# Calling Cps/police for spanking/abuse...



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I've been reading a lot of posts here about wanting or thinking about calling the police or cps for suspected abuse and as a foster mom I just want to offer some "advice/suggestions/thoughts" on that....
There have been times when I have been tempted to call (even on my own family members) for suspected abuse BUT......once you call in a "suspected" child abuse case, cps HAS to investigate. IF you get a psycho Social worker (which believe me there are plenty) and they go out to a home you called on and find anything out of the ordinary, there is a good chance children can be removed. Please remember, we all have bad days.....we've all had times when we've yelled at our children or possibly threatened them with a spanking or parents who still see spanking as a reasonable punishment (uneducated in gd parenting). Those parents arent bad people hurting their children.....sometimes we can all get caught with a messy house, laundry piled up, at our wit's end, pregnant with raging hormones, tired of our whining toddler, and sleep deprived.....but a social worker coming into a home like that may view it as "child endangerment". I"ve seen kids taken from good parents on a bad day and believe me, those children have severe emotional scars from being ripped from their parents arms into a cold dcfs office and then into strange foster parents homes.
I am in no way saying NOT to call if you truly suspect "abuse" but if you see a mother losing it and spanking their child in public, it's not wise to automatically assume they are being "abused"....even though gd sees spanking as abuse.....Ok, i'm rambling but my point is......maybe we all need to find ways of passing on the great benefits of gentle discipline in a gentle way?
I agree that spanking is not the answer.....but risking a child going into the system for a witnessed spanking is really really scary to me.....does that all make sense? I'm sorry....so tired and it's late.....I just wanted to offer that bit of info on what can happen when cps is called.......it's obviously super important to report child abuse immediately.....


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

......maybe we all need to find ways of passing on the great benefits of gentle discipline in a gentle way?

I agree that spanking is not the answer.....but risking a child going into the system for a witnessed spanking is really really scary to me
I know some excellent, wonderful, attached and great parents who spank.

I've spent the last 10 years trying to help parents parent positively. A lot of that time has been with Christian parents, trying to help those who are willing move out of a very damaging, very punitive paradigm.

What I've noticed is that while "spanking" is not acceptable in any form, you can't approach it as though all parents who spank are the same angry, tired parent at Wal Mart.

The more the focus is on "spanking" or "not spanking", the less time and energy we spend on real discipline. If a parent uses spanking for everything, they are creating a discipline enviornment and family tone that is adversarial and unfair. And if a parent is focused on "not spanking", they are not building the skills needed to discipline in other ways.

I've found that when engaging with parents in discussion over the issue, empathy and common ground seeking is better than insisting that spanking is "wrong".

I'm completely against spanking. But being a Christian homeschooler, if I believed that spanking is a reportable offense, I'd be reporting my peers every day. Indeed, there are people (some who homeschool and I probably meet daily) who believe it's sexual abuse to sleep next to school aged kids or to nurse children to say, age 6. There are some people who believe it's medical neglect to selectively vaccinate. There are some who are against the fact that I never sought a diagnosis for my sensory issued son.

Spanking is an act of violence against children. I think that while as a culture we need to move away from the cultural sanction of spanking, we'll *really* be making progress when we focus on parenting firmly without it.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

In most places, spanking is not considered child abuse anyway. Nothing to be gained by having the law up someone's rear end for months or years for what very well might be a one time incident. Now, if I saw someone just whaling on their kid, yes I would try to help and even stop that person from knocking the heck out of the kid, but a simple spanking, although I am NOT for it, is not legally wrong in most areas.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Thanks so much for starting this thread. Children do not deserve to be ripped out of their parents' home with little explanation or preparation (which is usually how it happens) because the house has gotten messy and mom smacked Johnny on the back of the hand.

The "system" through which parents and children have to navigate when families are separated because of abuse/neglect allegations is simply traumatic. It can cause much much more damage to a child to be removed from Mom and Dad than if he remains at home where (for example) he's occasionally hit and doesn't get a bath more than once a week.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I live in Canada, not the US. But, my sister had someone call Social Services. Her son had slipped the lock on the apartment door, while she was in the kitchen doing dishes. He was just over one, and had climbed up on something and popped off the chain (my nephew was quite an escape artist). She thought he was sleeping in the bedroom. Now, it's entirely possible that my sister was talking on the phone at the time, and hadn't checked on him in a while. But, I don't think it's unreasonable that she didn't know he'd go outside - he usually came to find her when he got up from his nap.

So...he got outside, and ran into the street. A woman stopped her car and got out, calling to him...so he ran back inside like a shot. She followed him up to the apartment and knocked on the door. At this point, my sister still didn't even know he'd been out! She explained that my nephew must have popped the lock and that she was doing dishes and she was freaked out that he'd been out, etc., etc.

The woman called Social Services. I think that was probably mostly because my sister has tattoos, to be honest. Anyway...they showed up with a huge list of things to check for...what kind of CD's she had, what kind of movies were on the shelves, what kind of books she read, and whether there was evidence of drugs or paraphenalia. I was more than a little horrified - the guy made a note that she had horror movies where her son could reach them!! First of all, he didn't know how to work the VCR, and what business is that of SS, anyway??

It turned out okay, but I couldn't believe the grief she got over her child slipping out. They could have taken my nephew, if they'd decided - based on _one_ visit - that my sister was an unfit parent. And, it was just because he'd managed to open a chain lock!!

I was present once at an "apprehension" of some kids (long story and not mine to tell). Having seen that poor little six-year-old boy burrow into the corner of his bed, cowering under the sheets and crying and screaming for daddy to stop them...I'd have to believe a child's life was in danger before I'd call Social Services. The social worker in that case was totally insane, and the fact that someone like that can have _any_ say over our children's futures scares me spitless.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

I know I made a post like that, and I stand by what I said. I referred to something "more than a spanking". If you see it, it's very disturbing - loss of control, violent hitting. If you ask yourself, "that wasn't just a spanking, was it?" then I think the police should be called. Most definitely.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sugarbeth*
I know I made a post like that, and I stand by what I said. I referred to something "more than a spanking". If you see it, it's very disturbing - loss of control, violent hitting. If you ask yourself, "that wasn't just a spanking, was it?" then I think the police should be called. Most definitely.

I totally agree that in that type of circumstance, it's important to call it in.....my point was just not to call thinking that cps will come in and save the day....unfortunately, it doesnt work like that...







I just meant, call if it's a definite abuse case but really think about it if you're calling because you think a mom at a store or whatever just lost it .....kwim? I hope i'm not coming off as sounding high and mighty....TOTALLY NOT what i'm trying to convey here.....


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

and also when every little piddly bad moment is called in it distracts CPS from doing thier job and helping families who really need help.

I I know what you are talking about original poster. I see it here all the time.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
It turned out okay, but I couldn't believe the grief she got over her child slipping out. They could have taken my nephew, if they'd decided - based on _one_ visit - that my sister was an unfit parent. And, it was just because he'd managed to open a chain lock!!

I was present once at an "apprehension" of some kids (long story and not mine to tell). Having seen that poor little six-year-old boy burrow into the corner of his bed, cowering under the sheets and crying and screaming for daddy to stop them...I'd have to believe a child's life was in danger before I'd call Social Services. The social worker in that case was totally insane, and the fact that someone like that can have _any_ say over our children's futures scares me spitless.

Thank you for this StormBride, and to the OP for posting this. It's easy to feel frightened and concerned for children if you see them being treated poorly, but from my experience with Social Services, I would only call them if I was fairly certain that child's long-term health or life was in danger.

Not because I feel that it's right to treat your children like that, but because I think the system is incredibly ineffective. Like it or not, abused children are very attached to their parents, and removing them from the home to put them in an emergency shelter or a foster home is incredibly traumatic. From what I have seen, it's almost always more traumatic than the situation which warranted it.

I'm a CASA, and I have a case where two little boys, aged 2 and 3, just under a year apart, were removed from their home and placed in the emergency shelter because their grandmother had whipped them with a horse whip. Yes, that was a terrible thing to do, but they were also very attached to their mother, who was their primary caregiver and she had not abused them. They lived in the shelter, which is really just a glorified daycare, with high staff turnover, for TWO YEARS! I am 99% certain they will never recover from this, from the loss of a chance to be attached during those important, formative years. Unfortunately, I don't think this case is exceptional, either. And we have reportedly one of the best Social Services and Family Courts in the country.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

There was a recent case in Ontario that got a lot of attention.

