# Husband vs. Wife



## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

I am due with my third baby in late January. I dont know if its a boy or a girl. I have two girls already. I am already considering if its a boy and the question of whether to circumcise or not. I am a RN and about a month or two ago i assisted a pediatrician with a circ on a baby. Since I had never done that before I took that as possibly a sign that I should be getting prepared for this event. This particular baby seemed to do fine under the circumstances. My job was to sooth him with sugar water on a paci and he seemed to sleep most of the time, with the exception of a couple squeeks.

Since I have been researching and after a talk with my pediatrician recently, he said it is now considered a "cosmetic procedure" and he seemed to not be in support of it, although he will perform it. From all I've heard, this seems to be the consensus.

My husband is adamant(sp?) about about having it done, if it is a boy. He states many reasons, but probably most importantly because he wants his boy to look like him and the boy to know he looks like Daddy. Other reasons are biblical ones and also he states higher risk for infection, which I know isn't true.

We even got in a fight last night where he started swearing when i told him I was the one who had to consent to it, and I wouldn't. THat really set him off, because he feels like he has no control and no say over his own children. I can imagine how that sucks.

I have been crying when i think about it. If it were only up to me, I would not get it done for sure.

I feel like my choice is 1) Refuse to get it done and risk further negative feelings between my husband and me. I have heard this can risk marriages. I dont want that. or 2)Get it done, cry and cry and try to pretend it never happened and make myself think it is ok.

Husband says it is temporary- the pain, the healing.

I have gut feelings about my children and I always follow them, but I dont want to alienate and lose my husband. I guess this has a lot to do with our relationship and the fact that he feels left out and feels like he doesn't have any control with me. I do almost all the child rearing and decision making re: the children. I am the one who does all the research.

Bottom line, its like a gamble. Lose my husband-I dont know if literally (that wouldn't work for the benefit of the child!!!!!!), but at least more of his respect for me, or put my child under the knife for no good reason- just to please my husband. Again, I dont even know if it is a boy, but there is a 50/50 chance.

Long story, I could go on and on.

Do any of you have any practical advice for me.

Is there anyone on this site who has circumcised their son in the same situation and everything turned out ok???

Thanks.


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Take time to watch a few Youtube videos on the procedure. It isn't always as calm an experience as you witnessed. Research shows quiet babies sometimes go into shock from the pain. Try not to fight with your husband over it...approach it more as a learning experience for both of you. Agree to look into it with him and consider both sides.

I seriously doubt that you or he will be willing to cut your baby after thoroughly examining both sides.


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

also watch "cut" the film at www.cutthefilm.com
that certainly changed my mind


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## treegardner (May 28, 2009)

If your husband is that serious about wanting it done, then I think he needs to do some more research and get all the facts. Once you both have done your research you can come together and make an informed decision.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
Husband says it is temporary- the pain, the healing.

As my husband and I are on the same side on this subject I don't have a lot of advice in that arena-- but I wanted to address the above.

Being circumsised is not just a question of temporary pain; even in circumstances where there are not complications.

I don't want to get in to to many tmi details, but the foreskin *does* serve a purpose. foreskins are fun! Being circed decreases sexual feeling and function. I think I read somewhere that's why they were started, to discourage self pleasuring. Anyways-- being circed shortchanges your son for a lifetime-- it's not just a temporary decison. As mama's, don't we want our kiddos to have the best of everything (even if it means that it's better than what we have now?)


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Your dh is a grown man he will get over it. Your ds depends on you to protect him from harm and that is what would be happening. He would loose a valuable part of his anatomy just so your dh wouldnt pout? My dh wanted it done but ds is intact and dh is over it now for the most part.

Woman are given the opportunity to feel sex as it should be men deserve the same opportunity.

About the boy looking like the dad ask your dh how often he compared his penis to his dad's. I would bet he didnt see him much if any.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Just because the baby during the circ you watched seemed to be sleeping doesn't mean he wasn't in pain.

The fact that he slept through it tells me that he was most likely in shock. When a baby is in pain they go to sleep.

From Dr. Sears:http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t101500.asp#T101504

Quote:

The myth that newborns do not feel pain came from the observation that newborns sometimes withdraw into a deep sleep toward the end of the operation. This does not mean that they do not feel pain. Falling into a deep sleep is a retreat mechanism, a withdrawal reaction as a consequence of overwhelming pain. Not only does circumcision cause pain in the penis, the rest of the newborn's overall physiology is upset. During unanesthetized circumcision, stress hormones rise, the heart rate speeds, and valuable blood oxygen diminishes.


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Before you make your decision, I hope that you will read this thread. http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1158645

This is by a mother who was in a similar situation to the one you are in. Please remember that this is real surgery and that there is a real potential for complications.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

What if you take yourselves out of the equation and let your son decide when he grows up? It is, after all, his genitalia.
I never understood why some fathers are adament about surgically reducing the size of their infant son's penis.
And he won't look exactly like dad anyway because he's half you


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## SwanMom (Jan 4, 2007)

about "looking like Daddy"

An adult penis will always look different. And they're probably not going to be comparing genitalia once the son is older. I have two sons: one cut, the other intact. They are 6 & 3. They regularly take baths together and have never asked me why their penises are different. I don't know if they've even noticed. To them, a penis is a penis, and they chalk up any differences to them being individuals (just like one has blond hair, the other brown).


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
And he won't look exactly like dad anyway because he's half you










Quote:


Originally Posted by *SwanMom* 
about "looking like Daddy"

An adult penis will always look different. And they're probably not going to be comparing genitalia once the son is older.

Pointing out the above obvious facts to the dad will not help. Because it isn't really about how the son's penis ends up looking. It's about the dad KNOWING that the son IS circumcised, even if he never once even changes a diaper or for any other reason ever sees the son's penis or the son never ever sees the father's penis. *It is the dad's desperate attempt to justify his own circumcision by having it done to his son.* Circumcising the son "proves" that circumcision is right and good and therefore that Dad's penis is good. Not circumcising the boy makes Dad think there could maybe be something wrong with circumcision - that he could be missing something. (and sadly, he is. But who would want to face that knowledge head-on?)
In other words, it is all about the man's issues. And his issues are his problem. You can't go around hurting your kids just to make yourself feel good about what was done to you in the past.

