# why are so many boys treated as sub-humans?



## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

....it sickens me daily, in countless interactions with random people.

What is wrong with people??? The emotional cruelty that they must endure, right from Day 1 in the hospital, until they are out on their own is disgusting and unbelievable. what a sick world this is. grrrrrrrrrr.

rant over.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I know what you mean.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

You know whats been bothering me for awhile? Girls clothing. No, seriously, Im all for cute slogans like "girl power" thats fine. Its the ones that say "Boys are stupid" "I hate boys" things like that. And in small girls sizes. like for five year olds. I cant imagine my five year old boy knowing how to deal with that.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
You know whats been bothering me for awhile? Girls clothing. No, seriously, Im all for cute slogans like "girl power" thats fine. Its the ones that say "Boys are stupid" "I hate boys" things like that. And in small girls sizes. like for five year olds. I cant imagine my five year old boy knowing how to deal with that.

I don't even like that girl power stuff b/c it always ends up with, "girls rule and boys drool"


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Maybe you could be more specific? I am the mother of boys and most of my friends have boys. I have never seen any of these children treated as "sub human."


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Maybe you could be more specific? I am the mother of boys and most of my friends have boys. I have never seen any of these children treated as "sub human."









:


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I dont know, maybe she meant the type of parents who tell boys not to cry? Belittle them for showing emotions maybe?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
I dont know, maybe she meant the type of parents who tell boys not to cry? Belittle them for showing emotions maybe?

I haven't seen that since my stepfather did that to my brother, in the early 80's. I think most people have evolved somewhat since then.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

My oldest was born in 1991. when he was about five or so, late 90's, some ex friends of mine were told that thier seven year old had mooned someone at school. They invited over a ton of people, then forced this child to stand on a coffee table and drop his pants. Then every grown adult in the room proceeded to point at him and laugh. This was their idea of teaching him to keep his pants up. I wasnt there, I heard about it later. I was horrified. Not very evolved at all.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Anglyn: You know whats been bothering me for awhile? Girls clothing. No, seriously, Im all for cute slogans like "girl power" thats fine. Its the ones that say "Boys are stupid" "I hate boys" things like that.
WTF? i have never seen clothing like that but I wouldn't be shocked if I came across it. Our culture needs therapy bigtime.

Here's a special little moment I had last weekend:

I'm at my son's school last Saturday because they are having their annual "Craft Bazaar". So I am browsing and come across this "bizarre" craft item. It is at a table with all of these hand-painted signs that have _oh-so-cute_ little sayings on them.

I'm looking at 2 different hand-painted signs about 3 feet apart. The first is written in BLUE and says:

Quote:

Boy: A noise with dirt on it.
Then my eye goes towards the other sign with PINK paint:

Quote:

Girl: A giggle wrapped in sunshine.

I was so irked, and felt that she (the crafter) should be _spoken_ too. So I commented to her that *the boy sign was "mean"*. She laughed nervously and I just scowled at her and walked away.

This is what i am talking about. What's with all these cryptic and blunt negative messages towards boys???!!!

Gee-wiz, if i didn't know any better, I'd think our culture likes it this way.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

It's definitely not in the past, sadly.







I hope I am able to teach my children to be compassionate and emotionally healthy individuals.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I haven't seen that since my stepfather did that to my brother, in the early 80's. I think most people have evolved somewhat since then.

sadly, no. I am glad it is better where you live but I am in small town texas and people treat their sons like crap here. What I notice a lot of in my waiting room hours at kid activities is mothers who completely ignore their sons and give them no guidance whatsoever, but tacitly encourage them to be obnoxious and violent until someone gets hurt or something gets broken at which point they yank them by the arm, get in their faces and yell, and then smack them. Then they go back to gossiping with the other mothers, usually with a remark about the poor kid being "all boy" and a laugh. I always want to suggest that if they paid attention to their sons or encouraged any kind of good behavior, they would still be all boy but also all happy boy and probably all well behaved boy and stop the stereotype fulfillment cycle, but frankly, after witnessing this kind of exchange, I am usually too disturbed to talk.
I hope it is on the wane but I see no sign of that where I live.
And I do everything I can to keep it away from both of my kids.
It makes me very sad too.








layne


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Layne: frankly, after witnessing this kind of exchange, I am usually too disturbed to talk.

Very well put. I am very disturbed to watch perfectly "normal" looking parents treat their boys routinely like crapola.

Maybe I will start to document all of the f***ed things I see people doing with their boys. For those with eyes, feel free to chip in, we should have voumns by the time we are done!


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

As the mother of two boys, I've seen this too. It's the stereotypes our culture has about boys being loud, disruptive, destructive and aggressive that sets up such negative reactions to boys simply existing.

And I hate it when people encourage little girls with the "oh no, here comes a BOY!" attitude - and not even it a cutesy cootie type of way, which is annoying enough, but like oh no, the fun is over now that a horrible male child has entered the room.

ETA: To the other mothers of boys who feel like you have never experienced this attitude, have you never had a negative reaction to people even finding out you have boys? i.e. Someone asks if you have kids, you respond, yes two boys, and you get the "oh lordy!" and "you have your hands full!" and "better you than me!" or my personal favorite "good LUCK with THAT!" in a horribly sarcastic tone. I want to smack people - they are putting down my sons, and they think it's acceptable for them to do so.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chimpmandee* 
As the mother of two boys, I've seen this too. It's the stereotypes our culture has about boys being loud, disruptive, destructive and aggressive that sets up such negative reactions to boys simply existing.

And I hate it when people encourage little girls with the "oh no, here comes a BOY!" attitude - and not even it a cutesy cootie type of way, which is annoying enough, but like oh no, the fun is over now that a horrible male child has entered the room.

ETA: To the other mothers of boys who feel like you have never experienced this attitude, have you never had a negative reaction to people even finding out you have boys? i.e. Someone asks if you have kids, you respond, yes two boys, and you get the "oh lordy!" and "you have your hands full!" and "better you than me!" or my personal favorite "good LUCK with THAT!" in a horribly sarcastic tone. I want to smack people - they are putting down my sons, and they think it's acceptable for them to do so.


Oh yes. My own mother. When I was pg. with my third boy, my mother seriously suggested that dd come live with her (my three and half year old dd) to get away from 'all those boys' and when I got offened, she just shook her head and kept saying, "poor kate,poor, poor little katie"


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
For those with eyes, feel free to chip in, we should have voumns by the time we are done!









I hope you aren't suggesting that those of us who don't see this, don't see it because we don't have eyes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chimpmandee* 
ETA: To the other mothers of boys who feel like you have never experienced this attitude, have you never had a negative reaction to people even finding out you have boys? i.e. Someone asks if you have kids, you respond, yes two boys, and you get the "oh lordy!" and "you have your hands full!" and "better you than me!" or my personal favorite "good LUCK with THAT!" in a horribly sarcastic tone. I want to smack people - they are putting down my sons, and they think it's acceptable for them to do so.

I get the, "you must have your hands full." but that is because I have four kids, not because the youngest is a boy. So no, I have NEVER had a negative reaction when someone finds out I have a boy. It's usually.. OH.. you finally got a boy!


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## Alison's Mom (May 3, 2007)

Well, I'll admit that I bought my friend a shirt that said 'Boys Cheat' after her boyfriend cheated on her (as an adult), but I don't think anti-boy slogans are appropriate for kids.

I have a boy and a girl and we often comment that they are so different, and yes, my boy is louder, more active and breaks things more often, but then again, he is also less stubborn and less prone to meltdowns than his sister, and a really really sweet kid.

I don't think I've really noticed people around here treating their boys the way some of you mention. . . that's really sad to think that some little boys get treated so badly.


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## vilaura (Jun 11, 2008)

I have both boys and girls and I've never noticed boys being treated as sub-human. What a terrible thing that would be to witness.









Originally Posted by *Chimpmandee*
_you get the "oh lordy!" and "you have your hands full!" and "better you than me!" or my personal favorite "good LUCK with THAT!" in a horribly sarcastic tone._
I haven't gotten that with my boys, but did hear it a lot with my twins.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

I've noticed it in others, but not with my own son. But that's probably because he has waist length hair and long eyelashes.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

It's also how easily they can be diagnosed by not-very-good doctors with disorders (meaning a GOOD doctor wouldn't consider being a boy to be a symptom, but BAD ones would), or thought to have attention problems, just b/c they are boys.

I actually don't have a problem with "boy=a noise with dirt on it"...I've seen that on a shirt and thought it was kind of funny but in an ENDEARING awwww I love my boy kind of way.

But when it's right up next to the girl thing that's all sweetness (and, um, as a girl I can tell you I'm NOT a giggle wrapped in sunshine, though my half sister is!) then it looks ugly.

Then again, "little boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails" vs "little girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice" is an oldie!


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

i see it from girl dissing stuff to boy dissing. i dont buy it dont like eather way. pink is for girl umm nope my dd wears pink as does my ds. boys are rocks and girls are eggs. i do hear things but when i do i put them in their place. "oh boy here comes trouble"(nope that one is) "hey boy you need your hair cut"(nope just needs to get braided) "oh aint he bad" (ummm no he is just standing there looking).....both of mine are treated the same.








too funny cause i think my daughter is worse then my ds by far. bestfriends dd is worse then her ds. the top defence i have is..........
my mother still to this day (im 30) says she would of taken triplet boys in place of me because i was such a handfull...she had 3 boys in a row then years later me...







:i heard that as far back as i remember but i know i am what she wanted all along so i always know i am a mommy's girl







:


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

Oh yes, I have experienced this. The worst one I have ever heard is a father telling his little boy "suck it up, princess"


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

Oh, and my sil refers to her own two kids (boy/girl) as "the brats". Even to their faces


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urchin_grey* 
I've noticed it in others, but not with my own son. But that's probably because he has waist length hair and long eyelashes.









My DS as well. And because of his appearance, I know DS appears to many to be a spirited, lizard lovin', tree climbing little girl which is not only just fine, but considered "cool" by most he meets. When they are told he's a boy, it's easy to see their perceptions of his previous "spiritedness" change...









*sigh*

Hang in there, all.









Em


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I think a lot has to do with location too. Some areas aren't so anti-boy. Granted I didn't get a son until yesterday, but I am male and was a boy and have heard very few of these things. (did hear the "Girls rule and boys drool" on the playground but it was usually responded with "Nuh uh! Boys rule and _girls_ drool!").


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## apple_juice (Apr 17, 2008)

I was particularly disgusted when I was at a play group a few weeks back and my son (11 months) was playing with a girl the same age. The girl's mom started talking about how the little girls daddy wouldn't like her having a boyfriend now or ever and went on to talk about how he is already planning the "I'm gonna kill you if you touch my daughter talk" for her future boyfriends.

I was pretty disgusted that because he is a boy he is already labeled as a bad and just out to get what he wants. He is just a baby.

I also hate when people put their gender issues on my baby. If they have something to say about a colour or a toy I tell them to keep their gender issues off my baby.

That being said it must be hard when girls don't fit or want to fit the mold that our society has created for them. I think it goes both ways. There is too much pressure right out of the womb for girls to be "girls" and boys to be "boys".


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

I have experienced this through my ds, it's horrible, there is one woman in particular that dislikes my son just because he's a boy, I have to tell him to steer clear of her, she has 3 daughters and the thing that gets me is that her youngest is really a terror, it's all about the child and not what sex they are.


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## vilaura (Jun 11, 2008)

Congratulations MusicianDad!!!







:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I have girls and a boy, and honestly, have not experienced what many of your describe.

I do hear the 'you have your hands full' thing fairly often, and I find it completely fine. Cos I guess I do have my hands full.







Three kids, a busy life, homeschooling.... yep, my hands are full. And having a climbing, noisy, crazy 3 yo boy adds to that.

Maybe I don't take offense too easily, but comments like this never bother me. Nor do ones about boyfriends etc with toddlers. I just smile and move on. It's just no biggie to me.

