# Benefits of Sunna circumcision



## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

I have a very good friend who is half Dutch half Egyptian. When my friend was fourteen, her mother took her to visit family in the Middle-East. During this vacation, she underwent the Sunna circumcision which about 97% of Egyptian girls undergo. Her father left all this to do with the clitoral hood to his wife. According to my friend her father had great reservations about the procedure but did not interfere. She tells me this in a very happy manner, as she is quite joyful her vulva does not look like "a rooster's comb". She touts the benefits for this sort of circumcision in a manner oddly analogous to the manner an American touts the benefits of male circumcision: fewer yeast infections, hygiene, and appearance.

Does anyone here have an internet link explaining the medical benefits of a Sunna circumcision?

Disclaimer: I'm not planning to circ myself. I am anti-circ regarding men or women. I'd simply like to compare the benefits of male circumcision to those of female circumcision, so that I may explain to some people that Americans view male circumcision in a very similar manner to how certain Islamic regions view female circumcision.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

What is a Sunna circumcision?


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Type I FGM


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lara vanÆsir*
Type I FGM

I imagine that means the clitoral hood only. Correct?

Christopher


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Islay*
I imagine that means the clitoral hood only. Correct?

Christopher

As a rule yes. However because I have come in contact with many women who have undergone Sunna circumcision, I've learned that in many cases the labia are also slimmed down. because the clitoris is not altered, it is still considered Type 1.

ETA: I pretty much have an idea about the benefits of Sunna circumcision, as I have worked abroad with many middle eastern doctors. However, I'd like to have it all in writing so I could use it to show someone here in Indiana about how Sunna circumcision is quite similar to male circumcision, and practically the same sort of justification is given for both. I'd find it myself, but my son and my daughter really aren't giving me much time to work with as the one is currently trying to tip over her bumbo-seat and the other is getting impatient waiting for his dinner and a diaper-change.


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm not trying to slam you , but I think that is sick, any circ on anyone for any stupid reason is just sick!!


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds*
I'm not trying to slam you , but I think that is sick, any circ on anyone for any stupid reason is just sick!!

Yes, I agree. Like I said I am anit-circ.


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lara vanÆsir*
Yes, I agree. Like I said I am anit-circ.

I know but just had to add my 2 cents


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

This is a post I composed previously for another board, that may be interesting/applicable here.

---

Each and every part of the human body is susceptible to problems, regardless of age or gender. No part of the body is "immune", from our tips of our toes to the top of our heads. Bacteria, viruses, fungus, cancer...even our own immune systems can be the culprit.

It seems obvious that removal of the foreskin would prevent foreskin problems. No foreskin, no problem...right? The same would be true of any part of our bodies not required to sustain life.

I wanted to share with you some problems that may affect a woman's labia. The list seems to be significantly longer than any list of potential foreskin problems I've ever encountered. It would seem that labia have an enormous potential to cause various problems throughout a woman's life. In a previous thread, someone asked, (paraphrasing here), "What have your labia done for you lately?"

A brief googling revealed a few functions:

The labia majora enclose and protect the protect the other parts of her genitalia lying between them.

The labia minora lubricate the skin around the genitals and provide bactericidal secretions to help protect against infections.
Interestingly, the labia seem to provide some of the same functions for women that the foreskin provides for men.

Based on this list of potential problems involving the labia, should labial removal at birth be considered an acceptable parental choice? I'd venture to guess no special clamping devices would even need to be developed. A simple hemostat could be used to achieve hemostatis of each labia before excision.

After all, labia are just "ugly", "useless", "flaps" of "excess skin" that "get in the way" during sex and are prone to all sorts of embarassing and painful problems. Many adult women are choosing to have their labia reduced or removed; if it was done when they were newborns, they would heal faster and wouldn't remember it. Besides, I've heard of girls being teased in the locker room for having unusually thick/large/long labia, and I wouldn't want any daugher of mine to go through that. To top it all of, my friend's sister got a yeast infection and said her labia burned and itched horribly! Better to remove them now, rather than later.