As for the baloney about feeling left out of all the decisions on child care, and just wanting this "one" thing to be "theirs"? Absolute BS and you should call them on it. First of all, if the wife is doing all the research, then why isn't the husband? Is anything stopping him from researching child care issues? No, he is simply letting his wife do all the work. Secondly, once presented with the research, most guys agree that their wife's decisions are right anyway (on the breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc..) So if they are perfectly happy to sit back and let the wife do all the research, and happy to go along with her well-researched decisions, then why all of a sudden the "oh poor me, I never get to have any say in raising our children..." card? Because it is emotional blackmail, that is why, just a ploy to try to get the wife to let him take a knife to a baby's penis (because he feels a primal compulsion to do this in order to protect his own ego.) If you don't believe me that the "You get to make all the decisions, all I want is this one little thing" argument is baloney, then try turning it around on him. Say, "okay, fine. From here on out you make every single decision there is. It is all up to you. I will be the perfectly submissive wife. You are the husband, you are the king. The kids will be fed what and how and when you decide, they'll get the vaccinations you feel are appropriate, they'll sleep where and on what schedule you decide, you decide if they get pacifiers or not, go in a sling or a stroller, where they go to school, how we will discipline, whether they go to daycare or have a stay at home parent or nanny, and so on. You can make EVERY decision in their whole entire childhood and I will go along with it. EXCEPT we leave the foreskin alone." Think any guys will take their wives up on the offer? I think not, because the real point of the argument is not that they want more clout on all the other decisions, it is because they just want to get the kid circumcised.
"Who, me, issues? No, I don't have any issues! I just really, really need to cut off part of my son's penis! Now just _let_ me, already!"

Good luck, op!

Jen


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Make it less about you and DH and more about your son. Whose body is it? Your son's. Whose penis is it? Your son's. Who is the one who will be using the penis for the rest of his life? Your son. Who should get to decide what it looks like and how it functions? Your son.

If you make it about YOUR SON and HIS BODY and HIS DECISION, rather than a battle of who is right and who is wrong, it'll likely go over better, because that way your hubby won't feel like you don't support him or like his body as it is.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 

Do any of you have any practical advice for me.


I'm so sorry you are going through this difficult time with your husband over all of this. It sounds stressful, especially for a pregnant mama.
Simply speaking, it shouldn't be a matter of if you or your husband "win" or "lose" this argument. If the child, the owner of the penis, doesn't get a choice, that child is the one who loses. So leaving him intact and allowing him the choice of cosmetic surgery when he's old enough if he wants it (chances are high he will not) is the only outcome that will allow anyone to win.
It's highly possible your husband feels insecure or has some psychological issues with his own circ or any possibility of his son looking different than him. My husband is circed but our son is not. It's NEVER been an issue. For starters, they don't sit around comparing genitals. And as others have said, there is the whole pubic hair and size issue that makes them different anyway. How will your dh feel if your son is born with only one testicle? Or different hair color? Please read this link (it's for you to read, not your dh) and maybe it will help you understand your dh's insecurity:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

You asked:

Quote:

Is there anyone on this site who has circumcised their son in the same situation and everything turned out ok???
What I can say is we have pages and pages of moms who did circ their sons but later regretted it. Please read this thread for more info:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410

If your nursing school was anything like mine, it never taught the value and biological function of the foreskin. But it does have a legitimate function and there is importance in keeping it.
I don't think we are allowed to link to anything about it (due to the sexual nature of it), but you can google "foreskin function".

I truly don't think you refusing to circ your son will destroy your marriage. Most men just need some time to digest the idea of their son being intact and different from them (and to digest what was done to their own body). Many men even become intactivist after having an intact son. Somewhere on here is a thread where some mamas talk about their partners feelings and disagreements. A few mamas said their partners were not happy with leaving the baby intact but it didn't cause a marital strain and certainly not a divorce. But most dads become very accepting and it becomes a moot point.

And when your dh says the pain of circ is temporary, he's only partially correct. If everything goes smoothly, chances are high he'll be healed with 7 - 10 days. But often circs get botched and require additional surgery, or blood transfusions. Sometimes meatal stenosis occurs. Sometimes boys grown into men with painful erections due to a bad circ. And then there could be psychological stress that some men have over their circs. Maybe your son will have some of these issues, maybe he won't. But is it worth it to take that chance over a non-medically necessary procedure?

Please don't circumcise your son.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

The way I figure, intact is the "default" state. HE needs to do research on why a boy should be circumcised. Read the studies, learn about the procedure. 80-90% of boys worldwide are NOT circ'd. About 50% in most of the US. The first generation of dads to get their baby boys cut didn't worry about their sons "matching" penises. There is a pretty good chance that your husband's father or grandfather was intact.
I understand a man feeling a lack of control in his family life, but the more he learns about circ' the more he will hopefully realize that this is an area he needs to let his SON control!


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

You have gotten a lot of good replies, and I won't simply repeat them. But I will add a few thoughts. First, here is something that you and he can read:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

It has references, so can be a good starting point for more discussion.

Second, he is using fear and irrational arguments. Keep trying to move back to rational decision making, rather than fear based arguments.

And you will be more successful at moving the discussion form fear based arguments to informed decision making by keeping that full set of issues on the table. When people are afraid, they focus on only one issue and let that overwhelm them.

Instead, make sure that all the advantages and disadvantages of either choice get included in the discussion. Sometime writing it down on paper is helpful. For instance:

Circumcise him:

Advantages:

He will be amputated like his dad.

He will have some very small decrease in UTIs, though even if he were intact, his chance of UTIs would be well below that of girls.

If his condom breaks, or he chooses to use unsafe sexual practices, he will have to have more encounters with HIV positive females in order to contract HIV.

Disadvantages:

Intense pain during the procedure, with some research suggesting that the pain could have long lasting effects. At a minimum, it seems well documented to interfere with breast feeding, bonding, and pain thresholds in his early years.

Risk of infection.

Risk of complications. There are many, and some cannot be known until he reaches puberty or later.

You will be taking away his options. While he can always be circumcised when he is older, he cannot save his foreskin and reattach it later if he finds that is his preference. And the results are likely to be more predictable and risk of complications much less if he has himself circumcised when he is an adult.

Dramatic loss of sexual function. He simply will not have a foreskin to move up and down on his shaft. This makes a huge difference in comfort and how one has to go about masturbating and having intercourse. With a foreskin, lubricant is not needed.

