# Advice from former vegans? Or those who stopped & later resumed a vegan diet?



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Any former vegans willing to share what made you start eating animal products? And how it went? Were you able to digest animal foods? Did you feel better or worse? How did it affect your overall health?

I have been vegetarian for 17 years & vegan for the last 7, but a year or two into being vegan I started feeling really really sick -- especially 'chronic fatigue' type symptoms. I was pretty much non-functional after a few years, until I cut out wheat and now I am somewhat functional but nowhere near 100% and my mood is way off... I do take vitamins & supplements but something inside me thinks I need to try actually eating animal products again to see if that helps.

I'm terrified, though!! I can't imagine eating them... I love being vegan (in terms of enjoying the food itself) and part of the reason I became vegan was because I just didn't like animal products, except cheese & yogurt -- which I was addicted to. I don't WANT to eat animal products but I've tried so many other things to try to feel better and I'm desperate for a solution. I also have a lot of allergies to fruits, nuts, etc. so maybe I could expand my diet a bit??

My thought is to maybe try just a few foods if I can obtain good sources locally (i.e. no hormones etc.) I certainly intend to continue to have the bulk of my diet be vegan. I was thinking maybe trying to sneak a few eggs into dishes, or maybe a bit of cheese? I don't really believe we are meant to eat dairy but at least I'd enjoy the taste of it... Ideally I'd just go with fish but I have never been able to stand even the thought of fish (to be fair, I haven't tried it since I was 7 or something). I don't think I could tolerate actually eating animal flesh anyway, but maybe it's just a mental block.

And, would it be weird to not tell anyone about my experiment? Like secretly eat animal products??? LOL I know that sounds strange but I'm worried I'll just want to go back to being vegan & confuse people in the process. And also not comfortable with more than a small amount of animal products. But I know I'll probably feel guilty if a friend prepares a special vegan dish for me while I go home & secretly eat an egg (though most of my friends are vegetarian or eat lots of veg dishes anyway). I'd feel equally awkward making some "guess what, I'm not vegan for now" announcement though. I guess I'm just not sure how to best handle it.

So, any 'been-there-done-that's?


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Yes, I have btdt, and I do not regret going back to animal products. I feel much healthier now! What caused me to start back was nursing my son through a growth spurt and my body just would not relent on the meat craves! Finally after weeks of that, I realized that I listen to my body on everything else but not this? Why when my body was giving me this message?

Gtg now, try to comeback n post more later!


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I was veg. for 8 years. I really loved it, but found that it was unsustainable for me after 3 term pregnancies + breastfeeding those babies. My third baby was last straw, so to speak. After a lot of research and thought, I decided to pursue a TF diet, including meat, broth, eggs, and butter from pastured animals. It was a very hard decision, but my husband could definitely tell a difference in my outlook, energy levels, and moods within about 6 weeks. (I couldn't really tell a difference, but it was very noticeable to him, and he strongly encouraged me to continue on with TF.) So, yes, for me it was worth it. I am still an omnivore, although I LOVE my veggies. I find myself functioning best on more of a paleo diet with very few grains, which is considerably different from my veg. diet.

If you are really interested in adding animal products to your diet, I think one of the easiest ways is through broths. They aren't overwhelming, and they are rich in a variety of nutrients. Another way is through soups, stews, stir-frys, etc. where meat is more of a complement to the dish, rather than the main focus of the meal. Personally, we love salmon and tilapia, but IMO, fish is harder to eat because it is such a strong flavor. Same thing with eggs.

Good luck! I hope that you can find the right path for you and your family.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks!

I did try eating some dairy products yesterday but it didn't feel right (in other words, didn't feel like what my body needs?) plus I think DS had a reaction -- I like to keep our diets all the same. I also bought a few eggs to try & will try them tomorrow. I used to be allergic to eggs but something has been telling me that's what I need, though I tried dairy first because it's a more familiar food to me. If eggs are a no-go, I'm not sure where I'll go from there. Fish seems like a good choice but I've never eaten fish in my life (aside from tuna & fish sticks as a very young child) so I don't know if I'll like it. Broths would be a good option too since I could disguise the flavor... I just don't know if I could eat an actual animal in any form though, broth or meat. I guess I'll take it slowly & see what I feel moved to try -- I'm hoping just adding eggs will be sufficient.

I do think I'd benefit from being grain-free but I also feel like it would be INCREDIBLY hard for me, I just can't imagine not eating grains ever, I definitely rely on them way too much. TF appeals to me on some level but the huge emphasis on meat & dairy scares me off. IDK. This is all so new to me & so weird, I felt strange eating dairy yesterday & have no desire to do so ever again.


----------



## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

I second the advice to start out with some bone broths. They are full of minerals. If you're not ready to eat meat quite yet, you can buy bones from the butcher and use those. Add a little raw apple cider vinegar to help extract more minerals.

Eat what makes you feel best, not what someone else says you should eat.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Sushi was a good bridge for me. Cooked rolls are a good place to start coz they are yummy like candy! Order an avocado roll and like a cooked eel or crab roll, and then just alternate, it can be weird at first, but I dont think you will regret adding in some animal products to your diet.

I agree with broth, I actually craved bone broth more than anything else--you can cook your veggies or rice in it to kind of disguise it.

We had a former/questioning veg support thread going for a while that was really helpful to me at the time-maybe we should get another one going!

