# issue w/mil not disciplining niece



## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

My mil watches my niece 3 days a week while sil is in school. My son (20 months) and his cousin (15 months) are very close as they are only 5 months apart and live a few minutes away from eachother. The problem is, when my mil watches my niece she refuses to discipline her. Today my son asked to wear his bike helmet (he does this often LOL) so I put it on him and buckled the chin strap. My niece walked up and ripped it off his head, snapping his neck forward and making him cry. I ran over to console him while mil laughed and said (in a sing song happy go lucky voice) "no no baby you have to share". She took the helmet from her to give back to my son which led her to throw a small tantrum (we're talking 30 seconds of crying-nothing else) and guess what mil did? She said "okay okay fine" and gave it back to her!!! My son was just standing there holding his neck and whimpering while my niece paraded around the living room with his helmet on. I was floored. If the tables were turned, I would have said "you do not take your cousin's toys!" and put him in time-out. I sure the hell wouldn't have given him the toy to play with 10 seconds later! I was so mad, I blurted out "wow, she cried so you let her have her way" and mil replied "well sometimes that works for girls"!!! I am not blaming my niece for this. She was just behaving as any toddler would. But she's 15 months now, walking and talking and I think it's time that mil starts using some sort of discipline. I'm not saying she should be yelled at or spanked (I don't condoenm those things) but positive reinforcement for bad behavior?! My mil is a huge softie and loves to spoil her grandkids but this is where I draw the line. I would expect the same concern if it were my son being allowed to steal toys and hurt others without repercussion. I really don't know what to do about this, we had the same problem with her biting my son a few months ago. Mil did nothing and it continued for weeks. (DS bit my niece once and he never did that again). I'm really not sure what to do in this situation because besides the fact that mil doesn't "believe" in disciplining at this age, I think she's worried that since my niece isn't her daughter she's not supposed to. I'm thinking of talking to my sil about it since I know she wouldn't approve of what's been going on. (We never have this problem when she's home). But I don't know what to say. I don't want her to think I'm saying that my niece is a bully and I don't want my mil to be angry at me for going behind her back.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

15 months? No, I don't really think it's possible to "discipline" her. She should be redirected though.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

I have this same problem with my sister and my mom with my 3 yo nephew.







:


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

15 mos? I think your expectations are off.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm a little surprised by these responses. I knew most mamas here are into gentle discipline (as am I) _but no discipline at all for hurting another child and taking his toys_? I'm sorry but I just do not agree with that. If it were my son who did this at 15 months, I would definitely have intervened. At the very least, she shouldn't have allowed her to play with the toy. That is just ridiculous. I don't want my son to think that behavior is okay. I don't understand that kind of parenting at all.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

First, I think you can stand up for you son. I would have taken the helmet back. And that might not be popular around here, but I would have done it as gently as possible and traded it for something else.

Beyond that, your only long-term options are trying to convince MIL to do things differently, talking to SIL, or not having your child around them.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

This is really complicated. If it were the girls' mother, it would be easier. But so many of us really don't want/trust our relatives to discipline our children, maybe your MIL thinks that's what your SIL wants?

Seems to me that your MIL and SIL need to clarify expectations about how much and what sort of discipline MIL should do. Maybe you can encourage that conversation by suggesting that your SIL start a conversation about MIL about it?

If SIL has told MIL that she is not to discpline niece, then I think you are probably stuck because I'm sure you want your MIL to follow your and her directions about handling your respective children. In that case the best you are going to be able to do is be within arm's reach to protect your son. Given the tendencies of 2 toddlers, that's probably not a bad idea anyway.

Redirection is discipline, and that is about all that would be appropriate at 15 months. But if it had been me and my child, I would have give the helmet back to your son, explained (briefly) to girl that she had hurt boy, then directed girl to something else to play with, consoling if crying. But really, at 15 months thats about what you can do.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

While I don't agree with the lazzez faire (sp?) approach, I also don't agree with grandparents disciplining their grandchildren. This situation seems to be an exception since grandma is in a caregiver role. That being said, I don't feel your proposed solution was gentle.

