# Curves founded by an anti-choice man



## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

This e-mailed to me recently, and found it troubling. Maybe it is old news...

From today's Jon Carrol column, one of those bits and pieces ones:
"-- Just so you know: Gary Heavin, the founder of the Waco, Texas-based chain of exercise studios called Curves, is a heavy contributor to several organizations allied with Operation Save America, the rather more muscular successor to Operation Rescue, the anti-choice group.
The organizations he funds are spreading the lie that abortions lead to an increased risk of breast cancer. Planned Parenthood says its operations in Texas are being threatened by Heavin-funded clinics based on the old therapeutic model "you must carry your child to term."
In an article in Christianity Today, Heavin expressed pride in his involvement with anti-choice groups, to which he donates 10 percent of Curves' profits. You may do with this information what you will."

And the article from Christianity Today (which doesn't specify which groups he gives to, but does substaniate his giving):

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2004/001/3.30.html

I was going to join Curves, but I guess now I won't...

Any thoughts?


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

this boycott list of mine is getting longer by the day...:LOL

thanks for the info, good to know. i don't know if there are any curves around here, i haven't seen any but i don't get out much either.







: i always wonder where those groups get their moola. too bad it is from unsuspecting consumers sometimes.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamathistle*
thanks for the info, good to know. i don't know if there are any curves around here, i haven't seen any but i don't get out much either.







: i always wonder where those groups get their moola. too bad it is from unsuspecting consumers sometimes.









And how many companies give to Planned Parenthood? I know my boycott list has got to be just as big as yours is -- if I know a company gives funds to pro-abortion groups, I will not patronize that company.

I agree, it's too bad it's not always easy to see where the companies and their owners stand on the issues that we care about. But I'm glad we live in a country that allows them to participate in the political process, and allows us to vote with our dollars (even though you and I are probably canceling each other out with our boycotts







).


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I knew it was a Christian organization, and therefore one that supported anti-choice organizations.

The thing I don't understand about people who hate Planned Parenthood is that "Planned Parenthood" (read the name!), is about family planning, sex education, birth control, and trying to PREVENT abortions. You would think anti-choice people who be all for any organization that worked to try to prevent abortions. Maybe if Planned Parenthood was allowed to work more closely with schools, kids would start getting some of the education that they needed to make more appropriate choices.

Anyway, I know this is getting way off topic. Yes, I had an inkling of what Curves was about, and would not join because of it.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

That makes me wish I had time to go to Curves. But life here has been so busy lately. It did remind me to donate to some anti-choice







organizations soon though.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
The thing I don't understand about people who hate Planned Parenthood is that "Planned Parenthood" (read the name!), is about family planning, sex education, birth control, and trying to PREVENT abortions. You would think anti-choice people who be all for any organization that worked to try to prevent abortions.

Providing abortions seems like a funny way of trying to prevent abortions . . .


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Providing abortions seems like a funny way of trying to prevent abortions . . .









Yes, they try to prevent as many as they can (which is more than I can so for many anti-choice organizations), and provide them for those in need.

Private practice OB-GYN's also provide abortions. I assume you boycott them and only use midwives?


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Good for him! I'm so glad someone is standing behind what they believe in and publicly at that! There are so many pro-abortion supporters that you hear about. Glad to hear about a pro life supporter!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

It did remind me to donate to some anti-choice organizations soon though.
Waste all the money you want. If someone is truly interested in saving the lives of babies, they don't write checks to organizations that discourage birth control. They work with teens and mothers in need, they provide sex education, they offer guidance and support and counseling. (Oh right, that's what Planned Parenthood does.)

Quote:

There are so many pro-abortion supporters that you hear about.
Really? I have never heard of one. And I am pretty active in this area. I can name so called pro-lifers that kill abortion doctors. But I sure can't seem to come up with a single name of someone who is pro-abortion.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Waste all the money you want. If someone is truly interested in saving the lives of babies, they don't write checks to organizations that discourage birth control. They work with teens and mothers in need, they provide sex education, they offer guidance and support and counseling. (Oh right, that's what Planned Parenthood does.)

Actually, that's what I do. And I also give tons of money to pro life organizations. I was once a pregnant teen and a teenage mother. I know what it is. I also know that 12 years later I'm so glad I made the "choice" that I did.

As far as people that kill abortion doctors, that really is a shame. I'm against murder altogether. Whether it's when a baby is in the womb or when it is a dr. walking around minding his own business. They don't need someone to murder them. They'll face their maker when they die.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I also know that 12 years later I'm so glad I made the "choice" that I did.
And I am sincerely happy that you had the freedom to make the choice that worked best for you. Sounds like we are on the same side.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Believe me, when I was scraping the couch cushions for money to buy food I didn't feel like it was the best "choice" the "choice" was when I decided to have unprotected sex. Once the baby was there the choice was no longer. Unless I chose to give the baby up for adoption. Murder wasn't an option, though.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7*
Believe me, when I was scraping the couch cushions for money to buy food I didn't feel like it was the best "choice" the "choice" was when I decided to have unprotected sex. Once the baby was there the choice was no longer. Unless I chose to give the baby up for adoption. Murder wasn't an option, though.











Thank you for doing the right thing (at such a young age!), mama. Many blessings to you and your family.


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## yeah yeah yeah (Aug 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Providing abortions seems like a funny way of trying to prevent abortions . . .










Babies.

And, bathwater.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Private practice OB-GYN's also provide abortions. I assume you boycott them and only use midwives?

I know many pro-lifers who do not use OB-GYNs that preform abortions.
I have been told is rather easy to find a pro-life OB-GYN.

FWIW, personally I only see a Christian CM/NP.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
The thing I don't understand about people who hate Planned Parenthood is that "Planned Parenthood" (read the name!), is about family planning, sex education, birth control, and trying to PREVENT abortions.

Then perhaps you can explain to me why, when I went to PP as a single 24-yr old woman to have a pgy test (which turned out to be positive), I was FIRST offered an abortion? And gently "encouraged" that it would be perfectly OK to kill my baby for the sake of convenience?

Seems to me if you were an org trying to *prevent* abortions, you would offer other options (the kind that keep the baby alive) first...


