# Threats with knives - WWYD?



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I was woken up this morning by an intercom call from dd1 (9). She was locked in the downstairs bathroom with her little sister, and the downstairs phone handset. DS2 (almost 7) was chasing the two of them with sharp knives from the kitchen. I came downstairs immediately, and he jumped out from behind a curtain, holding the two knives like swords, and said "hiya!" and told me to stay back. In my not finest parenting moment, I told him to give me the knives now, or he was getting his butt paddled. *sigh*

He gave me the knives and I sent him upstairs for a time-out. I honestly have NO idea how to deal with something like this. His behaviour is frequently awful in the mornings, but not this awful.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

By age 7 my DS knew not to play with knives under any circumstances. Can you start some kitchen training, safety lessons etc.

For example - this is the bread knife, look at the deep grooves, its ONLY for cutting bread. These are steak knives, still have grooves but much pointier at the end. and smaller. This is a fruit knife....


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

That's scary. Can he be on vegetable chopping duty for the next couple of weeks? Instead of doing other stuff like playing with friends, reading, watching tv, ect before dinner he has to help you make dinner. I'm sure he knows how sharp knives are, but maybe after a couple of weeks of having to use one (or watch you use one) he will understand exactly how sharp they are and how they are intended to be used.

Also, for the time being I'd move them out of his reach (if there is a such thing for a 7 yo boy). My brother stabbed me in the forearm with a steak knife when he was that age and I was 10. It wasn't too bad, but it sure did hurt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zebra15*
> 
> By age 7 my DS knew not to play with knives under any circumstances. Can you start some kitchen training, safety lessons etc.
> 
> For example - this is the bread knife, look at the deep grooves, its ONLY for cutting bread. These are steak knives, still have grooves but much pointier at the end. and smaller. This is a fruit knife....


We've been doing that since he was a toddler.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama* 

That's scary. Can he be on vegetable chopping duty for the next couple of weeks? Instead of doing other stuff like playing with friends, reading, watching tv, ect before dinner he has to help you make dinner. I'm sure he knows how sharp knives are, but maybe after a couple of weeks of having to use one (or watch you use one) he will understand exactly how sharp they are and how they are intended to be used.
He's used the knives before (under supervision), but this might be a good idea. It's hard to say what really sinks in with this one.


> Also, for the time being I'd move them out of his reach (if there is a such thing for a 7 yo boy). My brother stabbed me in the forearm with a steak knife when he was that age and I was 10. It wasn't too bad, but it sure did hurt.


I was thinking about moving them out of his reach, but I honestly can't think of anywhere that he can't get to, if he tries. It would be difficult for him to reach the very top shelf in the kitchen, but if he stood on something on the counter, he could do it...and there's the chance that he'd end up taking a tumble (possibly with the knives in his hands...that wasn't a good mental picture at all).

He apparently started sawing on one of my cookbooks, too.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> *I was thinking about moving them out of his reach, but I honestly can't think of anywhere that he can't get to, if he tries.* It would be difficult for him to reach the very top shelf in the kitchen, but if he stood on something on the counter, he could do it...and there's the chance that he'd end up taking a tumble (possibly with the knives in his hands...that wasn't a good mental picture at all).
> 
> He apparently started sawing on one of my cookbooks, too.


I had a feeling that would be the case. My little brother was just like this...he'd climb up the Empire State Building if he thought there was something my mother didnt want him to have at the top of it. Sounds like a lock box is the only solution to actually keeping them away from him.

As far as mornings go, what if he has to stay in his room (or in a certain room..one that wasnt the kitchen) until you got up?


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## MrsGregory (Dec 21, 2011)

Hi gang!

I'm stepping out of my depth a little here, but I wanted to lend my support and an idea.

I've been around little boys my whole life. My family makes lots of (big) men. We say, manly, manly men.

I don't know about your men - but I know our men, they're very "typical" men. It's in quotes because let's face it, not all men are one way or another, but for better or worse, our men are what passes for "an average manly man" or passed for such in the less enlightened era - in other words, these men of ours, they smash things, they take something apart and poke at it's innards (A car! A toaster! We keep them away from living creatures until they're taught empathy and boundaries!), they harass the rest of the clan until we trick them into going outside and lock the door. They are fairly violent little hooligans until we can teach them to get a handle on themselves.

What you described your son doing, while completely not OK, sounds pretty typical for the men I know at about that age. <sigh>

Have you given him something he can menace, terrorize and destroy? At 7, my brothers had things they could tear to ribbons, and they did so, on a daily basis. We still have things they can punch if they need to punch something. There has always been something available for the boys to disassemble, or just break. I don't want to tell you how often the menfolk will group up and safely make something explode. Grown men here. Potato guns are built and fired. Go-carts turn into bumper cars. Mayhem.

Try giving the boy something to shred, and explaining that he needs to keep his need to shred contained. See if that helps.

Good luck! (Me, I'm doing every trick I know to be sure I have nothing but girls!)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> As far as mornings go, what if he has to stay in his room (or in a certain room..one that wasnt the kitchen) until you got up?


I have no way to enforce it, so he won't do it. To give you an idea what ds2 is like, a pediatrician I saw last year gave him a tentative diagnosis of ADHD and ODD. I happen to disagree with her diagnosis (she was ignoring quite a few aspects of what I was telling her), but I can see why she reached that conclusion. He doesn't understand boundaries very well.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I know a lot of people with boys that age, say that their boys are better behaved when they have a productive outlet for their energy/agression, In times past, boys would be spending time chopping wood or working int he fields and they would learn to use knives to carve wood or whittle things or make things. That energy would be channeled in a productive direction. What about giving him a pocketknife (that an adult keeps for him but that he can use under supervision for carving wood or whittling). Or maybe give him some physical work he can do outside.. cleaning up a yard, or mowing grass (with a manual mower...I wouldn't give a 7 yo a gas or electric mower), or raking leaves (in the fall).


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would have flipped out. If I thought my child didn't know the seriousness of threatening another person with a weapon I would find a way to make that clear. If she did know how serious it is I would seek counseling fast unless I was absolutely certain it was an attention seeking thing gone to far, in which case I would only seek counseling if I wasn't able to effectively help her find other ways to get attention. With siblings being involved this could be a cry for attention gone too far thing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

DS2 doesn't seem to understand the seriousness of much of anything. It's extremely difficult to get through to him. DH and I have resorted to absolutely outrageous threats, which we both know is stupid, because we just can't seem to make him get it. His behaviour is very attention seeking - but he gets more of my attention than his three siblings combined.

He's very difficult to deal with. I think we're going to have to start the process of having him evaluated again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> Or maybe give him some physical work he can do outside.. cleaning up a yard, or mowing grass (with a manual mower...I wouldn't give a 7 yo a gas or electric mower), or raking leaves (in the fall).


I would love to do this, but we don't have a yard.


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

If he's so defiant and has no boundaries, I would find a good family counselor. I had a friend whose son was like this and their pediatrician also said he probably had ODD. He's 10 now and somewhat better, but the things he would do had my jaw on the floor. I have twin boys the same age and they would never have considered doing the things this kid did.

Some of the doozies I heard about:

-- stomping on neighbor's flowers, refusing to stop and when finally threatened with a spanking he said, "come and get me."

-- Screaming in a rage for 2 hours when the wrong pizza was delivered

-- Hitting younger sister daily

-- Refusing to go to school and having to be carried into the school office (literally kicking and screaming)

-- staying up until midnight or later because he would throw tantrums (keeping the rest of the family awake) if his parents tried to force him to go to bed

No form of discipline-- and they tried many I didn't agree with-- worked. Finally they saw a family counselor when he was about 7 and stronger than his petite mom, who couldn't control him at all. The counselor told them their kid was wired differently than most and he needed to make more of his own decisions than most kids his age. Letting go of some of the control helped with some of the behavior problems. But the counselor also gave the family strategies for dealing with the hitting and tantruming. I don't know all the details of it, but a year later, she told me things had improved. He's still over the top but they can take him out in public now without being afraid he'll run away or freak out. I think there are still issues with his sister, but they're not afraid for her safety anymore.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I can't honestly describe ds2's issues very well - it's hard even in person, and almost impossible online. He's not really particularly defiant, although I can see why he comes across that way. He thinks most of the things he does are funny, If people aren't amused when he's being "funny", he feels rejected and becomes amazingly upset. While he does occasionally act out with his sisters (such as the knife incident that prompted this post), he's more likely to be found hitting himself in the head and calling himself a jerk, an idiot, stupid, etc. He's quite destructive at times, but it's almost always tied to rejection (or sometimes, when someone takes something of his) - his older sister doesn't want to play with him, so he throws one of her favourite toys across the room, or tears up one of her drawings/paintings, or he wants to hug his little sister, and she doesn't want a hug, so he pushes her or grabs something from her hands.

When I talk about boundaries, I mean all kinds of boundaries. He doesn't get the idea that other people have personal space. When he's in classes, he frequently speaks up at totally inappropriate times (mostly, it makes instructors and/or spectators laugh...but he honestly has no idea why they're laughing, because he has no idea that he really shouldn't have piped up right then, or said what he said). If someone is playing a videogame that he likes to watch, he'll hang on them (right in their face, sometimes holding an arm) and offer a constant stream of unwanted commentary or game advice (drives his big brother crazy). Attempts to address these things tend to trigger a "tantrum", but it's of the "you all hate me - I'm worthless" type. He honestly can't understand why people might not like that...despite the fact that he frequently doesn't like it when people do it to him, either. With that behaviour, or any other, people can say, "please don't do that"...."please don't do that"...."please don't do that"...."stop that"..."stop that"..."STOP that!"...and when they eventually lose their temper, he ends up crying in a corner, saying "why doesn't anybody like me?". He almost never bears a grudge about anything - will be mad enough to hit someone, and wanting to play with them again in 10 minutes - and has no understanding that other people aren't necessarily over an incident that quickly. So-and-so doesn't want to play with him, because they don't like him - not because he pegged them in a head with a pinecone 10 minutes ago...things like that.

*sigh*
I just ended up yelling at him again. We're trying to clean up. I asked him to put some clothes by the washing machine. He came back, with his foot wrapped up in dd1's favourite dress, dragging it along the floor, and can't understand why I'm upset. I asked how he'd like it if I damaged his sweater, and he started crying, saying "I love that sweater". I screamed (in sheer frustration - and I'm not proud of myself, because I know he just does not process this stuff the way most people do) that dd1 loves that dress, too - it's her favourite. And, he just said, "well, I didn't know". I actually think he wouldn't have dragged it if he'd known it was her favourite (unless he was mad at her), but he just doesn't get that it's not okay to do that to other people's stuff...period. Prior to that, he was helping me while I was putting a string around our floor lamp (hoping dd2 will stop knocking it over - she smashed the glass shade to bits yesterday, and knocked it over again about 20-30 minutes ago). He was very willing, but he also tends to try to do what he thinks I need, instead of what I actually ask for...because I was precariously perched, I wasn't as patient as I could have been, so he's probably feeling bad, because I was terse. He's amazingly sensitive...and people don't see it, as a rule. He's also very friendly and outgoing - adults mostly really like him, but he has HUGE social issues with other kids.

And, on the flipside of all this, he's the first one to share the last berry on his plate, or piece of chocolate. He spent most of last year reguarly assuming the super-hero identity of "Toddler Saver" and looking out for dd2, a little boy in our townhouse complex, and the younger brother of one of his homeschooling friends. He slipped into my bedroom this morning, saw I was sleeping, kissed me on the cheek and left (I was just starting to wake up - didn't even know who it was, until he mentioned it later). If anyone in the family is upset, he's the first one to run over and give them a hug (causes him problems with dd1, because she mostly prefers to be left alone, and then he feels rejected - again).

