# Bail out-What are you stocking up on III--support group



## JTA Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok, I'm doing this again, lol. The other thread is at 15 pages AGAIN. Geez, we do like to talk!









Second Old thread here

Here's the one that started it all

Also, I'd like to make this incarnation of the thread into a SUPPORT GROUP thread. If people want to debate the usefullness/less of stockpiling, why not to stockpile,etc, there are other threads for that, Like this one. I find that debates about stockpiling clutter up the sharing of knowldege aspect of a thread like this one.

So, now that we have a nice new thread, I'll repost my two questions.

Anyone have any yummy bean soup recipes. The hillbilly housewife recipe was just 'eh'. Two mammas responded and told me to add spices at the end. Is this the trick to making yummy bean soup? I've always followed recipes that told me to put in all my flavorings (nothing acid though) at the beginning of boiling the beans. Is that where I went wrong?

And the second question was how to make ghee. Anyone care to share? Also, is it solid when refrigerated or does it stay liquid? I'm used to using liquid fats, and dh LOVES butter & complains (well, not really, more like wonders) why I don't cook with it often. Using ghee might change that.

Thanks!

Ami


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

I dont know how to make bean soup but refried beans are always yummy.







:
We had some tonight.

I'll be watching for those soup recipes.. I doubt I could get my husband to eat them though.

Whats ghee? >.>


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JTA Mom* 

So, now that we have a nice new thread, I'll repost my two questions.

Anyone have any yummy bean soup recipes. The hillbilly housewife recipe was just 'eh'. Two mammas responded and told me to add spices at the end. Is this the trick to making yummy bean soup? I've always followed recipes that told me to put in all my flavorings (nothing acid though) at the beginning of boiling the beans. Is that where I went wrong?

And the second question was how to make ghee. Anyone care to share? Also, is it solid when refrigerated or does it stay liquid? I'm used to using liquid fats, and dh LOVES butter & complains (well, not really, more like wonders) why I don't cook with it often. Using ghee might change that.

Thanks!

Ami

Depends on the spices but generally I throw them in either at the end of cooking or the last hour or so but it depends on the flavor and if it needs to be fully cooked to release its flavor.


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## shelbell (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JTA Mom* 
And the second question was how to make ghee. Anyone care to share? Also, is it solid when refrigerated or does it stay liquid? I'm used to using liquid fats, and dh LOVES butter & complains (well, not really, more like wonders) why I don't cook with it often. Using ghee might change that.

I've never made it at home, but it looks very easy. I had like 8 lbs of unsalted, organic butter that I purchased near-date for $1/lb. All of it was in my freezer, and I kept meaning to make ghee with some of it, but never got around to it. Now it's all gone after Ike. Oh well - at least I have an excuse to keep bargain hunting for more!

Check out this recipe - great pictures to follow.


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## Ianthe (Dec 19, 2006)

Hello again.... subbing for now


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I follow the recipe on the back of the bag of 15 bean soup mix







(It's just a bag of 15 types of beans, no seasonging packet or anything).


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

So how open are you guys with your neighbors about stocking up? My family knows and my best friend, that's it!!!! I've only told ppl IRL that I'm willing to take in if necessary. If TSHTF I'd probably pack up my year's supply and move in with my best friend's family anyway (they can't afford to stock up right now, but have a wood burning cook stove etc. and a spare bedroom, they also are set up to have chickens so we could take our chickens with us and be a mutual benefit to eachother).


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Again - what does the current economic crisis have to do with stockpiling? Is it a) in the event that the money-earning member(s) of the household loses their job(s), b) in the belief that there is an imminent (meaning: next six months) food shortage on the horizon, or c) because of a coming social and cultural collapse? Or another reason?

I can understand A. I can't understand how B or C seems realistic.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
So how open are you guys with your neighbors about stocking up? My family knows and my best friend, that's it!!!! I've only told ppl IRL that I'm willing to take in if necessary. If TSHTF I'd probably pack up my year's supply and move in with my best friend's family anyway (they can't afford to stock up right now, but have a wood burning cook stove etc. and a spare bedroom, they also are set up to have chickens so we could take our chickens with us and be a mutual benefit to eachother).

So if there was some dire food shortage, you would turn your neighbors away?

And exactly what is meant by "if the shit hits the fan" - what shit, and what fan? What possibility are you considering?


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I'd have to say A is my main concern really with the combination of rising food prices. I'm not worried about a food shortage or a cultural collapse, just my ability to afford food. Except the huge amount of wheat my parents left behind I have maybe three months worth of food. I don't think that is extreme and is about what we normally keep. It's been enough to get us through tough times in the past. It got depleted this year due to lack of work and I'm trying to build it back up quickly because I am concerned about prices.


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## Ianthe (Dec 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
So how open are you guys with your neighbors about stocking up?

Our family, and you guys!

If we have to move in with MIL we'll be sharing resources. She does not have any food storage, except what we brought over to her house. We'll share our spring water with the neighbors there.. but honestly, we live in LDS country, so I doubt we'd really have a problem with looters in her small LDS-majority town.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
I'd have to say A is my main concern really with the combination of rising food prices. I'm not worried about a food shortage or a cultural collapse, just my ability to afford food. Except the huge amount of wheat my parents left behind I have maybe three months worth of food. I don't think that is extreme and is about what we normally keep. It's been enough to get us through tough times in the past. It got depleted this year due to lack of work and I'm trying to build it back up quickly because I am concerned about prices.

I'm definitely worried about that, too. There were several times in the last year where we simply didn't have money to go to the grocery store, but managed to use our Aldi reserves of pancake mix, etc to feed the kids.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

My thought on IFTSHTF is hyperinflation and many more job losses due to a stock market crash and a crash is looking pretty likely the way the DOW is going.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Again - what does the current economic crisis have to do with stockpiling? Is it a) in the event that the money-earning member(s) of the household loses their job(s), b) in the belief that there is an imminent (meaning: next six months) food shortage on the horizon, or c) because of a coming social and cultural collapse? Or another reason?

I can understand A. I can't understand how B or C seems realistic.

Well I'm a daycare provider. If my daycare parents loose their jobs our income will be cut in half. DH is in law enforcement with 12 years seniority, so his job is probably safe. Recently I went 3 months without pay because California didn't have a state budget and most of my daycare kids are state subsidized. I don't know if there will be a food shortage. I'm more worried about the unemployment rate. If I hadn't always been a stockpiler my family would have starved and I would have had to shut my daycare down....making my financial situation even worse that it allready was. Being able to keep my daycare open, I did eventually start getting paid again once the budget was signed. I even got back pay for the time there wasn't a budget. Those 85 or so days without a state budget caused many daycares in my community to go out of business. I certainly was an economic crisis for those families involved (providers and daycare parents).


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
So if there was some dire food shortage, you would turn your neighbors away?

And exactly what is meant by "if the shit hits the fan" - what shit, and what fan? What possibility are you considering?

If you're asking if I would let my own children go hungry to feed the neighbors? What do you think? My neighbors don't know I store food, and YES my first priority is my own family. I also don't vaccinate my children. I could care less about herd immunity, my first priority is my own children (the oldest is vaccine damaged). I can't risk the health of my own family to help others, sorry. I WOULD certainly help neighbors plant gardens, set up for chickens etc. If we got a community garden going I might even share what we have while waiting for the harvest, but NOT to the detriment of my own children.


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## Contrariety (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizzyQ* 
Our family, and you guys!

If we have to move in with MIL we'll be sharing resources. She does not have any food storage, except what we brought over to her house. We'll share our spring water with the neighbors there.. but honestly, we live in LDS country, so I doubt we'd really have a problem with looters in her small LDS-majority town.

I certainly hope that's the case, Lizzy... but I'm also not betting on it. *No one* I know that none of my friends have well stocked pantries, they think I'm a weirdo. I was perusing some of my dad's religious propaganda material and it was pretty inspirational for independent living. The ideal is there, but I'm not sure how many people actually attempt to follow it.

My grandma, who raised my dad and sibs on a farm, has one rockin' full cellar. The woman is amazing and a total inspiration.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Again - what does the current economic crisis have to do with stockpiling? Is it a) in the event that the money-earning member(s) of the household loses their job(s), b) in the belief that there is an imminent (meaning: next six months) food shortage on the horizon, or c) because of a coming social and cultural collapse? Or another reason?

I can understand A. I can't understand how B or C seems realistic.

Isn't "A" enough of a reason? Does there need to be more than one reason?????


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

I can totally relate to all of that. So my question, then, is why do these conversations turn into talk of living off the land and foraging in the wilderness? Surely it would make more sense to talk about the kind of techniques our grandparents used to get through the depression and, in Europe, strict WWII rationing? Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about how to stretch food, how to make and repair clothing, how to fix things we already have? I guess where I disconnect from this conversation is when the talk turns to worldwide collapses and having to physically defend your food supply from gangs of looting neighbors. The stuff about the dollar becoming useless, electricity being shut off...I just think it makes an otherwise VERY useful discussion silly. KWIM?


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

My husband was without work for about three months this year despite many resumes sent out and contacts made. I know he is not alone in that. Thankfully about two weeks ago he found a nice full time job here in our tiny little town that pays the bills and buys food without requiring a big commute. I took on a babysitting job and it's that money I am using for replenishing our supply. I have added in household supplies I've seen on sale like an extra pack of soap and an extra bottle of shampoo. I will be buying extra quilts etc to try and keep our heat bill down. I also bought a nice dutch oven in case of lack of power so I can still cook food plus I've always wanted one to take camping. So while I am doing this all more quickly than normal it's not stuff I don't normally do, I just like to be prepared for possible emergencies like power outage, higher food prices and job loss.


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## Contrariety (Jul 16, 2007)

So I was reading Pearl S. Buck's _The Good Earth_ over the weekend... and that has me scared of marauding robbers in case of famine. I really don't think people are remotely prepared for the possibility of famine, not to mention the actuality of it!







