# Help! I need info on late circumcision



## cornflower_3 (Jan 15, 2006)

*


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

There is a "Case Against Circumcision" Forum here, and I am sure you can get lots of information there...

As A Matter Of Fact, I am sure your post will be moved there, so keep your eyes peeled for a trek over there...lots of informed people there!!

Good Luck.


----------



## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

I agree. You will get lots of advice on the Case Against Circumcision board.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yes- come over to case against circ forum.

DO NOT allow your son to be circed. You have been given false information. Some males are not retractable until AFTER puberty. Your son's penis is fine and normal. Please let it be.

-Angela


----------



## redpoint1 (Jan 12, 2006)

You've definitely got some poor information. How about letting the child chose whether or not to have the surgery when he's a teenager? That's what my husband's parents did, and he's so grateful.


----------



## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

Hi Mama!

In case you are not used to forums, here is the direct link to our area for circ stuff:

The Case Against Circumcision

Lots of very well-educated people with lots of research can help you out there. Please check it out and post your question there, in case this thread doesn't get moved there itself.

Take care, welcome to Mothering and please, PLEASE know that you are getting bad information. Your son, I promise, does not need to have his foreskin removed.


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Its common not to have seperation until puberty. If you are trying to pull it back, stop. The only person to manipulate his foreskin should be him. If you do it you cannot tell when to stop or if it hurts.

Wash it only with water, don't put any bubbles in his baths.

I assume he's out of diapers, which can sometimes cause irritation.

I'm hoping Frank or someone else knowledgable will come on here and give you more information.


----------



## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Please don't get him cut. Fours years old is still very young, and there is nothing remotely abnormal about him having a fully adhered foreskin. And actually, there is no reason anybody should be trying to retract it at all. He should be the first to pull it back, and that could happen anytime from now till he's into his teens.

Even in the unlikely event that it hadn't separated by the time he begins to be sexually active, there are ways to encourage it to separate that don't involve amputating his foreskin.

The occasional irritation does need an explanation, but NOT surgery. Is it a yeast infection? An reaction to the soap he uses? Detergent sensitivity?

If the doctor hasn't come up with a diagnosis for the irritation, what makes him think that cutting off half the skin on the kid's penis will make it go away? If it turns out to be minor irritation from laundry soap, no amount of skin removal will cure what ails him.

Be very wary of American doctors, if you live here. They are largely completely ignorant about foreskins, as I've started to learn the hard way. Sigh. And that's not your fault, Mama. You came to a good place.









ETA: And tell the grandparents you did the right thing! I hate that "nannynannybooboo" bit from people who are 60 years too old for that sort of thing. And, as it turns out, they're still wrong.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

RUN, don't walk, to the phone and cancel that circumcision!!!!

Sounds like some cut-happy doctor just wants to make some money.

(And why is this your first post if you've been around Mothering for over four and a half years??)


----------



## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Not retracting at 4 1/2 years old is NOT a valid reason to circumcise.
In your own words "I am aware that it can take up to age 5 or even puberty." And then repeat the last part "or even puberty".

Cancel the surgery.

You have good reason to be afraid. Surgery is not called for.

Read the web resources for more information.

Minor irritation should resolve without surgical intervention.
I am not really sure what you are meaning when you say tightness of skin - do you mean that the foreskin does not retract?


----------



## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

This is really scary. There's nothing wrong with his penis that circumcision is going to solve. Find a different urologist, one who doesn't believe in circumcision as therapy for an irritated penis. Good LORD!
If your daughter were having recurrent yeast infections, would you excise her labia? I know you wouldn't, but would the doctors? Not in this country, but in Egypt...?

Go read this article and print it out for the urologist:
http://doctorsopposingcircumcision.o...etraction.html
You can also contact one of their doctors there to talk about the irritation with him.

You need to look at ways to solve the irritation that don't include amputation of genital structures.
-change his laundry detergent
-avoid soap near his genitals
-is he being molested? (sorry to ask this, but it's often a consideration when a child has periodic irritation as you describe)
-is he starting to become retractile? read the sticky at the top of the no-circ forum here to learn about what penises look like as they start to become retractile (red swollen foreskin sticky)
-forced or 'gentle' retraction on the part of a caregiver or physician
-food allergies
-is the boy pinching or playing with it? we have several stories here of boys complaining about their penises hurting, then the parents realize he was just yanking on it or had stuck stuffed animals down his pants, etc.
-is his underwear new? a bit coarse?

Please describe 'irritation' in a little more detail so someone with more medical knowledge than me could possibly give you a better idea of the situation.