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

That was certainly not my experience with PP. I also went in for a pg test (which was negative, thank goodness), but we discussed birth control, adoption, pregnancy, etc.

My other experience is when I was driving by, saw a friend in her car driving by, and pulled over so we could chat. Turns out we were near the very same PP clinic. An anti-choice woman came up to my car window and started screaming at me about how I was going to hell for killing babies, etc. I was 17. Turns out their was a little protest going on. Yeah, she really converted me with that attitude.

So who had the worse experience? A PP counselor who gently discussed the option of abortion with you, or the woman screaming at me that I was going to burn in hell?


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

Private practice OB-GYN's also provide abortions. I assume you boycott them and only use midwives?








I don't use doctos at all right now, but if/when I do; my dollars (out of pocket) won't go to a provider of abortions.









Quote:

So who had the worse experience? A PP counselor who gently discussed the option of abortion with you, or the woman screaming at me that I was going to burn in hell?
I bet that overzealous woman didn't know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.









Quote:

the "choice" was when I decided to have unprotected sex. Once the baby was there the choice was no longer. Unless I chose to give the baby up for adoption. Murder wasn't an option, though.
Not the easy road, but you're right. The choice is when you have intercourse! Why should the unborn baby suffer the consequences?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I assume then that you ask potential OB's if they provide abortions. Because really, the majority of them do. We are not talking about sleazy practitioners. Heads of the Dept. at the hospital, those with packed practices in shi shi offices, almost all of the ones on your insurance plan, etc. So you will probably want to make sure that that is the first question you ask when calling around.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I assume then that you ask potential OB's if they provide abortions. Because really, the majority of them do.

Tell that to the pro-abortion groups who are screaming about the rise of Catholic managed-care in this country and the resulting decrease in the availability of abortion.

You raise a good point, though. My health care is provided by Kaiser Permanente. I am going to find out if they provide abortions. If they do, I will urge my husband to switch providers at the next open season, and we will do our research next time. Up to this point, I've primarily focused on not giving money to abortion rights advocates and activists. But you are right, I should absolutely avoid giving money to the providers themselves, even if they're not out there openly advocating for it.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I would be interested in learning the name of pro-abortion group. I have never heard of one.

And why should there be a rise in a specific religion-based health care? As someone else pointed out on another thread, this is not the United States of white heterosexual christian/catholics.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I assume then that you ask potential OB's if they provide abortions. Because really, the majority of them do. We are not talking about sleazy practitioners. Heads of the Dept. at the hospital, those with packed practices in shi shi offices, almost all of the ones on your insurance plan, etc. So you will probably want to make sure that that is the first question you ask when calling around.

Yep! I do! In fact, my OB doesn't give out birth control of any kind. NFP only. It's so refreshing for me to go somewhere where the first question they ask isn't "what kind of birth control do you plan to use?"


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I would be interested in learning the name of pro-abortion group. I have never heard of one.

.


Whole Foods
Newman's Own
Levi's
Ben and Jerry's
Target

Just to name a few. There's a ton more.

Anything vaccine related would be pro abortion b/c that's how they do their research. Through aborted fetuses.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I would be interested in learning the name of pro-abortion group. I have never heard of one.

And why should there be a rise in a specific religion-based health care? As someone else pointed out on another thread, this is not the United States of white heterosexual christian/catholics.

You've never heard of NARAL? National Abortion Rights Action League? Go to their website, read their stuff, and then try to tell me they're not pro-abortion. (Actually, don't try to tell me. I really don't want to hear it. I am VERY familiar with this group and I have concluded that they are, in fact, pro-abortion. If you disagree, it's not worth us discussing it because I doubt either one of us will change our minds.)

As for your second question, I'll turn it back on you: Why SHOULDN'T there be a rise in specific religion-based health care? Health care in this country is not run by the government (only regulated), so anyone who has the resources and expertise can start a managed-care group. That's the beauty of a free market. If you don't like the available options, you are free to try to offer another one. There are Jewish-based health providers, Catholic-based health providers, Seventh-Day Adventist-based health providers, totally secular health providers (these are the majority) . . . the list goes on. The Catholics have just done a very good job of growing their business. Part of it is probably BECAUSE they oppose abortion, euthanasia, etc. -- many people choose them over other providers because they view them the "moral" alternative to mainstream care. They have a "niche" that other health care providers don't.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Really? I have never heard of one. And I am pretty active in this area. I can name so called pro-lifers that kill abortion doctors. But I sure can't seem to come up with a single name of someone who is pro-abortion.

I met someone on an airplane who was actually pro-abortion. This was years ago, and of course I can't remember his name.

He said that he wanted EVERY unmarried teen who got pregnant to be forced to have an abortion!
















Of course, that's not pro-CHOICE. It's just as anti-choice as the, well, "pro-life" people are.

Ann-Marita


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7*
Whole Foods
Newman's Own
Levi's
Ben and Jerry's
Target

Just to name a few. There's a ton more.

Anything vaccine related would be pro abortion b/c that's how they do their research. Through aborted fetuses.

Amy- tell me more! PM if it's considered OT. I don't buy Levi's or Ben & Jerry's for other reasons, but I'm bursting with curious about all the above in regards to this thread.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Do I really have to explain the difference between supporting a woman's rights to choose vs. being pro-abortion? I'm assuming a certain level of intelligence on these boards. If this is not the case, let me know and I'll start over from the beginning.

I'm assuming that means that all the pro-lifers here also refuse vaccines for themselves and their children. I wonder how you feel about government entities trying to force you to use vaccines? I guess it's a good thing we have those exemptions, ahem choices, in place.

And the man you met on the plane was about as supportive as woman's right to choose as pro-lifers are. I actually don't see a big difference in attitude - that's what bugs me about the position that we should make laws about a woman can or can't do with her body. What if that man came into a position to pass laws based on HIS personal belief system?


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*









Do I really have to explain the difference between supporting a woman's rights to choose vs. being pro-abortion? I'm assuming a certain level of intelligence on these boards. If this is not the case, let me know and I'll start over from the beginning.

