# What's Wrong with Strollers?



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm not trying to start trouble or anything, I just honestly want to know why a lot of AP women are against strollers. I consider myself to be a pretty strong AP roll model - I co-sleep, I do child led breastfeeding, I use my sling faithfully but I ALSO use a stroller sometimes. I carry my baby all the time but I also like to take long walks and my back CAN NOT handle a five mile walk with a 30 pound baby. Besides Cam LOVES to ride along in his stroller. He goes vroom vroom and gets upset if I try to take him out.

Hope I don't get flamed too bad... but it's something that's been bothering me and I honestly want to find out people's thoughts on this issue.

Kitty


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I use a stroller to mama, I have a 1 yr old and a 3 yr old. The 3 yr old was slung religiously until I was about 8 months pregnant and incapable. She still gets slung around the house when she wants to. My 1 yr old loves the sling, but more often has wanted down to keep up with the big sister. She will sling when big sister is walking, but when sister is in the stroller, that is where she wants to be to.

I think the idea is when people use the sling as default and spend hours pushing around the mall (or wherever) while babies are fed, diapered, and left ot fall asleep there. When the stroller becomes the babies "spot" and carrying or holding isn't an option. There are many people who do just that- but there are also many of us who use it as a tool when the child wants to sit in it.


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## MiaPia (Aug 28, 2003)

Well, I'm a stroller lover! With my DS we tried slinging the first few months of his life, but he HATED it. No matter which position or what sling he just hated it. He would tolerate a Baby Bjorn, but not for long amounts of time. However, he was happy in his stroller ususally.
With my DD we sling most of the time, but if we're going on a long walk she goes in the stroller. She also sits in the stroller (and seems to enjoy it!) when I'm outside doing some yard work. I sit her right near to where I'm working and talk to her the whole time - or else she is entertained by her brother.
I also use the stroller when I'm out with both kids - DD gets slung and DS goes in the stroller.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

Yeah, I too use a stroller and the real issue is peopel who "abuse" them. They keep the child restrained and rarely hold them,etc. Heck, DS hates to be held close most of the time and often refuses to hold hands. HE has wiggled out of my hand and ran into the street more thanonce. But ifI geth iminthestroller he generally relaxes and watches the world go by. So for us it is agreat help.

Yet as mentioned in the Kenya thread, I can see why cultures who have never used them would reject them...


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## AutumnSunshine (Jan 31, 2004)

I haven't been able to figure out why so many people seem to believe that there is an AP thing against strollers. Somebody told me that Granju's AP book is vehemently anti-stroller. I went back through it and it's NOT.

I think the thing against strollers is (or should be) mainly for small babies. I'm sure we've all seen the "container babies" who are basically never held but always in some kind of baby container, whether a stroller, carseat, swing, bouncing chair, playpen, etc.

It is nearly impossible to do some things without a stroller-- like the things you mentioned, or a day at an amusement park, or a trip on an airplane that involves also dragging a carry-on bag and changing planes multiple times.

I also can't carry my baby while digging in my garden or holding a hot pot of food with two hands or when I'm bending over the bathtub trying to wash my other kids. I use a bouncing chair for that, although I don't use the bouncing thing I just let her sit in it so she can see me and I can talk to her.

I also can't carry her when I eat in a restaurant and she keeps knocking my plate off the table. That's the one time I actually use the carseat out of the car, I take it in the restaurant and put it on the special holder so that she has her own "chair".

And guess what, like you said kids like riding in a stroller after a certain age. But even babies sometimes don't really like being bound up in the sling. Some do, some don't and even those that do have their moments when they prefer to be able to be free to kick their legs and move around. I know some of the AP literature can glorify societies where babies aren't put down at all until they're 6 months old or something like that, but none of my 3 girls would have tolerated that, in fact it would have been very un-AP of me to confine them like that because they didn't like it. They like to have floor time (or, in my case since I have an active and somewhat aggressive 2-year-old to protect the baby from this is occasionally playpen time--gasp!) to be free to stretch and kick and move.

Still, I was just wondering the other day how people who put their babies in containers all day get along without a sling. It just makes no sense to me because after a while they get mad in the containers. If my baby isn't happy in the bouncing chair watching me, I do what I need to do quickly with the hot pot or whatever it is, and then I carry her in the sling. She'd be a wreck all the time if I didn't carry her!

I found this great article at the kellymom site recently that addresses this subject:

There is No Doctrine for Attachment Parenting:
Being AP is a Frame of Mind!
http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/ap-frame-of-mind.html


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

I have nothing against strollers. I don't really use one. I also don't use a sling. I guess I am what I would call a 'baby holder'. I carry him everywhere!
There have been times when I have seen a baby who is unhappy in their stroller, and the parents just don't care. This is where I think it's not very 'AP' to use a stoller. As long as your kid is happy in the stoller, no problem!


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

we have a stroller that k will sometimes tolerate. she's high-needs and doesn't like to be put down for too long a stretch.
she's also about 18 lbs at 5 months, so the sling gets tiring after awhile.
i agree the issue is people using them in leiu of paying attention to their baby. i was out with my mom recently and i had k in the sling. we passed some moms sitting outside a coffee shop and they had a babe in a stroller which was turned away from them and none of them were interacting in any way with him. i felt so bad for him.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

I use a stroller too. I don't think there's anything wrong with using a stroller, especially when dc enjoys it.

I think stroller "overuse" is expemplified by what I saw two days ago. Dd and I were going out for a walk, both on foot. (She is 16 months old) It takes us about an hour to get around the block, because she stops and looks at everything and explores.

Neighbors with 22 month old were leaving their house at the same time to go for a walk. They forced their dd into a stroller, and she cried and cried. She watned to walk too! But, alas, they took off at their quicker grown up pace and she was whining in her stroller.....


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Strollers certainly have their place! I just hate seeing kids in the stroller with a bottle in one hand, paci in the other and the parents totally ignoring them. I'm a firm believer that when you feed a baby, you should cuddle them. I fed my twins by bottle and I held them each and every time...


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Keep it coming - you guys are making me feel soooo much better! Phew. I was beginning to get a stroller complex, I really thought I was missing something because I'd see some nasty comments about the use of strollers on different AP boards and I always thought "Jeez, seems like they have their place as long as they aren't abused." KWIM?

Not that I really care what other people think but I was super curious as to whether there was some really bad stroller related things I was missing and I wanted to be informed!

Kitty


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I am another stroller lover. My kids loved them.

When they cried, they got picked up. No biggie. Made my life easier....to go shopping, for long walks, to go to the pool. At the very least, when i would christmas shop and my child would fuss, it could hold all the gifts while i held my baby!








Lisa


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I also use a stroller. My baby weighed 20lbs at 4 months old and I had a 21 month old. There is just no way I could carry around that much weight with huge breasts too. My back was hurting bad enough.
I do not see why so many "ap" or natural mommas are against strollers either.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

My DS didn't like the stroller much when he was a baby. We'd get so annoyed because, whenever we went out with my parents, my mom would whine "Where's his stroller?" We didn't take it many places because he'd sit in it for five minutes, then I'd end up carrying him while rolling the stroller.

Now, at 2 1/2 he likes it! The only time we really use it though is the zoo.

Most of the AP moms I know use strollers.

I do think a sling is better because you're holding the baby close and snuggling them. But there are times that a stroller is better...like, as someone said, for long walks.

Dina


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## [email protected] (Jan 5, 2002)

i dont think a stroller itself is bad - its a tool, its how its used

some folks throw their kids in there and thats it; they sit isolated and they dont interact w/them

i myself found that when dd was in the stroller for a long time, i felt separated from her (i dont mean on a daily basis, i mean if we went to something unsual like an art show in a park or such)

honestly there were a number of times i carried dd and used the stroller for our stuff


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

When we pull into the farmers market or the mall dd2 freaks out and starts screaming (in a good way) "MY STROLLER, MY STROLLER!!!!!!!!!" She loves it. Probably because since she has been able to walk, I let her walk if she wants too, but mostly she rides in style, like the princess she is!!!!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

It only bothers me when people don't interact. I am usually talking non stop with Goo when we walk. It doesn't matter if she is in the strolller or walking with me. We just talk all of the time...


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

We love strollers for long distances or unsafe walking. But, I'll always use a backpack when out near woods as I feel it gives more safety; ie. we've been charged by a moose before and I honestly feel ds would have been endangered strapped in a stroller. And, last week, we ran into a bear and again, I feel like the stroller could've been tragic.
Otherwise, they're great! IMHO


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Another stroller owner here. DD loves sitting in it when we take long walks and it comes in handy when she needs to 'put out of commision' for 2 mins while I handle something dangerous, for instance.
They can definitely be abused though. Our nephew (7 months) is hardly ever taken out of his, the poor child is strapped into it for the better part of the day and it is starting to show on his motoric development.







