# I Want to Move To Another Country



## Whisper

I am really fed up with everything here. Of course I am in no position to pick up and move. But I have been looking at sites that offer information on how to go about moving to France or Canada.

I just saw the movie "Sicko" and I AM sick from it.

Can anyone help me restore my faith in this country?

I feel -- for one -- that we will NEVER beat the system as it is now. I feel we will NEVER eliminate those big health insurance companies and provide health care for all.







:

Is it really better in the other industrialized countries?


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## fishface

I saw it Friday night and was having the same discussion with my boyfriend. I'm ashamed. I used to be SUCH a proud American, from a military family and was set to join the Navy. My senior year, my English teacher wrote a letter of recc for college for me and said something about how I have a strong sense of country and great patriotic pride or something. I was SO patriotic and any songs about America, like "God Bless the USA", "America", the SSB, you name it, sent chills up and down my spine. I loved it. Then the fallout from Sept 11th started hitting the fan in terms of foreign policy.

I don't feel the same anymore. I am ashamed of where I live, of who our leader is.

The only thing keeping me here is my boyfriend because we planning on getting married in 2-3 years. If that doesn't work out, I'm out of here. I don't know where, but I'm gone. Maybe Canada b/c it's so close to home (Ohio) or maybe France. I studied a lot of French in college and wouldn't mind the chance to use it and get better.







Germany also has an excellent health care system. Unfortunately if I move to another country, it won't help what my parents will have to go through when they need senior medical care and lord knows what expensive drugs. (hopefully none)

The things that really scare the crap out of me are:

-- med/drug care for seniors
-- maternal/infant care

in the US.

I have to run but please please feel free to PM me with your thoughts and concerns. Hey, maybe we can be American pals in a foreign country someday.







:


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## merpk

I just don't get it. You want to move to another country because the health care system in the US sucks? Is that what you're saying?

Just needing clarification ...


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## delfuego

TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY!

Fear and apathy are our worst enemies! If you don't like the way things are going (and I for one don't) then change it! I know it seems like a big job... something that one person could never do, but remember... it's not just one person! There are many people out there that feel the same as you, we all need to be more vocal about our frustrations and disappointments with the way our country has become overrun by corporate greed! Start by writing letters, calling your representatives, let them know what you think. Get educated... don't just stop at seeing the movie... go out and seek more information. Educate others and take a stand! Join an organization that supports your values.

Like Joe Hill said... "Don't mourn, organize!"


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## Whisper

It's not just the health care system. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel betrayed by our government. I feel that our democracy is a farce. I need a reason to feel patriotic again.

Can you give me those reasons?


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## chaoticzenmom

We lived in France last year and, well, the healthcare system there really rocked in some ways. The dr. comes to get you in the waiting room, you pay the dr, no nurse necessary. The dr's visits were great...but!! and a big BUT, you have no choices for vaccines, birthing preferences, treatment options, etc. I would not have been able to be exempt from vaccines for my child. There were less options for educating them and I was not allowed to volunteer in their classrooms. In those other countries, there is only one way to do medical care and it's the way your dr (ie.GOD) says. My poor SIL had to give birth on her back even though she had decided to go natural. It was the dr's preference, so she had no choice. She also couldn't leave the hospital for a week after birth.

So, yes, in some ways it's better, but there's always a trade-off. I wouldn't trade vax exemptions or birthing options for it.

Lisa


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## Whisper

If my kids are older, and have never been vaxed, would they be required to be if we went there? Would I?

And what do you mean there are less education choices? I think I heard they do not support homeschooling. But are you denied entry to the classrooms?


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## fishface

Quote:

I need a reason to feel patriotic again.

Can you give me those reasons?
I don't have kids, but I am a nanny. Last month I taught the two older ones, 2.8 and 5 years, patriotic songs like "This Land is Your Land". The little one learned the SSB from a book (!) and the older one learned "God Bless America" at school. We aren't religious but when I was little I didn't view it as a religious song, just an American one. Anyway, I'm getting distracted.

It was THROUGH THEM that I started to feel slight patriotic tingles. THEY are our future. They are not MY children biologically, but they are my children as an American, if that makes sense. I cling to that and know that they deserve to grow up in a better country. When they are old enough to understand the goings-on around them, I hope we have fixed it so it is not like it is today any longer.


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## Whisper

Remind me what is great about this country.

I guess maybe part of the problem is that when I grew up, it was all the USA is the best...it was all about being better, stronger...BETTER!

Why do many people risk their lives to get here...people who aren't Americans...


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## chaoticzenmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
If my kids are older, and have never been vaxed, would they be required to be if we went there? Would I?

And what do you mean there are less education choices? I think I heard they do not support homeschooling. But are you denied entry to the classrooms?

Yes, your children would be required to be vaxed. I wrote in the spots for my child's vaccines because I had no exemption option. You are not allowed to volunteer in your child's class in most schools there. When I went to become a legal resident, they did want me to get vaxed or have proof of vaxs.

As for education options being limited, that's a really complicated thing. You have private schools and public schools. Your child gets interviewed for the private schools and mostly the well off get into them and they're religious. We got into one because of being connected to the principal. Once the child hits high school, they are already on their career track and there is not much room for goofing off or failing. Once you are out of college, you don't go back, you have a profession and then you retire...period. College is free, but you only have so much time to get in, get your education and get out. No second chances. YOu don't even have the option of going back and paying for it yourself, you just don't go back, or you become a foriegn student in America...the land of 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances.







Last year, when my husband would go on job interviews, they wanted all of his transcripts, asked tons of personal questions and were all confused that he went to school to be a civil engineer, but was working in software.







: You just don't get educated in something there and then do something completely different....well, not often.

So, it's not to bash France, but just to point out that there are things that aren't so perfect about their system and it's a trade-off. I prefer the personal freedoms in the U.S., but it really was reassuring in France to know that any medical problems would be affordable to treat. So, you hear all these things about how screwed up we are here...and they're true, but that doesn't mean that it's better on the other side.

So, is your patriotism feeling better?LOL
Lisa


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## chaoticzenmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
Remind me what is great about this country.

I guess maybe part of the problem is that when I grew up, it was all the USA is the best...it was all about being better, stronger...BETTER!

Why do many people risk their lives to get here...people who aren't Americans...

What's great about here is that you REALLY can be anything you want to be. You can start a business if you want, you can work 2 jobs if you want, you can redefine yourself over and over again. It's something that you don't realize until you are somewhere and you see how trapped people are. Women in some countries cannot get jobs during their child-bearing years and have to send in pictures along with their job applications.

In some other countries, you are who you are and you cannot change and if you tried, people around you wouldn't let you.

Yeah, I wish that we protested more and were less selfish, but I understand it. We don't want to work hard here, we're lazy and spoiled







But when we do want to do something, we can.


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## aprilushka

I have lived in other countries and while I would happily live in Canada, the UK or Sweden for example, I know that it wouldn't necessarily make my life instantly better (I happen to just really enjoy being there). I would point out it's actually not that easy to move to another country. THey have visa regimes and getting the legal right to work and live in another country (even Canda) is often not worth the trouble, or the lifestyle choice you have to make (hence why I am still in the US).


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## diamond lil

Lived in Sweden for a short while. Their health care is free, but waiting for an appointment was ridiculous. The Swedes I lived with thought the US was the health-care utopia when they were students here.


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## Mackenzie

I plan on leaving at some point and the reason is that my family cannot be whole in this country and for that, we should be ashamed. Family values my ass.


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## delfuego

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
Remind me what is great about this country.


This country is not great without great people.

It is the rampant apathy of the population that is destroying our country. If you cannot find a reason to feel proud of the land and culture that has shaped you, then shape it into something you _can_ be proud of!


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Lived in Sweden for a short while. Their health care is free, but waiting for an appointment was ridiculous. The Swedes I lived with thought the US was the health-care utopia when they were students here.

I've had a similar experience in the Netherlands. It's free (or very affordable if you're above the income level), but I can barely ever get help--my doctor's office answers the phone 1 hour/day and not at all on weekends. So we always end up in the emergency clinic. And I find the level of care way below what we got in the U.S. (except with birth--then it's WAY better here).

But, you'll never be without some coverage here.


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## Blu Razzberri

As someone said above, you need to take back your country. Nothing is solved by running away. You need to get angry enough to start a group of people who take issue with the way things are. One issue at a time you can create a newer and better future. Start with the issue that's most important and use the power of the internet to find a way to gather a crowd and stage protests. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Trust me, other countries have problems too. As a Canadian, I've thought about finding somewhere else to live too, but when it comes down to it, every country has problems. Growing up in this country, I've learned about it's policies, procedures, laws and systems. Understanding puts me that much closer to effectuating change. You have an advantage in the US...use it.


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## Blu Razzberri

One more thing..... people above are talking about "free" healthcare in other countries. It's not really "free". We pay through the nose here in taxes (*) to have a good healthcare system where doctors were accessible to everyone regardless of income status. This never really was an issue, except lately, our taxes are going up and our healthcare coverage is going down. (for example, eye exams used to be covered, but it's no longer the case....but we havn't seen a tax cut because of it!). Our government has made a MESS of our healthcare system. They've made a mess of our schools too.

The only positive things that I can think of that's come out in terms of health lately is that Midwives are now covered by OHIP (healthcare) whereas they never used to be.....but this was largely based on the major doctor shortage here.

(*) When I say "pay through the nose"; I mean, general and sales tax in Ontario is a whopping total of 14%....which means everytime I buy a $1 item, I'm paying $1.14 for it. This is on top of property tax and income tax.


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## Julz6871

The universal healthcare is a double edged sword. If one were instituted, taxes would skyrocket! The way our government spends money and plays political battles with our children's public education. Teachers are paid crap, and doctors and nurses would be paid crap too. So I see paying my PPO insurance in lieu of paying extra in taxes and I get a choice in providers, treatment, appointment times etc. Docs and nurses get to make a solid living and technology flourishes. The real question is the lesser of two evils:taxes and government pawns or health insurance?

Also, I live a healthy lifestyle non-smoking, went organic a while back etc. I kind of feel like how is it fair if we are all paying taxes into a huge pot and the person who doesn't take care of themselves uses way more of the system and I have to wait for a physical? Just playing devil's advocate. I honestly cannot think of a good solution.


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## Blu Razzberri

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
...I see paying my PPO insurance in lieu of paying extra in taxes and I get a choice in providers, treatment, appointment times etc. ....taxes and government pawns or health insurance?









