# Smart Mouth/Talking Back and Natural Consequences - see post #34



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

(Sorry this became so long... please read it and help me understand what is going on!!)









I'm wondering how to handle my very mouthy dd, who will be 5 in a month or so.

She attends preschool and we do not have this problem during the summer when she is not around the other kids. I volunteer a lot at her school and I see a small group of kids in her class (about 3 or 4 of them) that are extremely rude, talk very meanly to the teacher. Almost verbatim, I hear the same things coming from my dd at home. I try, try, try to keep my patience with her and talk to her about "speaking nicely" and "showing respect". I've tried talking to her about hurt feelings and making people sad with her words.

But it continues and seems to be getting worse. I've tried using natural consequences... here's an example.

Me: Okay, kiddo... it's time to start getting ready for bed. You can play with your Polly Pocket for 5 more minutes and then let's go upstairs.
DD: OK, mommy.
Me: (5 minutes later... using a timer) Okay, time to start getting ready for bed. Tell Polly Pocket goodnight.
DD: I WON'T!! I WON'T GO TO BED.
Me: I gave you your 5 minute warning and you agreed to it. It's now been 5 minutes and it's time for bed.
(This goes back and forth as dd yells mean things and telling me that I'm not being nice.)

In the past, I've said, "Fine. If you don't go to bed, you'll not want to get up in the morning"... natural consequences.

But the next morning, she is miserable, I am miserable. And there are lots of tears and more yelling.

A few nights ago I said, "That's enough." to myself. I was out of patience and I MADE her go to bed... all along her telling me, "You're not NICE!!!" Some tears, but she did go to bed.

The next morning, she got up on her own and was all smiles because she got a good night's sleep.

It seems to me that the natural consequences are doing more harm than good. But my forcing her to bed can't be that great either.

One thing to note: She still sleeps with us and we have not pushed her to sleep in her own bed. I lay down with her and rub her back until she goes to sleep... even if it means (and it usually does) 45 minutes to an hour. It's not like I'm sending her off to be alone, so it's not an issue of her wanting to be with us during the evening. We have a set routine that includes teeth brushing, bathroom, drink of water, and lots of reading.

I realize that she is probably not super tired when we start the bedtime routine, but from starting to bed to actual sleep, it's about 1 hour, minimum. I've tried letting her keep a toy DURING the routine and exchanging it for her stuffed animal she sleeps with, but that makes things even worse.

This struggle, which didn't exist at all a few months ago, now happens for: meal times, wake up time, bath time, bed time... you get the picture. It doesn't seem like a power struggle to me, it seems like she has seen the reaction these kids get from their teacher (attention) and she is using it to get more attention at home. But it's not like she doesn't get plenty of attention. My mother lives with us and dotes on her, her father plays with her when he's home, I read to her a lot and play board games with her. She's an only child. Is this the beginning of her truly becoming "spoiled"? (I hate using that word, but she sure is acting like a typical "entitled" child.)

What to do? How do you handle the smart mouth when the natural consequences are worse than any parent-enforced consequences? It seems like at this point, LITERALLY, the ONLY thing that gets her to stop talking meanly is for me to take away privileges. Help!! Any advice?


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Since she is 5, I would ask for her input on a bedtime schedule, publish and post the schedule. If you give her the responsibility and privelage of having input in the process, I found that kids will be a lot more cooperative. After all you are following her plan, not vice-versa. You don't have to make it that rigid, like for instance we have had success with this (with kids staying with us) just asking them at or after dinner what they would like to do until bedtime and how we could plan things so that they won't feel like they are missing out by going to bed.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Me: Okay, kiddo... it's time to start getting ready for bed. You can play with your Polly Pocket for 5 more minutes and then let's go upstairs.
DD: OK, mommy.
Me: (5 minutes later... using a timer) Okay, time to start getting ready for bed. Tell Polly Pocket goodnight.
DD: I WON'T!! I WON'T GO TO BED.
Me: I gave you your 5 minute warning and you agreed to it. It's now been 5 minutes and it's time for bed.
(This goes back and forth as dd yells mean things and telling me that I'm not being nice.)
Your dd is expressing her feelings of frustration and anger in a very typical 5yo way. Instead of focusing on getting her to comply with your request, I would try to show her that you hear her and give her some more appropriate ways to express herself. Kids want to feel heard--if they don't they will try to express themselves in stronger and stronger ways.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

_few nights ago I said, "That's enough." to myself. I was out of patience and I MADE her go to bed... all along her telling me, "You're not NICE!!!" Some tears, but she did go to bed.

The next morning, she got up on her own and was all smiles because she got a good night's sleep.

It seems to me that the natural consequences are doing more harm than good. But my forcing her to bed can't be that great either._








I understand how frustrating it can be to work through these stages. BTDT, Mama.

Perhaps you could let her take her Polly Pockets TO bed? Maybe she'll learn to fall asleep when she's tired that way.

