# Which is worse?



## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

If you do think some or all of these are not good, how would you rank them from worse to least worse? I was discussing this w/my dh, and will see if I can use this poll feature to vote and respond


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Yeah the poll worked lol

I voted cio.

My rank would be:

cio
vax
formula
circ

My dh thinks:

cio
vax
circ
formula

We were discussing it, and felt that the emotional damage from cio was pretty severe and long - lasting. I think the damage from vaxxing is pretty high too, but decided to vote just for one. I put formula above circ simply b/c I've read a lot more on ff and bf than I have on circ, so although I would not circ, and am against it, haven't educated myself on it a lot. Dh put formula last b/c he figures babes need food, and at least they are being fed.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I put:
Circ
CIO
Vax
Formula

I hate when people CIO and I think that alot of the children will need therapy from it, but at least you don't lose a part of your body for it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I voted CIO. My list is:

Worst: CIO
Then Circumcision
Then Formula
Then Va

I think vax is a personal choice, and one that I don't (or at least haven't) made. Of course bf is best if it is possible, but I know a few great mamas who formula feed after struggling to bf without success. And I think that's really no big deal in the end.

Circumcision is horrible. It is imo a brutality committed against a young boy that robs him forever of part of his body, and also of the heights of sexual pleasure (I think a cut penis doesn't experience as intense sensations as an intact one).

But CIO to me is the very worst. Because it is repeated abandonment, the thwarting of the cry response cycle, and it teaches a babe that s/he is helpless to get her needs met. Over and over. And so this I believe is the most damaging.

ETA: Also, unlike circ, CIO is a violation that can be committed against any baby, not just half of them.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

the worst would be circumcision, because it is GENITAL MUTILATION.









then CIO, for the emotional trauma.

and IMO you can't really compare vaxxes or formula to those two, because you can be a loving, compassionate ap-parent & use formula, or vax.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:

and IMO you can't really compare vaxxes or formula to those two, because you can be a loving, compassionate ap-parent & use formula, or vax.
I agree that you can be a loving ap parent and use those, but I just feel that there are a lot of potential long term risks- esp w/vax that aren't always made available in order for ppl to make an informed choice on. By no way do I think it's awful when ppl try and want to bf, I just don't think it's good to not even want to do it, and I thinks is awful for those who really want to, and for whatever reason, actually can't do it. I don't think it's awful for ppl to vax- all of these are personal decisions. I'm just voting based on what I think are risks, and I know I need to learn a lot more about circ!


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

ps, by no means do I mean to imply that if anyone does any or all of these, that they aren't ap, well, I do think CIO is def not ap, but I am just curious as to how others at mdc feel


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

I voted CIO as the worse. Circ was next and very close but if its an unbotched circ the pain doesn't last as long as the memories of being left alone to cry by yourself everynight. At least in my book. I formula fed and while I know and advocate for breastfeeding I'm a great mom who had problems with breastfeeding. Vax is a personal choice. I don't do it and I will speak out against it or at least making an informed decision. I'm only ever saddened when people think that vax is mandatory or they don't know what is in them or what their kid has had so far. I just can't stand passive parenting like that.
I think another issue is carseat safety I would rank that after CIO and before circ.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

sweetfeet is car seat safety a big concern where you live? I think it's very important but have never heard of anyone not using one?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

That was a hard one for me between formula feeding and CIO. I picked formula feeding because of the increased risks of things like leukemia, female and other certain cancers, obseity, asthma, allergies, and other diseases.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Oh my, I'm afraid this thread might be ugly.

I think CIO is the worst because it can affect a child's inner well-being, their sense of self, the way the see the world, the way they regulate their emotions, their bond with their parents and their ability to bond with other important people in their lives.

Circumcision because the part belongs to the boy, not his parents. It should be his choice.

Vax is not evil. It may be dangerous but most parents vax with the best of intentions. Abi is fully vaxed. Some of them I regret, most I don't. Nitara is being vaxed on a delayed schedule with thought put into each one.

Formula is the least evil. It can lead to neglect, and it certainly doesn't have the immune protection and a few other things that breastmilk does but I know many loving formula feeding moms including myself.







I bottlenursed my first dd with lots of bodily contact and love. My second is tube-fed and growing very well on formula. She will probably be on it for a few years to come and she's strong, bright, and developmentally on track or ahead in most areas. She has chronic ear infections from her severe reflux (my first dd didn't have any at all, and was hardly ever sick even on formula).

So there you go. There's my two cents.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I just can't stand passive parenting like that.
neither can i!! BUT ~ there are a lot of fully informed people who still choose to vaccinate. i don't think we can say that someone is a "passive" parent simply because they choose to vaccinate. there is a lot of scientifically sound, very well-conducted studies that have been done that show that vaccinations are safe and effective. i understand that people question them ~ i think we should question EVERYTHING ~ but after doing all the research, i feel that the choice to vaccinate has been the right one. i just can't equate that with, say, forcing your baby to cry alone, without being held or talked to or anything, often until the child throws up -- their physiological stress levels are through the roof when they CIO, and that's just awful, IMO. every piece of research has illustrated the harm that CIO does to a child, not just emotionally, but *physically* ~ pathways in their brain are damaged by it.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:

neither can i!! BUT ~ there are a lot of fully informed people who still choose to vaccinate.
Thats not how I intended that to be read.







