# do some kids just need to cry (OR) let's talk naps



## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

So let;s talk naps shall we?
My dd is 22mos old and the nap thing has def. changed. She used to be so reliable about going down at around 1-2 in the afternoon everyday no question but now she pretty much has stopped napping and I cannot accept this!(I mean I will if I have to but I don't wanna<whine>)
So anyway, my mom says that when she has her if she isn't settling into her nap by the afternoon my mom will just hold her and tell her its time to take a nap and she said she will cry a little bit but she just tries to soothe her and it akes about 15-20mins but dd does fall asleep.
So I have tried this twice and it has worked both times but dd got REALLY mad today when I was holding because I was holding her still and she wanted to get down and I wouldn't let her and she was crying really hard but then she took her baba and fell asleep after about 10mins.

I guess it just goes against everything I thought I was supposed to be doing to actually make my dd cry like that, but if she fell asleep then she needed the sleep, right? YEsterday she ended up sleeping for about an hour and half where as all last week and the week before NO NAP!

Please tell me about what you do for naptime, how you get your kids to go down, if you have always had a structured nap time and if you think what I am doing is abhorrent!


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, I might be in the minority here at MDC but I believe that 22 month olds need their sleep to grow and develop and learn and be happy, and if a few tears are shed along the way, that's OK. It doesn't sound as though you're leaving her to cry alone or refusing to soothe her for an extended period of time. If she's sleeping for a good bit and waking up well rested and happy, I think you're doing the right thing.

My .02







.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not leaving her, I'm actually holding her the whole time in order to actually get her to be still and that in turn is what makes her cry. She usually starts out ok, drinking her baba and letting me hold her for a minute or two, but then tries to get up and I don't let her and thats wehn the tears start and they really came today but after about 3-4 minutes of heavy crying she wanted her baba again and settled down slowly.

I really wonder if the crying expends that last little bit of energy that then helps her to relax and fall asleep, or is that just wishful justifying??


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

I think it sounds like you are meeting her needs. If she doesn't nap, she'll be unhappy and - I would guess - end up crying a whole lot more than she is before she falls asleep. And she's not crying alone, she has her mom by her side to help her get through the rough patch. Honestly, mama, I think you're handling it perfectly.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks Leeann, that is so nice to hear, I appreciate it!


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Ditto!

My DS does the same thing, and I'll hold him until he sleeps.

Sounds like your MIL is a wise, compassionate mama.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I think I read some where that around this age is when kids are learning soooo many new things, they really don't want to "waste time" napping. I can totally see that! When I've got a new book/catching up with an old friend/a great movie is on tv, who wants to sleep (even though I do need to!) I think a little encouragement at this age is the most helpful thing you can do. IMO, a child under 2 still needs to nap - for the health of her brain and body.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i did the same thing with mine. my kids hated naps because they were scared they were going to miss something even though they still need them. So sometimes they just needed help gettiong to sleep. and they had every right to be crabby about it but they were still going to take a nap.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Sorry, I will be the dissenting vote. I do not believe in physical restraining a child unless there is a really good reason to do. I know myself I completely panic if someone tries to physically restrain me. It is a completely horrible feeling! If I am picturing this right you are holding her completely still while she screams and freaks out? What website am I on again?


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## poiyt (Jul 6, 2008)

Ill disagree.

i dont think its ever appropriate to hold down a child until they fall asleep (unless there is something wrong with the child...like medically etc). Anytime I wonder if an action is appropriate I imagine doing it to an adult.

Would I hold my spouse down until he fell asleep? No
But what if he was really tired and I knew I would be preventing him from being really tired later...then would I hold him down? No.

I dont think its respectful to the child. And, all respect aside - what does it teach them? I dont need to pay attention to how tired I am, because if I get too tired mama will know, and she'll make me nap.

On a complete other note - at 22months, she may not need a nap every day. Some kids just require less sleep. if she is happy during the day when she doesnt nap and then gets over tired at 8p...put her to bed for the night at 730p...

Just my thoughts...


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
If I am picturing this right you are holding her completely still while she screams and freaks out? What website am I on again?

I don't think this comment is very helpful to the OP. She was asking for opinions and help, not judgement.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

The impression I got from the OP is that she's holding her _in her arms_ and not allowing her to get down and play or whatnot, _*not*_ forcefully holding her down or restraining her in a supine position.


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## newmommy7-08 (Feb 2, 2008)

I always have to take DS to my bedroom where it's quiet and dark to get him to calm down enough to nap. He can show all the signs of being tired but if i don't remove him from the sight of his toys, he will NOT nap.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
I don't think this comment is very helpful to the OP. She was asking for opinions and help, not judgement.

Yes, and that is my opinion. If support only is what is wanted then put it in the title, otherwise don't be surprised if people question restraining a young child while she (admittedly by the OP) cries and screams.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Yes, and that is my opinion. If support only is what is wanted then put it in the title, otherwise don't be surprised if people question restraining a young child while she (admittedly by the OP) cries and screams.

I wasn't questioning the fact that you disagreed rather how it was how it was said. Poiyt agreed with your stance as well but I thought her post was constructive and had some great points. Your post didn't seem to want to help rather just point out that she was wrong.


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## LeighB (Jan 17, 2008)

My dd is 22 months as well, and she basically done with naps. She fights and kicks the walls and tries to me laugh so I'll play with her, lol. I've decided to start a quiet time routine with her instead- we will nurse in the bed, then read quietly and then if she's not going to sleep I encourage her to play quietly on her own.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 

Please tell me about what you do for naptime, how you get your kids to go down, if you have always had a structured nap time and if you think what I am doing is abhorrent!

We have never done a set 'naptime' fwiw, so maybe my experience won't help much... but I can't see myself holding them to fall asleep - except if they were nursing, and it was mutually desired. My kids always napped when they were tired, and woke up when they were rested - so sleep has just never been a big issue in our home.

If she doesn't take a nap, what happens? Is the rest of the day completely miserable with constant melt-downs? I'm just trying to see why it would be so important for her to continue taking a nap that you are at this point.

All four of my kids stopped napping consistently around their 2nd birthday, so IMO, 22 months is at the age where she may just not need to rest like that on a daily basis.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
If she doesn't take a nap, what happens? Is the rest of the day completely miserable with constant melt-downs? .

in myt case yes, yes that is exactly what happened.

and i did not hold my dd down flat to the bed. i would lay down with her or rock her and tell her to be still. if she got out of bed i would tell her to get back in bed etc. but then I expect my children to obey me and there are many times when i tell them it is time to sit still or lay still and enforce it but consistantly bringing them back to where I want them.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

please keep both the forum guidelines in mind and the UA in mind when posting to this thread, particularly the following:

Quote:

Parenting is not a support-only forum, but posts are expected to be respectful at all times. The basic rule of internet discussions is "Debate the post, not the poster."

Quote:

When you assert something as either fact or your opinion, not everyone will agree. An opinion different from your own is not, in and of itself, a violation of the UA. Personal disagreements need to be taken to the private messaging system (PM) to keep discussion on track. Personal attacks and other User Agreement violations should be reported rather than addressed on a thread itself.

Quote:

Do not post or start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member.
and, finally, as stated very clearly in the UA, MDC does not wish to host threads about harsh sleep training methods. let's keep this discussion to alternatives please.

Quote:

We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, *harsh sleep training*, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 

If she doesn't take a nap, what happens? Is the rest of the day completely miserable with constant melt-downs? I'm just trying to see why it would be so important for her to continue taking a nap that you are at this point.

Yes, this is pretty much what happens. Her judgement goes out the window, she melts down over everything, acts very irrationally(she is normally very calm and sweet) and yawns but just doesn't go to sleep, she fights it big time. It sucks because she used to fall aslepp NO PROBlem....


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I really want to get across the idea that I am not holding down to a bed or anything crazy like that, I am just holding her in my arms when she is VISIBLY tired and when she tries to get down I just don't let her and she does get mad but very quickly falls asleep after that drinking her baba while I am holding her in my lap the whole time, soothing her and kissing her and rocking her.

I feel very torn about the crying, like I said, it goes against everything I have been doing her WHOLE life, but I can't argue with the results either.
I mean today, for example, she was visibly tired, being irrational about her lunch, wanting it one plate then another and pitching a fit when I finally just put the leftovers in the fridge.
I got her baba ready and her blankie and put her in my lap and she started to drink her milk and then wanted to get up again but I didn't let her, she cried for about 60 seconds and then settled back in and fell asleep within 5mins.....

Yes there is the possibilty that she doesn't need a nap everyday and if it seemed like it wasn't going to happen I would def. let her down and figure out what to do from there, but I can't imagine many days where it would be a good idea to let her stumble around exhausted until 7-8pm......

I really want to do the right thing here!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Sorry, I will be the dissenting vote. I do not believe in physical restraining a child unless there is a really good reason to do. I know myself I completely panic if someone tries to physically restrain me. It is a completely horrible feeling! If I am picturing this right you are holding her completely still while she screams and freaks out? What website am I on again?

It would be more helpful if you gave me any ideas about what to do instead? If you have better ideas I will try them!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Have you tried doing quiet time instead?

We've done it in a few different ways. We've done stories on the couch where I read books and we just cuddle for ~30 minutes. We've also done it where we lay down in my bed with the lights out/low and read some books and then "rest". We've also, on days where she needs to rest but just can't, put on a movie and she sits with a blanket on the couch and vegges.

Being quiet and still for 20 to 45 minutes was enough to get us through the afternoon. At first it meant she went to bed earlier, but as she adjusted to not napping and got used to it and went back to her normal bedtime.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I really want to get across the idea that I am not holding down to a bed or anything crazy like that, I am just holding her in my arms when she is VISIBLY tired and when she tries to get down I just don't let her and she does get mad but very quickly falls asleep after that drinking her baba while I am holding her in my lap the whole time, soothing her and kissing her and rocking her.

This is what we do at night sometimes. If DD is really tired she gets wired and has meltdowns every 10 minutes, but she just can't stop moving. If I hold her it makes her angry, but at the same time calms her down. She'll look at me screech and flail for a minute or two, then sigh and go back to the boob for a minute or two and then repeat. Usually after 10-15 minutes she stops crying and just boobs to sleep. I'd rather not do it, but it gets her to sleep when she can't herself there, I'm not leaving her alone and if I let her stay awake she'd be crying just as much and be tired to boot.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Yes there is the possibilty that she doesn't need a nap everyday and if it seemed like it wasn't going to happen I would def. let her down and figure out what to do from there, but I can't imagine many days where it would be a good idea to let her stumble around exhausted until 7-8pm......

I really want to do the right thing here!