Hope this helps, please keep us all posted, we're all interested in helping out your son.
-Lindsay


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

: Dont do it! More than likely, there is nothing wrong with your babe's foreskin!

It is perfectly normal for young boys forskin not to seperate until sometime in puberty!

Are you trying to retract him to clean him? If so, please stop! This may be causing the infections. Only he will know when he is able to retract, and then show him how to clean. Simply pull back, slosh around in the water and put back. NO SOAP! NO SCRUBBING! For this will cause infections.

Until then, do nothing! Just help show him how to wash it just like a finger, and without retracting.

Can he pee? If he can pee, and nothing is obstructing him being able to urinate, THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO DO ANYTHING.

And I agree with the PP, the fact that the surgery is scheduled for all the way somewhere in April, PROVES THAT IT IS NO EMERGENCY. The only thing you would need to worry about is if babe cannot pee, and if so, then that would be a dire emergency that needed immediate attention, though not necessarily circumcision.

The date set for the surgery is a tell tell sign that the doctor is just trying to make some change ($$$$) off of you and your DS.

Hugs, mama.

Tomorrow, Frank will probably come in.


----------



## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

What brought you to this place? Did you feel anxious that he was not retracting and take him to the doc? Was his penis bothering him?

I have a 4 1/2 yo boy as well, and I am never anywhere near his penis to know if it's retracting or not. He routinely gets erections







and I never seen any retraction either, but I know it'll happen.

It's kind of like even tho you don't know how much milk the baby is getting, you see them growing normally so you trust that they're getting enough.









This must be terribly stressful for you, I am so sorry you're dealing with all of this!


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Yes, and just ignore those wagging grandparents!







:


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

One more thing:

When Frank comes in, he will probably tell you that circumcision will not necesarily solve the infection.

You need to fire that Doc, and have another doc DO A CULTURE! They will probably swab your babe's foreskin with a Q tip, and then culture it to see what type of bacteria grows. Then they should prescribe a antibiotic that is appropriate.

That will cure the infection.

PLEASE DON'T GO THROUGH WITH THE CIRCUMCISION BEFORE YOU DO THIS! Your babe will thank you later for saving his foreskin!

Hugs again, mama.








Keep us updated.


----------



## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Run screaming from the urologist who gave you steroid cream. Like you said, retraction doesn't need to occur until after puberty. The function of foreskin retraction is for sexual intercourse. If your child is not having sex, the foreskin does not need to be retracted.

I dearly hope that no one is trying to retract his foreskin to clean or 'help' the skin stretch. Such actions are entirely inappropriate until puberty when a boy will do it himself. Repeated retraction at too young an age will cause damage and scar tissue to form on the tip of the foreskin. This may lead to a circumcision actually being necessary later in life.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*







Help! We did not have my son circumcised at birth because we made an informed decision that it was medically unnecessary. (Thanks in no small part to all the great info in Mothering.) However, my son is now 4 1/2 and his foreskin still does not separate at all.

I would be very surprised if it did. It can and does take sometimes into adulthood for this to happen.

Quote:

he somtimes gets irritated or infected in the area.
Irritation is very normal when the glans start to naturally release from the head of the penis. If it is infection there would be swelling as well as pain. Possibly discharge if u see this then a swab should be done to check to see if it is infection and what kind. Do not allow the dr to retract the forskin as this is not needed the swab should be just the tip of the forskin.

Quote:

At the advice of a urologist we used a steroid cream for 30 days which did cause some separation, however the skin grew tight again as soon as we stopped using the cream.
On this my guess is if the glans isnt ready to come loose then it wont it is tight like that for a reason to keep the germs OUT.

Quote:

Now my son is scheduled for a circumcision in late April, which at this point is a minor surgery requiring general anesthesia.
CANCEL THAT APPT. there is no need for your son to loose such a valuable part of his genitals. You need a new dr right now.

Quote:

I am so scared. I still have all the fears that influenced my original decision, and the added fear of anesthesia. I am trying to get a medical second opinion on the matter but would also appreciate some informed insight.
You should be very scared about putting your child to sleep for NO reason other than a dr who is ignorent of intact penis care. Get a second and even third opinion by a intact friendly dr. Maybe someone here lives near u and can recommend one.

Quote:

Is this too soon to be concerned with the foreskin not being separated. (I am aware that it can take up to age 5 or even puberty.)

YES YES YES it is way to soon to be worrying about this. I have no idea if my ds is even close to retractable because NO ONE but your son should be fooling with it in any way. Not to look for infection not to check to see how tight it is. For NO REASON.