What I meant was that a lot of people I know or encounter say that you MUST vaccinate or you have to do it by the time they are in school so why not on a schedule. Most people I know do not have a clue as to what their child is being vaccinated for and on what schedule. Thats what I mean by passive, I'll do whatever the doctor says without a second thought, parenting. I know very few parents who have done any sort of reading up on vaccines irl. I vax'd until she was 6 months despite a nagging feeling that I shouldn't or that it was so much at one time. I thought that I had to until she had a reaction. I was dumb, I admit it, I never thought twice. My friends mother asked me to just read up. Her 15 yo son is a vegetable from his DTaP shots. I've know him since he was 6 but I naively thought that vaxes were safer now. Anyhow I really do think its a personal choice I just wish that people were more informed is all.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I really do think its a personal choice I just wish that people were more informed is all
me too.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:

sweetfeet is car seat safety a big concern where you live? I think it's very important but have never heard of anyone not using one?
Oh people use them but I think something like 70-95% are installed incorrectly depending on where you get the info. I think its abhorable. There are free seat checks and many parents don't read instruction manuals.







I was watching Dr. Phil this week and it was some marriage readiness tests and they had these 3 couples install carseats. Not one couple read the directions. Also Ohio's law sucks. Its only to 3 years and 40 pounds







After that you don't even get a ticket for backseat passengers being unbuckled. Just front seat.*shrugs*


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I voted CIO being the worst... it's just awful


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

I've heard that about car seats being improperly installed as well. Where we live, there are lots of free car- seat checks. I *think* they are trying to make it a law that your child needs to be in a booster seat until the age of 8, but I'm not sure.

I agree it's soo important to read up on anything, and not just take your dr's advice. Whatever decision one comes to is best for them. I certianly don't mean for this to be a horrible poll! I do see how some things are controversial though, and very personal. I guess for me, I was trying to look at the long term effects/possible damages from each of these, as well as the immediate. It was very hard to choose which order I thought to put things on, and it's quite possible as I learn and grow, this rank may change


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Here's my ranking:
Carseat Safety
CIO
Vax
Formula
Circ

Carseat safety: Letting a child CIO once or twice might cause psychological harm, but with enough reasurance (and a return to AP ways) most children can heal. Forget to use a carseat once and the child can be DEAD!

CIO- can scar a child for life- and it can scar parents too, making them less sensitive- plus it's something that's done repeatedly.

Vax: I'm not anti-vax: I'm anti forced vax. If it were up to me, my kids would have gotten a mercury-free Tetenas-only shot (I'm well aware this doesn't actualy exist) at about age 1, all others to be reconsidered around puberty. In reality, my girls are "fully vaccinated" and my son is "almost fully vaccinated" and will be getting the last 2 within the next few months.







I simply don't have the strength to fight "the system" right now.

Formula: It's not "evil." It's far inferior to human milk but there are plenty of situations where it's warranted. Commercial formula is, IMO, far healthier for a baby than whole cow's milk if human milk isnt' available (or mom needs to supplement for whatever reason.) I also don't want to say "formula is bad" because it implies that families who use it are somehow harming their children- in the majority of cases, I blame the medical professionals for failing to support breastfeeding, not the women who couldn't be successful without that support. Let's not forget the parents for whom breastfeeding isn't even an option- foster parents, certain medical reasons (such as a prior double mastectomy) etc.

Circ: I see absolutely no reason for routine medical circumcision. I also see religious circumcision as being perfectly valid. For me, "God said so" is a good enough reason to circumcise my son.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't know much about CIO...only have one child and I guess I knew better than to let him cry himself to sleep, let alone be placed in a lonely crib to do it.
I would have to vote:

CIO - CIRC - VAX - FORMULA


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## RosieTook (Sep 4, 2004)

I voted CIO...and then the rest:

Circ
Vax
Formula

This is an interesting thread...









CIO...abandonment, pure and simple...my heart cannot take this at all...how can you listen to that heartbroken cry...I don't understand









Circ...genital mutilation...it's horrible, but can be chalked up to ignorance, etc...still, pretty harsh though







:

Vax...nasty things...but people are uneducated, and are truly trying to do what's best









Formula...used with ignorance, but can truly be a lifesaver in some situations...it is not evil, simply overused and not understood.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

CIO and Circ are by far the worst, in my opinion...

I just can`t understand how people actually think it is worse to give a baby formula than to cut of a part of their penis...

Sorry, not my intention to be mean. It just don`t understand how formula in any way can be worse...


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## Indigomama (Dec 26, 2001)

I voted circumcision.......

I see cio and ff as being equal and next with vaccination being at the bottom.

Honestly, I don't necessarily think anything bad about cio or ff even though I have chosen not to do either. I've seen people use cio and ff in a manner that would be consistent with ap, and in a manner that is pure child abuse. I have a hard time giving either a blanket thumbs down though I would always strongly encourage anyone to not do either.

I think you can make very a very well educated informed decision about vaccination and come to the conclusion that vaxing your child is best. I also think you can come to a well educated informed decision that is the other way on the issue... so for me whether someone chooses to vaccinnate or not is really a non issue to me.

But circumcision... I don't understand how you can make an informed decision and choose to circumcise. I think most people who do circumcise aren't presented adequate facts or facts colored by our strong cultural bias towards circumcision.

