# Our Daily Bread



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Okay, I only aspire to bake daily, but anyway! For those of us that bake bread at home, I thought we could share what we're doing (and recipes!) here. You can never have to many threads about good eating, right? 

Today I'm working on a bacon pain d'epi. Pain d'epi is our favorite basic loaf, and when I came across this recipe that added bacon I was ecstatic! I wish I had some of my home made bacon to put in it, but I'm doing it today with store bought since I haven't smoked a pork belly in awhile (another thing I need to start doing again). It makes six small loaves, so I think I'm going to do three of them with bacon and three plain, just so I can see how I like it. And I'm already thinking of ways to further customize it - maybe next time I'll add sun dried tomatoes and olives and herbs - I'm thinking that would be an excellent breakfast loaf to serve with an omelette.

Anyone else doing some interesting bread?


----------



## llwr (Feb 24, 2009)

Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=43&gs_id=1v&xhr=t&q=artisan+bread+in+five+minutes+a+day+healthy+bread&pq=artisan+bread+in+five+minutes+a+day&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1920&bih=825&wrapid=tljp1320694119561212&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7898333404751391294&sa=X&ei=aTG4Tu-HEs_gsQKVo_TrDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ8wIwBA#

I love that this takes so little work. There's still losts of rising, baking time, but the actual time YOU spend is so small. And it tastes good!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I keep seeing people mention that book all over the place. I may need to see if the library has it. Though I am pretty partial to the River Cottage Bread Handbook myself. Which recipes have you made from the Healthy Bread book that you like?

I'm doing another pain d'epi today. The last one I made turned out so well - literally the best bread I've ever made. I'm only splitting the dough into two loaves today though, instead of six small ones. And I think I'm going to do the sun dried tomatoes and olives with the bacon in one, and leave the other plain.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, probably not too interesting, but yesterday I made a basic French loaf with white flour for the first time in ages. I usually make whole wheat bread, but DD likes white, so I decided to treat her.

Now today's loaf is a basic whole wheat because we're running out. I've been wanting to make the challah that zinemama mentioned in the other thread, so I think I will try that next.

The pain d'epi looks good, thanks for the link.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

We use the 5 Minute Artisan method, too.

Not making anything too special, but went on a dough mixing blitz Friday and froze 3 loaves sammich bread, 2 of Boule which will probably be baked as pita or pizza crust, maybe rolls, have 2 boule in the fridge for the week, baked 1 loaf sammich bread, mixed pie crust, tortilla dough, and oatmeal cookies-- double batches of everything!

I am finding big batch mixing and storing to be most efficient for providing all our bread in house. Also been "soaking" everything, or letting it sit mixed at least overnight and getting good results from that.

Time to re-up the flour supply!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I finally remembered to buy more bread flour, but I didn't get to do any baking today since we went to the farmers market in the morning and I had my book club in the afternoon. I need to start freezing dough too - it would be great to just pull some out of the freezer for fresh bread.

Tomorrow I'm going to do more pain d'epi. I'm still playing with portioning the dough for that recipe. I didn't like just the two loaves I did from it, and six loaves makes them a bit too small, so I think I'm going to portion into four this time and see how I like that. Hopefully it will be the perfect balance. And I'm probably going to do them all with bacon. If I have the time, I'd like to do some focaccia too, though I'm also doing dozens of cookies tomorrow as well. The oven is going to be on overdrive!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Well, I remembered to buy bread flour but not yeast. And my new sourdough starter isn't ready to use. Fail.


----------



## mcoreen (Feb 23, 2010)

I. Love pizza buns! Just roll out French bread dough, spread with your fab sauce, sprinkle with cheese. I add dried chorizo ( my new fab pizza meat) too. Roll , cut & let rise like you would with cinnamon. Buns


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Baked oatmeal cookies yesterday! Mixed up a double batch and portioned it into quarters wrapped in the fridge--6 big cookies is perfect for my family to have a sweet treat but not pig out, you know?

Loving my premixed doughs this week!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mcoreen*
> 
> I. Love pizza buns! Just roll out French bread dough, spread with your fab sauce, sprinkle with cheese. I add dried chorizo ( my new fab pizza meat) too. Roll , cut & let rise like you would with cinnamon. Buns


I have to try this - it sounds good! So glad I started this thread. 

I finally got the store and got more yeast, so hopefully tomorrow I'll get some bread going!


----------



## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

I have been baking bread for so long that I don't often use recipes any more but lately adding any leftover mashed potatoes I have in the fridge has been making yummy, lofty loaves.


----------



## OliveJewel (Feb 7, 2008)

I am stubborn about baking only 100% whole wheat, but I have yet to perfect it. Never light enough for our tastes. I have used ascorbic acid, and I think that helps a little. Also adding liquid whey seems to help too. Maybe I will try the mashed potatoes and see what that does. I have made 100% WW pita that is outstanding using a poolish. And my 100% WW pizza dough seems pretty good. The sandwich bread needs some help though. I *know* the perfect loaf exists, I just have to keep trying!


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Ugh. For the first time this fall, I've run into my biggest challenge - finding a warm place to let it rise. We keep the house on the cool side (about 65 F), so there really aren't any warm spots anywhere. I usually use the oven for rising dough, but today I have beans baking - and they take a long time to cook. Earlier, I set the dough in a heavy Dutch oven at the back of the stovetop and hoped for the best. But after the letting the first rise last for over 2 hours, it was just a sad, sticky mess. I've just deflated it and left it for a second rise. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I suppose it's my own fault for not getting up early and baking the bread BEFORE I needed the oven for the beans. Sigh.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> Ugh. For the first time this fall, I've run into my biggest challenge - finding a warm place to let it rise. We keep the house on the cool side (about 65 F), so there really aren't any warm spots anywhere. I usually use the oven for rising dough, but today I have beans baking - and they take a long time to cook. Earlier, I set the dough in a heavy Dutch oven at the back of the stovetop and hoped for the best. But after the letting the first rise last for over 2 hours, it was just a sad, sticky mess. I've just deflated it and left it for a second rise. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
> 
> I suppose it's my own fault for not getting up early and baking the bread BEFORE I needed the oven for the beans. Sigh.


What about on top of the fridge? Though nowadays most are built-ins and that doesn't work for most people. Strange that built-in fridges are a basically a relic of our childhoods now.


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OliveJewel*
> 
> I am stubborn about baking only 100% whole wheat, but I have yet to perfect it. Never light enough for our tastes. I have used ascorbic acid, and I think that helps a little. Also adding liquid whey seems to help too. Maybe I will try the mashed potatoes and see what that does. I have made 100% WW pita that is outstanding using a poolish. And my 100% WW pizza dough seems pretty good. The sandwich bread needs some help though. I *know* the perfect loaf exists, I just have to keep trying!


I remember reading this somewhere, although I've never tried it... with WW flour, you need a considerably longer kneading time to develop the gluten and a longer rising time, since the dough is heavier. Also, using WW flour, you don't want to keep adding flour until it's not sticky like you would with white, you want the dough to be sticky, or else it has too much flour in it. Which means kneading it in a bowl, with wet or greased hands, a wooden spoon or a bowl scraper. Supposedly it is possible to get a lighter loaf with just WW, but those were the authors big tricks to doing so. HTH

I'm wondering what recipes you ladies have luck freezing dough with. I would love to do some of that for my pp period. I haven't made bread in ages, but I grew up baking it weekly with my mom. My big problem is that I suck at remembering to defrost.

As for rising in a cooler house, it can be done, you can even let it rise in the fridge, which is WAY colder than you keep your house. It just takes a LOT longer. Some other good spots are on a tv tray over a heater vent, on top of the television or computer (screen if you have an old fashioned one, CPU if not - us Mac people are out of luck with this one). I know both my cable box and the XBOX get pretty darn warm, so a cooling rack placed on top of them (to allow air circulation), with the bowl on that could also work. Also, I'd go with a non-plastic bowl if using any of these, since you want the heat conducted. If you have a lamp with an incandescent bulb, get it near that. Or I stick mine in the dehydrator. I never have luck using the oven for it.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, it turned out okay. Not the best loaf, but not a failure. It was a little dense but it did rise on the second and final risings and during baking so it wasn't a brick. DH actually prefers a denser bread, so he thought it was good.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've tried many of them.

On top of the fridge - I think our kitchen is too drafty. Everyone uses the kitchen door to enter/exit the house because it leads right onto the driveway. I've never had much success with this spot.

Heating vents - I used this before we got a dog, but he loves bread dough and sneaks his way to the bowl if I leave it on a vent. If I close off the room, he'll paw and scratch at the door. I learned the hard way. I had to throw out a big bowl of licked and slobbered dough, and was grateful that he didn't actually eat any and need a trip to the vet. I imagine that rising dough creates a bad GI obstruction.

Yep, I use a Mac laptop. Our t.v. is a flat screen and the components are tucked into a shelving unit. All good ideas though, thanks again.


----------



## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

When we lived in a cold, drafty house I would turn on the oven for just a few minutes of the preheat cycle and then turn it off again when it was about 100 degrees F. Then I would pop the bowl of covered dough in the oven to let it rise. The oven was only on for a couple of minutes and so didn't use a ton of electricity and it made the dough rise perfectly.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shantimama*
> 
> When we lived in a cold, drafty house I would turn on the oven for just a few minutes of the preheat cycle and then turn it off again when it was about 100 degrees F. Then I would pop the bowl of covered dough in the oven to let it rise. The oven was only on for a couple of minutes and so didn't use a ton of electricity and it made the dough rise perfectly.


Yes, the oven is definitely the best spot in this house. Sometimes I just wish we had two ovens, since it's a challenge if I want fresh bread AND anything else baked or roasted. I had hoped that the back of the stovetop would be warm enough while the beans were baking, but the drafts must have been too much even for the heavy dutch oven.

I made zinemama's challah today and it turned out yummy. I posted in her thread about it, with a note about the recipe, if anyone is interested.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> Well, it turned out okay. Not the best loaf, but not a failure. It was a little dense but it did rise on the second and final risings and during baking so it wasn't a brick. DH actually prefers a denser bread, so he thought it was good.
> 
> ...


Have you tried rising in an oiled bowl covered with a kitchen towel on top of the stove while your oven is running for other things? I'm rising a loaf of half rye just now while chocolate chip cookies bake, and it's rising in record time. I also use a heated bowl to rise in - just rinse it with the hottest water you can stand to warm it, then wipe the water out well.

I hope my half rye turns out. I love the pain d'epi recipe so much I want to make it my house bread, so I've decided to try using it in all the kinds of bread we like. I've substituted half of the bread flour with dark rye. I'm thinking I'll just shape it into four basic batons. It's on the first rise now, and I'll let it go another rise, and maybe a third if I've got the time. I really want to develop the gluten and flavor. I wanted to do five rises on it (since rye is so dense) but I didn't make the time to get it going this morning. Oh well, I'll let everyone know how it turns out.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

I LOVE using the 5MAB Boule dough for pizza! Last night I baked a sauceless pizza with thin sliced purple potatoes, mushrooms, arugula, sliced garlic andred pepper and mozzarella! Yum! So good we are making it again tonight with previously frozen dough.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> Have you tried rising in an oiled bowl covered with a kitchen towel on top of the stove while your oven is running for other things? I'm rising a loaf of half rye just now while chocolate chip cookies bake, and it's rising in record time. I also use a heated bowl to rise in - just rinse it with the hottest water you can stand to warm it, then wipe the water out well.
> 
> I hope my half rye turns out. I love the pain d'epi recipe so much I want to make it my house bread, so I've decided to try using it in all the kinds of bread we like. I've substituted half of the bread flour with dark rye. I'm thinking I'll just shape it into four basic batons. It's on the first rise now, and I'll let it go another rise, and maybe a third if I've got the time. I really want to develop the gluten and flavor. I wanted to do five rises on it (since rye is so dense) but I didn't make the time to get it going this morning. Oh well, I'll let everyone know how it turns out.


