# Want a Searing Example of How Big a Difference Gentle Parenting Can Make?



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I just came across something FASCINATING in Alice ******'s book "Paths of Life" about studies that were done after WWII on the Germans who took part in the killing of Jewish prisoners, as well as studying those who had helped Jewish people hide and escape. She wanted to understand whether there were common differences between those who persecuted and murdered Jewish people versus those who put their lives at risk to help them.

There was a style of parenting in Germany at the turn of the century which has since been referred to as the Black Pedagogy. Parents were instructed to be the masters of their children, using physical force, pain, and denial of affection to toughen their children and keep them from crying at the earliest age. She said that many people who rose to power in Hitler's army were raised under this pedagogy.

And this is the part that blew my mind, She asks, "Why were there (some) people brave enough to risk their lives to save Jews from Nazi persecution?...I chanced upon an empirical study based on interviews with more than 400 witnesses of those dark days. The study concluded that "_the only factor distinguishing the rescuers from the persecutors and hangers-on was the way they had been brought up by their parents._
Almost all rescuers interviewed reported that their parents had attempted to discipline them with arguments rather than punishment. They were only rarely subjected to corporal punishment, and if they were, it was invaribly in connection with some misdemeanor and never because the parents had the need to discharge some uncontrollable feeling of rage on them...Common to all the rescuers were self-confidence, the ability to make immediate decisions, and the capacity for empathy with others. 70% of them said that it took them only a matter of minutes to decide they wanted to intervene. 80% said they did not consult with anything else."

Just thought I'd share something I found so fascinating.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Wow, it IS fascinating! Thanks for sharing!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We visited the Nazi Extermination camp in Dacau, Germany. There is a memorial there that states 'If we do not learn from the mistakes of the past, we are doomed to repeat them.' How apropos that mastering children came with such tragic consequences. And the same with Columbine.....one fights to regain the mastery of one's own life.

He who is not master of himself is at risk of becoming the subject of any master~Pat


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## Girl Named Sandoz (Jul 16, 2002)

Fascinating!

I grew up in Germany and since the 'cultural revolution' in the 1960s the way children are being raised has changed dramatically. This is a direct result of increased understanding of how the pedagogy and 'discipline' techniques used in the school and at home in the first half of the 20th century led to adults who were submissive to authority to such a degree that Hitler's autocratic dictatorship was even made possible.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I feel so passionately about this I am posting to keep this thread alive with a new name hoping more people will read it. What do you get when you spank a child? Someone who obeys to avoid discomfort.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think that the reason I went off to a very cult-like bible college and then worked at a very unhealthy abusive church for 5 years was because I was spanked as a kid. I was VERY good at submitting to leadership and domination and I was fully taken advantage of. Thank god I married someone who was a bit more of a free thinker and opened up my mind a bit. I think spanking set me up to be the perfect abuse victim in those religious settings.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

wow. really really interesting.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

I think that is a very fascinating and important study. Thank you!


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## Kiyomi (Apr 11, 2003)

Wow, that is fascinating.

I will have to save this for future use, too.

Thanks, mama!


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

It gives me chills: both good and bad ones. Even now after thinking about it overnight. Does she talk about the rest of Eastern Europe and the export of Hitler's ideas elsewhere?


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## mamazig (Nov 14, 2004)

Thanks so much for the summary of that very interesting study! It will make fascinating conversation tonight with my DH as we talk about our 2 yr old's recent behavior and our reactions . . . thanks again!


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi*
It gives me chills: both good and bad ones. Even now after thinking about it overnight. Does she talk about the rest of Eastern Europe and the export of Hitler's ideas elsewhere?


Yeah, that.

Was the same standard of parenting the norm in Poland, where the local population was particularly vicious in assisting the Reich? Who were, after all, their occupiers. Just as an example.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Wow! Thank you. I'm going to share this w/ all the parents I know.


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## twostraightlines (Aug 28, 2004)

NAK

Someone above referenced Columbine. Is something known about how those kids were raised?


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## tikva18 (Dec 21, 2005)

very interesting...


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Yeah, that.

Was the same standard of parenting the norm in Poland, where the local population was particularly vicious in assisting the Reich? Who were, after all, their occupiers. Just as an example.

I would think there would be at least some influence, especially since a large part of Poland was part of Germany prior to WWI.


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## julie128 (Jan 9, 2003)

I don't know about spankings, but I do know that most of the death camp guards were Polish or Ukrainians who had attended Catholic (inherently anti-Jewish) seminaries. Each death camp had a priest, and the guards used to go to confession all the time. Nice, huh.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

It was a parenting book written by some doctor.....man, I wrote a huge paper on this and cannot remember his name!

Hitller's mother and father read that particular parenting book and followed it word for word, as did many other parents in Germany. I read that book and it was awful! Things like tying your child to the bed, putting clamps on their genitals to keep them from wetting the bed, throwing ice cold water on a child who cries, etc. IMO, basic torture of a human being.

