# "Why Do We Let Them Dress That Way?"



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Great article in the Wall Street Journal asks why do we let our girls dress that way?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703899704576204580623018562.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I think we all struggle with variations on some of these questions.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Wait, I'm confused... It sounds like she's saying the reason most mothers let their daughters do all these things is because mom did it and regretted it so she doesn't want it for her daughters... Some one please help, I might just be tired from a long night.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Lol! Good point. I think she's conflicted. I'll have to go back and read it some time when I'm a bit more focused.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Wait, I'm confused... It sounds like she's saying the reason most mothers let their daughters do all these things is because mom did it and regretted it so she doesn't want it for her daughters... Some one please help, I might just be tired from a long night.


I think the article said the moms are confused about their own sexuality (or their sexual past) and how to resolve being a woman with being sexual. She also said women do not want to be hypocrits (perhaps even to themselves). I am not sure though - the writing is a little murky.

I will admit my daughter (12) wears more make-up than I am comfortable with. She does not usually dress in ways I find inappropriate, but occasionally she pushes the line a bit. I do not say anything because I think it is her body, her choice. I also hope it is a phase, lol..


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## NannyMcPhee (Nov 24, 2010)

Dress like ''what'' exactly? That article was creepy and shaming. When can we have girls and women do what they want without being judged about being too ''slutty''.

This quote...

Quote:


> But it's easy for parents to slip into denial. We wouldn't dream of dropping our daughters off at college and saying: "Study hard and floss every night, honey-and for heaven's sake, get laid!" But that's essentially what we're saying by allowing them to dress the way they do while they're still living under our own roofs.


Is disgusting. Is she saying that dressing in short skirts makes you a promiscuous? I don't buy the stuff about how girls are having more sex now than before either. All generations did the same thing. One generation may be shocked at their daughter showing off some ankle, another by their daughter wearing pants instead of dresses, and another that their daughters are wearing make-up. It all comes back to a feeling of ownership over womens bodies and the extremely wrong notion that somehow dress is tied to sexual choices.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

No,the clothes don't MAKE you promiscuous any more than glasses make you smart. But they DO project a certain image. Let's face it, we are all human. We each have our own point where we draw the line of modesty and acceptable behavior/dress. Of course, our "line" is influenced by not just our genetic personality, but by our background, upbringing, and the culture around us. That is why I can be wearing a long sleeved tee and ankle length skirt but when I breastfeed in public, I get "cover yourself" comments from people clad in tank tops and daisy dukes. Obviously that is skewed thinking. But regardless everyone, unless they are nudists, has a line that they draw regarding what is modest.

All the author is saying is that parents who have already experienced wild promiscuous behavior know better than their daughters what image is projected by certain dress. Whether or not you agree that a girl in a miniskirt is a "skank" is a personal opinion. But it doesn't change what people around her think, and how they interact with her based on her appearance. So by allowing and encouraging their daughters to dress a certain way, they are giving their implicit consent to certain behavior. I think that's what she is saying.

I'm not a prude, at ALL. But I see her point. You can't control other people's perceptions of you. No matter how professional and intelligent you are, guaranteed if you show up to an interview in your bathing suit, you won't get hired. Likewise, if a guy is looking to get laid, (not a relationship) he is more likely to pick the girl in the 4 inch heels and leather skirt than the one with a pony tail and jeans. That is partly because of media influence perpetuating those stereo types and partly because it's human nature, I think, to go for the most skin and the sexiest attire. That being said, I do know some guys who enjoy the "chase" of trying to get a "good girl."

FWIW, my DP will not allow our 10 month old dd to wear a two piece bathing suit and he has expressed fairly conservative values for her regarding her future dress. When I asked him why he said "I'm a man and I know how men are." So I guess that tells you what camp HE is in. And I assure you heis not a prude nor a conservative type person. He just recognizes that no matter how innocent and pure his dd is she WILL be viewed a certain way by men if she dresses a certain way.

hopefully any of that makes some sense, I'm tired and trying to interact with my 3 yr old at the same time!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

My dd is 17 and just now trying out some slightly skimpier clothes. And just had her ears pierced.

As far as the image thing... why advertise sex/sexiness if you aren't interested? There's plenty of great styles out there without being so bare.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Two reactions: The first is the observation that the writer is operating from a shame-based paradigm, which I do not share nor would I want to impart to my daughters. She has divided grown women into two groups: those with regrets, and those who stayed chaste until after marriage. She describes a sexually active woman in college as a "campus mattress," for cripes sakes! But don't mistake her, she's compassionate -- those type of women clearly need therapy, not judgment! Wow. It's like in her world women are incapable of sexual enjoyment. Sad.

Second reaction concerns the clothing, and actually connects with my first reaction: the problem with young girls dressing this way is not that they're becoming sexual beings, it's that they're learning to become sexual objects. We live in a very visual society, and the girls are being taught to present their bodies in a particular way, not for their own individual expression or their own desires, but to align with the image being presented, the image of "desirability." This is packaged in all sorts of ways, including "girl power." I would have the same issue if the clothing was extremely modest.

I don't know why we enable our girls to do this though; maybe because so many grown women haven't worked through the issues themselves.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree w/ Annie Mac's analysis is the problem of girls becoming sexual objects rather than beings.

I also dislike these sorts of articles that present one small sub-section of society (upper middle-class girls from a New Jersey suburb and their parents, basically the author's social circle) and its concerns as universal. It's not. Too bad she regrets her sexual history before marriage. I look back on my own history with fondness.

When my daughter was about 11 or 12 I shared w/ her my concerns about heavy make-up and short skirts etc. I was pretty up front and explained that they made her look very pretty and also *older* and that they might attract the sort of attention from men and older boys that she would not really be ready to handle. That seemed to help. We continue to talk about what ads and billboards and movies try to tell us women about our bodies and how to behave. Maybe of the author spoke to her daughter and other young women honestly about these issues instead of writing Op-Eds for the Wall Street Journal, she would be less angst-ridden.


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## NannyMcPhee (Nov 24, 2010)

So because ''society'' thinks young women who dress a certain way are sexually active we should just accept it? and bow down it this ridiculous notion? Girls should not be encouraged or enabled to dress it a way they find fun or fashionable because someone might get the wrong idea about them? I find that extremely sad and disconcerting. Once again people are putting their focus on young girls bodies instead of attacking the insidious notions in this society that somehow all women are responsible for being objectified, just for being.

Its a depressing thing to say but women will be attacked and judged and blamed no matter what they wear. There is always someone out there that is going to put off their sexist, derogatory behaviour onto the victims of it. For goodness sake a girl can't put on a party dress and go out dancing without it being manipulated into a sexual thing.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Hmm, maybe we should be telling our daughters to "get laid" when they go off to college instead of societies "put out".

Just randomly thinking here, so try not to get angry or anything.

Obviously we shouldn't be encouraging young women to do things they aren't comfortable with, if your daughter doesn't want to have sex yet then telling her to do so would be a major no-no, but most young women are at some point going to be sexually active before or once they get to post secondary. The problem arises with common western ideology that "girls" who "put out" are dirty, vile, creatures that should be shunned and avoided and made to feel bad. Even when parents try their hardest to instill a sense of self control in their daughters in regards to her sexuality, she is bombarded with everyone else telling her she doesn't really want it, she wouldn't really do it, it is a horny, out of control male and his penis that make her do it. She ends up surrounded by people telling her what to do, what not to do, with very few people telling her to do what she feels is the right thing to do.

There is a really screwed up idea about female sexuality out there. Where a woman "puts out" and a man "get's laid", in other words, she gives something up to him and he gets something from her. So, yeah, maybe we should be telling our daughters to "get laid" if they feel like it's what they want.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Also, we should judge people based on who they are and not what they wear (I seem to be saying that a lot lately).


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Hmm, maybe we should be telling our daughters to "get laid" when they go off to college instead of societies "put out".
> 
> ...


We should! And you're 100% right about society's attitudes that somehow men "get" something, while women must "give" something. Actually, if you look at it from a technical standpoint, it's very much the opposite. Of course, the problem is bigger than the individual parents, but change starts somewhere, right?

I see quite a disturbing trend in the many images and "role models" (yes, I absolutely mean those quotation marks) our daughters are exposed to from a very young age. It's a repackaging of the same old sexist stuff in feminist wrapping. You know, the women who say they felt "empowered" by the opportunity to pose for Playboy (to be the only naked one in the room and then have your body "corrected" and airbrushed), or that wearing clothes that are popularized by media images and mass-produced in China are "expressions of individuality." I also recall one piece of sexual chicanery from my own misguided youth: the propensity of young women to pretend to be lesbians in order to attract the attention of the males in the room. This was just a strange one & I imagine young women are still doing it, as the media is still projecting strongly the idea that men really like to watch two women kiss each other (etc). It seemed such a blatant example of being something you were not in order to objectify oneself in the eyes of the opposite sex -- because we are taught to objectify ourselves.

And, yes, there are more positive role models out there, but for every Gloria Steinem there are ten Brittany Spears. And the fact that I can't think of a contemporary positive role model also really sucks.

I've got another answer for why we dress our daughters like this: it's because it's what is in the stores. Even for little girls (like early elementary school age), that's what is available. This starts early. There are pageants and Disney princesses and mythology galore that tells them that what really counts is being pretty and bagging the husband. At any cost.


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

The fashion industry is really being let off the hook in this article. Have any of you done any shopping for formal dresses these days? OMG, it's SOOOOOOO hard to find a dress that is at least mid-thigh and has some sort of straps... even spaghetti. My own DD is a pretty conservative dresser and wanted something just a little classier and it really was difficult to track down in our area. She needed a teen size because she's so slender but the options in the teen sections were all pretty skanky to be honest and she hated them. The higher-end boutiques had options in very slender sizes but few can afford them (certainly we couldn't.) Some of DD's friends wore the dresses mentioned in the article but they were very obviously uncomfortable constantly pulling them up to cover their chest more but simultaneously pulling them down to cover their butts. The last dress DD wore to Winter formal was pretty much the only one that she felt comfortable in.... no real choice as to style, print or color. Even shoes.... you can wear flats or you can wear 5 inch heals. There is little inbetween though certainly easier to find than a more modest formal dress. We can complain about what girls wear and analyze why parents let them all we want but lets also recognize that they are given very few options.

