# Any extended BFers feel there's a time to draw the line?



## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Ok. This is obviously an unpleasant discussion for some, so I want to make it clear that I am new here, and I don't know exactly how this works, but if the moderator and/or the members of this forum find this thread assaulting, I agree that it should be moved or made to vanish into the fairy-realm, what have you. Not because I dont think it's an important discussion, but what's the point of aggravating people? That wasn't my motive.
This forum is called "extended breast-feeding." If it had been labeled "support and advocacy" I never would have opened a debate.
I assumed this was a place where debate would be appropriate, but if I was wrong, I apologize and I won't be sad to see it go away. I'll leave that up to you all.

Many people had a problem with the title of the thread, which was "Is anyone OPPOSED to BFing older children?" They felt that it invited harassment from people who do not support BFing past infancy. I think the title gets right to the truth, but if it's too harsh and people are feeling like it's a slap in the face, than *poof* it's gone.
Again, I didn't come here to flame.
Something I don't know if I made clear: I was asking for the opinions of BFing-past-infancy moms, not outsiders (not that they'd be excluded). I didn't imagine in a million years that it would cause anybody to come in here and debate extending BFing in general... *and it hasn't!* No one here has had to defend their BFing practices, and that's the last thing I'd want anyone to have to do. From what I understand, BFing 7+ year-olds is extremely rare. I was wondering if there are moms out here who believe in CLW but also believe there is a point where the line should be drawn. If I went to Babycenter, I'm sure the vast majority would be appalled by BFing a school-aged child. I don't care about the vast majority. They're easily appalled and largely uneducated.
I was looking for the 2-cents of past-infancy BFers re: much older children, not formula feeding or infant-only BFers re: extended BFing.
I knew that many people were going to answer "If the world has a problem with a second-grader BFing, that's the world's problem..."
I am wondering how many of you who have little ones on the breast would say, "But isn't it then the child's problem? They become the target of ridicule, right or wrong."
I don't know what to call that other than opposition. Opposition is what it is. It isn't curiosity, it isn't puzzlement.
But most of the posts here have been in regards to the appropriateness of the thread itself, and it's right to exist here, and the way it was presented... and since that's counter-productive, I'm changing the title. If anybody doesn't feel that this is good enough, please post your feelings or tell the moderator, with my blessing, and appologies for hurting your feelings.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Watch out, you don't know what you're getting yourself into. FTR, I'm for true child led weaning. I'll be curiously following this thread, and I hope people can try to remain respectful.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

I hope it doesn't have to be volatile. I have zero experience with older (school-aged), breastfed children. I just wonder what others have to say...?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I have no problem with others doing it, and don't think it is damaging for a child at all. I would be one of the people passionately defending it.

However, while I am committed to child led weaning, I personally hope that ds completely weans in the next year or so (he is 3yo right now, and nurses just a bit here and there). I'm not excited about the idea of his nursing continuing on a whole lot longer, but don't know for sure what I will do if it does.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

I think that as long as it is the CHILD wanting to nurse, and not the mother insisting that the child nurse, there's no problem.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
Does anyone feel that this fosters over-dependency?
That it is setting children up for humiliation from their peers?
That some mothers may be co-dependent and unable to let go of their childrens infancy, for selfish reasons?

No. The opposite is true. Children who are allowed to wean themselves when they are ready are more independent than children who are forcibly weaned by their parent prematurely.
No. If their peers humiliate them, then it is their peers who need to change their behavior, not the breastfeeding mother.
No. Mothers who practice child-led weaning do so for the child's sake, not their own.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
there are already so many posts in support of super-extended bfing

It's not super-extended. It's not even extended. It's normal and natural.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
how many BFing moms feel that there is an age when it becomes more harmful than good?

Breastfeeding is never harmful. It is nothing but good.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
Do you think that there is ever a point when others (society in general, even the law) has the right to interfere?

Absolutely NOT!

If you think it's selfish to breastfeed beyond infancy, you might be in the wrong forum. This forum exists to support mothers who breastfeed beyond infancy.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sbf*

If you think it's selfish to breastfeed beyond infancy, you might be in the wrong forum. This forum exists to support mothers who breastfeed beyond infancy.

I'm not expressing an opinion.

edited to add:
It may be inappropriate to ask this question in this support forum... I wondered that before I posted it but I figured the thread is going to be dominated by those who believe in child-led weaning so ultimately any negativity will be diminished, KWIM?
Anyway, if it is out of line I'm sure it will be moved or 'disappeared'... I know it's a hot button but I don't think it has to be an unpleasant discussion.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
I'm not expressing an opinion..

Just because you don't claim the offensive assumptions doesn't make them any less offensive to those they target, KWIM?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
...I figured the thread is going to be dominated by those who believe in child-led weaning so ultimately any negativity will be diminished, KWIM?

Diminished or not, it's still negativity.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
I don't think it has to be an unpleasant discussion.

Honestly, I don't know how it couldn't be. People suggesting that mothers here are doing something unseemly (at best) or perverse (at worst) is pretty unpleasant at the core. I think we *all* know the objections to child-led weaning and/or nursing kids past the age of "acceptable." Why do we need to give them more air time in this forum? If people are really curious, ask. (And saying, "Don't you think you are fucking up your kid by nursing them too long?" with all it's pre-conceived notions and judgments, might not be the best conversation starter.







)


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

Does anyone feel that this fosters over-dependency?
Nope, our 13 year old who weaned all on his own just after 5 is quite independent, even age-appropriately obnoxious sometimes.

Quote:

That it is setting children up for humiliation from their peers?
Never happened while DS was "still" nursing, has yet to happen to DD. You have to realize that by these ages nursing is primarily a comfort activity done at bedtime or when waking up, maybe... DD is now sporatic about her nursing, but she knows she can ask, and she does.









Like SBF, I think that if peers are harassing another child, then the problem is with Those children and Their upbringing. I don't play "blame the victim."

Quote:

That some mothers may be co-dependent and unable to let go of their childrens infancy, for selfish reasons?
My kids have both seized their independence (age appropriate) when they're ready. Both run to the shy, but after getting familiar with a location and the people, they're out and socializing. DD makes a new friend every time we play somewhere where there are other kids around her age. I wasn'at nursed for more than a few months, and I'm the same way....hmmmm

Maybe we should allow that different children have different personalities and the nursing isn't going to Make them be one way or another?

ETA: I think that this is an important conversation to have. Given the way this country is about nursing, it's better to discuss it openly. IMO, and as we are teaching our children, and as DH told the Coming of Age kids at the final ceremony: *If it cannot be questioned, then there's something very wrong.*

This parenting decision can stand up to questioning.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

The philosaphy of LLL is to "gently educate" so here goes.

I've never been one to force my kids to stop doing something that brings them comfort (ie thumb sucking, security blanket, etc.) Unfortunately I became an extended nurser too late for my first three kids. However, with my fourth child I plan to use clw. She's 3 1/2 now, actually almost 4. I can't imagine what would be bad about her nursing. It brings her comfort when she's sad and/or tired, it's a good way to calm her down. I wonder if people look at it like it's bad b/c it involves breasts? If so, that's ridiculous. Our society has such a twisted view on sexuality and breasts and what they are really for. It's sad. We're producing sick, detached kids b/c many women won't even try nursing. I think that's very sad.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meiri*
I think that this is an important conversation to have. Given the way this country is about nursing, it's better to discuss it openly. IMO, and as we are teaching our children, and as DH told the Coming of Age kids at the final ceremony: *If it cannot be questioned, then there's something very wrong.*

This parenting decision can stand up to questioning.









