# No Cry Sleep Solution Support Thread....



## prettypixels

Are any other mamas in the middle of trying the NCSS's tips to improve baby's sleep? Maybe we could discuss here what is working, what is not, etc... Personally I feel like every time I take one baby step forward, I take two big ones backwards! And I am *tired!* Anyone else?

My baby is 6.5 months old, and currently wakes about every hour at night. I have low milk supply, so she is bottle nursed over night, but I swear she eats just like a 100% breastfed baby!







I am doing the Pantley Pull Off, a bedtime routine, trying to make nights and naps obviously different, using a womb bear, and developing key words. I'm also planning to start using a crib for parts of the night, as her restless turning is keeping me up (and we have a king bed).

I've only been doing it for a few days so far, but some progress... two days ago she took a two hour nap without waking once!







Now if I could just have a few two/three hour stretches at night...

Anyways it would be nice if we could encourage each other.... if there are other moms out there doing the same thing???


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## bdoody11

I've just started reading it. If we decide to try a plan perhaps I'll join back in.

Good luck to all the mamas trying to get more sleep!


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## earthgirl

I've read that book about 3 times now. Currently, I am doing routines for nap and bedtime. You know, it's easier to post what I'm not doing. I'm not using a lovey, doing the Pantley pull-off or, putting DD down drowsy. I just can't bring myself to pull DD off my breast and there is no drowsy. My DD seems to be in 2 states: asleep or wide awake!







Personally, I don't have problems w/ her night wakings. My big problem is getting her to nap for more than 30 minutes. And more recently it's been taking a while to get her down for the night. That's actually what prompted me to read the book again. Anyway, I'm on day 4 of trying to stick to a routine and have seen ZERO improvement. I'll keep trying though. Hopefully I'll be back w/ a positive update!


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## prettypixels

Thanks for posting! I have read it like three times too, I keep rereading it hoping for more insight!







I don't mind waking a few times a night, but I do mind waking HOURLY and then having one solid hour of wide awake time at 2am. I'm just exhausted. She seems fine though!

I just noticed btw that the majority of her "test mommies" are reporting excellent results after a month or longer... so that's part of why I was thinking of a thread for support... it's a long time to keep at it!


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## Aletheia

Ok,weird, weird, weird.

I was going to go to bed early. It's 8:30 here right now. But I thought, no, I need to bolster myself against the crazy that is happening here right now as we are in the second week of trying to get 11 month old Gooby to sleep for longer than 2 hours at a time at night and not wake up to play for 2 or sometimes 3 hour stretches in the middle of the night. I thought, I'm going to get on MDC and post a support thread for folks working on breaking the nurse to sleep association. And what do you know? The thread is already up and running.

So.... I'm joining, and inviting others to join by sharing the following info.

*The Problem:* After 11 months of only getting an occasional 3 hour stretch of sleep, and the recent development of a) fighting bedtime and b) waking to play in the middle of the night, I am ANGRY. I am resentful of my child. I am snappy to my husband. I've even kicked the cat. I have been the very picture of patience until this last month, but I am pretty much always one yawn away from crazy. I should note too that we EC at night, and that what used to be considered a success is now a huge stumbling block: he wakes to pee, but only nurses to sleep. It's a wake, pee, eat, sleep, wake to pee again cycle.

*The Ideal: 2 months from now I would like....* I'd love to get at least 1 five hour stretch of uninterrupted sleep while lying next to my Gooby, who has not shed his body weight in tears to get to that point. That's all I want. Oh, and easier bedtimes and no bouncing, chattering elf pulling my hair at 2:30 a.m. Is that so much to ask?

*The Tactics:*

DH puts Gooby to bed, and handles any wakings until my bedtime. Unless the fussing is desperate, I try not to intervene. How we handle pottying at this time is still unclear.
So I'm trying to stick with full feedings at bedtime, 11, 3, and 6, upon waking. At 11 and 3 I hope to be able to feed him sitting up and then lie him down before he is out cold. Hahahaha. The reason we for the time being still have two feedings scheduled is... well, not a good one. I just have a hard time believing he can go that long without eating. I'm probably shooting myself in the foot.
Nightwakings in between these times are minimum boobed wakings; I try to do the Pantley pull off. Last night we did this for AN HOUR before I gave up, and then he was AWAKE AWAKE AWAKE.
If he does not settle with the Pantley pull off, I get up and walk him. Waking the workaday DH to walk him is a last resort, but comes in handy when I am so mad that I have to go throw rocks at the backyard.
I should add that we have a consistent early bedtime and routine, and naps are not usually a problem, though we may be starting to have only 1 nap a day.
So there it is, our plan. Comments? Suggestions?

I'm wishing you all out there luck tonight, and hoping for some for myself as well.


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## earthgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aletheia* 
Ok,weird, weird, weird.

[*]Nightwakings in between these times are minimum boobed wakings; I try to do the Pantley pull off. Last night we did this for AN HOUR before I gave up, and then he was AWAKE AWAKE AWAKE.[*] If he does not settle with the Pantley pull off, I get up and walk him. Waking the workaday DH to walk him is a last resort, but comes in handy when I am so mad that I have to go throw rocks at the backyard.

So there it is, our plan. Comments? Suggestions?

I'm wishing you all out there luck tonight, and hoping for some for myself as well.

nak
this is why i'm scared to do the pull-off. lately it's really hard to get dd down for the night. i can't imagine throwing in something that's going to make it worse, even if it's just temporary.

good luck to you!


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## nylecoj

I am also crazy tired and angry/resentful of pretty much all living beings at the moment.

We have an EXTREMELY consistent bedtime routine - down to the same three books in the same freaking order.

I am developing a routine (shorter, of course) for naps and I'm putting dd on a sort of schedule where we have quiet hours to encourage napping. She still wakes up from her naps after about 40 minutes but if I rock her or hold her quietly she'll fall back asleep for another 40 after about half an hour or so.

The other day she napped for over 200 minutes! (Oh yeah, I've created a sleep journal) Normally she naps for a total of 90 in a day.

Night time has not really changed at all except that now it takes her about 45 minutes to go down (even though she's showing obvious signs of being tired) instead of 15. She still wakes up anywhere between 5 and 6 times in a 10-12 hour period.

Oh yeah, she's 7 mos old and has been going through a ton developmentally in the past month, but she's never been a very easy sleeper. Getting closer to walking, so I hope once she's got that down she'll sleep. Please. PLEASE.

SUMMARY:
Wake up 6:30-ish
1st nap: 8:30-9:15
Rock/hold: 9:15-9:45
Sleep: 9:45-10:20

Repeat those steps between 1:00 and 3:00 pm.

Bedtime routine starts around 6:30 generally.
Read, rock, nurse, rock until 7 or 8 depending on the night.


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## Subliime

I'm so glad I found this thread. When I started our routine 10 days ago I saw immediate improvements. She seriously went from waking every 1-2 hrs to sleeping one 4-5 hr stretch plus a 3 hr stretch and then a 2 hr stretch every night for a few nights. Now that it's time to do another sleep journal it's back to every hour b/c of teething. Come on now. Anyways, I have been trying the PPO and it was working at first but not the past few nights. Does anyone know if teething is causing this?


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## snt88

I'm in a similar boat. And starting to feel VERY tired and VERY frustrated.

I used some NCSS tactics a while ago (successfuly), and I just ordered my own copy, instead of taking it out of the library for the 3rd time. I moved bedtime earlier and developed routines, and I sing the same bedtime song as a sleep cue. That seemed good for a while, but now my almost 8 month old is waking more and more at night, and not going to sleep in the evening.

I was starting the Pantley Pull-Off, but now that things have gotten so bad, I've stopped, I'm afraid we won't get any sleep at all! That being said, I start work one evening a week in the fall, and I don't know how dh will survive that one night a week if she doesn't have other ways to fall asleep by then. Aah! Don't know how to prioritize.

We also had moved from co-sleeping to dd sleeping in the crib, so that I could get some sleep, but now the only way she WILL sleep is in bed with me, which means I'm getting kicked, hair pulled, etc....all night long.

DD has also mastered the 40 minute nap, so I'm doing Pantley's method of staying really near by (in bed with her) and nursing her back to sleep as soon as she wakes up. It seems to work about half the time, and the second period of sleep is usually longer than 40 minutes.

Looking forward to seeing what other people are doing and hearing about roadblocks and successes.


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aletheia* 
Ok,weird, weird, weird.

I was going to go to bed early. It's 8:30 here right now. But I thought, no, I need to bolster myself against the crazy that is happening here right now as we are in the second week of trying to get 11 month old Gooby to sleep for longer than 2 hours at a time at night and not wake up to play for 2 or sometimes 3 hour stretches in the middle of the night. I thought, I'm going to get on MDC and post a support thread for folks working on breaking the nurse to sleep association. And what do you know? The thread is already up and running.

So.... I'm joining, and inviting others to join by sharing the following info.

*The Problem:* After 11 months of only getting an occasional 3 hour stretch of sleep, and the recent development of a) fighting bedtime and b) waking to play in the middle of the night, I am ANGRY. I am resentful of my child. I am snappy to my husband. I've even kicked the cat. I have been the very picture of patience until this last month, but I am pretty much always one yawn away from crazy. I should note too that we EC at night, and that what used to be considered a success is now a huge stumbling block: he wakes to pee, but only nurses to sleep. It's a wake, pee, eat, sleep, wake to pee again cycle.

*The Ideal: 2 months from now I would like....* I'd love to get at least 1 five hour stretch of uninterrupted sleep while lying next to my Gooby, who has not shed his body weight in tears to get to that point. That's all I want. Oh, and easier bedtimes and no bouncing, chattering elf pulling my hair at 2:30 a.m. Is that so much to ask?

*The Tactics:*

DH puts Gooby to bed, and handles any wakings until my bedtime. Unless the fussing is desperate, I try not to intervene. How we handle pottying at this time is still unclear.
So I'm trying to stick with full feedings at bedtime, 11, 3, and 6, upon waking. At 11 and 3 I hope to be able to feed him sitting up and then lie him down before he is out cold. Hahahaha. The reason we for the time being still have two feedings scheduled is... well, not a good one. I just have a hard time believing he can go that long without eating. I'm probably shooting myself in the foot.
Nightwakings in between these times are minimum boobed wakings; I try to do the Pantley pull off. Last night we did this for AN HOUR before I gave up, and then he was AWAKE AWAKE AWAKE.
If he does not settle with the Pantley pull off, I get up and walk him. Waking the workaday DH to walk him is a last resort, but comes in handy when I am so mad that I have to go throw rocks at the backyard.
I should add that we have a consistent early bedtime and routine, and naps are not usually a problem, though we may be starting to have only 1 nap a day.
So there it is, our plan. Comments? Suggestions?

I'm wishing you all out there luck tonight, and hoping for some for myself as well.

Maybe you could try scooting back on the PPO... ie: if you are now doing it when he is still a little awake, do it JUST after he's fallen asleep... or if your norm is to wait 5 min after he falls asleep, do it 4 min after he falls asleep... to make it a really gentle transition? Gradually work up to removing the nipple while his eyelids are still fluttering....?

The EC thing must be tough! I don't have any advice for that...

(Of course this is advice from a woman who hasn't had a five hour stretch of sleep in... I dunno how long... LOL so take with several grains of salt...)


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Subliime* 
I'm so glad I found this thread. When I started our routine 10 days ago I saw immediate improvements. She seriously went from waking every 1-2 hrs to sleeping one 4-5 hr stretch plus a 3 hr stretch and then a 2 hr stretch every night for a few nights. Now that it's time to do another sleep journal it's back to every hour b/c of teething. Come on now. Anyways, I have been trying the PPO and it was working at first but not the past few nights. Does anyone know if teething is causing this?

I don't know. My baby is teething, but her two bottom teeth have already come through. I can't feel any coming in anywhere else though I know that doesn't mean they aren't there. She is still pulling her ears and shrugging her shoulders, so I know she's feeling some pain. (No ear infection, confirmed by doc.) I wish I knew when the teething eases up a little!!!!


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## Elipsisqueen

Teething can still interfere with my 19 month old's sleep patterns (like last night, waking every hour/2). It's really hard on some kids.


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## Elipsisqueen

Lately I"ve had some luck with my husband getting DS to sleep. He lies down with him, and I really think DS is sleeping longer. Just thought I'd share that...
ALso, lately I have given my 19 month old a bottle of water when he wakes at like 1 and 3, and he takes a little sip, gets frustrated and goes back to sleep. I think the bottle of water is helping...


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## TridentineFan

I'm so glad to find this thread! I just read Pantley's book for the third time and am working on some things. I'm simply relieved to hear of other mamas who are as frustrated and angry and resentful as me. I feel crazy sometimes, but I've gone nearly eight months usually waking hourly . . . and that's liable to make anybody bonkers!







:


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## nylecoj

The Pantley Pull Off method works well for us at naptime, but not so much for bedtime. The past few days we've been out of town and DH has come in to put DD down after I've read, rocked, and nursed and he's been far more successful at it than I. With me she just sucks and sucks and sucks and sucks and sucks and sucks and sucks and sucks which makes me a little crazy.


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## bellymama

i read it when ds was a tiny newborn. i like the fact that its a book that doesn't advocate cio and that it somewhat encourages co-sleeping (although the ridiculous chapter on making your bed safe seemed like overkill...duuuuuh...) but i'll be honest, i just think any book that tells you how to raise your kid is faulty, because your kid just isn't going to fit the description...yk? and then i think mama's go crazy because they are like, i followed all the directions and my dc is still not doing it...and then you get even more obsessed with whatever aspect of childrearing that particular book focused on, in this case, sleep training...yes, i said it. i think the pantley theory is gentle sleep training, but sleep training nonetheless....
imho...you might do better just taking it day by day, because your baby is going to change every day...and i don't think babies have sleep issues...they are doing what they are hardwired to do...which, unfortunatly for us very very tired mamas (i woke up at 5 am today







: after a wiggly night!)isn't always sleeping at the same time we do







...
anyway, if the book is working for you, then go for it! but if its not, don't think its because you aren't doing it right, yk? i think that just makes whatever problems you are having worse...
plus i just found that book to be to much about log keeping...you are already sleep deprived,right?why waste more time you could be sleeping on writing down stuff about your babies sleep pattern.
from my limited experience with my little sister, my baby and what my girlfriends babies have done, this is the rule: as soon as you got baby figured out...they change on ya again...sneaky little buggers







.
anyway...i really hope you all are getting rest...nothing is worse then mamahood on an empty tank!


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i read it when ds was a tiny newborn. i like the fact that its a book that doesn't advocate cio and that it somewhat encourages co-sleeping (although the ridiculous chapter on making your bed safe seemed like overkill...duuuuuh...) but i'll be honest, i just think any book that tells you how to raise your kid is faulty, because your kid just isn't going to fit the description...yk? and then i think mama's go crazy because they are like, i followed all the directions and my dc is still not doing it...and then you get even more obsessed with whatever aspect of childrearing that particular book focused on, in this case, sleep training...yes, i said it. i think the pantley theory is gentle sleep training, but sleep training nonetheless....
imho...you might do better just taking it day by day, because your baby is going to change every day...and i don't think babies have sleep issues...they are doing what they are hardwired to do...which, unfortunatly for us very very tired mamas (i woke up at 5 am today







: after a wiggly night!)isn't always sleeping at the same time we do







...
anyway, if the book is working for you, then go for it! but if its not, don't think its because you aren't doing it right, yk? i think that just makes whatever problems you are having worse...
plus i just found that book to be to much about log keeping...you are already sleep deprived,right?why waste more time you could be sleeping on writing down stuff about your babies sleep pattern.
from my limited experience with my little sister, my baby and what my girlfriends babies have done, this is the rule: as soon as you got baby figured out...they change on ya again...sneaky little buggers







.
anyway...i really hope you all are getting rest...nothing is worse then mamahood on an empty tank!

Call it what you will... if it helps, I'll be grateful. I'm so tired, and I know I am one of many mamas who just don't function well on no sleep. I'll be a better mama for her if we can start having a few long stretches of sleep at night.

Regarding the logs, I don't personally do them, but that is why I wanted a thread... a more casual way to keep up with progress. But even if you do do them, you're only supposed to do it every ten days, which doesn't seem too big a deal. If you want to.

Of course you have to take it and adapt it to fit your own child because every child is different... I think that goes without saying, personally.


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## prettypixels

We've had a few successes... one nap this week for TWO HOURS where she did not wake up wanting to eat at all, or need any help. Just slept, for two blessed hours.

But only one nap.

The night before last she slept for *four* hours from 2am to 6am which is like a miracle... but we earned it the hard way with a solid hour of wide awake, crying, fussing baby from 1-2am. I still don't know why she was crying... we offered bottle, nursing, cuddling, hugging... she was just upset. I guess it tired her out! I am hoping for some more 4 hour stretches MINUS the crying for an hour... yikes!

One thing I've noticed since I both bottlenurse and nurse at the breast is that it is much easier to do the PPO with the bottle... it's harder to get her to let go of the breast and she needs to be a little closer to *totally asleep* for me to do that. I know that doesn't help much... but for you mamas working on that maybe just starting a little further down the sleep scale might help.


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## prettypixels

BTW for those mamas whose babies wake hourly or every two hours... when your baby wakes are they just kind of nursing for comfort back to sleep or are they actually eating? I have the (dis)advantage of seeing how much my baby is eating at night... she is taking in about 18 oz overnight! So she really is hungry. I think our success hinges on getting her to eat more during the day, vs. all night long. Any thoughts?


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## bellymama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Call it what you will... if it helps, I'll be grateful. I'm so tired, and I know I am one of many mamas who just don't function well on no sleep. I'll be a better mama for her if we can start having a few long stretches of sleep at night.

Regarding the logs, I don't personally do them, but that is why I wanted a thread... a more casual way to keep up with progress. But even if you do do them, you're only supposed to do it every ten days, which doesn't seem too big a deal. If you want to.

Of course you have to take it and adapt it to fit your own child because every child is different... I think that goes without saying, personally.

i hope i didn't offend, i just wanted to share my experiences...like i said in my post, whatever works for you...go for it!!! i have just seen a lot of posts where women have read this book, or others and it isn't working and they are feeling even worse than before...i hope it works for you, because you definitely need your sleep! good luck!
a great book i read that changed a lot of my feelings on family bed and nighttime parenting was "three in a bed" by deborah jackson...loved it. not really a how to get baby to sleep book, but just a great insightful book. it made me feel so much better about a lot of things!
i wish all of you mama's the best of luck!!!!
again, i apologize if i sounded judgmental...so not my intention AT ALL!!!


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i read it when ds was a tiny newborn. i like the fact that its a book that doesn't advocate cio and that it somewhat encourages co-sleeping (although the ridiculous chapter on making your bed safe seemed like overkill...duuuuuh...) but i'll be honest, i just think any book that tells you how to raise your kid is faulty, because your kid just isn't going to fit the description...yk? and then i think mama's go crazy because they are like, i followed all the directions and my dc is still not doing it...and then you get even more obsessed with whatever aspect of childrearing that particular book focused on, in this case, sleep training...yes, i said it. i think the pantley theory is gentle sleep training, but sleep training nonetheless....
imho...you might do better just taking it day by day, because your baby is going to change every day...and i don't think babies have sleep issues...they are doing what they are hardwired to do...which, unfortunatly for us very very tired mamas (i woke up at 5 am today







: after a wiggly night!)isn't always sleeping at the same time we do







...
anyway, if the book is working for you, then go for it! but if its not, don't think its because you aren't doing it right, yk? i think that just makes whatever problems you are having worse...
plus i just found that book to be to much about log keeping...you are already sleep deprived,right?why waste more time you could be sleeping on writing down stuff about your babies sleep pattern.
from my limited experience with my little sister, my baby and what my girlfriends babies have done, this is the rule: as soon as you got baby figured out...they change on ya again...sneaky little buggers







.
anyway...i really hope you all are getting rest...nothing is worse then mamahood on an empty tank!

bellymama, I had the EXACT same experience as you did with the book.


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## earthgirl

It's probably best to just do a time line of sorts.

*5:30* Start bedtime routine, which goes quite well
*6:15* In rocking chair nursing, which is our last "step"
*6:35* DD is OUT!








*7:20* DD is awake. (This is typical and up until recently has been our biggest sleep issue. She has to be put back to sleep 2-3 times before she settles well for the night.) I go in and get her back to sleep pretty quickly.
*7:35* DD is awake. I go in and get her back to sleep again.
*8:15* DD is awake. DH goes in and gets her back to sleep pretty quickly.
*8:30* DD is awake. DH goes in, this time for 30 minutes.
*9:00* DD is sleeping.
*9:10* Our neighbor starts yelling for their dog, DD is awake. I get frustrated and decide I'll just go to bed b/c I'm tired of messing w/ it. I go in and nurse, rock, etc.
*9:55* DD is *FINALLY* asleep.
*10:15* I think "Wow. She really is so sweet", and gently stroke her little forehead. *BAD IDEA!* DD is awake. We nurse, cuddle, etc.
*10:30* DD decides to do a little Jr. Rockettes performance. She's in love w/ herself and applauds wildly. It was so good, she decides we need to see a few encore performances.
*10:55* DD is *STILL* awake. I move myself at an angle so she can't roll off the bed and decide I'm going to sleep. DH is already in Z town.







:
*11:50* I wake up and realize DD has somehow managed to fall asleep.
*2:25* I hear a noise outside and wake up DH to see what it is. There is a guy next door on top of a trash can peeking in our neighbors' window. He calls 911. DD wakes up. We cuddle and nurse while I'm a teeny bit terrified.
*3:30* DD is asleep.
*5:30* DD is up for the day as if she's had the best nights sleep of her life!

Please tell me it's going to get better.

Oh and the house next door was not being robbed.


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## timneh_mom

Reluctantly, I pulled out my copy of this book again and took a look at it last night. This was after DD woke up a 100,000 times before she actually went "down" for the night at around 11:45!







:

Anyway I think she is chronically sleep deprived. I did find today that around 45 min into her nap she wants to wake up (coming up into lighter sleep = vulnerable to waking). I made sure I was in bed with her at that point and got her back to sleep, now we are at about 1 1/2 hours of napping. Supposedly she will learn to not wake by herself after about a week of me helping (yeah, we'll see). I am going to put her to bed WAY early tonight and see what happens. Both our kids need to be in bed LONG before they are (*I* need to be in bed *LONG* before they are!!!) so maybe we can get to an earlier bedtime soon. I would happily get up early but NOT if they are not sleeping until 11 pm!!!

She also thinks she is up for the day around 5:30 or 6 am, even though she JUST went to sleep around 12 am...







:

Earthgirl, I sure hope, for both our sakes, that it gets better. She is, seriously, making me NOT want more kids. I can't handle this a third time!!!

Oh, and I'm thinking she might have a bit of reflux, along with the teething. I'm going to try a few things that I haven't tried before and see what happens.


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## nylecoj

It might be sleep training, bellymama, but after having dd, I do believe that some kids need to be trained on how to sleep. She's wired in all the time and is chronically overtired. She needs to be trained on how to relax and unwind so that she can fall asleep comfortably, and while I don't think any book has all the answers I do think some guidelines really help. Having a sleep journal was a way for dh and I to see that dd was really sleep deprived.

Question for the rest of you. If your child is mobile and nap in their crib, what do you do to anticipate their needs and help them go right back to sleep during naptime.

We're still doing what we can while out of town and I've noticed that her body is more attuned to napping at specific times instead of 20-30 min cat naps all day. (Or, a chronically cranky baby - that's what really started this whole thing)


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
It's probably best to just do a time line of sorts.

*5:30* Start bedtime routine, which goes quite well
*6:15* In rocking chair nursing, which is our last "step"
*6:35* DD is OUT!








*7:20* DD is awake. (This is typical and up until recently has been our biggest sleep issue. She has to be put back to sleep 2-3 times before she settles well for the night.) I go in and get her back to sleep pretty quickly.
*7:35* DD is awake. I go in and get her back to sleep again.
*8:15* DD is awake. DH goes in and gets her back to sleep pretty quickly.
*8:30* DD is awake. DH goes in, this time for 30 minutes.
*9:00* DD is sleeping.
*9:10* Our neighbor starts yelling for their dog, DD is awake. I get frustrated and decide I'll just go to bed b/c I'm tired of messing w/ it. I go in and nurse, rock, etc.
*9:55* DD is *FINALLY* asleep.
*10:15* I think "Wow. She really is so sweet", and gently stroke her little forehead. *BAD IDEA!* DD is awake. We nurse, cuddle, etc.
*10:30* DD decides to do a little Jr. Rockettes performance. She's in love w/ herself and applauds wildly. It was so good, she decides we need to see a few encore performances.
*10:55* DD is *STILL* awake. I move myself at an angle so she can't roll off the bed and decide I'm going to sleep. DH is already in Z town.







:
*11:50* I wake up and realize DD has somehow managed to fall asleep.
*2:25* I hear a noise outside and wake up DH to see what it is. There is a guy next door on top of a trash can peeking in our neighbors' window. He calls 911. DD wakes up. We cuddle and nurse while I'm a teeny bit terrified.
*3:30* DD is asleep.
*5:30* DD is up for the day as if she's had the best nights sleep of her life!

Please tell me it's going to get better.

Oh and the house next door was not being robbed.









: that's a rough night!

Last night was the first in three that I didn't have a wide awake baby in the middle of the night for a solid hour... so I guess that's good... but she was up just about every hour again. I feel like I take one step forward and ten back. Which is why I started this thread, because I surely do need some support and hope that it is going to get better!


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## rachellanigh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nylecoj* 
SUMMARY:
Wake up 6:30-ish
1st nap: 8:30-9:15
Rock/hold: 9:15-9:45
Sleep: 9:45-10:20

Repeat those steps between 1:00 and 3:00 pm.

Bedtime routine starts around 6:30 generally.
Read, rock, nurse, rock until 7 or 8 depending on the night.

You were saying that she's not staying down for her first nap...could you try to postpone the first nap by 15 mins and see what happens? I think I remember Pantley talking about that. Good luck! I hope my baby is a good sleeper. (As good as my first!)


----------



## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachellanigh* 
You were saying that she's not staying down for her first nap...could you try to postpone the first nap by 15 mins and see what happens? I think I remember Pantley talking about that. Good luck! I hope my baby is a good sleeper. (As good as my first!)

Hmm. I have tried that, but never consistently because usually it just devolves into her becoming more tired and more cranky.

Trip to San Diego was HARD, but somehow manageable.


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## spedel

:

Subbing. Might be needing this soon...


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## timneh_mom

CRAP!! Had a whole thing typed out and Firefox crashed! BAD!!!

Anyway I think getting her to bed EARLY and making sure each nap is at LEAST an hour long is helping... she was up for a while at 10:30 last night thinking it was time to get up but after some dancing and rocking and nursing, we got her back down again. If she wakes up from a nap and it hasn't been an hour, I get her back down and she usually sleeps another good chunk of time. Last night she went to bed at 7:30!! (Usually it's been 11:30!!) But, don't start celebrating yet... I still didn't get to bed til midnight because she woke up right before I started getting ready for bed and it took a long time to get her back down. She woke to nurse every 2-3 hours all night but at least went back to sleep afterwards. She was up for the day around 7-8 am.

I've been trying really hard to get DS to bed earlier too.

I love DH but he gets home from work late (sometimes not til almost 7 pm!) but the kids NEED earlier bedtimes... so, I'm sorry DH... if baby is in the tub when you get home, that's life... I just don't have the steam to plow through the days here alone (sometimes for 11 hours!) when they aren't sleeping til 11 or 11:30...


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## earthgirl

I find it interesting how many of us have LOs that take short naps. Anyone had any luck getting your babe to nap longer using any of Pantley's methods? The nursing them back to sleep thing hardly ever works for me. I'd say on average it might work about 2x a week and I've been trying it for a LONG time!


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
I find it interesting how many of us have LOs that take short naps. Anyone had any luck getting your babe to nap longer using any of Pantley's methods? The nursing them back to sleep thing hardly ever works for me. I'd say on average it might work about 2x a week and I've been trying it for a LONG time!

Can someone post some of her ideas? I keep getting the book from the library but don't have it handy. (Yes, I know, I need to get out and buy it)

I have been trying to be very deliberate with noise and a schedule so that when she wakes up after 30-40 mins, I take her out into the rocker and sit and rock and stroke her hair. I do very little talking. Sometimes I nurse, depends on how upset she gets. That usually works but it takes about 30-45 mins.

I've also been making sure the house is quiet for about a half an hour before her nap. This means no dishwasher, laundry, tv or stereo.


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## timneh_mom

My DD seems to wake from naps about 45 minutes after she falls asleep. Pantley says that's when an infant normally comes up into lighter sleep and is vulnerable to waking. If I can catch her right before or right as she starts to stir, I can get her back to sleep just by laying a hand on her or patting. If I catch her right away, it takes a few minutes, if not, it can take 20 minutes. If she wakes up and is crabby, I will work with her til she's asleep again. Rested people don't wake up crabby. (Hmmm. That's probably why I wake up crabby!)

I thought I read in my fog that Pantley said after about a week of helping them through the light sleep part, they will learn to sleep through it. We'll see. (I'm doubtful of the "after a week of this" part but it seems harmless so I'll give it a try.) I really do think some of our babies need to be taught how to sleep, or at least require a great deal of help.

As you can see I'm pretty skeptical of this whole thing but I do agree with Pantley on one thing... both my kids are chronically overtired.


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## nylecoj

My kid is chronically overtired too. I did read that about being there for the light sleep part. I suppose I should try it again - can't hurt. She starts thrashing about immediately when she wakes up so I sort of have to restrain her (she can kick out of a ninja swaddle, I swear) so she won't completely wake herself.


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## earthgirl

Yeah, the nap help in that book is pretty lacking. That's why you don't remember it!







Basically, the nursing or patting back before they come out of light sleep is it. Oh, and she says to have a nap routine that's completely different from the bedtime routine. My DD naps for only 30 minutes, precisely. I have tried multiple times to keep her from waking from light sleep and it DOES NOT WORK. I do keep trying, though. Still, it's pretty frustrating.


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## prettypixels

My baby *usually* takes a two hour nap in the morning and a 1 hr to 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Or, if her morning nap is messed up (I'm guilty! I sometimes go to mama events that almost always take place during her naptime...), she'll usually take a longer nap.

*usually*....

Today, her morning nap was messed up, then her afternoon nap, and now we're on her second afternoon nap.







:

So far helping her back to sleep when she wakes (approx. every 45 minutes, coinciding with Pantley's description of the duration of a sleep cycle!) quickly does help her go back to sleep, but I'm not seeing TOO much luck with getting her to sleep LONGER. Then again we have had a few 3/4 hour stretches this week which is a first!

BUT... we've also had her waking up... one night at 2 am, one night at 3 am, last night at 11 am (which was better, as I was not yet asleep so I could incorporate this into my own going to bed), and she is WIDE AWAKE. I think we're seeing our first temper tantrums as she gets *mad* that we won't get up and play with her and she just screams! This is in arms, right next to us in bed. She stops immediately if I lift her up where she can see herself in the mirror and smiles, so I know she just wants to play. Crazy girl. After about an hour of rolling around, screaming, and smiling at herself in the mirror she is giving us 3/4 hours.

So now I just need to eliminate that crazy hour!!! LOL!


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## timneh_mom

We have the "midnight crazies" here too, although the time varies... and she does cry a lot when we are trying to help her to sleep... it must sound like we are a CIO house although we never do that! But I've already noticed that she is crying a whole lot less now that we making sure she gets more sleep... maybe she was crabby from not enough sleep.


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nylecoj* 
Can someone post some of her ideas? I keep getting the book from the library but don't have it handy. (Yes, I know, I need to get out and buy it)

I have been trying to be very deliberate with noise and a schedule so that when she wakes up after 30-40 mins, I take her out into the rocker and sit and rock and stroke her hair. I do very little talking. Sometimes I nurse, depends on how upset she gets. That usually works but it takes about 30-45 mins.

I've also been making sure the house is quiet for about a half an hour before her nap. This means no dishwasher, laundry, tv or stereo.

*stable routine
*quiet routine in the few hours before bedtime (I'm working on this one)
*Pantley Pull Off... allow baby to nurse until eyelids fluttering, then remove nipple... press chin to close mouth. If baby roots and fusses nurse, and repeat until baby falls asleep.

Those are a few of the main ideas I'm seeing tossed around here... there are lots more, especially some really cute ideas for older babies... like making a bedtime book with pictures of your babe showing them from birth to present and ending with something like "Baby is a big boy now, and sleeps all night long!" Really intended for I guess 2 year olds and older... but so cute. I wanna do it but I know my baby wouldn't *get* it...


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## prettypixels

Re: naps, she really says just do whatever you have to, to get the baby to nap... and focus on nighttime sleep first. Working on the idea that bad naps = bad night sleep, and parents need that night sleep most of all....


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Re: naps, she really says just do whatever you have to, to get the baby to nap... and focus on nighttime sleep first. Working on the idea that bad naps = bad night sleep, and parents need that night sleep most of all....

Hmmm. But don't bad naps also equal bad night sleep? I just figured it was easier to help in the nap department in the short term, while the night time stuff takes a bit longer?


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## strawberryfields08

I am just getting ready to buy this book. I am in desperate need of a change. DD is 17 mo and wakes every 1-2 hours at night, and it takes forever for her to fall asleep. It seems like everything we try makes her mad and I need more sleep as I am 5 mo pg. Anyway I am frustrated with her and with everything and I am looking for some help. Does anyone know if I should get the no cry sleep solution or the no cry sleep solution for toddlers. She is still nursing to sleep and pretty much all night so I am not sure which book would help me the most. or if I should just get both. Thanks


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *strawberryfields08* 
I am just getting ready to buy this book. I am in desperate need of a change. DD is 17 mo and wakes every 1-2 hours at night, and it takes forever for her to fall asleep. It seems like everything we try makes her mad and I need more sleep as I am 5 mo pg. Anyway I am frustrated with her and with everything and I am looking for some help. Does anyone know if I should get the no cry sleep solution or the no cry sleep solution for toddlers. She is still nursing to sleep and pretty much all night so I am not sure which book would help me the most. or if I should just get both. Thanks

I have only read the one for toddlers and it did deal with nursing and that sort of thing. I had a 3 mo old at the time and found most of the situations were geared towards older kids.

Not sure if that helps.


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## Aletheia

*Naps:* At the time when his 2-a-day nap schedule began to emerge (around 5 to 6 months) I really had to work on helping him. I almost forgot how much work it was! It sucked, but he's a *great* napper now. I can pretty much count on 1.5 hours every time he goes down.

The biggie was that for THREE WEEKS I made sure NOTHING interfered with naptime, and moreover, I took every nap with him. Yep. Every one. I think this was the biggest thing in helping him stay asleep longer.

What I did was pick a 5 minute piece of music to dance to as our naptime routine. If he was still awake at the end of that, I'd nurse him. We'd sleep, and then if he began to wake, I'd immediately get him on the breast again. If he woke up too much for that to work, I'd get up and dance him again. It didn't always work, but most times it did.

Eventually, I could just listen for him on the monitor and rush in there to "re-boob" him if he woke at 45 minutes.

And now, as we are transitioning to 1 nap and therefore his morning nap is sometimes only 45 minutes, it is really easy to tell if he is ready to get up or just woke up by accident. He's grumpy if he still needs more sleep.

The transitioning to one nap has been hard.


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nylecoj* 
Hmmm. But don't bad naps also equal bad night sleep? I just figured it was easier to help in the nap department in the short term, while the night time stuff takes a bit longer?

Unless I misunderstood, what she is basically saying is... do whatever you have to, to get good naps. So if that means 100% nursing down, or rocking, or whatever... do that to get a good nap. So she is hoping for good naps there, while you work on changing habits during the night sleep.


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## Happily Blessed

I am in the process of reading the book, and reading all these posts. I got through 1/2 of the first page but I think this will be an awesome thread for me to read!

So, since I have not finished the book yet, what exactly is the PPO? And I am trying to have a schedule, but I work full time. Grandma has Yahootie on Monday, Daddy has him Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. We only have a babysitter on Wednesdays. So, any suggestions on how to make sure that all my caretakers do things pretty much the same way? My Mom is on board with most all so it will be up to Daddy and Kristy to help.

laural


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## maxsmum

I'm in , ready to order the book now (yawn)... my DS is 12 mos. - for those of you who have read it, which would be more appropriate the baby or toddler edition?


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## nylecoj

Ugh.

I am so frustrated right now.

Baby had three naps today - she's still a little out of whack from our San Diego trip this past weekend. Her last nap was too short (~30 mins) and she was cranky the rest of the evening.

She took a long time to get to bed - but went down around 7:40. (Took nearly 40 minutes of rocking, nursing, etc.)

Woke up at 8:10 while dh and I were walking the dog. My dad said he'd watch her which apparently involved letting her CIO in her swing in front of him. WTF? Little thing was hysterical when we got to her 10 minutes later.

I nursed. And nursed, and rocked, and nursed some more. She is making both nipples very sore and raw because she won't stop sucking. She's also got some bad gas lately - not sure what's behind that. So she tooted and sucked me raw until I could no longer tolerate it. I spent about 40 minutes nursing her.

Now DH has her and she's still awake and crying, but completely exhausted. It's been over an hour and I am thinking tonight will not be a good night of sleep.

I'm frustrated and very anxious as I start work in a week and can't imagine functioning in a job on these small chunks of sleep every night.

Argh.


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## timneh_mom

nylecoj....







!!! We had an awful night last night too, I don't even want to talk about it because I don't want to discourage anyone.







DD seemed sleepy right after 7 so she had her tubby and was asleep shortly after that. Then about 30-40 minutes later she thought she was up FOR THE DAY!!! All in all, we both worked with her for FIVE HOURS and finally at 12:30 AM I put her in the pack and play and told her to go play because I was going to bed. Of course she didn't like that and DH went in and got her and he slept with her in the chair.







What the F do you do when you try E V E R Y T H I N G and they will NOT SLEEP?????







:


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## JenLiz

hey all...PPO worked great for us. On trick i used from her book that sometimes works better than PPO and accomplishes the same thing is make it a lot of work for them to keep sucking on the nipple...like scooch away a little, or turn to your back a bit...then, dd realizes it more work to suck than just pull away and go to sleep. After a couple nights of this she eats, pulls away and falls asleep. During the transistion it was too cute cuz she'd pull away like 10 times and come back, pull away, come back, etc. b/c i think she was unsure she could really do it. Now her confidence is up and she knows she can. Gotta run, she's ready for her morning nap, but I'll post more later about what else we did to make the wakings (every two hours) at night better and now we enjoy 4-5 hour blocks till 4 AM, then it's hourly till 7.


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## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom* 
All in all, we both worked with her for FIVE HOURS and finally at 12:30 AM I put her in the pack and play and told her to go play because I was going to bed. Of course she didn't like that and DH went in and got her and he slept with her in the chair.







What the F do you do when you try E V E R Y T H I N G and they will NOT SLEEP?????







:


Oh gosh, that sounds rough. I've had nights like that and something clicked one night - I decided to join her rather than fight the sleep thing (yes, even at 4 AM ...) First off, i still swaddle dd, and that makes a world of difference. She comes out in the night and I don't reswaddle, it's just for relaxing her at bedtime. So, for me, if after 20 minutes of trying and she's not looking like she's ready, I'll first switch sides of nursing (strangly, sometimes this works), if it doesn't work, i'll get up and take her into her room where the toys are and play -- tummy time, scooching, etc. (she's 6 mo old). Then, the second she starts getting fussy I swaddle her tightly, take her to the hair dryer and bouncy ball (part of our bedtime routine), do that for 5 minutes, and nurse her down...and nevermind the PPO, etc. Just getting her down at that point is more important, obviously. Amazingly, after doing this a few times we haven't had a situation like that in months.


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## earthgirl

Sorry for the bad nights, mamas. We had a pretty bad one, too. No advice, just wanted to commiserate.


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenLiz* 
hey all...PPO worked great for us. On trick i used from her book that sometimes works better than PPO and accomplishes the same thing is make it a lot of work for them to keep sucking on the nipple...like scooch away a little, or turn to your back a bit...

What do you do when this just results in making your baby wake up more fully?


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## nylecoj

Last night Dh tried to take care of dd for most of the night and it actually worked pretty well. She ate a lot less and woke up less.

Of course, she stayed up a lot later too, so who knows.


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## gwynthfair

Yay! So glad for this thread! So sick of the "just be glad to spend that time with your baby" advice.









I'm still reading the book, but here's what I'm doing:

*Problem:*
DD slept through the night until about 4 months at which point she starting waking more and more and MORE. She goes to sleep around 9 p.m. and I go at midnight. I would like her to sleep for those 3 hours straight in her crib, so I can do things that NEED to get done. (Not cleaning the toilet for 2 years is just not an option for me.) Beyond that, I'm pretty flexible because we co-sleep after I go to bed, but obviously the less nightwaking the better for everyone.

*Routine:* (beginning at about 7:30 p.m.)
1. Eat Dinner
2. Bathtime
3. Walk 1.5 miles in Mei Tai
4. Immediately upstairs and nurse almost to sleep.
5. Pop paci in and sing "it's okay to go to sleep, cause mommy & daddy are here. little baby go to sleep....etc. etc." ad nauseum

So far I've noticed that sticking to this routine makes going to sleep MUCH faster.

We also have had some napping problems on the weekends. DD is at daycare during the week and naps pretty good. However on the weekends she has been napping for only 30 minutes at a time, and waking up CLEARLY needing more sleep, and then being crabby when we try to do activities. This past weekend, I made sure to start the nap routine (basically just nursing in bed) at the FIRST signs of tiredness, and miraculously she slept better this weekend...not sure why.

ETA: We also have started having daddy do the nighttime parenting a lot more during the time before I go to bed, because he likes to just lay and read his book anyway, he just brings her to bed. So far it's working okay, except that last night he fell asleep before she woke up and then didn't hear her crying on the monitor. So annoying.


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## prettypixels

Aletheia, I *love* the idea of the 5 minute music dance. I am going to try that for naps, I don't really have a good nap routine right now. I think my baby is an ok napper which is to be expected as I have not been really honoring her nap schedule all the time. *sigh* Mama has to get out sometimes! But I am working on it.

Laural, will they do what you ask them to? Maybe you could write out your baby's nap schedule in a colorful way you can tack up somewhere easy for them to see...?

Maxsmum, I'm not sure, re: baby vs. toddler... did you read the reviews on Amazon? That might give some insight...

Nylecoj, ugh I am sorry you're having a rough time. And so sorry about the CIO, but glad you were there to get her! Yikes! That would make me craaaazy! I know diet sensitivities are rare in breastfed babies but have you changed anything in your diet lately? Maybe it's as simple as her reacting to dairy or something. How old is your little one? BTW did you try doing the PPO after your baby was closer to being totally asleep? Of course I have no idea how you are doing it, but I'd try very gently... like wait until baby is sleeping peacefully, remove nipple gently, but leave it RIGHT THERE in front of his face, so if he roots it is RIGHT THERE and he doesn't have to look for it... to prevent waking up more. I don't know, that is just what I am thinking. Of course maybe the PPO just won't work for you... every baby is different!

JenLiz that is a great idea about making it harder to nurse!

Liz...







: I am sorry. It is so frustrating. I have had many a night where I just tell my husband to take her and I need to go cool off. Do you have some Rescue Remedy? Sounds like a RR night. I have been taking it lately at night before I go to bed to ensure I'm a little more mellow and able to deal with things. I don't know what to do at a time like that. Honestly I might have just gotten up with her. I get too frustrated when I try to make her sleep and try to make her sleep... at some point I just have to give up and try again later. I know that's not a good answer though... ETA the other thing I have done when she just won't go back to sleep is put her on my back in the mei tai and go vaccuum, sweep, bounce on the bouncy ball... though sometimes that is really frustrating for me too, I'm so tired and then to have to get all active to get her to sleep. But she will usually go to sleep in the mei tai and is usually *happy* in there in the meanwhile, so sometimes that is what I do. One night I was bouncing her down on the ball with her on my back and I swear, she had woken up SPECIFICALLY FOR ME to do that. She fussed and fussed until I put her on my back. I wondered if I didn't have a MT, what would she have wanted in that moment?







:

We actually did a little bit better last night. No wake up in the middle of the night for an hour! Slept from about 2-5:30 which is FANTASTIC. She is still waking every 45 min./half hour in the time before I come to bed with her... arghhhh... baby steps. I keep trying to remind myself that this is a process and takes time. I just don't get why they sleep so well until about 4.5 months and then all of a sudden it goes crazy! I guess it is just so much going on developmentally at once...


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## timneh_mom

Last night went better for us, thankfully!!

I had a meeting in the evening so by the time we got home, it was after 9 pm. (So much for the early bedtime!) I got her in the bath and nursed her in the chair in the living room. Her mouth was really hurting her so she got some teething medicine and within 10 minutes fell sound asleep. I continued to watch TV until she stirred 45 minutes later, and at that point I held and rocked her until she was back to sleep. It was after that when I moved her. She stayed asleep til she woke to nurse at 2:30 am!!! So that was over 4 hours if you don't count the 45 minute wake up!

She woke two more times to nurse in the night, she had one other stretch of maybe 3.5 hours of sleep. THANK GOD I got a good night sleep too!! I understand what Pantley says about early bedtimes but I wonder if some kids are just NOT wired to go to sleep at 7 pm??

I want to add that I live in Michigan and it is light really late, the sun finally is setting after 9 pm.

Maybe I should watch my kid and not the clock? (Like we always say for breastfeeding, etc,)


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Nylecoj, ugh I am sorry you're having a rough time. And so sorry about the CIO, but glad you were there to get her! Yikes! That would make me craaaazy! I know diet sensitivities are rare in breastfed babies but have you changed anything in your diet lately? Maybe it's as simple as her reacting to dairy or something. How old is your little one? BTW did you try doing the PPO after your baby was closer to being totally asleep? Of course I have no idea how you are doing it, but I'd try very gently... like wait until baby is sleeping peacefully, remove nipple gently, but leave it RIGHT THERE in front of his face, so if he roots it is RIGHT THERE and he doesn't have to look for it... to prevent waking up more. I don't know, that is just what I am thinking. Of course maybe the PPO just won't work for you... every baby is different!

Couple of things today. First, I eat my words about that stupid sleep journal. Belly Mama was right and I jumped all over her.







I am not myself lately. Anyway, keeping that journal has been making me even more frustrated when things don't work out.

PPO works better when she initiates and although I've been trying my success is about 50%. I'm trying to make nurse-sleeping uncomfortable unless we are in bed together.

As far as diet goes, no, the only thing I have done recently is try to eliminate dairy from my diet which should be making her happier, not more upset. Heh.

Yesterday her naps were wonky and she was up from about 8:15-8:45 or so. Then again from 2:45 - 4:00am. I fell asleep rocking her and came back to bed around 4:30.

The good news was that once I got my lazy butt up to go rock her, she immediately calmed down and started to get drowsy. Also, today when I put her down for her nap she started yawning while I was reading her our nap
time book.


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## gwynthfair

One thing I did recently was to refuse to let naptime be done with after only 30 minutes. It took 45 minutes to put her back to sleep, but she slept for an hour and then for 2 hours for her next nap! A miracle. I think it's true, sleep begets sleep.


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## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwynthfair* 
One thing I did recently was to refuse to let naptime be done with after only 30 minutes. It took 45 minutes to put her back to sleep, but she slept for an hour and then for 2 hours for her next nap! A miracle. I think it's true, sleep begets sleep.

I do the same thing...since dd was 12 weeks I really concentrated on extending naps, now she can nap 2 hours, typically 1. 5 though...with or without me in bed. It does take a little extra effort, either soothing or bfing them back to sleep, but in the long run it's helped.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nylecoj* 
What do you do when this just results in making your baby wake up more fully?

Perhaps wait a little longer to do it, till she's more drowsy? The timing takes a bit to perfect, but once you do, it shouldn't wake dc up...fingers crossed!!!!! Good luck!

After doing the PPO AND phase one of dr. jay gordon's plan ( http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp )for a few weeks now DD is falling asleep without the nipple either by me taking her off, or much to my surprise she PULLS OFF HER SELF (yippi!!!) and gets comfy and falls asleep. It's a miracle, actually. The first few times she did it i held my breath and couldn't believe what i was witnessing. Now, it's more the norm. Sometimes she comes back to the nipple 5 times cuz she's just not quite that confident yet (it's cute), but more often than not she's falling asleep on her own now. I'm still SOOO far away from being able to just "lay her down awake and walking away"...hee hee...maybe we're two years away from that! Regarding Dr. Gordon's plan, I did tweek it a bit....rather than doing it on a specific time frame like he says, i'll do it for 5 hours past her late feeding (which is usually 11 pM). I think that will make more sense to dd at this point. So far it's working too...after doing it for two nights I'm now consistently (for 10 days now) getting a 4 and 5 hour stretchs after putting her to sleep at 7. This is from a baby who was waking every two hours for 6 months. THAT IS ALSO A miracle!!!!!

Sorry if I'm rambling....


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## earthgirl

OK, this will probably be long. I've just been in tears most of the day, though. DD had a pretty bad night last night, then woke up @ 5:30. I just feel like my patience is gone w/ this whole sleep issue. I CANNOT get her to nap for more than 30 minutes, no matter what. Then she's tired all day and I spend way too much time trying to get her back to sleep. Or, I spend a lot of time trying to keep her awake so she won't be trying to go to bed for the night @ 4:00. I never get one single second to myself and then I feel guilty b/c when I'm not trying to get her to sleep I'm trying to get stuff done around the house. That, of course, makes me feel guilty that I'm not spending any quality time w/ her. It's all just so awful. I'm supposed to do logs on Saturday, but I'm not going to b/c I know there has not been any improvement. Also, when I try the gentle pull off, that just wakes her up more! I'm just at the end of my rope. I feel too overwhelmed to try to change things, yet I can't stand to leave things the way they are. I don't want to stop night nursing, but at the same time I don't want to be doing it 7 times a night...







:

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. I'm going to go stay w/ a friend tonight whose husband is out of town so I'll check in in a few days.


----------



## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
OK, this will probably be long. I've just been in tears most of the day, though. DD had a pretty bad night last night, then woke up @ 5:30. I just feel like my patience is gone w/ this whole sleep issue. I CANNOT get her to nap for more than 30 minutes, no matter what. Then she's tired all day and I spend way too much time trying to get her back to sleep. Or, I spend a lot of time trying to keep her awake so she won't be trying to go to bed for the night @ 4:00. I never get one single second to myself and then I feel guilty b/c when I'm not trying to get her to sleep I'm trying to get stuff done around the house. That, of course, makes me feel guilty that I'm not spending any quality time w/ her. It's all just so awful. I'm supposed to do logs on Saturday, but I'm not going to b/c I know there has not been any improvement. Also, when I try the gentle pull off, that just wakes her up more! I'm just at the end of my rope. I feel too overwhelmed to try to change things, yet I can't stand to leave things the way they are. I don't want to stop night nursing, but at the same time I don't want to be doing it 7 times a night...







:

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. I'm going to go stay w/ a friend tonight whose husband is out of town so I'll check in in a few days.











I second this. Last night was another horrible sleep night. I am worn out, cranky, upset, guilty, resentful, etc. She was up for several stretches of time in the middle of the night and then woke up at 6 something for good. I must get more rest than this.

I am freaking out about starting a job and feeling this crappy. I'm sure it will all be fine, but I just feel panicky.

And, like you earthgirl, I *never* do anything for myself. It's driving me crazy. I feel like everything I do is for someone else. I am in desperate need of some time for myself.


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## prettypixels

Liz, I put my baby to bed at 9pm too. I tried doing earlier and she just wakes up earlier, which doesn't work for me as my bedtime stays the same... so then I get even less sleep! She didn't seem to do any better by going to bed earlier, either... though maybe I'll try it again at some point.

I definitely agree with watch the child, vs. the clock. Routine is things in a certain order, not necessarily things on the DOT of a clock.

nylecoj, how old is your little one?









Jen, that is awesome! What aspects of Jay Gordons plan have especially worked for you do you think?

Earthgirl...







Is she teething?

We had a rough night last night too, she was up every 30 min until finally at 2am I left the bed. It's weird, but sometimes it seems she is able to *settle* if I leave. Then I think we got three hours. I'm grateful for the three hours! She is still waking every 45 min during naps, and usually every 45 min between 9pm and about 1am. Ugh!


----------



## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
nylecoj, how old is your little one?









Oh yes, I think someone asked me this earlier, but I've been too tired to remember.

Dd is just over 7 months.


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## prettypixels

Just found a blog that might be helpful for us. I haven't read anything but the tags (AP) and the title (intriguing).

http://sleepisfortheweak.wordpress.com/

Ha! I told a friend that my baby has decided that "sleep is for suckers!"







:


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## Aletheia

*earthgirl, nylecoj...* (and, I should add, anyone else feeling desperate, worn out, cranky, and resentful.) I'm in a good place right now. I'm sure it is going to be brief, but I feel relatively well rested and sunny. So TAG you're it; you guys have to pull me back out of the pits of despair when I fall in them again.









Here's what I think you both need to do. Go on vacation from solving anything for one, hopefully two nights and days. The object is to get as much sleep for everyone, no matter what it takes.

Nighttime:

Try to get comfortable side nursing if you can-- enough to sleep that way if need be. Pull out all the stops. Lots of pillows. Move the bed against the wall to support your back. Try the couch. Try the LazyBoy.

Turn all clocks in the bedroom around. Do not worry about how long you've been awake or babe has been asleep or awake. Just take care of the problem as fast as you can, and go back to sleep.

Get your partner to really step in-- tell him/her it is a disaster plan, you need crisis help right now. If babe wakes again but you know he/she couldn't possibly be hungry, hand him/her of to your partner.

Naptime:
Does babe fall asleep in the car? Get a magazine, pillow, and a soothing CD. Drive on the freeway until babe has been asleep for 10 minutes. Park. Put your chair back. Read magazine for 3 minutes before passing out. If babe wakes up, back on the interstate until she/he is out again. DON"T CRASH.









Does babe sleep on you? In the swing? Do whatever it takes.

Wakes up 30 minutes later? Fine. Chase him or her around vigorously, get as many belly laughs as possible; tire him/her out, and put him/her down again for another nap 1 hour later. You too.

AND ABSOLUTELY NO MOMMY AWAKE TIME WHILE BABY IS SLEEPING. (you could even consider this to apply to bedtime, if babe goes to sleep before you would like to.)

It's just 1 or 2 days to get you back on your feet; then you can do PPO and routine setting and clock watching and log writing all you want.