But that's just my 02 cents.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

1 circ unreversible mutilation
2 cio reversible violence

The other 2 have nothing to do with AP IMO, many good parents do both and still are AP.Both of them are just a matter of personal choice.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Circ is at the top of my list. CIO is eecond, formula third and vaxing last.But I agree with the PP the last two really don't bother me at all.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I voted CIO as the worst, as I feel it causes serious psychological trauma that a child can not recover from after repeatedly screaming themselves to sleep. After that I would say formula feeding because of the mental and phsyical harm caused by not breastfeeding. Really, there's almost never a good reason for a child to not have breastmilk, whether their biological mother's or someone else's. And 97+% of moms are totally capable of BFing although from what FFers have to say it's only about 20%. Circing is third, as the lost body part is irreplaceable and they have a right to genital integrity. The fourth is vaxing which I think is dangerous but it's so rarely questioned in our society that many people have no idea they have a choice in the matter.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

My order was
Circ
CIO
Formula
Vax


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Circumcision - cosmetic surgery on a baby boy's genitals. 'Nuff said.
CIO - depending on the child, can be traumatic or not as big a deal. I think for some babes CIO is worse than circ, but for others it isn't.

Formula and vaccinations are not "bad." They are prodcuts that have a place. They can be abused/misused, and that is bad, but I would not categorically call them bad.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
The other 2 have nothing to do with AP IMO, many good parents do both and still are AP.Both of them are just a matter of personal choice.


I disagree. The use of formula is not, and should not be a personal choice. Not being able to, and not wanting to are two totally different things.


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
I just can`t understand how people actually think it is worse to give a baby formula than to cut of a part of their penis...

my thoughts exactly.

I also don't think that vax and formula are in the same ballpark as circ (or really even CIO for that matter).


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I voted circ.

5-10 minutes of slicing, clamping, and tearing on an infant's penis with little or no pain relief is sick and barbaric. I can't believe it's actually legal.

CIO - I know someone who did this with her 4 mo. who wouldn't sleep and was extremely cranky and irritable all day long. After two nights, the baby slept through the night and was alert, happy, and easygoing during the day. I also know it can simply be done for hours on end for parental convenience, and that's a horrible abuse.

Formula - some women can bf, some try and give up, others don't even try. One thing that makes formula "evil" is when moms act like bf'ing is gross and that there isn't anything all that special about breastmilk. THAT makes me want to uke.

Vax - I've been researching for a long time and I'm still kind of on the fence. I've stopped vax'ing for the time being, tho, and would never do shots like the flu, polio, chickenpox, that sort of thing.


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## Katie Bugs Mama (Feb 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
1 circ unreversible mutilation
2 cio reversible violence

The other 2 have nothing to do with AP IMO, many good parents do both and still are AP.Both of them are just a matter of personal choice.























Well said!























Circumcision is far and away the worst of these choices, with CIO second.

Vax'ing (or not) and FF are not even in the same league.


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## Unreal (Dec 15, 2002)

CIO
Vax
Circ
Formula

CIO (although I am kind of using CIO to stand for babywise here--ya know? It isn't just CIO, it is the whole lifestyle that I sterotypically associate with it) ranks #1 for me--just seems like it is making a long term decision to emotionally abandon your babe...

The others all have long lasting consequences, but can all result from ignorance...
CIO, it seems like it would only take 10 minutes to realize that it is mean and isn't going to be a good thing..to stick with it takes some serious determination....

eta: I put vax a smidgen above circ because vax is, again, a continued committment to something that is harming your babe.
I do think routine circ should be removed as an option (I wouldn't dare say illegal, as much as I disapprove there are those with religious beliefs for it, kwim?)
I think circ are harmful to our babes...but for me it, probably because I haven't researched it as much as Vax, is not associated with as many complications as vaccines are....


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I voted Circumcision, but I would have to say I think CIO is a very close second. The only difference to me is that not only does circumcision cause psychological harm- it robs the child of a body part that he or she cannot get back no matter how much therapy, etc they get. CIO is horrible to me as well though- but at least it doesn't involve mutilation!

Formula feeding and vaccination- I don't view these as "horrible" atrocities of parenting- but they definately aren't something I will do unless there is some serious medical reason that I cannot foresee


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## Lisalee2 (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
the worst would be circumcision, because it is GENITAL MUTILATION.









then CIO, for the emotional trauma.

and IMO you can't really compare vaxxes or formula to those two, because you can be a loving, compassionate ap-parent & use formula, or vax.









I agree. Circumcision is the worst. CIO is awful and I can't imagine what it may do to a child.


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Didn't get a chance to read everyone else's posts, but for me:

Worst: Circ (how can anyone excuse genital mutilation?!)
Then CIO (I do think this can depend on the baby and the amount of time.... no matter what I did, how long I held her, if I held her, how I held her.... she cried herself to sleep, sometimes in my arms, sometimes not. She slept faster if I left her alone.. I think many times she cried in my arms to be left the heck alone... but I couldn't stand it.)
Formula and Vax are kind of a tie for me... but it's the _uninformed "choice"_ that I think hurts the most - when a parent does either not fully understanding the whys, wherefores and risks involved.

IMHO...

lizzie


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
1 circ unreversible mutilation
2 cio reversible violence

.










I think if the wording were more correct i.e.: lying pharmaceutical companies in league with big brother govt. rather than *Vax*
lying corporations making huge money from convincing women they are too stupid to feed their own babies rather than: *formula*
and of course: pedophiles posing as doctors so they can get their jollies form torturing helpless baby boys rather than *circ*

sorry; all these things P*** me off so much. CIO I just don't get, but then I had to work so hard for the babies I have that I can't imagine why I'd leave them alone and unhappy when all they need is me...