I absolutely agree, Meiri. Nothing wrong with asking!

However, the title of the thread is "Anyone OPPOSED to BF'ing older children?" That is not the same as "Anyone CURIOUS about BF'ing older children?"

I just don't see the tone set up to "openly discuss" this issue. It seems to be an invitation for all the same old criticism and attacks to be trotted out and for mamas who come here for support to have to defend themselves once AGAIN.

Of course, maybe I'm just being an asshole, because it seems like some people are handling this just fine.














:


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

A lot of people out there have pre-conceived, arbitrary notions of when kids are "too old" to be doing a variety of things, be it using a pacifier or security blanket, thumb sucking, cosleeping, or waking up at night. These same people also have no problem giving out their unsolicited opinion, even if you're a total stranger. Notice that they never explain where those "too old" figures come from... To those people I say tough tacos - butt out. Human babies need nurturing and love, and trying to force "independence" creates insecurity and a feeling that the world is not a safe place. Every child is different, and parents need to be sensitive to their individual needs and work with them accordingly. If that means their child weans at 2 or at 7, so be it.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

as a nursing mother to a three-year-old, I find it really hard to believe that anyone could ever possibly nurse an unwilling child. At some point, they lose interest and just don't need it anymore. In my child's case, it's been an ongoing process, where she is gradually nursing less and less often. It really is as simple as that. You can walk around with your boob hanging out all you want, but if that kid don't want to nurse, she won't nurse. Just by asking these questions, you are making implications that mothers who choose child-led-weaning are somehow emotionally or mentally unstable.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Although i nursed all three of my kids, i have never bf a school age child (say 5 and up).

I wont criticize (because, who am i?), but have always been curious as to _why_ an older child (say 6 and up) would even want to breastfeed. I suppose nuturing and comfort, but kids do have coping mecahnisms, and it has always intrigued me as to why.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita*
I think that as long as it is the CHILD wanting to nurse, and not the mother insisting that the child nurse, there's no problem.


Have you ever tried to force a child to nurse?? :LOL It ain't gonna happen!

The only problem I have with CLW is the attitude that mainstream society has about it.


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## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

No, I don't object to older children nursing, but I probably would have before I was "educated". I agree that our culture has tried (pretty successfully) to turn breastfeeding into a sexual act. IT IS NOT! It is sad that so many children are not breastfed and/or not breastfed long enough to remember. If they were, there would be no concerns (noted by the OP) "about what other school age children think". I believe that meeting our children's needs will foster independence, not dependence. And I can't imagine that anyone could force a child to breastfeed! Again, this comes back to the twisted view our society holds of breast=sex (imo). Mothering is the only place I "advertise" that my 4 yo is "still" nursing (once a day, if that). Why? Because of the IMPLIED SUGGESTION (posed in question form) of the OP asking if there comes a time when society/the law should interfere. Dh has suggested that parents that "choose" not to breastfeed are being abusive. I understand that this is not politically correct, but think about it. In all the other mammals in the world, what do we say if the mother (cat, dog, lion, etc) doesn't nurse her young?


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

I think after the age of seven...the breastfeeding pair should be looked at. I'm not saying there's anything wrong...but I'd just want to make sure the child was not being manipulated or guilted into still breastfeeding.

I personally don't see how that could happen. I'm not sure many moms would WANT to keep breastfeeding that long. But that's just from me who is already kind of sick of BF a not-yet-even-three-year-old.

One thing that I've heard about that bothers me a little is this....I've heard mothers talk about nurse-ins and some mother will pop up and say "I'm going to bring my four-year-old and see what they THINK about THAT!" That to me seems like the mother is kind of using the child. I'm not saying they're forcing the child to breastfeed period, but aren't they kind of pushing them to breastfeed at that particular time? I feel it is using a child for a political agenda. Now with a younger child...or baby, it's different. They bf every ten minutes and it's likely they will want to breastfeed at the particular time of the nurse-in. Then again, I guess there are moms with older kids who breastfeed that frequently. If that's the case...then no problem with taking them to the nurse-in.

I think I have also seen cases here (or other places) where a mom complains with sadness that her older toddler or child is weaning. Then moms give suggestions on how to keep them breastfeeding. I think after the age of 2, a child should not be encouraged to continue. If they want to wean and a mother is pushing them to keep nursing...I think that's going AGAINST natural weaning. It's definitely not child-led.

I think with us hardcore militant breastfeeding folks...nursing an older child can seem like a badge of honor. It can be a slap in the face when your child decides to wean at 30 months.

Dina


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I am, in fact, curious about this. Mainly because DD weaned right about at her 2nd birthday, and DS at 2.5 is only nursing once a day (so I'm thinking, I'll be surprised if he goes much past 3), so I have no idea what it is practically like nursing a school-aged child. I suppose on some level it is just an extension of what I've already experienced, but on another you have a child that is reasoning at a much more advanced stage and perhaps can be reasoned through stopping nursing - do kids who nurse at 6,7,8 hear about weaning in a loving way from their moms, or are they just pressured? I suppose it is an individual thing (thinking aloud, sorry). I believe nursing is a relationship and should be stopped or continued depending on the dynamic, and if the dynamic is still appropriate at 6,7,8, fine by me. I personally have trouble wrapping my brain around a nursing child older than 5 (my youngest brother nursed to this age and he is the oldest nursling I have personal experience with), but that is my own personal limitation. That shouldn't have anything to do with the one-on-one personal nursing relationship between another mother and her child.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:

I absolutely agree.... Nothing wrong with asking!
However, the title of the thread is "Anyone OPPOSED to BF'ing older children?" That is not the same as "Anyone CURIOUS about BF'ing older children?"
I was thinking last night, "I gave that thread the worst possible title," but I didn't really know how else to put it because:
I wanted it in this forum, but it had to be clear that this wasn't your usual topic for this forum. If I put it in any other forum, there would probably be a dozen moms saying "OMG, I think that's so weird, those kids are going to need therapy," and all sorts of unilateral sentiments that wouldn't result in an actual discussion. So I wanted to put it here where women who actually know a thing or 2 about it can respond, but, I wanted it to be clear that it was a place where opposition could be aired.
And I use the word opposition b/c I think it's realistic. I don't know anyone who is unfamiliar w/ the practice of BFing older children who would walk past a second or third grader on the breast and think, "Hmm, I have questions and or concerns about this..."
What they feel is horror and revolt. So I don't think it's a strong title. In fact, it's probably extremely tame.

Quote:

Have you ever tried to force a child to nurse?? It ain't gonna happen!
Not suggesting that anyone forces an older child to nurse! That's why it's called 'enabling', not pushing, not coercing. BTW, I'm not saying it _is_ enabling. I am saying, "Some people will tell you that it is. What do you have to say about that?"
And I'm only asking people who feel like applying their energies to the discussion, not people who feel beleaguered by it. I'm sure that many of you feel like you face enough 'opposition' to your choices already. Then, I'm sure there are those who look foward to the chance to 'set the record straight'.