We've had a few real doozies over the years (one, in particular, really blew me away - a major meltdown, including kicking me in the stomach and trying to choke me, because he wasn't allowed to stay at a playdate that dd1 was having). But, they're generally triggered by rejection, not defiance...and they're really not the norm, although they're so amazingly draining that they feel as if they happen more often than they do.


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## Luckiestgirl (Nov 10, 2004)

If your gut feeling is that he's not in danger of hurting anyone, I would suggest you try to involve your son in martial arts, woodworking, scouting, a fishing club, archery, a traditional sleepover camp--anything that will give him a chance to develop real, hands-on skills. My son doesn't run around with knives but does engage in some attention-seeking behavior that seems tied to his need to be doing meaningful work. Scouting has been good for him in this area, as has a week-long day camp he attended. Kids who know how, and are allowed to use, sharp objects responsibly typically don't feel the need to play around with them.


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

It doesn't matter what the intentions of a 7-year-old who is chasing his sisters with a knife are - he can easily hurt someone very seriously in that situation regardless of his intentions.

Stormbride, if your house has doors that lock, you have a way to put the knives out of reach, and you should use it. Your ds has now clearly informed you that he cannot be unsupervised with knives, and he cannot be unsupervised in the morning, so you also need to get up when he does so you can be alert to these situations as they develop.

There's no need to have a fine parenting moment when a kid brandishes a knife at you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm afraid I lack the telepathic abilities necessary to wake up when he does. I'm also unlikely to be "alert" to these situations, as I'm beyond exhausted myself. I'm barely able to keep my eyes open all day as it is.

Quite frankly, dealing with ds2 is more than I've got in me. I'm actually sitting here crying just at the thought of dealing with having to lock my knives in the bedroom every night. It may well need to be done, but I'm not looking forward to locking up my broom, my meat tenderizing hammer, canned goods, etc. The real problem here isn't the knives. It's ds2. He just doesn't get it., and I'm clearly not the right parent to be dealing with it.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I'm afraid I lack the telepathic abilities necessary to wake up when he does. I'm also unlikely to be "alert" to these situations, as I'm beyond exhausted myself. I'm barely able to keep my eyes open all day as it is.
> 
> Quite frankly, dealing with ds2 is more than I've got in me. I'm actually sitting here crying just at the thought of dealing with having to lock my knives in the bedroom every night. It may well need to be done, but I'm not looking forward to locking up my broom, my meat tenderizing hammer, canned goods, etc. The real problem here isn't the knives. It's ds2. He just doesn't get it., and I'm clearly not the right parent to be dealing with it.


C'mon, stop crying.







He's a 7 year old boy with some behavior problems. You've dealt with way worse than this. You are the right parent to deal with it- you are his parent. The issue here isnt the knives, it's the behavior overall. It sounds like you are overwhelmed and you need help to deal with him. What about some extra activities like pp mentioned. What about camp? Does he get along with others well enough to do something like that? Where is your teenager? Can (s)he help?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> C'mon, stop crying.
> 
> ...


My teenager isn't home very much. He helps with the kids when he is, but he's moving on with own life. He has work. He just came back from a four day visit with his father. He has a girlfriend.

I haven't really noticed any overnight camps that he could attend (age limits and such), but he does do some other activities. Most of them have wound up for the summer, except for Tae Kwon Do. (He's taking it one night a week for July, but not for August, as we're going to be away for 10-11 days.) Due to some major issues with the other kids, he's indoors, unless I can go out to supervise him, for....well, I don't know how long, exactly. I don't get him out as much as I should, because it effing drains me. I took them to the pool in our complex today (something I'd be doing every day that we were home, in a perfect world - it's the second time since the pool opened at the end of May). We were there for about an hour, and I came back so utterly exhausted that I could barely face unloading the dishwasher. Up until a couple weeks ago, he was in swimming two days a week, circus arts one day a week, and Tae Kwon Do one day a week.

I'm sure I do need some help, but I can't figure out where to get it. I've woken up some mornings in tears, just from knowing I have to deal wtih ds2 all day. And, at the same time, he's one of the sweetest kids I've ever known. I just can't maintain the level of emotional, mental and physical energy that he requires.

I need to get him evaluated. But, after my initial attempt (last July!), I folded. If I don't have the energy to deal with him, I certainly don't have the energy to deal with the medical crap.


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

You can buy a motion sensor alarm for his bedroom door. Or some jingle bells, if he sleeps with the door closed.

Stormbride, I sympathize with your frustration at the difficulties inherent in creating a safe environment for a kid who is having serious boundary issues. It is WORK. It's time-consuming, and frustrating, and has to be combined with more time-consuming, exhausting supervision. While he may not realize it, and while you wish he wasn't, your ds is asking you in the clearest possible way for a lot of direct supervision. You can sign him up for whatever energy-burning thing you want - it will probably be good for him, he'll love it, and he'll continue to seek attention from you in any way he can. The best, safest, soundest choice in front of you is to give him that attention. You know he can force you to pay attention - he just has to do something wildly unsafe. You are all better off if he gets your attention without having to resort to reckless extremities first. I hear that you're exhausted, and I know what I'm suggesting is difficult, and I really do sympathize.

I also sympathize with the feelings of your other children, who were so scared they had to lock themselves in a room and call you. They shouldn't have to live like that. You can't give in to exhaustion.

Who can help you? Dad, grandparents, local agencies?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> You can buy a motion sensor alarm for his bedroom door. Or some jingle bells, if he sleeps with the door closed.
> 
> ...


My dad is an alcoholic, who I haven't talked to, except on Father's Day (because I had to drop off his taxes, as I'd had them on my desk for months, and he's facing jail time) in over a year. My mom and stepdad are working themselves to death to maintain the small company that's paying her mortgage...and helping out with my sister's kids, as needed, which is way more necessary than my situation. (Yes - I'm serious. They've had CPS involved twice, and my nephew is profoundly gifted and is on the autism spectrum. His behavioural issues are a lot like ds2's, only more extreme, and more frequent.)

I have no friends who live nearby. I don't trust my neighbours, with good reason. Only one of them is home during the day, anyway, and she has a six month old. Local agencies? What kind of agencies?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Basically, stik: Your posts have left me feeling as though my only possible option is to give ds2 up for adoption. I'm serious. You're telling me that I'm not a good enough parent, and can't be a good enough parent, for ds2. I don't think that's what you meant to say, but it's still what you said.

I think this is just a kick in the teeth for the number of times people said stupid things like, "is he a good baby?" and I said even stupider things, like "this is cheating - he's so easy that I don't even feel as if I'm parenting". HAHAHAHAHA I know better than to tempt fate like that. Easiest baby in the world. *sigh*


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

You need to keep your kids safe. If one of them is chasing the other two with knives, they are not safe. I don't know your situation, so I don't know your options. Right now, you aren't talking about parenting strategies. Your kids were in a life-threatening situation this morning, and you seem to be saying there's no way you can prevent it from happening again tomorrow morning. You need to break out of that rut.

People have suggested camp for your son, but it's probably easier to find a camp for a 9yo than a 7yo. You could get her out of the house for a week or two. Daycare for your 3yo might give you some time to focus. Where is your dh? Have you described this incident to your son's doctor? What about your doctor? Who is treating your exhaustion?

I regret that my tone has seemed insensitive. You clearly need some help. Who can you call?

I've seen you around MDC for years, and I know you are a loving, caring parent. I absolutely do not think you should give up any of your kids.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Storm, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm having some issues with my DS - not like yours, and not violent, but issues that effect our home life significantly. And I completely understand being overwhelmed by the medical hoops to jump through to even find out how to get help. It's overwhelming and exhausting, and when you are already at your wits' end, it's too much. But I would definitely encourage you to keep trying, because you need help, but you need answers to get that help.

I don't know how the system works in Canada. I've had to make countless phone calls to figure out how to get DS evaluated in the US. It's horrible that it takes so much persistence and work to get help for a child who needs it. But in the meantime, please get to a counselor for you and/or DS if possible. Have the counselor guide you through the process, or at least be a sympathetic ear while you are going through it. There will only be improvement if you get this figured out, as daunting as that seems. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, I have to believe, and that's why I keep pushing for answers with my kid. There is help out there, and I'll get there after all these evaluations and hoops I have to jump through to get a diagnosis for my son.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Set your alarm and get up before the kids. Go to bed at an earlier time. Put the kids to bed at a reasonable time. Every night. Wake them up in the am after you have had coffee and a bit of time to clean up the house or shower.

After the kids are in bed, have your you time to decompress.

Get him re-evaluated.

My son had similar issues. I got him evaluated, into therapy and on medication. Guess what happened? His reading went up TWO grade levels. His math scores went up. He made friends. He isn't drugged into a stupor of compliance. He is medicated so that his brain responds appropriately to stimuli, thought process, frustrations and disappointments. His medication allows him to lead a normal, healthy life and the ability to function and have his talents blossom.

I had six kids in eleven years. I know tired. I know exhaustion. I had twins after the six kids, right on the heals of my daughters death. I still managed to get things done.

I live on a farm now. I am up at 6 am every day and don't go to bed till midnight. I milk my cow, feed all my animals and am back up to the house before kids wake up. The only time I sit down during the day is to pee. I have numerous health issues. I've buried two children and dealt with issues that make others wonder how I have managed. It's simple. I chose to have these children. They didn't ask to come into this world. I have to parent them even when I don't want to. I have to give them my all, tired, depressed, sick and hurting. They can't be patented only when I feel up to it. I have no choice but to take care of business. Well not true, I do have a choice. I could choose to wallow in misery and give up. I chose to live life fully and to allow my kids to grow up in a functional home.

Feel free to search my history and see what I've dealt with. Feel free to pm me and ask. I know what it's like to be overwhelmed and exhausted. I know what it's like to grieve a lost child. I also know that I make the choice each day to be functional and present for my children and the grandbaby I am raising. It's not easy. But I do it. I do it for my kids. Because they deserve it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> Set your alarm and get up before the kids. Go to bed at an earlier time. Put the kids to bed at a reasonable time. Every night. Wake them up in the am after you have had coffee and a bit of time to clean up the house or shower.
> After the kids are in bed, have your you time to decompress.
> ...


That was harsh.

I know your history - I remember you. But, I'm not you. And, I don't have it. On a "go to bed at midnight, and get up at six" schedule, I'd probably be in the hospital in less than a month. (My sister and one of my good friends can manage on six hours sleep. I can't.) The last time I tried to push myself through severe sleep deprivation, I ended up with bronchitis, followed less than a month later by pneumonia - and no matter how awesome you are, I actually can't parent when I'm delirious with fever. I can't "put the kids to bed at a reasonable hour", because they don't stay there. (Well, dd2 doesn't, and dd1 doesn't these days, either.)

I'm still getting up every goddamned morning, which is already a WHOLE lot more than I feel up to.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> You need to keep your kids safe. If one of them is chasing the other two with knives, they are not safe. I don't know your situation, so I don't know your options. Right now, you aren't talking about parenting strategies. Your kids were in a life-threatening situation this morning, and you seem to be saying there's no way you can prevent it from happening again tomorrow morning. You need to break out of that rut.
> People have suggested camp for your son, but it's probably easier to find a camp for a 9yo than a 7yo. You could get her out of the house for a week or two. Daycare for your 3yo might give you some time to focus. Where is your dh? Have you described this incident to your son's doctor? What about your doctor? Who is treating your exhaustion?
> ...