"If the tables were turned, I would have said "you do not take your cousin's toys!" and put him in time-out."

The only difference between this and spanking is the hitting IMO. After tending to your son, why didn't *you* step in and work with the neice? She was obviously having a need go unmet. Did she need attention? Was she jealous? Did she miss her mom? Need to let off steam? You need to understand where she is coming from to understand how to guide her out.

I can *totally* see how your mama bear would be unleashed in such a situation, but now with the benefit of hindsight perhaps explore where you could have intervened.

My favorite GD books are Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves; Reespectful Parents, Respectful Kids; and Adventures in Gentle Discipline. These might help both you & MIL in the future.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Don't go to MIL's when the neice is there without her parents?


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## sungodis (Jun 18, 2006)

My son is 15 months and I would never allow him to do that to someone. He is old enough to be redirected to something else (which is a form of discipline in my mind). All the MIL did when she gave the toy to the girl after the crying fit was tell her that what she had done was OK. If it was me in your situation, I would have stepped in, explained that we don't take toys from our friend and had her give it back to the boy. I think it is remiss of your MIL to allow this to happen, so I would probably keep my kid away from the house while MIL was in charge.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Sure you can redirect a baby, but you don't expect a baby to understand a time out. A 15 mos old isn't thinking "Oh, I'm going to slam on my 20 mos old cousin". I would be really upset if my sister treated a baby that way. "You do not take your cousin's toys?" and then a time out? For an infant? I also dont like that the OP is figuring that the 15 mos is bully who needs to be taught a lesson-- she is being a baby. She didn't know her baby cousion was going to get hurt, either. She saw something cool and she reached for it. The end. Comfort the hurt child, redirect, say "Gentle touching', but don't get all crazy and punish a baby.

Geesh, peeps. Remember where you are posting.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

sadly, i have this same situation with my nephew who is 8 months younger than DD. he takes her toys, she panics, and grandparents laugh and say let it go on. SIL is there and says "give it back" but doesn't enforce it. i wound up taking away the toy. and seeing them less. sad.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacyann21* 
I'm a little surprised by these responses. I knew most mamas here are into gentle discipline (as am I) _but no discipline at all for hurting another child and taking his toys_? I'm sorry but I just do not agree with that. If it were my son who did this at 15 months, I would definitely have intervened. At the very least, she shouldn't have allowed her to play with the toy. That is just ridiculous. I don't want my son to think that behavior is okay. I don't understand that kind of parenting at all.

Redirection would have been intervening. You or MIL could have gone in and given niece a different toy, put the offending toy away, or figured out some way for them to play with it together, or to play together in some other way. Two babies together need a lot of interaction from adults while they're playing. But a time out at 15 months?! That would be crazy. All that would do is create another need unmet in niece and fuel the next inappropriate interaction. Do you really want a never-ending cycle of this?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

"Discipline" means "teach", not "punishment". There is no way to teach a baby to not take things from other babies. She's just too young. Punishment would only make the adults feel better. It would have no affect on her and would not make her learn to not take things from other babies.

Simply taking the helmet away and giving the niece something else to play with would have been fine. And gently, as the niece is simply acting like a 15-month-old. You can't expect babies to have social skills. At that age kids are usually very easily distracted with something else. If the helmet became a big deal I would have just put it up for a while and let the kids play with something else.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
While I don't agree with the lazzez faire (sp?) approach, *I also don't agree with grandparents disciplining their grandchildren*. This situation seems to be an exception since grandma is in a caregiver role. That being said, I don't feel your proposed solution was gentle.










Well, generally leaving your child with someone while you go somewhere else (work, out, whatever) gives the babysitter certain liberties which I'd assume would include discipline (obviously not spanking or anything but you can't just be like, "Here, watch my DD while I go to work/grocery store but if she does anything she shouldn't just let her do it because I don't want you disciplining her!" That wouldn't make sense.


