# Confrontation with another mom at open gym.



## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

I had a confrontation with another mom the other day. It was over parenting and not pretty. I am still sort of shell shocked.

Long story so bear with me: We were at a local homeschool open gym that we go to every Friday. I have three children. My oldest is a boy, age 7.5 years. He has a little trouble in social situations but has made drastic improvements. But he still has trouble just asking to join in and play.

When we arrived at the gym he ran in to play. C is a boy we have seen quite a bit but do not know well. I don't really click with his mom but we are in a small co-op together. So C was playing with another boy with a ball. The ball fell and I guess DS picked it up and ran with it (obvious to me it was his way to initiate play). C was upset, chased DS and called him "Weirdo" over and over again. DS lost his temper and hit C over the head with the ball (one of those soft rubber baby balls, NOT a basketball). C then hit DS, DS hit him back.

I only happened to see DS hitting C the last time. I had him come over immediately and sit down, while I finished nursing the baby and getting DD off and running. The I went and talked to him, found out what happened and told him it was not alright to lose his temper and hit someone, even when they are calling him names. That instead of stealing the ball he should have asked if he could play and that they would have let him join him. I asked if he felt he should apologize. He refused saying C was just as responsible. I didn't push it, I just asked if he could play the rest of the time without any sort of confrontation like that. He said he could. So After he was calm, he went and played. Not problems.

The kids were all playing together, except C wasn't happy and wasn't playing with the group. He didn't want to play what the kids were playing and was also quite vocal about his dislike for DS at that point. I heard him saying he didn't want to play tag because DS was it and he didn't want DS to touch him. I get it, he was upset at DS. I don't blame him.

Anyway, about 20 minutes before the end of open gym C's mom just exploded. I mean seriously exploded into a full on temper tantrum. She started by yelling, "That is IT! I have had it!" and continued that the other children had been excluding her son and none of us were doing anything about it and didn't care.

We all jumped up and said we were sorry, we didn't see any exclusion that was going on. I called my son over (I was nursing the baby again) while two other moms went over to talk to their sons (the girls were off doing their own thing).

The kids, when questioned, said C was telling them to go away and leave him alone so they thought he didn't want to play with him.

The mom then singled me out and told me DS was a bully and I was raising him to be a bully and she didn't think I was much of a parent because I didn't leave with DS immediately when DS and C got into their little fight. She accused my son of hitting hers in the head with a basketball and that he had no empathy and showed no remorse. That I should have had DS apologize. I told her I thought she was being a bit harsh but that was about all I could seem to get out as she was yelling at me. (this is how I remember it, and it may or may not be super accurate but I am trying hard to not get it wrong).

She then screamed at C to come, that they were going, because they had better things to do.

BTW, she was saying all of this while my son was standing there.

Ugh.... I was pretty upset and shocked. I mean, I was shaking. The other moms were very cool, One was a good friend, the others I didn't know as well.

Anyway, I don't know if I handled it right. Her words have me wondering if I should go around forcing DS to aplogize now for ever social mishap he has. I used to do that and it was horrible and never seemed to do any good. I know he shouldn't have taken the ball. I know he shouldn't have lost his temper and hit the other boy with it. But this boy has also excluded DS with another boy, made DS cry, and I never said anything. I talked to DS but I never freaked out at the moms or the kids.

I am going to see her again. I know it. It is a small area and I see her talking on mailing lists with friends of mine from the area. There will be no escaping her.

BTW, this mom talks a lot about empathy, love, patience, etc. but I have seen her hit her child, yell at him, call him names and lose patience with him endlessly. She is certainly not the perfect mother (and I am not saying I am either!).


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Wow. That sounds really, really ugly. I am so sorry you and your son were exposed to that.







Why would anyone want to play with a child who behaved rudely (namecalling, making fun of other children, etc.)

I'm not big on forced apologies, although we do talk a good deal about peacemaking. I often ask my kids "How could you make peace with so-and-so?" Sometimes it's apologizing, sometimes it's offering them a toy or a turn, sometimes it's a handshake. But it doesn't sound like this kid would be open to overtures of that sort, so I don't blame you for wanting to protect your child from further interactions with him.

I feel really bad for you, because in a small community, you will probably have to deal with her again. Is there any way you can clear the air with her?

Again, I'm really sorry. That's the kind of sordid yucky thing I really try to shelter my kids from. Is your little guy doing OK?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

We do do the automatic (and quick-after-the-incident) apologies, but I see that as an individual family rule, not A General Rule. So no, I don't think you did anything wrong.

It was open gym. "Open" play [versus, say, a soccer team, or a graduate-student group project] in my book, at any age, means learning one's own preference and social awareness and practicing them. Which sometimes means learning that if you do X Y or Z, people won't play with you. I think it was wrongish of C's mom to suggest that parents interfere with that process. I mean yah, if someone bonks C, the parent of bonker should step in to inquire (as you did) and if kids are consistently teasing and C isn't able to handle it/learn (and it sounds like C was handling it his own way - it was his mom who blew up), then inquire. Other than that, let the kids learn lifelong people skills, heh?








I'd be shaken, too.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

wow, I am so sorry you went through that. in my opinion you handled that BEAUTIFULLY. If I had been there to see the whole thing I would have been taken notes. If C had been my son, I would have talked to him about moving on in play, or perhaps mediated with the 2 boys or something. You really did great, don't second guess yourself please we need more parents like you out there! and too bad for the adult having a temper tantrum, thats very sad. Anyway I DO NOT agree with forced automatic meaningless apologies. I can tell when someone doesn't mean it... You are doing awesome really!! dont let her to get to you!! I am really admiring your grace in handling her explosion as well as the way you handled the situation with your son.


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## Materfamilias (Feb 22, 2008)

YOU did great.








The other mom, not so much. Way to not set an example for your kid. Have a tantrum and stomp out.


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## Fujiko (Nov 11, 2006)

The children's behavior pales in comparison to how that mother acted.

I'm a big believer in teaching by example. She wasn't setting a very good example.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

As far as apologizing over an incident like that, yes, you can't force them, but I always intervene, as an adult, and ask the other child if they are ok, and that *I* am sorry that my child hurt them physically or hurt their feelings. I think that by modeling this to my kids, it will help them to learn more empathy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't do forced apologies, so that would be a big issue right from the start. I also think her behaviour was totally out of line. If another parent at an open meeting (we don't do open gym, but do have a regular meetup) has a problem with my children or my parenting and wants to discuss it, she or he is welcome to do so. She or he is _not_ welcome to berate me in front of everyone and treat me like a child. I don't go for that kind of treatment of _children_ (although I will admit to losing my temper and saying things to my kids that I later regretted, and more often than I like







) - I certainly don't think it's okay to treat other adults that way.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

While I don't agree with the way "C"s mom handled the incident, I can see why she might feel that way towards your son. After all, if someone hit my child over the head and didn't apologize, I'd be ticked. I certainly wouldn't yell, but I would calmly ask for an apology. Of course, if my child hit the child back, she (I have only girls) would be expected to apologize immediately. I understand the "no forced apologies" line of thinking, but honestly, I think an apology is the best way to acknowledge the inappropriate behavior and express that the incident should not have happened. I probably would have apologized to C's mother as well, to show her I was aware of my child's behavior that I was handling it-also to diffuse the situation.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

to you mama. That sucks.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Ugh. That's terrible.

Now, for me, I would have made your son apologize and if he didnt I would have left. BUT sheesh different strokes for different folks I don't think that it's fair of this lady to come and get all worked up especially when her son was calling names, and YOUR son's behavior was a REACTION to her child's action. Anyhow, you didn't do anything wrong. You addressed the situation, you didn't ignore it. It sounds to me like you are doing a great job.

As a side note I say above that I would have left but perhaps not if I was in the middle of breastfeeding one child and I had others playing! I had forgot about that part!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

nak

by the same token, why did c's mom not "force" him to apologize for calling your son a weirdo and excluding him from play? it seems she is applying double standards, and i don't think you did anything wrong!


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

I think you did great. We don't do forced apologies here either. You certainly handled the other mom with a lot more kindness than I would have.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I thinkt hat you handled it beautifully. It sounds like both boys were "in the wrong" but both also felt justified in their reactions. The only thing that I may have done differently when she started yelling (though I would probably have been as speechless as you were) would be to say, "I am willing to discuss this with you if you stop yelling." If the yelling stopped, then I would say "Yes, the boys had a confrontation that should have been handled differently by both of them. Perhaps all four of us could sit down so both boys can understand each other's actions and learn to work out their disagreements peacefully in the future." If the yelling did not stop, I would just walk away.

As for the future, I would just be civil to her, welcomeing to her son, and perhaps be more aware of the two boys' interactions and intervene as early as possible to offer constructive guidance before it escalates.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

I agree you handled it well. I do encourage my children to apologize in situations like that though. I want my dc to know that their behavior is wrong and they are keeping their side of the street clean. "C"'s name calling and hitting 1st was wrong but IMO my children's reaction to his behavior is what I can work on. In our house if they hit a sib for taking something they are to apologize and each is equally responsilbe. I know this can't be done in the real world but I can teach my dc to take the high road and sometimes that means eating hmble pie.

As for the mothers reaction. I would probably have said something along the lines of "why are you yelling at me?" this usually throws people off and makes them see how they are acting. In the future I would not avoid places/events because I know they will be there- I would go and be nornal. If another confrontation happened I'd say this sounds like something we should TALK about and not so it in front of the children.

I'm sorry. This sounds like a really hard situation.GL


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

that mom sounds kinda crazy. I don't force apologies either. The only thing I may have done differently is to apologize to C myself when your ds didn't. My almost 7yo has to cool off before he feels ready to say sorry (and then he gives a very heartfelt real apology which is sweet), so i ususally go over to the other child and say something like, "C, I'm sorry ds hit you, that wasn't ok. Are you alright?"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If you and your ds should have left due to the fight, so should she and her ds. If one could try again to make things work, so could the other. I love how people have discipline rules that only apply to other people's kids.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it sounds like the OP DID encourage an apology - she doesnt didnt force a meaningless begrudging one









mamazee I totally hear you on that one!


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Have you ever tried taking him over to the child he's had an altercation with and had the two children use words to tell each other what they see happened, how it made them feel and then how they'd like to resolve it? I know this works with 3/4 year olds, it sounds like it should work with seven year olds?

I don't force apologies either, but I do tell my child (and other children) that being sorry makes the other person feel better, and saying it is nice. I know a lot of people get hung up on the word.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I think in that situation, I would have apologized to the little boy myself, saying something like, "let's share and no more hitting, ok?" Then I would've gone to speak to the mom. Maybe just talking to the mom about what happened would help, so she knows you are actually paying attention and that you care, you know? I don't agree with forced apologies either, although I would tell my child I think they need to apologize, and I'd let them know that I was going to go talk to mom and child about it myself as well.


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## earthgirl (Feb 6, 2006)

Wow! What an awful experience. I don't have much to add, I don't think you did anything wrong. I don't believe in forcing apologies, so I certainly wouldn't feel bad about that. Clearly this other mom has got some issues and it sounds pretty sad all around. It stinks that you are inevitably going to see her again, but I probably wouldn't bring this episode up. I mean, this isn't a friendship that you're trying to save or anything like that so I'd just let it pass. I would be concerned that something like that might happen again though, but hopefully it won't.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm going to have to be a dissenter...

When I first read the OP I thought this was a toddler situation and I would have said something to the little boy and mom but not a huge deal. When I rescanned I noticed that your ds is 7.5 and at that age I would have been more concerned over this behavior and gone farther to rectify the situation. We definitely would have left if the two boys couldn't work it out.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think I would have gone over and talked to both boys together and helped mediate. I wouldn't have forced an apology. I think your son in particular would have benefited from this because he could have heard how upset the other child was, you could have pointed out to him "Look how upset C was when you took the ball. He didn't realize you were trying to start playing." You could have then helped C understand your son's interactions "It looks like my son was trying to start playing with you and the ball, and that's why he took it. That wasn't a very good strategy, was it? What do you think would work better?" "I also see that you both got really upset. What do you think you can do differently next time other than hitting?"