I feel this article focused on parent's fear of hypocrisy but there are many other reasons they let their child dress in ways they are uncomfortable with. Some parents just feel powerless. They have to work hard to make ends meet. They have little time with their child and they just don't want to spend that time fighting. There are also some that complain about what their child wears but privately, they are happy their child looks like the other girls, is popular and has boys interested in her.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

> There are also some that complain about what their child wears but privately, they are happy their child looks like the other girls, is popular and has boys interested in her.


I know a lot of people like this. Because of my background I even catch myself worrying and comparing my kids to others. Everyone wants their child t be liked and to fit in.

I'm also finding shopping for a girl for the first time that literally from birth on, EVERYTHING is princess princess princess. I mean, I don't have a vendetta against disney, but I have not seen even ONE shirt displaying, say, a race car, or tools, or even sports (other than cheering pom poms)

According to my friend it goes straight from disney princess to hannah montana around 2nd grade and then to straight adult styles by middle school.

Now what I really don't get is the underwear battle. As long as the important parts are covered, does it matter whether it's a thong, g string, granny panties or whatever. I know people who g berserk about their teen dds wearing "sexy" underwear. The way I see it it's not like anyone can see it, so who cares! And if someone IS seeing it, then the parent's issue lies with the fact that the dd is sexually active, which has nothing to do with the type of underwear being worn. I see mothers and daughters fighting about this in the store ALL. THE. TIME.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> I've got another answer for why we dress our daughters like this: it's because it's what is in the stores. Even for little girls (like early elementary school age), that's what is available. This starts early. There are pageants and Disney princesses and mythology galore that tells them that what really counts is being pretty and bagging the husband. At any cost.


Okay, I hear that excuse a lot. Especially from working moms... "its what's in the stores". Jeesh. If you look around hard enough, there is nice clothing for your girl that doesn't look "too mature". Land's End, Hanna Anderson, thrift stores, basics at JCPenney and Sears.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I don't really buy it either. Particularly not in BC, I live in BC too and we have no problem finding clothes for DD that are modest enough for her to be comfortable in them. Sure there is a lot of less modest clothing out there, but not all of it.

That being said, Annie Mac does live on the island which isn't a major hub as far as population though so it just may be harder to find a variety there.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

LOTS of great posts here.









While I do understand what the author is saying, I also feel like I have personally worked through some of those issues that she hasn't. Musician Dad, you are RIGHT ON. There is another option for our daughters. It's not either modest or promiscuous. There's also the option to be personally sexually interested.

Quote:


> OMG, it's SOOOOOOO hard to find a dress that is at least mid-thigh and has some sort of straps... even spaghetti.


Yup.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I don't really buy it either. Particularly not in BC, I live in BC too and we have no problem finding clothes for DD that are modest enough for her to be comfortable in them. Sure there is a lot of less modest clothing out there, but not all of it.
> 
> That being said, Annie Mac does live on the island which isn't a major hub as far as population though so it just may be harder to find a variety there.


Of course there is modest clothing. I didn't mean there was ONLY promiscuous looking clothing. But there is plenty of it, and even the very young girl (baby, toddler) has questionable selection. They're covered, sure, but with slogans like "diva in training" and "little princess" and "spoiled brat."


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Daily clothing isn't too difficult with the current styles. I'm certainly glad that my DD is a teen now and not 6 years ago when bare mid-riff was popular. Even 2 years ago, you were hard pressed to find a pair of non-skinny jeans in a teen size. Recently when I was helping out a costumer friend, we were laughing how none of the girls knew where their waist actually is because all their pants are made low-rise. Tops are getting flowy again which is nice especially for girls who aren't bean poles. However, that is right now. Who knows what will be popular in 3 years. Formal attire is still very difficult even online (and it sounded like the girls mentioned in the article were dressed up since they were wearing the heals.) We ordered a dress that looked good on the model but it was much lower cut in the chest than it seemed in the picture and we had to send it back. Like I said, we did eventually find something but it took many trips, many stores and what we got was something she was comfortable in not something she neccessarily loved which is sad.

Personally, I want my DD to have the chance to identify with her generation is she wants to. I know I have fun laughing with friends about out the 80's and what we wore then. It's natural for teens to want their own look apart from their parents and their little siblings. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that. Landsend and the like has great stuff for kids and we ordered from them frequantly when DD was like 9. However, they don't have anything for teens really. I wish the fashion industry offered them real choices... a way to be fashionable but still comfortable. Really, why is it that 2 years ago the only options was skinny jeans or jean shopping in your mother's section? Why can't they offer modest versions, styles that look good on various body types (because some clothing can look suitable on one body type only to look questionable on another.) Can a girl find modest clothing? Of course. Will they feel like they fit on campus? Not neccessarily and that's sad to me.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NannyMcPhee*
> 
> So because ''society'' thinks young women who dress a certain way are sexually active we should just accept it? and bow down it this ridiculous notion?


 And apparently we must not only accept - from the sounds of this thread, women seem to actively encourage this kind of objectivisation, and also buy into the idea that there is something wrong with a woman being sexually active.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> And apparently we must not only accept - *from the sounds of this thread,* women seem to actively encourage this kind of objectivisation, and also buy into the idea that there is something wrong with a woman being sexually active.


Can you explain further what you mean, please? Very specifically, *who* is saying that women (or teen girls) should be objectified and there is something wrong with them being sexually active? I'm not sure who you are referring to in 'this thread'.

Who, exactly, do you say is saying this?


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## grethel (Mar 14, 2009)

Interesting thread. I agree with a lot of what Annie Mac said upthread re the article coming from a very shame-based place. Obviously, each family has their own morals and ethics, and should raise their children according to what they feel is right. It's going to be tough to objectively discuss the issue when we come from different places regarding the role of sexuality in a young woman's life.

From my perspective, our culture is a mess. Women are still regarded as sex objects, even if it's through the lens of "empowerment." Should a girl be able to wear whatever she wants (and to have sex, if she's emotionally ready) and not be shamed as a "slut?" Absolutely. But I think our society as a whole isn't supportive. For that reason, I actively encourage my young teen to dress modestly.

It is possible to reject the whole Disney machine and the clothes that go along with it from a young age. When we buy from stores, I shop for my toddler a lot in the boy's section. She lives in overalls, as did my older dd. If we don't buy the "diva in training" or princessy stuff, they'll stop making it. My 13 year old prefers thrift stores, and likes a more eclectic look - but I have it easy in that department as she's not very susceptible to peer pressure.

I think it really helps too to remember that although society sees women a certain way, we are our daughters' best and most prominent role models. How do we portray ourselves as women? Are we overly concerned with our looks, with outward sexual attractiveness to men, with being "hot?" I hope that I am acting as a good example for my girls by liking how I look without makeup or sexy clothes. I know they may want to experiment with different looks, especially in the teens, and with the new and exciting power of sexuality that comes with puberty. But hopefully they'll come back to what they learned at home.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I agree with the article. Unfortunately, an individual is not going to change an entire SOCIETY'S way of perceiving people. You can be as chaste as you want and wear clothes that are revealing, but nobody on the street is going to stop you and say, "Hey, you're dressed like a prostitute, but I don't want to judge on appearances, so I was wondering if you really are promiscuous or just dress like you are because you like the clothes." People do portray an image. People do make first impressions. People do make snap judgments. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who dress the way they do to send a message: I'm wearing this sheer and barely-there dress because I want to get laid tonight. Some wear the same thing, but don't want to get laid... but the question is what are they trying to say? The bottom line is that if you are dressing to get attention... attention, you'll get, whether that is the attention you want or not. I don't believe for ONE SECOND that girls of even 12 and 13 do not have a clue about the responses they elicit by the way they dress. It is society that has given women that power... we can wield it how we want.

I believe in self-expression, so I don't think prohibiting something is necessarily good, but I think that at 12 years of age, our kids do still need some parenting. I'm not sure how we'll approach this, as dd is only 9, but dh is from a Muslim Middle Eastern country, where moderation is the norm. There is a huge difference between a pre-teen girl just coming into womanhood and a woman of 17/18 who has had years of coming to terms (for lack of a better way of putting it) with her own sexuality. I agree with the pp's who say that it comes down to sexuality vs. sex object. We're talking about 12 and 13 year olds here... I can't believe anyone would say that a girl that age is prepared to be involved in a sexual relationship... is it then okay to give off signals that that is what they're looking for? Do we have to fund it with our credit cards? Great thread with a lot of food for thought!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I know plenty of people, male and female, straight and gay, who don't look at a provocatively dressed woman and think "she's looking to get laid".


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I thought it was a poorly written article. It doesn't reflect my reality (or that of my DDs) at all.

But the 12 and 13 year olds I know don't dress like whores. May be it's a location thing. That's just not what I see where I live.

Or may be I have a better idea of what whores dress like. The photo with the article had girls wearing t-shirts and earrings. It that whorish now? Earrings are now the sign of a true slut? Seriously?


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I wondered about that photo. Those looked like pretty regular teen girls to me!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I thought it was a poorly written article. It doesn't reflect my reality (or that of my DDs) at all.
> 
> ...


Nice girls don't wear earrings, or t-shirts (that implies *gasp* pants), or make up. *sarcasm over, though I've heard stuff like that before*

You do make a good distinction between how most teen and pre-teen girls dress and how prostitutes dress while working though. Though some girls come really, really close. It's also important to remember that not all prostitutes dress provocatively, some are fairly covered.

That being said, you sparked me into doing some research and I found out prostitution isn't illegal in Canada, just many of the activities involved in street prostitution are. You only break the law if you are publicly announcing your job, have a brothel, or acting as an in between for the buyer and the seller.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Adding, the photo, however, is likely just a stock photo of "young teen girls" they have laying around so they don't have to google "young teen girls" (which I advise against, for obvious reasons).


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I actually came away feeling really sorry for the author. This statement is so outside of my own experience:

Quote:


> Not all of us are former good-time girls now drowning in regret-I know women of my generation who waited until marriage-but that's certainly the norm among my peers.


