# 11 year old son and hardcore pornography



## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

HELP! Last year, back in August? I was helping my oldest son clean his room and I ran across several printouts of hardcore porn pics. I calmly looked at him and said, "Sweetie, what's this?" and he burst into tears. I held him and told him it's totally normal to want to know what a woman looks like and totally normal to find these pictures attractive. However, I don't feel that hardcore porn is appropriate for an 11 year old, yk? I feel it's just too much for them to comprehend or understand or anything. Also I don't want him thinking that all women are like the women in the pictures. Most women don't have that kind of body, lol. I gave him the option of getting rid of it or keeping it (!) and he said he wanted to get rid of everything.

So, I thought we were done... but apparently not. Last Saturday, I was cleaning out his room in preparation for new furniture (whack my hand) and guess what I found? More hardcore porn. And this stuff was GRAPHIC. I just don't know what to do. It's not BAD... but... it is inappropriate for him, I think. He's only 11.5 and that's a lot for someone that age to wrap his brain around... I don't know what to do... I don't want him to think he's bad for having these feelings because he's NOT bad. He's a fabulous kid.

But, also some of the pic were of "hot teens" and, while that may be 18 or 19, he was downloading these at my parents' house... And y'know, we had a "family friend" get in trouble for child pornography (real child porn, too. It was awful). And we were worried about my DAD getting in trouble for getting illegal porn.

I don't mind him looking at scantily clad women... that's totally cool in my book, but I feel hardcore is way too much. Help?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

agree 100% with the hardcore, and what you did the first time is good and I would keep doing it as you find his stashes explaining to him that hard core is not appropriate and if he chooses to look at it when he gets older that is his personal choice.

My dad's solution, not saying it was the best and I won't be following suit, was to leave his subscription to playboy laying around his house, granted we didn't live with him full time, and so long as we weren't 'caught' looking we didn't get in trouble. He knew we looked, he knew we knew he knew, and so long as we didn't get 'caught' we didn't get in trouble.

I had a brother 3 years older so my brother was 15 and I was about 12 when that was going on but my dad always exclaimed that hard core was filth and playboy was classy.

All that being said you can't stifle curiousity, you can just set ground rules for your house. And if this was my household his alone time on the grandparents computer would be removed. Period. It is not ok to browse porn at the grand parents house.

I like what you did the first time around, but I personally wouldn't give him the option of keeping it. I would bring it up to him with him there, let him know you weren't snooping but you DID find it and let him know it is not ok to have hard core porn in the house. Then ask him if he wants a subscription to Maxim maybe? My dad got us 'men's mags' like maxim and sport illustrated when we were young/pre teens too.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Yeah, it sounds kind of young to be having those pictures in your head. Best thing might be to not let him on computer unless it is in a common area with people around. Also, depending on if you want to let him know you found his "stash", you might want to remind that there are things that can get you in trouble on the computer and maybe it would not be so good if grandpa has to explain to the feds why he was looking at child porn (not from personal experience but teen porn and child porn tend to come up on the same searches so it is possible there your ds could have pulled some of it up on grandpa's computer).


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Am PMing you, I know someone with personal experience but don't feel OK sharing publically since they aren't the one sharing it...


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Since the first time, I had my parents put a filter on their PCs(all four of them). Net nanny, IIRC. At our home, the computer is in our bedroom, and the door is always open. I would know. We also have a filter as well.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

He was able to download them at your parents' despite the net nanny?? I don't have any experience with them, but if so, that's too bad.

I would bring it up with him again, discuss your concerns, and also highlight the legality and getting grandpa in trouble. If he's old enough to be curious, he's old enough to have a proper discussion about 'big picture' issues around hardcore porn, and why you have a problem with him looking at it - and involving his grandpa.


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## SusanElizabeth (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
My dad's solution, not saying it was the best and I won't be following suit, was to leave his subscription to playboy laying around his house, granted we didn't live with him full time, and so long as we weren't 'caught' looking we didn't get in trouble. He knew we looked, he knew we knew he knew, and so long as we didn't get 'caught' we didn't get in trouble.

I had to smile when I read your post. My father did exactly the same thing with the Playboy subscription. I was one of five children, and, although I was girl, I have to admit that my sister and I would go into my parents' bedroom when they weren't around and read it together. My brother probably did the same thing. The thing that I took away from the experience of looking at Playboy and some of the other books about sex that my parents kept, was the idea that sex was a lot of fun and very enjoyable.

so -- back to GoodWillHunter's post -- To a certain extent, I think interest in porn is normal. I can see where the "hard core" stuff is disturbing, so I don't really have any good advice about that but I do think that your son looking at this is not inconsistent with the "fabulous kid" that you describe (and I'm sure he is!)

***I wanted to add -- I think looking at porn on his grandparent's computer is a really bad idea. I would not let him use the computer there.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Just for clairfication the hardcore stuff he had had been printed _last_ year when he initially printed out the pictures. I guess he had a "secret" stash. Recently, he'd been spending more time upstairs in his room, "reading". And usually, he's downstairs with the rest of us, soooooo... even though I really was in there, cleaning, I was wondering if there was another stash... and of course, I came across it. I wasn't actively digging, I just was cleaning out what appeared to be paper trash.

So, to recap, he didn't download this with NetNanny in operation. It was last year. I think he had put some somewhere... and either forgot about it, or neglected to tell me.

The Playboy Idea is a grand one and I will discuss it with my husband and see what he thinks. I mean, we love sex (lol), and are anything but prudish or whatever... we are very open and that's how I want it to be. I grew up in a household where sex was nasty or dirty or gross. That's not how I want my kids to feel.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, here's my take, and I may be the only one who feels this way: from what you're telling us, you have a great kid, these pictures aren't disturbing (graphic, yes, disturbing, no), they were not printed recently, and he's not behaving in an inappropriate manner. I would say maybe get rid of them and just drop the subject - unless you feel he is developing a problem, I also think any forays into his room should be carefully considered first.

My husband, from over my shoulder: "You should just do what my mom always did: leave the porn on my bed with a note saying 'get rid of these'."









Honestly, he sounds fine. I understand your feelings about objectification, but I also think that, as women, we have to remember that this is a delicate time in a boy's life, and having to talk to his mom about his sexual thoughts as they're developing might be a huge source of embarrassment for him.

I can't say I really agree with the Playboy idea, frankly. It might seem odd to him to suddenly find that around the house after his mother threw away his porn - it sends very mixed messages, IMO.


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## Legato_bluesummers (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Well, here's my take, and I may be the only one who feels this way: from what you're telling us, you have a great kid, these pictures aren't disturbing (graphic, yes, disturbing, no), they were not printed recently, and he's not behaving in an inappropriate manner. I would say maybe get rid of them and just drop the subject - unless you feel he is developing a problem, I also think any forays into his room should be carefully considered first.

My husband, from over my shoulder: "You should just do what my mom always did: leave the porn on my bed with a note saying 'get rid of these'."









Honestly, he sounds fine. I understand your feelings about objectification, but I also think that, as women, we have to remember that this is a delicate time in a boy's life, and having to talk to his mom about his sexual thoughts as they're developing might be a huge source of embarrassment for him.

I can't say I really agree with the Playboy idea, frankly. It might seem odd to him to suddenly find that around the house after his mother threw away his porn - it sends very mixed messages, IMO.

I agree with Mamawindmill. He does sound perfectly ok. I know he is young and that he is looking at pornography. I know I did the same exact thing when I was 12. The difference is is that I found it in my dads filing cabinet. When he found out that I was looking at them (mom too), he just told me that it is perfectly fine (Most awkward moment in my life). Every (well not every) man and woman is going to get curious about EVERYTHING. I mean, I understand how you feel. I know if I saw my dd or ds with it, I would have a heart attack. But I wouldn't blow it out of proportion.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

My parents subs were out in the open also. My dad got playboy and penthouse and my mom got playgirl for awhile. In our case they were in the loving room







I read my dads mags at that age, 11ish, I'm not and wasn't particularly interested in playgirl. I devoured the call me madam column in penthouse though. He does sound quite normal to me.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I'm wondering if part of the confusion with your son is that in the first place you gave him a choice to keep the pictures. I would like to see more parental leadership here. I think he needs to hear that his curiosity is natural, cool, etc. but that sex is about a lot more than these pictures and that it can be a negative thing to have his views of women, his thoughts about sex, etc. be tied up with hard core images.

There are pictures that if put in a person's head early (and strongly reinforced - what could be a bigger reinforcement than an orgasm) are hard to get over. There is some really icky, really nasty stuff online that frankly I'd rather not have a kid see. 11 is a kid. Kids may have sexual feelings but that doesn't make them anything other than kids who need guidance and help to make healthy choices.

In some ways this conversation is reminding a lot of conversations about spanking in some circles where we hear "but I turned out fine" and lots of rationalizations and justifications that what parents did was correct. I think it is possible to say instead that while many people turn out just fine viewing porn as children, it isn't the best way to learn about sex and one thing we can do as parents is to provide safe places for our kids.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

okay, i'm not a parent yet but just had an observation, so take it FWIW. another difference between "then" and "now" is just the sheer volume and variety of pornographic material available online. i think the internet represents a very different kind of exposure to sex for children than anything i faced growing up!

playboy, penthouse, i saw all of that--but there were only a few magazines lying around the house. it's not like i could've literally spent all day online looking at thousands of different naked people, LOL. i dunno...for some reason, internet porn seems more dangerous to me, just because the constant novelty of it makes it harder to get bored with. and so i think kids (and adults







) run the risk of getting addicted to it more easily than in the past.

so while some of these sexually open, encouraging parenting tactics might have worked well when there were some porn subscriptions in the house--it's a different phenomenon now and harder to manage, i think.


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## MidgeMommy (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm afraid I disagree with most of Roar's post. I know that when I was 11, I was reading a trashy romance novel a night; whichever one my mom had finished last. And when I got bored of that, I moved on to crazier stuff, that I found online. But I did have to hide it from my parents, and I think that hiding it made me more likely to look for the more 'hardcore' stuff, because it seemed more taboo. What I really would have appreciated was if my mom would let me talk to her about the romance stories. I was trying to learn about sex, and those romantic versions were the best way to do it.

Romance novels, of course, aren't hardcore porn. But the point is, I think you did right by making it HIS choice to throw out the hardcore porn in the first place, but I think he felt obligated to keep the rest of his 'stash' because he wasn't given a healthy sexual alternative. Playboy, while not the ideal for giving him a healthy and normal standard for women's body, is much closer too age appropriate than what your describing as being in his possesion. There are plenty of books and stories that have sex in them, and things like Sports Illustrated and even Victoria Secret catalogues, that boys can 'fantasize' about.

Maybe, he and Dad need to have a talk about 'acceptable' reading material, and the difference between Playboy and his stash need to be defined. That way, he understands that it isn't the sex that bothers you, its the content, and that there are healthy and satisfying alternatives to bordeline-illegal pornography.

Good luck, and I'm glad you recognize sex as normal and your son as a good person, a lot of parents(like mine!) aren't mature enough to deal with the two together. Which makes me wonder about the health and stability of their sex lives....


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

First of all, this is a tough thing for me as a parent, as I'm venturing into uncharted waters. As for the choice, well, I admit that probably wasn't the best idea in the world, but I was totally caught unawares and I wasn't sure what to do. I didn't want him to think his feelings are "bad" or "ugly" or "nasty".

I am more inclined to leave the door open, as it were, for conversations with my son and give him unconditional love and a safe place to talk. Our home is a safe place, as we have net filters on everything and no internet access in rooms where you can "be alone."

Quote:

In some ways this conversation is reminding a lot of conversations about spanking in some circles where we hear "but I turned out fine" and lots of rationalizations and justifications that what parents did was correct. I think it is possible to say instead that while many people turn out just fine viewing porn as children, it isn't the best way to learn about sex and one thing we can do as parents is to provide safe places for our kids.
And, frankly, this particular quote hurts me as that is totally not where I"m going with this. I'm doing the absolute best I can with very limited tools. In my home growing up, sex was NOT a topic of discussion, ever. And I mean EVER. It was "gross" and "dirty" and "ugly" and "nasty." To this day, my mother feels uncomfortable if my three year old is naked. She says "I don't like naked people." It's a wonder I was ever conceived in the first place.

My son is safe here. His dad and I are not together and, AFAIK, their home is a safe zone as well. My parents now have NetNanny (confirmed yesterday), and they are a safe zone as well. And by trying not to make a big deal out of it, to me, makes it easier for my son to deal with it. If I turned it into a drama, then it's going to be even more attractive to him. I spoke with him again, saying that I don't like him having those pictures as they are a lot to handle at once and I don't feel he's ready for them. Period.

As for "going through his stuff" well... I was cleaning out his room in preparation for new furniture. I had asked him to do it several times and he hadn't. So, I did it. And I feel that needs no justification. I don't just randomly go in there and dig through his stuff. I'm better than that, thank you very much. I had a parent who went through my stuff... and that sucks.


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## kyndmamaof4 (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree with Yoshua, get him a subscription to Maxim or SI...PLENTY of flesh for an 11, 12 or even 14 yo boy to see, IMO.

My oldest boy is just turning 8 next month, but I know that it won't be long before we are right where you are.

I am very open with my kids, we are not modest, our kids feel completely fine walking around nude, as well as do we(DH and I)(usually just from our room to the bathroom, or from the bathroom to the laundry room) now that we have a baby girl, I don't know how daddy feels about that, but it wouldn't bother me till she was bigger.

I was raised very prudish, and sex and sexuality were wrong and inappropriate.

That is the last thing I want to do to my kids. I want them to trust their instincts, and listen to their bodies, but only as it is age appropirate.

Hardcore porn is not appropirate for anyone under 18, and personally some of the stuff I've seen,even just straight one man one woman sex, can get a little far out there for kids and young adults who really IMO should be starting out slow, fetish porn or just the pure objectifying of women is not appropirate for anyone under 21.

I feel like if ya start out with the more extreme versions of sex, it only perpetuates "hang ups" later in life. "men's mags." are leaving a little more to mystery...Y/K?


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## Legato_bluesummers (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I'm wondering if part of the confusion with your son is that in the first place you gave him a choice to keep the pictures. I would like to see more parental leadership here. I think he needs to hear that his curiosity is natural, cool, etc. but that sex is about a lot more than these pictures and that it can be a negative thing to have his views of women, his thoughts about sex, etc. be tied up with hard core images.

There are pictures that if put in a person's head early (and strongly reinforced - what could be a bigger reinforcement than an orgasm) are hard to get over. There is some really icky, really nasty stuff online that frankly I'd rather not have a kid see. 11 is a kid. Kids may have sexual feelings but that doesn't make them anything other than kids who need guidance and help to make healthy choices.

In some ways this conversation is reminding a lot of conversations about spanking in some circles where we hear "but I turned out fine" and lots of rationalizations and justifications that what parents did was correct. I think it is possible to say instead that while many people turn out just fine viewing porn as children, it isn't the best way to learn about sex and one thing we can do as parents is to provide safe places for our kids.

With Roars post. I agree with what you are saying about the negative affect on his mind. I think that is where the parents come in and talk to him about the roles that the people are "playing" in those magazines and how to treat women. Like I said in my case. I was 11 or 12 when my dad and mom found me. And I must say, my vision of sex was skewed then. I only knew what I saw in those books and on online videos. But my dad and mom talked to me about what those books and videos were intended for and how to treat women and such. Just talk with him and don't make him feel like he should feel bad for what he has done. In my opinion, there are only three ways to learn about sex. 1) Talking 2) Having Sex 3) Pics and Videos. Talk to him about the ways he should go indulging himself.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
First of all, this is a tough thing for me as a parent, as I'm venturing into uncharted waters. As for the choice, well, I admit that probably wasn't the best idea in the world, but I was totally caught unawares and I wasn't sure what to do. I didn't want him to think his feelings are "bad" or "ugly" or "nasty".

Oh, just to be clear I totally get it was an in the moment thing and I don't think you handled it terribly. I think you were totally right to put filters on stuff and I think I might be the only person who has posted who agreed that there is a concern about viewing pornography this might affect his feelings about women and sex.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
I am more inclined to leave the door open, as it were, for conversations with my son and give him unconditional love and a safe place to talk.

