# What do I do with this kid?!



## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

This happens at least twice a day during the week, more on weekends when he isn't at school all day. He's mostly fine at school.

Here is just 1 example, but this is anytime he is refused (no matter how it's phrased) or asked to do something.

After dinner he was allowed some computer time (Starfall). When time was up he just wanted to finish the exercise he was on. I said OK, but then you are done. I had to shut the laptop because he was about to start a new one. I reminded him what he agreed to.

Then he asked for ice cream. We still have some left from Thanksgiving even though we usually don't have dessert. I said no. He walked over to his table & knocked over his chair, threw everything off the table, then came running back to me & started to push me. Sometimes he kicks or hits instead. 

He's defiant just to be so about 99% of anything. He won't even go potty if we suggest it, even when I can tell he can barely hold it. I try to avoid asking or suggesting anything but that's not always practical.

We notice & praise every little positive behavior. We talk later about why he acted that way & discuss alternates. He earns TV time for good behavior (well, we used to). I feel like for the last 3 of his 4 years we've done every positive/gentle discipline thing out there. I've read Kazdin, explosive child, spirited child, and others. I don't know what to do for this behavior.

Sent from my phone, please excuse typos.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

I assume you have a copy of the book "Kazdin Method" since you say you have tried Kazdin.

There are couple of chapters that I recommend you reread: "Troubleshooting" and "Beyond the Method"

You might try the book "Transforming the Difficult Child" or other stuff by Thomas Glasser. I don't think it's all that different from what you have already read, but Glasser has some original ways of communicating and using the ideas, so his stuff might just click for you in a way that nothing else has.

Also, if you bought the ebook version of "Kazdin Method" then you will not have the DVD :frown:. It comes with the paperback version. I suppose the DVD might help. I have a copy I no longer need, so if you PM me then I'd be happy to send it to you.


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## crunchymama2 (Oct 15, 2014)

wow, that's horrible! what did/do you do when that happens? is it perhaps time to limit the computer or sugar, or maybe give time ins/outs? i'm really stuck, my kids never had this problem. perhaps someone is showing him such violence... a kid at daycare/preschool etc?


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

muddie said:


> I assume you have a copy of the book "Kazdin Method" since you say you have tried Kazdin.
> 
> There are couple of chapters that I recommend you reread: "Troubleshooting" and "Beyond the Method"
> 
> ...


Thanks muddie! I got the book from the library but I'll check it out again & reread those chapters. We don't have a DVD player though I appreciate the offer. Will also look for the other books.

Sent from my phone, please excuse typos.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

crunchymama2 said:


> wow, that's horrible! what did/do you do when that happens? is it perhaps time to limit the computer or sugar, or maybe give time ins/outs? i'm really stuck, my kids never had this problem. perhaps someone is showing him such violence... a kid at daycare/preschool etc?


Hi crunchymama! Honestly, I freeze. Because otherwise I will say or do something I will regret. I am ashamed to say that when he first became more violent it only took a few times before I started spanking in return. His violence really triggers me. I've since become medicated for a depression that generally had me over reacting from a constant state of irritation. And so I an able to not react.

DH picked him up & carried him to his room & shut the 2 of them in there while he raged. Then I was calmer so we switched. I generally hold his feet or hold my hands out in a way that he can't actually hurt me until he gets it all out & climbs in my lap for a good cry & apology.

I honestly don't know why that's his go to reaction or how I can get him to learn to react otherwise. He goes to a true Montessori school & I fully trust he's not getting it there. My SD was being spanked by her mom until she moved in with us at 11 so we have NEVER been even physical with her. So he didn't see it there either. We watch almost no TV & he hasn't yet seen anything I'd worry about.

Computer also very much limited as is sugar. Time outs he won't stay in so we do time in with him in his room. I'm just blessed with one of those kids I guess. I wanted strong willed & independent & that sure is what I got! Hoping the next one is at least able to accept a "no" answer occasionally!

Sent from my phone, please excuse typos.


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## crunchymama2 (Oct 15, 2014)

ok, first, when he gets ready to be violent, i would take him aside, with dh as back up if needed, and say a variation on "when you hit me it hurts. i don't like it and it makes me feel (insert your feelings) the next time you do that, you will not get any (computer dessert, etc) for (insert amount of time due to how severe the violence is)." hope it helps!


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

Does he behave this way at school or only at home?


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

I know I'm suggesting this to everyone, but I really love this book- maybe look into 'The Conscious Parent'? Especially since you mentioned you're having a hard time with your own responses and your child's triggering you. The book focuses on how the scars from our past impact our parenting and gives some solutions. Whether or not you agree with her methods/worldview, her insight into how childhood trauma impacts parenting and ends up creating a vicious cycle is really helpful.



crunchymama2 said:


> i'm really stuck, my kids never had this problem. perhaps someone is showing him such violence... a kid at daycare/preschool etc?


I've got a 19mo who's never been really exposed to violence, isn't in daycare, and still acts out like that. Yeah, a few times kids have knocked him over at play areas, and one mild instance of bullying, but his violence predated it. He's had _very_ violent phases from a pretty young age, from back when he was 8mo there were times that he'd hurt me so bad I was afraid to be near him, even though I _had_ to be.

It's not the same as the OP, but for me the worst thing is that my kid doesn't even realize it's bad. He doesn't see a difference between violence and affection (probably because, again, he's never seen/experienced violence externally). When he tantrums after being told 'no', his behavior is clearly meant the same way as the OP's kid, but he gets rough even when he's happy.

