# Paddling at school.



## Trishy (Oct 15, 2002)

I thought that this was the best place for this but feel free to move it Amy or Pam if you think it belongs somewhere else.

I thought schools didn't paddle anymore until I saw this story on the news last night. It was just awful, the county with the most paddlings from last year, over 600!, is just 2 counties over from me. It looks like th county that I live in does not paddle but chances are good that we will not stay in this county. They had lots of people talking about how paddling was good and none telling about the damage that is done by spanking. Here is the story:

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp...9&nav=4CALKXzQ

I found it pretty interesting that I found this story whil looking for the paddling story:

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=4CAKKXtN

I feel so sad for these kids.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Executive director Jon Akers says he has never had one report of a spanking that crossed the line.
WTF is this supposed to mean?? What line? Who's line? The line into what, exactly?

Maybe the mean the line between hitting and assault. Which doesn't exist unless you are a child and a victim.

Morons.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

even sadder is the parents have to sign a permission slip, so all these kids are probably getting paddled at home also.

even pro-spanking physicians agree that using an object is abuse.

sad


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

even sadder is the parents have to sign a permission slip, so all these kids are probably getting paddled at home also.
Even If I did spank I can't imagine signing over that "right" uke There would certainly be NO signing of that permission slip in our home!!!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

You know... my mother (god keep her away from me!) used to tell me all these _wonderful_ stories of how she grew up in a place that used to use the paddle or the strap or the ruler in school...

The kids didn't talk back... everyone sat and learned. Everyone was quiet... homework was done... there were no jokers... no druggies..

All because of the threat of being paddled...

Honestly..... I think she was having a drugged up hippy flashed back psychotic dream about what her school life was like. Then again, her grandmother was one of her teachers at one point.
















But she wasn't the only one that would tell me those stories. Grandma would tell me ones of the one room schoolhouse she was taught in - grades 1-10 or so in it - and they had the strap. I don't remember my grandpa telling me any of those stories and he grew up in the same town my mother did. Then again, his mother was _the teacher_ so they might have had it.

I really don't know if I would or wouldn't sign the permission slip. If my son was "unruly" or a "discipline problem" I might depending on the severity of the problem. If it was a choice between Ritalin(or some other state approved behavior modifying drug) or the strap, I would. I don't want my child drugged up. I would rather have him make the choice of acting out in class and getting punished or not acting out than drugging him senseless so he'll "behave."

It would have to be a mutual decision between both myself and his father(my dp) before I'd sign that form. When you live in a small town with few schools, choices are limited. We'd both rather deal with the corporal punishment ourselves than have some stranger to us touch our child, but as I said, if it came down between drugging my child into submission or the paddle, we'd probably take the paddle.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

While I respect your decisions regarding meds like Ritalin, you are misunderstanding what they do. Ritalin is not a "sedative" medication. In fact, it is a stimulant which corrects a chemical imbalance in the brain.

I fully agree that it should be a last resort and other treatments should be explored first, but I disagree that violence should be one of them and I also think we do a diservice to kids with mental disease by stigmatizing the use of medications.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I have to agree. Ritalin is a great medicine for those who truly need it.
My nephew is on it. Why? He can't focus on anything. You can see early in the morning that he struggles to put words to his thoughts. He gets frustrated by this and will act on his anger. On the medication, he can clearly explain how he is feeling. In cases where he really needs it, he drinks coffee because the stimulants in coffee help him think.

Ritalin doesn't force kids into submission. It helps those who really need it make the proper chemical connections in their brains.

I agree it is over prescribed, but many kids really could use it.
------
I would never allow another person to hit my child. I don't want to ever hit her. I also don't think a school can force you to medicate your child or force you to allow them to hit him.

Just my 2 cents


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I didn't realize that a school could force you to medicate your children. I know they can't around here.

From what I can tell, most people who spank would NEVER allow someone else to do so.

Kinda like I can call my mother a moron but noone else better...