Learning to control and understand our internal clocks is a process. She will benefit more from you calmly talking to her after a long night (when she's cranky or sleepy the next day), than she'll benefit from being forced to head to bed.

This part of parenting is hard. It requires us to realise that our babies are capable of making good choices...but they need practice at that.









Why is her staying up past her "bedtime" making *you* cranky the next day? Because of her own exhaustion? Or something else?

If you let go of controlling this issue, you may find that she can discover her own balance. Not everyone needs 12 hours of sleep. (I, myself, get about 4 hourse every 3 days...it's just my natural clock working).

love, penelope


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Okay, I don't have a kid that age yet. So take this for what it's worth.









I will have to respectfully disagree with the pp. I think the natural consequence of being cranky the next day is too far in the future to do any real teaching at your dd's age. Kids (heck, even most adults) have a lot of problems foregoing the immediate payoff for some possible negative consequence in the future. And not getting enough sleep has cumulative effects. It affects decision-making abilities. So, less sleep makes it less likely that she'll be able to make the good decision to go to bed. I think this is a natural consequence that's "too big" to experience at her age.

I would enforce the bedtime. Give her the input in negotiating the routine or the time, like a pp suggested. Then once you have an agreement, stick to it. As for the screaming fits at bedtime, I'd be tempted to say, "wow, you must really be tired to be acting that way. You're obviously not getting enough sleep. I guess bedtime should be a half hour earlier tomorrow."


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This struggle, which didn't exist at all a few months ago, now happens for: meal times, wake up time, bath time, bed time... you get the picture. It doesn't seem like a power struggle to me, it seems like she has seen the reaction these kids get from their teacher (attention) and she is using it to get more attention at home. But it's not like she doesn't get plenty of attention. My mother lives with us and dotes on her, her father plays with her when he's home, I read to her a lot and play board games with her. She's an only child. Is this the beginning of her truly becoming "spoiled"? (I hate using that word, but she sure is acting like a typical "entitled" child.)


No, not spoiled at all! I don't like that word either. My ds was an only until he was 5 when his baby brother was born and he went through all this stuff at 5 as well. It's easy to look back on it and see what I should have done at the time - lol. But, I can look back and see what did work when we were going through it. For him, it has always been helpful to talk about issues in a non-emotional time. So, if you are having problems at bedtime, the time to talk about it is not at bedtime, but the next morning or early afternoon.

Ask her why she is having trouble getting ready for bed. And ask her for solutions. Maybe you could implement one or two of her suggestions, if they are mutually agreeable. Write the new plan of action down and post it on the fridge or some other prominent place.

With whatever issues I have with my oldest ds, this is the method I always use and it always works. He is surprisingly good at coming up with reasonable ideas.

I recommend reading How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk. It is a great book and 5 is a great age to really start using the techniques in the book.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Just chiming in and agreeing that "you'll be tired tomorrow" is too far away to be an effective natural consequence.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Could she need more notice? Like 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 2 minutes? Does saying "put the toys away so we can read a story" improve matters any?

Does she respond well to "you don't have to go to sleep, but you do need to lay quietly in bed with me"?


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Just chiming in and agreeing that "you'll be tired tomorrow" is too far away to be an effective natural consequence.

I'm 42 and it is too far away for me. Many a time I've thought if I continue to read I'm going to feel like hell tomorrow, but does it stop me? Nope. If someone was saying that to me I'd feel like they were just heaping grief on me.

My main suggestion to the original poster would be to wave your magic wand and try something totally different. Change the routine quite a bit and adopt the most positive attitude you can muster and sell it that things have improved. It sounds like you are stuck in a struggle and it isn't getting better. If/when she does complain rather than trying to shut her down from being mean or starting to power her into doing what you say by using a threat, I'd instead acknowledge her feelings and reword it into a more appropriate way to say it if need be. It is okay for her to disagree with you, to say she's upset about something and to "talk back", but she may need help finding ways to do that without being unkind.

I agree with the poster who suggested that you work out a routine together and you make it into a visual routine chart so she can see what happens next. We found it works best to have fun stuff later in the routine - so it could be bath, pjs, teeth, books, songs, snuggles. Something where she sees that by getting a move on she gets more time for the stuff she likes.


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## gr8fulmom (Jun 27, 2002)

I agree that at 5 you should engage her to help you find solutions to issues as they arise... like at a different time I would decsribe the problem without blame or guilt (very hard tho







) and then ask dc to help come up with a plan to try and agree to talk again to review how the plan is working...

also I wanted to suggest that timers do not work for every child and not every time... I don't use a timer almost at all (we have one very specific activity where we use it) AND even when they agree to something they don't always want to comply when its time to do their part... so then I say something like "you did say you would put your toys away after 5 minutes and now it is time for bed, is there something you need to do to finish playing so we can get ready for bed?" usually when I say something like this my dc will tell me what he wanted to finish and that's that... it's just that they don;t have an exact perception of time and may be in the middle of something and unwilling to stop... HTH


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Thank you all for reading my long post and offering suggestions.