And I do want to add, on a personal note, that I feel like I weaned my daughter much too early, and I can admit that my decision was a selfish one. With the one I'm carrying now and the next one, I plan on practicing tandem nursing and CLW, but it's unfamiliar territory for me. I've never known anyone who nursed past early-toddlerhood, so when I say I'm not trying to express an opinion, that I'm playing devil's advocate to see what people have to say about the issue, I mean it. Whether you choose to believe it or not, I really can't help.
Those questions I asked in the original post may seem harsh, but those are the questions people want to ask. Those are the things they are thinking, and I don't think it does any good to whitewash things we don't like.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

...and another thing!...








I'd be the first to flip out if the law tried to interfere with breast-feeding at any age, in any way. I'm asking... for peoples'... _perpective_...!
(only, with an 's')


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## gizzyntaz (Apr 23, 2004)

I'm not a momma yet (December)... but I've learned a lot from these boards. DH and I were discussing all sorts of parenting items last Friday at lunch: circ-ing, co-sleeping, breastfeeding & extended breastfeeding. I've been able to easily convert him to all of my ways of thinking so far









I was discussing the benefits of extended nursing and expressed my interest in seeing if we can manage to accomplish child-led weaning. So far, he's supportive - of course, neither of us have any idea what we are getting into or what will work for our family.

We were discussing the seemingly common attitude in the mainstream that if you let your child sleep with you they will NEVER leave the bed, and if you let your child self-wean they will be nursing when they get to college.









Of course, most of us know that to be an insane reaction to two very normal behaviors worldwide. DH and I discussed societal pressures. As adults it is much easier for us to buck the "norm" and go against the "mainstream". For children it is much harder. We speculated that perhaps our children may leave the family bed or stop nursing earlier than "natural" (in a hypothetically uninfluenced society) just because of societal pressures they will have.

It is likely that many of a pre-schooler or kindergartener's friends will not share a family bed or nurse. Children may be able to pick up on that and it may lead them to change.

I'm not sure if this is completely relevant to this post or not, but it struck me that my musings might be a good topic of discussion.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Just because you don't claim the offensive assumptions doesn't make them any less offensive to those they target, KWIM?

Diminished or not, it's still negativity.

People suggesting that mothers here are doing something unseemly (at best) or perverse (at worst) is pretty unpleasant at the core. I think we *all* know the objections to child-led weaning and/or nursing kids past the age of "acceptable." Why do we need to give them more air time in this forum? If people are really curious, ask. (And saying, "Don't you think you are fucking up your kid by nursing them too long?" with all it's pre-conceived notions and judgments, might not be the best conversation starter.







)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
the title of the thread is "Anyone OPPOSED to BF'ing older children?" That is not the same as "Anyone CURIOUS about BF'ing older children?"

I just don't see the tone set up to "openly discuss" this issue. It seems to be an invitation for all the same old criticism and attacks to be trotted out and for mamas who come here for support to have to defend themselves once AGAIN.

ITA.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
Just by asking these questions, you are making implications that mothers who choose child-led-weaning are somehow emotionally or mentally unstable.

ITA w/ this, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
I wanted it to be clear that it was a place where opposition could be aired.

To invite opposition to extended breastfeeding is not in line with the purpose of this forum.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sbf*
To invite opposition to extended breastfeeding is not in line with the purpose of this forum.

Sheesh, she was looking for perspective from those who have some experience and some level-headedness about the issue. So she worded it wrong, she's already apologized. She was just looking for thoughts on the issue, and attempting to get honest ones, not just feel-good-whatever-you-want-lovefest ones. She worded it wrong, SHE APOLOGIZED, lets talk.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

As far as I can tell, from what she's written, she still wants this to be a thread where opposition to extended breastfeeding can be aired. She gave this as her reason for the title of this thread. If she thinks she worded it wrong, then when is the title still the same?


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sbf*
As far as I can tell, from what she's written, she still wants this to be a thread where opposition to extended breastfeeding can be aired. She gave this as her reason for the title of this thread. If she thinks she worded it wrong, then when is the title still the same?

Like she said, she couldn't think of another way to draw debate and honest reactions. This is a safe board for it. It is hardly like posting something with the same title on Babycenter.

I might have asked "What do you EBF mamas think of BFing older children - all opinions welcome" instead of what she posted, but I can see why she did it.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Niki, I don't think Sbf is being too harsh. I think she is just being honest about the knee jerk reaction to such a thread title. I know it happens, but I canthink of several other titles to invite information or education (if that is what I am looking for). How about, "Tell me about nursing an 'older child' ", "Tell me about CLW" or whatever.

My gut reaction to the post was, "what business is it of yours?" I don't go to forums looking to start controversy...especially where it already exists. To the moms I know who have sincerely asked about it, I understand that, because it is out of their frame of reference or they are just interested.

Breastfeeding is a personal and family decision. No one can "enable" a child to breastfeed...enabling is often used in the "recovery" literature for a spouse's denial or behaviors that help someone to keep drinking or using drugs..."enabling" often refers to "unhealthy" behavior.

I am certainly open to talking about it, however I don't feel like that is much of an opener.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I think after the age of seven...the breastfeeding pair should be looked at. I'm not saying there's anything wrong...but I'd just want to make sure the child was not being manipulated or guilted into still breastfeeding.

I think its only in a profoundly anti-breastfeeding culture that one would even wonder about these things, that it would even occur to anyone to question the motives of the mother. Very sad. In the movie The Last Emperor, wasn't the boy nursed for 10 years? Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought nursing was so wonderful, that it was a gift so _magnificent_ that princes deserved it?

Not every culture shares the view that a 7 year old wishing to nurse is indicative of a mental health problem in the mother:
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...ebMar98p3.html


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
I think its only in a profoundly anti-breastfeeding culture that one would even wonder about these things, that it would even occur to anyone to question the motives of the mother. Very sad.

ITA.


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

I can't imagine BF a 5 year old.... just like when I was pregnant I couldn't imagine bf a 1 year old. It sneaks up on you. I did not say 'oh, it is a boy, his name is Gavin and we will nurse till he is 38 months' I nursed him and expected him to give it up when he was ready. SOmehow I thought I knew when that would be... and every few months I would see how many months had passed and notice he was still nursing.
DH had a few things to say about it being time to wean at differnt times. Then he would say please don't. A neighbor said anyone who nurses past 18 months does it for themselves. (hers weaned at 15 months) I don't think you can really say till you have been there.
After nursing a 38 month old it was so weird to have the next one wean at 22 months. I could not believe he was weaning. I suppose I could have encouraged him- and did a time or two (we liked to nurse in bed so I took him to bed with me) he would get up and leave. That was the end of that. We shall see what this one does.

I do have to say for my activism part- I used to say DS2 would wean at 3. DD went off on me once saying that was totally unfair to pick an arbitrary age to wean. he should be able to nurse when he needs it and for me to keep it from him because he was 'x' months old was cruel.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
Like she said, she couldn't think of another way to draw debate and honest reactions.

That's exactly what I mean. She is still standing by this statement:

"I wanted it to be clear that it was a place where opposition could be aired."

And I still stand by this statement:

To invite opposition to extended breastfeeding is not in line with the purpose of this forum.

