# Am I an old fuddy-duddy?



## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

I need some perspective from those with kids in the jr high age bracket. I've posted before about my stepdaughter's 12 yo sister, who spends a fair amount of time with us. She has a 14 yo boyfriend that has been causing a bit of concern.

She is one of my friends on facebook, and this weekend her profile picture was of her and the boyfriend making out.







: At 12, I was definitely not making out with boys, but maybe I was not the norm? Or maybe times have changed? twelve just seems so young, and making out seems so close to actually DTD.

I have no idea if her mom has talked to her about sex and birth control yet. She waited a little too long with the oldest girl in the family (two pregnancies before the age of 18).

DH is going to mention the picture to her mom. She is such an intelligent and mature girl in so many ways that it is hard to remember that she is only 12. But bottom line is that she is only 12! Is this normal 12 yo behavior these days and I am just getting old and crotchety?







Or is this girl getting in over her head?


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

It's unfortunately more common than it should be. I don't have a preteen myself, but I'm a former 8th grade teacher and have seen/heard it all. I don't think you're crotchety, I just think today's teenagers are moving way to fast sexually based on what is going on around them (older siblings, media, etc.).


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## bu's mama (Mar 25, 2004)

I think making out is somewhat normal for some 12 yo, but I'd be concerned about other sexual activity that may be going on.

The big concern for me would be the idea she has that kissing/sexual contact is for all to see. Any picture that is posted online is there forever, even if removed from facebook (or wherever it's posted). I teach internet safety to 4th & 5th graders & they seem shocked that the internet is forever.


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## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

I was definitely "making out" with boys at that age. (And remained a virgin until after I was out of high school). But is seems a lot more innocent than what I think they are doing now. My 15 year old and his friends are getting cell phone pics from girls at school in just bra and panties. It also disturbs me that oral sex seems to have fallen under the heading of "making out" for a lot teens these days.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

I would definately have your dh talk to her about birth control and sex! Even if her mom has had the talk, a second one wouldn't hurt.


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## jenners26 (Mar 16, 2008)

I have to disagree about having your DH talk to you niece. If my brother, or my brother-in-law spoke to my teen about sex/birth control, I would think that was HUGE overstep of his boundaries.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Making out a 12 isn't, from my experience, all that odd. Nor does it mean she will be/is having sex.

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable discussing sex with another persons child, even if that child is my niece because so many parents have a clear idea about what they want/don't want to be discussed with their child and it would be very disrespectful and over stepping the boundaries to go out and "take over" just because you don't agree. If said niece comes to you to talk, or to your Dh to talk, then talk. But initiating the conversation is going over her parents heads on the matter.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Oh well, I just reread it. I'm confused now, too. Is your DH the parent of this child? Either way, I think it's appropriate to have DH talk to the child's mom. But if DH isn't the parent, I don't think he should be talking to the kid, unless they have a very close relationship.


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## jenners26 (Mar 16, 2008)

Okay, wait....I think I mis-read it as being your step-sister's daughter. But now I'm seeing that it's your step-daughter's sister...I'm so confused! And, I think someone else just posted about their 12yo neice being on facebook. Sorry...I think I really mixed things up here!









Either way though...If your DH is not this child's father...he has no business talking to her directly. Clearly though, if he is the father, he can say whatever he feels is appropriate!

Sorry for the mix up!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

FWIW, I'm 32, and when I was 12 it seemed that making out with boys was the norm. At least that's what most of my friends claimed-- I don't have proof or anything.


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

I sure hope this isn't the norm and if it is I would suggest that they aren't making out with the 12 yo boys I know.

I see that you said 14 yo boy and quite frankly I find the age difference to be a problem. Two years won't be a big gap later but right now I think it is. (Just my very humble opinion)


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

The relationship is confusing. She is my stepdaughter's sister. DH isn't her father, but her father was absent most of her life and then passed away a few years ago. So DH is a father-figure to her, if that makes sense. She spends about 1 weekend/month with us. She celebrates father's day with us, as well as some other holidays and vacations.

I don't think that DH would feel comfortable talking with her about sex. Her mom did ask us (especially me) to talk with her about the boyfriend and try to steer her in the keep-it-casual-puppy-love direction. But I think that a sex talk would overstep things.

I am particularly concerned because I know that her mom is going out of town for over a week, leaving her in the care of her 21 yo sister, who doesn't have the best track record in the responsibility department. I'm not even sure how much the 21 yo will be home.

Luckily, DSD's sister is scheduled to spend the first weekend that her mom is gone with us, so maybe I can feel her out as to what she has planned for the week.

I think that I am going to try to convince DH that we should have this young man over for dinner. I've thought that we should for a while, but we were waiting to see if things fizzled out. Obviously they haven't, so it is probably a good idea to get to know the boy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't know what I'd think about the making out (esp. as "making out" is such a vague term, and means different things to different people). It's a really bad idea to have those pics on the internet, though. (Okay - will admit I wonder sometimes if it's as bad as we - older people - think. Times will change, and maybe 15-20 years from now, when there are more adolescent mistakes available online than not, it won't be a big deal?)

As for whether it was going on when I was a kid...I'm 40. There were definitely kids in my 7th grade class who were making out, and a couple in 6th grade. I wasn't...but not because I didn't want to. I just never figured out how to get a boy's attention.


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## bu's mama (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
...Okay - will admit I wonder sometimes if it's as bad as we - older people - think. Times will change, and maybe 15-20 years from now, when there are more adolescent mistakes available online than not, it won't be a big deal?....