About the bedtime routine itself... There are really only 3 steps to it... teeth brushing, reading, sleep. I don't bathe her right before bed because it makes her INCREDIBLY hyper. I can't really change it up that much. During an evening, I give her warnings about when bedtime will be. (e.g. "You have time to play one game of Yatzee or 3 hands of Uno.") It's NOT a surprise when bedtime comes.

Every morning that she wakes up cranky we DO talk about why she is cranky. She agrees that she needs to go to bed early and she agrees that she doesn't like being tired in the morning. I am cranky in the morning because she sleeps with us and she wakes me up several times a night. I often will wake up at 3:00am and not get back to sleep until 5am to wake at 6am. So, I'm trying to get her ready for school and myself ready for work (I work at a library two mornings a week) and I'm super tired... and she starts the day with back-talking because she's tired. I admit I'm not at the top of my game on these mornings. If she would just quit the smart mouth, I'd be fine.

We've talked and talked and talked about this. I've read How to Talk cover to cover TWICE!! Trying to get her to express her emotions nicely, to have her understand that all emotions are okay, but not all actions/words are... it doesn't work with her. I can say, "I can hear how frustrated you are about going to bed." and I'll get, "Yes, I'm frustrated, and I'm not going to bed and you can make me!!"

It's not just with bedtime... that was just an example. My main concern is not bedtime. It's her talking rudely to me, back-talking, and acting hateful like the kids at her school do. That is my problem!! I need to try to stop this behavior because not only does it push MY patience, it will get her in trouble at school.

I have talked to her until I'm blue in the face about speaking nicely. I've said, "I will not have you talking to me like that. I'm going in the living room and when you can talk to me nicely, please come find me." Nope... doesn't work. We are about to leave to go visit family overseas and she'll be out of school about 4 weeks. By week 2, she'll be back to her sweet, loving self. The day she goes back to school it will be like this all over again. I just get frustrated about how to make her talk nicely.

Sorry about the rant. And thanks for the words of advice. I will think hard about them.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Oh and the timers... she does like them. I even let her set it herself. We've used the timer for years now and when she's not in school, the beeper goes off and she's happy as a clam to transition to the next activity... be it going to bed or going shopping. During the school year (when she has problems with her smart-mouth and talking mean to us), she'll set the timer, but when it goes off... it's like her signal to turn into Mr. Hyde.


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## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids...e=UTF8&s=books

Have you read this book? I just did. What an eye opener!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Oh and the timers... she does like them. I even let her set it herself. We've used the timer for years now and when she's not in school, the beeper goes off and she's happy as a clam to transition to the next activity... be it going to bed or going shopping. During the school year (when she has problems with her smart-mouth and talking mean to us), she'll set the timer, but when it goes off... it's like her signal to turn into Mr. Hyde.









Sounds like school's the problem. But other than not having her go to school I can't think of what a solution would be.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Thank you all for reading my long post and offering suggestions.

About the bedtime routine itself... There are really only 3 steps to it... teeth brushing, reading, sleep. I don't bathe her right before bed because it makes her INCREDIBLY hyper. I can't really change it up that much. During an evening, I give her warnings about when bedtime will be. (e.g. "You have time to play one game of Yatzee or 3 hands of Uno.") It's NOT a surprise when bedtime comes.

The change can be more in style than substance. I'd sit down with your daughter and get her imput. The change doesn't have to be a major one. It can be adding in a song or a poem or a special ritual of some sort. It is about changing the overall attitude and feeling and getting away from the power struggle you are caught in togetether by giving her more of a sense of control.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Every morning that she wakes up cranky we DO talk about why she is cranky. She agrees that she needs to go to bed early and she agrees that she doesn't like being tired in the morning. I am cranky in the morning because she sleeps with us and she wakes me up several times a night. I often will wake up at 3:00am and not get back to sleep until 5am to wake at 6am. So, I'm trying to get her ready for school and myself ready for work (I work at a library two mornings a week) and I'm super tired... and she starts the day with back-talking because she's tired. I admit I'm not at the top of my game on these mornings. If she would just quit the smart mouth, I'd be fine.

It sounds to me like the sleeping situation needs to change. If it isn't working it is time to change something. It seems like you would be okay with her being tired as long as she doesn't act tired (maybe not how you really feel but that is how it is coming across here). If she's waking up everyone and waking up herself maybe it is time to consider a new sleeping arrangment.

At the heart of it do you believe she's a good kid and wants to be behave well and get along? If so, how can something be changed to allow her to be the good kid she wants to be?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
We've talked and talked and talked about this. I've read How to Talk cover to cover TWICE!! Trying to get her to express her emotions nicely, to have her understand that all emotions are okay, but not all actions/words are... it doesn't work with her. I can say, "I can hear how frustrated you are about going to bed." and I'll get, "Yes, I'm frustrated, and I'm not going to bed and you can make me!!"

