# 75 foot cliffs in backyard!



## Casual Storm (Apr 9, 2003)

Hi Everyone,

My dh and I bought a lot of property in a new neighboorhood. We loved it because our property bordered a "forever wild" area owned by the homeowner's association of the adjacent development. The entire area is forest. When we bought the land, I asked the developer what was behind our house and he simply said "woods". We did walk out about 50 yards into the forever wild area, and all we could see was forest.

Fast forward to yesterday. Our house is currently being built -foundation is in and walls starting to be put up. We met with our builder at the site for a meeting. While he and my dh discussed technical details, I decided to explore the forever wild area more -for some reason it didn't seem as difficult as before to navigate between the prickly bushes and underbrush. Nonetheless, as I was wandering around, walking further than I have before, I suddenly found my myself on top of a HUGE old quarry pit -with sides going straight down approximately 75 feet! I'm talking free fall if I stepped off. I felt as if my heart literally stopped. I looked back and I could see our house - I'd say the pit was 100 yards from the end of our property. We never noticed it from our property because the land literally drops off -no signs of a quarry, rocks, etc and I guess the edge just blended in with the landscape. It isn't until I was about 10 ft from it that I could tell something was there.

We have a 2 year old and I am scared to death! If I had known that quarry was there, I would have NEVER agreed to buy the property. I immediately ran back and told my dh. He went back to see it and said "Cool!" Yes, it is a beautiful and striking sight, but not when you have kids. He obviously didn't share the same panic I did about safety. While he acknowledged the possibility that ds could fall in, he said he didn't think it would happen if we just watched him and taught him not to go near it when he is older.

When we went to pick up our ds at my parent's I told them what we found. They just said I was being irrational and hysterical about the whole thing -afterall, "life is full of risks and you can't protect ds from everything." Am I just being irrational?

So far, my dh is adamantly against bailing on the house now or trying to sell it once it is built. This house has been a labor of love for him and we would lose a lot of money. In my opinion, no house or amount of money is worth my ds's life. I do plan to approach the Homeowner's Association to ask if some sort of fence can be placed around the perimeter of the pit -at least to warn children and others where the cliffs begin, and hopefully act as a psychological deterrent. I don't think they will agree, though, even if we offer to pay for it ourselves.

We are obviously going to fence in our backyard and I am not going to let ds out of my sight when he is outside. My fear is that when ds becomes old enough for the fence to be obsolete, or when he is well old enough to play without me standing over him (8, 10 years old?), the pit will become a real hazard.

If you read this far, thank you! What I would like feedback on is the following:
1. Am I crazy for feeling so terrified? Everyone around me is making me feel that way. Do I need a reality check?
2. For those of you who grew up with potential imminent dangers near your home, or live near them now with children, how did/do you handle it? Can children be taught and trusted to act responsibility around cliffs, and if so, at what age?
3. What would you (anyone) do if you were in my situation?

I am SO ANGRY at myself for not discovering this earlier. Please learn from my mistake and literally walk a huge boundary around any land or house you are considering buying or renting for hidden dangers.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Last year, we were going to rent half a duplex that basically had the front yard on the edge of such a cliff-like place. There was a sharp dropoff, and a bunch of blackberry bushes at the bottom, and then the street. The landlord lived in the other half of the duplex, he had kids and his yard was fenced off, so we asked if we could fence ours. We told him we would pay for it and build it ourselves, and that we would take it with us when we left. He still said no. The reason? "I just didn't envision your side of the place as having a fence."







: Whatever, dude! The guy was a lawyer! Doesn't he think about being sued?

My dh was the same way - he said that dd was too intelligent to let herself get hurt. I pointed out that accidents happen to everyone, that it's not about intelligence or obedience, and that although we can't prevent everything, why not prevent what we can? Finally I just told him I didn't want to live there and he reluctantly agreed. Now we live in a 2-story place, and wouldn't you know, all 3 of us have fallen down the stairs at least once! It really can happen to anyone.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Wow! I don't think you're crazy at all. I wouldn't buy property by that either. I think that will be a strong draw to kids when they are older, and I agree with what you are saying.

There isn't an immediate risk to your child, if you have a fence put in, but, it will be a concern in the future. Sigh. I don't know what I would do. I'd make my dh sell; probably in a few years when you can make a profit as you'd have more equity. Can you back out?

The fence around the quarry is an excellent idea. I would definitely ask the homeowners association about it, and make a huge stink if they say "no".

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

Kristi


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm sorry you made this discovery so late.