----------



## timneh_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
OK, this will probably be long. I've just been in tears most of the day, though. DD had a pretty bad night last night, then woke up @ 5:30. I just feel like my patience is gone w/ this whole sleep issue. I CANNOT get her to nap for more than 30 minutes, no matter what. Then she's tired all day and I spend way too much time trying to get her back to sleep. Or, I spend a lot of time trying to keep her awake so she won't be trying to go to bed for the night @ 4:00. I never get one single second to myself and then I feel guilty b/c when I'm not trying to get her to sleep I'm trying to get stuff done around the house. That, of course, makes me feel guilty that I'm not spending any quality time w/ her. It's all just so awful. I'm supposed to do logs on Saturday, but I'm not going to b/c I know there has not been any improvement. Also, when I try the gentle pull off, that just wakes her up more! I'm just at the end of my rope. I feel too overwhelmed to try to change things, yet I can't stand to leave things the way they are. I don't want to stop night nursing, but at the same time I don't want to be doing it 7 times a night...







:

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. I'm going to go stay w/ a friend tonight whose husband is out of town so I'll check in in a few days.

Oh honey... I am SO sorry... we had a SHI%%* last night too, it was awful... OH I wish there was something we could all do that would "WORK" 100% of the time... ughghghghghg. Having no sleep sucks so bad...


----------



## timneh_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Just found a blog that might be helpful for us. I haven't read anything but the tags (AP) and the title (intriguing).

http://sleepisfortheweak.wordpress.com/

Ha! I told a friend that my baby has decided that "sleep is for suckers!"







:









That's a fun blog... she found my blog one day and commented on it... that's how I found hers! Love how she calls her baby "Loudboy" LOLOL


----------



## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 

Jen, that is awesome! What aspects of Jay Gordons plan have especially worked for you do you think?

For some reason it just clicked with me...more than anyother sleep book or article. Part of our problem i think is dd's eating too much throughout the night. Not just the waking part, but I think she gets gas, etc. when she eats alot.

So, i really like the phase one part...where between certain hours (or time frame) it's sleepy time, not eating time. For me, it was a mind set i needed to change and reading his article helped me with that. Mostly just me having the frame of mind to incorporate the PPO sooner rather than later when she wakes at 12, 2 and 4......ie. not letting her have a full meal until my nip just slips out of her mouth and we both fall asleep together. What i've noticed is she'll latch on to get back to sleep, not intending to eat, but then my let down happens and she'll eat in her sleep! So, if i'm careful with the timing, i can get her drowsy and confident enough to go back to sleep before my let down happens and w/o her eating (too much).

Earthmama, how many hours is she awake between naps? My dd is still on 3, naps a day (she's 6 mos) and her natural bed time is 7. I just really concentrated on extending her naps, which helped her night time sleep. I was also going to ask about the teething thing too. It WILL get better. Just don't think about it for a week...don't read any sleep books, and don't talk to your friends about it...just enjoy your precious dd even at 2 AM.


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## prettypixels

JenLiz, I might try to incorporate some of that myself. My baby eats too much overnight too, although I think her problem is just that we need to switch her timing. She doesn't seem to get gas or uncomfy or anything... more like part of her diet is just at night right now. Like, half! She is a grazer too, and only eats a few ounces at a time, which contributes to the frequent waking.

Last night was *rough.* She woke up at about 2:30 and just would not go back to sleep. At 4 I finally gave up and got up with her. At 4:30 I took her for a drive. (These two steps were more for my sanity than anything else.) At 5am I got her home and back to sleep FINALLY. But then *I* could not sleep. I tried and tried, but was just too wound up at first, and then I was just lying there *waiting* for her to wake up, and couldn't relax to sleep. *sigh* So I've been up since 2:30. I am so tired.

When I think about it I guess it's not that crazy that she has nights like this... not only is she going through so much developmentally (last night she was not up to eat, or fuss, she was just UP), but her mom has some insomnia issues too! I mean it stands to reason... *I* have nights where I just can't sleep. It makes sense my baby would have those nights too.

But boy oh boy... am I tired.


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## maxsmum

Just wanted to lend some more support and join in. I know how frustrating it is, I have been dealing with it for a year - months 9 and 10 were almost unbearable for me. It has gotten more livable but I still have not slept for more than two hours straight in a year. Even when he does sleep longer I wake up - sometimes for hours - I think my body has just reprogrammed itself.

The sleep deprivation is seriously impacting my marriage - I am an absolute shrew - all the time. I seem to be able to hold it togehter for DS but he is witnessing his mommy snapping at his daddy all the time (and the dog) and that is not what I want him to grow up with.

I got the toddler book as DS is one and that seemed most appropriate. Little guy has not slept well since the beginning, 30 minute naps constant night waking etc. Goes to sleep in his crib every night but wakes around an hour later - then usually I go to bed with him and w co-sleep the rest of the night and nurse all night.

anyway, DS used to go to bed around 6:30 as the light changed it got later and later and then was like 10 before he was falling asleep. no rest for me.

I too felt that the early thing just would not work, but I tried it anyway - it was hard work but DS went to sleep by 8:00 for two nights in a row- still woke up an hour later but seems better rested in the morning. We had dinner, I bathed him, put lotion on (try to massage but his squirmy) brush teeth, read books, nurse and then carry him in the mei tai (want to phase out the mei tai but one step at a time).

I just got done blocking out the windows to make his room dark, his room is very bright. I realized I have been putting him to sleep in the light and it might really be affecting him. plus he gets up in the morning in our room which has thick drapes and it is dark - backwards. I also ditched his nightlight. we'll see how it goes.

Just got him down for a nap withour nursing to sleep or walking the mei tai - a first in 6 months! I am not expecting all positives but I am relieved to see any change at all in our sleep routine.

Look forward to hearing more ups and downs from all of you -

also just a thought - if you are documenting some of your nights here maybe you don't need to worry about the journal - you can keep track of your posts to see if there is improvement.


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## bdoody11

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Ha! I told a friend that my baby has decided that "sleep is for suckers!"







:









I say that all the time! I totally want it on a onsie. CafePress, anyone?









I have many of the same sleep issues that others have on this board, but I'm still on the fence on whether it is developmentally appropriate to try to change DDs schedule.

First, she is a terrible napper. Sometimes going down for 30 minutes at a time, maybe only gettling an hour to an hour and a half all day long. I try to make sleep as inviting as possible, bouncing her, nursing, walking, everything I can think of. Sometimes the sleep just doesn't come. This is one area I would like to improve and I think I need to improve for her sake.

Night time is better. DH bounces her to sleep anywhere from 7:30-9:00pm. She usually sleeps a long stretch until 1:30am (sometimes earlier). I then bring her to bed to nurse and she wakes up 2 more times until 8am when we're up for good. I would like less night wakings, but at 5.5 months, is that resonable? These are the two issues I'm wrestling with.


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## maxsmum

bdoody - it is reasonable if you feel it is, if it works for you and you feel baby is well rested than don't change a thing. that said DS used to be the same way and then changed - waking every 1/2 hour to hour at night etc.

don't fix it if it ain't broke but also realize as soon as you think you've got a good thing going it will change - they like to keep us on our toes







!


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## timneh_mom

We just had an ugly, horrible, horrible, ugly morning. DD was SO tired but would NOT go to sleep no matter what I did, or didn't do... finally I just put her on the blanket on the floor and let her fuss for a good long time and ONLY THEN did she finally give in and go to sleep after I picked her up to nurse. I DID EVERYTHING. This is SO frustrating!!! I know what she needs and I try and try and try to help but I'm just

















































because SHE WILL NOT LET ME HELP HER... WHY??? She wouldn't nurse, obviously didn't want to be held, I gave her some teething medicine, she wouldn't play, WTF am I supposed to do? I just sat in the chair and sobbed my head off...








:


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## hannah8ball

Oh my goodness, I am so glad I've found you! I just got this book from the library yesterday as DH and I are at the end of our ropes. DD is just now 7 months and the sleep situation has been deteriorating since she was 4.5 months old. She is now waking anywhere from every 45 mins to 2 hrs, typically between 1 and 1.5 hours between wakings.







: Both DH and I work full time (thankfully, I telecommute for most of it so I can fudge it *a bit*), but only getting 3 hour stretches of uninterrupted sleep less than 3 times in the last 3 months has made both of us crazy and crabby.

I've been reluctant to address this situation as we had severe weight loss issues when DD was a newborn and I've been very VERY eating focused ever since then. (I know, its been 7 months, I can calm down, but I definitely don't want a repeat). And so have been more apt to err on the letting her eat as often and as long as she wants instead of trying to get her to do this on her own. But, I think DD would nurse ALL NIGHT if I let her. Seriously. I nursed her in the sling while we were grocery shopping once, she crashed after about 5 minutes, but kept nursing the entire hour we were in the store.







: However, I've been having some luck with the PPO, mostly so I can get some work done.

Things that we are going to work on right away:

1. Naps. I'm going to really be harder on keeping her sleeping that 3-4 hours a day. If you wake up grumpy, its straight into the sling and and we go to sleep. Since DD has become mobile, it is much more difficult to get her to stay still long enough to go to sleep, so we've been using the sling alot to swaddle/cuddle/rock to sleep. Even if it takes up most of my day, I wonder if our nights are as rough as they are b/c she is chronically overtired.

2. Getting DH more involved in getting DD to sleep. Up until now, that's been my responsibility. If he can get more involved, I think she'll have an easier time learning how to relax and snooze without the boob. I'm definitely guilty of whipping it out b/c its there and easy (and she might be hungry).

We'll finish reading the book and figure out what works for us. But, I need this support now. Again, SO GLAD you all are here and we're not freaks for feeling this way.


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## timneh_mom

OH MY GOD...

The unthinkable just happened. Sophie woke up from her less than 1 hour nap and I tried to help her back to sleep but to no avail, of course.

I went to get DS out of his highchair and clean up his lunch mess, then I put more laundry going...

I went in to get her, and...

SHE PUT HERSELF BACK TO SLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know this is a total fluke and it probably won't happen again, but WOW... let's see how long it lasts, she will probably wake up in the next 5 minutes...


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## nhplantlady

hannah8ball What's the name of the book?

I guess I should be grateful that my 8 month old DS only wakes me once during the night. He now has a morning nap (30 min to 1.5 hr) and usually an afternoon nap (slightly longer than AM) and then goes to bed between 8:30 and 9:30 depending on when DD goes to sleep.

I've not transitioned him off of nursing to sleep yet and we still co-sleep him so I'm sure we've got a few sleepless nights ahead of us when that happens.

It is great to know that others are going thru the same thing, isn't it?


----------



## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom* 
OH MY GOD...

The unthinkable just happened. Sophie woke up from her less than 1 hour nap and I tried to help her back to sleep but to no avail, of course.

I went to get DS out of his highchair and clean up his lunch mess, then I put more laundry going...

I went in to get her, and...

SHE PUT HERSELF BACK TO SLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know this is a total fluke and it probably won't happen again, but WOW... let's see how long it lasts, she will probably wake up in the next 5 minutes...

Liz...







: I am getting the impression that progress comes in spits and spurts and randomness, so go ahead and count it as progress! Even if you take ten steps backward later, you saw an improvement. YAY! You definitely deserve to pat yourself on the back.

Everyone, I'm seeing a theme of babies who slept ok until about 4.5 months and then deteriorated rapidly... same thing mine did. So at least we know a) it is normal and b) we are not alone. As for whether it is developmentally appropriate... it is developmentally appropriate to have a mama who is not ripping her hair out from sheer exhaustion. I'm not a very good mama today. Thank goodness my husband stayed home to help me out. I seriously could not handle her earlier, she was SO CRANKY from so little sleep and I... I was just an empty cup, I could not deal. My husband (bless him) too her while I recouped a little.

So, while I understand that it is normal to do this, I think it's also normal for a mama to try to improve these wonky sleep patterns. Happy mama = happy baby!


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## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nhplantlady* 
hannah8ball What's the name of the book?

I guess I should be grateful that my 8 month old DS only wakes me once during the night. He now has a morning nap (30 min to 1.5 hr) and usually an afternoon nap (slightly longer than AM) and then goes to bed between 8:30 and 9:30 depending on when DD goes to sleep.

I've not transitioned him off of nursing to sleep yet and we still co-sleep him so I'm sure we've got a few sleepless nights ahead of us when that happens.

It is great to know that others are going thru the same thing, isn't it?

Once a night????

I'm *so* jealous.


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## maxsmum

I agree about the deterioration after about 4.5 months, it got progressively worse for us. At three months Ds went through a stage where I could put him in the co-sleeper at 6:30 pm and he would sleep until 6 am the next am!!! Of course I was still freaked about SIDS etc. so I woke up every hour to make sure he was breathing, did not need to nurse etc. so I did not get to enjoy the solid sleep!

I also agree, a few step forward, a few back. DS took an 1.5 hour nap yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!! A first in a very very long time. Of course the afternoon nap was 25 minutes and while I did get him to bed at 8:00 again he woke up 40 min. later and I could not get him back down at all for 30 min. so I finally gave up and went to sleep with him.

that is the hard part - fighting your own exhaustion at the same time makes me give in easier because I just want some sleep!


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## newlywaaz

just popping in to say I really like Dr. Gordon's approach...with one adaption. After I was finally able to put DS down on his own without nursing for hour and a half long naps at 11.5 months old, we decided to tackle nightime. First I started only feeding him on one side each time I woke him up, and switching sides every time he woke up so he'd only get the foremilk. I figured that might help when it came time to nightwean entirely. Not sure about the verdict on that one.

When we started, I read Dr. Gordon's online essay and really liked the way he worded everything, the mindset, and the tips, but it seemed waaaaay too fast for me. So I decided to spend a week at each stage instead of three days, and it's worked really well. I decided to go 7 hours from the last time DS nursed, not from when I laid him down, and try to get DH to do at least one of the nightime wakings because it goes so much smoother than when _I_ try to put DS back to sleep without nursing. We're kind of between the first stage and second stage right now, so I only pick DS up if he's really really not settling down, and I never nurse before 7 hours.

In a few weeks, my son has gone from waking and nursing 4 or 5 times a night to up to 3 or 4 hours at a time without waking now. Other times (like last night) it's every hour. BUT, he's not nursing back to sleep, and he is able to settle down with just a couple of minutes of snuggling or patting on the back.

big thumbs up for the gordon approach







I cannot wait for that first uninterrupted 4 or 5 hours....


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## prettypixels

I was thinking of trying some of Jay Gordon's methods with my baby, except for three hour stretches instead of 7 hour stretches as she is only 7 months old. I don't know if it would work, but I *have* to do something about the hourly waking. I'm just *so* deeply tired. I don't think I realized anyone could be this tired! Are three hour stretches unreasonable for a 7 month old???


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## maxsmum

prettypixels, I think three hour stretches seems very reasonable.

My DS has been getting up so often to nurse at night for so long but I really have finally learned to fall asleep while he is nursing. but I would not like to wake at all every 1.5 hours. I wanted to start with the PPO but I keep falling asleep before I can pull it out! Oh well. I think I will check out the gordon stuff too. I really have so much difficulty with this emotionally - worrying that I am causing psychological damage if I dont meet every single one of my babies needs as soon as he demands it, but at the same time I feel the rest of my life is suffering from the exhaustion...

Anyhow, was going to post about how awful today and last night were and how horrible everything was going despite my new efforts. However I finally got DS down at 9 and it is 10:24 and he is still asleep, granted he will likely wake any minute but I have had some time to myself and can recooperate. I wish all of you the same.


----------



## amberjee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom* 
That's a fun blog... she found my blog one day and commented on it... that's how I found hers! Love how she calls her baby "Loudboy" LOLOL

Hi Everyone, I just thought I'd stop by and say hello, as I saw the link to our blog www.sleepisfortheweak.wordpress.com here

I was reading all your posts and it sounds oh so familiar! We've all been through exactly the same difficulties, actually most of us are still going through it. It's a daily battle.

That's the reason we set up this blog, so that parents with bubbas who don't sleep won't feel like freaks or that they are doing anything wrong. Some babies just don't want to sleep (arrrghhhh!) I can't stand meeting yet another person with a 2 week old baby that sleeps through the night.

Anyway, nice to join your forum and feel free to stop by our blog sometime.

lots of love and sleep vibes to you all

amberjee
www.sleepisfortheweak.wordpress.com


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## prettypixels

Thanks Amberjee, I read a bunch of your posts yesterday... I really enjoyed it!

Though now I'm so sleep-deprived I cannot remember what I read

90 minute wakings, I think I could deal with. We are still doing EVERY 45 MINUTES ALL NIGHT LONG. I am up now because now I'm so wound up I can't sleep and I just Need. A. Minute. She was just wide awake for an hour after the 45 minute wakings all night. How is it possible for a baby to get so little sleep and wake up with such a huge angelic smile?!?!?!


----------



## timneh_mom

Hey Amber! It's Finngarianmama! Cool to see you here!









We had a totally crappy night last night. But it seems like after one really good night, she "pays us back" by making us work for it. *sigh*


----------



## huggerwocky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
Yeah, the nap help in that book is pretty lacking. That's why you don't remember it!







Basically, the nursing or patting back before they come out of light sleep is it. Oh, and she says to have a nap routine that's completely different from the bedtime routine. My DD naps for only 30 minutes, precisely. I have tried multiple times to keep her from waking from light sleep and it DOES NOT WORK. I do keep trying, though. Still, it's pretty frustrating.

Anyone have any ideas for a nap routine?


----------



## maxsmum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky* 
Anyone have any ideas for a nap routine?

30 minutes here too, sometimes nursing/patting helps - usually no. The only time he naps longer is if I go to sleep too - we both just got up from a 2 hour nap. But on his own - once in a very very blue moon and of course in the car.

A friend of mine said she watched her son nap and the second he would stir she would pat him on the back etc. to get him back to sleep. She never let him even get to a cry to signal he needed her. She did this for two straight weeks for every single nap and it seemed to work for her.

I could not do this before because I watched another child and he was often up and I could not leave him unattended to sit and watch DS nap. Now we are in the middle of moving and I feel like I have to use the time to pack because it is the only time I have when DS is not helping me UNpack as I pack stuff up.


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## maxsmum

duh! that is not really probably what you meant by a nap routine. too tired here.


----------



## nylecoj

someone mentioned dancing with dc to a 5 minute song. I thought that was really great.

We read a very specific book (Just a Nap) and then nurse and rock. Our night time routine is not much different though, so I don't know if that's the best way.

Things here are the same for the most part. She's already been awake 3 times since 7pm and it's now 9pm. DH is handling her though - doctor said we should give that a try since she just wants to nurse and nurse on me and is getting super gassy with a bellyache lately. I'm just glad I am getting a break.


----------



## JamieBrewHa

...


----------



## prettypixels

Last night baby girl was awake from about 2am to about 4:30.

I'm *so* exhausted!


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## prettypixels

Anyone else feel like you're stuck in an episode of Survivor: Baby! ???


----------



## JenLiz

i have so much to write about this topic but just can't find the time...i will though. usually i'm eating breakfast and just reading while dd is playing on the floor from 6 AM - 7 AM.

Anyway, my question to you all with sleep issues is have you tried eliminating dairy from your diet?? Whenever I have a bad week - like this last week (dd was up from for 1.5 hour stretches a couple times per night for a week) it's because i had dairy. I've known this since she was 3 months old (almost 7 mos now) but everyonce in a while I stray and man do we PAY. Anyway, other than that, teething causes her to wake every hour to 90 minutes per night. Then, it seems like she gets in that habit and i have to focus again on consolodating her sleep.

More on what i do/have done later...she's getting fussy and needs to go back to bed.


----------



## timneh_mom

JenLiz, I eliminated dairy for a couple of months and Sophie slept just as badly then as she does now. It doesn't seem to matter. She actually does have a stretch of 4 hours at night but our problem is that she doesn't go to sleep for good til 11-12 pm, her naps are terrible (wakes often) and she wakes up WAY too early in the morning for how late she goes to sleep.

Actually right now she has been napping for almost 2 hours and I have not had to go in to help her resettle after 45 minutes like usual. So maybe all my help has helped her learn to settle herself. This is amazing. Of course this is only happening because I'm waiting for her to wake up so we can go to a playgroup! If we were just hanging around home today, she'd have been awake 100 times by now.

I think there are some positive changes lately but it's always one step forward, two steps back...


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## maxsmum

I eliminated dairy too, from 2-9 months of age. I slowly reintroduced it, it does not make a difference (the night waking constantly started at 4.5 months and I was having no dairy then). DS still does not get dairy directly and I really don't have much myself.

funny about when you want them to wake up right? today I paid the neighbor (a teen) to come play with my son so I could pack and he would not scream for me to entertain him the whole time(we are moving). anyway she came over and he was still asleep, came over later, still asleep. My half an hour napper napped almost two hours today! I still got stuff done which was great but still had to pay the sitter for her time!


----------



## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenLiz* 

Anyway, my question to you all with sleep issues is have you tried eliminating dairy from your diet??

Yes. No noticeable difference.


----------



## nylecoj

Baby is still sleeping terribly and I am at work now.

Good news is she finally lets other people put her to sleep and has two good days in care other than mine. One with my sister and today with her daddy.


----------



## jemar

thanks god for this thread. I was beginning to think we were freaks. Up from 1am to 4am last night. Not fun. She slept better when she was 3 mos old and small enough to be swaddled.
If she sleeps more than 2 hours at a time, I have to double check she is still breathing.















Good to know about dairy. I've given it up a couple of times with no difference. I thought maybe I hadn't gone off it long enough.


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## Aletheia

It's true; dairy takes a long time to clear the system. My last bowl of ice cream was all over DS's skin as eczema for 3 and a half weeks before clearing up.







:

And yeah, I notice what it does to nighttimes... takes them from bad to mommy should be locked up bad.


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## Aletheia

So... here's a question for the group at large:

How many feedings a night do you think your babe needs? I mean actual, real feedings where you try to do both sides because babe is honestly hungry. Oh, and include how old your babe is.

My 11 month old is scrawny and super active. I try to feed him as much as I can during the day, but he still does eat like crazy at least 2x a night and usually 3x: 10:30, 2:30, 4:30.


----------



## maxsmum

Needs? I just can't tell. Baby is 12 months old. He really does not nurse much during the day although I offer it often. He eats plenty of solids and drinks water from a sippy cup. He wakes 4-6 times per night after I go to bed with him. Always wakes within one hour of going to sleep for the night and usually 30-45 minutes of nap. (if I nap with him he will sleep for 2-3 hours usually w/ 1 or 2 wakings and is nursed or patted back to sleep)

I definately think that my DS needs me to help him back to sleep every time. I have tried the pacifier, just patting him etc. to help him resettle but he always wants the boob. He usuallly is drinking when I fall back asleep. Luckily I have learned to fall back asleep (this took forever). I keep trying the PPO but I fall asleep before he is done drinking!


----------



## maxsmum

I have the toddler/preschool edition. She keeps referring to laying your child down and you can stay with them etc. I CAN'T lay my child down in his crib or in our bed, he immediately stands up and screams. I can't comfort him because he won't lie down!

does she say anything in the infant book about how to transition your child to a laying down position? DS has always been rocked/nursed to sleep or in the mei tai, and in both cases laid in his crib or our bed after he is asleep.


----------



## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenLiz* 
More on what i do/have done later...she's getting fussy and needs to go back to bed.

I'm too tired to talk about this right now...two nights of teething issues and no sleep (that's two nights of no sleep following 10 days of bad sleep from my slip with dairy







: ). My eyes are burning i'm so tired! I really don't know how they can get so little sleep and wake up at the SAME time as when they sleep well (for us it's 5:45...we don't get out of bed till 6) and she's still got the SAME BIG SMILE! It does help me to wake up, but man, when does that talent go away cuz i'm not waking with a smile till i see her...







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jemar* 
Good to know about dairy. I've given it up a couple of times with no difference. I thought maybe I hadn't gone off it long enough.

To see if it makes a diff you have to go off for three weeks - 2 to get out of your system, and 1 to get out of theirs. I start seeing a diff after about 1 week, but 3 is the magic number.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aletheia* 
And yeah, I notice what it does to nighttimes... takes them from bad to mommy should be locked up bad.

MEEE TOO!!! I've just finished one of those and now she's right onto teething, which basically provides me with just as little sleep!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aletheia* 
So... here's a question for the group at large:

How many feedings a night do you think your babe needs? I mean actual, real feedings where you try to do both sides because babe is honestly hungry. Oh, and include how old your babe is.
.

My babe is just 7 mos. I always only feed one side b.c of oversupply and fast letdown issues (that's beside the point though here) and I think physiologically she doesn't need to eat at all. It's all habit and her not being confident enough to put herself to sleep without it. I notice she never really intends to eat...it's just often when she sucks my let down happens and she'll start swalling in her sleep. I often just pull her off and she'll be fast asleep.


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## JamieBrewHa

...


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## earthgirl

Well, I've been off of this thread for a while b/c I just didn't even want to think about sleep. Things actually improved for about 4 days and just a few days ago they got worse than they've ever been! I feel like I could deal w/ one or 2 sleep issues, but *IT'S SO HARD*when she: fights going to sleep for both naps and bedtime (especially when you are rocking/ nursing her longer than she will actually nap), naps for only 30 minutes no matter what, cries her head off like she's being tortured when I ask DH to step in b/c I need a break, and wakes up at least every 2 hours during the night and nursing is the only thing that will get her back to sleep.







:







: The Pantley Pull Off is just not working for me. I think that has more to do w/ my patience level than anything else. And I just don't understand the lying them down drowsy part. DD thinks it's time to play if I put her down before she falls asleep. She starts rolling all over the bed having a good ol' time. It would be cute if it weren't every single time. Anyway, I'm really questioning whether I have the patience to try any type of sleep plan right now b/c it's so frustrating to not see improvements. I feel like if I could just lower my expectations of how I wanted her sleep to go, it would be much easier. Fortunately, DD is not one of those babies that spends the day being cranky when she's tired. She actually gets pretty slap-happy. I guess I should at least be grateful for that, huh?


----------



## timneh_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
Well, I've been off of this thread for a while b/c I just didn't even want to think about sleep. Things actually improved for about 4 days and just a few days ago they got worse than they've ever been! I feel like I could deal w/ one or 2 sleep issues, but *IT'S SO HARD*when she: fights going to sleep for both naps and bedtime (especially when you are rocking/ nursing her longer than she will actually nap), naps for only 30 minutes no matter what, cries her head off like she's being tortured when I ask DH to step in b/c I need a break, and wakes up at least every 2 hours during the night and nursing is the only thing that will get her back to sleep.







:







: The Pantley Pull Off is just not working for me. I think that has more to do w/ my patience level than anything else. And I just don't understand the lying them down drowsy part. DD thinks it's time to play if I put her down before she falls asleep. She starts rolling all over the bed having a good ol' time. It would be cute if it weren't every single time. Anyway, I'm really questioning whether I have the patience to try any type of sleep plan right now b/c it's so frustrating to not see improvements. I feel like if I could just lower my expectations of how I wanted her sleep to go, it would be much easier. Fortunately, DD is not one of those babies that spends the day being cranky when she's tired. She actually gets pretty slap-happy. I guess I should at least be grateful for that, huh?

Earthgirl... are you living in my life somewhere???







It's SO frustrating, isn't it? I've pretty much abandoned any type of "plan" because getting her to bed really early backfired BADLY... it actually resulted in us all getting to bed WAY later than usual... I also nurse her back to sleep at night about every 2-3 hours as well because NOTHING else will get her back to sleep...

She is also VERY CRABBY all day when she refuses to nap, yet getting her to sleep is SO time consuming and frustrating...

I understand why some parents want to drug their kids







: I sure would not ever do that nor would I advocate it but I can understand it...


----------



## earthgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom* 

I understand why some parents want to drug their kids







: I sure would not ever do that nor would I advocate it but I can understand it...

Yep, I totally understand that. Last night DH was saying, "i'm just going to let her CIO b/c she cries no matter what I do!" I informed him why we would NOT be doing CIO, but I'm starting to even understand why parents resort to that.


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## lepling

I am so glad I found this!!! I have only been doing the NCSS plan for 3 days now and let me tell you, it has been the worst 3 days ever!!!! I have a bedtime routine, make sure she takes two good naps during the day, which I have to actually breastfeed her through half of because she will wake up after about 30 minutes if I don't, and despite all of these efforts, she is waking up more often than before!!! AHHHHH! I am so tired! I really wouldn't care, but I also have a 3 year old as well, and she needs my attention too. Anyway, my youngest is waking up 6-8 times a night now instead of 3-5 times and I am about ready to pull my hair out! Oh, and that pull off method is definitely not working at all. I follow it exactly and NADA! UGh, is there any hope for us? I need sleep soon! Oh, and my oldest is having issues sleeping in her own room too, so our bed is getting really crowded! Well, I just mainly needed to vent to people who understand what I am going through. Good luck to all of you and if anyone is having success, let me know. I will keep trying for awhile, but if it doesn't start making a difference in a few weeks, then I am going to have to try something else.


----------



## earthgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lepling* 
I am so glad I found this!!! I have only been doing the NCSS plan for 3 days now and let me tell you, it has been the worst 3 days ever!!!! I have a bedtime routine, make sure she takes two good naps during the day, which I have to actually breastfeed her through half of because she will wake up after about 30 minutes if I don't, and despite all of these efforts, she is waking up more often than before!!! AHHHHH! I am so tired! I really wouldn't care, but I also have a 3 year old as well, and she needs my attention too. Anyway, my youngest is waking up 6-8 times a night now instead of 3-5 times and I am about ready to pull my hair out! Oh, and that pull off method is definitely not working at all. I follow it exactly and NADA! UGh, is there any hope for us? I need sleep soon! Oh, and my oldest is having issues sleeping in her own room too, so our bed is getting really crowded! Well, I just mainly needed to vent to people who understand what I am going through. Good luck to all of you and if anyone is having success, let me know. I will keep trying for awhile, but if it doesn't start making a difference in a few weeks, then I am going to have to try something else.

Welcome, lepling, to the club that you probably don't want to belong to!

Anyone up for starting a "My baby only naps for 30 minutes" tribe? Oh, BTW, my DD is going into her 3rd hour of napping right now, in my arms of course. This is after only napping for 2 hours the ENTIRE WEEKEND! And she took a 5 minute nap this morning.


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## prettypixels

I've been out of town mamas, but I have to say... vacation is difficult when you're waking every two hours!

I am luckier than most mamas here because we have actually gotten a little bit better... from every 45 minutes all night long, to every 45 minutes for part of the night and then a few 2 or 3 hour stretches. So I'm trying to count my blessings.

I think we *all* have to modify our vision of success. Ten blissful hours sure sounds nice, but come on! Who is with me in trying for 3 hour stretches consistently! That is all I ask! 3 hours!


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## earthgirl

OMG! DD gave me a 4.5 hours stretch last night, followed by a 3.5 hours stretch! Of course then it was hourly until she woke up, but who cares! I'm practically giddy from last nights sleep. I tried introducing a lovey (a Taggie) last night, and when I came to bed she had one arm around it. I'm sure it's just a fluke, but I'll take what I can get.


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## nylecoj

I went camping.

My almost 8 month old cut her first tooth. The days and weeks prior to this event were awful. She was waking every 45 mins and needed to suck on me all night.

But the tooth is here now and she has only been up a couple of times the past COUPLE OF NIGHTS!

Amazing. I forgot what rest felt like.


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## hannah8ball

We have not been doing so well at night. Our naps have improved 100%, and we had a good night a few nights back with only 3 wakings.

However, last night it was every hour and I was being pummelled, pinched and pulled in between. So not a whole lot of sleep for me







:

On the night that we had long stretches of sleep (one was FOUR hours!!), she hadn't taken more than 1.5 hours in naps the whole day. But she took nearly 5 hours in naps yesterday, and we were up every hour. Two nights doesn't make a correlation, but I thought it was supposed to be the other way - better naps, better sleep. Of course, the baby is much MUCH happier when she's getting good naps, but I'm not sure its worth the trade off...









Baby's awake again







Must go.


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## CaraboosMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxsmum* 
I have the toddler/preschool edition. She keeps referring to laying your child down and you can stay with them etc. I CAN'T lay my child down in his crib or in our bed, he immediately stands up and screams. I can't comfort him because he won't lie down!

does she say anything in the infant book about how to transition your child to a laying down position? DS has always been rocked/nursed to sleep or in the mei tai, and in both cases laid in his crib or our bed after he is asleep.

What if you tried laying with him on your chest & you (or DP) laying on the bed propped up slightly on pillows against wall or headboard? Is this making sense? So, you would not be 100% laying down - but somewhere in between laying down & upright as a transition. Hope this helps!


----------



## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
OMG! DD gave me a 4.5 hours stretch last night, followed by a 3.5 hours stretch! Of course then it was hourly until she woke up, but who cares! I'm practically giddy from last nights sleep. I tried introducing a lovey (a Taggie) last night, and when I came to bed she had one arm around it. I'm sure it's just a fluke, but I'll take what I can get.

WOW! That's great!

We're back to the 'every two hours" routine...since the dairy and teething thing. I'm gonna start the PPO and the gordon thing after this weekend (we're going out of town). I'm soooo seriously wishing I could just lay her down in her crib and she'd go right down. Can't imagine 3 years of this. I know, that's bad. But, it's how i feel. I'm sure 3 years from now I'll still be a member of this club, it seems! LOL


----------



## earthgirl

Well, we've had 3 relatively decent nights. Last night was odd, she gave us about a 4 stretch, but then couldn't go back to sleep for over 2 hours. The biggest improvement has been w/ getting her down for the night. It's been a little bit easier and we haven't had to "re-settle" her except for one time. Usually she wakes up 3o minutes after you out her down, repeat, repeat, repeat. I do wonder if it's the Taggie that's helping, or just a fluke?

Oh, and I got DH to read the book. It left him feeling like he just read a bunch of suggestions that may or may not work. He said he thinks the title should be "The Give-it-a-try Sleep Solution"!


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## prettypixels

Earthgirl, LOL!!!!

Speaking of give-it-a-try, has anyone had any luck with keywords/phrases? We have been doing that and I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not. Honestly the biggest thing seems to be the routine, nakey baby time, massage, cuddles and nursing, and sleep.

We had a really rough night last night though. I don't even want to talk about it!


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## nylecoj

Well, we are back to our normal-ish stuff, except she seems to be sleeping a bit better once I go to bed and take her with me. I'll take that, but what I wouldn't give for some uninterrupted adult time with the hubby.

Ah well. I know this is a phase - the phase called childhood.


----------



## earthgirl

Well, I guess I jinxed myself by sharing our progress. Last night was terrible! She had to be re-settled 4 times in 2 hours and then woke, I don't even know how many times during the night. Now she is rolling around on the bed b/c after 1 hour of trying, I have given up on trying to get her to sleep for her morning nap. Actually, she nodded off pretty fast, but I just had to go trying that stupid Pantley pull-off. I am vowing to never try that again. EVERY SINGLE TIME I have tried it, it just jolts her into wide awake status.







:


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## hannah8ball

Well, while we aren't sleeping in longer stretches, getting DD down for the night is getting much easier. We're using a bath, read books, cuddle and nurse, then in bed routine that really seems to be conditioning her to sleep.

Now, if we can just sleep in longer stretches... we had a good 4 hour period last night, then we were up every hour after that. I know she can put herself to sleep b/c she's done it for naps and when she goes down for the night... the thought of doing this every night for the next 3 years just makes me







:







:


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## timneh_mom

I am going to bow out of this thread for now. NCSS is just not helpful at this time... in fact the only thing that has been helpful for us is when I stopped micromanaging DD's sleep. I have her bedtime routine, which now at 5 months consists of a bath, change of clothes and nursing, then rocking in the chair to sleep. I have stopped trying to get her to nap longer, and I've stopped trying to put her to bed earlier. Actually letting her feel how it feels to go a whole day on 1 hour 15 minutes of nap time (which was actually 3 short naps














seemed to help her sleep better at night. She has slept the past two nights pretty much straight through, waking to nurse many times but going right back to sleep. When she nurses at night, she truly is hungry, because she drains one breast very actively, it's not just a second of comfort sucking then back to sleep.

I'll probably read now and then, but for now, NCSS ideas just haven't really helped us, in fact I spent quite a few days a lot more stressed than I needed to be. Hope the rest of you find it helpful though!! Anything for more sleep!!


----------



## earthgirl

Anyone trying to put your LO down while drowsy instead of asleep? I want to try this, but I know how it will go. Not sure I have the patience to try it just yet. I'm curious, if you've tried, tell me what happened?

Also, I'm considering giving her a later bedtime. Does an early bedtime seem to help you at all?

BTW, DD woke up every single hour last night from 10 until 7 this morning! Then it got to where I couldn't go back to sleep b/c I knew she would just wake me up again.


----------



## nylecoj

Yeah, I have not noticed anything that makes any amount of difference at all either. She's teething really bad right now and has diarrhea and a runny nose to boot. Of course she's inconsolable to anyone but me and my poor nipples are tender and irritated from all the comfort nursing.

Everyday we make it through is another day closer to the time when she sleeps the night through and no doubt no longer worships me.


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## prettypixels

I don't feel like I'm micromanaging at all, but if NCSS makes *you* feel that way, and isn't working for you, I definitely would try something else!

We have had a few HORRIBLE nights. Babygirl just started crawling and then right on top of it, started pulling to stand and cruising. Nights are AWFUL. She just cannot settle. I'm a wreck. I don't know how to keep my patience. I know it's just a phase but I get so frustrated when I get her almost to sleep and then all of a sudden she STANDS UP and starts booty-shaking!!!!







: On the bright side after much fussing, crying (with us), and standing and crawling she is sleeping in 3 hour stretches. But oy, getting there!!! !


----------



## timneh_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
I don't feel like I'm micromanaging at all, but if NCSS makes *you* feel that way, and isn't working for you, I definitely would try something else!

We have had a few HORRIBLE nights. Babygirl just started crawling and then right on top of it, started pulling to stand and cruising. Nights are AWFUL. She just cannot settle. I'm a wreck. I don't know how to keep my patience. I know it's just a phase but I get so frustrated when I get her almost to sleep and then all of a sudden she STANDS UP and starts booty-shaking!!!!







: On the bright side after much fussing, crying (with us), and standing and crawling she is sleeping in 3 hour stretches. But oy, getting there!!! !

Ugh, I'm sorry, that sounds so miserable!

I didn't mean that I thought NCSS was for people to micromanage their kids' sleep... but what I meant was that I felt like I was constantly fighting with her, trying to force her into a pattern that just isn't her, KWIM? I might come back to it later, depending on how things go with her sleep in the future. I don't think it's bad at all, just that trying to make it fit her was causing me a lot of stress. I'll still read the thread though.







It is SO hard to be patient, especially when you're so tired all the time... SO, SO hard...


----------



## gwynthfair

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
Anyone trying to put your LO down while drowsy instead of asleep? I want to try this, but I know how it will go. Not sure I have the patience to try it just yet. I'm curious, if you've tried, tell me what happened?

Also, I'm considering giving her a later bedtime. Does an early bedtime seem to help you at all?

BTW, DD woke up every single hour last night from 10 until 7 this morning! Then it got to where I couldn't go back to sleep b/c I knew she would just wake me up again.

I've tried this a few times, and she usually just wakes completely up, and then stands up and starts crying. I don't get how people do this. I wish I would have tried doing before she was capable of standing up!


----------



## hannah8ball

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthgirl
Anyone trying to put your LO down while drowsy instead of asleep? I want to try this, but I know how it will go. Not sure I have the patience to try it just yet. I'm curious, if you've tried, tell me what happened?
I JUST had success doing this yesterday for one of our naps... typically, DD just wakes right up and needs alot more settling down... however, it has been HOT here and so I had a fan blowing when I laid DD down... she just stared at the fan for a minute and then konked right out...

I've found that trying to put DD down too early results in bedtime battles... we looked at our history of when did we start to try to put DD down vs when did she actually finally go down... we realized that she tends to actually go to sleep between 8:45 and 9:15 no matter what time we commence night-time procedures... so, we decided that we wouldn't start our routine until 8:30 so both baby and momma can rest and relax







sometimes its really hard b/c DD is showing so many signs of being tired at 7:30 or earlier, but really, we've been doing this for the last two weeks and its been amazing how much calmer our evenings have become...

Update on night times: DD had another good night with just 4 wakings... thats two in a row!! Here's hoping all of us have more of these in our futures







:


----------



## prettypixels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *timneh_mom* 
Ugh, I'm sorry, that sounds so miserable!

I didn't mean that I thought NCSS was for people to micromanage their kids' sleep... but what I meant was that I felt like I was constantly fighting with her, trying to force her into a pattern that just isn't her, KWIM? I might come back to it later, depending on how things go with her sleep in the future. I don't think it's bad at all, just that trying to make it fit her was causing me a lot of stress. I'll still read the thread though.







It is SO hard to be patient, especially when you're so tired all the time... SO, SO hard...

Thanks... I do understand what you mean. I guess I've set my expectations pretty low LOL! So I'm trying not to frustrate myself by, for example, expecting her to sleep through the night. I don't expect that at all! I am actually totally ok with night wakings, just not so many! I want her to get better sleep too; lately she is just exhausted and cranky all the time, so we have to do something. I am hoping a lot of this is just this phase (crawling/standing/cruising) combined with teething... because it is just brutal! Last night was a little better, but I pretty much have to put her on my back to get her to sleep now. It's like an enforced swaddle... she cannot stand up or crawl or anything on my back!







:

ETA... the other thing I notice, at least with myself, is that IF I KNOW what to expect, I am much more patient. So if I know that she will probably almost fall asleep and then suddenly climb up on my hip and start shaking her adorable little booty, I am less likely to get frustrated and angry. (This is an issue for me, personally.. waiting on things and trying and trying to do things and failing makes me CRAAAAZY!) Plus I can kind of head her off at the pass... as soon as I see her go down that path we can do something else (like put her on my back). It's when it is the first time or the first couple of times that I'm taken off guard and left a mess!


----------



## beachcomber

After a year of trying various combinations of tips from NCSS I have given up on the book and on the concept of getting my DD to sleep in any way other than she does now. She goes to bed at about 7pm and it's an hour ritual but she does fall asleep between 8 and 9. She'll sleep until 12:30 or 1am. Then she typically cluster nurses until 4 am. After that, she'll ideally sleep again until 8:30. Sadly, I have to get up at 5:30 for work. I've been dog-tired for so long I don't know what it's like to sleep through the night.

I've tried the Pantley pull-off but it doesn't work. She wakes up and needs to be nursed again. I've tried putting her down drowsy. No dice. She gets REALLY upset and will NOT settle until she's nursed. I've tried putting her to bed early. Nope. Still takes her until 8 or 9 to fall asleep. I've tried the 4 Bs but baths don't make her sleepy. We have the same ritual every night and have for over a year. That did help.

The only thing out of all of this that I've learned is not to have the expectation that I can put my will onto my child. She has ALWAYS done things her own way. She does things when she's good and ready and no amount of pushing, encouraging, setting down routines, etc., seems to change that aspect of her. She does not like being alone. She hasn't from the day we brought her home. It's not so much separation anxiety as a strong preference. She doesn't mind which care giver it is who is with her (me, my husband or her Nana) but she needs us to be THERE especially when she's sleeping.

So. That's what we do. She'll nap quite well if we nap with her. She sleeps pretty good in two long blocks with that one cluster nurse in between if we sleep with her. That's just what she needs right now.

NCSS sits in my night stand drawer with the other sleep books. I know that one day this too shall pass. She'll sleep 'through the night' when she's ready. The best thing I've done for our sleep patterns here is to accept that this is how it's going to be and let go of the expectation that she'll sleep better or alone or whatever. It was very freeing.


----------



## maxsmum

beachcomber, thank you for that. My DS is one. I was trying all of these things but we are in the middle of a move and it was getting to be too much. I went back to our old routines and changed my perspective - I just accept that is the way he is going to sleep and I too realize that he simply needs someone next to him. We are all happier this way. I am done with NCSS, I will still use some of the tips, but not trying so hard it makes me even more frustrated.


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## prettypixels

I really do appreciate that the NCSS doesn't work for some people. Certainly, NOTHING will work for EVERYONE. I also appreciate that some people have no desire to change their babies sleep patterns. I'm cool with that.

But this thread is the NCSS SUPPORT thread. Maybe we should start a separate NCSS SUCKS thread for those who need to vent about how they gave up???

Some of us have made moderate progress with NCSS and I for one would rather have some encouragement than dismal predictions of failure, doom and gloom.







Others are trying it for the first time and could use encouragement also instead of doom and gloom. Could we possibly keep this as a SUPPORT thread??


----------



## babyluvr

this is just what i came on to find! i've only read through pg 4, will hopefully finish.

i see that the nap lengthening is really working for a lot of you, and i did it today with success too. but my problem is that i have a 3.5yo and 5.5 yo who i can't leave alone twice a day for 30-60mins while i nurse, rock, walk the baby (5 mos) back to sleep. what do you do with your other kids or are most of you on your first?!?! i can see having a video ready to go for one of those times, but i wouldn't do that twice a day.

and thanks for all the great posts!


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## snt88

I've been doing a few NCSS things for months, but now am starting a structured PPO program. I'm wondering about any PPO successes out there. Could you share you stories? And how does your babe get to sleep now?

p.s. doing this because DH needs to be able to put DD to bed when I'm at work.


----------



## snt88

Okay, due to some great replies to another post, we're not going to start PPO routine. I've been convinced that it would just result in giving up one of not very many tools to help dd get to sleep! When she wakes up at night, she has actually started falling back to sleep on her own sometimes - well with me right next to her - so I don't feel like th bf is the worst culprit in the current sleep situation.

BUT dh will need to put dd to sleep once a week starting in September. I don't think Pantely says much about baby going to sleep with different people, but anyone else notice anything?


----------



## JenLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Some of us have made moderate progress with NCSS and I for one would rather have some encouragement than dismal predictions of failure, doom and gloom.







Others are trying it for the first time and could use encouragement also instead of doom and gloom. Could we possibly keep this as a SUPPORT thread??

We've definitely made progress! It's not an overnight success thing. We've been working at it passively since she was 3 m/o (i mean, not getting all worked up about it...just keeping it in the back of my mind - AND doing the journal thing only every couple months).

this is how far we've come. I've got a 7 month old.

--from wakinging every 2 hours to having one 4-5 hour stretch after being put down and then shorter blocks until 4 AM where it's cluster nursing - we're working on this.

--from ONLY being able to fall asleep with nipple in mouth or bouncing to now 70% of the time she nurses till she's content, then pulls off HERSELF and gets comfy and falls asleep on her own. THIS WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF INCORPORATING THE PPO!!!! I did the PPO for a couple weeks and this is what i got. So, it does work for some. We were VERY consistent with it, even in the middle of the night and nap time too. Fortunately, doing the PPO with DD doesn't wake her up. Now, even when i just nudge her cheek with my finger she'll release. IT's great.

Regarding bedtime and naptime I pretty much follow her lead. I don't watch the clock so much - i let it guide me, but I never put her down at a certain time. She's great at giving me her indicators...she'll get whiny. If it's nap time I go right into the bedroom, pull the blinds, swaddle her (just for calming effect...she can get right out if she wants to...), nurse her down and either nap with her, or get up.

For night time, she's pretty consistent - she's ready to sleep between 6:30 and 7. I find if i extend her bedtime she'll still wake at the same time in the morning, so she does better wiwth an early betime. Besides the bath and book routine, I also swaddle her to get her to relax a bit - she doesn't sleep all night with one, but then at about 5 am i'll swaddle her again.

I really like the pantely book - it's the best alternative out there for ideas. I believe that you customize her ideas to what works for you. Being a mom is all about learning what's best for you and your baby and being consistent. Lot's of moms try a million different things and their baby (and they) get frustrated wondering why nothing's working. Just try ONE thing for a couple weeks -- consitently, and i bet you'll see some change.

GOOD LUCK!!!

(oh, ps I have no idea how people would do AP sleep rituals with more than one child. Honestly, if i have a second it would be VERY hard not to want to just have them learn to sleep on their own from the begining.....I do believe sleep is a learned behavior and my daughter sleeps the way she does because of what i've done. She never been a child that could sleep though the night, but i didn't help matters early on by nursing to sleep, etc., etc.)


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## JenLiz

oh, and one more REALLY cool thing that just happened last night.

After being put down to bed she woke about an hour later (still happens about 20% of the time), so, of course we were right in the middle of dinner. I went up to nurse her back down - she nursed then would pull off, nurse, pull off...she was restless and would fall alseep once off , then wake again to nurse. This pattern continued for 10 minutes till i finally just got up and walked out with her all restless. I've NEVER left the room when she was still awake! I figured the worst case scenario is I'd just have to come back in - best case is she'd just go down better witwhout me there in this case and I could eat dinner with DH! It worked! I could hear her restling around a bit through the monitor, then silence!!!! Yippi. My baby is learning! So, this is a good success story and prettypixles, i hope this keeps you motivated.


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## snt88

JenLiz,

Thanks for the success story. It's so encouraging to hear about other people making progress!


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## babyluvr

well this week has really made me a beleiver in good naps=better nighttime sleep. one day i was able to help my 5mo nap (the other kids were out with daddy) both in the morning and afternoon and he napped like 4 hrs total and slept GREAT that night. yesterday we were on the go and he took 3 short naps, then wanted to be asleep for the night when he napped at 4:30. he got up for a little bit and was down for the night at 7, but did not sleep well at all.

sooo, i'm a belever, now if i can just figure out how to make it happen with my other kids...


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## nylecoj

I haven't posted here in a while. Sofie has a tooth coming in and has been sleeping pretty badly for about a week or so now. I'm exhausted. Still trying. We are having some success now with me pulling her off when she's nursing and with her settling her in crib when I go to put her down. (She used to wake up and scream and then we'd have to start from scratch. Now, she rolls onto her side and stays asleep)

So the improvements have been minute compared to the way I feel right at the moment. She was up on Friday every 45 minutes and then from about 3-5:30am. UGH.

I just keep telling myself it will keep getting better until these sleepless nights are a distant memory.


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## chantald

Hello.. may I join? My name is Chantal and I am a SAHM to three, the youngest is 7 months old. You would think I'd have this down by now.. with three.. but they are each so different... My first NEVER slept.. he would wake every 45 minutes all night long and never napped.. Somehow we made it through and finally when he was 2 1/2 years old he slept great. All of this was before there were many books on helping kids sleep without CIO, and CIO would have failed miserably with him. My second was a better sleeper.. she at least napped a bit. And started sleeping much better and napping great at 18 months. But both the middle and eldest child needed to nurse to sleep..
This third one is a puzzle.. He doesn't nurse to sleep much and has been that way since he was born. It was a huge challenge for me to learn new ways of helping him sleep. He hated a pacifier, which the older two loved them, and loves his thumb....
So, you ask.. why is this person here.. what has she got to complain about..














: . The third, like his siblings, wakes every hour at night..at the most I get 1, two hour stretch of sleep.. by the time I get him back to sleep.. I may get 45 minutes of sleep myself before he is up again.
So.. I just got NCSS and wonder if it will help.. I have only skimmed it..

So, if you are allowing new people.. I'd like to hop in and get support..

thanks


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## iluvlucy

Am totally in favor of a NCSS-in action support thread

Have been toying w/ PPO and Pantley basics like routine, naps, etc. for awhile but now am on Day 3 of getting serious-meaning we have a 'plan' and are implementing it. I googled "pantley users' forum" and found this thread...I think it would be great to ahve a community of people to keep up with, just as the test 'mommies' in her book had her for encouragement and feedback.

6.5 mo-old DD-breast-fed, AP'd, etc. etc., a frequent waker-currently does 2 hours at a stretch max then needs a quick nurse and rocking. Wasn't always this way-used to do a good 5 or 6 hour stretch at beginning of night, but she had chicken pox and 2 bad cold viruses plus ear infections around 4-, 5-months, and of course I fed her often. Now the residual habitual frequent waking has been going on for about 7-8 weeks and I am serious about a gentle solution, even if it takes 90 days, I have to be doing something. Partly because I feel like the CIO thing is a freight train bearing down&#8230; everyone I talk to about DD's sleep seems to think we are headed there, but I don't want to think about it as part of the tool box. She also has some reflux issues, so even more reason to go slow and gently.

At about 4 months on advice of community nurse, we tried to encourage dd to 'sleep on her own' for hte first leg of the night (she came into bed after, but i can't feed lying down b/c of reflux, so i am now happy to have her in crib at foot of our bed)...We started to swaddle and give DD pacifier and she would usually go to sleep 'on her own' in the crib, with lots of patting and over the crib cuddling from momma, but recently she started to really fight the swaddle and it seemed like re-swaddling her after middle of the night feeds was interrupting going back to sleep, so we started the NCSS plan w/ weaning off the swaddle. That means that we have kind of gone 'back' to get started, in that I am rocking her to sleep and focusing on the PPO rather than going for the going to sleep on her own thing full bore at first.

I have been pleased at the progress with the PPO-I do it every time I put her down, all night and even in just 3 nights, it's gone from taking 15 tries to sometimes taking only 2 or 3 tries. We aren't doing the PPO during naps-partly b/c my husband and childcare provider (4 mornings/week) rely on the pacifier to get DD sleeping. And, I 'let' myself give up when I feel like I am getting frazzled to a bad point-e.g., after the 4th try to put her down in an hour at 3am!

I know it's too early to look for results, but I have to say it's taking a bit of faith right now to believe that one day I'll be able to put her down awake (and peaceful and happy of course) without a pacifier and see her drift off to sleep&#8230;That's the dream anyhow! I think a real support (not the 'it didn't work for me') thread where we can ask/answer practical questions, compare notes, etc. would be great.


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## chantald

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iluvlucy* 
breast-fed, AP'd, etc. etc., a frequent waker-currently does 2 hours at a stretch max then needs a quick nurse and rocking. Wasn't always this way-used to do a good 5 or 6 hour stretch at beginning of night, .


This is us too.. DS is 7 months..and I'm at my wits end. He is exhausted and cranky and clingy. I can tell he feels miserable with the little sleep he is getting. I am tired.. and it makes it hard to mother my 3 children the way I want to. I'm short tempered and grumpy most of the time. It isn't helping me deal with my first child's special needs and has added a lot of stress to things.

I have been keeping a sleep log.. DS naps two to three times a day for 45 to 50 min tops. I have tried being at the door to help resettle him when he cries at the 45 to 50 min mark.. no luck so far.

My problem is that he hardly every nurses to sleep.. he will act tired, and gladly go down into his crib most of the time. Sucking his thumb and hugging his lovie. He has been this way since birth. A total shock to me..At night, when he wakes.. he will nurse and then be done within 10 to 20 min.. drowsy and go back to his crib without a squeak. Yet he is still waking every 1 1/2 to 2 hours and cannot resettle.. So, I'm at a loss.. as there doesn't seem to be a suck to sleep connection.. I don't know what the next step is...


