# What do you do when there is nothing left to do?



## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I look at some of these posts and just have to laugh!! (Laughing because I wish it was me!) We are so past "I don't want to yell at my kid".

What do you do when spanking them with a wooden spoon (how I was) sounds just about right (I won't of course)? Or a good soap in the mouth washing? Or giving them away to another family for a couple of days?

I swear I am ready to wash my hands from three of them. I dislike them. They are rude. They are mean to each other. They have attitude problems. They are lazy and they are incredibly ungrateful. They are basically horrid. I feel like a witch in Roald Dahls "The witches". That is how I would describe my kids lately.

They are 4, almost 7 and 8. All girls.

Example: I like a clean house. It makes my brain work better. My house is not only messy, but dirty since the twins were born. I spent a good portion of X-Mas eve cleaning. I re-arranged rooms and sleeping situations. My eight year old has her own room now, and the middle two have theirs. It was clean and organized. That was only a couple of days ago. I worked my butt off, away from the babies, to get it done.

IT. IS. A. MESS.

Not only a mess, but dirty. They have no regard or care for anything given to them. A beautiful puzzle box from Grandma is strewn across the floor and bed, a piece completely missing. This was a thoughtful, kind EXPENSIVE gift to them. They don't care. Clothing piled. Christmas clothing heaped in a pile. Paper torn up and thrown around. I am appalled at them. These are two of the laziest kids. They don't seem to care about anything. When I get to the yelling point, my four year old says that I don't love her, and won't do anything. My seven year old will sit there on her bed for HOURS and not do anything.

My standards are set. I am not just going to close the door and walk away. That does nothing but teach them that disrespecting their things is not only okay, but acceptable. It is not. It is rude and horrible. They really honestly don't care about anything. I throw things away...they don't care. Timeouts...they don't care. Name it, I have done it.

This extends throughout the whole house. Dishes left where they ate. Clothing scattered throughout the house. Tissues on the ground.

It has gotten worse and worse and worse. I don't know what to do anymore. I am at a loss. My eight year old is a little better, but has been into the eyerolling and attitude lately.

I really don't like my kids at all anymore. I love them...but I am done.

Right now this very minute they are in thier rooms not cleaning it up, screaming at each other (two babies sleeping) being horrible to each other. I want to go in there with a trash bag and throw it all away.

Sarah, horrible rotten mother


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Two things:

The kids do not sound horrible, they sound like most children, but...

You sound completely and totally burned out, to the point that you have lost perspective and as a result, connection. I know you already know this, but it might help to hear a fresh voice saying this is not about the kids behavior at all, this is about your own state of mind right now. You are in crisis.

I would strongly suggest some kind of counseling for yourself--a safe place to recharge your own emotions. If that isn't feasible, you must get some time alone to recharge. The children absolutely feed off your state of mind! If you are not feeling confident, calm, and in control, they cannot provide you with that via their own behavior. The parent sets the tone. You know how a flight attendant says to the parent "Put on your own emergency survival gear before helping your kids"...same thing here--if you are drowning, the kids cannot save you. The parent has to get in a better place emotionally, and THEN address any discipline issues.

I am so sorry you are feeling this stress. Parenting is so draining, and with twin babies (how old are they??) I am wondering if you have some hormonal issues adding to the mix of overwhelm and fatigue.


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## Solose (May 10, 2008)

I read your post and had to comment. First of all, I just want to say, wow! you have five children, and two of them are nursing babies, I have no idea how you even do it. So forgive me if my suggestions sound naive, as I am only a mother of 1.

Were your twins were born recently? Your dds are probably still adjusting to not having as much time with you. What your 4 yr. old dd said kind of makes me think they might feel a bit disconnected from you right now. Maybe you could try spending some one on one time with each of them? I know that must be very hard to try to do with 5 kids, but i think that would help.

As to their behavior, I wonder what would happen if you just stopped and "closed the door and walkied away," as you said. Right now, they are able to disrespect their belongings with no consequences because you go in and fix everything for them after they make a mess. Explain to them that from now on they clean up their own rooms and help wash the laundry and wash their plates(or watever you think is age appropriate.) Do not buy them new clothes or toys when their old ones are not taken care of. If they want a clean plate, they must wash the plates or at least bring them to sink, you get the idea. You sound like a bit of a neat freak, and I don't mean that in a bad way, so this might be really hard for you at first but I think it would really pay off in the end. Eventually, they will feel embarrased about wearing dirty clothes and want some toys to play with and hopefully learn that they msut take care of their own things. Ofcourse, some of what I said won't apply to your 4 year old and this works with some kids and not others, but I think it's worth a try.
Also, you are not a bad mom for wanting them to act civil with each other and clean up after themselves. I think you are a great mom for having the intuition to know it isn't right for children to treat their parents like housemaids.

My parents never taught me to clean and if i didn't clean my room my mom would go in and do it for me. Now,I am a chronically messy and porcrastinating person and this has hurt me in so many areas of life. I battle with it every day and I really wish my parents had taken a hard line with me in regards to cleaning and organizing, because now it's very hard for me to change old habits. So I really commend you on at least trying to get your kids to learn to clean, because it's so important to learn that at a young age.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I also wanted to state that I am sick with a head cold and I am sure that is part of this. And that there is a difference between normal kids being kids, and the lack of care that they seem to feel towards the things that they are given.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Perhaps if they don't care, you can take away those toys they don't care for. If clothes are left on the floor, bag them up and donate the clothes. (Up to a limit, of course, because your children need clothes, but if there are any excess of clothes or favorites that they just drop on the floor).

Prior to using this method, I would recommend first discussing it with them and maybe even writing it down on paper for them to see so they know you will do this if they don't put their clothes and toys away. I'd recommend much discussion on the topic before actually taking anything away. Then I'd say the first time, maybe take the toy/clothes away for a period of time if you prefer that instead of permanently taking the things away.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

This is not parenting advice really. It is very, very general advice that I use for dealing with people who upset or disappoint me in any part of life, kid or otherwise: I decide that for the next x amount of time (hour, day, week, year, whatever fits the situation) I will take their most upsetting behavior as an immutable given and work around it. (Ex.: My boss was very critical when I was first learning my job, so I decided I would just expect criticism for a certain amount of time.)

You may or may not be able to apply that to your situation.

Another thought, you said something about wanting to farm out your older children for a while. Do they have friends and/ or relatives with whom they could do a sleepover?

And finally, this is counterintuitive but not taking care of their things doesn't necessarily correlate to ingratitude or not caring. I sometimes have been known to have, shall we say, unrealistic expectations about the durability of certain objects which were nonetheless important to me. Especially when I was a child, but it happens even now. So it's important not to assume malicious motivations.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I agree with everything annettemarie said. You children are acting absolutely normal. In fact, they sound like me. My natural inclination is to leave puzzles on the ground, and tissues, and clothes . . . it is how I am and have always been. I try to do differnet and be better, but I'm a work in progress, and I'm an adult. Having strict and firm standards isn't going to make your children suddenly capable of change. It's only going to make them feel how acutely they just don't measure up in your eyes.









So here's what you need to do.

First off, you need to be able to make the house clean for your own mental sanity. This is not your children's responsiblity. Your comfort and mental sanity is not their responsibility. It is YOUR responsibility and perhaps your husband's, depending on how you have decided to have household responsibilities split up right now. Responsibility doesn't mean you yourself need to do it, but that it's your job to see it gets done. When you yourself cannot do it, it is not appropriate to delegate responsibility to children who cannot handle it. You can ASK them for help, but don't expect much. Just because they CAN physically put the puzzle away and put the tissues in the trash, doesn't mean they have the mental ability and presence of mind and motivation to do that at all times. The best way to teach them is by motivating with love, and by example, but this will take time-- as in, they may be better helpers by the time they're 10 or 12-- not now. (If they were naturally neat kids, they might be better helpers sooner, but all kids have differing personalities and talents and apparently neatness isn't your kids strong suite, which is normal.)

Delegating _is_ a good idea, though-- when you delegate to a maid, a teenage helper (12-13yo kids who live in your neighborhood are GREAT for this!) or to your husband or another family member. But not a young child.

Another great thing to do a a busy mom with limited resources is get rid of stuff. Declutter. Try simpler living. Modern living comes with so much extra STUFF and it is so stressful and unnecessary. Have you seen this blog? http://www.walkslowlylivewildly.com/ It is very inspirational to me. Visit the Decluttering and Simple Living forum right here on MDC.

Secondly, you need to learn to accept and love yourself unconditionally. Then extend that compassion and generous spirit to your children. But you can't love others when you don't have love for yourself. I hear a lot of self-loathing, as well as loathing of your children, in your post, and those are connected to each other. The book Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves proposes that we reparent ourselves first. Usually it's not our kids who need to change-- it's us. You need to nurture yourself and heal your heart.

Basically, you just have way too much on your plate right now, and since your older children are the lowest ranked citizens in your house (they have no power or leverage), they are bearing the brunt of the anger and stress, which isn't fair. You need to take that burden of stress off of yourself before you pass it on to them. I strongly recommend flower essences, especially Rescue Remedy. Please take care of yourself!


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
I also wanted to state that I am sick with a head cold and I am sure that is part of this. And that there is a difference between normal kids being kids, and the lack of care that they seem to feel towards the things that they are given.

I am sorry you feel sick.









I don't get why people are supposed to care so much about THINGS. Maybe your kids are wiser than the average American in that they get that STUFF is just STUFF no matter how much it cost. I would recommend encouraging this attitude of non-materialism by guiding them in getting rid of a bunch of stuff. It would make all of your lives easier.

And really, it REALLY IS just normal kids being kids. I don't know of any kids who treat their stuff with special care. EVERYTHING you've mentioned, every example, sounds typical to me. I'm sure neat kids exist-- I think I've heard stories before-- but it is not the norm. Really and truly.

And even if they were below-average sloppy and uncaring-- SO? What would it hurt to accept them unconditionally anyway? That might be the best way to help them change.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 

you must get some time alone to recharge.

This is part of it. I have two four month olds and when I am alone, it is to clean someone else's house. My husband is awesome with giving me time, but I clean about seven times a month, and it adds up. I don't often get three hours alone to do nothing. I miss that. I know that it will come again, and I love babies...but I sure there is stress with the constant needing of me.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I don't get why people are supposed to care so much about THINGS.

It has nothing to do with the stuff of it. It has everything to do with it being a gift. Someone took the time to think of them, to put love into something that they thought expressed who they were...and they treated it like crap. It breaks my heart for my mother in law, who gave of herself in this way, and they don't care. That bothers me. The thing is that the know what they are doing, but do it anyway.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I am wondering if you have some hormonal issues adding to the mix of overwhelm and fatigue.


I don't think so. I am pretty aware of my hormones. I think that I am just fed up, mixed with a head cold, brewed in a Minnesota winter, and dashed with a pinch of the holidays!!


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Solose-

Thank you for the wonderful advice. I am going to try some of it out and see what happens!


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## Rsmom (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I agree with everything annettemarie said. You children are acting absolutely normal. In fact, they sound like me. My natural inclination is to leave puzzles on the ground, and tissues, and clothes . . . it is how I am and have always been. I try to do differnet and be better, but I'm a work in progress, and I'm an adult. Having strict and firm standards isn't going to make your children suddenly capable of change. It's only going to make them feel how acutely they just don't measure up in your eyes.