Dramatic loss of sexual feelings. Your husband cannot know this. He may well not be able to accept it. He simply does not have the equipment to understand. The foreskin itself has nerves that respond to its movement. these nerves add sensations different than waht you husband can feel. And they are the major sexual sensory input for a man. If you don't have them, you can't feel them.

Violation of your son's human rights. There is widely held acceptance of this, legally and philosophically.

As far as your husband's points, I cannot fit them into this as clear advantages of disadvantages. Your son won't look like your husband in many ways. Is that good or bad? And your son may find that many of his peers are intact, so that cood go either way. And by the time he is ready for sex, he may be glad he has his foreskin. Again, you can argue either way.

The key is not to focus on just one issue, but understand the tradeoffs. What are you "buying" for the pain caused? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages? All of them?

Regards


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

Regarding his own most "important" reason to circ. Looking like his father.

I'd have to ask him how often he has spent time comparing his penis with his father's.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

My understanding is that we are allowed to discuss/link to the sexual function of the foreskin, so long as we're not engaging in graphic sexual discussion. After all, it would be almost impossible to discuss the Case Against Circumcision without discussing the penis' sexual function!

This link is one of my favorites for explaining what the foreskin is and what it does:

http://research.cirp.org

It's based on the research of several pathologists into the foreskin's structures and functions that's been published in the British Journal of Urology.

The risks of circumcision go far beyond infection, bleeding, adhesions, meatal stenosis, etc. -- the 100% complication of circumcision is the loss of the foreskin and all of its specialized sensory structures.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I can assure you that boys do NOT care if Dad is circumcised and they are not. My twin sons are intact, and they learned about circumcision when they were 8 years old - during a church sermon, of all places. They asked what the word meant, and we explained in simple, non-emotional terms. One said "Ouch! Why would anyone want to do that?" I went on to explain that most men don't choose it for themselves, but their parents have it done when they are babies. I told them that their sitter's baby was circumcised, and the felt horrible for hom.

Finally we explained that their Dad was cicumcised when he was a baby. One of our sons said "Poor Dad! He's missing the best part!" The other said "I just thought Dad always kept his foreksin pulled back". It never occured to either one of them that his foreskin had been cut off - why would it, if you've never heard of that before? Since my boys could retract their foreskins, they could make theirs look like Dad's.

Once they learned about circumcision, they had NO desire to get circumcised themselves, to "match" their Dad. The don't match in eye color, hair color, or shape of nose or ears (they look like me). He has a mustache; they don't. None of these differences are troublesome in any way - why should they worry about "matching" a body part that no one ever sees? We aren't prudes at our house, but we don't spend a lot of time naked either.

Finally, my DH and his brother (both circumcised) were in their 40s before they learned that their own Dad had been intact (their Mom told us). They had no idea. Obviously "matching Dad" is not a big deal AT ALL to children - as stated so well in a previous post, "matching" is only important to the Dad who is threatened by the idea of his son having something he doesn't have.

Best wishes to you, MyMary - I do not envy you this conflict in your marriage. I agree with the poster who said that baby boys come with a foreskin as standard equipment - the person who wants to authorize an operation on a normal, healthy infant is the one who needs to come up ith a valid *medical* justification, sufficient to outweigh the risks and harms of the surgery. Trust me, he won't be able to do it.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Here's another tool - it's a list of questions that should be asked before any operation.

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu.../questions.cfm

Since circumcision is often regarded as "just a snip", or a minor procedure, just highlighting the fact that it is sugery might help change your DH's mond. If not, at least you will have the opportunity to have a doctor (or two, if you take the advice of getting a second opinion) explain that the foreskin is normal, natural, and not a condition that needs immediate treatment.

If you can find a doctor in advance that is opposed to circumcision, so much the better! Though any doctor worth his/her credientials should answer all of those questions truthfully.


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## intactDS (Dec 8, 2009)

As the intact son of a circumcised man, I can say that, the few times I saw his penis as a child, I noticed the differences having to do with age--ie size and hair--much more than his glans being exposed and mine not. I do remembering noticing the difference but I figured it was part of the "older penis=different penis" trend I had noticed. I thought for awhile that my foreskin might disapear as I got older, and remember being relieved when I learned more about circumcision and realized that I was gonna get to hang onto it, after all.
-Sam


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## nummies (Jun 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
Is there anyone on this site who has circumcised their son in the same situation and everything turned out ok???


No, it didn't turn out ok. I have regretted it every single day since my son was born. The two sons that are arriving in January will be intact. If you would like to read my story, please let me know.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

My dh was circed as an infant and has suffered sexual consequences (which I'm no longer able to discuss freely on this board) his entire adult life. For him, and for many others who have similar problems, the consequences of circumcision are far from "temporary." Just because it heals fine in a few days doesn't always guarantee it's going to work fine in adulthood. Yes, the majority do just fine, but why is it up to your husband to take the chance just so it looks like his?


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## Mama2Kayla (Feb 12, 2005)

My son is intact but would have been circumcised had he been my first child. I am thankful every day that I learned the truth about circ before I had a baby boy.

My heart goes out to all of the mothers on this board who struggle with a decision they made or those who are fighting the battle with their husbands.









OP--you have received some wonderful responses... I can only echo what others have said, please keep the focus on your son. It is his body, and your husband should not be allowed to bargain away part of it to make himself feel better. Don't be afraid to stand up for your son...that is something I doubt you will ever regret.


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## ursaminor (Mar 28, 2009)

My Brother is intact and our father was circumcised. I think my brother could care less about his dad's penis, but my brother is very grateful my mother and father left him intact. My own son is intact and his father is also. I asked DH one day how he thinks he would feel about circ if he himself was circumcised - he told me he would feel "a lot more screwed up about it". I think it is hard for some men to come to terms with circumcision being non beneficial and even harmful when they themselves were circumcised and had no choice in the matter.

On another note - I really have a hard time hearing about doctors who dont recommend circumcision and understand it is a cosmetic surgery but still preform them. How hard is it for a doctor to simply refuse preforming this procedure? Or at the very least refer the parents to someone else who will preform it? If I were in medical school, there is no way, knowing what I know, that I could have anything to do with circumcising a non consenting person.


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## rozzie'sma (Jul 6, 2005)

My kids come first. I don't think I could ever look my son in the eye if I knew I hurt him to appease my husband. I also don't think I could look myself in the eye. A child's body is not a bargaining chip.