I felt so burned out on beans and grains that my body was rejecting them, and I did dairy then, too, I felt like all I was eating was cheese, beans, bread, totally felt bloated and moody and just like those foods were unappetizing. The first time I cooked eggs after being vegan, the smell was too strong, and I couldnt handle it, but now we have yard hens, and I love eggs for breakfast.

I definitely ave a noticeable improvement in mood, energy, hair/skin. Its hard to quantify, but I do feel healthier. Plus, I just was hungry hungry all the time and could not get full.

Now I am coping with having to accept that eating grains at this time is hurting me! I am kinda addicted to crunchy chip things and warm bread, but lately my stomach hurts every time I eat them







so my understanding of the foods my body needs is still evolving.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Well I could definitely use a support thread. This is way harder than I thought. Eggs were incredibly tough to eat -- they smelled fine, they tasted OK I guess, but the minute they hit my stomach I felt nauseous. I only got a few bites down. I suppose I could bake them into something but that kind of defeats the goal of decreasing grains. I now have half a block of goat cheese & half a carton of eggs sitting in my fridge and no desire to go anywhere near them!! I don't know how I could handle bone broth or fish (foods I've never eaten) if I can't even handle foods I used to eat. I'm torn between giving up (yes, after 3 days, pathetic I know!!) or keep trying. I love being vegan and this is hard!!!


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

You know, it isn't all or nothing. You don't have do conquer the world today, lol. If you need a break from thinking about it, take a few days, or weeks, off, and then come back to it. And if the only way you can eat an egg is in something baked, who cares? You may, at some point, need to back off from eating so many grains, but do you *have* to do it today? Can you gradually ease into it? Also, I know it isn't necessarily the best, but sometimes it's easier to go to a really nice restaurant and eat meat/eggs/dairy/broth/etc. that someone else has cooked for you. That way, you don't have to smell it while it's cooking, deal with the prep work, or see the mess in the kitchen afterwards. I really like what JessicaRenee said: "Eat what makes you feel best, not what someone else thinks you should eat". I would add to that, eat it how, when, and where it works for you, not how/when/where someone else think you should.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

LOL I am very much an all-or-nothing/black & white thinker. I do feel like I have to do this now, today, because it's something I've been toying with for YEARS so I have to do it now while I'm in this mode. Once I give up, it may be several more years before I'd be willing to try again, so it's kind of now or never! I am sick of feeling like crap... I've been sick for my entire marriage. I've been sick for DS's entire life. I just want to feel well again, and I know no matter what that it will take time but this is kind of a last resort, I can't afford any more doctors or tests, this is it. I am committing myself to two weeks, trying a small amount of animal products each day. I feel like I'm on the opposite of a detox diet lol, and I just have to get through the first few days.

Someone linked me to a flax bread recipe & DH made it this morning-- I hardly tasted the eggs and it was really yummy!! And only flax, no flours or anything. Awesome.







I am thinking you're right, gardenmommy -- I need to just have someone else prepare a few things for me so I don't get overwhelmed by the whole process. Plus I've never even cooked meat, since I've been veg since I was 12, though I love learning about food so I do have *some* idea of how to cook it. I think I might go to Trader Joe's and get one of their prepared meals with meat in it or something. Then it's less of a commitment, and if I don't like it I'm sure DH will finish it for me...

DS (who has been vegan since conception!) loves the eggs and he liked the cheese too, though not as over-the-top crazy for it as I expected. He likes every food he's ever tried anyway but I was still somewhat surprised that he seemed to physically tolerate it well and liked it and all. The other half of why I want to do this now is that DS is slowly weaning... he might continue to nurse a little for another year or two, who knows, but he's definitely getting way less breastmilk than just a few months ago and that was his only 'animal' food source. I thought being vegan was healthiest and best for him but now that he's not getting much breastmilk I'm questioning my stance and wondering if he'll end up as sick as me in a few years. So I owe it to him, too, to reevaluate our diet right now.


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I hear you on needing to "strike while the iron is hot", lol. I'm rather like that myself. If you feel you have the momentum, then go for it! I was very strict veg. (had the occasional dairy/egg/honey treat) when I was pregnant with DS1. He tends toward the picky side by nature, but has adapted quite well to a more TF diet. He's not really into new things, but will usually try them. He was nearly 8 when we made the switch, he's now 13. I think you can do it, although it may happen more in fits and spurts then all at once. Be patient with yourself and your family, and don't get discouraged by things that aren't happening at the speed you want.


----------



## dovey (May 23, 2005)

I just started eating eggs too. I've been vegan for 8+ years, vegetarian for about 10 years before that and I feel great. The reason for the end of my vegan-ness is my daughter (age 5). She really wanted pet hens. So we got some chicks for her at the end of last summer. They just started laying eggs a few weeks ago.

I've been finding them pretty yucky in their pure form too - rather strong tasting. Here are some ways I've been disguising them for the section of the family who is grossed out by the eggs:

Egg dumplings - Take about 1 cup of flour (maybe spelt if you don't eat wheat), break an egg or two into it. Add a little salt and mix. Add water if needed to make a stiff dough. Knead, roll into little balls (about the size of beans) and cook for a few minutes in boiling water. Serve with Earth Balance or pesto or marinara, etc.

