# 88% of teens who promise abstinence actually have sex anyway?



## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Just reading through my TIME mag this morning and that's what the little blurb in there says.

Why does the abstinence movement tell the world that their program is a success if the failure rate is so high?

The other awful part in this magazine write up was how these abstinent (well not but anyway) teens aren't using any kind of protection against STDs.







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but I suppose that makes sense as they planned not to have sex but did it anyway so they didn't have the proper protection. Fail to plan, plan to fail as they say.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

My question is why would anyone want their teen to promise to not have sex anyway? I mean, do parents have a right to extract such a promise? And if your parent is expecting you to promise how many are going to tell thier parents that they won't promise to not have sex?

Just seems like a total waste of time. Don't know many if any teens that would tell their parents (that are expecting them to be abstinant) that no, they won't be.








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## fluffernutter (Dec 8, 2002)

I remember when I used to go to church. Back when I was in Jr. High there was a huge thing about abstaining until marriage. It was like an organization. There were rings and everything. There was a whole ceremony at church and all. Looking back, I can't imagine what teen would have said "No, I don't want to wait". So, I think that the some of those teens who said they would wait, really had no plans to. They just didn't want to announce that to everyone, kwim?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ReesesMomma_
*I remember when I used to go to church. Back when I was in Jr. High there was a huge thing about abstaining until marriage. It was like an organization. There were rings and everything. There was a whole ceremony at church and all. Looking back, I can't imagine what teen would have said "No, I don't want to wait". So, I think that the some of those teens who said they would wait, really had no plans to. They just didn't want to announce that to everyone, kwim?*
Have any of you heard of the book "Why Wait" by Josh Mcdowell (sp)

I used to speak as a teen about this book my mom gave me when I was 12. I read it cover to cover and it was dog eared. I was completely fascinated by it and convinced I would never sin and have sex outside of marriage. I spoke in chapels and at youth groups.

Then I met dream boy.

And I became one horny 16 year old girl. Let's just say I didn't speak about "why wait" ever again.

My best friends church did the ring thing. Her parents asked her why she didnt take the vow and wear the ring. And she told them flat out she was having sex with her boyfriend. Her parents never asked her anything about sex again!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

In addition, it has been shown that teens who take the "chastity" pledge, while they do postpone sex end up having higher rates of UNPROTECTED sex. Since they have vowed not to have sex, they feel unable to prepare for it, I guess?


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Just because the Christian Taliban are miserable, they feel obligated to make sure that no one else has any fun either. It sort of reminds me of the religious police in Saudi Arabia.


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## calgal007 (Nov 20, 2001)

I was in a Christian youth group in high school. Both my boyfriend and I participated. Then we screwed each other's brains out in the parking lot.

(Not kidding.)


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## mamangazelle (Apr 25, 2003)

My mom wanted me to wait. I said I would. Then she found condoms (used







) in the trash... At least I used protection








I would have never, ever told my parents about sex if they had not found out. I knew what they wanted to hear, so I told them







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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

I worked (in my pre-mama life) for many years with pregnant and parenting teens, both in home based care and in group homes. I have a "Teenagers and Sex Education" soapbox that is ten miles high, and I'm trying really hard to only give the first two or three inches of it here....
One of the biggest problems with abstinence only education is that it starts too late. The average age of onset of menses has dropped drastically over the past decade (there have been surveys that even say the new average age is 7.75!!) and the average age of first sexual experience has dropped to an all time low....a frightening low.
However, most abstinence based sex education begins in high school. For example, I remember sitting in health class in my high school (a required class for sophmores), hearing that "Soon, your bodies will start to change. Young women may even start to menstruate..." Hello! Your average sophmore is 15-16 years old...if they haven't started by then, there's a problem!
That was also the first year in that particular school system that sex education (abstinence only) was taught. I remember looking around at the snickering...probably half the kids in that class had already had sex.
So, IMO/E, that is the problem. It is very difficult to "pledge" to be abstinent when you've already started having sex. And unfortunately, while we are teaching them to say no, we don't teach them HOW to say no. And worse, we don't teach them what they can do instead. No teenage kid thinks a board game is nearly as much fun as getting felt up. Board games never attacked their hormones as much as that cute boy in 4th period FINALLY kissing you...so what do you think wins out in the end?
What really ticks me off is that we don't offer our children any "weapons" in the "battle" against having sex (bad words, I know....preggo brain creeping in), we don't offer them any protection "just in case" they DO go into battle, and then we complain and whine and bitch because we have so many teenaged, unwed mothers. Go figure.

Sorry...that turned into about a foot of soapbox. I could go on for days....


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

Just because the Christian Taliban are miserable, they feel obligated to make sure that no one else has any fun either.
maybe this is OT, but HB, your sense of humour lately.............








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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)




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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by calgal007_
*I was in a Christian youth group in high school. Both my boyfriend and I participated. Then we screwed each other's brains out in the parking lot.

(Not kidding.)*
I believe you!

( I did the same thing)


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## MrsBone (Apr 20, 2004)

im still a virgin, and i have a ring too.....yes, your probably asking..why is she on a mothering site???? Im getting married in september, and I have a strange feeling, it wont be long after that we get pregnant. BTW, im 21, and i've waited this long.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

MrsBone, how lovely for you to be getting married in Sept! Congratulations! And I don't think it odd at all that you would visit a parenting site- it is nice to think of the future.

However, I do feel the need to point out that whilst abstinence works for you & your future hubby, that doesn't mean that it will work for others. It is possible to be strong in your convictions without pushing your point of view on others.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

"It's natural
It's chemical (let's do it)
It's logical
Habitual (can we do it?)
It's sensual
But most of all.....
Sex is something that we should do
Sex is something for me and you

Sex is natural - sex is good
Not everybody does it
But everybody should"

This goes out to all you fornicating 80's teenagers who were doing it in the back seat after youth group!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

IslandMamma, you make this 80s teenager smile.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

How about:

Ain't no doubt about it
Baby got to go out and shout it
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
'Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed

For the record, DH *was* almost 18, lol (not just barely 17)!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Abstinence-only is a joke.

That's like putting a bunch of cats in a pen with mice and telling them not to catch any.







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The sooner we accept human nature for what it is - animal drive and instinct with a dash of self-awareness to make things interesting - the sooner we can get a handle on things.

Denying our true Nature gets us nowhere.

calgal - I so know what you mean. I had the biggest makeout session of my life at a youth group retreat. then there were our group leaders - they were "engaged" so they figured it was okay for them to be having sex....funny how so many young christian couples got "engaged" right away...LOL.

I have to agree with Arduinna 100% anyways. What the heck is wrong with sex? Why would I tell my kids not to have sex? Like everything else in life, you do it responsibly and with full awareness of what you are getting into. But why should the joy of sex be reserved for those over 21?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

This isn't said from a religious perspective, but I think it's sad that so many young girls are so quick to give themselves away to the first dude to put the moves on them. In retrospect I'm really glad that I had the good judgement to fend off the gropers that were my first boyfriends. This, however, doesn't have much to do with waiting 'til marriage, just valuing the 'specialness' of one's virginity and sexuality in general. It's about self-esteem and empowerment, not preaching and dogma. For heaven's sake, not long ago it was Britney spears who was all vocal about abstinence til marriage. Yeah, right. Goes to show....


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

Read Promiscuity by Naomi Wolf.

This issue will not be solved. Some of us believe God told us to abstain, some of us believe biology tells us not to.

I for one HOPE my son abstains, but because I believe that our society has evolved faster than our minds and our bodies could ever do, I don't expect him to. It's mind over matter and mind doesn't always win out.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, I guess I must be the radical minority here..
but I just don't get what's so "special" about one's virginity?

Seems like the emphasis on that implies a woman is somehow "less" because she's had sex.

I plan to emphasize responsible sex and sexuality. I plan to emphasize respect for self, for one's own body and mind.. and respect for others and their bodies and minds.

It is up to DS to decide what sex and sexuality mean to him.. what time is right.. and which partner is right.

It is MY job to help him make those decisions and explore those issues in a safe environment where HE is respected.

