# What would you do if you were being hunted...



## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

After becoming pregnant, I left my ex because he was verbally, physically, and sexually abusive. I tried to leave him countless times prior to becoming pregnant, but because he raped me early on in the relationship, I felt stuck...or more like enchained, really. Once I became pregnant, I felt like my child's safety waS of the utmost priority and I ended the relationship. I didn't hear from my ex for months, then his father began threatening myself and my family via email and phone messages when I was unresponsive to a couple of harassing e-mails he had sent me. The threats included saying they would take my baby from me, that I was an unfit mother, that the allegations I made against their son were false, and that I better have the protective order removed. When we were unresponsive, they eventually sent private investigators to my mother's home, where they believed I was living. My child was born and shortly thereafter was the scheduled hearing for the protective order I had been able to obtain ex parte. At the hearing, the judge found favor with me, but removed it because my ex lives out of the state I live in. During our relationship, he made comments to me like, "you deserve to die!" repeatedly. Because of comments like that, his abusive behavior, and my concern for my life and my child's life, I moved immediately after the hearing.

I suspected that because of their threats, they would likely pursue establishing paternity and custody. I never reported the rape because I was so ashamed and had a really difficult time even accepting what had happened and until our relationship ended, I wasn't able to call it what it was.

Fast forward to today and my child and I live a very quiet and simple life. We live a happy life, but I have learned that my ex and his family, have somehow managed to get a body attachment placed to my name. I only know this information because I have friends who work in the courthouse. I have not been served this information by way of mail or a sheriff. However, the court considers me served because the call for my appearance in court was placed in the newspaper. I never saw it. I don't read the paper, ever. Nevertheless, they consider me served. This means, if I'm pulled over while driving, I will be arrested and placed in jail for up to 30 days until a hearing date. I don't know what would happen to my child, but I suspect CPS or to my ex. If my child were with my ex, I'm certain I would never see my baby again.

I have done my research and I know rapists are rarely convicted and if convicted, they still receive "parental rights" in many states. Because my ex's family is wealthy, I feel that the charges against my name have been obtained by way of paying people to make the decisions they want made. I know that's a strong statement to make, but every lawyer and officer of the law I've spoken with about my situation is stunned that they have been able to obtain things like a birth certificate (when I never had my child's birth recorded), and visitation rights when, again, there is no record of my chid's birth, and now a body attachment to my name. And lastly, I've learned by way of a friend who knows the magistrate who made the decision for a body attachment to be placed on my name that he has been paid to remove someone from their employment position in the past. I hope that's all clear. It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around at times.

I don't have a typical job, so I cannot be found by way of my job through a private investigator or any other form of records. Even still, I am concerned for my life and what might happen to myself and my child if we are "found" so to speak. Another important detail is that after my ex's family had been unsuccessful in finding us, they went to facebook and posted that I and my child were missing! When in actuality, I'm doing everything I can do give my child a safe future.

I am being hunted by wicked and power-hungry people and I'm wondering what suggestions any fellow mother's may have.

Thanks for taking the time to read and response. I really appreciate it.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I have no experience in this. But I will say I am sorry you have to go through this. Do you have proof of the abuse he did to you? Also the lies? Also they cant jsut make a birth certificate. Fraud is fraud no matter how much money they have. The more you run the more case they make against you. But if they arent finding you then maybe thats for the best too. How do they know you even had the baby? Are they assuming or did they have contact with the child? Such a tough situation.

The only thing I would do is that if it looks like they might be finding you have friends or people in other areas of the country make you profiles online. Like FB. Linked, twitter. To make it seem that you are in another location. Good luck.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

Maybe go talk to a women's shelter? They have professionals who know how to deal with these situations - legal counsel and how to protect yourself.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I would go to a womens shelter immediately.


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## rnra (Dec 15, 2011)

Gather your belongings and get to a Women's shelter right away.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LLQ1011*
> 
> I have no experience in this. But I will say I am sorry you have to go through this. Do you have proof of the abuse he did to you? Also the lies? Also they cant jsut make a birth certificate. Fraud is fraud no matter how much money they have. The more you run the more case they make against you. But if they arent finding you then maybe thats for the best too. How do they know you even had the baby? Are they assuming or did they have contact with the child? Such a tough situation.
> 
> The only thing I would do is that if it looks like they might be finding you have friends or people in other areas of the country make you profiles online. Like FB. Linked, twitter. To make it seem that you are in another location. Good luck.


Thank you for your kind words. Unfortunately, other than friends who witnessed some of the events, I don't have much proof. I do have a letter he wrote me in an attempt to win me back in which he finally states that he did hit me. The letter is signed, but the question his attorney asked me repeatedly at the protective order hearing was, "were the police called?" and I honestly asnwered, "no." The police were never called because I felt ashamed about the situation, like I needed to fix him and when you're in a sexually abusive relationship coupled with physical and verbal abuse, it's ironically very difficult to call things what they are. At least, it was for me. Now that the relationship has been over for quite some time. I see everything for what it was. Regarding the lies, a friend of my family, who met with my ex on one occasion, is aware of how much of a liar he is because my ex was spouting off to my family friend that I am the abuser, the liar, and that he (my ex) is the victim in this situation. Our friend knows he was lying, but I have no way to prove he lied in court or that he lies in general. Men who are abusive believe they're telling the truth and believe they're the ones who are the victims.

At the protective order hearing, my lawyer, provided to me through a local organization supposed to help women in situations like mine told his lawyer outside of the court room that there was a child, even though i had repeatedly and clearly expressed that i did not want anything from him and did not want them to know I had a child. I have learned my lawyer is really more of a fraud than a lawyer and never should be allowed to practice law, but there isn't really anything I can do about it now. So, at the hearing, his lawyer asked me the child's name and birth date. I was under oath, I had no choice but to share it, which is why I left town immediately after the hearing. I wanted them to assume there was no child. I never expected it to come up in the protective hearing because I didn't put anything about being pregnant in the file for the protective order and I had not been in touch with my ex about the pregnancy.