A religious fundamentalist family had their six children carried out of their home because they had used "a switch" on their behinds.

It was a horrible thing to watch, children crying and screaming, being carried away by these "case workers" and police, parents freaking out, etc, it was broadcast across Canada.

It was later determined that the CPS worker was very new to the job and had crossed the line when she went into the house and told the girls to lift their skirts and pull down their underwear so she could look for welts. These are very modest people, this would have been horrible for them.

The children spent several weeks away from their parents, in foster homes, before they were able to go home.

As much as I may disagree with whipping children, hitting children, slapping children, etc, I think that in most circumstances, being removed from the parents and the home is more damaging than the less than desirable parenting. I, too, would only call in "child services" if I thought the child's long-term health or life was in danger.

It's sad that we even have to think about this though.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I have taught in public schools in Los Angeles, Houston, and two urban areas in NJ. I have been involved in the lives of so many children who have been passed around from foster home to foster home, lost in the social services system. These are lost souls, a lot of them. I myself would think long and hard before calling CPS on ANYBODY, because if the children are removed from their homes, where they wind up is likely to be worse.

I have seen a few rare cases where CPS caused a parent who had "crossed the line" to wise up and be more careful how a child was cared for. I've also known some very loving, concerned people who give shelter to foster kids, and even wind up adopting them. But I have seen many, many more cases where CPS's involvement made the situation much worse.

I have seen kids put right back with really, truly abusive parents only days later, only now the parents are also angry about having gotten "caught." It's the kid who pays the price.

I've seen kids yanked from basically good, loving homes, because a parent was going through some tough times and made a few mistakes.

I've seen kids placed in "foster homes" with adults who are far more selfish, abusive, and uncaring than the child's own family ever was.

I've seen really young kids with nobody in the world to call their own.

From what I've seen, the system is seriously broken, and so I'd have to really think before I called CPS into a child's life. I'd have to be concerned that the child's life, health, or emotional wholeness were really, truly, and seriously at stake.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I have reported the family who condoned their son being beaten with a rubber car hose such that the child had wounds deep enough that a finger could be placed inside, all over the child's body as he writhed on the ground trying to escape the beating for not saying "Yes, Ma'am" to his grandmother. The child was interviewed by the school counselor who assured him that what was done to him was not his fault, not deserved and that she was going to confront the father and that she was not afraid of his father and that if anyone ever did anything like that again, she would help him.

CPS interviewed the family and they were given counselling because they did not report the crime perpetrated by the boy's grandfather. The police did nothing to the grandfather who assualted the 10 year old child.

So, I have little faith in the system regardless. But at least the child was told by one humane person in this world that what he experienced was wrong.

Pat


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I've spoken to my best friend about this in depth, as she is a sheriff's deputy (the odd couple, I know lol)...and she has to accompany CPS if they want to look through a person's house for neglect/abuse etc... my best friend is utterly SHOCKED at the cases that CPS _doesn't_ do anything about...I know everyone is relaying stories where they have taken kids away for spanking etc... but my best friend says she has seen horrible cases of neglect or abuse (suspected) --- where CPS didn't do a thing about it... they just walked in, did their thing, and left without doing anything for the children...

So it goes both ways too, sometimes when there is a need for intervention...they don't do anything...too many cases, too little pay, too many social workers burned out, de-sensitized to everything etc...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The other thing I find weird is the follow up, when it happens. The kids I saw apprehended were kept from their parents for almost a year. They were required to undergo complete physicals, which really freaked out the 6-year-old. The doctors found _nothing_. The kids were in foster care, and were allowed to visit their parents under the supervision of the foster parents (very nice couple...luckily). The parents were required to go for weekly counselling. At the end of that year, the kids were returned to their parents. They'd received no counselling about the allegations _or_ about having been ripped out of their own beds and taken to live with strangers. There was never one shred of physical evidence found (I've read the whole court transcripts). So...what exactly did this do for the kids??

I also had two friends in high school who lived in the same foster home. The foster mother (single parent) went out partying every night and her boarders were selling drugs to the foster kids. I strongly suspect from things I saw and comments I heard that one of the boarders, a man of about 25 at that time, was sexually abusing my then-13-year-old friend. If he wasn't actually doing anything, he was definitely crossing the lines of what's acceptable behaviour. This girl was taken from her mother, because her mother was a heroin addict. I can't really fault that...but was the situation she was put in really any better?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

that we have *more* of an obligation to speak up and say "there are better ways to handle that, you don't have to spank" when we encounter spanking? I mean, I (knock on wood) have not yet been in a situation where I have to make a choice about whether to speak, but I like to think that I could in some way direct the person towards other possibilities. And, if it's a person who normally would *never* spank and is just frustrated into a threat, knowing that someone is watching and sympathetic to their frustration could give them that bit of extra support to not carry out the threat/not repeat the threat.

There are people out there who'll say "I'd smack his butt" when a kid is acting normally, we should be the one's saying "that's perfectly normal, my son/daughter/cousin/little brother/sister was exactly the same way, it's okay to let them be a child".


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I know I made a post like that, and I stand by what I said. I referred to something "more than a spanking". If you see it, it's very disturbing - loss of control, violent hitting. If you ask yourself, "that wasn't just a spanking, was it?" then I think the police should be called. Most definitely.

Quote:

I've seen kids yanked from basically good, loving homes, because a parent was going through some tough times and made a few mistakes.
I'm not sure what the poster of the first quote "saw". But I'll admit right here that here have been a couple of incidents in my own parenting in the last 10 years that, taken out of context and if used to evaluate my parenting, could be considered abusive.

To have been reported and checked up on and risks intervention would have been a travesty. I think CPS is a necessary and completely flawed system. And I think that as individual citizens we need to take on the responsibility to evaluate making reports very, very, very carefully.

Personally, I think that reports to CPS should be one of the last things a person does. Intervention of other kinds is more helpful and more needed. But it's also harder and more unsettling and requires more of us than a phone call.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

There have been a lot of wise things said in this thread. I have very little faith in our CPS system. Because of so many children taken out of loving homes, I would have to seriously fear for the children's safety and well being to make a call. All it does take is one crazy worker to make a parent's life a living hell.

I do know several very good mothers who spank their children, and all though I know spanking isn't popular, those mothers love their children with all their hearts and I would never turn them into CPS. I am saying that I think spanking is right, but I know those children are loved and are much better off with their parents then in the cold clutches of the broken down CPS foster care system. All of those children are happy, and well adjusted, and while we may not agree with their discipline methods, those children are not abused.

That said, I do know of a friend who had CPS called on her, and the CPS worker told her she actually had the right to spank her child! So....I think it can go either way, but I would have to do some serious thinking before I ever called. I would have believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if I did not take immediate action, the child's physical and emotional well-being would be in danger of irreversable damage, or could result in death.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

When ds1 was about 8 or 10 months old, I can't remember which, shortly after we got up one Monday morning, we had 2 social workers at our door. Supposedly someone had said that we "weren't feeding" ds. They were obviously lying, because I know exactly why they were there and it had nothing to do with feeding. They were there because we tried CIO to get ds to nap on the Friday and Saturday (which I felt completely hideous about, Friday we tried Ferber and Saturday we tried Baby Whisperer and then vowed never to do anything so awful again). They just didn't say that because they were trying to keep us from realizing that it was our neighbours who called them.

I was completely terrified, my house was a disaster and I was sure they were going to take ds away. Luckily, I had the excuse that we were going to be moving and were packing (which was true, the move didn't fall through until later, but my house is always a disaster, dh and I are both pack-rats without enough space). I gave ds to the social worker to hold so she could feel that he wasn't starving (totally ridiculous, since we took him to be weighed every month, but that was their excuse for being there) and so that she could interact with him. Thankfully, that was the last we ever heard from them, but it so easily could have been worse.

I'm still angry at the neighbours for not talking to us, though. We were friendly with them, but after they called, they never talked to us again and seemed to go out of their way to avoid us.