I'm angry at your statement Julz. Do you understand insurance in the US?? People who are born with common health problems are being denied access to insurance (and if they're covered, they're paying INSANE prices). I'm glad for you that your family is born healthy for your to care healthily for them, but this isn't the case for everyone. People who desperately need treatment (for problems not caused by anything they've done) are being sent home to die. Emergency rooms are not allowed to turn patients away whether they have insurance or not, and the emergency rooms are being clogged with clinic-treatable problems and making it harder for everyone (including the insured) to get proper care. This hardly seems like a functional system!!

In Canada, (before our healthcare system started to seriously fall apart); we had the liberty of choosing our healthcare provider; appointment times and treatments. The only thing that has changed (due to doctor shortage) is the ability to change doctor's easily. I still call my doctor when my baby's sick and they fit me in right away. I still tell my doctor I don't take meds unless absolutely necessary and come to every appointment with a checklist and information; and my doctor still listens. The system can be functional and serve everyone; as long as it's headed up by a responsible government.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
...Also, I live a healthy lifestyle non-smoking, went organic a while back etc. I kind of feel like how is it fair if we are all paying taxes into a huge pot and the person who doesn't take care of themselves uses way more of the system and I have to wait for a physical?...

When you have universal healthcare, there is more put into promoting healthy lifestyles. For example, the CDN government recognizes that smokers put serious undue strain on the healthcare system; and has responded by slowly jacking up the price of cigarettes (you can expect to pay roughly $10 after tax for a pack of 24 here now). This has propted waves of people to quit and therefore become healthier. There is focus on environmental wellness and cleaning up the air. This benefits everyone. There are cash bonuses for taking up more physical activities (preventing things like obesity and heart problems). There are tax rebates to promote healthier living. Despite the problems with our healthcare system here, Canada has made great strides in becoming overall healthier as a country. Universal healthcare opens up a world of possibilities for good change.


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## diamond lil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
As someone said above, you need to take back your country. Nothing is solved by running away. You need to get angry enough to start a group of people who take issue with the way things are. One issue at a time you can create a newer and better future. Start with the issue that's most important and use the power of the internet to find a way to gather a crowd and stage protests. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Trust me, other countries have problems too. As a Canadian, I've thought about finding somewhere else to live too, but when it comes down to it, every country has problems. Growing up in this country, I've learned about it's policies, procedures, laws and systems. Understanding puts me that much closer to effectuating change. You have an advantage in the US...use it.


True!!!


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## bluetoes

Choosing between one country or another is really a lesser of two evils. I know I have lived as an adult in two countries. We plan to leave the US in 5 years or so so our son can grow up with more family where we think is a better place to raise child although no utopia.

The health care thing really scares us too. I know it is pessimistic but I don't think there will ever be enough change to make us happy here. The politics even amongst the left are too right wing for us, particularly socially, it's just too frustrating. The culture of debt and materialism makes me crazy and while we know better I don't want my child to grow up expecting what the culture seems to be telling children to expect (see My Sweet 16 for an example).

I'm not going to lie to you. We make a good living and have a nice house with a swimming pool with the weather to use it. We'll be moving to a tiny house and pay a fortune for it. We're going to complain about the weather, the price of things, and want to hang ourselves over the traffic... On the bright side we'll have 4-5 weeks of paid vacation that is ingrained in the culture we should take versus here where people look at you funny for expecting to get days off.

But we're lucky - we have an option and family where we plan to move to. I don't know if I would consider it if I knew no one and had to start over. I'm a dual national so we don't have visa issues to deal with.


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## Whisper

With all due respect to everyone who has posted saying that every country has its problems and the US has its advantages type-of-sentiment, I really need help understanding WHAT those advantages are.

I mean, for some countries that I compare to it's obvious that they do not share the freedoms we do.

And I absolutely know that it would NOT be easy to move somewhere else. Maybe not even possible. PLUS you have to live in that place for a time before you obtain citizenship...and in that meantime, what if I became ill? There are many considerations, many, many questions and I would have to want to do it badly to jump through all the hoops.

BUT I know the rhetoric I grew up with about the USA...even the rhetoric I STILL believed as a young adult. People kill themselves to get to the US, as just one thing people say/believe/do....WHY?

It seems like the only reason is because here, if you can get the whole pie, you can almost keep the whole pie and so people risk their lives for the possibility of getting it...

One thing I wonder: are we more compassionate here? If even forcibly so? My oldest dd is currently in Italy studying with her college. She said the polizia told them that first night that if they are approached by a gypsy woman or child, simply shove them out of the way. If it is a man, do not shove.

Also: the same polizia told the women that Italian women will treat them as if they do not exist. If an Italian woman sees you lying in the street bleeding, they will walk over you!







:

Now is this "polizia" a nut-case? Or does he speak the truth? And even as I say that, about "us" being more compassionate...think of all the police brutality here. Maybe we're just not overt about it most of the time...we keep it repressed.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY I SHOULD LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!!!!

I am waiting for Linus to get up on a darkened stage with his blanket and make a poignant speech about America.

Linus? Are you out there?

[Note my American pop-culture point-of-reference and validity: Charlie Brown character. _Good grief!_]


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## newcastlemama

I am not sure really what you want to hear, but here it is:

Lisa talked about what the big advantage is here in the USA--it seems to be summed up in _freedom_. You can start college, quit, start a business, go back to college ect. For example, I have a Belgian friend and the way I understand it is that is you flunk a semester in college you are DONE and that is it. I also understand that you go full time and have to stay on their scheldule.

In another country you can legally be discriminated for your looks for jobs. I know there is racism/sexism ect in America, but at least there are legal protections against it as far as jobs, housing ect go.

I appreciate that we have freedom to practive the religion we choose. I am glad that I don't get jailed for handing out Bibles. I have freedom of speech and can stand on a sidewalk and protest. I like that I can say I don't like my politcal leaders.

I also like that I can have a homebirth if I want (in CALIF anyway) and not get my kids vaxed. I can also own a gun so that I can protect my family from others (and the govt if things got crazy).

You seem to be the most upset about the current health care system in the US. I would encourage you to get involves in chaging that if you are passionate about it.

I did a google search and here is an article written by an immigrant to America:
_What's Great About America_
by Dinesh D'Souza
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Pol...osophy/fp1.cfm
I skimmed it a little and it seems good. (I intend to read it later)

I have my issues with USA too, but this this is a great country and it is worth my time to strive to make it better. Nothing on earth is perfect though and I have accpeted that.

I am not trying to be snarky, but if you come to the conclusion that this country is not worth the effort and you would be better off/be happier somewhere else, then I would move too. I don't know you pesonally so please don't take it that way, but it seems like I know so many Americans who complain about the US, never get involved in changing it, and then glamourize other countries that they never move to. I just think if it was that bad there would be more people leaving and less people coming.

Best wishes,
Jen


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## CarsonBookworm

DH and I have talked and planned to move to another country for some time. Not because we're altogether dissatisfied with life here in the USA, but because of religious and ideological reasons.


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## SugarAndSun

From my point of view:

You can say things like the original poster and there are no repercussions.

If you want help, you can unusually get it.

There are people all over the country advocating for your rights as you are complaining.

There is a HUGE amount of generosity... in both the public and private sectors.

It is beautiful!

Our educational system is open to all (even if flawed).

I would urge you to consider the conditions under which most people in the world live. I feel so lucky, always. However, that does not mean that we do not strive to improve things and remain critical of problems.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi


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## bluetoes

You know I am really stumped when people talk about how we have so much freedom in the US as if doesn't exist anywhere else. I have lived in other countries and I was perferctly free there to do and say what I wanted as much as I would be here. With the exception of having a gun which isn't of any interest to me anyway.

It makes me giggle and think of those people who say 'they hate us because of our freedom' as the reason why anyone in the world might have some issue with the US and its foreign policy.

The best reason to live in the US is if you're part of the lucky set that have good jobs, salaries, and a cushy life. The husband and I have a very nice life. we love the conveniences and having a washing machine that works so quickly and is so big to give an example. But it's about weighing priorities.


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## Julz6871

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 







I'm angry at your statement Julz. Do you understand insurance in the US?? People who are born with common health problems are being denied access to insurance (and if they're covered, they're paying INSANE prices). I'm glad for you that your family is born healthy for your to care healthily for them, but this isn't the case for everyone. People who desperately need treatment (for problems not caused by anything they've done) are being sent home to die. Emergency rooms are not allowed to turn patients away whether they have insurance or not, and the emergency rooms are being clogged with clinic-treatable problems and making it harder for everyone (including the insured) to get proper care. This hardly seems like a functional system!!

In Canada, (before our healthcare system started to seriously fall apart); we had the liberty of choosing our healthcare provider; appointment times and treatments. The only thing that has changed (due to doctor shortage) is the ability to change doctor's easily. I still call my doctor when my baby's sick and they fit me in right away. I still tell my doctor I don't take meds unless absolutely necessary and come to every appointment with a checklist and information; and my doctor still listens. The system can be functional and serve everyone; as long as it's headed up by a responsible government.

When you have universal healthcare, there is more put into promoting healthy lifestyles. For example, the CDN government recognizes that smokers put serious undue strain on the healthcare system; and has responded by slowly jacking up the price of cigarettes (you can expect to pay roughly $10 after tax for a pack of 24 here now). This has propted waves of people to quit and therefore become healthier. There is focus on environmental wellness and cleaning up the air. This benefits everyone. There are cash bonuses for taking up more physical activities (preventing things like obesity and heart problems). There are tax rebates to promote healthier living. Despite the problems with our healthcare system here, Canada has made great strides in becoming overall healthier as a country. Universal healthcare opens up a world of possibilities for good change.


I do understand the US healthcare system....i even have a masters in health service administration. I also understand the pitfalls of both ways. I think capitalism is the lesser of two evils. What about all those who work for health insurance companies who would be laid off.....they won't be paying taxes until they find another job so more for everyone else to pay. What about the nurses doctors would no longer be able to afford when the government cuts their pay? People who are born with disabilities in America are covered by the government. They are afforded therapy, healthcare, preschool etc. If a medical mistake ruins your life, in the US you can sue. ER's cannot turn away emergencies. If it is not an emergency there are community clinics that are free or income adjusted. The poor are offered medicaid. (medicaid reimbursements are low-sometimes don't even cover the cost of the product ie IUD's, and don't always cover the latest technology). I know people in my family who have brand new cars, a very nice house, digital cable on their plasma screen and NO health insurance. I drive a 2000, have a regular house, and health insurance. Often those uninsured do so as a matter of priority.

Certainly, not always the case, but more prevalent than not. Universal healthcare is NOT the only or best answer. I am thinking more of a hybrid between the two. Raise taxes to increase the amount of people covered by medicaid while offering choices for the rest of us. Not perfect, but nothing is. As far as the government promoting wellness, have you seen an average public school cafeteria!??? My eldest gets her lunch packed cause no way is she buying pizza and fries everyday. Governments are about the bottme line and prevention often takes a lot more time, and people with acute illness have more immediate risk and will be ushered to the front of the line.

