# Swedish parents decide not to reveal 2-year-old's gender-Thoughts??



## barefootmama0709 (Jun 25, 2009)

http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

(Excerpt)

A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.

Pop's parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pop's sex a secret. Aside from a select few - those who have changed the child's diaper - nobody knows Pop's gender; if anyone enquires, Pop's parents simply say they don't disclose this information.

In an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet in March, the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.

"We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset," Pop's mother said. "It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead."


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I think that is so cool. I totally agree that gender is a social construct, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that androgeny is healthier than leaning to either side.

But to start with one small child... well... that child is going to have an awfully rough time of it, I suspect. I hope they plan to homeschool. We're raised to believe gender is so critical to our identity that bucking the system is going to be difficult for that child unless they are given a ton of support.

Rather than force a single small child to lead this very-needed revolution, seems like it would be better to build a small androgenous community, where all sexes are unknown, and raise the child in that new culture. Otherwise I see decades of therapy for this child (in my crystal ball!). Not because the child was raised wrong but because the world is.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I agree to a point. I guess the day to day living stuff, the fact that we are so used to talking in terms of gender, is what keeps me from following a similar path.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

My initial thought was that the child might have been born with a form of hermaphroditism (sp?) and perhaps they are trying to let the child determine her/his own sex.


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## adlib77 (Nov 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Rather than force a single small child to lead this very-needed revolution, seems like it would be better to build a small androgenous community, where all sexes are unknown, and raise the child in that new culture. Otherwise I see decades of therapy for this child (in my crystal ball!). Not because the child was raised wrong but because the world is.









:


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I remember an essay like that from some feminist theory class I took. "Baby X" or something like that. When I read it, I remember being totally inspired and thinking it was a great idea.

Now though, as a mother, and being 15 years older, I have to totally disagree. I think this is just distracting from real feminism. Androgyny is just not workable, or preferable for most people. We are biologically programmed to have a gender, and it's gratifying to satisfy our gender expectations. I don't see how hiding one child's gender really contributes to less domestic violence, or more family leave time, or equal pay for equal work, or any of the very real issues that exist and need to be addressed by feminism. But maybe they're past all that in Sweden?


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

I don't agree that gender is COMPLETELY socially constructed. Yes there are a LOT of issues with gender stereotypes in today's society and we try to raise our ds as gender neutrally as possible in terms of letting him make decisions about what he wants to wear/play with etc. If he ever wanted us to call him she we'd be fine with it, etc. In fact, he's wearing pink nail polish today and he also likes to wear hair clips, but in clothing he usually chooses shirts with garbage trucks or dinosaurs.

The truth is that there (is evidence out there) that there ARE in fact several biological differences in males vs. females in all sort of ways. We are not born genderless just like we are not born race-less. Such as the way male's literally see and hear the world is different than females. I don't know that it is fair to the child in this situation...it seems like it would be very confusing and I think as the child gets older he/she is going to wonder why he/she isn't allowed to know/say what gender he/she is...

This "movement" reminds of the same group of people who say things like "race doesn't matter" instead of embracing and celebrating both similarities and differences.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Eh, the article says they'll let the LO decide when to reveal gender. My guess is that it will either never matter or the year from age 3 to 4 will be filled with telling every single person on the street about his or her genitals. "I have a penis like Daddy and I'm a boy!!!" as the case may be.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I love it. We are "kinda" doing that. Although we use mostly male pronouns, occansionaly we use "singular they." Ds wears both "girls" and "boys" clothes and engages in activities stereotypical of each gender. Ds has long hair and when people call him a girl or use she I rarely correct them unless it is someone i have to be around a lot and it will come up later. Ds' full name is gender neutral, which we did on purpose as to not force ds into a perscribed gender role. Ds' nickname is "boyish" but when someone thinks he's a girl I usually just use his full name instead.

People react to children differently based on their notions of the child's sex/gender. This way for ds and for Pop they get the best of both worlds, they get to be "pretty" and "strong" They are allowed to be "dainty" and "daring" and I think that's great.. I don't speak swedish so I don't know if there is a standard gender neutral singular pronoun, if there is that would make it easier for the parents and pop growing up.

Eventually Pop will choose what they want to be calledI think eventually Pop will choose their own gender identity which may or may not "match" their biological sex, and then go from there. They will have the benefit of a young childhood free from the restraints of typical gender stereotyping and be able to move forward with the feeling that they are free to be themself no mater who that is


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
My initial thought was that the child might have been born with a form of hermaphroditism (sp?) and perhaps they are trying to let the child determine her/his own sex.









btw the appropriate word is "intersexed"


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Eh, the article says they'll let the LO decide when to reveal gender. My guess is that it will either never matter or the year from age 3 to 4 will be filled with telling every single person on the street about his or her genitals. "I have a penis like Daddy and I'm a boy!!!" as the case may be.

Yeah my friend's son was pretty gender neutral (living in a household with queer and trans folks so it was the "norm") he never said he was a boy or a girl, and when other kids would ask him he would say "i'm just *name*" But once he started at his school at 3 he decided he was a "boy" His first reason was "I have to stand in the boy's line at school" and then later he said "no I just know I am a boy"

So I think Pop will be fine and will "come out" so to speak when they are a little older.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

I think this child is going to have a very hard time growing up because of his/her parent's belief system. We are born a certain gender, and USUALLY we fulfill that role accordingly. Not just because of society, but because of instinct. I understand there are some people who feel out of place in their gender,but that's not the vast majority. I would hate for my child to be referred to as an "it".


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## Gabes Mommy (Jul 1, 2009)

That is interesting. I think that the idea behind it is great, to let the child decide for him/herself who he/she wants to be. I worry that society won't see it that way though. I hope for the best for the family though!


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

For some reason I can't quite articulate, it doesn't sit right with me.

I mean, let's say the family is out at a park. Someone asks them, "Is your child a boy or a girl?" They will then refuse to answer.

Why? Why is it so bad to allow people to know the gender of your child? I just don't see it as such a huge negative.

I DO like raising kids and allowing them to explore and be who they want to be. I do NOT like it when parents say, "No, dolls are for girls. You should play with trucks," to their little boys.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing people to know the gender of your children. And I find it strange that people would refuse to share that information.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
People react to children differently based on their notions of the child's sex/gender. This way for ds and for Pop they get the best of both worlds, they get to be "pretty" and "strong" They are allowed to be "dainty" and "daring" and I think that's great.

Ideally, yes. But I can imagine lots of people in society leaning towards treating a child of unknown gender more like a boy than like a girl. Because it's okay to call a girl strong and daring, but it's not okay to call a boy pretty or dainty (







), so they'd err on the side of the masculine. Hopefully not, but I can see it happening.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it'll be short lived at this point, but I see absolutely no reason why this would cause any problems for a child. When gender matters to Pop, Pop will reveal, and it'll be over.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think it'll be short lived at this point, but I see absolutely no reason why this would cause any problems for a child. When gender matters to Pop, Pop will reveal, and it'll be over.

What Pop reveals may not be what the physical form is though, in which case it will start all over again.


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## sunshadow (May 17, 2009)

That's fine, but I don't really get it. Every child I have know has shown very specific gender differences. Maybe I was only projecting because I knew if they were a boy or a girl, but I think it's inherent. You can be made to be more 'girly' or more 'manly' I suppose, but I think all kids are born pretty much who they are. The main thing is they have a healthy self identity. I think that is better achieved by maybe avoiding commercials and marketing then keeping their sex a secret.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

Hmm. Interesting.

Quote:

For some reason I can't quite articulate, it doesn't sit right with me.

I mean, let's say the family is out at a park. Someone asks them, "Is your child a boy or a girl?" They will then refuse to answer.

Why? Why is it so bad to allow people to know the gender of your child? I just don't see it as such a huge negative.
I think, maybe, their point is that it doesn't matter. So even though it's an innocent question, I guess they are trying to make people re-think why they even want to know if the child is a boy or girl? Will they talk to the child differently or treat them differently based on the answer?

I haven't read the whole article but that's what came to my mind.







:


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## Ceili (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
For some reason I can't quite articulate, it doesn't sit right with me.

I mean, let's say the family is out at a park. Someone asks them, "Is your child a boy or a girl?" They will then refuse to answer.

Why? Why is it so bad to allow people to know the gender of your child? I just don't see it as such a huge negative.

Well boys and girls are treated differently by people. I dress my son somewhat gender neutrally (I don't like sports or reptiles, etc) and he had very long hair until recently. On days when he was looking a little more girl than boy he would get lots of the "oh what a beautiful little girl" comments, at the park parents would instruct their children to "let the little girl go first", strangers were more likely to engage with him in conversation, little girls were more likely to initiate play with him, etc. On days when he was wearing his star wars t-shirt (or some other "boy" thing) those things were significantly less likely to happen, especially the strangers talking to him thing. People seem to be much more likely to engage a little girl in conversation than a little boy.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
btw the appropriate word is "intersexed"

okay, thanks, that was silly of me...


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Ideally, yes. But I can imagine lots of people in society leaning towards treating a child of unknown gender more like a boy than like a girl. Because it's okay to call a girl strong and daring, but it's not okay to call a boy pretty or dainty (







), so they'd err on the side of the masculine. Hopefully not, but I can see it happening.

That has not been the case for us. When someone reads ds as a girl they treat him that way and when they read him a boy they treat him as a boy. I have actually found "girl" to be the default not boy.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
For some reason I can't quite articulate, it doesn't sit right with me.

I mean, let's say the family is out at a park. Someone asks them, "Is your child a boy or a girl?" They will then refuse to answer.

Why? Why is it so bad to allow people to know the gender of your child? I just don't see it as such a huge negative.

I DO like raising kids and allowing them to explore and be who they want to be. I do NOT like it when parents say, "No, dolls are for girls. You should play with trucks," to their little boys.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing people to know the gender of your children. And I find it strange that people would refuse to share that information.


I hate that question. Personally I feel like someone is coming up to me, looking at my kid and asking "penis or vagina?" And I want to say Kid! I am sure when people ask Pop's parents, "oh boy or girl?" They replay "Their name is Pop" which is often how I answer the question except "Their name is August"

I think its strange that you feel like you have the right to know someone's gender? Why do you have the right to know? If you can't tell, then you can't tell, use gender neutral language and get to know the person, which is what is important issue anyway.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I hate that question. Personally I feel like someone is coming up to me, looking at my kid and asking "penis or vagina?" And I want to say Kid! I am sure when people ask Pop's parents, "oh boy or girl?" They replay "Their name is Pop" which is often how I answer the question except "Their name is August"

I think its strange that you feel like you have the right to know someone's gender? Why do you have the right to know? If you can't tell, then you can't tell, use gender neutral language and get to know the person, which is what is important issue anyway.









:

No one would ask "Are you a man or a woman?" of an adult, so why a child?


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## txbikegrrl (Jul 20, 2006)

Actually, I've had kids and teens ask me when I had short hair and was growing out my eyebrows (long story). I'm sure adults wondered but didn't ask.

My DH does a LOT of "feminine" things but is very stereotypically "male" in other ways. Vice versa for me. We are raising DS to do what he wants and we don't have any stereotypic toys.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunshadow* 
That's fine, but I don't really get it. Every child I have know has shown very specific gender differences.

Okay, so what exactly are these 'very specific gender differences' you have observed.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I hate that question. *Personally I feel like someone is coming up to me, looking at my kid and asking "penis or vagina?*" And I want to say Kid! I am sure when people ask Pop's parents, "oh boy or girl?" They replay "Their name is Pop" which is often how I answer the question except "Their name is August"

I think its strange that you feel like you have the right to know someone's gender? *Why do you have the right to know*? If you can't tell, then you can't tell, use gender neutral language and get to know the person, which is what is important issue anyway.

I agree. The gender question always bothered me for that exact reason. They're babies, toddlers, children, not sexual organs.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

Who cares

I can't help but think, is this really news worthy?

Maybe I'm just not radical enough, but who really cares. My daughter is a daughter yes, but she can play with trucks and eat worms and play with dolls and do what she wants. She wears pink, and she wears blue, but I don't need to make a big deal about not "labeling" her.

It just seems so "look at me, giving the finger to the world by refusing to say whether my kids a girl or boy.." I like to think I brought my kid into the world without a P or B stamped on her forehead, and so many other parents do, but it's not in the news

"Child-rearing should not be about providing an opportunity to prove an ideological point, but about responding to each child's needs as an individual," Pinker tells The Local.

And again, maybe I just don't understand


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I think it's fine. I don't understand why anyone would give them a hard time about it. It's interesting how many things are deemed as acceptable decisions for a parent to make for a child, but when someone makes the decision to let their child decide for themselves everyone goes up in arms. I think its great. I think they have a good reason for doing it, and its not like they aren't allowing the child to share their gender they are just waiting for their child to decide. If they werent going to allow the child to tell then I wouldn't like it, but otherwise I think its fine. It may not be something I would do personally, but when it comes to "parents rights" I can definitely support a parents right to let the child decide.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Who cares

I can't help but think, is this really news worthy?

Maybe I'm just not radical enough, but who really cares. My daughter is a daughter yes, but she can play with trucks and eat worms and play with dolls and do what she wants. She wears pink, and she wears blue, but I don't need to make a big deal about not "labeling" her.

It just seems so "look at me, giving the finger to the world by refusing to say whether my kids a girl or boy.." I like to think I brought my kid into the world without a P or B stamped on her forehead, and so many other parents do, but it's not in the news

"Child-rearing should not be about providing an opportunity to prove an ideological point, but about responding to each child's needs as an individual," Pinker tells The Local.

And again, maybe I just don't understand


You hit the nail on the head sister!









Sometimes, I think some people are more into the "image" of being unconventional..then actually putting it to good use in their parenting.


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Who cares

I can't help but think, is this really news worthy?

Maybe I'm just not radical enough, but who really cares. My daughter is a daughter yes, but she can play with trucks and eat worms and play with dolls and do what she wants. She wears pink, and she wears blue, but I don't need to make a big deal about not "labeling" her.