I do understand how you feel. Thing is, if it was just something to worry about with a toddler, I'd say "hang in there". But this will be a concern for years to come. I think the only thing you can do now is to build fences. I would actually get some engineers to come in and build one fence up against the cliff drop-off - like the kinds you see on public lands or parks. Usually chain-link of some sort, with reinforcements. Something that is really tough to get around. Then, of course, you need to fence off your own yard.

I feel for you, though. I think that is something that would always be in the back of my mind.


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## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

You are NOT being irrational about this. I can't believe your parents said you can't protect him from everything, this is a 75 foot drop for pete sake!! I'd be stuck as to what to do as well. What a major decision to have to make.


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## ellemoon (Mar 19, 2003)

Maybe get a fenced in yard with a gate you can keep closed most of the time, but if you want to explore the woods and cliff area you will still have access.

Just a thought.

elle


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

You are absolutely not being irrational. I wouldn't be concerned too much about now, you can keep a toddler fenced in. I would definetly be concerned about an older child. Things like old quarries, have some sort of attraction for kids. I know, I used to go up and walk across an old train tressel way over a canyon out in the woods with my friends, as well as old coal mines behind our house with my brother when I was only 8!!!







Kids just don't get the magnitude of danger from some things. The pull of excitement is a little too much. My parents where not neglectfull and when my mother found out years later, she almost had a heart attack. It is a wonder nothing ever happened.

I don't mean to make you feel worse, but maybe you can pass this on to your dh. I would think that you probably have a lawsuit on your hands, if the realtor really misinformed your family about the quarry, especially when you asked outright.

I am sorry, I hope everything works out for your family.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

In addition to being the obvious hazard of falling off, you should have it inspected for residual chemicals from the quarry. I'm currently taking a geology class and my instructor said there are old uranium (or other nasty- don't really remember w/pg brain) quarries that are no longer being mined but are still radioactive. There are houses being built right on top of the quarry.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

No, not irrational. If your husband was open to getting out of the deal, I think you could make a case for misrepresentation by the realtor. But, since he won't consider it, I think you are stuck making the best of it.

I think a fence around your yard will answer the question for a while. And I do think that a child can be taught and trusted to be safe when they are older. I grew up about that far from a cliff into the pacific ocean and never played at a dangerous place. A fence around the actual site would be helpful to lots of people and is worth lobbying for. Good luck.


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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

*1. Am I crazy for feeling so terrified? Everyone around me is making me feel that way. Do I need a reality check?* I don't think you're crazy for being terrified but I do think you need a reality check in a way. "Woods" are not really safe places for kids to play, quarry or no. So yes, the quarry and cliffs are dangerous, but I don't think it would be a deal breaker for me, I would just build a fence.

*2. For those of you who grew up with potential imminent dangers near your home, or live near them now with children, how did/do you handle it? Can children be taught and trusted to act responsibility around cliffs, and if so, at what age?* I grew up in the middle of the country with no neighbors for miles (in one direction I could have walked for about 10 miles without hitting a road or seeing another person) but several lakes and a lot of wild animals. My parents started by taking walks with me and showing me how to find my way home, survive in the woods alone, and protect myself from dangers. Then there was the rule that I could go into the woods as long as I could see the house from where I was. This gave me room to play but still be close to home. Then as I got older I was able to explore more. I don't really think there's an age where things like that become safe - all kids are different.

*3. What would you (anyone) do if you were in my situation?* Build a fence. I now live on a quiet street in a small town but there are still a lot of dangers that my 20 month could find. We built a fence around our lot and now I can play outside with her and actually enjoy myself without being neurotic about her finding trouble.


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## siddie (Jan 15, 2003)

I know exactly how you feel! I truly would not be able to relax with a hazard like that nearby. Especially now that you know there is also a possibility of hazardous chemicals in addition to the drop-off. I stood firm when we were house-hunting, insisting that we get a house without a pool. Kids are naturally attracted to things like that and they don't understand the potential danger. At some point in time, all kids manage to get outside unattended. Your home should be a safe haven for you and your family. Having to worry about something like children falling off of a cliff is not going to make for an enjoyable experience. You are being realistic about the dangers, everyone else is downplaying it.

I would most definitely back out of the deal. If they will not let you out at this time, get a lawyer and sue them (previous owners and realtors) for failure to disclose. YOu should have been given a map showing your property and surrounding properties AND the abandoned quarry. Abandoned quarries are NOT desirable places for families and if they didn't tell you that, they are withholding info. Contact the board of realtors and file a complaint.

WE changed realtors after discovering that the neighborhood our realtor kept pushing us towards as so desirable had a sewage plant and cell phone towers behind it.