The behavior is coded in some kids. Couldn't tell you why specifically, but it is _very_ primal behavior so I don't see it as overly shocking.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I only have a minute right now, but wanted to just say I've used Howard Glasser's Transforming the Difficult Child with good results. I think Muddie suggested this book. They also have a website. http://difficultchild.com/ I think you'd want to pick Kazdin or Glasser and stick with it so as not to confuse everybody (including yourself). Is there a parent support group that can help you implement the Kazdin and troubleshoot?

And did you say he is your biological child or step child?


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## mary a (Oct 3, 2014)

"I've read Kazdin&#8230;"

I am not sure that you have actually tried the Kazdin Method. It can be counter-intuitive for some parents and hard to get the details correct on the first attempt.

"We notice & praise every little positive behavior."

Instead,with the Kazdin Method you should notice and praise every little positive improvement in behavior. Pour it on thick at first in response to a positive change no matter how small, but fade the praise over time to intermittent as a behavior becomes established as a habit. The "Troubleshooting" chapter warns against constantly praising ever little positive behavior. You focus on improvements. You aim at small incremental improvements that eventually add up to a big improvement.

"I freeze" "DH picks him up and carries him to his room"

Instead, immediately walk away from him. If he is truly going to really hurt himself or damage something important, then you need to restrain him a bit, but minimize talk and emotionalism, just calmly restrain only to avoid important harm. The Kazdin Method for violent tantrums involves playing pretend games where he gets praise and approval for "good" tantrums that are not violent. After you establish nonviolent tantrums as a habit, you can extinguish them by ignoring them. Praising a good tantrum is praising an improvement. Note that improved behavior is not always positive behavior. Also, the Kazdin Method uses pretend games where a kid to sits for a couple of minutes in a pretend time out, you praise an reward cooperation with time out.

"ok, first, when he gets ready to be violent, i would take him aside, with dh as back up if needed, and say a variation on "when you hit me it hurts. i don't like it and it makes me feel (insert your feelings) the next time you do that, you will not get any (computer dessert, etc) for (insert amount of time due to how severe the violence is)." hope it helps!"

The Kazdin Method involves acting, not explaining. And, you are threatening consequences with "the next time&#8230;" but you should not use threats as a reaction. Instead, establish some rules for immediate consequences and let the kid know the rules, you can even plan them with him.  The just immediately apply the consequences when warranted with no threats and little talk, you might say "no hitting".

Here is a summary of the main points in the Kazdin Method:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/10-tips-parents-defiant-children/story?id=8549664

Here is something by Kazdin on the fact that explaining almost never works:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2008/04/tiny_tyrants.html

Also, I think you could use alternatives to "no". What was your plan for the consumption of that ice cream anyway given that you did not throw it away? You could have told him when he could have some if he shows self-control for a period of time. You could have told him when be could return to that computer program and what was required of him for him to return.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Just a quick note to thank all of you! The advice & sharing that I'm not the only one really does help. I usually read on my phone but I washed my phone a couple days ago! Pregnancy brain, oops. I'm at work right now so I'll have to come back later for in depth reading.

I'm going to take a look at all the book suggestions (including K again) and see if any resonate more than others for me.

And to answer 2 quick question - biological & no, he isn't this way at school. He has an occasional incident like most kids, but it's pretty much an at home thing. Literally. He's not even usually like this in public anywhere.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

It may be a stress thing, then. Most kids innately know to be on their best behavior with strangers, bottling up all the stressors and exploding when they get back to safety. There are techniques on helping kids to release stress in a positive way, you may want to look into that.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

I think it is a good sign that it is pretty much a home thing. That means that the aspects of the home environment are an important factor, the way you and your husband interact with the kid, something that you can change. Rather than something about the kid's neurology being the dominant factor.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I agree with that Muddie. When a child has a neurodevelopmental issue (including ADHD) it can't be well controlled in any environment. When it is the result of dynamics going on in only one situation, you target the problem better. That said, some kids with neurodevelopmental differences can 'hold it together' in school and fall apart at home because they "can."


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

neonalee,

You could use a family Kindness Chart:

https://familylinks.org.uk/sg-cms/pdf_docs/KindnessCharts.pdf

It's one way to help you and the family focus their attention on behaviors that are the opposite of the ones you are trying to get rid of.

Focusing on the opposite is very important. Ignoring, time out, and consequences will often not work without also encouraging the opposite behaviors.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

It would be worth talking to the pediatrician about whether or not an evaluation is called for. If there is an underlying problem, the sooner it's addressed, the better.

It's hard to tell if there is a problem or not. It _is_ normal for kids to bottle up the stress of the day at school and melt down. There's even a term for it- arsenic hour. Generally it's not "arsenic all-time-the-child-spends-at-home", though, so this _does_ sound extreme. The only question is if it's an extreme within the bounds of normal, or if it's an extreme pointing to an underlying problem.



lauren said:


> I agree with that Muddie. When a child has a neurodevelopmental issue (including ADHD) it can't be well controlled in any environment. When it is the result of dynamics going on in only one situation, you target the problem better.* That said, some kids with neurodevelopmental differences can 'hold it together' in school and fall apart at home because they "can."*


I'm glad you added that, because I was going to point it out. It's_ not_ uncommon for neurodivergent kids to be able to keep it together in school. Or at least to show only much milder signs of problems.