This is not a place for encouraging debate about whether or not women should extended breastfeed. It is not a forum for expressing opposition to extended breastfeeding.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I agree. No one goes arount the case against circumcision spouting about how baby boys need their foreskin pinched off. If they did they'd be shut down.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

SBF - I reread the posts and I think you're right now. I'd edit my posts but it would make reading the thread confusing.

I think that questions about BFing older children should be allowed here - but I think that the tone of the title was wrong only because it draws the wrong kind of idea into the post - still I think that the post should be allowed (what is wrong with asking those questions?).


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I don't think you will find any mamas here that do not support extended breastfeeding. after all, it is the extended breastfeeding forum. maybe at a regular "breastfeeding forum" you may find mothers that say they only like to breastfeed until 12 months or up until a certain age, but here, I would assume everyone believes in child-led weaning. I personally have never nursed a toddler, and since I am a person that works with short term goals, my goal is nursing my son for 2 years (he is 4 months) I am not saying I will wean him at 2 years. I think after 2 years I will be more relaxed. Now, I have like 250 oz. in the freezer "just in case" because I am determined to make my bf'ing relationship work no matter what, for AT LEAST 2 years.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

What shall we do here ladies? I'm happy to edit or shut down or whatever the OP would like. Just let me know. We could change the title or something. LMK.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

I think its only in a profoundly anti-breastfeeding culture that one would even wonder about these things, that it would even occur to anyone to question the motives of the mother. Very sad. In the movie The Last Emperor, wasn't the boy nursed for 10 years? Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought nursing was so wonderful, that it was a gift so magnificent that princes deserved it?

Why can't we question the motives of the mother? I'm not saying that there is a definite problem with nursing that long. I'd just question it...just like we question a woman who weans before the age of two.

I guess I put a lot of faith in that article Natural Age of Weaning. She says the natural age to wean is between 2 1/2 and 7 years. Let's not look at our general society because here weaning before a year is celebrated and anything after that is looked at with disgust.

So, let's just concentrate on our mothering.com community. I've seen women on here given grief for weaning earlier than 2.5...People say things like "Did I accidently come to babycenter.com instead of mothering.com?" So, why aren't we allowed to question or talk about women who nurse LONGER than 7 years?

I haven't even seen anyone say it is bad. But yet some of you have become so defensive. We just want to talk about it. Is it that big of a deal?

Dina


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
Why can't we question the motives of the mother? I'm not saying that there is a definite problem with nursing that long. I'd just question it...just like we question a woman who weans before the age of two.

I think comparing PARENT-led weaning and CHILD-led nursing is like comparing apples to oranges.

I don't see much difference between a 2 year old who nurses to sleep or for comfort and a 7 yr. old who does the same. I don't really consider the mother's influence in these instances.

As others have stated: you can't force a child to nurse. If you are doing something like forcing a child's mouth on your body for self-gratification, then that is abuse and has NOTHING to do with breastfeeding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
So, why aren't we allowed to question or talk about women who nurse LONGER than 7 years?

I haven't even seen anyone say it is bad. But yet some of you have become so defensive. We just want to talk about it. Is it that big of a deal?

There is a lot of talk about nursing older children in the Archives--lots of it addresses the issues brought up here. So I don't think the problem is that people are unwilling to DISCUSS it, but I don't think people should have to DEFEND it in this forum, KWIM.

And as I said before, there is a way to open dialogue without casting aspersions and I don't think that was done successfully here. (Though I think some people gave really good straightforward answers to the questions posed--so that's cool!)


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

Well if we could neatly package all humans into categories, then to say that EBF beyond a certain age is "wrong" would be OK. BUt we can't. Humans are all different! Children are humans too. I think a momma knows what her child needs.

My DD is 27 months and never in a BILLION years did I imagine that I would STILL be nursing her. She has no intention of weaning any time soon, I can tell you that. I have tried once after she turned 2 and she cried her little heart out - (me the softie let her cry all of 5 minutes) but she was sobbing. I knew she wasn't ready to wean, as much as I was ready for her to.

Will I cut it off at some point? Now I would say yes, but that's because I am not there yet and so it's easier to say NO WAY would I ever_______.

I once said when she was old enough to lift up my shirt and ask then she was too old. Not only does she lift, she chooses which side she wants to nurse.









Bottom line is it's the people who are not in the shoes who judge the wearer. OUr culture - hell, any culture, fears what is different from what the masses do. God forbid you aren't a sheeple! it makes other people uncomfortable to disrupt what THEY perceive as "normal".

I DO think that in some instances the mother can guilt the child into keeping up nursing, which is unhealthy, obviously. But if your child is sensitive and really needs to continue nursing, only a momma knows that. And that's what CLW is about - meeting the need of the child becuase at this point I would be perfectly happy if DD stopped nursing! But it's not about me. I do think there comes an age when she is mature enough to be able to be comforted without a boob. But again I question if this is a clear-cut age because all children are different.

There was a guy on the radio a few years ago who wanted BF'ing a child over 1 to be illegal because his mother nursed him until he was 4 and he considered it molestation. At around age 4 children are really going through a time of sexual identity and sexual discovery, often becoming sexually attracted to the opposite sex parent so I could see how this can be a confusing age and how this screwed up this man in this case assumuming his story is an example of a mother guilting the child into continuing to nurse. I agree with the poster who said this goes against natural weaning - it certainly does. I think if it's the point where it becomes about the mother and no longer about the child, it's time to call it quits. I have also heard mothers talking about ways to get the older child to continue nursing and I just think that's plain wrong. yeah, it breaks my heart when DD says "I"m a big girl" but that's what is supposed to happen.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

I take back what I said. Because maybe it was too harsh. It probably would be a very bad idea for the government to intervene or question an older-than-seven-year-old nursing. It's really none of their business and I'm guessing for most families who nurse that long, it is a good thing.

What I will say is I PERSONALLY question a family that keeps breastfeeding that long. To be honest, it's because I personally don't want to breastfeed that long and I feel I have the type of child that (if given the choice) would go up to age 13 or older. I want to know what these families are doing/or have done that have made breastfeeding go on so long. Is it because they have a high-need child? I have a high need child. That's why I think he could go on forever. But I know the Dr. Sears high need kid weaned at age 4. Did she self-wean or did her parents push her in anyway? Why does one high need child wean at 4 or 5 and another keep going until age 10?

I get confused about the definition of child-led. In my heart, I feel child-led would be parents making subtle attempts to wean....using distractions (do you want mommy milk now or would you rather play with blocks together first?) finding alternate methods of comfort, and setting limits (no you can't nurse at the mall. You can wait until you get home). But all in all, the child gets to decide when they're completely ready to stop. The parent doesn't say "You're six years old now. No more booby for you." (which I'm kind of planning to do...mean mommy me)

However, I think some people have a different idea of CLW. In these families, there are no limits put on the nursing child. If junior wants to lift up mom's shirt at the middle of a dinner party, wonderful! If child says "I want to nurse" the mom immediately lifts her shirt and says "Which side first?"

I don't think there's anything wrong with a family who does the above. It's just not for me. And I wonder with a family like that, how likely would it be for a child to wean under the age of seven?

I'm curious...for those of you who CLW with no distracting and no limits...what age did you child wean? Or how old is your nursing child?

