# Need help now!!! Caught 4 year old dd deliberately hurting our 9 week old



## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

We've been suspecting for a few days that she's been pinching and scratching him, but have had no proof. We've asked her about it, and she has lied, lied, and lied about it. I just caught her in the act.

I sent her to her room, and she's been screaming. What to do now?


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## Susan Kunkel (Jul 13, 2005)

I would supervise her more closely . I would also find ways to spend more time doing special things with her. It sounds like she may need some of mommies time.
Susan


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

ooh boy. looks like you just wrote this too. a book that really helped me was Playful Parenting. at 9 weeks post pardum the whole family is still adjusting. as weird as it seems, the 4 yo needs alone time with you, not a time out. ds1 did get sent to his room for waking up the baby, but it made things worse (screaming, probably resentment and isolation.) looking back, i was overwhelmed, exhausted, and hormonal.

in the evenings we would do books on cd, simon says while i bounced the baby, watch a video, whatever to get through b/c dh worked nights and really long hours. do you have any help? if it was day i would say go outside and let her be crazy.

it will get better.


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## sophiesgrandma (Jun 22, 2006)

She needs lots of love and attention now. In her mind, the love of her life has found a new love. You should watch her closely when she is around the baby and of course stop her from harming the baby and say I don't let anyone hurt you and I can't let you hurt the baby. It will be very reassuring to her to know you are protecting the baby and her.
She needs special time with you and lots of love and reassurance.
I sometimes pinched my step-sister when she was a baby and it took me a long time to get over the guilt of it. When I grew up I always wondered why I got away with it.
Congratulations on the new little one and know you will be able to manage this with lots of patience.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susan Kunkel* 
*I would supervise her more closely .*
Susan

yes! as hard as it is.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't leave her alone with the baby. I've been thinking about this for when I have a #2. My daughter will be 6, but even at that age I'm not sure I can trust that she'll understand how delicate a baby is. And older siblings usually get very jealous of new babies - it's natural for them to at least *want* to hurt them. But even if a child (like mine at 6) is trying to help or pick up a baby it can be dangerous. Your older child isn't evil or anything - it's a natural response. I've heard Siblings Without Rivalry is a good book about these kinds of issues.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

4yos don't fully comprehend "lying" vs "telling the truth."

As much as your 4yo is still a baby in many ways and needs you, your primary focus must be keeping the infant safe. You can't leave them alone in a room together for even 15 seconds. I suggest keeping the baby in a sling as much as possible while you do housework, use the bathroom, etc.


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## AdInAZ (Jun 20, 2007)

I have a 5 year old and a 7 week old. My older child loooooves her brother, but if she is mad at me, she may be too rough with her brother. Our big problem is shouting in his ears. She is definately nicer when she has my full attention. If I'm nursing, she is much nicer if I read a story to her while I nurse. And I make sure she gets extra one-on-one time while dh has the baby. And I never leave them alone together. I even put baby in his carseat in the bathroom with me while I take a shower. I also find the sling great protection.







BTW, it is getting better with time. My 5 year old has mellowed significantly since the baby was born, and I hope her mellowing continues because I sure am tired of her yelling!


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## sarah_bella1050 (Feb 19, 2005)

You should never leave a toddler and an infant alone together. Not even for a minute. Even if the toddler had no malace towards the infant accidents happen. If you have to, get a playpen. Slings are wonderful too, use them as much as you can.

When dd2 was about a month old dd1 decided to show her her favorite pillow and put in on her face. We were in the room so I intervined, but she could have accidently killed her sister if they had been alone.

If she pinches or hits you will be right there and you can talk to your toddler about it. There should be no room for lying, you are responsible for your babies well being, not the toddler.


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## misseks (Jan 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I wouldn't leave her alone with the baby.

True, but you _should_ give her special (supervosed) bonding time with the baby. Everyday, give her the opportunity to touch and hold and pat and stroke the baby - physical contact = bonding for kids and adults alike.