FWIW, I was forced to vaccinate my babies by their guardian (adoption agency) and although I did try to induce lactation for my youngest, I was not successful and did use formula for both of my babies.
When I was 18 and had my oldest I also formula fed him till he was 2 months old at which time I switched him to cow's milk. He had already been eating cereal since he was 2 weeks old. I also put him in paper diapers and had him fully vaccinated (which was a total of 7 shots from birth to age 5)

when I knew better, I did better


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

This is obvious to me - circ is the worst of those you mentioned. Permanent, unnecessary, harmful, not the parents choice to make. Just wrong. I understand how some people think it is ok - but if they really researched it instead of just going with general public opinion, they would come to the same conclusion that we have.

CIO - there are different types of this as others have mentioned. To leave the child to cry and cry and cry is wrong. They may be sick or have their foot stuck or be cold or have a dirty diaper or any number of problems. But some babies get overtired and just need to fuss for a few minutes before settling down - I don't consider this to be the same thing as extended screaming.

I think selective and delayed schedule vaccination is ok. Still scares me but so does not vaxxing at all. I think everyone who does their research makes the right decision for them - even if it is different from what others may do. I do think four vaccines in one doctor visit is just way too much so I am willing to make multiple trips to space them out.

Formula - well, obviously we all know that breastfeeding is best and normal and should be done by all. But if a person has support and knowledge and tries but for whatever physical or emotional reasons can't (or can't fully and needs supplementation), I don't think formula is that bad.

OP, now that you have some replies, which one are you and your dh disagreeing on?


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

For me the first two are really close
1) CIO...
2) CIRC... urgh makes me sick and so sad

The only problem I have with FF is when it is a choice based on what is 'best' for mommy not for baby. ie.. vanity, lack of trying........
VAX... Well I vax, so that pretty much sums up that.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unreal*
... It isn't just CIO, it is the whole lifestyle that I sterotypically associate with it) ranks #1 for me--just seems like it is making a long term decision to emotionally abandon your babe...

The others all have long lasting consequences, but can all result from ignorance...
CIO, it seems like it would only take 10 minutes to realize that it is mean and isn't going to be a good thing..to stick with it takes some serious determination....

I might have put circ first, but I've not been circ'd and don't have any sons, so am lacking first-hand experience with that issue. I don't think my DH is bothered by the fact that his parents had his foreskin cut off, he didn't even know or understand why I was so dead set against it if either of our children had been boys. But I still remember crying myself to sleep, all alone, nearly every night, because I was not allowed to get in bed with my parents. I would never want to make my children feel that way!

I beleive CIO can cause lifelong emotional problems and trust issues, and it might be the main reason so many people in our society are insensitive and uncaring about others.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Honestly, I can't vote in a poll like this - it basically amounts to judging who among us is the greater sinner as a parent, completely out of context. There are some things on that list I would personally never do, and some that I have done. I don't know how this is helpful.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

I would NEVER CIO, but, if I had to rank these things, I would put vax first. I belive once you vax a child their bodies will never be the same again. You have introduced a whole host of toxins that should never be there and while they might seem fine, you will never know what those toxins have done to the child in the long term. Basically you have compromised their entire immune system and I have left them vunerable to a host of chronic, degenerative diseases.

Next I voted for circ, not because I don't think this is less important than vax'es, actually I would prefer to have them as equal first. IMO circumcision is violent and an unecessary mutilation of a child than is totally unjustified.

Next I put CIO. I would never do this, but I honestly don't think it causes lifelong pychological harm to a child. Children are very resiliant and if they are getting love and respect they are probably going to be fine in most cases.

Last I put FF. There is no getting away from it formula is not what nature intended a baby to eat and grow and thrive on. It is basically a chemical cocktail that is nutritious enough that a baby will grow if he/she consumes it.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:

I think if the wording were more correct i.e.: lying pharmaceutical companies in league with big brother govt. rather than *Vax*
lying corporations making huge money from convincing women they are too stupid to feed their own babies rather than: *formula*








This is exactly how I see it! I prob should've included that in the wording of the poll!

I didn't start this to try to judge one another, and I'm sorry mammastar2 if that is how you feel. I guess I think it's terrible the money and deceit that is involved in these- dr's pushing for them, not realizing you have a choice, being told you have to supplement due to slow growth, lack of available and affordable milk banks, so many people thinking your baby should be sleeping throught the night- ect ect. I guess that's where I think all these are wrong, and was wondering what was worse in that sense, as well as immediate and long term concequences of these *choices*- which aren't always choices for some!. I hope that makes sense?


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Hbbg

I was thinking....







.... by CIO do you mean ferberizing and letting a baby cry for 20 minutes or so, or gross maternal neglect where the child is rarely touched and left for on its own to cry for extended periods of time?

If it is the latter then yes, that would have (IMO) a gross impact on the development and growth of a child both physically and mentally, which is probably more detrimental than injecting with poisons and mutilation through circ.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Hbbg - thanks for the clarification! If the focus is on lack of respect for alternate viewpoints/independent thought/healthy choices, I agree that there is a common thread among all of your poll choices.

With that in mind, I don't have a problem identifying 'vaccination' as the 'worst.' There, there is a complete lack of respect among public health authorities and mainstream sources easily accessible by parents, for any type of independent thought/questioning, even when it comes to asking about vaxes without thimerosol, alternative vax schedules, etc. Also huge vilification of parents who don't vaccinate, which I don't think is faced to the same degree by parents who breastfeed, don't circumcise, or resist CIO.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

In terms of most harm over the longest period of time, I chose CIO. I think the pervasive feeling that you're abandoned every time you're in your crib is far more emotionally damaging than being fed with Similac, which I think is about one step above wallpaper paste, but at least it doesn't undermine your basic trust in humanity.