His parents are convinced that they are doing the right thing and that we are spoiling Marina rotten, of course.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Without having read any other replies: Nothing. They are very useful at times, though of course should not be used as an excuse to never hold your baby. Mothers of multiple children often really really need them







. It would be silly to assume, if anyone here has, that a mother is not attached properly or not loving because she uses one (i say that because i have seen this rather icky critical attitude displayed here and elsewhere a number of times, and i don't like it







).


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

I, too, think strollers have their place. We had two of them and they were wonderful when our little guy got tired or when we needed a place to store stuff while walking somewhere.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

oh, just wanted to add: when we took an international trip last summer (dd was about ten months at the time) the stroller would have been an awful encumbrance (plus i seriously doubt she would have stayed in it then). The damn carseat was bad enough. Anyway, i had a marvelous hip carrying device (clips to the body with strong straps, cushy shoulder padding); i had borrowed it from a friend, and almost kissed her on teh lips when i got home, it was just that useful. DD slept in it, and my hands were free to help with baggage; i felt safer and better with her right up next to me. Jus lovely.


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## Throkmorton (Jun 30, 2003)

I use my stroller every day. DS and I walk everywhere, and it is the only way to get further than the front porch with him. I feel so mean when I can't carry him once he gets tired, so I bring along the stroller, which he loves. I used a sling until he was 4 months old, 20 lbs and I couldn't possibly pack him any more. Too hard on my back.
GoodWillHunter, you would have been horrified to have seen us in the mall yesterday. Me pushing a stroller, 2 year old DS with a cheeseburger in one hand, paci in the other... Ok, it was a veggie burger, and the paci is only for when he is about to have a nap. Part way through the time in the mall, I realized how bad that must look.
In other words, i see nothing wrong with strollers. We walk about 5 miles a day with one.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Stroller mama here too! We have a Jeep Liberty stroller and we LOVE it! I do have a sling and I never use it- maybe a handful of times in over a year! It hurts my back and she likes the stroller better- I do understand all the AP attachment to a sling but I have not found the perfect sling- I do want a euro carrier but DP says it looks like the baby cant see anything- and I also think it is like 90 bucks and I can buy at least 6 dipes for that! lol..... We do have a back pack we take everplace and use it a lot. I think that AP is a lot of stuff- I have a friend who didnt nurse her baby full time (due to lots of latching reasons) but she is very very big into AP and is studding to be a midwife- so I think AP is a mix of things!


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues...


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

We've used all manner of baby/toddler moving devices in our house: ring sling, Bjorn, wrap sling, backpack, umbrella stroller, jogging stroller, even (gasp) the removable infant carseat...different situations call for different tools. I know there is alot of derogatory talk about "bucket babies" around here, but when dd was an infant you could not have paid me enough to try to transfer her from carseat to sling when she was sleeping.

And Mocha, that could have been me you saw putting a screaming toddler into a stroller.







Dd gets to walk alot, but sometimes we actually have to get somewhere at a reasonable pace. Dd occasionally is unhappy to get in the stroller, but always happy once we get moving (just like with the sling when she was a babe).

Loved that Kellymom article!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

When dk#1 was little, we didn't have a car I could drive, so I bussed a lot with him -- sling was easier, and I felt it was safer. When dk#2 was born, ds#1 was 2. I had an umbrella stroller I used for dk#1 occasionally then if we were going for a long walk (he would walk on his own on the bus, I would just carry them both if it was an awkward place). I slung dk#2 while pushing dk#1. I've found personally a wagon to be a better investment for us -- it's tough enough that the kids can play with it, it's easy to clean, they can both still fit in it for a long trip, I can use it on rougher terrain, and I can use it to carry other things. I think it has a weight tolerance of 150 lbs. About the only time when I would really want a bigger stroller would be at the mall, and they are free to borrow there. That's just what has worked out for us. The wagon does make a fair amount of noise if we're pulling it empty on the sidewalk, and it gets hot in the sun (it's metal). Lining it with a blanket helps.


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## AutumnSunshine (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
It only bothers me when people don't interact. I am usually talking non stop with Goo when we walk. It doesn't matter if she is in the strolller or walking with me. We just talk all of the time...

Is it my imagination or do people really look at me like I'm crazy when I have my baby in the sling and I am talking away to her? Maybe most people don't talk to their babies?

Umm Zaynab


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"It is nearly impossible to do some things without a stroller-- like the things you mentioned, or a day at an amusement park, or a trip on an airplane that involves also dragging a carry-on bag and changing planes multiple times."

That is ridiculous! At the amusement park you can wear an Ergo or wrap carrier. On an airplane I honestly do not understand how you think using a stroller in an airport is EASIER than a carrier. Personally I don't like having to lug around a huge stroller when I could just put my baby on my back. Another example i live in the Maple capital of Ontario and there was a huge maple festival a couple of weeks ago. We were there for hours with Olivia either on my back or front in the Mei Tai. She was right up there with me, experiencing everything and involved in the conversation. Plus it was REALLY crowded and I was able to walk freely, not having to worry about guiding a stroller through the crowds of people. Everyone else was lugging around strollers and their child was totally out of all the excitement, just riding around staring at people's kneecaps.

My opinion on strollers is I feel that in most circumstances they are not needed. I really can't stand being in a mall and seeing a child in a stroller with a blank look on their face. And I watch for awhile and people don't normally talk very much to their child when they are in a stroller. IMO it keeps the child out of the line of conversation and real interaction with the world. And I can not tell you how much I HATE those bucket baby carriers. They weigh like what, 10-15 lbs? You can't pick them up and carry them? They are only little for such a short time, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to take advantage of it and hold them as much as you can. I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I am just being honest. Everyone seems to be in support of strollers so I wanted to present the other side.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
That is ridiculous! ... My opinion on strollers is I feel that in most circumstances they are not needed....

OK, so you have an opinion on this. But do you really need to call everyone who doesn't agree with you "ridiculous"? Maybe for you they aren't needed. But for some of us they are, for lots of reasons, most of them reasonably explained here. It's OK to disagree, but please watch the name calling and judgement. Would you say this to your child?


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I'm not ridiculous either. And you do have a right to your opinion.

I am so glad i changed my sig a few weeks ago


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## AutumnSunshine (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
That is ridiculous! At the amusement park you can wear an Ergo or wrap carrier. On an airplane I honestly do not understand how you think using a stroller in an airport is EASIER than a carrier. Personally I don't like having to lug around a huge stroller when I could just put my baby on my back. Another example i live in the Maple capital of Ontario and there was a huge maple festival a couple of weeks ago. We were there for hours with Olivia either on my back or front in the Mei Tai. She was right up there with me, experiencing everything and involved in the conversation. Plus it was REALLY crowded and I was able to walk freely, not having to worry about guiding a stroller through the crowds of people. Everyone else was lugging around strollers and their child was totally out of all the excitement, just riding around staring at people's kneecaps.

Well, people CAN do anything they want if their ability allows.

I think you should be aware of those of us who have more than one child, have to spend all day with a baby in the sling on one side, the diaper bag on the other side, and have to also hold a 4 year old and 2 year old's hands, bend down to do things for them, possibly pick them up to show them things (like in teh National Zoo where NOTHING is eye-level appropriate for children), carry food or shopping... how on earth do you do it all? At least the stroller can be there to carry the STUFF for a while while baby is in the sling, and then if necessity dictates I can put somebody in a stroller as a seat, for a diaper change (please don't tell me to use the filthy bathroom changing tables), etc.

The carseat/bucket things make less sense to me because, like you said, they weigh a TON. Restaurants (which I almost never go to anyway) are the only time I even use the thing outside of the car, unless we have just come home from someplace and the baby fell asleep in the carseat, if I don't want to wake her up with the transition to bed, I carry the seat inside. Some people have babies who scream and cry a lot so I can understand not wanting to wake them up when they get to, say, the grocery store, and putting them on the shopping cart. My baby is very easy-going and will fall right back to sleep easily in the sling so I sling her in the grocery store, but if I were to take her out of the seat and then transfer to the cold surface of the bed she might not be so happy.

As for airports, I don't get what people are saying when they say they have to "carry" a stroller through an airport. If I'm not going to actually use it in the airport I check it with my luggage. Why would anyone have to carry it, I don't get it? All you have to do is roll it right to the door of the plane, where the flight attendants fold it up and take it fold it up and put it in the luggage compartment and then when I get off it's there again for me at the door of the plane. The only pain is having to take everythign out of it and folding it up to go through security, I wish it would be enough to just roll it through the metal detector but they want it on the conveyor belt in the X-ray thing. But actually they make me take the baby out of the sling then too and make me put the sling on the X-ray and if I'm carrying a child who can walk (no matter how young) they make me put her down and force her to walk through by herself. (Or is this all just because I'm Muslim and they think I've got a bomb strapped to me instead of a baby?)

