# Choosing to live with not very much of anything.



## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

Okay, so I mentioned in another thread of a family I know who chooses to live very differently than I. I am envious sometimes and sometimes furious. I don't know why I have such visceral reaction and so maybe you smart ladies can liberate me from my narrow thinking.

This family (3 children ages 11, 9 & 5) have one parent work and have almost no $. The sahp could work and is educated (quit a 6 figure job to stay at home), but stays at home instead (the children are all in school). They have no computer, no tv, some toys (mostly books), one car (they bike a lot), one tele, and etc. I guess the biggest part that makes me furious is that whenever the children come to my house (which is a lot) they are ravenous for everything, including food. I don't think the parents actually neglect them nutritionally, but I think they could be a little more generous in thier food preperations. It is actually difficult being their friend sometimes as I have to really kind of corral them in their frenzy to touch every toy and eat every thing.

I get that people choose to stay at home to raise their children. I am one of these. We are a one income household and I totally understand why people make this choice. I also get how much it would totally suck to have to work outside the home for so many hours that you missed out on your children's lives. But isn't there a middle ground? And just because you are choosing a one income household does that mean you have to choose almost nothing for your kids?

I don't feel I am close enough to say anything and don't know if I would anyway. It is really none of my business that these folks are choosing how to raise their family, but I guess I wondered why they are choosing it? Are there certain values inherent in living a monastic life as a child? Why wouldn't you at least earn some $$$ so you can fix enough food? they are all terribly thin.

I just don't get it.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I do not see anything particularly weird about the family's lifestyle that you are describing. It's not mainstream, but it's not bad.

I am sure that my IL's look at us and think the same things about us. They feel very sorry for us and are ashamed about the fact that we live in a 700 square foot, one bedroom house with our 2 kids. (The fact that we are walking distance from the beach and in a cool 1920's bungalow on half an acer of land studded with huge live oaks on a street with million dollar homes has seemed to escape them.)

We are planning on selling everything, including most toys, and living in an RV for a year or so. Folks close to us are deeply concerned and think we are nuts. Folks are so worried about the kids.

We don't get it. Why do the kids need to have a playroom full of toys to be happy? Won't the adventure of exploring the country provide all kinds of play opportunities? Will we die with out TV? (We have not had television since 1998 anyway. Just a TV and a DVD player.)

We will just have the one car and our bikes (I so want an electric bike so we can extend our biking range.)

We have 2 phones. My cell is the "house" phone. DH has a work phone that is paid for and used for work.

We have computers, but again DH works on his so mine is the "house" computer. We unschool and I consider it a mandatory tool.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I don't really see this as weird, either. It's certainly not what mainstream media and marketing companies want you to do. I commend them for not buying into the marketing machine that tells everyone that the American dream is to have things, things, things, and more things. The more the better. My own father and stepmother cannot understand why we don't have a gaming system, drink soda, watch Disney, and wear everything Hanna Montana. Each family has their own level of materialism that is comfortable for their philosophy. I quit a job that wasn't quite 6 figures, but would be by now if I had stayed. I have an only, that is in school. I would hate to have her in after-school care for an additional 2 hrs./day just because I'm making money to have "things". I am sure that she would rather have that extra time with me daily, on holidays and summer break than she would want toys. I think it's sad that people really think it's better for kids to have a piece of plastic or a screen and controller rather than their own parents around.









If the kids are going hungry, then my question would be if they have explored all the different programs available to them to purchase food. Angelfood ministries, food stamps, wic, food pantries, etc. If they don't make enough money for food, then they need to explore their options. My guess, though, is that the kids are just naturally thin.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm actually kind of envious of their lifestyle. I'd love to be a SAHM for that long. And I love simplicity- people don't really need much to be happy. From what you describe they have more than we do, and our kids are doing great! If they are in school they have access to reduced price breakfast and lunch. Depending on the school district these can actually be fairly tasty and healthy (the last school district I worked in had great food, nothing like when I was a kid).

But it sounds like there's a manners issue going on here. Would you mind their lifestyle if the kids didn't run amok in your house, if they asked politely before using a toy, and only ate a reasonable amount of food while they were there? I think you are perfectly in line setting some boundaries around what the kids can and cannot do and eat in your house.


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## Veronika01 (Apr 16, 2007)

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way they're raising their children either. What I can comment on is this: my children have loads of toys and they get more than enough to eat. When we go to a friends house, they will eat like they never do at home (sometimes) and ofcourse they'll want to play with all the toys they're not used to. It's just because it's different from the food at home or different from the toys at home, not because they're going without at home. Just a different prespective.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I just wanted to comment on the OP's question about why she has such a visceral reaction to the lifestyle choices of these people.

In my experience, I react the most to other people when I feel like their actions / words are an implicit judgment of me and of my choices. So maybe seeing their simplified lifestyle makes you wonder if you consume too much stuff, which in turn makes you feel like you are being judged and found lacking.

I think it's really important to remember, in situations like these, that we are not actually being judged; that what's right for one family isn't right for another. This family probably doesn't give a second thought to your lifestyle-- so maybe focusing on that can help you manage your reaction to their lifestyle.

And I also want to agree with the PP about kids gravitating to what they don't have. My son can act like a complete pig when we go to someone's house







and it's really, really not because he's underfed or that he has no toys at home.

Of course, we don't know what level of eating/obsessing you are talking about; if it really is super extreme, you can and should lay down some ground rules.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

I think you just described my children and my life. Do we know each other?









We do live a very simple life; it's by choice. I tend to agree with Marylizah, perhaps you feel as thought their choices are an implicit judgement of your own. I stayed home for 8 years, we lived on a teacher's salary with four kids. It was more important for me to be home than it was to have a television, cable, nice cars, etc. I don't judge what other people do, though, I just do something different.

We eat gluten free, which for some of my kids is unnecessary. Only one of my boys has celiac disease. So, when we're out and about my kids do eat "ravenously" though I encourage them to use best manners and kindness.

One other thing: my husband and I are both college educated with advanced degrees. If we chose to, we could make triple what we do now. I don't feel that it would make me any more comfortable in my skin or anymore loving a mother to have more stuff, more bills, more money.

Try to be gentler in your judgement of people who choose to live differently than you do. If the food thing bothers you, maybe you can ask the parents to monitor what the kids eat at your home.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Well, here's another side of the coin... We are reasonably well off. We don't buy many toys for our kids, but the in-laws, etc buy lots (apparently because they think we're somehow neglecting our kids because they don't have the piles of toys that their cousin has). Our kids don't have many toys (although our living room is still full of them) because they don't really play with the toys we've got. They'd rather carry around the broom or play with my pots and pans than play with the plastic junk that my in-laws buy us. In fact, my kids pretty much ignore the pile of toys they have.... however, when we go to *anyone* else's house, the kids go nuts with the other kids toys. Why? The novelty of it. The kids like their own toys for 3-5 days and then they go in the pile and are ignored.







: So, maybe it's not so much that these kids are deprived than that the novelty of SOMEONE ELSES toys just is much more enjoyable than their own. Trust me, even on a very limited budget it's not hard to get toys - there's freecycle, craigslist, garage sales... you can get a huge pile of toys for hardly any cash, but if the kids play with them for a week at the most, what's the point? My son played with our vacuum cleaner for a year straight. EVERY.SINGLE.DAY. There's not a single toy in our house that has been played with even half that much.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

On the food issue -which seems most to upset you- maybe they eat so differently at home that when they are over they over indulge because your food is more children "friendly" or "excotic" to them. And if they are struggling w/buying food don't you think your friends would choose to do something different and provide for them kids. What i am trying to say is unless thye are really bad parents (but it doesn't sound to me like they are- I actually envy what they are doing and aspire to be more like that) I think they know what is best for thier dc. If the way the children act at your house is such a problem why not try talking to them about THAT issue.

I know my children can be simular in new/not home places espically w/toys we don't have. My children are very very hands on and active- they can be really overwhelming to others that are not used to them.

But from what you described I'd say its more an issue w/them and what you previce as them doing something different or "wrong". To each their own, try not to judge (I am sure there are those that judge things that you do that are "different" IRL) and look at them w/honest open eyes at the things you like about their life style.


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## ZoraP (Jun 11, 2009)

We have plenty of money and still live very simply by choice. My dds never complain (honestly, never!) about our not having a TV in the house, but the younger one just loves to watch it when away from home. That's ok with us. (My older one frequently reads her book right in front of the TV -- she's totally not addicted to it.)

Our girls are certainly not underfed, either (and nobody would think they were too thin), but they love to eat at other people's houses and usually eat too much if I don't caution them to have good manners. I think it's just the novelty more than anything, but surely some people must think I haven't fed them for a week.









That said, I did once know some people whose nutritional choices were very strict (vegan, lowfat, etc.), and their kids really were hungry because they needed more fat and protein in their diets than the adults. If you are concerned that this is the case, it may be worth gently bringing up to the parents. Some parents do struggle with managing their own dietary choices and making sure that the children's needs are met within those choices.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Nothing wrong with living with less, I am going to make a point to not overwhelm our soon-to-arrive baby with too much stuff even though we will be able to afford a lot. I grew up without very much and I never felt neglected for it. I noticed as I got older that we didn't have as much stuff as others, but we had so much fun with what we did have, I very rarely felt even the hint of jealousy. Besides, my parents were the fun ones, everyone wanted to come to our house as my parents played with us and didn't mind rough-housing in the basement and whatnot. The only thing that gives me pause is them seeming so hungry, but it may just be that they are just overly curious about food they don't get at home.

A lot of families live above their means racking up debt like crazy and that to me is much more puzzling than living within or below your means.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I don't feel I am close enough to say anything and don't know if I would anyway. It is really none of my business that these folks are choosing how to raise their family, but I guess I wondered why they are choosing it? Are there certain values inherent in living a monastic life as a child? Why wouldn't you at least earn some $$$ so you can fix enough food? they are all terribly thin.

I just don't get it.

It really is none of your business. How do you know they have "almost no money"? Why do you think they are not fixing enough food? Some of my kids are "terribly thin" but they eat ravenously, both at home and when we're out. I certainly don't consider myself "terribly thin" but I'm far from fat and I also eat ravenously. It's just the way our bodies work. My kids do not have a lot of stuff. We have legos, blocks, and trains, that's pretty much it. When we go to friends houses, they absolutely love the battery operated plastic toys.. for about 15 minutes. Then they move on to the next one. The toys they have at home are endless and can be played with for hours. When my friends come to visit, their kids are very excited to see our toys. That's just how it goes.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

We live pretty simply, but it sounds like the family you described is even more simple than our family. I have been trying forever to get my DH to get rid of our second car, and I finally succeeded in getting rid of the TV when we moved. We could easily afford a house, but we choose to rent a small condo instead. We will eventually get a house, I think, but I'm just in no rush. No one I know understands this one bit. For some reason, living in the US means that the second you have the money, or don't have the money in some cases, you get into the biggest house you can possibly finance.

My kids have a decent number of toys, but nothing like some of the families I've visited with. We don't put limits on books, and I spend as much as I feel I need to on food for our family to eat a good variety of healthy foods, and I try to buy local. I agree with PP that maybe you just have different food than they have and they really like it, and that your toys are different than theirs. Or maybe it's just plain bad manners and the family has not taught them that you don't gorge yourself on other people's food when you go to their house (I had friends like this growing up, and I don't think it had anythign to do with the parent's starving them).

Either way, it doesn't sound like anything they are doing is negligent or abusive, so it just boils down to how you perceive the choices they make. I am fully aware that my kids may have a lot of problems with the TV at other people's houses because we are TV free, but I hope that we will have some friends who are sensitive to it.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

We are a family of six in a very small 2 bedroom house. Our neighbours in similar houses have one or no children and most move once they have one child. We are the nutters of our locality.

My ILs can't understand why we live this way. Many other people can't understand either and think that we must be very eccentric or have some terrible secret or something.

The truth is that I could send my children to daycare and get it paid for by teh state so that I could go to work full time. I could get a full time job and our lives would be easier financially but I don't want to go out to work. I hate going to work and I hate working pushing paper around pointlessly. I don't want my youngest to be in daycare and I home school my 6yo because school didn't suit her. My older children are in school.

I am NOT lazy. I have worked in the past and earned good money. My dh and I now run a business which is not yet making us £££££ because we are paying dh's 10 year old debts from the business profits. We cannot afford to employ anyone to do the work that we do between us so in fact I am doing a lot of work at home during the day and late into the evening to keep the business running smoothly.

Things are hard right now but they will not be this way forever. I have hope that there will be a time when things are less of a struggle but I also believe that once we have money to spare we won't all of a sudden join the mainstream consumer society that exists around us.

I think my SIL feels the same way about us that you feel about this family you have described. She judges me for not working when I could be.She doesn't like telling dh about holidays she has been on because she feels bad that we haven't had a holiday.

For my part I judge her and feel sorry that she feels that she needs to work full time and be apart from her 3yo for such a long time each day just to pay for material things and 2 holidays abroad each year.

People choose to live differently and each of us lives with the consequences of our choices. Whether or not this is good for my children is my business not anyone else's. I look at my children and I see their frustration at not always having what everyone else has in terms of material stuff but I also know that they have an understanding that the possession of stuff is not necessary for happiness which is a lesson that many adults in our society could do with taking on board. If as adults they tell me that they hated their childhood I will have to take responsibility for that too.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Are they actually hungry or do you just have snacks that they don't get at their house. It may be simply you have different kinds of food and kids react crazy to that.
my kids do this when they go to my friends house. She has so many sugar filled sweets and convenience goodies that they want it all. She knows me well so she knows I feed them but we don't have "those" kinds of snacks so my kids go ape. Other than that they just has different priorities I see nothing strange about it.


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## jennygoat (Jan 19, 2006)

You might be talking about my family but I only have 1 child so I guess not. DD has a wide selection of good food to eat at all times. Yet when we go visiting she acts like I have not fed her all day. Usually other people have different food than what we happen to have that day. She wants to try everything out and at 4 does not understand that not everyone wants to feed her. I always have something to eat with us when we visit, if you don't want her to eat your food don't have your food sitting out.
Maybe you could bring this up with the parents, maybe their kids could make cookies to bring to your kids for snack time. Are they coming over uninvited ? Maybe this is an issue, they need to ask permission before they come.
Yes my DD could be called thin, we are thin people and she is like that. She does eat, LOTS.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I just wanted to comment on the OP's question about why she has such a visceral reaction to the lifestyle choices of these people.

In my experience, I react the most to other people when I feel like their actions / words are an implicit judgment of me and of my choices. So maybe seeing their simplified lifestyle makes you wonder if you consume too much stuff, which in turn makes you feel like you are being judged and found lacking.

I think it's really important to remember, in situations like these, that we are not actually being judged; that what's right for one family isn't right for another. This family probably doesn't give a second thought to your lifestyle-- so maybe focusing on that can help you manage your reaction to their lifestyle.


such wise words. they really resonate with some feelings of judgment i've been dealing with (feeling defensive and angry about some choices and comments a dear friend has made). Thanks!


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## Rowansmama (Feb 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
This family (3 children ages 11, 9 & 5) have one parent work and have almost no $. The sahp could work and is educated (quit a 6 figure job to stay at home), but stays at home instead (the children are all in school). *They have no computer, no tv, some toys (mostly books), one car (they bike a lot), one tele, and etc*. I guess the biggest part that makes me furious is that whenever the children come to my house (which is a lot) they are ravenous for everything, including food. I don't think the parents actually neglect them nutritionally, but I think they could be a little more generous in thier food preperations. It is actually difficult being their friend sometimes as I have to really kind of corral them in their frenzy to touch every toy and eat every thing.

The bolded part sounds to me like a wonderful way to raise children. However, the food thing might worry me. If they can't afford to eat, that's a problem, IMO. But if they're just feeding them, say, exceptionally healthy yet boring food, I can see why the kids would want to eat different food at your house.

I really don't think you should say anything at all. Seriously, it sounds like they've made choices about how they want to raise their kids which are different from the norm but not in any way harmful (unless, as I said, the kids aren't eating well)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

It could just be that the OP has different food at her home than the children are used to. We don't have a lot of processed foods, sweets, etc. at our house. However, we made a choice that we weren't going to fight it when we are out. So when my kids hit coffee hour at church, they probably look like they haven't had a good meal in weeks when, in fact, they're just pigging out on stuff they don't usually get.







I hope it doesn't make anyone "furious".


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

What is wrong with not having a lot of stuff? Most things people buy will end up in a land fill or polluting our environment in some other way. Everything we buy also takes resources. We live pretty simply too and I think it IS valuable to teach my children that their lives don't need a lot of stuff to be full. I'm not trying to raise another generation of capitalist super-consumers that use precious resources from the other side of the world to make/buy crap that will break and be thrown away in a year. I want my children to be conscious of where things come from and know how to survive without a lot of money and material possessions. ITA with the point that you probably feel judged by their lifestyle and that's why you experience this reaction.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

I guess I just see these more as behavior issues than anything to do with the family's chosen lifestyle. OP, do you set limits such as "Kids, you need to ask before getting a snack. It's not our snack time right now." or "Hey, let's get the playroom picked up before you need to go home."?

