# The real risk of coats in car seats--could someone give me resources.



## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I live in Northern Canada, and have recently heard that people are not putting their children in carseats in coats. I have heard that they could compress and fit (shoulders and all) through the head hole and be ejected.

So I don't understand exactly how a child would fit through the head hole.

My other concern is....is it doable to not wear a coat in -40C weather? Is the risk of hypothermia more of a risk than risk of being ejected?

What are my options.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

http://www.justmommies.com/blog/2010/11/im-guilty/

And, yes, it's dangerous for adults to wear coats in the car for the same reason... your seat belt will not be snug against your body, and will not hold you as well in a crash. If you have the heater on in your car, your child will not get hypothermia. If it is warm enough for you, it's warm enough for your little one. After buckling, you can always layer on warm wool blankets if necessary.

Even if the child isn't 100% ejected from the seat (though that is possible), they are still at risk of major injuries. A FF child will be thrown violently forward, putting great strain on the neck and spinal cord. Since the loose straps would allow for much more movement, his head could hit the seat in front of him, as would his arms and legs, at speeds that easily break bones. A RF child will be thrown up and back. If the straps are loose, she could easily ride up high enough in her car seat for her head to be thrown back over the top of the seat, resulting in major head and neck injuries.

Even if it was a choice between hypothermia and broken necks/spinal injuries, I'd choose the hypothermia hands-down. Hypothermia is treatable. Of course, hypothermia is easily prevented, even without coats in the car.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

Here is one video I saw on FB a couple weeks ago that showed it:


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

You can wear long underwear, then clothes with fleece over the top - as long as you dont have to loosen the straps to put the kid in, then its ok.

Instead of a coat, use a double layer carseat poncho on-top, or a coat on backwards (over the harness after its buckled tight), or just pile on blankets and when you get where you are going (the car will be warmed up at that point), get out of the carseat and put the coat on and then open the doors.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

We buckle the child into the seat, and then put the heavy coat on backwards, over the buckles, tucked in around the child. The child is safe, and warm, and there's not any hypothermia risk-- the child is only out of the coat for a few seconds.


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

nak

i'm trying to figure out how to keep my baby warm too. when it's -40 out my car doesn't warm up to freezing even, so i need to figure out how i can strap him in then bundle him so that he stays bundled (he's an escape artist). I may need blankets...


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Red Sonja*
> 
> Here is one video I saw on FB a couple weeks ago that showed it:


Thanks for that video link... a fb friend recently posted a picture of her little boy harnessed in with a big leather coat on. I'm going to post this video on my fb!


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Also, note that belt webbing (like in the harness) stretches during a crash. Not like elastic, but surely the head-hole will be larger that it started out with. The force of the child's body will force the chest clip down and the "head hole" will become bigger.

Think of putting the coat in a space saver bag- it will greatly decrease the volume that it takes up. Same goes with crash forces- they will compress the coat, the air will come out, and your harness won't be as "snug" as you once thought it was.

If you have to loosen the harness to accommodate a piece of clothing, the piece of clothing is interfering and is too thick/bulky.

And yes, I know it's a pain. I'm a Chicagoan and it gets cold here too !


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

I don't intend to be a jerk here, but are there documented cases of children being ejected because they were wearing winter coats? My two children in car seats have very flat dense (think wool) coats that wouldn't be able to compress that much and I tighten every time I put them in. I tighten a heck of a lot more than that lady in the video. I have to loosen it back up every time to be able to get it buckled and then re-tighten. My oldest has a puffy coat, but it is easier with a booster and a 7 year old to work around it. It takes me longer to buckle all three of my kids in (3 across so hard to reach) and warm and de-ice the car than it does to drive them to school. The entire time, we are outside in the freezing cold with the door open (no way I can assist them without standing outside). They'd be freezing their asses off if they were not wearing coats during that whole ordeal. As it is even with coats they are complaining about the cold. And we don't even live in an especially frigid area like Canada. For those with the luxury of a garage and a van I guess I can imagine this working, but the rest of us would like to see the proof that being cold and miserable every morning is going to actually pay off if there is a crash.


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

I mean, seriously, the OP is talking about negative 40 degrees and you all are telling her to wear thin microfleece or put a poncho on. Crazy. The risk of hypothermia is clearly higher than the theoretical (which nobody seems to be able to quantify) risk of ejection in the possibility of an accident.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

What about buying a remote starter and warming your car up first? I don't see how hypothermia would be a risk then, b/c by the time you have to remove the child's coat for 5 seconds to buckle them in (and then put it on backwards, or use blankets), the heater will be going strong.


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom*
> 
> And yes, I know it's a pain. I'm a Chicagoan and it gets cold here too !


The coldest temp. EVER recorded in Chicago is -33 celsius which is warmer than what the op is talking about.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PatioGardener*
> 
> nak
> 
> i'm trying to figure out how to keep my baby warm too. when it's -40 out my car doesn't warm up to freezing even, so i need to figure out how i can strap him in then bundle him so that he stays bundled (he's an escape artist). I may need blankets...