Also, I think it's horrible that breastfeeding has been banished in our society because breasts have become such a sexual object. But I don't think we should completely deny the sexuality of breasts. I think the number one purpose of breasts is to nourish a child. But I think they also have a sexual purpose. I remember reading an anthropological theory about breasts. I can't remember it exactly, but it was something along the lines of if breasts were for nourishment of young only, than why would big breasts be so much in demand by men? Huge breasts are actually harder to breastfeed with...so in an evolution sense, wouldn't men NOT be attracted to large-breasted women? Also, I know in many mammal species, the breasts (teats...whatever) can't be seen (or can hardly be seen) until the animal has babies. Why are our breasts there all the time?

Anyway, I think there IS something sexual about breasts. And since children are hitting puberty so damn young, I wonder if it would cause sexual confusion for a sexually-developing youngster to be still breastfeeding? I'm guessing in many cases, they don't see their own mother's breasts as something sexual. It's their comfort object from childhood. I guess it would be the difference between having the love of your life touch your genital area and having a doctor give you a gyn exam. They are NOT the same.

But I still wonder. I am full of questions. But breastfeeding is a personal thing, so of course none of you have to feel obligated to answer.

Dina


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

I wont criticize (because, who am i?), but have always been curious as to why an older child (say 6 and up) would even want to breastfeed. I suppose nuturing and comfort, but kids do have coping mecahnisms, and it has always intrigued me as to why.
Yes kids that age have coping mechanisms, and sometimes nursing is one of those. Just because a child is "still" nursing does not mean that she/he is not also using those other skills or the parents not using other comforting measures. This is not an all or nothing issue. Breastfeeding does not preclude other comfort measures any more than it precludes tablefood, and vice versa.

Ekblade, I wouldn't mind seeing the title changed. I can see past the unnecessarily adversarial wording, but it's obviously bothering others and I can't blame them. It bugs me a bit too.

Quote:

Why can't we question the motives of the mother? I'm not saying that there is a definite problem with nursing that long. I'd just question it...just like we question a woman who weans before the age of two.
Who questions a woman who weans before the age of two? I'm just glad to see any mom doing the best she can with what she knows. In RL when I meet a mom who tells me she nursed for 6 months, I say congratulations for beating this country's average!

Quote:

I guess I put a lot of faith in that article Natural Age of Weaning. She says the natural age to wean is between 2 1/2 and 7 years. Let's not look at our general society because here weaning before a year is celebrated and anything after that is looked at with disgust.
I love that article, and I agree with Dettwyler's methodology, but I don't take that as gospel either. I've yet to see a well documented culture in which CHILDLED weaning is a norm. I've seen documentation that some school age kids in more traditional societies do indeed nurse, but something accepted for some kids does not a cultural norm make. Sorry but that's the RW, which doesn't always conform to anthropologists' theories. Human cultures rarely follow pure biology, we always, always mess with it in some way.

Quote:

So, let's just concentrate on our mothering.com community. I've seen women on here given grief for weaning earlier than 2.5...People say things like "Did I accidently come to babycenter.com instead of mothering.com?"
I think posters saying things like that are WAY out of line. See the first chunk of words quoted from Thirtycats.

Quote:

So, why aren't we allowed to question or talk about women who nurse LONGER than 7 years?
When someone says that they think that moms nursing a child over 7 "should be looked at", how do you expect that to be taken??? Who pray tell are you suggesting "look at" such a mom and child? What do YOU think will happen the local CPS gets involved, given the absymmal lack of knowledge about the inherent normalcy of breastfeeding and breastfeeding beyond infancy in this culture. To even say that in That way is to imply that there is indeed something wrong and abusive going on.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

When someone says that they think that moms nursing a child over 7 "should be looked at", how do you expect that to be taken??? Who pray tell are you suggesting "look at" such a mom and child? What do YOU think will happen the local CPS gets involved, given the absymmal lack of knowledge about the inherent normalcy of breastfeeding and breastfeeding beyond infancy in this culture. To even say that in That way is to imply that there is indeed something wrong and abusive going on.
Yes, I agree with you. That is why I took back what I said in another post.

Dina


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## Elana (May 18, 2004)

Mealy-mom, I'll address your question:

I think that it's a matter of personal choice.

When a family starts a process there are a few factors involved: 1. the baby, 2. the parents, 3. the rest of the family (as in siblings).
Notice society and expectations aren't there?!

Well, I think that each process is affected by these three things. So, let's say that "baby" (or nursling in our case) grows and grows and loves to nurse. It doesn't bother the parents, in fact, they enjoy it. IT doesn't bother the rest of the family (siblings) - they get to nurse also!! lol!!!

So, why stop?! But, if it does bother one of the factors, then it should be questioned for that family.

I'll give a few examples:

my dd was 2 1/2 and I was 6 months pregnant. She nursed around the clock. I was going bonkers. I tried to cut it down to 2 nursings a day, but she just wouldn't accept it. So I did parent led weaning, and eventually she weaned before I gave birth. It wasn't traumatic, in fact, I don't even remember the "last" nursing sessoin, because it *was* natural and smooth and easy. But she would have continued if it didn't bug me so much. On the other hand - she's now 4 1/2 and she still sleeps with us. Cause she wants to and it fits in fine with all the other factors. That might also be considered "different" or "causing damage and too much dependance, " etc. But with me - that's not the issue. Maybe a year from now she won't want to anymore. Maybe I'll feel like it's too much for me, I don't know!! So I take it one day at a time.

The reason why I think there are so few ebf children is because there aren't that many mommies who have the strength and patience to do clw, even if it's way off of what they originally planned, or even - wanted.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I guess I put a lot of faith in that article Natural Age of Weaning. She says the natural age to wean is between 2 1/2 and 7 years.
Dettwyler said:

Quote:

non-human primate data *suggest* that human children are designed to receive all of the benefits of breast milk and breastfeeding for an absolute minimum of two and a half years, and an *apparent* upper limit of *around* seven years
"apparent."
"suggest."
"around."

These word choices show that Dettwyler's mind is open to the possibility that even longer may be normal. I think she is doing research right now with long term nursing moms. We may know more about this by the time our own children are parents. Hard to say yet.

Quote:

So, why aren't we allowed to question or talk about women who nurse LONGER than 7 years?
That just sounds like the rhetoric of the anti-nursing larger culture to me. Moms of tiny infants have been told they are "only doing it for themselves."

The article from LLL discusses information that was found by the author of the book Mothering Your Nursing Toddler:

Quote:

In ancient India, influenced by the belief that the longer a child nursed the longer he would live, mothers usually nursed their children as long as possible, often seven or *even nine years sometimes*.
I just don't see the magical power of the seven year mark. Personally I wouldn't even nurse to 7 and was glad my CLW'ed child weaned before that age, but that doesn't mean I think it's wrong to nurse to 7 or beyond, I don't, if it works for another child and mom.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

That just sounds like the rhetoric of the anti-nursing larger culture to me. Moms of tiny infants have been told they are "only doing it for themselves."

Okay, if you want to think someone who questions breastfeeding over the age of seven is anti-breastfeeding...fine, so be it.

I guess I'm anti-breastfeeding woman who happens to be bf an-almost-three-year old, who hates formula companies, who cringes when seeing woman covering themselves up with a tent to breastfeed in public.