My personal ranking, from worst to least worst would be:

CIO
circumcision
formula
vaccination

I'm putting vax last because from what I have read, the research seems (at best) inconclusive about the dangers -- and it seems to have a great deal to do with one's basic genetic predispositions, which would suggest it's not all bad all the time.

I put circ second because hey -- regardless of whether it causes or prevents penile or cervical cancer, et cetera, I consider it to be a violation of another person's body, a permanent mutilation in which you've given them really no say at all. If a kid decides later he wants to be circ'd, that should truly be his decision.

Hope this helps.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hbbg*
sweetfeet is car seat safety a big concern where you live? I think it's very important but have never heard of anyone not using one?


I see kids all the time not in their car seats. Drives me crazy. I've stopped people and pleaded with them to use one.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetfeet*
Oh people use them but I think something like 70-95% are installed incorrectly depending on where you get the info. I think its abhorable. There are free seat checks and many parents don't read instruction manuals.







I was watching Dr. Phil this week and it was some marriage readiness tests and they had these 3 couples install carseats. Not one couple read the directions. Also Ohio's law sucks. Its only to 3 years and 40 pounds







After that you don't even get a ticket for backseat passengers being unbuckled. Just front seat.*shrugs*


Yikes. I think it was here that someone posted a HORRIFYING animated video of what happens when an unbuckled child gets in a front-end accident.

One word: headache.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

I voted for CIO. I think that circ is a close second. I'd put vax & formula feeding a far 3rd & 4th.

This is my personal opinion but I don't see where CIO is okay. I think that Ferberizing is wrong as well. I can respect circing for religious reasons but personally would even pass then. This would have been an issue for me personally but I have all girls.

As for vax, an informed choice is the one I support. I support anyone's informed choice on whether or not to vax.

Quote:

but it's the uninformed "choice" that I think hurts the most - when a parent does either not fully understanding the whys, wherefores and risks involved
I completely agree!

I have 3 formula fed children (they have medical problems, Bf was completely out of the question). Honestly, that does give me a biased opinion. It does bother me to hear of people who choose to FF with out even considering or trying to BF. I think that is wrong but not in the same league with CIO & circ.

I'd put car seat safety right behind circ. It's important for the older kids. I think most people know to put an infant in a car seat (I say most since I know there are people out there with no clue), but many don't realize that their preschoolers & school aged children need a seat as well. Thankfully, here in NJ, we have an 8 yrs or 80 lbs law. Even with that, you still get the idiots who just do what they like.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlzmommy00*
This is my personal opinion but I don't see where CIO is okay. I think that Ferberizing is wrong as well. I can respect circing for religious reasons but personally would even pass then. This would have been an issue for me personally but I have all girls.


I don't think I was implying CIO is okay and I too think Feberizing is wrong, wrong, wrong. I never did it with my children who all co-slept (5 year old is still in our bed). But I just don't see how, when a child is loved and cared for by attentive parents it is going to be scared for life by Feberizing. The human spirit is quite resilient. That doesn't make it right, no, but I just don't think it comes anywhere near the damage caused by vaccines and the unacceptable practice of circumcision. JMO.

I also agree car seat safety is "up there" too. Most misuse is ignorance on the part of the parents and the "it won't happen to us" syndrome.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

Quote:

I don't think I was implying CIO is okay and I too think Feberizing is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I don't think you did either. I was just stating my opinion as to the poll & then threw Ferber in there since I knew you'd asked about what others thought on that subject.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't think vax is that bad (OK I vax; I'm biased!







) but it was so hard to choose between circ, formula and CIO. And just for the record, I am talking about ELECTIVE formula feeding.

FORMULA: Causes death and illness to babies worldwide. BUT, not to all babies. Doesn't involve cutting off body parts, and not all ffers use CIO.

CIRC: Absolutely no reason ever ever ever for this! Completely pointless child abuse. BUT, there will most likely be no long-term complications the way there can be with not breastfeeding.

CIO: Very mean and wrong. Not a good way to begin a relationship. Disrespectful. Would be illegal if done to helpless adults. BUT, usually is not physically damaging the way circ and formula are (unless it's CIO done all night with newborns).

So I couldn't vote. I think they are all very wrong.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

bia

Quote:

So I couldn't vote. I think they are all very wrong.
I think I set it up so one could vote for more than one thing for this very reason!

About the cio q, I was thinking of that all day, and finally decided on how to respond, and I forget my wording









20 mins vs hours- I think that if you start at 20 mins, more than likely you will go much longer. Online I read about a mom doing cio for such a time when she did check on her ds, he would be covered in puke. One time she wrote how he cried for over 2.5 hrs staright w/out her checking on him... and when he did fall asleep, it was only 45 mins away from his scheduled wake up time, and she would not let him sleep longer or have extra naps........ I can't think of any other word to describe this than abuse. She was actually surprised he wasn't covered in puke.








I think w/any cio you are desenstizing yourself and emotionally damaging your child and destroying trust.
I think w/vax- the intentions are good- but the deceit lies w/the pharma companies and dr's, and the possible consequences are devestating. I did have a hard time choosing which came first, but felt that cio was abuse.


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## jenais (Oct 11, 2004)

I voted CIO.