*NO LABIA, NO PROBLEM.*

No labia=no risk of labial adhesions.

No labia=no risk of smegma or bacteria being 'harbored' in the folds between bathing.

No labia=no risk of labial irritation from candida (yeast) infection.

No labia=no risk of Bartholin's gland cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of cyst of the canal of Nuck (processus vaginalis peritonei) of the labia.

No labia=no risk of of mucous (dysontogenetic) cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of skene's duct cysts of of the labia.

No labia=no risk of epidermal inclusion cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of furunculosis of the labia.

No labia=no risk off varicosities of the labia.

No labia=no risk of lentigo of the labia.

No labia=no risk of nevi of the labia.

No labia=no risk of seborrheic or hyperkeratosis labia.

No labia=no risk of fibroepithelial polyps (acrochordon) of the labia.

No labia=no risk of papillomatosis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of fibroma/fibromyoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hidradenoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of lipoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of dermatofibroma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hyper pigmentation of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvodynia affecting the labia. (Less vulva=less vulvar pain.)

No labia=no risk of HSV infection of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Crohn's disease of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Behçet's Disease of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial tears during intercourse or childbirth.

No labia=no risk of labial swelling after childbirth.

No labia=no risk of the labia 'getting in the way' of the penis and vaginal opening.

No labia=risk of of Vulvar Vestibulitis affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of Condyloma Acuminata of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Herpes lesions of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Syphilis sores on the labia.

No labia=no risk of primary irritant dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of allergic dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of seborrheic dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of psoriasis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hidradenitis suppurativa of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial Intertrigo.

No labia=no risk of excoriation of the labia.

No labia=no risk of of Paget's Disease of the labia. (may require vulvectomy)

No labia=no risk of fissuring of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Lichen Sclerosus of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Lichen Planus of the labia.

No labia=no risk of eczema of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Squamous Cell Hyperplasia of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvar Intraepithelial Neoplasm affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvar Neoplasm-Melanoma affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of basal cell carcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of verrucous carcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of sarcomas of the labia.

No labia= no risk of adenocarcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial pruritus.

No labia=no risk of HIV entering through tears, abrasion, or sores on the labia.

(Many of these found here and here.)[/quote]

Jen


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Wow! There are many possible benefits to FGM, aren't there? Puke.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture*

*NO LABIA, NO PROBLEM.*

No labia=no risk of labial adhesions.

No labia=no risk of smegma or bacteria being 'harbored' in the folds between bathing.

No labia=no risk of labial irritation from candida (yeast) infection.

No labia=no risk of Bartholin's gland cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of cyst of the canal of Nuck (processus vaginalis peritonei) of the labia.

No labia=no risk of of mucous (dysontogenetic) cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of skene's duct cysts of of the labia.

No labia=no risk of epidermal inclusion cysts of the labia.

No labia=no risk of furunculosis of the labia.

No labia=no risk off varicosities of the labia.

No labia=no risk of lentigo of the labia.

No labia=no risk of nevi of the labia.

No labia=no risk of seborrheic or hyperkeratosis labia.

No labia=no risk of fibroepithelial polyps (acrochordon) of the labia.

No labia=no risk of papillomatosis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of fibroma/fibromyoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hidradenoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of lipoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of dermatofibroma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hyper pigmentation of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvodynia affecting the labia. (Less vulva=less vulvar pain.)

No labia=no risk of HSV infection of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Crohn's disease of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Behçet's Disease of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial tears during intercourse or childbirth.

No labia=no risk of labial swelling after childbirth.

No labia=no risk of the labia 'getting in the way' of the penis and vaginal opening.

No labia=risk of of Vulvar Vestibulitis affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of Condyloma Acuminata of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Herpes lesions of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Syphilis sores on the labia.

No labia=no risk of primary irritant dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of allergic dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of seborrheic dermatitis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of psoriasis of the labia.