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## hannah8ball

Just wanted to drop in to say that we're doing really well lately with sleeping. We have been serious about a routine for naps and night time for a month now and it seems that it is finally taking hold. We cosleep, but have been using the pack n play for naps (DD is VERY mobile, so we needed a safe but confined area for her) and for the first part of the night.

DD is 8 months now and takes 3 naps varying in time, but total nap time for the day is around 4 hours. I have a nap-window where I will actively try to get her to sleep - nurse, cuddle, rock, etc., then I put her down to sleep, whether she is zonked or still fighting sleep. either she goes to sleep (she has done this 4 or 5 times now!!) on her own, or I start the process over when she gets upset. This has been so freeing for me as it lets me off the hook for putting her to sleep all the time, and it teaches her that naptime means sleepytime, even if you aren't quite done playing.

This last week DD has slept anywhere from 4-6 hour segments, and is only waking up 3 times a night! It really works! Of course, teething throws a wrench into the system, but sticking to the routine seems to make those good nights come back sooner rather than never









good luck to all of you and your sleep quests!


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## iluvlucy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald* 
This is us too.. DS is 7 months..and I'm at my wits end. He is exhausted and cranky and clingy. I can tell he feels miserable with the little sleep he is getting. I am tired.. and it makes it hard to mother my 3 children the way I want to. I'm short tempered and grumpy most of the time. It isn't helping me deal with my first child's special needs and has added a lot of stress to things.









wow. poor you!!! i can hardly imagine dealing with this with other kids! frequent-waker dd is our 1st and the whole sleep thing feels like it consumes my life. if i could quit my 20-hour a week job i would b/c i get nothing done, i'm so fried all the time. i really feel for you! don't despair...you will survive, but it sounds really hard.

is your child a candidate for the whole programme of 'stretching' between feedings by offering boiled water in a bottle if the feeding is < 3 hours from the last one? not the pantley way, but something the nurses here recommended. the theory is that they eventually get the msg that 'it's not worth waking up for this'--but i'm sure there would be crying involved and i don't know anyone who has done it.

i was also wondering if for your ds this is a behavioral thing (getting most of his calories at night?) because he must find his daily life really entertaining and exciting?! Maybe forgets to eat? can concentrate better in the dark at night? you've surely had the advice to feed as often as possible during the day in a dark room, etc. but obviously hard for you with so much on your plate.

our experience w/ the pantley thing is going a bit screwy b/c we've had a conclusive reflux diagnosis that makes me a bit hesitant about the whole PPO...see separate post. PLUS I was also just shattered after 5 days of prolonging the wakenings w/ the PPO, so i've ratcheted my whole approach back a bit.

BUT on the flip side, i have found that after just one week, she is going to sleep in crib so much more easily...(i think) this is due to being pretty strict w/ myself about the daytime nap routine--and i do hover at the end of the crib and try to intervene _before_ she wakes, at the first stir. works most of the time, but that's because we have a pacifier. kind of a bummer b/c suddenly i feel kind of imprisoned. but the afternoons out and about are a small price to pay for nighttime sanity (fingers crossed). i can definitely see this spilling over into easier nighttime settling, but it's too early to see any change in frequency of wakings.

honestly, it's all very confusing to me, a real mystery. but i like hearing those success stories!


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## iluvlucy

anyone have any input on the pacifier thing? (any success with or without moving away from pacifier?)

pantley's whole method seems to rest on retraining away from the suck to sleep ass'n ... but dd has pretty serious reflux and pacifier is an easy way to help w/ that, or so say the medical experts.

at 6 going on 7 months, obviously we face the issue of frequent waking for the pacifier. i'd love to get rid of it and willing to commit to the PPO. but hate to deny her something that makes her more comfortable as reflux seems pretty scary and miserable.

she has also just started meds...


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## iluvlucy

hey, i e-mailed pantley not too long ago to see if i could get some advice...got a form letter back, but it's really sweet and full of advice and suggestions. sorry it's so long, but i'm copying it here.

_Dear Julia,

Thank you for your note - I'm glad that you took the time to write to me. How wonderful for you to have a new baby! And&#8230;I know that with all the sweetness and joy a little baby brings, sleepless nights are part of the program, too! Let's start with a big <hug>. I can feel what's in your heart, because I was once there too -- I had two babies who were all-night wakers, so I know that right now you desperately need some sleep, and that you don't want your sweet baby to cry. I also know that even though you know you won't see one-night results, you're very anxious and eager to actually get some sleep. (So here's another Hug - it will happen, really, I'm here to help.) My son Coleton, who - as you know - used to be a frequent night waker, for a verrrrrrrrrry long time has been sleeping 11-12 hours at night without waking







My husband and I have gone through 4 newborns and believe me -- this sleepless-baby-phase shall pass! And pass it does, all too soon.

You are a wonderful, dedicated Mommy doing what nature intended for you to do. It's today's world that disturbs the natural biological flow between mother and baby, and it is a challenge to go against that current. By approaching your baby's sleep in a gradual, gentle and loving way (which, I think, is most natural) you will find that all your efforts will be rewarded.

My oldest child, Angela, was a colicky, high-need, non-sleeping baby, and required dedicated hands-on parenting while she was little. She never slept, was in my arms almost 24/7, and yet I would never resort to other's advice to just 'let her cry' or to "stop holding her so much". Now... she is 19 years old, a beautiful, sweet young woman, who is in her second year at college! She has a part-time job in her field, a wonderful boyfriend and lots of lovely friends. She's independent, yet very connected to the family. We have a very close and loving relationship. My other three children are heading down that same path. You see? It all comes back to you...and&#8230;those baby years are soooooooo long ago. But at the same time, it all flies by so very fast. I encourage you to enjoy every moment with your little one, even the sleepless ones&#8230;.

There are so many babies just like yours, and so many parents exactly like you. We have even done translations into Spanish, Chinese, Slovenian, Korean, Russian, Indonesian, French, Polish, Arabic, Portuguese, Danish, Japanese, Hebrew, Swedish and Lithuanian!!! I was excited and honored to learn that the Spanish edition of The No-Cry Sleep Solution is recommended by UNICEF and the World Health Organization (WHO). It's a breathtaking feeling to know that I am able to touch so many families of babies around the world.

I receive thousands of emails regarding my book - more than I ever imagined I would - so I am unable to create a personal response for each person. What I have done is created this letter for my many readers who have questions. It is excessively long and has lots and lots of ideas for you. ~ :0) Also, my other sleep book The No-Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers expands and focuses on sleep issues specifically for ages 1-5. Way down at the end of this message I've included a link to several excerpts for you.

I really do want to help you and your baby get better sleep, and I have found it helpful to send the following instructions to everyone who writes with questions. Once you've read all of this, and used the ideas for a few weeks, if you still have questions please do write again. Hundreds of thousands of parents have used The No-Cry Sleep Solution to help their babies sleep - and I know it can work for you, too. Have faith!

~~~ In addition, I have added a few suggestions after these main points:

1. I have learned that it is most helpful to read the book from cover to cover if you can. (If you don't have my book there are many excerpts on my website, or request it at your local library) There are tons of ideas throughout all the chapters. (Many of the letters I have received have been by anxious parents who have skimmed the book and are eagerly starting a sleep plan, and they email me with questions - most of which are actually answered in detail in the book - so you never know where your key ideas will be found.) 2. I recommend that you do your sleep logs. They are a starting point that it critical for you to access and monitor your progress. Do them for only ONE day and ONE night and then do another one in 10 days. But don't obsess about your logs - they are a tool to help you though the process. (If you really hate this idea, then skip it. I don't want to force you to do anything that makes this process unpleasant! However, most people find one starting log, and a follow up log very helpful.)

3. Create your sleep plan. Even if you have identified your sleep issues, you really need to create and follow a plan before anything will change. If you just implement a few scattered ideas you won't see as much success you will see if you take the time to write out a very specific sleep plan. All the sleep solutions are like puzzle pieces and work together on the entire day/night sleep routines. Keep in mind that you won't use ALL of the ideas in the book - just pick those that match to you and your baby.
Sometimes people will write to me and ask for specific instructions, or how a particular tip should be followed - here is the beauty of mothers, fathers and babies. You know your child more than anyone else on the face of the earth. You will know how to interpret my ideas so that they work best for your family. I really cannot tell you exactly what to do because I don't know you or your baby. But you can take my ideas and customize them to fit your family. It may take a bit of trial and error - but you'll figure out what works best for you. Have confidence in yourself.
4. Follow your sleep plan for at least 10 days. (I mean REALLY follow your plan! Not just bits and pieces.) During these first 10 days it is helpful to refer back to the book as often as you need to. Use as many of the solutions as possible, as they fit together like puzzle pieces. Doing only one or two things "a little bit" will help, but committing to your sleep plan and following many of the solutions will bring you better, quicker results!

Many of the questions that pop up doing this process are answered throughout the book. This is also a good time to read Chapter 8: Analyze your success.

5. Understand that things may appear worse than better at first. You are changing sleep habits that have existed for 6, 10, 12 or more weeks - or perhaps months. You may also have been unaware of just how disrupted your sleep was until you began to really look at it. (The process can be a real eye-opener!) The beginning of the process of change is often uncomfortable for you and different for your baby and it will require some adjustment. Just be steady and follow your plan for those first 10 days.

Remember too that naptime sleep affects night sleep and night sleep affects naps. So do everything you can to help your baby nap. As nights get better naps will too, and vice versa! (There's lots of information about naps in the book, and much of the info on night sleep applies to naps, too. Also, The No-Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers & Preschoolers was written two years after the first No-Cry Sleep book and contains several chapters specifically about naps that can help you even if your baby is younger.)

And one other thing - remember that even though cry-it-out books try to tell you that it's a "1 day fix" but it often takes weeks of very intense crying (and very little sleeping) for a baby to succumb and start sleeping better, only to relapse after teething, vacations, growth spurts, etc. So resist the pressure from people who tell you that "a few nights of crying" would solve everything - that's very unlikely!

As a matter of fact, here are a few excerpts from messages on the "sleep training" message board at iVillage:

Two weeks into "The Plan"
My 8 1/2 month old DS and I have been officially doing the CIO method for two weeks&#8230;

6 weeks,unsuccessful training..desperate!
HELP!!!
My baby is 7 1/2 months old. .. We started sleep training at 6 months. ... I am feeling very worn down and can barely take the crying anymore. Very frustrated and angry! This is a horrible cycle...he is tired all the time and is no longer the happy baby he normally is......Any suggestions/support would be greatly appreciated.

Help! Sleep training and feeling guilty
Hi, I'm new to this board but not to the Weissbluth method. I've read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child cover to cover at least 5 times looking for inspiration - including from 3:30 am to 5:15 am this morning when my DS was crying his eyes out. Here's where my guilt really intensified today. I went in to him this morning, and went to change his diaper to discover he had dirtied his diaper (probably at 3:30 am) and ALSO cut his 6th tooth overnight. I felt like the worst mother in the world for not tending to his needs, those needs which he was trying to express as he screamed and cried for me but I ignored. It completely undermined my confidence in instituting the sleep training methods.

At the End of my Rope!! AAAHHHH!!
I feel I have literally exhausted every idea and I am so desperate.
My 3 year old is Hannah. &#8230;Right off the bat, I crib trained Hannah. &#8230;At around 22 months, all hell broke loose. She began fighting her bedtime even with a strict routine. After awhile, we put a gate up and made her just stay in there no matter what. She eventually started going to her bed and going to sleep, but still remains awake until at least 9:30. Then, without fail, she wakes up AT LEAST 4 times a night.

The first pediatritian we went to said to try letting her cry it out when she woke up from the very first time. We tried this for 9 nights. It never got better. She would scream and cry after waking, then fall asleep at the gate for a few minutes, then wake up and start over again. It got to the point where she basically became nocturnal so we gave this up.

After over a year it is still going on. I'll listen to any advice anyone has.

~~~~ Also!!!!!! ~~~~
In case you haven't heard -- Ferber has been in the news (including NY Times & Good Morning America) saying that he has been misunderstood and that he never meant that crying it out should be used for all babies/children. Here's two links:
http://www.metronews.ca/column_relat...=12339&cid=636
http://babyparenting.about.com/b/a/216406.htm

He's also revised his thoughts on co-sleeping! This is a quote from an MSN article:
"Now, in a new edition of his book due out this week, he has omitted his statement about the psychological consequences of co-sleeping. "That's one sentence I wish I never wrote," he told NEWSWEEK. "It was describing the general thinking of the time, but it was not describing my own experience or philosophy."
Solitary sleeping was the norm when Ferber's first book came out two decades ago. But the number of adults routinely sharing a bed with an infant more than doubled between 1993 and 2000, according to the National Infant Sleep Position Study led by the National Institutes of Health. The 2003 study found that in a two-week period, 45 percent of infants spent some time at night in an adult bed. There's growing acceptance of co-sleeping among pediatricians as well. "What ever you want to do, whatever you feel comfortable doing, is the right thing to do, as long as it works," Ferber writes."
6. When you are dealing with sleepless nights it helps to re-commit yourself to what you believe about babies in general and your baby in particular. In the long run all your efforts will pay off. And these sleepless nights will be nothing but a very vague memory.

7. When you have done ALL the above, and if you still need my help then please do send me an email (with short, specific detailed questions and I wil be very happy to help you. I would appreciate if you keep your note on the brief side, given the huge number of emails I receive. (Make sure you include your baby's age.)

And when you have your sleep success -- please do email me that good news, too! I sure love to hear about babies and parents who are sleeping better!







)

I hope that this note will get you started on the right path. I have worked with so many families now, and have enjoyed so many tales of remarkable success - and I'm sure that you will be one of those stories too, very, very soon! Be patient and have faith in the process.

Sending hugs to you and your baby,
Elizabeth ~^*

More info:

If you haven't yet - take the time to read the interviews with some of the original Test Mommies on my web site -- lots of good tips and encouragement there! (And cute pictures, too!) http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php

Why not visit a local support group that has members that believe as you do? It would give you some much-needed support. Look here:

http://www.lalecheleague.org/WebIndex.html
--or
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/

~*~*~*~*~*~

I've listed below an assortment of additional sleep ideas for you. Look through these and see if any sound like good ones for you to try. Then add them to your sleep plan:

(1) Make sure you are reading your baby's tired signs. As babies grow their sleep needs change. What "used to work" may no longer. Try to figure out his new rhythm. If you put him for sleep when he is truly tired he will fight sleep less! Keep in mind that some children do switch to one nap a day around their first birthday, so that is an option to explore if your baby is in that age range.

One 2-hour nap is often better than 2 short naps. Also, many babies give up naps around their second or third birthday. The transition from nap to no-nap is often difficult, since there is a period where they kind-of need one, but kind-of don't! The best solution is to try to make bedtime a little earlier, and do what you can to ward off the evening fussies! Over a period of a few months your little one will settle into a new pattern.

Remember to avoid long, late naps. However if your baby seems really tired and getting grumpy, but it is late for a nap then try a very short cat nap of 10-20 minutes to take the edge off. That may get you through the rest of the day without a meltdown.

Also just a heads up here! Many babies sleep much differently as newborns than they do after they are 3-4 months old. For example, your baby might be a very good "newborn sleeper" but changes sleep patterns after a few months. This is because during the newborn stage of your baby's life her waking/sleeping pattern will revolve around her stomach: she's awake when she's hungry and asleep when she's full. And some babies are just very sleepy newborns. Once they pass the newborn stage (3-4 months) they begin to show their true colors! Also, unknowingly, we may have created patterns and associations during those early months that seriously affect our older baby's ability to sleep (such as always nursing or rocking or holding to sleep). When your baby starts to be more aware of the world, she doesn't sleep as well, doesn't sleep as soundly, and is looking for those "associations" in order to fall asleep. The good news is that the solutions in my book will help you solve all of this.

New milestones can affect sleep: Once your baby starts to roll over and crawl this newfound physical ability may keep him up in the night. He'll wake up and begin to practice his new skills! The best thing to do about this is to give him lots of supervised tummy-play time during the day, so that he can master his ability to control his body. This doesn't take long, and once your baby learns how to control his body and move around he will find it easier to get a comfortable sleeping position.

One other thing to consider - if your baby's sleep patterns suddenly change - if he is finding it harder to fall asleep or is waking more frequently you may want to have your health care professional check for an ear infection. These are common and since it hurts more intensely when laying down it will interfere with sleep.

(2) If you don't already use it I would use consistent white noise or lullabies for falling asleep. You can even leave it on for an entire nap and even all night (think of how peaceful it is when a fan or air conditioner or heater is running all night.) You can use a bubbling fish tank, a fan/heater (taking care that it gets neither too hot or too cold) or a white noise machine, like this one: http://www.homedics.com/prod/SubCat.aspx?CategoryID=102
Or here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...843830?ie=UTF8








or this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...843830?ie=UTF8








or:
http://www.naturestapestry.com/ommachine.html

Or this lovey "The Slumber Bear" http://www.princelionheart.com/site/home.html

Or this sweet lullaby music: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...270676-4045573









Amazon.com has lots of sleep-type music - here are a few to get you started:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...270676-4045573

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=music









White noise or music drowns out noise that may otherwise wake your baby and creates a very strong "sleep cue" (Another advantage is that you can even use this one away from home to create a familiar sleep environment) It can also help an early riser to sleep longer, as it can mask outside noises that wake a baby (along with this make certain the room is dark so early morning light doesn't wake your baby.)

(3) Make sure there's some tire-the-baby-out time - running, jumping, laughing - followed by an hour or so of wind-down time (book reading, story telling, quiet cuddles) can help set the scene for sleep.

(4) Here's an idea that has worked for many reluctant nappers. Bring your stroller in the house. Walk your baby around for naps until he falls asleep. (You can even do this in a small apartment, just roll back and forth, over a "lump" like a doorway is often relaxing for a baby.) When your baby falls asleep, park it near you. If he starts to move about or make noises walk and bounce him. Once he gets used to taking a longer nap than you can make the transition to bed. (Start by parking the stroller in a quiet place -- listening in with a baby monitor) then work towards letting him fall asleep in the stroller then moving him to bed when he's totally asleep. Step by step -- it can work well. (An alternative is to use a baby swing or bouncy chair if your baby likes one of those.)

~ If your baby is younger than 6 months, try swaddling him in a blanket so that him startles don't wake him. (if you don't know how you can ask your doctor, midwife, lactation consultant, or an experienced friend.)

When the time comes to wean your baby from swaddling do it one step at a time, for a few days or even a week at each "phase" - first leave one arm out, then two arms, then legs. (Or for some babies, begin the weaning by leaving their legs undone first, then progress to arms.) This gradual approach often works better than just stopping the swaddling suddenly. There's no rush, some babies love to sleep swaddled until 8-9 months old.

A quick idea if your baby is co-sleeping and you want to move him to his own bed. You may want to start by putting a cradle or crib beside your bed and let your baby fall asleep with your hand reaching over to pat, rub or just lay on him. Once he gets use to that you can gradually move your hand away. Then begin to move the crib farther away from your bed, eventually to his own room.

(5) Check your baby's nap schedule and make sure he's not napping too much or too late in the day. (page 110) Keeping in mind that as babies get older (month-by-month) their sleep needs change. Use their sleepy signs and mood to gauge their nap needs. Babies do change, and sometimes the schedule that worked last month needs to be modified to suit your growing baby better. Watch your baby's sleepy signals and mood to determine if a change is necessary in your routine.

What you'll want to do is watch your child's sleepy signs for a week or two, and then you should be able to create a good nap schedule based on his personal daily biological rhythm.

Use the time you pick as a guideline, and then use his tired signals as the main cue for naptime. If you spot the signals, don't begin just get your tired little one off to bed!¾a lengthy pre-nap routine

One other thing to remember is that babies tend to keep us hopping! Once you get him on a good schedule his rhythms change and you'll go through this process yet again. Over the first three years you'll go from four naps to three to two to one to none. That's why getting to know his sleepy signs are so important.

One other thing to consider - if your baby's sleep patterns suddenly change - if he is finding it harder to fall asleep or is waking more frequently you may want to have your health care professional check for an ear infection. These are common and since it hurts more intensely when laying down it will interfere with sleep.

I also want to mention that people might suggest that you wake your baby on your schedule to feed in hope that he'll then sleep when you want to sleep. However, this just disrupts your baby's sleep cycle, so I don't recommend you try this.

(6) An idea that may work for you is to take the crib apart and put the mattress on the floor. That way you can settle your baby for sleep and "get away" easily. Use a baby monitor and run to him whenever he wakes to re-settle him. Make a big "to do" about his "big boy bed" and he may really enjoy this. As he gets used to the arrangement he'll call for you much less. (Make sure the room is perfectly child-safe, of course!) We always did this with our babies and it worked beautifully. (Of course, in our house when I left the baby he slept with his sibling. Coleton at 5 often still sleeps with David (about to be 13) What a sweet sight that is!!) This an option for you if your baby is over a year old and you have an older child and if you choose to go that route.

When you set your little one up in his own "bed" be sure you use the Gentle Removal (for breast or bottle) and get out of bed when he falls asleep. If you fall asleep and stay there for the entire nap then he will be used to having you sleep next to him. (Not a bad thing of itself, except that you become his lovely and he'll want you there always.) You have to stay awake and "escape" so that he learns to sleep on him own. Just keep a monitor on, or doors open, so that when he wakes you can run right to him and re-settle him. You don't want him to start crying and wake himself up completely.

Remember the idea from page 112-113 too!

If your baby nurses or uses a bottle or pacifier frequently the Gentle Removal may be an important key for you.

Make sure that your baby is well fed. The "Pull Off" occurs after active feeding, during that 'sleepy fluttery sucking." REMEMBER! Your baby should NOT be sound asleep when you remove her! If so, she will just wake up "on the kitchen floor" at every brief awakening (see pages 45-46) Just know that it's often hard to begin this process as your baby will "hang on tight" as she learns what you're up to! Stay with it - sometimes it takes 6-10 tries before your baby will fall asleep, but after a few days of consistent GR it will take 5-7 times, then 4 then one wonderful day, your baby will fall asleep after the first removal! Some babies are more persistent than others - they don't want to give up such a wonderful sleep-aid, so be patient. And at any time if you feel too frustrated to continue just let your baby nurse (or use a bottle) to sleep so that you can sleep too, and try again next time he wakes up. Unless you have a "deadline" don't feel you must "succeed" quickly. This may take some time. Be patient.

Also!! As the GR begins to work it's a good idea to Pull Off sooner and sooner in the process, and one day your baby will surprise you by pulling off on her own. But to get there consistency on your part is important, so re-read the instructions on page 126-129.

If you want your baby to sleep alone, try putting him down after the removal and patting or rubbing him to settle him. If you remove and then let your baby fall totally asleep in your arms, you'll then be looking to wean him from the holding part, too! That, of course, is OK if you want to do it one step at a time. But if you want to speed things up then put your baby into bed sooner. It is fine to stay a bit and pat or rub or say soothing words, and - of course! - pick him up if he begins to cry. But inch a little closer to your goal every night. Patience, and persistence!

If you are co-sleeping you can find great here (Always make sure that you use them properly, and be certain that there are no gaps into which your baby could be trapped): guardrails here: http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html...sin=B0000A1O7Q
or
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or here: http://www.eshop.msn.com/eshopframe....snshopping%3d1
or http://www.leapsandboundscatalog.com...759&change=118
or here:
At 56"L x 20"H, this is the longest bed rail! Long enough for a queen size bed...high enough for a pillow-top mattress and even folds compactly for travel!! http://www.leapsandboundscatalog.com...758&change=118
or here
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Or check out one of the new soft-side versions, such as these: http://www.toddlerlinens.com/

http://www.snugtuckpillow.com/

(7) Make sure the room is dark during sleep. Cover the windows any way you can - even a piece of cardboard or aluminum foil. Some babies are very sensitive to light and it wakes them up. If you use a night light, use a very tiny one and make sure it isn't in direct sight of your baby. (Put it behind a piece of furniture or where baby can't see the light itself, so that it just gives the room a soft glow.)

When your baby wakes during the night make sure you don't "act" too awake. Don't talk, sing or anything other than to say "Shhh. Night Night." Avoid fast movement, avoid any lights, avoid unnecessary diaper changes, be very sleepy. EVEN IF YOUR BABY IS ACTING WAKEFUL! Be VERY boring! Teach your baby that nighttime is not playtime. (Even if you have to do this for an hour, eventually your baby will understand, provided his nap schedule isn't interfering by giving him too much sleep, or too long of a nap late in the day. Examine the relationship to nap times!)

One other idea here, if you have a baby who is up for an extended period in the middle of the night it's very possible that hunger is the reason, so a middle of the night feeding or light snack is in order.

(8) If your little one doesn't want to nap, try lying down with him in a quiet, dark room and pretending to be asleep yourself. Once he's sleeping soundly, you can get up and leave. That is if you're not sleeping too! If you do fall asleep it's because your body needs that sleep. Try to enjoy the nap! Sure, some things won't get done, but you can get back on track in a month or two when your baby - and you - are sleeping better.

(9) Schedule your errands or car pools around naptime and let your baby fall asleep in the car. (NEVER leave him alone in the car!)

(10) If you try to get your baby to nap and he is wide awake then get up and play for a half hour to an hour - and "tire him out" then try again.

(11) If your older baby gets upset just with the mention of naptime you can change your approach. Some older babies are so intent on learning about the world they hate to stop for a minute! Instead of announcing "naptime" say "it's quiet time" and lie down with your baby, read a book, listen to a peaceful tape, or turn on your white noise, give a bottle or nurse. IF your little one is tired he'll surely fall asleep. If not, the "quiet time" will work wonders to take the edge off - for both of you.

(12) Please keep in mind that it's a RARE baby/toddler/young child, who can be put into a crib/bed wide awake and then fall asleep peacefully! The VAST majority of children need some parenting before sleep until about they start school. Don't feel that there is anything wrong with you or your baby if your little one needs some "help" getting settled for sleep. It is natural for a baby to need some soothing before sleep. And it is a very special, beautiful, bonding time. Babies are little for such a short time - try your best to enjoy every moment.

(13) Another thing to think about - when we get obsessed with sleep then EVERYTHING becomes suspect and it's easy to tie every one of your baby's behavior's to sleep - eating, playing, fussing, etc. And while these are sometimes sleep related, often they are just other aspects of your baby's growing and changing.

(14) Always remember! Do what works for your family. There are no "rules" about babies. No matter what any expert says -- even me! -- it's most important that you follow your own heart and do what works best for you and your baby.

I hope these ideas are helpful.

Remember - this too shall pass. And then before you know it you'll be moving on to more great steps in your baby's development - crawling, walking .. and potty training!







Try the ideas in this letter - and follow your total sleep plan! - for a few weeks and then let me know how things are going. Hopefully you'll have good news to share!

May God bless your family.
Sending you Big Hugs,
Elizabeth

FYI: In case you haven't seen it, my book, Gentle Baby Care is an A to Z guide of 576 pages about taking take of your baby. I've pasted an excerpt for you below.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...762037-1328914









Handling Unwanted Advice
By Elizabeth Pantley, Author of Gentle Baby Care

"Help! I'm getting so frustrated with the endless stream of advice I get from my mother-in-law and brother! No matter what I do, I'm doing it wrong. I love them both, but how do I get them to stop dispensing all this unwanted advice?"

Just as your baby is an important part of your life, he is also important to others. People who care about your baby are bonded to you and your child in a special way that invites their counsel. Knowing this may give you a reason to handle the interference gently, in a way that leaves everyone's feelings intact.

Regardless of the advice, it is your baby, and in the end, you will raise your child the way that you think best. So it's rarely worth creating a war over a well-meaning person's comments. You can respond to unwanted advice in a variety of ways:

Listen first
It's natural to be defensive if you feel that someone is judging you; but chances are you are not being criticized; rather, the other person is sharing what they feel to be valuable insight. Try to listen - you may just learn something valuable.

Disregard
If you know that there is no convincing the other person to change her mind, simply smile, nod, and make a non-committal response, such as, "Interesting!" Then go about your own business...your way.

Agree
You might find one part of the advice that you agree with. If you can, provide wholehearted agreement on that topic.

Pick your battles
If your mother-in-law insists that Baby wear a hat on your walk to the park, go ahead and pop one on his head. This won't have any long-term effects except that of placating her. However, don't capitulate on issues that are important to you or the health or well-being of your child.

Steer clear of the topic
If your brother is pressuring you to let your baby cry to sleep, but you would never do that, then don't complain to him about your baby getting you up five times the night before. If he brings up the topic, then distraction is definitely in order, such as, "Would you like a cup of coffee?"

Educate yourself
Knowledge is power; protect yourself and your sanity by reading up on your parenting choices. Rely on the confidence that you are doing your best for your baby.

Educate the other person
If your "teacher" is imparting information that you know to be outdated or wrong, share what you've learned on the topic. You may be able to open the other person's mind. Refer to a study, book, or report that you have read.

Quote a doctor
Many people accept a point of view if a professional has validated it. If your own pediatrician agrees with your position, say, "My doctor said to wait until she's at least six months before starting solids." If your own doctor doesn't back your view on that issue, then refer to another doctor - perhaps the author of a baby care book.

Be vague
You can avoid confrontation with an elusive response. For example, if your sister asks if you've started potty training yet (but you are many months away from even starting the process), you can answer with, "We're moving in that direction."

Ask for advice!
Your friendly counselor is possibly an expert on a few issues that you can agree on. Search out these points and invite guidance. She'll be happy that she is helping you, and you'll be happy you have a way to avoid a showdown about topics that you don't agree on.

Memorize a standard response
Here's a comment that can be said in response to almost any piece of advice: "This may not be the right way for you, but it's the right way for me."

Be honest
Try being honest about your feelings. Pick a time free of distractions and choose your words carefully, such as, "I know how much you love Harry, and I'm glad you spend so much time with him. I know you think you're helping me when you give me advice about this, but I'm comfortable with my own approach, and I'd really appreciate if you'd understand that."

Find a mediator
If the situation is putting a strain on your relationship with the advice-giver, you may want to ask another person to step in for you.

Search out like-minded friends
Join a support group or on-line club with people who share your parenting philosophies. Talking with others who are raising their babies in a way that is similar to your own can give you the strength to face people who don't understand your viewpoints.

This article is an excerpt from Gentle Baby Care by Elizabeth Pantley. (McGraw-Hill, 2003) Lots of sleep questions and answers!
Read the transcript of a 3-day forum on The No-Cry Sleep Solution here -- http://www.todaysparent.com/communit...?sleep_pantley

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Disclaimer:
All of the information in this message is based on the author's opinion. The author is not rendering psychological, medical or professional services. This material is presented without any warranty or guarantee of any kind, express or implied, including but not limited to the implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. It is not possible to cover every eventuality in any answer, and the reader should always consult a professional for individual needs. Readers should bring their baby to a doctor for regular well-baby checkups and talk to a medical professional about their baby.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Elizabeth Pantley, Author
NEW WEBSITE: http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth

NEW BOOK ~~
~ The No-Cry Discipline Solution ~

Winner of the 2007 iParenting Media Award for Outstanding Book

NEW BLOGS & FEATURES ~~

Amazon.com Daily Blog:
http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link...pf_rd_i=283155









eHarmoney articles feature:

http://parenting.eharmony.com/author/epantley/

"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children."

--- Marianne Williamson

_


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## chantald

My first two loved their binky.. it was hard, during the phase where they would loose it at night and cry for it.. but I just kept having DH get up and replug them. If I went in, they wanted to nurse.. We would tag team.. he would go first.. try to offer the binky and resettle them. If that didn't work and they cried, I'd nurse them. It wasn't ideal, but it was our plan.. since this book wasn't around yet...
This one, never wanted a binky and prefers his thumb.. yet he still can't resettle himself..

I do think he is getting his calories at night..I offer to nurse during the day, but it is way too interesting. Perhaps when my eldest heads off to school things will settle down. He is also eating solids.. 3 times a day. He goes through about 2 jars a meal...I've added in meats (home made) in the hopes that him getting some protein would help.. doesn't seem to.

My first child was worse.. if you can believe it.. Up at night from 16 to 20 times...that was horrific...so this isn't /that/ bad...lol.. I am trying hard to keep a sense of humor.. but it is hard..


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## prettypixels

JenLiz, thanks for the success story. Things have been rough ... ROUGH... here lately and between that and all the discouraging comments, it got me down! I am going to start trying the PPO consistently again... we've gotten lazy with it. To be fair, my baby has just in the past two/three weeks learned to a) crawl, b) pull up to stand, and c) cruise! So her sleep has been *awful*. She will just start to fall asleep and then all of a sudden... STAND UP. (Using my hip to pull herself up.) It has been making me crazy. I've been bouncing her to sleep while wearing her in a Mei Tei, but even that just seems to take forever.. for the past few weeks I just felt like I spent ALL day long trying to just GET HER TO SLEEP. It is so frustrating, I feel like I've been losing my miiinnnnd. She's also been doing a lot of night wakings where she will be *up* for an hour or longer.

The past few nights have been better, but still lots and lots of night wakings. I'm going to incorporate the PPO again and I think I'm going to work on a gentle night-weaning between midnight and 3 am. She can handle 3 hours!

One question... she is so behind on sleep now, I feel like she is cranky ALL THE TIME. How do you help them get caught up on sleep? It seems like no matter what I do, she wakes up at the same time, no matter how tired she is.









Chantal, of course you are welcome! *Hug* Sorry to hear you are so tired, but it's somehow comforting to know my baby is not the only one in the world that likes to wake every 45 minutes!


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## snt88

Pretty Pixels, sorry that things have been so discouraging! I know the feeling. It sounds like you have a little bit of a plan, at least.

We've been having a bit of a rough time too. DD didn't go to sleep until after 10:00 last night, and was up a lot at night. DH wants her out of our bed, which I kind of understand - she's been up a LOT at night, and he has to be at work early. But I have no idea how to make this transition work. DD wakes up even MORE often when she's not sleeping with me. And I don't think I can survive having to get up and go into another room and get her back to sleep every 45 minutes. Right now I'm trying to keep her in the guest room some of the time, but pretty soon she's going to be crawling and I won't be able to leave her there by herself.

On the upside, one night last week DD randomly slept 7 hours straight! And she took a 2 hour nap this morning!


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## chantald

Last night was just horrible.. just horrible.. every hour from wake up to wake up.. so after he went back to sleep each time.. maybe he got 45 minutes..

He is so over tired I don't know where to start. I want ot know too, what Prettypixles asked.. how do you get them more sleep to catch up on sleep when they are so sleep deprived that they are not sleeping?!


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## iluvlucy

so, chantal, you said first child was worse. just out of curiosity, when did s/he change? did s/he actually 'grow out of it'? (in my dark moments, i wonder, what would happen if i don't do anything...?)

hope you are surviving your day.


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## nylecoj

Ugh and then some.

I am working now. I can't control naps even though I try when I bring dd to work.

She still only naps for two hours total on a good day. Usually 1.5.

I feel like I'm doing something wrong here. (Okay, everything)

If I can't get naptime down, then I'm pretty much screwed on this whole process, right?








:


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## iluvlucy

hey--well, i guess it's all a package. it is true that everyone seems to agree with the old proverb, the more they sleep the more they sleep! I struggle w/ the whole routine thing. When I stay home to give her an afternoon nap and she doesn't go 'down' easily, it seems easy to get locked in a kind of power struggle and she no doubt picks up on that vibe. But I've noticed that out on hikes, in the pack, etc. she doesn't stay asleep past the 40 min mark whereas at home I can 'stretch' her (sometimes).

i am finding it so hard to do the Gentle Removal (GR) consistently. Sometimes it is doable--after the first struggle (10-15 times) it gets progressively easier. But other times, like last night, it just obviously bums her out and agitates her. At that point I take Pantley's advice about aborting mission and give up, try again at next waking.

It's sort of an impossible situation as she gets her binky for morning naps 4 days/week with the nanny. Don't really know how realistic it is to get the NCSS in place w/o GR.

But...she says cautiously...I think we might be moving toward a longer first sleep, 3 hours last night?, although I don't see any obvious improvement with the rest of the night. Last night she was awake thinking it was wake up time at 1, and slept really fitfully after that.

But it's not even 10 days yet, must be patient and not count any chickens yet.


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## nylecoj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iluvlucy* 
But...she says cautiously...I think we might be moving toward a longer first sleep, 3 hours last night?, although I don't see any obvious improvement with the rest of the night. Last night she was awake thinking it was wake up time at 1, and slept really fitfully after that.

Actually, this gives me a little hope because I have noticed a slightly longer first sleep at night too and overlooked it in my haze of negativity. She has been sleeping 2+ hours for the past few days when we first put her down.

This has allowed my husband and I some quality alone time to actually get things done and relax together.

Thanks for reminding me of that.


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## chantald

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iluvlucy* 
so, chantal, you said first child was worse. just out of curiosity, when did s/he change? did s/he actually 'grow out of it'? (in my dark moments, i wonder, what would happen if i don't do anything...?)

hope you are surviving your day.










Yes, my first child was worse. He would only sleep being held. He did not nap during the day for more than 20 minutes at any one time. At night he would wake every 45 minutes (from wake up to next wake up... not from fall asleep after wake up to next wake up). On a bad night we could be up 19 times or more.. Most days I could barely function. I was severely depressed and angry.

Suddenly, between 2 and 2 1/2 years old, the night wakings diminished and then stopped. It was almost to the day he turned 2 1/2 that he started sleeping, although his sleep was restless and he would be all over his bed. It wasn't until he was 3 that he really started sleeping well.. this was after we began taking him to a chiropracter.

So, in our case with our first child.. there were many "outside" issues that were impacting his ability to sleep.. I am not sure he would have completely grown out of it. Even to this day, we must see the chiro regularly or his sleep starts slipping...

With this third child.. It isnt' the same.. he already sees the chiro regularly







. I'm not sure what is up with him.. but he doesn't have the "issues" my first had/has (thank goodness!!)

I survive ok.. other than getting short tempered.. I do much better on the little sleep I do get than I used to... I'm not sure why..


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## redsfree

This is an important thread. I hope to participate when I have a little more time. For now, I'm off to bed for a night of 1-2 hour power naps!


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## PapayaVagina

Thought I'd sub because we could always use the help.

We started a nighttime routine with dd when she was about 4 months old which worked well for a while, though she has always slept for only about an hour at a time.

In the last 2-3 months or so (she is 10 months old now) the nighttime routine was shortened because she screams whenever we change her diaper or her clothes so the second that dh gets her ready for bed she needs to come to me to get calmed down. I nurse her and give her the pacifier (I know, it's the devil but I've got her down to only using it when she is falling asleep) and then have to rock her to sleep which can sometimes take several hours but many times she will fall asleep shortly.

We tried the PPO several months ago and it resulted in 2 weeks of 0 sleep and lots of waking up and screaming for dd









She started to go through little spurts of maybe sleeping 1.5 hours and a few nights I think she went for 2 hours but the last 2 weeks or so has been waking up every 30 to 60 minutes and I have to sit up to nurse her back to sleep or she screams hysterically, kicks and turns away from me. I think she is going through a growth spurt and might be teething as well but she will not let me feel inside of her mouth. Her naptime schedule sucks right now and many days I can only get her to sleep for 1-hour total. She fights and screams when I try to get her to sleep (in my arms) even though she can barely keep her eyes open.

I'm thinking about tweaking my diet yet again to try and help her because I'm wondering if dairy is still a problem.

We are soooooo tired and I am so tired of this...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## iluvlucy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
Thought I'd sub because we could always she screams whenever we change her diaper or her clothes so the second that dh gets her ready for bed she needs to come to me to get calmed down. I nurse her and give her the pacifier (I know, it's the devil but I've got her down to only using it when she is falling asleep)

Interesting...I guess I am not the only one who has an incredibly kind and helpful dh who nonetheless can't help at all with this nighttime stuff? alot of the advice (including dr. sears & pantley) is to get dh to 'nightnurse' the baby back down ... our little one will have none of that. true enough, if we let her cry for a long time...20-30 minutes(?), wake up fully, and then my dh took her out in the frontpack for a walk, he could get her to sleep possibly...but ??? not sure that's a sol'n. in any case, mommy is the only solution. that's fine w/ me, but it does eliminate one possible form of 'help' (and it bums dh out a little).

for the record, i fell off the wagon this week after the sleeplessness from the worries about reflux, GR & the nap focus (read: obsession) were making me totally insane. still doing daytime naps at home in crib, but at night just haul her into bed after wakeup #2 and nurse her to sleep, fall asleep myself part of the time. sore nipples the result. but i need to step it up. am determined to crawl toward progress b4 dd is crawling herself!

(and in all honesty, i actually found that when i just stopped worrying about it and have her in bed, waking at: 9, 11:45, 1, 1:30, 2, 3, 4:30, 6?, i am feeling okay and well-rested. but i can't help but feel that i will burn out at some point and as i said in an earlier post, i am determined not to get into that hole that drives some people to CIO--controlled or otherwise. i feel like i can hear her cry turning from being hungry to being pissed and i kind of want to nip that in the bud to avoid big scenes later. i know this is not very AP thinking, but it's where i'm at.)

guess i will start all over again w/ a new log tonight. it's supposed to be 2 steps fwd 1 back, right?

hang in there ladies.


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## HomeBirthMommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald* 
This is us too.. DS is 7 months..and I'm at my wits end. He is exhausted and cranky and clingy. I can tell he feels miserable with the little sleep he is getting. I am tired.. and it makes it hard to mother my 3 children the way I want to. I'm short tempered and grumpy most of the time. It isn't helping me deal with my first child's special needs and has added a lot of stress to things.


Jumping in...

Oh my gosh-this is me! I also have a 7 and 5 year old in addition to my baby who will be 1 in two weeks. My older children and my husband are feeling the negative impact of my baby who demands ALL of my energy and attention all day AND night. I am a normally easy-going person with a lot of gentleness and patience and right now I am losing it. We are on day 3 of using the NCSS and haven't had much success yet. My baby will sleep, but she has to be in contact with me. I have had some success with the PPO, but I was doing that before I even read the book. My biggest obstacle right now is that my baby like a previous poster screams and stands up the second she gets near the crib (even from a dead sleep-it's uncanny). Right now we (ideally) have her sleep in her crib for her long stretch at the beginning of the night (about 2-3 hours) and then bring her into our bed for the remainder of the night, where she nurses about every 30-45 minutes. My dh really is ready for her to be sleeping in her crib exclusively and right now, I'd be ready for that, too. I miss cuddling with my dh.








I can't stand the effects that her non-sleep is having on me and my marriage and older children. I am starting to resent her and I feel horribly guilty for feeling less than loving toward her. I *know* it's not her fault, but I'm losing it and I don't like who I've become lately.

I'm so sorry I've found this thread b/c I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy and yet, here you all are.


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## chantald

I can't report much success right now. Some of it is due to major construction happening at our house now... so naps were dicey. The other big piece of the puzzle I may have figured out this weekend.. reflux.. bad reflux.. I have to call the Dr tomorrow.. but I think this is a huge part of our wakings. The last 4 nights have been hell.. he is screaming every 30 minutes.. and screaming not because he is sad or lonely.. but in such pain. It is heartwrenching..

I am so tired...and sad


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## MonTana Mama

Oh, my heart goes out to you mamas!!! I had this w ds1-SLEEPLESS!!! for over a year! No medical explanation, just his highly-sensitive personality. I really don't want to fall into the same sort of thing w ds2. He is 4.5 months. I am trying to be consistent w naps, routines, bedtime, and PPO! So much to do and remember. I feel like all we do is think about sleep. I am ready to give up on the NCSS already, only been at it for 5 days. But I am going to press on and hope for some results on day 10. I almost abandonned the plan last night and resorted to our old ways. It is esp. easy to do in the middle of the night-no? I have found that if I nurse sitting up in bed, I don't fall asleep and can do the PPO and lie him down a little ways away. Only problem is, we have a very soft mattress and he rolls into me.


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## nylecoj

Could be fluke, but yesterday I slept with dd for 2.5 hours! It felt so good for both of us. Last night she woke up once per hour until 10:30, and then she only woke up at 3:00. First time in so long I cannot remember.


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## dutchgal

Oh God--so glad I found this thread! As I type one handed, I have the other hand busy b/c my pinky is in her mouth--she's sucking furiously, holding on with both hands. I sorta missed her nap today and she's sleeping _really_ lightly as a result for he afternoon nap. *sigh* She's had a few weeks from hell behind her---or should I say *I* have, she always seems to awaken with a huge smile on her face!

DD is 3.5 months now, and the things I'm implementing right now seem to work. I keep reminding myself that sleep begets sleep, so I'm a maniac about protecting her naps at the moment. She sleeps beside me in a bassinette while I'm at the computer, since I can't do much else at the moment. My objective here is to stay close enough to intervene and stretch out her nap as long as I can however I can, and if it means pinky in the mouth the whole nap at the moment, I'll do it. After the last few weeks, I'll try anything!!!!

This last week, I've also implemented a nighttime routine, complete with a bath with a little lavender, mellows her right out! The other thing that seems to work is the key phrases, and we pull this music box toy to play at about the same time she's drowsy, so she'll learn to associate that with drowsing off. I ONLY say the key phrases when she's nodding off at this point, so it'll be a trigger for her to remember hos she felt the last time she heard it (I hope!!).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iluvlucy* 
Interesting...I guess I am not the only one who has an incredibly kind and helpful dh who nonetheless can't help at all with this nighttime stuff? alot of the advice (including dr. sears & pantley) is to get dh to 'nightnurse' the baby back down ... our little one will have none of that. true enough, if we let her cry for a long time...20-30 minutes(?), wake up fully, and then my dh took her out in the frontpack for a walk, he could get her to sleep possibly...but ??? not sure that's a sol'n. in any case, mommy is the only solution. that's fine w/ me, but it does eliminate one possible form of 'help' (and it bums dh out a little).

This is us *exactly*. DH is also a little bummed that he can't help more. But, I figure I'll be chopped liver soon enough so I remember the "This too shall pass" mantra...

So far this week, I've seen a bit of improvement in the first stretch of the night, when putting her down at 6:30 or 7, she will go right to sleep after a bit of pinky sucking in the crib. Because of the PPO, it's been easier for her to drift off without furiously sucking on my pinky, LOL Just last night I tried to wait it out a little when she started fussing, and I would hear a bit of a fuss, pause....quiet. Blessed quiet. Mind you, she still has only 2 hour sleeps at night, if that, but the initial stretch has definitely improved.

I will keep on with the PPO, the routine, the protecting of nap and the length of them, and the regularity of them too, along with reading her for tiredness, as she doesn't always need a nap at exactly the same time each time. Hopefully it'll all make a difference in the long run!

Thanks for starting the thread, let's keep at it mama's!!


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## dutchgal

Spoke too soon, *sigh* hell is back. Every freaking hour on the hour, like clockwork. I'm insane from lack of sleep!







:


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## chantald

Well.. last night was better.. we started the reflux medication and I got two 3 hour chunks of sleep. I felt like a new person today. Tonight is crap again.. He has already been up 5 times since 8:30.. each time he just wants me to pat his behind.. and he lays back down.. it doesn't last.. so wierd.. he isn't hungry (doesn't want to nurse and I've offered), he is just up twice an hour or so.. I'm stumped.. and tired


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## MonTana Mama

YES! Two long naps yesterday, 2 hrs & 1.5 hrs. A birthday party in eve kept us from our normal early to bed routine. Bummer. He woke at 1, nursed. Slept till 4, came to bed w me and kicked until 6. (felt like, anyway) Dh came in and took him until he left at 7. At least we have the same wake-up time every day-







Two more days until our 10 day Log. Really hoping for progress. BUT we 3 birthday parties this week! Keep at it ladies!

BTW-who uses a paci? What do you do w it? Any parameters?


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## gwynthfair

We use a paci...

I haven't posted in a awhile and we haven't really been doing any of the techniques in the NCSS, but I wanted to mention that recently I gave up trying to get DD to sleep in her crib and just nurse her to sleep in our bed, put a gate at the door and put pillows on her side (co-sleeper is on the other side, and we just let her sleep in our bed. I think it has helped a lot. For the past couple nights she's only woke 0-1 times between the time I put her down and the time I go to bed. It's awesome! She also has only been waking 1-2 times after I go to bed. I don't know if we'll ever use the crib again, but I feel comfortable with the situation and am psyched that I might actually be able to have a regularly scheduled time to myself every day...what a luxury!


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## chantald

Hi Ladies
Things are better here.. I have been very good about consistent naps and DS is giving me, on average, 2 to 3 hours before the first waking at nigth.. sometimes ( a fluke I"m sure) he is sleeping 7!! Of course, I wait until 10 or 11 to go to bed.. waiting for his first wake up.. and then he sleeps right through that.
Even a 2 hour stretch is better than the every 20 min we were doing. His naps are still only barely an hour long though...


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## mouso

Hello all,

I have ben trying to implement some of the tricks in TNCSS over the past couple of weeks.
My DD is 9 months old and takes 2 45 minute naps a day. She will sleep longer with me or in the car, possibly.

She has been fighting like crazy going to sleep at night. I thought our bedtime routine was working after we got several nights in a row of reading the last book and nursing to sleep within a minute.
The last 2 nights we have been back to the usual screaming- we drove her around last night (asleep within 3 minutes in the carseat) and tonight tried a swing we bought for this purpose (took about 10 minutes with me sitting next to her).

The problem is that she is up every 45 mintues after that. We cosleep when I go to bed and she has been nursing a lot also, but at least she sleeps all night with me- or wakes and goes back to sleep and I'm not aware.

But when in her Pack n Play, swing, whatever she wakes up every 45 mintues.

What have you found to be the most effective way to get your LO to sleep through the light sleep cycle? We used to be able to pat her back down but she has been nursing and nursing for 20 minutes every time she wakes and wakes and cries when I take her off and try to put her down.

So now we basically have to hold her all night.
Help!
What do you do- what has worked for you?

Thanks for any suggestions, commiseration, etc.


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## Happily Blessed

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mouso* 
Hello all,

I have ben trying to implement some of the tricks in TNCSS over the past couple of weeks.
My DD is 9 months old and takes 2 45 minute naps a day. She will sleep longer with me or in the car, possibly.

She has been fighting like crazy going to sleep at night. I thought our bedtime routine was working after we got several nights in a row of reading the last book and nursing to sleep within a minute.
The last 2 nights we have been back to the usual screaming- we drove her around last night (asleep within 3 minutes in the carseat) and tonight tried a swing we bought for this purpose (took about 10 minutes with me sitting next to her).

The problem is that she is up every 45 mintues after that. We cosleep when I go to bed and she has been nursing a lot also, but at least she sleeps all night with me- or wakes and goes back to sleep and I'm not aware.

But when in her Pack n Play, swing, whatever she wakes up every 45 mintues.

What have you found to be the most effective way to get your LO to sleep through the light sleep cycle? We used to be able to pat her back down but she has been nursing and nursing for 20 minutes every time she wakes and wakes and cries when I take her off and try to put her down.

So now we basically have to hold her all night.
Help!
What do you do- what has worked for you?

Thanks for any suggestions, commiseration, etc.

I am going through the same thing. I would love to hear ideas as well


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## Meekola

Hi all,

I have been "casually" doing NCSS for several weeks now. I've dedicated this month to really committing to it. I hoping I can get some advice. I posted a couple other questions on this forum, got some great advise, but now I think I need something more specific to NCSS...

Here's some background info. My DS is 20months old. He's slept and napped in our bed since birth.

I have two main questions:
1. In the last year, he has become more and more accustomed to napping in the car. Now, when I try to put him down for a nap at home, he'll nurse then pop up from a lying down position and be ready to play. We'll do this dance for an hour and a half and by that point I've had it. So- most days I'll just resort to reading in the car for 2 hours. At least this way we're not fighting and his bed time doesn't get pushed back any further.

Question: In NCSS she doesn't really address naps except to say that they should get them in on time. Is it "ok" for me to sit in the car with him everyday? It seems to me in the long run it's going to make things tough...

Second part:
Tonight was a fairly typical night for us. We have an hour long bedtime routine. We read books in bed and then he'll sign to me he's ready to nurse. 6 months ago, he would just fall asleep after nursing for 10 minutes. Within the last 6 months he's been popping up after the nursing session. At first I let him do this and we'd continue to read. But as time passed the second reading session would last forever and then he would repeat the nursing sign, pop up, etc.

Question: He's far too wiggly and strong for me to contain him in the bed, on the glider, etc. What do I do? Today I tried to really commit by pretending I was asleep (and almost fell asleep myself!) during that first nursing session. He then cried for several minutes. He got off the bed and was crying pretty loudly. The minute I stepped off the bed he stopped crying and ran for the door signing for dad. What should I have done? What do I do?

I suppose there is a third question... is 20 months too late to do anything? If it weren't for the sleep issue- I would have had more kids by now. This is a huge stress in my life and I always feel like a failed mother when I can't get my own son to sleep! Help!

Thank you so much,

Grace

p.s. To the two previous posters- I wish I had some useful advise, but I would def. suggest to start now because it only gets harder! I first read NCSS when DS was 7 months or so and it seemed "inconvenient". Now I'm paying the price!


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## snt88

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mouso* 
Hello all,

I have ben trying to implement some of the tricks in TNCSS over the past couple of weeks.
My DD is 9 months old and takes 2 45 minute naps a day. She will sleep longer with me or in the car, possibly.

She has been fighting like crazy going to sleep at night. I thought our bedtime routine was working after we got several nights in a row of reading the last book and nursing to sleep within a minute.
The last 2 nights we have been back to the usual screaming- we drove her around last night (asleep within 3 minutes in the carseat) and tonight tried a swing we bought for this purpose (took about 10 minutes with me sitting next to her).

The problem is that she is up every 45 mintues after that. We cosleep when I go to bed and she has been nursing a lot also, but at least she sleeps all night with me- or wakes and goes back to sleep and I'm not aware.

But when in her Pack n Play, swing, whatever she wakes up every 45 mintues.

What have you found to be the most effective way to get your LO to sleep through the light sleep cycle? We used to be able to pat her back down but she has been nursing and nursing for 20 minutes every time she wakes and wakes and cries when I take her off and try to put her down.

So now we basically have to hold her all night.
Help!
What do you do- what has worked for you?

Thanks for any suggestions, commiseration, etc.

I can definitely commiserate! We have the same problem with waking after 45 minutes - well - dd seems to be working her way closer to 30 minutes. My only trick is taking naps with her. Good for my sleep - not good for getting my work done.

I've tried Pantley's suggestion of trying to get her back to sleep as quickly as possible, and while I can sometimes get her back to sleep for a while, it doesn't seem to be helping her sleep through the light sleep cycle.

Anyone have any other suggestions?


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## 403girl

Someone referred me to this board and thread. I have been looking for NCSS support for a couple months. I've read all the posts and it seems that no one has really kept in touch recently.