The loaf that I was worried about when I posted was set to rise on the back of the stovetop, in a heavy Dutch oven. I think I was upset because I really hoped that spot would work - it seemed warm enough. I warmed up the Dutch oven too. I think it's the same problem as the top of the refrigerator - it's drafty, so the temperature is inconsistent. It's a small kitchen and the stove is only a few feet from the door outside to the driveway. It's in a direct line of fire for the initial blast of cold whenever the door is opened.

I'm debating whether to buy an electric blanket, but I'd prefer a more energy-efficient, greener solution. After all, one of the causal factors for this situation is our decision to keep the thermostat low.

We've only lived in this house a couple of years, so it's only been a couple of winters that I've had to deal with this challenge. I'll mostly just avoid the problem by baking bread earlier in the day. Or maybe I'll finally give the no-knead bread a try, I've had the recipe for ages.

I hope the rye bread worked out, it sounds delicious. My kids aren't fond of rye, so I don't use it, but I like it. Their idea of a treat is a nice loaf of plain white bread, because they get it so rarely, lol!


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

How about some of the tricks for keeping fermenting yogurt warm? If you have an ice chest big enough to hold your bowl (or can improvise something other than a bowl), a few jars of boiling water set in the bottom of the ice chest around the bowl, close the lid and walk away. A heating pad under the bowl, wrapping the whole thing in a towel. Or if you have a microwave, a rice heating pad heated in the microwave a few minutes set under the bowl and wrapped in a towel uses less electricity. I spent years trying to figure these things out for this freezing house, since we only had central heat installed last spring, after 12 years in the house. Winter was always interesting.

Don't suppose you have a fireplace?


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> How about some of the tricks for keeping fermenting yogurt warm? If you have an ice chest big enough to hold your bowl (or can improvise something other than a bowl), a few jars of boiling water set in the bottom of the ice chest around the bowl, close the lid and walk away. A heating pad under the bowl, wrapping the whole thing in a towel. Or if you have a microwave, a rice heating pad heated in the microwave a few minutes set under the bowl and wrapped in a towel uses less electricity. I spent years trying to figure these things out for this freezing house, since we only had central heat installed last spring, after 12 years in the house. Winter was always interesting.
> 
> Don't suppose you have a fireplace?


Funny, my last couple of batches of yoghurt turned out badly too...... In the summer, I just let it sit, wrapped in heavy towels, on the counter overnight. At least I can move my yoghurt-making into the oven overnight without any competing demands for the space.

The ice chest is a good idea. I have a Coleman cooler, although right now it holds the overflow of pantry goods - different sacs of flour and cornmeal and oats etc. I can empty it out and try to find a different place for them. Again, it's the curse of the tiny kitchen







.

We do have a fireplace, but we don't use it because it doesn't have a screen and we don't have the "utensils". When we moved in, I thought we'd be here for one winter, so we didn't bother buying all that stuff. Now that we are likely to be here for another one, I think I can justify getting them, right? I love sitting in front of a good fire during the winter. (Must remember to check the chimney first!)

Thanks for all of the suggestions!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> The loaf that I was worried about when I posted was set to rise on the back of the stovetop, in a heavy Dutch oven. I think I was upset because I really hoped that spot would work - it seemed warm enough. I warmed up the Dutch oven too. I think it's the same problem as the top of the refrigerator - it's drafty, so the temperature is inconsistent. It's a small kitchen and the stove is only a few feet from the door outside to the driveway. It's in a direct line of fire for the initial blast of cold whenever the door is opened.
> 
> ...


Meh, that sucks. Instead of buying an electric blanket, do you have a heating pad? Or maybe just use some warm towels straight from the dryer?

The rye was amazing. I'm just loving this base recipe I'm using now. I feel like I can do anything with it. It didn't turn out overwhelmingly of rye since I cut it with half white flour so it would get a good rise. It was soft and amazing - I think it'll be great for sandwiches. I just love ham and spicy mustard on rye bread. The only thing I'll add to it next time will be some caraway - it needed a little kick, and I think caraway is just the ticket.

Today I've got to do the pumpkin crescent dinner rolls. I never did a trial run on them, so hopefully they turn out well since that's the dinner roll I plan on serving tomorrow for Thanksgiving. If not, I suppose I could do my stand by bread and just shape into rolls. I've got pies going currently - did a chocolate icebox and just pulled pumpkin out of the oven. After lunch I've got to put a shoofly in, then the oven will be free for the rolls.


----------



## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

I use this recipe. It is a simple recipe that takes almost no time from our days. We can make bread daily, or every other day, or several times a day. Four ingredients and no kneading: it's perfect for a family as busy as we are.

Oh, and because it sits for days, it has a mild sourdough flavor and never has trouble raising (a problem we have here, as well).


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I decided to try a new recipe for a holiday bread each week leading up to Christmas. This week it was Finnish Pulla.

I wasn't entirely happy with the results, although the cardamom flavour was awesome. I would be happy to post the recipe (which I clipped from a magazine many years ago, but never tried) if anyone wants it. I'm hoping someone has a "tried and true" version that they'd be willing to share instead. I'm pretty sure I know what to tweak in the recipe I have, but I'd rather spend my time on something more reliable. Thanks!!

Next, if I can find dried pears, I'm going to make Swiss Birnbrot.


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Well, what's Pulla and what makes it different? What didn't you care for about it?

I have a Cardamom bread recipe that I've used with good results before. It's a holiday bread, but I want to say it's Easter and not Christmas, although I may be mistaken. I'll double check.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> Well, what's Pulla and what makes it different? What didn't you care for about it?
> 
> I have a Cardamom bread recipe that I've used with good results before. It's a holiday bread, but I want to say it's Easter and not Christmas, although I may be mistaken. I'll double check.


Thanks for responding







. Pulla is a sweet bread similar to brioche, with milk, eggs, and butter in the dough, and flavoured with cardamom. I was hoping that someone would offer up great-grandma's tested and true recipe. I have not been to Finland, so it may be popular at Easter, but the recipe I have talks about Christmas. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a popular treat anytime of year in Finland, it's certainly tasty enough.

The recipe I used was out of a magazine, and it had a very short first rise. I was a little suspicious, but decided to follow the directions anyway. The loaf was a little heavy and the crumb wasn't very good, at least, not compared to a brioche, which is what I was expecting.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Let's see . . . Mixed up my firSt batch of rye (half rye I guess tho I thought all rye had some wheat in it so it would rise?), used warm leftover coffee for the liquid in the recipe and caraway seeds . . .yum! Very wet dough, though I used my regular recipe just subbing the rye flour and coffee, not sure why so wet.

Made half into a peasant loaf for dinner night before last and then the rest into hamburger buns tonight-- my first rolls/buns! I have to say, I really like rye for buns! Because the dough was so moist, I think I shoulda baked slower and lower as they were a little doughy in middle, rose up real nice, though!

So I managed to score local AP flour for 25# for $12! Can you believe it? Not organic or ww, but still, local flour cheap! I am figuring out how to cut in some bran/germ and maybe sunflower seeds ground to kinda lift up the nutritional profile, and I will supplement that big supply with organic whole wheat when I mx up recipes. Without counting the cost of yeast or salt, it will be $1.50 for four 2.5# loaves based on the recipe I use now. Take that, Oroweat!

I don't need to mix up dough for a little while since I still ave my freezer stash of sammich loaves ready to thaw and rise. Which is goid coz I'm plenty busy right now. For me, I really think the most sustainable way to f it baking all our bread products into my life is to have a major date with my mixer 1-2x/month and then store/freeze everything til needed. I am definitely going to try to keep a stash of cookies and sammich loaves nd one round for piza at all times, what a life saver


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

CMH - not all rye has wheat in it. Russian black bread/dark rye when made traditionally is made with a rye starter with all dark rye flour. It's a very heavy dense bread, unlike anything you'll find in a regular grocery store. I love it. Nothing else compares.

OOF - I was wrong, it is in fact a Xmas loaf. Called Swedish Cardamom Wreath, although I believe I just made a braided loaf last time - I don't like dealing with storing wreaths. I'm going to abbreviate the steps, since i don't feel like typing out the whole thing (half a page).

1 pkg yeast

1/4 c warm water

2 1/2 c warm milk

3/4 c butter, melted and cooled

1 egg

1/2 tsp salt

1 c sugar

1 1/2 tsp ground cardamom (IMO, I easily could have used 2 tsp or more, this was a little subtler than I wanted)

7-7.5 c AP flour

Dissolve yeast in water. Add milk, butter, egg, salt, sugar and cardamom. Gradually beat in about 7 c of flour to stiff dough. Knead until smooth and satiny (10-20 min). Turn in a greased bowl, cover and rise until doubled (2 hours). Punch down and divide into 6. Roll into 24 inch ropes, braid 3 into a loaf or wreath. Repeat for 2nd loaf. Cover and rise until almost doubled (40 min).

Bake 350 35-40 minutes or until med brown. Cool 10 minutes.

The recipe also calls for a sugar icing and decorating with candied cherries, but IMO that's overkill. It's a really soft loaf, makes a great french toast.

If you're testing holiday recipes - my fave book has an entire section on them. Yugoslavian Potica, Czech Houska, Russian Krendl, Belgian Cramique, German Stollen, Greek Christopomo and the Swedish Cardamom - and that's just the Xmas ones. Let me know if you want recipes.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I've just got some rye bread rising today. It's on the third rise, so I'm going to shape into a loaves in a bit and get it into the oven so it's ready to go with dinner. I forgot I wanted to add some caraway to it this time though... maybe I'll just sprinkle some on the top of the loaves as a garnish...


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> OOF - I was wrong, it is in fact a Xmas loaf. Called Swedish Cardamom Wreath, although I believe I just made a braided loaf last time - I don't like dealing with storing wreaths. I'm going to abbreviate the steps, since i don't feel like typing out the whole thing (half a page).
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post the recipe! The ingredient list is similar to the one I have, but slightly different proportions (I used less butter, more egg) and the rise times are different. I was very suspicious when I made it, because of course it failed the finger-poke test after the first rise. The recipe reassured me that it would be fine, that a short rise was all that was needed. I should have listened to my instincts. I also wondered about whether to add the butter at a later point. The magazine recipe also added the milk, butter and egg at the same time. I thought adding the butter separately, like a brioche, might make a difference to the final result. It looks like that isn't necessary for a nice loaf. Next time I try, I'll use your recipe.

Thanks also for your kind offer of other recipes, but I think I'm okay. I'm making Stollen this week. Next week is Birnbrot, a Swiss bread with a dried fruit filling in the middle instead of marzipan and then Danish Kringle the week of Christmas. With the regular loaves I need to bake, that should keep me busy enough. Maybe next year!!


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.


I had a starter, generously shared by a friend. I failed to tend it though. The guilt







!! I like sourdough though, especially for sandwiches, yum!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> I had a starter, generously shared by a friend. I failed to tend it though. The guilt
> 
> ...


Same here... my most recent one perished a few weeks before Thanksgiving. And then I went out and bough a bulk package of instant yeast.


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.


Not currently, although I have in the past. I used to bake sourdough twice a week, it was the only bread I ate. Of course, that also meant that I gained weight like mad, since it was the basis of my diet.









I've considered starting a rye sourdough, I even have the whole rye that is needed for it. But I haven't done it. It's just a big time commitment, and I'm lazy.


