# Help me sort out my reaction to a mainstream mama



## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

I just moved to a new place and went to a momma group that I found at meet-up. I should preface this story by saying that I have only ever met/hung out with AP mommas. Even my semi-mainstream family members breastfed/co-slept and didn't CIO (except my sister, but we don't talk.)

Well the meet-up group ended up just being me and one other momma. She was elective c-section, formula feeding by choice, CIO. It was shocking to me. I could handle the elective c-section/formula feeding...I get that a lot of times it is just bad information and lack of support that makes people choose these things, but the CIO really struck a horrible cord with me. When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange. And quite frankly I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

I am so angry that she let her LO CIO. I'm angry but I am jealous too. I want my LO to STTN so bad. Isn't this horrible? How do you mommas handle hanging with more mainstream mommas, or do you just not do it? I don't think I can do it again. I feel so yucky right now. I also don't want to be so judgmental, but CIO just seems so wrong to me, I can't help it.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

My SIL is a cry-it-out, beat 'em when they're "bad", paranoid helicopter mom.

I have a hard time being around her. I only do for familial obligations.

I have no advice, because this is the only other mom I will even attempt to be around. I don't join mother's groups, I won't even go to story time at the library, because I will not have a good time listening to all the abuse stories that inevitably will be passed around.

All I can do is offer a hug!


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## MamaStarbird (Oct 21, 2008)

In a small community (ie, where I live) you just have to take what you can get. Am I disappointed/alarmed/freaked out by some of the parenting I see? Sure. But a lot of the people I meet _really don't know_ that there's another way.

As far as things that have already happened (past birth choices, whether a now-grown kid was formula-fed) I let it go since a) my feelings won't change it and b) I don't know the full story.

With things that I CAN have an impact on, I try to be a generous, non-judgmental source of information when I can in the hopes that I can help someone learn something they would otherwise have never been exposed to. If a mom has never heard anything but "The only way to get your baby to sleep is to CIO and they'll never remember it anyway" your immediate (totally understandable) alarm isn't going to do her any good. It's never too late for someone to improve their relationship with their kids.

And if it becomes clear that we're totally incompatible parents/personalities, that's fine and I have no problem walking away. Just not in the first five minutes when I'm desperate to find some mom friends







.


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## Paeta16 (Jul 24, 2007)

I have a few friends who are pretty mainstream...in fact, if I really think about it, most of my Mommy friends are mainstream. I have one friend (whom I really like otherwise) who let her 3.5 month old baby CIO and sees nothing wrong with it. She is completely a sleep trainer and has no qualms about it. I just ignore those parts of any conversation. I cringe but I value our friendship too so I take the good with the bad I guess. It really does suck though...a lot!


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

I understand. I'm active in my community, go to library story times, coordinate play groups, etc. Most parents I know are mainsteam. Most parents I know really love their kids. I don't hang out with yellers or spankers- because that is when their choices/parenting are going to affect me & my child.
For instance, my bro & sis in laws, are very mainstream- baby in a crib in a nursery down the hall, bottle feeding, etc. I differ but I let it lie- our daughters are the same age, cousins 4-ever. I keep in mind that they think I'm the weirdo/freak of nature/hippie who's barely taking decent care of my kid. The mainstream backs their practices, not mine.

Anyway, we all cope as best we can. Best wishes & good luck.


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

I forgot to point out:
sttn= 5 hours straight, not all night.
many babies get up to half their nutrition during night nursing
not nursing at night may lower the supply
moms who nurse 2-3 times per night may have better luck reaching the 1yr mark


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## Serendipity (Nov 12, 2005)

Oh that's a bummer.

My reaction would really depend on how much you need community. I assume if there was an AP group you'd be going to that, so is this all that's available?

Since it was just the two of you, I would stick it out to see how the other mamas are. I can't imagine hanging out with an entire group like that, but if there are just a few, I might tolerate it for the company of the others.

Maybe really examine what you are upset about. Is it the jealousy of your baby still waking at night? Is it just that you feel so bad for her baby? Is it something else? Try to figure that out see if/how you can cope with that.

My sister doesn't do things the way I do. Sometimes its pretty tough to deal with and I struggled with it for a long time. I finally decided the best thing I could do was be an example. Show her the relationship I have with my kids and hope that in time she'll see that what I'm doing is best for us, and maybe she'll learn from it too.

I don't hang out with any 'mainstream' parents that aren't family. If I didn't have any other options though, I probably would. I guess it would also depend for me what else I was getting out of the relationship. If the moms were otherwise enjoyable and we had other things in common, that would help. If we were just completely different and had no other basis for friendship, I wouldn't bother.


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## BAU3 (Dec 10, 2001)

I don't know.. I don't really care much what my friends parenting styles are. I enjoy alot of the moms in my community and don't spend too much time wondering/worrying about how they parent. It doesn't really come up much.

I suppose, tho, if it bothered me I'd either not persue a friendship or maybe adopt a don't ask/don;t tell kind of attitude... just try to steer clear of the subject??


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## elfimka (Mar 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
I'm angry but I am jealous too.

Don't be. We just don't know how this CIO will affect her child, her child's trust in her as a mom, and child's overall development and confidence. Consider co-sleeping/nightwaking an investment in your future relationship with your child and his trust in you.

I hope you find more like-minded moms in your area. *hugs*


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## hibiscus mum (Apr 6, 2009)

Is CIO considered mainstream? And by mainstream, I mean is it really common? That makes me very sad.









I'd have a hard time going back too. I'm stuggling with finding a group in my area because I'm new here and have no mom firnds - no friends at all, really. You could try going to meetup.com and maybe starting your own AP group. I've considered that myself.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

You know, some kids really do fuss/cry for just a few minutes and then go right to sleep. I never used to believe this, because the few times when I just lay there exhausted for awhile before going to my child, his cries only escalated to a heartrending shriek that had me leaping out of bed.

But, as moxie points out, there really do seem to be two types of kids, those who release tension by fussing and those who don't.

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006...s_and_cio.html

Which is why, though I would never advocate CIO _in the slightest_, I think there is a world of difference between a mother who says, "You know, my kid cries for a few minutes and then goes right to sleep" and a mother who says, "Yeah, we let him cry for two hours - that taught him!"

You know? It's all in the attitude. One has figured out what her kid seems to need to fall asleep, one is just following some one-size-fits-all sleep training tactic.

So I guess in a situation like this, without knowing the mother any better, I would tend to believe her. I would look at her as a person: do I like her, is she funny, smart, interesting, would I like to hang out with her? And that's what I'd base my reaction on. Her as a fellow mother who loves her kid, just like I do.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BAU3* 
I don't know.. I don't really care much what my friends parenting styles are. I enjoy alot of the moms in my community and don't spend too much time wondering/worrying about how they parent. It doesn't really come up much.

I suppose, tho, if it bothered me I'd either not persue a friendship or maybe adopt a don't ask/don;t tell kind of attitude... just try to steer clear of the subject??

I have a circle of close friends from college (9 of us), and a few of them FF, do CIO, and are a lot more punitive than I am. But we employ a don't ask don't tell, and they know the only time to talk to me is if they want to hear my opinions and advice about how to *NOT* do what they're doing...














They all love their children, and their children love them and none of them seem to be majorly scarred (with the exception of one poor little one I feel so bad for), so I just focus on the friendships we had before, and the friendships we will have in the future. In my local mom groups, I have an AP group and a more mainstream group, and I still value all the women there for various reasons.

I don't want my kids to only be friends with people who think exactly like them, nor feel like they need to "save" everyone. They can lead by example, and offer advice when solicited...and I teach them that by living it, KWIM? I certainly do not stay quiet or condone things my friends do that I don't believe in or think are harmful, but I also don't stop being friends with them because of it.

*Edit: For new moms I meet, if the topics of FF or CIO come up and they are on the pro side, I diplomatically but assertively (is that even a word?







) state my opinions - so they know where I stand, and they usually drop the topic and we move on to find things we have in common instead. I'm not rude, and I've found others aren't rude either, and we find a common ground somewhere. I have yet to have anyone be rude to me after I talk about attachment parenting, even if it's something they don't believe in. I also have yet to talk to a mom where I can't find some common ground somewhere. I guess it comes down to the fact that I believe that most parents love their children, even if they do things that *I* personally believe can adversely affect the parent-child relationship, so I find some way to connect with them because we both love our children, KWIM?


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## Dahlea (May 15, 2008)

I just wouldn't hang out with them. There are things I can deal with, and things I can't. CIO is one of them. I would have left as well.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

it gets easier as they get older. I have a great mom friend that I met when our oldest were around 2 and her youngest was 1. I am guessing she formula fed (2 kids that are a year apart), but none of this stuff - CIO, FFing, etc comes up now. She is definitely more mainstream than me but really nice and we get along great. That said keep looking! I am in a fairly conservative area and I was suprised to find a great network of crunchy moms here. We are everywhere!