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## siddie (Jan 15, 2003)

Ps, I guess "forever wild" is the euphemism for abandoned quarry and unsalable land there.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I fell donw and step and broke my foot. Does that mean I need to run out and remove all steps in this world?

Accidents can happen anywere!!

Do I think your fear is warrented, yes. But enough to get out of the house, NO!! Your next home could have mack trucks driving by or a drunk neighbor.

As for the realitor I would nail the [email protected]# on failure to disclose. Make he fork over for testing chemical and a fence for your yard.


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## Casual Storm (Apr 9, 2003)

I want to thank everyone for their input. A fence will definitely be put in our backyard. Like a few of you said, hopefully with the fence I will have a few years to figure out what to do next.

One idea I was thinking of was to plant thickets of prickle bushes around the perimeter of the cliff to discourage anyone from getting too close. I'm still going to talk to the Homeowners Association.

The man who owned the land sold it to us directly -no realtor involved on his end. I remember I was very pregnant with ds, and he was well aware of it.

My dh also went and looked closer at the quarry, and he claims if someone fell off, they would only free fall about 20 feet before they would hit the very steep side of the quarry wall and roll/slide the rest of the way down....he said bones would definitely be broken, but he didn't think falling would mean certain death. I suppose that is a little comforting, but still far from ideal.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

You know, I just have to ask....and I hope you aren't offended by this:

But why would you make such a purchase without inspecting the land yourself? Really, I'm wondering what recourse you will have legally. I can't imagine buying a peice of property and not inspecting it thoroughly first. But then, lessons are usually learned the hard way, aren't they? (and believe me, I've learned my fair share of lessons that way!)


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Well, yes and no. You could build a fence and chances are your child wouldn't go near it anyway. I know I wouldn't, I'm terrified of heights. On the other hand, you will always be worried about this and will never be able to relax in that house. Maybe you could compromise with him? Build and live there for a few years until you can sell and not lose money. A fence should solve the problem for now until your child is older.

BTW, I grew up on a lake. That could have been seen as a danger. There were rules to follow and I followed them, making it safe.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

OK I dont think its unwaranted concern at all. BUT I do think if you put a fence aroudn your yard and teach your children of the dangers its just as safe as anywhere else because there are dangers everywhere.

I totally understand the not scoutign the entire property. MY ILs recently purchased a large peice of property and only went in part way, I couldnt imagine them trying to navigate it ALL before making the decision to purchase. I took my kids on a walk there last year and it was quite the adventure for them as we explored the new family recreational land. We didnt come across anything near what you did but apon exploring we did find a sand pit and some sink holes that were filled with rocks. I'd be concerned about my children around them unattendted but they wont be unattended there anytime before they are of responsible age. Just my take on it.

I say fence your yard and educate your child and you should be good for awhile. He'll more likely get hurt while playing at the house than wandering to the pit. I LOVE your idea of planting prickle bushes! We live on a farm and often have big farm equipement driving on and off the property, I was contemplating a fence or something but I think bushes that are hard to navigate without getting pricked would suffice and would look more natural here. Now would that stop a cow from wandering in our yard? They sometimes excape. lmao.. this morning I awoke to a bull wandering around, yeesh!


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## Casual Storm (Apr 9, 2003)

Hi Piglet-

No, I'm not offended. Just to clarify, the quarry is not our property. It is on the adjacent land that is owned by the homeowner's association of a neighborhood near us. We did walk part way into the association's land, and all we could see was trees, trees, and trees. It was difficult to navigate, since there were so much underbrush and prickly bushes -something that wasn't there this weekend because I think the winter snow pushed it down temporarily. We didn't see any indication of the quarry from where we stood at the farthest point we ventured to at that time.

I did ask the developer who was selling us our property what was on the land behind ours, and all he said was "woods" and told us it was deeded "forever wild" so it could never be developed. He lives in the neighborhood that owns the land the quarry is on. I'm sure he knew the quarry existed. Whether he had a legal obligation to tell us about the quarry even though it wasn't on our land, I don't know. My guess is probably not.

In the end, it is a lesson learned. I trusted the developer when he didn't mention any potential dangers, which is another reason why we didn't attempt to walk the entire area of the association's non-developed land. It just never even entered my mind that a quarry could be back there. I just figured the land would eventually run into a road or someone's backyard.

On the plus side, my dh said that once the underbrush and prickly vines start popping up again, he thinks I will be pleasantly reminded how difficult it is to walk back that far in the first place.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I think a fence would be fine. As the kids get older, just explain that they can't go back there alone.

I lived in an area where we were constantly exploring the woods from age 7 and up. It was great fun and no body really worried about it.