I think the thing that bugs me most, as many previous posters have stated, (I like to be redundant!) is that parents make choices such as circ or vax without even thinking that they might have an option not to do either. And how the moms that I know who CIO (not many, thankfully), it goes against every fiber of their being to leave their baby screaming, but they don't listen to that intuition. That I don't understand at all.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Doing CIO for 20 minutes is just as bad as doing it for 2 hours.
I agree with Greeseball that Cir'ing is pointless child abuse.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

For me it's:

Circumcision (genital MUTILATION)
CIO (ignoring a baby's cries on a regular basis -- seriously detrimental)
Formula (smells like crap, not nearly as healthy as breastmilk)
Vaccines (many people think it's for their children's protection, so it's a decision many make out of care and concern for their children)


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## delighted.mama (Jan 29, 2003)

CIo has my vote as being #1.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I voted circ because it's irreversable. BUT, if by CIO you mean leaving a very young baby to cry night after night, then I would pick that. It can have very long lasting impacts. I was thinking CIO as "Ferberizing" style training of an older baby or toddler. Still pretty bad, but that would put it in second place for me.

Formula and vax would be 3rd and 4th, but in a totally different category, IMO, for reasons others have already stated here.


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

I was looking at the poll results and noticed 2 votes for 'none, they are all fine"


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

FYI-Circumcision is not irreversable. My brother is finally going through none surgical foreskin restoration.
I'm so mad that he even has to do this!!!
If his body had been left alone when he was a baby it would have saved him a lot of pain, anger and trouble.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

Hi hbbg...what are the polls saying?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilylove*
I was looking at the poll results and noticed 2 votes for 'none, they are all fine"



















not. at. MDC.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I do not really feel that they rank well for everyone/in general.

But for me:
1. CIO and Spanking too.
2. Vaxing
3. Formula Feeding
4. Circing


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Like many others I would rank them as:
CIO
Circ
Formula
Vax

Quote:

But I just don't see how, when a child is loved and cared for by attentive parents it is going to be scared for life by Feberizing.
I guess the thing is I don't think many people who adopt Babywise et al as a parenting style are giving lots of love and attention. I tend to agree that maybe crying for five minutes before you go to sleep wouldn't necessarily be a huge deal but it seems that it's so seldom that you see someone who in all other aspects is a wonderful APer but they CIO. It's like it's part and parcel of a mindset that the baby is trying to manipulate you, needs to fit into your life vs you adjusting your life to fit with the baby etc. My mom BFed but she did not mother through BFing as LLL puts it. It wasn't just the CIO it was all the other things but they just seem to be a package deal more often than not. That's why I'd rank CIO first.

Circing is horrible. I would not do it. I don't think other people should do it. I make sure I tell people that it's not considered medically necessary any more etc and I breathe a sigh of relief when some soggy I know is having a girl. But it is something that while horrible happens once. Yes it has a lifetime effect on his/her sexual pleasure and I think it is horrible but it is a one time thing. Many loving parents do this out of ignorance and I think still are wonderful parents to their kids. So for that reason it seems less damanging to the child as a person than CIO imho.

Now FFing and vaxing are on a whole different plane to me than the first two. I am annoyed most by the lack of educated choices. And yes FFing is necessary sometimes. I think it was far better for me to give my first two kids up for adoption and have them FFed by loving parents than kept by me and BFed. But I also agree with the person who said 97% of women can BF but if we listen to the stories it seems like it's the minority of women who don't have problems that *prevent* them from BFing. Obviously we have an issue with education and support here. And then of course there are those who don't even bother to try.

Vaxing I really think is a personal choice. I cringe when someone says "well my ped says she vaxed all her kids so its good enough for mine." I don't make any decisions about my child's health by what a doctor did. I must make my own educated decision. In my case that means not to vax but I'm well aware that there are all kinds of stuff that would tell you that you should vax and that the fabric of society depends on you vaxing. So I can see that someone could still make an educated choice to vax. By far that's way down on the list to me.


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## ankh (Feb 23, 2005)

I wouldn't want to scream myself to sleep every night, why should my Kids?


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:

I was looking at the poll results and noticed 2 votes for 'none, they are all fine"
Make that three!


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## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

1.)Circumcision
2.)CIO
3.)Formula Feeding
4.)Vaccination


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

CIO
formula
vax
circ


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Those of you who voted that they are all fine, I have to ask: Why?


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

I voted CIO
rank: CIO
circ
vax
formula


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

If I were to cast my vote as far as which of the four are the biggest lies (not which makes the 'worse' parent) pepetuated by the public:
I would say
Routine Infant Circ is 'no big deal'
Vaccinations are completely safe
Formula is close to breastmilk
Cry it out (alone, in crib) is 'needed'

The only thing I am completely against in an outspoken advocacy (ok, more zealot like) is RIC. That just pisses me off


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I voted Formula, but it was a toss-up between formula and CIO.

People seem to be using different criteria on "worst". Some seem to be using "worst morally to do to a child" criteria, some "more likely to produce adverse effects in a child" criteria.

My criteria was, which of the things is most likely to produce the worst, and most, adverse effects in a child? I think formula is the biggest culprit there.

I find it surprising and telling that many seemed to assume that the question was which was the worst MORALLY... seems like sort of a judgmental take on it to me.

My list would be :

formula/cio
circumcision

Vaccinations wouldn't even be on the list since I haven't seen any good evidence that vaccinations really cause adverse effects in a lot of children.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Vaccinations wouldn't even be on the list since I haven't seen any good evidence that vaccinations really cause adverse effects in a lot of children.

