# Multi-spinoff - Gifts, a sign our culture is "sick"?



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have been on MDC for over six years and I have noticed something that has me questioning some things about our culture. This is more of a "discussion" than a "what should I do?" thread but it does lead me to wonder what I should do







I put this in parenting because I want to discuss this topic specifically as it relates to children and parents.

The thing I have noticed is that every year there seem to be more threads that relate to gifts. And they come earlier and earlier every year. The threads are all over the place:

People worried they cannot buy their kids enough.
People worried about what to do with the "too many" gifts their kids get.
Kids getting the "wrong" kind of gifts from relatives.
Relatives buying gifts to purposely irk parents.
Brag threads that include the long lists of gifts people are getting for their kids.
Arguments about whether it is OK to ask for no/less/small gifts.
Decluttering threads about where to put all the stuff we have.
Arguments about environmental impact
Commercial/consumeristic worries
Threads declaring the giver should have more "rights"
Threads declaring the receiver should have more "rights"
Love languages

I am sure I am missing many other themes here.

I gotta wonder...... Is this a sign that we have gotten altogether too privileged? Does etiquette really trump all else?

Full disclosure - I am one of those people with a tiny house, a loathing of all things Disney/plastic/loud/insert-your-typical-crunchy-gripe, a kid (6.5 yo) who does not know about or care for licensed stuff, an immediate family that is very concerned about environmental impact, worker's rights, and clutter, and a HUGE extended family that loves to dote on the one child in that family (my child).

Before dd was born, it never ever occurred to me that gifting would be an issue. It was a complete surprise. As one children among a sea of cousins, holiday gifting was almost exclusively from my parents and "santa". We maybe got one small gift from one side of grandparents. My parents did go overboard and I felt that way as a child too. Nothing stinks more than overhearing your parents fretting over the cc bill a week after the gift orgy that left you feeling overwhelmed and a little scared. But, I figured, since I am the parent now, there would be no "overboard". I would be able to largely control the amount of stuff in my house, what type of stuff it would be, and what messages my dd would be getting about our values. At least until she was old enough to form her own values and manage her own stuff.

This has been largely true. But only because I have stepped WAY out of my comfort zone and broken many an etiquette rule. And frankly, I am glad I have. Yes, there has been some hurt and yes, there are probably people out there that think I am a jerk. I am OK with that. If you do not know me and my family well enough to respect our values, then I guess you do not know me well enough for me to care if you think I am a jerk







I have no problem writing "no gifts" on invitations. I have no problem sending my mom a list of things that are not OK to give dd as gifts. I am even OK with limiting the number of gifts relatives are "allowed" to give dd. Despite this, I still feel we end up with too much stuff. Way too much.

I have seen it written on here over and over that we should always accept gifts graciously. No matter what. It does not matter if the gift was given specifically to tick off the parents. Or if it is a gift that goes very much against your family's values. Or if there simply is not enough physical space in your house for it. Etc..... Some will then concede that it "might be OK" to rehome it after awhile, leave it at grandma's, say it "broke", etc..... while others say no no NO, the gift was given to the CHILD and it does not matter one bit what impact it might have on your living space, personal peace, values, etc.....

Why?

Now, I know that we here at MDC heavily lean to the crunch. We are likely to give far more thought to things like environmental impact, marketing to kids, brand loyalty, etc..... So, I think most of us would agree that there is simply too much crap being created, wasted, and tossed in our lifestyle. So, why is it not OK to address the gift issue?

People sling the "extremism" word around the minute someone posts that they do not agree with a certain type of toy or that perhaps little Johnny can have a no gift birthday party instead of the family trying to come up with a place for 20 new things that came as gifts from said party. The possibility of a party without loot bags is unfathomable to some on here. It seems that even the most earth-caring people here say we should leave our ideals behind when thinking about gifts.

So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am really not "allowed" to have any control over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?

This is a general discussion. I would love to hear what others think about this. Why it is the way it is and useful ways to navigate our families and children through it so that maybe when our kids are on here in 20 years it won't be such a combative issue.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Well, I have been thinking about this.

DD and I are reading the Laura Ingalls Wilder series right now. In every book there is a Christmas story of some sort, and Laura and Mary get so excited about the presents, which were generally things like: a tin cup, a penny, and a stick of candy; a rag doll and mittens; an apron. The family scrimped and saved to get them, and it was a BIG deal... I mean, the fact that a child would get ONE rag doll at age 8, keep it in a special box in her room until she gets married, and THEN write about it in a book 40 years later-- pretty amazing.

So I don't think that the gift-giving itself is bad, and I think (even in the case of the Ingalls) there is an element of stretching oneself to buy the "best" that one can.... and the more money you have, I suppose, the more of a temptation it is to buy a LOT of stuff.

The frustrating thing (for me) is that we _teach_ our children to want/expect certain things. This year, for example, Dh and I are giving DD a wooden doll cradle from goodwill ($4.50!) and some books from half.com. I was pretty excited about all of these things-- then my (really wonderful) MIL called to tell me that she had purchased some things for DD at Target-- a eureopean style "pram" and a 6 piece set of baby gear (so DD will have three strollers, 2 pak-and-plays, a high chair, three baby carriers [all plastic, of course].... madness!). I feel bad saying "no" to MIL, because I know she gets so much joy out of buying these things for DD--- but *what am I teaching DD*? It seems like I'm teaching her all sorts of lessons I don't agree with: baby care= buying lots of stuff. Love=buying you lots of stuff. Christmas=buying lots of stuff.

But it's hard to break the cycle of giving stuff. My MIL grew up very poor. I know that she is happy to have enough money now to buy my DD lots of nice clothes and toys, and I understand why she feels that way... but it's getting to the point that we DO NOT HAVE SPACE for any of this stuff.

One of my biggest struggles as a parent is trying to make my daughter momentarily happy at her own/our own long term expense. I really think the Christmas gift-giving is a symptom of that.

If it were just me and Dh, it would be a lot easier. Trying to get the doting grandparents on board (and DD is the ONLY grandchild on either side right now) is really tough.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)




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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I think, in general, we are a generation of parents with the idea that we can create the perfect environment for our children and we can control everything and everyone in it and if we do it just right we will produce exactly the results we are hoping for. EVERYTHING is such a big deal. What did your parents do if you had too much stuff? Either they told you to deal with it (keep it in your room, clean out your closet) or they eventually did away with broken things. No big deal. They did not angst endlessly over the perfect list of ideal things (and the number of them) you would be allowed. They did not freak out over getting the right stacking toys at the right time (I myself had this very freak out. Really? A stacking toy? ON NO! Someone bought her a plastic one - my grandmother! We can never get rid of it! But I wanted the wooden chicken from Oompa! Christmas is ruined!).

It's a big subject but I think we have so much information that the end result is parents as control freaks - for all the right reasons, obviously.

There is a consumerist idea, underneath it all, that you can have perfect happiness if you have the right things and what you have says a lot about who you are as an individual. There is control in buying. The anti gift or gift controling is just the other side of that. You can have perfect happiness and the perfect environment if you don't buy all that stuff. The things you don't have (and really, it's also a lot about having the _right_ things and NOT having certain "mainstream" things - like Power Wheels) say a lot about who you are as an individual. There is power in not buying - or just buying exactly the right things.

Essentially, one way or another, we've all been sold the idea that we can have perfect lives and I'm not sure it's true.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

JMHO...

Two words- birth control- have changed the dynamic into a mass frenzy of indulgence. We have more $ resources and fewer people who *need* them. Like you said, you were a cousin among many and gift giving was primarily between immediate family members. I was too- my grandma had to save all year to give each granchild a nominal cash gift each year. Now the next generation, my mom, is the grandma and she has the same budget but instead of 20 grandkids she's got 1 or 2 or 3. And the Christmas Eve celebrations where 20 of us kids were running around eating Christmas cookies and doing the gift exchange (you gave a gift to the person whose name you drew out of a hat) has now become three familes (gps, bro with no kids and us with 1 or 2 kids) and the gift giving easily takes over. Now instead of having 3-4 adults getting gifts for 10-12 kids, we're now in a situation where there's 6 adults getting gifts for 1 child. Plus you factor in how "busy" everyone is and as a society we have been conditioned to think we show love by gifts. So harried grandparents are more likely to buy toys to show the grandkids how much they love them rather than spending a whole day baking cookies or going fishing.

Over time, as a society that has only one or two kids we direct more of our resources towards those kids and again it mushrooms. Ask some moms of many how many elaborate birthday parties at Chuck e. cheese or the American girl cafe they have (look at the Duggars) and you'll be hard pressed to find them because once you have more than 1 or 2 kids you just cannot do it or your life would be ruled by birthday party planning. Moms to many limit the number of gifts their kids can ask for (just like I'm sure many who don't have many do as well) but when it comes to the grandparents it becomes necessary for them to limit as well. If I have five kids and the gp's spend $125/child that adds up quickly! Many moms of many ask gp's for a family gift, one thing to be enjoyed by all.

I agree the gift giving has gotten way out of hand, but I do think etiquette still trumps.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
This has been largely true. But only because I have stepped WAY out of my comfort zone and broken many an etiquette rule. And frankly, I am glad I have. Yes, there has been some hurt and yes, there are probably people out there that think I am a jerk. I am OK with that. If you do not know me and my family well enough to respect our values, then I guess you do not know me well enough for me to care if you think I am a jerk







I have no problem writing "no gifts" on invitations. I have no problem sending my mom a list of things that are not OK to give dd as gifts. I am even OK with limiting the number of gifts relatives are "allowed" to give dd. Despite this, I still feel we end up with too much stuff. Way too much.

My thing is this... if you say your family is close enough and share similar values, why do you _need_ to send a list of unaproved gifts?

My family doesn't all have the same philosophy about "stuff", especially about character branding, but it would never occur to me send out a list of stuff they can NOT buy for their grand daughter/niece. For this issue it's about respect. They know how we live and they respect that. Last year they all went together and ordered DD and wooden play kitchen off the internet without any involvement on my part. The idea of them buying something to spite me is completely foreign.

SO, having said that... my idea of someone being a gracious gift receiver is based on the notion that the gifts they receive will be pretty well thought out and if not the infraction would so small that it's not worth the upset.

And then I think of my sister and her inlaws, who really are nasty people. They would be the type of people to buy things to spite her or just compltely disrespect their wishes. But then I think.. if I were in her position, I wouldn't be giving these people the opportunity to give my kid a gift in the first place. I don't want to spend the holidays to with nasty people who don't respect me, let alone let them passively aggressively gift stuff to my kid.

But it's not that simple, I realize.

But I wonder what a kid walks away learning when gifts are not appropriate and they're giving away/sold/put in storage?

I'll put it this way. If my inlaws were passive aggressive and they gave DD something that I didn't think was ideal, she could keep it. At 3 years old I wouldn't want her to internalize why the gift was not kept. I wouldn't want her to think that throwing stuff away when we don't want it is Ok. I don't screen gifts and I wouldn't hide it when she was asleep, so yes, she would know something happened to it.

If you got a plastic coffee mug at a work christmas party, would say you didn't want it and tell the person you prefer stainless steel? No, you would probably graciously accept it. Perhaps give it away to someone, or store it away as a back up. So when it comes to kids, why are we so ready to stand up and say "That's Not Appropriate!"?.

And I think birthday parties are a totally different kettle of fish. For one, we don't do the whole kid party thing. We have family and close friend get togethers that really aren't about gifts. I don't ever see us having parties like that, but if I did, they would say no gifts. Many people often get cheap gifts for kids birthday parties just to save face and they're not about picking out the Perfect Gift. But if we did, we would accept them.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think, in general, we are a generation of parents with the idea that we can create the perfect environment for our children and we can control everything and everyone in it and if we do it just right we will produce exactly the results we are hoping for. EVERYTHING is such a big deal. What did your parents do if you had too much stuff? Either they told you to deal with it (keep it in your room, clean out your closet) or they eventually did away with broken things. No big deal. They did not angst endlessly over the perfect list of ideal things (and the number of them) you would be allowed. They did not freak out over getting the right stacking toys at the right time (I myself had this very freak out. Really? A stacking toy? ON NO! Someone bought her a plastic one - my grandmother! We can never get rid of it! But I wanted the wooden chicken from Oompa! Christmas is ruined!).

It's a big subject but I think we have so much information that the end result is parents as control freaks - for all the right reasons, obviously.

There is a consumerist idea, underneath it all, that you can have perfect happiness if you have the right things and what you have says a lot about who you are as an individual. There is control in buying. The anti gift or gift controling is just the other side of that. You can have perfect happiness and the perfect environment if you don't buy all that stuff. The things you don't have (and really, it's also a lot about having the _right_ things and NOT having certain "mainstream" things - like Power Wheels) say a lot about who you are as an individual. There is power in not buying - or just buying exactly the right things.

Essentially, one way or another, we've all been sold the idea that we can have perfect lives and I'm not sure it's true.

Interesting point of view. I can see where this was definitely a factor when dd was a baby. People trying to offload loads of baby gear that did not fit into my ideal. I did not think I wanted all of it. Turns out some of it (very little, but indeed some) was useful and I was glad to have it. Sadly, much of it ended up sitting unused and did not have much reuse value as the colors/style/opinions on it changes so fast.

But to defend myself a little here, there is the "ideal" of what I would like dd to have for playthings and reality. Because she gets so much stuff as gifts, I rarely buy her anything and therefore we take what we get. My main "ideal" here is to have the stuff FIT into her room. Sure, my parents told me to manage my own stuff. Which is how I ended up with an embarrassingly stuffed room, a lifetime battle with clutter, and extreme guilt over getting rid of cherished gifts. Not really helpful. Not to mention, my parent's house was roughly 3 times the square footage. There was simply more space for everything.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
JMHO...

Two words- birth control- have changed the dynamic into a mass frenzy of indulgence. We have more $ resources and fewer people who *need* them. Like you said, you were a cousin among many and gift giving was primarily between immediate family members. I was too- my grandma had to save all year to give each granchild a nominal cash gift each year. Now the next generation, my mom, is the grandma and she has the same budget but instead of 20 grandkids she's got 1 or 2 or 3. And the Christmas Eve celebrations where 20 of us kids were running around eating Christmas cookies and doing the gift exchange (you gave a gift to the person whose name you drew out of a hat) has now become three familes (gps, bro with no kids and us with 1 or 2 kids) and the gift giving easily takes over. Now instead of having 3-4 adults getting gifts for 10-12 kids, we're now in a situation where there's 6 adults getting gifts for 1 child. Plus you factor in how "busy" everyone is and as a society we have been conditioned to think we show love by gifts. So harried grandparents are more likely to buy toys to show the grandkids how much they love them rather than spending a whole day baking cookies or going fishing.

Over time, as a society that has only one or two kids we direct more of our resources towards those kids and again it mushrooms. Ask some moms of many how many elaborate birthday parties at Chuck e. cheese or the American girl cafe they have (look at the Duggars) and you'll be hard pressed to find them because once you have more than 1 or 2 kids you just cannot do it or your life would be ruled by birthday party planning. Moms to many limit the number of gifts their kids can ask for (just like I'm sure many who don't have many do as well) but when it comes to the grandparents it becomes necessary for them to limit as well. If I have five kids and the gp's spend $125/child that adds up quickly! Many moms of many ask gp's for a family gift, one thing to be enjoyed by all.

I agree the gift giving has gotten way out of hand, but I do think etiquette still trumps.

This is very interesting! I think this might be true for a lot of people!


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Just a quick reply because I have to run, but would like to chat more about this.

Speaking for myself, we are surrounded by family who definitely think more is better. My parents weren't like this - I am mostly referring to extended family. Quality is not an issue, the extended family thinks Costco and WalMart are gifts from above.

OTOH, I do realize that I come from a place of privilege. I never thought so since we grew up lower income, but have recently opened my eyes to the fact that I still have advantages others do not.

But I still probably spend less on Christmas than many other, buying only a couple quality toys from the local store, than a whole cartful from a megastore.

It is a constant struggle for us, and I often feel we are in the minority with our way of thinking.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I gotta wonder...... Is this a sign that we have gotten altogether too privileged?

Wondering whether we have gotten too priviledged is another _symptom_ to add to your list of "Is Our Culture Sick?"

Its kind of like nudity and sex. If people were completely healthy about it - if it was accepted as natural and good, if people didn't blush or make jokes to cover up their embarrassment of even accidentally seeing animals procreating, if nobody blinked an eye if half the world was naked during the summer, we'd be a lot healthier. It is this belief that something is wrong with sex, or that we need to place artificial boundaries around it to keep it contained and make it acceptable, that has made our culture so unhealthy around sex, and led to pathology around sex.

The secret belief that maybe we really don't deserve what we want, and the twisted ways we try to keep from feeling that very sad belief are what has created rampant consumerism and the backlash to rampant consumerism - which is the idea that somehow you are more holy and righteous if you choose a minimalist's life. Its fun to give and fun to receive, period. If people felt really and truly that they deserved everything good and that everyone else deserved everything good, we'd be way more relaxed and healthy around gift giving. Entitlement isn't our problem - the opposite is the real problem.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

It's really odd to me how early these threads come now. We barely get through the Halloween candy threads and the Christmas gifts threads start.









For us, we've always been pretty mellow about what the kids played with. We lean more towards "non-cohervise parenting" than "natural family living", so while I understand the issues with plastic toys, etc. it's more important to me that my kids make their own choices. I have a hard time relating to some of the toys that people get upset about -- things that are open ended and can provide years of creative play -- yet are made of plastic.

When my kids were small, though, my mother would go buy them so so much stuff. It was the quantity. She would buy them enough new things that if they didn't already have any toys, they would be set. It struck me one year that if our house had burned down and we needed to start all over, the amount of toys that my mother bought would have been about perfect.









My Dh and I finally set some boundaries. Our rule is only one toy, but clothes, savings bonds, books, etc are fine.

I agree that birth control is partly to blame. Besides the fact that there are only a few children in my family, I didn't have kids until my 30s. By the time my mom got to buy them Christmas presents, she was making up for a decade of wanting to be a grandmother and not getting to because I was doing other things.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
My thing is this... if you say your family is close enough and share similar values, why do you _need_ to send a list of unaproved gifts?

My family doesn't all have the same philosophy about "stuff", especially about character branding, but it would never occur to me send out a list of stuff they can NOT buy for their grand daughter/niece. For this issue it's about respect. They know how we live and they respect that. Last year they all went together and ordered DD and wooden play kitchen off the internet without any involvement on my part. The idea of them buying something to spite me is completely foreign.

SO, having said that... my idea of someone being a gracious gift receiver is based on the notion that the gifts they receive will be pretty well thought out and if not the infraction would so small that it's not worth the upset.

And then I think of my sister and her inlaws, who really are nasty people. They would be the type of people to buy things to spite her or just compltely disrespect their wishes. But then I think.. if I were in her position, I wouldn't be giving these people the opportunity to give my kid a gift in the first place. I don't want to spend the holidays to with nasty people who don't respect me, let alone let them passively aggressively gift stuff to my kid.

But it's not that simple, I realize.

But I wonder what a kid walks away learning when gifts are not appropriate and they're giving away/sold/put in storage?

I'll put it this way. If my inlaws were passive aggressive and they gave DD something that I didn't think was ideal, she could keep it. At 3 years old I wouldn't want her to internalize why the gift was not kept. I wouldn't want her to think that throwing stuff away when we don't want it is Ok. I don't screen gifts and I wouldn't hide it when she was asleep, so yes, she would know something happened to it.

If you got a plastic coffee mug at a work christmas party, would say you didn't want it and tell the person you prefer stainless steel? No, you would probably graciously accept it. Perhaps give it away to someone, or store it away as a back up. So when it comes to kids, why are we so ready to stand up and say "That's Not Appropriate!"?.

And I think birthday parties are a totally different kettle of fish. For one, we don't do the whole kid party thing. We have family and close friend get togethers that really aren't about gifts. I don't ever see us having parties like that, but if I did, they would say no gifts. Many people often get cheap gifts for kids birthday parties just to save face and they're not about picking out the Perfect Gift. But if we did, we would accept them.

In our case it is far more about quantity than quality. Luckily our friends and dd's friends have much of the same ideals so, we do not have nearly as big of problems as we could. However, my mother, for example, while we obviously love her a great deal and she has the best of intentions, she does not understand our ideals and/or constraints. This would not be a big deal if she sent one gift for each holiday. But dd is her only grandchild and she would buy her 50 gifts (I kis you not) if we did not have discussions about gifting. she also does things like attempts to order HUGE indoor play structures that would not even physically fit in any room of our house. So our "do not buy list" is more like 1. Nothing that cannot fit in dd's room 2. No more baby dolls (because dd has 14 of them, most of which giver to her by MY MOM), Etc..... We are very luckily in that with tactful discussion, my mom does now understand about our stance on environmental impact and commercialization. That is a non-issue at this point.

But really, I am hoping this discussion will be more about the issue as a whole rather than nitpicking my particular views on specific toys or issues surrounding my specific relatives. There are plenty of other currently active threads to have the who-is-ruder-than-who bashfest.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 

The secret belief that maybe we really don't deserve what we want, and the twisted ways we try to keep from feeling that very sad belief are what has created rampant consumerism and the backlash to rampant consumerism - which is the idea that somehow you are more holy and righteous if you choose a minimalist's life. Its fun to give and fun to receive, period. If people felt really and truly that they deserved everything good and that everyone else deserved everything good, we'd be way more relaxed and healthy around gift giving. Entitlement isn't our problem - the opposite is the real problem.

Hmmm.... I find this point interesting and I have never really thought of it that way. I gotta say that receiving is not really that "fun" to me. I have a hard time managing a lot of stuff so the more I have of it, the more stressful my life is. But that could be a byproduct of the feelings you are talking about above.

I know that guilt, entitlement, etc are complicated feelings. I certainly do not like feeling deprived. But I really hate seeing waste which is where a lot of my feelings about gifting comes from. To me, exchanging a bunch of *things* that do not fill any need and to not bring much joy seems very wasteful. Wasteful in money, resources, labor, effort, space, etc...... It seems like if we did not have this gift frenzy situation, the few gifts we did get would be far more cherished and far less wasteful....ala Little House on the Prairie.....


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

No, I don't really think it has anything to do with a sick culture. All of the cultures I've lived in, give children more or fewer gifts depending on what they can afford. Obviously the occasions for gift-giving do differ by culture. There was something I read (by Pinker maybe?) about how "excessive" gift-giving (by the standards of what would be "smart" economically) is one of the universal human traits across cultures. But those things that Laura Ingalls Wilder got for Christmas-- well, first of all, they were in fact a stretch for her family. And second of all, her husband grew up in a much wealthier family, and received more gifts than she did.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 

When my kids were small, though, my mother would go buy them so so much stuff. It was the quantity. She would buy them enough new things that if they didn't already have any toys, they would be set. It struck me one year that if our house had burned down and we needed to start all over, the amount of toys that my mother bought would have been about perfect.










This is exactly our issue. We are also more CL than anything else, so ironically dd is very much involved in these discussions.

While toy type/material is not specifically an issue in our situation, I do feel for parents that do have this problem and do not want to dismiss their concerns in this discussion. It is one thing if your child gets one or two toys you would prefer they not. It is quite another when there are family members that insist on continuing to give gift after gift that goes directly against how a family feels. They might even have "good intentions" often wrapped up in the "I think my grandchild is being deprived" way of thinking. Are parents supposed to suck it up year after year and never discuss it in the name of etiquette?

There is just so much to say and think about. Keep it coming!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
No, I don't really think it has anything to do with a sick culture. All of the cultures I've lived in, give children more or fewer gifts depending on what they can afford. Obviously the occasions for gift-giving do differ by culture. There was something I read (by Pinker maybe?) about how "excessive" gift-giving (by the standards of what would be "smart" economically) is one of the universal human traits across cultures. But those things that Laura Ingalls Wilder got for Christmas-- well, first of all, they were in fact a stretch for her family. And second of all, her husband grew up in a much wealthier family, and received more gifts than she did.

There is "smart" economically and then there is "smart" resource-wise. Is it OK to use far far more than we need at the expense of other people and the environment, in part because gifting is a taboo thing to talk about? At least Almanzo mostly got toys that would biodegrade and did not involve a whole lot of earth-wrecking processing, shipping, and packaging. Many gifts, until recently, were largely made lovingly by the giver. A far cry from how much plastic crap grandma can afford to charge on her credit card.

Giving is a wonderful thing! I love to do it and despite this particular discussion, most gifts in this house are received graciously and thankfully. I make great efforts to put time and feeling into gifts I give. Many are handmade. I have also been told, "hey, I have too much stuff, can we come up with a holiday tradition that does not involve adding to it." I was not offended and pretty darn happy to know the next year that we were doing something we ALL appreciated rather than have a friend getting more stuff from me and not feeling good about it. I do not see anything wrong with discussing this stuff....even if the etiquette book says it is.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
But really, I am hoping this discussion will be more about the issue as a whole rather than nitpicking my particular views on specific toys or issues surrounding my specific relatives. There are plenty of other currently active threads to have the who-is-ruder-than-who bashfest.

I think that's a huge part of it, though. What one person feels comfortable saying no to, another person doesn't have to say no to. I think that's a huge driving force behind some of these threads, but at the end of the day the issues are similar. It's not about nit picking, dang. I picked up one part of your post because that was the part that stood out the most, and all I meant to do was point out the differences in how the same situation is percieved by two different people, and how that may colour any particular thread. You have no problems saying no to certain things, while I don't have to. We have a common goal, however, which is to not end up with a house full of crap we don't need (or really want).

Clearing I've missed the boat on this one.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I think this is largely a dilemma between the natural, earth-friendly side of ourselves and the child-respecting side of ourselves. Etiquette comes into play, but more frequently, I think the call to keep items that we would not ourselves choose comes down to not taking things that the child has been given and associates with a relative. It's a balance all around.


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

I agree that gifting has gotten somewhat out of control, just like the overconsumption of ALL other things.

I understand having ideals about what you want your children to be exposed to but what I don't understand is how those ideals can trump caring and loving other people. To me, putting limitations on what gifts are allowed, sending out wish lists, etc., makes it ALL about the gifts and does take the fun out of it.

If we got things as gifts that did not fit in w/our ideals as a family, or were just too much, I would think it would be a perfect teaching opportunity. For a young child I would talk to them about having 3 baby strollers and how other children don't have any and have them pick out 1 or 2 to give away. For older children we could get more into a discussion of the whys.

You don't teach children your values by sheltering them from all other ideas, you use real life to discuss they whys and hows of the things important to you so that they can develop their own understanding and internalize that belief if that is what they choose.

That's how I see it anyway. The LAST thing I want is ungrateful kids. Ungratefulness leads to entitlement which leads to a disconnection to the world around you IMO.

BTW, I really don't judge any of the people on this thread or IRL who see it a different way. I am confident that most people make decisions that make sense to them out of a genuine love for their children and a desire to do what is best for them.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I know that guilt, entitlement, etc are complicated feelings. I certainly do not like feeling deprived. But I really hate seeing waste which is where a lot of my feelings about gifting comes from. To me, exchanging a bunch of *things* that do not fill any need and to not bring much joy seems very wasteful. Wasteful in money, resources, labor, effort, space, etc...... It seems like if we did not have this gift frenzy situation, the few gifts we did get would be far more cherished and far less wasteful....ala Little House on the Prairie.....

I agree that it is complicated. I did not mean to suggest that if we were culturally healthy, we would naturally give and receive _more._ I actually suspect we'd be giving and receiving _less_, and more thoughtfully... giving might shift from tangible things to gifts of service.

I compare it to eating. It seems to me our bodies know what they need to be healthy, but few of us naturally choose foods that our bodies like, and we've lost that ability to respond to what our bodies really want. Something is going wrong; something is creating a disconnect between what we think we want to eat and what we need to eat. To write if off as mere overconsumption or consumerism seems to me to miss an important opportunity for healing at a level that goes beyond nutrition. Same with gift giving and gift receiving. After all, its not really a gift if the person it is given to doesn't like it. Something else is at work here, and I suspect it involves a set of unhealthy cultural beliefs about the worth of the individual and screwy ideas about desire, fulfillment, emptiness, deprivation, and righteousness. If I had to give our culture a DSM diagnosis, I would say our culture has Borderline Personality Disorder - it constantly seeks to fill a "hole" in a way that causes the hole to get bigger, and it responds to this by trying the same maladaptive patterns _harder_.

I think people like the OP are realizing that this maladaptive pattern isn't working and want to find something that is more healthy. But overconsumption and underconsumption are just two sides of the same coin. There's got to be a way that the solution isn't merely reactive to the problem, but goes beyond that to address the issues that created the problem in the first place.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

THANK YOU for posting this, OP!










I totally agree--"stuff" has too much power over our lives.

And gifts have sometimes become a substitute for spending quality time with children--relatives who ONLY see my kids at Christmas insist on their right to give them presents.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
I agree that it is complicated. I did not mean to suggest that if we were culturally healthy, we would naturally give and receive _more._ I actually suspect we'd be giving and receiving _less_, and more thoughtfully... giving might shift from tangible things to gifts of service.

I compare it to eating. It seems to me our bodies know what they need to be healthy, but few of us naturally choose foods that our bodies like, and we've lost that ability to respond to what our bodies really want. Something is going wrong; something is creating a disconnect between what we think we want to eat and what we need to eat. To write if off as mere overconsumption or consumerism seems to me to miss an important opportunity for healing at a level that goes beyond nutrition. Same with gift giving and gift receiving. After all, its not really a gift if the person it is given to doesn't like it. Something else is at work here, and I suspect it involves a set of unhealthy cultural beliefs about the worth of the individual and screwy ideas about desire, fulfillment, emptiness, deprivation, and righteousness. If I had to give our culture a DSM diagnosis, I would say our culture has Borderline Personality Disorder - it constantly seeks to fill a "hole" in a way that causes the hole to get bigger, and it responds to this by trying the same maladaptive patterns _harder_.

I think people like the OP are realizing that this maladaptive pattern isn't working and want to find something that is more healthy. But overconsumption and underconsumption are just two sides of the same coin. There's got to be a way that the solution isn't merely reactive to the problem, but goes beyond that to address the issues that created the problem in the first place.

Yes! This is where I was hoping the discussion would go. Less about who does not like plastic or who's grandma is crazy with the unwanted princess paraphernalia and more about where this is coming from and how as a culture we can address more than just the symptom of the problems. I really want to know about the deeper feelings and reasons why we are finding ourselves here. Making lists, cutting off family members, and hiding kid's gifts are clearly not effective or kind strategies. Maybe getting more to the root of how givers and receivers feel might help


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I think that's a huge part of it, though. What one person feels comfortable saying no to, another person doesn't have to say no to. I think that's a huge driving force behind some of these threads, but at the end of the day the issues are similar. It's not about nit picking, dang. I picked up one part of your post because that was the part that stood out the most, and all I meant to do was point out the differences in how the same situation is percieved by two different people, and how that may colour any particular thread. You have no problems saying no to certain things, while I don't have to. We have a common goal, however, which is to not end up with a house full of crap we don't need (or really want).

Clearing I've missed the boat on this one.









Sorry that I came off as snippy. I just was worried this thread would dissolve into a toy tolerance/ideal thread rather than a more global look at the gift issue in general. it is not about not liking Barbie or Cars but more about why we have become to driven to overdo gifts and why we seem to be powerless to talk about it openly.....like a big elephant in the room. Really, this subject applies to much more than just toys and kids.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
I agree that gifting has gotten somewhat out of control, just like the overconsumption of ALL other things.

I understand having ideals about what you want your children to be exposed to but what I don't understand is how those ideals can trump caring and loving other people. To me, putting limitations on what gifts are allowed, sending out wish lists, etc., makes it ALL about the gifts and does take the fun out of it.

If we got things as gifts that did not fit in w/our ideals as a family, or were just too much, I would think it would be a perfect teaching opportunity. For a young child I would talk to them about having 3 baby strollers and how other children don't have any and have them pick out 1 or 2 to give away. For older children we could get more into a discussion of the whys.

You don't teach children your values by sheltering them from all other ideas, you use real life to discuss they whys and hows of the things important to you so that they can develop their own understanding and internalize that belief if that is what they choose.

That's how I see it anyway. The LAST thing I want is ungrateful kids. Ungratefulness leads to entitlement which leads to a disconnection to the world around you IMO.

BTW, I really don't judge any of the people on this thread or IRL who see it a different way. I am confident that most people make decisions that make sense to them out of a genuine love for their children and a desire to do what is best for them.


I am with you in theory. I do not believe in sheltering my child from differing views, customs, love languages, you name it..... I think using differences as a teaching tool has it's place and is likely "the best we can do" right now about this particular issue.

It just seems like we are eventually going to get to a point where it just has to be addressed and discussed. A few too many toys? No biggie, build a new shelf, donate some toys, rotate into the attic, etc.... A few toys you would rather your kid not have or shatter that the peace in your home, cool....it's a phase....the toy will break or the kid will lose interest eventually. But when it starts to assault how you teach your children to respect the earth, be mindful of human suffering, to not be ruled by your belongings, etc..... it becomes more than just a teaching moment, it becomes a way of life.