I have 3 kids and we have had a few kids come over who are what I call "dumpers". They come in and basically dump out everything in the family room within 10 min of being there. And these are kids who have plenty of their own things. As for food, my neighbor's kids used to come over and just start helping themselves. I just have to keep giving reminders about picking up and not going in the fridge at someone else's house.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

We have a TV with a VHS player (we have a PRECIOUS stash of VHS tapes, all the old school "good" movies we can't wait for DD to watch) but no cable...we're not "toy" people, either. DD gets a kick out of chasing newts around the yard and giggling and squealing with our doggies...most of her favorite toys are cups and bowls and wooden spoons stolen from my kitchen...pots and pans are a big deal too, pots and pans and a cup full of water and she's GOLDEN! We have TONS of books for her and even at just 16 mos, she'll sit and look at them for ages, babbling to herself, switching books around, etc. She likes sticks...when we moved and got all new appliances, the hobo tent she made out of the refrigerator box was a huge hit. Thats just kids though...there are a few toys I want her to have eventually...a leaf press and some good nets and jars, maybe a science kit...she TOTALLY wants a baby doll right now, she's nuts about them...so we'll find a good one and give it to her around the time this baby in me is due to come out. I want her to have a bike for sure and maybe a really great doll house if she's into it...dress up stuff is a must, etc...all in it's time I suppose...she'll grow bigger and tell us what she likes...but we'll never have piles of toys hanging around in the house, no plastic junk piles. I think that's valid, that choice. Children with fewer things tend to treat their things better, IMO..that's how it was for me growing up.

As for food...when we go some place where kids eat more "kiddie style" food, DD GOBBLES it down. She gobbles at home, too, she just likes to eat....but man, there is something about a hot dog and some chips that kids just love, eh? I let her get her fill because we just don't have stuff like that around the house and I remember as a kid loving to go places where people had junk food, etc...

It sounds like these people have made the decision to live simply...we do too. We don't buy "stuff"....instead, we scrimped and saved and now have bought our dream house in the country. In our opinion, this beautiful acreage, millions of trees, animals everywhere and awesome lake are the best gift we can give our kids...there is PEACE here and quiet, safe places for her to make believe outside...I don't think Fisher Price makes peace yet, or huge yards with no cars going past!







In OUR opinion, TV is a terrible waste of time, most toys are really just cheap thrills and people *really don't* need as much food as most Americans eat these days.

I don't know...maybe another poster is right, maybe their lifestyle choice feels like a judgement on YOUR lifestyle choices...but then, maybe YOUR lifestyle choices are a judgement against THEIRS? Why do your kids have more stuff than theirs? Because you think they SHOULD...right? It's all in the way you look at it.

It's okay for people to live differently...if you are worried about an actual nutritional issue, that's one thing....but really, the true test of whether their parenting style is okay or not, lies in whether or not these kids are really happy or not...and frankly, from where you're standing, I just don't see how you're the best judge of that, ykwim?


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

So lots of good posts here.

I actually don't see an issue with living simply. I do not "have a gaming system, drink soda, watch Disney, and wear everything Hanna Montana" either. In fact we do none of these things. I would classify us as living outside the mainstream too. I can see where I could simplify my life if I chose to, but I don't really wnat to simplify anymore than I already have. That is why I don't understand my visceral reaction. I am a live or let live type person.

I don't really feel judged by them although I do have a tendency to seek approval from people. Maybe there is something there.

I guess too I am being overly judgy on being 'to thin'. I know that is just how some folks are. Too explain a little further I do see some issues popping up with one of the kids and so maybe that is were my real concern lies and I have mixed up some of my thoughts. I know the deal with eating at someone elses house, and also the playing with others toys, I get that this can lead to frenzy behavior with any child. ONe of the children in particular though seems more ravenous, like she will actually take food out of someone elses hands to eat their food and will eat, eat, eat anything that is given and ask for more continouusly. I see this as deprivation and wonder why someone would choose to do this to thier child. Like buy some cheese and let the child eat for goodness sake. I have no idea if they use WIC or foodstamps or anything like that. My point is that they are choosing to deprive their children. They could if they chose too, do more.

I know they have little money because it is often the topic of conversation, like how we are sacrificing everything now type thing. I do not ask questions, these subjects are offered up.

I don't think no tv and few toys are deprivation. I can't seem to wrap my head around why someone would not allow their children more but I came from a family who had very little in the way of material goods and so I operate from always wanting more than I had. Like I said I just don't get it.

All in all everyones posts have made me see that maybe thier choices aren't that far off and that I just don't knwo that many folks making these choices. Except for the food I guess thier lifestyle could be considered normal and it is I who have some inner exploring to do....

Can't wait to read more.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
I guess I just see these more as behavior issues than anything to do with the family's chosen lifestyle. OP, do you set limits such as "Kids, you need to ask before getting a snack. It's not our snack time right now." or "Hey, let's get the playroom picked up before you need to go home."?

I have 3 kids and we have had a few kids come over who are what I call "dumpers". They come in and basically dump out everything in the family room within 10 min of being there. And these are kids who have plenty of their own things. *As for food, my neighbor's kids used to come over and just start helping themselves*. I just have to keep giving reminders about picking up and not going in the fridge at someone else's house.


Holy SMOKES! I would go BANANAS if some neighbor kid was helping himself...I don't even want to THINK about what I'd do if my own child did that...geeezzz! My mom would have skinned me alive if she had heard I did such a thing!!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i know my kids eat like they are starving when they go over to other peoples houses. it is not that they do not get much to eat here (they have plenty) what they don't get is processed food, meat, dairy or eggs......so when you give them that they go nuts. if you fed them beans and rice they would eat a normal portion at a normal pace and say thanks and go play....


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

OH and one more thing. I actually don't care that these children eat our food. I am happy to provide them whatever they want. Some of it is maybe more child friendly than not but most is your standard whole food, non preservative choices like fruits and veggies (striaight from the garden), milk, cheese, bagels, etc...

Half the time I would like to send them home with a sack lunch but I knwo theire mom will make them throw it away - like cheese sticks and pistachios where once returned to me as the children where asking to eat them Their mom was like, no you can't have it - then to me - you can take this home we won't eat it????


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
OH and one more thing. I actually don't care that these children eat our food. I am happy to provide them whatever they want. Some of it is maybe more child friendly than not but most is your standard whole food, non preservative choices like fruits and veggies (striaight from the garden), milk, cheese, bagels, etc...

*Half the time I would like to send them home with a sack lunch but I knwo theire mom will make them throw it away - like cheese sticks and pistachios where once returned to me as the children where asking to eat them Their mom was like, no you can't have it - then to me - you can take this home we won't eat it????*

Ummm, I'm saying this, honestly, SO gently....bolded =

I would be SO insulted if I felt like you were trying to send my kids back to me with "food for later"...like I was starving them or needed charity from you in order to properly nourish them...I would say something to you about it, maybe after posting on MDC about how my friend seems to secretly think I'm starving my kids and "can you believe she would honestly try to send them back home with food, as if I'm really not feeding them!" - can you imagine the responses a post like that would get here??

This poor woman may be picking up on your disaproving vibes...it may or may not be hurting her feelings...but I'd be shocked if she didn't pick up on the fact that you think her parenting style deprives her children of the "basics".


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Have you broached this with the mom? Have you said to her "i'm a bit concerned about how thin and hungry your DD always seems, do you think she's ok?"?


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## maryeliz (Oct 27, 2005)

This is bringing back so many memories. Did anyone else grow up in a house like this, because I sure did. I have a vivid memory of visiting another little girl after school when I was in second grade. Her mother had made a whole plate of rice crispie squares, which I loved but we never had food like that at home, I just shoved mine down as fast as possible hoping that the mom would offer me another. I remember seeing on her face that she was on to me, and she put the plate away. I also ate all kinds of gross things like toothpaste, baking supplies, those fruits that go in fruitcake. After I left home, I ate two candy bars a day for years just because I could, and I'm still a little weird about food-always wanting to know how much and what type of food is available.

For the OP, I think you could could take a couple different actions that might help you feel better about the situation. If the other mom is a woman you feel comfortable with, you could just talk to her openly and honestly-it sounds like maybe there are concerns and resentments on both sides. Talking about it might help you get a fresh start, but it is always possible that that conversation could result in you not being friends anymore.

The more cautious approach would be to just start meeting on neutral ground at a park or playground, where the food and toys in your house won't be such an issue.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

I admire people who can live so simply and not be caught up in this very American desire to constantly consume. It is not good for our pysche, the environment, or our kids.

I think it teaches us to never be happy with what we have, We constantly crave more stuff, or desire other people's stuff. We are so busy wanting we often don't realize what we already have.

We are hardly simple living pioneers or anything but you should see the reaction we get when we tell people we only have one TV. "But, what do you do in bed at night?" Well, we sleep or read or fool around.









But, we simply stopped buying stuff last year with the exception of books and music. We are much happier, much less cluttered, and have more money to save for something we really want-a house somewhere remote.


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## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

When we go to play at my friends house all my DS does is eat and want to touch and get out everything (he is only 20 mons) My friend always puts out snacks and DS helps himself as does her DD.

When my niece and nephew (8 and 6) come over the first thing they ask for is food and a drink. They eat like they are starving and I know for a fact they are not, there Mother has lots of food, incl lots of junky food and it is available to them at any time but they like to try what we have. I do not have junky food and they love to eat our whole food snacks









I agree that I do not find their lifestyle or the children's behaviours strange or disagreeable. I do how ever wonder why you are friends if you do find their parenting disagreeable?


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

I wonder if not some of it is the *novelty* of your house. I know with my kids we are vry particular about what they eat, no processed foods,veggies/organic. So when they go to a place, like our friends house, that has load of *stuff* like chips,neon pink cupcakes they act like hungry wolves







The *novelty* of the neon pink cupcakes is what gets them.

Also for the longest time we did not allow our children to watch tv so anytime we went somewhere that remotely had a tv screen they would be stuck to the screen. Once we decided they were old enough to know what things we would or would not allow the *novelty* wore off, the tv is mostly ignored.

I wouldnt necessarily see somehting wrong with their situation. There are lots of views that emphasize similar lifestyles. However if you believe that the ravenous appetite comes from not being offered enough food that something different.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
In fact, my kids pretty much ignore the pile of toys they have.... however, when we go to *anyone* else's house, the kids go nuts with the other kids toys. Why? The novelty of it.









:

This is the way it is here, too. And with food, too. I will feed my kids a ton of food right before they go to a friends, cousins, and when they get there they're like "that smells good, I'm hungry!"







It isn't that we don't feed our kids well, they eat really well--its that sometimes other people's food is exciting and interesting.

Plus, we don't eat packaged stuff, juices with added sugar, we cook mostly from scratch. So the idea of a sugary bowl of cereal or a packaged granola bar is super exciting for my kids.

But I don't understand why you are judging the family for what they feed their kids. Do you really know that they don't feed them much food or is this a guess? Have you had dinner with the family to see how it plays out?

Also, a lot of families are really hurting right now. Maybe they had a job that paid well, but it is really really tough out there and it isn't like they can just get another job so easily these days, at least not where we live.

And if you've never had difficulty making it through a month, trying to stretch food stamps, and then having that week at the end of the month where you had to choose between food and electricity, or food or gas to get you kid to school, or are just stressed over finances, then maybe suspend you judgment.

The last thing this family needs is the pressure that they are failing as parents.

Families in hard financial situations *already* feel like they have no control over their lives... I think confronting the parents would just add to this and ultimately not help them at all.

Sometimes parents in tough situations have to say "one bowl of cereal today and that is it for breakfast." Sometimes kids pick up on the financial stress their parents are under and try to eat less. It sucks. But it is happening in every kind of community right now, in every state. Families that *should* be making more money just can't. Families that relied on credit cards to get through the month, well, their credit limit was just slashed.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

I think you may be getting a vibe that is a bit off with one of the children and I don't think you should completely ignore your intuition. However, I also have a hard time digesting that these parents are so broke and are not looking into the resources to feed their children. I am assuming that since you are friends with them they are not abusive or neglectful in general, right?

You know, and as others have attested to, that kids go nutty with food. My MIL probably thinks I starve my kids by how they gobble down everything in sight. I feed them well RIGHT before we go over and even that doesn't help. There is just something novel about other people's food.

However, you see something else. I would agree that giving them a sack lunch was implying something that as a mother might hurt. I don't think you should assume they are starving, even if thin. My oldest is skinny and he eats like a trucker. I wish I was like him!

Anyway, what about if you went over there. You are friends, right? You know they don't have much toys so you must have been there. Is there food available? In the fridge? In the pantry? That will answer your question. If it is a no, there is not much of anything, then find a way to talk to her kindly and with resources available. If the answer is yes, drop it.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 

you should see the reaction we get when we tell people we only have one TV. "But, what do you do in bed at night?"










Oh, that is too funny!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I know they have little money because it is often the topic of conversation, like how we are sacrificing everything now type thing. I do not ask questions, these subjects are offered up.

Unless they're actually giving you dollar amounts, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I've known lots of people who talk about how much they've given up for one reason or another, or talk about how broke they are. But, I've done the taxes for a few of those people, and the impression they give doesn't relate very closely to reality, yk? I'm not saying that's the case here, but talk about how much one is sacrificing doesn't necessarily indicate how much is being sacrificied.

Quote:

I don't think no tv and few toys are deprivation. I can't seem to wrap my head around why someone would not allow their children more
I think different people just have a different way of looking at it. I wouldn't even think of this in terms of "allowing" their children more. They probably don't see tv or more toys as a benefit.

Quote:

Except for the food I guess thier lifestyle could be considered normal and it is I who have some inner exploring to do....
Honestly, with the food thing, it's really hard to say what's going on without actually being there. DD1 will eat all day here (but not at dinner). If we go up to my mom's, she could have eaten a whole day's worth of food, but will pester my mom mercilessly for white toast.

The grabbing food out of someone's hands sounds more like a behavioural issue than anything else. I can say that I've known two people in my life - one a childhood friend, and one my ex-husband - who I know for a fact didn't get enough to eat at home. Neither of them behaved at all in the manner you're describing. The childhood friend would eagerly take anything offered, but was hesitant to ask. My ex would load his plate repeatedly, but _always_ took more than he actually ate. He was the single most wasteful person I've ever met where food was concerned. He wasn't always that hungry, but he had to _have_ stuff.

I'd be interested in what these kids actually eat. The only kids I've ever met who behave anything like what you're describing actually eat a _lot_ of food at home. (They aren't thin at all, slightly overweight, but also _big_ kids.) But, the food they eat is largely simple carbohydrates, and they're usually short on protein, healthy fats and vitamins and minerals.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There are some pretty darn wealthy and well-fed but very skinny neighbor kids who come over and constantly want snacks. I wouldn't think the food thing would mean anything.

And people can choose to live how they want. There are some healthy choices in the list of things they do. Don't take it as a judgment of you and just let them be.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Unless they're actually giving you dollar amounts, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I've known lots of people who talk about how much they've given up for one reason or another, or talk about how broke they are. But, I've done the taxes for a few of those people, and the impression they give doesn't relate very closely to reality, yk? I'm not saying that's the case here, but talk about how much one is sacrificing doesn't necessarily indicate how much is being sacrificied.


This is totally true. My DH's parents made well over $100k together and live in a low COL area, but to hear FIL talk (while both were working making that much...) you'd think they were close to the poverty line. And THEY had no debt, house paid off, 3 cars, like piles of computers b/c FIL has an addiction to "fixing" them, blah blah blah. They were clearly NOT hurting for money.









For that matter... Dh makes well above the "average" for our area, but I am constantly feeling/talking about how we're not able to save. Well, yeah, it's stupid things needing to be fixed in the house/car/whatever or bills for our cat, or whatever has come up, paying for a home birth, etc, and we're breaking even (not falling behind), but MAN, I feel like we are totally in the poor house. My kids are super thin, too, actually... but you should see my husband. He eats like a freaking horse, too...


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## nikkiethridge (May 6, 2008)

Sounds to me like if the family was in a dire situation, the sahp has enough brains (and education) to go back to work if need be, so they must like their lifestyle and are just modest. I know my kid LOVES eating other people's food, just because it's something different...even if i've pumped him with food before we have left the house. So...


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I have a DD (DD2) who's rail-thin. She's always been that way, just like I was as a child. Anyway, she eats voraciously; she will inhale every speck of food she can get her hands on, given the chance. She's perfectly healthy, and she has access to plenty of good, nourishing food at home, with no limits put on quantities. That's just how she is. I've even seen her foraging my neighbor's playroom for stray Cheerios. I'd hate to think how you'd judge her, though, if you looked at her the way you seem to be approaching these kids.

We also live in a very small house (three kids, DH, and I, with two bedrooms), have only a tiny 12-inch TV that's connected to a used VHS machine, but gets no channels at all, one very crappy car, no stereo system, and fewer toys than most folks. We do have WAY more than our fair share of books, though, so maybe that disqualifies us from simple. Our furniture is shabby, and my kids' clothes are mostly used, although they do have nice outfits for special occasions. We don't travel because we can't pay for it. We give simple homemade gifts for holidays.