I was able to develop coping mechanisms half by accident in school and it's like a switch just automatically flips when I'm at work/school/etc, even though I'll have massive meltdowns at home. I never got any specific help for this as a child and still haven't yet.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Still no phone 

The Transforming the Difficult Child site makes me very interested in that book. My library has it so I'll get both this weekend. It's really grabbed my attention due to mentioning ADHD & Aspergers. My husband has ADHD (or ADD, I forget which). And though he has never been diagnosed, he believes had he had an eval when he was younger (and had the diagnosis been around back then) he would've been diagnosed as having borderline Aspergers. For myself, I have OCD, anxiety, & depression runs in my family, so a whole host of things that we try to keep on the radar with DS, but without jumping to conclusions or reading what isn't there.

I looked at the ABC article about the K method. It's much easier to structure my reply based on it, so here goes:
1. Notice good behavior and give attention to it.
2. Positive attention to good behavior can be a smile, a touch or praise -- or all three -- but do it right away and be specific about what it was the child did right every time.

This was what I meant about praising (I know I didn't describe well/at all). "DS, I'm so happy to see that you did xyz" or "DS you did so well putting those dishes away quickly without any whining!" and then he always has this huge grin and agrees with me. Often if DH isn't around during these things I'll make a point of saying to him later (with DS in earshot) "DH, you should have seen DS earlier, he xyz". And DS will run over and say "YEAH!" or whatever.

3. Instead of saying "stop" or "don't" when you see bad behavior, find the "positive opposite"

I'm not as good at this as I used to be. Unfortunately it has never seemed to make a difference. 

4. Enthusiasm counts. (see 1 & 2)

5) Start a reward system for a child who rarely does what you ask, but make a game of it.
We use accountable kids. Rewards for doing "chores" (basic care of self like getting dressed etc) would be screen time. Which he loves. Rewards for actual chores are money he can take to the grocery store for the quarter machines. Also something he loves. But there doesn't seem to be a reward stronger than the desire to ... act as he does.

6. Give an instruction only once.
And if he doesn't do it? He has been taken to school in his PJs before because he wouldn't get dressed (they have a uniform). This is our biggest problem area. Pretty much 95% of instructions cause an outburst. I'm actually considering on school mornings, once he's done with breakfast, reminding him 1 time to go upstairs & get dressed, and then if he's not ready when it's time to go just picking him up & putting him in the car. I don't know if that's a good idea or just going to make things worse.

7. Learn to ignore -- or actually walk away -- from annoying behavior.
OK, this is a huge problem. I would LOVE to. He won't let me. If I walk away he will come screeching/squealing after me, grab & hang on my clothes, etc. Not only is it an immediate escalation, it's a huge trigger for me. If I close a door he will kick it. I have no idea where this came from. We've never, ever even pretended we were going to leave him somewhere. Although he's always been at a daycare, he's rarely even had a babysitter! And he has enjoyed daycare/school since he old enough to actually do so. He's a very social kid.

8. Stay calm. I'm working on this one 

9. Punishment? We do take away a toy if he refuses to put it away at night. When his behavior is like this we'll cancel plans. By then I don't want to go anywhere anyway. These things only bother him briefly.

This post got really long, sorry. Nearly every day within a half hour of getting home from work (DH picks him up from school) I feel like the worst mother ever & I shouldn't have had a kid, much less another on the way. I'm close to just letting him do whatever he wants 

Tonight's episode: I asked him if I could comb his hair before we went to his sister's band performance. He said yes, I pulled out the pony tail holder. I said, let's go sit by your books so you can read while I comb your hair. Then when we got to his room he started up with his mean/angry voice about not wanting me to comb his hair. I mention the knots/whatever, he crosses arms & turns away from me NO! So I say ok and start to walk out and then the screeching and grabbing at me & screaming that he wants me to comb his hair. I remind him that he needs to use a nice voice & he throws the comb at me. And on and on. Needless to say DH went to the performance without us.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

So he is four going on 5? (looking at your signature, and can't remember if you gave his age earlier) Just by your last story about the hair combing--two things pop out--conflicts related to sensory issues and/or trouble in general with transitions; and challenges in his relationship with you in particular--his need for help and his wish to not need help. This conflict is usually at the crux of most conflicts for children at any age, but this seems particularly acute for him. 

I do wonder if it would help to seek the help of an objective counselor to see what might be going on. If there is a history of challenges in the family (ADHD, Asperger's, Anxiety, etc.), working with someone to get to the bottom of this might just be what you need.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

Getting professional input is a good idea. You definitely have a difficult situation. 

"DS you did so well putting those dishes away quickly without any whining!"

Actually, I think that praise breaks one of K’s rules: no caboosing veiled criticism on the end of praise. It think the mention of whining violates that rule. I personally would never use the word "whining" in front of a kid I was caring for and I would avoid mentioning most other bad behaviors. My rule is to never discuss or label harmless bad behaviors, just ignore and be unresponsive. I work on ways to respond to and describe good behaviors.

I cannot recall where K or any other parenting experts talk about what to do when a kid follows you around when you walk away. But I know it happens I have read about it in other cases.

When you prompt him to do something, always get close, and touch before you prompt. I have seen this work better for me in some cases.

"Give an instruction only once. And if he doesn't do it?"

I think K means to come up with a different strategy, like a reward chart for putting on the uniform quickly, for instance. Starting with a pretend game where he practices putting on the uniform and gets immediate praise and a reward. Practice the pretend game a few times when you are not under time pressure to get out the door. When you are under time pressure don't have a power struggle or nag, just take him in his PJs if he can get away with that.

When you take toys away, take them away for only a short time, a day at most. And try to avoid completely cancelling activities as a punishment, but I can see it might just be a practical necessity in some cases. In the K method, consequences are suppose to be immediate, mild, short, not used as threats, used repeatedly.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

I think it might be a good idea to evaluate him. 