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
You know? It's all in the attitude. One has figured out what her kid seems to need to fall asleep, one is just following some one-size-fits-all sleep training tactic.

So I guess in a situation like this, without knowing the mother any better, I would tend to believe her. I would look at her as a person: do I like her, is she funny, smart, interesting, would I like to hang out with her? And that's what I'd base my reaction on. Her as a fellow mother who loves her kid, just like I do.


Totally. My second son would SCREAM bloody murder if we tried to hold him or rock him to sleep. He wouldn't co sleep and hated anyone around him. Actually, he didn't even want to give hugs or kisses until he was 4. He would however lay in his bed fuss for a minute and fall asleep. It was almost like he was getting the last bit of energy out, then just pass out. He started sleeping through the night at 6 weeks old and I even woke him for the first few weeks so I could feed him since I needed it. So really, it was him who hated being touched. I don't see that as CIO at all, it was doing what was best for my son. Even at 9 he likes to be all alone when he sleeps.

As for the elective c-section, was it her first child? Or has she had a c-section before? Could it be that she really had no other choice and in order to deal with that fact, she just accepted it? I HAVE to have a c-section, no options at all, NONE, and I would hate to have someone judge me because I will admit that honestly, my c-sections were that bad at all. And yes, part of that is justifying my having the c-section which is required, but it doesn't make me a horrible mom or person, or uneducated for that matter.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

I would have just said something like, Oh, I can't bear to hear my son cry, so I try to comfort him when he does.

I do think its a little rude to just up and leave b/c you don't agree with how someone is parenting, and really thats only a very small part of parenting. I don't agree with CIO either, but I also think that alot of parents don't realize that there is another way to do it.

I've been looking for moms groups in my area and haven't been successful, but I'm really just hoping to find some friends to be my friends, not my parenting buddies. I feel like all I do is parent, and I kinda want some interaction that isn't about the baby.


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## nikkiethridge (May 6, 2008)

I think as AP and NFLiving moms, we are all going to have those 'issues' with other parents that really strike a cord with us.

Mine are CIO and people who are just so ignorantly pro-circ, it's insane. I can't be friends with those types of people. Seriously, sometimes we just have to stay away from certain type of parenting because of how wrong we know it is. I'm not saying that these people don't love their kids, but it would just tear my heart apart being around someone who can do such things and not be bothered by it.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Yeah, my brother did CIO with his LO and was telling me about it. Doctors keep giving the advice and people follow their doctors b/c they trust them. Also, many people are much more parent centered than child centered... developmentally appropriate, what's that?









I feel icky too when having conversations like that.


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## madsommer (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
I am so angry that she let her LO CIO. I'm angry but I am jealous too. I want my LO to STTN so bad. Isn't this horrible? How do you mommas handle hanging with more mainstream mommas, or do you just not do it? I don't think I can do it again. I feel so yucky right now. I also don't want to be so judgmental, but CIO just seems so wrong to me, I can't help it.









. I used to feel the same way in the beginning. I would meet other mothers who did moparented in more "mainstream" ways than I did and though I objected, I also would get angry because I felt like I was making myself a martyr for no reason. But in the end, you just have to decide that what's right for you, is right for you and know that this time when he's not sleeping/still nursing/wants to be held all the time is fleeting...it's only for a short time.

As for leaving, I probably would not associate with her very much either. I haven't made very many friends here yet because I just feel so strongly about my parenting choices/views, that I have a hard time watching others do things so differently. It's just _nicer_ when you all have the same goals/ideas.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Sometimes it takes a lot of looking to find like minded people in a new area. Keep looking, I'm sure there are one or two out there.








s


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## mum2row (May 11, 2007)

I understand your concern. My SIL and her husband used CIO with their 2 babes and I totally could not understand how they could do it. (And I have been there at bedtime the kids did not cry for a minute). After trying to see each others views we now know that this is just not an area we discuss. We have chosen to respect that we are raising our kids our way and to support each other the best we can.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 

But, as moxie points out, there really do seem to be two types of kids, those who release tension by fussing and those who don't.

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006...s_and_cio.html

Which is why, though I would never advocate CIO _in the slightest_, I think there is a world of difference between a mother who says, "You know, my kid cries for a few minutes and then goes right to sleep" and a mother who says, "Yeah, we let him cry for two hours - that taught him!"

You know? It's all in the attitude. One has figured out what her kid seems to need to fall asleep, one is just following some one-size-fits-all sleep training tactic.

So I guess in a situation like this, without knowing the mother any better, I would tend to believe her. I would look at her as a person: do I like her, is she funny, smart, interesting, would I like to hang out with her? And that's what I'd base my reaction on. Her as a fellow mother who loves her kid, just like I do.

Yeah. Mine sometimes cries five minutes _in my arms_.







I try everything. Sometimes she needs to be swaddled and left alone. It was totally different with the first and who knew I'd get a baby like this?


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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

My two closest girlfriends are all pregnant right along with me, though I'm pregnant with my 2nd and them their 1st. I already know they are mainstream by the way they talk and question the things I do. However, once we do get into a discussion about my parenting choices, they are never able to argue with me bc I am fully loaded with research and experience. I try not to judge; I had a mainstream approach before I ever became a mother because it was what I was used to.. but as soon as I became a mother, my maternal instincts went into overdrive and I could never imagine causing pain or unnecessary distress on my child. I'm hoping maybe they will be the same...


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## mimid (Dec 29, 2004)

It is hard sometimes, but I fight the urge and then when things click into place I am so happy that we did it this way. When you are in those kinds of situations you have to decide what you want to do and how it will harm any relationships.

Example: Our city has a number of Jews, but only a couple Moroccan synagogues. We've chosen the best (in our opinion) of them and plan to live here for a few years. So, when I hear the discussion between the Rabbi's daughter and some other women about how they CIO because "it is best for the kids" and how moms who bf after a year "have issues" I bite my tongue. I'll say something if asked directly but I temper it. If I said what I wanted to (or what dh says to me later) it would become a huge deal and not something I want to deal with. (Though I do have fantasies about moving far away and then the night before we leave giving her a piece of my mind.)


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## BellaClaudia (Aug 1, 2008)

yeah.. it is hard for me too.. I keep revisiting the issue
because my child need to socialize and yet in my area
I have no luck of finding anyone like minded and
so it is hard..

I am trying to make it for the sake of little one
so she can play with other kids but
every few minutes I bump into something that
I can't say because I know what reaction it would
bring or I try really hard not to comment on
something the other mama says and I am
split between internal emotional throw up.. eye roll
or just run away syndromme..

I stick there through the play date, I try to
keep conversation on very impersonal level
and it is hard.. as it is just hard because it is not me
and petending all the time is just a mental struggle
that leaves me crawling mentally and recovering
after each and every meeting.

It is unhealthy on some level that I am sure because
it is supposed to be an opportunity to socialize for
moms as well as kids but
after so many trials I just see that as finding new
friend for myself is not easy for obvious reason
as nobody can be friend with just first better person
here we are dealing with a case of trying to make
friendship with someone who is just a potential
because he has kid of our age.. so

now the kid's compability kicks in and that makes
it double hard.

so now I have to deal with the issue of my incopatibility
with other mama and my kid compatibility or incompatibility
with her peer..

having such a difficulty so far I decied that if I will stay
away from people just because they have different parenting
views will leave my child friendless and social less and
that is bad too..

so I am trying to do little steps in just closing my soul
to the ideas and treat them as they are coming from tv or
whatever and try not to comment on anything and keep
my things to me.

It is just tough. I can only tell you that I tried it all

- avoid all people as I was sick after few tryings..
bad just as anything because soon I felt that my child
was not having any kids to play with except accidental
playground stranger kids..

- meeting the other parents who think CIO and formula and stuff... and trying to explain my points of views
and discuss theirs (don't ever go there as this is best
and fastest way to end things and leave you with bad taste..
but of course do what you want.

- then finally I did this.. prepare to be amused:
so.. I meet this couple in a bookstore.. super nice sweet
she is a doctor, he is a IT whatever.. and so we both
love them and her kiddo is playing so nice with my
both love the experience.. the parents beg us to
meet again, exchange contacts.. I email her and knowing
she is a OBGYN I think.. hm.. she is a doctor she has a child
she will understand natural parenting..
so I write nice heart warming and inviting email to her
and do the "btw.. I still nurse my 3.5 year old and I hope
it is okay with you and I only say it to you since
we were to meet blah blah blah.. and since you are
doctor etc... etc.. etc... "..

guess what.. NEVER HEARD FROM them again!!!








: good riddence I say.. I tried that one too so now I know
that I don't need to worry what would happen if I ever would
totally open with other parent to my ways upfront..
so now no more wondering.. I know. Knowledge is power ha ha ha..

so now I realize that the older kids get the easier it is as
there is less and less things that are controversial..
of course new are coming but at least the many things
of early childhood are not the topic of discussion anymore
so we are good in those areas.. and the rest is less
and I am getting bit emotionally stronger per getting more sleep
and my hormons stablizing due to more stabilized nursing habits
of my little one so I can take crap bit easier..

yeah.. it is a lot to do of how well you can handle the crap.