I can't even imagine (I live in the desert). so, the car never warms up past zero the whole time you are driving? Brrrr.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Indie (Hey!







) I have been looking and looking for documented cases of excursion or ejection where the fault lay or where additional damage was probably done by a child wearing a winter coat. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Lots of theory and explanations (which I get!) but no actual cases. Anyone else have actual documented cases?

Jenne


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I do know of a situation where some kids were buckled in and died of hypothermia (didn't have their coats on, high school kids driving desolate winter roads in Wyoming). The parents were told that the kids would have lived if they'd had their coats on to keep them warm 'til their wreck was noticed. They didn't die from their injuries, but from hypothermia (coupled with broken limbs or etc. preventing them from doing anything to GET warm). They were friends of my cousins.

.... I think layers with fleece and bringing the winter coats along is a good option - start the car to warm it up before you go and bring the winter coats with you if you're going to an outdoor activity (meeting friends at the sled hill or whatever). Bringing a warm blanket to toss over kids once they're buckled but doors are still open/vehicle is cold, is also a good idea (I had a drafty old car that I used to drive with a blanket over my lap and legs, when I was in high school and college!).

Thanks for asking the question, and for the blog link. I was a little skeptical 'til I read the link - and showed my dh and thought he'd be skeptical but he's all for changing how we do things. I'm not worried about hypothermia or exposure if we get in a wreck while we're running errands 'round town!

ETA: Where I grew up, high in the mountains in MT, I remember regularly (nothing anyone every commented about, it was just the normal winter thing) temperatures of 40 below (F and C are the same at that temp) - sometimes lasting for a couple weeks without ever cracking above 0 and they never calculated the wind temperature on the forecasts they'd just say "plus windchill.") So, wanted to clarify that while OP is talking about cold weather and probably has longer periods of cold weather than those of us to the south, there are parts of the Lower 40 that still can become very cold. That said, it never got that cold when I was by Lake Michigan - lake effect, I don't know?  I think my solution is one I'd use, even at those very cold temperatures - layers, fleece on top, warm blanket to bundle 'round them while whisking into vehicle as quickly as I can, and preheat the car before we go anywhere so it has a chance to warm up. The blankets are also nice because when it is that cold, no matter how good the car's heater is, there is a cold, cold space near the windows.

And, the cold is also a major reason we went with a bucket system for our infant seats. We would use one of the fleece covers on the bucket seat, load her in the house, tuck 1-2 blankets around her, fleece cover over all - they never got cold - by the time the cold would have penetrated, the heater was warm enough that they were fine.

Most of the time when I'm traveling, I'm in town so if there were a wreck, hypothermia wouldn't be a concern - there'd be people right there to help immediately, so the fleece and blankets would be fine. When we do longer road trips on winter roads (which is frequently) we always have winter coats and blankets right by the kids so we can cover them quickly and we do so if the roads get dicey. We travel a lot on isolated roads ....

I do think it's important to also remember, snow boots and hats are still going to be keeping a lot of heat retained on kiddos. If they're wearing a good warm hat and their boots (and maybe mittens) that will help a lot with the cold temperatures as the car is warming up more while you're driving. We lose a TON of heat through our heads, the hats help!


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

In such freezing temperatures, you could use the "coat trick" or put the coat on backwards after strapping the child in. The "coat trick" is demonstrated in the first link I posted and at around 2:45 in this video.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2soren*
> 
> In such freezing temperatures, you could use the "coat trick" or put the coat on backwards after strapping the child in. The "coat trick" is demonstrated in the first link I posted and at around 2:45 in this video.


In temperatures like the OP is describing, this is what I would do. It eliminates the issue entirely-- even if the risk of compression and ejection is theoretical, the "coat trick" solves both problems-- the child is wearing the coat, and the child is in the seat properly.

I don't know that this is the kind of thing that IS documented. All you'll find, I'm pretty sure, is anecdotal stories-- because there's no agency out there with the mandate to collect this kind of information. There's a good discussion of that here:
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=150956
Just like you won't find many "documented cases" of three year olds being ejected from boosters they were too small for, either-- and yet you will find the anecdotal stories of that, too. Nobody's collecting the information, and sorting accidents based on these risk factors. So what we have is the theoretical risk, based on what we know about the way car seats perform in crashes and crash tests.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Okay, so are there crash tests where dummies are wearing coats and then not wearing coats?

Jenne


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I have not been able to find any. It seems, from what I'm finding out, that they haven't been done.

That doesn't negate the potential danger. Nobody's done crash tests to find out what happens if you get in a crash with a case of beer on your lap either (to my knowledge!) but I think my common sense can supply the answer.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

It's not something that the government tests, because it's in all the manuals anyway.

I live in Alaska, and we get similar temperatures. Of course we worry about cold temperatures, and want kids to be comfortable, but also want to reduce their risk of injury or death.

You can test the coat--strap kid on with the coat, and tighten the straps. Then take the coat off, without tightening the straps, and buckle the child again. Push the chest clip down (as this happens in a crash) and see how much room there is between the coat and the child. ANY amount of slack introduces risk of injury or death--more movement is more risk of spinal or neck injuries, head injuries from impacting the side of the car or other objects, etc.