It's funny, because I said this on mdc when I had just girls, and was told 'just you wait, if you have a boy you'll understand.' But now I've had a boy for almost four years, I still don't understand.

Maybe it's where I live, or maybe it's just that it doesn't bother me. I don't know, but I wouldn't even care if someone referred to my little boy as noise covered with dirt - because half the time, that's what he is. (and so are my girls.







)


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Congratulations, MusicianDad!

Oh, yeah. I'm not even going to try and figure out whether people think I have my hands full because I have 4 kids or because 75% of them are male, (and yes, my girl is way harder to parent.) It's the constant, constant expectations.
Clothing: covered in pockets, giraffes and truly offensive slogans. I'm a little monster. Well, no, I'm not a mummy monster so I'm not genetically able to birth little monsters, that isn't one of my superpowers and evolution doesn't work that fast. Watch out, here comes trouble. Well, no, that doesn't work so well either. And so on.
David and Goliath and the whole "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" crap.
School systems, especially over here, are set up to have parents believe that because your typical 5yo boy does not, cannot, will not, sees no point in sitting still for an hour then there's something wrong with them, but does not believe that there is something wrong with the 50% of the class who do.
The one that really bugged me though: one of the birthday parties DS1 has been invited to since moving down here was a tank-driving day. Cool, huh? Dress your kids up like minisoldiers, have them run around a field covering themselves in mud and driving in tanks and military vehicles, both boys and girls- which was great until the same kid started making Alex's life a misery calling him cissy and queer and "so gay" and a load of really offensive stuff that's suggesting this 9yo really believes that little boys have to be macho man. Whatever







:. There's one of those two boys who has a real problem, and I really don't think it's mine. (They're both 9, btw.) Poor kid.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
I'm looking at 2 different hand-painted signs about 3 feet apart. The first is written in BLUE and says:

Then my eye goes towards the other sign with PINK paint:


I am not sure which is more nauseous. But I'd much rather be a noise with dirt on it than a giggle in any coating.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

As a feminist, I was pretty much ready from the first ultrasound to defend my daughter from restrictive gender roles.
But I have been surprised by how unnecessary that has been. My daughter is very active and agile but it's usually considered cool for her to run faster than the boys.
My son on the other hand has been the target of a lot of rude remarks for doing ballet and oddly enough, for being well-behaved. Often when his behavior is praised in public, other parents whose sons were not praised, will respond with something along the lines of 'oh my son couldn't get along with girls/say please and thank you/sit politely/read above grade level/whatever F just did. He is ALL BOY.' I get so sick of the implication that because my son is creative, sweet, and bright, that makes him somehow neuter. Sometimes I respond that he is mostly boy, part kangaroo or something silly like that but I would really rather just call them on their sexism and be done with it. It would make sitting in waiting rooms every week with these women pretty awkward though. I feel sorry for everyone involved. Gender role dichotomies hurt boys AND girls. And I am pretty convinced that all kids, no matter how ALL BOY they are or are not, are harmed by hearing these sorts of remarks.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

What bothers me is the sexual steriotypes. If I had a girl who liked to do all 'boy' labled type things (like play in mud, climb in trees, etc) - I would not get any negative comments about it. In fact, it might get praise such as 'She is going to be so strong!'...etc...
But I happen to have a very sensitive boy. He in fact, does not like getting mud on him (cries/screams if he does) and prefers to hug trees and talk to them (bless him!)...He also loves the colour pink, etc...And what do I get? Jokes about how he is going to be gay!!! WTF?!... (and this is from friends!)...I personally do not find it funny.

I also hate the attitude of 'suck it up! - Be a man'. The way boys and girls are treated differently from day one about their emotions.

I actually have a theory about this.
You know how men get 'man flu'? Like they overexaggerate any illness whilst woman tend to move on (we might be ill but we still have to take care of the children, take care of the house, go to work, etc)...I think this is their way of making up their lost affections in childhood because of the countless times they were expected to 'suck it up' and 'be a man'. (does that make sense? lol...It does to me hehe)


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

This attitude is often carried into adult with the comments about "Men" with the head shake, or just considering all men to be inept at anything except those tasks requiring power tools or whatever.

I've seen a lot of people consider the fathers of their children to be second rate, not worth listening to, and not even "allowed" to be alone with their own children.

The best I can hope for is that one day, DS will pick a partner who treats him like an equal. The minute she rolls her eyes and says "Men" to me, I will officially become "That" MIL.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Layne: I feel sorry for everyone involved. Gender role dichotomies hurt boys AND girls. And I am pretty convinced that all kids, no matter how ALL BOY they are or are not, are harmed by hearing these sorts of remarks.
Yes, I couldn't agree more. They DO hurt boys and girls. Men and woman. Societies. The world. The situation pains me because I do have a son and I feel a sense of _closeness of heart_ to boys.

If you are one of those people who it just "doesn't bother"....

well I guess that's what makes this world such a _special place_!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *layne* 
Gender role dichotomies hurt boys AND girls. And I am pretty convinced that all kids, no matter how ALL BOY they are or are not, are harmed by hearing these sorts of remarks.

Exactly. I have a daughter and two sons and I see/hear it all. Although my oldest son is mistaken for a girl almost 100% of the time like others have mentioned. He is beautiful and has long hair so obviously that equals girl.







If my youngest chooses to have long hair it will be the same. Already people are having to ask because he doesn't have the boy cut.

I've heard stupid and nasty things about having boys (the horror) and about having girls (the horror). But it is looked at as a positive when a girl does something considered 'boy' but it is not cool when boys do things considered 'girl' at all. Even my friends/family who consider themselves progressive and open minded think this way and it's quite offensive to me.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
I actually have a theory about this.
You know how men get 'man flu'? Like they overexaggerate any illness whilst woman tend to move on (we might be ill but we still have to take care of the children, take care of the house, go to work, etc)...I think this is their way of making up their lost affections in childhood because of the countless times they were expected to 'suck it up' and 'be a man'. (does that make sense? lol...It does to me hehe)

Oh man, I would rather take care of four sick kids than DH when he is sick. However, I don't think DH was ever told to suck it up and be a man, BUT I can see the lack of affection from other areas. (his parents are strange.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
I've seen a lot of people consider the fathers of their children to be second rate, not worth listening to, and not even "allowed" to be alone with their own children.

I don't know if this is what you are talking about, but I don't like DH to take the kids out to the store or what not until they are old enough to follow on their own, or know to find a store employee and their dad's name should they get lost. dh is often oblivious. And I don't think this is because he is a man, I won't let MIL take my kids for the same reason. So there could be other reasons mom's don't want dads to take the kids off by themselves that have nothing to do with them being men.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
If you are one of those people who it just "doesn't bother"....

well I guess that's what makes this world such a _special place_!

This is the second time you have made a comment suggestion that those of us who don't see this type of treatment either "don't have eyes" or it "just doesn't bother us." Isn't it possible that not everyone experiences this?


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
IMaybe it's where I live, or maybe it's just that it doesn't bother me. I don't know, but I wouldn't even care if someone referred to my little boy as noise covered with dirt - because half the time, that's what he is.

mine too! he's a "noise covered with dirt" for sure! i can see how it seems insulting next to the girl quote about sunshine etc. though.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

insulting boys to empower girls is not the best way to create change but i think that the girl power stuff is just a backlash against our "man's world." it's a (feeble) attempt at teaching girls to be proud of being girls and to teach them to never consider themselves as "below" boys/men. it's a shame it's not done in a better way but nothing in this world is ever done perfectly.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

I have one of each and have heard that both are the hardest gender to raise, and insulting things about both.
No. It doesn't bother me to the point that I'm going to get all worked up and in someone's face. Sorry. Not my thing.
I'm the one raising these kids, there will always be stupid people out there. The best I can do is give my kids the guidance and acceptance they need at home to handle the stupidity that is bound to come their way, regardless of which gender they are.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
mine too! he's a "noise covered with dirt" for sure! i can see how it seems insulting next to the girl quote about sunshine etc. though.

I was more insulted by the girl comment!!







all my kids are dirt covered noises!

I have noticed this strange dual attitude towards boys though. They're expected to be trouble "boys will be boys" and all, but if they can't be attentive "like girls" in class, they get medicated. It makes no sense to me.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I admit I have told my dh to "suck it up princess" but not a little boy.








:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
You know whats been bothering me for awhile? Girls clothing. No, seriously, Im all for cute slogans like "girl power" thats fine. Its the ones that say "Boys are stupid" "I hate boys" things like that. And in small girls sizes. like for five year olds. I cant imagine my five year old boy knowing how to deal with that.

Those make me so sad


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee* 
My DS as well. And because of his appearance, I know DS appears to many to be a spirited, lizard lovin', tree climbing little girl which is not only just fine, but considered "cool" by most he meets. When they are told he's a boy, it's easy to see their perceptions of his previous "spiritedness" change...









*sigh*

Hang in there, all.









Em


My youngest ds is almost universally mistaken for a girl (long hair, frquently wears DDs hand me downs because he likes purple and flowers and butterflies, etc) and I see the shift immediately when I tell people he's a boy, too. When he's climbing something high and people assume he's a girl, we hear a lot of "Wow, she's so brave and adventurous! That's great!" When people realize he's a boy, it shifts to "You have your hands full" and "Looks like he's a troublemaker!" When people think he's a girl, there's a lot of concern from other parents at the playground if he trips and falls, while people don't give him a second glance when they know he's male. We get "She's beautiful" when they think he's a girl and "When is your mom going to cut your hair?" when they know he's a boy. It's really very strange. I don't think it's necessarily worse for boys, though. I mean, an adventurous, climbing little girl shouldn't be something to marvel at. A little girl shouldn't only ever be complimented on her looks. People shouldn't be treating little girls like delicate flowers and making a big deal about tripping on the playground if the little girl is unfazed. There are ridiculous stereotypes on both sides.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chimpmandee* 
ETA: To the other mothers of boys who feel like you have never experienced this attitude, have you never had a negative reaction to people even finding out you have boys? i.e. Someone asks if you have kids, you respond, yes two boys, and you get the "oh lordy!" and "you have your hands full!" and "better you than me!" or my personal favorite "good LUCK with THAT!" in a horribly sarcastic tone. I want to smack people - they are putting down my sons, and they think it's acceptable for them to do so.

I've had those exact same types of comments. Thing is, I have 3 girls. I don't think this is so much about boys being treated worse than girls, or vice versa. I think this is really about children, in general, being treated as sub-human, as not having feelings, not being worth consideration, etc.

I think this is also regional. I see differences from where I live (Chicagoland) and when I bring my family to NYC to visit my MIL.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I _love_ the "boy: a noise with dirt on it"! That just screams little boy to me, in a wonderful way.

Of course not all boys like to get dirty or be noisy....but many do!

Now, "girl: a giggle wrapped in sunshine"....I've not really met that little girl, lol. My little girl certainly isn't that girl, that is for sure!









"Suck it up, princess" said to an upset boy seems more demeaning of _girls_ than boys to me. Yes, it is meant as an insult to that boy, but what it is _really_ saying is that the visibly upset boy is acting like a _girl_, and that is inferior to being a boy.

All the "boys/girls rule, girls/boys drool" just don't bother me. Do they really bother kids, or just the adults?


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Maybe you could be more specific? I am the mother of boys and most of my friends have boys. I have never seen any of these children treated as "sub human."

I am still a little mystified as to the meaning of the OP's post also. I have _one_ boy and he has only ever been treated with respect as far as I know.

Quote:

_All the "boys/girls rule, girls/boys drool" just don't bother me. Do they really bother kids, or just the adults?_
It doesn't bother me either, and I am almost certain it would be water off my son's back. But AFAIK, he hasn't encountered that kind of taunting at school anyway.