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I went to schools where the paddle was used. Our principal was a huge man, 6 foot 7 and probably 270 pounds. When he hit kids they would actually be airborne for a while.

I asked to be paddled once, because I did not want the 5 days of detention that my "crime" was going to get. I was told girls could not be paddled, we had to take detention.

I would not enroll my child in a school that used corporal punishment, permission slips or not.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Ugh. My dad told stories of the nuns and their rulers and other forms of corporal punishment in school when he was growing up. He talked down about it, but proceeded to use corporal punishment on us. I guess it's a cycle that needs to be broken or it goes on and on.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

Like the OP, I found those two articles very interesting. One describes the use of paddling / spanking in public schools in Kentucky, and the other describes the rising rates of violence in the public schools in Kentucky!!!

I wonder if anyone is doing any studies of these two behaviors... seems like there might be a link between the violence that is perpetrated on the children in school and their violent behavior in school!

Pretty sad if you ask me.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I've seen the effects of over prescribing Ritalin on adults when they were children.

Like I said, I'd rather give my son the choice to behave and be left alone or misbehaved and be strapped than drugged up.

Yes, there are places where children can be forcibly treated by drugs. A lot of times the ADHD diagnosis is made by overstressed and overworked teacher who passes the information on to the principal and when the parent goes to the doctor to dispute it, the doc just rubber stamps the diagnosis without a proper investigation. A lay person like a teacher should not be making psychiatric diagnosises(why can't I spell the plural form right?) because if the parent disputes it then they call in the local CPS/DFC/MCF and at that point the parent must medicate their child or loose them to the system.

By giving me the option of medicate or strap, I'll choose the strap. That way my son has the option of behaving or not without having to take drugs.

This society is so into "this drug will cure what ails you" drugs that I don't even think they are looking into what those drugs are doing to the children in the long run. Society is looking for a quick fix and those happy little white (or blue or yellow) pills are just a bandaid for whatever is really wrong.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Is there some answer that isn't strapping or ritalin? Strapping can create violent people, or else withdrawn people depending on how you handle it. I can say that being whipped never made me learn anything except how to run faster when I saw the belt come out.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

LOL. Was going to say -- it really oversimplifies the situation to suggest that there are only 2 options here. We aren't choosing between "little blue pills" and "strappings." There is a whole range of possibilities, including the option of addressing the problems in the environment rather than blaming the child.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

In order to address the environment we'd have to do several things and the list below is by now ways complete or exact.

Smaller class sizes for all grades
No "special needs" of any sort in standard classes
Segregate the sexes
Many more teachers
More support staff for the teachers
Uniforms would be good

I could go on.

Instead, teachers are overworked, underpaid, and have to try to keep control of far too many kids in a far too stressfull of a situation. Any more than 20 kids even at the highschool level and the teacher is overburdened. Instead of being able to deal with disruptive kids easily, they have to resort to drugging them with Ritalin (or other kiddie mood altering drugs) and labelling them with ADD, ADHD and other disorders which may or may not be valid.

Detentions and suspensions and all the lines in the world won't change behaviour, not while classrooms are overcrowded. Some kids even "wear suspensions with pride."

So, as I said before, if it was a choice between drugging or the strap, I'd choose the strap for my son. That way _he_ gets to choose how he behaves in class. If he's good, he won't get it. If he's bad, he will.

There were more than a few kids growing up in my class that could have and even should have gotten it. Including the one that called in a bomb threat!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'll kindly ask you to please STOP advocating the "strapping" of children. Period.
This is not the place for it!


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*In order to address the environment we'd have to do several things and the list below is by now ways complete or exact.

Smaller class sizes for all grades
No "special needs" of any sort in standard classes
Segregate the sexes
Many more teachers
More support staff for the teachers
Uniforms would be good

I could go on.*
are you saying that you think all special needs children should be kept in a seperate classroom? I find that so offensive it almost makes me sick. i am very close to a little girl with SEVERE autism, she is like my niece. she is homeschooled thankfully but if she went to school she would have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT as your kids to be in a regular classroom.