I have no idea where there are any camps, of the overnight type. The only ones I've ever heard of are Scout camps, and my kids aren't in Scouts. In any case, right at the moment, if sent my daughter out of the house for a week or two, she'd fall apart. Her issues don't impinge on family life like ds2's do, but she's having a bloody awful time right now (onset of puberty, on top of an already highly volatile and sensitive temperament - the pediatrician thinks ds2 has ADHD, but I'm pretty sure dd1 actually does). She's very nervous about people she doesn't know, and would feel that she was being punished if I sent her off to camp.

My son's doctor is my doctor. We generally only see pediatricians by referral .The last referral he gave me was completely useless, and is part of the reason that I've been psyching myself up again for almost two weeks to call for a new one, to someone who might actually listen to a goddamned word I say (not likely, but possible - the other one sure as s**t didn't). I don't trust doctors as far as I can throw them. The fact that I need to involve them in my life makes me despair of anything ever working for us again - ever. If it were only me, I'd never see a doctor again. As for my exhaustion - nobody's treating it. They don't know what's causing it. As per my last blood tests, my thyroid was okay, and I wasn't anemic, and "you have four kids, you know". I'm pretty sure the fact that dd2 runs on about seven hours sleep a night isn't helping. (She's awake right now, nursing to sleep, which is why I'm not in bed yet.)

DH is at work. Where else would he be? He helps a ton, but he's burning out, too.

I'm not going to give ds2 up. It would probably be in his best interests, but I couldn't live with it. .


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

No, you aren't me. You are you, with your own issues, beliefs, goals, etc.

I wasn't trying to put you down. I told you, I get it. I understand. I've been there. I offered ideas on how to maybe make things a bit easier.

It's exhausting having a child with special needs. I have eight kids, six living. Three of my living children have special needs. That's part of the reason we have our grandchild.

I know how frustrating it is to try and get help for your kids. I know how frustrating it can be to get help for a child. I know how frustrating it is to get help for your own issues. I know what it's like to want to run away and start a new life and not deal with things. I get it.

You are at your limit. I'm guessing your son is too. I know that before I got my DS the help he needed he was a hot mess. He was barely functioning in school and at home. He told me he wanted to die. He told me he was rotten and awful. He didn't understand why he acted the way he did.

But I fought for him. I got him help. He's not the same kid he was a year ago. My sweet boy likes himself. He can sit down and play with his toys. He can deal with things appropriately. Is he perfect? Nope. He's a normal 8 yo kid. This afternoon, we spent two hours while the baby napped, cuddled up in my bed, playing games on my phone. A year ago? He couldn't have done that. A year ago he would have come unhinged and thrown things across the room at being asked to sit still for two hours. Today? He asked if we could snuggle and play games. He asked!

A year ago I couldn't let him out of my sight for two minutes. Today? He can run around the farm, interact with our animals without me standing over him. He is gentle, thoughtful, kind and so tenderhearted. He is blossoming.

You can do this. You can bring about the changes you want for your family.

It won't be easy. It will be hard work, tears, frustration and more. But the payoffs? Priceless!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know what? This whole thread was a huge mistake. I'm not going to delete it, but I'm more depressed right now than I've been in years. You guys are really just reinforcing what I've felt for a long time - I'm not the right parent for ds2. I'm the one he's stuck with, but I'm not the right one. I'm a fantastically crappy advocate for him (just as I've always been for myself). He needs medical help, and I need to have the entire medical profession as far away from me as it's possible to get them. I have to suck that up, but I still can't communicate with medpros. I'll call Monday...I'm 99% sure it will be another farce, but a 1% chance of actual help is better than 0%.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I think stik and dfb have good advice. You have to protect your kids. You are not even considering any of their suggestions. If you can not arrange to be awake before your son, then you need to ask your DH to help you. Someone has to make sure that your other children are not in danger. I hope you can figure something out.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Make the call. That's a start! If you don't get anywhere, call someone else. Keep calling till you get someone to listen.

With my 4th dd, we ran through every option our insurance had and were still fighting to get her help. It took years to get her the help she needed. But she got it. She graduated high school last month. She is living on her own. She is living a life we never thought possible. We didn't think she'd even make it to her 18th birthday she was so hellbent on self destructing!

I'm not trying to be harsh. I don't know how many ways I can tell you that I get it, because I do. I'm sharing our success stories to give you hope and maybe inspiration.

I function on six hours of uninterrupted sleep. However, if my grandbaby wakes up at night, as toddlers are apt to do, I get cranky. I don't function as well. But if I get it, I'm good to go.

I get up before everyone else and stay up later so I get my downtime. That is vital to my being able to get through the day. I get my coffee, I head to the barn. I take care of me while I take care of my animals. Having that time allows me to be a better mom. Having time for yourself allows you to refill your cup so that you can take care of others.

Maybe you can go for a walk by yourself while your dh watches the kids for a half hour. Take a bubble bath. Light some candles. Read a book. Do something, anything for you. Do it every day. It's not selfish. It's self care. And it's okay to take care of you so that you can take care of others.

If you need ideas on navigating getting an evaluation for your son, ask. I'm sure there are many of us who can offer helpful hints on that. If you need help finding temporary fixes till you can get him in, I'm sure that's available here too.

One thing that helped my DS immensely was sorting things. He loves to sort legos, blocks, rocks, anything. I got him bins he can sort things into. It helps him self soothe and gives him a focus. Prior to his dx, it was the one thing I could count on being able to get him to do and sit still with.

He's also a pokemon junkie. We made a list of things he had to do each morning. Eat, dress, brush his teeth, make his bed. If he did those things he would get to pick a card from the pack of cards I had. I pick them up at walmart and he loves being able to add to his collection. He willingly does his morning routine to be able to get a card.

I picked up a three ring binder and storage sheets for his cards. He takes immense pride in showing people his cards and telling them how he earned them.

Safety issues? I have all medications in a small tool box with a combo lock. Scissors and knives went in there before he was able to be safe with them.

House rules are posted on poster board in the kitchen. Consequences are spelled out too. Simple things like no hitting, speaking kindly, etc. Consequences can be no tv time, no nintendo DS, earlier bedtime, etc.

Rewards in our home are (aside from pokemon cards) easy things. A story from mom or dad. A trip to the gas station for a frozen yogurt, snuggletime, "sleepovers" in my bedroom, choosing dinner, helping make cookies or helping feed the baby animals.

You just have to find what works and be consistent. It's taken ME a lot of work to be able to be consistent. I'm a very fly by the seat of my pants person. I hate schedules and routine. I happen to have kids who thrive on it so I've had to adapt.

A few weeks ago one of my dd's took all the kids for the weekend. Omg! The freedom! The ability to not have to cook for anyone (dh was working nights and sleeping in the day), being able to read, clean, pee without interruption and not have to answer to anyone was fantastic! Five hours into it? I was lonely and honestly, a bit bored. It took all I had not to go get them! They had a blast! I was pretty miserable. Lmao!

Anyway, if you need help, ask. It's there for you. You can do this!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Oh, Lisa. I wish you wouldn't feel depressed about this. He sounds like an intense kid - similar to one of my 3 boys, or my DD at times, fwiw. I can't tell you if he needs more structure or guidance or therapy or meds - b/c, I don't know him and am not a know-it-all-expert. But I know that parenting certain growning boys is rough, to put it mildly. You are the best mom he has. Remember that.

All I know is with my kids, they need a whole lot of separation from each other in order to not kill one another. They are all in summer camp due to necessity, b/c I recently got a full-time job. 2 boys, and 1 girl, are in one camp; the youngest is in a summer daycare camp on his own. They manage to keep the older boys engaged enough to a point where there isn't any blood.

Anyhow, I know summer is halfway over, and I'm not ppreally suggesting camp/daycare as an ends to a means, but I know it has saved my ass as my boys have gotten older and wilder this year. If you have one that could possibly benefit from outside help, believe you me, I realize how hard it can be to have all the kids home together for extended periods of time.

It's rough, but if you can find a way to send him to individual activities or some sort of school away from home in the fall, I think you'll see a lessoning of those horrifying behaviors while he's under your watch. It's rough to be with the same small group of kids (such as siblings) for long amounts of time. Especiallyfkr a kid who reacts violently or who had any kind of overtly sensorial reactions.

It's just too much. For them and for you as a parent.

There are days when I think, WTF? I shouldn't be these kids' parents, or a parent at all, for that matter. But it's just b/c I feel like things are out of control or not within my control (sorry, but anyone who thinks they can manage or punish certain kids into an expected behavior all the time, certainly haven't dealt with specific intense older children). And that's may when outside help in some form is needed. But please don't feel alone or defeated or unworthy as a parent. This shit sucks sometimes. For real. You need support and guidance. That's all.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

You are the right parent for you son. It may not feel like it right now. But you are. Muddle through the best you can. Lock up those knives, the medicine, the matches and anything else you know are dangerous. Get a locking safe if you have to.

Can you write out a list of things that your son has done that concern you? And then do the same for your daughter. Then send those lists with your husband to the doctor. Seriously, if you're as put off by doctors as you sound, then it's time for the other adult member of your family to step in. Even if it means taking a day off work. Ask him to demand a referral to someone who knows something about kids with self-regulation issues. I know you disagree with the diagnosis, but your post sounds an awful lot like ADHD to me -- no sense of boundaries, trying to be funny and getting mad when it flops, inability to take rejection and over-reacting, angry at himself, lack of ability to see the consequences, lack of learning from the consequences. It's exhausting, but as DragonflyBlue noted, medication can make a huge difference.

Have you had a counselor? You've been through a lot. You're exhausted and you sound depressed. Given what you've gone through, and the fact that you have at least 2 high maintenance kids, a child leaving home (added stress even if it's nice), and a toddler, you need help. I don't know how you're going to get it, but you could start with someone to talk to. If you can find a good counselor or perhaps a social worker trained as a counselor for you, that can be a real boon. They don't have to be 'medical' people. Just someone for you to talk to, to help you sort out your feelings and help you plan. You're not in a space where you can do that right now. It's OK. You will be again.

Are there any teenagers in the area that you would trust? What I really think you need is a mother's helper. My mom had one when my siblings were small and it was a huge help. I came along later when my older sibs were able to help with me and my brother. If you have an energetic teenager who can hang out with your son (preferably outside), even for a few hours a day, it would be great. What you want is a 13-14 year old -- lots of energy, old enough to be responsible. Make them leave their iPod/iPhone with you, and send your son outside to lpay.

And then I'm going to ask a loaded question: Where's your husband and what can he do to help lighten some of this burden? Maybe he can find a day camp where your son can get out some of his energy and you can regain your composure and do a little bonding with your older daughter who needs it. As I said above, I think he needs to take a larger role in this. When a family is in a crisis, it cannot be one parent who deals with it all.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Lisa, your son needs help. But you need to work on your too. I hate to hear that things are so hard for you right now and I'm sorry you are where you are right now. I have no other advice other than to let you know I'm thinking of you. You deserve to be happy.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.







I can definitely understand how hard it is to think of going the medical route. Have you considered alternative treatments...dietary intervention, supplements?. Maybe start by looking into Feingold or GAPS, supplementing with high quality fermented fish oil? Maybe do some reading on dietary interventions for children with issues similar to what your DS has? Just some suggestions.. I'm a big believer in how diet can influence behavior, so the first thing I would look at would be dietary changes.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> He needs medical help, and I need to have the entire medical profession as far away from me as it's possible to get them. I have to suck that up, but I still can't communicate with medpros. I'll call Monday...I'm 99% sure it will be another farce, but a 1% chance of actual help is better than 0%.


When I have to be in a situation in which I have a hard time communicating, I've found that writing a script works. If need be, maybe you could write a letter and read it to the doctor. Or write a FAQ about your son?

