# When they deliberately misbehave . . .



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I hate the word "misbehave" but I can't think of anything else to describe what I'm talking about.

Tonight for example. I had just finished folding all the laundry. We are all sitting in the living room - dh and ds are watching baseball. I get up to get ds some pistachios and a glass of water. Ds goes over to the stack of shirts, and I ask him if he wants to help me carry them to the bedroom. He says no, and motions that he wants to push them over. I say "Please don't push those over, I just finished folding them." He walks back over towards dh. I go further into the kitchen. I hear dh say "Don't push those over, mommy just folded those. Let's watch the game." Ds looks over at us, and pushes the stack of shirts over. I tell him I'm upset that he did that, and ask him to help me pick them up. He says "No" and walks away. (He is 3yo by the way.)

So, what am I supposed to do? I feel like just letting him do this without punishment or consequence is letting him get away with being a brat. But what is the 'natural' consequence to this? I feel like at this point we should only have to go so far in making sure he doesn't have access to every little thing. He knew full well that he wasn't supposed to push the shirts over, and I don't think that I should have to run around putting them away a milisecond after they are folded just so the little terrorist doesn't get a hold of them, you know?

How do you handle these kinds of situations?


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Well, clearly you are not delivering enough raspberries to the tummy, or threats to tickle his bottom, or giving him a fun romp and laugh till he collapses in a cuddle.

This type of close relationship building makes "helping mummy" have more meaning. 3 year olds are not there watch sport or follow instructions, but are there to figure out what is what.

hope this helps

a


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

IME, parents are not allowed to watch TV in the evening with a 3 yo in the house. They have to actually play ball with the young one, not watch it on a flat screen.

Even my 12 yo gets me up off the couch to shoot hoops with him, rather than watch a full Red Sox game.

Never leave unprotected laundry at toddler level! LOL!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Never leave unprotected laundry at toddler level!
Have to agree with this one!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I feel like just letting him do this without punishment or consequence is letting him get away with being a brat.

This has been indoctorinated into you by society--"Nip it in the bud!". But this philosophy makes it really difficult to practice gd. Too adversarial. I've had to conciously reject this philosophy, and my relationship with dd has benefitted.

When my dd deliberately acts inappropriately, that is her way of telling me that something is wrong in her world. She has a need. An anxiety. She's bored. She's tired. She's hungry. Etc. When she feels right, she acts right. When she acts inappropriately, I become a detective. What is going on here?

Your honest reaction to him dumping the laundry sent the message that it was inappropriate (but he already knew that). If it is important to you that he helps clean up the mess, you could try meeting the need first and then return to the mess together "I see you need some attention. How about we read a book first, and then we clean up this mess?". I also role play with dd (in calm moments) how to get her needs met without acting inappropriately: "I need a hug" "I really need some attention right now" etc. Sometimes she actually uses them!









Also, I agree with prev posters re: tv. Dd usually acts out if the tv is on, because it sucks everyones attention right into the screen. A parent watching tv might as well not even be home. Dh and I don't watch tv until she is asleep.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Never leave unprotected laundry at toddler level! LOL!









It's sometimes too hard for *me* to resist diving onto a pile of laundry. I can only imagine how it is for a 3-year-old - it's all so soft and the stacks look as though they just *want* to topple.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Okay, just to clarify: We rarely watch tv in the evening. Ds was asking dh to watch baseball. They had just come back from being out at the park for almost 2 hours. Trust me, this kid is not attention deprived.

Quote:

Well, clearly you are not delivering enough raspberries to the tummy, or threats to tickle his bottom, or giving him a fun romp and laugh till he collapses in a cuddle.

This type of close relationship building makes "helping mummy" have more meaning. 3 year olds are not there watch sport or follow instructions, but are there to figure out what is what.
I'm trying hard not to get upset about this, even though I am pregnant and hormonal. This is practically all I do all day with ds. Seriously, I am not exaggerating. Physical play is his favorite, and even though I am 8.5 months pregnant, I chase him up and down the house, tickle and romp around on the couch and beds.

I have to admit that I'm a little shocked that what everyone got out of my post is that he shouldn't be watching tv, that we don't give him enough attention, or that I don't have a close enough relationship with him. The laundry incident was just the most recent example. There are many examples, but I think I will just go figure it out on my own.


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## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
The laundry incident was just the most recent example. There are many examples, but I think I will just go figure it out on my own.

Don't go away, oceanbaby! I love your posts--your honesty and how you are trying so hard to figure this all out. It's all-too easy to get misunderstood in this medium, and it's touchy because you're talking about your heartfelt parenting struggles. It's happened to me, too. I find, too, that when I try to offer advice I inadvertently make simplifying assumptions about what the mom is already doing/thinking.