I am sure some day I will meet more mind like parents but now
it is just hard for we really have very limited geographical pareameters
for finding someone and we live in area that is running on
speed and any baby who does not support the idea of
parental career advancement by utilizing CIO to allow faster
and artificial STTN or won't take formula on voluntary basis
will be forced to do so at "bottle point" (as in at gun point).







:

so.. here we are.. just had two non like moms meetings in last two days,
I feel exhosted but I look at my daughter and she is so happy
she met her friends, she had lots of fun, she could run together, draw together, talk together, slide together..

and for them all that stuff does not matter so I am going
to put up thorought this till God will smile upon us and send
us some person who will be tru friend and will be equally
happy to hang out with us as we will be..

till then.. just like convenience marriage based on
mutual momentarly need rather then love.. we wil play pretend with
that other parents and divorce when we will get sick of it and can't do it anymore.

thanks for venting at the same time as answering your post.

hugs


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I will say it gets MUCH easier as your children age - AP is much less obvious and in your face when your kids are school age vs. babies.









That said, some of our closest friends had a baby about a year ago. She had no intention of ever trying to breastfeed, bought babywise and still swears by it, and both of them are total helecopter parents. I've had to just let it go and not let it bother me - they are both very good parents and LOVE their dd to death! She was such a demanding little thing that she didn't really let Babywise work







and even now they do everything they do for her, deeply believing it's in her best interest.

Who am I to judge? I don't agree with most of it!







But I know they think I'm nuts too and much too "loose" with ds.









Our friendship matters too much to let how they parent end it. But we are very compatable in all other areas and have been friends a long, long time.

I do know how hard it is to meet like minded people - I still have not got that down. I'm not crunchy enough for most AP circles and too crunchy for the mainstream ones.







So I fit in where I can.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I feel ya!

I was once sitting in a playgroup talking with a mom I knew from the community. She and her dh had just been to Paris (leaving their 13 month old w/grandparents). I had worked actively on not judging her for taking a trip without the baby, reminding myself that I didn't know how close the child was with the grandparents, that different things work for different families, etc... So I asked her enthusiastically about the trip and she said, "It was fine, but NameOfChild was clingy and fussy the whole time we were gone, and then when we got back we had to reFerberize him." And then bitched about having to hear him scream.

I sat there, stunned, then got up, scooped up my kid, and walked out. Perhaps not the best response, but it was the best I had in me that moment. I was likely to say something nasty if I had stayed.

That stuff is just hard. But I have found that if you look hard enough, you'll find kind, attached parents hiding in the woodwork most places. I live in a community of 2300 people and it hasn't been easy, but over the course of a couple years I patched together a network of friends and acquaintances whose values, if not exactly the same as mine, I can stand to be around and don't mind having my child exposed to.

Hugs and luck! Keep looking--you'll find your peeps.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I know how you feel.....where I used to work there were a LOT of moms with kids my ds' age and we would frequently exhange stories. The few times I ate lunch at work (reason #1 why I was a weird.....I ebf'ed and usually skipped lunch to nurse ds) I alsmot couldn't handle it. One woman told us how she turned on the kitchen stove fan so she wouldn't hear her 5 MONTH OLD crying himself to sleep. Another mom berated me for not doing birthday parties (we don't celebrate birthdays), saying my child was missing out on so much, then inthe same breath mentioned starting her 4 month old on for ula so that she could leave him with a sitter and stay out all night and get wasted (her exact words). Because that's so mmuch better.....?????


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

It's tough to bridge the gap between the different styles of parenting. Even in my AP group there are a few mom's who lean more toward mainstream parenting, but seem to be there to learn more about APing. It's tough to bite your tongue, etc etc.

We had a gathering yesterday, a couple girlfriends and I, and one of them was complaining how the health nurse told her leaving a baby in a car seat for an extended period of time was bad, and how she KNEW it wasn't. I finally spoke up and was like, "Yeah, she was actually very right. It's not good for the babe, at all". She looked at me dumbfounded, and then quickly retracted her statement, and moved onto complain about something else. We left shortly after that, and I just kept to myself, and DS for the remainder of the playdate.

Then of course, I have a girlfriend who is the CIO, if they can ask for breastmilk it's bad, yelling, punishing behavior that's normal, and leaving her baby on the kitchen table in a infant seat type of gal. I've posted about her several times on here. I'm surprised at this point, that we're friends still. The other day, she says to me, after I have spent the last 3 months telling her that pumps are not efficient, and will never be as good as nursing on demand (she has supply issues), "You know what's weird? When I started nursing on demand my supply went up!" I nearly banged my head against the computer desk.

I'm ranting now. Anyway, if there isn't an AP group in your area, why don't you start one? Facebook is a great way to network, and you'd be surprised at the ones who come out of the woodwork! I definitely wouldn't be active in any playdates if I wasn't with sort of likeminded mom's.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts yet, but guessing I may be in the minority on this one.

Quote:

I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange.
To be completely honest, I think that is really mean. It seems very judgemental to say oh no you didn't really do________, and then leave right after. It may be your personal opinion that CIO or "whatever" is wrong for your family, but really! do you think it is your place to judge what others do?

I think Bumbo chairs are stupid, I BF my toddlers, I carried them around in a mei tai, I also did use CIO. I never went up to someone else and said Oh no, you used a bumbo chair! formula! your baby still sleeps with you! and ran away from them.

In my personal experience baby up at night was okay for a while, but after my second was 11 months, I went back to work full time and for 6 months still feed at night, taking care of a toddler a 3 year old and working full time and not having a full night of sleep in years, it takes its toll, to the point I couldn't cope. 2 night of crying and we all slept better, I had more engergy and was a better mom for it, and my son is no less attched to me for it! The point being is that all moms do the best for their families, for some people having a certain amount of sleep is crutial to their ability to be calm, have patience and get through the day, this amount of sleep is different for everyone. It really bothers me when people are so judgemental! BF is the same way, I am all for BF and BF my children for a long time, yet I know of someone who was horribly depressed, BF was going fine, but she hated it, and had PPD. (not that all mom with PPD have issues with BF, but she did)She swtiched to formula and was happier for it, sure it is not as "nutritious" but having a depressed mother is also not healthy for a baby and has long term implications, and in her case she and her baby had a better outcome with formula. So until you walk in someone elses shoes, why do you feel it is your place to tell someone else they are wrong?


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hibiscus mum* 
Is CIO considered mainstream? And by mainstream, I mean is it really common? That makes me very sad.









I'd have a hard time going back too. I'm stuggling with finding a group in my area because I'm new here and have no mom firnds - no friends at all, really. You could try going to meetup.com and maybe starting your own AP group. I've considered that myself.









Yes. It's "normal", "expected". Just visit a mainstream birthboard. Questions like "how long do you let YOUR baby cry???", tossed around like it's nothing.

It's abuse, IMO.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

Mama's thank you for all of the support and insight.

I think I may try to meet-up with the mama one more time, if nothing but to just reconcile the way I acted previously. It is not in my nature to be rude, and I don't want to alienate her for her parenting style. Plus, I figure the best way to expose someone to something different and have them come away with a positive experience about it is to be open and kind. And I think maybe she just has simply never been exposed to anything other than her mainstream parenting. She seems genuinely sweet and good-natured.

To the previous poster who commented on C-sections, I didn never judge that for any reason. But her's was truly elective, although she did mention that everyone in her family and even her partner;t 'believe' she would make it through the labor process (she is young and didn't mention any birth complications in her detailed birth story.) My heart went out to her for this. I can't even imagine having my partner telling me that I wouldn't make it through labor. So yes I think I will go to the playgroup once more, just to offer a better side of myself.

As for finding like-minded mommas, I know they are out there, in fact I saw one mamma walk by my house twice wearing her LO in an ergo, I think the ext time I see her I am going to run out of my house and say hello (a little desperate I know.) I'm also going to hit up LLL meetings and try and start an AP goup if I can't find one to fall into.

I've realized that at this point in my life I cannot bild meaningful relationships ith people who parent radically different than I do. If I can't feel comfortable NIP with them there, then really who am I fooling. At this point in my life being mamma is everything to me, and it is 90% of what I want to talk about when I meet new people.

Thanks for all of the insight.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

I didn't tell anyone they were wrong I just made it clear that I'm not ok with CIO. She wasn't obviously offended by what I said, and I left politely making an excuse about meeting my spouse for lunch (we had already been hanging out for about an hour). I think we live in a society that too often withholds the truth to placate a situation. I'm not that type of person and have no aspirations to be that way. I think CIO is wrong in every situation (although I understand some LOs need to fuss for a few minutes to be able to sleep.)