I have to go with it's a really bad idea. I'm in education & teachers have lost their jobs because of what is on their facebook, myspace, etc. page (including sexually explicit, drinking & drug use statements & photos). Also it's not only what's on your own page, but what others post about you. Employers are googling to see what pops up on a potential employees name & if denying employment. I've heard that even some colleges are looking at whats on the internet before extending acceptance.

Teenage judgment in general isn't great - say a girl flashes a boy, it's funny, it's done, but now he shoots a photo of this & can send it out to everyone else's phones, post it on the internet, whatever he wants. Even look at Michael Phelps using a bong - definitely wasn't something he wanted plastered all over the tabloids, but there it was.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bu's mama* 
I have to go with it's a really bad idea. I'm in education & teachers have lost their jobs because of what is on their facebook, myspace, etc. page (including sexually explicit, drinking & drug use statements & photos). Also it's not only what's on your own page, but what others post about you. Employers are googling to see what pops up on a potential employees name & if denying employment. I've heard that even some colleges are looking at whats on the internet before extending acceptance.

Teenage judgment in general isn't great - say a girl flashes a boy, it's funny, it's done, but now he shoots a photo of this & can send it out to everyone else's phones, post it on the internet, whatever he wants. Even look at Michael Phelps using a bong - definitely wasn't something he wanted plastered all over the tabloids, but there it was.

I know all that, and I'd be careful, myself, and advise my kids to be careful. My point is, though - we don't know what the future will be like. Society has changed a lot, because of the net, but the changes are still in their infancy. It's entirely possible that when the current crop of teens are adults, the contents of their adolescent facebook pages, even though they're still accessible, won't be held against them the way things are now.

There was a time when a teacher could lose their job for things that nobody would bat an eyelash at now. There was a time when any divorcee was assumed to be a wild nymphomaniac. Cultural mores change, and the ones around the net change faster than anything I've ever seen. I'm not saying I think it's a great idea to let this stuff get out on the net (I've actually posted stuff - years ago - that I hope never resurfaces, but it's not this kind of thing). I'm just saying that we really don't know what the ultimate impact will actually be.


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## terrordactyl (Jul 19, 2006)

i think its the Norm i was making out with boys around that age but didnt end up having sex till well into my senior year of highschool with a long term boyfriend, i also have a younger brother who is 15 and the stuff i hear and see from him an kids younger then him is appalling it seems like someone needs to have a sex talk with her at least


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinksprklybarefoot* 
She is one of my friends on facebook, and this weekend her profile picture was of her and the boyfriend making out.







: At 12, I was definitely not making out with boys, but maybe I was not the norm? Or maybe times have changed? twelve just seems so young, and making out seems so close to actually DTD.

But bottom line is that she is only 12! Is this normal 12 yo behavior these days and I am just getting old and crotchety?







Or is this girl getting in over her head?

12 years old is 7th grade. Yes, 7th graders make out. We did then and they still do now. Times have changed, but even if they hadn't - junior high kids kissing is not scandalous IMO. And it is NOWHERE near DTD; I don't understand that at all.

There is no way to know if she is in over her head without meeting the boy and getting more information from observing them together and talking to her in a casual way. So I like your idea of having him over for dinner.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

My 9yo has a boyfriend she kisses, so I would certainly find a 12yo doing the same to be very normal. I would also find the age difference to be fairly normal, as girls generally mature faster than boys. I agree with 'making out' being an extremely vague term. I've heard it used to mean anything from kissing to oral sex. Assuming the 'making out' is just kissing and maybe necking, I would doubt that the girl is in over her head, and I also doubt that pictures of kissing posted online are going to be a problem. If I had a facebook page, I'd probably post some pictures of myself kissing my partners, lol. I can't believe anyone would consider that to be scandalous.

But someone should definitely talk to this girl about sex! The amount of misconceptions about sex in that age group are truly mind-boggling. You definitely don't want her learning about it from her misinformed peers!


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## onelilguysmommy (May 11, 2005)

as long as thats it, i dont see a huge problem..posting it could be an issue, especially if there are other adults who can see that think thats a neglect issue.

i did a lot of kissing of a bf i was with at 12/13. didnt do anything more with him, but a LOT of kissing


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Yikes. I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say this is not normal.

Wow. My son is 15. My dd is 13 and my youngest son will be 12 in July.

This isn't normal. I have lunch with a group of close friends every week and none of their kids are acting out like this.

You know - kids at 12 still need to be supervised. Why is this girl unsupervised to the point where a boyfriend can hang out, make out and then take pictures.

Yikes.


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## coffee.caugh (Apr 9, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
My 9yo has a boyfriend she kisses, so I would certainly find a 12yo doing the same to be very normal. I would also find the age difference to be fairly normal, as girls generally mature faster than boys. I agree with 'making out' being an extremely vague term. I've heard it used to mean anything from kissing to oral sex. Assuming the 'making out' is just kissing and maybe necking, I would doubt that the girl is in over her head, and I also doubt that pictures of kissing posted online are going to be a problem. If I had a facebook page, I'd probably post some pictures of myself kissing my partners, lol. I can't believe anyone would consider that to be scandalous.