How do you respond to that? My response would be "you are right, I can't make you". That's a fact. You can't. Might won't get you there. You can't force another person to sleep.

I would suggest that by the time it reaches this point, it isn't really how you handle it from there though. It is about preventing it from reaching that point. If she's not sleeping well the night before she's probably totally overtired at that point and that's why she's cranky.

It's not just with bedtime... that was just an example. My main concern is not bedtime. It's her talking rudely to me, back-talking, and acting hateful like the kids at her school do. That is my problem!! I need to try to stop this behavior because not only does it push MY patience, it will get her in trouble at school.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I have talked to her until I'm blue in the face about speaking nicely. I've said, "I will not have you talking to me like that. I'm going in the living room and when you can talk to me nicely, please come find me." Nope... doesn't work.

What happens?

It sounds like she's really experiencing a lot of pain with school. Is there anyway to change the environment she's in?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
The change can be more in style than substance. I'd sit down with your daughter and get her imput. The change doesn't have to be a major one. It can be adding in a song or a poem or a special ritual of some sort. It is about changing the overall attitude and feeling and getting away from the power struggle you are caught in togetether by giving her more of a sense of control.

It sounds to me like the sleeping situation needs to change. If it isn't working it is time to change something. It seems like you would be okay with her being tired as long as she doesn't act tired (maybe not how you really feel but that is how it is coming across here). If she's waking up everyone and waking up herself maybe it is time to consider a new sleeping arrangment.

The bedtime issue is SUCH a small part of it. She DOES go to bed. She is fine with the routine. She is fine with the sleeping situation. I am fine with her being TIRED. It was just an example. I've talked to her about her own bed or sleeping on a mattress on the floor and she says she really isn't ready to leave our bed. I believe her and do not want her to feel that we are kicking her out of bed because she isn't acting exactly the way we want her to.

The problem, as I keep saying, is that she backtalks and says not very nice things ALONG THE WAY and contradicts anything I say. When it is time to do something (go to bed, eat, get dressed, get up, pick up toys, practice her violin, etc.) she won't do them WITHOUT being sassy about it. I want to teach her that speaking so meanly will not make her any friends.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
At the heart of it do you believe she's a good kid and wants to be behave well and get along? If so, how can something be changed to allow her to be the good kid she wants to be?

I don't like labeling kids "good" or "bad". She is a smart, empathetic, happy child... but she is very much the follower and copies what she sees her classmates doing (in spite of the fact that the teacher tells me she is a leader in class, she brings home the worst traits of each child!). She has just started this backtalk and sassing me with a mean voice and my goal is to find the right way to teach her that it is not acceptable... because NATURAL CONSEQUENCES are not working. She is more miserable when I allow nature to take its course. And I have talked until I'm blue in the face and find myself with no other recourse than to say, "Fine, you don't do X, you're not going to play with Y tomorrow." I'm not convinced that threatening is going to work for very long and besides I want her to stop talking like that because it is the RIGHT thing to do, not because if she doesn't she gets privileges taken away.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
How do you respond to that? My response would be "you are right, I can't make you". That's a fact. You can't. Might won't get you there. You can't force another person to sleep.

This is the natural consequence I am talking about. This is where I am saying that not sleeping, eating, getting dressed, etc. is not a viable option anymore because she is MORE miserable when I let nature take its course. I've responded with, "Okay, if you don't sleep, eat, get dressed, you'll be tired, hungry, cold." and leave it at that. The results are worse than if I had "forced" her to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I would suggest that by the time it reaches this point, it isn't really how you handle it from there though. It is about preventing it from reaching that point. If she's not sleeping well the night before she's probably totally overtired at that point and that's why she's cranky.

What happens?

It doesn't "reach" this point. That is what is frustrating me. She is sweet as pie and then when it is time to actually do what needs to be done (start to bed, sit down to eat, get dressed), she starts the smart mouth. She eventually does what needs to be done... it's her attitude doing it. She doesn't talk back ONLY when she is tired.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
It sounds like she's really experiencing a lot of pain with school. Is there anyway to change the environment she's in?

I'm not sure what you mean by pain. She loves it and would be heartbroken to leave school. But we wouldn't change it anyway because it's the only one of its kind in the entire state. But you're right... she started this when she started school and when she's not in school, this is not a problem at all.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My guess from reading Sleepless in America....start earlier....have 5-6 calm connecting activities lasting 20 minutes or so b/f a cue activity, then bed. She sounds overtired. School may be the culprit in that she's a lot more tired and tense than before.

Good book.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Sounds like school's the problem. But other than not having her go to school I can't think of what a solution would be.