The other reason I think you shouldn't leave them alone together is b/c you dont want to give that responsibility to your older child. An accident can make the older child feel _really_ bad, and it's only an accident, but it can be prevented, KWIM?


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## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

This evening when DH got home from work he moved their carseats apart. That will take care of the pinching in the car, which is where I think she did it the majority of the time. The first time, I believe, was 6 days ago. The times I think she did it at home, I was in the same room, but she was being sneaky about it, because my head was turned at the moment. I can't have him completely supervised at all times. I mean, I could have him in my arms, looking the other way, and she could easily reach his cheek and pinch him hard before I knew what was happening. But I hope that after her discipline tonight and our huge discussion, that she won't do it again, but we're still going to be very careful.


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## feest (May 25, 2007)

"4yos don't fully comprehend "lying" vs "telling the truth.""

LIES!

imo


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## Seie (Jun 9, 2005)

Encourage your 4yo to do good to his sibling. We try to tell our oldest (almost 4yo) that his brother (5 months old) likes when he does like this and like that. We often say things such as "You are a good brother to him when you do like that", "Look how he admires you - he thinks you are a great brother", "He thinks you are really funny when you do that" etc. It seems to help a lot and our older one seems really proud and it doesnt seem like he is jealoux.
Another idea is to put words to your 4yo's feelings such as "are you angry with him because mommy spends so much time with him", "are you hurting him because you are angry with him". Try to recognize the feelings she must have suddenly having to share your love with someone else.

My kiddie-nurse used to tell this little story about how it must feel to get a sibling after having been the only child for a long time. "Imagine your DH one day coming home and presenting you to a woman like this: This is my new wife. She will be living here with us, but dont worry I still love you just the same." That story was an eyeopener to me at least..


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *feest* 
"4yos don't fully comprehend "lying" vs "telling the truth.""
LIES!

I agree. I think 4 yo are capable of knowing the difference.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Another possible scenario? You caught your 4 year old hurting your 9 week old once. You've been asking and asking if she's been doing it since you say she's been lying and lying. Perhaps she got the idea from you?

From here, could you keep the baby close and pay lots of attention to the 4 year old letting her know that you believe in her.

Siblings without Rivalry is a good read for these kinds of things. Playful Parenting is another great possibility?

There are worse things than a situation requiring that you keep your two precious bundles of love physically close for a while, no?! This could turn out to be the best thing that's ever happened to your family!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Of course she's going to deny it, because she knows she's not 'supposed' to do it. It's not really 'lying' in the full adult sense because it's more like she wishes she didn't have to discuss this.

4 year olds don't have a sense of the long term consequences of their action. Thus the advice to keep them apart. You just can't trust them not to do stupid things. Even something that she thinks is helpful might turn out to be stupid. My 4 year old niece nearly dropped a 20+ lb. pumpkin on her baby sister's head because she was trying to 'show' it to her!!

I would recommend "How to Talk So Your Children Will Listen" - it gives helpful advice for how to approach kids when you know they've done something. Basically, you state the observation, and the rule. "Baby has scratches on her face. We need to be gentle with her."


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

First of all who cares if its lying or not. ( I DO think that 4 year olds know the difference)

Kids lie. It's not a big deal. They do it to avoid blame. It does NOT mean that they will grow up to be liars.

Don't ASK her if she's doing it. Simply state what needs to happen. 'You can't touch the baby unless I am right there" "The baby is getting hurt when you touch her , so until he is bigger I need to be there if you touch him."

Okay, that is good for her to know. But you can NOT just rely on your words to protect the baby. DO NOT leave her with the baby until she has better control. This is mostly just a problem that you need more supervision of your dd.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I just wanted to say that I totally agree with Maya44's post. It seems like a lot of these forums get stuck in the trap of bickering back and forth about whether or not the child in question is "old enough" to understand, control themselves, be accountable for their actions, etc. when the real problem is that she is hurting a tiny baby!!