Some sort of peace DOES need to be made between the kids or there will be tension. And it helps if an adult models it.

By the same token, if I heard someone else's child calling mine weirdo, my momma bear would have been over talking to his mom ASAP. "you probably didn't hear that, but your son has been calling my son names. What can we do so the kids treat each other respectfully?"

FWIW, I think this mom was WAY WAY out of line. If she thinks her son is being excluded, storming around, yelling at other parents and creating a scene is NOT a way to get her son INCLUDED. Talking to the other parents and kids calmly is a much better way to do it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm not going to comment on the whole altercation but yes, IMO, you should have had him apologize. I seriously do not understand all the people on here who don't believe in making your child apologize when they do something wrong. It is called teaching your child, it is called guiding them to learn how to behave properly in the world. Yes, your son should have apologized. No, she wasn't right to freak out. But if it had been me there and your son did that and you didn't have him apologize to my son I would be thinking that you weren't that great a parent too.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:

When we arrived at the gym he ran in to play. C is a boy we have seen quite a bit but do not know well. I don't really click with his mom but we are in a small co-op together. So C was playing with another boy with a ball. The ball fell and I guess DS picked it up and ran with it (obvious to me it was his way to initiate play). C was upset, chased DS and called him "Weirdo" over and over again. DS lost his temper and hit C over the head with the ball (one of those soft rubber baby balls, NOT a basketball). C then hit DS, DS hit him back.
I'll preface by saying my son struggles similarly.

Your son interrupted the game of another two boys, and likely to the other boys it seemed that he was stealing the ball rather than trying to join in. Thus the enraged "weirdo" and chasing. Your son then escalated things by hitting the other boy; back and forth hitting ensued.

Here's some hard-earned advice, not meant as judgement, but just what I've learned and what's worked for us.

I know your ability to quickly respond was limited due to nursing at the time, but knowing that my son had trouble joining in play, I wouldn't nurse until my son settled in (if possible).

Assuming I was free to move, I would have gone over and gently separated them. I would have said clearly to my son "you may not use your body to hurt another person" (established rule, and stated this way addresses both of their behaviours). If the boys were clearly not going to be able to reconcile then, I would have had my child come to the side with me for a discussion about choices made, what he could have done differently, what the other kids probably thought he was trying to do (steal the ball rather than join play), and what he could do to make it right.

If the boys looked like they could play together, I would say to the other boy "it seems there was a misunderstanding. Billy grabbed the ball because he wanted to join you and it looked to you like he was stealing it. Is there a game the three of you can play together, without hitting and name calling? How about ______."

Later, DS and I would debrief about what happened. This is an area my son struggles with. I view my job as coach for him, and to support him in scenarios that are predictably challenging or vulnerable for him.

I have nothing to say about the other mom; I hope she was just having a particularly bad day. Though it seems she has a different perspective on the kids' interactions generally.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I'm not going to comment on the whole altercation but yes, IMO, you should have had him apologize. I seriously do not understand all the people on here who don't believe in making your child apologize when they do something wrong. It is called teaching your child, it is called guiding them to learn how to behave properly in the world. Yes, your son should have apologized. No, she wasn't right to freak out. But if it had been me there and your son did that and you didn't have him apologize to my son I would be thinking that you weren't that great a parent too.


I don't disagree with this. I think the "not forcing an apology" approach best happens in a larger context of encouraging reconciliation and being accountable for choices.

My son is 6.5. If he had hit the other boy 3 minutes after getting there, I would probably have left or, given the need/right of other sibs to stay, had him have a cool off period beside me while he brainstormed how to make it right (in our world, that means asking if the other person is ok and some version of apology, possibly up to reparations depending on what occured).


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I am another who thinks you handled it just fine. You talked with your DS, you didn't just let it go. Maybe she didn't realize that but she didn't need to assume you didn't do anything either.

When you see her again I would act as if nothing had happened. Just be the way you normally are around her. If you normally say "hello" to her at the co-op then say hello. You didn't do anything wrong. If she brings it up again and wants to calmly discuss the situation with you, fine, though I'd request the discussion take place privately, not in front of the other parents. She had no right (or reason) to yell at you and you were right to tell her she was being a bit harsh (understatement, but effective, I think). She seems a bit off--she essentially threw a tantrum in front of everyone at open gym.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

I probably would have explained to DS what the perception from the other boys perspective was about him taking the ball and had him apologize for that. I would NOT have made him apologize for hitting the other child with the ball, but we would have had a discussion about appropriate outlets of expression when someone upsets you. I don't think anyone deserves to be hit (except in self defense situations), but I also think name calling is equally as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, but at that age they sometimes forget, and imo at that point BOTH boys were not behaving appropriately. I think you reacted correctly when you saw him hit C the last time by pulling him out of play and discussing the situation with him. Clearly from her later outburst, C's mom was watching the entire exchange and presumably saw her child calling yours names and saw her child hit yours as well. As she did not have her child apologize either, then the situation was a wash so to speak, both kids "wrong", neither apologizing, playing field was level at that point. I understand that C was unhappy with your son, and he was probably justified in it, but his behaviour with the rest of the _group_ was pretty immature as well. From his mother's outburst it sounds like he may get that from her - it was completely inappropriate and uncalled for, and not a good model for the children present. Hopefully she was just having a really bad day or has some other stress going on that caused her to over react, and this will all blow over. (It's possible there was a recent or looming job loss, death or serious illness in the family, etc. We don't know the details of other people's lives, and while it doesn't excuse her behaviour, the "big" stress can cause more extreme reactions in people.)

It sounds like a real mess to be honest. Since you know you'll see them again, I'd really talk to my son and encourage him to apologize to C the next time he sees him for taking his ball. As for the mom, if she starts something again, I'd politely tell her that I would be happy to discuss this in a calm and rational manner but would not stand there to be screamed at. And then I would simply turn around and walk away from her. Good luck, it doesn't sound like fun.

K.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I think I would have gone over and talked to both boys together and helped mediate. I wouldn't have forced an apology. I think your son in particular would have benefited from this because he could have heard how upset the other child was, you could have pointed out to him "Look how upset C was when you took the ball. He didn't realize you were trying to start playing." You could have then helped C understand your son's interactions "It looks like my son was trying to start playing with you and the ball, and that's why he took it. That wasn't a very good strategy, was it? What do you think would work better?" "I also see that you both got really upset. What do you think you can do differently next time other than hitting?"

Some sort of peace DOES need to be made between the kids or there will be tension. And it helps if an adult models it.

By the same token, if I heard someone else's child calling mine weirdo, my momma bear would have been over talking to his mom ASAP. "you probably didn't hear that, but your son has been calling my son names. What can we do so the kids treat each other respectfully?"

FWIW, I think this mom was WAY WAY out of line. If she thinks her son is being excluded, storming around, yelling at other parents and creating a scene is NOT a way to get her son INCLUDED. Talking to the other parents and kids calmly is a much better way to do it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
I'll preface by saying my son struggles similarly.

Your son interrupted the game of another two boys, and likely to the other boys it seemed that he was stealing the ball rather than trying to join in. Thus the enraged "weirdo" and chasing. Your son then escalated things by hitting the other boy; back and forth hitting ensued.

Here's some hard-earned advice, not meant as judgement, but just what I've learned and what's worked for us.

I know your ability to quickly respond was limited due to nursing at the time, but knowing that my son had trouble joining in play, I wouldn't nurse until my son settled in (if possible).

Assuming I was free to move, I would have gone over and gently separated them. I would have said clearly to my son "you may not use your body to hurt another person" (established rule, and stated this way addresses both of their behaviours). If the boys were clearly not going to be able to reconcile then, I would have had my child come to the side with me for a discussion about choices made, what he could have done differently, what the other kids probably thought he was trying to do (steal the ball rather than join play), and what he could do to make it right.

If the boys looked like they could play together, I would say to the other boy "it seems there was a misunderstanding. Billy grabbed the ball because he wanted to join you and it looked to you like he was stealing it. Is there a game the three of you can play together, without hitting and name calling? How about ______."

Later, DS and I would debrief about what happened. This is an area my son struggles with. I view my job as coach for him, and to support him in scenarios that are predictably challenging or vulnerable for him.

I have nothing to say about the other mom; I hope she was just having a particularly bad day. Though it seems she has a different perspective on the kids' interactions generally.

Great ideas on how to handle this.

The other mom was wrong to have a full blown tantrum over it.

I do think that you probably need to be more available to guide your ds's social interactions since you know he has trouble.
Maybe roleplay more what your ds can do if someone calls him a name, hits or how he should ask to play would help too.
Since you are going to see them again I wonder if it would be best to be the bigger person and apologize to the other mom and try to make peace.

I don't tolerate hitting. Dd knows that. If my dd hit it would not matter if she was called a name first. She could either apologize/make things right or I would apologize and we would leave asap.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i think you did a pretty good job. as a general rule I would expect dc to apologize but in this instance probably not. it would have just esscelated the mess. it was ugly all around.

the only thing I would have done differently is gotten to mom or C as soon as I could and made sure evrything was ok and apologizing for not being able to jump in sooner.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Thank you for the advice! I do appreciate it.

While I do think her yelling and tantrum was WAY out of line, I should have been the better parent and had my son walk over with me to C to mediate. I could have apologized for him.

I do want to note that I did ask my son if he felt he could apologize. He felt he was not in the wrong. For him, taking the ball was in fun. The ball did fall and roll away, he didn't grab it from the kids. He really wasn't trying to be mean. But if I had cleared that up, then maybe we wouldn't have had this problem.

I struggle with resenting her for never doing this with her son the times he has excluded mine, but like a PP said, I should be the better person. When I was telling this story to a good friend of mine, she told me C and another boy physically stopped her children from playing on a playground and called them names and excluded them. They left with her kids in tears and C's mom never did a thing.

I will handle this better next time. I do not think I should have left with my son unless she left with hers. Now, if my son had walked up to her and punched him in the face without saying a word, then heck yes! We would have left.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
I do think that you probably need to be more available to guide your ds's social interactions since you know he has trouble.

I completely agree with this sentiment. We've had experiences a couple of times where other parents felt because their child struggled with some issue, that our children should compensate. I fully believe it's the parent's role to help her own children in these situations rather than rely on the other children to be understanding.

While your son may have improved, for him not to realize at 7 that grabbing a ball and running with it away from the other children who were playing is a problem suggests he really has a long way to go in terms of social interaction. I really think in that case you should be more involved with helping him navigate social situations - and even speaking for him when needed - until he's capable of doing it on his own.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Thank you for the advice! I do appreciate it.

While I do think her yelling and tantrum was WAY out of line, I should have been the better parent and had my son walk over with me to C to mediate. I could have apologized for him.

I do want to note that I did ask my son if he felt he could apologize. He felt he was not in the wrong. *For him, taking the ball was in fun*. The ball did fall and roll away, he didn't grab it from the kids. He really wasn't trying to be mean. But if I had cleared that up, then maybe we wouldn't have had this problem.

I struggle with resenting her for never doing this with her son the times he has excluded mine, but like a PP said, I should be the better person. When I was telling this story to a good friend of mine, she told me C and another boy physically stopped her children from playing on a playground and called them names and excluded them. They left with her kids in tears and C's mom never did a thing.

I will handle this better next time. *I do not think I should have left with my son unless she left with hers.* Now, if my son had walked up to her and punched him in the face without saying a word, then heck yes! We would have left.

A couple of thoughts.