----------



## majoie (Nov 13, 2010)

Oh so many years ago I made a sourdough starter from a recipe in my Betty Crocker cookbook. Other folks had said how good sourdough was; but at that point I don't think I had ever tasted it. So after several days of doing what I was supposed to do, the "starter" got a liquid on top that looked and smelled somewhat like beer. Apparently that is what it is supposed to do. Coming from a family that didn't drink at all, I thought it had spoiled and threw it out. Duh. I haven't tried it since. I do like the recipe for all whole wheat in the Healthy Bread in 5 minutes a day book. I haven't tried many others. After the first rise at room temp it does a slow rise in the fridge which really helps in developing a good flavor. I think speeding up the rise by keeping the dough very warm tends to "flatten out" the flavor. Sorry I can't think of a better description. I would say if possible leave a lot of time for a cooler rise and make sure it is risen as it should be even if it takes much longer than the recipe says.


----------



## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> 1 1/2 tsp ground cardamom (IMO, I easily could have used 2 tsp or more, this was a little subtler than I wanted)


Ok, replying to my own post here... I made this bread yesterday, baked it off this morning. Next time I'll boost the cardamom to 2.5 tsp or maybe a full Tbs. I did 2 tsp in this one (and 1 tsp was fresh ground in my mortar and pestle), and it was still too subtle for me. The problem is finding the balance between flavor and overkill, since cardamom can be aggressive. This is a super tender loaf, and I'll warn you to keep an eye on it. I set my timer for 30 minutes, it went about 32 before I could get to it, and it was a bit overbrown for my taste - it probably could have used a few more minutes to cook some more (it's not underdone, but still a bit moist), but maybe I'll cover it for the last few minutes next time.

What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas. We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve. But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning. Just not sure how to manage that. I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th. I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing? It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk). Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking?


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas. We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve. But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning. Just not sure how to manage that. I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th. I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing? It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk). Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking?


You can't really overproof bread. Actually, the more you proof, the better the flavor and texture will be. When I have the time, I like to set my bread for five rises. Seems excessive, but they're really great loaves when I can do it. Also, you can do a long and slow proof in cool temps or the fridge. So if you mix it up on the 23rd and give it a regular warm rise or two and then stick it in the fridge it should be fine until the evening of the 24th when you return. Take it out before you go to bed to shape the loaf and stick it back in the fridge for a long and slow final proof in the fridge. Take it out first thing on Christmas morning, let it come up to room temp and then bake. It should work out just fine.

I'm thinking of attempting this method with risen cinnamon rolls myself, since we have similar travel arrangements this year.

ETA - or if you have time on the 23rd, you could parbake and freeze your loaf. Just bake it to within ten minutes or so of being done. Let it cool to room temp and freeze. When you get home on the 24th, put in the fridge to defrost overnight and then bake it for the ten minutes or so it needs Christmas morning. Parbaking makes it easier to freeze, and it won't overbake when you warm it in the oven before serving. I did this with dinner rolls at Thanksgiving and they were great.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> Ok, replying to my own post here... I made this bread yesterday, baked it off this morning. Next time I'll boost the cardamom to 2.5 tsp or maybe a full Tbs.


The Finnish recipe that I originally tried used 1 tsp. of cardamom for 2 cups flour. It made one small loaf (another knock against that recipe). The flavour was excellent though, well-developed and fully present without being overpowering, if you know what I mean. So for 2 good-sized loaves, a little more than 2 teaspoons of spice sounds about right.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas. We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve. But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning. Just not sure how to manage that. I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th. I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing? It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk). Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking?


Could you freeze the loaves, transport them in a cooler (if you have room) and then let them thaw so they can go in the oven on the 25th? I have not tried this, but I recall a post about it on the 101 Cookbooks blog last year. She did it successfully for cinnamon rolls. She prepped the rolls, placed them in freezer bags with all the air squeezed out, and froze them ahead of Christmas. On Christmas Eve, she let them thaw overnight on the countertop and then baked them off in the morning for Christmas brunch. I did make the cinnamon rolls without the freezing step and they are tasty.


----------



## majoie (Nov 13, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OliveJewel*
> 
> I am stubborn about baking only 100% whole wheat, but I have yet to perfect it. Never light enough for our tastes. I have used ascorbic acid, and I think that helps a little. Also adding liquid whey seems to help too. Maybe I will try the mashed potatoes and see what that does. *I have made 100% WW pita that is outstanding using a poolish*. And my *100% WW pizza dough seems pretty good.* The sandwich bread needs some help though. I *know* the perfect loaf exists, I just have to keep trying!


Recipes please!


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

No Knead Bread...it's awesome!

The past two weeks have been kind of brutal, so I haven't made any more Christmas breads. An unexpected funeral, a last-minute trip out-of-town, car trouble....all on top of the usual Christmas shopping and social events. I decided it was finally time to try out Jim Lahey's No Knead Bread recipe.

I've had the recipe for years, but hesitated for the longest time because I didn't have a good pot to bake it in. Then a few months ago (maybe late summer?), I picked up a knobless Le Creuset casserole on sale at a great price reduction. It doesn't have the phenolic knob handle, so it's safe at the high temperatures needed to bake this bread. After that, my excuses for not trying the recipe are that I like my basic bread recipes and I kind of like to knead dough. So I just didn't get around to trying the No Knead recipe, until this month when I just didn't have time to stay at home and deal with rising bread dough.

Well, I am so pleased with the results! With the first loaf, the crust got a little too dark for my taste. I think my oven may be a little hot, so I've adjusted the timing. Now I'm getting wonderful, tasty loaves with a good crust and crumb.

I'll still make my usual recipes, but now I'll probably bake a loaf of No Knead Bread once a week or so.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Reviving this thread because I tried a new, very convenient recipe for a Whole Wheat Seed Bread this week. I thought others might be interested. I found it at Rhythm of the Home, Breadmaking for Busy Families by Andrea Belcham.

I'm pretty happy with it. It gets a long rise in the refrigerator (up to 8 or 10 hours), so you don't have to hang around for hours, deflating and waiting for multiple rises. It takes about 45 minutes to mix it up, knead it, give it a short rise for 20 minutes, and then shape it and put it in loaf pans. Let it rise all day (at least 3 or 4 hours - I waited about 7 hours) if you like and then bake it when it's convenient. It makes nice whole wheat loaves, more like a sandwich bread than the No Knead Bread. (I'm still making the No Knead Bread and still loving it too.)


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm thinking about doing some beer bread and a couple of loaves of cinnamon swirl here in a bit... I am so addicted to that cinnamon swirl bread...


----------



## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

This is my first post in this thread and I haven't had a chance to read all the way through...I have a couple of questions.

When I was on mat leave I made all our bread and really enjoyed doing it. But now I'm back at work and have less time. This weekend I made a double batch (enough for 4 loaves) but it was a lot of work! (I think I'm inefficient and kneading! Oh, and out of shape. lol.) So, here are my questions:

If I make a big batch of dough, should I freeze the dough, or bake the bread and freeze it? Which is better? If I freeze the dough, should I freeze it before the first rise, or before the second rise? What should I freeze it in? (I did wax paper then into a ziplock freezer bag).

Is there an easier way?


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nstewart*
> 
> This is my first post in this thread and I haven't had a chance to read all the way through...I have a couple of questions.
> 
> ...


You can freeze either way, but I find I get better results by freezing the baked loaves - but only par-bake them. Take them out of the oven about 10-15 minutes before they're done, let them cool completely, then wrap in either freezer paper or aluminum foil and then put them in zip top bags. Then when you want to eat them, finish baking them for the 10-15 minutes - that way you get fresh warm bread, without chancing over baking it when you heat it up.

As far as efficiency - the more you bake, the more efficient you'll become with kneading and managing the time spent. But recipes do make a difference too - this is one that I like that is really forgiving - it can take being over worked, it can take being neglected, it can take poor kneading... it's really hard to mess up. And you can shape it however you want, add to it however you want - it's a great all purpose dough. Sometimes I cut it with half rye for a light rye loaf, for example.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Let's revive this thread. I've re-instituted Sunday baking at my house because I'm tired of paying money for crap, over processed bread. Last week I did a few sandwich loaves and focaccia. Today I've bacon pain d'epi going, and will be doing some sandwich loaves too. Plus I did a couple of batches of cookies, but that's not bread - Sunday baking is all-inclusive at my house though.

Anyone else baking these days?


----------



## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm on maternity leave again so back to baking all our bread. I just use a whole wheat sandwich loaf recipe and make it with my mixmaster, as needed, with DS1's "help". I am planning on making Monday baking day as it's a good day to stay home and baking is a good activity for my two year old. Tomorrow i plan to do a batch of muffins, probably oatmeal strawberry.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Most of my bread-baking has been boring lately. Basic whole wheat loaves and not much else. I did make a pain d'epi awhile ago and it turned out nicely. It's such a pretty bread to bring to the table at dinner.

I have started a new sourdough chef. It won't be ready for baking for a few days yet. I'll update when I make the first loaf. My last sourdough starter died of neglect in the back of the refrigerator. I hope I'm a little more attentive this time around







.

Other baking - I bought rhubarb at the farmer's market this weekend, as well as lots of strawberries (and asparagus and peas. I went a little overboard with all the gorgeous spring produce). Everyone is asking for a pie, so I think I'll be doing that later today.


----------



## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I used to make a great whole grain bread (if I do say so myself), but haven't in years and can't find the recipe. It used a combination of grains (whole wheat, whole wheat pastry flour, millet and oat), brown rice syrup and barley malt, with a touch of molasses for sweeteners, yeast and rice milk. I was trying to duplicate my aunts' bread, which I *loved* growing up! I hope this information inspires you to try experimenting with different grains and sweeteners. The results can be delicious!

By the way, I don't bake or eat bread anymore because I can't find a yeast that doesn't give me food allergy symptoms. I miss the "good old days", when I was less sensitive. Good luck, all!


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Update: We are enjoying yummy fresh sourdough!









The sourdough starter seems a little weak. The first loaves of bread turned out fairly well but I kinda babied them along every step of the way. They required more flour and adjusting ingredients, more kneading, more rising time and more attention than I typically have to give. I'm hoping that the starter gains some vigour as it matures a little.


----------



## Fortune Teller (Jan 28, 2013)

I have a sourdough starter culture thats been sitting in my fridge for months. I love sourdough bread but I don't eat bread anymore, and the kids don't like it. I should just try it out though, just for fun!

We decided a few months ago to stop buying bread and start making our own. When you pack 3 sandwiches a day for school lunches, we were going through bread really fast! Plus we just want our kids eating something made with love and care at home.

I'm about to go start some loaves now. Now that school is out we haven't had to keep up on it as much, but I want to stay in the routine. I love the smell of baking bread in my house, and I love making bread, even if I don't eat it! We haven't bought bread in 3 months!!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

This past Sunday we were out and about quite a bit and I forgot to get the dough started in the morning, so I ended up making a quick white bread - kind of similar to Irish soda bread, but plainer and used baking powder instead of soda. It's nothing to write home about, but serviceable. And it was a decent breakfast with a generous slather of butter and cinnamon sugar. We'll eat the last of it tomorrow I think.

This weekend I'm going to try my hand at King Arthur's Classic Sandwich Bread. I don't have any loaf pans currently, but it's payday this week and it's high time I bought a new one. It will be $15 well spent.

Something else I keep meaning to share here is my new proofing method - in the crockpot, using the warm setting. It gets far too hot if you leave it on warm for the entire rise, but I finally figured out that if I turn the crockpot on the warm setting for the first ten minutes of the proof, then turn it off it's the perfect way to let the bread rise. And having the lid on the crockpot means I don't have to use plastic wrap or dirty up a kitchen towel. My kitchen is often drafty and I have issues with the rise, so this may be a solution for those that have the same problem.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> Something else I keep meaning to share here is my new proofing method - *in the crockpot*, using the warm setting. It gets far too hot if you leave it on warm for the entire rise, but I finally figured out that if I turn the crockpot on the warm setting for the first ten minutes of the proof, then turn it off it's the perfect way to let the bread rise. And having the lid on the crockpot means I don't have to use plastic wrap or dirty up a kitchen towel. My kitchen is often drafty and I have issues with the rise, so this may be a solution for those that have the same problem.