Abstinance pledges do not seem to me to be a useful tool in achieving any of those things.

But, Pie is right.. the issue will not be solved.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Just for reference:

Promiscuities: The Secret Struggle for Womanhood
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...475097-2697442

I just put mine on hold at the library


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

I just don't get what's so "special" about one's virginity?
I was going to ask the same thing and then came upon Asherahs post.

What the heck is so "special" about virgininty?

Why is when someone decides to have sex a reflection on their self esteem?? That implies that there is something negative about sex. Because after all if you cared enough about yourself you wouldn't do it?


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## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

For those of us a little older:

I never knew how complete love could be
Till she kissed me and said
Baby, please, go all the way
It feels so right
Being with you here tonight
Please, go all the way
Just hold me close
Don't ever let me go

I couldn't say what I wanted to say
Till she whispered, I love you
So, please, go all the way
It feels so right
Being with you here tonight
Please, go all the way
Just hold me close
Don't ever let me go


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I was going to ask the same thing and then came upon Asherahs post.

What the heck is so "special" about virgininty?

Why is when someone decides to have sex a reflection on their self esteem?? That implies that there is something negative about sex. Because after all if you cared enough about yourself you wouldn't do it?







*
I so very much agree.
And what a completely hypocritical message we send to our children....if you cared enough about yourself you wouldn't do it...unless you are married, in which case you can do it whenever you want to? We tell our children "Don't have sex" and then we go and do it ourselves. I hate telling my kids "Do as I say, not as I do" with anything...much less the very thing that got them here in the first place.
Our children are taught that sex is "bad"...but how many of those sex ed teachers are still virgins? That's like telling our children not to eat ice cream because it's bad for you...while we're eating a hot fudge sundae.
We also teach them that it's a "beautiful" thing...but how many of us can honestly say (even those of us who are married) that every single time we do it, it's "beautiful"?
And, while I'm still on my soapbox...we spend so much time complaining about pregnant teens, when in all reality, that's not the worst that can happen. And I'm sorry, but in a society where there have ALWAYS been pregnant teens (my ggma was 15 when she was pregnant with her first...but she was married, so it's normal?), it is pretty much impossible to tell our children that teenaged parenting is such a horrible fate. Unfortunately, the worst that can happen is that it can KILL you. Why don't we focus on that for a while, instead of placing the focus on virginity until a certain age...especially when the very people sending the message didn't always follow it. I don't think you have a leg to stand on in that case unless you personally did it yourself...if YOU and your partner waited until marriage to have at it, fine...teach your children how wonderful it was for you. If you were going at it 4 times a day, and you let your partner spend the night with you the first night you met...then your "Don't have sex until you're married" doesn't sound so strong.

I also plan to teach my children that sex is a normal function of life. It's a wonderful thing that makes you feel fabulous, and in a loving relationship, it can be a beautiful thing that adds a completely different dimension to your relationship.
I can not tell my children when to have sex, where to have sex, or with whom to have sex. I can only hope that I can teach them to be responsible for themselves and their future partners, both emotionally and physically.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I have a huge issue with the viginity=self-esteem for girls idea. The idea that virginity is somehow tied up in a woman's worth just reinforces the notion that our sexuality is the most important, and worthy, part of who we are.

Sex wasn't that big of a deal for me when I was a teenager. I had sex, it was fun, I wasn't scarred for life. I was smart enough to seek out the information about birth control and safer sex for myself because my parents sure as hell weren't talking. I was a PP veteran by the time I was 17. I thank God that they were there, because I probably would have had sex, anyway.

Why is it that "losing one's virginity", for girls, is about "giving something away"? I didn't give anything away the first time I had sex. I gained something. Sex was always very selfish for me, as I think it should be.

I think this double-talk about virginity being special sends all the wrong messages and probably encourages girls who are vulnerable, those with low self-esteem, to have sex even more.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I have a slightly different take on thsi subject, as I do regret alot of my ealy sexual activity. I started having sex at a fairly young age (15), and I feel it did have a negative effect on my teenage years. I felt I did it because everyone else was, and then later I did it to get or keep a guy. Heck, it wasn't a good first date unless we slept together. I can't even count how many guys I slept with when I was in high school. All of my friends, the honor roll, teacher's pet, president of the student body type of kids, were like this. Incidentally, I did alot of smoking of cigs and other "herbs" and spent a heck of alot of money on alcohol. I was an honor roll student, worked 30+ hours a week, volunteered at church, took care of all my chores; in exchange, I guess, my parents acted like they didn't notice that I came home drunk or smelling like smoke.

I want my kids to learn the responsibility that comes with sex. Responsibility to oneself, to future children, and to a future partner. I feel like I did all my partying and screwing around because of self esteem issues. Sure, it was fun to get drunk and have sex; but I think now more of the fun was that everyone thought I was cool, not that the actual alcohol and sex was all that great (sorry, but high school boys aren't where it's at, as far as the great lovers of the world go).

Sex is a great part of a healthy relationship. Emphasis on the word healthy. While healthy means many different things to many different people, in this house I would like it to mean a relationship built on caring and a long term committment, not on sex and partying and fun. While those can be aspects of a healthy relationship, they ccan't be the basis of a healthy relationship. Also, the carrying out the act of sex means accepting certain responsibilities....possible pregnancy, infections, etc. You are making yourself vulnerable in many aspects; if my child is going to do that, I want it to be with someone she loves and trusts.

I don't care much for the no sex until after marriage thing. Frankly, I don't care much for the marriage thing. If dh and I could do it all over again, we would have simply done the common law thing (still possible in my state). Committment is great, but the act of marriage isn't for me, it seemed so fake.

But I do expect my children to use good sense and not screw the first person who gets them hot. I think in the long run it isn't worth it. I don't expect them to remain virgins for 20 years, or to only have one sex partner their entire lives; but a good relationship isn't built on sex. I want them to have good, healthy solid relationships. If sex is an aspect of that, fine. But please, not a one night stand several times a week!


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*I think it's sad that so many young girls are so quick to give themselves away to the first dude to put the moves on them.*

ha.. 9th grade I dumped my 12th grade hottie BF cause he didnt wanna give it up :LOL


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Nikki Christina_
*ha.. 9th grade I dumped my 12th grade hottie BF cause he didnt wanna give it up :LOL*
Speaking out for teenaged boys...
They get a very bad rap sometimes.
It's not always the boys with the raging hormones. Girls can be just as bad (if not worse at times).

So teenaged girls aren't always the "victim", and teenaged boys aren't always the ones with their brains in their pants.

I've actually heard mothers of daughters say something like "I'm glad I have girls...at least I'll never have to worry about them wanting to have sex!"


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't think that a little tiny piece of me died when I lost my virginity (at age 13, to a 12-year-old boy, BTW)! I don't think I am more likely to get divorced, or that dh secretly wishes he had been my first, or that my kids are doomed to have sex that early as well.

I think, rather than focusing on how to not get my kids to have sex, I would like to focus on how to get them to have a first experience that is meaningful and enjoyable, no matter how old they are. So if 88% of those teens decided abstinence wasn't for them, I say GOOD! (As long as it was consensual.) I think it does a lot more harm to be abstinent if you are not happy about it than to have sex and be happy.

Although, when I hear about kids under age 15 or 16 having sex, I have to wonder if there isn't something wrong. If they have really decided for themselves that is what's right for them, then great, but in my case I barely even knew what sex was. I didn't have any understanding of sex, reproduction and the female body until I was over 16. I don't see the point in having sex until you are really going to enjoy it, and I didn't start to enjoy myself until I was 16.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't regret losing my virginity, but I do regret getting involved with a boy or two along the way to where I am today, which is married. I should have kept it purely sexual and not emotional once or twice, that is for sure.