:

I keep mostly quiet. I have two close neighbors who know I've been stockin' up, and my family knows, too. My fam has a contingency plan. Assuming it's no the dead of winter, we're packing up our food storage and high tailing it to the family cabin, safely away from the starving masses (hopefully).

I *so* need to take a survival/foraging course.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
My husband was without work for about three months this year despite many resumes sent out and contacts made. I know he is not alone in that. Thankfully about two weeks ago he found a nice full time job here in our tiny little town that pays the bills and buys food without requiring a big commute. I took on a babysitting job and it's that money I am using for replenishing our supply. I have added in household supplies I've seen on sale like an extra pack of soap and an extra bottle of shampoo. I will be buying extra quilts etc to try and keep our heat bill down. I also bought a nice dutch oven in case of lack of power so I can still cook food plus I've always wanted one to take camping. So while I am doing this all more quickly than normal it's not stuff I don't normally do, I just like to be prepared for possible emergencies like power outage, higher food prices and job loss.

Jenivere, do you have a copy of The Tightwad Gazette? It's really great for making, fixing, stretching, etc your resources. It also has a section about what does and doesn't make sense to buy in bulk or stockpile. Super useful.


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

I must agree with the concerns posisted re: our thread focus. I want to participate in this discussion, but for me, preparing for a possible future depression doesn't really = TSHTF. After researching more about what happened in Argentina, I feel that we are probably better being in the infastructure than way out in the country. I'd like to consider some food storage, but also other things. Not just stockpiling food.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I can totally relate to all of that. So my question, then, is why do these conversations turn into talk of living off the land and foraging in the wilderness? Surely it would make more sense to talk about the kind of techniques our grandparents used to get through the depression and, in Europe, strict WWII rationing? Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about how to stretch food, how to make and repair clothing, how to fix things we already have? I guess where I disconnect from this conversation is when the talk turns to worldwide collapses and having to physically defend your food supply from gangs of looting neighbors. The stuff about the dollar becoming useless, electricity being shut off...I just think it makes an otherwise VERY useful discussion silly. KWIM?

No I don't...and I don;t think most of the people on this thread do.

Knowing survival information is very useful. What if I got lost hiking in the woods?

We are just talking about everything. We aren't saying it is going to happen.









*So is anyone making any major shopping trips this weekend?
We are going to Grocery outlet, Cash and Carry and possibly Costco.

Also, DH got paid today so we are taking cash out of the bank that we would normally leave in and rely on our debit card. Not this week, though.

You guys watching the stock market????? I can't believe what is happening!!*


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## Contrariety (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I can totally relate to all of that. So my question, then, is why do these conversations turn into talk of living off the land and foraging in the wilderness? Surely it would make more sense to talk about the kind of techniques our grandparents used to get through the depression and, in Europe, strict WWII rationing? Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about how to stretch food, how to make and repair clothing, how to fix things we already have? I guess where I disconnect from this conversation is when the talk turns to worldwide collapses and having to physically defend your food supply from gangs of looting neighbors. The stuff about the dollar becoming useless, electricity being shut off...I just think it makes an otherwise VERY useful discussion silly. KWIM?

When I think worst-case scenario, I think WORST-CASE SCENARIO. I wouldn't say the discussion is silly, either. The fact is that without fuel, our economy doesn't exist and people starve, and with a worldwide collapse, the possibility of not having fuel is very real.

It's really not that big of a leap, IMO.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

Electricity could very well be shut off if I can't afford to pay the bill.

But my focus really is on the kind of stuff you mentioned which is why I added some extra thread and bought new needles for mending clothing. It's why I am trying to learn more simple, tasty and nutritious recipes so I can keep my family healthy on less if I need to. It's why I can and am learning more about it. It's part of why I garden and am trying to learn about root cellaring and seed saving. Simple household skills that would help us survive a depression like setting. I don't think learning about local edible foods is all that odd. I don't expect to need to survive off them but it's just one more resource I have if I need it.

My neighbors know I garden and can but I doubt they know I have a somewhat large food storage because it's never come up in conversation. Most of my friends and family are aware though and have their own supplies. i worry about the family in the little rental on the corner expecting their fourth. I don't think they have much room for storage there. I have plans to share with them if they need it.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
When I think worst-case scenario, I think WORST-CASE SCENARIO. I wouldn't say the discussion is silly, either. The fact is that without fuel, our economy doesn't exist and people starve, and with a worldwide collapse, the possibility of not having fuel is very real.

It's really not that big of a leap, IMO.

What do you think could happen that would lead to a worst-case scenario? Would this take place suddenly, or over a longer period of time? I just wonder how having two large boxes of instant oatmeal would legitimately stave off the possibility of starvation in such an event.

If you're talking about homesteading, that's a different issue - stockpiling is a short-term solution; homesteading, if done correctly, is a long-term solution. Right?


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I don't but I have a gc for Barnes and Noble and I am trying to decide what to use it on. I've been looking into books that teach basic skills that I don't know how to do. Things my great grandma would have done during the Great Depression to care for her family. I hope not to need a lot of it but I have no way of knowing how bad things are really going to get. I'm planning a trip over to the biggest city in the area on Saturday for a few other reasons so I'll see if B&N has a copy I can look at.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

Urban Homesteading is my goal.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

So is anyone else planning a fall or winter garden?

We have a plot in a community garden, and I would like to use it year 'round. We are in the Pac NW so I think that there are some things (like greens) that we can grow throughout the fall and maybe winter too?

Our garden saved us so much $$ this summer







:


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Susun Weed's herbal books are a good way to learn how to make medicine from simple weeds found easily around you.

As an example, in the southeast we have yellowroot in crazy abundance. It works just as well as goldenseal (which btw is bordering on endangered). Better to use the weed in your area than get an expensive endangered medcinal from across the sea.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
I don't but I have a gc for Barnes and Noble and I am trying to decide what to use it on. I've been looking into books that teach basic skills that I don't know how to do. Things my great grandma would have done during the Great Depression to care for her family. I hope not to need a lot of it but I have no way of knowing how bad things are really going to get. I'm planning a trip over to the biggest city in the area on Saturday for a few other reasons so I'll see if B&N has a copy I can look at.

You might also be able to request it through interlibrary loan from your local public library. I learned a lot about how to fix things, how to make certain convenience foods from scratch - I can knit and crochet and hand-sew, and I make my own cleaning supplies, etc. We now live in an apartment, and don't have room for food storage really, but I would like to, at the very least, get some canned food saved up. My concern with stockpiling flour, etc is that it could be prone to insect infestation.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I am planning to put in garlic, onions and carrots and dig up some more garden space for spring.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancebaraka* 
Susun Weed's herbal books are a good way to learn how to make medicine from simple weeds found easily around you.

As an example, in the southeast we have yellowroot in crazy abundance. It works just as well as goldenseal (which btw is bordering on endangered). Better to use the weed in your area than get an expensive endangered medcinal from across the sea.

Ever used dandelion? I've heard it is delicious cooked. There was an article a few months ago in Mother Earth News about dandelion recipes.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

Looks like my library has a copy, I'll have them put it on hold for me.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I have lot's of dandelions mixed into my yard and I've heard they taste great on early spring before the flowers bloom but I haven't tried them yet. PLantain is a very common weed and quite useful, my mom introduced it to me when I was really young for bee stings. It's a good time right now to harvest it and make some oil. http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezin...ealingwise.htm


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

My kids slept in today but they've been up for a little while now so I need to go feed us and get some stuff done around here. I'll check back in later.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Just wanted to chime in and say Hello again! I totally missed where the last thread went down since I wasn't online in the evenings. But for the posters who are asking about how this is related to Current Events and why are we concerned about looting, defending ourselves, etc.-Please visit this blog http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-to-expect.html

It's from this guy named FerFal who lives in Argentina. He lived there when the economic system collapsed in 2001 and describes (w/videos too if you care to watch) what happened and how it happened and what it was like to live in a developed country when TSHTF. He is widely respected in the blogger community. Of course, no one is saying that what happened there will definitely happen here or that it would even be the same way. HOWEVER, we think it is prudent to learn about how it MIGHT be and prepare for the worst. We are survivalists on this thread and are interested in learning how to SURVIVE in all conditions.

There is a very real possibility of things going bad, maybe not Argentina bad, but close.

Maybe a better solution to this would be to make a Finding your Tribe thread called Survivalists? I dunno... just a thought! Glad to see we are back!

PS/ Another look at Peak Oil/downturn of economy
http://www.postoilliving.com/Archive...OnABudget.html

What an Economic Collapse looks like
http://www.peakoilandhumanity.com/Fu...looks_like.htm


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## Ianthe (Dec 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancebaraka* 
I must agree with the concerns posisted re: our thread focus. I want to participate in this discussion, but for me, preparing for a possible future depression doesn't really = TSHTF. After researching more about what happened in Argentina, I feel that we are probably better being in the infastructure than way out in the country. I'd like to consider some food storage, but also other things. Not just stockpiling food.

I agree with you









Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 

*So is anyone making any major shopping trips this weekend?
We are going to Grocery outlet, Cash and Carry and possibly Costco.

You guys watching the stock market????? I can't believe what is happening!!*

We don't have the money this week for Costco shopping. Next check...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
DH and I have been talking about getting one of the radios like you ordered off Amazon...did you get it yet??

I haven't gotten it yet.. but I can't wait until I do! I'll let you all know what I think of it when it arrives!


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

Ok, so laundry going and kids fed...

I have always wanted one of those hand crank light/radio set ups for power outages. I have other things I need to spend my money on right now but I'll wait and see what you think of the one you bought.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

:


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I think we should start a thread about this is mindful home management and leave N&CE to be the debate forum that it is. Then anyone who wants to debate the merits of stockpiling vs. stocking up vs. homesteading is welcome too.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

We have a Flashlight/radio combo from LL Bean (this one-http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/sto...rom=SR&feat=sr

and we like it so far. You have to crank for like 60 seconds though. It also has a siren on it!