I don't keep in touch with friends and family for the purpose of keeping them safe and myself and my baby safe. It's frustrating to feel like I'm still being victimized, but I don't want my child to experience what I did...or worse.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarthRootsStarSoul*
> 
> Maybe go talk to a women's shelter? They have professionals who know how to deal with these situations - legal counsel and how to protect yourself.


After I ended the relationship and before my child was born I did seek help from a local organization that is supposed to help abused women obtain protective orders, education about how to avoid relationships with abusive men, and the like. This is the organization that appointed me with a fraud of an attorney. I feel burned by the system and I'm not willing to enter it again to risk losing my child. A large majority of men who pursue custody obtain it, regardless of the situation, men who pursue custody are looked upon as good men in the eyes of the court because most men would not care less about having custody.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

I don't know if this is a good suggestion or not, but if you want to know what's going on in court, could you get a P.O. Box? Here, you have to be served in person but if someone is being difficult for whatever reason (my ex just didn't want to deal with court) you can do alternative service. If you went to the registry and gave them your P.O. box (or have the lawyer you spoke to do it for you) and your email address to put in the file, then the judge would know that they DO have a way of contacting you for legal purposes and hopefully lift the body attachment.

Or, if you've been in your state long enough, could you file for something there and get it away from the judge you suspect is corrupt?


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## MotheringBliss (Mar 20, 2005)

HB1,

I don't want to overwhelm you with info, but I'm familiar with your dilemma. There are ways to deal with the courts, NOT easy, lots of research, huge shift in thinking...

Start with the Driver's License: http://justiceprose.8m.com/carl/carl41.html

Inform the government of your intentions to travel in you car with no registration and if they have any objection they must say so in writing, within 20 days. You can quote case law if you want etc. etc. Make sure that you want their response under penalty of perjury, and under Oath, with full libility.

How you word your agree/contract with them is up to you. Make sure you send it registered mail. Probably to the State attorney general would be the best place.

I would use the word affidavit in the title of you presentment. When they don't answer with in the time frame, your presentment become law, contract makes the law, between you and the state.

Have it notarized and a return receipt on the registered mail

Do not allow an officer to ID you as ***** NAME, Assert You are a woman free to travel via your conveyance. Ask what harm has been done to be detained? Make your own plates, so they cannot claim you as a consenting state asset. There is much more...Best to PM me!

Then go on to distinguishing your previous consent to being property of the US Corporation (and subject to it's statues) from your human rights: http://www.mind-trek.com/practicl/afdv-gen.htm

You were protecting yourself and child from harm....The corrupt court system is designed to shatter families and generate revenue. Keep your tracks covered while you reestablish you rights.

Careful with correspondence, utility bills, registrations, medical care ect...


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MotheringBliss*
> 
> HB1,
> 
> ...


I'd be careful offering "legal" advice if you're not a lawyer, especially highly flawed advice like above.

OP: I think going to a womens' shelter is a good idea, but I also think that you need to find a lawyer, if you don't already have one. In many circumstances, writs of body attachment are used when someone ignores or fails to respond to a subpoena. Personally I wouldn't go around trying to avoid the court system, I would find a good lawyer (through legal aid or other organizations if you can't presently afford to retain a lawyer) who can both defend you against this family and help resolve your situation.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mummoth*
> 
> I don't know if this is a good suggestion or not, but if you want to know what's going on in court, could you get a P.O. Box? Here, you have to be served in person but if someone is being difficult for whatever reason (my ex just didn't want to deal with court) you can do alternative service. If you went to the registry and gave them your P.O. box (or have the lawyer you spoke to do it for you) and your email address to put in the file, then the judge would know that they DO have a way of contacting you for legal purposes and hopefully lift the body attachment.
> 
> Or, if you've been in your state long enough, could you file for something there and get it away from the judge you suspect is corrupt?


The problem with being contact in any way is becoming a part of the court system, which I want nothing to do with. They don't really protect children in most cases. In some, yes, children are kept from harm, but more commonly...children and women and placed in situations that cause uncorrectable and unforgettable damage.

If I was in the system, yes, I could petition for a different judge, but because I don't want to be involved with the courts...no ... I can't. :-/ My ex really wants control of me and since he cannot have it by way of a relationship with me, he wants parental rights so he can take the baby I conceived while we were together. I don't doubt that he would have myself or my child killed. The fear of have of my child losing me or my child being taken from me it too much of a risk for me to enter the legal system. Unfortunately, when people have money they're able to accomplish what they want far more often than not.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> I'd be careful offering "legal" advice if you're not a lawyer, especially highly flawed advice like above.
> 
> OP: I think going to a womens' shelter is a good idea, but I also think that you need to find a lawyer, if you don't already have one. In many circumstances, writs of body attachment are used when someone ignores or fails to respond to a subpoena. Personally I wouldn't go around trying to avoid the court system, I would find a good lawyer (through legal aid or other organizations if you can't presently afford to retain a lawyer) who can both defend you against this family and help resolve your situation.


I've been to a local organization that was supposed to help me. The lawyer that had by way of grant money was hardly qualified to be a lawyer and she is part of the reason why I'm in this mess. I had not told my ex that I had the baby and because I had a homebirth, there was no record of my child's birth. I had always planned to have a homebirth. I made it abundantly clear to my appointed attorney that I was self-sufficient, didn't want him to know I had a child, was not on medicaid, didn't want anything from he or his family. Even if I did, his parents are the one's with money, he was barely able to hold a part-time job and never had enough to pay his bills. All of that aside, he is a bad guy in every sense of the word.

Anyway.

In my experience, a lawyer wants to keep people and children within the legal system. Once the courts are part of your life, they don't leave and I don't trust complete corrupt strangers to make decisions about what is best for my child or myself. They weren't there when I was being raped, manipulated, sexually abused, physically threatened, controlled, pushed around into walls, and hit while I was carrying a baby. They don't know how belligerant my ex was when things didn't go just that way he thought they should. The courts don't understand abuse because it's distant and far from relational.