I too gave up a very well-paying job to stay home with my kids. My DH's work is soul-satisfying to him, and helps people in need,but doesn't pay much. We're perfectly happy without any of the stuff most people seem to find necessary. I'd be outraged if I thought somebody was judging my kids "neglected."

Do you have any real information that leads you to believe these kids aren't being properly fed, besides just observing that they always seem to want to eat your food?


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

If it was me... I'd talk to the mom about the child who is really all over the food as a parenting issue....

" When X comes over, she really wants snacks/food and I don't know what your policy is about this? Are there foods she can't have or times they can or can't eat? What should I do if he/she is unhappy with my response?"

It may be that she is unaware of their behavior at your house and it gives her a chance to inform you of any special/particular circumstances.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

I live my life as simply as possible. I live in a condo with only two bedrooms and buy most things used and very rarely spend money on myself. We had one vehicle for 4 years and my husband biked to work.

The reason I live simply is to reduce my impact on the earth. We live in a world with limited resources so using as little resources as possible is what I feel would allow more people on this planet to have adequete resources. The reason we have so many resources is because of our actions abroad. People are working for barely anything and we pay dirt cheap for resources and it creates poverty. We use force when the resources become at risk.

As far as food go I don't spend a lot on groceries but my daughter doesn't eat a lot. I know in some cultures people don't eat nearly as much as we do and only have 2 meals and I think there lifespans are actually a little longer so I don't see an issue if the kids are not starving. My dd sometimes will eat a ton at once when she does actually get hungry.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I agree with Diana (aka dmpmercury), and I would also like to add, that having "stuff" can be a huge burden. First you spend hard-earned resources on it, then you have to figure out where to put it; when it piles up you have to organize it, and when you try and throw it out, by then someone's attached to it. Simplicity is just plain SANE, and it's a more natural state of being and I am trying like heck to get there. It was initially fueled by lack of funds, but then when Freecycle came into being I found that having zero money doesn't mean you can't have too much stuff.

So now I clean and get rid of a little more each week. I want my home environment to speak "peace" to me, both inner, outer and international.


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## francie024 (Oct 23, 2007)

Editing for privacy reasons


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
, no stereo system,

all the posts haven't fazed me but no stereo? you've really sacrificed! i can't survive without music. do you have something else you play music on? lol i know so OT here...LOL


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

We spend over half of what we make on groceries and sometimes it still isn't enough. The fact that we are gluten free doesn't help. Sometimes I put perfectly nutritious healthy food that most people would drool over and the kids won't eat it. Sometimes we just can't put something on the table that they love. My kids have been known to say that we don't have groceries... we always have a pantry full of beans and rice and veggies. To a picky kid though they might seem ravenous to have treats that another family can afford. ( I may not have enough money to whip up a batch of cookies anytime) Right now they are sitting at the table eating rice pasta with a very very simple tomato sauce blended so that there are no pieces in it. It was what I could scrape up for them and probably cost over 5 bucks to make... they are fighting eating it. I just pop it in the fridge for later if they are hungry, but I can guarantee that if we went to a friends house that had fruit that they wanted or treats that they would appear ravenous and say that we had no groceries!
There is a big disconnect here in this area of the world. Are you sure that the family isn't providing nutritious meals? Is a parents obligation just to provide a balanced meal or are you obligated to buy all sorts of extras for them? If they only have a bucket of apples because that is what is available and in season and they go nuts over a banana is it somehow bad parenting? Just interesting how our lives have changed so much over the last hundred years that there are so many more things that people deem as nessessities.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
all the posts haven't fazed me but no stereo? you've really sacrificed! i can't survive without music. do you have something else you play music on? lol i know so OT here...LOL

I have a little portable CD player upstairs, or I can listen to something in my car or on the computer. The speakers aren't great, but it works for me. I'm not a big recorded music person, actually. I play piano and DH plays guitar and we sing a lot.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlobe* 
If it was me... I'd talk to the mom about the child who is really all over the food as a parenting issue....

" When X comes over, she really wants snacks/food and I don't know what your policy is about this? Are there foods she can't have or times they can or can't eat? What should I do if he/she is unhappy with my response?"

It may be that she is unaware of their behavior at your house and it gives her a chance to inform you of any special/particular circumstances.


















honestly if my kid was being a rude guest and gobbeling up food like I never fed her i would want my friend to tell me so I could address the behavior with my child. it would also give me a chance to assure her my children are well fed.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
all the posts haven't fazed me but no stereo? you've really sacrificed! i can't survive without music. do you have something else you play music on? lol i know so OT here...LOL

we do not have a stereo system. we have a cheap little boom box.....big difference, still something to play music on. i can also play radio, CDs, and my MP3 player on my computer.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Are you sure that the family isn't providing nutritious meals? Is a parents obligation just to provide a balanced meal or are you obligated to buy all sorts of extras for them? If they only have a bucket of apples because that is what is available and in season and they go nuts over a banana is it somehow bad parenting? Just interesting how our lives have changed so much over the last hundred years that there are so many more things that people deem as nessessities.
Great point. This is an interesting thread.

I am pretty sure some of my friends think we deprive our kids and that we are crazy to "waste" our degrees the way we do (we don't earn very much, and could earn more). I have noticed that people who grew up with plenty are often more likely to live simply voluntarily, and those who grew up with genuine want are less so. I wonder how my own kids will think of it one day? My husband is a lovely man, but he can sometimes talk angrily about how his parents tithed 10% but always said they couldn't afford to buy him the musical instruments and lessons he wanted.

I have seen my kids go crazy about processed, sweet snacks that we don't have at home, gobbling them up like mad. It's a little embarrassing. I sometimes have to think on the experience a little.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
I agree with Diana (aka dmpmercury), and I would also like to add, that having "stuff" can be a huge burden. First you spend hard-earned resources on it, then you have to figure out where to put it; when it piles up you have to organize it, and when you try and throw it out, by then someone's attached to it. Simplicity is just plain SANE, and it's a more natural state of being and I am trying like heck to get there. It was initially fueled by lack of funds, but then when Freecycle came into being I found that having zero money doesn't mean you can't have too much stuff.

So now I clean and get rid of a little more each week. I want my home environment to speak "peace" to me, both inner, outer and international. 

This is nice- you have just supplied me with motivation to start getting rid of more stuff (again). Thanks!


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

They (the children) probably eat ravinously because they most likely do not get lots of "treats" with mom and dad. The reason I am guessing this is because my own children act exactly the same way when they go to g-ma's or even to a b-day party or ANYWHERE where they are getting food outside their noraml everyday fair. I have been asked so many times "Don't you feed your children anything?" My reply? "Well of course not can't you see how un- healthy they are? My god these children are starving to death!"







Never mind the fact that they eat everything in my house and anyone else's the happen to go to. It's very embarrasing.


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## noobmom (Jan 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
ONe of the children in particular though seems more ravenous, like she will actually take food out of someone elses hands to eat their food and will eat, eat, eat anything that is given and ask for more continouusly. I see this as deprivation and wonder why someone would choose to do this to thier child. Like buy some cheese and let the child eat for goodness sake. I have no idea if they use WIC or foodstamps or anything like that. My point is that they are choosing to deprive their children. They could if they chose too, do more.

I've only ever seen one person eat like this, and she had an eating disorder (bulimia). I've never seen another person enjoy the act of eating so much. Not saying this kid has bulimia), but I second the PPs that suggested bring it up as an issue with the parents. I like the "what can or can she not eat" angle.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

I really appreciate all the responses and encouragement to process this in a healthy way. I suspect after reading all of these posts that I have been viewing the whole scenario through the narrow lense of my own experience. Even though I think I stretch myself to see things in different ways I don't think I was stretching very far.

I do admire this family for some reasons and am quite sure they are not neglectful to a dangerous degree. I will try and appreciate the fact that if only a bucket of apples are available that that isn't entirely bad. I personally would have difficulty with this, but I suppose if you can handle it it is okay to hold these same values with your children. Again, coming up from not having much and always wanting more (like my friends had) I would not choose to deprive my kids of some more things, even though they may be frivolous or maybe even just trendy.

And also thanks for the suggestions about creating boundaries and not being afraid to ask the mom what their preferences are since one of the children has quite a strong way of going for whatever they can get their hands on. I initially viewed this a 'the poor child must be starving' but now see that it is totally normal even for a well fed kid.


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## possum (Nov 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairymom* 
On the food issue -which seems most to upset you- maybe they eat so differently at home that when they are over they over indulge because your food is more children "friendly" or "excotic" to them.

Yes, as other posters have already said, kids don't always use the manners we would like them to. My 2.5 year old son is well-fed (and large for his age both height and weight), but we limit sweets including fruit. He is on a GF diet and until recently also CF. He can't share most of the snacks at playgroups parties, so we usually take our own (avocado, fritata, smoked salmon). We usually take enough to share, and mommies like our snacks but not the kids. Whenever other moms bring fruit to share, my son make a bee line for it and won't stop. You should see him wolf down grapes! He is just excited to have something that is a treat in our house and that he can share the food outside our home. Other moms love to share and watch him eat far more enthusiastically than most kids. I can guarantee you that he eats better than ANY child I know. Diet is very important to us. I'm glad my biggest issue with his cravings is fruit, but I know there are some moms who probably worry over my son eating fruit like there's no tomorrow. I try not to elaborate on our food choices outside of the medical requirements unless people ask.
Your friends may make very different food choices than you do at home and not feel comfortable expressing this because they don't want to appear condescending. I would try to let it go.

Melinda


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Village Mama* 
My kids have been known to say that we don't have groceries... we always have a pantry full of beans and rice and veggies.

LOL, that reminds me of my house growing up. My friends used to say, "You guys never have any food, you just have . . . ingredients."









I enjoyed reading your post btw. Interesting food for thought.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

I am so surprised to read all the posts. Nobody here sees a potential problem here?? I am concerned for the kids. It does sound like the kids are deprived to me. "they are ravenous for everything, including food" sounds like deprivation. THe food part would concern me the most (are they being abused? is food being withheld?) but their minds need stimulation too. Are they bored at home? What is an average day like? What do they do? Do they ever get punished and if so, what happens? Are you close enough to the kids that you could ask these last few questions?

I've had kids stay at my house and none of them act like this - we are usually so busy having fun and playing games that none of them ever ask for snacks, sometimes I worry that they didn't eat enough during "meals" when here that they might go home hungry, because kids do need snacks too, especially if they didn't eat a lot during mealtime.

I did read one of the posts where the parent returned a bag of pistachios and cheese sticks... seriously?!?! WTH is up with that?? Why did she have a problem with this , I can't for the life of me figure that one out, unless this child is being abused. We often send snacks and food and even little toys home with kids (they are relatives I'm referring to, but I can't really see the difference between friends either) and nobody EVER has a problem with it.. we probably do this because it was done for us when WE were kids... we would visit my grandma, and she'd always send us home with some of her healthy food from the garden, snacks or leftovers she prepared for us there... it was always much appreciated, a gracious gift, and we thought of her later at home and the next day because of it. Sharing your food with others is a GOOD THING, not something to be considered "rude" or implying some evil message that the parents aren't doing a good job!... its a gracious gift and you're supposed to be happy and accept it. If you don't like the gift given, you never return it and hurt their feelings!!

I think that was very rude of them to return the bag of treats you sent over - I understand they do not have computer or tv (I don't have an issue with) - but, do they have no manners too? That is unbelievable.

This sentence here really haunts me: "ONe of the children in particular though seems more ravenous, like she will actually take food out of someone elses hands to eat their food and will eat, eat, eat anything that is given and ask for more continouusly"

Are you sure she's not being abused? Is food ever withheld from her as a punishment? Does she have "rations" or is she allowed to eat as much as she wants at mealtimes?

IT sounds to me like she's being physically abused (doesn't necessarily have to be intentionally) by NOT getting enough to eat. OF course, it is also possible she has a medical disorder, and she IS getting enough to eat at home, but a medical condition is causing her to act this way. Someone mentioned an eating disorder, but perhaps even a nutritional deficiency of something that is not yet recognized. Like if she's deficient in something in her diet, her body may seek to get it by increasing her appetite, hoping the next thing she eats will fulfill her need! I hope she's been to the doctor for a checkup.

I think you should follow your intuitions on this one, and make sure there is nothing deeper going on that you are not aware of. ON a more positive note, perhaps if there were serious abuse going on, the mother would never let the child to your house to eat to her fill (which I sincerely hope she gets to!! - if this parent has given you ANY sort of food instructions or 'rationing' for the children, that would be setting off red flags for me.)

I don't have problem with limiting computer, tv, or toys, but let the child eat for god sake, WHAT is this mother's problem!?! Why in the world would she say "you can take this home we won't eat it" when the kids were just asking to eat it! The kids are old enough to be out of choking hazard risk (I can understand if they were toddlers, her having a problem with nuts), these are both healthy snacks, I just don't get it


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
I am so surprised to read all the posts. Nobody here sees a potential problem here?? I am concerned for the kids. It does sound like the kids are deprived to me. "they are ravenous for everything, including food" sounds like deprivation. THe food part would concern me the most (are they being abused? is food being withheld?) but their minds need stimulation too. Are they bored at home? What is an average day like? What do they do? Do they ever get punished and if so, what happens? Are you close enough to the kids that you could ask these last few questions?

I've had kids stay at my house and none of them act like this - we are usually so busy having fun and playing games that none of them ever ask for snacks, sometimes I worry that they didn't eat enough during "meals" when here that they might go home hungry, because kids do need snacks too, especially if they didn't eat a lot during mealtime.

I did read one of the posts where the parent returned a bag of pistachios and cheese sticks... seriously?!?! WTH is up with that?? Why did she have a problem with this , I can't for the life of me figure that one out, unless this child is being abused. We often send snacks and food and even little toys home with kids (they are relatives I'm referring to, but I can't really see the difference between friends either) and nobody EVER has a problem with it.. we probably do this because it was done for us when WE were kids... we would visit my grandma, and she'd always send us home with some of her healthy food from the garden, snacks or leftovers she prepared for us there... it was always much appreciated, a gracious gift, and we thought of her later at home and the next day because of it. Sharing your food with others is a GOOD THING, not something to be considered "rude" or implying some evil message that the parents aren't doing a good job!... its a gracious gift and you're supposed to be happy and accept it. If you don't like the gift given, you never return it and hurt their feelings!!

I think that was very rude of them to return the bag of treats you sent over - I understand they do not have computer or tv (I don't have an issue with) - but, do they have no manners too? That is unbelievable.

This sentence here really haunts me: "ONe of the children in particular though seems more ravenous, like she will actually take food out of someone elses hands to eat their food and will eat, eat, eat anything that is given and ask for more continouusly"

Are you sure she's not being abused? Is food ever withheld from her as a punishment? Does she have "rations" or is she allowed to eat as much as she wants at mealtimes?

IT sounds to me like she's being physically abused (doesn't necessarily have to be intentionally) by NOT getting enough to eat. OF course, it is also possible she has a medical disorder, and she IS getting enough to eat at home, but a medical condition is causing her to act this way. Someone mentioned an eating disorder, but perhaps even a nutritional deficiency of something that is not yet recognized. Like if she's deficient in something in her diet, her body may seek to get it by increasing her appetite, hoping the next thing she eats will fulfill her need! I hope she's been to the doctor for a checkup.

I think you should follow your intuitions on this one, and make sure there is nothing deeper going on that you are not aware of. ON a more positive note, perhaps if there were serious abuse going on, the mother would never let the child to your house to eat to her fill (which I sincerely hope she gets to!! - if this parent has given you ANY sort of food instructions or 'rationing' for the children, that would be setting off red flags for me.)

I don't have problem with limiting computer, tv, or toys, but let the child eat for god sake, WHAT is this mother's problem!?! Why in the world would she say "you can take this home we won't eat it" when the kids were just asking to eat it! The kids are old enough to be out of choking hazard risk (I can understand if they were toddlers, her having a problem with nuts), these are both healthy snacks, I just don't get it

Okay...WHAT?

We have friends and relatives who, when we visit, will send us home with special treats from the garden or some special cookies they made..THAT is sharing food. The OP CLEARLY thinks these people aren't feeding their kids enough and is puzzled at the way they live and is probably sending off that vibe pretty strongly....THEN she's trying to send them home with little baggies of snack food...NOT some cookies they made while the kids were at her house, NOT something from their garden....SNACK food that is readily available from many sources...the poor mama was probably sick of feeling like her friend doesn't think she feeds her kids enough food. TBH, depending upon the situation and how big a "you know what" I felt like that day, I would have sent it back...I would not take kindly to a "friend" of mine constantly judging me and acting like my kids weren't eating enough. THAT is the rude behavior in this situation.

I don't know what kind of kids play at your house...but I don't know many kids who don't eat like raptors when they are at someone elses house...like I said, my own kidlet is only 16 mos and she already gets the difference between my boring brown rice, beans, etc and aunties baked FRENCH FRIES...mmmmm! She GOBBLES food at other peoples homes...you would think the girl hadn't eaten in a week to see her shoving it in her mouth the way she does..when the truth is, she probably had a snack in the car on the way over!