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm intrigued, as someone who took a lot of social psych but didn't specialize in it, to think of the effects it might have on an individual vis a vis her community if she's thinking the world is on the decline and she's prepared, her neighbors aren't, and she's prepared to at the least ward them off and in the worst case maybe even shoot them to protect her stash of flour, beans, and Culligan water.

I don't know about anyone else, but the people above me have a 18 month old, and the people below me have a 2 year old. I can't imagine looking at them and thinking they're walking ghosts because they weren't as paranoid as I was. Like "tough crap, kiddo, too bad your parents didn't read peakoilpanicshoppinglist.net!"


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh on Charlie too -- one of the reasons I don't think it is crazy to be prepared to protect yourself is that we saw people fighting over bags of ice down here -- like seriously coming to blows and threats of lives over... ICE. --- and that disaster only lasted for a couple of weeks for most people (until most power was restored and supplies were able to get in).


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

I think most people here will be willing to share if needed. But not like I'm going to give you my last gallon of milk or anything. I think that most of us realize that having a community or small village on your side gives you much more of an advantage in any situation like we are talking about. That's part of the reason we are here talking about it, if we really wanted to hoard and be paranoid than we would just not say anything and go quietly about our ways. We want to help people understand that we are living in tumultuous times.


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## claras_mom (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
On topic, I want a hand crank radio dealie too. When we were out of power for nearly 2 weeks during Charlie of '04, that would have been so useful -- for cell phone charging too.

I don't see the bailout leading to widespread shortages and the end of life as we know it. Planning carefully for the possibility of job loss/layoff, yes; total collapse, not so much. But that's just my opinion. Makes a lot more sense to me to worry about natural disasters common to one's area and be prepared for that. Having a good plan for hurricanes and tornados saves a lot of grief when they actually happen. Around here, it's wildfires and (rarely) earthquakes and the odd really major mudslide.

That last was driven home to me this summer, with a wildfire practically in our backyard.


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 

One question for all sceptics; is the fact that people are nervous about the future upsetting you? Is it a threat to you somehow? Is it shaking your idea that the world can and will be secure no matter what? Does it help relieve that stress by insulting people who are nervous?

Actually, while I don't entertain any personal endtimes scenarios, I'm probably more of a pessmist than any of you. I expect, if there really is anarchy, social collapse, and famine, I will probably die and so will my children. I expect this because having studied history, I know that we--a woman and two very young children who live below the poverty line--are among those who are almost always first to go in such a situation. We do not have the power, strength, or resources to defend ourselves against the gangs of men that would run rampant in such a situation.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
Mamawindmill, did you ever hear the phrase 'prepare for the worst but hope for the best'.

That's not what people are doing in this thread, as MW pointed out. Ya'll are talking about preparing for a famine, and very little else.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

I think that maybe some skeptics might also consider reading Chris Martenson (he has the Crash Course). He explains in very simple terms, how peak oil combined with national debt, rampant unregulation of the banking industry, global climate change, all culminated in an era that means-well we don't know what it means-We can only suspect that it might be as bad as Argentina. Read the website I posted upstream. These are first hand examples of what it's like living in a Developed world in an economic collapse. It is not beyond the realm of possibility. There is nothing written in stone that the U.S. will remain the wealthiest nation on Earth for all of eternity. Our govt has made major mistakes in recent years and they are coming to a head right now. Check out CNN. It's on the news, people. This is the beginning. It's not the end of the world but there is reason to be a tad nervous. We combat nervousness and anxiety by being prepared.
The DOW hit 9000 this week, the scary part is that it also hit 10000 this week. Happening pretty fast IMO. I know alot of the stock stuff is investor panic but it's not reassuring to the rest of us for sure.

Kunstler's Book-The Long Emergency is a pretty good read too.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

As for the question about hand-crank flashlight/radios, you can find them for cheaper than at LL Bean. I have a couple, one of which also has a cell phone charger, that were purchased on clearance at Target a few years ago. They all have LED bulbs and are all still in good condition after being used for numerous camping trips. If you look at the Target website you'll see that there are several models for sale for $20 and under.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I am not talking about preparing for a famine, I am talking about giving my family a cushion against hard economic times.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama* 
That's not what people are doing in this thread, as MW pointed out. Ya'll are talking about preparing for a famine, and very little else.

Hmmm... for some reason, I thought people were talking about preparing for possible food/money shortages... not exactly famine, which would leave all of us gardeners out anyway... aren't most famines weather related?

And I really do want to say something (again) about "foraging." It may be hard to understand, if you've never lived in the country, or never been poor, or, or, or... but there are MANY people who "forage" for food. Whether it is hunting, wild-berry picking, or eating weeds. I'm honestly getting a few good laughs over here because I'll have the joy of eating fresh, wild paw-paws next weekend, and some are scoffing at the idea, thinking I'm some kind of nutter. What in the world is wrong with eating wild? What is wrong with herbal medicine? What is wrong with wanting to increase knowledge? What is wrong with wanting to prepare for economic or natural emergencies?

I really don't get it. As someone who grew up poor, yeah, food and shelter are my main priorities. You should try doing without them sometime, then look at your kids and say "well, babe, we'll be the first to go."


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## OhMeOhMy (Apr 2, 2004)

Can anyone name a book that would be good to purchase re:
1. easy simple meals (a previous post mentioned simpler, tastier meals to stretch)
2. what to stock and how to store it
3. thrifty things to do to save/stretch money
4. not sure how to put this, but a "how to get through meager times" type book. maybe a btdt from the 30's?

I have some links, but I would like to have some books in hand to refer to. Because if TSHT for real, chances are internet will be the first cut back me make.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm all for foraging! I wish I had nut trees in my yard but there are lots of walnut and pecan trees around here and I am not above getting me some!

There's not much I can gather in my immediate area, but I do know how to catch, clean,and cook a fish.

I think alot of us will have to think about urban survival and what that means (I do).
It means having a small stockpile of food the keep you going to till it's safe to go out (worst case scenario here). It means protection for your family against anyone who may wish to take what you have. It means access to clean potable water and first aid/medications.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhMeOhMy* 
Can anyone name a book that would be good to purchase re:
1. easy simple meals (a previous post mentioned simpler, tastier meals to stretch)
2. what to stock and how to store it
3. thrifty things to do to save/stretch money
4. not sure how to put this, but a "how to get through meager times" type book. maybe a btdt from the 30's?

I have some links, but I would like to have some books in hand to refer to. Because if TSHT for real, chances are internet will be the first cut back me make.

The Complete Tightwad Gazette really is an amazing resource. I have another called "Miserly Moms," but that's mostly just good for the recipes. TG will give you a wealth of info - my problem with 30s-era books is that they sometimes don't include info like temperature settings, or use terms that I have to look up!


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhMeOhMy* 
Can anyone name a book that would be good to purchase re:
1. easy simple meals (a previous post mentioned simpler, tastier meals to stretch)
2. what to stock and how to store it
3. thrifty things to do to save/stretch money
4. not sure how to put this, but a "how to get through meager times" type book. maybe a btdt from the 30's?

My local public library has lots of books on these topics. Especially books on how to stretch your dollar. Just check the homemaking/cooking/food storage section... could just be because I live in a fairly low-income area that our library has so many books on the subject, though.
And I love going to the library for free entertainment, and to look for books I would actually like to invest in


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

Oh my mother grew up shooting squirrels for food--in rural Washington, 60 years ago. Discharging firearms for any purpose in a city setting is quite a different idea.

It's not that I have some elitist idea that foraging for food is undignified or something, it's that it's a kind of far out and ridiculous option for a large bulk of the population, and imagining a scenario in which one really would be walking around downtown Seattle, or Minneapolis, or San Diego shooting squirrels for meat is kind of...out there.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
And I really do want to say something (again) about "foraging." It may be hard to understand, if you've never lived in the country, or never been poor, or, or, or... but there are MANY people who "forage" for food. Whether it is hunting, wild-berry picking, or eating weeds. I'm honestly getting a few good laughs over here because I'll have the joy of eating fresh, wild paw-paws next weekend, and some are scoffing at the idea, thinking I'm some kind of nutter. What in the world is wrong with eating wild? What is wrong with herbal medicine? What is wrong with wanting to increase knowledge? What is wrong with wanting to prepare for economic or natural emergencies?

I really don't get it. As someone who grew up poor, yeah, food and shelter are my main priorities. You should try doing without them sometime, then look at your kids and say "well, babe, we'll be the first to go."











I don't get it either.

You know, my mother in law was years before her time relating to gardening organically, preserving seeds, theorizing and predicting the food monopoly of chemical companies owning most of the world's food supply -- etc ... I know there were people in her day who thought she was absolutely *mad* -- now, it is actually *illegal* to have certain seeds in your possession because they are patented by chemical companies and so on.

Also, re: guns. They don't scare me (I mean that someone owns them). I am not going to run screaming in the opposite direction because someone says they keep firearms. My husband grew up with weapons - guns, bows and arrows, knives etc and their family hasn't shot any neighbors yet







They aren't paranoid in the least. They just use their second amendment right accordingly. I find it extremely scary







: to believe that the government should be the only ones *allowed* weapons.

You know one of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was enact strong gun control laws. I mean, he was smart in that way -- when you plan on screwing a whole lot of people over, you really want to render the masses unarmed -- control their food supply, control their money, and then tell them everything is cool and nothing is going to happen.

I am not suggesting that we are in another wwII situation (yet! We sure don't have a lot of friends left around the world that's for sure) -- but I will say with assuredness that the economy is in trouble. I think anyone who is arguing that at this point is off their gourds.