So she is saying that the norm of her friends who had sex before marraige (not were promiscious, not were sexually used or abused...) but simply had sex before marraige are "downing in regret"? Seriously, where is she getting this?

From the people *I* know the group that has the biggest regrets/angst around their sexuality seem to be people who were abused or felt coerced in sexual situations. She goes on to say:

Quote:


> I don't know one of them who doesn't have feelings of lingering discomfort regarding her own sexual past. And not one woman I've ever asked about the subject has said that she wishes she'd "experimented" more.


Maybe I just know too many well adjusted people though. No, seriously, I don't. But I do know several people who while they don't wish they had experiemented more, wish they had had the opportunity to do so. I for example don't wish I had experimented more, but that is soley because I met my DP when I was 16. So, the only way for me to have experiemented more would have been to start earlier OR not become serious at 17 with my DP. Looking back, though, having spent over half my life attached to DP, I think it would have been cool *in some ways* to have found him as a junior in college instead of a junior in high school, kwim. And I know plenty of other women & men who feel that way.

So, I guess FME, there are many people out there who do wish there had been more personal sexual exploration.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> Two reactions: The first is the observation that the writer is operating from a shame-based paradigm, which I do not share nor would I want to impart to my daughters. She has divided grown women into two groups: those with regrets, and those who stayed chaste until after marriage. She describes a sexually active woman in college as a "campus mattress," for cripes sakes! But don't mistake her, she's compassionate -- those type of women clearly need therapy, not judgment! Wow. It's like in her world women are incapable of sexual enjoyment. Sad.
> 
> ...












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


But you said it yourself, "IF YOU LOOK AROUND HARD ENOUGH." Yes, I made the effort to dress DD conservatively, in what I felt were age appropirate clothing. But I had to online order (Lands End), visit other cities (Hanna Anderson Outlet, Carters outlet) or just plain spend more money and time then simply running into Wal-Mart and throwing the first few things I saw in the cart. Was it a huge deal? Not for me. But it WASN'T that convenient.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> LOTS of great posts here.
> 
> ...










ITA.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whatsnextmom*
> 
> Personally, I want my DD to have the chance to identify with her generation is she wants to. I know I have fun laughing with friends about out the 80's and what we wore then. It's natural for teens to want their own look apart from their parents and their little siblings. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that. Landsend and the like has great stuff for kids and we ordered from them frequantly when DD was like 9. However, they don't have anything for teens really. I wish the fashion industry offered them real choices... a way to be fashionable but still comfortable. Really, why is it that 2 years ago the only options was skinny jeans or jean shopping in your mother's section? Why can't they offer modest versions, styles that look good on various body types (because some clothing can look suitable on one body type only to look questionable on another.) Can a girl find modest clothing? Of course. Will they feel like they fit on campus? Not neccessarily and that's sad to me.


ITA. I have been able to get DD a couple tops and a couple swim suit bottoms (Lands End has built in bikini bottoms in their girls swim shorts which I love) in the past year or so, but those will probably be the last Lands End items she gets for years (except, perhaps, shoes, fleece outerwear...). She is 12. For us, Hanna Anderson (except for some pajamas) didn't work after 4th grade or so. Considering all of the money I spent to make my child not a walking billboard when she was younger, it could be a bit frustrating to see herself willingly plaster herself with brand logos and wear clothes that are worse quality as well as being less comfortable than the things I would dress her in. But I also really understand wanting to fit in, wanting to choose your own things... Which is why Aeropostale now has another hundred dollars of mine from this past week. DD is even comfortable enough to say (to me, I assume not to her friends), "I want to get this because everyone else has one" and is self-aware enough to say, "I'm going to get the one with the logo across the front--- if I'm going to wear it so it's like everyone else, I want them to know it." It's funny, but it also, IMO, shows a level of trust of both me (that she doesn't have to invent a reason) and herself (that she can admit a desire to fit-in and work towards that) that I appreciate. I would have been HORRIFIED at her age to try to explain to my mom that I just wanted to fit in, kwim.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I know plenty of people, male and female, straight and gay, who don't look at a provocatively dressed woman and think "she's looking to get laid".


These sound more like the people I know. And the type of people I want my children to become.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I know plenty of people, male and female, straight and gay, who don't look at a provocatively dressed woman and think "she's looking to get laid".


That's exactly what I was thinking.

Also, a poster upthread said something about her dh saying "I know what men are like". I'm so freaking sick of that line. He doens't know what "men" are like. He knows what he was like. He knows what some men are like. That doesn't mean he knows what "men" are like. Women are (justifiably) pissed off when men group us all together and treat as a walking, talking stereotype, but then we turn around and do the same thing with men, and nobody blinks an eye. Some men go around thinking that any woman who shows some skin is asking for "it", but that doesn't mean all men think that way. It's no different from the fact that there are some women who think that any woman who shows some skin is asking for it, but that doesn't mean that all women think that.

I had a good friend in high school. His attitude towards women stunk. It just plain stunk. I loved him to bits, but we went head to head about his attitude more than once. Anyway, he was very, very sexually active, and knew very few girls he hadn't had sex with at some point. He told me once that he knew guys who chased the "slutty" looking girls, because they were more likely to put out, but that those guys were wrong. In his experience, how girls dressed, and how likely they were to have sex, bore no relationship to each other. He's still sexually...promiscuous (hate the word, but don't know what other one to use), and he still says the same thing. He's exactly the kind of man that many men want to protect their daughters from (irrationally, imo, as he's not into rape, and "protecting" one's daughter from consensual sex makes me twitch)...but he's no more - or less - likely to chase a woman who shows a lot of skin, or wears tight clothes, than one who dresses more "modestly". It has nothing to do with the chase. It has a lot to do with his own observations about the lack of relationship between sexual availability and clothing.

I absolutely despise the objectification of women. It turns my stomach. But, making assumptions about women's sexual activity based on their clothing is part of that objectification, imo, not a cure against it.


----------



## NannyMcPhee (Nov 24, 2010)

Working moms dress their girls trashy huh? I never knew.


----------



## NannyMcPhee (Nov 24, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> And apparently we must not only accept - from the sounds of this thread, women seem to actively encourage this kind of objectivisation, and also buy into the idea that there is something wrong with a woman being sexually active.


Yeah. That was the other thing in the article I cringed at, I might not say to my daughter ''go get laid'', but I won't be letting her know that there is anything wrong with her choosing to do that if she desires, and if she comes to me and talks to me about ''getting laid'', well I will talk to her about safety, respect, consent and having fun and I will tell her that no matter how she dresses NO ONE has the right to her body.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> She ends up surrounded by people telling her what to do, what not to do, with *very few people telling her to do what she feels is the right thing to do.*
> 
> There is a really screwed up idea about female sexuality out there. Where a woman "puts out" and a man "get's laid", in other words, she gives something up to him and he gets something from her. So, yeah, maybe we should be telling our daughters to "get laid" if they feel like it's what they want.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> And, yes, there are more positive role models out there, but for every Gloria Steinem there are ten Brittany Spears. And the fact that I can't think of a contemporary positive role model also really sucks.
> 
> I've got another answer for why we dress our daughters like this: it's because it's what is in the stores. Even for little girls (like early elementary school age), that's what is available. This starts early. There are pageants and Disney princesses and mythology galore that tells them that what really counts is being pretty and bagging the husband. At any cost.


My DDs role models come from their real lives -- some of the younger teachers at their school, for example.

I'm not buying into the whole "it's what is in the stores" thing. My DD don't dress like whores, and I don't find shopping to be a huge deal. Sure there are things in stores we don't care for, but there are plenty of things we do.

And I think the author of the article is fine with "bagging a husband.' It simple that she thinks that a young woman should *save* herself for him. It kinda made me want to barf. She wasn't talking about wanting to see girls more concerned with their own dreams and pursuits than with boys, just wanting to see them not looking sexy or getting laid. It's icky.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> So she is saying that the norm of her friends who had sex before marraige (not were promiscious, not were sexually used or abused...) but simply had sex before marraige are "downing in regret"? Seriously, where is she getting this?
> 
> ...


I felt sorry for the author. She's got some issues with her own past that she hasn't resolved. She should do some affirmations like "I am comfortable with my sexuality" or something. May be talk to a counselor.

My kids are right in the age she is speaking about (12 and 14) and what I see just doesn't line up with what she sees. But life and our choices are VERY different. My kids still wear *functional* clothes. They go to an alternative school -- during their day they could spend time in the animal center, the green house, working with pottery, or going for a short hike on the back end of the school property. They don't wear heels and strapless dress. They are surrounded by strong, competent women (and men!) who know how to build things, back pack, etc.
Their relationships with boys are based on common interests and working together.

My DDs do like to look *pretty*. I think that a girl can enjoy being a girl and have fun with a little make up and such without looking like a "whore."

I know that there is an element of society that is all about making little girls look sexy, but I've found it *very* easy to opt out of.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I remember being the kid whose Mom made sure was dressed conservatively. I *hated* it. I think I was a Junior in HS before she finally relented some and allowed me to wear jeans to school. When I had a daughter, I was determined not to put her in that same place. She has a pretty good sense of what is both relatively fashionable, but also looks attractive on her (i.e. even my Mom agrees). Sometimes that's running shorts and a tank top, sometimes it's skinny jeans and a "girly" top. She knows that she doesn't need make-up to be attractive. One thing I can say unequivocally is that she does not dress "slutty".

In the summer? Yep, she's a bikini girl all the way. LOL My Dad says the same thing to me as he said to my then husband years ago - "you let her go out in public like that?" Well... yeah, I do. She has an attractive figure, she's in excellent shape, and frankly - I refuse to allow her to feel ashamed of her body or feel she needs to hide it because someone, somewhere may read her wrong.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> My kids are right in the age she is speaking about (12 and 14) and what I see just doesn't line up with what she sees. But life and our choices are VERY different. My kids still wear *functional* clothes. They go to an alternative school -- during their day they could spend time in the animal center, the green house, working with pottery, or going for a short hike on the back end of the school property. They don't wear heels and strapless dress. They are surrounded by strong, competent women (and men!) who know how to build things, back pack, etc.
> Their relationships with boys are based on common interests and working together.
> ...