I think you are being a little defensive because you are trying to validate your own experience with CIO. And like I said I understand that some of us need to FF and some of us need to get elective CS and all that, but no one NEEDS to let a LO CIO.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
I've realized that at this point in my life I cannot bild meaningful relationships ith people who parent radically different than I do. If I can't feel comfortable NIP with them there, then really who am I fooling. At this point in my life being mamma is everything to me, and it is 90% of what I want to talk about when I meet new people.

That's fine. Just don't be offended if other people refuse to be friends with you because you parent differently from them. That kind of thing cuts both ways.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Finding friends, for yourself and your child, and accepting different parenting styles is a hard balance to strike. Have you tried looking at either of these websites for local groups?

attachmentparenting.org

holisticsmoms.org

I feel really lucky that I found a group of moms who were pretty in tune with their babies and were very responsive to them. These are the "mom friends" that I am closest to, whom I would let me son go play at their houses, who I swapped babysitting with. But, you are never going to find someone who parents just the way you do. I trust that most parents are doing the best they can with what they have, and assume that they have a good reason for making the choices they do. So, when one mom friend from the group did start to let her daughter cry at night, it was after a year and a half of multiple night wakings, and mom getting no sleep. She was completely sleep deprived - constantly on edge, was beginning to scare herself with her driving, she was too exhausted to put anything into her relationship with her husband, etc. She made the decision that some crying at night was what she needed to do so that she could be in a better place during the day. I could never use CIO myself (my DS is 4.5 and still wakes at night!), but I feel there is no way I could judge her. Obviously, this is just one example, but I think illustrates that we don't always know what went into a parent's decision making process, and that it isn't fair to make judgements when we don't know the whole story.

I have a wider circle of friends whom I know don't use very AP or natural parenting practices. I wouldn't leave my child alone with them because I don't trust they would care for him the way I would. I tend to just avoid talking about parenting techniques with them. They are people I enjoy spending time with, and although I may not agree with specific approaches, I think they are good parents with well adjusted kids. I also try to remember that each of these things, CIO or formula feeding or whatever are each just one aspect of parenting. If most things are done well and the child has an overall secure upbringing over the course of their childhood, they are most likely going to be fine.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I don't know, when I get together with Moms, most of all birthing choices hardly ever come up except in passing. I had natural childbirth, and I'm yet to have anyone ask me how I had him that I just met. Most people don't know my birth story, not because it's a secret or anything but its just that it didn't come up much after the first month or so. I honestly don't get how you sit down with a Mom you just met and have birthing choices, FF/BF, AND CIO come up during a fairly casual conversation. I would have to go back to the drawing board on my standard conversation topics. With my friends we mostly talk about Daddies helping out, poopy diapers, growth and development, and good baby shopping deals we found. Go neutral on the topics, because there is no need for you to feel/experience a rift with every Mom you meet because your parenting practices don't exactly match.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
That's fine. Just don't be offended if other people refuse to be friends with you because you parent differently from them. That kind of thing cuts both ways.

I would be fine with that.

The only reason I see my SIL is for family reasons. To watch her hit her children hurts me inside. It hurts me for the children, for her because she doesn't know better, and for her children's children, because they will learn to hit them too. I would have no problems if she wouldn't want to be friends with me because I DON'T hit my kids.

I can't stand by and hear stories of abuse (CIO, hitting) and smile and nod. It's not in me.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
I don't know, when I get together with Moms, most of all birthing choices hardly ever come up except in passing. I had natural childbirth, and I'm yet to have anyone ask me how I had him that I just met. Most people don't know my birth story, not because it's a secret or anything but its just that it didn't come up much after the first month or so. I honestly don't get how you sit down with a Mom you just met and have birthing choices, FF/BF, AND CIO come up during a fairly casual conversation. I would have to go back to the drawing board on my standard conversation topics. With my friends we mostly talk about Daddies helping out, poopy diapers, growth and development, and good baby shopping deals we found. Go neutral on the topics, because there is no need for you to feel/experience a rift with every Mom you meet because your parenting practices don't exactly match.

She brought everything up. I never mentioned anything about my birth, didn't mention that I breast feed (also didn't bf because I didn't feel comfotable), nothing. Really though how do you steer clear oft these subjects when you have an infant. I mean we talked about carseats and poopy diapers and the weather too, but when you both don't have older kids to talk about, these subjects come up.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
She brought everything up. I never mentioned anything about my birth, didn't mention that I breast feed (also didn't bf because I didn't feel comfotable), nothing. Really though how do you steer clear oft these subjects when you have an infant. I mean we talked about carseats and poopy diapers and the weather too, but when you both don't have older kids to talk about, these subjects come up.

You could talk about non-child related subjects. Most parents are very happy to get a chance to get away from the kid talk.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
She brought everything up. I never mentioned anything about my birth, didn't mention that I breast feed (also didn't bf because I didn't feel comfotable), nothing. Really though how do you steer clear oft these subjects when you have an infant. I mean we talked about carseats and poopy diapers and the weather too, but when you both don't have older kids to talk about, these subjects come up.

Come to think of it, if she had been a little less open, our meeting would have gone a lot better. Generally I'm a big fan of being open, but there is such a thing as being too open right? Maybe that is what added to the uncomfortable feeling of the situation. It would have been nice to just talk about less intense subjects. I literally didn't share anything about my parenting style, except by example (changing Rowan's cloth diaper) and the comment after she mentioned CIO.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikkiethridge* 
I think as AP and NFLiving moms, we are all going to have those 'issues' with other parents that really strike a cord with us.

Mine are CIO and people who are just so ignorantly pro-circ, it's insane. I can't be friends with those types of people. Seriously, sometimes we just have to stay away from certain type of parenting because of how wrong we know it is. I'm not saying that these people don't love their kids, but it would just tear my heart apart being around someone who can do such things and not be bothered by it.









This.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is exactly how I feel. Sometimes even here on MDC I feel like the range of perspectives crosses away from what I would be comfortable being friends with.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I don't hang out w/ mainstream parents, but I'm lucky to have found a group of like minded moms through LLL. I tried some playgroups w/ mainstream moms but always felt like an oddball and/or uncomfortable, it wasn't worth it.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Oh I know how you feel! I am trying to do 24/7 AP....cosleeping and babywearing all day, all night, every day, every night.

Then I hear some of my friends talk about their baby's daycare schedule for the summer...how they are so excited they got "extended" hours. As one said, "Now I can have some downtime afterwork, then just pick him up and put him to bed!"

I simultaneously want to uke but at the same time I am jealous b/c I am tired and bored and the laundry needs to be done and my hair is a mess and I take 5 minute showers so my legs are never clean shaven etc etc etc


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikkiethridge* 
I think as AP and NFLiving moms, we are all going to have those 'issues' with other parents that really strike a cord with us.

Mine are CIO and people who are just so ignorantly pro-circ, it's insane. I can't be friends with those types of people. Seriously, sometimes we just have to stay away from certain type of parenting because of how wrong we know it is. I'm not saying that these people don't love their kids, but it would just tear my heart apart being around someone who can do such things and not be bothered by it.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
This.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is exactly how I feel. Sometimes even here on MDC I feel like the range of perspectives crosses away from what I would be comfortable being friends with.

Oh this is the perfect way to put it! Excepting my mom, and even then we are at a difference in some places, everyone I know is mainstream. I don't know anyone who is supportive of things such as babywearing, AP, non-CIO, co-sleeping, vaccine-free, TF, etc etc.

But I am perfectly able to be friends w/ some people b/c even though they feed their kids junk or fully vaccinate, they are at heart very loving parents. And I can respect that and understand that we are all at different places on the journey.

But things like CIO, physical discipline and some attitudes are just unbearable.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

Quote:

I think you are being a little defensive because you are trying to validate your own experience with CIO. And like I said I understand that some of us need to FF and some of us need to get elective CS and all that, but no one NEEDS to let a LO CIO.
No it is not that I am defensive about that particular issue. I am very confident it was the right decision for the whole family at that particular point in time, it worked quickly and I was a better mom for it, and my children had better care from mom for it. What bothers me about this is the judgment back and forth on various issues. I really do not get it! I have spent most of my career working with moms and babies both before and after I had my own children. So many times women are judgemental about others on baby/kid topics, and in this thread, judgemental to the point of not even wanting to be friends! I've seen this being a mom myself, at work, in moms group both as a facilatator and a participant, on internet formums and I am just tired of it! Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV!

I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine. If someone asks an opinion or for information, then I might say something, but otherwise all I am doing is alienating them. What better way to change view points than to be an example. If more people were to carry their babies around in the mall instead of strapping them into a carseat in a stroller or BF toddlers in public or "whatever your thing is" then it wouldn't seem "weird" and more people would do it, so why not be friends?