What the fall out from that will be, no one knows *for sure* -- but I am certainly not putting my bets on everyone being *prosperous* for the next couple years.


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## StacyL (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
What do you think could happen that would lead to a worst-case scenario? Would this take place suddenly, or over a longer period of time? I just wonder how having two large boxes of instant oatmeal would legitimately stave off the possibility of starvation in such an event.

With all due respect, I think you underestimate how quickly things can turn on a dime, and how that would directly impact your daily existence.

And I am not even talking about WORST CASE SCENARIO.

It's really simple:

If the banking system is put on a "holiday" to slow the panic, if you do not happen to have gas in your car, and some stored in your shed, groceries in your house and stored, and cash on hand IN YOUR HOME you will not be able to:

-get to work if you still have a job

-go to the grocery store to buy food

-won't be able to buy said groceries or gas if you have no cash. All transactions will be cash only.

-won't be able to pay your bills (no cash, and no access to your money)

Then what happens next is the supply chain for EVERYTHING begins to break down, leading to shortages of food and gas, which will thereby drive up the prices of what's available assuming you can even find some!

You should read this:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

Quote:

Raise cash now and be prepared for potential essential good and service disruptions as the supply pipelines could begin to go dry on these as soon as early next week.

We are facing a global DEPRESSION and the cut-off of essential goods and services in this nation if we do not stop this lunacy immediately.

Please understand - the TRUCKER who has a full load of food headed for your grocer REQUIRES commercial credit in order to fill his truck with diesel.

The local GAS STATION owner REQUIRES commercial credit to fill his underground storage tank.

The local CAR DEALER REQUIRES commercial credit to have cars - and parts - in his dealership. No credit, no car - and no car repairs.

The manufacturer over in China REQUIRES commercial credit (letters of credit from the buyer's bank) to be able to ship those goods to America, where you can buy them. If the bank over there won't take the LOC from the bank over here, suddenly you have no tires, DVDs and other similar products to buy.

IF THESE MARKETS DO NOT IMMEDIATELY UNFREEZE THE CONSEQUENCE WILL BE THAT FOOD AND FUEL, ALONG WITH ALL OTHER MANNER OF CONSUMER PRODUCTS, MAY NOT FLOW TO YOUR GROCERY STORE AND GAS STATION.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
Oh my mother grew up shooting squirrels for food--in rural Washington, 60 years ago. Discharging firearms for any purpose in a city setting is quite a different idea.

It's not that I have some elitist idea that foraging for food is undignified or something, it's that it's a kind of far out and ridiculous option for a large bulk of the population, and imagining a scenario in which one really would be walking around downtown Seattle, or Minneapolis, or San Diego shooting squirrels for meat is kind of...out there.

That's why urban survival is different from rural survival. In an urban setting it's more important to have a stock of supplies, protection, basic medical care, clean water. Since it's not practical to go shootin' squirrels in downtown Philly, it's safer to have 10lbs of dried beans and rice. Being vegetarian is going to be safer anyways since the quality of meat may be questionable from your grocer (if you can get any). Plus its cheaper and can be stored without electricity.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 
With all due respect, I think you underestimate how quickly things can turn on a dime, and how that would directly impact your daily existence.

And I am not even talking about WORST CASE SCENARIO.

It's really simple:

If the banking system is put on a "holiday" to slow the panic, if you do not happen to have gas in your car, and some stored in your shed, groceries in your house and stored, and cash on hand IN YOUR HOME you will not be able to:

-get to work if you still have a job

-go to the grocery store to buy food

-won't be able to buy said groceries or gas if you have no cash. All transactions will be cash only.

-won't be able to pay your bills (no cash, and no access to your money)

Then what happens next is the supply chain for EVERYTHING begins to break down, leading to shortages of food and gas, which will thereby drive up the prices of what's available assuming you can even find some!

You should read this:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

Yeah just like Argentina. Hey I'm reading the same thing! Kinda scary when he says IMMINENT!!!!! I have to tell hubby to fill up on gas on his way home from work. I do believe it's coming fast too.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
Oh my mother grew up shooting squirrels for food--in rural Washington, 60 years ago. Discharging firearms for any purpose in a city setting is quite a different idea.

It's not that I have some elitist idea that foraging for food is undignified or something, it's that it's a kind of far out and ridiculous option for a large bulk of the population, and imagining a scenario in which one really would be walking around downtown Seattle, or Minneapolis, or San Diego shooting squirrels for meat is kind of...out there.

I know people in my town (hey, we have a large university, mall, and all that, not a major metro area, but not podunk, either) that set squirrel traps! You don't have to shoot it to eat it







It's nice to know that option is there because the price of meat recently has me







: I've tried to be vegetarian and it is very, very bad for me physically (I have a chronic immune disorder).

All the more reason for those in major metro areas to make sure they have emergency kits, including food and water, for every member of the family. I believe my state recommends a 14 day supply for each person because we live in an earthquake zone.







:


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Well I'm a daycare provider. If my daycare parents loose their jobs our income will be cut in half. DH is in law enforcement with 12 years seniority, so his job is probably safe. Recently I went 3 months without pay because California didn't have a state budget and most of my daycare kids are state subsidized. I don't know if there will be a food shortage. I'm more worried about the unemployment rate. If I hadn't always been a stockpiler my family would have starved and I would have had to shut my daycare down....making my financial situation even worse that it allready was. Being able to keep my daycare open, I did eventually start getting paid again once the budget was signed. I even got back pay for the time there wasn't a budget. Those 85 or so days without a state budget caused many daycares in my community to go out of business. I certainly was an economic crisis for those families involved (providers and daycare parents).

If your clients are state subsidized, wouldn't they still continue to receive subsidies while looking for work?


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

This is a book I've been considering.http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Cou...9123680/?itm=1


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Ever used dandelion? I've heard it is delicious cooked. There was an article a few months ago in Mother Earth News about dandelion recipes.

Yup! We eat dandelion fresh here, mixed in with salads. It's sooo good for you, abundant and free, and tastes good too. Chickweed too!









And also someone noted earlier about pine needle tea. This is another thing we commonly do here in the South. It has excellent absorbable vitamin C.
I think a great skill in hard times (and even not) is to be able to walk around outside and tell what plant life is around you and their purposes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
Ok, so laundry going and kids fed...

I have always wanted one of those hand crank light/radio set ups for power outages. I have other things I need to spend my money on right now but I'll wait and see what you think of the one you bought.

This is on our stock up list too. My Papa and MIL have one and they are just a great thing to have.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
Hmmm... for some reason, I thought people were talking about preparing for possible food/money shortages... not exactly famine, which would leave all of us gardeners out anyway... aren't most famines weather related?

And I really do want to say something (again) about "foraging." It may be hard to understand, if you've never lived in the country, or never been poor, or, or, or... but there are MANY people who "forage" for food. Whether it is hunting, wild-berry picking, or eating weeds. I'm honestly getting a few good laughs over here because I'll have the joy of eating fresh, wild paw-paws next weekend, and some are scoffing at the idea, thinking I'm some kind of nutter. What in the world is wrong with eating wild? What is wrong with herbal medicine? What is wrong with wanting to increase knowledge? What is wrong with wanting to prepare for economic or natural emergencies?

I really don't get it. As someone who grew up poor, yeah, food and shelter are my main priorities. You should try doing without them sometime, then look at your kids and say "well, babe, we'll be the first to go."

ITA about foraging. Reading these threads, I am sorta glad in a way that I come from GA and understand some things about the land. Thank goodness really! People around here already hunt and garden and gather and have chickens and goats, etc. My neighbor used to eat squirrel due to poverty. I am already connected in a network of folks to make things, etc. We already trade and I know in hard times this will continue.

As some of ya'll know, we are actually in the process of downsizing and moving OFF the land and into the city. We will have gardening space available to us if need be and are close with lots of farmers, so I know if I needed a plot, I could easily trade my labor for it and heirloom seed. But it is feeling important to me right now to cut my bills in 1/3 by living in a small space. It is also feeling important to be on the bus line, and within walking distance to family, friends, the library, gov't buildings, etc. Anyone else out there feeling this, or am I alone on this one?


----------



## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 
With all due respect, I think you underestimate how quickly things can turn on a dime, and how that would directly impact your daily existence.

And I am not even talking about WORST CASE SCENARIO.

It's really simple:

If the banking system is put on a "holiday" to slow the panic, if you do not happen to have gas in your car, and some stored in your shed, groceries in your house and stored, and cash on hand IN YOUR HOME you will not be able to:

-get to work if you still have a job

-go to the grocery store to buy food

-won't be able to buy said groceries or gas if you have no cash. All transactions will be cash only.

-won't be able to pay your bills (no cash, and no access to your money)

Then what happens next is the supply chain for EVERYTHING begins to break down, leading to shortages of food and gas, which will thereby drive up the prices of what's available assuming you can even find some!

You should read this:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

Hmm, maybe - although in my personal case, I am already living like this in most respects; I can't afford gas, and can't buy a whole lot of food, so I take the bus or walk to work/school, and know how to make a little food stretch a long way. Who is the person who writes the blog you linked?


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
One question for all sceptics; is the fact that people are nervous about the future upsetting you? Is it a threat to you somehow? Is it shaking your idea that the world can and will be secure no matter what? Does it help relieve that stress by insulting people who are nervous?

I personally would rather have half the town (or all of it) stocking up on extras now in case something really bad did happen then do nothing hoping that nothing will happen. Even if they didn't share anything at least the population would feel that much more secure and that security would prevent many problems that could otherwise occur.

Nope, stockpiling is not worrying me. But, I am nervous about what happens when more and more people panic. What happens then? I'm not worried so much about the economy... it's tough times but it will straiten out. I'm nervous about human behavior.