She will adjust. Everyone I know went through 1 to 2 weeks of a tired cranky kid as their kid dropped their nap. It doesn't seem to matter if that happens at 2 or 5. Their bodies need to adjust. I've met more than 1 kindergarten kid who was dropping their nap and was a mess for a week or two.

I would say that you might do more harm than good in making sleep something you fight about with her. I know that we fought with DD for longer than we should have because everyone told us that she was "too young" to drop her nap. And it seriously affected how easily she went to sleep at night. Once we stopped fighting it took awhile for things to return to normal. But they did. Somedays she'd fall asleep on the couch and I'd mover her to her bed. Other days she'd just rest and would be fine. And there were days where she was miserable.


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## michellebelle (Mar 25, 2008)

I think you are doing fine, mama. My DS is just a couple of months younger than your DD and he DEFINITELY still needs his naps. I know all children are different, but if she's having meltdowns and is exhausted until her normal bedtime then she's clearly not ready to drop her afternoon nap.

You aren't leaving her to cry, you aren't holding her down on her bed, you are cuddling her and loving her and encouraging her to fall asleep. I don't know what else you could do?


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Well I just wanted to say that some kids who get on sensory overload need some decompression. Sometimes being held, while the kid might emotionally get irritated and want to be let go, their bodies might need some help in that department. That pressure to decompress and calm down enough to let their body stop long enough to sleep. What about trying to snuggle with her under a heavy blanket reading some books if you have a hard time with the crying, otherwise, if the naps are continuing and the time it is taking her to fall asleep is decreasing, sounds like you are on the right track. We hold infants tightly and rock and bounce them, even if they are screaming and crying, why not older babies. 22 months is still a baby in many ways.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

gees, a minute or two of protest is hardly crying it out and five minutes of holding them is hardly tieing them down. clearly she needs the sleep (or she would not be sleeping)...not every child knows how to wind down on their own.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Another thought I had...hyave you considered moving her nap time up some? it sounds like she is getting over tired.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
gees, a minute or two of protest is hardly crying it out and five minutes of holding them is hardly tieing them down. *clearly she needs the sleep (or she would not be sleeping)...not every child knows how to wind down on their own.*


That's the exact same argument I've heard from every person I know who does CIO.

Why don't we give kids a bit more credit and figure out that in general they will sleep when tired without being forced to.

Many people have good success with creating a quiet sleepy environment and then doing a quiet time in which their child rests or eventually falls asleep.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 

I feel very torn about the crying, like I said, it goes against everything I have been doing her WHOLE life, but I can't argue with the results either.
*I mean today, for example, she was visibly tired, being irrational about her lunch, wanting it one plate then another and pitching a fit when I finally just put the leftovers in the fridge.*



I just wanted to mention that that behavior is very typical for a two-year-old, tired or not. My 2.5 yo, who can sleep 12+ hrs at night, and still acts this way at times when I am certain it's not due to lack of sleep. I don't ever have to make him go to sleep, though, he tells me when he's tired and will often just go up to bed and lay down. But again, we don't have set bedtimes or naptimes b/c it's what works for our family.

I also agree with JL83 that at some point the transition from napping to not napping is going to happen, and it likely won't be without melt-downs. Whether or not your LO really needs that daily afternoon nap is hard to say, of course, but as for it now being a struggle when she used to go down without any issues - that makes me think she at least _wants_ to give up napping some days.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
That's the exact same argument I've heard from every person I know who does CIO.

Why don't we give kids a bit more credit and figure out that in general they will sleep when tired without being forced to.

Many people have good success with creating a quiet sleepy environment and then doing a quiet time in which their child rests or eventually falls asleep.

I should have mentioned before that I have done a quiet time routine which just ended in her getting up, running out of the room, laughing, going downstairs etc. THis was not my first choice at all!

And to the pp who said she may actually need an earlier nap, that is a good idea and I will try that, too.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I just wanted to mention that that behavior is very typical for a two-year-old, tired or not. My 2.5 yo, who can sleep 12+ hrs at night, and still acts this way at times when I am certain it's not due to lack of sleep. I don't ever have to make him go to sleep, though, he tells me when he's tired and will often just go up to bed and lay down. But again, we don't have set bedtimes or naptimes b/c it's what works for our family.

I also agree with JL83 that at some point the transition from napping to not napping is going to happen, and it likely won't be without melt-downs. Whether or not your LO really needs that daily afternoon nap is hard to say, of course, but as for it now being a struggle when she used to go down without any issues - that makes me think she at least _wants_ to give up napping some days.

I guess it's just something that I know as her mom, that it is about tiredness and not being able to think clearly, versus just wanting to play around etc.

So what would say about the fact that she has then been sleeping for about 1 1/2 hours each time I have done this? And I don't think it's because the crying exhausts her because it's so short, she cries longer than that SEVERAL times a day about other things.....
I'm not trying to be snippy at all, just trying to sort this out in my head.

Thanks for all the input so far from everyone!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I guess it's just something that I know as her mom, that it is about tiredness and not being able to think clearly, versus just wanting to play around etc.

So what would say about the fact that she has then been sleeping for about 1 1/2 hours each time I have done this? And I don't think it's because the crying exhausts her because it's so short, she cries longer than that SEVERAL times a day about other things.....
I'm not trying to be snippy at all, just trying to sort this out in my head.

Thanks for all the input so far from everyone!

Maybe it means she does still need that nap? or sometimes does. It's hard to say, obviously, when it's not your kid - and even when it is!

Really, I wouldn't worry what anyone else thinks. If it's working for your family, then that's all that matters.

Maybe in a few months you will hold her and she won't fall asleep? Then you will likely follow her lead and let her stay up. I would just do whatever you feel is right - which may change often


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Just wanted to chime in and say it sounds to me like you're doing the right thing for your LO. Some children go through stages where they do need more help to go to sleep, and it sounds like your DD is going through one of those stages. I'd be willing to bet that you won't even have to do this much longer as she learns to recognize being tired and becomes more willing to go to sleep on her own. I agree that moving her nap up to an earlier time might help, too - she definitely sounds like she's OVERtired by the time you put her down for her nap.

You know your daughter's needs best!


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## FullMetalMom (Aug 27, 2008)

I personally do not think it's ok to restrain a child against their will for 10-20 to make them sleep. It seems very cruel. I do not see it as "helping" your child to go to sleep, so much as forcing them to. I do see this as CIO, JMO. I guess I see it as the same as forcing a child to eat, rather than trying to find respectful ways to encourage them to eat. Perhaps a new routine is in order, my dd went through a roughh napping patch at the same age, I adjusted her routine, now we brush her teeth, I read to her while rocking her and she goes to sleep while I read to her. Sometimes I have to adjust the timing or read a little longer than usual, and sometimes she goes out really fast.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
That's the exact same argument I've heard from every person I know who does CIO.

Why don't we give kids a bit more credit and figure out that in general they will sleep when tired without being forced to.

Many people have good success with creating a quiet sleepy environment and then doing a quiet time in which their child rests or eventually falls asleep.


I had a child who really had trouble sleeping. she spent the first 18 months of her life sick and underweight and pretty much screaming her head off because I believed that kids would sleep when they were tired. Once I pushed the issue a little (and yes she cried a bit but she was going to be crying either way, I did not do CIO though) she started sleeping about 12-15 hours a day (she was 18 months and had never slept more than 6 hours in a 24 hour period) she double her weight in a few weeks, grew several inches, and became the happiest child on the planet. She also started speaking which she hadn't done since she took her first step. Not all kids can figure out how to wind down and get to sleep. really they can't. Not all of my children needed this kind of help but Lily did. and she is 9 now and I still feel terrible for how long I let her suffer for my ideals and philosophies. When all she needed was a little help.

again we are not talking about strapping a kid down and letting them scream themselves to sleep. we are talking about part of an overall routien that lasts a few minutes as we hold and love on our babies and sooth them to sleep.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Another vote for thinking that sometimes you really do HAVE to stop them from moving. My DS will reach a point of tiredness where he simply refuses to stop moving - because he knows if he stops, he WILL fall asleep. And he doesn't want to fall asleep, so he just keeps moving. DH and I can spot it too - he gets this super-tired look on his face, gets super winey and will run from you and just generally refuse to stop moving. At one point, I did generally have to hold him and rock him and listen to him cry for a few minutes just to get him calmed down enough that he could/would fall asleep. Now he will generally lay down and rest and fall asleep while we read stories. But he didn't used to, he used to need help.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Young kids need their sleep or they can't learn (just like a momma without a full nights rest at work, count her absent thank you). That poor baby needs sleep and you, as a good mama knows it. My kids fought sleep every second since they were born. BUT, if they were tired, a slow rocking and a kind song put them down.

Little babies need sleep and the funny thing about these ornary creatures is that they will say they don't! Well, as a smart woman with wisdom you know they need it. So hold them and sing and watth those eyes sling closed.

What I know? You are a good mama that knows their baby needs sleep. Keep on!

BABIES NEED A NAP! And I thank you to the mama's that work that extra shift workig towards it. You rock!!!!


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

You've already been given tons of really sound advice, from both sides.

My ds2 is going to be 2 on November 1st. (noooo! Not yet! It's too soon!







) In my experience, age 2-2.5 is around the age when all of mine dropped their naps. Most days I can get ds2 to nap if we're in the car or I pop him in the Ergo while I do dishes or something.

I can also get him to sleep if the big kids are otherwise occupied (I homeschool), but it's a little later in the day than I like for him. If he naps at 12 or 1, then he's up by 3 and will go to bed around 10. Otherwise, he's up till 11:30 or 12! Ack!

Anyway, follow her lead, pop her on your back and do some dishes, whatever it takes. You're not leaving her to scream her brains out by herself in the crib. She's ok.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
BABIES NEED A NAP! And I thank you to the mama's that work that extra shift workig towards it. You rock!!!!


The thing is that we aren't talking about a baby!!! We're talking about a toddler who's making the shift into being a kid. If it was a baby, then I'd agree with you. But 22mo is NOT a baby!


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

My kid was a terrible sleeper. The only way to get him to nap for a good year and a half was to put him in the stroller and walk (or carseat and drive, but I was usually too tired to be safe to drive). I honestly believe part of the reason it worked was that he could not keep moving to keep himself awake.

And we went through a week or two where he cried while I pushed. He'd start crying at just about the point in our walk where he usually fell asleep, then about 10 minutes later he'd be asleep. The first day I wasn't sure what to do, but figured I'd give it a few minutes to see if he'd calm down and go to sleep--I was a good 15 minutes from the house anyway. After that week he stopped with the crying. And he continued to nap for over a year, eventually learning to go to sleep in his bed. So he was not dropping his nap at all.

Not all kids are good at self-regulation. And sleep is really important.