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## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

Yup. Redirect, redirect, redirect. There is no malicious intent in a 15 mo. IMO punishment would be ridiculous. When I have playdates with other parents and their children and a similar situation happens, I might wait a moment to see if the other parent will intervene, but if they don't I have no problem taking the toy away from the child who took it (gently, of course) and giving it back to my DS, while giving the other child something else.

What would you have wanted your MIL to do? If you just wanted your DS to have the toy, would you not feel comfortable giving it to him yourself?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
Well, generally leaving your child with someone while you go somewhere else (work, out, whatever) gives the babysitter certain liberties which I'd assume would include discipline (obviously not spanking or anything but you can't just be like, "Here, watch my DD while I go to work/grocery store but if she does anything she shouldn't just let her do it because I don't want you disciplining her!" That wouldn't make sense.

Well, it depends. I allow regular caregivers to do a certain amount of very specific discipline, but ONLY within the guidelines I have set and very limited circumstances. For occasional sitters and, especially, relatives I would not permit anything more than "Please don't do that" and a redirect -- even for older children. For a toddler (sorry, 15 months is past infant or baby IMHO -- once they walk and talk they are toddlers) I would give very explicit directions about how I wanted common situations handled. But anyone giving a "timeout" that was unauthorized, yelling, shaming, hitting, or another punishment would result in no more babysitting by that person. People have too many different opinions of "appropriate discipline" and too many of them are things that I am uncomfortable with.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Probably your MIL just didn't want the baby getting upset on her watch. I can totally see my MIL doing this, she really wants her grandkids to enjoy their time with her and she is totally freaked about them crying. Also, could it be possible you are a little bit jealous/antagonistic towards the 15 month old? I just say that because I've sometimes felt like that before and I think it's normal. But maybe I'm immature!

Anyway, I would have just said, "Please give back the helmet," and helped the kids move on to a new activity.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
Well, generally leaving your child with someone while you go somewhere else (work, out, whatever) gives the babysitter certain liberties which I'd assume would include discipline (obviously not spanking or anything but you can't just be like, "Here, watch my DD while I go to work/grocery store but if she does anything she shouldn't just let her do it because I don't want you disciplining her!" That wouldn't make sense.

That's why I said it is slightly different b/c she was in a caregiver role. I still don't agree with caregiver's spanking or doing time outs. I worded my statement the way I did b/c recently I have seen my parents "discipline" my neices in such a way that would be entirely unacceptable if it were my son. For example, we were at dinner and 2.5yo DN wanted to sit with her mom. My brother (her dad) said no...I have no idea why...and my niece kept asking to sit with mommy. It made my brother mad so he took her outside the restaurant so she could "calm down." My dad went out to check on them and when they came back in he asked my DN (his granddaughter) if she had anything to say and made her apologize to everyone. I was horrified. 1st. She had nothing to apologize for. She wanted her mom. Period. 2nd. To shame her that way in front of everyone was terrible. This type of grandparent discipline is entirely unwelcome and not their place IMO. My brother and SIL didn't care, but if my dad attempted to do that to my DS we would have left. My parents also believe in spanking and time outs. So this is where I am coming from. I think a grandparent or caregiver should only be allowed to discipline according to the child's parent's instructions.

Phew.








I'm done now. Back to the regularly scheduled thread.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

really? you put your 20 month old in time out?


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

I also dont like that the OP is figuring that the 15 mos is bully who needs to be taught a lesson-- she is being a baby.








You are putting words into my mouth. I would never say that about my niece. I love her to death. In fact, I have argued with mil before because she frequently says things like, "Cady has a bully streak" etc. I don't appreciate her calling my niece names and I feel that her behavior has more to do with mil not disciplining her than with her personality. Any child could turn into a bully if they have no discipline whatsoever.

Quote:

Also, could it be possible you are a little bit jealous/antagonistic towards the 15 month old?
No, that's definitely not the case. Like I said, if it were my son (and it has been) I would intervene.