It just seems so "look at me, giving the finger to the world by refusing to say whether my kids a girl or boy.." I like to think I brought my kid into the world without a P or B stamped on her forehead, and so many other parents do, but it's not in the news

"Child-rearing should not be about providing an opportunity to prove an ideological point, but about responding to each child's needs as an individual," Pinker tells The Local....

Best post in this thread.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Who cares

I can't help but think, is this really news worthy?

Maybe I'm just not radical enough, but who really cares. My daughter is a daughter yes, but she can play with trucks and eat worms and play with dolls and do what she wants. She wears pink, and she wears blue, but I don't need to make a big deal about not "labeling" her.

It just seems so "look at me, giving the finger to the world by refusing to say whether my kids a girl or boy.." I like to think I brought my kid into the world without a P or B stamped on her forehead, and so many other parents do, but it's not in the news

"Child-rearing should not be about providing an opportunity to prove an ideological point, but about responding to each child's needs as an individual," Pinker tells The Local.

And again, maybe I just don't understand

I agree with this. My first reaction was, "Well, good for you. Here's a cookie." ???

In all fairness, these parents may not have gone to the press, but the press found out and reported on it, which really isn't the parents fault.

I also feel like they've now drawn even MORE attention to their child's gender. It's actually sort of intriguing now, whereas before I doubt anyone really gave a toss either way.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I hate that question. Personally I feel like someone is coming up to me, looking at my kid and asking "penis or vagina?" And I want to say Kid! I am sure when people ask Pop's parents, "oh boy or girl?" They replay "Their name is Pop" which is often how I answer the question except "Their name is August"

I think its strange that you feel like you have the right to know someone's gender? Why do you have the right to know? If you can't tell, then you can't tell, use gender neutral language and get to know the person, which is what is important issue anyway.

exactly.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I agree. The gender question always bothered me for that exact reason. They're babies, toddlers, children, not sexual organs.

There are MANY differences between the male and female body, and very few of them are sexual organs.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 







:
No one would ask "Are you a man or a woman?" of an adult, so why a child?

you may ask another person if you are unsure. just like you ask a parent about the child

as a francophone, gender is deeply ingrained. its offensive to not use gender. i don't like when people call my baby an 'it' i'd rather them call him a girl. its just small talk anyways people like kids, they can't help but ooh and coo


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Who cares

I agree with this part of your reply. Who cares? why do people care SO much to know the gender of these people's child? The ones who are demanding an answer on the gender and getting worked about not knowing are the ones who are making this into way more then it has to be.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I think this is cool. I can't imagine it can go on forever, but for every day the keep the gender to themselves, that is one more day where their child was not [directly at least] exposed to gender bias. I can't see where this will cause any problems for the child and I doubt they would go to extreme measures to hide it.

I am reminded of a diagram in one of Jesper Juul's books, Your Competent Child, where he shows a diagram of someone setting limits on a child, which looks like a stick figure inside of a circle which surrounds the figure, and a diagram of setting limits to protect yourself, like not allowing a child to hit you, and it looked like a taller figure with an arc separating them from the little figure. I think by the parents not disclosing the gender, they are protecting the child from the incoming messages he/she would doubtless receive based on gender, not forcing some limit upon him that will affect him/her later in life.

I read once that differences in treatment start in the womb when mothers find out their babies' gender. Bellies holding girl babies get more rubs, while bellies holding boy babies get more pats. The messages from society only get more pronounced from there.

Someone in the unschooling forum recently posted a quote from their very young child who said something to the effect, "When I go to school and learn real stuff..." even though the family has always been pro-unschooling. They were shocked that at such a young age the child could have picked up these widespread mainstream views about school. I think a similar case could be made about gender stereotypes. No matter how you try to allow your child to enjoy not being pushed toward gender stereotypes, society will get in the way. These Swedish parents are going the extra mile toward trying to minimize that.

~Tracy


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I bet it was someone who got in a huff about it who brought it to the media's attention.They are probably sadly disappointed that the thrust of the article wasn't "oh those deluded parents destroying their poor innocent child."

Again, Pop gets to choose when to share their gender. So I really don't see why anyone else needs to be up in the family's business.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
I bet it was someone who got in a huff about it who brought it to the media's attention.They are probably sadly disappointed that the thrust of the article wasn't "oh those deluded parents destroying their poor innocent child."

Again, Pop gets to choose when to share their gender. So I really don't see why anyone else needs to be up in the family's business.

I do agree with that part. Seems like they were able to avoid it for a couple years and then someone went to the press. I wonder what happened there/ why.

The grammarian in me is having issues with the "their," since I assume Pop is a singular entity. It guess it's better than s/he?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Normally this is the kind of story that I think would have me rolling my eyes, but I think it's a cool idea. Not because I think it will work perfectly or because I think we are striving for androgyny in society, or because I think the differences between the sexes aren't important, but because we have so many ideas tied up with gender and it is so integral with us that we start forming our mindset about people from the moment we know their gender even in the womb. We claim it is all nature and instinct, but a lot of it is the social construct aspect of it, and anything that gets us to reexamine it might have some usefulness.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

I think its strange that you feel like you have the right to know someone's gender? Why do you have the right to know? If you can't tell, then you can't tell, use gender neutral language and get to know the person, which is what is important issue anyway.
It's not that I feel I have the right to know. I just don't understand the huge deal about hiding it. About refusing to use personal pronouns. I mean, the child IS either a girl or a boy. It IS either a he or a she. (Yes, there is a remote chance that the child is transgendered, in which case this would be the perfect way to allow him/her to grow without stress. But I didn't get the feeling that the possibility of transgender was the reason behind the parents' decision.)

I don't know. I'm having a hard time articulating what I feel. I mean, I don't think it's horrible and outrageous and awful, what those parents are doing. There's just _something_ about it..... I don't know. I find it very interesting, though.

eta: This is coming from a mama whose 4.5 year old son sometimes dresses up in his big sister's clothes to go to the park or the store. So I'm not one of those parents who insists that kids fit into certain gender stereotypes.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
you may ask another person if you are unsure. just like you ask a parent about the child

as a francophone, gender is deeply ingrained. its offensive to not use gender. i don't like when people call my baby an 'it' i'd rather them call him a girl. its just small talk anyways people like kids, they can't help but ooh and coo


Why would the word 'it' be the only other option than boy or girl. What's wrong with 'baby', 'little one', 'darling', 'babe', 'sweetums', 'child', or gosh, how about using their name.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 







:

No one would ask "Are you a man or a woman?" of an adult, so why a child?

It would take somebody about 2 seconds to look at me and see that I'm a woman. I have these huge growths on my chest that kind of give it away.







That wasn't the case when I was a toddler.

As for the family in the article: It's not something I'd do with any of my own kids, but I fail to see the harm in what this family is doing. As long as they're willing to disclose the child's sex when Pop wants to. If they were planning on telling Pop "no, don't say that, your gender is a secret!" when Pop *wanted* to identify as female or male, that would be harmful. But it doesn't sound like they have any plans of doing that.


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## Stephenie (Oct 11, 2007)

I would worry that Pop would think his/ her gender was a bad thing, something to be afraid/ ashamed of of and hide.

I am all for downplaying the stereotypes and following your child's lead, however when it's done more to prove a point than for the sake of a child it could be unfair and irresponsible.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
It would take somebody about 2 seconds to look at me and see that I'm a woman. I have these huge growths on my chest that kind of give it away.







That wasn't the case when I was a toddler.

As for the family in the article: It's not something I'd do with any of my own kids, but I fail to see the harm in what this family is doing. As long as they're willing to disclose the child's sex when Pop wants to. If they were planning on telling Pop "no, don't say that, your gender is a secret!" when Pop *wanted* to identify as female or male, that would be harmful. But it doesn't sound like they have any plans of doing that.

Well I know both men and women who don't look any specific gender most of the time. They never get people asking if they are a man or a woman.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Why is being a gender so negative? I mean there are boys and girls, men and women-we _are_ in fact _different_ biologically. I guess it's just not a big deal to me.

I honestly think that it is a little weird personally, JMO.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
What Pop reveals may not be what the physical form is though, in which case it will start all over again.

No, in that unlikely but possible circumstance, it will be easier than it would be otherwise. If Pop is a girl with boy parts, all Pop has to say at 4 is "I'm a girl" and everyone will treat her like a girl. If Pop is a girl with boy parts and has been treated like a boy all along, it would be more difficult for her to have everyone around her re-learn what gender she is. For instance.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
No, in that unlikely but possible circumstance, it will be easier than it would be otherwise. If Pop is a girl with boy parts, all Pop has to say at 4 is "I'm a girl" and everyone will treat her like a girl. If Pop is a girl with boy parts and has been treated like a boy all along, it would be more difficult for her to have everyone around her re-learn what gender she is. For instance.

Except that now it's in the media. There is a change that in that not-nessicarily unlikely circumstance that someone will go to the media and say "See, they messed him/her up. He/she doesn't have a clear idea of gender."


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Why is being a gender so negative? I mean there are boys and girls, men and women-we _are_ in fact _different_ biologically. I guess it's just not a big deal to me.

I honestly think that it is a little weird personally, JMO.

That biological difference doesn't always dictate ones gender.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I just don't understand the huge deal about hiding it.

I also don't understand what the big deal is about hiding it - but from a different angle then you/ why do people care if they temporarily hide it so the child can decide for themselves whether or not to reveal it. or so their child can be treated for who they are and not what gender they are until it "shows" (if it shows) in adulthood.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snuzzmom* 
The grammarian in me is having issues with the "their," since I assume Pop is a singular entity. It guess it's better than s/he?

I like ze and hir, although I believe there are other gender-neutral personal pronouns in use as well.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Why is being a gender so negative?

why is someone else knowing your gender positive?
why is important? why is it important to others to know someone _elses_ gender.

as usual, anything new or different is considered weird. And also some people think boys are weird. and some think girls are weird. and people think not knowing which gender is weird. can't make everyone happy but you can make yourself and your child happy and thats what these people are doing.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Well I know both men and women who don't look any specific gender most of the time. They never get people asking if they are a man or a woman.









It's a HUGE social taboo to ask that of an adult. It's not that people can figure it out or that they don't care... it's just something you don't ask!!!

*cough* There are women who try to look manly. I don't know if there is a polite way to say it. I do know a not so polite term for it. But such a woman came after us once when we had gone grocery shopping - I bought my son a candy bar (gasp!) and left it at the register. She came out and gave it to us and I said to my son "Oh, tell him thank you for bringing you the candy bar!"

She looked like a 17 year old boy. Flat chest, greased back hair, smooth face...

But as she was leaving I thought Oh my god, that was a SHE.

I think.

I THINK it was a she! But I wasn't sure.

And I thought, did I offend her?? Or WAS it a he? Do I yell after her, I'm sorry, I thought you were a guy! Would that be worse? What do I do???

SO a day or so later I told my friend about this, oh, that one bagger at Nob Hill, is it a he or she? And she knew who I meant... and she said she THINKS it's a she...

Turns out it was a she... and I felt like an ass.

OTOH I suppose if that is the look you are going to cultivate... and this was a cultivated look, not just what she happened to look like ... you have to expect such occurances... but I felt like a fool.

But it would have been even worse to say "Be sure to tell IT thank you for the candy bar!"

Yes I could have said "Be sure to tell the bagger thank you for the candy bar!" but that's just getting wordy.

"Them" or "their" or whatever is not correct gramatically. Even though it sounds OK.

It starts to feel stiff and stilted and akward to always use a neutral pronoun.... yes you COULD just say "baby" or "child" but ... come on.

"Oh, your baby is so cute, I just love that outfit your baby has on, the color just matches your baby's eyes!" or "Your child just fell off the top of the climbing structure and your child is really crying, I think your child may have broken his leg and we need to get your child to a hospital!"

I think it's just easier to talk if you know whether or not to say he or she... and people don't want to embarass themselves by guessing wrong. It's not so much they want to inflict gender stereotypes as they want conversations to be painless. It's not so much that gender matters as there's not a good and easy and correct way to speak without knowing gender.

My son has long hair and people do sometimes mistake him for a girl, which he HATES... I think he looks like a total boy but whatever. It's not down to his butt, it's just a longish dutchboy cut. I usually find a way to throw in "he" or "my son" pretty quickly when I meet someone new so they don't make the mistake and embarass themself.

Wow this feels disjointed.

This child's life is going to be like an ad-libbed Pat skit until the secret is revealed!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

My guess is the woman didn't really care much. She's probably aware that she looks fairly androgynous at the very least.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snuzzmom* 
The grammarian in me is having issues with the "their," since I assume Pop is a singular entity. It guess it's better than s/he?

Way back in 1982, in my freshman English class, our teacher explained that, when in doubt, it is now acceptable (according to some official language governing body) to refer to a singular as 'their' in certain circumstances. It's handy, but it still bugs me. It just sounds wrong.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Why would the word 'it' be the only other option than boy or girl. What's wrong with 'baby', 'little one', 'darling', 'babe', 'sweetums', 'child', or gosh, how about using their name.









Good point.

Quote:

"We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset," Pop's mother said. "*It's cruel* to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead."
Being very literal-minded and argumentative, I disagree with this. Letting society know what sex your child is is not inherently cruel.

But the reality is there are sex differences and some of those differences are abused.

I don't object in the least to what these parents are doing, though. It's interesting. But for me I think it's best to address gender specific injustices directly, rather than trying to avoid them altogether.

By the way, I love the name Pop! It's cute! But Pop is also another name for father. My husband and his siblings call their dad Pop.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

I just find it distasteful when parents use a child to further their own socio-political ideas. In my area a parent sued the school district because her son wasn't allowed to pass out candy canes with a Christian message attached to his class. It was kindergarten, the kids in the class couldn't even read the message, and the actual kid didn't care. His mother (and her organization) wanted a test case so they dragged this little kid into the spotlight claiming he was traumatized over not being allowed to practice his faith.

Sorry to go so OT, but to me they are the same thing. Parents with an agenda that they push through their kid, who has no say in the matter.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I just find it distasteful when parents use a child to further their own socio-political ideas. In my area a parent sued the school district because her son wasn't allowed to pass out candy canes with a Christian message attached to his class. It was kindergarten, the kids in the class couldn't even read the message, and the actual kid didn't care. His mother (and her organization) wanted a test case so they dragged this little kid into the spotlight claiming he was traumatized over not being allowed to practice his faith.

