# Car seat culture in Europe



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

So, one thing that I have noticed since joining MDC is that there are rather a lot of threads regarding carseats, of all things. I can't quite figure out what all the fuss is about. Honestly, we just went to the store, told the store person our DD's age, and he showed us the type of car seat that we should buy. I have no idea what this 5-point harness thingy that everyone is talking about is supposed to look like. In any event, our DD is 2.5 years old (turns 3 on August 10) and has this carseat, which to me looks like a 3 point harness and not 5 point so am a bit confused.

We bought the carseat in France and now we live in Italy. All other children her age in France and Italy (that I have seen, in any event) have the same kind of carseat. Are we all committing some kind of egregious error?

Another observation: The other day I was in a friend's car. DD was installed in her car seat and my friend's daughter was installed in the same type of carseat on the other side of me. My friend's daughter (same age as DD) was clearly tired and cranky and started to cry and reach out to her mamma. We were in heavy traffic in central Rome. Her mother promptly removed her daughter from the carseat and brought her to the front seat to sit on her lap, while the car was driving.

I did not condemn or scold my friend for doing this, or even say anything at all, as I think that in Italian culture, parents tend to believe that their child's emotional well-being is as important as his or her physical safety, and while my DH and I would be more likely just to tell my DD that she had to stay in her carseat until we arrived at our destination (unless it was practical to stop somewere), I certainly understand this point of view as well.

Given that this is an AP forum, I would be interested in others' feelings about this kind of reaction to a crying child in a carseat.

Hope I have not opened a can of worms.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

That picture *looks* like a 5pt harness. Two on the shoulders, two at the hips and one between the legs.

-Angela


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I realize that people not only in different parts of the world handle things differently, same with people in the US, but we made a decision not to get DS out of his carseat while the car was moving. Yes, a few times he howled and it was AWFUL. But it was only until we could get off the highway and console him.

He is now almost 2, and seems to have an understanding that there is no getting out of the carseat while the car is moving. It's a little easier since he understands more and is able to play with toys and such&#8230;

We also have broken a "rule" we made when we first bought our new car, which was "no eating in the car." He now has little snacks (nothing overly messy but raisins or dry cereal for example) as well as his sippy cup and that seems to help.

The carseat you have shown seems fine to me. We did a bit of research, but also didn't find it an overwhelming task to pick out a carseat.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
That picture *looks* like a 5pt harness. Two on the shoulders, two at the hips and one between the legs.

-Angela

Edited: there are 2 straps coming from the shoulders and hips that join in the centre to connect to a thing between the legs. Is that 5-point harness?? To me it would be 3-point harness because you are only connecting 3 straps together, in effect.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Sorry to go off topic on my own thread but alegna, I just noticed that our daughters are one day apart in age. Almost twins!


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
So, one thing that I have noticed since joining MDC is that there are rather a lot of threads regarding carseats, of all things. I can't quite figure out what all the fuss is about. Honestly, we just went to the store, told the store person our DD's age, and he showed us the type of car seat that we should buy. I have no idea what this 5-point harness thingy that everyone is talking about is supposed to look like. In any event, our DD is 2.5 years old (turns 3 on August 10) and has this carseat, which to me looks like a 3 point harness and not 5 point so am a bit confused.

We bought the carseat in France and now we live in Italy. All other children her age in France and Italy (that I have seen, in any event) have the same kind of carseat. Are we all committing some kind of egregious error?

Another observation: The other day I was in a friend's car. DD was installed in her car seat and my friend's daughter was installed in the same type of carseat on the other side of me. My friend's daughter (same age as DD) was clearly tired and cranky and started to cry and reach out to her mamma. We were in heavy traffic in central Rome. Her mother promptly removed her daughter from the carseat and brought her to the front seat to sit on her lap, while the car was driving.

I did not condemn or scold my friend for doing this, or even say anything at all, as I think that in Italian culture, parents tend to believe that their child's emotional well-being is as important as his or her physical safety, and while my DH and I would be more likely just to tell my DD that she has to stay in her carseat until we are arrive at our destination (unless it was practical to stop somewere), I certainly understand this point of view as well.

Given that this is an AP forum, I would be interested in others' feelings about this kind of reaction to a crying child in a carseat.

Hope I have not opened a can of worms.









I think you see a lot of car seat threads because car seats are an important part of parenting. I highly doubt all if Europe is committing an error, rather just using the car seats available to you there. (I've read that the testing is more stringent in Europe so...) In the US, you see a lot of the same car seats as well. I think as long as the car seat has been tested and is not under recall, it is much better than not using anything.

As for your friend taking the baby out of the car seat, Maybe I'm being harsh here, but I find that to be a very irresponsible thing to do. I would never take my baby out of her car seat in rural Utah, much less heavy traffic in a big city, like Los Angles. I have a DD who HATES her car seat, and does cry quite regularly in it. I talk to her sing to her, explain why I won't hold her, but she stays in. Sometimes she stops crying sometimes she keeps on. I've pulled over, but there are many times pulling over is dangerous, so we plug on. I don't like her crying, but sometimes there is nothing I can do. I do not consider this CIO as I'm not trying to teach her to sleep though the night, rather just go to grandma's house.

I believe my DD's emotional well being is very important, but my first job as a parent is to protect her physical well being. Because without physical well being, there is no emotional well being. Bluntly, you cannot AP a dead child. Heavy traffic is very dangerous, as I'm sure you are aware.

Another point making her taking the baby from the car seat very dangerous. If the car you were in had front airbags, if the airbag were to deploy, it would have killed the baby. The type of accident likely to happen in traffic (slow speed rear or frontal collision) has a high likelihood of deploying the air bags.

I would pitch an ever living fit if someone removed their baby from the car seat in my car. In fact I would not allow it. DD is properly restrained every time we drive, as you never can tell when you will need the car seat until it is too late.


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

I think it looks like a 5-pt, you can see how the straps come down from the shoulders, loop through the buckles and then go off to attach at the sides as well.

That said I agree to some extent - I could not believe the number of small children I see in cars in the UK without carseats let alone the number of carseats/small children in front seats (maybe they have no front passenger airbags). I find it especially odd since the UK fairly recently upped the age of mandatory carseat/booster seat use to something like 10 years and 65 lbs (can't remember exactly - but it seemed much more stringent than the LAWS in the US).

Also I cannot even conceive of taking a child out of a carseat in central Rome. I would not even take my own seatbelt off in Rome let alone take a child out of a carseat. I feared for my life on the streets in Rome!!







:


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Edited: there are 2 straps coming from the shoulders and hips that join in the centre to connect to a thing between the legs. Is that 5-point harness?? To me it would be 3-point harness because you are only connecting 3 straps together, in effect.

5pt harness means that it goes back into the carseat in 5 places. A 3pt harness only goes into the carseat at the shoulders and between the legs so a child could wiggle out sideways.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yep. It's 5pt.

-Angela


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I have A LOT to say about this (we lived in Europe, dh is from Europe, dh's family has issues with our safety concerns), but I don't have time now. I will subscribe and come back to this thread as is it of great interest to me.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

It's an European 5pt, which means no chest clip. The chest clip isn't needed for safety and Europeans require a one handed release seat.

I guess I care more about my child's life then their emotional well being b/c if they are crying in they car, they stay in their seat till we can safely stop. If my friend ever did that while I was in their car, they would've heard about it for a long time...


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## Ersbett (Apr 7, 2007)

Oh, I've done what your friend did with her baby(mind me I'm Spaniard), I don't think it's irresponsable, she totally hates the car seat, and I can't calm her with anything at all, I do go back with her sometimes.
We don't use a carseat for 5 year old DD, she sometimes rides in the front seat.

DH and I are both Europeans, 100%
No flames please!! I will explain more about it later, I'm interested to see velochic's post.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intorainbowz* 
I believe my DD's emotional well being is very important, but my first job as a parent is to protect her physical well being. Because without physical well being, there is no emotional well being. Bluntly, you cannot AP a dead child. Heavy traffic is very dangerous, as I'm sure you are aware.

I'm not quite sure it's that simple, which is why I do not dispute the Italian mindset. If risk of injuring emotional well-being and the risk of physical injury or death were equal, I would agree with your point. But what if the risk of physical injury or death were 1 in 5000 but the risk of emotional damage were 75% or even 100%?

I have no idea what the risks to emotional well-being are but if we are to buy into the whole AP argument about CIO being harmful to babies then I am not sure why CIO would not be just as harmful to babies in carseats. The baby does not know why it is not being responded to, after all. And if the risk of physical injury or death is statistically much much lower, then I understand the desire to respond to the child's emotional needs.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Well, I definitely wouldn't do that here, accidents are common and the main streets have a speed limit of 40 mph but people rarely drive below 50 mph. -On the main STREETS, the highways are a completely different matter. People also run red lights like there is no light and swerve around other people without looking. I am afraid to walk on the sidewalks here for good reason. (Look at the brick walls that line the streets, every couple of blocks they have huge holes.)

Here, I stop the car and get DD out but really I have only had to do that a few times. Now that DD is a little older, I feel completely comfortable telling her that she has to wait for me to stop the car. She understands "stop the car" and "park". Her feelings do take a priority, which she knows, but safety is also very important. I do try to accomodate her when possible.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
It's an European 5pt, which means no chest clip. The chest clip isn't needed for safety and Europeans require a one handed release seat.

Thanks for the clarification.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

That is a five-point seat









I, too, care just as much about my child's psychological health as his physical safety, but I would never, ever, ever remove a child from a seat in a moving vehicle barring a true emergency. I think that would be horribly irresponsible.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

You do not have to endanger your child's life to respond to her emotional needs.







:


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## Ersbett (Apr 7, 2007)

Ugh that makes me sound awful.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

I have no idea what the risks to emotional well-being are but if we are to buy into the whole AP argument about CIO being harmful to babies then I am not sure why CIO would not be just as harmful to babies in carseats.
It isn't CIO if your child is crying and you comfort it by talking to your child, even if you can't pick up your child until you can safely stop.

Ersbett, you let her in the front seat? Do you have airbags?

I don't think the point of taking them out is to keep from injuring their emotional well being, and like someone said, you don't have to let them cry, most of the time you can pull over. The peach80, what do you mean about the chest clip not being needed? Seems it would keep them in the seat better? My son's straps can easily fall off his shoulders without the clip.


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## Ersbett (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Ersbett, you let her in the front seat? Do you have airbags?

Yes, I have airbags.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

:


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Well, can you turn them off? If not, you feel okay about having a five year old in the front seat, where they could be killed from the air bag deploying in an accident ?


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

I can't think of any situation in which I'd take DD out of her car seat while the car is moving. Of course, I'm also the kind of person who won't move my car out of the driveway when I'm blocking in DH without putting on a seatbelt! It just feels wrong to me to have the car moving and no belt on.