Pancakes (buckwheat is good)

Cake

Chocolate Pudding

Corn Muffins

I made custard last night, and unfortunately, the dog was the only one who really liked it. Way too eggy.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks for the egg ideas! I need all the ideas I can get...

I had some meat last night (chicken at Chipotle's). So I did it. It was not as weird as I thought it would be, actually, and tasted just fine, especially with lots of hot sauce! I also felt full much more quickly... I usually just eat & eat & eat and never feel full even if my stomach is in pain. So maybe this is good. I don't know. DS tried it and seemed to like it. I thought he'd gorge on it lol, he has wanted to try meat for so long -- but he just had a few bites then ate his guacamole and talked about how much he loved the guac lol.

The other thing I've noticed is that allowing myself to do this 2-week experiment feels very freeing. I became vegetarian a few years before I became anorexic, and a few years after I became vegan, and I always say being vegan 'cured' my eating disorder. I guess it was a socially-acceptable channel for my obsessive control over food? (That's not to say I didn't have lots of other reasons/benefits with being vegan!) I never 'cheated' even once, not when I started getting sick, not when I was pregnant... I think, even if I go right back to being vegan in a week or so, that this is a really good experience for me mentally. I know that probably sounds strange, and maybe only makes sense to others who've had eating disorders... but I feel like being able to try this for a couple weeks is me being TRULY 'recovered' now. Unexpected plus, I guess.

So. I went shopping and got a few chicken and salmon burgers (already cooked, not sure I can deal with raw meat just yet!) and some butter and yogurt and more eggs. Just enough to get through the next week or so. No idea what I'm going to do with these items lol!


----------



## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

Here's the recipe I use for quinoa burgers... obviously, they aren't grain free but they're pretty tasty. The eggs hold them together but you don't taste them. I add cumin to mine and serve them with romainew lettuce for the "bun" and sliced avocado. http://shelookethwell.blogspot.com/2009/02/frugal-and-healthy.html


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you, looks yummy & I love quinoa!!!

Had a few bites of salmon with dinner tonight and *gasp* it was really really good!!! I have never ever tasted a fish I liked (although I never tried much lol). I was so shocked I liked it.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Yay, crunchymommy! I'm glad you enjoyed the salmon patty!

Some of what you are saying about the food control stuff and identity was coming up on the former veg support thread--I think its a good idea to get one going again, how bout we stick on your thread for now since its pretty active, the get an ongoing one starting in Feb? I can relate to the ED stuff, too, and I feel like allowing myself to be free from guilt r shame when I eat and accepting that the foids that nourish my body are sometimes animal products has been really healing for me









Have you tried butter or yogurt? The Oikos vanilla honey yogurt is heavenly, and I really feel soothed in my belly and body when I eat it--it's great for dipping apple slices or grapes in too. I think often its not just the animal protein, but the fats can be really good too, so maybe just some butter on cooked veggies?

Oh, an idea for the eggs: egg "noodles"- whisk two eggs together with seasoning of choice, ie garlic, sesame oil, soy sauce then pour out thin onto hot griddle or pan, cook in big thin disk, whne cooked through, slice into long noodles and serve, especially good in broth--a kale broth or miso broth are two of my faves. Also nice to top salads!

The goat cheese could go next to hummus and olives and crackers, just a little cheese with the rest of it.

Good journey! When I started, I did like you are and just would consume some kind of animal based food daily, even if it's just a little bit or you get on a kick with one thing for a while.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Good ideas! I bought yogurt but only tried a bite of it. I am a little overwhelmed by dairy since I literally used to _survive_ off it years ago!! But I will try more soon. And I got some good butter, cooked green beans in it & it was decent... I am avoiding cheese for a bit, I'm afraid I will find a cheese I love & not be able to stop eating it lol! I kind of want to keep dairy minimal but at the same time I really need to replace some of the processed junk we've been eating (Earth Balance, Daiya cheese, etc.) I never intended to rely on soy & processed stuff so much when I first went vegan...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> Some of what you are saying about the food control stuff and identity was coming up on the former veg support thread--I think its a good idea to get one going again, how bout we stick on your thread for now since its pretty active, the get an ongoing one starting in Feb? I can relate to the ED stuff, too, and I feel like allowing myself to be free from guilt r shame when I eat and accepting that the foids that nourish my body are sometimes animal products has been really healing for me


Yes let's start another thread in Feb. I'm glad you kind of understand about the food control thing, I feel kinda nuts talking about that & can't really talk about it in real life! Something dawned on me last night too... For a lot of the last several years I've been toying with giving up veganism but I wasn't able to take the plunge. About a month ago, I officially decided to take some space from my parents, trying to deal with some childhood stuff & figure things out... and now I really think that not having them involved in my life right now has made it easier to take this step. So weird because they were against me being vegan & would have supported this transition whole-heartedly... IDK, I guess I just discovered something that I can't put into words quite yet. The timing is interesting and not as irrelevant & out of the blue as I thought...


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Hey crunchy_mommy and other former veg*ns--I remember some of you from our previous support thread!

Crunchy, it sounds like you're taking a lot of great steps. Congratulations on being committed to your own health and wellness! I feel like for me, it is truly healing to give myself permission to eat the foods that make me feel good. The only ED-type behavior I ever had was binge eating (balanced with some periods of restriction, of course), so my journey has been a bit different, but so much of my relationship with food has been healed over the last year or so as I transitioned into being an omnivore. This has been one of the best things I ever did, even though it felt really tough and awkward at first.