PrettyPixels - you started the thread, I am wondering how its going for you?

My DS is 7 months old. Used to sleep great until he turned 4 months. Since then its been a battle. He usually falls asleep at bedtime on his own but wakes frequently at night. Gone from 3 times to 6-8 times... one night this week it was like 20 times. When he wakes I nurse him to sleep. For naps I have to rock him. My back is soooo sore from all the rocking .(I have lost weight from doing it so much! haha). I used NCSS for a few weeks in august and did see some progress. I then started to work on the naps, and then the teething started and its just gone down hill. I really think its because i didn't commit 100%.

The one thing I think Pantley doesn't focus on enough is a daytime routine/schedule. Im starting one for my son and i *think* it will help alot.


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## khcushman

Hello,








Please read this even though it is long and may not be true for you.
I am so grateful that we started co-sleeping when our son was only a few months old and feeding to sleep (after that he started actually taking longer naps) and that we did NOT follow the advice in "The no-cry sleep solution" which was recommended to us by our pediatrician and which says to not breastfeed to sleep. Here are a couple of my reasons and I also must admit I have not read it very thoroughly. Our lives are so peaceful with none of the sleep battles I hear about from others.

1. I would like to continue to breastfeed our DS (now 13mo) and have found that as he has gotten bigger and much busier while awake the only time he slows enough to breastfeed is when going to sleep, during naps or at night while basically asleep (He just wiggles, I help him latch and he quickly falls back into a deep sleep). A couple of my friends (who do not co-sleep) have followed this book and state their children have "self-weaned" by about 8-9months old. I wonder if really what happened is that when the babies had slowed enough to breastfeed, Mom was not available. Now they worry a lot and try to get their children to eat more solids. Our son eats whatever solids whenever he wants (sometimes a lot sometimes not much) and I don't worry about it at all since I know he is getting plenty of nutrition via breastmilk.

2. Our doctor said that babies just wake up during their sleep cycles at random but I have not found this to be true. There has always been a reason. Sometimes he cries out softly in his sleep like a bad dream and if I latch him on right away and talk to him softly he falls back into a deep sleep. Other times he is hungry and wiggles to nurse and I have discovered since tuning into his needs more that when he flips onto his belly and starts crawling around while asleep and starting to awaken that he has to pee alot of times. Especially if he tries to nurse but latches and unlatches repeatedly. See elimination communication

3. I follow his lead and not a "sleep schedule" from a book or one I created. I have found it so interesting that he generally starts acting sleepy around the same time each day (his own internal schedule I guess). I think the ability to adjust to his needs has really helped us a lot as he has changed and grown so he gets the rest he needs when he needs it. (I also do not wake him from naps so he will sleep longer at night. I figure if is asleep, he needs the rest and if later than usual in the afternoon, I make sure I rest also so I will be rested up in case he stays up a little later than usual). He used to get sleepy and took shorter naps about 4 times a day when a few months old then 3 and now about 2 two hour naps a day. I have found if I lay down next to him when he is basically asleep but still attached and stay there until he self unattaches he is much more likely to not awaken when I get up. I also try to sleep with him at least one nap to keep my rest up. Depending on when/how long his naps were and how stimulating a day depends on when he starts acting tired in the evening. After a bath he likes to get in our door swing then bounce on an exercise ball and breastfed to sleep usually about 7:30pm with several night half asleep feedings and up around 6:30am.

Warmly,
Hannah
www.kenandhannah.com


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## 403girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *khcushman* 
Hello,








Please read this even though it is long and may not be true for you.
I am so grateful that we started co-sleeping when our son was only a few months old and feeding to sleep (after that he started actually taking longer naps) and that we did NOT follow the advice in "The no-cry sleep solution" which was recommended to us by our pediatrician and which says to not breastfeed to sleep. Here are a couple of my reasons and I also must admit I have not read it very thoroughly. Our lives are so peaceful with none of the sleep battles I hear about from others.

1. I would like to continue to breastfeed our DS (now 13mo) and have found that as he has gotten bigger and much busier while awake the only time he slows enough to breastfeed is when going to sleep, during naps or at night while basically asleep (He just wiggles, I help him latch and he quickly falls back into a deep sleep). A couple of my friends (who do not co-sleep) have followed this book and state their children have "self-weaned" by about 8-9months old. I wonder if really what happened is that when the babies had slowed enough to breastfeed, Mom was not available. Now they worry a lot and try to get their children to eat more solids. Our son eats whatever solids whenever he wants (sometimes a lot sometimes not much) and I don't worry about it at all since I know he is getting plenty of nutrition via breastmilk.

2. Our doctor said that babies just wake up during their sleep cycles at random but I have not found this to be true. There has always been a reason. Sometimes he cries out softly in his sleep like a bad dream and if I latch him on right away and talk to him softly he falls back into a deep sleep. Other times he is hungry and wiggles to nurse and I have discovered since tuning into his needs more that when he flips onto his belly and starts crawling around while asleep and starting to awaken that he has to pee alot of times. Especially if he tries to nurse but latches and unlatches repeatedly. See elimination communication

3. I follow his lead and not a "sleep schedule" from a book or one I created. I have found it so interesting that he generally starts acting sleepy around the same time each day (his own internal schedule I guess). I think the ability to adjust to his needs has really helped us a lot as he has changed and grown so he gets the rest he needs when he needs it. (I also do not wake him from naps so he will sleep longer at night. I figure if is asleep, he needs the rest and if later than usual in the afternoon, I make sure I rest also so I will be rested up in case he stays up a little later than usual). He used to get sleepy and took shorter naps about 4 times a day when a few months old then 3 and now about 2 two hour naps a day. I have found if I lay down next to him when he is basically asleep but still attached and stay there until he self unattaches he is much more likely to not awaken when I get up. I also try to sleep with him at least one nap to keep my rest up. Depending on when/how long his naps were and how stimulating a day depends on when he starts acting tired in the evening. After a bath he likes to get in our door swing then bounce on an exercise ball and breastfed to sleep usually about 7:30pm with several night half asleep feedings and up around 6:30am.

Warmly,
Hannah
www.kenandhannah.com

Wow. It sounds like your son is a pretty good sleeper. It seems like the co-sleeping and nursing is going really well. I am not sure why you posted here, it is obvious that you don't really agree with NCSS. I think you want us to know that it is possible for co-sleeping + nursing to be successful? Which I think we are all aware of... I think it worked/works great for some of the moms here... But for some the sleep situation has gotten a lot worse. Many of us don't mind waking 2-3 times a night to nurse our little guys... the problem is when they wake almost hourly... A human body can only put up with this type of sleep deprivation for so long. I am curious if you have been through this sleep deprivation? From what you said it sounds like you haven't.

A friend of mine co-sleeps and her little guy nurses through out the night and she just sleeps right through it.... Other co-sleepers aren't that lucky and just wake up every time. I think it is different for ever baby and mother. All of our situations are different.

I think for many of us NCSS was a last resort. We are sleep deprived.. our situations need to change and we DONT want to let our babies cry in order for us to get some sleep. I don't think any of us are trying to wean early or kick our babies out of our beds..

I know for myself, I just want the night wakings to go from a lot to a little.


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## khcushman

"I am curious if you have been through this sleep deprivation? From what you said it sounds like you haven't.
A friend of mine co-sleeps and her little guy nurses through out the night and she just sleeps right through it.... Other co-sleepers aren't that lucky and just wake up every time. I think it is different for ever baby and mother. All of our situations are different.
I think for many of us NCSS was a last resort. We are sleep deprived.. our situations need to change and we DONT want to let our babies cry in order for us to get some sleep. I don't think any of us are trying to wean early or kick our babies out of our beds.. "
_________________________________________

I want to apologize for sounding judgemental and I realize that all mothers and babies are different. I also realize that I only have one child and can rest when he does to try and catch up (still rarely feel really rested up). After researching a little more, I found that people trying NCSS (even as a last resort) can be treated badly by those who do not. I have a lot to learn especially on how to communicate my experience and ideas without sounding critical which was not my intention. I think NCSS is infinitly better than CIO and I try not to be to judgemental of people.

The reason I posted was that several people in real life and online (including our pediatrician) highly recommended NCSS and I easily could have tried it just because it was recommended. Well, actually encouraged not just as a last resort but more like we "should" (and am glad we did not). I guess I just got so much advice about a baby "needing a schedule" that the discovery that our DS actually creates his own routine better than I could was so exciting.

Also, I just wanted to share (for those wanting to breastfeed longer) that the few people I know who tried NCSS stated their babies self-weaned around 8mo around the time when our DS mostly only nurses to sleep and at night. (I know there may have been many other factors in their babies weaning).
And, that for our DS when he wakes frequently and nurses short and frequently he may need to pee. We have tested this theory and found if I nurse him and hold him so he can pee he often settles right away and sleeps better.

Thanks for asking for clarification and I hope you and your baby are able to sleep better soon.

Warmly,
Hannah
www.yourneighbor.org


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## 403girl

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you - you don't need NCSS. I wonder why people would try to make you use it when you are obviously happy with your sleeping situation. Its silly when people want to "fix" something that isn't broken.

Another thing I wanted to mention to you: you are very intune with your baby because you know his limits. As you mentioned, you noticed that he gets sleepy around the same time every day and you follow his lead. Thats awesome! I figured that out when my son was a couple months old. I think some moms don't pick up on this and I think some sleep problems can occur when mom's try to work baby around their sched.

I know I mentioned in my post that I want to put my son on a sched/routine.. I don't mean a rigid structured schedule that goes by the clock. I just mean that I will pay close attention to his sleep cues (which as you mentioned, occur roughly at the same times most days). And since I've done this, his sleep has improved! Yea!! He only woke 4 times each night.. which is soo much better than 8-9 times.

Peace

Kirsty


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## kamea

Sorry i have only had a chance briefly go over everyones posts and just want to send out HUGE hugs, my 2yr. old has just recently started to sleep for more than 2 hours at a time. But she is still up pretty consistently 3-4 times a night, rarely less, sometimes more. My pediatrician has said for a long time that she is healthy, happy and busy and some babies just don't sleep like other babies do. And as far as naps go she has always only done 1 or 2 naps a day for no more than 35-40 minutes....usually one nap a day but if i am lucky there is a second one....
I read the NCSS b/c I read anything I could whenever I could keep my eyes open b/c I just wanted some SLEEP!!! Wether it was the NCSS or any other suggestions from books/friends/family, I am sorry to say I think in the end I just had to do what worked for me and my daughter at that moment.
When I had the ambition I followed any routine I had read about and journaled results, anything seemed to work for a bit or not work for a bit....so who knows.
Most importantly when I was tired, or more like BEYOND tired I did WHATEVER got me and my wee-one both some sleep. I nursed her to sleep until she was weened. We co-sleep still to this day. We eat, bathe, read, sing, talk, and sometimes even cry together out of sheer exhaustion and sometimes she falls asleep in record time (like in an hour) or sometimes she takes forever, like last night we pushed 3 hours and I am not sure if I fell asleep first or if she did.
Find someone to support you. So when you just need a break you can have it. For me my husband did it once, but it mattered, I nursed her and then he took her until she needed to nurse again, only about 2 hours at that time, but it was crucial at that time, it was hard to unwind enough to fall asleep but once I did, 1-2 hours felt like heaven.
WISH I HAD ANSWERS!! But i just really wanted all you strong mommas to know you can do it and when you can't ask for help, get that break, b/c I just keep telling myself that sooner than I expect my little one will not be so little and probably keeping me up b/c she is out somewhere instead of safely lying next to me and keeping me up ;o)

DO WHAT FEELS RIGHT FOR YOU AND YOUR BABY IN THAT MOMENT!! Everyday and every moment and every baby, mom, family is different and you will find your way to some sleep, even if it is only a little at a time. I understand and I am sending sleep energy to all of you and your little ones. zzzzzzzz.......


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## glamazon

Hi all
I hope anyone reads this, since posting has been less frequent. Not sure if I should start a new thread.

Anyway, I have a technical question about her suggestions around naps in NCSS. I'm not really looking for off-topic advice (thanks anyway) but just am interested in clarification and input from those of you who have really read and thought about this text.

As I understand it, she really sees naps as important and says to support naps that last longer than 45 min. She also, however, says to really try to have the child nap "independently"...not in arms...whether that's just a foot away from you in your bed or in their own crib or something.

My dd (5 months) wakes like clockwork at 45 min. Whether she's in my arms or in her babyhammock...at that 45 min mark she will rouse. I don't have much success with using my boob, a paci, or rocking to get her back down at that time if she's in the baby hammock. However, if I hold her for the first 45 min of her naps I can usually (though not always) nurse or bounce her through that waking and then put her in the hammock for another 45 min or more...thus giving her a longer nap of 1.5+ hours altogether.

So that's what I've been doing...holding for first part then after the transition putting her down (and finally eating, pee-ing, doing chores, or something else). I think this is a good plan because she naps longest this way, but it does then ignore Pantley's advice about transitioning them out of your arms for naps.

What do you think? Should I keep on keeping on or should I put her down sooner even if that probably means a 45 min nap at best?

thanks in advance.


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## kamea

I am no expert but my daughter does not nap for more than 35-45 minutes no matter what so if I could hold her for 45 minutes and adore the peace and quiet of a sleeping baby and then get ANOTHER 45 minutes of time to do whatever I would go for it. no doubt. My daughter is 2 and sleep escapes us still







) just her personality, enjoy your beautiful baby.


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## babyluvr

glamazon,

i think that what you are doing fits in fine with Pantley's suggestions about naps because half of the nap IS 'independent' and it also causes her naps to be longer than the 45 min mark, which Pantley emphasizes is important. perhaps if you consistenly do this, she'll get used to sleeping for longer and will be able to do that on her own one day. seems like for now this is a good baby step in teh right direction.


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## prettypixels

I think she says the most important thing is to get them to nap, period... she does say to do whatever you have to do, and it sounds like that is working for you. FWIW My baby does the same thing. 45 minutes, like clockwork. She does it whether I'm holding/wearing her, or whether she is in our bed by herself.


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## hannah8ball

Yes, I agree with PP that Pantley says do whatever you have to do to get them to sleep... FWIW, my DD has just now started being able to sleep for longer segments on her own (at nearly 10 months), even though we've been working on this since she was 7 months. I wonder if it is a developmental thing that as she is developing independence via mobility, she is now wanting to sleep more on her own. Whatever it is, persistence seems to have paid off as my DD (who previously only slept about 2.5-3 hrs during the day if we were lucky) is now sleeping between 4 and 5 hours a day without much work on my end... while we are still waking a lot at night, at least we are much more pleasant during the day... one thing at a time...


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## swampwitch

We have just this week started a bedtime routine. What I find very helpful from NCSS is the idea that it is the routine that is important, not what the clock says. DH and I have careers with really crazy schedules, so it eased my "bad parent guilt" to know that just b/c my kid isn't going to bed at 6:30 (when we're not even home yet, some days) doesn't mean I'm a bad parent. There is just no way we can maintain an exact time-based routine.

The troubles we are addressing with NCSS's suggestions are twofold: 1. short or nonexistant naps and 2. difficulty going to sleep in the evening. Basically we've got a little bugger who's very resistant to going to sleep, though we are lucky that once he is asleep, he stays asleep well.

My biggest frustration is that he is completely dependent upon me to fall asleep at night, to the point of pushing dh away violently and screaming until I am holding/nursing him. It is hard on my dh, who just wants to help and for whom this is sometimes the only time in the day he has with ds. It is hard on me b/c I am desperate for time to myself. He does alright if I am out of the house, but if I am on the premises at night I must be the one putting him to sleep, for now.

To that end, I am giving the PPO the old college try when it is appropriate, but sometimes I am more interested in him just getting to sleep than I am in untraining the nurse to sleep association. For example, last night I had dinner ready by 7 PM, which I prepared while dh bathed ds. The two of us sat down to stroke/nurse and read to ds. We're both there in the hopes that ds will associate dh with sleep, too. The idea was that, while dinner was baking, ds would be read to and then nursed to sleep. Dh got to eat dinner about 9. I joined him about 10.

Tonight's his birthday dinner (1 year old!) so we'll see how things go. :fingerscrossed:


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## glamazon

Thanks for those responses everyone.

I, too, think/hope eventually it will lead to a norm of 1.5-2hr naps uninterrupted. I always do the holding shift first, then the "independent" shift follows...so I'm wondering how often should I try skipping the 30-45 min holding shift to see if she will stay asleep in the hammock, ykwim?

right now i am doing my first holding shift of the day. thus the 1 hand typing.


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## quinnsmum

I just wanted to chime in to say that after months of very inconsistent PPOs, I can finally get him to sleep at night without nursing. Months ago, I could not put him down asleep anywhere. Heck, I couldn't even move in my chair and he would wake and freak. I finally got fed up and got consistent with my "plan". The 2nd day of 10, he slept from 8pm to 2pm!! the rest of the days he was up every 2 hours. I am still not entirely consistent (I cant always stay awake at 4am to help him back to sleep w/o nursing, but it is getting better. I really do have hope that this will work. I just HAVE to be consistent. I still nurse him to sleep for naps because I really do need him to take them, even though they are still only 45 mins each which I do know that will get better too.
So we are now on the 2nd 10 day try, and day 1 of 10 he slept for 7 hours straight. Day 2 was not so good, but I cannot tell you how refreshing it was to wake at 3 am for the first time in the night! I havent slept that well/hard/deep since the 1st trimester!


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## Muminmamman

Does Pantley have any suggestions for babies who need not the breast, but to be rocked/bounced/whatever many, many times through the night (i.e. every 45 minutes). I know I am in a different boat, but I would LOVE to be able to nurse my babe to sleep (oh the grass is always greener). Now, he does like to nurse, but he never falls back asleep that way.

I read her book when ds was about 8 weeks and thought he was far too young to be implementing anything...but now he is nearly 8 months and oh, I could use a good five hour stretch of sleep. Does anyone feel it is worthwhile to do a reread if I am not having the crazy nursing type baby?


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## Bellita

I was hoping to revive some interest in this thread...I tried doing PPO for the first time last night...DS spends half the night in bed with me, and then the other half of the night in a separate bed with DH, who gives him breast milk from a bottle. Anyone do PPO with a bottle? I'm wondering how this will affect our success. It's just I can't BF all night long...I need to get a chunk of sleep, as does DH, hence our situation...


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## heidirk

You can do PPO with a bottle exactlythe same way, or with apacifier for that matter. Now Ds when he's nursing pulls off on request! I love it! This morning I said, "all done baby, allright?" and he pops off with is eyes still closed and in this tiny sleepy voice says 'yeah'. TeeHee!
Now DH puts him to sleep initially, because as EP says, the way a LO goes to sleep is the way he expects to return to sleep. Maybe you should switch halves of the night with your DP?
Part of DH's bedtime routine for our LO includes, OK now we're going to get a drink, and then we're going to sleep. It seems to work.


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## chantald

Hello
Argh.. I wish things were going better here. I'm stumped..

DS goes to bed without nursing for all naps and at the start of the night. BUT he wakes at 11,2,4 and 6 every night.. nearly like clockwork.. Sometimes it is 12,2,and 5 but it is usually 11,2,4 and 6

I have been sending DH in and he resettles after a few minutes of patting.. WHY IS HE STILL WAKING UP??? He can put himself to sleep every other time.

If he won't settle, I'll nurse him.. often I'll nurse him at the 11/12 wakeup.. thinking he is probably hungry.. since it has been a while since dinner.. but the rest??! I'm really exhausted...


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## petra_william

well, although im not doing any "sleep training" (as ive given up lol) i just though id let you know that there is another mum out there who is waking up looaoaaadsssss in the night lol
i co sleep for most of the night, weve tried all sorts to get lo (now 10mths) to sleep wihtout being fed but had no success.
now ive just learnt to accept the fact that he will wake up in the night for as long as he needs to and hell (hopefully) sleep better once he has decided himself he wants to sleep by himself iyswim.
we put him down at 7 ish and he wakes up after 45 min to 3 hours, depending on how tired, etc. he used to wake up like clockwork every 45 minutes but is now starting to go down for longer (without any training yippie!!)
when he then wakes up i take him into our room and bf him off to sleep laid down in our bed. hell then go about 2 hours, waking more often as the night goes on (obviously, as thats when i want to get some sleep.. the little b**ger lol)








anyways ive just said to myself now, hes only a baby, he doesnt know he should sleep at certain times, all he knows is that his mummy has a comfortable warm breast and he likes to have it in his mouth when going off to sleep as it makes him happy. he doestn know that my back hurts, im tired or that daddy nearly falls out of bed every night







:
im not expecting him to sleep through for the next few years probably but things will / are getting better slowly. i keep telling myself if hes allowed to decide for himself when he wants to be independant hell be much more secure than if i try and push him.. thats my oppinion anyway.
i know i am lucky as i dont have to go to work and can nap with him during the day and therefor dont "need" to help him to sleep longer.
good luck to all of you who are trying to help their los sleep longer. i know its hard, but the best thing you can do is to say to yourself it wont last forever and when your baby is a sulky teenager you ll wish he was tiny again nestled in your arms being rocked / bf to sleep and content wiht you being there for him.

sweet dreams xxx


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## chantald

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
well, although im not doing any "sleep training" (as ive given up lol) i just though id let you know that there is another mum out there who is waking up looaoaaadsssss in the night lol
i co sleep for most of the night, weve tried all sorts to get lo (now 10mths) to sleep wihtout being fed but had no success.
now ive just learnt to accept the fact that he will wake up in the night for as long as he needs to and hell (hopefully) sleep better once he has decided himself he wants to sleep by himself iyswim.
we put him down at 7 ish and he wakes up after 45 min to 3 hours, depending on how tired, etc. he used to wake up like clockwork every 45 minutes but is now starting to go down for longer (without any training yippie!!)
when he then wakes up i take him into our room and bf him off to sleep laid down in our bed. hell then go about 2 hours, waking more often as the night goes on (obviously, as thats when i want to get some sleep.. the little b**ger lol)








anyways ive just said to myself now, hes only a baby, he doesnt know he should sleep at certain times, all he knows is that his mummy has a comfortable warm breast and he likes to have it in his mouth when going off to sleep as it makes him happy. he doestn know that my back hurts, im tired or that daddy nearly falls out of bed every night







:
im not expecting him to sleep through for the next few years probably but things will / are getting better slowly. i keep telling myself if hes allowed to decide for himself when he wants to be independant hell be much more secure than if i try and push him.. thats my oppinion anyway.
i know i am lucky as i dont have to go to work and can nap with him during the day and therefor dont "need" to help him to sleep longer.
good luck to all of you who are trying to help their los sleep longer. i know its hard, but the best thing you can do is to say to yourself it wont last forever and when your baby is a sulky teenager you ll wish he was tiny again nestled in your arms being rocked / bf to sleep and content wiht you being there for him.

sweet dreams xxx


Sounds like my first child to a tee.. and he started sleeping great at age 2 1/2. 12 hour straight!! He also wasnt' one to be "Trained".. nothing every worked. I just had to ride it out.
Hang in there! It is much easier with just one, you can catch a nap when you can. It is so much harder to cope when you have other children or work commitments.








:


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## heidirk

To the Part where you said, 'Why does He wake Up?'

I don't know wh mine wakes up either. But DH wakes up, andoften has trouble going back to sleep, so maybe my DS inerited it?

Dr. Sears says that it's really just several cycles of sleep, and that as adults we are very close to waking but can resettle ourselveseasilybefore we fully awaken because w'vehad so much practice. Babes can't automatically resettle themselves for a while, and end up fully awake where an adult would just roll over.

This is SO normal.


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## georgiegirl1974

My DD is 20 months old, and our probs aren't getting any better. It takes us 45 min - 1 hour to get her down at night, then she wakes 4-10 times a night. (Maybe once a week she will only wake 3 times.) I've tried almost all of Pantley's suggestions, but nothing works. I feel like his will never end.


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## puffingirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kimiko* 
Does Pantley have any suggestions for babies who need not the breast, but to be rocked/bounced/whatever many, many times through the night (i.e. every 45 minutes). I know I am in a different boat, but I would LOVE to be able to nurse my babe to sleep (oh the grass is always greener). Now, he does like to nurse, but he never falls back asleep that way.

I read her book when ds was about 8 weeks and thought he was far too young to be implementing anything...but now he is nearly 8 months and oh, I could use a good five hour stretch of sleep. Does anyone feel it is worthwhile to do a reread if I am not having the crazy nursing type baby?

We have the same deal here. DD (5 mos) will rarely fall asleep nursing and prefers to be rocked to sleep. This has left DH rocking her up to 8 times a night recently, me rocking her many times for naps and to get back to sleep when her nap has been too short, and both of us confused and exhausted. I've read NCSS and have asked DH to read it this week so we can try the plan she has towards the back about getting them back to sleep by themselves easier. From what I understand the idea is to do what you do (rock, bounce, nurse, whatever), but just start doing it for shorter amounts of time and then pull back the physical interventions little by little as they adjust and accept the slightly reduced/altered routine. What I really like about her plan is the idea that it's always ok to give up on the new attempts for the time being and just go back to doing whatever you have to do to get everyone back asleep and then just try again another time. We need to try this soon because we all need more sleep!


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## Bellita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald* 
Hello
Argh.. I wish things were going better here. I'm stumped..

DS goes to bed without nursing for all naps and at the start of the night. BUT he wakes at 11,2,4 and 6 every night.. nearly like clockwork.. Sometimes it is 12,2,and 5 but it is usually 11,2,4 and 6

I have been sending DH in and he resettles after a few minutes of patting.. WHY IS HE STILL WAKING UP??? He can put himself to sleep every other time.

If he won't settle, I'll nurse him.. often I'll nurse him at the 11/12 wakeup.. thinking he is probably hungry.. since it has been a while since dinner.. but the rest??! I'm really exhausted...

My DS also goes to bed without nursing. DH rocks him and plays him music. For naps, he rides in his Bjorn with a pacifier. Again, no nursing. So...it is hard to say why he also wakes up the every two hours, same as yours...I think we need to eliminate the pacifier completely...


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## heidirk

We lost the paci about 6 months ago, made no difference in night wakings. (sorry







)


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## chantald

We never had a paci.. so who knows. What is making me so frustrated is that for every nap and going down at night he goes down wide awake.. no rocking, no patting, no nursing.. nothing.. we put him in bed and walk away.. and he goes to sleep without a peep.. BUT if he wakes in the night, he needs us.. it can take less than 30 seconds of patting and he is back to sleep.. IF he can do it every other time, WHY are night wakings different? There isnt' any information on dealing with this type of waker out there.. Everything says "how they fall asleep will help them learn how to self sooth.." Umm.. what happens in our case???
I know night wakings are normal. I know all about sleep cycles and light sleep and arousals and soothing back to sleep.. I expect to wake up at night with my children.. once.. twice.. but not 7, 10, 15 times a night.. every night.

I'm just getting frustrated..


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## PPK

Hi ladies!

I bought the book a couple of months ago, but DS just turned 4 months and I've decided to finish the book (completed it tonight), and start the plan.

Ds is really a pretty ok sleeper, but wakes the second half of the night *alot*. We co-sleep and bf.

I started to swaddle him at 2 mo. and that doubled the naptimes and stretches at night. We're fairly consistent with naps, 3 per day, 1.5-2hrs. each (all thanks to learning to properly swaddle







). Bedtime has always fluctuated and I've usually put him to bed with me, so I realize he isn't getting quite enough sleep.

I've been doing surprisingly well on so little sleep since he's been born, but I can feel its taking a toll on me lately. Anyways, I don't expect him to sleep 12 solid hrs. or anything...but I'm all for a big reduction of night wakings. I'd love 1-2, who knows, maybe eventually none









I have been pulling him off for the past two months or so, and implementing some techniques, but very randomly...I did experiment a couple of times w/an earlier bedtime and he was sleeping better...if I wasn't so sleep deprived I'd have remebered that and kept it up!

Wish us luck!

Jen


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## PPK

Awesome! I know its not supposed to help after just one nite, but it seems like it did! Since we've used some of the techniques, I think he understood the ppo, I tried the chin holding too and it really worked a couple of times.

He slept from 9:30 (tried from earlier, but not tired) until 12 (I got to bed), he woke to feed and as he slowed I pulled him off and then I think I held his chin and he fell right back asleep. He slept until 4!!! Then got up to eat at 4 and when he was dozing I did the same things and I think he woke a couple of times until 7:30, but it was quick nursing/chin holding. The chin holding is a great trick!!

I'm relieved because for most of the night he was snuggled right against me, I was worried that it'd come down to me sleeping further from him.


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## chantald

That's great Jenrose9! Hope it continues!!!!!


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## PPK

What's the logic behind holding the chin? It certainly works, but I can't figure out why.


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## Bellita

Howdy, all...last night was pretty rough. The good news is that DS went to bed at 7pm, which was great. (The night before it was 9:30.) I used Pantley's idea about putting baby down at the first signs of tiredness, even if it means jettisoning part of the "bedtime routine." So, we skipped the books and songs and went straight to bed. DS slept until 6:45am, but I use the term "slept" loosely--he was up pretty much every hour between 12pm and 6. Mommy is tired!!!

I did PPO almost every waking, except at 2, when I was just too exhausted to deal. I PPO'ed my breast a few times, and then would PPO the pacifier until he slept. (All the unlatching and latching hurts my nipples!!)

I had forgotten about the chin thing..I'll have to remember to do it tonight. Maybe that will reduce the number of times that DS is rooting for the breast. You press at the top of the chin under the lip, right?


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## babymaggie

I've read this book and the one for toddlers I don't know how many times. I guess I need to get DS to read it since he isn't cooperating with any of Pantley's methods, lol. Sometimes I wonder what the heck is up with this kid. All I ever hear is how difficult naps are. Not in our house -- I can put him down for a nap so easy it isn't funny (even though normally he only naps for an hour, this morning so far he is past 2 hours) but going down at nighttime is an absolute joke. What is the deal with this???


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## PPK

Definately do the chin thing, its what seems to get ds to drift back to sleep after ppo'ing, or if he sometimes is having a light waking. Just what you described, a light hold on his chin, below the lip, I do it so he doesn't move his jaw, he seems to fall asleep within a few breaths (unless he's still really hungry).

Last night was still pretty good. I put him down at 8:30 and he 'slept' until 8am. I got to bed at 10:30 (he was crying), so I nursed him, ppo'd, and I think he more or less slept till 3! After that he was up quite a bit, but we kept doing short bursts of nursing/ppo'ing (I think I fell asleep once or twice during nursing), but he's definately getting more easily settled and isn't as restless during his wakings.

I need to remember not to just shove my boob in his mouth every time he stirs. I did this alot last night (even though ppo'd), I was just in a tired haze.


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## heidirk

doing the chin thing sets the baby's tongue in the sweet spot on the roof ofthe mouth. It's comforting to have pressure there, and they don't notice the lack of nipple as much.

It came down to having DH totally take over bedtime for DS. I think for some babes after a while nursing is just not a sufficient distraction.


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## PPK

Agreed. DS is able to get him to settle just by lying there w/him, there's no way that's happening when I tried it.

Thanks for the info on the chin thing...makes sense.


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## Bellita

Good luck tonight, mamas!


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## LaFlaca1226

I'm glad to see this thread. I am not doing NCSS, but my good friend has decided to abandon CIO and try NCSS. I didn't know much about it, but after reading some of this thread, I'm glad to know that it seems much gentler than CIO. Good luck to you and your babies!


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## Bellita

nevermind


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## PPK

Just want to keep logging our nights..

Night #4, last night, he woke every 2 hrs., but he was able to settle back into sleep quickly and a few times just by rubbing his chest or holding his chin.


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## Bellita

We were also up about every 2 hrs...I wanted to log details of what has been going on, too, but I was reading the AP, CIO thread that got locked yesterday PM, and it made me pretty upset. I don't think I am going to be coming to this forum area for a while...I am in much too fragile a state to deal with any kind of harsh criticism and judgment directed toward me or anyone else. (not that there has been in this particular thread, but..) I know that what I am doing is right for me and my family, and that's the support I will go on for now.


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## PPK

I don't know if anyone's still interested in this thread, but we're on or around day 10 today and have gone from ok, to good, to bad, to good, to terrible, and finally, to what I consider the root of our sleep issue









For ds and I, its been a big transitional period emotionally. I realized it was more an emotional attatchment and fear of change on both our parts. I see he was afraid of losing me as a constant presence if he stopped all the frequent wakings and nursing to sleep. I also felt a loss when it came down to the idea of him not 'needing' me so much. We had an amazing bedtime routine tonight and I'm going to make him (and myself, although different) flower essence combonation, focusing on stepping into a new phase of being while also adding a remedy to help nurture othe mother/child bond and help him feel this is always present, particularly in the Divine Mother essence.

Ok, well I don't know how much of that is coherent to anyone reading, but just wanted to share and hope this may help anyone who's going through a similar process


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## PPK

Day 14 (I think)...

I've been pretty consistent, although the first week I did cause ds to miss two naps and was late starting his bedtime 'quiet hour' once or twice.

Anyways, last night there was improvement. He went down at 7:15 (a bit earlier than usual), slept for 3 hrs, ate, slept and woke in about 1.5 hrs later to eat again (I think this was my doing though, I was up and down alot...I couldn't sleep).

Then slept 3.5 hrs (!), ate, then 2, then spotty from 5:30-7:15 b/c he wanted to get up for the day.

Each time he ate he pulled himself off before falling completely asleep. He's doing really well learning how to sleep w/o the nipple in his mouth, but its taken alot of patience and *persistence*.

Its been so cool watching him learn how to do this. Its been great for both of us in alot of ways, but these 2 weeks just about drove me insane b/c it does take alot to stay up at night and teach him what to do...but worth it!

Hope it keeps progressing


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## heidirk

Here it is!

*Jenrose9-* Hi! we're still interested!


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## PPK

some small improvements happened, then two horrid nights (teething, I'm pretty sure bc he was bititng, crying every time he went to latch and awake every 40 minutes).

I've given him Hylands teething tablets the past two nights, so he's been resting quite peacefully, but can't say how much of that is the homeopathics.

He's usually pulling off after eating though, and I never wake to find him still latched (although that was never a huge issue for us).

I see where I still need to adjust his naps a bit to fit in a later quick nap, otherwise he's been getting overtired and that makes for a crappy night usually...

I'm thinking I'm going to sleep on a mattress on the floor about 5 feet from him and see if that helps his night wakings. I feel bad about not being closer to him, but if it works, then I can hopefully sleep up against him again in a week or two.

I've seen some improvement from the beginning in that he doesn't wake at 3 or 4 and fuss and kick for hours. He still can be restless, but he can usually settle and doze in those hours.

The downside is that at night when I nurse him down and leave he's been waking 20 or 40 minutes later, and again in another 30 minutes or so...(he never used to do this).

Before, dh used to be able to sometimes resettle him, but since I've been following the nccs advice of going in quickly to get him back to sleep faster (via nursing) and not let him escalate into full blown crying (which can sometimes happen when dh tries to soothe him), I feel like he's almost gottten *more* dependent on having me near him...

I dunno, but need to keep working on it, I don't have much other option. DH doesn't help at night (or even share the same room), and letting things go back to the way they were wasn't working either..they were getting progressiely worse.

So that's it for now, will update in a few days!

Is anyone out there trying this, or are we the sole guinea pigs?


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## MartysMommy

hi- yes we are trying the NCSS. Or , I should say.... I am! DH thinks it's all crap. But, guess who does all the nighttime parenting???? That would be me!
I am in a bad, bad mood right now. PMS-ing and my nipples hurt from the off/on action from teething. Plus, DH took a lovely nap today knowing how exhausted I am from being up all night. Baby wouldn't nap- but 3 yr old did so DH decided he would too instead of taking baby for awhile! UGH! I am so grumpy! Lack of sleep is sooooooooooooo BAD for me! I turn into the Mommy Monster as you can see! Just needed to VENT and get some love from my fellow Mammas! We have to stick together!

So, back to NCSS.... hmmmmm. I'll start a new post that is more positive. This one sucks because I vented all over it with my grumpy mood!


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## MartysMommy

Yes, I am interested in keeping a NCSS thread going...
I don't do the logs, though I should. I've read Pantley's other books- all very good. Basically, what I have gotten from the books is this:
try to do what feels right for you & your child and does not lead to your child or you crying endlessly. And then it offers some great tips that work sometimes for some people and sometimes don't work at all. It's all about getting things right for you at the moment. stuff that worked for us 3-4 months ago no longer work. DS#2 is 8 months old and has been teething since he was 3 months yet NO TEETH have cut through yet! UGH!
We co-sleep and also try to put him in the crib (in our room still) at the start of the night. Naps are like this: AM's when big bro doesn't have pre-school- put him in bouncy seat after being nursed, fed, changed, etc and put bouncy seat in bathroom while showering and singing songs to him. He'll fall asleep most AM's and nap in the bouncy (in the bathroom with the white noise of the fan gong) for a good 2 hours. Afternnon naps are dependent on big bro taking one as well and Mommy having time to lay with him!
We do have a very night time routine and he is usually asleep (with nursing) by 8:30. I wish I could just put him down in the crib and he'd drift off to sleep for his naps and night-night, but he just isn't there yet and may never be there! But- I keep trying!

The book says that if baby is teething, sick, recently had vax or it's a stressful time or hoilday time, the NCSS may not work. Guess what... we've had at least one of these going on for the last 5 months so it's no wonder it isn't working! Now- how to get DH on board?!!!! Did she right a book about that too? hee hee!


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## PPK

yep, same w/ my dh! right down to taking an afternoon nap when I need his help









i always have to bite my tongue when he says he's tired....ummmm, he gets a solid 7+hrs every night undisturbed....

ok, my rant over


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## PPK

The past two nights were pretty good, I think two nights ago he slept 3.5, 3.5, 2, then 1.

Last night after I came to bed he slept 2, 3.5, 2, and 2.

The difference has been longer stretches (at least once a night) and in the early morning (4-7) he isn't very restless anymore. Last night ws the first time he ever slept solidly from 3-5, then 5-7.


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## heidirk




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## augusta's_mom

Greetings,

I'm pretty much at the end of my rope with fatigue from not sleeping. We sleep with our baby in the bed and I'd been thinking that meant we couldn't really do any type of sleep training. But this thread gives me a bit of hope. Are the methods of NCSS adaptable for cosleeping?

Thanks!

Lila


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## Abylite

I'd like to "join" this thread too!!! I've recently read the book and now that DS is a it over 3 months...I am starting transitioning him to the crib. Cosleeping is not working for us...refluxy son, I have to get out of bed to settle him anyway, etc. I posted on this too...

Right now I'm nursing and rocking him to sleep and I think this is ok....just started having him try out crib for naps, etc. belly sleeping and patting his back for a while is working good. When would I NOT use nursing and rocking to sleep? When he's older? I'm trying to introduce a lovey blanket and his little aquarium "music" too...

I wish I would have read this book for my DD....!!! We are ok now...but it was a challenging first year with her!

Lila~ Hello....just joining this thread. There is alot of mention of cosleepig in this book too...no advice to give at this point though!


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## Nantucket

Oh, I'm so glad I found this thread- I'd like to join too! I'm a first time mom to a beatuiful 3 week old and have been I've been enjoying this special time nursing him to sleep but it is so tiring not to mention painful on my nipples to nurse him every hour in the night! I could stand the fatigue now since I'm not working but what about when my maternity leave ends?! That's my big fear!

I haven't read the NCSS book but have read about 3 others... from reading some of the threads, it sounds like a lot of the similar strategies just presented differently..... I haven't tried the PPO but will start tonight.....

My question for those mamas who've read the book are, how early can you start breaking the sleep association?.... I've tried the CIO a couple of times cause that's what some of these books have said but it hasn't worked nor has it felt right....


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## PPK

We had a great nite last night!! He slept a 5 hr stretch!!!! The past few nights I've been watching him put hiself back to sleep during his wakings. Sometimes he has to keep trying for 5 or 10 minutes and sometimes he needs help (nursing for a few minutes), but now he's getting to where he isn't really interested in the boob anymore, but just wants to go to sleep.

I'm glad there are moms interested that are here









I think we are at day 25 or 30, so for us its taken a while, but has been showing results, very gradually, but more so lately.

Nantucket~Good for you to stop CIO. There are several threads here w/links to how damaging it is for babies to go through it (long-term as well as short). It severely damages their trust in you as a parent, and sets them up for a higher propensity for anxiety and panic attacks later in life. It does damage to their develoing nervouss system and brain pathways that are getting developed (need to find that article) Here's one good article, but please do more research and you'll find you'll be so happy you quit using it! :

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html

The NCSS is a very gentle method that basically lets them know they're in a safe place and if their needs are **always** met (even if that just means bieng with mom). You need to be ready to have a ton of patience the first two weeks, and also, I was even more sleep deprived at first, but it really is working, so definately worth it 100 times over! And most inportantly, he's learne something so important and didn't have to cry! Its been a very bonding expereince.

We co sleep and bf in bed and its worked for us.

We started ppo'ing at around 2 months and it was working, but then I slacked on it around 3 months and around 3-4months is when he develoed the suck to sleep association really strong. In hindsight, around 2.5 months for ds would have been a good time to be more diligent, but every one is different. The NCsS has solutions and things you can do before 4months. and if you stick with them, who knows, maybe you'll never need to read ast that point







You ***do*** need to be diligent about it and basically figure out you daily schedule to accomodate his naps and bedtme until it gets established

My keyboard is having issues so I can't type much more right now, but please, if you have any questions regarding CIO,or think you might resort to it again, please, please pm me, or post here to ask any more questions, I'm hapy to help.

Sorry for the typos, we had a tea spill on computer yesterday...its official, ds has reached the 'keep everythng out of reach' stage









Best wishes to you ladies!


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## PPK

The past two nights (so every night this week) are still improving!

Two nights ago he slept a 4.5 hr. stretch, then every 2 hrs after that. Each waking he fussed bit, sometimes didn't want to nurse, but just kept trying till he fell back asleep on his own.

Last night was about the same, except the first stretch was 3 hrs. I think he would have slept longer, but I seem to wake him when I come to bed. When I first put him down, he pulled off after eating and was awake, then turned his head and went to sleep!

He's doing great! He gets so excited in the morning because he knows I feel good from a good night's sleep









Always remember to give tons of positive reinforcement!


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## Danielle13

My 3.5 mo old is not sleeping. THe NCSS isn't working either







I'm at a loss and completely exhausted. we're waking every .5 - .75 hours. and naptime isn't any better.


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## Abylite

Danielle13~ I have a 3.5 month old too....takes time and alot of figuring out!

We are working on the NCSS for daytime naps since he will be going to daycare in a few weeks. He's been napping at least 1 time a day so far...the rest of the time in the carseat, swing, sling..etc

At night...we co-sleep and I don't mind him waking to nurse....lately he has been getting better at it (going back to sleep right away, not refluxy, etc) and I can pop him off my nipple after about 5-10 minutes.

My question is...what if I don't "want" to go to bed as early as DS wants? I do wear him in the sling until "bedtime" ...but then I have to have a snack, brush teeth, pee....etc and it wakes him... He doesn't just "lay down" with me and go to sleep. I have to sling, bounce, or nurse/rock all over again.

Any tips? I've tried laying him in the bed...but it's like he "knows" I'm not there and wakes up no matter how long I wait until he is asleep.


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## Danielle13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Abylite* 

My question is...what if I don't "want" to go to bed as early as DS wants? I do wear him in the sling until "bedtime" ...but then I have to have a snack, brush teeth, pee....etc and it wakes him... He doesn't just "lay down" with me and go to sleep. I have to sling, bounce, or nurse/rock all over again.

Any tips? I've tried laying him in the bed...but it's like he "knows" I'm not there and wakes up no matter how long I wait until he is asleep.


I feel you on this one. I feel like I'm a grown woman with a bedtime all over again! even when I can lay valley down I don't want to get up and do the things I want, or hang out with my husband because her sleeping is so aweful I want to sleep when ever I can. I guess its jsut an aweful phase


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## lld

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Abylite* 
Danielle13~ I have a 3.5 month old too....takes time and alot of figuring out!

We are working on the NCSS for daytime naps since he will be going to daycare in a few weeks. He's been napping at least 1 time a day so far...the rest of the time in the carseat, swing, sling..etc

At night...we co-sleep and I don't mind him waking to nurse....lately he has been getting better at it (going back to sleep right away, not refluxy, etc) and I can pop him off my nipple after about 5-10 minutes.

My question is...what if I don't "want" to go to bed as early as DS wants? I do wear him in the sling until "bedtime" ...but then I have to have a snack, brush teeth, pee....etc and it wakes him... He doesn't just "lay down" with me and go to sleep. I have to sling, bounce, or nurse/rock all over again.

Any tips? I've tried laying him in the bed...but it's like he "knows" I'm not there and wakes up no matter how long I wait until he is asleep.

I know it might not be the answer you want, but...time. I remember going to bed at the same time as my son every night - I'm a single mom and since it's just the 2 of us in the house, it didn't bother me as much. I don't know when the transition happened (I think around 4 months) but I remember one night I tried creeping away after he fell asleep...and he didn't wake up! Now I put him down a few hours before I go to bed - he does wake up some before my bedtim, but it's much better than before. <y son also did much better when I helped him fall asleep (rocking him in my arms) then layed him in the bed...then laid down beside him and waited until he was in a deep sleep - much more inconvenient than the sling, but once he is asleep I can usually get a couple of hours before he wakdes up. Good luck and keep trying - one day it will all come together


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## heidirk

With the 3-4 mos babes, it still it can be all about needing movement to help them shut out the world so they can calm down. Remember, living outside the womb is intensely stimulating for babes, and some can't 'tune it out' on their own. DS is almost 19 mos, and NCCS worked well for us, but the author says it is NOT a quick fix. That can seem almost undoable at that stage of sleep deprivation.

We waited until the third sigh/shudder after he fell asleep. We'd be able to lay him down then. If you're not cosleeping, I hope the crib is in your room, lay a nursing flannel or similar smells-like-mommy object in the crib with the baby.

I can also recommend NightimeParenting and Parenting the high need baby/child by DR. William Sears. He had 8 kids....and they did NOT do CIO.

Good luck ladies....I'll be







: for a while.


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## PPK

Another great night









This week we've been doing great, major changes! gotta run so will post more later...

Oh, ds also started solids this week, that helped too I think.


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## Danielle13

ok, so heres whats going on on day 5. naptime is a little longer and night time is 4-5 hours first stretch but still 45min to 1hr for the rest of the night...she'll nurse for 2 minutes and fall back asleep. any ideas on how to fix this?


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## momlij

hi. i found this thread and i read the first page, but i can not sit through reading all 12.







just too much. soooo..... here's where we are at. as a new born dd was awesome. at 40 days (i remember because we had a special service at church for us on her 40 days) she went to bed and slept 12 hours! my boobs hurt so bad! LOL i kept checking in on her and she was fine. i use the bassinet when they are so so little. it makes me nervous to have such a tiny tiny baby in my bed. anyhow she knew how to get her thumb and would just suck away and sleep. she was always sleeping between 12-13 hours a night! at one of our checkups i even asked the doc if i should wake her to feed her. she said no, she's gaining weight and is happy so let her sleep. that is until about 4.5 months old. she learned how to roll over and she started teething and everything just went to hell. she is now 8 months old, has 6 teeth and generally only sleeps for 2-3 hours at a stretch. when a tooth is ready to break through she wakes every 1-2 hours! drives me batty. oh- she does sleep in bed with us now and we are still breastfeeding. she stopped sucking her thumb around the same time she learned to roll over and when she started teething. i would have guessed she would keep doing it for comfort, but she just stopped. and she doesn't use paci's either. so now she goes to bed between 7 and 7:30 the past 3-4 days. it's the only sort of "schedule" we've had in months! around the holidays with everyone home she wouldn't go to bed some nights till midnight!








anyhow- i am so exhausted and when i was at the bookstore recently i found this book. thumbed through it, it sounded good since she doesn't cio and she even bf and coslept so i bought it. i'm only 1/2 way through it. i've tried keeping a log, just so i can really see how much sleep she gets total, but honestly the first few wakings at night i jot down and then the rest i forget in my 1/2 awake state. she wakes between 7 and 8 am (that's when the rest of us get up to get the kids out to school) and doesn't really nap during the day. sometimes she'll stay alseep for an hour, and others like today she slept for about 20 minutes all day! by 5 pm she's cranky and ready for bed. just so happens that's when i'm doing dinner and making sure everyone else is done with homework! and there's no way i'm letting her go down for the night that early. we tried before and then she's up around 8 or 9 ready for a few good hours of play! so i keep her up and start our bedtime routine around 6:30. we shower, i let her play in the water, we do a lotion massage, nurse and then cuddle if that doesn't make her fall asleep. i'm trying to introduce a lovey just so she'll have something for comfort while i'm not there. a LOT of the times she wakes up within the first hour of falling asleep and fusses/cries. if i go in i can lay next to her put my hand on her back and she quiets immediatley and falls back asleep. so i was thinking if she had a lovey that would comfort her. anyhow- that's where we are at now. i'll be checking in on here more! it's so good to know i'm not alone......


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## PPK

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
ok, so heres whats going on on day 5. naptime is a little longer and night time is 4-5 hours first stretch but still 45min to 1hr for the rest of the night...she'll nurse for 2 minutes and fall back asleep. any ideas on how to fix this?


things are improving overall? ds took quite a while (still working on it) to fall asleep w/out nursing. Whenever he wakes he maybe half the time will be able to fall back asleep (a HUGE deal!) and the other half of the time he nurses for a minutue to help himself out and fall asleep..this si getting to be less and less though, but we've been at it for a month.


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## PPK

Good luck Momlij! I'm sure things will improve. BTW, that's really cool your church celebrates the 40th day, I recognize the importance of the first 40, but haven't really heard of a church doing anything for it...very neat.


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## momlij

jenrose- yea it's pretty neat. they do prayers on the first day the baby is born, naming prayers on the 8 day and then prayers on the 40 day too. i like it all.









well, this is probably like the 4 or 5 day she's gotten tired and ready for bed between 7 and 7:30. i'm starting to like it! of course i'll go and count on it and she'll change! LOL we still wake between 7:30 and 8 am. since the tooth broke through she only woke up a handful of times last night. i'll try to count it tonight and try to look at the clock to see how far apart they are. she did manage to take a nap today from 2 pm till 3:30!!!!!!!!! i was in heaven! i actually got some laundry done and some bills paid! wowwee! and she slept with her baby at nap and is in there with her now! we nursed with her and carried her around all day. we'll see if it helps her with the first waking within the hour of her going down. maybe after she gets used to it more it'll help her. dunno. neither of my other kids had a lovey, but again neither of them had the sleep irregularities this one has.


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## PPK

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momlij* 
jenrose- yea it's pretty neat. they do prayers on the first day the baby is born, naming prayers on the 8 day and then prayers on the 40 day too. i like it all.









well, this is probably like the 4 or 5 day she's gotten tired and ready for bed between 7 and 7:30. i'm starting to like it! of course i'll go and count on it and she'll change! LOL we still wake between 7:30 and 8 am. since the tooth broke through she only woke up a handful of times last night. i'll try to count it tonight and try to look at the clock to see how far apart they are. she did manage to take a nap today from 2 pm till 3:30!!!!!!!!! i was in heaven! i actually got some laundry done and some bills paid! wowwee! and she slept with her baby at nap and is in there with her now! we nursed with her and carried her around all day. we'll see if it helps her with the first waking within the hour of her going down. maybe after she gets used to it more it'll help her. dunno. neither of my other kids had a lovey, but again neither of them had the sleep irregularities this one has.


great! I wouldn't sweat the clock though. If you know what you're wakings were like on the first day or so, that's good enough. Just chart every 10th night or so. I'm a 'clock watcher' though no matter what. She just wants you to be *aware* of progress, its easy to not notice he little changes.


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## roses1001

How do you do the chin holding thing after the ppo? I've read the description in NCSS, but I just can't figure out how to actually do it. For example, if I'm nursing on my right side, I unlatch him with my left index finger. When exactly do I start holding his chin and with what finger?


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## PPK

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roses1001* 
How do you do the chin holding thing after the ppo? I've read the description in NCSS, but I just can't figure out how to actually do it. For example, if I'm nursing on my right side, I unlatch him with my left index finger. When exactly do I start holding his chin and with what finger?

I notice it usually works better if I hold it lightly before I even try to ppo. I do it w.one hand. I think I hold w.the back of my index and break the latch w.same thumb. Although, it'd problably be a bit gentler if I use two hands.


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## roses1001

Thanks jenrose. I just can't figure out how to do it in a way that works for us. I've been paying more attention, and I actually unlatch with my index finger then pull the nipple out with my middle finger. It disrupts him more whenever I try anything different because that's what I've always done.

I realized a few days ago that I think my baby (17 mo) isn't getting enough sleep. So, I've been getting him to bed earlier--he used to be asleep between 7 or 7:15, now I try to have him asleep by 6:30 or a little after. He's been sleeping later in the morning--usually almost 7am instead of 6am. I'm not sure why he started sleeping later. Sleep begets sleep, I guess. He used to take one nap around 12:00, but he really gets tired earlier. So, I've started putting him down around 10am. He's been sleeping for about 1hr 20min, which is slightly longer than I was able to get him to nap for before. Unfortunately, I can never get him to take a second nap. He would take one at 3:30 or later, but then that would mess up bedtime. Don't know what to do about that. At first, after making these changes, he seemed happier and more rested. The weird thing now is that he seems to be getting more tired and grumpy the last couple days. I just don't get it--he's getting more sleep, so he should be more rested. Today he woke up at almost 7am, then he was grumpy for a nap at 9:20. Shouldn't he be having longer awake times than that?

Baby's crying, I have to go, but does anyone have any insights? Ideas?


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## PPK

He's alot older than my ds so I don't know what an average awake time for his age is. I know that when my ds misses a nap, or takes a short snooze in the car instead of a full nap, he sometimes gets more wired and then doesn't want to sleep as usual. I do find that the more regular and plentiful his sleep, the more he's wants sleep. For ds, its about 2 or 2.5 hrs. of awake time before his next nap and he's 5months.

We've had timing issues w/the last nap as well. He wakes at around 8, naps 10-12, 2-4, that leaves a looong stretch to bedtime (8:30). Sometimes if I'm up at 7am and he seems sort of awake, I'll just get him up, then evrything is pushed back 1hr. and he can get a quick nap from 5:30-6 in (like now







). Once he's overtired, he can get fussy and kick me constatntly while I'm trying to get him down and it can take forever.

As far as unlatching, have you tried to use the same finger you break the seal with to stick in between his gums? This lets your nipple slide out. I don't think we do this anymore, but I remember we used to. I don't think I've ever had to put 2 fingers in his mouth. As long as I stick in a finger alongside his gums and hear the seal unsuction, my nipple usually slides out on its own.