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## Ersbett (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Well, can you turn them off? If not, you feel okay about having a five year old in the front seat, where they could be killed from the air bag deploying in an accident ?

I always turn them off, thankyou.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Nother blunt post here...

My mom is a paramedic. She has picked a dead baby up off the freeway whose parents were shattered because the mom had taken the baby out of the car seat for "just a second". The mom, dad and sibling who were properly restrained where unharmed, except for the devastating loss of the baby.

My mom has seen what airbags to do children. Again it is not a pretty picture. Children belong in the back seat, never in the front seat.

When you have a baby CIO... you leave the baby alone to CIO. You check in, but pretty much ignore your child. When DD is crying in her car seat, I am right there to talk to her and to turn on Johnny Cash for her. Again, I tell her what is going on, and why she must stay in her seat. I tell her how many stoplights to go, etc. I tell her how much I love her and how I must keep her safe. When we get where we are going she gets big hugs.

I don't believe that I am emotionally harming her. However I believe that parents who transport their children unrestrained are irresponsible, full stop. If the child is crying that badly get off the freeway and pull over in a parking lot.

No amount of cultural justification will change my mind. My job as her mom is to protect her safety first. Last time I checked, the laws of physics applied the same in the US as in Europe.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

I could have written the same post intorainbowz. My partner is an ER nurse, and she has heard the stories of paramedics spending an hour looking on the side of the freeway for a dead baby who was ejected in a crash. Or the improperly restrained child (front seat five year old, no booster, just a seat belt) who ended up a part of the dash after an accident. Sorry Ersbett, I am not trying to pick on you, seriously, it happened. I am glad you can turn your airbags off, but my child won't be riding in the front of the car until at least 13, probably a few years after that even. Unrestrained children end up dead in accidents, it is a fact of life. I have learned many ways to comfort my child while driving a car, music being the biggest one. Like I said, too many stories from my partner's work, where kids end up dead, and she ends up witnessing the results of these children not being restrained properly.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
I could have written the same post intorainbowz. My partner is an ER nurse, and she has heard the stories of paramedics spending an hour looking on the side of the freeway for a dead baby who was ejected in a crash. Or the improperly restrained child (front seat five year old, no booster, just a seat belt) who ended up a part of the dash after an accident. Sorry Ersbett, I am not trying to pick on you, seriously, it happened. I am glad you can turn your airbags off, but my child won't be riding in the front of the car until at least 13, probably a few years after that even. Unrestrained children end up dead in accidents, it is a fact of life. I have learned many ways to comfort my child while driving a car, music being the biggest one. Like I said, too many stories from my partner's work, where kids end up dead, and she ends up witnessing the results of these children not being restrained properly.

My mom has participated in the heart breaking search for a dead baby who was ejected. She found the baby. She felt so heartbroken that the baby was alone in the cold for hours while they looked. There was a bad snow storm going on, and the snow covered the baby, while they looked. It took a dog team to find the baby. Thankfully it was very clear that the baby had died from the impact, not due to hypothermia. My mother was changed by that accident, and has become a loud advocate for stricter car seat guidelines because of this.

Just remember that when you have your child unrestrained. I'd rather have my DD unhappy then alone in the cold.

I'm not flaming anyone, just educating on a topic I am very passionate about.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

I don't get how letting a kid cry in the carseat is in any way the same thing as letting them CIO. You are not doing it to teach them to "self sooth" or whatever... you are doing what is necessary to keep them safe. I will let my kids cry in the carseat over having them die in an accident any day....

Veronica


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Oh, I don't see how anyone can argue w/ Wendy's post







: . I would not take even a _1 millionth of a percent_ chance of such a thing happening to my babies if it could be prevented by restraining them properly.

I buckle them into their car seats when I drive from Target to Costco, and both stores are in the same parking lot--just too far to walk if it's really windy and cold.

My dd will rear-face until she is probably over four years old (about 35 lbs at the rate she's going) and both kids will sit in a 5-point harness until they are 53 inches tall.

~A proud overprotective American mommy

ETA: This thread inspired me to change my sig!!!


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

I've taken my baby out of her carseat, when she was a NB and the road was empty. I did turn the airbag off. After reading this thread, I doubt I'll do it again.

One thing I will do and feel that the risk/benefit ratio isn't too bad is put the baby up front if she can be buckled in (my car has a seatbelt that doesn't work with her carseat, the truck can do this safely) correctly and the airbag can be turned off. I do this when we're just going to town and the weather is nice. If we're going to the city or the weather is bad, she goes in the back.


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
Oh, I don't see how anyone can argue w/ Wendy's post







: . I would not take even a _1 millionth of a percent_ chance of such a thing happening to my babies if it could be prevented by restraining them properly.

I buckle them into their car seats when I drive from Target to Costco, and both stores are in the same parking lot--just too far to walk if it's really windy and cold.

My dd will rear-face until she is probably over four years old (about 35 lbs at the rate she's going) and both kids will sit in a 5-point harness until they are 53 inches tall.

~A proud overprotective American mommy

ETA: This thread inspired me to change my sig!!!

How do you rear face a child that size? If I rear faced my 3.5 y/o DD who is not more than 32 lbs her legs would be up around her ears.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Links on extended rear facing
http://www.car-safety.org/rearface.html
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/StayRearFacing.aspx

Photo link with pictures of children extended rear facing
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbumAll.aspx

My son was rear facing to the limit of his car seat, he was almost 3 and weighed 33 lbs. His legs were bent, but they weren't around his ears, and he was quite comfortable.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
How do you rear face a child that size? If I rear faced my 3.5 y/o DD who is not more than 32 lbs her legs would be up around her ears.









Which is perfectly safe and fine. Children are flexible and don't mind.


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Which is perfectly safe and fine. Children are flexible and don't mind.

Maybe your children don't mind...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Which is perfectly safe and fine. Children are flexible and don't mind.











My dd puts her legs all sorts of places, but is still rearfacing. MUCH safer.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Maybe your children don't mind...









It's simply not a choice. Just like being strapped in.

-Angela


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
How do you rear face a child that size? If I rear faced my 3.5 y/o DD who is not more than 32 lbs her legs would be up around her ears.









The PP gave you some great info, and here is a good youtube video. It shows what happens in a crash w/ a FF and w/ a RF child. It also has tons of pics of "big kids" RF.






At first I had the same reaction as you. But those pics made me think a child would be more comfy sitting RF than with their legs dangling anyway. And it emphasizes that, even if there had been reports of broken legs from a crash (which there haven't), that would be better than a broken neck, etc.


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Is having the legs twisted/mangled/smashed safer than what would happen forward facing in a snug 5pt harness (chest clip also) that allows almost no movement?

Travelling in cars/planes/buses/trains just plain scare me.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Is having the legs twisted/mangled/smashed safer than what would happen forward facing in a snug 5pt harness (chest clip also) that allows almost no movement?

Travelling in cars/planes/buses/trains just plain scare me.









Yes. WORST case, RF a leg gets broken. Worst case FF a neck snaps.

Legs are a lot easier to fix.

Rear facing is always safer.

-Angela


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Is having the legs twisted/mangled/smashed safer than what would happen forward facing in a snug 5pt harness (chest clip also) that allows almost no movement?


Yes, but I think we posted at the same time so you probably didn't have a chance to watch the video yet.

Also, speaking of Europe, I believe in the Scandanavian countries at least, children rear-face until age 3 or 4.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9916868/page/2/
That link doesn't really clarify it but I have read that somewhere else...maybe someone else knows.

Can you tell this is my current soap box issue? Dh is tired of it


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
The PP gave you some great info, and here is a good youtube video. It shows what happens in a crash w/ a FF and w/ a RF child. It also has tons of pics of "big kids" RF.






At first I had the same reaction as you. But those pics made me think a child would be more comfy sitting RF than with their legs dangling anyway. And it emphasizes that, even if there had been reports of broken legs from a crash (which there haven't), that would be better than a broken neck, etc.

Thanks! NOW it makes sense. I thought there would still be head snapping in rear facing too. Now to convince DH.


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

That video explains a lot, thanks.

So my girls will turn 5 next month and still weigh 35 lbs each. They are in britax roundabouts, but have just about outgrown the height for them. The seatbelt starts about 1/2 inch below their shoulders. They are 42".

What kind of seat should I get next? Surely they can't rearface anymore?


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Thanks! NOW it makes sense. I thought there would still be head snapping in rear facing too. Now to convince DH.

Yiipppeee!!


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CurlyTop* 
That video explains a lot, thanks.

So my girls will turn 5 next month and still weigh 35 lbs each. They are in britax roundabouts, but have just about outgrown the height for them. The seatbelt starts about 1/2 inch below their shoulders. They are 39".

What kind of seat should I get next? Surely they can't rearface anymore?

I mean they are 42" and 35 lbs.


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CurlyTop* 
I mean they are 42" and 35 lbs.


A Britax Regent







: or an Apex. I personally love the Regent, it rocks!! Your kiddos can stay harnessed for at least another 3-4 years. I'm all about the extended harnessing.

Although fitting 2 Regents or Apexes might be tricky depending on your car. They're big seats. If you don't mind telling me what you drive, than I could be able to help you out with figuring if they'll fit


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSavannahsMommy* 
A Britax Regent







: or an Apex. I personally love the Regent, it rocks!! Your kiddos can stay harnessed for at least another 3-4 years. I'm all about the extended harnessing.

Although fitting 2 Regents or Apexes might be tricky depending on your car. They're big seats. If you don't mind telling me what you drive, than I could be able to help you out with figuring if they'll fit









Thank you Miss! We have a 2002 Honda Odyssey minivan. They each have their own "captains" seat (middle row) so I think just about any seat will fit. What do you think?

Many of my friends have moved to booster seats. My kids are so slim, I think harnesses are a good idea.


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CurlyTop* 
Thank you Miss! We have a 2002 Honda Odyssey minivan. They each have their own "captains" seat (middle row) so I think just about any seat will fit. What do you think?

Sounds great to me!!! Here's a website I have with instructions on how to install in a Odyssey







http://www.car-safety.org/husky.html A Husky is an older version of the Regent. Same size and features, just under a new name









I know TinyRide has certain Regents in stock. http://www.tinyride.com/Britax-Regent-P977.aspx If you click on my CPST linky thing in my siggy, that's a pic of my DD in a Regent. She's 4 1/2, 45 inches and she's between 42-45lbs and she has TONS of growing room left


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Thanks! NOW it makes sense. I thought there would still be head snapping in rear facing too. Now to convince DH.