Sorry, I think that was kind of a tangent to the thread, wasn't it?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

_I know I made a post like that, and I stand by what I said. I referred to something "more than a spanking". If you see it, it's very disturbing - loss of control, violent hitting. If you ask yourself, "that wasn't just a spanking, was it?" then I think the police should be called. Most definitely._

We should totally be tracking some posters here and report the ones who tearfully come and admit that they lost control.

Devaskyla, that is truly frightening. That's one of my worst fears, because frankly I don't think I truly have to do anything really wrong to have the wrong person freak out at a bad time. I'm a bit paranoid, but I just feel that mothers, who work so hard with so little support, are often just walking on a tightrope with people's eyes on them. (I've put ds in a carseat without strapping him in, then walked around the car to do so inside of it, because it was cold, and realized that three women were just staring at me whispering about whether or not I was going to buckle him in. I mean, WTF. The car wasn't even running.) I was under the impression that you could report someone for a false report to family services? Surely trying CIO one evening, a pretty mainstream practice as we all know, would not warrant calling authorities on you and risking potential disaster.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

A friend of mine had CPS called on her by a neighbor because he sone was crying and screaming as she buckled him in the car. He is very touch-sensitive and never reacts well to his carseat.

She was under investigation for weeks, and may still be, because of a problematic living situation. (She lost her house, lived with me for several months, then moved into her stbx husband's apartment.) This woman has worked so hard to keep him safe and happy during terrible upheavals that no two yr old should hav eto deal with, and that no mom should have to deal with. The problem was CPS went nuts not because of the crying in the carseat at all, but because he apartment is 'too small' bc she doesn't have enough money, etc. It doesn't help that the child is definitely a high needs kids and is prone to crying and to headbanging, which also freaked CPS right out.

It was a nightmare for her that I hope is over, but it's so importnat to remember that in the US we live in a culture that has criminalized poverty. If CPS gets involved in a case where there are poverty issues, it is much, much harder to get rid of them when the initial problem is shown to be inocuous.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

My neighbors kitty-corner are very odd to me. There seems to be a few different families (or atleast races) living in the one house. There seems to be two or three adult men, one or two teenage boys, a woman and a 3 or four year old girl (from what I can tell....) Every night there is one or two of them pacing up and down the street on cell phones. I'm talking the better part of the night here. My friend and I joke that it's a "drug house" but what if it really is? Probably not, but their activity is a little suspicious. At first it was just the teenagers (which is normal I think) but then it was the adults too.

One night at about 2 a.m., I was on my porch enjoying the night. All of a sudden I heard from this house a man yell "SHUTUP!!!" then a few moments later "SHUTUP AND GO TO SLEEP!" he did this a few more times, so loud that anyone on the street could hear, and I finally screamed "YOU SHUTUP!" and they did. I couldn't help it, I had to say something! I hear them tell this girl to shutup constantly. She's never outside and I didn't even know it was a she for months because I never saw her.

My girlfriend said I should call CPS. But I remember one time hearing the girl say I love you to one of the teenage boys and he said it back. I know it's just probably ignorance and lack of patience that makes this home difficult for this little girl. It breaks my heart to hear this stuff go on, her crying late at night because they are to lazy to put her to bed, but I would never call CPS unless I saw her get struck. You know what I mean, as if it's a gut reaction to strike her when she's being difficult. That's what I watch for, but isn't going to happen seeing as neither her OR her mom (?) is EVER out of the house.
I live on a good street, so this is odd to the rest of my neighbors and I. But I know this little girl probably feels unloved sometimes, but this is her _family_. I would never take a child's family away from her by calling them in. If she got put into a crappy foster home and got abused there, IMO that's worse than getting abused by your own family, because at least you're _with_ your own family.... does that make sense? My friend said she'd call in a heartbeat. I said that there are more things to think about before doing things like that. I have another friend who was raised in foster homes and wouldn't wish it on anyone.







I rambled









Oh and *StormBride*, I have had this happen as well. I was outside with three little girls (mine and my friend's two) and the youngest of them gave me the slip and ended up in the street







and an old man and lady stopped their car and brought her back up the driveway. I noticed right away and was halfway down the driveway before they even stopped but I was still worried for a moment because of course the old man looked like he was about to faint or something..... close call but by no means indicative of my parenting abilities.....


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

SunRayeMomi, I think you are absolutely right not to call. Someitmes 'suspicious' behavior is really mostly behavior that does not conform to the dominant paradigm. I had three families living in my house this summer; DH and me, and two single moms and their kids, including a preteen and a teenage boy on weekends. It was a challenging summer in all kinds of ways, but it kept a family off the streets and a woman away from a dangerous relationship. I know our neighbors were a little freaked out by four adults (although with a bunch of other friends babysitting, I'm sure they thought the situation was wierder than it was). One of the kids (the one I mentioned in my last post) is very high needs and sensitive to touch and often he would cry inconsolably for hours.

I consider us very lucky that no one called CPS on us.

I guess part of it is that we live in a trailer park, where everyoen is fighting a negative stereotype and no one really wants to get involved.

Really, however wierd people may seem, if you don't *see* *serious* physical or sexual abuse, no good can come from reporting.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

Really, however wierd people may seem, if you don't *see* *serious* physical or sexual abuse, no good can come from reporting.
I agree. I am trying to catch this girl outside and offer a playdate. I think that it will be more constructive to open up to the famil instead of pidgeon hole them.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunRayeMomi*
I agree. I am trying to catch this girl outside and offer a playdate. I think that it will be more constructive to open up to the famil instead of pidgeon hole them.

That can be *so* wonderful. One of our mamas here was not so good about the finer points of childcare and her 4 yo was suffering from an overabundance of tv and a lack of real play. DH and I did our best to help, but we were so grateful when a neighbor a couple of houses down started setting up playdates between the her daughter and our friend's DD. It really helped and probably helped alleviate some of our neighbors concerns.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Yes, I think poorer people or people of color definitely are not given the benefit of the doubt, should they wind up in this situation.

I think a playdate sounds like a great idea, Sunraye.
But Oh god, though, yelling and neighbors. We live in a house, but the houses are very close together here. There have been many occasions where I have yelled loudly, and of course I feel horrible about it and it's not right and I try not to, but I often worry what the neighbor would think if they were in their yard and heard that. (I don't think you'd hear it down the street or anything.) They would have no idea how much I do, no idea that he's two and big and kicking me in the pregnant stomach while I'm trying to change a po-filled diaper, that I've read everything and tried distracting him and waiting, and counting and time outs (not all at once) and distracting again, and being firm. They wouldn't hear the first 50 times where I'm being patient. I know sometimes it's not like that. Yelling is just a first resort in some families. But its' something that's always worried me. I'm just trying so hard and they have no idea. I hate the idea of somone thinking I'm a bad parent, but I'm sure people have at times.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*
The problem was CPS went nuts not because of the crying in the carseat at all, but because he apartment is 'too small' bc she doesn't have enough money, etc. It doesn't help that the child is definitely a high needs kids and is prone to crying and to headbanging, which also freaked CPS right out.

Tie-dyed,

This child needs to be evaluated for sensory integration at some point it sounds like. High sensitivity to touch, headbanging and prolonged crying can be sensory issues that can be addressed by providing specific and regular sensory soothing comforts. Dairy and wheat intolerances can exacerbate similar violent crying and violent large body movements. There are many sensory integration programs available. When children with sensory needs are not addressed with awareness and support, their behaviors often can be considered malicious misbehavior and lead to significant physical discipline despite the child's *inability* to cease the repetitive behaviors.

Pat


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I have a sister who my parents adopted from Jamaica at the age of 6 (19 now). She was a VERY strong-willed child and had some emotional problem from living a depraved early childhood in an orphanage in Jamaica. My mom had lots of problems with her. Well, I remember one incident when my sister was probably like 7 or so and in the public schools. I was like 14 or 15. My mom was having problems with my sister getting dressed and *something* happened..not really sure as I wasn't there but my mom went to grab my sister to hold or something and ended up accidently tearing a hairbow out of my sisters hair which scraped across her face, making a huge mark. My mom knew the teachers would ask my sister what happened and she would have said something like "my mom hit me" even though that wasn't what really happened. So, my mom called the school ahead of time and explained what happened and the school had to send a social worker out to our house.