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

I know what you mean, but it seems to come from a child's parents more often than anyone else. As a nanny to lots of boys over the years, I've definitely seen it. When N was almost a year old, he LOVED to watch the cleaning lady come and would try to "help" with the broom or the vacuum or the duster. His mom wanted to get him toy cleaning supplies (like a mini broom) and his dad said "No way is MY son getting a broom for his birthday!" N's dad also frequently told him not to cry (he was a BABY, literally) and didn't give as many hugs to his son as his daughter. N was the sweetest, most calm baby I knew, yet his dad always called him whiny or a cry baby or something. It was ridiculous.

It is similar with L (though not as bad). As a baby (6-12 months) his fave thing to do was empty my purse one item at a time, play with my mini brush and anything else he found interesting. His dad suggested getting him a bag of his own little nick knacks and his mom replied "You are NOT getting my son a purse."









I also have friends that have only one gender. One fam has 4 girls, they are always told how sweet and beautiful all their daughters are and how lucky they are. One fam has 4 boys and are always told "you're a saint!" or "I don't know how you take care of so many boys!" or "wow, you must really need a break!" etc. In reality, her four crazy and wild boys are way easier to take care of than families with both genders, or all girls (dh and I used to babysit a lot).


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
....it sickens me daily, in countless interactions with random people.

What is wrong with people??? The emotional cruelty that they must endure, right from Day 1 in the hospital, until they are out on their own is disgusting and unbelievable. what a sick world this is. grrrrrrrrrr.

rant over.

Yikes! Really? I'm so sorry for the place you live... it sounds terrible. Would you care to share what happened to you & your children? Because your statement is really strong, yet quite vague, and based on the responses, I think some folks are confused, and concerned.

Personally, I can say both my children, boy & girl, have overwhelmingly been treated well by all around them.

I'm honestly curious about your experience.


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
I've heard stupid and nasty things about having boys (the horror) and about having girls (the horror). But it is looked at as a positive when a girl does something considered 'boy' but it is not cool when boys do things considered 'girl' at all. Even my friends/family who consider themselves progressive and open minded think this way and it's quite offensive to me.

I totally agree with this. What's funny to me is that most of the comments I've read on this thread that refer to this double standard don't have a problem with girls being praised extravagantly for stereotypically "boyish" behavior; as if this half of the phenomenon wasn't harmful to girls.

It's definitely unfair to boys when they get a smackdown for stereotypically "girlish" behavior, but it's also pretty harmful, I think, when people have exaggeratedly shocked and delighted positive reactions to my DD climbing trees, catching frogs, etc. etc. That teaches her that all things typically associated with males must be good, and all things typically associated with females must be bad. Shortcut to internalized sexism, anyone?


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

What bugs me is how stupid boys and men are made out to be. Just watch network tv for half an hour and you'll see it countless time, on commericals, sitcoms, etc. Men are made to look like big bumbling idiots and their wives/mothers/neighbors swoop in to save the day.

In my family, boys are much more cherished than girls, but not like you might imagine. The boys in our family are spoiled senseless. They are treated like they don't know anything and are totally helpless (even into adulthood.) Anyone who has a boy in my family is showered with affections and the boys are just totally coddled to death as far as toys, etc. BUT these same people don't give boys any emotional support at all, and expect them to "grow up" really fast. My nephew (age 3) is really into "boy" things like wrestling, hunting, etc and if he gets hurt, its so heartbreaking to watch him try to hold back tears. i had never seen a child hold back tears till my nephew. he wasn't always like that, just since he was around 2 or so.
[oh yeah and this same family absolutely berated me for not circumcising my son. my mom said 'oh, he's a boy, he can handle it.' what!?]

After 3 girls, we recently had our first boy and it makes me want to barf how my family just melts over him but completely ignored my girls at that age (and still do to some extent.) I know they will hit him with the "grow up, pal, boys don't cry" thing in a few short years. I hope I can save him from it.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I think it's reactionary.


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## Ellen Griswold (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
What bugs me is how stupid boys and men are made out to be. Just watch network tv for half an hour and you'll see it countless time, on commericals, sitcoms, etc. Men are made to look like big bumbling idiots and their wives/mothers/neighbors swoop in to save the day.


Exactly. My dh frequently complains that the adult white male is the only "safe" person to make fun of these days. It isn't fair to men and it isn't fair to boys to see this as their role model.

Slightly OT, but dh is a middle school teacher and the prevailing attitude around here, from kids and adults, is that doing well in school is feminine.

Yikes!


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I think a lot has to do with location too. Some areas aren't so anti-boy. Granted I didn't get a son until yesterday, but I am male and was a boy and have heard very few of these things. (did hear the "Girls rule and boys drool" on the playground but it was usually responded with "Nuh uh! Boys rule and _girls_ drool!").

Congratulations MusicianDad!









Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bec* 
I don't think this is so much about boys being treated worse than girls, or vice versa. I think this is really about children, in general, being treated as sub-human, as not having feelings, not being worth consideration, etc.

SO TRUE! It shouldn't happen to any child, but I don't think boys have the corner on being treated as second class citizens.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellen Griswold* 
My dh frequently complains that the adult white male is the only "safe" person to make fun of these days.

dear god, I hope he's joking


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

I have two boys and have already gotten the "hands full" comments.
I always just say "It's the best kind of hands full." And that I wouldn't trade it for anything.

There are things that bother me on both side of the gender stereotypes. I think baby girls get a bad rap too. I have seen shirts that say "future diva" or "drama queen"


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

ok, several people want me to site examples. I have tons and will add to this thread as I expierence them. I did not say that ALL boys are treated in a consistently crappy manner, just an awful lot. Too many. But not my son (by me anyway). Yes, girls have their share of bad treatment too, but I feel more sympathy for boys on this issue.

2 stories that come to mind have to do with neighbors of mine. 2 different families.

The first boy, let's call him Gordon, is 9. He confided to me that his dad pulls his lose teeth out with pliers. I could tell he wasn't happy about it, that it was weighing on his mind somehow. When I reacted in disbelif and shock, he tried to play it down by saying "it's not so bad". Would his dad have done this to his daughter? Gordon is an only child. How would you feel if the story was about a girl instead of Gordon?

The 2nd story is about a boy who is 7. Lives down the block. I was out in the neighborhood supervising my 7 year old son while he was riding his bike. The other boy, Gavin, was on his bike too. He hit the curb and flew off over this 2 foot stone wall. He was clearly hurt, down and crying. I went to him and bent over to ask him what got hurt. Another kid went to get his Dad. When Dad comes out (BTW, I do not know this guy) he sees me bent over talking with his son. He walks over to us with a VERY mean look on his face. I back off about 4 feet. He stands next to his kid (who is still on the ground crying) and talks to him in a standing position. He never once acknowledged me or even thanked me for my concern. In fact it became clear to me that he was angry at me??? When he asked his kid to tell him what happened, I kind of assisted the kid with the story (because he was crying). Dad turned his head to me and had this scary look on his face. Now I have no idea what he was thinking while I was talking but if I had to guess, it looked something like _"did I ask *you* for your opinion...get the fu*k away from my kid" kind of expression._

I backed off and was really startled by the whole encounter with him. After about 5 minutes he walks back to his house. I felt that my gesture of kindness towards his young child was very *unwanted*. He took great care not to look at me at all (except for that minute while I was talking, and even then he wasn't looking me in the eye). WTF??

Re: TV. I too get tired of that lame TV "humor" about men. When you are watching TV in the future, start to notice how often *people find it funny* when men are in pain, hurt, or unhappy. I am not talking about an isolated instance here. really. It's really disturbing to see it woven into so many stories, commercials, etc...

I have so many more stories. I'll tell them all. I need a place to put this _stuff_ I see. I have to purge it - and yes, it DOES bother ME when people mistreat other people. I guess I think it's unfair.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 

All the "boys/girls rule, girls/boys drool" just don't bother me. Do they really bother kids, or just the adults?

They bother MY kids. My son can read and does not like them at all. They hurt his feelings.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004* 
SO TRUE! It shouldn't happen to any child, but I don't think boys have the corner on being treated as second class citizens.

dear god, I hope he's joking

I don't think it has to be onesided to be wrong. It is a double edged sword. When children are expected to check what's in their pants before crying, climbing, wrestling, reading, being polite, being impolite and/or any other of the broad range of natural human behaviors, it hurts them. And to the dads who make remarks about my son being in ballet, I have in the past come back with 'oh yeah? well he'll be lifting your daughter by the butt in ten years.' if my own kids were not around to hear it, but the problem is that so many parents feel totally comfortable spreading their sexist bs in front of bother my daughter AND my son.
And then we wonder why so many boys are so poorly socialized/afraid of being called "sissies" or worse/unable to express emotions except through violence?!
Part of making a world where women are safe from abuse and rape is raising men who are able to transcend the old power structures and I do not see that happening as fast as I would have hoped. One more reason to homeschool I guess.
It is the only way I have found to shelter my kids from other parents' prejudices.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I too wonder about this


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
Yes, girls have their share of bad treatment too, but I feel more sympathy for boys on this issue.

Why?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
How would you feel if the story was about a girl instead of Gordon?

The same. Exactly the same. To me, this is an example of serious mistreatment of a child, but there isn't any evidence that the abuse was done BECAUSE he was a boy. Same with the second scenario- sounds like kind of a neglectful and psycho Dad, but do you think such a weirdo would have suddenly become an adequate parent if he was dealing with a girl? I doubt it. Neither of those scenarios were explicitly tied in to the child's gender. Abuse and mistreatment, as far as I know, afflict boys and girls equally.


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## emmaegbert (Sep 14, 2004)

I have one son (and we are expecting a ?? this spring). He likes some supposedly girlie stuff and its fine with us, he's super active and adventurous, also fine with us, he's smart, funny, and delightful, which I hope would be fine by anyone. But all along its been like a textbook example of gender assumptions-- since birth he's praised for being so "strong" and "energetic"... never called "pretty" or "sweet" (well, except by us)... he's "all boy" (except, apparently, when he's cooking, or helping hang up laundry, when he's "helping his mom" as if though he and his dad don't eat or need clean clothes, grr). I was scrupulous about dressing him in a non-gendered way as a baby, but that the first question people then ask- and gosh, they act like I'll be offended if they "guess" wrong (come on people, I was the one who dressed him like that, obviously I'm not hung up about it). I haven't really heard overtly negative comments about him for being a boy, but even the "positive" stuff grates on me. Its like people actually only see in his stereotypically male behaviors, and are blind to the full range of his potential and personality. Now that he's growing his hair long (he wants it to be "down my back, like a girl"), he'll actually ask adults if they like his hair when he hears them compliment a girl friend on hers...

What I really hate is the ultra-conservative, cultural-backlash gender normativity of EVERYTHING for kids, it makes me want to throw up. I think its just as bad for the girls, and frankly in some ways more insidious. I go *so* out of my way to find clothing, toys, not to mention a CARSEAT or TOOTHBRUSH that isn't "boy" or "girl". It all makes me sick. I am convinced that if #2 is a girl I will do the same, and it won't suddenly be all pink frills and satin bows.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hattifattener* 
t's definitely unfair to boys when they get a smackdown for stereotypically "girlish" behavior, but it's also pretty harmful, I think, when people have exaggeratedly shocked and delighted positive reactions to my DD climbing trees, catching frogs, etc. etc. That teaches her that all things typically associated with males must be good, and all things typically associated with females must be bad. Shortcut to internalized sexism, anyone?

Yes exactly.

(and my son is obsessed with the hattifatteners...)


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hattifattener* 
The same. Exactly the same. To me, this is an example of serious mistreatment of a child, but there isn't any evidence that the abuse was done BECAUSE he was a boy. Same with the second scenario- sounds like kind of a neglectful and psycho Dad, but do you think such a weirdo would have suddenly become an adequate parent if he was dealing with a girl? I doubt it. Neither of those scenarios were explicitly tied in to the child's gender. Abuse and mistreatment, as far as I know, afflict boys and girls equally.









:


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I feel more sympathies for the boys because there are fewer boys/male advocates....and when you try to advocate you are belittled and told you are misogamist.