There was a case here last year where a baby was ejected from the car and lived (miraculously). We also had a 6yo die last month from being ejected, but who knows what the circumstances were.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

just wanted to add, with a younger child (older than bucket seat age though), you can get larger bunting bags. they fit on strollers and convertible carseats too. we have one, it is really warm (like a big sleeping bag) with a removable panel on the back for the straps. so i bundle my dd up in it, take her out to the car, lift off the back panel and then only have to unzip the sides a little bit to get my hands in there and do her straps up... her back is firmly against the car seat, but she stays nice and warm while getting buckled in. we live in montreal and have street parking, so heating the car up beforehand is impractical, and we occasionally have to walk far enough to our car that just a couple of blankets aren't going to protect her from the elements.


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## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm only in New England, where it gets cold, but no insanely cold. My son wears a hat, a little fleece vest or pull over and nothing else. I wrap him in a warm blanket while we're outside, put him in the seat and then tuck the blanket in over him, not near the straps. He seems comfy.


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

I thought it was ok to wear a coat that is fleece because it doesn't compress (I think I read it here?) and in another video that she does, she uses a wool coat and does the test and says that because of the space left after taking him out that it isn't safe either. The wool coat is very dense like the fleece.

Any opinions?


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> just wanted to add, with a younger child (older than bucket seat age though), you can get larger bunting bags. they fit on strollers and convertible carseats too. we have one, it is really warm (like a big sleeping bag) with a removable panel on the back for the straps. so i bundle my dd up in it, take her out to the car, lift off the back panel and then only have to unzip the sides a little bit to get my hands in there and do her straps up... her back is firmly against the car seat, but she stays nice and warm while getting buckled in. we live in montreal and have street parking, so heating the car up beforehand is impractical, and we occasionally have to walk far enough to our car that just a couple of blankets aren't going to protect her from the elements.


thank you, silverfish! a montrealer understands the cold  would you mind posting a link for the type of bag you are talking about?

and to the pp who asked about the car not warming up to zero... yup! i have an older car, outside parking just like silverfish, and it gets cold . i have to wear gloves to drive or my hands get so cold they hurt. the heater blows cold air for a good 30 minutes. Even the antifreeze freezes at times! you know it's cold when you have to plug your car in.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Bunting bags are no-nos but the type that go over the seat (the shower cap style ones) are safe.


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *indie*
> 
> I mean, seriously, the OP is talking about negative 40 degrees and you all are telling her to wear thin microfleece or put a poncho on. Crazy. The risk of hypothermia is clearly higher than the theoretical (which nobody seems to be able to quantify) risk of ejection in the possibility of an accident.


Yeah, we deal with -40 and WIND. It'd blow straight up underneath a poncho.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> What about buying a remote starter and warming your car up first? I don't see how hypothermia would be a risk then, b/c by the time you have to remove the child's coat for 5 seconds to buckle them in (and then put it on backwards, or use blankets), the heater will be going strong.


We have a remote starter AND plug in our car at night (engine block heater) and still can barely get our heat on by the time we get to our destination (granted, the longest drive in our town is 15 minutes away). Gas is well over $5 a gallon and we'd have to run it for a LONG time at idle for it to get that warm.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2soren*
> 
> In such freezing temperatures, you could use the "coat trick" or put the coat on backwards after strapping the child in. The "coat trick" is demonstrated in the first link I posted and at around 2:45 in this video.


A few of my FB friends have posted this, and I've wondered... what the heck is the kid wearing while the parent puts the coat into the carseat? We don't have a garage. DS would have to wear his coat out to the car, take the coat off, climb into the car (remember it's not warm at this point, and windy, so he's in a still-mostly-cold car with the wind blowing in the door), and sit there shivering while I fiddled with his coat?

I WANT to go coatless in the carseat. I DO, in Wisconsin, and even in Anchorage. That kind of cold is totally do-able. -40 with wind blowing off the treeless tundra (we live on the edge of town; not even any houses to block the wind), when you don't have a garage, is a different challenge and I can't formulate a plan that would actually work. Heck, I feel bad taking him outside without snowpants, which are even more a no-no. Maybe buy another coat (a size up so he can use it next year as his main coat?) and keep it in the carseat, so the switch-out is faster? He'd still be coatless outside, though, which seems cruel. *I* can't imagine taking *my* coat off outside. I wear my puffy down parka whenever I drive when it's really cold.

So if anyone has any experience in keeping a kid warm doing this in REALLY cold conditions with no garage and a fairly crappy car, I'd appreciate the guidance.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I live in cold, and I have no garage  and I have three little kids to get in the car.

This is my routine:

Big girls (3 and 5) are dressed in tights under their pants, long sleeved shirts, fleece, hats, mittens, and their big puffy coat over it. I take them both to the car, load them in, and have them get in their seats and take their coats off. I usually just open the door long enough to get them in, and shut it so they are not in the wind.