Sorry to go so OT, but to me they are the same thing. Parents with an agenda that they push through their kid, who has no say in the matter.

but the child DOES have a say in the matter. the child gets to pick its clothes every morning if its "boys" clothes or "girls" clothes and they teach the child about anatomy and will allow the child to reveal their gender if/when they want to.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
That biological difference doesn't always dictate ones gender.

I get that, but most of the time there is a difference biologically.

I honestly don't see why so many people get their feathers all ruffled over gender. I mean I get it when it is in a negative way, but what bothers me is so much is put on the negatives of gender. Why is it so positive to be gender neutral-I just don't think there is one "right" way about this.

I think it is odd that no one knows, but do I care, umm no, it really is none of my business. I think that the parents making a big media frenzy over it is honestly much more detrimental to this child, than whether or not the child is a girl or a boy. This seems more about the parents than them trying to protect their child from the big bad world of being gender stereotyped.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:

Children are curious about their own identity, and are likely to gravitate towards others of the same sex during free play time in early childhood." says Susan Pinker, a psychologist and newspaper columnist from Toronto, Canada, who wrote the book The Sexual Paradox, which focuses on sex differences in the workplace.
I think this quote from the article is completely off base and unrelated to the situation. The parents are not hiding Pop's gender from Pop, they're just choosing to not identify their child 'to others' as male or female.

Also, what Susan Pinker says about children gravitating to their own gender playmates is just wrong/inaccurate/not true.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Why is it so positive to be gender neutral-I just don't think there is one "right" way about this.

Now we agree. This is what I think, that there is no right way, so people need to stop telling these gender neutral parents their way is the wrong way. its not. its one of the right ways.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I shared this with some other parents, and one said she was disgusted they "make" the child wear dresses (if they turn out to be a boy).


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Who cares

I can't help but think, is this really news worthy?


I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
I think this is cool. I can't imagine it can go on forever, but for every day the keep the gender to themselves, that is one more day where their child was not [directly at least] exposed to gender bias.

See, but that is why this whole thing is missing the point... It shouldn't be that we have to HIDE a person's sex to not have gender bias.

And, for the "all babies are born babies and sex doesn't matter..." There will be a lot of feminist mamas who have bought their boys babydolls that have languished while they only crash trucks and daughters who only wear pink sparkly skirts (me and my sister- I have a son and a room of traditionally "girl things" that sit there, my sister has a masters in womens' studies and a daughter who wants to wear princess clothes all the time... Both have never been in daycare, are TV free, husbands are feminists as well, etc.). Not ALL kids ALL the time, but biology does count. There is a reason that male and female are different and recognizing the opposite sex is vitally important in the animal world for reproduction. Humans have their own take on it, but with a sexually reproducing species, knowing who to go to make babies with is where all the biology boils down. We, as a society have to come beyond that, but to deny it is there is ultimately counter-productive.

And... we ALL choose our gender (sex is the parts your born with, gender is which one you feel. Most of the time they are the same, sometimes they are different). For those who chose a gender that is not their sex, there is a tough row to hoe. THAT is the problem. Everyone is all worked up about a toddler, "waiting for them to choose". Pop could CHANGE his/her MIND later. As could any child. So, waiting for them seems silly if we were all more accepting of what others decisions are. And, if those decisions did not include hard and fast rules (boys don't wear pink, girls don't have short hair, whatever). Making a big deal of language acrobatics and getting everyone all worked up seems pointless if we could say "Pop is male and decided to be female, so here she is" at whatever point in his/her life the decision was made. So, my kids were born boys. Since for most people, gender and sex is the same, we'll go with boys unless they say different. Then, we'll roll with it. I don't need to "wait" for them to decide for me to be accepting of who they are, as life brings many changes and takes a while to have some things come clear.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Why is being a gender so negative? I mean there are boys and girls, men and women-we _are_ in fact _different_ biologically. I guess it's just not a big deal to me.

I honestly think that it is a little weird personally, JMO.


This was my first thought as well. Makes about as much sense as everyone running around wearing full-body paper bags so that the issues of different races would magically disappear. I think it'd be far more productive to embrace differences and educate kids on the positives of being either... along with continuing the work toward equality and respect for all people.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Just for the record.. you could have had your child simply say, "say thank you."







This way you weren't addresses if the bagger was a him or a her.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I get that, but most of the time there is a difference biologically.

I honestly don't see why so many people get their feathers all ruffled over gender. I mean I get it when it is in a negative way, but what bothers me is so much is put on the negatives of gender. Why is it so positive to be gender neutral-I just don't think there is one "right" way about this.

I think it is odd that no one knows, but do I care, umm no, it really is none of my business. I think that the parents making a big media frenzy over it is honestly much more detrimental to this child, than whether or not the child is a girl or a boy. This seems more about the parents than them trying to protect their child from the big bad world of being gender stereotyped.

With what the parents in the article are doing isn't so much as gender neutral as it is gender inclusive. Their child has pants and dresses. They aren't trying to eliminate all gender they are trying to include both genders.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

Oh my







:, this is gender neutral gone wrong.

Personally i find it equally sad parents who don't let their son wear pink because it's too girly and parents who don't let their daughter wear pink because it's no GN enough, I hope that once this child is old enough the parents will follow his/her lead on gender issues.

I personally do believe that gender is a big part of who we are, and not because society told me so you can see it in tribes and animals males and females ARE different, I love every bit of my womanhood and I'm very proud to be a woman. I don't want to be equal to men I want us to all have the same rights and opportunities, but within whatever gender a person chooses to identify with I think people should embrace their gender.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
With what the parents in the article are doing isn't so much as gender neutral as it is gender inclusive. Their child has pants and dresses. They aren't trying to eliminate all gender they are trying to include both genders.

You can still do that while aknowledging the child's born sex... "He"s can wear dresses







.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
You can still do that while aknowledging the child's born sex... "He"s can wear dresses







.

Yeah but what they are doing is eliminating the "why is your son wearing a dress?" factor.









Let their child be who he/she is with out having to worry about the nasty comments some people will make for the time being.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

A rose by any other name (or nameless)...


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

The debate you all are having is interesting to follow. My first thought was simply how freeing for my children it would be if they hadn't, already at ages 3 and 4, been exposed to a world of such grand gender bias.

My ds does something "rough and tumble," the same thing dd probably did an hour earlier, and a woman near us at the park says in a voice audible to *both* ds and dd, "He's all boy, isn't he?"

My ds is extremely handsome, but folks fawn over my dd for how "pretty" she is non-stop, while rarely commenting on her very high activity level. dd's activity level is way higher than ds' activity level, but ds is constantly told he's a "busy boy!"

My close friend, who is totally p.c. in a million ways, was watching her son play "firefighter" and "shoot" the water out of the hose, and she turned to me in front of all our kids and said (fortunately, fairly quietly), "boys just play differently don't they?" Meanwhile, ds has never thought to make anything "shoot" and dd is the one I could see doing that.

A birth relative of ds gave the kids both teddy bears recently. ds received the green one, dd the purple one. Nevermind that ds' all time FAVORITE color is purple.

People engage with dd in conversation way more than ds, even more than I can imagine explaining by way of ds' speech delays. Meanwhile, ds has all kinds of interesting things to say.

When guy relatives start gathering the kids to play football, it seems like our total jock dd is the last to be invited (most of the time we have to ask for her to be invited)...meanwhile all the male cousins, even ones younger than her, are quickly included (ds is invited, but most often declines).

The list could go on and on.

I wish they could be more free to be authentically who they are without constant questioning.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
With what the parents in the article are doing isn't so much as gender neutral as it is gender inclusive. Their child has pants and dresses. They aren't trying to eliminate all gender they are trying to include both genders.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Also, what Susan Pinker says about children gravitating to their own gender playmates is just wrong/inaccurate/not true.
Maybe in your experience, but I've worked with kids for ten years, and had my own for 8 1/2, and I have found that to be the case.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
The debate you all are having is interesting to follow. My first thought was simply how freeing for my children it would be if they hadn't, already at ages 3 and 4, been exposed to a world of such grand gender bias.

My ds does something "rough and tumble," the same thing dd probably did an hour earlier, and a woman near us at the park says in a voice audible to *both* ds and dd, "He's all boy, isn't he?"

My ds is extremely handsome, but folks fawn over my dd for how "pretty" she is non-stop, while rarely commenting on her very high activity level. dd's activity level is way higher than ds' activity level, but ds is constantly told he's a "busy boy!"

My close friend, who is totally p.c. in a million ways, was watching her son play "firefighter" and "shoot" the water out of the hose, and she turned to me in front of all our kids and said (fortunately, fairly quietly), "boys just play differently don't they?" Meanwhile, ds has never thought to make anything "shoot" and dd is the one I could see doing that.

A birth relative of ds gave the kids both teddy bears recently. ds received the green one, dd the purple one. Nevermind that ds' all time FAVORITE color is purple.

People engage with dd in conversation way more than ds, even more than I can imagine explaining by way of ds' speech delays. Meanwhile, ds has all kinds of interesting things to say.

When guy relatives start gathering the kids to play football, it seems like our total jock dd is the last to be invited (most of the time we have to ask for her to be invited)...meanwhile all the male cousins, even ones younger than her, are quickly included (ds is invited, but most often declines).

The list could go on and on.

I wish they could be more free to be authentically who they are without constant questioning.









: Arbitrary gender stereotypes are harmful and they do shape and mold our children no matter how much some of us try to shield them.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Yeah but what they are doing is eliminating the "why is your son wearing a dress?" factor.









Let their child be who he/she is with out having to worry about the nasty comments some people will make for the time being.


Yes, but the point (and the long-term solution) isn't that we "avoid" nasty comments, but fight them. That is why this is not fair to put a child in the center of this.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Wonder what they fill in forms. The psychological gender and the physiological gender are both part of ones identity. Does society force you into a gender mold or is it your acceptance/expression of gender that creates the norm?


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

The debate you all are having is interesting to follow. My first thought was simply how freeing for my children it would be if they hadn't, already at ages 3 and 4, been exposed to a world of such grand gender bias.

My ds does something "rough and tumble," the same thing dd probably did an hour earlier, and a woman near us at the park says in a voice audible to *both* ds and dd, "He's all boy, isn't he?"

My ds is extremely handsome, but folks fawn over my dd for how "pretty" she is non-stop, while rarely commenting on her very high activity level. dd's activity level is way higher than ds' activity level, but ds is constantly told he's a "busy boy!"

My close friend, who is totally p.c. in a million ways, was watching her son play "firefighter" and "shoot" the water out of the hose, and she turned to me in front of all our kids and said (fortunately, fairly quietly), "boys just play differently don't they?" Meanwhile, ds has never thought to make anything "shoot" and dd is the one I could see doing that.

A birth relative of ds gave the kids both teddy bears recently. ds received the green one, dd the purple one. Nevermind that ds' all time FAVORITE color is purple.

People engage with dd in conversation way more than ds, even more than I can imagine explaining by way of ds' speech delays. Meanwhile, ds has all kinds of interesting things to say.

When guy relatives start gathering the kids to play football, it seems like our total jock dd is the last to be invited (most of the time we have to ask for her to be invited)...meanwhile all the male cousins, even ones younger than her, are quickly included (ds is invited, but most often declines).

The list could go on and on.

I wish they could be more free to be authentically who they are without constant questioning.
I'm going to quote you too!

I have a dd and a ds, and I have had similar experiences to what you describe.

But I'm not sure that hiding a child's gender is the solution. Maybe a very, very temporary one, but not a long-term way to deal with this issue.

Quote:

Yes, but the point (and the long-term solution) isn't that we "avoid" nasty comments, but fight them. That is why this is not fair to put a child in the center of this.
Totally agree.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
You can still do that while aknowledging the child's born sex... "He"s can wear dresses







.

totally true my friend's son wear dresses more than my DD. I just find this whole thing kinda silly, it's just another thing to grab onto for the media. I still believe this is more for the parent's to gather attention(whether it be good or bad) then it really is about the child getting to be whatever he/she may want to be.

What I find odd is that no really has seen except mom and dad, does anyone else find it odd considering how hard it is to keep clothing on a 2.5 y/o?(I'm joking, but for me it's nearly impossible to keep my DD clothed).


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Wonder what they fill in forms. The psychological gender and the physiological gender are both part of ones identity. Does society force you into a gender mold or is it your acceptance/expression of gender that creates the norm?

What forms? They live in Sweden. Pop is only 2 years old.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I haven't read the replies, but my 2 cents is that I wish parents would not use their children to make their own political statements. There's trying to make the world a better place for your child and using your child as a billboard . . . My heart goes out to that child and all the emotional baggage this is going to cause (which, is what his/her parents were hoping to prevent, right?).


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TropicalGirl* 
Oh my







:, this is gender neutral gone wrong.

Personally i find it equally sad parents who don't let their son wear pink because it's too girly and parents who don't let their daughter wear pink because it's no GN enough, *I hope that once this child is old enough the parents will follow his/her lead on gender issues.*

I personally do believe that gender is a big part of who we are, and not because society told me so you can see it in tribes and animals males and females ARE different, I love every bit of my womanhood and I'm very proud to be a woman. I don't want to be equal to men I want us to all have the same rights and opportunities, but within whatever gender a person chooses to identify with I think people should embrace their gender.

they are already doing this. they allow the child to choose between both boys clothes and girls clothes. the child has been taught about male body parts and female body parts. the only ting these parents are doing is they are referring to the child as who they are without the gender attached. They call Pop by his/her name. "This is Pop" instead of "this is our daughter/son, Pop" and they have said that whenever Pop wants to reveal Pop's gender that they support Pop in doing that.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
Yes, but the point (and the long-term solution) isn't that we "avoid" nasty comments, but fight them. That is why this is not fair to put a child in the center of this.

I get the feeling they are trying to avoid putting the child at the center of all that by not putting said child in a situation where they are required to either conform or stand up for themself.