I agree that girls are not victims. Unless raped they make the choice. I don't see my son as a future perpetrator of sexual aggression, at all. I do hope he'll wait as long as he can stand to and be very careful once he enters the realm of adult relations, and I certainly think I can teach him NEVER to pressure anyone, and adversely, never to be pressured.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

virginity is just another thing to keep womyn down. virgin=clean % pure and sexually experienced =slut=bad. it's totally outmoded and outdated, imo, and abstinence is a useless thing to teach. that said, i plan to give my dd all the facts, tell her of my experiences (which we by and large crappy and not worth it, and i was too young), tell her of my good experiences, and let her decide for herself.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

abstinence is not useless. It absolutely helps kids keep safe, not pregnant, disease free and focused on other things. Teaching it is the key. INSISTING on it is futile.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*
I think, rather than focusing on how to not get my kids to have sex, I would like to focus on how to get them to have a first experience that is meaningful and enjoyable, no matter how old they are. So if 88% of those teens decided abstinence wasn't for them, I say GOOD! (As long as it was consensual.) I think it does a lot more harm to be abstinent if you are not happy about it than to have sex and be happy.

*
ITA!

And in response to some of the things said earlier, it seems like some are under the impression that females and males are in equal territory when it comes to sex. Not for a minute, not in the slightest. It's troubling... I'm not talking about girls who know what they want and go after it. I realize that such behaviour is somewhat taboo, so let's not confuse issues here.
As for virginity, being a virgin isn't inherently special, I suppose, but who can deny that one's first time having intercourse is special? 'Special' doesn't mean you should be married, it means, generally, that you are with someone you care about and who cares about you. Not just getting f*cked by someone who is basically using you. And oh, how many girls seem not to know the difference.
Maybe talking about these things in the context of this thread gives the wrong idea. The vocal religious abstinence-only people of the OP, whose message is endorsed by Bush, are completely off-track and doing no one any good. I think they are downright silly people.
But it is a shame that so many reject the oppressive traditionalists by embracing the cheap promiscuities of our spiritually bereft modern society. In more ways than one.

I have yet to read the book 'Promiscuities', BTW, but it sounds interesting.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

a lot of boys don't know the difference either. All that boys have over girls sexually is physical power. Ultimately boys are every bit as vulnerable as girls are. I realize this is an issue of feminism, but I won't buy for a minute that my son couldn't be hurt by sex as any girl could.


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## mommy2boys (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pie_
*abstinence is not useless. It absolutely helps kids keep safe, not pregnant, disease free and focused on other things. Teaching it is the key. INSISTING on it is futile.*
Very well said.

This is a topic I still struggle with. I grew up in a household that taught only abstinence but I had a mom that was very open about her sexlife with my father. (down to edible underwear ewww). When my mom gave me the sex talk it wasn't to tell me how sex happened or how it worked it was more or less all about all the bad things that happen to girls that have sex. My parents were very strict. When I did lose my virginity at 17 it wasn't because I liked the guy or even really wanted to have sex I did it as stupid as it is to get back at my parents and to hurt them. (and I did). I regret having sex for the reasons I did and I regret the guy I did it with. I still have guilt issues about it growing up in such a religous household.
I will teach my boys that abstinence is ideal but also teach them about condoms and such.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I will go for presenting abstinence as an _option._ Some people don't seem to realize they have that option







so I want to make sure my children know it's always available to them.

But who knows, by the time my kids are teens I will be, ahem, old. By then I might have turned into a puritan republican.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Yes abstinance protects EVERYONE from pregnancy and most STDs. So why is it more important for young people than adults??


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yeah, really. I don't think an unplanned pregnancy is worse at 17 than it is at 20, or that getting a curable STD at age 30 is better than getting one at age 14.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I'm sorry, but the idea that the "first time" is always soooo special makes me want to laugh my fool head off.

We certainly IDEALIZE and romanticize it in this culture.. which puts a lot of pressure on people...

But precisely NONE of the women I know IRL had stars-in-their-eyes, flowers-and-champagne, fireworks-in-the-background first times.

And ya know what?
I think it is a HUGE judgment to say it HAS to be special... or that it HAS to be with some great first love.

It is what it is for the people involved. And that is no one else's freaking business. Who am I to tell my son what his first time "SHOULD" be like?

Maybe having sex just for pleasure is against some people's morals. Fine for you. It is NOT against my morals.. and if I wanted my first time to be a wild ride with some bad boy.. instead of some doe-eyed love-fest, that is MY choice.

I think people's sexuality would be much healthier if others would keep their SHOULDS to themselves, and for themselves, and stop making assumptions and judgments.

Actually, this thread has helped me.

Because I am now making a note to warn my son that other people will think they know what's right about sex and sexuality.. and that they will try to put that on him. But that it will be up to HIM to decide.. and that he should look inward, not outward.. either at the images of sex in our culture or those who would give well-meaning advice.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Wow, Asherah, I got goosebumps reading your post. Thank you for sharing that and I hope it is alright to adopt your post here as my new viewpoint on this issue!









Great post. Amazing.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, thanks Playdoh.
I am just glad to be understood.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

My first sexual experience was my worst, largely because it was supposed to be soooo special and it wasn't. Then, because I'd already done the deed, I convinced myself that I had to be in love with the idiot because if I wasn't, then what did that say about me? The flippin' moron turned out to be even more of a loser than I realized. Without all of that bullcrap about sex being soooo special, I might have been able to cut him loose a lot sooner than I did, which was nine months and a whole lot of drama later.


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## Selissa (Jun 15, 2003)

and if I wanted my first time to be a wild ride with some bad boy..

Ashera I agree w/ your post one hundred percent

and just wanted to add that my first time was definatly a wild ride w/ some bad boy...it didn't mean much of anything atthe time except that my curiosity had overcome my shyness. I was just barely 16 i think and he is still one of my bestfriends


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

see selissa, now that sounds like a healthy and empowered first time. Congratulations.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*'Special' doesn't mean you should be married, it means, generally, that you are with someone you care about and who cares about you. Not just getting f*cked by someone who is basically using you. And oh, how many girls seem not to know the difference.
*
This seemed to need repeating...I never said anything about starry eyed romance.... nor is this about preaching 'shoulds'. People hear what they want to hear, I guess.
What does it mean to 'care' about someone? To respect them and to be concerned with their pleasure /happiness. Not a very picky criteria, I think, yet even still more than what many girls and women seem to get. Not all....many, and yeah, I think that's sad.


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## midnight mom (Feb 4, 2003)

My first sexual experience was at age 14, it wasn't good, but it was mine. I should have waited a while longer. I really didnt' like this guy but I gave in to the pressure...more from my girlfriend than from him.

Back when I was still christian and going to church, they had one of those ring/promise ceremonies for the teens in the church. I simply asked dd if she wanted to participate and she said no. No pressure from me.

I felt like it would have just set her up for breaking a huge promise made to god and herself. Why do that to yourself? And low and behold she is now sexually active at age 15, so I'm glad she didn't do the ceremony.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Um, okay... in those terms, then Snowy Owl.. what makes the FIRST time any more "special" than any other time?

Don't those criteria apply ANY time you have sex?

Recent posters, including myself, are objecting to the emphasis on "the first time.."

I could be wrong, but I do think you are the one who singled that out in terms of its "special"-ness.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Why is when someone decides to have sex a reflection on their self esteem??"

The key word here is 'decides'. Trouble is for many young people it's not a decision so much as a caving in to pressures around them.

The key I believe is to raise children with high self-esteem so that for them it is a 'decision' - a choice - made with facts and confidence at their disposal.

Certainly a common theme in my youth was that the girls (in particular) who 'decided' to have sex very young lacked the self esteem to say no - no to sex, no to cigarretttes, no to alcohol, no to all manner of things.

I'd prefer my dds to abstain because I believe the physical risks are high, and maybe even more importantly, I believe that emotionally most girls in their teens are not ready to take on being sexually active. That's not to say that I wuold 'preach' abstinence, but I'd certainly advocate it, along with advocating that they dont marry until their mid-twenties too. As for abstinence until marriage, that isn't something I'd particularly advocate one way or another, but abstinence until in a meaningful, mature relationship, yes, absolutely.

IMO that frees them to enjoy their youth without all the pressures of trying to be too grown up too fast.