Catherine


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My DD used to fall asleep in our backpack carrier when she was too busy to settle down. We've also done 'sleepy rides' in the car. She did drop her nap at 26 months. Before then her nap slowly got later and later, and we did have a cranky, difficult to get to sleep child during the transition.

My DD seems to need movement to go to sleep. She used to wrestle with her blanket while nursing to sleep as a small toddler. Now at almost 4 she rolls around under the covers for 5 to 20 minutes while I lay still and boring. A couple of months ago she'd just lie still and nurse to sleep. Now that she doesn't want much milk she has to wrestle her pillow and quilt. The point is that their needs change, and with some people movement actually helps them go to sleep.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
The thing is that we aren't talking about a baby!!! We're talking about a toddler who's making the shift into being a kid. If it was a baby, then I'd agree with you. But 22mo is NOT a baby!

It might be in the perspective then because I fully believe a 22 month old is still a baby.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds like she's saying she doesn't want to sleep then. I would try a few things:

I would try pushing the nap earlier to see if she's overtired.

I would then try pushing the nap back a bit to see if she's just not ready quiet yet.

And then, I would try giving up the nap but putting the bedtime earlier to make up for it.

My dd gave up her nap around that time, and went to bed earlier, and was happier with that schedule. All kids are different, though. I will say that I wouldn't personally be comfortable forcing a child to sleep who appeared to be communicating a desire not to sleep.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
It might be in the perspective then because I fully believe a 22 month old is still a baby.

me too. when my first was 22 months old she seemed practically like an adult. Now my youngest still seems like a tiny little thing just now becoming a big kid at 6.

under two is still very very much a baby.


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## daytripper75 (Jul 29, 2003)

My ds would cry for a few minutes every single time I laid him down, no matter what. I think he needed the release to relax and sleep. He rarely cried otherwise.


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## SaraC (Jan 11, 2002)

My 2.5 yr old still NEEDS a nap daily. She would not function without one. While I don't have to hold her to get her to go to sleep if that is what it took I would.

My 6m old needs me to hold her sometimes to sleep. I will keep her hands down or she will pinch, pull, and scratch at me, my breast, or her face/hair when she can seem to figure out what to do to get to sleep. Sometimes I need to nurse/hold her like that while soothing her and other times I can just lay her down and she is out.

Every kid is different and if you need to tweek things in order to make them work then do so.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

my nearly 4 yo still naps every day at 3 p.m. (almost time to get started now actually...) sometimes he likes to say he doesn't need a nap but after a story and me lying down with him for a minute, he's out in no time. ds2 however? he doesn't nap very much but he'll come to me when he's tired. i have a feeling he'll be one of those kids to give up naps early but i sure hope not. if he does, you better bet i'm still going to ask him to take quiet time and play in his room.
OP, you are doing what you need to do as a mama. it's not like you're strapping your LO down and leaving her to cry in bed alone in a dark room. if she's going to be cranky without a nap, it makes total sense that you would want her to nap then. and it's nice as a mama to have time alone while she's sleeping too.







she's nearly 2 yo; i'm sure she can handle crying a little in mama's arms. sometimes kids think they need something different than they actually do but we know what they're like if they don't get those naps. heck, i know what i'm like if I don't get enough sleep!
it's going WAY too far to try to make it sound like a mama rocking a fussing child to sleep is doing something wrong.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Keep doing what you're doing. It's not crying it out. You want your child to grow and learn. It's awfully hard to do when you don't get enough sleep. I have a 21 month old and he still needs a nap most assuredly.

I just have to say, he falls he asleep much easier when it's earlier like 10 or 11 then later in the day.

And this is coming from someone whose older two children dropped their naps on and off starting around 2.5. 22 months is not 2 and a half.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

I read somewhere that a lot of toddlers stop napping at 18 months...sometimes I think naps are more for parents than children in some peoples cases. All 4 of my older kids (I have 5 the youngest is 7 months)stopped napping by 22mo. My 7 month old is not napping much except maybe 20 min here and there. If my kids take a nap then they do and thats fine with me, if they dont I dont force it or try to talk them into it. The only time I request that they sleep is at bed time and they usually just go right to sleep so its a win win situation







.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
It might be in the perspective then because I fully believe a 22 month old is still a baby.


I cannot imagine thinking about a 22mo as a baby. IMO "baby" ends around 15/16 months. That's when they start to change.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

YOU ,dear momma, are doing just fine.







Everyone is going to have different opinions so don't sweat it. Honestly, I do NOT always believe a child will sleep when it needs to. I mean, yes, eventually I guess they could collapse from exhaustion.. but I don't think that's too healthy. My babe will stay up playing until the wee hours of the morning if I let her, but I can tell she's exhausted.. She'll lay down in the middle of the floor and start to drift off then jerk her pap out so she'll wake up. They get miserable when it's like that. I DO hold her and try to get her to sleep.. I mean I obviously don't hold her down while she cries hysterically, but she whines some. I'm not rigid at all, but I TRY to get her to bed at a decent hour everynight. I'm sorry but EVERYONE needs a decent night's rest. Period..


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Aletha Solter has a couple of books about this subject: The Aware Baby and Tears and Tantrums. She recommends allowing children to cry as a way to relieve stress, although she is very clear that you should NEVER LET A CHILD CRY ALONE and always hold your child in a comfortable and safe place where the child can feel safe letting out strong emotions.

Personally, I agree. It's been wonderful for DS to help him relieve his strong emotions; he gets much more restful sleep afterward, or if he's not ready for sleep, he ends up much calmer and clear-headed. I think what you're doing is fine.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Another vote for thinking that sometimes you really do HAVE to stop them from moving. My DS will reach a point of tiredness where he simply refuses to stop moving - because he knows if he stops, he WILL fall asleep. And he doesn't want to fall asleep, so he just keeps moving. DH and I can spot it too - he gets this super-tired look on his face, gets super winey and will run from you and just generally refuse to stop moving. At one point, I did generally have to hold him and rock him and listen to him cry for a few minutes just to get him calmed down enough that he could/would fall asleep. Now he will generally lay down and rest and fall asleep while we read stories. But he didn't used to, he used to need help.

I totally agree here. I care for a 28 month old who is having trouble with his naps since his mom stopped BFing him recently (partially due to the movement issues) and he moves a lot while he settles down. I lay with him on the bed for 20 minutes today and he would not stop moving. I could see that his eyes were trying to close to sleep but he kept moving his mouth, touching his bears, adjusting the covers, etc. etc. I did gently put his hands away from his face and under the covers a few times but the fact that he kept moving meant that he never fell asleep.

So while he rested for about 30 minutes properly, the rest of his "nap" he spent singing and talking and moving around, and I knew that by around 5 pm he would be a wreck.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I agree 100% with what pioyt had to say....if I wouldn't do it to my DH or want someone to do it to me...I don't do it.

We have never ever had a routine sleep time/nap schedule or anything like that...people in our house sleep when they are tired, wake up when they are ready to to play or work again and eat when they're hungry, etc...we just don't fight about sleep around here...but maybe DD is just "one of those kids" who sleeps well...I don't know, we have never had a problem.

I believe that the body knows when it needs to shut down and recharge, just like it knows when it needs to refuel...there have been times when DD has been so tired she could hardly walk straight...but if I tried to suggest sleep to her she wasn't game and became upset...so, generally, she tells me when she needs to go to sleep and THOSE times when I bring her to the big bed to lay down she sighs and giggles and wiggles her feet....so, I don't know. I would rather promote a relationship with sleep that has her giggling and toe wiggling than wailling....I know a lady with a son who won't even go into his room to play because he won't go near his crib, if he even SEES his crib he starts freaking out, I'm guessing because he thinks he is about to be forced to go to sleep and he knows that it will mean crying and struggling, etc...that's terrible. I would hate to have a kid who associated his place of rest and dreaming with fear, crying and upset.

Sistees, someone above said it best "You know your childs needs the best" - so...do what your gut is telling you to do I guess...I agree with a PP who said that sometimes kids in that age range are too "thirsty for life" to want to go to sleep when they're tired...I remember when I was a kid being like that with the bathroom...my body was clearly telling me I needed to go to the bathroom but I didn't want to go inside because I was having too much fun playing...so, a couple of times that ended up being a not-so-great decision, if you know what I mean!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
I totally agree here. I care for a 28 month old who is having trouble with his naps since his mom stopped BFing him recently (partially due to the movement issues) and he moves a lot while he settles down. I lay with him on the bed for 20 minutes today and he would not stop moving. I could see that his eyes were trying to close to sleep but he kept moving his mouth, touching his bears, adjusting the covers, etc. etc. I did gently put his hands away from his face and under the covers a few times but the fact that he kept moving meant that he never fell asleep.

So while he rested for about 30 minutes properly, the rest of his "nap" he spent singing and talking and moving around, and I knew that by around 5 pm he would be a wreck.


And most kids are a wreck by 5pm when they drop their naps regardless of the age they do it at.

That's what's so irritating about this thread. A 2yo will be a wreck for a couple weeks as their bodies adjust, and so will a 5yo. That doesn't mean we should continue to hold down a 5yo so they nap.

To those of you who agree with physically restraining a child (not a baby) to make them nap, what age would you do this to? Would you keep doing it to a 3yo? 4yo? 5yo? I know a 6yo who still naps a few times a week. His mom has NEVER had to restrain him. I know plenty of 18mo who are dropping their naps or who have dropped them completely.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

honestly if some of us fought sleep like toddlers did and got plain crazy, violent, mean etc from depriving ourselves of sleep (intentionally or because we were too far gone to know we needed it for our mental and physical well being) someone likely would hold us down and force us to sleep against our will. They may lock us up and restrainin us and force drugs into us until we were sane again. An over tired child gets manic and needs intervention. They have not learned to self regulate (and I do not believe the ability to self regulate is an inborn skill in everyone. My oldest had to be taught to self regulate her feeding and my second could not self regulate sleep)


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I agree 100% with what pioyt had to say....if I wouldn't do it to my DH or want someone to do it to me...I don't do it.

We have never ever had a routine sleep time/nap schedule or anything like that...people in our house sleep when they are tired, wake up when they are ready to to play or work again and eat when they're hungry, etc...we just don't fight about sleep around here...*but maybe DD is just "one of those kids" who sleeps well...I don't know, we have never had a problem.*
I believe that the body knows when it needs to shut down and recharge, just like it knows when it needs to refuel...there have been times when DD has been so tired she could hardly walk straight...but if I tried to suggest sleep to her she wasn't game and became upset...so, generally, she tells me when she needs to go to sleep and THOSE times when I bring her to the big bed to lay down she sighs and giggles and wiggles her feet....so, I don't know. I would rather promote a relationship with sleep that has her giggling and toe wiggling than wailling....I know a lady with a son who won't even go into his room to play because he won't go near his crib, if he even SEES his crib he starts freaking out, I'm guessing because he thinks he is about to be forced to go to sleep and he knows that it will mean crying and struggling, etc...that's terrible. I would hate to have a kid who associated his place of rest and dreaming with fear, crying and upset.