Sorry for the TJ. Back to the original poster, there are many pros and cons to every decision. I have lived in two countries, British West Indies, and I prefer the US and the US healthcare system. Convenience, family, lifestyle, easy traveling, CHOICES!


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## UUMom

If folks are thinking of moving to another country, I think they should be suppoorted. I've lived in various places and I learned a lot.

It's great to want to experience other places. Get a passprt, start traveling, and make yourself attractive to other countires. Many need certain professions more than others. Find out who needs you.who wants you.

Many countries are difficult to emmigrate to, although not impossible. Places like Sweeden and Switerland are especially difficult, although not totally impossible. Some southern European countries are experiencing a negative population growth and those countries might be easier to emmigrate to. It's worth a shot, and I think all people should expand their home boundaries You don't have to stay in the country of your birth if there is somewhere else to go -- we in the US are free to do so. I would also think some Asian and Russian countries would be open to many of us. There are many cool things in the world to do!

All countries benefit greatly when their citizens educate themselves beyond their own horizons, and begin to understand the world/

So, first thing-- get a passport! (It takes awhile now). Second thing, read!! Research! Third thing-- don't be scared and apply to the country that interests you. Just do it! It's *very* cool to travel and experience the world by living in other countries/continents.


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## Blu Razzberri

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
What about all those who work for health insurance companies who would be laid off.....What about the nurses doctors would no longer be able to afford when the government cuts their pay?....

So what? So a bunch of people are forced to find other work and doctor's *might* take a paycut (though probably not). Life goes on. But life doesn't go on for the hundreds of people who die because they can't afford medical care.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
People who are born with disabilities in America are covered by the government. They are afforded therapy, healthcare, preschool etc.

Those born with disabilities may be covered, but what about things like athsma, diabetes and other conditions of the like that require daily medication? Those things are not covered, and those people are considered expense to an insurance agency. As a result, they're denied health insurance, or made to pay ridiculous amounts! With a healthcare system, it's like universal insurance where nobody is turned away, and everyone gets care. There may be side-effect problems, but those will be worked out over time and that's how you put a country on the path of change. I don't even watch the news and I know the US is going to sh*t. Something's gotta give down there!...and soon!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
If a medical mistake ruins your life, in the US you can sue.

Universal healthcare doesn't excuse a doctor from being held responsible for malpractice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
(Insurance agency employees that lose their jobs)....won't be paying taxes until they find another job so more for everyone else to pay....ER's cannot turn away emergencies....there are...clinics that are free or income adjusted....The poor are offered medicaid.

I know, and like I said, that's part of the problem. Going to the ER costs far more than going to a doctor. ER's are clogged with people who don't have insurance, and that costs alot of money....money that has to come from somewhere. That negative far outweighs the short term unemployment cost of the insurance workers. Also, alot of these people would qualify to process healthcare claims under a universal healthcare system, so they could be offered the positions first, to lessen the unemployment impact.

Besides, there might be free clinics, low-income clinics, medicaid and the ER; but what if someone without insurance needs a life-saving heart transplant? What if that someone was your child and you didn't have insurance? Would you feel different then?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
...medicaid reimbursements are low-sometimes don't even cover the cost of the product ie IUD's...









: This exact statement is one of the very reasons I think the US healthcare system is a joke. I can't believe anyone defends a system that's so obviously messed up!! I mean, seriously! Of all things, they really should cover IUD's so women who are already too broke to afford healthcare can prevent pregnancy and further strain on their personal lives and the system.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
I know people in my family who have brand new cars, a very nice house, digital cable on their plasma screen and NO health insurance. I drive a 2000, have a regular house, and health insurance. Often those uninsured do so as a matter of priority.










Are you KIDDING ME?? Most people do so as a matter of priority, yes. But not because they're prioritizing CARS over their health. People who do qualify for health insurance but don't have it; don't have it because they have to cover the basic necessities without room for much else!! The people who have all kinds of fancy things and no insurance, probably have enough to cover most of their healthcare costs, and don't feel the need to have insurance (which is also silly, but a whole other topic).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
I am thinking more of a hybrid between the two. Raise taxes to increase the amount of people covered by medicaid while offering choices for the rest of us.

But didn't you just say that Medicaid doensn't even cover logical things like an IUD, nor does it utilize technological advances...? Do you think it's fair to raise everyone's taxes so more people can have less quality care? If you're raising taxes, that means you're raising EVERYONE'S taxes, and therefore EVERYONE should have a right to equal care.

And again, what if YOU were the mother on Medicaid who's baby needed a life-saving heart transplant? Is that "sorry, too bad; now please move aside because we're busy treating people who can afford to save their children" ..??????

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
As far as the government promoting wellness, have you seen an average public school cafeteria!???

I get the feeling you didn't even read what I wrote the first time. I said that "When you have universal healthcare, there is more put into promoting healthy lifestyles." Since your country _doesn't_ have universal healthcare, obviously the whole thing about the government promoting wellness doesn't apply.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 
....I prefer the US and the US healthcare system. Convenience, family, lifestyle, easy traveling, CHOICES!

But only if you can afford it.







:


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## Silvercrest79

......

And again, what if YOU were the mother on Medicaid who's baby needed a life-saving heart transplant? Is that "sorry, too bad; now please move aside because we're busy treating people who can afford to save their children" ..??????
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I get the feeling you didn't even read what I wrote the first time. I said that "When you have universal healthcare, there is more put into promoting healthy lifestyles." Since your country _doesn't_ have universal healthcare, obviously the whole thing about the government promoting wellness doesn't apply.

But only if you can afford it.







:
[/QUOTE]

Everything you said is all so stunningly true. Especially "But only if you can afford it."









For us to have insurance through my husband's work the premiums would take almost half his check and that is just for the most basic plan (no eye or dental and a HUGE co-pay). So we don't have insurance.







:


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## Julz6871

Yes, I am saying people prioritize cars over healthcare. People do not want to sacrifice lifestyle for healthcare insurance.....after all there is a chance they may never even need it. Many who are uninsured do so by choice. Even if you cannot afford a premium, it would be responsible to place what you can afford into a special savings account for emergencies.

Universal healthcare proposes that EVERYONE pay MORE taxes for EVERYONE to have LESS healthcare. I am not for that. There are millions in this country who more than adequate healthcare. WHy should they, who already pay taxes to pay more in taxes for something they already have? Many who have medicaid do not pay much if at all in taxes. If we can cover more in medicaid that would take a burden off many Americans and the hospitals who are losing money treating them while not increasing taxes too much and taking away our medical choices and advaincing technology. I point out medicaid's pitfalls because it will not IMPROVE if the government has to cover everyone! It would potentially only get worse. Less coverage over the years, the newest technologies would take years to get covered. Millions would be unemployed.............the fallout is just too much.

Doctors in Canada make far less than docs in the US. I am not saying they are in it for the money, but they give up years and years working 90 hours a week taking out student loans and getting paid 30K a year as residents. They get a late start at earning income and need to offset loans and build retirement. I worked as an LVN after high school. When I was getting my Master's I had BCBS that I paid 120 a month for. Not long ago either and I have high cholesterol and have taken antidepressants. And I am a woman of childbearing age. And while docs are not excused from malpractice you cannot sue and get the millions it will cost to take care of a major mistake. In the UK medical students do invasive procedure because the liability isnt high. No thank you.

Changes need to take place but Im not allowing my government to take care of my healthcare when they dont take care of our teachers as it is. They are about the bottom line. As is everything in the US.


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## Kyriana

Neither me or my fiance have health insurance because the premiums through his job would take half of his paycheck and we cannot pay our bills as it is. I am a SAHM because 3 years ago we discovered daycare would take more that half of what I would make so we decided that we would rather have a parent raise our children as opposed to a stranger. We have chosen our children over a more financially comfortable life. We have to prioritize which bills to pay (electric,gas, car pymt, car insurance etc) as a result.

If I were to work, at best we would only have an extra $100 a month after paying daycare and that still won't get all of our bills paid on time.

My point is that I am not choosing a new car or house over health insurance. We simply cannot afford it.

That being said, I cannot say that I agree with a national health plan either. At least not in the long run.


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## Julz6871

Man, I totally relate. I stay home with my 4 kids and one on the way because daycare would have taken my paycheck. But the fact that we have insurance is not because we are indipendly wealthy ya know. We sacrifice and I clip coupons and buy store brand and shop at garage sales and craigslist. We have two cars 7-10 years old and one small TV. Would I love new things? Of course. Everything is a trade off. Trust me, some days I would love to work, but mothering is a sacrifice.

Another example of how our government does not take care of our health with the money we already give them is that in 1996 they capped the number of physician residency spots. So the same number doctors are in residency in 2007 as there were in 1996. Can you say doctor shortage? And in recent years they have cut another 5 million from residency programs. If you think the amount taken out of paychecks for health insurance premiums, just wait til you see the amount the government will take out to cover every9one in the US. Logically, it will take at least as much as private companies require. And if not in income tax, then property tax and a national sales tax on top of state sales tax. So every item will require 14-18% tax. People will buy overseas and companies will outsource hurting Americans more. So people will buy less or spend elsewhere and less will go into the government's pocket so income and property taxes will increase. Other budgets will be cut to ad to the healthcare budget. The military and congress's salaries won't be I bet! They will siphon money from schools, roads, after school programs, and university research grants. Universities will hurt for that and raise tuition........the fallout is endless. We need to improve the current system, but a total shift would be costly in many ways. America is based on choices.


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## ehock76

I think everyone who is sick of this country should take a look at 2008 Presidential Candidate, Ron Paul. He is the only hope for saving our Constitution and keeping us from the horrors of fascism. He is against the war, against the Patriot Act and has done a lot of work in Congress to try to expose the problems of vaccinations. He is a libertarian who happens to be running as a republican. I know he can turn things around. He doesn't take special interest money, so he is running a totally grassroots campaign. Gaining a lot of support with homeschoolers and those who live a less traditional lifestyle. I highly recommend everyone look into him.


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## the_lissa

It is funny that people think the U.S. has more choice.

My choices in Canada are not limited whatsoever.

However, everyone I know in the U.S. who is fortunate enough to have insurance has severe limitations on their choices. Their insurance company will only cover certain doctors, certain hospitals, certain drugs,e tc.

I thought debate wasn't allowed in the activism forum.


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## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It is funny that people think the U.S. has more choice.

My choices in Canada are not limited whatsoever.