Ah! Another good reason for me to buy a slow cooker. I've been debating whether to get one since I don't like to buy stuff I don't really need. I have a hunch I would use one a lot.

Mostly, I've been craving pulled pork sandwiches for a long time







. A reliable method for proofing bread dough would be really useful though and a terrific justification for the purchase. Thanks!!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> Ah! Another good reason for me to buy a slow cooker. I've been debating whether to get one since I don't like to buy stuff I don't really need. I have a hunch I would use one a lot.
> 
> ...


They are absolutely worth the money - such an efficient and quick way to get healthy food on the table. Watch for the deals - you can often find the really nice Rival digital ones for as low as $20 this time of year. Glad to be of help!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Someone asked a few pages back about how to get a light whole wheat loaf. Has anyone tried adding porridge to the dough?

I've never added it to a 100% WW loaf, but I've added it to a half-and-half one and it was really light. It makes white bread lighter too. Gives it a really nice soft texture, and the porridge sort of disappears into the dough, so you don't notice its presence. DH and I both like it. I'd do it all the time if I were organised enough to make porridge for the purpose; as it is, I only chuck it in if I've made too much porridge.

I don't do sourdough. I did for a while on two occasions, lured in by Sally Fallon guilt trips and vague Little House on the Prairie fauxstalgia; but both times I eventually admitted I don't really like sourdough. It's OK once in a while, but I don't like it for everyday loaves, and especially not for sweet breads, pizza dough, rolls or other "fancy" breads. Soooo, I gave up.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Subbing.

We made super-lightloaf with soymilk--yeast goes bananas for it. The homemade stuff was amazing. Mostly we used our typical presweetened store stuff. Porridge in the bread makes for light bread, too. Avoid sour ingredients until you get a feel for what works. Acidity can work against you, especially when you are figuring things out.

Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book is still my favorite for 100% whole grain.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Made the King Arthur sandwich bread today. I used soymilk instead of dairy milk since husband and I are both lactose intolerant. And I didn't end up buying a new loaf pan. I have an oval enameled cast iron Dutch oven that's about the same size, so I tried it in that. The dough was a dream to worth with and had a nice rise. The top didn't color up a bit though - I thought it was odd that the recipe baked the bread at 350 straight through, but I always like to try a new recipe as written the first time around. If it's a good loaf otherwise, next time I'll do an egg wash or something and start it at a higher temp so it gets some nice browning on top.

Though not bread, I also baked up some pumpkin muffins today for Sunday baking.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Tell me more about giving WW bread 5 rises? From my sourdough days I recall that you have to feed the dough every few rises, or the yeast kinda runs out and loses its oomph. Is that not true for regular yeast? How many times can you rise one lot of dough before the yeast gives out? Do you use more yeast than usual at the start, or add some more between rises, or...?

DH and I are going off white sugar and flour for a while to slim down, so I'm tackling a 100% WW loaf today. Nothing fancy, just storebought wholemeal flour - some of it scraped off the kitchen floor where DS upended the whole packet (sigh). I made porridge for breakfast and will add it in - it's a little over a cup - and after a bit of googling, I'll also attempt to keep it light by doing a long, fold-and-stretch knead, keeping the dough tacky, adding an egg to the mix, making a poolish, adding the salt late in the kneading process, and giving it at least 3 rises.

A lot of people recommended adding vital wheat gluten too, but I'm out of it. I'll go and get some only if I can be bothered, which is not looking likely right now. I

If you add kibbled grains to the dough, when do you guys add it? Do you soak them first? I used to put grains in bread, but it's been a while and I can't remember how I did it!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Tell me more about giving WW bread 5 rises? From my sourdough days I recall that you have to feed the dough every few rises, or the yeast kinda runs out and loses its oomph. Is that not true for regular yeast? How many times can you rise one lot of dough before the yeast gives out? Do you use more yeast than usual at the start, or add some more between rises, or...?


I've never even tried a 100% whole wheat bread because of it's density; I've only ever done 50% white/50% other. I've never read anything about feeding the dough in between rises, though that's interesting and you bring up a good point about the longevity of the yeast in relation to it's "food supply". At some point, all of the sugar will be consumed and there will be nothing left for it to eat, thus no more rising. I'm going to have to research this - fortunately, I just found my copy of McGee in storage at my in laws, so I'm fully reunited with my reference cookbooks. What I have read on the multiple proofing practice is that it's more about developing flavor than anything else - and I've found that we do prefer the taste of loaves risen multiple times as opposed to just twice.

If you try it, let us know how it turns out.

And now I have a question for everyone.  The loaf I made in the enameled cast iron turned out really well, so I'm going to keep working the recipe until I perfect it. The only real issue is that the loaf stuck pretty good to the sides of the pan. I was able to pry it out mostly intact with an icing knife, but it wasn't dinner-guest-worthy by a long shot (not that I ever have those, but still). Should I oil or butter the pan before I put the dough in? I think I've heard that's not recommended because the dough won't have the traction to "climb" the sides of the pan as it bakes in the oven, but what do you guys think?


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

What I usually do is oil or butter the pan (olive oil, usually) and then give it a good coating with sesame seeds or fine or coarse cornmeal, and sometimes a bit of rock salt. It always seems to climb fine and the dry ingredients make it much more non-stick than oil alone. I'd never noticed a problem with rising; I get nice high loaves (unless I'm lazy and don't rise it enough, but that's a different issue!) If you think about it, one usually rises dough in an oiled bowl and it climbs quite happily in there, so maybe it's a non-issue? I can't imagine baking in a cast iron pan without greasing, unless it was super-well-seasoned; bread likes to stick.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> What I usually do is oil or butter the pan (olive oil, usually) and then give it a good coating with sesame seeds or fine or coarse cornmeal, and sometimes a bit of rock salt. It always seems to climb fine and the dry ingredients make it much more non-stick than oil alone. I'd never noticed a problem with rising; I get nice high loaves (unless I'm lazy and don't rise it enough, but that's a different issue!) If you think about it, one usually rises dough in an oiled bowl and it climbs quite happily in there, so maybe it's a non-issue? I can't imagine baking in a cast iron pan without greasing, unless it was super-well-seasoned; bread likes to stick.


Good points. Okay, I'm going to give it a try for the next baking. Incidentally I won't be doing a traditional bread baking this Sunday upcoming since we're headed on vacation. But next next Sunday for sure. And I like the idea of dusting with something - maybe I will try a light dusting of corn meal.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Fine cornmeal is really nice dusted on the tray when you make white burger buns (I dust it over the tops as well, with rock salt.) Coarse cornmeal goes well with pumpkin bread. I've used poppy seeds and sunflower seeds in the past, too. It isn't appropriate for every kind of loaf, but it's yummy when it works.

DH got me some vital wheat gluten, so I should start kneading, but I'm sewing and have a cold and bah... maybe later.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> And now I have a question for everyone.  The loaf I made in the enameled cast iron turned out really well, so I'm going to keep working the recipe until I perfect it. The only real issue is that the loaf stuck pretty good to the sides of the pan. I was able to pry it out mostly intact with an icing knife, but it wasn't dinner-guest-worthy by a long shot (not that I ever have those, but still). Should I oil or butter the pan before I put the dough in? I think I've heard that's not recommended because the dough won't have the traction to "climb" the sides of the pan as it bakes in the oven, but what do you guys think?


The only time I've baked bread in enameled cast iron, it's the No Knead recipe. For that recipe, I turn out the dough onto parchment paper and place the paper and the dough into the pre-heated Dutch oven, cover it with the lid and bake. The parchment paper works well.

I think the oil/cornmeal suggestion would work too.


----------



## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

Has anyone tried baking bread (or anything else) in a counter top oven (like the big turkey roasters)? The weather has gotten very hot and so I want to minimize using my stove and could plug it in outside. We have a very old grill/bbq so I don't trust using that as I don't think it will maintain a steady temp.

Thanks!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I haven't tried a counter top oven, but summer always makes me want a brick outdoor oven. When we buy a house I will have one!

In the chaos of unpacking and getting settled from vacation, I completely forgot to start bread dough this morning. I'll be baking some pumpkin muffins and brownies after sundown when it hopefully cools off a bit, so maybe I'll do a quick loaf of white bread too.


----------



## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

It's supposed to be hot again later in the week, so I'll venture to use the countertop oven and see how it turns out and let you all know! A brick oven sounds pretty amazing!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

People! People, people, people! Everybody! I just discovered the most awesome thing ever. I got it off Pinterest. Baking a loaf in a preheated Dutch oven. Anyone done it?

I used my big Le Creuset, after DH kindly unscrewed the knob for me (the Le Creuset Classic knobs are only rated to 190C - you can get heat-safe stainless steel replacement ones, apparently, and I might just have to). Preheated, with lid, for 30 minutes at 220C. The bread was shaped into a round, put on baking paper and left to rise in a bowl (not sure why, the internet said to - better shape, I guess?) Took the Dutch oven out, carefully picked up the baking paper and popped the whole lot in, slashed the dough shallowly, dusted it with flour. Lid back on, in the oven for 30 minutes. Took the lid off, cooked it 15 minutes more. Took out to cool on a rack.

Ladies, the rise was incredible - you can't tell in the pictures, but that is one monstrous loaf. Nearly filled up the Dutch oven, and it's my big unwieldy one I mostly use for chicken stock! And the CRUST! I have never in my life made a non-wimpy crust... which didn't bother me until recently, because I like soft crusts, but ever since I learned making a hard crust is considered an art form I've been peeved I couldn't do it.  I baked my bread on a pizza stone once, but it didn't do anything (though my pizza stone is wonderful for pizza, so I bear it no ill will).

The bread's for dinner tonight with guests, so I can't cut into it yet and inspect the crumb. And the bottom crust is pretty darn crunchy - I hope it's not too hard. So technically the jury's still out, but I was so excited I had to come and post this for you all! Look:





Totally legit rustic, amirite?! I am ridiculously excited. Loaf #2 is now in the oven.

ETA: I used this and this for reference, but my own bread recipe - 2/3 white, 1/3 wholemeal, no sourdough or 5-minutes-a-day-ness or anything fancy. The idea is that the lid traps the moisture of the dough inside, eliminating the need for a steam-injected oven (or opening it every now and then to spray it down, which makes the oven temp fluctuate and doesn't work that well anyway IME.)


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Brilliant Smokering! You have resurrected the bread thread! I am trying this on Sunday!


----------



## granite (Apr 9, 2012)

Yes! This is my standard technique, though I use a modified version of Jim Lahey's recipe from the NY Times (a third white flour, 2 thirds whole wheat, shaped with flax seeds mixed in at end). Yours looks gorgeous too!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Yay!

Loaf 2 just came out. It was a bit smaller - I wasn't sure how the Dutch oven thing would work, so I made a double batch of dough and shaped one into an oval on a baking sheet just in case. When the first one turned out so well I couldn't resist doing another, so the poor loaf kind of changed shape halfway through rising. That, and the fact that I halved the dough a bit unevenly, made a smaller loaf, but it looks neater and less rustic. I think my slashing was tidier or something. Anyway it rose and crisped nicely too, and is cooling on the bench. DH wants to taste it, but apparently cutting into it before it's cool softens the crust (another thing I never knew!) So he will just have to wait.

Granite, do you have consistently good success with the method? Any tips? What happens if you warm the loaf later? I like warm bread, but I don't want to ruin the crust...