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## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
Pointing out the above obvious facts to the dad will not help. Because it isn't really about how the son's penis ends up looking. It's about the dad KNOWING that the son IS circumcised, even if he never once even changes a diaper or for any other reason ever sees the son's penis or the son never ever sees the father's penis. *It is the dad's desperate attempt to justify his own circumcision by having it done to his son.* Circumcising the son "proves" that circumcision is right and good and therefore that Dad's penis is good. Not circumcising the boy makes Dad think there could maybe be something wrong with circumcision - that he could be missing something. (and sadly, he is. But who would want to face that knowledge head-on?)
In other words, it is all about the man's issues. And his issues are his problem. You can't go around hurting your kids just to make yourself feel good about what was done to you in the past.

As for the baloney about feeling left out of all the decisions on child care, and just wanting this "one" thing to be "theirs"? Absolute BS and you should call them on it. First of all, if the wife is doing all the research, then why isn't the husband? Is anything stopping him from researching child care issues? No, he is simply letting his wife do all the work. Secondly, once presented with the research, most guys agree that their wife's decisions are right anyway (on the breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc..) So if they are perfectly happy to sit back and let the wife do all the research, and happy to go along with her well-researched decisions, then why all of a sudden the "oh poor me, I never get to have any say in raising our children..." card? Because it is emotional blackmail, that is why, just a ploy to try to get the wife to let him take a knife to a baby's penis (because he feels a primal compulsion to do this in order to protect his own ego.) If you don't believe me that the "You get to make all the decisions, all I want is this one little thing" argument is baloney, then try turning it around on him. Say, "okay, fine. From here on out you make every single decision there is. It is all up to you. I will be the perfectly submissive wife. You are the husband, you are the king. The kids will be fed what and how and when you decide, they'll get the vaccinations you feel are appropriate, they'll sleep where and on what schedule you decide, you decide if they get pacifiers or not, go in a sling or a stroller, where they go to school, how we will discipline, whether they go to daycare or have a stay at home parent or nanny, and so on. You can make EVERY decision in their whole entire childhood and I will go along with it. EXCEPT we leave the foreskin alone." Think any guys will take their wives up on the offer? I think not, because the real point of the argument is not that they want more clout on all the other decisions, it is because they just want to get the kid circumcised.
"Who, me, issues? No, I don't have any issues! I just really, really need to cut off part of my son's penis! Now just _let_ me, already!"

Good luck, op!

Jen

Very interesting. We have talked about it more, and I am exploring HIS true motives for wanting this done. I keep asking him, WHY? and but WHY? Well, we got down to it, it is a personal want of his. He wants the possible boy to be like him. He also told me a story about a step-cousin or something like that, that he had exposure to growing up. The boy was uncircumcised and had all these problems according to my husband. He kept getting crystallized urine stuck in his foreskin or something like that and had to have surgery or something (you know when you are a kid and you REALLY dont know what the real story is). Anyways, I think that had an effect on him. Also, he told me he has been talking to his co-workers, one close one of his is uncirc. and so is his son, stating the reason of wanting him to be like Dad. The co-worker did say that the first erection his son had was very painful and he cried. Im assuming because the end of the foreskin(I read) is really like a sphincter. But they are happy heing uncirc.

Anyways, yes that makes sense that my husband only wants it because he wants it. We have been looking at pics of uncirc. males and he gets grossed out. Whats up with that? I dont think its gross. His co-workers also said that you get made fun of, they called it an anteater. I'm not afraid of my child getting made fun of though, if its not one thing, its another for teasing. I know it would make him stronger.

Oh, his other BIG reason is that I am a woman and I dont have a penis, so why would I be making a decision about a penis. Basically, leave the male stuff to males. He questions why most of the anti circ people are women. What IS the ratio of anti-circ advocates male to female anyways.

By the way, the recent circ I participated in is not the only one I have witnessed and I sure know that it is painful and looks horrible.

Thanks for listening. It helps to work this out by writing it.


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## bubbamummy (Feb 25, 2009)

Im English were circumcision is very rare, dh is American where circumcision is very common. When we 1st found out that our 1st was a boy, he told me 'we would be getting him done' I said 'well I have to disagree'







it was SO important to me that I said it would literally be over my dead body. I told him I would leave him before I chopped a piece of my darling healthy baby boy. No way, no how was I EVER, EVER going to do it. He just couldnt understand me, he thought, im sure I was a weirdo English hippie girl.

So he raised the subject at our local birthing class in England and everyones jaws hit the floor, he was the object of 20 peoples stares as the more vocal members of the group said 'OMG...why would you even consider that??' once he knew it wasnt just me, he went home and 'Googled' it, I made him read about it, watch videos of it being done and showed him the table they strap those little boys to. He couldnt believe it. He was sickened and called his mother to ask why she'd consented to mutulating him. It made her cry.

Now he he a complete 'intactivist' a complete 180 to his views 2 years ago. He tells people to come here to MDC and read this forum, he 'sells' the facts about how easy our intact son is to 'care' for (yeah...we dont have to do anything







) he tells people how proud he is that we took our 'whole baby' home from the hospital, how we didnt inflict needless surgery on a perfect little newborn.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

The co-worker did say that the first erection his son had was very painful and he cried.
This one is bothering me because boys have erections from the time they are in utero on. There are many u/s pics with boys having an erection. If this boy was in pain due to an erection it may have been because he was starting the seperation process or the dad is not being 100% truthful.

For a few boys the seperation process is anywhere from a little painful to very painful. Not sure why it happens but then I am not sure why some girls have very painful periods and some dont or some have extremely painful breast buds while others do not. It is an individual thing.

Many boys who had issues with being intact way back when was because the parents where told to retract from birth and clean with soap and wash cloth. This is very damaging and lead to many circs later on because of it. If the intact penis is left alone to do what it is supposed to and retract when it is ready the odds of the boy having problems are very small.

Yes sometimes infections do happen they are treatable just like they are for girls without cutting anything off. Most boys never have a single issue at all though.

As of 2004 the circ rate stood at only 21% in Cali. and that number has dropped every year since so your ds would be in the minority if he where circed. http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

I wish I could give you more up to date numbers but circ isnt something they keep up with much.


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## listipton (Jun 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Claire and Boys* 
Regarding his own most "important" reason to circ. Looking like his father.