DS (18m) usually wears a fleece jammie and a fleece one-piece suit over it, mittens, hat, boots. I load him last, usually just run out, buckle him in, buckle in the girls who are already in their seats with their straps on, and then they get their coats tucked around them. DS gets a blanket tucked over him.

If it's really cold and nasty (like during the 75mph wind storms) I'll climb in the front seat holding DS, and turn around and plunk him in his seat, and buckle him from there so I don't have to stand outside in the wind and nobody inside gets blasted by the wind. But sometimes that's not an option (like I just had shoulder surgery so I can't be twisting around or even carrying the kids).

DD1 goes to a Waldorf school and as soon as they get to school they go outside for an hour-long walk (unless it's below -10*). My routine with her is to park, reach back and unbuckle her, and have her climb into the front passenger seat. I then take off her boots and help her into her snowsuit, put her boots back on, and get her puffy coat on.


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## JamieB (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blizzard_babe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You don't have to take his coat off to do the "coat trick". Google it or go on youtube and watch some videos.

I live in Northern Ontario and it gets pretty cold here. DS2 is easy, he has a one peice fleece snowsuit from Land's End. DS1 just wears his fleece/coat sweater or we do the coat trick with his big coat, depending on the temp., whether or not the vehicle has been running, if we are taking the truck that has been in the garage and where we're going.


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

'K, I'm going to give it a try. We take the boys out pretty infrequently; there's not much for them to do, usually.


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## JamieB (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blizzard_babe*
> 
> 'K, I'm going to give it a try. We take the boys out pretty infrequently; there's not much for them to do, usually.


Here's one:


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Okay I am the OP and I have not read the whole thread....I will definitely come back to do that.

Can anyone post links to deaths/injuries associated with wearing a winter coat? I see hypothermia as a much more real risk. Running my car is not an option. I don't have a car starter.

What if I put the coats on backwards and in a crash they are thrown off and my children/infant gets hypothermia?.....-40C is really no joke.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> DS (18m) usually wears a fleece jammie and a fleece one-piece suit over it, mittens, hat, boots. I load him last, usually just run out, buckle him in, buckle in the girls who are already in their seats with their straps on, and then they get their coats tucked around them. DS gets a blanket tucked over him.


I don't see how this is safe either though. I mean, yeah everyone says that fleece is ok, but 2 fleece layers, unless they fit super snuggly wouldn't allow you to get the straps tight enough either :shrug

In -40C, I would just put them in the carseat with their coats, and stay off main roads and not drive when the roads were really bad. I might try the coat trick on a warmer day to get used to it, and see if it worked.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I am pretty sure that the reason wool or fleece are preferable-- even if you have to loosen the straps to accomodate it-- is because they don't compress, the way the big puffy coats too. We don't worry about loosening to accommodate diapers, for instance, because those don't compress. I'm sure buckling in a naked child would be the idea thing, but we can't do that, obviously. But puffy coats are such an obvious issue, because of the compression, and because they often distort where the straps sit on the shoulders.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Fleece is fine. It does not compress in a crash. I have also tested it out and it does not require that the straps be let out to put on that thickness.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

There may not be documented links or studies for this, but the logic behind it is sound to me and I don't want my kid to be the one to find out how true it is.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Ninetales- It may be a risk, but if the risk is 1 in 1, 000,000,000 then...how real is the risk?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *momtoS*
> 
> Ninetales- It may be a risk, but if the risk is 1 in 1, 000,000,000 then...how real is the risk?


In 2009, 76,309 people died in car crashes. If the population of the US is 307,006,550 (as of July 2009), roughly 2.5% of the population of the US die in car crashes every year.

More specifically, 1538 were under the age of 16. There are 74,000,000 children under the age of 16 in the US. Of the children under the age of 16 that died in car crashes in 2009, 909 were fully or partially ejected. So of the children that died in the US in car crashes, 59% were ejected (whether fully or partially). The odds are low, but definitely not one in a billion.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm

Well, there is an average of 4 deaths and 504 injuries from car accidents *every day* in children under 14. Over 1300 dead each year and 180,000 injured, some with permanent, disabling spinal injuries. Out of approximately 60 million kids under 14 in the US. Car-related fatalities are the leading cause of death for children in America. In 2002 (the most recent numbers I could find in a quick search) *21% of all kids that died* that year died in car accidents http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Kids.html

Many of these kids were not restrained properly (whether in a harness, booster, or adult seat belt). It is estimated that between 70 and 85% of car seats and boosters are used incorrectly. It takes only a casual look around your nearest children's museum parking lot to see that many of such seats are installed incorrectly, and quite often the harnesses aren't being used correctly (usually kept much too loose.) As you have learned after reading other posts in this thread, wearing a thick coat under the harness makes the straps too loose, and often forces the straps down over the child's shoulders, which will make the straps virtually useless in an accident. Bulky clothing under the harness = not using your car seat correctly.