It does sound like school is the problem, but if she is not going to be homeschooled once she is out of preschool, I don't think removing her from school is the answer. There will ALWAYS be negative influences when the OP's daughter is in an environment where kids from different households with different parenting styles are present. I don't know how this could be done now or if it can be done at this age, but the OP's DD needs to learn that she doesn't have to act ugly like the ugly-acting kids around her. I've had issues with this before sort of - not with smart mouthing but with my DS wanting to adopt some negative behaviors attitudes from where he's been and it is trying b/c it takes him about a month to readjust and get back to his normal self. I've talked and talked and talked to him about it and at age 9 I can say that for the most part, he is a pretty independent thinker, recognizes when people are being bad examples (his term) for others in school and has consciously determined how he wants to act and how he doesn't.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aywilkes* 
It does sound like school is the problem, but if she is not going to be homeschooled once she is out of preschool, I don't think removing her from school is the answer. There will ALWAYS be negative influences when the OP's daughter is in an environment where kids from different households with different parenting styles are present. I don't know how this could be done now or if it can be done at this age, but the OP's DD needs to learn that she doesn't have to act ugly like the ugly-acting kids around her. I've had issues with this before sort of - not with smart mouthing but with my DS wanting to adopt some negative behaviors attitudes from where he's been and it is trying b/c it takes him about a month to readjust and get back to his normal self. I've talked and talked and talked to him about it and at age 9 I can say that for the most part, he is a pretty independent thinker, recognizes when people are being bad examples (his term) for others in school and has consciously determined how he wants to act and how he doesn't.

EXACTLY!! This is exactly what I'm talking about. How to teach her that what the other kids do (while it DOES get them special, if negative attention) is not a desirable behavior. Also, at this age, the other kids LAUGH when the kids are rude to the teachers. So, she sees these kids being rude and smart-mouthed, then brings it home.

She'll never be homeschooled...we're very committed to her being in this school because it's a language immersion school with International Baccalaureate program.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
The bedtime issue is SUCH a small part of it. She DOES go to bed. She is fine with the routine. She is fine with the sleeping situation. I am fine with her being TIRED.

I think we are talking past each other, but I'll try one more time. To me she sounds really overtired. While it maybe obvious that is the issue at bedtime, overtiredness may be just as much a part of the rest of the negative behavior you are seeing. Kids who are overtired really have the decked stacked against them when it comes to behavior. Any kid who is fighting going to bed and then is restless all night is having a problem with sleep. Yes, I get that she learned the new vocabulary and attitude at school, but the fact that you are seeing it played out at home could be very much linked with tiredness. I agree with the suggestion to read the book Sleepless in America.

What I'm wondering reading your post is what change you would be willing to make. You state over and over again she's sassy, she talks back, she won't cooperate. Okay, you can't change her. What can you do to alter your role in this situation? If you aren't willing to change the routine, the sleeping situation, the school situation, etc. what do you think will change?

How do you think she's feeling when she's sassy or being uncooperative? What is the underlying feeling for her?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I don't like labeling kids "good" or "bad". She is a smart, empathetic, happy child... but she is very much the follower and copies what she sees her classmates doing (in spite of the fact that the teacher tells me she is a leader in class, she brings home the worst traits of each child!).

If this is her personality how do you expect it will get better? Is it worth it to have an IB program if the school environment promotes such negative behavior? I can't remember if someone else already mentioned it but the book Hold On To Your Kids would be a good read for you right now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is the natural consequence I am talking about. This is where I am saying that not sleeping, eating, getting dressed, etc. is not a viable option anymore because she is MORE miserable when I let nature take its course. I've responded with, "Okay, if you don't sleep, eat, get dressed, you'll be tired, hungry, cold." and leave it at that. The results are worse than if I had "forced" her to.

Again, I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. By the time it is to the point that you are telling her "fine then you'll be tired" or threatening "go to sleep or you lose x" it is too late. It is already past the point. With some kids it is nearly impossible to tell they are overtired until they are past the point where there is a lot you can do about it. It has be about changing the routine or the sleep system and anything short of that is trying to put a bandaid on a much bigger problem.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
The problem, as I keep saying, is that she backtalks and says not very nice things ALONG THE WAY and contradicts anything I say. When it is time to do something (go to bed, eat, get dressed, get up, pick up toys, practice her violin, etc.) she won't do them WITHOUT being sassy about it. I want to teach her that speaking so meanly will not make her any friends.

<snip>

She has just started this backtalk and sassing me with a mean voice and my goal is to find the right way to teach her that it is not acceptable... because NATURAL CONSEQUENCES are not working. She is more miserable when I allow nature to take its course. And I have talked until I'm blue in the face and find myself with no other recourse than to say, "Fine, you don't do X, you're not going to play with Y tomorrow." I'm not convinced that threatening is going to work for very long and besides I want her to stop talking like that because it is the RIGHT thing to do, not because if she doesn't she gets privileges taken away.

I don't remember reading if you said you've done this, but how about basically ignoring the attitude? Just give a monotone, matter-of-fact, "I don't appreciate that disrespectful tone. Please speak to me politely. Let's go to bed." and then refuse to discuss the tone with her anymore, and refuse to engage in a discussion about whether you can make her go to bed or not - you obviously cannot force a person to sleep, and you both know that, so it's just an exercise in futility to engage in a discussion about it. She's obviously realized that she has power with her tone, that it bothers you, and is testing out just how far it can go - if you take away the power of it by not reacting to it, it will likely go away quicker (it probably won't go away entirely rigth away, but will likely be over sooner). Then, at times when neither of you are revved up, have a discussion with her about tone of voice and speaking respectfully to people, and how just because some people do things that get laughs, it doesn't mean she should.