It could still be within the realm of normal, though. Breakdowns over anything is part of how kids get their stress out- it's not rational, so trying to rationalize it only helps so much. It's an emotional release valve.

I agree that the stressor is likely to do with transitions and the pinnacle of childhood frustration: The desire to be independent and the fear of independence. Those two on their own can cause tantrums, so of course it's worse together. And, of course, it's much easier to sit here and be logical about it when you aren't dealing with it! 

You may want to record his tantrums to see if there are any trends. If you can figure out what sets it off, it'll be easier.

There's also a chance that he was overwhelmed by the idea of the performance. If he has sensory issues, performances can be overwhelming. Loud noises, bright lights, loads of people blocking you into your seat so you can't easily escape. If that's the case, then it's very likely there's a deeper problem.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Yes, he's almost 4.5. Pointing out the conflict of needing help/not wanting help really helps me! It's really hard to not be able to get a grasp at all on any cause for behavior. I find it so much easier to not react when I can figure out what's at the base of an issue. Tired? Hungry? Sick? etc. We've wondered about sensory issues in general in the past, but haven't seen anything to make us pay more attention there.

I really didn't want to write the part about the whining in there. I knew it wasn't the right thing to say, but it's what I did say. For a child who has never, ever gotten anything by whining, it's amazing just how much he does it! We used to completely 100% ignore whining. I don't understand why it didn't eventually stop. It's definitely something we should focus on ignoring again. Maybe he just doesn't realize he's doing it?! We've done nice voice/whiny voice before. And when we remind him to use his nice voice he'll either do so or have a further breakdown about not getting what he wants. But he does seem to know the difference.

I see a lot of agreement in the replies here so I'm definitely going to take all the advice to heart. It's not that I mind tantrums & breakdowns so much - it's the extreme behavior that I just can't deal with anymore. The things that set it off are pretty consistent - not getting what he wants or being asked to do something he doesn't want to do. And we really try to avoid it where possible.

Last night talking to DH he said he believes DS lacks empathy (which I guess is an aspergers symptom). I'm not really sure how age appropriate empathy is at 4? But he doesn't seem to be bothered by hurting or upsetting us. He's over it in minutes where I'm upset about it all night.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi-
From 3-4yo, my DD was very aggressive and did not have much impulse control. She once refused to take my hand when we were crossing a road, so I picked her up, and she punched me in the face. I would put her in a timeout, and within 2 min in her room she'd be playing with something and have completely forgotten why she was in there in the first place. Taking her to a restaurant was pretty much out of the question, she was loud, out of her seat, and would not listen. My DH and I had some long, heated conversations about what to do about her behavior. He wanted to increase time out lengths, become more strict, etc.

I read two books that became by absolute go-to parenting references: Simplicity Parenting and Unconditional Parenting. I stopped time-outs (went to time-ins instead, which now I do maybe 2x/year). I don't punish DD, really, ever...and I don't praise good behavior either.

My suggestion to try, which is very different from the OPs, is to stop focusing on his behavior (if you feel it's good/bad/etc) and focus on HIM. What is is life like? What is his daily schedule? How much of it is spent in a controlled environment, where he is expected to follow instructions, be quiet, etc? How much control does he have over any aspects of his day? Does he have real, daily down-time (completely unstructured, screen-free, where he can play with toys peacefully)? Simplicity Parenting describes how easily kids can get overwhelmed, and how they then become defiant in attempts to control their world (insisting on a particular cup, etc). Our culture is so much more restrictive now than when we were kids.

"We notice & praise every little positive behavior. " I know it seems counter-intuitive, but this is actually really disrespectful to him. Praising every little thing he does right sends him the message that you do not expect this type of behavior, you actually expect far worse.

He's still very young - IDK, empathy wasn't something I saw in my DD at that age I don't think. My DD, at 4, refused to wear pants when we were going out once (in December! She wore shorts). I slipped a pair of pants in my bag and she asked for them and changed in the car in the driveway. I knew I didn't have a kid that could be talked into putting them on - it would be a full on war which would probably result on us never leaving the house. At 4, DD was not concerned with pleasing me, and if I was upset with her, she wasn't sad at all.

I'd ease up on him. Putting away toys? A 4yo? Given your circumstances, I'd let that go. There's plenty of time to deal with that when he's older. His hair- get a 'wet brush', detangling spray, and let him try to do it himself. My DD wears a bob now because she couldn't deal with the knots. It was her decision.

Include him in normally 'adult' decisions. Ask his opinion on things, let him decide something that effects everyone else in the house (a meal, plans, etc). Show him respect, even though he's just 4.

My strong-willed kid is now very reasonable about almost everything, but I give her a voice in decisions and as much control over her world as is possible. I choose my battles sparingly, and when I have to put my foot down, it usually goes well.

Good luck!


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Just a quick check in. LOVE the nurtured heart book. The intro chapters describe DS exactly. Also love how detailed the approach is & we're going to give it a try.

But here's something interesting. His 16 yr old step sister left to spend time with her mom last Friday. It wasn't immediate but that's less than a week ago & his behavior has calmed. Not saying he's a completely different kid, but the difference is there. I don't know if it's a general lessening of tension, or maybe because their relationship can be so contentious (who knew a 16 yr old & a 4 yr old could find things to fight about? It's ridiculous), but ... There it is.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

neonalee said:


> maybe because their relationship can be so contentious (who knew a 16 yr old & a 4 yr old could find things to fight about? It's ridiculous)


Okay, this is concerning. Because it's not "a 16 year old and a 4 year old finding...", it's "Who knew a 16 year old could justify fighting with a 4 year old so much". If they were very close in age, I'd agree that it's roughly equal responsibility- but with that age difference, a 16 year old should be able to be the bigger person and have tools to prevent things from spiraling into a fight. I can certainly see a 16 year old getting frequently annoyed with her little brother, and on rare occasions having it escalate to fighting, but that they apparently fight so commonly sounds really worrisome.

