# Why no Elderberry/Echinacea for this flu season?



## highlandmum (Jan 20, 2008)

So, I've been searching through old threads about what is good for immune system boosting and keeping healthy during cold/flu season, and I've read several times that this year in particular we shouldn't rely on Elderberry/Echinacea blends (Sambucol/Sambugaurd/etc.)....but nothing that says why....
I am just wondering why, especially because this typically is our go-to first line of defense! Yikes!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

because of the strain and how it affects the body. Elderberry could induce a cytokine storm. This is usually only an issue for people with pretty robust immune systems when the response goes out of control and is unchecked by the body (which is why this flu is said to be most dangerous for healthy adults....infants and the elderly aren't being hit as hard.) In certain cases a healthy immune system can be dangerous. This is *supposedly* one of those times.


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## highlandmum (Jan 20, 2008)

I see! Thanks for the info


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## MamatoPeach (Nov 15, 2008)

So what is recommended instead?


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
because of the strain and how it affects the body. Elderberry could induce a cytokine storm.

I've read conflicting things about elderberry and cytokine storm.

Basically because elderberry is an immune system modulator and not an immue system activator that there was no reason to believe it would induce a cytokine storm.

Secondly, I have read that elderberry itself is okay, but the commercial preparations like Sambucol are not.

Lastly I read that it was okay to use except if you already had the flu and the accompanying fever.

So I really don't know what to believe.

What about astragaus?


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

there is absolutely conflicting information on elderberry syrup and cytokine storms. There are reputable sources stating it can and does increase cytokines. There is also plenty of info stating that we shouldn't be worried as it's an immuno-modulator. In reference to my post that's neither here nor there. I'm answering why everyone is saying not to use it, not what I believe to be true







. That's the reason.

If we got the swine flu I would personally be using other tools and given the ambiguity of the info I wouldn't recommend elderberry extract to anyone though I generally do like it. Nothing good comes from fear and any good it might do would be undone IMO if people were obsessing over the possibility of a cytokine storm!


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## dessismama (Mar 3, 2005)

I think elderberry is OK to use together with vitamin D, curcumin, and resveratrol. Most experts believe these four compounds together should do the trick. Elderberry in addition to raising cytokines prevents the flu virus from propagating by apparently doing something to its spikes. I have had great luck with elderberry from the real flu to stomach viruses. I swear by it, and I am taking it as we speak for some upper respiratory virus (no fever but feeling like I have the flu), so I guess it could be the swine flu but I doubt it. Real flu is a nightmare for me and it is never "mild" but with elderberries I am usually better in 3 days.


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Just talked to my friend and she said her herbalist said to take elderberry but NOT echinacea


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## highlandmum (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies! I saw this and thought anyone reading this thread might be interested. It is about Cytokine storms and things that help!


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *highlandmum* 
Thanks for all the replies! I saw this and thought anyone reading this thread might be interested. It is about Cytokine storms and things that help!

The link you provided states

Quote:

Turmeric, Fish Oil and *Aspirin* Provide Anti-Inflammatory Protection
However, I just read the complete opposite concerning asprin HERE......

Also HERE

Just google "aspirin 1918 pandemic"....a bunch of info comes up. If it strikes us, we will be using Tylenol, if anything.


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## highlandmum (Jan 20, 2008)

Yeah, I actually didn't pay attention to that part, just because my kids are too little for aspirin, and I can't take it because of breastfeeding, and so I figured we'd use tylenol too.


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## SageR (Jun 12, 2005)

I'm trying to stock up my medicine cabinet for the winter. Normally I would include some kind of elderberry product and some kind of echinacea product. Now, I'm seeing maybe we should avoid those things in the case of swine flu. But my questions are how would I know if I am dealing with H1N1 or some other strain, and if it is possible to know that, what _do_ we take?


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## FrannieP (Sep 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SageR* 
how would I know if I am dealing with H1N1 or some other strain,

The only way to know for sure is to get tested.

Quote:

and if it is possible to know that, what _do_ we take?
There are lots of suggestions here:
Natural Treatments For Swine Flu

fp


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## 71newmom (Sep 29, 2007)

Anyone know the safety of curcumin and resveratol if pregnant? I'm trying to come up with a "plan" for if I do come down with H1N1, or think I may have it. I'm due in December and the thought of it really scares me.


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## SandyMom (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *71newmom* 
Anyone know the safety of curcumin and resveratol if pregnant? I'm trying to come up with a "plan" for if I do come down with H1N1, or think I may have it. I'm due in December and the thought of it really scares me.

CURCUMIN -
See precautions at the bottom of page:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1128379

Resveratol I haven't seen anything on.

Sandy


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

When it comes to Elderberry...are they just talking commercially available (and likely standardized) extracts or preparations (like Sambucol) vs whole herb preparations (like the Elderberry Syrup I make at home). Elderberry is one of our main herbs around here - it's one of the main tools in my kit. Just wondering if they were making the distinction.


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## dessismama (Mar 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pampered_mom* 
When it comes to Elderberry...are they just talking commercially available (and likely standardized) extracts or preparations (like Sambucol) vs whole herb preparations (like the Elderberry Syrup I make at home). Elderberry is one of our main herbs around here - it's one of the main tools in my kit. Just wondering if they were making the distinction.