The risk is not 1 in a billion. Your child is more likely to die in a car accident than from ANYTHING else. Not using best practice EVERY time we strap our kids in the car is quite unwise. It takes a little extra time, a little extra thought, but, as many others have said, there are ways to do it safely (and warmly!), even in the most extreme weather conditions. If we knew for a fact that our next car ride would be without incident, I suppose we wouldn't need to use a car seat at all. But, of course, we can never be so certain. We must assume that *this* will be the ride that ends up in an accident, and strap our kids in the way we'd want them strapped in if we knew we'd get in a bad crash.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I did a little bit of research about hypothermia and the only thing I could find was that there were 500 cases of combined hyperthermia/hypothermia related child deaths from 1998-2008, the vast majority of which were hyperthermia from being left in the car. I didn't find a solid number of child hypothermia-related deaths.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I guess for me, if I'm not comfortable strapping my kids into car seats with the harness several inches too loose, then I am not comfortable strapping them in with a bulky coat. It's pretty much the same thing in the force of a crash.

I had to put DS's coat on backwards last night after we watched a parade. Now, even though I thought it was really cold, obviously it was no where near as cold as some of you are talking about. But really, it took all of several seconds to sit him in his seat, remove his coat, buckle the harness, and put his coat back on him. I'm honestly not getting how one could get hypothermia in that amount of time. No one is suggesting you leave then w/o any coverings at all - just that you don't put them between the straps and their body.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Um. Not a mathematician here but I think you are off by a couple of orders of magnitude. 2.5% of 300 million is 7 million NOT 76,000...my guess would be more like .025% Just saying.

Also, the odds of having a kid killed in car crash is .002% and the odds that that death is due to ejection? .00122%

1 in a Million is .0001%. So I guess we are really looking at a risk of 1 in several hundred thousand...right?
Jenne

ETA: I've been looking for the number of children who die each year from pneumonia/flu (both for personal decision making reasons and because I think it is germaine to this discussion) and think it would be interesting to see the comparison between that and ejection risk. But I haven't found any good numbers more recent than 1999 and I didn't want to compare apples and kumquats.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I certainly could be off...math is not my strong suit and I am 2 days post shoulder surgery so I'm under some heavy drugs :shy

But yes, death is rare, but those numbers don't count the numbers of injury--just death. I think the number given by NHTSA is that your odds of getting in a crash are 1:16. Now most of those are non-severe crashes, but car crashes are common and can happen at any time (my shoulder injury was from a crash in August, when I was rear-ended by a drunk teen travelling 75mph while coming home from work at 8am!).


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Oh, yes! I do not take issue with the 1:16 at all! It is just difficult (for me!) coming from a research based background to just accept what someone youtubes or blogs about as being a real risk. I *really* wish there were crash test studies that have proven or disproven this because that is evidence and not anecdote/theory based decision making.









I wish you a speedy recovery! Surgery is no fun! Get well soon...

Jenne


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *indie*
> 
> I mean, seriously, the OP is talking about negative 40 degrees and you all are telling her to wear thin microfleece or put a poncho on. Crazy. The risk of hypothermia is clearly higher than the theoretical (which nobody seems to be able to quantify) risk of ejection in the possibility of an accident.










In such extreme temperatures, it is vital to keep one's core warm. Taking off a coat in such extreme temps starts the heat loss and reduces core temp. I know that all posters have this child's best interests at heart, but I suspect that many do not understand what -40 degrees means. We are really talking about another world of cold here. My experience with -20 degrees (not counting wind chill!) is that within 60 seconds, the mucous in my nose hairs is frozen solid and crunches when I wipe my nose. My eyes sting like the dickens and weep involuntarily. I won't take my hat off for love or money, much less my coat. It can be difficult to exert myself if my mouth isn't covered (to warm the incoming air). In the event that I catch a chill, I am physically incapable of warming up without seriously exerting myself or going inside.

A few posters suggested warming up the car in advance. When temperatures are this cold, there is no 'warming' up the car. As the OP mentioned, you're lucky if you get the car to 30 degrees... and that's after a LONG time of driving around. Seat warmers are such a luxury.

I have to disagree with many of the responses. *I would NEVER strip my children to base layers in those temps to put them in a car seat*. I would use tons of layers and natural wool. Some folks don't use fleece because it is made of PET or similar plastics and treated with flame retardants. I would stick with natural fabrics that have low compression values, tighten those straps, and drive safely. The cost-benefit analysis of following 'protocol' is a wash in subzero temps.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jenne*
> 
> Also, the odds of having a kid killed in car crash is .002% and the odds that that death is due to ejection? .00122% 1 in a Million is .0001%. So I guess we are really looking at a risk of 1 in several hundred thousand...right?Jenne


And I think it's safe to assume that not all of those ejections were due to kids wearing thick coats. A lot of them were probably kids who weren't restrained at all, or whose straps were too loose, not because their coats were compressed, but just because their parents were not in the habit of tightening the straps sufficiently no matter what the kids were wearing. It would be interesting to know what percentage were kids who were wearing thick coats, but whose parents had tightened the straps as much as they could and were using the seat correctly - in other words, kids who died just because their coats were compressed an unexpected amount in an accident. My guess is that it would be a tiny percentage, maybe none in most years (maybe none ever.)