I'm _not_ saying your 16yo is a bad person. It could very easily be a big sign that she's going through a really bad time and needs help. You and your husband _could_ be doing things to exacerbate it- although I don't know the situation so I'm just putting it out as a suggestion. Given how much energy her little brother seems to need, it's possible that she's trying to get attention- again, just a suggestion, I don't know your family life.

What are they fighting over? How have you taught her to handle these encounters so that it doesn't end in a fight? She shouldn't be _parenting_ her little brother- but she should at least have tools to put an end to it before it turns into a _fight_. Even if that tool is shouting "DAD! He's _doing it_ again!" then walking away and letting the adults handle it.

I think this is certainly something to address. I imagine living with a much bigger person that he's frequently fighting with is going to be very stressful and confusing for your son. That is _not_ an even fight at all. I'd also be worried about your 16 year old that she feels her only option (or a valid option) is to fight with a _4 year old_.

I'd advise you to look into sibling abuse. I'm _not_ saying that's what's going on, but I want you to be aware that this certainly could escalate to that point. Sibling abuse isn't uncommon, I'm afraid, it's just glossed over. You want to get a handle on this now, before it reaches a truly damaging place for _both_ your children.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Snydley said:


> Hi-
> 
> My suggestion to try, which is very different from the OPs, is to stop focusing on his behavior (if you feel it's good/bad/etc) and focus on HIM. What is is life like? What is his daily schedule? How much of it is spent in a controlled environment, where he is expected to follow instructions, be quiet, etc? How much control does he have over any aspects of his day? Does he have real, daily down-time (completely unstructured, screen-free, where he can play with toys peacefully)? Simplicity Parenting describes how easily kids can get overwhelmed, and how they then become defiant in attempts to control their world (insisting on a particular cup, etc). Our culture is so much more restrictive now than when we were kids.
> 
> ...


I have seen some of these suggestions work with more typical children, but the research is pretty conclusive that for defiant children, positive reinforcement coupled with ignoring negative is the most beneficial approach. I will try to cite some of the studies later when I have a moment.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

@sillysapling I probably should've put more info in that post. Lack of time as always. You are right about my SD. She's not a bad person, but ... When she was ... ugh, I can't remember now. Maybe 8 or 9? Her therapist (that her dad & I found & brought her to weekly when she was with us on weekends) told us she had the emotional maturity of a 4 or 5 yr old. I met her when she was 7 (when her dad & I got serious) & had her in therapy in less than a year of moving in with him. She moved in with us in 7th grade when we moved out of state & has improved greatly since then.

Most of their "fights" are about who is right. And often (though not always) SHE is. But yeah, it's stupid that she has to engage like she does. She is still in therapy on & off. Currently off because we felt it was more beneficial for her to be in her extracurriculars than therapy for the last semester (long story). She also does try to parent him. Which we've tried (without success) to curtail. She's a whole other piece of work, mostly due to early parenting by her mother & a very stressful divorce between her parents. She isn't abusive but I will say that we don't leave them alone together unless there is honestly no other option. Which has only happened twice in 4 years. That said, I haven't actually looked into sibling abuse, but I will do so.

Between the 2 of them I'd rather be at work than home many days  But we're working on it.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Geez... This sounds like an entire family dynamic problem. A great big gordian knot where everyone's stress feeds into everyone else's. I think it changes the landscape greatly, especially since his sister is trying to take on a parental role. Unless she's able to stick to your parenting plan, he's going to get conflicting messages.

That is a very difficult situation for everyone. The general techniques for how to address the problem will probably stay mostly the same, but it'll take more work to get results. I think focusing on keeping your and your husband's stress down is a really good idea, because you two need to be as steady as possible.

I don't think it's a bad idea for everyone to have a basic knowledge of sibling abuse, just because our culture glosses over it, but this is definitely a different situation.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh, definitely. I keep saying in my head - 2 more years. Then it's just the children I'm attempting to raise & not someone else's parenting! Thanks for all the advice & support!

This morning he had a 40 minute tantrum within seconds of getting out of bed. DH & I weren't even out of bed yet. I haven't gotten far enough into the Nurtured Heart approach yet to know what to do DURING a breakdown. So we took the 'don't feed any energy into it' tactic & just waited. Once or twice when he was close enough I reached out a hand to comfort him, but that made him angrier so I stopped. 

I had NO IDEA what was wrong & he wasn't able to do anything other than tantrum dramatically. When he crawled up on our bed & started hitting and kicking me at first I said he likes to hit mama. Then I fixed that statement to 'you are hitting mama'. Otherwise no response. I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to be done, but it seemed to work better than anything else we've ever done. It didn't amp up his emotion, he had nothing to fight back against (other than denial a couple times) and seemed to actually realize what he was doing for once. At one point, nearing the end, when I reached out to brush the hair from his face he threw my hand away from him, and when I didn't respond to that either he grabbed my hand back & put it on his head, so I was able to stroke him hair for a minute.

Despite taking 40 minutes (and subsequently being an hour late for school, but oh well) and not knowing if that's the way Nurtured Heart works, I feel like we might have made progress today. It sort of seemed like he was waiting for our response & every time we didn't give him one he tried harder. Then, abruptly he calmed down & asked for what he needed. But oh man, it was HARD listening to him scream that long!