I'd have to ask him how often he has spent time comparing his penis with his father's.

This was the kicker for my dh. It was his main argument until I asked him how many times he sat around 'comparing swords' with his dad. Then I left out literature about the myths vs facts of circ (in the restroom where he was sure to see it







). Ds is now 14 months (and intact) and it is a non-issue. I'd stick to your guns mama, your dh will get over it.


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## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

The more I read, the more I get convicted. The one poster who said she really had a problem with MD's who dont support circ but will still perform them and how could he perform it with an unconsenting parent? Yeah, how can he. It's not like my gut feeling is going to change and if I sit there and tell him that I dont want my son to be circ. and my husband is there too in the room telling him he does, I would imagine he cant do it.

I trust my gut, I trust myself and my decisions for my children. I know the feeling of going against my gut. When my first daughter was born, and the peds talked me into the first round of vac's. She was 2 months old. I was a first time mom and I didn't feel good about it, but the pressure was SO strong. After that, no more vaccines for any of them. Wow, that feeling sucked, the feeling of being pressured into something you feel is wrong.

I spoke with my mom today and she wonders why we are even arguing about this now. First of all, she thinks its 95% a girl(theres not been any boys in our side of fam for the last 3 generations.) And she says just wait, and if it happens to be a boy in Jan, then it will be easier to make that decision because it will be right in front of you. She also agrees with my husband that this is a "male" decision.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I have to agree with your dh and mom it should be a male decision. But it should be the male the penis is attached to who makes that decision. He can always have it taken off later with proper pain medication. But he can never get it back.


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## bubbamummy (Feb 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
I have to agree with your dh and mom it should be a male decision. But it should be the male the penis is attached to who makes that decision. He can always have it taken off later with proper pain medication. But he can never get it back.


couldnt agree more. My husband is VERY pleased that I didnt 'allow' him to make the choice, if he had have done, our dear son would be minus a fully functioning piece of his anatomy.


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## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Please read this link (it's for you to read, not your dh) and maybe it will help you understand your dh's insecurity:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html i

THis is perfect.


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## OperaDiva (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crunchy Frog* 
Before you make your decision, I hope that you will read this thread. http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1158645

This is by a mother who was in a similar situation to the one you are in. Please remember that this is real surgery and that there is a real potential for complications.

The above link is my story. Everything was NOT ok, and I have a lot of unresolved guilt and even being upset at my husband because this was his idea. If anything it caused more problems in our relationship for me to just go along with it. My baby boy literally could have died. He needed a blood transfusion and emergency surgery. It was the worst day of my life, and I hope no one ever has to face the same thing. I know it isn't common, but when you see what can happen it is hard to imagine anyone thinking that performing cosmetic surgery on an infant is ok.


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## Hedgehog Mtn (Jan 14, 2008)

I wanted to throw my 0.02 in here. My DH is circ, my 3 boys are not. As a midwife's assistant for 4 years I ran into a few parents who had dealt with complications during circumsions.

DH didn't have the strong opinions yours does, he didn't see the need for an unnecessary surgery but mainly he left it up to me. Years later as the MA we were both glad we made the choice we did. We both met some clients I dealt with where fathers or sons had corrective surgery later in life (ranging from ages 2-56 when they had the corrective surgery) sometime more than 1 surgery was needed.

I've started talking to my sons (oldest is almost 10) about circ and why we didn't choose it for them. We explained that we were 100% in support of them having the surgery later if it was important for them. My oldest recently thanked me for making this choice. He knows he isn't like daddy and not everyone looks like him.....he wanted me to know that the choice was important to him and he appreciated the fact that it would eventually be HIS choice.

FWIW - I do know 3 people who had the surgery as adults and they were happy with their choice to do it.

Sara


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## sehbub (Mar 15, 2006)

DH is circumcised and insisted our son would be as well. He played the "he WILL look like me" card and the "he'll get made fun of in the locker room" card and the "I'm the man, I make the decision about male parts." I countered with "He may not look like you. Should we die his hair and also sign him up for a rhinoplasty in case he gets my nose?" and "won't the guy staring at other guys' penises get made fun of?" and "I'm the only one in this marriage with intact genitalia. Let's let him choose."

Honestly, my "willingness" to allow our son to make the theoretical decision to be circumcised when he's older was enough for him. That and he just didn't care enough to continue to fight with me on it. I was adamant, and he knew that no way in hell would I back down.

Here's my recommendation: If, after reviewing all of the research, watching the video, and thinking about it in terms of his daughters (also a push for my husband, as he couldn't imagine circumcising one of our girls), then I propose that you at least work out a compromise with him, that he agree to wait a few months to have it done.

I've known several couples in your position. Wife said no, husband said yes, an impasse was reached. After taking the whole baby home from the hospital and agreeing to revisit the discussion at 6 weeks, 100% of the husbands agreed that it was unnecessary.

Best of luck, OP. I can sympathize with being in your shoes, albeit not to the same extent. It still saddens me every time an acquaintance chooses to leave a portion of their dear son at the hospital.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

He might have a penis...but you have intact genitals. Since you are familiar with what it's like to have all the experience with intact genitals, your opinion is much more valid. He has no clue.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sehbub* 
It still saddens me every time an acquaintance chooses to leave a portion of their dear son at the hospital.









I agree with this. I think not enough people think of circ in it's cold hard facts. A piece of your baby will be left in a medical waste bin - a piece that he was naturally born with, that was perfectly normal and healthy.

Congrats on the pregnancy sehbub!


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

I'd say don't worry about it.

You said that you do all the research. Well, until he does some research himself and gets all informed, he has no say in the matter.

Tell him that when he can come back with MEDICAL reasons why you should circ, THEN you can discuss it rationally. (And you can come here if you need any help arguing your side.)

But until he does the reasearch and has rational, medical reasons to perform cosmetic surgery on a newborn, he does not get a vote.

(And even after that, the only vote that really counts is the person attached to the foreskin in question. His body, his choice.)