But someone should definitely talk to this girl about sex! The amount of misconceptions about sex in that age group are truly mind-boggling. You definitely don't want her learning about it from her misinformed peers!

as i was going to ask when you say your 9 year old kisses her boyfriend is it a peck on the cheek or the lips or what? i found myself interrupting my own question with wait what a NINE year old with a boyfriend? come again?

no offense to you at all, mama, i'm just astonished at kids right now. i was a kid once too and not even that long ago but my goodness things have changed. so much. i think we're doing our children a huge disservice by allowing boyfriends and girlfriends at such tender ages. my ds is stilla baby, yes, and i have no experience with these situations yet and i honestly do not know how i will handle the first girlfriend. but i do know he will not have one until he is at least a teen, and hopefully a mid-teen, like 15 or 16 hopefully.

sheesh. back to the op. no you are not a fuddy duddy. that picture would blow my mind and i would have to hold back saying something to her about it. you should by all means make sure something is said by someone asap because even if you take the making out picture out of the situation, she's still posting her pictures online and thats a huge nono. it's dangerous and will only lead to other things she could do online and trouble she could get herself into and wrong people she could attract.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

When I was 12, the only girls in my class who were regularly making out were girls who hardly had any supervision (it was a SMALL class, so we knew everyone's business). I don't know if a 12 year old has the logic or skills to know where to draw the line. What IS different now is that, as somone else has said, oral sex seems to be part of making out, and it's only a one way street, if you know what I mean. And posting the pictures really gives me the creeps.

I don't know that there's anything you could do about it, but if I found pictures of my twelve year old "making out" with her boyfriend, she would not be getting alone time with her boyfriend anymore.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Yikes. I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say this is not normal.

Wow. My son is 15. My dd is 13 and my youngest son will be 12 in July.

This isn't normal. I have lunch with a group of close friends every week and none of their kids are acting out like this.

You know - kids at 12 still need to be supervised. Why is this girl unsupervised to the point where a boyfriend can hang out, make out and then take pictures.

Yikes.

Yep.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I have to tell you that making out at 12 tells me one thing . . . the kid isn't being well supervised. Please, do this mother a favor and let her know what is going on with her daughter. It takes a villiage, right? Since we can't all be there all the time, we have to watch out for eachother's kiddos.

And I would for sure offer to take dsd's sister while mom went out of town so that she isn't left at home with her 21 yo sister. What a terrible idea!


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *montlake* 
I was definitely "making out" with boys at that age. (And remained a virgin until after I was out of high school). But is seems a lot more innocent than what I think they are doing now.

I agree. When I was 12 just finding a place to meet up in the hallway at school and exchange a kiss was a big deal for me.







I didn't even think about sex or letting a boy touch me until I was 15. So old. lol. Ofcourse though, I did know of people (or heard through others at the time) that they were doing more touching and heavy kissing when I was in middle school. I just chose not to do that type of thing. So I'm sure a lot of it depends on the child too.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I have to tell you that making out at 12 tells me one thing . . . the kid isn't being well supervised. Please, do this mother a favor and let her know what is going on with her daughter. It takes a villiage, right? Since we can't all be there all the time, we have to watch out for eachother's kiddos.

I agree. My child hangs out with a preacher's child that I know of and they are opposite sex (ages 12 and 14) and they tend to hang out in the other child's bedroom a lot when we go to the church for activities (it's next door to their home). I trusted the kids up until I read this thread.







My child is homeschooled and I wouldn't think they'd do anything wrong but you just never know do you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I have to tell you that making out at 12 tells me one thing . . . the kid isn't being well supervised.

Kids used to make out at recess when I was in 7th grade. In order to prevent making out through supervision, kids would have to be fully supervised literally 24/7, which is almost impossible for that age group, ime. At a few years older (15), I'd go out with my sister and friend, split from them, meet the guy I was seeing, spend some time with him, then hook back up with my sister and friend, find out what they'd been doing during our bus ride home, and pretend I'd been with them all along. That was easy, even then - would be a piece of cake with cellphones and such.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

To the OP, I would let your dsd know that this is a bad idea, and I wouldn't bother to say 'in my opinion'. Just gently tell her that posting pictures of her making out with her boyfriend on the net is a bad idea.

Depending on her personality, she may or may not blow you off and think that you are an old fuddy duddy. She may, however, appreciate that you care enough to object, that you're more interested in her safety, and that you don't care whether she thinks you are a stick in the mud.







IMO she can have both feelings about you at the same time.

I know my 14 y.o. certainly thinks the same thing of me. She thinks I'm old fashioned and don't know what's up anymore, but she knows I also care very much for her and her integrity.

I love the idea of inviting the boy over. I would have the dsd over as much as you can, as well. Leaving her for a week with a 21 y.o. who doesn't have a great reputation for responsibility sounds like a lousy idea.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I think it is more common for 12 year old girls than 12 year old boys. I also think that is why your neice is dating at 14 year old. He might be older but they are on the same maturity level.

I think you should say something to her about the photoes, because they are permant. Maybe some links to people that have been burnt by internet and cell phone photoes.

She might appriciate it more later.


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## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Yikes. I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say this is not normal.

Wow. My son is 15. My dd is 13 and my youngest son will be 12 in July.

This isn't normal. I have lunch with a group of close friends every week and none of their kids are acting out like this.

You know - kids at 12 still need to be supervised. Why is this girl unsupervised to the point where a boyfriend can hang out, make out and then take pictures.

Yikes.









:

You're no fuddy-duddy. I have a 17yo, 13yo, 9yo and 5yo. I'm around a lot of teens and preteens and have never seen what you're describing. Maybe it's 'cause we homeschool, I dunno, but most 12yo's I know are still acting like kids.


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## rhiOrion (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm going to thread crash for a second, sorry!

I just wanted to say that I was definitely making out with boys at 12. Actually, my first kiss was at 12.

We didn't have internet, but even if we had I wouldn't have posted it online. I was too scared of my parents finding out! I do know some younger kids on myspace and facebook, though, and at least for them it does seem to be the norm.

And in my case I don't think it was really lack of supervision. My making out at 12 was done at the local skating rink, we just kinda snuck behind a pole and made out. But the skating rink was certainly not "unsupervised." I wasn't even allowed to stay the whole time, I seem to recall my grandpa picking me up at 9 pm. And the owners knew my parents.