I have to agree with your parents on this one. It's not a deal breaker. You can protect your children by setting limits and placing a fence. You don't have to move away from the dangers. I don't think you are insane, but I do think you are overreacting a little....but what mother doesn't once in a while!

I would find out what type of quarry it was. Just for curiosity sake.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kms1s*
I did ask the developer who was selling us our property what was on the land behind ours, and all he said was "woods" and told us it was deeded "forever wild" so it could never be developed. He lives in the neighborhood that owns the land the quarry is on. I'm sure he knew the quarry existed. Whether he had a legal obligation to tell us about the quarry even though it wasn't on our land, I don't know. My guess is probably not.


My guess is it is something that he would legally have to disclose and by not doing so, would be a way to get out of the contract. You'd probably have to talk to a lawyer to confirm. When we bought our house, we had pages of disclosures to sign- things like we knew there was a small airport 3 miles to the south that is expected to expand greatly in the next several years, that there is a power line to the south of the subdivision, that they were putting in a second line, that land a little further south was zoned for office/light industrial, land to the west was zoned for apartments, etc. I was amazed the amount of stuff they had us sign.

I would definitely check into it- even if you keep the land, you might be able to force the seller to pay for chemical checks and fences, etc.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I guess it wouldn't bother me. i would build a big fence and teach them the dangers. Even as an older child i would have been scared of that. Still would be. Also as your child become old enough for it to be an issue, your dh might be more willing to sell, you will have equity in the home and selling will just be more of an option. For now I don't think there is a danger. Put a lock on your gate and a bell on your door, just in case he sneaks out. Poerhaps plant some seriously thorny bushes along the perameter of your property also. Anything that is a deterant. If you child isn't obediant enough to stay away from it when he is older there are all sorts of other dangers he will likely get into that are just as bad. I don't think you have to worry about this being a stronger pull than any of the other temptations out there. Not be a downer but what i am trying to say is that this is an abvious danger so it seems really bad but there are sorts of other hidden dangers out there that are just as bad or worse. At least you know aboiut this one and can prep them to stay away from it.

As for the whole quarry thing. Are you sure that is what it was. we have giant cracks here, for lack oif a better word. Palasaides park, you are jhust driving along the prairie when all of a sudden out of know where these giant cracks in the earth, some of them seemingly bottomless, apear out of nowhere. beutiful. But they have campsites right off of some of them. I will not camp with my children there. I am talking if you get up to pee in the night you could easily fall in. A little further in are woods and a larger canyon that is home to a river (Sioux I think). Anyway, my point is they are perfectly natural, but the area does look a bit like it was mined. So if that is the case you don't have to wory about any mining residue.


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## Mrs Jones (May 1, 2004)

We live on a cliff. Our backyard ends in a dropoff similar to yours. A long time before we bought the house someone had the good sense to ring the yard with holly, then they planted trees in front of that. So, yes, there is a huge and very steep dropoff, but, my kids would have to go through several feet of very prickely holly first. The day we moved in, we took a long and serious walk around the property and it is clearly a danger. There is one open area, where they can see the dropoff and they want nothing to do with it.

Our neighborhood is loaded with kids living on the side of this cliff, and they all respect it. I think as the kids get older, they will want to explore it. Your kids will probably eventually want to check out the quarry too. In our neighborhood, we have discussed making some trails, using ropes, etc. I think our cliff, if it becomes attractive to the kids, could be made somewhat safe. This is a long way down the road for us though. Some of our neighbors have fences, some have "natural" fences, like ours. But everyone has something to protect their kids.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

edited for double posting. patience is a virtue.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

If it's not too late to be jumping in, I'd like to share a climber's perspective here. To be honest, DH & I would probably be thrilled to find we had our 'own' crag in the backyard, just so you know where I'm coming from.

However, I can totally understand your worries about a young child wandering off the edge. The only thing for it is to watch them. Older children are capable of understanding that some things are very, very dangerous & could kill you (think power points, KWIM?). We don't actually take our kids climbing in places where they can go off the edge. Anywhere questionable & we'd rope them in. And I'm sorry to be graphic here, but you can definitely die from falling 20 feet. The impact on a human body can be pretty shocking, even from what seems like a short distance. Slipping & sliding down a rock wall is not really much better- takes a lot of skin off along the way, not to mention head injuries & shattered, not broken, bones (depending on speed of descent).

I guess my point really should be, (rather than horror stories) don't let the quarry spoil your enjoyment of your new house. Yes, put a high fence up, but also let your child know why the fence is there. And I would suggest teaching them to climb on top-rope. You can start as early as age 3, with the proper chest harness & such. Trust me, even the most fearless child will understand better about heights after this kind of experience. Not that it's bad, just..... makes an impression, I'd say. We teach ours to stay low near edges & sit on the ground (but mostly we take them bouldering where they won't fall more than maybe 2 meters- but it still worries me! and I watch 'em like a hawk. And they're not allowed to climb without a spotter.)