It was a *very* scary time for me, because my mom talked to us and told us that someone might pull us out of class at school to talk to us (no one ever did) and my mom was really scared and I heard her talking to my dad about "fighting for her children" and things like that. I could tell my mom was scared about losing us, or that we might have to go to foster care. Nothing ever happened. The social worker came to the house and talked to my mom and my sister but no one else. That was the end of it. But, I remember being so scared and terrified as a 14/15 year old to think about what could happen...and I dind't even know what CPS was back then. Looking back, I shudder to think that if we had gotten a bad social worker or someone wanted to blow something out of proportion, I could have been put in foster care where I might have become another abused, molested teenage girl.

I would never call CPS on anyone unless I was SURE there was real abuse and danger and they would be better off with foster care. Even taking a chlid away for a very short time would be very, very, very, very tramautic.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Tie-dyed,

This child needs to be evaluated for sensory integration at some point it sounds like. High sensitivity to touch, headbanging and prolonged crying can be sensory issues that can be addressed by providing specific and regular sensory soothing comforts. Dairy and wheat intolerances can exacerbate similar violent crying and violent large body movements. There are many sensory integration programs available. When children with sensory needs are not addressed with awareness and support, their behaviors often can be considered malicious misbehavior and lead to significant physical discipline despite the child's *inability* to cease the repetitive behaviors.

Pat

I know. I know he has been evaluated by his ped but not any kind of specialist. I know that the ped suggested waiting to see how it goes, that it seemed to him that most of the issues were stemming from instability (this child has been exposed to *extreme* instability. The family's time in my house was an improvement over being in a shelter, which was their only other option, but not that much of an improvement--we did have three families living in a small house.)

For the past few months the family has been back together. The child's dad went through rehab and the whole family is goign to counseling togehter, and things are *a lot* better than they were. And the child is improving tremendously. The mom is going to try to get him into head start in another year where he will probably be evaluated further, but his ped seems to be a good one (I'm considering him for our babe), so I'm starting to relax a bit aobut the child's sensory issues.

Don't mean to hijack the thread here, but I appreciate your concern and didn't want to leave you worrying about this child.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Giving a child "more than a spanking" in public in front of others indicates a huge problem to me. That's when I would have called the police. I agree calling them for every little thing won't help anyone.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

I was under the impression that you could report someone for a false report to family services? Surely trying CIO one evening, a pretty mainstream practice as we all know, would not warrant calling authorities on you and risking potential disaster.
Well, they might be able to do something about false reports, but they have the system set up so that they won't tell who reported you. The only reason I know it was the neighbours is because the timing of it was so obvious and these particular neighbours, who had been quite friendly to us when I was pregnant and for awhile after ds1 was born, stopped talking to us and actually went out of the way to avoid us for the rest of the time they lived next to us. The other neighbour we only talked to once or twice and he was still nice to us, even gave us a poster for ds when he moved.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

Hello! Ok, so I did not read all the posts... but wanted to add my two bits...

While I agree with not being overly sensitive to calling CPS on a family who is having a bad moment or has spanked their child. I WOULD recommend that if you have a concern about a child/children that you at least look into your local agency to see what their protocal is. Some states (I live in Montana), have been cutting back on the budget for the CPS services, and so the kids aren't necessarily being taken away from their families instantaneously. We had heard our neighbor verbally abusing our downstairs neighbor, and called in. We were told that they would keep the report on file. I'm not sure how many reports they need to get before they need to investigate here.

Bottom line, listen to your heart... if you have a concern, no matter what it is, the children could benefit from you paying attention to that family's behavior if you see them regulary... we were told to watch things like if the kids were dressed appropriatly for the weather, etc. So although it may not be good to call at the first sight of a spanking, if there is a problem you will notice it over time, and it would be good to keep record of what you see (in a journal if you have the time)... and even call in if you have additional reason to be concerned....

JMHO


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## rayanewbold (Nov 15, 2005)

I have seen someone loosing control and doing more then spanking. It was my Father inlaw. My husband often told me about how he was abused as a child. But the Father in law I knew was always kind and smiling. It turned out he has some chemical inballances that was undiagnost while my DH was growing up.

And I never believed my DH, I thought his stories were overgrown until we visited with our 3 little boys. Grandma called him in to help a nephew take his medicine. The child refused and he flew off the handle. Leaving the nephew shaking, Grandma in tears and my own kids swearing to "light saber" thier grandpa.

We did the only things we felt we could do. We left and called the nephew's parents and told them what had happened. We have not foudn the heart to ever go back and visit them.


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

I just find it disturbing at all the people would call CPS to punish parents knowing full well it will hurt the kids way worse to be ripped away from their families, however imperfect, and put into the system.

CPS does not exist to punish parents for being wrong, stupid or uneducated. It exists to protect children who are in danger. Spanking is still legal, regardless of the fact that it is an act of violence against children. I would rather have been spanked by parents who thought it was a loving act my entire childhood than taken away and put into the foster care system. Is spanking wrong? You bet! But it hurts kids way more to be taken from their families for these minor offenses.

I also agree with tie-dyed, poverty is a big issue.


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*

Really, however wierd people may seem, if you don't *see* *serious* physical or sexual abuse, no good can come from reporting.

Sexual abuse is difficult to *see*, but I agree that you need some clear evidence before you subject a child to the questions etc., s/he will face during a sexual abuse investigation.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

i've had them deeply in my life, b/c of a simple problem that they could have easily cleared up had they been willing to call my child's dr. the caseworker told me that he (a DC) wasn't a doctor... instead they drug me through four months of hell just so they could drop the case before court date and leave me registered as a 'child neglector'.
if you read the CPS manual in this state, it includes chiropractors as 'health care professionals'. nobody seemed to care much about this. and the upper levels are shockingly adept at losing phone messages when you are doing the complaining about THEM...







: i know the sheer terror of being told by an irritable gov't employee that they'll be right back to take your kid if you don't let them in your house...rights be damned, those workers want their paycheck and didn't show up to your house for nothing!

anyhoo, i, because of my personal experience (coupled with general belief that governments exist to keep good things from happening), would be DEEPLY reluctant to call CPS on anyone.

last week i saw a child about MY baby's age (2.5?) get a slap on the butt.







it was at the library, and they were leaving the building as i was checking out.
i dont' know them, may never see them again. as i was leaving the parking lot, the little girl was trying to run away from her mom again (wonder why...?)

i kind of ran over to her, got on her level, and said, 'hey hey honey, head back to your mama, she's here to protect you in the parking lot'. the little one was so surprised by me, not knowing me, that she kinda froze, then the mom caught up. i tried to say something to the mom like 'such a trying age, when they don't understand safety yet'. and smiled at her.

it was really the best i could do. you could tell that the mom was totally stressed out, there were 2 other older kids with her. i don't care who you are, being a mom to 3 in a culture that doesn't support...well, ANYBODY, let alone children and their families...
i wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, even though at first, when i saw the baby get hit, i screeched OHMIGOD! to the librarian, and tried to start a chat about why hitting kids sucks...she wasn't biting...
it's so hard sometimes.
thanks, OP, i appreciate your advising caution about CPS.


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

I find it so interesting. If you lose it and smack your neighbor, grocery clerk, or bank tellar you would be arrested, but hey when it's someone having a bad day and smacking someone MUCH smaller, less powerful, and who dependes upon you to eat and have shelter, well then heyyyyyyy it's just fine, poor parent having a bad day. It sickens me to hear all the condoning going on.


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

This is such a difficult issue for those of us who feel passionate about gentle discipline. I have heard of and seen horrific things being done to children. I was in a playgroup for a short period of time before I found out that some were using rods on their babies--starting at eight months! I heard spanking and extreme verbal abuse of a toddler in a restroom stall adjacent to me when I was a teenager. Most of us see things that we would consider abuse often.

As a teacher, I did not see much benefit from CPS referrals. There were some cases that seemed cut and dried that weren't even investigated until I got other people to make referrals.

So what do we do?

What constructive things can we do to honor and protect a child when we don't think that the CPS route will be beneficial?

I'm not against trying CPS, but feel like there should be other courses of action.

Obviously modeling, educating, teaching about age appropriate behavior, but what else?