Ha ha, like I said, my dh is tired of hearing about this issue. BUT he takes forever to do anything I ask him to do, so asking him to turn the car seat around will take three years anyway


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSavannahsMommy* 
Sounds great to me!!! Here's a website I have with instructions on how to install in a Odyssey







http://www.car-safety.org/husky.html A Husky is an older version of the Regent. Same size and features, just under a new name









I know TinyRide has certain Regents in stock. http://www.tinyride.com/Britax-Regent-P977.aspx If you click on my CPST linky thing in my siggy, that's a pic of my DD in a Regent. She's 4 1/2, 45 inches and she's between 42-45lbs and she has TONS of growing room left









Your DD looks so happy in that seat









$255 each!!! Oh, my, my heart. I should have known, though, britax. When I catch my breath, I'll think clearly about this.

Thank you for the links! and help!


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSavannahsMommy* 
A Britax Regent







: or an Apex. I personally love the Regent, it rocks!! Your kiddos can stay harnessed for at least another 3-4 years. I'm all about the extended harnessing.


Oh man, now I have to change my sig again! Extended harnessing is my other soap box issue.

JK, no room to go into the extended harnessing. I'll wait on that.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myhoneyswife* 
I've taken my baby out of her carseat, when she was a NB and the road was empty. I did turn the airbag off. After reading this thread, I doubt I'll do it again.

One thing I will do and feel that the risk/benefit ratio isn't too bad is put the baby up front if she can be buckled in (my car has a seatbelt that doesn't work with her carseat, the truck can do this safely) correctly and the airbag can be turned off. I do this when we're just going to town and the weather is nice. If we're going to the city or the weather is bad, she goes in the back.

Just an FYI, but a child riding in the front seat, properly restrained and the air bag disabled is _still_ 35% more likely to be severely injured during an impact than the same child restrained in the back seat.

Of course, if you have a truck such that the only suitable location is the front seat, then you gotta do what you gotta do. But I'd never put a child in the front seat if there was a back seat available. In fact, in some states it's illegal to do so.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Silvercrest79* 
Now to convince DH.

There would be no convincing here. I have the user manual and know how to read.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

In the state of Michigan we have a nursing exemption to our carseat rules. The one time I am not in favor of pro-nursing legislation. My children are always harnessed. DD is my carseat police. She instructs everyone in the car to buckle up!!

My mom and sister were nearly killed in a crash 14 years ago. My sister was only 7 and was in the front seat (no airbag) both were buckled up. She hit her head and had to have emergency brain surgery. She nearly died. She had to wear a helmet for close to a year until her skull was fully healed. She has virtually no memory of her life before age seven. She still has short-term memory loss. When did this happen? On a sunny day in July, on a short drive to Grandma's house. My mom crested a blind hill to find a car in her path, swerved to avoid the car and hit a tree, head on at 45 MPH. So, was it worth it for my sister to sit in the front? Ask her... I suspect she will say it wasn't. Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. My kids (and passengers) are always buckled up.


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

I have a q do US car seat laws apply to citizens abroad? cause i live on okinawa ad there are no child restraint laws and i've taken dd out when we were stopped or rolling(i'm talking 2 hours of it and she had started to panic) in traffic jams.... I think thats more of the situation the OP's friend had and i think it coud be acceptable







:


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CurlyTop* 
Your DD looks so happy in that seat









$255 each!!! Oh, my, my heart. I should have known, though, britax. When I catch my breath, I'll think clearly about this.

Thank you for the links! and help!

It's pennies a day when you break it down. I don't expect my DD to grow out of that seat for at least another 3-4 years. Seriously, if she used it everyday for the next 3 years, i'd be .04 cents a day. Totally worth it IMO. I know it's an intial cost thing, not to mention you have two to my one, but it'll be worth every penny!


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treqi* 
I have a q do US car seat laws apply to citizens abroad?

I doubt it, then again i'm not 100% sure. You should have your child restrained at all times but you need to make sure they're restraint when you're back in the US. Well, you should have your child restrained 100% of the time no matter what country. Just because the "law" there is different doesn't mean it's "safe". Laws are BARE MINIMUMS, not standards of practice, especially when there is so much evidence that advocates car seat safety and its importance. No one can honestly deny the importance of car safety. I'm not implying that anyone here is a bad driver or doesn't love their kid or anything of that sort. I can honestly say that i'm not worried about my driving whatsoever when i'm out on the road, i'm worried about everyone else thats driving. People do some crazy things in the car!!!


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## april77 (Apr 26, 2003)

Quote:

=JThe peach80, what do you mean about the chest clip not being needed? Seems it would keep them in the seat better? My son's straps can easily fall off his shoulders without the clip.
Not an expert here, but from what I've picked up on other (car seat) boards, European seats are designed very differently than US seats. Makes sense, since they have to comply to different laws/regulations/etc. The straps are meant to stay in place without the chest clip but US seats aren't designed too.


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## roadfamily6now (Sep 14, 2006)

we must have 50 different kinds of car seats here to choose from
And to top it all off, each state has different rules or laws as to what age is the cut off for car seats and boosters.

Plus with a 1000 different models of cars on the market, the car seat you have MIGHT NOT even fit your car!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I've never seen a restrained child in a car where my dh's family lives. That includes Italy, Greece & Portugal. The kids sit on laps, in the front, back, on laps etc. They are not even restrained. When I've been shocked, they laugh & think i am just another over-protective American. I've also never seen a child in a bike helmet, either. Not even when sitting on a scooter with a parent. That degree of child saefty is purely American, ime.

My dh's family includes professors, lawyers and docotrs, so it's not about education. And none of his nephews or nieces have large families. Most of them have 1 kid (I've never even seen a modern Italian family with more than one child, ftr), so lack of space in the car isn't the issue.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Okay, I'm curious to hear what some other Europeans think of it. I'm guessing they drive less than Americans though. That doesn't make it any safer, but statistically speaking, you'd think they'd have more deadly accidents involving children if they had more children unrestrained and drove as much as us. Then again, I thought some European countries were way ahead of us wrt carseat safety (thinking Sweden here, where they rearface way longer.)

Hate to hijack, but while I have the attention of some brainy carseat techs, can I ask why it's safer to tether my marathon rf? The local tech here just used a pool noodle (for a very slight angle to give my oddler a tad more room) and said it's just as safe. ?? I got links from the carseat board, but they didn't actually answer that. Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?

And someone mentioned airbags. Why are they unsafe for kids if they protect adults? (not that mine ride in front, but just wondering.)


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## MissSavannahsMommy (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Hate to hijack, but while I have the attention of some brainy carseat techs, can I ask why it's safer to tether my marathon rf? The local tech here just used a pool noodle (for a very slight angle to give my oddler a tad more room) and said it's just as safe. ?? I got links from the carseat board, but they didn't actually answer that. Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?

I'll PM you about this so I don't clog









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
And someone mentioned airbags. Why are they unsafe for kids if they protect adults? (not that mine ride in front, but just wondering.)

They're unsafe for kiddos because air bags are meant to prevent ejection for a normal adult. They're meant to stop you from flying through the windshield or doing massive damage to your head when you fly forward during an impact.

We actually deployed an airbag with an Evenflo infant seat in our parking lot at tech class and it totally decapitated the baby. Not nicely decapitated either, like legs went one way, head went another, arms another, and then the body wasn't even in the seat anymore. Air bags HURT when they deploy. Simply put, they're just not meant for children. Now newer cars have advanced airbags that only expolde a certain amount if it senses a certain weight sitting in the saeat. So for instance, if you are sitting in the drivers seat, your airbag will fully explode to it's maximum compacity because the amount of force you exert would be greater than a 50 lb child sitting next to you in the passenger seat. If your child was sitting in the front seat, only half of the airbag would deploy to minimize any head trauma while still preventing ejection.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Hate to hijack, but while I have the attention of some brainy carseat techs, can I ask why it's safer to tether my marathon rf? .....

Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?

And someone mentioned airbags. Why are they unsafe for kids if they protect adults? (not that mine ride in front, but just wondering.)

Safer to tether because it reduces motion in an accident.

In our Civic the front passenger seat is not that far forward. Also, with Britax seats the seat in front can be right up against the carseat- bracing it (not all brands allow for this)

Airbags- designed to protect someone weighing around 160-200lbs I believe. To cushion that in an accident requires a lot of force. Enough force to easily kill a child.

-Angela


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Airbags- designed to protect someone weighing around 160-200lbs I believe. To cushion that in an accident requires a lot of force. Enough force to easily kill a child.

-Angela

Again from my mother's work experience, she responded to a call where a grandma hit a curb in a parking lot, and the airbag paralized the 8 year old sitting unrestrained in the front.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Just an FYI, but a child riding in the front seat, properly restrained and the air bag disabled is still 35% more likely to be severely injured during an impact than the same child restrained in the back seat.

Of course, if you have a truck such that the only suitable location is the front seat, then you gotta do what you gotta do. But I'd never put a child in the front seat if there was a back seat available. In fact, in some states it's illegal to do so.
Can you direct me to where you got the 35% number?
Also, in what states is it against the law to have a child ride in the front seat if there is a back seat available?
Thanks


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-698.PDF


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Airbags- designed to protect someone weighing around 160-200lbs I believe. To cushion that in an accident requires a lot of force. Enough force to easily kill a child.

That's a pretty sexist piece of equipment then, given that most women (at least in Europe!!) weigh less than that. I weigh 125 pounds. Should I turn off the airbag?

DD weighs 15 kg (about 33 pounds?) and we have never had facing the back in the car. To tell you the truth, I have never seen carseats in reverse in France or Italy. I don't even know how I would attach our carseat that way.

I still do not see the difference between leaving a baby to soothe himself to sleep, with you standing beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la "Ferber" and you sitting beside a newborn baby who is crying in her carseat, telling her "there there, we will be home soon". Both are a form of leaving a baby to cry, the only difference being that the latter is necessary for safety reasons.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
I still do not see the difference between leaving a baby to soothe himself to sleep, with you standing beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la "Ferber" and you sitting beside a newborn baby who is crying in her carseat, telling her "there there, we will be home soon". Both are a form of leaving a baby to cry, *the only difference being that the latter is necessary for safety reasons.*

But that's a pretty important, meaningful, significant difference...


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

Couple of questions









I have the Cosco (I think) carseat that was on sale at Walmart a few months ago. To get it at the correct levelness I use the tether, and tether to a metal piece below the passenger front seat. Safe? It moves less than if I roll up towels to put under it.

I'm 140 lbs when not pg. Turn off the airbag up front for me when I'm not driving? When I'm driving I'm just SOL?

Should I turn off the airbag when I'm pg? I did toward the end of my pregnancy last time even though I got up around 200 lbs.