That's because there haven't been any long-term studies comparing non-vaxed children to vax-children. All the studies have been junk science comparing people who were vax'ed with one particular vaccine against another group vax'ed with something else, and of course these studies are paid for by those with an agenda to promote vaxes. It's true in the scheme of things only a small percentage of children have adverse reactions. Most effects of vaxing are not apparent until years later. By vaxing were are condeming our children to a lifetime of ill heath, including behaviorial and mental issues, chronic diseases, including cancer, allergies etc. I think that is pretty bad. Of course vaccinations aren't the only contributing factor, there's enviromental and other pharmaceutical chemicals, toxic food and water. Formula is bad for babies too, but the stuff they have in vaccines is much, much worse.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
That's because there haven't been any long-term studies comparing non-vaxed children to vax-children. All the studies have been junk science comparing people who were vax'ed with one particular vaccine against another group vax'ed with something else, and of course these studies are paid for by those with an agenda to promote vaxes. It's true in the scheme of things only a small percentage of children have adverse reactions. Most effects of vaxing are not apparent until years later. By vaxing were are condeming our children to a lifetime of ill heath, including behaviorial and mental issues, chronic diseases, including cancer, allergies etc. I think that is pretty bad. Of course vaccinations aren't the only contributing factor, there's enviromental and other pharmaceutical chemicals, toxic food and water. Formula is bad for babies too, but the stuff they have in vaccines is much, much worse.


If all of the long-term studies done are junk science, how do you miraculously know all of these long-term ill effects of vaccinations?


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
If all of the long-term studies done are junk science, how do you miraculously know all of these long-term ill effects of vaccinations?

Quite frankly I don't think it is miraculous that, despite the "wonders" of modern medicine we have more chronic disease than ever. More childhood cancers, autism has exploded, 20 million prescriptions of Ritalin, Adderall and other stimulants are prescribed each year, more and more children are suffering from autoimmune conditions like asthma excema, diabetes, MS, multiple food allergies the list goes on and on. Why? What has changed? Mass immunization and on a greater scale than ever.

You are more than welcome to vaccinate your children that is your choice. But for me I will not ever allow my children to injected with highly toxic neurotoxins I consider it child abuse.

Come over to the vaccine board and do some reading, it might be enlightening.

Long term vaccine studies or lack thereof Vaccine ingredients


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Quite frankly I don't think it is miraculous that, despite the "wonders" of modern medicine we have more chronic disease than ever. More childhood cancers, autism has exploded, 20 million prescriptions of Ritalin, Adderall and other stimulants are prescribed each year, more and more children are suffering from autoimmune conditions like asthma excema, diabetes, MS, multiple food allergies the list goes on and on. Why? What has changed? Mass immunization and on a greater scale than ever.

You are more than welcome to vaccinate your children that is your choice. But for me I will not ever allow my children to injected with highly toxic neurotoxins I consider it child abuse.

Come over to the vaccine board and do some reading, it might be enlightening.

Long term vaccine studies or lack thereof Vaccine ingredients

So, basically you have no studies of your own to show these things then?


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## Mama2Maddox (Mar 16, 2005)

i voted for CIO


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
So, basically you have no studies of your own to show these things then?











Are you looking for my personal empirical studies, or what? Maybe you can show me your _personal_ studies that prove vaccines are safe and effective. Quite frankly that would be miraculous because not even medical science has been able to do that.

Believe what you will, I guess if it doesn't hit you in the face it doesn't exist? What do you say we touch base in 40 or 50 years and you tell me how your vaxed children are doing health-wise. Any of them with diabetes, arthritis, cancer, depression, rheumatism, ulcers, allergies, MS, Lou Gehrig's disease, lupus, and Guillain-Barre syndrome, osteoporosis, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, and I will let you know how my vax-free children are doing.

Quote:

If those in power in this country were faced with a choice between the health of our children and $30 billion dollars, which would they choose? Or, to put it another way, if they suddenly found out to their satisfaction and beyond all doubt that vaccinations were not only ineffective, but were actually the cause of much disease and death, hypothetical situation, would they tell us? Would we be reading about it in the New York Times? Would vaccination suddenly stop, ...

When you were a child, who protected you?

THE SANCTITY OF HUMAN BLOOD: VACCINATION I$ NOT IMMUNIZATION

- Tim O'Shea

Sadly I wasn't protected from vaccines or vaccine damage as a child, but at least I can protect my children.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Any of them with diabetes, arthritis, cancer, depression, rheumatism, ulcers, allergies, MS, Lou Gehrig's disease, lupus, and Guillain-Barre syndrome, osteoporosis, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's,.

in all fairness, these things have no link to vaccines, and have been proven to be linked to other things, and your insinuation that they do weakens your argument considerably.

diabetes has been shown to be directly linked to diet and exercise (a sedentary lifestyle, particularly one high in refined sugars, contributes to diabetes, as do genetics)...

arthritis can have many causes some of which being very real physical issues (such as past injury) or a genetic predisposition...

cancer is, in many cases, linked to frame shift mutations caused by carcinogens in the environment or in the food being consumed. it can also be linked to the water (high pollution), electromagnetic fields generated by power lines in the area, or the air (high pollution from cars, or even from residual strontium-90 in the atmosphere as a result of nuclear testing)...

depression can be found in ANYONE, with any medical background, and can be physiological or caused by situational stress / circumstances (and if you're going to attack any root cause of depression, have it be our society that places so many unreasonable demands on children and families)...

ulcers are caused by a virus...