But again, even if traveling with my husband (although I have also traveled with 2, and pregnant, alone several times... never again!) we have to deal with at least 2 carryons in addition to having to do hand-holding, ticket balancing, and speed-racing from one gate to the exit. Oh God, and when we fly internationally I can't imagine... a full 24-hour trip usually... I always take my babies as lap infants because we just can't afford a seat for them, but having any place to put them down for a bit while they're sleeping is SUCH a relief on the back, neck, and arms when you have to try to sleep through a 10-hour flight or a 7-hour layover in Amsterdam.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but I think you need to distinguish between the people who overuse and abuse the stroller and indeed DON'T interact with their children at all, ever, and those who make judicious use of it. I do love that the slings keep my kids at eye-level so that they can be talked to and interact like regular people, not talked "at" as somebody peers into the stroller and baby-talks a few dumb sentences to them.

Again, it's dangerous to assume things about people you don't know and of whose circumstances you are unaware. A blank-faced kiddo in a stroller may also just be tired. I have a baby already in sling and my 2 yo gets tired and can't walk in a straight line so I put her in the stroller where she zones out while I get to where I need to be without her walking into walls (literally).

Umm Zaynab


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

" I really can't stand being in a mall and seeing a child in a stroller with a blank look on their face. And I watch for awhile and people don't normally talk very much to their child when they are in a stroller. IMO it keeps the child out of the line of conversation and real interaction with the world."

You're right. I probably do talk to dd less when she is in a stroller. In our case, at least, I don't think this is a bad thing. Dd and I are both talkers. We never shut up. It's a relief for me, and I suspect for her too, to just be quiet sometimes and let the world roll by.

Do I advocate this as a way of life? Of course not. But please don't judge people when you don't know the specifics of their situation.

If you don't like strollers, don't use them. Same goes for slings.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Its so nice when people cut and paste different parts of posts to make their point. I SAID that it is ridiculous to say that it is nearly impossible to do some things without a stroller. That was what was I was saying was ridiculous and I stand behind it. IMO it IS ridiculous to say that it is impossible to go to an amusement park or an airport without a stroller.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellie'sMom*
" You're right. I probably do talk to dd less when she is in a stroller. In our case, at least, I don't think this is a bad thing. Dd and I are both talkers. We never shut up. It's a relief for me, and I suspect for her too, to just be quiet sometimes and let the world roll by.

Sorry I just had to comment that what you said here goes oh so well with the "blah blah blah" smiley in your sig! Hehehehe. So cute!


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Heavenly - next time we go to the zoo, you can sling or carry my 45 lb 2 yo all day.

You have no idea how much it breaks my heart that I cannot carry her as much as she wants. Do you know how it feels to tell her that I cannot carry her all the time? Should I just not take her places like the zoo because I have to use a stroller due to her size when she doesn't want to walk anymore? I would much rather take her and have the stroller available as an OPTION.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmZaynab*
But actually they make me take the baby out of the sling then too and make me put the sling on the X-ray and if I'm carrying a child who can walk (no matter how young) they make me put her down and force her to walk through by herself. (Or is this all just because I'm Muslim and they think I've got a bomb strapped to me instead of a baby?)

Nah, I've had to do this too. Ever had to do this alone? Here's my 2 yr. old and my 4 yr. old on the other side of the metal detector, calmly waiting for mama (the guards weren't even paying attention to them - at all!) - and the #@$(*#$(*& thing malfunctions and they keep holding me up - I swear if my kids had started to walk away I wouldn't care about the stupid guard, I'd be through the checkpoint in a second. The metal detectors are set so sensitive in the Honolulu International Airport, that if there is a breeze through the (open air) airport, they go off! And I don't know about your stroller, but mine has metal in it so it wouldn't work to send it through the detector. A friend of mine has a 13yo with cerebral palsy who is totally wheelchair bound, you should see the trouble he has to go through at the airport (we've travelled together before).

Sometimes my kids would be in the stroller (we don't need one anymore, don't get me going on 4yo+ kids in strollers at the mall) and looking kind of spazzy - sometimes there are things I need to get done and yes, I do opt for the convenience of my kids spazzing in the stroller for half an hour while I get something done. It is dangerous to assume that the person you see doing this has been doing it for hours, or does it every day, or every week for that matter.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmZaynab*
possibly pick them up to show them things (like in teh National Zoo where NOTHING is eye-level appropriate for children),









T I don't do zoos much, but I have noticed this. We were at a local little amusement park the other day, and they have some harbour seals there. I was so happy to see that the enclosure walls were glass *to the ground.* I didn't have to pick the kids up one at a time, propped on my preggo belly, so they could see the animals! For places where glass wasn't feasible, they had the actual fence, then a gap, then a nice big wooden post fence that was super easy for the kids to climb, and the animal areas were all a bit higher on a slope than the walkway, so it was easy to see them.


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## curlygrrl (Jan 22, 2004)

I agree, I don't think there's a problem with strollers so much as "container babies." DH goes to the park every day and sees mothers who leave their babies in strollers for hours with no interaction, even gives them a bottle in there. And my MIL who works in Wal-Mart says she sees babies pushed around in carriers for HOURS on end while their mother shops, basically ignoring them.

It seems like it's becoming a cultural thing to avoid holding and interacting with your baby and unfortuately, strollers can be mis-used in this way. But in my life they definately have their place.

Tamara


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, other than a couple of reactive posts that seem to have died down now...I really hope this thread puts to rest the MYTH that you can't be AP and use a stroller. I honestly don't know where stuff like this comes from.

The only issue I have with strollers is that so many parents don't realize that there are other ways to transport a baby. And I feel bad for them, as in they don't know what they are missing. I don't think they are crappy parents.

Frankly, slinging a baby is just so much more interactive. While we did get a stroller when DD was 8 months old, and we still use it at the zoo, long walks, etc...I find it odd to have her facing away from me. And when the sunhood is up (necessary in summertime) I can only see her through the little window in the back of the hood. I really DO feel that I can't interact with her, and I miss how we used to be able to do that when I was slinging her. Mostly we walk together, which is lovely. But when I see mamas with tiny babies in strollers, I often wonder if they have any idea what a pleasure it can be to sling a baby. I hate it when I see newborns in those combo things that are carseat and stroller together with the two sunshades that meet in the middle so basically the baby sees NOTHING and nobody sees it, either. I'm sure they have their reasons, and I don't need to hear long posts about all the possible reasons why. It just makes me sad, that's all.

And I do think strollers are usually a pain in the butt - always have to search for the elevators instead of taking the stairs. Difficulty navigating narrow store aisles, etc. Still, I'm just not up to slinging my 2 year old much, especially now that I'm pregnant. And she really does love her stroller. She gets very protective of it.


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

My ds1 and dd spent a lot of time in the double side-by-side stroller, until the front wheels fell off (on a scorching hot day, when I was 6 months pregnant with #3 and far from home







). That was when they were almost 3 and 5 years old. People often said that my 4yo was too old to be in the stroller, but that was our form of transportation. WE don't have a car and the kids couldn't walk all the way across town at that age, and we did/still do a lot of walking across town to get groceries or go to the library or park or wherever. It just made me angry that people would make comments to my son about him being too big to be in a stroller. How else were we supposed to get around, do our shopping etc? WE did do slinging with them as well, but it wasn't always practical.

Now ds is 5 and he walks, dd is 3 and she goes in the stroller if we are going long distances, and ds2 is in the sling.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Foobar, people used to look at me like I was crazy when I talked to DD in her stroller, too. Maybe because she was facing away from me and I was looking like I was talking to nobody? I don't know! Maybe because people didn't think that it was "normal" to carry on a conversation with a baby?









I also did not know about good baby slings when Dd was a baby. The only one I tried was the "mainstream" Nojo one, and it was too big for me and I never got the hang of it. I couldn't afford a Bjorn, so I gave up on carriers.









Just like every other piece of baby equipment out there, a stroller is a useful item that shouldn't be abused. A mom who is going to ignore her baby for long stretches is not doing it because she has a stroller or a bouncy seat or a playpen. She would do it anyway, so at least the equipment keeps the kid safe.









Oh, and don't be so quick to judge a mom with a crying baby in a stroller. There were a few times when DD and I were out and she was tired, and I was trying to get her out to the car as quickly as possible so I could get her home. Carrying a flailing toddler in one arm while pushing a stroller full of packages is no easy feat, so even though it looked bad to others, plopping her in there and beelining it to the nearest exit was the best course of action.