But in order to have the strength to say no to all manner of things, you need to be armed with self confidence and knowledge. Which is why a good sex ed programme is essential, not stressing abstinence as the only way (unrealistic) nor making youths feel that it's totally expected that they have sex young and that if they don't they are somehow uncool.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I guess my experience has been vastly different than others. I never experienced peer pressure. None of my friends had sex because of peer pressure. My first time was when I decided because I wanted to and frankly I think the guy asked me to go steady afterwards because he thought it was expected (not by me). I certainly wasn't in love with him, although I sure liked him. I wasn't deluded into thinking I was gonna marry the guy or anything. And I'm sure I'd qualify for being young enough that most people would think I didn't know what I was doing or that there was something wrong with me for having sex that young. He hadn't even been asking for sex.

I just do not believe that most girls have sex because of peer pressure.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

asherah, it's true that those criteria generally apply to any time one has sex, but don't you think a mature sexually experienced woman is more in a 'position' to decide what she wants out of it, be it a brief fling or something more involved, than a sixteen year old virgin? And if a young girl considers that first time important, then she is more likely to wait for a healthier relationship before beginning what will be a very long life of sexual activity.
I mean, these are all generalizations and I don't think we are coming from vastly different perspectives. I have a daughter. I want her to make good decisions. I trust that she will, and for me, personally, that means that her first sexual experiences take place within healthy relationships where there is mutual respect.
That her first time isn't, say, piss drunk at some party while someone she barely knows humps the lower half of her body. That's tragic anytime, and call me sentimental, especially tragic your first time.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I believe that emotionally most girls in their teens are not ready to take on being sexually active.
What about boys? If teen boys are emotionally ready, are they supposed to have sex with adult women?

The self-esteem argument is used a lot today. I think some people have stopped deciding that sexually active teen girls are bad, and are now saying they are just troubled. But they don't say the same for boys. If a girl is having sex, she was probably sexually abused or is doing poorly in school or doesn't like herself; a sexually active boy is just a normal, healthy young man.

I do believe that the vast majority (but not all) of people who have sex at really young ages, like under 15, may have some kind of trouble going on in their lives. Often, when they look back on the experience, they realize it wasn't even consensual. But then instead of telling them not to have sex, why not look at what's going on in their lives and deal with that?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Arduinna, it sounds like you knew what you wanted and have no regrets. I feel the same way about my first sexual relationship. I knew I didn't want to marry the guy but we had a good relationship for a few months. And I had a few female friends who were the same way. And also some who were not. It is tough to generalize. Still, I am under the impression that many teenage girls start having sex to please others. I don't like the term 'peer pressure' cause it's pretty misleading. The pressure takes a more insidious form, I think, more subtle than overt. And it is not 'peers', it is a cultural message that a woman's worth is in her desirability and how she 'pleases' a man. I see this, I recognize some of the ways I have internalized it, and I don't think it is wise to disregard it's power over women.
Anyway, it's complicated.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Aren't we "pressuring" girls to not have sex? So they should give in to pressure after all, unless it's to do something they actually want to do?

Or they should give in to pressure from people like that guy in the white house who doesn't even know them and what's best for them?


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

What about all of the kids who are doing everything BUT penetration, and considering it okay, because it's "not sex", and they are, therefore, still "holding on to their virginity"?
The kids who go to oral sex orgies, basically, but that's perfectly acceptable, because there isn't any actual penetration occuring?

I think back to working with my girls and hearing about some form of STD that could be transmitted by oral sex...there was a huge breakout of that particular one (can't remember for the life of me which one it was) in our area...in kids ages 12-15. And what really cracked me up about the whole thing is that the same area (a middle class, suburban, white school township) had just finished a huge "Virginity Pledge" at the middle and high school levels. Go figure.

Unfortunately, in trying to keep them from becomming active ('cause you know if you talk to them about sex at all, you're giving them permission to do it...), we hide very valuable information from them. Like BJ's shouldn't necessarily be a recreational activity. And that panties aren't effective protection against pregnancy and STD's. And that you really can get pregnant your very first time. And that douching with coke won't cause a miscarriage.
So, they get their info from friends, and it turns into the Telephone game, and by the time it gets to the last kid, it's all wrong...and we're back decades ago when it was appropriate to hide our unmarried pregnant daughters in Catholic group homes far away from family and friends. Oh wait...was that decades ago? Nope...that's St. E's, where I spent about 5 years working, about 6 years ago.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I don't know, Snowy.
I think lots of older, mature, experienced women make destructive decisions about sex.

And I also don't think youth or inexperience necessarily prevent one from being "emotionally ready" or being able to make good decisions.

I think people make their sexual journeys as individuals, based on their own morals and psyches. I think that's true whether you first have sex at 16 or 26 or 66.

I have met sexually damaged men and sexually healthy women and vice versa.
I have met wise teenagers and I have met adults in denial.

For me.. viewing the issue in terms of gender, or age, or self-esteem or WHATEVER just isn't useful when it comes to dealing with my ds.

For me, it is all about helping him figure out who he is.. while encouraging him to have integrity in ALL his dealings with others.. not just his sexual dealings.
Sexuality flows out of who a person IS.
HE has to decide when he is ready, who his first partner will be... and what sex means to him.

All I can do is help him educate himself.. and encourage him to be authentic and honorable... in sexual situations and any other situations.

I am sure I will worry about him making mistakes, getting hurt, hurting someone else, getting a disease or getting someone pregnant, like any other parent.

But he's gonna have sex someday.. and I doubt it will be on MY timetable. So I just have to do the best I can.


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by asherah_
*
But he's gonna have sex someday.. and I doubt it will be on MY timetable. So I just have to do the best I can.*
I wish it could be on the parent's timetable.
I've already threatened to keep my children locked in their rooms for all eternity.
In fact, if you ask my dd when she's allowed to go on her first date, she says "When I'm 106." Because that's what her Daddy has been telling her since the day she was born. (and JFTR, the rule would apply to the boys, too! 106 I tell ya!)


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

:LOL


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

asherah, wonderful posts.

also, I wanted to touch on what britishmum said. I think ultimately, it all boils down to a child's sense of self-worth and self-esteem.

Thing is, that applies to all their choices. Sex is just one of them. Who they date, who they hang out with, whether they do drugs and/or alcohol in moderation or abusively, whether they eat healthy or have eating disorders, whether they are "real" or one of those sad kids who put a facade of denial around themselves and alienate everyone else as a result...

healthy sex is just one plus of healthy self-esteem. the biggest risks I see to my kids emotionally, are that they get hurt. I know it's easy for girls to confuse "love" and "lust" or confuse "good attention" with "not so good attention" (and yes, this isn't confined to just girls).....and IME all of these things are tied into self-esteem. the girl who feels good about herself tells the loser hitting on her at the school dance to get lost. The girl with low self-esteem considers it a validation of her worth (even if she's the tenth girl he's hit on that night) and goes home with him.

So, I think if your child has a good sense of self and self-esteem, and with a bit of loving advice and guidance from us who have "been there", the whole sex thing becomes a non-issue. Most of the "fears" parents have of kids getting hurt, feeling used, regretting their actions later, not having a "loving relationship" with their first partner, etc....really boil down to self-esteem.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I am speaking in terms of girls, because that's what I am, and I have daughters. Of course boys need to have high self esteem, as well, but I'm not thinking about them so much; I'm thinking about my past and my daughters' future.

Arduinna, that's great that you feel so positive about it all. BUT, where I lived, there VERY much was HUGE peer pressure to have sex. Enormous. I would guess that 75% of kids were sexually active by the time they were 16. You were a complete prude/nerd if you didn't. 100% of my friends were sexually active by the time they turned 16 (some as young as 13). And most of them weren't having sex because it was empowering; it was to be cool, to not be the only one who wasn't.

More later, but the bean has to get to school!








Lori


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

In my school, there was not much pressure to have sex. I had this idea that everyone else had sex when they were 11 and I was some freak for waiting until 13, but I have no idea where it came from. Not my friends - they were all virgins. Not TV - we didn't have one. Not the teen magazines I read - they were full of stuff about how sex leads to pregnancy and bad reputations and how you should wait until college, if not later. I even lied about not being a virgin because I thought no one would want to have sex with a virgin.