I think you're way off base with your "abuse" comments....honestly, the OP already said that these people are not abusive, unkind, etc...that they are good and loving parents. I'd be willing to bet the farm they aren't "withholding food for punishment" - come on! Come ON!!

OKay, their kids gobble food while at other peoples homes...most kids I know do. They are crazy with toys which don't belong to them...yeah, it's like Christmas morning, all new toys to play with. And as far as the girl reaching over and grabbing food out of other peoples hands to eat....ONLY someone who was not abused as a kid would EVER see that as a sign of abuse. My mother WAS an abusive mother in both physical and emotional/mental ways...she DID have crazy punishments for us like withholding food and she WAS sometimes neglectful in order to teach us a lesson about something...let me tell you, the VERY last thing I would have EVER had the balls to do at ANY point, is something so rude as to grab food out of someone elses hand to eat it myself...if my stomach was so empty and hungry it was eating my liver, I would NEVER have risked the punishment it would have ment to do something so rude, which would have embarassed my mother so much.

People going around pointing fingers at people who are different and screaming "abuse!" is the reason why kids who are REALLY being abused slip past anyones notice...kids who are really in dire trouble, who are being abused at home and are truly fearful, are too busy trying to help their parents keep up the image that everything is okay at home to be going around snaching food out of other peoples hands. To me, the fact that the girl did that, leads me to believe that she has done it at home and that her parents are permissive enough that they haven't corrected the behavior...but then, that is their RIGHT....just like it's their right to have one parent stay at home, even though it means much less income. Just like it is their right not to stuff their children like pinatas, just like it is their RIGHT not to have tons of toys, tv, computer time, etc....THEIR right, because THEY are the parents.


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## amber913 (Jun 4, 2006)

I'm sorry if this is a repeat--i can't read all the posts.

If you think those kids are going hungry, then that's something to look into. Perhaps they're not, and they just want "your" food b/c it's different from what they get at home. But perhaps not. I'd seriously look into that--whether it's discussing this with a parent and helping them find ways to get food (angel food, food stamps, WIC, etc.) or sending some food home and seeing how they react--whatever. But if you have serious concern about the health of these kids, please do something about it.

Regarding the toys, i agree with many others that this isn't really a problem. I'd like to think that the sahp interacts with them and helps them create games and provides them with things to do. Does s/he? And i've found that my kids attack and destroy others' houses and we are completely overrun by toys at home--in other words, it's common for kids to get excited about others' toys. Just my two cents.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The kid who is particularly ravenous is probably going through a growth spurt. Or maybe she just has a faster metabolism. Really, we can read too much into things. If this is all she's seeing, there is no evidence of abuse here at all.

My dd is relatively thin though not skinny, and eats like a horse, and used to beg for food everywhere she went until I asked her to stop. But she begged for food from people enough where I suppose someone could have thought I was withholding food from her. And it seems like all the neighbor kids beg me for food. I keep a bowl of apples out and they all see them and want apples. Always. Begging for them, and they could eat two or three apples a piece, easily. It's like they've never seen an apple before. These kids are not denied food. They just see apples and want apples.


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## sapientia (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
I am so surprised to read all the posts. Nobody here sees a potential problem here?? I am concerned for the kids. It does sound like the kids are deprived to me. "they are ravenous for everything, including food" sounds like deprivation. THe food part would concern me the most (are they being abused? is food being withheld?) but their minds need stimulation too. Are they bored at home? What is an average day like? What do they do? Do they ever get punished and if so, what happens? Are you close enough to the kids that you could ask these last few questions?

I've had kids stay at my house and none of them act like this - we are usually so busy having fun and playing games that none of them ever ask for snacks, sometimes I worry that they didn't eat enough during "meals" when here that they might go home hungry, because kids do need snacks too, especially if they didn't eat a lot during mealtime.

I did read one of the posts where the parent returned a bag of pistachios and cheese sticks... seriously?!?! WTH is up with that?? Why did she have a problem with this , I can't for the life of me figure that one out, unless this child is being abused. We often send snacks and food and even little toys home with kids (they are relatives I'm referring to, but I can't really see the difference between friends either) and nobody EVER has a problem with it.. we probably do this because it was done for us when WE were kids... we would visit my grandma, and she'd always send us home with some of her healthy food from the garden, snacks or leftovers she prepared for us there... it was always much appreciated, a gracious gift, and we thought of her later at home and the next day because of it. Sharing your food with others is a GOOD THING, not something to be considered "rude" or implying some evil message that the parents aren't doing a good job!... its a gracious gift and you're supposed to be happy and accept it. If you don't like the gift given, you never return it and hurt their feelings!!

I think that was very rude of them to return the bag of treats you sent over - I understand they do not have computer or tv (I don't have an issue with) - but, do they have no manners too? That is unbelievable.

This sentence here really haunts me: "ONe of the children in particular though seems more ravenous, like she will actually take food out of someone elses hands to eat their food and will eat, eat, eat anything that is given and ask for more continouusly"

Are you sure she's not being abused? Is food ever withheld from her as a punishment? Does she have "rations" or is she allowed to eat as much as she wants at mealtimes?

IT sounds to me like she's being physically abused (doesn't necessarily have to be intentionally) by NOT getting enough to eat. OF course, it is also possible she has a medical disorder, and she IS getting enough to eat at home, but a medical condition is causing her to act this way. Someone mentioned an eating disorder, but perhaps even a nutritional deficiency of something that is not yet recognized. Like if she's deficient in something in her diet, her body may seek to get it by increasing her appetite, hoping the next thing she eats will fulfill her need! I hope she's been to the doctor for a checkup.

I think you should follow your intuitions on this one, and make sure there is nothing deeper going on that you are not aware of. ON a more positive note, perhaps if there were serious abuse going on, the mother would never let the child to your house to eat to her fill (which I sincerely hope she gets to!! - if this parent has given you ANY sort of food instructions or 'rationing' for the children, that would be setting off red flags for me.)

I don't have problem with limiting computer, tv, or toys, but let the child eat for god sake, WHAT is this mother's problem!?! Why in the world would she say "you can take this home we won't eat it" when the kids were just asking to eat it! The kids are old enough to be out of choking hazard risk (I can understand if they were toddlers, her having a problem with nuts), these are both healthy snacks, I just don't get it

I tend to agree with a lot of this. I used to send snacks home with visiting kids and never got a reaction like this. Grabbing food out of a person's hand to get more is either super bad behvioral issues (stemming from what?....) or just plain hunger. Either way something is up either internally with the child or at home.
I went hungry at home often and I can tell you no matter how hungry I was I never acted like that, nor have I seen other hungry kids act that way-and I grew up out in the woods and there was a lot of poverty. I've seen it as many people here have. I don't think it is a bad idea to address it in some fashion.

The child mentioned acts deprived. There is a difference between just being a kid with bad manners and acting out of deprivation. I think there's a line being crossed here.

I don't know that this is a judgment issue, but a concern.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
gaming system, drink soda, watch ...

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but soda, unlimited TV, and unlimited access to gaming systems are not just optional "lifestyle choices" but are actively harmful to the child. Tooth decay from the soda, increased risk for ADHD with unlimited screen time and exposure to violence from many video games.

Sure, my kid gets soda and TV, but in moderation. I could not live without a computer







, but I understand that others could.

I think boundaries are the way to go with the kids you mentioned - as others have said.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
we do not have a stereo system. we have a cheap little boom box.....big difference, still something to play music on. i can also play radio, CDs, and my MP3 player on my computer.

i live for walks with my MP3 player


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Okay...WHAT?

We have friends and relatives who, when we visit, will send us home with special treats from the garden or some special cookies they made..THAT is sharing food. The OP CLEARLY thinks these people aren't feeding their kids enough and is puzzled at the way they live and is probably sending off that vibe pretty strongly....THEN she's trying to send them home with little baggies of snack food...NOT some cookies they made while the kids were at her house, NOT something from their garden.

Ok great. She can put it to the test by baking a batch of cookies with the kids next time they visit and see how it goes over with the mom when she sends some home with them. If she has a problem with pistachios and cheese, I can't imagine how berserk she will go over cookies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 

I think you're way off base with your "abuse" comments....honestly, the OP already said that these people are not abusive, unkind, etc...that they are good and loving parents. I'd be willing to bet the farm they aren't "withholding food for punishment" - come on! Come ON!!


I sincerely hope you are correct and that intentional abuse is not even a factor. Coming from someone who has been there before, I trust your judgement on this and will assume that you are probably right. I can see the truth in a lot of what you are saying and appreciate your input. (You're right - I was never abused as a kid.) I do disagree with one thing, when you say someone who is being abused would never take food from someone else...

I think that true hunger may cause a child to do things they wouldn't normally do. I recall reading "A Child Called It" about 5 or 6 years ago... the guy who wrote it was abused as a child and this was his story, an autobiography and it was considered one of the worst abuse cases.. I remember reading of how he would steal food in school, until one day he got caught. Unfortunately the teacher told his mom on him (assuming he was just being a bad kid, and never suspected he was actually starving, of course). I do know what you mean, and agree that families like this try to keep up appearances to "fit in" and not stand out. But I wouldn't say that they are so good at it that there never are any signs... sooner or later someone's going to notice that something isn't right. But the fact that they may not recognize the sign for what it is (in this case assuming this was a behavorial issue and not an abuse issue) is worrisome.

You also contradict yourself a bit when you say "the OP already said that these people are not abusive, unkind, etc...that they are good and loving parents." because down below that you acknowledged that parents who really WERE abusers would "keep up the image that everything is okay at home" ... therefore: do you really think that if there was any kind of abuse going on, that the parents would EVER knowingly show that side of themselves to the OP? They would try to appear to be good and loving parents, right? Also it could be just one parent who is abusive - the other may not even be aware or may choose to "not see." (as was in the case of the mentioned book)

I probably placed too much emphasis on the abuse angle, as the possibility bothered me the most. I think it should be ruled out if possible. I still feel something is wrong.

Maybe unknowingly, there is something missing from their diet that is causing these insatiable cravings. It just sounds too bizarre to me to be considered "normal." If it happened once or twice, fine. No big deal. Kids are kids. But the OP has stated the kids spend a significant amount of time at her house - "whenever the children come to my house (which is a lot)" - and they ALWAYS ACT this way. Always. The girl's behavior especially seemed troubling to me.

It is thought that "pica" for example (a desire to eat non-food items like chalk, clay or dirt) may be caused by nutritional deficiencies (iron or zinc) that trigger specific cravings. I don't think its out of the question that the kids or the girl especially could be having these food cravings for specific physiological reasons. I don't think she's simply being a "bad" kid, a "normal" kid, or whatever.

This alone would give me pause for concern, but add to that the fact that her mother refused to accept a small bag of nuts and cheese for the kids to eat, and I'm quite troubled by it. Do you think maybe they are vegetarians and the fact that cheese was included, could have offended her?

It is the mothers attitude combined with the childrens behaviors that is most troubling, and started my mind wandering to the possibility of abuse, or at the very least, unintentional nutritional neglect.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think it's very normal for kids to go bonkers over other people's food and toys. I do talk with my own children about waiting until foods are offered in other homes, and asking before playing with others' stuff. Because I know what others mean about the unfamiliar stuff always being more interesting.









Now that my oldest goes to some longer playdates, I've let her know that if she's hungry and they're not offering, it's okay to ask the hostess for a snack.

I told her this after she spent the night at a friend's house and came home saying she got so hungry the next day (she got invited to stay the whole day, and said yes), but no one else was asking for food and nothing had been offered since breakfast. The hostess had said they could snack on leftover birthday cake but dd wasn't hungry for more of that after one slice.

Anyhow, some of our friends only have certain times when the kitchen is "open," and at other times food is not available, whereas our kitchen is always open. Just as this has necessitated me preparing my oldest when she's gone to visit in friends' homes for more than a 2-3 hours, so it has necessitated me learning that for kids who are used to a closed kitchen, our house can seem like a big free-for-all.

This hasn't really come up lately, but we used to have some friends who were rather strict as to what and when their children were allowed to eat, and it just seemed like every second they were in our home, they were telling me they were hungry again, or asking our oldest to show them what food we had in our pantry.

It even irritated our daughter. And when the mom shared how sometimes she'd have a special treat set aside for herself and it would disappear and no one would admit to eating it, I just knew that this family had a different mentality. It's never occurred to our kids to do anything like that, because we don't have "special treats" that aren't available to them. If they want something they see us eating, they ask and we share or get them their own.









But the way I worked it out when these kids came to visit, was that beforehand I'd prepare a snack-table and when they got there I'd just say, Here's what's available for whenever you get hungry. They would still sometimes ask dd to show them the pantry, but they gradually got used to just getting a snack from the table and going back to playing.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 

I don't feel I am close enough to say anything and don't know if I would anyway. It is really none of my business that these folks are choosing how to raise their family, but I guess I wondered why they are choosing it? Are there certain values inherent in living a monastic life as a child? Why wouldn't you at least earn some $$$ so you can fix enough food? they are all terribly thin.

Have you actually seen them not fix enough food? The thinnest person I know eats like a... well I was gonna say horse, but in all honesty she eats more then that. She's all ways been thin and always been a huge eater.

I really don't see any evidence they are doing anything other then living a simple life. Which is what we at least try to do in this house. I mean a lot of our stuff is old and "out of date" for no other reason then we believe that if it ain't broke don't fix it. We don't have a huge amount of toys. We have one TV, we have one car (no use having two since I don't drive), we don't spend $800 a month on food and eat just fine.

Some people, children included thrive on a minimalistic life. Not everyone needs all the newest gadgets to be happy.

Actually we've been half heartedly looking for a house to buy (we rent right now) but honestly have no interest in what is out on the market right now because they are all so... huge with a myraid of rooms that are unnessicary.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
LOL, that reminds me of my house growing up. My friends used to say, "You guys never have any food, you just have . . . ingredients."









I enjoyed reading your post btw. Interesting food for thought.

DD had a friend say that to her once.

DD's responce was "We have food there's just... some assembly required."


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

The dealbreaker in the OP's situation for me would be that the kids are coming over and eating their heads off.

When I was a kid, even a teenager really, and I was going to a friends house on a playdate or study session, Mom always made sure to send enough snacks for everyone along. She calls it omiyage.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:

Why wouldn't you at least earn some $$$ so you can fix enough food? they are all terribly thin
Just because a little kid eats a lot when they come to your house and they are skinny doesn't mean they don't get enough food at home. I was always super skinny and ate a lot. People always assumed I didn't eat very much and constantly told me I was anorexic and needed to eat more none of which was true. Those people constantly commenting on it took my confidence away. Just because the kids are skinny and eat a lot when they come over doesn't mean that they don't have enough food for their kids. You can't assume. Maybe they don't and maybe they do. Nothing is wrong with living without a lot of stuff. Stuff comes at a cost and I don't mean money.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

Okay, okay so I have reflected more closely all the reasons I have posted here on this thread. What I have come up with is this. I don't think the parents are abusers. From what I have experienced and witnessed I think they are super, super minimalists. It surprises me how minimal someone would choose to live. I am all for a simple life but am far, far away from this super minimal stuff.... no tv - okay, not many toys - hmmmm I don't know, no computer - not so much. Anyway, I think all of this is fine and I just have to respect their way of life and try not to judge too much. I find I admire this mom's calm way of being and she seems to be very grounded and thinks about what she says.

The food thing, well my way of doing things is to offer and supply a myriad of choices at meal times and to have food for grazing at different times during the day. My DH says I offer too much food and that is why we have a picky eater, and I say it is becasue my DH offers too many 'sweet' things and that has tainted my DD's ability to choose properly. Either way I think these folks don't offer choices and don't have a lot of food available at non meal times. This I don't understand and have sought the advice of other moms (you). I don't think food is withheld for punishment or anything of the sort. I think these kids are given food and are expected to eat it and then don't have food available to them until the next meal (or maybe snack).

As for the pistachios and cheese I have no idea. What happened was that I brought these items along in my dd's snack bag as I dropped her off for a playdate at this moms house - enough for all the children. They played at that house, walked 5 blocks to the park, played there, walked 5 blocks back and then had lunch. When I picked my dd up I was handed the items for return (I figured they ate other snacks maybe) but I noticed that the food was hidden from view with a newspaper. when the mom handed the items back to me the middle child grabbed the cheese and started eating it. When the mom handed me the rest the child motioned that she wanted it and the mom said, no you can have the one your eating. And when I said she could keep it for later if she wanted the mom said no. I don't understand this... maybe because the cheese was pasturized? it was organic....

I suppose that I can inquire a little more as to what the kids are allowed and not.... although I think if there were any dietary concerns I would know by now. Maybe it was just a wierd day, or a wierd interpretation. I put the ravenous behavior and the wierd snack issue together and felt like I needed others perspective to see clear....

I think I need to work on my own comfort boundaries with children at my house and I need to work on asking simple questions with out judgement, like what can your kids eat? and how much? valid questions that maybe I was afraid to ask because of my preconseeved notions.... that may be incorrect.

Thank you mama's for hanging in here with me.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

You mentioned previously that you don't feel really close to them. If they feel the same way then they may just prefer to not share non-seriouse food restrictions. Dairy is an iffy food item and one I personally wouldn't choose to offer as a snack since it can cause tummy trouble with out being inherently dangerous. DH can only eat so much dairy per day. Anymore and it causes GI problems.