LOL, thanks for this post, it really made me go back and put things in perspective. When I say my dd dressed "conservatively" I don't mean dresses, long sleeves, etc.. I mean *functionally* like you are describing. Shoes that protect the feet and are good for running. Pants or shorts or skorts she can be active in. Shirts that cover the waistband of the shorts or pants, are comfy and stay put. Something that really bothered me when my kids were younger was that the boys sweats always had pockets and a drawstring whereas the girls didn't. She ended up in boys sweats a lot of the time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> I remember being the kid whose Mom made sure was dressed conservatively. I *hated* it. I think I was a Junior in HS before she finally relented some and allowed me to wear jeans to school. When I had a daughter, I was determined not to put her in that same place. She has a pretty good sense of what is both relatively fashionable, but also looks attractive on her (i.e. even my Mom agrees). Sometimes that's running shorts and a tank top, sometimes it's skinny jeans and a "girly" top. She knows that she doesn't need make-up to be attractive. One thing I can say unequivocally is that she does not dress "slutty".
> 
> In the summer? Yep, she's a bikini girl all the way. LOL My Dad says the same thing to me as he said to my then husband years ago - "you let her go out in public like that?" Well... yeah, I do. She has an attractive figure, she's in excellent shape, and frankly - I refuse to allow her to feel ashamed of her body or feel she needs to hide it because someone, somewhere may read her wrong.












DP had a long way to go for some of DD's clothes. He has always hated skorts because they are so *short*. His complaint? Why can't she just wear a longer skirt? Well, because a skort allowed her to be active, to hang upside down without worrying about her skirt flying up *but* still feel like she was dressing up. She's been wearing tankinis for the past couple years, but wants to go with a bikini this year and I think it's great. She *should* enjoy the health and appearance of her body.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Something that really bothered me when my kids were younger was that the boys sweats always had pockets and a drawstring whereas the girls didn't.


 Oh don't get me started!!







This seriously irks me about women's clothes in general. My dress pants don't have pockets. My skirts don't have pockets. My jeans pockets are shallower than dh's pockets. Heaven forbid a woman has a set of keys in her pocket that might interrupt the outline of her thigh. Give me pockets!


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> Something that really bothered me when my kids were younger was that the boys sweats always had pockets and a drawstring whereas the girls didn't. She ended up in boys sweats a lot of the time.


My wardrobe was completely shot, so I went out and bought five new pairs of pants at New Year's (amazing sale - got three new shirts, too, and I only paid $145, including tax, for the lot). The one thing I was very, very careful to ensure I was getting was pockets. I've slipped up a few times over the last 5-6 years and grabbed a pair of pants that seemed comfy and not horribly unflattering...only to get home and find they have no pockets. I hate pants with no pockets!!! DH still shakes his head over how stupid women's clothes are.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> DP had a long way to go for some of DD's clothes. He has always hated skorts because they are so *short*. His complaint? Why can't she just wear a longer skirt? Well, because a skort allowed her to be active, to hang upside down without worrying about her skirt flying up *but* still feel like she was dressing up. She's been wearing tankinis for the past couple years, but wants to go with a bikini this year and I think it's great. She *should* enjoy the health and appearance of her body.


She's not allowed to wear anything but a one piece at her Dad's. And he always complains that her attire is inappropriate. (But then, he has had the same issue with our son. In his world, preppy is all there is.)

Women's pants and pockets. I don't carry a purse - my wallet (or cash/card) goes into the back pocket and my keys are hooked on a belt loop. Phone in one front pocket, miscellaneous stuff (change, chapstick, etc) in the other. Good to go. I tend to buy men's jeans - usually Levi's - specifically for the pockets. Also men's sweats and lounge pants. Since we don't have a landline, I always have my cell on me - a real pain w/o pockets.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I'm not a prude, at ALL. But I see her point. You can't control other people's perceptions of you. No matter how professional and intelligent you are, guaranteed if you show up to an interview in your bathing suit, you won't get hired. Likewise, if a guy is looking to get laid, (not a relationship) he is more likely to pick the girl in the 4 inch heels and leather skirt than the one with a pony tail and jeans. That is partly because of media influence perpetuating those stereo types and partly because it's human nature, I think, to go for the most skin and the sexiest attire. That being said, I do know some guys who enjoy the "chase" of trying to get a "good girl."
> 
> ...


I fully agree. At my job, I work with a lot of men. Construction workers mainly. When they see a hot young female teenager, they drool and their comments are disgusting. If they had the opportunity, I don't think the law would put enough fear into them to stay away from her.

I'm sorry, but with what these female teens are wearing, it's no surprise. *I* can't even stop staring at them. Staring at all the skin they're showing. Wondering what in God's name their parents are thinking, allowing them to dress like that.

I think today's parents need to unite and put their feet down. Stop buying the trashy clothes, stop letting our daughters wear it. The fashion industry will get a clue and make more appropriate clothing for our daughters. It's sad. And I hope to see changes in the near future.

A teen boy (friend's kid) told me all the happenings at his high school, complete with sex parties. He showed me photos on his phone of naked teen girls--his class mates sending out their naked photo. It's so sad. Most parents, I think, are oblivious. Their precious child wouldn't do that sort of thing. But they are.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11* 

I fully agree. At my job, I work with a lot of men. Construction workers mainly. When they see a hot young female teenager, they drool and their comments are disgusting. If they had the opportunity, I don't think the law would put enough fear into them to stay away from her.

And what do YOU say to them when they make their comments? Do you tell them how inappropriate THEY are? Or are you focused on the girls? 'Cause, God knows, it MUST be their fault for dressing as they do. Men can't be counted on to control themselves.

Oh, and... Have you ever listened to women commenting about hot guys? I have. It's just as inappropriate.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> I'm sorry, but with what these female teens are wearing, it's no surprise. *I* can't even stop staring at them. Staring at all the skin they're showing. Wondering what in God's name their parents are thinking, allowing them to dress like that.


Ya know... it doesn't have to be "trashy" for guys to stare. I can tell you that my daughter does not dress trashy. But she's an attractive young lady, and no matter what she wears - she gets the looks. Literally, she could be in sweats and a sweatshirt, and get comments. I address the person making the comment - not my kid. I've walked straight up to them and asked them how they'd like someone talking about THEIR daughter that way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> I think today's parents need to unite and put their feet down. Stop buying the trashy clothes, stop letting our daughters wear it. The fashion industry will get a clue and make more appropriate clothing for our daughters. It's sad. And I hope to see changes in the near future.


You're right, Parents SHOULD put down their feet. On top of people who can't control their urges and feel the need to make trashy comments about their daughters.

And please enlighten us - what is "appropriate" clothing in your eyes?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> A teen boy (friend's kid) told me all the happenings at his high school, complete with sex parties. He showed me photos on his phone of naked teen girls--his class mates sending out their naked photo. It's so sad. Most parents, I think, are oblivious. Their precious child wouldn't do that sort of thing. But they are.


And what did you say to that boy? In what way are the boys also responsible? Or is it that they can't help themselves?

Ugh - this post just sends me. And not to a good place.


----------



## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> You can be as chaste as you want and wear clothes that are revealing, but nobody on the street is going to stop you and say, "Hey, you're dressed like a prostitute, but I don't want to judge on appearances, so I was wondering if you really are promiscuous or just dress like you are because you like the clothes." People do portray an image. People do make first impressions. People do make snap judgments. (snip) I don't believe for ONE SECOND that girls of even 12 and 13 do not have a clue about the responses they elicit by the way they dress.


Well, that's almost a benefit, then. Because if someone is going to make assumptions on my level of sexual activity (and judgements about my value as a person based on that assumed level of activity), then I'm happy to know that right off the bat so I can write them off and avoid them. I do agree that preteen and young teen girls are probably not aware of the level of nastiness and judgement that women face regarding their clothing, behavior, and presumed sexual activity (or lack thereof)- that is certainly a conversation that needs to happen with parents. But I think that a 12 year old is old enough to make a decision about that and experience the results for herself, if she's going into it with her eyes open.

I have to say, I find the idea that clothing serves as a marker for level of sexual availability, and the idea that someone assuming you're sexually available when you're not is somehow Horrifying, to be somewhat baffling. I mean...isn't that what "yes" and "no" are for?


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> And what did you say to that boy? In what way are the boys also responsible? Or is it that they can't help themselves?
> 
> Ugh - this post just sends me. And not to a good place.


Yes, I want to hear more about that conversation. I cannot imagine a teen boy showing me naked pictures of girls he knows. What on earth did you say back? Did you talk to him about not forwarding those pictures or showing his friends? The girls are fools, but he is continuing the problem.

Did you talk to him about why he might want to avoid sending pictures of his penis to his friends? This isn't a one-way problem.

Is he going to the sex parties? Did you talk to him about the importance of ALWAYS wearing on condemn for his own protection? Or is this just something he "knows" all about without ever going? Just a rumor he is helping to spread?

Your posts comes off really judgmental of teen girls, yet there is a REALLY good chance the boy you were speaking to about the "sluts" has the exact same behaviors. If he didn't, he wouldn't know what was going on. Do you consider the behaviors OK in a boy, but not a girl? Why is that?

Why do boys assume that it is OK for them to indulge in behaviors and be open with adults about it, all the while passing judgments on the female partners? Are the ways you respond to this boy continuing that absurd message?


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Well, that's almost a benefit, then. Because if someone is going to make assumptions on my level of sexual activity (and judgements about my value as a person based on that assumed level of activity), then I'm happy to know that right off the bat so I can write them off and avoid them. I do agree that preteen and young teen girls are probably not aware of the level of nastiness and judgement that women face regarding their clothing, behavior, and presumed sexual activity (or lack thereof)- that is certainly a conversation that needs to happen with parents. But I think that a 12 year old is old enough to make a decision about that and experience the results for herself, if she's going into it with her eyes open.
> 
> I have to say, I find the idea that clothing serves as a marker for level of sexual availability, and the idea that someone assuming you're sexually available when you're not is somehow Horrifying, to be somewhat baffling. I mean...isn't that what "yes" and "no" are for?