The baby is the most important person in this picture because he can't defend himself. If mom continues to give big sister the opportunity to hurt the baby, something really bad could happen. It's too bad that DD is feeling left out or not getting enough of mommy's attention - it is NEVER OK to pinch or scratch a newborn baby - ever, no matter what. This is the serious lesson she needs to learn.

The fact that she is in her room screaming only tells me that she either feels very bad about getting caught or she thinks (knows) that if she yells long enough that she'll be pardoned.


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## sunshine's mama (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
First of all who cares if its lying or not. ( I DO think that 4 year olds know the difference)

Kids lie. It's not a big deal. They do it to avoid blame. It does NOT mean that they will grow up to be liars.

Don't ASK her if she's doing it. Simply state what needs to happen. 'You can't touch the baby unless I am right there" "The baby is getting hurt when you touch her , so until he is bigger I need to be there if you touch him."

Okay, that is good for her to know. But you can NOT just rely on your words to protect the baby. DO NOT leave her with the baby until she has better control. This is mostly just a problem that you need more supervision of your dd.


This is EXACTLY what I had to do in the same situation 3 years ago....

DSD was 4.5 and KNEW BETTER.......Dp and I KNEW she knew better.....

I had the additional issue of Dp not BELIEVING me that it was happening bc he wasn't there to witness it....I spose he thought that if he didn't see it, it didn't happen....

The baby would be sleeping in her cradle and I would walk into the kitchen (small apt at the time) to get DSD her drink and she would be there lickity split rocking the cradle super hard and pinching.....I caught her almost everytime...and she'd just laugh......it frustrated me to no end. SO I told her that she could only touch the baby when I was there.....I told Dp about it and he just blew it off (I had already been in DSD's life for 2.5yrs) which frustrated me more.

It got to the point where I didn't leave the house without the baby for quite some time bc every time I came home there she was holding the baby or rocking her in her cradle nicely until her dad turned his eyes and then just rocking to the point where it was dangerous....

She did this for a year....so for a year I was almost homebound, thank god my friend moved next door bc I would go there adn visit to feel like a real person.

To this day, 3 years later, she is still not nice to her little sister unless her dad is around.....

Not saying at all that your situation is anything like mine...

I think it's good you moved the carseats from each other..that may help....

I do believe, as others have posted, that 4yo do know the difference btwn lying and not lying....mine did....we'd ask her about it and she would tell us...gave examples of simple things and lie about them and ask her if we were lying or not and she knew everytime...

I will tell you though that about a year ago when she was 6.5 she did something to her sister whle we were all in the car and I said something to her and asked her to apologize and she said, "like when I would pinch and hit my sister when she was a baby??" and I said, "yes, like that" and Dp almost hit the car in front of us at the red light......FINALLY believing that it happened....

It does scare me a bit what it will be like this time when this baby comes end of summer.....she is with us 5 days and with her mom 5 days.....she didn't treat her sister over at her moms like this bc Dp asked how she was with her when they had her 18mo ago....and it wasn't out of jealousy of how dare you spend time with that baby bc when she was with us, he spent 99.9% of his time with her and myself and the new one were left to fend for ourelves during that time.....I just don't want to have to have hawkeyes this go round...it's soo tiring.......

I hope things work out better for ou than they did for me........


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## november21 (Feb 14, 2007)

Ah momma that's so hard.

BUT....... Please don't punish your 4 year old- she's just jealous and angry and where that would be ones first instict perhaps punishing her could make it worse. ? But I certainly wouldn't let her be alone with the baby, not for a minute!

A new baby is really hard for a toddler/preschooler to adjust to - the baby has taken the stage- Is it possible to do something special - just you and her-something special?


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Well, if it were me, I would have reacted in the same manner!