I do not think it makes a difference--both do the same thing in the body, rev up the immune system and apparently prevent the flu virus from replicating too efficiently.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dessismama* 
I do not think it makes a difference--both do the same thing in the body, rev up the immune system and apparently prevent the flu virus from replicating too efficiently.

Except that one is extracted, standardized and removed from the matrix of the plant. The other is found within it's context - the berry, flower, or leaf - that contains both the active constituent that we're aware of and very likely a host of others that we're not. One exists within it's traditional checks and balances - the other does not. I'm just wondering if there might be protective mechanisms in place with something like a whole herb preparation that might ward off against some of the troubling results of something like Sambucol (like a preparation of Sassafrass from the whole root bark or high doses of safrole).


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

I second the question of a pp who asked what to take at the beginning of the flu, b/c how are you really going to "know" what strain you have--it is worth consideration to ask this and really think about it. And if you treat the early symptomes with echinacea and black elderberry extract in the early stages, could you possible prevent a (theoretical) cytokine storm before it even starts? I have to wonder. The researchers and scientists don't really know all that much about cytokine storms. Important questions to ask.

I know one can be tested for flu but how soon can one be tested after start of symptoms, how accurate are those results, how much is the test going to cost, etc. And are you really going to go in and get everyone in your family tested at every sign of the flu over the next several months? I know I won't.

My plan, which I have researched and feel confident in, is to focus on boosting everyone's immune systems so we are more prone toward health than disease. I am also not concerned with suffering deaths from the flu, and I have already had one child have pneumonia as a complication from catching whooping cough two years ago (he was under 1 year at the time), so I guess I am not as prone to worry as we have had pretty much "worse case" scenarios over here related to common illnesses. Complications mean hospital, which means medicines and then you come out of it eventually.

I will have on hand ingredients for a weekly soup of miso, veggies and immune-boosting mushrooms, codonopsis and astragalus root. (based on Aviva Jill Romm's recipe from one of her books). At the first sign of flu symptoms, I have homeopathic Oscillococcinum to help reduce the severity and duration of the flu symptoms, as well as calming herbs and ones specifically to address the lungs and nourishing teas. Garlic lemonade helps, too.

As for other homeopaths for flus, I found this info. interesting regarding homeopaths and the 1918 flu epidemic (link)

I side with the NVIC and Barbara Loe Fisher that there is no evidence at this time to suggest there is in reality an imminent epidemic on the horizon that would be any worse than any other flu season we've had in most recent years. Cytokine storms are not even proven to accompany all cases of the swine flu. As Wikipedia states:

_"Recent reports of high mortality among healthy young adults in the 2009 swine flu outbreak has led to speculation that cytokine storms *could* be responsible for these deaths.[8] However, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have indicated that symptoms reported from this strain so far are similar to those of normal seasonal flu,[9] with the CDC stating that there is "insufficient information to date about clinical complications of this variant of swine-origin influenza A (H1N1) virus infection."_ (Bolding is mine)

Because of the lack of solid evidence that Sambucol and black elderberry extract preparations like it are linked to cytokine storms, I am taking the chance of using it during the flu season. There is more evidence in support of it for differing strains of flu that against it. (From Sambucol's site)


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## naturalmom08 (Dec 13, 2008)

If you suspect you have the swine flu, you can and should be tested right at the onset of symptoms. If you're looking to get a dose of the tamiflu, then that needs to be taken within the first 24-48 hours, so it is encouraged to be tested early. SO I would probably wait until being tested to take sambucs or echinacea until after you get the results. I think that we will continue to using echinacea (I use the Sweet Echinacea drops for young children) for things like run of the mill colds and such. But if dd gets a fever, I will definitely hold off giving her anything until having her tested.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmom08* 
If you suspect you have the swine flu, you can and should be tested right at the onset of symptoms.

Just curious why you think so?


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmom08* 
If you suspect you have the swine flu, you can and should be tested right at the onset of symptoms. If you're looking to get a dose of the tamiflu, then that needs to be taken within the first 24-48 hours, so it is encouraged to be tested early. SO I would probably wait until being tested to take sambucs or echinacea until after you get the results. I think that we will continue to using echinacea (I use the Sweet Echinacea drops for young children) for things like run of the mill colds and such. But if dd gets a fever, I will definitely hold off giving her anything until having her tested.

They are not even doing routine testing here. According to local health officials the CDC is not encouraging them to just test everyone, unless they specifically ask the test- however- anyone that currently has the flu is just presumed to have the swine flu.


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## dachshundqueen (Dec 17, 2004)

The CDC is overrun with requests for confirmation right now. They can do the test in the office to determine type A or not, but cannot confirm further than that. We tested positive for A in the summer after returning from Coronado, but no novel tests were run. We took Tamiflu and it was hard to come by.

DH was forced (by me) to take the osci. and he got better very quickly by comparison to the rest of the family. I wasn't aware I was sick at first as I was taking care of the other three and I got hit the worst.

We did take some form of reddish cough syrup my FIL brought us, but no echinnacea. IB not aspirin, but it took 3 days for my 103 fever to break.