I'm assuming that means that all the pro-lifers here also refuse vaccines for themselves and their children.

Nope, no vaccines here.









And I've worked with/counseled many a woman who was not told what was really going on inside her body before the abortion. They are young and vulnerable and don't really understand what's happening. Then bam, 10 years later they are regretful and hurting to a point where they can't be saved from even themselves. I take issue with PP and others who won't show a woman the ultrasound they give her before an abortion. What if they want to see it? What if they don't really understand until they see it? I also take issue with universities, high schools, and the workforce where women are treated like garbage because they have a child. In many cases there really is no choice. It's live on the streets or have an abortion. I had sucky childcare for my child when I was a single mother in college. There really was no choice. That's why I work with Feminasts For Life to improve such conditions. If it's truly going to be a choice then it NEEDS to be a choice. Not a pamphlet on adoption that's handed out only b/c they have to with no explanation or anything.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

If it's truly going to be a choice then it NEEDS to be a choice.
I absolutely agree. This is why I take issue with the inflammatory statement of pro-abortion. I personally don't know a single pro-choice person who is pro-abortion. I don't want anyone to have an abortion if it is not right for them. I want them to receive education, counseling. I don't agree with mutilated images of dead babies and a forced ultrasound. If they want an ultrasound, by all means they should have one. But using emotional manipulation is not appropriate either. When Bush was pushing his war, did go on tv and show images of burned and blown up bits of schoolchildren? Yet, that is the reality of what we are doing in Iraq. Heck, we don't even allow images of coffins to be shown on tv.

I am pro-life and pro-choice. But as long as the anti-choice camp focuses their energies on outlawing safe access to abortions, calling women who have abortions murderes, and restricting access to birth control while espousing abstinence and self control, we are not going to save any lives. I believe the pro-choice camp does more towards making sure women have access to education, birth control, and options other than abortion than the anti-choice camp does.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

But you also have to understand that calling me "anti choice" is offensive to me. I am pro life. You and I just have different definitions of the word. I never even heard the terms "anti choice" and "pro abortion" until I came to MDC. I just wish "we" (me included) would just use the proper names. Ones that won't offend. I wouldn't have even gotten involved in this thread had the title been different.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I understand what you're saying, but logically it seems like anti-choice is what applies to someone who believes that women should not have the legal choice of whether to have an abortion or not. But pro-abortion does not describe someone who abhors the idea but thinks that it should be kept safe and available. What is the appropriate term for someone like me who is pro-life and pro-choice?


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

oceanbaby said:


> I'm assuming that means that all the pro-lifers here also refuse vaccines for themselves and their children.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I am *not* anti-choice. Almost everyone who gets pregnant made the *choice* to have sex.
In case it wasn't clear from the above posts, we are talking about the choice to have an abortion.

But maybe we should start a new debate on the legality of the choice to have sex. Maybe we should just make sex illegal. That would sure save a lot of unborn lives. The state could issue a list of regulations that a couple had to meet before being given their 'sex' license.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
In case it wasn't clear from the above posts, we are talking about the choice to have an abortion.

But maybe we should start a new debate on the legality of the choice to have sex. Maybe we should just make sex illegal. That would sure save a lot of unborn lives. The state could issue a list of regulations that a couple had to meet before being given their 'sex' license.

Oceanbaby, I am absolutely anti-choice when it comes to the "choice" to have an abortion. I don't believe it's our choice to make. The baby is already here, living and growing. No one has a right to destroy it.

Are you anti-circ? Or at least familiar with the debate? It's the same argument, really -- the baby is not "your property" and you do not have the right to physically alter it or violate it at will. I have seen many anti-circ'ers make the argument that circumcision should be outlawed because it is so cruel -- yet I often wonder how many of those same people would argue that abortion is a woman's right "to choose."

Anyway, this is the long, convoluted way to say that, yes, I am "anti-choice" when it comes to abortion. But I, like ekblad7, am 100% pro-choice when it comes to having sex. You can choose to have sex -- that's fine. But understand that the major risk of making that choice (regardless of what precautions you take) is that you may end up hosting a child for nine months, and, once born, it will be your responsiblity to decide how best to make provision for that child (whether than means being a parent, offering the baby up for adoption, or simply leaving it at the local fire department if your state has a "safe haven" law).

Wow. It's 6:30PM.







I better go home!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

HoneymoonBaby - in a perfect world I would agree with you 100%. If we lived in a society that supported mother's and children (actually supported them, not this bullcrap lip service rhetoric we are spoonfed), where drug and alcohol abuse, sexual and physical abuse, gun violence and extreme poverty were not everyday problems for so many people - I would be against allowing women the choice to have an abortion as well. But we don't. And it sounds really great to say just don't have sex if you're not prepared to have a baby. But it's just not realistic for so many women.

And plus, like the whole fetal rights bill, my other problem with outlawing abortion is that it sets a precedent for other laws regarding women's bodies - what tests they may have to submit to during pregnancy, what procedures they may have forced on them, etc. - all in the name of doing what is best for the baby. The only way to protect women's rights is to not to start down that slippery slope. We've been considered property before, and I don't want to go back there.

And by the way, I am anti-circ. But not circing my son doesn't trample on any of my rights as a woman, so it's not really the same kind of argument at all. But I sure would be horrified if a Jewish president made the procedure mandatory because it is what his God mandates.


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## arnrie_iz (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
That was certainly not my experience with PP. I also went in for a pg test (which was negative, thank goodness), but we discussed birth control, adoption, pregnancy, etc.

It is my experience and the experience of others close to me. In fact, over the last couple of decades, all women I have met who went to PP when pregnant were *offered* an abortion out of the gate. All of them. In fact, "encouraged" to do so. No counseling was offered. There was no discussion of other "options". I once had a naive opinion of PP but they changed it rather quickly. I suppose we all have our own experiences.

I do know a woman who was ushered into the packed recovery room after her abortion, and she began crying. A PP staff member held her hand up, threatening to slap the young woman, and told her she would strike her if the young woman didn't "shut up!" Of those women I have known over the years who went to PP, none describe the staff as "caring" while all would describe them as business like. (This includes those who did have an abortion and those who didn't).