I never feel like I am doing enough.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bleurae*
I find it so interesting. If you lose it and smack your neighbor, grocery clerk, or bank tellar you would be arrested, but hey when it's someone having a bad day and smacking someone MUCH smaller, less powerful, and who dependes upon you to eat and have shelter, well then heyyyyyyy it's just fine, poor parent having a bad day. It sickens me to hear all the condoning going on.

I dont think anyone is necessarily condoing spanking here....it's just understanding that sending a family through cps HELL may not be warranted since spanking is still legal ..let me clarify.....I DONT BELIEVE IN SPANKING FOR ANY REASON....however, I dont think a mom who spanks her child is abusing their child and therefore should have their child taken away........hope that made sense......


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

While I appreciate what you said, and I understand what a horrific and disfunctional entity CPS can be I should clarify that I BELIEVE SPANKING OF ANY KIND IS ABUSE. I also think the same laws for adults with regards to assault and battery should be upheld for children. Maybe then people would think twice before doing it to their children.


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bleurae*
I find it so interesting. If you lose it and smack your neighbor, grocery clerk, or bank tellar you would be arrested, but hey when it's someone having a bad day and smacking someone MUCH smaller, less powerful, and who dependes upon you to eat and have shelter, well then heyyyyyyy it's just fine, poor parent having a bad day. It sickens me to hear all the condoning going on.

No one is condoning hitting kids, but it is MORE dangerous to the kids to be taken away and put into foster care if they are not suffering serious abuse. If spanking were illegal, it would be a different story, but it's not. There is general social acceptance of spanking so people continue doing it. Calling CPS to teach them a lesson is going to hurt their kids by threatening their security.

There's a lot of high horsery that goes on here, but we don't live in a utopia. You ahve to be realistic about what is really going to bring about change. Calling CPS is going to overburden them so they don't have time to deal with abuse cases they can legally do something about. Even if they remove the kids from the home for spanking, the law backs the parents up and we have terrified the kid, stressed out the parent, and put a heavier burden on a government system that is already stretched beyond the max.

I really don't hope you are advocating calling CPS on anyone who spanks.

In general you'll find there is agreement here on the fact that spanking is abusive, but it is not something CPS can deal with. Constant yelling is abusive too, but it is not legal abuse and only in very extreme cases can CPS do anything about it. Why would you call CPS when you could try to make a positive change in someone's life instead?


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bleurae*
While I appreciate what you said, and I understand what a horrific and disfunctional entity CPS can be I should clarify that I BELIEVE SPANKING OF ANY KIND IS ABUSE. I also think the same laws for adults with regards to assault and battery should be upheld for children. Maybe then people would think twice before doing it to their children.

Well instead of calling CPS or being snarky on a message board you could call people and network to get a petition circulated to get an antispanking initiative on the ballot in your state. Obviously you feel passionately about it. I think that's great. Can you channel your energy into change? I feel like you are projecting your anger on us about the fact people in society at large accept the idea that parents have a right to hit their kids.


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## herwitsend (Nov 10, 2005)

just a curiosity question... i haven't completely resolved the whole spanking thing in my mind, so enlighten me!








how many of you were spanked as a child? did you, as a child, feel like you were being abused? do you, as an adult, feel like you were abused?
i was only ever spanked for 2 kinds of things, lying, and something deadly dangerous (disobeying my mom and running across the grocery store parking lot instead of standing still next to the car like she instructed me to do) i never felt abused. i dont feel abused now. if i had been taken from my very strong loving family it would have destroyed us.
my husband is the product of a nasty divorce and remarriage. he carries around huge emotional scars from that. it was a very traumatic and verbally abusive home, and it is to this day. nobody would have ever thought to call CPS on his parents and step parents, but his family was abusive, and mine was not. in the grocery store, his family looked like the picture of perfection, i'm sure. in the grocery store, my mom looked like a woman who "hits" her kids, but really was making sure that i didn't forget that obedience is for my protection. funny, i still vividly remember that lesson she taught me that day, and i don't remember any of the reasons why i was ever in time out.
i can't help but think that while spanking is not appropriate under most circumstances, i hope that if i am in that situation, some "enlightened" mom wouldnt think it her duty to have my child removed from my loving home and put with some person who makes a living off of their foster children's checks. yes, those kind of people exist!


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

You bring up some important points, herwitsend. I think that some people who were spanked say that they didn't necessarily feel traumatized by it, and that's why they choose to spank.

I was not spanked myself, but my brother was. Many of my own views on spanking come from that experience. It is the reason why gentle discipline is so important to me. While I do think that any form of hitting is abuse, I can understand where you are coming from. I would ask you to consider whether another parenting approach would have had the same effect without the risks of spanking. There is a substantial body of literature on spanking, and while some dispute the negative effects of spanking, citing that they are a result of abusive situations and so on, no one is really saying that it's better, especially long-term.

I wish you luck with the soul searching. Like with many parenting situations, I think your intuition can be a great guide. I think so many choices (CIO, spanking, schedule feeding, etc.) are a by product of distancing ourselves from our children and our instincts.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

i can't help but think that while spanking is not appropriate under most circumstances, i hope that if i am in that situation, some "enlightened" mom wouldnt think it her duty to have my child removed from my loving home and put with some person who makes a living off of their foster children's checks. yes, those kind of people exist!
There are several leaps of logic and a few stereotypes in your post.

For me, it's not a matter of whether spanking is abusive. I've found that making *spanking* the focus obscures the real issue. If you make spanking the focus with people who believe in it, they often dismiss you as a radical and/or permissive parent. If you make "not spanking" the focus, you fail to build the skills necessary to parent effectively.

Discipline needs to be about more than "spanking" or "not spanking". A home with excellent disicpline has several common key elements.

They punish infrequently, if at all.
They have a good understanding of age expected behavior.
They coach, teach, offer another chance, redirect and engage *with* the child to make sure the rules are followed.
They stand on the same side as the child; not on the other end of a tug of war.
Love, affection and playfulness are present in abundance.

I've seen homes that reserve punishment as an option that fit the above criteria. I've seen homes that do not punish that do not.

You might be interested in my link about safety discipline:

http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positiv...nter/id33.html

Comparing the rare spankings you got as a child to an emotionally immature, dysfunctional divorce is a straw man.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

How anyone can read this thread and take away from it that anyone is "condoning" spanking is beyond me. Acknowledging the CPS reality and the mistakes some otherwise good parents make is NOT condoning it. I think that spanking and yelling are abusive too, but not at the same level as other physical abuse. I was spanked. If you want to call that abusive, that's fine. Or unethical, or whatever. That's just semantics. It's still not the same as using rods and sticks and beating the crap out of a kid for perceived offenses, and I wouldn't go so far as to categorize what I dealt with as the same thing as kids suffering serious, painful, physical abuse. It wouldn't be fair to true victims nor to my parents. Beyond acknowledging that hitting anyone is indeed wrong, there's still a lot of grey area, and while that makes things more complicated, it does no one favors to pretend it's all black and white.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I was spanked, and I don't feel abused in any way, and I didn't then, either. It was very rare, and certainly wasn't the centerpiece of my mom's style of discipline. Criminalizing spanking scares me. That would have meant I could have been taken away from my mother, because she gave me a couple of spankings and someone was being nosy. (We also ran around naked a lot, because she believed that kids should be allowed to be naked if they wanted to be. That would have also counted against her, as I discovered because I had a war about this with my former neighbour, who worked for Social Services.) I don't remember any unhappiness at home in my childhood. I look back on my homelife as idyllic. We went to the park every day. We helped mom bake cookies and played in the yard while she gardened. We had our own room, but we crawled in with mom and dad whenever we felt like it (nightmares, woke up early, whatever). Mom never missed a school play or Brownie (junior Girl Guides) event or anything like that, and dad only did if it was month-end. I absolutely loved my homelife in childhood. The idea that someone would/could have "reported" my mom and had her arrested and/or us taken to live with strangers, because they didn't like her approach to discipline scares me to death.

Okay - so we make spanking illegal...then what? What measures do you take to enforce it? Fines would often just mean additional financial stress on a household that was already in trouble. Arresting a parent? If a parent is occasionally spanking their child, do you really believe that kid is better off watching the police come and take their much-beloved mom or dad away in cuffs?