Quote:

My concern is the tightness of the skin and the irritation, may indicate a problem.
Read the sticky's here at the top of the page Red, Swollen or inflamed foreskin and this one as well A warning to parents of intact sons they will prolly answer all your questions better than I can.

Quote:

Also we are dealing with grandparents who are wagging there "why didn't you just do this in the first place?" finger at me.
I hear u there my mom espeically would be doing that but they are wrong to do so and I would stop discussing your ds's intact status with them since they obviously have no real information to give to you and just make u feel bad.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Frank is here!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*
However, my son is now 4 1/2 and his foreskin still does not separate at all.

It would not be unusual for his foreskin to not retract for another 10 to 12 years so trying to get it to retract now is not only unnecessary but could be damaging. Let nature take it's course.

Quote:

He sometimes gets irritation or infection in the area.
As indicated in the previous links, it may not be an infection. Boys foreskins are very sensitive and that's a good thing. That sensitivity will be an asset for him when he's an adult. The sensitivity, vascularization and enervation is similar to the lips and just like the lips, anything can cause the redness and irritation like him playing with it too much. While the redness is not something to be ignored, it is also something that should be of particular concern if it comes and goes.

Quote:

At the advice of a urologist we used a steroid cream for 30 days which did cause some separation, however the skin grew tight again as soon as we stopped using the cream.
I imagine he gave you a prescription for betamethesone 0.05% cream. This is a skin softener and relaxer that adult men use for this purpose. It is contraindicated for a 4 year old and should not be used. It is used to loosen the foreskin opening. The foreskin opening is normally tight until the body is ready for retraction. It is surrounded by non-elastic tissue and when the time for retraction comes, the body replaces the non-elastic tissue with elastic tissue. It is expected that when you discontinued the medication that his foreskin got tight again. His body was returning to normal!

Quote:

Now my son is scheduled for a circumcision in late April, which at this point is a minor surgery requiring general anesthesia.
I have seen absolutely nothing in what you have written that would indicate a circumcision for your son.

Quote:

I am so scared. I still have all the fears that influenced my original decision, and the added fear of anesthesia.
It is not unusual for you to be scared. All of the myths and lies of circumcision are still circulating in your head. Many Moms have second thoughts and fears even they know they are irrational. We're here to soothe and comfort you with rational information.

Quote:

I am trying to get a medical second opinion on the matter but would also appreciate some informed insight.
A second, third or even 60th opinion is justified for you to get information to calm your nerves and get the education necessary to be confident in your decision. There is certainly no urgency. I know of men in their 30's who were not retractile, had rewarding sex lives, satisfied partners and multiple children. They weren't really concerned about it, it was their wives who came to me asking for help. I gave them a link to a site that gives directions for resololving a non retractile foreskin with simple stretching exercises. As far as I know, all were successful.

Quote:

Is this too soon to be concerned with the foreskin not being separated. (I am aware that it can take up to age 5 or even puberty.)
Yes!

Quote:

My concern is the tightness of the skin and the irritation, may indicate a problem.
The tightness is normal and should not concern you as long as he has no problem urinating. If the irritation is transitory, it is also no reason for concern. If it's persistent, then it may indicate a bacterial or fungal infection that can be identified with a culture and successfully treated with medications, not surgery. Think about it like this: If your daughter had a genital infection, would you allow them to cut the infected parts off of her genitals? The exact same infections that girls have are the ones boys have and the exact same medications will cure either. Why is medication the only option for girls and surgery is often presented as the only option for boys? It just doesn't make sense, does it? I once had a horrible infection on my foot. Imagine the same treatment regime was recommended to treat that infection that is recommended to treat a genital infection in intact boys! I would be missing my foot!

Quote:

Also we are dealing with grandparents who are wagging there "why didn't you just do this in the first place?" finger at me. I really couldn't feel any worse, we all try to make the best choices for our children. Thank you for any information or insight you can provide.
-Rachel
You don't need to be rude but you need to tell them to just mind their own business. "I told you so's" are extremely rude when you are as concerned as you are. In the long run, you'll be able to tell them "I told you so!" without even saying a word. The mere existance of your healthy,happy and whole son will scream volumes.

Frank


----------



## cornflower_3 (Jan 15, 2006)

*


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

It appears that "Dr. Frank" had the right prescription for you . . . A double dose of information and support that resulted in your immune system restoring your confidence!









Frank
(No, I'm not really a doctor!)