Like I said before, the lawyers and law officers whom I have spoken with are in shock that a body attachment was placed. I spoke with family law attorneys and another attorney who has been practicing for many years. The officers I spoke with were also not new to the force, so clearly my situation is incredibly unusual. I was not subpoenaed and like also said, the only way the courts consider me served is because something was published in the paper requesting my appearance at a hearing. I only know this by way of friends who work within the courthouse, not because I saw the paper. Until recently, I didn't even know such a thing was possible.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *honeybaby1*
> 
> I've been to a local organization that was supposed to help me. The lawyer that had by way of grant money was hardly qualified to be a lawyer and she is part of the reason why I'm in this mess. I had not told my ex that I had the baby and because I had a homebirth, there was no record of my child's birth. I had always planned to have a homebirth. I made it abundantly clear to my appointed attorney that I was self-sufficient, didn't want him to know I had a child, was not on medicaid, didn't want anything from he or his family. Even if I did, his parents are the one's with money, he was barely able to hold a part-time job and never had enough to pay his bills. All of that aside, he is a bad guy in every sense of the word.
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention that the lawyer I had been appointed through the local organization that is supposed to help battered and abused women is the very person who told me ex's attorney that I did have a baby. As I understand it, she really should not have done so. But, there's nothing I could do about it....she had shared the information.


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## 1stTimeMama4-4-10 (Feb 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MotheringBliss*
> 
> HB1,
> 
> ...


This makes no sense and it is utterly wrong. Please don't listen to this.

As far as your other issues:

1. Your ex has parental rights because he is the biological father. If he was a rapist and the child was conceived via rape, he is still the biological father and STILL HAS PARENTAL RIGHTS. It is possible to terminate his parental rights through the judicial system, but your opinion about whether he should have parental rights is meaningless. While you interfere with his rights without permission of the court, it will make the court think that he is the good guy and you are in the wrong for stealing his child. I am not saying this is right, but it is the truth.

2. You seem very angry with the lawyer who disclosed that you had a child. Again, the father has legal rights regardless of your instructions to hide the child's birth. The lawyer has an ethical duty to be honest and cannot lie for you. A lawyer can do their best to represent their client zealously, but ethically they CANNOT LIE. What you wanted your lawyer to do was lie for you. Please don't assume that the entire system is out to get you because a lawyer had to be honest.

3. The reason that you have a take into custody order is that the only way the judicial system works is if people obey it. You have not obeyed the system and they upped the ante. This will not go away and it will hang over your head forever unless you get it resolved. You are right to be concerned that if you get taken into custody that the father may well end up with your child while you are not available. This is NOT the way to handle the situation. You need to listen to the court system because if you don't you run the very real risk that your child will be ordered out of your custody. Please don't take that risk, that is not in anyone's interest.

4. You say you relocated to another state. If you have been in that state for at least 6 months and can prove residence for yourself and your child during that time, AND your ex filed for custody/visitation AFTER you had been in that state for 6 months, you can have the entire action either dismissed outright or at least transferred to your state. If your ex filed for custody BEFORE the six months was up, then his state is the state that retains jurisdiction and all of the orders in that state are VALID.

5. What you need to do is two things. First, you need to file your own custody action in your own state. Second, you need to get in touch with the court that issued the take into custody order immediately. Call the clerk and explain the situation. Tell them that you are fearful for your life and that you never received actual notice of any court proceedings. Tell them that you have your own custody case pending and ask whether it would be possible for you to reopen the case in your ex's state and participate via phone. The clerks will be helpful as long as you are clear and respectful with them.

Best of luck to you, this is a terrible situation and I hope that you can navigate your way out. Just remember that you cannot escape the judicial system and that as long as you run, your ex has the upper hand. Also, I'm sorry to tell you that because your ex has parental rights, he will also likely be granted some type of visitation. If I were you, I would ask that it be supervised by a professional visitation supervision agency. I know you don't want him in your life at all, but sadly, it just doesn't work that way at all.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MotheringBliss*
> 
> HB1,
> 
> ...


I'm really interested in what you have to share. Thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out, too.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

How can anyone be concerned about the legal rights of such an abusive man? Should he have unsupervised visitation so he can abuse the child, too? And repeatedly, until there is sufficient evidence to finally end the abuse (if there ever is before the child dies as a result of abuse). That kind of thing can and has happened.


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## 1stTimeMama4-4-10 (Feb 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> How can anyone be concerned about the legal rights of such an abusive man? Should he have unsupervised visitation so he can abuse the child, too? And repeatedly, until there is sufficient evidence to finally end the abuse (if there ever is before the child dies as a result of abuse). That kind of thing can and has happened.


Because we live in a society in which the accused are not automatically assumed to be guilty. If this guy is as bad as the OP says he is, the court system will support her. But if you flip it around and only listened to his side without giving her a chance to respond, that would be a major violation of her rights. Being abusive does NOT deprive a parent of his/her rights until and unless they have an opportunity to contest the charges in open court. If you think about it, that really is the only civilized way to handle these volatile situations. That's why the longer the OP refuses to comply with court orders the worse it will be. I am genuinely afraid for this child in light of OP's decision to ignore the good advice given in this thread in favor of the crazy illegal advice suggested by one poster who clearly has no grasp of the American legal system.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *honeybaby1*
> 
> I'm really interested in what you have to share. Thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out, too.


I wash my hands of this. You can choose illegal methods of avoiding the law, then you can accept the consequences. I'm tired of offering my opinion only to get shot down by people who know "better" even though I'm thoroughly aware of the law and the ramifications. Sorry, OP, but you're potentially buying into a concept that will put you at greater risk than what others have offered here. You're free to choose what you want to do, but there's a cost/benefit analysis to everything that we choose. My personal opinion and that of many of my colleagues (who, I guarantee, are not out to get anyone or undermine their rights), is that legal remedies are there for a reason and there is help and protection under the law.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *honeybaby1*
> 
> I'm really interested in what you have to share. Thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out, too.