I have to admit to having lost my cool a few times with ds1. When my first marriage was falling apart, I was under a tremendous amount of stress, from the marriage, from my job, from our near-poverty standard of living, from my physical health being shot...I had headaches every day and was on the verge of hospitalization with illnesses for over three months. I was the only one looking after our son. And, I did smack him on the hand a couple of times when I absolutely shouldn't have. I couldn't cope with the 24/7 work involved in looking after him, and I couldn't cope with the additional frustrations involved when you're dealing with a child...a refusal to put his socks on for school, or an announcement that a homework assignment was due tomorrow would just about put me over the edge. I'm not proud of having hit him...not at all. But, I did address the issues - I made it clear to my son that it was NOT his fault and I got out of the marriage and the job that were destroying me, my health and my relationship with my son. If, during that time, someone had called the police and/or Social Services, what benefit would there have been to my son? I was doing my best at the time and it wasn't good enough. Would putting me in jail or adding to our financial burden with a fine have done _anything_ for my son's quality of life? Would having a social worker come in and tell us that our house wasn't up to standard (this was one of the things my ex and I were fighting about...constantly) when I already knew it and was too sick to deal with it have accomplished anything?

I guess I see it differently than some people. I choose not to spank my kids at this point, but I'm really divided within myself as to whether or not it constitutes abuse. I don't feel that my mom abused me in the slightest. I do feel that I abused ds1 a couple of times. And, I absolutely believe that getting Social Services involved would have been the _worst_ thing anybody could have done.

I wish I had answers, but I don't. I just don't trust Social Services...


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## herwitsend (Nov 10, 2005)

_Discipline needs to be about more than "spanking" or "not spanking". A home with excellent disicpline has several common key elements.

They punish infrequently, if at all.
They have a good understanding of age expected behavior.
They coach, teach, offer another chance, redirect and engage *with* the child to make sure the rules are followed.
They stand on the same side as the child; not on the other end of a tug of war.
Love, affection and playfulness are present in abundance._

i absolutely agree. any form of discipline has to have at its core the goal of raising a child that is a thinking, effective, contributing member of the community. discipline that doesn't address the "heart" of the child's behavior, or help the child understand what the choices are (and how to make the right choice) is going to be ineffective. it should never be about "punishment". the issue is training a child how to make good choices.

_If you lose it and smack your neighbor, grocery clerk, or bank tellar you would be arrested, but hey when it's someone having a bad day and smacking someone MUCH smaller, less powerful, and who dependes upon you to eat and have shelter, well then heyyyyyyy it's just fine, poor parent having a bad day._

i hope that for anyone who chooses to spank their children, it's never about mama having a bad day! that is a ridiculous way to explain away a behavior. i would dare to say that alot of violence and abuse pours out of a bad day! the bottom line is, you are the adult, grow up. accept the responsibility. if you chose to spank, make the decision, and don't apologize. but certainly don't blame it on a rough day!

i think, however, that we've gotten away from the purpose of the thread. is it my responsibility to report spanking parents to CPS? i don't believe it is.

HappyHSer:
i liked your link about safety discipline alot. many of those things are proactive things that alot parents don't bother with. many don't have the time or patience (or whatever they are blaming it on). i think that it is of utmost importance though!

while i haven't completely made up my mind about gd, i agree that the goal is training, not punishment!


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

Can I just come out and say that I feel like spanking is not ALWAYS abusive. I was spanked as a child, dh was, most friends were, and many of us had very enlightened, loving, nuturing parents. I was never spanked in public. It was horrible and humiliating to be spanked and I know I will never spank my children. It was not child abuse though, as in something that needs to be reported.
Since CPS seems to put children in dangerous situations I would say that one should suspect that a child is in serious danger before reporting a family. Can you even tell that from a one time encounter with someone?
It breaks my heart to think of the conditions, neglect and abuse some children have to live with. Though I think spanking is a disturbing way to discipline, it is no reason to report someone.


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
We should totally be tracking some posters here and report the ones who tearfully come and admit that they lost control.

Are you serious?!?

I believe there is a big difference between someone who loses it, knows it's wrong, and tries/wants to do better, and someone who is consistently abusive/neglectful without caring.

The former I would try to help; the latter I would report. Many formerly abused children try very hard to do better for their kids, and the threat of being reported to CPS can keep them from asking for the help they need.

IMO, spanking/hitting and yelling are abuse, but are not enough to justify calling CPS. Children love their parents no matter what, and the harm that may come from removing them (even given ideal foster situations, which are few and far between) must be considered.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

No, I was being facetious, as I thought the rest of my post indicated. I was trying to point out that many parents who "lose" it are parents who post here and are, as you say, really really trying to learn from their mistakes.


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
No, I was being facetious, as I thought the rest of my post indicated. I was trying to point out that many parents who "lose" it are parents who post here and are, as you say, really really trying to learn from their mistakes.

Oh, thank goodness. It did seem a bit extreme, but I wasn't completely sure.


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## sweetpeace (Nov 11, 2005)

I know I am new and already not many of you like me....but because I was under the impression that I wasn't allowed to express anything that is not anti-spanking...I totally agree with *everything* HappyHSer has said!!!









OH and If I could quote certain phrases I would...but I don't konw how!!!


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

Mama Mia,
I think you have read into my post things which aren't there. I am not spewing anger and rage as you seem to think. I was not being snarky in any way. I was speaking my beliefs, calmly, yet passionately.
I have worked towards equal rights for minors initiatives. In the medium of online things can be read with mis-interpreted tone which is a common hazard. I just wanted to clarify that I believe it is abuse. Always.
As to the other question. I was spanked my entire childhood, I was abused, I saw my parents lose it on me constantly, and I felt un-loved, I felt hated, I felt all the feelings that go with feeling abused without ever labeling it that because the idea that they would abuse me hurt to deeply to take in. As an adult I feel they were severely abusive, and am horrified at the things they did to me. Horrified.


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## Mommy!Mommy!Mommy! (Sep 15, 2005)

I know it's just probably ignorance and lack of patience that makes this home difficult for this little girl. It breaks my heart to hear this stuff go on, her crying late at night because they are to lazy to put her to bed,

But I know this little girl probably feels unloved sometimes, but this is her _family_.

I haven't read all the posts so if I repeat, sorry. I understand what you are saying and have a "few" similar experiences since my DC have come into the world. For me, the best course of action had been to find small ways to be friendly to the child/children. If she's ever outside when your playing or reading with your kidlets, a hello or wave. Let her see how you and your DC interact. Let her witness and maybe recieve "positiveness". Obviously, you would want to ensure she keeps her "streetsmarts" about her (strangers) by not allowing her to come over etc. unless you hear it from the parent. Unfortunately, neglected children are fodder for predators as they are desperate for attention and affirmation.

when my oldest DS was a toddler I used to bring all kinds of books to the laundry room to read to him while doing the laundry. One of the families in our building has a Mother who is a loud abrasive woman, made worse by her drunking, which is often. (there were times when I wanted to jump on her with a muzzle!!) The ten year old daughter used to come and do the laundry and also watch her two sisters (6 & 2). We would all sit down and read together and chat. They had never been read to. I think we all enjoyed those days. Now years later that 2 yr old is a reading buddy for one of my 4 yr olds! When the oldest girl was about 13 she was heading for some real trouble. I happened to see her out one night and we sat down on a bench and talked about our similiar backgrounds, it was a good talk. Years later she is doing very well, lifeguard working her way through 1st yr college, respectful of herself and so much nicer. Three wks ago, she told me that growing up she always wished she could have been in our family (heart breaking). The times we had spent together gave her an example of a life she could create for herself and her sisters too. It gave her hope that her life didn't have to be only "that". I have to say, I will remember that conversation forever. You never know how your going to affect someone's live by reaching out just a little and just being you.
sorry for the loooong post