Liz


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I had influenza around easter time exposed a billion ppl including my family when I said I had a 'fever' which was only a 100 degree and did get to 101 but to aleve because it lasted longer & kept my fever down . I did have those awful chest pains felt like I was suffocating so I went in & they swabbed my nose said I had influenza and had me have tamiflu . Took it right that day and I was actually feeling okay just a bit tired after that awful chest feeling . Doctor said I was having bronchospasms and tried to get me to use an inhaler which I did but that just burned my throat .

So now I do want to find a way to prevent the influenza for me & my son because I wonder if i had it before but then now with all this scare then when ppl get it ends up scaring them. Then I had to request a swab to see if I had the flu because I was tired of getting diagnosed by bronchitis because that's what they thought because they thought i had the flu shot but when I told them I didn't then they were like oh we better check for it then .

I just wonder how many bronchitis ppl are influenza ppl ?

I had no influenza issues for like 6 yrs and now I want to make sure to stay healthy for both me & my son.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
I had influenza around easter time exposed a billion ppl including my family when I said I had a 'fever' which was only a 100 degree and did get to 101 but to aleve because it lasted longer & kept my fever down . I did have those awful chest pains felt like I was suffocating so I went in & they swabbed my nose said I had influenza and had me have tamiflu . Took it right that day and I was actually feeling okay just a bit tired after that awful chest feeling . Doctor said I was having bronchospasms and tried to get me to use an inhaler which I did but that just burned my throat .


Just to note: lobelia and thyme are two herbs that has been shown to ease bronchospasms/bronchitis effectively. Of course, if one is not familiar with herbs and how to take them, it's important to consult with a knowledgable care provider about using them.

I'm sorry to hear about your symptoms--it sounds miserable!


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Anyone else tuning in to Michael Tierra's FREE webinar on H1N1 and preventing/treating it with herbs?? (I am, I am!) It's at 6 p.m. PST. Google for a link.

There will be a call-in portion for questions at the end and If I get the chance, I want to ask specifically about H1N1, echinacea, and elderberry extract.


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## Nikavery (Oct 20, 2009)

Sorry to maybe be a bit off topic with this thread now, but just curious if anyone knows the safety of using elderberry while pregnant?

Thank you!


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## k9sarchik (Nov 11, 2006)

Elderberry studies on H1N1 and other flu viruses:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65eb910dd3fbfe

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...gdbfrom=pubmed

I will certainly be using Elderberry extract for the flu.


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## naturalmom08 (Dec 13, 2008)

So since my last post and reading of this thread, I spoke with a friend of mine who is a doctor. What he explained to me was that there is some concern about the swine flu mutating and causing a cytokine storm. However, according to him, this is not the case at this current point in time. So right now it is fine to take any immune enhancing herbs, like elderberry extract or echinacea. My dd has since caught a nasty cold, and I've been giving her the Sweet Echinacea drops, and she's done just fine with it. So I guess the idea is to keep your herbs on hand and just be cautious and try to keep up to date with the info coming out. But right now there doesn't seem to be any cytokine storm effect.


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## zeph11 (Oct 8, 2009)

The best reasoning I've read about using elderberry for h1n1 is this.

Elderberry is not used primarily as an immune booster (to heighten immune response), it's used as an anti-viral, to disarm a virus before it ever has a chance to infect. Taking elderberry early or as a preventative should then decrease the viral load your immune system will have to cope with. An immune system that is coping with a lightened viral load should hypothetically not be overwhelmed and not reach point where an extreme response (like a cytokine storm) becomes likely.

I plan to use elderberry early and often!


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## fazer6 (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm due to give birth in late Nov/early Dec and family are coming out on 22nd for Christmas. Now we are low risk for getting flu (it's warm in Spain, most number of sunshine hours in Europe here so loads of vit D, plus we work from home so don't come into contact with many people) but my mum works at an afterschool club so comes into contact with loads of kids all the time, and my sister is a primary school teacher and gets ill every year from the children. Last year my sister was so ill she could hardly eat a thing on christmas day. My dad is asmatic so will be getting the flu shots. As for the rest of the family what should I tell them to do? I do not want to have ill people bringing germs here (pregnancy after a loss sure does highten paranoia), so what's the best for them to do now to prevent illness?

Elderbery, echinacea or vit d (they're in the UK so not so much sun)? Also how much?


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## es1967 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fazer6* 
I'm due to give birth in late Nov/early Dec and family are coming out on 22nd for Christmas. Now we are low risk for getting flu (it's warm in Spain, most number of sunshine hours in Europe here so loads of vit D, plus we work from home so don't come into contact with many people) but my mum works at an afterschool club so comes into contact with loads of kids all the time, and my sister is a primary school teacher and gets ill every year from the children. Last year my sister was so ill she could hardly eat a thing on christmas day. My dad is asmatic so will be getting the flu shots. As for the rest of the family what should I tell them to do? I do not want to have ill people bringing germs here (pregnancy after a loss sure does highten paranoia), so what's the best for them to do now to prevent illness?

Elderbery, echinacea or vit d (they're in the UK so not so much sun)? Also how much?