It seems to me that if a person is pro "choice" they would not be so ardently opposed to those who "choose" to support Pro-life organizations. For those who are Pro-life it isn't about denial of choice. It is about believing the ending of a life is no one's right nor should it be a choice. It is about offering other options and supporting a woman rather than belittling her or labeling her with an offense title because she does not "choose" abortion or believe it's an option.

FWIW, some MWs do provide abortions and advice on herb-induced abortion.

Also, something I am curious about. Before I say it I hope to convey that this is not a criticism or intended as an offense, but honestly something I wonder about. To me it seems the cry of "it isn't supporting abortion/pro-abortion" is twisting and dancing around words. I don't understand such attempts, especially if a person feels strongly in their opinions. Let's face it, the "right to choose" isn't about choosing between raising your child or adoption. The "right to choose" is an issue which came into being because of abortion. Furthermore, how can a person be against something if they support the right to it? Ergo, pro-abortion is a title many do believe fits. For me, the "it isn't pro-abortion" is as silly as insisting a Pro-lifer is "anti-choice" or "anti-woman". Just goofy. If a person believes in something, why not just say so rather than playing with words to soft-coat it? And, if we don't believe it something, why fight to support it?

I also do not understand the denial of a father's role in these "decisions". Yes, I understand all the arguments and complexities of "it's her body, not his". It does not change the fact that there is a baby, a Mother and a Father's baby. Why are a man's rights so less important than a woman's? I just don't get it.

Then there is the argument/statment that blows me away. I can't chose adoption because I couldn't bear to give the baby up or know that my baby is out there somewhere and I don't know him/her. So it's better to end the child than adopt it to another family? I'm lost on that one.

How about "The child would suffer if born to a family who didn't want it". Okay, first, adoption? Second... without debating, without prejudice, find out how Post Abortion Syndrome affects the other children, the future children and the family and generations to come (one child affected carries the affects on to their own). There is a very nasty affect here that needs more attention. It shouldn't be part of the "issue", it should be of grave concern for all sides.

I do not understand those who believe it is okay to kill an adult who provides abortions anymore than I understand the support of abortion.

I also do not understand the resorting to inflammatory, unrealistic or derogatory statements in trying to illustrate personal beliefs. Using manipulative statements, which paint others as ignorant, hasty, and fanatical serves only to make oneself appear uneducated and without enough belief in their own opinions to explain them well.

Another thing I wonder about is this: PP is part of another issue we, in my area, hear a great deal about. The Informed Choice. PP lobbies stringently against a Woman's Right To Know. Why? A woman has the right to an abortion but doesn't have a right to an education? This position confuses me greatly.

In my experience, PP stifles a women's right to know, they encourage abortions, they influence the decisions of [often confused and afraid] women (and girls), they have not advised of other options nor discussed those options... perhaps more devastating is their denial of the affects an abortion may have. A woman should know this and should be supported by those who call for her "right to choose abortion" and that includes PP. For goodness sake, be there for her after the abortion! Prepare her for what is to come. Don't leave her to suffer. Don't leave her to learn on her own how greatly and adversely her life, and the lives of future children may be affected simply for the sake of attempting to portray abortion as a viable and harmless method of birth control. I'm sorry, I understand you respect PP, but from all I have seen they do not have my respect at all. Nor would anyone, medically oriented or not, who does not supply a woman (a family) will all necessary information and support. Again, we all have our own experiences.

Back to the beginning of this thread... No, I did not know Curves was in anyway connected with Pro-life. Many times a connection with either side of this issue is not commonly know, though this is the first I have learned of a Pro-life connection.

(This is the first I've commented in any public arena on this issue and hope I've made some sense as I tried and did so without offense -- it was not my intent to debate, but to offer insight into feelings and perhaps explain, from one point of view, the opinion of PP -- though I see I had more to say than I thought and even I might have been bored by it <laugh>).


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## Knittin' in the Shade (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

And it sounds really great to say just don't have sex if you're not prepared to have a baby. But it's just not realistic for so many women.
Are you serious? Um, why not? If a woman can't realistically be expected to make a wise choice in whether or not she should have sex, how in the world can anyone expect her to make a wise choice in terms of aborting or continuing a pregnancy?


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

oceanbaby said:


> HoneymoonBaby - in a perfect world I would agree with you 100%. If we lived in a society that supported mother's and children (actually supported them, not this bullcrap lip service rhetoric we are spoonfed), where drug and alcohol abuse, sexual and physical abuse, gun violence and extreme poverty were not everyday problems for so many people - I would be against allowing women the choice to have an abortion as well.
> 
> Sorry. I don't know how ti use this feature. Please bear with me.
> 
> ...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

A friend of mine's mother almost died because she was denied an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy at a Catholic hospital-- the only hospital for miles. How is that pro-life? If the mom dies the baby dies. Who is saved? Again, how is that PRO-life? That sounds decidedly anti-life to me.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Super Pickle, you might try adding [/quote] at the end of the quote and see if that helps..the new features are fun it just might take a bit to get used to.

Can we get this thread back on topic please? this thread is about Curves and it's owner supporting Operation Rescue. This thread is NOT about PP nor is it to argue abortion. If you would like to discuss abortion or PP then please start a new thread.

Thanks.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy*
Super Pickle, you might try adding

at the end of the quote and see if that helps..the new features are fun it just might take a bit to get used to. [/quote]

Let's see if that worked....

Anyway, back on topic, I'd never even heard of Curves before this thread, but it sounded good to me, and like a business I'd like to support (plus I've got 15 lbs I'd like to lose) so I checked it out and probably would've signed up except they have nowhere for your kids to go while you work out! My dh is never available to watch the children so I guess I can't join! It's ironic. I think if we had a more family-friendly society we'd have fewer abortions anyway. Maybe I'll write a letter to the founder suggesting that he could get the business of a lot more single moms and SAHM's if the outlets made provisions for children.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

If a woman can't realistically be expected to make a wise choice in whether or not she should have sex, how in the world can anyone expect her to make a wise choice in terms of aborting or continuing a pregnancy?
What about the women who make wise choices by using birth control and it fails? And if we can't trust her to make wise choices as to whether to continue a pregnancy or not, then how can we trust her to manage her pregnancy? Or raise a child? I guess we'd better regulate her throughout the whole process because she was stupid enough to get herself knocked up.