:

I mostly lurk so this may sound hollow, but I'd miss you if you stopped sharing your conundrums and insights. Hang in there, oceanbaby--we're all in this together.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I think some of these responses are incredibly self-righteous and apalling; no wonder i don't ask questions in this forum







. You have all instantly jumped to the conclusion that she never plays with her child, etc.; ridiculous and shortsighted - you didn't even ask, just ASSumed. I think you all have been paying NO attention to any of oceanbaby's other posts, where it would be patently obvious what a hands-on, loving mother she is and just hwo much attention her boy gets! Get off your high horses, for crimeny's sake!

To the OP (and please don't go away, i love your posts







): if i felt i wanted him to be distracted by the TV while i watched (gasps from those so holier than thou that you would NEVER let your kid watch TV







), i would put something on that HE likes. If you opt for no TV, which probably IS best







, i would do one of two things, maybe even both: i would give him a pile of the stuff that was unfolded for him to romp in, and also let him 'help' me fold. Even make it educational and teach him how to fold properly; i mean, this is the way we make good husbands out of our sons







.

I might also tell him that the stacks, though you understand how inviting and fun for him to play in, are not for messing with, and offer him alternatives, maybe a few feet away from the folding area, that he can mess with - some paper to crunch up, rags or diapers to toss around and roll in.

HTH - don't pay attention to the meanies







.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chemigogo*
You have all instantly jumped to the conclusion that she never plays with her child, etc.; ridiculous and shortsighted - you didn't even ask, just ASSumed. I think you all have been paying NO attention to any of oceanbaby's other posts, where it would be patently obvious what a hands-on, loving mother she is and just hwo much attention her boy gets! Get off your high horses, for crimeny's sake![/b]

I think you're overusing "you all." That was one post, by Alexander (and it read to me to be a little TIC, though I don't know if he actually meant it that way and I can see how oceanbaby wouldn't take it that way). The rest of us were merely chuckling about toddlers and laundry. No one is being "mean." Perhaps you should think of this as an in-person conversation where oceanbaby would present her dilemma. It would most likely be followed by people empathizing and chuckling at their own experiences... that's the way people relate and diffuse situations in order to get to the core issue.

I know, simply from what I've read here, how much time oceanbaby spends thinking about parenting and think that she's a great mama.

And I didn't have any input initially because it's something I struggle with, as well. The toddler and laundry thing struck me as particularly funny because I was having the same "issue" with ds the other night and ended up in rolling in the laundry myself. (Of course, I'm not 8-1/2 months pregnant.)

Anyway, oceanbaby - what I do find is that many of these "intentionally misbehaving" incidents can be "fixed" by adjusting my expectations. The laundry example: It's too much for ds to handle if I leave laundry around. Being 3, his impulse tells him to jump on it and he doesn't really have enough impulse control yet to override. So, if I don't want it jumped on or knocked over, I need to put it out of his reach. To expect him to abstain is just too much. The other reasons he misbehaves (or gets ornery) are hunger and fatigue - and he'll rarely, even at 3, tell me when he's experiencing these. (He's better at admitting hunger, but he'd *never* cop to being tired. :LOL)

Quote:

I would do one of two things, maybe even both: i would give him a pile of the stuff that was unfolded for him to romp in, and also let him 'help' me fold. Even make it educational and teach him how to fold properly; i mean, this is the way we make good husbands out of our sons







.
This is a great idea. Maybe pull out the kitchen towels (since they're pretty quick to refold) and let him work on those.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

i would give him a pile of the stuff that was unfolded for him to romp in, and also let him 'help' me fold. Even make it educational and teach him how to fold properly; i mean, this is the way we make good husbands out of our sons .
Yup. That's about perfect. Even in the most mundane encounter with your child, like the example above, you're still aiming for the eventual outcome, a healthy, sensitive adult.

Quote:

But what is the 'natural' consequence to this?
Well, there are natural consequences and "logical" consequences. Children appreciate and benefit from both. I don't think there was a natural consequence to this situation. Other than, he pushed the pile over, the clothes fell down. Kids have an innate sense of fairness and if you implement some punitive consequence that is un laundry related, that will not be fair. (But I realize you're not likely to do that, this being a gd forum. )

But with a 3 y.o. you truely are limited as to what you can do. I've got a 9 y.o. and a 5 y.o. I've decided sometimes you don't actually "parent" your child out of any particular bad behavior when they're 3. You just wait it out. That is all you can do. They grow out of certain misbehaviors. Maybe have your ds help take a handful of clothes to be put away. Perhaps that, and your tone of voice is the only appropriate consequence now.