There's a saying, 'it's not what you said but what the other person heard.' Your intention, their perception. When we're interacting with others, it's important to attend to this, IMO. Was it reasonable for the other boy to perceive that DS was stealing the ball? I think so. The learning opportunity for your son here was that there are better ways to join in play that are more likely to be received as friendly.

The second thought is that it's not about what they did or didn't do - you can't control them, but you can take responsibility for yourself. DS was a chronic hitter. I have repeated versions of "I know it hurt your feelings when he did ____. But it is not okay to hit. You can't control him, but you are responsible for your own choices" a zillion times. It's working, and there is now only one context in which I know he's going to struggle with self management.

Life _isn't_ fair, but we need to conduct ourselves as well as we can, rather than getting positional. If the standard we set for ourselves is the low one demonstrated by others, our lives will have more conflict rather than less. This other mom is clearly struggling with self control and guiding her son.

Incidents like these can be learning opportunties, and I try to derive as much from them as I can.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I'm not going to comment on the whole altercation but yes, IMO, you should have had him apologize. I seriously do not understand all the people on here who don't believe in making your child apologize when they do something wrong. It is called teaching your child, it is called guiding them to learn how to behave properly in the world. Yes, your son should have apologized. No, she wasn't right to freak out. But if it had been me there and your son did that and you didn't have him apologize to my son I would be thinking that you weren't that great a parent too.

I know we all have different reasons, but I'll share why we don't force apologies. First our children are still young enough (2 and 4) that we're working on teaching them to be true to themselves. That sometimes means we aren't sorry. While we do talk with our 4YO about not saying hurtful things even if they're true ("that dress is ugly" and that sort of thing), I don't believe it's necessary to teach that we should apologize when we're not sorry.

DH and I don't do that as adults. There have been times when people felt I should apologize to them, and I haven't. So I didn't apologize. It's tougher than always being the one to say "sorry," but I think overall it's better.

Now we do focus on peace-making with others or sharing that we are sorry when we are. We also talk about explaining when something's an accident and then seeing if the other person's okay.

The second reason - and I suspect a more common one - is that I see a large number of people who believe a simple apology suffices for anything they do. My MIL talks about this with children at school all the time. They have children who think they shouldn't get in trouble because they mumbled "sorry" to someone. In the OP's situation, what would an insincere apology do? Would that alone make the mom feel better? If it would, then you know the problem wasn't grievous. We've been at playgrounds where kids were literally running over other children, but yell "sorry" as they pass. Their parents shrug and say, "he said he's sorry." That, to me, is much worse than a child who decides that he isn't going to apologize.

That said, I don't think not wanting to make someone apologize means letting that person off the hook for the action. In the OP's case, I either would have left or made my child sit with me for 10 minutes or so. What he did was wrong. He shouldn't have taken the ball, and he shouldn't have hit (twice). He was the aggressor, and Mom should have addressed that. As a parent, I would assess the situation based on the other parent's reaction to her child. Was she dealing with the situation or shrugging it off? That's a bigger indicator of whether I'd bring it up to her than the apology.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

fwiw, he sat w/ me for 10 min.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I think the other mother seemed to have the problem. Perhpas she was just having a bad day.

I do "forced" apologies. I teach my children that their actions and behaviour is what they need to concern themselves with. If they were in the wrong, in any way, they owe the other person an apology, whether or not the other person apologizes back. I want them to be in control of their own actions, and learn to not react to a situation based on someone elses actions.

But that is just how I usually handle it. I think the worst of the problem you had was with the other mother. She really overreacted. And if her son was excluding himself, she should have been aware of it long before her explosion.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

I would stay away from her.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I'm not going to comment on the whole altercation but yes, IMO, you should have had him apologize. I seriously do not understand all the people on here who don't believe in making your child apologize when they do something wrong. It is called teaching your child, it is called guiding them to learn how to behave properly in the world. Yes, your son should have apologized. No, she wasn't right to freak out. But if it had been me there and your son did that and you didn't have him apologize to my son I would be thinking that you weren't that great a parent too.

I don't know about anyone else's motivations, but I don't force apologies and my reason is that I want my child to feel empathy and remorse, not grumpily parrot some unfelt phrase to wipe the slate clean.

I don't know what I will do if my child gets to seven and doesn't routinely apologise, but I know that the routine I follow with 3/4 year olds is what professionals recommend as a way to end up with a child who feels empathy and genuinely tries to make amends as opposed to teaching them to grunt "sorry" and all will be forgiven.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't force apologies because I don't believe in forcing children to lie.

I do encourage peacemaking. There are lots of ways to make peace beyond a formulaic "I'm sorry." (Especially if they aren't actually sorry, LOL!) More often than not, my kids actually _do_ end up saying "I'm sorry; please forgive me." And I am thrilled knowing it's coming from their hearts and not from me.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
I don't know about anyone else's motivations, but I don't force apologies and my reason is that I want my child to feel empathy and remorse, not grumpily parrot some unfelt phrase to wipe the slate clean.

I don't know what I will do if my child gets to seven and doesn't routinely apologise, but I know that the routine I follow with 3/4 year olds is what professionals recommend as a way to end up with a child who feels empathy and genuinely tries to make amends as opposed to teaching them to grunt "sorry" and all will be forgiven.

My children don't "grunt" sorry. Thanks. I have taught them from a very early age that they need to apologize when they have wronged someone. I don't just tell them to say sorry and then let them run away. We have a discussion every. single. time. We discuss why what they did hurt someone, how that person might be feeling and how we can make it better. If you wrong someone you should apologize. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I am happy to report that they aren't little ingrates "grunting" apologies at people as they run by, but caring children who, at 6 and 8 year old, know how to treat other people when you do something wrong.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Since it seems to be an informal poll, we don't do forced apologies either (most of the time.) When my children are forced to apologize, I emphasize that the other child really needs to hear an apology in order to feel better. It's very rare that they are forced.

I think, putting myself into the same situation, that a couple of things were going on that have nothing to do with you. The mother may have been having other stressors in her life that just exploded out at that moment. Also, she seems to think that her son can do no wrong. There's nothing you can do about that one. I've been guilty of being a little too biased towards my oldest son. I view him as sweet and sensitive and needing of my help and intervention a lot, but I've learned that it's not true and he's capable of being an instigator. I have a friend who sees her son that way and to me, there's nothing sweet or sensitive about that kid.









If you see her in the future, I'd just stay a little distant and pay close attention to make sure that she doesn't try to punish your son herself by being overly rough with him verbally or making snide comments. I wouldn't overdiscipline my son when she's around just to make her happy though. Like others have said, just be more available to help him navigate those social situations for awhile.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Since others have shared their reasons, I'll add mine. I don't do forced apologies for a few reasons:

1) I don't want my children thinking "I'm sorry" is a get out of jail free card.

2) I see no value in teaching them to lie. If they're not sorry, I don't feel that saying they are is "appropriate social interaction". It's a lie, plain and simple...and one they're using to duck the consequences of their actions.

3) The biggie, for me, is that I've been on the receiving end of multiple false apologies in my life (when bullies were caught in school, and from a couple of emotionally abusive people in my life). I knew they weren't real, and they made me feel _worse_ than the original crappy treatment did. I realize it gave the people forcing the apologies a warm fuzzy feeling to know they were doing the "right" thing, and teaching others to be good people, but I don't think they were doing that. I think they were teaching some really nasty people how to get out of trouble easily.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I also have my own reasons why I dont do forced apologies. I remember about 3-5 years ago, my SIL called me and starting ripping my a new one saying how pissed she was at this message I left for her. Then she proceeded to call me a "freak" and then brought up stuff I have done in the past as if to use it as a weapon. I cut it short really fast, said she had no right to talk to me that way and when she felt like talking like a calm person she could call me back. She did then call me back that afternoon and said she misunderstood my message and she was really sorry for her behavior (never mentioned the name calling, just calling and yelling at me) and I said fine. I was pretty silent. So she said- well are you not sorry too? And I replied sorry for what? She said well I always teach my kids to say they are sorry too. I said- what am I sorry for you calling me and ripping me a new one? No I am not sorry nor will I offer up a phony one either. I left it at that and she tried to change the subject and act like everything was fab. So she asked if I wanted to go to lunch the next day etc and I said, I am not available and I had to go.

She has had similar incidents with others like this- her daughter decided to hit my aunt for no reason other than to melt down because the kid was tired. SIL made her dd say she was sorry and it was a phony one and then she waited for my aunt to say something. Then said- are you going to say sorry and my aunt said- what for getting hit by your kid? No I am not.

This is the reason I will not make my kids say that unless they really do mean they are sorry. But after talking back and fourth, my kids would be sorry for hitting someone else. I would also remind them, if they were hit or had their feelings hurt, they would want someone to say sorry to them.

Moving on to the C family. Mrs C may have the same issues with her son having trouble mixing in, but its not as noticable who knows. Or she may have something else going on in her head and this was just the icing on the cake that day. We all have had days like this.

But I have a strong feeling you are not the first person she has lashed out at and wont be the last. I would not be surprised if the others gave each other knowing glances and were not surprised.

She should feel lucky I was not present because I would have had her mouth closed within minutes even though she was yelling at you. Being a people person, I have had my share of dealing w the playground bully, crazy coworker, bullying customer who is angry, quick tempered mother or parent and even evil teens and a few nicu nurses. I would have done it quickly and smoothly and this person would not know how I shut her up so fast. I handled this woman last summer or her evil twin who lives in my neighborhood. She had been lashing out at people for months or years and when she picked me one day, she got it good. I let her know that she may not speak to me or anyone in my family that way and if she did it again, there would be hell to pay. I also added I was done defending her actions and behaviors to others and she should really rethink this tactic no matter what the situation was because it was very unbecoming to her and it really solved nothing. She ended up giving me a very sincere apology but could not look me in the eye for months. And since others witnessed it, I had people telling me for weeks how glad they were someone told her off. I stretched it about defending her since I agreed she has no right to do that, but I would say to the victim, maybe she had a bad day blah blah blah until it was twice too many. But at least she knew others talked about her behavior. She hasnt lashed out for a while.

So hopefully, someone has said something to this Mrs C and if you see her again, I would let her know that you were concerned about her son and your son but until she can conduct herself in an adult way, you have nothing to say to her and you are going to continue to go to the coop.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Just out of curiosity (and maybe this should be it's own thread)-- if you do forced apologies, do you do forced forgiveness as well? Like, if someone says they're sorry, does your kid have to say "I forgive you?"


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

DD is almost 4. I can't force her to do anything! I wish! However, if she hits someone, I expect her to apologize for hitting. If she didn't apologize for hitting, I would apologize to the other child, for DD's hitting, and then take her home at that point.

In the OP's situation, I wouldn't expect her child to take all the blame, or apologize for taking the ball. But apologize for hitting, because hitting is never o kay. And ideally, since it sounds like they were bonking each other, the other kid should apologize too.

Anyway, it's kind of splitting hairs though--the OP interceded, calmed the situation down, dealt with it--I don't think the OP has anything to feel bad about in the situation. An apology is a nice thing, but it's not like the OP let her kid run amok without handling the situation. Hang in there, OP!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Since others have shared their reasons, I'll add mine. I don't do forced apologies for a few reasons:

1) I don't want my children thinking "I'm sorry" is a get out of jail free card.

2) I see no value in teaching them to lie. If they're not sorry, I don't feel that saying they are is "appropriate social interaction". It's a lie, plain and simple...and one they're using to duck the consequences of their actions.

3) The biggie, for me, is that I've been on the receiving end of multiple false apologies in my life (when bullies were caught in school, and from a couple of emotionally abusive people in my life). I knew they weren't real, and they made me feel _worse_ than the original crappy treatment did. I realize it gave the people forcing the apologies a warm fuzzy feeling to know they were doing the "right" thing, and teaching others to be good people, but I don't think they were doing that. I think they were teaching some really nasty people how to get out of trouble easily.