Sistees, someone above said it best "You know your childs needs the best" - so...do what your gut is telling you to do I guess...I agree with a PP who said that sometimes kids in that age range are too "thirsty for life" to want to go to sleep when they're tired...I remember when I was a kid being like that with the bathroom...my body was clearly telling me I needed to go to the bathroom but I didn't want to go inside because I was having too much fun playing...so, a couple of times that ended up being a not-so-great decision, if you know what I mean!









I think this is why there are such opposite opinions in this thread - everyone is approaching this from the perspective of their own experiences with their own children. Before I had my second son, I would've been horrified at the thought of physically restraining a young child to force them to sleep! I completely understand where the OP is coming from, though. I've had to do the same thing with my youngest, now 26 months. This child, bless his heart, has gone through stages where he will refuse to sleep and gets so overtired that not only is he unable to walk straight, but he is literally stumbling around crying, hitting, throwing things, and thrashing around on the floor banging his head. All because he is so overtired. IMO the kindest thing to do was to hold him for 5-10 minutes until he gave in and fell asleep in my arms, rather than let the tantrums continue for 45 minutes or more. Trust me, there are kids who sometimes just will not settle down without that extra help.

Btw, most of the time he has a great attitude towards sleep. Right now he's happily napping next to me, and 98% of the time he goes to sleep by himself at night, no problem. Developmental leaps seem to trigger the issues. My 4yo has pretty much always been able to self-regulate in this regard and has never had a single problem with sleep.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

My dd is almost 4yo and still really needs a nap on most days (and I definitely think that 22 months is very much still a baby!) That said, I couldn't hold her in bed and let her thrash and cry until she fell asleep. What we do, whenever I sense that she's getting worn out, is she picks out one story to read/short video to watch (like a 2 minutes youtube type thing- lately the trailer for the Wild Things movie), then she gets in the ergo on my front, has a bite of snack, I turn out the lights and sway while I read on the computer (it's on the bar in my kitchen, so I'm standing up)-- after about 5 mintues I can transfer her to he rbed, where she'll sleep for 2 hours. I am VERY grateful that we've found something that still works, as she absolutely will not lay down in bad for a nap anymore, and won't even fall asleep in the car unless she's REALLY tired. I guess if I was in the situation of the OP, I'd probably keep trying to find different ways to help her happily move into a position where she's likely to fall asleep (by the way- I can NEVER say "it's time for a nap" or my dd will fight it tooth and nail) We also don't enforce any sort of bedtime, etc. at our house- so we're a bit more laid back about sleep than many people I know, but I also just really feel like that rest is so important for her- especially since she likes to stay up later in the evening to spend time with daddy and is a WRECK without it (I wouldn't want her to drop nap and go to bed at 6pm and never see her father- even if that's what she would eventually adjust to doing) I do agree that the crying described here is less than ideal, especially if it's going on for more than a couple of minutes- but it sounds like you're doing your best. I owuldn't beat myself up about it, but I'd recognise that kids change fast, and the gentler method that didn't work last week might work now. Good luck!


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

I've been thinking about the "restraint" part of this thread. Is lovingly holding a thrashing baby/toddler in arms really any different from letting them thrash it out in a carrier? DS almost always starts thrashing around in the carrier just before he goes to sleep, but I don't take him down because it's part of his "process."


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I've been thinking about the "restraint" part of this thread. Is lovingly holding a thrashing baby/toddler in arms really any different from letting them thrash it out in a carrier? DS almost always starts thrashing around in the carrier just before he goes to sleep, but I don't take him down because it's part of his "process."


I don't think there's anything wrong with hanging on to the baby (in arms or carrier) while they get to sleep.

Like you said, for some, it's their process. It's not tossing them in a crib, alone, for half an hour while you ignore it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dantesmama* 
*I think this is why there are such opposite opinions in this thread - everyone is approaching this from the perspective of their own experiences with their own children.* Before I had my second son, I would've been horrified at the thought of physically restraining a young child to force them to sleep! I completely understand where the OP is coming from, though. I've had to do the same thing with my youngest, now 26 months. This child, bless his heart, has gone through stages where he will refuse to sleep and gets so overtired that not only is he unable to walk straight, but he is literally stumbling around crying, hitting, throwing things, and thrashing around on the floor banging his head. All because he is so overtired. IMO the kindest thing to do was to hold him for 5-10 minutes until he gave in and fell asleep in my arms, rather than let the tantrums continue for 45 minutes or more. Trust me, there are kids who sometimes just will not settle down without that extra help.

Btw, most of the time he has a great attitude towards sleep. Right now he's happily napping next to me, and 98% of the time he goes to sleep by himself at night, no problem. Developmental leaps seem to trigger the issues. My 4yo has pretty much always been able to self-regulate in this regard and has never had a single problem with sleep.

I have a 3.5 year old with major sleep issues. She has very rarely, if ever, slept through the night and gave up her naps before she was 2. I would dare anyone to show me a kid who is worse with sleep than this one, but despite that I would never physically restrain her to get her to sleep. I'm sorry but my respect for my child's bodily integrity does not end just because I want them to do something. There are other ways to help them relax and rest than doing that.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

we are not neccessarily talking about what we want for our children but what our children desperately need. if hold my child in my arms is what it takes for her to get the sleep she needs to be mentally, emotionally and physically healthy it seems cruel to me not to help her get to sleep that way.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
we are not neccessarily talking about what we want for our children but what our children desperately need. if hold my child in my arms is what it takes for her to get the sleep she needs to be mentally, emotionally and physically healthy it seems cruel to me not to help her get to sleep that way.


How is that any different from the argument that most CIO advocates use?

They would say that using CIO helps everyone in their house get more and better sleep and be healthier.

They would say that they know better than their child about how much sleep and when, so it's up to them to make the child sleep correctly.

I thought that MDC advocated for a more gentle approach that respects what a child needs and advocated for finding solutions that work with the child rather than against her.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

But it *IS* a gentler aproach than CIO. We're holding our children and helping them to go to sleep but we're also not leaving them to cry by themselves.

Does your child ever cry in the car? Thats certainly no different than this - they are physically restrained, and yet I don't know of anyone on MDC who advocates taking a child out of a carseat and letting them play in the car just to avoid having them scream and cry. Plenty of folks on here have in fact implied that I was a bad mother because I chose to FF my DS1 at 14-15 months in the hope that he'd stop screaming bloody murder throughout any and every car ride irregardless of what we did or how long it was - 5 minutes or 5 hours - untill he fell asleep from pure exhaustion. Out of desperation at 14+ months we FF him and the screaming stopped immediatly. He now likes car rides and generally only cries if he's wet/poopy. And yet some folks think we should have kept him RF simply because it was 'safer' despite the fact that he screamed bloody murder the whole time.

Its easy to say 'you should *never* physically restrain a child' but its not always possible. We physically restrain children (and adults) every time we get in a car, on a plane or put them in a baby carrier. And we don't always take them out the minute they start to cry - some babies fall asleep in carriers, some sleep in cars, some on planes. But not all. Whats the difference between physically restraining a child in a carseat vs a baby carrier vs in-arms? None.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not going to touch the debate because you're the mom on the ground, you have all the info, and I trust your instincts.

However here are a few things I didn't see on a quick scan:

- is she getting enough physical exercise EARLY in the morning? I found time outside running around or a swim made a huge difference at that age to naps. Exercise = nap.

- are mealtimes at about the same time every day? This helps regulate sleep.

- something that worked for us was to make a 'nap nest' in a different spot, all cosy with blankets and pillows... treat it like something special

Just some more ideas for you.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

There is a fundamental difference between a making a choice due to safety (carseats, carrying kids in the parking lot, keeping kids close at the mall) and one of parenting convenience.

An almost 2yo child napping is one of parental convenience just like training a baby to STTN using CIO, or requiring a child to sit in a stroller at the mall rather than coming up with an alternative that might be more work for the parent.

This isn't a question about total sleeping or about a kid who can never fall asleep. This is about keeping a nap going rather than dealing with a couple weeks of cranky to get past them. What's frustrating is that cranky seems to happy regardless of when the naps are dropped. So this poor kid is not only going to be cranky for awhile when she's finally allowed to drop her nap but she is also spending a bunch of time now being restrained and forced to take that nap. It's a double whammy.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I think there is a pretty big difference between a toddler who is ready to give up naps and gets grumpy in the evenings for a while until they adjust, and a child who fights sleep with every fiber of their being, does not recognize (or refuses to recognize) when they are tired, does not listen to their body, etc. If we can believe that people are all different with different likes, dislikes, temperaments, etc. why can some people not believe that some children do not _want_ to sleep and will fight it, even when they really, honestly do need it? Yes, toddlers can stop napping early, and have some grumpy time in the evenings. Thrashing around, not walking straight, flailing on the floor hardly qualifies as "grumpy" to me.

My own children gave up naps at 26 and 28 months, respectively. However, their evening crankiness was just that - crankiness. If I had kids that were literally falling down from exhaustion and unable to carry on a conversation or play with me because they were so overtired, I would not have a problem making them be still long enough to fall asleep, at least for a couple months and then try not napping again. As it stands, my kids have in the past and still do deny they are tired right up until falling asleep - they don't want to miss anything going on at all, and will try to stay up long past when their bodies need rest - their desire to be "in on the action" overrides any sense they might have of their bodies needing sleep. They have both always been on the low end of sleep needs anyway, and would try to get even less if I didn't "make" them be in their beds at bedtime every night.

Leaving a child alone to cry and give up that you're going to come to them is far different IMO than a mother holding a child, saying softly to them, "I know you don't want to sleep, your body needs sleep to be healthy; I'm sorry you're angry", etc. I understand that physical restraint is a really touchy subject on this board, but sometimes our children show us that we have to step outside of our comfort zones to provide them with what they need for their overall physical and emotional health and wellbeing.

And actually, to answer a PP's question: If I was irrationally fighting sleep that my body needed and became so overtired that I was falling over and crying hysterically, - yes, I would HOPE that someone would take me in their arms and help me fall asleep.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think there is a pretty big difference between a toddler who is ready to give up naps and gets grumpy in the evenings for a while until they adjust, and a child who fights sleep with every fiber of their being, does not recognize (or refuses to recognize) when they are tired, does not listen to their body, etc. If we can believe that people are all different with different likes, dislikes, temperaments, etc. why can some people not believe that some children do not _want_ to sleep and will fight it, even when they really, honestly do need it? Yes, toddlers can stop napping early, and have some grumpy time in the evenings. Thrashing around, not walking straight, flailing on the floor hardly qualifies as "grumpy" to me.