You're ignoring some really good advice from women who know what they're talking about. I know you got burned by the court system, but there are better lawyers out there. The more you try to avoid the court system, the deeper you're digging yourself. You're at real risk for losing your daughter forever because the court is going to see you, not the father, as the problem.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> How can anyone be concerned about the legal rights of such an abusive man? Should he have unsupervised visitation so he can abuse the child, too? And repeatedly, until there is sufficient evidence to finally end the abuse (if there ever is before the child dies as a result of abuse). That kind of thing can and has happened.


Has the abuse against him been proved? If not, then he deserves a day in court, no matter how awful we think he is. I know personally, of a father who was falsely accused by his wife. It took him several years to document that she had a drug/alcohol problem and was the one who was abusing the kids. He still didn't get full custody. We only know one side of the story. Both sides deserve to be heard. To do otherwise is vigilantism.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

My concern is for the safety and well-being of the child. Assuming the man is as abusive as has been stated, and assuming that abuse has not been documented (for whatever reason), how can the child be protected from abuse?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

If she takes the advice to flee, manufacture documents and live outside the system, she risks having all custody taken away from her and full custody given to her abusive ex. If what she says about the body order is true, then if she's ever pulled over, she's going to lose her child, even temporarily.

Right now, she lives in another state and the ex has not exercised any parental rights. With a decent lawyer, and the evidence from the previous restraining order, she's got a good chance of getting full custody and another restraining order, and getting the body order (whatever the heck that means) removed. Right now she's living in fear because of something someone at the courthouse told her.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

How can she get a good lawyer, if she can't pay for one herself? What questions can she ask to determine the lawyer's ethics and intentions?


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## MotheringBliss (Mar 20, 2005)

Contrary to mass conditioning, there is absolutely nothing illegal about asserting your Constitutional Rights, a MINIMAL amount of research

details the process of those that have successfully taken full responsibility for their lives in that regard.

Unfortunately, those compelled to do so have suffered immensely before seeking answers to their plight and wish to share experiences gained through pain.

Perhaps one day, when a fellow woman is in fear for her and a child's safety, she will no longer be referred to those that would cripple her financially, emotionally, and spiritually....Shelters are often run like prisons where your holistic parenting practices are not tolerated and failure to comply with every expectation leads to further constraint, intervention and eviction.

Those of you who have not had your soul shredded by a man, who feels empowered by subjugating you in every possible way, may respect

those of us who have. Consider seeking to understand before you form a lynch mob hmmm?

Solutions that do not further bind us to men who mean us harm, regardless of the accepted degree of such, would be considerably more helpful than blind accusations indicating criminal activity and cowardice.

I hope others in similar circumstances find better support here....I knew better.


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## SquidMommy (Jul 13, 2010)

Is it just me, or has there been a spate of low-post-number people coming up with these completely BONKERS stories, trying to wrench everyone's heartstrings, and then taking absolutely NO advice when it's offered?

Yes, I know I also have a comparatively low number of posts...pot, kettle, black...but if I asked for help, I also wouldn't be shooting down every logical chunk of support offered to me only to say, "Yes, Captain Wackadoodle! I will manufacture documentation and try to manipulate the system in much the same way I feel my ex-partner will manipulate the system! Life on the run, girls gone wild! But I'm not wacko, HE IS!" And I'm not discounting that you're a victim. Two wrongs don't make a right, though, no matter how well-meant.

The rest of this is probably harsh, but...Your child's safety shouldn't devolve into a game of who can screw whom the most.

If you really don't want to go to a women's shelter for a lawyer, fine. Don't. Find a women's advocacy group. Go to a local law school and ask if they can recommend a pro bono attorney or court liason. Go to a physician who specializes in health care for abused women and ask if they can recommend any lawyers. The doctor I see actually carries a list of recommendations solely because her practice specializes in healing for traumatized/victimized women. If you're of a faith or spiritual persuasion, go to a large or major facility for that faith and ask for legal recommendations. Virtually any socio-cultural group (race, ethnicity, religion, political persuasion, etc) you can think of will offer suggestions to its members regarding legal affairs, with the caveat that they assume no responsibility for outcomes.

Just because one shelter sucked doesn't mean they all will, nor is it an excuse for you to hurl yourself so far outside the system that if you're found out, you're virtually guaranteed to lose your child. You're IN the system, like it or not, because that body attachment, warrant, court order - IT EXISTS. You cannot avoid it forever; eventually you're going to need health care or have a change in employment or school status, residence, or utilities that will NECESSITATE some sort of official process, and you'll more likely than not be found. Do you really want it to look like you were scheming and plotting and planning ways to actively avoid your legal dealings?

Put on your big-girl undies and get AHEAD of this before it rains down ruination. (I am grumpy because I work with kids who come from families JUST LIKE THIS, and without fail, the kids have SO MANY issues...if mom and/or dad just dealt with life as it came up, Every. Single. Person. Involved. would be so much better off...) Anyone wanna pour me a drink?


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SquidMommy*
> 
> Anyone wanna pour me a drink?


I'll pour you a drink, Squid, and to everyone else on this thread with a grip (so many, but you know who you are).

You know, MotheringBliss (yes, talking to you), when people start throwing around "constitutional" stuff, I have to shake my head in disbelief at the total lack of misunderstanding that people have who throw around "constitutional rights" theories, etc, especially when those theories are based on concepts outside the tri-parte government that "we the people" have established (including hundreds of years of precedent where rights have been evaluated and established). It exhibits a total and complete misunderstanding of the law and the law of the land (which includes the Constitution). I'm not mass conditioned, MotheringBliss (and your accusations of such make me LOL), I've had time in my life to consider all sides and I know and firmly believe in a society which defends victims and prosecutes criminals. My guess is that you're less concerned about the truly disenfranchised in our society, and more concerned about making sure the "Man" doesn't tell you what to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen this rhetoric elsewhere (the whole constitutional rights contingent). In most of these circumstances, these people care more about their own rights than the rights of others. Sorry, but the Constitution doesn't work that way. It's not a one-way street.