What I'm saying is that although supervision certainly plays a part in some situations, I don't think that you can automatically say that the kids aren't being supervised enough just because they find time to make out.

And for the record, I was in college when I lost my virginity


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 

You know - kids at 12 still need to be supervised. Why is this girl unsupervised to the point where a boyfriend can hang out, make out and then take pictures.

Yikes.

I agree with you and yet I think most parents don't. My DH works with middle school and high school teens. Sex is on their minds, and though kissing may seem harmless it just leads to more and more...and because of what kid's are taught about sex through the media they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. kids are also really naive about the internet - today they are posting photos of them kissing their boyfriend, tomorrow naked pictures of themselves. I think multiple discussions about appropriate physical intimacy and internet use are definitely needed - for this girl and ALL pre-teens.


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

Does she need to be supervised more? I would say yes. Is her mom willing to do it? Nope.

On the weeks that my DSD is with us, her mom spends a lot of time on her social life, so she is hardly around. Even on the weeks that she has my (6 yo) DSD, she isn't around all that much. It has been an issue of contention between DSD's mom and DH.

DSD's sister spent the weekend with us, and I dropped her off on Sunday evening to an empty house.







Her mom is on vacation for a week and in another state. DH feels that he did his part by asking (casually) what DSD's mom planned to do about the supervision of DSD's sister. She knows about the boyfriend and about the Facebook pics. DSD's mom has this theory that once kids reach a certain age, there is really nothing that you can do to parent them. Which probably contributed to the oldest one dropping out of school, running away several times, and getting pregnant twice. DH said that once the oldest hit 12 or 13, DSD's mom threw up her hands and said, "What can I do? Nothing."

We asked DSD's sister what her plans were for the week, and luckily she has dress rehearsals for her skating performance several times this week, so hopefully that will eat up most of her time. The fact that she has several activities (skating, orchestra, running club) is good - a least a good portion of her free time is scheduled and supervised by someone.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 







:

You're no fuddy-duddy. I have a 17yo, 13yo, 9yo and 5yo. I'm around a lot of teens and preteens and have never seen what you're describing. Maybe it's 'cause we homeschool, I dunno, but most 12yo's I know are still acting like kids.

My mom saw a bit of kissing and snuggling when we were teens, and I'm sure she guessed that it went at least a little farther than that for some. OTOH, I had a very good friend whose mother _never_ saw anything. We all knew she was very rigid about that stuff, so we were all on good behaviour around her. She was convinced that her dd was pure little angel...and completely unaware that her dd was spending her lunch hours, and occasionally spares and even class time, getting it on with her bf. We're still friends, and she's a self-proclaimed nymphomaniac.

What parents see and what is actually happening can be quite congruent...or light years apart.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhiyaya* 
I'm going to thread crash for a second, sorry!

I just wanted to say that I was definitely making out with boys at 12. Actually, my first kiss was at 12.

We didn't have internet, but even if we had I wouldn't have posted it online. I was too scared of my parents finding out! I do know some younger kids on myspace and facebook, though, and at least for them it does seem to be the norm.

And in my case I don't think it was really lack of supervision. My making out at 12 was done at the local skating rink, we just kinda snuck behind a pole and made out. But the skating rink was certainly not "unsupervised." I wasn't even allowed to stay the whole time, I seem to recall my grandpa picking me up at 9 pm. And the owners knew my parents.

What I'm saying is that although supervision certainly plays a part in some situations, I don't think that you can automatically say that the kids aren't being supervised enough just because they find time to make out.

And for the record, I was in college when I lost my virginity









I had a 12 year old girl friend once. Her parents were very big on supervision. I promise you that did not stop us from finding a way to make out or do other things.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What parents see and what is actually happening can be quite congruent...or light years apart.

so true. that's what scares me most about having children myself.







I remember what *"I"* did beginning at a young age and my parents had no earthly idea it was going on.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
so true. that's what scares me most about having children myself.







I remember what *"I"* did beginning at a young age and my parents had no earthly idea it was going on.

For a variety of reasons, I suspect I'm at least within one "base" of being correct about how far ds1 has gone. But, I'm not putting money on it. I do know he hasn't been up an eighth of what I had been at his age...but I was a juvenile delinquent, and he's just a really great kid with occasional adolescent lapses in judgment. For example, I won't swear that he's never smoked a joint or had a drink...but he's not doing it all the time, like I was at his age.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
12 years old is 7th grade. Yes, 7th graders make out. We did then and they still do now. Times have changed, but even if they hadn't - junior high kids kissing is not scandalous IMO. And it is NOWHERE near DTD; I don't understand that at all.

There is no way to know if she is in over her head without meeting the boy and getting more information from observing them together and talking to her in a casual way. So I like your idea of having him over for dinner.

I had overalls and braids and skipped rope in seventh grade (I'm 28 now FWIW) and while there may have been a couple of girls who were kissing, the biggest thrill for us was holding hands.

ETA - I do not live in an Amish community either!


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Children are sexual beings and it's perfectly _normal_ for them to have those urges.

Whether it's a good idea to engage in make-out sessions at age 12 is something altogether different.

Normal and sensible are not the same things.

That being said, I was definitely kissing and necking with boys when I was 12-13, and I'm 38.

As for the teens who are receiving pics of scantily clad girls they know, be aware that teens have been prosecuted for child pornography because of this. They're calling it "sexting." I just did a report on it for a class of mine. There have been 17yo boys who are now listed as sex offenders because they have pictures of their 16yo girlfriend's naked boobs on their phones.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
For a variety of reasons, I suspect I'm at least within one "base" of being correct about how far ds1 has gone. But, I'm not putting money on it. I do know he hasn't been up an eighth of what I had been at his age...but I was a juvenile delinquent, and he's just a really great kid with occasional adolescent lapses in judgment. For example, I won't swear that he's never smoked a joint or had a drink...but he's not doing it all the time, like I was at his age.

that's the kind of stuff I think about too.