Gosh, I hope so and I don't see anyone who suggested otherwise. I think it is very possible as a parent to have very open discussion, conversations, etc. and still have clear limits. Driving the car drunk is against the rules. It is dangerous. We can and should talk about why that rule exists and how we feel about it, but the limit isn't one that is open for negotiation. To me the limit is a very small part of how this is handled and the much bigger one involves a lot of talking.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
And, frankly, this particular quote hurts me as that is totally not where I"m going with this. I'm doing the absolute best I can with very limited tools. In my home growing up, sex was NOT a topic of discussion, ever. And I mean EVER. It was "gross" and "dirty" and "ugly" and "nasty." To this day, my mother feels uncomfortable if my three year old is naked. She says "I don't like naked people." It's a wonder I was ever conceived in the first place.

LOL on the conception. Sorry your family didn't handle this better.

That quote was directed at the responses in this thread. Unfortunately for many people the ONLY place they learned about sex was through porn. What I'd like to suggest is that there are healthy approaches to be honest about sexuality in a family that don't include having 11 year old children look at porn. There are other ways to learn about sex and I hate to see posters on this thread saying the answer is to childhood curiosity about sex is to provide porn. What I got from your original post was that you recognized that porn could be problematic for your son and I'm trying to offer some support that you are on the right track here.

Another thing that might be worth thinking about is what kind of access he's had to sexuality information and education. The UU church has a very good sex ed curriculum and that may be worth considering. At this point what ever you do I'd like to see ongoing discussions with your son about these issues.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
I spoke with him again, saying that I don't like him having those pictures as they are a lot to handle at once and I don't feel he's ready for them. Period.

I'm glad you did that. My suggestion is really just that saying it isn't allowed may be EASIER for him than saying he can make a choice and that you will just disapprove of the choice. I believe there are times when kids like to have the limit because it allows them some freedom from themselves and having to have all the responsibility. I think by installing the computer filters, etc. that is exactly what you are doing for him.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Is it possible he didn't even remember the pictures were there? I think everyone has to remember that he printed these out a year ago. It's not like he's breaking into people's computers to get at porn. I think GoodWillHunter is taking the right approach here - and I think her kid is just fine, honestly.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

I did tell him that I didn't like how the pornography portrayed women and that it made women seem as objects rather than people. Although, I'm not sure if he got the idea, lol. But, at any rate, he knows that hardcore is not acceptable. It is entirely possible, MamaWindmill. I think he had it stashed in several places (even at my parents' house) He and his cousin (who is 13) downloaded it together, IIRC. My sister made her son apologize to my parents for doing this. I totally disagree with that... It's punitive and degrading.

Thanks, btw. I'm just a bit sensitive today...


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
I did tell him that I didn't like how the pornography portrayed women and that it made women seem as objects rather than people. Although, I'm not sure if he got the idea, lol. But, at any rate, he knows that hardcore is not acceptable. It is entirely possible, MamaWindmill. I think he had it stashed in several places (even at my parents' house) He and his cousin (who is 13) downloaded it together, IIRC. My sister made her son apologize to my parents for doing this. I totally disagree with that... It's punitive and degrading.

Thanks, btw. I'm just a bit sensitive today...









Ah! The plot thickens! I have a strong, strong premonition that your son, who burst into tears when the subject first came up, felt weird and uncomfortable about those pictures but didn't want to appear childish in front of the older kid. Not to do a patented MDC-Knee-Jerk-Reaction (







), but are there any issues with the 13 year old, that you know of? Do you feel there's any reason to be concerned about having your boy around him? That would get my spidey-sense tingling just a teense, but of course, I am a bit (just a bit! I swear!) overprotective.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I don't know, I see the concern that somehow seeing porn is going to make people think that all women should look a certain way or act a certain way ect ect and I just haven't seen that played out in reality. Do some people have rigid ideas about acceptable looks? yes. But IME porn has not been the caustive reason for that. I'm in my 40s and most of the men and women I know have experience looking at porn starting at a variety of ages and they are all in relationships with average looking people with mostly satisfying sex lives. I've actually only known a few men (and in fact more women) that have narrow views regarding acceptable looks for partners. It just hasn't been my experience that these two things are directly related.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't know, I see the concern that somehow seeing porn is going to make people think that all women should look a certain way or act a certain way ect ect and I just haven't seen that played out in reality. Do some people have rigid ideas about acceptable looks? yes. But IME porn has not been the caustive reason for that. I'm in my 40s and most of the men and women I know have experience looking at porn starting at a variety of ages and they are all in relationships with average looking people with mostly satisfying sex lives. I've actually only known a few men (and in fact more women) that have narrow views regarding acceptable looks for partners. It just hasn't been my experience that these two things are directly related.

/agree

I wouldn't think spidey senses would go off because he was with his older cousin doing this. His older cousin is probably more interested than your son is, but typically when boys start looking for this type of material they do it with a friend or brother or relative. It is pretty typical. I had my brother and we sought out porn together in my young and his mid teens. Being curious and seeking out knowledge is fairly normal behavior and lets face it. When puberty hits the curiousity in both genders goes WAY up.

Net nanny and traffic stoppers are not as effective as they claim to be. don't get me wrong, they are GOOD at keeping out the vast majority but the sites that are blocked are FOUND by PEOPLE blocking the porn sites. There are NEW sites going up every day and there is no way to block them all short of unplugging the computer.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

can I just say I love the term spidey senses


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## Maddy9199 (Feb 8, 2006)

I wouldn't go for traditional porn because I feel like it is contributing to a system that oppresses women (I mean this in a totally abstract way, not just a 'it makes guys think that women should look this way' type thing, although I think that too). But that's just me.

However we do have several books lying around in boxes around here that we picked up at a regular bookstore that are about sex and have lots of pictures of people having sex in them (not too graphic though). But they are all absolutely normal people. You know, like the kama sutra type things? There are some pictures of older people, all different races and at least a general representation of body types and very few implants that I can see.

Just wanted to offer the suggestion in case you hadn't thought about it (i didn't read the thread _too_ carefully







) But this thread has inspired me to get those books out and leave them 'hidden' around in case my 11 yo is interested...


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

FWIW, I found the book "Pornified" by Pamela Paul REALLY interesting on this topic. She speaks from a social/media studies perspective about the impact porn has on viewers due to the sheer volume and easy availability of really extreme stuff online. She is NOT coming from a religious or political POV, and most of her book relies on personal interviews and surveys. One of her key points is that now that people are able to view more extreme porn, in far greater volume, from very young ages, it's a matter of societal interest and concern what, exactly, that does to a person's mind. Much like we should be concerned with consumerism and media saturation in other regards.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

How are we defining extreme?


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

It is possible that the older cousin brought porn to my son's attention. I will say that I don't have a problem with them spending time together as my nephew is a good kid. I like him a lot. I don't know how they handled it at his house other than he was forced to confront my parents face to face and apologize to them. I disagree with that.

But, honestly,I'm not sure what I'm going to do right now. Other than keep on keepin' on. I really don't feel totally comfortable getting a sub to playboy, just because I have a pre-teen, yk? I don't know. I'm sure something will come to me.... I'm pretty sure his dad has a sub to playboy and I can't control that at all, since I'm not married or living with him, yk?


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
How are we defining extreme?

I don't know, but there was a period of time in the 90s when I was constantly getting spam for horse shlong porn. Maybe that's not extreme to some, but I sure as hell never saw it in Playboy.

Also, I'm not going to argue with anyone about this but I have a firm opinion that re-enactments of violence are harmful, whether it's rape fantasy porn or "Law and Order SVU." Violent-themed porn is pretty common online from what I can tell. At least more common than it is in "softcore" publications that were the bulk of what was easily available when we were kids.


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## ~MoonGypsy~ (Aug 21, 2006)

You don't need to get a Sub. As embarassing as it might be, you can always pick up one or two magazines from bookstores. Your DS would probably stay pretty occupied with that much material for awhile. AND that gives you the ability to check out the magazines and determine if they meet your guidelines. Most of the bigger name mags don't even show actual "contact" these days, and are pretty soft.

Just switch the printouts with something you approve of. Nothing needs to be said, unless you want to. Maybe even leave a note along the lines of "Come find me if you want to talk about anything" or whatnot.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I just have to say I don't think that purchasing more porn is the answer, here. The kid in question is 11. It's natural for him to have curiousity, but I think more academic answers are in order at this point in his development. I don't think porn magazines are the kind of education a kid that young really needs--not to mention he's seen it all on the computer anyhow and that stuff is pretty formulaic. It's not an education at all!

It's also important to note that while it is commonplace for the law to be broken, it is highly illegal to supply a minor with pornography. It's considered a sex offense in many jurisdictions.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

not advocating the playboy route.

However.

It isn't like you can't preview the magazine first and cut out whatever you find unacceptable.

I don't think getting a playboy for the boy is the answer, at his age maxim/fhm should be fine to satisfy the curiousity at his age, and make the guidelines that his subscription ends the day you find more porn that is unacceptable?

Just an idea.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treereach* 
I wouldn't go for traditional porn because I feel like it is contributing to a system that oppresses women (I mean this in a totally abstract way, not just a 'it makes guys think that women should look this way' type thing, although I think that too). But that's just me.









: Don't support Playboy, people! Let's not give our money to an industry that is brainwashing us all with its misogynist propaganda. Why should Playboy define American sexuality?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treereach* 
However we do have several books lying around in boxes around here that we picked up at a regular bookstore that are about sex and have lots of pictures of people having sex in them (not too graphic though). But they are all absolutely normal people. You know, like the kama sutra type things? There are some pictures of older people, all different races and at least a general representation of body types and very few implants that I can see.

I think books are an excellent idea. It's totally normal for a preteen to be interested in sex, and I definitely agree with satisfying his curiosity with books. I highly recommend the book: *Changing Bodies, Changing Lives: Expanded Third Edition: A Book for Teens on Sex and Relationships*.


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## Punkymom (Sep 11, 2005)

Ok, here's my 2cents. I was 6 when I found my dad's stash of porn. 6. He had a subscription to PentHouse and Play Boy and he also had a variety of movies. I saw it all. My mom found out. She was devistated. My dad found out. He really didn't care. He would read his mags in the living room while he watched football on Sunday (we were church goers). I was basically addicted to porn until a few years ago and it continues to be a challenge for me. For me, it ruined my childhood. I thought about this stuff constantly. I wish that my barbies could have been just having a food fight or something, but instead they were having sex. In every position bc at the age of 7 I knew them all. For me, I really wish my mom had put her foot down and made my dad get rid of it. She wanted him to, but he wouldn't. I feel like I was ruled by that nightstand in my parent's room and would sneak these magazines out and read them, cover to cover. I really wish that they would have put their foot down and gotten rid of them. If he's that upset by looking at them, then it sounds like something he wants to stop doing. It's like drugs. You're addicted to them, but you want to stop. So you're caught and instead of getting help like you're seeking, you're told that it's perfectly normal and you're allowed to continue. If it were me, the decision would be that until he's at the age to make that decision on his own then he's not allowed to have it in the house. My brother also feels the same way about the porn, he knew about it and sneaked it, also. That's JMO and I could be off about him wanting to stop, but if he wants to stop, he's just having trouble stopping, he needs some help. Help him by not allowing him to see it at all. He'll be better off in the long run if that's what he's trying to say.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

Why should Playboy define American sexuality?
I'll agree with that, I don't think playboy should be the definer of sexuality. There is alot more to it than they cover, or at least the last time I read it which hasn't been recently.


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## Maddy9199 (Feb 8, 2006)

Geez, Maxim and FHM? Talk about misogynist...

Changing bodies looks like a pretty good one, Rayo. It's got alot of info in it. I'll have to pick it up.

I wouldn't worry too much, GWH. Even if you slipped up really bad and ended up making the wrong decision about how to handle this, your loving attention will still probably turn him into a decent human being. You seem to be doing great.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treereach* 
Geez, Maxim and FHM? Talk about misogynist...

That looks like a good one, Rayo. I'll have to pick it up.

I wouldn't worry too much, GWH. Even if you slipped up really bad and ended up making the wrong decision about how to handle this, your loving attention will still probably turn him into a decent human being. You seem to be doing great.









: to all that.

I wonder what publications people would be suggesting, if any, if we were discussing an 11 year old girl...


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treereach* 
Geez, Maxim and FHM? Talk about misogynist...

Changing bodies looks like a pretty good one, Rayo. It's got alot of info in it. I'll have to pick it up.

I wouldn't worry too much, GWH. Even if you slipped up really bad and ended up making the wrong decision about how to handle this, your loving attention will still probably turn him into a decent human being. You seem to be doing great.

Yes, because Maxim, with willing models is....

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source mi·sog·y·nis·tic (mĭ-sŏj'ə-nĭs'tĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj. Of or characterized by a hatred of women

Hatred of women... riiiiight.

That being said I was not the one to bring up playboy, I was giving alternatives. A young man who is hitting puberty and actively searching for porn will find it. Period. If you do not want it in your house there are compromises that can be made, or you can ban it. If you ban it that just means they will do it behind your back.

I would rather have an open honest relationship with my child than forbay something that they will lie to me about later.


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## Maddy9199 (Feb 8, 2006)

Well, Yoshua, I'm not going to get in another argument with you on this subject and ruin GWH's thread. I'm pretty sure all of us women are familiar with the definition of misogyny. And I am absolutely positive that Maxim and FHM are PRIMARY examples of it. But you will have to do a little more reading on women's issues to understand the concept. Just because men like to look at women naked and play with their bodies does not preclude hatred towards their actual person.

I'm going to take a nap now.







Good luck, GWH.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Punkymom* 
Ok, here's my 2cents. I was 6 when I found my dad's stash of porn. 6. He had a subscription to PentHouse and Play Boy and he also had a variety of movies. I saw it all. My mom found out. She was devistated. My dad found out. He really didn't care. He would read his mags in the living room while he watched football on Sunday (we were church goers). I was basically addicted to porn until a few years ago and it continues to be a challenge for me. For me, it ruined my childhood. I thought about this stuff constantly. I wish that my barbies could have been just having a food fight or something, but instead they were having sex. In every position bc at the age of 7 I knew them all. For me, I really wish my mom had put her foot down and made my dad get rid of it. She wanted him to, but he wouldn't. I feel like I was ruled by that nightstand in my parent's room and would sneak these magazines out and read them, cover to cover. I really wish that they would have put their foot down and gotten rid of them. If he's that upset by looking at them, then it sounds like something he wants to stop doing. It's like drugs. You're addicted to them, but you want to stop. So you're caught and instead of getting help like you're seeking, you're told that it's perfectly normal and you're allowed to continue. If it were me, the decision would be that until he's at the age to make that decision on his own then he's not allowed to have it in the house. My brother also feels the same way about the porn, he knew about it and sneaked it, also. That's JMO and I could be off about him wanting to stop, but if he wants to stop, he's just having trouble stopping, he needs some help. Help him by not allowing him to see it at all. He'll be better off in the long run if that's what he's trying to say.


I am sorry for everything you went through, truly am. But when a child shows curiousity in something I think it is time to inform them about the truth of they are curious about.

I am not advocating handing a preteen porn. far from it. But their curiousity is not going to stop just because you want it to.

I agree he will be better off in the long run if he managed to stay away from porn completely until his early/mid teens. And by porn I include maxim/fhm and basically any magizne defined as a 'gentlemens' magazine, which is a concept I never understood.... why they call them gentelmens magazines.

But once the can of worms is open, as you know, it is nearly impossible to close. I would have an in depth conversation with him about why you dislike the porn industry, which it sounds like you have already touched on a bit? and I would ask him what he wants to do about the situation and if he didn't feel comfortable talking about it maybe he could write it down?

This is a very awkward stage and adding the education about sexuality is confusing. And then putting 'fake sexuality' which is what I deem porn is even MORE confusing on top of that.