----------



## granite (Apr 9, 2012)

This is pretty much the only bread baking technique I've used in recent memory! I had wrist problems for a while, and that's how I got into the no-knead thing. My dad first told me about it when that NYT recipe was published several years ago. For him, this is his "special occasion bread", and he thinks it's funny that it's part of my weekly (or daily!) routine... But I love how easy it is, with little spurts of work spread over a long period. I usually start the dough at bedtime, shape it when I get home from work the next day, and bake it in time to enjoy with dinner. Sometimes I start it in the morning, which doesn't have the same depth of flavour... But the dutch oven baking technique still works great!

I've re-warmed the loaves with no problem... And also shaped the dough into buns, then baked all together (they end up needing to be pulled apart, but that's part of the fun!). I never knew that about cutting-before-cooling softening the crust, either; thanks for the tip.

I don't actually slash mine, but maybe I should? Like Lahey's instructions, I flip over the shaped loaf to expose the seam as it bakes, which cracks open nicely.

I was on a gluten-free kick while TTC this past year, and have only recently gotten back into the bread-making routine... You've got me all inspired to stretch my skills


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, the bread was a success. I did re-warm it, and the crust went all crackly and nice and didn't soften. The bottom crust was firmer than the top and sides (not in a problematic way, just interesting to note). The guests complimented it and took some home. So yep, I think this is going to be my new baking method!

Now I need to convince DH to buy me a big oval Le Creuset, in case I want to do braided or oval loaves.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Smokering, that's a gorgeous loaf! I would post a photo of the loaf I made yesterday, but it's a pretty boring whole wheat sandwich loaf.

I am impressed with your slashing technique. I can't seem to slash the No Knead dough before it goes in the oven. It's too wet and soft. I also use the Lahey recipe posted by granite, so maybe I will try your links (haven't looked at them yet to figure out the differences). I've been making No Knead bread for a few years now but I haven't for a while. I'm inspired to make a loaf again.

For anyone who wants to try a reliable, traditional recipe for artisanal rustic loaf, this one from King Arthur Flour using the sponge preferment has been popular around here lately. I let the sponge sit overnight, about 12 hours total. I use the "Regular Oven Baking technique" in the recipe.

Oh, and the No Knead bread is delicious toasted.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, I just used my regular bread recipe - approx 3 c flour to 1 c liquid. The loaf didn't have that lovely airy crumb some of the photos online had, though - it was a bit holey-er than normal, but not significantly - so I might have to experiment with different recipes. DH really loves holey bread, and ciabatta in particular.

I slashed the dough with my really good breadknife (a bit tricky trying not to burn myself on the hot Dutch oven!), but apparently the posh way to do it is with a razor. If you oiled it first a razor should slip through even a fairly wet dough, don't you think?

It was actually the first time slashing has worked for me.  I used to slash it before the second rise, fairly deeply, and it kinda worked, but it didn't look like 'proper' rustic loaves. Slashing it after the rise always seemed strange to me, like the air would escape. Goes to show how little I know! The site recommended very shallow slashes too, just 1/4 inch.

I can't wait to try this technique with a sweet loaf! A braided apricot-orange loaf with a crackly crust, thickly dredged in icing sugar, served with orange rum butter, is a pleasing thought...


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I slashed the dough with my really good breadknife (a bit tricky trying not to burn myself on the hot Dutch oven!), but apparently the posh way to do it is with a razor. If you oiled it first a razor should slip through even a fairly wet dough, don't you think?


I use a pastry scraper to divide my dough and slash my loaves. Works like a charm.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, I've been researching how to get an open crumb, and it looks like I handle my dough way too much after the first rise. I've always been quite conscientious about squooshing out all the air bubbles, because I thought that was the point of knocking the dough back! (Plus, it's fun. I'll miss doing that.)

Also, though I've been moving towards a wetter dough (and using the dough hook rather than kneading by hand makes that less unpleasant), it seems my dough is still way too floury.

So I just made a poolish, and am going to try a slightly weird hybrid of several techniques in order to make a sweet raisin-orange loaf for supper tomorrow night after choir. I'll make the dough as wet as I can bear to. In the interest of not degassing the dough too much while shaping it, should I add the raisins and stuff during the initial mixing/kneading/folding process? My traditional-recipe method is to add big stuff like nuts and raisins after punching down the dough, just before shaping, but I'm not really sure why I do that.

So many assumptions to question! This is quite exciting.


----------



## mamasaia11 (Mar 2, 2010)

One suggestion I read in Michale Pollen's newest book was to sift your whole wheat flour first, reserving the larger bits of the grain that get left in the fine sieve and then rolling your dough in them right before the last rise, so that they just coat the outside. This keeps those "sharper" pieces of the grain out of the rising process and they don't shred your gluten strands. This makes for a much less dense bread. He was doing a long rise sour dough, but it was 100% WW.

I have yet to try it, but it sounds worth a try 

I'm w/ you on the quest for the best bread. I have found that melted coconut oil as the fat in the sandwich bread helps keep it softer as the loaf ages.

Good luck! And if you try this, let us know


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

That's a good idea with the whole-wheat flour! I'd wondered about sifting it and adding the bran back in after kneading, but I figured that while it'd give the gluten strands a chance to develop, it'd just cut them up anyway when added. Adding the bran to the outside is a great solution! I'll try it.

I watched this again last night and changed my poolish into the dough he uses. This morning it was all risen and bubbly and stringy like it should be (impressive, with only 1/4 tsp yeast!)

Just now I added raisins, sultanas, currants, chopped almonds, orange zest, brown sugar, cinnamon and mixed spice. Tried to mix it in thoroughly without completely de-gassing it. It can rise for several more hours like this anyway - I'll try to give it a few quick stretches every 20 minutes for the next few hours - and then I'll shape it in the bowl and bake it Dutch oven-style. It seems like my Dutch oven should be even hotter than I had it before. I bought a stainless steel knob for my Le Creuset yesterday. 

And I'll be sure to cook it, let it cool completely and reheat it before serving, instead of serving it warm from the oven. For the sake of the crust... but it also happens to be easier and should make it less doughy to cut. Win-win.


----------



## granite (Apr 9, 2012)

Looking forward to hearing about your results, *smokering*!


----------



## mamasaia11 (Mar 2, 2010)

Oh good! Please let us know if it helps at all. I just made WW pizza dough yesterday and wondered if I could have sifted the flour and just sprinkled the bran over the top of the sauce or something?

Good luck!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, the raisin bread was... can you say 'unqualified disaster'? It was a mess!









The dough was WAY too sticky and I don't think I did the fold-and-stretch thing right. It had none of the surface tension necessary to getting a good rise - it didn't even look like a loaf, just like a kind of wettish scone dough plopped into the bowl. I baked it anyway, hoping magic would happen in the oven, but nope. For some reason, though the searing-hot-Dutch-oven trick worked beautifully for my last loaf, this time it just burned the loaf to a crisp. Which is sort of what you'd expect from chucking a loaf in at 230C for 30 minutes... but why was it fine last time?

I cut the resulting sorry mess open just to see if there was at least a lovely open crumb inside, proving I'd done something right - but nope. It was sodden and dank and underbaked. I pitched it out the back door and hastily made some coconut-orange chocolate chunk cookies for supper instead - which went down a treat, fortunately.

So, yeah. Don't do what I did. 

Nothing daunted, I have ciabatta dough - ciabatta gloop, more precisely - rising as we speak, from this recipe. The only thing I've changed so far is to autolyse the flour and water overnight, because a few commenters said the flavour wasn't very developed due to the quickness of the recipe. It's only about 4-5 hours all up. So hopefully this will give it a better depth of flavour. I'm more worried about the texture, though - if I can make a really holey open-crumb bread I'll be as pleased as Punch. And my husband will love me more.  He adores ciabatta.

mamasaiall: I usually use white flour for pizza dough. I'm not sure the bran would be good on toppings. Maybe you could just toss the bran back into the flour bin? You'd still have a slightly healthier dough than with white flour, but a better texture. Every whole-wheat pizza dough I tried in the past was kind of gluggy and heavy and dank, so I'm a big fan of white dough rolled as thin as humanly possible these days. Sometimes I do a stuffed crust with mozzarella, and sesame seeds and rock salt sprinkled over the stuffed edge, too. That's yummy.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Holey crumb, Batman! It worked!





If anything it's probably too holey, but do you think I'm gonna complain about that?

Also, OVEN SPRING. Look at this. The one on the left is about to go in the oven. That's how much they rise.



I am very happy and can't stop eating it. And my darling son just picked up an entire loaf (the recipe makes four) and bit into the side. Sigh.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamasaia11*
> 
> One suggestion I read in Michale Pollen's newest book was to sift your whole wheat flour first, reserving the larger bits of the grain that get left in the fine sieve and then rolling your dough in them right before the last rise, so that they just coat the outside. This keeps those "sharper" pieces of the grain out of the rising process and they don't shred your gluten strands. This makes for a much less dense bread. He was doing a long rise sour dough, but it was 100% WW.


Which book? Have I missed a new one?


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Inspired by my success, I'm now itching to make Hokkaido Milk Bread. Doesn't it look fantastically soft and squishy and luscious? I sent DH out to buy some milk powder especially for the purpose.  I won't do it plain, I'll put some kind of yummy filling in it - I think it might be nice with minimal raisins and pink coconut icing on top, like a Boston bun.

It uses tangzhong - a roux made of flour and milk or water - which is supposed to give it a really silky texture. It's meant to be a good method for hamburger buns or any other fluffy, 'supermarkety' kind of soft bread. A bit odd to go from trying to make a rustic-as-heck holey ciabatta to trying to replicate feathery bland supermarket bread! But it does look yummy...

Also, I gave a loaf of my ciabatta to a friend today. She said she'd tried to make it once, but the recipe must have been wrong because the dough was really wet. Ha! I said I'd send her the recipe I used. It really was the bizarrest dough I've ever seen - like a mass of marshmallowy bubbles - but it worked!


----------



## mamasaia11 (Mar 2, 2010)

kitchensqueen- Cooked , Michael Pollan's newest book, came out near the end of April. And since I was only a couple weeks postpartum I had plenty of time to read, but I've had no time to bake since reading it 

Smokering- That is some beautiful ciabatta! Well done!! I wish I had more time to bake right now. I really want to do the dutch oven thing, Pollan does that for his bread recipe too, and apparently it gives his WW sourdough a great crust and crumb. I'm also fan of stuffed crust, mozzarella sticks cut from the big block, not string cheese, for me it just doesn't melt the same. I've usually put garlic salt inside the crust, never dressed the outside, but I will have to try that next time.

I sometimes do all WW for pizza crust, sometimes using white whole wheat if I have it, or part WW and white, or all white, depending on what I'm going for or who I'm cooking for. The white whole wheat and a little white flour is my favorite. I give it a little extra rising time, sometimes overnight in the fridge if I can swing it. I also have an Electrolux Assistent mixer that I bought used off of ebay a few years ago and I absolutely LOVE it for the way it handles WW doughs. I just beats them into submission and really makes them lighter and silkier than I can manage by hand or w/ the KitchenAid stand mixer.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I need to try white whole wheat! I've heard good things about it, just not sure where to get it round here. Something that's healthy like regular whole wheat but closer in texture to white sounds ideal.

Does Pollan recommend preheating the Dutch oven? Apparently you can do it either way and it makes almost no difference. After the major burning of my raisin loaf I'm wondering if a cold Dutch oven would be safer (but then, my first loaf was fine! Why?) - but putting cold cast iron into a 250C oven seems like it might stress the enamel.

The ciabatta is all gone.  It made four loaves - small loaves, to be sure, and mostly air - and we gave one away, but between the four of us we managed to finish the other three in half a day. Oops.