Dina


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I think most members here at MDC agree that clw is best. I must admit that a number of years ago I would have







if I knew someone that nursed their seven year old. If you have been educated and have never wondered about that I say great! I wasn't raised like that, though. We were very mainstream and while nursing was always important to me I didn't even know about nursing past one year. I think it's important for us all to be open and understanding of different view points and questions that others may have.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

just don't see the magical power of the seven year mark. Personally I wouldn't even nurse to 7 and was glad my CLW'ed child weaned before that age, but that doesn't mean I think it's wrong to nurse to 7 or beyond, I don't, if it works for another child and mom.
Is there any age where you would begin to question BF (not declare that it is wrong, but just wonder what's going on with that family) How about a ten-year-old nursing? A twelve-year old? A fifteen year-old? A twenty-five year old?

If we question bF at a certain age, does that make us anti-breastfeeding?

It's not like anyone here came on and said "Breastfeeding a nine year old is disgusting and wrong."

Dina


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I see that now Dina, thank-you. I will attempt to answer your questions from my experience.

but first: "What I will say is I PERSONALLY question a family that keeps breastfeeding that long. To be honest, it's because I personally don't want to breastfeed that long..."

I personally question why someone would jump out a perfectly functioning airplane or off a bridge or squeeze themselves into a cave underground, but my desire to stay on solid ground in free air doesn't mean it's not okay for others to do these things. Understand?









There is however a world of variation between the two "extremes" you propose in the post prior to that. I don't usually say 'no' to DD, but I will tell her to go brush her teeth and get into her pajamas first. She won't ask in the middle of supper because she's busy eating. I immediately respond unless I can tell that what she's really wanting is something else. I try to not let nursing be her excuse to not do something she's been asked to do... For me though CLW means letting her have the primary control as to if she nurses. I don't offer anymore, unless it seems to me that she's wanting but not asking for reasons unknown. She is more than free to say 'no' and has ever since she was 2 and sometimes just wanted to snuggle.

Oh and neither one was ever allowed to just walk up and lift my shirt. Manners can be taught and learned at toddler ages, takes time, but can be done.

Quote:

And since children are hitting puberty so damn young,
Got data? which children? are breastfed children hitting puberty young? have studies been done to even find this out?

DS didn't start the barest hints until he was 11 or so, and those were indeed barely hints. At 13 he's getting some voice changes. Is that young or "normal" (realizing that there has always been a range of "normal")? Since he weaned at 5, I don't think puberty was an issue. He knew a bit about the birds and bees by then though and you're right, breasts are not sex objects to him. He's only ever seen them used for babyfeeding. He knows about the alternative uses from a thorough sex ed class we sent him to, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't particularly notice if mine are not covered. However he does not like the t-shirt I made for myself with breastfeeding artworks all over the front, but he doesn't want me to put a UU bumpersticker on the car either, so I think his problem is one of standing out from the crowd, not breasts.

DD at 5 is showing no confusion or other "awareness" beyond some days she wants 2 babies and other days she wants no babies. And occasionally she asks if birth hurts.

Quote:

I am full of questions.
Ask, worst I can say is "I don't know.":LOL


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

Is there any age where you would begin to question BF (not declare that it is wrong, but just wonder what's going on with that family) How about a ten-year-old nursing? A twelve-year old? A fifteen year-old? A twenty-five year old?
No need to IMO. I think those extreme ages don't happen. Got evidence for any 10 year olds? 12 year olds? 15? 25 (not with wife) year olds?

I think these ages are becoming as strawmen to be knocked down so the entire idea of a child beyond toddlerhood nursing can also be knocked down. Since the likelyhood of a child of normal mental and emotional developement still nursing at those ages is so rare as to be nonexistant, I think this is a nonissue.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

I do want to say that I kind of understand why some people are being very sensitive and defensive.

Now that we're approaching the end of toddlerhood, I feel we have reached a new level of extended breastfeeding. We're entering the "preschool" age. I remember reading some book that was pretty pro-extended breastfeeding, but it didn't seem very positive about the beyond-toddler years. I felt kind of rejected by the book.

And once I was so excited to find someone I had met at playgroup had bf their child until the age of 2. I thought I had found someone who could support me. But when I told her I thought we'd probably be BF until age 4, she looked fairly bothered. I suddenly felt like some kind of freak.

I can imagine that if you breastfeed past the age of 7, you feel extremely ostracized by society...there are probably even LLL leaders who can't accept what you do.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feeling. I'm sorry about my comment about interviewing the parent and child. I totally disagree with that now (a girl's allowed to change her mind, right?)







: But I still feel a little uneasy about an eight year-old breastfeeding...or a ten year old. Hopefully, some of you can educate me and I'll be less ignorant and uneasy.

And who knows...I could end up being one of those woman who breastfeeds a ten-year-old. Some of you should save this post in case that happens...then you guys can laugh at me.

Dina


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
Is there any age where you would begin to question BF (not declare that it is wrong, but just wonder what's going on with that family) How about a ten-year-old nursing? A twelve-year old? A fifteen year-old? A twenty-five year old?

I got to my mindset gradually too as another poster said above. Puberty I guess. Then again, one of the bf advocacy books I read talked about a mother nursing an adult daughter who was upset. I believe it was in an Asian culture? Anyone remember that? The Politics of Breastfeeding maybe? Sure it surprised me, but was normal in that cultural context.

I also heard of a real life teenager who would die if she consumed anything other than human milk because of a rare disorder. Is there something psychologically wrong with her parents for continuing to find pumped milk for her so she could live?


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

DS didn't start the barest hints until he was 11 or so, and those were indeed barely hints. At 13 he's getting some voice changes. Is that young or "normal" (realizing that there has always been a range of "normal")? Since he weaned at 5, I don't think puberty was an issue. He knew a bit about the birds and bees by then though and you're right, breasts are not sex objects to him. He's only ever seen them used for babyfeeding.
Thanks for answering the questions









Thanks for your patience!

Dina


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

No need to IMO. I think those extreme ages don't happen. Got evidence for any 10 year olds? 12 year olds? 15? 25 (not with wife) year olds?
Dettwyler's recent not-yet-fully-published study has a small handful of ten-year-olds still nursing. It does happen. And who knows if each of those ten-year-olds is going to wean???

Quote:

got to my mindset gradually too as another poster said above. Puberty I guess. Then again, one of the bf advocacy books I read talked about a mother nursing an adult daughter who was upset. I believe it was in an Asian culture? Anyone remember that? The Politics of Breastfeeding maybe? Sure it surprised me, but was normal in that cultural context.
If I was talking to a woman about breastfeeding and she said "Well, I breastfed my father," I'd think "Oh no! This woman is a total freak in some kind of freaky kinky incest thing." But then what if she says "See, we were lost on an island and didn't have enough water for both of us. I drank the water and then gave him my breast milk." I'd think that was pretty cool.

I don't think we should make definite negative assumptions about any cultural practice...no matter how barbaric or freaky it seems. But I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning it. We all have a point (not just talking about bf) where we worry a little. Then our questions are answered and we either keep worrying or say "Oh, okay. Cool."

Dina


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/l...rty010207.html

By the way, above is a link to an article about early puberty.

Maybe breastfeeding would counteract it...at least the physical aspects. And maybe AP parenting would counteract the psychological aspects.

It's sad when kids grow up too fast







I student-taught in a 3rd-4th grade classroom. I felt like I was among teenagers.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)




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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Note to self, post reply then edit when the link you want to include is found!