I don't have alot of advice because I have NOT been there, I know what my dad did with us worked and didn't work at the same time, but I was about a year older than your son and my brother was also there to talk to about it. I never would have talked to my parents about wanting to look at porn and I would have just told them what they wanted to hear instead of the truth at that age.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I feel kind of torn on this issue, and I'd be afraid of getting in trouble (with CPS or the police) if it was discovered that I let an 11yo view this stuff- and that would interfere with my own judgement about whether or not it was actually appropriate. I'd certainly take this opportunity to talk frankly with him about sex, what various sex acts are called (both slang and medical terms) and talk about STDs, pregnancy, and the relative risks of each with various sex acts. If he's old enough to view the acts performed, he should at the very least have the medical knowledge to go along with it.

My gut instints would be to talk to him about sex- what it is, what it isn't, and how pornography differs from "real sex." Talk about the emotional component. Talk about how men's and women's bodies are usually less "perfect looking" than those of porn stars. Talk about how not all women (and men) enjoy all the sex acts often portrayed in porn. Talk about how real men sometimes have problems getting or maintaining erections (including premature ejaculation)- it's just as unhealthy for him to compare himself to the men in porn as it is for him to expect all women to look and act like the women in porn.

And then I'd focus on how wonderful sex really can be, and how viewing too much porn can warp his expectations and make the real thing less wonderful when the time comes.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Yes, because Maxim, with willing models is....

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source mi·sog·y·nis·tic (mĭ-sŏj'ə-nĭs'tĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj. Of or characterized by a hatred of women

Hatred of women... riiiiight.

That being said I was not the one to bring up playboy, I was giving alternatives. A young man who is hitting puberty and actively searching for porn will find it. Period. If you do not want it in your house there are compromises that can be made, or you can ban it. If you ban it that just means they will do it behind your back.

I would rather have an open honest relationship with my child than forbay something that they will lie to me about later.

Yoshua, if you can honestly say that Maxim/FHM - which gleefully crow their sexist message from every page - are not misogynistic, then I am led to believe you either don't understand the prevalence of sexism in American media or are haven't done much studying on the issue.

I don't know what "forbay" means, so I will wait for you to clarify your last statement before I respond further.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Yoshua (and other posters), I really don't have the time and energy to get into a major debate about a serious subject either, especially since I can tell that I would have to explain a minority opinion, but I did want to share some INFORMATION with the op:

Anti-Porn Resource Center

Excerpts from Andrea Dworkin's book

My 18yodd has been to both sites. Neither she nor her bf have any use for porn, but that has not prevented them from having a very healthy, respectful, and enjoyable relationship.

Punkymom, typing in that post took a lot of courage. You are very brave.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Yoshua, if you can honestly say that Maxim/FHM - which gleefully crow their sexist message from every page - are not misogynistic, then I am led to believe you either don't understand the prevalence of sexism in American media or are haven't done much studying on the issue.

I don't know what "forbay" means, so I will wait for you to clarify your last statement before I respond further.

forbid, typed to fast.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Many people don't agree with Dworkin because of her definition of porn.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departme...460563,00.html


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
forbid, typed to fast.

Gotcha.

Well, like others have said, it's probably not the time or place to debate this issue, so I'll drop it.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Many people don't agree with Dworkin because of her definition of porn.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departme...460563,00.html

I'm not a big Dworkin fan myself.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noordinaryspider* 
Yoshua (and other posters), I really don't have the time and energy to get into a major debate about a serious subject either, especially since I can tell that I would have to explain a minority opinion, but I did want to share some INFORMATION with the op:

Anti-Porn Resource Center

Excerpts from Andrea Dworkin's book

My 18yodd has been to both sites. Neither she nor her bf have any use for porn, but that has not prevented them from having a very healthy, respectful, and enjoyable relationship.

Punkymom, typing in that post took a lot of courage. You are very brave.


Thank you for this.

Also, as usual Ruthla wins my "sensible poster" award. Go Ruth!


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

I would throw out the 'new' stuff you found and I agree with Ruthla that you should talk to him carefully about everything she suggested.

I don't think porn (or Maxim/FHM) is at all appropriate for an 11 yr old child and would not allow my child to own any of it or look at it in our home.

edited to add... GWH I think you handled everything wonderfully when you first discovered the porn and talked to your ds...especially considering how shocked you must have been at the time.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Wondering why playboy is something to consider, but not maxin/fhm. I have to admit I have no clue about maxim/fhm, so that might explain why I am missing why those are worse than playboy.

OP -- personally I wouldn't provide any of the magazines accidently or otherwise to my 11.5 year old. My son has been battling a online porn addiction since he turned 10. He has in the last few months come to me and asked me to provide more blockers to help him along. He gets frustrated with himself that he can't seem to stop viewing it. He goes in spurts though, where he isn't viewing it at all, then gets started again.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Sigh. This is not what I wanted to start. I am not going to purposefully provide a _Playboy_ subscription. I really really thought deeply about it and found that I couldn't accept that. It didn't feel right to me. I believe that my son, given love and understanding by myself and his father, will be fine. I believe his father does get a _Men's Health_ subscription and there are plenty of pictures for my son's perusal.

To all of you who have provided information and insight, thank you.

And for some reason, this quote struck me as funny:

Quote:

Wondering why playboy is something to consider, but not maxin/fhm. I have to admit I have no clue about maxim/fhm, so that might explain why I am missing why those are worse than playboy
Um, cause the articles in _Playboy_ are better? *sorry couldn't resist*


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## txgal (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I'm wondering if part of the confusion with your son is that in the first place you gave him a choice to keep the pictures. I would like to see more parental leadership here. I think he needs to hear that his curiosity is natural, cool, etc. but that sex is about a lot more than these pictures and that it can be a negative thing to have his views of women, his thoughts about sex, etc. be tied up with hard core images.

There are pictures that if put in a person's head early (and strongly reinforced - what could be a bigger reinforcement than an orgasm) are hard to get over. There is some really icky, really nasty stuff online that frankly I'd rather not have a kid see. 11 is a kid. Kids may have sexual feelings but that doesn't make them anything other than kids who need guidance and help to make healthy choices.

In some ways this conversation is reminding a lot of conversations about spanking in some circles where we hear "but I turned out fine" and lots of rationalizations and justifications that what parents did was correct. I think it is possible to say instead that while many people turn out just fine viewing porn as children, it isn't the best way to learn about sex and one thing we can do as parents is to provide safe places for our kids.









:


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

I first learned the birds and the bees when I stumbled across an anatomy book. Maybe something like that would be more appropriate? Or a sex ed book? I really hate the way porn portrays women and I don't think the full knowledge of what porn is, isn't, and shouldn't be comes much later in life. My highschool boyfriend's mom bought him Maxims and Playboys and I ALWAYS felt inferior when they came in the mail. I was always very sensitive about how he treated me soon after, I felt like I was being compared... even if I wasn't.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Organicavocado* 
I first learned the birds and the bees when I stumbled across an anatomy book. Maybe something like that would be more appropriate? Or a sex ed book? I really hate the way porn portrays women and I don't think the full knowledge of what porn is, isn't, and shouldn't be comes much later in life. *My highschool boyfriend's mom bought him Maxims and Playboys and I ALWAYS felt inferior when they came in the mail. I was always very sensitive about how he treated me soon after, I felt like I was being compared... even if I wasn't*.

That sentance gave me another view. Thank you.

I didn't think of the direct affect it would have on their current signficant other...

I don't think it would change my stance very much, but that bit of insight has affected it. Thank you.


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

I would just like to add I grew up in a house with a entertainment room in the basement. It was a finished room in our unfinished basement, had a door, and surround sound, and a big tv, and cable, every channel.

We would sneak down, us 4 girls, and watch it ALL the time, starting from maybe 3rd grade on. We would switch the channel if anyone came, and switch it before we turned the tv off so we wouldnt get in trouble... Not because we enjoyed it sexually, but because it was interesting.

It was hardcore sex porn we watched and saw. I STILL have EVERY picture or scenario I ever saw ENGRAVED in my head. I know exactly what happened in every show on those channels. It sick, and wrong, and I wish I didnt. I HATE thinking about those things.

Sex is a burning lust in every one of us. Lets not feed the fire. His innocents is going to be gone before we know it. Young men with porn problems from a young age always seem to be the ones who murder women with pantyhose. I have watched and read more true-crime novels then I can say. They ALWAYS were weird sexually, from a very young age. Please take it away now!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
Young men with porn problems from a young age always seem to be the ones who murder women with pantyhose. I have watched and read more true-crime novels then I can say. They ALWAYS were weird sexually, from a very young age. Please take it away now!

Nice to know my son will grow up to be a man who murders women with pantyhose.







:







:

You should read less "true-crime" novels that are designed to sell to an audience and more about the actual research into what drives these men to murder.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
Young men with porn problems from a young age always seem to be the ones who murder women with pantyhose. I have watched and read more true-crime novels then I can say. They ALWAYS were weird sexually, from a very young age. Please take it away now!

Correlation does not equal causation. People who commit sexual crime might well be more likely to get their thrills from watching porn, but I doubt seeing porn is going to make an otherwise 'normal' (for the lack of a better word) person commit pantyhose murder.

I should hope most kids would be media-critical enough to understand that porn is no more real than anything else you see on the TV. But then again, if adults think true-crime novels are the way to get an education about the psychology of sex offenders, what chance do kids have?


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

GWH, this is an interesting topic. Thank you so much for sharing, I have a 12 year old son and though this hasn't come up personally yet, it's good to hear some of the info here.

I for one think your doing an amazing job at working through this







you're trying to be respectful, allow him to explore and still guide him - what more can a mama do?

On the order of privacy, both of my kids have a night stand with drawers. It's always been know that these drawers are private. They may keep journals, diary's and other items in there (I do ask them not to keep food though). I've made a commitment to them that I will not ever, ever go through it - it's their private place for personal things. My mother not only read my diary, she wrote me back in it telling me to be nicer to my mother and even signing it "your diary". Privacy is VERY important to me. I do respect their privacy in their rooms, but they both have severe allergies and I do have to get in there and vacuumed often, so if playboys are between the mattresses, I'm going to run across them - that's where the drawers come in handy.

On the other hand, I do let my kids know that what they say and do on the computer is not private. Ds is now IMing and the rule is, I know who is on their list and I get to look over their shoulder any time. I also review their history - that too is no secrete. I'm strict on internet safety, but I do let them know that if they want something private, the nightstand is always an option.

As for porn, I think what your doing is perfect. You didn't shame or degrade him and your keeping the lines of communication open - thank you, I will keep all this in mind if/when it comes up in our lives.

Your son is lucky to have a mom so willing to explore this and be sensitive of his feelings


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
I don't know how they handled it at his house other than he was forced to confront my parents face to face and apologize to them. I disagree with that.

Okay, I'll bite. Why was it wrong to make a 13yo apologize for abusing the trust his grandparents had in him by downloading porn via their computer? They could get in trouble for having provided (even inadvertently) porn to a minor and porn sites are notorious for bringing loads of bugs and viruses along with them.


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## eternamariposa (Mar 27, 2007)

(NAKing, sorry for no caps







)

i think that finding this porn could be a blessing in disguise. i know that as we get older we forget what it was like to be the age of our children and every generation is different than the one before it. maybe this is a segway into initial or more in depth talks with your son about sex.

startling, tmi confession...although my husband and i have only been with each other, we started having sex when he was fifteen and *brace yourself* i had just turned thirteen. we had been together exclusively for over a year but we both agree that we were in _way_ over our heads. my parents had no idea. i won't say that all of my friends were active too but some of them were, hickies and foreplay were fairly common.

we had to have chaperons if we went out, couldn't be in the house alone together, cerfew, etc. we always found a way we think that we just took sex to lightly because:

1. pregnancy and std were "all we had too worry about". we used condums and were virgins when we met so we were 'safe'

2. no understanding of risking our relationship by moving too quickly

3. we had no sexual morals
*when is sex ok
*waiting for marriage/committment
*no capacity for healthy accountability, if we did get preggo

4. no concept of how our current sexual behavior could impact our future relationships.

my suggestion as a 22 year old new mama with my own personal sexual history that i described, is to try to guide your son to establish a healthy sexual character. one that understands things like monogomy, the gravity of std and pregnacy as very possible consequences, give him a safe haven for asking questions and seeking advice even if it isn't you personally, talk about the risks of addiction to pornography. i would also be interested to know about sexual activities of his friends because at that age your friends are the frame of reference you use to decide what is normal.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm feeling a bit raw, so bear with me here.

I had no idea that my parents could get in trouble for "supplying porn" to my son. They would never do that.

As for making someone apologize? It's punitive, it's horifically embarassing, and it's degrading. To apologize to both grandparents (grandmother included) is just awful, IMO. To apologize to his grand_father_, alone, to whom the computers belonged, would be enough.

Thank you again to those who have provided me with concrete information. I appreciate it.


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

If my son did that he would be appologizing to BOTH (It IS his grandmothers house also, and he completley disrespected your parents trust.). And would be going through other forms of punishment. Pornography will not be tolerated in my house.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

GWH - just wanted to say that I think you have handled this very well. My oldest is not even 6yo yet, but I assume this is in the future. I hope I am as respectful and sensitive as you have been.

I am pretty horrified at the suggestions that he apologize to his grandparents. If you think hardcore porn might traumatize him, imagine having to talk to your grandparents about hardcore porn!

We don't force apologies in general, but even if we did, this would be a situation where I would probably make an exception. He's 11, he's entering a new world, he's probably confused and not sure of what is okay or not. He's not some evil child out to hurt his grandparents. It just happened to be their computer that was available.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
If my son did that he would be appologizing to BOTH (It IS his grandmothers house also, and he completley disrespected your parents trust.). And would be going through other forms of punishment. Pornography will not be tolerated in my house.

I am guessing from the age of your children, you have not dealt with this particular issue at this time.

I would like to offer my experience. Admitting the addiction is the hardest part, I wouldn't even dream of forcing my child to apologize to anyone for it. My oldest was 10 when he discovered online porn. It was another year before (and four/five incidents of repeatedly viewing over that time) he was able to even admit freely that he was the one viewing the stuff. He is now 11.5 (12 next month) and just in the last six months come to realize just how difficult it is to stay away from porn.

We tried punishment. It just serves to hide it temporarily. We removed computer privileges and put them on lockdown when he was on. He would do well for a couple of months and then relapse. It would start out accidently almost b/c he would click an ad on a site that was for his age group and then it would go from there. He would go undiscovered for a couple of days and then we would talk to him about it. Punishments are not going to accomplish anything. We realized that he will eventually not be with us 24/7 and he needs to learn to censor himself which is really hard to do.

We are six months into no porn and he has even come to me a few times saying hard it is not to go to these sites. He requested more stringent blockers to help him stay clear. He has had to learn to co-exist with the computer and not access these sites. There was no punishment that could make that happen. It had to come from him and his desire to not view the porn.

Pornography is not tolerated in our house either, but you need to realize that communication, not punishment, is the key to helping your child. They can't fix a problem if they aren't given the tools to do so. By punishment, you aren't teaching a solution, you are putting a band-aid on a what could become a very serious problem later.


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 

Pornography is not tolerated in our house either, but you need to realize that communication, not punishment, is the key to helping your child. They can't fix a problem if they aren't given the tools to do so. By punishment, you aren't teaching a solution, you are putting a band-aid on a what could become a very serious problem later.

I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.


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## Pepperdove (Apr 13, 2007)

My DH actually still struggles with online porn, starting from when he was a young teen, so I have touchy fears about how I will handle it with DS (not that it will come up anytime soon, he's still pretty young!)

He was spending our money on live porn chat, which is where I had my really big fit. I know all men love pictures. And, hey, women look good, right? I like attractive women too. But it was keeping him late at work, and it was taking money away from MY family, and it was too much. I WIsh it was Maxim. At least Maxim has amusing articles.

Point being -- I know DH's parents were very don't ask-don't tell about many things in his youth - porn being one of them - that stuck around to make his late teen years and even his life now much more difficult and risky than it needed to be. I wish sometimes that they would have been just a little more strict.