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebackpacks*
> 
> " rel="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/yeahthat.gif">
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for explaining just how cold it is. I don't think I'd ever leave my house. Car seat/coat problem solved.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebackpacks*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


i read through this entire thread and this sounds like sound advice to me. but i'm no expert. i am one of the few people who do no coats in car seats around here. i know other parents get their kids in the cars and go way faster than we do.

for those in 40 below 0 temperatures i have no experience or advice. but for those in more moderate climates, like chicagoland (of which i am also a resident) and without a van or a garage or a remote starter, you could maybe try warming up a blanket (in the dryer or a plug in electric blanket) to at least make it good and hot for those first few minutes that your kiddo is in the carseat without their coat on.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, I have to disagree. It does not regularly get -40* here (I have only seen it once in the past 2 winters) but we go regularly see -20 to -30*. We never do coats in the car seats. We don't have a garage, and we don't pre-heat the car. It works for us. I certainly understand the hesitancy, but a child is not going to get hypothermia in the two minutes it takes to buckle and cover with a coat and blankets.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> You can wear long underwear, then clothes with fleece over the top - as long as you dont have to loosen the straps to put the kid in, then its ok.
> 
> Instead of a coat, use a double layer carseat poncho on-top, or a coat on backwards (over the harness after its buckled tight), or just pile on blankets and when you get where you are going (the car will be warmed up at that point), get out of the carseat and put the coat on and then open the doors.


When you put the coat on after buckling them in, how do you make sure it will not come lose in an inpact? (my hypothermia concern)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Llyra*
> 
> We buckle the child into the seat, and then put the heavy coat on backwards, over the buckles, tucked in around the child. The child is safe, and warm, and there's not any hypothermia risk-- the child is only out of the coat for a few seconds.


See my above question.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom*
> 
> Also, note that belt webbing (like in the harness) stretches during a crash. Not like elastic, but surely the head-hole will be larger that it started out with. The force of the child's body will force the chest clip down and the "head hole" will become bigger.
> 
> ...


I can definitely see how a child can fit through the straps of a carseat., how do they fit through the head whole of the coat when ejected? Or does the coat stay on them?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


No, alot of the time my car never gets over freezing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elanorh*
> 
> I do know of a situation where some kids were buckled in and died of hypothermia (didn't have their coats on, high school kids driving desolate winter roads in Wyoming). The parents were told that the kids would have lived if they'd had their coats on to keep them warm 'til their wreck was noticed. They didn't die from their injuries, but from hypothermia (coupled with broken limbs or etc. preventing


I can totally see this happening

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PatioGardener*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Plug in my car almost every night from now until mid Feb.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2soren*
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm
> 
> ...


Yes there are many different ways to use a carseat improperly.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebackpacks*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thank you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I would like to make my decision based on facts, but none can be found.....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> Well, I have to disagree. It does not regularly get -40* here (I have only seen it once in the past 2 winters) but we go regularly see -20 to -30*. We never do coats in the car seats. We don't have a garage, and we don't pre-heat the car. It works for us. I certainly understand the hesitancy, but a child is not going to get hypothermia in the two minutes it takes to buckle and cover with a coat and blankets.


I believe -30F is close to -40C.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Just to give posters an idea of our weather....here is a video of weather that is similiar to the past four days or so here. (note:this is not my city) We have either snow tires or studded tires.


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## amyhulen (May 22, 2005)

You can always get a heated throw specifically designed for use in cars. They have a power supply that plugs right into your car.

Otherwise a small kids thermos with a built in straw and some hot cocoa will keep them warm while your cars engine warms up.


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *momtoS*
> 
> Just to give posters an idea of our weather....here is a video of weather that is similiar to the past four days or so here. (note:this is not my city) We have either snow tires or studded tires.


Ah, you deal with white-outs, as well. You probably have an emergency kit in your car, just like us. We don't take chances when outside of the cities, towns, and interstates. When the weather is this bad, we're far more likely to end up in a snow bank, than a collision with another car. My biggest fears are getting stuck out of cell range and/or not being able to (re-) start the car.

When we're just putzing around locally, though, this isn't such a big concern.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

For those with super cold weather... one of the coat tricks *does NOT involve taking the coat off*- so you could consider using that...

To do it you have your child get in the carseat with the coat ON and put their arms in the harness. You unzip/button the coat, pull the harness over the zipper of the coat and buckle the straps and clips and then you can rezip the coat. 
So the harness is actually hidden underneath the coat.

There is some bulk behind the child, but it's a good option. Some coats work better for this- depending on what fabric they have around the neck.

I also wish there was more research or just dummy videos with this. My kids have a few 'slippery' coats that I worry about. They are not bulky at all, but just slippery and my dd is fairly petite. Sometimes I worry she's slop right thru the harness straps. It's not really a tightness issue, but when I see how that happens with a thin slippery coat it really makes sense that this could happen with a bulky winter coat. I just also wish there was something more concrete to show the skeptics (like my husband).

Jessica


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

> I believe -30F is close to -40C.