However, everyone I know in the U.S. who is fortunate enough to have insurance has severe limitations on their choices. Their insurance company will only cover certain doctors, certain hospitals, certain drugs,e tc.

I thought debate wasn't allowed in the activism forum.

Well, you have it only partly correct.

The problem in the US is some people get a ton, and some people get squat. It totally depends on the company you work for.

FI, my first two homebirths were 100% covered. Our adoption fees were even partially coverd through my dh's insurance plan. With our 4th child, and a different company, homebirths were not covered, so we paid some out- of- pocket, although insurance covered all lab work 100%. I never paid a dime for anything other than the midwife's time. But still, that was a couple of thousand. Which I happily paid for my freedom to choose. It would have been nice to have a free birth in a hospital, but, um, there was just **no** way I would have a healthy baby in a hospital.

Here's the thing-- all plans vary. In the plan where my homebirths were covered-- and homeopathy and chiropratic care were also 100% covered-- I could choose **anyone* I wanted-- it didn't matter who. Witch docotors, Harvard Medical--whatever. Those days were awesome. However, dental care wasn't covered 100%. We were allowed 2 cleanings per year, period. Fillings were not covered, and nothing else was covered. Thankfully we have good teeth.

With my current coverage, I would have to pay for a homebirth midwife (although not a hospital midwife, and I could choose from a large number of hospital midwives, which I would never do), but I now have 90% dental coverage for *any* procedure. Which includes orthodontia. I could choose any orthodontist I wanted, but I can't choose a homebirth midwife. Breast reduction is most likely covered. But not a homebirth! lol








It's crazy, but at least I haven't had to reley on an HMO since we were grad students. That *sucked* . Kaiser Permenete (KP) (HMO-- which is what you are referring to) is the devil.







HMOs are the US version of universal health care, and it msotly sucks. I want nothing to do with that system, having experienced it first hand for a number of years. I believe in universal health care, but I pray the US doesn't decide to go with the KP system I experienced.

Sadly, the better your job, the better your health coveraage.

It's not an equitable system, but if you work for a 'good' company, you have total freedom of choice at bargain prices. The US Senate, fi, has free access to any health care they desire.

All I am saying is that while US health care is ***Highly*** inequitable, health care varies, and many of the lucky ones can have whatever they want covered. Which is wrong, of course. I just wanted to give you more info about our glorious health care system.


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## joybird

When discussing a national health care plan and the taxes required to fund such a system, it is worth talking about where our tax dollars ARE going, since they are not being circulated to us as citizens in any meaningful way. Yes, we have free public schools, but the majority of American adults cannot find the UK on a map. So what are people being taught? How to be good 'workers' for multinational corporations and good little consumers?
Also worth considering is the fact that corporations are not taxed at even a fraction of the percentage that citizens are, even though the profits they reap are unfathomable to the average American.
I have to ask, if we can afford to spend billions of dollars every week killing Iraqi men, women and children, isn't the question rather HOW we spend our tax dollars instead of whether or not we spend them?


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## Papai

While I don't think Universal Health Care alone will solve all of our problems, I can't help but wonder why it can't be government-run just like our schools, post office and other services.

Just like we have public schools and private schools, we could have public health insurance, public doctors and also have private doctors and private hospitals, where those who have money can pay for it. But the public health services would still be available to all.


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## AlexisT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
While I don't think Universal Health Care alone will solve all of our problems, I can't help but wonder why it can't be government-run just like our schools, post office and other services.

Just like we have public schools and private schools, we could have public health insurance, public doctors and also have private doctors and private hospitals, where those who have money can pay for it. But the public health services would still be available to all.

this would actually be a really terrible idea. it's what we have in the UK. What you get is crappy health care for everyone, and great health care for people who can jump the queue.

I'm in favour of universal coverage; I'm not in favour of having the government run the whole system. I'm divided on a Medicare type system (government pays, but does not provide).

BTW, don't think of universal coverage as some kind of panacea. There is never infinite money and people will always be denied treatment.


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## TheTruth

You cant trust every aspect of Michael Moore's movies...


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## diamond lil

Julz6871 said:


> Yes, I am saying people prioritize cars over healthcare. People do not want to sacrifice lifestyle for healthcare insurance.....after all there is a chance they may never even need it. Many who are uninsured do so by choice. Even if you cannot afford a premium, it would be responsible to place what you can afford into a special savings account for emergencies.
> 
> This is so true. I know people like this. They have huge McMansions, drive brand new cars, take exotic vacations, kids have all the latest toys, but their family does not have healthcare insurance or life insurance for that matter.


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## Hollycrand

I am reading this discussion with interest (I too though that debate wasn't allowed in the Activism forum...).

Is there any reason why there is such apathy in both the US and Canada to protesting and 'fighting' to get improved healthcare for everyone? In many of the previous posts it seems like a lot of you feel that the government will not change and doesn't want to change for the good of the people, so why do anything to change it?
In the US, it seems to me there is the 'every man for himself' attitude...even more so when it comes to healthcare. I grew up in the US (California native) and was under Kaiser Permanente all while growing up (I guess some say that it is the closest organisation to universal health care exisiting in the US).
Perhaps this is my 12 years experience in Europe talking, but if you can't trust the government to help its citizens and give help to those who need it (clothing, shelter, nourishment), then why do you think government should exist?

There have been so many great movements in the US/Canada that I have seen start from just a few active people that have a great idea or want to change things. Like the universal breastfeeding symbol. Like a push for midwife recognition in several states/provinces. There are many others that I can't think of right now.

I think we should think of what we can do in the US/Canada to improve the health care situation. Because we can 'run away' to other countries all we want (and then find out that there are problems in those countries as well) or we can try and make things better where we live.
Any ideas?
I mean, we all came to read this thread in the activism forum...it means we are somewhat remotely interested in Activism, right?


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## RomanGoddess

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
I feel we will NEVER eliminate those big health insurance companies and provide health care for all.







:

Is it really better in the other industrialized countries?

No country has a perfect health care system. I am Canadian and have lived in France for 5 years. We just moved to Italy last September. In Canada, everyone has health care but if you need surgery, you will have to wait months and months to get it. Middle class people in the United States generally have better health care than middle class people in Canada. In France, there are no waiting lists (much better, IMHO) BUT it is not entirely free. Usually, you need supplementary health insurance because doctors have the right to charge more than what the state will pay them and most doctors DO charge more. Drugs there are super cheap but as a result, France is the most overmedicalised country in the world (my understanding is that French people consume more prescription drugs per capital than even Americans).


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## Nikki98

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julz6871* 

Universal healthcare proposes that EVERYONE pay MORE taxes for EVERYONE to have LESS healthcare. I am not for that. There are millions in this country who more than adequate healthcare. WHy should they, who already pay taxes to pay more in taxes for something they already have? Many who have medicaid do not pay much if at all in taxes.

Totally agree with this. If we had universal healthcare taxes will definitely increase, and it will be middle class Americans that will suffer financially (since those who are poor couldn't pay into the system and the very rich are rich afterall so taxes don't affect them to much). I really don't think we want a socialistic style of healthcare do we?

Yes this country has flaws of course, but the great thing about this country is the chance for opportunities. That is why people risk there very own lives to come here. This country has many resources to help people. I do not see many people trying to go to countries that are more socialistic in nature, like they are trying to come to this country. Here in my city there is a health care facility/clinic that see patients with no insurance, they have sliding scale and even some free services. Its a great resource. Also within the community there are social services (thru the religious and/or private sector) that are willing to help those who need healthcare. So yes while the U.S. isn't perfect, _there are resources_-that is the key.

I think most of the problem truthfully lies with the insurance companies and their policies. Insurance companies don't want to reimburse doctors for certain types of care, thus keeping money in their pocket (the insurance companies). So doctors are force to do less with less and still acheive the same outcomes. This isn't fair. Also many insurance companies have lobbyists that try to influence the direction of healthcare in our country. So perhaps that is where the focus should be on the insurance industry.

So while I don't think universal healthcare is an absolute answer, I do believe that there are some things that could be done to improve the level of care in this country. Thankfully we even have a system that can be improved-many live without such systems.


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## RomanGoddess

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
Totally agree with this. If we had universal healthcare taxes will definitely increase, and it will be middle class Americans that will suffer financially (since those who are poor couldn't pay into the system and the very rich are rich afterall so taxes don't affect them to much). I really don't think we want a socialistic style of healthcare do we?


Americans already spend more on health care per capita than any other country in the world. The only difference is that Americans pay their money to private companies instead of to a state insurance fund. A public health system would SAVE you money.


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## lilith_382

I've never lived in France or Canada, but I am a British citizen living in the US. When I was little I remeber the doctor coming to my house when I had a tummyache. My dental and ortho treatment was free as was my parent's.
I had my first child here in America, and we didn't have health insurance. My father paid for the birth, so I am lucky not to have all that debt. At the age of 2 weeks my son had some sort of infection. I still did not have health insurance, but I medicare. I called the only clinic in town that would accept medicare, and was told that the earliest appoinment was 2 weeks from then. He was very sick so I paid out the $90 for a doctor visit elsewhere.
There was a point when my son was about 14 months old where I was working 2 jobs. 5.30am-2.30pm at one coffee shop, and 7pm-2am at another coffee shop/bar. I didn't see my son. I worked and I slept. At one point I got an infection in my tooth. It was bad. I was in excruciating pain for days. I finally went to the ER where they prescribed antibiotics and painkillers. I still remember the grand total at the pharmacy, $120. We had to put off paying one bill in order to pay another. We were behind on rent and now had to pay for the meds and the inevitable bills for the ER visit. The credit card was almost maxed out and my husband and I hated each other.
When my daughter was born my insurance company elected not to pay my midwife the nintey percent they would have paid any number of OBs because she was an "out of network provider." This was hard on us, but we felt it was important to have a midwife. My daughter was walking before they finally paid her their share. As a result, the relationship I did have with my midwife is now destroyed.
I love our pediatrician, but there is no way she is trecking out to our house at 8pm on a Saturday because one of my chldren has a raging fever. I have found myself in the ER waiting for 3 hours as a consequence.
My husband works for an OIL COMPANY. This is my ultimate shame, but it's the truth. Why? Because we made the mistake of getting pregnant as teenagers. Who was going to help us exactly??? Rig workers get paid more because their work is DANGEROUS. Living in the states, this was our option. I am now slowly making my way through school. The cost and quality of childcare in this country is atrocious, so I depend on my family, like many Americans. My husband can't go to school because he works on a rotation meaning he spends half of his life away from home, and away from our kids. Nice. The land of 2nd 3rd and 4th chances??!! I don't think so. The idea that we all have an equal chance is a myth. People buy into it, so they can feel better about ignoring the problem. People are dying while we turn a blind eye. Dying by the thousands. No, it's not your kid, but it's someone elses. Some kid in Iraq, burned, mutilated, violated. Some kid in America being denied treatment because her parent's can't pay.
I love that I don't have to vaccinate my kids, and that I have a choice of hospitals and birthing centers. But these are really miniscule, insignificant bull*** issues. I am so embarrassed today to be here. I am a part of this and I am ashamed. I am however, lucky. I can get my family out. I once watched Bill Maher comment on the Americans who are immigrating to Canada. He stated that if they were real Americans that they would stay and fight. I will do my best to make the world a better place from wherever I am, but I choose to fight for my kids, and I believe that means I better start packing.