Also, for the second week of ppo, we got into a 'battle of the wills' where ds figured out what was going on and became adamant about trying to stay latched on. We seriously had to do it about 10 times sometimes. We still go through that sometimes. I'm not as strict as I'd like to be about it (I think I'd be getting even better results if I were), but at night I end up falling asleep most times, and if he's having a bad day, I'll usuallly just let him fall asleep on the boob. I'm going to start getting more disciplined with it though. He is still getting more independent w/putting himself to sleep. He's been pulling himself off and then turning is head and going to sleep about 50% of the time.

Next goal is how to get dh to put him down.


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## heidirk

hey guys, sounds like we're all making a little progress!

With the sleep begets sleep thing, it certainly does. That's why Pantley said to try to stabilize naps before rearranging bedtime. Although with DS bedtime went easier so we just rolled with it, and naps came into line. I've also noticed that during growth spurts Ds needs way more sleep and will even add an extra nap for a week to catchup.

I so look forward to when all his teeth are in!


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenrose9* 
I see where I still need to adjust his naps a bit to fit in a later quick nap, otherwise he's been getting overtired and that makes for a crappy night usually..
The downside is that at night when I nurse him down and leave he's been waking 20 or 40 minutes later, and again in another 30 minutes or so...(he never used to do this).....Before, dh used to be able to sometimes resettle him, but since I've been following the nccs advice of going in quickly to get him back to sleep faster (via nursing) and not let him escalate into full blown crying (which can sometimes happen when dh tries to soothe him), I feel like he's almost gottten *more* dependent on having me near him...

Is anyone out there trying this, or are we the sole guinea pigs?









same with all of the above! i am especially interested in talking more about the last bit.

i am new to this NCSS thread....finally got the book....

my ds is 6 months.....started sleeping less and less arond 4 months, but i could generally count on a 3 hour stretch. before 4 months he wouldn't go down at night until 11-12pm, but like i said i could count on a few solid blocks, and he would sleep until 9 or even 10. at about 4 months he started hard core teething, and for the last 2 months he's been going 2 hours at the longest, but i did manage to move his bedtime up to 8ish.

right now, we're at our worst: taking an hour of nursing to go down at night, often followed by waking up after 15 minutes or so, and again after an hour. if i'm going to get a 2 hour stretch in, it'll come next, followed by waking every 20-60 minutes until about 7.

i'm going insane. and dh has been out of town for 3 weeks.

naps are equally as horrible. since about 3 months old, ds will only nap on me or in my lap or being carried, and we generally won't even nap while being worn anymore (at least not for as long as he used to). i went through a period of trying to put him to nap in his cosleeper, in the bed, on the couch, anywhere. but he would always wake up after 10-15 minutes, sometimes 30.

then i read the NCSS and she is all about naps, so i figure better to have him sleep a solid block, even if it is on my lap. so we've spent the last week trying to get in 60-90 minutes of solid nap, and we've been successful, but it hasn't improved our night sleeping.

we co-sleep and have tried all kinds of variation: in the co-sleeper, sleeping cuddled up close, sleeping without contact, etc. can't find any pattern of improvements. i do find if i nurse side-lying half asleep he is more likely to wake up again in 30 minutes wanting to nurse more. so generally i get us both up in bed, positioned, latched, etc. them re-wrapped in a blanket and back to sleep.

lately he does not fall back asleep easily, which he used to do. he is restless and wiggly and will continue kicking and fussing until i pick him up. i've been trying to pick him up and not nurse, but rock or cuddle instead. it works about 2 out of 10 times. but then i put him down sleeping and he'll be up in 20 minutes anyway. i know teething is probably a part of all this.

last night after one of the many wakings, and within an hour of nursing, i let him cry while i held him, for the first time. this lasted about 5 minutes and it was awul so i nursed him back to sleep.

guess i should wrap up this book now. wheni have time i hope to review the thread's past posts.

jenrose, your comments above about sneaking the nipple in before they wake up to prolong the sleep, doesn't she recommend that just for naptime?

wishing you all some sleep tonight!


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## PPK

grrrr....

the past few nights have been rough. I have no idea what's going on. I think since I'm so tired I've been falling asleep while he's nursing at night and not pulling him off. I think I'm too quick to put my breast in his mouth at the first whimper he makes too...he's been waking up crying lately and falling asleep at night and some naps he's been inconsolable, hopefully this is just a weird passing fluke. I'm going to be better at night with keeping up


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## nolansmummy

I just read this book. I love it. My dh had gotten into the bad habit of letting my dd sleep only on him in the rocking chair, This was fine when he was home every night i guess (although the 3 yr old has felt a bit left out i'm sure), but now he's working 5 nights a week, and she would not sleep for me. Not on me, beside me, in her crib, on our bed no where. She was up every 1/2 hour. Not good for any of us.

We started a routine and it helped almost immediatly. My dh cannot be involved in it past bath time. This is backwards from a lot of people i'm sure.

Our routine starts at 4:30 where we turn off the tv for the day. We used to let ds watch a show after dinner, but we are no longer doing that. Then around 6 or so we all eat dinner, then afterwards is bath time.

Then we give massage, read three stories, and cuddle. First i put ds to bed, and lie with him for a few minutes, then all lights go out and music goes on.

DD gets fed and rocked until her eyes start rolling back. Then into her cosleeper she goes. Its set up as a pack n play now, in our living room. She'll stand up a few times, but i put her back down, rub her back and giver her a binkie, After a few times she's out.

She'll only get up once during the night now, around 2, and eat around 4 oz. We try and fill her up in the day, but i'm satisfied with one night time waking for now. She will then sleep until 7 or 8.

Our goal is to get her into her crib which is in our room. We tried to last nigth and she just didnt' sleep as long. I think she likes that the living room is a familiar area, the packnplay is always there, and its comforting. We might just end up moving the cosleeper to our room.

We havent hit any bumps in the road yet, although i am sure there will be some. I know when your sleep deprived you just want to revert back to doing what you know will get your babe to sleep quickest.

As for nap time - well she took one 3 hour nap yesterday. I don't know if thats normal for her age though - almost 11 months. My ds took two naps until he was almost 3. This is our next thing to work on. - i know we did it backwards well we really care more about nighttime sleep anyhow. She's not grumpy during the day now, so maybe she just needs less sleep.


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## ladyleigh

I'm happy to find you sleepless mamas! I just posted in Life With a Babe then saw this thread.

Like others, my ds was sleeping well (up 2x a night) until about 3.5 months and his first teeth. For the past 6 weeks he's up 3-7 times between 8pm and 6am! Ack.

I realize he's not napping enough so that has been my goal. He takes about three 25-45 minute naps a day. When he wakes up I try to nurse him or wear him back to sleep, but he usually is just up. Most of the time he wakes up in a good mood, but sometimes he wakes up cranky and tired.

The bedtime routine is hard for us- we need to figure out what works. So far its just cuddles and nursing in the family bed.

I'm interested in others progress!

Jenrose- good to 'see' you again, august mama.

leigh


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## ladyleigh

my goal this week

this week i'm trying to get him to nap more
1. longer naps (putting him back to sleep)
or
2. quiter days and more naps, even if short


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## ladyleigh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
i'm going insane. and dh has been out of town for 3 weeks.











this sounds like a typical bad night for us- usually I end up kicking my dh and ds out of bed around 4:30am on those nights so I can get at least a little sleep. my dh just left town for 10 days so now i'm on my own as well.


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## PPK

Hi ladyleigh









today was great for naps, he didn't wake at all during them and bedtime was suer easy too and he's been aseep for 2.5 hrs now. I'm headed to bed so hopefully we have a good night. Last few nights were tough, but I think his tummy was bothering him, he threw up today (a first).

Anyways, he naps great. 10-12, 2-4, then a half hour or so at 6, then in bed around 8:45. I still swadle him and I know that's a huge help for longer naps.

Good luck mamas!


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## PPK

woo hoo!

we had an awesome night last night! slept a 4.5 hr. stretch after that a 2hr. then 2.5hr. then at 5:30 we were both wide awake, but I wanted to try to see if i could sleep some more and ds was doing great laying with me quietly and putting himself to sleep for catnaps till 7:30.


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## ladyleigh

woo hoo jen! i know that good mood when you get enough sleep.

we had good naps yesterday- 3 naps between 60-90 min. 2 were in his sling and one in his crib. i'm trying the swaddle right now.

last night was good and bad. he slept
1.5 hours
i came to bed
3.45
.45
1
1
.15

the long stretch was great but then i was up a lot between 3 am and 6 am. he was up for the day at 6:15. my dh is out of town so i was up with him- tired and frustrated.


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## PPK

I understand. dh doesn't help w/the nighttime scene at all, he even sleeps in a seperate room







:. He works though, so I understand and if I'm slipping into the danger zone, I drop off ds to him (very infrequent though).

Yes. sleep is good. I've been so productive today its almost scary.


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## ladyleigh

Napping is getting a little better in just these few days. He's taking 3 naps close to or over 60 min.

I'm going to keep working with it this week...

I'm still nursing him to sleep when he wakes up at night. Patting/rocking don't help. I have started pushing him away from me or turning my back and that helps the nursing sessions to be shorter (sometimes.)


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## PPK

I still nurse him to sleep for naps antd the beginning of the night and its been 1.5 months that we've been doing nccs. But to be truthful, I'm not super rigid about unlatching at night, I usually fall asleep. But ds will unlatch himself and fall asleep. Last night he did pretty well again. It was a later bedtime, but I find that 9 actually works better for us. I don't get as much alone time w/dh, but I go to bed closer to when ds does so I get a longer stretch of sleep (more important to me right now anyways).

Last night I tried to rub his chest and he was very close to falling asleep, but at that point I wanted to hurry things along, so I ended up nursing him for a minute to speed things up. I'm going to start to unlatch him when he's more awake and work with rubbing him, I think he'll transition pretty well.

After I came to bed he slept 3.5, 2.5, then woke a few times, but put himself back to sleep. Then woke at 6 to eat (very hungry), slept till 7:15.

It seems he likes to sleep with me a few feet away now, that's fine...always something new.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenrose9* 
I see where I still need to adjust his naps a bit to fit in a later quick nap, otherwise he's been getting overtired and that makes for a crappy night usually...
...... but since I've been following the nccs advice of going in quickly to get him back to sleep faster (via nursing) and not let him escalate into full blown crying (which can sometimes happen when dh tries to soothe him), I feel like he's almost gottten *more* dependent on having me near him...

i'm still wondering what other people think of her strategy of prolonging day time napping by nursing at the first signs of stirring......

is the longer napping working for you? (i just made a post about this http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=836629 )

i've been doing this religiously for about 3 weeks, and prolonging napps to 60-75 minutes but still can't see any nighttime improvements. and i'm beginning to wonder if now he's dependent on that nursing to get back to sleep--just what the ncss aims to overcome! i don't know. maybe i've just lost my mind at this point.


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## ladyleigh

I was wondering the same thing about the prolonged napping. to get him to sleep longer I haven't been putting him down but rather keeping him on my lap or in the sling or arranging my driving to his nap time. It hasn't been helping us at night, that is clear! But I've only been doing it for a week. He IS taking longer naps (60-120 min) and getting onto a pretty consistent schedule...

I can't get him to sleep without one of the following
1.boob
2. sling
3. movement (car, stroller, bouncy ball)

that means I nurse him everytime he wakes up or he cries at night, which is still A LOT! sigh.


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## PPK

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
i'm still wondering what other people think of her strategy of prolonging day time napping by nursing at the first signs of stirring......

is the longer napping working for you? (i just made a post about this http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=836629 )

i've been doing this religiously for about 3 weeks, and prolonging napps to 60-75 minutes but still can't see any nighttime improvements. and i'm beginning to wonder if now he's dependent on that nursing to get back to sleep--just what the ncss aims to overcome! i don't know. maybe i've just lost my mind at this point.

Things for us got much worse for a while (even naps, which were never a problem before starting the ncss). But things have improved overall and we've been at it for 1.5 months..we saw pretty consistent improvements around 1 month.

DS is finally taking good naps again without usually waking in the middle. Nighttime isn't bad. We start low lights, etc 1 hr. before bed and do a bath, massage, stories, nurse lying down, and then he usually pulls himself off after 15 min and goes to sleep; he usually sleeps for a 3-5 hr stretch lately, then wakes for a quick nurse, then either 2 or 3 hrs., eat, then it depends. The time from 4-7am is why I originally started the ncss. DS always was awake and fussing and not sleeping hardly at all from 4-7. I've noticed alot of improvement there, he's been taking it in 2 hr. chunks of sleep, and if he's not tired anymore he usually keeps quiet and puts himself back to sleep for small catnaps during that time w/o help from me.

However, this isn't to say I'm sleeping a whole lot better. Every 'light waking' he goes through he yells in his sleep, then is awake fussing and yelling for 20 seconds or so till he puts himself back to sleep. It does seem like he's getting faster at this







, but it still wakes me.

I'm considering putting him in the pack n' play for the first few wakings, maybe even all night if it seems we do better that way. Honestly, he sleeps better without me near him lately. When I come to bed he sometimes wakes, and during the night if I stir, he wakes and vice versa.

If I have any advice to newbies starting the NCSS, I would advise to not nurse baby back to sleep during naps *if* dp is able to soothe the baby back to sleep, or if the baby is already ok with patting or rubbing to get back to sleep. (But it is good to extend the naps so do what you have to do, I agree with that). True, ds is breaking the 'nursing-to-sleep' association, but it got alot worse before getting better, and it messed with dh's ability to soothe him back to sleep. Just my .02









Oh, another thing I noticed around 3 weeks was that ds was more aware of somethhing going on and trying to figure out how to put himself to sleep w/o boob. This *is* a big deal for them to learn, so be patient. I watched him for about week 3-5 trying to fall asleep and just lately seems to be getting it 75% of the time (nightwakings). It can be frustrating for them, and also scary because it *is* a seperation of sorts between baby and mom. Just give lo extra love and cuddles during the day, and lots of positive reinforcement so they don't think that you're trying to seperate from them in a bad way...helped us anyways.


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## riomidwife

i'm so glad to hear about your achievements and improvements!
we're still up every hour over here. and, i've moved him to a futon on the floor. he's still up just as often, but for some reason i've been sleeping better in those _hours_. maybe it's because i'm not paranoid about moving and waking him up all night.

we've been doing ncss for almost a month and here's what i've discovered:

--he sleeps longer stretches (3-4 hours) and sleeps later in the am when he goes down later (in the 9s versus 7s or 8s).

--he sleeps longer stretches when he has 4 naps in the day, 2-3 of which are shorter (30 min) am naps, and 1-2 of which are longer (90-120min) and are later in the day.

--when he has a little fuss (i do NOT mean CIO, i mean a little fussy!)before he sleeps he typically sleeps longer and better than if he just goes down easy breezy.

so, i don't know?! this seems contrary to ncss, but maybe i haven't given it enough time? i'm going to try to hang in there for one more week, being regimented about timely and lengthy naps and putting him down at the first sign of sleepyness, etc. but if we still don't have improvements i think i am going to ease off, and not try to get him down so early.


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## PPK

I meant to mention about the later bedtime. For us,going down at 9 is alot better. It mainly helps me get some of the longer stretch of sleep with him (I will not, can not go to bed sooner than 9:30, and even that's taken me months to be able to do!). He also sleeps later in the morning like your ds. The 7pm seemed to work a few times, but he was wanting to get out of bed at 4:30 in the morning!

He also does better w/more naps, usually 2 long ones, and a shorter one later in the day, around 5:30 or 6.

I would say to definately hang in there, around a month is when I started seeing some changes, by 1.5 it seems more solidified. One month is when I started to lose it though b/c I wasn't so sure anything was improving. I had to take a break for a day or two regarding a schedule and even let him cry in dh's arms for a while, but I didn't want to see him upset, and realized that changing course is doing nothing.

btw, I never mistake fussing for crying







ds fussed for a minute before sleeping for about a week when he was younger, fine w/me!


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## heidirk

Ds went down at 7:30 last night, slept till 11:00 back down by 11:30 slept till 5:30!!!!!!!!

I don't remember the last time we got six hours of uninterrupted sleep.


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## locksmama

hi everyone! we just really got serious about our sleep and nap routine when my back went out a week ago. The doc said I had to change postion at night or this would just keep happening--so we started enforcing so to speak the routine better and started doing the ppo. I thought that she would fight it and really she only did the first night. Now she feels my fingers coming and just pops off and rolls on her side. Sometimes she relatches and pops off on her own a few times. I truly appreciated what Pantley said about how much a tired mom appreciates the backside of her child when the ppo starts working....







I am amazed! She is waking a heck of a lot less too and I can see her trying to put herself to sleep!!!! HOW WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!
BTW she is nursing a lot at night the lsat night or so but that is probably because of two little white intruders I see under her bottom gummies (her first teeth!)
my back is feeling way better and naps are slowly coming into line too-well--somewhat. She still needs me there though..anyway things are overall improving!


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## ladyleigh

I'm losing steam on the napping routine. He will sleep a long stretch (60-90 min) if I hold him, nap with him, or take him in the car. As soon as I leave him he wakes up... sometimes I can get a 45 min nap in but often its more like 20 min after I put him down he wakes up.

He was doing better at night, though. Still up every 2-3 hours, but went back to sleep, which I can handle. I started using a pacifier after PPO, which sometimes works when he wants to just suck and suck. Sometimes he just spits it out and goes to sleep.

My dh came home from travelling yesterday and ds was up a lot last night- I think the queen bed is getting too crowded. I'm trying to think of other options. I have a co-sleeper but it rarely works- ds wakes up when I put him in it.

Alas...

I am tempted to abandon the napping routine. I don't know. I'm at a loss. Swaddling didn't seem to help, and two weeks of giving everything over to his nap routine didn't really get us anywhere. Sigh.


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## PPK

Things are still improving here. We still wake more frequently than I'd ideally like (sometimes every 1.5-2 hrs after 2am) but, on the whole, getting alot better. DH said he really sees ds turning a huge corner this past week or so, I agree.

He just put himself to bed (!), tonight he pulled off after 5 minutes of nursing and was wide awake, then fell asleep on his own, it took him about 10 minutes, but he did it from a being wide awake! I pretended to be asleep next to him, it helps.

He's pulled off before at naps and sometimes at bed and closed his eyes and fell asleep, but not while this awake.


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## PPK

We had the best night ever last night!

DS went down at 7:45 and 'slept' till 7:30am! He woke at 2am to get a very quick feed, then again at 3:45, but this was for both of us, I kept him up to try to drain my left breast a bit, b/c it felt like a softball at this point. Then he had to poop, so we were laying back down after 10 more minues except niether of us were all that tired at that point! We both finally went back to sleep (he went without any help from me). Slept till 7, nursed then dozed again till 7:30.

Yesterday he took his usual 2 hr am nap, then only an hour for the early afternoon and an hour around 5. I think he's just hitting the stage where he's going to be slightly decreasing in naps, but lengthening the time he's in bed at night, (doesn't that happen aroun 6 months?)

Anyways, lots of encouragement to all you moms who are doing this, I really suggest keeping up, we're at past 1.5 months, and she says it can take up to 2 months to see results...soooo worth it!

The ironic thing is that I feel more tired having gotten more sleep! I think se mentions this and I think it'll subside after a few decent night's sleep


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## riomidwife

great news jenrose!

i've been easing up on trying to get ds down for naps every 2.5 hours, and actually he has gone a 3 hour stretch a couple nights.....but then back to his usual up every 45-60 minutes. i am not sure if they are related. last night though we were back to one 1.5 hour stretch as the longest.

we've had no success with trying to get dh to put him back to sleep. he works up a huge fit, cries terribly, and then, of course, is wide awake. then i nurse him and try to get him back down. so i have no idea if this will _ever_ work. right now it feels pretty hopeless.

when he wakes up every hour, almost every time he wants to nurse voraciously. not a few sucks on the nipple, and back to sleep, but a full on nursing session complete with burps and pees.

i think my new plan is going to be to try to get him to take 2 2-hour naps instead of 3 naps. we'll see if that suits him.

i just pray we can change things soon. even if we keep waking every hour, getting one 3 hour strecth every night would be a miracle at this point.

the last few nights i've woken up in the early am so distraught, crying, feeling completely desparate and frustrated. at the end of my rope. i don't know how i can continue on like this. i really feel my mind slipping away. and to exacerbate my worry, i have a birth coming up any time now for a client, and i poked my self with a needle the other day at clinic because i am so tired and out of it.


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## PPK

elriomidwife-

I'm so sorry to hear how you're feeling. DH is getting to where he can just about get him back to sleep, but honestly we haven't been sending him in lately bc we dont wnat to rock the boat on ds as things are changing, kwim?

I ope things get better for you guys, always take a break if you need it (I don't know if that'd change things for you), but







s.

btw, i never tried to get ds on a nap schedule, he just goes down when first signs of sleepiness happen..he's just pretty darn regular about when he gets tired.goodluck!


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## riomidwife

thanks jenrose. i don't know what i was thinking with my 2 hour-long nap routine!







i can barely get him to sleep an hour at a time! i am feeling better now that's it later in the day. the middle of the night tiredness just makes everything so much worse, as we all know.

what was the progression like for your lo, in terms of dh being able to get him back to sleep. did it start off with screaming fits?


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## PPK

dh was able to sometimes get him back to sleep (but never down for a nap or initially in the night) when he was a newborn and up to maybe 2.5 months. But it was never like he was always able to do it.

Once we started the ncss he was never able to do it and just the other night he rocked him to sleep after a wake up. I think that very soon he'll be able to rub his tummy and get him to sleep, but I really don'tnt ds to be freaking out.

Consistentcy and patience will win your lo over eventually. I noticed that everytime I had a meltdown and let ds cry in dh's arms, it didn't help his progression...but there are times you just have to do what you need for your own sanity, and in my case I was getting to a point of anger that was scary.


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## PPK

Wow, so its been 3 nights in a row..it really has seemed to work to teach him to sleep!

Night before last he didn't sleep longer than a 3 hr. stretch, but the wakings weren't bad at all, he ut himself back to sleep quickly or nursed (obviously hungry when he did) and then pulled off after only five minutes (or less, I would guess) and go right to sleep.

Last night a 3 hr., I came to bed at 11 and then (I'm pretty sure) he slept till 5!! Then ate, then up around 6:30, 7, then up at 7:30...I think he'd have slept better if I changed his diaper at 5, b/c when I changed him at 7:30 he was sooooo wet.







:

I might not post here that much, but will still get email notifications for new posts, so I'd love to offer any help if anyone has any questions about what did/didn't work for us. GL mamas, and definately stick with it!


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## riomidwife

jenrose it's great to hear about your improvements, and thanks for the pep talking!

i have to eat my words now, lol, because ds did manage to go down for 2 long naps yesturday and today, with some nursing back to sleep in the middle. last night he slept for an initial 3 hours, then two hours a stretch all night long, which is such a huge change over the up every hour thing. i woke up this morning for the first time feeling like i had gotten some sleep.

so we'll see if he repeats tonight. hopefully i can keep him on the two long naps schedule the rest of the week.


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## PPK

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
jenrose it's great to hear about your improvements, and thanks for the pep talking!

i have to eat my words now, lol, because ds did manage to go down for 2 long naps yesturday and today, with some nursing back to sleep in the middle. last night he slept for an initial 3 hours, then two hours a stretch all night long, which is such a huge change over the up every hour thing. i woke up this morning for the first time feeling like i had gotten some sleep.

so we'll see if he repeats tonight. hopefully i can keep him on the two long naps schedule the rest of the week.

great!

btw, ds seems to be dropping a nap, I think its the age. A long am and two quick ones in the afternoon lately...I think he'll probably just start to do an am and afternoon soon. Good job you guys!


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## Natalie143

hi everyone.. i'll be joining you guys!! my son is 12 months old.. we co-sleep and still breastfeed... im not sure if helping him sleep through the night is gonna work because he's not a schedule kind of child.. i mean in the day he gets the boob whenever he wants it.. whether its 5 minutes later.. 3 hours..4 hours... 30 minutes from his last feeding. I would like to try to put him on a sort of schedule.. so atleast he has 2 set nap times.. and a set bed time(which he does not have yet).. i want him to wake up at 8 -9 am... so i guess that means a bedtime of 8-9pm...
ive tried putting him to sleep earlier but... if i do that he wakes up after an hour thinking it was a major power nap and goes to sleep at midnight!

i think part of the hard time getting him to fall asleep at night is because our tv is on.. he usually falls asleep while dh and i watch tv in bed.. he nurses to sleep and usually falls asleep by about 10pm i think i should make him sleep and put him to bed at 8.30.. let him sleep in his cot for his first sleep while dh and i watch tv downstairs. ive done that once or twice but when he wakes up and realises that he is in his cot he screams for about 15 minutes(while in my arms) i think he feels betrayed... i cant let him sleep in our bed without us cuz he'd fall.he sleeps in his cot for daytime naps(but we have to gently put him down after he falls asleep otherwise if he realises he's going into his cot he screams)
any suggestions???
am gonna try tonight with the PPO.. but im not really sure what other advice she gives.. ive read the book but i dont find many methods there?????? maybe im so sleep deprived im missing something lol


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## riomidwife

well the day before yesturday he went back to the normal sleep routine (up every hour) and that was on a day with 2 hour-long naps. then yesturday he did 30-60 minute naps, and slept the same.

i have noticed though in the past few nights that when he half wakes up in the first few hours after going down, he has just gone back to sleep. this has only happened when he's been on the futon by himself (as opposed to in bed with us). improvement? random occurrance? we'll see!


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Natalie143* 
am gonna try tonight with the PPO.. but im not really sure what other advice she gives.. ive read the book but i dont find many methods there?????? maybe im so sleep deprived im missing something lol

hi natalie. yes, there aren't a whole lot of "methods" in the book, but suggestions for supporting normal sleeping rhythms, and baby's ability to fall back asleep on her own, without nursing.

some of the main tactics are PPOing, soothing back to sleep without nursing, having a partner soothe baby back to sleep, improving timing and length of naps, responding quickly to sleep cues, etc.

how is your LO sleeping poorly? is it just that he goes to bed late? or is he waking up all night long too? it seems like sleep would definitely improve if you stopped the tv-bedtime routine.

my son used to go to sleep at midnight, so i know the deal. and wheni tried to bump his bedtime earlier, at first he too would just take that as a nap. he did get it though, and with the help of daylight savings, moved his bedtime up 4 hours. so it can be done! it wasn't easy though. it took WEEKS of sequestering ourselves in the bedroom as soon as he appeared sleepy for the night. we stayed in there, in the dark, quiet and still for as long as it took for him to settle down and sleep. sometimes it was hours, and sometimes it felt like torture, but he did finally get the idea that being in that quiet, dark room meant it was time to get ready for sleep.


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## Natalie143

ah last night was a bad night... he would get so frustrated when i'd do the PPO.. i would do it like 15 times before he'd actually sleep... i didnt do it for every wake up though.. it was too hard... He seems to be teething so we were up 6 times!!







i wish there was a cure for these nights


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## ladyleigh

with the ppo- i just started using a pacifier. i never thought i would use one but- alas- it has helped. now i can just put the pacifier back in his mouth, pat him and he goes back to sleep right away. sometimes he does want to nurse, but not everytime. i'm probably starting a bad habit with the pacifier, alas. my need for sleep outweighs that worry right now. plus, it REALLY helps in the car (when he would normally be screaming.)

we are working on making his bedtime earlier- 7pm instead of 8pm.

naps are still variable- he was on a fairly consistent 'schedule' but that has gone out the window in the last weeks. he has taken some longer naps on his own though- mon and tues he had a 3 hour nap!

fyi: i got this pacifier
http://www.thesoftlanding.com/narunapacoso.html


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## PPK

I was looking at those paci's a while back, but haven't ordered one 'cuz ds won't take one. THnking I might still order one to give it another try.

I know I said I wasn't posting much more here, but, ds had a great week, huge improvements, then the past two nights have been really tough. The only thing that changed was two nights ago we went out and stayed a little late (til about his bedtime). I think it really confused him.

Also, something worth mentioning, this whole week he's been doing great, he's been putting himself to sleep after nursing and pulling himself off. Sometimes I lay with him for 5 minutes while he falls asleep without sucking, or patting, or anything else..these nights he seemed to do best!


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## xtara2003x

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Natalie143* 
hi everyone.. i'll be joining you guys!! my son is 12 months old.. we co-sleep and still breastfeed... im not sure if helping him sleep through the night is gonna work because he's not a schedule kind of child.. i mean in the day he gets the boob whenever he wants it.. whether its 5 minutes later.. 3 hours..4 hours... 30 minutes from his last feeding. I would like to try to put him on a sort of schedule.. so atleast he has 2 set nap times.. and a set bed time(which he does not have yet).. i want him to wake up at 8 -9 am... so i guess that means a bedtime of 8-9pm...
ive tried putting him to sleep earlier but... if i do that he wakes up after an hour thinking it was a major power nap and goes to sleep at midnight!

i think part of the hard time getting him to fall asleep at night is because our tv is on.. he usually falls asleep while dh and i watch tv in bed.. he nurses to sleep and usually falls asleep by about 10pm i think i should make him sleep and put him to bed at 8.30.. let him sleep in his cot for his first sleep while dh and i watch tv downstairs. ive done that once or twice but when he wakes up and realises that he is in his cot he screams for about 15 minutes(while in my arms) i think he feels betrayed... i cant let him sleep in our bed without us cuz he'd fall.he sleeps in his cot for daytime naps(but we have to gently put him down after he falls asleep otherwise if he realises he's going into his cot he screams)
any suggestions???
am gonna try tonight with the PPO.. but im not really sure what other advice she gives.. ive read the book but i dont find many methods there?????? maybe im so sleep deprived im missing something lol

Wow! We have basically the same situation!









My DD is 10 months old though.....and we co sleep and still BF. My DD is not a schedule kind of girl either.....she nurses whenever she wants when we're home...like you said, 5 minutes after a feeding...or 3 hours after a feeding. Sometimes she wants both boobies....sometimes just one is fine....she just does what she wants when she wants it! Lol! Nap time is crazy. She just falls asleep in my arms while nursing, and if she's TOTALLY out cold..I can sometimes lay her down in her carseat and she'll sleep anywhere from 20minutes to 3 hours! She won't sleep laying down in a crib or our bed though. I don't know what it is with the car seat..but she sleeps very well in it! She also naps when we're doing errands and we're in the car. She'll fall asleep in the car and then I'll bring her in the house and put her in her room and she'll stay sleeping for however long she wants.

We have no set bedtimes....because both DP's schedule and my schedule are weird. DP works different times every day. Today he works til 11pm, tomorrow and Friday he's off, Saturday he works 6-2, and Sunday he works 7-3....etc. I'm a waitress a couple of nights a week....so I work 1-3 nights per week from about 5-8 or 9 pm. Since DD goes to bed when I go to bed, she just stayes up with us until we go to bed.

When we do go to bed....she pretty much plays in bed for a little while while DP and I watch TV, and then she nurses to sleep while our TV is on. I know we should probably change this habit....but we do enjoy watching tv in our bed and then turning it off when we get tired.

I haven't actually read this book yet...but am planning to get it from the library. The only problems I really have with my DD's sleeping is nap time....and I guess it'd be nice if she wouldn't wake up several times a night to nurse back to sleep. That's not the BIGGEST deal..because she never wakes up to play or anything like that, she simply nurses and goes right back to sleep. I don't think she really REALLY wakes up during the night either..it's just waking up enough to want to nurse.

When she's done nursing, I have to SLOWLY pull away from her so I can lay on my back..which kind of sounds like this PPO thing you guys are talking about.










I'll keep watching this thread, so that when I do get the book I'll know more about what you guys are talking about!


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## PPK

ds has been sleeping from 7:45 till 3:30 or 4:15 without waking for the last 3 nights (well,the first nite he woke when I came to bed). He eats at the 3:30/4am waking, then one or two more till 7:30am.

He was doing well for the most part, but his schedule got thrown last week and he just wasn't able to get his groove back. What pushed it over the top for us was this weekend I gave him to dh at around 4 am, then the night after that I partially nightweaned (I guess). I decided to not give him the breast from 12-3, when he woke I rocked him, rubbed, patted, etc till he fell back asleep...it seems to have worked.

I know many moms here are opposed to any type of nightweaning particuarly at his age (6mo), but I know he can go 3 hrs at night easily w/o a feed. I don't know why its not recommended by some, he still nurses just fine all day and we get to snuggle all night.

I'm not recommending nightweaning as a sub for the ncss, but for us after two months and doing so well and getting the hang of it, he just needed as a little extra nudge in that direction to make it all 'click'. No flames please









Its been 2 months to the day, and I just wanated to update and say its definately worth sticking with!


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## Miranda2r14

Looking for advice or encouragement. Here are both my starting and ten day logs. There isn't much of a difference except that the formal bedtime routine has made him go to bed earlier and wake up earlier.

I do like that I don't have to fight with him an hour anymore to get to sleep, our routine is calming for both of us and I get great "me" time at night for a couple hours. He's napping better now that I see when he's tired and it's more routine. I've also switched to feeding him 3 small meals a day on a routine in addition to nursing on cue. He's a much happier baby now, a lot less of the fussy crying that he used to do all the time. Now I can tell when he gets cranky it's because he's tired. So there have been some benefits to doing this. Just not more night sleep 

Day 1 Log:
9:05 Asleep
9:10 Cry, Nurse 5 mins, 9:15 asleep
10:50 Cry, Nurse 5 mins, 10:55 asleep
11:30 Whimper, Rock 1 min, 11:31 asleep
1:50 Cry, Nurse 5 mins, 1:55 asleep
2:50 Cry, Nurse 10 mins, 3:00 asleep
4:10 Cry, Nurse 30 mins, 4:40 asleep
6:50 Crawl, Babble and up for the day

Asleep Time: 9:05pm
Awake Time: 6:50am
Total Awakenings: 7
Longest Sleep Span: 2hrs 40mins
Total Hours Sleep: 9hrs 30mins

Day 10 Log:
6:45 Asleep
7:05 Whimper, Nurse 15 mins, 7:20 asleep
9:20 Cry, Nurse 5 mins, 9:25 asleep
12:35 Cry, Nurse 5 mins, 12:40 asleep
1:43 Whimper, Hold and sing 5 mins, 1:48 asleep
4:00 Cry, Nurse 15 mins, 4:15 asleep
5:10 Whimper, Hold and sing 5 mins, 5:15 asleep
5:30 Crawl, babble and up for the day

Asleep Time: 6:45pm
Awake Time: 5:30am
Total Awakenings: 7
Longest Sleep Span: 3hr 10min
Total Hours Sleep: 9hrs 40mins

To anyone who has tried the NCSS with more success, got any advice for me?


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## Miranda2r14

I guess I should add what I've been doing and what I haven't. I do the PPO every time we're nursing to sleep. Sometimes it takes 5+ times for him to settle, sometimes he's fine after the first (sometimes he does it on his own). I'm trying to use a lovey, but it's sporadic. I'm humming "You are my sunshine" as my key sleep phrase (that seems to be working really really well). I nurse as a last resort if it hasn't been at least two hours since he last ate at night. We now have a great bedtime routine, we're moving towards a better nap groove...umm I guess that's it.


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## Miranda2r14




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## CheapPearls

ARG!!

We just started using NCSS a couple days ago and it's been working great. The PPO is actually working and I've been able to get him off the boob and into bed awake and pat his back to sleep.

It was/is naptime. He nursed then I laid him down. He was just barely asleep then my 2 year old comes running into my room asking for whatever. I ask him quietly to leave. He starts FREAKING OUT (gotta love the 2s) and of course woke up E. Now it's still nap time and he's wide awake. I guess I'll try again in an hour.









This is frustrating. The main reason we are doing NCSS is for him to take better naps. He's 9 months old and on average takes 2 naps about 20-45 minutes each. He's over tired and clingy. With my older kids, I can't hold him for 2 hour naps twice a day. I'm just so tired and frustrated.









Just venting. Thanks.


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## alijased

Hugs to you mama,
I feel like that too. I have to remind myself, these kids (even the 2yr old) is just doing what they do! I am SOOO TIRED>


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## Devaya

hi ladies, think i may join you...i tried the NCSS a few months ago and gave up after a week bc i felt more tired from having to actually stay awake to re-settle DS when using the pantley pull-off. But things are getting desperate here and I feel I'm right on the edge, so I decided we really have to 'do' something...esp as DP still wants to let DS cry a little bit (not for ages, just not run to him at every whimper). We are now fully co-sleeping whereas before, i was having to resettle him in the cot after every feed which would often wake him - that added to the pantley pull off was just too exhausting for me! But now, I find it often works to unlatch him when he's sleepy but not fast asleep, and he protests a little, then sort of just cuddles me and goes back to sleep. He is still waking about 5 times a night and then every few minutes in the early hours of the morning.

I'm scared of the naps thing though...its such a huge part of the book, but I struggle with it bc it means having to stay home during most of the day (i live too far away from town too be able to go in and come back again in time for naps), and I really struggle when i'm at home a lot - i feel isolated, the time drags, and DS really seems to get bored too. He likes a lot of stimulation and is used to playgroups and other people every day. So...I will have to figure out a way around that one. At the mo he naps roughly 3 hours after he gets up in the morning (his morning wake up time is anywhere between 6 am and 8 am these days, bc his sleep is so all over the place right now), and then another one about 4 hours after he wakes up from that one. I usually have to lie down with him to get him to stay asleep longer than 20-40 minutes during a nap, though.

I really am feeling the strain of 10 1/2 months of accumulated sleep dep. I read on MDC about children who still wake up all night at 3 years old and I just don' t think I can cope. If nothing else, DP and my relationship wont survive it! DS is just starting to crawl and so the sleep is even worse right now, with him not even settling initially which he was doing ok before, he now fights sleep for up to 3 hours and then wakes up as much as every 10 minutes after falling asleep... I'm going to give it a shot, and if i dont see improvements in about a month, i may consider night weaning him completely. I didnt want to do that, but I am starting to fray at the edges here, and my patience is not what it used to be.

sorry so long!


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## ATD_Mom

Devaya, how are you doing?

DS, just 12 months, has been waking every 1-2 hours for almost five months now.

This mama is absolutely fried. A doctor friend talked to me about how long-term sleep deprivation begins to look like depression and anxiety after a while. I think I hit that spot a few months ago. Now I'm just ... Well, I sort of feel like the walking dead.

We did our first log 10 days ago, and he woke up 7 times. Last night we did the second log, and he woke up 10 times. He cries/fusses, sits up, I feed him, he eats for 5-10 minutes, then he pops off on his own (because I've been doing the PPO for two weeks now, and he feels it coming), rolls over and goes back to sleep. Every hour or hour and a half, last night.

I wish EP would just come over to my house and tell me what to do!


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## Devaya

Hi ATD Mom...sounds like you're having a frustrating time. I feel your pain! I have to confess I've given up on NCSS as the progress was just too slow for me...in fact his sleep even worsened to the point of him waking every few minutes, for the 3 hours before i come to bed with him..and i've been getting exactly what you mention, the symptoms of anxiety and depression, often feeling unable to cope with the simplest things...and i think it is from a year of not sleeping more than 2 hours at a time. SO...i've decided to try and nightwean DS, which tonight will be the 7th night of. I'm already seeing massive progress (but i wont go into it here as its not a nightweaning thread, pm me if you want to know) although it's hard to see him being more clingy in the day prob as a result, but I know it's in the best interests of our whole family overall..now that he's turning one I feel better about doing it.

good luck to you...i must say i just couldnt stick to the naps thing either, i go crazy if i can't go out all the time (which i wouldnt be able to do, and still keep the nap routine).


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## mexicali mami

Totally agree. I did the book for a week straight. Didn't work for us. He wakes every four hours which i guess is better than staying up all night trying not to give him what he wants. I liked the end chapter where she says it's OK to quit nightweaning. I was so sure it would work because it did for so many people, I didn't think about just stopping and doing what comes naturally, nursing and waking at night.

HSU allumni 2000

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i read it when ds was a tiny newborn. i like the fact that its a book that doesn't advocate cio and that it somewhat encourages co-sleeping (although the ridiculous chapter on making your bed safe seemed like overkill...duuuuuh...) but i'll be honest, i just think any book that tells you how to raise your kid is faulty, because your kid just isn't going to fit the description...yk? and then i think mama's go crazy because they are like, i followed all the directions and my dc is still not doing it...and then you get even more obsessed with whatever aspect of childrearing that particular book focused on, in this case, sleep training...yes, i said it. i think the pantley theory is gentle sleep training, but sleep training nonetheless....
imho...you might do better just taking it day by day, because your baby is going to change every day...and i don't think babies have sleep issues...they are doing what they are hardwired to do...which, unfortunatly for us very very tired mamas (i woke up at 5 am today







: after a wiggly night!)isn't always sleeping at the same time we do







...
anyway, if the book is working for you, then go for it! but if its not, don't think its because you aren't doing it right, yk? i think that just makes whatever problems you are having worse...
plus i just found that book to be to much about log keeping...you are already sleep deprived,right?why waste more time you could be sleeping on writing down stuff about your babies sleep pattern.
from my limited experience with my little sister, my baby and what my girlfriends babies have done, this is the rule: as soon as you got baby figured out...they change on ya again...sneaky little buggers







.
anyway...i really hope you all are getting rest...nothing is worse then mamahood on an empty tank!


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## ATD_Mom

I just realized last night I wasn't really doing the Pantley Pull-Off. I was doing the ATD_Mom-Pull-Off. I would pop him off when he was already asleep, basically. Just today for his nap I did it the real way - popping him off when he was only tired. The first three times I popped him off, he fussed and rolled around then cried, so I put him back on. But the fourth time, he fussed, kicked his legs, rolled onto his belly ... and fell to sleep while I rubbed his back. I'm hoping if I start doing this as directed it might help us.

I can't night-wean him, because he is almost exclusively breastfed still, yet doesn't eat much during the day. The kid would starve if he didn't eat at night! So I'm going to stick with the NCSS for either as long as it takes, or until he starts eating enough during the day that night-weaning works for us. Whichever comes first.

She says a billion times in her book that it's not a quick process, so I'm being patient. What's another month or two or more when my brain is beyond mush anyhow, eh? Har. Poor me. Poor _all of us_ with once-an-hour wakers!


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 
I just realized last night I wasn't really doing the Pantley Pull-Off. I was doing the ATD_Mom-Pull-Off. I would pop him off when he was already asleep, basically. Just today for his nap I did it the real way - popping him off when he was only tired. The first three times I popped him off, he fussed and rolled around then cried, so I put him back on. But the fourth time, he fussed, kicked his legs, rolled onto his belly ... and fell to sleep while I rubbed his back. I'm hoping if I start doing this as directed it might help us.

I can't night-wean him, because he is almost exclusively breastfed still, yet doesn't eat much during the day. The kid would starve if he didn't eat at night! So I'm going to stick with the NCSS for either as long as it takes, or until he starts eating enough during the day that night-weaning works for us. Whichever comes first.

She says a billion times in her book that it's not a quick process, so I'm being patient. What's another month or two or more when my brain is beyond mush anyhow, eh? Har. Poor me. Poor _all of us_ with once-an-hour wakers!

know what u mean about the pantley pull off... i wasn't nearly doing it properly either, bc i didnt trust in DS's ability to fall asleep without feeding to sleep. Now, he's doing it quite a lot, (falling asleep when only sleepy, not asleep), funny that i couldn't achieve that before. I guess I've just got desperate enough. My son was also not eating much solids in the daytime which is why i was wary of nightweaning, but i knew he was feeding loads (breastmilk) in the day and I wasnt going to suddenly stop feeding at night, just gradually. And i have to say he is now eating about three times more solids in the day, and seems much more interested in it - he ws mainly just playing with food before. So, just a thought, and obv nightweaning is a last resort and not for everyone. If you have the patience, good for you! *wish I had*.


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## Cekimon

I have't this entire thread but I have the NCSS for toddlers and pre schoolers and I'm trying to figure out the nap thing. I posted another thread about my nap frustration. I know naps and night time go hand in hand but I can't get my son to nap at home... just by falling asleep in the car and I can't figure a away to break this habit. We're on day three and there's lots of crying and this is not what I want. He just fights his naps... I am about to cry myself. so much for the "no-cry" part.


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## CarsonBookworm

I'm going to get this book ASAP and join this conversation soon.


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## L'lee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cekimon* 
I have't this entire thread but I have the NCSS for toddlers and pre schoolers and I'm trying to figure out the nap thing. I posted another thread about my nap frustration. I know naps and night time go hand in hand but I can't get my son to nap at home... just by falling asleep in the car and I can't figure a away to break this habit. We're on day three and there's lots of crying and this is not what I want. He just fights his naps... I am about to cry myself. so much for the "no-cry" part.

I also just read NCSS Toddlers, and I'm working on naps with DS. Our trouble is that he wants to nap at 5PM and then he can't sleep at night.

One thing to remember is that a little crying in your or DPs arms is fine, it's the crying alone that you want to avoid.


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## studentmomma

Mind if I cut in?

So tired - as we all are! I hate this - I hate not feeling like I'm all the mama I could be to DD. I hate feeling resentful. I hate not being able to carry on a conversation. I hate not getting anything done bc I'm so tired all the time.
Alright, enough venting.

We're on our second go 'round with NCSS. I'm not sure we're doing the proper PPO each time - I know I fell asleep while nursing once last night.









DD woke up at least 11 times last night - I'm pretty sure I forgot to write down one or two. UGH! Her longest stretch was just over an hour. Me? I didn't get nearly that. (I guess I wasn't done venting afterall.)

Thank goodness my mom lives close - I took DD there for a little break - which I haven't had in what seems like forever.

Any suggestions for alternate go-to-sleep methods? DD always nurses to sleep, we're doing PPO (I think) and I need some other way that she will accept sleep from me. OK, I'm going to try to take a nap and really sleep for a few while I have the chance.


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## boatrat

Hi there, anyone interested in keeping this thread going? We've been doing the NCSS for the last 3 days, and tonight ds went to sleep in my arms in only 10 minutes - down from 70 minutes on the first night. Prior to this he was really only falling asleep in our Ergo carrier, so it's an improvement. Anyway, once he's asleep when I go to lie him down (on my bed) I still have to nurse him.

I haven't been able to do my night log yet (I wear contacts during the day and I'm too blind to see a clock at night and can't even think about fiddling with my glasses) but I would guess I'm up about every 2 hours, and have been for the last 10 and a half months. We co-sleep and I love it, but I need some rest.

I've been doing the PPO when I first nurse ds down for the night, but I am not doing it every time at night. At some point, I just give up and want to be sure he stays asleep. I've been putting him to bed at 7 (which is earlier than his previous bedtime of 9:30) and I'm glad to say he is not waking up for the day until 7 AM (his normal time).

Good luck to all of you out there. I'm heading off to bed, or *sleepytown* (one of our keywords).


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## aquamam

I am in the same boat and could use some support myself! We have been using NCSS for about 6 weeks with limited success, and I could use some encouragement and sharing of ideas to help me stick it out.

We have a 6 month old who actually slept through the night at 3-4 months, and since the first two teeth came in he's been up every 1-2 hours every night, and needs to nurse back to sleep. We co-sleep and I'm afraid the cosleeping advice in the book has created a bit of a nightwaking habit, now that i no longer nurse a half awake babe, as per pantley's advice. Several bouts of the PPO per feed during the night have made both mother and babe grumpy during the day!

We've been doing a wind-down routine for naps. Not sure if I'm waiting too long to put DS down but fussiness starts as soon as the routine starts - like he knows what's coming! DS does 4 naps per day, 1/2 hour each (practically to the second), every two hours. The advice for lengthening naps hasn't worked - when he's up, there is no charming him back down. I also have a 2 YO at home so consistency during the day is difficult.


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## boatrat

Hi Aquamam! My hat is off to you for managing your 6 month old and a two month old. I hope to have another baby at some point, but right now that seems very far away...

My DS is ten months old and he was taking 4 short naps per day routinely. We've been on NCSS for almost a week now and he's down to three naps per day. The first one is short - he wakes up at 6 AM and then is tired by 7:30 AM. I'd like to get him to sleep in until 7:30 but we'll have to work on that. I think that the biggest help to lengtehing his naps has been to stay closeby (or listen in on the baby monitor) so that I can respond as soon as he starts waking up and extend the nap by any means neccessary. Hang in there and hopefully it will start to work.

We've been doing the early bedtime and that has worked out well (except for the 6 AM wake up). Do you have any suggestions for keeping him in bed longer?

We co-sleep and BF as well. We had a couple of really rough nights practicing the PPO, but I did notice that last night he seemed to wake up less.

The other thing goal I have is to be able to lie him in his crib for naps and for his bedtime before we go to bed. I just cannot get him to lie down and sleep without nursing him. I can get him to sleep in my arms, but then I can't lie him down without him waking up. I'm trying to turn his crib into a "happy place", but so far when I put him down to nap either asleep or drowsy, he still ends up crying and I end up picking him up and either trying again or nursing him down.


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## boatrat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boatrat* 
Hi Aquamam! My hat is off to you for managing your 6 month old and a two month old.

Make that a two year old, not a two month old...sleep deprivation anyone?


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## boatrat

So last night was a bit rough since I was busy doing the PPO all night long, although I did notice that he is beginning to get the picture and even pulled himself off once or twice. But he was up at 6 AM this morning and again tired by 7 AM.

The good news is that I kept him awake a bit longer than I normally do and I fed him some breakfast even though he was grumpy because I wanted him to have a full belly for his nap. Then I started to put him down for a nap. I thought I would be brave and try to put him to sleep in his pack and play in our room, although this has never worked before (I ALWAYS end up nursing him to sleep).

I cuddled him up in his blanket (the lovey we've been working on) and bounced him to sleep in my arms. Then, just as he fell asleep (with my ssshing sounds) I put him in the pack and play. He opened his eyes, looked around and grunted, but I rubbed his belly, shhhed him and HE WENT TO SLEEP!

He has woken up twice, but I got him back down the same way both times! It's almost 11 AM and his nap started at 8 AM!!!! I'm such a happy momma today.


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## aquamam

Sounds like you're making great headway! Any nap longer than 1 hour would be a dream to me. It's very encouraging to hear your progress!

We're not making good progress over here, but I think it's due to lack of consistency on my end, especially during the day, as it's difficult to leave a 2 YO unsupervised for long while I try to get the wee one down for naps.

I think I'll take a break from NCSS when DH is out of town next week for work, then when he's off during the xmas break, I'll give things another whirl, when i can focus on the baby and his sleep needs better, wiith two parents around.

I'll check in here again soon, and hopefully you will have even better news to share!


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## boatrat

OK, so after an exciting few days of progress and getting ds to sleep in his crib for naps and the pack'nplay in our bedroom before I'm ready for bed, we have had some setbacks.

Yesterday I was overly ambitious with errands and didn't get him home in time for his afternoon nap schedule. I could not get him down in the crib and ended up holding him for a fitful short nap. Then last night after I put him down in the pack n play he slept one hour then woke up after 1.5 hours and I spent 1 hour trying to get him back down. I finally gave up and nursed him to sleep.

Then this morning he's up before 6 AM. Then for his morning nap I spent an extremely frustrating 1.5 hours trying to get him down for his nap. It ended with both of us in tears and me nursing him down.

One possible culprit is that he's cutting at least one new tooth. The good news is that I just put him down for his afternoon nap in his crib on the first try.

Aquamam, I simply can't imagine how I could take the time to put my ds down to sleep with a 2-year old running around. It always takes at least 30 minutes and sometimes over an hour! Maybe you can still do a portion of the NCSS (like PPOs at night) while you're on your NCSS break. Good luck.


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## sarahz5

I plan to go back and read this entire thread at some point, but I need to post NOW. I am at my wit's end. We did NCSS consistently for three weeks about two weeks ago with NO results. We tried The Baby Whisperer (don't hate!) for three days before we gave up. Finally, we just sort of "gave in." I don't know what we're doing now, but it's not working.

Since six months (DS is 9 months now), it's just gone from okay to bad to worse. Tonight he woke up 10-15 minutes after finally falling to sleep (just long enough for us to sneak out for a few minutes after we finally get him down) about five times in a row - the last time he screamed horribly for 20 minutes before we finally just brought him downstairs, and now he is squealing with glee watching a Woody Allen movie.









I can echo so much of what I've read so far - I am angry, resentful, feel like a horrible mother... I keep thinking I must have done something terribly wrong to get to this point.

Anyway, I can't wait to read more commisseration, and hopefully some success stories. I'm so glad i found this thread.

Sarah


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## sarahz5

To add.... our main concern, other than the constant wakings before bed, is how to bed him down safely in the few hours before we go to sleep. His bedtime is between 7:30 and 8:30... we don't go to sleep until at least 10. Especially given his constant wakeups, I want to make sure he is secure... we have a two story house. He has a crib in his room that he uses for naps, but he goes to sleep much better in his sidecarred crib next to our bed, because we can lay down with him. But then, what if he wakes up and crawls out of the sidecar and over to the edge of the bed? We could put up a bedrail on the other side, but then the bottom of the crib side and the foot of the bed are wide open.

I got a snug tuck pillow to put along the edge where the crib meets the bed. But I don't think that is going to contain him.


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## boatrat

Hi Sarahz5, I feel your pain. The other night we had people over for dinner after I put ds to bed. He woke up he was upset and would not go back down. I had to stay with him to try to get him back down the whole time. When I finally emerged, everyone had gone home :-(.

As for the bed safety issues, we had the same concern. We ended up getting a pack n play and putting it in our bedroom. I have a safety rail on one side of our bed, which works when we are all asleep together, but he could easily crawl over it if he was unsupervised. And we had tried barricading the other side with pillows, but he fell off one evening before we came to bed (despite us having the baby monitor on him and responding to each little sound). Thankfully he wasn't hurt, but no more unsupervised baby in the bed for us. And I can relax a bit more knowing that he is at least safe.

It took a few days of making the packn play a "happy place" by having ds spend some time playing in there before I could get him to sleep in it. But now it's working fairly well.


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## Charlotte's mum

Hi all. Glad to see this thread has picked up again.

We've been trying this for 3.5 weeks now, with very mixed results. The regular schedule and nap/night routine seemed to have helped with the falling asleep, but the night wakings have gotten worse (from about 5-7 to about 10 times), I think because with the PPO she feels she has to keep getting some while the getting's good, before I pull her off! And there's no extending this busy-bee's 10-minute naps, under any circumstances (we just gave up because it was SOOO frustrating).

I'm a zombie during the day, and I'm starting to worry I might endanger myself or her, just with my sleep-deprived sloppiness! Sometimes I'm so zoned out I find myself in the middle of somehting I don't even remember starting- thank god I don't drive! She's 9 months, and I haven't slept for more than two consecutive hours for a year now (first my tiny pregnant bladder, then this!).