I think you handled your situation really well! It sounds like your son is comfortable talking to you, and that's huge. But just keep talking, you know? Don't just stop noticing what's happening in your house (like my ILs).


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.


I don't want to totally sidetrack this thread, but I actually have a physical reaction to hearing parents say this - all the hairs on my arms stand up and my stomach does a little flip. I am all for good manners and politeness and respect, but I could not disagree more with this statement.

While I don't believe you can demand respect even if you wanted to, I most certainly DO NOT want my kids to automatically respect anyone in "authority." I can't imagine a more dangerous lesson to teach them.

False apologies do not equal respect. And forcing shame and humiliation onto a child is not respectful, nor is it good manners.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

i have a baby asleep on me, and of course i don't have pre-teens yet, but wanted to mention that i saw a great kama sutra book at borders recently with full color photos. the people were normal-ish (a little thin, but normal), and if i remember correctly, multi-racial. i think something like that, plus the joy of sex and some nice feminist literature like cunt







laying around might be perfectly acceptable and not scary for everyone.there's gotta be some great sex-positive stuff out there, right? i know i had a "naked ladies" coloring book, which was pretty fun. what do you think of that? my inclination towards this is b/c it seems like this is likely going to come up agaain and maybe it's better to circumvent it with proactive materials that present a healthier outlook on sex, yk?

hey, and i found this website, which seems to be the only sex-positive sex education site for pre-teens, teens, and young adults - probably worth checking out: http://www.scarleteen.com/


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.

I understand the respect issue. Do you really think that a young boy, who is embarrassed about what he has done, is going to feel at all comfortable admitting to his grandparents what he has done and then apologize for it. I think forcing an apology does nothing but foster resentment. There is very little good that comes from forcing someone to apologize, good manners or not. It's a matter of being respectful to your child as much as it a matter of him being respectful to adults. Why would he give respect if he afforded none? It's easy to fake something, force something, or make something happen for the sake of manners, but in the end it doesn't benefit anyone involved.

I get that the grandparents could have gotten into trouble, but the forced apology really isn't a solution. Maybe, after time has passed, he can come to the decision to apologize on his own. It took my son a year to be able to admit to me freely that the porn was something he had viewed. We have never forced him to apologize for it, he did that on his own a year later. It has helped in his process of dealing with his addiction, to apologize to us. In the end, you can't force a person to give up an addiction. They have to come to that decision on their own and realize the harm that could come from the addiction. Forcing an apology, punishing, and embarassing a child into front of loved ones is not going to help in the process. It's going to teach the child to get better about hiding it.

An 11/12 year is quite capable of learning the to cover their tracks or delete inappropriate sites. On one occassion, my son was asked for his password/username for a pokemon site he frequented. I wanted to check his messages for the message board where he traded pokemon with others. He was on my laptop deleting messages as I was on my main computer checking them. He was afraid he would get into trouble for the inappropriateness of some of them. That was his reaction and he had never been openingly shamed or forced to apologize for anything he had ever done on that site. The only thing we had done when he posted things that were not appropriate was to eliminate his access to the site for a set period of time. He was embarassed that I would read and he was afraid to disappoint me. In the end, he did decided that restriction of his access to the message board was a good idea while he learned to censor himself. That was over a year ago and he has since regained his privilege, but he rarely goes on the site b/c he doesn't want to tempt himself (his words).


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I don't want to totally sidetrack this thread, but I actually have a physical reaction to hearing parents say this - all the hairs on my arms stand up and my stomach does a little flip. I am all for good manners and politeness and respect, but I could not disagree more with this statement.

While I don't believe you can demand respect even if you wanted to, I most certainly DO NOT want my kids to automatically respect anyone in "authority." I can't imagine a more dangerous lesson to teach them.

False apologies do not equal respect. And forcing shame and humiliation onto a child is not respectful, nor is it good manners.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
he needs to learn to censor himself which is really hard to do.

<snip>

He requested more stringent blockers to help him stay clear.

How is the use of blockers teaching him to self-censor?

As for apologies... I have a 15yo, so yes, we've been through this. He knows I monitor his online activities, and he's cool with that - mostly because I don't freak out at what I find. We talk about which sites are appropriate and which aren't. As well as under what circumstances. Some sites are okay for him to access at home, but I strongly recommend he not access them at school, his Dad's, grandma's, etc., and why. Part of the why is that it's disrespectful (in this particular situation because it would be offensive to his grandparents, open them up to potential legal problems, and potentially cause their computer(s) harm). And when he disrespects others (especially those who warrant respect - like our family members), he will be expected to apologize. The (few) times he's had to, he's understood what he's done and why it was wrong, and the apology was heartfelt. He knows it's going to be hard to do, but that I'll be with him, and he gets it done.

I don't understand why it's okay to embarrass your parents, but the child needs to be coddled and protected from feeling any shame or remorse for his/her behavior. Sorry.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
How is the use of blockers teaching him to self-censor?

He used those at times when he felt he couldn't censor himself. We put them in place for awhile, then removed them. It went in waves for awhile. The blockers haven't been there for several months now. He needed those until he was more confident in his ability to censor himself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger*
As for apologies... I have a 15yo, so yes, we've been through this. He knows I monitor his online activities, and he's cool with that - mostly because I don't freak out at what I find. We talk about which sites are appropriate and which aren't. As well as under what circumstances. Some sites are okay for him to access at home, but I strongly recommend he not access them at school, his Dad's, grandma's, etc., and why. Part of the why is that it's disrespectful (in this particular situation because it would be offensive to his grandparents, open them up to potential legal problems, and potentially cause their computer(s) harm). And when he disrespects others (especially those who warrant respect - like our family members), he will be expected to apologize. The (few) times he's had to, he's understood what he's done and why it was wrong, and the apology was heartfelt. He knows it's going to be hard to do, but that I'll be with him, and he gets it done.

I don't understand why it's okay to embarrass your parents, but the child needs to be coddled and protected from feeling any shame or remorse for his/her behavior. Sorry.

It isn't a matter of coddling, it's a matter of forced apologies for the sake of manners are rarely heartfelt. The apologies from my son were heartfelt b/c he made the decision on his own when he was ready to apologize.

Forcing someone to apologize is not an apology, it's lip service.

My son felt plenty of shame and remorse without me adding to it and he was far from coddled. We chose our course of action b/c it was the right action for us. I saw no need to further his feelings of shame/guilt/remorse, he was already feeling those things. He owned up to the issue and made restitution in his timeframe and of his own accord, not b/c I deemed it the way to go for sake of manners.

I think sometimes parents (myself included) get so embarassed by the actions of our kids that we force apologies to make us look/feel better. It isn't a matter of the child doing it b/c they feel it is the way to go, it's about mom and dad wanting to look like they are on top of the situation.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
It isn't a matter of coddling, it's a matter of forced apologies for the sake of manners are rarely heartfelt. The apologies from my son were heartfelt b/c he made the decision on his own when he was ready to apologize.

Forcing someone to apologize is not an apology, it's lip service.

My son felt plenty of shame and remorse without me adding to it.

I do agree that apologize should be something felt, not just words. As a child, I remember many times when I was forced to apologize and I was NOT feeling remorse or shame - I was feeling humiliated and angry.

That being said, I do think that talking to our children and explaining the situation and how it must have made others feel is helpful as long as its done to guide and not to shame them further.

I'm often amazed at the love and compassion my 12 year old gives freely without prompting. It touches me deeply when he dose this because I know he feels it in his heart.

I'm all for manners and treating others with respect. I try to instill my values in my children every day by living the life I want them to live, admitting when I've done something wrong and apologizing. Our kids ARE looking at us and learning from us every day.

GWH, Your son sounds like a very healthy child. It sounds like you were very shocked when you first discovered this and reacted in shock - who wouldn't? But I think you responded and explored this beautifully. Your son is very lucky to have such a compassionate and open mom


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jacque Savageau* 
That being said, I do think that talking to our children and explaining the situation and how it must have made others feel is helpful as long as its done to guide and not to shame them further.

I completely agree and I believe this is what will prompt a heartfelt apology as opposed to a forced apology. We explain the other person's point of view and their feeling, which will typically prompt an apology from the one who caused the hurt. I know my oldest is quicker to admit his mistakes and apologize. My middle two kids have a bit more trouble admitting their error and the hurt they caused b/c they feel very badly that their action had those results (typically unintended results). It takes my middle son a good hour sometimes before he is able to apologize and admit his mistake.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you might want to review your idea about authority/respect/politeness as your children grow - an overly punitive attitude like the one you've expressed here, coupled with the idea that children WILL do this and WILL do that, and the notion that respect and remorse can be forced, is putting your foot on a long, hard road that will lead to much heartache, in my opinion.


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## Vypros (Apr 10, 2007)

He's almost 12. The one thing I remember about that time was this INSANE drive for sex. It was uncanny how much I thought about sex and wanted to see females naked.

You're son is perfectly normal. My advice, as a guy, is for you to put up the front that it's not ok to him and make him get rid of it when you catch, but don't shame him for it.

So long as he's not getting into weirdo porn, like S&M or "rape" stuff, then your son will turn out perfectly normal. If he starts going down THAT road, THEN you need to worry and maybe even set up counselling for him because he has a problem.

If it's normal porn, I simply wouldn't ENCOURAGE it, and I'd make it tough as heck for him to get to, but I wouldn't shame him over it or make him feel like it's wrong to have these urges. They are perfectly normal for a boy his age.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Lisa, let me start by saying that I did not read the whole thread but I, of course, have some thoughts on this subject. Your son, as others have said and you point out, is an amazing person who has a totally natural curiousity and limited means to explore those interests. US American culture is very sex negative and I really commend you for trying not to pass this legacy to your son. You are navigating some tough territory with grace, IMO.









Here are my thoughts: I would NOT buy something like playboy or what not because those mags really just duplicate the problematic images of women you mention in your first post and they are produced by rather awful companies as well. That said, helping him to find outlets for his curiosity seems like a very healthy and reasonable goal. Erotica books with reasonable content and books about sex (like guides or the like) are a great source of info for younger people and have been loved by snoping teens for years)! Reasonable materials can be found through great feminist websites like blowfish dot com and babeland dot com and also good vibrations.

That said, my son is obsessed with the nudey magazines in the window at a bodega on the corner - he is not even 5 and thinks I should buy him Black Man







I imagine I will have my hands very full in a few years!


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## Vypros (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MSAX* 
Here are my thoughts: I would NOT buy something like playboy or what not because those mags really just duplicate the problematic images of women you mention in your first post and they are produced by rather awful companies as well. That said, helping him to find outlets for his curiosity seems like a very healthy and reasonable goal. Erotica books with reasonable content and books about sex (like guides or the like) are a great source of info for younger people and have been loved by snoping teens for years)! Reasonable materials can be found through great feminist websites like blowfish dot com and babeland dot com and also good vibrations.


Please, oh please, don't do that to the child. There's nothing wrong with playboy. And there's nothing wrong your child's sexual curiosity. I know that "feminist" sites just aren't in tune with men, and as a result your son could get really screwed up. Also, men have almost NO desire for erotica books. None, whatsoever. So erotica books, while considered almost "porn" for a female, does very little for a man.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

little reminder, we aren't talking about a man and mastebatory habits, we are talking about a curious soon to be 12 year old.

educating is enough at this age, and books about the human body/sex from a clinical aspect are good references for PARENTS to read (imo) to help educate their children. I wouldn't advise just handing the books over. If the boy is really just looking for a visual stimulous I would not recomend porn or nudity at this age, but teen mags/mens magazines should suffice for curiousities sake.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vypros* 
Please, oh please, don't do that to the child. There's nothing wrong with playboy. And there's nothing wrong your child's sexual curiosity. I know that "feminist" sites just aren't in tune with men, and as a result your son could get really screwed up. Also, men have almost NO desire for erotica books. None, whatsoever. So erotica books, while considered almost "porn" for a female, does very little for a man.

Oh please, oh please don't think you know so much as to suggest that A. you know what this class of people you call "men" all want and like and B. that exposing boys of feminist porn instead of mainstream porn is somehow going to screw them up. I am highly trained in human sexuality and while there are some interesting ideological responses to feminist eroticism, some and some cute folk wisdom about 'the sexes' in your response, there is nothing scientific, nothing factual, and nothing of any merit in your response.

We are talking about an 11 year old boy here - not what you or men you know like to get off with. More power too you, I am cool with adults doing whatever they like. I am suggesting that such mags have the same imagines the OP had protested to in the first place and that she would possibly be better served by simply having some other books around that, should he be curious, he could find and loot at. Certianly my healthy, happy and well-adjusted 3 older brothers did precisely this at that age and guess what, they survived the 'screw up' potential you suggest.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

I've read only the first page but I wanted to reply to you so once I'm done I will finish reading so sorry IA if I'm repeating.

My son is now 15 and I've been where you are now. At 11 they are VERY curious and even though I had/ have a very open relationship with my son there is only so much he will willing talk about and well masturbation and porn fall into that category LOL!

IMO blocking the computer for porn is smart since there is some really really inappropriate stuff online. Oh and I do want to mention that I caught DS and a friend looking at porn online so I've BTDT and know how you feel. I have also found naked mag pics under DS mattress and he was about 12. I was freaked but I kept that part to myself. I also thought it was normal that at 11 he was starting to be curious and I also knew that masturbation was either already happening or was just around the corner. I took the pics as an opportunity to discuss masturbation and sex in general and really didn't talk all that much about the fact that he had pictures KWIM. I will say that as I came across mag pics I did throw them away but stopped doing that when he was 14....this was at the request of my husband. He really was uncomfortable with how I may have been making DS feel by doing that as he really believed that what DS was doing was normal and didn't want us sending a message that DS was dirty or bad.

I speak with DS regularly about all aspects of sex.


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## Vypros (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MSAX* 
Oh please, oh please don't think you know so much as to suggest that A. you know what this class of people you call "men" all want and like and B. that exposing boys of feminist porn instead of mainstream porn is somehow going to screw them up. I am highly trained in human sexuality and while there are some interesting ideological responses to feminist eroticism, some and some cute folk wisdom about 'the sexes' in your response, there is nothing scientific, nothing factual, and nothing of any merit in your response.

We are talking about an 11 year old boy here - not what you or men you know like to get off with. More power too you, I am cool with adults doing whatever they like. I am suggesting that such mags have the same imagines the OP had protested to in the first place and that she would possibly be better served by simply having some other books around that, should he be curious, he could find and loot at. Certianly my healthy, happy and well-adjusted 3 older brothers did precisely this at that age and guess what, they survived the 'screw up' potential you suggest.

While I am a man, I was also once an 11 year old boy, so I think that qualifies more more than any amount of "training" you've had in the area. Unless you are male, of course.

I'm not the one suggesting giving him ANYTHING. I was saying to make it as hard as possible for him to find this stuff, and then let him find what has to on his own. He doesn't need books or websites to learn about sexuality. Sexuality is the ONE thing that comes natural. His desires are natural at this age, and his curiosities are natural. Feminist propaganda is NOT natural. I've read some of it and personally I found it to be so anti-man that it's ridiculous.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. *He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect*.

I will not. I respect my child too much to scar him for life for doing what is natural to any human being. Denying that we have curiosity is lying to ourselves.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vypros* 
While I am a man, I was also once an 11 year old boy, so I think that qualifies more more than any amount of "training" you've had in the area. Unless you are male, of course.

Coz male sexuality is so mystical and foreign that us little women could never hope to understand it. Even if we have a university degree in the subject and are sexual beings ourselves.







:


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

And, again, thank you all for your kind replies. I am very respectful of my son's blossoming sexuality and hope to teach him to embrace it rather than see it as wrong. However, I want him to have age-appropriate exposures (no pun intended) to help him feel comfortable in his journey. I guess he'll have to content himself with our (my husband's and my) collection of books that he may or may not find... depending on how hard he looks. They're not "hidden", lol. He just may need to look for them. LOL.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vypros* 
Also, men have almost NO desire for erotica books. None, whatsoever. So erotica books, while considered almost "porn" for a female, does very little for a man.

That is completely untrue. Do you know any men?