Kids come with different personalities and some simply like watching you get angry more than others do. My dd loved getting me angry doing impish things (did I just describe her that way??







) more than ds did. And remember that when you're here at mdc. Take everyone's advice remembering that their answers are colored by their experiences with their own children.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Personally, I hate folding laundry so if it is already folded, I guard it with my life!

Anyway...

I'd probably have allowed myself to look and feel dissappointed - it is an honest reaction and the 3yo sees it. I'd also ask him to sit quietly while I re-folded the laundry. He could watch me or sit with DH, but he'd have to sit quietly and not run around/play during that time. He disobeyed and made a mess, and if he can't clean it, well, he'll just have to wait while I do before he can do anything else.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I think some of these responses are incredibly self-righteous and apalling; no wonder i don't ask questions in this forum . You have all instantly jumped to the conclusion that she never plays with her child, etc.; ridiculous and shortsighted - you didn't even ask, just ASSumed. I think you all have been paying NO attention to any of oceanbaby's other posts, where it would be patently obvious what a hands-on, loving mother she is and just hwo much attention her boy gets! Get off your high horses, for crimeny's sake!
Wow. That hurt my feelings incredibly.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I can totally understand why oceanbaby was upset at the responses. Even I found them a bit harsh. She was just using that situation as an example, and I think the issue of the TV, not enough play, etc was focussed on a bit too much given there was no mention of the particular circumstances. Like for all we know, it was a rare time when the child requested a show, or maybe the kid had been out playing all day. It's helpful to "suggest" these as causes, without dismissing TV - heck, we have the TV on every night and it certainly has never made DD a devil to deal with.

With that said, I don't agree with chemigogo that this constitutes a normal reaction from members of this board. I have been very active in this forum (since I'm thick in the middle of GD issues with my 2 year old) and the VAST majority of "help me figure this out" threads are met with respect, support, wonderful information. I don't even think the replies here were all that harsh, but I think they may have been worded a bit better, because I felt the sting in the words, too (and I'm usually not very sensitive to that).

So...oceanbaby <<hugs>>....I actually am not sure what to do. My 2 year old has gone and done things I've specifically not asked her to do, and I've come to conclude she isn't ready for the responsibility of just "obeying" me. I don't know if that applies to your 3 year old or not (ask me when I learn all about "3", lol). But my first reaction is to say that I would have 1) shown my displeasure quite clearly. NOT punitively, but so DD gets the message that what she did upset mama very much. and I might point out how much it sucks that I have to do more work now, espeically without a helper...then 2) I would have made a mental note not to leave laundry piles around, or whatever else DD can wreck.

But I still think there's a "3)" in there somewhere, and I'm hoping for some good replies!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Oceanbaby,
I apologize if my post offended you. I honestly meant it in a helpful tone.

I know that you give your ds lots of attention, and I have no problem with kids watching limited tv (it is just dh and I that can not watch tv with her awake--makes her act out). My dd is watching a video right now







. And I know from your wonderful posts that you have a loving relationship with your son.

The intention of my post was to show how *I interpret misbehavior. I had hoped it would be reassuring--certainly didn't mean for it to be offensive.

Actually, since you mentioned that they had just been at the park for 2 hours, it makes even more sense that he might be acting out. Tired, hungry, overheated, dehydrated.....these are the natural results of hard play at the park. Also, the transition from active outdoor play to quiet indoor activity may have left him antsy.

But my main point is that it isn't a matter of: Punish behavior or have a brat. That is what my mother believes, and most of my irl mom friends. That is what I believed until about a year ago. Now I believe differently. And I believe that dd behaves better because I am no longer worried about that eventuality.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

We watch TV. I love TV. I just wasn't able to focus on a whole show when my kids were 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Even if a 3 yo requests watching baseball, his att'n span is short. 3 mins of TV baseball may well have been enough. Sucks, huh? Just when an adult is getting into it! Baseball is slow-moving most of the time and he wouldn't get the announcers' jokes.

I hope I didn't imply you don't give your kid enough attention. I wouldn't presume to judge your life in general, just focus on the specific situation.

Now as for laundry, or even in other "dangerous" situations, this is what I learned from How to Talk So Kids will Listen. Don't tell kids what they can't do. Tell them what they can do. If he is aiming for the folded clothes, don't say Don't push those ever. Say: the laundry is not for dumping. Push over the books, or blocks or couch pillows, or whatever. So he knows what is acceptable.

Its like telling someone not to think of elephants. As soon as you do, all they can see in their mind is--elephants.

Alternatively just put your laundry into a basket as you fold it, and put it up when he is near. He is just 3 and not a terrorist.