I'm getting tired of this old argument that smirks of "just exercise some self control," "you made your bed now lie in it," and "I did it so you can too." It really is such an unchristian attitude that I find the hypocrisy mindboggling.

Abortion has existed for thousands of years. It will exist whether it is legal or not. If one really cares about saving lives instead of pushing their religious rhetoric, they will work for educating teens, availability of birth control, better adoption laws, and more social support for single mothers and families.

You can call it whatever you want - work tirelessly to make abortion illegal and you only lose more lives. But it's your choice.

Signing out.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
at the end of the quote and see if that helps..the new features are fun it just might take a bit to get used to.
Let's see if that worked....

Anyway, back on topic, I'd never even heard of Curves before this thread, but it sounded good to me, and like a business I'd like to support (plus I've got 15 lbs I'd like to lose) so I checked it out and probably would've signed up except they have nowhere for your kids to go while you work out! My dh is never available to watch the children so I guess I can't join! It's ironic. I think if we had a more family-friendly society we'd have fewer abortions anyway. Maybe I'll write a letter to the founder suggesting that he could get the business of a lot more single moms and SAHM's if the outlets made provisions for children.

Many of the Curves locations do not have much floor space. My Curves would have to be twice as big to support a daycare type facility. I'm like you, except I have a tiny window. IF I get out the door at 6:40am I have just enough time to work out and get back home before dh leaves for work.

And those who are concerned about his donations... each Curves facility has to pay a set amount each month to Curves Intl so the number of members they have does not affect how much money goes to Gary.

For me, it's refreshing to give money to a company that I believe in it's cause so I understand your right to not support that business if you wish to do so.


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*









Do I really have to explain the difference between supporting a woman's rights to choose vs. being pro-abortion? I'm assuming a certain level of intelligence on these boards. If this is not the case, let me know and I'll start over from the beginning.

I'm assuming that means that all the pro-lifers here also refuse vaccines for themselves and their children. I wonder how you feel about government entities trying to force you to use vaccines? I guess it's a good thing we have those exemptions, ahem choices, in place.

And the man you met on the plane was about as supportive as woman's right to choose as pro-lifers are. I actually don't see a big difference in attitude - that's what bugs me about the position that we should make laws about a woman can or can't do with her body. What if that man came into a position to pass laws based on HIS personal belief system?


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
...Anyway, this is the long, convoluted way to say that, yes, I am "anti-choice" when it comes to abortion. But I, like ekblad7, am 100% pro-choice when it comes to having sex...

The issue isn't whether or not women should be allowed to choose intercourse, it's whether or not they should be allowed to choose abortion. So, as you said so well, you are "anti-choice."

I am *not* pro-abortion. I am pro-choice because the issue at hand is what happens _once a woman is pregnant_. I think what happens should be the choice of the woman who is pregnant.

And back on topic, I think it's sad that all these _women_ are flocking to a company that is ultimately making one _man_ very rich. The fact that he and his wife gave away 10 million dollars last year, a lot of it to anti-choice groups, makes me feel even more secure in my decision not to support Curves.


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arnrie_iz*
It is my experience and the experience of others close to me. In fact, over the last couple of decades, all women I have met who went to PP when pregnant were *offered* an abortion out of the gate. All of them. In fact, "encouraged" to do so. No counseling was offered. There was no discussion of other "options". I once had a naive opinion of PP but they changed it rather quickly. I suppose we all have our own experiences.

this is absurd. i find this hard to believe, its propaganda. what a first post.

anyway, when i got pregnant with my daughter, i had no insurance for a doc pregnancy test. i went to planned parenthood because their tests are $10 and are considered an 'official' test to give to Medicaid to apply for coverage. i went in and took the test, and they took me into a councel room immediately, a very nice lady gave me pamphlets on healthy start (medicaid program) and prenatal care (they offer some check up services) and thats it. i said 'i guess the test was positive' and started to cry (we had been trying for over a year and i couldnt believe i had been able to finally get pregnant) she said i was 'probably 8 weeks along and i should be seen by a doc as soon as possible...for prenatals'. she had no idea why i was crying...it could have been very different than it was. no mention of an abortion. nothing. i was there. this isnt second or third hand 'all my friends' type of info.

i like planned parenthood, i think of how happy i was to find out i was having my daughter. alot of women dont have insurance, and planned parenthood offers affordable exams and tests, etc. I cant stand it when me and my girl drive by or walk by the one near my home and there are hateful people holding horrid signs that my child has to look at, yelling hateful things. someday i will have to explain why people are so quick to cast stones, and force their beliefs on others.

I also take offense to being called pro-abortion. i dont see it as the same as being called 'anti-choice' unless you are truely pro-life. you dont agree with abortion, okay, thats a given. anyone who supports a wasteful war or the military in general, or the death penalty, etc.....couldn't be pro life.

back on topic:

thanks for providing the information on Curves. i am glad i joined the other ladies gym in my neighborhood instead of that one. I wonder who owns the one i ended up joining????









edited cuz i said 'could be' instead of 'couldnt be' makes a big difference


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I joined Curves and really liked it until I heard about all of this nonsense. I'm trying to figure out a way to get out of my contract.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

er...sorry Super Pickle..like this

[ quote ] text [ / quote ]

like that but without the spaces..

but if you click the quote button you shouldn't have to do that..maybe you deleted the last [/quote] thing when you deleted the text you weren't keeping in the quote.

Just make sure when you delete stuff that both


> thingies are there....


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Thanks for the information. Right now I am broke so it's not an option anyway!!!!

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. However, I wish that for a company that promotes women's health they would not endorse an organization that wants to take away women's health rights.







:


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arnrie_iz*
Second... without debating, without prejudice, find out how Post Abortion Syndrome affects the other children, the future children and the family and generations to come (one child affected carries the affects on to their own). There is a very nasty affect here that needs more attention. It shouldn't be part of the "issue", it should be of grave concern for all sides.)