We need change. This program has resulted in HER crying less, but I'VE have three sobbing bouts already this week, and it's only Tuesday....

I've been so diligent about following ALL the parts of the plan, but feel I'm missing something- help!


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## boatrat

Hi Charlottes Mum,

Hugs. I hear what you're saying about mixed results. We've had a lot of success with getting ds to nap in his crib and to sleep in the pack n play before I go to bed (we co-sleep). Last night I even put ds down drowsy but awake and was able to pat his butt until he fell asleep! That was so amazing and was huge progress. But...he still didn't sleep well last night! About every third night is just terrible. I don't know if it is teething, gas, or what. On those nights I don't even do the PPO because I just want him to sleep!

Since you asked for advice, I'll try some suggestions of what worked for us: a white noise machine, a "lovey", and a looong nighttime routine. I think the 1.5 hours of getting him ready for sleep has been huge in being able to get him to go to sleep on his own. He knows what is coming and is relaxed.

Hang in there. We are seeing improvements and hoepfully the bad times are just bumps in the road (that is what I keep telling myself anyways).

Of course, we're going to be traveling to my in-laws over the holiday break so that will probably totally screw things up...advice on dealing with NCSS and travel/2 hour time difference? Anyone?


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## Charlotte's mum

Thank, Boatrat...

The strangest thing- as soon as I wrote my whining post, things got better. I thought that the PPO wasn't working because it might be making things a bit vague for my girl, so decided to make things clearer: I gently (but firmly) deny the boob, between 12 and 7 am, but offer cuddles & kisses aplenty. The past three nights have been a complete turnaround- 7 hours without nursing!







: Now, that's not 7 hours of sleep- she still woke, but I was able to get her back to sleep within just a few pats & sweet whispers, and she actually went along with it. One small crying outburst, but back to sleep pretty quick.

I'm elated. I'm hopeful. I'm still exhausted, but I see the light.









I guess I was so busy following ALL the parts of the NCSS that I forgot to adapt it to MY babe as needed, and my babe, as it turns out, is an all-or-nothing kind of girl. I guess I knew that, but lost sight of it in my sleepless stupor.

Oh- I too am visiting family after the holidays, with a 4 hour time change- yikes! How does that work??


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## boatrat

Yay Charlotte'sMum! That is great progress.

Hopefully tonight my ds will sleep well enough that I am not just nursing out of the hopes he will give me 15 minutes of sleep and I can try the PPO or some cuddles and kisses. That actually sounds really sweet.


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## jjjwilk

Hi Everyone
I am really glad I found this forum. I have the book and I am thinking about starting the routine...
Reading your posts makes me feel like I am normal and not the only exhausted and frustrated mom out there.
First is the frequent wakings before we are ready to go to sleep. We do a long bedtime routine and I nurse and then hand my son (6.5 months) to my husband. He gets him to sleep (in our bed- with a rail) and 45 minutes later- he is up again. This repeats until finally i have to get into bed for him to stay settled. It's kind of making me feel like a prisoner. This in addition to the fact that he would NEVER take a bottle of breast milk. I feel like i have been on a VERY short leash. I don't mind co-sleeping, although the frequent night nursing usually every couple of hours can sometimes poop me out. But now that he is beginning to be quite mobile, i want to get him to sleep in the pack and play before we are ready for bed and in the crib for naps....
I guess my big question is, when you have a child that is used to be worn, slept with, and nursed whenever- how do you just start putting them down by themselves and expect they will like it. The lovey doesnt seem to work for us. I guess in need to look into the PPO (i have not read that yet), but my little one is still refusing solids for the most part and i feel like he might still need the calories a couple times a night.
I am just in search of support and any ideas that are working for you all.
Almost 9 and he has already been up twice! Hope you all sleep tonight.


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## Mirta

I was so glad when I saw this thread back up last week We need it and especially now.. DS fell asleep after 3am last night for the 3rd time in a week, granted we slept in till after 1:30 today to compensate for the late night, but this can NOT go on! I've been fighting a cold since the 8th and DS's sleep or lack there of is definitely NOT helping me get over it. Even without a nap today, DS got tired, nearly fell asleep at 8:30, nursed for 30 mins and now is up and playing with DH... I'm sooo tempted to drug him to get him to sleep!

I'm exhausted, DH is tired, heck, DS is tired, but he isn't sleeping and this "lack of sleep solution" isn't working for us.. something HAS to change! I've created a bedtime routine for DS and have tried it out a few times in the past two weeks, trying to work out any kinks... now to start doing it regularly.. If only doing it at a decent hour would actually get DS to sleep! <sigh>

I even tried wake both of us up early the last time he stayed up till 3am, in order to try to get him to sleep at a better time, but he would not fall asleep for his nap till 4pm no matter what I tried, leaving me beyond exhausted and miserable till then.. and waking from the nap at 7pm meant of course another LATE night...

I know they recommend when changing the bed time, doing so 30 mins earlier a night, but ugh, I don't want to stay up that late any more.. didn't want to do it at all in the first place...









Enough whining for now... praying we all get decent night sleeps soon!!!!

Kym


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## boatrat

Welcome Mirta and jjjwilk. We're currently on our second day of vacation and we're sort of bordering on disaster. jjjwilk, I hear you when you say "I feel like a prisoner". DS also wakes up frequently until I eventually give up and go to bed with him. We've had a couple of nights where he would sleep for over an hour by himself, but lately we've had setbacks.

Yesterday we flew for 3.5 hours, so I knew that naps would be a challenge. THen last night he slept terribly! It was one of those mornings where I was just glad the night was over. Today I was determined he was going to nap. I held him in my arms and bounced him for over 2 hours this morning because he woke up everytime I tried to put him down. He's 24 pounds and every muscle in my arms and shoulders felt like they were on fire by the time the nap was over, but at least he slept. Right now DS is holding/bouncing him for his afternoon nap. Hopefully this will result in better sleep tonight!!!

I'm trying not to be frustrated about the fact that after weeks of progress, he is refusing to be put down in a packnplay. Hopefully it is due to the new location and he'll settle down in a couple of days.

"I guess my big question is, when you have a child that is used to be worn, slept with, and nursed whenever- how do you just start putting them down by themselves and expect they will like it."

What *previously* worked for us was making the crib a happy place and putting DS down when he was drowsy and wrapped in his blanket. Then we would pat him on his butt vigorously until he dozed off. This hasn't worked at all since going on vacation, but hopefully things will improve.

Oh yeah, and have I mentioned relatives saying "you mean, he's 11 months and doesn't sleep through the night!?".


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## boatrat

Hi all,

I just wanted to post my post-travel update. During the whole vacation DS refused to lie down in a pack-n-play and had to be held for naps. But, he did nap and we mostly managed to stick to a schedule/routine. We've been back home less than 24 hours and right now he is napping in his crib! It seems all of the progress hasn't been lost and he just missed his cozy normal environment.

We're still struggling with keeping him down at night. He will go down at night in the packnplay, but wakes up frequently until I go to bed and take him with me. We're going to put our bed on the floor today (something we should have done a lot sooner). The idea is that I will just put him in bed and nurse him after the first waking session, then sneak off. I'm not sure if that is a step backwards or not, but it is frustrating when it takes 30 minutes to get him back to sleep enough for me to lie him down in the packnplay but it only takes a couple of minutes to nurse him back down.

How are the rest of ya'll doing?


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## Mirta

just wanted to let you know I haven't abandoned you all I'm just sick, possible walking pneumonia (waiting to hear back from the Drs) so we have put the sleep thing on hold.. I don't need the added stress.. though DS is driving me nutty.. after an hour of nursing... him beating his diaper like a drum, and me, pinching my nipple, climbing back and forth from one side to the other, (which is painful due to the pneumonia or whatever is going on in my chest) etc.. he is still far too awake,... I told DH, DS is his responsibility now.. just finished a much needed snack and am heading up for MUCH needed sleep!! zzzzzzzzzzz

Praying all of you get a good night sleep.. and your little ones, too!

Kym


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## boatrat

Hi Mirta, sorry to hear that you are sick. I had walking pneumonia several years ago, but I didn't have a baby to tend to back then. I'm glad your she is helping you; rest up and take care!


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## mama_mich

Ladies I have not read the entire thread here sorry. I wanted to first find out if this method would apply to a 15 mo old who no longer nurses. I really need to learn how to put my ds down for a nap with out it taking an hour with me ultimately falling asleep with him. If I do get to sneak out he is only down for a 1/2 hour. There is a huge difference in his moods contrasting a 1/2 hour to a few!! He also goes down fine at night but only if one of us lays with him. I love co-sleeping but would like to get him in his own bed for at least naps. I would like to just lay him down and have him go to sleep too!! So is this the technique for us?


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## aquamam

mama mich, we've been having a little progress on the nap front with NCSS - the suggestions (although they aren't much - I wish there was more info on naps!) are to:

- do a specific routine for each nap (ie story, lullaby, cuddle, bed)
- get them into a drowsy state,
- and put them down awake.
If there is crying, lather, rinse and repeat









Also, for short nappers, she recommends listening like a hawk for first sounds of waking and to soothe them back to sleep using whatever your best method is.

You definitely do not need to be nursing to use the NCSS methods. One of the things she addresses in her book is to break the suck/sleep association (ie nurse/paci/bottle until almost asleep only, rather than all the way). Sounds like you've already got that covered









There is an NCSS for toddlers book, I haven't read it but there might be some different suggestions for older kids. (ie positive reinforcements etc).

Good luck!


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## aquamam

Just wanted to drop in with a little update on my progess - new year's resolution is for better sleep in this house! I have recruited reinforcements for the week to entertain my oldest so I can hopefully see some results. Here's where we stand after 4 days:

the good:
- DS is now down to three naps (instead of 4 quickies)
- nap routine of story, lullaby/music/dance, nursing while shhing and patting bum til almost asleep, then down into crib for more shhing and patting til asleep
- no more naps in the swing/stroller/car (so far)
- have managed to extend naps from 1/2 hour to 1 hr 20 by doing the shh/pat bum about 50% of the time, if that doesn't work more nursing and trying again
- have best success with first nap of the day (longest and easiest to put down)
- success with PPOs at night have resulted in shorter awakenings (for baby anyway







)

the bad
- nighttime routine not working - up after about 20 minutes, then 30-45 minutes thereafter til I go to bed
- frequency of wakeups still not improving (8-10 times per night)
- now that babe knows the routine, often just lunges for breast instead of enjoying the wind-down
- naps aren't longer unless I intervene to help get him back down


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## boatrat

Hi all, I've been waiting to post since I wanted to see how things settled down after our holiday trip (which was a huge disruption to everyone's sleep.

Progress
-DS is going down much easier for naps and bedtime! I am so happy that my sweet boy enjoys taking naps and going to bed instead of fighting it every time. This has made naps and bedtime so much less stressful for both of us!
- At the end of our bedtime routine (bath, book, nurse, cuddles) he has even rolled over and put himself to sleep on occasion! This is on our bed. If this doesn't happen, I wrap him in his blanket and bounce him for a couple of minutes and then he goes to sleep and I put him in his pack'n play in our room.
- He is consistently taking 2 naps for an hour and a half each in his crib.
-At night he sometimes stays down for 1.5 - 2 hours after I first put him down (it used to be 20 or 45 minutes).

Room for Improvement
-I have not yet been able to put him down for a nap sleepy but awake.
-I have to be on standby for his naps since he often wakes at the 45 minute mark and I need to be there to comfort him back down (or if that fails, pick him up and bounce him back to sleep and hold him in my arms the rest of the nap).
-He is still waking up 8 - 10 times at night and needing to be nursed back to sleep.
-At around 4 or 5 AM he gets very restless and I have to nurse him constantly to keep him in bed. Otherwise, he wakes up and is very cranky and has to be put back to sleep after 30 minutes of groggy play. This seems to be a common complaint on this forum.

Aquamam, can you please describe in detail how you do your shhh and bum patts when you put your DS down groggy but awake? My DS just opens his eyes wide, smiles and then rolls over and starts playing if I put him down before he is just completely asleep.

I'm hoping that this weekend we can try letting DH put him to sleep and respond to him for a night to see if that cuts down on night wakings/needing to be nursed back to sleep. Suggestions welcome!


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## aquamam

Boatrat, hurray for small victories!

During the last part of the routine (nursing), I shhh in babe's ear and pat his bum softly, then when he's almost out I move him carefully into the crib and continue on with the shhing and patting. I usually lay him on his side and try to get him on his tummy so that it feels like he's being held (at least, this is my theory). He has always been a tummy sleeper due to reflux. It works about 50% of the time.

b/c he's not too mobile yet (rolling only) the crib mattress is still quite high so the transfer isn't too disruptive.

Nighttime is still on our bed, nursed to sleep - otherwise it's a battle. I've been going in right before usual wake up times and then it's quickest to settle him back to sleep. I know I need to do better re: the nighttime routine but I need to keep things flexible for my other child so I basically only do the nap routine again for nighttime.

I am also on standby for naps whenever possible (ie get babe and toddler to bed at same time - my own personal obsession). I am actually enjoying this part as I'm hanging out in babe's room, and on my second novel already. I can't remember the last time I read anything other than a baby and/or sleep book









In retrospect I wish I was doing something more like your routine. Making nursing the last step was the easiest for me, as that's always been his sleep association, but makes it difficult for any non-lactating type









Good luck with the daddy-shift this weekend - let us know how it goes


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## gmkrehbiel

OMG! I thought it was only me. I read a post on the first page and would have laughed out loud if it wouldn't wake the baby! I too am angry, sleep deprived and have kicked the cat - all three in fact.

Ds2 is 10 months old. At about 8 months (November) I started to get after the daytime food much better than I had been in hopes of some sleep. At 9 months (December) I sent DH to the library on his way home to pick up NCSS. I used it with some success with ds1 and had to figure out what I was missing with ds2.

We have made some progress, I can get Ben to sleep at 7:30 PM using the PPO and laying him down. Usually he will settle. At about 6:30 we start quieting things down, feed cereal, then play quietly in room, put on PJ's, go potty (we EC) read Good Night Moon, nurse using PPO and lay him down in his crib by 7:30. Yea!

Then he's up at 10:45ish to pee and nurse using PPO and back in his crib. Yea!

But after that all bets are off. The last few weeks he is up from 2-4 AM or from 1-3 AM or 3-6 AM. You get the idea. I do the same as I have been. Sometimes I can get him to sleep after 45-60 minutes of nursing, shhhhhhing, rocking etc. But mostly he is up. He's so tired he can't really hold his head up but he doesn't want to nurse or be held. Usually DH gets up with him and walks him/plays etc. Lots of crying and winning and yelling. Sigh........

With naps he's at 1-2 naps. They are usually 2 hours long with a brief awakning at the 45 minute mark but I can go in and rock or somesimes nurse him back down.

On December 20th he started walking, on January 5th he cut his lower incisors, on the 7th he started to clap, and today the 13th he learned to crawl up the stairs.

Is this why he's up? The moon? Bad parenting? Thoughts....suggestions? DH is threatning getting him back on schedule the Navy way. Eiks......

Gwen in MN
Homeschool Mamma to Samuel 03/25/04 & Benjamin 03/10/08
My baby is a DiaperFree baby!!! www.diaperfreebaby.org
Are baby boys born defective? NO! www.nocirc.org!!


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## aquamam

Gwen, welcome to a club you'd rather not belong to! Hopefully your membership will be temporary









Those are A LOT of developmental milestones for your little guy - could be the reason why things have changed. I hope he settles down again for you soon.

Mine also gets soooo tired, and I can tell yearns for sleep, but it eludes him. I find that if I don't get him down by the 3rd try, it's a lost cause. He's so tired, and is past responding to all the usual tricks, so it's meltdown city. the "no cry" bit in NCSS is really misleading, there is crying going on, but at least we are sharing in their misery









We are also dealing with the top 4 teeth coming in at once, and consequently are on a half-hour schedule, naps and night.

If he's getting playtime at night, that might be cause for him to have longer wakeful periods at night - what's more fun than partying with dad! I went through this with my first child. My husband got so fed up he brought her into the living room and they watched TV, and boy did she like that! Took a while to break her of that habit.

So now when DS won't resettle at night after feeding (sometimes happens, not too often thankfully) I pretend to be asleep. After about 20-30 minutes of rolling around and patting my face and complaining (no crying usually) he gets bored and finally nurses again and then goes back to sleep. (we are co-sleeping currently but I hope to get him in his crib soon for part of the night at least)

Sounds like you're already trying to settle him with minimal stimulation, and of course it's hard to complain if your husband is taking him out of the room so that you can get some needed sleep!


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## Halfasianmomma

Hi mamas,
I've started working with some of the precepts in the NCSS, and they seem to be working well on DD (6 mo.) who usually wakes 2-4 times a night and naps 5 times a day for 20 minutes max.

I've been able to work on extending her naps and diminishing the recurrence. DD now naps around 9:00 for an hour, and then around noon for 1.5 hours or more....she also has a late afternoon nap that's also an hour.

I'm wondering if other mamas have noticed that since starting the NCSS, their LO sleeps WAY more than before...Is this normal? DD used to only be able to sleep in my arms for little cat naps and now she's sleeping something like 4 hours in the day. Was she sleep deprived all this time?!


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## gmkrehbiel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Halfasianmomma* 
Is this normal? DD used to only be able to sleep in my arms for little cat naps and now she's sleeping something like 4 hours in the day. Was she sleep deprived all this time?!

Yes, and Yes. Isn't it great. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tor/smilie.gif

You just were responding to her 20 minute sleep cycling like she wanted to be awake and not a transition into a deeper sleep pattern. My ds1 had a 20 minute sleep cycle that almost was the end of me until I read the NCSS and learned to sooth him back to sleep. Enjoy it while it lasts. Soon she will be transitioning from 2 naps a day down to 1.

Gwen


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## sunnydays28

New member here but I have read off and on for the past year. I am hoping you have some insight for us.

We are currently reading NCSS, making a plan and will start some changes Friday (tomorrow) night. We have all kinds of issues: only nurses to fall asleep, won't lay on her back and sleeps in carseat due to reflux and now habit, still wakes 3,4,5 times a night (between 8 PM-5 AM), can't self-soothe (wakes up crying and will only nurse back to sleep), doesn't sleep in crib at all and she is not much of a napper, unless one of us is holding her or she falls asleep in her carseat and we bring her inside. She is also in full-time child care during the week, so we don't have complete control over naps, but they will try whatever we ask, within reason. Good thing is we already have a great bedtime routine and she goes to sleep easily, at the breast of course. She is 7 months old, 17 pounds and should be able to go at least 5-6 hours without eating. So do you all recommend tackling all of these issues at once or one at a time? Our largest issue is waking to eat and then having to burp so she is fully awake 20-30 minutes every couple of hours and the carseat sleeping. We would love to put her to sleep in the co-sleeper at 7 PM, wake once to eat around midnight, then up for the day at 6 AM (we all have to be at work at 7 AM).

Thanks for any advice!


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## aquamam

Hi sunnydays,

parent of fellow refluxer here (silent in our case). Ours slept in the swing tons until about 5 months. Slightly OT but I'll offer some reflux-sleeping advice!









tummy sleep, if you're comfortable with it. Between months 3-4, mine actually slept through the night! And now both naps and night sleeps are longer if he's on the tummy. Considering he rolls now I'm not worried at all about SIDS (I wasn't before either, frankly, but then again this is my second child so I'm a lot more relaxed about everything)

side lying nurse for nighttimes. I stopped burping babe around 4 months at nighttime, and found if I nursed laying down I never heard any refluxy sounds anyway. So it was right back to sleep for both of us. What has happened for you when you don't keep upright/burp after feeding at night?

reflux resolved for us around 6 months, right around when he could sit up and when we introduced solids. He still doesn't eat much at 7.5 months, but I think it's enough to weigh the food down a bit so it doesn't come back up. Plus I think the stomach muscles etc are stronger now with the sitting.
For nighttimes, you can try the pantly pull off mentioned in the book, to break the suck to sleep habit. Note that this takes a few weeks to establish and will get worse before it gets better so you need to be prepared to stick it out.

For naps, are you doing a routine? You might want to try one that your caregiver can do (ie no nursing), and ends with your babe in bed drowsy. She's a stickler on the no napping in arms bit.

If you have the fortitude and support of your caregivers, I'd try them all at once, otherwise, focus on what you see as the biggest problem area.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!


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## boatrat

Hi everyone! We actually have been having great sleep in our house. I haven't counted, but I think DS has *only* been waking up 5 or 6 times per night (as oppossed to 8 - 10). And he has been sleeping from 7 pm to 7 am, so there has been some improvement. Also, after our bedtime routine he is still rolling over and putting himself to sleep the majority of the time!

Naps have been going just so-so this past week since he is back with his nanny while I'm back at work 3 days a week. Aquamam, your message below just made me realize I may be part of the problem! Our nap routine involves nursing. It was working really well for us, but maybe that's why the nanny has had trouble getting him down to nap. I guess I should try to change that over the long weekend. I remember you had a really cool nap routine so I'll go back and re-read that.

I have been able to put DS down for a nap drowsy but awake one time, so we'll see if that holds out over the next few days. Wish me luck!

The other thing we're going to try is to have DH try to put DS back to sleep (obviously without nursing) at least half of the night over the weekend. I'll let you know how it goes!

Halfasianmomma, yes I've noticed that DS sleeps more now that we're on the NCSS. He's now sleeping 12 hours at night + 2 - 3 hours during the day. Before he was sleeping 10 hours at night and 3 hours in the day.

sunnydays28, I didn't have to deal with reflux, but DS was 10 months old and could only fall asleep in his ergo (with an hour of bouncing) when we started. Now he falls asleep in my arms almost without a fuss. Hang in there.


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## boatrat

Hi everyone,

So first off I must have been crazy to say that I would take nursing out of our naptime routine. No way that would work. Instead I'm just going to suggest that DS's nanny gives him a bottle as part of her nap routine with him when I'm gone.

And, secondly, we have not yet tried to have DH respond to DS's night wakings. DS has two new teeth coming in and has been running a fever for the last couple of nights, so I don't think that DS or I are quite ready for this. For now I'm just going to stick with the PPOs more consistently.

Also, I've noticed this last week that he's really fighting harder than normal against the second nap of the day. Normally he naps from 9ish to 11 ish, then from 2ish to 3ish. But lately its been 3ish before I can get him down, and its been a struggle. I think he may be trying to transition down to one nap a day. I guess this can happen as early as 12 months, right? It took me an hour to get him down today even though he was showing all of his tired signs. I probably should not have kept trying so long, and tomorrow I won't.

It's like they say - as soon as you figure them out, they change! On the upside, he went down like an angel for his first nap of the day. I even put him down drowsy but awake!


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## aquamam

A bottle makes perfect sense to sub for the breast step when you're not around (I wish mine would take one, or eat a bit of solid food for that matter!)

We are also dealing with teething (all the top 4) plus illlness so I'm back to my old tricks of nursing to sleep, and all night long. hopefully it won't last too long.

It's early but your LO could be dropping his nap - typically it's the morning one that goes tho. My first dropped hers around 14 months. When she finally did only one it was a 3 hour nap from 12:30-3:30 and soooo sweet


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## geenaleigh

I have read the NCSS twice and have just recently been able to get a consistent routine. My guy is 9 months and hasn't had a restful night sleep since he was born. But the last two days he did take two good naps. One for an hour in the a.m. and one for 2 hours in the afternoon. And he is going to sleep easier at bedtime too. We have a pretty short routine but it seems to be helping. We change into jammies and brush his teeth, (well gums really, no teeth yet) read a short book, I sing a song to him and snuggle until he falls asleep. We have his crib set up as a sidecar so I kind of half lay in the crib with him. He still has a lot of trouble staying asleep but success with the naps is a BIG improvement!







: Plus he's teething so I'm not expecting too much right now. But I want to try and keep up a routine anyway. He seems to do better that way!
BTW thanks for starting this thread! I needed some support!







I am right there with all of you other sleep deprived moms who feel Frustrated and Overly Tired!


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## crosscat

I am reading the NC NAP Solution and have a few questions regarding naps, which I hope are all right to inquire about here...

My little one is 3 months old, has slept wonderfully at night (we bedshare and I love it) since about six weeks old, but for napping, I'm noticing she has OCSS/she is a catnapper. If I let her sleep in my arms or in the wrap, she goes right back to sleep at the end of her sleep cycle, but I'm trying to encourage her to nap in her crib. Of course it takes a lot of effort to get her to go back to sleep when she wakes in the crib.

What I'm wondering about is this:

Pantley says she should be sleeping for 90 minutes or more during her naps. If she wakes up 45, or even 20, minutes into the nap, and it takes me another 30 minutes to get her back to sleep, how much longer should she sleep ideally to complete her nap? Does the nap need to "start over" and she should sleep for an additional 90 minutes? Does she only need to sleep another 45 minutes for a total of 90?

I'm really confused about this, but I'm not seeing it addressed in the nap book. Does anyone know, or have any thoughts, opinions, or experience to share?

I would really appreciate it!


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## boatrat

Hi Crosscat, that is a tough one. Is it possible for you to stay near your LO and respond to her before she fully wakes up so that it doesn't take 30 minutes to get her back down? If not, my guess would be that she just isn't old enough yet to consolidate her naps. I think Pantley addresses that somewhere, but I can't remember.

Congrats to you, though, for reading the book and trying the techniques early on. I didn't start until DS was over ten months old! I really wish I had read it earlier, but we're still seeing improvements.


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## aquamam

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crosscat* 
I am reading the NC NAP Solution and have a few questions regarding naps, which I hope are all right to inquire about here...

I didn't know she had a nap book out - is it new? She probably got tired of everyone complaining about the lack of nap info in NCSS







The only thing in the sleep book about naps is to do a routine, and hover over the crib or bed at LO's wakeup time and try to get them back down by any means necessary.

Personally I only try for 15 minutes or so, after that it's pretty much a lost cause. And if you do manage to get them back down, I would count the total time, myself.

I'm happy if I can get an hour. I wouldn't stress about your LO not getting exactly 90 minutes. Babies vary widely in their need for sleep.


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## heather+mike2005

Subbing. Things are ok for me now but when I go back to work in March I know I'll be relying on this thread a whole lot more. I've already read through the beginning of the book but plan to read it fully one of these days!

Hugs to all of you frustrated mamas and I wish nothing but lots of sleep and peaceful nights for you and your babies.


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## purewellspring

subbing this thread...







but sort of wishing I didn't need to!








We've only just started our NCSS journey for real, after holidays and a move I decided not to add anything else until we settled!

Today is day two of naps in her own bed...and this morning she slept for almost an hour all by herself, but stayed asleep when she stirred and slept in my arms for another half hour! That's an hour and a half nap!!! miraculous!







And now she's been down almost 40 minutes without any help from me. She won't go down until fully asleep, but I think I'm ok just getting her to sleep at all right now.

I'm feeling very encouraged today...because last night she wouldn't sleep unless in DH's arms or attached to my boob. And I find it difficult to sleep like that.









And can I just say that even in only skimming this thread for 10 minutes, I'm SOOOO happy to find other moms with babes like mine, who possess just two switches: Awake and asleep. No drowsy. Ahhh, we're not weird. Nice to know!

So anway, Hi!! I know I'll be back.


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## boatrat

Welcome Purewellspring!

Quote:

I didn't know she had a nap book out - is it new?
So yes, Pantley has written a book specifically on naps! The skeptical side of my personality thinks that maybe she purposefully held out on nap info in the NCSS in anticipation of writing this book...at any rate, I really do love Pantley's approach so I am now the proud owner of the NC Nap Solution as well. I haven't read it in whole yet, but there does seem to be some good ideas.

I like the "Pantley Dance" for helping to transition babies who are accustomed to napping in arms to napping in the bed. The general idea is that you slowly get the baby accustomed to stillness so that the crib is not such a change.To quickly summarize, when the babe is in your arms and drowsy but awake, you start gently dancing/humming/singing/shhhing. Then you stop the motion and either continue with the sound or stop (it depends on the baby's disposition). Then you start with the motion again and stop. Repeat. Eventually, you lie the baby down in the crib, feet first, all the while continuing to hum/sing/shhh. Then either pat the baby or just keep your hands on them. Of course, if they become fully awake and cry, start over or just do what works.

I haven't tried it yet but will give it a go tonight. This week has been sort of bleh. The naps are going OK (we're still at 2/day) but at night he is nursing allll the time. I haven't been consistent with the PPOs because he has been waking up fully at 4 AM if I do not let him nurse as much as he wants. I'm kind of in a rut and my nipples are sore. I think tonight I'll be more firm with the PPOs and if he wakes up hand him to DH. (It's just so hard at night when I just want to sleep at whatever cost!)


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## boatrat

I need some encouragement! The night before last I must have been cuddling DS in an akward position because I woke up with my wrist aching. It's still hurting me, and that makes it difficult since I typically have to bounce DS for several (or many) minutes to get him to sleep.

Then, last night I tried to be more consistent with the PPOs and guess what! He woke up at 4:30 AM. Since I can't really pick him up and hold him right now (due to aching wrist) DH bounced him back to sleep. Then DS slept from around 5:15 to 7 but was attached to my nipple almost hte whole time which meant I didn't sleep well.

I try to remind myself that we have made a lot of progress since now he will nap in his crib and go to sleep for bedtime without being in a carrier so now I have some of my evening time back. But I feel like I just can't reduce his night wakings. If I try to pat him or sshhhh him when he wants to nurse, it just doesn't work. I would like to have another baby sometime but I just can't see that happening until we get DS to sleep better.


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## aquamam

Boatrat, I am with you on the night wakings - it's still about 10 per night over here. About 4 of them are before my bedtime, so I have taken to reading in the chair in our room at night with a headlamp on to prevent the constant back and forth from the living room (upside, getting lots of reading done)

I wish I had advice on how to make that part better - it's the biggest challenge for me in all this.

How do you bounce your DS - by walking around? When my DS was into being bounced I used an exercise ball, it was great for my abs









I admit I've gotten lazy with the "putting them down drowsy" bit - I think this is probably the key to improvement for higher needs kids like ours - ie when they learn to go to sleep on their own, when they wake at night they may be able to go BACK to sleep on their own. (in the words of monty python - that is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it).


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## boatrat

Aquamam, thanks for the commiseration and the tip on the exercise ball. Yeah, right now we are just walking and bouncing. My abs could definitely use the workout!

This morning DS was up at 5:20 AM and wouldn't go back down. Fortunately, DH usually takes those morning shifts for me so I'm not a complete mess.

I think you're right that we need to encourage our babes to fall asleep on their own. I've been able to nurse DS until he's almost asleep and then let him fall asleep on his own a few times....maybe I should try to stick to that approach and just let him fall asleep on the bed instead of working so hard to get him down in the packnplay. He's only in there for 20 or 45 minutes anyway before he wakes up!

Quote:

have taken to reading in the chair in our room at night with a headlamp on to prevent the constant back and forth from the living room (upside, getting lots of reading done)
I love the headlamp idea! I'll have to try to find my old one from my camping/backpacking days.


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## MsZelda

wow - I've just been reading this thread for the last few nights, not sure whether to laugh or cry that there are so many of us in the same boat. It's too bad that there aren't more people posting who have it figured out - it's like a self-selecting sample of people learning to live with it ... but it sure helps knowing you're not alone.

I'm in a similar situation to many of the posters here. My 4 mo daughter also wakes almost hourly and cannot go back to sleep without a nurse (albeit a brief, no-drama, 15 minute comfort nurse and we co-sleep). I'd really like if we could get to the point that DH could resettle her so I could get more than 90 mins of sleep at a time OR an evening out at some point in the foreseeable future. This might require her taking a bottle (something she rejects right now) or just getting her to dissociate sleep from nursing so once she is down (usually around 7:30) I might be able to go out for a few hours.

Am I being crazy and expecting too much at this age? My biggest fear is that DH is getting impatient with it and is impressed by our Dr's authoritative no-nonsense explanation of the simplicity and efficacy of CIO (with minimal checking and consoling). Also, there are times (like .... now) when I'm sick and exhausted and would LOVE to just sleep for a stretch. As another poster mentioned, I am on a short leash, and I would really like to loosen it up.

I have the NCSS but, honestly, I get a bit confused about how to target specific areas. How does one move from *nurse to sleep 10x night* to *pat to sleep a couple of times a night*?

I'd love your ideas, sympathies, etc.

thank you for this thread!!


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## forrestguy

For us, none of that stuff from the book has really held true. After I read that book I started really encouraging longer napping and made sure he was getting to sleep by 7:30. He was still waking up every hour. So then, one day, he accidentally didn't really nap at all and he slept for six hours straight that night. The first time since infancy! I picked up Dr. Sears' baby book the other day and he totally advocates co-sleeping and nursing at night, but does say that it's good to have dad get baby to sleep. He also advocates taking baby off the breast before he falls asleep, which is really hard, but I think is easier when baby is used to dad patting or singing him back to sleep. My baby is fourteen months and since he's been napping less and going to bed later, with dad putting him to bed at night and patting him down when he wakes up the first time, he sleeps sooo much better.


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## boatrat

Hi all,

I just wanted to check in and say where we were now. Things are still trending towards improvement. I think it's been about 2.5 months since we started NCSS and I also recently read NCNS (no cry nap solutions).

what's good
- DS is still taking two naps per day at fairly consistent times. I've been using the Pantley Dance in the NCNS to cut down on the amount of bouncing it takes to get him to sleep. Today it took less than 5 minutes from start to finish, and mostly just holding him in my arms while I shush him. (The total nap routine is probably 30 minutes since I carry him in the sling to get drowsy, then read to him in the rocker, nurse him, etc. But it was the in arms part that I wanted to cut down on since he's heavy and my arms are hurting!)
-Ar night, DS is putting himself to sleep next to me in our bed! This is sort of by necessity since he was nursing himself almost to sleep for awhile but since he's going through a biting phase and I keep having to take him off of my breast he's had to do it himself. This takes about 30 minutes from lights out to sleep. I'm so proud of my little man for this big achievement.
-At night DS sleeps from 1 -3 hours without waking, trending towards three hours. This is great.

room for improvement
-his naps are ~1.5 hours, but most of the time I have to hold him for the last 45 minutes or so. I just can't get him to stay in his crib and sleep. Even if I hover over him and pat him he still wakes up often. Thanks goodness I have an ipod touch so I can surf Mothering.commune while he naps in my arms!
-I still put him down almost totally asleep for naps (not drowsy but awake).
-He is still probably waking up 6 or so times at night, but it is definitely less than before. I was even able to pat him back to sleep one time last night!We had some setbacks since he has been sick, so again I haven't been super-consistent with PPOs so that probably hasn't helped us.

Kellymama, I agree that it is hard to envision going from 10 wakings/night to patting back to sleep, but I can already see that on the whole we are moving in that direction. Stick with it!


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## colleentara

Hi everyone--
I'm feeling desperate--the sleep deprivation is making me depressed and I am not enjoying anything. I just want to enjoy this time of Finn's life! I find myself considering CIO methods--but I know I won't be able to do it.
He is 10 months old--a recovered refluxer that now has the habit of eating small, frequent meals (breastfeeding).
Since going back to work (part time) at 8 months, I've had to supplement some (I don't have the best supply). This past week I've been trying to give him more milk in the day so that he's not waking at night out of hunger.
Finn rarely sleeps 2 hours; most often it's between 1 and two. Last night after 1:15am he couldn't settle again--tossing and turning until 6am. Teething? I think--but nothing popping through. It seems he's been teething for the past month!
He sleeps in an Amby next to our bed and also with us--but I am not getting good (read--any!) sleep. So--I want to transition him to a crib. (he's also outgrowing the Amby bed)
Has anyone had success??? It's nice to see that I'm not the only one struggling, but it makes me wonder if the NCSS will ever work?
I have routines and I am successful with the PPO most of the time, but I can't even imagine putting him down drowsy or him self-soothing upon waking in the night.
I don't want to do any type of CIO, but I'm feeling so desperate and helpless. I just need some sleep. My husband does shifts in the night--but he's feeling the same as me.
Any ideas, successes or advice?
thanks mamas.
-Colleen


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## CHoney

Hi colleentara, that must be really difficult to get no sleep! My DS started waking up every 2 hours at night and stay awake from 4 or 5am for 2 hours before going back to sleep. I was feeling miserable and depressed with no sleep...and I don't even go to work during the day!

I wanted to continue co-sleeping, but last night I tried putting him in his crib in his own room for the first time, and he only woke up once at 3am for a quick nibble and then I got him at 7 to come cuddle with me cause I missed him. Who knows what will happen tonight though! It was probably a fluke he slept.

Anyways, maybe your son needs more room to sleep? My DS slept with us or in his cradle, but last month I started putting him in his crib in his room for naps during the day with his mobile on, so he got familiar with being in there. I noticed he liked to stretch out when he slept in his crib, and would nap for up to 2 hours (before he would nap in my arms for 30 mins only). So I think he needed more room. We also tried putting him in his pack n'play at the end of our bed, but it was noisy and would wake him up if he moved.

Maybe you could try putting your son in his crib for a nap during the day? Or try it at night and see how he likes it?

Here is our routine: Usually my DS has a quick nap after dinner (in our arms), and later I nurse him a lot and then DH rocks him to sleep around 11-11:30pm, whenever he seems tired. During the day, I put DS down for a nap while he's awake, and he will fall asleep in his crib during the day if I turn on his mobile within a few minutes if he's tired. Sometimes he will fuss for 5 minutes or so, but then he is out like a light. If he doesn't fall asleep in his crib, I will nurse him and hold him till he's deeply asleep and then I put him in his crib. I tried pulling him off the nipple before he goes to sleep, but that really upsets him, so I find it easier just to nurse him to sleep instead.

ETA: My son slept well again in his own room. DH told me a few nights ago I was snoring and was waking up DS! I still miss having him in our room, but I'm happy we're both sleeping better. Good luck!


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## purewellspring

Colleentara, I am so with you! My dd is 9 months old and sounds just like your Finn! Her sleep has gotten progressively worse over the past few months, and while I think I know why (we moved, and then have been traveling a few weeks each month with my DH's new job), it certainly doesn't make it easier to not sleep more than an hour at a time.

I wish I had advice, but I'm in the same boat as you! So I guess...just know you're not alone. I will say, last night I tried something different out of desperation (dh is out of town, she's sick with an ear infection, I think some teething - but nothing coming through either - getting ready to crawl, and going through a growth spurt)...I propped myself up with a couple of pillows, and we sprawled out on the whole bed and I just nursed her lying down whenever she woke up. (Normally nursing lying down only results in neither of us sleeping well, because she doesn't really get any milk, and I normally can't sleep while she's nursing) I can't even remember if she woke up more than once! She woke up and started chattering and I was sure it was maybe 2 am...and it was 7:30! So I don't know what happened, but for some reason we both got sleep!

It makes me wonder, given CHoney's awesome advice, if my dd needs more space, too. Because last night the two of us took up the whole king bed, and we both finally slept. Hmm...

Then again, for her nap today it took nearly 45 minutes to get her down, and that's way longer than it's been taking. So I have no idea.

I hope some other people have some workable advice for both of us! I'm with you, in that I really don't want to use CIO, but there are moments when I'm up for the 10th time at 3am for the 3rd MONTH in a row that I wonder if it wouldn't help all of us...







It'd be nice to know that NCSS does work, from someone who's done it!


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## Thing1Thing2

bump


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## NanoMama

I have tried to start a more formal bedtime routine apart from just changing into PJs and turning the lights off but my dd (almost 8 months) starts to fuss immediately when we enter the family bedroom as the ONLY thing she wants to do at that point is lie down and nurse. When I try to incorporate some book play or massage or even just cuddling she gets ++ upset (crying...) until I give her a breast. I can let her nurse and then do some cuddle time but she will most often be ready to nurse to sleep at that point (this, btw, is generally after about 30-45 minutes or so of suckling...).
Does this happen with anyone else? Any advice/thoughts?


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## Zimbah

I'm going to give NCSS a try as my 5.5 mo DD has been waking every hour for three weeks now and it's killing me. I know this isn't a long time compared to some but it's enough to drive me insane and I can't enjoy her or be as good a mummy as I want to be. Also in the past week her naps have gone to hell, she wakes after 30 mins or so even when I'm right there with her, or when I'm pushing her in the buggy or car, which previously would have kept her asleep for much longer.

I haven't got the book yet (have ordered it so it should come in the next few days) but I want to get started tonight to take advantage of DH being around to help / provide support. DD can only fall asleep on the boob so I guess the PPO is where I should start? If I could sleep while she's eating I wouldn't mind but I can't (we do co-sleep but I just can't fall asleep while bf'ing) so I need to get her to be able to fall asleep without the boob. Even transitioning her to a dummy would be an improvement.

So can anyone help me with how to get started - I've read all of this thread but without reading the book am not quite sure. Can I try just doing the PPO - should I do that just when I put her to bed (with me) or continue it all through the night at every feed?


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## aquamam

Hi Zimbah,

Definitely do the PPO, that is what helped the most for me (previously my nipple was in his mouth all night long). Be prepared though for it to get worse before it gets better, ie longer awake periods for both of you, and for me it took about a week before he got it, and started to delatch and roll over on his own, or wouldn't protest if I PPO'd him. Unfortunately for me, this didn't result in fewer awake periods, but no allnight latching was an improvement for me anyway.

Do the PPO all the time through the night, if you can. Pantley says the first time they fall asleep is the most important, however for us that was the worst time to PPO (most protests).

Also I would recommend starting a small wind down routine before nighttime and naps (something every sleep book I've read recommends).

Good luck!


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## aquamam

Hi NanoMama,

Mine also fusses and wants to get to the "main event", and I've found it's worst when he's overtired. What time are you starting your routine? For us, we start 3 hours after the 2nd nap ends (so we start at 630 as he wakes from nap around 330), with a 7pm bedtime. Starting later than 3 hours from the last nap results in a tired baby that has a harder time winding down.

Counterintuitive I know, but maybe it'll work for you...


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## Loralz

Well, we have a kinda success story here.









Starting at about 3 months old, we started a bedtime routine. Change into sleeper (and she doesn't wear the sleeper any other time) while getting lotioned down and diaper changed. We read three books, have worship, pray and then nurse to sleep lying down then move her to her co-sleeper or pack 'n' play. Lately she's been needing to nurse a bit before the routine so I do that.

I started doing the PPO but wasn't consistent about it. But after a couple of weeks, she started pulling off when she was through and she still does that--sometimes. lol

She's 6.5 months old now. All of a sudden--and I don't know how long it will last!--she started taking 2 naps a day, regardless of whether we're at home in the car, or in Wal-Mart.







She starts rubbing her eyes, I nurse her and walk if we're out and about, and out she goes. If we're at home, I nurse her to sleep on our bed and leave her there.

Now, if I could just figure out how to get her to sleep through the night...


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## wetcement101

I hesitate jinxing myself by putting this in print, but 15 mo old DD is down to waking 1-2 times a night in her crib. Down from 5-7 times of screaming bloody murder while having violent fits while bedsharing. I hardly know what to do with myself! I miss snuggling with her, but the extra sleep makes me feel like I won the lottery.


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## Baby_Cakes

Hi everyone!

I just read the book and did the logs. Wow, do I see room for improvement in DD's prebedtime routine, and her naps just plain suck.

We're on phase 1. I cannot figure out how to put this little girl down after she's asleep. No matter how I get her to sleep (nursing, rocking, swing) as soon as I try to set her down, she wakes up and needs to nurse back to sleep. Within 10 min she's asleep, I use the gentle removal technique and I can sneak away, but she usually wakes back up again within 40 min and I always end up rocking her back to sleep and then keeping her on me until I'm ready for bed myself. This has got to stop! I can't take it anymore!

By the 3rd time of rocking her, my arms ache, my back aches, and I've had it. I always give in and just let her fall asleep on me and keep her on me until I go to bed. But I've got to keep trying. That's all I can do, I suppose.

I'm looking fwd to the support here, though. Glad this thread exists.


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## Cartesia

*No matter how I get her to sleep (nursing, rocking, swing) as soon as I try to set her down, she wakes up and needs to nurse back to sleep. Within 10 min she's asleep, I use the gentle removal technique and I can sneak away, but she usually wakes back up again within 40 min and I always end up rocking her back to sleep and then keeping her on me until I'm ready for bed myself. This has got to stop! I can't take it anymore!*

I had this problem too, but for the past few weeks it seems to have changed. Here is what I think has helped -

When I do the gentle removal (the Pantley Pull-off, right?) I make sure that he isn't TOTALLY asleep. This means that sometimes he fusses when I take him off. What I have noticed works is repetitions close together. So, I take him off, he fusses, I immediately put him back on, then within a minute take him off again. This is how it is described in the NCSS, but when I was first doing it I waited a lot longer between repetitions because I was afraid he would get upset and not fall asleep if I didn't give him enough time to resettle. But actually, the shorter time between pull offs seems to be what has helped him settle while still sorta awake.

If I let him nurse till he is out cold and then pull him off, he wakes after 40 minutes. If I do it this other way he doesn't. Also, if he does fall deep asleep before I pull him off I will actually pick him up and move him or do something to wake him a little so that he can put himself back to sleep. It takes patience because at first it takes a lot longer to get to sleep (10-15 repetitions for us) but it really does get easier.

I also had success with pulling him off and then patting/shushing. I had to KEEP doing the patting for the full 40 minutes at first or he would wake up, but now I only do it for about 10 minutes. I think I did it for 40 minutes for about a week and it was worth it!

Hope this helps.


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## Zimbah

I've had my first night of success with the PPO







!! I've been attempting the PPO for just under two weeks but up till now DD has been going mostly just a bit too much to sleep on the boob before I take her off - it's so hard to find the exact moment and I keep missing it amidst the multiple repetitions. But tonight I fed her in bed as usual, then had to get her up to change her as she'd pooped. Got back into bed, she wanted to go back on the boob but she was full really so she was fussing. So I lay with my arm against her (so she wasn't immediately next to my breast) and rubbed her tummy and shushed her, she whimpered and whined a bit and thrashed her head but didn't cry. After 20 minutes she fell asleep. I'm so excited, I know it will be two steps forward one step back but I feel like we're getting somewhere and I'm so proud of her (and me) for going to sleep "all on her own"


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## MLA

I joined this community a while ago but then never posted. While looking for NCSS support, I found this thread on Google, and I'm so glad I did.

Unfortunately, being so sleep deprived, reading all 18 pages of it has proven impossible.

So here's the deal. I've started to implement NCSS suggestions, but things aren't going very well. I've seen some modest improvement over the past two weeks. Actually, I think I may have seen some really good progress, but he regressed, and now we're only slightly better than before. Things started off w/8 night wakings, with the longest sleep stretch being 2 hours. At my 2nd sleep log, we were at 8 night wakings, with a longest stretch of 2 hours 49 minutes. Another improvement is that once or twice a night I'm able to soothe him back to sleep without nursing.

My boy is 6.5 months old. We cosleep and breastfeed. Right now, I'm using the gentle removal method whenever possible (though he's getting wise to it and will sometimes grab my hand and push it away), and I'm trying to start a verbal sound cue. That's not taking yet, but I know I need to give it time. I've also tried to implement a bedtime routine of massage and specific bedtime books; however, he'll have none of the massage, so we're down to the books and nursing to sleep.

My issue is the frequent night wakings with a need to nurse back to sleep. I'm wondering if anyone has had success w/NCSS while co-sleeping and breastfeeding and what your sleep plan looked like. I just wonder if I'm missing something in mine, or if you have any suggestions.

Also to note -- Every time I get him to sleep at the beginning of the night, he wakes up 30-45 minutes later, needing me to nurse him back to sleep.

Thanks so much!


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## Cartesia

Sorry, this is really long - but I am excited and have a lot to share!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zimbah* 
I'm so excited, I know it will be two steps forward one step back but I feel like we're getting somewhere and I'm so proud of her (and me) for going to sleep "all on her own"









Zimbah, that is so great!!! Thanks for posting the specifics.

MLA - did you read the reply I wrote to BabyCakes? My DS ALWAYS woke up 30-40 minutes after falling asleep until I tried patting his back for the whole 40 minutes - actually, I think I kept patting until about 10 minutes after his usual waking. I had to do that for about a week but after that he stopped waking at the first sleep cycle. - since your DS is older, it might take even longer to change the habit, but if you find a non-nursing way that keeps him asleep and you can do it for the entire sleep cycle it might be worth it.

For the rest of the night - does your DS wake at predictable times or not? Does it seem like every sleep cycle of a certain length? Can you catch him when he first stirs, before he really starts waking up? If so, have you tried patting/shushing to try to KEEP him asleep? I found with my DS that if I catch him early enough I can sometimes help him stay asleep through those sleep cycles with patting/shushing. Actually, in our case it is patting/OMing... he doesn't respond as well to shushing but he likes a nice low OM.....The problem is that I have to do it constantly for a long time - as soon as I stop, he wakes.

So right now I am too tired to do that & we are focusing more on the first falling asleep of the night, but once that is easier for my LO I think I will try the long hours of patting again b/c I'm pretty sure that if I do it every night for at least a week it might change the waking pattern.

My DS also resisted massage at bedtime so I started doing it in the morning when he was in his best mood. I always ask him if he wants a massage and rub my hands together - now he knows what that means and gets excited when I do it. Once he got used to it, I started doing it at night and now he usually wants one. If he is fussy I just do his legs. It has definitely become a strong signal that it is bedtime. I like using it as a bedtime cue better than a bath b/c I don't think he needs to bathe every day and the massage can be done super quick if need be.

AND - we are having NCSS success too! Last night was the fourth night in a row that my LO went from still-awake to sleeping, off of the boob! In fact, one of those nights he did it on the very first removal!!!!! I was in shock.

Also, I used to have to nurse and re-nurse multiple times with most waking, at 15-30 minutes intervals, usually 2-4 times with most wakings. So even though he would only REALLY nurse about 3 times a night, he was actually waking more like 9-10 times.

THIS SEEMS TO HAVE GONE AWAY!!!!! So now he has been nursing 2-4 times a night without the extra wakings. What a huge difference for my sleep. I have actual 3 and sometimes 4 hour chunks. And now I can be pretty sure that his night waking is mostly about hunger - he has turned into a squirmy wormy for daytime nursing and too distracted to eat as much as he can at night. As long as I know he CAN put himself back to sleep I am happy to nurse him 2-4 times at night. I just didn't like the idea that he was nursing all night b/c it was his only option for being able to sleep.

I have noticed that it is easier to add new habits then to try to change old ones. These days when I do the PPO he rolls his head to the opposite side and then flips over. That part took us several weeks to get going but now it is like clockwork. Sometimes I have tried to keep him on his side to make re-boobing easier and he immediately roots and wants to latch again. So, it seems like his head-turn/roll has become a sleep cue for him. He is now able to let go of the nipple and try to fall asleep without it. He will usually try for at least a few minutes and sometimes much longer before fussing for the boob again.

This is after TONS and TONS of failed attempts. We started NCSS about 6 weeks ago, but it is only in the past 3 weeks or so that I really got serious and I notice a huge difference.


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## MLA

Thanks, Cartesia. I'll give your suggestions a try. I plan to go in tonight after 25-30 minutes to start soothing him again. Hopefully that will keep him asleep past that first sleep cycle. If that doesn't work, I'll give the shushing and patting a try for the entire sleep cycle tomorrow night.

I've had major success tonight, though, in putting him to sleep. He's been popping off the boob to fall asleep pretty consistently now for a little while, which is good. Tonight, though, he did a pattern that often happens: nurse, pop off the boob, roll over and wake up. HOWEVER, tonight I was able to soothe him back to sleep (on his tummy --eek!) with shushing and gentle stroking. He'd lift his head up and look at me, and I continued w/the shushing and rubbing until his head didn't come up any longer. Then he'd open his eyes and look at me, but I continued w/the shushing and stroking until no more eyes opening, and he's asleep! Yeeeeee-haaaaaawwww!


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## Cartesia

Congrats MLA.
That sounds just like the pattern we have started - it has now been 6 nights in a row that we have done that. It is hilarious when he looks up at me & pushes up onto his arms but then goes to sleep anyhow.
My LO sleeps on his tummy too. I'm not worried about it. My yardstick for risk is: do you drive on the freeway???


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## Astraia

Just found this thread (I look at MDC regularly, how'd I miss it?) and am glad to have found it! I haven't read all the pages, I read the first 5 and last 2 and am calling it quits at that.

My LO is 4.5 months old, and we started NCSS at 3 months. We're seeing limited success because... well... I cheat. I follow it until it starts to work, then get lazy and regress and then start all over again.

Usually she stops napping and starts waking up every hour or two at night to nurse back to sleep, and then I pull out NCSS and start over at the beginning. The biggest reason is the PPO is usually a complete failure, I can lay there with her for hours trying until I finally give in and let her nurse right to sleep (or get frustrated and go watch TV with her until she falls asleep). And then on top of that, she gets wise to the fact that I'm goign to try PPO as soon as she's almost asleep, so she fights sleep like crazy so that I can't, meaning she just doesn't nap, and doesn't fall asleep easily at night.

Things we've kept: bedtime routine, white noise, quite-time before naps and bed, I've tried introducing a lovey but she doesn't seem to care at all so I stopped that.

Recently we've had some success though- I do PPO when she's mostly asleep, and about half the time she'll roll onto her side, cry and arch her back, then instantly fall asleep. The other half she'll just keep crying until I let her latch back on again. I was so thrilled the first time this happened, and then she slept a solid 2 hrs.

To people having issues with naps: what i did to get her to sleep longer (she was sleeping a total of 30 min every nap time) is I'd sit in her room with my knitting, and then the second she started making waking-up noises I'd nurse her back to sleep before she woke up completely (totally not what it says in NCSS) and slowly her naps stretched from 30 -45 - 70 min. I don't know why it worked, but it did?


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## MLA

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cartesia* 
Congrats MLA.
That sounds just like the pattern we have started - it has now been 6 nights in a row that we have done that. It is hilarious when he looks up at me & pushes up onto his arms but then goes to sleep anyhow.
My LO sleeps on his tummy too. I'm not worried about it. My yardstick for risk is: do you drive on the freeway???

At this point, he flips around so much that I don't worry about the tummy sleeping, really.

Thought I'd let you know that going in 10 minutes before his normal waking and soothing him did the trick. He managed to make it through that sleep cycle and onto the 2nd. Unfortunately, I got sidetracked last night and missed my opportunity to go in and keep him asleep, so he woke up after his normal 40 minutes. But I'm hopeful that I'll be able to do it again tonight and keep up with it.