I was much wilder than my now 14 yr old son by his age. I was skipping school by the age of 12 and that was ongoing up until I finally quit school in high school. I also tried drugs, snuck out of the house at night and stayed gone all night long roaming the streets, hitch-hiked from the mall after my mom dropped me off and thought I was perfectly safe there, etc. My son never spends a night away from home except for when he spends the night with grandparents at this point and he's homeschooled. He really has no chance to do anything like I used to do but it still doesn't mean he wouldn't try it or hasn't done something already by this point when I wasn't around.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Yikes. I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say this is not normal.

Wow. My son is 15. My dd is 13 and my youngest son will be 12 in July.

This isn't normal. I have lunch with a group of close friends every week and none of their kids are acting out like this.

You know - kids at 12 still need to be supervised. Why is this girl unsupervised to the point where a boyfriend can hang out, make out and then take pictures.

Yikes.

I agree. While it may be common in some areas, I think it is completely unacceptable for 12yos to be "making out". I was born in the late 70s and while I remember kids making out and even having sex in junior high, it wasn't even on my radar and I intend on making sure it's the same for DD...there is nothing wrong with keeping kids innocent. Heck, I didn't even have my first kiss until almost 16. Even then, I was more interested in my model horses and pets at that age.

I'm totally surprised - almost shocked - people think this is okay. Not in a million years would a 12yo of mine be allowed unsupervised in a "romantic" situation with a boy her own age, much less one in high school. I really feel as a parent this type of activity is one area where I put my foot down.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seaheroine* 
I agree. While it may be common in some areas, I think it is completely unacceptable for 12yos to be "making out". I was born in the late 70s and while I remember kids making out and even having sex in junior high, it wasn't even on my radar and I intend on making sure it's the same for DD...there is nothing wrong with keeping kids innocent. Heck, I didn't even have my first kiss until almost 16. Even then, I was more interested in my model horses and pets at that age.

I'm totally surprised - almost shocked - people think this is okay. Not in a million years would a 12yo of mine be allowed unsupervised in a "romantic" situation with a boy her own age, much less one in high school. I really feel as a parent this type of activity is one area where I put my foot down.

You can't forcibly keep someone innocent. You can put your foot down all you like, but teens tend to be extremely well able to get around supervision and rules. So while you may be convinced that your DD is all ponies and puppies at 16, there may very well be a side of her life that you know nothing at all about, because you've made it impossible for her to discuss with you.

I speak from experience...


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You can't forcibly keep someone innocent. You can put your foot down all you like, but teens tend to be extremely well able to get around supervision and rules. So while you may be convinced that your DD is all ponies and puppies at 16, there may very well be a side of her life that you know nothing at all about, because you've made it impossible for her to discuss with you.

I speak from experience...

Well, I speak from experience as well and everything really is all puppies and ponies.

And I want to clarify that I do not 'put my foot down' with my 15 year old.

Also, something that has been bugging me. I mentioned supervision as an important tool for me. Several posters have said that they were supervised to no avail. My question is - so then should I just not supervise at all? What is the point in those comments. To show that sometimes supervision doesn't work. Okay. I get that. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have kids going through divorces. Or perhaps they are depressed. Or maybe they have been abused. (I'm not saying any of general you have had this happen).

In general, kids who are healthy emotionally are not going to go to extremes. Making out at 12 is an extreme. And it isn't normal. There is usually something else going on if kids are acting out like that.

Disclaimer - this is all just my opinion based on having teenagers, being a teenager and being the sister of an out of control teenager.


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## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
In general, kids who are healthy emotionally are not going to go to extremes. Making out at 12 is an extreme. And it isn't normal. There is usually something else going on if kids are acting out like that.

Again I agree w/lab. I have 2 teens. Supervision does not necessarily mean "putting your foot down" or strict rules. Most parents I identify with provide a healthy involvement in their kids lives where the kids are respected, have a voice, and allowed shall we say, freedom within parameters. Nearly all of the kids I have seen go through puberty and who are covering a spectrum of ages up to 25 or so were or are still quite innocent at age 12.

Although I agree that as parents none of us know exactly what our kids are doing all the time, I do believe that involved parents that do listen to and respect their kids choices are much better equipped to intuit when something is not quite right with their kids. It also provides a framework in which there is a lot less need to act out the way the kid in the OP is acting out.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 
Again I agree w/lab. I have 2 teens. Supervision does not necessarily mean "putting your foot down" or strict rules. Most parents I identify with provide a healthy involvement in their kids lives where the kids are respected, have a voice, and allowed shall we say, freedom within parameters. Nearly all of the kids I have seen go through puberty and who are covering a spectrum of ages up to 25 or so were or are still quite innocent at age 12.

Although I agree that as parents none of us know exactly what our kids are doing all the time, I do believe that involved parents that do listen to and respect their kids choices are much better equipped to intuit when something is not quite right with their kids. It also provides a framework in which there is a lot less need to act out the way the kid in the OP is acting out.









Thank you for posting this. I could not agree more.

Very spot on. Plus you are more eloquent


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## lilya'smum (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't know, it seems kind of "early" for me to start making out. But that doesnt mean it's entirely bad, and you dont need to overreact by the situation. The age gap is not a problem either, I mean he's 14. The story would change if he were 16. Unleast she's making out with her boyfriend and not random guys, but now that I think of it. I can't picture DD doing that 5 years from now. And I would consider it inappropiate.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You can't forcibly keep someone innocent. You can put your foot down all you like, but teens tend to be extremely well able to get around supervision and rules. So while you may be convinced that your DD is all ponies and puppies at 16, there may very well be a side of her life that you know nothing at all about, because you've made it impossible for her to discuss with you.