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## proudmomof4 (Aug 29, 2006)

Everything else I would've said has been said. I especially agree with this remark:
_"My kids come first. I don't think I could ever look my son in the eye if I knew I hurt him to appease my husband. I also don't think I could look myself in the eye. A child's body is not a bargaining chip."_ (rozzie'sma)

As you were also mentioning "biblical reasons": there was a thread on circumcision in spirituality for a Jewish background. As you said "biblical" (as opposed to "G-d given command from the Thorah" or similar) this might not quite hit home with you but maybe gives you another perspective.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

I agree with Fyrestorm, and also I think it's kind of a no-brainer that the one wanting to make the permanent, nonreversible decision should concede to the one whose choice can be changed. Your intact son can decide at any point in his life, for any reason, to become circumcised. Your circ'd son can not really choose to go back and become intact (although there are things that some men choose to do to try to recreate a foreskin, the fact is that part of the penis is missing and that can't be undone.)

Even if the actual circ procedure is smooth and easy, you can never change the fact that you severed nerve endings and permanently removed a functional piece of the anatomy.


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## sehbub (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
I agree with this. I think not enough people think of circ in it's cold hard facts. A piece of your baby will be left in a medical waste bin - a piece that he was naturally born with, that was perfectly normal and healthy.

Congrats on the pregnancy sehbub!

Thanks.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

I was in a very similar situation before the birth of my second son. Our first ws circumcised b/c I thought it was necessary and it was a horrible experience. When I found out later it was not necessary I was furious about what had happened to DS1 but relieved to know I didn't have to do it again.

So, some awful fights ensued. I honestly wondered if I was going to have to choose between an intact family or an intact body for my baby. My husband and I both avoid conflict so we almost never fight, but it got really intense over this issue. In the end, I never actually won him over, I just dropped the subject. I quit talking about it and when they asked me in the hospital I just said no. And it was not an issue again. DH didn't argue with me (I'd just given birth!) and didn't press it. It has not caused any further problems in our relationship. No, I did not convert him to an intactivist. But he is not mad at me either. Maybe he wishes he had gotten his way, but I knew I was right and that my position was based on what was best for the baby, while his position was based on his own needs.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
Well, we got down to it, it is a personal want of his. He wants the possible boy to be like him.

First of all, I would try to get him to realize why a personal "want" of one parent is not enough to submit a child to amputative SURGERY, with all its risks, etc.

Secondly, reassure your hubby that your son _*will*_ look like him. I think so many dads think that intact boys are nothing but foreskin! I mean, the boy will still have the head of his penis, you know? And once he's retractible, he can make himself look like his daddy as much as he likes. My second son is just figuring out this trick at almost 3...he's fully retractible (my oldest son is not, however)...and guess what? He looks JUST LIKE HIS DAD under there.







It's not really that big of a deal that some men think it needs to be. Even as an adult, the majority of men look circumcised upon erection because the skin rolls back. An unknowing woman probably wouldn't even notice.

In short, an intact boy will still be able to look like his circumcised father. But a circumcised father will never be able to look like his intact son. The burden of loss should be on the father, not the son.

Quote:

Oh, his other BIG reason is that I am a woman and I dont have a penis, so why would I be making a decision about a penis.
No, but you do have a foreskin. All women do. And your genitals are intact. Compare circ to what it would be like if your clitoral hood was removed and your clitoris had constant direct contact on your underwear, rubbing, irritating, abrasive until it finally "toughened up" and desensitized. How yucky that would feel!

Quote:

Basically, leave the male stuff to males.
Agreed. Leave the male issue to the male who will live with it. Barring any true medical reason, your SON should get to make the decision as to how his penis will look and function.


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

When I was first pregnant with Dd1 I asked Dh what he though of circumcision. (He is circed himself) He said we should have it done. Thank goodness my first dc was female. We didn't do a lot of research on the topic, but I'm sure if she had been male we'd have looked into it more.

By the time we were pregnant again with Dd2. (we didn't know her gender until the birth) we had both done research into circumcision. It was a no brainer for both of us. Once we were both educated on the topic we both thought it was not something we wanted to do to our child. Dh himself brought the topic up to me out of the blue and said, "If it is a boy he will *NOT* be circumcised" It just goes to show how a little research can change someone's mind.


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## So-Called (Jun 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
And she says just wait, and if it happens to be a boy in Jan, then it will be easier to make that decision because it will be right in front of you.

I agree with this, although probably not the way your mother intended it. When your warm, sweet, innocent, trusting, vulnerable whole baby is right there in front of you, the idea of cutting a normal, healthy piece of his body off will repulse and upset you even more than it already does. Even your DH may feel differently when it's a real baby you're discussing, and not a hypothetical one. Mine told me when our son was born that even if he had still thought circumcising was a good idea, he doesn't think he could have actually gone through with it.

A foreskin is not a birth defect. A whole penis isn't something that needs to be fixed or can be improved upon with surgery. And your baby isn't anyone's property.

I understand what you're going through. I was there once myself, and all I can say is that time often makes the biggest difference. My DH's initial reaction to the discussion shocked me to the core. He crossed his arms and basically refused to say anything other than, "My son WILL be circumcised." I backed off for a bit, and the next time it came up he surprised me again by saying that he'd defer to me because he'd decided it would upset me too much to go through with it, and it wasn't worth it to him. Then he really stunned me a few months later by getting VERY angry at the mere suggestion that someone might circumcise his son, that it would happen over his dead body.

He told me later (in so many words) that he just couldn't process the idea that it was unnecessary and harmful at first because that meant that someone had done it to _him_ unnecessarily and had taken something of value. He now thanks me for taking a stand, says he never thought it should only be his decision, and if anything I think he wishes that he looked more like our intact son rather than the other way around.

You've gotten some great advice from the other posters. You can be firm, and still be considerate with your DH's feelings too. He may just need a little space for a bit, before you start things up in earnest again.


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## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sehbub* 
DH is circumcised and insisted our son would be as well. He played the "he WILL look like me" card and the "he'll get made fun of in the locker room" card and the "I'm the man, I make the decision about male parts." I countered with "He may not look like you. Should we die his hair and also sign him up for a rhinoplasty in case he gets my nose?" and "won't the guy staring at other guys' penises get made fun of?" and "I'm the only one in this marriage with intact genitalia. Let's let him choose."

Honestly, my "willingness" to allow our son to make the theoretical decision to be circumcised when he's older was enough for him. That and he just didn't care enough to continue to fight with me on it. I was adamant, and he knew that no way in hell would I back down.

Here's my recommendation: If, after reviewing all of the research, watching the video, and thinking about it in terms of his daughters (also a push for my husband, as he couldn't imagine circumcising one of our girls), then I propose that you at least work out a compromise with him, that he agree to wait a few months to have it done.