ITA!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Just out of curiosity (and maybe this should be it's own thread)-- if you do forced apologies, do you do forced forgiveness as well? Like, if someone says they're sorry, does your kid have to say "I forgive you?"

excellent point!


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
My children don't "grunt" sorry. Thanks. I have taught them from a very early age that they need to apologize when they have wronged someone. I don't just tell them to say sorry and then let them run away. We have a discussion every. single. time. We discuss why what they did hurt someone, how that person might be feeling and how we can make it better. If you wrong someone you should apologize. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I am happy to report that they aren't little ingrates "grunting" apologies at people as they run by, but caring children who, at 6 and 8 year old, know how to treat other people when you do something wrong.

But what meaning is there to a word with no feeling behind it?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Heavenly-

those who don't do forced apologies DO teach that you should reconcile (And that ONE of the ways to do that is saying sorry) We do teach how that person might feel and how we can make it better. we do discuss why the other person was hurt.

WE just don't have the "say sorry or else" approach. we encourage it, but iultimately its the child's responsability to apologize if they think it is in order.

And I DO NOT agree with apologizing when you don't think you did anything wrong. And I understand "its not what you said its what the other person heard"... yes - thats the problem, the way the other person heard it... but WHOSE problem is that?

Example: I argue with my mom. My mom says my sister will need therapy because we argued in front of her (she's 13) and I say if that is so she probably already needed therapy. MY mom says "are you trying to say she is cutting herself?!" I say VERY CLEARLY : NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT. SHE NEVER SAID THAT TO ME AND I AM IN NO WAY SAYING THAT TO YOU. After I leave, my mom calls her friend and says "(my name) says that (sisters name) is cutting herself" (my sister told me, and since I kno my mom very well, I know its true because I've seen her do this exact thing 1,000 times at least before)

So - should *I* apologize because my mom heard my sister is cutting herself when I said she probably already does need therapy? I spent a good deal of my life being forced to apologize because of what my mom or someone else "heard". I lived a good part of my life walking on eggshells desperately searing for the right words to use so they could not be manipulated to make me feel like a bad guy. I will not do that to my children. My children know their intentions. God knows their intentions. They are responsible to themselves to do the right thing. They are not responsible to apologize to someone who HEARS something different then what they are ACTUALLY saying. We cannot be accountable for what OTHERS hear, we are accountable for what WE say. Of course, we should be considerate and try to say things in a kind way - there are times when apologizing for misunderstandings are in order - but there is never a time to feel manipulated into apologizing when your heart was in the right place.

As for the situation, sure the child should have apologized for his part. And I think we can teach our children that we can do the right thing (apologize) even if the other person doesn't. Because we arent responsible for the other person doing the right thing. We shouldn't let other people's shortcomings (not apologizing even though they were wrong "first") become our own shortcomings.

This is something we teach children - forcing them does not TRULY teach this. giving an ultimatum to apologize will NOT teach this. Giving the understanding and motivation to apologize is what will teach this.

I really don't like when people make their kids apologize to my kids when they don't mean it. and my kids don't like it either. and it causes a LOT of tension between friends when this happens


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

she's gaslighting you.
http://www.enotalone.com/article/16906.html

(hugs)

Unfortunately, there is NOTHING you can say to her, and engaging the conversation any further is only going to make YOU feel bad even though you aren't doing anything wrong.

If you feel you must reply keep it short and sweet and avoid sounding defensive. And as tempting as it would be (for me) to be passively aggressive right back, you need to avoid that as well.

"Thank you for taking the time to email me. I feel confident between the two of us we can help the boys resolve any similar problems with eachother in the future. Have a nice day!"


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

It seems to me that age 7 1/2 your kids should be able to work out playground issues (so and so took my ball, so and so called me a weirdo) by themselves with assistance only from parents. I think you stepped in just enough, given the setting. There are a wide range of parenting responses that I would consider appropriate in this situation, from breaking up the fight and having the boys apologize to each other immediately, to having them take a break, to leaving. I think that judgment call should be left to the mother, by making him take a break you were not being permissive.

Honestly, if some one were to write me an email like that, I would not respond, at all, especially over email. If I said anything it would be a reply "Take me off of your email list."


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Just out of curiosity (and maybe this should be it's own thread)-- if you do forced apologies, do you do forced forgiveness as well? Like, if someone says they're sorry, does your kid have to say "I forgive you?"

This is an excellent question.

First, I want to say that our "forced" apology is NOT a lie. My children are taught to "apologize" not just say "I am sorry", and they can wait until they are ready, however they can not continue until they do.

For example, when "Tank" hit his brother today. I sent him to his room to think about it. I would not allow him to continue playing with them until he had apologized. He sat in his room for about five minutes and then asked if he could come out now. I asked him if he were ready to apologize, and he said yes. So he went and found "Energizer" and said, "Energizer, I'm sorry for hitting you." "Energizer replied with an, 'I forgive you'" and then they continued with their playing. "Tank" is 4 years old.

He has been taught that he must apologize (not with a generic "I'm sorry" but with a true apology that includes his offense). This reminds him what he did wrong as well the need to "fix it". The apology does not give him a get out of jail free card either. There are consequences to all actions. Sometimes the apology is all that is required but most of the time, an apology is only the first step, then there is restitution or some other appropriate consequence to make the offended party "whole" (or as "whole" as can be made under the circumstances).

I have taught them the need to forgive, as well. I do not "force" forgiveness, however, I live it in front of them, and let them know how important it is. So, they almost always offer an "I forgive you" when they are apologized to.

I can tell when they really apologize. And if it is not sincere they are welcome to set themselves apart until they are ready.

Anyways, I find it important for them to learn how to apologize willingly and quickly. This is a taught response, IME. And if taught early in life it tends to come our easier and more genuine.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
I can tell when they really apologize. And if it is not sincere they are welcome to set themselves apart until they are ready.

What if they're not sorry? What if setting themselves apart doesn't make them feel sorry? Do they have to just lie until it sounds sincere or what do they do?

Quote:

Anyways, I find it important for them to learn how to apologize willingly and quickly. This is a taught response, IME. And if taught early in life it tends to come our easier and more genuine.
Interesting. IME, those who apologize most easily are often (maybe even usually) the ones who mean it the least.

I've seen several people in this thread talk about how they tell their children that they should apologize to make the other person feel better. How do you know what the other person feels? How do you know it makes them feel better?

I've had many apologies in my life. Most of them were irrelevant - no real offense, no issue (eg. "I'm sorry" when bumping into someone in line). That kind of apology is often sincere, imo. The people who don't care about being rude won't even offer one. There really isn't an issue of having hurt someone, though - just an inconvenience thing...it's more of an "I'm not trying to be rude" thing than an "I know I hurt you and I feel bad" thing.

Other than those, the vast majority of apologies I've had fall into "making the other person feel good". People who treated me like crap, but knew that if they just apologized, everything would be okay. Whatever. I'm sure their parents and teachers thought they were teaching them to be good people, considerate people, etc. etc. They weren't learning that. They were learning that the appropriate follow-up to being snotty to people is "I'm sorry" and then you're off the hook. None of those apologies ever made me feel better.

And...then there were the guys from high school who apologized at our 10 year reunion. That's probably the only time in my life that "I'm sorry" actually meant anything. That was almost 13 years ago, and it still gives me a warm feeling when I think of it. They thought long and hard about the way they'd treated me, realized it was appalling and felt bad...and they wanted me to know that.


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## ainh (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm going to jump on the apology aspect of this thread...maybe it should be a new thread?

My 2.5 year old has taken to doing something "wrong" and then shouting this annoying "Saw-Ree!!". It's like when a child intentionally drops/throws/does something and then says "oops". It drives me nuts.

Our preschool is a fan of 'doing something' to show you're sorry rather than just saying sorry (since kids don't fully get empathy at this particular age). Singing the kid a song. Restoring what they destroyed. Kissing/hugging the wronged party, if appropriate and desired. Etcetera. I can't always make my boy say "I'm sorry", but he'll often say "I won't do that to you again" (though he invariably does, of course). I actually like that better in a way. At least it's another option for something to say and it can actually carry more meaning

As for the OP. I would just kill this lady with kindness. I like the sample response that someone else posted. Short and sweet interactions are probably your best bet for the two of you. You'll be around her in the future and don't want to burn bridges. Yet you probably don't want to get into much of a dialouge with her either, you know? Try to say things that you can genuinely mean if possible. And try to give her the benefit of the doubt too...not to say 'she's right and you're wrong'....more like 'you're both doing what feels right for yourself'.


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## suziek (Jun 4, 2004)

I haven't read more than the first page of posts but I thought I'd add my thoughts and come back later to read the rest.

In the best of circumstances, if my son hit another person I wouldn't demand an immediate apology be issued, and I wouldn't publicly reprimand but I would bring him near me so he could sit beside me until he was calm and in a good frame of mind to consider his actions. Then I'd ask him to talk to the other boy and try to, as we put it, "start over". Usually that means an apology and a request for forgiveness, but it might mean a hand shake or a simple, "hey, let's start over".

I would be injured over the other mother's actions and her obnoxious, terrible example. But I would try to tell myself the issue is my own child's behavior, since that is what I can influence. And since you don't think his actions are that out of line--and I don't necessarily, either. I mean to say I guess hitting another child is out of line but normal enough and part of what happens when kids get together and very much a dealable, and teachable, situation--you simple need to take whatever action is needed to help your child deal better in this kind of situation.

I just read about the e-mail. Ouch! She sounds pretty conniving and mean-spirited. I'd consider her toxic and avoid!


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.

wow what a mess! I would email her back maybe she should call you and not send emails. I would talk to the coop organizer and complain about her abuse.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I guess part of this is our definition of "apologize". You see, apologize is not just a word, but is actually to offer an apology or excuse for some fault, insult, failure, or injury. So, I teach my children to apologize with the idea of either offering a "reason" or "excuse" along with a sincere request for forgiveness.

So, it may come across soemthing like, "Energizer, I am sorry for hitting you. I was angry because you took my toy, but I should not have hit you."

It is not really about making the offended person "feel better" because, quite frankly it is not likely to do that. It is about what is right. And THEN, once the apology has been made, it is up to the offender to attempt to make it up to them, although sometimes it is not that easy. That is where the consequenses come in. (And I do not "force" apologies for things that are not clearly their fault.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What if they're not sorry? What if setting themselves apart doesn't make them feel sorry? Do they have to just lie until it sounds sincere or what do they do?

If they are not truly sorry, they will not HAVE to apologize, but they will have still have to make it up to the offended person. And it is not easy to do when you are holding a grudge. Then, the consequenses can be more and/or longer than if there had been a true apology.

We really try and make the "punishment fit the crime". So, while we will offer them a chance to "fix it" themselves, if it is not an adequate attempt or a true apology, I will "top it off" with an additional consequence.

This is just how I teach my children and live my life. It works for us and my children have learned to be very polite and kind to people, offering appropriate apologies when needed. But it may not work for everyone.









But, I guess I have gotten quite far off OT. I guess this is really a topic more suited to a new thread.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.











I don't think there's any way to reason with her. I would not respond.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Just out of curiosity (and maybe this should be it's own thread)-- if you do forced apologies, do you do forced forgiveness as well? Like, if someone says they're sorry, does your kid have to say "I forgive you?"

I don't like the term "forced" apologies, as if I am standing there with a fun to their heads. I prefer "encouraged." And no, they do not have to say they forgive someone but if someone apologizes they should say, "Thank you for apologizing."


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
And I DO NOT agree with apologizing when you don't think you did anything wrong. And I understand "its not what you said its what the other person heard"... yes - thats the problem, the way the other person heard it... but WHOSE problem is that?


That situation totally sucks. That's emotionally manipulative and dishonest, for someone to have a pattern of deliberately and self-servingly twisting another's words.