I don't say this a lot on MDC (because usually it's irrelevant), but I'm a lawyer and have been for a long time. I'm well versed in the law and I know what it means to defy and ignore the law. A lot of us go into law because we believe in justice and the just application of the law. You want to call that mass conditioning...be my guest. My ethical duty to my clients is to get the best result for them given their circumstances, even if they think they can get around the law or avoid it (which is wrong and produces a worse result). I would never give advice to someone when it goes against my ethical duties and my oath to uphold certain legal principles. I don't need some schlock legal theorist who is not subject to a duty of care or duty of professionalism to tell me I'm mass conditioned.

My rant over, I again say that there are solutions to OP's problem. The solutions involve other things than the stuff that "others" here have proposed. There are people that care in the world, even "men", goddamitt. If OP needs help, she will find help, because there's plenty of it. If she wants to avoid the law and run under the radar, then perhaps she will be running for the rest of her life. Not something that I would choose. Why? Because there are good people out there...there are people who want to help and believe in justice. If you want to take the road the everyone is against you, fine. I happen to know better. Perhaps I'm "mass conditioned." Who knows? Good lord, can't even believe I'm having this conversation at MDC.

Sorry, edited to say that I'm very fairly mean here, but I get so frustrated when really bad (and illegal) advice is given to others and people buy into the concept. This stuff really matters to me. I feel so frustrated. I'm signing off here.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to increase the chances of getting a better lawyer next time?


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## grandmom Ruby (Jul 19, 2012)

I agree with the others, go to a women's shelter. I was involved with one many years ago and there are more there in your situation than you could believe. I will pray for you and the little one...God be with you


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## SquidMommy (Jul 13, 2010)

Pek: All she has to do is communicate. State her expectations, her ability to pay or not pay, differentiate between what she WANTS versus what she NEEDS, and be willing to walk away from several bad-fit lawyers until she finds the one/ones who is/are right for her. Just like MDC says "fire" a midwife or OB or doctor who doesn't want to work WITH you...she can do the same.

Not all lawyers charge up-front fees, or any fees at all. She has very little to lose by saying, "Here is the honest-to-truth situation in my life, and I need A, B, and C in order to keep custody and be safe. However, I want X, Y, and Z, but they aren't absolutely 100% necessary. What can we do together?" The lawyer isn't going to call up her ex afterwards and give him a home address and telephone number. Sheesh.

I feel like we're all up in arms over the plot of some sh!tty Lifetime made-for-TV movie. Gah.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I am glad some constructive advise (more than simply 'go to a shelter') was finally given! It is a shame it was not stated with a bit more reserve.

As someone who was raised being verbally, psychologically, and emotionally abused, I can tell you that I am only learning now that I have the right to stand up for myself in family situations. I imagine for some, all situations may be difficult, or those involving authority figures. To someone just beginning the process, the instinct to avoid confrontations would be great. The tone of the posts suggesting working within the system would make working within the system less appealing. Even the last advise was offensive with the vomiting animation.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

My first choice would be to get a better lawyer.

My second choice would be to expatriate.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I want to make sure this thread sticks to the issue at hand. Please refrain from personal attacks and nasty comments. If you wish to debate the information given, please do so in a respectful helpful way. Don't debate the poster, debate the post. Thanks.

Edited to add, if you want to discuss this, please PM me so that the thread doesn't go off on another tangent. And seriously, I'm just addressing the thread in general, no one in particular.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Sorry, deleted post because it was super argumentative and no good would appear to come from it anyway.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> How can anyone be concerned about the legal rights of such an abusive man? Should he have unsupervised visitation so he can abuse the child, too? And repeatedly, until there is sufficient evidence to finally end the abuse (if there ever is before the child dies as a result of abuse). That kind of thing can and has happened.


Thank you for this! I expected a lot more helpful support when I decided to post about my situation. Honestly, it's so disheartening to see that several other women not only don't support, but believe the court system can provide me and my child with safety. I've been in the realm of the courtroom for a protective order from my ex and it was removed for the sole reason that my ex lives out of state, even though the judge emphasized finding favor with the truth of my case. I was stunned that after she said she found favor with my case that she removed it. My heart sank and my fear rose to an all time high. I've spoken with several attorneys who want to represent me, but strongly believe he will get parenting time and after my child turns two, the law allows the child to be taken out of state. I don't have a doubt in my mind that I would never see my child again...dead or alive. My ex threatened my life and physically abused me while I was pregnant and previous to my pregnancy. I can't risk my life or my child's life. Men who threaten their partner's life or a child's life often times follow through when they've been "crossed," from their point of view. And because they're so manipulative and crafty, it's incredibly difficult to document the abuse because sometimes the wounds are emotional punches and psychological manipulation.

Thank you again for your support. It means more than you know.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1stTimeMama4-4-10*
> 
> Because we live in a society in which the accused are not automatically assumed to be guilty. If this guy is as bad as the OP says he is, the court system will support her. But if you flip it around and only listened to his side without giving her a chance to respond, that would be a major violation of her rights. Being abusive does NOT deprive a parent of his/her rights until and unless they have an opportunity to contest the charges in open court. If you think about it, that really is the only civilized way to handle these volatile situations. That's why the longer the OP refuses to comply with court orders the worse it will be. I am genuinely afraid for this child in light of OP's decision to ignore the good advice given in this thread in favor of the crazy illegal advice suggested by one poster who clearly has no grasp of the American legal system.


True. And that is why rapists and murders walk to street with freedom that their victims no longer have. The court system cannot support something I have little evidence to prove. In many instances, when a man petitions for custody or rights, he is granted them only because the courts think he must be a good guy because most men flea or avoid paying child support. This is a statistic, I've done my research. I have no reason to make it up. In fact, I believe I read the information in an article I found on MDC several months ago regarding feminism, abusive, the legal system and the like.

The difficulty I have with what you suggest is that my ex isn't civilized and because I believe his parents are paying for the decisions they want to be made...that also leaves me between a rock and a hard place. If I knew how to get out of it safely and in a civilized manner, I would most definitely be doing just that. I must ask you, have you been directly or indirectly affected by abuse? Have you been to a women's shelter? Do you know what they're like? Because in my experience, solace cannot be found in a shelter. And unless you have experienced the ramifications of abuse, then how can you speak so strongly about my situation?