Sex education in junior high consisted of the teacher telling the students that most people have sex "too young" ("young" was determined by the teacher and not by those who actually had sex) and she also felt the need to point out that black girls' sexual behavior was "even worse" than that of white girls.







:

In a recent class I was told the age group most likely to get an STD is 15-30. So why isn't there more of a focus on getting people ages 20-30 to abstain?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

I've already threatened to keep my children locked in their rooms for all eternity.
:LOL

You make me feel sooo liberal. My dh thinks that 35 is a good age for first dates.

I think the abstinence only approach is a recipe for disaster. Yes, teach kids about abstinence, but for goodness sake pull your head out of the sand and teach them what they need to keep safe. Their lives and wellbeing are at stake. I find those promise ceremonies and rings absolutely









I hope my dds will wait until they are in a stable, caring relationship. I don't care if they wait until they are married, but I do hope they are 18 or so. I also realize that while I hopefully have an influence, I do not get to make the decision.

I personally do not think teen pregnancy is desirable. I'm not raising grandchildren, and I would hope my dds would have good educations, be married and economically independent before they have children. If they decide to be sexually active before they are financially settled, I want them to have all the information they need to keep from getting pregnant and contracting disease.

I also felt zero peer pressure to have sex when I was in high school or at any other time. I had many close friends, but I have no idea who was sexually active and who wasn't.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Greaseball, I talk of girls because I have daughters, and because I _know_ what it's like to be female, but I dont know what its like to be male.

I do think, however, that girls will often give into pressure, not necessarily peer pressure, but pressure from a boy himself, because they read all this stuff about romance and love and so on. When a boy wants sex with them, that's often what's in their minds. For most boys, that stuff is just sentimental garbage.

There is a difference imo between how boys and girls view sex at that age. That's a good reason imo for me to encourage my girls to wait until they have full maturity and understanding of that difference.

I don't think I'm really sentimental to want my daughters to have thier first, and second, and third, and fourth, and ........(fill in space) sexual experience to be with someone with whom they have a meaningful relationship. I think I'm just looking out for their emotional wellbeing. Like EFmum, I don't expect to make the decision for them, but I hope to influence them into making wise choices. And 'choices' is the operative word, I want them to choose, not to be persuaded by others, the media, or the teen culture.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Ugh, sons...I would have no idea what to teach a son about sex. At least with dd I can just pass along my own experiences and give her some insights. What would I tell a boy? Or would I just have to leave it all up to dh?

I don't know many guys who are upset that their first sexual experience wasn't "special." Most men I know don't wish they had waited; they wish they had sex earlier. They rarely have to worry about a "bad reputation" or sexual assault. The only things they have to worry about are diseases (which are easier for women to get than men) and having to pay child support or having their child aborted.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

what to teach a boy???

I plan to teach him to wait until he wants to, not to do it just to fit in but because he WANTS to. To be kind and considerate, to use protection, never EVER to force or pressure a girl to do it... that sex is but one of the three basic human drives, the others being food and shelter. That if he pays too much attention to only one the others will not come to him like they might if he is even keeled about it.

What is so different about what you would teach a girl?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think with girls there is more emphasis on "no one has the right to make you" and with boys you have to touch on "you can't coerce someone to go along with you." With girls, I'd want to tell them more about contraception; with boys I'd focus just on condoms. (Not that boys shouldn't know about other forms of birth control; it just won't be such a personal issue for them.)

Also, with girls there needs to be a lot more teaching about harmful attitudes and expectations that "the rest of the world" may have for them that aren't in place for boys.


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I think with girls there is more emphasis on "no one has the right to make you" and with boys you have to touch on "you can't coerce someone to go along with you."*
I think you have to put a huge emphasis on both of these with both genders.
No one has the right to made a boy have sex, either. It happens to boys, too.
And girls don't have the right to coerce boys to go along with them, either. Like I've been saying...teenaged girls are just as "bad" as teenaged boys have always been accused of being.


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

I never thought sex could be boring, but, Jiminy Cricket, this thread showed me otherwise....


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

there's just a tone in this thread that smacks of "boys are sexual predators and in no way does educating them compare to educating girls."

It pisses me off.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I don't see that at all, Pie.

I was excited when I saw that HB had posted.....I thought I was going to see some dry wit injected here.







But nada. I'm disappointed.

Lori


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by asherah_
*It is what it is for the people involved. And that is no one else's freaking business. Who am I to tell my son what his first time "SHOULD" be like?*








Well said!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Midnight Mom_
*Back when I was still christian and going to church, they had one of those ring/promise ceremonies for the teens in the church. I simply asked dd if she wanted to participate and she said no. No pressure from me.*
Midnight Mom - I just wanted to say that I think it's completely awesome that you have the sort of relationship with your daughter where you could ask her that question and she could comfortably tell you no.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

http://www.comics.com/comics/chickweed/

This happened to be today's comic...April 21...
:LOL


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I was excited when I saw that HB had posted.....I thought I was going to see some dry wit injected here. But nada. I'm disappointed.
Well, it's hit or miss with me... mostly miss, lately.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"there's just a tone in this thread that smacks of "boys are sexual predators and in no way does educating them compare to educating girls."

I don't see that Pie. Those of us talking about girls have been clear that this is because we have daughters.

But people are saying that maybe educating boys is different to educating boys, which seems a fair subject for discussion to me.

I'm sure that peer pressure or girlfriend pressure may play its part in boys' lives, but I cant see it being as common as the pressure put upon girls. SImple anatomy makes a difference, doesn't it?


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## MirandaW (Apr 22, 2002)

I believe in giving my kids enough information to make informed choices. I have chastized other people's teens about responsible sexuality when I felt that they were being too impulsive even if I was afraid that their parents would be upset.

However, it seems like sexual activity among teens is in the process of being criminalized and I still am not going to judge my children about when or if they are sexually active, but I will strongly encourage them to be 18 and certainly not younger than 16 to avoid the whole statutory rape scenario.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but my son is African American and we live in predominantly white area and I don't want him to have any hassles. I remember the thread about that boy in Georgia and I remember this story as well. Actually, the deceased was in one of my classes, but that was a whole other can of worms.

Either way, I don't want my kids lives ruined because of sex.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I know that boys are sexually victimized by girls more often than we will ever realize, but I still don't believe that it happens to them just as much as it happens to girls.

I don't know one woman IRL who has never been sexually assaulted. I know a lot of men who haven't been.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Greaseball, I think you're right. We'll never know the rates of boys victimized, like we'll never know the figures for girls.

But the truth is, I personally know two girls under the age of consent who have now given up all ambitions for college or decent jobs to raise babies born from being 'ushed by boys into sex when their better judgement told them not to. I don't know of any boys who've had to give up their dreams to do the same thing.

Plus of course the girls I know who have been in the same predicament but terminated the pregnancy.

All are teenaged daughters of friends of mine. Which leads me to be very concerned to raise my girls to have the strength of character and self-esteem to say no. And not to get themselves into dangerous or stupid situations in the first place.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, you are not alone Pie.. I see some pretty nasty gender stereotyping here, too.

I guess my consciousness has been raised being the mother of a son.

And those of you who seem to see these huge gender differences.. Do you think really think you are doing your daughters any service by implying that boys/men are just out to coerce them into doing things they don't want to do?

What a great way to ruin their future relationships.. by instilling a sense of distrust in the other gender. I would be careful of my words about this... they could be pretty damaging.

I daresay some of this peer pressure on girls comes from OTHER GIRLS.

And no doubt there is peer pressure on BOYS to be "studly".. and to have sex before they are ready.

I do not see myself telling my son anything different than I would tell a daughter.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"instilling a sense of distrust in the other gender"










"I see some pretty nasty gender stereotyping here, too."

Sorry, I don't see either. Nobody is saying that they _all boys_ are one way or _all girls_ are another. But I cannot get away from the belief from so many experiences in my life that a girl is more likely to be pressured into sex by a boy than the other way around. Certainly, I look back on several incidents where but for my strength of character and a little luck, I'd have been one of those statutory rape figures, but not able to prove it.
Most of my girlfriends would recount similar experiences.