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

neonalee said:


> It sort of seemed like he was waiting for our response & every time we didn't give him one he tried harder. Then, abruptly he calmed down & asked for what he needed. But oh man, it was HARD listening to him scream that long!


I think that is the extinction burst, which is typical at first.

Note that de-energizing is Step 3. I think things go better if you start Steps 1 and 2 first. See here:

http://www.thriving-child.com/blog/2010/02/3-steps-to-extinguish-unwanted-behaviors/

I think the extinction burst are less extreme and the duration of that is shortened if you begin practicing Steps 1 and 2. But perhaps you have already started those?


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh no, we've just started. I was pretty much flying by the seat of my pants that morning  mostly we're focusing on the neutral acknowledgement right now, per chapter 5 (step 1) in the book.

Please ignore typos, I'm mobile.


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## Renai (Sep 5, 2006)

I have no advice- I'm following so I can read all the resources in depth. I found this post via a Mothering email, and it is so timely as I am needing solutions for the exact same problem. The hairbrush incident, the potty incidents (she just had one 10 minutes ago), it all sounds very familiar. She turns 4 in January, and even the older sibling dynamic is there (my other dd is 15).


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## tinawoman (Feb 28, 2003)

*Have you read Playful Parenting?*

Its a pretty quick read, and really different then pretty much everything out there. Seems like in this case it would be worth checking out.

Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen
www.playfulparenting.com


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

@Renai good luck! It's hard having a kid like this. Feels like everyone has it easier!
@tinawoman yep, we even own that one instead of it bring a library book! DH is way better at it than I am & sometimes it even yields results.

Please ignore typos, I'm mobile.


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## UnschooledMama (Sep 21, 2005)

I always hesitate to respond to posts, but now that others have already shared wise words concerning an exceptionally beautiful philosophy of childrearing, you'll be able to take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Everyone's situation is different, but there are things that I wish I'd known about eleven years ago...

(I originally posted this comment on two other Mothering forums, so please excuse the repeats. It is, however, still relevant.)

I was raised by a couple of not-quite-ex-hippies, the oldest in a family of five kids. We were all unschooled a la John Holt: we had exceptional freedom to follow our interests and passions, and we had a lot more chores and responsibilities than any of the other kids we knew. We were out in the world, meeting people of all ages and walks of life, creating adventure and our own "education"--and when I grew up, I vowed that I would give my own child(ren) the same gift of freedom that my parents gave to us.

Fast forward to 2004, when my husband and I had our first child. We were planning on homebirthing and co-sleeping and homeschooling and Accepting Children For Who They Are. And for the next six years, we did our absolute darndest to love and appreciate and nurture our eldest son, who was always just a "little" bit MORE than all the other kids. He was more whiny, more wakeful, more "colicky," more delayed in reaching his "milestones," more needy of constant adult attention, more picky in his eating, more focused, more prone to stomach aches, more clingy...and later, more anxious, more depressed, more obsessive, and increasingly prone to more and more explosive tantrums.

He was our first child. People kept saying, "It's a stage!" "All kids have tantrums every so often!" "Lots of kids breastfeed for a long time, and don't want to eat solid foods until they're two." "Kids don't like it when their parents leave." "Is ANYONE truly 'normal'?"

I was so loathe to box my child into someone else's idea of normal. And even pediatricians and child psychologists didn't have a definite idea or diagnosis. Our son was just...hard.

It wasn't until the spring of 2010 that we realized just how much we had been compensating for our little boy's challenges, and how much energy it took to pretend that he was normal. Gradually, over his first six years, he had gone from an almost-but-not-quite Bouncing, Happy Baby...to a withdrawn, "rude," antisocial, tantrumming six-year-old, whose language was slipping away and who was at the very bottom of the percentile charts for height and weight. He ate three foods, I couldn't leave the house without him having an anxiety attack (forget about taking him anywhere), he had no friends or apparent desire for social contact, and his belly was distended and swollen while rashes were torturing him constantly.

It is now four and a half years later. I still have trouble using the word autism. He didn't have all the symptoms anyway. And for the first year and a half of the GAPS protocol, we had to deal with the most acute case of anorexia that I have ever known, to the point where no doctors or therapists had any further ideas. It became more crisis management than coming-to-terms with a diagnosis. We watched our child battle raging infections, and we're not out of the woods yet. But now, after nearly 56 months of monumental effort, my nearly-eleven-year-old is turning into the little boy who was hiding inside all along.

This little boy actually loves people, and is finally starting to learn some of the social "niceties" that he failed to pick up over his first eight years. This child still has tics and anxieties and obsessions, but gradually the tantrums decreased, while his coping skills increased, and we're all having a bit more of a chance to breathe. And all of this, pretty much every bit, is due to the healing power of Foods alone. In fact, the most amazing thing is that my used-to-be-anorexic, tossing-food-on-the-floor-child LOVES food now! He still hates raw liver, but now he eats every ferment, vegetable, meat, and soup that is placed in front of him (including the liver), and occasionally wonders why he used to not want to eat.

With any luck, we found GAPS in time to save my kids from becoming members of the Omega Generation.

Anyway. Many people will note correctly that their child is not nearly as bad as my child became. And I, still a die-hard unschooler who is inspired by "non-coercive parenting" and Accepting People for Who They Are...am STILL loathe to put any "spirited" "high-needs" child into someone else's diagnostic box. But it's also true that many years ago, MY child wasn't as sick as my child became. And because I was so determined to "accept him for who he was," I turned a blind eye toward the troubling symptoms that nobody could explain, including his delayed and picky eating, and rude and obnoxious behavior - and I tried the squelch the "complaining" voices in my head that would pipe up and say, "Gosh, I'm exhausted! Parenting is....a LOT harder than I thought it would be! I have...absolutely no time for myself. He is just such a...needy kid..."