So here's what you need to do.

First off, you need to be able to make the house clean for your own mental sanity. This is not your children's responsiblity. Your comfort and mental sanity is not their responsibility. It is YOUR responsibility and perhaps your husband's, depending on how you have decided to have household responsibilities split up right now. Responsibility doesn't mean you yourself need to do it, but that it's your job to see it gets done. When you yourself cannot do it, it is not appropriate to delegate responsibility to children who cannot handle it. You can ASK them for help, but don't expect much. Just because they CAN physically put the puzzle away and put the tissues in the trash, doesn't mean they have the mental ability and presence of mind and motivation to do that at all times. The best way to teach them is by motivating with love, and by example, but this will take time-- as in, they may be better helpers by the time they're 10 or 12-- not now. (If they were naturally neat kids, they might be better helpers sooner, but all kids have differing personalities and talents and apparently neatness isn't your kids strong suite, which is normal.)

Delegating _is_ a good idea, though-- when you delegate to a maid, a teenage helper (12-13yo kids who live in your neighborhood are GREAT for this!) or to your husband or another family member. But not a young child.

Another great thing to do a a busy mom with limited resources is get rid of stuff. Declutter. Try simpler living. Modern living comes with so much extra STUFF and it is so stressful and unnecessary. Have you seen this blog? http://www.walkslowlylivewildly.com/ It is very inspirational to me. Visit the Decluttering and Simple Living forum right here on MDC.

*Secondly, you need to learn to accept and love yourself unconditionally. Then extend that compassion and generous spirit to your children. But you can't love others when you don't have love for yourself. I hear a lot of self-loathing, as well as loathing of your children, in your post, and those are connected to each other. The book Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves proposes that we reparent ourselves first. Usually it's not our kids who need to change-- it's us. You need to nurture yourself and heal your heart*.

Basically, you just have way too much on your plate right now, and since your older children are the lowest ranked citizens in your house (they have no power or leverage), they are bearing the brunt of the anger and stress, which isn't fair. You need to take that burden of stress off of yourself before you pass it on to them. I strongly recommend flower essences, especially Rescue Remedy. Please take care of yourself!























Thank you for that. I think I also need to put this advice to use.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I agree with everything annettemarie said. You children are acting absolutely normal. In fact, they sound like me. My natural inclination is to leave puzzles on the ground, and tissues, and clothes . . . it is how I am and have always been. I try to do differnet and be better, but I'm a work in progress, and I'm an adult. Having strict and firm standards isn't going to make your children suddenly capable of change. It's only going to make them feel how acutely they just don't measure up in your eyes.









So here's what you need to do.

First off, you need to be able to make the house clean for your own mental sanity. This is not your children's responsiblity. Your comfort and mental sanity is not their responsibility. It is YOUR responsibility and perhaps your husband's, depending on how you have decided to have household responsibilities split up right now. Responsibility doesn't mean you yourself need to do it, but that it's your job to see it gets done. When you yourself cannot do it, it is not appropriate to delegate responsibility to children who cannot handle it. You can ASK them for help, but don't expect much. Just because they CAN physically put the puzzle away and put the tissues in the trash, doesn't mean they have the mental ability and presence of mind and motivation to do that at all times. The best way to teach them is by motivating with love, and by example, but this will take time-- as in, they may be better helpers by the time they're 10 or 12-- not now. (If they were naturally neat kids, they might be better helpers sooner, but all kids have differing personalities and talents and apparently neatness isn't your kids strong suite, which is normal.)

Delegating _is_ a good idea, though-- when you delegate to a maid, a teenage helper (12-13yo kids who live in your neighborhood are GREAT for this!) or to your husband or another family member. But not a young child.

Another great thing to do a a busy mom with limited resources is get rid of stuff. Declutter. Try simpler living. Modern living comes with so much extra STUFF and it is so stressful and unnecessary. Have you seen this blog? http://www.walkslowlylivewildly.com/ It is very inspirational to me. Visit the Decluttering and Simple Living forum right here on MDC.

Secondly, you need to learn to accept and love yourself unconditionally. Then extend that compassion and generous spirit to your children. But you can't love others when you don't have love for yourself. I hear a lot of self-loathing, as well as loathing of your children, in your post, and those are connected to each other. The book Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves proposes that we reparent ourselves first. Usually it's not our kids who need to change-- it's us. You need to nurture yourself and heal your heart.

Basically, you just have way too much on your plate right now, and since your older children are the lowest ranked citizens in your house (they have no power or leverage), they are bearing the brunt of the anger and stress, which isn't fair. You need to take that burden of stress off of yourself before you pass it on to them. I strongly recommend flower essences, especially Rescue Remedy. Please take care of yourself!
























Thank you for this whole entire post. It is so very very true. I am expecting too much from them and from myself. I do have self loathing in the sense that I am gross. I have the worst body image and I won't go into because I will manage to offend someone in describing my body. I hate it.

I love my kids, they are so great and funny and wonderful. I think that I need to let somethings go...(starting with a clean house though!) Then I can keep up. I am sick and tired right now, and I just wish someone would help me catch up.

Thank you so much for putting it like it is.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

I was lucky enough to previously click on the pictures of your beautiful family and be impressed by the love on each of your faces.

Your children are picking up on your stress, you do need a break, and I hope God provides someone to give you the time to recharge.

I have two destructive little boys that act like, well, little boys. Your children are acting like children as well. I am trying to conquer the clutter and destruction of gifts by simplifying our lives. Less toys leads to more respect of the toys. You can go through and have them help decide which ones to keep, to donate, and which to put away for later (cycle the toys). Go through the clothes as well. Have a family meeting where you discuss how you would like their help and ask what do they think they could do to help keep clean.

I will pray for peace for you.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

We've found that having a very predictable, consistent routine helps. I've tried to get decluttered, get the house organized, and have set times that the kids are to help out. Right now the main things are clean up time once a day on school days, putting away laundry every day (I fold it and sort it, they put it in their drawers), cleaning rooms once a week (reminding them that cleaning will be easier if they put things away right after using them). I actually have scedules printed for each day, stuck in those plastic sheet protectors so they can check things off with wipe-off markers. It has helped a lot. The afternoon, for example looks like this: play, snack, homework, play, chores, practice, play, help with dinner/shower/set table (depending on the day), play, dinner, ready for bed, sleep. Each thing happens at a specific time, with some flexibility if needed, and we use timers as necessary. The kids have learned that getting their responsibilities done more quickly means more time to play. I did work hard to make sure that it's a balanced schedule with plenty of downtime, and broke up chores into 15 minute chunks so it's not overwhelming (and I have learned that you can really get a lot done in 15 minutes). And my kids really love the schedules (they are 5, 7 and 9). My oldest especially just thrives on this kind of thing, and keeps telling me how much she likes her schedule. I avoided this kind of thing for so long because I thought they'd hate it (projecting my own preferences onto them, I think). They love the markers, they love the responsibility, they love that I don't nag nearly as much anymore (I only have to point out what time it is, and remind them to check their schedule). I am enjoying not functioning as their brain as much anymore.

It's the age-old advice: supervision and consistent routine. Rinse, repeat. I hate it, it just does not come naturally or easily to me to maintain a structured routine, but it really, really works.

Also, I do think taking a step back and creating time to enjoy each other does help ease the tension and help kids cooperate better with us.


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

The holidays can be tough, and with twins? You need an award mama!!!

I totally get what you are saying about the house, and the kids, and I too do not function well in a messy house, yet I am HORRIBLE at cleaning it soooooo, we have found a way to make it work without driving everyone crazy, including myself. Oh and the work when you do all that extra cleaning and you turn around two seconds later and it is destroyed? Enough to make your head spin. So these are a few thigns that help us make it run more smooth(I don't have twins, but I have a 9yo and tornado 4yo and dh and I run a small business).

I have extra cleaning help. That is HUGE. Even to have someone come in once a week, or once every two weeks, whatever you can afford, but it was a huge thing for me to take off my plate and accept that I needed help, and that didn't mean I am less of a person because I am not superwoman, and asking for it.

I minimized/am minimizing the boys toys. Half are in our storage and we rotate. Sometimes kids rooms get messy really quick because there is too much stuff in them. I find they actually play with their toys more this way when there are less, then they actually know what they have to play with.

I also have reached out to my family to see if I can get extra help with childcare, or just having someone come over and I can get time to myself.

Is there anyway you can have your older girls have some kind of chore to do everyday? Something simple and easy, yet something they can do daily? In our family we stress that it takes everyones help to run the house, which includes the kids.








:

Take care of yourself mama!


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
Thank you for this whole entire post. It is so very very true. I am expecting too much from them and from myself. I do have self loathing in the sense that I am gross. I have the worst body image and I won't go into because I will manage to offend someone in describing my body. I hate it.

I love my kids, they are so great and funny and wonderful. I think that I need to let somethings go...(starting with a clean house though!) Then I can keep up. I am sick and tired right now, and I just wish someone would help me catch up.

Thank you so much for putting it like it is.

Awwww, you're not gross!!!





















I know what you mean, though, I'm pregnant and I don't like my haircut right now (which doesn't help) and I'm developing a slight double-chin when I smile and blah blah blah. You know.







: It's yucky to have to deal with body-image issues. And it's hard to work on your body when you have little ones, let alone twins! You need help!

The flower essences are a little bit expensive (well, for me they are-- like $8-$15 a bottle I think, but you might be able to find a better price online.) But they are so helpful. I need to get some more. Crab Apple is supposed to be great for body image issues and interestingly, it's also indicated for neat-freak and germophobic issues, and allergies. Wonder if those issues are linked somehow? They have quizzes you can take online that can help you pinpoint which essences would be most helpful to you. I find such relief when I take them, after taking a dose I just feel a huge breath of relief and it feels like a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Also I hope you can get some physical help with the household stuff too. Take care!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I have a 2.5 yo and a 9 mo, so it's a bit different, but the mess really gets to me, too. My dh is a SAHD and he doesn't clean (ok, occasionally he does the dishes, and he does the laundry, but aside from that he just MAKES messes) and so I have to work, be the organized person, and keep the house tidy and clean. It's an impossible task.

One of the things I've done is hugely reduce the amount of stuff that's around that could be made into a mess. I don't know how we acquire so much stuff . . . argh. But at least once a month, I go around and anything that's been sitting or disregarded or no longer of interest or superfluous . . . goes in a box. I have LOTS of plastic boxes stacked up in the basement. We now rotate them out when dd gets sick of something.

I also had to just wildly change my expectations. As a kid, I always kept track of every accessory to every toy. I took very good care of my things. My dh doesn't get this at all. He loses all the accessories to everything. My dd has no socks, despite having received 10+ pairs of socks in the past month, because he loses them. WHERE DO THEY GO? I don't know.

Solution? Clothing that doesn't require socks for dd.

I also do not give dd any "precious" toys, books, clothes, etc. Anything that I feel has value that I want saved, preserved, etc. I put away. Dh doesn't take care of her clothes, toys or books and lets them get manhandled and destroyed. So dd has the least interesting of the second-hand books, some plastic toys I don't really care about but she loves, and a bunch of playclothes I got at garage sales. Her nice things are tucked away. I either bring them out once in awhile for a brief time for us to play together or wear a special outfit to an event, or keep them tucked away.