It must be very frustrating that this child that you love so much doesn't seem to love the new baby that you also love very much! I don't think that letting the deed go "unpunished" is a very good solution, but it seems that your older dc is acting out to get your attention, and possibly just to see what kind of reaction the baby has. I agree that it might be nice if you and she could find some special one-on-one time together, but I also think you were right in reacting to the situation. I also think that most 4 yo know when they are lying.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It is VERY hard to supervise all the time. I would have done the same thing you did.

The lies, I think I would let that go, and think about how you ask her. If you already know she hurt him, don't ask. Just say something about how he is hurt, and have her show you what hurts. If she is pinching him, you can find it on your own. But, any kid is going to say "I don't know" when you ask why he is crying.

Just last year, I discovered baby carriers. It's the best way to keep him safe. For such a tiny one, I prefer wraps. But, a sling is great too. That way, she can't get to him, but you have your hands free.

When you can't hold him, or be with him, put him in a playpen that she can't get to.

In five years, when he does something to her.... remind her of all of this.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
But I hope that after her discipline tonight and our huge discussion, that she won't do it again, but we're still going to be very careful.

I don't know your family, but I have dealt with new baby issues twice now, and the one thing I've learned is that you can't discipline or punish them away. I think that there are a lot of times in parenting when expressing your anger to your child can be effective. Sibling issues is not one of them.

The more you scold, threaten, and interrogate your older child, the more certain they will be that you do indeed love the baby more, just as they had secretly suspected. This will create a terrible cycle where they act out their anger on the baby while simultaneously testing their theory that they are now persona non grata. You will get angrier and angrier, proving their theory again and again.

At least that's what's happened around here.









Anyway, I'm in agreement with Maya44. Don't ask, just don't leave her unsupervised again. And try not to dote too much on the baby when she's around. And get her to help. My four year old and my baby are sooo close. Partly this is because she already knew how to be a big sister, and she didn't have nearly as many mixed feelings as when ds1 was born. And partly it's because she can really help with him. She can entertain him, make him laugh, pick out clothes for him, help put dry diapers on him, etc. She has a real sense of ownership.


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## motherinlove (Aug 4, 2005)

Being a mother of five small children, I have gone through the sibling rivalry quite a few times. My advice, do not let the baby unsupervised with your daughter. Young children do not understand how fragile a baby is and may feel that him/her are more loved, which makes them jealous. The best thing to do is make your daughter feel special for being a big sister. Have her in charge of getting diapers or toys for the baby. Give her a lot a positive words for being a good sister, when she does something nice for the baby. And, definitely make time for cuddling and hugging her too.
My youngest daughter is two months old and my two year old son went through a similiar stage. When I was holding Isabella, Zack would scratch or hit her somewhat hard. We did put him in time out - he needed to know it was unacceptable behavior. We had to do this several times. However, I started to notice all he wanted was my attention. So, I took time out to make sure I cuddled with him to read a book or whatever else - his negative behaviors toward his sister stopped. And now, he is in charge of pushing the start button on the swing and the official diaper runner.
As for lying, as much as we become frustrated with being lied to - they too young to fully understand the concept. Yes, teach them it is wrong, but do not over react too much - it is simply a behavior that needs to be corrected.


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## crazycandigirl (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inca* 
My kiddie-nurse used to tell this little story about how it must feel to get a sibling after having been the only child for a long time. "Imagine your DH one day coming home and presenting you to a woman like this: This is my new wife. She will be living here with us, but dont worry I still love you just the same." That story was an eyeopener to me at least..

Wow. That is a really eye opening way to put that. I can imagine it feels like that when you are so little and have no control over much.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

In addition to supervision, a discussion about being extra gentle with the baby, more mommy and older child alone time, I'd also recommend getting your older child to help with baby tasks. Can she help you with diaper changes? Help pick out clothes? Anything to keep her involved.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Someone once told me that bringing home a new baby is like your partner bringing home a lover and telling you "Honey I still love you just as much, but I love her too so we are all going to live together. No, sorry, you have no say whatsoever in the matter, I have already decided."

That really helped me put it in perspective.


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