I will often, for things like this, have a bulleted list of points I want to make sure I make, and questions I want to make sure I get answered. I have found it helps a lot when I'm otherwise overwhelmed about the fact I have to *communicate* in a way I'm not comfortable with (in my case, phone calls freak me the heck out and I studiously avoid them).

Last: Your DS sounds a lot like one of DS's friends. I'm not sure of this boy's exact diagnosis, but I know that he spent several years getting "Pragmatics therapy" through the school system (it was part of their speech therapy program). If you google that, you get hits on autism sites, but please don't disregard it because of that -- this boy is definitely *not* diagnosed with autism. Much of what you say about your son -- the anger, the self-blame, the inappropriate responses -- remind me *so* much of this boy and *also* come up in the sites that describe pragmatics therapy.


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I have no way to enforce it, so he won't do it. To give you an idea what ds2 is like, a pediatrician I saw last year gave him a tentative diagnosis of ADHD and ODD. I happen to disagree with her diagnosis (she was ignoring quite a few aspects of what I was telling her), but I can see why she reached that conclusion. He doesn't understand boundaries very well.


In your place, I would seek treatment for ADHD. This sounds like classic ADHD and as someone who had it as a child (and still has it) it really crippled my ability to learn social cues and I was way, way behind in terms of social skills until well into adulthood. It made it hard for me to keep jobs and friends. The time to get this treated is now.

The treatment for ADHD includes both medication and structure/organizational skills and sometimes social skills groups as well. Structure is really key because it frees up mental energy, and for people with ADHD, mental energy is at a premium because we need much more of it to do things like focus, listen, obey rules, remember other peoples' boundaries...

I mean, right now what you describe is a child who has serious difficulty learning social cues and controlling his impulses. He has little to no structure. So all day he spends trying to figure out what to do, having no clue what is appropriate, and then being told off for doing the wrong thing. This is ADHD hell and it does no one any good.


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh, also, in terms of him being sensitive to rejection, I was rejected all. the. time. as a child. Why? Because I wasn't pleasant to be around due to the untreated ADHD and didn't know what it was like to have even one day, just one, where I didn't mess up or do something wrong, no matter how hard I was trying. That felt tremendously unfair because I was trying SO HARD. Your son is obviously trying very hard but he is incapable of succeeding without help. You keep trying to teach him empathy, but empathy isn't the problem, he has plenty of it. He just can't put it into action because he has a disability. When he self-harms, it is because he feels enormously guilty that he is letting everyone down. Every day that goes by where he thinks this is a failure of his empathy, or where someone explodes on him and he doesn't know why, is another day where he is building low self-esteem and feeling like he is bad and unlovable.

It also sounds like he might be gifted and, frankly, bored. Many children have ADHD and are gifted. I can't describe to you the level of trouble a gifted child with poor impulse control can get into--I don't have to describe it to you--you already know. They do things like chase their siblings around with knives.

I am not trying to blame or shame you, and I know it's coming across like that, and for that I apologize. I know this is a difficult situation. But you need to realize that not doing anything is, in and of itself, a choice, and in this case, a very bad one.


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> You know what? This whole thread was a huge mistake. I'm not going to delete it, but I'm more depressed right now than I've been in years. You guys are really just reinforcing what I've felt for a long time - I'm not the right parent for ds2. I'm the one he's stuck with, but I'm not the right one. I'm a fantastically crappy advocate for him (just as I've always been for myself). He needs medical help, and I need to have the entire medical profession as far away from me as it's possible to get them. I have to suck that up, but I still can't communicate with medpros. I'll call Monday...I'm 99% sure it will be another farce, but a 1% chance of actual help is better than 0%.


Also, this doesn't make you the wrong mother for him, it makes you tremendously brave. Also, if I'm not mistaken your son also has another parent who can make these kinds of calls, too?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I'll lend another vote for ADHD. My husband has it, and we're pretty sure our daughter has it too (and maybe our son too, but not as rage-y as our daughter). The situations and reactions you describe, the lack of impulse control, being held hostage by his emotions, the aggresion after rejection - all here too. Not as severe as your son's, but still here. Misunderstandings, misreading people, jumping to inaccurate conclusions, thinking people hate her. All of it.

I will also give another shout out to diet - when she's eating "clean" (no aritificial colors/flavors/fast food/junk food/dairy - yep, dairy is HUGE for both of our kids behaviorally) things are so, so much more manageable. When we are weak/stupid and she's eating those things semi-regularly, it goes down the toilet. We've figured out that colors/flavors/preservatives make her hyper/impulsive; dairy makes her ragey. Our son has similar problems with colors/flavorings, but dairy makes him weepy/self hating. It's unreal to me how much it can affect them (and probably me, too, if I'd ever give up drinking milk and eating cheese long enough, but "I'm fine, I cope" denialism keeps me doing it - sigh).

I'm not saying it will "cure" him, but I would seriously do this as a (relatively easy) first step and see what happens. It seemed daunting to clear everything out of our kitchen and start saying NO to things we had fairly regularly (which grossed me out but it was a trap/addiction and we got caught in the cycle?), but it's been over a year now and we've had great success. We go off the wagon for sure, but then we tighten things up again and we're back on track.

And please, please don't think you can't parent him or you're not the right parent for him. I've spent some time over the past month allowing myself to mourn the loss of what I thought our family was going to be like. With 2 very active, low-impulse control, emotional but also bright, creative kids in the house, it is not the calm, harmonious home I envisioned. And for a while I was getting resentful; but that was not useful at all, so I decided to just let myself mourn the loss of what I thought I wanted, and start to embrace what I actually have. When we're "on", things are pretty damn good, so my vision actually wasn't so far off track after all. Hang in there mama, I've "known" you for many many years here and I'm so sorry you're having such troubles.


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## maeby (Nov 4, 2007)

I know how it feels to think you aren't the right parent for your kid. But that's depression talking. I think maybe he just needs a different kind of parenting then you hoped to do. For example I wanted to homeschool my son but have realize that we are just not the right combo of personality types for it. He does much better learning from someone that not me an I do better parenting Him when I gets break on a daily basis. Is it an option to send your DS to school this fall?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I dealt with a similar situation when my son was that age. I don't mean to be harsh but you have to deal with it and making excuses about every single thing is not getting you anywhere. I have lived it, I know that it is completely, completely overwhelming. But when your 7 year old (mine) is attacking you with a hockey stick and your little girls are having to lock themselves in their room for safety something has to give. It is hard to get help and it is hard to keep everyone safe. And exhaustion? Hah! I know exhaustion. At the time I was dealing with this my youngest didn't sleep AT ALL. Plus I have multiple chronic health problems. But I am the mother. That is my job. I made sure I was awake and around every single second he was. I never left the kids unsupervised. If I went to the bathroom he had to sit outside the door and sing the whole time I was in there. It was that bad. If I wanted a shower I waited until my DH was home. It was completely and utter hell. For years. But we did seek help and he did get diagnosed, and yes medicated. He also started school (we used to homeschool but an overwhelmed mom homeschooling is an incredibly bad idea IMO and kids who've lived in this situation need outside help - all of the kids) and counselling. He is now 11.5 and doing so well. He is still medicated, will be his whole life, and he receives tons of amazing resources through his school. He has an aide, resource help (he also has multiple learning disabilities), an occupational therapist and many other people helping him. He is also involved in activities outside of the home to keep him active. A lot of healing has had to be done in our family and between him and his sisters but we never gave up and we are all the better for it. I know when you are overwhelmed it seems like nothing will work but do me a favour. Go back and read through all of your responses on this thread. Every single solitary suggestion you have shot down. Nothing will work at all, it is all too hard. I know it may feel that way but you do not have the option of quitting. Your son needs help, he needs a solid assessment. I recommend an entire team, not just a single psychiatrist. My son was assessed by a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a social worker who also did multiple home visits. They need to see the entire picture to be able to give an accurate diagnosis. I highly recommend putting all the kids in school. Best thing I ever did. They are all happy there and I get the break I need to be the mom I need to be. As for the immediate situation you need to keep all the kids safety. As I said before, you need to do what I did. No, you cannot sleep when your kids are awake. No, you cannot leave them unsupervised. Yes, you need to put all the knives away every single day. We used to hide ours on the back on the fridge but if yours is a climber I recommend something with a lock. Is it a pain in the butt to have to do all this? Yes it sure is. But it is the situation you are in right now and only one person can take the bull by the horns and change things and that's you. I am not trying to make you feel bad. I have lived it and I know it's hard as hell. But something has to give, and fast.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 

I function on six hours of uninterrupted sleep. However, if my grandbaby wakes up at night, as toddlers are apt to do, I get cranky. I don't function as well. But if I get it, I'm good to go.
I get up before everyone else and stay up later so I get my downtime. That is vital to my being able to get through the day. I get my coffee, I head to the barn. I take care of me while I take care of my animals. Having that time allows me to be a better mom. Having time for yourself allows you to refill your cup so that you can take care of others.
I've been trying to carve out that downtime for a year - I strongly suspect it's one of the reasons I'm now so far beyond exhausted that I can't even remember what functional feels like. I have a choice between downtime or enough sleep - and I need both to function.

Maybe you can go for a walk by yourself while your dh watches the kids for a half hour. Take a bubble bath. Light some candles. Read a book. Do something, anything for you. Do it every day. It's not selfish. It's self care. And it's okay to take care of you so that you can take care of others.
Going for a walk isn't an option right now...should be again in the near future, but it's not right now. It's not a break, though. A walk leaves me in so much pain that I just want to curl up in a ball and die.

If you need ideas on navigating getting an evaluation for your son, ask. I'm sure there are many of us who can offer helpful hints on that. If you need help finding temporary fixes till you can get him in, I'm sure that's available here too.
There's no way to get an evaluation without dealing with doctors, so there's really no help anyone can give me. It has to be done, but I'd rather wade through a pit of tarantulas.

One thing that helped my DS immensely was sorting things. He loves to sort legos, blocks, rocks, anything. I got him bins he can sort things into. It helps him self soothe and gives him a focus. Prior to his dx, it was the one thing I could count on being able to get him to do and sit still with.
He's also a pokemon junkie. We made a list of things he had to do each morning. Eat, dress, brush his teeth, make his bed. If he did those things he would get to pick a card from the pack of cards I had. I pick them up at walmart and he loves being able to add to his collection. He willingly does his morning routine to be able to get a card.
I picked up a three ring binder and storage sheets for his cards. He takes immense pride in showing people his cards and telling them how he earned them.

DS2 likes screens - computer games and tv...that's about it. I can't think of anything else that will keep him still for more than about two minutes.

Safety issues? I have all medications in a small tool box with a combo lock. Scissors and knives went in there before he was able to be safe with them.

That sounds great. I have absolutely no idea where I'd put a tool box (and, no - I'm not just inventing issues - we're massively overloaded with stuff...which is something else I'm trying to address, with extremely minimal - but at least some - progress). I'm also more than a little afraid of what he'd do with the tool box!

House rules are posted on poster board in the kitchen. Consequences are spelled out too. Simple things like no hitting, speaking kindly, etc. Consequences can be no tv time, no nintendo DS, earlier bedtime, etc.
Rewards in our home are (aside from pokemon cards) easy things. A story from mom or dad. A trip to the gas station for a frozen yogurt, snuggletime, "sleepovers" in my bedroom, choosing dinner, helping make cookies or helping feed the baby animals.
You just have to find what works and be consistent. It's taken ME a lot of work to be able to be consistent. I'm a very fly by the seat of my pants person. I hate schedules and routine. I happen to have kids who thrive on it so I've had to adapt.


> I have one who I think thrives on schedules and routine - ds2. (I'm not sure of that, because he fights them tooth and nail, but he does seem to do okay with them. DS1, dd1 and I are all the exact opposite. Schedules and routines make dd1 crazy. I've never figured out how to impose schedules and routines on one child, and not the other. .