Ummm....WHAT??? are you talking about? Are you saying the children of a woman who had a previous abortion are affected by the abortion somehow, and so are their children?

Then I guess the same must hold true for children of a woman who has had a miscarriage, aka a spontaneous abortion, followed by a D&C.


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

I'm glad now that I didn't join Curves. My mom did for a little while, but couldn't find time so she quit. The first thing I noticed was that there was no place for kiddos, and the lady told me (I was carrying my son) that I would have to find "something to do with him" because I couldn't have him in there after the orientation day.

Funny how a single place can be antichoice and antichild all at the same time.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

I'm assuming a certain level of intelligence on these boards. If this is not the case, let me know and I'll start over from the beginning.
Most of us (probably all of us!) here at MDC pride ourselves in being informed and making knowledgeable decisions. Nice to know that if I don't agree on you on certain issues that I'm not intelligent. What a lovely welcome to activism. Now I know why I stayed away so long.

We're not going to change each other's minds, I have my views and you have yours. Go in peace.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachmentfeminist*
Funny how a single place can be antichoice and antichild all at the same time.

ANTICHILD????? That's a new one. So if a private health club doesn't have childcare available, they are "antichild?" I've had memberships at clubs that provide childcare -- they're very expensive and the quality of childcare is really not that good. If childcare is going to make or bereak my ability to go to the gym, I'd rather save the money on the pricey gym membership by joining a bare-bones club like Curves and use the money I save to pay someone I know and trust to watch my child. Less convenient, yes, but worth it, IMO -- and it would never occur to me that the less expensive gym with fewer "perks" was antichild . . . just more "basic."


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I would think that any company that promoted itself as anti-choice (pro-life, whatever) would go out of its way to make children welcome. It frustrates me to no end how anti-child, that's right, many anti-choice organizations are. The church I grew up in comes to mind. No kids allowed during "big church" and the only option was a nursery manned by one teeny little old lady who used a walker.

I found out last night something else about my Curves that bugs the crap out of me. I have seen kids sitting at tables in the back coloring while mom works out, and actually thought it was pretty cool. Someone else who goes there told me that a few weeks ago a hispanic woman came in with her kids and they were asked to leave. Apparently the woman commented that she'd seen kids in there before and the person working there flat out lied and said that they never allowed kids while mom was working out. Another reason not to go there.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
ANTICHILD????? That's a new one. So if a private health club doesn't have childcare available, they are "antichild?" I've had memberships at clubs that provide childcare -- they're very expensive and the quality of childcare is really not that good. If childcare is going to make or bereak my ability to go to the gym, I'd rather save the money on the pricey gym membership by joining a bare-bones club like Curves and use the money I save to pay someone I know and trust to watch my child. Less convenient, yes, but worth it, IMO -- and it would never occur to me that the less expensive gym with fewer "perks" was antichild . . . just more "basic."

Ditto, ditto, ditto. I do not leave my kids with just anyone. They are too precious to me.


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Someone else who goes there told me that a few weeks ago a hispanic woman came in with her kids and they were asked to leave. Apparently the woman commented that she'd seen kids in there before and the person working there flat out lied and said that they never allowed kids while mom was working out. Another reason not to go there.

This doesn't surprise me at al...how sad.

And yes, it is antichild to treat mothers this way. What would YOU think if you were signing up to give your money to an organization and they sneer at your baby and say "you'll have to find something to do with him" as if I'm supposed to teather him to a signpost before I enter their sacred gym.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

A couple of friends of mine just joined Curves, I will have to send them that link and hope they can find a way out of their contract.

Good to know about Target and Whole Foods! That's where I do most of my shopping!


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Maybe if Planned Parenthood was allowed to work more closely with schools, kids would start getting some of the education that they needed to make more appropriate choices.


Boy, I couldn't agree more. When my kids were growing up we always had teenagers at the house and pond and I saw a LOT os what was going on. More than once did I send a girl to Planned Parenthood to get some advice because I could see with my own eyes that this girl was going to be pregnant if she is not on birth control soon.

I think a lot of unwanted pregnancies and *abortions* were prevented because of my suggestions and because of Planned Parenthood.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachmentfeminist*
. . . if you were signing up to give your money to an organization . . .

If I'm signing up for Curves, I'm not signing up to "give my money to an organization." I'm paying for a service. If I wanted to give my money to an organization, I'd give it to crisis pregnancy center or my church or something. If I want to go to the gym , I'll cut a check to Curves. Two totally different things.


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## arnrie_iz (Apr 28, 2004)

I wish Curves did offer childcare for those interested. I wouldn't utilize such facilities myself, but understand others might. I do understand Curves' limited availability of space, though also understand the impression others may have.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
this is absurd. i find this hard to believe, its propaganda.

No, it isn't. I'm sorry you took it as such.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
i was there. this isnt second or third hand 'all my friends' type of info.

So was I. So were others I know. These experiences are not invalidated simply because they disagree with your opinion/experience. (I wonder why you don't quote other "third person" statements and label them absurd and propaganda as well?)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Ummm....WHAT??? are you talking about?

Post Abortion Syndrome. If you don't know of it, you should. We all should. It is NOT about being Pro-life or Pro-choice. It really is quite simple to learn about and understand. Should you find a website that is tainted by an agenda, close it and find a better one. There are many sources out there.

We should all be able to offer a woman more than "this is/isn't your choice". Certainly none of us think the choice ends the issue for a woman. Birth, adoption, abortion... no single action ends there, without memories, without emotions, without ongoing affects of some sort. No matter our beliefs, no woman should be abandoned.

If you've taken this as an attempt to change your view, you have taken me wrong.

I wonder if the organizations the Curves' founder supports also supports women post-abortion (there are those on either side who do). At this time in my life, I find this issue is of great importance to me and it saddens me to know that strong voices in the issue of abortion are unaware of anything beyond the abortion.

(Edited to delete a doubled word).