These are the things that help me with my sanity. It's imperfect and I lose it sometimes, too. Not so much with the kids, since they're so young, but with dh. I try to find creative solutions to not be so unhappy with the situation. It's not a cure but it is a palliative.

Things will get better.







I too sense that you have a stong need for some time just for you, to breathe and reconnect with yourself. For the purposes of maintaining your happiness, sanity and self-respect, I would schedule that 3 hours a week and fit it in NO MATTER WHAT. It sounds absolutely necessary and you do deserve that time.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Tissues on the floor made me think of the time my co-leaders and I were frustrated with the Girl Scouts (6-11 years old) for being so messy when we spent a weekend in a lodge at camp. In addition to the tissues, they did things like spilling some juice and leaving it on the floor, strewing clothing including dirty underwear throughout the lodge, tracking in mud, and disappearing in the middle of a task as soon as the leader looked away. We were constantly asking them to clean up and help with chores, and we got a lot of snippy attitude.







: So, at the next meeting after camp, we leaders presented two skits showing The Wrong Way and The Right Way. (This is a format kids really enjoy, and I think seeing Wrong first helps to reinforce the Right.) The other leaders pretended to be girls while I was their leader. I narrated my feelings to the audience: "Hey, that hurts my feelings! And now I have to pick up her slimy tissue, ewww!" When we did The Right Way, the "girls" still did the sloppy things but responded immediately and cheerfully to my requests and then didn't do those things again, and we ended with, "Wow, we're done cleaning up early, so we have time for an extra game!" We've done about 4 more camps since then and have a much easier time getting the girls to be neat in the first place and to do chores.

So, if you can get a few friends to pretend to be your daughters, you might try that approach!


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## poiyt (Jul 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
It has nothing to do with the stuff of it. It has everything to do with it being a gift. Someone took the time to think of them, to put love into something that they thought expressed who they were...and they treated it like crap. It breaks my heart for my mother in law, who gave of herself in this way, and they don't care. That bothers me. The thing is that the know what they are doing, but do it anyway.

Forcing them to pick up the gift isnt going to allow them to appreciate the "giving" of it. Im assuming what you mean here is you interpret their disregard for the toy as a disregard for the giving, and thus the person who gave it. I dont see how cleaning it up is going to appreciate the person. Kid slose puzzle pieces, toy parts anything! Whether its the day they get it, or 2 years later. We cant force our kids to be appreciative of gifts (its the same as forcing them to say they are sorry - its manipulation). You be appreciative to MIL for the gift, when she asks - say they play with, because they are! Through your appreciation, your kids will learn appreciation as well.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 









Tissues on the floor made me think of the time my co-leaders and I were frustrated with the Girl Scouts (6-11 years old) for being so messy when we spent a weekend in a lodge at camp. In addition to the tissues, they did things like spilling some juice and leaving it on the floor, strewing clothing including dirty underwear throughout the lodge, tracking in mud, and disappearing in the middle of a task as soon as the leader looked away. We were constantly asking them to clean up and help with chores, and we got a lot of snippy attitude.







: So, at the next meeting after camp, we leaders presented two skits showing The Wrong Way and The Right Way. (This is a format kids really enjoy, and I think seeing Wrong first helps to reinforce the Right.) The other leaders pretended to be girls while I was their leader. I narrated my feelings to the audience: "Hey, that hurts my feelings! And now I have to pick up her slimy tissue, ewww!" When we did The Right Way, the "girls" still did the sloppy things but responded immediately and cheerfully to my requests and then didn't do those things again, and we ended with, "Wow, we're done cleaning up early, so we have time for an extra game!" We've done about 4 more camps since then and have a much easier time getting the girls to be neat in the first place and to do chores.

So, if you can get a few friends to pretend to be your daughters, you might try that approach!










I LOVE this! That's such a great idea to make it fun.

Hugs to the OP. I also feel that my emotional state rubs off on my kids so easily. You do have a lot on your plate right now, just be gentle to yourself and your kids. I also saw your picture, and you are a beautiful, loving family, just look at the sweet picture and imagine everyone embraced in light and love!

I am benefitting from all the good words you are getting too!


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

This may be totally out of left field and sound crazy. Also please understand that I don't mean it as a punishment. And I am not even looking at this as a discipline issue. If it was me in this situation, this is totally what I would do. And I would present it as "mommy is losing her mind so THIS is what we are doing". Not as "you are all horrible so this is what you get". I would make it all about me, and what I needed to feel better. And yes, I'm crazy, but if I'm the one taking care of the family then I will do what I have to do for ME and they can deal with it.

Anyway......

Take a vacation from the stuff !!!!!

I would rent a storage area for three months. Buy moving boxes. Go into the rooms and through the house pack up everything that drives me crazy, and everything that is extra and non-essential. Tape the boxes shut, load them into the van and put them in the storage area. Spend a month practicing all together at keeping the rooms neat while they are easy, stripped of all non-essential items except for a few very favorite things. Make beds everyday, vacuum once a week, put laundry away, not much else to do, keep it simple. When the rooms and the house are manageable with that level of stuff, bring home a box or two. Ease the stuff back into the house as you can all manage together keeping it in a state that you can be sane with. You all may find some of the stuff wasn't missed at all and can go to a different home now. Bring the stuff back gradually, only as much as you get cooperation with dealing with. Hopefully by the time you bring it all back you will have parted with some of it and you will all have become better at managing what is left.

I have actually done this....not for this situation, but when we had our entire house painted inside, while we lived in the basement, we rented storage and basically stripped our house of all nonessentials and brought them all back in gradually over an eight month period. It was _freaking awesome_ !!!!!! Anytime I am overwhelmed by my stuff or our kids' stuff again, I am doing it again.








:


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
This is part of it. I have two four month olds and when I am alone, it is to clean someone else's house. My husband is awesome with giving me time, but *I clean about seven times a month*, and it adds up. I don't often get three hours alone to do nothing. I miss that. I know that it will come again, and I love babies...but I sure there is stress with the constant needing of me.











I have one kid and I clean maybe once a month. I think I've cleaned the bathroom thoroughly twice since we moved here in late May (second time was yesterday...I still need to clean the OTHER bathroom). 7 times a month is like superhero work to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
It has nothing to do with the stuff of it. It has everything to do with it being a gift. Someone took the time to think of them, to put love into something that they thought expressed who they were...and they treated it like crap. It breaks my heart for my mother in law, who gave of herself in this way, and they don't care. That bothers me. The thing is that the know what they are doing, but do it anyway.

Does it bother your mother in law?

I think it really takes being an adult to be able to look at a gift in the way you want them to. I can look at some of our wedding gifts and think "so and so gave me that", but I know that hubby doesn't do that. And if I were to break the bright green candlesticks that x gave us, or the cauliflower-shaped soup tureen that y gave us (both gifts that I really actually DO like even though I never would have picked them!) I wouldn't think "oh I just smashed x or y", I would think "drat, I broke that object". So even though I think of the giver, I don't associate the item breaking with doing anything bad, or not appreciating the giver. And I don't think all people EVER think of gifts in that way, and I don't think many kids out there do it at all.

Good luck!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
It has nothing to do with the stuff of it. It has everything to do with it being a gift. Someone took the time to think of them, to put love into something that they thought expressed who they were...and they treated it like crap. It breaks my heart for my mother in law, who gave of herself in this way, and they don't care. That bothers me. The thing is that the know what they are doing, but do it anyway.

I don't want to sound like ganging up but... they are so LITTLE. They don't get it yet. It's okay that they don't get it.

Why is this bothering you so much; any ideas? Is it that you burnt out cleaning? that it's been hard to clean? That you haven't felt loved and supported? Why is this the hill you are dying on with your kids right now?

You are an awesome mom I'm sure - just breathe. It will be ok. They will appreciate things in the future.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
It has nothing to do with the stuff of it. It has everything to do with it being a gift. Someone took the time to think of them, to put love into something that they thought expressed who they were...and they treated it like crap. It breaks my heart for my mother in law, who gave of herself in this way, and they don't care. That bothers me. The thing is that the know what they are doing, but do it anyway.

As a person who lets things I really like and appreciate "rest" on my closet floor for periods of time, I have to say--it doesn't mean they don't care about the gift. When I get messy and disorganized, even at almost 40, it usually means that I am overloaded. Too much on my plate to take the 30 seconds to get my clothes on their hangers in my closet, so they heap on the floor. Jewelry sometimes falls out of the box and gets tangled up. It can get pretty bad.

Upthread you said they are great and funny and wonderful kids--we are all pretty overloaded this time of year. YOU need a break, and they need one too--probably from the sugar and all the disruptions of the holiday season.

And I totally agree with the stuff posts--the holidays are always a great time to declutter. If they are really not taking care of their things, take away most everything but the basics and see how much they are capable of taking care of. I don't mean it in a punitive way, just that this time of year if you're not pretty ruthless with the decluttering it is very easy to get overwhelmed.

Hang in there and I hope you feel better soon.


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## wrenbrrd (Feb 26, 2008)

I have such respect for you!... firstly, for having the courage to talk about this, & secondly for being a mom to so many children! I can barely do it with one! I'm a single parent... and a person who probably was not cut out to be a parent, but this is where I am, so I'm trying. My son is approaching three, & it is quite difficult, but I bow down to what you must have to deal with on a regular basis.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

It is honestly mid blowing how many similarities we have going on right now.

I actually told my oldest two I was kicking them out. They had 5 mins to pack a bag and get on the front porch.









Which was followed by me







and begging for their forgiveness.

They even started packing the bag














:


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

And my 3 having issues are ds just turned 9, dd will be 7, and ds just turned 4.


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

I think you are totally overwhelmed. I can't even imagine having two little babies with 3 older kids! I agree that your kids leaving stuff a mess doesn't necessarily mean that they don't appreciate their things. I tend to be pretty unorganized myself. I'm sorry I don't have any good advice.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 







It is honestly mid blowing how many similarities we have going on right now.

I actually told my oldest two I was kicking them out. They had 5 mins to pack a bag and get on the front porch.









Which was followed by me







and begging for their forgiveness.

They even started packing the bag














:

I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, but this made me laugh out loud.







I know it was probably pretty traumatic in the moment, but hopefully it'll be something you can all look back and laugh at in the future.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_b* 

I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, but this made me laugh out loud.







I know it was probably pretty traumatic in the moment, but hopefully it'll be something you can all look back and laugh at in the future.









We actually have laughed about it since









I just want to make sure it does not happen again.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I don't have advice, but did want to commiserate with the OP. I also get very stressed when my home is unkept. And I haven't figured out how to keep my three (mostly the boys, DD is pretty neat) from destoying all my efforts on a daily basis. I can have the house spotless at 10:00 am, and by 10:30 - in the time it took me to get the potatoes peeled and the stew for dinner in the crock pot, they can have made huge messes in every room of the house. It is mind-blowing how constant the messes are.

It's not necessarily that they have too much stuff either. Each child has one bed - not unreasonable, right? But do you know how infuriating it is to have them haul the mattresses off of the bed and drag the sheets and comforters into another room and then when you tell them *they* need to put their beds back together, they aren't able to get the mattresses back on the bed and can't pull the fitted sheet over the corner. Or maybe they left their own bed intact and destroyed their sister's bed. And it's the third time that month they've done it.