Dh cannot think of a single incident where he went through the same thing. He _can_ recall being in a position where he _could_ have had sex as a young teenager, but not going ahead because of a feeling that it was wrong to coerce, however little coercion might have been needed.

Which is my point. The likelihood of this happening to a girl is fairly certain. To a boy, it's a possibility.

This is not to say that _most_ boys will coerce a girl, I dont believe that to be true. But there are enuogh of them aroudn to be a threat to young girls. (Just ask the two teenagers I know with babies right now. Struggling to survive as 16 yr olds with babies. Where are the boys - both older than them? Getting on with their lives.)

Just because I perceive a real issue for my daughters that I need to educate them about doesnt mean that I am stereotyping all boys. I am being realistic about what might happen to them and I want to prepare them for that. I look back and think thank god a little voice told me as a young teenager not to believe the military guy who told me at a party that he'd 'stop the moment you say no'. I know that I _wanted_ to believe him, but I also wanted to believe all his @#$% about how he adored me. I'd not had any real sex education and my refusal was based on that one little voice that made me suspicious. A lucky break. I want my daughters to be more informed so that they can see through that sort of #^#$ easily.

As for sons, I wouldn't have to warn them abuot girls doing to them what that guy did to me. But I would want to educate them about peer pressure and the moral wrongness of coercion for sex or anythign else. My _emphasis_ would be different.

Is this 'nasty gender stereotyping' or simply responding to different people's educational and developmental needs?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

My conciousness has definitely been 'raised' being the mother of a girl.... but I am about to become the mother of a boy as well, and I for one would never advocate instilling a sense of distrust for the opposite gender. Hopefully, having positive healthy relationships with both genders throughout your childhood and adolescence is all that is really needed. I look forward to finding out about being the mother of a boy....


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:

_
I daresay some of this peer pressure on girls comes from OTHER GIRLS.

And no doubt there is peer pressure on BOYS to be "studly".. and to have sex before they are ready.

I do not see myself telling my son anything different than I would tell a daughter. [/B]_
_
_
_
two excellent points asha

of COURSE boys and girls face different challenges in life. HOw much of it honestly is because of how they are RAISED to be different? If you teach your son one thing about sex and your daughter another, what are you doing but adding to the gender conflict?

And I do see it, but you are welcome to say you don't. I am not going back to quote people in order to call them out so the thread can be shut down._


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Pie..

It makes me so sad that my son will have to deal with certain attitudes toward gender. That he will be painted with that broad brush as he learns about love and sexuality.

Date rape etc. are realities.
One has to warn one's children.. ALL children... about the danger signs. I will talk to my son about how it is a crime of power.. and warn him to be careful about his behavior.

One has to warn ALL children about sexual manipulation and coersion.

But I swear, some of the words in here have made me tear up, looking at my boy's sweet face.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

yeah asherah

and I don't feel like I am being ignorant about the dangers for our girls. I lost my virginity to date rape at fifteen. I was told it was my fault before too, for being alone and making out with him.

I think maybe if his parents had paid attention to his needs there is a better chance this would have happened.

If we would only treat our children a little more similarly, and educate them on everything the other sex is being taught about sex, things would likely go more smoothly. It's kind of like boys being exluded from the menstruation class in fifth grade. Just because they don't menstruate doesn't mean it's not a fact of life.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

This is not to say that most boys will coerce a girl, I dont believe that to be true.
There is a difference between saying "Most boys are rapists" and "Most girls will be raped."


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"But I swear, some of the words in here have made me tear up, looking at my boy's sweet face."

Asherah, if some of my words have upset you, I sincerely apologise. I am in _no way_ saying that all boys, or most boys, or the majority of boys, or any statistic of boys, might try to coerce a girl into sex. I am saying that it is a fact that I wish my daughters to be aware of.

Of course, I want them to have healthy, happy relationships with boys as they grow up - in fact, more of their friends are boys than girls, and I like it that way. Nobody here is talking about teaching them to distrust men. I am talking about them having the knowledge, self-awareness and self-esteem to be able to stand up to coercion from the one or two men/boys in their lifetime who might try to coerce them. After all, it only takes one act of coercion and that girl's life is altered forever. (and I'm sure that such acts of coercion happen to boys, but the incidents are not so frequent imo nor are they so obvious. As I said before, they are not left quite literally holding the baby. Although of course there are the issues of stds etc that are equally as bad if not worse.)

As for calling anyone out and getting the thread closed, that attitude imo is sad. Sure, we can knee-jerk and call gender issues 'stereotyping' and 'prejudice'. But I don't personally believe that the genders are the same. They are imo different. Not unequal, but different. Therefore imo parents of girls face different challenges to parents of boys. Girls face different challenges in life to boys. I don't think that we need to dumb things down and call boys and girls the same. IMO they are not the same. They are equal but different.

That's the discussion I'd like to see, honest opinions being shared about the differences (or not) between the genders. Certainly, many of the challenges that I face even now wiht yuong daughters are different to those of my friends with sons. And my kids don't watch TV. They don't go to school. The outside influences are minimal. I bought them 'boys' toys, 'girls' toys, gender neutral toys. But their behaviours are different to those of many boys their age.

I don't see that treating my girls as girls not as gender neutral beings will add to any gender conflict. Many lessons they need will be the same as those that a boy needs. But some of the emphasis may be different. I dont see that respondnig to a girl as a girl is adding to any conflict. It is being honest and responding to needs.

And who knows, my next baby may be a boy and I will know what it is like to parent a boy.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I hear what you are saying and I need to clarify that what I meant is NOT to gender neuter boys and girls. I am saying that SEX ED IS SEX ED. Boys and girls should hear what the other hears.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yes, they should. I don't agree with the whole "Send the boys to the cafeteria while the girls watch the period movie."

Maybe these future men won't be complete idiots when it comes to finding the clitoris if they can sit in on the "female anatomy" part of the class. Although from what I've read, abstinence-only education has made it so the clitoris is no longer discussed. It's not even included in the anatomy diagram.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Greaseball, can that be true??!!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

That's what I read in a book called Slut: Growing Up Female With a Bad Reputation by Leora Tanenbaum.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Boys and girls should hear what the other hears."

ITA. Having taught sex ed, however, I think it is easier to be taught mostly in single sex groups.

However, when we as parents teach sex ed - which I think is our responsibility and certainly shouldnt be left to schools alone - I believe that we will naturally tailor our teaching to our children. Which means that we will naturally teach according to gender to
_some extent._ I believe that our emphasis will be different, because our chidlren bring to the learning their own individuality, whcih includes gender.

Therefore, I have no serious expectation if I ever have a boy, of talking about the unrealistic view of life presented in romance novels with him. It won't surprise me if I have that discussion with my daughters. Similarly, I don't really expect to have issues with my dds about guns or violent video games. They are already terrified by a pop gun in a Winnie the Pooh story LOL. I watch my nephews, on the other hand, and see how my sister has needed to give guidance on very different issues to her sons than to her daughters.

Now, how far these 'differences' are learned and how far they are inherent is debatable. I'd say it's a mix. But I think that serious discussion about gender issues and differences is interesting and useful as we all address parenting challenges. We also need to bear in mind that while many of us are trying to raise our children to respect the opposite sex, there are others who are learning by example not to do so. Being realistic, we need to prepare our children as good citizens of the future who can deal with those who did not have such an enlightened upbringing.

Hope this makes sense, children are noisy here!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I had sex ed starting in grade 4 (back then it was just stuff about body parts) and it was never segregated. According to Title IX, all school grades may have segregated sex ed classes but the classes must be equal in "educational quality."