I speak from experience...

I speak from experience, too -- why would it be impossible for her to discuss things with me? I discussed (and still discuss) almost everything with my Mom. I'm not sure where you're getting impossibility of an open relationship?

I didn't even think of being physical with boys at 12, which I largely credit TO the open, close and invested relationship I shared with my parents. That and living a happy and somewhat sheltered life as a child - which can be done with love, guidance and mutual respect. Early sexuality and experimentation is not an inevitable activity for 12yos.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 
Again I agree w/lab. I have 2 teens. Supervision does not necessarily mean "putting your foot down" or strict rules. Most parents I identify with provide a healthy involvement in their kids lives where the kids are respected, have a voice, and allowed shall we say, freedom within parameters. Nearly all of the kids I have seen go through puberty and who are covering a spectrum of ages up to 25 or so were or are still quite innocent at age 12.

Although I agree that as parents none of us know exactly what our kids are doing all the time, I do believe that involved parents that do listen to and respect their kids choices are much better equipped to intuit when something is not quite right with their kids. It also provides a framework in which there is a lot less need to act out the way the kid in the OP is acting out.

Yes -- and to clarify, when I said "put my foot down", I meant that it is unacceptable, not that I'd be iron-fisted with DD. My parents didn't need to be controlling or punitive to inspire the type of love and respect for them I had at 12.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Well, I speak from experience as well and everything really is all puppies and ponies.

And I want to clarify that I do not 'put my foot down' with my 15 year old.

Also, something that has been bugging me. I mentioned supervision as an important tool for me. Several posters have said that they were supervised to no avail. My question is - so then should I just not supervise at all? What is the point in those comments. To show that sometimes supervision doesn't work. Okay. I get that. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have kids going through divorces. Or perhaps they are depressed. Or maybe they have been abused. (I'm not saying any of general you have had this happen).

In general, kids who are healthy emotionally are not going to go to extremes. Making out at 12 is an extreme. And it isn't normal. There is usually something else going on if kids are acting out like that.

Disclaimer - this is all just my opinion based on having teenagers, being a teenager and being the sister of an out of control teenager.

The point is that just because a teen is doing things that you or someone else may not approve of doesn't automatically equate to lack of supervision.

In the end, the only person who has the capability of stopping a teen from doing something is the teen. You can raise them how you like and trying your best to make sure they won't do something you believe is wrong, but by the time they get to 12, 13, 14 they are starting to understand that their opinions on things differen from Mom and Dad and that they have final say in how they act. One thing I have picked up from friends who share experience, the parents who instil values without instilling the ability to stand up for those values regardless of who they are standing up too are the parents who's children are more likely to be coerced into doing things they don't want to do.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Count me in as a fuddy duddy.

My dd is almost 12, and no, it's not normal for the kids she hangs out with to be making out with their boyfriends, and she's in public school. The girls are just noticing the boys and developing little crushes, but that's about it.

A 12 year old needs more supervision than this poor child is getting. I cannot imagine leaving my 12 year old alone overnight.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Well, I speak from experience as well and everything really is all puppies and ponies.

You think. Many a mother has thought the same.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You think. Many a mother has thought the same.

Gosh! Are you serious?

No. I don't think. I know. But thanks for your concern


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

The idea that EVERY CHILD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD IS GOING TO ACT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! is ridiculous.

Of course some do. Of course some whose parents think they are doing everything right do.

That does NOT equate to everyone.

Please. One person's experience does not equal everyone elses in the entire universe.

My husband was a jock at a public school (in the 90's). He played sports, had a lot of friends, worked a job, etc. etc. He did not have sex until we were married and has never been drunk or done any drugs.

It happens people. There are kids who make good choices.

OP, I would be concerned too. As a PP, having "sexual" feelings as a young teen is understandable, but acting on them is not wise. The earlier this begins, the easier it is to go to the "next" step. Also, considering the history of teen pregnancy in her family, that would cause me to believe that young sex and pregnancy may be very normalized to her. I would also be concerned about her dating older boys-it *COULD* become an issue of her feeling pressured or trying to impress a more experienced partner.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
The idea that EVERY CHILD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD IS GOING TO ACT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! is ridiculous.

Of course some do. Of course some whose parents think they are doing everything right do.

That does NOT equate to everyone.

Please. One person's experience does not equal everyone elses in the entire universe.

My husband was a jock at a public school (in the 90's). He played sports, had a lot of friends, worked a job, etc. etc. He did not have sex until we were married and has never been drunk or done any drugs.

It happens people. There are kids who make good choices.

OP, I would be concerned too. As a PP, having "sexual" feelings as a young teen is understandable, but acting on them is not wise. The earlier this begins, the easier it is to go to the "next" step. Also, considering the history of teen pregnancy in her family, that would cause me to believe that young sex and pregnancy may be very normalized to her. I would also be concerned about her dating older boys-it *COULD* become an issue of her feeling pressured or trying to impress a more experienced partner.

But you see, I don't view a young person exploring his or her sexuality as acting out. I see it as a normal and natural part of life. Like walking, talking and potty learning, some come to it earlier and some later. And I don't see leaving sex until after marriage as a better choice than having sex when a person feels that they are ready to do so. So I guess we are coming at this from different angles.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Also, something that has been bugging me. I mentioned supervision as an important tool for me. Several posters have said that they were supervised to no avail. My question is - so then should I just not supervise at all? What is the point in those comments. To show that sometimes supervision doesn't work. Okay. I get that. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have kids going through divorces. Or perhaps they are depressed. Or maybe they have been abused. (I'm not saying any of general you have had this happen).