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## lilith_382

How exactly do we influence the insurance companies? The lobbyists for the pharmecutical and insurance companies help get our repesentatives elected. These companies have control over our government. "The people" have very little say.


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## amitymama

A reason to learn to love your country: you can't just up-sticks and move to wherever ya fancy, I'm afraid. I wish it were that easy but it's not. So even if you'd love to move to Canada or France, ya' can't unless you have family members who are citizens, you can claim a birthright, or you get offered an approved job there.

I know that's not the topic here but just thought I'd point that out as an FYI.


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## Nikki98

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Americans already spend more on health care per capita than any other country in the world. The only difference is that Americans pay their money to private companies instead of to a state insurance fund. A public health system would SAVE you money.

Point taken. So my next question is how would we feel with the government running the healthcare system? I'm not totally comfortable with this idea. Look at the situation with Social Security.

I don't like what the insurance companies are doing either-they do need some reformation.

Really this is just my opinion, but if we take all competition out of healthcare-how would that work? Would it be a one-size fits all deal? I just don't think that is all that great either. With competition (competition that strives to cater to the patient) the provider (healthcare provider) has a reason to improve, to strive to do better. If we have managed care there would be no reason to improve- thus we need to ask ourselves does public managed care=better quality care?


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## joybird

Regarding the issue of competition, in M Moore's movie he interviews a British doctor who explains how his salary is directly dependent on the quality of care he provides. For example, if he helps patients to quit smoking or lower their blood pressure or improves the health of his patients, he gets more money. So competition is not the only way to assure optimal care. Good doctors get paid more in a socialized medical system. We have no such incentive here. Doctors is the US get paid whatever they charge. Period.


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## Nikki98

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Regarding the issue of competition, in M Moore's movie he interviews a British doctor who explains how his salary is directly dependent on the quality of care he provides. For example, if he helps patients to quit smoking or lower their blood pressure or improves the health of his patients, he gets more money. So competition is not the only way to assure optimal care. Good doctors get paid more in a socialized medical system. We have no such incentive here. Doctors is the US get paid whatever they charge. Period.

Actually not a bad idea, letting physician incomes being dependent on patient outcomes, which would hopefully ensure good care. This type of care caters to the patient needs, which idealistically would happen anyhow-but of course it doesn't. I just worry about our government controlling healthcare, really-then they (the bureaucrats) could start dictating or limiting our choices even more, which to me isn't desirable.


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## Nikki98

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilith_382* 
I love that I don't have to vaccinate my kids, and that I have a choice of hospitals and birthing centers. But these are really miniscule, insignificant bull*** issues.

I do think these are big issues. We have the _choice_ to do such things, so it may seem miniscule now, but what would happen if there was mandatory vaccinations and mandatory hospital births? Would we like that? I could totally (if government health care came to pass) seeing mandatory vaccinations coming into play- especially being tied with the homeland security issues. No one is saying our system is perfect-no way- but to me it comes down to personal freedoms, having as many choices as possible-even in this imperfect system.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
It seems like the only reason is because here, if you can get the whole pie, you can almost keep the whole pie and so people risk their lives for the possibility of getting it...

I find this incredibly insightful. Thank you.


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## Anuska

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
Remind me what is great about this country.

I guess maybe part of the problem is that when I grew up, it was all the USA is the best...it was all about being better, stronger...BETTER!

Why do many people risk their lives to get here...people who aren't Americans...


They risk their lives because they really know what it is like to live in proverty or oppression. Or they feel squashed down by a big governement, overtaxed. Or they are given no mobility. Or they are caught up in ethic or religious strife in their own country. I think there are many many reasons.

I am married to a foreigner, who comes from a very socialized country of Europe, we lived there for awhile yet felt held back in many ways in expression of our wants and needs to raise our children the way we wish. The health care system there dictated virtually all that I must do or don't do to care for my child and kept track of every detail. There was a huge waiting list for my dh to have some needed surgery. I felt big brother there watching me way more then I ever have here in America. Many people like that pure choice to decide how their children will be raised, to vax or not, to home-school or not, to own land or not, to birth as they please, etc. I did not feel I could do any of that in my dh's country.

I found this: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/711923/posts

...... maybe it'll help you find some reason at least a little bit to be proud of the country you live in. Maybe you'll find just one thing.

(written by an immigrant from India).


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## Anuska

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
.

So while I don't think universal healthcare is an absolute answer, I do believe that there are some things that could be done to improve the level of care in this country. Thankfully we even have a system that can be improved-many live without such systems.

Yes I am in agreement with that. If the people rise up and demand better care and less interference things can happen.

In my own state (a progessive one) I have seen much changed in the 20 years I've lived here in regards to homebirth, alternative care (insurances will now cover midwifery, naturpathy, homebirth care, mandatory child health coverage etc). Only because we have gathered together as women and people to demand what we want. Sometimes the change is slow, but it can happen.

We can protest and speak out and demand change and elect representatives that will listen to us. I've lived long enough to see some change. That is a good thing.

(sorry no spell-check today







)


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## Papai

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlexisT* 
this would actually be a really terrible idea. it's what we have in the UK. What you get is crappy health care for everyone, and great health care for people who can jump the queue.

I'm in favour of universal coverage; I'm not in favour of having the government run the whole system. I'm divided on a Medicare type system (government pays, but does not provide).

BTW, don't think of universal coverage as some kind of panacea. There is never infinite money and people will always be denied treatment.

Then what does that say about our education?

We trust the government to educate us but not to take care of our health?

If it's government-funded but not managed by them, who would manage it? Profit-driven businesses have shown they're not trustworthy.


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## lilith_382

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
I do think these are big issues. We have the _choice_ to do such things, so it may seem miniscule now, but what would happen if there was mandatory vaccinations and mandatory hospital births? Would we like that? I could totally (if government health care came to pass) seeing mandatory vaccinations coming into play- especially being tied with the homeland security issues. No one is saying our system is perfect-no way- but to me it comes down to personal freedoms, having as many choices as possible-even in this imperfect system.

Sure, these issues are important to me, but to use them as the argument against national healthcare is ludicrous. Rather, we should strive to devise a national healthcare system that respects such choices. The French are becoming much more open to the idea of midwife assisted births because of the demand. We have to demand the access and the choices for ALL. The way things stand at the moment, a privileged few have all the choices in this country while so many are in a state of despair. In all of my searching and discussion, I have not found one compelling reason to sway me. Not when there are lives at stake.
FYI, most births within the British healthcare system are attended by midwives,and were even back when I was born. Also, I don't know about France, but in Britain we have BUPA. They are a private health insurance company for those of us who desire it, but you won't find many people who disagree that all people deserve a right to adequate healthcare just as they do eduation, police protection, and emergency services.


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## lilith_382

Why do we have to "have faith in" or "love" our country? At some point we will surely see beyond our borders, put away our flags, and go about the business of being human. Even browsing back through this thread I see so much division. My partner said something to me earlier that sent chills down my spine. See, I've been feeling pretty hopeless lately about the state of things. I think there comes a point in everyone's life when they realize that the world they live in is not the one they thought they did, and that's what's been going on with me. I asked him "Where is this revolution?" And he told me about the Romans who thought that if the people were quiet, there would be a revolt, that silence is the calm before the storm. Shhhh... can you hear it?


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## Hollycrand

When you all are talking about the US government, I assume you mean the Federal government, right?
Don't you think that if there is ever some sort of universal health care that will exist that it would be more on a state by state basis? Kind of like what exists in Canada (but I am by no means an expert on the subject).

OT: A pp mentioned that the US Gov would run universal health care into the ground, as they did social security. I think there are fundamental differences in both concepts...social security in most Western countries has collapsed completely, because it is more of a pay now, benefit years later type of scheme.


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## Papai

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hollycrand* 
When you all are talking about the US government, I assume you mean the Federal government, right?
Don't you think that if there is ever some sort of universal health care that will exist that it would be more on a state by state basis? Kind of like what exists in Canada (but I am by no means an expert on the subject).

OT: A pp mentioned that the US Gov would run universal health care into the ground, as they did social security. I think there are fundamental differences in both concepts...social security in most Western countries has collapsed completely, because it is more of a pay now, benefit years later type of scheme.

I imagine it would be run much like our public schools, which are broken down not only by state, but by county.

The public schools in certain counties are better than others. I imagine the same might be true with health care, if it became universal and government-run.


----------



## lilith_382

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hollycrand* 
When you all are talking about the US government, I assume you mean the Federal government, right?
Don't you think that if there is ever some sort of universal health care that will exist that it would be more on a state by state basis? Kind of like what exists in Canada (but I am by no means an expert on the subject).

OT: A pp mentioned that the US Gov would run universal health care into the ground, as they did social security. I think there are fundamental differences in both concepts...social security in most Western countries has collapsed completely, because it is more of a pay now, benefit years later type of scheme.

I'm not sure about the specifics of National Helthcare Plans elsewhere, but it would seem that they are doing a pretty good job in some areas and not such a good job in others. Obviously there are things we can learn from the strengths and weaknesses of other government run healthcare programs. I would imagine that in the US, the programs would be partially state run receiving a certain percent from the federal government. Lucky for us, that means we would have more control within our communities just like we do the school system.
Here in Portland our schools are in trouble. All over the city there are parents and concerned citizens working to make it better. Fortunately, since the schools are facilitated by local government, we have the chance to improve them. Nobody disputes that while the schools are in trouble that we should just privatize education! That would be absurd! When we pay our taxes that go toward public schools we are not paying for our children only. We are paying so that all children might have a chance to be educated. We are paying for the greater good. We pay for the health and welfare of our fellow human beings.


----------



## AlexisT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Then what does that say about our education?

We trust the government to educate us but not to take care of our health?

If it's government-funded but not managed by them, who would manage it? Profit-driven businesses have shown they're not trustworthy.

Well, we do have competition in education. It's just that the government doesn't pay for all your choices. But this is heavily for historical and religious reasons. perhaps it should change as well; I don't know.