The child is two, if their first thought was to make an example they would have announced to the papers much earlier then intend to keep the gender a secret.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I missed the part of the article where they said they are doing this as a political statement. can someone point that out to me so I know what we are talking about here


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## laneysprout (Aug 5, 2006)

I love it. This is not about minimizing gender or denying biological sex. It's about maximizing gender - and hence, the expansion of opportunities - for their child.

And I don't remember who said this, but for the record, we are NOT in fact born with a gender. We are born with a biological SEX and usually ASSIGNED a gender based on attributes that have developed in such a way as to become socially linked with one sex OR another.

What's wrong with gender characteristics? Nothing, when they can and are applied equally regardless of sex. When they are arbitrarily assigned to us n the basis of a physical difference, then they limit our potential. It seems to me, THAT is what these parents are hoping to avoid.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
What forms? They live in Sweden. Pop is only 2 years old.

Swedes are exempt from filling out forms? If it hasn't come up before, as Pop grows it may be required sometime in the future. Just a technicality.


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## barefootmama0709 (Jun 25, 2009)

I found this article interesting and wanted to get others' take on it. I only have two boys-ODS is fairly typically masculine in a lot of ways-he LOVES anything with wheels on it. He is also loud and loves to play in the dirt. However, he has a beautiful face-people used to comment on it when he was a baby. Now that he's almost two people would feel it was insulting to call my son beautiful but I would still be complimented. I don't think that all children gravitate towards same-sex playmates-I've always been more comfortable around men than women and I am a "girly" type of girl. Unfortunately, an action such as not revealing a child's gender will be seen as very radical and the child will probably be treated differently because of it, even in Sweden, which is known for being a very progressive country.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stephenie* 
I would worry that Pop would think his/ her gender was a bad thing, something to be afraid/ ashamed of of and hide.

I have met quite a few kids who did feel this way about being boys and/or girls because of the social constraints placed on them.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

On the topic of "singular they"

singular they is used in Shakespeare
singular they is used in the Bible
singular they is used in speech on a regular basis, and can easliy be 'hey and 'hem and *more* neutral to number as well

I use singular they for anyone we don't know. If i see a kid with long hair, a shirt that says "i'm a pretty little girl" and a long flowing skirt swinging at the park I say "look at that kid they look like they are having fun"

Only once I have met someone and know their pronoun preference do i use one. But that is probably because i am part of a queer community where I almost have more friends who *are* trans than aren't


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

on being asked if you are a boy or a girl or a man or a woman

this happens ALL THE TIME to folks who don't fit into gender stereotypical experiences. it has happened to me since my first short haircut at age 9 and contiues to happen to me even as breastfeeding mama

this happens to transgendered people ALL THE TIME. it is harrassment, it is dangerous, it leads to violence, it is horrendous, it leads to murders.

That is why I hate when people ask it about children, it sets up a precedent that it is okay to ask, you are required to tell, and others have the right to know.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
On the topic of "singular they"

singular they is used in Shakespeare
singular they is used in the Bible
singular they is used in speech on a regular basis, and can easliy be 'hey and 'hem and *more* neutral to number as well

The Bible wasn't originally written in English. In Hebrew, there are *no* gender-neutral pronouns, not even plurals. All objects, even things like books and plates, have a grammatical gender.

If you're thinking of "a singular They in the Bible" then you're thinking of a specific translation. That, or you're thinking of specific verses that were originally written in the "plural masculine" format, as well as being debatable whether it was truly meant to be "singular".

I beleive you about the Shakespear although I'm not familiar with any specific examples.

As for "the singular they" being used in colloquial American English- it definitely *IS* used. It still "sounds wrong" to me, even though it's well understood, and truly is an example of the way languages change over time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
What I find odd is that no really has seen except mom and dad, does anyone else find it odd considering how hard it is to keep clothing on a 2.5 y/o?(I'm joking, but for me it's nearly impossible to keep my DD clothed).









I've had kids who were more "nudist" than others. Even with the ones who hated clothing, I was usually able to at least keep a diaper on. (None of my kids were still in that phase by the time they were ready for underwear.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Wonder what they fill in forms. The psychological gender and the physiological gender are both part of ones identity. Does society force you into a gender mold or is it your acceptance/expression of gender that creates the norm?

I can only guess that they were able to keep that little box blank on official forms. Even newborns need to be listed on things like tax forms (to list a new child as a dependent), health insurance forms (maybe that's not needed in Sweden?) etc.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

I think that it's rather silly. Jumping up and down shrieking "I'm making a statement!" doesn't make a statement. It makes a lot of noise.

I'd be sad if I grew up to find out that for the first years of my life I was called "it," because, as pc as everyone here is trying to be, I'd bet my last dollar that that's what people are doing just because there's nothing else to say.

It's easy to go on a message board and carefully type out pc worded responses, but in the real world, that kid is a boy or a girl and has to live in a world where (almost, I guess) everyone else is a boy or a girl and their is nothing wrong with those differences. If he grows up and decides to be a mommy or she grows up and becomes Albert James, then whatever floats his boat, but at two it kinda is what it is. No amount of "Look how nonconformist and unconventional we are!" is going to change that.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

The child is named and referred to as "Pop" not "called it" and if someone is calling a child "it" because they are in ahuff they don't know the gender that speaks worse of that person (who is just refusing to use the name Pop that was provided when asked the gender) then it does about the parents who agreed to an interview about their choice.


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## laneysprout (Aug 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
but at two it kinda is what it is. No amount of "Look how nonconformist and unconventional we are!" is going to change that.

That's the point, though. At two it IS nothing. But all that gendering DOES change it, and for most of us, irrevocably.

It genuinely surprises me that more people don't see it as irresponsible and dangerous and bad for kids to force them into reductive roles on the basis of their sex... and that so many think the parents are doing it for selfish reasons!

Especially on a board like MDC where most of us think "outside the box" about how we rear our children, I guess I would expect more support for something like this.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Why do people assume this is a political statement and not an choice they've honestly made because they feel it's in the best interest of their child? They want to see how Pop will grow up without any gender expectations. Allow Pop to be Pop, whoever that is, without any outside gender stereotypes impacting that. I'm sure Pop will discover gender stereotypes soon enough anyway. I don't see why this is a big deal or a problem.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Why do people assume this is a political statement and not an choice they've honestly made because they feel it's in the best interest of their child? They want to see how Pop will grow up without any gender expectations. Allow Pop to be Pop, whoever that is, without any outside gender stereotypes impacting that. I'm sure Pop will discover gender stereotypes soon enough anyway. I don't see why this is a big deal or a problem.

I asked the same thing, and I'm quoting it so it will show up on this page twice so maybe someone will answer us


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that is really neat. Girls and boys are treated differently and it is stifling. I think the child will pick up these things from other children and society though so it does seem a little overboard. I also wonder if they are going to tell their child what the names of their body parts are. I think if they don't then that could lead to the child feeling ashamed of their body. I also wonder if the child will grow up and decide at some point that his/her parents did this because they wanted a child of the opposite sex and therefore they aren't good enough.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think that is really neat. Girls and boys are treated differently and it is stifling. I think the child will pick up these things from other children and society though so it does seem a little overboard. *I also wonder if they are going to tell their child what the names of their body parts are.* I think if they don't then that could lead to the child feeling ashamed of their body. I also wonder if the child will grow up and decide at some point that his/her parents did this because they wanted a child of the opposite sex and therefore they aren't good enough.

they already do.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laneysprout* 
That's the point, though. At two it IS nothing. But all that gendering DOES change it, and for most of us, irrevocably.

It genuinely surprises me that more people don't see it as irresponsible and dangerous and bad for kids to force them into reductive roles on the basis of their sex... and that so many think the parents are doing it for selfish reasons!

Especially on a board like MDC where most of us think "outside the box" about how we rear our children, I guess I would expect more support for something like this.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Why do people assume this is a political statement and not an choice they've honestly made because they feel it's in the best interest of their child? They want to see how Pop will grow up without any gender expectations. Allow Pop to be Pop, whoever that is, without any outside gender stereotypes impacting that. I'm sure Pop will discover gender stereotypes soon enough anyway. I don't see why this is a big deal or a problem.









: I wish all of our children were given the right to be who they are w/o being forced into boxes based on their sex organs. We really have no clue what boys/girls would do naturally with out gender stereotyping, I've yet to meet a person untouched by said stereotypes. We have no idea how much is societal instead of nature. And we have no idea how many children don't actually fit so nicely into those boxes. Children should just be children and not defined by the fact they have a penis or vulva.
I don't think what these parents are doing is so off the wall but I sure as hell think defining who children can be by their sex organ is.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
The child is named and referred to as "Pop" not "called it" and if someone is calling a child "it" because they are in ahuff they don't know the gender that speaks worse of that person (who is just refusing to use the name Pop that was provided when asked the gender) then it does about the parents who agreed to an interview about their choice.

And for the people of the world who aren't fortunate enough to know Pop's name?

People do it all the time. Not in reference to that kid, but it happened on this thread when someone wasn't certain of a gender. It happens. No one means that a particular individual is equivalent to a dresser or a can of peas, but without a name you have he, she, and...


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
And for the people of the world who aren't fortunate enough to know Pop's name?

People do it all the time. Not in reference to that kid, but it happened on this thread when someone wasn't certain of a gender. It happens. No one means that a particular individual is equivalent to a dresser or a can of peas, but without a name you have he, she, and...

give me an example

if you know about Pop from reading the story you would use the name Pop.

if you don't know Pop, and see Pop on the street, and can't tell if Pop is a boy or girl, how is that different then any other child on the street whose gender you can't tell? Are those parents bad because they arent carrying a sign that says "this is a 'boy' or 'girl' child. do people call all those children "it" or is somehow this ONLY going to happen to Pop?

If you go up to the parent to ask, and then they say "This is Pop" then you know its pop.

I can't see a situation where anyone will need to call Pop "it" anymore then they would have to towards any other child they haven't met yet who isn't in obviously a certain gendered clothing.


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## Inci (Apr 22, 2005)

I think this is really cool.

Tracy, I appreciate what you say here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
I read once that differences in treatment start in the womb when mothers find out their babies' gender. Bellies holding girl babies get more rubs, while bellies holding boy babies get more pats. The messages from society only get more pronounced from there.

Someone in the unschooling forum recently posted a quote from their very young child who said something to the effect, "When I go to school and learn real stuff..." even though the family has always been pro-unschooling. They were shocked that at such a young age the child could have picked up these widespread mainstream views about school. I think a similar case could be made about gender stereotypes. No matter how you try to allow your child to enjoy not being pushed toward gender stereotypes, society will get in the way. These Swedish parents are going the extra mile toward trying to minimize that.

~Tracy

Very true and bears repeating!
Gender IS largely a social construct. I can't even count how many times I have heard parents say, "I did my best to raise her in a gender-neutral way, never dressed her in pink, bought her trucks... but it turns out she's a naturally girly girl who loves her dolls and dresses!"
It's admirable for parents to try and raise their children in a gender-neutral way, resisting stereotypes... but why, when it doesn't "work," do so many parents conclude that it's because gender is innate, instead of taking into account the strong influence of society??

Children receive messages about gender NOT JUST from their parents, but from:
- other relatives
- family friends
- peers
- media (TV, radio, movies, Internet, magazines, books, newspapers, catalogs, inserts in the mail, ads, billboards)
- strangers out in public
- school
- daycare
- toys

It is nearly impossible to shield your children from ALL OF THAT. So many of the messages we receive about gender are messages we receive subconsciously. It is very difficult to raise a child to be a nonconformist in terms of gender, when the entire rest of society is working against you. It's almost _useless_ to try to, for instance, raise a son who is "allowed to do and be whatever feels natural to him," by offering him both pants and dresses, dolls and trucks, because attempting to remain neutral unfortunately means reinforcing the status quo. It's like being in a river with a strong current going in one direction, and trying to tell your child s/he can "swim in whichever direction s/he naturally wants to swim in." S/he is going to automatically ("naturally") move in the direction of the current unless you _actively teach her to swim against it_.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
give me an example


Ok. I called my friend and told her the story. Her response?

"Well why wouldn't they want to tell what it is?"

And then I asked her to tell her seven year old son who said "Well it's gotta be somethin'. I think it's a boy."

As I was typing this, I thought of another. When a baby is born and the sex is a surprise, the first words are "It's a girl!" And what's "it"? The baby!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Ok. I called my friend and told her the story. Her response?

"Well why wouldn't they want to tell what it is?"

And then I asked her to tell her seven year old son who said "Well it's gotta be somethin'. I think it's a boy."

As I was typing this, I thought of another. When a baby is born and the sex is a surprise, the first words are "It's a girl!" And what's "it"? The baby!


So you told her the WHOLE story including the part where they say they child's name and your friend still wanted to call Pop an "it"? Why not just use pop's name? and in that case, I could call and say "I just had a baby" and someone could say "what is it?" so what? how is that exclusive to Pop?

"When a baby is born and the sex is a surprise, the first words are "It's a girl!" And what's "it"? The baby!"

no everyone uses that phrase. I never heard it after I had my kids. They just put the baby on my belly.

These people aren't denying their child has certain body parts, they just want to let the child decide when to share the info on what parts those are.

I am still waiting for an example where a person would HAVE to call Pop an "it" that they wouldn't have to call any other child an "it" in the same situation even if there parents weren't hiding the gender. They could just call Pop "pop" they could say "What their name" or "whats the kid's name"

just because some people want to be obnoxiously rude and call Pop and "it" doesn't mean they have to. That's their choice, could be done to ANY child in the same situations (minus the hidden gender) and is a poor reflection of that person and not the parents who are merely encouraging people to treat Pop for who they are instead of for what gender society assigns to their body parts.

Calling Pop and "it" is simply unnecessary. It's a choice one makes that they do not have to. If Pop is called "it" more then other children its because of that person's ignorance, not the short comings of Pop's parents.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Socio-political agenda: Is what these parents doing any worse than NOT vaccinating your child? Assuming Pop's parents are utterly sincere in their belief that they are doing the right thing for Pop, how is this any different from all of us MDC moms who homeschool our kids? Have homebirths? Don't have a TV? They could easily admonish the nay-sayers for cruelly revealing the sex of their babies to the public at large.