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

I was thinking that after this pregnancy, I would join Curves, since there is one literally behind my house. I can walk to it in 5 mins. But now I know I won't. I had an abortion in 1989, I know firsthand what its like to be pregnant, have no support, and know that abortion is the best thing. Been there, done that, and no way I would knowingly support anyone who thinks they know someone elses situation better then the person in it.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I honestly think abortion debate should be forbidden on these boards. Because God forbid anyone suggest they might be pro-life (and I am quite offended by pro-lifers being called anti-choice, BTW) suddenly the pro-choicers come out of the woodwork and get down right SNOTTY about it. Check your tone, ladies. Listen to yourselves. There ARE other, valid points of view besides yours.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arnrie_iz*
...Post Abortion Syndrome. If you don't know of it, you should. We all should. It is NOT about being Pro-life or Pro-choice. ..

Post Abortion Syndrome (PSA) is not recognized by the American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association or the American Medical Association.

Do some women have regret, sorrow and/or depression after an abortion? Of course. There are hotlines like Exhale and books/websites like Peace After Abortion that provide women with non-judgemental support.

However, that someone women experience symptoms like depression does not mean that there is a syndrome. "PSA" is a term made up by anti-choicers. The fact that *no* major medical group recognizes it, in spite of extensive research and studies, speaks volumes, in my opinion


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Post Abortion Syndrome (PSA) is not recognized by the American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association or the American Medical Association.

Do some women have regret, sorrow and/or depression after an abortion? Of course. There are hotlines like Exhale and books/websites like Peace After Abortion that provide women with non-judgemental support.

However, that someone women experience symptoms like depression does not mean that there is a syndrome. "PSA" is a term made up by anti-choicers. The fact that *no* major medical group recognizes it, in spite of extensive research and studies, speaks volumes, in my opinion

So, just because mainstream medical establisments don't recongnize it means it doesn't exist? It's precisely because of the medical communities attitude that it exists in the first place- the attitude that having an abortion is no big deal. It is a huge deal, for most women, and they aren't prepared for the after effects. I know I wasn't. I was never offered pre-or post counselling at all; I still suffer from whatever you want to call it..........

Thanks for telling me it doesn't exist. Must be all in my head.

Kristi


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole*
So, just because mainstream medical establisments don't recongnize it means it doesn't exist? It's precisely because of the medical communities attitude that it exists in the first place- the attitude that having an abortion is no big deal. It is a huge deal, for most women, and they aren't prepared for the after effects. I know I wasn't. I was never offered pre-or post counselling at all; I still suffer from whatever you want to call it..........

Thanks for telling me it doesn't exist. Must be all in my head.
...

I'm sorry you were not offered pre or post-abortion counseling. I hope you'll consider checking out one or both of the links I provided, perhaps they can be of help to you now.

However, because some women experience depression and other symptoms after an abortion does not mean that _Post Abortion Syndrome_ exists. That doesn't mean whatever you felt wasn't/isn't real or that you don't deserve help. It simply means that what you are going through is not common enough to warrant calling it "syndrome".


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

pugmadmama, ITA. It is like the phony connection the "pro-lifers" like to pretend exists with breast cancer. More misinformation to spread fear.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Good for him!!! There's nothing more natural than pregnancy and children....I'm happy he's standing up for babies!


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

So, is it just the term "post-abortion syndrome" that you have a problem with? Would you agree with "post-abortion depression"? I don't really understand.

For the record, I am pro-choice when it comes to the legal issue, but feel that there needs to be more information given to women so that they can make an informed choice. I honestly don't want to get into my situation, but let me say, I am an intelligent person, and I didn't know all that was involved emotionally. I also saw a woman (teenager) have an abortion done against her will. She went in crying and saying how she didn't want it done, that her mom was making her, please don't do it..........this was in the waiting room. You could hear her in the room later; and after, when we were all in the recovery room, she was crying and shaking. I found that horrible, and hopefully illegal, on so many levels. And, like I mentioned, there wasn't ANY pre-or post counseling offered, so this poor girl who was forced into it didn't even get any help.

I realize this has gone way OT, but I really wish that pro-choicers would admit that for SOME women, there can be grave emotional consequenses after an abortion, and those feelings shouldn't be swept under the rug or made light of. It's taken me seven years to seek help, because I didn't realize any existed (other than the kind of "help" where they tell you that everything's fine and an abortion is no big deal). I don't think that every woman experiences this, but some do, and in my experience, alot of women I know do. Sigh.

Kristi


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

For anyone who is interested in post-abortion healing, please feel free to pm me and I can help you find the help you need







.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole*
So, is it just the term "post-abortion syndrome" that you have a problem with? ....but I really wish that pro-choicers would admit that for SOME women, there can be grave emotional consequenses after an abortion, and those feelings shouldn't be swept under the rug or made light of. It's taken me seven years to seek help, because I didn't realize any existed (other than the kind of "help" where they tell you that everything's fine and an abortion is no big deal). I don't think that every woman experiences this, but some do, and in my experience, alot of women I know do. ...

Yes, it is the term "Post Abortion Syndrome" that I have the problem with. Why? Because the groups that use it have an agenda _other than just helping women post-abortion_. They want to convince women that their abortion was wrong and that abortion in general is wrong. Anti-choice groups use the term "Post Abortion Syndrome" not because they want to help individual women heal, but because they want to end abortion as a whole. They claim that a ridiculously high percentage of women "suffer" from "PSA", when every properly conducted study says otherwise. For example, you would never guess from these groups that the studies conducted by the Ameircan Medical Association found that far fewer women suffer depression post-abortion than post-birth.

Hotlines like Exhale and books/websites like Peace After Abortion offer _non-judgemental_ support. They don't have a set agenda other than supporting women after an abortion. If a woman seeking help there feels that her abortion was a grave mistake, that's okay. But if another woman feels like her abortion was not a mistake, then that's okay too. They support *all* women, they recognize the full range of emotions that a woman can have post-abortion as valid, and that's why I support them.

I agree that the pro-choice community as a whole has been slow to recognize the full range of emotions that a woman might feel after an abortion. That was wrong. But that is changing. And that young women who was forced into having an abortion? That's completely wrong. Pro-choice is just that, supporting a woman's right to make her own choice. Anything less than that is unacceptable.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Faith*
FWIW, personally I only see a Christian CM/NP.