alzheimers can be prevented largely by eating well, keeping physically active, and continuing mental stimulation ~ reading, doing puzzles, doing math games, thinking about science... well, thinking in general. if you keep your neural pathways active, you have a much smaller chance of developing alzheimers.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
in all fairness, these things have no link to vaccines, and have been proven to be linked to other things, and your insinuation that they do weakens your argument considerably.

diabetes has been shown to be directly linked to diet and exercise (a sedentary lifestyle, particularly one high in refined sugars, contributes to diabetes, as do genetics)...

arthritis can have many causes some of which being very real physical issues (such as past injury) or a genetic predisposition...

cancer is, in many cases, linked to frame shift mutations caused by carcinogens in the environment or in the food being consumed. it can also be linked to the water (high pollution), electromagnetic fields generated by power lines in the area, or the air (high pollution from cars, or even from residual strontium-90 in the atmosphere as a result of nuclear testing)...

depression can be found in ANYONE, with any medical background, and can be physiological or caused by situational stress / circumstances (and if you're going to attack any root cause of depression, have it be our society that places so many unreasonable demands on children and families)...

ulcers are caused by a virus...

alzheimers can be prevented largely by eating well, keeping physically active, and continuing mental stimulation ~ reading, doing puzzles, doing math games, thinking about science... well, thinking in general. if you keep your neural pathways active, you have a much smaller chance of developing alzheimers.

But they are all IMO autoimmune diseases which can be triggered by the toxins in vaccines. If you read my previous post I mentioned other causes for the explosion in degenerative diseases in recent years. When you inject known neurotoxins and poisons in the the blood stream you are going to affect the immune system and it won't be for the better.

The Rubella vaccination has been linked to arthritis:

Quote:

The occurrence of arthralgia has been documented since the first studies about the rubella vaccination [1-10]. Based on these studies, the Institute of Medicine states: "The committee concludes that a causal connection exists between the RA*27/3 rubella vaccination strain and incidents of chronic arthritis in women." "Thompson et al. report in 1973 on eleven children with recurrent arthritis which lasted at least for 36 months after vaccination with HPV*77; other cases of potential arthritis have since then reported, some with the RA*27/3 strain." [12].
http://www.*********/a/quak.html#Long...20Consequences

As for ulcers only being caused by a virus, there is a strong connection between auto-immune diseases and dieases of the endocrine system, and the endocrine glands are not the only targets of auto-immune reactions. They can also affect the digestive tract causing stomach or duodenal ulcers and ulcerative colitis.

I was somewhat surprised you didn't mention aluminum as probable cause of Alzheimer's which even mainstream scientist acknowledges. So IYO there is no connection between the flu vaccine which our senior citizens line up for year after year, and the skyrocketing incidence of Alzheimer's? Quite honestly I think that is way more likely a culprit than our old people not doing puzzles, math games or reading enough books.

Quote:

"According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD (http://members.aol.com/nitrf), the world's leading immunogeneticist and 13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review journals), if an individual has had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had one, two or no shots. I asked Dr. Fudenberg why this was so and he said it was due to the mercury and aluminum that is in every flu shot (and most childhood shots).* The gradual mercury and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction.* Is that why Alzheimer's is expected to quadruple? Notes: Recorded from Dr. Fudenberg's speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA September, 1997.* Quoted with permission. Alzheimer's to quadruple statement is from John's Hopkins Newsletter Nov 1998."
I contend that depression can be caused by heavy metal poisoning. One of the symptoms of mercury poisoning is depression, as is anxiety, ODC and schizoid tendencies.

Anyway, the bottom line for me is, there are no benefits to vaccination whatsoever. I would no more inject neurotoxins and other poisons into my child's bloodstream than I would give them crack. So for me, vaccinations are the very worst thing, of the list, I could do to my children. That isn't to say the other three are okay, they most certainly are not (especially circ).

If you would like to discuss vaccinations further please join us over at the vaccine board.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*









Are you looking for my personal empirical studies, or what? Maybe you can show me your _personal_ studies that prove vaccines are safe and effective. Quite frankly that would be miraculous because not even medical science has been able to do that.


I never said that. What I said was :

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I haven't seen any good evidence that vaccinations really cause adverse effects in a lot of children.

If all of the long-term studies are junk science as you say, you have no more evidence for your point of view than scientists do for theirs.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
I was somewhat surprised you didn't mention aluminum as probable cause of Alzheimer's which even mainstream scientist acknowledges.

that's because mainstream science _doesn't_; it has been disproven multiple times. for one article, check out Aluminum in Alzheimer's disease. (Questions and Answers) - Raymond A. Dieter Jr.; R. ******* Mason; Richard W. Besdine., in JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association, Oct 20, 1993 v270 n15 p1868(1).

if anyone would like me to e-mail them some (peer-reviewed, scientific) articles about this, PM me w/ your e-mail address.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
I contend that depression can be caused by heavy metal poisoning.

you contend, or there is actually evidence for this occurring as a direct result of vaccination?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
If you would like to discuss vaccinations further please join us over at the vaccine board.

and this is you saying the discussion here is over.







i'm not going to join the vax board (again) because frankly IME almost nobody there is willing to listen to any opposing viewpoints or medical research.









i think what it comes down to is that it is a personal decision -- and while i have no problem with a person saying they refuse to vax based on their personal feeling, they can't really defend this position with any real science.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I voted:

Circ
Formula
CIO
Vax

I can't imagine placing vax ahead of formula because the (even long term) risks of formula are so much more well known than those of vaxs. Circumcision can never be "taken back" (even w/restoration). For CIO I am assuming of a non-newborn in a "non-abusive" manner.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Wow. This has been a really interesting thread.


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