& i will admit that i struggle with spanking, it is a battle for me each day, BUT there is NO WAY that i would EVER sign anything giving someone else permission to strike my son. he would not sign a form saying a stranger could hit me, yk?

it is appalling.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

No, I am saying that special needs students need 1 teacher/aide for 3 students at the most and therefore should be taught seperately and at their own speed. Teachers can't deal well with a classroom of 30 or more kids and any special needs ones that distract the others. This also include ESL kids that really should become fluent in english first before going to mainstream.

Some will become fully contributing members of society, others may not, but to force "special needs" to have to try to keep up with what "normal" students are doing is punitive to them. I grew up in a school system that was intergrating the special needs with the regular kids. All but one were disruptive influences and trying to do classwork was hard, and the one that wasn't was only "special needs" because she was in a wheel chair.

And I'm including those children that are "advance" as well. The ones that learn too fast and get bored in school because they are months if not years ahead of their classmates. Those ones shouldn't be punished and forced to stay at the same level their agemates are at. They should be allowed to advance at their own speed.

Quote:

I'll kindly ask you to please STOP advocating the "strapping" of children. Period.
I am Not advocating the strapping of children. I am telling you what MY choice would be. Not what your choice should be. You are a reasonable adult and see things differently that I do. That doesn't mean your way is wrong and it sure doesn't mean that mine is wrong. My way is good for My family if that is the decision I would be forced to make.

If you homeschool, go ahead. I won't. I don't have the patience for it. I also won't stand for laymen diagnosing mental disorders on whims simply to get "problem children" out of their hair.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*I am Not advocating the strapping of children. I am telling you what MY choice would be. Not what your choice should be. You are a reasonable adult and see things differently that I do. That doesn't mean your way is wrong and it sure doesn't mean that mine is wrong. My way is good for My family if that is the decision I would be forced to make.*
respectfully, this is a GENTLE discipline board; since the mothers here do not feel it is OUR right to strike our own children, it is understandable that you have been politely asked to stop advocating (or whatever you want to call it) it as well.

& i agree that kids with special needs should be entitled to an aide, & put in a smaller classroom if that makes *them* more comfortable. if it is done for the convenience of the "normal" kids & the teacher, then it is segregation, & it is WRONG.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*Some will become fully contributing members of society, others may not, but to force "special needs" to have to try to keep up with what "normal" students are doing is punitive to them. I grew up in a school system that was intergrating the special needs with the regular kids. All but one were disruptive influences and trying to do classwork was hard, and the one that wasn't was only "special needs" because she was in a wheel chair.
*
who are you to say who is or is not a "contributing" member of society? My friend's daughter cannot tie her shoes or feed herself, but she is CERTAINLY a contributing member of society. are you saying that only kids who will "amount to something" deserve a mainstream education??


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Some will become fully contributing members of society, others may not...
Do you have any concept of how insulting this statement is? I have never in my life met a single person who didn't "contribute" to society by virtue of his/her very existance, and I have spent years working with "special needs" persons. My suspician is that you and I have very different concepts of what it means to 'contribute.' As far as I'm concerned, any human being capable of love, or of being loved -- has contributed and is contributing to society.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

If I was put in a situation where someone said "Choose Ritalin or I will hit your child." we would brainstorm other choices until we came up with something mutually acceptable. If we could not do that by ourselves we would invite others (mediator, others in the community) to come together to brainstorm ideas until we found an answer that we all felt good about. We would continue this process until an answer had been found.

I would not engage a false choice like that.

That said, if someone, especially someone in authority, hit my child, I would sue them until they cried.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

whatever. I'm being blasted because I dared to voice the opinion that the strap might just be something that could be used as a tool to keep a classroom functioning as a classroom and not as a circus.

There is a time and place for every sort of discipline we can impose on children. I just wish you could see that.

I hope your children are never like those seen on Maury. You know the ones. "My 12/10/8 year old is out of control!"


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

"If he's good, he won't get it. If he's bad, he will."