Unfortunately, it is what it is because we live in a society. There is a social consciousness and everyone has their limits on what is acceptable. Would it be okay for a 13 year old girl to walk around topless? Most people, even those that are most liberal in their way of thinking about how people dress, would probably say that it's not. But why not? Probably because it is beyond their level of comfort. This is really what this issue is about. And because of that, some people will make a judgment whether it is accurate or not . Unfortunately, that's just human nature. A person can have a full sleeve of tats, and be astounded at the guy who gets whisker implants and his ears surgically altered to look like a cat's. A person without tats at all could be astounded that someone would alter their body by putting tats up and down their arms. Like, I said, I think it's just a personal level of comfort (probably based on so many things about our lives and upbringing that it's nearly impossible to give a reason to it). I think everyone's feelings are valid and opinions are like assholes... everyone has one. It doesn't make the opinion or assumption right or wrong. It's just normal. People judge. Non-conformity comes in various shades of gray and everyone has their own, very personal, approach to what is their comfort level with conformity/non-conformity. It's not horrifying, it's just human nature.


----------



## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

A couple years ago I went looking for some yoga-style pants for my DD. With limited local shopping options, what I came across in the store horrified me. What young girl needs the word 'JUICY' emblazoned across her butt, for instance? Or the myriad of other totally creepy statements on shirts that are clearly sexually charges- and sold in the preteen/tween department. Turning those down, we decided to order some stuff online instead.

More recently, I took her to get her first camisole/bra mostly to prevent chafing as her breast buds are uncomfortable in the cold or with fabric touching them at times. I was shocked to see a padded/push up bra marketed in the girl's department. I suppose I could have understood the junior's department but girl's? I have no problem with recognizing that a developing girl may need support and coverage, and even some thin padding to eliminate embarrassing pointy bits showing through when she is still learning to make peace with her changing body, but a push up designed to increase visible bust size 2 cups as this was marketed? Not so much.

Maybe the counter to this though isn't so much forbidding our children to wear a skirt more than three inches above her knee or a shirt that is roughly the equivalent of saran wrap in both fit and transparency. Perhaps talking with them about the fact that as they are older they certainly can be astoundingly beautiful and sexy, and they can do that as well in a pair of jeans and a tshirt as they can in a miniskirt and heels.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> I fully agree. At my job, I work with a lot of men. Construction workers mainly. When they see a hot young female teenager, they drool and their comments are disgusting. If they had the opportunity, I don't think the law would put enough fear into them to stay away from her.
> 
> I'm sorry, but with what these female teens are wearing, it's no surprise.


I didn't have skin hanging out as a teen, and construction workers said disgusting things to me, too. Heck, my cousin dressed very modestly, and most guys couldn't have told you what colour eyes she had, because they were too busy staring at her boobs, and construction workers said disgusting things to her, too. That's not about the clothes. That's about a really bad attitude towards females.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I didn't have skin hanging out as a teen, and construction workers said disgusting things to me, too. Heck, my cousin dressed very modestly, and most guys couldn't have told you what colour eyes she had, because they were too busy staring at her boobs, and construction workers said disgusting things to her, too. That's not about the clothes. That's about a really bad attitude towards females.


Exactly.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I didn't have skin hanging out as a teen, and construction workers said disgusting things to me, too. Heck, my cousin dressed very modestly, and most guys couldn't have told you what colour eyes she had, because they were too busy staring at her boobs, and construction workers said disgusting things to her, too. That's not about the clothes. That's about a really bad attitude towards females.


No offense, but just as people here are stereotyping the way people dress, you are stereotyping construction workers (and getting confirmation that your stereotype is accurate). It kind of proves the point that people have pre-conceived ideas and judge based on those ideas. So, construction workers are crass enough to state what they think, but a nice business man in a suit has enough tact to think it, but keep it to himself? What difference does it make? It's still about a social perception.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> No offense, but just as people here are stereotyping the way people dress, you are stereotyping construction workers (and getting confirmation that your stereotype is accurate). It kind of proves the point that people have pre-conceived ideas and judge based on those ideas. So, construction workers are crass enough to state what they think, but a nice business man in a suit has enough tact to think it, but keep it to himself? What difference does it make? It's still about a social perception.


Where did I ever say any of that? I said that construction workers said disgusting things to me. They did. Guys in suits didn't - at least, not as much and not as blatantly. They had a culture that supported saying nasty things about women when the women weren't around, but didn't support yelling them out publicly. That doesn't mean I don't think businessmen can (and often do) have negative attitudes about women. The poster I was responding to mentioned that she worked with construction workers who said disgusting things about young girls with skin hanging out. I wasn't addressing hte construction workers part of it - I was addressing the "young girls with skin hanging out" part of it. The skin isn't the issue. The attitude towards female sexuality is the issue.

And, yeah - there is (or was - I haven't walked past a construction site in a long time) a really dehumanizing element to the way those guys belted out their nastiness in public. It was quite specific to the contruction culture. That doesn't mean they were all like that. I knew lots of them who weren't. It also doesn't mean there's isn't just as much of a dehumanizing element to the type of guy who'll publicly act as though they see women as equal, while privately talking about us as animated sex toys.

And, to be perfectly clear...I'm not talking about men. I'm talking about a particular attitude towards female sexuality. I see it from some women, too.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Ya know... it doesn't have to be "trashy" for guys to stare. I can tell you that my daughter does not dress trashy. But she's an attractive young lady, and no matter what she wears - she gets the looks. Literally, she could be in sweats and a sweatshirt, and get comments. I address the person making the comment - not my kid. I've walked straight up to them and asked them how they'd like someone talking about THEIR daughter that way.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Yes, I want to hear more about that conversation. I cannot imagine a teen boy showing me naked pictures of girls he knows. What on earth did you say back? Did you talk to him about not forwarding those pictures or showing his friends? The girls are fools, but he is continuing the problem.
> 
> ...


Yes and yes!

My daughter is not responsible for how men treat her. Just as my son will be entirely responsible for how he treats women.

ButterflyBaby, it's no ones fault but your own if you can't stop staring. Just as it's no ones fault but the construction worker, business man, or king of the whole freakin' world if he can't stop himself from staring at, or making crude comments to, or sexually assaulting a woman. She could be walking down the street naked and that still doesn't give anyone the right to objectify her and then blame her for it!

And yeah, if a friends son decided to show me a picture a girl sent him of her naked, I would have a talk with him about respecting privacy and that her giving him that picture doesn't mean he should be showing or sending it to anyone else and that doing so would be a violation of her trust.


----------



## jesshrehor (Nov 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Yes and yes!
> 
> ...


Not only a violation of her trust, but if she's under 18 and engaged in a sexual activity, that's possession of child pornography, which is a felony. An if he sends it to anyone he's distributing child pornography, which is another felony.


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Yes and yes!
> 
> ...


I would certainly say that a women walking naked in public bears some responsibility for negative perceptions towards her. Men are visual creatures and most will get aroused at the sight of a scantily clad women. From what I understand this is not a reasoning process but an involuntary one. This does not take responsibility away from the resulting disgusting actions that some men will CHOOSE to engage in based on their arousal but to take all responsibility from a woman for how she is perceived is strange to me.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I would certainly say that a women walking naked in public bears some responsibility for negative perceptions towards her. Men are visual creatures and most will get aroused at the sight of a scantily clad women. From what I understand this is not a reasoning process but an involuntary one. This does not take responsibility away from the resulting disgusting actions that some men will CHOOSE to engage in based on their arousal but to take all responsibility from a woman for how she is perceived is strange to me.


But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person.

There are plenty of men in this world that can be aroused by a woman who is scantily clad or naked without treating her as a sex object. They are capable of saying to themselves "hey, yeah she is hot... But you know this is neither the time nor the place to ignore the fact that she is a person and I should treat her as such." Men who can work with a woman who is wearing a low cut top without staring at her breasts, who can pass a woman on the street that is dressed "skanky" and not say "nice ass, toots!". Men who know that just because a woman is walking through the park completely naked, or just topless, or wearing a string bikini, and still remember that she is someones daughter, and some ones best friend, possibly someones significant other, mother, sister, aunt, that she has a job, and life, and personality. That she is more than just a body that causes a biological reaction, and more than just a potential piece of tail.

To put any responsibility on the woman for how she is perceived is not fair to her, and unfortunately gets used often to blame the victim. So long as we put the burden of men's actions on womens shoulders, we won't be able to get rid of the "she had it coming" mind set.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Great article in the Wall Street Journal asks why do we let our girls dress that way?
> 
> ...


Well I'm not part of that "we" in the article. But then my daughter, who is 21, has never been a fashion maven, never wanted to read any of the girls magazines growing up and was the book worm homeschooled kid that likes to video game. She still dresses very modest by modern standards, and while she likes nail polish and hair dye she isn't into makeup. Yes there are less choices when you are looking for longer skirts and tops that actually have sleeves but it's out there. She gets her clothes at regular stores, you just have to weed through all the stuff you aren't interested in like the pants cut so low you'd need a Brazilian to wear them.


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person.
> 
> ...


Ok, I am thinking this through but I am wondering if your ideal only works in a perfect society where people no longer commit evil actions. In this culture. most women know that dressing skimpily will illicit a certain amount of male attention, with the probability of some of it being vulgar and crude. Of course the negative attention is wrong- everyone deserves dignity and respect regardless of the way they are dressed, but in this world, that is not realistic.

So while on one hand I don't believe a woman should hold any responsibility for evil actions brought against her due to lack of clothing, on the other hand there has to be a point at which a women takes responsibility for the way she is perceived. I get very angry when a woman is blamed for being raped. At the same time, a women who displays an impressive amount of cleavage at the office certainly bears some responsibility when a man has trouble looking away.

It is on a continuum imo, but maybe by making it situational it leaves too much room for men to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. Maybe it only works to absolve women of all responsibility for negative perceptions or attention drawn to them while scantily clad, but by saying this, it makes women out to be dummys with no concept of the way this world (wrongly) works.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> At the same time, a women who displays an impressive amount of cleavage at the office certainly bears some responsibility when a man has trouble looking away.