I've known several couples in your position. Wife said no, husband said yes, an impasse was reached. After taking the whole baby home from the hospital and agreeing to revisit the discussion at 6 weeks, 100% of the husbands agreed that it was unnecessary.

Best of luck, OP. I can sympathize with being in your shoes, albeit not to the same extent. It still saddens me every time an acquaintance chooses to leave a portion of their dear son at the hospital.










That sounds good about proposing to wait 6 weeks to decide. But, why did my ped say if we were to get it done he would need to do it within the first week?


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
That sounds good about proposing to wait 6 weeks to decide. But, why did my ped say if we were to get it done he would need to do it within the first week?

The primary reason that comes to mind is an absurd thought in the medical community that it is less "problematic" the younger they are. It's easier to restrain a 10 pound baby than a 20 pound one. They may also say it heals faster and it is less stressful. Even if that is true, that doesn't make it right. But that is how they'll justify that. There may also be insurance restrictions too. And of course I would think if they let parents wait longer, more would come to their senses.


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## dentmom (May 26, 2007)

Thank you for this thread. My DS1 is circ'd but the new baby won't be. I told my OB I didn't wanna do it and she said "YES!!!" Now I also need to figure out how to tell my DH. This thread is a good place to start.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dentmom* 
Thank you for this thread. My DS1 is circ'd but the new baby won't be. I told my OB I didn't wanna do it and she said "YES!!!" Now I also need to figure out how to tell my DH. This thread is a good place to start.

Congratulations Dentmom; such a lucky boy.







Just explain it to him rationally, he'll come around. I find it so interesting that a lot of doctors cheer when parents say they won't do it but they can't find the courage to actively discourage it.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Ask your DH if he's ever seen a newborn boy's penis before. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone can safely remove a part of a body that is THAT tiny and not run into any complications.


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## mymary (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
Ask your DH if he's ever seen a newborn boy's penis before. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone can safely remove a part of a body that is THAT tiny and not run into any complications.

You know I'm not sure he has. I really dont think so. But I have. I dont have a problem with leaving it alone.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 
That sounds good about proposing to wait 6 weeks to decide. But, why did my ped say if we were to get it done he would need to do it within the first week?

Because insurance companies will not pay for it after the neonatal period. After that, there needs to be an actual medical condition that necessitates surgery.

one reason your doctor brought it up ("you have a time limit to decide") was because he'd want to be paid for it.

if you'd take the money away, very few doctors would be doing this.

It wouldn't even be a question. Soliciting an unwarranted surgery, in this case, a penis reduction surgery, wouldn't be a driving factor in their practice because there'd be zero monetary incentives to motivate them.

If the _parents_ were the ones seeking surgery on their healthy son(s)... thats different. I'd only hope the doctor's reply would be an honest one.

This very scenario is the reality for our Aussie friends down under. Unwarranted genital surgery is banned in hospitals there. Since they CAN'T do it, the doctors _properly inform_ their patient's parents of what circumcision actually is. It wasn't that long ago when their circ rates were at 90%. Many new Aussie fathers are circumcised, raising intact sons.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
Ask your DH if he's ever seen a newborn boy's penis before. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone can safely remove a part of a body that is THAT tiny and not run into any complications.

Ask him if he's ever seen an intact penis at all. If it's so horrible, I'm sure he would have noticed it on other guys..... since guys apparently spend so much time looking at each other. My husband is circ'd, but actually still has most of his foreskin. He played sports, was in Boy Scouts, was sexually active for 20 yrs before I met him, and has been in the Army for 20 yrs. He has not exceptionally modest and has probably been seen naked by hundreds of people. He has NEVER had anyone make a comment about his turtleneck sweater.
And even though he is fully retractable, and our son's are not... they still look like him. They have his nose, his eyelashes. My oldest has his hair. All of the guys in my house are a lot more than just their penises.
If i was circ'd, and had been educated on it, I would fight like hell to let my daughter's genitals be different!


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## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

Also, circ rates in California are SUPER low! So the "he'll get made fun of in the locker room" argument actually works in your favor...since most of his peers will not be circed.


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## melanie_rabbitbarn (Mar 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mymary* 

I feel like my choice is 1) Refuse to get it done and risk further negative feelings between my husband and me. I have heard this can risk marriages. I dont want that. or 2)Get it done, cry and cry and try to pretend it never happened and make myself think it is ok.

Actually, in my case #2 would have been Get it done, cry and cry and cry, and risk further negative feelings between my husband and me. I really would have resented my husband if he had forced me to hurt my baby. That's why I was so careful when I approached him to not come across adamantly to begin with. But then, he didn't start out too adamant himself, though he did say it was his choice as Dad.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Please remember the TCAC guidelines when posting.

Per TCAC guideline:

Quote:

The discussion of or reference to religion is outside of the scope of this forum. Any posts which bring any aspect of religion into the discussion are not appropriate and will be removed. Respectful discussion of a religious nature regarding circumcision, alternatives, etc. may be hosted in the Spirituality forum. The Spirituality forum is a debate-free zone. Members maintain a list of helpful websites in a Web Resources thread for further information about religious issues.


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## erin23kate (Apr 16, 2009)

Don't try to make your husband into an intactivist. It will backfire.

I'd just stick with "it's our son's penis, he can decide when he's older."

Remember, this is a very personal issue for your husband. Even if he's never said it, what he hears when you passionately decry circ is that you don't like his penis, and you wish he was intact. You've probably never said that to him, but that's what he's hearing. So... he's getting angry and shutting down, because he's hearing that you PREFER intact penises, and therefore are less than happy with his. That's a blow to the ego if ever there was one, right?

So, rather than saying one kind is "better" than the other, just leave it that you want your son to make the choice himself.

You may want to spend some time making it very clear that you are happy with your hubby exactly as he is.


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## mordarlar (Dec 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin23kate* 
Don't try to make your husband into an intactivist. It will backfire.

I'd just stick with "it's our son's penis, he can decide when he's older."

Remember, this is a very personal issue for your husband. Even if he's never said it, what he hears when you passionately decry circ is that you don't like his penis, and you wish he was intact. You've probably never said that to him, but that's what he's hearing. So... he's getting angry and shutting down, because he's hearing that you PREFER intact penises, and therefore are less than happy with his. That's a blow to the ego if ever there was one, right?