There have been numerous threads talking about building your immune system that are worth reading-I'd say in the last 2 months. I've made a list of things we do:

Green Smoothies (add in lots of green, frozen fruit and superfoods)
Coconut oil
Lots and lots and lots of garlic.
Vitamin C-Sodium ascorbate-when people around me are sick or I feel like I'm getting something we take larger doses
Kefir,yogurt (I make Kefir smoothies for my 3yr old and he loves them)
Elderberry
Vitamin D drops (just started taking these)- we live in Florida and spend alot of time outdoors so I'm pretty sure were getting enough
apple cider vinegar
Juice fresh carrots and apples/other veggies
Superfood by Dr Schulze (love all his products)

Those are some of the things we do pretty consistently. Check out the other threads.


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## fazer6 (Jan 26, 2009)

I'll have a nosey round this section then and see what I dig up. It was on my 'to do' list to find out what I should tell them to do, and then I saw the message at the top where the swine flu comments should be made and then I realised this section existed! The herbal and supplement world is quite new to me. I only really started thinking about this when I got pregnant and found out about RRL, EPO....

Just out of interest how do you take your garlic? Does it have to be raw? I've seen a recipe for roasting it and then spreading on bread which looks tasty. Would essentially treating a clove like a tablet and swallowing with water be OK?


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## es1967 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fazer6* 
I'll have a nosey round this section then and see what I dig up. It was on my 'to do' list to find out what I should tell them to do, and then I saw the message at the top where the swine flu comments should be made and then I realised this section existed! The herbal and supplement world is quite new to me. I only really started thinking about this when I got pregnant and found out about RRL, EPO....

Just out of interest how do you take your garlic? Does it have to be raw? I've seen a recipe for roasting it and then spreading on bread which looks tasty. Would essentially treating a clove like a tablet and swallowing with water be OK?

I try to put it into alot of things I am cooking- soups,salads etc etc. When I was sick w a cold this past week I made myself garlic tea-someone posted the recipe. There is actually an entire thread on how people are taking their garlic. I have roasted it in the oven and love it that way too. I think swallowing it whole might not be as good as chopping it up fine. Check out the other thread. There were some really good ideas. Some interesting threads on kefir floating around too.


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## dessismama (Mar 3, 2005)

Used elderberry on my whole family when my older three kids had the swine flu last month. We are still using it preventatively at the start of a cold or what-have-you. I swear by it!! DH and I did not get the flu in spite of prolonged (2 weeks) exposure.


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deir* 
Just talked to my friend and she said her herbalist said to take elderberry but NOT echinacea


that is what I was told just two days ago.


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## cadeandkaleysmama (Oct 24, 2009)

Not sure where to post this. kinda new to natural meds. Daughter more than likely has swine flu. Doctor said that she has all the symptoms ,told me that the test is only 50% accurate. 5 days into she has horrible cough. She's not tired.. won't rest still has all the energy of a 5 year old. I have had her on Mucinex Delsym Motrin/Tylenol. The cough is going right through the cough suppresants.
I read a bit on the Sambucol and found it interesting but I have no idea what Cytokine count would be now. Scared to give her it because of the whole cytokine storm issue. What I have on hand is Grapeseed Oil Extract ( nutribiotic) about a year old. Emergenc-e packs adult strength and DH bought Sambucol home while I was reading this thread. What should I give her to help her get better and to help with her cough and if anybody has any get better recipes ... would love to have them Thanks from one mom to another


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadeandkaleysmama* 
Not sure where to post this. kinda new to natural meds. Daughter more than likely has swine flu. Doctor said that she has all the symptoms ,told me that the test is only 50% accurate. 5 days into she has horrible cough. She's not tired.. won't rest still has all the energy of a 5 year old. I have had her on Mucinex Delsym Motrin/Tylenol. The cough is going right through the cough suppresants.
I read a bit on the Sambucol and found it interesting but I have no idea what Cytokine count would be now. Scared to give her it because of the whole cytokine storm issue. What I have on hand is Grapeseed Oil Extract ( nutribiotic) about a year old. Emergenc-e packs adult strength and DH bought Sambucol home while I was reading this thread. What should I give her to help her get better and to help with her cough and if anybody has any get better recipes ... would love to have them Thanks from one mom to another









Sinupret is safe for children of all ages and is helpful during the cold or flu. Dr. Sears recommends this to his patients.

From his site: _Not only does it relieve nasal and chest congestion and help clear out mucus, it also boosts the body's own immune response to infections to help clear them out faster. It comes as a liquid or capsules. For more information visit www.BionoricaUSA.com. Click here to find a retailer in your area._ I found mine at Wal-Mart, of all places.

I have a bottle of this on hand, in addition to black elderberry extract. I am unconcerned with cytokine storms. They are theoretical only at this point and no evidence shows that anyone has had one in connection with H1N1/swine flu.

Vitamin C is great in addition, lots of fluids help like soups and warm herbal teas.

I bet your daughter feels better soon; I have heard a lot of people get this and it passes in about a week and a half and is usually mild--my sister's family just got over it. Sending healing thoughts your way


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fazer6* 

Just out of interest how do you take your garlic? Does it have to be raw? I've seen a recipe for roasting it and then spreading on bread which looks tasty. Would essentially treating a clove like a tablet and swallowing with water be OK?

Couple of ways.