Anyway, talking to the mom about it is probably a good idea.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

you know weight is not a good measure about nutrition.

instead seeing how healthy they look is the key. not the thin or fat part. i know a few thin people who eat like horses and some fat who eat v. little. genetics.

look at the quality of their skin, hair, nails.

i can also understand the mom's refusal to accept the food that is not being offered. i am trying to get my 7 year old to understand social manners. she should wait till she is offered, not ask for it immediately. of course with close family and friends, what she does does not matter. but its embarrasing when she wants more and more food. i could offer her the same apple at home that she refuses but she will eat her friends 5 mins later saying, i havent eatn an apple for weeks.







:

i am an anthropology major and i am fascinated with the exact thing you write about.

just because you dont understand it, just because its not your way - does that make their way 'bad' (i know you are not calling it bad).

you know we speak a lot thru nonverbal speech. by our body language and attitude. sending snacks over could be seen as handouts and an insult. that just because you send it, they should accept it.

i do want to add with everyone else that apart from grabbing food all the behaviour that stands out for you - my dd has done that. been ravenous at other's houses. said she didnt eat lunch, when she had forgotten. or considered pizza as snack and was awaiting lunch. i remember one time she got up late and so had lunch. i remember her telling my friend she hadnt eaten any breakfast.

i am glad you have posted here and decided to explore your reactions.

only you can decide and see if there is something there to report or is it a way of defining prejudice for you.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Re the cheese, I think maybe the mom is really sensitive to the idea that you may be trying to give her kids "charity" and wants to prove that she doesn't need your extra food. I have a friend whom I know to be struggling, and it's been a balancing act--I am trying to give her some things (which she needs) without her feeling embarrassed or like a charity case. I can tell it's hard for her. I could see her refusing things just for the sake of pride.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

We don't offer food at non-mealtimes either. A number of studies have shown that offering unlimited food at set snack- and mealtimes, and no food at non-mealtimes, tends to end up with the best nutritional results for children. Google "Ellyn Satter" for more information on this. That is completely different from not having enough food ever. My DS is a solid little linebacker, and we've always had set meal times and snack times. Now I'm not too much of a hard head about it because he's only 2 and can't tell time; if he wants lunch half an hour early, he can have it. Once he can tell time, though, I will ask him to wait and eat with the family.

ETA: The "no choices" thing is also recommended by Ellyn Satter, by the way. Obviously if the rest of the family is eating something that would be a choking hazard for a toddler, they should have something different; and there should always be at least one part of the meal that the children are likely to tolerate; but short-order cooking has been shown to lead to picky eating. There are worse things on earth than picky eating, for sure, so if you choose to offer choices, no food police will come to arrest you; but it sounds to me as though this mother is deliberately making an effort to prevent picky eating, and her choices in that regard are entirely within the mainstream-to-crunchy spectrum.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Either way I think these folks don't offer choices and don't have a lot of food available at non meal times. This I don't understand and have sought the advice of other moms (you).
this is the way I am. Letting kids graze all day seems like a horrible way to feed a child or eat for yourself to me. But to each his own. Grazing would never work in our house. I would feel like a neglectful mother. Never having real meals and just letting them snack all day. And honestly I think your dh has a point. When I put a meal on the table they need to eat it then. they get a small snack after school (no between meal snacks on their days off since we eat meals at more reasonably spaced times) and then supper and that is it. If I let them graze they would eat all day and mostly snacky crap. not nutritious stuff and they would certainly not eat their beans and rice at supper







but just because they don't ascribe to the same eating philosophy as your family does not mean they are treating their children poorly or starving them.

Also we do not eat cheese. It is not a food allergy thing but I think cheese is addictive and has a drug like effect on kids (its the casin....) I consider it a treat but not at all healthy. I would have sent it home with you. Also I doubt my kids would eat pistachios. Only one of them eats string cheese (well high end smoked string cheese from the co-op but not the stuff you get from kraft or whatever. they HATE it. after I gave it up and went back to it I realized I thought it was gross too.) maybe these just aren't foods they liked or valued and they just would not have eaten them. Maybe she made a special snack for the play date. I have a friend who always thought she was being hospitible by sending food when her kid came over to play. it drove me nuts. i had special snacks planned already and now her kid wanted to share what she had brought and we did not have time or it wasn't convinient etc and now I have a plate of cookies and the last thing we need is more junk food in the house....

honestly the more I think about you seem really focused with having a lot of things (be it food or toys) and giving your children a lot of things to choose from. Some people could see this as bad and unhealthy just as you see this family and their simple life as bad and potentially unhealthy.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
honestly the more I think about you seem really focused with having a lot of things (be it food or toys) and giving your children a lot of things to choose from. Some people could see this as bad and unhealthy just as you see this family and their simple life as bad and potentially unhealthy.

Right-- now, IMO, both your and your neighbor's lifestyles are well within the range of "perfectly fine." And it might also have something to do with the personalities of your children. Some children love to have lots of choices. Other children get overwhelmed by too many choices.


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## srs (Nov 8, 2007)

After going through all four pages, I think I read this a bit differently than most. OP, I get that the kids' behavior bothers you, and I think that's valid. When I was a kid, we had friends whose other friends lived and behaved in a way that was very similar to the kids you describe, and our friends were embarrassed when their friends came over and whined for sugary food and wanted to watch tv all the time. They didn't really want to play with them much because it wasn't fun to be around. And I'm sure that these kids were not abused or denied at all.

Another thing only mentioned by one other poster is that deprivation (not abuse, not even serious deprivation) can have long lasting psychological implications for the kids. I'm thinking of the poster who ate two candy bars a day once she left home because she could. Something similar happened to me. When I was young, my parents were wiped out financially by a plumbing problem, and after that my dad decided that we had to ration water to prevent further problems. Each kid was assigned particular days that we could bathe, and how long we could be in the shower. Not abuse, not deprivation, but a lifestyle choice dictated by my parents. Well, for a long time after I left home I took two long showers a day because I COULD. My sister did the same thing. We weren't abused, but we were deprived, and it did cause atypical behavoir.

Just some things to think about. I know MDC is a very pro-simple living community, and in my own life I have tried to simplify as well, and we limit sweet snacks, processed food, etc., but I'm amazed by the number of posters who seem to feel judged by the OP's honest reactions to someone else's lifestyle and its impact on her family.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

But pp, one short shower every other day and two long showers every day, are both within the realm of normal in our society. That's not really extreme. Extreme would be if you left the shower running all day!


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## srs (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
But pp, one short shower every other day and two long showers every day, are both within the realm of normal in our society. That's not really extreme. Extreme would be if you left the shower running all day!

Point taken. So where does this leave the little girl who takes food from others? Is that on the "normal" spectrum?

OP, I forgot to add, I assume this family bothers you because their kids' behavior is affecting you in a negative way. Probably it's more about the behavior than the lifestyle.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
I did read one of the posts where the parent returned a bag of pistachios and cheese sticks... seriously?!?! WTH is up with that?? Why did she have a problem with this , I can't for the life of me figure that one out, unless this child is being abused.

I think it's a giant leap from "they returned a bag of snacks" to "these kids are being abused." In my case, my dd has severe food allergies--we don't allow nuts in the house, and I probably wouldn't allow her to eat cheese that had been in a bag with the nuts--who knows if the mom transferred residue to the wrappers of the cheese sticks which could then get on hands or in mouths. You have no way of knowing if the parents are on special diets or have allergies and simply don't like having outside food in the home. Perhaps the mom felt judged by the OP (for reasons I don't fully understand, the OP seems to be really struggling with her friends' lifestyle choices--maybe the other mom was picking up on that), and returned the food for that reason. Perhaps her kids had gorged on cheese and nuts the day before and she simply wanted them to eat something different that day.

My point is: because of dd's allergies, we turn down food ALL. THE. TIME. Even food that someone has made "allergen-free," because they don't know her allergies like we do, we don't know what kind of cross-contamination might be going on in their kitchen, etc. With people we know, we of course tell them about dd's allergies, but you know what? Sometimes it's just easier to turn down that lollipop than to spend ten minutes explaining and poring over the label. You have no idea why the mom turned down the food. That doesn't mean she's abusing her kids.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

Just wanted to say that I think the OP is handling this thread really well.... I might feel defensive by the amount of debate that has come come from it...


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srs* 
Point taken. So where does this leave the little girl who takes food from others? Is that on the "normal" spectrum?

OP, I forgot to add, I assume this family bothers you because their kids' behavior is affecting you in a negative way. Probably it's more about the behavior than the lifestyle.

Your second paragraph. It's definitely rude. OTOH, snatching things from other people (food or otherwise) is not a terribly unusual discipline problem.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Did the OP tell us how old these kids are? Maybe I missed it. I think that would help determine if snatching food from someone else's hand is unusual or not? I would think that for a pre-teen/teen, it's pretty unusual, but I guess i don't really know, and that for a 4-6 year old, maybe not so much? Certainly below 4 years it's to be expected to some extent.


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
Okay, so I mentioned in another thread of a family I know who chooses to live very differently than I. I am envious sometimes and sometimes furious. I don't know why I have such visceral reaction and so maybe you smart ladies can liberate me from my narrow thinking.

Okay, I thought I'd give you my perspective.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
This family (3 children ages 11, 9 & 5) have one parent work and have almost no $. The sahp could work and is educated (quit a 6 figure job to stay at home), but stays at home instead (the children are all in school). They have no computer, no tv, some toys (mostly books), one car (they bike a lot), one tele, and etc.

We have only one child, but I guess from someone else's perspective, a lot of this could fit us. We could be considered "poor" for contemporary US standards. But when I think about how much "stuff" we have and how great our ratty apartment is compared to what would be considered "poor" in other societies, I really don't think that we are bad off at all. I don't *really* work (according to my culture's standards), and I could probably earn more than my partner right now as I have degrees and a pimpin' resume. I'm so thankful that I don't have to have a money job right now, though. We homeschool, so that's part of why I'm "not working", but I can definitely see the value of having a SAHP when the kids are in school.

We also choose to remain a one car family (even though it's a major pain at times), and honestly, I would prefer us to be a zero car family (using less fuel, helping the environment, getting exercise). I also can understand not wanting a phone---the year I went without a conventional phone (I had an old school pager and lived less than a quarter block from a pay phone) was honestly a life changing experience; my relationships with people became more genuine, and I really feel like I lived more in the moment. We just got rid of our cells and got a house phone, and it's really no big deal---it makes us communicate better.

I'd like to minimize our daughter's toys for many reasons, too: not feeding into unnecessary materialism, encouraging her to use her imagination; we would prefer a few quality toys that get a lot of play rather than a room crammed with stuff that she's too overwhelmed to play with. Ditto with TV. We are not TV-free right now, but we were for the first 3-4 yrs, and I really do think that it's better for everyone to kill their TV.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I guess the biggest part that makes me furious is that whenever the children come to my house (which is a lot) they are ravenous for everything, including food. I don't think the parents actually neglect them nutritionally, but I think they could be a little more generous in thier food preperations. It is actually difficult being their friend sometimes as I have to really kind of corral them in their frenzy to touch every toy and eat every thing.

We are vegetarian and all quite slender, but healthy. We don't do a lot of packaged or really sweet snacks, but we still have 3 meals plus snacks as desired. I know kids often go to other people's houses and "swarm" everything just because it's different. My DD isn't like this so much, but my sister's kids (who definitely get enough to eat and have tons of toys) do this every time they come over---it's like a hive mind! If DD came over and you gave her snacks and had new, different toys (like we don't do flashy buzzy stuff), she might get hyper and swarm you. Doesn't mean she doesn't have everything she needs at home.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I get that people choose to stay at home to raise their children. I am one of these. We are a one income household and I totally understand why people make this choice. I also get how much it would totally suck to have to work outside the home for so many hours that you missed out on your children's lives. But isn't there a middle ground? And just because you are choosing a one income household does that mean you have to choose almost nothing for your kids?

I don't feel I am close enough to say anything and don't know if I would anyway. It is really none of my business that these folks are choosing how to raise their family, but I guess I wondered why they are choosing it? Are there certain values inherent in living a monastic life as a child? Why wouldn't you at least earn some $$$ so you can fix enough food? they are all terribly thin.

I just don't get it.

I think that there's an inherent value in a "monastic" life for everyone. If we were all monks, we'd all be peaceful and easing our world's suffering, right?







If the kids' nutritional needs are met, then it's okay for them to be skinny. You might want to consider World Health Organization standards and not US doctor standards. US kids are on average heftier than previous generations and other countries! Plenty of skinny people in the world that do just fine. In fact, I remember reading a correlation between people who are a bit thin and don't eat every second that they want to living longer *shrug*

So my point is that I could see how someone else might not understand our family's choices and be concerned about how we're "choosing to live without much of anything"







but we're truly happy and healthy and doing what's right for us. As long as the kids are getting what they need to keep growing physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, then the parents are doing their job


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Right-- now, IMO, both your and your neighbor's lifestyles are well within the range of "perfectly fine." And it might also have something to do with the personalities of your children. Some children love to have lots of choices. Other children get overwhelmed by too many choices.


I just want to be very clear that I totally agree. Whatever you want to do with your family and whatever works for you is just fine. I was just pointing out that she (as well as others) may be just as concerned about your life style and how it effects your children. to each his own. there are all kinds of normal and all kinds of crazy and one mans normal is another mans crazy and we all come out in the wash.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srs* 
Point taken. So where does this leave the little girl who takes food from others? Is that on the "normal" spectrum?
.


yes, especially depending on her age. My kids will snatch food from each other if one of them has the treat food, for example when we had meat every now and then we would have steak but it would be limited to a small portion for each person - well within healthy guidelines for portion size but small by american standards - they could have all the bread and salad and other veggies they wanted but only a small portion of meat. so if one of them got up or turned their head too long my oldest would steal a peice of meat or two off her sisters plate. She gets plenty to eat but she is greedy. always has been. it is definitely a behavior issue though and not a eating issue.

She was also the one who would gravitate to any screen in her friends house because I limited her screen time (she still got a couple hours a day or more. by no means deprived or even limited by most standards). She is just like that. she did grow out of it after consistantly working on it for years. Or maybe being a teenager has just shamed her out of it. whatever i am glad she stopped.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I see a lot of adults who have very "controlled" diets not realizing that children need more than they do. There is also a very big difference between fasting and starving and when you are a child who is not choosing an austere and sometimes deprived (mostly of protein and fat content) diet it is going to feel more like starving than eating healthy. I was raised in an austere household and although the adults found it healthy and good I did not. I did not enjoy my childhood in a way that I could have and I do not, as an adult, think that the choices my parents made were right for me. I really feel for kids when their parents have such a narrow outlook that their needs as individuals are neglected. I say no to my children and I don't feel the need to make sure they have everything their friends do but I do listen to them instead of being blinded by my own choices.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't know about deprivation, everyone's deprived of something, you know?

But I do think that within those age ranges (11, 9 & 5), snatching food out of another person's hand is DEFINITELY inappropriate. I don't know if I would be brave enough to bring it up to the mom, but I liked the pp's suggestion about broaching the snack issue, it seemed very diplomatic.

Also, kind of OT, but I would judge someone if they had a six-figure income potential and were choosing to use charity or WIC so they could stay home with their school-aged kids. Sorry, but I just can't condone that.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

You know... speaking of deprivation... plenty of kids are "Deprived" of their parents because their parents work all the time or whatever. My friend was, for sure.... and not in the "well, yeah, she went to daycare" way, but in the "she was enrolled in classes or at the babysitter's for every waking moment so her parents didn't have to bother with her" way. And she knows it... and we all knew it... and she had TONS of toys and things, but was pretty much an orphan. Her parents seriously avoided seeing her







I know there's lots of parents out there earning just so they can send their kids to things that they want to go to and have toys that they want to have, and I respect that, but this was not the case with this girl. I think deprivation can be a matter of perspective, sometimes.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I haven't read the replies.

My kids go bonkers at other people's houses for their food and toys because it's different than what we have at home. It makes ME crazy, and I've talked with them about not doing it, but they get so excited they can't help it. And we live a relatively privileged, middle class life. They are certainly not deprived in any sense.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
You know... speaking of deprivation... plenty of kids are "Deprived" of their parents because their parents work all the time or whatever. My friend was, for sure.... and not in the "well, yeah, she went to daycare" way, but in the "she was enrolled in classes or at the babysitter's for every waking moment so her parents didn't have to bother with her" way. And she knows it... and we all knew it... and she had TONS of toys and things, but was pretty much an orphan. Her parents seriously avoided seeing her







I know there's lots of parents out there earning just so they can send their kids to things that they want to go to and have toys that they want to have, and I respect that, but this was not the case with this girl. I think deprivation can be a matter of perspective, sometimes.











It is like the child is another accessory or thing-- to shop for, organize for, but there is really no interest in the child as a person who needs to have a relationship with their parent









I see this with the people who think that they need to have kids, because that is just the next thing that they need to do after getting married, buying the house, etc. But they don't really want to have a relationship with a child.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

It's not just the kids in our family who want what's being served at other people's houses-DH and I sometimes find ourselves like this. We eat a (mostly) tf/natural diet, but not extreme by anyone's standards. But sometimes we go to my in-laws, and there is a big casserole of mac and cheese and brownies....we all want it, even if we've eaten.