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

Quote:

I think you are being a little defensive because you are trying to validate your own experience with CIO. And like I said I understand that some of us need to FF and some of us need to get elective CS and all that, but no one NEEDS to let a LO CIO.
No it is not that I am defensive about that particular issue. I am very confident it was the right decision for the whole family at that particular point in time, it worked quickly and I was a better mom for it, and my children had better care from mom for it. What bothers me about this is the judgment back and forth on various issues. I really do not get it! I have spent most of my career working with moms and babies both before and after I had my own children. So many times women are judgemental about others on baby/kid topics, and in this thread, judgemental to the point of not even wanting to be friends! I've seen this being a mom myself, at work, in moms group both as a facilatator and a participant, on internet formums and I am just tired of it! Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV!

I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine. If someone asks an opinion or for information, then I might say something, but otherwise all I am doing is alienating them. What better way to change view points than to be an example. If more people were to carry their babies around in the mall instead of strapping them into a carseat in a stroller or BF toddlers in public or "whatever your thing is" then it wouldn't seem "weird" and more people would do it, so why not be friends?


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

This is more of an issue with new moms. When babies get older (pre-school), this type of conversation just doesn't happen. At all. Thankfully.

I will say that I shot myself in the foot by getting along with someone on a personal level but not agreeing with their parenting style and not being friends. I thought friends could grow on trees and that there would have to be more people like me out there! Wrong.









No matter how you parent, AP or not, you will never.ever.ever agree with another parent 100% on issues, that IMO, are not conversation points.

If you get along with someone, in most circumstances, keep them close. Or, if you like being locked in your house for years like I chose to do by being way too choosy, go for it.

In retrospect, I needed to lighten up. How others parent their kids means little to me. I may not agree, but as long as they think they are doing the right thing and aren't abusing (real abuse) them, whatever. The kids love to play and I can talk about the news and laugh. I don't want to talk about breastfeeding or cracked nipples or birthing. I want to talk about the funny thing I saw the other day, or a good book I read. Life is about getting along with all sorts of people. I have learned that.

As your babe grows up, really, these inane conversations will stop. Make sure that when they are done there is somebody left.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

To the OP, you are normal. You are a first time mom and that's how I was... I was very sensitive to certain things.

By baby # 2, I just mellowed out. I made a new mommy friend, who was in the AP realm (but not 100% as she did CIO). I was shocked as she put her baby down for a nap and let her cry and then she quieted down. But I just let it go. I made a conscious decision not to hold that against her. I saw her as misguided, but she's the mom... she decides what's best for her family, regardless of what I think. I'm sure she sees me as misguided sometimes. Whatever.

Our daughters are best buds now and the person who said you will NEVER agree 100% on everything is right.

I try to remain open and non-judgmental (to avoid all yucky feelings) and welcome friendship (authentic friendships - hard to come by).

I'm by no means perfect. I did some very "right" AP things, but some very wrong (too permissive with discipline and didn't realize it for years). I hardly have the right to judge any other mother.









And the other thing is that I realize I am a much happier person when I don't want around judging other people. (I'm not saying you are smug.) I try not to judge anyone. It really helps me feel light and sane.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

This is more of an issue with new moms. When babies get older (pre-school), this type of conversation just doesn't happen. At all. Thankfully.

I will say that I shot myself in the foot by getting along with someone on a personal level but not agreeing with their parenting style and not being friends. I thought friends could grow on trees and that there would have to be more people like me out there! Wrong.

No matter how you parent, AP or not, you will never.ever.ever agree with another parent 100% on issues, that IMO, are not conversation points.

If you get along with someone, in most circumstances, keep them close. Or, if you like being locked in your house for years like I chose to do by being way too choosy, go for it.

In retrospect, I needed to lighten up. How others parent their kids means little to me. I may not agree, but as long as they think they are doing the right thing and aren't abusing (real abuse) them, whatever. The kids love to play and I can talk about the news and laugh. I don't want to talk about breastfeeding or cracked nipples or birthing. I want to talk about the funny thing I saw the other day, or a good book I read. Life is about getting along with all sorts of people. I have learned that.

As your babe grows up, really, these inane conversations will stop. Make sure that when they are done there is somebody left.










So true. I love this post.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babymommy2* 
I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine.

Uh... really? Why do you think it is a parent's perogative to remove part of an infant's genitals in an unnecessary cosmetic surgery that doesn't even include anesthetia? I call that a human rights violation. That baby's body belongs to HIM, not his parents. It's not even remotely okay. And it won't stop unless people speak up against it, rather than shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well, parent's choice."

I, like most people, become friends with others because we share common ground and can support each other in our lives. Seeing children as people with rights, feelings, integrity, and a need for connection is an essential to me. Actually, nothing is more important than that to me.

And yep, I lost some friends when I became a parent. It was hard and disappointing. And then I made some new ones. It's part of the normal process of growth.

Today, I'm very, very glad that I'm not wasting time on people who don't get my parenting. And that I don't have to explain to my child why Johnny's missing part of his penis, or why Rosie's crying but the people who love her are choosing to ignore it rather than give her comfort. I wouldn't _want_ to normalize those things for him.

As pps have said, the pain of dealing with other people's choices lessens as the kids grow older. It's much easier to be around the CIO crowd with a kid, rather than an infant. But I've also noticed a big, BIG correlation between the 4-5-6 year olds who CIO as babies and the ones who bully on the playground. Making me all the happier that I'm not friends with their mums, lol!


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## my3pirates (Oct 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *green betty* 

. But I've also noticed a big, BIG correlation between the 4-5-6 year olds who CIO as babies and the ones who bully on the playground. Making me all the happier that I'm not friends with their mums, lol!

Really? I think that is really, really unfair. I think it would be just as easy for a mainstream parent to say "I see a huge correlation between the Mommas that use gentle discipline and those children on the playground who don't share, push and don't listen ".

See what I mean? Either way it is super judgmental! Isn't that a complaint we see constantly here? "I also feel like I am being judged"? I have yet to see a study that says babes that CIO are more inclined to become bullies and for you to make that assumption is ignorant. Just as a statement that says extended BF and GD causes kids to be brats.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

There is a seminal difference between blanket judgement and critical thought. As I mentioned, I live in a very small town--I'm not assuming that the kids I see bullying others were left to CIO, I know that they were because I know everyone and far too much about them, lol! My statement is an evidence-based observation. What's more, it's a logical one. Why _wouldn't_ a lack of consistent empathy in a child's experience (ie being left alone to cry it out) result in a lack of consistent empathy in the child's behavior (ie bullying?)

Mainstream mamas are free to observe and think whatever they do about me and my child and other gently nurtured, attached children. It doesn't keep me up at night. So what if they do? My life is about living *my* values, not trying to win a popularity contest.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I go to a local playgroup, and there are lots of moms who have different ideas, or some I just don't like. Sometimes I meet one I really click with. Most of the time I can pick up something interesting, even from the most unlikely people. But I really go for my kids to have some fun, so that's the focus for me.

I also would say, parenting styles don't stay the same. I am a lot more AP with dd2, because I have more experience and confidence, but also because I have seen more parents who had good ideas that worked, and got great resources from them. I am sorry to say I did use CIO with dd1, and someone just said to me once "Was it really important that she sleep like your friends kids?" Not rudely, just asking the question. And now I ask myself that a lot, and it totally relieves pressures from myself or other people.

So I think it can be very positive to mix with other people, and not live in a little AP tower (which is not what I think the OP is doing, but it does seem to be a tendency.)

It's like NIP - if you can begin to just show a different way to do things, you are giving so many new moms a bunch of possibilities that really may never have occurred to them.


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## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I think this is a rude statement too. How would you feel if someone said "oh no, you don't let him sleep in your bed do you?" or "you're not one of those people who breastfeeds for years are you?" It automatically puts the other person on the defensive and makes them feel judged, and that's no way to engage dialogue.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I don't think making friends of varying levels of intimacy is trying to win a popularity contest, personally. And IMO, part of my values are not shutting people out except in cases where they are actively doing me or my family harm, but instead engaging them in a positive, nonadversarial manner to get them to critically think about their choices. So many "choices" are made just because people just do what they know, and they've never been shown or taught any differently. Hell, if I would have parented the way I *thought* I was going to before I had kids, any number of you could be talking about me as the dreaded mainstream mom in this thread...I just happened to have a lightbulb moment or three when my firstborn was an infant, and came into contact with enough supportive, positive, gentle information about attachment parenting that I've come to be the parent I am today. Not every parent has those lightbulb moments on their own though; I was just lucky, I guess.

I've reached many women and had them get into GD, EBF, babywearing, and cosleeping, just by being open and not preachy, and not avoiding them because they're doing things differently than I am. Even though sometimes it's WAY differently than I am.

As I said before, I never stay quiet or condone what they're doing, but I also don't alienate people; I've never had a person react rudely or offensively to me, even if they don't agree with what I'm saying.

I guess the bottom line is while I don't feel like I'm trying to win a popularity contest, I DO feel like AP is good for children and by extension good for the future of the world, and I want to try to facilitate that for my *own* kids, as well as my own future.