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
I will not. I respect my child too much to scar him for life for doing what is natural to any human being. Denying that we have curiosity is lying to ourselves.


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
we have to remember that this is a delicate time in a boy's life

I agree. And porn experienced this early in a child's life can actually be experienced as sexual abuse. It can also prevent him from experiencing fulfilling relational sex later in his life.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

And I am doing my best to protect him. He will be undergoing therapy within the next few weeks (not for this, but other issues) and I'm hoping that having a 100% safe person with which to speak will help him work through these issues and help reach a point where he will have a fulfilling sexual relationship later in life.


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

I just shared this thread w/ my dh, and he was surprised MDC-ers were OK w/ porn. (DH, pointing to the top of my screen) "NATURAL family living! Porn is FAKE!"


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

sigh. the _attraction_ to porn is natural. not all porn is fake. but i'm not really into discussing semantics.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

GWH ---

I just stumbled onto this thread (from the main page) and I have read it all the way through --- my word, the variation of responses!!

I just wanted to say you sound like a very caring, loving mama who loves her son so much to be reading and posting and finding a solution that meets the needs of everyone involved --- I applaud you for that.

I also want to reassure you. I think a lot of people are bringing in their own baggage and past experiences and hang-ups and whatnot to this thread and while I don't fault people for that -- what are we but the make-up of all we have lived? -- I do have to say that I think some people are taking this to a far too desperate and serious degree than neccessary.

I am not a fan of porn for various reasons that have already been beaten to death on MDC







but what I AM an advocate of, is exactly how you are handling the situation -- treating your son's curiosity and blossoming sexual desires and feelings as completely NORMAL AND HEALTHY! I applaud how you handled this situation and how you chose the highest of all grounds to take -- the one where you assumed positive intent in your son and who he is, where you remained calm and loving and non-judgmental, where you are open to discussion and to respecting privacy.. where you are not afraid to set reasonable boundaries as to what is acceptable and comfortable to you in your home AS WELL as respecting his curiosity and natural sexual feelings and growing interest in those things...

You sound like a WONDERFUL mama who is on the absolute right track in this situation.

As far as my personal opinion, I really like the route of having some books and things accessible that both meet his need to see some skin, but meet your comfort level. I remember thumbing through my mom's "Joy Of Sex" book at that age with my older sister with facination (cmon it was the early 80's, that book was hot then) -- it didn't damage me for life! They were just sketches of normal looking, hairy people







in various (pretty vanilla and run of the mill) sexual positions and whatnot. Things of that nature...

If you feel comfortable with something of that nature or comparable... like something sort of health-based but also shows what he is curious to see, representing the type of people (different colors, shapes etc) you are comfortable with him seeing -- might be a good, healthy, mutually agreeable solution for everyone involved.

For what it is worth, no one had porn lying around our house (except my mom's bedside table drawer *Joy Of Sex* book), we weren't abused and my barbies had sex with eachother too...







... so you don't have to be damaged or abused or all messed up for Ken to want a booty call once in a while...









Anyway, I am now a nearly 30 year old, married, sexually healthy woman and my mom didn't handle sexual curiosity nearly as well as you are -- she didn't it handle it in a *dirty and wrong* type way, more like a "quit readin' my darn book.. it is in the drawer for a reason!" type way







...

Anyway I just wanted to offer my support for this delicate situation. I admire the respect you have for your son and also your ability to stay calm and reasonable in what can probably be a very uncomfortable situation at times!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mlec* 
I just shared this thread w/ my dh, and he was surprised MDC-ers were OK w/ porn. (DH, pointing to the top of my screen) "NATURAL family living! Porn is FAKE!"

I am not sure the majority of MDC members are OK with porn.

I do believe a majority of MDC members feel the attraction to the porn is natural. Boys/Girls are interested in the opposite sex at some point in their lives. I think that with the technology age it is much easier to access porn than in years past (when you had to "find" your dad/neighbor/brother/uncle/etc's stash of magazines.

I think it is completely natural to be curious about sex and porn is one avenue that shows it (even though I am not OK with porn).


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mlec* 
I just shared this thread w/ my dh, and he was surprised MDC-ers were OK w/ porn. (DH, pointing to the top of my screen) "NATURAL family living! Porn is FAKE!"

I would like to respectfully point out that not everyone feels the same way about porn, and that does not make one "non-NFL" - nor does it make you MORE NFL if you are anti-porn.

The purpose of pornography is to aid a person in releasing sexual energy, which is, in my opinion, perfectly natural.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mlec* 
I just shared this thread w/ my dh, and he was surprised MDC-ers were OK w/ porn. (DH, pointing to the top of my screen) "NATURAL family living! Porn is FAKE!"

I only like amateur porn.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

and that is all natural, as far as I know. Thank you Captain Crunchy, Houdini, and Mama Windmill for your kindness and information in this thread.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I would like to respectfully point out that not everyone feels the same way about porn, and that does not make one "non-NFL" - nor does it make you MORE NFL if you are anti-porn.

The purpose of pornography is to aid a person in releasing sexual energy, which is, in my opinion, perfectly natural.

The purpose of pornography is to make money for the distributor. Everything else is a side benefit.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

I hope this isn't beating the issue to death (and GWH you've been really patient and trying to figure out a good way to handle this without doing harm).

I was thinking about art sketches/books where people actually look like real, everyday people. A lot of my issue with hardcore porn being viewed by children has to do with expectation later in life. Would they expect their partners to look/act like the actors in porn? I would think yes...

I'm not at all suggesting that you buy different porn magazines and give them to him







and I understand that you have other books laying around...maybe have some of the really beautiful and natural pictures of real women and you talk to him about his curiosity and how normal it is, but that you want him to understand that some of the 'hardcore' stuff is 'special effects'







and that if he is curious about what women look like maybe he should check out such and such book that you've put in the living room/bathroom/his room whatever and for him to feel free to come to you if he has questions or whatever....would that be too geeky?

I really don't know, I'm trying to help!


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Thank you so much. I'm so tired right now I can't see straight (and I'm on texas time). I'll be back tomorrow to think some more.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
The purpose of pornography is to make money for the distributor. Everything else is a side benefit.

I think it's the other way around - people seek sexual gratification through visual stimuli, and the side effect is that some people make money from it.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Coz male sexuality is so mystical and foreign that us little women could never hope to understand it. Even if we have a university degree in the subject and are sexual beings ourselves.







:

i was on board with ya till I read this.... it is kinda condescending.

Understanding someone elses sexuality is a very hard thing, and I can attest that I know of NO man that truly understands a womans sexuality. I just assumed that it was just as hard for a woman to truly understand ours.

I do not think, and this is only an opinion, that someone of the opposite sex cant effectively teach you about your emotions during this phase in a young persons life without quite a bit of difficulty. I personally would have no idea how to have these conversations with a daughter and from talking to my significant other about how to handle the situations with our son I have come to believe that she would be as inept at that as I would with a girl... That is not an insult by any means, I just accept the strengths and weaknesses we both have.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Great thread and very thought provoking. I was talking with DH about this topic last night. He told me about a time when his Dad caught him taping a movie from "Skinemax." He still remembers the title...."Snowbunnies." You know the ones, from the early 80's. No plot, a little bit of boob, rated R. He says his Dad was furious, embarassed him (shamed) and was forced to aplogize to his Mom. (Ugh) This reaction was par for the course for DH growing up.

*makes a sweeping generalization* This repression (IMO) contributed to creating an increased fixation on sex and thus, porn for DH. Good thing we met...I have a great collection.









Lots of points made already in this thread about current Internet stuff vs. a classic Playboy or whatever. I agree 100%. As a couple, we often enjoy looking at videos from 10 (okay 15-20) years ago. The women look like humans and there's just something cooler about them. I would NOT want my DD exposed to extreme images until much, much later.

I don't remember who posted about men not liking books or erotic literature....ever heard of Penthouse Letters? I'm sure they're 99% untrue, but still marketed at men, yes?

GWH, your natural reaction to your son was so wonderful and natural. It's clear he has a thoughtful and intuitive Mom, doing her best.

I will check back on this thread in a week....off to Florida for some fun and sun!


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## DigitalSuze (Dec 20, 2005)

nak

Interesting thread. So, my 11-year-old and I were driving home one evening (all of our big talks happen in the car). Suddenly, he says, "I have to tell you something, but I really don't want to!" After a bit of encouragement and assurance, and following several minutes of extreme hesitation on his part (and serious worry on mine), he finally blurted at the top of his lungs: "I've been looking at porn!"

I didn't understand what he'd said, so the poor kid had to repeat it.

I have to say, I was kind of relieved. The level of his anxiety had me worried that it was something much worse.









I was kind of shocked, but managed to hold it together pretty well. We had some of the same discussions as you, GWH: it's natural to want to look at pretty girls, sex is a good, fun thing, etc. I did take pains to point out that A) there is some weird stuff on the net and I wasn't keen on him looking at it, and B) sex is an experience that your body is ready for way before your mind is. It was a good conversation, he was relieved, I encouraged him to ask me questions if he comes across anything that confuses him, etc. etc. He apologized profusely -- it was so sad! I did tell him that I didn't think an apology was necessary.

I did check the history on his computer later and didn't find activity -- this thread reminds me that I need to do that more often.







I do worry about the really hardcore stuff, but I think the best I can do is monitor frequently and maintain open discussion.

DS1 is an enthusiastic gamer, so I knew he would eventually come across porn -- I'm glad he came to me about it, but I know I can't go to extreme lengths to keep him from it. It's not so hard to get around a filter, kwim?

I'm not of the opinion that porn creates addicted misogynists who can't have healthy relationships. It's like drugs: some people have that part of their genetic makeup and if they're unfortunate enough to find their substance, well...my son's father is a recovering drug addict who is that kind of person. I'm not sure about DS, but he's aware that this could be an issue for him in the future.

My dp likes porn, has a collection, the whole bit. He certainly knows the difference between the artifice of porn and real women, and appreciates them both.

Anyway, OP, I think you're handling this situation in a sensitive and conscientious manner. Your son is fortunate that you're his mom.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Kind of off topic, but I'm convinced that _Penthouse Letters_ are written by the same person, lol. They are all so repetitive and use a lot of the same words. Hee. We used to have some of them, but I got bored with them and sold them to Half Price Books.

And men do enjoy erotic literature. My ex (my son's father) loves erotic literature and had several books on the subject when we were together.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
Kind of off topic, but I'm convinced that _Penthouse Letters_ are written by the same person, lol. They are all so repetitive and use a lot of the same words. Hee. We used to have some of them, but I got bored with them and sold them to Half Price Books.

And men do enjoy erotic literature. My ex (my son's father) loves erotic literature and had several books on the subject when we were together.

I know! And how often does a buxom lady move next door to you and immediately start sunbathing in the all-together, anyway!


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

You _don't_ have a neighbor like that?!?! I thought _everyone_ did!


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## AnnaLC (Sep 23, 2005)

I would feel so violated if my mother ever gave me porn...let alone my dad, a member of the OPOSITE sex. To me the idea of giving him porn and directing where his fantasy life goes (the most personal and private thing ever) is just sexually invasive.
Yes, filter the internet, and tell him that you don't want hardcore porn in the house if those are your rules, no argument there... some things you just can't unsee...
but i wouldn't get him porn... he's 11, once in a while he's gonna have a few dollars laying around, if he wants to go get maxim or playboy or any of the relatively soft stuff that is sold at news stands, he can do it on his own.
It is important for him to know the guidelines and that sexuality and curiosity are normal... but there's no reason for you to have to give him "reading" material.
IMO, the best thing that you could do for him is to talk to him about how to treat women and the issues sorrounding publishing of their images (you dont even have to mention hardcore porn... Underwear models would even do the trick) and make sure he knows how sex really works and the concerns associated with it... besides, if he knows the mechanics (which I assume he does) he's probably using that noggin to make his own porn at this point... I deffonitly was.

That's just my 2 cents.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnaLC* 
I would feel so violated if my mother ever gave me porn...let alone my dad, a member of the OPOSITE sex. To me the idea of giving him porn and directing where his fantasy life goes (the most personal and private thing ever) is just sexually invasive.

I am not sure anyone on here was saying hand him porn. The idea was given to purchase magazines, books, or things like that and leave them where he would find them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnaLC*
Yes, filter the internet, and tell him that you don't want hardcore porn in the house if those are your rules, no argument there... some things you just can't unsee...

Just wanted to let you know my experience. You can tell him all you want and it doesn't ensure anything. The filters don't ensure anything either. I agree it isn't something that I would have picked for my 10 year to find, but it happened. He is going to be 12 next month and he hasn't viewed porn for several months. One of the things we did at first was filter and lock down the system. The thing is that they need to learn to self-censor b/c there will be a time when they are out of our reach (friend's house) and if they have never learned to self-censor they will probably be more than happy to participate in viewing when they are out of our reach. I wanted my son to know he could trust himself to be on a computer and not give into temptation b/c the porn is a huge temptation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnaLC*
but i wouldn't get him porn... he's 11, once in a while he's gonna have a few dollars laying around, if he wants to go get maxim or playboy or any of the relatively soft stuff that is sold at news stands, he can do it on his own.
It is important for him to know the guidelines and that sexuality and curiosity are normal... but there's no reason for you to have to give him "reading" material.

I am not sure I see the difference between buying the magazines for him or him saving his money and buying them himself. Are you expecting him to tell you he is buying the stuff or do you want him to do it without your knowledge? Why would he know it is acceptable to buy his own magazine and not something to hide if you don't discuss all aspects of it?


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Understanding someone elses sexuality is a very hard thing, and I can attest that I know of NO man that truly understands a womans sexuality. I just assumed that it was just as hard for a woman to truly understand ours.

I do not think, and this is only an opinion, that someone of the opposite sex cant effectively teach you about your emotions during this phase in a young persons life without quite a bit of difficulty. I personally would have no idea how to have these conversations with a daughter and from talking to my significant other about how to handle the situations with our son I have come to believe that she would be as inept at that as I would with a girl... That is not an insult by any means, I just accept the strengths and weaknesses we both have.

I think this is a major, and very relevant point you make and it needs to be extended outside of a reductioninst model of sexed bodies and sexualities. No one really understands other people's sexualities - and having the same or similar genitals does not give you any special insights. I identify with a femme gender identity and I have a vagina but I would never presume that this gave me some precutural or pancultural understanding of all other people who have vaginas.

The ways in which we engages with erotics, desires, sexual practices, sexed bodies, and the persutes of pleasure are social practices but they are simultaneously incredibly individualized. Suggesting, for example, that no men like erotica, that feminist erotics and pornography are "propoganda", and that simplying being a man gives one profound insight into the sexual desires and erotic practices of half of the world's people totally relies on such problematic notions of standpoint theory and reductionist ideologies about bodies, identity, and personhood. These types of universalizing efforts are part of what is so wrong with US American engagements with sexuality and erotics and why discussion like this, about how to raise sex positive and healthy children, are so imporant.

Further, this is what is so key about GWH's handling of this situation. She is showing respect for her son and his curiousity in a sex positive and supportive way, rather than making blanket assumptions about what is "good" or "right" or whatnot and rather than creating a shaemful, 'power-over' dynamic with her son.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I think it's the other way around - people seek sexual gratification through visual stimuli, and the side effect is that some people make money from it.

I'd believe that if there were more porn that was actually about "sexual gratification" instead of degradation. The internet really changed the porn game.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

Wow, what a thread!









I have a few questions.

Why would you tell him he has to get rid of the porn when you find it, but then go out of your way to LET him find porn - would you then have to tell him to get rid of the stuff you "let" him find? It seems kind of circular and confusing.

If there's nothing wrong with him looking at it, why would you tell him to get rid of it in the first place?

Wouldn't the "ability to self-censor" when in other settings, like at a friend's house where there aren't any content filters, just alienate him from what the other boys are doing? What does he do at that point, read a book? Call you to come pick him up? Please forgive me if I sound snarky, I'm truly trying to understand. My honest opinion is that he's probably not going to "self-censor", especially in front of peers. And ... frankly ... why should he?