----------



## brown eyed girls (Jan 2, 2006)

I have a 4 1/2 year old son too.... born Aug 01. He is still just as tight as the day he was born, does not retract at all. I've only seen the tip get red here and there, and I admit it's not easy to get him into the bath at all. I've never used soap on him, mostly the bath is just get in warm water with a little calendula oil and play until most of the dirt has washed off.









My parents were here in November and my mom volunteered to give him a bath since I had morning sickness (what a misnomer eh?).... She immediately came out to the living room, freaking out because he needs circumcised like yesterday. She gives me grief every time I see her about all the old men she treats as a nurse, who all have horrible nasty uncirc'ed penises. Whatever. Let's circumcise all our daughters too then, because I helped do hospice care for my grandmother the last 3 months of her life, and let me tell you it was NOT pretty.

For the record, my 4 1/2 year old doesn't handle himself nearly as much as his (circumcised) brothers did at this age. They *always* had their hands in their pants. This child also likes to go commando (no undies). He's been potty trained since about 20 months old, too. I don't know if any of that has anything to do with the unretractability (is that a word?) of his penis, but there ya go.

I tell my son "no one should touch your penis but you and NO ONE but you should ever try to make it play peek a boo. Yell "NO, STOP!" if anyone does, and then come tell Mommy."

Good luck


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*
. I was introduced to Mothering through a wonderful neighbor who shared her subscription, and all back issues with me, but as I have said, I recently moved. I also recently became computer savvy, and it just occurred to me this morning that Mothering would have a wonderful web sight where I could find a wealth of information.


Oh, sometimes I get Mothering the mag and Mothering.com mixed up. I'm so glad you're here!


----------



## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

How depressing is it that a freakin urologist would be so cut-happy over nothing, though? Urrrrrghghghghg. That whole scenario is wrong about fifteen different ways.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

So glad to hear your mind is more at ease! I hope you've canceled that appointment. The only money that urologi$t should get from you should be the co-pay for the appointment where he $olicited $urgery and gave you extremely bad advice.

If you read the back issues of Mothering, you probably saw the articles from Dr. Paul Fleiss (these are linked at the top of this forum in the thread titled "Mothering articles." If you would like to contact Dr. Fleiss, I am sure he would be happy to speak to you. I can send you his email address and his phone number. Just let me know (send me a private message by clicking on my username and selecting "private message").

Welcome to MDC!


----------



## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*
I just moved. Our previous pedi. didn't worry at all about my son's foreskin. My son has gotten a couple of true infections, where the penis swells, is purple/red and he has trouble urinating. Once this was cured with an oral antibiotic, once with an antibiotic cream applied directly. When he started to get an infection after we had moved, his new pedi. freaked me out and sent me to a urologist who seemed to have his mind made up before he walked into the exam room. Anyway, so glad I came here, reinforcing the idea that I should trust myself before any other professional. Also, I never tell him to keep his hands off, as everyone is fond of saying, his penis his choice. Really though, he has never been very interested in handling his penis much. I know it doesn't retract because of caring for it when it was infected. The occasional irritation does sound more normal, given my new wealth of information. I was introduced to Mothering through a wonderful neighbor who shared her subscription, and all back issues with me, but as I have said, I recently moved. I also recently became computer savvy, and it just occurred to me this morning that Mothering would have a wonderful web sight where I could find a wealth of information. I hope I have answered all questions, and a great big THANK YOU TO YOU ALL. You have all made me feel so much more confident, and reminded me to follow my instincts. Trust me, consider the surgery canceled, and thank you again. These may be my first posts, but they won't be my last.
-Rachel



























































Bravo to you for following your instincts and seeking help to back up your instincts!









It's a shame that most of our doctors are so ignorant about the anatomy and normal growth of the penis and foreskin in the human male from birth to adulthood.














The problem is, the only thing they learn about the foreskin in medical school is how to cut it off.









Have you, by any chance, recently moved to the Midwest? Unfortunately, we are the most backward part of the country when it comes to circ. and foreskin issues--we have the highest circ. rate and the least-educated health professionals in the nation.







Yes, I believe the two are connected. We parents find ourselves having to educate our doctors and nurses, when it should be the other way around.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
How depressing is it that a freakin urologist would be so cut-happy over nothing, though? Urrrrrghghghghg. That whole scenario is wrong about fifteen different ways.

You've got to realize that urologists are surgeons and when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. It reminds me of my grandson Julien. He found a hammer and knew he was supposed to hit something with it so he went down the side of his Dad's pickup using it the only way he knew how.







:

Frank


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm jumping in before I read the rest of the post.