Quote:

I also heard of a real life teenager who would die if she consumed anything other than human milk because of a rare disorder. Is there something psychologically wrong with her parents for continuing to find pumped milk for her so she could live?
She only needs humanmilk now when she gets sick. I donated one batch to the effort in 1990. Would've been two but the refrigerator broke.







:

http://www.ardmoreite.com/stories/05...ew_lacie.shtml

I'll read the article later Dina. I'm tired, have stuff to do, and this rain may turn into a storm, at which point I shut down the computer. My guess however is that all the stuff we're environmentally exposed now, as well as the prevalence of formula feeding is why there's so much earlier puberty. Calves need to grow quickly. Some plastics can be hormone disrupters. There are hormone-like substances in soy....


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## OTMomma (Aug 12, 2003)

:


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Meiri...thanks for the link...that is not the girl I was talking about. There's another.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
Does anyone feel that this fosters over-dependency?
That it is setting children up for humiliation from their peers?
That some mothers may be co-dependent and unable to let go of their childrens infancy, for selfish reasons?

You know these questions could be applied to many things we do as parents.

We could question's one parenting for choosing the name we did, or not buying hoochie mama clothes, being vegitarians, religious symbols.

Co-dependent people can find many ways to do this, from extended bottle use, pacifier, not potty training, not buying bra's because their baby is still a baby, et So could extended nursing be caused by co-dependency, yes but so can anything else.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I don't think people should have to DEFEND it in this forum, KWIM.

And as I said before, there is a way to open dialogue without casting aspersions and I don't think that was done successfully here.

Again, I agree.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:

And since children are hitting puberty so damn young...
I promised myself I would ask hypothetical questions and stay out of it (even when I'm having my ass chewed for daring to post this)... but I have to jump in for 2 seconds. Aren't children hitting puberty sooner because of all the hormones in cow's milk? There's real irony there.


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## mealymama (Jun 8, 2004)

SO, scratch that! I just caught up on the posts and this thread, so far, has not been what it was intended to be








I hope it can be... I really thought it would be appreciated if it was put here rather than in another forum, but maybe that was a big fat error in judgement. I hope not. I think it's a good topic, but it was obviously presented in a way that was provocative and caustic, so changes were made. It's not my intention to tippy-toe around the heart of the matter and I'm not going to do that. If anyone here demands uniformity of opinion within this forum, away I will go. But I hope the changes will keep that from being necessary?


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## OTMomma (Aug 12, 2003)

I think this was an interesting thread idea. Personally I don't really understand why a 7 year old would want/need to nurse. My own dd is only 2, and still nursing, so maybe I would understand better if my child were older. But it does seem like the reason my dd nurses has changed over time, at least in my mind. When she was a newborn it was about nourishment, as a toddler it seems to be more about comfort. I think some children do need more (time, attention, comfort etc) than other children.
I don't mean to be inflamatory, and I hope I'm not


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

My oldest nurser is nearly 4 right now. Unfortunately for the first three kids I was of the mindset that 1yr was the limit.







Anyway, I never thought I would nurse a four year old! My 7 1/2 year old still sucks her thumb and my 6 year old just got rid of his paci. I never thought I would have kids that age doing that either. I guess parenting is just a learning process. I like to say "I was the best parent when I didn't have any kids!"


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## tofumama (Jan 20, 2004)

I have debated whether or not to post here...
I bf both my kids, and will bf my new bun. I think its wonderful, beautiful, and I couldn't imagine NOT doing this for my children. My dd was 5 wks early, and has been sick one time in her 16 month life and never had antibiotics. That being said, they both lost interest in bf shortly before they turned one. I was available, they were more interested in playing, and exploring their world. You can say that's not possible, but honestly, they didn't look for it, and I didn't offer. I wasn't going to 'make' them nurse, I offered plenty of hugs, snuggles, and my lap is always available so they weren't lacking in the nurturing dept. I didn't introduce solids until they were both 6 mo. and they drank from cups at 8 ish mo. My plan was to nurse for at least a year, probably 18 mo. but they had other plans. What do I think of ebf, like 4, 5, and older? I wouldn't do it. If other moms want to, more power to you. For me, I feel that as a mother I can comfort my child, nurture, calm, help them sleep etc without offering my breast. That's me. Do I think its wrong? That's not for me to judge. There are many cultures that practice very EBF, b/c they have to to ensure the survival of their children. We don't (in most cases) have to do that. To flame someone for the length of time they bf? WTF? Don't we all have something better to do?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i absolutely draw the line at bfing a child with an incipient mustache.

(for an actual real-life example, when my dd was 7, i said 'basta'.)

you cannot guilt a child into bfing. i think it is a completely hypothetical 'what if?' thrown out there by anxious people. i would bet money that *every* older nursling is having a nice night-suckle, or a morning nursing break, (or both, or when they are feverish, etc) & moving on with the day. who is going to ridicule? who has a clue that they are doing it?

(one good reason for a word other than 'boobie, boobie', lol. i never have to ask ds not to ask in public, because no one is savvy to 'his' word for nursing but immediate family & close enough friends to not bother us about it.)

it is such not a big deal. my dd is 6 months away from being 18 & hasn't asked to nurse in *ages*. suse


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Susey , about it not being a big deal. All of the benefits of nursing continue, and nursing the child has probably become a special rlationship that doesn't demand much time or thought. Also as a child grows, they begin to understand and accept limits and the mother's feelings.

Back to my


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Suse...what is a "basta"...? Does that mean your dd nursed then?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Just curious and perhaps a little off topic but my dd, I believe, who happens to be 32 months, nurses for nourishment. I see alot of people who have commented that their kids at this point are doing it for comfort.

I still experience let down and she gulps and swallows. Sure there are times, maybe once or twice, where she comes to me for emotional connection but there are about 5 - 7 times otherwise where I would think its because she want milk.

Anyone else experiencing this....she nurses about 10 times a day on average and this includes twice at night.

So when people ask me if I will nurse her much longer, I am kind of dumbfounded at the question because we are still so much in the nourishment stage.

I think it is really dependant on the child.


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## Chi-Chi Mama (Mar 13, 2002)

First, I wanted to say that I read this thread with much interest. I think the OP asked an interesting question. I see how some of the wording might have been taken as offensive, but it didn't seem to be the intent - and this really is a safe place for ebf, and if this question can't be asked here, then where?









Now, I just have to say ITA with the following:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Just curious and perhaps a little off topic but my dd, I believe, who happens to be 32 months, nurses for nourishment. I see alot of people who have commented that their kids at this point are doing it for comfort.

I still experience let down and she gulps and swallows. Sure there are times, maybe once or twice, where she comes to me for emotional connection but there are about 5 - 7 times otherwise where I would think its because she want milk.

Anyone else experiencing this....she nurses about 10 times a day on average and this includes twice at night.

So when people ask me if I will nurse her much longer, I am kind of dumbfounded at the question because we are still so much in the nourishment stage.

I think it is really dependant on the child.

DD is three days away from turning 32 months.. When she was born, I definitely planned to bf, and was thinking "6mnths to a year", then thanks to this place, it became "at least two" Now I've lost the support of everyone IRL (expect dd







) but that's ok - dh doesn't say anything either way, and I don't really care about the opinions of others. I have been somewhat ambivalent at times, wishing that she would nurse less. I know she is not even three yet, but I am sometimes ask myself what *my* limit might be. I would like to go the child-led weaning route, but then my mind starts wondering: 4yrs, 5 yrs, 7yrs, now reading this thread, 10yrs?