No labia=no risk of hidradenitis suppurativa of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial Intertrigo.

No labia=no risk of excoriation of the labia.

No labia=no risk of of Paget's Disease of the labia. (may require vulvectomy)

No labia=no risk of fissuring of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Lichen Sclerosus of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Lichen Planus of the labia.

No labia=no risk of eczema of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Squamous Cell Hyperplasia of the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvar Intraepithelial Neoplasm affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of Vulvar Neoplasm-Melanoma affecting the labia.

No labia=no risk of basal cell carcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of verrucous carcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of sarcomas of the labia.

No labia= no risk of adenocarcinoma of the labia.

No labia=no risk of labial pruritus.

No labia=no risk of HIV entering through tears, abrasion, or sores on the labia.

(Many of these found here and here.)


Hell yeah! Just say NO to labia, FGM for all


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

If you go that awful, awful circumfetish website Circlist and choose "Circ Instrument & Techniques", you'll see *ALL* about the Sunathrone method. I think this is what the OP means. I don't see much of a difference between that and the Plastibell method or the Tara Klamp method since all 3 use a plastic sleeve that kills (crushes) the foreskin to "fuse" the two sides toegether (the skin above and below the crush line).


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2006)

eeek I personally would not do this.. However as an adult if this is something that is chosen to be done by the person who it is going to happen to the so be it. i did not not circumsize my son not because i think he should always be intact. i did not do it because it is not mine to cut off. If he is 18 and decides he wants to be cut, so be it, it is his choice. I won;t even get my daughters ears peirced till she decides on her own.

As an adult making an informed decision weather to have a circumsizion ( I can;'t spell), of a boob job, or whatever It is their desision. This was done to a 14 year old, did she make the choice.?? It is hard to break traditions..And hard to break religious ideas even more......I had 3 friends in my hospital room when I had my son telling me I should have him circumsized. I was in tears telling them no. my husband took them out. I researched it, We decided agianst it. I do not regret the decision at all, if he wants it done he'll get it done....I just kind of rambled on and on but a message is in there somewhere


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
.I had 3 friends in my hospital room when I had my son telling me I should have him circumsized. I was in tears telling them no.

Those do not sound much like friends...

Quote:

I just kind of rambled on and on but a message is in there somewhere
I see your point! You did not just "Decide not to circumcise" you realised it was not even your decision to make and left your child intact so that he could make the decision.

I understand totally and I think what you did, despite being under such pressure from people who should have been supporting you, was totally admirable.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap*
If you go that awful, awful circumfetish website Circlist and choose "Circ Instrument & Techniques", you'll see *ALL* about the Sunathrone method. I think this is what the OP means. I don't see much of a difference between that and the Plastibell method or the Tara Klamp method since all 3 use a plastic sleeve that kills (crushes) the foreskin to "fuse" the two sides toegether (the skin above and below the crush line).

Sunathrone is another clamping/crushing method for male circ/RIC, you're absolutely right. However, the OP is clearly talking about FGM (type 1): " During this vacation, *she* underwent the Sunna circumcision which about 97% of Egyptian *girls* undergo."

Jen


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## honolula (Apr 11, 2005)

I just wash my vulva.







Works like a charm.

ETA: not having labia minora and a clitoral hood would make sex awfully painful.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

Wow, with all of those advantages, I must go get myself a sunna circumcion ASAP!

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honolula*
ETA: not having labia minora and a clitoral hood would make sex awfully painful.









Same goes for circumcision really...

I was pretty astounded when I realised that circumcised friends need to lube up, the idea of being forced to do that to fight friction sorta shocked me.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Many of my patients are East African/North African and have been circumcised (FGM). Some of them consider it an important cultural identifier and are quite attached to the practice. It's not something I'm in favor of (ditto male circumcision), but how can I honor this as their cultural practice? They don't consider themselves mutilated in any way, and I'm not an East/North African woman. Why do I have the right to question what for them is an intrinsic part of themselves?