I also find that although my kids like to make huge messes, they prefer to play in a clean room. So they'll destroy the playroom. Then destroy their bedrooms. Then destroy the hall. Next they destroy the living room. And the entire house is a disaster. And I am ready to explode because I don't have a single peaceful spot for myself.

I joke with DH that I don't want a pedometer. I want a gadget that measures how many times a day I bend over to pick something off the floor (underwear, a shoe, three legos, an apple core, homework paper, a playmobil man, another shoe - and that's just one trip up the stairs).

I've reached the point where I can keep up with the kids' messes a little better, but if I had two babies to take care of, I would be losing my mind.

Oh, and your description of the children as Dahl children and your not-so-nice feelings towards them - I totally identify with those feelings. In the grand scheme of things, I know I am not a rotten mother, but boy some days I feel like one. Those are the days I find myself muttering, "only fifteen more years, only fifteen more years." Unfortunately you've eighteen years left.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

I guess I'm going to be somewhat a voice of dissent here.

To me, 7 and 8 is plenty old to start learning consideration for other people.

Not taking care of a beautiful gift is IMO inconsiderate to the giver. It's not about the thing, it is about the person. While it is probably true that they didn't mean any disrespect to their grandma, that just shows that they haven't yet learned that trashing a gift will very likely make the giver feel bad. So you have to teach them that.

Not picking up after oneself is inconsiderate to the OP. Obviously they should not be spending all day cleaning house, but just little things like taking their plate to the sink when they are done eating is totally within their mental abilities and is a start to teach consideration for others.

I understand the theory that children learn by example and if we model the behaviors we desire (for example, we put our plates in the sink) they will eventually catch on, but I also believe that all children are different and this method works better with some children than with others. I raised my dd very much with that philosophy but her personality is such that she doesn't really pick up on people's emotions and social cues and needs things spelled out to her more. She also much prefers to have things done for her than to do them herself. You know how people say that around 3-4 kids will want to try to tie their own shoelaces? She never did. She'd have me tie them for her today if I would (she is 8) LOL. It's just who she is.

So recently I have started being much more explicit in my expectations of her. Simple things, like making her own snack if I am busy, putting her dishes in the sink, setting and clearing the table for dinner, vacuuming etc. There was some resistance at first but she is fine with it now. I strongly feel that this is important for her, so that she learns consideration for others as well as pitching in to help the family. And as long as I approach it positively, not punitively, she seems to actually enjoy having a role to play.

OP, I don't have any advice because it sounds like you have tried a lot of things, and you have 5 kids whereas I only have one. I don't feel like I have anything useful to offer







. But I just wanted to say that I really understand how you feel, and that I think the behavior does need to be dealt with, not essential ignored and hope they will grow out of it. I kinda like the idea of sending all of their stuff into storage for a while, until you can regain some measure of sanity. Then there would have to be many heartfelt talks (if you haven't already) about how their actions affect other people in the family and how families need to be considerate of each other, along with clear expectations.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 

I don't get why people are supposed to care so much about THINGS. Maybe your kids are wiser than the average American in that they get that STUFF is just STUFF no matter how much it cost. I would recommend encouraging this attitude of non-materialism by guiding them in getting rid of a bunch of stuff. It would make all of your lives easier.

And really, it REALLY IS just normal kids being kids. I don't know of any kids who treat their stuff with special care. EVERYTHING you've mentioned, every example, sounds typical to me. I'm sure neat kids exist-- I think I've heard stories before-- but it is not the norm. Really and truly.


But that is our duty as parents through example and training to assist them in figuring out how to care for there things and live in a cooperative home.

Stuff is just stuff. But being foolish and wasteful with their use is a sin. It is not a matter of coveting those things, however there is no reason to not care about them at all.

If one does not care for their things, they should not own them. There are people who would gratefully accept those items.

But to just jock it up as no big deal if they are careless with belongings I think is wrong.

THAT to me is actually materialism. Everything is replaceable and disposible......so why bother taking good care of it.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
I guess I'm going to be somewhat a voice of dissent here.

To me, 7 and 8 is plenty old to start learning consideration for other people.

Not taking care of a beautiful gift is IMO inconsiderate to the giver. It's not about the thing, it is about the person.

Not picking up after oneself is inconsiderate to the OP. Obviously they should not be spending all day cleaning house, but just little things like taking their plate to the sink when they are done eating is totally within their mental abilities and is a start to teach consideration for others.

I understand the theory that children learn by example and if we model the behaviors we desire (for example, we put our plates in the sink) they will eventually catch on, but I also believe that all children are different and this method works better with some children than with others. I raised my dd very much with that philosophy but her personality is such that she doesn't really pick up on people's emotions and social cues and needs things spelled out to her more. She also much prefers to have things done for her than to do them herself. You know how people say that around 3-4 kids will want to try to tie their own shoelaces? She never did. She'd have me tie them for her today if I would (she is 8) LOL. It's just who she is.

So recently I have started being much more explicit in my expectations of her. Simple things, like making her own snack if I am busy, putting her dishes in the sink, setting and clearing the table for dinner etc. There was some resistance at first but she is fine with it now. I strongly feel that this is important for her, so that she learns consideration for others as well as pitching in to help the family. And as long as I approach it positively, not punitively, she seems to actually enjoy having a role to play.










I agree with everything you said


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
This is part of it. I have two four month olds and when I am alone, it is to clean someone else's house. My husband is awesome with giving me time, but I clean about seven times a month, and it adds up. I don't often get three hours alone to do nothing. I miss that. I know that it will come again, and I love babies...but I sure there is stress with the constant needing of me.

Who's house are you cleaning? Is there a way to drop back to even 6x a month and take 2x (like once every other week) to do something alone? Even just sit in silence at Barnes and Noble or a library and read?

How long can the babies be without you?


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
Thank you for this whole entire post. It is so very very true. I am expecting too much from them and from myself. I do have self loathing in the sense that I am gross. I have the worst body image and I won't go into because I will manage to offend someone in describing my body. I hate it.










Just to let you know.....I think you are truly beautiful! I looked through pics here and on your website and actually said to dh "Damn...she is a hot pregnant lady!"









And what is even better......having the priveledge of talking to you on the phone just made your more beautiful!







You can tell through your words that the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

You are a beautiful daughter of the Most High....both inside and out!

Do not forget that!


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
But that is our duty as parents through example and training to assist them in figuring out how to care for there things and live in a cooperative home.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think there is a balance to strike between caring too much, and caring too little, for material objects.

Here is our approach, for what it may be worth to you:

Our family lives a very simple life in terms of material things and we do *not* have room to keep anything that isn't special or useful. We live in a very tiny home, less than 600 square feet. We don't keep gifts just because they are beautiful or expensive.

My basic approach is that I feel ds should be clearly grateful in the moment a giver is giving him a gift. He understands to say 'thank you' and handle the gift respectfully in front of the giver.

If the gift has considerable value, and he does not want it, there are several things he may do depending on the circumstances. He may offer it back to the giver if that is appropriate (such as an heirloom another grandchild might want). He might donate the item or re-gift it to someone he knows can use it. If appropriate (such as a new unopened board game he already has) he might exchange it at the store for something different, or even sell it online and use the money for something he wants--this option would only be done in certain situations, if the relationship with the giver made us certain this was a good option.

For inexpensive common items (such as a deck of cards, a yo-yo, or something like that) I really don't keep track of what ds does with it. He may cut them up for an art project, hang the yo-yo in a tree as a decoration--there is a point at which I think micro-managing what your child does with their possessions becomes unhealthy. Some parents do care too much for things, to the point that the child's creativity and sense of control is harmed.

For all 'in between' items--things that are nice, which ds wants to keep, and use for their original purpose, I only ask that ds make an effort to keep them in usable condition. I'm not going to nit-pick if he wrinkles pages in a book, or bends the cover, but I will ask that he not draw in it with markers. That kind of thing.

For all 'common' items and all 'necessity' items, like markers, clay, scissors, kitchen items, blankets, pillows, food, the car, the bike, towels etc. that is a discipline issue, in the sense that we do have house rules, and ds is expected to learn and follow our example, and common items may not be ruined because a person was caught up in impulsive fun or indifferent laziness. *Those* are the items which I really stay on top of day to day, give reminders, lead by example, and make a consistent effort to instill in ds a sense of respectfulness and value.

I am going to say that 9 times out of 10 the problem I see with many children is that they are given ENTIRELY to many possessions. Also, children are growing and going through developmental changes all the time. They outgrow things in a way adults don't. So you will see them prize an object for a year, and then let it fall apart. But some of that is developmental. They need an adult to recognize the change, and perhaps say "You don't seem to use xyz anymore. Do you think little cousin Billy would like to borrow it for awhile?". I find ds had an easier time letting go if it was a 'loan' (which he almost never wanted back), rather than having to give up all ownership.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

And really, it REALLY IS just normal kids being kids. I don't know of any kids who treat their stuff with special care. EVERYTHING you've mentioned, every example, sounds typical to me. I'm sure neat kids exist-- I think I've heard stories before-- but it is not the norm. Really and truly.
LTB, I think this is a very American (or wealthy country) attitude. In my experience, in countries where kids don't have a ton of stuff the children do very much take care of their things because it is all they have. I agree with AngelBee that the disregard for things that you see around you is a product of having too much stuff and considering it all replaceable.

Also this idea that children are incapable of certain behaviors is very American. In many countries, 7 and 8 year olds are in total charge of the younger children in the family and they are able to handle the responsibility. I do not consider this a good thing, don't get me wrong, but to say that that age isn't developmentally capable of taking care of things is demonstrably untrue.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
Also this idea that children are incapable of certain behaviors is very American. In many countries, 7 and 8 year olds are in total charge of the younger children in the family and they are able to handle the responsibility. I do not consider this a good thing, don't get me wrong, but to say that that age isn't developmentally capable of taking care of things is demonstrably untrue.











I think sometimes, we as Americans, are way too laxed with our expectations of "appropriate" responsibilities.

For example, since I have allowed my children to take on whatever jobs THEY choose for themselves.....I have been SHOCKED at what has happened!









DS 9yr: LOVES washing dishes, loves washing clothes and putting them in the dryer, loves cleaning glass and dusting, loves cooking preparing meals, change baby diapers, assist Angelo with a bath

DD 6yr (almost 7): loves washing and drying dishes, loves organizing, loves vacuuming and mopping floors, loves cleaning glass and dusting, loves wiping down the kitchen, loves cooking/preparing meals, change baby diapers, assist Mylee with a bath

DS 4yr: LOVES scrubbing the bathroom which includes the sink and toilet, loves caring for the pets, loves washing and drying dishes, loves wiping table and chairs after meals, loves sweeping the floor, loves cooking preparing meals

DD 2yr: Loves folding clothes, washing dishes, caring for pets, helping in the kitchen

NOW.......my issue? I do not encourage these things due to fear of them getting hurt, getting in my way, or taking too long







: I am working on that. We actually made a family chart (without dh on it as he is a big help and will do whatever is needed) with "Home Blessings" on it. THEY created their own lists (see above)







It pretty much would have left me with breastfeeding, picking up, assisting with laundry put away, and overseeing homeschooling!
















They LOVE doing it! However, they hate picking up after them selves









SO for the New Year, we as a family have truly though about doing it their way and seeing what happens!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

It isn't that a 7 or 8-year-old isn't old enough. It's that some of us at any age don't automatically make an emotional connection between the giver and the gift after the initial thanks; and some of us at any age struggle very hard to keep things together. So I was advising the OP not to attribute disrespectful motives to her children when it could be from a different set of assumptions altogether.