If you say their is a boy crisis in schooled it is denied.... people look at test. Your being anti-girl/feminist/misogamist for speaking up or agreeing there might be a boy crisis. Look at who is dropping out. It ignores the rates of autism, LD's, and ADD in boys

leading to this-----

There was a post on toxic stuff how it effects boys. The last post on this board about the Disappearing Male mention about being tired of all the reports about how toxic stuff effecting male....I say about darn time. I knew about earlier puberty years ago but nothing about the boy.

Their is a double standard on male victim of sex abuse. You look at how it is reported. They talk about the woman (perp) mental state. Why emotionally she did it. There is undertones of well the boy gained something. Few people question if these double standards/attitude is why boys don't speak up and why many boys have the attitude they have about sex.

The complete denial that teen boys like girls and think about girls for more than sex objects. Denial of how important relationships are to boys http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...376235,00.html

The so little focus on mens/boys health....in every race men die before women yet there isn't a push to educate and make the medical facilities "male friendly" (note--I think the medical system needs to improve for all not just one gender. I would like to see more activism for male health.) The lack of information on what is normal about male growth from birth, to puberty, to old age.

If you say wait a minute. Lets look at things differently. Why are so many boys turning into murders, rapist, thugs, drug dealers, et What is happening and why are they turning out this way. There is more than one factor. Yes men don't need to do these things but I think we need to look at why men do and how they ended up there. I think we will find statically more physical and sexual abuse of boys than currently reported---It is stuff that isn't talked about. Isn't allowed to (seeing some progress though). It is also seen as improvement or they gain something from it.

The early labeling boys sex offenders. Yes, there is something wrong with pres-schoolers and 6 year olds being labels as sex offenders and harassers. Many of those situation do need discipline but not the burden of that label. Some of these situation boys are getting punishment instead of help. Natural normal behaviors for girls and boys are being labeled sexually deviant. Questioning how we deal with these situation and the un-intended message that is sent is wrong. It is wrong for wanting the teaching to be more gender neutral fashion. Empowering both genders to speak up. Teaching both genders how they can be sex harrassers and creating a sexually hostile enviroment. From why I have seen of the world I think ignoring same sex sexual harrassment worses opposite gender harrassment. Same sex does not mean homesexual.

*************I have to add qualifier--I am talking our culture. Each culture has different set of problems.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Granted I didn't get a son until yesterday...

Congratulations on your new son!







:

I am a mom of 3 boys with another boy on the way. I have one daughter. Much of my family just loves and adores my daughter while simultaneously ignoring my sons. It makes me so sad. Thankfully I love and adore all of my children, regardless of their gender. I find that my boys give the tightest hugs and the warmest hand squeezes and secret whispered "I love yous". My daughter would rather help me with every little household task and invite me to her room for tea. The way they express their love is different, but no less sweet.

Boys ARE sweet and awesome. And yes, sometimes noisy and dirty, but my daughter is too.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
If you say wait a minute. Lets look at things differently. Why are so many boys turning into murders, rapist, thugs, drug dealers, et What is happening and why are they turning out this way. There is more than one factor. Yes men don't need to do these things but I think we need to look at why men do and how they ended up there. I think we will find statically more physical and sexual abuse of boys than currently reported---It is stuff that isn't talked about. Isn't allowed to (seeing some progress though). It is also seen as improvement or they gain something from it.
.

Yes, and I have read somewhere that something like 98% of male prisoners (don't quote me on the statistics) never had a father or father figure in their life and if they did they hated him. I read an article once about a prison that offered card making for Mother's Day and every single prisoner showed up to make a card for his mother or mother figure. It was so successful that they decided to do the same for Father's Day. Not a single prisoner was interested in making a card for their father, and when asked why, many of the prisoners had some colorful words to say about their father's.

A positive male role model is very important for all boys.

Just some food for thought.


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## kbs2008 (Nov 15, 2008)

I also woder why this happen


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital* 

I am a mom of 3 boys with another boy on the way. I have one daughter. Much of my family just loves and adores my daughter while simultaneously ignoring my sons. It makes me so sad. Thankfully I love and adore all of my children, regardless of their gender. I find that my boys give the tightest hugs and the warmest hand squeezes and secret whispered "I love yous". My daughter would rather help me with every little household task and invite me to her room for tea. The way they express their love is different, but no less sweet.

Boys ARE sweet and awesome. And yes, sometimes noisy and dirty, but my daughter is too.

I wonder though about this. I've heard of families where there are girls and one boy, and the boy is spoiled and the girls ignored by family. I think it just depends upon the preferences (or prejudices) of the family, and is not something that happens more to one gender than another.

I live in a pretty progressive place, so don't hear much gender stuff. Although honestly, it doesn't bother me too much anyway, unless it's cruel or demeaning.

I kept being told when I had two girls that if/when I had a boy I'd feel differently, but ds turns 4 next week, and I've not experienced anything that makes me feel differently. Sure, there are shirts in stores for girls and for boys that make me







, but I don't find it balanced in favor of one gender or another. I wouldn't dress my girls in a lot of stuff I see in stores, but likewise, I wouldnt dress ds in a lot of boy's stuff either.

I don't think I"m failing to see sexism, but I dont' see it as treating my ds as sub-human. Just some traditional expectations that some people hold, but that my family can just choose to reject and ignore.


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## psychethemuse (May 13, 2008)

Ugh. Yesterday I was at a birthday party for a little boy who was turning one and one of the other guests (a male) kept saying really offensive things. He acted like the present of a push toy vacuum cleaner was going to turn the boy into a sissy. When the baby's mom let him play with a dollar that came in a card, the man made a comment about the boy being a money grubber (and somehow managed to make it sound like he was putting women down again). And when it was time for cake, the man was absolutely disgusted with the fact that the baby ate the cake neatly. He practically called him effeminate.

I felt so sorry for that man's wife, daughters, and especially his 16 month son.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

What about what is expected of females in our society?

I don't see this with my boys but I **do** see this happening with girls. Girls are expected to be mild mannered, wear dresses when they need to, be quiet, to not be rough during play, wear their hair long or pretty. I'm part of a homeschool community and I see a lot of this around me so maybe I see it more because of my homeschool group. But why is it that girls are supposed to be the soft, quiet ones and boys are expected to always be...well...boys? and whatever that entails.

My 6 yr old daughter (very short hair, very hyper, likes to climb, yell & rough house) has always acted more like a boy than a girl most of her life and I get quiet embarassed in social situations when people scoff at me because my little angel isn't acting like a little angel.







I was the type of little girl that was quiet, timid, let everyone tell her what to do so I prefer seeing little girls like my DD who are outgoing and don't let anyone push them around.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital* 
Much of my family just loves and adores my daughter while simultaneously ignoring my sons. It makes me so sad. Thankfully I love and adore all of my children, regardless of their gender.

I don't see this so much with my children. I see the boys getting favored more because they are quiet and well mannered. My DD is not the same as my boys are. She gets attention but the boys get it more than she does because I think people feel they need it more since they're quiet. However, DD can hold her own and everyone in the family knows that by now.


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## Love_My_Babies (May 21, 2007)

I have been grappling with these issues for some time. A great read on the subject is Raising Cain, The Emotional Life of Boys. You can read snipits of it on the PBS parent site.

I have three boys ages three and under, and I have had a lot of comments from people. Each time I was pregnant, people would assume we were trying for a girl. They were shocked when they found out that gender didn't matter to me, and I just wanted a healthy baby. Now that I have three boys, people wish me luck and tell me I have my hands full. I feel sorry for those people because they haven't enjoyed the pure love, energy and enthusiasim for life that these three boys bring us. So, I simply say, "Yes, three boys. Aren't I lucky!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtokea* 
Oh yes, I have experienced this. The worst one I have ever heard is a father telling his little boy "suck it up, princess"









I think if you rewind to this man's own childhood there was a dominant male figure saying these things and worse to him. So, this is the only way this man knows how to handle the situation.

Our oldest is very sensitive and loving, and he went through a bought of separation anxiety with me specifically shortly after my second son was born. One day, ds wanted me and was crying. DH told him "Get over it, Nancy Boy." Needless to say, DH and I had a long talk later that day. I asked him why he said it. He was feeling rejected and immediately emotionally reverted to the way he was raised. He was abused when he showed emotion. Clearly the term "Nancy Boy" is not a current one, so that came from someone calling him that as a child. He doesn't want to repeat that cycle. But, the human mind can play tricks on you when you are under stress and have a lot of emotion. He hasn't done anything like that since, and he now shows special attention to the boys when they need hugs and kisses.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I feel badly for boys but I also feel badly for girls too. Having a girl, I was told she was "flirting" when she smiled, told that she was going to "break hearts" because she is so "pretty" and that daddy better "keep her locked in her room until she is 25" (can anyone say inappropriate mature/sexual references???). I have been told that she is "too" -- rambunctious, opinionated, etc -- I have had mothers tell their boys to be gentle with my daughter because "we need to be gentle with the girls" -- even though my daughter was having a great time (and the boy was just being a kid, nothing rough or mean).

I have had my daughter told that she is doing a "great job of being pretty" (WTF????) and a million other references in public and even with friends reducing her worth to nothing more than a pretty li'l picture of what they think a girl should be (however unintentional in some instances).

So, I do feel for boys -- but I think the people who are like the people you all are describing, are typically similar regarding girls as well in their gender stereotyping and expectation. Of coure I think it is wrong in both instances.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *layne* 
I don't think it has to be onesided to be wrong. It is a double edged sword. When children are expected to check what's in their pants before crying, climbing, wrestling, reading, being polite, being impolite and/or any other of the broad range of natural human behaviors, it hurts them. And to the dads who make remarks about my son being in ballet, I have in the past come back with 'oh yeah? well he'll be lifting your daughter by the butt in ten years.' if my own kids were not around to hear it, but the problem is that so many parents feel totally comfortable spreading their sexist bs in front of bother my daughter AND my son.
And then we wonder why so many boys are so poorly socialized/afraid of being called "sissies" or worse/unable to express emotions except through violence?!
Part of making a world where women are safe from abuse and rape is raising men who are able to transcend the old power structures and I do not see that happening as fast as I would have hoped. One more reason to homeschool I guess.
It is the only way I have found to shelter my kids from other parents' prejudices.


I agree. Having a girl and boys I get the 'pleasure' of seeing both sides of that sword. And frankly is sucks all around. It's really hard to escape because everyone I know makes comments that are unintentionally harmful to our children in regards to gender stereotyping. I wish children could just be children. I have tried my hardest to create that in my own home but we do not live in isolation so my children have been exposed to it and harmed by it like all children have (like all of us have).

My daughter is always getting old purses and things like that from our friends and family and it makes my older son feel like shit (I can see the hurt on his face







) because he also likes to play with purses and dress up clothes high heels and jewelry ect. I make a point of saying ds1 would love some too, lets split them up between dd and ds1. But it hurts me deep in my gut everytime it happens because I know it's killing a small part of who my son is, there's no way around that and I don't know how to completely protect him from it. People do not seem to take an obvious 'hint' either because they continue to do it. And I have plenty of stories on the flip side too.


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

IN truth, I think it's the flip side of girls must be little nice demure submissive things and boys must be aggressive tough emotionless machines. Really this mentality does no individual or society good. I think kids must be full people, regardless of gender, kwim?


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
ok, several people want me to site examples. I have tons and will add to this thread as I expierence them. I did not say that ALL boys are treated in a consistently crappy manner, just an awful lot. Too many. But not my son (by me anyway). Yes, girls have their share of bad treatment too, but I feel more sympathy for boys on this issue.

2 stories that come to mind have to do with neighbors of mine. 2 different families.

The first boy, let's call him Gordon, is 9. He confided to me that his dad pulls his lose teeth out with pliers. I could tell he wasn't happy about it, that it was weighing on his mind somehow. When I reacted in disbelif and shock, he tried to play it down by saying "it's not so bad". Would his dad have done this to his daughter? Gordon is an only child. How would you feel if the story was about a girl instead of Gordon?