I have no objection to a government role in health care provision (heck, they do plenty of it now, directly through things like the VA or indirectly through how they control Medicare and doctors' training). It's a single government run service that I object to. The NHS is the largest employer in Europe. Managing it verges on the impossible, because as an organisation grows, complexity increases exponentially. Moreover, it's increasingly subject to ludicrous government manipulation and targets. Simple example: the government set a target for patients being seen within 48 hours. You know what GP surgeries did? Abolished or hugely restricted routine appointments. In order to meet the 48 hour target, most appointments are now "emergencies": you ring your GP first thing in the morning and get an appointment for that day or the next. Or you get caught in system bottlenecks: they set maximum waits for treatment, but they don't have diagnostic capacity to get you on the list. Or they manipulate the waiting list.

The new GP contract is a joke. In return for giving up £6,000, GPs got rid of all responsibility for after-hours care. Now surgeries are only open weekdays: no evenings or weekends, because it's not in the contract. You want to go to the doctor, you have to take off from work... and if your surgery is oen of the ones that makes it hard to schedule in advance, you're screwed double! If you fall ill out of hours, you have to see the on-call service or go to A&E (emergency). People have died because the out of hours service is so poorly managed. As for the performance targets, they're not very difficult, and they've let doctors rake in the cash.

And there's a middle ground between one-size-fits-all NHS care and the brutal free market. The government can regulate health care and dictate minimums, without actually being the provider.


----------



## Papai

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlexisT* 
Well, we do have competition in education. It's just that the government doesn't pay for all your choices. But this is heavily for historical and religious reasons. perhaps it should change as well; I don't know.

Right, of course the government doesn't pay for all your choices, but I don't think the government should pay for all our choices in health care either. But we do provide a basic level of education to all US citizens and residents, regardless of class or wealth because we value education so highly. My question is: why don't we see health care as equally important?

As I said, we could have public health care available to everybody. For those who can afford it, they could acquire health care from private companies, much like those who can afford it, pay tuition to private schools. I am not advocating the elimination of choice.

Quote:

I have no objection to a government role in health care provision (heck, they do plenty of it now, directly through things like the VA or indirectly through how they control Medicare and doctors' training). It's a single government run service that I object to. The NHS is the largest employer in Europe. Managing it verges on the impossible, because as an organisation grows, complexity increases exponentially. Moreover, it's increasingly subject to ludicrous government manipulation and targets. Simple example: the government set a target for patients being seen within 48 hours. You know what GP surgeries did? Abolished or hugely restricted routine appointments. In order to meet the 48 hour target, most appointments are now "emergencies": you ring your GP first thing in the morning and get an appointment for that day or the next. Or you get caught in system bottlenecks: they set maximum waits for treatment, but they don't have diagnostic capacity to get you on the list. Or they manipulate the waiting list.

The new GP contract is a joke. In return for giving up £6,000, GPs got rid of all responsibility for after-hours care. Now surgeries are only open weekdays: no evenings or weekends, because it's not in the contract. You want to go to the doctor, you have to take off from work... and if your surgery is oen of the ones that makes it hard to schedule in advance, you're screwed double! If you fall ill out of hours, you have to see the on-call service or go to A&E (emergency). People have died because the out of hours service is so poorly managed. As for the performance targets, they're not very difficult, and they've let doctors rake in the cash.

And there's a middle ground between one-size-fits-all NHS care and the brutal free market. The government can regulate health care and dictate minimums, without actually being the provider.
You make some good points. A single-run service could be problematic, especially given the enormity of the US. That's why I said I imagine it would be broken up much like our schools, by state, and consequently by county.


----------



## LukesMum

*Can anyone help me restore my faith in this country?*

Havent read all the posts but as an AMerican who has lived in many other countries let me tell you--we are blessed. You have to remember what america is about. FREEDOM You can actually come here and say these things without someone knocking on your door. RIght now I live in the MIddle East 30 miles from Saudi Arabia. Where I live I have relative freedom but it is illegal to speak against the king! There are things that happen here that no one ever hears about-no freedom of the press. WHen I llived in Singapore the laws were so strict (chewing gum is illegal and it is also illegal to speak against the gov't) it was weird. Being overseas, many times you dont witness things-until you are involved in something and you can say "this would never happen in America"! My European friends pay 60% in taxes for their socialist style healthcare. I strongly dsilike our current administration, our schools and healthcare are a disgrace, americans live in a bubble and shop at WalMart and drive their SUV's with no consideration.....but we also have people like you all who do care and want change. When we come home-Im shocked that I get off the plane to CNN's coverage of Paris Hilton and the season finale of the Sopranos when Hamas and Fatah are in a fierce battl and Im anxious to see what happened in the past 20 hours I was on a plane. Still- I love America!


----------



## the_lissa

Yes but there are many countries that have just as many and sometimes more freedoms than in the U.S.


----------



## LukesMum

Hmmm........dh and I are just trying to figure out who has more freedoms). do you mean like the Netherlands or Denmark which are very accepting!(prostituation and drugs in the Netherlands, homosexuality). We just got back from 2 weeks in Amsterdam- our very favorite place BUT they also have very high taxes and we couldnt afford to live there. Well, not so sure about Amsterdam but definately Denmark. Our Danish friends always complainingg that although they have socialized medicine and great education- their taxes are so high they cant afford to buy cars ( big bike cultures there-not fun in the freezing cold) So- there are trade offs. The crime rate is also pretty high in Amsterdam due to the drug culture. Still, we love living abroad but we value and are proud to be americans. Not always what America does but really what AMerica is supposed to stand for. Call me an idealist--I think I am, but I truly try to see the good and not be overwhelmed by all the negative. I also vote and when Im home am quite politically active. If you want change you have to participate-yes?


----------



## paquerette

It might be cold, but I think not having cars is somewhat of a benefit, too. Just another thing that makes them healthier. I'd take good health care and social programs over being able to afford a car any day.


----------



## Eve80

For the OP:

I don't think the cure for your problem is hearing great things about America. Maybe the better thing would be a good healthy dose of ... responsibility. As someone else said, what can make any country great is great and dedicated citizens.

Maybe you'd feel better if you could volunteer in a cause that you felt was meaningful.


----------



## Little Bear's Mama

I don't think that universal healthcare is the answer, at least not right now. Nothing can be changed until there are more checks and balances in Washington. Lobbyists are running the Country! You can bet your boots that if there were a universal healthcare system, that certain companies would be dictating to us all what we kind of care we received.

Lobbyists already control what kind of information is shared with the public (remember how the formula lobbyists got the breastfeeding awareness campaign watered down, and were suspected of being involved in getting the FDA to send out a warning on the use of domperidone the very same week?). Lobbyists already control what drugs we have access to. Lobbyists already control what diseases get the most research. Lobbyists already control what foods our children eat in school, ect. ect. ad nauseum.

Universal healthcare is not the answer. Not for THIS country. Not at THIS time. HOWEVER, there need to be more checks and balances. There need to be more help for those who cannot afford insurance through their work (insurance for every child is a great start, and it works well at least in my State). There needs to caps on frivulous lawsuits. There needs to be more community based clinics that focus on wellness. I'm seeing some of that in my area. Why not lobby YOUR government to get that help everywhere? We can't just sit back and whine about the state of our government and then do nothing about it. Write your state reps and your congress reps. It makes a difference.


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## MsBirdie

When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.
Tacitus

We do not need bigger govt (federal healthcare) we need a change in culture.


----------



## gcgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsBirdie* 
When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.
Tacitus

Platitudes are useless when making policy decisions, but great for propoganda. What we need to do is make more of our sociopolitical decisons on DATA. We know some things the U.S. does well, and things other countries do better. We need to start looking at what we know works and why and then implementing those things here. Making decisions based on ideological agendas is nonsensical - it's that kind of narrow-minded decision-making that landed us in this war and this state of our healthcare.


----------



## ktmama

_WHy should they, who already pay taxes to pay more in taxes for something they already have?_

Because when you are a citizen of a country, a community, and enjoy the benefits of living in that country/community, you contribute to the overall wellness of that community by paying taxes. That's what I do by paying taxes into the defense system even though I'm anti-war.

My dh and I plan on leaving the US in eight years or so (when my dd graduates from hs) and I'm very much looking forward to it. I agree that we all owe it to ourselves and our kids to go and explore the world if we can. I'm one that's not very patriotic and I don't understand why so many think the US is more *special* than other free countries. Each has their pros and cons and you just have to decide what's important to you.

My feeling about the US right now is that things are SO out of whack, have been SO damaged and we have moved backward SO much, it will literally take decades to right these wrongs and make this country again one in which I'm PROUD to live.

BTW, just to clarify the question of vaxs in France for school.....kids need to have been tested for TB and have only the DTaP to enter school. Some docs will even sign the form without giving the vax, but you didn't hear that from me......


----------



## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama* 
_WHy should they, who already pay taxes to pay more in taxes for something they already have?_

Because when you are a citizen of a country, a community, and enjoy the benefits of living in that country/community, you contribute to the overall wellness of that community by paying taxes. That's what I do by paying taxes into the defense system even though I'm anti-war.

My dh and I plan on leaving the US in eight years or so (when my dd graduates from hs) and I'm very much looking forward to it. I agree that we all owe it to ourselves and our kids to go and explore the world if we can. I'm one that's not very patriotic and I don't understand why so many think the US is more *special* than other free countries. Each has their pros and cons and you just have to decide what's important to you.

My feeling about the US right now is that things are SO out of whack, have been SO damaged and we have moved backward SO much, it will literally take decades to right these wrongs and make this country again one in which I'm PROUD to live.

BTW, just to clarify the question of vaxs in France for school.....kids need to have been tested for TB and have only the DTaP to enter school. Some docs will even sign the form without giving the vax, but you didn't hear that from me......


Why are you waiting 8 yrs to leave?


----------



## merpk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Why are you waiting 8 yrs to leave?


Yeah, that. If you're waiting till DD is out of HS in 8 years, that means she's in 4th grade now, right? It's way hugely much easier to move to another country with children below the age of 10 than it is with teenagers. Unless you figure when she's out of HS she won't come with you, or won't have to, anyway?

(FTR before we moved out of the country ... in the summer of 2006 ... we did a lot of research about that, and learned pretty solidly that until 10yo is really the limit. After age 10 they're really set with friends, etc., and it's much harder for them. Before that they're young enough to be flexible enough about it. And experience has shown that it's entirely correct ... even with our oldest, who's now 9yo, who was very much into routine and really doesn't take too well to changes and new situations, and he's b'H truly settled in beautifully, and really it happened very quickly, too.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
A reason to learn to love your country: you can't just up-sticks and move to wherever ya fancy, I'm afraid. I wish it were that easy but it's not. So even if you'd love to move to Canada or France, ya' can't unless you have family members who are citizens, you can claim a birthright, or you get offered an approved job there.