Now, I have a question to everyone stocking up, and not just in case you lose a drastic amount of income. I can totally understand that kind of stocking up. I find it to be relatively normal. I myself tend to keep a bit of extra pasta, sauce, tp and paper towels on hand just in case we have something unexpected come up and are a bit short on grocery money.

My question- to those that aren't just stocking up a bit here and there in case of job loss- is what do you feel is going to happen? Another depression? Do you think that will be worse than the great depression? And if so, if you lose your home what good will your stock pile do then?

I'm not trying to offend anyone- just honestly curious.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

In our case we have family that own their home and land outright and are nearby so we would end up living together and sharing our resources.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancebaraka* 
It is also feeling important to be on the bus line, and within walking distance to family, friends, the library, gov't buildings, etc. Anyone else out there feeling this, or am I alone on this one?

We feel this way and recently moved within walking distance to many things. Also, my husband got a job a year ago with the county government. We live in one of the most heavily funded counties in the nation and the whole entire government would have to collapse (which I am not expecting at all) or dh would have to show up drunk (which is even more unlikely







) for him to lose his job -- even though the money was a paycut, it is extremely secure. That is why I have the luxury of not feeling the need to stockpile for months upon months -- mostly just weeks (until the next paycheck, because they will find a way to pay dh's department since it is such a *needed* department).

I also believe bartering will have a future -- maybe not in mainstream but definitely black market -- I saw the footage of people throwing paper money into their fires during wwII (in Germany mostly) because it seriously was.not.worth. anything more than kindling because Hitler kept printing it to keep funding his efforts (among other things). We aren't exactly printing more money as we are selling off parts of our country to places like China in the form of treasury bonds that we should all be praying don't get cashed in anytime soon.

When your national debt calculator near Times Square runs out of spaces for digits and you have to remove the dollar sign to make room... that is not only scary to me, but telling.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancebaraka* 
As some of ya'll know, we are actually in the process of downsizing and moving OFF the land and into the city. We will have gardening space available to us if need be and are close with lots of farmers, so I know if I needed a plot, I could easily trade my labor for it and heirloom seed. But it is feeling important to me right now to cut my bills in 1/3 by living in a small space. It is also feeling important to be on the bus line, and within walking distance to family, friends, the library, gov't buildings, etc. Anyone else out there feeling this, or am I alone on this one?

I can completely understand this. I moved from the suburbs (where I had lived my whole life) to the country a year and a half ago, in an attempt to live a more self sufficient life. Rural living, the way most people including myself do it, is much more dependent on oil (gasoline) than living in the city or suburbs. We can't walk anywhere, we have to drive long distances for shopping, entertainment, education and employment. I love where we live, but I do understand the appeal of living in town.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Ok-
Karl Denninger http://www.denninger.net/ is a Former CEO of MCSNet in Chicago, now trading the capital markets for a living
http://www.youtube.com/user/kdenninger

To grniys
I am stocking up not because I am afraid of losing my house or of my husband losing his job. But in case of our market and economy shutting down, there will at least be a slowdown and at most-complete halting of delivery of goods-namely food and fuel-to local stores. I want to have some food to be able to hold us over till things settle down.


----------



## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

These are good general food storage tips that everyone should follow. http://www.trackmyfoodstorage.com/ar...eid=4&zoneid=1


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 

My question- to those that aren't just stocking up a bit here and there in case of job loss- is what do you feel is going to happen? Another depression? Do you think that will be worse than the great depression? And if so, if you lose your home what good will your stock pile do then?

I'm not trying to offend anyone- just honestly curious.

I do think there will be another great depression. No idea if it will be worse than the previous depression. As for losing my house, if that happens I will take my stockpiled items with me. If we can't afford another home of our own, we'd probably move in with relatives. All of my older relatives have large homes that are paid off.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I've always wanted to live in the country but I think I have a good set up now. A good sized lot in a small town with room for a garden and storage and within walking distance to needed things. I live in a good tight knit community and I think that support, good friends and a good community are invaluable.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

As of right now --

Dow 7,981.99*-597.20* -6.96%
Nasdaq 1,543.16-101.96 -6.20%
S&P 842.94-66.98 -7.36%
Nikkei 225 (Tokyo) 8,276.43*-881.06* -9.62%
FTSE 100 (London) 3,932.06 *-381.74* -8.85%
DAX (Frankfurt) 4,544.31-*342.69* -7.01%
TSX (Toronto) 9,002.26 *-597.92* -6.23%

So, it is important to remember this is a *worldwide* problem, not just local, In the global economy, everything is linked together --

This thread is about "bail-out" what are you stocking up on ---- which I think is an important point: the bail-out was meant to restore investors' faith -- that was part of the whole point. Sure, we all realize the actual 700+ billions would physically take a while to be dispersed, "trickled down", to help stabilize -- but the actual bail-out was supposed to restore faith IMMEDIATELY so that *this* wouldn't be happening.

Guess it didn't work eh.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm on the Zero Pollution Motors email list and just got an update from them a few minutes ago. If you're not familiar, this is a company that is trying to mass produce a vehicle that runs on compressed air. According to the email the cars won't be in production until 2010. But if I had the money, this is something I might consider stocking up on








http://zeropollutionmotors.us/


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
I live in a good tight knit community and I think that support, good friends and a good community are invaluable.

This is what I am most thankful for these days.


----------



## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annethcz* 
I'm on the Zero Pollution Motors email list and just got an update from them a few minutes ago. If you're not familiar, this is a company that is trying to mass produce a vehicle that runs on compressed air. According to the email the cars won't be in production until 2010. But if I had the money, this is something I might consider stocking up on








http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

very cool.
we run our car on biodesiel and might be forming a coop here to start making our own. We are also considering selling our truck and getting a little moped instead


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## StacyL (May 4, 2004)

Here's an article about Safeway grocery store possibly failing, along with several other at-risk companies:

http://money.aol.com/investing/compa...540x1200630933


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

I hear people talking about electricity and clean water not being available...and about their stash of rice. No clean water, I guess we're making rice over a campfire (where? oh I guess in order to survive you need your own yard) with cholera water, nice.

It's this kind of juxtaposition that worries me, actually. It says to me that people are not being rational.


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## Chi-Chi Mama (Mar 13, 2002)

Sorry this is sort of OT.. but I've been thinking about stockpiling, saving cash, etc. How do you balance that $-wise with other, non-essential things - I"m thinking about dd's dance class, her piano lessons, etc. I know we're doing pretty well to be able to afford those extras, but we've cut other things to be able to afford it. We have food to eat and to buy extra to set aside, but now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and pay $200 for dd's next session of piano lessons this coming Monday or use that to do more food stockpiling. It's such a fine line and I keep going back and forth....


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
I hear people talking about electricity and clean water not being available...and about their stash of rice. No clean water, I guess we're making rice over a campfire (where? oh I guess in order to survive you need your own yard) with cholera water, nice.

It's this kind of juxtaposition that worries me, actually. It says to me that people are not being rational.

You can use a camp stove or perhaps a solar oven on your apartment balcony. Assuming that you have a good place to put one, a solar oven is the smarter investment because it doesn't require any fuel (beyond the sun) to work. ETA: you can find instructions on how to make a solar oven on the internet for $10-20.

As for water, you can invest in a water purifier. At the very least, a gallon of bleach would disinfect a LOT of rain- or pondwater, adding a few drops of bleach for each gallon of water. If you do have the means to boil the water, it will kill bacteria in the water, although it won't remove polutants.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annethcz* 
You can use a camp stove or perhaps a solar oven on your apartment balcony. Assuming that you have a good place to put one, a solar oven is the smarter investment because it doesn't require any fuel (beyond the sun) to work.

As for water, you can invest in a water purifier. At the very least, a gallon of bleach would disinfect a LOT of rain- or pondwater, adding a few drops of bleach for each gallon of water. If you do have the means to boil the water, it will kill bacteria in the water, although it won't remove polutants.

Speaking of which, I don't normally use bleach in the home but I might get a gallon for water purification, emergency use.

You can build a fire in your fireplace(!) if you have one, or even in a tall pot and rig up some kind of system to boil water if you don't have a place to make a traditional fire (i.e. outside, camp stove, solar oven, etc.)

But also, people who are stockpiling rice are are also stockpiling water or at least ways to purify collected water.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Folks with fireplaces should probably have them inspected before use if they don't use them presently.


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chi-Chi Mama* 
Sorry this is sort of OT.. but I've been thinking about stockpiling, saving cash, etc. How do you balance that $-wise with other, non-essential things - I"m thinking about dd's dance class, her piano lessons, etc. I know we're doing pretty well to be able to afford those extras, but we've cut other things to be able to afford it. We have food to eat and to buy extra to set aside, but now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and pay $200 for dd's next session of piano lessons this coming Monday or use that to do more food stockpiling. It's such a fine line and I keep going back and forth....

I have been thinking of this too, as we have been remodeling an apt flat and purchasing things that are most certainly not necessary. I figure, enjoy spending the $$ on what I want in the here and now, *and* consider the future at the same time. I think your dd should enjoy her lessons while she has them. You are assisting her teacher in earning a living, and your dd's ed and experience may well last her a lifetime.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

So what about the people who can't store food, either because of the expense or lack of space, or can't afford expensive survival gear/equipment? What will happen to those people? What if those people are your friends and neighbors?


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

For me, I think that it might take a few days at least for public water to get cut off (I have city water) so as I was watching events unfold, I would fill my 2 (may get one more) 5-gal tanks w/water to use in addition to my other stockpiled water supplies. Plus I would fill my gigantic garden tub w/water. If you are on a well you should be good (if you have a way to get it out without electricity-manual pumps etc). My meager water supplies won't last long though, so I don't know, I would have to leave and go somewhere where there is a well w/manual pump I guess. Maybe a friends house, relatives? I couldn't rely on rain catchment either since the South is constantly in a drought. I would hope that the 'grid' would come back up by then and if not well then we are all in for it.