One way I like (and I am funny this way







) is to push one clove (one piece of the whole bulb) through a garlic press onto a spoon. I drizzle honey on top of that and eat it! The honey cuts some of the spice from the garlic, and it tastes good. Of course, I get total garlic breath from this, but I usually eat garlic this way when I am sick, so not really going out dancing afterward







I may eat 3-4 cloves a day that way, and boy, it helps clear out mucus and I always feel better in a day or two eating it that way during a bad cold or flu.

Another remedy is garlic lemonade. You'll find recipes online, lots of people make it. I use a quart jar (4 cups) of water boiled, drop in 4-5 minced cloves of garlic, let steep at least 20 minutes, longer if desired, strain out garlic, add lemon juice and honey and voila! Garlic lemonade. My kids drink it, too, so it must taste good.







(Sometimes I substitute ginger in for the garlic, and that is nice too and great during cold/flu)

Last, garlic oil on the feet. You make it, rub it on at night, put on socks, and then have a garlic taste in your mouth in the morning. Really good for the lungs! I learned about it here: http://www.learningherbs.com/garlic_remedy.html

I love garlic, anyway it comes. Raw, sauteed, baked, you name it. It's all good for ya!


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

Have you all seen this article? Knowing little else, I was/am planning on using elderberry if we get sick.

Elderberry flavonoids bind to and prevent H1N1 infection in vitro.

What kind of elderberry should I buy? From reading this thread I see that the (synthetic?) kind from Walgreens isn't good. We have Whole Foods here that hopefully will sell it, and one other health food store that has a large supplements/herbal section. I also saw several kinds listed on amazon.com and I had no clue what strength or type to purchase!


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## es1967 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44* 
Have you all seen this article? Knowing little else, I was/am planning on using elderberry if we get sick.

Elderberry flavonoids bind to and prevent H1N1 infection in vitro.

What kind of elderberry should I buy? From reading this thread I see that the (synthetic?) kind from Walgreens isn't good. We have Whole Foods here that hopefully will sell it, and one other health food store that has a large supplements/herbal section. I also saw several kinds listed on amazon.com and I had no clue what strength or type to purchase!

I'm using Natural Sources Elderberry Concentrate but wish I knew what the best one to buy is?? This one is unsweetened and we just add it to our drinks. My 3 yr old loves it too.


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## cadeandkaleysmama (Oct 24, 2009)

Thanks Greenthumb!!! I am taking the Sambucol and grapeseed fruit oil for me I will get the stuff you suggested I went and bought some osicilloum( spelled totally wrong) and made some butternut soup with way too much onion ginger and garlic. DD is doing better not coughing near as much but now I'm sick and I can't be sick or the house will fall down







I guess DD figures that she has to get well so I quit making her try stuff she doesn't like. I'll try the garlic lemonade next. Thanks for the healing thoughts


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## es1967 (Oct 31, 2007)

We have the Sinupret for kids as well. DS really loves taking it. Someone on this forum recommended it about a year ago and it worked really well for my son. It really helped w his congestion. I need to get another bottle b/c its since expired. You can even get it at Walmart which really surprised me since its natural and made in Germany.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadeandkaleysmama* 
Thanks Greenthumb!!! I am taking the Sambucol and grapeseed fruit oil for me I will get the stuff you suggested I went and bought some osicilloum( spelled totally wrong) and made some butternut soup with way too much onion ginger and garlic. DD is doing better not coughing near as much but now I'm sick and I can't be sick or the house will fall down







I guess DD figures that she has to get well so I quit making her try stuff she doesn't like. I'll try the garlic lemonade next. Thanks for the healing thoughts

Glad the suggestions helped you








Ugh, sick Mama is no fun, either!!
Hope you get feeling better soon.
(looks like u r well stocked...that flu bettah watch out!!)


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

question about elderberry there is H1N1 going around our apartments so we more likely have been exposed and I have immunity care chapter elderberry lonzenge or should I get liquid and should i start having my family take them even though we aren't sick but I did get a cold sore forming which is always a sign a virus is on it's way for me ?


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

We wil lbe using elderberry but NOT echinechea. After researching it, I am comfortable that it suppresses viral replication enough to the point that cytokine storms should not be an issue. HOWEVER, starting it after you have become ill can cause the problem. So we are doing with it twice a day, and if exposed to a virus we dose higher. I am also going sodium ascorbate, and I have oscillio, curcumin and piperine on hand should it be needed.

I make my elderberry syrup at home. I calculated it out, and it saves me about $140 a gallon.


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krankedyann* 
I make my elderberry syrup at home. I calculated it out, and it saves me about $140 a gallon.

Care to share your recipe?


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krankedyann* 
We wil lbe using elderberry but NOT echinechea. After researching it, I am comfortable that it suppresses viral replication enough to the point that cytokine storms should not be an issue. HOWEVER, starting it after you have become ill can cause the problem. So we are doing with it twice a day, and if exposed to a virus we dose higher. I am also going sodium ascorbate, and I have oscillio, curcumin and piperine on hand should it be needed.

I make my elderberry syrup at home. I calculated it out, and it saves me about $140 a gallon.

Do you have any links about starting after you become ill causing a problem? I'm reading and hearing from my naturopath not to use it preventatively and only to use it at the onset of symptoms. I wish all of this was more clear cut.

To the PP: Elderberry syrup is easy to make:
1 cup fresh/frozen elderberries or 1/2 a cup dried
3 cups water
1 cup honey.