Quote:

All the MIL did when she gave the toy to the girl after the crying fit was tell her that what she had done was OK.
Exactly. The least she could have done was take the toy away and explain why what she did was wrong. Instead she rewarded her for hurting my son and taking his toy.

Quote:

really? you put your 20 month old in time out?
Yes, I believe it is a gentle and effective method of discipline and my son is very well-behaved because of it.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Sure you can redirect a baby, but you don't expect a baby to understand a time out. A 15 mos old isn't thinking "Oh, I'm going to slam on my 20 mos old cousin". I would be really upset if my sister treated a baby that way. "You do not take your cousin's toys?" and then a time out? For an infant? I also dont like that the OP is figuring that the 15 mos is bully who needs to be taught a lesson-- she is being a baby. She didn't know her baby cousion was going to get hurt, either. She saw something cool and she reached for it. The end. Comfort the hurt child, redirect, say "Gentle touching', but don't get all crazy and punish a baby.

Geesh, peeps. Remember where you are posting.

That,

I truly don't believe that a 15 month old can have malicious intent to hurt someone. I 100% don't think an infant deserves to be punished when they don't have the mental capacity to understand "If I tug on this neat hat, the strap will tighten and hurt Cousin." All they see is "Ooooh! HAT!" She should have been redirected and given something else since your DS was playing with the helmet "Niece, here play with this boat. Cousin was playing with the helmet first. In a little bit, if you ask nicely, I bet cousin will share the hat with you. Right now it is his turn."

At least that's what I do with my DS when he has playdates...if there is a REALLY neat toy that everyone wants they have 5 minutes and then switch. It works GREAT!

With a 15 month old she's libel to look at it for 45 seconds and grow bored with it.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
First, I think you can stand up for you son. I would have taken the helmet back. And that might not be popular around here, but I would have done it as gently as possible and traded it for something else.

Beyond that, your only long-term options are trying to convince MIL to do things differently, talking to SIL, or not having your child around them.

This is what I was thinking. You have the right to say "no, ds was playing with that and stand your ground. Your son seeing you stand up for him will do a lot towards his learning self respect as well as right from wrong. If he sees her getting away with it, he'll likely model her behavior.
She shouldn't be punished, but it sounds like your son was punished for being a boy or for being more easygoing. Not fair.

Lisa


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

1) 20 months is WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO YOUNG for a time-out. !!!!!! Are you serious????????

2) Your expectations are WAY off. A 15 month old doesn't have the capacity (neither does a 20 month old) to "learn" anything from either situation.

Ug.

I'm not anti-timeout. But at 20 months that is just unreasonable.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
1) 20 months is WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO YOUNG for a time-out. !!!!!! Are you serious????????

2) Your expectations are WAY off. A 15 month old doesn't have the capacity (neither does a 20 month old) to "learn" anything from either situation.

Ug.

I'm not anti-timeout. But at 20 months that is just unreasonable.

And the baby is question is only 15 mos. She 'took' the helmet from a 20 mos old.

It never ceases to amaze me what people expect from babies that are not their own.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
1) 20 months is WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO YOUNG for a time-out. !!!!!! Are you serious????????

DD is 19 months, and she knows what a TO is. Now we use TO as originally intended - a cooling off. We don't walk away and refuse to look at or speak to her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
2) Your expectations are WAY off. A 15 month old doesn't have the capacity (neither does a 20 month old) to "learn" anything from either situation.

This really underestimates children. My children at 15 and 20 months could learn from situations. I don't understand thinking children are too young to learn.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I cannot believe that people are advocating punishing a 15 mos old.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I cannot believe that people are advocating punishing a 15 mos old.

Agreed. I had to double-check which forum I was on.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

We've had similiar issues...not with my IL's, but with seemingly just about every other kid on the planet. In fact, my sweet dd was scared to make friends for a long time because just about every new kid she met was violent to her. Arg. It was SO annoying to me. Whether or not you think a little baby, infant, or toddler can "understand" situations, I think most people can agree you don't just let it go. You do or say SOMETHING. Like "gentle please" (as you hold their leg for a second to prevent further injury) in a sweet loving voice when your 6 month old accidentally (or not so accidentally) kicks you while you change his diaper. No, it's not angry, it's not punishment, it's just an explaination of what should and shouldn't be. That's discipline.