In the past 6 months or so I've been addressing tone with my nearly 3-yo, and he gets it - he gets that in our household polite, respectful discussions yield compromise and negotiation, while bossy, harsh tones do not. If he barks an order at me, I say to him something like, "Polite words get better results" and he'll rephrase on his own, or at least knock down the tone, and then I'll gladly do whatever it is (or discuss alternatives) - but I won't respond to a bossy tone. And we do sometimes do recaps at the end of the day if we've had a particularly rough day - and, as usual, he is my painfully accurate mirror and keeps me in check with ME being respectful to HIM, too...sometimes I get a bossy tone or commanding voice, and when he responds back in kind I realize that I cannot expect him to do it if I'm not willing to do the same for him.

I also would second the suggestion to make up some charts with pictures for your routine - like, a bedtime chart, a mealtime chart, etc. so that you both can reference the chart, and it not be your "command" that the 5 minutes is up and it's bedtime, or whatever the situation is.

Hope this helps.

ETA: I'd probably shorten up the bedtime routine, too - an hour is a really long time, and it might be exacerbating things. Our routine, which is bath, teeth, lotion, PJs and 3 or 4 short stories is 30 minutes, max. If it's much more than that DS tends to get distracted and revved up again and it's harder for him to fall asleep. Just a thought.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Thanks 4 of US. I have talked. And talked, and talked and talked and talked to her. When it happens, when it doesn't. I have used every tactic I know to explain to her about using a rude voice. She "GETS IT", too. But when it comes time to do something that she is not 100% on board with, she talks back. And I do tell her that she'll not talk to me like that. Usually I say, "We talk to each other with respect in this house. Now change your attitude and speak nicely." That usually gets another smart response. At that point, I used to let nature run its course and let her be tired, hungry, cold, etc. However now I resort to threats... "If you don't change the way you speak to me and sit down to eat, you won't play with your polly pocket after dinner." And I'm looking for another solution because I don't like using threats.

And please, this is not directed at you, but







about the bedtime issue. I should have never used it as an example. Our bedtime routine is FINE! It's the backtalking along the way that is the issue here. Our routine is literally pajamas, teeth brushing, drink, potty, in bed for books and lights out. The pj's to in-bed is about 5 minutes. We read for up to 30 minutes, but usually more like 20. It's after the lights go out that it takes her an hour to go to sleep... and I have to be there until she goes to sleep. Some nights it can take and hour and a half and she is soooooo obviously tired. (But that's another thread and I really don't mind putting her to sleep because we get some quality cuddle time... I'm all too aware that this will pass soon and I won't have any cuddle time at all.







)


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Hmmmmm......aside from ignoring it and discussing later, or punishing her (which you said you don't want to do), I really can't think of any other way to deal with sass.

Just one last ditch effort on my part







how about COMPLETELY ignoring it, I mean, completely ignoring the attitude and not even _acknowledging_ it with her at all in the "heat of the moment"? Like this?

You: OK, 5 minutes is up, time for bed.
Her: NO! YOU CAN"T MAKE ME!
You: Time for bed, hon.
Her: I WON'T!
You: (head to the bedroom or bathroom or wherever)
Her: YOU'RE MEAN! I WON'T GO TO SLEEP! I HATE YOU!
You: I'll be waiting for you [wherever]. Remember, you feel much better in the morning when you get enough sleep at night.
(ignore subsequent histrionics)

Your tone is pleasant and engaging with her, but ignoring the tone, refusing to engage in the discussion of fairness and not acknowledging her rudeness.

Then again, if you've really done this too (and I mean completely ignoring the tone) and that's when the natural consequence of her not getting enough sleep comes around, I dunno what else to offer. Maybe you'll just have to brace yourself for a rough 2 weeks while she is cranky and overtired, ignoring the rudeness, until she realizes it's not productive and stops it.

Aside from the above, or punishing her, or forcing her to bed (which might in the end be the "gentlest" option if she really gets that overtired), that's all I've got. Maybe someone else has something that works on the tone in particular.


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## gr8fulmom (Jun 27, 2002)

the only other thing I can think of is to refuse to engage her when she is speaking rudely... and then let the natural cponsequences of not doing xyz that shes supposed to do happen... Our kids need us in many ways and sometimes when my kids are talking rudely I will just tell them I don't want to be spoken to like that and I hope they change it soon because I want to be with them... this is basically what I would say to anyone who was speaking rudely to me! HTH


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

My DD (almost 5) has had her days like this . . .sometimes weeks like this . . .since she was about 4.5. She also goes to school but it is NOT due to the children in her classroom. I don't hear them talk like this to each other very often or the teacher ever (I don't think my DD talks like this to the teacher, either).