I still have huge issues with factory farming and the way a lot of animal foods are produced, but I've mostly figured out how to only give my money to farmers I really want to support. In fact, I'm sitting here right now drinking hot cocoa made with the raw goats milk we get delivered every week. I found some farmers who are just getting started and are truly kind to their animals, and they deliver raw milk and eggs to our doorstep. It's been a big relief for me to learn that I can be omni and still really care about farm animal welfare.


----------



## birdie.lee (Jun 23, 2010)

.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

birdie.lee, do you want to say more? I am really appreciating hearing everyone's experiences.

I haven't had any more meat/fish since first trying them but I will probably have a bit more tomorrow. Have AF and just really want my familiar food for a day or two I guess, though I'm experimenting with dairy a little at least. I am trying to figure out if I want to expand to other items or just stick to the things I've tried for a bit (chicken, salmon, eggs, yogurt, butter, & goat cheese). I have to admit, I'd really love to go out & get an ice cream sundae. With whipped cream!! That's the only thing I really really want. I don't even know what else to try. I don't want too much dairy and I'm a bit afraid that trying ice cream and cheddar cheese will lead me down the path of dairy addiction lol. OK so maybe that's a bit of leftover ED mentality. I had no idea how much I was still influenced by ED thoughts. Oh well.

I am feeling pretty good mentally & not too bad physically either.


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> The other thing I've noticed is that allowing myself to do this 2-week experiment feels very freeing.


This really stood out to me. When I first decided to make the transition to eating meat, I was really making a decision to try a TF diet. I gave myself 6 weeks to really try it, and then I told myself I could choose to either continue it, or go back to begin veg. I, also, found that a defined time period for experimenting gave me a lot more freedom than I had otherwise felt in moving into the realm of eating animal foods again.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes! In the back of my mind I'm simultaneously thinking, "This is no experiment, I'm doing this long-term," _and_ "Well it's only for 2 weeks," LOL!


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Well, lol, it turned out to be long-term for me, too. 5 years later, I'm still at it. But, I have learned that people change, and what suited you before the demands of pregnancy and nursing may not suit you now. What suits you now may not be what you need when you are done with the physical demands of growing a baby. So, I'm keeping my options open as my babies grow up, and I'll see how my body changes through the years.


----------



## birdie.lee (Jun 23, 2010)

.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

birdee.lee, those are similar feelings to what I'm experiencing. The guilt isn't as overriding as I thought it would be at least -- I think I took so much time to make this decision & come to terms with it that I did a lot of my grieving and guilting before I ate a single bite of meat! I'm glad you are feeling better so quickly. Even just eating a bit of eggs & dairy with very minimal meat (only had it twice all week) I feel better, stronger, and calmer too -- the calmness was a surprise, I've had long-time anxiety! One of my friends told me I look much better too. To be honest, I sort of wish I tried this a few years ago. Remaining vegan through my entire pregnancy and 3 years of high-demand nursing (he nursed several times an _hour_ until he was two!) on top of being already chronically ill, seems to have done a number on me and I worry that I'll *never* fully recover.

I've never heard of the Brewer Diet.


----------



## birdie.lee (Jun 23, 2010)

.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Don't be sorry about anything!! I wanted to hear others' experiences! Thanks for sharing & feel free to share more, ask more, whatever, this thread can be for all of us.









I did tell all my friends about this. How could I NOT tell them, you know? I kept picturing them making some special vegan thing for me and feeling guilty that I'd go home and eat meat, it would be hypocritical. I have the most amazing friends ever and I wanted them to know. And they are being incredibly supportive -- I think most of them are just relieved that it will be a bit easier for them to cook for me & all of us to share meals. And they are happy for me that I am doing something to improve my health and all. I do get the jokes about giving me a steak lol (I'm so not there yet, not sure if I'll ever eat red meat!) but it's all in good fun and I had the most amazing cupcakes yesterday that my friend made!!! It's really great to be able to share in meals more fully, that's not something I ever understood because I'm not sure I ever experienced it until now.

I haven't told family, I am taking a break from my family indefinitely anyway... not sure what to do about DH's family though. We don't see them often, once every couple of months -- part of me wants to just go on eating vegan around them but I don't know that I'd feel right doing that. My reservation about telling them is mostly that they eat so much junk. It's easy for them to understand that no, DS & I won't eat cheetos or whatever because they have dairy (do cheetos even have actual dairy? lol) but I'm not sure if they will 'get' that just because we are expanding our options a bit, that doesn't mean they can feed DS just anything, and that doesn't mean we will eat pork fried rice or processed cheese sauce or whatever. I'm not sure what to do there.

I admitted out loud that I really want to go get an ice cream sundae, with whipped cream. That was actually kind of hard for me to admit and I did feel a bit guilty about wanting it so I hear you there with the guilt thing. This is an interesting experience for me.

Hmmm now I'm thinking I should take a trip to the ice cream store!! I don't even know where there's ice cream around here actually, I've lived here for years & never once got any!