It's the food, but it's also not the food. It's the warmth, the environment, the comforting feelings--it's all there in the casserole! Maybe, OP, there's something nurturing about you and your home that allows these kids to seek food from you? Just a thought.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I grew up even more simply than the family described in the OP. No car at all, no computer, no radio, few toys but many books, almost all home-made food, very healthy and mostly vegan (I had multiple food allergies).

Every time I stayed with other people, my mom told me later on how they were shocked by what I ate, that I was always hungry and would eat everything offered. There was never any food limiting at home. We had set mealtimes and set snacktimes and not many choices but I enjoyed what my mother cooked and never had limits on food other than the times and choices. I just like food!

I didn't play with a lot of toys. I read a lot. I played the piano and sang and occasionally listened to records. I took care of my pets. I made forts with umbrellas and sheets and played pretend games. I spent half my childhood in the backyard and park. My parents played lots of games with me. I was never bored.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

Hmmm, I grew up with some toys but LOTS of books, no TV, no computer (until high school), etc. I never noticed a lack of anything. I was a bookworm, and so the books made great "toys." We also did board games together. Card games too.

I still don't own a TV, and don't think I'm missing anything. I do have a computer, but use it mainly at night.

My child will also have no TV, some toys - mainly books.







I don't see the big deal in that. I also think the grabbing food/toys could be just because that something is a "new" thing to them. If they're genuinely hungry due to not enough food - that's a problem. But, maybe it's just a matter of seeing/having something new.

I don't even consider what I do as "simple" living or as living with not very much of anything. I see it as normal for me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
when the mom handed the items back to me the middle child grabbed the cheese and started eating it. When the mom handed me the rest the child motioned that she wanted it and the mom said, no you can have the one your eating. And when I said she could keep it for later if she wanted the mom said no. I don't understand this...

If my child grabbed something and started eating it, I wouldn't let them keep it. I have no desire to encourage that kind of behaviour, and I think letting her keep it encourages that. Maybe this is how they attempt to curb some of the grabbiness?

DS1 had a friend over for dinner tonight. I've known this boy since he was about 9. I still can't believe the way he eats. He's really skinny and he has always outeaten ds1 and all his other friends. When I first met him, he was at ds1's birthday party. This was a very conventional party, with hot dogs, chips, cake, etc. The boy ate 3 hot dogs, a massive pile of chips, cheesies and pretzels and asked for a _third_ piece of cake. One of his friends made a joke about him starving himself all day to leave room for cake, and he said he'd had a big snack before he came over (can't remember what the snack was, but it was substantial). There's nothing wrong at his house. He's not starving. He just has a very, very fast metabolism. He would never grab something, as he also has exceptionally good manners, but he does eat a _lot_ and has for as long as I've known him. He's now about 6' or 6'1", and still very skinny...and still eating a ton.

ETA: If I'm understanding correctly, the child who grabs a lot is 9? That does seem a bit old for this, but there are all kinds of things that contribute to behaviour like that. I wonder if it might be a new development, or something.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't get why people choose to live like that either. I dont understand this trend of deprivation.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I get where you are coming from. Even when you like people, you can still be frustrated with them, and the food thing does seem genuinely disturbing.

I would work to get past any resentment (legit or not!) I had about their lifestyle and then if/when I felt like I could come at it from "pure" or completely benevolent place, I'd just straight out ask the parents if they need help getting more food. Mention Angel Food pantry, that kind of thing. They might not need it. They might be able to feed their kids more/bend a bit in what they are offering/it might not make a difference, their kids might just crave the novelty of what you're offering. But I do know that sometimes when you're inside a situation you can't really SEE what is going on. They might think--"I just offered the kids a bowl of brown rice before we left home, therefore, they cannot be hungry." But hearing that from your perspective it seems like the kids are hungry might be an eye-opener for them.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't get why people choose to live like that either. I dont understand this trend of deprivation.


Woud you say that Amish children are deprived, or even think about children in other countries that may not have alot of posessions, but aren't considered poor?

I had a friend once that lived on a sail boat, they definitely didn't have alot but he certainly wasn't deprived. He went places most kids only read about in books. Both parents had amazing educations but they decided to "give it all up" so they could go and do what they wanted. So there wasn't alot of income. When they needed money they found a place to dock and his dad would work for a couple of months and then they'd go on to another place untill they needed more money. This kid was completely homeschooled. He didn't have many toys, very few in fact, he barely knew what a video game was. They didn't eat much meat and they were mostly vegetarians when they were at sea. If you want to say depived....this family did not have much at all. But that kid loved the way he lived.....I was so jealous he got to do everyting he did.

I don't think that not having "stuff" makes a person deprived. I think living simply actually makes you more wealthy in ways that matter more than worldly possessions.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't get why people choose to live like that either. I dont understand this trend of deprivation.

Living simply is not living in deprivation.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Living simply is not living in deprivation.

Yes. Exactly.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
Woud you say that Amish children are deprived, or even think about children in other countries that may not have alot of posessions, but aren't considered poor?

I had a friend once that lived on a sail boat, they definitely didn't have alot but he certainly wasn't deprived. He went places most kids only read about in books. Both parents had amazing educations but they decided to "give it all up" so they could go and do what they wanted. So there wasn't alot of income. When they needed money they found a place to dock and his dad would work for a couple of months and then they'd go on to another place untill they needed more money. This kid was completely homeschooled. He didn't have many toys, very few in fact, he barely knew what a video game was. They didn't eat much meat and they were mostly vegetarians when they were at sea. If you want to say depived....this family did not have much at all. But that kid loved the way he lived.....I was so jealous he got to do everyting he did.

I don't think that not having "stuff" makes a person deprived. I think living simply actually makes you more wealthy in ways that matter more than worldly possessions.

Love that story. I watched a thing on PBS recently about a family that lived like that. SO inspiring!


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I haven't read all the pages/replies but wanted to post.

First, in regards to the kiddo who gobbles and takes food from the other kids. I'd be more inclined to think there was a potential health issue than a lack of food issue. I've known a couple people over the years who have gut issues that will go nuts around things like nuts and bagels. I've seen it in young children and in mature (and theoretically self controlled) adults. Seeing as you mentioned things like bagels I'm guessing their enthusiasm is seriously just a novelty thing. We routinely have bagels and english muffins. When my friend comes over with her kids that's what they go for. They could tear through my entire pantry within minutes. I KNOW they have similar foods at their house. Differences in prep., display, toppings etc. can make a huge difference. Think of it as marketing. There is a huge difference in your reaction to a poorly lit display case with an item in as opposed to a brightly lit and well decorated and arranged display case with the same item in it yk?

In regards to the thinness. Be gentle with the judgments there. I was a skinny kid and it was hurtful to have that always be a "concern". I was healthy, active, and happy. I just don't gain weight easily. I still don't as an adult. My kids are tiny as well. Genetics ya' know? There is a difference in a healthy skinny and an unhealthy skinny/thin. From the sounds of it these kids are just another variation of the human body. Skinny/thin does not always equal not getting enough to eat.

Secondly, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier. You mentioned that you operate from wanting more due to your upbringing. I totally understand that as I go back and forth with that at times. You can't let that cloud your perception though. It's just a breeding ground for unfair judgement IMO. We live very modest. One tv (only movie access), my girls share all their toys (so technically only have one kids worth if that), we prioritize books and reading and music over toys, live in a tiny place (under 600 sq ft), one car etc. They go nuts at others homes and when others come to our home those kids go nuts over what my kiddos have. I have a friend who flat out told me last night she'd go nuts living my lifestyle and that sometimes when I mention random things it bugs her.







I tend to think the same about her lifestyle.







I've noticed that for those who go with less than average it's easy to get distracted/swept up in the extras. Even as an adult I tend to go into kid mode when we visit because it is so different. Do I prefer our set up? You bet ya! I KNOW a lot of times the food will be unfilling for me or make me feel gross and the entertainment will bore me or give me a headache etc. but I still go into the "gimme" mode because it is different.









Different strokes for different folks.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
Woud you say that Amish children are deprived, or even think about children in other countries that may not have alot of posessions, but aren't considered poor?

I had a friend once that lived on a sail boat, they definitely didn't have alot but he certainly wasn't deprived. He went places most kids only read about in books. Both parents had amazing educations but they decided to "give it all up" so they could go and do what they wanted. So there wasn't alot of income. When they needed money they found a place to dock and his dad would work for a couple of months and then they'd go on to another place untill they needed more money. This kid was completely homeschooled. He didn't have many toys, very few in fact, he barely knew what a video game was. They didn't eat much meat and they were mostly vegetarians when they were at sea. If you want to say depived....this family did not have much at all. But that kid loved the way he lived.....I was so jealous he got to do everyting he did.

I don't think that not having "stuff" makes a person deprived. I think living simply actually makes you more wealthy in ways that matter more than worldly possessions.

this family is not amish nor do they live on a sailboat. they live in regular society and should be able to enjoy common things that the other children of society get to enjoy. im not saying that you need to have the very best toys and clothes but you gotta have SOME.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Living simply is not living in deprivation.

no it isnt. the situation described by the op is a little more extreme than simple IMO. I have no problem with "simple" but sometimes when parents cant afford things they make themselves feel better by claiming "simplicity".


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I don't get why people choose to live like that either. I dont understand this trend of deprivation.

I think it's shocking that we are so glutted with stuff in the Western world that we think having one car, no television, and not eating lots of treats or processed food is "deprivation." As Americans, we are among the most overfed, overstimulated, wasteful people on the planet.

I actually saw nothing in the OP to indicate that the kids are in any way deprived--they don't have a ton of toys or their own computer. Horrors! The food issue MAY be an issue, but it may have nothing to do with "simplicity", but more a particular problem with the particular child who's doing it.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I think it's shocking that we are so glutted with stuff in the Western world that we think having one car, no television, and not eating lots of treats or processed food is "deprivation." As Americans, we are among the most overfed, overstimulated, wasteful people on the planet.

I actually saw nothing in the OP to indicate that the kids are in any way deprived--they don't have a ton of toys or their own computer. Horrors! The food issue MAY be an issue, but it may have nothing to do with "simplicity", but more a particular problem with the particular child who's doing it.

Well said.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I think it's shocking that we are so glutted with stuff in the Western world that we think having one car, no television, and not eating lots of treats or processed food is "deprivation." As Americans, we are among the most overfed, overstimulated, wasteful people on the planet.

I actually saw nothing in the OP to indicate that the kids are in any way deprived--they don't have a ton of toys or their own computer. Horrors! The food issue MAY be an issue, but it may have nothing to do with "simplicity", but more a particular problem with the particular child who's doing it.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I am always amazed about the strong feelings people have about food. I'm part of a pretty large natural parenting group with people on all ends of the food spectrum. One of our very first meetings, we had a nutrition topic... this was topic caused more heated debate than any other.. including vaccines! There is such a wide variety of views on healthy eating, and a LOT of different reasons for eating a certain way. And it is very hard to eat differently than the mainstream and to try to instill healthy eating habits in your kids.

Some people are very passionate about consuming only or primarily raw milk. My kids have had sensitivities/allergies to dairy, but their issues are much less with raw milk products. I'm not very strict about it when we're out and about... BUT, I have been thinking about trying to eliminate pasteurized dairy more in the hopes it will help ds1's eczema without him having to completely cut out all diary. Some kids can handle a bit of regular dairy, but not a lot. So, I can understand saying "you've had one, now we're going to return the rest." I have tried to be polite and not say anything to the giver but just make the food disappear later.

I find it so hard to find that moderation. We have a history of diabetes in our family, and I really want to prevent it in my kids. At the same time, I don't want my kids feeling so deprived that they binge on junk as soon as they're grown and on their own. I also have a child who has food sensitivities to foods that are in most processed foods. So, I have to constantly monitor that and tell people (like the ILs) what he can and can't have over and over again.

So, just because you don't understand the family's attitudes towards food doesn't mean they don't have some good reasons behind them... even if they're not your reasons. How would you like it if someone said your dcs will probably end up obese with Diabetes because you offer so much food and let them eat whatever they want all day long? (I'm not saying this... just playing devil's advocate.)


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I think a lot of people (including my brother and sil) probably think we're absolutely insane for having made the lifestyle choices we have.

We live in a small place as we slowly work to improve it and clear the land etc, we have three kids, and I am a journalist. My income fluctuates- I have two hourly days a week that I work for the local paper- the rest of our income is freelance/article whatever we can manage. There are tight months (this is one of them!) when we put off a bill for a couple weeks, but they aren't the majority of the time. My husband is a SAHD- legally in the US from Canada, but still waiting to be able to legally work. Even when he can work, unless he finds something that will make it worth paying for childcare AND the commute- we're probably better off with his being home with the kids.

I'm sure people think I've starved my daughter- almost 8, and almost 50 lbs- but the reality is that what she wants to eat is 'junk'. We have a great variety of food at home, and the fridge and cupboards are always open to her... but if we go visit someone with chicken nuggets-I'm sure they'd swear she hadn't eaten in a year.

Same nearly 8 year old's room? It's pretty barren. She decided a few weeks ago that she no longer wanted a bed, and requested a hammock- so we got one for her and put it up. Most of the furniture came out of her room, most of the toys, most everything, in fact- because it wasn't being played with, and she was unable to organize herself and herthoughts with the chaos around her. We purposefully minimized/simplified her space until it worked for her, but I'm sure people on the outside looking in would assume that we don't buy her toys/clothes/extras.

We also have a 1 year old and a newborn. They don't have a lot of 'stuff'. For DS 1's first birthday, he received one gift- a set of blocks everyone in the family helped to make- his grandfather cut them, and everyone else in the family sanded them, and finished them for him. Again, people thought that was deprivation, but he plays with them constantly.

We try to choose what does fit in our family, in our home, and in our budget.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Are they actually hungry or do you just have snacks that they don't get at their house. It may be simply you have different kinds of food and kids react crazy to that.
my kids do this when they go to my friends house. She has so many sugar filled sweets and convenience goodies that they want it all. She knows me well so she knows I feed them but we don't have "those" kinds of snacks so my kids go ape. Other than that they just has different priorities I see nothing strange about it.

Right. I don't tend to keep a lot of the sugary snacks around, but my neighbor across the street has a cabinet full of them in the garage that's basically "open" for any kids who are playing there to take from.

It's sometimes a struggle to keep my 3-year-old from gobbling down 4 packages of HFCS-loaded treats, especially since her kids are eating them pretty constantly and give him them when I'm not looking.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
no it isnt. the situation described by the op is a little more extreme than simple IMO. I have no problem with "simple" but sometimes when parents cant afford things they make themselves feel better by claiming "simplicity".

This is what the OP described:

"They have no computer, no tv, some toys (mostly books), one car (they bike a lot), one tele, and etc."

I don't see that as being particularly extreme. I wish we could go no-TV, but my husband likes his football too much. We have gone no-cable.

We have one car, one tv, mostly books, and bikes for all of us. The only thing I see as problematic is the no-computer, particularly if the kids are public schooled. At least around here, the public schools kind of expect that all kids have a computer and Internet connection at home







which isn't that great an expectation since our district also includes part of a rather poor, urban area.


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## KayTeeJay (Jul 22, 2008)

Apologies if this has been discussed (I'm stealth posting from work, lol!), but in this case, I would wonder what the home environment is like. Is living this simply a choice or a necessity? If the parents are happy with the life they've chosen and are consciously passing on their simple-living-values to the kids, I think that would/does make for much happier kids than parents that are stressed and arguing about a lack of disposable income.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
this family is not amish nor do they live on a sailboat. they live in regular society and should be able to enjoy common things that the other children of society get to enjoy. im not saying that you need to have the very best toys and clothes but you gotta have SOME.

Yeah! Let's all conform to mainstream society!

We live simply because we want to, not because we're poor or in a unique living situation. Maybe not to the extent as the family in the OP but still.

You don't _need_ whole lot of toys, or TV's, or fancy high end computer, or a big house, or two cars, or a whole lot of other things that society deems important.

The even the family doesn't seem extreme to be honest. We have one car and either walk or take the bus many places. Heck, a portion of the grocery shopping is done by me on foot if I can do it then why shouldn't I? We could very easly get rid of the TV and no one would notice, most of the toys we have are books, we are big on reading.

Now if we take the kids opinions on the matter... DS is happy as long as he gets yums and snuggles. DD would have us living in the middle of nowhere completely off the grid.

We get to enjoy a lot of what many kids in our area don't. We go camping, DD found out at the begining of the school year only one other student in her class as been camping. Everyone else goes to Europe or Disneyland in the summer and stays in hotels. _could_ do that but chose not to. We sit around at least twice a month and play board games, this even usually consists of at least one 5 - 10 minutes session of laughing so hard the game stops until we get it under control. We read books together, each person taking their time to read. We got through three harry potter books and a couple of Tamora Pierce books that way.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

As far as toys go, most kids have the most fun with plain cardboard boxes, or with blankets suspended between two chairs. Kids don't need things marketed as toys to have toys.