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

we use our stroller as one of many things in our repetriore to keep our high need DD happy. if my dh were physically capable (he has MS) he would carry her all day long. but he has horrible back pain and needs a break. (he is a sahd.) for awhile the only way she would nap (we tried the sling) was if we took her for a walk in it around our neighborhood for an hour.

i would never get to jog if it weren't for my jogging stroller, my dd loves how fast we go and when that time of day comes around and we take her out to be strapped in, she giggles and babbles. i really cannot talk to her while we're running, but she really doesn't care. and i think it gives her a break from the stimulation she gets all day being with me or her dad.

i agree with everyone who said that they have a place, but should not be overused.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

For us, there was never really a choice of stroller or sling. DS was very vocal about which one he wanted. For the first year, he usually preferred the sling over the stroller. Now he's 2 1/2...he refuses to use the sling, likes to be carried, sometimes walks, and for long walks likes to go in the stroller.

My child zoned out in the sling. And he zones out in the stroller. When he's done zoning, he jumps out of the stroller and is ready to walk....

I think it's bad to judge parents you don't know on how they transport their kid. But I must admit I do stereotype. I think of AP stroller-parents as having cheap carefree umbrella strollers. I think of mainstream parents as having those huge strollers (usually double) with fifty compartments, laying-down capabilities, cup holders, diaper bag holders, etc. Of course, I was thinking that this morning and at the museum, my AP friend and her sister were there. Her sister's AP and had the big huge stroller. So my stereotype is probably not based on fact or reality.

Dina


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I think of AP stroller-parents as having cheap carefree umbrella strollers. I think of mainstream parents as having those huge strollers (usually double) with fifty compartments, laying-down capabilities, cup holders, diaper bag holders, etc. Of course, I was thinking that this morning and at the museum, my AP friend and her sister were there. Her sister's AP and had the big huge stroller. So my stereotype is probably not based on fact or reality.

well, i could agree with that, except that you can't use an umbrella stroller until they have really good neck control. we have one that we got as a shower gift and my 6 mo dd _still_ isn't strong enough to use it... so its the big, cumbersome graco for us!


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

Ya know, I really wish I could sling ds everywhere. I really do. The freakin' jogging stroller (only one big enough to suit his needs) is heavy, hard to steer, and taking up a crapload of room in my car.

BUT, first off, he weighs over 35 lbs, too big for most slings. Secondly, my back goes out if I blink wrong. I guess dh could sling him......except last time we tried to put him in the sling, he just plain wasn't having it, and flipped himself out of it. Thank goodness we were at home standing next to the couch! And here's the biggie........Aidan has autism, along with which comes major problems processing sensory input. A large, confining stroller helps block some of that out. If it didn't, he'd either be in full out meltdown, or nearly comatose from trying to shut everything out. So, he walks for awhile, then gets in the stroller for a while, to calm down.

I'm doing what is best for MY child. And isn't that what AP IS???? Treating each child as an individual, and meeting THEIR needs, not the one size fits all, cookie cutter model of parenting that says EVERY child needs XYZ.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

Stroller here. My ds weighted 30lbs at 4months and I have a terrible back. Besides, he loves his stroller. He sticks both his legs up and plays with his feet the whole time


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## Throkmorton (Jun 30, 2003)

My strollers are all gigantic behemoths. I have a jogging stroller, 2 "all terrain" 4 wheeled strollers with a million compartments and I just gave away my carriage.
I hate umbrella strollers. Setting the 35 lb weight limit aside, they are impossible to push, uncomfortable for my ds and flimsy as all get out. I love my jogger for walks any farther than the store. My son isn't autistic, but he does need a place to mellow out when we are out. The jogger works well for that and if he falls asleep, I can recline it.
Oh, and DS is 40 lbs, and recently turned 2. Carrying him is pretty much impossible.

Steph


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Well, other than a couple of reactive posts that seem to have died down now...I really hope this thread puts to rest the MYTH that you can't be AP and use a stroller. I honestly don't know where stuff like this comes from.

The only issue I have with strollers is that so many parents don't realize that there are other ways to transport a baby. And I feel bad for them, as in they don't know what they are missing. I don't think they are crappy parents.

Frankly, slinging a baby is just so much more interactive. While we did get a stroller when DD was 8 months old, and we still use it at the zoo, long walks, etc...I find it odd to have her facing away from me. And when the sunhood is up (necessary in summertime) I can only see her through the little window in the back of the hood. I really DO feel that I can't interact with her, and I miss how we used to be able to do that when I was slinging her. Mostly we walk together, which is lovely. But when I see mamas with tiny babies in strollers, I often wonder if they have any idea what a pleasure it can be to sling a baby. I hate it when I see newborns in those combo things that are carseat and stroller together with the two sunshades that meet in the middle so basically the baby sees NOTHING and nobody sees it, either. I'm sure they have their reasons, and I don't need to hear long posts about all the possible reasons why. It just makes me sad, that's all.

And I do think strollers are usually a pain in the butt - always have to search for the elevators instead of taking the stairs. Difficulty navigating narrow store aisles, etc. Still, I'm just not up to slinging my 2 year old much, especially now that I'm pregnant. And she really does love her stroller. She gets very protective of it.



















the park i live by is frequented by "yuppie" mothers. i put k in her sling and take her for walks around the lake; on one side is the playground, where there always seem to be 3 million children. and there are TONS of strollers, many with the bucket clipped in and the sunguards completely over them. it seems sad to me, too, to know there is a babe in there who is completely cut off from interacting with the world. k wouldn't have it, i know.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I felt very fortunate that ds was so light for so long. When he turned 1yo, he just weighed 18lbs. So I was able to carry/bjorn/sling him for a long time (he didn't always love the sling though). Now at 3yo he is just getting too heavy for me to carry him for long (plus I'm 7months pregnant), but he can walk a lot more now. So although we have definitely used strollers, I've been lucky enough to not have to rely on them all that much.

I have a friend who had her baby at the same time I had ds, and she was the most dedicated AP person I know (she is actually the one that introduced me to AP as an official thing!). She was adamant about slinging 100% of the time. Her daughter was sooooo heavy, and still she would sling her everywhere. Finally by 6 months old (her dd was 25lbs +), she gave up and started using a stroller here and there. It was really hard for her, I know, because she was so against them the whole time. But the sling was just too hard on her a lot of the time.

Quote:

many with the bucket clipped in and the sunguards completely over them. it seems sad to me, too, to know there is a babe in there who is completely cut off from interacting with the world.
I have definitely used the carseat carrier/stroller combo, but I never understood the whole thing about completely covering the kid. For a long time I just assumed that it was because they were asleep and mom wanted to protect them from sun/wind/noise or whatever. But then most times when I peeked in, the baby was awake! I found it rather shocking.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

so sad, the little baby being all cut off from the world. that makes me mad to see that, b/c unless the baby is in direct sunlight, or snow or rain or wind, that lid ought to be open so they can see their world.
i wanted to comment on people looking at me funny *not something that is new to me, btw, lol* when i talk to dd...i've carried/slung her from birth to about 12 months everywhere i went, from 12 months on, she's wanted to walk. anyway, i always get strange looks when i speak to her (always have)-i talk to her very kindly, respectfully, and articulately, as though she understands me. she does. it's sucky people don't talk to their babies. i'm getting some sweet vindication now that she's verbal. it's always priceless, to see the looks on those people's faces change to awe when she talks back, like today in the craft store, "maya, honey, mama really wants for you to walk where I can see you. I respect your freedom, and that you really want to run and look around, but I need you to be where I can see you, ok?"
"ok mama." (she stayed closer to me, and the remainder of the time we were there, would look over her shoulder to make sure she could see me)
"would you like to push the cart?"
"maya pusha cart, mmmhmm! push it dood. push to da animals. maya hold two animals. pet them. riiiiiiiiiiiiight there."
"yes, lovey, you can push that cart great, and we can go see the animals and hold them and pet them."
i know. it's cheap. i am such a butthead for gloating at the looks she garners. i'm just so proud, and i'm happy that she shocks people into being nice instead of looking at me like i have 2 heads. i know that the way i (and dh) have raised her, talking to her, including her in the world, talking about what we see, how things work, that's helped to make her the bright, talkative, inquisitive, lovey,funny little person she is now.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

The thing where they don't know any other way really gets me. I was on the bus the other day, and there was this young couple (by which I mean they were somewhere between 16 and 25, younger than me anyway) with a baby who was maybe 2 months old at most. The man had the stroller part of the "travel system" in front of him, folded up as is required for bringing it on the bus. They had the baby in the bucket between them, and the woman was feeding her a bottle while she was in the bucket.