Off to read the rest.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

1- We were working on the premise that the childs name wasn't known. And I doubt that her son was being intentionally rude.

2- I never said that this was exclusive to that kid

3-"It's a boy/girl" is pretty common.

4- No one is denying that the child has genitals. ETA- oops. i misread something as "denying the child certain body parts" my mistake.

5-I offered an example. Two of them.

6-I never said anything of the parents shortcomings. I said that I think that the whole idea is silly.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Why tell your kid's gender when you can make them a worldwide human social experiment? I mean...how important is a penis or vagina, _really_, when book deals can be made?

Way to subvert the dominant paradigm.

Nothing says child advocate more than inviting the world to speculate endlessly on your child's genitals, talking to the press about it, conducting human, non-consensual social experiments, and most likely, eventually profiting (financially) from all of it


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Why tell your kid's gender when you can make them a worldwide human social experiment? I mean...how important is a penis or vagina, _really_, when book deals can be made?

Way to subvert the dominant paradigm.

Nothing says child advocate more than inviting the world to speculate endlessly on your child's genitals, talking to the press about it, conducting human, non-consensual social experiments, and most likely, eventually profiting (financially) from all of it









Do you know for a fact they are the ones who called the paper and put their kids in the public eye?

Can you explain why not do it sooner then?

I really don't think they did this because the want book deals and what not.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Do you know for a fact they are the ones who called the paper and put their kids in the public eye?


I know I'm not who you asked, but if they didn't want the attention, regardless of who called the paper, a simple "this is what works for our family" or even simpler "no comment" would've worked.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I know I'm not who you asked, but if they didn't want the attention, regardless of who called the paper, a simple "this is what works for our family" or even simpler "no comment" would've worked.

Not nessicarily. The paper could have still printed a story, simply stating the parents had no comment or that they said it works for our family.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Why tell your kid's gender when you can make them a worldwide human social experiment? I mean...how important is a penis or vagina, _really_, when book deals can be made?

Way to subvert the dominant paradigm.

Nothing says child advocate more than inviting the world to speculate endlessly on your child's genitals, talking to the press about it, conducting human, non-consensual social experiments, and most likely, eventually profiting (financially) from all of it


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I wish they could be more free to be authentically who they are without constant questioning.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
As I was typing this, I thought of another. When a baby is born and the sex is a surprise, the first words are "It's a girl!" And what's "it"? The baby!

Actually, dh said "here's Lina, dear"


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I asked the same thing, and I'm quoting it so it will show up on this page twice so maybe someone will answer us









Because it's more important to make a fuss and thus 'prove' the point that the parents are doing it to create a fuss.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

1- We were working on the premise that the childs name wasn't known. And I doubt that her son was being intentionally rude.
(but so is every other child you haven't met yet - children we don't know their names are unknwon, its not always clear if they are boy or girl - so what's different about Pop's situation is only that you know there is something different about Pop's situation - and knowing that you can't know is what bothers you - it doesn't bother you with other kids because you could ask and be told - but these people are weird because if you ask they will just say "this is pop" but then you don't have to call Pop "it" because you have a name, and if you don't walk up to the child then its the same as every other child you haven't met yet - if you dont walk up you wont know. if you do walk up you either know or get the name.)

2- I never said that this was exclusive to that kid
(so then what was your point?)

3-"It's a boy/girl" is pretty common.
(have 3 kids, never heard tis statement other then in the movies.)

4- No one is denying that the child has genitals. ETA- oops. i misread something as "denying the child certain body parts" my mistake.
(exactly)

5-I offered an example. Two of them.
(but none of them applied solely to Pop - which you admit in #2)

6-I never said anything of the parents shortcomings. I said that I think that the whole idea is silly.
(you said the parents are going to create this child to be referred to as "it" more - but really it would be no more then any other child.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Because it's more important to make a fuss and thus 'prove' the point that the parents are doing it to create a fuss.

and isn't funny that there wouldn't be a fuss at all if people weren't so judgmental of these parents choice to let the child decide on their own? It's people's curiosity creating this. It just KILLS them that they aren't in on some kind of "secret" when to the parents it's like everything you need to know about my child you can know without knowing their genitalia.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
btw the appropriate word is "intersexed"

Hermaphrodite is absolutely an appropriate word as well. It is the conjoining of Hermes and Aphrodite. It may not feel as politically correct as intersexed, but I disagree that it is less appropriate.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

I've not read recent responses... but what keeps crossing my mind is:

Why not support realistic solutions vs. the band-aid theory? This kid WILL eventually become an adult and have to know its sex/gender. I think its a good idea to prepare kids for this.

This is whatever it is for "pop"'s parents... I won't judge them... but will say that if they are trying to bring about gender nonexistence/equality, etc. for their kid... first, it probably won't happen the way they think it will... and second, they could still do that very clearly, even if they told others the kid's sex from day 1... as many mamas have done successfully here, which I've read many times here on mdc. I don't think it takes any form of denial to help your kid know that they are gender-equal to the other gender or be unaffected by commercial gender-ized beliefs, it DOES take alot of dedication passion & some creativity & dedication. And the acceptance by the parents that we, as humans, are usually of two genders, male or female but sometimes mixed.

If there are parents who truly want the kid to live a non-gendered life... I'm not sure I even understand that enough to respond.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *number572* 
I've not read recent responses... but what keeps crossing my mind is:

Why not support realistic solutions vs. the band-aid theory? This kid WILL eventually become an adult and have to know its sex/gender. I think its a good idea to prepare kids for this.


but they have talked to Pop about genitalia. It's not like the kid is in the dark, I mean by this reasoning people should let others smoke around their kids because they will eventually become an adult and have to know about smoking and should be prepared for it


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
There are MANY differences between the male and female body, and very few of them are sexual organs.

I agree. Sometimes I think I'm old fashioned.. but I do think, by instinct there are certain roles each gender gravitates towards. Not all, but most.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but they have talked to Pop about genitalia. It's not like the kid is in the dark, I mean by this reasoning people should let others smoke around their kids because they will eventually become an adult and have to know about smoking and should be prepared for it









ok, Help me see another way thru this then... b'c in my heart, I am a rebel and freedom fighter, I'd love to see this theory thru, but feel it unfair to the child at hand. He's only 2, so none of us know how Pop's parents will choose to introduce gender or when, for that matter - one of "our" line of thinking can guess that it would be somewhere within the pre-pubescent yrs. I'd guess anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think alot can be taught by dealing with past societal issues during early childhood. I'm not a child psych, so I may be talking out of my ear, but something about hiding things has never sat right with me. Everyone is different tho... if this is what they want, I respect them as the parents and support them in full, even if I don't understand their thoughts yet - & I'm thankful that I'm reading such a progressive story... beats the heck out of opening a page to "parents decide that abuse is OK!!"


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

I think we all need to give kudos to these parents for excercising their rights in raising their kid the way they want! HUGE BEAUTIFUL STEP!!!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *number572* 
ok, Help me see another way thru this then... b'c in my heart, I am a rebel and freedom fighter, I'd love to see this theory thru, but feel it unfair to the child at hand. He's only 2, so none of us know how Pop's parents will choose to introduce gender or when, for that matter - one of "our" line of thinking can guess that it would be somewhere within the pre-pubescent yrs. I'd guess anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think alot can be taught by dealing with past societal issues during early childhood. I'm not a child psych, so I may be talking out of my ear, but something about hiding things has never sat right with me. Everyone is different tho... if this is what they want, I respect them as the parents and support them in full, even if I don't understand their thoughts yet - & I'm thankful that I'm reading such a progressive story... beats the heck out of opening a page to "parents decide that abuse is OK!!"

but who says they aren't doing that? they have already begun introducing body parts to the child. they CHILD will decide to introduce gender or when - the parents said it's POP's decision to make, not theirs. they aren't stopping Pop. Maybe Pop will tell the world when he is 3. who knows. we aren't waiting for what Pop's parents will do, we are waiting for what Pop will do. Pop's choice. Pop get's to decide whether or not their gender will be revealed - unlike my children who had me choose for them. Id be surprised if they weren't teaching Pop about societal issues through all of this.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

I've always felt you are born with a certain gender.. unless you are one of the unique people born with both. Your gender is classified BY your "parts". Ultimately, it's their child, and their decision. I just would never do it to my children. Everyone is different!


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but who says they aren't doing that? they have already begun introducing body parts to the child. they CHILD will decide to introduce gender or when - the parents said it's POP's decision to make, not theirs. they aren't stopping Pop. Maybe Pop will tell the world when he is 3. who knows. we aren't waiting for what Pop's parents will do, we are waiting for what Pop will do. Pop's choice. Pop get's to decide whether or not their gender will be revealed - unlike my children who had me choose for them. Id be surprised if they weren't teaching Pop about societal issues through all of this.


You are waiting for Pop's choices? Are you sure about that? Think about that & then think about what "pop" will want 25 yrs from today


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
give me an example.

I don't have strong feelings on this issue one way or the other, but because I happened to notice it earlier as I was browsing this thread, and because you're specifically asking for an example now, I can't help but point out that you used "it" earlier in the thread when talking about Pop.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but the child DOES have a say in the matter. the child gets to pick *its* clothes every morning if its "boys" clothes or "girls" clothes and they teach the child about anatomy and will allow the child to reveal their gender if/when they want to.


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## BellaClaudia (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellaClaudia* 
I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.

Except they aren't deciding for the child. Every other child is born and assigned either 'Boy' or 'Girl'. Pop isn't being assigned. Pop will be the one who decides in the end if Pop is a boy or a girl.


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## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

Oh man, this cracks me up because, really, do anyone's children really wear clothes enough of the time to make this work? I think my daughter is out of her clothes more often than she is in them...

but then again, I live in California where it is both sunny and liberal about such things...


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellaClaudia* 
I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.

I agree. For me and my beliefs at least, we are born girl or boy so the whole 'keeping it a secret' is just nonsense to me.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I don't have strong feelings on this issue one way or the other, but because I happened to notice it earlier as I was browsing this thread, and because you're specifically asking for an example now, I can't help but point out that you used "it" earlier in the thread when talking about Pop.









yes but I would do that even with my own children in that scenario.

"My children get to pick their clothes"
"My child gets to pick it's clothes"
"My cat sure loves it's cat toy" (my cat doesn't even have a name)

In the example you use, I reference Pop as Pop.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *number572* 
You are waiting for Pop's choices? Are you sure about that? Think about that & then think about what "pop" will want 25 yrs from today

I think Pop will want 2 parents who loved them no matter what, and I think thats what Pop will have.

There are plenty of things parents do that kids don't like 25 years later. Sometimes a parent vaccinates a child, and 25 years later they wish they had never been vaccinated. Sometimes a parent doesnt vaccinate, and 25 years later they wish they had.

The difference is the ability to take back or not. At least Pop can reveal their gender if they don't like the parents decision for it to be secret.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellaClaudia* 
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

That could be said for any parenting choice any parent makes. That could be said even to those of who do reveal which body parts are between our children's legs. maybe even more so. but anything you do as a parent you are deciding in that moment. In this case, they are NOT deciding. They are waiting. Waiting for Pop to decide. Who knows if YOUR child will share YOUR views in the future?


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think it is interesting. I admire their desire and commitment to allow their child to develop without being put in a box.

The article didn't answer all of the questions that I had though. I wish it would have had more comments from the parents about how they live.

I wonder if they totally avoid using gender specific pronouns for other people they encounter unless the person actually self-identifies to Pop "I'm a boy" or "I'm a woman"? Do they deny the use of all gender specific pronouns even if people do identify as a specific gender?
I wonder if they are teaching Pop not to refer to other people they encounter as she or he based on appearance or mannerisms? If they are only applying gender neutrality to Pop I wonder if that makes the child feel confused or odd... an outsider?
Do they refer to themselves as "your parent" rather than mother/father to avoid assigning gender to certain tasks or roles?

I do not think bringing up the case of a boy whose penis was cut off and raised as a girl was relevant or fair of the article's author. The parents in this case aren't cutting parts off and telling their child that he is a she.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 
The truth is that there (is evidence out there) that there ARE in fact several biological differences in males vs. females in all sort of ways. We are not born genderless just like we are not born race-less.

Biological differences between races _that have been scientifically determined_ have little to do with anything beyond hair, skin and eye color.

Quote:

Human beings have very low genetic variability. Probably the entire species is descended from a single family that lived about 200,000 years ago.
Most (85%) of our genetic variation is within populations rather than among them, even when different sequences of DNA (or proteins) are examined (Barbujani et al., 1997 ). *Statistical divisions of humanity based on different kinds of genetic data do not group people consistently into races* (Romualdi, 2002 ).
Many of the genetic distinctions among races are based on commonness versus rarity of certain alleles (forms of a gene), but the same alleles are usually found in all human populations. There are very few alleles (such as the one that causes Tay-Sachs disease) or genetic markers that are found only in one race, and those tend to be fairly rare within that race.
*Among the few genes that vary consistently between populations is the one believed to have the greatest effect on skin, hair, and eye color*: MC1R (Ranaa et al., 1999 ).
The greatest physical and genetic diversity among humans is among the people who live in Africa today (Relethford and Harpending, 1994 ).
This [differences between hair, skin and eye color] is relatively meaningless compared with the poignant biological differences between males and females.

Quote:

Claiming that women and men are naturally different can of course be controversial, as Larry Summers, former President of Harvard University, discovered. But a claim of natural sex differences is far less politically controversial than any similar claim about race, and it seems to many of us, such as Summers' apologist William Saletan, scientifically defensible too: "Sex is easily the biggest physical difference within a species. *Men and women, unlike blacks and whites, have different organs and body designs*."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 
This "movement" reminds of the same group of people who say things like "race doesn't matter" instead of embracing and celebrating both similarities and differences.

How about you rephrase "race doesn't matter" (and "gender doesn't matter") with "*regardless of inherent biological differences between humans, we should all be treated equally*." We should all have equal rights and opportunities regardless of race- the same goes for gender.