Bring the water and elderberries to a boil and then reduce and simmer 30 - 40 minutes until the water is reduced to about 1/2.
Remove from heat, mash berries, strain through a strainer and discard berries.
Add honey while elderberry juice is warm so it dissolves.
Put in jars (I use mason) and store in fridge.
I've read you can also freeze it and can it (20 minutes in a hot water bath).
We just make what we can use within about a month and keep frozen berries on hand.

hth
Karen


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## essnce629 (Oct 26, 2005)

Can anyone please explain why echinacea is not good to take with H1N1? Links?

My 6 year old son was sick two weeks ago with some type of virus, although I don't know if it was H1N1. He had his highest fever ever (103.8), cough, headache, chills, extreme fatigue, and he said he felt dizzy. It hit really fast (he was fine at a birthday party in the afternoon and by early evening he was falling asleep during dinner). I ended up treating right away with homepathic oscillo, vitamin C powder, and echinacea. His fever was completely gone after 24 hours and he was back to normal, except for the cough that lingered a little over a week. Could this have been H1N1 even though I've heard the fever lasts around 3 days? It would have never even thought to not give echinacea-- even I took some as a preventative when he got sick.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

*Master Tonic* !!!

Strengthen your immune system: *Where to start? Help 101*

This is my *"Cliffs Notes"* version for healthy guts:

Lemon in water. Bone broth. *Epsom salt baths*. Then Green juices or broccoli or liver. Then..

Most cost effective alternatives are whole food nutrients.

*homemade bone broth* every. single. day. 1 cup (MANY nutrients needed for detox, plus minerals)
*homemade kefir* every. single. day. 1 cup (gradually work up, start with an ounce, increase by 1 ounce a week.) (B vits, enzymes, most probiotics in proper ph)
homemade *kombucha* every. single. day. (start with an ounce, increase by 1 ounce a month, if no mercury fillings.) (displaces and replaces candida albicans in the gut)
*green smoothie* every. single. day. day 2 cups (any juice plus any dark leafy greens, rotate produce)
*liver* one ounce, only three times a week. (B-vits essential for detox)

*coconut oil* 1 Tbls every. single. day. (medium chain fatty acids, kills candida in the large intestine)
*fermented CLO*, every. single day. (most expensive item) (vit A, D, K, EFAs)
*Bubbies sauerkraut* 1 Tbls. every. single. day. (or other raw, fermented food) (probiotics)
*Brazil nuts* 2 ONLY, every. single. day. (selenium)

*Epsom salts* a pinch in water, all day long. (magnesium sulfate)
*Celtic Sea Salt* a pinch in every glass of water, broth. (microminerals)
*Lemon juice*, fresh squeezed, 1 tsp. in every glass of water or smoothie. (alkalizing to body ph, paradoxically)
*Raw local honey*, 1 Tbls at bedtime. (helps bifidum bacteria to grow in the gut)
*Egg yolk*, 1 per day. (if not IgE) (nutrients help to detox)
*Vit C*, 1000mg, two times a day. (helps to detox)

Total cost about $4 per day.

Pat


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## Peacemamalove (Jun 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dessismama* 
I think elderberry is OK to use together with vitamin D, curcumin, and resveratrol. Most experts believe these four compounds together should do the trick. Elderberry in addition to raising cytokines prevents the flu virus from propagating by apparently doing something to its spikes. I have had great luck with elderberry from the real flu to stomach viruses. I swear by it, and I am taking it as we speak for some upper respiratory virus (no fever but feeling like I have the flu), so I guess it could be the swine flu but I doubt it. Real flu is a nightmare for me and it is never "mild" but with elderberries I am usually better in 3 days.

WE take it. My sister has the flu right now and has been taking elderberry since yesterday and is feeling much better today. I think it is different for everyone.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1* 
Care to share your recipe?

*Elderberry Syrup

*1 pound dried elderberries (about 5.5 cups, I got mine from Frontier)
water (about 11 cups for 1 pound berries) (2:1 ratio water to berries)
sugar or honey (about 9.5 cups sugar)
vodka or other alcohol- 100 proof (about 21 ounces) (see note below)

Put the elderberries in a large, non-reactive stock-pot. Bring the water to a boil and pour over the dry elderberries. Allow to sit for 48 hours in the fridge or a cool place to rehydrate. Place the berries over low heat on the stove and warm until just slightly warm to touch. Place in a blender or Vitamix and pulverize. Place in a jelly bag or a tea-towel lined colander and allow to drain, then press the bag thoroughly to extract all of the moisture you can from the pulp. Squeeze the pulp as dry as you can get it.

Measure out the juice and combine an equal amount of sugar (I used rapadura) with the juice. Or you can combine with honey at a ratio of 1 part juice to 1.25 parts honey (that would be 7 cups juice to 8.75 cups honey). Heat on low until dissolved and completely blended. Take off the heat and stir in 3 ounces of 100 proof alcohol* (I used vodka) per pint (16 ounces) of syrup. Ladle into sterilized pint jars and seal with sterilized lids. Label and date.

This recipe made 9.5 cups of juice for me and my weak arms and I used rapadura and 100 proof alcohol. It resulted in a little over 8 pints of syrup. If you have a vitamix or strong arms, you could likely get more. Store in a cool, dark place.