BTW I read somewhere how to build a solar oven for nearly free. Don't remember where though...you might want to google it if your concerned how you would need to boil water.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

We are living paycheck to paycheck with *very few to no* extras, as a big part of our income was just slashed (in part to the economy). I don't buy like 15 bazillion cans of whatever or toys for years or whatever. I don't know where that is coming from. Everyone is at different places in their lives -- I am blessed I *can* afford to purchase an extra can here or there --of things I will use anyway -- or buy an extra when coffee is BOGO free (so I am getting four for the price of two). I buy things I *already use* (very important!!) when prices are way low, or I have mad coupons, or whatever -- I realize some people don't even have the means to do that.

If the SHTF the way some people are talking -- toys are sort of the least of my concern -- I can always make paper airplanes out of dollar bills









Children of all people have always found ways to entertain themselves in creative and awesome ways without me stockpiling Haba, so I agree on that -- but I didn't see a lot of that except for homeschooling books gotten on the cheap which I think can be smart if you didn't have the gas to get to a library or money to buy the books in the near future etc.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
So what about the people who can't store food, either because of the expense or lack of space, or can't afford expensive survival gear/equipment? What will happen to those people? What if those people are your friends and neighbors?

I am big on community.... *big* and I believe in helping out and sharing the wealth -- I have said many posts and threads ago that I believe the biggest thing to "stockpile" is community. However, if someone is breaking into my house to steal - yeah, I won't be sharing with them. Of course if a neighbor came to me saying they or their child was hungry and did we have *anything* to spare, ... if we did, I would. If we didn't, well -- yes, I would feed my child over someone else's (if it came down to it). If that makes me a bad person, so be it.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
So what about the people who can't store food, either because of the expense or lack of space, or can't afford expensive survival gear/equipment? What will happen to those people? What if those people are your friends and neighbors?

Ok last post for a while, dd is waking up but....

I would help friends/neighbors as much as I could without putting my family in jeopardy. Ideally they would be preparing too







I try to drop hints to fam/friends to keep some cash on hand, water supplies (one gal per person per day), food, can opener, fire extinguisher, you know-BASIC emergency supplies.

It doesn't cost that much to have a few meager food supplies on hand. A bag of dried beans is about a buck, 20lbs of rice is $15-20. Fill up water tanks for free. Just a little ingenuity and preparedness will go a long way in the event they are needed.

Talk to ya'll later....play nice now!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.

Are you feeling attacked for not stocking up?

I didn't see where anyone suggested that _YOU_ should have a water purifier etc...just that some of us _DO_ have them and that is how we plan to cook rice or have drinking water.

I also don't understand why so many people on this thread think that people wouldn't share with their neighbors.
I feel like that is an unfair assumption. I don't recall reading ANY posts that say people wouldn't share or that people plan to shoot hungry neighbors.
I think that when people mention the thought of having to use firearms they are talking about self defense from people who are being violent. Not shooting the kids next door because they ask for some rice.

One of my biggest concerns is that most people are not prepared. Whether it be through choice or circumstances. That is the main reason that I would like to have as much food on hand as possible (withing reason of course!!)

If there was a banking holiday, even for a week, there are many people who don't have enough food to get by. I would be ready and willing to share what we have. I am all about community and when I am stocking up on large amounts of things I am PLANNING on sharing with those around me. We have 10 cases of vitamin water in our basement (that we got FREE) and I certainly wouldn't plan on my family consuming all of that in a crisis. I would go and give them away to neighbors, or an agency that was distributing things to needy people. I would HATE to only have enough for MY family to get through for a couple days and feel that I couldn't afford to help others in my community. Turning away a hungry neighbor or friend would be almost as painful as not having food for my children.

When I am stocking up I thinking about the low income apartment complex across the street whose tenants wont be able to afford to stock up. But if someone showed up at my house, violently demanding supplies/food/whatever, I would be ready to defend my family. Just like if someone were to try and rob us now.

Does all of that make sense?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Are you feeling attacked for not stocking up?

I didn't see where anyone suggested that _YOU_ should have a water purifier etc...just that some of us _DO_ have them and that is how we plan to cook rice or have drinking water.

I also don't understand why so many people on this thread think that people wouldn't share with their neighbors.
I feel like that is an unfair assumption. I don't recall reading ANY posts that say people wouldn't share or that people plan to shoot hungry neighbors.
I think that when people mention the thought of having to use firearms they are talking about self defense from people who are being violent. Not shooting the kids next door because they ask for some rice.

One of my biggest concerns is that most people are not prepared. Whether it be through choice or circumstances. That is the main reason that I would like to have as much food on hand as possible (withing reason of course!!)

If there was a banking holiday, even for a week, there are many people who don't have enough food to get by. I would be ready and willing to share what we have. I am all about community and when I am stocking up on large amounts of things I am PLANNING on sharing with those around me. We have 10 cases of vitamin water in our basement (that we got FREE) and I certainly wouldn't plan on my family consuming all of that in a crisis. I would go and give them away to neighbors, or an agency that was distributing things to needy people. I would HATE to only have enough for MY family to get through for a couple days and feel that I couldn't afford to help others in my community. Turning away a hungry neighbor or friend would be almost as painful as not having food for my children.

When I am stocking up I thinking about the low income apartment complex across the street whose tenants wont be able to afford to stock up. But if someone showed up at my house, violently demanding supplies/food/whatever, I would be ready to defend my family. Just like if someone were to try and rob us now.

Does all of that make sense?









perfect sense to me.


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## StacyL (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.

It doesn't even take much for this to happen.

A few months ago here (D.C. area) we had a 48" watermain break. We (our entire county) had no water for THREE DAYS! Then we had to boil it for 5 more days after it came back. The govt. SHUT DOWN every restaurant (1,200 of them!) in Montgomery County for about 5 days.

Boy, was I lucky to have had several 5-gal. containers of water stored in my basement.

Ever wonder what happens to your sewage issue when there's no water for three days...hmmm?


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

This is very intriguing to me. I knew a guy who started stockpiling things in the late 80's, because of Black Thursday (y'all remember that??). I lost touch w/ him unfortunately, but I'd be curious to find out what has happened to his things.

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?

And when do you think the sh*t will hit the fan? I'm not being snarky, I just am a little puzzled b/c people have been saying "the end is near" for many years now, know what I mean?

I mean, take this guy I knew in the late 80's. He was CONVINCED that it was going to happen around that time, and he was wrong. And then the Y2K doomsdayers thought everything was going to collapse then.

At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 
It doesn't even take much for this to happen.

A few months ago here (D.C. area) we had a 48" watermain break. We (our entire county) had no water for THREE DAYS! Then we had to boil it for 5 more days after it came back. The govt. SHUT DOWN every restaurant (1,200 of them!) in Montgomery County for about 5 days.

Boy, was I lucky to have had several 5-gal. containers of water stored in my basement.

Ever wonder what happens to your sewage issue when there's no water for three days...hmmm?

I don't have to wonder. We had a record-shattering flood in my area this summer.

I'm asking what the current economic crisis has to do with your water service - and I'm still really asking, not being cute. How would the stock market crash cause your water to be shut off?


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.

Those are some nifty gadgets you linked to... but I would never buy them, they are overpriced gadgets.

You can do a solar cooker that will get hot enough to cook food (and boil water if the sun is strong enough that day) from a couple cardboard boxes and a roll of tinfoil (boy, that hat may come in handy after all







). We have a camp stove and some extra gas for it to use short term, after that, things other than wood can be burned... IF it is necessary. I've got a lot of college textbooks that will do me no good in a doomsday scenario, lol.
You can make cheap, simple passive solar heaters to keep from freezing inside if your heat gets shut off. Check out instructables.com

You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.

We also have an fixed income and just purchased a house, TODAY







Yep, we are doing our part to keep the economy going! We have to get out of this apartment and stop throwing our money to a crappy landlord-- so we are stocking up on house. Dh's job is pretty darned secure, unless TS _really_ HTF, and we would be able to borrow from the MIL to keep our house (heck, we could probably move in with her, but I'll be eating squirrels way before then







)

However, there are ways to make it through a Depression-- I know our grandparents did, otherwise we wouldn't be here. If you look around you, there are so many things you can do, for little to no money (and some duct-tape, don't forget to add a few rolls of THAT to your shopping list)...

I'm really slow at typing cause DD is needing me every couple of seconds, so, I'm sure I've missed a bunch of new posts, but this is why I am SO GLAD I grew up poor, going without, and had my grandparents stories of the Depression, as well as being homeless myself at one point... It's amazing what resources are available if you just THINK about it.

That's what worries me... not someone asking for help, or asking for food (cause I'll gladly share what little bit of anything I've got, or barter for it, etc)... It's the people that say, oh well, this is hopeless and demand things with violence... And yep, we are getting Dh's .22 from his dad to put away for hunting season, if we need it (dh hasn't hunted in a LONG time)... but you bet your bippy I'm not afraid to use it in case of zombie attack


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

I personally do not think we will ever have loss of H20 or electricity or whatever beyond random outages, etc. due to a more chaotic infrastructure or drought.


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## StacyL (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tumblingstar* 
I would help friends/neighbors as much as I could without putting my family in jeopardy. Ideally they would be preparing too







I try to drop hints to fam/friends to keep some cash on hand, water supplies (one gal per person per day), food, *can opener*, fire extinguisher, you know-BASIC emergency supplies.



Don't forget a can opener in your Go Bag.

I'll talk more about go bags later tonight.


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## dancebaraka (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
We also have an fixed income and just purchased a house, TODAY







Yep, we are doing our part to keep the economy going!

Congrats! That's wonderfull!!







:


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 
Don't forget a can opener in your Go Bag.

I'll talk more about go bags later tonight.