But where you don't know that to be the pattern, ie in general discourse with others/acquaintances, I think it's demonstrating social skill to try and fit our actions/words to how we can predict others will perceive us. In the OP's example, the lesson for her son is how to (and not to) join social play.

As for requiring apologies, the apology is not exclusively about how the other person feels as much as it's about navigating social relationships and having standards of behaviour for ourselves. When my son has hit another child, he knows that he should not have struck the other child and needs to mend fences as a matter of principle (this is at six, not younger ages).


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

OP, I'm glad you came back and hopefully haven't felt attacked.









I like the term gaslighting. This other mom seems very troubled. I like Super Glue Mommy's line in response:

Quote:

"Thank you for taking the time to email me. I feel confident between the two of us we can help the boys resolve any similar problems with eachother in the future. Have a nice day!"


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.

I would love to tell you to igore this unbalanced individual, but honestly I don't think she's going to let you do that. Based on her behaviour at the gym and her "helpful" follow-up it sounds like she's stewing over the entire thing and trying to set herself up to look better in any future confrontations. If you reply to her and let her know you're on to her, then she can play the martyr to the rest of the group - _I was wrong for my outburst and I apologized even though her son has so many issues. I even offered to help her out because obviously she has her hands full and needs assistance with her son and just LOOK how mean she was back to me!_ If you do nothing then she can tell people that you were _so rude she never even responded when I was trying to be nice! No wonder her son has issues if that's the way she acts!_ Unfortunately from the original incident and the followup e-mail she sent, it doesn't sound like this is over and it also sounds like having approval is important to her. I would probably send her a short reply something like this:

I appreciate your apology. We are aware of any issues our son may have and while I appreciate your concern, they are being dealt with successfully. Perception differences aside, I'm confident in the future our children are of an age where they can learn to co-exist peacefully and work out any further issues.

With that you've just acknowledged her apology and tacitly accepted it, rebuffed her insults about your family in a polite but "butt out" kind of way, and pointed out that both children have work to do when it comes to social interactions without accusing her child directly of any wrong behaviour - all the while telling her that she needs to step back. It also closes the issue and does not leave it open for further discussion. I wouldn't reply to anything beyond this, and though it sounds paranoid and childish, do not delete her e-mail(s). You may need those in the future if she gets too difficult. I hate games like this. Good luck!

K.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.

Dear C's Mom,
Thank you for your message.
I accept your apology.
I'm sorry the boys had trouble getting along. Ds was wrong to hit when your son called him a name. I have spoken to him about it and we are talking about better ways to handle situations that might crop up in future.

Sincerely,
Savoury


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I don't like the term "forced" apologies, as if I am standing there with a fun to their heads. I prefer "encouraged." And no, they do not have to say they forgive someone but if someone apologizes they should say, "Thank you for apologizing."

well, we encourage apologies as well, just not in a "or else" kind of way. there is no bottom line of apologize or xyz (such as us leaving) because I dont see HOW a child could not feel manipulated into apologizing at that point. its either going to be a power struggle (they feel SO strongly that an apology is not in order that they end up being punished for staying true to themselves) OR it's not a big deal (they give a sincere-_sounding_ apology because they really want to stay and play) I learned VERY early what a sincere apology SOUNDED like - didnt mean my empty apologies were sincere, just convincing to my mother (satisfied here, didnt satisfy the other child, though I did later in life learn how to TRULY make amends)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
I guess part of this is our definition of "apologize". You see, apologize is not just a word, but is actually to offer an apology or excuse for some fault, insult, failure, or injury. So, I teach my children to apologize with the idea of either offering a "reason" or "excuse" along with a sincere request for forgiveness.

So, it may come across soemthing like, *"Energizer, I am sorry for hitting you. I was angry because you took my toy, but I should not have hit you."* - this, this is the kind of apology we try to teach as well









*It is not really about making the offended person "feel better" because, quite frankly it is not likely to do that. It is about what is right.* And THEN, once the apology has been made, it is up to the offender to attempt to make it up to them, although sometimes it is not that easy. That is where the consequenses come in. (And I do not "force" apologies for things that are not clearly their fault.)
I agree - it's about what is right. as I said before, they should apologize for what they did, and in the end it shouldnt matter what the other person did or whether or not the other person apologized its about being accountable to themselves for themselves.

If they are not truly sorry, they will not HAVE to apologize, but they will have still have to make it up to the offended person. And it is not easy to do when you are holding a grudge. Then, the consequenses can be more and/or longer than if there had been a true apology.:
you lost me... this is where we differ for sure. sounds very manipulative to me, I thought my moms approach was confusing this would have made me ill as a child (i was always very sensitive - IDK if you read the highly sensitive child or not, but this approach would honestly have made me physically ill from confusion)

We really try and make the "punishment fit the crime". So, while we will offer them a chance to "fix it" themselves, if it is not an adequate attempt or a true apology, I will "top it off" with an additional consequence.
aha, again where we differ. we don't use punishment. this sounds so much like my mother. perhaps my mothers approach worked for some children but I will say for ME it really set me back. of course you know your children better then anyone else, so my mother's inability to pick up on her ineffectiveness with me is separate from your interactions with your children and irrelevant, just sharing my experience for the sake of the OP

This is just how I teach my children and live my life. It works for us and my children have learned to be very polite and kind to people, offering appropriate apologies when needed. But it may not work for everyone.









But, I guess I have gotten quite far off OT. I guess this is really a topic more suited to a new thread.

(i replied within this quote in underline because im lazy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
This is an excellent question.

First, I want to say that our "forced" apology is NOT a lie. My children are taught to "apologize" not just say "I am sorry", and they can wait until they are ready, however they can not continue until they do.

if I were your child, you would totally think I was giving a sincere apology and I would be SO full of it it would be coming out of my ears and making a pile on the floor next to me.

For example, when "Tank" hit his brother today. I sent him to his room to think about it. I would not allow him to continue playing with them until he had apologized. He sat in his room for about five minutes and then asked if he could come out now. I asked him if he were ready to apologize, and he said yes. So he went and found "Energizer" and said, "Energizer, I'm sorry for hitting you." "Energizer replied with an, 'I forgive you'" and then they continued with their playing. "Tank" is 4 years old.

I would sit there long enough that you had thought I had thought about. i would be sitting there thinking about how I can say a sincere SOUNDING apology (that sounded sincere to you) and I would be counting in my head trying to figure out how many minutes has passed so that it would sound sincere. Usually before doing this I would stare at the popcorn ceilings and see if I saw patterns or pictures, once bored I would probably count to 2 or 3 minutes, the come out and give my fake apology that you would fall for.

He has been taught that he must apologize (not with a generic "I'm sorry" but with a true apology that includes his offense). This reminds him what he did wrong as well the need to "fix it". The apology does not give him a get out of jail free card either. There are consequences to all actions. Sometimes the apology is all that is required but most of the time, an apology is only the first step, then there is restitution or some other appropriate consequence to make the offended party "whole" (or as "whole" as can be made under the circumstances).
a sincere apology AND a consequence. The only thing (as a child) I am sorry about at this point is getting in trouble. I probably feel even LESS true remorse towards this person. If I hurt them it was because *I* was hurting. I had an unmet need. and now im being punished for it. I am feelings resent towards my mother and the other person at this point. Have you read connection parenting? I highly recommend it. Of course you may have really resilient children not sensitive like I was, but again for the sake of the OP I am sharing how this approach "worked" for me (ie - didnt work but made my mom feel like it was working)

I have taught them the need to forgive, as well. I do not "force" forgiveness, however, I live it in front of them, and let them know how important it is. So, they almost always offer an "I forgive you" when they are apologized to.

I can tell when they really apologize. And if it is not sincere they are welcome to set themselves apart until they are ready.
Yeah my thought so too. sometimes my apologies didnt sound sincere, and I had to try a couple times to muster up the convincing sincere sounding apology that was just as fake as the first one. It's not like children hurt others for NO reason, so I really agree with Storm Bride on this one. If a child hits another child, you will rarely get a TRUE sincere apology without connection before correction, as until the unmet need is addressed that is what the child is focused on and they are feeling justified in their actions.

Anyways, I find it important for them to learn how to apologize willingly and quickly. This is a taught response, IME. And if taught early in life it tends to come our easier and more genuine. I agree restitution is important to learn. I think anything taught early in life comes easier. The approach you are talking about is what delayed me in learning this genuinely. My children have learned the true meaning of apologies and sympathy. I know there apologies are genuine because they are not required. First we connect before correcting. Then we explain why one should apologizes, how one can apologize, the importance of it, etc - I find that when I have truely fixed the problem at its source (met the unmet need through connection) that my children will apologize, because they are good by nature, no need for coercion, they want restitution.

more underline lol


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
That situation totally sucks. That's emotionally manipulative and dishonest, for someone to have a pattern of deliberately and self-servingly twisting another's words.

But where you don't know that to be the pattern, ie in general discourse with others/acquaintances, I think it's demonstrating social skill to try and fit our actions/words to how we can predict others will perceive us. *In the OP's example, the lesson for her son is how to (and not to) join social play.*

*As for requiring apologies, the apology is not exclusively about how the other person feels as much as it's about navigating social relationships and having standards of behaviour for ourselves.* When my son has hit another child, he knows that he should not have struck the other child and needs to mend fences as a matter of principle (this is at six, not younger ages).

I agree with all the bolded. It can definitely be used as a learning opportunity to teach her son about how to/how not to join social play. this would be beneficial to everyone. My son is the kind who needs help with this because of his social delays. Which kind of reminds me a of a cute story, my friend took my son to school today and was going over the rules with him that I go over with him. A 3rd grader overheard and said "excuse me, but (my sons name) is a very good boy! everyone in my class loves him" this 3rd grader was scolding my friend hahahaha

I TOTALLY agree with what an apology means. This is what we teach our children and why we don't force apologies or manipulate our children into apologizing.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
Dear C's Mom,
Thank you for your message.
I accept your apology.
I'm sorry the boys had trouble getting along. Ds was wrong to hit when your son called him a name. I have spoken to him about it and we are talking about better ways to handle situations that might crop up in future.

Sincerely,
Savoury

I like this one...it points out the role that her son had in this issue. It sounds like this woman really is messed up. She's insecure and is bullying. She doesn't see her son through accurate lenses at all. Short and sweet and avoid her like the plague in the future.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
OP, I'm glad you came back and hopefully haven't felt attacked.









Nope! Haven't felt attacked. Got the big girl panties on and everything







I have learned a lot and will certainly handle something like this better in the future.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Or instead of saying you accept her apology, say "thanks for taking the time to email me." like another poster mentioned. Don't mention that your son has any issues. You may feel that he has issues, but don't acknowledge that to anyone who would use that against him.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
Dear C's Mom,
Thank you for your message.
I accept your apology.
I'm sorry the boys had trouble getting along. Ds was wrong to hit when your son called him a name. I have spoken to him about it and we are talking about better ways to handle situations that might crop up in future.

Sincerely,
Savoury

Well, I haven't had the chance to tell her her son called mine a name. She was too busy yelling at me for me to tell her.

As for other issues, my husband and I had a huge talk with our son tonight about the situation so we could understand everything that went on. I now have a clearer idea of his thoughts and actions and what he did right and wrong. We also agreed her owed C an apology and next time he see's him he will give it. Which I thought was a step in the right direction.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
This is just how I teach my children and live my life. It works for us and my children have learned to be very polite and kind to people, offering appropriate apologies when needed. But it may not work for everyone.









Fair enough. It probably should be a new thread, but this topic is one that really bugs me. Requiring apologies seems to "work" for many people, but I don't know what "work" means in this context. Honestly, it seems to mean that social conventions have been fulfilled, and that's never been one my main goals, in either my life or my parenting.