-40*C = -40* F 

I have seen the "coat trick" that involves unzipping and re-zipping but that takes way too long for me, and I don't like the bulk behind the child. I find it much easier to just take the coat of quickly and tuck it around them. We also have a basket of blankets near the coats in the house, and we can carry warm blankets out to the car (and take those into the store so they stay warm).


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## JamieB (Apr 1, 2008)

I am really having a hard time understanding this thread.

So many people are saying "you have no idea how cold it gets here" and so on with people replying "but I live in an area that gets colder than you and I STILL make sure there is not a lot of bulk between my kid and the straps". Northern Ontario here people, trust me, it gets very cold. My key fob is broken so I can't use my remote start and my DH parks in he garage, not me. It is doable.

Also, for people asking for proof and statistics, i'm assuming you've read your carseat manual through? Is in not proof enough when the carseat manufacturer says not to do it? Not every manual does but some do. Why not call the company that makes your carseat and ask what they recommend? Most companies will tell you not to use bulky clothes. I am working on getting this information right now.

Isn't the "carseat coat trick" a happy medium for everyone? It doesn't involve taking anything off at all and take maybe an extra fifteen seconds per seat. Wha reason is there not to do this if there is even a slight possibility that the risks of bulky coats are real? I don't really see how people can still be arguing this.

Also, I don't really see how flu/pneumonia relates to this discussion at all? It's not like anyone here is recommending bringing kids out in t-shirts or anything? And even if they were, you catch the flu and pneumonia through viruses and/or bacteria, not the weather....


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Jamie- Sorry for being unclear (and my edit was!) but DH and I have been having a discussion recently about risks and safety. That discussion was on my mind. It seems to me that overall wearing a coat (or not!) in a carseat is a relatively small risk born out by the stats on ejection from 2009. Similarly, I was looking for stats on deaths in children for flu/pnuemonia to compare with the risk of death from the various vaccines. I see how though it could be construed that I was suggesting that there is a link between not wearing a coat and flu/pnumonia. There is not.









I guess I cannot help you understand why I prefer data to speculation...even from the carseat company. Life is full of risks and I just try to understand what is a real danger and what is something that is only perceived to be a danger. Data helps with this distinction for me and for the decision making I prefer to do. I cannot speak to what other thread posters may or may not feel about data and decision making.

Obviously, this is an issue that people feel strongly about.







I respect that we all have things that are near and dear to us. I guess I also don't see where people are arguing. Just giving their protocols and opinions.







Isn't that how we all learn? Having lived somewhere where winter temps were regularly 20-50 below, I have much empathy with mamas trying to figure out what is best for their families. As an adult those temperatures were dangerous to me, let alone a child. (It is only logical, at 32 degrees water freezes. Blood is largely made of water. At -20 F it takes 1 *minute* of skin exposure for frostbite to begin. That means from 98.6 degrees to 32 in 60 seconds.) So, for these mamas it is really big decision to not put a coat on a child in the car.

Jenne


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Right, well, I can attest to the fact that I have 3 kids, on my third winter in Alaska, and none of us has ever had frostbite  And nobody whines about the cold. Some mornings on the way to school DD will say "WOW it's cold mom" but that's the extent. If it was a huge problem with uncomfortable screaming children, I would sympathize, but so far it has not come up, and I will continue on with removing coats and recommending that others do so as well. Of course, I understand why other mamas in similar or colder/windier climates would be concerned about the cold--it's very hard to deal with.

I suppose my kids would be more at risk for exposure & hypothermia when walking around the neighborhood or playing in the snow (granted we only do this if it's above -10 or so). I have friends in WA saying it's so cold that their kids will get hypothermia without a coat (and I giggle, I admit, as we moved from WA to AK and it seems like the tropics there!).


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

Well stated, Jenne. I am with you on this one. I cannot speak for others, though. YMMV. We generally make decisions based on a cost/benefit analysis after doing much research. Clearly, coats with high compression values are out, but this doesn't include all coats. Infinitesimal risks do not keep me up at night. For me, empirical evidence outweighs anecdotal advice... even when it is coming from the government or a car seat manufacturer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jenne*
> 
> I guess I cannot help you understand why I prefer data to speculation...even from the carseat company. Life is full of risks and I just try to understand what is a real danger and what is something that is only perceived to be a danger. Data helps with this distinction for me and for the decision making I prefer to do. I cannot speak to what other thread posters may or may not feel about data and decision making.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

There is no real-world data for this because there is so much other misuse that goes on with car seats. There is no way to tell which specific mis-uses are worse than others, so we must trust to the car seat manufacturers and gov't agencies regulations.

Every manual will specify that the straps must be tight. Every one, a few specifically mention coats, but the second you start loosening the straps to accomodate a coat, you are going against manufacturers directions. Those straps are the only thing keeping your child from flying out the window in a collision. If you are worried about the cold in the 5 seconds it takes to unzip and rezip their coat, aren't you worried about them being ejected from the vehicle in the cold? Because that's the worse-case scenario to me.

I get that it's hard and awkward when it's cold. I have 3 kids during the day to strap in, and while we don't see the huge negative temps for long, we do get them. In fact, I used to take the coats off the daycare kids and stopped because they were shivering (I think this whole thing is harder when you don't get the dress the kids from the skin out.) so switched to the coat trick so that they'd have a layer between themselves and the seat.