And I have a child who does not recognize that she is hungry. If food wasn't presented to her in a manner that works for her at appropriate intervals she would go 10 to 12 hours during the day without eating anything. And she has on occasion when we've forgotten or lost track of what she's eaten. And once she's overhungry she can turn into a total bear and will NOT eat!

Would anyone on MDC be supportive of me force feeding her? I could do it with my loving hands. It would be because I know she needs to eat. I would be super gentle. I'd even use an organic unbleached cotton blanket to restrain her with...

No! The answer would be a resounding no! On a mainstream parenting board I got many many suggestions to put her in a highchair and leave her there until she ate. I was told that I knew better and that she needed to learn to eat. I don't think MDC would have said "sit with her on your lap until she eats. It's OK!"... I would have gotten advice along the lines of what we do. I keep track of when she needs to eat and then she's involved. We do 'orange suns' and 'banana moons'. Lunch and supper are basically just additional entries in the long series of snacks that are offered making up a balanced diet.

Holding a kid to go to sleep is no different. Instead of encouraging the OP to do that, why not offer suggestions that are kinder and more AP. And one of those is that maybe her DD is ready to drop her nap.

I don't think that advocating for forced sleep in very AP.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Rest is SO essential for the growing child. Some children find it particularly difficult to nap, especially when they are easily overwhelmed by the sensory input around, or if they feel they MUST stay awake lest they miss something interesting. There is a good reason why nap times turn a bit difficult during the toddler phase. Some kids do need help in the form of movement (rocking), feeling cocooned (holding tight and close), soothing sounds (lullabys). Something that facilitates sleep. A mother usually has a good sense for what helps her child to nap. Comparing a child's nap and an adult's is a wrong comparison. We just have completely different responses to external stimuli in terms of self-regulation. There is this tendency amongst some to view crying and holding in completely black and white terms. But, I will exclude CIO, because that is just wrong. Done with a view to train and for the grown up's convenience. Here the difference is clear. Child needs to sleep, but is fighting it/finding it hard to unwind, mother senses it and responds. BTW, there is no way you can make an unwilling child nap. I guess some are finding it difficult to accept the difference between facilitating and forcing. Holding works for particularly squirmy kids who would really just roll around getting more worked up eventually. I think mothers of 'squirmy' kids will know what I mean.

A poster brought up force feeding for the child who refuses to eat even when hungry. Again, an invalid comparison. Fighting sleep and fighting food are situations that arise from different areas of the brain which deal with sensory perception to external stimuli. The same solution will therefore not work for what are disparate instances. Leave it to the mother who has a grasp of what is working for her child.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
A poster brought up force feeding for the child who refuses to eat even when hungry. Again, an invalid comparison. Fighting sleep and fighting food are situations that arise from different areas of the brain which deal with sensory perception to external stimuli. The same solution will therefore not work for what are disparate instances. Leave it to the mother who has a grasp of what is working for her child.


It is a very valid comparison.

My child fought eating because it meant stopping playing. She also refused to slow down long enough to realize she was hungry.

So we came up with respectful solutions to get her to eat rather than forcefeeding her.

No one is saying that children don't need rest. But rest /= sleep! Quiet time is a good alternative. Structuring your day so that you do something active and out of the house in the morning followed by a good packed lunch and coming home (carrier, stroller, carseat) during the post lunch 'haze' is a good one.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Your earlier post stated that going without food at specific intervals causes this reaction in your child. She would not do it if the schedule was undisturbed. This is not the case with children who require specific help in falling asleep for naps. That is the difference.

Quiet time is anything but for some kids! My sister's child can be out, fed and all the things you listed, but there was a phase when she could not nap or get the concept of quiet time, but it was obvious by bedtime how over wound she was. But, within 15 minutes of holding and rocking, she would segue in to her nap which lasted 2 hours. It was not a case of hold down, fall asleep, wake up after 20 minutes, hold, sleep and so on. Her need for nap went beyond quiet time. It is clearly a matter of mother responding to her child's specific needs. Nothing disrespectful about that. A broad assumption without knowing what is going on is disrespectful, however. It is not about what works for me, it's about how it works for someone else.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I agree with everything JL83 is saying and I am truly shocked at the number of people who agree with restraining a child to make them go to sleep. IMO that is going to set the child up for MAJOR sleep issues when they get older. I get that mom's don't want their child to give up their nap. I was very sad when my youngest gave up her nap because "I" wanted the nap, "I" needed the break. She was under 2 when she stopped napping. Yeah, it did result in some cranky afternoons but we switched her bedtime to 6:30pm and it made bedtime a breeze because she was very ready to go to sleep. We had quiet time in the afternoons and very rarely she would take a nap, but most of the time we'd just have some down time. Even now (she'll be 4 in January) she will sometimes fall asleep when we go pick up her brother and sister from school (20 minutes away) so obviously she sometimes needs extra sleep but an almost 2 year old child has the right to choose whether they nap or not IMO. Sure, mom can try and get the child to take a nap but when everything gentle has been tried taking the leap to, "I know, I'll restrain her until she falls asleep!" is just completely out of the realm of something I would ever feel comfortable doing. Again, I am shocked at this attitude on MDC.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

I doubt mothers that need the break would spend it helping over-tired kids calm down and sleep! Easier to just set up some quiet time. FWIW, when my brother was a toddler he had that struggling to nap phase. Today, he's out like a light withing minutes of going to bed.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

It bears pointing out that the words "restrain" and "restraining" were not used by the original poster, but by subsequent mamas with a dissenting point of view. In fact, the OP in her very first post describes her mother holding her daughter and doing her best to soothe her. The OP goes on to clarify that she is holding her tired child IN HER ARMS and ROCKING HER:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I really want to get across the idea that I am not holding down to a bed or anything crazy like that, I am just holding her in my arms when she is VISIBLY tired and when she tries to get down I just don't let her and she does get mad but very quickly falls asleep after that drinking her baba while I am holding her in my lap the whole time, soothing her and kissing her and rocking her.

Repeatedly using the words "restrain" and "restraint" changes the entire tenor of the thread and, IMO, really does nothing to help the original poster who clearly just wants to do right by her daughter. She has stated repeatedly that _her daughter suffers for not having slept_. It is perfectly within the realm of normal that a 22 month still needs daily naps. If the OP thinks her DD still needs a nap, then she likely does. We are not talking about an 8 year old, but a child that hasn't even reached her 2nd birthday. And there is an enormous difference between a parent who leaves a 22 month old to cry alone in her crib for an extended period of time and one who recognizes the needs of the child and holds them and soothes them as they relax into sleep. Children are different and have different needs. While some children can be left to their own devices and will seek out what they need on their own, others simply ignore the cues their bodies are sending them. Tears at naptime are not always synonymous with abuse of power or failure to meet the needs of the child. The OP is clearly trying to meet her DD's need for sleep. To do otherwise would be _anti_-AP IMO.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
It bears pointing out that the words "restrain" and "restraining" were not used by the original poster, but by subsequent mamas with a dissenting point of view. In fact, the OP in her very first post describes her mother holding her daughter and doing her best to soothe her. The OP goes on to clarify that she is holding her tired child IN HER ARMS and ROCKING HER:

Repeatedly using the words "restrain" and "restraint" changes the entire tenor of the thread and, IMO, really does nothing to help the original poster who clearly just wants to do right by her daughter. She has stated repeatedly that _her daughter suffers for not having slept_. It is perfectly within the realm of normal that a 22 month still needs daily naps. If the OP thinks her DD still needs a nap, then she likely does. We are not talking about an 8 year old, but a child that hasn't even reached her 2nd birthday. And there is an enormous difference between a parent who leaves a 22 month old to cry alone in her crib for an extended period of time and one who recognizes the needs of the child and holds them and soothes them as they relax into sleep. Children are different and have different needs. While some children can be left to their own devices and will seek out what they need on their own, others simply ignore the cues their bodies are sending them. Tears at naptime are not always synonymous with abuse of power or failure to meet the needs of the child. The OP is clearly trying to meet her DD's need for sleep. To do otherwise would be _anti_-AP IMO.

Very well said! I agree 100%. My DS went through this phase for naps AND bedtime. If we didn't hold him and rock hm in the rocking chair at bedtime (usually around 9-10 pm when he was 2ish) he would stay up into the wee hours of the morning and STILL wake up around 8 or 9 in the morning! Now at 3.5 years he falls asleep on his own (usually watching a favorite movie) and we have no problems (although he gave up naps a long time ago...he just doesn't need them).

You're doing a good job, mama!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
It bears pointing out that the words "restrain" and "restraining" were not used by the original poster, but by subsequent mamas with a dissenting point of view. In fact, the OP in her very first post describes her mother holding her daughter and doing her best to soothe her. The OP goes on to clarify that she is holding her tired child IN HER ARMS and ROCKING HER:

Actually, I think it bears pointing out that in the original post the OP says:

Quote:

So let;s talk naps shall we?
My dd is 22mos old and the nap thing has def. changed. She used to be so reliable about going down at around 1-2 in the afternoon everyday no question but *now she pretty much has stopped napping and I cannot accept this!*(I mean I will if I have to but I don't wanna<whine>)
So anyway, my mom says that when she has her if she isn't settling into her nap by the afternoon my mom will just hold her and tell her its time to take a nap and she said she will cry a little bit but she just tries to soothe her and it akes about *15-20mins but dd does fall asleep.*
So I have tried this twice and it has worked both times but dd got *REALLY mad today* when I was holding because I was holding her still and she wanted to get down and I wouldn't let her and *she was crying really hard but then she took her baba and fell asleep after about 10mins.*
The OP makes it clear that it's not about whether or not her DD needs a nap, it's that she wants her DD to keep taking one.

Then she says that her mom reports that her DD cries for 15 to 20 minutes before falling asleep. And she reports that her DD gets "REALLY" mad and after she settled down from that it took a further 10 minutes for her to fall asleep.

That doesn't sound like gentle holding and rocking to me. That sounds like a poor little girl who's really upset at being restrained (that's what I would call it when my child wants to get down and I don't let her).

Just because it's CIO in arms doesn't mean it's not CIO! That's a fallacy brought forward by people to justify what they do to their kids. Respect is respect.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

The terminology is interesting on this thread. The OP is holding and rocking, and comforting. Others are calling it physical restraint. Really does paint a different picture.