Take the stroller situation. Let's say dd likes stroller number 1 and wants to donate the other two. But grandma, who gave dd stroller number 2 will be really hurt if she finds out dd chooses to donate it. You see grandma was too poor when her own children were young to be able to buy a toy stroller. This is a very big deal for her. And Auntie Grace, who gifted stroller number 3, saved it from her childhood (because she married into the family and did have a mom who could afford to buy her one) and was hoping dd would keep it forever and pass it on to family until the end of time. Introduce guilt, obligation, and someone just trying to guiltlessly offload their own clutter onto future generations. The stuff and what happens to it starts to develop a life of it's own. And we have not even talked about dolls number 1-15, cradles number 1-4, and the two highchairs Uncle Fred couldn't decide between at the store and decided to get both








Now you have a 6 yo that is fretting between what she wants and will actually play with, what she has space for, the motivations of the givers, and the guilt of putting too much emphasis on STUFF that might not have been asked for, wanted, or needed. Meanwhile she cannot even walk across her room. I cannot figure out how to make that a positive teaching moment.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
like a big elephant in the room. Really, this subject applies to much more than just toys and kids.

Oh sure! But in the context in families, I really can't get past the idea that so much of it has to do with respect. Purposely spiting someone through gifts, and being passive aggressive through children? Why would people like that hae the opportunity to give your child a gift in the first place? Simplistic, I know. So when you have element thrown into the mix it DOES become an elephant in the room. Even just the issue of people blissfully ignoring another family's ideals. Not cool, in my books.

Personally, as someone said above, we're more about using unwanted junk as a learning opportunity and are more focused on our daughter making decisions for herself than moderating the [gift giving] act it self. Maybe it's coincidence that she'll choose to draw or ride a bike instead of playing with a plastic little people school bus, maybe not. But we don't give it a lot thought around here. It's a toy. An object. What we DO during the day is so much more important than the things we touch. If that makes sense.

In fact, I think the more emphasis is placed on "buy this" or "don't buy that", the more the stuff ends up having power over us again. Kinda like the bully philosophy. If you ignore them they'll leave you alone. I think the holidays, and life in general, have become so materialistic because that's what people focus on. If I were to post a thread about the holidays it would be about my favorite recipe, or what my favorite decoration is, or about traditions. And yet some people are actually distraught over the giving and receiving of gifts. It absolutely baffles me, especially when they're distraught in the name of anti-consumerism. It seems like an oxymoron to care that much about STUFF while claiming the issue is about instilling values onto their kids about... you guessed it.. STUFF. "Things" have power over us because we allow it! Even if I had weird relatives with exorbitant gift giving practices, food and traditions would STILL be what I'm focusing on. Because that's what is important!

Is what your kid plays with really that important? Or are the conversations you have, the stories you tell, the things you do, the people you talk to, etc what REALLY count? For us, that's the stuff that matters.

In terms of the inlaw threads and gift giving dilemmas, all these issues seem self inflicted to me.







There is so much more to life than worrying about THINGS. And if we worry about things - how much of them, what they're made of, etc - I think they're still garnering the attention that we are sometimes trying to avoid. (Though I really do understand putting your feet down on things that simply won't fit into your house, common sense and all.. )


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't have anything to add at the moment because I would like to digest what I've read first. Very interesting thread! TBH, I kind of dread holiday time on MDC b/c someone is always complaining about something.

I would just like to say that the post below has got me thinking the most. Why is it that there are two distinct camps: "must have lots so we are better" and the "must have less so we are better". Hmm, lots to think about! Great discussion!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Wondering whether we have gotten too priviledged is another _symptom_ to add to your list of "Is Our Culture Sick?"

Its kind of like nudity and sex. If people were completely healthy about it - if it was accepted as natural and good, if people didn't blush or make jokes to cover up their embarrassment of even accidentally seeing animals procreating, if nobody blinked an eye if half the world was naked during the summer, we'd be a lot healthier. It is this belief that something is wrong with sex, or that we need to place artificial boundaries around it to keep it contained and make it acceptable, that has made our culture so unhealthy around sex, and led to pathology around sex.

The secret belief that maybe we really don't deserve what we want, and the twisted ways we try to keep from feeling that very sad belief are what has created rampant consumerism and the backlash to rampant consumerism - which is the idea that somehow you are more holy and righteous if you choose a minimalist's life. Its fun to give and fun to receive, period. If people felt really and truly that they deserved everything good and that everyone else deserved everything good, we'd be way more relaxed and healthy around gift giving. Entitlement isn't our problem - the opposite is the real problem.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 

I would just like to say that the post below has got me thinking the most. Why is it that there are two distinct camps: "must have lots so we are better" and the "must have less so we are better". Hmm, lots to think about! Great discussion!

I am running out the door but wanted to say I am mulling over the same thing.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

my sweet dh wrote an article on gift giving/from an anarchist/anticapitalist perspective, if anyone wants to read it:
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php...71214101742649


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## clicksab (Oct 15, 2006)

This thread is very, very interesting to me! I'm coming from a completely different viewpoint than anyone else, and I have to say that all the gift threads have me amazed.

See, we are poor. I don't mean "we're living on a tight budget". I mean flat out poor. DD is getting one gift from us this year, just as she has in previous years (actually, her first christmas gift was some new cloth diapers that she needed, hahaha). This year I'm making her a tutu. I think she will love it and be thrilled, but honestly...I'm kind of counting on the presents from my family to make this a good Christmas for her. Not because I think Good Christmas= Plenty of Gifts, but because DD is completely bored with the toys she has and really does need some new, age appropriate, things. Whatever they give her, I will be pretty happy with. I've already had some friends ask me if they thought that their gift was okay, and I'm quite shocked that they asked for my approval!

So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Heck, I'll happily take some of those dreaded plastic toys/ big toys/ noisy toys that are creating too much clutter for some of you!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
This thread is very, very interesting to me! I'm coming from a completely different viewpoint than anyone else, and I have to say that all the gift threads have me amazed.

See, we are poor. I don't mean "we're living on a tight budget". I mean flat out poor. DD is getting one gift from us this year, just as she has in previous years (actually, her first christmas gift was some new cloth diapers that she needed, hahaha). This year I'm making her a tutu. I think she will love it and be thrilled, but honestly...I'm kind of counting on the presents from my family to make this a good Christmas for her. Not because I think Good Christmas= Plenty of Gifts, but because DD is completely bored with the toys she has and really does need some new, age appropriate, things. Whatever they give her, I will be pretty happy with. I've already had some friends ask me if they thought that their gift was okay, and I'm quite shocked that they asked for my approval!

So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Heck, I'll happily take some of those dreaded plastic toys/ big toys/ noisy toys that are creating too much clutter for some of you!









That's how I grew up. In fact, one year our doorbell rang on christmas morning and we went outside and there was black garbage bag full of gifts for me and my sisters, all wrapped, all with our names on it. I got my first purse! (I was about 11/12) To this day we don't know who it was, maybe my mom knows but she hasn't told us.

I remember my mom starting Christmas shopping in October and putting stuff in a box and locking it up in the carport. I use to think she was the world's stingiest person for locking up a bottle of gherkin pickles in October. But the fact was, having a 3 dollar bottle of gherkin pickles on christmas eve HAD to be budgeted for 3 months in advance, or we didn't have it.

I wonder how much of the minimalist movement has to do with privilege, verses a genuine desire to reduce waste and consumption. It weighs on my mind a lot, because I have never, ever, met a low income person/family who has complained about a gift. (And that's spanning my childhood and early adulthood in the low income/subsidized housing I've lived in all my life.) Now we're a middle to upper class family and this (not wanting certain "things") phenomenon is way too common. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but it doesn't influence my opinions on the nature of graciously accepting gifts.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

About the etiquette aspect of receiving gifts, and whether or not we should "submit" to the rules, my feeling is that the etiquette is there to smooth over these tricky situations. That's the whole point of etiquette.

Someone gives you (or your child) a gift you don't want / can't use / don't need / feel is irresponsible / etc etc etc: the rule is always the same. You smile, you say thank you, and you mean it. Because what you are thanking the person for is not merely the object(s) in front of you, but the kindly attention you assume is behind the gift. The time, thought and money that went into it.

The rule is reciprocal, though. Once you've received the gift, it's well within your rights to throw it away, or donate it, or whatever, as long as you are discreet about it. Once we've given something it's totally out of our hands.

I just really don't think it's ok to dictate to others what gifts are acceptable or unacceptable. That said, ongoing discussions about gifting can and should be had. Last year, with my family, we all agreed not to give each other gifts and to make a donation to the local homeless shelter instead. Everyone gave what they could. It was anonymous, so there was no competition between family members. However, the kids in the family still got gifts from family members.

But that's more along the lines of deciding that each person will only buy one gift and drawing a name from a hat (another common solution).

As for gifts for children, my son gets a lot of gifts from very kind and well-meaning distant and far-flung family members. Some of them I've absolutely hated, but since DS loves them and plays with them, they've almost all stayed. In the end, it's about the joy of the giver and the person receiving. Gifts he wasn't interested in were eventually donated. Toys that broke quickly were thrown away. But he got to receive the gift, and the giver got to enjoy his response to it. By the way, the people giving him the most plastic-y, noisy, obnoxious gifts that tended to break quickly and irritate DH and I were almost exclusively from DH's side of the family, which is not American. Wanting to give LOTS of toys to children seems to be pretty universal. In that sense, I don't think it's a sickness related to North-American / European culture. The need to control every aspect of a child's life does seem to be a very North American cultural issue (my perspective, as a North American living in Europe and married to a man from a 3rd culture).


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

a bit OT from this thread (which I find interesting, so thanks for starting it) but I am getting a bit uneasy about giving gifts to young children at all! I mean, now I worry that it will be too plastic-y, too girly, princess-y, not environmentally friendly enough, something they already have, too commercialized/character related, too conforming/encouraging, not imaginative enough, too expensive, too cheap, MIC, and so on....

maybe I should just give cash -- except that's not proper gift giving etiquette, right? Honestly, I don't want to offend anyone, or have them worry about where they are going to keep the gift, or put them in a bad spot where they have to take it away from their kid, yk? I WANT what I give to be appreciated, and enjoyed. But, honestly, I'm second guessing several things I planned to purchase now. Even if you know someone fairly well, it can be hard to see things from their perspective sometimes.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think that part of the problem is that we want to outdo what we've done before. Many parents want to give their children more than they had as kids, and more than they gave them last year. We just keep upping the ante. We want the kids to be wowed on Christmas morning. I think its a fairy natural human tendency.

We live in a culture where how much we can buy is totally out of wack because most of our consumer goods are made by people in totally different economies than ours. Our purchasing power is just wacky. I think this combines with out basic human desire to outdo ourselves to make a consumer frenzy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
At least Almanzo mostly got toys that would biodegrade and did not involve a whole lot of earth-wrecking processing, shipping, and packaging. Many gifts, until recently, were largely made lovingly by the giver. A far cry from how much plastic crap grandma can afford to charge on her credit card.

Since my kids have had a combination of earth friendly toys and plastic crap, I've noticed that the plastic crap doesn't stay nice. After a while, it can may be OK enough to donate to goodwill, but might just need to go into the trash.

The earth friendly toys, however, stay really nice. We have lovely wooden things that are nearly as nice a decade later after two kids as they were on Christmas day. We are saving them for our grandkids. Which makes a different problem, when you buy nice things that last for years and years, even buying just one toy per child for Christmas, it ends up being a lot of stuff after a while.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Agreed. The toy problem is a problem of affluence.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I consider "smart" ecologically to be part of "smart" economically, just to clarify my previous post. I really and truly believe that every culture with enough wealth to acquire a lot of things, tends to have an over-gifting problem in at least part of the population.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 

Someone gives you (or your child) a gift you don't want / can't use / don't need / feel is irresponsible / etc etc etc: the rule is always the same. You smile, you say thank you, and you mean it. Because what you are thanking the person for is not merely the object(s) in front of you, but the kindly attention you assume is behind the gift. The time, thought and money that went into it.

I just really don't think it's ok to dictate to others what gifts are acceptable or unacceptable. That said, ongoing discussions about gifting can and should be had. Last year, with my family, we all agreed not to give each other gifts and to make a donation to the local homeless shelter instead. Everyone gave what they could. It was anonymous, so there was no competition between family members. However, the kids in the family still got gifts from family members.

. In the end, it's about the joy of the giver and the person receiving. Gifts he wasn't interested in were eventually donated. Toys that broke quickly were thrown away. But he got to receive the gift, and the giver got to enjoy his response to it. By the way, the people giving him the most plastic-y, noisy, obnoxious gifts that tended to break quickly and irritate DH and I were almost exclusively from DH's side of the family, which is not American. Wanting to give LOTS of toys to children seems to be pretty universal. In that sense, I don't think it's a sickness related to North-American / European culture. The need to control every aspect of a child's life does seem to be a very North American cultural issue (my perspective, as a North American living in Europe and married to a man from a 3rd culture).


















I think its more worth looking into when did it get where we could send lists to people of the stuff we want them to buy or kids, instead of just letting them do what they want. Are we so privileged that we now not only want to control what WE buy for a kids but also GIFTS that people by for our kids, thinking of them, and how happy they would be with said gift..that is the real question.


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## abharrington (Jun 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
a bit OT from this thread (which I find interesting, so thanks for starting it) but I am getting a bit uneasy about giving gifts to young children at all! I mean, now I worry that it will be too plastic-y, too girly, princess-y, not environmentally friendly enough, something they already have, too commercialized/character related, too conforming/encouraging, not imaginative enough, too expensive, too cheap, MIC, and so on....

maybe I should just give cash -- except that's not proper gift giving etiquette, right? Honestly, I don't want to offend anyone, or have them worry about where they are going to keep the gift, or put them in a bad spot where they have to take it away from their kid, yk? I WANT what I give to be appreciated, and enjoyed. But, honestly, I'm second guessing several things I planned to purchase now. Even if you know someone fairly well, it can be hard to see things from their perspective sometimes.

hugs mama...don't worry...i'm sure the gifts will bring much joy.
















these are similar situations to mine and i try to either ask the child mom for some suggestions or observe what they have in their home, both type/style and size/amount and choose something that seems similar.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Very valid point. Those of us who are actually able to _choose_ which "team" we're on, are in a priviledged group and would do well to remember it! And I use the word team b/c sometimes it really does feel like a battle between the two schools of thought.


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## caro113 (Aug 25, 2008)

This is why I don't want to do much with my daughter. We plan to have quite a few children and I don't want to start with getting my daughter lots and lots and then have to make her "pile" smaller and smaller each year as we add another child. DP and I have agreed to buy her one classic dvd every year. We don't watch much tv but it's something he wants to do so I'm okay with that. This year we'll get the Peanuts boxed set of three dvds for $20. (the great pumpkin, thanksgiving, christmas tree) And we'll get her a snow globe every year because that's my thing. (I collect them so I'm passing that down to her.) Other than that, we may buy her one or two things, but that's it. And next year, we'll have another child.

I hate how people think they need to buy this and that every year. It truly feels like parents (and other family members) are just trying to buy off the children. That's how I always felt with my own parents. People seem to be so materialistic and it's quite sad. Whatever happened to everyone getting one or two gifts, maybe a big family gift (like a new tv or blu ray player and a blu ray disk or tow), and just being together for a nice meal with a few games followed by an updated family photo, to be mailed or emailed to everyone in the following week? With the family changing houses every year so everyone gets a chance to stay home, so everyone has to travel at least once in a while, so the ones with newborns don't have to deal with leaving their comfort zones?

My ideal holiday? Assuming my mother wasn't involved. I would love to gather my family together at my place (of course, that wouldn't work this year because our place really is too small for the whole family) and make a meal for everyone. We would eat and have a nice conversation. Then the children would open their gifts. (one or two from their parents, one from their aunt/uncle, maybe one homemade one from their cousins) If it's Thanksgiving, of course that would involve the football game. Either way, then we would play a few games and have dessert and just be together as a family. Maybe we could even have everyone stay the night and then have a nice breakfast in the morning before seeing everyone off. That would be ideal. That would be my perfect holiday.

But does that ever happen? Of course not. My family (2 hrs away) insists we all go there every year for every holiday. This means Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter. They still expected us down there, and threw a bit of fit, for Thanksgiving last year, when we had a newborn. And this year, they expect their son to be there with his 3.5 yo, 1.5 yo, 4 month old. And they have to travel 12-16 hrs! They're due to get in Tuesday night and want to leave Friday or Saturday. My aunt happily told me that she gave him a hard time about that. I used to live near where he lives now. I have made that drive, several times. That drive is hell. It's boring and it's long. All highway. I would never want to make that drive with a 4 month old, let alone two older children as well. That's three car seats, plus their dog and their luggage, in one car for that long?! That's crazy. I would never expect them to make that drive. I wouldn't even bring it up.

So I think it's more than just gifts sometimes. It's this stupid idea that we must all be together, no matter what, and we must pretend we are this big happy family, even when we aren't. It's like we're just putting on a show for ourselves to tell to others later. "Oh we had a great time being all together. And the kids got all these great gifts. Aren't we just the best family ever?"


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 

And gifts have sometimes become a substitute for spending quality time with children--relatives who ONLY see my kids at Christmas insist on their right to give them presents.









This is a great point. We have this problem with some relatives, also. How thoughtfully can a gift be picked out, if the giver really knows nothing about the giftee?


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 

In fact, I think the more emphasis is placed on "buy this" or "don't buy that", the more the stuff ends up having power over us again. Kinda like the bully philosophy. If you ignore them they'll leave you alone. I think the holidays, and life in general, have become so materialistic because that's what people focus on. If I were to post a thread about the holidays it would be about my favorite recipe, or what my favorite decoration is, or about traditions. And yet some people are actually distraught over the giving and receiving of gifts. It absolutely baffles me, especially when they're distraught in the name of anti-consumerism. It seems like an oxymoron to care that much about STUFF while claiming the issue is about instilling values onto their kids about... you guessed it.. STUFF. "Things" have power over us because we allow it! Even if I had weird relatives with exorbitant gift giving practices, food and traditions would STILL be what I'm focusing on. Because that's what is important!

Is what your kid plays with really that important? Or are the conversations you have, the stories you tell, the things you do, the people you talk to, etc what REALLY count? For us, that's the stuff that matters.

In terms of the inlaw threads and gift giving dilemmas, all these issues seem self inflicted to me.







There is so much more to life than worrying about THINGS. And if we worry about things - how much of them, what they're made of, etc - I think they're still garnering the attention that we are sometimes trying to avoid. (Though I really do understand putting your feet down on things that simply won't fit into your house, common sense and all.. )

This is exactly how I feel about this subject. I've never been able to put it into words, but I completely agree that causing oneself anxiety over things, even from a minimalist point of view, is giving them too much power in one's life.

I wonder if it stems from guilt. I too grew up in a family with less money than a lot. I wouldn't call us poor, maybe lower middle class, but the worrying over how much stuff has never been something I experienced. I try to keep clutter to a minimum and go through my stuff to cull out things I don't use or want anymore but it doesn't affect me much. But the people I know who do struggle with these feelings all grew up with more money/wealth. So maybe this kind of feeling comes about from feeling "bad" about having more than others?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 

It just seems like we are eventually going to get to a point where it just has to be addressed and discussed. A few too many toys? No biggie, build a new shelf, donate some toys, rotate into the attic, etc.... A few toys you would rather your kid not have or shatter that the peace in your home, cool....it's a phase....the toy will break or the kid will lose interest eventually. But when it starts to assault how you teach your children to respect the earth, be mindful of human suffering, to not be ruled by your belongings, etc..... it becomes more than just a teaching moment, it becomes a way of life.


Beautifully said!!!!!!!!


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Heck, I'll happily take some of those dreaded plastic toys/ big toys/ noisy toys that are creating too much clutter for some of you!









Amen sistah! I have a small family, only 2 grandmas and they are both living on SSI, no cousins/aunts/uncles on my side. I don't foresee a lot of gifts from DH's extended family, maybe 1 or 2 things tops. My sister will be the most generous but even she makes a modest living. I just don't have relatives that can spend lots and lots of money on gifts for Christmas.

We're tight financially right now, not poor, we eat, the bills are mostly paid but there is just not a lot of extra money. We can probably buy one big gift and I'm looking for it used on Craigslist.

I just cannot fathom being able to decide telling someone what to get or what not to get, I'll take anything and everything at this point







!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
This thread is very, very interesting to me! I'm coming from a completely different viewpoint than anyone else, and I have to say that all the gift threads have me amazed.

See, we are poor. I don't mean "we're living on a tight budget". I mean flat out poor. DD is getting one gift from us this year, just as she has in previous years (actually, her first christmas gift was some new cloth diapers that she needed, hahaha). This year I'm making her a tutu. I think she will love it and be thrilled, but honestly...I'm kind of counting on the presents from my family to make this a good Christmas for her. Not because I think Good Christmas= Plenty of Gifts, but because DD is completely bored with the toys she has and really does need some new, age appropriate, things. Whatever they give her, I will be pretty happy with. I've already had some friends ask me if they thought that their gift was okay, and I'm quite shocked that they asked for my approval!

So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Heck, I'll happily take some of those dreaded plastic toys/ big toys/ noisy toys that are creating too much clutter for some of you!










Ok, maybe it's a class issue. I'll accept that. But here's an analogy: a starving person wouldn't understand my desire to quit overeating, to quit mindlessly stuffing my face, to quit mindlessly packing on the pounds, etc. But I really shouldn't overeat just because there are hungry people in the world (if anything, that thought should make me eat less.) And the fact that there are lots of people with very few possessions in this world should make me more cognizant of what I acquire and keep.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 

I wonder if it stems from guilt. I too grew up in a family with less money than a lot. I wouldn't call us poor, maybe lower middle class, but the worrying over how much stuff has never been something I experienced. I try to keep clutter to a minimum and go through my stuff to cull out things I don't use or want anymore but it doesn't affect me much. But the people I know who do struggle with these feelings all grew up with more money/wealth. So maybe this kind of feeling comes about from feeling "bad" about having more than others?

Just to offer a different perspective, I am the exact opposite. My parents made me very aware (maybe not on purpose) how strapped we were. I remember feeling incredibly guilty about needing new school clothes.

It may be because of this that I have a very hard time spending money now even though dh and I are doing alright. I often don't buy things that many people would consider a necessity (ie: a cell phone). I think I have fewer clothes than any woman I know and very little in the way of accessories. I just got back from buying ds two new pairs of pants and a fleece, and that was a HUGE splurge because we always buy second-hand.

I'm not saying this because I think it makes me _better_ to be a "minimalist" by nature, just that it makes me different from some of my family and IL's. And I fully concede that the problem of too much stuff is definitely a problem of the privileged. However, I actually have a physical anxiety reaction to the ARMLOADS of crap that extended family members bring to my house for ds. And long before I cared so much about the environment and labor issues, I had the same reaction walking into the Dollar Store, Costco, and sometimes even Home Depot. All that stuff makes me _twitch_.

Sorry, I don't know how to stay within the scope of this discussion.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

And I'll fully admit, stuff *is* a problem in my life. Yes, I guess I'm giving it too much importance. Ds's bday is in the fall. I literally got a sinking feeling in my stomach this year when I thought about what birthday and Christmas meant -- tons of stuff coming into the house. (The problem is really with just a couple people in the family that I don't need to mention by name). But it's gotten to the point where I have stress at the thought of a family visit because I know it literally means a couple bags of more stuff. Every single time. Without fail.

So does that make me sick? I dunno.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
It's really odd to me how early these threads come now. We barely get through the Halloween candy threads and the Christmas gifts threads start.









Because some of us have to budget along time in advance and very carefully choose/shop for the gifts we want to buy. We don't have the money to buy everything in December at whatever price it happens to be in the store. Nor do we have the money to find it online at some place that still has it in stock and then pay extra shipping.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
No, I don't really think it has anything to do with a sick culture. All of the cultures I've lived in, give children more or fewer gifts depending on what they can afford. Obviously the occasions for gift-giving do differ by culture. There was something I read (by Pinker maybe?) about how "excessive" gift-giving (by the standards of what would be "smart" economically) is one of the universal human traits across cultures. But those things that Laura Ingalls Wilder got for Christmas-- well, first of all, they were in fact a stretch for her family. And second of all, her husband grew up in a much wealthier family, and received more gifts than she did.

This is a great post. People like to give things and people generally feel good giving something that's a stretch. It's like it means more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
This thread is very, very interesting to me! I'm coming from a completely different viewpoint than anyone else, and I have to say that all the gift threads have me amazed.

See, we are poor. I don't mean "we're living on a tight budget". I mean flat out poor. DD is getting one gift from us this year, just as she has in previous years (actually, her first christmas gift was some new cloth diapers that she needed, hahaha). This year I'm making her a tutu. I think she will love it and be thrilled, but honestly...I'm kind of counting on the presents from my family to make this a good Christmas for her. Not because I think Good Christmas= Plenty of Gifts, but because DD is completely bored with the toys she has and really does need some new, age appropriate, things. Whatever they give her, I will be pretty happy with. I've already had some friends ask me if they thought that their gift was okay, and I'm quite shocked that they asked for my approval!

So I can't help but wonder if some of this is just all about class. The whole idea of "must have lots so we are better" vs "must have less so we are better" just doesn't apply to plenty of people out there. Some of us just want more because we actually need more.

Heck, I'll happily take some of those dreaded plastic toys/ big toys/ noisy toys that are creating too much clutter for some of you!









I agree with you. I also depend on family to buy DD stuff.

And for my family, that's easy. They all have lots of money. They look at me like I have 3 heads when I tell them we can't go to the really cool swimming pool ($40/3 of us and then they always buy snacks after and DD always wants the hot food) because they didn't give us time to budget for it and we've spent out entertainment money for the month.

I'm hoping family buys DD lots of stuff (ie. toys NOT books/clothes) for her birthday and Christmas (close together) because otherwise she's going to spend another year playing with the same toys she got when she turned 2.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm hoping family buys DD lots of stuff (ie. toys NOT books/clothes) for her birthday and Christmas (close together) because otherwise she's going to spend another year playing with the same toys she got when she turned 2.

I hope you get your wish


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
I hope you get your wish









I hope so too. Because we don't have the money, and we aren't going into debt to do it.

But my DD does deserve some new toys. She already notices when she goes to her cousin's house that they have new cool toys all the time. (Most of it's wood and all crunchy). And it makes me sad to know that I can't provide for her in the same way. She doesn't need what they have, but she would be very happy with a bit more than what she has.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I'm veering way off topic, so I'll just start lurking.

I do believe there is a prevailing attitude that more is always better, and I don't like it.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
And I'll fully admit, stuff *is* a problem in my life. Yes, I guess I'm giving it too much importance. Ds's bday is in the fall. I literally got a sinking feeling in my stomach this year when I thought about what birthday and Christmas meant -- tons of stuff coming into the house. (The problem is really with just a couple people in the family that I don't need to mention by name). But it's gotten to the point where I have stress at the thought of a family visit because I know it literally means a couple bags of more stuff. Every single time. Without fail.

So does that make me sick? I dunno.

I don't think it makes you sick, but I do find it somewhat saddening that events that should be happy and joyful have become so upsetting for you. Unfortunately, I think it comes to a point that you can't control what others do - only your reaction to it. There really isn't a way to keep people from giving him things, especially if you have said something about it before. So at that point the onus is on the parent to decide whether or not to let it get to them, you know? Have a plan and deal with the gifts in a way that works for you without getting yourself stressed so you can enjoy holidays.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
I'm feeling like I'm sounding ungrateful or ungracious, and so for accuracy I'd just like to mention that the stuff I stress about is often poorly-made stuff that breaks very quickly and then I have to throw it out. Not to mention the meltdown ds has when it breaks. Two of his birthday presents from less than a month ago are already broken, not because of anything ds did as far as I can tell. And now what? In the landfill it goes.

FTR, I like toys and we are not against all things plastic. What frustrates me is that it's an abundance of stuff purchased at the Dollar Tree or the swap meet, which likely adds up to a good chunk of change. The same amount of money, or even less, could be used towards one or two sturdier toys. Which leads me to believe there is a prevailing attitude that more is always better.

But I think we can agree that no one wins when someone spends their money on something that breaks within two weeks.

I do always try to accept toys graciously, except for the time the IL's gleefully purchased ds something they knew we were deadset against and it wasn't even age-appropriate. I did not fake any joy then, although I don't think I was unpleasant. Dh was p-o'd.

I've actually been impressed with some of the Dollar Store stuff that we've gotten for DD because we've been there getting other things and she's really wanted a new toy. Some of that stuff has lasted for more than 6 months.

And sometimes quantity is better than quality. You can improve the quality later, but many things are hard to play if you don't have enough. Like DD got a large thing of Mega Blocks for her birthday last year. They suck. But they got ALOT more play than the small container of Duplo which wasn't enough for her to actually play with.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am really not "allowed" to have any control over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?

While gifting in relation to Christmas hasn't been around as an established cultural event for more than 150(ish) years, gifting at various holidays and events has been around since we walked out of the caves (and was probably around before then). And you hit the nail on the head. Gifting is about POWER.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. But I think one way to untangle -- or at least recognize -- the emotions that come with gifting and receiving gifts is to understand the social imperative driving the gift-giving ritual.

It's about establishing and re-establishing connections. Between friends, allies, associates, relatives, future relatives, neighbors, employees, employers...choosing the "right" gift, correctly reading the person you're giving a gift so that you give them something of equivalent value to what they're giving you (and reading the relationship correctly that they ARE giving you a gift) -- OR giving or receiving a gift that's significantly higher in value than the one given in recognition of a dominant/sub power relationship -- demonstrating affection and loyalty to a person. And so on and so forth.

Christmas and gift-giving changed a lot in the mid-1800s as the middle-class child-focused family arose, and I think that muddied the waters a lot in terms of our understanding of the emotional drive behind gift-giving and receiving. Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it helps to understand the history behind it to know why we've got generations of expectations and emotions bearing down on us around the holidays.

I actually have a lot of fun with this time of year. I love the hunt for a good deal, crafting and creating gifts, finding something that someone's been looking for -- or something that they didn't know they wanted -- and getting together with family. I enjoy it. But I don't take it too seriously. My family's made something of a game out of picking up hints someone's dropped (whether they meant to or not), sometimes months before Christmas, and creating a wish list for that person around things they've admired or commented on. Sometimes there's a miss, but usually, the result is some crazily creative, welcome gifts of varying monetary value but that carry a lot of emotional value. Or they're just humorous. It's fun. And that's the power my family has given to the whole gifting process.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Of course the minimalist movement has to do with privilege.

So does practically every choice. That doesn't mean there is no value in it.

I think of two things relevant to this:

1. I've spent a lot of time working and volunteering with marginalized populations, and one of the basic tenets is that everyone has a right to their own preferences. That is part of maintaining dignity as a human being. Being 'choosy' is actually a means to dignity across levels of privilege.

2. I've personally been though both fat and lean times (within the norms of North America -- compared to people I've worked with in third world countries, I've never come close to lean.) One of the issues for me is that I have relatives who would spend *more* in lean times, and put themselves way into debt.

A pp mentioned overhearing her parents stress about post-holiday cc debt. For some of us, the abhorrence of quantity may have some deep roots, just as for some people, gratitude for anything at all has similarly deep roots.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Even if I had weird relatives with exorbitant gift giving practices, food and traditions would STILL be what I'm focusing on. Because that's what is important!

Can you understand that one might interfere with the other? That when you have relatives who, when not given explicit boundaries, spend themselves halfway into massive debt so that there are piles of presents that take the entire day to open, that that might actually influence your ability to maintain other traditions, like playing a game together or going for a walk in the snow?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Ok, maybe it's a class issue. I'll accept that. But here's an analogy: a starving person wouldn't understand my desire to quit overeating, to quit mindlessly stuffing my face, to quit mindlessly packing on the pounds, etc. But I really shouldn't overeat just because there are hungry people in the world (if anything, that thought should make me eat less.) And the fact that there are lots of people with very few possessions in this world should make me more cognizant of what I acquire and keep.











FWIW, I totally hear you, OP.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I've been thinking about this.

I don't think that 'gifts' in specific are the problem. I think it's the obsession with them (or with other things) which is a problem.

***Please read through the next 2 paragraphs before commenting.

People obsess about too many things. I think that makes our culture sick. When people can't go out for a nice lunch with co-workers for Christmas (someone's birthday/retirement/hiring) without obsessing about how many calories or how healthy the food is, that's not healthy. When people obsess and worry about each thing they buy and where that item came from and what it's made out of, that's not healthy. When people spend 2 months getting tummy aches about what they think their families may/may not get their kids for Christmas/birthday, that's also not healthy.

Now, I'm not saying anything about making lifestyle choices and trying hard to stick to them. We do at some level for a bunch of things. I'm talking about a strange "has to be 100%" mentality that I think causes people alot of stress. I'm talking about the person who came to my DD's party and wanted to see labels of the packed stuff (nice hummus from a small deli and mainstream salsa) before deciding if her child (with NO allergies) could eat anything. She finally decided that she wasn't happy with the hummus or the salsa because they weren't organic and wouldn't let her poor kid eat anything. We, as a family, choose to eat healthy and buy whole grains, but at a party (which are rare events) she can eat anything she's not allergic to. I think there's a difference between the parents deciding to buy only a certain kind of toy and trying to force other people to follow the same rules.

I think that moderation is much healthier.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
I'm veering way off topic, so I'll just start lurking.

I do believe there is a prevailing attitude that more is always better, and I don't like it.

Leaping off into tangent land - I actually believe the opposite. Most people I know actively try to minimize the amount of stuff they have. Sure there are a few people that have a playroom filled with toys for each child (!!) but most I know are actively trying to limit their consumption.

... I just wanted to say that I'm still loving the posts on this thread. I'm actually feeling a bit overwhelmed b/c I want to reply to everyone. LOL I think I'll switch to lurking and just soak it all in.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

What really stood out to me in your post was your attitude towards being gracious/having manners when you or your children get a gift you view as a bad gift. I don't think gifts dictate manners, I think manners dictate manners. In our society we tend to not act ungracious when someone gives us something, we tend to look at the thought behind it and act thankful until we find a way to discard of the unwanted gift. I don't think I like the idea of a society where people aren't gracious and thoughtful towards each other. Clearly that works for your family and friends since you have a close network of family and friends, but I would rather not live in a society where we value telling someone their thoughtful gift is horrible and refusing to take it.