I sat across from them nursing my DD in her Kozy, thinking they were nuts for carrying all that stuff for a baby that couldn't way much more than 10 lbs., and also wishing I had the guts to suggest the woman actually hold her child while feeding her.

I carry a small diaper bag and my DD, and sometimes a bookbag when we're heading to the library. I bring the bucket along, carried empty, when there's a chance we'll be able to get a ride home from a friend from wherever it is we're going.

I don't have enough hands to carry a diaper bag, a folded up stroller, a baby, and a carseat. And having to take everything, including baby, out of the stroller and fold it up to get on the bus... I see people struggle with this frequently, and feel bad for them.

I do use my stroller when we walk to the grocery store, which is about a mile and a half walk each way. DD rides in the stroller (something of a novelty for her still, and today she made it all the way there w/out complaint and shifting to carrier for the first time) on the way there as long as she's happy, then I wear her and the groceries ride in the stroller on the way home.

She weighs about 16 lbs. now, and by the end of the day when we're out on the bus I do get tired, but with the heat here I'd get tired if I was empty-handed. I have to use a wrist brace if I push the stroller for more than a few minutes, and I can't carry DD w/ out a sling for more than a couple of minutes because of my wrists.

I think strollers definitely have their place. Especially for moms with more than one little one. In the airport it's nice to have a luggage cart for carry-ons you can take through the security checkpoint. That said, as I only have the one baby I'm going to leave my stroller at home on my next plane trip. I'm also not going to overpack like I did the first time I flew with her, so it won't be overwhelming.

And I don't go anywhere near most public restroom changing tables. A folding plastic mat on the floor in the corner, on a park bench, etc., does the trick. I also use the plastic mat when we DO use the public restroom changing tables, except at the library where they actually provide liners.

And the bs about the security checkpoints goes for everyone. You're not being singled out in your hijab. It's a good thing I had the stroller along the first time I flew w/ DD as she couldn't sit up yet and they made me put her down so they could run the wand over me.

I took off my shoes at the security checkpoint then didn't put them on again until it was time to board the plane--and then only because someone in a uniform told me I had to.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Well, other than a couple of reactive posts that seem to have died down now...I really hope this thread puts to rest the MYTH that you can't be AP and use a stroller. I honestly don't know where stuff like this comes from.

From people who make it a point to say that they don't use a stroller when they are giving the laundry list of AP things they do.







I've heard it a number of times through the years.

The big thing for me about having a stroller is now I have this huge piece of junk I will have to get rid of some day. Well, actually, I have 3 strollers, but two of them I can probably give away to someone. The other one really is just junk.

The funny thing is that I rarely use strollers. I don't even use the sling as much anymore. My daughter only seems to like to be in it when she is sleepy, so I've gotten out of the habit of using it around the house as much. I end up putting her down on the floor all the time because it is the path of least resistance, ya' know? I feel like if I have to carry her everywhere and do stuff, it's just easier not to do stuff. But I've used the sling recently at Disneyland, and I've always used a sling instead of a stroller in the airport. I even used the sling at the National Zoo when my daughter was 3. I just find it handier, but many moms find the stroller handier.

I did like the stroller when she was a baby and I could put the carrier up in the stroller so she was high up and could face me. This time around I didn't do that, I just used the sling in the snuggle hold and it works really well.

Anyway, the biggest reason not to have a stroller is that one day your baby will be a 5 year old and everytime you try to get her to take a walk with you, she will insist on being pushed in the stroller, the same stroller that she hated when she was 2 and that caused her to act as if she was being eaten alive by bears just to have to ride in it, causing you to have to work out a different way to take your walks, and sometimes that way was walking for a half a mile or mile at a two year old's pace, but now that your child can walk more quickly and maybe needs a little more exercise than she has been getting, apparently the legs on the ground, moving back and forth, back and forth so as to convey her along in a typical human fashion, well, that is like being eaten alive by bears.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Throkmorton*
Oh, and DS is 40 lbs, and recently turned 2. Carrying him is pretty much impossible.

Dayum! Yeah, that would be tough. I could carry my daughter short distances (not in a sling) when she was 4 and just under 40 lbs, but somehow we turned a corner. She is about 42 lbs now and I feel like I can barely lift her anymore. But I think if she were 40 lbs at 2, that would be even harder.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Throkmorton*
Oh, and DS is 40 lbs, and recently turned 2. Carrying him is pretty much impossible.

Steph

I completely feel your pain. DD just turned two on May 6 and weighs 45 lbs. Like I said, it makes me so sad that I cannot carry her as much as she would like.

We got rid of our stroller about 5 mos ago.


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## charmedgirlies (May 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmZaynab*
Is it my imagination or do people really look at me like I'm crazy when I have my baby in the sling and I am talking away to her? Maybe most people don't talk to their babies?

Umm Zaynab

no i find the same thing iven even been seen talking away to jack even though he had since fallen asleep ... i do notice that it happens much much more when its just the 2 of us at the store if lexi stays at home. apparently i'm not so weird for discussing produce choices with a 4 yo


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

We relied on the stroller by and large for sleeping babes and toddlers. Our boys were (are) on the heavy side and after about 6 months it was hard to sling them while they were dead sleeping weight, and I appriciated letting my torso breath a little while slept in the stroller! So we'd bring the stroller places and let it hold our bags and jackets, and then lay the baby down when he fell asleep. And as toddlers, we always gave the option of, _"_If you feel tired you can ride in the stroller." Also there have been phases where I've need to say, _"_If you run away from mommy in the store then you will have to ride in the stroller."

There are 2 situations I can think of where other people's stroller use *really* bothers me. One is when the baby is crying and the parent doesn't pick them up out of the stroller.







The other is when parents habitually push seriously overweight toddlers or preschoolers in the stroller. I just think to myself, _"That child needs to WALK!"_ I have customers in the store where I work who do this -- who have 3 or 4 year old children wearing a size 8 or 10, and I never see the child actually walking!


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## MountainLovinMama (Mar 11, 2004)

I feel there is a place for strollers, and perhaps that place is different for every family. For us, we use the jog stroller regularly for runs with dd, and have been since she was first able to sit up. She/we love it - we live in the mountains and getting out on the dirt road to visit nearby lakes, watch the changing seasons, often watch animals, etc etc is a special time in our days. I love running - and dd loves coming along, collecting rocks and leaves along the way, talking about what she sees, etc etc. Without the jog stroller, I would not be as patient or sane a mother - those runs are very centering for me! Of course, dd gets lots of ambulatory exploration time each day too! Other than that, when we are out and about doing errands, traveling, etc, we used the sling until she could walk - and wanted to walk. Love it for its closeness, simplicity, security, etc, etc.

One issue I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread is our culture's (for those of us who live in the US) obesity. If a child is pushed everywhere in a stroller until he/she is five years old or even older, it seems natural that once they finally truly outgrow the stroller there is a deep pattern of not walking anywhere - and a resistance to changing that. If a parent is carrying a child, that is self-limiting; the child will become too big to carry and will have to walk at some point. It is a small thing, but one of many small things that probably act together to encourage our sedentary and overweight lifestyles and attitudes. That is not to say that stollers have no place, just point out another negative in using them ALL the time, and especially with older kids.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I just think to myself, _"That child needs to WALK!"_ I have customers in the store where I work who do this -- who have 3 or 4 year old children wearing a size 8 or 10, and I never see the child actually walking!









I wonder if that is part of why they got so heavy in the first place. Perhaps their parents have always found it easier to confine the child to a stroller, and this is one of the repurcussions. That is one of the things I was trying to convey in my post, though, the fact that my 5 year old should walk but wants to ride, but this is when I am going for a long walk, which happened to us the other day. I guess she dislikes my walks, but she used to want to take them with me. I can get her to exercise when I make things a game, or even when I'm using the treadmill and weights in my basement exercise room. Last night she was showing me all sorts of different ways to exercise. She wants to go with me when I take a walk, but asking her to walk? Anathema! She doesn't want to stay home, nor does she want to walk a long distance I usually do leave her at home, but my MIL pushed her in the stroller the other day while I carried Jess in the sling. But Molly took a walk later with Grampa.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi (kd)*
One issue I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread is our culture's (for those of us who live in the US) obesity. If a child is pushed everywhere in a stroller until he/she is five years old or even older, it seems natural that once they finally truly outgrow the stroller there is a deep pattern of not walking anywhere - and a resistance to changing that.

That is what I was trying to say in my first post, but I was being silly in the way I said it, as I am in most things.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

I probably posted this in the wrong spot...sorry:

Quote:

NAIROBI, Kenya -- Irene Wambui can't imagine why anyone would buy a baby stroller. She says she sees it as a cold cage filled with useless rattles, cup holders and mirrored headlights. Imagine children being stuffed into such a contraption and pushed around town like some kind of pet.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...2004May17.html

I just started a thread in TAO about East African women saying strollers are horrible devices and they do not allow their children to 'sit like lumps' which is what they perceive a child does in a stroller.