I know, I have a multi-tool in there but need to get a really good can opener. I had a really great link for go bags in the thread that got destroyed , it was mmm....going to get it....

http://www.72hours.org/go_bag.html

As for water getting shut off (city water) might not happen. But water quality might get sketchy if the city starts taking short cuts to save $$$. I want to have some stores for just in case though. We might have to roll out and then I'll take my water with me


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Something I just learned recently: you can use a solar cooker to pasteurize water. Here's a neat $6 device that indicates when the water is ready. It's available from Solar Cookers International, who also sell a lot of other neat stuff. (The profits go to further SCI's efforts around the world, a very good cause.







)

Water Pasteurization Indicator (WAPI)

Another cool thing I learned was that olive oil makes a very good lamp oil. (Well, duh... it's in the Bible, not to mention Aladdin's lamp, but somehow I never made the connection!) You can also use other vegetable oils, ghee, beef tallow, etc., though some of these will be smokier than olive oil. Lehman's sells an instruction booklet ($4) and specially designed wicks ($15-$19 for a 6 pack). For a container, you can use any jar or bowl that you have on hand. So, for under $25 and a tiny amount of storage space, you can have a backup lighting system that's safer than many other methods, aesthetically pleasing, environmentally friendly, and doesn't require purchasing and storing nasty toxic lamp oil.









Neat thing #3 is the WaterBOB -- $20 + shipping -- basically a big bag that you can put in your bathtub, holds 100 gallons of water. Of course, this assumes that you have some advance warning that there could be water supply problems (and no, I can't think of any ways that this relates to the economy, but just sharing anyway, as I think this is such a useful invention).

#4 - to collect rainwater, tie a clean tarp to some poles or trees, and slope it so that the water pours into a container.

There you have it -- four inexpensive, compact, environmentally friendly, and practical ideas, that might help increase someone's peace of mind







, and could make a huge difference in unforeseen (though by no means unprecedented) circumstances.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.

If you can't pay your bill, for one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I am big on community.... *big* and I believe in helping out and sharing the wealth -- I have said many posts and threads ago that I believe the biggest thing to "stockpile" is community. However, if someone is breaking into my house to steal - yeah, I won't be sharing with them. Of course if a neighbor came to me saying they or their child was hungry and did we have *anything* to spare, ... if we did, I would. If we didn't, well -- yes, I would feed my child over someone else's (if it came down to it). If that makes me a bad person, so be it.

Yes! When I was a kid, we had a big ice storm that knocked out power for 2 weeks. It was so cold, and we were so hungry. The local school had a generator and people could bring in food to add to the pile and get warm food and company in return. The hospital kept going (generator) and most of the churches pulled together, too. We had just moved to town and didn't know anyone, but it was amazing the way people pulled together.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?
?

medicine-- well, I've got a years supply of steroids (immune disease) sitting right now because I'm pregnant and have medicaid. I can't afford them without insurance and medicaid, can't take em while I'm pregnant... But I'll use them before they go bad! I also have bottles of prenatal vits, and they'll be used up before expiring, too. And food, well, not much of a food stockpile (not like you are thinking at least) but it gets put into rotation so it's eaten before it expires... You use it before it's bad, otherwise you are _hoarding_, not stockpiling









Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancebaraka* 
Congrats! That's wonderfull!!







:

Thank you! We aren't at a point where we can make all the modifications we want right now, but we've got a little bit of land that will soon be a garden, lots of ideas, and the willingness to do it (take the plunge and go into debt in this insane economy, that is).


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenivere* 
*I think we should start a thread about this is mindful home management and leave N&CE to be the debate forum that it is.* Then anyone who wants to debate the merits of stockpiling vs. stocking up vs. homesteading is welcome too.

Done!!!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=980933


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 

You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.

LOL but this is what is getting me about this whole thread. You're worried about say, losing electricity, water, or access to food, because of some "great depression" type scenario. Well, the Depression didn't last a couple weeks...it lasted TEN YEARS. So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope. So you move closer to the source, well so did everybody, so be ready to fight for your position. I mean maybe it makes some people feel better to think that their survivalist leanings gives them an edge over everyone else but honestly, realistically, no. It does not add up.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 

medicine-- well, I've got a years supply of steroids (immune disease) sitting right now because I'm pregnant and have medicaid. I can't afford them without insurance and medicaid, can't take em while I'm pregnant... But I'll use them before they go bad! I also have bottles of prenatal vits, and they'll be used up before expiring, too. And food, well, not much of a food stockpile (not like you are thinking at least) but it gets put into rotation so it's eaten before it expires... You use it before it's bad, otherwise you are _hoarding_, not stockpiling









.


Thanks for your response, I am really just trying to understand. From what I see on this thread (and hear from other stockpilers) is that there is a pretty fine line b/w stockpiling and hoarding. After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?


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## Krisis (May 29, 2008)

Oops, I killed the last thread. Sorry guys.

I'm stocking up on water jugs slowly. We're doing another Sam's run next week and I'm not getting a whole lot - an extra bag of cat food and some more pasta. Maybe some toilet paper. I really want to get a camp stove sometime in the next day or two. maybe









One thing I'm really looking into is getting a 3 month supply of medicine. I am on 2-3 different medications daily and if something happened tomorrow, in a week or two I would be screwed. I have to wait till I'm running out of my prescriptions before I can ask the pharmacy to order me a good supply of drugs, but you can bet your butt I'm doing it. Plus it's cheaper to do it that way too.

We also have thousands of aspirin/Advil/Aleves around here because we always lose the previous bottle, go out and buy a new one, and then find it. So we're stocked on painkillers for a while









If we ran out of water, there's a pond really near my apartment I could go and fill up at. It'd be gross, but with some bleach (getting that too) it would be edible. My mom also lives on a river, so there's fish and water right there. Sweet!

I'm keeping two cans of formula in our storage so we always have at least a month's supply for DS - although in about 3 months we should be finishing with formula, yay!!!

Someone asked what they'd do with their stockpile if nothing ever happened - use it! That's why I'm stocking up on things we actually eat. If nothing happens, awesome. I'm still going to use my storage, rotate it out, make sure nothing is expired, etc. None of this stuff is going to waste - it's all going to end up in my belly either way


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
LOL but this is what is getting me about this whole thread. You're worried about say, losing electricity, water, or access to food, because of some "great depression" type scenario. Well, the Depression didn't last a couple weeks...it lasted TEN YEARS. So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope. So you move closer to the source, well so did everybody, so be ready to fight for your position. *I mean maybe it makes some people feel better to think that their survivalist leanings gives them an edge over everyone else but honestly, realistically, no. It does not add up.*

Nope, I'm more worried about loosing out on electric, water, food because of inability to pay those bills-- I know I can go without and we won't be as uncomfortable as a lot of people. And I can have a couple weeks to fall back on in order to make other arrangements and not panic







My nearest water source is in my new back yard, so, nope, I personally wouldn't have to relocate for water, but in the event that someone else DOES have to relocate, they have a head start by having a safety net.









How doesn't it add up? Can you define "survivalist" here? Cause when you say it, I'm picturing someone hunkered in a bunker with gallons of freeze-dried corn and an uzi... it sounds dirty.
I'm talking about people who are prepared for a short-term crisis, and have the willingness to plod on for a long-term one...


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
This is very intriguing to me. I knew a guy who started stockpiling things in the late 80's, because of Black Thursday (y'all remember that??). I lost touch w/ him unfortunately, but I'd be curious to find out what has happened to his things.

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?

And when do you think the sh*t will hit the fan? I'm not being snarky, I just am a little puzzled b/c people have been saying "the end is near" for many years now, know what I mean?

I mean, take this guy I knew in the late 80's. He was CONVINCED that it was going to happen around that time, and he was wrong. And then the Y2K doomsdayers thought everything was going to collapse then.

At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????

We store what we use and use what we store. So basically we just have extra of things that we use all the time anyway. We just eat whatever is oldest and replace with a new one. It is really simple (but we don't have an enormous stockpile...just about 1 months worth, if that)

Y2K was all speculation. We are in the middle of an economic crisis in our Country-in the whole world really-and I refuse to ignore that fact.
Things are happening that have never happened before, our stock market is crashing, credit is frozen, Major banks are going under, Iceland is BANKRUPT for cryin' out loud, and reputable financial professionals are predicting a possible banking holiday.

This is completely different from Y2K.

I don't believe "The END is Coming"
Things world didn't end during or after the Great Depression, or in Argentina. People were/are VERY uncomfortable, though. Whatever happens we will survive and adapt. But I would like supplies to get by for a little while so that we can adapt without starving in the process. I don't know how bad it is going to get, but I am hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

Also we are poor renters who live paycheck to paycheck, so if DH lost his job and couldn't find another due to a tanking economy it would be nice to have extra food for a while.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?

No, I think it is.
Only keeping what you can eat in a week= not stockpiling.
Keeping enough to feed your family above and beyond 2 weeks, I do believe is stockpiling, to a degree. Even people who stockpile a full one-year supply of food will still go through that before it goes bad, or donate it before it does.

Our ancestors (including Granny and Gramps, and a few of our moms and dads) stockpiled food for the winter, from crops grown in their own gardens. Is that just as weird?


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I can't let it go...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope.

Never said that... I said:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.

Never said to haul it back, never said I thought all municipal water systems would be shut off FOREVER, or even for 10 years. Just that a 2 week cushion, at the smallest, would give you enough time to make other preparations








Public works were a BIG thing in the Great Depression, made lots of jobs.