Then, just curious.. We have a Dodge 1 ton diesel truck and a Pontiac Grand Am car. Safer for her to be up front (airbag off) in the truck or back/middle in the car. I'm thinking that she's safer even up front in the truck because our mass is just soo much more.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Ugh.. that freaks me out. I weigh 115 and I sit very close to the steering wheel because I'm only 5'. And I can't turn off my airbags. Lovely.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

So are you supposed to turn the airbag off when pregnant?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
Also, in what states is it against the law to have a child ride in the front seat if there is a back seat available?
Thanks

Honestly, what difference does it make? The laws of physics don't change from state to state.


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## mija (Sep 21, 2002)

In Washington state it's illegal for under 12s to be in the front seat if there is a back seat available (not taken up by younger siblings for instance). I also noticed a very relaxed attitude to car seats in the uk, and was surprised to see lots of kids in the front or sitting on cushions rather than in proper boosters. But cars tended not to spend much time at high speeds due to narrow congested roads. Also the level of driver training and alertness was much higher, and tolerance for drunk driving non existant. I wonder how the car injury stats compare? They had recently tightened the child seat laws like someone mentioned, and I think it was being a bit slow to catch on, but maybe if it's enforced it will soon?


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 

I still do not see the difference between leaving a baby to soothe himself to sleep, with you standing beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la "Ferber" and you sitting beside a newborn baby who is crying in her carseat, telling her "there there, we will be home soon". Both are a form of leaving a baby to cry, the only difference being that the latter is necessary for safety reasons.

You cannot stand beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la 'anyone' to a dead child. Argue the semantics of CIO versus riding in a car all you want, but I'd much rather have an emotionally damaged child due to riding in the car to get groceries, something I must have in the house to sustain myself, then have a dead child whom I scraped up off the side of the highway.


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija* 
In Washington state it's illegal for under 12s to be in the front seat if there is a back seat available (not taken up by younger siblings for instance). I also noticed a very relaxed attitude to car seats in the uk, and was surprised to see lots of kids in the front or sitting on cushions rather than in proper boosters. But cars tended not to spend much time at high speeds due to narrow congested roads. Also the level of driver training and alertness was much higher, and tolerance for drunk driving non existant. I wonder how the car injury stats compare? They had recently tightened the child seat laws like someone mentioned, and I think it was being a bit slow to catch on, but maybe if it's enforced it will soon?

I disagree. I mean, I agree with the relaxed attitude toward carseats/children in cars in the UK but I disagree with cars not spending as much time at high speeds - I found traffic in London moved more quickly than traffic in the Seattle area *in general*, and it was just as fast on Motorways and even some A roads which I thought were entirely too twisty to be driving that fast. I diagree entirely with the level of driver training being higher - the UK driving test is much more difficult, but it's not down to *skill*, it's down to memorising and doing certain things during your exam (IE do not cross your hands over when turning, keep both hands stuck on the wheel; mirror-signal-mirror; all these pesky little things that do not affect the quality of your driving at all!) but I don't think it's harder and I certainly don't think it produces better drivers. And I really don't agree that drunk driving is not tolerated, at least among my colleagues in greater London it was not seen as a problem at all to have a few drinks and then drive home.. you know, just as long as you're not falling-down-drunk :-/ I would also argue that it is *more* dangerous around the London area because you have so many a) people who do not often drive and b) foreigners, not used to driving on the "wrong" side of the road. I actually wonder if a) doesn't play in to the carseat usage stats at least a little bit; if you don't own a car but have a child, you may feel justified in not using a carseat when you hire a car for that quick trip to Ikea...

Anyway, just my 2p - it will be interesting indeed to see how the new carseat regulations play out.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
That's a pretty sexist piece of equipment then, given that most women (at least in Europe!!) weigh less than that. I weigh 125 pounds. Should I turn off the airbag?

DD weighs 15 kg (about 33 pounds?) and we have never had facing the back in the car. To tell you the truth, I have never seen carseats in reverse in France or Italy. I don't even know how I would attach our carseat that way.

I still do not see the difference between leaving a baby to soothe himself to sleep, with you standing beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la "Ferber" and you sitting beside a newborn baby who is crying in her carseat, telling her "there there, we will be home soon". Both are a form of leaving a baby to cry, the only difference being that the latter is necessary for safety reasons.

To me, this is what it comes down to, a baby doesn't NEED to learn to CIO. A baby does NEED to stay safe.
It's actually that simple for me. It felt lousy to hear my sweet baby crying but I did everything I could think of to comfort her and traveled at times when I thought she was most likely to fall asleep.
(Also, I do think it's okay to let a baby cry if, as a mama, you are just going to lose it. I never did this--babyhood, even the really hard crying parts, don't stress me out that way. Ask me about toddlerhood--but that's a different thread. Anyhow, I would completely support a mother who needed to put her baby down in a safe environment to help herself become calm because that too would be safer for the baby.)
I don't think AP should be the extreme that some people on this board make it out to be. AP isn't a contest with a prize for the mama who never used a bottle/stroller/pacifer/crib/babyswing. Sometimes babies cry and it's awful to hear. It's supposed to be awful to hear because we are supposed to meet their needs. In this case, the carseat case, I'd much rather have a crying baby than a dead one.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
So are you supposed to turn the airbag off when pregnant?

No. You are supposed to "aim" the airbag up as much as possible, lower your seat as much as you can, and sit as far back. Ideally, whenever you drive your arms should be extended, with a slight bend in the elbows.

http://www.nsc.org/partners/deact/nhtsa-qa.htm#F
and
http://www.autotrader.com/research/s...nfo&restype=us

OT... but they seem to recommend that hugely pregnant women not drive because of the airbag/steering wheel issue. Yah right.









And yes, they are a rather sexist device. I have a client who is a little person, and we went though HELL to get permission to shut off her driver airbag so she could drive a car without worrying about the airbag killing her.


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## ScotiaSky (Jul 2, 2004)

Just want to bump this post so someone with knowledge will answer it.

Is it a Cosco seat? or another brand?
Is it rear facing or forward facing?
Because by the wording of the post it sounds like you have it rear facing and tethered? Is this true?
I am sure someone will be able to answer your questions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myhoneyswife* 
Couple of questions









I have the Cosco (I think) carseat that was on sale at Walmart a few months ago. To get it at the correct levelness I use the tether, and tether to a metal piece below the passenger front seat. Safe? It moves less than if I roll up towels to put under it.

I'm 140 lbs when not pg. Turn off the airbag up front for me when I'm not driving? When I'm driving I'm just SOL?

Should I turn off the airbag when I'm pg? I did toward the end of my pregnancy last time even though I got up around 200 lbs.

Then, just curious.. We have a Dodge 1 ton diesel truck and a Pontiac Grand Am car. Safer for her to be up front (airbag off) in the truck or back/middle in the car. I'm thinking that she's safer even up front in the truck because our mass is just soo much more.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myhoneyswife* 
Couple of questions








I'm 140 lbs when not pg. Turn off the airbag up front for me when I'm not driving? When I'm driving I'm just SOL?

Should I turn off the airbag when I'm pg? I did toward the end of my pregnancy last time even though I got up around 200 lbs.

Then, just curious.. We have a Dodge 1 ton diesel truck and a Pontiac Grand Am car. Safer for her to be up front (airbag off) in the truck or back/middle in the car. I'm thinking that she's safer even up front in the truck because our mass is just soo much more.

According to the NTSB the answer to deactivating your airbag is no... http://www.nsc.org/partners/deact/nhtsa-qa.htm

I don't know the difference between the truck and the car as far as safety wise. I do know that car seats are not designed to be used sideways, and should never be used on the jump type seats in trucks, which are sideways in the car.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

nak.

As a person whom has been the victim of airbag deployment twice in one month, They f***'n HURT! I have bruises to prove it, and my glasses broken too. The first time I was shocked that they went off, because, it was just a fender-bender. Children definitely belong in the back seat.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

We knew a couple in California. One day, the mother took the infant out of his car seat to nurse. A cop pulled them over and cited the father for "felony child endangerment" for driving with an unrestrained infant.

My DH and DS were rear-ended a couple years ago. DS was 6 and was in daily pain for over a year. Thank goodness he was restrained in a full back booster! DH had far worse injuries, permanent ones. If DS had not been restrained, I shudder to think how bad his injuries could have been.

It is easy to insist that everyone is buckled up before the vehicle moves. When children see that the rules to apply to everyone in the vehicle, for safety reasons, it seems fair. Whenever my infants cried while I was driving, I would simply pull over as soon as I could to help, meanwhile singing songs and expressing my caring so that baby always knew he or she was never alone.


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ScotiaSky* 
Just want to bump this post so someone with knowledge will answer it.

Is it a Cosco seat? or another brand?
Is it rear facing or forward facing?
Because by the wording of the post it sounds like you have it rear facing and tethered? Is this true?
I am sure someone will be able to answer your questions.

Cosco, I just checked
Rear facing (that's why we bought the cosco, it looks like it can RF pretty tall and didn't cost an entire paycheck)
Tethered, yeah, I just find something metal under the passenger seat. It goes directly back if she's IN the passenger seat (truck), but if she's in the car, it's sorta to the side.

Thanks!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Does the manual say you can tether RF? There are just a handful of seats on the market designed that way.

-Angela


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Kind of OT, but I think we should have a carseat forum. Full of stickies, and moderators who are car seat techs. I think it would be great!


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Oh, I don't see how anyone can argue w/ Wendy's post . I would not take even a 1 millionth of a percent chance of such a thing happening to my babies if it could be prevented by restraining them properly.

I buckle them into their car seats when I drive from Target to Costco, and both stores are in the same parking lot--just too far to walk if it's really windy and cold.

My dd will rear-face until she is probably over four years old (about 35 lbs at the rate she's going) and both kids will sit in a 5-point harness until they are 53 inches tall.

~A proud overprotective American mommy
http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_HMCs.htm

Quote:

Children accounted for a higher share of road casualties in the UK and USA than in other countries, for example, twice as high as that in Italy and Spain. The UK casualty involvement for the under 9's is over three times that of Italy's. Differences such as these are related to social patterns (e.g. whether children walk to school, whether they are accompanied and whether journeys are made in daylight) and, they could also be related to population distribution.
I chose Italy because it was mentioned in this thread that children there are often not restrained, sitting on laps, ect..
I guess the judgement about taking chances with your child is just a little much for me when in the US you are taking a risk putting them in the car at all, even if they are rear facing in their britex.
The people harping on European culture and car seats seem to not acknowledge that even with all of the safety measures we "overprotective American mommies" employ we are still putting our children at risk driving here.


----------



## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myhoneyswife* 
Cosco, I just checked
Rear facing (that's why we bought the cosco, it looks like it can RF pretty tall and didn't cost an entire paycheck)
Tethered, yeah, I just find something metal under the passenger seat. It goes directly back if she's IN the passenger seat (truck), but if she's in the car, it's sorta to the side.