In any case, most children I've known (both as a child myself and as a parent) willingly apologize at the drop of a hat, and mean nothing by it, so I don't really pay much attention to it, anymore. I can assume that most MDC moms handle it differently, simply because there's a different underlying philosophy pervading this community...but "I'm sorry" is meaningless noise to me, and apologies that are required are also meaningless noise to me. "I'm sorry" from a child's mouth is just one more litmus test that people tend to apply to each other's parenting, and those get old...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fair enough. It probably should be a new thread, but this topic is one that really bugs me. Requiring apologies seems to "work" for many people, but I don't know what "work" means in this context. Honestly, it seems to mean that social conventions have been fulfilled, and that's never been one my main goals, in either my life or my parenting.

In any case, most children I've known (both as a child myself and as a parent) willingly apologize at the drop of a hat, and mean nothing by it, so I don't really pay much attention to it, anymore. I can assume that most MDC moms handle it differently, simply because there's a different underlying philosophy pervading this community...but "I'm sorry" is meaningless noise to me, and apologies that are required are also meaningless noise to me. "*I'm sorry" from a child's mouth is just one more litmus test that people tend to apply to each other's parenting, and those get old...*

I think some people get more out of their children apologize then their children get out of it. This was the case for my mom. Her goal was for her kids to make her look good. My goal is for my children to show the good inside them on their own for the own benefit, not for mine. love you insight on this whole thing. I think its hard for some people to understand this the way you and I do. Do you think you are a sensitive person, and thats why you are able to pick up on the subtleties? That is the case for me. I think most sensitive people would understand why forcing or manipulate apologies are not really sincere even if they seem that way outwardly, but I can understand how many people who are not sensitive can't understand or "miss the mark" in understanding this.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Or instead of saying you accept her apology, say "thanks for taking the time to email me." like another poster mentioned. Don't mention that your son has any issues. You may feel that he has issues, *but don't acknowledge that to anyone who would use that against him*.

Oh, this! That's really important. We've certainly experienced pathologizing of our son - where something goes on, and he wears the bulk of the "blame" because he has "issues." Sometimes kids behave like turkeys because they're young and learning, not because of any 'issues' they may have.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I really do not think your son should have apologized. Plus, she really needed to get a handle on her spoiled child's behavior. Plus, the homeschool community is not big. Her child is young. It will not take long for her to run out of friends and homeschool things to go to.

I would have emailed her back and told her what I really thought.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I may disagree with how you handled it but this mom is taking things WAY to seriously. They're kids, jeez. Move on.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today. And I have no clue what to think. Just when I was feeling peace, I get this horrible stressed-out feeling. She accuses my son of some awful behavior, but in this backhanded nice way, and then she goes on to say she has seen him act like this time and time again. Like that is all he does. She barely knows me. And I have seen her child act out. Time and time again. Isn't that what kids do sometimes? Shoot, as my husband says, even adults act out... as she did.

She apologized for her outburst, explains some reasoning behind it (she was picked on, her child is sensitive), says I obviously have my hands full with three kids and can't handle them all (but in a nice way, so I guess that should make me feel better about it). She also blames my son for everything that happened there, even going on to say when he was playing tag he had "a malicious look in his eye when he did it, like he knew full well what he was doing", and tagged C. DS has no recollection of tagging C, at all.

The kicker is that she says it is obvious we do not give DS enough attention at home which is why he is acting out.

Then she says she would love to help me, basically gain control of my kids.

While I appreciate her apology and I do know that I owe her one for DS hitting C, the rest of the email infuriates me.

That isn't an apology, and my only suggestion is that you be nicer than I'd be.


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

Wow, i can't believe she emailed you like that! Totally insane. I like this response.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
Dear C's Mom,
Thank you for your message.
I accept your apology.
I'm sorry the boys had trouble getting along. Ds was wrong to hit when your son called him a name. I have spoken to him about it and we are talking about better ways to handle situations that might crop up in future.

Sincerely,
Savoury


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't agree with forced apologies. But if your son wasn't going to show remorse for hitting I think you should have. Name calling is out of line, but so is taking someone's toy and not giving it to them and then hitting them with the toy. Hitting is something that should never happen unless you are being kidnapped.

If the boy didn't want to play he only had himself to blame, but you mention that you see this lady in more than one setting and it may be that she sees your son acting like this in more than one setting and has had enough of it. Even parents who hit don't like seeing kids bully their children in a group setting week after week. If that is the case than you might want to consider doing something else with your son like leaving immediately if he starts taking things and hitting.

If you go over and intervene immediately when he takes something and tell him he needs to ask to join in the game then that may be more powerful to you than it was for you to allow him to continue to join in the games in inappropriate ways. You can see that he wants to join in, but to the other children and some of the parents his joining in looks like stealing equipment for himself, egging other kids on, and hitting them. If you can stop this and redirect him to an appropriate way to join in right at first it may not get to the point where he lashes out physically.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Or instead of saying you accept her apology, say "thanks for taking the time to email me." like another poster mentioned. Don't mention that your son has any issues. You may feel that he has issues, but don't acknowledge that to anyone who would use that against him.


Good point. I also though wouldn't say anything about her son calling yours names, etc as that just opens the door for her to start another antagonistic encounter if she doesn't believe you/her son denies it/etc. If you feel it necessary you can mention that your son feels it would be appropriate to apologize to C the next time he sees him (I would only include this if you're sure he'll still feel that way and if you think your son's going up to C to do so would cause another outburst from her at the time). Basically accept her apology, apologize for your son (however you want to do that) and try to prevent further discussion with this individual. She really does seem pretty unbalanced!

K.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Just out of curiosity (and maybe this should be it's own thread)-- if you do forced apologies, do you do forced forgiveness as well? Like, if someone says they're sorry, does your kid have to say "I forgive you?"

great question! I've never even thought of that.

I don't do forced apologies, never have, but my children are quite remorseful and able to apologise spontaniously with genuine feeling when they feel sorry and it all came about without any forcing ever. I've taught them how to apologise without ever forcing them to.

I've just developed other ways to encourage them to express that they are sorry when they feel that way.

I love when I hear them playing and one gets hurt and even if it's an accident the other becomes caring, kind and apologetic for their part in whatever has happened. It's wonderful


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I think some people get more out of their children apologize then their children get out of it. This was the case for my mom. Her goal was for her kids to make her look good. My goal is for my children to show the good inside them on their own for the own benefit, not for mine. love you insight on this whole thing. I think its hard for some people to understand this the way you and I do. Do you think you are a sensitive person, and thats why you are able to pick up on the subtleties?

This is getting way OT, but very quickly...

I don't think I'm any more sensitive than average, in a general sense. I think I'm possibly more sensitive to this particular issue than a lot of people, simply from being the recipient of _so_ many insincere apologies. It became kind of a hot-button topic for me when I was still in school, and then years of completely meaningless "apologies" from my ex just aggravated my feelings about the subject.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
well, we encourage apologies as well, just not in a "or else" kind of way. there is no bottom line of apologize or xyz (such as us leaving) because I dont see HOW a child could not feel manipulated into apologizing at that point. its either going to be a power struggle (they feel SO strongly that an apology is not in order that they end up being punished for staying true to themselves) OR it's not a big deal (they give a sincere-_sounding_ apology because they really want to stay and play) I learned VERY early what a sincere apology SOUNDED like - didnt mean my empty apologies were sincere, just convincing to my mother (satisfied here, didnt satisfy the other child, though I did later in life learn how to TRULY make amends)

(i replied within this quote in underline because im lazy

more underline lol

Edited because it is so not worth it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I think some people get more out of their children apologize then their children get out of it. This was the case for my mom. Her goal was for her kids to make her look good. My goal is for my children to show the good inside them on their own for the own benefit, not for mine. love you insight on this whole thing. *I think its hard for some people to understand this the way you and I do.* Do you think you are a sensitive person, and thats why you are able to pick up on the subtleties? That is the case for me. *I think most sensitive people would understand why forcing or manipulate apologies are not really sincere even if they seem that way outwardly, but I can understand how many people who are not sensitive can't understand or "miss the mark" in understanding this*.

Edited because it is so not worth it.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
I really do not think your son should have apologized. Plus, she really needed to get a handle on her spoiled child's behavior. Plus, the homeschool community is not big. Her child is young. It will not take long for her to run out of friends and homeschool things to go to.

I would have emailed her back and told her what I really thought.

Okay I'm confused. It was the OP's son who stole the boy's ball and ran off with it and then hit the same boy over the head. How does he not owe the child he hit an apology? I also cannot see how you have decided that the other boy is spoiled - his reactions to the situation seem pretty normal to me. While her reaction may have been extreme I understand her mama bear instinct to protect her child. I can't see why people would shun her as a friend for trying to protect her child.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Okay I'm confused. It was the OP's son who stole the boy's ball and ran off with it and then hit the same boy over the head. How does he not owe the child he hit an apology? I also cannot see how you have decided that the other boy is spoiled - his reactions to the situation seem pretty normal to me. While her reaction may have been extreme I understand her mama bear instinct to protect her child. I can't see why people would shun her as a friend for trying to protect her child.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

the OP's son didnt "steal" the ball, it rolled away and he ran to get it in an attempt to initiate play. then the kids called him a name, and he hit, and the kid hit him back. so what we have is:

OPs child - poor initiating of play
C: name calling
OPs child: hitting
C: hitting

The OP sees what her son needs to work on and what part of this was his wrong. C's mama thinks her son did nothing wrong.

An ideal play out would be:
OP teaches her son how to initiate play, and shares with her son how it seemed to the other child that the toy had been stolen - teaching her child empathy. OP can also teach son that even if someone calls you a name that you can still be a kind person, and ways her son can do this without letting the other person pick on them (such as playing with another child instead)

C's mama could teach her son that name calling is not okay, and to have compassion towards those who needs are different then his own (such as the OP's child who is having a hard time learning to initiate play then some other children might) and also that it is not okay to hit and that next time a problem is escalating to ask an adult for help resolving the issue if they cannot resolve it calmly and gently on their own.

both parents could have worked together to mediate the problem.

OP could have apologized for her child.

Now, these thigns happen where we dont handle something the best way we could have at the time because it all happens so fast and its never happened before we have no previous experiences to draw from. So, the OP learned how she can handle it better in the future.

The only person in this who scenario who was completely out of line was the other mother, who was modeling aweful behavior by having an adult tantrum. Then she emails the OP a passive aggressive gaslighting manipulative email. No one is shunning her for protecting her child. The distaste is in her behavior after the incident, as well as the email that followed. And the best thing you can do with a toxic person like this is do your best not to engage them. Which is why I didn't recommend pointing out what her child did "wrong" because chances are that would only escalate this person - they would not be receptive, and her reply at that point would probably just upset the OP even more. It's futile. I recommend just thanking for the email, not giving her any leeway by telling her how you have "dealt" with it. Don't incriminate your son in any way. Don't point out anything about what her son did. I know its tempting, but it's best to keep it as a short sweet acknowledgment that gives no attention to the past and focuses on the confidence of a good future.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today.

I'd be sorely tempted to 'lose' that e-mail in my junk e-mail box, and then deal with it in person the next time we see them. It sounds like you've talked to your son, he's worked out that an apology is in order and he's willing to do that.

On the larger topic of apologies - in our family we talk about making amends, not just apologizing. Two reasons behind that: 1. Ds is not a verbal kid and he would sit for hours before offering a verbal apology. He cannot be coerced, forced, bribed, intimidated or anything else into SAYING something he doesn't want to say. 2. "Sorry" is too often flippantly tossed off and used like a "get out of jail free card". Child hits/name calls/bullies, child says "sorry" in a snotty tone, child acts like they've done the world a big favor and no more is required of them.