In somewhat unrelated news, my boy is taking a nap right now . . . IN HIS CRIB. It's been weeks since I've been able to put him in his crib to sleep at all. He used to always nap in the crib, which was good, but then he decided only my bed would do. Today, he fell asleep on me, and I was able to set him down in the crib without him waking up. This is huge!


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## Carhootel

It's great to read about all of your successes and the areas needing improvement. I have an 8 week old (today! yay!) and I read the NCSS a couple weeks ago. The biggest thing we've gained is that I can put my ds down while he's drowzy but eyes open and he'll go to sleep. I really realized that I was keeping him from getting to sleep sometimes with all my shushing and cuddling. Don't get me wrong, we still cuddle a lot! We have a good nighttime routine which includes a book, cuddling with mom and dad, special music and then we nurse, rock, then he gets swaddled all while using cue words and then he starts the night in a pack n' play next to the bed. He usually sleeps one 5 hour stretch at the beginning and then comes into our bed around 1am for the rest of the night so I can nurse him.

I haven't done sleep logs yet. I'm just feeling out some of the techniques still but I really should get on those. I'm thinking about the lovey idea and I'd like to try that. Has anyone had this work really well for them?

Napping was going good. I could put him down drowsy for those too, but now I can't. I think he hit a growth spurt and everything changed. Now after 15 minutes or so he wants to be held for the rest of his nap. I will wear him around in the moby some but he doesn't want me to sit still for too long in that so I'm not sure what to do. Maybe I shoudl read the NCNS.


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## Cartesia

Update -

OK SHOCKING NEWS -

My LO is now taking his second nap of the day WITHOUT ME BOUNCING ON A GYM BALL THE ENTIRE TIME!!!!!!

After about 3 weeks of very very consistent NCSS technique for night-time we had a night-time breakthrough (PPO while not totally asleep, finishing falling asleep with me patting his back). He has done the new night-time thing every night this week. Today I tried it during the day for the first time and it worked!!!! I didn't even nurse him first - I put him down WIDE AWAKE, patted his back, jiggled the mattress a bit and he fell asleep. Twice. Count 'em.

WOW.

This is a babe who would wake up if I stopped bouncing or walking for even a few minutes.

WOW.


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## Zimbah

Great news Cartesia! And MLA sounds like you're doing really well too. Cartesia's post has made me feel hopeful that NCSS will follow through for naps as well. Naps aren't as hard as yours (I don't have to bounce DD to sleep!) but if I could get her to sleep without nursing that would be fantastic as sometimes she needs to sleep but she's actually full, and if I let her eat more she will fall asleep but then is quite likely to be sick later.

Nights are still going well though. DD is also doing the pushing up on her arms thing. She's currently asleep in the cot for the first time in ages! It took 45 minutes of her rolling around in the cot, grabbing things, smiling (while I tried desperately not to smile at her gorgeous face), and endless, endless pushups, but eventually she felt right to sleep on her own with no crying at all - amazing.


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## Cartesia

Zimbah, I am curious about trying to let me LO settle by himself when he is happy and playing in his crib - sounds like that's what you did.

I tried it today by doing our usual nap routine & then letting him kinda gurgle and play by himself in the crib but then he started crying so I bounced him. I guess my concern is that if I let him try to settle he will be so busy entertaining himself that he will miss his sleep window.

Any thoughts about this?


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## boatrat

Hi everyone! I'm so glad to see that this thread is still being used and that some of you ladies are finding success. That is great.

I haven't posted in a long time, but here's where are:

naps: we cut down to one nap a day at 13 months and he is doing much better. That second nap was such a battle before! He still often wakes up 45 minutes into the nap, but I can usually soothe/nurse him so that he goes back to sleep. He seems to be napping just fine in daycare (4 days/week) but I think they have to soothe him, too. Oh yeah, I still have to hold him in my arms and bounce him to get him to fall asleep, but just like 5 minutes or so.

nightime: we have been nightweaning for the past two weeks. I have been sleeping in the guest room, while my wonderful wonderful DH sleeps with our DS. The first few nights were rough for both of them, but now DS is sleeping long stretches, and is able to put himself back to sleep! I usually come down around 4 or 5 AM and nurse him and then we all sleep until 6:30 or 7 (usually, although this morning he was UP at 5:30). I'm not sure how this is going to work once I'm back in the bed all night, but hopefully I can be strong.

Also, for the last two nights DS put himself to sleep at night with no bouncing! After I nursed him in our bed, he rolled around, whined just a bit and went to sleep! I'm so happy for my DS that he is finally learning how to sleep.


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## Cartesia

That's really great.

We are also continuing to successfully nap & fall asleep at night with about 5 minutes of mattress jiggle and low OMing. It's been 2 1/2 weeks now!

I haven 't seen any change in the number of night wakings but that is also probably due to distracted day time nursing, teething, rolling & trying to crawl!

Right now, my plan is to continue gently helping my LO learn to fall asleep on his own without trying to change the amount that he nurses at night. I figure things are changing so fast for him and there are so many possible reasons for waking, the best thing I can do is just concentrate on how he falls asleep the first time at night and not loose sleep the rest of the night trying to help him resettle without nursing.

Do you all think that makes sense, or do you think it would be better to invest several weeks in helping him resettle without nursing for some of his night wakings, when possible?


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## boatrat

Quote:

Do you all think that makes sense, or do you think it would be better to invest several weeks in helping him resettle without nursing for some of his night wakings, when possible?
Hi Cartesia, it is just so difficult to know what to advise you to do. I did see some improvement in number of night wakings with the gentle NCSS changes, but the improvements would come and go with teething, milestones, etc.

I remember that the week before Austin started crawling we got NO sleep but on the night after his first successful day of crawling he slept like a champ.

I guess I'd recommend just keep on keeping on with the gentle methods, and I bet that as soon as he starts to crawl you'll get a bit more rest (until he starts learning to walk .


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## MLA

Boatrat -- Congratulations on your success!

I have a question. Has anyone used the 6 phases outlined starting on page 148 with a co-sleeping baby? They're supposed to be for babies who sleep in a crib, but I'm wondering if they can be tailored to a co-sleeping baby. DS is now sleeping in a sidecarred crib (we just did this over the weekend, and already I feel things are improving). Thoughts?


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## MsZelda

My dd is 7 mos old and I have been doing the PPO for about 4 months and it seems to be worse than ever! Lately, trying to break the latch before she is in a deep sleep results in so much upset I have to start the whole process over again and have literally a 45 minute nurse before bed (which is really just the first interval of sleep in a night with 5-8 wake ups) and I cannot get her off at all for her naps. Her nipple addiction seems stronger than ever - like she needs to have the periodic sucking to stay asleep or she just tosses and turns until she wakes up fully. I can sometimes sleep a bit with her nursing but not very well or very deeply. I am so damn tired!
Any ideas on how to break the nurse-to-sleep and nurse-to-stay-asleep cycle or how to get the PPO to work.
btw we co-sleep.
thanks


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## Cartesia

MLA - we have a sidecar crib too (love it) & I drag him back and forth on a quilt for nursing & then to stay in the bed in the early morning. I am starting to think about the 6 phases thing, but I guess I'm only focusing on the first falling asleep of the night. So, I guess we are in phase 2? He nurses and then while he is still awake I put him in the crib and pat/shush till he falls asleep. This took a long time to get to, BTW....









I can't really picture how this would work for night wakings because when he nurses at night he never really wakes up - that's the beauty of it. So, in order to help him learn to wake up less in the long run, should I be waking him AFTER he nurses and then resettling him without nursing??? Confused. What do you think? And how are you doing with the phases?

Kellymama- So, after you do the PPO does your LO want the nipple back right away or is more that she is half-asleep and then freaks out several minutes later when she realizes its gone? My LO has gone through both. He is 2 months younger than yours, though, so things might change with age but here is what worked for us: when he wanted it back right away I gave it to him immediately, before he got too upset, but then I did the next PPO within 60 seconds. This means that we would do 10-15 PPO's before he would sleep. If he started to freak out I would bag the whole thing and do the 45 minute nurse.
After getting the right timing and persistence with that, he then started accepting the PPO and trying to go to sleep off the nipple. What I found out is that if he was already TOO asleep from nursing it was harder, or if he wasn't sleepy enough. Also, after the PPO I would immediately sit up and start patting/shushing.
Even though he now goes to sleep consistently with the pat/shush instead of nursing, if he actually falls asleep nursing he still freaks out if I pull him off before he is in deep sleep.
It kind of seems like falling asleep is a groove and once he gets into it in one method it really disturbs him to switch. So for us it was a little counter-intuitive and catching him more awake made it easier for the PPO.

Keep us posted. I am obsessed with this thread


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## MLA

kelleymama -- I've had that problem w/my DS (also 7 months old). It's worse when he's teething and he's learning to crawl right now, which also makes that first falling asleep difficult. So I've backed off on it for the past couple of weeks. I do the pull off in the middle of the night, but stopped doing it when first putting him to sleep because he'd go crazy and it would take another 30 minutes to an hour to get him settled again. Instead, I'd pop him off when he was actually asleep or just about there. Now he's back to popping off on his own. So my suggestion, based on my experience, is to back off on the technique for that first part of the night. The frustration of dealing w/the protesting certainly won't help you.

Cartesia -- I haven't started the phases. I'm thinking of doing them for the first falling asleep but not for the middle of the night wakings since he doesn't fully wake up in the middle of the night. I'm just wondering if getting the first falling asleep to be more independent would help with the night wakings.


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## Loralz

Kelleymama, I so feel your pain. LO is 7.5 months and the weeks that she has a tooth about to pop are the worst. It does get better after tooth comes through. Until the next one comes along. Gah.


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## MsZelda

thanks so much for your thoughts - I think I see a pattern here since DD is also on the verge of crawling and seems to be in a constant teething crisis. I also agree that timing seems to be key - I will experiment a bit more with that. I will keep you posted as I modify my PPO technique!
thanks again,
k


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## Enudely

I wish I had time to read this whole thread but I'll post my situation:
I had a VERY bad sleep situation with dd, who is now three and still waking up several times a night. I don't want to repeat this with ds, now 2.5 months old, so I have him in a side-carred crib instead of my bed, and I'm wanting to try out the NCSS.
Anyone else struggling to do this with kid # 2? It considerably complicates it. For example, I can't spend 45 minutes in the bedroom at nap time attempting to get him to go to sleep without my nipple in his mouth or while he is still awake. Chances are, just as he is finally drifting off, dd will yell "moooooom!" and wake him up.
I can't put her in front of a video 3 times a day either.
So that's out. I also can't put him down while he's still sort of awake. It doesn't work at all! He wakes up every. single. time. Patting or rubbing does nothing.
so that's out too.
The main thing that's been helping me is recognizing "sleep sounds". I realized I was actually waking him up! And I'm trying to pull my nipple out of his mouth sooner rather than later at night.
That's about it at this point though. He is actually sleeping pretty well most nights, and often only wakes at 12:30, 3:30 and 5:30, so I shouldn't complain. I just REALLY want this kid to be able to sleep. I can't handle three more years of sleep deprivation!


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## pilgrim_m

Hi - I actually waded through the entire string, taking a couple of weeks! I nearly abandoned hope around page 15 as it seemed that no one was making progress, so I am glad that I got through to see that for some there has been some realized positive effect. Small & slow, but there.

So, I hope that this forum is still active - there has not been a posting for a bit









So - we have been trying NCSS since our now 8 mo old DS was about 4 mo old. After working up to waking only 1x/night at 3 mo, he had shots, got sick, and basically fell into what it seems many 4 mo olds do - sleep issues. He wakes up every 30-60 minutes from when we put him down (sleepy, with paci) at 8, until about 12 or 1, then at 3, 4 (breastfeeds then), and sometimes after. Up for the day around 6, with 2 naps (around 9 for 30 min, around 12 for 1.5 hr - if we are lucky, another later cat nap).

So, he has always been light on the total sleep hours, being colicky when younger. I know the above scenario does not sound bad compared to some (especially as DH goes in for most of the wakings), but we just can't figure why he is waking up so much, so often!
- we try PPO, for months now... admittedly, like others, maybe he is more asleep than he should be sometimes, but we try
- we almost always put him down sleepy
- we have a solid bedtime routine (nurse, change/potty (we are also doing EC), nurse on other side, good night to rooms, book, rock/sing, into crib (separate room), shush/pat, PPO, shush/pat ---> sleep?

Most of the time when he wakes, he only needs his paci, and maybe some shsh/patting, or to get turned to the other side (he can, he just does not aluways do it himself). If it is after 3am and he is not satisfied with this, DH decided that he needs to be fed. Sometimes we make it until 4:30, but not often.

He is not yet crawling, but trying wicked hard. He also cut a tooth about 2 weeks ago. I am sure that both did not help.

So here is where the further downhill comes into play... For bedtime, he will be getting very sleepy, then he wakes himself up and REALLY wants to play. We discourage him, and encourage sleep, sometimes picking him up again (sometimes a few times). This seems to be getting worse and worse - both at the beginning of the night, and also now more than just that 1 [feeding] time at night. If we leave him be, he will NOT sleep, and will progressively turn from playful to peeved.

We have tried to put him to bed earlier - this just seems to result in him having a bright-eyed wake up around 2-3 then not sleeping well until 5, then up. Admittedly, we have not done the early bedtime more than, say, 3 nights in a row as the only reason we did so was because he seemed tired earlier. For a while there though, he would be gone within 5 min of 8pm, regardless of when we got him into the crib. Now he is pushing back and refusing to sleep until 8:30 at the earliest.

I had been told that around 8 months children start to actively resist sleep. I had thought I knew what that was about. I was wrong.

Any thoughts? We really do need some support in this. It is now 9, and I need to go to bed otherwise I will be dead on my feet for work tomorrow (oh yeah, and I am back to work 4 days).

Thanks!!!
M


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## Zimbah

Hi Pilgrim I haven't got anything constructive to offer you but wanted to give some







. Sleep issues are awful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pilgrim_m* 

So here is where the further downhill comes into play... For bedtime, he will be getting very sleepy, then he wakes himself up and REALLY wants to play. We discourage him, and encourage sleep, sometimes picking him up again (sometimes a few times). This seems to be getting worse and worse - both at the beginning of the night, and also now more than just that 1 [feeding] time at night. If we leave him be, he will NOT sleep, and will progressively turn from playful to peeved.


DD does this sometimes too. What I do is put her back in the cot or on the bed with me and leave her to crawl/roll around, chew her toy, but essentially I ignore her - if it's for a nap I might read a book, if it's the middle of the night I close my eyes and wish she would hurry up







. I do have to be in the room with her or she gets too upset, but basically I ignore her until she starts crying - not just whingeing but properly crying - then I feed her again and reattempt PPO and transfer to cot. I know it sounds a bit mean to wait until she cries but there's no point me trying to feed her before then as she's only interested in playing, and that's not something I'm going to encourage in the middle of the night.

I don't know if thats any help to you or not (at least for that issue) but I hope things improve soon. I finally seem to be seeing some improvement with my 7.5 mo, at least for the past week anyway.


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## Surfacing

subbing - we need to make some adjustments over here but I don't have the time to re-read my NCSS yet so I'm just here to lurk


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## Baby_Cakes

I'm back in the game as of today. I brought my copy to work today b/c I'm running on fumes and caffiene. I'm going to need all the support I can get.

I swear, sometimes I'm up rocking this baby at 3 am thinking I'm the only mama in the world who has a baby who won't sleep at 8.5 months old!

According to this book, I'm not supposed to be picking her up at night when she wakes, and I always do. So that's what I'm going to work on this week. I'm going to go in, pat, shush, sing, do whatever I can to not pick her up and see if she EVER goes to sleep at all. I personally don't think it's going to work but I've honestly never tried, so here goes nothing, I suppose.

The one thing I have come to realize is that even though it's the no-cry sleep solution, it doesn't mean she won't cry. It just means that I'm not leaving her to cry it out. So I have to be ok w/some tears and I don't know how to deal w/that.

It's just sad b/c she wakes up in the morning yawning and I'm usually crying. It's not a happy situation and I feel like we can't go anywhere but up from here. She's obviously suffering, too, and it's my job to make sure she gets some rest -- as well as make sure *I* do too.


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## pilgrim_m

Zimbah,
Thanks for the support! In the early night if DS wakes and I *cannot* do PPO without completely waking him, I too usually hang out in a chair in the room until he settles again (because I woke him with my PPO persistence). I am always on the fence as to whether to wait until he cries to help soothe him, or to soothe him after a bit of his "play" - I decided that it does not hurt to insert some soothing into this infuriating "play" time of his in lengthening intervals (kinda like Ferber, but preceding the crying (hopefully) and with me still in the room in a chair). In fact, I have not yet been able to move the chair further from the crib (yes, we know who is boss...).

Tonight we had a small success - after putting him down & him waking up 20 min later, and me trying to do PPO 1, 2, 3, 4 times (completely awake, playing with the crib slats now), I decided to wait it out. I sat in the chair next to crib and feigned sleep. He slowly dropped off (4 minutes) and I snagged the paci out, at which point he rolled away from me and was contentedly asleep! While I have had some successful PPOs before, I had not yet had him do the turn onto the other side thing - so that was rather cool.

We are now 20 minutes post the cool PPO - wish us luck for the night!

(last night we logged - After getting him to sleep at 8PM, we had 6 wake ups through 12:30, which was a more active waking, then another active one at 3:50, then feeding at 5:20 and, yes, I swaddled my 8mo DS so that he would sleep an additional 45 min from 5:45 - 6:30)

M


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## Baby_Cakes

Oh boy, ladies, am I going to need this thread.

Last night we did our first night waking log along w/implementing Phase One, and it really didn't go well. I actually have never heard my daughter cry so hard in her entire life. I tried putting her down after only a bit of rocking (trying to vary the length like the book says) and she wanted absolutely none of that. I was afraid she was going to throw up b/c she was crying so hard, coughing, etc. So, of course, every time she freaked out I picked her up, sang, rocked, soothed until she was just about asleep -- and did this 4 times. I finally aborted the mission b/c I was getting really upset, and nursed her back to sleep. She went into the crib and slept for an hour, and then it started all over again.

I decided to stop at midnight. I brought her to my bed where she slept for 4hr 33 min straight. Woke, nursed, went back to sleep for another 2hr 20 min.

This is really hard. But honestly, in the past few months, she has NEVER slept for more than 2 hours at a time. So maybe this is a tiny bit of success? I'll know more in 10 days. Wish me luck and tougher skin.


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## flower16

I do have a suggestion, I read, (and I am not even going to say where on this forum because they will have the dogs after me) that although there are all of those moms whose babies sleep 12 hours a night out there, that actually the average for 6 months to a year is closer to 9.5. And that this creates the "too long in bed problem" which either can cause early rising or extended periods of awake time in the middle of the night.This contadicts everyone else's advice about an early bedtime for all babies. What you do is start adding up, on a good night, how many hours your LO sleeps total form bedtime to morning no matter how short the increments. Then figure out the ideal time you want tour baby to wake. Let's say that is 6, and your baby averages 10 hours a night. Well then the appropriate bedtime would be 8 PM. Now what you do is slowly move the bedtime each night in 15 minute increments, until you reach the bedtime. It is pretty hard, I am trying it right now and my LO gets very tired because she goes down like a charm at 7. HOwever, they will not start to compesate by sleeping better at night, or later in the morning, or both for about a week, so don't expect immediate results. I am only on night two, but I figure it is worth a try, it involves no crying, and at worse it doesn't work and I move her bedtime back to what it was.


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## Baby_Cakes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower16* 
I do have a suggestion, I read, (and I am not even going to say where on this forum because they will have the dogs after me) that although there are all of those moms whose babies sleep 12 hours a night out there, that actually the average for 6 months to a year is closer to 9.5. And that this creates the "too long in bed problem" which either can cause early rising or extended periods of awake time in the middle of the night.This contadicts everyone else's advice about an early bedtime for all babies. What you do is start adding up, on a good night, how many hours your LO sleeps total form bedtime to morning no matter how short the increments. Then figure out the ideal time you want tour baby to wake. Let's say that is 6, and your baby averages 10 hours a night. Well then the appropriate bedtime would be 8 PM. Now what you do is slowly move the bedtime each night in 15 minute increments, until you reach the bedtime. It is pretty hard, I am trying it right now and my LO gets very tired because she goes down like a charm at 7. HOwever, they will not start to compesate by sleeping better at night, or later in the morning, or both for about a week, so don't expect immediate results. I am only on night two, but I figure it is worth a try, it involves no crying, and at worse it doesn't work and I move her bedtime back to what it was.

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're doing, but my goal isn't even 9 hours a night. I would settle for 5. I honestly think some babies just sleep better than others, and mine doesn't sleep well at all.

And FWIW, my baby slept 7.5 hours TOTAL all night. That's what I got when I did her nightwaking log. That's awful (for her, I mean).

Our Update:

After 2 nights using Phase One, we are getting 3-4 hour stretches instead of 1-2 hour stretches. She is waking only once to nurse during the night, and going right back to sleep. She is still up around 5:30am which SUCKS.

I just really don't like how hard she's crying at night. It's in my arms, so I know it's not as "bad" as her being all alone CIO, but still. I wonder if it's harmful in its own way. Is she going to wake up despondent and glazed over one day b/c of this? Is she going to think I don't love her, or stop loving me? I worry that I'm harming her. Even though I know this is my job to do what is best for her, I just wonder if any other babies cry so hard with this method, and hate this so much?

Thoughts?


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## hrsmom

Hi- This is a long thread!! I've read some of it...!! I have a 14 month old and I just started with this last week. (I think it was last week.) The week before that, I tried night weaning. She actually was ok going back to sleep without nursing (didn't cry more than one or two whimpers) but she was SO restless all night. Better to just nurse. So far the stretches of sleep are longer (normal for us is waking 6-9 times a night, too many times!) Last night wasn't so great, hopefully tonight will be better! I tried putting her to bed around 7:30 but she's just not ready for bed until dusk. It was aggravating trying to do sleepy night night stuff and she just wasn't ready. So I just put her to bed around 8-8:30 ish.


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## Baby_Cakes

:

Sorry, I just need to vent!

If _one more person_ IRL tells me that letting DD cry is "fine" and I just have to "ignore" her I'm going to go insane. If _one more person_ tells me I have to stop picking her up when she cries for me, I'm going to tell them to hell. Seriously.

I absolutely HATE getting parenting advice from people who don't have children, or who had children in the early 80's/late 70's.

/endrant


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## hrsmom

Baby_Cakes- that would be so frustrating!!! I get hints of that from time to time, I'm with you on not wanting the advice from people who raised babies a long time ago. (Although I just heard a mother of 2 y.o. telling another mom to just let her baby cry. But we know that happens, too.) I'm glad to hear that you comfort your baby when she needs you!


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## hrsmom

Well, so much for the "Pantley Pull Off"!!! I've been doing that for about two weeks (was doing it before I read the book, based on something else I'd read.) So this morning my babe woke up and I nursed her, and I fell back asleep, so was unable to do the PPO! If I could normally fall back asleep, nightwaking wouldn't be an issue. I actually woke up thinking that my babe had slept straight from 1:00 ish to about 6:30. Then I remembered nursing and waking up realizing I'd fallen asleep. The main way I knew I'd woken up is that the fan was off! So that was actually a restful night of sleep. Just rambling here!


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## Baby_Cakes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrsmom* 
Baby_Cakes- that would be so frustrating!!! I get hints of that from time to time, I'm with you on not wanting the advice from people who raised babies a long time ago. (Although I just heard a mother of 2 y.o. telling another mom to just let her baby cry. But we know that happens, too.) I'm glad to hear that you comfort your baby when she needs you!









Thank you! I'm so sorry I had to vent, but I'm just sick of people brushing it off and saying, "She'll be fine! She won't even remember it!" like I'm making a big deal out of nothing. Here I am night after night, agonizing over this, and they blow it off like it's not a cruel and heartless way to treat a baby.

Thanks for listening!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrsmom* 
Well, so much for the "Pantley Pull Off"!!! I've been doing that for about two weeks (was doing it before I read the book, based on something else I'd read.) So this morning my babe woke up and I nursed her, and I fell back asleep, so was unable to do the PPO! If I could normally fall back asleep, nightwaking wouldn't be an issue. I actually woke up thinking that my babe had slept straight from 1:00 ish to about 6:30. Then I remembered nursing and waking up realizing I'd fallen asleep. The main way I knew I'd woken up is that the fan was off! So that was actually a restful night of sleep. Just rambling here!

I was doing the PPO before I read the book too, not realizing I was actually doing anything recommended! I would just pop her off so she wasn't making me uncomfortable!

My thing is that some nights I must nurse a lot and not realize it, but there are some nights where I notice every single waking and those are the nights that are really frustrating to me. I WOH 3 days a week, and when I get hit with a night of wakings when I have to get up early for work, I feel like a truck hit me and I float through the day on coffee. It's not healthy for me OR for DD.

Ramble away. I sure do. LOL.


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## Baby_Cakes

Since last week was a disaster (too my crying and stress for me, IMO), we have ditched the crib sleeping and have fully embraced co-sleeping. DD is sleeping a lot better! Not perfect, but better. We are doing a few things differently:

1. Bedtime was moved up from 8-9 to 7-8.
2. No more nursing in front of the TV. I take her into the bedroom, dim lights, comfy bed, and nurse her sitting up.
3. Once she's out I gently move her to the bed. Surround her w/pillows, and she's out for about an hour.

At the first wake up, I go in quietly, either rock or nurse (usually nurse) and she's out again. This is usually her longest stretch, which is typically 3-4 hours. The next waking I'm in bed w/her so we just nurse, do the PPO as best we can, and I move to the other side of the bed as far away from her as possible.

One night she slept from 9-2, I think. I don't remember nursing her in between.

Last night I swear she slept from 1-6:30. I don't remember waking to nurse her, and my boobs were pretty full when she woke me up.

How is everyone else doing?


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## Surfacing

Hey Mamas, I've been reading and following along a little bit lately. I pulled out my No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers. Dd2 had gotten into a bad habit of falling to sleep at 7:30 p.m., sleeping for 1 hour, and then waking up = party time! She crawls off the bed, goes to the door repeatedly indicating she wants out. So the last couple of times she did this, I just picked her up in the dark and rocked her. She immediately moaned and indicated she wanted the bed again. So I lay her down and nursed her to sleep. I'm trying the PPO but it doesn't always work.







: It _is_ progress though that she's sleeping longer through the night now without the extra wake up and is falling asleep earlier.

I have removed the night light from her room and I think it's making a difference. OTOH I reeeeeaaaallllly miss looking at her sweet adorable cuteness that makes me melt into a love puddle while she sleeps at night.







I miss that. Sigh. Oh well, something for something! Good luck to all.

ETA - we had fallen out of the habit of reading before bed, preferring instead to plunk the kids infront of the TV to snack while we vegged out.







: So now we're reading again.


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## LeoneLover13

Freaking shoot me ladies...I just started using some of the NCSS techniques and nothing is working, I can't even use half of them because 9 month DD won't cooperate!!
Oh she was a great sleeper as an infant, 2-3 times a night she woke to nurse, that I could handle. The second she turned 6 months (and we happened to move across the world to Guam) she began waking every 1-2 hours again to nurse. She doesn't nurse to sleep though, she eats like a fiend every freakin' hour until she is satisfied, pulls off and turns over to face her Dad. This has been going on for 3 months now, I haven't had longer than 2 hours to do anything in 3 months whether it's laundry, work or sleep. I have tried more exercise but it is hard, 1. I am exhausted and have no energy, 2. We live in Guam and it's freaking HOT and humid here a walk during the day for longer than 1/2 hr is too much, plus I don't have the car til DH gets home from work. We are very active on his days off (hiking, swimming, ocean, beach, water park etc.) But, it doesn't seem to work on the days we go out either. The PPO doesn't work because of the above reason- she already does it herself and is not comfort nursing. She takes normal naps (I have tried getting them to be at the same time, doesn't work), and overall gets enough sleep (14 hours total). I have been desperately trying to get her to bed earlier and it was working, 730-8pm was bedtime after a routine of shower with Daddy, pjs and massage with Mommy, nurse to sleep in bed. We cosleep still. She still woke every hour but at least she was in bed earlier. Now the past 2 nights nothing has worked, not rocking in a dark room, music, bath, nursing, walking in the quiet dark street, swaddling...nothing, she has stayed awake until 10pm-midnight after 2 hours of me trying to get her to sleep. She has been teething since she 3 months old, it is bad right now, all 4 top ones are coming down one-at-a-freaking-time and have been for 2 months. She barely eats any solids, she just isn't interested and now the past week she has only been pooping ONCE in a 24-hr period so she's also going through yet another growth spurt. I don't know where it all goes because she eats every 2 hrs during the day (EBF still) and every hour at night, poops once, pee's constantly and weighs maybe 17lbs at 9 months.
I am to the point of delerium, I walk around in a foggy haze most of the time and have no energy for anything. I feel like a failure because of this and I am becoming really anxious. I can't sleep anymore either, she has been down for an hour, I am exhausted but all I can do is toss and turn and think about when she will wake up next, what else I should try, how much I resent my husband for the sleep he gets...I have resentful insomnia.
I have posted a help question on EVERY BOARD throughout the World Wide Web and have tried everything everyone suggested except CIO which I will not do, you guys are my last hope!!! :-(


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## terrainthailand

Hi LeoneLover13 and anyone else who is still lurking around! Ughhh, I feel for everyone. Sleep issues really really make it hard to be the mommy you want to be huh?

I finally borrowed the book from a friend and started our journey 3 nights ago. My DD used to sleep in 3-4 hour chunks for 11 hours (though naps were rougher) but ever since we returned from a 6 week vacation in the States about a month ago (and she turned 6 mo) sleep has been tough.

On our initial log she woke hourly from 7 to midnight, slept 3 hours, slept 2 hours and then woke hourly until 6 am. She has just made the transition to 2 naps that are 1 to 1.5 hours - which sounds nice except that to get that I have to anticipate her waking up at each 30 minute mark and pick her up to get her into the next sleep cycle.

We mostly cosleep, but am taking this opportunity to make the transition to the crib. She doesn't usually nurse to sleep, but I'm doing the PPO anyway. Our real issue is that she needs me to rock/bounce her to sleep (unless we are cosleeping, then I can nurse her down in the middle of the night). So I'm trying to phase that out. I'm still on Phase 1 (rocking her bent over the crib - ouch) when I put her down initially. I am also trying to make her days more predictable.

Last night she actually woke more than usual (every FLIPPING hour), but I do think we are making progress in that often I was able to get her back to sleep with just some patting and shushing (totally unheard of before). I'm a tired and a bit frustrated, but really want to give this a real try for at least 10 days. I'm cautiously optimistic. I just keep telling myself in the middle of the night how glorious the end result might be... imagine 5 straight hours of sleep!!

also

Quote:

For bedtime, he will be getting very sleepy, then he wakes himself up and REALLY wants to play. We discourage him, and encourage sleep, sometimes picking him up again (sometimes a few times). This seems to be getting worse and worse - both at the beginning of the night, and also now more than just that 1 [feeding] time at night. If we leave him be, he will NOT sleep, and will progressively turn from playful to peeved.
This is totally us!! Soooo frustrating. I agree, let 'em play it out, then try again when they start to fuss.


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## terrainthailand

Is it just me?









Well, we're about 5 nights in now. I don't really see any improvement on the number of wake ups or the amount of sleep. BUT, she does seem to be going to sleep a little bit better on her own. By that I mean, when I put her down, she wakes up a little bit and then goes back to sleep with some shushing. Man I hope that's progress. I'm feeling a little defeated right now, but am determined to last at least the first 10 days.

I told someone from playgroup that DD was waking hourly and she looked at me like I had two heads. Then I talked to my neighbor (whose baby is a month younger than mine). I know she's been down about her lack of sleep so I though we could commiserate. Her baby is waking hourly.... STARTING AT 4AM!! What?! He sleeps from 8pm to 4am??? I would freakin KILL for that! Ughh. Then I am looking at this book that my playgroup buddy gave me. Written by some lady who helped out Gwenyth Paltrow with her baby (what more assurance could I need) and of course, her only suggestion is to let her "shout" it out. Is that supposed to sound better than CIO? Ughh.. She also had the ultra helpful information that if a baby is still frequently waking by 6 months of age it is extremely difficult to change the pattern.







: Thanks.


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## LeoneLover13

Hi there terrainthailand!

I will join in and update, I haven't because so far nothing has changed :-(
I believe we are on day 7 or something, but we hit a huge roadblock, being that she is teething and growing like nothing i've ever seen (or heard from her) before! One of her front teeth and one of the 'fangs' came through yesterday, the other are slowly on their way down also. She is having a hell of a time with them, whining, crying, chewing and biting ALL...DAY....LONG, it's incredibly draining. I have never seen her cry so much in her short little life. She is also going through a growth spurt, and now nursing EVERY HOUR around the clock, day and night and pooping ONCE in each 24hr period....also exhausting. So, basically I have given up trying anything right now. I don't know how often she is waking because I can't wake myself enough to look at the clock! But I know it's a lot. We have started a consistent routine however, that seems to work most nights. She goes down between 730-8pm now, which is good, but she is waking earlier in the morning (8am instead of 9). It is hard to do anything when DH gets home though and he doesn't get much time with her, but hopefully it is all worth it!
I try not to talk to my friends about her nightwaking, if I do I just tell them in passing and they ask how it's going. I am pretty much the only one with a baby waking in the night, one friend has a 2 month old who she has been sleep/feed training since birth, I can't stand to hear about it.
Thank goodness for places like this where there are other Mom's who 'get it' and put their babies needs first!!


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## littlebabydoll

I've learned doing the OPPOSITE of this book works wonders.







My LO sttn at 2-3 months with LOTS of boob. I tried the PPO for a few months once the 4mo sleep regression cam and 5 night waking. I stopped and now only 3. Boob makes him happy! I want to make him happy! I think boob is a huge stress reliever at the end of the day making for a more relaxing way to drift off into sleep. Can I go sell a million dollar book now on the topic?


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## mamasplash

My little one is now 7 and a half months old. She wakes every hour from 8:30pm to 5am and then every 20 minutes until 7am....I'm exhausted. I think her problem is that she doesn't know how to put herself back to sleep when she wakes up in the night. I try to wait to see if she'll go back to sleep herself, but so far no luck. She only very recently started taking daytime naps by herself...wow, it felt great to have 30 minutes to myself! Woohoo!

I bought the NCSS not too long ago and am trying it out now. Just started. I like the idea of the Pantley pull off...here's hoping for some success.

Anyways, I don't have any advice for anyone yet, but just wanted to let you know that there is yet another person out there going through this....it will get better, I know it will...


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## terrainthailand

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlebabydoll* 
I've learned doing the OPPOSITE of this book works wonders.







My LO sttn at 2-3 months with LOTS of boob. I tried the PPO for a few months once the 4mo sleep regression cam and 5 night waking. I stopped and now only 3. Boob makes him happy! I want to make him happy! I think boob is a huge stress reliever at the end of the day making for a more relaxing way to drift off into sleep. Can I go sell a million dollar book now on the topic?

I'm glad you found something that worked for you.









This thread is for NCSS support. Thanks!!


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## LeoneLover13

Well, there has been a development...IT GOT FREAKING WORSE!!







:

Her right front incisor and the little fang next to it came through, through bleeding gums and being up all night. Now we are waiting for the left incisor and fang to come through, her gum is swollen and about to poke through but she is having a hell of a time, I've been having to give her Motrin almost every night so she can sleep and I hate that. I have even considered brandy on the gums to see if that will help her, but I haven't. Teething tablets don't work, I don't want to use the gels and it seems like it's a more low grade, all over pain not specifically in her teeth.

Last night was ridiculous, I didn't count or log anything because it was far too much but I am pretty sure after the early morning she started waking and wanting to nurse every 30 flipping minutes. I am supposed to do a log tonight (my 2nd 10 day log) but I am cringing at the idea of having to actually wake up every 30 minutes.









Wish me luck ladies....


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## terrainthailand

Ugggh.. I'm so sorry. Good luck with your log. Wish we could support each other IRL over a big steaming pot of coffee









It may sound crazy, but I am envious that you've got teeth coming through at least. I've been thinking DD was teething for a few weeks now but I don't see any swelling, or bumps or anything...









We're doing okay here. Our first 10 day log is in a couple of days. I totally gave up on trying to get her to sleep in the crib, but am continuing with all of our other sleep plan elements. I'm trying not to look at it as a failure. I mean, the only reason I really tried to get her in the crib was because I thought it might help her sleep better - obviously it didn't. So no problem going back to co-sleeping. I think DH is a wee bit disappointed, so maybe that is contributing to my down feeling. I'm not keep track of wake ups until I do the log, but I think there was a nice long stretch last night.







: Our biggest success continues to be that I can transfer her to the crib or bed in a nearly asleep state and then kinda bounce or pat her completely to sleep. I can't really imagine taking it to the next level though (laying her down drowsy). If I set her down too soon she just springs to life.


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## merryns.mom

i've been reading all the posts; and here's my question

my 12 mo wakes every 1hr to 2 hrs all thru the night and sometimes is up for an hour playing. i can nurse her back down in bed, but she still wakes up; and keeps me up with her tossing and turning. i'm at my wits end:yawning:

what do you do when you lay them back down in the crib or bed and they pop back up and cry/reach out for your. it's easy to sush an infant, but now that she's old enough to crawl up the crib/wall, what now?

any ladies that have had success with ncss? is there hope? all of our friends cry it out and their little ones sttn


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## LeoneLover13

Hi merryns.mom

There are a number of successful NCSS posts in here somewhere, I haven't read them, but they are there! LOL. All my friends CIO also and have done it whilst I was there, I couldn't ever do it, they seem so detatched from their babies cries now. One recently had a terrible ear infection and virus and was having trouble sleeping. Mom was really upset because she couldn't get her to sleep, she won't fall asleep on Mom or Dad anymore, the only way she associates sleep now is crying in her crib. So Mom had to leave her to cry in her crib so she would eventually fall asleep, and couldn't comfort her poor sick baby. I was very saddened by the situation and it made me more adament that I will never do that. Out of both the Mom's I know who CIO, neither of their babies will cuddle, hug, or sleep on their parents anymore since they were 6 months old (the age they started CIO). I don't want that to happen to my DD, I like my affectionate little girl









Now I've got that off my chest  Is she waking to actually eat or just to comfort nurse? How does she nap? I know one is a little too old to swaddle, but have you thought about using a weighted blanket? Someone recommended one to me, I haven't got one yet but I think it is a good idea, it's seems like it's the equivilent of swaddling for older babies/toddlers/children. There is a lot of research on it and it makes sense. Here is a link:
http://www.sensory-processing-disord...-blankets.html

This link is more specifically for SPD, i'm not saying she has it but it has good info.


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## merryns.mom

my lo hates to nap; at preschool she cries when she sees the bottles come out because she knows she's supposed to take a nap after









on the weekends, i can get her to take a 2 hr nap at 10is and an afternoon nap

but she doesn't like to go to sleep at night-takes me awhile of nursing and rocking to get her down-she's sleepy, but too nosy to go to sleep - keeps herself up to talk and play

i think she's comfort nursing

at night: should i let her fuss for a few minutes and then get her from the crib? my fear is that she'll wake up fully and i wont be able to get her back down


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## boatrat

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to see this thread is still going, although I'm sad to see all of the sleep-deprived mommas. Hopefully we can all get some good advice here.

It's been awhile since I posted, but we're in a better place now than when we started. A big improvement for us has been bedtime. I now nurse DS (17 months old) before bed, then brush teeth, then read books, then bed. He is sleeping now on his crib mattress between our bed and the wall. The basic process is that he tries to avoid going to sleep. I sit by him and just gently remind him that he is tired and needs to listen to his body and go night night. When he stands up, I gently lie him back down. Since I'm not nursing him (and he's not biting me, which was a huge problem for us) I'm able to stay calm and loving. After about 30 minutes to an hour of this, he goes to sleep. This is much better for him that me having to bounce him to sleep, or have a marathon nursing session.

I was still having problems with the night-time feedings and wakings so right now we're trying nightweaning again. i'm sleeping upstairs and DH is handling the nighttime parenting. So far it hasn't been that bad. We tried before at around 15 months and it was terrible, but he seems to be accepting comfort from his dad much better now.

Quote:

at night: should i let her fuss for a few minutes and then get her from the crib? my fear is that she'll wake up fully and i wont be able to get her back down
Merryns.mom, it's always hard to know how to balance letting them fuss a bit versus waking up fully. Right now DH is letting DS fuss a bit in his own bed, but if he really starts to wake up and cry DH is putting him in our bed and trying to comfort him. Sorry, I don't really have any concrete advice. Good luck!


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## terrainthailand

Merryns.mom - mine is only 7 months, so I'm not sure how applicable it is, but I try to get her at the first fussing because if she really wakes up it is soooo hard to get her back down. Now an isolated whimper or shout, I will watch and wait, sometimes she does that in her sleep.

Well, I was feeling pretty good about our progress in the first 10 days, until I did the night waking log. Ughhh. It seems worse than when we started. I think there really is progress though. For one thing, I feel a bit more rested. For another, crib transfers have become really really easy (still haven't put her down drowsy though) and I have been able to comfort her back to sleep in the middle of the night without nursing (in our bed only). Here is what the first night looked like:

7:25 - alseep after 10 minutes nursing, 25 minutes bouncing & 2 unsuccessful cirb transfers
7:55 - awake, nurse 10 min
9:00 - awake, nurse 10 min
9:20 - awake, take to bed and cuddle 5 min
10:20 - awake, nurse 5 min and cuddle 5 min
1:45 - awake, nurse 10 min
4:10 - awake, nurse 5 min and cuddle 5 min
5:10 - awake, nurse 5 min
6:20 - awake for the day

wake ups: 7, longest stretch: 3.25 hours, total night time sleep: 10 hours, total sleep including naps: 12 hours (aiming for 14-15)

Here is what last night looked like:

8:15 - asleep in our bed after 20 minutes of nursing and 20 minutes of cuddling/rolling back and forth
10:00 - awake, nurse 10 min, roll over and pat to sleep 5 min
12:00 - awake, quick nurse and then cuddle to sleep
2:00 - awake, cuddle to sleep 30 min
4:00 - awake, quick nurse
5:30 - awake for the day

wake ups: 5, longest stretch: 1.75 hours, total night time sleep: 8.25 hours, total sleep including naps: 11.5 hours (aiming for 14-15)

So yuck. Some improvements, but nothing on the overall amount of sleep OR the longest stretch. What seems to be working: PPO, Phase 1 of getting her to fall asleep out of my arms (with shusshing and patting), routine. What seems to be the problem: definitely our day time routine. We just can't decide whether to do 2 naps a day or 3 - and every day is different. She's always tired within a couple of hours of waking so takes a nap around 8. Her next one is around 12:30 or 1 and then it is really really hard to make it until bedtime. If we do a little catnap, she goes to sleep much later and, as you can see, it doesn't translate into a later wake up time. So we're going to keep on trucking. I think I am going to try pushing that morning nap back another hour, then hopefully I can do the same with the afternoon nap and maybe we can make it to bedtime in better spirits. Wish us luck. Feel free to offer any insights of your own!!!


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## LeoneLover13

terrainthailand- Sounds like you are getting a little bit of somewhere, it does say it is a very slow process! As for the naps, I know how you feel. Jade is down to 2 naps a day as of 8 months, I would say your LO is probably slowly going down to 2 naps instead of 3 but it can be a hard transition. I would definitely do what you said, try to push the morning nap back an hour, so everything else is pushed back. Jade takes her first an hour and 1/2 after she wakes up so usually 10am, for two hours and then USUALLY goes down between 2-3pm for her second one for an hour. If she goes down any later than 3:30pm, i'm screwed for the night. So as hard as she fights her second nap, I try really hard to get her down so she'll go to bed at the same time every night.
I think everything you are doing is going great, keep up the good work, I think soon you will start to notice results.


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## terrainthailand

Thanks LeoneLover13! How is it going for you guys? Have you gotten a break from teething troubles yet?

We did successfully push naps back yesterday, she took a 2 hour nap in the morning - wow - unheard of. Of course, I was holder her for half of that, but who cares?! Unfortunately, bedtime took longer than I had hoped because we started the routine late. So she went down late, and then woke up early. Gotta be more disciplined!


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## LeoneLover13

That's great about the naps! I really think it will work out for you, that's exactly what Jade went through at that age, she slowly started pushing her naps later so she would only take 2 a day, I had to help her though.

No break from teething at all, it got worse...I didn't think that was possible! She has been basically inconsolable for two days now, she buries her head in the couch and flails around whining, crying and biting, all day. I've given her motrin everyday now and I hate it! I hate giving her so much but even that barely helps her, I feel terrible I don't know how else to help her. I STILL haven't done my second log yet, I just can't bring myself to do it knowing that i'll have to actually wake up almost every 30 mins. For now, we're just going to try and ride out this teething storm and hope she settles a little. :-(


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## terrainthailand

We've been continuing with the NCSS techniques for about 5 weeks now and I finally got around to doing a third '10 day' log. Last night looked like this:

6:25 - asleep in crib, DD was super tired so we shortened our bedtime routine, skipping the bath and stories, nursed for 10 minutes, put down in crib just barely asleep and did butt pat and ssshushing to sleep.
7:05 - awake, screaming - I think because she didn't nurse long enough before and was still hungry - nursed her to sleep in about 5 minutes, set down, and then dropped my mp3 player and woke her up







:
7:20 - had trouble transferring her to crib after the wakeup so cuddled with her on the bed in her room and left her there.
8:20 - caught waking, whimpering - asleep after a 5 minute cuddle
**at 9:15 I took her to our bed and did a 10 minute dream feed**
11:15 - caught waking, whimpering - nursed/cuddled
3:15 - caught waking, thrashing around - quick nurse back to sleep
5:05 - awake, whining
5:20 - asleep after long nurse
6:10 - up for the day

wake ups: 5, longest stretch: 4 hours, total night time sleep: 11.5 hours, total sleep including naps: 13.75 hours (aiming for 14-15)

There has definitely been some improvement, and it is nice to see it all spelled out like that. Not the miracle change that I was hoping for, but a definite improvement. One of the things that is nagging at me is that I'm not sure if the improvement is due to the NCSS techniques or just her getting older. Maybe because the techniques have so become a part of our routine that I hardly notice I'm doing them? Anyway, I'm definitely in a less desperate place these days. AND, DD finally has had a tooth bust though the gums







:. It isn't completely out yet, but it has broken the surface. Funny, I have blamed sleeping problems on teething for like 3 months and the week the tooth finally broke through - she seemed no fussier than usual.









I am trying to just be happy with what we've accomplished but IRL people seem to have such crazy expectations for how baby sleep! It makes me feel like such a loser. All three of the moms I know IRL with babies about DD's age sleep at least 6 hours a night... one of them sleeps 10 hours straight, in a crib, no wake ups. I try not to talk about sleep too much because I can't bear the look of horror on people's faces when I tell them DD wakes up more than 3 times a night. Ugghh, why is it only here that people understand that this is normal and it isn't my fault!!!


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## LeoneLover13

So I pretty much gave up NCSS the past month when her teething got to be unbearable.









She went through a week of having to be attached all night long or she would scream in pain, so I just let things go how she needed and the two offending teeth have popped through. But, I am pretty sure she is constantly in 'bothersome' pain







because at night I have been having to stand up and walk with her until she falls asleep again and there is A LOT of movement, whining, whimpering and fussing during the night.

However, she has now started to want to comfort nurse a lot more during the night and I can tell it's only comfort nursing now, she doesn't need to eat. I will do a log tonight (if I can keep myself awake!) and start NCSS again because I don't want her getting used to that. I have already started trying the PPO which has worked a few times but I am not sure how to figure out whether she is hungry (which I know she is sometimes, she is still EBF at 10 months) or just wanting comfort.

I am hopeful that it will be better than the first log, anything will be better than that!









terrain: I know how you feel with the other Mom's. I know two other Mom's here who are opposite to my parenting style and they have had their babies trained since 6 months old to STTN. They are both currently going through rough phases and are having to CIO with their babies every single night. Sometimes I doubt myself and wonder if they have it right and I am totally wrong because I am exhausted, and not making any progress but just hearing their stories makes me sad and I don't want to put my baby through that. I never bring it up with other people either, people have completely freaked out when I told them she was waking up 9-10 times a night! LOL









Keep it up Mama, sounds like you are making the slooooow progress Pantley so often tells us about!


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## terrainthailand

Good luck with your log and







, it sounds like teething has been really rough for your LO. If you need to commiserate.. I think I will be here (in the same boat that is) for at least a few more months


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## LeoneLover13

So I did my log...and I wish I hadn't, it was so much worse than I thought it would be. It looks like this...

8/6/09
10 months old

930pm Asleep nursing. We had friends over so it wasn't our usual schedule.
10pm Awake crying. We nurse 5 mins, she is still up rolling all over the bed whimpering. I walk and bounce for 30 mins and put her back in bed with Daddy.
1150 Woke flailing, rooting. Nurse 20 mins.
110 Woke flailing, rooting, crying. Nurse 15 mins, tried PPO 3/4 times, asleep after 10 mins.
335 Woke up completely after shushing to sleep failed. Nurse 8 mins, she pulled off herself.
445 Woke thrashing, rooting. Nurse 15 mins, she pulled off herself.
600 Woke rooting, fussing. Nurse 15 mins, PPO first time.
730 Woke fussing, rooting. Nurse 15 mins, PPO 3 times.
930 Woke up for the day whimpering, fussing.

Total awakenings- 7
Longest sleep span- 2hrs 30 mins
Total sleep- 12 hours (plus 2 hour nap during day)= 14 hours

This is compared to when she was 8 months.......

6/26/09
8 months

745pm Asleep nursing on couch, into crib.
815 Woke crying- too hot from swaddling. Nurse 5 mins then paci.
1045 Woke whining/rooting. Nurse 10 mins.
1145 Woke whimpering/rooting. Nurse 5 mins, pulled off herself.
1255 Woke fussy, whimpering. Nurse 5 mins, pulled off herself.
215 Rooting/whimper. Nurse 3 mins, pulled off herself.
255 Woke crying. 3 mins nurse, pulled off herself.
410 Whimpering/rooting. Nurse 5 mins.
515 Rooting. Nurse 3 mins then paci.
830 Root/cry. 5 mins nurse then woke up for day.

Total awakenings- 9
Longest sleep span- 3.5 hours
Total sleep- 12 hours (plus 2 hour nap)= 14 hours

I dont think we have made much improvement


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## terrainthailand

Sorry. It is nice to see the progress in black and white, but so awful to see a bad night all written out like that. Still, I see a few kernels of progress.







She is getting the same amount of total sleep with 2 fewer awakenings. That really is something, especially in the midst of teething. Also, the PPO seems to be doing its job some of the time... I see that at 8 months she was already pulling off much of the time so it isn't necessarily an improvement, but at least you're not moving backwards. It really does seem like your LO is uncomfortable, with all the thrashing wake-ups and much longer nursing sessions. Hang in there, hopefully you will see some real improvement when the teething pain subsides.

Sorry if this is a stupid suggestion, as I am sure you have tried everything, but have you tried giving her anything for the pain and does it help? Any gas issues (just thinking about the thrashing about - mine generally does this before passing gas)? If so, have you tried gripe water before bed?

I saw your post on the thread about how wonderful it is that we love our children to sleep. It really is a beautiful sentiment. I hope you are cuddling up with your family right now and feeling at peace!


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## CHoney

I'm having trouble putting my babe to bed early. He's 10 months old and goes to bed at 11. Sometimes I can put him to bed a bit earlier, at 9:30 or 10:00, but not often.

He does get tired earlier in the night, but if I put him to bed at 7:00, he'll wake up at 9pm and stay up till 11. I keep the room dark, but he just wants to get down and play because he's had a power nap.

Any suggestions? Thanks!


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## terrainthailand

When does he generally take his naps? Mine doesn't nap all that much, 2-1 hour naps if I am lucky, 2-40 minute naps if I am unlucky. But no matter how much sleep she has had, I find that if she sleeps after 4pm I won't be able to get her to sleep well at bedtime (7).

Regarding the 9PM wakeup, in addition to keeping the room dark, not engaging in play, etc, I would also try to get to him before he wakes up and nurse, rock, shhush/butt pat (whatever you do), until he is back in a deep sleep (usually about 10 minutes). Whether naps or nighttime, if I get to my LO and her eyes are already open, I know it will be tough to get her back to sleep.

HTH!


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## LeoneLover13

Thanks terrain! That was a lovely message at the end of your reply,







.

I think she is in pain a lot of the time with her teeth. I have given her motrin before bed sometimes when she is really in pain and it helps her get to sleep but she still wakes the same amount. I worry though because I was using it so often to help her get to sleep I was scared she would become dependant on it.
She has actually been gassy the past few days because I did a test to see if she was still allergic to dairy through me. She is a little but not as bad as when she was young. So, hopefully that passes soon.

I think that night that I did the log was a really bad night because the past two I have felt like she slept much better and didn't wake as much. I don't know when teething will end, so it makes me wonder when she will sleep better too.

CHoney: Has he always done that? My DD switches up her night time all the time especially when she is having a really hard time teething. I second the question about his naps, is it just one or two?


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## heidirk

I know with my ds's a few bad nights in a row can make it almost habit for them. The other night I gave DS2 some valerian tincture before bed, and it not only helped him sleep longer stretches that night, but he napped better the followwing day, too.

I know it's only a quick fix/temporary solution, but if I;m desparate for a night's (better than average) rest, it is nice to know it works.

(I do do the NCSS, too.)


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## summer_rose

Holy cow! Where have these boards been my whole life?!







: Well...the last 10.5 months anyway?







.

I don't really know how to go about the PPO with DS and his paci. He's never really nursed to sleep except in the middle of the night, but he's very dependant on his paci. In the book it says the first falling asleep of the night is the most important for PPO. Right now DS is going down in his crib at the beginning of the night and then coming to our bed at the first waking after I've gone to sleep. As soon as I lay him down in his crib (drowsy but awake), he rolls away from me and that's how he falls asleep (with help). So my first issue is, I have a hard time reaching over to pluck it from his mouth and put my finger under his chin. Secondly, he pretty much flails the second it comes out and I stick it right back in. I think the most I've ever tried is five times and gave up. He wakes a lot during the night and I just want him to sleep so I'm hesitant to try really hard. Does it really work or should I just forget about it?? Do you think it's crucial to sleep success with NCSS??

Thanks!


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## terrainthailand

I don't have experience doing PPO with a paci. So I can't speak to that.

I also really don't know how essential it is to the NCSS. I guess, the idea behind it makes sense, if the baby always sucks to fall asleep, then it makes sense that it would be hard to fall asleep in the absence of sucking. I wonder though, is the paci working for you? Or is it a problem because you have to retrieve it for your LO throughout the night. I'm thinking if the LO can keep it in, or retrieve it on their own then that would accomplish the falling asleep/getting through the light sleep stage without my assistance and I would be okay with that.