Are you trying to imply a Christian is always anti-choice? If so, it is simply untrue.

FWIW, I am a Christian. I don't want anybody dictating to me how I practice my beliefs, so I don't presume to make that choice for anybody else. I am anti-abortion personally, for me and me alone. I am pro-choice politically and will not judge somebody who is faced with the decision. It is simply between her and her God.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I want to quote everything Oceanbaby wrote and give her a big thumbs up!

I had an abortion at 14 years old. I didn't have a choice in the matter of getting pregnant. I did have a choice about whether or not I wanted to walk around carrying the baby of a man I barely knew and didn't have any positive feelings for. I got to decide whether or not I wanted to walk around town as a pregnant teen, belly full of baby, dodging sneers and answering ridiculous questions about who the father was, and what I planned to do, and how I planned to support the baby, and...Thank GOD I had that choice.

Planned Parenthood gave me a list of places to call. The list of adoption agencies was far longer than the list of places that performed abortions. I knew that I wouldn't give the baby up for adoption. I was not in any sort of condition to have a pregnant pregnancy or childbirth and would not have been able to show any sort of positive feelings towards it. 15 months later I made the choice to give birth to a beautiful baby girl. I adored my pregnancy, I adored her father. I'm glad I made the choice to bring her into this world. I hope to hell that nothing bad ever happens to her. She's 12 now. Her reproductive system could kick into gear at any moment. I would hate for her to be sexually assaulted, end up pregnant, and not have the same choices that I had.

I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. There is a difference, a huge one. I do not set out telling pregnant women to get an abortion, but if one comes to me and says she doesn't know if she can do it I will give her all of her options. ALL of them. I would help her every step of the way on any choice she made. Pro-Lifers ARE anti-choice. They do not believe in the choice of the woman to make the best decision for herself and possibly her future child. The only "choice" in their book is to give birth, regardless of the outcome or the situation that may have led to the pregnancy.

As for Curves, I think it's funny that a man founded it. It's like he was saying "eh, far too many fatties around for my taste, maybe I'll round them all up and see if I can get them to lose a pound or 20." As for him being anti-choice; if he really supported the "right to life" don't you think he would be smart enough to make sure that all the women that he's trying to force into giving birth at least have a safe place to take their children while on his property?


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
As for Curves, I think it's funny that a man founded it. It's like he was saying "eh, far too many fatties around for my taste, maybe I'll round them all up and see if I can get them to lose a pound or 20."

Are you at all familiar with Curves?
That's not their philosophy AT ALL.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Nope, actually I'm not. I was just amused that it was a man who founded the company.

What I found really amusing was that just after I read this thread I took my dd to her softball game. All the teams have these big tarp things that say "Sposored by:..." I've never seen one for our team before and wondered who our sponser was. Today they put up a sign. We're sponsored by Curves!


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## arnrie_iz (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Post Abortion Syndrome (PSA) is not recognized by the American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association or the American Medical Association.

I wouldn't discount it on that basis. Many of the diagnoses now recognized were not immediately known/recognized. In fact, nothing is recognized until, well, until it's recognized. lol It takes time, understanding and research. In fact, many of the diagnoses now "on the books" change as we learn more and are able to redefine them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Do some women have regret, sorrow and/or depression after an abortion?

And far more at times.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Because the groups that use it have an agenda other than just helping women post-abortion.

It is 'unfortunate' that any group pushing an agenda is so wrapped up in that agenda that they use/deny a woman's suffering for their own gain. ("Unfortunate" being a lightly placed word <g>).

When I first learned the term, it was not through a site supporting one side or the other. I was fortunate in that, I suppose. I find it heartbreaking to know some do use it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
It simply means that what you are going through is not common enough to warrant calling it "syndrome".

A syndrome isn't defined by the number of people displaying it though. I think it simply means there isn't enough known yet... perhaps there will be before long.

Re: "studies" done... Maybe something to consider is that there are women who do not seek help, nor do they freely admit/confide that they've had an abortion, to anyone? For those with PAS, it could be extremely difficult to speak of it at all.

FWIW, for some with PAS, knowing it is real does help. It's as if it makes it okay to know others do feel as you do, that others are not going to judge you a "murderer" or a "traitor" as you seek healing.

We are the sorts who often buck what the major medical groups follow/say/do. I don't think their opinion is going to bother any of us, either way.







:LOL


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

First of all, I completely agree with all of our rights to support and not support companies and individuals based on their political affiliation or contributions, and I think it's great when people support those causes they believe in.

Second, I think all of this discussion of whether women are emotionally damaged by abortion is peripheral and unimportant to the central issue, for me. I think it's interesting to think about and important for helping women get over trauma, but all that matters to me is whether it is wrong or right, murder or medical procedure.

The arguments about how costly or dangerous or safe or hurtful or relieving or practical or impractical have nothing to do with the important thing, which is that it is incontrivertiblly wrong, for everyone, to kill anyone else.

I think these "facts" about post abortion "syndrome" and fallacious links to breast cancer anre just scare tactics which detract from the importance and strength of the movement.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

have nothing to do with the important thing, which is that it is incontrivertiblly wrong, for everyone, to kill anyone else.
I think you forgot to add "in my opinion" to your post.


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

I have noticed more and more Curves opening up here and I remembered something from this forum on it..so I dug up this thread. And of course the thread meandered way into the topic of prochoice/prolife (a topic I tend to skip) anyway, I actually found the topic of Gary Heavin.. and by the way..is that his birth name? anyway, I find his background is kind of curious....

Quote:

This highly successful chain is the brainchild of Gary Heavin, a Texas businessman who earlier in his life had a 17-location fitness center chain before filing bankruptcy, divorcing, losing custody of his two children, and serving a six-month jail sentence for failure to pay child support. Although a Christian from his teen years, he re-committed his life to Christ while in jail, after which he and his new wife (whom he married just before his incarceration) opened the first Curves in Harlingen, Texas, in 1992.
http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/curves.asp


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Oceanbaby...

I thought that the question was not if it is OK or not to kill other people... but if the people in question who are being killed are actually PEOPLE.

Do you really think that the wrongness of killing others is a matter of OPINION?


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