The woman this recipe came from says if you use the alcohol to preserve it, it should last several years if you use sterilized jars and store in a cool, dark place.

Dosage: Adults- 1 Tbs 2/day preventative. For active flu, take 4-6 Tbs/day.

This is a sweet syrup, you should be able to give it off of a spoon, take it on some pancakes, etc...

*If you wish to avoid alcohol, use 5 parts sugar to 3 parts juice (7 cups juice to 11.5 cups sugar) or 2 parts honey to 1 part juice (7 cups juice to 14 cups honey). This increase is necessary to preserve the mix. If you use 160 proof alcohol, you can cut down to using 3 Tbs + 1 tsp of alcohol to 1 pint (16 ounces) of syrup.

The full information and discussion about swine flu/elderberry/echinechea is on my forum in the Emergency Preparedness section.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Do you have any links about starting after you become ill causing a problem? I'm reading and hearing from my naturopath not to use it preventatively and only to use it at the onset of symptoms. I wish all of this was more clear cut.

I'm sorry, the links I do have about it all go to a subscription-only forum and I don't have the time right now to pull out the pertinent info and cite their sources. I'll try to get to that this weekend if I can.

If you think about it, though, it makes no sense to wait to start something meant to suppress viral replication once you're already loaded with the virus and are showing symptoms. Wouldn't in make much more sense to take something that suppresses viral replication when you've been exposed or potentially exposed so you don't get sick (or as sick) to start with? The Naturopath's advice seems counter-intuitive.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Quote:
1: Phytochemistry. 2009 Jul;70(10):1255-61. Epub 2009 Aug 12. Links
*Elderberry flavonoids bind to and prevent H1N1 infection in vitro.*

Roschek B Jr, Fink RC, McMichael MD, Li D, Alberte RS.
HerbalScience Group LLC, 1004 Collier Center Way, Suite 200, Naples, FL 34110, USA.

A ionization technique in mass spectrometry called Direct Analysis in Real Time Mass Spectrometry (DART TOF-MS) coupled with a Direct Binding Assay was used to identify and characterize anti-viral components of an elderberry fruit (Sambucus ***** L.) extract without either derivatization or separation by standard chromatographic techniques.

The elderberry extract inhibited Human Influenza A (H1N1) infection in vitro with an IC(50) value of 252+/-34 microg/mL.

*The Direct Binding Assay established that flavonoids from the elderberry extract bind to H1N1 virions and, when bound, block the ability of the viruses to infect host cells.*

Two compounds were identified, 5,7,3',4'-tetra-O-methylquercetin (1) and 5,7-dihydroxy-4-oxo-2-(3,4,5-trihydroxyphenyl)chroman-3-yl-3,4,5-trihydroxycyclohexanecarboxylate (2), as H1N1-bound chemical species. Compound 1 and dihydromyricetin (3), the corresponding 3-hydroxyflavonone of 2, were synthesized and shown to inhibit H1N1 infection in vitro by binding to H1N1 virions, blocking host cell entry and/or recognition. Compound 1 gave an IC(50) of 0.13 microg/mL (0.36 microM) for H1N1 infection inhibition, while dihydromyricetin (3) achieved an IC(50) of 2.8 microg/mL (8.7 microM).

*The H1N1 inhibition activities of the elderberry flavonoids compare favorably to the known anti-influenza activities of Oseltamivir (Tamiflu; 0.32 microM)* and Amantadine (27 microM).


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## sunnysandiegan (Mar 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
*Master Tonic* !!!

Strengthen your immune system: *Where to start? Help 101*

This is my *"Cliffs Notes"* version for healthy guts:

Lemon in water. Bone broth. *Epsom salt baths*. Then Green juices or broccoli or liver. Then..

Most cost effective alternatives are whole food nutrients.

*homemade bone broth* every. single. day. 1 cup (MANY nutrients needed for detox, plus minerals)
*homemade kefir* every. single. day. 1 cup (gradually work up, start with an ounce, increase by 1 ounce a week.) (B vits, enzymes, most probiotics in proper ph)
homemade *kombucha* every. single. day. (start with an ounce, increase by 1 ounce a month, if no mercury fillings.) (displaces and replaces candida albicans in the gut)
*green smoothie* every. single. day. day 2 cups (any juice plus any dark leafy greens, rotate produce)
*liver* one ounce, only three times a week. (B-vits essential for detox)

*coconut oil* 1 Tbls every. single. day. (medium chain fatty acids, kills candida in the large intestine)
*fermented CLO*, every. single day. (most expensive item) (vit A, D, K, EFAs)
*Bubbies sauerkraut* 1 Tbls. every. single. day. (or other raw, fermented food) (probiotics)
*Brazil nuts* 2 ONLY, every. single. day. (selenium)

*Epsom salts* a pinch in water, all day long. (magnesium sulfate)
*Celtic Sea Salt* a pinch in every glass of water, broth. (microminerals)
*Lemon juice*, fresh squeezed, 1 tsp. in every glass of water or smoothie. (alkalizing to body ph, paradoxically)
*Raw local honey*, 1 Tbls at bedtime. (helps bifidum bacteria to grow in the gut)
*Egg yolk*, 1 per day. (if not IgE) (nutrients help to detox)
*Vit C*, 1000mg, two times a day. (helps to detox)

Total cost about $4 per day.