I do think that materialism is a problem, but I don't think the answer is rudeness.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
Leaping off into tangent land - I actually believe the opposite. Most people I know actively try to minimize the amount of stuff they have. Sure there are a few people that have a playroom filled with toys for each child (!!) but most I know are actively trying to limit their consumption.

The people I know trying to limit their consumption are the same people I know who have lots of money. So they feel "happy" that they spent $$$$$ on some super fancy expensive dollhouse rather than 1/10 of the money on a couple of "cheap plastic pieces of junk". They get really smug about it too.

They are the same people who can throw out/give away boxes or bags of toys before birthdays or Christmas and their kids don't notice they are missing any toys. But the parents can brag about it. But, I've been in those living rooms/playrooms and there are still more toys than my DD has even after their "purge", so it's no surprise that their kids didn't notice.


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## clicksab (Oct 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Ok, maybe it's a class issue. I'll accept that. But here's an analogy: a starving person wouldn't understand my desire to quit overeating, to quit mindlessly stuffing my face, to quit mindlessly packing on the pounds, etc. But I really shouldn't overeat just because there are hungry people in the world (if anything, that thought should make me eat less.) And the fact that there are lots of people with very few possessions in this world should make me more cognizant of what I acquire and keep.

Good point! I do want to clarify...I wasn't trying to tell anyone what they should do or how they should feel, simply because there are poor people like me out there. I was just pointing out the fact that it is an issue that I literally cannot comprehend. I honestly don't know what I would do if I had more and my family gave us toys that I'm not comfortable with. It's interesting to me to read about how strongly people feel about these issues.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
What really stood out to me in your post was your attitude towards being gracious/having manners when you or your children get a gift you view as a bad gift. I don't think gifts dictate manners, I think manners dictate manners. In our society we tend to not act ungracious when someone gives us something, we tend to look at the thought behind it and act thankful until we find a way to discard of the unwanted gift. I don't think I like the idea of a society where people aren't gracious and thoughtful towards each other. Clearly that works for your family and friends since you have a close network of family and friends, but I would rather not live in a society where we value telling someone their thoughtful gift is horrible and refusing to take it.

I do think that materialism is a problem, but I don't think the answer is rudeness.

I am not sure if you are referring to me (the OP) or another post. But either way, this is EXACTLY why I would like to have honest dialog with family about gifting and the impact it has in our house. No, not lists, rules, and restrictions , but honest dialog. We, in actually, do not do what you are suggesting. I cannot think of a time when we have graciously accepted a gift then discarded a few hours later and all had a big laugh about it. But the fact is, the amount (and really, size) of gifts *some* relatives feel the need to give do not physically fit inside my dd's room or other common areas of our house, so yeah, something is going to go. With any luck it will be things dd outgrew or no longer plays with. And other times we are stockpiling rotated bins of toys into the attic. But it is TOO much and people are spending money that is really needed for other things to do it.....when really dd is THRILLED when grandma wants to bake cookies with her or go for a walk together....things they rarely get to do because grandma does not have enough money to travel here and we do not have enough time off to travel there







Yet, add up the cost of the toys (remember many are sitting in my attic) for one year and grandma could buy two plane tickets. If it were more "OK" for us to talk openly about it...well you know.....


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
But it is TOO much and people are spending money that is really needed for other things to do it.....when really dd is THRILLED when grandma wants to bake cookies with her or go for a walk together....things they rarely get to do because grandma does not have enough money to travel here and we do not have enough time off to travel there







Yet, add up the cost of the toys (remember many are sitting in my attic) for one year and grandma could buy two plane tickets. If it were more "OK" for us to talk openly about it...well you know.....

But people are different. Some of my fondest memories are of things my grandparents got me for Christmas. One year they bought me this huge car race track. It was awesome. I still have it in a box waiting for my DD to be old enough and hopefully it will still work. I also have great memories of spending time with them.

But it's about moderation. It sounds like you're saying that you wish grandma would buy zero toys and come visit twice a year. That's just as extreme as only ever sending presents and never coming.

That's also wanting to force your values (you seem to value quality time) onto her. That doesn't seem very fair.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 

Can you understand that one might interfere with the other? That when you have relatives who, when not given explicit boundaries, spend themselves halfway into massive debt so that there are piles of presents that take the entire day to open, that that might actually influence your ability to maintain other traditions, like playing a game together or going for a walk in the snow?

.

Oh my gosh, yes! This is true for us. Dd was in tears at the end of Christmas last year. There was gift opening on Christmas Eve at my aunts house. Two hours. Three hours of it at my mom's house the next morning. A two hour drive to dh's parents for another SIX HOURS. Dd was 5 and asked if she could be done opening presents halfway through the third event.

The really sad part? Dh and I got one single gift from the two of us to her. It was wrapped and had traveled all over waiting for us to have a private moment to let her open it. It never happened. She never even noticed that there was not a gift from us. It did not matter anyway. My sister had gotten her the same gift (I did not know) and she had opened it earlier. So, I tucked it away to return once we got home. I had every intention of replacing it with another gift, but it seemed sort of pointless. She did not notice that we did not give her one and we were already struggling with finding places for the stuff she got. Adding to it was not a good thing.

I cannot explain how sad and MAD I was that the experience was taken away from us







One gift. We wanted to give our own child one gift. I know it was not done on purpose and our families would be mortified if they knew this happened. But it is what it is and I feel powerless to change it.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 

I cannot explain how sad and MAD I was that the experience was taken away from us







One gift. We wanted to give our own child one gift. I know it was not done on purpose and our families would be mortified if they knew this happened. But it is what it is and I feel powerless to change it.

But that has nothing to do with your family.

If it was that important to you, why didn't you give her your gift before traveling in the privacy of your own home?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Ok, maybe it's a class issue. I'll accept that. But here's an analogy: a starving person wouldn't understand my desire to quit overeating, to quit mindlessly stuffing my face, to quit mindlessly packing on the pounds, etc. But I really shouldn't overeat just because there are hungry people in the world (if anything, that thought should make me eat less.) And the fact that there are lots of people with very few possessions in this world should make me more cognizant of what I acquire and keep.

Great analogy!

We are not minimalists and are not what one would consider "wealthy" by any stretch of the imagination. We have recently become solidly middle class. I feel for anyone reading this thread who wishes they had this problem. I do. Watching your own kids go without any toys while listening to people complain about having too many sucks. I get it.

But the answer is not for us to keep collecting too many toys (things, cars, vacation homes......). That does not help people who do not have enough toys (or food or shelter or......). We are grateful to be fed, warm, safe, and comfortable. Very grateful. That is a big reason why I hate unnecessary waste. We are also very grateful for the thought, effort, and love that goes into these gifts. With few exceptions, the gifts are given in the spirit of love and care. Because it is "rude" to talk about it, we cannot find a way to discuss how a bit (OK a lot) too much of a good thing can turn into a bad thing.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
The people I know trying to limit their consumption are the same people I know who have lots of money. So they feel "happy" that they spent $$$$$ on some super fancy expensive dollhouse rather than 1/10 of the money on a couple of "cheap plastic pieces of junk". They get really smug about it too.

They are the same people who can throw out/give away boxes or bags of toys before birthdays or Christmas and their kids don't notice they are missing any toys. But the parents can brag about it. But, I've been in those living rooms/playrooms and there are still more toys than my DD has even after their "purge", so it's no surprise that their kids didn't notice.

I'm sorry that those are your experiences. Mine have been different. I admit that I am comfortably off and am middle class but my son would definitely notice if I got rid of bags of his stuff. So before birthdays and Christmas the two of together go through all his things and he decides what to give away. After all, the toys were gifts to him and he should be able to decide. He's 4 and so far the process has been successful. I hope to keep it up.

Yes there are people out there who spend tons of money on what they think are the "correct" toys (expensive/wooden/made by sacred wood nymphs etc) and are smug about their choices and purchases but I really don't pay it any mind. I don't let other peoples decisions effect how I feel about mine.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Can you understand that one might interfere with the other? That when you have relatives who, when not given explicit boundaries, spend themselves halfway into massive debt so that there are piles of presents that take the entire day to open, that that might actually influence your ability to maintain other traditions, like playing a game together or going for a walk in the snow?

Honestly, no. Having a room full of stuff is a minor inconvenience, sure. But you seem to think a room full of presents will actually prevent you from doing the things that ARE important to you, which I honestly can't wrap my brain around. If you don't WANT to spend all day opening gifts, don't. If it's important to play a game, play a game. If you want to walk in the snow, walk in the snow.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
But that has nothing to do with your family.

If it was that important to you, why didn't you give her your gift before traveling in the privacy of your own home?

Well, for starters, we traveled 12 hours to be with family and did so a full week before Christmas. It was a Christmas gift. I guess it never occurred to me that I should have to pencil in a time to give my own child a Christmas gift.

Luckily we, as a nuclear family unit, have many holiday traditions that happen before and after any travel that we might do. None cost money or contribute to the household belongings. And those are the things dd remembers each year. She cannot wait to make treats for the birds, volunteer to deliver meals to shut-ins, play in the holiday concert at the local assisted living facility, dress our tree, decorate cookies for the neighbors, handcraft ornaments for family members, go caroling, etc..... Our traditions do not center around acquiring stuff. But, should I really expect that giving her one gift on Christmas is asking too much. FTR, dh and I also did not get to exchange gifts that day either. We ended up swapping gifts after midnight in our hotel room. Tis the season.


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## lolar2DH (Oct 5, 2009)

I received the perfect gift for me for my birthday this year. I got four stuffed Snoopies, all created in the style of the different eras Charles Schulz drew him in. For example, there was a 1950s Snoopy, a 1960s Snoopy, a 1970s Snoopy and a 1990s Snoopy.

There was no practical value in it; I imagine it wasn't terribly expensive either. But it just made my birthday. Why? Because it was the perfect thoughtful gift. I'm a great fan and collector of Peanuts stuff, and a hobbyist cartoonist myself. I also like to analyze things, so I've always analyzed Charles Schulz's different drawing styles and how it changed over time. So having actual three-dimensional Snoopies in different styles was actually thrilling to me.

The point here is that the perfect gift is about how you recognize who someone is. I know that this applies somewhat less to kids when their personalities are slightly less formed. But even so, I still remember my favorite gifts as a kid: a Fischer-Price tape recorder. I loved to record my own music, little radio plays I'd make up, etc. And I grew up actually to work in audio. I also remember a set of rubber stamps with letters and numbers when I was very young. I liked to pretend to make my own newspapers with those. I remember these because they were gifts that were tailor made to the kind of kid I was.

I think gifts that attempt to force someone's interests or values on someone else aren't really gifts at all. The best gifts are about recognizing the intrinsic worth and value of someone else, and choosing something that reflects this back to him or her.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

OP, you reference crunchy and all the things that go on with that. For me, this issue of materialism (that's really what it is) and pride (on the gift givers part) is a huge problem and for me, as a christian, is something that me and DH are really trying to battle. But, even though our faith teaches us to live simply and being willing to cast away material possessions...it still goes completely against the grain of our culture...and thus our church community. My husband and I are trying to teach our children the way Jesus calls us to live, but sometimes we really feel like we would be seen as "extremists" even in our own church, where most of the parishioners are upper middle class, successful business owners, doctors, etc.

Again as a christian, I don't care so much about etiquette but it's really hard to go against that because people don't see your intentions as good or worthy if you don't follow it. Being honest in a loving way is ultimately best for all parties involved, but it can be painful up front. I haven't been brave enough yet to be honest about my feelings on this issue.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have to say that I have gained a lot from this conversation so far! Thanks everyone for being respectful and keep it coming!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
And I'll fully admit, stuff *is* a problem in my life. Yes, I guess I'm giving it too much importance. Ds's bday is in the fall. I literally got a sinking feeling in my stomach this year when I thought about what birthday and Christmas meant -- tons of stuff coming into the house. (The problem is really with just a couple people in the family that I don't need to mention by name). But it's gotten to the point where I have stress at the thought of a family visit because I know it literally means a couple bags of more stuff. Every single time. Without fail.

So does that make me sick? I dunno.











I know that feeling.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Well, for starters, we traveled 12 hours to be with family and did so a full week before Christmas. It was a Christmas gift. I guess it never occurred to me that I should have to pencil in a time to give my own child a Christmas gift.

Luckily we, as a nuclear family unit, have many holiday traditions that happen before and after any travel that we might do. None cost money or contribute to the household belongings. And those are the things dd remembers each year. She cannot wait to make treats for the birds, volunteer to deliver meals to shut-ins, play in the holiday concert at the local assisted living facility, dress our tree, decorate cookies for the neighbors, handcraft ornaments for family members, go caroling, etc..... Our traditions do not center around acquiring stuff. But, should I really expect that giving her one gift on Christmas is asking too much. FTR, dh and I also did not get to exchange gifts that day either. We ended up swapping gifts after midnight in our hotel room. Tis the season.

Why didn't you insert your gifts under one of the various trees you were at so that the presents got opened?

I'm really confused. That's what happens in my family. Everyone comes to my parents bearing gifts, those gifts all get scattered around the tree and opened as they are selected. I would never occur to me to hold presents back and expect other people to make a "special time" for us to give DD something. If I did then I sure would pencil in a time for it.

We want our birthday present to her to be "special" and we don't really feel like only giving her a $15 second hand trike in front of my family who have all probably spent 2 or 3 times as much on her (if not more). So we are going to give it to her at our house before going to my parents.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm getting all the gift threads confused but someone somewhere said you don't counter materialism with rudeness and I think that really hit the nail on the head for me.

I have the final control of my home, so I don't fret about it really. I try not to get in the way of other people's relationships with my son unless I am really really worried or dreadfully inconvenienced in some core way. If there are too many toys or something I really don't like, then I don't have an issue dealing with it with my son afterwards. If I don't care enough about it to upset my son in getting rid of it, that's a signal to me to leave it be.

We have gotten awful gifts (and I don't mean oh no plastic, I mean 'here's a windup toy for your 14 month old, but be careful of the rusted nail because you cut your finger on that in 1972'), but I still wouldn't trade the day of the gift for any other day. However that toy did disappear rather swiftly... I mean a rusted nail sticking out it.

As for whether other people should conform to my ecological values well, you know, it's really not for me to tell them what to do. (Also, I'm not really a paragon of virtue, although I keep trying to improve every year. But there are things I feel strongly about, like sexist stuff, that I really am on the front lines about.) I don't personally believe that rejecting a _gift_ will make someone more likely to be thoughtful about the planet or even my feelings; I think it will probably make them defensive and angry and upset. There are many, many, many other ways and opportunities to go at it.

I completely agree with the sentiment that trying to control every piece of 'stuff' in our homes when we have families really is the same as trying to get all the right labels or collect every Barbie or whatever. When we give THINGS more attention than PEOPLE, I think we are generally on the wrong path... I guess that's the new-agey side of me talking.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
While gifting in relation to Christmas hasn't been around as an established cultural event for more than 150(ish) years, gifting at various holidays and events has been around since we walked out of the caves (and was probably around before then). And you hit the nail on the head. Gifting is about POWER.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. But I think one way to untangle -- or at least recognize -- the emotions that come with gifting and receiving gifts is to understand the social imperative driving the gift-giving ritual.

It's about establishing and re-establishing connections. Between friends, allies, associates, relatives, future relatives, neighbors, employees, employers...choosing the "right" gift, correctly reading the person you're giving a gift so that you give them something of equivalent value to what they're giving you (and reading the relationship correctly that they ARE giving you a gift) -- OR giving or receiving a gift that's significantly higher in value than the one given in recognition of a dominant/sub power relationship -- demonstrating affection and loyalty to a person. And so on and so forth.

Christmas and gift-giving changed a lot in the mid-1800s as the middle-class child-focused family arose, and I think that muddied the waters a lot in terms of our understanding of the emotional drive behind gift-giving and receiving. Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it helps to understand the history behind it to know why we've got generations of expectations and emotions bearing down on us around the holidays.

I actually have a lot of fun with this time of year. I love the hunt for a good deal, crafting and creating gifts, finding something that someone's been looking for -- or something that they didn't know they wanted -- and getting together with family. I enjoy it. But I don't take it too seriously. My family's made something of a game out of picking up hints someone's dropped (whether they meant to or not), sometimes months before Christmas, and creating a wish list for that person around things they've admired or commented on. Sometimes there's a miss, but usually, the result is some crazily creative, welcome gifts of varying monetary value but that carry a lot of emotional value. Or they're just humorous. It's fun. And that's the power my family has given to the whole gifting process.

Thank you, this is what I was trying to say.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't finished the thread yet, but my initial thoughts on this...

IME, the people I know who overdo it the most are people who are really unhappy, in general. The moms who spend a fortune buying whatever the hot new toy is, are mostly the moms who don't have much of a relationship with their kids. The relatives who insist on piling stuff on people are really disconnected from those people. There's a powerful cultural message that lots of stuff shows that you care, and I think people try to make themselves care or convince themselves they care by buying lots of stuff. Plus...buying stuff, _especially_ when you just buy the current "it" thing, doesn't have any risks. You don't have to take a chance that the person will reject _you_ (although I'm sure it still stings to have your gift rejected). They're just rejecting...stuff. Brownie points, an illusion of connectedness, and freedom from personal risk...and it just means racking up the credit card a little higher. It's _easy_.

Stuff also provides an easy way to try to get power over people, if one is so inclined. Manipulators often provide stuff to get a handle on people. Attempts to actually buy someone are real, and very unpleasant. People who think that way can easily get into the mindset that if they give so-and-so more stuff than anyone else does, then so-and-so _has_ to love them more.

And, on the other side of it...there are people I know who really do convince themselves over and over that this toy or that jacket will change their lives and things will be better. If they have the right jacket, they'll be happier. If they have the right toy, more friends will play with them. If they have the right car, the neighbours will respect them more. I'd like to blame marketing (because marketing and advertising drive me batty), but I think it's all more deeply rooted than that. How long have we had the bizarre notion that someone with more money must be more respectable? How long have people touted someone else's financial situation as some kind of proof that the person is somehow superior (how often does "good family" not have some connotation of "they have/had money", for example?) to others?

I'm going somewhere with this, but I'm not sure where, and I think I'm being a little incoherent. DH and I watched What Would Jesus Buy? last night, so I've been thinking about these things a lot. It's a cliche, but it all seems very empty.

I believe it's important to be gracious. I will say that if I _knew_ someone only bought a gift for my kids to piss me off, they wouldn't be giving my child a gift again. That kind of thing is just sick, and it has no place in my life.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Can you understand that one might interfere with the other? That when you have relatives who, when not given explicit boundaries, spend themselves halfway into massive debt so that there are piles of presents that take the entire day to open, that that might actually influence your ability to maintain other traditions, like playing a game together or going for a walk in the snow?

But I think for me, I don't understand why other people spending their money should affect things like playing games or taking walks. If other people choose to go into debt, that is their choice and it's not my place to tell them how to spend money.

If people ask, of course it's appropriate to give ideas and keep them small if you like, but I just don't see any polite way to tell people "don't give us gifts" any more than there is to say "buy us more gifts." It's two sides of the same coin to me. The only thing you can control are your own feelings and actions.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
Again as a christian, I don't care so much about etiquette but it's really hard to go against that because people don't see your intentions as good or worthy if you don't follow it.

How does being a Christian mean you shouldn't care about etiquette?


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
While gifting in relation to Christmas hasn't been around as an established cultural event for more than 150(ish) years, gifting at various holidays and events has been around since we walked out of the caves (and was probably around before then). And you hit the nail on the head. Gifting is about POWER.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. But I think one way to untangle -- or at least recognize -- the emotions that come with gifting and receiving gifts is to understand the social imperative driving the gift-giving ritual.

It's about establishing and re-establishing connections. Between friends, allies, associates, relatives, future relatives, neighbors, employees, employers...choosing the "right" gift, correctly reading the person you're giving a gift so that you give them something of equivalent value to what they're giving you (and reading the relationship correctly that they ARE giving you a gift) -- OR giving or receiving a gift that's significantly higher in value than the one given in recognition of a dominant/sub power relationship -- demonstrating affection and loyalty to a person. And so on and so forth.

Christmas and gift-giving changed a lot in the mid-1800s as the middle-class child-focused family arose, and I think that muddied the waters a lot in terms of our understanding of the emotional drive behind gift-giving and receiving. Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it helps to understand the history behind it to know why we've got generations of expectations and emotions bearing down on us around the holidays.

I actually have a lot of fun with this time of year. I love the hunt for a good deal, crafting and creating gifts, finding something that someone's been looking for -- or something that they didn't know they wanted -- and getting together with family. I enjoy it. But I don't take it too seriously. My family's made something of a game out of picking up hints someone's dropped (whether they meant to or not), sometimes months before Christmas, and creating a wish list for that person around things they've admired or commented on. Sometimes there's a miss, but usually, the result is some crazily creative, welcome gifts of varying monetary value but that carry a lot of emotional value. Or they're just humorous. It's fun. And that's the power my family has given to the whole gifting process.

My MIL uses gift giving as a way to communicate what she feels your position is in "her family". She gives me second hand or re-gifts to me for b-days, while she give SIL new thoughtful gifts. For x-mas (even though dh has asked her not to) she insists on getting "her kids" gifts baskets full of pointless junk. It wasn't until my dh was in his late 20's that she stopped giving him a stocking from santa!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
It wasn't until my dh was in his late 20's that she stopped giving him a stocking from santa!

I understand that in your DH's family there isn't a good dynamic. But I don't think that stockings from santa are "weird"... My in-laws do one for each of us, themselves included, and it's pretty fun. They aren't elaborate or expensive, but have alot of good childhood memories attached to them. (They have some chocolate, maybe a hat and something else small).


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Why didn't you insert your gifts under one of the various trees you were at so that the presents got opened?

I'm really confused. That's what happens in my family. Everyone comes to my parents bearing gifts, those gifts all get scattered around the tree and opened as they are selected. I would never occur to me to hold presents back and expect other people to make a "special time" for us to give DD something. If I did then I sure would pencil in a time for it.

We want our birthday present to her to be "special" and we don't really feel like only giving her a $15 second hand trike in front of my family who have all probably spent 2 or 3 times as much on her (if not more). So we are going to give it to her at our house before going to my parents.

I am going to try very hard not to feel the need to defend our actions in the situation. Obviously if it were as easy as this, it would not have been a problem. The little girl in tears before she had even waded through half of the gifts in the final stop was of much more importance to us than carving out time to have her open our gift. Since half of the gifts were not open, my kid was in tears, and there was a bunch of relatives waiting to see her get to their gifts, all bets/plans/sanity had left the room. We did not expect people to "make a special time" for it. Again, obviously, since our families did not even know about it we were not expecting them to do such a thing. It is just very sad that the piles of gifts, the time it took to open them, and the resulting meltdown created a situation in which we were not able to enjoy the act of gifting our own child one gift on Christmas. Is that really hard to understand?


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I haven't finished the thread yet, but my initial thoughts on this...

IME, the people I know who overdo it the most are people who are really unhappy, in general. The moms who spend a fortune buying whatever the hot new toy is, are mostly the moms who don't have much of a relationship with their kids. The relatives who insist on piling stuff on people are really disconnected from those people. There's a powerful cultural message that lots of stuff shows that you care, and I think people try to make themselves care or convince themselves they care by buying lots of stuff. Plus...buying stuff, _especially_ when you just buy the current "it" thing, doesn't have any risks. You don't have to take a chance that the person will reject _you_ (although I'm sure it still stings to have your gift rejected). They're just rejecting...stuff. Brownie points, an illusion of connectedness, and freedom from personal risk...and it just means racking up the credit card a little higher. It's _easy_.

Stuff also provides an easy way to try to get power over people, if one is so inclined. Manipulators often provide stuff to get a handle on people. Attempts to actually buy someone are real, and very unpleasant. People who think that way can easily get into the mindset that if they give so-and-so more stuff than anyone else does, then so-and-so _has_ to love them more.

And, on the other side of it...there are people I know who really do convince themselves over and over that this toy or that jacket will change their lives and things will be better. If they have the right jacket, they'll be happier. If they have the right toy, more friends will play with them. If they have the right car, the neighbours will respect them more. I'd like to blame marketing (because marketing and advertising drive me batty), but I think it's all more deeply rooted than that. How long have we had the bizarre notion that someone with more money must be more respectable? How long have people touted someone else's financial situation as some kind of proof that the person is somehow superior (how often does "good family" not have some connotation of "they have/had money", for example?) to others?

I'm going somewhere with this, but I'm not sure where, and I think I'm being a little incoherent. DH and I watched What Would Jesus Buy? last night, so I've been thinking about these things a lot. It's a cliche, but it all seems very empty.

I believe it's important to be gracious. I will say that if I _knew_ someone only bought a gift for my kids to piss me off, they wouldn't be giving my child a gift again. That kind of thing is just sick, and it has no place in my life.

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing it


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I am going to try very hard not to feel the need to defend our actions in the situation. Obviously if it were as easy as this, it would not have been a problem. The little girl in tears before she had even waded through half of the gifts in the final stop was of much more importance to us than carving out time to have her open our gift. Since half of the gifts were not open, my kid was in tears, and there was a bunch of relatives waiting to see her get to their gifts, all bets/plans/sanity had left the room. We did not expect people to "make a special time" for it. Again, obviously, since our families did not even know about it we were not expecting them to do such a thing. It is just very sad that the piles of gifts, the time it took to open them, and the resulting meltdown created a situation in which we were not able to enjoy the act of gifting our own child one gift on Christmas. *Is that really hard to understand?*

If you want an honest answer, then yes! It is hard to understand.

My niece and nephew are the ones with the giant gift piles (1st of each gender for my parents). They're the ones that have been in tears about Christmas presents and whose parents sat there and didn't try to teach them anything about graciously accepting gifts. But those times are long gone. My parents now spend the same money they used to spend on 1 or 2 grandchildren on 10 and my kid will never be there. And that sucks. She's so far down the line of grandkids that no one could care one little bit about her on Christmas. Her birthday is pretty much the only time she gets in the spotlight at all, but she shares even that. And my family doesn't think birthdays are important.

Our position is so far from yours that I really can't understand where you are coming from. I would LOVE for my kid, just once, to be given more presents that she wants to open.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 

If people ask, of course it's appropriate to give ideas and keep them small if you like, but I just don't see any polite way to tell people "don't give us gifts" any more than there is to say "buy us more gifts." It's two sides of the same coin to me. The only thing you can control are your own feelings and actions.

Is there a polite way to say "the gifting in our lives is starting to have a real negative effect on our family, can we talk about it?" Etiquette says no but I have to believe that as rational people that love and care about each other, being honest can't be that bad.

As for people who use gifts as a way to manipulate people, that's tough. Sometimes people do not even know they are doing it. Or they might have this fault but otherwise be loving people in your lives. We have a little of that going on in our family and so far I choose to ignore it, but I can see from reading responses on here and it is a real and large problem in some families


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How long have we had the bizarre notion that someone with more money must be more respectable? How long have people touted someone else's financial situation as some kind of proof that the person is somehow superior (how often does "good family" not have some connotation of "they have/had money", for example?) to others?

From the beginning of time... The tribe who could hunt better, find better food, make better tools/weapons did better in the world. They were more likely to survive the lean times and be the ones to have the good hunting territory.

It's very basic for people to want more and to do better. Very primitive and deeply routed in humanity.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
If you want an honest answer, then yes! It is hard to understand.

My niece and nephew are the ones with the giant gift piles (1st of each gender for my parents). They're the ones that have been in tears about Christmas presents and whose parents sat there and didn't try to teach them anything about graciously accepting gifts. But those times are long gone. My parents now spend the same money they used to spend on 1 or 2 grandchildren on 10 and my kid will never be there. And that sucks. She's so far down the line of grandkids that no one could care one little bit about her on Christmas. Her birthday is pretty much the only time she gets in the spotlight at all, but she shares even that. And my family doesn't think birthdays are important.

Our position is so far from yours that I really can't understand where you are coming from. I would LOVE for my kid, just once, to be given more presents that she wants to open.

That is really too bad and my heart does go out to you and yours









ETA: Dd was not in tears because she did not like the gifts or was being ungracious. She has an old soul and has deep feelings of gratitude when anyone does anything for her. She was in tears because she was tired, overwhelmed, and had been in the spotlight for going on 24 hours at that point. She is (and likely will always be) the only grandchild/niece on both sides of a fairly large family. These people (most of them anyway) mean well and just want to share the holiday with the only child in their lives. it is not something I ever want to take away from them. I just wish there were an unhurtful way to discuss the amount and size of gifts.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Is there a polite way to say "the gifting in our lives is starting to have a real negative effect on our family, can we talk about it?" Etiquette says no but I have to believe that as rational people that love and care about each other, being honest can't be that bad.

There is a polite way to do it. You sit down with people and say "we have a small house and it's really hard when DD gets so many toys like last year because we just don't have room for them. Do you guys think that maybe we could all go in on a couple of bigger (not size buy value) things this year?"

And you wait and see what they say.

What etiquette say is wrong is to try to actually control what they give. Making suggestions, especially ones with reasons behind them, is always OK if you are close to the people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Oh sure! But in the context in families, I really can't get past the idea that so much of it has to do with respect. Purposely spiting someone through gifts, and being passive aggressive through children? Why would people like that hae the opportunity to give your child a gift in the first place?

This is a huge part of the puzzle. I have one person in my life where this is a _bit_ of an issue...but not much of one. If it became bigger, then we'd get into a big, ugly mess, and I really hope to avoid that. So far, there's no issue. She gets what she gets, we say "thank you", and then I cringe over the new toy dd1 loves that I hate...

Quote:

In fact, I think the more emphasis is placed on "buy this" or "don't buy that", the more the stuff ends up having power over us again. Kinda like the bully philosophy. If you ignore them they'll leave you alone. I think the holidays, and life in general, have become so materialistic because that's what people focus on.
I think there's a lot of truth to this, but the overall picture is more complicated (isn't it always?), imo, because of this:

Quote:

And yet some people are actually distraught over the giving and receiving of gifts. <snip>

"Things" have power over us because we allow it! Even if I had weird relatives with exorbitant gift giving practices, food and traditions would STILL be what I'm focusing on. Because that's what is important!

<snip>

In terms of the inlaw threads and gift giving dilemmas, all these issues seem self inflicted to me.







There is so much more to life than worrying about THINGS. And if we worry about things - how much of them, what they're made of, etc - I think they're still garnering the attention that we are sometimes trying to avoid.
I can remember threads here where people were describing children in tears, because grandma/grandpa/random aunt (usually a grandma, for whatever reason) was insisting that the child(ren) open all the rest of the gifts, and the child(ren) had already opened 10 or 12 or 14 and was over-stimulated and upset and freaking out. Then, the poster would have to make 2 or 3 trips in their car to get all the stuff home...and then figure out what to do with it. This does boil back down to respect, but it's definitely not self-inflicted, yk? This kind of thing is a legitimate problem and it's _very_ difficult to address. The cultural "you should be grateful/you should appreciate it" messages don't help, either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I remember my mom starting Christmas shopping in October and putting stuff in a box and locking it up in the carport. I use to think she was the world's stingiest person for locking up a bottle of gherkin pickles in October. But the fact was, having a 3 dollar bottle of gherkin pickles on christmas eve HAD to be budgeted for 3 months in advance, or we didn't have it.

I think it's awesome that she did that, but I can certainly understand why you saw it that way as a kid.

Quote:

because I have never, ever, met a low income person/family who has complained about a gift. (And that's spanning my childhood and early adulthood in the low income/subsidized housing I've lived in all my life.) Now we're a middle to upper class family and this (not wanting certain "things") phenomenon is way too common. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but it doesn't influence my opinions on the nature of graciously accepting gifts.
Also anecdotally, the two people I've known who complain the most vociferously about not getting exactly what they want, and who have always been the most inclined to demand certain gifts from people, are both low income. I don't think income level/class really has all that much to do with it, but I'll admit I'm not middle/upper class (lower middle class, if that). Maybe it gets more...cutthroat, if people have more to start with? I don't know.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think that part of the problem is that we want to outdo what we've done before. Many parents want to give their children more than they had as kids, and more than they gave them last year. *We just keep upping the ante. We want the kids to be wowed on Christmas morning.* I think its a fairy natural human tendency.

I agree with this, but with respect to the bold, I want to add that this is a very specific, partly media-driven issue, imo.

My parents never upped the ante, and we were always "wowed" on Christmas morning. One year, my dad happened to get a pool table for cheap (really cheap - he may have been given it). That was _huge_ - absolutely _huge_. You know what? We didn't get anything even close to that big the next year...and we were still wowed. Somehow, we have this weird idea that we have to do bigger and "better" every year, or Christmsa will be this huge letdown for our kids.

My son wanted a chocolate hedgehog last year. That's all he wanted - a chocolate hedgehog. We didn't have to up any ante to wow him. I don't think we give kids enough credit.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

I can remember threads here where people were describing children in tears, because grandma/grandpa/random aunt (usually a grandma, for whatever reason) was insisting that the child(ren) open all the rest of the gifts, and the child(ren) had already opened 10 or 12 or 14 and was over-stimulated and upset and freaking out. Then, the poster would have to make 2 or 3 trips in their car to get all the stuff home...and then figure out what to do with it. This does boil back down to respect, but it's definitely not self-inflicted, yk? This kind of thing is a legitimate problem and it's _very_ difficult to address. The cultural "you should be grateful/you should appreciate it" messages don't help, either.