----------



## mamandedeux (Jan 15, 2010)

Another convert here! I was vegetarian for a total of 16 years, vegan for about 4. About 6 months ago, I started eating meat and fish. My boys and DH are HUGE meat eaters, and we get organic beef, pork and poultry at cost (DH's family are organic meat farmers). It simply did not make sense for me to keep on cooking a separate meal for myself, especially with a busy household. I had a revelation over the summer when DH came home with 2 huge salmons, and I bbqued them only to watch the kids and DH devour them while I ate the side of asparagus dipped in butter because that was the only veg option I had time to make. I now eat pork, beef and fish, but it has to be from our stash so I'm comfortable with where it came from. Honestly, I've never felt better. My body did not take any time to adjust.


----------



## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

I've BTDT. I was veggie for 6+ years, vegan for the last year or two. But evenutally my meat cravings were more than I could take. I started sneaking tastes of lunchmeat (the only meat that DH would dare to bring into the house) at the end of my last pregnancy and into the infancy of my last child.

Eventually I started experimenting and then made a HUGE leap and moved to the country and started raising meat animals. Raising my own meat chickens, and then choosing to eat locally, sustainably raised beef and pork was a huge shift for me. But once I recognized and acknowledged that my body was craving... NEEDING... those things... it was easier to accept. For me, raising my own meat animals made a huge difference. I didn't love eating meat, but knowing that I had raised the animals from infancy, that the animals had had a good and rewarding life was HUGE. It made me feel so much better about eating meat.

These days I eat far too close to the SAD. But I still feel good that we raise our poultry/eggs, and our beef and pork comes from locally raised, sustainable sources. Peace of mind goes a long ways towards feeling good about one's diet.


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I had those same feelings of guilt, of "what do I do without the veg. label", of "how do I tell other people", etc. It was really hard emotionally for me to separate from being veg. I can't really tell you that it went away overnight, but gradually, I guess I just let go of it. At some point, not really defined, I made a decision to be thankful that I have access to really good quality meat, dairy, and eggs. Thankful that I have options to improve my health, and that I am not stuck with malnourishment.

It's funny, but when I finally made the decision to eat meat, I went straight to eating red meat. I craved it, and when I ate my first bite of roast beef, it was like my body said "THANK YOU!!" I felt really good about it. Around the 6 week mark, which was my end date for my experiment, I was struggling with whether or not to continue eating meat. DH weighed in with his opinion, and told me that whatever I was doing, he thought I should continue, because he was noticing that I was calmer, more even-tempered with our children, and just generally easier to live with. That was the confirmation I needed to keep going on with my TF foray.

It's hard to let go of how we define ourselves, and to learn to redefine our beliefs and actions. It takes a lot of courage and strength to listen to what your body is telling you, and to follow through, esp. when it pertains to food.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

I hear what you all are saying about the identity shift. I was veg for a long time and didnt realize how greatly it affected my interactions with . . . Well, the world in general!

I took several months to fully "come out" and not everyone had the best reactions, some folks hurt my feelings, the same people who always gave me a hard time for being veg









Eatwild.org and localharvest have been great starting points for sourcing quality meat, craigslist and facebook, too. I really dont much buy meat from the grocery store unless I see wild caught seafood or organic meat on sale. I've put together a pretty good support network of farmers here. I am lucky to live in an agricultural area, though. If we were more urban, I would probably do the same, ourcing on CL and the others as close as possible and just make a big day trip (or even overnight) to pick up the meat.

Bodhitree, good to "see" you! I was drinking hot cocoa from fresh local milk when I read your post, too









Gardenmommy, I like what you said about eating the red meat, and your body saying "thank you". I felt similar, too, and still do when I drink a cup of bone broth or finish up a great dinner









About the guilt . . . My biggest issue with meat eating was factory farms and big ag corporations--not necessarily the act of human animal consuming other animal, because I know it is part of nature for some creatures to depend on other creatures for food. When I realized I could source from farmers, that was a huge relief and much of the meat guilt dissipated--when I hand that money to a farmer, it is going to a real person in my community, the animals are raised on a small, sustainable scale--it really "clicked" for me then that meat eating is not unsustainable in and of itself but rather the sytems that have developed along with the industrialization of our food supply that are inherently unsustainable . ..*shrug*

Had sushi today! My body craves it sometimes, so I indulge, even though I am inland here. I only wish the nigiri was prettier--I think what my body really wanted was the bright roe that they dress the sushi with. Next time, I will make sure to get a roll loaded with that stuff
















love to you all! I am glad to see this thread rolling. There are some things that come up which average peeps might not understand if theyve nevere btdt, so I am very happy we can all support each other.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I was veg and then went vegan. I went back to an omni diet after I had cancer, and had lost my appetite for months and couldn't keep food down. Once I was diagnosed and getting treatment I craved meat. Of course I was able to digest it. I haven't even looked back. In fact it's been over 10 years since I went back to eating meat.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

A little update... Something unexpected I've noticed -- my giant swollen pregnant-looking belly is gone!! I still need to lose weight but I can fit in my pants again! I must definitely have been retaining fluids or something and animal products have somehow helped that??!? IDK but I am very happy about it. I figured animal products might give me a bit more energy and in turn might help me work out more to lose weight but I wasn't thinking just a week of animal products would help that bloating disappear.