I did want to say that for us the PPO has worked quite well. Though it takes persistence. I spent four or five very rough nights where I got up, really got up, for every waking and diligently did the PPO and then trying to set her down right away (before in deep sleep) and do the butt pat/shhhhhushhing. We haven't progressed beyond that (to putting her down drowsy). But I am in constant awe now at how easy it is to transfer her to the crib (for naps and the first part of the night) and how she finishes nursing and then rolls away to fall asleep (in the middle of the night when we bed share). The PPO was less a problem for us then the putting down thing. I sometimes had to put her down and pick her up 3 or 4 times. It was frustrating, but I did it right after reading the NCSS cover to cover and I was all pumped up on the possibilities of endless nights of peaceful sleep.









Good luck!


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## Louisep

Hey everyone,

I'm thinking of joining the thread after just reading NCSS. My dilemma is this - DS has cut 8 teeth in 8 weeks and it looks like there are two more coming through. Should I wait until I know for sure that teething isn't the culprit? He was sleeping well before the teeth came through and now I don't know if it's still the teeth or if he's out of the good sleep pattern he had fallen into and needs help to sleep well again. Some nights are as bad as it gets (waking every hour or less) and it's been a really long time since he's slept more than 3 hours solidly.

I just keep hanging onto the thread of hope that it's just teething, but am I just kidding myself?!


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## terrainthailand

I would say go ahead and get started... teething will probably go on for a while right? Teething probably has a lot to do with the waking, but the techniques should still be helpful I think. My LO is teething rather slowly - only working on the one tooth which has now been out of the gums for more than a week and still hasn't fully ascended - in fact it looks like it has barely moved!! We've been doing NCSS in the midst of that.

That said, if teething is making your LO really really needy, and you think adding NCSS to that might just frustrate you, then yah, wait for a calm week.

Just my $.02. Good luck - and congrats on all those teeth!!


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## LeoneLover13

I say go ahead and try it anyway. My DD is constantly teething and has been probably the whole time we have been trying NCSS.







: I don't think there is ever a way to know for sure they are not.

If you or baby (or both) get frustrated and/or exasperated then I would leave it alone for a few days/weeks and see if it gets any better.

I have been in a constant start, stop cycle since we started. At first it worked and she got better and now it's plumeted into oblivion.








I have no clue whats going on now,







: but in the past 2 weeks she has gone from pulling off as soon as she's done nursing and rolling over to sleep, to having to be attached to me constantly all night. But it is 1030pm here and I have tried twice, DH once and she is not going down.








She is tired, falls asleep at the breast I pull her off and walk/bounce/rock and gentle lay in bed with her, she's out. 2 seconds later, she's bouncing off the headboard playing.









So, off my tangent. Good luck Mama! We're here to help...as much as one can!


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## CHoney

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeoneLover13* 
CHoney: Has he always done that? My DD switches up her night time all the time especially when she is having a really hard time teething. I second the question about his naps, is it just one or two?

DS always wakes up if put to bed at 7. He usually has two 2 hours a day, and he does get sleepy around 3 or 4 and usually naps around then.

For the past few nights he's been going to bed at 9 which is progress! Maybe he just needed to be ready to sleep earlier?

I will try and wake up earlier consistently so DS has more rhythm to his day. Sometimes we'll sleep in until 9 or 10, so he's not tired till late in the evening.

He is teething right now, and maybe that is why he'll wake up at 5am and wants to cuddle, but won't go to back to bed till 6:30 or 7am.


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## filiadeluna

I have this book, but haven't read the whole thing. I just want to bang my head against a wall sometimes. My DD - almost 5 months old - is an _amazing, sweet, beautiful, loving baby_ when she is feeling well/not tired. However, she has always - from day 1 - been incredibly fussy at night (screaming like a BANSHEE), and often during the day as well. She was very colicky the first couple of months + has reflux. I got a small break for about two weeks, until she started teething. The teething has been going on about two months now, with no end in sight. It feels like I spend all.day.long trying to get her to nap or go to bed for the night, and it's a constant struggle.

When I least expect it, she will actually sleep quite a bit, but when I *really* need her to sleep (i.e. I'm exhausted and want to sleep myself, or I have a lot of chores to do, or just want some "me" time), she REFUSES to go to/stay asleep. We co-sleep at night, and sometimes for naps too, but unlike when she was younger, she won't always fall asleep next to me during the daytime even when she's really exhausted. Sometimes she will just scream and fuss, or look around and babble, instead of going to sleep, and I'm lying there next to her about to pass out. Ugh.

This morning I tried to nap with her, but she wouldn't sleep, so I had to put her in the swing fully awake while I passed out in the bedroom (I had the door open to make sure she didn't cry). She eventually passed out in the swing after just sitting there babbling to herself for awhile. I felt awful, but if I didn't get a nap I would have been Crabby Annoyed Resentful Mommy all day long. Tonight she didn't pass out until about 10 minutes ago.







: Sometimes she'll go to bed as early as 9:30pm, but lately she's been staying up later, and later, and LATER, but still getting up at the same time(s).









I run an in-home daycare, so I HAVE to get a fair amount of sleep or I won't be able to function taking care of the other baby I watch in addition to my own.


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## terrainthailand

Quote:

It feels like I spend all.day.long trying to get her to nap or go to bed for the night, and it's a constant struggle.








I have SOOOO been there. For me, it was around 3.5/4 months. Is the biggest problem getting her to sleep or keeping her that way? For getting them to sleep the NCSS suggests starting your nap routine at the very first sign of sleepiness. If you haven't tried this, do. But for us, it turns out it works much better for me to wait until my girl is really really tired... not crazy, screaming, exhausted tired, but good and tired. For me, at 5 months, that meant trying to keep her awake at least 3 hours between her 3 naps. Maybe starting early is better on some level, but I was spending 30 to 45 minutes trying to bounce her to sleep and it was just frustrating the heck out of me.

As for keeping them asleep - I have had some success with the NCSS nap-lengthening techniques. But it can also be frustrating when it doesn't work so I have a strict policy of _just.letting.it.go_ when I start getting upset. That means we have many days where my LO only naps for 40 minutes at a time. I would love her to sleep more, but it isn't worth feeling like crap about!

Quote:

This morning I tried to nap with her, but she wouldn't sleep, so I had to put her in the swing fully awake while I passed out in the bedroom (I had the door open to make sure she didn't cry). She eventually passed out in the swing after just sitting there babbling to herself for awhile. I felt awful, but if I didn't get a nap I would have been Crabby Annoyed Resentful Mommy all day long.
FWIW, I wouldn't feel bad about this AT ALL. She wasn't crying... sounds like she was enjoying herself in a safe place and ultimately fell asleep. Sounds perfect to me.








I'm sorry you're feeling so lousy. Hang in there!!


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## Eligracey

We're trying to do NCSS, too. The PPO works sometimes, only at night. The nap-lengthening procedure works maybe 1/3 of the time, but other times he wakes from his nap with no warning, just pops his head up in cobra pose and looks around smiling and cooing. And I sit in the room with him reading quietly, so I know there's definitely no warning the way night-wake-ups have a warning. So I guess 30-45 minute naps sometimes are enough for him, it just seems like at 7 months he should be taking 2 longer naps rather than 3 short naps. The other issue is that the bedtime routine has made getting him down for the night SUPER easy, but he still won't stay asleep any longer than before (5-6 wake-ups a night, when just a month or so ago it was 2 every night!). I'm still greatful for the ease of getting him down--it's much nicer to spend 30 minutes with bath/stories/nurse/rock than 30 minutes rocking. But I've also had limited success with getting him to recognize the nap routine. He's in daycare 4 days a week, and I'm afraid it's too long to go without forgetting what we did last weekend. I guess he'll figure it out eventually, but for now naps are such a battle.

Just wanted to vent to like-minded mamas of poorly sleeping babies!


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## Louisep

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eligracey* 
We're trying to do NCSS, too. The PPO works sometimes, only at night. The nap-lengthening procedure works maybe 1/3 of the time, but other times he wakes from his nap with no warning, just pops his head up in cobra pose and looks around smiling and cooing. And I sit in the room with him reading quietly, so I know there's definitely no warning the way night-wake-ups have a warning. So I guess 30-45 minute naps sometimes are enough for him, it just seems like at 7 months he should be taking 2 longer naps rather than 3 short naps. The other issue is that the bedtime routine has made getting him down for the night SUPER easy, but he still won't stay asleep any longer than before (5-6 wake-ups a night, when just a month or so ago it was 2 every night!). I'm still greatful for the ease of getting him down--it's much nicer to spend 30 minutes with bath/stories/nurse/rock than 30 minutes rocking. But I've also had limited success with getting him to recognize the nap routine. He's in daycare 4 days a week, and I'm afraid it's too long to go without forgetting what we did last weekend. I guess he'll figure it out eventually, but for now naps are such a battle.

Just wanted to vent to like-minded mamas of poorly sleeping babies!

Are you secretly looking after my son?! They are identical in their nap/sleep behavior. I have not really started NCSS in earnest yet. He's got 2 upper canines coming through and I just want to see what happens once they arrive. Last night he woke up probably 8 times. Like your son, he used to wake 1-2 times per night. Sigh....I don't even hope for STTN anymore. 3 wake ups a night would be blissful!


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## Eligracey

Louisep--maybe we can chalk the increased wake-ups up to developing cognitive and motor skills? I keep fantasizing that as soon as he learns to crawl for real he'll STTN. hah! (Actually, learning to roll over did result in a temporary but terrific sleep pattern)


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## LeoneLover13

She's almost 10.5 months old now and there is no improvement, at all. I am frustrated, angry, sad and hopeless that in 4.5 months there has been no improvement in her sleep at all. There have been changes, but nothing for the better, I think it's actually gotten worse. She is still waking every hour, just to comfort nurse now, when it used to be to actually eat and she would unlatch herself when she was done. Now, I have to pop her off, (some form of PPO I guess) which I have been doing since birth. and she usually will turn over and go back to sleep. But it's still every single 'effing hour.








:

I cant believe this has actually become the norm for me. People look terrified when I tell them she has never slept through the night and still wakes every hour. Even if we are cosleeping.
I have become so exhausted I can't sleep anymore. It's midnight and I have been trying to sleep for 2 hours...I am SO tired, but everytime I lay down my mind starts racing, I toss and turn and just feel anxious. I think I am actually becoming anxious that she is going to wake up, so I just don't sleep, what's the point if she's just going to wake me up in 20 mins??










Dear God I love her to death but I am wondering if I have done this to myself and if I have caused her to be so dependant on me to sleep. Should I have stopped this much earlier? Am I now doomed to wake every hour until she turns 2?

I have run out of any patience or willpower to be consistent with anything anymore. If I can get her to sleep and to stay asleep, then I will actually encourage her to comfort nurse for 20 mins. She was NEVER like this before 6 months, and I NEVER worried about having to get her to sleep. Now I dread it.









This is more of a "i'm exhausted and need to get this off my mind in the hopes that I will now be able to sleep" sort of vent. I hope I haven't ruined any other Mom's dreams of babies STTN....but if I had to do over, I duno, at this point, maybe I would change a few things.


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## summer_rose

I'm pretty new to these boards but I had to reply. I could have written your post word for word except my DS is 11 months. I'm even more tired now that I'M not sleeping, for the exact same reasons you mentioned. I lay there just listening to the monitor, waiting because I know he's going to wake up. Usually after the 2nd time I've got up out of bed, I just bring DS in with me and I can fall asleep, but then I'm woken up all the time by his moving around.

How are your naps going? DS started taking longer naps around 7 months I think. So at least we have something going for us I guess.

Have you looked into food allergies/intolerances?? We're going down that road right now thanks to a few suggestions on here. I really think DS is at the very least milk intolerant but we'll see if it helps his sleep. I'm on day 5 of a dairy elimination diet.

((HUGS))


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## Louisep

I feel the same way. Something has to give. Nothing works, he's getting worse and I too have insomnia because of it. Many nights I'm just in tears. I don't have your problem of nursing all night. DS just won't stop moving and he wakes up crawling. It's been like this for 3.5 months. I too blame myself since he used to be fine.

I feel like with the nursing there must be a way to stop it? Is it too early to night wean? I sometimes wish DS wanted nursing back to sleep - it only works 50% of the time. I have to use a different technique each time like pantley recommends. That said, it's not working to lengthen his sleep intervals.

Major frustration today. I have to try something new tonight.

Has anyone tried keeping their LO up super late? We have always put to bed at 7pm. It used to work but now he wakes up 40 mins later.


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## Eligracey

Maybe you don't have to night-wean all together. My friend had good luck with gradually lengthening the interval between feedings, like at first only feed if it's been 2 hours since the last feeding. I think her husband helped soothe baby in between feedings. Sadly, this rarely works for us. Sometimes he's OK being rocked back to sleep with no food, but most times he WAILS until I give in. And it's so late, and I've already been woken up several times already, so I cave. Bad mama. I know I need to work on that, but like Pantley says, I'm too tired to change. At least the kind of change that involves 30 minutes of wailing at 3AM. The PPO a few times a night I can handle (when I don't fall asleep first).

We have tried monekying with the bedtime, and have found out that baby needs exactly 11 hours and 45 minutes of sleep, but will not sleep past 7AM. So the ideal is for him to fall asleep at 7:45PM, so he sleeps until 7AM. Put him to bed at 6:45, he wakes at 6AM. Put him to be at 9PM, he wakes at 7AM but is cranky and tired all day. It didn't help sleep at all, but at least now I know so I can monkey with his wake-up time if we need to get up earlier for anything.


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## LeoneLover13

Thanks for the replies ladies. It's good to know i'm not the only one going berserk over this.

To address a few points or suggestions made:

summer rose: She already has a milk allergy since birth (and I am lactose intolerant) so I avoid everything dairy related. I also stopped soy since she started to develop an allergy to that. Her naps are random. It used to be really easy to get her to sleep but now I have to wait until she is TIRED not just showing signs like the book says and then I basically either force her nurse for 20 mins and she'll be out, or I walk and bounce in a dark room for up to an hour. Three guesses which one I usually pick. I know, Bad mama!

LouiseP: I have tried putting her down really late, really early, the same time everynight and none of it makes a difference for her. She usually sleeps 11-12 hours a night no matter what time I put her down. However last night she actually fell asleep on our walk at 730pm and we just got up at 10am but she's awake every hour, and she woke up for a whole hour rolling around the bed staring at the ceiling. It's like she just can't sleep either, like me.

Eligracey: I still use the PPO everytime she eats and it works fine but there is no development past that like the book says. As far as lengthening and having DH soothe in between...it's hell. He gets frustrated because she just tries to climb off him to get to me, he's exausted because he works 12 hours and gets up at 3am and she will just cry until I give in. Usually once she's latched on, I can pop her off after 5 mins if not less, it's just freaking annoying. Sometimes it just makes me so uncomfortable and gives me the heeby-jeebies when she's just flutter sucking and I am completely empty, I can't stand it.

Well I am glad to know there are others and I am not alone, although it does suck that we are all going through this. It just gives all the CIO friends/family I have more ammo to throw at me when they're trying to convince me to "just let her cry". I really have nothing to say anymore because they are right, I probably did do this to us and I probably won't be able to break it without letting her cry.


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## Louisep

LeoneLover13, just a couple of thoughts. Are you drinking chamomile tea? I am and I think it helps, but it doesn't work straight away.

How are naps? Is that something manageable you can perhaps work on? Maybe just work on getting her on one long nap a day?


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## LeoneLover13

Louisep

That is something I am trying to figure out. Should she be on one long nap or 2 naps a day at this point? I am not sure since she is now 10.5 months. She just went down 1/2 hr ago and will either be down for an hour or 2, I can never tell. But if she sleeps for 2 hours and wakes around noon/one (most days are like that), she will be exhausted around 5/6 and will desperately want to sleep for an hour, and that is way too late and then she's up til 10/11.

I can't get her down earlier because she doesn't wake up til 9/10. Should I try to push it later and get her down around 1pm? It'll be hell, but i'll try it.

BTW..I have not been drinking camomile, I have been drinking echinecea lately because there is a bug going around. Does the camomile help your LO sleep longer/better?


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## Louisep

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeoneLover13* 
Louisep

That is something I am trying to figure out. Should she be on one long nap or 2 naps a day at this point? I am not sure since she is now 10.5 months. She just went down 1/2 hr ago and will either be down for an hour or 2, I can never tell. But if she sleeps for 2 hours and wakes around noon/one (most days are like that), she will be exhausted around 5/6 and will desperately want to sleep for an hour, and that is way too late and then she's up til 10/11.

I can't get her down earlier because she doesn't wake up til 9/10. Should I try to push it later and get her down around 1pm? It'll be hell, but i'll try it.

BTW..I have not been drinking camomile, I have been drinking echinecea lately because there is a bug going around. Does the camomile help your LO sleep longer/better?

That's great that she can nap for so long! You really must force yourself to nap also.

I think it's possible for a 10.5 month old to drop to one nap (my friend's just did), but it sounds like she needs 2.

I can't tell from your post what time you go to bed and what time the nap usually is?

I'm wondering though, do you think she should be getting up earlier? Have you tried a 7pm-7am sleep span?

chamomile helps me relax and sleep and someone also said it seemed to help their LO.

Not here, yawn







Although the last two days I've had success lengthening DS's nap from 40 mins to 2 hours AND he has slept for the first 3 hours of the night without waking. But then, it's the usual story.


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## LeoneLover13

Babygirls schedule got all out of whack lately with us going out so much the past week (DH has an easy week). Shortened naps, or missed naps, late bedtimes etc. had caused her to be not waking until noon the next day and then not going to bed until midnight the following night with one nap around 1pm and the second around 7pm (when I thought she was going to sleep!)







:

So today I tried my utmost to break that bad habit. I woke our tired butts up at 8am after not going to bed til midnight last night (and still waking every hour) and she did great all day...took a 45 min nap at 10am and then 2 hours at 2pm. So we went on our nightly walk at 715pm and she passed out almost immediately at 730/745pm for 1/2 hr just like she has done for 3 days now.









As soon as we got home, I tried to transfer her over to our bed, nursed her...and she woke up bright eyed and bushy-tailed just like after her naps.









What gives?!?! I did everything right, got through this hellish day with my grumpier-than-ive-ever-known-babygirl got her to sleep at a normal hour and she wakes up!! She definitely doesn't need 3 naps so I don't know what the heck is going on. What do I do now?! Do I keep trying the same thing for the next week and be dead on my feet with a horrifically-grumpy baby?


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## Louisep

Sounds to me like the getting up earlier and going to bed earlier is working. I think you should try taking your nightly walk earlier so she doesn't fall asleep on it, but gets sleepy. Then when you get home put her to bed, then when she wakes up she *might* be more likely to fall back asleep.

I'm sure it will take a little while for her to get used to the new earlier schedule too. So hang in there!! I think it's going to work for you because of the naps she was taking.

Good luck!


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## terrainthailand

Sorry LeoneLover13 - those schedule changes can be a bear. After we got back from a 6 week trip to the US, my DD woke up hourly for more than a week. I thought I would go nuts. That was actually what got me to finally read this book.

I agree with LouiseP about trying to avoid her falling asleep in the carrier. You know what NCSS says about falling asleep in the same place the wake up! You could also try adjusting the schedule more gradually (1/2 hour at a time). If, that is, you have the patience!

I hope it can give you some hope, and not drive you crazy, that things are going pretty well for us at the moment. Wake-ups seem to be down to about 3 times/night (once I go to bed at 9:30/10) - though I need to do another log to really be sure. Last night she actually slept straight from 9:30 to 3:30. AMAZING!! Her two bottom teeth are in now and I am planning to take the opportunity to gently encourage her to drop a night feeding. My plan is to make a real effort to get up and bounce her to sleep, rather than offering her the boob straight away. Obviously I will nurse her if she starts to really cry or is rooting around, but I suspect that she won't do that every time. My hope is that a few nights of this might convince her to skip one of those wake-ups. Wish me luck!!


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## 100%mom

Can I join? I haven't read the book yet, but I plan to get it from the library next time I'm there.

My little one is 8 months and I'm TIRED!! Last night he woke up almost every hour. He just nurses and falls back to sleep. He's not awake for more then 5 minutes at a time, but I'm just tired from waking up over and over all night long. A couple weeks ago I moved him out of our bed into a playpen right next to the bed. So now I sit up and feed him on the side of the bed every time he wakes up. His naps are fine. He take a couple hour to two hour naps a day. I just want him to sleep longer at night. There are some nights that he will sleep for a 3 hour stretch, but not many. Most nights he wakes up every two hours.


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## LeoneLover13

Thanks ladies. It's 915am here and I made DH wake us up when he got home from work (he jsut started nights which makes my life SO much harder!) so we'll see how today goes. I will try walking with her earlier and maybe put her in the stroller instead of the carrier. I really hope this works so I can get back to figuring out her waking at night!

100%mom-- Of course you can join! Your situation sounds like mine, which started around 6/7 months. Get the book and get ready for results! Hopefully


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## crabbyowl

Hello!







I'm new to this thread, and want to start doing the NCSS with my 10.5-month-old who still usually wakes every 1.5-2 hours at night.

I started doing just the PPO last night, and I actually only had to get up with her TWICE!!!! Fell asleep at 7:50, up right away, asleep again at 8:35. Up at 12:15, asleep at 12:55. Up at 3:20, diaper change, down at 4:10. Up for the day at 7:45!







:




























:







:

It may have just been because she was expending more energy during the night - the first time I tried putting her down at her usual bedtime she woke up right away and didn't fall back asleep until 45 minutes later. Then her night wakings lasted about 45 minutes each because she didn't want to let me remove her pacifier before she was asleep. She did eventually accept it, though, so hopefully it'll get easier. When she falls asleep right after nursing she'll pull off on her own and close her eyes to sleep, but she usually wants the pacifier after nursing, and she doesn't like it when I try to take that away.








: to everyone!


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## coffeelover

What if you've tried everything and the book didn't help either. My 7 month old daughter goes to bed easily with a bath, swaddle and nurse but wakes up 3 hours later for the boob. I'll bring her to bed and nurse her and then she'll wake up every 2 to 3 hours and nothing will satisfy her. Not the boob, paci or diaper change. I have no idea what she wants and I'm exhausted! I don't see swollen gums so I don't think it's teething and she poops every day so it's not constipation. Calgon take me away!


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## 100%mom

I'm sorry Coffelover. She still could be teething without swollen gums. My baby's first two teeth came in without any swelling. Or could she have an ear infection?

The last two nights have been better for sleep here. The night before last he was up 3 times and last night, I can't remember. lol, but I know he only woke up a few times and not every hour.


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## LeoneLover13

So I have determined it is once again....teething...as always. She has been drooling like a dog for the past week, has a terrible rash every time she poops and has her finger constantly jammed in her mouth. Sooo, she has been waking every 30 mins at some points throughout the night to nurse and only nurse (read: not eating)....tonight she was really feeling bad so I gave in and gave her some motrin and now she's sleeping.

My issue is, if I know she's teething and that's why she's waking, should I give her Motrin to help her sleep? I don't want to give it to her every night though, you know? Even if she is really hurting every night, is there anything else I can give her? It's more of a body pain than a specific tooth pain, I can tell. So I don't think the topical oral gels/pills will work. What do you guys think?


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## Pen_esque

Coffeelover- sorry if this is super obvious, but are you drinking coffee now? Might your lo be reacting to caffeine she gets through nursing?

Either way, I hope you both get some good sleep soon.


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## terrainthailand

LeoneLover - I totally understand about not wanting to give the Motrin. I thought my LO was teething long before she was. I actually did give her one night and it didn't work - because of course she wasn't teething. I still feel bad that I gave it to her unnecessarily. But if you know your LO is in pain - and it is working - I wouldn't hesitate to give it to her. Not forever, no, but I am sure you can use it for several days if necessary.

What does your night time routine currently include? Maybe you could try a nice warm bath, a massage with lavender scented oil or lotion, and some chamomile tea before bed... this combination would be super super soothing and restful for me... maybe it will work on your LO during this tough time??


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## LeoneLover13

terrainthailand- Yeh, I guess a few days shouldn't be too bad. I did use it last night and she was in so much pain it didn't help at all, it was horrendous. She was writhing in pain, screaming every time I laid her down and awake from 10pm to 2am. She didn't wake as much (from what I can try to remember), woke up at 10am today and didn't nap until 4pm (I tried all freaking day!) and finally went down at 10pm tonight.

I am trying to do the same routine every night, but she keeps switching up her times on me and it doesn't work. I am pretty sure she is actually trying to get onto DH's schedule, who just started nights a few days ago, she did the same thing last time he went on nights.

We go on a walk every night at 8pm (later than the usual 7pm to stop her napping) for an hour, after a shower/bath/change into bedtime clothes. Then I catch up on here







and drink my camomile tea..which I am enjoying currently....and then I join her in bed.
Which I am going to do now...wish me luck tonight!

BTW: How are your nights terrainthailand?


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## terrainthailand

Oh geez... poor little thing








I am really really hoping that you two will have a good night.

It makes sense that DH switching shifts would mess with her schedule a bit. Hopefully you guys will find a rhythm soon!







:

I might have asked before but do you think any of the pain is gas-related? This has been an issue on and off for my LO. Often she will writhe around (like you describe), scream out, and then pass gas. Gripe water has really helped for us and I believe it is perfectly safe to use routinely. I also do some pumping of the legs and the "I love you" tummy massage before I put her in her jammies. Sometimes we get some gas out that way.

Our nights are good. Not great. But I am not complaining. We are pretty much back to how things were before she hit 6 months and started waking hourly. I haven't logged in a while, but I am pretty sure she is waking once or twice before I go to bed around 9:30/10 and then 2 or 3 times before we get up at 6:30AM. I really do need to do a log... maybe this week. I'm kind of at a loss as to how to improve from here. I suppose I should really work on this "putting her down tired, but awake" thing, but I am not sure if I have the strength. I tried last week once, just because I put her down and she bolted awake and I didn't have the strength for more bouncy-walk. I sat there next to her for an hour and she never fell asleep. Finally I just picked her up and rocked her to sleep!


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## Louisep

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrainthailand* 

Our nights are good. Not great. But I am not complaining. We are pretty much back to how things were before she hit 6 months and started waking hourly. I haven't logged in a while, but I am pretty sure she is waking once or twice before I go to bed around 9:30/10 and then 2 or 3 times before we get up at 6:30AM. I really do need to do a log... maybe this week. I'm kind of at a loss as to how to improve from here. I suppose I should really work on this "putting her down tired, but awake" thing, but I am not sure if I have the strength. I tried last week once, just because I put her down and she bolted awake and I didn't have the strength for more bouncy-walk. I sat there next to her for an hour and she never fell asleep. Finally I just picked her up and rocked her to sleep!

This is wonderful! How old is your LO now? Our sleep started being disrupted around 5 months and is still bad, but not hourly - every two hours for the most part.

Do you accredit the change in sleep to NCSS? I haven't been very good at doing it consistently, but I felt like we were already doing most of what it suggests so not sure how to use the book really.


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## Louisep

I see your LO is about the same age as mine.


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## terrainthailand

Hi Louise!

Yes, it is great. Most of the moms I know IRL would look at me like I had two heads if they heard me describe this sleep pattern as great. I'm glad people here get it!!









It is so tough to say whether or not the improvements can be accredited to NCSS or whether it was just my LO's natural progression. I _have_ been very consistent with the techniques I chose to use and they have become so much a part of our lives that I scarcely realize I am doing them anymore. In that way, they haven't been a burden to me at all, so it doesn't much matter to me how much they are responsible for the improvement IYKWIM. Honestly, I'm sure they have helped... I just don't know how much.

Here are the things we have done that I think have helped the most:
1. Routine, routine, routine - both a bedtime routine and a predictable rhythm to the day. Daytime certainly gets shaken up now a few times a week, but for at least 2 or 3 weeks I was very consistent.
2. PPO. This was easier for us than it seems to be for others because LO doesn't always fall asleep nursing anyway - usually it was bouncing after she finished. But once I started doing it I noticed her pulling off at night and rolling away when she was done... sometimes she rolls back for more... but then she pulls off again and rolls away.
3. Helping her to fall asleep without my assistance. I spent two weeks being very diligent about putting her down in the crib/family bed asleep, but not deeply asleep. So when I put her down she would stir and sometimes open eyes, and then settle to sleep out of my arms. This was hard for the first week and I had to pick her up many times and try again, but SO SO WORTH IT. Even if it didn't improve overall sleep patterns I would be grateful that it has made transfers such a breeze. Now I would like to progress to putting her down sleepy but awake... just not sure if I am ready for the work!!

What we've tried that hasn't worked for us:
1. Putting her down at the very first sign of sleepiness. For us, it works better to wait until she is really good and tired.
2. Nap routine. There just isn't time and I never found a good routine. I suppose we have one in the sense that I usually take her in her room and nurse her, but no more than that. Also, we do lots of naps on the go in the carrier.
3. Nap lengthening. To be fair, it does work about 75% of the time. But it has definitely NOT translated into longer naps and I have been uber consistent on this. Also, it is very very frustrating when it doesn't work. Even though I know my DD needs more than two 35/40 minute naps, I often think that we would all be much better off if I just let them go and stopped trying to improve them.

Also, I don't think this was really from the book, but switching from 3 naps to 2 naps around 6.5 months made a big improvement for us.

HTH! We did 2 hour intervals too. Very very tough.


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## Louisep

Terrainthailand - you give us all hope!

So here's where we are with things and I'd really like some advice because it seems like our situation is a little different.

DS goes down easily, although I parent him to sleep. Usually less than ten minutes in the mei tai and occasionally nursing to sleep. He starts the night in the crib at the end of our bed. Sometimes he wakes up after one sleep cycle, which is 40 mins for him (which is the length of naps unless I intervene), sometimes he goes two hours until the first wake up. I either get him back down in the crib by rocking or bring him into bed if it's my bedtime.

So here's where I think things are different for us. DS does NOT wake to nurse. He crawls and sits up until he's awake and then it's as if he doesn't know how to lie back down again. If I get to him quickly, I can lay him back down and press gently on his back until he falls asleep again. If I'm dead asleep, I'll nurse him (i've been doing this more and more often because I'm exhausted and it helps me stay asleep). DS pulls off after 5 minutes or I can just break the suction. So he's not wanting to nurse and sometimes nursing him back to sleep doesn't even work and then I have to get up and bounce him in the Mei Tai (those are the WORST nights). The wakings happen every 2 hours or less and it's always the same - wriggling until he's sat up and awake. He rarely cries.

So I feel like I'm doing a lot of what NCSS suggests. We have a routine, he goes to bed early (I've experimented and late bedtime just means he gets less sleep), he has a lovey (but doesn't care for it). I vary between nursing and the MT to get him to sleep (although it's more often the MT). I try different methods at night to get him to go back to sleep.

Re naps. He is a cat napper and really needs 3 a day to make it through (40 min naps). I have been trying the NCSS method to extend the nap and it works about 75% of the time. But I have to be in bed with him and the naps are not extended without me there. I kind of feel like I'm forcing the issue and should just go with his natural nap habit? I'm curious how your 6 month old dealt with just two 40 minute naps a day? Was there a lot of fussing?

So, I guess I'd like any thoughts on how to deal with the sitting up in bed thing. I'm pretty sure he just doesn't know what to do when he finds himself in that position and doesn't even know he's supposed to lay down and sleep. This has been happening for 3 months.

TIA!!


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## terrainthailand

Quote:

Re naps. He is a cat napper and really needs 3 a day to make it through (40 min naps). I have been trying the NCSS method to extend the nap and it works about 75% of the time. But I have to be in bed with him and the naps are not extended without me there. I kind of feel like I'm forcing the issue and should just go with his natural nap habit?
This sounds SO familiar.









Quote:

I'm curious how your 6 month old dealt with just two 40 minute naps a day? Was there a lot of fussing?
Even though I am not thrilled with nap lengthening, I continue to do it, because my DD does not operate all that well with only two 40 minute naps. Once in a while, okay, but daily, not good. So usually she ends up having one nap that is 1 hour and 15 minutes and the other is 40. Sometimes both are at least an hour. If she only gets two short ones, yes she is fussier. But, I can usually distract her with a walk, dancing around the apartment, or otherwise really engaging with her. Aside from wake-ups, which are short, she is usually in bed for about 12 hours a night. I think 14 hours (in a 24 hour period) is supposed to be a good amount of sleep for a baby her age, so really 2 hours of napping should be okay. It helped when I realized this, as I was really trying to get her to nap 3-4 hours a day.

I haven't had much experience with the waking to sit up... sounds kinda cute though.









I would think that using Pantley's 3-step approach to getting him to settle himself would be of great benefit here. It is not fun, but if you could try getting your DS to get used to falling asleep out of your arms, it might help him to go back to sleep when he wakes up and isn't hungry or anything. We haven't made it much past step 1, but I think it has been a big help. What I did was bounce or nurse DD until she was asleep and then rather than waiting until she was in deep sleep, I would immediately put her down, she would rouse a bit (which was what I wanted) and then I would "shhhush" her and pat her bottom. The first few days were rough, I had to keep picking her up and putting her back down. But it really did start to work. It helped me to put her down on her side, the butt was available for patting and it kept her from jerking or flailing around much when I set her down.

Let us know how you make out!!


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## LeoneLover13

It sounds like you both are making at least some progress, that's a great thing!







:

I think/thought we were making some but it's only ever for a day or two and then it's over







She is able SOMETIMES to put herself to sleep by throwing herself around in the bed with me and DH for 20 mins or so and eventually falls asleep herself. It's rare, and she has to be a certain kind of tired..i'm not sure what that is yet...but 2 nights in a row she did it when we finally went to bed around midnight, I was stoked!







Those nights I am pretty sure (without doing a log) that she isn't waking as much to nurse so it is definitely true that how they fall asleep at night is crucial to how the rest of the night will go. At least in my experience.

This past week she has been just all over the place. I've stopped trying to control her naps/bedtime and just let her do her thing to see if that would help and yesterday she took one nap for 45 mins around 2pm and then was sleepy around 8pm but stayed awake since we were out at a friend house and fell asleep at 10pm there. Today it's 1145am and she is asleep!







I haven't been able to get her down before 1/2pm for the past week or two, so hopefully her second nap won't be too late.

I don't really think there is any point in my trying to change her routine (or lack there of) right now because this is all related to teething so will change again. I am actually quite concerned about her because these are the first molars I believe which don't usually come in until after their 1st bday? But she has two HUGE swollen areas on each side of her bottom teeth. I mean HUGELY swollen, I can't see any white poking through, just really swollen gums that don't ever go down. Is that normal??

Good luck tonight everyone!


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## Louisep

Leonelover13 it definitely sounds like teething. DS has also been getting teeth way earlier than he should. I don't think I can blame it anymore for his poor sleep though because even giving him motrin made no difference








hoping you LO and you get relief soon.

I don't feel like we're making progress but I'm still not doing NCSS in earnest. DH is travelling and I can't bear to do it all on my own. I'm so tired I just don't have the patience you know? Last night was really tough on me and I just felt I was losing it. Then from about midnight til 5 he woke once! Then back to sleep til 7. So maybe that is progress? From 7-12pm it was awful. I hate it when I get emotional bc I'm on my own, tired, and can't face having to get up again (ds cosleeps but often needs rocking to sleep).


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## LeoneLover13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Louisep* 
Leonelover13 it definitely sounds like teething. DS has also been getting teeth way earlier than he should. I don't think I can blame it anymore for his poor sleep though because even giving him motrin made no difference








hoping you LO and you get relief soon.

I don't feel like we're making progress but I'm still not doing NCSS in earnest. DH is travelling and I can't bear to do it all on my own. I'm so tired I just don't have the patience you know? Last night was really tough on me and I just felt I was losing it. Then from about midnight til 5 he woke once! Then back to sleep til 7. So maybe that is progress? From 7-12pm it was awful. I hate it when I get emotional bc I'm on my own, tired, and can't face having to get up again (ds cosleeps but often needs rocking to sleep).

:HUGS:

I'm sure we all know exactly how you are feeling. I feel like I am losing it a lot lately. There is only so much you can do and take by yourself without completely falling apart!








That sounds like progress to me. But if you know for sure he is teething, I would honestly stop trying so hard. I gave in to her 'demands' and just decided to flow with whatever she needs/wants and it's a lot easier on you during such a hard time.

Make sure to nap as often as he does during the day (or just lay on the couch/bed whilst they are sleeping if you are like me and cant sleep during the day!) and don't plan anything too busy until DH comes home or even until this phase is over. It's just too much for one Mommy to handle sometimes, but rest assured you are doing such an incredible thing for your little boy! If he could tell you, I'm sure he would say "Thank you Mommy!"


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## Louisep

Aw, thanks Leonelover13. That made me feel so much better


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## Louisep

Bumping for the member who was asking for a crash course in NCSS.

But while I'm here...









Had a great night last night! Not sure why but from 11pm to 6am I think DS only woke twice







: There was a wakeful period from 9:30-11pm though, but I think later in the night we may have had a 3-4 hour stretch!


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## LeoneLover13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Louisep* 
Bumping for the member who was asking for a crash course in NCSS.

But while I'm here...









Had a great night last night! Not sure why but from 11pm to 6am I think DS only woke twice







: There was a wakeful period from 9:30-11pm though, but I think later in the night we may have had a 3-4 hour stretch!


That's fantastic Louisep!!







:

I unfortunately have had the worst nights in a long time. I'm going to write a new post in the forum because I need help, I can't do this anymore. Plus all my stories are bad ones







I never seem to have any good news to share, so until I do, I shall live through you guys!


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## 100%mom

My baby slept from 9:30 til 1:30 last night without waking up!







:


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## Louisep

Quote:


Originally Posted by *100%mom* 
My baby slept from 9:30 til 1:30 last night without waking up!







:

That's awesome! What things have you been trying? I starting to do the phase approach to putting DS back down. We had a bad night last night after the relatively good night before. Oh well...


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## Louisep

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrainthailand* 
I would think that using Pantley's 3-step approach to getting him to settle himself would be of great benefit here. It is not fun, but if you could try getting your DS to get used to falling asleep out of your arms, it might help him to go back to sleep when he wakes up and isn't hungry or anything. We haven't made it much past step 1, but I think it has been a big help. What I did was bounce or nurse DD until she was asleep and then rather than waiting until she was in deep sleep, I would immediately put her down, she would rouse a bit (which was what I wanted) and then I would "shhhush" her and pat her bottom. The first few days were rough, I had to keep picking her up and putting her back down. But it really did start to work. It helped me to put her down on her side, the butt was available for patting and it kept her from jerking or flailing around much when I set her down.

Let us know how you make out!!

Just starting to do this and it's going well so far. Well in the sense that I'm putting him down before he is in deep sleep, he rouses slightly, and then goes back to sleep without me having to pick him up again. However, I've only been doing this when I put him to sleep the first time at night.

It seems like it's something easier to do if they sleep in their own crib? Does your DD sleep in her own bed? Are you using this method when she wakes at night?


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## 100%mom

My baby was sleeping in a playpen next to our bed until I moved it out into the living room a couple nights ago. The first night it took an hour of nursing, laying him down, crying, picking him back up to comfort him, nursing, laying him back down before he gave up and went to sleep when I layed him down. Each time I layed him down sleepy but awake. That first night he fell asleep at 10, then he woke to nurse at 12:30, 3:30, and 5:30. Then last night he was sleeping by 9 and didn't wake up til 2:30!!!!







Then again at 5:30. So I'm hoping that wasn't a one night thing.


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## terrainthailand

Hey, haven't checked here in a bit. as DD had a rough week last (due to teething? growth spurt?).

Quote:

Just starting to do this and it's going well so far. Well in the sense that I'm putting him down before he is in deep sleep, he rouses slightly, and then goes back to sleep without me having to pick him up again. . . It seems like it's something easier to do if they sleep in their own crib? Does your DD sleep in her own bed? Are you using this method when she wakes at night?
I'm glad it is giving you some success. Being able to transfer DD after nursing her to sleep was the best thing I got out of this. We've been working on step 2 now, getting her to fall asleep out of arms. It is taking longer, but I think I am starting to see some progress.

To answer your questions, she sleeps in her crib until I go to bed, usually, I have used this to transfer her to the family bed too though. Like you, I usually only use this approach for the start of the night (and naps). In the middle of the night I have been just using nursing and the PPO (which we have a lot of success with).

It isn't necessarily NCSS, but I am gently trying to cut out a couple of her night feedings to see if that makes any difference. Instead of just giving the breast, I've been waking myself up and trying to soothe her back to sleep in other ways. I've been doing this for two nights now, and so far, not so bad as I expected. It has been taking about 10 minutes for her to fall back to sleep with me rubbing her back and shusshing. About 3 minutes of that is crying (but not the crazy desperate kind) and the rest is just kind of complaining noises). I'm really hoping to see some success from this.


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## LuluMama8

So I have spent the last few days reading each and every one of these 24 pages looking for help with sleep issues for my 3 1/2 month old DD. First of all, I am so sad there are so many mamas, babies, and dads getting so little sleep. Second, I am so moved and impressed by your perseverance to work with your LOs to get everyone some sleep.

I am not in the desperate situation of many in this thread as my DD sleeps very well through the night (8-9 hours since she was 8 weeks old; I am very grateful for this, don't get me wrong) in an amby baby hammock right next to me. The problems are she is starting to wake up every 20 minutes or so for a couple hours when we put her down at night, she is having horrid short, erratic naps, and she is super addicted to nursing to sleep (which often takes an hour or so). I spend a lot of my day trying to help her get to sleep with nursing or the sling and then a lot of time keeping her asleep. I just started using techniques from NCSS (actually no cry nap solutions) including sitting with her throughout naps to try to lenghten them either with rocking her hammock if she moves a little or picking her up and nursing her if she wakes up and is crying and am trying desperately to use the PPO so she is not attached to my breast for hours every day. I LOVE breastfeeding her, but I don't want that to be the ONLY way she can get to sleep (if she falls asleep in the sling, she has to stay there, I can't move from sling to hammock or she'll wake up and her sling naps are short).

So my questions to all of you are:
- Tell me more about how exactly you did PPO, how your LO responded, and how long it took to get results? (I have used Cartesia's advice from earlier in the thread to start when she is not yet asleep and to repeat every 15-30seconds but I do it 15-30 times [my nipples are getting really sore] and she instantly looks for the nipple again even with the chin holding and just keeps falling more and more asleep oblivious to my PPOs but still wanting to suck until she is asleep enough to eventually let me PPO and put her down fast asleep. It feels like it's not working at all differently from when I used to let her suck until she was fast asleep and then slip my nipple out and put her down)

-Also, related to the PPO, I find that if I try to immediately rock or shush or bounce her she very quickly wakes up and I have added 30 minutes or more to getting her to sleep. What exactly do people do immediately after the PPO?

-Besides wearing the baby (as I mentioned above, I can't transfer her asleep from carrier to bed), what other ways besides nursing have people successfully used to get their nursing-addicted babies to sleep?

I know this is a long post, but I could really use your helpwith these rather specific issues. Thanks!


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## terrainthailand

Hi LuluMama8 - I wanted to give you some feedback, though the "suck to sleep" association hasn't really been our issue, so I hope that someone else will respond to you as well!

*1. PPO not working/feels the same as removing nipple once she is asleep.* I totally hear you on this one, but I think if you persevere, you will eventually get results. How long? Probably varies a lot by kiddo. I still have times when I have to do PPO 7-10 times in a row, but the majority of the time my LO will pop off when she is full, roll away, and fall asleep. I think it is important to be persistent, that is, don't wait too long between attempts. Don't give her the chance to fall completely asleep, keep giving her the opportunity to fall asleep without the nipple in her mouth. Hang in there!! It is so worth it to see your baby's back!









*2. What do you do right after PPO?* We worked diligently on the first step of NCSS's 3 step approach to getting the baby to fall asleep out of arms. We haven't really progressed much past step 1, but I think it is because I am so satisfied.







For me, when PPO works, my LO comes of the breast, sighs, rolls a bit (unless in my arms), and is asleep. I then transfer her to the crib (or bed) right away. When she stirs, I shhh/pat butt to sleep. It works amazingly! Now, if after PPO she opened her eyes, or otherwise indicated she wasn't asleep yet, I would pop the breast right back in there and never allow her to become completely awake. If the breast isn't working, then I would bounce to sleep or whatever would work. I know, there is nothing more frustrating than having your LO asleep and then "ruining it" and having to spend an additional 30 minutes getting back to that place.

*3. Getting to sleep without nursing?* For the first 4 months of my LO's life she would NOT nurse to sleep. I usually bounced her to sleep in my arms after nursing, it is pretty much like wearing her to sleep, except it is much easier to transfer her to a bed - or just sit down and read a book if the transfer isn't going to happen. It worked, but I don't really recommend it, because as baby gets bigger, bedtime gets harder. Right now what I am doing (sort of a spin off of the latter steps in the NCSS 3 step plan mentioned above) is laying down in bed with LO, nursing until almost asleep, and then laying there and soothing, re-offering the breast, etc until she falls asleep next to me. The first week it took an hour every night... there were some tears, but not many, and I was always there, and always re-offering the breast. The second week the time starting coming down and last night it only took 15 minutes!!! She nursed until content, popped off, rolled back and forth for a couple of minutes and then closed her eyes.. AMAZING!!! That night.. she only woke 2 times. Even more amazing.

Hope any of that can be helpful to you!!


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## LuluMama8

Thanks a lot, Terra, for your detailed response. I have stopped the PPOs for now since my nipples were just getting way too sore and I've had problems with infections in the past so I didn't want them to get too beat up. What I do instead is take out the nipple when she's drowsy but not asleep, she wakes up and looks around for the nipple, and I put her down in her hammock and rock/sway/shush for 15-20 minutes and she usually falls asleep! If at any point she starts crying I pick her up and nurse her until she's fast asleep. Some naps she really just wants to nurse the whole nap and so I let her maybe once a day do that. The other naps she's either in the sling (once a twice a day), in her hammock, or in bed with me. I cannot seem to lengthen her naps at all (they are usually 45 minutes) with any of Pantley's methods although I have been consistently trying and, for now, I've decided to let it go and just let her follow the sleep schedule she desires.


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## CookAMH

Joining in here, too tired to read up now. Starting Phase one tonight with 6.5mo DS. Had a successful gentle removal of the paci earlier tonight! He had been waking up an hour after going down, as if from a nap, but hasn't tonight. We put him in a sposie tonight.

Anyone have a better night sleeper in sposies compared to CD? We figure, if this is the case with him, one dipe a night or one pack a month is worth the $10.


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## Cartesia

Lulu Mama -

Sounds like your solution of transferring to the Amby while she is drowsy is a good idea.

You know, the other thing to keep in mind is that all the sleep stuff changes so much over the course of a year so something might suddenly start working that never worked before and vice versa.

When my DS was your daughter's age, he would only nap in the sling while BOUNCING THE ENTIRE TIME...no joke.....OR, attached to my nipple and nursing the entire time. At around 5 months he finally started napping in the Amby and for a long time that worked beautifully. Then, at 10 months, he stopped wanting to nap in the Amby and what works now at 11 months is bouncing him until he is mostly asleep (takes 5-10 minutes) and then laying him down alone on a twin mattress with a safety gate around it.

Also, not to scare you, but night time sleep does seem to change around 4 months and you might not be able to count on the great nights you are having now. My LO slept wonderfully until 4 months and then it was another story completely....at 10 months it started getting better and now at 11 months we are just starting to get 5 & 6 hour chunks again...on a good night...and I fully expect it will change again when his molars start coming in....

So, I know it is important to try to work with sleep associations and all of that and at the same time, some of theses things just change with time. I think there is a fine balance between encouraging change and just trying to go with the flow.

You'll get through it. It is so hard but it really does go by fast, esp. after the first 6 months....


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## justKate

*CookAMH*, we do prefer sposies for night time. Never managed to get through a night leak-free in a CD.

So can anyone help me with my NCSS issue? We PPO pretty well--she doesn't object much (usually) and often rolls away from me afterwards. The problem is nightwaking--I don't wake up enough to look at the clock and write anything down to really identify her sleep patterns. All I know is that she wakes 5-6 times each night and nurses back to sleep, ending with the PPO.

Also, does anyone feel like NCSS is geared more towards _keeping_ the baby asleep rather than _getting_ the baby to sleep? What does Ms. Pantley suggest for sleep fighters who will nurse until they're full and then scream?

Sorry if it sounds cynical, I'm just at wit's end here....


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## annemoonstar

Ok, I'm in contemplation mode with the NCSS. I have read most of the book and have tried some of the techniques here and there. This is our current situation...any advice with how to get started from here would be great!

DS doesn't usually fight going to sleep. We have a relatively predictable routine--say night night to DH, aunt, and dog, change into a sleep diaper (I too have been using sposies--we had constant leaks with CD, and last time I tried to put a big bulky sleep CD on DS he screamed until I changed him!), and PJ's. Then we look at some books, tell a "story" about our day, turn down the lights, walk, rock, and sing a lullaby, then lie down to nurse.

I have been doing PPO for a long time and sometimes it works amazingly (he rolls over and is asleep), other times I need to shush and pat his bottom, other times he roots, whines and moves around (with eyes closed) and I will need to do the PPO for 6, 7, 8 times, usually by that time he has essentially nursed to sleep. Then there is the recent behavior, where he seems like he is very close to being asleep (eyes closed, body relaxed). I remove the nipple, and he immediately rolls over, pops up and is crawling away (sleepy, disoriented crawling--but in motion nonetheless!). So then we start over. He always nurses lying next to me (not in arms).

The whole night time process from saying night-night to being asleep can take anywhere from 15-45 minutes, but usually its the shorter time frame. He starts off the night on a futon next to our bed (surrounded on all sides so he can't get out). After the first waking when we get in bed, he comes in bed with us.

So the bigger problem is staying asleep. He almost always wakes at least once between his bed time (between 6:30-7:30) and our bed time (usually between 9:30-10). But sometimes he wakes 4 times in that same time period...always requiring being nursed back down. I do PPO every time during these wakings since I am still awake and can be intentional about it. Sometimes he just sucks for a minute, then I can pull out and be on my way. Other times he actually will eat again and it will be more like 15 minutes before he is out enough for me to leave.

I always nurse him again when he comes to bed with us and again do PPO. Usually this is an easy one since I am right there and he just snuggles up and goes to sleep. The night wakings between that time and morning vary hugely. Some nights he might only wake twice. Other nights (like last night), it's every hour. During these wakings I almost always have to nurse him and almost always I fall back asleep immediately so don't PPO. And sometimes I'll wake an hour or so later and he is still nursing--I don't know if he has been nursing the whole time, or has re-latched when he wakes. I have not had the motivation or energy to write down all of these wakings so this is all just a guesstimate.

So here are the interventions I have been contemplating. Any thoughts/advice on which to try first or not to attempt?

1. Try to transition him to sleeping more of the night on the futon. If I have to come down to him to get him back to sleep, maybe I can be more consistent with finding other ways (other than nursing) to get him back to sleep. Plus, maybe he would wake less if not sleeping right next to me (although the first part of the night would suggest this isn't the case).

2. Intentially try to identify the times he is actually nursing to eat vs. for comfort. Nurse him during those times, but have DH take him to walk for all other wakings (won't go over well with DH, but he says he wants to help).

3. Re-arrange our routine so that we nurse and then I walk/rock him all the way to sleep. He does not transition well from arms to bed though, so I'm not sure this will work.

4. Wait it out. I've been really unsure about whether or not to intervene since everyone tells me this is a normal sleep regression age (he will be 9 months next week) and since his sleep patterns are so inconsistent it's hard to know what the main issue is. On the other hand, I WOH so really need to find a way to get more consistent sleep...

Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Thank you oh wise mamas!


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## Birdie B.

subbing - I am just now reading the NCSS for my 13 month old who was an excellent sleeper until a couple months ago! I am desperate for a longer stretch of sleep at night!


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## sarahz5

Annemoonstar - I can relate to so much of what you said! Here's what I have learned, and I wouldn't have wanted to hear it at 9 months anymore than you probably will... some breastfed babies wake up more because they are looking for the milk. I know it's all anecdotal, but so many of my friends' babies started sleeping when they weaned.

I am committed to nursing for at least two years, but at about 15 minutes I started gently nightweaning. I cannot tell you the difference it made. I went from pulling my hair out over 6-8 wakings a night to dealing with only 2-3 wakings per night at the most. Now he is down to 1-2 wakings, and sometimes the first one doesn't come until 5 am or so. If I ever lose consistency and start letting him nurse at night again, he reverts right back and wakes up more often.

I have also found a big difference when my DH puts him to sleep instead of me. If I nurse him downstairs, and DH takes him up and puts him to bed, he is a lot more likely to sleep soundly through the night. I don't know why it matters, but I guess if he nurses RIGHT before sleep, even though I make sure he doesn't fall asleep nursing, he has it right on the tip of his brain when he wakes up.

I wouldn't feel comfortable nightweaning at 9 months, but it's something that you can consider for the near future. I've mentioned this on a different thread, but the way I did it was to keep track of when he nursed and how long for a few nights. Then, instead of waiting for him to wake up, I would try to get him to dream feed about half an hour before his earliest usual wakeup. That way, he wasn't likely to wake up, because he was satiated. And so on for the rest of the usual nursing sessions. The first night, I nursed him the same amount of time he nursed the previous nights. After that, I cut down each nursing session by 2 minutes, until he no longer needed that session. I read about this in a book, and the reason they suggest this method is (a) it breaks the association between breastfeeding and waking up; and (b) even if the baby doesn't physiologically need food at night, it's hungry because it is accustomed to eating during the night and it hasn't adjusted its daytime intake to account for not eating. So if you do it gradually, the baby will eat more during the day to make up for it, and the habit will be gently broken.

Anyway, I know other things work for other people, but that's what worked for me! My son went down to sleep easily, and was even easy to get back to sleep after he woke up, so I know I am lucky in that respect - but he just CONSTANTLY woke up! Sounds like you are dealing with something similar. Good luck - I hope you find something that works for you!


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## Kempnich

I know this was a looong time ago that you posted this, but I'm just wondering what you ended up doing. I feel like I'm reading what I would post. My Eva fights sleep like crazy! After two weeks, she is just now letting me rock her to sleep without screaming. She usually nurses to sleep, but because I did that, she started fighting nursing, too. Anyway, she wakes up a couple of times at night, but that's no big deal. Her naps are what kill me. It takes me forever to get her to sleep and then she only sleeps a little bit and wakes up tired. I try to put her back to sleep, but that has worker twice in the past two weeks. Anyway, just wondering what you did. Thanks!


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