Pat

I don't know how I got to this thread from where I was







, but serendipity must have played a part.... I have been looking for a list along these lines, Pat, and here it is. THANK YOU!


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## Chakra (Sep 7, 2006)

My NMD said not to take echinacea. I never asked about elderberry but I assume she would not like it because the syrup has sugar and she's very anti-sugar.

We have two homeopathic meds that have worked wonder on my entire family. It literally kicked the virus right out of us. We were all getting sick and I knew it was the flu because of the symptoms and because of the homeo meds. we got better right away. My husband came home from work last week with a 103 fever, sore throat, extreme body aches and chills. I started the homeo meds on him and the next morning he was fine. We have engystol and gripp for swine flu. You can buy them on amazon.

We also take silver in the nose, ears and orally. nd a lot of cats claw tea.

Thats a good list wuwei but I would not take honey (bcus of the sugar) or any dairy.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Nice list, wuwei! I find a lot of those things on the list to be helpful. And I like that you put the low cost at the bottom!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Acerola extract
Oregano oil
Propolis gum
Yarrow
Peppermint powder
Boneset powder
DMG (B16)
Elder flower extract
D3
Olive leaf extract

http://products.mercola.com/immune-support/

Pat


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## judderwocky (Nov 16, 2009)

Everybody keeps jumping on echinacea an elderberries with this stuff about the cytokine storm. I have researched the topic at length and thought I would share a few things I have learned about this. The cytokine storm is really only a theory about how certain young animals innoculated with certain deadly strains of H5N1 and the 1918 H1N1 died. They found, among other things elevated levels of cytokines. Cytokines are signaling chemicals that activate different immune cells and many produce inflamation. They also increase the production of reactive oxygen species ("free radicals") in an attempt to mop up the excess viral proteins and dna. This damages the cell, and cells also produce antioxidants during this process such as glutathione. Since macrophages use a lot of these free radical species they tend to oxidize themselves to death. One thing has been found in HIV patients... the glutathione levels in their T cells is actually a slightly better indicator of how long they will survive. Since free radicals are bad scientists simply assumed that there was a sort of malfunctioning occuring... that the cells were becoming 'freaked out' by higher viral levels and were attempting to basically incinerate the virus at a rate higher than the cells could tolerate... leading ARDS.

Unfortunately ... this theory has some problems that have only really recently come to light. First of all, they have bread transgenic mice that lack certain cytokines alltogether and these appear to die at about the same rate as the regular mice... no benefit. Also mice given corticosteroids to reduce these cytokine levels, also showed no reduction in death rate. Also there have been some autopsy reports on humans that have recently died of H5N1 and these have found conflicting results. They all died of ARDS... however a mother and a baby that were disected both had low levels of cytokines and still had the ARDS. The one constant factor among all people coming down with ARDS is a rediculously high viral load. Its possible that the cytokine storm is actually just a side effect and is not entirely lethal by itself.

Also, 'swine flu' or 'novel h1n1' do not contain these dangerous segments of dna that allowed these previous cases of ARDS to go out of control. Several of the components are relatively new to a large portion of the population and thus the cases are slightly more severe. Each exposure to a strain of influenza actually imparts some "cross reactive antibodies" to similar strains. Only some people from the seventies epidemic seem to have any cross reactive antibodies to novel h1n1. The progression however is not as severe as 1918 or h5n1 due to the fact that it doesn't replicate at nearly the same rate...

so just thought i would pass all that on


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## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

The previous post is very inclusive. I had to actually draw myself a flow chart to grasp the concepts.
The bottom line idea I grasped is: "Its possible that the cytokine storm is actually just a side effect and is not entirely lethal by itself."

I read a study while researching febrile seizures that also correlated the incidence of these seizures with a sudden cytokine rush/storm.
Of course, these seizures are generally harmless, not lethal.

I think what I'm hearing inferred is that there isn't enough evidence to confirm that (the fear of) cytokine storm warrants the avoidance of herbs such as echinacea/elderberry. But a lot of people are scared enough of the correlation to do so.
Is this what everyone else gathered?


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## Mommyintraining2 (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank you for summarizing all this for me. I can't seem to do it all myself with pre-school, toddler, baby brain! You make sense


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## katiegrace (Sep 5, 2008)

So glad I read this...I had gotten some of the sambucus elderberry syrup for dd which I don't think I will be giving now. I do have her on a probiotic, Shaklee infant multi-vitamin (powder form) and fish oils...Should I not give her any of those things? I"m so confused now~


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## herbalist (Aug 17, 2011)

My understanding about the echinacea and elderberry is that you want to use them to prevent the cold and flu. Should you have the cold and flu, if it were the Swine or bird flu the danger is up regulating your immune system. this can cause your body to create mucus to protect the mucus membranes. With the swine and Bird flu this may cause one to down in their own mucus. Colloidal silver or Argentyn 23 which is colloidal silver in nannometer size( small enough for your body to really utilize it is recommended). Sovereign Silver soldt by allhealth trends is a good source. It is Bio-Active Silver Hydrosol. I hope this helps. herbalist


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