Someone brought up another dumping situaion, crayons in an open box. "Crayons are not for dumping, crayons are for drawing with. We take them out of the box one at a time. Like this, see?" (model it).


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
Wow. That hurt my feelings incredibly.









T Mamaduck... I'm a chronic lurker, so I don't know if my opinion carries much weight, but I have trouble imagining a poster much *less* self-righteous than you. I look forward to reading your responses in GD threads particularly.

For the OP... I think at least one person already said this, but it seems like kids often do this sort of stuff under a particular set of circumstances. If they're tired, or hungry, or ate something that doesn't agree with them (or that they're mildly allergic to,) or bothered by something you're doing/not doing, they act out, YK? You mentioned that he does stuff like this a lot. Is there maybe some common factor that could be setting him off?

I can totally believe that it's maddening for you in the moment. It sounds to me like you kept your cool really well, which I think is crucial in the long run.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Okay, I'm back, and hopefully with quelled emotions this time. I appreciate that most of you were able to see that I'm not some neglectful mom who parks her kid in front of the tv all day and then wonders why they are acting up.

Let me restart my post, because I really don't think the specific circumstances had anything to do with what happened.

In general, how do you respond when your child deliberately does something that they KNOW they aren't supposed to do, even after you've done your best at explaining, distracting, etc.?

I didn't want to use the word brat in my OP, but I was rushed to type it and just didn't have time to think of a better way to get my point across. I think the reason this is hard for me is that I don't necessarily think that you have to punish your kids in order not to raise 'brats.' But there are times where I feel like ds is pushing me just to see what will happen, and if 'nothing' consistently happens, then he will just kind of get out of control you know? He already has a bossy streak in him that we are constantly working with, but he really needs to have limits set sometimes.

Overall he is a well behaved, very reasonable little kid. But these moments of deliberate 'disobedience' are starting to happen a bit more often, and I'm just not sure how, if at all, I should be responding to them. As I alluded to in my OP, things that have a logical or natural consequence are easy for us - if he won't stop hitting the window with the bat, the bat needs to go away. But the out of the blue, 'whatcha gonna do about it' moments are leaving me a bit stumped.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I apologize sincerely for my overreaction. My strongest frustration was with the first poster, really, but i shouldn't have gone off like that, and i am sorry








:.

Mamaduck - I am also specifically sorry that i hurt YOUR feelings, i really did not mean to, but that does not mean that your feelings are not valid.

I guess i'm just frustrated with the whole Gentle Discipline thing, in general, and probably should not post here







. Sometimes it seems that you give and give and lavish attention upon love, and then when you have an issue of boundaries or what have you with your child, all anyone tells you is to love on him more! Nothing can be the least punitive, nothing can be corrective, you can't really expect a child less than ten to behave in a mannerly way, or do ANYTHING that teaches him how to live respectfully in his family unit.

I know that my perceptions are largely off base, but this is how i feel so often when i browse here, to be honest. I get terribly frustrated, but i should not take it out on you sweet people who are doing your best, just as i am.


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## flight (Feb 3, 2004)

Sometimes I just yell.







: If I've got my brain turned on, though, I say something like, "Geez, now I have to put all this laundry away AGAIN, PLUS I'm mad cause you did something you knew I wouldn't like!"

Either that or a really neutral "Pick those up please." If he doesn't, I just ignore him until he asks me for something, and then tell him, "I can help you with that after you help me with the laundry. Here's a sock."


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## Sasha_girl (Feb 19, 2003)

You've gotten some good advice, which I am also taking notes on. I just wanted to let you know that I'm having the exact same problem with my 3 year old. You're certainly not alone.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I apologize sincerely for my overreaction. My strongest frustration was with the first poster, really, but i shouldn't have gone off like that, and i am sorry .

Mamaduck - I am also specifically sorry that i hurt YOUR feelings, i really did not mean to, but that does not mean that your feelings are not valid.
Aw, Chem! I feel better already.

I've spent quite a few years strategically manuevering my laundry piles so that nobody can mess them up. Heh.

Quote:

Nothing can be the least punitive, nothing can be corrective, you can't really expect a child less than ten to behave in a mannerly way, or do ANYTHING that teaches him how to live respectfully in his family unit
I think this would make an excellent thread!


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

oceanbaby, I seem to have a somewhat different interpretation than other folks here. While I certainly agree that toddlers have limited impulse control, and that it worsens with discomforts like fatigue or hunger, to attribute this *only* to lack of impulse control does our kids a great disservice. It implies that there is no intelligence behind their actions, and reduces them to simple animals who are acting on instinct. Further, by forgetting about the intelligence behind their actions and dealing with it strictly by avoidance, we run the danger of failing to teach our kids *how* to control those impulses.