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maeby*
> 
> I know how it feels to think you aren't the right parent for your kid. But that's depression talking. I think maybe he just needs a different kind of parenting then you hoped to do. For example I wanted to homeschool my son but have realize that we are just not the right combo of personality types for it. He does much better learning from someone that not me an I do better parenting Him when I gets break on a daily basis. Is it an option to send your DS to school this fall?


It's not depression talking, actually. Sometimes, parents and kids are just a really bad match. I've seen it before. It doesn't mean it can't work out, but it's real. I'm not the right parent for ds2. He needs somebody with a lot more energy than me, for one thing. He also needs someone with the ability to get things done in the system. That's not me.

I've been thinking about sending ds2 to school. He doesn't want to go, but I think he might do better there. It's hard to say. My nephew (Aspergers) has very similar behavioural issues, and school isn't helping him at all. My sister's been considering pulling him out to homeschool! I have to really think about the logistics. DD1 thrives on homeschooling, so I'm not putting her in school. Trying to balance our activities and outings with the school schedule sounds incredibly stressful. I also don't think ds2 would enjoy hearing about dd1's wonderful day at the Museum of Biodiversity or the science museum, when he'd been in class all day. He's also above grade level i reading and math, even though we almost never work on either of those things - I suspect he'd be bored out of his mind. I also have major concerns about the social environment. DS2 has more issues with other kids than with anything else.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Another thought - does your school district offer evaluations at all? I know during the summer they might be closed, but if you could get something lined up for when school is back in session, that might take a mental load off. It would probably be through special education professionals, so not medical.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Purple*Lotus*
> 
> I think stik and dfb have good advice. You have to protect your kids. You are not even considering any of their suggestions. If you can not arrange to be awake before your son, then you need to ask your DH to help you. Someone has to make sure that your other children are not in danger. I hope you can figure something out.


DH does help me! DH does more than I do. I already mentioned that upthread. He's burning out, too.

What suggestions? Get up and do stuff when I can't?? "Don't let exhaustion beat you"?

Okay - HOW? How do you not "let" exhaustion beat you? How do you keep up with a child when you physically CAN'T? Don't tell me "you just do". Don't tell me "you have to". Tell me HOW.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> It's not depression talking, actually. Sometimes, parents and kids are just a really bad match. I've seen it before. It doesn't mean it can't work out, but it's real. I'm not the right parent for ds2. He needs somebody with a lot more energy than me, for one thing. He also needs someone with the ability to get things done in the system. That's not me.
> 
> I've been thinking about sending ds2 to school. He doesn't want to go, but I think he might do better there. It's hard to say. My nephew (Aspergers) has very similar behavioural issues, and school isn't helping him at all. My sister's been considering pulling him out to homeschool! I have to really think about the logistics. DD1 thrives on homeschooling, so I'm not putting her in school. Trying to balance our activities and outings with the school schedule sounds incredibly stressful. I also don't think ds2 would enjoy hearing about dd1's wonderful day at the Museum of Biodiversity or the science museum, when he'd been in class all day. He's also above grade level i reading and math, even though we almost never work on either of those things - I suspect he'd be bored out of his mind. I also have major concerns about the social environment. DS2 has more issues with other kids than with anything else.


I think school might help. I know that Canada is different, but there are still regulations, and schools must provide services to kids with differences. Again, though, it comes down to standing up for your kid and dealing with professionals.

I just saw your post on another thread, and was worried, so i looked through your previous posts. Not stalking honest, but someone who has kids with aspergers that sound SOOO much like your son. My son was above other kids in academics, and we told him that right now, his job was to learn how to play with other kids, not focus on academics. That stuff came later. KWIM?


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> DH does help me! DH does more than I do. I already mentioned that upthread. He's burning out, too.
> 
> ...


By getting up and doing it! I have severe fibromyalgia, and multiple other health issues. I have a severe sleep disorder. A sleep study noted that out of the 5 hours I managed to sleep I was in deep sleep for 11 minutes. 11 minutes! I am the poster child for exhaustion. You just do it. Cry the whole time if you have to, but do it. And why do you insist on homeschooling? Why? If you are that exhausted that is not a good situation for anyone. Put the kids in school, sleep while they are gone, be a good mom when they are home. If you are LITERALLY that exhausted that you cannot physically care for your children then you need to find alternate care for them (nanny, school, camp, etc) because how can you possibly consider that a safe situation for your children?


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 

Oh, Lisa. I wish you wouldn't feel depressed about this. He sounds like an intense kid - similar to one of my 3 boys, or my DD at times, fwiw. I can't tell you if he needs more structure or guidance or therapy or meds - b/c, I don't know him and am not a know-it-all-expert. But I know that parenting certain growning boys is rough, to put it mildly. You are the best mom he has. Remember that. I know. It just makes me feel bad that he's stuck with me.

All I know is with my kids, they need a whole lot of separation from each other in order to not kill one another. They are all in summer camp due to necessity, b/c I recently got a full-time job. 2 boys, and 1 girl, are in one camp; the youngest is in a summer daycare camp on his own. They manage to keep the older boys engaged enough to a point where there isn't any blood.
Anyhow, I know summer is halfway over, and I'm not ppreally suggesting camp/daycare as an ends to a means, but I know it has saved my ass as my boys have gotten older and wilder this year. If you have one that could possibly benefit from outside help, believe you me, I realize how hard it can be to have all the kids home together for extended periods of time.
He's got one small camp (three half days) coming up. There's nothing else that interests him, and I find having him home all the time is much less stressful than running around, trying to be places at a certain time. The one thing I am loving about the summer is the break from that!

It's rough, but if you can find a way to send him to individual activities or some sort of school away from home in the fall, I think you'll see a lessoning of those horrifying behaviors while he's under your watch. It's rough to be with the same small group of kids (such as siblings) for long amounts of time. Especiallyfkr a kid who reacts violently or who had any kind of overtly sensorial reactions.
It's just too much. For them and for you as a parent.
You know...I tried that, when dd1 was doing her second year of homeschool (we officially homeschooled kindy, so this was grade one). DS2 was so disruptive that I put him in preschool, three half days a week, so that I could focus on dd1. That part worked. He had a great time. He apparently behaved really well at school. He was hell on wheels, out of control, crazy-making when he came home - some of the worst behaviour I've ever had to deal with, from any of my kids. I dreaded picking him up. It was hell. The only reason I didn't pull him out was because he'd made one really good friend there, and really didn't want to lose the contact. It's one of the things that worries me about the idea of sending him to school.

There are days when I think, WTF? I shouldn't be these kids' parents, or a parent at all, for that matter. But it's just b/c I feel like things are out of control or not within my control (sorry, but anyone who thinks they can manage or punish certain kids into an expected behavior all the time, certainly haven't dealt with specific intense older children). And that's may when outside help in some form is needed. But please don't feel alone or defeated or unworthy as a parent. This shit sucks sometimes. For real. You need support and guidance. That's all.


> Thanks.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> By getting up and doing it! I have severe fibromyalgia, and multiple other health issues. I have a severe sleep disorder. A sleep study noted that out of the 5 hours I managed to sleep I was in deep sleep for 11 minutes. 11 minutes! I am the poster child for exhaustion. You just do it. Cry the whole time if you have to, but do it. And why do you insist on homeschooling? Why? If you are that exhausted that is not a good situation for anyone. Put the kids in school, sleep while they are gone, be a good mom when they are home. If you are LITERALLY that exhausted that you cannot physically care for your children then you need to find alternate care for them (nanny, school, camp, etc) because how can you possibly consider that a safe situation for your children?


What makes you think there will be anything less exhausting about putting my kids in school? My oldest graduated last year. I know the school drill. It wears me out. I hate it. I'm not going to be sleeping while they're gone, in any case - my youngest is only three. In any case, I don't recall asking for your opinion of my schooling choices. Homeschooling is one of the few things that's actually working out reasonably well around here. I don't consider the school system to be a safe situation for my children. I may eventually have to go that route, and I find it hilarious that people would probably pat me on the back for deliberately making a choice that I do not consider to be in the best interests of my children.

It's not about being too exhausted to physically care for my children. I feed them. I bathe them (well, sometimes - they like baths from dh better). I do their laundry and work on their homework. I'm too exhausted to keep up with ds2, and provide the constant direct supervision several people recommended upthread (he's up and down the stairs a few dozen times a day - my knees, back and energy level simply can't do it). I've never done that with any of my kids, even when I had more energy. I don't actually understand how that even works - how do people fix meals, throw in a load of laundry, gather up the dishes, etc.?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Multimomma*
> 
> I think school might help. I know that Canada is different, but there are still regulations, and schools must provide services to kids with differences. Again, though, it comes down to standing up for your kid and dealing with professionals.
> 
> ...


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no idea why people keep asking me where dh is. DH is at work, Monday-Friday. He gets up with the kids and fixes their breakfast before he leaves for work. Sometimes (there have been weeks when it's every night), he cooks dinner when he gets home. He gives most of the baths. He sometimes takes the kids out for a few hours on the weekend so I can have downtime. He pretty much always gets up on the weekend, and lets me sleep in a bit. He picks up the house. I just took the laundry back from him a few weeks ago, because he was doing all of it. If one parent is dealing with it all, it's dh, not me. I do all the f driving around (classes, shopping, homelearning meetup - my lifeline, playdates, etc. etc.), but dh does the lion's share of almost everything else.

In fact, he's about to take all three younger ones out, so that I can bake dd2's birthday cake in peace.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> I'm sorry you are dealing with this.
> 
> ...


We do some dietary stuff - fish oil, minimized additives, etc. (he gets a few on special occasions). I haven't managed to get organized enough to do full on Feingold or GAPS. (I have major, serious brain fog - it's one of the aspects of the exhaustion that drives me crazy. I sat down at the computer to look for a cake recipe, and this thread came up, and I forgot, until just now, why I was sitting here!) We should focus more on that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> I dealt with a similar situation when my son was that age. I don't mean to be harsh but you have to deal with it and making excuses about every single thing is not getting you anywhere. I have lived it, I know that it is completely, completely overwhelming. But when your 7 year old (mine) is attacking you with a hockey stick and your little girls are having to lock themselves in their room for safety something has to give. It is hard to get help and it is hard to keep everyone safe. And exhaustion? Hah! I know exhaustion. At the time I was dealing with this my youngest didn't sleep AT ALL. Plus I have multiple chronic health problems. But I am the mother. That is my job. I made sure I was awake and around every single second he was. I never left the kids unsupervised. If I went to the bathroom he had to sit outside the door and sing the whole time I was in there. It was that bad. If I wanted a shower I waited until my DH was home.
> 
> ...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

He also needs someone with the ability to get things done in the system. That's not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I have no idea how moms do this part - a lot of my son's future depends on a profession that I distrust and dislike intensely. It scares the crap out of me.

I think then, that *this* is probably the biggest priority that needs processing. I've read past posts about the horrible things you've endured - and I can't even imagine. But if you can't do this, or figure out a way to work through it all, your husband will have to be the one to do it. Just like if there was a physical problem that required one of your children to need frequent doctor visits, hospitalizations, etc., you'd somehow figure out a way to manage it. Your son needs you to do this for him. Thus far we're managing our daughter's issues well enough with just dietary changes, without medication, but my husband is on medication. The difference in him off medication but trying to "handle" things with other coping skills we've read about together, versus on medication...well, I'll just say that medication saved our marriage. We're poised to do the same for our daughter if it gets to that point, too.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I have spine issues, arthritis, my asthma is horrid. A few months ago my back went to hell in a handbasket. I could barely manage to do basic things - like wiping after I went to the bathroom. I went to my dr and she put me on a steroid pack. She got me a tens unit and a backbrace. The tens unit? I want to marry it and have it's babies! It is that awesome!