Thanks!

Nope, you cannot tether the seat rear-facing. Currently, the only seats sold in the US that permit rear-facing tethers are Britax seats and the Sunshine Kids Radian. That, btw, is one of the reasons so many of us love our Britaxes and Radians -- extra safety features that aren't available on other seats.


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## ScotiaSky (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myhoneyswife* 
Cosco, I just checked
Rear facing (that's why we bought the cosco, it looks like it can RF pretty tall and didn't cost an entire paycheck)
Tethered, yeah, I just find something metal under the passenger seat. It goes directly back if she's IN the passenger seat (truck), but if she's in the car, it's sorta to the side.

Thanks!

Off hand I only know of a couple brands that do RF and tethered and I am not sure that any Cosco's do. But I am by no means an expert at this so perhaps a CPST can help you.
What is the seats name?
I currently own two Cosco's one of which is called the Touriva(sp) and the Eddie Bauer 3/1 and neither allow for tethering while RF. Our Britax Marathon and soon to be bought Radian does however.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
I chose Italy because it was mentioned in this thread that children there are often not restrained, sitting on laps, ect..
I guess the judgement about taking chances with your child is just a little much for me when in the US you are taking a risk putting them in the car at all, even if they are rear facing in their britex.
The people harping on European culture and car seats seem to not acknowledge that even with all of the safety measures we "overprotective American mommies" employ we are still putting our children at risk driving here.

Ok, Kalimay....what would YOU suggest we do? We have been talking about wether it is safe to have unrestrained children. My answer to that anywhere on this planet is no. Should we all walk? In a perfect world that might be the answer, but I don't see that happening. I and I'm sure most moms on this thread do not have the luxury of living in a walkable community.

Statistics or no, I still find having an unrestrained child an unreasonable risk. We are talking about taking known risks and making them less.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour* 
Ugh.. that freaks me out. I weigh 115 and I sit very close to the steering wheel because I'm only 5'. And I can't turn off my airbags. Lovely.

I weight a lot more than you, but am your same height. It _is_ pretty scary to think that you're body is not in the proportion as the dummies they tested the airbags with.

However, the good news is that manufacturers are doing more these days to account for differences in drivers. My new car, an '07, has several sensors that determine my weight and the position of my seat. It uses that data to adjust the force the airbag deploys. Of course these features are only available on newer cars, but it won't be too long before they're standard on all cars.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Honestly, what difference does it make? The laws of physics don't change from state to state.
I am just trying to get the facts. Someone said it was illigal in "some states" for a child to ride in front if a rear seat was available. I can't find any besides Washington. Does anyone know of any others? Thanks.

Also the link provided, I think to verify the 35% injury rate for children under the age of 12 riding in the front seat listed the rate as 26-35%.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Statistics or no, I still find having an unrestrained child an unreasonable risk. We are talking about taking known risks and making them less.
So I guess I am saying we should drive less, or judge less. The person I quoted was saying she puts her kids in the car to drive from costco to target in the same parking lot, but she harnesses them so it is all good.

People are judging the European car culture harshly when again I feel that we are putting our children at greater risk.

And yes, if we are taking about taking known risks and making them less, move to or work toward living in a more walkable community.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
I am just trying to get the facts. Someone said it was illigal in "some states" for a child to ride in front if a rear seat was available. I can't find any besides Washington. Does anyone know of any others? Thanks.

New Mexico is another.

Quote:

Also the link provided, I think to verify the 35% injury rate for children under the age of 12 riding in the front seat listed the rate as 26-35%.
Perhaps you don't feel this way, but when it comes to safety I go by the "worst case scenario". Even 26% is much too high of a chance to risk it. But it can be _up to_ 35%, then that's what I'm going with. Definitely not worth the risk either way, though.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
So I guess I am saying we should drive less, or judge less. The person I quoted was saying she puts her kids in the car to drive from costco to target in the same parking lot, but she harnesses them so it is all good.

Considering a significant percentage of accidents happen in parking lots, I do the same thing. I wouldn't say "it's all good", but I _would_ say that it's better than not having them restrained.

Quote:

People are judging the European car culture harshly when again I feel that we are putting our children at greater risk.
How are Americans putting their children at greater risk than Europeans?


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Kind of OT, but I think we should have a carseat forum. Full of stickies, and moderators who are car seat techs. I think it would be great!

psst... http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=625944







(please post)

DC


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
psst... http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=625944







(please post)

DC

YEAY!! Although I am somewhat bummed that it was not *my* idea.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

but if the stats for some european countries for fatalities is lower than here in the US than in Italy (15 per capita compared to 10 per capita) and in Italy children ride less often in cars and walk more than our kids here in the US do, then perhaps the chances of fatality is actually higher in cultures that don't use car seats like we do, because even while the rate is lower, it sounds like they are in the car much less? Makes perfect sense. So if say you live in Africa, where the fatality rate in car accidents per capita is probably very low, but you almost never ride in a car, when you DO ride in a car, your chances of being killed are much higher, get it?

so basically, yeah, the laws of physics still exist in these other countries, so when they take their kids out of a car seat, they are still putting their kid at risk.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

I guess the judgement about taking chances with your child is just a little much for me when in the US you are taking a risk putting them in the car at all, even if they are rear facing in their britex.
The people harping on European culture and car seats seem to not acknowledge that even with all of the safety measures we "overprotective American mommies" employ we are still putting our children at risk driving here.
The issue is putting the kid in the car, period. Be it in France, Italy, Japan, or the US. Fact is that US kids probably ride in cars more, hell, look at how big our country is compared to other countries? Mass transit exists less here, cities and towns are more spread out many times, one can take much longer car trips and our lack of decent city planning cuts down the ability to walk from place to place. So we spend more time in cars, that's just fact. And the fact is that every minute spent in cars makes us more likely to be in an accident, and car seats used properly protect us from being injured, or seriously injured in car accidents. I hardly view us as being overprotective, I mean, we could all just eschew seat belts and watch the death rates soar.


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Does the manual say you can tether RF? There are just a handful of seats on the market designed that way.

-Angela

Ack, no, I don't know where I got that... I just checked.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Did you know that if you were involved in a crash and were traveling 30 miles per hour, your 10 pound child would now weigh 300 pounds?

The weight times speed = restraining force

Also, Newton's theory of gravitation and motion states an object in motion continues to remain in motion at the original speed until acted on by an outside force.

It is essential that we always buckle our kids up even if we are going a short distance. DO NOT allow anyone to hold your child on their lap. Based on the scenario above, could you hold onto an object if it weighed 300 pounds? Something to think about.

*AIR BAGS:*

Air bags are proven, effective safety devices. From their introduction in the late 1980's through November 1, 1997, air bags saved about 2,620 people. The number of people saved increases each year as air bags become more common on America's roads.

However, the number of lives saved is not the whole story. Air bags are particularly effective in preventing life-threatening and debilitating head and chest injuries. A study of real-world crashes conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that the combination of seat belts and air bags is 75 percent effective in preventing serious head injuries and 66 percent effective in preventing serious chest injuries. That means 75 of every 100 people who would have suffered a serious head injury in a crash, and 66 out of 100 people who would have suffered chest injuries, were spared that fate because they wore seat belts and had air bags.

The one fact that is common to all who died is NOT their height, weight, sex, or age. Rather, it is the fact that they were too close to the air bag when it started to deploy. For some, this occurred because they were sitting too close to the air bag. More often this occurred because they were not restrained by seat belts or child safety seats and were thrown forward during pre-crash braking.

Beginning January 19, 1998, consumers can choose to have an on-off switch installed for the air bags in their vehicle.

*What is an on-off switch?*

An on-off switch allows an air bag to be turned on and off. The on-off switch can be installed for the driver, passenger, or both. To limit misuse, a key must be used to operate the on-off switch. When the air bag is turned off, a light comes on. There is a message on or near the light saying "DRIVER AIR BAG OFF" or "PASSENGER AIR BAG OFF." The air bag will remain off until the key is used to turn it back on.

The vast majority of people don't need an on-off switch. Almost everyone over age 12 is much safer with air bags than without them. This includes short people, tall people, older people, pregnant women -- in fact, all people, male or female, who buckle their seat belts and who can sit far enough back from their air bag. Ideally, you should sit with at least 10 inches between the center of your breastbone and the cover of your air bag. The nearer you can come to achieving the 10-inch distance, the lower your risk of being injured by the air bag and the higher your chance of being saved by the air bag. If you can get back almost 10 inches, the air bag will still help you in a crash.

*Should a pregnant woman get an on-off switch?*
No, not unless she is a member of a risk group. Pregnant women should follow the same advice as other adults: buckle up and stay back from the air bag. The lap belt should be positioned low on the abdomen, below the fetus, with the shoulder belt worn normally. Pull any slack out of the belt. Just as for everyone else, the greatest danger to a pregnant woman comes from slamming her head, neck or chest on the steering wheel in a crash. When crashes occur, the fetus can be injured by striking the lower rim of the steering wheel or from crash forces concentrated in the area where a seat belt crosses the mother's abdomen. By helping to restrain the upper chest, the seat belt will keep a pregnant woman as far as possible from the steering wheel. The air bag will spread out the crash forces that would otherwise be concentrated by the seat belt.

*There are 2 different types of occupant protection "systems".* In plain terms our cars are built with passive protection...features built in that do not need any outside action by the person, and there is active protection...as the name implies this requires the person to do something.
Passive examples: automatic safety belt systems, and all air bags.
Active examples: Manual safety belt systems, and child restraint systems (safety seat).

The air bags function is passive. They are designed to work in conjunction with and not exclusive of, your vehicle safety belts.
There are frontal air bags and side impact air bags. When one speaks of a side impact air bag, technically this also encompasses the "curtain" because technically speaking it is a side air bag device. I did not make that clear enough in my prior post.
Frontal air bags are typically for the driver, the front passenger, and/or the knee.
Side impact bags consist of the chest (door OR seat mounted), the chest/head combo (seat mounted), and the head only (roof rail mounted and is typically referred to as THE CURTAIN air bag.

Currently, crash testing shows the head only air bag (THE CURTAIN) has minimal interaction with kids seated in the outboard positions. As long as your CRS's are properly installed, there is little if any safety risk to your child when the CURTAIN deploys.

I want to reiterate that side impact air bags (EXCLUSIVE OF THE CURTAIN STYLE) should not be used if your children are seated in safety seats in outboard positions.
This is based on current crash testing. Someday this may change with the advent of new technological advances, but not for now.

The auto industry has developed voluntary test protocol for assessing these safety risks. Some of the info comes FROM the vehicle manufacturer's so use your own discretion. Check this out:

http://twg.iihs.org/
SCROLL DOWN TOWARDS THE BOTTOM. Pay particular attention to each of the files whose authors are the vehicle manufacturers. Interesting stuff if you have time to read all of it.