So, we focus on making amends. How can you help the other child feel better? (A hug, ice, a card, a letter, time.) A side benefit of this approach is that it works even if you don't feel like you've done anything wrong. You don't have to feel sorry to help someone else feel better. You simply have to acknowledge that another person is upset. That is a good life skill.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
the OP's son didnt "steal" the ball, it rolled away and he ran to get it in an attempt to initiate play.

The only person in this who scenario who was completely out of line was the other mother, who was modeling aweful behavior by having an adult tantrum.


Actually the OP said that the boy dropped the ball and that her son took the ball and ran away - nowhere was it mentionen in the OP that the ball was rolling away.

I believe that the OP's son was also completely out of line when he hit the other child. I understand that name calling is very cruel but at 7 years old he should understand that hitting is wrong.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree the hitting was out of line for both parties. I agree the name calling was out of line. yes, you are right, he dropped the ball, though as I said it was an issue of poor initiation of play. It sounds to me like the OP's 7 year old does understand he is wrong and is willing to apologize. I actually think it says a lot about her son that he is willing to apologize even though it is likely the other boy will not apologize for the name calling. Aparently the OP has taught him well, that we can do the right thing even when we feel others are wronging us.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Strange, when I originally read this thread, I got the impression we were talking about three or four year olds. I did not realize that we were talking about seven year olds. I think by seven they should have much more control over their behaviour. Although I do know they have their moments. I guess I was just equating this with my four year old that was hitting his brother at the moment I first read the thread.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

they sure do all have their moments. and some children just have different needs, its hard to say because a child is a certain age they should have mastered something. It's like those who can't believe a child is 6 and not potty trained, but don't take into the account the child is autistic. Or the child who is 10 and cant read, but dont take into account the child is dyslexic. They pass judgement on what a child *should* be able to do because of the year that child was born in. it's sad really. Some children should be able to do some things, but I can't focus on some children. I focus on teaching my children what they need to learn at that time. and I also teach them to understand when someone else hasn't learned somethign they already have, even if they are the same age or older. It's funny how with milestones and academics people can respect that children learn at different rates, but when it comes to social settings they feel that x age means something is wrong if they don't know x behavior. The issue should be if they don't know x behavior is wrong, teach them that its wrong, and teach them what is right. It shouldn't be that "oh, looks its your birthday, you should know better then to hit now" I can respect this in the same way I respect that when my son turns 1 that wont mean something magical happened and he should stop breastfeeding. Or say he is 3 and still breastfeeding, I wont think he should have stopped by now just because most 1 year olds are weaned.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I know what you mean. I try to remember that ages don't mean anything in an overall general way, although I have to admit that at first glance, I do tend to fall into the old "they should know that by this age" stuff.

I hate it when someone constantly asks a child, "Well? Do you feel any differently now?" on their birthday. Like they wake up in the morning and POOF! the are a different person.

I have the child that did not read until she was 8 so I know how it goes.

(Sorry if I made it seem like I was accusing based on age bashing or something like that. I was really just commenting on new information that I had not previously known.)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

No, reading your post it didnt really seem that way to be honest, I just thought it was a good opporunity to bring it up lol. And I too am guilty of the "they should know by now" at first thought, I think its just the "norm" to think that way, and so for me, that thinking is default and then after I stop a minute, slow down and actually think, I realize the reality of it. Perfect example is my brother versus my kids. At 18 months and 2 1/2 my kids were both cleaning up after themselves, garbage in garbage cans, and dishes in the sink. My brother does not do this at 9 - BUT you know what? maybe he did it at 2 and 3. The novelty can wear off. With things like hitting, my brother at age 9 doesn't hit other kids BUT he tortures the cat. Not in an intent to be violent kind of way, but makes it a "bed" in a drawer and closes it in the drawer. Then he says that the cat went in there on its own and shut itself in. he's an immature 9 though, and probably more like a 7 year old. and a lot of what he does he should "probably know better by now" but people focus too much on that. It doesn't matter if he *should* know better by now, parent can do "everything right" and their child may still lag developmentally whether in an educational way or in a social way. what we need to focus on is the fact that they DONT know and they NEED to learn and how can we most effectively teach this in a way that will stick with them in the long term. When doing this with my own children I feel its best that I make sure their heart is in the right place, because good habits are great and all, but the one thing stronger then good habits is good intentions. The habit of apologizing is not as strong as the desire to make ammends (in my opinion) which is why we focus on that instead of just the words. How quickly my children apologize is not an issue. There are times my daughter does things that are wrong to my son and she will see before I can even talk to her (by the way I am comforting my son) that she has hurt him, and she comes up and no she doesnt always say "im sorry" but she WILL make ammends (today for example my son dropped his bracelet. she took it and he was really upset and I was comforting him. when she realized he still wanted it and was hurting she gave him the bracelet back AND offered him her favorite baby doll to play with as an offering to make amends... I didn't teach her that, but I suppose I model this a great deal when I make ammends with my husband complete with a cup of coffee


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I think your "making amends" is about like I consider our "forced apology". I want my children to say the "right words", but more importantly is the actions that "fix" the problem or make the offended person as better as they can. So, perhpas we are not that different. (That is why I don't realy like calling it a "forced apology" because it is not JUST about words that "fix" it all. It is about the actions that go beyond the words.)

As for milestones, I have dealt with this issue a LOT with my own Mom. My brother started to read at four. Fine. That is great. But when my own daughter still had trouble reading at seven, she began accusing me of not educating my children, of them being stupid and ignorant, and of me being a failure as both a teacher and mother. I never could get her to understand that my daughter has a learning disorder that caused her to not be able to read easily. It has taken years and even now at 10 she still struggles with it. But we are working on it.

Sorry for the OT story. I guess it is still a sore spot with me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

im not sure how you handle apologies or amends, but for me when I say forced apology I am refering to the "apologize/make ammends or else"

We would use a time in and address the behavior including making ammends, but there would be no "stay here until you are ready to apologize" or "we are going home if you don't apologize" because *I* feel based on my own experience as a child that it only motivates the child to make ammends or apologize without sincerity. and some children are better at seeming sincere then others. if a child apologizes on their own, knowing in advance there is no punishment if they dont, then I can trust it was sincere. and if its not sincere I don't want them to do it.

In the case of the OP her child needed to step back and realize the role he played in all of this before he was ready to make amends. his intent was not malicious when he took the ball, and then the child called him a name, so in her child's eyes he was defending himself when he hit - which is NOT okay, but I'm just saying from the childs point of view since in his eyes he wasnt the "first" to act out he needed more time to and also to learn that it doesnt matter if someone does something to you first or not that we can choose to be kind and that being hurtful is never okay.

I am so sorry you had to deal with that from your mom







I go through similar things but its more just her judgement that im not as holy as her because I don't spank. other then that she can't really say her way is better for any reason other then "she said so"... I think she thinks she is better because none of her children have special needs, bt the reality is that both me and brother did/do and she just doesn;t raelize it... which is all still irrelevant anyway so I dont get into it with her anymore. every child is different.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

"they sure do all have their moments. and some children just have different needs, its hard to say because a child is a certain age they should have mastered something. It's like those who can't believe a child is 6 and not potty trained, but don't take into the account the child is autistic. Or the child who is 10 and cant read, but dont take into account the child is dyslexic. They pass judgement on what a child *should* be able to do because of the year that child was born in."

In the cases you describe though they are not hurting other children. If a 7.5 year old is acting more like a 3 or 4 year old I think they need to be supervised more like a 3 or 4 year old.

OP,
I am sorry about the way the Mom treated you. I am wondering if there has been a history of incidents before this one and she was at the end of her rope or if she witnessed more than you did during the open gym and snapped. I am guessing you won't want to hear this suggestion but I am going to put it out there. Do you think if your son and C were to have some supervised one on one time they could be friends?
This story reminded me of a boy at my DD's school. Many kids at school don't like him, they think he is mean. He loses his temper and hits and spits and gets a really scary look on his face when he is angry. But he does have some friends at school. They are all kids that his Mom has made a big effort to have over alot to help her son learn appropriate social skills and to help his friends understand the areas that her son has trouble controlling. It is really nice to see these kids stand up for him when he is having a difficult time. I wonder if your son and C could be an allies instead of antagonizing each other.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Children tend to regress in those harder moments. her child may not act like that all the time. and, it sounds like she WAS supervising very closely, as she saaw the whole thing that played out and the other mother didnt. I supervise my children very closely and they still get a swing in at eachother now and again, even if im 3 feet away. im not faster then superman.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
Children tend to regress in those harder moments. her child may not act like that all the time. and, it sounds like she WAS supervising very closely, as she saaw the whole thing that played out and the other mother didnt. I supervise my children very closely and they still get a swing in at eachother now and again, even if im 3 feet away. im not faster then superman.


Actually the OP said in the 1st post that she did not see the entire incident:

Quote:

I only happened to see DS hitting C the last time. I had him come over immediately and sit down, while I finished nursing the baby and getting DD off and running.
So it is possible that the other mom saw something that the OP did not which may explain somewhat her reaction to the incident.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I stand corrected on that, but it doesnt change how I feel about the situation and about forced apologies or C's mom's behavior and email. Or that closer supservision wouldn't have prevented the hitting from taking place. And apparently nothing stopped the name calling from taking place either.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Well, our kids do have a history together but nothing horrible. C has teased my son and excluded him before. I said nothing to C's mom. C has physically hurt and teased my friend's children so they were in tears. C's mom did nothing. No one said anything to her. Maybe she just has glasses on when she views her child? She said she was teased and excluded as a child and is maybe projecting those fears and worries on C.

And please, before anyone thinks my DS is some sort of horrible hitting freak, it was a rare moment for him. He used to when he was younger because he did not know how to play at all. We have worked with him constantly. He just spent two days in a row initiating and playing with kids he had just met and there were no incidents. He is in a ton of activities and playdates with no problems. This was very rare. I am wondering if he reacted the way he did because of some past tension between he and C.

Regardless, as I said, I thought I handled it ok when it happened and I now realize I didn't and I could have done better. I will absolutely not let something like that happen again. I will handle it better and help my DS handle it better.

What I don't appreciate was her outburst (which she apologized for) or the tone of her email which was condescending and know-it-all. The fact that she accuses my son of acting out again and again. This signifies to me that he cannot do anything right in her eyes. And that her outburst robbed her of the opportunity to teach my son and I a lesson on how to handle anger and bullying. And that my son was the ringleader (he really is more of a follower) who orchestrated the grand exclusion of C when all the other kids said he told them he wanted to be left alone. ANd that this behavior is because we probably don't give him enough attention at home and all he gets from us is negative attention.

This from a woman who at one point before her outburst told her son to go cry about it in the corner because she couldn't help him.

See, I go thinking about it and get all riled up again. I need more time to feel zen about this.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Actually the OP said in the 1st post that she did not see the entire incident:

So it is possible that the other mom saw something that the OP did not which may explain somewhat her reaction to the incident.

I did get the full story from DS and from the other mom in the email. I have left nothing out.

But because C was really upset over the incident (she said in the email he was sensitive) the rest of the open gym time spiralled out of control for him. C's mom blames DS for it all.

IF I had gone over and followed up with her and him over the incident with the ball, I think this wouldn't even be an issue. But I didn't and boy have I learned my lesson.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
I did get the full story from DS and from the other mom in the email. I have left nothing out.

I wasn't implying that you were. I was responding to another poster who stated that you had personally witnessed the entire incident which you yourself stated that you had not in the original post. Just clarifying a point.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
I did get the full story from DS and from the other mom in the email. I have left nothing out.

But because C was really upset over the incident (she said in the email he was sensitive) the rest of the open gym time spiralled out of control for him. C's mom blames DS for it all.

IF I had gone over and followed up with her and him over the incident with the ball, I think this wouldn't even be an issue. But I didn't and boy have I learned my lesson.