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## MountainLovinMama (Mar 11, 2004)

amywillo - I don't neccessarily think it is worrisome that your dd does not want to walk long distances yet - she is probably getting plenty of excercise in active play. And if you enjoy going for walks, you are probably modeling healthy, active lifestyle and enjoyment of fitness. When I take dd for a run with me, she does not get a lot of excercise (though I do usually get her out at the end, or when we reach a beautiful spot - a lake, stream, etc- for some exploration time of her own), but I feel I am modeling joy in excercise and joy in getting outside and appreciating our beautiful surroundings. I hope that she learns through that that healthy activity is a normal and valued part of our lives. I am thinking more of the older kids who have always been pushed around and do not want to walk to the end of the driveway to the mailbox, or to the bus stop, or through a big parking lot or shopping center, let alone go for a walk or participate in other forms of excercise, who become the very sedentary older children and adults that are on the rise in the US. I would think that, as a parent, if you have pushed your child everywhere (and I am talking about serious overuse of strollers here, not the moderate use that most of us probably employ!), then you probably will underestimate your child's ability to walk any significant distance later on - they have never done it before, after all, kwim?


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

My two share a double stroller occasionally. They love it because they can interact on the same level. My three year old holds his little sister's hand and pats her on the head, she plays with his shirt. If someone isn't in the mood, she is in the sling, and he can walk. I regularly push an empty stroller around.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

IMO a child too big to be carried is a child big enough to walk. My son has been doing long walks since 2.5. At 3.5 he can walk at least 3 miles before tiring. If a child is never given the opportunity to walk they won't be able to do long walks. Its like a person who all of a sudden decides to work out an hour every day and they can't do it. if you've been working out an hour every day all along its no big deal to you.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
IMO a child too big to be carried is a child big enough to walk. My son has been doing long walks since 2.5. At 3.5 he can walk at least 3 miles before tiring. If a child is never given the opportunity to walk they won't be able to do long walks. Its like a person who all of a sudden decides to work out an hour every day and they can't do it. if you've been working out an hour every day all along its no big deal to you.

I dunno about that. My DS was big enough to be reeeeaaal tough to carry well before he could walk. He was a big baby. He could walk at 10 months, though (well, he could walk a little at 9 months and better at 10). But at 10 months I couldn't expect him to walk with me to the mall any more than I could expect to carry all 30 lbs of him all the way there.

My kids can walk. Two weeks ago we went on a hike that ended up being longer than expected - the 4yo made it all 5 miles but the 2.5yo only made it about halfway before he spent the rest of the time being passed from person to person, riding on everyone's shoulders. They've both hiked Diamond Head with energy to spare. But that doesn't mean that they've never been in the stroller - far from it. We used to use it often when we were in the mall or on our way to the park or whatever - it was just easier that way when they were both littler. They got plenty of exercise once we got to wherever it was we were going. But while we were walking along the street it was an issue of safety as much as convenience.

Anyway, I'm not making a whole lot of sense. I do agree that if you stroller the kids everywhere they're not just going to get up one day and start walking everywhere like they've been doing it all their lives - but I don't think that taking a long walk with a child in a stroller is all that bad, either. They can sit and enjoy. I know my siblings and I all enjoyed sitting in the running stroller while my mom was training for her marathons, we can't suggest that it is practical to ask a toddler to run along, or that it is bad for a toddler to get to go on that run just because they're in a stroller and not walking themselves.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Yeah, I would also have to disagree that you can always expect kids to walk without a problem. Ds walks pretty much everywhere these days, and we rarely use the stroller. But we've run into some hard times with this too. We went on a hike with my dad and sister a few months ago. Didn't bring the stroller or backpack or anything. After about 45 minutes into it, ds was pooped. He kept wanting to be carried. Dh carried him as much as he could, but he was getting tired too (ds is 3yo). I am pregnant, so my carrying him didn't get us very far. It took us a realllllly long time to make it back, and I was starting to lose it. I looked all around and the other parents had brought strollers - some were using them and some weren't, and I'm telling you, I've never wished for a stroller so badly in my life! But we made it.

The only times we really use a stroller is when I am by myself and will be in a busy or dangerous area, and I know that it will be tough to keep ds by my side the whole time. I've never put him in or kept him in a stroller if he was unhappy, but it sure is nice to be able to put him in when we're walking down the busy boulevard with 3 lanes of traffic and buses roaring by. The stress of trying to walk that boulevard with him not in a stroller takes years of my life.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
IMO a child too big to be carried is a child big enough to walk. My son has been doing long walks since 2.5. At 3.5 he can walk at least 3 miles before tiring. If a child is never given the opportunity to walk they won't be able to do long walks. Its like a person who all of a sudden decides to work out an hour every day and they can't do it. if you've been working out an hour every day all along its no big deal to you.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree - my kids are just plain BIG and HEAVY and by the age of 10 months they were heavy enough that I could only handle about an hour slinging and then I would have to put them down or my back would break - especially if they are sleeping. Considering they didn't start walking until a year old there wasn't much choice but to use a stroller sometimes.

My 18 month old loves to walk and he can go quite a distance - but he CAN NOT go 3 miles, he has gone about half of one way on my walk and that's it. And it's certainly not because he doesn't have enough oppurtunities to walk - I take him out walking all the time.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

When I pick up my son at preschool, he is tired. He could sit in his stroller and relax and drink his milk for 3 blocks, or he could whine for three blocks and it could take a half hour to get home. Or I could take the car three blocks, but I try to avoid that.

I don't feel I have to carry two children everywhere to prove something to anyone. We'd end up doing a lot less.

My son walks, runs, plays, is active and not overweight, and he goes in a stroller sometimes.

I am glad that I have the options of slinging (the baby), walking, biking, scootering (the 3y.o.), or using the stroller.

I wish I never had back pain. I wish my son was never cranky and always willing to walk safely for three miles. My life is not perfect, I guess. Maybe if I just cared enough.......I could make it so.

L.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I've always thought that people should tread really gently with the stroller/evil thing. I don't really drive a car - DC is hardly ever strapped into a carseat. I still sling my 2.75 year old child but I also have and use a stroller. More often than not my stroller is used to get groceries home but occasionally DC is happy to relax or sleep in there.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I find it a little bizarre, this idea that nobody should ever use a stroller.

If every family were like yours, Heavenly, then maybe there would be no strollers! But not everybody is 24, in reasonably good health and strength, with only two, average-sized children.

As has been pointed out, some folks have enormous babies. Some mamas have rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus, or other disability, or are in their 40's with lots of kids (no offense if anyone is, and still amazon-like in strength) and physically can NOT sling for longer than half an hour or an hour at a time.

Some people have several small children, or 2 babies and 6 school-aged kids, and can't sling everybody under 3 years old at once.

Some babies that are too heavy to carry, are not able to walk as far as their big brothers and sisters, or their mama and daddy. After all, they are not walking at all yet! But they need to be included in family outings, so they ride in a stroller now and then.

As for us, we have several children, and they were all babies at once. When dh was with me, here's what we did: baby #1 walked as much as possible, which was alot, and got in a wagon pulled by daddy when he got tired. Daddy carried #2 in a backpack. I carried #3 in a sling, for half-hour increments. When I had to take a break, baby got in the wagon with big brother, who held him.

When dh was not with me, I used a stroller, and whichever baby needed it, got in.

I have lupus, and extreme joint pain during flares. I also tend to have babies who weigh 11 pounds, and double their birthweight by one month. They are enormous.

My way of coping with these challenges is, to sling them as much as possible for me, at home and away, and to mostly stay home so I can sit and hold the baby since I can't walk and hold him for long. Once a week, I take my crew on a field trip, for an all-day thing like the zoo or hiking. On that day, the baby may not be held as much as he is at home, but he is still cue-fed, interacted with, got out of the stroller every time mama sits down, and never left to cry as he rides. And of course, by night, he'll be tucked in bed with mama like always.

What's wrong with that? What would you have me do? Should I not have children if I can't manage to navigate thru life without them all strapped to me 24/7?

I'm as crunchy as they come, but I'd hate to be so narrow as to believe that everyone is or can be like me.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

With one child I have only truly needed to use a stroller a handful of times. And even those few times I probably could have gotten by without one, it was more used as a cart to carry other stuff. And we do a fair amount of walks, festivals, and places like amusement parks.