Not trying to be a PITA, but trying to figure out how to navigate between cultures in a way that's respectful to both.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama*
Many of my patients are East African/North African and have been circumcised (FGM). Some of them consider it an important cultural identifier and are quite attached to the practice. It's not something I'm in favor of (ditto male circumcision), but how can I honor this as their cultural practice? They don't consider themselves mutilated in any way, and I'm not an East/North African woman. Why do I have the right to question what for them is an intrinsic part of themselves?

Not trying to be a PITA, but trying to figure out how to navigate between cultures in a way that's respectful to both.

Um...Can I be brutally honest?

You don't.

Sorry but relativism is a logically and ethically bankrupt school of thought. These women have had their consent robbed of them and wish to rob it of others and thus their culture is inferior to our own in that respect.

Really, it is that simple. If your culture tells you to deform the genitals of an unconsenting party, especially an innocent child's, and your culture is a bad one.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
These women have had their consent robbed of them and wish to rob it of others and thus their culture is inferior to our own in that respect.


I would ask if you were serious, but sadly I think you are.

Our own culture routinely "robs others of their consent" (for example, of the Iraqis to govern themselves, or, oh, say, all the circed boys in the US). How we could claim the moral high ground is beyond me.

Cultures can't be inferior to each other, unless you have some sort of direct line to universal truth of which I am unaware, and frankly, if it gives you that kind of self-satisfaction in the superiority of your culture, I'd rather avoid it altogether.

I'm looking for ways to honor the choices (remember? choice?) and self-perceptions of my new moms, not alienate them further from health care workers and the larger community.


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Quote:

Many of my patients are East African/North African and have been circumcised (FGM). Some of them consider it an important cultural identifier and are quite attached to the practice. It's not something I'm in favor of (ditto male circumcision), but how can I honor this as their cultural practice? They don't consider themselves mutilated in any way, and I'm not an East/North African woman. Why do I have the right to question what for them is an intrinsic part of themselves?
You have the right to question everything, whether it is an intrinsic part of your own culture, or an intrinsic part of an other's culture. People are not likely to see flaws in the ethical webbing that surrounds their culture as quickly as they see the flaws in an other's webbing. Often, scrutinizing flaws in an other one's culture leads to observing flaws in one's own culture. This is the whole basis behind the benefits of different cultures intermingling together, it's called enrichment.

Thank you *pdx.mothernurture* for that list. there were a few on there I never considered.

Lara


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Ok, 'inferior' ought to have been avoided (we certainly do the same thing in the US to boys, i'm not claiming 'superiority' of culture to anyone) but your post _was_ rather inflammatory on an anti-forced-genital mutilation forum.

I honor the parts of a culture worth honoring, & Revamp has it right on the relativity; bad is bad. I can love, enjoy, & respect much of cultures that incidentally do some horrific things, & I don't have to make peace with and 'honor' the horror. It's not all or nothing.

I will disagree & disagree loudly about human rights violations regardless of how inured the parent culture has become to them. Sometimes we need outsiders to help us take our blinders off.

If I'm doing something stupid or vicious as a matter of cultural course you do me no favors by refraining to mention it out of 'respect'. Respect is speaking to people from other cultures as though they were intelligent adults & could follow a logical argument.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

You know, it's not that African women haven't been told that FGM is dangerous and the many reasons (medical and other) for not doing it. It is, I feel, disrespectful of their intelligence to assume that telling them again will bring the light of Western civilization to them. I in no way condoned the practice, nor do I condone male circumcision. But looking for common ground with people with whom I share an intense experience shouldn't (I feel) require either that I agree with their cultural practices or that I try to browbeat them into agreeing with me. These are strong, able women, most of whom have refugeed from war conditions. This is to some of them an important element of their culture, a culture that is continually under assault by the larger American culture. I believe there must be a way to respect that culture in a way that also does not violate my personal beliefs about circumcision, whether male or female.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Yes, & in your job it would be tough to deal day-to-day.