The 2nd story is about a boy who is 7. Lives down the block. I was out in the neighborhood supervising my 7 year old son while he was riding his bike. The other boy, Gavin, was on his bike too. He hit the curb and flew off over this 2 foot stone wall. He was clearly hurt, down and crying. I went to him and bent over to ask him what got hurt. Another kid went to get his Dad. When Dad comes out (BTW, I do not know this guy) he sees me bent over talking with his son. He walks over to us with a VERY mean look on his face. I back off about 4 feet. He stands next to his kid (who is still on the ground crying) and talks to him in a standing position. He never once acknowledged me or even thanked me for my concern. In fact it became clear to me that he was angry at me??? When he asked his kid to tell him what happened, I kind of assisted the kid with the story (because he was crying). Dad turned his head to me and had this scary look on his face. Now I have no idea what he was thinking while I was talking but if I had to guess, it looked something like _"did I ask *you* for your opinion...get the fu*k away from my kid" kind of expression._

I backed off and was really startled by the whole encounter with him. After about 5 minutes he walks back to his house. I felt that my gesture of kindness towards his young child was very *unwanted*. He took great care not to look at me at all (except for that minute while I was talking, and even then he wasn't looking me in the eye). WTF??

Re: TV. I too get tired of that lame TV "humor" about men. When you are watching TV in the future, start to notice how often *people find it funny* when men are in pain, hurt, or unhappy. I am not talking about an isolated instance here. really. It's really disturbing to see it woven into so many stories, commercials, etc...

I have so many more stories. I'll tell them all. I need a place to put this _stuff_ I see. I have to purge it - and yes, it DOES bother ME when people mistreat other people. I guess I think it's unfair.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *hattifattener* 
The same. Exactly the same. To me, this is an example of serious mistreatment of a child, but there isn't any evidence that the abuse was done BECAUSE he was a boy. Same with the second scenario- sounds like kind of a neglectful and psycho Dad, but do you think such a weirdo would have suddenly become an adequate parent if he was dealing with a girl? I doubt it. Neither of those scenarios were explicitly tied in to the child's gender. Abuse and mistreatment, as far as I know, afflict boys and girls equally.

I agree hattifattener. It sounds more like poor parenting than specific targeting for being boys.
OP do you know that these parents are different with their girls if they have them? And even then we never know what happens behind closed doors do we?
I am not saying that there are not injustices to boys that occur, I just don't the examples you gave are gender specific.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I _love_
"Suck it up, princess" said to an upset boy seems more demeaning of _girls_ than boys to me. Yes, it is meant as an insult to that boy, but what it is _really_ saying is that the visibly upset boy is acting like a _girl_, and that is inferior to being a boy.


yes! thank you! i hate it when guys razz eachother, saying things like "you're such a girl" or "put down your purse", as though girls/women are lesser beings.


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
Re: TV. I too get tired of that lame TV "humor" about men. When you are watching TV in the future, start to notice how often *people find it funny* when men are in pain, hurt, or unhappy. I am not talking about an isolated instance here. really. It's really disturbing to see it woven into so many stories, commercials, etc...

I agree with you here. It is disturbing to me how many shows portrays fathers. Bumbling idiots that need their children to correct them, or stupid henpecked men that can't think for themselves.







:


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I don't see why anyone should have to live up to any preconceived expectations. Children are individuals. They should be free to be themselves and explore their personalities, likes & dislikes without the weight of all this expectation.

I guess the best we can do is to try to live this in our own homes/lives and stick up for our kids when needed or confronted by stereotypes, particularly stereotypes that contradicts the child's individual experiences or preferences.


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## Miss 1928 (Nov 12, 2007)

I have a daughter, just so you know that my comments are coming from someone with no experience of _having_ a boy. And, BTW, DH and I passionately wanted a girl and we did all that we could to try and conceive a girl. I, personally, felt that I would be better equiped to parent a girl.
This thread has been eye opening to me. (Maybe I'm one of those people who doesn't have any







...)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
What bugs me is how stupid boys and men are made out to be. Just watch network tv for half an hour and you'll see it countless time, on commericals, sitcoms, etc. Men are made to look like big bumbling idiots and their wives/mothers/neighbors swoop in to save the day.

Yes, but when (if ever...) women will have equal pay for equal work for then I'll start to get angry that men are used slightly more often as fodder for comic relief.

Please don't take my above opinion to mean that I believe that boys should be treated in the manner that many above posts have mentioned, like this one:

[....... family absolutely berated me for not circumcising my son. my mom said 'oh, he's a boy, he can handle it.' what!?]

Yeeeessshhh! Shocking! I'm sorry your mother said this to you, 3pink1blue.









No, I belive that _all_ children, regardless of their sex, should be nurtured and carressed so that they can grow up to be nurturing and caring.

A colleague and I were talking about our children a few weeks ago. --He has a 3 YO boy, my DD is 21 months.-- He said something to the effect of; "I don't know how you would discipline a girl, I mean, a boy you can hit, (














I don't think I would feel comfortable hitting a girl."







As soon as I was able to pick my jaw off the floor I started a tirade of







"No child should ever be hit ever! Why would you think it is ok to hit a boy but not a girl! It is not ever ok!!! EVER!!!"







(It is possible that he meant 'spank' and I got lost in the translation --this conversation was in Italian, but still, in my book, spanking is not OK either.) It just shocked me and made me so sad, because it is slightly indicative of how I see some people treating their children here. I suppose I was assuming it was an Italian thing, but after reading some of these posts, it happen all the world over. Makes me want to cry.

Back to whether I have eyes







or not: I have seen lots of, what I would certainly call abuse here in Italy, but I suppose I never really noticed if it was specifically directed toward boys. I've seen a mother call her 7 YO daughter "Bitch!" very angrily. I've seen mothers screaming at thier toddler boys to "Sit in your stroller and shut up!" (Please don't think that _all_ Italians are so harsh with their children, not all are, but I have seen much more impatience and rudeness toward children than I would've liked. I feel like I'm the only AP here.







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ryansma* 
....There are things that bother me on both side of the gender stereotypes. I think baby girls get a bad rap too. I have seen shirts that say "future diva" or "drama queen"









Well, DD had a shirt that read "Diva in training", but since I am an opera singer, for me "Diva" has a whold different connotation that it does for the average person. I would never buy a shirt that read something like "Boys stink!" to put on my DD. I find it way to offensive.

This has been a very interesting Thread to read and take part in. Thanks, OP.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love_My_Babies* 

I think if you rewind to this man's own childhood there was a dominant male figure saying these things and worse to him. So, this is the only way this man knows how to handle the situation.

At one time I use to agree it must have been the dominant male.......Not saying he doesn't play a part.

But I am questioning mom's role.

I have heard women say you need to beat them (boys) to make them strong.

I have heard this suck it up and don't be a wuss out of woman's mouth as much as mens mouth.

I have been told I am wrong and misogynist because I say it is not just dad or lack of dad. There are things we cannot change but we can change our own behavior. Change what we expect/desired traits in men so men don't think they have to live up to them.

I have been criticize when I say we need to look at DV differently, gender neutral. Men are looked at abusers. They get caught "theoretically" they get treatment anger management. What about women? When you treat and don't deny women abusers or "on the edge" then you help the kids also. SOME moms like SOME dads needs anger management, alcohol and drug counseling, and parenting education. When a woman abuse many times we ask why is she mentally ill at the end of her rope, et.....When men abuse he is a $%#$%%. We need to look at why? Sometimes it is social expectations, sometimes it is no parenting schools, sometimes no coping skills, sometimes it is mental illness. Treating people gender naturally and looking at why only helps the future. It can change social expectations which slowly betters the future for all genders.

I grew up with an physically abusive dad. My mom was mentally and verbally abusive. I ended up getting all this protections from my dad but nobody stopped my mom. There were (and are more) resources for my dad to get help. My mom's abuse goes unacknowledge, denied. So much blame is put on my dad that half the desease/perpatration goes untreated.

I am not saying demonize mom's but deal with DV gender nuturally. (It also would help in homosexual relationships).


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
I don't see why anyone should have to live up to any preconceived expectations. Children are individuals. They should be free to be themselves and explore their personalities, likes & dislikes without the weight of all this expectation.

I guess the best we can do is to try to live this in our own homes/lives and stick up for our kids when needed or confronted by stereotypes, particularly stereotypes that contradicts the child's individual experiences or preferences.









:


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

I think treating boys and girls differently based on gender is wrong. I have seen people deny the emotional well being and vulnerability of boys since I had my first ds 5 years ago.
I think most of us have gender assumptions that are hard to shake. For example, my boys love to wrestle and to me that's a "boy thing", though ofcourse it wouldn't be wrong or unnatural for a girl to like it either.

I live in a very progressive place and you'd think there would be way more of an effort at gender neutrality with children.
One recent example I can think of is a friend was talking about how glad she was that she had had a daughter, how she didn't think little boys were cute and how snuggly and sweet her daughter was and she would miss that if she had had a boy!








My boys are so snuggly that I get tired of them hugging me all the time. They are wild and love to run around (what kid doesn't?) but love hugs and always try to comfort me when I'm sad. If that isn't sweet, then what is?
And i know plenty of girls who are not into hugs or sharing sweet cuddling time with their mama. Too busy, too into doing other things...
When my second son was born I got a lot of sympathetic looks and words. I was so tired of it.
Each child is different and has their own unique things to offer to their family and society. let's let them be themselves regardless of gender!
And for crying out loud let's raise our sons to be emotionally intelligent and fullfilled individuals!

And those "boys are stupid" t shirts are sold at the gap. I've never seen them worn so hopefully they flopped. What an offensive idea!


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i'm a new mother of a boy, but long before he was in my life, i did notice a lot of negativity towards boys and men. it's really tragic.

during hawk's blessing, i had an interesting conversation with my aunt, who is a psychologist. she asked me to be sure to keep hawk out of school until he would be about 9 or 10. her reasoning was that boys develop differently than girls and are largely kiniesthetic learners.

and that in the institution of education, the need to move (in boys and girls) is seen as 'bad behavior' and systematically punished out of them one way or another. she felt that it was particularly hard on boys, because unlike girls (in general of course), they are less likely to "follow teacher" and more likely to explore on their own. this also leads to punishment.

in her mind and expertise, until the educational system takes into account active children, kinesthetic learners, and non-followers (or independent learners), it's better to keep children (girls adn boys, but particularly boys because, in general, they tend more to this tyle of learning as little ones) away from school and homeschool or find specialized alternative schools for them.

it was interseting, considering how school-focused that part of the family is. . .but when my aunt speaks, people listen. after hearing her say it, everyone is supporting homeschooling now.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
insulting boys to empower girls is not the best way to create change but i think that the girl power stuff is just a backlash against our "man's world." it's a (feeble) attempt at teaching girls to be proud of being girls and to teach them to never consider themselves as "below" boys/men. it's a shame it's not done in a better way but nothing in this world is ever done perfectly.









:

That's really what the "insulting boys" thing is all about. It's immature on the part of the adults who are passing on that attitude. But I think it's a backlash -- ineffective, but a backlash.

Bsides, being "treated like dirt" works both ways. How is it helpful to girls to assume they're all sunshine, sugar, and giggles? Isn't that just as harmful by reinforcing the notion of what it means to be a girl -- to be sweet, pretty, happy, etc??

The t-shirts are wrong and I wouldn't let my girls wear one because it's disrespectful to another human being. Use it as an opportunity to teach your kids about what is true and appropriate. With the other moms and adults you can gently open up a conversation about it, as well. Most people probably haven't considered the ramifications of insulting boys.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 







:

Use it as an opportunity to teach your kids about what is true and appropriate. With the other moms and adults you can gently open up a conversation about it, as well. Most people probably haven't considered the ramifications of insulting boys.

so true. we can raise a different generation of boys and girls. that might lead us toward true equality.
also, you're right. it is best to gently try to educate others. they might learn something if we find the right moments to bring up the topic. sometimes just raising your beliefs in conversation, very nonchalantly, can make ppl think and perhaps change their minds.
perhaps we can raise a new generation and raise awareness!