When something like the OP's post happens to my kids, first I model the words/actions they should take (and I speak for them, as them). I get down on the children's level and say, "That's my helmet and I was playing with it. May I have it back please?" And then I see what happens. If it doesn't go well, then, yes, I intervene. But I want my children to learn to speak for themselves. It's SO important to me to teach them what TO do in a given situation. (And by intervening I say something like, "Yes, I'm sorry, that's ds's special helmet. Would you like to see this?" and offer something else.) I don't take stuff out of other kid's hands, though. It just seems like now I'm being the bully when I do it by force. With one that young, too, I might say something like, "Ouch, it hurts to pull. Gentle, please!" IF I can't get the other kid to comply (and I don't spend forever trying, a minute or so....that's an eternity by kid terms), I redirect MY child and teach them to be the bigger person. I say, "Hey, ds, come with Mama to (and I think up something cool). We'll get your helmet in a minute." And I watch like a hawk for the kid to put it down and look away so I can swipe it back. Then I let my child privately enjoy their thing for a few minutes, then I put it away until the other child leaves. (by the way, I shorten my words drastically for littler kids, or toddlers. things like oops! that's ds's! this is for YOU! while gently taking helmet away and giving something else.) or to ds ("let's make baby happy. see, your helmet made baby happy. want a drink?"

that's just me. (c:


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

A 15 month old doesn't have the capacity (neither does a 20 month old) to "learn" anything from either situation.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. I know my son and my niece and I know they both have the capacity to learn from what happened and unfortunately they both did.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You might want think about your own relationship with your sister (or is it sil?). You might have issues with her, but they have nothing to do with either baby.

You are skipping over the fact that we are talking about *an infant*. A 15 mos old baby who reached for something that looked interesting to her. Period. You want her to be put in time -out/strongly disciplined, for acting like a baby. Check in with yourself on that.

You don't have to defend yourself here... Don't get mad and take your ball away. I am just saying if you have issues with those adults, deal with the adults, and let the baby be a baby. Redirect the baby, comfort, and get on with it. Don't make baby play issues a moutain when it is barely a mole hill.

And I agree that you can help the babies to learn-- but not by treating either of them harshly. You comfort, redirect, distract. You can give both babies what they need without resorting to anything age inappropriate or punishing.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacyann21* 
: Any child could turn into a bully if they have no discipline whatsoever.

Let's talk about that. What kind of discipline is appropriate for infants? By MDC standards, of course.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
DD is 19 months, and she knows what a TO is. Now we use TO as originally intended - a cooling off. We don't walk away and refuse to look at or speak to her.

We to will separate DD (21 months) from overwhelming situations. We will take her somewhere calm and give her a chance to calm down.

That's not what the OP is suggesting. She's suggesting a real - put the toddler in a cage and leave - time-out.

Quote:

This really underestimates children. My children at 15 and 20 months could learn from situations. I don't understand thinking children are too young to learn.
I will agree.

What I meant is that a 15 month old isn't going to be "ruined" for life from this one thing. I think that she's too young to learn that if she throws a fit she'll get her way.

I think that her emotions are still genuine and that she doesn't have the ability (at 15 months) to learn to manipulate people in a malicious way to become a 'bully'.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

like some other posters, i think it would be totally in bounds for you to have taken the helmet back, stuck up for your son and redirected your niece. just cause grandma doesn't want to cause any ruckus in her house doesn't mean the kids have to learn any "perpetrator/victim" roles. if she refuses to correct a situation, you should.

they are young, so yeah, redirection is about all you got. maybe some kind words about being careful and waiting for people to hand things to her, rather than taking them off their body.

that being said, i would never leave my son alone with g-ma while she was babysitting ANY other kids, just in case this was her default mode.