I'm not sure how I'd deal with it other than be honest- not in a patronizing 'Western Civilization' way (I'm sure there is as much they could teach me), but I couldn't say I honored their practice.

I'd hope my willingness to go to bat for my Jewish sons would help my credibility- I wouldn't be coming at it from 'you, you savages to practice FGM, but of course my sons are circ'd, that's DIFFERENT."







And I have respect & honor them for the beautiful strong things of their culture, & for surviving- but I'll still argue that whatever they do to their genitalia voluntarily as adults in a non-religious despotic regime is their business; what has to stop is doing it to non-consenting minors (and no minor can consent to having their sexuality permanently altered without experiencing it the other way, imho.)

Honesty is integral to respect. Since you are obviously admiring of these women in general, I don't suppose they will catch a 'superior western' vibe from you, however you choose to express your views.


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## Katie Bugs Mama (Feb 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honolula*
ETA: not having labia minora and a clitoral hood would make sex awfully painful.









That's a large part of the point. If sex hurts, a woman is far less likely to engage in it outside of marriage (where she doesn't have a choice.)


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katie Bugs Mama*
That's a large part of the point. If sex hurts, a woman is far less likely to engage in it outside of marriage (where she doesn't have a choice.)

I don't believe sex for women who have undergone type 1 circumcision is necissarily painful. Their clitoris for one is less sensitive to passive contact. The purpose of the labia is easily subtituted with different positions and motions. Circumcised women probably believe sex must be painful for us, because we have a labia being tugged in and out if our SO penetrates too hastily at the wrong angle. I have also been told by a circumcised woman that sex must be less pleasurable for us, because our clitoris is not exposed, but tucked under a hood. - Oddly anologous to the arguement that intact men just jerk themselves off inside their foreskin duing intercourse -
Even educated Egyptains circumcise their daughters, not really due to modesty, but due to appearanc and hygiene. I'm not sure about the uneducated ones though.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama*
Many of my patients are East African/North African and have been circumcised (FGM). Some of them consider it an important cultural identifier and are quite attached to the practice. It's not something I'm in favor of (ditto male circumcision), but how can I honor this as their cultural practice? They don't consider themselves mutilated in any way, and I'm not an East/North African woman. Why do I have the right to question what for them is an intrinsic part of themselves?

Not trying to be a PITA, but trying to figure out how to navigate between cultures in a way that's respectful to both.

Female circumcision is not the be-all and end-all of their culture, any more than male circumcision is the be-all and end-all of American culture. You can honor those parts of their cultures and traditions that are interesting, life-affirming, celebratory, empowering, whatever - but still strongly yet gently condemn those parts of their culture that disempower women by taking their control over their OWN genitals away from them. Or force them into child marriages, deny them human and property rights, etc.

Just as I can be proud of certain elements of American culture -- the values of freedom of speech, personal liberty, civil rights, etc. even if we as a culture do not always live up to the high standards of these values -- without for a moment endorsing the strain of puritanical, anti-sexual pleasure fanaticism that led to the practice of routine infant circumcision. There are good and bad aspects to every culture and we don't have to accept the bad with the good.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama*
'm looking for ways to honor the choices (remember? choice?) and self-perceptions of my new moms, not alienate them further from health care workers and the larger community.

I don't see why you have to honor their choices to violate someone ELSE's body. Children are not their parents' property and their bodies should not be subject to the dictates of someone else's cosmetic and cultural (or even religious) preferences as to how their genitals should look.

I think it takes education and compassion, and I understand that it's not an easy position to be in, but their daughters deserve to make their OWN choices about their OWN bodies just as much as our sons do. Whether or not you choose to tackle this issue with your clients is up to you. You can understand why these women do what they do but you can also try to help them understand that many of their beliefs about women's genitals are not grounded in reality.