And lastly...here are some warning acronyms you may find in your vehicle and what they mean:
SRS - Supplemental Restraint System
SIR - Supplemental Inflatable Restraint
Air Bag
SIPS - Side Impact Protection System
SIAB - Side Impact Air Bag
IC - Inflatable Curtain

For more information on child passenger safety, please go to the MDC resource section found here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=429165

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
So I guess I am saying we should drive less, or judge less. The person I quoted was saying she puts her kids in the car to drive from costco to target in the same parking lot, but she harnesses them so it is all good.

People are judging the European car culture harshly when again I feel that we are putting our children at greater risk.

And yes, if we are taking about taking known risks and making them less, move to or work toward living in a more walkable community.

Okay, from piecing together the posts in which you refer to my post, I get what you are saying. You're saying based on the statistics about how we drive more than other countries, that it is safer to walk from one store to another than to drive, even if I harness and RF my kids.

Fair enough.

But that doesn't change the fact that in situations where it is not possible or not reasonable to walk, it is safer to be restrained than to be unrestrained. It is safer to rear-face than to FF, and it is safer to use a harness than to use a booster seat.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
But that doesn't change the fact that in situations where it is not possible or not reasonable to walk, it is safer to be restrained than to be unrestrained. It is safer to rear-face than to FF, and it is safer to use a harness than to use a booster seat.









:







:


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
Okay, from piecing together the posts in which you refer to my post, I get what you are saying. You're saying based on the statistics about how we drive more than other countries, that it is safer to walk from one store to another than to drive, even if I harness and RF my kids.

Fair enough.

But that doesn't change the fact that in situations where it is not possible or not reasonable to walk, it is safer to be restrained than to be unrestrained. It is safer to rear-face than to FF, and it is safer to use a harness than to use a booster seat.

But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it is safer (and more ecological and better for your health in general) to walk.

It is truly a ridiculous point to say that "I am so much more safety conscious than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats and only put my child in rear facing blah blah blah" when Europeans are in far greater numbers using the safer and healthier alternative of just walking from A to B.

Kind of like saying that you are so great because when you take your kids to McDonalds every week, you order the salad for them, whereas when I take my kids to McD _once a year_, I get them a Big Mac.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it is safer (and more ecological and better for your health in general) to walk.

It is truly a ridiculous point to say that "I am so much more safety conscious than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats and only put my child in rear facing blah blah blah" when Europeans are in far greater numbers using the safer and healthier alternative of just walking from A to B.

Kind of like saying that you are so great because when you take your kids to McDonalds every week, you order the salad for them, whereas when I take my kids to McD _once a year_, I get them a Big Mac.

I understand what you're saying, I really do.

But if there was a 25% chance of dying of a heart attack from eating that Big Mac once a year or a .5% chance of dying from a heart attack from eating that salad once a week. . .which would you take?

Different countries, different geographical layouts, and different cultures. But it's not safe, nor practical, to take the casual attitude about carseats and apply it to the US. Things are just so spread out in the US, particularly in the western half, that walking everywhere is not a possibility. And, as a result, we probably do spend much more time in the car than our European counterparts -- which statistically increases our chances of a fatal accident.

But in the end, knowing what I know now about car safety, I would not risk "eatingthat Big Mac once a year". Perhaps you would, but I would not. Sign me up for a proper child restraint every time, no matter where in the world I might be.


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it is safer (and more ecological and better for your health in general) to walk.

It is truly a ridiculous point to say that "I am so much more safety conscious than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats and only put my child in rear facing blah blah blah" when Europeans are in far greater numbers using the safer and healthier alternative of just walking from A to B.

Kind of like saying that you are so great because when you take your kids to McDonalds every week, you order the salad for them, whereas when I take my kids to McD _once a year_, I get them a Big Mac.

No, but it's certainly fair to say "I am safer IN THE CAR than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats".

Comparing being in a carseat in a car to walking is comparing apples to oranges. It is simply not a valid comparison.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crayolaab* 
No, but it's certainly fair to say "I am safer IN THE CAR than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats".

Comparing being in a carseat in a car to walking is comparing apples to oranges. It is simply not a valid comparison.









:

Sure, my kids are safest when we're not even in the car.

But you can't compare different situations. If you're talking about car riding, a harnessed kid is safer than an unharnessed kid.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

I would not take even a 1 millionth of a percent chance of such a thing happening to my babies if it could be prevented by restraining them properly.

Quote:

Considering a significant percentage of accidents happen in parking lots, I do the same thing. I wouldn't say "it's all good", but I would say that it's better than not having them restrained.
What I am getting at is that she could walk across the parking lot, even if it is cold rather than get back in the car.
And, and I am serious here, if she does not want to take "even the 1 millionth of a percent chance of a car injury" wouldn't she be better off having someone watch her children at home while she went to costco and target.
We make choices, and yes things are more spread out in the Western US but I still think Americans drive way more than they need to.

There is a parent at my daughter's preschool who sends out links to videos of children who have been fatally injured in auto accidents who might not have been had they been in 5 pt. harnesses. She is also very vocal about never driving a four or five year old in her car unless the parents send them with a britex. She comes off holier than thou and I think really believes that people who put their 4 year olds in booster seats do not care about their children as much as she cares about hers.
This same woman has chosen a coop preschool in the mountains that she has to get on the freeway for about 2 miles then drive up a windy mt. road for about 3 miles. There is a coop preschool 3 blocks from her home that she could walk to.

The way I see it, even in his carseat her son is at greater risk than he would be walking to school. And the poster I was quoting is putting her children at risk when there might be other alternatives to driving them to the store, and I think the self rightous attitude of how could you not be as safety conscious as I am is bugging me.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Also the link provided, I think to verify the 35% injury rate for children under the age of 12 riding in the front seat listed the rate as 26-35%.

Quote:

Perhaps you don't feel this way, but when it comes to safety I go by the "worst case scenario". Even 26% is much too high of a chance to risk it. But it can be up to 35%, then that's what I'm going with. Definitely not worth the risk either way, though.
Crazydiamond,
I don't think it matters how you or I "feel" about it. It is not accurate to quote 35% if the statistic is 26-35%, any more than it would be accurate for me to quote the same stat at 26%.


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## Ersbett (Apr 7, 2007)

Oh, I'm so jumping in this thread again.
Of course, I have done a mistake by getting my DD in the front with me, but hey, it's not wierd from where I am from(I'm one of those Europeans!) you will see kinds buckled in the front seat with their seat belts on, nothing weird about it and oh I forgot to say that I just use the car about 20% of the time, becuase I enjoy walking and oh, I almost never drive by myself so DD1 will be in the back seat, so stuff like that almost never happen.

Oh and I have a question, about the airbag things and they are reccomended for people weighting from 16lbs on, I weight 97 lbs so, an airbag deploying can kill me.
I have a '07 car, and we don't use the airbags, I don't know how they work, I just know it has airbags.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't know where people are getting that Europeans walk everywhere...Euros who live in the cities walk, just as people who live in Manhattan walk. However, plenty of people live out of the cities and do drive frequently. My dh's brother has a 45 minute car communte to work every day. His car is small, and doesn't pollute the way an SUV would, but he drives more than I do.

And have you ever been in Rome, say. Or Athens? The smog is as bad an anything you'd breathe in LA. Sadly. But all I am saying is that there are plenty of people (with kids and without kids) driving each day in Europe.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ersbett* 

Oh and I have a question, about the airbag things and they are reccomended for people weighting from 16lbs on, I weight 97 lbs so, an airbag deploying can kill me.
I have a '07 car, and we don't use the airbags, I don't know how they work, I just know it has airbags.


Please see post # 98 above and it may answer some of the airbag questions you have.

DC


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I don't know where people are getting that Europeans walk everywhere...Euros who live in the cities walk, just as people who live in Manhattan walk. However, plenty of people live out of the cities and do drive frequently. My dh's brother has a 45 minute car communte to work every day. His car is small, and doesn't pollute the way an SUV would, but he drives more than I do.

And have you ever been in Rome, say. Or Athens? The smog is as bad an anything you'd breathe in LA. Sadly. But all I am saying is that there are plenty of people (with kids and without kids) driving each day in Europe.

ITA. Even in Euro cities, people drive. When I worked in London, I was amazed at the number of people driving in to work (even with the GBP8 congestion charge to drive through the city every day!). My friend was an au pair in Amsterdam and she drove the kids to/from school every day even though they could have ridden a bike or taken the bus/tram. I have friends in the UK that live in the country and they are always complaining that they *have* to drive everywhere. Some people have no choice but to drive. They may make decisions that may mean they drive more or they drive less but it is kind of rude to judge them as you are not living in their shoes. IRRESPECTIVE of whether "they should walk instead", WHILE IN A CAR it is irrefutable that children are safest rear-facing in a 5-pt harness in the backseat.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Yeah so Americans drive too much, but that seems like a different issue. Statistically speaking it might effect the deaths of chilren in traffic accidents here vs. there, but that would only make it seem like the carseats aren't making a difference, and they are.
Obviously it only takes one time.


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
It is truly a ridiculous point to say that "I am so much more safety conscious than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats and only put my child in rear facing blah blah blah" when Europeans are in far greater numbers using the safer and healthier alternative of just walking from A to B.


I can see that you think I have a self-righteous attitude, and it is clear that it is bugging you.

ALL I am saying is that:

1. "*it is safer to be restrained than to be unrestrained*. It is safer to rear-face than to FF, and it is safer to use a harness than to use a booster seat."

2. "I would not take even a 1 millionth of a percent chance of such a thing happening to my babies *if it could be prevented by restraining them properly*."

I NEVER said walking wasn't safer _if practiced as a community_. In a community where _drivers aren't as accustomed to pedestrians_ though, it might not be safer. I don't know.


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
I NEVER said walking wasn't safer _if practiced as a community_. In a community where _drivers aren't as accustomed to pedestrians_ though, it might not be safer. I don't know.

That's certainly true around here... I fear for my life daily on my walk to work







Drivers just don't watch for pedestrians - even when I'm in a crosswalk :-/


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I don't know where people are getting that Europeans walk everywhere...Euros who live in the cities walk, just as people who live in Manhattan walk. However, plenty of people live out of the cities and do drive frequently. My dh's brother has a 45 minute car communte to work every day. His car is small, and doesn't pollute the way an SUV would, but he drives more than I do.

And have you ever been in Rome, say. Or Athens? The smog is as bad an anything you'd breathe in LA. Sadly. But all I am saying is that there are plenty of people (with kids and without kids) driving each day in Europe.