If children who have less, take better care of their things, that only means they are capable of taking care of (let's say) five objects. Just because they can take good care of five objects, it doesn't necessarily follow that they or anyone can take equally good care of a hundred objects. There have been stories on MDC, in the adoption forum, of older children who moved from an orphanage to the US, suddenly had the same number of toys as a typical American child after a lifetime of nothing of the sort, and immediately developed the exact same messiness and carelessness of the OP's children.


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## BubbeSue (Nov 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 

First off, you need to be able to make the house clean for your own mental sanity. This is not your children's responsiblity. Your comfort and mental sanity is not their responsibility. It is YOUR responsibility and perhaps your husband's, depending on how you have decided to have household responsibilities split up right now. Responsibility doesn't mean you yourself need to do it, but that it's your job to see it gets done. When you yourself cannot do it, it is not appropriate to delegate responsibility to children who cannot handle it. You can ASK them for help, but don't expect much. Just because they CAN physically put the puzzle away and put the tissues in the trash, doesn't mean they have the mental ability and presence of mind and motivation to do that at all times. The best way to teach them is by motivating with love, and by example, but this will take time-- as in, they may be better helpers by the time they're 10 or 12-- not now. (If they were naturally neat kids, they might be better helpers sooner, but all kids have differing personalities and talents and apparently neatness isn't your kids strong suite, which is normal.)


Ok, I am new here, so please forgive me if I am overstepping the bounds, but I feel compelled (for DoulaSarah) to say that I whole-heartedly disagree with you. It absolutely is the children's responsibility to keep their toys/ clothes/ rooms/ areas cleaned up to their mother's standards. When they are grown with homes of their own, they can use their own standards. By making this bold statement, I am assuming that 1) Mom's expectations are reasonable and age-appropriate and 2) these are expectations that were in place and the children were well aware of them prior to her moment of posting. Given these two things, I think OP is perfectly in line to expect her children to keep their areas and things picked up and to treat their things, space and one another with respect.

I agree that the OP is responsible for her own mental sanity and if that means taking a break without kids or counseling or XYZ she should do so. But with 5 children, she must be able to count on them to help out. It is not the same as an only child or two kids close in age. When there are fewer children, parents can choose to give children fewer responsibilities and still have time to keep house, work, cook, do school work, and LOVE UP their kids. But in a family of 7, if mom is the only one picking up, putting away, clearing the table, doing dishes, sorting clothes, etc. there WILL BE NO TIME for Loving up with Mom. Especially if Mom works, which I believe OP says she does (cleaning homes).

I am not saying that it is better to have more children or better to have few. In a family with 5 kids and the oldest is 8, her needs are way different than the 4 mo old twins. Mom is stretched really thin to meet all of the needs on both ends of the spectrum and everyone in between and her own and DP's and keep house. Maybe before the twins were there, it was ok to let mom do it all. But with newborn twins, all the rules have changed, so Mom gets to change the rules. Best Wishes OP!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I let only a few toys out into the living room and I don't get expensive things that I will feel horrible about if they are left out. DD's things are mostly easy to clean up because we have a bunch of baskets and a toy box to just toss the toys in and I let her have space in the living room for her puzzles and then we take it down together at night or before we leave. I also bag up toys and put them in the garage if they are not picked up and I don't get them out again until it is convenient for me. I rarely have to bag up things though because dd knows that I will forget about them the next day and she won't see them again for quite a while.
I don't know if these things are possible with five kids, but it may help just to find one spot for all of the nicer toys to be and to bag up things if they aren't put away.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
It isn't that a 7 or 8-year-old isn't old enough. It's that some of us at any age don't automatically make an emotional connection between the giver and the gift after the initial thanks; and some of us at any age struggle very hard to keep things together. So I was advising the OP not to attribute disrespectful motives to her children when it could be from a different set of assumptions altogether.

I agree with you lolar! My comment was not directed at you, it was more directed towards this from LTB:

Quote:

When you yourself cannot do it, it is not appropriate to delegate responsibility to children *who cannot handle it*.
Perhaps she did not mean it this way, but her post to me sounds like she is saying that 7 and 8 year olds are not developmentally capable of picking up after themselves or taking care of their things, which I disagree with. Also the idea that the children don't need to show any consideration for the mother because the messy house doesn't bother them is very strange to me. When do they learn consideration for others, if not at home with the family?

ETA: My posts are coming from the standpoint of someone who feels that the very hands-off, show-don't-tell approach was not effective for my child. Children are different, some naturally enjoy doing things around the house, like AngelBee's kids. Some do not, like my dd, and need an extra push. At this point I am convinced that if I am not more proactive with her, she will not learn consideration because it doesn't come to her naturally.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
Perhaps she did not mean it this way, but her post to me sounds like she is saying that 7 and 8 year olds are not developmentally capable of picking up after themselves or taking care of their things, which I disagree with. Also the idea that the children don't need to show any consideration for the mother because the messy house doesn't bother them is very strange to me. When do they learn consideration for others, if not at home with the family?









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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
I guess I'm going to be somewhat a voice of dissent here.

To me, 7 and 8 is plenty old to start learning consideration for other people.

Not taking care of a beautiful gift is IMO inconsiderate to the giver. It's not about the thing, it is about the person. While it is probably true that they didn't mean any disrespect to their grandma, that just shows that they haven't yet learned that trashing a gift will very likely make the giver feel bad. So you have to teach them that.

Not picking up after oneself is inconsiderate to the OP. Obviously they should not be spending all day cleaning house, but just little things like taking their plate to the sink when they are done eating is totally within their mental abilities and is a start to teach consideration for others.

I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
LTB, I think this is a very American (or wealthy country) attitude. In my experience, in countries where kids don't have a ton of stuff the children do very much take care of their things because it is all they have. I agree with AngelBee that the disregard for things that you see around you is a product of having too much stuff and considering it all replaceable.

I agree with this also.

We are not a family that values things over people. If a thing breaks, it's just a thing. At the same time, we want our children to understand that we are very fortunate to have the things we do have, and that we cannot replace everything should we break or lose things. So we do teach our children that it is important to take good care of our things, and I do think it's appropriate to expect our kids to take care of their things insofar as they are actually able to do so. Expecting this and teaching this are not incompatible with respect for the children and their abilities, and are not incompatible with understanding that children will forget at times.

Likewise, we value teaching our children to appreciate the effort and thought that does into a gift. So when our children receive a gift, particularly if we know the gift required extra effort on the part of the giver or holds extra meaning for the giver, we talk about that a lot--and we remind the kids to treat special things with extra care, and provide supervision as necessary. This might involve finding a special place for the item to be stored or used. Right now, we have a few books from the kids' great-grandmother which are about a hundred years old. The kids enjoy them with respect for the history of the family and of the books, and treat these items with great care. They are 5, 7 and 9 years old. They are very capable.

We also value teaching our kids that each member of this family has responsibilities to the rest of the family. We share a living space, and thus we share responsibility. Thus, we expect that our children will participate in the care of the home to the extent that they are able to do so. And that does sometimes include explicit instruction and schedules, but those things are not incompatible with respect, flexibility and problem-solving.

I think kids are very much capable, with individual variation. I also think that if a problem becomes big, as it has for the OP, it can be very helpful to sit down with the kids and make expectations clear, and involve the children in making a plan to meet expectations.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I was taking "who cannot handle it" to mean "who are easily overwhelmed as part of their temperament."

OP, the other day, by coincidence a friend of mine who has a 16-year-old and 11-year-old, told me that on vacations after breakfast every day, before they can do anything else, they have to spend one hour on housework, one hour reading, and one hour playing outdoors (weather permitting). After that they are free for the day. (She allows only one hour of video games and TV only in the evenings, also.) She says this works well, both for the older one who has severe ADHD and for the younger one who is super-organized. Of course there are exceptions for family outings and such. She began this system as soon as they were school age, I believe. So there's another idea that works for someone, somewhere.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I was taking "who cannot handle it" to mean "who are easily overwhelmed as part of their temperament."

Hmm, you are probably right. Even so, while I agree with LTB that children need to be taught with love and example, I don't agree that it is perfectly normal for children to be messy and careless with their things and inconsiderate to other people in the family. It's not really that much different from a child that is naturally aggressive and excitable and hits other children. In that case we wouldn't just explain why they shouldn't hit and then wait for it to sink in, we are more proactive. In the same way, if a child who is developmentally capable of understanding consideration for other people is not being considerate, we need to teach them in a more proactive manner.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I think you have gotten many different perspectives, and I think you have to take it as just that. Different perspectives. You can take what resonates with you and go with what feels right for your family. There is no one right way. There is no right age for children to do things or be a certain way. I think you have to just keep in mind that you have 18 years for them to be responsible adults, and many if us are still working on that, myself included.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

This thread is very interesting to me. I was nodding a lot through the OP's story, as i struggle with many of these things (the attitude, the mess, etc...) with my 2..mostly originating from my oldest, i have to say.

I vacilate between many of the ideas posted, and my final questions is- how to you deal with balking? When your child refuses?

I think it's all well and good to say that we teach our child respect, responsibility etc... and i believe we teach and explain these things to our children as well. Does that mean that my 5.5 yo dd (who is perfectly capable to cleaning up her things. I've seen her do it. She does is at school and occasionally at home.) willingly cleans up after herself because we go over this concept often, talk about how mommy and daddy participate in the household and how she can/is expected to also?

No.

We do not punish. We strive to be a GD family, set examples (always working on that one), and point out that when she's begging me to read her a book and i'm cleaning up, that if she were to help we would read the book sooner. Rarely works.

I routinely take toys out to our barn to be out of rotation, or give them away. I have threatened to take them all away (should probably follow through on that....) and yet... still a mess.

I don't know. It actually makes me feel less stressed to think that perhaps its' too much to expect than to face repeated failures at getting a change in action.

The only thing we have not tried is following a written out schedule or chart. I have resisted because this is sooooo not the flow of our family. I guess that's probably it right there... we either need to accept our flow, or change it.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

I don't often require them to clean up their messes, because they are young (3 and 5). More often I request help and positively encourage it. I believe most of the time they did not intend to make a mess, and when they learn they have created something that is a problem, they are usually happy to have a way to help fix it.

However, there are times here when a mess was made very deliberately in our play room, in a naughty sort of experimenting way.


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https://flic.kr/p/3157975561

And at those times, I do require them to help with the cleanup. If one of them refuses, that kid gets time out while I do the cleanup, even if it takes me half an hour, and for a period after that. (Because if they dump crap all over the floor, and then refuse to help clean it up, I am certainly not okay with them having fun doing something else or making _another_ mess while I clean it up. This is _my_ version of a natural consequence.) Not helping also means that the toys that were involved in the deliberate mess are also off limits until the next day. Helping, on the other hand, is a fun race/game-like activity that is really pretty enjoyable, and they are learning that this is more fun than the long time-out and loss of toys...so we are making progress in this area.

When they are older, when I tell them "it is time to clean this up" I expect immediate effort, even if they aren't sure how to start...I will help them learn how to do it, but I want to see the effort. If they are in the habit of refusing, this is not something I will be willing to put up with, and after a fair amount of time for a change of attitude, that kid will find himself with a stripped down room and very few possessions. I will only let them have as much as they can and will handle.