:


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Although from what I've read, abstinence-only education has made it so the clitoris is no longer discussed. It's not even included in the anatomy diagram.*
I remember sitting through an "almost" abstinence only class (about 99% don't have sex, and maybe 1% but if you do, use a condom). We were not taught about any other form of birth control, we were not taught where to get condoms, or how to use condoms (both genders were in the same class).
And most definately, the clitoris was not discussed. It was not listed on any anatomy diagrams (I still have the book...we had to buy our books in high school). It was not discussed in the text. In fact, the only discussion of the outer female anatomy was is "urethra" and "vaginal opening". The text also mentions the "labia", but does not tell what the labia actually is.
The inner female anatomy is discussed only slightly more in depth (uterus/womb, fallopian tubes, ovaries, egg).
The male anatomy is kept to this...penis, testicles, testicular sac. The only time sperm is mentioned is in one sentence "The sperm (carried in the male ejaculate) fertilizes the egg (released once monthly from the ovary), and a pregnancy forms."
I remember snickering at the fact that it was never once mentioned exactly HOW that sperm got close enough to fertilize that egg.

And JFTR, this book is "Growing Into Men and Women", and was the "textbook" used for sophmore Health in a middle class, suburban high school in Indiana. This would also be the same school where we were not allowed to say the word "pregnant" in the performance of the play "Grease", even though there was a pregnant 5th grader at the time. AND, the very same school where I remember watching the superintendant on the local news saying "There are no drugs or drug users in Franklin Township, and certainly not attending our high school." While I was watching him, I was sitting in the high school theatre control booth, passing one around with my friends...go figure.


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## calgal007 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by grnbn76_
*I remember watching the superintendant on the local news saying "There are no drugs or drug users in Franklin Township, and certainly not attending our high school." While I was watching him, I was sitting in the high school theatre control booth, passing one around with my friends...go figure.*
:LOL :LOL :LOL


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Okay. (takes deep breath)

I am not saying we should raise our children to be "gender neutral.."
It would be impossible to do that in our culture even if we decided it was of value to do so.
I don't know to what degree gender roles are determined by culture or by biology. And science, while it can tell us about bio-chemical and neurological differences.. can't yet answer how those things translate into behavior.

But that does not come to bear on teaching about sex and sexuality, for me. I believe boys/girls need to hear the same messages.. of respect and responsibility. Of valuing other humans. Of the issues surrounding sexual coersion. To me, there is nothing to be gained and everything to be lost in presenting sexuality and sexual responsibility as different for the different genders. I believe it IS just as important for my son to understand what sexually victimizing someone is about as it is for a girl.

I guess what concerns me about some of what I have read in here is that I think there also needs to be some awareness of what messages we may inadvertantly be sending our kids when we talk about these things.

What I want for young girls is to of course be empowered enough to make strong, wise decisions about sex without internalizing the message that they should see themselves as potential victims. I think that creates a VERY DANGEROUS potential for self-fulfilling prophecy. And for relationships created out of fear instead of love.

Nor do I want my son to have to deal with internalized messages that he is, first and foremost, a potential predator. And I guess that is what hurts me. The idea that for all the work I am doing to help my son grow into a loving, gentle, respectful, honorable man.. he's going to be viewed by some with automatic suspicion.
Nothing I can do about that, I guess. But it is extrordinarily painful. AND I am not accusing ANYONE in this thread of being out to do that. But some word choices in here have made me come to ponder it. And it hurts.

So I guess I just think that we should choose our words very very carefully when discussing these things.. or we risk creating and re-creating the very things we say we are trying to avoid.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I just think that we should choose our words very very carefully when discussing these things.. "

I agree. The trouble is though that when someone posts and thinks that they are being clear, their words may upset someone else who interprets them differently to how they were perhaps meant.

ITA that all young people need the same messages about respect and responsibility. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

I have no intention of raising my daughters to be 'potential victims' nor of creating self-fulfilling prophesies. As a mother of girls, that comment stings: it cuts both ways. But then, I know that this is not what I am doing, just as I know that I am not raising my daughters to fear your sons. So, I can choose to be upset, or not, by such a comment. I choose not to be, as I am genuinely interested in discussion. I don't think that we are actually far apart in our thinking, maybe just in our interpretation about what one another mean. That's my guess, anyway









There is a fine line between raising children to be aware and raising them to be fearful. Fearful does not help them to be self-sufficient. But I believe that not to give them a realistic view of the world could lead them to be potential victims. In 'Protecting the Gift' there is a section about giving children the vocabulary and language to enable them to be able to talk about their bodies and so be more likely to resist abuse. I think that is vital from a young age.

As for internalized messages, it is no more desirable for boys to take one that they are potential predators than for girls to take one that they are potential victims. I do want my girls to understand about situations that could be potentially dangerous for them, and to know how to avoid them. That is just part of teaching them about personal safety, imo, and is no reflection upon the millions of good men out there, but is a reflection upon the small number of bad ones.

As for being viewed with automatic suspicion, I guess its a fact of life that in some situations men will be viewed suspiciously by women. Dh has learned this, as he has a tendency to go up to anyone and chat. Just recently, I was with him at a park with the children, but a group of women obviously didnt realise he was with me. One of the womens' young daughters was sitting near our dd, and dh tried to start up a conversation with the mother. She looked uncomfortable and moved away with her dd swiftly. Dh commented to me afterwards that he just hadnt thought how his approach would make her feel uncomfortable, but that she had done the right thing. And that he knew that I'd have done the same thing in her shoes. It's sad that a well-intentioned man can't approach someone without suspicion being aroused, but a fact of life. One of the things in Protecting the Gift that I thuoght was very true is that we can be so hung up about being polite and not offending someone that we can put ourselves into dangerous situations.

I have never really thought about it before, but I think that maybe one thing that boys need to learn is that in some situations they might make women feel nervous, and that they need to adapt to take this into account. Eg, dh would never walk behind a woman in a dark street if she looked back at him nervously and would hold back, look in a window or something and let her move away. He would never hurt someone, but she doesnt know that, does she? But isnt that an aspect of respect?

Translate that to teenagers, and maybe they need to learn about situations that might make a girl feel nervous, and that these situations are best avoided? I'm just musing here, but it seems to me that if one of my rules for my dds until a certain age (undecided until we get to that stage) will be that they go out and travel in groups not couples, maybe boys need the same rules? That way, all are protected. Is that stereotyping boys, or is it simply being practical and avoiding difficult situations for both genders?

This is interesting because its making me think about what my emphasis would be if raising boys not girls. And going back to the original quote, maybe my words here are "creating and re-creating the very things we say we are trying to avoid" but if we are to continue to discuss, that may be unavoidable? And to me, it is a shame to halt a discussion because of possible interpretations of what is being said.

(Taking deep breaths too as it's difficult when you know you're probalby offending just by discussing.







)


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

A question, getting back on topic.

Where are these 'abstinence' movement classes taught? In school or in separate programmes in churches? So, if a kid gets the abstinence lectures in church, is he or she still getting sex ed at school?

These types of classes are certainly not fashionable in the UK, thankfully.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Are you in the UK or US now? Abstinence-only sex ed in public schools is not just a threat; it's been going on for a while now. I think different schools do it differently; some, for example, will discuss contraception but only the bad stuff about it.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I'm in the US but dont use schools. Is it whole school boards, individual schools, states? How common?

And how extreme is the emphasis on abstinence - ie a recommendation, an ideal, anabsolute?


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## MirandaW (Apr 22, 2002)

Sex ed curricula are ususally approved by the local school board. HOWEVER, there has been a recent proposal to restrict federal funding to abstinance-only programs.

Personally, I don't see how knowing how your body works and how to make your body feel good as well as protect yourself from disease is mutally exclusive with abstinance. Here's what to expect if/when you decide to have sexual relations. What's wrong with that?

The truly scary thing is that my Catholic school upbringing better prepared me to take charge of my sexual health than most of my public schooled peers. I knew how birth control worked, the mechanics of sex, emotional considerations, etc. I was taught by a wonderfully open instructor how to navigate through relationships. I also never felt pressured to have sex until I was ready.

To Asherah and Pie: I really hope you didn't think that I was trying to imply that boys are all potential predators with my post earlier. Nothing could be further from the truth. For my boys, I am more worried about them getting hauled into court because of consensual sex with an underclasswoman. That's the only reason I will advise them to delay sex until they are legally adults and to only have sex with other legal adults. I'll tell my dd the same thing. In the mean time, I want them to know how their bodies and the bodies of the opposite sex work and to not be ashamed or embarassed by that. I want to know how to get birth control and what forms are the most effective at preventing pregnancy and preventing STDs.