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandmom Ruby*
> 
> I agree with the others, go to a women's shelter. I was involved with one many years ago and there are more there in your situation than you could believe. I will pray for you and the little one...God be with you


Thank you for your prayers grandmom ruby! Yes, abuse is all too common and seldom reported.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SquidMommy*
> 
> Is it just me, or has there been a spate of low-post-number people coming up with these completely BONKERS stories, trying to wrench everyone's heartstrings, and then taking absolutely NO advice when it's offered?
> 
> ...


I think you deeply misunderstand what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm not looking to play a game with my ex. I know if he were involved that he would instigate games and threats and ultimately take my child. My ex has connections in other countries and once borders are crossed, the U.S. government is powerless. And yes, it's a shame that because I've had a few terrible experiences, I fear being involved with the legal system I expected would offer protection. I went to those places seeking help! It never even crossed my mind that I would become more entrenched in bad advice and people who didn't care. I believe there are good women and men out there who do good work in helping victims of abuse, but unfortunately, I have not had those experiences. I expected a very different outcome than the one I experienced and I feel like I've already lost a lot and I'm not willing to risk losing my child or my child losing me.

I also don't appreciate that because you're grumpy, you're taking out frustration from your job on my situation, which you only have a glimpse of. I also do not appreciate that you're categorizing my "JUST LIKE THIS" situation. I do not just deal with life as it comes. And I find it incredibly difficult to believe that "every single person involved would be so much better off" if people put on their "big-girl" panties. I didn't want to run or be hunted or be abused or rapped or manipulated or be raising a child as a single woman...none of those things were what I wanted. What I do want is for my child to grow up in a healthy home surrounded by truth and love, which is what I strive for on a daily basis.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for how to increase the chances of getting a better lawyer next time?


I echo this question. Another commenter suggested the idea that communicating what I want with my lawyer would bring success and a good lawyer-client relationship. I was abundantly clear with the lawyer provided to me by the organization I initially went to that helps battered women. My lawyer lied to me, misrepresented herself, and ultimately told my ex I had the child. I had been nothing short of clear and repetitive that I did not want him to know and she agreed she wouldn't.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I think the point was that you found a not-so-good lawyer the first time around, and that there ARE good lawyers out there who can and will help you. Just b/c the first shelter/attorney you found wasn't a good fit doesn't mean that finding help through a shelter and consulting an attorney is a bad idea. And just b/c you made a horrible choice of a mate the first time doesn't mean all men are going to treat you this way. You do know that, right?


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Wow OP. I have no advice but you will be in my thoughts and prayers. I'm sorry you're getting spanked so hard on this forum for wanting to protect your child. Clearly people are lacking in their understanding of the dynamics of abuse. As a social worker, I agree that the system and the courts especially have a habit of not protecting children. I would be absolutely terrified in your shoes. Wishing you peace and strength.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Wow OP. I have no advice but you will be in my thoughts and prayers. I'm sorry you're getting spanked so hard on this forum for wanting to protect your child. Clearly people are lacking in their understanding of the dynamics of abuse. As a social worker, I agree that the system and the courts especially have a habit of not protecting children. I would be absolutely terrified in your shoes. Wishing you peace and strength.


Yes, but the last time I remember a woman who feared for her children's safety took legal advice from a bunch of women on MDC who told her to go run and hide and go extralegal and write special letters about asserting her special rights --- she wound up losing her children permanently to the abuser, because she did something grossly illegal that multiple people with actual knowledge of actual law had said not to do.

Those of us who saw that go down -- and who are familiar with the roots and history of some of the "constitutional law tactics" recommended above, are loath to see it happen again.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Yes, but the last time I remember a woman who feared for her children's safety took legal advice from a bunch of women on MDC who told her to go run and hide and go extralegal and write special letters about asserting her special rights --- she wound up losing her children _permanently_ to the abuser, because she did something _grossly illegal_ that multiple people with actual knowledge of actual law had said _not_ to do.
> 
> Those of us who saw that go down -- and who are familiar with the roots and history of some of the "constitutional law tactics" recommended above, are loath to see it happen again.


Well I wasn't around to see that and regardless, I am NOT suggesting she do anything illegal or that any advice given by actuals lawyers is anything but good advice. However, being accused of making up the story and it being out of a lifetime movie is just mean. Also, I think there are nicer ways to suggest things to OP without minimizing her experiences. Some people seem to not believe that this guy is abusive or something, or that there's another side to the story and this guy deserves a relationship with his kid. Also telling someone to put on their big girl undies?!?! And then 100 people give that post a thumbs up? I find that really unsupportive. Catscradle had some legitimate good advice. Said nicely. Several other posts were just plain mean. All OP wants to do is protect her kid. Maybe everyone doesn't agree with how she's contemplating handling it, but, i don't know why people have to be so nasty about saying so.


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## 1stTimeMama4-4-10 (Feb 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *honeybaby1*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually yes. My mother was in an abusive relationship for 20 years before she died suddenly without explanations last year. That man abused me and my brothers. That man is trying to steal everything my mother left to us and destroy what is left of my family. I know abuse.

Because of my past, I got a degree in social work. I worked at a DV shelter for a year. I counseled battered women. I safety planned with them. I supported them in the legal system when they sought legal assistance. It was heaetbreaking so I decided to go to law school. I graduated, passed the bar, and represented CPS for the last 5 years.

I know my shit and I am not talking out my ass. I have seen women try to take things into their own hands, flee my state, and have the child forcibly removed from her and placed back in my state with the abuser. It's real and its tragic. It is also avoidable. The longer you evade the authorities the more likely it is that your chikd will be removed from your care. Then you will have to prive not only that your ex is dangerous but that you are not. And every illegal action you take weakens your case. So do what you want but the only option you have is to place your trust in the legal system an cooperate. It may not be the best option, but there is no alternative.

Good luck.