And yeah, that, too. Which is something to keep in mind for those who are all bent out of shape about the difficulties getting into the US ... _it's something all countries do._


----------



## ktmama

We're waiting until she's done with school due to our custody agreement with her dad.


----------



## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama* 
We're waiting until she's done with school due to our custody agreement with her dad.


That's too bad.







8 yrs is a long time to to put your own life on hold. Is her other parent totally unmoving on this?

And it's true that many countries are very difficult to get into, so this gives you time to get any immigration requirements set in place.


----------



## merpk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama* 
We're waiting until she's done with school due to our custody agreement with her dad.









Sorry to hear that.


----------



## ktmama

Yes, her dad is totally against her leaving the country. We've BDTD with the courts. I think it's a shame too. My dh is European, so we won't have the same immigration issues that many other people have.


----------



## NamastePlatypus

I know how you feel, after living in Germany for three years and being in Europe and NOT here, I can honestly say there is not ONE thing I like here, call me a bad anti american but I have seen a better way and can't stand it here. I know that NO WHERE is perfect but this is not how I want my children to live and see as normal.


----------



## Jeanne D'Arc

Quote:

Then what does that say about our education?

We trust the government to educate us but not to take care of our health?

If it's government-funded but not managed by them, who would manage it? Profit-driven businesses have shown they're not trustworthy.
I trust the government to do neither, the are doing very poorly at
both.

And what is all this talk of freedom? People Open your eyes!
We are losing our freedoms! We are losing more and more every
day!

Quote:

When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.
Tacitus

We do not need bigger govt (federal healthcare) we need a change in culture.
ITA!







and what we have right now is tyranny that
is getting worse. Healthcare is the least of our worries.


----------



## AstridS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LukesMum* 
Hmmm........dh and I are just trying to figure out who has more freedoms). do you mean like the Netherlands or Denmark which are very accepting!(prostituation and drugs in the Netherlands, homosexuality). We just got back from 2 weeks in Amsterdam- our very favorite place BUT they also have very high taxes and we couldnt afford to live there. Well, not so sure about Amsterdam but definately Denmark. Our Danish friends always complainingg that although they have socialized medicine and great education- their taxes are so high they cant afford to buy cars ( big bike cultures there-not fun in the freezing cold) So- there are trade offs. The crime rate is also pretty high in Amsterdam due to the drug culture. Still, we love living abroad but we value and are proud to be americans. Not always what America does but really what AMerica is supposed to stand for. Call me an idealist--I think I am, but I truly try to see the good and not be overwhelmed by all the negative. I also vote and when Im home am quite politically active. If you want change you have to participate-yes?


I'm a Dane. We may complain about taxes, but when you look at what happens in elections, it's always the candidates who promise more care and service that get in. The Conservatives used to be a huge party. The prime minister used to be Conservative. But now they only have about 10 % of the places in parliament. Why? They offered tax relieves in return for cutbacks in the public service and suggested co-payment on non-emergency medical treatment. And people clearly preferred security over choice.
I will be happy to pay my 50% taxrate as long as my kids can have their free college education and I can call a midwife for my homebirth without even thinking about payment. Oh, yes, and as long as the state continues to ensure every mothers right to one year paid maternity leave. Just to mention a few of the perks








And almost all families do have a car. Just not one of the huge, polluting, SUV type ones. And only one. I take the kids to preschool on bikes. I think it's healthiest for them and for me. Otherwise we would probably make room in the budget for a second car, now that I'm working and we don't rely on DH's paycheck and the $600 a month the state paid me to study, while I was in college.








Yeah, we do have problems, and I don't agree with the current government on a lot of issues, but I do think our problems are minor compared to the security that we have. I wouldn't trade my security for more choices. Besides Denmark is such a small country with only 5,5 million citizens, so if I'm not happy with the choises presented to me, it's fairly easy to reach the media and the politicians and let them know that I'm not happy with what they provide. And otherwise I always have the option of paying a private provider, even if they are few and far between, since not many people require them...

Oops, I didn't mean for this to turn in to some patriot speech. God knows I disagree with the current government in most cases. Just wanted to say that I love it here and that it scares the crap out of me, when I hear about the US. People getting harrassed and even arrested for nursing, little boys being circumcised, people having to UC, not out of choise, but because their insurance doesn't cover a midwife... Nope, definitly wouldn't trade my security for more choise.


----------



## lachingona1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jeanne D'Arc* 
I trust the government to do neither, the are doing very poorly at
both.

And what is all this talk of freedom? People Open your eyes!
We are losing our freedoms! We are losing more and more every
day!

ITA!







and what we have right now is tyranny that
is getting worse. Healthcare is the least of our worries.











I wish people would wake up!!! Our so called "freedom" is an illusion.

My DH and I have wanted to move out of this country for quite awhile now.


----------



## Alcyone

I admit I have not read every word of every post but there were a few things that didn't appear to get addressed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
We lived in France last year <snip snip> In those other countries, there is only one way to do medical care and it's the way your dr (ie.GOD) says.

That's in France. Not all "those other countries." Vax, for example, is 100% optional in Denmark, although it's encouraged. There are wildly varying policies in different countries and even different areas within a country, and you cannot apply your experience in France to the entire rest of the world.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LukesMum* 
Our Danish friends always complainingg that although they have socialized medicine and great education- their taxes are so high they cant afford to buy cars ( big bike cultures there-not fun in the freezing cold)

As Astrid said, people may complain, but recent polls show once more that no one wants their taxes lowered. They just want the tax money to go to better things. Most people I know do have cars (we don't, by choice) but they recognize it's asinine to drive short distances. People will say "I hope you didn't drive!" if you came from the next town over. Bike culture is big because biking is safe, convenient, and fast here, not because people can't afford cars. There are great bike lanes, bike racks, etc. so biking _works_ for people better than it does anywhere I lived in the US.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whisper* 
And I absolutely know that it would NOT be easy to move somewhere else. Maybe not even possible. PLUS you have to live in that place for a time before you obtain citizenship...and in that meantime, what if I became ill?

Citizenship may not be required to get benefits like healthcare. You may just need residence; that is the case here. Not that residence is handed out on street corners or anything, but I've noticed that for whatever reason Americans are obsessed with citizenship and it doesn't work the way anyone seems to think it does. They jump right to citizenship requirements and never notice that there's no point in getting the citizenship anyway. I know Americans that have been here over 20 years and have no intentions of getting citizenship (since Denmark requires you give up your US citizenship to get a Danish one).

If you happen to be in the medical or IT fields, Denmark and some other countries around here are really hurting for people and have implemented programs to make it easier to get in for those jobs. If you really do want to leave, it's probably possible, as long as you aren't expecting all your problems to vanish once you leave.

*As to the original question*, I just want to say that I moved to Denmark for practical reasons, not political ones, and under different personal circumstances, we'd be living in the US. I'm very happy here, but I'd be happy there too.

My mother repeatedly tells me than the US is the best country on earth and everyone else wishes they were us. I don't buy that for one minute, but the truth is, that doesn't matter. If you spend all day comparing the US to other countries, you'll always find something disappointing. It doesn't have to be the best country in the world to be worth staying in. It's not worth arguing over which countries have more or less freedoms. There's enough freedom in the US that you can try to do something about what bugs you, and that's really all you need. Take it and run with it.


----------



## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alcyone* 

If you happen to be in the medical or IT fields, Denmark and some other countries around here are really hurting for people and have implemented programs to make it easier to get in for those jobs. If you really do want to leave, it's probably possible, as long as you aren't expecting all your problems to vanish once you leave.

DP is in IT and we're looking for an adventure....PMing you!


----------



## RomanGoddess

I don't know if someone has posted about this already but I just saw the movie Sicko and I have to say that I was really shocked at what happens to people in the US. I mean, a guy gets the tops of his fingers chopped off and he has to decide which finger he would like sewn back on, the one that will cost $60,000 or the one that will cost $12,000??? That is just crazy.

Michael Moore did fail to mention that even countries with public healthcare deny coverage for so-called "experimental" treatment, so yes, the film was a bit one-sided BUT something is definitely needs to change in America's health care system.


----------



## bellymama

LukesMum;8920527
we are blessed. You have to remember what america is about. FREEDOM You can actually come here and say these things without someone knocking on your door. QUOTE said:


> tell that to the native peoples who this land really belongs too....i doubt they consider themselves blessed.
> what america has always been about from day one is war...we are a country built on war. a war against the countries that the first immigrants came from, and then a war against the first nations who lived here. this country was created on lies and deciet against the natives...absolute lies and treachery.
> when a country is created in such a way, its hard for it to ever become something truthful and loving to its inhabitants.
> every stretch of land that you set your feet on today belonged to another group of people, who had lived there and loved there and worshipped there for thousands and thousands of years.
> all the land we live on is stolen....
> that is the tragedy that IS america.


----------



## KellMcK

Having lived and worked in developing countries, maybe I can offer a slightly different perspective on why the United States is often seen as a desireable place to live. (My opinions are based on what I've seen in the former Soviet Republics, Afghanistan, and Africa.) And while I'll use the United States as an example, it has been my experience that people living in developing countries would be just as happy to live in Canada, the UK, or any other "developed" country. In my experience, people who are already living in developed countries don't find the United States a desireable place to live.

For people who have zero options in their developing countries, the beauty of the United States is in the potential. The potential to be able to buy their own land, their own house, or whatever it is they want to own. The potential to become whatever it is they want to become. Just because their father was a farmer doesn't mean that they only thing they can do in life is be a farmer as well.

The other thing that goes hand in hand with potential is access. The access to education, the access to health care, the access to media outlets, the access to politicians. Lack of roads to villages severely hinders access to all of these services.

But even people who desire to come here don't have a clear picture of what it means exactly to live in the US. I can't tell you how many people asked me if I lived in a house like the Ewing ranch, because they had seen Dallas on tv. The image that's portrayed to the rest of the world, especially to people in developing countries who don't know anything else about the US except what they see on tv - these images portray a lifestyle that looks really great - maybe even worth risking your life over to get here.

But mainly, from what I've seen, it's the potential of having more than they could have if they stayed in their country. And the access to things that they don't have in their own country. And there are many many places in the world that still don't have reliable electricity or running water. So for basic services, the US looks better than where they are.

We, as Americans, take these basic services for granted. Why wouldn't we? We've had access to these services for generations now - and barring natural catostophes, these services will remain uninterrupted for us. Once developing countries can get to that same place of uninterrupted basic human services, their citizens will not see the United States (or other developed countries) as being more desireable than their own country.