Finally, if you're going to plant big nasty prickle bushes, do try & find some that aren't going to run wild, or you may be regretting that decision a few years down the track when you spend hours every weekend pulling them out of your yard. (that's the botanist in me speaking now). Holly is a big no-no, trust me......

And sorry boys, but in my experience the blokes never take this sort of stuff as seriously as the ladies do, so don't let your DH poo-poo your worries, okay? Do what you need to do to make your yard feel safe to you..........


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## Mrs Jones (May 1, 2004)

Aussiemum,
Why is holly a no-no? It seems to serve a purpose in our situation.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Holly is a no-no depending on where you live. Holly is native to the British Isles (for lack of a better term) & possibly some other areas of Europe, altho I'm not totally up-to-date on this particular species. It tends to be able to spread rapidly under favourable conditions similar to it's native habitat i.e. damp, cool climate. Unfortunately it's berries are very yummy to birds. The birds then fly out into forest/bush areas, poo out the seeds & a new holly plant grows. If you try & remove seedlings by pulling, the plant can regenerate from fragments of root left in the ground. Entire areas of native bush can become choked with holly, making it impossible to walk thru. This might sound good for the OP who needs to keep her littlies away from the cliff, but it's not such a good thing from an ecological & biological diversity perspective.

My in laws have an absolutely stunning specimen of holly at their house in the mountains. They love it & will not remove it. Holly also happens to be a nasty invasive weed where they live (but not declared.... yet!). Their house backs onto World Heritage National Park. They just spent an absolute fortune bringing in a weed control team to pull, spray, chop & dig out the thousands of holly plants scattered thru native bush on their property. They will have to continue to do that periodically until they decide that the holly bush is not worth it anymore. We used to try & do it by hand on the holidays, but it just got away from us. Hard, hard work, let me tell you.........

I could write a novel on invasive introduced species, but I'll leave it with that for now. Hope that helps answer some of your questions.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
Holly is a no-no depending on where you live. Holly is native to the British Isles (for lack of a better term) & possibly some other areas of Europe, altho I'm not totally up-to-date on this particular species. It tends to be able to spread rapidly under favourable conditions similar to it's native habitat i.e. damp, cool climate. Unfortunately it's berries are very yummy to birds. The birds then fly out into forest/bush areas, poo out the seeds & a new holly plant grows. If you try & remove seedlings by pulling, the plant can regenerate from fragments of root left in the ground. Entire areas of native bush can become choked with holly, making it impossible to walk thru. This might sound good for the OP who needs to keep her littlies away from the cliff, but it's not such a good thing from an ecological & biological diversity perspective.

My in laws have an absolutely stunning specimen of holly at their house in the mountains. They love it & will not remove it. Holly also happens to be a nasty invasive weed where they live (but not declared.... yet!). Their house backs onto World Heritage National Park. They just spent an absolute fortune bringing in a weed control team to pull, spray, chop & dig out the thousands of holly plants scattered thru native bush on their property. They will have to continue to do that periodically until they decide that the holly bush is not worth it anymore. We used to try & do it by hand on the holidays, but it just got away from us. Hard, hard work, let me tell you.........

I could write a novel on invasive introduced species, but I'll leave it with that for now. Hope that helps answer some of your questions.

















T

There is a species of holly, _Ilex opaca_ , that is native to parts of the US also. It's all over Florida, but I've never seen massive stands of it, just one or two trees here and there.


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## Mrs Jones (May 1, 2004)

Interesting. I have English holly (Ilex aquifolium), and I am in cool damp climate. (Pacific Northwest.) I don't know nearly enough about bio diversity, but I am learning. We also have a lot of blackberries and Scotch Broom, which have some of the same issues.

Thanks for the explanation!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

continuing the OT-ness

Mrs. Jones, I used to live in your neck of the woods. Have a serious think about getting rid of that holly. And scotchbroom is a menace. Sorry.... Blackberries, from memory, are native to your particular area, but check that one out, okay? My old H&C flora is at home.....

Oh & thanks darkpear, for the info about the Florida holly







I didn't know Ilex sps. grew in sub-tropics/tropics.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I would be freaking out too! When I was a pre teen my parents looked at a house that was next to an abandoned strip mine. It freaked me out as I would be responsible for making sure my little brother stayed away from it. Thank goodness we didn't move in that house. I'd install a huge fence and put a lock on the gate.


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