My daughter is 2y3m. She also does "bad" things deliberately, as you described. I know that impulse control is absolutely part of it, but figuring out the rules and how she fits into them is also a *huge* part. By "rules" I don't mean an itemized list of household regulations, but rather how the world works, what is expected of her and what she can expect of other people. For instance, Talia knows that certain doors are "supposed" to be closed, because they are always that way. When I am doing laundry and leave the laundry room door open, she will scoot by me and shut it every sixty seconds. That is a "rule" she learned by observation. She knows when we get into the car, she sits in her seat and gets strapped in. So she starts putting her arms through the straps, because that's how things work. When I give her yogurt, she peels off the lid and puts it in the trash, and later puts the cup in the sink, because that's how I've asked her to do it in the past. I've never forced her to do these things - rather, I modeled them for her and when she was in a willing kind of mood I asked her to do them, and thus she learned that that's how they are done. They are as much rules about actions as they are about interpersonal interactions - with the door, she doesn't understand why suddenly I'm leaving it open, and she's fixing it for me.

When we ask our kids not to do things that appeal to them, such as spilling the laundry, suddenly they realize there are new rules to learn - not just "don't spill the laundry" but interpersonal rules: Does Mommy really mean this, what will she do if I do it anyway, how important *is* this rule? By underplaying the situation when it happens, we teach that the rule is "Mommy doesn't really mean these things," and, "this rule wasn't important." By trying to avoid all future incidents by never allowing the child near laundry again, we fail to set our child up to learn how to control those impulses, and avoid situations where any rules may be applied.

Now, the "traditional" approach to this, as is evident by so many people griping about their kid's grandparents who refuse to move expensive candlesticks off of coffee tables and things like that, is to force a child to obey via punishment. A more modern approach is to chase a child around 24/7, never being more than a foot from the child, to redirect him constantly. Obviously, there are problems with both. I don't think we need to go into the former example... The latter example is theoretically workable, but you'd never get that laundry done in the first place if you were doing that. It's rather impractical, even for the best of us.

This is a very important concept to remember when we're dealing with these situations. While I wouldn't punish Talia for doing this, I would - as a previous poster suggested - require her to help me clean up, and if she wouldn't participate I wouldn't allow her to do anything else until I was done, all the while letting her see my displeasure. I know some people would consider my restriction of her activity to be punishment, but I see it as natural consequence. We are all expected to expend our own energy to fix the problems we cause, and our kids need to learn this no less than they learn that jumping off the countertop can hurt or squeezing the juice box while drinking will cause them to choke and sputter.

Then, rather than avoid the situation by putting the laundry away immediately, I'd probably babysit it to make sure she understands that I'm serious about this rule and I won't allow it to be broken again.

In the future, I'd try to be more observant of those times when she's more impulsive than usual - say, when she's tired; At those times, I would avoid potential large situations like this. I know that she'll find _something_ impulsive and "bad" to do when she's in that kind of mood, but I'd try to limit the things in her environment to things are easier for me to deal with, physically or emotionally (by physically, I mean something that won't take me 30 minutes to fix). At times when she's more open to interaction, I'd bring the laundry out and ask her to help me with it. Thus, she'd have the opportunity to learn the interpersonal type rules in situations that are a bit less stressful for all of us, and learn the physical type rules when she's in more of a mood to do so. But, when accidentally faced with a larger situation like this, I wouldn't ignore it under the pretense of "kids just don't have impulse control and shouldn't be held responsible for their actions."


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
If it is important to you that he helps clean up the mess, you could try meeting the need first and then return to the mess together "I see you need some attention. How about we read a book first, and then we clean up this mess?".

I disagree with this. Going back to our kids doing these things to figure out how the world works, what this teaches is "I get rewarded for doing bad things." I think what you're forgeting is that the child's need just might be "I want to see what happens when I do this."

Similarly, putting on a sad face and saying "Mama didn't like that, that's not a nice way to act" and then cleaning it up yourself teaches "I'm not responsible for fixing what I do, Mommy will always do it for me even if it makes her angry," and, "Isn't it funny that I can make Mommy jump like this?"

The exception is if the child is so tired or hungry that he's acting out in a temper tantrum fashion. Then the child clearly needs something and is trying to get your attention for that need. I think most of us are well enough in tune with our children to be able to see the difference between these kinds of needs and act appropriately.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
The exception is if the child is so tired or hungry that he's acting out in a temper tantrum fashion. Then the child clearly needs something and is trying to get your attention for that need. .

This is interesting to me. I guess I expect all of dd's needs to have an effect on her behavior--no exception for tired or hungry. Lonely, anxious, stressed, overstimulated....all of these may make my dd act out.