More than one car is a luxury we've gotten used to in our society. It would be nice if we had better public transportation. People used to manage very well with fewer cars. Sadly, public transportation isn't an option where I live. But we get a lot of places by biking and walking, and chose where we live because we're able to do that.

Books are free from the library.

Kids need very very little as far as material goods. They need food, but they don't need out of season tropical fruit, and being excited because of some (bananas, wasn't it?) doesn't mean they are "deprived".


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I think it's shocking that we are so glutted with stuff in the Western world that we think having one car, no television, and not eating lots of treats or processed food is "deprivation." As Americans, we are among the most overfed, overstimulated, wasteful people on the planet.

I actually saw nothing in the OP to indicate that the kids are in any way deprived--they don't have a ton of toys or their own computer. Horrors! The food issue MAY be an issue, but it may have nothing to do with "simplicity", but more a particular problem with the particular child who's doing it.

I dont think any of those things are deprivation. that is pretty much our lifestyle and we are well off. im just not a fan of having no toys, no tv, nothing to do, and no food. call me crazy.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

okay i guess i figure that if the op was concerned it has to be somewhat extreme? i mean if the kids have some toys but not an outrageous amount, thats fine in my book. no tv is weird to me, but to each their own. if the kids have not much food that is bothersome to me. i commented like I did based on mothers that I know personally that claim simplicity and they actually cannot afford basic necessities. I guess i just read too much into it? anyway i didnt mean to offend. i really have no problem with a simple and basic lifestyle.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

The only way you can ever truly have nothing to do is if you have no imagination and you're alone.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I dont think any of those things are deprivation. that is pretty much our lifestyle and we are well off. im just not a fan of having no toys, no tv, nothing to do, and no food. call me crazy.

I really don't see how having no tv and not a lot of toys means you have "nothing to do". Can you go for a hike? Build a fort out of couch cushions? Go to the playground? Go to the local library? Play tag? Build a robot out of an old cardboard box? Play hide and seek? Play chef or restaurant using pots and pans from the kitchen? Teach the dog how to fetch a ball? Climb a tree? Read a book? Write your own book? Choreograph a dance? You don't need to be hyper-scheduled and have a house full of commercial toys to be a busy, active, imaginative kid.

I was one of those kids who had tons and tons of toys, but my most memorable childhood play experiences involve doing things that didn't involve anything that came from the toy store: building a whole "town" for potato bugs in my background, using plants, rocks, sticks, and dirt; playing "desert island with my friend Melissa--we would go into the woods behind her house and pretend we were stranded and had to make everything we needed out of what we found in nature; making a homemade croquet set out of cans, sticks, and straws, with oranges for balls; working with my best friend to design and play our own board game. I know that I had pretty much every "hot" toy on the market, but I couldn't for the life of me tell you what most of those things were now--they were just more stuff. (My books, on the other hand, I remember vividly--but all you need for that is a good local or school library.)

Obviously, "no food" is a real problem. But simply, whole food, rather than lots of packages or boxes? That is NOT a problem and it is certainly not deprivation. Even the simplest American diet is far more rich, varied, nutritious, and plentiful than what most of the world's children survive on. The OP indicates that there MIGHT be an issue with food--but without more information, and since the "problem" seems limited to one child, there is simply not enough information to go on.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I really don't see how having no tv and not a lot of toys means you have "nothing to do". Can you go for a hike? Build a fort out of couch cushions? Go to the playground? Go to the local library? Play tag? Build a robot out of an old cardboard box? Play hide and seek? Play chef or restaurant using pots and pans from the kitchen? Teach the dog how to fetch a ball? Climb a tree? Read a book? Write your own book? Choreograph a dance? You don't need to be hyper-scheduled and have a house full of commercial toys to be a busy, active, imaginative kid.

I was one of those kids who had tons and tons of toys, but my most memorable childhood play experiences involve doing things that didn't involve anything that came from the toy store: building a whole "town" for potato bugs in my background, using plants, rocks, sticks, and dirt; playing "desert island with my friend Melissa--we would go into the woods behind her house and pretend we were stranded and had to make everything we needed out of what we found in nature; making a homemade croquet set out of cans, sticks, and straws, with oranges for balls; working with my best friend to design and play our own board game. I know that I had pretty much every "hot" toy on the market, but I couldn't for the life of me tell you what most of those things were now--they were just more stuff. (My books, on the other hand, I remember vividly--but all you need for that is a good local or school library.)

Obviously, "no food" is a real problem. But simply, whole food, rather than lots of packages or boxes? That is NOT a problem and it is certainly not deprivation. Even the simplest American diet is far more rich, varied, nutritious, and plentiful than what most of the world's children survive on. The OP indicates that there MIGHT be an issue with food--but without more information, and since the "problem" seems limited to one child, there is simply not enough information to go on.

Ugh. are you even reading my posts or what? i said NO toys is not okay by me. not NOT having TONS of toys. I never said that not having packaged foods was bad. we do not eat premade, preserved, artificial or sugary anything. i am a firm believer in whole healthy food. but the op made it sound like the children were starving.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
Ugh. are you even reading my posts or what? i said NO toys is not okay by me. not NOT having TONS of toys. I never said that not having packaged foods was bad. we do not eat premade, preserved, artificial or sugary anything. i am a firm believer in whole healthy food. but the op made it sound like the children were starving.

Actually the OP said "not at lot of toys" (which implies that they have some) and that the kids eat a ton at her house. We have no idea how much they eat at their own house, and there really isn't any evidence in what the OP said that the kids are starving. Every child I know gets crazy for food at other people's houses. I don't know why, but that doesn't seem like a kid thing.

Also, "no toys, no TV" doesn't mean nothing to do, lol. I can't imagine what you'd have to do for kids to have nothing to do... White padded room maybe?


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## MommyKelly (Jun 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The only way you can ever truly have nothing to do is if you have no imagination and you're alone.











I am glad I am not your neighbor. We have 1 car (a old 15 pass van), My kids do not watch TV, we do not eat fast food, or other "junk". They eat 3 meals a day and 2 snacks. They do not just rummage and eat whatever they want when they want. I grew up on Twinkies, and eating however much of whatever I wanted. I am paying for it in my 30's. Since I was never taught portion control, or any good eating habits, and struggle with my weight. I do not want that for my kids. Our 3 yo we have custody of from a family member was over 50 lbs at 2 years old when we took him. He would just sit with a bottle of milk, and a bag of goldfish or cookies. He would cry for junk food. Now he eats a well balanced diet with the right portions for his age, and is happy and healthy.

There are no toys in my kids room, we have a play area with a playstand and some playsilks, a kitchen set, some blocks, a few wooden cars, and a doll house. They do not have any video games, or flashy electric toys. They all love books, and to color and draw. They also love to build forts with blankets, or put on plays. They will do these things before playing with any toy we have. They also like to go outside and look for bugs, lizards, see if the chickens laid eggs, climb the tree, etc.

I do not feel like they are deprived because there is not a platter of snacks out on the table at all times, nor do we have a Wii, cable TV, or anything else that "every other kid has"


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## jojoboy (Apr 26, 2009)

I've found this discussion amazingly interesting, and I'll post my thoughts. I tried to read all the posts, and I was wondering about why you originally posted about the SAHP being able to make a significant amount of money.

To me, when I read your post, it just seemed like you didn't "get" the choice that they made - to only have one income that was limiting their ability to give their children things that you would like to give your kids (or maybe that you think most parents want to give their kids).

If the parents limited their income, but were still spending lots of money on themselves, while giving the kids zilch, I'd say this was an issue. But if they are making a whole family lifestyle choice, I see it as a choice.

To be honest, as an educated woman who chooses to stay at home, I feel like there's way too much pressure for me to work. So many families have two incomes now, that I sometimes feel like I "should" go back to work just to maintain ourselves within the norm of income/material possessions. I do have a choice about whether to stay home or not, but there is societal pressure to choose to work.

Anyway, no judgment meant to the OP, I just thought it was interesting that you chose to include that information.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

I guess I put that info in because it presented the situation as it is. I guess I can also continue to try and clarify since some folks seem to have taken offense to my inquiries.

I have no judgment toward people who live simply. I myself live more simply than some, not so simply to others. I do not give my child 'whatever she wants' nor do allow her to rummage through cabinets full of junk food. I don't know how inquiries regarding providing enough food for children so they are not ravenous turned into 'eating junk food all day long'. There is a big difference between allowing food and withholding food. And providing enough for optimum health and providing just what you think is necessary. I am not convinced that these parents are choosing the former and I appreciate the perspectives that other parents can give me.

I have gained great clarity in reading all of the responses and comments and have in earlier posts stated this. On further reflection I think that one or two posters may be on to something. Like that maybe the scant or simple lifestyle choice (in this case the availability of food) may be a little too scant for one or the other child. Not so much to implicate neglect, but maybe to indicate some behavioral issues regarding food. And also, I can clearly see a difference between the older two kids and how they are able to cope with the scarcity of 'things' where as the younger one doesn't seem to have this same ability. Of coarse some behavior difference is expected due to age difference, but I think even in personality there is a distinct difference in her ability to 'cope'.

So, hurray for the people living simply... and hurray for those who don't. Without such diverse experiences we would not have anything to discuss.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 

I have gained great clarity in reading all of the responses and comments and have in earlier posts stated this. On further reflection I think that one or two posters may be on to something. Like that maybe the scant or simple lifestyle choice (in this case the availability of food) may be a little too scant for one or the other child. Not so much to implicate neglect, but maybe to indicate some behavioral issues regarding food. And also, I can clearly see a difference between the older two kids and how they are able to cope with the scarcity of 'things' where as the younger one doesn't seem to have this same ability. Of coarse some behavior difference is expected due to age difference, but I think even in personality there is a distinct difference in her ability to 'cope'.
.

I think the issue many of us are pushing back on is that it's not clear you have any evidence that there IS "scant" food at home. Dozens of posters have noted that their well-fed kids go crazy over food at others' houses, because the friends' food is different or exciting. I guess I would just refrain from passing judgment before you've spoken to the other mom--otherwise, there's no way of knowing if this is an issue of "scarcity" or just behavior.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

I guess scant is relative. For my child I allow her to eat when she is hungry. There is food available to her whenever she wants it. She is not allowed to eat junk whenever she wants, but I don't enforce mealtimes so much as making healthy choices. I can see where getting older and having more structure in the day could mean eating more at mealtimes is necessary. Maybe this is the case here. Since I only have one child this is my first trip around...

I think there is scant food available because of my perspective. If a child is hungry I believe they should be allowed to eat. I don't think they should be catered to to such a degree that entitlement sets in, but there is no need for my child to be hungry.

She too will take food others offer or have available and so I don't think that in and of itself is a sign of scant food being available at home. I posted to gain clarity and I have. On closer reflection I do think these kids are offered less than I would deem appropriate (for my child) and I used the description of scant to explain this situation. I tend to err on the opposite side of the spectrum and if you told me that my child was glutenous I would take offense. There is no way she is glutenous, but to some maybe she is if they tend to prefer scant living. another word I used was monastic and other still could be simple etc.

I do think perspective plays an important role in discussing issues and there isn't need for anyone to take offense if they choose to live simply


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## farmkids42morrow (Apr 12, 2009)

Unless you've actually spoken to the mother about the food issue, don't read too much into it. SO many other things could be going on. My second son used to eat so much that he would vomit, so we had to restrict his eating until he was able to learn how to tell when he was full. Other families choose not to eat certain foods; if this child is a girl, her parents may be particular about foods that may contain hormones. I guess I'm just saying don't be quick to jump to conclusions. No mom needs to feel like the neighbors are breathing down her neck and ready to call children's services. What the mom might need though is an understanding person to talk to. Maybe there _are_ issues of not enough money, but going into it with the attitude of "Why don't you get a job and feed your kids more" is a sure-fire way to make her disregard _anything_ you have to say whether it's valid or not. No one likes someone preaching to them about how they are parenting their child. No one. I guess if it honestly is a concern in your eyes, I'm wondering why the negative feelings instead of sympathy or compassion?









I also agree with a PP who mentioned not rewarding the grabby hands behavior. No way would I allow my kids to eat something they snatched out of someone's hands!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I have no judgment toward people who live simply. I myself live more simply than some, not so simply to others. I do not give my child 'whatever she wants' nor do allow her to rummage through cabinets full of junk food. *I don't know how inquiries regarding providing enough food for children so they are not ravenous turned into 'eating junk food all day long'. There is a big difference between allowing food and withholding food.* And providing enough for optimum health and providing just what you think is necessary. I am not convinced that these parents are choosing the former and I appreciate the perspectives that other parents can give me.

I have gained great clarity in reading all of the responses and comments and have in earlier posts stated this. On further reflection I think that one or two posters may be on to something. Like that maybe the scant or simple lifestyle choice (in this case the availability of food) may be a little too scant for one or the other child. Not so much to implicate neglect, but maybe to indicate some behavioral issues regarding food. And also, I can clearly see a difference between the older two kids and how they are able to cope with the scarcity of 'things' where as the younger one doesn't seem to have this same ability. Of coarse some behavior difference is expected due to age difference, but I think even in personality there is a distinct difference in her ability to 'cope'.

Bolding mine. ITA. Younger kids can not ration food, store for later, find other ways to get food when parents are not looking (like stealing apples from the neighbors apple tree)... Older kids can. Not saying this is happening here. I don't know, and it seems you do not either.

And some kids have wild metabolisms and need a LOT of food, more than their parents think, in order to get their basic needs met. The brain burns up a ton of sugar just to function.

At the point these basic needs are not met, there is neglect. You do not need tv or games to be healthy, you do not need twinkies either, but you need more than just bread and broccoli (no matter how wonderful these two items are). My 5 yo DS likes to say "I am WILD about broccoli, and DD is WILD about rice, and you are WILD about colors." (I am an artist and I like food to be healthy but also look nice on the plate, hence colors). Anyway, my kids do not NEED paintings or colors (though it would be a sad world without them), but they absolutely do need rice and broccoli and a large variety of other foods as well.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Hmmm, this is kind of o/t, or at least mutating the topic, but isn't hunger a GOOD thing to experience? I don't mean day-in-day-out hunger, i mean before-eating hunger?

I don't withhold food indefinitely from my DD, (she's 3.5) but if she's had lunch 20mins previously and tells me she's hungry i say "well, you just ate" - 90% of the time she is not hungry, she is bored! A child who is hungry will still be hungry when colouring with me, or building a table-fort. Mine never is, once involved in a more interesting activity she is no longer hungry. I don't think that hunger is a bad thing for her to feel, and i hope for her (and the rest of us) to feel it before we eat, because it should be WHY we eat. If i feed her 3mins after she says she's hungry she picks at her dinner, if i feed her 30mins later she clears her plate, which for me represents a better attitude to both her body's signals and to food. I never insist she clear her plate, not by any means, i merely try to ensure she eats when she's genuinely hungry and thus naturally wants to eat a decent portion.

I absolutely would NOT let her pick all day, even on "healthy" food (which is very subjective i have found). She always has room for a stick of cheese or a second orange, but if she eats like that all day she'll never find the room for her peas and brocolli at dinner. I also cook one meal for the whole family and everyone eats it - she's been having curry and chilli-based foods since weaning. I will ocasionally let her choose dinner for the family (it's always thai curry with mama's roti when she chooses







) but i never let her opt in or out of family meals.

Is hunger an Evil, to be avoided at all costs? Again i reiterate, i am not talking about hunger following days or weeks of under-eating, i mean hunger from your body saying "hey, running low here, time to eat".


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## farmkids42morrow (Apr 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I don't withhold food indefinitely from my DD, (she's 3.5) but if she's had lunch 20mins previously and tells me she's hungry i say "well, you just ate" - 90% of the time she is not hungry, she is bored!

I absolutely would NOT let her pick all day, even on "healthy" food (which is very subjective i have found). She always has room for a stick of cheese or a second orange, but if she eats like that all day she'll never find the room for her peas and brocolli at dinner. I also cook one meal for the whole family and everyone eats it
Is hunger an Evil, to be avoided at all costs? Again i reiterate, i am not talking about hunger following days or weeks of under-eating, i mean hunger from your body saying "hey, running low here, time to eat".

I agree totally with this. Children need to learn how to tell when they are genuinely hungry or they are just wanting to eat because they can't think of anything else to do. They cannot learn this if food is always available at the first hint of their wanting something to eat.

My kids are allowed to eat if they are genuinely hungry, which I test by putting them off the first time they ask. If they come back 10 or 15 minutes later, I know they really need something. Nine times out of ten, they get involved in something and forget how "starving" they were. I think the tendency to never want our kids to experience bad feelings or trying to protect them from what we perceive as harmful does them more harm than good. I know my kids won't starve to death without 5 snacks per day. Do they want it, yes...will they get it, no.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
I guess scant is relative. For my child I allow her to eat when she is hungry. There is food available to her whenever she wants it. She is not allowed to eat junk whenever she wants, but I don't enforce mealtimes so much as making healthy choices.

I think there is scant food available because of my perspective. If a child is hungry I believe they should be allowed to eat. I don't think they should be catered to to such a degree that entitlement sets in, but there is no need for my child to be hungry.