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I have two boys, I can't say I get too much of the negative boy stuff. Maybe I'm just lucky. My boys both get confused for girls a lot, I'm not sure why, a hairdresser mentioned yesterday (just matter of factly) that they have finer features and not very masculine, but that's okay with me. We do generally buy boyish clothes, my kids really like clothes with animals on them, but I have recently picked out a couple of onesies from the girls section, one with a little pumpkin on it and one with a christmas cross stitch. No one has batted an eye...maybe because they think he's a girl?? lol

I am however prepared to deal with the negative boy stuff. Any coach who has the cajones to tell my little guy to suck it up will face my wrath. DH is prepared to back me up on this as well, since he's more familiar with that turf. I am prepared for the unofficial diagnosis of ADD from armchair psychologists because I have an active preschooler-so far my first is in a small school and while an active little monkey has been thriving.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Ok I will put my flame retardant suit on for this question&#8230;..

Can someone explain what is wrong with dressing boys in "boy" colors? DS does not have pink or purple clothing. He mainly has brown, blue, grey, green, red and black. I don't see the big deal that he isn't wearing pink?

If I had a girl, I would dress her in reds, purples, greens, yellows, etc. (I don't personally like pink.) I would probably not buy her many "boy" colors and I would shop in the "girl" section at the store.

I just can't seem to understand where this thread is coming from on that issue









I guess I'm just not getting it.

I do want to say that I don't like hearing things like "Suck it up princess" or the shirts with "boys stink". That is just rude. Every child deserves to be treated with respect.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CanidFL* 
Ok I will put my flame retardant suit on for this question&#8230;..

Can someone explain what is wrong with dressing boys in "boy" colors? DS does not have pink or purple clothing. He mainly has brown, blue, grey, green, red and black. I don't see the big deal that he isn't wearing pink?

If I had a girl, I would dress her in reds, purples, greens, yellows, etc. (I don't personally like pink.) I would probably not buy her many "boy" colors and I would shop in the "girl" section at the store.

I just can't seem to understand where this thread is coming from on that issue









I guess I'm just not getting it.

I do want to say that I don't like hearing things like "Suck it up princess" or the shirts with "boys stink". That is just rude. Every child deserves to be treated with respect.

Why should the access to color be based on ones gender?
Who decided pink is "girl" (and BTW it wasnt' always that way...pink used to be the boy color)
What if your DS wanted to wear something pink? What if he wants to wear flowers? What if he wants to wear a ballerina on his clothes? Why should anyone's life be limited b/c they were born one gender or another?


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

I like my boys to dress like boys too. Because that is part of who they are. They ARE boys. And while society is not perfect in perception and stereotypes I don't feel strongly enough about it that it has to be my boys who have to change everyone's minds. When they chose their own clothes or things (ds has a pink hair brush and a pink and purple doll stroller) I will not object.

I will always address negative comments like the "noise with a little dirt on it" comment- my little guy is way more than just that! Or even "boys will be boys" I hate that one







: but I don't care if someone wants their girl to always be in pink and their boy in blue.


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## S.Lee (Jan 27, 2007)

ann_of_loxley said:


> What bothers me is the sexual steriotypes.
> 
> I also hate the attitude of 'suck it up! - Be a man'. The way boys and girls are treated differently from day one about their emotions.
> 
> ...


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 

I actually have a theory about this.
You know how men get 'man flu'? Like they overexaggerate any illness whilst woman tend to move on (we might be ill but we still have to take care of the children, take care of the house, go to work, etc)...I think this is their way of making up their lost affections in childhood because of the countless times they were expected to 'suck it up' and 'be a man'. (does that make sense? lol...It does to me hehe)

That does make a lot of sense!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Why should the access to color be based on ones gender?
Who decided pink is "girl" (and BTW it wasnt' always that way...pink used to be the boy color)
What if your DS wanted to wear something pink? What if he wants to wear flowers? What if he wants to wear a ballerina on his clothes? Why should anyone's life be limited b/c they were born one gender or another?

I am not the person this post was addressed to but I sort of agree with CandidFL. I would have no problem with my son wearing pink, flowers or a ballerina on his clothes -- if he wanted to. He does have a pink t-shirt that DH bought him, who incidentally prefers more feminine colors -- his closet is full of pink, lilac, turquoise, mint green etc and bemoans the fact it is hard to find clothes for men in those colors. DS's shirt does, however, say "It looked orange in the store" on it! Even though my son's father dresses in so-called feminine colors, it is not the colors he prefers for himself, he would rather wear navy, dark green, camo, brown, red etc, let alone flowers or ballerinas; so out of respect of his choices, these are the colors we buy his clothes in.


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## annie_noah (Jun 13, 2005)

I have also felt the frustration that the OP feels with regards to how boys are treated. It really came to a head for me one week when I was feeling particularly vulnerable with regards to how people were treating my husband (a SAHD) and my son (a normal, but active boy) AND I came across a letter to the editor in our local newspaper about parents whose baby boy was being refused day care spots just because he was a boy AND on another message board I was on, women were going on and on about how it isn't safe to leave your children to be babysat by teenage boys or by men because they are likely to abuse your kids. I was really worried for what that meant for my child and also what it continues to mean for my husband (e.g. other parents aren't comfortable having their kids come over to play when I'm not home because my husband is a man, which isn't fair to him or to my kids who then have to forego play dates when Mommy is at work).

Anyways, I got so frustrated and mad that I put all that energy into a long blog post about the Bias Against Boys (you can read it here: http://phdinparenting.com/2008/07/12/bias-against-boys/), including thoughts on some of the myths/perceptions of boys:
Our boys as hyperactive
Our boys as sexual predators
Our boys as violent
Our boys as uncaring

I also talked about the real and perceived differences between boys and girls and concluded with some thoughts on what we can do to help get rid of this bias against our boys:
* Teach our boys to be nurturing - give them the power of emotional intelligence.
* Give them a healthy diet, to avoid excess hyperactivity
* Give them opportunities to roughhouse and wrestle in a safe environment by engaging in physical play with their parents
* Give them plenty of opportunities to play outside, run around, to explore and to use their energy
* Limit access to television and Internet and ensure that materials are age appropriate and do not include images of violence or unhealthy sexuality
* Teach them about healthy sexuality and encourage them to ask questions
* Encourage them to express their emotions and rather than keeping them bottled up inside
* Teach them to respect people, including teachers, women and girls, those that are weaker than them, those that are different from them


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I have an 8 month old boy and the gender conformity brigade gets on my nerves. We pretty much buy him mostly gender neutral type clothes and gear because we want more kids and want the items to be re-usable.

I would not have a problem dressing my son in something like this
http://www.boutiqueforbaby.com/catal...80/4417696.htm if he said "Momma, I want pink." I probably would not give him a tutu and high heels, even if he asked, because I am the parent and I better understand the social consequences of making certain choices than he does at a young age. As he got older and understood the possibility of teasing, reputation, and has decided for himself the importance of "fitting in," and still needed these types of items to express himself I would not fight it.

I think at least in my family/social circle gender is used against boys to limit their access to enriching activities, for fear that partaking in the arts, caring for animals, or, god forbid, playing with non-violent non-aggressive toys will make said boy "GAY." And it seems so arbitrary, so insidious, like the real goal is something else. Fear of "GAY" is so evil, it oppresses little children. I have had to argue 1 too many people down about the importance of music education, I was shocked to find out that so many consider playing the piano so feminine that boys should not do it. "You want your SON to play the piano." Yes, and I will be buying my baby a toy piano for Christmas and he "watches" a music education video every day too. To me, music itself is gender neutral, and all instruments are as well, although you could say that instruments with a higher register might be considered more girly, I think that is very limited and should not keep kids from playing their preferred instruments.


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## kijip (Jun 29, 2005)

I don't think it does any good to try and figure out who has it "worse". Just that it is all unacceptable regardless of the gender or stereotypes. As a mother of a son I see what a lot of people on this thread are saying about discrimination/stereotyping that negatively impacts boys but as a woman, I can't say that girls have it any easier. It's not like a girl power shirt or getting gold stars in 2nd grade because you are ready to sit in a desk etc makes up in any appreciable way for the ongoing impacts of male privilege in this society.

My son likes a lot of traditionally girl and traditionally boy things. Does it bother me people assume that they can determine the sexuality of a 5 year old child because he likes pink or likes flower gardens? Of course. But I truly don't feel the need to tell moms with girls that their children have it better..because they don't.

In fact I think focusing on if girls or boys have it worse distracts from everyone, as people, working against bias based on gender.


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## annie_noah (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
I have an 8 month old boy and the gender conformity brigade gets on my nerves. We pretty much buy him mostly gender neutral type clothes and gear because we want more kids and want the items to be re-usable.

I would not have a problem dressing my son in something like this
http://www.boutiqueforbaby.com/catal...80/4417696.htm if he said "Momma, I want pink." I probably would not give him a tutu and high heels, even if he asked, because I am the parent and I better understand the social consequences of making certain choices than he does at a young age. As he got older and understood the possibility of teasing, reputation, and has decided for himself the importance of "fitting in," and still needed these types of items to express himself I would not fight it.

I think at least in my family/social circle gender is used against boys to limit their access to enriching activities, for fear that partaking in the arts, caring for animals, or, god forbid, playing with non-violent non-aggressive toys will make said boy "GAY." And it seems so arbitrary, so insidious, like the real goal is something else. Fear of "GAY" is so evil, it oppresses little children. I have had to argue 1 too many people down about the importance of music education, I was shocked to find out that so many consider playing the piano so feminine that boys should not do it. "You want your SON to play the piano." Yes, and I will be buying my baby a toy piano for Christmas and he "watches" a music education video every day too. To me, music itself is gender neutral, and all instruments are as well, although you could say that instruments with a higher register might be considered more girly, I think that is very limited and should not keep kids from playing their preferred instruments.

I would love to see my son play the piano. In fact, he will be starting next year at school and I am thrilled about it and so is he. He also has a pink polo shirt and has said he might like to be a fairy or a queen next year for halloween (although if past experience dictates the future, he will probably change his mind 50 times before then).

Here are some interesting posts on raising a feminist boy, that talk about some of those issues (one is mine, two are by others):
http://penguinunearthed.wordpress.co...feminist-boys/
http://community.feministing.com/200...inist-son.html
http://phdinparenting.com/2008/11/02...ng-a-feminist/


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## anjelika (May 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
What bugs me is how stupid boys and men are made out to be. Just watch network tv for half an hour and you'll see it countless time, on commericals, sitcoms, etc. Men are made to look like big bumbling idiots and their wives/mothers/neighbors swoop in to save the day.

This infuriates me!









No wonder men are loathe to pick up the slack - gee, they can't cook, clean, talk, negotiate, parent, love, do anything according to popular media/advertising!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I have a boy and a girl and they both have crappy things happen, especially based on gender stereotypes, but I have never seen boys treated as sub human.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

With respect, I agree with the other posters at the examplse kldliam gave are more generally abusive or poor parenting examples. I don't think I would be feel sorrier for a boy than a girl whose parent took a pair of pliers to their teeth. And I have seen parents scream and smack kids of both genders when they're annoyed, and have read about probably otherwise excellent parents *here* brag about going mama bear and chasing off people who dare to speak to their kids.

Here, too, I have seen other mothers defend their position that they will always look at any male school age and above as a natural rapist, and sometimes won't even allow them to earn trust, because they're inherently untrustworthy. I had no idea that such extreme views existed (and yes, I have been raped, being part of survivors groups was very important in my life for a time, and even THERE I never heard the kind of things that I have read here) until I joined this site ages ago.

To me, it's that kind of attitude that is the most disturbing. "Don't cry" bugs me, but it doesn't hit me in the gut like someone implying that because they have a penis my boys should be proactively treated like sexual offenders. To me, that IS treating a whole class of people as subhuman, as much as I have a great deal of empathy for the trauma that must have happened to make people feel that way.