This is absolutely true. Europeans drive lots, too.** Which makes me wonder how it is that fewer children are killed or injured in Europe given that apparently we are not as safety conscious with car seats. Or are car seats, especially for older children, more a marketing ploy of manufacturers who make a lot of money selling them? Hmmmm.

**Although in the city of Rome, for example, it is pretty unrealistic to drive in the centre, unless you are on a Vespa.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
This is absolutely true. Europeans drive lots, too.** Which makes me wonder how it is that fewer children are killed or injured in Europe given that apparently we are not as safety conscious with car seats. Or are car seats, especially for older children, more a marketing ploy of manufacturers who make a lot of money selling them? Hmmmm.

**Although in the city of Rome, for example, it is pretty unrealistic to drive in the centre, unless you are on a Vespa.

A guess is that European cars and carseats have more safety features than their American counterparts. So in Europe, most of the deaths or injuries occur when children are not restrained at all. Whereas in the US, with our infererior seats, the injuries and deaths are a mix of unrestrained and restrained children.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Are fewer children in Europe killed in traffic accidents relative to the population?

Are there really a lot of deaths due to subpar seats? I know I always read about seats not installed properly.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Those European countries have lower birth rates, so less children in the population than in the US. That's at least part of why fewer kids die in car accidents there, there are fewer kids.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

You can look at current stats and see carseats/boosters are making a difference in the US as far as injuries/deaths to children. The latest stat I saw said car crashes was the #1 killer of kids 3 and up. It used to be 1 and up so I definitely think parents are getting the message, especially about extended rfing!

How often are children in cars in Europe? I know in Japan, everyone walked to school etc, whereas here, parents drive them mostly w/ some bussing. The stats could be skewed b/c there isn't a 'need' to have children in the car, as opposed to here where my kids are in the car anywhere from 2-6x a day. Of course they're at a higher risk than a child who only uses the car a few times a week.

Quote:

Seems it would keep them in the seat better? My son's straps can easily fall off his shoulders without the clip.
In Europe, the straps are slightly closer together I believe. If the straps on his seat are as tight as they should be, this shouldn't normally be a problem. I'm not saying toss your chest clip, I was just explaining it's not what keeps a child in the carseat (as many people think), so it's not really an intricate part of the seat IMO.

Quote:

I have a q do US car seat laws apply to citizens abroad?
US carseat laws only apply to those in the US, even if you're just visiting. Physics laws, however, apply to everyone.

Quote:

Hate to hijack, but while I have the attention of some brainy carseat techs, can I ask why it's safer to tether my marathon rf? The local tech here just used a pool noodle (for a very slight angle to give my oddler a tad more room) and said it's just as safe. ?? I got links from the carseat board, but they didn't actually answer that. Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?

And someone mentioned airbags. Why are they unsafe for kids if they protect adults? (not that mine ride in front, but just wondering.)
First, I would ditch the noodle. An older child doesn't need to be as reclined and that's part of the tether's job is to help recline the seat to the right angle. Like was mentioned, the tether reduces the amount of time the child is feeling the impact of the crash. In an untethered seat, the child has to go forward w/ the seat and then back towards the rear and then finally come to a stopping point. In a tethered seat, the child goes forward and then stops so is feeling a lot less impact of the crash. YOu can look in your manual (page 22 I think it is) to show anyone who wants to know about rfing tethering.

Airbags deploy at about 200mph. They are made to help reduce injury to a person who is safely strapped in their seatbelt and who has fully formed bones, so 15 and up approx. IMO weight has nothing to do w/ it, but age and overall size. You do need to be at least 10" away from where the airbag deploys though for any size. Airbags are not meant to keep people from being ejected, that's what seatbelts are for, they are just meant to add extra protection, not to be used instead of a seatbelt. The airbag can cause serious damage in a child who is 1) rfing and 2) who is not big enough to properly use a seatbelt w/out a booster. My kids ride ffing in DH's truck in the front in a harnessed seat w/ the seat all the way back and I'm fine w/ that.

Quote:

I have the Cosco (I think) carseat that was on sale at Walmart a few months ago. To get it at the correct levelness I use the tether, and tether to a metal piece below the passenger front seat. Safe? It moves less than if I roll up towels to put under it.
NOT safe, Coscos are NOT made to tether rfing.

Quote:

Should I turn off the airbag when I'm pg? I did toward the end of my pregnancy last time even though I got up around 200 lbs.
If you are closer than 10" to the dashboard, turn it off. if not, it's safer w/ it on.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
How often are children in cars in Europe? I know in Japan, everyone walked to school etc, whereas here, parents drive them mostly w/ some bussing. The stats could be skewed b/c there isn't a 'need' to have children in the car, as opposed to here where my kids are in the car anywhere from 2-6x a day. Of course they're at a higher risk than a child who only uses the car a few times a week.

To give you an idea, we live in Rome, Italy and my daughter is in a car approximately twice to 4 times _a week_. Two times on Saturday and two times on Sunday, maximum. No car on weekdays.

It is not that the statistics are "skewed", as you say. I think that the study itself acknowledges the fact that the stats result in part from America being such a car culture, which is, in itself, a problem. I think that it is incredible, for example, that there is no efficient, high speed train between LA and San Francisco. And that people in the States go for walks in shopping malls







:







:







.


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## erika978 (Feb 25, 2007)

I am a European - from Ireland. And we have VERY strict carseat laws. Unfortunately we have a high rate of road accidents and fatalities so there has been a huge push towards car safety. All children have to be restrained in some form until they have reached a certain height (escapes me now as I only have a baby). They aren't allowed in the front seat until they are at least 12 or 13. And you can have no more than 3 people in the back seat. You will receive penalty points (which can lead to having your license suspended) if you don't comply with this.

There is NEVER any excuse to not strap your child in. And there is NEVER an excuse not to use a seatbelt. Any unrestrained person in the car, be it child or adult, as well as possibly being catapulted through the front window, is also a deadly flying object in the car who can cause serious damage to restrained passengers.

Not to mention, unrestrained children can be far more distracting and thus more likely to cause accidents (as all it takes is your attention to be diverted for a second for an accident to happen).

In our car (and myself and DD only drive in it a few times a week), everyone is in carseats or has seatbelts on, or the car isn't started. No ifs, or buts. If DD cries, we wait until we find a safe place to pull over and then I jump in the back seat with her. At 8 months, she realises that she won't be coming out of the carseat until the car stops and is a little angel in it (wasn't always so as a newborn).


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I do think it depends where you live though. When I lived in an urban area I walked everywhere with my son in the carrier or stroller. He was almost never in the car. I still live in the city but it's all residential and (sadly) there is less to walk to. It's true the transit situation is terrible, but it is also more spread out. We don't all go for walks in malls.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
And that people in the States go for walks in shopping malls







:







:







.

Nice judgement there.... yeah, really accepting of others lives.

People walk in malls because the climate is controlled, the way is paved with no worry about snow or ice, it is well lit and there is security. Not all people walk in malls. I'm still appalled that people in Rome think it is ok to take babie from the car seat and hold them in the front in heavy traffic.

Both judgement, sure. One based on a lifestyle.... one based on protecting and safeguarding children.


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this thread, and ways to keep my kids safe in addition to RF and harnessing (thanks cmlp!). For one thing, I sometimes speed. Not a lot, but say, 5 miles over the limit. Every mile counts in a crash though, so I am making an effort to stick to the limit now.

About the walking thing though, I've been thinking about that and I really don't see how it is possible to walk much around here. I live in a sprawling suburban area. Using the now infamous Target to Costco example, I went again the other day and not only are there no sidewalks connecting the two stores, there aren't even any crosswalks.

Even the grocery store across the street from my house has no sidewalks. The sidewalk literally ends once you approach the busy intersection leading into the shopping center. There is a stoplight there, with one lane of traffic going in and two coming out. It could be very dangerous on foot, as opposed to being protected in a car in a low-speed crash.

You'd think I could at least walk to the grocery store in my own neighborhood in America.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

It's hard, you have to pick where you live carefully, but it's not like it's that easy. Where I live the walkable areas are either really busy urban areas or really, _really_ expensive.

Anyway I'm responding cuz I thought about the infamous Target/Costco thing today while going to the lovely Target and Costco. I think I've driven from one to the other too. I know I walked it once with the little guy in a sling when I wasn't picking up much. But really, walking across a giant, bumpy, busy parking lot with two kids and a cart full of stuff was a little iffy. It's really frustrating, actually. Sometimes I wish I could go into city planning, become dictator, and just raze it all.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

So, what about leaving the kids at home?
My friend's almost four year old is rear facing and complains everytime he has to get in the car. His legs really do look pretzeled back there. Anyway, it seems extreme to me.
I get that that is the safest way for him to ride, and that someone will say it is worth it if it saves his life but he is still at risk in the car.
Wouldn't it be safer to leave him at home?
I am just trying to get the people who say I would never put my child at that kind of risk even if it was a million to one, do you try to plan you life in way that will put your child in a car as little as possible? Riding in the safest carseat does not guarantee prevention of deadly injury.
I liked the comment about slowing down your speed because I think that is so important and is something all of us can do to keep our children and other children safer. Also if everyone would hang up their phones while driving.


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## Helen_A (Mar 22, 2004)

Hmmm phones and driving....

Well, in most european states it is illegal to use your phone and drive. You can use handsfree (must be voice activated or controlls on the steering though) but if you are on that and in an accident you are still likely to be prosecuted for lack of care and attention because your phone was in use.

WRT driving simply everywhere because it has been made difficult/impossible not to...... errk! Makes me realise quite why the USA generates so much CO2 compared to most other places!


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Yeah, much of the US is not well designed for walking. Some of that is deliberate. There was a deliberate effort to use huge amounts of taxpayer dollars to build the extensive highway network. The idea was that the politicians' friends would make a nice living on selling cars, car parts, gasoline, etc. The natural consequence of having that highway network is that people open shops far from residential areas.


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
So, what about leaving the kids at home?

Also if everyone would hang up their phones while driving.

Yes, I should definitely hang up the phone while driving.

As far as leaving my kids at home, I don't really have anyone to leave them with. Babysitters are expensive around here, and I'm not sure how I'd find one. Each neighborhood kind of hogs their own sitters and my neighborhood doesn't have any teenagers. We haven't lived here long enough to really get to know anyone with teenage kids that we would trust. Dh and I rarely go out, and when we do, we call my mom or dad, who are each an hour away. So we really have to plan in advance to leave the kids at home.

And my little one drinks very little from a cup and is still nursing so leaving her at home is tough. In fact, on some forums around here many people seem to feel that leaving a nursling at home should be avoided if possible, especially a really little one. So you kinda can't win if you have to go somewhere, can you?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't see what's wrong or extreme with 4yos rear-facing, providing the child isn't screaming about it. In the latter case it's certainly worth weighing the advantages/disadvantages. But my child is barely 21 months and his legs are quite bent. He is happy and comfy. I don't think legs dangling is supposed to be comfy either.