That said I will never expect perfectly neat rooms, drawers of perfectly folded clothes, etc. I am talking basics...being able to walk through without stepping on toys, and dirty laundry in the hamper. To me this bare minimum standard of housekeeping is not negotiable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer* 
I vacilate between many of the ideas posted, and my final questions is- how to you deal with balking? When your child refuses?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer* 
This thread is very interesting to me. I was nodding a lot through the OP's story, as i struggle with many of these things (the attitude, the mess, etc...) with my 2..mostly originating from my oldest, i have to say.

I vacilate between many of the ideas posted, and my final questions is- how to you deal with balking? When your child refuses?

I think it's all well and good to say that we teach our child respect, responsibility etc... and i believe we teach and explain these things to our children as well. Does that mean that my 5.5 yo dd (who is perfectly capable to cleaning up her things. I've seen her do it. She does is at school and occasionally at home.) willingly cleans up after herself because we go over this concept often, talk about how mommy and daddy participate in the household and how she can/is expected to also?
...
I don't know. It actually makes me feel less stressed to think that perhaps its' too much to expect than to face repeated failures at getting a change in action.

The only thing we have not tried is following a written out schedule or chart. I have resisted because this is sooooo not the flow of our family. I guess that's probably it right there... we either need to accept our flow, or change it.

One thing I learned from the _Secret of Parenting_ that rings true to me is that sometimes kids balk at home because that is their safe spot. Basically, that they may be "holding it together" all day and then they get home and flip out.

The way we've managed that so far with my son (who's only 3.5) is that when things are going *well*, that's when we tackle something like a messy closet in his room, or decluttering his toys. We also try to do something every day, so it doesn't become so overwhelming (not that he can't trash it quickly







).

That way he has an opportunity to participate _before_ we're in conflict about it or it's at the end of the day or just before dinner or some other hot-button time like that.

I also have observed with my niece and nephews that some kids can tidy up a big mess, and some kids need it broken down into pieces. ("Okay, let's clean up the top of your dresser for 6 minutes: ready, set, go!")

Since I'm posting anyway, I wanted to clarify that although I think kids who are 7 or 8 _can_ respect things, I'm still not sure that they really would get that someone who gave them something would be upset that it was on the floor or whatever -- particularly if their other prized possessions are down there. If a room is overwhelmingly messy to me, I think it really might well be beyond them to deal with it.

I don't think it means lifelong disrespect. OP, that doesn't mean you just have to suck it up, but I think it might help to frame it as that they are overwhelmed and forgetful, not disrespectful and unkind.


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## justmama (Dec 24, 2002)

I might be unpopular here but I require my children to clean up. It might be punitive but they clean up or they lose the toy that was left out. I let them play all day long and do not require clean-up(though I remind them when they trip over toys or step on toys and hurt their feet that it might be easier to pick up a few things rather than trip over them) until before bedtime. If my living room is chaotic and messy, we do the ten-second-tidy and everyone(even the almost 1 year old) participates. But the mess in their room is allowed to stay there all day long until bedtime. But at the end of the day it's time to clean up. I will help you. I will be patient while you find the home for everything. But I do require that you clean up your toys because YOU took them out. I am single. I have 3 daughters. I cannot do everything. I am not supermom and when I try to be, I lose control. I become mean-mom, overwhelmed-mom, and mood-swing-mom. So I need help. I am frequently heard saying, "please wait, there are 3 of you and just one of me!" So I will wash dishes and the 8 and 4 year olds put them away(except for the sharp knives). Obviously the more breakable stuff in the top cabinets is for the 8 year old and the 4 year old gets the silverware and pots and pans int he lower cabinets. I do laundry and hang it in their closets. But the 8 and 4 year olds are required to put away the piles of clean underwear, socks, and pajamas in their dresser drawers. Together they take out the recycling and separate it properly and then take the big bins to the curb for garbage day. They are capable of a lot. And they LOVE to put away the dishes. Since we got the cat 2 years ago, the NOW 4 year old has been feeding him in the morning and evening. We marked a line on a measuring cup and she feeds him and I get fresh water. I am one person. I need help to run a household. So I see nothing wrong with making my children contribute to the household chores. And asking a 4 and 8 year old to clean up their toys at the end of the day doesn't seem like a lot to ask. I even have the baby help. She LOVES to put things in baskets so directing her to put one toy at a time into the proper bucket or basket isn't difficult and it makes her sisters feel like everyone in the house is contributing instead of just them being forced into cleaning up a big mess.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I also have to dissent with the cleaning/straightening up business. I think children CAN and SHOULD contribute to cleanliness of the home at an appropriate level. It is not about just the OP's state of mind. Children do not want to live in a dirty house (even if they are the ones that make it that way and are unable to say that they don't like to be in a dirty place). No one does. I'm not saying that dishes can't be in the sink or beds un-made or whatever, but I am saying that ALL family members have a responsibility to contribute to the home in making it a place everyone can be happy in. In short, I feel to some degree it IS a child's responsibility to keep the house "clean" (meaning, I feel that that they have a place in the family and should contribute to the home at whatever level they can). Am I forcing my 4 yr old to clean bathrooms and wash windows and pick up every toy? Of course not. Can he HELP pick up toys, put his tissues in the trash, and put his dirty laundry in the basket? Yup. And that is enough for him at this age. He will voluntarily help out with other things as well sometimes.

As for our "solution"", for us in our house, I do the "cleaning" (bathrooms, scrubbing the kitchen sink, moping the floors, etc.) about 2x a week and DH does an evening "straighening up" after kids have gone to bed (picking up toys, putting away laundry, feeding the animals, taking out the trash, etc.). It basically boils down to both of us doing 1/2-1 hour of housework a day to keep things clean and functioning. DS1 is 4 (DS is only 12 weeks) and he is expected to help pick up toys and help clean up after himself (help wipe up spills, things like that). To us, a clean house is important (it is not "spotless" or perfect by any stretch, but we are comfortable inviting people over, feel happy in our space, and it is relaxing to be in our home).


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
DS1 is 4 (DS is only 12 weeks) and he is expected to help pick up toys and help clean up after himself (help wipe up spills, things like that).

In the vein of some of the pp's, what do you do when he refuses?


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quite honestly, it depends. If he is refusing because he is having some other issue at the time that is beyond his control (exhaustion, illness, that kind of thing) we don't push it and we queitly do it ourselves with a gentle reminder that we're helping him ("I see you're really tired tonight. Let me give you a hand and I'll clean this up for you this time."). If it is purely a lazy thing or a control thing, then we just don't go further- a casual "Before we go out/read/play games/whatever, we need to clean up, so let me know when you are ready." usually works best.

We try to keep it low-key, that cleaning up is just part of what we do, part of the flow, and he rolls with that.

It's not always a 100% thing and he is only 4, but the idea that he contributes and has some responsibility for himself is important to us and to him. Our house is very small. We cannot get away from messes. The livingroom/diningroom is the only place to play, sit, eat, etc. We have one bathroom. From the middle of our house, you can see into every room. If there a giant mess, it impacts everyone. Don't get me wrong- we sure allow mess making- cooking, playing, whatever! We just need to clean it up too if we are to be able to function as a family in our home.

If DS was older- more like the OP's kids, I guess- old enough to understand the expectations and do more but refuse, I might try something like trying to contain the mess in their rooms. I would probably take the attitude of "The shared spaces need to be clean, as they belong to everyone and it is part of how the family functions to have a clean family area, but your room is your own space where you deal with yourself". Then, I would quite literally toss everything on the floor of the common areas into their room. I would not require them to clean it up, but I would not wash clothes not in the basket. I would take toys out of the common areas and any I found there I would box up or toss in their room. I'd probably toss the tissues in there too and anything else they leave for me to clean up. Quite literally, kick the mess down the hall, shove it in their room and close the door. It would become THEIR mess in THEIR space. The natural consequence of this is that most likely, they will get frustrated with their own mess and will need to find some way to deal with it. Like another poster said, kids want to play in a clean space. If they cannot share in playing in the common space without taking responsibility for it, then they have the option of playing in their own space, but it will be messy and dirty if they don't do something about it. Both of these things they have the power to change if they are willing to clean up (and I'd help them if they showed initiative and were willing to work too). This plan would also keep most of the house clean and I'd just shut their bedroom doors. I'd require food to be eaten at the table.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
In the vein of some of the pp's, what do you do when he refuses?

Some things ways in which we've responded to refusal:

~Offer a choice: "well, I still need help. If you don't want to do that, how about you do x, y or z instead? You can choose, but I do need help." Actually, I can't think of a time this hasn't worked for us. There is always something that needs doing, and if I do whatever I've asked my kid to do and my kid washes windows/washes the table/sweeps the floor/whatever then it's a win-win. And most importantly, they are participating in caring for our home and learning that they are capable of taking on responsibility (this is more important than doing exactly what I initially asked them to do). Make sure to express appreciation for any help. (eta, for clarity: In our home we expect the kids to help. You may not choose to not help. You will help. You can choose _how_ to help, so long as it addresses the current needs and is realistic.)

~make it a game: who can pick toys up the fastest? Can we beat the timer? Who can remember where this goes? Who wants to mop the floor by skating around on wet towels? Who wants to vacuum the floor with the elephant's trunk (which the vacuum cleaner hose kind of resembles)? (make sure to express appreciation for help.)

~figure out why the child doesn't want to do it, and help make it easier: Often picking up toys is overwhelming. The kids don't know where to start, or where to put it all, or it's taking too many trips to bring them back to their rooms. To make it easier, we can break it up into do-able pieces or rearrange how we store things or whatever. Making it easier to get done may happen right then, or it may take more creativity and planning (no one says you have to solve these things immediately, sometimes it takes time). Express appreciation for any effort they make.

~Ask yourself: Is this unusual? Is something else going on? Is the child hungry or tired or sick? Overwhelmed? Is there anything getting in the way that we need to address before the child can participate in cleaning up? Would there be a better time of day to clean up?

~Make it fun together time. We can clean a room together and share jokes and conversation, or just be silly. Cleaning up doesn't have to be unpleasant. Express appreciation and tell them you enjoyed their company.

~Simply say "since you didn't do it, I had to do it. Next time I expect you to do it." The expectation remains, the kids know you aren't pleased. And you can make a plan ahead of time to see that it gets done the next time, if need be. The key to this is that expectations have to be both appropriate/realistic and _consistent_.

~"Waiting for the bus:" just stand there, waiting expectantly until they do it. (Not my favorite, not the best approach with my kids, but it has been helpful on occasion.) Express appreciation when they comply.

~Natural consequences: occasionally, something does get accidentally stepped on and broken (or chewed by the dog) when it's left on the floor. This is a good learning experience, and the next time a toy is left out you can remind the child what happened-and they might be more willing to pick it up (or it might take some time). This has been a powerful learning experience here.

~Make it a routine, something that happens the same way every day: it takes time for this to begin to work and to become a habit for everyone (and will require lots of supervision at first, or with kids of young ages). But the predictability of it really helps. Pick up time can be at a designated time once or twice a day. Or it can be that we put away one thing before taking out the next. So long as it's predictable. As always, express appreciation.