It seems to me that you are equivocating biological and socially constructed differences between races and genders: This is not going to get you a balanced view or accurate information. Start with the biological differences (and lack thereof), and _then_ move to cultural bias and social constructs.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

I think an important point to make is that they do hide the gender from pop's environment, not so from pop. Pop has body parts known to him/her which he/she can identify with as self' and being a certasin 'sexe'. Only pop will find out in his/her own time what gender she/he is. And will ask questions about this in the near future anyway ('what's this?' cfr. body parts). Probably will start asking questions about the way people (male and female) dress in her environment. Imo, the 'secret' is only there to other people to avoid them adressing the child in a gender specific way. I personally think it's great of the parenjt's to make a well-thought effort do create this neutral setting for their child. This is elf-determination for the child as when to discover and decide to reveal gender, and only later experience gender-specific treatment by environment but not immediately by birth. I do not think such a way will prevent pop from finding out his/her true 'innate' gender, since I believe part of gender is biologically and genetically determined, and a lot of what is attached to gender nowadays is culturally and artificially determined. I do not think it will be harmful for the child since gender won't be kept a secret from him/her.

Personally, I have always resented the gender-specific treatment of people in society, and it starts as early as they pop (pun not intended







) out at birth (or even before that...). And I have tried to at least stick to gender neutrality/non-comformity cfr. my young children to a certain extent, but I see that even in our family, due to societal norms, and cultural norms, and even due to my own 'accustomed' behaviours/habits/thinking/learned gender specific customs, it's been only succesful for a tiny tiny little bit. As in that pink is a colour for everyone, glitter can be liked by anyone, boys and girls ae free to enjoy any play they want, people of all genders are allowed to cry, rough play and sweetness can appear in both genders, hairstyle's gender specificness is only a societal norm not shared by everyone or every culture, and similar. I also try to make them be conscious about their own language when being judgingly genderspecific, and let us realise what we are saying, and if such is really true, by adjusting texts I'm reading when too gender 'specific' examples that are plain sexist, imo. Etc.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I've been thinking further on this: Can you imagine the pressure on Pop whenever s/he decides to _reveal_ his/her sex to the world? Or the social ridicule that Pop will endure _because_ of his/her parents' wishes? I just could not do this to my child.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Now though, as a mother, and being 15 years older, I have to totally disagree. I think this is just distracting from real feminism. Androgyny is just not workable, or preferable for most people. We are biologically programmed to have a gender, and it's gratifying to satisfy our gender expectations. I don't see how hiding one child's gender really contributes to less domestic violence, or more family leave time, or equal pay for equal work, or any of the very real issues that exist and need to be addressed by feminism. But maybe they're past all that in Sweden?









:


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ernalala* 
I think an important point to make is that they do hide the gender from pop's environment, not so from pop. Pop has body parts known to him/her which he/she can identify with as self' and being a certasin 'sexe'. Only pop will find out in his/her own time what gender she/he is. And will ask questions about this in the near future anyway ('what's this?' cfr. body parts).

So gender isn't being kept a secret from him/her - but at two and a half is this child being forced to keep it a secret as well? It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

We really have no idea what girls/boys would naturally gravitate towards, no clue at all. We have never been allowed to just be who we are w/o the trappings of gender stereotypes many that seem obviously arbitrary.
We have absolutely no concept of how many children would easily and naturally fall into their assigned gender role. I do know it's complete HELL for many who don't fit so easily. And many more don't even get they aren't being allowed to truly be themselves. The brainwashing of gender roles starts well from the start.
Now I wish I could _never_ do that to my children unfortunately that's impossible.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
So gender isn't being kept a secret from him/her - but at two and a half is this child being forced to keep it a secret as well? It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...

Yeah, I wonder this, too. I don't know when it starts but I know at 3 or so my son (who I have mentioned before has long hair) would meet other kids and would sometimes be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

Unless they completely shield this child from other children, it's going to come up - and what is he/she supposed to say, it's a secret? Which is just going to rile a bunch of kids up and depending on the age it happens at - well some of them might just try to check it out for themselves, which could be pretty traumatic.

Of course grown-ups will ask, too, and while they won't go so far (hopefully) as to strip the child to check... I can see lots of awkward "OK well isn't that interesting! *nice to meet you I'm going to move to the other side of the room now*" responses.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
just because some people want to be obnoxiously rude and call Pop and "it" doesn't mean they have to. That's their choice, could be done to ANY child in the same situations (minus the hidden gender) and is a poor reflection of that person and not the parents who are merely encouraging people to treat Pop for who they are instead of for what gender society assigns to their body parts.

Calling Pop and "it" is simply unnecessary. It's a choice one makes that they do not have to. If Pop is called "it" more then other children its because of that person's ignorance, not the short comings of Pop's parents.

"It" is the gender neutral pronoun. It's the right pronoun to use for an ungendered person. It's not rude, it's grammar.

Quote:

We really have no idea what girls/boys would naturally gravitate towards, no clue at all. We have never been allowed to just be who we are w/o the trappings of gender stereotypes many that seem obviously arbitrary.
This may have been true 20 years ago, but what modern, thoughtful parent doesn't at least toy with the idea that boys and girls are the same, and give their one year old child a doll and a train, and possibly excessively push the non-traditional toy more. I know I did, even though I know that those stereotypes are mostly correct because of biology, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't imposing things on my children.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Our world is so far from being gender neutral or just open minded about gender. And giving a boy a doll and a girl a train is not even close to being gender neutral. Just because more parents today will _allow_ their sons a dolls does not mean gender stereotypes aren't being pushed. I just love how giving a boy a doll and then he doesn't play with it much means gender stereotypes are all true. That might work (well for that particular boy) if gender roles/stereotypes aren't forced and reinforced daily. It's a very cemented aspect of our culture and it is every where right in your face and also more subtle, you really can't escape it.

The fact these modern and progressive parents _know_ the gender stereotypes are true but feel they must at least offer a choice to their children anyway is very telling (and their children know it too).


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

Are there any societies throughout all of history that don't distiguish between gender? Somehow I don't see this as a "modern evil" but rather the way people/societies are made/meant to be . . .

As far as this specific case goes, I agree with those who think it's distasteful for parents to use their kids for their own political/social purposes. Blech.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Our world is so far from being gender neutral or just open minded about gender. And giving a boy a doll and a girl a train is not even close to being gender neutral. Just because more parents today will _allow_ their sons a dolls does not mean gender stereotypes aren't being pushed. I just love how giving a boy a doll and then he doesn't play with it much means gender stereotypes are all true. That might work (well for that particular boy) if gender roles/stereotypes aren't forced and reinforced daily. It's a very cemented aspect of our culture and it is every where right in your face and also more subtle, you really can't escape it.

Absolutely, and again, we return to research that indicates that as soon as gender has been determined, there are subtle differences in how we parent our children (how much we talk to our kids, whether we rub or pat them, etc.).


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## luckygreen713 (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't see what the big deal is. Yeah, it's different, and I guess that makes it weird to so many people. But as long as Pop isn't instructed to answer "its a secret" when asked if a boy or girl, I don't see how it's a problem. Pop will eventually be exposed to gender sterotyping, when he or she is ready to identify with a particular gender. Gender doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to a 2yo.
To me, people are people. People should do what makes them happy, whatever that may be. No one should feel like they have to avoid something that they like because they have the "wrong" sexual organ, skin color, etc. I wish there were no constraints forced upon people by society. That's just my opinion, so what Pop's parents are doing really isn't weird to me. I think it's cool.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eloise24* 
Are there any societies throughout all of history that don't distiguish between gender? Somehow I don't see this as a "modern evil" but rather the way people/societies are made/meant to be . . .

As far as this specific case goes, I agree with those who think it's distasteful for parents to use their kids for their own political/social purposes. Blech.

I agree! I think that gender roles can be utilitarian and helpful (you hunt, I gather) as well as limiting (hunting is superior to gathering). I agree that attitudes toward gender can be problematic but, looking from the broader perspective of history, as a whole, we've made huge strides toward sloffing off these connotations. Are we anywhere near perfection? Of course not, but we're closer than we were. I also don't think that androgyny is perfection but rather acceptance of people living out their lives in ways that are emotionally beneficial to them, and acceptance that gender can have a myriad ways of expressing itself within individuals, some of which are superior in some circumstances, some of which are superior in other circumstances, and some of which are neutral.

In this particular case, as I've stated in a pp, my main concern is for the child here. I just can't imagine how awkward and psychologically difficult it will be when the child becomes aware of this "experiment" of his/her parents. When s/he finally makes known to the world whether s/he is a boy or girl . . . well, that is just going to be emotionally difficult, I would think. I can just hear the taunts, the ridicule, the raised eyebrows, the murmurs of, "Well, we've been wondering what you were all this time . . ." That's just a lot of baggage to add onto the baggage of just everyday living. I guess I wouldn't mind it if the parents themselves decided to keep their own genders secret from the world (even though from my own perspective I would find that silly), but to impose this upon a child is manipulation for a political purpose. As parents we must all make decisions for our children, but this one is far more encompassing than whether or not to breastfeed or vaccinate, and one that I think will cause much greater damage.


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## anyalily (Oct 23, 2008)

The first thing asked when a baby is born is "is it a boy or a girl" and then we make judgments based on that. "Oh, they got their girl." or "oh, boys are harder!"... I do it myself. It is ingrained!

Our midwives encouraged us to look and see the sex of our baby when she was born and said that people often forget to look while they are falling in love with him/her. It is often a grandparent who says, "well, what is it?"

I wonder how we would be if it didn't matter what was in our pants? I think this couple is right on.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

I did not read through all 8 pages of discussion. But this reminds me of the Story of Baby X...if anyone has read that.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
yes but I would do that even with my own children in that scenario.

"My children get to pick their clothes"
*"My child gets to pick it's clothes"*
"My cat sure loves it's cat toy" (my cat doesn't even have a name)

In the example you use, I reference Pop as Pop.









Really? I don't think so, I think almost everyone would say "his" or "her." But, okay...

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you over this. I think for most people the "it" thing is not ill-intended, it's just a function of our language's limitations and since there's no universally accepted, nonoffensive substitute, it just happens sometimes that people use "it" to reference a person.

But your above example of "My child gets to pick it's clothes" would sound really weird to my ear if I heard you say that about your kid IRL, so maybe the people who annoy you by saying "it" just have similar personal grammar usage to yourself, and don't mean anything by it, and would even say it about their own kids.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I'm really surprised at the number of people here who are so vehemently against what Pop's parents are doing.

They might have a socio/political agenda, but so what? They are obviously doing what they think is best for their child, too. Wouldn't you do the same for your child??

Seriously, *how is this any different from what many of you

you here at MDC

you moms right here in this thread

do TO your children?*

If you choose not to vaccinate your child you have an agenda. If you choose to birth your child at home, unassisted by medical practitioners you have an agenda, and many people think it's wrong and that you are unneccessarily risking your child's life and your own life. If you choose to educate your child at home you have an agenda, and many people think you're doing your children a disservice by hiding them away from 'the real world', and your child is going to be odd, unsocialized and is going to resent you when they become adults. If you choose to breastfeed your child, you have an agenda. For pity's sake, if you choose to use cloth diapers *you have an agenda.*

How in the world is this any different from not vaccinating your child? Not vaccinating your child has risk, you are risking your child's very life, and frankly you are risking the lives of everyone around you. This is a far more serious issue than how this child's gender perception will affect him or her.

How in the world is this different and more harmful than not circumcising your children?

Is what Pop's parents doing any worse than not being married to the parent of your child?

How many of you claim have gotten a hard time from inlaws, friends and co-workers for your Natural Family Living choices?

Truly, this thread astounds me.

I misunderstood, _Pop is not the child's real name but is the name used in the interview with the child's parents._ Cute name, though.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...

My 2.5 year old never talks about her gender. But when meeting people she say, 'Hi, my name's Fia, what's your name? I love you!'

She certainly knows she's a girl, she doesn't seem to find that to be the most important thing to discuss. Pop certainly knows what his/her gender is, it's just not advertised to appease the desires of strangers.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

While I agree with the parents intention I would think the execution of their plan on their own child would actually put way more emphasis on gender than most 2 year olds would ever experience and I am not sure if that is healthy either.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Really? I don't think so, I think almost everyone would say "his" or "her." But, okay...

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you over this. I think for most people the "it" thing is not ill-intended, it's just a function of our language's limitations and since there's no universally accepted, nonoffensive substitute, it just happens sometimes that people use "it" to reference a person.

But your above example of "My child gets to pick it's clothes" would sound really weird to my ear if I heard you say that about your kid IRL, so maybe the people who annoy you by saying "it" just have similar personal grammar usage to yourself, and don't mean anything by it, and would even say it about their own kids.

really, it just depends on who I am talking to









the whole point was someone is saying this kid is going to be called "it" more and that is detrimental for the parent to put the child in that situation - and the reality is, any child whose gender is so far unknown could be called it or they. And if the person walks up to ask, they can just say "This is Pop." as they do. In which case, gender is no longer necessary to refer to them.

And to the poster who said they shouldn't make Pop say its a secret - its been pointed out several times that as it states in the article, Pop can share gender if they want, when they want, and is being taught about both male and female anatomy and physical differences between the bodies. It's not like the child is being sheltered from the bodily differences between man and woman. Pop is just being treated as Pop instead of as boy or girl.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
My 2.5 year old never talks about her gender. But when meeting people she say, 'Hi, my name's Fia, what's your name? I love you!'

She certainly knows she's a girl, she doesn't seem to find that to be the most important thing to discuss. Pop certainly knows what his/her gender is, it's just not advertised to appease the desires of strangers.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

I'm really surprised at the number of people here who are so vehemently against what Pop's parents are doing.
I haven't seen this vehemence of which you speak. I personally said that the whole thing doesn't sit quite right with me, for reasons I can't pinpoint exactly. I don't think that's vehement, though.....

And just because we're all MDC moms, doesn't mean we have to feel exactly the same way on the same issues. Does it??


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## caiesmommy (Feb 26, 2007)

I think the article is great!