But that is just me and I don't think I am anti-stroller for anyone else. We all have different lifestyles, support, and physical capabilities, and children with different needs. And when people talk about needing a stroller for long walks with 2 and 3 year olds--well, I can bet that most people who seem anti-stroller aren't talking about occasional use for a 2 or 3 year old. I mean, one mama by herself can't be expected to haul one or more kids around all day every day like that. We do eventually meet our limit.

I think the concern is with young babies. So maybe I am a little bit anti-stroller in that I really would not like to have an *awake* baby under the age of 6 months confined in the stroller so far away from its mom and dad. I think babies that little are meant to be held, period. I especially don't understand when both parents are there, and there is a tiny little baby (or even an older baby) strapped into the stroller. One parent can't pick the baby up if the other is tired? And strollers can so definitely be abused in that way. The moms I know, use it all the time. They drive up in their cars, park right in front of the store, and plop the baby in the stroller to shop for quick in and out trips like the video store, drug store etc. But I do think this is because they see it as quick and easy, as opposed to using a baby carrier of some sort. I personally hate having a huge stroller take up my trunk space and would not want to have to deal with hauling the stroller out on every little trip.

And that's the main reason I dislike strollers, is they take up so dang much room!









Everywhere we go there are empty strollers clogging up the aisles, the shelter at the park. I know I will feel differently when I have another child and probably will need to use one, but right now I'm glad I don't need the extra bulk everywhere I go.

I do agree that using the stroller all the time for older kids may start to get them into that sedentary type of lifestyle. I didn't even think of that before, but I think it's a valid point.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I don't have a problem with a stroller. I really liked mine when I was younger. My little legs would get tired quicker than the grownups, and I liked being able to hop in and out of the stroller at my convenience. I also think the stroller is more convenient in some cases than a sling. And I love slings. I think they're pretty, and they're easy to carry around, since they're a piece of cloth. I plan on getting an umbrella stroller for when I have kids. The things I don't like are those stroller "systems" that have a lil baby bucket, and attatches to wheels, and such. I think those are excessive. Plus, they're HUGE and akward. They're the stroller equivalent of an SUV. :LOL I don't think having a stroller is un-AP, but I think it's in the manner you use them. In general, I think slinging or carrying is the best way to go, but the stroller definitely has it's benefits.

Disclaimer: I haven't read anything but the first page, and I'm not a mom yet, so my opinion is based on hearsay and research, and not on experience (other than my own childhood experience).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amywillo*
From people who make it a point to say that they don't use a stroller when they are giving the laundry list of AP things they do.







I've heard it a number of times through the years.

But why do we have to take these personally? Me?...I see it as something they are proud of, and I'm proud right back at them. If not using a stroller was that important to them, and they succeeded, then good for them!









My friend is nuts about marathons. She has a T-shirt saying "I ran 15k..." blah, blah, blah.

I don't look at it as a criticism of anybody who can't run 15k. I don't see it as an insult against those who don't think running a marathon is "it". I just see it as a pride issue.

I am really proud that my daughter has never drunk a drop of formula, or ever had a bottle. But that does not mean I have any problem with Mums who had to supplement, or those who had to use bottles. It was just something that I set out as a goal for myself, and I'm proud!









I think the main reason I like to tell people "we didn't even own a stroller until DD was 8 months old" is to send a message: you may not NEED one! You'd be surprised how many people think it is impossible to have a newborn and no stroller awaiting the arrival of baby!


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## CortLong (Jun 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
Nah, I've had to do this too. Ever had to do this alone? Here's my 2 yr. old and my 4 yr. old on the other side of the metal detector, calmly waiting for mama (the guards weren't even paying attention to them - at all!) - and the #@$(*#$(*& thing malfunctions and they keep holding me up - I swear if my kids had started to walk away I wouldn't care about the stupid guard, I'd be through the checkpoint in a second.


I was just going to say (and a little off topic here) when I took 18 month dd alone in the airport to fly from NC to Indy last year. I had the carseat, my bags and the stroller (in addition to us two) and when I was holding her and walked through the thing it went off cause I wearing overalls and they had me put her down so that could run that scanner thing all over my body, wouldn't let her near me and she was halfway running away and trying to get back to me.







I was ticked!







luckily, there was someone I knew that just so happened to be in the airport right then and saw me and came over to help....okay, off my little soapbox now


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I don't have a problem with people being proud of not using a stroller. I didn't use one for a long time with my first - I mostly carried him (he did not like slings most of the time).

I take issue with blanket statements being made, like

"They will never walk anywhere if you use a stroller"

"They will be overweight if you use a stroller"

"If they are in a stroller, you don't care enough to interact with them"

"Kids have a "glazed-over" look in a stroller"

For some kids, a stroller is the only place they will nap - that could account for a glazed look.

If you see someone at random pushing a stroller, and you make those assumptions about them, that's judgemental and wrong. If you make those assumptions about me for using a stroller, I won't be hurt, but I will call you on it. And I will call you on it in defense of mamas with physical disabilities or PPD.

I don't think it is fair to tell moms to not be hurt when people judge our parenting choices, espeicially at a community where moms come to be supported. And for a member to come harsh on moms for using a stroller occasionally, and then post on another thread that she yelled at her kids all day, hmmm.......... I'd rather take my kids for a walk in the stroller and cool off.

L.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

"They will never walk anywhere if you use a stroller"








:

I just did a 5K race w/my 3 year old (38 mos) and he walked/ran the whole darn way while I pushed an empty stroller.

I'm sorry, but I have to







when people get so self righteous about strollers.

I walk 2 miles to the zoo near busy roads. Hmmm...should I hold their hands and force them to walk 4 miles just to avoid the perils of the stroller? My kids have a ball in their double.


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## CherylE (Oct 9, 2003)

Quote:

. I think of AP stroller-parents as having cheap carefree umbrella strollers. I think of mainstream parents as having those huge strollers (usually double) with fifty compartments, laying-down capabilities, cup holders, diaper bag holders, etc. Of course, I was thinking that this morning and at the museum, my AP friend and her sister were there. Her sister's AP and had the big huge stroller. So my stereotype is probably not based on fact or reality.

Dina
Well - I have the huge double stroller with cupholders now and a big basket underneath. You know what - I like it - we can put the kids sandtoys in the basket to go to the park AND a picnic lunch. And have water bottles in the cupholders easily available while we're out. Instead of my stopping and having to dig water out of some bag. I've got 5 under 5 though - so I'm always babywearing with someone even with that double stroller.

Oh and my kids last year did take turns walking/riding and by the end of last summer my boy (almost 3 at the time) could walk about 3 miles without getting tired and my girl could go 5 sometimes 6 miles. Pre-bedrest twin pregnancy. It'll be a LONG time before any of us can do that again. But I would not want to go for that long of walks without the double stroller AND a backpack or sling with me. Because if they all decide to be "too tired" to walk anymore at the same time far from home with no stroller. It's a BAD situation - bdtd - had to call dh to leave work and come get us. The kids were just too tired to walk home.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
But why do we have to take these personally? Me?...I see it as something they are proud of, and I'm proud right back at them. If not using a stroller was that important to them, and they succeeded, then good for them!









I don't anymore, but for awhile I felt a little prickly when people would go on about how AP they were and they'd include things that I didn't think were really about attachment parenting.

And then, of course, there are stroller bashers out there--people who assume that if you own or use a stroller that you are not a good parent. I haven't seen that happening here at MDC, but I've seen it elsewhere I don't take those things personally anymore either, because I'm happy with my decision.

I think part of the problem is that we assume that certain terms are pejorative or positive and it's all in how we look at it. I remember when there was a poll about how many people had used babysitters, and some respondents were adamant about how they didn't use babysitters even when it was clear that they did. The term babysitter was so negative in their minds that they had to explain that their particular childcare giver wasn't a babysitter.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I have a stroller... Its not huge, but it has a basket type thingie at the bottom. I cant sling Noah anymore becuase the sling I have hurts like hell (have looked everywhre for a decent one but to no avail. I can't sew to save my life and I cant afford to buy one on the net - exchange rate sucks..







) Im really sad b/c I LOVE slinging and so does Noah...









We dont have a car so I walk EVERYWHERE and the stroller comes in handy b/c I can use the basket to put stuff in that I buy or need (change of clothes, diapers etc). Amber walks with us. She is almost 4 and loves to walk around! Its good exercise for her and she enjoys being able to walk with us. We walk about 6km's everyday so I am glad I can use a stroller but I do wish I had a decent sling so I could carry Noah around more. When we are not walking somewhere, I carry Noah but for the most part we play on the floor (he is learning to crawl and likes it when we all get down to his level







)


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
I have a stroller... Its not huge, but it has a basket type thingie at the bottom. I cant sling Noah anymore becuase the sling I have hurts like hell (have looked everywhre for a decent one but to no avail. I can't sew to save my life and I cant afford to buy one on the net - exchange rate sucks..