Also, I tried eel sushi! I couldn't even taste the eel actually. It was good. I also bought some beef stock as a first step to maybe trying red meat... not sure about that but at least I bought it (I am still far from being able to cook it myself lol). I am having a bit of trouble finding organic dairy though... and are cheeses from Europe more likely to use sustainable practices & hormone-free/no antibiotics/grass-fed/pastured/etc. if I can't get certified organic cheese? I keep thinking that Europeans use smarter & more natural milk sources but I'm not sure if that's true. I'm pretty confused about all the labels in general actually.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't get on here much these days, but I am so glad I found this thread!!

I was a vegetarian for 15 years, then I started eating fish. I have stuck with fish but for the past 6 months I've been moving closer to a vegan diet (that is, eating mostly vegetable-based diet with fish here & there, but cutting out dairy & eggs). But I'm starting to think that I'm moving in the wrong direction.

Since giving birth (almost three years ago) I've experienced a number of non-serious but nagging medical issues... low iron, hair loss, low energy, fatigue, etc. Nothing is wrong with me, but I feel like I'm deficient in ... something... not sure what!

I don't necessarily crave meat, but I feel like something is missing from my diet, if that makes sense.

Anyone have any good books or web sites I should read? I might try adding meat to my diet for a temporary experiment. (Honestly, like crunchy_mommy, I don't like the idea of eating meat... I also don't know what it'll do to our food budget since I can hardly squeeze in the organic veggies I get for us now & I won't buy commercially/factory-raised anything.)


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> Anyone have any good books or web sites I should read? I might try adding meat to my diet for a temporary experiment. (Honestly, like crunchy_mommy, I don't like the idea of eating meat... I also don't know what it'll do to our food budget since I can hardly squeeze in the organic veggies I get for us now & I won't buy commercially/factory-raised anything.)


The budget part is tough!! I am able to get a 5lb free-range organic chicken for $11 or so... which seems like a ton for me when I think of all the fresh veggies I could get for that same cost!! But one chicken can go a long way, because I don't need a lot of it to feel 'full' and can't really eat more than a small serving anyway... I shred it up and freeze half and the other half gets added bit by bit to whatever I'm making throughout the week. Then I make a stock from the carcass, and actually I'm able to reuse the carcass again for a second round of stock as soon as the first batch is done (crockpot). I could probably reuse it several more times but two rounds gives us a lot.

But aside from chicken, there just aren't a ton of options. Once in a while I've been buying grass-fed organic ground beef. It's $6 for a pound! That's crazy expensive!! So I just buy it once or twice a month when I feel like I need it. I actually feel like I need to be eating meat almost daily, but I'm having a lot of trouble with that, can't afford it, beef & chicken are the only options that fit my criteria (free-range & organic), I can't find turkey or ribs or pork or whatever else. I struggle to eat fish, I'm not sure it does what I need it to do for me & it tastes fine but not great. I've added back in dairy & eggs but I have trouble incorporating eggs into meals (I won't just eat a scrambled egg or whatever). I think I've been relying too much on dairy, once again, though I'm consciously trying not to.

Part of me just wants to go back to being vegan. I'm not sure if that's me talking or the remnants of my eating disorder, I kind of feel like I've lost control since giving up veganism, I didn't realize just how much it was tied up in my ED and I thought I'd moved past all that... But I do think animal products are making a difference in my health (small, like it's another layer of my health issues?) so I'm having trouble actually getting these foods into my diet & getting variety. And I'm questioning so much of what I always believed about 'healthy eating' too.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Crunchy_mommy, I've never suffered from an ED, but I know that all my control issues get tied up with food. Food makes me feel simultaneously out of control (I did not grow up with healthy eating habits & will mindlessly eat all day if I let myself) & totally in control (I can decide what to put in my body). This definitely plays a big role in my diet decisions.

Have you thought of seeing a therapist or seeking out someone to talk to about your ED? Sometimes these things have a way of creeping back into our lives.

I think I'm going to wait to put meat back in ... I'm going to try to eat more fish (I can get quality canned wild-caught salmon at Costco when I feel I can't afford fresh/frozen) & add eggs & dairy (limited dairy). We'll see... I may be back on here in a week or two as an omnivore.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

t2009, I would at least try some meat & see how you feel. I don't think fish does for me what meat seems to do. Maybe my body is just weird though!! I don't even crave meat, I just notice I feel much more run-down when I go a day or two without eating it (which is often, since I'm still getting use to this!)

I have thought about going back into therapy, I've needed to for years, and not just for the ED, but it seems expensive and never helped a ton in the past, though I think I'd be more committed to it now than when I was a teen. But DH works long/weird hours so I don't see how I could even make it work anyway, I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing DS with me to therapy, he understands too much. In the past few years there have been several times I felt I was headed for a relapse but mostly I've been able to avoid it. I'm weird about food & have food rules and sometimes skip meals and stuff but I also actually _need_ to lose a few pounds this time so it's kind of different. But I think I just need to stay strong and get through this transition & I'll probably be OK.


----------



## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Just chiming in of one of those that went from 8 years of vegetarianism and on and off vegan to almost primal. I feel so much better this way but have been adding grain slowly back in after a year of grain free.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Koalamom I am on a similar path although I was seven years vegetarian, then omni about 7 more, then primal and now low-grain mostly primal. I went from veg to omni while PG with twins. I started primal about 1.5 years ago and relaxed it after a year, when I had lost more weight than I wanted to although I felt lean and healthy still.