I've said to express appreciation throughout. I think expressing genuine appreciation for kids' contributions is important. I like to hear that my efforts are appreciated, I express appreciation for my partner's efforts every day, and I extend the same to my children. Positive feedback is very important. Kids need to know that their efforts are appreciated.

I think it's important to remember that these things take time, and no single response is going to work every single time. And sometimes, things aren't going to get done. It's a process. And our kids aren't the only ones learning. It takes time for them to get it, and it takes time for us to learn how to best approach this issue given our temperament & abilities and our kids' temperaments & abilities. And it does help to stretch our comfort zones a little bit, to be flexible, to be patient, and to get creative. I also think it helps to keep the expectation very clear and consistent: I find that it's okay to change our approach when needed, change our routine if needed, get creative, sometimes be flexible and open to negotiatin, to find new ways of doing housework--but the expectation is _always_ that the kids will help, that is always the goal and the message.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Solose* 
My parents never taught me to clean and if i didn't clean my room my mom would go in and do it for me. Now,I am a chronically messy and porcrastinating person and this has hurt me in so many areas of life. I battle with it every day and I really wish my parents had taken a hard line with me in regards to cleaning and organizing, because now it's very hard for me to change old habits. So I really commend you on at least trying to get your kids to learn to clean, because it's so important to learn that at a young age.

I just want to say my mother was opposite to yours, she had high expectations of what clean should be, taught me well, and yet I am a messy housekeeper!
I think we all have different standards of what we can live in and what is acceptable varies greatly between people! Hence the stress of living with people (spouses, kids) who all have different standards.
We can only change ourselves.
Imho, hard lines only hurt.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

I love all of Magella's suggestions. I wanted to add two: with my dd, I've found that just simply being very firm usually works. Basically I don't give her a choice of whether she is helping or not. I explain the situation to her: the house is messy, I can't do it all myself, families help each other, etc etc and then look her in the eye and say calmly but forcefully YOU WILL HELP, now, would you prefer to vacuum or sweep?

Another idea I got from a friend is to dock their allowance if they don't help. For example, we give our dd an allowance every week that is not tied to chores, it is just her money to save and spend. However, if she leaves her dirty dishes out and I have to bring them into the sink and spend extra time washing them because the food residue has gotten hard, I will charge her 1.00 for that service and take it off of her allowance. So it is sort of a logical consequence. I also docked her allowance a few times when she was being very fussy and unpleasant about helping me when I asked, which isn't terribly logical, but it did have the desired effect. It helped her get past the initial transition phase and now when I tell her we are going to spend an hour cleaning she is fine with it.

I think the key thing to remember is that, unless a child has some unusual issues surrounding cleaning, they will eventually get used to the new rules and routine and will be fine with it. It's only really hard at the beginning, when they are making the transition into having new responsibilties.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Alright, I didn't have the time or interest to finish the thread, but several people have attacked my ideas-- not me, I understand,







just the ideas-- and these are people I respect so I will try to respond.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
I guess I'm going to be somewhat a voice of dissent here.

To me, 7 and 8 is plenty old to start learning consideration for other people.

Not picking up after oneself is inconsiderate to the OP.

Okay, so where does this take you? So you've decided that your children should act a certain way. Great. What if they don't? Now what are you going to do? This places you in the position of trying to control and change your children. I do not accept this as a way to live, in my family. I choose to accept people the way they are and I trust and have faith that when I am loving and centered then they will respond cooperatively and we will all live in harmony. If life is not harmonious, all I have the power to change is myself. Actually, I do have the physical power to make my children change but that's bullying so I don't do that.

Sometimes children are lazy, sloppy, and inconsiderate. This is a sign of them being out of harmony. They are not old enough to know how to get back into harmony, so it's my job to help them. Punishing them, showing anger and disapproval, having "standards" that I "expect" to be met-- it doesn't help. By being loving and helpful and communicating effectively and manipulating their environment to be more harmonious for them, I can help them be more centered and therefore more cooperative, however, even then I have to keep in mind their age and ability level.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
But that is our duty as parents through example and training to assist them in figuring out how to care for there things and live in a cooperative home.

Right, I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
Stuff is just stuff. But being foolish and wasteful with their use is a sin. It is not a matter of coveting those things, however there is no reason to not care about them at all.

So it's a sin. Being cranky, snapping at, and spanking your kids is also a sin (IMO). Parents are far more likely to sin far more often than their young children do, IME. We know better and so more is expected of us. So the kids are sinners, so what. Is it my job to play God and punish my kids every time they sin? Does God punish me every time I sin? No. He has set up Nature to naturally react to disharmonious living with the consequence of disharmony. That is it's own "punishment" I suppose, but it is no artificially created punishment designed to coerce the subject into compliance.

How did Jesus teach? Gently, kindly, lovingly, compassionately, with lots of smiles and patience. And those were adult disciples! How much more gentle should we be with our little ones.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
If one does not care for their things, they should not own them.

Absolutely. So do your children a favor and get rid of the excess stuff that they don't even really want. They may think they want it because of societal pressure to collect and hoard, but you can gently show them that if they really cared about it, they would take care of it. Then help them to pare down their belongings to what they can actually manage.

Disharmonious living (messy house, children uncooperative) is a sign of disharmony (too much stuff, for instance) so the key to change is to solve the problem and create a more harmonious environment to live in, which will promote harmonious living.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
THAT to me is actually materialism. Everything is replaceable and disposible......so why bother taking good care of it.

Well, most things ARE disosable and replaceable. Especially children's possessions: toys and clothes and puzzles and etc. And even if it isn't replaceable, it's still just stuff. But of course, we should still be careful with our things. It shows care and gratitude for God's world. But people first, always. People who are careful with things but not careful with other people have their priorities mixed up. Of course, the virtue of care and thoughtfulness in all applications is developed only with time. It is not inborn in most children, perhaps in some in personality but not in general, and especially not when it has not been _modeled_ to them. Now, in our American world these qualities are certainly NOT modeled much to children, so it is a difficult deficit to overcome with just our own example. This means we ought to be be understanding and compassionate as our children try to learn in an unhelpful world.

*Children are likely to show the things and people around them the level of respect which they feel for themselves, and they will feel the level of respect which you 1.) show to yourself (model) and 2. show to them.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
LTB, I think this is a very American (or wealthy country) attitude. In my experience, in countries where kids don't have a ton of stuff the children do very much take care of their things because it is all they have. I agree with AngelBee that the disregard for things that you see around you is a product of having too much stuff and considering it all replaceable.

I agree. Perhaps you have misunderstood me.

So get rid of the stuff. It doesn't really matter. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter how you treat it. It means it doesn't matter enough to make your life miserable and shame your children in making them "take care of" this rubbish they don't truly care about. Why teach them that this stuff is REALLY IMPORTANT and they have to make their daily life revolve around it. Why not just LET IT GO. Problem solved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
Also this idea that children are incapable of certain behaviors is very American. In many countries, 7 and 8 year olds are in total charge of the younger children in the family and they are able to handle the responsibility. I do not consider this a good thing, don't get me wrong, but to say that that age isn't developmentally capable of taking care of things is demonstrably untrue.

Completely different cultures. Ever heard of the Continuum Concept? You can't expect modern American children to have the same responsibility and understanding as children who have been raised entirely differently. If the children are not doing something, then in that moment, they are not capable of it. Period. You can try to empower them to be capable of it, but shaming them because they do not meet up with what some other kids somewhere else can do, or what you "expect" them to do, is not helpful or constructive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BubbeSue* 
Ok, I am new here, so please forgive me if I am overstepping the bounds, but I feel compelled (for DoulaSarah) to say that I whole-heartedly disagree with you. It absolutely is the children's responsibility to keep their toys/ clothes/ rooms/ areas cleaned up to their mother's standards. When they are grown with homes of their own, they can use their own standards.

Look, the bottom line is, you cannot (for the most part, except physically exerting some control over their bodies) control your children. You can only influence them. And there are only two ways to influence children-- by sweetness and gentleness (which can and ought to also be firm and strong) or by fear and intimidation (which comes from a place of insecurity and weakness, which children will pick up on).

Take your pick.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thao View Post
I guess I'm going to be somewhat a voice of dissent here.

To me, 7 and 8 is plenty old to start learning consideration for other people.

Not picking up after oneself is inconsiderate to the OP.
Okay, so where does this take you? So you've decided that your children should act a certain way. Great. What if they don't? Now what are you going to do? This places you in the position of trying to control and change your children. I do not accept this as a way to live, in my family. I choose to accept people the way they are and I trust and have faith that when I am loving and centered then they will respond cooperatively and we will all live in harmony. If life is not harmonious, all I have the power to change is myself. Actually, I do have the physical power to make my children change but that's bullying so I don't do that.

I disagree with this. I agree with what Thao said, and I think saying that children are (generally) capable of learning to be considerate others and having expectations and values regarding what I want my children to learn does not lead me to a place where I must control my children, or force them to act a certain way, or shame them when they don't meet my expectations.

What it does lead me to is a place where I can and do work with my children, to problem-solve together so that their needs/concerns and the needs/concerns of the family are both met. We can work together to make changes that help us all. And yes, that will take more work on my part than on their part. And yes, I can only control myself but I can also request change from my kids and I can influence my kids, and I can create the circumstances that allow them to change and learn and take on responsibility. IMO, there is nothing inherently disrespectful or non-gentle about having realistic expectations and encouraging children to take on responsibility. It is possible to say to your child "I expect you to help" and not become punitive (or shaming) when they do not help. It's possible to say "I expect you to help" and then work proactively and positively to engage their cooperation.

I have had great success working with my kids in this way, saying more or less "we need something to change. This is what's happening, and this is how I feel about it, and this is how I notice it impacts you. Let's try this (or what do you think we might do?)." I have had great success overcoming major problems with one child, in a supportive, positive and proactive a way, while also saying "this is what I expect. You can do it. I'll help." And when things didn't go well, we said "it happened. it's over. I love you. You'll get it. I believe in you."

Expectations and values and principles and rules don't need to be negative. There's a lot more middle ground than you seem to be suggesting, LTB.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

So your expectations are realistic based on the harmonious and helpful envrionment you create for your children.

My response was more to the situation found with the mothers who are not successful in their expectations-- Sarah Doula and AngelBee. They may have (or had) these expectations, but without creating the environment that fulfills these expectations where does that leave them? Just because you think your child ought to be able to do soemthing doesn't mean they can or will. So that advice that they are justified in these expectations is not going to be ultimately helpful to them, IMO.

Better to just focus on manipulating the environment the children live in, and changing yourself as a parent, and changing the way you are communicating with your children. Then the children will adjust accordingly.

Basically, what I am saying is if the children are not meeting your expectations, you do the changing, rather than telling the children to change or complaining that they are not measuring up. Or worse yet, punishing them for not meeting your expectations.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

So, your response was in reaction to the idea that children should change without any change on the part of the parent and/or environment/schedule? Is that right? I would agree with that. We can't simply expect kids to change without guidance and effort on the part of the parent. I didn't read anyone as saying that, though (but I could have missed it).

I do think it's important to consider not just the child's behavior, but also how we parents can alter our behavior/style of communication/etc. in order to help our children change their behavior. I see it as a _team_ effort, with more effort required of the parents because parents are more able and experienced. I don't see it as one-sided at all, I don't think either parent or child must be the only one to put in effort and make changes when there is an ongoing problem. But yes, parents do need to put forth greater effort when big changes need to be made--or at least different effort.