I wore my son until he was almost three. At 22 months, sometimes if he was tired and cranky I would strap him on my front, walk, soothe, sing, jiggle, and he would fall asleep.
So I was comforting him and helping him sleep, in an MDC-approved baby carrier









Or I was physically restraining him and forcing him to sleep, depending on who you asked.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
The terminology is interesting on this thread. The OP is holding and rocking, and comforting. Others are calling it physical restraint. Really does paint a different picture.

I wore my son until he was almost three. At 22 months, sometimes if he was tired and cranky I would strap him on my front, walk, soothe, sing, jiggle, and he would fall asleep.
So I was comforting him and helping him sleep, in an MDC-approved baby carrier









Or I was physically restraining him and forcing him to sleep, depending on who you asked.

It's the crying that makes the difference.

If you put him in the carrier and maybe he fussed but he mostly just settled down and went to sleep, that's entirely different from what the OP describes. She describes her DD crying very hard and fighting to get down and being very mad.

My own DD needed to be swaddled until she was ~11 months and then held tightly in a sling until she was close to 18 months. But there was no crying or fighting involved. Once there was, we stopped.


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## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Aletha Solter has a couple of books about this subject: The Aware Baby and Tears and Tantrums. She recommends allowing children to cry as a way to relieve stress, although she is very clear that you should NEVER LET A CHILD CRY ALONE and always hold your child in a comfortable and safe place where the child can feel safe letting out strong emotions.

Personally, I agree. It's been wonderful for DS to help him relieve his strong emotions; he gets much more restful sleep afterward, or if he's not ready for sleep, he ends up much calmer and clear-headed. I think what you're doing is fine.

Here is an interesting article from Althea Solter about crying in arms. http://www.awareparenting.com/comfort.htm

I found the article very helpful when I was a new mom with a colicky baby. I think it would be helpful reading for your situation as well.

To the OP, I don't think that there is anything wrong with what you are doing. Only you know your child and only you know what is best for her. What you are describing is not the same as letting her cry it out alone. It sounds like she needs help decompressing and winding down from the morning activity and you are helping her do this by holding her in your arms and helping her fall asleep.


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## sleepingbeauty (Sep 1, 2007)

When I stopped napping, my mother still made me lay down and have "quiet time" for an hour or so. That way I was resting at the very least.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO."

My DS has ALWAYS fought sleep. He doesn't go to sleep on his own.. never has. Very rarely does he go to sleep willingly. He will yawn, rub his eyes, ask for "ni-night" and STILL fights it. First I always try nursing him lying down, but this only works about 1/2 the time. Usually I have to hold him and rock/bounce him and he cries for a few minutes. It is the only way we've been able to get him to go to sleep. He has never ever cried alone.. but he is crying because he wants to play, not sleep, even though he is tired and needs sleep.








I think you are doing the best you can in this situation, and I hope for you this phase passes soon. I don't think it will for us, because as I've said, DS has done this his whole life (he is 13.5 mo) and I don't see an end in sight.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

It does end! With kids who fight sleep and desperately need it, they either grow to where they don't need a nap or understand their own needs and want to go to bed or lay down.

But kids with sleep issues are hard, hard, hard.

Luckily, there is an end in sight. Untill they get my age and get insomnia.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO." Obviously, these people don't have sleep fighting children/babies and have no idea what you are going through.

Many of the people replying on this tread who are against what the OP is doing have hard sleepers! And most of us have said so.

The fact remains that there are alternatives! That's the jot of MDC is that people care enough to come up with alternatives to the mainstream approaches of things like CIO.

I have a very good idea of what the OP is going through. But I think her first post is very telling where she explains that it's for _her_ that she wants her DD to keep napping. It's not until later that she backpedals and tries to say it's for her DD... And I think that supporting her choice to do CIO is against the point of MDC.

It sounds like she has 2 main choices. She can either structure her day so that her DD is actually tired at nap time. For many kids that's both vigorous activity AND mental stimulation. At that age, the only thing that got my DD to nap was daycare. They ran them outside for a full hour to 1.5 hours (which is what I did at home) and she had to interact with 11 other kids for 4.5 hours before nap time. Her other choice, if she's really interested in AP approaches, is to figure out a way to induce rest (not necessarily sleep) in a respectful manner.

I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Many of the people replying on this tread who are against what the OP is doing have hard sleepers! And most of us have said so.

The fact remains that there are alternatives! That's the jot of MDC is that people care enough to come up with alternatives to the mainstream approaches of things like CIO.

I have a very good idea of what the OP is going through. But I think her first post is very telling where she explains that it's for _her_ that she wants her DD to keep napping. It's not until later that she backpedals and tries to say it's for her DD... And I think that supporting her choice to do CIO is against the point of MDC.

It sounds like she has 2 main choices. She can either structure her day so that her DD is actually tired at nap time. For many kids that's both vigorous activity AND mental stimulation. At that age, the only thing that got my DD to nap was daycare. They ran them outside for a full hour to 1.5 hours (which is what I did at home) and she had to interact with 11 other kids for 4.5 hours before nap time. Her other choice, if she's really interested in AP approaches, is to figure out a way to induce rest (not necessarily sleep) in a respectful manner.

I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!

I guess her situation is a little different than mine in that her DD just started doing this and is probably trying to drop her nap. (*OP, could you skip nap and put her to bed earlier?)* Whereas my DS has ALWAYS fought sleep, and there was NO OTHER WAY to get him to sleep as a baby than holding and rocking him while he cried. Not because _*I*_ wanted him to have a nap.. but because he is tired and needed it (he does this for nighttime too) and we have tried sooooo many things and nothing has worked without some tears. Now, he does not cry every single time anymore, but he still fights sleep..


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO." *Obviously, these people don't have sleep fighting children/babies and have no idea what you are going through.*

Really? I'll just copy and paste my previous post.

"I have a 3.5 year old with major sleep issues. She has very rarely, if ever, slept through the night and gave up her naps before she was 2. I would dare anyone to show me a kid who is worse with sleep than this one, but despite that I would never physically restrain her to get her to sleep. I'm sorry but my respect for my child's bodily integrity does not end just because I want them to do something. There are other ways to help them relax and rest than doing that."


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Really? I'll just copy and paste my previous post.

"I have a 3.5 year old with major sleep issues. She has very rarely, if ever, slept through the night and gave up her naps before she was 2. I would dare anyone to show me a kid who is worse with sleep than this one, but despite that I would never physically restrain her to get her to sleep. I'm sorry but my respect for my child's bodily integrity does not end just because I want them to do something. There are other ways to help them relax and rest than doing that."

sorry i didn't see every single post. don't know how your dd slept at 13 months, but i have not heard of/met anyone who sleeps worse than my ds..









i guess there are just going to be disagreements on this subject, and every mom needs to do what they feel is right for their own child. my ds HAS TO have a nap everyday, and HAS TO sleep at night (even though he wakes frequently during both....) to function.. he is the type who will be running around falling everywhere can't talk can't see straight crying at everything but will still resist going to sleep. I have tried everything I know to do, warm bath, stories, pitch black dark, white noise, nursing, rocking, bouncing..... and he STILL resists sleep and does cry when we are trying to get him to sleep most of the time.....


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
There is a fundamental difference between a making a choice due to safety (carseats, carrying kids in the parking lot, keeping kids close at the mall) and one of parenting convenience.

y.

Actually I consider helping children get enough rest to be a saftey issue. My child was sick all the time, constantly injuring herself, underweight and developmentally delayed. When she finally started getting the rest she needed (but could not get without my help) she was rarely sick ever again, gained weight and caught up to her peers developmentally. and the difference was noticable within a week. I did not do this for convenience. This was for my childs well being 100%.

also i figured it is kinder to help them get to sleep while they fuss for 5-10 minutes than to let them scream exhausted for 5+ hours....


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
Actually I consider helping children get enough rest to be a saftey issue. My child was sick all the time, constantly injuring herself, underweight and developmentally delayed. When she finally started getting the rest she needed (but could not get without my help) she was rarely sick ever again, gained weight and caught up to her peers developmentally. and the difference was noticable within a week. I did not do this for convenience. This was for my childs well being 100%.

also i figured it is kinder to help them get to sleep while they fuss for 5-10 minutes than to let them scream exhausted for 5+ hours....











Sleep is essential for growth, development, health. I am always amazed that people (IRL and online) who would never feed their kids a diet of junk food don't recognize that children need A LOT more sleep than adults to be at their best. Making sure your children get enough sleep is a sign that you DO respect them and that you care enough about their needs to make a choice they might disagree with.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

My 3 year old still naps every day. Without it, he's the falling down, irrationally behaving crazy man described by PP. So, he naps.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to somewhat force the issue. I don't hold my ds down, but I do require that he stays on his bed for the entire nap time. For him, that's enough that he'll go to sleep. Obviously, he'd prefer to get off his bed, but that's not an option.

And, for those that just suggest an earlier bedtime....for some families that just doesn't work. We have a nap, because my dh doesn't get home until 6 or later every night, and he leaves at 6am. My 3 year old sleeps from 7:30 to 7:30 in the morning, with a 2-3 hour nap. If he skipped his nap, he'd end up in bed by 5 or 5:30, and he'd never see daddy.

For us, it's worth pushing the nap issue a bit, so that he gets to see his dad.


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## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

I wonder why people keep saying over and over that the OP is holding her child down when she explains here that she is holding her in her arms soothing, kissing and rocking her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I really want to get across the idea that I am not holding down to a bed or anything crazy like that, I am just holding her in my arms when she is VISIBLY tired and when she tries to get down I just don't let her and she does get mad but very quickly falls asleep after that drinking her baba while I am holding her in my lap the whole time, soothing her and kissing her and rocking her.

How is this CIO? From my understanding CIO is when a parent leaves a baby alone in their room to cry themselves to sleep without comfort. In no way is what the OP describing CIO.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I don't think it's my job to make sure my children are never unhappy or never have to do something they don't want to. I think you're doing fine. All kids are different, and while some may be ready to give up that nap at that age, others aren't. My 3.5 year old still seems to need a nap (although not every day).


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I really wonder if the crying expends that last little bit of energy that then helps her to relax and fall asleep, or is that just wishful justifying??

i find this is true for my dd, it's like she needs something to push against to get to sleep. she kicks covers off, she pushes her head into the pillow, etc. i think that me holding her just allows her to push against me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!

i thought AP parenting was about meeting your child's needs. if the child is falling asleep for 1-1/2 hours after this it sounds like she needs the sleep.

i'll be honest, i think you are taking an extreme view of CIO and i don't think that this qualifies.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I don't know about the other posters, but my DS1 didn't (for a time) just fight naps. He fought sleep in general. Whether he napped or not determined the level of fight he'd throw at bedtime - if he nappped (with help) he went to sleep at 8:30-9pm *MUCH* easier than if he didn't, in which case he would be positvely miserable and scream and run and cry becaue he was *SO* overtired and he KNEW if he stopped moving for a moment he WOULD fall asleep. So he just would NOT stop moving. He still does this to a degree, but its not nearly as awful as it was for about a month or two ~20-22 months. Should I have just let my DS be miserable and run around and be uber hyper untill he literally passed out?? Would that be preferable to some of you on here vs, simply stopping him, changin his diaper and then holding him till he stopped moving so that he WOULD fall asleep?? You would rather you, and your DC both be utterly miserable because he/she was SO over tired for 2 or 3 hours before they just passed out??