I think it is patronizing to assume that people aren't capable of rational thought and of learning new information, and that cultures aren't capable of changing and evolving. If we were so worried about respecting the culture of circing Americans who honestly and deeply and sincerely believe that the foreskin is dirty and dangerous, then we wouldn't be here advocating for baby boys. It is possible to respectfully present new information for people to take into consideration in determining whether to follow their traditions or diverge from them.

At bottom, I do believe that parents want what's best for their children and that they need to be empowered with information to make better decisions, especially when it comes to their children's lives and health. So for example I think that as lactivists we need to find ways to educate people in other cultures on the value of colostrum so that they won't endanger their babies' lives by holding to old cultural traditions that claim that colostrum is dangerous and babies should drink traditional herbal concoctions during the earliest days after birth. We don't have to condemn their entire culture to recognize that certain cultural beliefs are affirmatively harmful to their children. It's the same with circumcision IMO.

Sorry so long!


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama*
I would ask if you were serious, but sadly I think you are.

Our own culture routinely "robs others of their consent" (for example, of the Iraqis to govern themselves, or, oh, say, all the circed boys in the US). How we could claim the moral high ground is beyond me.

Cultures can't be inferior to each other, unless you have some sort of direct line to universal truth of which I am unaware, and frankly, if it gives you that kind of self-satisfaction in the superiority of your culture, I'd rather avoid it altogether.

I'm looking for ways to honor the choices (remember? choice?) and self-perceptions of my new moms, not alienate them further from health care workers and the larger community.

Actually I live in the UK, RIC is non-existant here.

As for inferiority if you look at my post you might note that I did not state it as overall general superiority which mine held over theirs, just in that specific area. You must admit that not forcing circumcision on young girls is diabolical and it blatantly defies their rights, therefore in that area their culture is worse than ours.

I do not feel smug or satisfied because of that fact but it clearly is the truth.

And sometimes that hurts, those mother have made an awful, awful choice that was not theirs to make. Sugar the pill if you must but that fact remains true.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

You were including me in your statement about "our" superior culture. Sadly, a lot of the cultural imperialism we're so good at in the US is shared with English culture.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama*
You were including me in your statement about "our" superior culture. Sadly, a lot of the cultural imperialism we're so good at in the US is shared with English culture.

I am now finding it impossible to keep track of the things I have said so you are probably right there.

I suppose I still could have meant that you are superior in that sense because the US does not circumcise girls whereas such cultures circumcise both boys and girls thus meaning you are better but still lacking in that area.

But the point of the matter is that relativism is atrocious and not a sound foundation for an argument.

P.S. We used to be fantastic at imperialism! Both of the cultural and military variety. In fact far too good, I recall that in India prior to our arrival they had no history of homophobia but when we left they were even _worse_ than us (and still are btw) because they were trying to impress us initially and then it just sort of caught on.

We were so good that we could even export hatred...

Basically the British Empire was one of the best and worst things that ever happened to the world.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

There are no medical benefits for sunna circ except perhaps in the mind of those who are cut. From an early age children(in countries where children are cut) are taught this is an important thing to do for various reasons.Many children practically beg for it to be done.They don't know better at that point. My dh comes from a country like that.Total brain wash.


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## SkyDweller (Mar 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lara vanÆsir*
&#8230; I'd simply like to compare the benefits of male circumcision to those of female circumcision, so that I may explain to some people that Americans view male circumcision in a very similar manner to how certain Islamic regions view female circumcision.

Lara, thankyou! Such irony. I'll be sharing this with a young mother whose best friend is a nurse and thinks it is much cleaner and healthier.

Marlan


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## SkyDweller (Mar 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Ok, 'inferior' ought to have been avoided (we certainly do the same thing in the US to boys, i'm not claiming 'superiority' of culture to anyone) but your post _was_ rather inflammatory on an anti-forced-genital mutilation forum.

Inflammatory? I guess I must have missed something. I didn't catch that at all.

Eric


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## SkyDweller (Mar 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture*

I wanted to share with you some problems that may affect a woman's labia. The list seems to be significantly longer than any list of potential foreskin problems I've ever encountered. It would seem that labia have an enormous potential to cause various problems throughout a woman's life.