The thing is, people say stupid crap. Always have, always will. I don't get mortally offended by it most of the time, because if I did I'd get a martyr complex. (I have multiples. Multiple boys. The age differene between my singleton and my multiples is 18 months. Trust me, people cannot help themselves but open their mouths and let stupidity flow out copiously, though it's gotten a lot better now that the kids are older and in different activities.)


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I've seen the whole 'boys don't cry' my IL's are big on the 'sissy boy!' bull crap. My MIL tried to call DS that for some reason and I turned on her and said "That had better be the LAST time you say something like that about my son." I hate it, boys are 'allowed' to have emotions too!

HOWEVER, you will hear me telling my DS to 'rub some dirt on it' or 'shake it off' when he falls and isn't really hurt. Just like when my DD is older I'll tell her to 'rub some dirt on it' or 'shake it off'. Not because I don't want them to be emotionless, but because I don't believe it's necessary to react to every little bump/fall. I know when DS is actually hurt and when he's just putting on a show for attention...sometimes I just gotta say "James, you're FINE. Shake it off."


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Why should the access to color be based on ones gender?
Who decided pink is "girl" (and BTW it wasnt' always that way...pink used to be the boy color)
What if your DS wanted to wear something pink? What if he wants to wear flowers? What if he wants to wear a ballerina on his clothes? Why should anyone's life be limited b/c they were born one gender or another?

If he asked, I would not object. But I would not purposefully go out and buy him a pink and purple shirt with a ballerina on it







I don't think his life is limited because of the color of his clothing. I have no problem with him taking ballet, playing with brooms, etc. I'm just talking about the color of clothing and us parents who decide to dress our child in traditional gender colors. I don't see the problem with it.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Okay, well I said in an earlier post that we don't normally get idiotic comments, but I just got one yesterday.

DS's dad and I work at the same restaurant, and yesterday he had the lunch shift and I was working the dinner shift. I came in at four, and was waiting for R to get off work so that I could go in. He was bartending, and like I usually do, I passed DS over the bar to R for some daddy hugs. An older man walks up to the bar and sits down and says to R "is that one yours??". R says "yep". Guy says "well you have a beautiful daughter". R says "haha, beautiful _son_, actually". Guy just stares at him, wide eyed and R, obviously seeing the guys confusion says "yeah, he has long hair". Another one of the (female) bartenders walks up and reaches out for DS (everyone at Outback loves him hehe) and R, just playing around, goes "nuh uh, he's mine!" but DS practically lept into her arms. R was like "ah, that's cold, son" and the guy at the bar starts laughing his butt off and says "ohhhh, yeah, he is aaaall boy". Because apparently, if a THREE year old wants to be held by a female, that must make him good and masculine.







It couldn't _possibly_ be that he knows that Miss Rachel often has candy in her purse.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
yes! thank you! i hate it when guys razz eachother, saying things like "you're such a girl" or "put down your purse", as though girls/women are lesser beings.

That made me LOL cause my son's dad really does carry a "man purse".









I'm hoping that between DS's dad and I, he'll have a pretty well-rounded idea of what girl and boy entails, despite the culture we live in.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I feel badly for boys but I also feel badly for girls too. Having a girl, I was told she was "flirting" when she smiled, told that she was going to "break hearts" because she is so "pretty" and that daddy better "keep her locked in her room until she is 25" (can anyone say inappropriate mature/sexual references???).

I've had comments along the same lines made towards my son







Although I have heard the girl comments more often. Keeping a bat behind the front door is a favorite in my neck of the woods.


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## XanaduMama (May 19, 2006)

This thread makes me feel so







:


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Why should the access to color be based on ones gender?
Who decided pink is "girl" (and BTW it wasnt' always that way...pink used to be the boy color)
What if your DS wanted to wear something pink? What if he wants to wear flowers? What if he wants to wear a ballerina on his clothes? Why should anyone's life be limited b/c they were born one gender or another?

ITA. MY ds and dd wear the same clothes and hand me downs and dress up as princesses and ballerinas and animals and everything together. I wouldn't have it any other way.

ETA: The examples cited definitely have more to do with bad parenting than anything else. Growing up female and raising a son and a daughter, I see just how misogynistic our society is.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urchin_grey* 
Because apparently, if a THREE year old wants to be held by a female, that must make him good and masculine.







It couldn't _possibly_ be that he knows that Miss Rachel often has candy in her purse.









Yep. We have been getting that kind of stuff since ds 6 was not even crawling. I try to head it off when I can tell someone is building up to a homophobic comment about him playing well with little girls by saying what a hit he is with the ladies. And he is, but I hate that I have to spin it. I don't think he is old enough to know about ANY sexuality, let alone have one pinned on him by an obvious sexist homophobe. And the sad thing is, I have had gay male coworkers make the same remarks about him because he likes to dress nicely and had shirley temple curls until he asked to cut them last year.
The only cool thing about the stupid hair remarks is that whereas anyone under seventy in TX seemingly makes one association about pretty little boys, really old men always chuckled and patted his head and said how pretty he was and that you wouldn't believe it by how ugly (their words) or bald they were now but they used to have just the same hairdo. And their wives would praise him for it too. So I mostly have to defend him against people my age and my parents' ages.
Of course he is getting to an age where kids are having more obvious weight and fitness problems so the fact that after years of ballet he is visibly in better shape (stands tall, shoulders back, etc) than the macho idiots' sons may solve that soon. Which is ironic because that's never been something I cared that much about. But yeah, DD climbing gets praise, DS doing ballet gets hateful remarks. They both do both things but my son gets way more crap about failing to fit the mold. I am just trying to teach him to be proud of not fitting the mold. It is a bad mold. (including the idea that when he has a daughter he should get armed to the teeth - we have gotten those comments about DD, too.)
layne


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 

The first boy, let's call him Gordon, is 9. He confided to me that his dad pulls his lose teeth out with pliers. I could tell he wasn't happy about it, that it was weighing on his mind somehow. When I reacted in disbelif and shock, he tried to play it down by saying "it's not so bad". Would his dad have done this to his daughter? Gordon is an only child. How would you feel if the story was about a girl instead of Gordon?

My parents pulled one of my teeth out with pliers!


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I feel badly for boys but I also feel badly for girls too. Having a girl, I was told she was "flirting" when she smiled, told that she was going to "break hearts" because she is so "pretty" and that daddy better "keep her locked in her room until she is 25" (can anyone say inappropriate mature/sexual references???). I have been told that she is "too" -- rambunctious, opinionated, etc -- I have had mothers tell their boys to be gentle with my daughter because "we need to be gentle with the girls" -- even though my daughter was having a great time (and the boy was just being a kid, nothing rough or mean).

I'm constantly told my boys are flirting too. I think any baby that smiles is considered a flirt.
And to be honest, after reading posts here about how evil all boys and men are, I DO teach my sons to be more gentle with girls. The last thing I need is someone thinking my child is assaulting their daughter.

OH! and for Halloween, DS wanted to be the purple teletubby, Tinky Winky. We had people beg us not to do it. Telling us he'd be gay. My husband actually had someone at work tell him that our son would be gay because he was in a Tinky Winky costume.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
IN truth, I think it's the flip side of girls must be little nice demure submissive things and boys must be aggressive tough emotionless machines. Really this mentality does no individual or society good. I think kids must be full people, regardless of gender, kwim?

I fully agree with this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Here, too, I have seen other mothers defend their position that they will always look at any male school age and above as a natural rapist, and sometimes won't even allow them to earn trust, because they're inherently untrustworthy. I had no idea that such extreme views existed (and yes, I have been raped, being part of survivors groups was very important in my life for a time, and even THERE I never heard the kind of things that I have read here) until I joined this site ages ago.

To me, it's that kind of attitude that is the most disturbing. "Don't cry" bugs me, but it doesn't hit me in the gut like someone implying that because they have a penis my boys should be proactively treated like sexual offenders. To me, that IS treating a whole class of people as subhuman, as much as I have a great deal of empathy for the trauma that must have happened to make people feel that way.

I had to quit coming to MDC for a long time after I read all the posts around a certain time about this. It broke my heart to think that so many people think this. I too have been raped, and sexually abused, and I don't look at all men to be perverted attackers.

My mom used to say things and send my email forwards all the time ab out how useless and dumb men are. About how nobody needs a man, ect. Her favorite thing to say was "I don't need no stupid, stinkin' man!". After my eldest was about 1, she said it and I gently reminded her that Rune would be a man some day. And I needed him, she needed him. And he wasn't stupid and didn't smell.

I think it sucks for both genders and we need to do our parts to realize a problem exists and help fix it


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

No Martyr Complex here. Just a sincere sadness about the way we interact with one another. I tend to use the "gender-lens" alot, so that is why I described these stories in _those_ terms. I don't think that it's right or wrong to do, it's just a way of looking at things. Yes, humans can all be abusive, but for some odd reason I am extremely sensitive to how little boys are treated or mistreated as the case may be.

Quote:

Aimee: I think it sucks for both genders and we need to do our parts to realize a problem exists and help fix it
I agree. This is really all that I could hope for. Thank you for saying it.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
The first boy, let's call him Gordon, is 9. He confided to me that his dad pulls his lose teeth out with pliers. I could tell he wasn't happy about it, that it was weighing on his mind somehow. When I reacted in disbelif and shock, he tried to play it down by saying "it's not so bad". Would his dad have done this to his daughter? Gordon is an only child. How would you feel if the story was about a girl instead of Gordon?

My grandpa pulled my teeth out with pliers.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
My grandpa pulled my teeth out with pliers.

I don't think it is really abusive. I think people just don't really think. Oh this was how my teeth were pulled when they were loose so I will do it to So and so. They don't think it is any worse than removing a splinter with a needle. A necessary evil.

My mother tied a string to my tooth and the other end to the doorknob then told me to slam the door when she left the room. She couldn't stand the sight of blood and wouldn't do it herself.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I don't think it is really abusive. I think people just don't really think. Oh this was how my teeth were pulled when they were loose so I will do it to So and so. They don't think it is any worse than removing a splinter with a needle. A necessary evil.

My mother tied a string to my tooth and the other end to the doorknob then told me to slam the door when she left the room. She couldn't stand the sight of blood and wouldn't do it herself.










My grandpa might have pulled his own teeth out with pliers.







I should ask him.


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## PabloHoneySF (Sep 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love_My_Babies* 
I have been grappling with these issues for some time. A great read on the subject is Raising Cain, The Emotional Life of Boys. You can read snipits of it on the PBS parent site.

I have three boys ages three and under, and I have had a lot of comments from people. Each time I was pregnant, people would assume we were trying for a girl. They were shocked when they found out that gender didn't matter to me, and I just wanted a healthy baby. Now that I have three boys, people wish me luck and tell me I have my hands full. I feel sorry for those people because they haven't enjoyed the pure love, energy and enthusiasim for life that these three boys bring us. So, I simply say, "Yes, three boys. Aren't I lucky!"


I second that Raising Cain is a really great book on this subject!

I'm going to give birth to my third boy soon and also cannot believe how many people have asked me if we were trying for a girl or are going to try for a 4th to get a girl. I really feel sometimes that little boys are just not valued in society.


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PabloHoneySF* 
I second that Raising Cain is a really great book on this subject!

I'm going to give birth to my third boy soon and also cannot believe how many people have asked me if we were trying for a girl or are going to try for a 4th to get a girl. I really feel sometimes that little boys are just not valued in society.

I see this happen to many mama's if they have children that are all one sex." I think there is this assumption that your family is not complete without at least one of "each"


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah. People are shocked that we are having another baby since we already have one of each. They aren't salt and pepper shakers.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PabloHoneySF* 
I'm going to give birth to my third boy soon and also cannot believe how many people have asked me if we were trying for a girl or are going to try for a 4th to get a girl. I really feel sometimes that little boys are just not valued in society.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ryansma* 
I see this happen to many mama's if they have children that are all one sex." I think there is this assumption that your family is not complete without at least one of "each"









I got that all the time when I had three girls. I don't think it has anything to do with not valuing boys... it's as ryansma said, people don't think your family is complete without boys and girls.