Why?


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> Ok, I am thinking this through but I am wondering if your ideal only works in a perfect society where people no longer commit evil actions. In this culture. most women know that dressing skimpily will illicit a certain amount of male attention, with the probability of some of it being vulgar and crude. Of course the negative attention is wrong- everyone deserves dignity and respect regardless of the way they are dressed, but in this world, that is not realistic.
> 
> ...


In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation. In the real world some people are UAVs, you have to teach your kids that. You also have to teach your kids that some people will attempt to explain away the UAVs actions by claiming the other person had to know what their clothes/opinion/existence would cause to happen. In the real world we are capable of teaching a girl that her body is her own, that she can dress how she wants, that some people may be ignorant enough to assume it means something about her personal life, and that she is in no way responsible for a mans inability to control himself.

The problem isn't that woman dress provocatively. It is that boys are not taught that they have no right to make rude comments, or act in a way that is inappropriate. A woman has no responsibly for what another person does. Ever. Period. End. Of. Story! You make your own choices, he makes his own choices, and you cannot be blamed for his choices.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Ugh, this whole thread is bringing me back to my high school (freshman year even) days when I was very very well endowed and couldn't even wear a v- neck tee without guys being total jerks about it. I would get it from both sides, girls mocking me for my boobs hanging out and guys making horribly inappropriate comments and just being pigs in general. I spent the better part of my junior and senior year in big sweatshirts to hide my figure as much as I could.

ITA with all the people who said there is nothing wrong with a young woman wanting dress in a way that makes her feel good, be it in a short skirt or a tunic but I just think it is so unrealistic to try and act as though how we dress doesn't send a blaring signal about who we are to people...How we dress is pretty much one of the biggest ways for people to get an instant impression of what we are like....hence the tee shirts with all the little quips on them...I dress in a way that makes people think I am a hippie...thats how I dress, why would I be surprised people draw that conclusion about me, it's true, otherwise why would I dress that way? The problem is that it is really hard to separate the girl who is scantily clad from our collective thoughts of what that girl must be like...Maybe she is sexually promiscuous of her own choosing and maybe she wants to be a virgin until marriage (I don't care either way) but I can guess most people wouldn't be thinking the latter when they first the girl.

I worked at a liquor store when I was 19 and the comments I got from grown men were absolutely disgusting. I had one man in particular ask me to "do a spin" so he could the full package







...that was just one of the comments I would get, and this just wearing a tee shirt and jeans that were snug because I don't like baggy droopy pants...Why is it ok for grown men to talk to young girls this way...So gross

DD is too young for me to worry about this but it has got me thinking...I guess I am one of those weird people who has an issue with babies in 2 piece bathing suits anyway...My first thought is always that must be really uncomfortable for baby, 2nd thought gee it would be a lot easier to protect baby's skin with more of a bathing suit or rash guard and 3rd I feel like why the hell are they even making bikinis for babies anyway?? I guess that makes me a terrible judgmental person









ok rambling and maybe just disjointed, my brain just leaked onto the screen a little bit...


----------



## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Wow, MusicianDad as usual your posts give me a lot to think about!

While I agree with you in theory I would venture to say that you are a rarity in the world. Not many men have that outlook. I *wish* more men could think like this because it would be great to send my daughter out to play in short shorts and a bathing suit top and not worry that some man is going to think nasty thoughts about her, but.....I know that what I want and how it IS are two different things.

And having been married to someone who turned out to be a perverted person who likes to look at and fantasize (and prey on) young girls I know intellectually that covering her from head to toe is not going to stop someone from thinking what they want. However, I don't want to make it any easier. I won't go into details because it's not necessary or appropriate but I'm sure you get my drift.

At the same time why should I or my daughter be punished for someone else's nastiness? I have a short skirt (the first I've ever owned) and I wear it to do housework in because I haven't gt the guts yet to wear it out. And frankly if I did get the guts up to wear it out I would get whistles and catcalls all day long. I don't want to deal with it so I don't wear it. I hate that because I like how I look in it. But it's reality. I can't control other people,only myself.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> In this culture. most women know that dressing skimpily will illicit a certain amount of male attention, with the probability of some of it being vulgar and crude.


But different people have different ideas about what is "skimpy." In some cultures, anything less than a burka is skimpy, and yet women are still raped.

For years, both my DDs swam competitively, and my extended family, who are fundamentalist Christians, were bothered by the fact that my DDs ran around in swim suits and were around boys wearing swim suits. They believe that there's no way for boys to see girls in swim suits with out being "defrauded." (These were one-piece racing suits, designed for speed, not looks)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Ugh, this whole thread is bringing me back to my high school (freshman year even) days when I was very very well endowed and couldn't even wear a v- neck tee without guys being total jerks about it. I would get it from both sides, girls mocking me for my boobs hanging out and guys making horribly inappropriate comments and just being pigs in general. I spent the better part of my junior and senior year in big sweatshirts to hide my figure as much as I could.
> 
> ..










My 14 year old is a DDD. She's in 8th grade and still growing. She does her best to dress modestly, usually wears tank tops under her blouses to keep the cleavage to a minimum, but there's really no way to hide that she's a young, beautiful woman with incredable curves. She's a blond bombshell.

Thankfully, she goes to a small private school where behavior is carefully monitored by adults, but because short of putting her in a burka, there's no way to hide her figure.

(And sadly, she quit competitive swimming when she got boobs. It was such a great sport for her and she was so good at it, but she was just so uncomfortable in her body. )


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

People are really weird sometimes about what they think is trashy looking. I buy my daughter skinny jeans because she's tall and skinny and they're long enough and don't fall off her. They don't look trashy on her. I'm thankful they exist. And someone one time posted that sequins are in and of themselves trashy. So if I buy a modestly cut top with sequins on it, my dd is dressed in a trashy way? I don't buy it.

Padded bras are made for pubescent girls because they mask the breast buds more and some girls feel they are more modest. I know I did at that age. And two-piece suits are easier to get on and off if you have to go to the bathroom.

I really think we project our own assumptions on some clothes.

Also, most kids, male and female, are sexually active in their college years. Regardless of how they dress.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> But different people have different ideas about what is "skimpy." In some cultures, anything less than a burka is skimpy, and yet women are still raped.
> 
> ...


*At least your daughter has a mama who is aware of the issues that being curvy with large breasts can bring







She can look to you for support because something about boobs just drives those adolescent boys wild. DH is a major south park fan and they had a whole episode where all the boys got obsessed with the first girl to get boobs, they were running around like cave men shouting "ATTA" (code for boobs) and drawing pictures of boobs on everything...*

*It's too bad she quit swimming but having been there, I can totally understand why she did, at some point it is impossible to control the obnoxious reaction of others.*


----------



## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

I don't think skinny jeans are trashy. They aren't much different from the jeans I wore in high school though we had different names for them. I just hate that girls have so little options. My own DD wears skinny jeans. She's the one body type that looks right in those jeans. She can wear low-rise pants without her butt hanging out. She's small chested and so fitted tops, lower neck-line shirts don't come across as "trashy." She has friends who are just built differently but they are limited to the same style and it doesn't flatter them or makes them look like they are intentionally showing their underwear or trying to have cleavage. It looks like the trends are starting to change a little though. I tease my DD that "grandma" clothes are coming back in style. Lots of old fashioned looking, flowing tops.... much more forgiving and flattering to non-beanpoles.

I agree that two pieces are the way to go with swimsuits. We live by the beach and nothing worse than having to get naked in a beach bathroom. Even when my DD was little, we did the tankini thing because it was easier to handle diaper changes and "I have to go NOW" situations.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> People are really weird sometimes about what they think is trashy looking. I buy my daughter skinny jeans because she's tall and skinny and they're long enough and don't fall off her. They don't look trashy on her. I'm thankful they exist. And someone one time posted that sequins are in and of themselves trashy. So if I buy a modestly cut top with sequins on it, my dd is dressed in a trashy way? I don't buy it.
> 
> ...


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

This has been a very interesting read.

I note that no one at any time, has discussed how teen boys dress. What would a teen boy have to wear to be looked at as slutty? Or looking to get laid? Or having someone tell them they are responsible for the remarks people make about them? Hell, what would any man have to wear to get labeled as any of these things? I honestly couldn't think of anything.

I guess that's my gauge for when an article is coming from a wildly sexist point of view, when the resulting article sounds ridiculous when you put in male instead of female.

And yet, walking around town, I have seen more of many teen boys than I have of girls. If your pants are below your butt and your boxers are see through, you are effectively walking around with your backside out. I see this all the time and no one bats an eye or ever tells the boy they are inviting comments, leers or even assault by dressing this way. I recently say a boy walking down the street with belt and fly open, hands in pockets clearly holding his pants up, but in no way trying to fix the situation. He was with friends as well, and none of them seemed concerned.

The problem here is not how we let our daughters dress, but how we teach everyone to react to that.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Adina, great point. I'll just say that people do figuratively bat their eyes plenty at guys sagging their pants.


----------



## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

We're not talking about boys because that's not what the article was about. Certainly, we can talk boys if you want. Boys that dress too nice or wear clothes that are too fitted are often viewed as gay. This makes dressing this way far less appealing to boys than to girls who are simultaneously berated and praised for looking sexy.

Personally, I've told my nephew to pull their pants up many times. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a kid whose rear is hanging out. Gross. You want to look like that with your buddies, whatever. If you want to interview for a job, meet a girl's father for the first time, ect... get a belt.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AdinaL*
> 
> This has been a very interesting read.
> 
> ...


----------



## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

I teach high school and the boys with pants sagging is a huge issue; but you are right, no one sees that as trasy or sexy- they see it in a different way. They are considered "ghetto" or "thugs."

I have two daughters with very different builds. My yonger daughter has no rear at all. She loves skinny jeans and jeggings. My older daughter, who is 13 and has the body of an 18 year old, has a rear to rival Beyonce. She refuses to wear skinny jeans because SHE feels uncomfortable. I have never said anything to her. However, I dress fairly conservatively 99% of the time myself. Teaching high school, I have to be very careful with what I wear. I have a large chest and certain clothes just will not do around teen boys.