I have been pregnant outside of a commited relationship and I had to deal with STDs, largely because after I was sexually assaulted by someone I trusted, I had sexual hangups that prevented me from thinking clearly. And I had a mother who thought/thinks sex is dirty and bad, so when I was assaulted I felt responsible for it.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*I'm in the US but dont use schools. Is it whole school boards, individual schools, states? How common?

And how extreme is the emphasis on abstinence - ie a recommendation, an ideal, anabsolute?*
I've wondered that as well. Maybe you could post a question in the teens forum about what kind of sex ed their kids are getting?

Though most of the sex ed I got was lame, when I was a sophomore our HIV education rocked! It was taught by a student panel, not a health or PE teacher, and it barely mentioned abstinence at all because of course everyone knows that abstinence is a way to not get HIV! It mentioned watching pornography and going to strip clubs as sexual activities with no risk of getting HIV, and even touched on S&M games that did not involve bleeding. They talked about all the different kinds of condoms, as well as where we could get them for free. (The school did not dispense them, but the nurses would give you a note to take to the health dept and they would give you 50 condoms there.) It was great. And here I am, without HIV! I wonder what the program consists of now.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Thanks Miranda.

I am so sad for my son right now. Sad that people think HE should bear the burden for what other men may or may not do. He should watch where he walks, who he talks to.. be self conscious every moment he is out in the world because someone MIGHT see him as a predator. Maybe we should just ban men from having anything to do with children, ever, because someone COULD see them as a predator. And because, after all, men are more likely to be predators. Just a fact of life.

Maybe I should teach my son that he should be careful who he has sex with because women sometimes lie about being on birth control. Or lie about who has fathered their child. Maybe I should teach him he should be careful because some malicious women DO lie about being coerced. Those are all facts of life too. Should I parent out of fear, out of assumptions and negative stereotypes?

No, I will not. I will not bury his growing sexuality under fear and projections of the WORST of human behavior. NO. I will not do that anymore than I will bury it under a concept of "sin" that I don't believe in. I will teach sexuality from JOY not fear. He will come to know the WORST of the human condition, unfortunately, no matter what I teach him.

And discussions of personal safety and "protecting the gift" will certainly be held.. but NOT in the context of sexuality. I am NOT going to link the two in my son's mind. What a horrid, horrid message to send to my son about his sexuality.

This conversation is pointless now, I know.
I am sorry for interrupting the rest of you.
I will stop now.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Sad that people think HE should bear the burden for what other men may or may not do.
I think it's sad that women have to bear the burden of what men do to them. It was not the doing or the fault of the woman, yet she bears it.

Quote:

He should watch where he walks, who he talks to.. be self conscious every moment he is out in the world
This is how women often live. It's not fair either way.

As soon as sexual assault stops being a fact of life for many people, things can get back to being fair.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Asherah, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I've tried to discuss openly and honestly and not hurt feelings, but clearly I've failed.









It seems that what I say will be taken the wrong way, and I'm sorry about that too. What else can I say?

I don't think that your son or anyones son should bear the burden for what some men do. But nor do I think that my daughters shuold have to avoid walking out alone at night or should not go out jogging wearing a walkman. But facts are, that is the way they need to live if they are going to stay safe. That's the way I live, and I'd be irresponsible to recommend that they do otherwise.

Is the reality of rape a 'negative stereotype.? Not in my opinion.

I have tried to explain clearly that I am not talking of raising my children in fear, but in a realistic way in the real world. Which sadly, includes danger. And people who are not raised by mothers or fathers who instil respect for others.

Parenting my way, I can assure you, is not out of fear. It is out of a realistic analysis of the world and how it works.

But I've tried to explain that, and as you say, it seems pointless.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I thought we were talking about SEXUALITY.
Some people apparently see sexual ASSAULT as an issue of sexuality. I do not.
I see it as a CRIME. A crime of POWER and hatred. And of course I think women need to understand the reality of it and how protect themselves. And men need to take responsibility for it.. in terms of working to change the culture that feeds it... and disowning the culture of violence we live in.

But I personally would have that be a separate discussion from SEX education. Sexual ASSAULT education is not SEXUALITY education. And I personally think mixing the two sends a terrible message.

And Greaseball.. I am really not sure what you are saying.
I am not sure how forcing my son to walk around with a metaphorical sign saying "I am not a predator" will keep women safer or make up for the c%^& they have to put up with.

And.. while I certainly do take personal safety into consideration, and try to make smart choices, I do not walk the world in fear. I have traveled all around the world alone, safely. I do not think the fact of sexual assault means women have to live in constant fear. That's one response.. but not the only one.

And I am not about to share my own experiences to justify what I am saying.. I in no way feel safe enough to do that here.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Asherah, I certainly dont see sexual assault as an aspect of sexualilty and agree that it is generally to do with power. And I certainly don't advocate mixing that with sex education, and didnt say so here.

We led onto the topic of assault and the reality of educating chidlren of the dangers from the discussion about whether we need to give boys and girls different emphasis in their sexual education. You don't think that there should be any difference in emphasis, I disagree.

As I said at the beginning, I believe it is far more likely that a girl will be coerced into having sex than a boy. That's not to say that boys wont have pressures upon them, but the likelihood of a girl being coerced is greater imo. And that would influence the way that I educate a girl vs a boy.

As for fear, I said several times that I am not talking about walking around in fear. I am talking about having a realistic view of the world. As you said, you have travelled and have made smart choices. That's what I want to help my daughters to do. What did I say that was any different to that?









As for your son or mine, no he should not go around all his life being self-consciuos that someone might see him as a predator. But if I have a son in the future, I would want to raise him too to be aware of these issues and to be mindful of where he might make a girl feel vulnerable, and where he needs to be respectful of that fact and back off. Wouldnt that also be a way of him being protected, as you say, from false allegations? That would include hanging back if following a woman on a dark street, or backing off if a woman seemed anxious by his friendliness in a park (which was my point about dh) Not that he must never talk to anyone in public - where did I say anything so extreme? But that he needs to be mindful of the issues and respectful of other people's feelings.

As far as sex ed, I believe that both genders need the same information, but sexuality is not an issue out on its own. It is a part of human relationships and as part of that, I want my girls to have the tools to withstand possible coercion (and where does 'persuasion' become 'assault' - there is a fine line, isn't there?) So my influence over all number of things will add up to give my girls a healthy view of sexuality and their power to choose. Which is what it is all about - choice.

I have first hand experience of where 'persuasion' crossed the boundaries and became imo 'assualt'. And as I said before, the teenage girl is left to carry the burden. I dont think that you can separate out the reality of that from sex ed. Schools don't need to touch upon it, but I see sex ed as my job as a parent, and I see that reality as part of the educatoin that sadly my girls will need to have. Not in a fearful way - I keep saying that, but you assume that I'm talking about fear when I'm talking about reality and practical ways to avoid danger.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I've been thinking a lot about this thread and last night remembered some research I read a while back about anti-drug education.

The researchers compared the 'Just say No' type programmes with ones where young people got to role play and practice responses to situations. They considered the whole picture - the human response to peer pressure etc in addition to the 'evilness' of drugs line.

The children who underwent the more comprehensive programme and were given practice in the language of 'no' were significantly better at saying no in future years.

It would seem to me that any sex ed programme needs to take the same approach to be successful. Give children the facts. And give options, abstinence being one of them. Then give them the language to be assertive. That might be as simple as practicing saying "I'm not going to have sex with you," (for some kids, just using the word 'sex' let alone 'no' would be a challenge), to "I won't have sex without using a condom."

Handing out ideals withuot tools to follow them thruogh is fairly useless imo, for most children. But then, I think that the responsibility for sex ed lies mainly in the home, but unfortunately imo a lot of parents are unable or unwilling to give clear guidance. Maybe because their own sex ed was lacking.


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