Pretty happy with what I eat these days. BTW I was not overweight but I never had a flat stomach in all my life until after I went primal. I also always felt like I couldn't stop eating, like I was never satisfied. Now I usually feel satisfied. If sweets call to me, I will even indulge, but I don't get sucked in... Somewhere along the way I think I repaired some deficiencies that made me hungry most of the time. I also had a hormone-related skin condition for several years that went away (it's not even considered curable BTW) and I am pretty sure that resulted from eliminating soy. I preferred soy milk to dairy even as an omni and had it every single day for years.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Curious if "primal" is the same thing as "paleo"? Also, how do those differ from "traditional"?

I'm very confused & I think I definitely want to do some more research before I start eating meat. I have requested a bunch of books from the library on a number of different types of diets. I got one & started reading it: Eat to Live by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, which advocates a vegan diet. It seems compelling & also well-researched. But I've been basically vegan for the past two months & I'm not seeing much difference. But maybe I need to be adding more fresh veggies.

I will say, though, that I'm experiencing what I think Crunchy_mommy did -- adding dairy & eggs haven't really made much of a difference. So I think that if more veggies doesn't make me feel better then I'll try meat. We'll see... but I'm glad to read about everyone's experiences. I know no single diet fits everyone. And it's so confusing!!


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Primal and paleo are not the same but are similar. Both exclude grains, but paleo consistently excludes dairy as well. The primal diet is a little more flexible, while paleo restricts a few more foods--maybe nuts? I really don't pay attention to the differences as I found my comfort zone is more relaxed than both.

Most of the time "traditional" refers to a diet that is omnivorous and includes grains and legume, but the grains and legumes are soaked to improve absorption while many fermented foods are used as well. But "traditional" also is an umbrella term for all three diets as all three reference historic/prehistoric approaches to eating. WAP is another term used for the "traditional" grain-including diet. This stands for Weston A. Price, which you can look up online to find more information.

All three diets emphasize increasing healthy fats, whole foods, and live foods. All three include animal products. All three have concerns about grains, with primal and paleo exlcluding them and "traditional" or Weston A. Price diets giving them special treatments to mitigate their more harmful effects.

Supplementation to improve deficiencies can be very important as well. Previous vegans probably have eaten a low fat diet and Vitamin D deficiency is thus very very common. In fact it is common for everyone. Cod liver oil is a typical supplement for all three diets, also magnesium, and for me iodine supplementation is also helpful. I also take B-complex and iron but I do not take multivitamins so really I take very few supplements. Personally I eat a lot of eggs and sardines and salmon as well as dairy and vegetables esp raw and fermented.

Adding a D supplement or a B complex can make a big difference in energy/general health as can some other things if you might have a deficiency. So a change in diet may or may not "work" if you have something like this affecting you as well. For me, eating many grain foods keeps me feeling sluggish whether I am eating meat or not.


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

For me, dairy and eggs (even though they were almost exclusively pastured) didn't do it for me. Fish is nice, but doesn't cut it for me. The only thing that really made a big difference for me was red meat: specifically lamb and beef.

As for the expense, IMO, the most cost-effective way to get good beef, etc. is to buy directly from the farm. If you are just wanting to try it without a long-term commitment, then buy a few pounds from the natural foods store. If you really want to eat it long-term, find a farmer and buy it from him. Ask if you can just buy a few pounds, or by the quarter. If you have to buy a larger quantity, find someone to split it with. IMO, even if it's not certified organic, if it's pastured, it will be far and away better than anything you buy in the store. Many farmers can't afford organic certification, but they follow sustainable farming practices, and are very close to organic anyway.

A point of reference, my family of 7 gets a 1/2 beef every fall. It lasts us more than a year, as we eat as many plant foods as we do meats. It's all in how you prepare it!


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

We don't have a separate freezer, just the space over our fridge, so we can't really buy large quantities of beef from a farm. A lot of my friends are vegetarians but I *might* be able to find someone to split stuff with me. I'm not sure yet whether I'm totally willing to commit to this enough to buy large amounts of meat anyway.

Grocery shopping yesterday was hard, I'm finding the options really limited in the stores, and when you factor in my budget there's very little I've been able to buy.

Right now, I'm trying to eat more eggs & lots of chicken. Those are the most affordable & readily available around here (well, a lot is available, but most of it isn't free-range or organic). I really feel like I need a bit of red meat once a week or so, but the only kind I can find is ground beef, and I'm not a big fan (though I'll eat it) -- maybe I just need more recipes to use it with...

Still working on fish but that's expensive too. I really don't like tuna, apparently... and it's kind of turning me off from other fish. I can't stand that fishy smell & taste. The salmon was OK and I tried shrimp, which was such a foreign texture to me that I'm still not sure about it, but I'd like to try it again & a few different recipes. I'm not sure if fish really does much for me though. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

Often I feel like it would just be easier to go back to being vegan, but seeing how much better I feel makes me try to force some meat into myself!


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for the info on paleo vs. primal vs. traditional! Very interesting though I think paleo/primal would be too far in the other direction for me. Put a hold on Nurturing Traditions at the library & I'm eager to read it.

Well I just found out that after 3 months of taking iron pills I am still extremely low (it went up like one point). So I am ready. I'm not squeamish & just want to go to red meat like now!