I made the tangzhong for the Hokkaido bread last night. Will time it to be ready around tomorrow lunchtime - I have a friend visiting at 2PM, and then we're dropping the kids off at Gran's in the evening so we can go see a movie, and I can give the second loaf to them. Otherwise I'd really have no excuse for making the stuff.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamasaia11*
> 
> kitchensqueen- Cooked , Michael Pollan's newest book, came out near the end of April. And since I was only a couple weeks postpartum I had plenty of time to read, but I've had no time to bake since reading it


I did miss one then! I need to see if the library has it...


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

The Hokkaido bread was a success! I added raisins, baked it as squooshed-together buns in a loaf tin and a roasting pan, and iced with pink coconutty buttery icing. The crumb was indeed silky and soft and tasty. I recommend it. 

A friend just had her baby (finally, 13 days late!), so I have an excuse to make more bread. Muahaha. And I need to make pizza dough for tomorrow night too. I'll go start autolysing! I think it really does make a difference to the handleability of slack dough.


----------



## pt33333 (Jul 30, 2013)

I've been reading through all the posts in this thread and loving it. I used to bake more regularly, but fell out of the habit. With fall coming and the super hot weather we've had this summer (hopefully) almost over I'm going to start again. I used to bake wheat bread each week for sandwiches as well as muffins and quick breads. I want to get back into baking our sandwich bread regularly again as well as trying my hand at burger and sub rolls. And I am going to venture into sourdough this fall as well.

The one thing I've never been successful with is pizza dough. I love homemade pizza, but can never get the dough right. I've given up for a while and buying dough from a local pizza place to bake my pizzas at home. I am determined to get it right one of these days.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, I made my pizza dough runnier than usual and left out the olive oil. I prefer my original version, but DH said he liked the newer version better because it's crispier. It wasn't too hard to do - I wet my hands with olive oil and just sort of spread it out on baking paper. Easier than rolling it out, really, but I couldn't do the stuffed crust. Not sure which recipe I'll go with in future.

And I had another disaster. I tried making a slack WW dough with the Michael Pollan rolling-in-the-bran method. Nope. My dough was just too runny. So much for the whole 'it'll turn out OK in the oven' thing. It did not. Gummy and weird. As I discovered after giving one of the loaves to a friend.  Slack dough is haaaaaaaaard. *whines* It did have a nice holey crumb - well, gummy and weird, but with big holes - but the loaves were very flat, because the dough just slumped across the bottom of the Dutch oven. It's frustrating - I really want to master the technique and get yummy rustic loaves already!

So thus far my new bread adventures have comprised two failures, two successes (three if you count my regular bread recipe in the Dutch oven) and one mixed opinion. Hmph.

Mum really loved the Hokkaido bread, though! Raved about it, and she's not given to raving. I'm going to make hamburger buns later this week using the tangzhong method and an enriched dough - basically Hokkaido bread with less sugar and a cup of cornmeal instead of some of the flour. My normal hamburger buns are pretty good, but it would be fun to get them even softer.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> And I had another disaster. I tried making a slack WW dough with the Michael Pollan rolling-in-the-bran method. Nope. My dough was just too runny. So much for the whole 'it'll turn out OK in the oven' thing. It did not. Gummy and weird. As I discovered after giving one of the loaves to a friend.  Slack dough is haaaaaaaaard. *whines* It did have a nice holey crumb - well, gummy and weird, but with big holes - *but the loaves were very flat, because the dough just slumped across the bottom of the Dutch oven.* It's frustrating - I really want to master the technique and get yummy rustic loaves already!


What size is your dutch oven? I'm not familiar with Pollan's recipe. The Lahey No Knead bread is a very loose, wet, runny dough (3 cups flour 1/4 tsp. yeast, 1 and 1/4 tsp salt, 1 and 5/8 cups water and that's it). I can't really handle it, other than to slop it onto the parchment paper and into the dutch oven. Lahey's recipe suggests a 6 to 8 qt. pot, but I always use a 3 or 4 qt. pot to get a nice, high round loaf. I find the larger pot always produces a loaf that is too flat, at least with the No Knead recipe.

I know you produced a beautiful round loaf before but I think you were using your traditional recipe (knead/proof/repeat etc.) with typical amounts of flour/yeast etc. If your slack dough from Pollan doesn't have the same yeast/kneading etc. as a typical recipe, maybe it also needs a smaller pot to help with the rise/oven spring.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Yeah, it was a big Dutch oven. When you say to use a smaller one, do you mean essentially using it like a loaf pan - the dough completely covering the bottom and rising up the sides? Or is there something more magical about it, like the concentrated steam producing a better oven spring? Any chance you could post a photo of one of your typical loaves?

And yeah, my pretty round loaf was a traditional non-artisan recipe. I'm almost tempted to go back to it, but I WANT the holey crumb and the better flavour of artisan loaves!

I made Jeffrey Hamelman's Rustic Bread from the Fresh Loaf site yesterday. It was a slack dough, but not quite as slack as the Lahey no-knead bread. I'd looked up a bunch of videos on slack dough, and did my best - lots of folding and stretching with resting between, using oil rather than flour to prevent sticking without messing up hydration, and pre-shaping the loaves with a short bench rest before the final shaping.

I still had to use flour for the final shaping, and I couldn't get my boule to be a taut round ball - it went flattish. I shaped the other loaf into a batard, which was also flat. I hoped for magical oven spring, but I think I overproofed them? When I slashed them before baking they seemed overproofed.

Anyway, the results aren't bad - I'm eating a slice right now and it has a really yummy, chewy crumb, a good crust and a nice flavour (due to a decent amount of salt plus the preferment, I think). It's just the flatness that irritates me! The guy who posted the recipe on The Fresh Loaf showed photos of his attempts, which were nice and round; and he specifically mentioned that this was the first slack dough he'd managed to get high loaves out of. Grrr.

I'll make it again, simply because of the yumminess. Next time I'll try a retarded ferment in the fridge; that's supposed to be good for forming stronger gluten bonds. I added a bit of vital wheat gluten to the last batch to compensate for the WW flour (it's mostly white, maybe 2/3-1/3) - perhaps I should add a bit more next time?

I also want to try a batch of 'savoury' Hokkaido with mixed grains in it. Perhaps I can replicate those uber-light 'wholegrain' loaves from the supermarket.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Yeah, it was a big Dutch oven. When you say to use a smaller one, do you mean essentially using it like a loaf pan - the dough completely covering the bottom and rising up the sides? Or is there something more magical about it, like the concentrated steam producing a better oven spring? Any chance you could post a photo of one of your typical loaves?


Maybe both? Mostly, I think the soft wet dough benefits from some external support and climbs up the sides so it doesn't just puddle and spread out and come out like a big flatbread.

I have 2 pots that I use. One is this oval casserole dish with a lid. It's 4 qts. The dough doesn't completely cover the bottom lengthwise but it does from side-to-side at the mid-point of the dish.

The other is this 4 1/2 qt. round doufeu. The dough does cover the bottom. BTW, I only bought this pot because I found it on sale for an amazing price and couldn't resist. It's turned out to be very useful.

I don't have a photo, sorry, but I'll take one the next time I make it and post.

That Hokkaido breads sounds delicious.


----------



## granite (Apr 9, 2012)

I use this one from Lodge, which I love because the lid is also a skillet! In my small kitchen, dual-purpose cookware is always a winner.

If I were to get a larger one, I'm coveting on oblong Le Creuset roaster, like what *ollyoxenfree* has... So jealous! They sometimes have them at my local Winners (I think it's called TJ Maxx in the States? Not sure if there's a Kiwi equivalent) for cheap, or at least cheaper than other places, because there's a defect in the colour of the glaze or something else that won't affect its actual use.

*Smokering*, you've got me reading all about Hokkaido bread now... Fantastic. I want to make a savoury version with bits of green onion in it, like the buns I buy in Chinatown.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *granite*
> 
> I use this one from Lodge, which I love because the lid is also a skillet! In my small kitchen, dual-purpose cookware is always a winner.
> 
> ...


I love my Lodge cast iron skillets. I have a medium (8 inch, maybe?) and a large (12 inch). I bet that covered pot is awesome. It reminds me of my grandmother's cast iron rice pot. It's almost 100 years old and still fantastic.

The oval casserole is stoneware, not enameled cast iron, so it's much less expensive than the other LeCreuset pots. I found it at another amazing sale price. It's not as good as the enameled cast iron, but it does the job. I have an enameled cast iron large Dutch Oven that I use a lot in the winter for stews, risotto, braised lamb shanks and so on. I once read a professional chef who admitted that she searched flea markets, out-of-the-way antique shops and yard sales for her collection of Le Creuset. It's such long-lasting, tough stuff, she could often find terrific bargains.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Hmm, OK. I have two pots that might work - a small, flattish Lodge and a small Le Creuset Dutch oven (really just a small saucepan with two handles - it came inside the big Dutch oven I use for stock). They'd both be too shallow to use with the lids on, but maybe I could do something complicated - put the small saucepan on a pizza stone and cover it with a larger upside-down Dutch oven. Do you think that'd work? You'd still get the steam. I used the pizza stone covered with the upside-down oval casserole for baking my last batch, and it was unwieldy but doable.

We got our Le Creusets years ago, before we got married, when we were buying stuff for the house and could afford such things.  The big oval cast iron casserole I just bought was on deep discount - only $70! It's the store brand of a popular homeware shop - I hope it'll hold up. I've never heard of a doufeu, but it looks excellent for retaining steam.

Well, I'll go add the rest of the ingredients to the preferment for Batch #2 of the Rustic Loaf, and chuck it in the fridge. I'm out today anyway, which should help with my impatience.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Smokering, I hereby christen you The Bread Guru.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Me? Ha! Heck no. I wish.  I'm learning the terminology, but that doesn't mean I can make it go! Yet... (she says sinisterly, plotting world domination)

I got up at 6:45 to bake the bread this morning, because I'm a tad obsessed. The boule went in my small, shallow Lodge pan with a ceramic casserole dish perched upside-down on top. The batard went on the preheated pizza stone with my oval cast iron casserole upside-down on top.

This time the crust was fine, the flavour was great and I got a decently round boule, but less oven spring and NO HOLES! The crumb was virtually identical to my regular bread. I'm stumped. This is like alchemy.  I mean, I shouldn't complain about perfectly nice bread, but why must it be so darned temperamental?!

As soon as the stand mixer bowl comes out of the dishwasher I'm gonna start the preferment for another batch of ciabatta. Here's hoping my first success wasn't a fluke - I'm not assuming anything these days! I bought semolina today - it makes a really nice dusting instead of bran or flour - and will use that in place of part of the flour in the recipe. Apparently it's a thing; gives a better flavour. I hope so, because we'll be serving it to guests, although I froze one of today's loaves just in case!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I got up at 6:45 to bake the bread this morning, because I'm a tad obsessed.


But that is exactly why you are The Bread Guru.

Have you read On Food & Cooking by Harold McGee? It's the bible of the science of cooking and I think you will find it excellent reading, if you haven't gone through it already.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> But that is exactly why you are The Bread Guru.


Aspergic tendencies.  I get single-mindedly obsessed with things, sometimes for years at a time. Never housework, sadly. But anything you want to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case, The Lord of the Rings (book or films) or selected aspects of Tudor England, I'm your girl. Or guru, if you prefer. Hopefully this will prove to be one of my more useful obsessions, at least... it's surprising how rarely one needs to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case.