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## Gena 22 (Jul 3, 2008)

x


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## bluedaisy (Sep 5, 2008)

I think a lot of mamas do CIO and other mainstream parenting because it's what the "experts" tell them to do and they really think it's what is best for their babies.

I know a lot of moms who let their babies CIO because the dr told them to, but they had a really hard time listening to their babies cry.

I think it's a reflection of our culture that women are encouraged to go against their instincts and listen to "experts" about how to raise their babies.

But at the same time, if you're a new mom and your dr is telling you to let your LO CIO and all your family and friends are telling you that CIO is the only way to get your baby to sleep and that it's not harmful, I can see why you would resort to CIO.

SO I try not to be judgmental because so many women don't realize that it's ok to listen to their instincts. So many moms just go along with what the culture says is normal - CIO, circing, vaxing, ff, etc.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone who is huge advocate of these things and judges my AP style. However, if someone just does these things I would assume that maybe they don't know any better, and I wouldn't hold it against them.

If these mainstream moms are ok with your parenting style,I wouldn't run away from the relationships. Maybe it will make them rethink the way they do things


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

Quote:

Today, I'm very, very glad that I'm not wasting time on people who don't get my parenting. And that I don't have to explain to my child why Johnny's missing part of his penis, or why Rosie's crying but the people who love her are choosing to ignore it rather than give her comfort. I wouldn't want to normalize those things for him.

I agree with what you are saying about circumcision in that it is cosmetic, a normal part of the body, etc, and why we haven't done it, but what I disagree with is deliberatly choosing to not be friends with someone because of it. I don't think so much that avoiding people with differing views will normalize it for my children, I think that being yourself around people with differeing views normalizes it for them.

I teach a particular class and I ask the question how common is circumsicion here? Generally people will say 60, 70, 80% of people circumcise. The answer is 44% and many people are shocked! by this. I think it normalizes that the majority of people here do not cirumcise and the rates have gone down a lot. The canadian average is 27% (this is data from 2007). If more new parents had exposure to the idea of not circumsing, they probably woulnd;t think that 70 % of people do it. And a lot of people chose it to look like dad or to be like other kids, or misinformation on health/hygiene. It is like the argument in the BF community of instead of calling formula, formula it should be called artificial baby milk, or that instead of saying that Breastmilk decreases allergies, say that formula increases allergies. It is changing the perspective to normalize what it is you are doing and you can't normalize to the community at large if you stay in a tight little group of only people who think the way you do.


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## my3pirates (Oct 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluedaisy* 
I think a lot of mamas do CIO and other mainstream parenting because it's what the "experts" tell them to do and they really think it's what is best for their babies.

I know a lot of moms who let their babies CIO because the dr told them to, but they had a really hard time listening to their babies cry.

I think it's a reflection of our culture that women are encouraged to go against their instincts and listen to "experts" about how to raise their babies.

But at the same time, if you're a new mom and your dr is telling you to let your LO CIO and all your family and friends are telling you that CIO is the only way to get your baby to sleep and that it's not harmful, I can see why you would resort to CIO.

SO I try not to be judgmental because so many women don't realize that it's ok to listen to their instincts. So many moms just go along with what the culture says is normal - CIO, circing, vaxing, ff, etc.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone who is huge advocate of these things and judges my AP style. However, if someone just does these things I would assume that maybe they don't know any better, and I wouldn't hold it against them.

If these mainstream moms are ok with your parenting style,I wouldn't run away from the relationships. Maybe it will make them rethink the way they do things

I agree! I just can't imagine thinking that another parent is inferior or doesn't love their child b/c they CIO or FF. I am refuse to be led down a path that believes that babies that CIO will become bullies and non empathetic. I find all of this broad brush painting to be quite a turn off from the AP lifestyle.

If a new Mom were coming here for information and was being told that any past choices they made were "child abuse"...how would that make you feel? Imagine your reaction if someone told you the extended BF were child abuse? It would be an utter turn off, right? I would think the goal here would be acceptance, guidance, information and support. Unfortunately, more and more on these boards I am seeing judging, selfishness and superiority. That makes me sad.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

When a mama tells me that her baby cried for five minutes, I believe her. I'm unsure why being opposed to CIO would mean not believing another woman when she talks about her parenting experience.

As a mama who only has one child, it was very easy for me to "never." Now that my kid is seventeen and having met hundreds of mamas along the way, I have very, very few "nevers" left. I also no longer see most parenting choices as purely "good v. bad." Honestly, by the late teens, I have not noticed a differece in kids I know whose parents used CIO and those who didn't.

I am far more AP as the mother of a teen than I was as the mother of a baby/toddler. And there is even less support for staying attached to your pre-teen/teen, especially if you are parenting a boychild. If you're in this for the long haul, I predict you'll be at least a bit suprised by the company you are keeping when your kids are teens.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

babymommy2 said:


> Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV!
> 
> 
> > I do feel for the moms who get snide comments over doing the things I place a high value in like extended breastfeeding(even though I couldn't EBF I still value it highly and would be bothered by someone having a cavalier attitude towards BFing. I have very high standards, but its because I believe there is a way to treat a child and there are concrete ways not to. I don't feel bad about that _at all._ I would not feel bad being judgemental about certain behaviors I view as abusive to children, either. Over all I think people under-value children in this society and I am personally tired of hearing about how I am supposed to believe that at the heart of it we all love our kids. That just isn't true. IT would be nice, but it's just not. And even then, when you do love them IMO love is not enough. IT takes more than just love to raise a child well.
> ...


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.

For those of you who refuse to be friends with children who are circed, how do you go about this? Do you check everyone's diaper before accepting a playdate? I just find this so odd, because my son is very young, and I have never had any mother ask me if he is circed or not. I can't imagine how a child's genitals even come into the conversation to determine if they are "friend" material or not....


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## soccermama (Jul 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
I just moved to a new place and went to a momma group that I found at meet-up. I should preface this story by saying that I have only ever met/hung out with AP mommas. Even my semi-mainstream family members breastfed/co-slept and didn't CIO (except my sister, but we don't talk.)

Well the meet-up group ended up just being me and one other momma. She was elective c-section, formula feeding by choice, CIO. It was shocking to me. I could handle the elective c-section/formula feeding...I get that a lot of times it is just bad information and lack of support that makes people choose these things, but the CIO really struck a horrible cord with me. When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange. And quite frankly I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

I am so angry that she let her LO CIO. I'm angry but I am jealous too. I want my LO to STTN so bad. Isn't this horrible? How do you mommas handle hanging with more mainstream mommas, or do you just not do it? I don't think I can do it again. I feel so yucky right now. I also don't want to be so judgmental, but CIO just seems so wrong to me, I can't help it.

There is a BIG difference between CIO and fussing. My DS fussed for a little bit before going to sleep at times when he was an infant. His little body knew he was tired but didn't want to go to sleep, so he fought it. Finally, he fell asleep.
We never let him scream or cry himself asleep. I don't consider fussing to be CIO. If anyone else does, please explain it to me.
I'm not 100% AP and I'm not 100% mainstream - pleasantly in the middle!


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.


Yes, you are right. Tolerance is wonderful. But I do not have to be friends (or REMAIN friends) with someone that beats their kids. Or neglects them at night to "train" them. To me, that speaks to their core morals, their personality, their lack of intelligence to figure out a better more loving way to take care of their children. I do not have any desire whatsoever to associate with someone like that.

So maybe I'm intolerant. But I also hate wife-beaters. I hate child molesters. And to me, abusing a child by beating them or neglecting them falls into the same playing field. Not for me.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.

For those of you who refuse to be friends with children who are circed, how do you go about this? Do you check everyone's diaper before accepting a playdate? I just find this so odd, because my son is very young, and I have never had any mother ask me if he is circed or not. I can't imagine how a child's genitals even come into the conversation to determine if they are "friend" material or not....

Maybe it's cultural/demographic or as pps said, maybe it's a new mom thing.

Gosh I can't even bump into a complete stranger at the mall without touching on every hostile topic out there.

"oh how cute! is she sttn? how long did it take to sleep train her?"
"she's so big and chubby, what formula do you use?"
"oh you're not stiiiill using that sling are you? she'll never learn to play without you!"
"is he done?" (no! he's a she and i wouldn't have my son "done"!!! arggghhh)

anyways it goes on and on and it's terribly uncomfortable b/c then i either have to pander/avoid their probes thus sacrificing my activism on the issues or i have to start some argument and i get rude looks like i'm a mutant. and apparently so is my child.

i've learned something: those who practice some of the hot button things such as ff, circ, cio etc are extremely fragile and aggressive. they will not leave you alone until you bow down to them or disappear. so i think a PP said it perfectly when she pointed out that she would remain friends w/ someone despite differences, but would not make new friends. if boundaries are already laid down it is easier to maintain respect. i have yet to meet someone willing to keep it at that level when they are different from me.