My only point is that the fact that a girl is making out at age 12 does not necessarily mean there isn't adequate supervision. There could be lots of supervision - or not. It's the underlying "this is because of the parents" thing that bugs me.

Quote:

In general, kids who are healthy emotionally are not going to go to extremes. Making out at 12 is an extreme. And it isn't normal. There is usually something else going on if kids are acting out like that.
Well, I wanted to be. Yes - I had some sexual abuse in my childhood. However, my desire to make out at age 12 had a lot to do with powerful hormones. Quite honestly, with the drive I had back then, I have _no_ idea how I made it to 15, before I had sex. I knew a girl in my class who didn't even hit puberty until she was almost 17. Sometimes, the extremes are biological in nature...I've spent most of my adult life (until recently) with a fraction of the libido I had as a late preteen/teen.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
My husband was a jock at a public school (in the 90's). He played sports, had a lot of friends, worked a job, etc. etc. He did not have sex until we were married and has never been drunk or done any drugs.

It happens people. There are kids who make good choices.

I'm actually pretty sure ds1 is one of them, actually. But, I don't fool myself into believing it's because I have him under the microscope or am the most perfect parent in the universe, yk?

Quote:

I would also be concerned about her dating older boys-it *COULD* become an issue of her feeling pressured or trying to impress a more experienced partner.
It's possible. OTOH, I deliberately chose to lose my virginity to an older boy/man, because he was safer, imo. The boys at school were much more likely to feel a need to "prove" themselves, to get off on "cherry popping"...and to tell everybody in the locker room that they'd scored with me.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
The idea that EVERY CHILD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD IS GOING TO ACT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! is ridiculous.

Of course some do. Of course some whose parents think they are doing everything right do.

That does NOT equate to everyone.

Please. One person's experience does not equal everyone elses in the entire universe.

My husband was a jock at a public school (in the 90's). He played sports, had a lot of friends, worked a job, etc. etc. He did not have sex until we were married and has never been drunk or done any drugs.

It happens people. There are kids who make good choices.

OP, I would be concerned too. As a PP, having "sexual" feelings as a young teen is understandable, but acting on them is not wise. The earlier this begins, the easier it is to go to the "next" step. Also, considering the history of teen pregnancy in her family, that would cause me to believe that young sex and pregnancy may be very normalized to her. I would also be concerned about her dating older boys-it *COULD* become an issue of her feeling pressured or trying to impress a more experienced partner.

Can you honestly say your DH has never, ever as a child done anything against his parents?

On a more serious note though, you are assigning behaviour based on what you perceive as good and bad. Sex before marriage is not automatically a bad choice in our family, drinking is not automatically a bad choice, marijuana is a drug but not automatically a bad choice.

OTOH... Going along with what your parents say just because they are your parents and for no other reason is considered a bad choice in our family. We can pick up pretty easily when DD doesn't like what we've asked of her, and we don't like it if she chooses not to say anything. We would rather she argue the point so that one of two things can happen 1) she understands why we ask her to do what we want or 2) she demonstrates to us that doing the other or not doing it is not a bad thing.

Finally, it could be a sign that she has a problem that needs to be worked out, that she's seeing a 14 year old boy. Or it could be a sign that many 12 year old boys are... well as DD put it "gross and immature!" and heck she's only 10.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I didn't read everything, but...

* I don't equate sex with acting out
* I am more than okay with premarital sex
* 12 y.o. is not 15 y.o., by far. by FAR!
* not every 12 y.o. will be making out behind their parents' back. I know I wasn't, and not all of my friends were. In fact, only two of my friends at that age went on beyond "I like that boy *giggle giggle*, and both of them had family problems.
* by 15, quite a few girls were making out, and that seemed a lot more "okay". I still didn't, not because I wasn't curious, but because luckily I was raised to wait for the right guy.

I think on average, 12 IS too early, and parental involvement and view on this matters a whole lot.

Just my humble opinion.


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

OP here -

Well, they broke up last week. DSD's sister told us that they were "taking a break for the summer," but apparently he has already moved on to another girl. Not sure what precipitated the break-up, but everyone (except DSD's sister) is breathing a sigh of relief.

The guy did come to her ice skating show, and bring her flowers (this was after the break-up). We saw him sitting in a group of her friends. So they must still be friends, at least.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You think. Many a mother has thought the same.









:

Its great that some parents know their kids well enough to have an honest sense of what is going on in the kid's life. But realistically, I don't think this is the norm. I think some of the assumptions in this thread about the nature of teen sexuality are way off. Twelve is not too young to have feelings of a sexual nature. Not all 12yr olds will, but many do. Not because they are "acting out" but because they have hit puberty.

I don't have jr.high students, but I teach freshmen and sophomores in highschool (age range is 13-16). You might be surprised about what 13yr olds talk about, post about on myspace, and try to get away with in school. Their parents usually are.

When I was 12 I had a 14yr old boyfriend too. Thing was we were in the same grade (8th) so didn't really see any age difference issue. We made out all.the.time. I was a horny kid. I honestly don't think I was acting out (We were both academic geekazoids fercryingoutloud.) I also had a very strong relationship with my mother. What's the big deal?

The issue of supervision is a good one though...by the time I started having sex (at age 16...senior in High School) my mom had left the state and I was living with my dad who was never home. Lets just say that made it really easy to be really stupid.