We always address inappropriate behavior. She fixes what she can, and we talk about inappropriate vs. appropriate, and we role play, etc......but, if she is not emotionally prepared to handle these things, then we meet her need and address the inappropriate behavior when she is more emotionally ready.

ETA--much of this may be temperament related. This method *really works for us, and dd makes an honest-to-goodness effort to act appropriately (mannerly, kindly, helpfully, responsibly) the vast majority of the time. Pressing her to pick up a deliberate mess when she is acting out is really counter-producting *for us*. It is like banging my head against a brick wall--only the wall screams and hits back.








Maybe a less intense child, or a more flexible child, would respond differently. But my intense child needs to center herself first, and then fix what she broke. I think this, in itself, is a decent lesson for a person with her temperament to learn.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Oceanbaby-I agree with you about being a little surprised about the replies to your thread.

In our house, this stuff happens a few times a day. Lately, it usually involves deliberately spilling drinks, dropping food, etc. Sometimes, yes, I have been angry about it. Not terribly, but probably more than fit the "crime". When he spits milk out of his mouth onto the floor, I usually say, "We don't spit." And I remove the milk. That sort of thing. Not saying it works all the time, but he knows that it's not something we like.

Yeah, and never leave the laundy where your DC can get to it!

Anyway, I don't have much advice. But just







and hopes that it's all a stage...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
It implies that there is no intelligence behind their actions, and reduces them to simple animals who are acting on instinct. [/b]

It really doesn't, actually. What it does is acknowledge that children this age are not really capable of exercising impulse control. That is but *one* element of understanding the situation, but one that really needs to be pointed out because it's very routine for parents (including myself) to expect more of children in that department than they are capable of delivering.

No one is forgetting about the intelligence behind the actions (in fact, I believe that's been addressed here, as well), but a big part of gentle discipline in the early years *is* about avoiding situations that are likely to cause power struggles (this being a prime example).

Children learn impulse control in time. They learn on the playground when they have to take turns on a slide. They learn in groups when they have to wait to play with a much sought after toy. They learn when mama can't get their drink immediately because she's juggling four other things in her hands at the moment. There are *plenty* of opportunities for children to develop impulse control that do not involve potential power struggles between children and parents that might lead to parents viewing their children's actions as "bad."


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
We always address inappropriate behavior. She fixes what she can, and we talk about inappropriate vs. appropriate, and we role play, etc......but, if she is not emotionally prepared to handle these things, then we meet her need and address the inappropriate behavior when she is more emotionally ready.









Contrary to the popular notion of "rubbing their nose in it" being the best method of siezing a teachable moment, I've found that ds' best learning rarely (if ever) comes in the moment. He almost always absorbs a "lesson" (for lack of a better word) after we've had a little down time and can discuss it in a quiet moment, rather than when he's still upset about being thwarted. Of course, he's a very intense child and reacts, er.... very strongly when he's diverted from his purpose.









Children have great ability to recall. IMO, the idea that they learn best in the moment undermines that ability and may set parents up for more ongoing power struggles.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*







Contrary to the popular notion of "rubbing their nose in it" being the best method of siezing a teachable moment, I've found that ds' best learning rarely (if ever) comes in the moment. He almost always absorbs a "lesson" (for lack of a better word) after we've had a little down time and can discuss it in a quiet moment, rather than when he's still upset about being thwarted. Of course, he's a very intense child and reacts, er.... very strongly when he's diverted from his purpose.









Children have great ability to recall. IMO, the idea that they learn best in the moment undermines that ability and may set parents up for more ongoing power struggles.

My kids must just be different from yours. I have to sit them down and talk to them right away, or it is totally lost on them. Sometimes we have to calm down a bit, sure, but it is done by sitting down together and calming down, and then once they seem more receptive talking about it. We don't go ahead and play or read stories in between. They do calm pretty easy, generally. I've never had to do this for more than a full minute or so.

I do think that deliberate misbehavior is different from accidental or fully impulsive misbehavior. If my kids accidentally misbehave, or impulsively do so, I'll just tell them why they shouldn't do whatever they have done. When they deliberately misbehave, there are consequences - if what they have done means that I have to clean up after them, they have to wait for me to finish cleaning before they can go off to the other thing. If DH is available they can sit with DH, they can stay with me, they can stare at the ground, they can help, they can go sit in a self-enforced time-out if they choose, but they can't go ahead and keep playing happily while mommy remedies things. I don't make them clean it up or force them to do anything, really - just put a bit of a pause into their activities until I've fixed what they've done.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

late to the party as ususal


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
My kids must just be different from yours. I have to sit them down and talk to them right away, or it is totally lost on them. Sometimes we have to calm down a bit, sure, but it is done by sitting down together and calming down, and then once they seem more receptive talking about it. We don't go ahead and play or read stories in between. They do calm pretty easy, generally. I've never had to do this for more than a full minute or so.