What I thought you were saying was that expectations, themselves, are harmful even if a parent is making changes (because again, I did not take from this discussion any recommendation that parents not make changes themselves--in my view, any behavioral change on the part of the child is only going to happen through parental effort). That is what I disagreed with. I actually think clear expectations are healthy, as are clear boundaries and clear values--and there are many ways of communicating, implementing and addressing expectations, boundaries and values (some of which I consider positive and healthy, and some I don't).


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

My issue is that focusing on expectations often leads to parental frustration and thus anger or punishment, as opposed to constructive change.

Focusing on expectations is like entering the equation halfway instead of at the beginning.

I don't think that expectations are necessarily a bad thing. They are always there-- everyone has expectations of some kind, for better or worse. But I think when inciting change, we can take the word "expectation" out of the equation completely, and therefore bypass a sense of "parental entitlement", and often get much farther as a result.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
But I think when inciting change, we can take the word "expectation" out of the equation completely, and therefore bypass a sense of "parental entitlement", and often get much farther as a result.

Ah. Yes, in our family the key word is "concerns." We all have concerns. Everyone's concerns are legitimate. Sometimes we have problems, and problems are simply, in someone else's words, "two concerns that have yet to be reconciled." So we're more likely to focus on "how can we both get our concerns met?" because that question leads us to better problem-solving and solutions. So, I expect my kids to help--but that is shorthand for two concerns: 1) I value every person contributing to the upkeep of the house and 2) I need help, I cannot do all the work of all the kids all the time plus my own, I do need for them to do what is realistic and healthy (not too much) for them each to do. Their concerns are taken into consideration as well (their concerns might be "that's too hard" or "that's too much" or "I just want to play and don't like chores"), and we can find a way to address both their concerns and mine. That may mean one of us or both of us has to give a little, it may mean we find a completely different way of doing things, it may mean we ask for help. But we can do it.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
Ah. Yes, in our family the key word is "concerns." We all have concerns. Everyone's concerns are legitimate. Sometimes we have problems, and problems are simply, in someone else's words, "two concerns that have yet to be reconciled." So we're more likely to focus on "how can we both get our concerns met?" because that question leads us to better problem-solving and solutions. So, I expect my kids to help--but that is shorthand for two concerns: 1) I value every person contributing to the upkeep of the house and 2) I need help, I cannot do all the work of all the kids all the time plus my own, I do need for them to do what is realistic and healthy (not too much) for them each to do. Their concerns are taken into consideration as well (their concerns might be "that's too hard" or "that's too much" or "I just want to play and don't like chores"), and we can find a way to address both their concerns and mine. That may mean one of us or both of us has to give a little, it may mean we find a completely different way of doing things, it may mean we ask for help. But we can do it.









I like the concept of focusing on reconciling concerns.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Sorry. Just feeling TOO snarky today.

My short version:

Remove excess stuff the kids are not ready for the responsibility of keeping neat.

Require them to help with the organization of what is left. Assist them with learning this skill.

IMO it is not harmful to a child to have to follow some reasonable rules set by their parents and face negative consequences when they choose not to cooperate.

Finally, I believe that when a child is on a behavioral course that does not meet the parents' standards, it is appropriate for the parents to assist with changing that. Even if the kid does not always like it.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Thanks for responding, LTB! Also for not taking my comments personally, and they certainly weren't meant personally. I have no doubt that the way you parent is working wonderfully for you and your kids are great. I just believe, based on my experience, that it will not work wonderfully for every kid.

Quote:

You can't expect modern American children to have the same responsibility and understanding as children who have been raised entirely differently.
I think we agree? Originally I thought you were saying that 7-8 year olds are not capable of the responsibility of picking up their things, in the same way one might say a 2 year old is not capable of algebra (i.e. its just not developmentally appropriate). But now I understand you are saying it has more to do with the upbringing, in which case I agree. We CAN expect our American kids to be just as responsible and understanding as kids in other circumstances, but we have to change the way we raise them if we want that. Right?

Quote:

If the children are not doing something, then in that moment, they are not capable of it. Period.
Here, I'm afraid I don't agree, and probably it is the crux of where our philosophies differ. This viewpoint leaves no room for the possibility that the 7-8 year old is *capable* of doing it but simply doesn't want to, because it isn't fun, or because they've never had to do it in the past. That is a part of human nature, IMO. Even people who have had wonderful upbringings (I would count myself one of those) are aware of having a selfish side and struggle to do the right thing at times. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that this selfish side is completely absent in children until, say, they turn 18. It's just there, along with all the abundant good in human nature. Obviously a very small child cannot be expected to understand and struggle with it. But I believe a 7-8 year old can begin to understand if they have been taught that sometimes you put aside what you want in order to do the right thing.

Quote:

I think when inciting change, we can take the word "expectation" out of the equation completely, and therefore bypass a sense of "parental entitlement", and often get much farther as a result.
I also disagree about "parental entitlement"







. My kid and I do not have an equal relationship. We are equal in value, but not in our roles. We're not roommates who share bills and responsibilities and make decisions independently of each other. I take care of her and, given my age and years of experience, and also given the fact that I can't just move out (like I could with a roommate) if she is behaving badly, I feel I am entitled to guide her and teach her and, yes, set certain expectations.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your viewpoint, but it seems very one-sided to me. My daughter most certainly has expectations of me. She expects me to feed her, clothe her, spend time with her, etc etc. I accept those expectations gladly. What is wrong with having expectations of her? (Naturally, assuming they are appropriate to that child's age and mental abilities and are communicated in a loving but firm way.)


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I felt this way about my place until I instituted a nightly routine of pick-up.

Now, I'm not saying everything on my routine gets done EVERY SINGLE NIGHT...but it is happening often enough that I'm happier with it.

The routine--7 PM, kids pick up their room (enough so we can walk in there, the toys are not real organized







) and they need to get their toys out of the common living areas--except their stuff that goes with the kitchen set that lives in the kitchen.

What works for us is the next part of the bedtime routine is DS gets to choose watching a favorite show or reading a book with me, if he refuses to participate in cleanup, he goes straight to bed. (Which one, I consider a natural consequence--if I have to do it myself, it takes longer and then it is time to go to sleep. Two, I have the kind of kid that learns well from these type of consequences--I've only sent him straight to bed twice in four or five weeks.)

While I'm directing them through pick-up (they need me interacting to stay on task), I *try* to get the kitchen swept. Some nights this goes well, other nights I have to be right with them in the bedroom, wherever they are to keep them going. I also pick up stray junk from the living room that belongs in places other than their bedroom while they are picking up their stuff.

Another thing I read in a gd book (adventures in GD) that I think I am going to try if needed is a box where things they refuse to pick up go. They can have it back probably after a day. What this mom did though was often there would be several items in her box and she would give back one thing the next day *IF* they could name what it was they wanted.

she found her kids had so much stuff they did not care and would actually think about whether or not it was worth picking up









for me I think if it became a really big problem I'd do that and if something stayed in the box for a long time--weeks, a month. I'd donate it to goodwill or somewhere.

back to the routine on a really good night the coffee and end tables might actually get washed off too. (that's pretty rare







)

I'd say probably 3 to 4 nights out of the week the only thing we get done is picking up stray junk. But at least we are getting that much done. Before it was nothing at all


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Checking in to see how you are doing


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

We put a bunch of our Christmas toys in the attic. They can swap out for a toy that is up there when they get bored. That way I don't have to look at it, but I don't have to get rid of it either. I encourage them to clean up their toys in the living room before we transition to the next activity. Sometimes I have to help or make it a game.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but wanted to chime in and say I really appreciated LionTigerBear's original post. It really resonated w/me and is similar to other material I have read and tried to internalize. I whole heartedly agree w/it.










But it is difficult to get to that mindset on a daily basis and not get upset w/my oldest (the only one of the three that I would dare blame as the other two are really little yet).









~Tracy


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah* 
My standards are set. I am not just going to close the door and walk away. That does nothing but teach them that disrespecting their things is not only okay, but acceptable. It is not. It is rude and horrible. They really honestly don't care about anything. I throw things away...they don't care. Timeouts...they don't care. Name it, I have done it.

I only read the first page and the last page, so I hope I'm neither redundant nor missing vital data but here goes:

1. I hope you're feeling well now!

2. I know you say your standards are set, but I can't resist pointing out that children who are not allowed to treat their possessions however they like are not in a position to feel like respecting your wishes for your possessions! I strongly believe that if you give something to a child then they can destroy it if they like. Mine's four, so she does. But they will certainly get to the point where they value having something and know that you won't replace it for them, and they'll have respect for that thing.

In the meantime, since you are letting them control their own possessions, you can expect and enforce their respecting your possessions. ie. your room is your business (short of a safety hazard, which is always a parent's business) but the hallway, living room, etc belong to all of us and it's not okay with me to have it messy!

My MIL wrote and illustrated a long book for dd for Christmas and because we knew that dd has taken to drawing fairy wings and other accessories in the pages of her books, we were worried about giving this beautiful thing to her. So MIL gifted it to the three of us (dd, dh, and I) and dd knows it's not up for drawing in. Maybe you could warn relations not gift delicate or valuables until you see that they will appreciate it?

At first her drawing in books was really disturbing to me, as I really value books and she has some really nice ones. But, feeling as I do about a person's possessions, I knew it wasn't for me to stop her anymore than a friend has the right to tell me what to do or not to do with gifts she gives me. If I hate the porcelain chicken, I'll probably donate it to charity! Which, by the way, doesn't lessen my appreciation or expressions of gratitude to said friend.

Anyway, I know where I stand, but I wanted to share my viewpoint in case it helps. FWIW, I do think that children who have the right to their own possessions, and who are allowed to contribute to the family (in the ways that they originate, not in obedience), will tend to make for more peaceful parenting/childrearing. Whatever you do, I hope peace hits soon!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Perhaps if they don't care, you can take away those toys they don't care for. .

OP - I understand where you are coming from - I have 3, and my older 2 are that way (5 and 3) and I have no clue what to do either.

I have done what the pp is quoted before however what happens in my situation is that then my kids are bored from having nothing to play with and beat eachother up more.










I am lurking here cause I have NO idea how to do this.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I agree, adn then when quoting laughed, b/c I just moved from the same far NWS location.









My kids are 3 and 5, so very young, but I also get upset in the same situation sometimes. YES it can be a call to reevaluate your expectations, the "stuff" you have and how it is cluttering up your lives in more ways than one. But I don't think it's all entirely about deeper issues of harmony here. I still think they can learn to respect your home, the work you put into it, and help pick up their own toys (we declutter regularly and my kids still have more than 2-3 toys. the best stuff imo, blocks, books, can get quite messy). The key is (obviously) not expecting them to do it without your guidance and help. It's easier for me to pick up my kids rooms without their help in short run. in the long run, I think it is a mistake to do so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llp34* 
Sorry. Just feeling TOO snarky today.

My short version:

Remove excess stuff the kids are not ready for the responsibility of keeping neat.

Require them to help with the organization of what is left. Assist them with learning this skill.

IMO it is not harmful to a child to have to follow some reasonable rules set by their parents and face negative consequences when they choose not to cooperate.

Finally, I believe that when a child is on a behavioral course that does not meet the parents' standards, it is appropriate for the parents to assist with changing that. Even if the kid does not always like it.


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