This is a big part of my concern as this exact scenario happens to us on an annual basis. And yes, it is difficult to address.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Maybe the reason I haven't "gotten" this is because I just don't have this problem and can't imagine it. People ask me what my kids want, I say, "Don't feel like you have to spend much! They love everything!" And so my parents will get my older dd like one board game or something, and she'll love it and think it's amazing. I don't have anyone spending hundreds of dollars on my kids.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
This is a big part of my concern as this exact scenario happens to us on an annual basis. And yes, it is difficult to address.

So why not tell them the facts. Leave the emotional stuff out of it, but just tell them that your house is small and they gave too many toys last year. Be prepared that they likely have a $ figure they want to spend and so make a couple of suggestions for some pricey items your DD would like. That way they can spend the money they want to spend and there are less gifts to open and take home.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am reallynot "allowed" to have any *control* over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?

I wanted to re-read the OP because I can get distracted by side topics very easily and I wanted to address this specific part. The word control in this context is interesting to me. Through the years with my son I realized that my participation in his life was not control but rather guidance. In reality I can't control the rest of the world and its messages to my son but I can guide/teach him to be able to deal with the input in a positive and healthy matter. Yes, my MIL strives towards the quantity over quality present goal and I don't really say much in the matter. I let her know that we would prefer that she picks out a few special items rather than a bag full that's bigger than he is but that's all I can do is ask. I can't control her and I accept that. What I can do is teach my son through words and actions that this is a way that gramma shows her love and that Oma shows it in different ways. I think part of our culture's sickness is trying to control others.

...back to thinking...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Our position is so far from yours that I really can't understand where you are coming from. I would LOVE for my kid, just once, to be given more presents that she wants to open.

Why? I don't understand this, either. I can't imagine _wanting_ my child to be overloaded, overwhelmed and in tears. (This is so much more than just more than she "wants to open" - and in this situation, there's almost always someone insisting that the child open every single one of them.) If I were dying of thirst, I'd very much appreciate access to all the water I wanted to drink - but I wouldn't appreciate being thrown into an ocean to drown.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
I wanted to re-read the OP because I can get distracted by side topics very easily and I wanted to address this specific part. The word control in this context is interesting to me. Through the years with my son I realized that my participation in his life was not control but rather guidance. In reality I can't control the rest of the world and its messages to my son but I can guide/teach him to be able to deal with the input in a positive and healthy matter. Yes, my MIL strives towards the quantity over quality present goal and I don't really say much in the matter. I let her know that we would prefer that she picks out a few special items rather than a bag full that's bigger than he is but that's all I can do is ask. I can't control her and I accept that. What I can do is teach my son through words and actions that this is a way that gramma shows her love and that Oma shows it in different ways. I think part of our culture's sickness is trying to control others.

...back to thinking...

I agree about the wanting to control others thing. But...the OP wasn't talking about wanting to control what her child got. She was talking about wanting to control _her living space_. It puts people in a very awkward position when they're receiving gifts that are crowding them out of their own space...and it's even worse when the people giving the gifts are attaching all kinds of crap to them, _and_ the children who get them love them to bits and can't stand the idea of being separated from them.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i think to me gifts is not so much about consumerism as much as about communication.

mind you though my family lives 3000 miles away so i dont have to worry about gifts...

... however everywhere this subject comes up it reminds me so much of lack of communication with family.

for instance even if my mom was here, she would never use gifts to spite me or go against me. we have talked about toys and kinda come to a middle ground, where my mom gets some she wants which i am not too thrilled about when we do visit. but i have other family members who do use gifts to 'make a statement'.

the sadest part is the duty aspect of gifts. its no longer a joy kinda thing. its become duty. if you are going to a bday party you better take a gift.

i am really torn on not asking for gifts from dd. i know the invitees want to bring something. some sort of contribution. they all have a need to contribute. and i am always looking for some meaningful way to help them fulfill their need to contribute without telling them what to do. for many donating to a cause does not make them feel they are contributing. they want to give directly to the child. now. clothes, college funds are in the future. but they want something for the child NOW. in a way we have managed that by saying rewrap what you have at home and do a gift exchange, or have the child make something. she is 7 so she and her friends can do it.

i love gifts. i love buying them. i love getting them. gifts are a part of almost every culture. for many a respect kinda thing. for instance with the native american before they hunt or after the hunt they offer the hunted a gift of tobacco to their spirit thanking them for providing nutrition for the body.

gifts are meant to be meaningful. i think we have lost some of that.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
she insists on getting "her kids" gifts baskets full of pointless junk. It wasn't until my dh was in his late 20's that she stopped giving him a stocking from santa!

LOL WE still get stockings from Santa (DH and I are 37) ALL of us do!! Dh and I have one for each of the 3 of us....we go to my parents and we all get them there (as do my parents) then we go to DH's family where stockings are a leg of a panty-hose crammed packed with wrapped little gifts (both fun and practical). It takes about 2+hours to open them there....it is a tonne of fun and we all take turns (this includes his aunt, dad, dad's wife, the 3 of us and up util last Christmas his gran)....to not have this would be a sad loss of tradition.


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

This is an interesting thread. One of the most interesting I've seen on here in a long while.

We are lucky. We have enough without being wealthy. We have 4 loving grandparents who are generous but not absurd with their gift giving. Yet we have still run into some of these problems, though not in as extreme of a way as some of you have.

I think the person who said gift giving is about power was really onto something though I haven't sorted out yet if that applies to my personal situation.

I did want to note to the original poster that yes, I understand where you're coming from. It's not that bad around here, but we had a couple of Christmases that were headed that way. We were also the last of the kids to have kids so the last to produce a grandchild and I know how that can sometimes work out badly and painfully, though in our case not so much about gifts.

Still, I actually recommend gentle conversations with the givers on this topic if at all possible. We started this a few years ago. My parents got better immediately. For them, they had to *learn* how to be grandparents. My brother has more money than we do and loves to have loads of presents so for him, my parents presents were just part of the mix. We are aiming for something smaller and less commercial and they were swamping us. It turns out, my mom was using the logic she used when we were growing up. She'd say, well, it wasn't that much that I bought: a couple of toys, a few books, new pajamas, stuff for the stocking, maybe a CD or a DVD, clothes that s/he needs anyway, etc. That IS what she bought us growing up, but our *grandparents* got us one toy or one book or even just a new hat and mittens. Etiquette made that first conversation about cutting back really hard, but it went better than expected. We aren't down to one gift yet, but things are a lot better.

We had the discussion again this year. We had fallen into a pattern of providing detailed lists for both sets of grandparents and our sibs and we hated that. It felt weird even though it's what they asked us to do. There were barely any surprises on Christmas morning and while we didn't like that, we also felt weirdly resentful of people buying something not on the list. It also felt like a bizarre coordination problem - reserving "the good stuff" for us to give, assigning other stuff to appropriate grandparents, etc. Just weird and yucky.

This year, we reiterated *don't give too much*. We did not provide "the list" but instead gave the grandparents some general stuff that the kids like: i.e., DD is book crazy, lacks blocks, and is starting to be really into clothes. DS adores spies, legos and Star Wars. This felt a lot better than: Please get DS lego set model #whatever.

I'm rambling a bit now, but sort of also exploring solutions to the problem. We are having success with my parents, but not so much with my ILs. They are not unhappy people and they know our children really well. Some of their gifts will be right on the money, but there will be too many of them and plenty of them will be cheap crap that breaks, causing heart ache for the kids. We have told them explicitly that they do not have to give our kids the same amount as they give their other grandchildren (though I know the other set of parents is also working to get them to cut back). I do not think that they believe that gift giving is the only way, or the best way, to show love. Why do they do this then?

1. I think they are sometimes genuinely fooled by the cheap crap.
2. Habit.
3. They see something and think how much so-and-so would like it but in their quest to be relentlessly fair, that means they have to buy another gift for each of the other grandchildren, whether they can think of something appropriate or not.
4. Both families will buy something less than wonderful if it is a good enough deal.

Even though I think they sort of understand where we're coming from, it's like they can't help themselves. Again, we're lucky so the amount of all this stuff is only sometimes overwhelming on Christmas itself and we can manage it mostly.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 
But I think for me, I don't understand why other people spending their money should affect things like playing games or taking walks.

Because there are only so many hours in the day, and it takes time for children to open gifts.

Here are the basic options:

1. Establish some gentle, reasonable guidelines ahead of time. Give people plenty of notice.

2. Stop in the middle of gift opening to go do other things, which means that gift opening could stretch for days or weeks and the giver would not see most of the opening.

Are you suggesting that the first is more rude than the second?

And yes, other people going into debt does matter to me because these people have asked us for loans and asked us to chip in on gifts they have already purchased.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Honestly, no. Having a room full of stuff is a minor inconvenience, sure. But you seem to think a room full of presents will actually prevent you from doing the things that ARE important to you, which I honestly can't wrap my brain around. If you don't WANT to spend all day opening gifts, don't. If it's important to play a game, play a game. If you want to walk in the snow, walk in the snow.









Honestly, if you haven't been in this situation and are unwilling to turn on your empathy switch, I'm not sure you can understand.

OP, again, I totally get it. We have dealt with this by setting gentle guidelines with the relatives who are prone to excess. We don't care *what* they buy, we just need to restrict it to reasonable quantities for our own sanity and also to be able to transport the gifts home and fit them into our tiny house.

We set a maximum of four gifts from each household. I think that is PLENTY of gifts. Quite frankly, my preference would be one or two gifts for DS and a card for DH and me, but I recognize how hard that could be for the people in question, so I haven't gone there. We've asked them to please donate anything over four to a local charity that helps make the holidays better for children whose families are living in much tougher conditions than ours.

I think it's a totally reasonable approach, and, so far, it has made the holidays way less stressful for us, not to mention other family members who supported our idea that perhaps we don't need to flood the living room with wrapped boxes in order to have a nice holiday.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I don't personally believe that rejecting a _gift_ will make someone more likely to be thoughtful about the planet or even my feelings; I think it will probably make them defensive and angry and upset. There are many, many, many other ways and opportunities to go at it.

This really resonates with me. And is perhaps the biggest reason that we don't have gift issues. Because by the time the holidays roll around we're not using gifts as a means of making a point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I can remember threads here where people were describing children in tears, because grandma/grandpa/random aunt (usually a grandma, for whatever reason) was insisting that the child(ren) open all the rest of the gifts, and the child(ren) had already opened 10 or 12 or 14 and was over-stimulated and upset and freaking out. Then, the poster would have to make 2 or 3 trips in their car to get all the stuff home...and then figure out what to do with it. *This does boil back down to respect, but it's definitely not self-inflicted, yk?* This kind of thing is a legitimate problem and it's _very_ difficult to address. The cultural "you should be grateful/you should appreciate it" messages don't help, either.

Having people in your life that do not respect you is not self inflicted. It's the turmoil caused by how you deal with it that is. A lot of people are conflating "etiquette" with confronting someone about their lack of respect, and I think there is a huge difference between the two. Expecting my crying daughter to continue opening gifts would be completely inappropriate and would happen for all of 2 seconds and never again. Stressing over it year after year? Self inflicted. It needs to be dealt with.

Quote:

I think it's awesome that she did that, but I can certainly understand why you saw it that way as a kid.
A lot of the stuff she did didn't become clear until I was an adult (and a parent).


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Honestly, if you haven't been in this situation and are unwilling to turn on your empathy switch, I'm not sure you can understand.

I'm in that situation, in the physical sense, every year. We usually host christmas and it's a ZOO here. It's a minor inconvenience, but I don't let it ruin christmas or dictate other the traditions or activities we do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Is there a polite way to say "the gifting in our lives is starting to have a real negative effect on our family, can we talk about it?" Etiquette says no but I have to believe that as rational people that love and care about each other, being honest can't be that bad.

I have a hypothetical question that this kind of triggered, though I'm not necessarily asking you... how can family members who care about each other be blind to issues that are important to one another? Is this a closeness issue? Like more of a problem for families who don't live near each other and only get together on special occasions? Or maybe not a distance issue, but a relationship that's lacking a real connection? But there's an obligation to get together on the holidays even though you know nothing about your family members?

I'm starting to wonder if these issues aren't directly related to the quality of the relationship between the gift givers and receivers. I mean, how can you not realize that someone doesn't have room for 3 CAR LOADS of stuff? My sister lives in a tiny 2 bedroom basement suite and barely has room for the baby gear she has now. How on Earth could I load her up with 3 cars loads of crap and then claim to care about her?

I think we might also be confusing "care" with "well meaning". I think people can go WAY over board and mean well (over compensating for not seeing the kids more, not having toys as a kid themselves, etc), but with a little more _care_ they might realize their gift(s) is not practical. I could go out and drop a load on gifts for my nephew and chalk it up to being excited, he is my first nephew after all. And I don't live near them so I could argue that it's to make up for lost opportunities to get him stuff. My heart would be in the right place. But I don't think that would be the caring thing to do KNOWING my sister's living arrangements.

Which brings me to wondering why gifts are being exchanged by people who don't know each other well? Is it because we're obligated due to that person's family rank? Like immediate family? THAT is what feels materialistic to me - that society has determined that mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers must all exchange gifts even though you don't know what the person wants or what is/isn't important to them. And if that situation is as stressful as it is for some people, why do they do it repeatedly year after year?


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

This is something I think about a lot. As a culture we are afflicted by afluenze and we have so much stuff. Our houses get bigger and bigger and filled with more and more. It comes at a cost because this stuff comes from resources that sre in limited quanity. Us having lots of stuff and not paying much for those resources or using covert and overt means to obtain them mean others in other parts of the world go poor. To live sustainably we must live with less but stuff is only part of the equation.

Growing up I lived in a place where materialism was rampant. At Christmas my parents would save a little year round and then shop the sales and got us a couple of toys that were too expensive. I had enough toys and I should of been so grateful for what I did get and what my Grandma got me but I always would be a little jealous.

My best friends parents had more money and they went all out for Christmas and they got tons of clothes from the designer stores, the latest video game system and lots of expensive toys. We would go to my cousins houses and they all got way more gifts than me too. We had a big extended family and everyone would brag about what they got. My Aunts and Uncles didn't get gifts for all their nieces and nephews because there was too many but they would buy for their favorites who were much better off than my family and I watch them open stuff. I should of been grateful for what I did have but I was a little jealous. It took me until I was a teenager to really understand why things don't mean anything and the true cost of things.

Now that I have two kids of my own I try to limit stuff and I really want them to understand that stuff isn't that important. I get them occaisonal toys from the thrift store and most of the clothes I buy comes from there too. At Christmas and birthdays and other occaisons the Granparents especially on my husbands side go all out. My kids get tons of toys and clothes. My MIL judges that I get stuff at the thrift store. I appreciate that people are thinking of my kids and get them gifts. I like seeing my kids excited to get stuff from their Granparents but I am scared that my kids will miss the message about trying to buy used when possible and living simply will get lost.

I worry about the influnce of the media and their peers. My kids don't watch tv now but they might eventually want to watch it. At the same time kids do need some toys to play with and I do like to get them something special for Christmas and their Birthdays.

I live in a small place to keep it simple but there are so many toys and clothes and clutter that I long for a bigger place and then feel guilty for it. My dd is super picky about clothes and wears like two of the dresses in her closet that is full of clothes.

I don't know what the answer is. I do appreciate people thinking of my kids and getting gifts for them. The Grandparents don't really understand at all about why we live simply and why I like to get things second hand. The one thing I want my kids to learn about is that we must live in a way that is sustainable and I worry that will get lost in the culture we live in.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'm in that situation, in the physical sense, every year. We usually host christmas and it's a ZOO here. It's a minor inconvenience, but I don't let it ruin christmas or dictate other the traditions or activities we do.

When you host, you have a lot more control. It can much more complex at others' homes.

May I ask how long it takes you to open gifts given that you face the same situation every year?

And I'm not sure if you've read my posts, but we've actually dealt with this quite effectively and in a way that totally works for us. We don't let it ruin Christmas, either, *because we set limits on the total number of items we will accept*.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I'd like to address the question of whether or not etiquette allows you to discuss gift-giving at all....

Of course it does! Especially with close family! Last year in my family the adults decided to donate money to a shelter instead of exchanging gifts. Because we all talked and agreed that we all had plenty of *stuff* and didn't need more. And because it would free up time to hang out together and have meals and enjoy each other's company.

Of course you can have that kind of conversation. What you can't say is "We're sick of the boatloads of crap you give us each year. Knock it off, willya?"

You say, "You know, space is tight in our house. We just don't have room for many giant toys. Can we talk about cutting back a bit from now on?"

This way you aren't dictating, or demanding, but opening a dialogue.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'm in that situation, in the physical sense, every year. We usually host christmas and it's a ZOO here. It's a minor inconvenience, but I don't let it ruin christmas or dictate other the traditions or activities we do.

I have a hypothetical question that this kind of triggered, though I'm not necessarily asking you... how can family members who care about each other be blind to issues that are important to one another? Is this a closeness issue? Like more of a problem for families who don't live near each other and only get together on special occasions? Or maybe not a distance issue, but a relationship that's lacking a real connection? But there's an obligation to get together on the holidays even though you know nothing about your family members?

I'm starting to wonder if these issues aren't directly related to the quality of the relationship between the gift givers and receivers. I mean, how can you not realize that someone doesn't have room for 3 CAR LOADS of stuff? My sister lives in a tiny 2 bedroom basement suite and barely has room for the baby gear she has now. How on Earth could I load her up with 3 cars loads of crap and then claim to care about her?

I think we might also be confusing "care" with "well meaning". I think people can go WAY over board and mean well (over compensating for not seeing the kids more, not having toys as a kid themselves, etc), but with a little more _care_ they might realize their gift(s) is not practical. I could go out and drop a load on gifts for my nephew and chalk it up to being excited, he is my first nephew after all. And I don't live near them so I could argue that it's to make up for lost opportunities to get him stuff. My heart would be in the right place. But I don't think that would be the caring thing to do KNOWING my sister's living arrangements.

Which brings me to wondering why gifts are being exchanged by people who don't know each other well? Is it because we're obligated due to that person's family rank? Like immediate family? THAT is what feels materialistic to me - that society has determined that mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers must all exchange gifts even though you don't know what the person wants or what is/isn't important to them. And if that situation is as stressful as it is for some people, why do they do it repeatedly year after year?

Well, I'm not sure that this is the case. My MIL is the one who goes overboard with gifts in our family, and is pushing the kids to "keep opening" when they are just ready to rest a bit and look at what they have. She would be mortified if she brought them to tears, but she really overdoes the gifts.
She is also quite close to my girls, and spends a lot of time with them. She knows that we prefer less gifts, as would her other kids (especially since the year they had to make to 150km car trips to get it all home). I am not sure what the issue is - I have realized quantity is an issue for her, as I once suggested she and I go in on a more expensive gift for my niece, but she still felt the need to buy the usual amount of stuff. And for the most part it isn't really the kind of thing they would really enjoy.

It's weird, but I don't think it is about lack of care in every situation.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
When you host, you have a lot more control. It can much more complex at others' homes.

Perhaps. I'm only speaking from the perspective of hosting.

Quote:

May I ask how long it takes you to open gifts given that you face the same situation every year?
We usually start on Christmas eve. We have an appetizer party and open a few gifts (mostly corny patching PJ's and slippers so everyone looks spiffy for the the photos the next morning







) and then the next morning it takes the better part of the day. I guess if we did it all at once we could do it in 2 hours maybe? But we usually do stockings first, then the coffee and sweets come out, then a few more, then we do brunch, then a few more, and then the rest of the day is spent messing around with our new stuff. Last year we let DD open a ton on Christmas eve because we knew once she saw her new play kitchen she wouldn't want to open anything else (and really most of the stuff was not hers anyway, she got food for her kitchen and that was pretty much it). It takes us a while, and there is stuff EVERYWHERE.

Quote:

I'm not sure if you've read my posts, but we've actually dealt with this quite effectively and in a way that totally works for us. We don't let it ruin Christmas, either, *because we set limits on the total number of items we will accept*.
I wasn't necessarily meaning you.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
my sweet dh wrote an article on gift giving/from an anarchist/anticapitalist perspective, if anyone wants to read it:
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php...71214101742649

This is a great article, thanks for sharing.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 

And yes, other people going into debt does matter to me because these people have asked us for loans and asked us to chip in on gifts they have already purchased.


The two things need not have anything to do with each other. There is nothing in etiquette or social boundaries that stops you from simply saying no to these requests. By saying no, they will be forced to re-evaluate their spending or deal with their own debt. Taking on other people's issues is not required, for the gift giving or the money spent.

Honestly, the more I read about this, the more these problems seem self-inflicted. If you want to discuss guidelines with people, that is one thing. But you have made it seem like you've already tried and they don't listen. In which case, all you're doing is stressing yourself out and making what should be a happy time into something that's miserable for you. I'm not sure what exactly you want to hear. That it's ok to tell people exactly what to buy or not buy for your child? That's not something I'll ever agree with but you can do whatever you want, so I don't see what the issue is.

It really comes off like you want your relatives to feel exactly the same way as you regarding objects and that's probably not going to happen. Turning every gift giving event into an anxiety riddled nightmare because of it won't help and only comes off looking martyrish.


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## shelley4 (Sep 10, 2003)

subbing!! i find this discussion extremely interesting!


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

North_Of_60, it sounds like that works for you. That's great, seriously. That schedule would not work for us, for a variety of reasons, including other commitments and traditions that we have for Christmas Eve, and the fact that no one in the family actually wants to spend all day opening gifts. Even the excessive relatives (back when they were allowed to be excessive) would whine afterwards about how there was never a chance to play a game or go for a walk. (They were not anywhere near self-aware enough to figure out why that might be.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 
The two things need not have anything to do with each other. There is nothing in etiquette or social boundaries that stops you from simply saying no to these requests. By saying no, they will be forced to re-evaluate their spending or deal with their own debt. Taking on other people's issues is not required, for the gift giving or the money spent.

It must be lovely to live in a world in which everyone is rational and reasonable. In the real world, there is what _should_ happen, and there is what _does_ happen.

Seriously, check out behavioral economics sometime. People are not rational, especially not about money. (If negative consequences were enough to make people re-evaluate their spending or deal with their own debt, the world would be a much more financially sound place!)

You don't have to actually choose to take on someone else's issues for them to have an impact on your life. For example, many families have intertwined finances for cultural reasons.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 
Honestly, the more I read about this, the more these problems seem self-inflicted. If you want to discuss guidelines with people, that is one thing. But you have made it seem like you've already tried and they don't listen. In which case, all you're doing is stressing yourself out and making what should be a happy time into something that's miserable for you. I'm not sure what exactly you want to hear. That it's ok to tell people exactly what to buy or not buy for your child? That's not something I'll ever agree with but you can do whatever you want, so I don't see what the issue is.

It really comes off like you want your relatives to feel exactly the same way as you regarding objects and that's probably not going to happen. Turning every gift giving event into an anxiety riddled nightmare because of it won't help and only comes off looking martyrish.

Is this "you" intended to be me personally? Because if yes, you're quite mistaken. I'm sorry if my use of the present tense is confusing; I'm using it to speak factually about what it can feel like and what can happen when one has to deal this sort of excessive gift-giving. I wasn't speaking about my own current situation, because we are well past this. We dealt with it very effectively by setting limits on the number of gifts we will accept. In other words, I'm not "stressing" over gifts at all.

I do, however, have some understanding of others who are dealing with this situation, which can be way more complicated and fraught with family tension than might be possible to understand if you aren't in that situation. Not everyone is willing to risk completely jeopardizing family relationships by addressing this problem head-on.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ninetales* 
The two things need not have anything to do with each other. There is nothing in etiquette or social boundaries that stops you from simply saying no to these requests. By saying no, they will be forced to re-evaluate their spending or deal with their own debt. Taking on other people's issues is not required, for the gift giving or the money spent.

Honestly, the more I read about this, the more these problems seem self-inflicted. If you want to discuss guidelines with people, that is one thing. But you have made it seem like you've already tried and they don't listen. In which case, all you're doing is stressing yourself out and making what should be a happy time into something that's miserable for you. I'm not sure what exactly you want to hear. That it's ok to tell people exactly what to buy or not buy for your child? That's not something I'll ever agree with but you can do whatever you want, so I don't see what the issue is.

It really comes off like you want your relatives to feel exactly the same way as you regarding objects and that's probably not going to happen. Turning every gift giving event into an anxiety riddled nightmare because of it won't help and only comes off looking martyrish.

With all due respect, from your sig I gather you are awaiting your first? Now, I don't mean this as a I-Know-More-Than-You comment, but it seems clear you cannot understand where some of us are coming from.

I, too, have been in the situation where ds was surrounded by a mountain of gifts and a gaggle of adults and ready to cry because everyone is saying "open this one next". I dealt with my child having a meltdown because the toy he received broke 3 days later. I, unfortunately, have been in a situation where it was clear the grandparents took great joy in giving ds something that goes against our parenting ideals. I've had relatives sneak toy guns into my diaper bag for cripe's sakes, so I would inadvertantly take them home. A simple family visit turns into bags, if not boxes, of extra stuff in our house.

So while I would not classify our holidays with family as an "anxiety-riddled nightmare", I will say it can seriously take away from the simple joys of celebrating with family.

A problem of the privileged? Yes, most certainly. But still a problem. Calling us martyrs ain't helpin'.

I do NOT dictate what people get him. I ask to cut down on the quantity. and when I do, yes I feel like I'm breeching etiquette.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

And may I just add, before I head back to lurkdom, is that violent acts that occur on Black Friday, and the fact that a WalMart employee was trampled to death last year, does indeed indicate that our consumer-driven holidays can be quite "sick".


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

OP back







I was on the road all day driving to the scene of the crime so to speak.

Self-inflicted, huh? I dunno....short of writing off entire parts of our families, nothing so far has "worked" which is a big reason why I started this thread. As I mentioned way upstream, we have asked the relatives to limit gifts in two ways. Size (small enough to fit in our house or car if we are driving) and number. The size thing has mostly been held to but the number has been completely ignored. When I have mentioned asking relatives to limit the number of gifts in other threads, I have been told it is rude to do so. Another reason I wanted to start this thread.....

No, I am not willing to cut off family members over this. No more than I would be willing to cut great-aunt Edna out of my life because she lovingly knits me a sweater that happens to be three sizes too small.....every year. Yes, they do not understand us very well in SOME respects and yes, they have not respected our wishes to limit the number of gifts. But we do still love them and they do mean well. They try very hard to gift items dd will like. It is just FAR too much and is causing an overwhelming situation both during gift opening and when we get it all home and try to find places for everything. And not to pound this into the ground, but it is very VERY difficult to talk with dd about being environmental stewards when she is swimming in a toy store. Nevermind discussing the real meaning of Christmas







I am looking to ways to address this without being offensive.

I was thinking about this a great deal as I sat in the car for 12 hours today. I counted up about 25 people who annually give dd Christmas gifts. If they each gave just one single gift, it would still be a lot! All but a few give multiple gifts and some go hog wild. Both grandmas give as many gifts as my dh and I got from them as children. Dd gets THREE stockings from "santa" each year. None from us.

So, as I was thinking about these 25 people..... Dd is the ONLY child most of these people have anything resembling a close relationship with and she is likely the only child they give gifts to on Christmas. Dd takes great delight in having so many loving a caring people in her life! And I am delighted to "share" my dd with these people. I understand why they enjoy shopping for and watching her delight in the gifts. Most of them grew up very poor and many have shared touching experiences about having that one special aunt or family friend that went out of their way to make what might have otherwise been a bleak holiday a special experience for them when they were kids. They now want to do that for someone else. My dd. We do not live close enough for them to do some of the cool things they talk about.....being taken window shopping in a big city, being taken ice skating, treated to a fancy restaurant, making gingerbread houses, etc..... So it ends up being excessive gifting. And thus, the quandary we are in.

I fully realize that there might be no "solution". Dd will be 18 in 12 years. And will no longer be living in our house. Obviously, we will continue to model graciousness, talk about privilege and passing things on to people who can use them (although ultimately that is dd's decision), brainstorm new toy storage solutions, etc..... However, I still enjoy hashing the issue out on here and who knows, maybe I will stumble on a brilliant way for us to address this positively.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
And may I just add, before I head back to lurkdom, is that violent acts that occur on Black Friday, and the fact that a WalMart employee was trampled to death last year, does indeed indicate that our consumer-driven holidays can be quite "sick".

No kidding!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

So many interesting posts!

Someone mentioned that the aggression/resentment factor might have something to do with relationships where there is no real connection or connection is lacking. I agree--I think a lot of the issues that come up around holidays and gift giving in general have more to do with the substance or lack of, in a relationship, than the actual gift. "You don't know me!" "You don't listen to me!"

And the other thing is having too much...being lucky to have too much stuff. I've been rich and I've been poor and there have been some times when the gifts I was given at Christmas or my birthday made me cry because they were so generous! And there have been other times when they've made me cry because they were such a waste of money and harked back to the whole not feeling understood or listened to. Not because I asked for a certain thing and didn't get it, but because the gift was so outside of my lifestyle and who I am, if that makes any sense.

Gifts can sometimes be more about what/who someone wants you to be than who you really are.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This does boil back down to respect, but it's definitely not self-inflicted, yk?

yeah, when you take a disfunctional family of orgin (like mine) and add money and presents, it just makes a big mess. It's not self inflected, but we no longer do the extended family gathering and Christmas day is just DH and I and our 2 kids. That was the ONLY solution.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
(They were not anywhere near self-aware enough to figure out why that might be.)

It's amazing how little self awareness some people have, or how little they remember from the year before.

Quote:

Not everyone is willing to risk completely jeopardizing family relationships by addressing this problem head-on.
It really came down to that for us. We had to decide if we wanted a sane holiday that we could enjoy with our kids or if we wanted to see the extended family. Both were not possible. We are less close to our extended family because of that decision, but Christmas is a happy day for us now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Obviously, we will continue to model graciousness, talk about privilege and passing things on to people who can use them (although ultimately that is dd's decision),

I always wanted to be respectful of my kids' feelings about weeding out toys, but the excessive gift giving made that impossible. We HAD to pass things along, and far more things that they really wanted to get rid of. They did best if I was sneaky about.









It's really a lose-lose as a mom. Have too many toys so the child can never ever pick up (much less focus while playing) or encourage the child to get rid of things (when the child hates to part with anything) or just dispear toys (like poltical activists in 3rd world countries). The first two options made my kids sad, and the last one didn't.


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## valkynlu (Jun 8, 2007)

Its hard to add to the discussion without sounding too repetitive, so I'll go with the personal experience here.

We try to just find a balance. As someone posted before, our family generally knows our position on what we like/dislike for our children's gifts. Sometimes they stick to it, sometimes they don't. Thankfully, our family is generally poor, so they don't get LOADS of gifts. There's still too many in my book, but I know we don't have it too bad.

One thing we started asking for last year are long-term gifts. My daughter got a play kitchen that she'll use for years and that my son will use with her/after her. We want to get them an easel to paint/draw and that'll certainly get years of love. And so on. We also ask for books in lieu of cards. Why people get toddlers cards is still beyond me.

I think we'll also be putting the idea out there for non-material gifts such as BABYSITTING, gift certificates for the zoo, etc.

What we're going to start implementing this year (our oldest is 3 and is able to comprehend the purpose more), is doing an "out with the old, in the with new" approach. The week before Yule (we only do "Christmas" because of extended family), we go through the kids' toys and separate the broken toys (for the trash/recycling), the give-away toys ("for the little kids who aren't as lucky as you!") and the favorites. We keep the favorites and then have room for the new.

If I ever learn to be crafty, I really want take some of those broken toys and re-use them into a craft project of some kind. Make your own doll, sew a blanket for a new doll out of old/torn doll clothes. And so on.

Also, just to put in a different perspective on why we love giving and receiving gifts this time of year...its because we don't get a whole lot the rest of the year. Birthdays are pretty low key and our monthly budget is super tight. The end of the year is about the only time we have a little "extra" money (yay work bonus!) and I like to celebrate that. We don't get anything fancy, but definitely something extra to look forward to every year.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
So many interesting posts!

Someone mentioned that the aggression/resentment factor might have something to do with relationships where there is no real connection or connection is lacking. I agree--I think a lot of the issues that come up around holidays and gift giving in general have more to do with the substance or lack of, in a relationship, than the actual gift. "You don't know me!" "You don't listen to me!"

Gifts can sometimes be more about what/who someone wants you to be than who you really are.

Very true.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Yooper, I identify with your experience, as our first child was my inlaw's first grandchild. Christmas got nuts.

It all got better when we quit trying to please everyone else, when I started to insist on protecting my own little family on Christmas. That holiday is supposed to be fun and pleasant, not stressful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
If you want an honest answer, then yes! It is hard to understand.

My niece and nephew are the ones with the giant gift piles (1st of each gender for my parents). They're the ones that have been in tears about Christmas presents and whose parents sat there and didn't try to teach them anything about graciously accepting gifts. But those times are long gone. My parents now spend the same money they used to spend on 1 or 2 grandchildren on 10 and my kid will never be there. And that sucks. She's so far down the line of grandkids that no one could care one little bit about her on Christmas. Her birthday is pretty much the only time she gets in the spotlight at all, but she shares even that. And my family doesn't think birthdays are important.

Our position is so far from yours that I really can't understand where you are coming from. I would LOVE for my kid, just once, to be given more presents that she wants to open.