I have analyzed why, why, why some days are like this and some are not. I keep coming back to the basics-- that she is overtired (even though she sleeps well and goes to bed easily) due to having to do so much growing. In other words, I think it is a developmental stage. If it happens several days in a row then I do an overhaul. I am extremely aware of MY moods with her, how many times I say "no" to her, how gently I am responding to her, how often I ask her to wait . . .I usually start to notice my flaws and realize that she is not the only one who needs an attitude change. I find that the peace I am hoping she has isn't even inside of me (usually I am tired and/or frustrated during those days as well, and then we play off of each other).

So, back to the basics. I try making sure that we are spending real time together-- really connecting. I make sure we have less on our plates (places we have to be). Other things . . .Peaceful music, a sense of order in the house, food being offered even more often, quiet times reading, etc. This is not always easy to accomplish (esp. with my toddler around) but it is the goal. In other words, I TRY to remember not to ask more of my DD when she is overloaded (that is what I see the angry taking coming from), or if I do-- it has to be gentle. It is so easy (for me) to react to her instead of being PROactive and that is always a mistake.

Getting back to the developmental thing-- for example, my DD has suddenly made big leaps in reading and writing. She has been doing both for some time, but recently she has taken them to a new level. So, just like anyone learning a new skill, there is less room/energy for the other areas in life (dealing with frustration!). Is your DD learning/growing in some other way?








to you. I know it is hard, esp. when you are running low on energy.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Thanks once again for the thoughtful posts.

For dd, I am pretty sure it is the influence of her classmates that cause her to seek a reaction from me with her smart mouth. This is her second year at this school. It's a small private, language-immersion school and I think A LOT is required of the kids because they are expected (especially this 2nd year) to drop English at the door and speak only Spanish or French. I have talked to dd about how frustrating it can be to not have the words that she needs to express herself... and that the other kids likely talk like they do because they are frustrated and do not know how to positively direct their emotions. We are bilingual at home with yet a 3rd language... adds to the frustration, I'm sure.

I mean, she now has the vocabulary in English to say anything she wants, and yet at school, she has to find the right words in another language.

So, I am going to try to completely ignore the smart mouth. When there is no tension between us, I will continue to talk to her about the fact that she can use any language she wants at home and there is no reason to feel the need to speak unkindly toward us.

Miz... yes, she is going through a lot developmentally. She is about to move up a level in gymnastics and she's just started reading. Her baba (dh) is really pushing her to speak more Armenian at home because we are about to head overseas to visit family. Yes, there is a lot going on. I appreciate your advice about centering myself emotionally before trying to help dd with her emotions.

All that being said, two days into any break from school and she completely loses the smart mouth. This happened last year, too. But we have to get through this because taking her out of school is not an option.

Thanks everyone!


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi,

I'm coming late to this, but my homeschooled 6 y.o. also has a smart mouth, and what I've figured out is that it gets worse when she's stressed. So, I would suggest that maybe the way school causes her backtalk is that it's stressful, rather than blaming the influence of the other kids (I don't think a behavior that's caused by bad influences would disappear so quickly).

Clearly school is not optional for your family. Is there anything else you could change to reduce her stress level?

I feel your pain about the smart mouth-- it is VERY VERY hard to ignore. FWIW, when I ignored my dd's, it only got worse, but your situation may be quite different.

ZM


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
For dd, I am pretty sure it is the influence of her classmates that cause her to seek a reaction from me with her smart mouth. This is her second year at this school. It's a small private, language-immersion school and I think A LOT is required of the kids because they are expected (especially this 2nd year) to drop English at the door and speak only Spanish or French.

What kind of immersion school is it-- one or two way (AKA "dual-language immersion")? I ask because I myself went to a dual-language immersion school, student-taught at one, and then worked in a bilingual (not immersion-- it was transitional bilingual) program as a bilingual teacher. From my experience, I would say that the level of frustration you are describing is not inherent in the concept of an immersion school. I would question what kind of support the students are receiving.

If she loses this attitude so quickly when not in school, it makes me think even more that it is not peer influence . . I suspect peer influence would take much longer to go away. It COULD be going to school-- any school-- that is simply making her overtired/disconnected to home. Once she has some time to rest and or/reconnect, the issue gets resolved. If this is the case, I would start working on some transitional routines (daily) to help her wind down, get rest (easier said than done!!!!), and reconnect to home right after school.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
What kind of immersion school is it-- one or two way (AKA "dual-language immersion")?

I suppose you'd call it one-way. In the first year (3 year olds), they speak the target language from day 1, but they are not strict about the kids speaking the target language. In the 4 yo and kindy program they are more strict. Starting in grade 1 all subjects are taught in the target language except English Language Arts, which of course is in English. The school goes to 12th grade.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
Okay, I don't have a kid that age yet. So take this for what it's worth.