I always got, so now that you have a boy your done?


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## acannon (Nov 21, 2007)

I've only gotten a few comments about it. One was about how DS is "all boy" and will probably play football someday. The other one was from a cashier at Sears about how girls are so hard to raise and to never have one and about how she loves little boys. I hope I never get any of the comments any of you have gotten. Wow. I personally think all children are treated as less than human and it seems that boys get the short end of the stick with some people, especially older people and people who like girls better than boys, for whatever reason. I hate some of the boy stereotypes that are perpetuated but it honestly seems to me that a lot of people are trying to get away from those, which is good.


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## layne (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *acannon* 
Wow. I personally think all children are treated as less than human. . .

amen to that. We talk about it sometimes and the kids now refer to some people as "you know, that kind of person who thinks that kids are small stupid grownups." They know that the problem is with _that kind_ of person and not them, which is the best I can do you know? That and remind my kids not to grow up to be that kind of person. Or "one of those people who think only boys can do science" or "one of those people who think they are better because they are white" or "one of those people who think only girls can be gentle." I wish we didn't have to have so many "one of those people" discussions though (while at the same time being proud that my kids really believe in kindness even to "one of those people who"s)
layne


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

nak

I also wanted to add, a pediatrician at the hospital (not our pedi) said "Oh he's your first boy? Watch out for him, boys always use Mommy as a pacifier." (Said as I was nursing him.)

Um, what?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *acannon* 
Wow. I personally think all children are treated as less than human and it seems that boys get the short end of the stick with some people, especially older people and people who like girls better than boys, for whatever reason.

Personally, "those types of people" exist for anything you can think of. My cousin's grandma, (not the one we shared but the other one) like her brother and sister better because they were blond with blue eyes. She treated my brother and I better than my cousin for the same reason as well. My cousin who was her actual blood granddaughter she treated like crap cause she had brown hair and brown eyes. This woman was from Portugal. She too had brown hair and brown eyes. (she was born in the 1890's) So it doesn't matter if someone dislikes someone for being a boy, being a girl, or because of their appearance, it has nothing to do with sex but rather the persons personal prejudice.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
What about what is expected of females in our society?

I don't see this with my boys but I **do** see this happening with girls. Girls are expected to be mild mannered, wear dresses when they need to, be quiet, to not be rough during play, wear their hair long or pretty. I'm part of a homeschool community and I see a lot of this around me so maybe I see it more because of my homeschool group. But why is it that girls are supposed to be the soft, quiet ones and boys are expected to always be...well...boys? and whatever that entails.


I'm acutely conscious of the fact that many mothers advocate for their daughters to be able to run wild if they want and are accepted for who and what they are, but are more reticent about speaking up to allow their sons to meet their full potential. I have one daughter, three boys, and I can see the places where they're trying to fit her into a neat little pigeon-hole. I would say, though, that my daughter constantly surprises me by how long she will stay focused on a task for.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
during hawk's blessing, i had an interesting conversation with my aunt, who is a psychologist. she asked me to be sure to keep hawk out of school until he would be about 9 or 10. her reasoning was that boys develop differently than girls and are largely kiniesthetic learners.

and that in the institution of education, the need to move (in boys and girls) is seen as 'bad behavior' and systematically punished out of them one way or another. she felt that it was particularly hard on boys, because unlike girls (in general of course), they are less likely to "follow teacher" and more likely to explore on their own. this also leads to punishment.

in her mind and expertise, until the educational system takes into account active children, kinesthetic learners, and non-followers (or independent learners), it's better to keep children (girls adn boys, but particularly boys because, in general, they tend more to this tyle of learning as little ones) away from school and homeschool or find specialized alternative schools for them.

it was interseting, considering how school-focused that part of the family is. . .but when my aunt speaks, people listen. after hearing her say it, everyone is supporting homeschooling now.

Absolutely. The school system over here isn't set up for boys either, but I gather its better than it is over there in the US. My sons are 8 and 9 now, and they're just coming to the point where they're coping really well with the classroom environment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kijip* 
I don't think it does any good to try and figure out who has it "worse". Just that it is all unacceptable regardless of the gender or stereotypes. As a mother of a son I see what a lot of people on this thread are saying about discrimination/stereotyping that negatively impacts boys but as a woman, I can't say that girls have it any easier. It's not like a girl power shirt or getting gold stars in 2nd grade because you are ready to sit in a desk etc makes up in any appreciable way for the ongoing impacts of male privilege in this society.

My son likes a lot of traditionally girl and traditionally boy things. Does it bother me people assume that they can determine the sexuality of a 5 year old child because he likes pink or likes flower gardens? Of course. But I truly don't feel the need to tell moms with girls that their children have it better..because they don't.

In fact I think focusing on if girls or boys have it worse distracts from everyone, as people, working against bias based on gender.

This is my point though: that an awful lot of feminists are working to allow their daughters to reach their true potential but aren't advocating for their sons in the same way. So what if a little boy wants to grow his hair long, wear pink and play piano (or even sing strewn across the top of it like Michelle Pfeiffer in the Fabulous Baker Boys?) As long as its his choice and he's not doing it because he feels pressured into it, it's all good- just as it's all good if he wants to spend every waking moment chasing a pigskin bladder around.
Something that hasn't been touched on yet is that we're the first post-feminist generation, and there's a lot of children growing up now whose fathers have been totally and utterly unable to rise to the challenge of parenting them. There's a lot of fathers who have walked away from their children or relinquished parental rights- and a lot who haven't, but who aren't doing their jobs. There's a lot of conflicting pressures on men- they have to be strong, healthy, in touch with their creative and artistic side, athletic enough to play sports, able to provide for their families- often working more than one job- but also able to keep going for several hours after they come home working a third shift cuddling the baby and easing some of the pressure on mum, and that's hard work too. I don't think we're giving our sons an education and a raising that would accurately prepare them for this if we let them off with "boys will be boys" and a shake of the head.
Obviously, life is tough for the typical adult woman too, that goes without saying







: I just think that the stereotypical boyhood is poor preparation for manhood nowadays.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kijip* 
I don't think it does any good to try and figure out who has it "worse". Just that it is all unacceptable regardless of the gender or stereotypes. As a mother of a son I see what a lot of people on this thread are saying about discrimination/stereotyping that negatively impacts boys but as a woman, I can't say that girls have it any easier. It's not like a girl power shirt or getting gold stars in 2nd grade because you are ready to sit in a desk etc makes up in any appreciable way for the ongoing impacts of male privilege in this society.

My son likes a lot of traditionally girl and traditionally boy things. Does it bother me people assume that they can determine the sexuality of a 5 year old child because he likes pink or likes flower gardens? Of course. But I truly don't feel the need to tell moms with girls that their children have it better..because they don't.

In fact I think focusing on if girls or boys have it worse distracts from everyone, as people, working against bias based on gender.









:


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

I think flapjack makes very good points. Great post!

_The War Against Boys_ by Christina Hoff Sommers deals with some of these issues. I didn't think it was as well-researched as her previous book, but it made some very interesting points about the education system. It's def. worth a trip to the library


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
This is my point though: that an awful lot of feminists are working to allow their daughters to reach their true potential but aren't advocating for their sons in the same way. So what if a little boy wants to grow his hair long, wear pink and play piano (or even sing strewn across the top of it like Michelle Pfeiffer in the Fabulous Baker Boys?) As long as its his choice and he's not doing it because he feels pressured into it, it's all good- just as it's all good if he wants to spend every waking moment chasing a pigskin bladder around.
Something that hasn't been touched on yet is that we're the first post-feminist generation, and there's a lot of children growing up now whose fathers have been totally and utterly unable to rise to the challenge of parenting them. There's a lot of fathers who have walked away from their children or relinquished parental rights- and a lot who haven't, but who aren't doing their jobs. There's a lot of conflicting pressures on men- they have to be strong, healthy, in touch with their creative and artistic side, athletic enough to play sports, able to provide for their families- often working more than one job- but also able to keep going for several hours after they come home working a third shift cuddling the baby and easing some of the pressure on mum, and that's hard work too. I don't think we're giving our sons an education and a raising that would accurately prepare them for this if we let them off with "boys will be boys" and a shake of the head.
Obviously, life is tough for the typical adult woman too, that goes without saying







: *I just think that the stereotypical boyhood is poor preparation for manhood nowadays.*

I agree especially with the part I bolded. I think we can agree that it's hard both ways and we all need to make a great effort to eliminate these stereotypes so our children can just be who they are with out being forced into restrictive and harmful gender boxes.


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## Miss 1928 (Nov 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
nak

I also wanted to add, a pediatrician at the hospital (not our pedi) said "Oh he's your first boy? Watch out for him, boys always use Mommy as a pacifier." (Said as I was nursing him.)

Um, what?

I am totally my DD's pacifier. which, after 21 months, makes me feel both







and









Two of my friends' sons self weaned before 12 months. (or maybe it was a misunderstood nursing strike, I don't know.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PabloHoneySF* 
I'm going to give birth to my third boy soon and also cannot believe how many people have asked me if we were trying for a girl or are going to try for a 4th to get a girl. I really feel sometimes that little boys are just not valued in society.

I think that if you were about to give birth to your third daughter, instead of third son, you would have just as many people, if not more, asking if you were going to try for a boy to complete your family. Everyone keeps telling us, you have a girl, you should try for a boy now. Everyone seems to think that you need "one of each" or you're not complete.

It seems to me that boys not being valued in our society is a new (past 20 years or so) thing. Aren't there are still so many cultures in our world that will abandon thier children because they were born a girl and not a desired boy?

It doesn't excuse "boy abuse" in my mind, not one whit, but perhaps all this is happening because of a back-lash? I don't know, just wondering about it a bit. I do not intend on teaching my daughter that "boys stink" but I do want her to be aware (not now, she's still too little, but eventually) and cautious of the prevelance of violence and abuse against women. (Maybe I'll make a shirt that reads; "Violence stinks".)

I just read this:

Quote:

Worldwide, the U.N. says one of every five women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape at some point in their lifetime, and at least one of every three women is likely to be beaten, coerced into sex or abused in some other way.
It seems like a bad cycle to me. If we nurtured and cared for our boys in the same way that girls are coddled then perhaps the above statistics wouldn't be so depressing, right? I want women (and girls) to find their strength, but without feeling the need to bash men (and boys). It is no soloution to the problem if the oppressees (sp?) turn around and become the oppressors.

I want to go find a boy to hug.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
ITA. MY ds and dd wear the same clothes and hand me downs and dress up as princesses and ballerinas and animals and everything together. I wouldn't have it any other way.


awwww that's so cute! they're both boys but i hope my LOs get along that well!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

FlapJack: This is my point though: that an awful lot of feminists are working to allow their daughters to reach their true potential but aren't advocating for their sons in the same way.
I've always known that being a TRUE Feminist means advocating for both sexes. Not just females.

Quote:


Miss 1928: I just read this:

Quote:

_Worldwide, the U.N. says one of every five women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape at some point in their lifetime, and at least one of every three women is likely to be beaten, coerced into sex or abused in some other way._
Miss 1928 con't: It seems like a bad cycle to me. If we nurtured and cared for our boys in the same way that girls are coddled then perhaps the above statistics wouldn't be so depressing, right? I want women (and girls) to find their strength, but without feeling the need to bash men (and boys). It is no soloution to the problem if the oppressees (sp?) turn around and become the oppressors. *I want to go find a boy to hug.*
EXACTLY! Yes. LOL.









The sexes are so intertwined with one another that whatever hurts one side also hurts the other. We are really the same coin with two different sides IMO. Boys need to be handled with just as much respect and kindness and concern as girls are if we ever expect to achieve true *harmony and justice* for all.


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