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## Mommy!Mommy!Mommy! (Sep 15, 2005)

okay this one will be shorter

DS age 4 is "spirited" to the extreme at times. Today he had a huge meltdown in front of the school. All the families standing around could not take there eyes off him (such fun) After about 15 mins. I told him if he would not walk I would have to pick him up to go home. ...So, after the 1,2,3 didn't work, I calmly picked him up, tucked him under one arm, held his sisters hand and proceeded to leave. Yes it got worse from there. Details are not nec. as I'm sure it's happened to most everyone. After about 45 minutes of non stop, I lost my patience and raised my voice to tell him not to slap me (he was getting a requested hug) when who should appear but the resident self appointed "child advocate". She proceeded to tell me what I was doing wrong etc. and then.."it's abuse to raise your voice to a child" This woman was investigated by CAS a few years back and has taken it upon herself to report three other families in this building resulting in investigations and counter calls etc. Result, we are the cry wolf building. These people are dangerous, inflated with false power, clogging up a already over burdened underfunded agency that does miss terrible abuse because it's manpower is wasted on crap like this. So, we will see if she calls on me or if it was just a "threat" to let me know she's watching me.... I hope someone is monitoring her.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Doesn't she know that children have meltdowns? Sure, harsh parenting, high expectations, and a slew of bad parenting practicies can increase frustrations and tantrums, but they're sitll a normal thing for kids of a certain age, no matter how super the parents are. It just floors me how much people still look down on tantrums in pulic, as if they are copletely preventable. It's a total lackof undertanding of what kids are capable of. Both times my son had a public tantrum I was extremely calm and removed him promptly and gently. (Something about him being totally out of control sends me into this totally-in-control, shamanic calm that I can't always reach otherwise.







) The first time people just STARED and anothe time, the librarian who helped me was sayng "will you be OK?" I guess she was just being considerate, but it sort of perplexed me since I was totally calm and successfully getting him into the car by calming him down and letting him hold the keys, etc. Sort of off-topic, sorry, but I thought it relevant because so many people seem to judge tantrums as bad parenting, like it sounds this woman was. I've heard AP moms brag about how their kid NEVER has tantrums, and so on.

And I love your name/handle, MommyMommyMommy!


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## Mommy!Mommy!Mommy! (Sep 15, 2005)

thanks for the understanding words Hazelnut! I know that "calm" you are talking about!


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

These threads make me so upset. Having volunteered in the world of state run foster care, the only time that is a better option is if the child is REALLY being abused, not yellled at once in a while, or spanked (not beaten) when s/he has done something wrong. I can tell you that these poor children are heartbroken because they are NOT with their families, no matter how bad it was and they are SO lonely. Have you ever walked into a place where babies go for shelter? it's full of crying sad lonely babies and it is utterly heartwrenching.

Now, I DO think it's our social and moral responsibility to stand up for children who are being abused - like the mother stripping her children at the end of a pier before she tossed them in the water - people SAW her stripping her children - why would you not say something then? I have only called 911 on someone once and it was a man who was driving a car and PUNCHING his son in the head while he was driving - I called 911 and followed them. I have also called CPS once when my friend told me her dad was molesting them and he travelled all the time and her mom popped pills to sleep all day. THe house was an utterly disgusting filthy dump and the kids lived on cereal. To this day though, the girl who was my friend never forgave me after she and her sisters and brothers were ripped apart - she was the one who took "care" of them - there were five of them. DId that warrent a call to CPS? yes. But was it MY place to rip sisters and brothers apart - were they better off? it's still a question I struggle with.

Think long and hard about being the parent police. Yes, we see things that break our hearts, but is it really abuse? Lord knows I have lost my patience with DD in public and yelled at her, threw her over my shoulder and stormed out of a store, slammed the car door in her face - but these are not regular occurences but to the perfect parent who may witness these moments of ugliness am I being labeled a child abuser???

The thought makes me cringe. Maybe all an angry mom or dad needs, rather than your criticism and judgement is someone to lovingly come over and ask if they are all right. It only takes a dash of love to put out a fire of anger. I've done that too - a woman was YELLING at her baby while she shopped - the baby was crying and she kept yelling at it to shut up, stop it, etc etc. I found her and asked it she was OK and she told me to mind my business - but she stopped yelling at the baby and FINALLY picked it up. Sometimes when you are angry and frustrated that's all you can see.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Maybe all an angry mom or dad needs, rather than your criticism and judgement is someone to lovingly come over and ask if they are all right. It only takes a dash of love to put out a fire of anger. I
I started my anti-spanking crusade very hostile and verbal. I have said something to parents who spanked. I even talked through my kids "I'm glad we don't hit in OUR family."
















A few years ago, I started reaching out in empathy to the parent. "I remember having 3 under 5. It's hard." or "I've had days like that" or "Stores like this are hard, aren't they" or "Can I unload your cart for you while you pick up the baby?" Instead of judgement, I offer understanding. I've seen more parents melt and soften. Some get more anxious, but non react with anger or hostility.

I don't believe in punishment (and I'm not going to argue about whether related logical consequences for school aged kids are punishment). But, having had *moments* in my parenting where I have fallen short of my ideal, I'm not going to judge the whole of another person's parenting based on an interaction I observe at Wal Mart.


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

Happy Hser, I think your suggestions are terrific, especially for those of us who want concrete, gentle ways to encourage a mom without judgment.

I agree with you, Luckylady. I think that most of us here can understand the powerful love a child has for his or her family. I think sometimes people consider CPS a way to have the parent be monitored but don't wish for the child to be removed. I do think this can backfire.

I also think that making a baby cry-it-out is abusive, but obviously that isn't something that CPS can help with.

I think that many of us here have tender hearts and wish there were an easy way to give all kids loving, nurturing parenting.


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## Arolinecay (May 4, 2004)

I always join these things late but here goes...

What an incredible topic. I am soooo appreciative of the words in here from the wonderful but less-than-perfect-moms who are doing the best they can and doing great.
The judgemental tones...i'm highly suspicious of.

A former friend has threatened several times to call CPS on me. She even emailed my husband at work. We were in a playgroup together. THe other moms came unhesitatingly and supportively to my side and were shocked by the other mom who lashed out angrily at all of us. These are moms who have seen me and my ds every week for 2 1/2 years.

My crime? I got worn down and worn out and started losing my cool with my ds. I was depressed and sought help from everyone I knew, including former friend. I was tandem nursing, incredibly sleep deprived + other things and down the slippery slope I went. At first awareness of this I started talking and seeking help. From family, friends, moms. I searched for a therapist. I talked to this friend and used words like "abusive" and "harsh" and "too rough." I used those words because I believe much of Alfie Cohen's Unconditional Parenting and how I was being was unacceptable to me. The point is, I owned it and sought help immediately. But I would not fall under the clinical definition of "abusive." I was a "misdemeanor" offender and not a "felony" offender.

My ds used to play rough sometimes with friend's son and hit occasionally. That was never ever OK with me and we were working on it. (Imagine! A 2 year old hitting!) He also hit long before I ever started disintegrating.

Her son started hitting her and having nightmares. Playing rough with his dolls etc. and she was furious that I wouldn't say it was because my son was hitting him. (They also played really well together and had great affection for one another 75% of the time.)

I think she wanted an easy scapegoat for the troubles she was having with her kid and I just wasn't going to own it. I owned what I owned--but my son was not a disturbed kid who was the reason her son was having so much trouble. (really, typical 2-3 yr old stuff but she couldn't abide it.)

I'm in therapy now. He sometimes goes with me b/c I don't have a sitter and therapist gives complete thumbs up.

I never responded to x-friend's claims because she just got too scary sounding and I didn't want to engaged with her so perhaps that is why I am bla bla blaing here. I'm finally getting a chance to defend myself.

Threatening or calling CPS is just so terrible for a mother. My heart goes out to the moms here who have shared their stories about dealing with the bureaucracy. ANy resonable person can imagine times when it is so right to call.

I'm so appreciative of hearing about how moms were spanked as kids but also felt they came from a loving solid family. I don't believe in spanking at all. Not one bit. I spanked a handful of times over the last 6 months. I've yelled. I've cursed. I've picked up too roughly. I would cut off my limb if that meant I would never do those things again. Really. It kills me.

But I pray its a blip in an otherwise really healthy wonderful relationship and I will do everything I can to make sure it gets processed and ds doesn't feel like he's the reason mommy is so angry sometimes.

In my darkest days I read a thread in here called "I'm scared of me." It was so powerful to be connected to a community of moms who were struggling like me and who could reach out and help each other.


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

Arolinecay, I really admire how you are taking steps to take care of yourself so you can take better care of your ds. It can be so hard when we depart from our ideals. You helped remind me that some of the moms we see in public who are angry and overwhelmed are on the same journey that we are on.