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## Paeta16 (Jul 24, 2007)

My daughter is 16 months old and in situations like that I tell her that it is nice to share and that whomever was playing with that toy and I hand the toy back to whomever and redirect DD. Sometimes she throws a fit and I just snuggle her or keep trying to find something that interests her...doesn't take much effort.

IMO 15 months is too young for a time out...they don't understand the concept. Although she may have hurt your son she didn't mean to do it she just wanted to "wear a hat" too?! Perhaps you could coach your MIL gently on how to redirect her granddaughter to save situations like this from popping up in the future. If my DD has something she shouldn't I usually ask her to give it to someone and that usually works. I wonder if your MIL had said "can you give the helmet to your cousin? He was playing with it" if that would have worked? Just a suggestion.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I cannot believe that people are advocating punishing a 15 mos old.

did something wacky happen b/c they are moving forums???

Just b/c a child can walk and talk and understand directions does not make them more mature then they can be. you can not time out your child into maturation.

discpline does not have to be equated with punish. We don't need to make one child better at the cost of another.

DN it hurts when you pull the helmet.
It is DS' turn.
you will get a turn when he takes it off.
Ooo look a puzzle! Let's play puzzle while we wait.

why do they HAVE to be punished? your nieces intent was not to hurt. It was not to be greedy.
Her brain is just not ready for the concpets of sharing..we talk about it but any preschool teacher or anyone who works with children will tell you that real shairng does not happen until a child can empathize. A 15 mos can not fully grasp this. It is a complicated process.

the playing together is called parallell play for a reason. They don't really interact. They are self absorbed. They don't full grasp of impulse control.

your child may still bite he might still hit...If you think time outs will stop all negative behavior ..I'll see you on the toddler when he turns 3









check out the naomi aldort book..it is a great read. Gentle discipline is the act of teaching children...it is not "doing nothing" It is the hardest and most rewarding way to parent children.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

DD is 18 months right now and loves to play with whatever someone else is playing with.. If she takes a toy another person is playing with Ill step in and return to toy to the original person. If I see that its going to cause someone to get injured or cause a scene between the children in the group Ill remove the toy and put it in a time out (the toy not the child. I don't do time outs with DD). If DD gets extremely upset Ill step into another room or away from the group until she calms down and then return. If she is overally upset and won't calm down we simply leave or suggest that maybe everyone come back when DD is up to playing again. Id never use time outs with her since I don't believe they would work. DD is still a BABY.. I don't expect her to act like anything else (and yes babies bite, hit, scratch, steal toys, etc because they don't have impluse control- that part of their brain isn't even developed yet and won't be for a couple more YEARS).

In the situation the OP is in I would just not go around when I know MIL was visiting DN. Save myself the heartache of being around that. As for MIL, maybe she doesn't know what type of discipline the SIL wants used and doesn't want to overstep her boundaries. I know the few times I left DD with MIL/FIL we talked about how to redirect her and what we do/don't do for discipline with her (DD was 15 months old at the time so it was all redirecting) that way they knew what type of discipline I used.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that your MIL did the right thing until she gave the helmet back. She was addressing the problem of grabbing the helmet at the baby's level while you comforted your child. The baby didn't deliberately hurt your son, she grabbed a toy she wanted because it looked neat, this is what babies do and you don't have to be harsh in order to teach them gentler ways. I do think that you should have taken the helmet back and I think you should talk to her about not reinforcing negative behaviors if she does something that affects her son. You might consider telling her that it is cute now when she is a baby and can't do much harm but if it becomes a habit that sticks with her until she is older she will hurt someone seriously. I don't think you should tell her she needs to be harder on a baby though. Time-outs are for older children who are out of control, late grade school or junior high age. If a baby takes something from another baby then going to them and telling the "it's not your turn, give it back" and then telling them "I'm going to help you give it back" works quite well to get the message across that we share in a gentle way. I also think that if a baby is crying they need a hug and reassurance but not necessarily what they are crying for.
Redirection and gentleness work quite well. I say this because I have a five year old who turned out to be a very gentle, caring, genorous, and loving child and she has been from the time she was a baby. I always attributed that to not using punitive techniques and over reacting when she did something that was normal for her age. I also didn't just let her do those things, but I found that by removing the toy and telling her we share and by not reinforcing negative behaviors I was able to be more effective than I would have been if I addressed the problem with only stern words and isolation. She has pretty much always been able to share and play gently with very few grabbing incidents so I find it strange that you would think that stern words and time-out are the only solution for having a gentle baby.
I also would like to point out that many babies this age are gentle no matter what the discipline style, especially if they scare easily and are worried to do things because of their parents reaction. In the third and fourth year they start to get used to the discipline style their parents use and push against it more and more as they get more confident with themselves and more sure of what they want. It is just to soon to tell if the time-out is really what is causing him to be gentle, it is more likely living in a household that doesn't model violence and not having much or any exposure to violence.