Currently halfway through baking Batch #2 of ciabatta. The semolina adds something - the crumb isn't quite as soft as last time (in a good way - it's more like fancy ciabattas I've bought). I'm baking them in a Dutch oven this time instead of on a baking stone. For such a peculiar dough the loaves are actually quite forgiving. I tried to reuse the baking paper for the second loaf and, being slightly burned and brittle, it tore when I was dumping the loaf into the red-hot Dutch Oven, slopping the dough all over the side. I hastily scooped it up and rearranged the drooping mass on a clean sheet of baking paper, but thought I'd ruined it. Nope - baked up nice and golden, with oven spring and everything. It looked better than the first loaf! It helps that ciabatta is meant to look rustic and misshapen...

Today I also mixed up my savoury Hokkaido, swapping 100gm flour for cornmeal, upping the salt and reducing the sugar. Put it in the oven for a retarded ferment. And I used the same bowl I used for the ciabatta without washing it, in the hopes that the leftover fragments of dough will act as a touch of preferment. (Also... lazy.)

We're having visitors tonight and tomorrow, so I've been cooking all day - the breads, sponge cake, tabbouleh, berry sorbet, glykinai and almendrados. Still have to do chicken and dukkah. Luckily the children are being low-maintenance and I'm having a lovely time!

ETA: Also, I saw a cool YouTube video last night by some French baker - can't remember who - on how to work with high-hydration doughs. He used a 'slap and fold' technique, which involves incorporating a sort of pocket of air into the dough with every move. Looked doable. It's so amazing to see the sloppy, sticky mess becoming smooth and sleek and workable. DH was (sort of) watching with me and I tried to get him to appreciate the awesomeness, but he wasn't impressed. I guess you need to have a few failed doughs to recognise the beauty of one that works!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Aspergic tendencies.  I get single-mindedly obsessed with things, sometimes for years at a time. Never housework, sadly. But anything you want to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case, The Lord of the Rings (book or films) or selected aspects of Tudor England, I'm your girl. Or guru, if you prefer. Hopefully this will prove to be one of my more useful obsessions, at least... it's surprising how rarely one needs to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case.


The Tudors! Have you read The Tudors by G.J. Meyers? Or the most recent Phillippa Gregory novel?

Sorry everyone. I know I should not hijack this thread on bread with talk of historical royal dynasties, but it's a bit of an obsession for me...

Bread related - major fails lately. Hot weather is great for proofing, but who wants to pre-heat the oven to 500 in a 100 degree heat? I just can't do it...


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Nope! I haven't read any Tudor fiction (is The Tudors fiction?) about the time period for some reason. Mostly non-fiction about QE1 and books about the clothing and politics of the times. The closest I've gotten to Phillippa Gregory is watching The Other Boleyn Girl, which didn't grab me.

The savoury Hokkaido was really nice. I'm not sure whether I like it more than my regular hamburger bun dough or not - it was definitely softer, but I quite like the more substantial buns I usually make. Made the rest of the dough into little mini-buns topped with white and black sesame seeds, and they were a hit at church lunch today. A friend who briefly lived in China said they tasted just like the bread you can buy there, which was the idea, so yay!

Batch #3 of ciabatta is currently rising. DH requested it for Fathers' Day. I think the oven spring was just as good baking them on the stone as in the Dutch oven, so I'll do that again - way less hassle. And easier to fling droplets of water on 'em while they bake. I'm going to try to fold the dough on itself to get a slightly higher loaf this time, I think.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Nope! I haven't read any Tudor fiction (is The Tudors fiction?) about the time period for some reason. Mostly non-fiction about QE1 and books about the clothing and politics of the times. The closest I've gotten to Phillippa Gregory is watching The Other Boleyn Girl, which didn't grab me.


Try the books - a million times better than the movies. For me, they're so addicting I can never put them down, and even re-read them.

For bread this week, I'm shifting Sunday bread baking until tomorrow since I have it (mostly) off work. I'm going to do a rye sandwich bread, because I finally remembered to pick up rye flour at last grocery shop. I think I'll just do a couple of basic boules.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I might give them a go at some stage. I tend to be leery of historical fiction though, if it's a period I'm really interested in; just because it frustrates me not knowing which bits are factual and which are the results of sloppy research, Hollywood-style sexing-up, turning insignificant female players into scheming villains in the name of feminism, anachronistic dialogue, artistic licence and so on. I like to know what I know about something, y'know?

Yesterday's ciabatta turned out the best of all, although I have no idea why.  I sort of squooshed the dough together and turned it under as best I could during the final shaping, and it may have helped with the oven spring.

We don't really need any more bread, but last night I couldn't resist autolysing some flour anyway! I was going for a 75% hydration formula - mostly white flour, with a bit of wholemeal and semolina - but due to the lateness of the hour I might have accidentally used 600g instead of 500g of flour. I can't be sure, but it was definitely not a slack dough this morning. So I squooshed some extra water in. I'll start the slap-and-fold technique in a minute (my main reason for wanting to make the bread!) In the meantime I'm soaking some mixed kibbled grains and will add them to the dough at some undetermined future stage...


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I might give them a go at some stage. I tend to be leery of historical fiction though, if it's a period I'm really interested in; just because it frustrates me not knowing which bits are factual and which are the results of sloppy research, Hollywood-style sexing-up, turning insignificant female players into scheming villains in the name of feminism, anachronistic dialogue, artistic licence and so on. I like to know what I know about something, y'know?
> 
> ...


Yeah I know what you mean about the historical fiction - I used to be the same way. But Gregory's stuff is just so well done!

I had a dream the other night that we had like eight loaves of bread in our house, but I still needed more. Clearly this fits your house more than mine lately!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Grr. It seems I still have a long way to go on high-hydration doughs.

I did the slap-and-fold thing, which was great fun, and then rested it and repeated at 20-minute intervals four or five times. It never came together like the YouTube guy's. For a few seconds it would look nice and taut, and then it would just go 'bleeugh' and slump down flat onto the table again. Very annoying. I don't know if it was the small quantity of wholemeal flour cutting the gluten strands, or what. Eventually I added some soaked wholegrains.

Shaped it as best I could, put it upside-down in a bowl and did a retarded rise overnight. This morning it was a tad reluctant to leave the bowl, which had been WELL oiled and floured - that's how runny it was. Turned it out onto parchment, and by the time I got my hot mini-Dutch oven ready it had slumped again. Stuffed it in the oven, which I put inside a larger lidded Dutch oven (both hot) and baked.

It's a decent-looking loaf - got some oven spring, at least - but the runniness of the dough meant the folds of baking paper around it left little wriggly wrinkles in the sides. And the slashes didn't really do their pretty slashy thing.

I am meekly not cutting into it until cooled, for the sake of the crust. Hopefully it'll taste good, at least. But this is all extremely vexing. I WILL conquer this! (said Mr Darcy.) Maybe I'll try a completely white loaf next time, just to avoid possible issues with the bran.

Mum mentioned that she tried the artisan bread thing several years back, and found that it didn't work as well as advertised because NZ flour isn't as strong, or has different protein percentages, or something. There might be something in that. I looked at the Mediterranean grocer for fancy flour and they didn't sell any; should try the gourmet food store in town. I don't want to be buying expensive flours, but if it works...


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

A muted woot for moderate success! Made a 75% hydration white boule today. I added a bit of gluten, did the slap-and-fold for ages and then about five sets of stretch-and-folds 20 minutes apart. It was still kind of sticky at the end - definitely stuck to the bench, unlike the YouTube guy's lovely silky dough - but it got noticeably firmer and more elastic between rests, and wasn't completely slumping everywhere by the end. Then I did the bulk ferment on the bench, preshaped and shaped it with just a little flour, rose in a bowl on parchment, and baked in the Dutch oven.

It rose - it isn't a football like my regular-hydration loaves were, but it's a very respectable-looking loaf, and had a ton of oven spring. The crumb is holey! The crust is nice and thick. And it tastes good.

So yay! I'm still not 100% satisfied. I undercooked it a bit - the crust browned too fast. Next time I'll turn the heat down after awhile and maybe keep the lid of the Dutch oven on longer. And my slashing still needs a lot of work - the serrated knife just isn't good enough. I need a razor blade. (And man, I REALLY need a dough scraper! I'm sick of cleaning dried-on dough off the bench.)

Still, this is the closest I've come so far. Also, that white dough with mixed grains turned out to be rather yummy. Go figure.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Anyone still baking?

My white loaves are getting more successful. I made a 75% hydration rye loaf the other day, but I'd forgotten how thirsty rye is - it soaked up all the liquid and made a very stiff dough. Turned out pretty, but it wasn't really 'artisan'.

Bought a grunty metal dough scraper and a smaller, flexible, curved pastry scraper.

DH is reluctantly spreading out some 80% hydration rosemary pizza dough, because I'm too sick to do it. Because of said sickness it's not as gluten-developed as it should be - I gave it the odd stretch-and-fold in the bowl with a spoon when I could haul myself out of bed, but I wasn't up to much tender loving care. Curious to see how it turns out, though - I'm using 00 pizza flour, fancy stuff from the wholesale restaurant supply shop. It was one of those "Hmm, do I really want this to work?" purchases - it's twice as expensive as regular flour. But hey, Art comes at a price.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Anyone still baking?
> 
> ...


 I have been exceedingly lazy in the baking department as of late. I've been doing muffins every week, mostly pumpkin and chocolate chip, and if you think about it and stretch the rules a bit muffins are kind of a form of quick bread, which is vaguely bread-like so therefore I think it should count.

The weather is starting to cool finally (I think - it's been yo-yo-ing a bit recently) so proper bread baking is on my radar again. I;m thinking about doing up a rye loaf on Sunday. And for some reason, I keep thinking about Parker House rolls, so I may give those a go.

And you are directing the bread baking from your sick bed!? This is hard core; you're taking this to another level here. And I hope you feel better soon!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Heh - well, I'd already started the bread when I came down with the lurgy, so it had to be done. Mostly better now, thanks! 

Just had an odd experience with the ciabatta. I was making the same dough as usual - 95% hydration, 150g semolina flour and 350g flour. I don't have any high-grade flour, so I used the posh pizza flour I bought the other day and added in a Tbsp or so of gluten. Then I decided to chuck in just a touch of sourdough starter. SIL gave me some of her rye starter which I've been feeding into wheatiness, and I thought maybe just a tiny splash would add some nice depth of flavour. And then I couldn't remember if the recipe used 1/2 tsp or 2 tsp yeast, but figured I'd use the lower amount and could let it slow-rise overnight if necessary.

I don't know if it was the runniness of the sourdough start mucking up the hydration, the lack of yeast or the use of the pizza flour, but the stuff WOULD NOT go doughy. I beat it for - no exaggeration - 40 minutes in the stand mixture and it just kept slopping around like pancake batter. Eventually in desperation I added another spoonful of flour, and then another, and then the rest of the yeast. Not sure which did the trick, but after another 10 minutes or so it was fine. It seems to be its usual marshmallowy, goopy self now, and I hope it'll turn out OK - but what went wrong? Any ideas? Seems funny that just a tiny bit of extra hydration would make that much difference...

Anyway, assuming it turns out OK I'm going to make two of the loaves into a yummy picnic lunch for tomorrow. What you do is slice the entire loaf in half like a panini, fill it with yummy things (I'll do butter, fancy cheese, salami and tapenade - thank you, gift voucher to the fancy grocer!), then sort of squoosh it down and let it meld for several hours. It's supposed to be very nice.

Then this Saturday we're having a BBQ here for a friend's surprise party. I'm in charge of dessert (pumpkin spice layer cake with salted caramel cream cheese icing, and coffee ripple ice cream) and breads. Think I'll do ciabatta because I can't resist showing it off, and then maybe some savoury Hokkaido hot dog buns, and then... fougasse? I've never made that before, but I've been hankering to. What do you do with it, though, exactly? Just pull off hunks and eat it?


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, the ciabatta turned out fine, so... who knows.