Unfortunately I would venture a guess that this woman would have found another opportunity to make this an issue.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this, I admire how you have taken the advice and comments offered in this thread and it sounds like you have a plan for the future.
With respect to the email, I think I agree with the PPs to acknowledge you have received it, indicate that you are dealing with it at home in the same way you are sure she is helping her son understand his role, and that you believe that you can both help the boys have peaceful interactions in the future.
And then I would probably stay away from her as much as possible. She sounds a bit highstrung.

Good luck.
Karen


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 

IF I had gone over and followed up with her and him over the incident with the ball, I think this wouldn't even be an issue. But I didn't and boy have I learned my lesson.









Boy, this mama stuff is tough to negotiate sometimes, isn't it? And each new stage (and each new kid in each new stage!) brings its own challenges. The best we can do is... well, our best. We just keep trying, right?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

your doing great, im glad you feel more prepared for the next time!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Regardless, as I said, I thought I handled it ok when it happened and I now realize I didn't and I could have done better.

I think any parent can say this. Hind sight is 20/20. And you can always go back over a situation and reevaluate what the best solution was. But in the moment, things just are not that easy at times.

But, no matter what you did or did not do, the other mother was totally out of line.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I don't know what you learned from her??? I'm confused when you say that. You did what you could and stayed in line with your parenting. You talked to him and sat him down for awhile and then let him go play.

The other mother was unpredictable and explosive and that's not your fault at all...no lesson to learn there. I think it was showed her true colors when she thought you needed to leave the open play just because the two had an incident. She's had other parents just leave before and she apparently didn't equate it to her son's behavior...maybe she thought your friend was punishing her kids when they left and never realized that it was because her son was being a bully. I wonder where he learned it









I'm still reading this post because I'm hoping to hear your response to her email....I hope you update with what you decided to say...or not say.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:

Regardless, as I said, I thought I handled it ok when it happened and I now realize I didn't and I could have done better. I will absolutely not let something like that happen again. I will handle it better and help my DS handle it better.
Savoury, I'm really impressed at how open you've been to working this through. None of us do it exactly right all of the time (or even most of the time or frequently!). I think you did fine in the first place given that you're herding 3 kids and nursing. Stuff between kids happens fast. I look at these things when they happen in our lives as opportunities for the child and the mom to learn.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Savoury, mama, you have handled this way more graciously and confidently than I would have. I've learned a lot from this thread alone!

As for us, I sure do force apologies.

I'm willing to sit on my six year old until I squish one out if necessary.









My parents forced us to apologize (with a reason, not just a muttered SORRY) and today I don't apologize unless I feel it's necessary and have boat loads of compassion.

I just personally find it distasteful for MY six year old to do something obviously hurtful or rude and not express remorse to the wronged party.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
I don't know what you learned from her??? I'm confused when you say that. You did what you could and stayed in line with your parenting. You talked to him and sat him down for awhile and then let him go play.

The other mother was unpredictable and explosive and that's not your fault at all...no lesson to learn there. I think it was showed her true colors when she thought you needed to leave the open play just because the two had an incident. She's had other parents just leave before and she apparently didn't equate it to her son's behavior...maybe she thought your friend was punishing her kids when they left and never realized that it was because her son was being a bully. I wonder where he learned it









I'm still reading this post because I'm hoping to hear your response to her email....I hope you update with what you decided to say...or not say.

Well, I can't say I learned anything good from her. Just that people can be unpredictable and I should remember that. Like I shouldn't expect the other parent to be cool, yk?

However, the comments here were a good reminder that I should follow up with the other kid of this ever happens again (which I hope it doesn't). And even if DS doesn't want to apologize or feel like he shouldn't, that there are other ways to make amends.

I will respond to her email, but I am still waiting to be calm. I don't want to write and hit send still feeling this anger when I think about her email. I will probably wait a day or two and email her something short and sweet, as it has been suggested.

Anyway, we have decided to leave the co-op she is a part of. I will not feel comfortable there and neither will DS. He was there while she was yelling about him being a bully and he is very confused and hurt by it. I don't think he should be around her if we can help it. We will be polite and DS will apologize to C as he said he would, but I don't think we will try to find her and be around her.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Savoury is an awesome mom, very attentive to her children and very aware of their unique needs. (Unique in the sense that every person is an individual, not in the sense that her kid has "issues" and "needs" that separate him from other kids.)

Her boy is a sweet kid who is often shy and a tad uncomfortable in new social settings and he's got a mom who is very in tune to him and very interested in helping him to cope,interact and genuinely engage.

I'd like to think that most parents are able to see their kids strengths and weaknesses in an objective way and are able to help their kids work through issues as they arise. The reality of parenting is that we all bring to the table our own history, our own issues and trigger points. It's not appropriate to put this personal stuff onto others as C's mom did.

I completely agree with the previous posters who talk about the prevailing thought that a child of X age should have mastered x, y and z skills. I think you can find anger management classes in just about every community....this tells me that a whole lot of adults didn't meet the mark for accomplishing this goal. Life is a learning curve and it's our responsibility to help our children cope with their emotions, help them to find appropriate ways to channel their emotions. I can say that I've witnessed Savoury do this in fine fashion with her boy in a very honest and objective way!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
Savoury is an awesome mom, very attentive to her children and very aware of their unique needs. (Unique in the sense that every person is an individual, not in the sense that her kid has "issues" and "needs" that separate him from other kids.)

Her boy is a sweet kid who is often shy and a tad uncomfortable in new social settings and he's got a mom who is very in tune to him and very interested in helping him to cope,interact and genuinely engage.

I'd like to think that most parents are able to see their kids strengths and weaknesses in an objective way and are able to help their kids work through issues as they arise. The reality of parenting is that we all bring to the table our own history, our own issues and trigger points. It's not appropriate to put this personal stuff onto others as C's mom did.

I completely agree with the previous posters who talk about the prevailing thought that a child of X age should have mastered x, y and z skills. I think you can find anger management classes in just about every community....this tells me that a whole lot of adults didn't meet the mark for accomplishing this goal. Life is a learning curve and it's our responsibility to help our children cope with their emotions, help them to find appropriate ways to channel their emotions. I can say that I've witnessed Savoury do this in fine fashion with her boy in a very honest and objective way!

From everything I have read here I wish I knew Savoury in real life she sounds like she sets a great example, and by her responses here sounds like she is not only a good mother but a good person as well.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
From everything I have read here I wish I knew Savoury in real life she sounds like she sets a great example, and by her responses here sounds like she is not only a good mother but a good person as well.

She is!
















We are all learning....and we all have moments that we wish we could retract and re do. I think it's good that C's mom apologized for her behavior and was able to see that her past baggage colored a good bit of the experience. That shows effort to learn and I commend that. But you can't go making suggestions that because a child is acting out in a situation that he's not getting enough time from his parents or that he's a bully and that he's not being raised right! Those are just wrong assumptions to make about a family!


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
She is!
















We are all learning....and we all have moments that we wish we could retract and re do. I think it's good that C's mom apologized for her behavior and was able to see that her past baggage colored a good bit of the experience. That shows effort to learn and I commend that. But you can't go making suggestions that because a child is acting out in a situation that he's not getting enough time from his parents or that he's a bully and that he's not being raised right! Those are just wrong assumptions to make about a family!









Thanks. I should let you know I am feeling more calm and way less reactionary then when I first got the email! I think I am almost ready to email her back but I will talk to you first


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I hope you change your mind about having your son apologize to hers. You can't count on her to be gracious and you can pretty much assume that she'll take that apology as a chance to lecture your son. She's already said that she wanted to teach him the correct way to behave.

It's a shame that you're leaving the coop. Are there other parents/children that you like in it? I hope you find a better coop soon.

Lisa


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

if you are leaving I would talk to the parents you like before leaving. Let them know that you have really enjoyed their friendship and want to keep in touch... I agree its a shame you are leaving over 1 person, but I can't blame you. I'm sure if the women continues to act this way you wont be the last to leave.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Well, they are only four families left in the co-op. I already talked to the mom who is a good friend, and she is leaving too. So I guess it will be defunct. And we have already found a new co-op with friends on it for all the kids









I will think about DS apologizing. Maybe we should just stay away.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that if you make your ds apologize at this point it will be a huge shaming experience. It would have been nice if he'd apologized at the time, but now this mom has been working on what she'll say, and based on what we've seen so far it's safe to say she won't be nice.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I think thats great Savoury!!!

if your son wants to apologize I would let him, let him do the right thing even if the other mother isn't going to be gracious about it. if she starts to say anything I would interupt and say "isn't it great when children can decide to do the right thing on their own. how wonderful the boys are working this out on their own" and if she tries to continue say "sorry we couldn't stick around! time to go!"

alternately, your son, if he wants to, can send a card apologizing, and you can see if another friend in the group can get it to him so your son can do the right thing without you all having to deal with that toxic woman.


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## mom2my3boyz (Mar 16, 2009)

That sounds really harsh. If it were me, I would have just walked away. I can't stand that kind of confrontation, especially when my kids are around. Sorry you had to go through that! I hope you can find a way to work things out with her if you have to see her in the future.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Savoury, my go at a response to this mother would look something like this:

Dear C's Mom,
I received your email. I spent more time talking with (son's name) and we agree that things could have been handled differently in the moment. In the future he and I will remember this incident and try to learn from it.

I'm sure I will see you around.
Savoury.

Then you are not apologizing or acknowledging her slurs towards your son. It is not letting her be right.

I'm kind of a butthead about not apologizing to rude people though. I will really far out of my way to avoid it.


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## Savoury (Oct 20, 2008)

Update: I just got an email from C's mom through our co-op email group. She explained she was leaving the group because she just filed for divorce from her 2nd husband (6 months marriage?) and C was going to public school while she got them situated.

This makes me realize there was a lot more going on there than meets the eye and I am definitely not taking it so personally now (which is not to say I didn't learn a valuable lesson from the experience and from the posts here).

I will still email her though and close the chapter of this drama.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Savoury* 
Update: I just got an email from C's mom through our co-op email group. She explained she was leaving the group because she just filed for divorce from her 2nd husband (6 months marriage?) and C was going to public school while she got them situated.

This makes me realize there was a lot more going on there than meets the eye and I am definitely not taking it so personally now (which is not to say I didn't learn a valuable lesson from the experience and from the posts here).

I will still email her though and close the chapter of this drama.

Well that seems to explain a lot. She was stressed to the hilt and took it out on you an your Ds. I hope your Ds isn't feeling bad about what happened and you can go back to the Gym and have some fun.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

sounds like it worked out for you being able to stay in the co op. she must be going through so much too.


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

wow...i don't know if i would have been so quiet and patient and nice while she attacked not only MY parenting but MY son. yikes! she reminds me of a woman who verbally attacked and insulted me at my old job. she was awful. my boss did not back me up either...they believed HER and also gave me the ultimatum that i call and apologize to her or basically i'd lose my job. wow... needless to say i needed my job and i did wind up calling that woman BUT i did NOT own the situation as i totally was peaceful and non-violent so to speak in my responses with her. so i just said 'sorry if you were offended by the choices i made...' blah blah.

she was really something. nuts!!!

how old is her son, C???

i bet she truly wants to be a GDing mama.....but probably struggles w/ a mood disorder or something and doesn't quite have the skills to chill out while emotionally distressed... i can relate to that for sure...i've gotten so much better... i bet she is sooo embarassed by her behavior... i bet she believes in being peaceful and kind since you said you heard she is... but is struggling w/ actually carrying it out all the time...

its tough dealing w/ others who expect immediate apologies from our kids when a lot of us GDers don't make our kids do that...they will 'make it right' in their own time... i've noticed though, even other kids are already trained that a child is rude or uncaring if they do not say they are sorry immediately. sigh... it still baffles me how to deal w/ these individuals because i am at a loss so far...

oh i just saw post 172.....yeah i totally can see why she was so on edge and pounced on you...poor mama!!!


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