Yeah, temperament seems to be important here. Sitting down together does not calm dd--I have to *do something with her for her to calm down. Usually directly related to the reason she acted out in the first place. Sitting down (and asking her to sit with me) immediately to talk would escalate the situation.

I think it is important for parents to realize that it is ok to wait (Dragonfly explained this best) if that is what works best for your child. That these children do not realize it as rewarding bad behavior, but that they appreciate the help calming down (which is particularly difficult for some kids), and then willingly (happily!) cooperate with making amends. After she is more centered, dd seems to feel true remorse about her actions, and generally apologizes without any prodding from me. And then we talk about how she could have handled it differently, and she works to make amends.

Ok, I'm done. I feel I've defended my comments and my parenting enough








Sorry, Oceanbaby, for the turn this thread has made away from actual advice for your situation. Hope you find something that works for your and ds!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I agree there is a range of GD techniques that will work for children of different temperaments.

I have 2 spirited kids and one that is "only" spunky. I did have to use different techniques with the spiirted ones. Add to that, dd is spirited emotionally, but introverted, and ds is spirited physically, yet extroverted.

I relied heavily upon and memorized large parts of:

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen

Raising Your Spirited Child (and accompanying workbook)

How Your Child is Smart (discusses learning styles)


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I'm trying hard not to get upset about this, even though I am pregnant and hormonal. This is practically all I do all day with ds. Seriously, I am not exaggerating. Physical play is his favorite, and even though I am 8.5 months pregnant, I chase him up and down the house, tickle and romp around on the couch and beds.

I have to admit that I'm a little shocked that what everyone got out of my post is that he shouldn't be watching tv, that we don't give him enough attention, or that I don't have a close enough relationship with him. The laundry incident was just the most recent example. There are many examples, but I think I will just go figure it out on my own.

I was pretty surprised by some of the replies, too, oceanbaby.

It sounds as though your son is doing one of two things. He is either looking for attention, NOT because you don't give enough the rest of the day, as others may have suggested, but simply because at that moment he was not the center of attention (your dh was watching the game, you were folding laundry), Or he is testing you to see if you really mean what you say: "Hmmmm, Mommy said I'd better not knock over the laundry...why? What will happen if I DO? Is she just BLUFFING??? I CAN'T STAND IT!!!! MUST - KNOCK - LAUNDRY!!!!!"







Really, I do believe this is what goes on in a three-year-old's head!

Anyway, I think you could fashion a somewhat "natural" consequence out of this situation (I know, that's a contradiction, but bear with me) by using the time it takes you to re-fold the laundry (with his help, of course) as a consequence: "Gee, that's too bad. Now we need to fold this all over again and there won't be enough time for a game of Candyland before bed." Something like that.

As far as the attention part goes, I have said directly to my daughter (who is older than your son, but I said it at age three, too), "Sweetheart, when I am busy with something, I will always be willing to stop for a hug. Hugs are short. So you can ask for them even when I look really busy." You know what? She asks a LOT...and I have stuck to my promise, and it has cut down a lot on the negative-attention thing.

Good luck. Don't pay any attention to people who are picking on you.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

You know, sometimes I feel like doing things I'm not "supposed" to and I'm not anywhere close to being a young kid anymore!







My oldest is one of the most mellow, sweet, compliant children I have ever met and in her five years of life, there have been times that she just has to knock the darn laundry down. Sometimes it just feels too darn good to not do the "right" thing!

I try to take everything with a grain of salt and keep it in perspective (the other times I flip out and yell and act like an idiot, but we won't talk about that here). When children understand what is expected of them, have consistent discipline and act in age appropriate ways the majority of the time, I'm all for letting the other stuff slide. I really think that in this case, and since I have been there I can say this with all honesty, that I would have shown my disappointment and frustration and then made helping me pick up the laundry a prerequisite for moving on to an activity that he would like to do. I remember telling Julia, my oldest, when she did something similar that I would love to read a book but now instead I was going to have to pick up the laundry and fold it AGAIN. She quickly said, "I'll help you, Mama!". And life went on.

Hang in there, Oceanbaby. Being very pregnant with a 3-yr-old to take care of is exhausting at best. Cut yourself some slack. Don't expect to have all of the answers, and when in doubt, err on the side of gentleness. You sound like a great mama!