So, rather than saying one kind is "better" than the other, just leave it that you want your son to make the choice himself.

You may want to spend some time making it very clear that you are happy with your hubby exactly as he is.

I have to agree with the idea that this fear is really what lies at the heart of the stonewalling seen by many circumsized fathers regarding this subject.

My son is now two. Early in my pregnancy my husband, normally a really easy going and open minded guy, put his foot down, so to speak, on the subject. I was shocked and a little disheartened. We argued a bit at first. I was mostly surprised at how firm his stance was without any supporting reason other than the weak look like me argument.

Over time it began to make sense. I realized that it might seem that i was suggesting that there was a "better way" for our son than the way he himself was. I re-framed the debate. I began to show him all the ways that circ. can go wrong all the while assuring him that THIS was where my concern was rooted.

I showed him images of all types showing tags, adhesion, "buried" penis...I didn't even focus on the catastrophic complications. It wasn't necessary. I told him that the SLIGHTEST complication from a cosmetic elective procedure would be more than i could bear. I showed him the numbers for the more common complications. We searched for testimony of the sexual and emotional complications of these common issues.

I explained to him that i would never forgive myself if anything, especially something i could prevent, went wrong with my baby and possibly his future sexuality. I asked him if the root of his circ preference was based in his own sexual identity and he realized it was. I asked him how he would feel if even something relatively minor like a skin tag or adhesion or slight deformity affected our son's healthy sexuality and/or identity later.

I asked him if he could assure me, while considering the true numbers, that our son would not endure those things. By the time our OB tried to convince us that our son would feel alienated from his father, my husband was already well on his way to personally defending our now mutual decision.

We got the "it'll be ugly" and "girls will laugh at him" discussions from some. We would calmly inform them that the ideas are rapidly changing regarding circ. and that it would likely by a non-issue by the time our son reaches sexual maturity. We haven't heard one more word on the subject once everyone had the pleasure of meeting the boy in question.









To this day, this subject is one of the things that makes me feel the most pride for my husband. He stepped back from something he obviously felt very strongly about, separated himself and his ego from the issue and made a decision in the true best interest of our son.









http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

erin, that is EXACTLY what happened to me in discussing circ with my husband. His point is that he doesn't remember the pain so it can't be that bad, right? When I tried to point out the sexual side effects that are long lasting, hoping that he would relate and not want to take that from our son... He BLEW UP and thought I preferred non circ men, and said I made him feel self conscious.... even though I had not made any connection whatsoever. He made it all about his own stupid penis,







as everything seems to be with men.He said he felt like I would if he told me I should have a c section to keep the vag nice and cute (then apologized profusely because that was a stupid thing to say and he knew it.... but c'mon, what kind of lame come back is that?? Really? A discussion about leaving our son's personal parts to himself turns into an attack on each other's personal parts?) He thinks our son will be horribly embarrassed to have a "different" looking penis and actually tried to use porn as an example of how few intact men are out there. (I asked him if we should be using porn to measure the "normal" type of breasts for women too?) The whole argument he has built is so overly sensitive and adolescent that it drives me nuts. He is so rational about everything else. I think I'm at the point where I am leaving it alone and he will just have to get over it. He is a sensitive, very loving dad. I think one day soon he will thank me for this.... I just don't expect it to come any time soon. I agree with other posters that he is coming to a hard realization that this was done to _him_ with out reason and he can't get it back. That seems to be causing a lot of personal, uncomfortable issues that he has to deal with.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylsmith* 
erin, that is EXACTLY what happened to me in discussing circ with my husband. His point is that he doesn't remember the pain so it can't be that bad, right?


this argument just drives me nuts! ask any shrink and they will tell you that the pain/trauma that we don't remember is what mess us up the most. if we remember the root of our problems/fears/etc we can deal with it, but if we don't we can't. lots of people pay thousands of dollars to shrinks just to help them to remember a forgotten trauma that scarred them for life.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

A previous thread on this same subject:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1075131


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## 4daughters (May 15, 2006)

Looking for some info on here to help someone out. Great Stuff. In this case it is the opposite the wife wants circumcision and the Dh does not. She told him he has no rights and the dr only needs her signature and the circumcision will be done. They are almost ready to divorce over it. Really crazy how she won't even inform herself before making the decision as her dh did. Her reasons are for her son's cleanliness. Any suggestions as to what the husbands rights are in the decision.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4daughters* 
... Her reasons are for her son's cleanliness. Any suggestions as to what the husbands rights are in the decision.

Well, if she is birthing in a US hospital, the husband could talk to both the OB and the pedi and say he doesn't want the baby circed, that he's not on board with that decision and wants more time to think about it. The doctors _might_ not circ if they think both parents aren't sure, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They possibly would go ahead and circ if the mom wants it. It's sad, but that's how it often works.
If the guy is really serious about divorcing over it, he could contact a lawyer and see if there is anything that can be done to make sure both parents consent before non-medically necessary procedures. Hopefully it won't come to that. You always hate to see marriages on the rocks. Has the husband talked to his wife about why she feels the need to rush for a circ? Maybe if he explains there is no timeline and it can be done later in a pedi or urology office it might help. Maybe after she gets used to her son in his natural state and sees how easy intact care is she'll change her mind. Has the dh had her watch a circ video and research possible circ complications?
Hate to say it, but chances are high if the mama really wants it the son will indeed get circed.


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## 4daughters (May 15, 2006)

Thanks for the info, I will tell him to let the obg and ped know his feeling, who knows maybe they'll decide not to if he says he'll sue if they touch his penis! I know here in NJ if the nurses and dr's don't know if someone is opposed it just becomes routine. I feel so sad over it for him, I give him credit as a man to do his research and want to make a great decision for his son. But unfortunately She won't budge, and is making a decions not based on any info. Think it's more about control. The funny this is that he is intact and has never had any issues, as a wife think she should respect his opinion on it. Hopefully it won't come to him have to get a lawyer over it.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
Also, circ rates in California are SUPER low! So the "he'll get made fun of in the locker room" argument actually works in your favor...since most of his peers will not be circed.

I have 4 intact boys and live in the SF Bay Area. My oldest (12) is a 7th grader at a public middle school, and these days no one showers in the locker rooms at school, and the closest you come to seeing people naked is in their underpants.

My son has been teased about the type of underpants he wears, but not his status as an intact male.


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