I agree that you can find non-slutty clothes, you just have to look for them.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.

Girls are slutty if they have sex, or dress provocatively, or flirt too much, or are more developed than their peers.

Gay males are just sluts.

North American culture is really screwed up is theirs views of sex...


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> Wow, MusicianDad as usual your posts give me a lot to think about!
> 
> ...


Not a total rarity, some men have been taught to, at the very least, keep their opinions of a woman to themselves with they are inappropriate. Unfortunately the "boys will be boys" mind set is still far to prevalent and many people are raising their kids, male and female, to think that men are incapable of self control.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this.

I keep seeing references in this thread to the concept "that if you look hard enough, you'll find decent clothing." This is perplexing to me. I'm a working mom, FWIW (saw working moms referenced upstream) and I do 90% of my shopping on-line (to save time and I can do it 3 in the morning if I want). I've never run into a problem of not finding what I consider appropriate clothing. I click and buy. It is all right there at my happy fingertips. Of course there are certain sites that I visit frequently (Lands End and Zappos are among them), but I really do think there is a huge variety out there (and I'm pretty frugal in the way that I shop in that I get a few good pieces that will last all winter, all summer, etc.).


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whatsnextmom*
> 
> We're not talking about boys because that's not what the article was about. Certainly, we can talk boys if you want. Boys that dress too nice or wear clothes that are too fitted are often viewed as gay. This makes dressing this way far less appealing to boys than to girls who are simultaneously berated and praised for looking sexy.
> 
> Personally, I've told my nephew to pull their pants up many times. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a kid whose rear is hanging out. Gross. You want to look like that with your buddies, whatever. If you want to interview for a job, meet a girl's father for the first time, ect... get a belt.


Yes, I understand that is what the article is talking about. What I was saying is that it is notable that no one *ever* brings up boys and how they dress in this context. You would be hard pressed to find and article like this targeted at boys and asking why we let them dress this way. Heck, not hard pressed, I would say it is impossible.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.
> 
> ...


This. Exactly.

smh


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> I agree with all of this.
> 
> I keep seeing references in this thread to the concept "that if you look hard enough, you'll find decent clothing." This is perplexing to me. I'm a working mom, FWIW (saw working moms referenced upstream) and I do 90% of my shopping on-line (to save time and I can do it 3 in the morning if I want). I've never run into a problem of not finding what I consider appropriate clothing. I click and buy. It is all right there at my happy fingertips. Of course there are certain sites that I visit frequently (Lands End and Zappos are among them), but I really do think there is a huge variety out there (and I'm pretty frugal in the way that I shop in that I get a few good pieces that will last all winter, all summer, etc.).


That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


That's true. Another factor would probably be location too. I live in a densely populated place with a lot of commercial competition. In my parents' town, however, they have a mall, a couple of box stores and that's about it. I was surprised, though, when I went into Cosco (which is one of those big box stores, at least here on the east coast) once with my in-laws down there and they had a surprisingly good selection of stuff for young girls.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mar123*
> 
> I teach high school and the boys with pants sagging is a huge issue; but you are right, no one sees that as trasy or sexy- they see it in a different way. They are considered "ghetto" or "thugs."
> 
> ...


I would be pretty upset if I found out that any of my daughters' teachers use the word slutty.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> While I agree with you in theory I would venture to say that you are a rarity in the world. Not many men have that outlook. I *wish* more men could think like this because it would be great to send my daughter out to play in short shorts and a bathing suit top and not worry that some man is going to think nasty thoughts about her, but.....I know that what I want and how it IS are two different things.


This is one of the saddest posts I have read on MDC in a long time. I am not being intentionally offensive towards you, waiting2bemommy, but seriously--- you NEED to hang out with a better class of men. This is what MusicianDad originally said:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person.
> 
> There are plenty of men in this world that can be aroused by a woman who is scantily clad or naked without treating her as a sex object. They are capable of saying to themselves "hey, yeah she is hot... But you know this is neither the time nor the place to ignore the fact that she is a person and I should treat her as such." Men who can work with a woman who is wearing a low cut top without staring at her breasts, who can pass a woman on the street that is dressed "skanky" and not say "nice ass, toots!". Men who know that just because a woman is walking through the park completely naked, or just topless, or wearing a string bikini, and still remember that she is someones daughter, and some ones best friend, possibly someones significant other, mother, sister, aunt, that she has a job, and life, and personality. That she is more than just a body that causes a biological reaction, and more than just a potential piece of tail.


Honestly, I don't commend MusicianDad for feeling this way. Why? Because it is NOT special behavior. It is acting like a human being. My DP certainly follows this "code." As do all of my brothers (I have six of them, lol, so that is saying something). And I am certainly raising my children to believe this. Someone who is unable to "resist" degrading women because of how they dress is not "normal", IMO & IME. If no one on this board allows their son's to behave this way, it will become the norm (I know it certainly already is in my neck of the woods--- I can't imagine any of my male friends (well, other than in a jokey way, and honestly more likely to catcall to men), dad's of my kids' friends, neighbors, etc assaulting women in this way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AdinaL*
> 
> The problem here is not how we let our daughters dress, but how we teach everyone to react to that.












If we can expect preschoolers to not steal all the cookies and call names when provoked, we (as a society) can certainly expect adult men to see a little flesh without loosing all trapings of civility.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Adina, great point. I'll just say that people do figuratively bat their eyes plenty at guys sagging their pants.


Bat their eyes? Or roll their eyes? Because the response I see towards pants sagging is usually more of a, "Oh, kids today!" rather than taking it as a sexual overture.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.
> 
> ...


Of course, because if a teen boy is gay, he's already half way to being a woman and everyone knows that the default state of women is slut.

It makes me physicallly ill that that type of thinking does form the basis of many people's feelings. Just ick.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> Honestly, I don't commend MusicianDad for feeling this way. Why? Because it is NOT special behavior. It is acting like a human being. My DP certainly follows this "code." As do all of my brothers (I have six of them, lol, so that is saying something). And I am certainly raising my children to believe this. Someone who is unable to "resist" degrading women because of how they dress is not "normal", IMO & IME. If no one on this board allows their son's to behave this way, it will become the norm (I know it certainly already is in my neck of the woods--- I can't imagine any of my male friends (well, other than in a jokey way, and honestly more likely to catcall to men), dad's of my kids' friends, neighbors, etc assaulting women in this way.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> WHy?


At the beach a lot of cleavage blends right in and is not that noticeable. At the office, it is probably not the norm to bare a lot of cleavage so I am sure that it would be hard for a heterosexual man to look away, heck for anybody, because it is abnormal in that setting. It is distracting and shows a certain amount of disrespect for everyone in that environment. I just don't understand how a woman can be absolved of all responsibility for the effect she has on others when she obviously dresses in a revealing way. Of course "revealing" is different for everyone but does that mean there is never a line that should not be crossed "It is my body so I can dress like I want and everyone just had to deal with it" is arrogant and extreme to me. I would say the same about a man wearing spandex pants to the office.

Again I am not saying that a woman deserves mistreatment when she is dressed a certain way, just that in this culture she should at least be aware of the likelihood of negative attention and even expect it might happen (although it is wrong) when that imaginary line in a particular environment is crossed.

I'm wondering is modesty faux-pas now in favor of "girl power"?


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> I would be pretty upset if I found out that any of my daughters' teachers use the word slutty.


I don't understand what you're saying here.

I would be upset if my child's teacher called another person 'slutty' in the presence of kids. I think that's crude, potentially hurtful language that has no place in a school setting. It's unprofessional.

But I don't see how it's any of my business or anyone else's business if a teacher uses the word 'slutty' outside of work.

Am I misunderstanding your point?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

My point is that I do not want a person that has the mindset that certain clothes or certain people are slutty to be teaching my daughters.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> At the beach a lot of cleavage blends right in and is not that noticeable. At the office, it is probably not the norm to bare a lot of cleavage so I am sure that it would be hard for a heterosexual man to look away, heck for anybody, because it is abnormal in that setting. It is distracting and shows a certain amount of disrespect for everyone in that environment. I just don't understand how a woman can be absolved of all responsibility for the effect she has on others when she obviously dresses in a revealing way. Of course "revealing" is different for everyone but does that mean there is never a line that should not be crossed "It is my body so I can dress like I want and everyone just had to deal with it" is arrogant and extreme to me. I would say the same about a man wearing spandex pants to the office.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you Storm Bride!! I love your perspective on so much...

I feel this, as I said before, I am very well endowed and it is so hard for me to find something to wear, especially during the summer, that doesn't produce quite a bit of cleavage just because I have big boobs and wear very supportive bras that make them look bigger or squished together or whatever.

Why do I have to "bear the responsibility" for having naturally large breasts. Should I just simply wear a sweater all the time because men shouldn't have to be expected to control themselves? I get that someone might look at my boobs when I am wearing a tank top or even just a regular shirt but this is the kind of attitude (not yours storm bride) that kept me in sweatshirts all through high school even when it was warm...

Men aren't responsible for their checking women's breasts out or staring at them...It's those pesky women who need to understand men aren't accountable for their behavior.


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## tjlucca (Jun 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Lol! Good point. I think she's conflicted. I'll have to go back and read it some time when I'm a bit more focused.


I think she is conflicted too. It's a good piece depicting what a lot of parents may be feeling on this issue.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I'm also finding shopping for a girl for the first time that literally from birth on, EVERYTHING is princess princess princess. I mean, I don't have a vendetta against disney, but I have not seen even ONE shirt displaying, say, a race car, or tools, or even sports (other than cheering pom poms)
> 
> According to my friend it goes straight from disney princess to hannah montana around 2nd grade and then to straight adult styles by middle school.


Your friend is exaggerating. My DD, now 9, has never owned a disney princess or hannah montana artical of clothing, and trust me, she always had a ton of clothes (only granddaughter on my side of the family). Most of the kids in her class do not wear character clothing--they wear jeans, tees, leggings, sweaters, skirts, dresses, ect, in many patterns and colors. There are girl and unisex racing shirts. I've seen lacrosse, softball, soccer, tennis, rockclimbing, aviation shirts marketed towards girls--half of that in ye old box store of Target. At 9, my daughter is in size 14/16 clothing (just about to move into junior sizes--she is tall tall tall but skinny). There's plenty of appropriate clothing out there.