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*
... in the US we live in a culture that has criminalized poverty. If CPS gets involved in a case where there are poverty issues, it is much, much harder to get rid of them when the initial problem is shown to be inocuous.

Bingo!


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herwitsend*
_ /// i hope that for anyone who chooses to spank their children, it's never about mama having a bad day! that is a ridiculous way to explain away a behavior. i would dare to say that alot of violence and abuse pours out of a bad day! the bottom line is, you are the adult, grow up. accept the responsibility. if you chose to spank, make the decision, and don't apologize. but certainly don't blame it on a rough day!
_
_
_
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Eda LeShan is one of my favorite parenting authors - she has such a "don't sweat it" approach, which is sure a tonic in this day and age of "obsess over everything!".







Her thoughts on spanking - It's wrong and it doesn't work so don't do it ... And that she can't imagine why anyone would spank except in anger. That anger could be the only possible excuse - and the only reason that could make sense to a child. Kids lose it too - they've been known to hurt parents









I also just have to say that my relationship with my children is waay more intense than my relationship with the grocery clerk! The grocery clerk has never bitten my nipple, kicked me, hit me or thrown anything at me. They've never come into my house and thrown food around or peed on the couch. To compare hitting a clerk to spanking a child seems a little ... off to me. It just doesn't acknowledge the complexity of parenting. For instance, I know I get a lot of guff from my father because I don't spank. But his words get in - for sure - the creeping doubt! And we are so hard on parents, especially mothers, we have to take some responisbility for making some people feel desperate to control what they, or others, view as bad behavior.

I think it's okay to "blame" a mistake on a rough day. Rough days sap our energy, they wear us down. It's easier to give in to fear and anger - harder to think clearly. The idea that there are no mitigating factors - such as having a "rough day" - that affect our behavior seems rough on people, and it ignores some kind of reality. Do we have a little empathy for our children when they blow it on rough days? Yes! So have some for another parent, for gosh's sake. Yes, we're "grown-ups", but surely you don't expect us to be unshakeable!

The answer to spanking is support. The programs with the best outcomes are supportive programs, like Birth to Three in Eugene, Oregon._


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"I also just have to say that my relationship with my children is waay more intense than my relationship with the grocery clerk! The grocery clerk has never bitten my nipple, kicked me, hit me or thrown anything at me. They've never come into my house and thrown food around or peed on the couch. To compare hitting a clerk to spanking a child seems a little ... off to me. It just doesn't acknowledge the complexity of parenting."

Bingo. My ds and I started out in the same body, and we're slowly working our way apart







We have an constant and intense physical relationship (washing, diapering, dragging him away from hazards, restraining him when he'sd hurting me or others), even though there's been very little corporal punishment (he reached for knives in the diswasher and I smacked his hand). He bit me the other day, and, in a moment of intense pain, I bit him back (not as hard, obviously, but I wouldn't have done it at all if I hadn't lost my cool). A stellar parenting moment? No. Did I see a little "biting HURTS" lightbulb go off over his head? Yes. We are still in the process of learning how to be separate, and while I as the adult have the ultimate responsibility for preventing harm, our physical boundaries are not the same as my boundaries with the grocery clerk. If the grocery store clerk bit me, I would call the cops.


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

Smithie, I can relate to some of your thoughts about the intense relationship. My dd is a toddler right now, and we can have some intense moments, too.









However, if your dc is still little (baby or toddler) I doubt she would have stopped biting because she made the connection that biting hurts. They are just too little to realize that things that hurt them hurt others. More likely, she connected biting you with being bitten--Such as: "Every time I bite someone I feel these sharp teeth on me. I don't want to feel that anymore." Little ones don't have true empathy yet.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"More likely, she connected biting you with being bitten--Such as: "Every time I bite someone I feel these sharp teeth on me. I don't want to feel that anymore." Little ones don't have true empathy yet."

You're probably right. There was definitely some kind of a-ha moment going on there, but it was all about HIM not wanting to get bitten again, not about regretting the fact that he'd bitten ME.









It's hard to live with somebody who hasn't developed empathy yet, esp. when you are ideologically opposed to whacking them. I volunteered at the zoo before ds came along, and while you never see a gorilla hit their child with an implement or damage them the way humans do, I definitely felt like I was planning a sharp deviation from the primate way by not physically correcting my young. And ds (18 mos. old) thinks EXACTLY like a baby gorilla, from all I can see. Sometimes I get through a trying moment by reminding myself that I am dealing with a gorilla and cannot expect him to integrate smoothly into human society until he evolves, and that I can't help him evolve by cuffing him the way a gorilla mama would









I hope this doesn't sound too weird. I really love gorillas and respect them as sentient beings, and don't mean to diminish my ds by comparing him to one. But I also don't want him to grow up acting like one. I want him to act like a non-hitting, empathic human being.


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## Balanced Mama (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
"More likely, she connected biting you with being bitten--Such as: "Every time I bite someone I feel these sharp teeth on me. I don't want to feel that anymore." Little ones don't have true empathy yet."

You're probably right. There was definitely some kind of a-ha moment going on there, but it was all about HIM not wanting to get bitten again, not about regretting the fact that he'd bitten ME.









It's hard to live with somebody who hasn't developed empathy yet, esp. when you are ideologically opposed to whacking them. I volunteered at the zoo before ds came along, and while you never see a gorilla hit their child with an implement or damage them the way humans do, I definitely felt like I was planning a sharp deviation from the primate way by not physically correcting my young. And ds (18 mos. old) thinks EXACTLY like a baby gorilla, from all I can see. Sometimes I get through a trying moment by reminding myself that I am dealing with a gorilla and cannot expect him to integrate smoothly into human society until he evolves, and that I can't help him evolve by cuffing him the way a gorilla mama would









I hope this doesn't sound too weird. I really love gorillas and respect them as sentient beings, and don't mean to diminish my ds by comparing him to one. But I also don't want him to grow up acting like one. I want him to act like a non-hitting, empathic human being.

I think it is hard not to want to correct them sometimes. I struggled with this a bit more with my first child. I worried that if I didn't help him learn good habits when he was little, he would never learn them. I'm still amazed at the difference time can make. The "gorilla" stage will pass, I promise you!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momea*
Eda LeShan is one of my favorite parenting authors - she has such a "don't sweat it" approach, which is sure a tonic in this day and age of "obsess over everything!".







Her thoughts on spanking - It's wrong and it doesn't work so don't do it ... And that she can't imagine why anyone would spank _except_ in anger. That anger could be the only possible excuse - and the only reason that could make sense to a child. Kids lose it too - they've been known to hurt parents









She sounds like an interesting author, I'm gonna google her


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## NathanMom (Mar 13, 2004)

wow-

What a parallel experience you seem to have had to my own on this topic, with just a few exceptions! The person in MY playgroup told me specifically that she had HIT her darling son, more than once, not spanked him, that she had shoved him with significant force, and that she not infrequently tore him down verbally . She also specifically told me that she enjoyed the confrontations she had with him, and egged him on so she could escalate them. A bit more than a spank on a bad day, IMO.

It just seems to me that all of us have bad days and many of us have lots of truly impossibly difficult days with our kids, when just getting to the end of it in one piece feels like an accomplishment. But not very many of us in the Alfie world end up spanking, much less HITTING our kid. Those who do have a problem. Someone who hits her son and who denies that the violence she uses on her kid is affecting how her kid interacts with other kids, IMO, not only has a problem but is harming her own son and the kids who are on the receiving end of his violence, which again, IMO, she has no right to do.

Luckily, in my case, my son was perfectly fine (and relieved) after being removed, finally, from the hitter, who in our case, hit and shoved him virtually him everytime they played together over 2 years, with increasing violence that paralled the abuse by his own mother.

Personally, I seriously considered calling the CPS, and it was a very difficult call for me whether or not to do so. I asked on this board for help on that question, and was advised the system didn't work well enough to help, and likely would cause more harm than good. I didn't call, but I'm not sure I made the right decision.

You sound very straightforward and honest, arolineCay, so I'm sure your circumstances are very different than the ones I'm describing. And I second the pat on your back for getting help with your anger issues! Best of luck!!


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