My back is doing better now but my lungs are a mess from all the fires. I have bone spurs
in my heels. I have plantar faciatis. Walking is agony. So I make sure I wear well padded shoes, soak my feet and muddle through.

I take medication for my depression, progesterone and DHEA for my hormone issues. I take vitamins and calcium to help with energy levels and to postpone further bone loss.

As for how you do it? You baby step it. You set your alarm and get up in the morning. Even if it's just ten minutes before the kids get up. After you adjust to that set it for 15 minutes.

Your older kids are old enough to start working on sleep issues. Have dinner, bathe the kids, read a story and put them to bed. If they get up, put them back in bed. Lather rinse repeat. Try melatonin to help them settle down and fall asleep. My DS takes 2.5 mg a night. It has helped so much! Bedtime here is 8:00. They can read till 8:30 and then it's lights out. You stay consistent, follow through. Don't argue, stay calm. Don't engage in the drama or whining. Empathize if needed but restate what you want and be firm.

When my grandbaby came back to us, she had ZERO sleep skills. She had ZERO self soothing skills. It took a few months but she now goes to bed at 8:30 and sleeps for 11-12 hours. She almost always sleeps through the night. It was hard getting there, but we did it.

My kids all have chores. Even the bb. (she will be 2 next month). Bb gets a wet rag and she "washes" walls, cupboards etc. We make a game of it. The twins are 8.5. They both have jobs. They clean their rooms- not my clean, but they do pretty good. DS loves to vacuum so that's his job. He loves to mop. I bought a spray mop, like a swiffer, but no batteries and the pad can go in the washer.

We have sock folding parties. I pop a movie in and we fold socks together. I bought colored milk crates. I fold their laundry and it goes in their crates. Their dresses have post it's taped on the drawers with a picture I drew of what goes in each drawer. They put their clothes away.

They help with dinner. They help unload the dishwasher. DS feeds the dog. They help collect eggs.

The toolbox? It's small- I got it at walmart for maybe 10$. It has a combo lock. I keep it on top of the fridge. You can easily store one there or on a shelf in the kitchen if you pick one the right size.

Screen time tends to cause issues. Overstimulation and all that so it's very limited. I set the timer and give countdowns the last 15 minutes. Then I shut it off.

There's so many ways to get kids to help. Have races. Give them a job and give yourself one. Make it a race to see who can get done first. Whoever wins gets a reward. They can pick dinner, pick the story, have extra screen time, painted nails, whatever floats your boat.

We are a family. In order for a family to function well we all have to do our part. We work together, we play together. It's what families do.

Also, I break chores down. If I say clean your room, they get overwhelmed. So I break it down. Pick up the legos. Yay! Now bring your dirty clothes basket in to the laundry room and empty it, put the basket back. Yay! Pick up the XYZ. Yay! Break it down.

Declutter. Pick one room at a time, work on it for 30-60 minutes a day. Get it done and move on to the next room.

I make a list each night of what I want to get done the next day. I put it on the fridge and check stuff off as I get it done. It helps.

Have a family meeting. Set down the house rules and put them on poster board. Let the whole family have input. Ask them how they'd like the family to work together to be functional.

If you want ideas on how to get kids motivated, let me know. I have some great things that really help us.

You can do this!


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi Storm Bride, I have only skimmed the thread but it's obvious you're completely overwhelmed. My advice is to hire someone to clean your house and give you a break from the kids, even if it's just a partial break. I understand how hard it is to find someone reliable who clicks with your family, but you can look on sittercity.com, Craigslist, ask everyone you know and just keep calling people. There are lots of sweet teenage girls out there who make great mothers helpers. Check with homeschooling families who have teenagers. If money is an issue (as it is for us) I think getting some help, even if it's only now and then, is worth budgeting for.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I have no idea why people keep asking me where dh is. DH is at work, Monday-Friday. He gets up with the kids and fixes their breakfast before he leaves for work. Sometimes (there have been weeks when it's every night), he cooks dinner when he gets home. He gives most of the baths. He sometimes takes the kids out for a few hours on the weekend so I can have downtime. He pretty much always gets up on the weekend, and lets me sleep in a bit. He picks up the house. I just took the laundry back from him a few weeks ago, because he was doing all of it. *If one parent is dealing with it all, it's dh, not me*. I do all the f driving around (classes, shopping, homelearning meetup - my lifeline, playdates, etc. etc.), but dh does the lion's share of almost everything else.
> 
> In fact, he's about to take all three younger ones out, so that I can bake dd2's birthday cake in peace.


OK, so then it seems to me that you need to focus on getting well. I grew up with a mother who was severely depressed. She was coming out of it by the time I rolled around, but my sisters lived through hell. My older sisters had to take on a whole lot of responsibility when they were 7, 8 and 9, kind of like your daughter. And guess what? Every single one of her children has had mental health issues. Gee, I wonder why? I don't blame my mom. This was back in the 60s when there was no treatment for depression. She's lived through hell, medically and emotionally. FIVE members of her family died in the space of 4 years -- 4 of them in a horrific car crash. She did the best she could.

You need to get your mental health in order. You can't just wish yourself well. If you could, you'd be well. I suffer from debilitating anxiety. When I'm in the depths, I can't do anything. But I have learned to call my doctor. Is it easy? No. Does it work. Yes. I'm hoping to break the cycle with my kids by getting help. Even if my kids end up with mental health issues (both have a tendency to anxiety), they'll know there's no shame in getting help and I'll be able to describe what worked for me.

You refuse to have anything to do with a doctor or a counselor. Fine. You could see a social worker. But I don't think you understand how the process works. The first several visits are diagnosis and exploring. Yes, they're going to say some pretty obvious things. That's to make sure that you're on the same page. Furthermore, they're not going to tell you how to get well. They're going to listen, suggest a few things and try to help you see how you can change. They're also going to say some things you don't want to hear. They may even tell other people if they think you're a danger. They can't wave a magic wand. You're resistant to doctors and yet you seem to be expect them to be omniscient and treat things right away. Mental health issues, which you've got in spades and have had since you were a teenager, are not a quick fix. It takes a lot of work.

I don't know where you get your information on ADHD, but your son has classic symptoms. The sensory issues often go hand-in-hand with ADHD. It's also possible to have more than one diagnosis. This is why I suggested your husband take your children to the doctor. They need treatment and you are not in a position where you can get them that until you address your own mental health issues. Treatment for ADHD involves medication, diet modification and parenting/family counseling. Parenting a child with ADHD means figuring out what works with your kid, and it's not easy. A friend of mine has a son with ADHD and it's taken 2 years of hard work to help him be successful in school and not destroying the house. What works for typical kids simply doesn't work with him.

Frankly, I'd also put your kids in school. Both of them. Why is it "off the table"? What are you afraid of? It might also get your kids some help. Not all systems are out to get you.

Really, what I read from your posts is: You are severely depressed. So severely depressed that you cannot function. So severely depressed that any practical suggestion someone makes is immediately met with "here's why I can't do that". If you weren't depressed, you could think about it at least. You're so depressed that a trip to the swimming pool, which is tiring for most of us, is completely exhausting for you. What can you do to help your mental health?


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree with everything Lynn said.

Parents have to take care of themselves in order to take care of their kids. Why do flight attendants tell parents to put on their own oxygen masks first? Because an unconscious parent cannot help their child. In the same way, a parent with severe depression cannot effectively help their child. You do come across as suffering from severe depression. You don't have to live with it, you deserve to be happy. Once you have started to get well, then caring for your son will not be so completely overwhelming. Please take care of yourself. There are trustworthy counselors and social workers out there. Your health and well being will benefit from getting help. Your kids will benefit from your getting help. And it's okay to need help. Lots of moms need help, and are still good, loving moms.

Lots of moms here, myself included, have lots of experience parenting difficult kids while suffering from depression or other mental and physical health issues themselves. They are trying very hard to help you. Please listen to their very wise advice.

I also do agree that if you cannot face doctors or counselors on behalf of your son, your dh needs to do it. Your son needs someone to act on his behalf and access the services he needs. If that's too hard for you right now, your son needs another adult to do it.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Great post Magella. I'm just going to say I agree.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magella*
> 
> I agree with everything Lynn said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
> 
> I think then, that *this* is probably the biggest priority that needs processing. I've read past posts about the horrible things you've endured - and I can't even imagine. But if you can't do this, or figure out a way to work through it all, your husband will have to be the one to do it. Just like if there was a physical problem that required one of your children to need frequent doctor visits, hospitalizations, etc., you'd somehow figure out a way to manage it. Your son needs you to do this for him. Thus far we're managing our daughter's issues well enough with just dietary changes, without medication, but my husband is on medication. The difference in him off medication but trying to "handle" things with other coping skills we've read about together, versus on medication...well, I'll just say that medication saved our marriage. We're poised to do the same for our daughter if it gets to that point, too.


I'll be doing it. DH would do it, if I insisted. But, he basically thinks that ds2 is just "all boy", wlil be alright, and maybe just needs a few good spankings. While he'd be somewhat more emotionally able to talk to a doctor, he doesn't really think it's necessary. (Heck - part of the problem here is that ds2 has spells where he's doing more-or-less okay, and I convince myself that he really doesn't have any issues, and I'm off my rocker.)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> I have spine issues, arthritis, my asthma is horrid. A few months ago my back went to hell in a handbasket. I could barely manage to do basic things - like wiping after I went to the bathroom. I went to my dr and she put me on a steroid pack. She got me a tens unit and a backbrace. The tens unit? I want to marry it and have it's babies! It is that awesome!
> My back is doing better now but my lungs are a mess from all the fires. I have bone spurs
> ...


Have the kids help more? I thought I was supposed to get a break?

DD1 and ds2 do go to bed, and more-or-less stay in bed (dd1 has started having issues at bedtime in the last few months - serious whininess, arguing, etc. - but she was fine for years before that). It's dd2 who has minimal sleep requirements. She doesn't sleep 11-12 hours in a 24 hours period, including naps. I don't think she ever has, even as a new baby

I've been breaking down the chores forever. I don't even tell them to do chores, unless I'm right there (or dh is) to supervise. Telling ds2 to pick up all the Legos isn't "yay". It's war.

Sure. I can buy a small tool box. I can empty a cupboard, or get rid of the stuff on top of the fridge (which would then need to replaced), but where do I put that stuff? Every shelf, cupboard, closet, etc. in this house is packed. I'm not actually too stupid to realze that a toolbox can go in a cupboard or on top of a fridge. Those places are already full of other things.

DS2 doesn't love to do any household chores - not any of them. DD1 loves to organize (sort out all the shoes, and line them up - clear up dressers, etc.) and sometimes wiping things - washing walls, etc. DS2 doesn't like any of them. He doesn't like to build with Legos (except an occasional robot or something with a sibling). He doesn't like to draw. He doesn't like to read. We're upping the chores he has to do, but five minutes of work from ds2 takes a minimum of an hour of my time or dh's. If I tell him to take his clean clothes up to his room, you'd think I asked him to hike Everest. *sigh*

ETA: Walking isn't a viable option right now, because I don't have shoes. I'll get a new pair, as soon as I can find them. I've found one kind that fit me, and they don't make them anymore. I've tried four stores, and found nothing. The pair I currently wear are about five years old, and have been worn everyday - they're wrecking my feet. I do an occasional very short walk barefoot, but it's been too rainy for that until the last day or two.


----------



## maeby (Nov 4, 2007)

Could you just throw that stuff away? Donate it to the goodwill or whatever Canadian equivalent?