Conversation w ds

Me-Are you a boy?
Caie-No
Me-Are you a girl?
Caie-No
Me-Are you Caie?
Caie-No
Me-What are you?
Caie-Me...not sure

I LOVE an almost three year old's perspective!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuxPerpetua* 
I just can't imagine how awkward and psychologically difficult it will be when the child becomes aware of this "experiment" of his/her parents. When s/he finally makes known to the world whether s/he is a boy or girl . . . well, that is just going to be emotionally difficult, I would think. I can just hear the taunts, the ridicule, the raised eyebrows, the murmurs of, "Well, we've been wondering what you were all this time . . ."

If that happened, it isn't the family that's







:-up

Seriously, it's not like Pop'll be 35 and holding a press conference to proclaim their gender. The denouement will be more likely to be between age 3 and 6 and will consist of something as exciting as announcing "I'm a ___! Mommy is a girl! Daddy is a boy! We have a boy kitty. We have a girl doggy. I like icecream." to a store clerk. And then Pop's parents'll start using pronouns to refer to their child instead of always saying "Pop" when speaking in the third person.

You know what Pop's playgroup friends think of the whole thing? "Hey, Pop is wearing a dress today. It's blue!"


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anyalily* 

I wonder how we would be if it didn't matter what was in our pants? I think this couple is right on.









It's not just in your pants, it's in your brain structure and chemistry, that's the point.

Quote:

I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.
I think they'll be fine so long as they forget their gender was this big shameful thing to be scared of. Gender identity is inborn, it'll be feminine or masculine or neither, depending what its brain chemistry tells it it is.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:

I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.
You see here's the thing... All the physical differences in the world doesn't change the facts that 1) People treat boys different from girls and 2) One's physical gender is seperate from ones psychological gender.

There are people all around the world who are being thrust into a "gender" based on what they physically have. "He has a penis so he's a guy" "She has vulva so she's a girl". They are treated like their physical gender, assigned behaviours and likes and dislikes based on their gender. These people have difficulties because of it. Because society cannot accept the fact that boy's don't _need_ to identify with the male gender and girls don't _need_ to identify with the female gender.

Pop is, for the time being, not going to have the issue of people assuming Pop is going to identify with male or females. Pop will identify with the gender they are most comfortable identifying with. Without pressure from the outside. I know one person who would have given _anything_ to beable to grow up with that freedom because her physical self tells her to identify with one gender and her emotional and psychological self tells her to identify with the other gender.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
You see here's the thing... All the physical differences in the world doesn't change the facts that 1) People treat boys different from girls and 2) One's physical gender is seperate from ones psychological gender.

There are people all around the world who are being thrust into a "gender" based on what they physically have. "He has a penis so he's a guy" "She has vulva so she's a girl". They are treated like their physical gender, assigned behaviours and likes and dislikes based on their gender. These people have difficulties because of it. Because society cannot accept the fact that boy's don't _need_ to identify with the male gender and girls don't _need_ to identify with the female gender.

Pop is, for the time being, not going to have the issue of people assuming Pop is going to identify with male or females. Pop will identify with the gender they are most comfortable identifying with. Without pressure from the outside.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I think this is pretty cool. I don't see it as damaging. It's not like they're keeping it from the child - just letting them decide when to disclose said information.

I remember when I was in 4th grade, I got my hair cut at a barber's. And the cut was like one would "typically" get for a boy. We had a substitute teacher one day, and I was wearing jeans/tennis shoes/t-shirt. We were lining up to go to lunch, and she had me go to the boys line. I remember thinking that was pretty neat - that she couldn't tell my gender at all, and I could intermingle.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I think this is pretty cool. I don't see it as damaging. It's not like they're keeping it from the child - just letting them decide when to disclose said information.

I remember when I was in 4th grade, I got my hair cut at a barber's. And the cut was like one would "typically" get for a boy. We had a substitute teacher one day, and I was wearing jeans/tennis shoes/t-shirt. We were lining up to go to lunch, and she had me go to the boys line. I remember thinking that was pretty neat - that she couldn't tell my gender at all, and I could intermingle.

See the story you told exhibits the post I made above. That there is a "boy" line and "girl" line.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RunnerDuck* 
Yeah, I wonder this, too. I don't know when it starts but I know at 3 or so my son (who I have mentioned before has long hair) would meet other kids and would sometimes be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

What I'd have a problem with is if they're forcing the child to keep it a secret as well...that's just messed. How do you keep that up without making the kid feel weird about it?

My DD at 2 1/2 can identify girls & boys and addresses strangers as such. I mean sure she's learned it from us (the differences) but I really don't think I've harmed her in any way. There are lots of gender specific things I've left out and she finds her way to them anyway (princesses, jewellery etc).


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
She certainly knows she's a girl, she doesn't seem to find that to be the most important thing to discuss. Pop certainly knows what his/her gender is, it's just not advertised to appease the desires of strangers.

Neither does mine think it's the most important thing to discuss, but she is aware of it. Mostly she says "Hi girl/boy, want to play with me?"

And how do we know that Pop certainly knows?


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
See the story you told exhibits the post I made above. That there is a "boy" line and "girl" line.

True. I like how you explained it, btw.

I actually think it would be pretty cool if we could all just keep our genders to ourselves until puberty (where, mostly, the visible changes occur). I know when I was in school, I thought it was pretty constricting to divide everything into boys/girls. If I spoke with a boy or was close friends with a boy, classmates assumed I "liked" him. I was in 4th grade - I liked everyone! That one day when they mistook me for a boy - it was like feeling freedom. I deliberately tried to dress like a boy each time we had a substitute from that day on!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
True. I like how you explained it, btw.

I actually think it would be pretty cool if we could all just keep our genders to ourselves until puberty (where, mostly, the visible changes occur). I know when I was in school, I thought it was pretty constricting to divide everything into boys/girls. If I spoke with a boy or was close friends with a boy, classmates assumed I "liked" him. I was in 4th grade - I liked everyone! That one day when they mistook me for a boy - it was like feeling freedom. I deliberately tried to dress like a boy each time we had a substitute from that day on!

Babymomma did the same sort of thing for the longest time. Though she didn't limit it to substsitute teachers. In her high school grad picture she looks like a boy. Admittedly it got pretty much impossible for her to hide the evidence of her womanhood and she's been trying to find other ways to do it.

And for no other reason then the same freedom to mingle.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I remember an essay like that from some feminist theory class I took. "Baby X" or something like that. When I read it, I remember being totally inspired and thinking it was a great idea.

A while back the real baby X made himself public and said most of the reports were extreemly inaccurate. He never felt right being raised as a girl, and chose to return to being a male when he found out what happened (His penis had been irrepairably damaged during a circumcision.) A couple of years back he commited suicide. It is a very sad story.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
My initial thought was that the child might have been born with a form of hermaphroditism (sp?) and perhaps they are trying to let the child determine her/his own sex.









My initial thought was similar- Don't they know that it is now the standard recommendation to raise hermaphroditic children in one or another gender and let them change it later if you turned out to be mistaken, because hermaphroditic people raised in the no-telling / no-gender way found it too traumatic?

I myself am wondering about Swedish. Do they have gender in their pronouns? It would be hard to go without the third-person singular, and NO, "it" is not an appropriate personal pronoun for a human being, in my opinion. It ends up classing the person with inanimate objects and insects and birds and so on.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
You see here's the thing... All the physical differences in the world doesn't change the facts that 1) People treat boys different from girls and 2) One's physical gender is seperate from ones psychological gender.

There are people all around the world who are being thrust into a "gender" based on what they physically have. "He has a penis so he's a guy" "She has vulva so she's a girl". They are treated like their physical gender, assigned behaviours and likes and dislikes based on their gender. These people have difficulties because of it. Because society cannot accept the fact that boy's don't _need_ to identify with the male gender and girls don't _need_ to identify with the female gender.

Pop is, for the time being, not going to have the issue of people assuming Pop is going to identify with male or females. Pop will identify with the gender they are most comfortable identifying with. Without pressure from the outside. I know one person who would have given _anything_ to beable to grow up with that freedom because her physical self tells her to identify with one gender and her emotional and psychological self tells her to identify with the other gender.

That is true and in theory I would love for this to be the way it is going to work out, but in reality, Pop is going to spend a LOT of time listening to mom and dad explain this or have people use different-gendered pronouns based on false assumptions, and also have a hard time if s/he can't explain his/her gender at the playground.

It WOULD be nice if it were the norm to treat children equally or not to reveal their genders until puberty but, that not being the case, I think it's unfair to the child to have it be an experiment of sorts, unless you're on some kind of commune or whatnot, in which case, cool.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
A while back the real baby X made himself public and said most of the reports were extreemly inaccurate. He never felt right being raised as a girl, and chose to return to being a male when he found out what happened (His penis had been irrepairably damaged during a circumcision.) A couple of years back he commited suicide. It is a very sad story.

Fuamami was talking about something completely different - although I know the "story" of which you speak.

I believe Fuamami was refferring to a short Fiction story called "X: A Fabulous Child's Story" by Lois Gould. It was written in 1972. Here is a link if anyone would like to read it - http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1850

I wonder if the parent's of Pop didn't read this story themselves?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
Neither does mine think it's the most important thing to discuss, but she is aware of it. Mostly she says "Hi girl/boy, want to play with me?"

And how do we know that Pop certainly knows?

Because in the articles the parents said that it'll stop being a secret when Pop decides to tell people. Pop can't tell people if Pop doesn't know. Ergo, Pop knows.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Wow. Some people obviously did not even read the article because they keep saying Pop is forced to keep a secret, when thats not true.

POP IS NOT FORCED TO KEEP THEIR GENDER A SECRET!
"As for Pop, they say they will only reveal the child's sex when Pop thinks it's time. "

POP KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL:
"Although Pop knows that there are physical differences between a boy and a girl..."


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

when they say reveal the sex - they don't mean to Pop, who already know, they mean to the rest of the world - who its not their business anyway if Pop doesn't want them to know.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 

POP IS NOT FORCED TO KEEP THEIR GENDER A SECRET!
"As for Pop, they say they will only reveal the child's sex when Pop thinks it's time. "

POP KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BOY AND GIRL:
"Although Pop knows that there are physical differences between a boy and a girl..."

Glad you pointed these things out. It does indeed seem like those who are outraged are outraged because the parents are keeping the child's sex from the child... when that's not the case at all.

Because that is not the case, I don't understand why this is an issue with people. All the parents are doing is bypassing the social construct of gender until their child is ready to declare it, rather than declaring it for their child and forcing him/her into a social construct. I think this is a great idea.

It kills me when people (namely my side of the family) designate activities, entertainment, etc. for males or females. E.g. last night my son wanted to watch the movie The Nutcracker, and my dad frowned and said, "That's a girl movie." DS was examining the underside of a chair, and my grandmother said, "Trying to figure out how it works? Just like a boy."








These are the social constructs of gender that I wish I could avoid for my son.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Because in the articles the parents said that it'll stop being a secret when Pop decides to tell people. Pop can't tell people if Pop doesn't know. Ergo, Pop knows.

I'm not saying I think for sure the child doesn't know... but saying "the child will decide when it is time" doesn't neccassarily mean the child has any clue right now. This could be a roundabout way of skirting the fact that the child DOESN'T know.

Just like I can say to someone in all honesty, "My girls will decide what birth control to use when the time is right" - doesn't mean that I have actually sat down with them and discusses the pros and cons of the diaphram vs. the pill vs. the IUD. They don't have any clue right now what birth control even is. (They're 15 months)

eta - admittedly it's kind of a weird concept to think whether he/she knows or doesn't know since at that age what CAN you know besides boys have penises and girls have vaginas. My experience has really been that at that age boys and girls play with boys or girls, they're treated pretty equally, they like similar things...

I was a psych major in college and we had to do research projects in child development, my group looks at play differences between girls and boys - we theorized girls would prefer quiet/thinking toys and boys would prefer louder/action toys. Then we worked with 20 kids or something and we found NO DIFFERENCES but for some reason felt we weren't allowed to say our theory wasn't true (I think we had a really weird prof for that class) and so we kind of had to manipulate the date to prove our point... but really, we found nothing.

I feel like at 5 my son is developing a preference to play with boys over girls but he will still play with both and I don't see much difference in his play when he's playing - it's more to do with who he is playing with than what sex they are. I don't know if that all makes sense...

I think what I am getting at is, this kid is assumed to have a lot more knowledge and decision making power than is really possible at that age.

As he/she grows, anything that is seen in him/her that someone wants to say "Now this is the result of having no gender imposed early on!" will have to be teased apart from "Now this is the result of being part of some off psychological experiment early on!"


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

but the child DOES know right now.







:

My children have no preference to play with other children of the same gender (my oldest is 4) They just love to play, doesn't matter with who. The child being discussed here isn't part a psychological "experiment" its the product of parents who love their child (same as those who do reveal the gender of their children) and is doing what they think is best for the child.

The reality is, the child can reveal the gender if they want to, and won't be able to do so any later then any other child would be able to express that. The only difference is, the parent isn't going to do it FOR the child. Once you do it FOR the child you can't take it back. Not revealing it for the child doesn't prevent it from ever being revealed by the child.

I don't think its too much decision power for a child to decide to say "I'm a boy" or "I'm a girl" when they decide they want someone to know if they are a boy or girl. It's not different to me then letting them choose their clothes, friends, or toys. We are not talking about the child deciding which house to buy or what town to live in or where to file their taxes.

My son walks around and some days he says he is a girl and some days he says he is boy. The other day I asked him who was the best (thinking he would say daddy since daddy was just playing with him" and he said "Girls are the best!" I don't know where he gets this from, but it's definitely not "too much decision power" for a child to decide if they want to say "hey im a girl" or "hey im a boy" or "hi, my name is ______ and my favorite thing to do is color"

and no matter what choices a parent makes people an say things like this

"see, thats what happens when you don't raise children with a firm hand."
"see, thats what happens when you raise your children with violence"
"see, thats what happens when you vaccinate a child"
"see, thats what happens when you don't vaccinate a child"
"that right there is what happens when gay people raise children"
"that right these is what happens when parents don't teach tolerance to others sexual preferences"

the comment "the child is the result of some psychological experiment" can be said about ANY child. We are all doing what we think is best for our children, Pop's parents included. it's not an experiment, its called PARENTING and doing what you believe is best for your child. No matter what you do, you cannot avoid the critical eye of society. Everyone wants to look for where the parents went wrong.