Oh, and I had one more thought. Maxim is the most anti-woman thing I have ever read, and I've read High Society. The girls in Maxim might be wearing underwear, but the text is humiliating, dehumanizing, and all in all just NOT the message to send a budding 12-year old boy about females and sexuality. Forget the pictures, critically READ the magazine sometime, and I hope you'll see that it could potentially be a horrible influence on a young man. I mean, at least Playboy lets the girls fill out their own "turn on/turn off" cards.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

There isn't anything inherently wrong with him looking at porn. I dislike hardcore porn because it is a huge thing to wrap MY brain around and I'm 34 years old and have vastly more experience than my innocent 11 year old son.

And, yes, if he feels uncomfortable with what his friends are doing then, hell yes, he should call me to pick him up. It's the same thing if a friend brings out beer and offers him a taste. He knows he's not ready for that. He also knows he can call me anytime.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
Wow, what a thread!









I have a few questions.

Why would you tell him he has to get rid of the porn when you find it, but then go out of your way to LET him find porn - would you then have to tell him to get rid of the stuff you "let" him find? It seems kind of circular and confusing.

Not the OP, but I have experienced the porn issue (still do) with my own son starting at age 10. For us, it was the type of content he was viewing online that was disturbing. He saw video clips of sexual acts, as well as, still photos of very explicit sex acts being performed. We personally haven't purchased other types of stimulus for him to "find" such as magazines, but that is just b/c it wasn't right for our family. We will explore that as he gets older (he will be 12 next month).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug*
If there's nothing wrong with him looking at it, why would you tell him to get rid of it in the first place?

There is nothing wrong with curiousity about the other gender, but the photos/videos he was accessing were entirely wrong for his age. IMO it is not healthy for a child of his age to view anything that depicts the sex act. That can wait until he is a little older.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug*
Wouldn't the "ability to self-censor" when in other settings, like at a friend's house where there aren't any content filters, just alienate him from what the other boys are doing? What does he do at that point, read a book? Call you to come pick him up? Please forgive me if I sound snarky, I'm truly trying to understand. My honest opinion is that he's probably not going to "self-censor", especially in front of peers. And ... frankly ... why should he?

I would hope he would remove himself from the situation. It is no different than stepping out if his friends decide to drink, smoke, do drugs, or engage in an activity that he feels is not appropriate. I would love if he felt comfortable to call me to come get him.

The whole idea of Joe was doing it, so I had to is a huge pet peeve of mine. My children have learned from early on that they are responsible for their actions and if they choose to go along just b/c their friends are doing it, they are going to have the same consequences as their friends. Thankfully, at least right now, my kids are very strong in their beliefs and have very little problem saying I won't be a part of this activity b/c it is not appropriate. That is a critical message to learn early b/c it will be their lifeline as they are older.

If he wants to self-censor, then why should he not? Do you really feel a child should just go along with their buddies b/c they want to save face? That can lead to some pretty dangerous situation, as well as, consequences. My son has little problem stating when he feels something is wrong now and I hope to encourage that for his teen years. My kids know they can always call me from a friend's house if they are not comfortable with what is happening.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I'd believe that if there were more porn that was actually about "sexual gratification" instead of degradation. The internet really changed the porn game.

Are you suggesting that a) no one achieves gratification through viewing porn and that b) all people in all porn are being degraded?


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
Wouldn't the "ability to self-censor" when in other settings, like at a friend's house where there aren't any content filters, just alienate him from what the other boys are doing? What does he do at that point, read a book? Call you to come pick him up? Please forgive me if I sound snarky, I'm truly trying to understand. My honest opinion is that he's probably not going to "self-censor", especially in front of peers. And ... frankly ... why should he?

What effect would punishment and humiliation have on his likelihood to react well or poorly when confronted with pornography in a peer setting? I may be misunderstanding your post, though, so would you mind clarifying?


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Are you suggesting that a) no one achieves gratification through viewing porn and that b) all people in all porn are being degraded?

I am suggesting that pornographers have created and expanded markets the way that any other business does. There are a lot of things out there we don't know we "need" until the market tells us we "need" it. It is the job of profitable business to _create demand_.

So, porn has gotten more *violent*, and I'm suggesting that because it's *true*. Most of that expansion has been to make movies about degradation--the turn-on is power based and created through seeing people degraded.

I'm sort of stuck for other examples, because I don't want to be a UA Violation!









Are _you_ suggesting that the porn business has some sort of exemption from market forces because it's connected to sex?


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

I am also strongly "suggesting" that pornographers do not make porn because of an altruistic desire to bring orgasms to the world. They make porn because it's profitable. Like Nike makes sneakers. And, Nestle makes formula.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I am suggesting that pornographers have created and expanded markets the way that any other business does. There are a lot of things out there we don't know we "need" until the market tells us we "need" it. It is the job of profitable business to _create demand_.

So, porn has gotten more *violent*, and I'm suggesting that because it's *true*. Most of that expansion has been to make movies about degradation--the turn-on is power based and created through seeing people degraded.

I'm sort of stuck for other examples, because I don't want to be a UA Violation!









Are _you_ suggesting that the porn business has some sort of exemption from market forces because it's connected to sex?

Well, I don't believe the internet has created this demand that wasn't there before. I think it is easier to track now b/c of the internet and the number of hits to a site, but I doubt it is more prevelant....just easier to track.

I also don't believe porn is more violent, it's just easier to access online. You no longer have to go to an adult store to rent a video. As far as violence, again not more violent, just easier to view it from your home.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I am also strongly "suggesting" that pornographers do not make porn because of an altruistic desire to bring orgasms to the world. They make porn because it's profitable. Like Nike makes sneakers. And, Nestle makes formula.

I don't doubt the profit is a huge factor in creating porn. I would guess that it is a major part of it, just like any other business.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I am suggesting that pornographers have created and expanded markets the way that any other business does. There are a lot of things out there we don't know we "need" until the market tells us we "need" it. It is the job of profitable business to _create demand_.

So, porn has gotten more *violent*, and I'm suggesting that because it's *true*. Most of that expansion has been to make movies about degradation--the turn-on is power based and created through seeing people degraded.

I'm sort of stuck for other examples, because I don't want to be a UA Violation!









Are _you_ suggesting that the porn business has some sort of exemption from market forces because it's connected to sex?

No no - but I think it's important to talk about the related but separate issues of pornography and the porn business.

About degradation, what if a person enjoys feeling degraded? What if a person is stimulated by scenes of degradation? Does that make them a bad person? Are we, as a society, now going to determine what a consenting adult can see other consenting adults do?

I think sexuality is much more complex than just good and bad. I also would like to point out that pornography has existed for thousands of years, so while I agree with you about the changes in availability, everything depicted in pornography of today has been depicted in the past.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Well, I don't believe the internet has created this demand that wasn't there before. I think it is easier to track now b/c of the internet and the number of hits to a site, but I doubt it is more prevelant....just easier to track.

I also don't believe porn is more violent, it's just easier to access online. You no longer have to go to an adult store to rent a video. As far as violence, again not more violent, just easier to view it from your home.

The people that are _in the business_ say that it's more violent.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I think sexuality is much more complex than just good and bad. I also would like to point out that pornography has existed for thousands of years, so while I agree with you about the changes in availability, everything depicted in pornography of today has been depicted in the past.

Yeah, well, the UA agreement makes this whole line of conversation sort of pointless.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I am also strongly "suggesting" that pornographers do not make porn because of an altruistic desire to bring orgasms to the world. They make porn because it's profitable. Like Nike makes sneakers. And, Nestle makes formula.

Profit is the same reason organic cotton hammock makers make organic cotton hammocks - businesses exist to make money. However, the porn business exists because people want to see other people having sex - and always have. I don't have any illusions about the nature of the porn business, but can you or I really decide for other adults that they are not allowed to make or see porn because of our moral or ethical convictions?

As an aside, I noticed your use of quotes around suggesting - I hope I didn't seem rude in my previous post, I'm just giving my opinion.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
The people that are _in the business_ say that it's more violent.

Interesting......link please.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Well, I don't believe the internet has created this demand that wasn't there before. I think it is easier to track now b/c of the internet and the number of hits to a site, but I doubt it is more prevelant....just easier to track.

I also don't believe porn is more violent, it's just easier to access online. You no longer have to go to an adult store to rent a video. As far as violence, again not more violent, just easier to view it from your home.

I have to agree with this here. Further, porn has actually become easier to CONTROL in many ways through the internet. Certianly there is now LESS child pornography effectively being distributed without punishment (I work in fornesic psychology and we see case afetr case of internet busted child porn).

As for the larger debate - porn is often a money driven enterprise, although not always as there are people who enjoy taking and distributing for free pictures and movies of themselves and their various lovers. Simply being a profit driven industry does not make it bad - the organic clothing industry is also profit driven, as are slings and cloth diapers and all sorts of other things advocated for strongly here. Much like bad products and bad producers in other industries, porn is not exempt from these issues but it is also not as plagued by them as many want to suggest.

Are women all degraded (and is degradation experiences as a bad thing) in poor? No. Is negotiates of power in porn always a bad thing? No. Certianly the anti-porn feminist of the 1980s already hashed this one out pretty effectively and came out on the losing end of the arguement. Even pictorial images of violence within porn are not fundementally wrong since these are part of the larger negotiations of erotics and desires that are a part of the human condition.

Clearly I don't support porn that is abusive (child porn for example or coerced porn, secret images of people from bathrooms, or the use of violence that is not concentual, etc) but a blanket condemation of porn on the grounds that it is violent or degrading or profit driven seems overly universalized. I imagine we can all agree that much like calling all tennis shoes the product of child labor and suffering (when some are but all are not) and going barefoot instead of buying them is not the answer - the answer is seeking out and supporting those who do not abuse while making their products and growing those inductries with the market forces you mentioned.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Profit is the same reason organic cotton hammock makers make organic cotton hammocks - businesses exist to make money. However, the porn business exists because people want to see other people having sex - and always have. I don't have any illusions about the nature of the porn business, but can you or I really decide for other adults that they are not allowed to make or see porn because of our moral or ethical convictions?

As an aside, I noticed your use of quotes around suggesting - I hope I didn't seem rude in my previous post, I'm just giving my opinion.

Dude... where did I say that I wanted to regulate ANYTHING? How is it regulating or legislating or forcing ANYTHING on ANYONE to state that porn is a business? Did I say anything about laws at all?

Yeah, you _do_ sound rude. You've put a whole lot of presumptions on me just out of thin air.

I love how anyone in this thread that isn't "YAY PORN!" is automatically some sort of prudish, Meese Report thumping, would-be censor.

People can *think critically* about the content of pornography without insisting that it be outlawed. To hear some of y'all tell it, any analysis at all is oppressive to porn-consumers.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MSAX* 
Clearly I don't support porn that is abusive (child porn for example or coerced porn, secret images of people from bathrooms, or the use of violence that is not concentual, etc) but a blanket condemation of porn on the grounds that it is violent or degrading or profit driven seems overly universalized. I imagine we can all agree that much like calling all tennis shoes the product of child labor and suffering (when some are but all are not) and going barefoot instead of buying them is not the answer - the answer is seeking out and supporting those who do not abuse while making their products and growing those inductries with the market forces you mentioned.

And, for some of us the answer is to decide that we don't wish to have sex sold to us as a consumer product, complete with a middle man making most of the profit..


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
Dude... where did I say that I wanted to regulate ANYTHING? How is it regulating or legislating or forcing ANYTHING on ANYONE to state that porn is a business? Did I say anything about laws at all?

Er...did I? I talked about deciding, morally or ethically, for others what is and is not degrading, I didn't suggest that you were advocating legislation/

Quote:

Yeah, you _do_ sound rude. You've put a whole lot of presumptions on me just out of thin air.
I apologize.

Quote:

I love how anyone in this thread that isn't "YAY PORN!" is automatically some sort of prudish, Meese Report thumping, would-be censor.

People can *think critically* about the content of pornography without insisting that it be outlawed. To hear some of y'all tell it, any analysis at all is oppressive to porn-consumers.
Since you seem to be taking this personally, or at least seem to be getting angry, I'll refrain from debating with you further. Peace.


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## MelanieMC (Jul 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Punkymom* 
Ok, here's my 2cents. I was 6 when I found my dad's stash of porn. 6. He had a subscription to PentHouse and Play Boy and he also had a variety of movies. I saw it all. My mom found out. She was devistated. My dad found out. He really didn't care. He would read his mags in the living room while he watched football on Sunday (we were church goers). *I was basically addicted to porn until a few years ago and it continues to be a challenge for me. For me, it ruined my childhood. I thought about this stuff constantly. I wish that my barbies could have been just having a food fight or something, but instead they were having sex. In every position bc at the age of 7 I knew them all.* For me, I really wish my mom had put her foot down and made my dad get rid of it. She wanted him to, but he wouldn't. I feel like I was ruled by that nightstand in my parent's room and would sneak these magazines out and read them, cover to cover. I really wish that they would have put their foot down and gotten rid of them.









I totally identify with this. For me it started at age 9 and continued up until about 2 years ago, but its still something thats with me. It totally ruined my childhood in the sense that I feel like my innocence was stolen. I became addicted quickly and when I think about the things that ive seen in videos, magazines and esp. the internet I feel sick. Like punkymom I can still remember all of the images I've seen and it haunts me. When I think back to a certain video my dad had that I saw for the first time at age 11 I feel sick to my stomach. It was *extremely* hardcore and I saw things that no child should ever see. I still feel impulses to look online, but I fight it. There have been times when I have had to turn off the computer and disconnect the internet cords just so I won't look. I know a few pictures may seem innocent to some, but that's how it started for me and for so many others, and it snowballs from there. I wish I could go back in time and never even touch one of my dads magazines. It really did ruin my childhood and at age 21 I still feel the effects and I think I always will. I wish that I could have had a healthy and normal view of sex, but it was tainted for me with images that in no way represent what a normal healthy sexual relationship is like.







I've never told anyone about this before, online or irl.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelanieMC* 
I've never told anyone about this before, online or irl.









I'm sorry that happened to you.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
I love how anyone in this thread that isn't "YAY PORN!" is automatically some sort of prudish, Meese Report thumping, would-be censor.

People can *think critically* about the content of pornography without insisting that it be outlawed. To hear some of y'all tell it, any analysis at all is oppressive to porn-consumers.

Interesting.....wondering where you got this assumption. I am certainly not "YAY PORN!" and I don't see where anyone has said I am "some sort of prudish, Meese Report thumping, would be censor" anymore than I have seen anyone saying this about you.

I also don't see where anyone stated that analysis is oppressive to porn consumers.

Just wondering if you found the link that supports this quote from you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
The people that are in the business say that it's more violent


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
What effect would punishment and humiliation have on his likelihood to react well or poorly when confronted with pornography in a peer setting? I may be misunderstanding your post, though, so would you mind clarifying?

I was definitely, definitely not advocating punishment and humiliation. I think that would have a completely ruinous effect, as evidenced by many of our mens' negative attitudes toward sex. To answer your question in a straightforward manner, I believe that the effect of punishment and humiliation would cause him to have an extremely slim likelihood to react well when confronted with pornography.

I'm all for fostering healthy attitudes about sex from the beginning.

The questions in my post dealt more with what I saw as potentially flawed logic or potentially confusing messages being sent to the adolescent in question.

And OP - that's so, so awesome that you and your son have such a trusting and honest relationship. That's definitely the cornerstone in developing healthy adolescent attitudes about sex. Of course whatever is forbidden or disapproved of is going to be what is sought out. My question to you about the self-censorship issue was possibly a bit of a snap judgement, just in the fact that I've never met a 12-year old boy who would, when faced with the choice of looking at forbidden porn on the internet with his friends at a sleepover or calling his mom to come get him, choose to call his mom. That would be awesome if your son is that kind of kid.

Please do not misunderstand me. I wish he would call you, too, when faced with that choice. And I don't pretend to know him, or you, only the stereotype of a pubescent boy - and my gut tells me not to expect him to call you. YMMV.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Well, honestly, I HOPE he'd call me. I have no idea. It would be his choice to call me. More than likely? He'd probably look, feel badly about it, and come talk to me about it later.