Jen

Jen, GREAT piece!! I will be sending this immediately (hope that's ok w. you?) to a friend of mine whose hubby is anti-circ (after he and I 'talked'), but she is unconvinced because her best friend is a nurse and obviously an expert in any and all medical issues.









And of course as a guy, I could *totally* see the benefits you describe and want my wife and daughters to look 'nicer' and function 'better' down there.

NOT

Eric


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## SkyDweller (Mar 1, 2006)

Many thanks to you, Lara, for sharing about Sunna FGM and PDX, your list of reasons to circ labia. I've been working on my associate's wife for about two months so far. She's got a nurse-friend who has made her very resistant to 'intact'. Even then, she's reluctantly allowed her DH to make the decision (he's anti-circ after our many discussions). But finally this afternoon after I emailed her what you both wrote, here's what she said,

_I've never heard of that kind of circumcision before. I see your point. It seems just as pointless to circumcise a boy as it is a girl._

That's huge --thanks so much.










Eric


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture*
This is a post I composed previously for another board, that may be interesting/applicable here.

I stole your post for my lj.... I'm going to see if anyone can guess where I found it (I like giving challenges) and then will give you complete credit







Let me know if that's not okay with you and I will take it down, but I think it'll do some good for some of those who read my livejournal!

love and peace.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SkyDweller*
Many thanks to you, Lara, for sharing about Sunna FGM and PDX, your list of reasons to circ labia. I've been working on my associate's wife for about two months so far. She's got a nurse-friend who has made her very resistant to 'intact'. Even then, she's reluctantly allowed her DH to make the decision (he's anti-circ after our many discussions). But finally this afternoon after I emailed her what you both wrote, here's what she said,

_I've never heard of that kind of circumcision before. I see your point. It seems just as pointless to circumcise a boy as it is a girl._

That's huge --thanks so much.










AWESOME!

Well done to Jen and Eric!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SkyDweller*
Inflammatory? I guess I must have missed something. I didn't catch that at all.

Eric

'Honoring their choice'. Is 'provocative' better?







(Closer to what I meant, anyway.) Circumcision is not a parental or societal 'choice' on behalf of other people we tend to 'honor' here. Quirky made that point much better than I.

Hope that is clearer.


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)




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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Mamamax, you are face to face with patients with whom you must interact. You need to keep not only their confidence in your ability to care for them but also your desire to do so. They must trust you.

I understand your dilemma.

In your position, I think I would first gently change the subject if possible. This would be perceived as a neutral response... and my relationship with the patient would not be compromised.

If, however, the patient is clearly looking for approval then I would clearly have to 'bite the bullet'. The patient's demeanour, the circumstances at the time, and so on, would all play a part in my response, but in general terms I would try something along the lines of:

"Every country has its culture and traditions. Mine are not the same as yours and I would never wish circumcision for myself or my daughters, but if you are honestly happy with what was done to you then who am I to tell you differently? You have no wish to change it, even if you could."

I would then look for any redeeming factors in her nature - her personality, her character - and speak glowingly and sincerely about these. Following this, if she questioned me about my own beliefs I would be free to talk about them and, depending upon her reactions, suggest she might reconsider her position regarding a daughter of hers.

This is all very general and conditional, of course, but every one of us have met with occasions where our views don't match another's. Sometimes we are compelled to offer an opposing standpoint... and each of us has our own, unique way of doing this.









Christopher


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Honesty is integral to respect. Since you are obviously admiring of these women in general, I don't suppose they will catch a 'superior western' vibe from you, however you choose to express your views.









Nicely put, TigerTail.

Christopher


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Why honey, I was just thinking the same think about your post.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:

I just wash my vulva. Works like a charm
.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Why oh why did I got to that digusting site. <puke>


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Why honey, I was just thinking the same think about your post.









Well... there we are.










Christopher


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