Now I ask, if they raise a wonderful child, who feels free to be anyone and do anything regardless of his or her gender, then what do you think will be said?
some people will say its because of the parents and some people will say its despite the parents.

The bottom line is, what body parts you have between your legs is personal information. They aren't sharing that personal information on someone elses behalf. They are letting their child reveal that private information when they are ready.


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## Conifer (May 4, 2009)

I think that it is more damaging that there is a huge story about this and that they are using their child to promote the idea of ambiguity. If you want to raise your child without gender stereotypes...fine, but why make a huge announcement and spectacle of the whole thing.


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## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 

And how do we know that Pop certainly knows?

The original swedish article says this:

_Men, vill både Jonas och Nora understryka, Pops kön är ingen stor hemlighet. Det är inget som är tabubelagt eller hyschigt. Pop själv är fullt medveten om vad som finns mellan de egna benen och föräldrarna har pratat med Pop om att alla barn har antingen en snopp eller en snippa. Och utöver Pop, Jonas och Nora så vet även en handfull personer bland familj och vänner, som varit barnvakt och bytt blöja, vad Pop har för kön. Men Nora och Jonas säger själva aldrig han eller hon till eller om Pop, utan alltid Pop._

I'll try to translate/parafrase:

Both Nora and Jonas underlines that Pops gender is no big secret. It's not layered with taboo. Pop knows what's between Pops own legs and the parents have talked to Pop about the fact that all children have either a penis or a vagina. And aside from Pop, Nora, and Jonas, a handfull of people among family and friends, who have babysat and changed diapers, know Pops gender. But Nora and Jonas never says he or she to or about Pop, they always say Pop.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
and no matter what choices a parent makes people an say things like this

"see, thats what happens when you don't raise children with a firm hand."
"see, thats what happens when you raise your children with violence"
"see, thats what happens when you vaccinate a child"
"see, thats what happens when you don't vaccinate a child"
"that right there is what happens when gay people raise children"
"that right these is what happens when parents don't teach tolerance to others sexual preferences"

the comment "the child is the result of some psychological experiment" can be said about ANY child. We are all doing what we think is best for our children, Pop's parents included. *it's not an experiment, its called PARENTING and doing what you believe is best for your child.* No matter what you do, you cannot avoid the critical eye of society. Everyone wants to look for where the parents went wrong.

Now I ask, if they raise a wonderful child, who feels free to be anyone and do anything regardless of his or her gender, then what do you think will be said?
some people will say its because of the parents and some people will say its despite the parents.

The bottom line is, what body parts you have between your legs is personal information. They aren't sharing that personal information on someone elses behalf. They are letting their child reveal that private information when they are ready.
















Totally agreed.

I disagree that these parents are necessarily _using_ their child. Or, maybe they are, but so what? Or, how is this any different from what MANY of us do here at MDC? Is not vaccinating your child or not circumcising your child _using_ your child to promote a philosophy? Does it matter, if that's the right thing to do?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
That is true and in theory I would love for this to be the way it is going to work out, but in reality, Pop is going to spend a LOT of time listening to mom and dad explain this or have people use different-gendered pronouns based on false assumptions, and also have a hard time if s/he can't explain his/her gender at the playground.

It WOULD be nice if it were the norm to treat children equally or not to reveal their genders until puberty but, that not being the case, I think it's unfair to the child to have it be an experiment of sorts, unless you're on some kind of commune or whatnot, in which case, cool.

Pop will say if they are boy or girl when Pop wants people to know. Whether Pop is a boy or a girl is not something Pop's parents can tell by what genitalia they have. Pop is the only one who knows 100%. The parents only have physical form and social contruct to go on.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)




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## onelilguysmommy (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 

Why? Why is it so bad to allow people to know the gender of your child? I just don't see it as such a huge negative.

Because what is between a kids legs is somehow a huge deal to some when looking at and interacting.

Examples:
My 4yo has hair that is a couple of inches from his butt. The next door neighbor has a granddaughter near his age. Her mom said she could play with my son because she saw long hair and despite boyish clothes thought he was a girl. He said that he is a boy, and all of a sudden because he has some hanging stuff rather than a hole there, she looked shocked and shoved her daughter behind her back into the house then backed in herself staring at us and slammed the door.

He has red hair. He has had people come up and give him all kinds of complements on the color. Some people have then gotten a a disgusted look, and said "oh" and walked away upon finding out that he is a boy.

You don't see this as wrong and detrimental?

My dad won't leave me alone about cutting his hair. I have my reasons for not doing it, he is my kid, so leave me alone is my opinion on that.
He keeps saying people will think he is a girl. Exactly why is this a bad thing? A woman told me he might grow up and be emasculated. I asked why being masculine would be tied to having his hair cut off when in general men hve MORE hair than women?

Also I keep asking why it is anyones business what is between his legs.

Interestingly enough, they couldn't or wouldn't answer those.

I have thought about it some more and wanted to add this: When Iwas pregnant with all three, I literally had people ask me "What is it?" or "Is it a boy or girl?"
and when I answered "A baby!" with a smile, that was somehow a dig at them and I got yelled at for not telling people. Oh, or "Oh, come on, you have to tell me! what is it? I know you know, why won't you tell me?" :headbang: Why in the world does it matter to some random stranger what is hanging or not on a child that iis still INSIDE my freaking uterus?? Ugh.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama.Pajama* 
Glad you pointed these things out. It does indeed seem like those who are outraged are outraged because the parents are keeping the child's sex from the child... when that's not the case at all.

Because that is not the case, I don't understand why this is an issue with people. All the parents are doing is bypassing the social construct of gender until their child is ready to declare it, rather than declaring it for their child and forcing him/her into a social construct. I think this is a great idea.



Oh for goodness' sake, who said they were outraged? At best, people (including myself) have expressed a general mild dislike of the idea.

It think it's massive exaggeration to say that people are "outraged".

Like a dozen other topics on this board, it's something that I wouldn't do with my kid, but is ultimately none of my business if someone else does it.

So I said I didn't think it was the world's greatest idea. So what? Are we only allowed to post if we agree?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Oh for goodness' sake, who said they were outraged? At best, people (including myself) have expressed a general mild dislike of the idea.

It think it's massive exaggeration to say that people are "outraged".

Like a dozen other topics on this board, it's something that I wouldn't do with my kid, but is ultimately none of my business if someone else does it.

So I said I didn't think it was the world's greatest idea. So what? Are we only allowed to post if we agree?

People have said the child is going to have identity problems and be damaged by the actions of the parents.

Those are pretty strong sentiments from people who have a "general mild dislike of the idea".


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Because in the articles the parents said that it'll stop being a secret when Pop decides to tell people. Pop can't tell people if Pop doesn't know. Ergo, Pop knows.

Hmmm...interesting. Just because they're waiting until Pop tells, doesn't mean they're actually letting him/her in on the secret. It's quite possible that they just name the parts and leave the gender info out.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

My 4yo has hair that is a couple of inches from his butt. The next door neighbor has a granddaughter near his age. Her mom said she could play with my son because she saw long hair and despite boyish clothes thought he was a girl. He said that he is a boy, and all of a sudden because he has some hanging stuff rather than a hole there, she looked shocked and shoved her daughter behind her back into the house then backed in herself staring at us and slammed the door.

He has red hair. He has had people come up and give him all kinds of complements on the color. Some people have then gotten a a disgusted look, and said "oh" and walked away upon finding out that he is a boy.

You don't see this as wrong and detrimental?
Of _course_ I see those things as wrong and detrimental. But they illustrate to me the ignorance and stupidity of those particular people, not the necessity of hiding your 4-year-old's gender from everyone. (I mean, if you choose to, that's your decision. But it doesn't seem like a satisfactory or long-term solution.)


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
Of _course_ I see those things as wrong and detrimental. But they illustrate to me the ignorance and stupidity of those particular people, not the necessity of hiding your 4-year-old's gender from everyone. (I mean, if you choose to, that's your decision. But it doesn't seem like a satisfactory or long-term solution.)

I think the best solutions are the ones where you worry about changing yourself first, instead of trying to change others in the world around you







:


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onelilguysmommy* 
My 4yo has hair that is a couple of inches from his butt. The next door neighbor has a granddaughter near his age. Her mom said she could play with my son because she saw long hair and despite boyish clothes thought he was a girl. He said that he is a boy, and all of a sudden because he has some hanging stuff rather than a hole there, she looked shocked and shoved her daughter behind her back into the house then backed in herself staring at us and slammed the door.

It's possible that she would have let her DD play with a boy who had short hair. So the real problem was what is hanging from his head and not what is hanging between his legs.

So what really needs to be is that we learn to accept boys as they are and girls as they are, not hide what they are. Whether that is a boy with hair down to his ankles, or a girl with a mohawk.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onelilguysmommy* 
Examples:
My 4yo has hair that is a couple of inches from his butt. The next door neighbor has a granddaughter near his age. Her mom said she could play with my son because she saw long hair and despite boyish clothes thought he was a girl. He said that he is a boy, and all of a sudden because he has some hanging stuff rather than a hole there, she looked shocked and shoved her daughter behind her back into the house then backed in herself staring at us and slammed the door.

I wish I could says I am shocked that an adult would treat a child that way.. but unfortunately I am not. I have had people treat my kids that way because we are atheist. Oh you can't play with that girl! She doesn't believe in God!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AstridS* 
The original swedish article says this:

_Men, vill både Jonas och Nora understryka, Pops kön är ingen stor hemlighet. Det är inget som är tabubelagt eller hyschigt. Pop själv är fullt medveten om vad som finns mellan de egna benen och föräldrarna har pratat med Pop om att alla barn har antingen en snopp eller en snippa. Och utöver Pop, Jonas och Nora så vet även en handfull personer bland familj och vänner, som varit barnvakt och bytt blöja, vad Pop har för kön. Men Nora och Jonas säger själva aldrig han eller hon till eller om Pop, utan alltid Pop._

I'll try to translate/parafrase:

Both Nora and Jonas underlines that Pops gender is no big secret. It's not layered with taboo. Pop knows what's between Pops own legs and the parents have talked to Pop about the fact that all children have either a penis or a vagina. And aside from Pop, Nora, and Jonas, a handfull of people among family and friends, who have babysat and changed diapers, know Pops gender. But Nora and Jonas never says he or she to or about Pop, they always say Pop.

Thank you Astrid!

Honestly, I'm not getting the sense that they're hoping to let Pop choose Pop's own gender. I'm more getting the sense that they're wanting to help Pop decide what being a particular sex means for Pop without early outside influences.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

n/m


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

they can keep it a secreat for now but I have never met a three year old who can keep from spilling the beans.....

and between two and three I could rarely keep pants on my kids....

pop pop pop pop sorry... everyone has gotten to say it a million times.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
It's possible that she would have let her DD play with a boy who had short hair. So the real problem was what is hanging from his head and not what is hanging between his legs.

Even still, what this woman thinks should be hanging from his head comes from what is hanging between his legs.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Even still, what this woman thinks should be hanging from his head comes from what is hanging between his legs.

So right.

Just got another comment today about the long hair of my 3yo (boy). About needing to cut it, 'not cutting' would interfere with healthy (physical) development (lol, and what about girls' hair then cfr. gender 'appropriateness' and pgysical development?), would 'offer' (I honestly think the person in q was SERIOUS when saying the following) to cut ds's hair because he has a trimmer at home that would do the job...and it would never have been a poroblem if we would have started shaving ds's hewad from when he was a baby????? As a reaction to my saying that this is ds's hair style and I would cut SOME of it but since he is high needs I need to find a good moment for this anyway (it was a bit messy I admit, but ds is higly sensitive ands resists many things, such as touching/combing hair! I won't try/do any of this without initial consent!).Guy and grandson left playground pretty soon and I do think it was partly due to not wanting to be there when we were there after the unveiling conversation...

If ds instead would've been a long or short haired girl the hair(cutting) wouldn't have come up AT ALL.

This being just an example of what pop's parents are trying to avoid regarding pop's exposion to people's gender-biased ideas and attitudes from an early age, to have him/her learn from own experience rather then from people's opinions on gender and so-called gender-appropriateness and gender-specific treatment...


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
So what really needs to be is that we learn to accept boys as they are and girls as they are, not hide what they are. Whether that is a boy with hair down to his ankles, or a girl with a mohawk.









:


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

I really love the idea behind this. It would never have worked with DD. She has been quite the nudist since a very young age. All one would have to do is spend a few hours with us at the park and her sex would be known.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

I think this idea has been taken to an extreme but to each his own I guess. I don't see how it can help the child any. Not sure that it would hurt the child either, but how fair is it to do this to them? I'm not saying if it's a girl give it dolls or a boy and give it cars and trains, but I have a boy and a girl and treated them as such from an early age and they both liked both boy/girl toys when they were younger up until they were old enough to notice what others kids their same gender were doing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Eh, the article says they'll let the LO decide when to reveal gender. My guess is that it will either never matter or the year from age 3 to 4 will be filled with telling every single person on the street about his or her genitals. "I have a penis like Daddy and I'm a boy!!!" as the case may be.

I agree. The child will see their same sex parent and know what gender they are and learn from there.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I wish I could says I am shocked that an adult would treat a child that way.. but unfortunately I am not. I have had people treat my kids that way because we are atheist. Oh you can't play with that girl! She doesn't believe in God!

how sad.







But the difference in your situation is that you are raising your child to believe this way aren't you? And I'm just assuming that your DD didn't decide to not believe in God on her own at such a young age, and that you must be of the same belief? That isn't the same situation as what the OP is describing since she said that they aren't guiding their child in any one direction and are instead leaving it up to them to decide what to do.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
how sad.







But the difference in your situation is that you are raising your child to believe this way aren't you? And I'm just assuming that your DD didn't decide to not believe in God on her own at such a young age, and that you must be of the same belief? That isn't the same situation as what the OP is describing since she said that they aren't guiding their child in any one direction and are instead leaving it up to them to decide what to do.









i don't get this reasoning... is your argument that its okay for a parent to make a personal choice for a child but not okay to let a child make a personal decision for themselves? I hope I am misunderstanding.


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