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## Draupadi (Jul 19, 2007)

Well...hmmm...i haven't read the whole thread but here goes.
I don't know that many AP moms IRL. Most of the moms I know are very mainstream, and the one that I am the closest to (she lives in my building) is very, very mainstream. She did/does CIO with both of her children. I don't like it at all and it's not the way I would choose to put my LO to sleep. That said, despite our parenting philosophies being so different, she's a fantastic mother who adores her wonderfully happy children.








eta:As someone upthread mentioned, she's been told by her ped, friends, family etc. that CIO is safe and fine so why wouldn't she think it was?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Frankly, I am so sensitive to those things that I just don't hang out with mainstream mamas/groups. I think it might be easier for me to do when my son is older (he's only 16mo right now), but right now I really need the support and don't want to put myself or him in those sorts of upsetting situations.

If I were you, I'd seek out local AP groups organized through meetup.com, API, or MDC. I met a lovely bunch of AP mamas through my local chapter of API and we get together every week for our same-aged kids to play, and every month or so for family potlucks. It keeps me sane for sure.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think we are more sensitive as new moms. i feel bad for people who tell they do things like CIO, Circ, Spank etc.. i am easy read... i can't help it.. trust me i have tried. i can smile and nod through FF and other stuff life that but those three i can't stomach.

no i don't blame you. and i don't blame you for asking if she CIO the way you did... i don't think it was a conscious as much as it probably just slipped out. and i might not have believed the five minutes thing either since it was in response to you obvious horror. poor woman probably had no idea someone would be so horrified by it.

circ does change how i feel about people. my incredibly AP circd her son.. i have no idea why... she seemed interested when i told her why i didn't and then thought it was more prone to infection which i said it is not and then she dropped it so i did to. i love her and i know that if she decides it was the wrong choice thats her business and its a hard and private realization. but it did change how i felt a little it just hurts me to think about. mostly i get mad at the doctors who do it b/c i know with 100% certainty she would not have done it if she didn't think it was the best thing to do


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I am so amazed at all the people who will not let their chilldren play with Muslims or Jews. Speaking of human rights! And please don't say that has nothing to do with circumcision. Wow. Remind me to point out our family's religion right away so we don't have to go through a painful friend divorce later when we leave their bigoted booties!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i firmly believe there is a difference between RIC and religious circumcision. as far as i know most of the Jewish and Muslim Mamas think so too.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Nobody's making that point here, though. Shouldn't be surprised. Every time it seeps out of the circ board, the same comments come up. I'd rather make a mistake and have my child cry for an hour that expose him to a lifetime of hate. Luckily some can find it in their hearts to do neither!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i guess i always assume we are referring to RIC. and as far as i am concerned RIC and religious circumcision are not the same thing. the intent, the procedure, the reasoning, the history is all different. i know some people don't differentiate but i would never ever judge a mama who gave her son a bris or.. i can't recall what the muslim ceremony is called... but that is not my place. wow i am having trouble responding b/c to me the really are completely separate things.. ones a religious ceremony that is not done lightly... and one is a cosmetic procedure


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

ethnocentric is the word i was looking for. two totally different cultures, totally different things. judging Jews or Muslims for circumcising their children based on RIC in the US is completely ethnocentric.


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## my3pirates (Oct 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.

This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i don't think we have instincts about vax particularly. i do think we have the instinct to birth, BF, co sleep (or be near baby), respond to cries etc.

i have a hard time when someone says that they followed their instincts to circ, cio, FF etc. i don't think those things are instinctual. but if i were going to believe someone who told me they were it would be someone on here... so am i totally off? can these things be instinctual?


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I had a similar conversation recently when a mom recommended a book the was clearly a CIO type of book. I said "Well, I've tried some of the techniques in the "No Cry Sleep Solution." I think that let her know where I stood on the matter.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my3pirates* 
This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...

nak

yeah i agree with this









not all moms have a natural instinct or the underlying 'common sense.' i think women are really conditioned to distrust and ignore their body and to distrust and second doubt their instinct and their mind.

everything about us....our cycles, our womb, our ability to give birth, our ability to raise children...it is all criticised and overmanaged. that can negatively impact a woman's confidence and lead her to make poor choices which can harm her children.

i have a friend who did cio w/ her first kid. she is a loving and awesome mama. it was simply a situation where she was the product of an entire culture telling women 'you can't do it. you don't know best. here, we'll teach you.' she even said how sick she felt doing it. but it wasn't until the 2nd time around that she was strong enough to do it her way.

that being said, i still couldn't become good friends w/ someone who is in that place of supporting things such as physical discipline, cio and ric. their mindset is in a different place and especially as several people have already highlighted, their negative self-schema and image/security issues can make for a real fight.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

One of my dearest mom friends circ'ed her son. She's not Jewish or Muslim, it's just something they did. Frankly, I couldn't picture our lives without her or her son, we're all incredibly close and she brings so much love to her child and our children. I don't agree with circumcision in the least, but I if I restricted my friendships to those who made the exact same parenting decisions I do, then I'd have very few friends.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

some people don't know better and you do the best you can with the information you have at the time. however, i cannot stomach it when people have the information and do it anyway. then its not a mistake or a lack of information.. its just wrong.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.

A big problem is lack of support for those who choose not to CIO. It is CONSTANTLY suggested by everyone, including doctors. People trust their docs and friends. In our society we are very often encouraged to ignore our natural instincts. We also live in a country where many, many people are very parent centered instead of child centered. A whole lot of this comes from the pressure women face to stay in the workplace when they have young children and try to juggle everything. We are not a family friendly society.

It is difficult to get past the societal push toward the easier, more convenient way. It's the American way. You go with the crowd unless you do tons of reading and research or have been lucky enough to have been shown another way. The same holds true for formula feeding. It is in your face and waved as the dangling carrot that beckons "This is the easy way and it's still good for your baby. Everyone does it and their babies turn out fine." Then, boom, a few bumps in the road and good-bye nursing, hello formula. For those who have trouble, they have to be very committed to BF to overcome this attitude. I know that I was SO tempted to throw in the towel, but I was lucky. I have a best friend who BF and drove over 200 miles to be with me and help me get started. She was also a big influence on me b/c I knew she struggled with being the only one around who didn't CIO.

I luckily choose the Dr. Sears Baby Book to read while I was pregnant. If I hadn't read that book I don't know exactly where I'd be.

So I guess all I'm saying is that if you try to follow your natural instincts it's an uphill battle all the way.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely _care_ and _love_ their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.

You can live in a world by yourself (because truly everybody's parenting style is different from the next - nobody will ever parent the exact same way you do) or you can set your differences aside and make great friendships.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think thats definitely true. for some people it feels easy and we can't understand why it isn't for others. i am confident and a little pig headed.. and when i know i am right its nearly impossible to change my mind (you have to out reason me) some people are not as comfortable telling everybody else to take a hike. and some people how know what they think is right have a hard time standing up for themselves when people argue.


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## my3pirates (Oct 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely _care_ and _love_ their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.

You can live in a world by yourself (because truly everybody's parenting style is different from the next - nobody will ever parent the exact same way you do) or you can set your differences aside and make great friendships.

Thank you! That is what I was trying to say...although you said it much more eloquently!


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

I know I've piped up before, but I just wanted to say something else.

We're all on a different path in terms of our parenting journey. Some of us are still finding our senses, and some of us are confidently trekking of the mountain. However, we're all trying to learn, and to gain more perspective. Sometimes, our parenting style will literally take us down a different path then a dear friend. I don't think it's that you want to end the friendship, but when you can't find anything to talk about that doesn't end in awkward silence because someone has said something inconsiderate, it's hard not to drift from that.

I personally get so much flack from my IL's for parenting AP, and quite frankly, it's all I can take. I need to be surrounded by supportive, like minded mom's- not because I'm not a confident mom, but because being constantly told I'm wrong, or I don't know what I'm doing is draining, and sad.

It's not intolerant to not want to be around Mom's who parent differently. It's one thing if you are all respectful of each other and your opinions, but it's another when you feel attacked, or get those "looks". I personally HATE being told to let my DS CIO. Hate it. I have one girlfriend who constantly suggests it to me, and I finally had to shut her down and say, "I don't believe in it, there are no studies that prove it actually works permanently, and there are studies that prove it actually does more harm then good." She STILL brings it up. Why would I want to hang out with someone like that?

It's not intolerance, it's just a human matter of wanting to have a safe, supportive network.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my3pirates* 
This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...

Well, luckily the people who know me love me and respect me for who I am and why I do what I do, that's good enough for me!

Also, I feel like for me it is about the kids. Kids are in the unfortunate position of not being able to stick up for themselves. They are stuck with what their parents think is right/better/easier etc. They are stuck with whatever treatment they get "out of love" or whatever.
Adults have options, obligations to seek out the truth and do right by their kids as their responsibility dictates.
My feelings are for the kids who have no choices, not the adults who didn't look into their options or follow their intuition or whatever excuse you or they can come up with to justify why they do what they do.