I guess, my point is, I am making my home a haven for him, a safe place to be, if you will. He can be the little kid he is and still have talks with mom or stepdad (or dad or stepmom) about sexual issues. I can't control what he sees at Johnny's house, but I can instill some sense of right and wrong in him. I wouldn't punish him for staying at johnny's house and looking at porn as, well, it's a normal thing to do. I would again explain why I feel it's not the right time to be viewing pornography and how can we react in the future to prevent this from happening again? Perhaps a little role play could be done to help him find his words in that sort of situation. We do that with regards to drugs, why not pornography?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
Please do not misunderstand me. I wish he would call you, too, when faced with that choice. And I don't pretend to know him, or you, only the stereotype of a pubescent boy - and my gut tells me not to expect him to call you. YMMV.

I guess it would depend on the relationship between the parent and child. My children have always known they can call me if they need me. My daughter (10) and son (almost 12) have already done so.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow...the OP didn't post a "Let's talk about whether or not we support porn" post...she posted regarding an 11 yr old boy who has ALREADY SEEN HARDCORE PORN...IMO (and correct me if I'm wrong GWH) the issues that she is looking for help on are how to:
1) come to terms with the fact that said 11 yr old has seen some things that we'd rather he'd not
2) make sure that these images he's already seen do not become normalized to him (hence my suggestion for art sketches or other pictures of a woman's natural body in a non-sexualized setting in order to prompt discussion between his parents and himself regarding normal sexual curiosity and womens' bodies. Would I suggest this to a mother of an 11yr old who had not already viewed hardcore material? Probably not. BUT, I for one find no harm in curious adolescents having accidental access to 'safe' natural pictures of a woman's body in a non-sexualized setting)
3)vent a little!

Now, am I (OP,or other posters) suggesting she bring him more porn? No. Are we hosting a discussion on the merits (or lack of) of porn? No. I think we all can agree that we'd all prefer that our prepubescent teens not view hardcore sexual material, but he already has so the question is how to remedy that and try to prevent it in the future!

We need to make sure we are limiting the discussion to the matters at hand, or start a new thread to further investigate the turn this thread has taken.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
I was definitely, definitely not advocating punishment and humiliation. I think that would have a completely ruinous effect, as evidenced by many of our mens' negative attitudes toward sex. To answer your question in a straightforward manner, I believe that the effect of punishment and humiliation would cause him to have an extremely slim likelihood to react well when confronted with pornography.

I'm all for fostering healthy attitudes about sex from the beginning.

The questions in my post dealt more with what I saw as potentially flawed logic or potentially confusing messages being sent to the adolescent in question.

And OP - that's so, so awesome that you and your son have such a trusting and honest relationship. That's definitely the cornerstone in developing healthy adolescent attitudes about sex. Of course whatever is forbidden or disapproved of is going to be what is sought out. My question to you about the self-censorship issue was possibly a bit of a snap judgement, just in the fact that I've never met a 12-year old boy who would, when faced with the choice of looking at forbidden porn on the internet with his friends at a sleepover or calling his mom to come get him, choose to call his mom. That would be awesome if your son is that kind of kid.

Please do not misunderstand me. I wish he would call you, too, when faced with that choice. And I don't pretend to know him, or you, only the stereotype of a pubescent boy - and my gut tells me not to expect him to call you. YMMV.

Thanks for clarifying.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Thank you, Attachedmamaof3. I do appreciate it.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I would trash it if I found it a second time and not say anything to him this time. He will get the hint if he goes back and its not there.







He's only 11 yrs old and what a child does when really young sticks with them forever. When I was 14 and had sex with an older boy and he abused me for several years has stuck with me through all of my sexual experiences in life. This is because he was my first experience and I feel its that way with all big experiences in life. They stick with you the rest of your life. If your son is looking at porn then that is what he will remember regarding women. That's not what real life relationships and sex is about and he will be sadly disappointed when he finds that out one day when he is older. It may also make him grow up thinking women should have perfect bodies and want to do not so nice things in the bedroom just because he saw it in books before he even hit puberty. So whether you realize it or not this stuff will stick with him for the long haul. Get rid of it and don't allow it in your house. You have that right while he is underage.

I'm curious but are you divorced? Why haven't you mentioned your childs father and how he should handle this type of situation? Your son most likely cried the first time you approached him because he was embarrassed since you are a female. I think at this age it's time for his father to take responsibility in that area. No boy wants to hear from his mom that he shouldn't look at porn. I think he would understand and listen better if a man were talking to him.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I forgot to also mention if this were alcohol or some sort of drug, would you also allow him to choose whether or not to keep that in his bedroom? IMO its all relative. If he were to walk in to a store and try to buy a smut magazine then more than likely he wouldn't be able to since they are for ages 18 and up. There is a time and place for everything and 11 yrs old isn't the age to allow porn, even if he has *already* seen it. My oldest child (12) has played video games but if I feel the need to take it away I have and he now only plays his games when he has nothing better to do, maybe a couple times a month. As a parent we are supposed to limit things or take bad things away from them. If my son came home with a joint in his book bag it would go down the toilet.

If your son saw the porn already then fine, okay, I agree you handled that part well. But I do not agree with giving him the choice of keeping it or not. Thats just helping him think that at this young age he can look at perverted materials and it doesn't matter to his parents. I would never do that and it doesn't make me a prude either. I can look at porn and it doesn't bother me but I'm 38 yrs old and I've already become a sensible adult. I started looking at it once I became an adult, not at 11 yrs old. The fact is that if I KNEW my child has this material in his room then I would dispose of it. I would talk to him about it as well but its my job to make sure it's out of the reach of my child. He's underage and it's just not appropriate. I want my sons to grow up and respect women not be eager to see whats under their clothing. Thats crazy! There are already too many high school boys out there like that now. Whats wrong with wanting to help guide our boys in the right direction. On the one hand women on this board in other threads complain about men wanting sex all the time or how their relationships are based on him wanting sex when the wife doesn't want it or blah, blah. Then a thread like this comes up on how to guide a young innocent boy in the right direction so he doesn't turn out like most men in America and no one sees that what this child is doing at 11 yrs old will most certainly make him who he is sexually when he is in a relationship later on. As women we shouldn't just accept the fact that men will be men and help our small children move in to that same line of thinking that so many men for so many generations have believed. They should all be horny and lusting after sex. Thats what men are supposed to what right? I don't think so.

All boys don't have to be perverts in high school to seem "normal." There are other things besides sex that they can look forward to when they get a little older. Sex is a part of life once we are old enough to experience it and its wonderful and fun - but there are more tactful and respectful ways to teach our tweens about it besides allowing them to choose whether or not to have nasty, misleading pictures to stare at and masturbate to. Give me a break!


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## ErikaLeigh (Dec 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelanieMC* 







I totally identify with this. For me it started at age 9 and continued up until about 2 years ago, but its still something thats with me. It totally ruined my childhood in the sense that I feel like my innocence was stolen. I became addicted quickly and when I think about the things that ive seen in videos, magazines and esp. the internet I feel sick. Like punkymom I can still remember all of the images I've seen and it haunts me. When I think back to a certain video my dad had that I saw for the first time at age 11 I feel sick to my stomach. It was *extremely* hardcore and I saw things that no child should ever see. I still feel impulses to look online, but I fight it. There have been times when I have had to turn off the computer and disconnect the internet cords just so I won't look. I know a few pictures may seem innocent to some, but that's how it started for me and for so many others, and it snowballs from there. I wish I could go back in time and never even touch one of my dads magazines. It really did ruin my childhood and at age 21 I still feel the effects and I think I always will. I wish that I could have had a healthy and normal view of sex, but it was tainted for me with images that in no way represent what a normal healthy sexual relationship is like.







I've never told anyone about this before, online or irl.









Mel


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
I forgot to also mention if this were alcohol or some sort of drug, would you also allow him to choose whether or not to keep that in his bedroom? *IMO its all relative*. If he were to walk in to a store and try to buy a smut magazine then more than likely he wouldn't be able to since they are for ages 18 and up. There is a time and place for everything and 11 yrs old isn't the age to allow porn, even if he has *already* seen it. My oldest child (12) has played video games but if I feel the need to take it away I have and he now only plays his games when he has nothing better to do, maybe a couple times a month. As a parent we are supposed to limit things or take bad things away from them. If my son came home with a joint in his book bag it would go down the toilet.

Bold mine.

That is the key. It's all relative. If a family has no issues providing a magazine for their pre-teen/teen to view, so be it. Some families don't see it something "bad" that needs taken away. It seems on this thread most feel it should be limited to the type, if allowed at all. We don't do magazines or anything at this point, but I guarantee that even a clothed woman could be imagined about by a child who has already had the images placed in his head or by one who is getting to the age of curiosity. I can't/won't shield my child from everything around him and then expect that at some magical age he will be able to just not participate in the activity. It has been a journey of almost two years from when my son first saw the porn and he has matured and learned to self-censor through the years. He has also had a lot of set-backs, which is all part of the deal.

As far as the joint analogy. Are you comparing the natural desire to view women and fantasize about women to drugs? I don't feel you can do that b/c drugs aren't a natural desire that all people will get with age/puberty. Curiousity about sex and the opposite gender is 100% natural.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
If your son saw the porn already then fine, okay, I agree you handled that part well. But I do not agree with giving him the choice of keeping it or not. Thats just helping him think that at this young age he can look at perverted materials and it doesn't matter to his parents. I would never do that and it doesn't make me a prude either. I can look at porn and it doesn't bother me but I'm 38 yrs old and I've already become a sensible adult. I started looking at it once I became an adult, not at 11 yrs old. The fact is that if I KNEW my child has this material in his room then I would dispose of it. I would talk to him about it as well but its my job to make sure it's out of the reach of my child. He's underage and it's just not appropriate.

Again, not all view it as perverted. I am not sure why you feel it doesn't matter to the parents if he views porn or not. The magazines are a "safe" type of magazine to view, as opposed to the hardcore images from the internet. It could be viewed as a set-down as sorts. You really can't just eliminate the porn and the problem disappears. The desire will still be there, you will just be deluding yourself into thinking it's gone. The fact that it is out of reach in your home doesn't make it out of reach in the rest of the world. I chose to lock down our systems briefly, then open them back up b/c my son needed to learn, in the safety of his own home, how to censor himself so he can do so when he is out without me and my parental locks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I want my sons to grow up and respect women not be eager to see whats under their clothing. Thats crazy!

Do you really think that your sons will not go through puberty wondering about what is under girls' clothing? It's called puberty and it's a natural progression to wonder about all those things. I can't imagine thinking my children (boys or girls) wouldn't wonder at some point and imagine these things. If you make them feel that imagining a completely normal thing equals disrespecting women, then you are setting them up to feel completely guilty about their natural desires/urges/thoughts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
There are already too many high school boys out there like that now. Whats wrong with wanting to help guide our boys in the right direction. On the one hand women on this board in other threads complain about men wanting sex all the time or how their relationships are based on him wanting sex when the wife doesn't want it or blah, blah. Then a thread like this comes up on how to guide a young innocent boy in the right direction so *he doesn't turn out like most men in America* and no one sees that what this child is doing at 11 yrs old will most certainly make him who he is sexually when he is in a relationship later on.

Wow. Not even gonna go to the boldest section.

I find it interesting that you correlate a child's sexual relationship later in life with their viewing of porn or not. My husband viewed porn from an early age and had sex at an insanely early age......he is now a married man of almost fifteen years who has no sexual issues at all. I am not sure what you think will happen to your child's sex life later if your child sees porn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
As women we shouldn't just accept the fact that men will be men and help our small children move in to that same line of thinking that so many men for so many generations have believed. They should all be horny and lusting after sex. Thats what men are supposed to what right? I don't think so.

Are you saying boys/girls are going to have a natural desire to explore the opposite gender? Do you not feel it is natural to be curious about the opposite gender and want to explore that curiousity? I don't believe all boys should be "horny and lusting after sex," but I am not blind to the facts that boys and girls (which you seem to not be including) will have this desire and it is pefectly normal and natural.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
All boys don't have to be perverts in high school to seem "normal." There are other things besides sex that they can look forward to when they get a little older. Sex is a part of life once we are old enough to experience it and its wonderful and fun - but there are more tactful and respectful ways to teach our tweens about it besides allowing them to choose whether or not to have nasty, misleading pictures to stare at and masturbate to. Give me a break!

So my son is a pervert b/c he is battling a porn addiction? Nice.

I agree there are lots of things to look forward to as they grow, but you have to acknowledge curiousity in the opposite gender is completely natural and normal b/c otherwise your child(ren) will grow up feeling guilty and ashamed of a natural process.

Interesting you correlate viewing the porn with masturbation, that isn't the case in our home. At least not yet. I am sure my sons will masturbate at some point, as well as, my daughter (who already does actually). I also agree sex is when they are old enough, but it isn't going to be me making that decision. As much as I want my children to wait for marriage, they will be the ones making the final decision. I can't stop/make them not have sex when they decide to and I refuse to guilt/shame them into thinking their natural desires are wrong.

Give me a break!


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Sigh. Mommy68, I really wish you had read the entire thread. I really do. I'm going with Houdini on this one. The assumptions made and the broad generalizations made are hurtful.

As for agreeing with me, well, that's your choice. I feel I gave him some control over a sticky situation.

And, he cried because he wasn't embarassed. He felt icky. I know this. I know my kid. Please don't make assumptions of his emotions. I do know him after all.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

GWH, I know this thread has brought up some deep thoughts here and I appreciate you sharing so much with us. I for one have learned a great deal and have gained some valuable knowledge. I feel that if/when this situation comes up with my son, I can reflect on this thread and make some informed decisions on how I handle it - thank you









This is an important topic for discussion. I too remember finding my dad's playboys at age 8, so this is not a new topic, but I will admit the Internet has made it even more unique.

Let's keep in mind GWH's original post and what she was looking for. If you'd like to expand on the issues of children and porn or what is and is not appropriate, you may wish to open a new thread to address your specific issues









GWH, as a mother, you absolutely know your child best and I feel your handling this very well.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
I would trash it if I found it a second time and not say anything to him this time. He will get the hint if he goes back and its not there.









Do you think that would eliminate his desire to view the material?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
He's only 11 yrs old and what a child does when really young sticks with them forever. When I was 14 and had sex with an older boy and he abused me for several years has stuck with me through all of my sexual experiences in life. This is because he was my first experience and I feel its that way with all big experiences in life. They stick with you the rest of your life.

I agree big experiences (especially sexual) stick with you in life. I also believe that the experiences can be accepted as past and you can work through the feelings that go with them and move beyond them. Not everyone will react the same way and I try really hard to not project my views of a situation or my reactions to a situation on my kids or decide that b/c I reacted one way, my kids will have the same reaction.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
If your son is looking at porn then that is what he will remember regarding women. That's not what real life relationships and sex is about and he will be sadly disappointed when he finds that out one day when he is older. It may also make him grow up thinking women should have perfect bodies and want to do not so nice things in the bedroom just because he saw it in books before he even hit puberty. So whether you realize it or not this stuff will stick with him for the long haul. Get rid of it and don't allow it in your house. You have that right while he is underage.

I think that talking it through and understanding where your child is coming from is the key to making sure they don't view all relationships in that manner. Communication is the way to dispel any ideas he may have about how a relationship should be. My son is very aware women come in all shapes and forms, the porn hasn't clouded that view at all. As far as things in the bedroom....well I can't say what interests he may have in the bedroom once he gets to that point. Frankly, it isn't any of my business. That would be between him and his partner. I will teach him respect for his partner and all other important issues, but they may decide something is appropriate for them that I wouldn't do in a million years.

I am still at a loss as to how you feel that getting rid of it will make the thoughts/images in his head go away. Just b/c he doesn't have direct access doesn't mean he won't still be curious and fantasize.