When my second and third children arrived, I began to get an inkling of how "normal" parents might feel--tired, but not incredibly and completely drained of energy and coping mechanisms. These parents of normal kids might be tired of putting most of their energy toward childrearing and homemaking...but they would also be energized and inspired by their child's hugs and enthusiasm and joy for life. In our case, there really wasn't much reciprocity in the parent/child relationship (with our eldest), and instead of recognizing what was going on, I blamed myself for my poor parenting, poor household management, poor organization...ANYTHING, rather than noting the Not Rightness in a pathological sense.

So anyway...I have a feeling that much of what I'm describing is NOT your situation at all, and probably is not applicable. But my main point is that I think it's okay to take stock of how things are going, and notice whether things are Not Right enough to be really a problem. And this _doesn't_ necessarily mean that there's a lack of Good Parenting or Household Management Strategies, or that a child is Bad. It might not be anyone's fault...but STILL things might be Not Right, and there may be ways to address these things. What I'm learning is that healthy children and healthy parents are resilient, and don't require perfection in order to enjoy their days. It is the growing resilience in my little boy that is one of the things I treasure most about his healing.

These days, even when things are imperfect he doesn't always scream about it, or "act out," or whine for three hours non-stop. (Sometimes he still does, but much more often he doesn't.) My husband and I are starting to be able to appreciate the perfection in our imperfect lives, and share it with our children. And this is, I now realize, one of the things that families are all about.

Wish us luck - unplanned Baby #4 arrives on or about mid-March!!

Regards,
Sarabeth


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

i second the recommendation of the book "playful parenting", it is so good! i think it's really important not to think of the kid as "bad" or imply to them we consider them "bad" and when we are horrified or at a loss, using love withdrawal, punishments, etc., that's the only way they're going to feel. playful parenting encourages you to recognize the unmet needs of the child and keep things lighthearted and playful, turn anger or disagreement into laughter. it's really cool, and every time i've tried its suggestions, no matter how awkwardly i attempt, they always work miracles.

i will point out i also have been informed by the book "raising our children, raising ourselves" so that is going on the background at the same time—basically just not thinking negatively about the kid, but trying to recognize that bad behavior only arises from an unmet need or feeling misunderstood. and lots of other books, too, like "how to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk" and "unconditional parenting" have informed my point of view. i was also a difficult child myself, and have very poor impulse control at times, so i can relate to a difficult child, and i can remember how heart breaking it was for me when i really wanted love and approval, and yet everything i did seemed to elicit scolding, correction, disapproval. i felt i couldn't do anything right, and so it was discouraging, and when i felt i couldn't win, it was increasingly hard to feel motivated to try. i still did try, but many attempts were a flailing, exasperated mess. i never forget that when i am interacting with a difficult (or annoying) little one, and it seems the empathy for their internal experience (instead of focusing so much on what is coming out externally) makes all the difference. sometimes a (sincere) compassionate smile can do wonders. but showing the kid you're on their side, trying to help them feel good again (as opposed to so obviously trying to get what you want—peace and quiet, for instance) can really change how they feel, and when they stop feeling so agitated and despairing, when they *feel* better, that's when their behavior changes.

that said, i still as an adult cope pretty horribly with certain types of sudden changes of plans, and my spouse has even had to deal with me throwing fits over it before. i get a flood of anxiety, pain in my chest, and a desire to flail wildly (which doesn't suit me, so i would never) and often become verbally combative. we both know this is going on with me, and we try to cope with it, neither of us becoming angry at the other or rolling eyes at me or making me feel like a jerk. it's still hard to cope, it still takes an adjustment period, but i am so grateful my spouse is helping me however possible instead of piling disapproval or impatience on top of my difficult experience. and kids need that, too, but even more so. sometimes all i need to do to think how to respond to a kid in a productive manner is drop the judgment and put myself in their shoes, and think how i'd want to be treated. and then pile some playful parenting on top. i even use these ideas with the spouse at times!

and one last thought: "siblings without rivalry" is amazing. it is not just theory, but a super practical workbook that walks you through thought experiments to help you understand situations (and it reads quick and effortlessly . it's written by the authors of "how to talk so kids will listen". it helps you walk the fine line, too, between simply letting kids hash it out and being the arbiter, but it avoids the pitfalls of both: the smarter/older/stronger kid has an unfair disadvantage, and taking sides is toxic and relationship-harming. it shows how to empathize with both their feelings while setting healthy boundaries that don't pit them against each other.

(also forgive typos, also composing from phone)


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## Terry Barker (Dec 26, 2014)

I raised your kid.

My dd was very very very similar to your son. And I was the very earnest parent, trying to be good. I read every book, tried every this and that method, tried to do it all right, but failed miserably. Why? Because I made the very basic mistake of assuming that she was normal and that it was just a stage, and if I could only find the right method, learn the right jargon, etc. I talked to friends, looked online, went to seminars, tried my best, but in the end, when she was 17 years old she wound up on the psych ward of the local children's hospital. It got a whole lot better after that. I kept saying to the psychologists that helped us through that period, "Where were you 10 years ago?"