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## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

I think we need to be very careful about taking the credit for any of our children's desirable qualities. I am not saying that we are not large influences on our children, but they are not blank slates for us to make into what we want. If a child is gentle (at this point in their lives, I might add) it is impossible to know if our parenting style has much, if anything, to do with that. Some children are born with temperments which make them inclined towards gentleness, while some do not. (Like all other qualities.)

My DS1 (almost 4) has never been a hitter, grabber, biter or in any other way aggressive child. We are very into GD and have never done TOs or used any form of punitive discipline. I would love to say that because we have always been gentle with him and simply modelled gentleness, he is gentle, in reality, however, I think it is simply his nature. He is very sensitive and not at all an extrovert.

I have a friend who parents in a very similar way to my DH and I and her DS is the exact opposite to our DS. He is very physical and acts out physically all the time. Always has.

My DS2 is 10 mo and I bet that with the same parents using the same parenting style, he is going to be very different from DS1. We will all have different issues with different children. I just think that it is very dangerous to think that there is some sort of formula for creating a perfect (or perfectly behaved- which imo, is NOT the same thing!) person. Like some parenting equation x+y= z


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Hmmm, I would have intervened before MIL did. I would have said to MIL when she was giving the helmet back, "Ummm, no, she took that from ds. He was playing with it first" and then taken the helmet and given it to ds and then given something different to neice. That's the only thing different I would have done.

And yes, 15 months is too young for Time out...I'm thinking of my dd, who at 15 months was just a babbling baby who didn't even walk yet!


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## cosmos (Nov 22, 2001)

A 15 MO can definitely learn behavior and discipline. By giving a crying toddler what they want after having been told "no" and taking it away it is sending a clear and strong message that all they have to do is cry to get what they want.
The part that really disturbs me is how the 20 MO was hurt and all the focus went on giving the other child something to prevent her from crying. I would have even pointed that out to the 15 MO " look- theat hurts when you pull on ds's helmet! Ouch!"


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## sungodis (Jun 18, 2006)

I didn't notice any mention of a cage in the original post.







I often seperate my son from the situation if he is having trouble handling it. Whether I label it "time out" or "destressing time" or "cuddle with mommy while you calm down time" doesn't change what it is to him. Toddlers (15 months is NOT a baby IMO) sometimes need a break from situations before they can resume peaceful play. I think it is harsh to judge her based soley on the work she used, expecially since she didn't go into exactly what she meant by it since it wasn't really the point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
We to will separate DD (21 months) from overwhelming situations. We will take her somewhere calm and give her a chance to calm down.

That's not what the OP is suggesting. She's suggesting a real - put the toddler in a cage and leave - time-out.

I will agree.

What I meant is that a 15 month old isn't going to be "ruined" for life from this one thing. I think that she's too young to learn that if she throws a fit she'll get her way.

I think that her emotions are still genuine and that she doesn't have the ability (at 15 months) to learn to manipulate people in a malicious way to become a 'bully'.


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