Maybe that is arrogat, but it feels right to me.
I have to be true to me.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely _care_ and _love_ their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.


It's funny, I was at a friend's place and his two daughters both have kids the same age and he said exactly the same thing you did, completely unprompted. He said one DD homebirthed, no vax, co-sleep, nursed til the kid was 3, self weaned etc. Other DD had the kid in the hospital, vax, bottlefed, slept in the crib etc. He said you'd never be able to tell the kids apart. And really, knowing the amount of kids I do with the vast differences of parenting styles of the parents, they're all pretty much the same. Happy go lucky kids. I think that's a really nice thing, because it just screams to me despite our differences, we all love our kids and teach them love and respect for others and that is probably the most important thing about parenting, no matter the route.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

I can tell a difference between kids that were beat and kids that weren't.


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## mamaUK (Jul 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange. And quite frankly I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

.

some babies really do only fuss for 5 minutes. Sometimes you get babies who are so content they really don't scream and cry in the night for hours on end. I hope you didn't judge her to quickly.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
I can tell a difference between kids that were beat and kids that weren't.

Honestly, this is why GD is my single biggest AP platform issue. I also can usually tell the difference between kids who have had positive but firm discipline versus those who have either had overly permissive parenting or overly harsh parenting.

cosleeping, breastfeeding, all other AP practices are wonderful and go a long way in creating a deep bond between a child and parent - but honestly, if I had to pick one single thing to convert parents all over the world, and it could only be one thins I would choose GD, hands down over breastfeeding, or cosleeping or vaxing or even circumcision - it reaches every aspect of a child's life, and results in lifelong effects that others may or may not.

I was formula fed, never coslept, mom let me CIO one night for 15 min when I was under a year old and I never cried again (and she is not an exaggerator or liar, so I trust her on that), we didn't use natural healthcare products or organic food (though mom did cook from scratch largely)- so I had a pretty darn mainstream baby and childhood...BUT - BUT - *BUT!* They were GD to the core...and it has had such a profound impact on my entire life, that it is the single most important parenting choice I personally can think of...many other AP things kind of fade away as children get beyond the baby/toddler years, or at least fade in outward appearances...but GD goes on throughout your child and teen years and even beyond, and IMO is the most far-reaching parenting choice a parent can make.

Sooo, it's the one I'm most vocal about.

So while I can kind of agree that by the time kids get to be 5 years old or so it is difficult to tell the difference outwardly between a formula fed child and a breastfed child, or a CIOd child versus a cosleeping child (though this one usually correlates with AP more than others, too), or a stroller child vs a babyworn child, I can absolutely say in my own personal experience I can often see a difference in kids that have been parented with GD versus other discipline philosphies.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

But... hopefully an AP'd child perpetuates that love and attachment to his or her own children. THAT is the difference!


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## nudhistbudhist (Jan 13, 2009)

I thik its easier for you to feel "superior" in a sense because you've made choices based on information and people you've had access to in your life, whom had a positive effect on your parenting. It's hard to see people causing pain "unknowingly" (they dont really realize what they are doing, even though it so obvious to us). However, there are might be people who think that YOU are causing unneccesary stress to your child, even though you may not realize that you are. If there was a more baby friendly way of doing something that you werent aware of, wouldn't you rather have someone share it with you rather than judge you and leave the room?

What if I said when you were changing your infant's cloth diaper "You dont ACTUALLY let him poo and pee in his pants do you?! That's disgusting." just because I had information and support on how to learn my newborn baby's bathroom cues and you have been told that baies need diapers. If I chose not to be friends with you because your baby was in diapers, you would feel hurt, and your baby might have missed the chance to communicate his bathroom needs. I see infants all the time who are trying to get their moms attention regarding pees and poops, but most mums aren't aware. Perhaps one day, when most parents have tuned in with their infants needs, IT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED CHILD ABUSE TO LET YOUR CHILD SIT IN WASTE, AND "DIAPER RASH" WILL BE A SIGN ON NEGLECT!! Obviously at this point in time, I don't expect or think that the parents who have their children in diapers are "bad," just unaware of this aspect of infant communication

stay open, and teach eachother







where's the love? We moms need to stick together and quit hating!!!!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nudhistbudhist* 
What if I said when you were changing your infant's cloth diaper "You dont ACTUALLY let him poo and pee in his pants do you?! That's disgusting." just because I had information and support on how to learn my newborn baby's bathroom cues and you have been told that baies need diapers. If I chose not to be friends with you because your baby was in diapers, you would feel hurt, and your baby might have missed the chance to communicate his bathroom needs. I see infants all the time who are trying to get their moms attention regarding pees and poops, but most mums aren't aware.

This is a great example and really made me think.
I would be pretty happy to have a real life friend who was actually ECing, that would rock and push me to want to do more, not make me feel bad. I would be glad for the push. And I would understand and sympathize with her level of empathy for children.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Honestly, this is why GD is my single biggest AP platform issue. I also can usually tell the difference between kids who have had positive but firm discipline versus those who have either had overly permissive parenting or overly harsh parenting.

cosleeping, breastfeeding, all other AP practices are wonderful and go a long way in creating a deep bond between a child and parent - but honestly, if I had to pick one single thing to convert parents all over the world, and it could only be one thins I would choose GD, hands down over breastfeeding, or cosleeping or vaxing or even circumcision - it reaches every aspect of a child's life, and results in lifelong effects that others may or may not.

I was formula fed, never coslept, mom let me CIO one night for 15 min when I was under a year old and I never cried again (and she is not an exaggerator or liar, so I trust her on that), we didn't use natural healthcare products or organic food (though mom did cook from scratch largely)- so I had a pretty darn mainstream baby and childhood...BUT - BUT - *BUT!* They were GD to the core...and it has had such a profound impact on my entire life, that it is the single most important parenting choice I personally can think of...many other AP things kind of fade away as children get beyond the baby/toddler years, or at least fade in outward appearances...but GD goes on throughout your child and teen years and even beyond, and IMO is the most far-reaching parenting choice a parent can make.

Sooo, it's the one I'm most vocal about.

So while I can kind of agree that by the time kids get to be 5 years old or so it is difficult to tell the difference outwardly between a formula fed child and a breastfed child, or a CIOd child versus a cosleeping child (though this one usually correlates with AP more than others, too), or a stroller child vs a babyworn child, I can absolutely say in my own personal experience I can often see a difference in kids that have been parented with GD versus other discipline philosphies.


wow thanks for the interesting post. i would also argue that you can tell the difference on other topics as well. for example, i can always tell if a baby/small toddler is fed milk or formula. and i can tell if an older child is fed cow's milk or is dairy free. there is a big difference in their structure and health (e.g. bags under the eyes/mucus). i didn't think this was even up for argument; it was just the way it was.

i guess you could also say other things can cause a difference too, such as babywearing and 'responding quickly' could raise an attached and happy baby. the problem with going into such an argument is that imo a lot of it is genetic and personality based. i think my dd would be a happy camper whether i wore her or not. she is just happy.


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## nudhistbudhist (Jan 13, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
This is a great example and really made me think.
I would be pretty happy to have a real life friend who was actually ECing, that would rock and push me to want to do more, not make me feel bad. I would be glad for the push. And I would understand and sympathize with her level of empathy for children.

We have a parents group where mums can come and socialize, plus an "infosession" on random topics each week. My gf asked to do an EC info session, and so many mums were so amazed, they went home and tried it themselves. I spoke also, and actually ended up doing a lil demo with my tiny baby who had to pee. I just whipped out his yogurt container with lid, and peed him right there







It was wonderful. It just went to show us how much parents need support and information to make choices... with out knowing your options, you're not really "making a choice."

The CIO method is not promoted at all in our parent group. Parents are instructed to hold their babies, even if they cry in arms, it is better than crying alone







This is a group put on by the government. I'm working up the courage to do an infosession on antivax, since they only do pro-vax ones. I'm just too passionate and dont wan't to end up getting mad









I really think in this day and age, most parents do seek out more info than what their doctor and parents offer in order to do what is best for they LO. Gotta love the internet. There is hope for us yet!!!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

you can do it! i would have loved an info session like that! until MDC not vaxxing had never even crossed my mind.


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## nudhistbudhist (Jan 13, 2009)

Thank you for your vote of confidence







I just get so angry when the publice health nurse comes in and says her bit. When I brought up mercury, for example, she says "Well, there's no more mercury in a vaccination than there is in a can of tuna." Interesting. I stopped eating tuna 4 years ago because of the MERCURY CONTENT!!! and the impact on the ocean too. Our own gov't says you shouldn't eat tuna more that once a month while pregnant. And thats for a full size human!!!!!

Oooops sorry. Rant.

Here's some love and good thoughts to moms and dads every where to dig deep and uncover truths for themselves, and spread the word, whether its about vax, circ, BF, EC, CIO, GD, co-sleeping, babywearing and all our other beautiful babylovin practices


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