It was a parenting book, just like Dr. Spock's book, you can see an entire generation that was raised using his advice/techniques.

My mother always said, "The world would be a different place if Dr. Spock had told parents there is a chance your child will be homosexual, asexual, or bisexual." (This is just an example of how powerful parenting books can be)


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *julie128*
I don't know about spankings, but I do know that most of the death camp guards were Polish or Ukrainians who had attended Catholic (inherently anti-Jewish) seminaries. Each death camp had a priest, and the guards used to go to confession all the time. Nice, huh.


Well, yeah. That's my point. It wasn't just Germans. And it wasn't just areas of land that were part of Germany pre-WWI. The Ukraine is a perfect example.

So to blame the attempted genocide on the parents of the Weimar generation ... sorry.

Not to dis Ms. ****** and her research, but am skeptical. Is there any connection found to cultural parenting styles in what happened in Yugoslavia? Or Rwanda?

Another in a long line of "don't blame Germans, it wasn't their fault" theories. This one just says "blame their mothers."


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Not to dis Ms. ****** and her research, but am skeptical. Is there any connection found to cultural parenting styles in what happened in Yugoslavia? Or Rwanda?

I don't think you can compare the Holocaust with what is going on in Rwanda or Yugoslavia. Sorry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Another in a long line of "don't blame Germans, it wasn't their fault" theories. This one just says "blame their mothers."

I think it is important to learn how these ppl came to be the way they were. No one is trying to put the blame on the parents, but learning what kind of parent not to be.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I agree with Amy.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I was afraid some people would draw the conclusion that she was making excuses for the Germans. I couldn't quote the whole book! Not at all was she making excuses for them, nor was she blaming the mothers. You would have to read the book before you could dismiss the information so quickly. Her point was this attitude toward children was ENDEMIC in the entire society-- not just parents, but teachers, the government, doctors-- parents were told that it was for the good of society to raise children who were tough -- warriors- who could withstand pain and feared authority. She does talk about how brutal the fathers were, particularly with their sons. Her whole question was that most of Eastern Europe was anti-semitic through the first part of that century-- no one in that region is blameless in the persecution of Jewish people-- her question was what was it about WWII, and Germany, that pushed it over the top? What made it go beyond hatred into collaberative, active killing?

From what I've read in the book, it was German authors who fostered and encouraged the "Schwarze Pedagogik". On another thread where I mentioned this a woman from Germany wrote in and confirmed that this was how her grandparents had been raised. So it does sound like this particular parenting methodology was unique to Germany and it rose out of bitterness at their defeat in WWI--'we have to make the next generation warriors to reclaim our place in the world.'

If you google Schwarze Pedagogik, you can see that others have covered the subject as well.

Mama In the Boonies, your mother is absolutely right -- parenting books and 'norms' carry a huge amount of power over people's consciousness in their times.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

That's fascinating!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

When it comes to the Holocaust, I think there are very complex reasons that the German culture allowed them to do what they did. It sounds like parenting was one of those factors, perhaps a major one?

Fascinating, I wish I knew more about that. Although, not really, I don't want to have to read accounts of what those people did to their children, and what their children did to the Jews.

This whole thread does remind me of an article by Alfie Kohn I read just today about "character building" programs in American schools... some interesting similarities there! Here's a link :

Ummm, well my computer is acting crazy tonight (it randomly decides it only wants to bring up the mothering web site, and nothing else)... I will try to post the link tomorrow morning.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I don't think you can compare the Holocaust with what is going on in Rwanda or Yugoslavia. Sorry.


MITB, I also do not generally put the Holocaust on the same page as Rwanda and Yugoslavia. (BTW, it's what was going on, past tense, in those places, it's no longer happening, or so the press tells us.) The methods were different, as only in Nazi Germany did the country actually direct its R&D and scientific resources towards increasing the efficiency of the slaughter. Among other differences.

Though I'm not sure why in this case they can't be compared.

Am not dismissing the research wholesale, really, I'm not. Am just skeptical, feel that it's overreaching. Should probably read the thing before I post again, right?


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

I haven't read the book, either, but maybe the philosophy was one major factor of many that contributed to the German people's complicity in the Holocaust. This is all very interesting.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I just want to be clear that the original reason I posted this was the astonishing conclusion reached about the Germans who actually helped Jewish people. She is not attempting to lay blame for the Holocaust exclusively on German child raising techniques, but to point out that this brutal pedagogy took hold on a large scale we would now find unimaginable, and that it did contribute to the derangement of their humanity, but I just want to make clear that she is not saying it was THE cause of the war or the Holocaust.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
I just want to be clear that the original reason I posted this was the astonishing conclusion reached about the Germans who actually helped Jewish people. She is not attempting to lay blame for the Holocaust exclusively on German child raising techniques, but to point out that this brutal pedagogy took hold on a large scale we would now find unimaginable, and that it did contribute to the derangement of their humanity, but I just want to make clear that she is not saying it was THE cause of the war or the Holocaust.









:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Sorry I am going to have to disagree with ya MITB....

You most certainly can compare Rwanda and Bosnia and what is happening in the Sudan to the Holocaust. The systematic slaughter and attempted slaughter of a race in the spirit of ethnic clensing is the same atrocity whether millions die or several hundred thousand. They are still lives and they all matter... and we are still turning a blind eye.

Anywhoo facinating study OP... something to consider...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Sorry I am going to have to disagree with ya MITB....

You most certainly can compare Rwanda and Bosnia and what is happening in the Sudan to the Holocaust. The systematic slaughter and attempted slaughter of a race in the spirit of ethnic clensing is the same atrocity whether millions die or several hundred thousand. They are still lives and they all matter... and we are still turning a blind eye....

The same can be said about what is happening in America.


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## tekslilbrat (Jan 17, 2006)

Maybe not RWanda, but the Congo in Africa in the 50's and 60's can definately be compared to the Holocaust because unfortunately it was a holocaust itself. I had to do a term paper on Patrice Lumumba for english last semester and I had to research the early congo when King Leopold rules and he was just as bad as Hitler and killed so many Congolese for no reason. It makes me wonder if the belgians were raised like the Germans back in those times???


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## Anka (Aug 10, 2005)

I would hesitate to guess that similar parenting techniques were at the time wide spread all over the world. And in some they have lingered longer then in others.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

Wow.this thread makes me pause and think. Cambodia and the khmer rouge,China.....And then I wonder what we're doing to our children today with ritalin and prozac? I mean isn't drugging our kids into compliant behaviour just as insidious or more so than physical coercion?


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## LittleLime (Jun 30, 2004)

I think it is not only how they were raised but it has to to with religious upbringing too...it seems that a common thread in all genocide is religion...one religion against another. can't write much now and haven't really fully thought out my response so excuse the half-baked-ness of it.

And dont' forget the genocide committed by Saddam. Also religiously motivated.

In fact there are a number of questionable parenting "techniques" in the US all with religious underpinnings...e.g., Pearls and Ezzo.

I agree that we sometimes tend to devalue the genocide being committed in the present day...not really sure why. well...i have some ideas but i won't say them now.

it sounds like a really interesting book. i have read some of her articles.


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

The study concluded that "_the only factor distinguishing the rescuers from the persecutors and hangers-on was the way they had been brought up by their parents._
[/QUOTE]

Very interesting. It says a lot about our culture too and why certain people lack so much compassion. It also helps me to have more compassion for adults who are unkind and/or violent natured, not that is ok or that they shouldnt help it now, but they couldnt help it as children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
I think that the reason I went off to a very cult-like bible college and then worked at a very unhealthy abusive church for 5 years was because I was spanked as a kid. I was VERY good at submitting to leadership and domination and I was fully taken advantage of. Thank god I married someone who was a bit more of a free thinker and opened up my mind a bit. I think spanking set me up to be the perfect abuse victim in those religious settings.

Isn't it funny how many churches are so supportive of spanking? I always thought it was a necessity in parenting and discipline partly because of that but as I learn more about the Bible and Jesus and what a rod was used for in the Bible (to steer the sheep, not beat) I am changing my views.


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## pfamilygal (Feb 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
The same can be said about what is happening in America.


What are you talking about?


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## Anka (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleLime*
I think it is not only how they were raised but it has to to with religious upbringing too...it seems that a common thread in all genocide is religion...one religion against another. can't write much now and haven't really fully thought out my response so excuse the half-baked-ness of it.

And dont' forget the genocide committed by Saddam. Also religiously motivated.

In fact there are a number of questionable parenting "techniques" in the US all with religious underpinnings...e.g., Pearls and Ezzo.

I agree that we sometimes tend to devalue the genocide being committed in the present day...not really sure why. well...i have some ideas but i won't say them now.

it sounds like a really interesting book. i have read some of her articles.

Acctually... the Holocaust had nothing to do with religion. In truth, christian sekts were persecuted as well, as were communists. The basis for the Nazi propaganda was the superiority of the german people. Jews were not persecuted because of their religious believes, if that had been it, then secular jews, or jews converting to christianity, would not have been persecuted, but they were.

Saddam and his regime was secular. The genocides commited was due to ethnicity, not religion. Many kurds are muslims.

pfamilygal, I'd guess MITB is refering to the blatant disregard for human rights and international laws when it comes to dealing with suspected terrorists, and the use of torture by proxy and similar features displayed by the US (and by that, I'm not saying no other countries are guilty of doing so. There are plenty.)


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## Helen White (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for posting this.


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