) Im really sad b/c I LOVE slinging and so does Noah...









How old is Noah? With my first, I used a bedsheet (twin size) to sling him both in front and on my back. He was pretty light, though. I folded it lengthwise in half, and then in half again, so it was a long, skinny strip of fabric. To carry him on my chest, I would have him facing me, open up the fold so there was a little pocket there for him, but the remaining fabric was still folded twice, but those ends up over my shoulders, cross them across my back, bring them forward around my waist, and tie the ends under his bum. To have him on my back, it was the same, but backwards. I would usually have him sitting on the fabric on the edge of the couch to get him up on my back, tie it up, and then stand up. I tried this with dk#2, but he was bigger enough that it didn't really work. Maybe a queen or king sheet cut in half, so you have the length, but not the extra bulk?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
I do agree that if you stroller the kids everywhere

You've coined a new phrase! I like this









Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...-2004May17.html

I can only register to see this if I have a US address, as far as I can tell. I would be much obliged if you could maybe c&p the article into a pm? I know it's against the rules to do the whole article, is it OK in a pm?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

I PM'd you, brisen. but remember, the east African women haven't had the chance to log on at MDC and receive a lecture about judging women who use strollers!

Quote:

It's not so wonderful. In Africa, we just carry our children or let them roam. They can't sit like lumps," said Wambui, 24. "Besides our roads aren't even good enough for these devices. If everyone had a pram it would cause jam-ups in traffic. Then we would be bad to our children and bad to our roads."

Quote:

Africans consider the traditional method of toting their children the only true version of day care. When it's time for feeding, the food is right there as a mother shifts her child to the front of her body, nestling the infant to her breast.

Quote:

"The pram is the ultimate in pushing the baby away from you," said Frank Njenga, a child psychiatrist in Nairobi, Kenya's bustling capital. "The baby on the back is actually following the mother in warmth and comfort. The baby feels safer, and safer people are happier people."


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

I haven't read through all of the post because it's like 5 pages but I just wanted to leave my opinion on strollers.

I use a stroller. I have 2 infact. One is a jogger which I use when we go on walks about 1 - 3 times a week with other mommas or when we walk to playgroups. The other I would use if we were to go shopping (I hate to shop really so I don't use it much), I can't see myself trying to sling Tristan while trying on clothes.

I agree that many people abuse strollers but leaving their pour child in them for hours with out interaction. The poor kids probably think their mommy has left them. I try and make it a point to stop and just talk to Tristan so he knows I am still here. I also think it is sad when mothers use the stroller when they could be holding there baby and when the baby wants to be held. Such as at a feeding. They just shove the bottle in and keep on truckin, proping the bottle up so they dont have to stop what they are doing.

Anyways, this is just my opinion. I respect that everyone has different opinions.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/hathor/freaking.html

**ETA** Ok this was the link I ment to put in there.








http://www.angelfire.com/comics/hath...mfortable.html


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## ~OceanPotion~ (Apr 30, 2004)

I have a stroller and since I don't have a car its great when we walk into town to get groceries so I can hang them on the handles. Dd walks into town with me most of the time and I pack her alot which is great, just not when Im packing 6 bags of groceries as well. I have no problems with people using strollers.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I used a stroller (not anymore, DD is 4). She hated the sling.

Anyone who thinks strollers aren't interactive have never seen me walking with DD - we never stop chatting and laughing. She is definitely not the kind of kid to sit in one and space out for hours. We always had a wonderful time on our stroller outings, pointing out different things, playing peek-a-boo, sharing a bottle of water...


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## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

eeek...had no idea it would even be controversial









I am planning to get one, just searching high and low for one that will let my baby face ME and not away. I don't feel comfortable leaving a baby in a carseat all the time, so the travel systems are out. I've read too much about plagio and how it may be difficult for babes to breath properly if they are in that position for so long outside of car rides (I'm sure I'll have instances where I need to carry the baby in one...I just don't want to do it unless I have to). I can't imagine not being able to look at my baby, reach down and touch the baby, smile and interact with the baby. I realize they may outgrow needing to see Mom, but I'm not sure I'll outgrow needing to see them







Anyone have a stroller like that? B/c I'm *this* close to forking out for the Bugaboo









I already have 2 slings, and I'm only 13 weeks pregnant







and I have my eye on several more (my GOD some of them are so beautiful!), but I know a stroller is also going to be useful...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have been thinking about this thread and wanted to share how even the sling can be used in a less than ideal way. My DC is usually happy to walk (yes, even though we use a stroller) but she is the worlds slowest, most distracted, lollygaggin' walker in the planet! This is usually okay with me but occasionally we actually need to the next block in under an hour (lol!) and I usually sling her. She no longer loves the sling and sometimes I have to persuade her to get in.

I can relate to some of that quotes from the African article. I never travel with a stroller because in Europe, there are many cities or areas where a stroller would be a huge pain. There is normally this situation where there are cobblestone streets, which would necessitate a larger wheeled stroller but they would be too large for the narrow walkways. Also, there are steps on and off transportation and stuff like that. Plus, I hate to take up lots of space.

Somedaymom,

Like many people have said, there *is* a small problem with the pressure put on parents to think they *need* a stroller. I would recommend waiting to get one until you need one (or better yet, borrow one first!). You may find that you can sling successfully (and gladly) for well over a year - we're still going strong after 2.75! If you eventually decide that you want a stroller your criteria may be quite different than it is now, kwim?

I do think it's a good point that the perceived *need* for strollers is overemphasized in many places. It's a good idea to always evaluate and reevaluate what one actually needs because we are basically victims of consumerism as parents. I can't believe how we are taken advantage of because we are vulnerable from wanting the "best" for our children.


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## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

I have used a sling with a side sitter at the same time when I was in my early 20-30s on vacation, no way I could do that after my 3rd/4th pregnancys (vaginal varicose veins) or after my kids got a wee bit bigger

I enjoy reading posts from moms with varying opinions on parenting, some AP people here I can not relate to at all even though our family practices most all of the AP hallmarks because they are quick to be judgemental and admitedly I have LOL at some of the stuff posted as APdefined in the last 5 years, we have had to improvise many things I thought were set in stone with the older dc because of our next childs health, timing of births, their personalitys etc..
my stroller has a bumperstickeracross the front top that says 'eat at moms' it is an advocacy wagon at disneyland

I loved loved my baby sling & stroller days & my kids all enjoyed riding in them, my 4 1/2 yr old still does the stroller and we went to disney two days ago to see the new snow white show, the stroller is the place to stash the jackets and water bottle, tourniquet for snake bites(kidding), first aid kit etc.. we have annual passes, Vanna is a trooper but after hour 2 of walking & standing in line, she rides and it is the safest place for her IME trying to keep up with the boys is hard work for her - they are not fat kids at all or glazed over looking
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL207/...4/54413992.jpg
Vanna & 4 of 6 boys available







my oldest was in college that day, my dh at work in UK & you can bet my feet are dogs barking by 8pm

somedaymom one step ahead had a stroller like that I'll find a link tomorrow and pm you if I can find it, it is convertible handle swings so stroller can face each way


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Thanks, playdoh. It was interesting. I wish I could actually be there or see some fotage of these women carrying their babies -- I have a hard time once they are very big, and I can't do much when they are in the sling either. I did google a bit for some info, Pepper Mint has some good instructions.

I think we have to remember that we more than likely didn't have the advantages of being slung constantly as babies and grew up in this culture which is producing sedentary adults. I would guess that we're simply not as strong on average as those who live in places/cultures where there is more walking, more physical labour, and more baby carrying. I would also be curious to see how cities in Kenya are laid out and how they grow compared to the urban sprawl that tends to happen here. How far do most women walk when they are carrying their babies or other things? I'm not trying to make a guess one way or the other, it would just be interesting to know and make for a better comparison.


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## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

http://www.kenyaweb.com/vnairobi/general.html looks like a normal city layout

I think this has more to do with the fact that the US is a drive your car everywhere & bring your stuff with you walmartish nation and kenya is more walking cause we are poor and have cruddy roads & better things to worry about.
I would imagine the whole 'baby gear needed' infant registry concept would be laughable to most rural mamas in kenya. not just the stroller use but the bottle sanitizer, the boopy luxe, the exersaucer, doorway bouncer etc.... truly most of the stuff today is not really needed

AND BTW slings are geat for other uses -- I have used mine gardening to hold veggies I pick, as a pillow on a car ride, to pick up toys off the floor quickly, to carry stuff bought at the mall while ds is walking, try putting a OTSBH across your back filled with shopping bags and you have both arms free, looks wierd but it works, also have used mine in a restaurant & our old movie house as kind of a booster on chair arms


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