I made fougasse! Basic white dough with a bit of semolina, 70% hydration (which seemed ridiculously dry by my new standards!) Made three loaves and tried a different shaping/slashing method with each - what works best is to shape and slash on a floured bench, then transfer to parchment and allow to rise. It helps the slits open up and gives a more rustic, less neat look. I pounded garlic, rosemary, rock salt and olive oil together and spread it on the loaves before baking, and pushed some whole olives in here and there (which was really yummy - I should use whole olives more often.) Did two loaves with white sesame seeds sprinkled on top, and one with black. Served 'em with olive oil, balsamic vinegar and dukkah. And it was nice.  I think I'll make it again for Saturday.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Just made the nicest sourdough I've ever baked! The Fresh Loaf informed me that for a less acidic, more yoghurty tang you should keep the starter quite liquid, whereas for a more pronounced sour taste it should be stiff. I've never liked sourdough, but DH asked me to make some, so I did it with the liquidy starter and it was delicious! I wouldn't have picked it as sourdough at all. All white flour, but with kibbled grains. The loaves weren't as high or pretty as I'd like, especially as I'm giving one away; but hey, they taste good.

Maybe this time I won't let my starter die of neglect.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I have been making wholemeal rolls with oats and flaxmeal. I'm having trouble getting them to stay a nice shape but the taste and texture is great.

Smokering, have you tried "slashing" with scissors? I've had some luck on loaves using that method.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)




----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Kate, do you mean using a single blade of the scissors like a knife, or snipping the dough?

My sourdough loaves slashed quite well with the serrated knife - I let them slow-rise uncovered in the fridge overnight, so they developed quite a solid 'crust' (another trick from The Fresh Loaf), and I wet the knife before slashing. I still want to get a razor, but the fancy kitchenware shop had never heard of 'em.

Your loaves look lovely! Do you taste the flaxmeal?


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Maybe this time I won't let my starter die of neglect.


No matter what I do I can't keep a sourdough starter alive. Anyone have any tips?


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Kate, do you mean using a single blade of the scissors like a knife, or snipping the dough?
> 
> ...


Thanks  I used a spray bottle to spritz them with water before I put them in the oven. I read that tip in the River Cottage Bread book, which is also where I get my basic bread recipe from. You can't really taste the flax but it lightens the texture quite a bit. The straight wholemeal is pretty dense.

I use the scissors to snip the dough instead of slashing. I open the scissors as wide as they'll go and then do a long but shallow snip. It's a bit hard to describe. It worked well for the stickier dough that the knife dragged through.

I just printed out the milk bread recipe you mentioned from Our Daily Loaf. Children permitting I'm going to try it today.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> I just printed out the milk bread recipe you mentioned from Our Daily Loaf. Children permitting I'm going to try it today.


Ooh, did you? The recipe intrigues me. I've been meaning to try tangzhong in a regular bread recipe - apparently it helps with the ever-elusive goal of getting light, fluffy wholemeal bread. So far I've only made the basic recipe and a savoury variation (no sugar, subbing one cup of flour with fine cornmeal). It's amazingly shreddy and pillowy and soft. It *is* sort of bland and supermarkety - I wouldn't want it every day - but it works really well as hot dog buns or little soft rolls with garlic butter. I've gotten compliments every time I've made it.

Made another batch of sourdough today. This time I soaked the kibbled grains longer before adding them to the dough (a Good Thing; they were a tad too crunchy last time), and added a bit of rye flour. The dough's quite slack, so I baked one lot in a loaf tin (which juuuuust fit in the Dutch oven!) The other had to be freeform because my cake tins were busy, and it turned out pretty flat. Yummy though.

The crust on these things is incredible - you could slit your wrists on it. It's actually quite hard to cut. Yummy, though! DH loves it, especially with lots of butter and honey. And I do enjoy the 'magic' of watching sourdough work - I'm always faintly surprised when it rises. I remember as a little kid worrying very hard about the origins of bread - where did they get the yeast from? How did they know how to make something so complicated? It makes a lot more sense now I know about sourdough.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I did. Mixed results. The flavour was good. I followed the recipe but halved the sugar. I'm glad I did, we wouldn't have wanted it any sweeter.

The texture was pretty good. Not at light and feathery as the pictures on the blog. It looked a bit more cake-y.

The main problem though was that it didn't rise in the oven. First rise was fine. Second rise, in the pans, was fine. But then it didn't rise at all after that. So I had three fairly flat loaves.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

We ate the first loaf and ive frozen the other two to make roasted veggie sandwiches with.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Reviving this thread to report that I have become a slave to sourdough. I figured people here might understand. 

I started following the Bourke Street Bakery feeding schedule over a month ago. I am getting beautiful loaves but since I hate just throwing away the starter when I feed it, I have been making endless amounts of waffles, crumpets, apple spice bread, banana bread etc. 

Yesterday I made a plain boule, a spiced fruit sourdough loaf, 2 apple spiced cakes and i still have a bucket of discarded starter in the fridge.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

LOL! I don't understand yet but I'm planning to start a sour dough starter once the weather warms up so I'm probably looking into my future 

On another matter, how do people get oven spring? I happy with the taste and texture of most of my things now but they are all still much flatter than I'd like.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Oven spring? Cook it in a Dutch oven. Night and day, seriously.

I use a big oval enamelled cast-iron one. First I heat the oven up HOT - 250C - for about 25 minutes. Then I pop the loaf (boule, usually) in on its square of baking paper. I coat the bottom of my Dutch oven with a layer of coarse cornmeal to prevent the bottom of the loaf scorching - I change it occasionally, but it lasts for several bakes.

Then I sprinkle a bit of water around the sides of the Dutch oven and on the lid, and pop it in the oven for about 40 minutes, turning the oven down a bit to 220ish after the first few minutes. Then I haul it out, take off the lid and inspect. If it doesn't look done, the lid goes back on and it goes back in for 10-15 minutes. If it looks done but pale, it goes back in for 10 minutes or so with the lid off. If it looks done and nicely browned, well, it's done. 

You get more oven spring with high hydration doughs, but even fairly 'dry' doughs benefit from this method. Lovely oven spring, slashes open up beautifully, and you can get really great chewy, non-wimpy crusts. I love it.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Oh cool, thank you! I will give that a try tomorrow.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I made a list of suggestions for encouraging oven spring when I was having trouble with a recipe.You may want to experiment to see if just 1 of the suggestions works.

Before you start baking, make sure the final proof was adequate. The dough should spring back nicely when you poke it.

1. Wet the dough just before baking by spraying with water

2. Place a pan of water in the bottom of the oven

3. Use a baking stone or invert a baking sheet and place it in the oven while it pre-heats. 

4. Pre-heat the oven 25 to 50 degrees Farenheit hotter than the recipe asks, then decrease the heat to the recipe's temperature (a) when you pit the bread in the oven or (b) after the first 10 minutes of baking.

Full disclosure, I never did manage a nice oven spring with the recipe I was using. I also experimented with the amont of yeast and the kneading and proofing times, but nothing seemed to work. I don't make it anymore.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Are you sure you weren't over-proofing it? One of the things I learned on The Fresh Loaf (great site, incidentally) is that one of the most common mistakes in breadmaking is to overproof on the final rise. It shouldn't double, apparently; it needs to have rising 'room' to spring in the oven, as it were, or it'll just sort of sit there or worse, collapse. I only proof mine for about an hour (with a smaller amount of yeast than most recipes call for).


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Hm, that's interesting about over proofing. I wonder if that's where I went wrong today. My Dutch oven loaf didn't spring but it has a lovely crust. Do you grease the Dutch oven? I did the cornmeal and baking paper on the base and lightly oiled the sides but it stuck badly around the sides. 

The second loaf I did in an ordinary tin with a tray of water in the base of the oven. I managed a modest spring. Certainly better than I've achieved before.

I used my standard loaf recipe but made it wetter than I usually do.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Hmm. I've never greased my Dutch oven or had a problem with sticking. Is yours enameled? I use a really big oval Dutch oven. The bread isn't supposed to fill it up like bread dough in a loaf tin - there should be some space around the loaf (to contain the lovely moist steamy air, which helps with oven spring). My square of baking paper usually ends up a few centimetres up each narrow side of the oval, which is enough to keep even a round boule from touching the sides. I've had the odd occasion where a few centimetres of loaf touched the sides, but it didn't stick - maybe because by the time it 'grew' to touch the sides it had already formed something of a crust?

Curious!


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Ah, no, mine totally filled the pan. It was touching the sides at the end of the second rise. So clearly I put far too much dough in to start with. 

It is enamelled but it's round rather than oval and not huge. I shall try again with a much smaller quantity.


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Bringing back this thread. I made my first successful batch of buns for bratwursts today! They are ugly as sin - I need to work on my technique for forming the buns, but they turned out great! Was super excited to find a recipe that I can modify to be dairy free without compromising the result. It called for butter, which I subbed for Earth Balance margarine. You'd hardly know the difference!


----------



## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Made a basic sandwich loaf today and it came out beautifully. Only took me twelve years to figure out how to do it dairy-free!


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Yay!

I haven't posted for a while, but my bread's been chugging along quite nicely. I'm making almost entirely Dutch-oven boules now. And I've been experimenting more with adding various grains to white dough - spelt, rye, barley, quinoa and so on. I find if I keep the majority of the flour high-grade white, the bread tends to work well. Not as healthy as using wholemeal flour, but my wholemeal flour loaves tend to be doughier and gummier and less well-risen and just far less appealing. I'm not sure of a way around it - the bran cuts the gluten strands. I tried doing that thing where you sift out the biggest bran particles and roll the dough in it, but it only worked moderately well, and I prefer to sprinkle other stuff on my loaves anyway - semolina or coarse cornmeal or sesame seeds, usually.

My results so far: spelt (a small proportion of spelt flour plus some actual spelt... berries?) is very nice. Red quinoa (soaked in brine overnight and rinsed to get rid of the bitterness) looks good and adds a mildly pleasant texture, but you can't really taste it - it's just sort of *there*. Kibbled wheat and rye require a fair bit of soaking unless you want really crunchy/chewy bits (though DH likes 'em!), but they taste good. And cooked barley makes the bread slightly gummy (which could probably be avoided by using a lower-hydration dough to start with), but again, is yummy.

I've also taken to mixing the dough by machine, and only adding the soaked, well-drained grains at the last minute, by hand, mixing as little as possible in a folding motion. That seems to avoid the grains slackening/cutting the dough and making it all wet and gummy and gross.

I also discovered an incredibly delicious recipe, from Pioneer Woman of all places! Look up her recipe for 'The Bread'. It's basically just a white boule from the supermarket, cut in half horizontally, each half spread with a TON of butter, and grilled until brown.

It sounds boring, but the reviews were glowing, so I tried it. I made my own loaf, of course.  And I added garlic to the butter, because duh... plus just a wee sprinkle of garlic salt over the top... and after it was grilled, I strewed chopped parsley on top for a bit of colour and served it cut in strips.

It's INCREDIBLY good. You have to really grill the butter until it's almost burned, not just melted. I've made it several times for guests and people rave about it. I can highly recommend it, as long as butter's cheap in your area.  I find we generally only use half a loaf (as in, the top or the bottom) at once, so I butter both halves at once and freeze one ready to go for next time. Very handy.


----------



## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Sounds delicious!

My favourite recipe lately has been Alton Brown's Leftover Oatmeal Bread. I always have to adjust it because we never have as much leftover porridge as the recipe requires. (It has been so cold here we gobble up our oatmeal in the morning to sustain us. Yesterday was the first day above 0 Celsius in over 40 days. I almost threw a parade). I add a little more flour and water to compensate, but it always turns out well. 

Other slight recipe adjustments - I use instant yeast and about half white and half whole wheat flour and honey instead of agave.


----------