And I do think my "survivalist leanings" give me an edge... For most of my life, I've lived WELL below poverty level, been an actual vagrant, slept on the street and everything. I've said it several times, I'm now glad I "grew up poor." I know how to survive on nothing or darn near nothing... I'm glad this thread is here so I can express that. There is food and shelter and self-help everywhere, if you just don't panic and look around you.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I don't think stockpiling is wrong but I do think hoarding is. To me stockpiling is buying things (in bulk) that your family will use when you can afford to and continually rotating it out for fresh supplies. It's simply being prepared. Hoarding is buying whatever you can get your hands on and holding onto it for dear life, refusing to share even to the point of letting things go to waste. The way I see things, hoarding is not a good thing but stockpiling is simply caring for you needs.


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
Our ancestors (including Granny and Gramps, and a few of our moms and dads) stockpiled food for the winter, from crops grown in their own gardens. Is that just as weird?

And plenty of people still do this in rural America and Canada. Especially if you're in a northern climate, "eating locally" means putting up a whole lot of preserves for the winter.

On a different note, I find it really weird that some people think preparedness means that we're trying to get "one up" on someone else. That is such a strange idea. It has nothing at all to do with competing with other people. How could someone even think that way?

When it comes down to it, we're simply trying to get "one up" on the harsh realities of nature... you know, the cold weather, disease-carrying organisms, our bodies' needs for food and water. Those are our "opponents."

As for the discussion of self-defense, and firearms more specifically -- this would be for a situation in which regular law enforcement were unavailable/overwhelmed/etc. If it suddenly became possible to steal from others with impunity, then no small number of people with weak morals would join in the looting (we have plenty of examples of this in recent history, unfortunately). We can't allow a breakdown of law and order. If we did, then the weakest among us would be harmed and exploited most of all.







In such a situation, those with the ability and resources would have to show their willingness to take action... not only to defend their own homes and families, but to deter the spread of crime in their neighborhoods.

And I would be very grateful to them.

This isn't "anti-community" -- it _is_ community, every bit as much as planting a shared organic garden, or starting a soup kitchen (both of which I also support). I wish it weren't so, but it is.

So anyway, whatever some members might think, preparedness isn't about competitiveness, or dragging ourselves out of the muck on the backs of our neighbors. I would like nothing better than for everyone to be successful. [







]


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryCeleste* 
And plenty of people still do this in rural America and Canada. Especially if you're in a northern climate, "eating locally" means putting up a whole lot of preserves for the winter.

On a different note, I find it really weird that some people think preparedness means that we're trying to get "one up" on someone else. That is such a strange idea. It has nothing at all to do with competing with other people. How could someone even think that way?

When it comes down to it, we're simply trying to get "one up" on the harsh realities of nature... you know, the cold weather, disease-carrying organisms, our bodies' needs for food and water. Those are our "opponents."

As for the discussion of self-defense, and firearms more specifically -- this would be for a situation in which regular law enforcement were unavailable/overwhelmed/etc. If it suddenly became possible to steal from others with impunity, then no small number of people with weak morals would join in the looting (we have plenty of examples of this in recent history, unfortunately). We can't allow a breakdown of law and order. If we did, then the weakest among us would be harmed and exploited most of all.







In such a situation, those with the ability and resources would have to show their willingness to take action... not only to defend their own homes and families, but to deter the spread of crime in their neighborhoods.

And I would be very grateful to them.

This isn't "anti-community" -- it _is_ community, every bit as much as planting a shared organic garden, or starting a soup kitchen (both of which I also support). I wish it weren't so, but it is.

So anyway, whatever some members might think, preparedness isn't about competitiveness, or dragging ourselves out of the muck on the backs of our neighbors. I would like nothing better than for everyone to be successful. [







]

Excellent post!!







:


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## JTA Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Thanks for your response, I am really just trying to understand. From what I see on this thread (and hear from other stockpilers) is that there is a pretty fine line b/w stockpiling and hoarding. After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?

See that's where the definition of stockpiling and hoarding come up. Honestly, the line is fluid between the two, and in many cases, depends on if the person is the one with food or the one wanting it.









My definition:
Stockpiling means amassing a great quantity of thing you WILL use up. So, if every week my family goes through a pound of pasta, I can decide to buy it all in one go (52lbs at one time) or buy it piecemeal throughout the year. Somehow, and I don't know WHY, some people here have an issue with buying the whole 52lbs at once, as if that makes someone 'bad.'

HOARDING, on the other hand, means buying way more than one can use AND/OR buying stuff one doesn't use just to be "safe" and letting it go bad. Hence, if, say, my family doesn't eat beans (omg, I think I'd die, I LOVE beans) and I buy 100 lbs of it, then I'm hoarding. Because I wouldn't eat it and it would go bad. In essence, I'm wasting food someone else would have eaten.

The other trend I've noticed is that a lot of people who see no reason to stockpile bring up scenarios (like water shut off, shooting neighbors) which then people who do stockpile try to explain what they would do in those situations--and then those who don't stockpile say those who do are "crazy" for bringing up those topics. Umm, y'all brought it up first.

As for one poster saying that they (single woman, 2 small kids) being the first to go. Yes, you are vulnerable. And no, I don't think only men would be violent and marauding the streets. HOWEVER, you have ONE BIG ADVANTAGE. You are not seen as a threat by most people. In fact, many would be glad to take you guys in if you have skills to trade for food & shelter. Honestly, I am MUCH more likely to give aid to a woman with small children than a man. Why? Maybe I'm sexist, but I KNOW that the majority of mothers are concerned with their kids and would use the food I gave them to feed their kids rather than sell it to the next high bidder, kwim? If you don't believe me, look at the small loans given in places like India. Their focus is on women because they are the ones most likely to use it to better their families.

That said, I sense a lot of classist issues here. Those who can't afford to stockpile seem to be pissed at those who can. As if somehow stockpiling is a sign of 'excess.' Am I wrong?

As for those on the lowest economic rungs being the most vulnerable--yep always have been, and always will be. Do I agree with this? Nope. But it is reality. I was on the bottom before, like another poster. I've been homeless as a child. Food was a matter of choosing whether I wanted both pb & jelly on my bread or just one. It SUCKED. Right now, dh and I are not very well off, but we are still able to buy a few things. Also, I have no qualms about living with family. I have a single female friend who is living in HUD apartments that might become incredibly dangerous. Shoot, she already has had breakins and locks her bedroom door. I don't think worse financial times will make things better, kwim? If she ever said a peep about being scared/hungry, I'd help her out in a heartbeat. Why? Because I care about her and won't let her starve/be in danger. So community wise, yes, I fall back on family. My neighbors aren't particularly friendly back during the boom times, so yea. A few are ok, but a lot are, well, ahem.









As far as violence. Um, during all economic downturns, crime increases. I remember transcribing letters from the early 1930s from a wife to husband where the theft of milk, laundry and garden produce was common enough that they wrote about it and what they were doing to find the culprit/keep their stuff safe, etc. Do I like the idea of more pissed off people willing to resort to violence? Umm, no, but I'm not going to pretend it won't happen.

And the comment about shooting people who try to violently take my food. I'd rather have my own stockpile so that I'm not driven to steal other people's food for my son.

Ami


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Again - what does the current economic crisis have to do with stockpiling? Is it a) in the event that the money-earning member(s) of the household loses their job(s), b) in the belief that there is an imminent (meaning: next six months) food shortage on the horizon, or c) because of a coming social and cultural collapse? Or another reason?

I can understand A. I can't understand how B or C seems realistic.

B is happening to Iceland right now. Money affects availability of food. No money, no food. Too high oil prices, no food. B is very possible imo. C is a more distant possibility but I would say B leads to C. C happened to Russia and Argentina teetered on the edge of C.

As far as things we've been doing recently to prepare for hard times:

1. We canceled our cable and phone. We use Netflix instead which is much cheaper.

2.Aside from stockpiling food, we have some raspberry bushes coming this month that we will plant as a hedge in the front yard. The great thing about raspberries is they make babies very frequently that we can give to neighbors so they can grow berries too. In the Spring we'll plant apple trees in our tree lawn (our backyard it too shady to grow things).

3.I am making the switch to only buying gifts from individuals (i.e. Etsy), gifts that help the environment (Sigg bottles), or gifts that are used.

V


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

What is it about cans of food that makes them go bad after a year? I have many cans of green beans, etc that are easily over 3 years old. Are they unsafe to use and if so, why?


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.

You seem really angry about this. I'm the one who posted about water purifiers and solar ovens. My point in posting about those items wasn't to say that YOU should buy them. But you posted asking why people were stockpiling rice without taking precautions to be able to cook the rice. So I responded that these are the ways people prepare. We have a water filter because we like to go backpacking, but it's nice that we have it for just in case also. As for solar cookers, here's a link that shows you how to build several different models for very little cost. It may not be in your budget to build one of these, but my point is that spending hundreds of dollars on fancy gadgets isn't the only option.
http://solarcooking.org/plans/

As for how I'd personally acquire water, I'd gather rain water and snow to start with. I also have a seasonal creek in my backyard, and I live within a mile of a major river.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.

We live in the country and rely on a well with an electric pump for our water. If the eletricity goes out, we will be without water. The electricity could go out because we fail to pay the bill. I also think that if money and/or resources were hard to come by, maintaining rural electricity wouldn't be as high of a priority as maintaining electricity to towns and cities for electric companies. Providing electricity to rural customers is more expensive and requires more resources (more power lines, etc.) that providing electricity to more densly populated areas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

I don't keep large quantities of medicine.

Quote:

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?
I eat the food I stockpile. I don't stock up things unless I use them. Like others have mentioned, I rotate through my pantry so that the food is eaten before it expires.

Quote:

At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????
I don't think I'm ever going to get to that point. I live the way my grandparents (who lived through the depression) and parents live. I keep a stocked pantry partly because I'm concerned about the current financial situation, but mostly because I think it's a smart thing to do. There can be no harm in keeping a large quantity of items _that you're going to use anyway_.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I'm returning this thread and moving it to MHM. I am going to leave it closed, because I know there is a new thread started there. I have removed numerous post for UAVs, quoting UAVs and generally being OT.


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