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## honeybaby1 (Jul 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1stTimeMama4-4-10*
> 
> Actually yes. My mother was in an abusive relationship for 20 years before she died suddenly without explanations last year. That man abused me and my brothers. That man is trying to steal everything my mother left to us and destroy what is left of my family. I know abuse.
> Because of my past, I got a degree in social work. I worked at a DV shelter for a year. I counseled battered women. I safety planned with them. I supported them in the legal system when they sought legal assistance. It was heaetbreaking so I decided to go to law school. I graduated, passed the bar, and represented CPS for the last 5 years.
> ...


I realize tone is sometimes difficult to convey via these messages, but I wasn't trying to question you in a negative manner, as if to say you have to right to share your opinions. I was asking because some of my friends, and possibly women on this board, have very strong opinions about how I should handle things when they haven't experienced abuse themselves. Of course, they are just that, opinions, but ultimately the choices are mine to make.

And while you do know abuse, even still, would you agree that while every abusive situation is painful that they're still all unique in some manner? And sexual abuse is also quite a different kind of personal invasion and pain than emotional or physical abuse and I experienced all three. I am by no means downplaying what you experienced, nor would I ever think that because _I know_ abuse that it means I know your pain because it's always different. I simply think (or rather, thought) that women and men who have experienced abuse often times seem to take a different and I would even say more kind approach to someone who is dealing with a situation like mine.

It took a lot for me to post what I did and really that wasn't even the half of it. I was hoping to find encouragement, constructive help, and safe alternatives. I understand you're educated and experienced and know the consequences a mother in my shoes can face if she is found, but if you feared losing your life or your child being sexually abused, physically abused, or killed... which risk would you take? Hiding forever or putting yourself and child in danger? I choose hiding. I was just hoping there might be some suggestions or ideas that would prevent that but also keep my ex far away and remove the body attachment. So either no one knows of that solution or it just doesn't exist.

I respect the course you took to work in such a difficult field, really I do. You said it's a heartbreaking job and it most definitely is for various reasons, but some of those reasons have to do with holes and flaws in a system that doesn't really protect women and children all the time. And because of that, I'm doing what I think is right. I don't mean to imply to screw you attitude either. I feel I've been very respectful in my replies, which I'm sad to say cannot me said for all of those who have replied.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

You know how, sometimes, when we see our kids about to run across the street, and a car is coming, and we yell? Some moms even lose control and spank, because they are just so scared. For a minute, they saw their child run over in their minds, and they lose control, because they are so scared.

I think that's what happened in this thread. OP, I don't think anyone was being disrespectful. I just think this is such a terrible situation, that it is making emotions run high everywhere. You are being extra sensitive for good reason. You feel in fear of your very life and your child's life. It's a horrible, tragic thing. On the other side of it, some commenters here have experience with these cases, and it's like they're watching you about to run across the street. They've seen women like you lose their child, permanently. They desperately don't want that to happen to you, and I think that fully explains some gruffness in the style of some posts here.

I've read the whole thread and I can't possibly imagine anyone is trying deliberately to be cruel to a poor, abused, single mom. I think that the urgency of the case has simply prompted some people to use strong language that a less dire situation would not have warranted.

Your situation is very scary, OP. It is true that if you find lawyers and take this to court, your abusive ex could end up with some parental time. He also could not, but it is a risk. Running carries its own set of risks, but its very biggest risk is that they could take your child away, permanently, and give your child to your ex. That would be the worst thing ever.

I understand how you feel trapped. You feel like there's nothing you can do to keep him totally away from you, to keep you totally safe. This breaks my heart. Please weigh your risks carefully.


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## MotheringBliss (Mar 20, 2005)

There are those who live to torture. A court order is quite amusing to them. Have you checked the deep web yet HB?

If you're unfamiliar, read many different security protocol sources first, be confident before seeking resources there.

Here's the basics: http://thebotnet.com/guides-and-tutorials/49828-how-to-access-the-hidden-wiki/

Watch your step and brace for more than you ever wanted to be aware of.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

For confidentiality reasons, this post may be a bit vague, but I wanted to respond.

Many years ago, I was in a similar position to the OP. Add that my ex was a trained mercenary, and had serious PTSD, leftover from Viet Nam. He also had (has) friends who are government level computer hackers. Like the OP, there was no police or other official record of the abuse or threats on our lives. Ex was totally homicidal at the time we left, and I know he holds a grudge.

My 2 kids were preschoolers when I finally got the nerve to leave. I was able to get to a state where I had no history or connections. I avoided choosing any area where I had family, friends, or had ever mentioned being attracted to. I had called ahead, and and arranged a stay in a women's shelter. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life! It was a supportive environment, and my story was believed. I got good, pro bono, legal advice. I changed my name, and those of my kids, in a sealed record. We also were able to change our Social Security numbers, unlinked to the old records, using a federal program to support domestic violence victims. I told my story to a judge who chose not to require any notification to the ex. For several years, I used a free, state-run, mail forwarding service for DV victims. I avoided all contact with anyone from my prior life. I occasionally contacted my closest family members (from other people's phones, when I was visiting other states) to let them know I was OK.

It has not been easy, starting over from scratch. I was on welfare and also racked up huge student loans while I started a new career. I did not try to bring my college degrees with me, or professional certification, because I could not be certain the link would not be traced. I couldn't believe that I had to get a GED! I now have a bachelors degree, in an entirely unrelated field, and a job that I love. My children were allowed to grow up without fear of their father. Over the years, I have lived in several states, intentionally leaving as little trail as possible. I now feel confident enough to re-establish contact with my family, and my Mom and sisters and I are very close. The ex has contacted some family members over the years, but got no info about me. He seems to have given up, as there has been no contact for nearly 10 years. I basically dropped all contact with old friends, and don't feel free to look them up on Facebook or whatever. I still take care not to mention identifying details online, and I have But all in all, my life is pretty darn good.

My message to the OP: It can be done, and it is worth it. I don't have any specific advice on how to start a new life. I mainly wanted to say that I was able to work mostly within the system, using programs that helped me set up an entirely new identity. I am living without fear, and my kids have grown up pretty normal.