Can you find adult styles? Sure. There's smartass shirts out there too, marketed to both genders. But to say that's all that's out there is ridiculous. I think this is worth discussing as a society, but at some people we have to get over the hyperbole, KWIM?


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person.
> 
> ...


Excellent post


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *whatsnextmom*
> 
> The fashion industry is really being let off the hook in this article. Have any of you done any shopping for formal dresses these days? OMG, it's SOOOOOOO hard to find a dress that is at least mid-thigh and has some sort of straps... even spaghetti.


Not a problem if your daughter is plus sized. A lot of that clothing is frumpy. But I guess that is another topic...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I wasn't asking "why" with respect to whether or not cleavage is appropriate at work. I've actually worked in many offices where at least some cleavage was quite common - I'm not sure how one would define an "impressive amount", though. However, I was asking "why?" with respect to this precise sentiment:
> 
> ...


Yes to all that.

And it's not "girl power" to hold men to the same standards as women, it's equality. Outside of very specific situations, women are taught that it is inappropriate for them to behave in certain ways towards the opposite sex. I'm not sure how to word this effectively, but I'll try. Different expectations for the different genders often fall in favour of the man. Women are expected to sit down and shut up, men are expected to speak their minds. Women are expect to save themselves for marriage regardless of their personal views, men are expected to follow their personal views on the matter. Et cetera, and all that. In this case, where women are expected to be mature individuals and not behave inappropriately to members of the opposite sex, were as men are expected to ogle, catcall, and make inappropriate comments to a provocatively dressed woman, it is different. Women are the ones who benefit from this one because they are the ones being told they are slaves to their baser instinct. Men are the ones taught that they are nothing more then animals in that respect and shouldn't worry about acting like animals if they have the urge too. Because of that, the boys who will eventually become men, learn that they are not responsible for their actions, the woman is, and they have nothing to apologize for when they act like jerks. We have two choices to get rid of this inequality. We can either allow women to behave the same way as men, or require men to behave the same way as women. I personally vote for the latter, because that one is just more fitting to a productive society. (Note: The men v. woman thing is generally speaking, we all know people of both genders who fit better with the other in how they behave.)


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

And not one woman I've ever asked about the subject has said that she wishes she'd "experimented" more.

Wow, really? I wish I had experimented more!

Good posts, MD!


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## shotmama (Sep 6, 2010)

well, i was a late bloomer (seriously didn't get my d-cups, from then barely there breasts, until AFTER i turned 20) and i had very conservative parents, but attended a very open minded and highly academic highschool. i never had a butt (or maybe i still don't!) and had a very chubby, baby-like face despite a smaller body frame.

so what did i do? i dressed as crazy and weird as much as i could. wore the weirdest combinations, sometimes the brightest colors, along with the craziest hair. people i run into from those times always say they liked how i went to school with a lamp shade over my head for a week -- they thought it was hilarious.

do i do that stuff now? NOT AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO but if i hadn't had that freedom (as secret as it was to my folks most of the time) i think i would have gone crazy.

as long as my kid (and my future kids) learn how to treat others with respect and take criticism with grace, i'll let them dress however they darn well please (assuming they are not gonna be breaking the bank with it, hehe)


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.


Whoever gave it to you was right on the mark!


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.


DDDDC? I looked up old forums which purported to explain this, but I still don't get it.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> DDDDC? I looked up old forums which purported to explain this, but I still don't get it.


Here is a full explanation:

http://www.mothering.com/community/wiki/ddddcs-dirty-deeds-done-dirt-cheap

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/74138/who-what-is-ddddc


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Yes, you so deserve it...and your kids are lucky to have you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karne*
> 
> Whoever gave it to you was right on the mark!


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> Here is a full explanation:
> 
> ...


Ooooh.Cute!


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

To say that I am infuritated right now would be an understatement. In what sick and twisted world can a decent human being blame a little girl for something as horrible as this? She wore make up and dressed like a 20-year old...so that means she deserved what happened to her? WARNING: LINK MAY BE TRIGGERING http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/16/republican-lawmaker-blames-11-year-old-victim-of-alleged-gang-rape/#


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

This is all too common. There was a story of a teenager near where I live who was drugged and gang-raped at a party. Someone filmed it on their phone & posted it to Facebook. Despite police & medical evidence that the girl was truly the victim here, she had to leave school because she was getting such a hard time from her fellow students, who blamed her for the attack -- saying that it wasn't really an attack, but consensual. Then there were the obligatory statements by adults who said things along the lines of "what does she expect? She was a party. Drinking alcohol." The idea that the female must be hyper-aware and responsible for what happens TO her is ludicrous, especially when compared to the lack of responsibility accorded to the men who, obviously, were driven crazy by the very presence of a female in their midst. The fact that rape happens even in countries where women are literally covered head to toe, never drink alcohol & rarely even mix with unrelated males is clearly just a weird anomaly.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


I don't usually buy online either, but I haven't had a problem finding clothes I like (basic, solid pieces without slogans) for my DD (who is admittedly very young) or my nieces who are 7 and 11. Target and Old Navy are my go-to places for inexpensive, basic kids' clothes, and sure there are the slogan tees and other clothes I wouldn't choose, but there's also plenty of regular old clothes in the styles that kids have been wearing for decades.

If someone likes slogan tees or "skimpy" clothing and buys that for her kids, fine, but if a person dresses her kids that way and then proclaims that she doesn't like it but can't find anything else, that'd be disingenuous. (ETA: Of course, as kids get older they have more and more control over what they wear -- I know I hid outfits in my backpack sometimes as a teen! But I'm talking about what parents buy for their kids, and the parents who claim that there's literally nothing except what they deem to be objectionable clothing sold in stores.)


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Yeah it INFURIATES me to no end!! Blame the victim. It makes me want to throw up. I have an eleven-year-old dd and glad we have a good relationship and I hate that I have to tell her something as common-sense as "even if a girl is wearing underwear at midnight and walking down the alley she doesn't deserve to be raped."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> This is all too common. There was a story of a teenager near where I live who was drugged and gang-raped at a party. Someone filmed it on their phone & posted it to Facebook. Despite police & medical evidence that the girl was truly the victim here, she had to leave school because she was getting such a hard time from her fellow students, who blamed her for the attack -- saying that it wasn't really an attack, but consensual. Then there were the obligatory statements by adults who said things along the lines of "what does she expect? She was a party. Drinking alcohol." The idea that the female must be hyper-aware and responsible for what happens TO her is ludicrous, especially when compared to the lack of responsibility accorded to the men who, obviously, were driven crazy by the very presence of a female in their midst. The fact that rape happens even in countries where women are literally covered head to toe, never drink alcohol & rarely even mix with unrelated males is clearly just a weird anomaly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I don't usually buy online either, but I haven't had a problem finding clothes I like (basic, solid pieces without slogans) for my DD (who is admittedly very young) or my nieces who are 7 and 11. Target and Old Navy are my go-to places for inexpensive, basic kids' clothes, and sure there are the slogan tees and other clothes I wouldn't choose, but there's also plenty of regular old clothes in the styles that kids have been wearing for decades.
> 
> ...


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm*
> 
> Yeah it INFURIATES me to no end!! Blame the victim. It makes me want to throw up. I have an eleven-year-old dd and glad we have a good relationship and I hate that I have to tell her something as common-sense as "even if a girl is wearing underwear at midnight and walking down the alley she doesn't deserve to be raped."


There was a blog I read a while ago (sorry, couldn't find it again) by a mom who described her conversation with her 11 year old son. Her son told her he felt left out because he didn't have a girlfriend and had never kissed a girl. She was a little surprised, given his age, but decided to run with it by asking him open-ended questions. It came out during the conversation that there was a girl in his class who had kissed three (ack!) boys, and he thought that was a bit much, and even her sister was embarrassed by it. She asked him a series of questions: did the boys not want to kiss her? No, they were into it. Did the boys kiss too much too, seeing as they were consensually involved? No, the boys' behaviour was fine, it was just the girl. She talked him around to see the error of his logic and his double standard...but by the age of 11, he had absorbed the attitude that the girls are held to a different standard than the boys. Thankfully, this kid has a good mom to explain it to him, but what about the ones that don't?


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> There was a blog I read a while ago (sorry, couldn't find it again) by a mom who described her conversation with her 11 year old son....


http://magazine.goodvibes.com/2011/03/21/slut-shaming-on-the-playground/


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

That's awesome, Prothyraia. I knew one of you mamas would have the link!


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Personally, I'm less concerned about what my teenage daughters wear and more concerned about what they are doing. I'll probably raise my children of both sexes similarly to how I was raised... I will teach them to respect themselves and know themselves, to know they don't have to do anything just because someone wants them to and to have the confidence to stand up against peer pressure. I won't buy certain things even if they want it but if they want to buy it themselves, so be it. It is their money and their body and if I've done my job to instill a sense of confidence and self respect then the clothes they choose to wear will be based on their own comfort (even if their comfort includes fitting in with how others look) rather than a reflection of the things they do.

If the worst thing my teenage daughter does is wear clothing I find a bit too revealing then I'll consider our journey through the teen years a relative success.

At any rate, I did NOT dress immodestly. I covered myself up pretty well.. in fact, I went through a phase where I wanted as many layers as possible... a tank top over a tshirt over a long sleeved shirt with a longish skirt over pants (preferably all the same color even... usually green.) That was what I enjoyed wearing. At the same time, I also REALLY loved having sex within my monogamous long term relationship. I didn't reveal much skin at all in public but I was naked as much as possibly when in private with my boyfriend. Sure, I wasn't sleeping around, but I certainly wasn't abstaining! I have no regrets either. I'm happy to have had sex when I did and have the experiences I had. I owned my sexuality and my body. What I wore had nothing to do with the sex I was having. I've also gone through phases wearing less clothing... I loved spaghetti strap tank tops for a time... and I wasn't having sex then.

I'm just not concerned with the clothes my kids choose to wear... I'm more concerned with what they are doing.


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