Sorry this is kind of rambly... I'm tired.. dd's been throwing up, and for the first time in her life didn't wake up to nurse two nights in a row. (dh used to give me a bit of a hard time about weaning, and then dd was sick for a few days about 6 mnths ago and all she could take was BM, so he has left me alone







I"m used to her nursing when she's sick.

Remember that ambivalence I was feeling about nursing? After the last two nights I am sad that I might be over soon









*disclaimer* I am not planning on "making" her nurse because I am feeling a little sad


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

'basta' means 'enough already!' in italian.

32 months is still a baby







of course it is still for nourishment! (even for the comfort-sucklers, that is always a component- the people who say it stops being nourishing but advocate cow's milk in quantity make me quietly scream with the contradiction in logic!)

some kids need a lot of comforting, lol. it doesn't mean that my 3 1/3 yr old interrupts preschool to ask for it. i think that is a big part of people's fear. my 3 /12 yr old (and my nearly 2 of course, as well) actually nurse quite a bit, but it's nothing like the pattern of nb nursing. (and i feel comfortable in saying 'no, later' if i'm busy or somewhere i'd prefer not to; something i'd never do to a baby much younger than my littlest.) it is so convenient to have available as a tool after a big barky dog or with a sore throat or after a bad dream... you get the picture.

suse


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

ITA with you Chi Chi...

Your post reminds me of the time that dd had hand foot and mouth and stopped nursing for 2 days. It really freaked me out because I was not at all prepared for the nursing to stop. That was about 6 months ago...she came back to the breast on her own and resumed her schedule herself.

Somedays I tell ya I am ready for my body to be my own and then we have a sweet time together and I realize that my frustration is based on other things in my life not the nursing. Such as working too much...not eating right...not getting a chance to workout or do yoga.

Anyhoo now I am ramblin!


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
32 months is still a baby







of course it is still for nourishment! (even for the comfort-sucklers, that is always a component- the people who say it stops being nourishing but advocate cow's milk in quantity make me quietly scream with the contradiction in logic!)











My 3 1/2 year old breastfeeds for nourishment. We have long feeding sessions, throughout the day. She doesn't have "just a sip."


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7+*
I like to say "I was the best parent when I didn't have any kids!"










I love that!

So true!!!!

Dina


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

For me, I feel that as a mother I can comfort my child, nurture, calm, help them sleep etc without offering my breast. That's me. Do I think its wrong? That's not for me to judge. There are many cultures that practice very EBF, b/c they have to to ensure the survival of their children. We don't (in most cases) have to do that.

My dad had a similar response when I gave him the Natural Age of Weaning to read. He said it's fine for children in other countries to breastfeed so long because they need it. We have a healthy country so we don't need to breastfeed three and four year olds. My response to him was a question. "Do you take vitamins?" I asked that because I know he does. He looked kind of embarrassed...and I think he knew I had a good point. Why does he need to take vitamins? We live in such a healthy enviroment. We have modern medicine. Modern technology. Why does he need that immunity boost? Truth be told, he probably doesn't NEED it. He'd could probably live a fairly healthy and long life without it. But the vitamins help him live even longer and keep him even healthier. It's probably not as important as someone in a developing country, but it still does a lot of good.

For those of us breastfeeding over the medically recommended age of 2...I don't think many of us are doing it because of medical benefits. I'm not sitting there saying "Hey, DS needs to keep bf because it will increase his IQ, keep him from getting sick, and make him more healthy." It's more like DS is EXTREMELY emotionally attached to BF. Weaning him now would not be like saying "No, you can't have a candy bar." It would be more like saying "You can never hug mommy again." or "We are now going to throw away your favorite stuffed animal."

Almost every parent I talks to speaks of their child's nursing strikes...some go on for weeks, so months, some turn into weaning, and some just last hours. My DS has never lost interest. He is a boob addict. At this point, weaning him would be emotionally traumatic for both of us. So, I let him continue. I cheer myself up by knowing that this is biologically normal. And I cheer myself up by thinking of all the added medical benefits.

I do have my limits...although those limits keep rising and rising. I know DS is going to end up being the first college student still BF. But I guess on the plus side, he'll be super smart and have damn good immunity.

Dina


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mealymama*
I was wondering if there are moms out here who believe in CLW but also believe there is a point where the line should be drawn.

This is self contradictory. You can only believe one or the other. Either you believe in letting the child lead the weaning at whatever age the child is ready, or you believe in parent-initiated weaning at X years of age (X = the age limit determined by the parent).


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
'basta' means 'enough already!' in italian.



in spanish too!


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I don't think DD's nursing went to primarily for comfort until well after she'd turned 3; most definately it was both because she'd tell me at different times the onnee is food or that onnee is drink. Now that she's 5, I can say that it's primarily comfort, but she still wants MILK not just comfort, because she will complain if there's not immediate milk.

Good analogy there with the vitamins Dina!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

oh, there's frustration if the baby left one 'empty', lol. we are definately looking for milk.

suse


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

This is self contradictory. You can only believe one or the other. Either you believe in letting the child lead the weaning at whatever age the child is ready, or you believe in parent-initiated weaning at X years of age (X = the age limit determined by the parent).
Very good point!! I guess I'm more in the parent-initiated boat....

Dina


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I've just now read this thread (just the first page so far, will read the rest when I get more time), bummer I missed the original post before the edit so that I could get the real feel of the reason for the post in the first place. I'm not sure I understand what you are asking mealymama. Are you asking if there are any of us here in this EB forum who don't agree with child-led-weaning? Or are you asking those of us who are CLW if there is an age when we draw the line? I can answer the second question, if that is your question. If a mother is practicing true child-led-weaning then she understands that there is no need to put a cut-off age on her child. If she did then she wouldn't be practicing CLW...you cannot CLW to a point then cut the child off and still say you did CLW. A mama dedicated to CLW trusts that if her child is asking to nurse then her child is young enough to nurse, REGARDLESS of the child's age.

My dd just decided to wean at 7yrs. If she changes her mind and wants to continue then I will let her. I am hoping that your intentions here are good, that you want to learn more so that you can make the best choice for your family, and that you just have chosen the wrong use of wording (from what I've read thus far, no offense). So what else do you want to know?


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sbf*
This is self contradictory. You can only believe one or the other. Either you believe in letting the child lead the weaning at whatever age the child is ready, or you believe in parent-initiated weaning at X years of age (X = the age limit determined by the parent).










Sorry sbf, I just wrote what you had already stated (just now catching up with this interesting thread).


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7+*
I think most members here at MDC agree that clw is best. I must admit that a number of years ago I would have







if I knew someone that nursed their seven year old. If you have been educated and have never wondered about that I say great! I wasn't raised like that, though. We were very mainstream and while nursing was always important to me I didn't even know about nursing past one year. I think it's important for us all to be open and understanding of different view points and questions that others may have.


This was me too, growing up and when I was a new parent. I've learned along the way and taken it one day at a time.....with plenty of trust, instincts, and patience.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*








Sorry sbf, I just wrote what you had already stated

Not at all - glad to have you reinforce it!


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