This is awfully naive.

And no, there is never a time or place for causing another person physical pain without their consent. I wish _you_ could see that.

And I bet you anything the "out-of-control" kids on Maury were spanked or otherwise abused.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamaduck_
*I have never in my life met a single person who didn't "contribute" to society by virtue of his/her very existance, and I have spent years working with "special needs" persons.

As far as I'm concerned, any human being capable of love, or of being loved -- has contributed and is contributing to society.*








Wonderfully put, Mamaduck. .


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Some will become fully contributing members of society, others may not...

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamaduck_
*Do you have any concept of how insulting this statement is? I have never in my life met a single person who didn't "contribute" to society by virtue of his/her very existance, and I have spent years working with "special needs" persons. My suspician is that you and I have very different concepts of what it means to 'contribute.' As far as I'm concerned, any human being capable of love, or of being loved -- has contributed and is contributing to society.*






































Quote:

_Originally posted by Mamid_
*There is a time and place for every sort of discipline we can impose on children. I just wish you could see that.

I hope your children are never like those seen on Maury. You know the ones. "My 12/10/8 year old is out of control!"*
EVERY sort of discipline?? come on, you can't be serious. And i can almost guarantee the kids on "maury" didn't get there on their own. 75% at least are probably abused & unloved. my son i safe & secure; he knows i will not harm him & he knows i will not sign the right to harm him over to someone else. WE will never be on Maury.

we might go on Ellen, though. i love her new show.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

*MODERATOR NOTE*
_
Just a gentle reminder that this forum is dedicated to the implemenation and advocacy of *gentle discipline*. Debate about the merits of gentle discipline will not be hosted here. Please refrain from advocating punitive methods of discipline in this forum. Thank you._


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

This thread has been temporarily closed due to violations of the user agreement and will be reopened shortly.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Moderator's Note:

This thread has been re-opened.

_Please note: If any further advocacy of hitting a child is posted, the post will be removed and reported to the administration for further action._


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamelamama_
*Moderator's Note:

This thread has been re-opened.

Please note: If any further advocacy of hitting a child is posted, the post will be removed and reported to the administration for further action.*
Ok, I've been reading this thread with great interest especially due to the back and forth that has been going on. So I have to ask, why the above?

Second question: Is this a debate forum/thread or an advocacy thread?

Not gonna post anything else anywhere on this site until I find out for sure.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

This forum is for support for and advocacy of Gentle Discipline. It is not a debate forum in anyway so if your intent is to debate spanking then I suggest you not post here. There are plenty of other communities out there that will allow you to do so and will support your views.

However, if you are interested in Gentle Discipline and are hear to learn more by all means feel free to discuss with the intent to learn about GD, not to debate spanking over not spaning.

If you have any questions about the issue feel free to email me: [email protected]


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

My children have had three special needs children in their classrooms over the years (that I know of there may have been more children) and all three created positive experiences for all the children in the class. One child is Down Syndrom, another has Brittle Bone Disease, the third has Cerebral Palsey. I have nothing but positive things to say about these children. There was, however, a girl in my daughter's grade. She was never in my DD's class. I saw this girl in the hallways and during concerts and other events in which the entire school was in assembly. This girl was a horrible distraction every time. I don't know her special need but she continously outburst and on one occasion vomited on everyone around her. I don't think this girl should have been in the classroom because of the disruption she caused. The other children simply could not receive an appropriate education.

All special needs children have an aide in our SD. I think this is a wonderful thing and I would imagine 99% of the children are a wonderful addition to the classroom. The other 1% belong in a special environment.

I know I'll be ducking flames.

Back in my bad old spanking days when my older children were in elementary school (19 years ago!!!) you had to sign a paper giving permission for the SD to use corporal punishment. Even though I spanked at the time (and have reformed to GD) I wouldn't ever consider giving others permission to strike my child.

Now I wouldn't even allow them to attend a school that practiced cp. The environment would simply be too hostile IMHO.

DB


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