Wow, I think that's really unfortunate that you can't understand Yooper's point of view. I can actually understand both your POV and Yooper's.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

I have a hypothetical question that this kind of triggered, though I'm not necessarily asking you... how can family members who care about each other be blind to issues that are important to one another? Is this a closeness issue? Like more of a problem for families who don't live near each other and only get together on special occasions? Or maybe not a distance issue, but a relationship that's lacking a real connection? But there's an obligation to get together on the holidays even though you know nothing about your family members?

*Yes and Yes. We live 3 hours from family and they don't see DD all the time. And though they still see her frequently it is always on their turf - no one comes here, no one sees how cluttered our house is, or what she does/doesn't play with. They latch on to one thing (DD likes princesses now, so she'll get tons of princess stuff this year, 2 years ago it was Elmo). Frankly Christmas depresses me now because it shows me how little my family knows me - I either get a gift I expressly picked out via relatives wishes (ie tell me what you want for xmas down to the website link I can order it from) or I get crap that I would never use/wear/etc. Hardly ever do I get a gift I actually appreciate - something that someone who really knows me put some real thought into.*

I'm starting to wonder if these issues aren't directly related to the quality of the relationship between the gift givers and receivers. I mean, how can you not realize that someone doesn't have room for 3 CAR LOADS of stuff? My sister lives in a tiny 2 bedroom basement suite and barely has room for the baby gear she has now. How on Earth could I load her up with 3 cars loads of crap and then claim to care about her?

*For us it is a slow build. All of parents are divorced so instead of having one big christmas we have 4. Each grandparent buys for DD like they are the only grandparent she has. I swear it never occurs to them that hey, she's going to get gifts from other relatives too. So by the end of the week we end up with way more than fits in our car. I've brought it up to them and I'm met with either "I don't care, that's not my problem it's yours." or "we'll bring it down next time we visit you or you can get the rest next time you visit us." They really just don't get it at all. Or the whole put it away and give it to her later in the year. Put it away where? In the closets that are already full of toys from last year that I have been rotating all year? Or in the attic where we are storing all of her old toys and clothes for her younger sibling? I know this year is going to be bad, but I don't even want to think about next year. Next year we'll have two kids - a 2nd DD who's bday will be within a week of DD's so we'll need NOTHING for the new baby, nothing at all, not clothes, not toys, nothing. But of course they'll still have to buy tons of crap for 2nd DD anyways. I swear I'm ready to cry just thinking about it.*

I think we might also be confusing "care" with "well meaning". I think people can go WAY over board and mean well (over compensating for not seeing the kids more, not having toys as a kid themselves, etc), but with a little more _care_ they might realize their gift(s) is not practical. I could go out and drop a load on gifts for my nephew and chalk it up to being excited, he is my first nephew after all. And I don't live near them so I could argue that it's to make up for lost opportunities to get him stuff. My heart would be in the right place. But I don't think that would be the caring thing to do KNOWING my sister's living arrangements.

Which brings me to wondering why gifts are being exchanged by people who don't know each other well? Is it because we're obligated due to that person's family rank? Like immediate family? THAT is what feels materialistic to me - that society has determined that mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers must all exchange gifts even though you don't know what the person wants or what is/isn't important to them. And if that situation is as stressful as it is for some people, why do they do it repeatedly year after year?[/QUOTE]


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
Yooper, I identify with your experience, as our first child was my inlaw's first grandchild. Christmas got nuts.

It all got better when we quit trying to please everyone else, when I started to insist on protecting my own little family on Christmas. That holiday is supposed to be fun and pleasant, not stressful.

This is what I mean about some of the problems being self inflicted. I just don't understand why people continue to be a part of something that is stressful, and subsequently, unenjoyable. Going to a gathering out of _obligation_, and thus accepting the gifts, seems to perpetuate materialism and consumerism in and of itself. And furthermore, the idea that the way to deal with this is to actually dictate what other people buy and give, rather than opting out of the whole process together, is even more baffling.

If society has become sick in our materialistic consumerist ways, and we're imploring ways to heal that and teach our kids differently, why do people continue to do things (or go to functions/activities) where this very thing is perpetuated by giving gifts? Wouldn't that be the first thing to go, rather than picking off individual "things".

It seems more logical, to me anyway, to opt out of the process rather than dictate how people operate within that process. It's like everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, and that's what comes off as pretentious and rude. That everyone wants to get together with people who are obviously different in their beliefs and then tell those people how to behave. I think it's made worse by the fact that you're essentially judging people's generosity and, perhaps inadvertently, calling it inadequate. Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on toys and clutter and the environment, it never feels good to find out that what they bought for someone is not good enough or not appropriate or not appreciated. The fact that we're having a discussion on how to broach that subject without hurting people's feelings is proof of that.

So, if making someone feel inadequate for their choice of gift is the ONLY way to deal with the situation (short of putting up with it and being miserable and stressed out every year), I would have step back and carefully examine why I want to be a part of that in the first place.

From an environmental and political standpoint, I think a stronger message to one's kids about materialism and consumerism would be to first not participate in commercial holidays, rather than going around dictating what other people give to you as a gift.

If you're still reading and thinking to yourself "easier said than done".. ask yourself why you continue to take place in holiday/family get togethers if you are worried about the outcome (which is coming home with too many of the wrong gifts) and yet _continue_ to do so, especially when you're trying to send a message to your kids that less is more. Is it a sense of obligation? Not wanting to hurt people's feelings by not attending? Why the need to spare feelings in one respect, but not in the other (in terms of addressing the issue of their choice in gifts)?


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This is what I mean about some of the problems being self inflicted. I just don't understand why people continue to be a part of something that is stressful, and subsequently, unenjoyable. Going to a gathering out of _obligation_, and thus accepting the gifts, seems to perpetuate materialism and consumerism in and of itself. And furthermore, the idea that the way to deal with this is to actually dictate what other people buy and give, rather than opting out of the whole process together, is even more baffling.

If society has become sick in our materialistic consumerist ways, and we're imploring ways to heal that and teach our kids differently, why do people continue to do things (or go to functions/activities) where this very thing is perpetuated by giving gifts? Wouldn't that be the first thing to go, rather than picking off individual "things".

It seems more logical, to me anyway, to opt out of the process rather than dictate how people operate within that process. It's like everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, and that's what comes off as pretentious and rude. That everyone wants to get together with people who are obviously different in their beliefs and then tell those people how to behave. I think it's made worse by the fact that you're essentially judging people's generosity and, perhaps inadvertently, calling it inadequate. Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on toys and clutter and the environment, it never feels good to find out that what they bought for someone is not good enough or not appropriate or not appreciated. The fact that we're having a discussion on how to broach that subject without hurting people's feelings is proof of that.

So, if making someone feel inadequate for their choice of gift is the ONLY way to deal with the situation (short of putting up with it and being miserable and stressed out every year), I would have step back and carefully examine why I want to be a part of that in the first place.

From an environmental and political standpoint, I think a stronger message to one's kids about materialism and consumerism would be to first not participate in commercial holidays, rather than going around dictating what other people give to you as a gift.

If you're still reading and thinking to yourself "easier said than done".. ask yourself why you continue to take place in holiday/family get togethers if you are worried about the outcome (which is coming home with too many of the wrong gifts) and yet _continue_ to do so, especially when you're trying to send a message to your kids that less is more. Is it a sense of obligation? Not wanting to hurt people's feelings by not attending? Why the need to spare feelings in one respect, but not in the other (in terms of addressing the issue of their choice in gifts)?

I know this wasn't addressed to me as i have just finished reading the thread. But, for me, it is about family. And I WANT my kids to know great grandpa who is 80 and may not live another year and if it makes him happy to give them yet another stuffed animal or barbie or other thing we dont need/want/like/value it is more important to me to get to enjoy seeing him and keep the peace.

But, i am a horribly rude person who after the first xmas said "okay, dd has sooo much stuff so just one or two gifts is great." And for the most part it has worked. I was very careful about my wording. Since most of the various people we see during the holidays are religious and/or very family oriented i put it back to wanting it to be about the holiday and not about gifts.
DD is the first grandchild for about 8 adults and the only grandchild in town for the others. So not only does she get too many presents but she also got hand me downs from EVERYONE. Much of them lovely and in great condition. So, when given excess hand me downs we say "great, we will keep what works for us and pass along the rest. thank you."

My mom, dad, and step mom ask for a bunch of ideas, specific or general for gifts and really try and get one or two cool things they really think she would enjoy. I just had to remind them after the first xmas that dd has soooo many relatives that give her gifts. It took them out of having to fill obligated to do something crazy and it gave us all more peace.

My inlaws didnt get it. they would ask what she wanted then get a million tons of things that she didnt and it stung because she KNEW they didnt know her and felt they didnt care. When she is into karate, science, math, art, and music and they give her a bunch of barbie stuff she felt sad. They used to give each of my children a gender specific gift that they thought the kids SHOULD like. It didnt matter that dd does not like barbie, or that ds was 1 and the toy was for 5 and up - it was the right gender so it should work.








We just told them we wanted to focus on family at xmas and not exchange gifts. They think i am weird but it is so much nicer to eat a meal, play a few board games and just hang out for a bit.

I think as a culture we are generally obsessed with "more and better!" and everyone loves to have pictures of piles of gifts and have kids be amazed. But even at 5 my dd knows what the impact of too many things is on a basic level and she gets that it isnt good. If we have to gently step on a few toes then so be it. I feel it is much better to get to see those family members and to have one time had an uncomfortable conversation rather then skip out altogether or be bombarded every year.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I just don't understand why people continue to be a part of something that is stressful, and subsequently, unenjoyable. Going to a gathering out of _obligation_, and thus accepting the gifts, seems to perpetuate materialism and consumerism in and of itself.

Deciding to opt out of family gatherings is a huge, huge decision. It's one that my family has made, and it's one that makes me sad. For us it is a combination of things, not just gifts. My family of orgin is truly nuts. None the less, it's sad that my kids see their only grandparents very, very little. It's sad that they barely know their cousins. It's sad that they have little long term connection to people outside our immediate family.

It's one thing to be frustrated with the way that other people connect with our kids (buying them too much stuff) but it is quite a leap to lessening or breaking that connection.

For the rest of the extended family to get together than to opt one's children out of it has a BIG impact on all those relationships, no matter how politely one goes about it.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Someone mentioned that the aggression/resentment factor might have something to do with relationships where there is no real connection or connection is lacking. I agree--I think a lot of the issues that come up around holidays and gift giving in general have more to do with the substance or lack of, in a relationship, than the actual gift. "You don't know me!" "You don't listen to me!"

And the other thing is having too much...being lucky to have too much stuff. I've been rich and I've been poor and there have been some times when the gifts I was given at Christmas or my birthday made me cry because they were so generous! And there have been other times when they've made me cry because they were such a waste of money and harked back to the whole not feeling understood or listened to. Not because I asked for a certain thing and didn't get it, but because the gift was so outside of my lifestyle and who I am, if that makes any sense.









: Nicely put.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Gifts can sometimes be more about what/who someone wants you to be than who you really are.

It's so true.

That's one of the things that always puzzles me about gift etiquette threads. I mean, don't get me wrong, I am genuinely grateful for gifts. The time, the thought, the cost ... these are not trivial offerings, and I truly appreciate them.

But not all gifts come from a place of generosity and love. It can be much, much more complicated than that.

As for this issue being self-inflicted, I'm going to quote myself:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Not everyone is willing to risk completely jeopardizing family relationships by addressing this problem head-on.

When we addressed this in my family, we did so VERY carefully, and we still had to be willing follow through on the ultimate consequences that we laid out.

It wasn't fun. It was worth it in the end, but it was painful at the time. It was hard to cause pain to people who love us. (And FWIW, I did this long before kids came into the picture, partly because I knew that once that first member of the new generation arrived, all heck would break loose, and it was better to address this problem first.)

If I hadn't trusted that the relatives in question would be able to get past their own issues and come to an agreement with us, I might not have been willing to risk the entire relationship over Christmas gifts, no matter how important the issue is to me and no matter how much it was also about underlying issues.

So to a certain extent, I agree that it's self-inflicted in that, if you are willing to risk completely ending the relationship with the people in question, you can almost certainly stop the issue. *The key thing that all the, "It's self-inflicted! Just stop!" people seem to be missing is that that is a big risk to take.*


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Deciding to opt out of family gatherings is a huge, huge decision.

[...]

For the rest of the extended family to get together than to opt one's children out of it has a BIG impact on all those relationships, no matter how politely one goes about it.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
My inlaws didnt get it. they would ask what she wanted then get a million tons of things that she didnt and it stung because she KNEW they didnt know her and felt they didnt care. When she is into karate, science, math, art, and music and they give her a bunch of barbie stuff she felt sad.

A bit of a tangent here.

But why would a girl being into karate, science, math, art and music mean she wouldn't like barbies?

I was into that kind of stuff (sub in soccer and skiing for karate and remove music) and I LOVED our barbies. It's one thing I remember is that I only got 1 of my own. People assumed that since I like sports and science that I didn't want to play with girlie stuff. That sucked.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
A bit of a tangent here.

But why would a girl being into karate, science, math, art and music mean she wouldn't like barbies?

I was into that kind of stuff (sub in soccer and skiing for karate and remove music) and I LOVED our barbies. It's one thing I remember is that I only got 1 of my own. People assumed that since I like sports and science that I didn't want to play with girlie stuff. That sucked.

I don't see where i posted that girls who are into those things don't like barbies??? I assume you would say "i am into soccer, skiing, art, science, math, and barbies" right?

DD had all those things she liked and barbies was not one of them.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
I don't see where i posted that girls who are into those things don't like barbies??? I assume you would say "i am into soccer, skiing, art, science, math, and barbies" right?

DD had all those things she liked and barbies was not one of them.

It's how your post came across.

I wasn't "into barbies" but I really liked playing with them, and I wished I'd had more than 1 of my own to play with.

How do kids expand their interests and likes if no one ever gives them something not on their current list?


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It's how your post came across.

I wasn't "into barbies" but I really liked playing with them, and I wished I'd had more than 1 of my own to play with.

How do kids expand their interests and likes if no one ever gives them something not on their current list?

Um, playing at other peoples houses. She has had ample opportunity to play with close to 30 other peoples toys and barely has a mild interest in any sort of doll.

My point was, if someone asks what she is into and is given a broad list of many things she likes and then they go with their idea of the gender specific toy that she doesnt like it is dismissive to the child.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
If you're still reading and thinking to yourself "easier said than done".. ask yourself why you continue to take place in holiday/family get togethers if you are worried about the outcome (which is coming home with too many of the wrong gifts) and yet _continue_ to do so, especially when you're trying to send a message to your kids that less is more. Is it a sense of obligation? Not wanting to hurt people's feelings by not attending? Why the need to spare feelings in one respect, but not in the other (in terms of addressing the issue of their choice in gifts)?

Is it really so difficult to understand that (a) people might value the relationship and (b) celebrating the holidays together is a major aspect of family relationships across cultures?

We don't go to family gatherings out of obligation; we go because we want to spend time with these people. We also want to nurture the relationships between DS and his extended family.

When we were dealing with absurd quantities of gifts (nothing to do with the "wrong" kind







) part of the problem was that it took away from what we and everyone else said was their priority: spending time together as a family. So we took deliberate steps to re-align our collective practices with our collective priorities. I totally disagree with those who think this is rude. It took some difficult conversations, but in the end, it has done nothing but good things for our family.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
Um, playing at other peoples houses. She has had ample opportunity to play with close to 30 other peoples toys and barely has a mild interest in any sort of doll.

My point was, if someone asks what she is into and is given a broad list of many things she likes and then they go with their idea of the gender specific toy that she doesnt like it is dismissive to the child.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

Not the way I'd look at it, but oh well.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
People assumed that since I like sports and science that I didn't want to play with girlie stuff. That sucked.

So clearly, you understand what it's like when your priorities are completely overlooked.

Do you think it would have been rude for your parent(s) to tell a relative, "Hey, JL83 already has lots of soccer, skiing and science stuff, but she would love a Barbie as a gift?"


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I guess that's one way of looking at it.

Not the way I'd look at it, but oh well.

Guess we just see differently. Which is fine.

When they give 1 y/o ds a toolbox kit full of tiny screws and nuts that says "5+" because he is a boy i find it dismissive.

When they give dd who is not into dolls at all a barbie with a ton of accessories because she is "our little princess" to me and to her it felt dismissive.

When they gave me dishtowels for xmas "because you are a wife now" it felt sexist and dismissive.

But, i guess i am lucky that my mom/dad/stepmom all enjoy the people my kids are and are okay with not pigeonholing them according to gender stereotypes. And I *LOVE* girly stuff. I just got 2 pettiskirts for dd. She likes them a bit mostly because one is blue which is her fav color and she likes to twirl. DS is absolutely stunned by them - anytime music comes on he puts on the magenta one and flounces around the house.

I respect my daughter and her choice to shun most of the stuff i dreamt of getting for my girl. I think it is adorable when my son wears a tutu. I love who they are and i would hope that as they are the only grandkids my inlaws would *want* to know them and show they care. Not stop at TRU on the way to a party and pick the "appropriate" toy for their gender.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
So clearly, you understand what it's like when your priorities are completely overlooked.

Do you think it would have been rude for your parent(s) to tell a relative, "Hey, JL83 already has lots of soccer, skiing and science stuff, but she would love a Barbie as a gift?"

I think you missed my point.

I don't think you can get a complete picture of what gifts a child would like simply based on their interests.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I think you missed my point.

I don't think you can get a complete picture of what gifts a child would like simply based on their interests.

No, I got your point. You disliked the assumption that affinities for sports and science and affinities for Barbies must be mutually exclusive. I think you're right.

I think that a-s-f is dealing with similar assumptions, i.e., that being a girl and having affinities for "girl toys" are inseparable, and the overlap may be assumed.

You didn't answer my question: Do you think it would have been rude for your parent(s) to tell a relative, "Hey, JL83 already has lots of soccer, skiing and science stuff, but she would love a Barbie as a gift?"


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I think there's a difference between "dismissive" and "clueless" -- especially for people who haven't a child that age for years or do not know you (the new daughter-in-law) well, it can be hard to figure out what to they might like, and they end up giving dishtowels to you and choking hazards. It doesn't sound like they are picking out "insult" gifts.

My in-laws gave some odd baby gifts, and now they just send cash. It's not because they are dismissive or don't love my daughter madly -- they just don't have any idea what she might like and aren't big gift people anyway.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am really not "allowed" to have any control over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?

This is a general discussion. I would love to hear what others think about this. Why it is the way it is and useful ways to navigate our families and children through it so that maybe when our kids are on here in 20 years it won't be such a combative issue.


I was thinking about this part of the OP's question, too. I think it gets worse when you have children because it's all magnified and multiplied per person in your immediate family times the people you need to buy for plus the holidays can just be stressful. 12/25 is a deadline for getting it done. Most of us are strapped for time these days. Many of us are strapped for cash. The pressure to give magnifies. When you're single, no one is depending on you. Your stressors are generally fewer.


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

I want to briefly re-focus the question on the givers and why this happens and provide a more generous perspective. Again, in our family I would say gifts get moderately out of hand, not terribly so, so it's not as bad as some of you are dealing with. But I've been thinking about my ILs and what motivates them and why they end up giving weird stuff and too much of it sometimes.

My ILs are lovely lovely people and I adore them. I had my MIL at my birth when I would not have wanted my own mother there so you can see that these are special folks. If we give them a list, they will follow it, but also add to it. They also give bizarre unwanted things sometimes. My DH has had those hurt feelings of receiving a gift (from his own parents) that does not match where he currently is in life, even though they know him well. How does this happen?

I've been pondering it and here is what I'm coming up with. My ILs are lovely but they are a bit insecure. Their kids are MUCH better educated than they are, for example. The ILs graduated high school, barely. DH has a PhD and his brother is nearly done. Both boys make more money than the ILs ever did. Both boys move in "worldly" circles, which the ILs largely do not. Yet, the ILs are the family members that opened those worlds to their sons - and that's important to remember.

My MIL in particular has a complicated family history that means that she often feels unwanted. She is terrified of being a burden, a ridiculous idea since you could hardly imagine a more lovely person. She is afraid of not being good enough - so the gift problem is echoed by the meal problem, for example. All meals at her house, but especially festival meals, have way too much of everything. One Easter we didn't even cut an incredibly beautiful and probably tasty homemade rabbit cake because there were also cookies, pies, and probably ice cream and the rabbit just got forgotten.

So, I think the gift giving thing is similar. She is deeply afraid of being unwanted and not being good enough and she knows that her boys are in a different world from what she's used to. She has a window to that world, but it is not her world.

The result: Some gifts that are spot-on fantastic, others that from our perspective are cheap and horrid, and way too many overall. We have told her very gently to cut back, but of course, she is ready to feel unwanted at the drop of a hat so we have to proceed with caution. When your dad made you feel like you weren't as good as your sibs, when your older brother copied your dad, when there was at least emotional abuse and perhaps worse - well, we can't really "fix" that by telling her that she's great how she is and that 1-2 gifts per kid are fine.

I go into detail here to portray a case where the love is very real and in fact, she also knows us and our children very well. We are talking to her about cutting back but again, very gently. And we are living with some stuff that we don't like in our house. This gift-giving really is a complicated business and rather than break off the relationship over it, we are working slowly toward some kind of sustainable solution - and so are the ILs. We're human and we're family and imperfection is to be expected.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Girlprof, your situation sounds similar to ours. I totally agree that the mountain of gifts can come from a desire to please and that it can be difficult to convince someone who has issues in that area that they really *are* pleasing, and that the over-the-top-ness is not necessary.

In our case, we built up to it gradually and then were finally able to deal with it once and for all by having an explicit discussion about priorities. I.e., We want to spend *time* with you. You want to spend time with us, too? Great! So here is the problem that we're seeing. We are spending all day opening gifts while you are off cooking. Can we talk about some ways we might free up some of that time? etc.

We do occasionally have to do maintenance. This year, because of where we will be on Christmas morning (we rotate, and this location has been more often the site of over-the-top gift-giving) we had a gentle "reminder" discussion which included an explicit mention of our feelings about how many gifts are appropriate. I think that especially when you are dealing with people for whom the source of the issue is a desire to please, shifting the expectations for what is considered pleasing can be very helpful.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This is what I mean about some of the problems being self inflicted. I just don't understand why people continue to be a part of something that is stressful, and subsequently, unenjoyable. Going to a gathering out of _obligation_, and thus accepting the gifts, seems to perpetuate materialism and consumerism in and of itself. And furthermore, the idea that the way to deal with this is to actually dictate what other people buy and give, rather than opting out of the whole process together, is even more baffling.

If society has become sick in our materialistic consumerist ways, and we're imploring ways to heal that and teach our kids differently, why do people continue to do things (or go to functions/activities) where this very thing is perpetuated by giving gifts? Wouldn't that be the first thing to go, rather than picking off individual "things".

It seems more logical, to me anyway, to opt out of the process rather than dictate how people operate within that process. It's like everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, and that's what comes off as pretentious and rude. That everyone wants to get together with people who are obviously different in their beliefs and then tell those people how to behave. I think it's made worse by the fact that you're essentially judging people's generosity and, perhaps inadvertently, calling it inadequate. Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on toys and clutter and the environment, it never feels good to find out that what they bought for someone is not good enough or not appropriate or not appreciated. The fact that we're having a discussion on how to broach that subject without hurting people's feelings is proof of that.

So, if making someone feel inadequate for their choice of gift is the ONLY way to deal with the situation (short of putting up with it and being miserable and stressed out every year), I would have step back and carefully examine why I want to be a part of that in the first place.

Because keeping my son away from his grandparents and aunt during the holidays would have absolutely HUGE ramifications. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand?

So I will continue to try to find ways to kindly ask for less stuff. To occasionally refuse the stuff that comes our way on any random visit - a box of stuff that is presented as "I thought you could use some of this". I am learning to say no, I can't (this is usually stuff retrieved from basements, attics, garages, not stuff purchased specifically as a gift).

I will politely accept things that are presented to us in the manner of "well, I almost didn't bring you this because _I know how you are_, but here you go". And then they will go in the goodwill box.

Even though I am finding ways to deal with it, it does not mean it isn't stressful or unpleasant. My dh and I both come from dysfuntional family situations. I wish we had the rosy happy thoughtful families, but are surrounded by major drama all the time. I distance myself as best as I can, but not at the risk of cutting my son off from his beloved grandma.

So, long story short, why don't I opt out? Because at the end of the day, my son having a relationship with some (not all) of these people is more important. I am an adult - it is my job to figure out how to handle it to make it better. Not separate my young son from people for reasons he won't understand.

I don't know what's so hard to understand???


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

And I won't even get into the fact that my Mom, when she was alive, definitely equated gifts with showing love and put herself into major credit card debt. My father is now trying to deal with that debt and may have to file for bankruptcy to do so. It's not the most pleasant way for him to spend his golden years and incredibly stressful for all us kids.

*YES, this is a problem in our culture.*

Think of how many people put themselves into financial stress over the holidays. And for what??? The people who love them, the recipients of the gifts, do not want to see these people in financial hardship.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


I don't know what's so hard to understand???
I had like 4 paragraphs typed out, and to be honest, I don't think I could explain it if I tried.







Suffice to say, I'm starting to wonder if a lot of the environmental and political concerns aren't thinly veiled control issues. And I say that as a person who came to MDC and fretted over my DD's first Christmas and how she was going to get buckets of plastic battery opperated crap. Once I stopped caring about the stuff and refocused on the people, and really sat back and gleaned a bit of perspective (about the fact that we HAD people willing to shower her with stuff), life became so much more pleasant.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I had like 4 paragraphs typed out, and to be honest, I don't think I could explain it if I tried.







Suffice to say, I'm starting to wonder if a lot of the environmental and political concerns aren't thinly veiled control issues. And I say that as a person who came to MDC and fretted over my DD's first Christmas and how she was going to get buckets of plastic battery opperated crap. Once I stopped caring about the stuff and refocused on the people, and really sat back and gleaned a bit of perspective (about the fact that we HAD people willing to shower her with stuff), life became so much more pleasant.

So the fact that your personal issue was one of perspective/control means that all of these issues must be issues of perspective/control?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

To go back to the original question and then pick up on a few things:

"So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am really not "allowed" to have any control over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?"

In my case I am fully aware that I have a lot of control over what stays in my home. I have no worries that what people give my child is going to warp him for life.

I don't try to control what people give. I consider having drama and arguments with relatives over gifts to be giving the gifts too much power, in the same way that I don't get into "gift wars" - we give according to our means and don't keep score.

If someone gives my son a macho toy, that's fine. We can give him a doll to go with it, if we feel the need. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are acting in love and care. I recognize that not everyone is, but if they want to use gifts to send me nastygrams, that's their issue, not mine. In my experience most people are just doing the best they can.

If someone is a compulsive shopper, that's her issue. Truly.

I have _no problem_ decluttering when we need to, although I do negotiate with my son. If I feel strongly about a toy being inappropriate or not having room for it, then I deal with it like any other item in my home. When he was given a video gaming system I wasn't thrilled about I unplugged it from the TV after a few days. It's truly not something I'm going to fret over.

I believe at heart that accepting people where they are is the first step to change.

Now there have been a few extreme cases posted here and if someone were making the holiday a completely miserable experience, I'd say "this is getting upsetting; we're stopping now." If it were carloads of stuff I'd make one run to Goodwill (and I have done this).

But I do _not_ believe the way to raise kids that are non-materialistic is to have them live in an environment where I am stomping about before the holidays on my high horse upset about gifts or failing to be kind to gift-givers.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I had like 4 paragraphs typed out, and to be honest, I don't think I could explain it if I tried.







Suffice to say, I'm starting to wonder if a lot of the environmental and political concerns aren't thinly veiled control issues. And I say that as a person who came to MDC and fretted over my DD's first Christmas and how she was going to get buckets of plastic battery opperated crap. Once I stopped caring about the stuff and refocused on the people, and really sat back and gleaned a bit of perspective (about the fact that we HAD people willing to shower her with stuff), life became so much more pleasant.

I agree, basically. It doesn't make it so for every single person who has a gift issue. Some people are passionate about political and environmental issues that I don't care about that deeply. But I think any time I have a "hot button" issue it helps to go beyond the surface and get down to the real issue.

For some it really is worrying about the landfill--for others it might be a cop out or a way to avoid dealing with their real issue.

For me, it's a lack of connection and not feeling heard or known by people in my own family.

And then the next step is to actually try to fix THAT relationship. The rest falls in line from there.

Your mileage may vary--there might be people out there with great familial relationships who are still beset by "gift sickness" but I know for me it's a symptom, not the real disease.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
So the fact that your personal issue was one of perspective/control means that all of these issues must be issues of perspective/control?









They certainly don't appear to be about the environment or clutter, that's for sure!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
And then the next step is to actually try to fix THAT relationship. The rest falls in line from there.

Your mileage may vary--there might be people out there with great familial relationships who are still beset by "gift sickness" but I know for me it's a symptom, not the real disease.

This I absolutely believe to be true. But is that done through gifts? Even if you're hurt that you got a sized small blue sweater when you love red and are a large, is being hurt about the relationship going to be fixed by saying "you bought me the wrong thing"? That's my point. I don't disagree with the issues. I have them too. But using a person's generosity to address those issues feels really icky to me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This I absolutely believe to be true. But is that done through gifts? Even if you're hurt that you got a sized small blue sweater when you love red and are a large, is being hurt about the relationship going to be fixed by saying "you bought me the wrong thing"? That's my point. I don't disagree with the issues. I have them too. But using a person's generosity to address those issues feels really icky to me.

What generosity? When someone knows I'm living in a small space (not super small, but fairly small for a family of six) and am trying to declutter, _and_ that decluttering causes me stress (which it does), and they decide to shower me with a carload of stuff, it's not about generosity. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with this crap at the holidays, but I had an incident of this ilk two years ago, which included the person doing it saying, "I have some more stuff for you guys, but your mom's probably already mad at me - hahaha". Yeah. Funny.

Sure - I should have told her to quit and just accepted that my kids were going to be really upset, but I had no idea she was going to dump all that in my lap...and she _knew_ I didn't want it, and was stressed about decluttering (I was very pregnant at the time and completely exhausted). So, she snuck it all in, and handed it all directly to my kids. That kind of behaviour isn't about generosity. It just isn't. (And, no - I never did address it. The woman in question is impossible to deal with, and cuts people off at the drop of a hat. While I'd happily have her out of my life, there are other people involved.)

And, yes - the issue was about clutter.

I would never say anything to someone who bought me a sweater in the "wrong" colour and wrong size. I'm not sure what I'd do if someone were consistently overloading my kids, but it would probably end up in a huge family blowout, because there's no way I'd sit back and let someone bully my child to tears to feed their own ego.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This I absolutely believe to be true. But is that done through gifts? Even if you're hurt that you got a sized small blue sweater when you love red and are a large, is being hurt about the relationship going to be fixed by saying "you bought me the wrong thing"? That's my point. I don't disagree with the issues. I have them too. But using a person's generosity to address those issues feels really icky to me.

Oh no, I don't mean that at all. I mean, for instance--I can only talk about me here, but I have issues with my mom. I don't generally like what she gifts to me or my daughte--but I think that's not the point. I think the point is that I need to work on my relationship with my mom all year round--that the holidays are a time of stress and it's easy to focus your resentment and issues on gift giving, but really--you need to care for your relationships all year round.

For all that I don't feel understood/listened to--maybe she doesn't, either. Maybe if I could get to a better relationship with her, we'd both be better able to receive the gifts in the spirit they are given. I wouldn't be (invisibly) rolling my eyeballs at the 7th sweater with a sequin reindeer she's given me in my life and she wouldn't (I suspect) think I was cheap because I just gave her a gift basket with wine, cookies, and a picture of DD when my sister gave her a new flat screen tv.

My point is that people have issues, but the gifts aren't the real issue at all.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
My point is that people have issues, but the gifts aren't the real issue at all.

I agree mostly. Except that the US is still the largest consumer in the world. I imagine in other countries this same family dynamic might play out differently. How, I don't know.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
You didn't answer my question: Do you think it would have been rude for your parent(s) to tell a relative, "Hey, JL83 already has lots of soccer, skiing and science stuff, but she would love a Barbie as a gift?"

No, I don't think that would have been rude.

I have no problem with suggesting ideas or even specific items for gifts. We just sent my BIL (childless and slightly clueless about gifts) with a very specific idea of a toy that DD played with at someone else's house and cried over when it was time to leave (and hasn't stopped talking about for 2 weeks). We made some suggestions to my in-laws that were more general because they wanted a direction to go in. And we asked my parents straight out if they would go in with us on DD's big gift this Christmas.

BUT... It doesn't matter what those people end up giving us, we will smile and say thank you and then enjoy the gifts however we can. If my BIL chooses not to buy the gift that would make him DD's "favorite person ever" and gets her something bizarre and random like he has in the past, it won't be a big deal. We would never mention it to him afterwards.

If my inlaws end up getting DD the large scale toy they e-mailed us about (which we said was way too big for our house), we'll figure out something.

The point is that we will assume the best of intentions about the gifts we are given. We will be thankful for them, and then get whatever use we can out of them. We will not just throw them out or give them away because they don't meet some predetermined value system we have. We won't sabotage them (by removing batteries). And we won't teach our child that she should appreciate gifts based on our value system rather than the spirit in which they were given.

I'm also not going to give gifts any power over me by spending any real time (online discussions aside) thinking about it.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
My point is that people have issues, but the gifts aren't the real issue at all.

I agree. Relationships being the biggest issue (that I've noticed anyway). I find it hard to believe that people who have a good relationship would undermine another person's beliefs (not only about gifts, but about parenting, and life style, etc).