As far as sticking with you in life. I agree big experiences will, but they can also be talked through and an understanding formed about them to a point where they don't dictate who you are or how you react later in life. I was sexually abused as a teen by my step-father. I have a fairly normal sex life as an adult (I had trust issues at first). I think that all the things we experience make us who we are as adults and I wouldn't be the same person had that not happened. Do I wish it wouldn't have happened? Yes. Can I change what is done? No. Can I learn to heal and move on? Yes. Can I make the decision how I will let it impact my life as an adult? Yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I'm curious but are you divorced? Why haven't you mentioned your childs father and how he should handle this type of situation? Your son most likely cried the first time you approached him because he was embarrassed since you are a female. I think at this age it's time for his father to take responsibility in that area. No boy wants to hear from his mom that he shouldn't look at porn. I think he would understand and listen better if a man were talking to him.

Not the OP, but I will give my son's reaction.

My son was more afraid of his father's reaction than mine. The first time I spoke with him he denied having any knowledge. After several minutes, he admitted it was him. He never cried or showed any embarrasment. We had a long talk about what he saw and if he had any questions. We also talked more about puberty and developmental stuff.

He begged me not to tell his dad after I noticed the second incident. Here is why. He had his dad on such a high pedistool that he was afraid his dad would be disappointed and mad. Mind you, his dad didn't react in disappointment/anger the first time. My son saw his father as this strong Christian man who never would have looked at these things. He saw him as a man who would never understand b/c my son knows what the Bible says about lusting after things. My son felt my husband would be disappointed/angry b/c he had failed one of the teachings of God. It really hit me hard that my son felt that he couldn't be honest with his father about his feelings b/c he feared disappointing his dad and God. That hit me really hard. He cried when I told him we had to talk with dad. I also informed my husband that he needed to confess that he had looked at porn at his age (and younger), so our son could see his dad as a man of God who struggled with the same thing and overcame it. He could now see his dad as someone who has been there and come out of it intact.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Houdini, the heterocentricism in your post was pretty hurtful. Lots of us weren't interested in what was in the opposite sex's pants at puberty. It's NOT "100% natural."

I've been following this discussion up to here, and have discussed it with my partner. He thinks that we should give our children privacy and allow them free access to the internet and porn as preteens, while I worry that they might have unrealistic ideas about sex from watching hardcore porn. I looked at porn as a kid and still do-- I am about as pro-porn as they come and that's as an anarcha-feminist. I wish there was a way to limit my kids to feminist porn (hetero and/or queer) but I think I just have to believe that raising them with feminist values and open conversations about sex will lead them to be responsible, caring sex partners, no matter what they see in porn.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
Houdini, the heterocentricism in your post was pretty hurtful. Lots of us weren't interested in what was in the opposite sex's pants at puberty. It's NOT "100% natural."

Point taken. I apologize for coming across the way I did. I will re-phrase.

Once a person hits puberty, they are interested in the gender to which they are attracted. They have a natural desire to explore that desire.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

mommy68, I gotta tell you, I'm disturbed by the repeated use of the word "pervert" and "perverted" in your post. Sex is not bad, masturbation is not bad, and I don't see what on earth is "perverted" about an interest in sex. Yikes!


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## Vypros (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I just have to believe that raising them with feminist values and open conversations about sex will lead them to be responsible, caring sex partners, no matter what they see in porn.

Could you explain what you mean by "feminist values"? Like what sorts of values?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
Houdini, the heterocentricism in your post was pretty hurtful. Lots of us weren't interested in what was in the opposite sex's pants at puberty. It's NOT "100% natural."

I've been following this discussion up to here, and have discussed it with my partner. He thinks that we should give our children privacy and allow them free access to the internet and porn as preteens, while I worry that they might have unrealistic ideas about sex from watching hardcore porn. I looked at porn as a kid and still do-- I am about as pro-porn as they come and that's as an anarcha-feminist. I wish there was a way to limit my kids to feminist porn (hetero and/or queer) but I think I just have to believe that raising them with feminist values and open conversations about sex will lead them to be responsible, caring sex partners, no matter what they see in porn.


Ummm. It is 100% natural to be interested in sex around puberty. That being said people who are heterosexual look at it from their point of view. I highly doubt Houdini, or anyone else in this thread were intending to insult anyone with their points of view.

It is fine that you wish to limit your children to feminist porn... whatever that may be because I have honestly never even heard of it until this thread. Call me naive but I figured porn was porn and labeling it anything else was just sub categories.

I don't see how feminist porn can make someone more caring than regular porn.... I don't see how porn can make anyone caring about anything because honestly in my, albeit possibly limited, point of view porn is an instrument for arousal or education on other acts that can be done during sexual relations, regardless of your sexuality.

However I would not expose my heterosexual child to homosexual porn anymore than I would expose my homosexual child to heterosexual porn. They will seek it out on their own when they want to and we will discuss it when it happens. Houdini is obviously coming from a religious background so I don't see how she can place her views any more unoffending than she already did and projecting your beliefs onto hers is just as offensive. In my opinion.

back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
It is fine that you wish to limit your children to feminist porn... whatever that may be because I have honestly never even heard of it until this thread. Call me naive but I figured porn was porn and labeling it anything else was just sub categories.

She said she _wishes_ she could limit her kids. Just because you've never heard of something, or can't possibly have any basis of comparison, doesn't make it ludicrous or ridiculous.

Quote:

I don't see how feminist porn can make someone more caring than regular porn.... I don't see how porn can make anyone caring about anything because honestly in my, albeit possibly limited, point of view porn is an instrument for arousal or education on other acts that can be done during sexual relations, regardless of your sexuality.
I'm afraid your personal experiences and viewpoint are, actually, too limited, if this is your opinion.

Quote:

However I would not expose my heterosexual child to homosexual porn anymore than I would expose my homosexual child to heterosexual porn.
Er...why?

Quote:

They will seek it out on their own when they want to and we will discuss it when it happens. Houdini is obviously coming from a religious background so I don't see how she can place her views any more unoffending than she already did and projecting your beliefs onto hers is just as offensive. In my opinion.
If people projecting their beliefs onto others offends you, I suggest you re-read the first part of your post, in which you dismissively announced that "porn is porn" and stated that you doubted that feminist porn was any different.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

*decided to send as a PM to not allow derailment. please edit any posts that quote this if you quoted before i editted.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Wow, Yoshua, Houdini already apologized and I don't think my post was offensive in the least. Just wow. "That being said people who are heterosexual look at it from their point of view," is a pretty accurate definition of heterocentrism. You might not know this, but people who AREN'T hetero don't look at it from our point of view.

And no, I don't plan to give my teenage children porn of any sort, feminist, queer, or mainstream hetero. I said that I wish I could limit them to feminist porn, but of course I can't and I have to just hope that the values I raise them with will influence their behavior more than porn.

To me, feminist values say that sex and gender are separate entities-- that boys can and should do anything that girls can and vice versa-- that women are just as sexual as men and deserve equal pleasure-- that childcare and housework should be shared fairly by all members of that household-- etc. etc. I majored in gender studies in college and feminism has been an important part of my identity since childhood. It influences all that I do.

Feminist porn, IMO, is porn where the penis is not the star of the show-- where women's pleasure is just as important as male pleasure-- where oral sex goes both ways for equal amounts of time-- where women don't HAVE to wear high heels or end up with ejaculate on their faces-- etc. etc. Check out websites like babeland.com or goodvibes.com for more on feminist porn.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Took it to PM - disregard!


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

pm'ed back lol, lots of edits. i apologize


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## Vypros (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
-- that boys can and should do anything that girls can and vice versa--

This is the only thing I take issue with. Maybe you can expand on this before I comment just to see if I'm understanding you correctly.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

I'd rather we not go into nitpicking here, lol. It is obvious to ME what is meant by that phrase.

Thank you for your input, Hottmama. I do appreciate it.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
i was on board with ya till I read this.... it is kinda condescending.

Understanding someone elses sexuality is a very hard thing, and I can attest that I know of NO man that truly understands a womans sexuality. I just assumed that it was just as hard for a woman to truly understand ours.

.

This gave me a sudden flashback to this article from the onion









GWH and others, thanks for teaching me a lot about something I'm bound to run into sooner than I'll be ready for it







:


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

OT Hiya, Simonee!!!







Oh, yeah, that article is hilarious.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Simonee -


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

:smooch: you girls.







:


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

hm. I can kill porn threads! How cool is THAT???!!!


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Back on topic young lady


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

a-hem. Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

An update...

Yesterday, we got him a book called _It's Perfectly Normal_ Link here: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Perfectly-...363133-9148044

It's a great book, very informative and unbiased. I handed it to him and told him that I do have extra information that we'll talk about it when it's just us two.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee* 
hm. I can kill porn threads! How cool is THAT???!!!


That, my friend, is a marketable skill. I suggest you call the Moral Majority and tell them your secret power. You'll be hired on immediately.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jacque Savageau* 
Back on topic young lady









Don't call me young







:










This has been so interesting to read. Here in Holland, porn and children is a very hot topic right now. The age of consent is 12, but cyberpedophilia is rampant and there is a new 'loverboy' culture (semi-consensual pimped prostitution) among children as young as 10. There is very good, explicit, woman-friendly material available, but the porn culture has gradually covered it all up. All the good sides of a strong openness culture are being taken over by smut.









GWH, you're such a cool mama.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

apparently some editing was done and post is no longer relevant.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodWillHunter* 
HELP! Last year, back in August? I was helping my oldest son clean his room and I ran across several printouts of hardcore porn pics. I calmly looked at him and said, "Sweetie, what's this?" and he burst into tears. I held him and told him it's totally normal to want to know what a woman looks like and totally normal to find these pictures attractive. However, I don't feel that hardcore porn is appropriate for an 11 year old, yk? I feel it's just too much for them to comprehend or understand or anything. Also I don't want him thinking that all women are like the women in the pictures. Most women don't have that kind of body, lol. I gave him the option of getting rid of it or keeping it (!) and he said he wanted to get rid of everything.

So, I thought we were done... but apparently not. Last Saturday, I was cleaning out his room in preparation for new furniture (whack my hand) and guess what I found? More hardcore porn. And this stuff was GRAPHIC. I just don't know what to do. It's not BAD... but... it is inappropriate for him, I think. He's only 11.5 and that's a lot for someone that age to wrap his brain around... I don't know what to do... I don't want him to think he's bad for having these feelings because he's NOT bad. He's a fabulous kid.

But, also some of the pic were of "hot teens" and, while that may be 18 or 19, he was downloading these at my parents' house... And y'know, we had a "family friend" get in trouble for child pornography (real child porn, too. It was awful). And we were worried about my DAD getting in trouble for getting illegal porn.

I don't mind him looking at scantily clad women... that's totally cool in my book, but I feel hardcore is way too much. Help?


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## Jeanne D'Arc (Apr 7, 2007)

*

Hello everyone, im a bit late on this thread but i would like to tell a bit of my story.

When i was younger i worked in the sex industry, i will not say exactly what i did, but let it suffice to say, it was the most traumatizing experience of my life , from which i will probably never recover.

It is enough to say there is alot of demoralizing, pain, and i now have PTSD from these experiences. It is not always consentual and the woman is very often doing it because of past sexual abuse and rape. To support this, is to support sexual trama and assault, because most of these women chose this out of mental derangement. Many are on drugs , and the suicide rate is high. This is not a happy, victimless industry. It is very sick.

Have i had sexual abuse in my history? Yes, ALOT. I probably never would have went that route if i had not. It is a facet for women who are really still girls stuck in a cycle of self abuse, and reliving the sexual trama they have experienced.

I will probably never fully heal from the extensive mental and sexual trauma that has taken place because of my previous profession. It only made an old wound bigger. Do not support pornography, do not support strip clubs, do not support prostitution these women are SUFFERING! And i dont care anyone else says otherwise because i have lived it! I have had my friends kill themselves and overdose on drugs. You may as well call all of it child porn because most of these women have never matured past the moment they were raped.

I am not pointing fingers at the OP or anyone in particular. I have
not read the whole thread thoroughly enough to know who is for
it or against it. I wanted to speak for the woman on the screen,
in the magazine or on the stage.

We do not like it, we are not happy, and we were probably molested by our father or a family friend. We PRETEND we like it.

Some of us become so traumatized we have lost the ability to enjoy sex ever again.And the fact that people are getting off on and benefiting from this suffering and pain and derangement, it makes me pretty sick to my stomach.
These girls need rehabilitation and love, not to be treated as masturbation
aids.

And thats all i have to say about it now.*


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Briseis_of.Troy* 
*

Hello everyone, im a bit late on this thread but i would like to tell a bit of my story.

When i was younger i worked in the sex industry, i will not say exactly what i did, but let it suffice to say, it was the most traumatizing experience of my life , from which i will probably never recover.

It is enough to say there is alot of demoralizing, pain, and i now have PTSD from these experiences. It is not always consentual and the woman is very often doing it because of past sexual abuse and rape. To support this, is to support sexual trama and assault, because most of these women chose this out of mental derangement. Many are on drugs , and the suicide rate is high. This is not a happy, victimless industry. It is very sick.

Have i had sexual abuse in my history? Yes, ALOT. I probably never would have went that route if i had not. It is a facet for women who are really still girls stuck in a cycle of self abuse, and reliving the sexual trama they have experienced.

I will probably never fully heal from the extensive mental and sexual trauma that has taken place because of my previous profession. It only made an old wound bigger. Do not support pornography, do not support strip clubs, do not support prostitution these women are SUFFERING! And i dont care anyone else says otherwise because i have lived it! I have had my friends kill themselves and overdose on drugs. You may as well call all of it child porn because most of these women have never matured past the moment they were raped.

I am not pointing fingers at the OP or anyone in particular. I have
not read the whole thread thoroughly enough to know who is for
it or against it. I wanted to speak for the woman on the screen,
in the magazine or on the stage.

We do not like it, we are not happy, and we were probably molested by our father or a family friend. We PRETEND we like it.

Some of us become so traumatized we have lost the ability to enjoy sex ever again.And the fact that people are getting off on and benefiting from this suffering and pain and derangement, it makes me pretty sick to my stomach.
These girls need rehabilitation and love, not to be treated as masturbation
aids.

And thats all i have to say about it now.*

Wow. I appreciate your speaking your truth.


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

I used to listen to Dr Laura (and Susan Powter and Tom Leykis) because even though I frequently didn't agree with her (or Tom), I liked the questions they brought up and it challenged me to verbally come up with responses when I was very human-contact deprived.

One thing I remember hearing on her show was a similar situation where the mom sat down and looked at the photos with her son and said, "This is someone's daughter. This is someone's sister. etc." That level of wording might get through to an 11yo more than lectures about "objectification".

We have a small amount of sex books, purposefully chosen for their respectfulness of equal partnership, and emphasis on caring for your partner and showing respect. We keep them on the shelf with all the other books. I figure when they want to know more about sex than mom tells them, they'll find them.

I actually brought one out the other day when ds1 hit ds2 in the testicles and we had a talk about why private parts are called private and I ended with a joke about "and I want grandkids". He didn't really get it, so I took down the sex book and we looked at the anatomical pictures of where sperm gets produced and why the testicles relate to having children.

For right now though we're good... ds1 was watching a commercial with all these women in bikinis, "I don't get it, all these girls and how come only one guy?"







we're not far away though...


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Briseis_of.Troy* 
*
These girls need rehabilitation and love, not to be treated as masturbation
aids.*

I respect your experience and thoughts on this, but I have several friends in the industry and have to say the industry runs the gamut from women who feel empowered by it to women with experiences like yours.

I spent a week with a friend of mine who works as a tantrika and met a lot of her friends in the industry and was completely wowed by the sacredness in which they held their work. They are really much closer to sexual mental health counselors than they are street prostitutes.

But even saying that, I would not want to support the industry on the whole for just the reasons you mentioned.


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
He was able to download them at your parents' despite the net nanny?? I don't have any experience with them, but if so, that's too bad.

I would bring it up with him again, discuss your concerns, and also highlight the legality and getting grandpa in trouble. If he's old enough to be curious, he's old enough to have a proper discussion about 'big picture' issues around hardcore porn, and why you have a problem with him looking at it - and involving his grandpa.

The problem is that most blockers focus more on harsh words like at maddox.xmission.com rather than porn.


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