And I certainly don't aim to drive as much as possible. I wouldn't buy a house in some cheaper subdivisions b/c I didnt' want to drive all day every day. And sometimes I do even think about leaving them at home for some trips on the highway for that reason, but I"m not going to get paranoid about it. But I think safe carseats and minimizing driving are on the same page. I don't see rearfacing or restraining as paranoid at all. It's just safe. And when I do drive, I want him to be safer. He will probably be turned around soon, as he is 30 lbs, but I'm not looking forward to it.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I have a part time job I go to where my kids are able to come w/ me, that's awesome IMO. We leave after dh leaves (he puts in 50+ hrs normally a week), come home during the day and often go back to work before he gets home. There are no grocery stores to walk to. Plus, I enjoy spending time w/ my dh as we shop etc. It's another way for us to feel we both share in our household. Even if we left them w/ MIL, we'd still have to drive to her house. I guess I figure if I have to drive, I'll at least make them as safe as possible.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't leave DD at home because I like having her with me, feel she spends enough time in day care to very carefully select the times I do leave her. She is also a nursing baby and any pumped milk goes to day care. To leave her for an evening, I have to start stockpiling an ounce at a time about 2 weeks before. That's not really an option.

DH and I like to go together, so leaving him home or me home is also not an option.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?


This is one reason why we nixed the subaru - I wanted an adult to be able to ride in the front seat in front of a rearfacing car seat. It is a tight squeeze for sure. Can you put the car seat in the middle seat? That's what I've done the couple times we've ridden in my MIL's subaru.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 

I still do not see the difference between leaving a baby to soothe himself to sleep, with you standing beside the bed saying "there there, mama's here" a la "Ferber" and you sitting beside a newborn baby who is crying in her carseat, telling her "there there, we will be home soon". Both are a form of leaving a baby to cry, the only difference being that the latter is necessary for safety reasons.


DO you give your child candy or soda if he cries to have them? Do you let him watch TV if he cries and insists that he must? No of course not because those things are bad for kids and as a responsible parent you are making decisions every day to protect your kids.

Not letting your child CIO to sleep is vastly different from trying to make sure your baby never ever cries. Babies cry - that is a fact of life. The statistics for driving in the states are actually pretty scary so when people say they would rather have a baby who cries occasionally in a car seat then a dead baby they are being very logical. The risk for a deadly crash is shockingly high.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crayolaab* 
No, but it's certainly fair to say "I am safer IN THE CAR than those Europeans because I am strict about car seats".

Comparing being in a carseat in a car to walking is comparing apples to oranges. It is simply not a valid comparison.

Sorry but I have lots of family living all over Europe and there are plenty of places in Europe where people drive all the time. If you chose a region that was the same size as the US you would have lots of areas where people depended on their cars a lot just like there are regions in the US where people depend on their cars and there are regions where people walk.

The whole "Europeans walk more so it's okay to take their kids out of car seats" is a totally illogical argument as well as a huge generalization.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
Those European countries have lower birth rates, so less children in the population than in the US. That's at least part of why fewer kids die in car accidents there, there are fewer kids.


Plus if you look at the link that was posted with fatalities per 100,000 in population the US is roughly in the middle of the pack. There were several countries with higher fatalities per 100,000.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
To give you an idea, we live in Rome, Italy and my daughter is in a car approximately twice to 4 times _a week_. Two times on Saturday and two times on Sunday, maximum. No car on weekdays.


Once again my point about different regions of both Europe and the US. I live in MA and my daughter is in the car less then your daughter.

Not trying to one up you, just pointing out that it _really_ depends what area you live in be it the US or EU!


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

I have watched this thread progress and I wanted to add. I live in the southern U.S. and believe me some people could give a flip about using a carseat. I have seen infants on laps, childern in carseats with the seat belt across them, broken carseats, I hve seen kids sitting on carseats and not even strapped in..and my favorite Booster seats for childern under the age of one.

I have seen these things because I look for it. One of my friends call me a carseat Nazi, but I dont' care. I am hoping someday I become certified for carseat inspection.

It doesn't matter where you live, what part of the world, some poeple don't take safety as seriously as others, even when it comes to their own childern. Infact, I have heard comments about not using a carseat because its just another way for corprate America to make money, blah blah. WHile I don't like our industrial complex any more than the next person, child restraints are amoung the few things we actually need. Welll we wouldn't if the automobile industry would really try to design GOOD intergrated Child restraints.

O BTW, my DS has never ridden anywhere but his carseat. ITs jsut plane irresponsible to allow out child out of a carseat. My son can kick and scream all he wants but in the car his safety comes well before his emotions. Plus I can always pull over if its that pressing.


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## mamus (Nov 30, 2006)

I started reading this in the hope that it might contain some useful information that would help me to understand the UK's new laws on baby and child car seats and booster seats, because like most people I know, I am having trouble there! What I do know is that they're pretty comprehensive and strict, which is fine by me. Cars are very dangerous things even when handled well- and even if a baby is a passenger of the Best Driver Ever!, they're still at risk from all the other drivers on the road.

I don't drive, and I hope I never will. My husband got his driving license last year, aged 30. My baby (11 months) goes in the car once a week on average, if we do one big grocery shop. The rest of the time, I walk and carry him, or walk and use his pushchair. We don't live in a city or even a big town, there is little public transport and certain things are made harder by my not driving, but I much prefer it this way. I hate cars. We use them far, far too much. They certainly make a lot of people I know much lazier, they make the streets much more dangerous, and they're doing a lot to destroy the environment.

Funnily enough, when we have been in the car and unable to stop and our son cries, my husband, who is Polish, always tells me to "just pick him up!" and never understands why I refuse point blank. We've had some real fights about it on occasion.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
Also, with the marathon rf, the front passenger seat feels like it's sooo far forward in our subaru, it almost feels unsafe to ride there (and uncomfy). Are all those safe, rf'ing marathons out there doing this, or does our subaru stink for another reason?

Quote:

This is one reason why we nixed the subaru - I wanted an adult to be able to ride in the front seat in front of a rearfacing car seat. It is a tight squeeze for sure. Can you put the car seat in the middle seat? That's what I've done the couple times we've ridden in my MIL's subaru.
Yesterday 10:46 PM
LolaK
Can I ask what kind of car you drive?


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

we have an allroad. pricier then the subaru that we looked at but not by _that_ much and since my husband cannot fit in the front passenger seat of the subaru with our rf carseat behind him the subaru became a non-option. kind of sad since the subarus are so reliable but I have never had any trouble with my car and it's 100% perfect in the snow which is what we needed in a car.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
Those European countries have lower birth rates, so less children in the population than in the US. That's at least part of why fewer kids die in car accidents there, there are fewer kids.

Quote:

Plus if you look at the link that was posted with fatalities per 100,000 in population the US is roughly in the middle of the pack. There were several countries with higher fatalities per 100,000.
I was specifically talking about Italy because it was mentioned that children there often ride in laps or unbuckled.
The lower birthrate does not account for the whole difference or even close.
What agument I guess I keep coming back to is how far you are willing to go?
People say they will not take ever a million in one chance but you are still putting your child at risk putting them in a car.
People are appalled that not everyone is using a britex, it only cost pennies a day in the long run, right? Well guess what some people really can't afford a $300. carseat. Some people also cannot nix a certain model of car because they can't fit the rear facing britex behind the passenger seat.
If you want to post statistics about car safety I think that is great. It is the judgement that seems to be coming with it that is bothering me.


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cutekid* 
WHile I don't like our industrial complex any more than the next person, child restraints are amoung the few things we actually need. Welll we wouldn't if the automobile industry would really try to design GOOD intergrated Child restraints.

No integrated child restraint will fit every child, and if the vehicle ever was in an accident said restraint would be completely useless and dangerous afterwards. Integrated child safety seats are not practical.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intorainbowz* 
.....

Another point making her taking the baby from the car seat very dangerous. If the car you were in had front airbags, if the airbag were to deploy, it would have killed the baby. The type of accident likely to happen in traffic (slow speed rear or frontal collision) has a high likelihood of deploying the air bags.

I would pitch an ever living fit if someone removed their baby from the car seat in my car. In fact I would not allow it. DD is properly restrained every time we drive, as you never can tell when you will need the car seat until it is too late.


I totally agree. My niece, who will soon be 18, was nearly killed because her babysitter thought it would be nice to take a drive with her sister and her sister's baby, but not strap my then-11-mo-old niece in. They were less than half a mile from home and got hit head-on in an intersection. Niece's head hit the dashboard of the VW Beetle and she was severely injured as a result. She "died" 3 times before being brought back. She suffered brain damage, which resulted in her having the mentality of an 8 yr old, but the hormones of an 18 yr old (what fun!). She is limited physically. She will never be able to drive, hold much of a job, and she will never be able to experience life as she would have if she had not been injured. She will always need supervision.

She was robbed of what her life could have been, simply because a selfish and lazy person decided that my niece's life and well-being were not worth the time to buckle her in properly.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
Well guess what some people really can't afford a $300. carseat. Some people also cannot nix a certain model of car because they can't fit the rear facing britex behind the passenger seat.
If you want to post statistics about car safety I think that is great. It is the judgement that seems to be coming with it that is bothering me.


Well you can get a $40 cosco that rearfaces to 35 pounds and there are plenty of cars to choose from in this country that are actually far less expensive then a subaru and will fit a rear facing britax.

The judgement in this thread is directed at people who are driving in the car with an unrestrained child - NOT people who buy a car seat that isn't a britax or drive different models of cars. COME ON, it's plain rude to mix up the facts and accuse us all of being so obnoxious that we think everyone who cannot afford a britax is a bad mom.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Any Europeans out there know whether the Iseos SafeSide carseat for toddlers rearfaces? I don't think it can.

Anyway, DD is about 33 pounds now so not sure worth changing carseats for that at this point.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
I totally agree. My niece, who will soon be 18, was nearly killed because her babysitter thought it would be nice to take a drive with her sister and her sister's baby, but not strap my then-11-mo-old niece in. They were less than half a mile from home and got hit head-on in an intersection. Niece's head hit the dashboard of the VW Beetle and she was severely injured as a result. She "died" 3 times before being brought back. She suffered brain damage, which resulted in her having the mentality of an 8 yr old, but the hormones of an 18 yr old (what fun!). She is limited physically. She will never be able to drive, hold much of a job, and she will never be able to experience life as she would have if she had not been injured. She will always need supervision.

She was robbed of what her life could have been, simply because a selfish and lazy person decided that my niece's life and well-being were not worth the time to buckle her in properly.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

do you try to plan you life in way that will put your child in a car as little as possible?
YES. I have no car.


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