ETA: I think the real issue here for the OP is the lack of supervision the 12 year old has in her home. What kind of parent goes on vacation and leaves a 12year old home alone for a week!?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

There definitely is a lack of supervision in this case. It just struck me the wrong way when "12 year old making out" was automatically equated to mean "no supervision".

FWIW, I wasn't making out at 12 - couldn't find a guy who was interested. (Our school only went K-7, so I didn't really have a chance to meet older guys, and the ones in my grade were still mostly pre-pubescent.) I _was_ making out the next year, at 13. My parents supervised me, but they didn't realize my long-standing platonic friendship with "J" had turned...less platonic.


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

Calm down guys. I didn't say I thought sex before marriage was wrong. I said that my husband didn't do it. I never said what I did or did not do.

I DO think that sexual exploration at a very young age CAN be detrimental. I think that 12 is very, very young.

I don't have to be a holy roller to not want my pre-pubescent being sexually active. Sorry you guys have a hard time with that. And I can let my children know what I would like.

Obviously, they could make other choices. I hope not, because I am not just out to ruin their fun. I have reasons for feeling the way that I do. If they do make choices that aren't my favorite, I will still love and care for them. But I am not going to just "expect" that they will do things that I think that are inappropriate for their age, and not let them know that they don't HAVE to, and not EVERYONE is doing it!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

It's not about what you make yourself expect. It's about what you allow yourself to respect.

You will still love and care for them if they make a choice you don't agree with, but will you still respect their choice, their right to make the choice, and/or them for making the choice?

Also want to point out that when you list the things your DH never did and end the paragraph with "Some people make GOOD choices" (or something close to that, I'm do have it word for word) your implying that opposite of what was listed would have been the bad choice.

Any sexual exploration at any age has the chance of being detrimental.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Wow! I had no idea that the thread had taken off again. I'll catch up and be back!


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I think most of you are overreacting to girls making out at 12! When I was 12, all my friends AND I were into heavy kissing and making out. It didn't hurt us, and we didn't turn out to be sluts. It was fun, and it didn't hurt anything.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiOrion* 
We didn't have internet, but even if we had I wouldn't have posted it online.

The internet makes things so much easier these days.







I am so glad it wasn't around when I was young. In fact, I was around 30 when the internet started getting popular. I can't imagine how tough it is as a kid in this day and time having people gossip about you or put your personal stuff online for others to see.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee*
Calm down guys. I didn't say I thought sex before marriage was wrong. I said that my husband didn't do it. I never said what I did or did not do.

I DO think that sexual exploration at a very young age CAN be detrimental. I think that 12 is very, very young.

I don't have to be a holy roller to not want my pre-pubescent being sexually active. Sorry you guys have a hard time with that. And I can let my children know what I would like.

Obviously, they could make other choices. I hope not, because I am not just out to ruin their fun. I have reasons for feeling the way that I do. If they do make choices that aren't my favorite, I will still love and care for them. But I am not going to just "expect" that they will do things that I think that are inappropriate for their age, and not let them know that they don't HAVE to, and not EVERYONE is doing it!

I see nothing wrong with your feelings on this. I feel much the same way regarding my own children. I know what I did back then and how easy it was to get in to that peer group where all the girls were talking about making out and eventually sex and how I just kind of got caught up in it all. Then meeting my first boyfriend at 14 and being allowed to date him (my parents were terrible parents) meant that I ended up being pressured in to sex by age 15.

I will try as hard as I can to make sure my kids don't end up going the same route I did. First I plan to talk to them about relationships and that following the pack doesn't always have to happen and that they can be their own person. Then I plan to be there for them when they have questions about things so they aren't scared to come to me if they choose to. I was forbidden to even hint around about kissing or making out in my home, let alone sex.







Then my parents divorced, dad didn't pay attention to me and I craved a male influence and having a mother that thought the subject of sex and relationships was taboo made it all the more tough. I was also a latch key kid, had too many hours of friend-time each day and no parental control, etc-etc. Soooo many things can push a young child to do things they shouldn't be doing.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I think it has more to do with biology than anything else. Some 12 year old girls are fully developed and almost adult looking.....and having the body means having the hormones as well. My mom was shocked when I started kissing boys at 12-13yo.....but I was also a C cup and had been having my period for more than 2 years allready. My dd is the same way, she looks 16. Luckily she's still on the innocent side (thank you homeschooling)...but she'll be 13 next month and just had her first kiss last week. Luckily the boy is the same age as her....and they've had a crush on eachother, "gone together" off an on for a year now. I don't see them as rushing into anything. Now, because of this developement we are adding some new rules/restrictions on her activities with him. But it's nothing midevil. She's just not to hang out alone with him anymore unless they are in the public view. She's modest enough to know that feel that some affection is appropriate in public, and some isn't. I trust her judgement...she came right to me and told me what happened. I listened to her process her feelings about it, and while I'm feeling old and crochety for having a dd that's growing up....I'm not worried about her virtue.


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## Labbemama (May 23, 2008)

I was at age 12 and I was somewhat of a nerd.







and an old fuddyduddy too I hear.

It's probably time for a good talk with her about her privacy and social networking sites and appropriate public displays of affection or PDA.

Talking to her about sex, how well do you know her guardian? How are they likely to respond?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I was NOT making out with boys at 12.

And my dd is currently 12 and I would be FREAKED OUT if she were making out with boys.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
I DO think that sexual exploration at a very young age CAN be detrimental. I think that 12 is very, very young.

I don't have to be a holy roller to not want my pre-pubescent being sexually active.

I haven't read this thread for a while, but I get the impression that you're equating "12 years old" with "pre-pubescent". While they can be the same thing, they don't have to be. I certainly wasn't pre-pubescent at 12. Neither was my sister. OTOH, I had a friend who was pre-pubescent at 15.


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