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

yeah, i'm not sure if we just have vastly different kids or what but it seems like there are very different approaches to this.

i personally can't see the benefit to having a craxy dd stumbling around like a zombie either.

and fwiw, my ds transitioned to no naps without a hitch so i don't buy the idea that it will take weeks of adjustment to the no nap routine. i knew he was ready because he could go the entire day without acting like he was tired or needed sleep.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I had to hold and rock my ds to sleep at night and for naps from 4 months on. And he'd cry because he knew if I was rocking him that it was sleep time. But I just kept rocking and soothing until he fell asleep. It never took very long...because he was always tired and ready for bed when I did it.


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## fruitlove (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I agree 100% with what pioyt had to say....if I wouldn't do it to my DH or want someone to do it to me...I don't do it.

We have never ever had a routine sleep time/nap schedule or anything like that...people in our house sleep when they are tired, wake up when they are ready to to play or work again and eat when they're hungry, etc...we just don't fight about sleep around here...but maybe DD is just "one of those kids" who sleeps well...I don't know, we have never had a problem.

I believe that the body knows when it needs to shut down and recharge, just like it knows when it needs to refuel...there have been times when DD has been so tired she could hardly walk straight...but if I tried to suggest sleep to her she wasn't game and became upset...so, generally, she tells me when she needs to go to sleep and THOSE times when I bring her to the big bed to lay down she sighs and giggles and wiggles her feet....so, I don't know. I would rather promote a relationship with sleep that has her giggling and toe wiggling than wailling....I know a lady with a son who won't even go into his room to play because he won't go near his crib, if he even SEES his crib he starts freaking out, I'm guessing because he thinks he is about to be forced to go to sleep and he knows that it will mean crying and struggling, etc...that's terrible. I would hate to have a kid who associated his place of rest and dreaming with fear, crying and upset.

Sistees, someone above said it best "You know your childs needs the best" - so...do what your gut is telling you to do I guess...I agree with a PP who said that sometimes kids in that age range are too "thirsty for life" to want to go to sleep when they're tired...I remember when I was a kid being like that with the bathroom...my body was clearly telling me I needed to go to the bathroom but I didn't want to go inside because I was having too much fun playing...so, a couple of times that ended up being a not-so-great decision, if you know what I mean!









Great post! Thank you!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Being attached to our children doesn't mean making our entire world revolve around preventing them from ever being frustrated. It's not even possible nor would it be healthy if it was. Holding a child snuggly in your arms and cuddling them while fuss before sleeping is no different than wearing them until they get to sleep. It's no different than swaddling. I found "crying in arms" reference (not in a negative way) on the API website and IMNSHO being an attached parent means that you "learn" YOUR child and help them get to where they need to be. It means not following a book or a set of rules to the T while neglecting the needs of YOUR child.

Take care and good luck.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

OP, I totally understand and think you are doing an awesome job. My oldest fought sleep, any sleep, from the time she was born. I mean, she NEVER wanted to sleep! I even went as far as taking "sleep issues" classes aimed at young infants and children. When she was over tired and finally passed out she would get up an have sleep terrors. She'd sit up and scream bloody murder while asleep and then get up and RUN through a dark house and hide, it wasn't safe. We had to start putting up gates in front of doors and such. We'd find her wedged behind the fridge or in closets, the oddest places. She was so over tired her body flipped out when she finally would fall asleep. I finally gave in and started rocking her and cuddling her as she cried. It broke my heart but it did help her fall asleep and assured she got ENOUGH sleep. She got lots of love and her last little burst of crying was the stimulation she needed to finally relax her body.

She is now 10 years old and has never outgrown her sleep issues. She is now old enough to recognize them herself and has requested help dealing with it. She knows she needs sleep and her body STILL, to this day, can't regulate sleep correctly. With the approval from her pediatrician she takes melatonin tablets at bedtime when she is having an extremely hard time. Her body just doesn't "wind down" like most and all the quiet time and schedules in the world have never helped her.

My sister's little girl is the same way. She is one years old and fights sleep. She takes one mini nap during the day (she fights all naps and that's the best that my sister has managed) and then at night she is so over tired that she simply can't fall asleep. I've seen my sister sit with her for nearly 2 hours doing quiet time trying to get her to sleep when she so obviously needed it. When my sister was so exhausted she was losing patience I stepped in to help. _With my sister's approval_ I *held* her and *cuddled* her (my niece) and she cried for literally 3 minutes and then fell into a deep sound sleep.

Each and every child is different and has different needs. My youngest was the sleeping queen. To this day she still puts herself to sleep and sleeps really well, she always has. My middle child was pretty typical and my oldest still has trouble sleeping. I've run the gambit when it comes to sleep issues. I find cuddling and holding a child while giving them kisses and talking sweetly to them is VERY different than CIO where you leave the room and offer no reassurances.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I guess I'm seeing this as kind of like bear hugging a kid in a raging tantrum so that they can't hurt themselves, others, or destroy anything. They're certainly not going to be happy about it, but that doesn't mean that it's not a valid way of dealing with it for *some* kids; some kids they need that physical boundary to help them gain physical and emotional control when they are out of control.

I don't think any of the mamas here are jumping up and down with glee at the thought of making their child upset, or preventing them from getting off their laps or out of their arms...but in some cases, it's the kindest thing to do - I just don't see what's respectful about letting a child who is obviously NOT picking up on their body's sleep cues get so overtired that they are unable to fall asleep or get enough sleep - that doesn't sound respectful or kind to me.

I don't envision this being done in a "mwahahahaaaa, you little creep, now I'm going to show you that you WILL sleep no matter what it is you want to do, becasue I'm the boss..." kind of tone, but something more like, "I know you want to keep playing (or whatever) - your body needs sleep to stay healthy and grow, and since you aren't able to hold still right now to fall asleep, I'm going to help you stay still for a few minutes until your body can rest." I just - I know that there are kids out there that just don't want to sleep, don't recognize their sleep cues, and don't want to miss out on one single minute of awake play time. I have two of them. I *have* in fact said those words to both of them..."if you'll just keep your body still for a couple minutes, I know that you'll fall asleep" - and fortunately, they've eventually listened and fallen asleep. But I can completley conceive of a kid who wouldn't and would keep getting up, etc. but who clearly still needed the sleep. Sleep is SO important, SO important. Reading "Sleepless in America" made me see just hwo important it is. And I would agree that you cannot *make* a child sleep - but if they fall asleep after being upset for a little bit and sleep like a rock for a couple hours, then they clearly still *need* the sleep, whether or not they *want* it.

I'm not doing backflips about restraining an upset, overtired child - if you can find a better, gentler way that still gets them the sleep they need, then great...but I'm also not going to condemn it and put it in the same league as abandoning a child in a dark room.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I'm not doing backflips about restraining an upset, overtired child - if you can find a better, gentler way that still gets them the sleep they need, then great...but I'm also not going to condemn it and put it in the same league as abandoning a child in a dark room.

Absolutely.

If a child isn't reading their body's cues, it's our job, as parents, to do it for them. My kids have been so utterly wiped out that they can't function. Going to bed (bigger kids) or sleep (littlest) is what is needed.

I've been known to pop ds2 in his carseat and drive him around till he fell asleep because he NEEDED it.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I can actually remember sitting around doing this or that and just sobbing and freaking out and my mom saying "time for bed. you are over tired" and screaming back "no I am not" looking back if she had wrestled me to the ground and held me down while I got the sleep I needed I would not have been dissapointed. I would have prefered that to her getting angry or frustrated at my exhausted craziness (not that I blame her for getting angry or frustrated either.)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

As long as we're using childhood anecdotes, my mom tied me into bed for this same reason - she said I was desperately tired and needed sleep but wouldn't sleep unless I was forced to stay put. I think holding a child down in bed is better than tying a child into bed, but really they're degrees of the same thing, IMO.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

OP---

have I missed what else you have tried? I know that some children, from birth, need to be swaddled to be able to calm down and go to sleep. But, to me, it seems like if this becomes as issue as a child approaches 2 perhaps they are trying to transition out of the nap. Have you tried more morning activities, an earlier wake up time or an earlier bedtime (and eliminate nap)?

I would be concerned that DD is actually learning that her screaming/crying is not being listened to. Just because a child falls asleep after screaming and thrashing around does not, IMO, mean that they needed a nap in the first place. They could just be hopeless and exhausted from trying to escape. I don't know which one your DD is (because I do know that both exist, DS, especially has been to a point where he wanted to nurse and sit up, nurse and sit up, nurse and sit up, but if I pulled him tight to me while he nursed so he wasn't waking himself up with his movements he would settle right down), of course.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

lets not over look that we are talking about five minutes of squirming and fussing. Not a hour of thrashing and wailing. its a small protest.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
As long as we're using childhood anecdotes, my mom tied me into bed for this same reason - she said I was desperately tired and needed sleep but wouldn't sleep unless I was forced to stay put. I think holding a child down in bed is better than tying a child into bed, but really they're degrees of the same thing, IMO.

i think that's pretty creepy.

how do you feel about holding and rocking a crying child?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
lets not over look that we are talking about five minutes of squirming and fussing. Not a hour of thrashing and wailing. its a small protest.

Actually, from the OP we're talking about more like 15 minutes of hard crying.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i think that's pretty creepy.

how do you feel about holding and rocking a crying child?

Fine, if the child is wanting to be held and rocked. I've done it lots. I haven't forced a child to sit on my lap when she didn't want to.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Not entering the debate about whether it's right or wrong but I wanted to give you my take friend








My kids start to give up their naps around that age. It's not always permanent, sometimes they skip days and then pass out for hours, sometimes they just end up sleeping late. Sometimes they cut naps for a while then go back to them. I've seen so much variance with naps, I tend to just go with their feelings. My 13mo nurses to sleep and when I know she's tired I will nurse her and not let her get down. She fusses and then latches back on and goes to sleep. I don't feel that I'm harming her, she's really not upset. I might be able to force my 2yo to take a nap by holding her and not letting her up but frankly that's just never crossed my mind. She doesn't nap anymore, she now goes to sleep about 1.5 hours before the rest of us and sleeps as late as we do. I'd say, you are there, you SEE her and can feel how upset she is and what effect it's having on her and your lives in general. You've got good instincts, go with your gut, mama.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)




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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm baaaaaaaaaack. Lol.