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## 1stTimeMama4-4-10 (Feb 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> My message to the OP: It can be done, and it is worth it. I don't have any specific advice on how to start a new life. I mainly wanted to say that I was able to work mostly within the system, using programs that helped me set up an entirely new identity. I am living without fear, and my kids have grown up pretty normal.


The most important part of this message is that it IS possible to protect yourself while still operating within the system. I know you are certain that the system won't protect you, but I can say that isn't accurate. You have to access it before it can protect you though. While you run, the system will work against you.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1stTimeMama4-4-10*
> 
> I know my shit and I am not talking out my ass. I *have seen women try to take things into their own hands, flee my state, and have the child forcibly removed from her and placed back in my state with the abuser. It's real and its tragic. It is also avoidable. The longer you evade the authorities the more likely it is that your child will be removed from your care*. Then you will have to prive not only that your ex is dangerous but that you are not. And every illegal action you take weakens your case. So do what you want but the only option you have is to place your trust in the legal system an cooperate. It may not be the best option, but there is no alternative.
> Good luck.


This, OP, is what I'm worried about. I would hate to see your fear of the system mean that your child is going to grow up with this man.


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## SquidMommy (Jul 13, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> This, OP, is what I'm worried about. I would hate to see your fear of the system mean that your child is going to grow up with this man.


Thank you. Whether or not anyone liked my tone, THIS is my point. Though admittedly sarcasm didn't translate well in print. I personally found this whole thing to be a bit of a perfect storm thread, and I wasn't the only one. A topic sure to create strong feelings on both sides, with an evil ex, a desperate mama, abuse, pursuit, threats, endless money, legal failings...if this is the life you're going through, I feel for you, because that's completely miserable and nobody should have to live like that.

I'm not attacking you - I don't know you - but I DO think that your plan of "going dark" is a really bad idea. Not you. Just the plan.

The guy you were with is completely looloo-bonkers-whacko, right? Right. We agree. The solution isn't going to be to work some sort of skirt-the-law magic...if his money ever catches up with you - and odds are good it will because people with the means to pursue things, do - any half decent lawyer is going to start calling YOU the problem for trying to work outside what the majority of people consider to be "the usual methods." Those usual methods are imperfect, but they're what we have as a solution for a majority of people. If and when you walk too far outside of those bounds and get called out on it, you will likely lose your case to your ex. Not because he's a better parenting choice, but because he can lean back, put his feet up, and say, "Well, at least I got a lawyer - she was too busy running around the country/continent trying to hide my offspring."

And ESPECIALLY because this involves your child, do you really want to take the risk? Ten crappy lawyers who waste your time but don't change custody arrangements are still WAY better than the alternative of one well-intentioned person who gives you bad advice you follow and wastes your child's life.

I also posted a long list, thought not exhaustive, of community resources to look to for possible legal referrals. Use a burner phone if you're worried about being located. You may be pointed to firms/individuals who have experience with whatever it is you're trying to achieve. And don't pay anyone until you're sure you like them. And make sure you can dump them if they misrepresent themselves.

And with that, I'm checking out of this thread. I tried, I clarified. If anyone thinks I'm still being catty, please feel free to address me privately. I don't want to give the wrong idea or perception.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I want to comment because it sucks when your threads have thousands of views and only a few contentious comments. I'm struggling with what to say. I am *extremely* anti-authoritarian. I am the all grown up version of your daughter... only my mother never protected me. My mother put me in vulnerable, dangerous positions over and over and refuses to accept any responsibility for it.

I don't know what you should do. I'll be honest and say it scares the shit of me to think of you trying to hide outside the system now. Times aren't like they were. It's a lot harder to get lost than it has been at any point in history. And the probable outcome if you are found is so bad. Oh it's scary. There are government programs to help fleeing domestic violence survivors.

I'm scared for you. I'm not judging or thinking anything negative. The system didn't do much to help me until after the fact. The state of California took one look at my father's confession and decided they were ok with paying for my therapy for the rest of my life. I don't have a lot of faith in the system. (I don't let them pay for my therapy anymore either. I'm a rich person. I can afford it.)

I have lived with a lot of fear in my life. Serious terror and harm. I don't know what you are feeling but I have a good imagination. I've been thinking about you for a while. I'm sorry your life is this hard. I'm so terribly sorry.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

OP... I was in a similar situation as yours a year and a half ago, only he never threatened to kill me. Almost everything else was like your situation. I don't have any good advice, except, apparently it CAN be done, but even so, whatever you choose to do is a risk. If you stay out of the system, which is getting harder and harder to do these days and will only get harder as technology increases, you will keep your child safe... until you get caught. Then, you will lose your child almost definitely. If you fight him in court (your best bet is a Women's Shelter with a free lawyer or Legal Aid), he will likely get SOME parenting time- my son's father gets Supervised Visitation, but because of the distance, it's not often. Please get a lawyer. I'm sure everyone here means well, but the law is a very tricky thing with some crazy loopholes and there's no room for mistakes. I have some questions...

How old is your child? (Daughter, right?) The longer she's been with you, the less likely the judge would take her from you, especially with her having NO relationship with her father.

Has Paternity been proven yet? If you haven't signed anything stating that you know he's the father, he can't legally get visitation without being legally declared the father, which would require a DNA test. It wouldn't stop visitation, but it would stall it.

Someone said this- "You say you relocated to another state. If you have been in that state for at least 6 months and can prove residence for yourself and your child during that time, AND your ex filed for custody/visitation AFTER you had been in that state for 6 months, you can have the entire action either dismissed outright or at least transferred to your state. If your ex filed for custody BEFORE the six months was up, then his state is the state that retains jurisdiction and all of the orders in that state are VALID." Which state- yours or his- should it legally be held in court in?

I was in a similar situation. I got more of the "I'll take him and leave the country with him and you'll never see him again" and none of that "I'll kill you" bit, but I feel for you- I know what you're going from, I know the terror of the "what if". You'll be in my prayers tonight.


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