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
I think there's a difference between "dismissive" and "clueless" -- especially for people who haven't a child that age for years or do not know you (the new daughter-in-law) well, it can be hard to figure out what to they might like, and they end up giving dishtowels to you and choking hazards. It doesn't sound like they are picking out "insult" gifts.

My in-laws gave some odd baby gifts, and now they just send cash. It's not because they are dismissive or don't love my daughter madly -- they just don't have any idea what she might like and aren't big gift people anyway.

With my grandparents - it is cluelessness - they are in their 80's, dont really know all the great grandkids and can easily buy a boatload of stuffed animals.

With my inlaws it was unfortunately dismissive. They insist on a list of specific items and general interests and then they give whatever they grab at the last minute. And it has always been very gender specific. For dh they even gave him stuff for their religion that he had left nearly a decade before. they are the type to be manipulative with gifts. It was sad and stressful and so we did away with gifts and life was nicer.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
They certainly don't appear to be about the environment or clutter, that's for sure!

Again, so they _must_ be about your issue? I'm really confused here as to what you are saying. Are you saying that you know what the issues are _actually_ about based on reading a few posts?

Of course they can be about perspective, or control, or underlying relationship issues, or all of the above. Sometimes the gift issue is just the final straw. And I'm sure that some people have unreasonable expectations and/or are just looking for an excuse to criticize the relative in question.

However, outside of those, "Oh, that's easy, you just modify your expectations/change your perspective/give up control/fix your relationship," cases, there are genuine sticky situations that do not always have such a simple solution. (If only all of those solutions were actually simple!







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Your mileage may vary--there might be people out there with great familial relationships who are still beset by "gift sickness" but I know for me it's a symptom, not the real disease.

Sure, but let's say that your kitchen is messy because of an underlying problem with responsibilities, perceptions of who does what, and expectations. Sometimes you can start the discussion about those issues in a better frame of mind when you first clean up the mess. Or to use a metaphor with the same words, pain can be a symptom of an underlying disease. In most cases, the best approach is to fix the symptom, and then go looking for the disease.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I would never say anything to someone who bought me a sweater in the "wrong" colour and wrong size. I'm not sure what I'd do if someone were consistently overloading my kids, but it would probably end up in a huge family blowout, because there's no way I'd sit back and let someone bully my child to tears to feed their own ego.


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## bscal (Feb 13, 2006)

I finally made it to the end of this thread... whew!

So, here are my thoughts on the whole topic of gift-giving: First, YES, we as Americans go overboard on gifts! (But don't Americans go overboard on everything? From Supersized meals to big SUVs? And yes, I know that's a very general Stereotype and not necessarily the case with most ppl on Mothering.com.)

Perhaps there is also a generational thing going on here too. My grandparents grew up in the Depression and didn't have anything. So when they were young parents they were very frugal. Now that they are older and have good retirement investment accounts and such they can buy presents for us and our children. And my parents are the same... buying all kinds of stuff for my kiddos because they grew up with very frugal parents.

As far as gift-giving etiquette goes... I did not have a problem sitting my parents down and having a discussion about gifts. They are my parents and I'm very close to them. So I felt it was okay to explain that my house is so terribly cluttered that it was giving me anxiety attacks. I seriously was having nightmares about the piles of toys and clutter falling over on me. (This was PPA also... and a psychologist helped quite a bit!) My first child's 2nd Christmas (her birthday is in Dec, so she was just over a year old) she got so many presents we had to take a 2nd trip to get the rest of them later. I didn't end up pulling all of the toys out of gift bags for about 3 months... because I just didn't want to try to figure out where to put all that stuff!

So, I set some appropriate 'rules' about gift-giving for my parents. I read a great idea that works for us - it's supposed to be based on a Victorian custom. It's 4 gifts - "Something you want, something you need, something to wear, something to read". That means Grandma can still get them each a toy and a new outfit. And I did tell her she's allowed to get as many books as she'd like because we love new books!

And we've also toned down Santa Claus at our house over the years... once upon a time I might've been just as bad at overbuying as my mom! So Santa brings 1 small gift for each child OR 1 joint gift for the 3 of them (last year it was the kitchen, year before it was an art easel) and fills their stockings with fun things. DH and I pick out a gift for each child and we help each child to get a gift for their siblings.

Really though, if someone gives one of the children a gift that I don't particularly care for or gives them a bunch of stuff... I let them play with it. We purge often and give to charity when we can. So hopefully we end up weeding out the stuff I don't like eventually!

-Beth


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
No, I don't think that would have been rude.

I have no problem with suggesting ideas or even specific items for gifts. We just sent my BIL (childless and slightly clueless about gifts) with a very specific idea of a toy that DD played with at someone else's house and cried over when it was time to leave (and hasn't stopped talking about for 2 weeks). We made some suggestions to my in-laws that were more general because they wanted a direction to go in. And we asked my parents straight out if they would go in with us on DD's big gift this Christmas.

BUT... It doesn't matter what those people end up giving us, we will smile and say thank you and then enjoy the gifts however we can. If my BIL chooses not to buy the gift that would make him DD's "favorite person ever" and gets her something bizarre and random like he has in the past, it won't be a big deal. We would never mention it to him afterwards.

If my inlaws end up getting DD the large scale toy they e-mailed us about (which we said was way too big for our house), we'll figure out something.

The point is that we will assume the best of intentions about the gifts we are given. We will be thankful for them, and then get whatever use we can out of them. We will not just throw them out or give them away because they don't meet some predetermined value system we have. We won't sabotage them (by removing batteries). And we won't teach our child that she should appreciate gifts based on our value system rather than the spirit in which they were given.

That's wonderful for you. Really.

Though I'm a little confused about how you reconcile that with your earlier statement about how it "sucked" that you didn't get more than one Barbie. Why wouldn't you just appreciate the gifts you got based on your value system? Or is this value system something that you have developed as an adult but have not yet not applied backwards to your childhood?

*FWIW, we take the same approach: we are grateful for all gifts we receive. We just don't want to spend all day opening gifts. We would rather spend time with the people we love. I think that's a perfectly reasonable set of priorities.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm also not going to give gifts any power over me by spending any real time (online discussions aside) thinking about it.

You have a way to make "fake time" that you then use for online discussions?!! That is AWESOME. Please, hook me up! Tell me your secret!!


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree. Relationships being the biggest issue (that I've noticed anyway). I find it hard to believe that people who have a good relationship would undermine another person's beliefs (not only about gifts, but about parenting, and life style, etc).

Perhaps you have a much higher bar for what you consider a good relationship? I'm glad for you. I really am.

Some of us have weird histories with weird relatives. The fact that we have (had) issues over gifts doesn't mean that the relationship is bad.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 

However, outside of those, "Oh, that's easy, you just modify your expectations/change your perspective/give up control/fix your relationship," cases, there are genuine sticky situations that do not always have such a simple solution. (If only all of those solutions were actually simple!)


Seriously, no where in my post did I say fixing relationships would be easy! If it were, I wouldn't be 40 and still trying to make things better with my mom every day. It would have happened a long time ago. All I can do is keep trying, and not let that trying be derailed by side issues, like resentment over holiday gifts.

You seem to feel very strongly that directly tackling the issue of unwanted giftgiving is the way to go. My belief is equally strong that the gifts aren't really the problem for most people, and at least for my own family. I don't really feel any common ground with your post, to be honest, so, I remain solid in my conviction! I will continue to read the next eight pages of posts though, because I think this discussion is very interesting and we're never all going to agree.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Seriously, no where in my post did I say fixing relationships would be easy!

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you said that. That was intended to be just a light-hearted side comment. I should have included an emoticon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
You seem to feel very strongly that directly tackling the issue of unwanted giftgiving is the way to go. My belief is equally strong that the gifts aren't really the problem for most people, and at least for my own family. I don't really feel any common ground with your post, to be honest, so, I remain solid in my conviction!

Fair enough. All I can tell you is that it worked *wonders* for us. And actually made it easier to tackle some of the other, smaller issues (on both sides.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I will continue to read the next eight pages of posts though, because I think this discussion is very interesting and we're never all going to agree.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
That's wonderful for you. Really.

Though I'm a little confused about how you reconcile that with your earlier statement about how it "sucked" that you didn't get more than one Barbie. Why wouldn't you just appreciate the gifts you got based on your value system? Or is this value system something that you have developed as an adult but have not yet not applied backwards to your childhood?

Like most feelings it's complicated.

The barbie was WRT my parents. They were the ones who got me a token one of my own and only because my sister threw a fit and insisted that they get me my own barbies so I wouldn't keep taking hers (used in a very elaborate game she and her BFF played). I think that parents tend to give different gifts than other people. I know that's vague, but I'm not sure I can clarify.

Quote:

*FWIW, we take the same approach: we are grateful for all gifts we receive. We just don't want to spend all day opening gifts. We would rather spend time with the people we love. I think that's a perfectly reasonable set of priorities.*

You have a way to make "fake time" that you then use for online discussions?!! That is AWESOME. Please, hook me up! Tell me your secret!!








What I think about and discuss online has very little relevance most of the time to what I think about and discuss IRL. I have probably never put this much thought into Christmas gifts before.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Like most feelings it's complicated.

The barbie was WRT my parents. They were the ones who got me a token one of my own and only because my sister threw a fit and insisted that they get me my own barbies so I wouldn't keep taking hers (used in a very elaborate game she and her BFF played). I think that parents tend to give different gifts than other people. I know that's vague, but I'm not sure I can clarify.

No, that totally makes sense. And I would agree that it's reasonable to expect parents to have a better sense of what fits you as a gift. It sounds like you got typecast by your parents. Sorry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
What I think about and discuss online has very little relevance most of the time to what I think about and discuss IRL. I have probably never put this much thought into Christmas gifts before.

I get that -- I was just poking fun at myself with the "real time" issue. I would personally really enjoy having "fake time" for online discussions.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Fair enough. All I can tell you is that it worked *wonders* for us. And actually made it easier to tackle some of the other, smaller issues (on both sides.)










Probably because you were honest! That's always a good step towards a/sign of a healthy relationship. And it sounds like you put a lot of thought into how you approached it.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
No, that totally makes sense. And I would agree that it's reasonable to expect parents to have a better sense of what fits you as a gift. It sounds like you got typecast by your parents. Sorry.

My main point was that just because a child hasn't expressed interest in something in front of the person giving the gift, that doesn't mean they will have no interest in the thing once they get it.

I did get toys as a kid that I would NEVER have thought to ask for. I got them from people who did know me and thought I would like it, and from people (school birthday parties) buying random gifts for random children. Some of them were big hits and others weren't.

I was objecting to the idea that just because a kid wasn't currently interested in something that means they won't like the toy. And that's what the poster I was responding to was implying. Her DD was into all those other things and her in-laws *gasp* bought her barbies which were NOT one of the kid's current interest.

Quote:

I get that -- I was just poking fun at myself with the "real time" issue. I would personally really enjoy having "fake time" for online discussions.








I know. I"d like more fake time too.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Probably because you were honest! That's always a good step towards a/sign of a healthy relationship. And it sounds like you put a lot of thought into how you approached it.

Well, we did put a lot of thought into it, but I'm not sure how honest we were. We had a series of very carefully orchestrated conversations over the years. Honesty would have involved way more yelling and crying.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
My main point was that just because a child hasn't expressed interest in something in front of the person giving the gift, that doesn't mean they will have no interest in the thing once they get it.

I did get toys as a kid that I would NEVER have thought to ask for. I got them from people who did know me and thought I would like it, and from people (school birthday parties) buying random gifts for random children. Some of them were big hits and others weren't.

I was objecting to the idea that just because a kid wasn't currently interested in something that means they won't like the toy. And that's what the poster I was responding to was implying. Her DD was into all those other things and her in-laws *gasp* bought her barbies which were NOT one of the kid's current interest.

I get you, but in her case, current interests were used a proxy to explain the child's individuality. And it does sound like her ILs don't really pay attention to the signals that are offered.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I know. I"d like more fake time too.

If I ever figure it out, I'll let you know. Please return the favor.









So, in the interests of offering something constructive to the people who do struggle with quantities of gifts (I have no idea how to tackle issues to do with the "wrong" gift -- that's a much thornier issue IMHO) here are some potential avenues to explore.

One idea from bscal:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bscal* 
So, I set some appropriate 'rules' about gift-giving for my parents. I read a great idea that works for us - it's supposed to be based on a Victorian custom. It's 4 gifts - "Something you want, something you need, something to wear, something to read". That means Grandma can still get them each a toy and a new outfit. And I did tell her she's allowed to get as many books as she'd like because we love new books!

And we've also toned down Santa Claus at our house over the years... once upon a time I might've been just as bad at overbuying as my mom! So Santa brings 1 small gift for each child OR 1 joint gift for the 3 of them (last year it was the kitchen, year before it was an art easel) and fills their stockings with fun things. DH and I pick out a gift for each child and we help each child to get a gift for their siblings.

Really though, if someone gives one of the children a gift that I don't particularly care for or gives them a bunch of stuff... I let them play with it. We purge often and give to charity when we can. So hopefully we end up weeding out the stuff I don't like eventually!

Another idea from me:

For us, addressing the mountain of gifts involved opening up discussions like, "Now that DH and I are married (you could substitute, "Now that DC are [age],"), we've been talking about what traditions we would like to carry forward about Christmas. What is important to *you* about Christmas? What values and traditions would you like to see carried on in future generations?"

And then, once the idea of togetherness comes to the surface, it's a great entry to the question, "We really value spending time together, too. One thing we've noticed over the years is that sometimes it's hard to do as much of that as we would like because there are so many presents to get through. Have you noticed that, as well?" and then, "What do you think we can do about that?" If you make it their idea, or at least partly their idea, it works so much better.

It's highly manipulative (hence my hedge about how honest our process was) and really only works if the relatives in question value spending time with family, but IMHO, most people do.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
I get you, but in her case, current interests were used a proxy to explain the child's individuality. And it does sound like her ILs don't really pay attention to the signals that are offered.

But that was my point. I did get cool stuff I would never have picked/asked for that were generic gifts that had nothing to do with my individuality. Things that triggered interests in new areas. Toys that, because my parents were "experience" people rather than toys people, I had to figure out how to play with because otherwise I would have had nothing to play with. And then discovered that I really liked them.

One example was my Easy Bake Oven. I'd never shown any interest in baking or cooking or anything. But my well meaning aunt thought it was something a little girl like me should have. Once I used up the couple of sample mixes and discovered that my parents had no intentions of buying more (not because they disapproved of the toy, but because they had lots of things they considered to be more important taking up their time and attention) I delved into the world of learning about baking. How do you get 1/4 of an egg? Did I really need both baking soda and baking powder? I took normal recipes and turned them into easy bake ones with varying levels of success (most of the stuff were failures, but occasionally stuff rocked - like pancake cake).


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
But that was my point. I did get cool stuff I would never have picked/asked for that were generic gifts that had nothing to do with my individuality. Things that triggered interests in new areas. Toys that, because my parents were "experience" people rather than toys people, I had to figure out how to play with because otherwise I would have had nothing to play with. And then discovered that I really liked them.

One example was my Easy Bake Oven. I'd never shown any interest in baking or cooking or anything. But my well meaning aunt thought it was something a little girl like me should have. Once I used up the couple of sample mixes and discovered that my parents had no intentions of buying more (not because they disapproved of the toy, but because they had lots of things they considered to be more important taking up their time and attention) I delved into the world of learning about baking. How do you get 1/4 of an egg? Did I really need both baking soda and baking powder? I took normal recipes and turned them into easy bake ones with varying levels of success (most of the stuff were failures, but occasionally stuff rocked - like pancake cake).

Ah, now I get what you are saying. (Sorry so slow!) Yes, I do agree that you can't always predict what a child will and won't like. In the above case, it didn't sound like the Barbies were a hit, but I do hear you. (Finally!)

That sounds like it was a fantastic gift for you and it's completely awesome that it served as a springboard for your own personal baking science experiments.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Ah, now I get what you are saying. (Sorry so slow!) Yes, I do agree that you can't always predict what a child will and won't like. In the above case, it didn't sound like the Barbies were a hit, but I do hear you. (Finally!)

It does sound like the barbies weren't a great hit. But unless they'd been tried before with the girl at that age, how would anyone know they wouldn't be a hit?

Quote:

That sounds like it was a fantastic gift for you and it's completely awesome that it served as a springboard for your own personal baking science experiments.
I agree with you. I'm not sure the people who were required to "taste" my "creations" would...


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)




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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
My main point was that just because a child hasn't expressed interest in something in front of the person giving the gift, that doesn't mean they will have no interest in the thing once they get it.

I did get toys as a kid that I would NEVER have thought to ask for. I got them from people who did know me and thought I would like it, and from people (school birthday parties) buying random gifts for random children. Some of them were big hits and others weren't.

I was objecting to the idea that just because a kid wasn't currently interested in something that means they won't like the toy. And that's what the poster I was responding to was implying. *Her DD was into all those other things and her in-laws *gasp* bought her barbies which were NOT one of the kid's current interest.* .

Besides the fact that i really think you must have some barbie issue or random issue with me i don't understand why this doesnt make sense to you. But, i will try again. Like i said in my other replies, they have people make a list because frankly they DONT know their grandkids and dont try to at all. BUT they want to look like it when they give the gift. DD has a ton of friends and cousins and she has played with barbies and dolls and so much more. She has played with dolls for maybe 5 minutes/week most her life. She just doesnt like that kind of play. She *GASP*







figured ALL her grandparents knew her and what she liked. So, when my very bright 5 year old opened that next to her brother who opened the construction tool kit she was visably bummed. She would have LOVED the tool kit and she actually has played with it a ton since. They had gotten her a doll before with the same reaction on a smaller scale. I could see the gears turning in her head and she of course thanked them. BUT, on the way home she asked why they would get her a barbie. At 5 she was hurt by this.

We dont refuse toys, we have too many stuffed animals, plastic play food right next to the wool and wood food and plently of noisy light up toys. I think if a grandparent is going to at least pretend they have an interest in a grandchild it should be a real interest. But, being hurt by the careless inappropriate slightly passive aggressive gifting is wrong in your world. Oh well, it isnt in mine.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I've been reading through this thread and bouncing back and forth between the "you shouldn't discuss it" and the "why not discuss it" camps. I think earlier on it was mentioned that the problem may not be gift giving, per se, but the relationship that exists between you and other people. It's not the taboo of talking about gifts, it's the expectation that you give them that seems to cause the problem in our family. Thus I have an aunt who always sends me horrible stuff, and a bio-dad who spends a FORTUNE on nice things for me that I can't use, like a really expensive leather purse or earrings (my ears are not pierced). The relationship is really the problem, not the gifts. My dad never ever sees me, and calls me twice a year, so he has no idea what I like or who I am.

In my mom's case, the situation is a bit more sticky because she is around and involved. I don't have the relationship with her that I'd like to have, but changing the gift giving problem isn't going to make the relationship be what I want it to be. I'm still stck about what to do beyond being honest and grnuine and encouraging open communication. And this year for my birthday, both my mom and MIL did much better, so maybe we are making progress. The kids Christmas presents will be another story, I'm sure...


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## claras_mom (Apr 25, 2006)

I'm interested in this discussion from the perspective of what gift-giving says about people's relationships with immediate and extended family. When dh and I were dating, he said one day that his family didn't exchange gifts. I took that to mean that there were no gifts at all for Christmas, which I found inexplicable and sad, based on my own experience and background.

But what he really meant was that he and his siblings didn't exchange gifts at all, and hadn't for years, because their mother went so far overboard that it was just overwhelming. And then she died, and they didn't quite know what to do. They didn't really want "no gifts," because it magnified the loss, but they also didn't have the slightest idea where to begin in exchanging gifts.

My family takes the trouble and time to find gifts--whether a thing or an experience--that are meaningful for the recipient, which means among other things that it doesn't violate deeply held beliefs. Some years it's pretty hard, but we all make the effort. I have worked with dh to restart gifting for his siblings (his dad has since died as well), because in order for him to choose something meaningful and appropriate, he has to stay in touch with them. *And this is something he wants; he wants to know his siblings better.* One of the particular challenges is finding things that are both beautiful and useful--that won't add to clutter--whether for children or adults (in the two families combined, there are 8 kids ranging from 8 months to 13 years).

But I can't even relate to the scale of Christmas gifts that some posters have described. It's just not where we are as a family--any of us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
So again, why? How did gifts and STUFF in general get so much power over us? Is it getting worse in the recent past (I seem to feel that way)? Or has it always been this way? Why is this so emotional? Does it seem silly and a little scary to anyone else that I am really not "allowed" to have any control over the messages and values my dd is getting from THINGS or the amount of STUFF that is in my living space?

But you are allowed control: you just have to take it, in which ever way works best for your family and the dynamics of the various relationships. You are allowed to give things away, to help your daughter choose what to keep and what to give away. I did read the post describing the emotional baggage attached to some of the gifts--the family "heirlooms," the things that must be kept just because. It's hard--we came home with a ton of stuff from my late FIL's home that we weren't allowed to refuse, because it would hurt someone's feelings (someone being my late MIL's sister)--but even those things can be passed on.

STUFF gets power over us when it's tied to relationship. That much I know.

Stuff gets power over us when the giving of it is a substitute for talking about fear, love, longing, guilt.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I haven't read all 9 pages, just the OP. I agree with a lot of what the OP writes. Honestly, we don't freak out over gifts. Honestly, I have a history of a certain family member manipulating through gift giving through my whole life--no one was ever grateful enough to this person, and no one could ever say thank you enough to this person. So much stress is always put on the gifts... blah.

It really made gift giving (to this person, to whom nothing was good enough for them!) a stressful situation, and gift receiving from this person miserable. As they are close relative (one of my parents) I just decided that I wouldn't care about gifts. Sure it can be a sign of love, but it isn't love itself.









Every year right after Thanksgiving, we borrow the Tasha Tudor Christmas movie from the library: Take Peace.

It is fascinating to watch how she makes every gift, and it reminds us to keep our true focus through the holidays.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
I would personally really enjoy having "fake time" for online discussions.









If I used "fake time" for online discussions, I'd only be about 35, instead of 41.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Once I stopped caring about the stuff and refocused on the people, and really sat back and gleaned a bit of perspective (about the fact that we HAD people willing to shower her with stuff), life became so much more pleasant.

While there are stressful situations surrounding the holidays and the gift obligations, I do manage to get to that point sometimes, too. For instance, last year I brought my MIL out caroling with a bunch of friends and their children. I insisted we do it. She enjoyed it, it was lovely and I"m thankful for the memory.

Often a glass of red helps









I don't think I've ever thought so much about the gift issue until this thread.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 

Often a glass of red helps









I don't think I've ever thought so much about the gift issue until this thread.

I agree. On both counts.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)




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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Storm Bride,







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
I don't think I've ever thought so much about the gift issue until this thread.

This thread is nothing compared to the thinking/talking I've done on this issue previously.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

OP back again. I am on vacation and normally do not check on here while traveling, but have been keeping a very close eye on this thread. The discussion has been most helpful and eye-opening to me!

I took a little break from posting due to the following:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
They certainly don't appear to be about the environment or clutter, that's for sure!

Along with a couple of other posts with similar hinting.

Correct me if I wrong, North_Of_60, but I believe you are calling me a liar.

When I first read this, I resisted the very strong temptation to reply and walked away for a bit. Had I replied then, the temptation to write an enormous post about how centrally simple living, treading lightly on the earth, and being good stewards to the planet and it's inhabitants/resources is in my family's life would have been too strong. I could write on and on about how walking the walk is more important to my dh, me, and increasingly, my dd, than talking the talk. How this is part of almost every single decision we make and is discussed several times every single day in my house. But. That would be a huge waste of time, for me to type and for you to read. You have already decided that I am either lying to everyone or at the very least, to myself. I can choose to be highly insulted, sling a few "good ones" back and forth, and get into a big argument and see who all we can suck into it. But I choose not to. I guess (after cooling down) that I really do not care what you think. I know this is a non-issue for you. Great. I am interested in discussing this subject with the many posters on here who do think it is an issue.

Back to the discussion......

As we are here visiting many of the people who are central in the situation (for my family anyway), I cannot stop thinking about the many themes of discussion that people have introduced to my thinking. I am looking at these people that I care about and who care about me and trying a think of any way in which I might have a productive discussion with them. During talks about things not directly related to holiday gifts, I am starting to understand that people (in general, and me included) do not stretch themselves very far out out of their own spaces. Ironically, environmentalism has come up a few times in the last two days. My mom, who we are currently visiting, knows the issue is very important to me. I moved out 17 years ago, but even while living with her I was active in Students for Environmental Action, used to turn down the thermostat in our house on the sly, and lobbied hard for our family to purchase compact cars rather than the fuel-guzzling options they ended up buying. I was annoying but I think my mom thought it was cute. My mom has known environmentalism is that important to me for that long but despite this she has very little understanding about the subject. For instance, she told me that I would "really like the new meijer's by her house because she noticed they carried organic milk" even though she knows I am a very active board member on my local co-op, never EVER shop at big box stores, and have fought to the bitter end to prevent an area Walmart from expanding, which destroyed several acres of wetlands. I have a couple of more examples, but I will not bore you with the details, you get the point. My mom loves me. She listens (and remembers) when I talk about what dd is up to, how my job is going, what is currently falling apart in my ancient house, which of my friends had a baby, etc.....because these are things SHE cares about. When we talk about something she does not particularly care about (environmental issues for instance), I think it goes in one ear and out the next. The same thing happens to me when she talks about her Music Box Society trips. It is not on purpose, it is just human nature, and needs to be actively prevented if you don't want it to happen. No wonder I feel a huge disconnect between my lifestyle and this gift issue. She is trying. She largely buys gifts that do fit our lifestyle, but she honestly does not see the connection between the number of gifts and our lifestyle. And she REALLY does not get the clutter issue because she is a hoarder









This must be human nature because it sees pretty universal across the people in my (and dh's) family. They are trying. They do care. I am not sure I am OK with pushing it any further until I can find a way to do so mindfully and with care.

For those suggesting that we not participate in the family activities, I already mentioned above why we have not chosen that route. But additionally, we only go "home" for the holidays every other year and never for dd's birthday. The same number of gifts arrive at our house. Yes, we get to decide when they are opened and our holiday takes on a much more relaxed pace, but we also get to deal with HUGE amount of boxes and packaging. And we still have to find somewhere in our house (and minds) to put it all.

As I also mentioned before, this is not my rock to die on. Yes, I want to discuss it here because it is important to me, I might come across a great solution, and I am going to continue to seek a solution. But right now, it is what it is. I am not going to cut off family members or seriously hurt their feelings. We will just deal until I come up with something else. But if we do all just settle forever, letting love= stuff, holiday= waste, and children's bedrooms=giant overwhelming toy store, I mourn for our future. I do believe this is one (of many signs) that our culture is sick.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
While there are stressful situations surrounding the holidays and the gift obligations, I do manage to get to that point sometimes, too. For instance, last year I brought my MIL out caroling with a bunch of friends and their children. I insisted we do it. She enjoyed it, it was lovely and I"m thankful for the memory.

Yep. This is the best I can do (right now) and it is where I end up every year. Letting go of the conflict in my heart and mind and being joyful to have so many people who love and care about us.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Correct me if I wrong, North_Of_60, but I believe you are calling me a liar.

Nope.







I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, but I think some people (not necessarily on this thread, but these _types_ of threads in general) are fooling themselves if they think this is really about a gift. Or clutter. Or, even the environment in some cases. Some posts start of with the premise that it's about the evil plastic, but are laden with underlying issues with the inlaws, etc. Someone said it best above when they said it's just a symptom of a bigger "disease".

I'm not calling anyone liar.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

It seems, in my life, the gift issue is only an issue with family, not friends. For example, with my small group of friends we had no problem 2 years ago declaring a make-it or bake-it-holiday. This past year, we all decided instead of gifts we would do each other one big favor - they would babysit for us, we would help them with a big house project.

It's when unusual family dynamics play a part. And my issues are with my IL's so I tread lightly as it is. That makes it harder, I think. If my Mom were still alive, I think I could have a frank discussion with her about it.

And another example - We did not give ds the birthday present we picked out for him, we are saving it for Christmas. It's something he really wanted, but I felt he got SO MUCH for his bday it seemed silly at the end of the day to throw another present his way. Part of this is because we had his preschool bday party the morning of his birthday, and the family party later. This year I did not put "no gifts" on the invite, b/c all year long he had been picking out gifts for his classmates and I decided to take a deep breath and go with.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
That's how I grew up. In fact, one year our doorbell rang on christmas morning and we went outside and there was black garbage bag full of gifts for me and my sisters, all wrapped, all with our names on it. I got my first purse! (I was about 11/12) To this day we don't know who it was, maybe my mom knows but she hasn't told us.

I remember my mom starting Christmas shopping in October and putting stuff in a box and locking it up in the carport. I use to think she was the world's stingiest person for locking up a bottle of gherkin pickles in October. But the fact was, having a 3 dollar bottle of gherkin pickles on christmas eve HAD to be budgeted for 3 months in advance, or we didn't have it.

I wonder how much of the minimalist movement has to do with privilege, verses a genuine desire to reduce waste and consumption. It weighs on my mind a lot, because I have never, ever, met a low income person/family who has complained about a gift. (And that's spanning my childhood and early adulthood in the low income/subsidized housing I've lived in all my life.) Now we're a middle to upper class family and this (not wanting certain "things") phenomenon is way too common. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but it doesn't influence my opinions on the nature of graciously accepting gifts.

And elitism. It is a luxury to be able to refuse a gift or to dictate what gift is acceptable. Knowing that my parents and in-laws grew up in the Depression, it was easy to allow them the pleasure of giving my children the Easter baskets, large ticket gift items, etc. It was an easy, thoughtful way of my saying thank you for the sacrifices they went through in raising dh and I. It wasn't until I was an adult, that I learned how much they scrimped and saved in paying for braces, vacations, eyeglasses, a house big enough for all of us. I grew up with home made gifts and home made clothes. I loved it. I felt special because none of my friends had that. I owe a lot to my parents for that.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
It is a luxury to be able to refuse a gift

Of course it is. It's a luxury to be able to make almost any choice at all.

That doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to make make thoughtful choices rather than just jumping on whatever default comes up first.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 

Since my kids have had a combination of earth friendly toys and plastic crap, I've noticed that the plastic crap doesn't stay nice. After a while, it can may be OK enough to donate to goodwill, but might just need to go into the trash.

The earth friendly toys, however, stay really nice. We have lovely wooden things that are nearly as nice a decade later after two kids as they were on Christmas day. We are saving them for our grandkids. Which makes a different problem, when you buy nice things that last for years and years, even buying just one toy per child for Christmas, it ends up being a lot of stuff after a while.


As I'm reading your post, my grandson (age 4) is playing with the realistic plastic dinosaur that my daughter (his aunt, now 25) got when she was his age. That and the rest of her dinosaur collection is on the 3rd child to play with them. And I fully expect his brother to be playing with them in a few years. The Legos that my dds played with are now delighting their brother, 15 later. And the Duplo that he got is delighting his nephew and niece. It's not about whether or not the toy is wood, plastic, or metal. It's about whether or not the child will play with it. No matter what the toy is made of, it can be made well and last (or wear out from constant play) or it can be shoddily made and break the first time it's used.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

What I always find interesting in these discussions is the implicit or explicit valorization of poverty.

I've personally engaged with poverty (on a third world scale) and experienced elements of it (on a first world scale.) There is nothing about actually living in poverty that anyone who had a say in the matter would choose. It is not romantic.

Those who are announcing some variant of, "I was/am poor and therefore I'm just grateful as heck for any gift," don't seem to understand that for a lot of parents, part of the reason for limiting gifts to a reasonable number has to do with helping to encourage gratitude among children who are fortunate enough not to have to deal with the difficulties that can come with poverty.

It is not surprising that this is an issue of people with a certain degree of privilege. Ding ding ding! That's the point.

You can't just talk children into gratitude and an awareness of their good fortune (though talking does help somewhat); you have to create an environment in which they can have the opportunity to genuinely feel it. Children who are overwhelmed with presents do not tend to feel grateful; they just feel overwhelmed.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Oh my gosh, yes! This is true for us. Dd was in tears at the end of Christmas last year. There was gift opening on Christmas Eve at my aunts house. Two hours. Three hours of it at my mom's house the next morning. A two hour drive to dh's parents for another SIX HOURS. Dd was 5 and asked if she could be done opening presents halfway through the third event.

The really sad part? Dh and I got one single gift from the two of us to her. It was wrapped and had traveled all over waiting for us to have a private moment to let her open it. It never happened. She never even noticed that there was not a gift from us. It did not matter anyway. My sister had gotten her the same gift (I did not know) and she had opened it earlier. So, I tucked it away to return once we got home. I had every intention of replacing it with another gift, but it seemed sort of pointless. She did not notice that we did not give her one and we were already struggling with finding places for the stuff she got. Adding to it was not a good thing.

I cannot explain how sad and MAD I was that the experience was taken away from us







One gift. We wanted to give our own child one gift. I know it was not done on purpose and our families would be mortified if they knew this happened. But it is what it is and I feel powerless to change it.

But you can change it. You have never told your families the results of their largess and their wanting you to participate in their holidays. They have no way of knowing how all that affected you and your dd. And it will happen again this year unless you do something about it. Tell them all that you can't do all 3 events this year. That you'll rotate among the families each year. Yes, the decision could cause hurt feelings but you need to do what is best for your family. Fortunately, I didn't have to make that decision when I got married. My family does Christmas Eve and dh's family does Christmas day. But my girls do. They rotate between their dh's family and ours every other year. Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter. All our collective extended families lives within 30-60 minutes of each other.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
It wasn't until my dh was in his late 20's that she stopped giving him a stocking from santa!