I will have to respectfully disagree with the pp. I think the natural consequence of being cranky the next day is too far in the future to do any real teaching at your dd's age. Kids (heck, even most adults) have a lot of problems foregoing the immediate payoff for some possible negative consequence in the future. And not getting enough sleep has cumulative effects. It affects decision-making abilities. So, less sleep makes it less likely that she'll be able to make the good decision to go to bed. I think this is a natural consequence that's "too big" to experience at her age.

I would enforce the bedtime. Give her the input in negotiating the routine or the time, like a pp suggested. Then once you have an agreement, stick to it. As for the screaming fits at bedtime, I'd be tempted to say, "wow, you must really be tired to be acting that way. You're obviously not getting enough sleep. I guess bedtime should be a half hour earlier tomorrow."









ITA


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I suppose you'd call it one-way. In the first year (3 year olds), they speak the target language from day 1, but they are not strict about the kids speaking the target language. In the 4 yo and kindy program they are more strict. Starting in grade 1 all subjects are taught in the target language except English Language Arts, which of course is in English. The school goes to 12th grade.

I forgot to ask you about the school's population . . .if it is 50% native speakers of the target language and 50% native speakers of the country's majority/dominant language, then it is still dual-language/2 way immersion. If all or most of the students are not fluent (from home) in the target language, then it is a 1 way.

Anyway, any 1 way OR 2 way immersion program should not be causing the children to have so many difficulties with language that they act out as a result.


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
My DD (almost 5) has had her days like this . . .sometimes weeks like this . . .since she was about 4.5. She also goes to school but it is NOT due to the children in her classroom. I don't hear them talk like this to each other very often or the teacher ever (I don't think my DD talks like this to the teacher, either).

I have analyzed why, why, why some days are like this and some are not. I keep coming back to the basics-- that she is overtired (even though she sleeps well and goes to bed easily) due to having to do so much growing. In other words, I think it is a developmental stage. If it happens several days in a row then I do an overhaul. I am extremely aware of MY moods with her, how many times I say "no" to her, how gently I am responding to her, how often I ask her to wait . . .I usually start to notice my flaws and realize that she is not the only one who needs an attitude change. I find that the peace I am hoping she has isn't even inside of me (usually I am tired and/or frustrated during those days as well, and then we play off of each other).

So, back to the basics. I try making sure that we are spending real time together-- really connecting. I make sure we have less on our plates (places we have to be). Other things . . .Peaceful music, a sense of order in the house, food being offered even more often, quiet times reading, etc. This is not always easy to accomplish (esp. with my toddler around) but it is the goal. In other words, I TRY to remember not to ask more of my DD when she is overloaded (that is what I see the angry taking coming from), or if I do-- it has to be gentle. It is so easy (for me) to react to her instead of being PROactive and that is always a mistake.

Getting back to the developmental thing-- for example, my DD has suddenly made big leaps in reading and writing. She has been doing both for some time, but recently she has taken them to a new level. So, just like anyone learning a new skill, there is less room/energy for the other areas in life (dealing with frustration!). Is your DD learning/growing in some other way?








to you. I know it is hard, esp. when you are running low on energy.

We are dealing with a smart mouth from our 4.5 year old as well and it is driving me bonkers. And he is/will be homeschooled so its not coming form there. I have no advice for you since I came to this forum looking for similar help. just hugs.

Hey Miz!! And congratulations (i just read your siggie)! Woo Hoo!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Thanks 4 of US. I have talked. And talked, and talked and talked and talked to her.

I agree with The4OfUs. Ignore it as much as possible. Frankly, it sounds like you're giving it more attention than it deserves. IF she's actually doing what you ask, then let the tone go.

It's also partly developmental. 5 year olds are discovering the power of words and language. They can be rude. What I do with our son is point out that his tone is rude and then move on.

But you've said several times that you've talked and talked and talked. So quit talking! Practice the part of "How to Talk" where they talk about one word being more effective than many. Maybe even coming up with something like "polite voice please" will help. But she doesn't need more explanations.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I wanted to post our progress on this issue. I've been quickly giving a short response to dd about her smart retorts ("Please use nice words when talking to me." for example) and then letting it go. It's virtually stopped. I mean, in the last 4 or 5 days, she's back to her respectful, loving self. I just wanted to give some encouragement to other parents that it's worth posting things here because you get a lot of good advice. We may not be near geographically, but it does take a village and I appreciate the "village" that has helped me with this issue with my dd. Thanks again!!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I wanted to post our progress on this issue. I've been quickly giving a short response to dd about her smart retorts ("Please use nice words when talking to me." for example) and then letting it go. It's virtually stopped. I mean, in the last 4 or 5 days, she's back to her respectful, loving self. I just wanted to give some encouragement to other parents that it's worth posting things here because you get a lot of good advice. We may not be near geographically, but it does take a village and I appreciate the "village" that has helped me with this issue with my dd. Thanks again!!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so glad things have calmed down for you!

And frankly, if I can be a little selfish, it gives me hope for my own future!


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