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't really have any advice. It does sound like your ds wants help, and has a sweet side, despite the "trouble" behavior.

I just wanted to say that I understand the feeling of just wishing you didn't have to deal with it, and wanting to "ignore" stuff (not saying your ignoring his behavior, just the wish that it could all just stop). I'm not judging at all. I was there. Fortunately for me, the "problem" in my life that caused me to feel so overwhelmed was temporary. But still, I get it.

I really do think this is more than a discipline issue, which you already know. The faster you can get help, the better. Good luck in working through the system. {{{hugs}}}


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> OK, so then it seems to me that you need to focus on getting well. I grew up with a mother who was severely depressed. She was coming out of it by the time I rolled around, but my sisters lived through hell. My older sisters had to take on a whole lot of responsibility when they were 7, 8 and 9, *kind of like your daughter*. And guess what? Every single one of her children has had mental health issues. Gee, I wonder why? I don't blame my mom. This was back in the 60s when there was no treatment for depression. She's lived through hell, medically and emotionally. FIVE members of her family died in the space of 4 years -- 4 of them in a horrific car crash. She did the best she could.
> 
> ...


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maeby*
> 
> Could you just throw that stuff away? Donate it to the goodwill or whatever Canadian equivalent?


Throw what stuff away? Our dishes? Our clothes? Our camping gear? The kids art supplies? I said the house is packed. I didn't say it was junk. We've decluttered a lot in the last year, and there is more to go...but most of what's here is our stuff - it's not junk.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magella*
> 
> I agree with everything Lynn said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay. I'm done. I don't know why I compulsively engage with people, but it's really counter productive.

I'll call the freaking doctor on Monday, and start the process.

I'm not putting him in school, and I didn't ask for anyone's opinion on that.

Seeing a doctor is the worst thing I could do for myself. I have never seen a doctor (with the sole exception of my first visit to the OB when I was pregnant with dd2), and not come out feeling worse than when I went in - not once. I've heard from enough people who have children with special needs that I'm willing to make a massive leap of faith that the medical system might not f**k him up. Taking him to a doctor feels like amazingly irresponsible parenting, but it does seem to be necessary.

Thanks for your input. Some of it helped. Some of it didn't. C'est la vie.


----------



## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Doctors are not the enemy. Just like any profession, there are good ones and bad ones. I've had my share of both. I had a drunk OB show up for my second child's birth. Drunk. Everyone knew but nobody did anything. I didn't know what to do. It was a nightmare birth that left my dd with a seizure disorder and led me to homebirth.

I had a psych dr threaten us with cps when my late dd was self harming. Her therapist told us to take her to the hospital for an evaluation every time she self harmed. Jerk dr said we needed to learn how to parent her or he'd have her put into fostercare. She died six weeks later.

Oldest DS had eczema on his feet. Horrible eczema. Ped said to go to the er as it was the end of the day and he was going home. Er dr consulted with the oncall ped who had never seen my son and decided, after they sent us home to turn us in to cps saying his feet had been burned. That was a nightmare.

Our family dr, attended the funerals for both of my kids. He saw us through so much. He was amazing. He took us on after our previous dr fired us for having a homebirth. We stopped seeing him when we moved a year ago as 1.5 hours was too much of a drive. (one way)

We have a new family dr. I've been sick and on antibiotics. We ran into her at the firework show last week. She heard my cough, asked if I was better. Said no, told her what was up. She told me to call in the am and she'd get meds faxed to the pharmacy. And she did. No hassle at all. She even makes housecalls!

You keep throwing up excuses as to why nothing will work. How do you expect things to change without putting in the work to make it change? Not being bitchy, I'm serious. This is a serious question and one I've asked myself more than a few times. Change is scary. It's hard work. But if you really want it, you'll find a way. You've had many suggestions here but for whatever reason, none of them will work for you. Ask yourself why that is.

Sit down and make a list of things you want to change/fix. Then take each one and write out concrete ways you can make it happen. Look at the lists, ask for help and support where you need it. Don't say I can't. My gramma used to say "can't never could do anything". Start with the little changes and go from there.


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## 4princesses (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Okay. I'm done. I don't know why I compulsively engage with people, but it's really counter productive.


FFS, you know, I've never posted here before, but this thread is killing me. You've been given a lot of great advice. You may not like what they have to say, but that's neither here nor there. The people taking the time to respond don't have to say sh!t to you. They could just scroll on to the next topic. Yet they see a woman clearly in need of help and are taking the time to offer up suggestions and advice either because they feel for you or they've been there themselves. Maybe try being a little less dismissive. You catch more flies with honey...


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm glad you're calling a doctor! That is a great step to take and even though it feels difficult, you're doing it anyway. You should be proud of yourself for that. Good luck.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

Okay so basically your situation is going to continue exactly as normal, and if that is okay with you then go for it. I do not understand why people come here asking for advice only to dismiss every single good suggestion people have given you. It sounds like it is impossible for you to do anything to change this, so I vote for hiring a full time nanny. If anyone chased me around with a knife, it would scare the crap out of me. I am sorry for your other children.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> Doctors are not the enemy. Just like any profession, there are good ones and bad ones. I've had my share of both. I had a drunk OB show up for my second child's birth. Drunk. Everyone knew but nobody did anything. I didn't know what to do. It was a nightmare birth that left my dd with a seizure disorder and led me to homebirth.
> I had a psych dr threaten us with cps when my late dd was self harming. Her therapist told us to take her to the hospital for an evaluation every time she self harmed. Jerk dr said we needed to learn how to parent her or he'd have her put into fostercare. She died six weeks later.
> ...


Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad. I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it? None. None at all.

I get that being a mom means sucking it up. It doesn't mean liking it.

Quite frankly, if I make all the changes you all recommend, I'll end up in a situation where ds2 might thrive...and I'll feel as if I'm in prison. Maybe I have to do that, too - but if you expect me to respond to all this with, "yay - I get to wreck all the things I actually like about my life, without getting rid of the ones I don't - AWESOME", you're nuts. I may end up having to turn everything upside-down, throw away things we don't want to throw away, get even less sleep, trash what's left of my health, and lose all the flexibility that's the major advantage of the life we've chosen. I don't have to like it, either. And, I don't have to wrap my brain around ripping up my life in the course of 24 hours. The life you describe with your son sounds awful to me. I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad it works for your ds. It might work for my ds2. It sounds like a freaking nightmare. Throw in regular visits with more doctors (I so, so, so thought I was done with doctors after I had my last baby) and you're all basically telling me that the only way to help ds2 is to destroy everything I like about my life.


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## maeby (Nov 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad. I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it? None. None at all.
> 
> ...


Because things right now are so good? Your children (all of them) are suffering because of your inability to care for yourself and get help. They deserve better. Being a parent means doing crap we dont want to do. Life might even get crappy for a while but after some time and lots of effort it's likely to get better again, even better than you can possibly imagine right now from your dark depressed corner/world view.


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## maeby (Nov 4, 2007)

You probably don't remember and I've since changed usernames but years ago you haver the advice I needed to leave my ex. I didn't want to, it scared the sh*t out of me and life sucked for a good long while. But I did it and now three years later I can't tell you how much happier I am. I never envisioned this better of a life for myself and absolutely did not believe you when you said it would get better. But it did and I am so grateful for your tough love back then. I hope youll take this tough love from everyone and change things for yourself.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

My life sounds like hell? Bwahahahahaha! It's actually a wonderful life. My life was hell and so was the whole families when I was busy whining and doing nothing to fix it. That was hell.

After losing our daughter, we all spiraled out of control. It was seven years of hell. During those seven years we had suicide attempts, a child running away non-stop, a child that stole over 3k from us, physically assaulted me, poisoned me, a child being bullied at school and coming home bruised and battered.

It was enough. We made huge changes. We moved to a small farm in a small town. We got a cow, chickens and horses. Life was so much better once we started making our changes and then eventually the move.

We thought we were finally on track to a better life. Six weeks after the move my 15 yo son hung himself. I crumpled. I lost it. I sat in my bed for weeks. I barely did anything. My little DS got worse and worse.

So I did what I had to do. I pulled on my big girl panties and got busy. I dealt with all the issues. I made myself stick to my routine. I made myself get up each day. I made myself function.

You can sit there and say how hard life is or you can fix it. You have huge issues. Fix them. Your children need help. You need help.

You want to talk about hard life? I have survived more than you can imagine. I have not had an easy life. I've been the abused and neglected child. I've lived through the crazy mother. Been there done that have all the damn t-shirts. You name it, I've been through it.

The difference is? I deal with my shit so that my kids don't pay the price. I've outlived two children who had mental health issues. Ones that were being treated. You don't think I have abject terror dealing with doctors after all of that? You don't think I get it? Well I do. More than you know.

If it takes tearing your life down and building a new one for your kids to be healthy, happy and safe, you do it. You don't get to choose to make them suffer because of your trauma or phobias. They are children who deserve every chance to have a good life so they can be successful at life.

I'm so frustrated right now! You don't want to deal with your sons issues because getting him help infringes on you? Send him to me. Seriously. I'll put my phobias aside to get him the help he needs. I'll put my phobias aside to fight for him and advocate for him. If I, a total stranger am willing to do that for him, you as his mother sure as hell can!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad. *I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it?* None. None at all.
> 
> ...


He's SEVEN. You are a grown woman. Do you have a plan for him to spontaneously overcome his special needs so that you can live the life you want? You don't get to parent the kids you want. You get to parent the kids you have. Yes, you need to suck it up so he has a chance. He won't be in your house forever. But when you give birth, you make a commitment to do the best you can for your child, even if that means parenting differently than you'd like. And the thing is, if you get help, it won't always be a living hell for you. Once he's got something that works for him, you can figure out where you can loosen up.

Right now, your inability to act is causing harm to all of your children. ALL of them. Your son isn't learning the skills he needs. Your daughters are being terrorized by him. Your NINE YEAR OLD had to COWER in the bathroom calling you because he was out of control. She had to take her little sister in with her. Sure she gets to play. And then she gets to deal with things that she shouldn't have to deal with. Her play is punctuated by her brother destroying her things, peeing on her and chasing her around. She does not deserve this. Your son does not deserve this.

You are so far into your mental illness that I don't think you'll emerge without help. Your house is so cluttered you can't even find a safe spot to lock up dangerous things? Your son is out of control, your daughter is clearly distressed ,and your 3 year old is 3. You're so depressed you can't get out of bed, take care of the house or take care of the children. You're so paranoid about doctors/social workers/anyone who can help that you are digging yourself into a hole. If it were just you, I wouldn't get upset. But you're dragging your kids down with you.

You may not want to change your life. But you owe your kids a life too. They don't have one. And it's your mental illness, phobia of doctors and inability to trust that anyone can help that is stealing it from them.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. *If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad*. I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it? None. None at all.
> 
> ...


well, you've lost me there. i've been sympathetic for a couple of years to your situation... i've never dealt with depression on that scale, but i understand the sense of life being overwhelming, especially with the losses you've suffered.

but this? this is just straight up wrong. people have been handling you with kid gloves, despite knowing an awful lot about your history and your repeated lack of change, but now you just sound selfish and abusive.

it is WRONG, as a parent, to put your needs ahead of your kids needs. i don't mean putting your baby down in their crib for a few minutes so you can get a breather, i don't mean taking the space and time to recharge and refresh yourself either. this paragraph basically lays out how you're so wrapped up in your own life and problems that you don't even care what it's doing to your kids. you are saying you KNOW that things need to change for your children to thrive, but you basically just don't care enough about their health and wellbeing to sacrifice... what, i'm not even sure.