My son is 4 and 1/2 and does NOT retract yet, it's normal. The tip of my son's foreskin does get a little red or irrtiated looking from time to time also. I would find another doctor who is informed about foreskin before I even thought about circumcising my son.


----------



## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Rachel, I am so glad to see that your mind has ben eased and that you are going to cancel the appointment. As many of the others have said, retraction can occur much later than many of the child care books and doctors would have you believe. One of my intact nephews had to wait 'till 16 for the last of the 'adhesions' to release his foreskin from the glans. The mother of another nephew was concerned that he was not retractile at 12, when all of a sudden, one day he found he could retract with ease.

Also, there have been no infections along the way, so again, as the other posters indicated, there is probably a reason for them that you need to figure out.


----------



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Just a thought that I want to put out there, I'm just thinking, and I don't mean to put blame anywhere on anyone (except on those clueless doctors giving out wrong information), but just had something I wanted to say:

It occurs to me that perhaps the doctor may have been trying to "stretch" the foreskin and gave you a prescription for cream that's suppose to stretch it, and possibly with instructions for you to try retracting it and stretching it or whatever...

Could it be that the constant stretching of the forskin before it was ready to be retracted and the constant attention to this area with the applying of cream and whatnot could in itself have caused the frequent infections?


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hi there. Just another chiming in to say that your son sounds perfectly normal to me







My older ds is four and his foreskin still doesn't retract as far as I know. He's not shy so if he "discovered" anything new, he would *have* to show me









Here are some links to my favourite intact care info.....including one by the AAP that maybe you could forward to that ignorant physician so no other boys are put through this sort of thing.

http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

Take care,
Tara


----------



## cornflower_3 (Jan 15, 2006)

*


----------



## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*











































to you all. O.K. so Frank isn't a real dr. but can I tell my family you are? I can just hear it now,!!!!!listening to some kook on the internet instead of sound medical advice!!!!!!!!!!....oh yeah, I'm gonna get it. My feeling is, I listened to a whole bunch of kooks on the internet, as well as my kooky self. And in the long run, isn't that better than listening to a couple of quacks?










nak but







yep precisely


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*











































to you all. O.K. so Frank isn't a real dr. but can I tell my family you are? I can just hear it now,!!!!!listening to some kook on the internet instead of sound medical advice!!!!!!!!!!....oh yeah, I'm gonna get it. My feeling is, I listened to a whole bunch of kooks on the internet, as well as my kooky self. And in the long run, isn't that better than listening to a couple of quacks?

















:







:







:

What you tell them is between you and them but if they should come here and ask, I'll tell them I'm not a doc. Do what you can get away with and what satisfies them and gets them off your back.

Frank


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You can always contact Dr. Fleiss......who is a real doc. PM Quirky for his info.


----------



## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*











































to you all. O.K. so Frank isn't a real dr. but can I tell my family you are? I can just hear it now,!!!!!listening to some kook on the internet instead of sound medical advice!!!!!!!!!!....oh yeah, I'm gonna get it. My feeling is, I listened to a whole bunch of kooks on the internet, as well as my kooky self. And in the long run, isn't that better than listening to a couple of quacks?

















:







:







:


----------



## cornflower_3 (Jan 15, 2006)

*


----------



## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Just wanted to add my son to the veritable plethera of 4 1/2 year olds mentioned on this thread who do not retract.


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*
I just told my family I had been speaking with another doc. who was more informed about the care of an intact penis. (It can't be a total lie, someone here must have a PhD.)


Yes, we do have at least three doctors in regular attendance here. They are juris doctors! (lawyers)







:

All's well that ends well!

Frank


----------



## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cornflower_3*







Well its official, the surgery is canceled and scribbled off the calendar. All this accomplished with remarkably little finger wagging, I think everyone is just relieved. I just told my family I had been speaking with another doc. who was more informed about the care of an intact penis. (It can't be a total lie, someone here must have a PhD.) Anyway thank you all again, I can't express enough how much I appreciate everyone sharing there experiences and information, as well as offering support. You are all providing a wonderful service. Keep up the great work!









Woohooo!














:


----------



## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

I am so happy for you and your son.























Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
If you would like to contact Dr. Fleiss, I am sure he would be happy to speak to you. I can send you his email address and his phone number. Just let me know (send me a private message by clicking on my username and selecting "private message").

Welcome to MDC!

Even if it is after the fact, you can take Quirky up on this offer of contact information for Dr Fleiss. Then you really would be talking to a doctor who is more knowledgeable about intact kids.

Here is a link to the article that he wrote for Mothering in '97 (as appears on the noharmm website) http://www.noharmm.org/mothering.htm

And.....


----------