I can't do anything about the past but I can change the future, and hopefully you will listen to me when I urge you emphatically to just go get professional help. I tried different psychologists before the big breakdown, but it wasn't until the hospitalization that I learned about something called Dialectical Behavior Therapy and now we totally swear by it. It's not about you controlling your kid, it's about helping your kid in learning life skills for dealing with things when life doesn't go his way. Personally, I think everybody should study DBT from an early age, and learn these very important skills. I was reading all the posts in this thread and noticed someone talking about extinction bursts. Well, that concept actually came from DBT. Hopefully some of the skills are also finding their way into parenting books.

So anyway, I hope you don't do what I did, which is wait until something drastic happens before you seek out the professional help you need. Getting physically assaulted will continue until you finally learn to put an end to it. I can tell you from personal experience that being assaulted by a teenager who is bigger than you is really horrible and humiliating and shameful. I can tell you from personal experience that all this business about your kid acting out at home being a good sign is actually BS. It's not a good sign in the same way that alcoholics drinking in private is not a good sign. 
Trust me, I know exactly where you are coming from. I've been there.

PLEASE! Go find someone who specializes in Dialectical Behavior Therapy. No amount of "Positive Parenting" books are worth the cost of waiting. Meanwhile, until you find a therapist for your kid and you (DBT is a comprehensive model that works with and helps the parents as well), here's a book that may help...

http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions/dp/1572246499

While you're at it, "Nurture Shock" is eye-opening and a must-read.

PS For my dd the change was amazing. And she has gone on to really let her true self shine through. She graduated from college in June (Biochemistry) and is about to start grad school. If you met her now, you would never have any inkling of the things that went on before. And that's the best evidence I have of how much DBT has helped our family.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Not all "bad" behavior is due to a need. I think, with the OP, it certainly is- but my toddler's "bad" behavior is mostly because he honestly doesn't get the difference. To him, there's no difference between reading a book and tearing it apart, no difference between climbing into his high chair and climbing over a baby gate, no difference between hitting and hugging (I _hope_ he'd see a difference between _being_ hit and _being_ hugged, but we're certainly not going to teach it to him and I'm honestly afraid he won't see a difference).

A few people have brought up the issue of the OP's son having special needs, and I think it's good to raise the suggestion. When I knew in my gut things weren't normal but felt it was "too soon" to say, whenever I'd get upset about how hard things were, the complete dismissal from everyone hurt and I wished someone could just say "That sounds extreme".

That said, I'm not sure that this situation is a kid who's 'naturally' special needs. It sounds like the home environment is highly stressful, despite the parents' best efforts, and even the best child will respond negatively to high amounts of stress. I suppose, to a degree, there's no real difference- in the case of special needs kids, you have to take extra effort to reduce stress and help give them the environment they need.


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## Renai (Sep 5, 2006)

So, you only post on Mothering to advertise your service? Seriously?



LaurieACouture said:


> Children act out to signal to us that they have ...
> 
> Laurie A. Couture


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## harley#5 (Nov 6, 2009)

neonalee said:


> This happens at least twice a day during the week, more on weekends when he isn't at school all day. He's mostly fine at school.
> 
> Here is just 1 example, but this is anytime he is refused (no matter how it's phrased) or asked to do something.
> 
> ...


Neonalee,
I totally understand your frustration. I am going thru a similar situation. Has your son ever received antibiotics? Have you read about the GAPS diet?
I was blessed with a child who is strong willed, on top of that he was misdiagnosed and received a single high dose of an antibiotic. Within days he became violent and just a completely different child. I suffered so much seeing my child get so angry and suffering from this anger that made him do things like hitting then crying because he realized what he was doing was wrong, but he just had no control.
Six months later after trying many things unsuccessfully. I finally had a stool sample tested for gut flora and to my surprise some of the beneficial strains were completely wiped out. Most likely the antibiotic shot. Later found about the GAPS diet book which explains why some children are more sensitive as they are less able to clear toxins from their body including antibiotics and other medications. My child went on a high dose of probiotics ( I had to switch many times because some of them caused heartburn, I took them too so I was aware of any side effects).
Pro-biotics worked like magic. I could tell because if I went 2 days without them he will start showing the violence and the crying again. He is much better now, although not completely as I have not stick to the GAPS diet as I should. 
I just wanted to add my two cents, as I do not wish to see any child go thru what mine did. Good luck!


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

There are a lot of high-probiotic foods you can go with instead of getting supplements. Supplements are definitely fine, if you prefer them/they work for you, but whole food is still the way to go when you can. I say having taken no less than 4 supplements with breakfast alone- like I said, when you can. I can give more info to anyone who's interested, I'm mildly obsessed with fermentation (I love my water kefir grains and currently have a guacamole base fermenting).

Not saying if that's helpful here or not. I do still think a big chunk of the problem is stress, on everyone's part, but stress can mess up your inner ecosystem and some of the fermented food is just nice. It's a general good health practice, and you never really know what'll help.

(it may be worth looking into with your step-daughter, GAPS has worked wonders with some. Word of wording: did *not* work for me. I was _starving_ on that diet, I constantly ate, I ate more than normal, and my stomach still demanded more. I don't care if it _was_ the "bad bacteria" demanding I eat something else, I wasn't about to find out how long it'd take to best them.)


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

He did have antibiotics a couple times in his first year. Maybe a total of 3 times in his life? We do take a probiotic supplement though I admit we forget to give him his on a daily basis. It's something I believe in highly. He doesn't like fermented foods at all, except kombucha, which DH is trying to learn to make. He's a bit of a picky eater, despite my best efforts.

I'll take a look at GAPS.

THANKS!!


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Has he tried water kefir? It's a lot easier to make than kombucha, IMO.


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