For those of us who are techs, we are obligated to teach best practice. Best practice is to never put a child in a seat with a coat on. I personally buy a 'car coat' every year, (I look for a layer of fleece with a thin windbreaking layer over it) because it will fit in the harness as-is, without needing adjustment.

If you choose to do otherwise, you need to do so with the full knowledge that you are going against manufacturer's recommendations.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JamieB*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


It is -25 here today....I am going to try the coat trick with dd2. dd1 is in school all and I am unable to reach her seat to do this trick.


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## JamieB (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jenne*
> 
> Jamie- Sorry for being unclear (and my edit was!) but DH and I have been having a discussion recently about risks and safety. That discussion was on my mind. It seems to me that overall wearing a coat (or not!) in a carseat is a relatively small risk born out by the stats on ejection from 2009. Similarly, I was looking for stats on deaths in children for flu/pnuemonia to compare with the risk of death from the various vaccines. I see how though it could be construed that I was suggesting that there is a link between not wearing a coat and flu/pnumonia. There is not.
> 
> ...


 Sorry for the confusion for the flu/pneumonia thing







A lot of people actually do think that....

I think we are miscommunicating here a little bit. It can be so hard online sometimes. I am not saying that you shouldn't want actual data over speculation. Not saying that at all. In fact, I have a post on another forum asking for people to link me with some reall data and risks from before I even saw this thread. All I am saying is that since it is possible that there might be a risk, and there is a way to keep your kids warm AND minimize that risk (the coat trick), why not do it? What reason is there not to do it? This is the arguing I am talking about. Bolded mine, NOBODY is telling people to put their kids in the car without a coat. Maybe in the warmer places people are using ponchos or whatever but that is still a covering. And a fleece coat is still a coat. In fact I think if we tested it it woud probably be warmer to be in thin layer and fleece than a puffy coat that is full of air and a shirt underneath.

I realize not everyone is a fan of the coa trick because of the bulk but I think it is safe to say that it is a pretty happy medium/better safe than sorry solution.


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## redvlagrl (Dec 2, 2009)

I live where it is fairly cold, but not frigid. yesterday it was -9 but very windy. I had to take off my mitts to buckle in Dd and by the time I was done (1 min?) I was in serious pain. It's quite regularly -15- -20C during the winter.

Now, I am really into safety. I bought a car seat poncho (2 actually) and they are not enough for us here. I tried the coat trick and it doesn't materially help, IMO.

We do have *down* coats though. I find I can de-puff them very well so that there is basically only a thin layer of fabric (and de-puffed down) between teh straps and DD. I have tried the test and she passes.

So perhaps this is an option for those in even colder climes. DD has the Gap warmest coat (boys' one seems to be warmer - that's what she has this year) and DS has a down filled columbia snowsuit.

I would imagine the real danger is the synthetic/cheaper puffy stuff which you cannot de-puff except under accident conditions.

This works well for us and I feel comfortable with my balance between hypothermia and compression.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I know this thread is a little old, but what if your kid has a thermalite snowsuit? DDs snowsuit is super thin but really warm. It's thin enough that I can easily feel her bones through it. I haven't had to loosen the straps to get her in. Is she still safe?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

As long as it passes the test (ie put her in the seat in the snowsuit, tighten the straps, then without loosening the straps take her out, take of the snowsuit, buckle her up and see how much slack is in the harness) it's fine. DS has one that passes as well.


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## khaoskat (May 11, 2006)

Actually, a TV show here just did a story on this. It is called "The Doctors". I was amazed that they actually put out the negatives/unsafeness of heavy coats in carseats and explained why, with somewhat of a demo.


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## myk (Nov 24, 2006)

i tried the "coat trick" and couldn't do up the coat around the belt. having the coat undone the whole time wasn't a good option, either - my car doesn't warm up significantly and blankets didn't seem to help. it's been getting down to -30c every night for eons.. it's frustrating knowing that the real right-now risk is hypothermia, and the might-happen risk is child restraint failure due to snowsuit use. i'm glad i have an infant seat with a "shower cap" style cover for my soon-to-be-newborn (i'll have her in a polar fleece sleeper, the cover, and blankets in between), but what options are there for a preschool or young school age child in a booster? is there a reasonable equivilent to the "shower cap" cover for older kids that won't interfere with the belt, AND is suitable for the -30/-40 environment?


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Someone posted on this or a similar thread that they experimented with a down jacket and found that it passed the test. She was able to get the harness just as tight with the jacket on as without. If buying a new coat is an option, that might be something to try for your older one.


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## brittaytaylor (Nov 21, 2013)

that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. id much rather have my child be cold for a few minutes while im outside than to have them get injured or worse, die in a car accident all because i had a coat on them. ... you can always let them have their coat on outside then as you sitting them each into their seat, take the coat off. buckle them then put the coat on them backwards. as a parent it is your job to protect your children. and it is PROVEN that coats and carseats dont mix... why would you even want to risk it?


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