So, it sounds to me that it's more of a parenting style difference, the "proper" way to feed a child, than a real case of neglect. It is so hard to not get upset when we think a child is not being treated well. But just remember that there are two sides to that coin. Another mom may think you are too permissive, or think your food choices for your child are irresponsible, or your discipline style "wrong". My point is that when we start judging each other as moms, nothing is accomplished and potential friendships lost. Trying to get to know where the other person is coming from is key.

If the shoe was on the other foot and your child was the one causing a problem in another mom's home (which is really the issue here, the child's behavior in your home _is_ inappropriate), what would you want that mom to do? How would you want her to feel about you as a mom? Would you want her to speak to you about it? (I'm not asking for an answer, I'm just saying ask yourself these questions.) Give this mom the same respect, and show the same concern that you would wish others to show to you.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmkids42morrow* 
I agree totally with this. Children need to learn how to tell when they are genuinely hungry or they are just wanting to eat because they can't think of anything else to do. They cannot learn this if food is always available at the first hint of their wanting something to eat.

My kids are allowed to eat if they are genuinely hungry, which I test by putting them off the first time they ask. If they come back 10 or 15 minutes later, I know they really need something. Nine times out of ten, they get involved in something and forget how "starving" they were. I think the tendency to never want our kids to experience bad feelings or trying to protect them from what we perceive as harmful does them more harm than good. I know my kids won't starve to death without 5 snacks per day. Do they want it, yes...will they get it, no.

Yeah, I don't get the constant snacking thing. People complain that their kids don't eat enough at meals. Well what a shock when they've been snacking all day. No wonder the USA has an obesity problem.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Grazing is very healthy if you graze on healthy foods.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yeah, I don't get the constant snacking thing. People complain that their kids don't eat enough at meals. Well what a shock when they've been snacking all day. No wonder the USA has an obesity problem.

Hmmmm.... I have a constant-snacker, or grazer, depending on what you call it, who also eats a great deal of food at meals. That is just the way she is wired. AND she will go nuts anywhere there is "different" food, be it "junk" or just different. For instance, there is an Indian restaurant owner in Kalamazoo who is rethinking his kids-under-3-eat-free-at-the-buffet policy..... When she was younger, we had a couple of friends who really thought we might be starving her because she would eat a lot of food at their houses. She eats a lot at OUR house too. The child has been eating as much as dh or I eat since age 3. And, no there is nothing medically wrong with her. She is just a big eater. Also very thin. Of course, her "grazing" foods at home are almost all raw vegetables, fruits, or leftovers from meals. As long as the grazing food is healthy, I do not see what there is to "not get". If a person is hungry, they should eat.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Hmmmm.... I have a constant-snacker, or grazer, depending on what you call it, who also eats a great deal of food at meals. That is just the way she is wired. AND she will go nuts anywhere there is "different" food, be it "junk" or just different. For instance, there is an Indian restaurant owner in Kalamazoo who is rethinking his kids-under-3-eat-free-at-the-buffet policy..... When she was younger, we had a couple of friends who really thought we might be starving her because she would eat a lot of food at their houses. She eats a lot at OUR house too. The child has been eating as much as dh or I eat since age 3. And, no there is nothing medically wrong with her. She is just a big eater. Also very thin. Of course, her "grazing" foods at home are almost all raw vegetables, fruits, or leftovers from meals. As long as the grazing food is healthy, I do not see what there is to "not get". If a person is hungry, they should eat.

But as a previous poster pointed out, the person needs to recognize whether they are really hungry or just mindlessly eating.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I agree. However I do not think a "grazer" is necessarily eating out of boredom. Grazing can be a healthy way to eat.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I agree. However I do not think a "grazer" is necessarily eating out of boredom. Grazing can be a healthy way to eat.

Yes. DD1 is a natural grazer. She doesn't really care about meals, and doesn't want to sit down to a bunch of food at once. She eats all day - a piece of cheese, an apple, a handful of raw sunflower seeds, a piece of bread/toast, a carrot, some berries - whatever. She likes a small lunch, and barely touches dinner. I don't care about that - she's eating enough. She's also very active and very healthy. DS2 is less of a grazer, and he's the chubbiest of my kids...not so much that I think there's a problem, but bigger than the other two were.

I just have to watch them with the carbs and junk.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmkids42morrow* 
Maybe there _are_ issues of not enough money, but going into it with the attitude of "Why don't you get a job and feed your kids more" is a sure-fire way to make her disregard _anything_ you have to say whether it's valid or not. No one likes someone preaching to them about how they are parenting their child. No one. I guess if it honestly is a concern in your eyes, I*'m wondering why the negative feelings instead of sympathy or compassion*?










I made this part bold, because I think it is the heart of the problem. Have you had a chance to ask the mom if everything is okay?


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
this family is not amish nor do they live on a sailboat. they live in regular society and should be able to enjoy common things that the other children of society get to enjoy. im not saying that you need to have the very best toys and clothes but you gotta have SOME.

I agree with you...but what kinds of toys are you talking about? I don't buy my children alot of toys, hardly any. It all ends up as toy box fodder and waste anyway. But they can do amazing things with their imagination and an old box, or crayons and paper, or left over fabric scraps and a sewing machine. They spend countless hours outdoors with their animals, brothers and sisters, digging in the dirt, building on their paly fort. Their heads are buried in books, they are up to thier necks in activities they make up to do on their own. I don't get them "toys" because, well frankly, they are too busy to play with them.


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## jojoboy (Apr 26, 2009)

For the OP: I think your post was completely appropriate. That is what these forums are for, to ask questions when you're unsure of how to deal with situations and get feedback from other mommas. My previous post was more of a curiosity/musing about stay at home moms than a comment about you.

For posters who are anti-grazing: I totally disagree. Grazing is a way to teach kids to respond to their own signals. They're hungry - then they eat. Just like BFing. Confining food to specific times of the day teaches kids (and all people, honestly) that they need to eat now because food won't be available later. Thus, they eat above and beyond their own hunger in order to meet their energy needs for later on. When you confine your eating to specific times of day,you're actually teaching your body to suppress initial hunger signs, saying, "I can eat later", which teaches your body to eat on schedule, not according to actual hunger.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I'm a constant grazer. I have a crazy high metabolism, and eat 7-8 times a day at a minimum. I'm a healthy weight and I don't eat when I'm bored. Almost every day, I eat lunch, and then about 20 minutes later need to eat a salad or fruit or something, then eat another snack in about an hour, etc. Sure, my main meals are smaller when I eat like this, but who cares? Thinking I've somehow "ruined" my dinner by having an apple, or a piece of cheese at 4:30 is foreign to me. My 4 year old eats like this too without a problem.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm not against grazing, but that doesn't mean that three meals a day plus a snack or two is deprivation.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

Hmmm, I am actually not a very compassionate person. I suppose it is on the list of virtues I would like to improve upon and incorporate more into my life, but I'm not at all sure this situation calls for compassion. As well, I don't feel sympathy is in order either. I think these parents have made very specific choices... albeit different than ones I would make, but sympathy isn't in my radar.

I'm not so sure my feelings were overtly 'negative', but even if they were I don't know why I shouldn't have them. That is why I posted, so I could gain clarity.


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## farmkids42morrow (Apr 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
Hmmm, I am actually not a very compassionate person. I suppose it is on the list of virtues I would like to improve upon and incorporate more into my life, but I'm not at all sure this situation calls for compassion. As well, I don't feel sympathy is in order either. I think these parents have made very specific choices... albeit different than ones I would make, but sympathy isn't in my radar.

*I'm not so sure my feelings were overtly 'negative', but even if they were I don't know why I shouldn't have them.* That is why I posted, so I could gain clarity.

I bolded that part because that really gets to the heart of the matter. I am a mom of 4 who has been screamed at - really - in a store and at the library for homeschooling my children (we were out during the day! - sin of all sins) by people who don't know me, my family, or (obviously) anything about homeschooling. The idea that people can have a deep seated, negative reaction to a situation _they don't even understand_ is something that...well, I can't understand. Why the reaction of "I don't like your choices so you must be wrong" seems to be the norm is very troubling to me. That's kind of what I'm picking up on here.

Just because they are your feelings, doesn't mean they are _appropriate for this occasion_. I admire the fact that you're able to be honest about your personality; knowing that about yourself though, take some time to think about why this is really bothering you because honestly, if I saw a family that was truly hungry, even if it was because of someone in the family not pulling their weight - which I'm not convinced is the case here - I would feel a desire to help, to reach out to them and at least let them know that I'm concerned. I'm not trying to attack you here (I give you a lot of credit for not taking offense at anything posted and actually thinking about what everyone said), but it seems like you have feelings that are so...uncaring, or maybe feeling a little superior, that it's stopping you from seeing the real issue.

If the behavior is the issue, address it. If the food is the issue, address that. But it seems like it's really their lifestyle that is getting to you and honestly, that's none of your business. No, you don't have to allow their children to run roughshod over you and your home, but like it or not we only have control over what goes on in our own homes. Do you think the children are in danger or unsafe? I don't get the impression that you do. If not, you have two choices: 1. reach out to them in friendship and see if they need help or 2. lay down some guidelines for when the kids are in your home and send them home if they don't respect the rules. I guess a third would be to stop having any contact with them if you honestly can't deal with it anymore.

Sometimes life doesn't go as planned and maybe this family is having a harder time affording the goodies that kids want on one income than they anticipated. But going through tough times as a child is not a terrible thing, nor is is deprivation.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

I guess it can be said that there's a difference between allowing your kids snacks when they're hungry, and letting them graze unchecked. Not to mention that sometimes what a parent deems as an "appropriate" portion of food may be too much or not enough for a child.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I allow my daughter to "graze unchecked". Or get something to eat whenever she wants, anyway. She doesn't have to go through me - she knows where the food is. And she doesn't eat constantly, she eats healthy foods, and she's pretty slim, and very healthy.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Unchecked grazers here too. Dd does not even have to ask anyone. She knows where the food is and serves herself. I am less of a grazer now but was as a child. I had to keep snacks in my locker (against the rules) all through school because the 4 hours between breakfast and the lunch hour was WAY too long. I have been watching dd today out of curiosity. In addition to the full breakfast and lunch that I made and dd ate all of, she has served herself an apple, half a pomegranate, two carrots, a cheese stick, and a handful of almonds. She just asked me for a cup of cider. Our whole family is thin and grazing seems to agree with us. In fact, dh cannot go more than two hours or so without a snack. I do not buy or keep unhealthy foods in the house so anything dd chooses to eat is fine with me.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

On the grazers. For some people children included it is best. For some people, like DH it is not best. He can't graze in a healthy manner because without a specific eating schedule he will either not feel hungry when he should (i.e. two days without eating because he's not hungry) or won't stop eating when he should (i.e. constantly feeling hungry even when he is full).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aspenleaves* 
Hmmm, I am actually not a very compassionate person. I suppose it is on the list of virtues I would like to improve upon and incorporate more into my life, but I'm not at all sure this situation calls for compassion. As well, I don't feel sympathy is in order either. I think these parents have made very specific choices... albeit different than ones I would make, but sympathy isn't in my radar.

I'm not so sure my feelings were overtly 'negative', but even if they were I don't know why I shouldn't have them. That is why I posted, so I could gain clarity.

It isn't what you feel it's how you react to what you feel. Your feelings are based on your experiences. You came here expressed your concern and listened to the people that explained their views on the matter and from what I can see have accepted that those feelings may not be entirely warrented.

*Shrugs* Sounds human too me, and much better then the people who just get angry and call everyone UAV's when they are gived contradictory information.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't have an issue with people whose children don't graze. I'm just getting a weird vibe:

1. She just does things differently than you, and you shouldn't judge the different style of food availability. This does not constitute abuse or neglect. (I'm in this camp.)

and

2. Grazing is bad.

It seems like those are contradictory viewpoints, but maybe different groups of people have the two viewpoints.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm a little confused. Mamazee are you refering to something I wrote?


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't have an issue with people whose children don't graze. I'm just getting a weird vibe:

1. She just does things differently than you, and you shouldn't judge the different style of food availability. This does not constitute abuse or neglect. (I'm in this camp.)

and

2. Grazing is bad.

It seems like those are contradictory viewpoints, but maybe different groups of people have the two viewpoints.

I didn't see anyone here saying that grazing is bad. The OP was concerned because her neighbor's children are not permitted to graze. Some other people, including me, said that children can be well-fed without grazing, so the OP probably doesn't need to worry in the absence of actual neglect signs. That's all.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

ok, i think some people are reading "we don't graze" and misconstruing "we don't snack".

She gets up, has breakfast, midmorning a snack, lunch, midafternoon a snack, dinner and occasionally (she rarely asks for it) a supper snack. Grazing to me is eating every 30-40mins throughout the day, and no that doesn't allow for normal hunger signals to get through, and FOR MY FAMILY isn't a healthy way to eat. I doubt anyone who restricts grazing is asking a tiny child to go 4 or more hours between meals without eating a snack. I can only say that i have seen many children who graze through the day and none of them were ever hungry enough to try the foods they didn't lke the look of (which is pretty much everything for some cautious 2 year olds!). If you have a child that eats every 30mins and still would rather have a raw carrot or celery stick than another yogurt or another cheese stick then good for you! I don't have a kid like that, i have a kid who if allowed to eat every 30mins would go for the same "safe" foods all day, which would not give her a balanced diet at all. Unfortunately for me, my kid will only try new foods and eat all her veggies when they are seasoned with a bit of hunger.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

I don't see what this family is doing as bad either....but if the SAHP is home while the kids are in school then I wonder why they don't work PT or work from home. You mentioned they earned six figures in the past.







That part is odd to me. If my kids were all in school I'd be terribly bored if I didn't at least work at home, which I do now and I homeschool my kids


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
I don't see what this family is doing as bad either....but if the SAHP is home while the kids are in school then I wonder why they don't work PT or work from home. You mentioned they earned six figures in the past.







That part is odd to me. If my kids were all in school I'd be terribly bored if I didn't at least work at home, which I do now and I homeschool my kids

Do we know for sure they don't work from home? The level of simplicity the OP describes could very easily be voluntary, despite a large income, rather than because of a small income.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Just because the kids are in school does not mean that there is a ton of free time.

Around here schools start at crazy staggered times. With 3 kids I could see someone spending 2 hours in the morning and then again in the afternoon getting kids back and forth from school. Add after school activities and it quickly becomes a full time job!

Maybe the SAHP volunteers at the school. Maybe the SAHP is working on a novel. Maybe there is an underling medical reason to not work, you can't just look or talk to a neighbor and really know. Some of the odd behavior of the neighbor could be explained by something like this. Or maybe they hate working and love being at home and available. Not everyone has a need to be busy all of the time.

It all comes back to different choices and different lifestyles.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I didn't see anyone here saying that grazing is bad. The OP was concerned because her neighbor's children are not permitted to graze. Some other people, including me, said that children can be well-fed without grazing, so the OP probably doesn't need to worry in the absence of actual neglect signs. That's all.

There were a couple of people who said that grazing is bad, they don't get why people allow it, and that it leads to obesity. It's a long thread, and not a lot of people seemed to feel that way. And like I said, there might be two different groups of people saying those two apparently contradictory things.


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## moonmom08 (Feb 22, 2009)

I read *most* of the posts...

I don't believe that a simple lifestyle amounts to deprivation, but that does not mean that children see it that way. But even if the children feel or act deprived, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are. Example: I too grew up without much of anything in the way of toys, foods I found interesting, nice house, etc. My parents probably could have made more money, but it was not their driver. I felt pretty deprived and jealous all the time. I remember yelling at my mom one Christmas because my friend got new skis and I didn't and I DIDN'T EVEN SKI, lol! I also don't necessarily think it leads to the desire for a more material life in the future. I always thought I would be the opposite of my parents as an adult, but I actually wound up the same. I don't know how that happened, but I'm glad.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

*haven't read through the whole thread*

I recently re-read the first book in the Little house on the Prairie series and I'm reminded of how much we have and don't need! Those little girls had only a few dresses, a couple of toys (Laura only has a corn cob with clothes for the first half of the book), very little "extras" and kind of bare-bones food. But they had everything a child could ever possibly need. They had loving parents, a warm bed, room to run and explore, each other's company, and good food to grow on.

They got SUPER excited when Pa brought home fabric so Ma could make them each a new dress. They were excited to see and taste white sugar. They spent the evenings watching Pa make bullets so he could hunt the next day. They helped with the chores. They pretended to have tea parties under their favorite tree with nothing more than their dolls.

Imagine if you took Laura and Mary and stuck them in a modern American's house. Would they not go running around trying to see everything and touch everything? Would they not gobble up every bit of food they've never tried or don't get on a regular basis? Would they not ooh and aah over the 20+ outfits today's kids seem to need?

That is not neglect and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. I'm actually trying very hard to get AWAY from all of the materialistic stuff. I'm weeding out a lot of the junk toys and replacing them with books and toys that are educational and/or conducive to open-ended play. I don't have cable or internet, or even a computer (I use my mom's or DBF's when I need a little "me" time). My children are not deprived in the least, nor was I, and I was raised without many extras too.


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