My mom still has stocking hung up (and now draped all over the fireplace) for all of us (from me, the oldest at 56, to the youngest, my grandson, who will be 11 months old, somewhere around 16 stockings so far) "from Santa". It's a family tradition. She even includes my sister's dogs and cats.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I am going to try very hard not to feel the need to defend our actions in the situation. Obviously if it were as easy as this, it would not have been a problem. The little girl in tears before she had even waded through half of the gifts in the final stop was of much more importance to us than carving out time to have her open our gift. Since half of the gifts were not open, my kid was in tears, and there was a bunch of relatives waiting to see her get to their gifts, all bets/plans/sanity had left the room. We did not expect people to "make a special time" for it. Again, obviously, since our families did not even know about it we were not expecting them to do such a thing. It is just very sad that the piles of gifts, the time it took to open them, and the resulting meltdown created a situation in which we were not able to enjoy the act of gifting our own child one gift on Christmas. Is that really hard to understand?

No it's not hard to understand. What I'm finding it hard to understand is what, if any, you have done about for this year? Forgive me if you have gotten to point in another post. This is as far as I've read.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

~pi;14723520
Those who are announcing some variant of said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> good point!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
As I'm reading your post, my grandson (age 4) is playing with the realistic plastic dinosaur that my daughter (his aunt, now 25) got when she was his age. That and the rest of her dinosaur collection is on the 3rd child to play with them. And I fully expect his brother to be playing with them in a few years. The Legos that my dds played with are now delighting their brother, 15 later. And the Duplo that he got is delighting his nephew and niece. It's not about whether or not the toy is wood, plastic, or metal. It's about whether or not the child will play with it. No matter what the toy is made of, it can be made well and last (or wear out from constant play) or it can be shoddily made and break the first time it's used.

True. But, she did specifically say "plastic crap". I could understand people objecting to Lego, for example, on environmental grounds, but I don't know anybody who would seriously call them "plastic _crap_". Also, in general, once a plastic toy is broken (difficult with the old Lego blocks), it's toast. A lot of wood, and even metal, toys can be repaired.

That said, I still have a few _old_ plastic toys, and my brother (46) has sons who play with his old Lego. There are some _very_ durable plastic toys out there.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
My mom still has stocking hung up (and now draped all over the fireplace) for all of us (from me, the oldest at 56, to the youngest, my grandson, who will be 11 months old, somewhere around 16 stockings so far) "from Santa". It's a family tradition. She even includes my sister's dogs and cats.

Yeah - I was sad when mom quit doing stockings. I remember once when she did them for my dad, my godmother (she's not, but it's the easiest shorthand), me, my siblings, and our significant others. It was awesome - especially as my godmother also did one for mom. We had all the "kids" (me and my siblings) old stockings out, with a plain red one from the store (for our SOs) beside them, two long socks for mom and my godmother, and a leg warmer with one end tied off for my dad.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

I haven't finished reading the whole thing yet, but this is a great thread topic OP. I agree with alot of your thoughts.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 

I've personally engaged with poverty (on a third world scale) and experienced elements of it (on a first world scale.) There is nothing about actually living in poverty that anyone who had a say in the matter would choose. It is not romantic.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but I'd be curious to know what posts are romanticizing poverty. If anything, on a global scale, I'd say the majority of the "I grew up 'poor'" posts are examples of 1st world privledge. Myself included. Yeah, my mom bought pickles in October and we didn't have a nintendo like other kids did, but we had a house and a car and food and and and...

BUT, it's all relative. We lived below the poverty level on a few occasions, and I know my mom did with out so us kids could have more. Anyway, long story short, sharing your experiences and what's has led you to making the decisions that you do (like being thankful for aweful poorly thought out gifts) isn't romaticing poverty. It's just a glimpse into one more perspective. I think a lot of what influences us today is who we were yesterday.

(I'm sorry in advance for any errors, I'm on my phone in the dark in our motel room... We're away for thanks giving.)


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Of course it is. It's a luxury to be able to make almost any choice at all.

That doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to make make thoughtful choices rather than just jumping on whatever default comes up first.

No it's not. But I find it interesting that this subject comes up only at this time of year (and on birthdays). When these discussions should be starting in January, not November. And probably during the first year of marriage and before kids. Gifts are on on-going discussion in my family which can help explain where I'm coming from. This year, for example, everyone is bringing can goods and non-perishables to Thanksgiving. My mom and dad will then take them all down to donate to the local shelter/food bank. We have donated money, toys, etc. collectively on Christmases past. Dh and I decided a long time ago to curtail our gift giving to our children on these days (birthdays, Christmas, Easter) and we give "just because" gifts at other times of the year instead. Angela's birthday , for example, is in September. Our birthday gift to her for the last 6 years was ComiCon tickets which occurs in July, a good 6-8 weeks before her birthday.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'd be curious to know what posts are romanticizing poverty.

Just a general vibe that I get on this thread and in other discussions I've had about this. (I think it's complicated by the fact that most people credit their experiences with poverty at some level as the source of their gratitude, which is not an unreasonable assumption.)

Hope you're having a nice trip!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
I find it interesting that this subject comes up only at this time of year (and on birthdays).

That's quite the ignorant assumption you're making there.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
No it's not. But I find it interesting that this subject comes up only at this time of year (and on birthdays). When these discussions should be starting in January, not November. And probably during the first year of marriage and before kids. Gifts are on on-going discussion in my family which can help explain where I'm coming from.

But, this is part of what the OP was originally discussing - the idea that etiquette trumps all and we're not "supposed" to have these discussions about gifts. If that works for some families, that's great. But, the fact that the rules of etiquette say we can't do that is part of the cultural issue she was addressing in the first place. According to the "rules", people are supposed to just gracefully accept all this stuff and never, ever address it. That's part of what she's questioning when she asks if this is a sign that our culture is sick.


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## minkin03 (May 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
Over time, as a society that has only one or two kids we direct more of our resources towards those kids and again it mushrooms. Ask some moms of many how many elaborate birthday parties at Chuck e. cheese or the American girl cafe they have (look at the Duggars) and you'll be hard pressed to find them because once you have more than 1 or 2 kids you just cannot do it or your life would be ruled by birthday party planning. Moms to many limit the number of gifts their kids can ask for (just like I'm sure many who don't have many do as well) but when it comes to the grandparents it becomes necessary for them to limit as well.

i disagree. you can't assume just b/c somebody has less kids they'll spoil them more or buy them more. there are so many factors that contribute to how much somebody would spend on their kids. it's not necessarily relevant to the size of the family. the duggars aren't your average family either.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

How about this angle...

Are you familiar with Samaritan's Purse (and their Christmas Shoeboxes)? You fill a shoebox with toys/school supplies/stuff and it gets delivered as a gift to kids in 3rd world countries. We put together two this year - one for a little girl about DD's age, and one for a little boy about DS's age. DD helped find the stuff and really liked doing it. But it was hard - a shoebox full is a lot of stuff if you aren't buying dollar store junk and big plastic toys.

So, is sending boxes full of random toys to kids in 3rd world countries a good thing and nice way of spreading the wealth, or is it more a way of spreading the "disease" being discussed in this thread?

Tjej


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
But, this is part of what the OP was originally discussing - the idea that etiquette trumps all and we're not "supposed" to have these discussions about gifts. If that works for some families, that's great. But, the fact that the rules of etiquette say we can't do that is part of the cultural issue she was addressing in the first place. According to the "rules", people are supposed to just gracefully accept all this stuff and never, ever address it. That's part of what she's questioning when she asks if this is a sign that our culture is sick.

Where? No etiquette book I've ever read ever said that gifts could never be discussed. They can't be dictated (beyond gift lists and registries) or demanded on invitations (i.e. money can't be requested). But in general conversations, as in "where are we going to spend holidays" or "what does so-and-so want?", sure. And as the family matures, gift giving changes. New couples and new parents might not have the money to buy gifts for second cousins. Parents are paying for college and don't have the extra money. Grandparents are now living on a fixed income. The couple decides to only give gifts to children under x age. Then tells the rest of the extended family what their decision is and why. But these conversations need to be had early in the year, not in November or on Christmas Day.

I have come to realize just how lucky I am in my extended family. We have these discussions throughout the year. Years ago, we all collectively decided that adults don't need Christmas presents. We do a gift exchange instead. Where the grown children (and now grand children) spend the holidays is up to them. We do a head count so we know how many chairs to put at the table just before every holiday. And cake and ice cream with grandparents is more exciting to the kids than presents.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Beyond the relationship issues, I really do not believe this sort of thing is healthy:

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/toys/

It's a commercial for a contest in which you can win 500 toys, and has a river of toys flooding into the house through the window, door, every possible opening. The kids can't make out any particular toy, they just stand there and clap delightedly as wave after wave of stuff flows past them.

The ideal holiday being presented to children isn't spending time with family, or opening one carefully thought out gift from someone who loves you, or seeing the joy on someone else's face when you get them a gift that's appreciated. It's about Having Lots of Stuff and consuming the most resources, it's about having your house completely flooded and taken over by Things For You!.

There is a point when too much becomes a problem. I think it's a better problem to have than too little (because the solution is far simpler), but when family gets in the way of solving that problem it escalates dramatically.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Where? No etiquette book I've ever read ever said that gifts could never be discussed. They can't be dictated (beyond gift lists and registries) or demanded on invitations (i.e. money can't be requested). But in general conversations, as in "where are we going to spend holidays" or "what does so-and-so want?", sure.

I've never read a book of etiquette and probably never will. I'm pretty sure my head would explode. However, Miss Manners is widely considered to be _the_ modern etiquette expert. She says that one can't dictate gifts. You agree. This is part of what this thread is about - how one can handle these issues (overgifting, totally inappropriate gifts) without breaching etiquette, and whether one's values (environment, sweatshop labour, etc.) or etiquette should "win". For instance, according to etiquette (at least according to Miss Manners), requesting "no gifts" is a no-no, because it demonstrates that one expects to receive gifts. The conflict between following this rule and coping with the overload is one of the key points of the OP. Obviously, some people here feel that it's okay to ignore the rule. That's fine. But, it doesn't mean the OP's concerns are invalid, or that it's as simple as saying, "we don't want that much stuff, so please cut back". If it were, the thread wouldn't even exist.

Quote:

And as the family matures, gift giving changes. New couples and new parents might not have the money to buy gifts for second cousins. Parents are paying for college and don't have the extra money. Grandparents are now living on a fixed income. The couple decides to only give gifts to children under x age. Then tells the rest of the extended family what their decision is and why. But these conversations need to be had early in the year, not in November or on Christmas Day.
We had one of those discussions in our family last November, and it worked out fine. There's no rule about when people can discuss the changes. There's also no one reaction to be expected. There are people here who have family members who sneer at handmade gifts, who get bent out of shape when a couple with a baby, living on a modest income, can't cough up the same amount on Christmas gifts for extended family as a single person earning twice as much. Those issues don't just go away because said couple decides they're not exchanging gifts this year.

There seem to be an ongoing trend in this thread to think that people who get too much stuff and/or are having trouble coping with gifts that don't fit their values, are just creating issues and/or that they just need to say something. I'm just saying that 1) saying something is in violation of the principle of etiquette that says you can't behave as though you're expecting a gift (absolutely asinine in my book, but whatever), and 2) saying something _does not work_ with a lot of people.

Quote:

I have come to realize just how lucky I am in my extended family. We have these discussions throughout the year.
Likewise...although I feel we're lucky that we don't have to have them throughout the year. We discuss things as they come up - even if that means late November or early December.

Quote:

Years ago, we all collectively decided that adults don't need Christmas presents. We do a gift exchange instead.
I'm not sure what you mean here, but that's fine. Families all deal with things in different ways.

Quote:

Where the grown children (and now grand children) spend the holidays is up to them. We do a head count so we know how many chairs to put at the table just before every holiday.
Until I came here, it never occurred to me that anybody did things any differently. I can't imagine dealing with some of the emotionally manipulative crap and guilt trips and what have you that many of our fellow MDC posters get handed.

Quote:

And cake and ice cream with grandparents is more exciting to the kids than presents.
Again, likewise. My family don't go overboard, don't bully my children about opening presents, and we (immediate and extended family) all focus on many things other than presents. The centerpiece of the big family gathering is the dinner with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins, not the gift opening. I don't have to worry about the etiquette of these issues, because we don't have major conflicts. I don't assume everyone is as lucky as I am, though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
Beyond the relationship issues, I really do not believe this sort of thing is healthy:

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/toys/

It's a commercial for a contest in which you can win 500 toys, and has a river of toys flooding into the house through the window, door, every possible opening. The kids can't make out any particular toy, they just stand there and clap delightedly as wave after wave of stuff flows past them.

That is absolutely grotesque...

Quote:

The ideal holiday being presented to children isn't spending time with family, or opening one carefully thought out gift from someone who loves you, or seeing the joy on someone else's face when you get them a gift that's appreciated. It's about Having Lots of Stuff and consuming the most resources, it's about having your house completely flooded and taken over by Things For You!.
Yeah. I think things are getting a little nuts. I certainly remember toys being advertised when I was a kid, and I remember...guess they're "lifestyle" ads or something...about Christmas morning. I didn't even like those, because of that "the perfect gift will give him/her a better life" vibe. But, at least it was usually a whole family, interacting with each other, while a person opened _one_ special gift. That flood of toys imagery was beyond icky.

Quote:

There is a point when too much becomes a problem. I think it's a better problem to have than too little (because the solution is far simpler), but when family gets in the way of solving that problem it escalates dramatically.
This.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Does anyone else find it completely boggling that it isn't appropriate to act in any way like you are expecting gifts, but there are certain occasions where it isn't appropriate to show up without a gift (ie, baby shower, wedding, birthday party)?

I personally think that the whole book of etiquette, while it can be nice in directing people on how to be polite and respectful about certain things, is way to specific and authoritarian. Seriously, I can't have the relationship I want with my mother because ETIQUETTE says I can't talk to her about this stuff? I know that solving this issue won't solve the whole problem, but it's a great place for me to start because it's concrete, I can offer the solution in very plain terms, and we can both judge its progress pretty immediately. "Please stop being so passive aggressive" is so much harder to talk about than "I would prefer that we spend more time as a family and less time and resources on gifts this year".

Can all the pro-etiquette people really think of no way in which etiquette is outdated? I mean, I still set my table the "proper" way, but it really has no bearing on whether or not our dinners turn out well. I really don't see a problem with re-writing the book when it is a detriment to the way you manage your relationship with your family. Nothing that is damaging is worth doing, IMO.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
Does anyone else find it completely boggling that it isn't appropriate to act in any way like you are expecting gifts, but there are certain occasions where it isn't appropriate to show up without a gift (ie, baby shower, wedding, birthday party)?

This is exactly why I hate that particular "rule". It's just so totally bizarre. I also don't think it does anything to keep things respectful when you have people out looking for gifts for kids they don't know, and the parents don't even want anything, but nobody is "allowed" to say anything (eg. parties with friends from school). It's weird.

Quote:

Nothing that is damaging is worth doing, IMO.
I like that way of looking at it.

I also have issues with etiquette, because I think it fails to make allowances for cultural diversity (very Euro-centric...actually, very British-centric, I think) and "class". Much of it really evolved to apply to the "upper" class, imo.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Storm Bride said:


> This is exactly why I hate that particular "rule". It's just so totally bizarre. I also don't think it does anything to keep things respectful when you have people out looking for gifts for kids they don't know, and the parents don't even want anything, but nobody is "allowed" to say anything (eg. parties with friends from school). It's weird.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly. Why should we follow rules that keep us from communicating openly with one another? That's really something I value most in my life, so for this issue, etiquette goes out the window.


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## RoadBuddy (May 19, 2005)

The original point of etiquette was to codify how to treat others with respect, but on this issue, I think the culture has outgrown the etiquette. Gifting is so prevalent and so much more extreme than in years past, so I think the issue is more in need of being addressed.

So I try to think in terms of respect. Is it respectful to tell my MIL that the gift she chose sucks, won't be allowed in my home, and is toxic? No. Is it respectful to engage in conversations BEFORE gifts are bought about what kind of values we like in items, and to provide sensible suggestions if asked? IMO, yes. I can converse about preferences - respecting that she's going to buy a gift and I assume would not like to waste money on something we won't use. If given a gift we disagree with, we thank the giver graciously and then return or donate to someone who will appreciate it.

The corollary is that givers need to respect the wishes of the recipient. So if I am clear in conversations throughout the year that we prefer non-character toys, the giver really should try to go along with that. Sure, there are grey areas where people will disagree over what counts as a character toy, but givers do need to try to meet the recipients preferences. That doesn't mean only buying off a list, but it does mean giving some thought and not just buying whatever the giver happens to like. Recipients need to be reasonable in their expectations, too (not everyone can afford or find hand-crafted non-toxic safely painted eco-friendly wood toys with no corporate ties or components made in certain countries!). I'm pretty appalled at the threads where someone's family purposely buys a gift they know the recipient will really dislike (except in the case of white elephant parties, then it can be funny!). People will guess wrong and give gifts that bomb, but TRYING to do so in order to annoy someone is certainly a sign of a problem somewhere. It seems in these cases the "gift" is a weapon to express hostility towards the recipients lifestyle, choices, or just in general. THAT is certainly a sign of a sick culture.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoadBuddy* 
The original point of etiquette was to codify how to treat others with respect, but on this issue, I think the culture has outgrown the etiquette. Gifting is so prevalent and so much more extreme than in years past, so I think the issue is more in need of being addressed.

So I try to think in terms of respect. Is it respectful to tell my MIL that the gift she chose sucks, won't be allowed in my home, and is toxic? No. Is it respectful to engage in conversations BEFORE gifts are bought about what kind of values we like in items, and to provide sensible suggestions if asked? IMO, yes. I can converse about preferences - respecting that she's going to buy a gift and I assume would not like to waste money on something we won't use. If given a gift we disagree with, we thank the giver graciously and then return or donate to someone who will appreciate it.

The corollary is that givers need to respect the wishes of the recipient. So if I am clear in conversations throughout the year that we prefer non-character toys, the giver really should try to go along with that. Sure, there are grey areas where people will disagree over what counts as a character toy, but givers do need to try to meet the recipients preferences. That doesn't mean only buying off a list, but it does mean giving some thought and not just buying whatever the giver happens to like. Recipients need to be reasonable in their expectations, too (not everyone can afford or find hand-crafted non-toxic safely painted eco-friendly wood toys with no corporate ties or components made in certain countries!). I'm pretty appalled at the threads where someone's family purposely buys a gift they know the recipient will really dislike (except in the case of white elephant parties, then it can be funny!). People will guess wrong and give gifts that bomb, but TRYING to do so in order to annoy someone is certainly a sign of a problem somewhere. It seems in these cases the "gift" is a weapon to express hostility towards the recipients lifestyle, choices, or just in general. THAT is certainly a sign of a sick culture.

I agree that a respectful giver gives according to prior discussions with the recipient. I'd like to submit this idea, though: the shopping frenzy.

What do I mean? Let me give you a story...

I frequently talk with MIL about how our kids play (really, they hardly touch their piles of toys, the mostly play with the laundry baskets and blankets, or dress up stuff), I guess I assumed that since I talk about it frequently at least SOME of that idea would get through. Honestly, I think it's weird that my kids don't play with their toys, but it is what it is. Anyway, not only that, but MIL is/was a pre-k teacher for her career. Not even 5 years ago, she had *ranted* to me about how "kids these days" don't know how to play with toys that don't make noise and she had to teach her pre-k kids how to play with things like blocks, wooden fire trucks, what have you. What does MIL buy for my kids? Plastic, noisy, flashing toys. The only reason I can come up with to explain this conundrum is the idea of the shopping frenzy... that is, you know how store displays are DESIGNED (millions of dollars are spent on this kinds of research!) to make you WANT that item? I think she gets into some sort of a shopping trance and the displays work on her. I call this a shopping frenzy... like she gets into the shopping groove and more and more stuff looks "good" to her and she buys it. I can't come up with another reason why a woman who used to rant about noisy toys now buys them almost exclusively for my kids. Of course, the quiet beautiful wooden toys are not pushed in the same way (I suspect because the profit margin isn't as good? Or they're in stores where MIL doesn't go) so she gets sucked into the noisy ones... and many of them.

Honestly, the amount of money spent on research into how to properly advertise/push "stuff" on the consumer, in advertisements or in the store *has* to account for some of the absurdity. I mean, the perfect point was the ad someone mentioned up thread with all the toys pouring out of the house, but beyond that, there's so many forms of marketing and advertisement that's being pushed on shoppers at any given moment - and it's all been heavily researched to have an effect on the widest demographic of consumers. I think it's more than just a cultural problem, unless we count corporate business practices as our culture.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
Honestly, the amount of money spent on research into how to properly advertise/push "stuff" on the consumer, in advertisements or in the store *has* to account for some of the absurdity.

I agree. I got sucked into the Spike display at Target. I must have sat there for 20 minutes pushing that darn button to get the dinosaur to stand up and walk, and I seriously walked out of there saying "I want a Spike The Dinosaur".







How??

Marketing is evil. It is dedicated specifically to making people want stuff. That's what it's for. Every demographic is targeted in its own way (I used to date a guy in marketing and the research is insane!).


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree. I got sucked into the Spike display at Target. I must have sat there for 20 minutes pushing that darn button to get the dinosaur to stand up and walk, and I seriously walked out of there saying "I want a Spike The Dinosaur".







How??

Marketing is evil. It is dedicated specifically to making people want stuff. That's what it's for. Every demographic is targeted in its own way (I used to date a guy in marketing and the research is insane!).

I hear ya. Marketing is the devil I swear. I just watched the Consuming Kids documentary this week and honestly it made me nauseous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lPJo...eature=related


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I guess I assumed that since I talk about it frequently at least SOME of that idea would get through. Honestly, I think it's weird that my kids don't play with their toys, but it is what it is. Anyway, not only that, but MIL is/was a pre-k teacher for her career. Not even 5 years ago, she had *ranted* to me about how "kids these days" don't know how to play with toys that don't make noise and she had to teach her pre-k kids how to play with things like blocks, wooden fire trucks, what have you. What does MIL buy for my kids? Plastic, noisy, flashing toys. The only reason I can come up with to explain this conundrum is the idea of the shopping frenzy... that is, you know how store displays are DESIGNED (millions of dollars are spent on this kinds of research!) to make you WANT that item? I think she gets into some sort of a shopping trance and the displays work on her. I call this a shopping frenzy... like she gets into the shopping groove and more and more stuff looks "good" to her and she buys it. I can't come up with another reason why a woman who used to rant about noisy toys now buys them almost exclusively for my kids. Of course, the quiet beautiful wooden toys are not pushed in the same way (I suspect because the profit margin isn't as good? Or they're in stores where MIL doesn't go) so she gets sucked into the noisy ones... and many of them.

Honestly, the amount of money spent on research into how to properly advertise/push "stuff" on the consumer, in advertisements or in the store *has* to account for some of the absurdity. I mean, the perfect point was the ad someone mentioned up thread with all the toys pouring out of the house, but beyond that, there's so many forms of marketing and advertisement that's being pushed on shoppers at any given moment - and it's all been heavily researched to have an effect on the widest demographic of consumers. I think it's more than just a cultural problem, unless we count corporate business practices as our culture.

I've only been lurking on this thread, but YES. Our extended family is well aware of the glut of toys my kids have, as well as the toys they play with the most, but MIL has openly admitted that once she's in a toy store she "just can't help herself" and that most of the toys she buys, she buys because she was having fun playing with it in the store. Hence the TAG reader thing my 4yo is getting. And the $50 (!!!) dancing, joke-telling dump truck GMIL bought my boys because they had a display in the store and "it was the neatest thing!" It amazes me that otherwise sane, reasonable adults can be so easily taken in by clever marketing and displays.

I've come to terms with the gift issue within my family. Birthdays and holidays used to send me into fits over the "crap" people bought, but really, no one is doing it to be manipulative or to spite me. They buy this stuff because they love my kids and genuinely think all this stuff will help make them happy. I can't change that about them. The family members who buy the most toys - MIL and GMIL - spend the most time with my kids and really are great with them, so it's not a "buying love" thing and I know that's not the message my kids are getting. They never even remember who bought what. I do feel guilty that they insist on spending loads of money on things my kids will hardly play with after the first week, though.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree that marketing is a factor but other cultures have had elaborate gift-giving practices waaaaay before marketing, like the potlach tradition in some first nations cultures: http://www.kwakiutl.bc.ca/culture/potlatch.htm


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

well i am guilty of overspending, i can't help it i love buying presents for people not just my kids,i made little hampers for my mum, sister, dad and his gf last christmas, my kiddies usually get 3 main pressies from me and then a stocking with a colouring book, crayons/felts and sweets.
i don't see anything wrong with limiting gifts if your kiddies are used to this from an early age then they will probebly be less likely to ask for everything they see i hate toy adverts with a passion everytime they come i get the "can i have" or "i want that"


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dantesmama* 
They never even remember who bought what.

I'm a little baffled by this. Don't you remind them who got them what? Don't you talk about it later? DD just had her birthday and we've certainly discussed her presents and what she got from whom a few times. She still remember most of her Christmas presents from last year (mostly on her own, although she does ask us when she forgets).


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

This is a very interesting thread...thank you for opening it.

My grief is with the whole commercialization of........stuff. The impact of it is seen in so many ways. the way children act in stores when they don't get they want, or the way people act when the newest, best thing comes out on the market (like people getting stampeded on Black Friday, fighting with other parents over a toy, rudeness to those around them, or general bad adult behavior or even just standing in line all night to get the newest best video game system). It's almost like people concentrate more on what they want, or what they can get instead of realizing how greedy it all really is.

I have a niece and nephew that have divorced parents. Now because these children have divorced parents the rest of the family thinks they owe it to the children to get what ever it is these children want. Literally these children have everything. They are older now but it extends itself to more clothing, cars or whatever it is they want. That part doesn't bother me...what bothers me is that these children have come to believe they deserve it, there is no thankfulness there, no graciousness at all. It's very hard for me to feel any kind of empathy for them in any way shape or form. Their mother is very materialistic so she only feeds the situation, making it worse. Their father is no-confrontational so of course he doesn't defuse the situation at all.

I try very hard to instill thankfulness in my own children...I guess that is all I can do. We could afford to give our children some of these things....I guess...but I don't.....I just really want them to know that things are not that important. If it's something really expensive that they want, they have to earn the money to buy it.

DH and I don't think we will be paying for college either just because if they have to pay for themselves then they will recognize the cost of a good education, and be more likely to put more into it if they understand the value of it. I think too many kids look at college as a ticket to get away from mom and dad and spend their time partying and wasting time.

I really, really want my children to be thankful for the things they get, for what they have, or appreciate the things they need. I want them to understand what it takes for them to get these things. I want them to understand it doesn't come easy. Things have value when they have to be worked for.


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm a little baffled by this. Don't you remind them who got them what? Don't you talk about it later? DD just had her birthday and we've certainly discussed her presents and what she got from whom a few times. She still remember most of her Christmas presents from last year (mostly on her own, although she does ask us when she forgets).

Yes, of course I talk about it with them, but they're only 2 and 4 and I wouldn't even expect them to remember who bought gift #8 as opposed to gift #24 as opposed to gift #50. We have a massive extended family (mostly ILs) and my kids are the only young children in our "branch" of the family, so people jump at the opportunity to shop for toys again. My 4yo will remember who gave him a few favorites but honestly, even I have trouble keeping it all straight. We return/donate/give away a good portion of their gifts right off the bat because of the sheer volume.


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
This is a great point. We have this problem with some relatives, also. How thoughtfully can a gift be picked out, if the giver really knows nothing about the giftee?

I have not yet read the rest of the thread but this is why our out of town relatives typically ask for a list of what our kids would like, what size clothes they're in now, etc. They do not have to stick to the list, but when they haven't, several times they've duplicated stuff the kids already have, that is not at their developmental stage (like a 10 piece puzzle when the kids were already doing 100+ pc), or bought clothing that is too small. I see nothing wrong with not giving those things to the kids - it is just disappointing for them and gives them a negative association with the giver, who is likely someone they only see once every 2-5 years. No opportunity to build a real relationship with that type of visiting schedule. That is heading OT, I guess.

This thread has been good food for thought, about the power of stuff in our lives even as we try to reduce. It is still a focus on things. I hadn't thought of it that way before, but that said I don't know how to change that in an effort to reduce what comes into our home, and pass along things we no longer need or don't work for us. It is definitely a by-product of living in a relatively wealthy, capitalist/consumerist society. But that is where we live and that is our life. There is no clear answer for me about how to avoid it.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never read a book of etiquette and probably never will. I'm pretty sure my head would explode. However, Miss Manners is widely considered to be _the_ modern etiquette expert. She says that one can't dictate gifts. You agree. This is part of what this thread is about - how one can handle these issues (overgifting, totally inappropriate gifts) without breaching etiquette, and whether one's values (environment, sweatshop labour, etc.) or etiquette should "win". For instance, according to etiquette (at least according to Miss Manners), requesting "no gifts" is a no-no, because it demonstrates that one expects to receive gifts. The conflict between following this rule and coping with the overload is one of the key points of the OP. Obviously, some people here feel that it's okay to ignore the rule. That's fine. But, it doesn't mean the OP's concerns are invalid, or that it's as simple as saying, "we don't want that much stuff, so please cut back". If it were, the thread wouldn't even exist.

We had one of those discussions in our family last November, and it worked out fine. There's no rule about when people can discuss the changes. There's also no one reaction to be expected. There are people here who have family members who sneer at handmade gifts, who get bent out of shape when a couple with a baby, living on a modest income, can't cough up the same amount on Christmas gifts for extended family as a single person earning twice as much. Those issues don't just go away because said couple decides they're not exchanging gifts this year.

There seem to be an ongoing trend in this thread to think that people who get too much stuff and/or are having trouble coping with gifts that don't fit their values, are just creating issues and/or that they just need to say something. I'm just saying that 1) saying something is in violation of the principle of etiquette that says you can't behave as though you're expecting a gift (absolutely asinine in my book, but whatever), and 2) saying something _does not work_ with a lot of people.

Likewise...although I feel we're lucky that we don't have to have them throughout the year. We discuss things as they come up - even if that means late November or early December.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but that's fine. Families all deal with things in different ways.

Until I came here, it never occurred to me that anybody did things any differently. I can't imagine dealing with some of the emotionally manipulative crap and guilt trips and what have you that many of our fellow MDC posters get handed.

Again, likewise. My family don't go overboard, don't bully my children about opening presents, and we (immediate and extended family) all focus on many things other than presents. The centerpiece of the big family gathering is the dinner with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins, not the gift opening. I don't have to worry about the etiquette of these issues, because we don't have major conflicts. I don't assume everyone is as lucky as I am, though.

What I'm trying to say (and not doing so well, I think) is that the time to have the discussion about going to 3 events in less than 24 hours (to use one of the examples already mentioned) is in January when the results are fresh in everyone's minds. The parents call, email, etc. everyone saying that their child can't handle it and we shouldn't have agreed to going to every event so next year we go to x's house and spend the rest of the holiday at home. Then in November when everyone starts pressuring about coming to our house this year, the parents can point back to the original conversation and say we agreed to going to x's house and that's what we are planning on doing. This is our new tradition. It might take a few years, but by repeatedly politely stating what was decided, it will be accepted; it will become tradition. And by restricting where you go, that automaticly restricts the number of presents. Any excess that comes in the mail can be removed without the child knowing what it is, if that's what the parents decide or given later.

My point is that the grandparents made their traditions when they got married and had kids; the great grandparents did it; the aunts and uncles did it. And now it's the next generation's turn.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
Does anyone else find it completely boggling that it isn't appropriate to act in any way like you are expecting gifts, but there are certain occasions where it isn't appropriate to show up without a gift (ie, baby shower, wedding, birthday party)?


I have shown up at invited affairs where gifts are usually expected without a gift. And so have my kids. If I don't know the person well enough (usually in the case of a child's birthday party) or if we don't have the money, we show up without one. There have been times when my child doesn't know the birthday child well outside of being in the same classroom, my child declines the invitation. Or transportation is problematical. There is no etiquette rule that says that all invitations have to be accepted. And no explanation is required beyond a polite decline.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
I have shown up at invited affairs where gifts are usually expected without a gift. And so have my kids. If I don't know the person well enough (usually in the case of a child's birthday party) or if we don't have the money, we show up without one. There have been times when my child doesn't know the birthday child well outside of being in the same classroom, my child declines the invitation. Or transportation is problematical. There is no etiquette rule that says that all invitations have to be accepted. And no explanation is required beyond a polite decline.

When we invite classmates to b-day parties, I'd much rather have the kids come without a gift than just not come because they can't bring a gift for whatever reason. Just come and help the birthday kid celebrate the day!


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is exactly why I hate that particular "rule". It's just so totally bizarre. I also don't think it does anything to keep things respectful when you have people out looking for gifts for kids they don't know, and the parents don't even want anything, but nobody is "allowed" to say anything (eg. parties with friends from school). It's weird.

I like that way of looking at it.

I also have issues with etiquette, because I think it fails to make allowances for cultural diversity (very Euro-centric...actually, very British-centric, I think) and "class". Much of it really evolved to apply to the "upper" class, imo.