Again, just based on my own experiences - I've got more experience with developing countries than I do with developed countries!


----------



## chaoticzenmom

Hmmm, denmark? Optional vax's and healthy lifestyle? What's going against it? How are the homeschooling laws? How hard is it to speak Danish? It could happen....

Lisa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alcyone* 
I admit I have not read every word of every post but there were a few things that didn't appear to get addressed.

That's in France. Not all "those other countries." Vax, for example, is 100% optional in Denmark, although it's encouraged. There are wildly varying policies in different countries and even different areas within a country, and you cannot apply your experience in France to the entire rest of the world.

As Astrid said, people may complain, but recent polls show once more that no one wants their taxes lowered. They just want the tax money to go to better things. Most people I know do have cars (we don't, by choice) but they recognize it's asinine to drive short distances. People will say "I hope you didn't drive!" if you came from the next town over. Bike culture is big because biking is safe, convenient, and fast here, not because people can't afford cars. There are great bike lanes, bike racks, etc. so biking _works_ for people better than it does anywhere I lived in the US.

Citizenship may not be required to get benefits like healthcare. You may just need residence; that is the case here. Not that residence is handed out on street corners or anything, but I've noticed that for whatever reason Americans are obsessed with citizenship and it doesn't work the way anyone seems to think it does. They jump right to citizenship requirements and never notice that there's no point in getting the citizenship anyway. I know Americans that have been here over 20 years and have no intentions of getting citizenship (since Denmark requires you give up your US citizenship to get a Danish one).

If you happen to be in the medical or IT fields, Denmark and some other countries around here are really hurting for people and have implemented programs to make it easier to get in for those jobs. If you really do want to leave, it's probably possible, as long as you aren't expecting all your problems to vanish once you leave.

*As to the original question*, I just want to say that I moved to Denmark for practical reasons, not political ones, and under different personal circumstances, we'd be living in the US. I'm very happy here, but I'd be happy there too.

My mother repeatedly tells me than the US is the best country on earth and everyone else wishes they were us. I don't buy that for one minute, but the truth is, that doesn't matter. If you spend all day comparing the US to other countries, you'll always find something disappointing. It doesn't have to be the best country in the world to be worth staying in. It's not worth arguing over which countries have more or less freedoms. There's enough freedom in the US that you can try to do something about what bugs you, and that's really all you need. Take it and run with it.


----------



## LukesMum

KellyMcK- well said
BellyMa- to me you sound bitter and angry-I find that a bit sad and wish you could see the positive things about our country

DENMARK- we my be moving there in 2 years for a 3 yr stint. Problems? Its bloody cold, we'd live in an apt.







, we'll survivie. Again, for most Danes we know they say the schools arent that great and they are frustrated with the 60% tax. Thats from them not me


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## Alcyone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
Hmmm, denmark? Optional vax's and healthy lifestyle? What's going against it? How are the homeschooling laws? How hard is it to speak Danish? It could happen....

Lisa

Homeschooling is legal but rare. Students must take tests every year, whether homeschooled or not. The Danish language is a big PITA. What's going against it is a very homogenous society, general xenophobia, dreary weather, and a high cost of living. It's not a magical wonderland of awesome, but like I said, I'm happy here and I have no plans to move. There's good and bad anywhere you go.

Anyway, I don't intend to derail the thread into "All About Denmark." If anyone has any further questions about what's good or bad in Denmark, I'll be happy to answer them via PM.

Having a history of stealing land from other people is hardly a uniquely American phenomenon. Most if not all countries have a fair amount of evil in their past, and if you let that stop you from finding what's good in today's world, you'll never be happy anywhere.


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## diamond lil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
we are a country built on war.

What country ISN'T built on war? Human beings have been killing each other over land since the beginning of time.

Don't blame Americans, y'all!







:


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## jentilla

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lachingona1* 









I wish people would wake up!!! Our so called "freedom" is an illusion.

My DH and I have wanted to move out of this country for quite awhile now.

You think we don't have freedom NOW, if we don't DO SOMETHING soon we may not have ANY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tfu...elated&search=


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## rabbitmum

Move to Norway! I heard that Michael Moore was considering using Norway as an example in his film, but settled for France because Norway's health system seemed too utopian. So he thought it wouldn't work so well as a comparison, because people wouldn't really believe it.









We have free hospitals, good, free and non-interventionist birth care (MUCH lower caesarean rates than the U.S., for instance), free elderly care, etc. We have no mandatory vaccines, you can refuse them all if you want, and nobody will ever ask you about it. We can choose which doctor we want to use, and I can always get an appointment the same day - which I pay nothing (if it's for my son) or very little for.

We have good public schools, and we can also choose alternative schools for our children (as for instance Waldorf, as I did for mine), and we are NOT stuck with a profession because we made a not-so-well-thought-through choice when we were 16.

We have the highest breastfeeding rate in the world, because we have a year maternity/paternity leave and breastfeeding is encouraged by hospitals and health clinics. We breastfeed everywhere, and we don't cover up. For instance I breastfed my 20 month old in a meeting with our bank yesterday. I have never had a comment that it's time to stop, or the wrong place to nurse.









We also have the freedom to start our own companies, as I have done - in fact I don't know of any freedoms you have in the US that we don't have - but I do know about some freedoms that we have that you don't.

We don't circumcise boys! And spanking is illegal!







:

Yes, we have high taxes, but that is not mainly because the health service system is so expensive, but to reduce the amount of money in circulation so as not to increase inflation and ruin our chances to compete on the international market. Only 10 % of Norway's income comes from taxes, so they are not necessary to pay for our benefits.

But we are not patriotic - we are happy to complain about our politicians, disagree and discuss - it is a democracy after all, we are not all supposed to think alike! So we don't have any flag-pledging or national anthems in the schools, and we don't need any.

But really, as somebody said before, you should all stay where you are and change your country! And not be ashamed of who the leader of your country is, because you didn't vote for him, did you? Maybe you will have a fair election the next time!


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## jentilla

_Yes, we have high taxes, but that is not mainly because the health service system is so expensive, but to reduce the amount of money in circulation so as not to increase inflation and ruin our chances to compete on the international market. Only 10 % of Norway's income comes from taxes, so they are not necessary to pay for our benefits_

Right. We have allowed the creation of the Federal Reserve to issue our money rather than the gov. NONE of our income tax goes to provide the services we are "supposed" to get. The services are provided by state and, county and property taxes.

Quote:

But really, as somebody said before, you should all stay where you are and change your country! And not be ashamed of who the leader of your country is, because you didn't vote for him, did you? Maybe you will have a fair election the next time!








Not if we don't outlaw computerized voting machines.


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## beansricerevolt

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lachingona1* 









I wish people would wake up!!! Our so called "freedom" is an illusion.


Ya that!

We are on the verge of going underground and are working our way OUT of the system in every way possible.
My opposition is a spiritual one.


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## lovemybaby

Two years ago, Whisper, I felt as you do now. I was so sad about how healthcare is such a mess in the US, the war in Iraq, homophobia, the rise of the religious right, etc. etc. I tried hard to change things, for years. But it kept getting worse and more scary and I was concerned about my family. So we applied to move to Canada...and we did! Culturally Americans fit in very well here, and there's universal healthcare that covers homebirth (not covered under my US insurance) and caesarian rates are lower. Homeschooling is legal in all provinces and territories, and there is much freedom of speech and freedom to start a business or whatever. Taxes are higher, yes, but overall healthcare is about 1/2 what is costs the average American...and everyone has coverage! I have a great doctor, no copays even! Prescriptions are cheap. It's beautiful here and people really care a whole lot about the environment. And Canada is way safer with much lower violent crime rates.

We are close enough to the US to visit friends once in a while. Life is good in Canada! Not perfect, but way better and I feel optimistic again and more hopeful for my family's future. There's a feeling here I was totally missing in the US: people care a lot more about each other here. It's way too dog eat dog in the US and too many vulnerable folks fall through the cracks.


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## merpk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 

But we are not patriotic - we are happy to complain about our politicians, disagree and discuss - it is a democracy after all, we are not all supposed to think alike! So we don't have any flag-pledging or national anthems in the schools, and we don't need any.


Quick interjection: You can be very patriotic and still complain about politicians, disagree, discuss, and not think alike. You can also be patriotic without flag-pledging or national anthems in the schools. One has nothing to do with the other.

_pa·tri·ot·ic adj. Feeling, expressing, or inspired by love for one's country.
_


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## rabbitmum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk* 
Quick interjection: You can be very patriotic and still complain about politicians, disagree, discuss, and not think alike. You can also be patriotic without flag-pledging or national anthems in the schools. One has nothing to do with the other.

_pa·tri·ot·ic adj. Feeling, expressing, or inspired by love for one's country.
_

Yes! You are right about that, of course. And I was rather patriotic in my post, wasn't I!







But what I meant was that we don't have all these expressions of patriotism. I can remember lots of forum discussions (not on this forum) where people were criticised for bein "un-American" for hating American politics etc. We don't have a parallel concept of being "un-Norwegian". It seems to me you have a greater pressure for consensus than we have. I even have a couple of American acquaintances who have left the U.S. because of this atmosphere after "9/11". I don't know if this makes any sense to you at all?


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## merpk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
Yes! You are right about that, of course. And I was rather patriotic in my post, wasn't I!







But what I meant was that we don't have all these expressions of patriotism. I can remember lots of forum discussions (not on this forum) where people were criticised for bein "un-American" for hating American politics etc. We don't have a parallel concept of being "un-Norwegian". It seems to me you have a greater pressure for consensus than we have. I even have a couple of American acquaintances who have left the U.S. because of this atmosphere after "9/11". I don't know if this makes any sense to you at all?


One big difference between Norway, though, and the US, is that Norway has a relatively homogenous population. Yes, there are immigrants, and yes, there are minorities, but they are a very, very small proportion of the population. So real differences in cultural outlook, etc., are just not part of the Norwegian reality.

It was in the NY Times this past week that _in at least five states in the US, just less than half of the households speak a language other than English at home._ Which is fascinating, isn't it?

There are very few other countries in the world with that kind of situation. It's something that does cause all sorts of social issues ... but at the same time, is something to be proud of. For Americans of all ethnicities. You know?

Then again, maybe this is very on-topic. Hmmm.


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## TheTruth

I will speak as you can understand me.
*begins talking in retarded voice*
JUST BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE AS GOOD OF HEALTH CARE IS NO REASON TO MOVE. LAWS IN OTHER COUNTRIES CAN BE VERY LIMITATIVE*
Dumbass.


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