Anyone have a recipe? Something with a less expensive cut & that I can mix with veggies or a grain? Thinking stew? Or something cooked in liquid? I have no idea how to go about this. I have literally never cooked meat (aside from making chicken soup from scratch once or twice for my husband)!


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I don't have a recipe, I'm still new at this myself, but I can suggest tacos! Just cook up ground meat with sauteed onions and chili powder & spices (or a packet of taco seasoning)... I ate a lot of taco-type meals when I was just starting out because I could hide the meat in with lots of fresh veggies, and the spicy flavors kind of disguised the taste even more. That's pretty much the only thing I know how to make with red meat. Oh, that and spicy peanut noodles, which is just sauteed veggies, ground meat, and a spicy peanut coconut sauce over rice noodles. Those are things I made when I was vegan, so I just threw in meat rather than learn a new recipe.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Those sound like good ideas. Makes me think I love to make vegan chili & cld just add ground meat to that too. ... Also the burger joint down the street serves grass fed, hormone free meat so I may just let someone else do the preparing the first time around.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, head to that burger joint! It was so much easier the first time or two to have someone else do the prep. Then for some strange reason I felt a very strong need to do it myself (even picking meat off a chicken carcass -- gross, but I can't ask DH to do it, I HAVE to do it myself). Maybe I'm weird. But definitely the first couple meals I ate out to make it easier, and it's awesome that you have such a perfect option nearby!

(and chili - great idea!)


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow! I did it... It felt so weird (actually it felt very right...) but after 16+ years I couldn't believe I was eating a hamburger. DH has never seen me eat meat & we've known each other half our lives! I plan to try for at least 2 months... we'll see. It's definitely affected (ahem...) how things are moving in my digestive tract, but could be because I started out with a burger (though I had it with a salad & not fries!). But other than that I've already noticed some positive changes.

I feel like I'm still coming to terms with it, vegetarianism was SUCH a part of my identity & it not only feels strange to not be a vegetarian, it also feels like I've been proven wrong in a silly way (like my pediatrician was right all those years ago to try to dissuade me...). I also feel slightly angry at the veg. movement for not treating women's bodies with more respect -- we are the ones that suffer disproportionately from iron deficiency & anemia, & I'm beginning to think that vegans & vegetarians are just not being honest about the fact that these diets simply can't work for some people, usually women (I know many women who maintain their health on a veg diet, but not me & apparently I'm not alone). I'm still obviously working through these things. Crunch-mommy, I don't mean to take over your thread, but I'm really appreciating this thread right now for the encouragement I've found here! Thanks!


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow t2009, I'm glad this is feeling 'right' for you & you're seeing positive changes already!!! And yeah, I think giving up the identity of veg*n was one of the hardest parts, but now I find it freeing to not have a label. I can still eat 95% veg if I want but I don't have to fit myself into a box, you know? It's really triggering for me, with my ED, giving up my food control and all, and I've ended up starving myself for several days at a time again lately, but I'm trying to avoid a total relapse and hope that this ultimately leads to a healthier relationship with food. At the very least, the improvement in my physical health is worth trying to work through this.

I can really relate to some of your feelings. I spent so long convinced that a vegan diet was the healthiest one. I hate hate hate that I've had to basically eat my words. I hate that I spent all that energy convincing people that veganism was so healthy, when it wasn't (for me). I am annoyed & feel deceived by the veg*n movement. Since I started eating meat, I've looked into this more, and found that MANY people who called themselves veg*n did in fact eat meat occasionally -- or even often. They listened to their bodies and ate what they needed to but continued to call themselves veg and claimed to be healthy and all... In my 'research' I was able to find lots of long-term vegetarians who maintained decent health but practically no vegans -- most were vegan for up to 2 years before giving it up, or ate whatever they wanted but remained MOSTLY vegan, or claimed they were healthy but were blind to the fact that they were suffering. I was vegan for 7 or 8 years and I never ever 'cheated'. I feel like I've done a lot of harm to my body & if I'd 'cheated' occasionally I'd probably be in much better shape... and maybe if I knew so many others 'cheated' or took breaks from veg*nism, then I'd have been more compelled to do the same? IDK, so frustrating, hope I'm making sense...

Start off slowly on the meat, don't eat more than you feel like you can. I haven't gotten sick or anything but I do think sometimes I push myself to eat more meat than my body is ready for & have some digestive effects and all.

And don't apologize for 'taking over' my thread, it's nice to talk to others going through the same thing as I am right now! Interestingly, I have TWO friends who were long-term vegetarians (15-20 years) that just started eating meat again after I did. So weird but kind of affirming for me, too.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Take care of yourself crunchy_mommy! Would it help to glob onto another "label" (TF or paleo?) Maybe not to address your need to control food intake but at least to give you focus & reason to keep feeding yourself? I don't know if that makes sense. I know I find myself reaching for another label -- it's just what I'm used to... I've identified myself with my diet for so long it doesn't make sense to me not to have a name for the way I eat. I figure it's probably not "healthy" but it's a period of transition so I'm going with it.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

That makes sense. I think for me I really need to finally get comfortable with not having a label. I do think it would help short-term to call myself 'paleo' or whatever but long-term, I think I'll end up in this exact same spot down the line. My ultimate goal is to be able to listen to my body as far as what to eat, and I think for me, having a label kind of frustrates that process some.IDK. I think I'll get there, eventually, but these are some tough growing pains...


----------