Anyway. I wrote a long response the other day but when I went to post it it got deleted some how. Anyway. It was REALLY long and I just didn't have the ooomph to write it again and so here I am.

I have appreciated everyone's responses and have thought a lot about what everyone has said.

This is not something I am taking lightly, for sure.

HEre are my thoughts and responses to questions others have asked.

I have tried other things, this has been the only thing that has gotten her to stop.relax(eventually).chill.sleep.
I do take her to lots of morning activities and t the park so I think she is getting enough stimulation in the morning.
I have now tried moving up her naptime to no success at all so that is a no-go.
My real concern is that as a mom I can't handle her when she gets overtired/starts acting frantic/manic is unable to be pleased and just obviously needs to go to sleep. It makes me feel stressed out and I become a worse mom. I am more prone to snap or just tune out and then the whole day becomes a wash where I am just waiting for DH to get home and not conntecting anymore with DD. It's a mess.
I strongly connect with the moms who are saying that its obvious when a baby needs a nap and to me this baby still needs her naps.

When I said in my OP that I didn't want to give them up the truth is that no, I personally don't want to give up the time where she rests.recharges.and wakes up refreshed. It is so much more peacefull than living in crazyland where she is acting like a possessed nutball.

I also connected to the pp who said that if a baby/kid didn't need a nap anymore wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be acting like they _don't?_

Thanks to everyone


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

I think you're doing a great job responding to your baby's needs. It's soooo sad as a mama to hear your baby cry, but it sounds like she's so much happier in the end if she gets the naps she needs (let's see....a few minutes of protest vs. several miserable hours at the end of the day). I really, really think you're doing the right thing.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Sure, I did it. My DS NEVER EVER EVER could read his sleep cues. He would still stay up until forever if we didn't make him stop and go to sleep. He still fights, there's just no crying involved. A crying child doesn't necessarily NOT need sleep, they are just fighting it tooth and nail. Mine just can't seem to get his body relaxed on his own.

He gave up his naps for good around 2 and change, so around that time, we were fighting it pretty hard. I turned on some soft music, put away every single toy from sight, rocked him in a dark room, and he would still whimper a little before he drifted off. I think it was around that time that I realized that he knew what "nap" meant, so I started calling it rest time or quiet time or something, and he didn't fight quite as hard. I also found this horribly boring book (he still calls it the night-night book) and read it in the most monotone voice I could possible muster. It gave him something to take his mind off of what we were doing, but he would usually fall asleep a few pages in.

Best of luck. Giving up naps was torture for us, but hallelujah, he goes to bed at 7 w/o a fight now.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I don't want to touch the CIO/not CIO debate with a 10 foot pole.

I will chime in to say that both of my kids started to resist sleep at this age and sleep became irregular. DS is in the middle of this phase right now.

Since we allow our kids to self regulate, I see it as my job to help my kids get to sleep when they are telling me it's time. For my DS this means rubbing his eyes, asking to be held and nurse, laying on the floor, getting whiny and cranky.

Since he is in a very distractable phase too (which is probably why he resists sleep in the first place) I will bring him into the quiet, boring bedroom and lay down with him. I can no longer read or play around on my iPhone while he nurses down, it's just to distracting. Sometimes he will nurse and close his eyes and then just when the soft snoring starts, pop up and want to wrestle. Then after a few minutes of playing he nurses and falls a sleep. There are other times when he just needs the quiet rest that comes from nursing and he's good for another hour or 2. Sometimes, particularly at night, DS needs to fuss a bit before settling down to nurse. He usually goes to sleep very quickly when this happens. Unless he has been sick, he has never cried during this process. Fuss yes, but not cried.

DS no longer gets tiered and naps at predictable times. I see this as a sign that he is starting the process of dropping a daily nap. Like every thing else, the process is not a simple linear one. He still obviously needs a nap some days, and others not so much. I do my best to respect this and help him get the rest he needs without forcing the issue because I need a break (and believe me, there are days I really do...usually the days that are a no go for naps, unfortunately.)


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

WRT the 'physical restraint' thing - we all physically restrain our children during the day, whether we think of it like that or not. We hold down a squirming baby to change a poopy nappy, we put a protesting child into a car seat, we hold a toddler's hand in the supermarket. We physically restrain them inside the house by using doors, windows, walls, locks, etc. We physically prevent them from playing with dangerous things using doors, locks, removing the items, etc. If our child was hurting themselves or another person we would all agree that it was our responsibility to physically prevent them from doing so.

The baby/child involved is often not best pleased with our physical restraint, but is usually better off in general - i.e. not sitting in a mass of faeces for hours on end, not dead or badly injured. Overall, healthier and happier for the 'physical restraint' despite being unimpressed and protesting vociferously at the time. I doubt there's a mama out there whose baby hasn't at some point thrown a wobbler because she's had to prevent him from doing something he wanted to do, or put him somewhere he didn't want to be.

Some children are indeed poor regulators of sleep. I was, and my DD is too. It is in fact harmful to her (and me) healthwise and safety-wise to allow her to disregard her need for sleep. Left to her own devices she would have slept for about 2 hours in 24 and screamed and cried the other 22. I know, because in my desperation to be a good parent I tried to 'follow her cues'. That's where it got us - with me so exhausted that I was really unfit to be caring for an infant and her incredibly over-wrought and over-tired, unable to function, and constantly screaming or crying. So I had to wonder: what was worse - allowing her to do this to herself, aka 'following her cues' or 'respecting her bodily integrity', or finding a more proactive way to help her to sleep when she very obviously did need to? The first meant that she literally would be screaming/crying just about non-stop for hours on end until she finally conked out of sheer exhaustion, then would wake up after 30 minutes to start all over again. The second meant that she cried in my arms, while I rocked, shushed, sang to her, gently explained to her that she needed to settle down and go to sleep, and stilled her constantly moving body. In this scenario she rarely cried for more than 10 minutes and would usually sleep for a couple of hours before waking, would wake reasonably happy and alert and play quite happily, interact normally and generally do normal baby things for an hour or two until she started to get tired again. (I'm talking now about when she was still an infant)

Kids will protest against physical restraint. They should - it's good that they test boundaries and figure things out, but we shouldn't put all the responsibility for their well-being onto them. If you could only change a baby's nappy when they happily permitted you to, well then you'd have a serious problem on your hands. An adult would recognise that although they didn't want to have their nappy changed it was a necessary evil which would overall keep them happier and healthier, but a baby can't be expected to understand that.

I don't see these things as being the equivalent of CIO at all. CIO is about meeting the parents' wants/desires at the expense of the kids' needs. CIO is about the absence of love, caring, reassurance. CIO is about breaking a kid's spirit and teaching them that no one cares what they need or want. Helping an over-tired, over-active kid to sleep by physically stopping them from moving so much they keep themselves awake is about the kid's need, not the parents'. It's about helping keep that kid healthy and happy overall, even if he's not too impressed right now.

FWIW - I had to 'physically restrain', aka lovingly hold and rock my DD to sleep for almost all of her naps and night-time sleeps for her first year, and about half of them for the next 6 months. I never left her to CIO, and she never slept more than 1-2 hours at a stretch for her entire first year, and even now at 22 months still wakes 3-4 times a night. But she has gradually stopped fighting sleep so much - she'll now tell me she wants to go to bed. She enjoys the snuggling and closeness, and often now when she gets really wiggly and can't settle she'll actually *ask* me to rock her to sleep and even though she wiggles while I rock her she wants me to help her to sleep, and will often be out within a couple of minutes of rocking. I think for a kid who has a lot of difficulty self-regulating, switching off and stopping moving to go to sleep, she's now got a healthy attitude towards it. She knows she needs sleep, and she recognises when she needs help to get to sleep.

I also don't think naps are about a parent's convenience - my life would actually be a lot easier if I didn't need to get home for a few hours in the middle of every day. (DD can't sleep for more than a few minutes out and about, so we need to be home for nap-time)

OP - only you can know for sure about your DD. You know best if she's really trying to drop naps and if you need to try to facilitate that for her, or if she's just fighting sleep and really needs the help to sleep. Given that you said that she used to go to sleep just fine, and has now started to to fight sleep I would guess that she's getting ready to transition out of her nap (as opposed to those kids who fight sleep all their lives as a matter of course). My personal inclination would be to try out no naps for a week or two and if it really wasn't working then to re-evaluate what could be done at that stage, but like I said I don't know your situation or your DD, so you're the best judge of that.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm all for trying to facilitate sleep for an exhausted kid, but I wouldn't be comfortable holding a nearly 2 year old still who wanted to get down. It just seems like there has to be some kind of more agreeable solution.

What has worked well for my kids is routine, routine, routine and a consistent schedule. This has worked especially well for my daughter. My son is a bit more challenging, but we're making progress.

ETA - In regards to crying, I think there is a big difference in a crying infant who is having a hard time transitioning to sleep and a nearly 2 year old who is crying and mad because she wants to get down and doesn't want to take a nap. The children are at completely different developmental stages and shouldn't be treated the same IMO.


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## Mom2Ian (Feb 7, 2008)

I haven't read all of the replies, but I have a (almost) 20 month old son who still takes one nap in the afternoon. He sleeps in a crib (his choice - he has always slept better in there and likes it) and if I know he's tired but having some trouble winding down I will put him in there with some books or a few toys to play with in addition to his bottle. He usually "reads" to himself or plays for a little while (10 minutes or less) and then lays down when he's ready and falls asleep. He usually doesn't cry, but if he does, (of course) I go in to see what's wrong. Usually he will want more milk, need a diaper change or want a toy that he accidentally dropped. Once I've fixed whatever it is, he goes to sleep. Occasionally he just wants some attention and then we play pattycake or sing a song or something and then he goes right out. He seems to need that 10 minute "wind down" period. I figure it is the same as me - I always go to bed when I'm tired but read for about 10 minutes or use my laptop.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I also connected to the pp who said that if a baby/kid didn't need a nap anymore wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be acting like they _don't?_

There is a transition period where the child still needs to rest during the middle of the day but has trouble going to sleep because they are ready to give up their nap. It doesn't matter at what age your child gives up their nap you're going to have an over tired child for a few weeks while their body adjusts.

We've always let our DD regulate her own sleep. When she was getting ready to drop her nap the amount of time she was awake between sleep periods kept increasing. When she had to be up for 8 hours before she could go to sleep we dropped the naps because there is just not 28 hours in a day. For several weeks our DD was grumpy and tantrumy and sometimes hyper during those last 2 or 3 hours before bed. Then she'd sleep 11 or 12 hours.


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