But that isn't an etiquette rule. It has become expected but it's not a rule. And that's why according to etiquette you can't dictate gifts on the invitation or ask for money. But people do. People exceed the speed limit as well. But it's still wrong. And etiquette is all about culture. That's why eating with the fingers and burping is polite etiquette in the Middle East and smacking one's lips is polite etiquette in the Far East. In some cultures, everyone eats from the same common bowl. In Muslim countries, you only eat with the right hand. And men don't shake hands with women. Etiquette defines a culture. The problem in the US, is that we are so diverse that we don't have one common culture. Our etiquette rules are from northern Europe but our citizens come from all over the world. And we are in the process of creating our own. Which brings me back to your point. So we do agree. Where we differ, I think, is that while I don't feel obligated to perpetuate the imported rules, many posting on this thread do.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree. I got sucked into the Spike display at Target. I must have sat there for 20 minutes pushing that darn button to get the dinosaur to stand up and walk, and I seriously walked out of there saying "I want a Spike The Dinosaur".







How??

Marketing is evil. It is dedicated specifically to making people want stuff. That's what it's for. Every demographic is targeted in its own way (I used to date a guy in marketing and the research is insane!).

Marketing isn't evil. Marketing didn't chain you to the toy and force you to push the button for 20 minutes. That was your choice. You had the freedom to glance at the toy and walk away. Sure, it's marketing job to try and get you to want their product. But the responsibility is still yours in saying yes or no. You (collectively) have the choice to tell your children no. Dealing with a disappointed child is part of being a parent. Whether it's because you said no to a toy or because it's raining outside and you can't take the child to the park like you had planned.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Marketing isn't evil. Marketing didn't chain you to the toy and force you to push the button for 20 minutes. That was your choice. You had the freedom to glance at the toy and walk away.

While I agree that the responsibility for buying or not buying something is our own, I do think marketing to children is pretty close to evil. Marketing is the intentional manipulation of another person by playing to their vulnerabilities, insecurities, and desires in order to get them to do something that benefits the marketer. And children aren't developmentally able to understand and think about these messages the way adults can.

Someone trying to psychologically manipulate my children's emotions, values, identity, and feelings of self worth in order to make money for themselves? Using people (children!) as a means for your own benefit without regard for their well being? Evil.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I think the marketing of infant formulas in 3rd world countries is an example of evil marketing as well.

So really, noone has any thoughts on the Samaritan's purse boxes?

Tjej


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I agree that marketing is a factor but other cultures have had elaborate gift-giving practices waaaaay before marketing, like the potlach tradition in some first nations cultures: http://www.kwakiutl.bc.ca/culture/potlatch.htm

True, but I'm guessing that the gifts given at a traditional Potlach were at least things the recipients could/can _use_.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
But that isn't an etiquette rule. It has become expected but it's not a rule. And that's why according to etiquette you can't dictate gifts on the invitation or ask for money. But people do. People exceed the speed limit as well. But it's still wrong. And etiquette is all about culture. That's why eating with the fingers and burping is polite etiquette in the Middle East and smacking one's lips is polite etiquette in the Far East. In some cultures, everyone eats from the same common bowl. In Muslim countries, you only eat with the right hand. And men don't shake hands with women. Etiquette defines a culture. The problem in the US, is that we are so diverse that we don't have one common culture. Our etiquette rules are from northern Europe but our citizens come from all over the world. And we are in the process of creating our own. Which brings me back to your point. So we do agree. Where we differ, I think, is that while I don't feel obligated to perpetuate the imported rules, many posting on this thread do.

I don't perpetuate those rules, either.

The point I was making (and also apparently not doing so very well) is that the question of the rule itself is part of what the OP was addressing. It's not something tangential to the discussion about how to handle the overload of gifts. It's _part_ of the issue with handling it, and part of her comments/questions about our culture being sick.

This might not be an actual rule, but it is one that's pushed by Miss Manners. I don't mean there's a rule that people can't talk about gifts at all. I refer to the "rule" that one _must_ not behave in any fashion that suggests they're expecting a gift. This precludes suggesting limits or requesting no gift or anything of that sort. It does seem to contribute to a lot of the gifting issues that people have.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the timing of the discussion, either. It sounds good. It should be the way to handle it. But, family dynamics can be very complicated. For many people, there does come a time where they're trying to choose between putting up with excessive gift exchanges and losing their relationship with people. I also don't think that saying "we're going to X's house this year, and we told you that in January" is going to stop a determined gift giver. What happens when they show up at your house, while your kids are home, with the whole stack in hand?

ETA: I do agree that we're in agreement on a lot of this stuff. But, I have a mostly functional family, with just enough experience with dysfunctional members to be able to imagine what it would be like to deal with a lot of them. *shudder*


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Here's the Miss Manners Q&A

Quote:

Dear Miss Manners,
Is it ever appropriate to request fewer presents at Christmas? It is becoming more and more frustrating at how many presents my mother-in-law showers upon our son. And now that we have a daughter too, I am afraid of coming home with a lot more stuff that never gets touched. She never includes gift receipts and I feel it is rude to ask for them. Instead we wind up giving them away to day cares or churches that have toy drives. Should we simply continue the giving away or could we ever ask the poor woman to decrease spending her husband's hard earned money?

Gentle Reader,
The polite approach would be to praise her generosity and then muse that you worry that the children are so overwhelmed that they can't really appreciate it. Miss Manners would think it easier, however, to be silently grateful that your mother-in-law's generosity enables you to benefit needier children.

Here's the link:
http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationshi...entid=15946909

She answers a question about requesting certain gifts at the end, too.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Hi all! I have not had much chance to respond but have been reading on a daily basis. Lots of good points still trickling in. I cannot respond to each one but will say Storm Bride is right on with what my motivations were for starting the thread and with her explanations of why things are not always simple. Even in our relatively "functional" family, there are all sorts of reasons why there is no simple solution. I have been reading Sewchris's responses. Her perspective, along with others further upstream, suggest that it is simple for some families. A discussion or change of travel plans can help minimize gift issues. I wish this were always the case. Simple communication is simply not effective for some people.

In evaluating my own family, there are several factors in play. We do mix up our travel, event, and visiting plans each year. Physically being there does not have any effect on the number of gifts we receive. Without exception, each person who gives us gifts for holidays and birthdays will send them if we are not going to see them.

My dh and I have been married for 12.5 years. We have been talking about our lifestyle choices since day one. The gift issue has been a topic of conversation far before we had a child. As I mentioned in the OP, we have gone against the etiquette "rules" and have heartily attempted to make it known that gift giving (in our case, specifically size and quantity) has a very real negative effect in our house. We have attempted, with limited success, to make some "rules" about the numbers and size. I have been trying to figure out why the message is not getting through. Because we are working with a large group of people with differing ages, lifestyles, locations, histories, and relationships (to us), I believe the reasons the communication is not effective vary widely and includes:

1. Simply not caring and feeling that gift giving is more about the giver than the receiver.
2. Not understanding how or why too many gifts could ever be a problem.
3. Not believing the message applies to them...."Surely since I am the only great-aunt on this side of the family, the rule does not apply to ME."
4. Believing that the lifestyle choices my dh have made are "depriving" our dd.
5. Not having been to our house so not having seen the real impact.
6. Not understanding or being able to hear what we mean (this is common among the our dear elderly relatives).
7. Not having any other children to shop for and therefore not being able to "help themselves".
8. Buying into the marketing and commercialization.
9. Spitefulness (rare in our family but is a small issue).
10. Believe we are saying it to be polite ala "your presence is present enough" and do not really mean it.

I am sure there are others and each one requires a different discussion. We could start talking on December 26 and not stop until the following year and still not have gotten to a point where there could be a real change. I am AMAZED and grateful that despite our very diverse family and friend circle that we do not have bigger issues.....as in no one is buying dd guns, violent video games, or other toys that are in direct and serious conflict with our values.

I was not aiming or hoping to solve our immediate problems by starting this thread. It just got me very curious as to how we got into this mess and how we as a culture could address this so that it will not continue to spiral out of control. Dh and I jokingly suggested that grandma buy dd a storage unit rental for Christmas. Or perhaps a new and BIGGER house. That's the answer!

I am hoping this discussion will continue. I am back from my trip and able to be more present here.

For anyone following this thread closely and that is STILL not getting enough, I am going to start another spin-off in TAO. More fun about gifting and who it should really "be about", personal ethics, and family harmony. It would be off topic in this thread and does not specifically apply to parenting, so that is why I am not starting it here. I hope to see some of you there


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
So really, noone has any thoughts on the Samaritan's purse boxes?

It's a great idea! (We do other things through non-religious organizations but I think that looks like a wonderful organization.)


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
We have attempted, with limited success, to make some "rules" about the numbers and size. I have been trying to figure out why the message is not getting through.

Yooper, I am willing to bet that if you set a simple, clear, numerical limit *and enforce it*, the message will be much more likely to get through.

We didn't actually have to follow through on enforcement, but we were willing to, and I think that's part of how setting limits worked for us. I.e., we were willing to say, flat out, that we would be opening three gifts, and any gifts beyond that we would be taking directly to a donation point, unopened.

FWIW, we finally got to this point after going to family therapy (for this issue among others) and the therapist telling me (in private) that the relatives I was dealing with were sort of stuck at the emotional maturity of a three year old. That was a huge light bulb moment for me -- if I had limits, I had to be willing to follow through on enforcing them. I couldn't expect the relatives in question to make it easy for me; they didn't even recognize that my limits truly existed.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I believe the reasons the communication is not effective vary widely and includes:

1. Simply not caring and feeling that gift giving is more about the giver than the receiver.
2. Not understanding how or why too many gifts could ever be a problem.
3. Not believing the message applies to them...."Surely since I am the only great-aunt on this side of the family, the rule does not apply to ME."
4. Believing that the lifestyle choices my dh have made are "depriving" our dd.
5. Not having been to our house so not having seen the real impact.
6. Not understanding or being able to hear what we mean (this is common among the our dear elderly relatives).
7. Not having any other children to shop for and therefore not being able to "help themselves".
8. Buying into the marketing and commercialization.
9. Spitefulness (rare in our family but is a small issue).
10. Believe we are saying it to be polite a la "your presence is present enough" and do not really mean it.

My guess is that primary among these is a combination of 1 and 10. They do not take you seriously, you don't have authority in their minds, yet.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dantesmama* 
Yes, of course I talk about it with them, but they're only 2 and 4 and I wouldn't even expect them to remember who bought gift #8 as opposed to gift #24 as opposed to gift #50. We have a massive extended family (mostly ILs) and my kids are the only young children in our "branch" of the family, so people jump at the opportunity to shop for toys again. My 4yo will remember who gave him a few favorites but honestly, even I have trouble keeping it all straight. We return/donate/give away a good portion of their gifts right off the bat because of the sheer volume.

I have the same problem... except *I* am being piled with as many gifts as the kids, and I can't possibly keep track of all of what they got (often times I'm not even told who it's from or even which child received it), as well as all the things I received myself. It makes me extremely uncomfortable when after the "gift orgy" (which, honestly, is what it feels like), I have no idea who got what, I didn't get to see what anyone else opened, really, because I was piled high with things and also trying to keep track of my children's things, and so on. I just feel like it doesn't give *me* the opportunity to be grateful for the gifts, and makes me feel more like people are just dumping stuff on me.







Did I mention that I'm easily overwhelmed? Add that to the sheer vast numbers of gifts and it's just beyond overwhelming. I mean, seriously, DD's first christmas - back when she was the ONLY grandchild, there were 8 adults plus DD there for christmas and you could BARELY walk around the pile of gifts to sit on the couches in the fairly average sized living room. I mean, I just can't imagine that *anyone* could keep track of all those things coming at them in such a short time.

As I said, it makes me uncomfortable that *I* am not able to be grateful for what I received, let alone keep track of and remind my children what they received from whom. It seriously makes me cry every year - it just feels yucky to me. AND this is only from one branch of the family - my in-laws, then we have two other (generally smaller) christmases to attend, and thus more gifts to dig through, but they're generally more do-able and less of an insane gift-orgy.


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## pantrygirl (Jan 5, 2009)

I don't have answers but you can take what you will from my annual Thanksgiving 'discussion' with my husband's family.
Every Thanksgiving, his father's side of the family sits down to discuss Christmas gifts.
Every year, I leave the table knowing my ideas and the resulting decision will differ.
This year, I tried to make an effort hoping economy, older children, etc would hopefully bring some open minded folks out.
I was wrong.
Ok, I had 3 people, agree with me. That's a step up.

The simple fact is my husband's father's side love to give gifts, ridiculous, frivolous gifts. Who needs a jar full of candy canes? Who needs a 6 foot nutcracker?

Anyway, this year, I suggested that all names be placed in the hat along with their preferred charity and the kris kringle donate $25 to that charity.

Well, I was the scrooge in the discussion and in the end, they put everyone in a hat and suggested we spend $50 for our kris kringle (no gift certificates, please).

I'm just so done with this needless amassing of 'stuff'. When their are folks simply needing coats or clothes for their kids to go in school in, I'm going to be spending a Christmas night surrounded by 30+ folks all exchanging ridiculous gifts.

Now, don't get me wrong, I buy gifts for folks and what not. I love getting gifts but at this point in my life, my gift is my family, the roof over my head and being able to share and spend time with my friends and family. Unfortunately, this can't be wrapped up or sold in mass quantities at 'door busting' prices.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
When we invite classmates to b-day parties, I'd much rather have the kids come without a gift than just not come because they can't bring a gift for whatever reason. Just come and help the birthday kid celebrate the day!

Sure. But when Dylan can't tell me the birthday kid's name or anything about him/her, I took than into consideration when accepting the invitation for him. Now that he's 11 and in 6th grade, he makes the decision. I have found that, in the younger grades, frequently the birthday kid's parents just invited the whole class to the party instead of the few students that their child actually play with. In part, probably, because the friends aren't seen outside of school and the invitations are handed out during school hours or right after school as the kids leave. Dylan didn't do well at those kinds of parties. Way to overwhelming for him so I declined most of those invitations. Unless he really knew the kid beyond that he sat in the same class.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
While I agree that the responsibility for buying or not buying something is our own, I do think marketing to children is pretty close to evil. Marketing is the intentional manipulation of another person by playing to their vulnerabilities, insecurities, and desires in order to get them to do something that benefits the marketer. And children aren't developmentally able to understand and think about these messages the way adults can.

Someone trying to psychologically manipulate my children's emotions, values, identity, and feelings of self worth in order to make money for themselves? Using people (children!) as a means for your own benefit without regard for their well being? Evil.

But why should they? That's the parents job. Parents need to cultivate the art of saying NO and mean it. Turn off the TV, only watch DVDs. Discuss why you aren't going to buy that toy. Discuss how commercials work and the magic of film editing. When shopping examine clothes and how they are made. Talk about the image the clothes (and fashion dolls) are portraying. Instead of arbitrarily banning certain items (thereby making them even more desirable), talk about why your family doesn't have/want them.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 

So really, noone has any thoughts on the Samaritan's purse boxes?

Tjej

I haven't heard of them. We save up change to drop into the Salvation Army's red kettles every year. We buy toys for Toys for Tots campaigns, donate food items into the barrels. Pay for library fines with food stuffs. The weeks between Halloween and Christmas (and beyond) are filled with examples of our family giving as well as dreaming about getting.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
But why should they? That's the parents job. Parents need to cultivate the art of saying NO and mean it. Turn off the TV, only watch DVDs. Discuss why you aren't going to buy that toy. Discuss how commercials work and the magic of film editing. When shopping examine clothes and how they are made. Talk about the image the clothes (and fashion dolls) are portraying. Instead of arbitrarily banning certain items (thereby making them even more desirable), talk about why your family doesn't have/want them.

Um, duh. Any thoughtful parent does that.

The fact that we _can_ cope with aggressive marketing doesn't mean we should _have_ to. And I would recommend you do a little reading about how marketing works. Techniques that play on cognitive and affective biases cannot all be counteracted through discussion.

Also note that different cultures have different views on this. For example, where I live, there are much stricter rules about pharmaceutical marketing, and, as a result, there is less inappropriate use of pharmaceuticals. The typical American, "every family for themselves, and to heck with the societal consequences," approach is not the only way to go, you know. So it isn't unreasonable for people to think about how a different approach to corporate responsibility might be better overall.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
But why should they? That's the parents job. Parents need to cultivate the art of saying NO and mean it. Turn off the TV, only watch DVDs. Discuss why you aren't going to buy that toy. Discuss how commercials work and the magic of film editing. When shopping examine clothes and how they are made. Talk about the image the clothes (and fashion dolls) are portraying. Instead of arbitrarily banning certain items (thereby making them even more desirable), talk about why your family doesn't have/want them.

Well, yeah, of course parents should do that. And they should teach their children how to avoid sexual predators, and how to respond to racism and sexism, and how to react to all the other evils of the world.

That doesn't change the fact that trying to make people feel bad so that they'll do something you want them to is wrong.







Yes, it's my job to do my best to protect my children from people that mean them harm, but that doesn't mean that it's crazy to suggest that people should, you know, not try to manipulate children in ways that are harmful. It's everyone's "job" to be a morally responsible human being.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 

Also note that different cultures have different views on this. For example, where I live, there are much stricter rules about pharmaceutical marketing, and, as a result, there is less inappropriate use of pharmaceuticals. The typical American, "every family for themselves, and to heck with the societal consequences," approach is not the only way to go, you know. So it isn't unreasonable for people to think about how a different approach to corporate responsibility might be better overall.

And that's why voting is important.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
Well, yeah, of course parents should do that. And they should teach their children how to avoid sexual predators, and how to respond to racism and sexism, and how to react to all the other evils of the world.

That doesn't change the fact that trying to make people feel bad so that they'll do something you want them to is wrong.







Yes, it's my job to do my best to protect my children from people that mean them harm, but that doesn't mean that it's crazy to suggest that people should, you know, not try to manipulate children in ways that are harmful. It's everyone's "job" to be a morally responsible human being.

I never said that it wasn't wrong. You can't control or change other people. But you can change how you deal with them. You can remove your family from them. Yes, there will be repercussions and consequences. Only the parents can decide if their decision is worth that. But if they chose to continue the 3 event holiday and their child's meltdowns, then they need to realize that they are responsible for their part in it. In the long run, my child's well-being is more important than the feelings of the extended family.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
And that's why voting is important.

What a strange response. Do you mean to be implying that people should not talk, care or have feelings about this issue, while simultaneously making sure to vote accordingly?

Or are you trying to make some sort of reference to the pathetically low voter turnout in the US?


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
What a strange response. Do you mean to be implying that people should not talk, care or have feelings about this issue, while simultaneously making sure to vote accordingly?

Or are you trying to make some sort of reference to the pathetically low voter turnout in the US?

There are many ways of voting. You (general you) don't like the way companies market their goods, tell them why you aren't buying their products. Vote with your pocket book. Don't watch the channels/shows that carry the commercials. Don't shop at stores that participate in questionable business practices. On the other hand, write to and support companies that do. And, yes, sign petitions and vote at the polls. Write to your government officials and tell them what you want. Tell them what they are doing right as well as what they are doing wrong. It's easy to sit at home and complain about stuff. But that doesn't change anything. Doing something might not change it all at once either. But over time it can if enough people want it.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
But why should they? That's the parents job. Parents need to cultivate the art of saying NO and mean it. Turn off the TV, only watch DVDs. Discuss why you aren't going to buy that toy. Discuss how commercials work and the magic of film editing. When shopping examine clothes and how they are made. Talk about the image the clothes (and fashion dolls) are portraying. Instead of arbitrarily banning certain items (thereby making them even more desirable), talk about why your family doesn't have/want them.

I agree. I often sit here like this:







when I read threads about how [insert external evil atrocity here] is doing irreparable harm. Or could. Or might. As if a toy, or a TV, or a billboard, or a store, would have a greater impact on how my kid turns out than, say, her parents. And her family. And her upbringing. And our family values. That's not to say that some marketing isn't slimy in its approach, I think it can be. But there isn't a doubt in my mind that OUR (my husband and all of our family) will have a greater influence on her and the person she'll grow up to be. Knowing that gives me great comfort when she wants to be brainwashed by the Backyardagains for 30 minutes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
I never said that it wasn't wrong. You can't control or change other people. But you can change how you deal with them. You can remove your family from them. Yes, there will be repercussions and consequences. Only the parents can decide if their decision is worth that. But if they chose to continue the 3 event holiday and their child's meltdowns, then they need to realize that they are responsible for their part in it. In the long run, my child's well-being is more important than the feelings of the extended family.

YES!! A lot of people in this thread are talking about imposing rules, enforcing them, even going to THERAPY over the way their family treats them, then they complain their kid has a meltdown because they GO to these events every year, and that the idea that uh, not going, to a place where you are not respected or even heard in some cases, is completely out of the question.

Self, inflicted.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
There are many ways of voting. You (general you) don't like the way companies market their goods, tell them why you aren't buying their products. Vote with your pocket book. Don't watch the channels/shows that carry the commercials. Don't shop at stores that participate in questionable business practices. On the other hand, write to and support companies that do. And, yes, sign petitions and vote at the polls. Write to your government officials and tell them what you want. Tell them what they are doing right as well as what they are doing wrong. It's easy to sit at home and complain about stuff. But that doesn't change anything. Doing something might not change it all at once either. But over time it can if enough people want it.

You're completely misguided if you think that "sit[ting] at home and complain[ing] about stuff," is all that I (and I am sure others on this thread) do. Please. People usually talk about the things that they care about. They also usually act about the things that they care about. The two go hand in hand.

And heaven forfend that some of us might see the human experience as, you know, a social experience in which people have an impact on each other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree. I often sit here like this:







when I read threads about how [insert external evil atrocity here] is doing irreparable harm. Or could. Or might. As if a toy, or a TV, or a billboard, or a store, would have a greater impact on how my kid turns out than, say, her parents. And her family. And her upbringing. And our family values. That's not to say that some marketing isn't slimy in its approach, I think it can be. But there isn't a doubt in my mind that OUR (my husband and all of our family) will have a greater influence on her and the person she'll grow up to be. Knowing that gives me great comfort when she wants to be brainwashed by the Backyardagains for 30 minutes.

YES!! A lot of people in this thread are talking about imposing rules, enforcing them, even going to THERAPY over the way their family treats them, then they complain their kid has a meltdown because they GO to these events every year, and that the idea that uh, not going, to a place where you are not respected or even heard in some cases, is completely out of the question.

Self, inflicted.

1. Not every family is exactly like yours, not everyone shares your exact priorities, and therefore different techniques are appropriate for different situations. I really don't see what's so difficult to grasp about that concept.

2. I do academic work in a related area and I can tell you that your view of how unimportant marketing is is exactly what marketers prefer that you think. The best marketing plays on all of us in such subtle ways that we barely notice its impact.

3. Some of us care about children in general, not just our own children. If I only cared about my own, I wouldn't give a hoot about television advertising to children at all, since we don't have a tv. However, as I mentioned above, humanity is a social experience, and individual actions and feelings have impacts on other people around us, near and far.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
YES!! A lot of people in this thread are talking about imposing rules, enforcing them, even going to THERAPY over the way their family treats them, then they complain their kid has a meltdown because they GO to these events every year, and that the idea that uh, not going, to a place where you are not respected or even heard in some cases, is completely out of the question.

Self, inflicted.

Since I am the only person who mentioned the word therapy in this thread, I can only assume that you are referring to me.

Your assumption that it was "over the way [my] family treats [me]" is completely incorrect.

Also, if you were actually paying attention, you would also notice that I pointed out that we solved this problem long before we had children.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
1. Not every family is exactly like yours, not everyone shares your exact priorities, and therefore different techniques are appropriate for different situations. I really don't see what's so difficult to grasp about that concept.

2. I do academic work in a related area and I can tell you that your view of how unimportant marketing is is exactly what marketers prefer that you think. The best marketing plays on all of us in such subtle ways that we barely notice its impact.

3. Some of us care about children in general, not just our own children. If I only cared about my own, I wouldn't give a hoot about television advertising to children at all, since we don't have a tv. However, as I mentioned above, humanity is a social experience, and individual actions and feelings have impacts on other people around us, near and far.

1.) I agree.









2.) Well, marketing is pretty unimportant to us because I know the way we live our lives is such that it is not the dominating influence in my kid's life. Not even close. It's called "striking a balance". One can be aware of something without being driven by the fear of it. Or paranoia. Depending on how you look at it.

3.) I also agree.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
2. I do academic work in a related area and I can tell you that your view of how unimportant marketing is is exactly what marketers prefer that you think. The best marketing plays on all of us in such subtle ways that we barely notice its impact.

3. Some of us care about children in general, not just our own children. If I only cared about my own, I wouldn't give a hoot about television advertising to children at all, since we don't have a tv. However, as I mentioned above, humanity is a social experience, and individual actions and feelings have impacts on other people around us, near and far.

I have to agree. There's a great book called "buy-ology" which discusses the lengths to which marketing and advertising go. I highly recommend it to anyone who thinks they're not being affected by marketing. You could be right... but there were some SHOCKING revelations in it, to me, at least.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

There are two separate issues and they get conflated.

One issue is where there is consistent thoughtless giving, but it's on a small scale. In those cases, yes, the recipient's rudeness is not going to fix the giver's thoughtlessness. It's not a big deal unless there are emotional problems at play.

The other issue is where you have an inverted pyramid extended family, with a ton of relatives giving to a small number of children. In this case, the type of gifts doesn't really matter, everyone could switch to giving beautiful fairtrade wood magical perfection, and it would still be just too much stuff. If you didn't have emotional problems already, you're gonna get some dealing with the avalanche.

In the second case, traditional etiquette doesn't work because traditional etiquette comes from a world of material scarcity and unrestrained fertility. Like pi has been saying, your only option may be treating repeat offenders like 3yos. And it sounds like in her case, her relatives were just being clueless. Mine were being kind of malicious. They liked causing me trouble, they thought it was funny. As I've written on another thread on this issue, giftgiving is a perfect vehicle for messing with people, because if you have a problem with it, everyone else is primed to think that the problem is with you.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 

The other issue is where you have an inverted pyramid extended family, with a ton of relatives giving to a small number of children. In this case, the type of gifts doesn't really matter, everyone could switch to giving beautiful fairtrade wood magical perfection, and it would still be just too much stuff. If you didn't have emotional problems already, you're gonna get some dealing with the avalanche.

Yes! That is a great way to put it


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
I never said that it wasn't wrong. You can't control or change other people. But you can change how you deal with them. You can remove your family from them. Yes, there will be repercussions and consequences. Only the parents can decide if their decision is worth that. But if they chose to continue the 3 event holiday and their child's meltdowns, then they need to realize that they are responsible for their part in it.

I will say it for at least the fifth time in this thread.....going to the events or not has zero impact on the volume of gifts. The gifts come to us if we do not go to them. There is no escaping the gifting in my situation.

And before anyone tells me to just get rid of the gifts before my dd sees them, I consider that lying, deceptive, and potentially very harmful to the bonds between my dd and her well-meaning and loving, but clueless relatives. Not to mention, she can READ the packages as well as I can and would know what was going on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
In the long run, my child's well-being is more important than the feelings of the extended family.

This is true for us as well, which is why I am trying to find a way to deal with it. And it has (and will again in the future) include being so "rude" as to try to discuss it with family.


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## Straggletag (Dec 4, 2009)

I haven't finished reading the whole thread, but this struck me:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
a bit OT from this thread (which I find interesting, so thanks for starting it) but I am getting a bit uneasy about giving gifts to young children at all! I mean, now I worry that it will be too plastic-y, too girly, princess-y, not environmentally friendly enough, something they already have, too commercialized/character related, too conforming/encouraging, not imaginative enough, too expensive, too cheap, MIC, and so on....

This is what all the hand wringing over gifts and dismissal of etiquette as a code for organizing behavior has brought us, we can't even give gifts in good conscience!

Fortunately, etiquette has some insight on this, if we haven't completely rejected it out of hand: we have no say in what gifts others get us. No say to demand, refuse (there's an exception here, and that's a snub, only to be inflicted on people you are cutting out of your life), or dictate the sort of gifts. This means that the gifts we receive don't reflect on us. If the gift you receive isn't up to your environmental standards, it still doesn't reflect on you, you didn't buy it, and now the question is simply how you'll dispose of it. If you chuck it, that is your responsibility, and it's wasteful, but donating it and even using it yourself aren't.

At any rate, I find it awfully sad that we're debating a universal human gesture of love, respect, and/or appreciation, and I don't even give many gifts.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Straggletag* 
At any rate, I find it awfully sad that we're debating a universal human gesture of love, respect, and/or appreciation, and I don't even give many gifts.

I think your disconnect here is that you are missing the difference between the ideal ("a universal human gesture of love, respect, and/or appreciation") and reality, which is that gift-giving, in many families and also in many cultures, is a complicated social contract.

If your experience of gifts (giving and receiving) has consistently been string-free, congratulations!! That's truly wonderful for you. Your experience, however, is not representative of everyone's experience.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
There are two separate issues and they get conflated.

One issue is where there is consistent thoughtless giving, but it's on a small scale. In those cases, yes, the recipient's rudeness is not going to fix the giver's thoughtlessness. It's not a big deal unless there are emotional problems at play.

The other issue is where you have an inverted pyramid extended family, with a ton of relatives giving to a small number of children. In this case, the type of gifts doesn't really matter, everyone could switch to giving beautiful fairtrade wood magical perfection, and it would still be just too much stuff. If you didn't have emotional problems already, you're gonna get some dealing with the avalanche.

In the second case, traditional etiquette doesn't work because traditional etiquette comes from a world of material scarcity and unrestrained fertility. Like pi has been saying, your only option may be treating repeat offenders like 3yos. And it sounds like in her case, her relatives were just being clueless. Mine were being kind of malicious. They liked causing me trouble, they thought it was funny. As I've written on another thread on this issue, giftgiving is a perfect vehicle for messing with people, because if you have a problem with it, everyone else is primed to think that the problem is with you.

Exactly.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Maybe we should start a thread for people to tell their horrible excessive giftgiving stories - like mine about having to pay for extra trash collection one year because of the amount of packaging I needed to get rid of, or the year I had the choice between using my chronically ill body to push a cart full of toys to the Goodwill or continuing to trip over them because there simply was no room for them in the apartment.

I think people really need to hear that YES, THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM AND IT IS NOT YOU. And people who don't get it seriously need to just back off. Not everyone has a car to take stuff to Goodwill, or the time in their schedule to do so, or emotionally healthy untraumatized children for whom giving stuff away is a relatively uncomplicated matter, or landlords who don't mind a big pile of uncollected trash sitting in the easement, a culture in which giftgiving works the way it does in Miss Mannersland, etc etc etc.

Yes, our culture is sick. People are addicted to buying stuff. When you interfere with their addiction, their behavior is unpredictable and often extremely negative. This is an addiction that huge parts of our society are based around, so there are really effective social control methods that make trying to deal with this incredibly difficult, especially the awesome ones on display in this thread where someone makes the person who is trying to get sane and healthy look like the crazy one.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

Yooper, thank you for starting and maintaining such an interesting discussion thread. It's a topic I've pondered more over the years, following the births of our daughters. We, too, try to lead a sustainable lifestyle and simplify.

I feel many similar concerns to yours, I've only made it through page 8 at this point so am not going to participate in the conversation as a whole yet but do want to note that, from an anthropological context (my training) - gift giving and gift receiving are activities which are very fundamental to every culture. Which means that delving into these issues (and questioning them) can feel very threatening, thus the many obstacles cultures build around discussions of gifts.

The discussion thus far has been fascinating and thought-provoking, and exemplifies the reason that I spend Too Much Time on MDC!


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

OK, I'm through reading.









Yooper - on a concrete, personal level, I would recommend that you DO figure out who will be most receptive and approachable within your extended family, and begin discussing this and other issues with them. Because this can become bigger than gift-giving, as your dd grows up. The description you share reminds me SO MUCH of a dear friend of dh's and mine from our college years - she is the only grandchild (and great-grandchild, and niece) on both sides of her family. It has had a tremendous effect on her both for good and ill. Among other things, she knows that she is the support system for her aging parents and aunt who are caring for her aging grandmothers; and that she will in turn be THE caregiver for her aging parents and aunt. Her extended family has been a blessing for her; but there is a tremendous burden in it as well. I know that it's impacted her career, where she has chosen to live, and relationships she's had as well.

Helping the extended family learn how to healthily interact with their beloved grandchild/greatniece/etc. will be really important in ensuring that she has a healthy adulthood.

How to accomplish that (because honestly I think that my friend's parents tried!) will be difficult, and I don't know what will work best, but it's important. If you can come up with some lifelong friendship opportunities for her, too, that is good too. I know that our friendship has helped our friend balance some of her responsibilities with her family ....

I know every one of A's relatives love her dearly and want what is the best for her. But they don't all agree on what's best; and they all want their special time with her; and it's difficult for them to recognize the impact (there's so much guilt tied into this at times for her and for them too). When so many adults love one person so much - each one thinks that their one little gift, or one little X or Y, isn't *that* much in the end, but it all adds up.

More later, I have a riot on my end.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Ds just received a party invitation from a classmate that states, "No gifts, please." I'm thrilled to comply.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

My 11 year old girls scout troop really wanted to do a gift exchange this year because it's fun to give and get gifts, yet they decided -- without any adult prompting -- that they all have too much stuff already. Their solution -- again without any adult prompting -- was to exhange something they already own but no longer really use. It had to be nice and it had to be fun, but it had to already be in their room,.

I thought it was great, and the girl scout leader thought it was brilliant, but some of the moms called to complain. They felt it was just too hard. They girls hadn't set a dollar amount. Some of them really couldn't figure out what to let their daughters take, and some didn't want to let their daughters take anything so asked how much they could spend and just get something new "because that's easier."

It was sooooo weird. It seemed like more evidence that our culture is a sick, and that's it's the adults and not the kids who are the problem!


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