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## seedling (Sep 10, 2003)

I also have a 3 year old and JUST had a new baby. We've experienced LOTS of the same behavior the OP described...both before and after baby arrived. It seemed to pick up close to my due date. I'm posting to suggest that maybe the impending arrival might have something to do with what's going on here? I certainly think my DD has been acting out because my energy level changed during my pregnancy and now my attention is definitely split. No real suggestions about how to deal...I'm struggling with that myself and unfortunately, sometimes not so gracefully. Anyway, I've enjoyed reading some of the replies and plan to apply some of suggestions I've heard.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My DD will be 3 in September and I've made some observations about power struggles that may help. DD *only* engages in power struggles or deliberately disobeys me when the power struggle is the focus - task.

I started to notice this because DH creates situations that are only about DC obeying. He actually challenges her with his body language and words, which causes her to challenge back. Both of them forget what it was originally about and the task becomes the struggle. Most of the time DC is just learning/testing what happens in this situation.

When I feel these struggles coming I try to quickly change the subject or remove the temptation to "disobey". I think this is good advice but I know it's frustrating to hear because it's not always possible. At this point, I ignore the bait. DC does not need to "win" or test me if I'm not playing, yk? I know that when people observe me metaphorically walk away from a power struggle with my child they think I'm a pushover. I'm not sure what the GD thinking on this is but it works. I honestly don't have the skills to deal with "losing" a power struggle or direct defiance so I avoid them at all costs.

Do you think your child would have knocked over the laundry if DP wasn't in the room? Perhaps your child is curious/testing boundaries with this. Maybe you could role play power struggles.
Are these things generally about impulse control or defiance/power struggle? Maybe I should have asked before I went on and on about power struggles because I ain't go nothin' on impulse control, LOL!

Oh, I just noticed that it could be about attention. That's rough. In that case, I would probably not give too much attention to the misbehavior and add positive attention where ever I could. I also feel somewhat "wimpy" when I don't give lots of focus on misbehavior but if it's about attention, I really don't want that to be the way my child goes about getting it. Yes, I can take the hint. I tell DD that I think she needs me or that I think something is bothering her and we move quickly on to that.


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## Cranberry (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alexander*
Well, clearly you are not delivering enough raspberries to the tummy, or threats to tickle his bottom, or giving him a fun romp and laugh till he collapses in a cuddle.

This type of close relationship building makes "helping mummy" have more meaning. 3 year olds are not there watch sport or follow instructions, but are there to figure out what is what.

hope this helps

a

Ouch! If I were the OP I would be really insulted by this.

Alexander, what's it like to be perfect?


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

I haven't had time to read all the replies, but wanted to chime in b/c we are going through some very similar stuff! I'm 8.5 months pregnant and ds is 3.5 yo. A very wise friend suggested that ds was/is testing to see if can handle his strong emotions b/c he is having so many new feelings as he becomes increasingly aware that the baby is coming. The most successful tactic I've had it to stop the behavior by saying something like, "I can't let you do that." and then , "Use your strong words to tell me what you are feeling." then later trying to enlist his help in fixing the situtaion (if appilcable as in the case of jumping in folded laundry, which has happened here more than once!). If he won't be engaged to help, I'll do it but let him know that if I have to do such and such it leave us less time to read or play. Or if it's his own toy he refuses to pick up, the consequence is that I will put the toy on a high shelf for the rest of the day so that I don't have to pick it up again. Both dh and I have really stepped up telling him we love him, "no matter what". and ds will often cue me by saying, "Mama I love you even though you did that." ("did that" most often describing his own behavior). It seems to be helping.
I'm having trouble being coherant this morning! I hope this post makes some sense.
And no, I can't even imagine that you have caused this behavior by not being connected enough to your ds!


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## flutemandolin (Nov 20, 2001)

Glad I found this thread, I was just about to start one myself along the same lines! My youngest ds is 2 yrs 7 months and he actually makes a game out of testing me...Saturday morning I was listening to the radio and he would climb up on a chair and turn the volume down, I would say "Joseph, I like that music just like it was, please leave the knob where it is and get down", he would ignore me, I would turn the knob back to where I wanted it, he would look at me and his smile would get bigger as he moved his hand towards the knob...







I think he does stuff like this because he can, and like someone mentioned it gets to be about the power struggle itself, not the radio volume or his act of adjusting it. I was going to ask "Well, now what do I DO?" Maybe next time I'll ask him if he will please turn the volume up so Mommy can hear it.


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## momnloveit (May 28, 2002)

"You REALLY want to push something over. Let's make a tower with blocks so you can knock it down." "You really like turning that knob. Let's find a knob that you can turn." We specifically have a child's tape recorder that the kids can play with. These kinds of sentences have been lifesavers for me.


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