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

Whoa, I just read this whole thread, and I find myself feeling very very frustrated at you, Lisa.

I totally agree with what Lynn said just above me.

Just a few posts above that you said that doctors are your enemy. That really jumped out at me. That is not rational. And it is not fair to have a kid with issues and not deal with that phobia. I know you keep jumping up and down and screaming that you're going to call, so don't worry, you don't have to say it again. I know you are going to call on Monday. But, honestly, the way it sounds like is that if you make one phone call, that will be the most you are able.

If you listen to no other suggestions on this entire thread, please talk to your dh and have him take the burden on. If he is as awesome as you say he is, then he should be ready and willing to at least get the ball rolling on this for you, whether he thinks chasing siblings with knives is normal behavior or not. This is one concrete thing that you know needs to be done and you are really not able to do it. Just take it one step at a time. If he finds somebody for ds to see, that doesn't mean he has to do all the driving if that is impractical. But there are things he can do to help. And, if he honestly doesn't think there is a problem, then I think you need to have a longer discussion with him.

Things are not good in your household right now. You have laid that all out with many, many examples.

- your son chased your daughters with knives, until they hid in a bathroom

- you are too exhausted to be awake before them, even though this kind of thing goes on

- you have no control over when they go to bed

- you cannot take your children outside when it's hot

- your house is so full of stuff that you can't think of where you could put a tool box, but it is impossible to get rid of any of that stuff because you need it all

And, I think that's just the tip of the iceberg over there.

You came here, presumably, looking for help but then you mock and shoot down every last piece of advice offered to you.

All the people who've posted here, myself included, are posting because they want to help you. Things are not going to get better until you start makign some changes.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

As a parent, I've had to work very hard to be sure that my anxiety, past traumas and other issues don't interfere with my ability to meet my kids' needs. I've had to learn to do a lot of things I did not want to do at the time. Sometimes it's all overwhelming and I don't feel like I can do it another day. But I don't get to give up. My children depend on me utterly to access the healthcare they need, and to give them the supervision, guidance and safe environment that they need. I need to do these things even when I'm exhausted, in pain, anxious or depressed. Sometimes I need help, but I don't get to throw my hands up in the air and stop trying. It has to be done. Even when it's not easy.

Sometimes kids need things we don't want to have to deal with, or are afraid of. I was once scared to get my oldest the counseling she needed. I had a thousand reasons for being reluctant. But she needed it, so I did it. We made changes to our lives and parenting that I didn't want to make, but she needed it so we did it. My other kids needed me to make those changes for their physical and emotional safety. All of those changes that I didn't want to make at the time ultimately made our lives BETTER.

My youngest was recently diagnosed with juvenile arthritis. The whole thing sucks. I have phone and social anxiety, and I have to make frequent phone calls and I have to advocate for my daughter. I hate it. It's hard. At least once a month, a whole day is spent traveling to and from the doctor and sitting in the waiting room It's exhausting and disruptive the the whole family's routine. I have to give her meds that terrify me, because they're her best hope for getting well. I hate it. Our whole family had to change the way we eat because of her meds. Did we want to? No, but it keeps her safe so we did it. We can no longer do things we used to love to do as a family because of her constant pain. Sometimes life has other plans and you have to go with it, help your kids and make the best of it. Even when it completely sucks and feels like it's impossible to go on.

No one here is attacking you. No one is saying you have to like or enjoy anything. We all get how hard it is, how hellish it can be. We also know that sometimes, you have to get up and make changes anyway. You get the help you need. You get the help your kids need. You set up a safe environment. You do it because your kids are JUST KIDS, and they need their parent to do it. People are responding to you, honestly but with compassion and kindness, because they care.

I wish you and your kids well.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quite frankly, if I make all the changes you all recommend, I'll end up in a situation where ds2 might thrive


Why on earth would you not want your child to thrive? You chose to bring him into this world and you owe him the best parenting you can give him.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I am worried about you and your kids. What level of clutter is your house at that you don't have room for a box?

There are people who can help you! Please reach out in your community and get help.

What is difficult about having children in school? I only have limited experience (kindergarten) but it was a lot easier than having him home FT


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

If you PM me your home address and shoe size, I will send you some new shoes.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Storm Bride,

I can hear your pain and your fear coming through you posts, and my heart breaks for you. At the same time, though, you need to understand that children's safety comes first. Your babies were in a situation yesterday where someone could have killed them. They suffered the same trauma they would have suffered if that someone was an adult intruder. I understand how incredibly difficult seekign help is for you, but at the same time you have to understand that letting what's going on continue is absolutely no different from allowing your toddler to play in traffic because you're tired or ill and need to take a nap. You've got three children whose lives were in jeopardy today because of your son's risk taking, attention seeking behavior, and because of your own illness. Even though that illness is not your fault, the situation has to be fixed, and it has to be fixed today.

Here's a couple solutions I can think of. Yes they're extreme. Your situation is extreme.

1) Admit yourself to the hospital for the depression. Go to the ER and admit that you're a danger to your children. You say that walking into a therapist's office makes things worse, well you may need to ride that through in a safe setting. Have your DH take a leave of absence from work, or find a home daycare willing to take your kids, and go get better.

2) Admit your son to the hospital. I like this solution less well, to be honest, as I think that your family isn't going to heal until you heal, but consider it.

3) Call CPS on yourself. As a mandated reporter if I knew your name or other identifying information I'd call, because your girls were being abused today, and your son neglected. Where I live, if someone "self-refers" they'll come out, do an evaluation, offer solutions and supports.

4) Find the energy to take the appropriate steps to keep everyone safe at home. Get a door alarm for your son's room and have the girls sleep in your room. Or bring him in your room and put your bed across the door at night. Lock up the knives now. Not tomorrow when you get to the store to buy a lockbox. Now. Get up and go put them in the trunk of your car. Get some plastic ones and cook with them for now -- buy things that don't require sharp knives until things get better. Then make sure you aren't alone with your kids until things are in control. One adult needs to be in the room with your son at all times. Either have your DH take time off work (your child has a diagnosed illness, he should be eligible for FMLA), or hire a neighborhood teenager to be with you and them, or find a daycare or camp, or ship them off to Grandma's. When camp ends, either hire a nanny or send them to school. Meanwhile, get medical help for you kid. Go to the school tomorrow, and start the evaluation process there, and start it at the doctor's too. Imagine your child had cancer, and think about what you'd do to find the ability to help him, and then do that, because kids die from mental illness and impulsivity just like they die from cancer.

I'm sorry if my tone seems harsh, but your children could have died today. I know you're a wonderful person and a loving mother, but your children's safety needs to come first.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> well, you've lost me there. i've been sympathetic for a couple of years to your situation... i've never dealt with depression on that scale, but i understand the sense of life being overwhelming, especially with the losses you've suffered.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to say what I want to say, because I'd get banned.

*I'm going to call the damned doctor.* So, what's your problem? And, I don't know that I need to make such and such changes - people who have never even met my son are saying that I need to. And, spare me the "children". There are serious problems that exist with ds2. My other three are doing very, very well.

And, since you don't even know what I'm talking about ("but you basically just don't care enough about their health and wellbeing to sacrifice... what, *i'm not even sure*"), what are you going on about?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maeby*
> 
> Because things right now are so good? Your children (all of them) are suffering because of your inability to care for yourself and get help. They deserve better. Being a parent means doing crap we dont want to do. Life might even get crappy for a while but after some time and lots of effort it's likely to get better again, even better than you can possibly imagine right now from your dark depressed corner/world view.


Lots of things about our life are really, really good, yeah. You think my girls spend all their time cowering in bathrooms, and being run over by their brother? I'm not going to rehash all the things people have said, as this thread is getting really drawn out and ridiculous. There has, however, been a fair bit of advice in this thread that would trash most of the things that help dd1 thrive, and help me thrive...and that ds2 actually enjoys quite a lot.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> My life sounds like hell? Bwahahahahaha! It's actually a wonderful life. My life was hell and so was the whole families when I was busy whining and doing nothing to fix it. That was hell.
> After losing our daughter, we all spiraled out of control. It was seven years of hell. During those seven years we had suicide attempts, a child running away non-stop, a child that stole over 3k from us, physically assaulted me, poisoned me, a child being bullied at school and coming home bruised and battered.
> ...


No - I don't want to. But, I'm going to. It's not enough for any of you oh-so-compassionate people that I'll do it, even if I hate it, is it? I have to f**king like it, too. Well, I don't. Sue me.

And, yeah - your life sounds hellish to me. That doesn't mean it's hellish, in any objective sense.

Oddly enough, none of the people who actually know me or my son think he's living in some kind of hell. Nobody thinks my daughters are. The fact that I don't just jump on every suggestion people make and say, "yeah - I'll do that tonight" doesn't mean things are so bloody awful around here.

Every single child pays some price or other for their parent's issues, but my kids aren't paying anywhere near the price you all seem to think they are...and I push my comfort zone every freaking day, in a lot of ways, to get them what they need. I just don't post about everything that goes well in my life, because I really don't need to.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> He's SEVEN. You are a grown woman. Do you have a plan for him to spontaneously overcome his special needs so that you can live the life you want? You don't get to parent the kids you want. You get to parent the kids you have. Yes, you need to suck it up so he has a chance. He won't be in your house forever. But when you give birth, you make a commitment to do the best you can for your child, even if that means parenting differently than you'd like. And the thing is, if you get help, it won't always be a living hell for you. Once he's got something that works for him, you can figure out where you can loosen up.
> 
> ...


My kids don't have a life? Tell them that. I like hearing them laugh. Yes - we need to make changes for ds2, which we will make, when we can figure out what they are. The fact that I'm not doing everything people have recommended, or jumping for joy about it, doesn't mean I'm not doing anything.

The only things I have flat out said won't happen are seeking "help" for my depression, and putting the kids into school in September (and I have left the possibility of doing so with ds2 on the table). The rest is all up for consideration. Well, I'm not going to set my alarm for 6:00 am, either, but I don't actually think my children need to see me hospitalized, either. (No - I'm not kidding. The last time I was running even close to this tired, I was on the verge of complete collapse and hospitalization for almost a month. Since my kids don't get up at the same time every morning, setting an alarm to beat them out of bed just isn't going to work. I may ask ds2 to come in and wake me up when he gets up, though. He'd probably like that.)


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad. I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it? None. None at all. NOOOOOOOOOOO!! It freaking doesn't. You have a responsiblity to help your son, at the expense of your own personal comfort. Do you think every mom is all WHOOPADIE DOO all the time?
> 
> ...


Get yourself some help. Get your son some help so that he has the tools to survive and thrive in the world. And ffs, send your kids to school. You are harming them by keeping them at home and not doing anything to educate them. Also, they will receive services at school that they need. Please, if you do nothing else, do this. Give them half a chance. If you won't help yourself, please do something to help your kids.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Seriously is there anything left to be said? Enough is enough. When someone is down you don't keep stomping on them. It's Saturday she said she would call Monday.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrissy*
> 
> Whoa, I just read this whole thread, and I find myself feeling very very frustrated at you, Lisa.
> 
> ...


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> Seriously is there anything left to be said? Enough is enough. When someone is down you don't keep stomping on them. It's Saturday she said she would call Monday.


ITA.

Stormbride, having your ds wake you up when he gets up in the morning sounds like a nice solution. Honestly, I don't think the issue is the knives so much as the need for boundaries and guidance. If it turns out that the knives are a fixation, that might be a different story, but there's no reason to believe that of a kid whose only done that particular thing once. My kids sometimes like to tromp up and down stairs a lot too, but in the moments when they need a lot of supervision? If I can't go, they can't go. Direct supervision doesn't have to mean that you follow him everywhere. It can mean that he follows you. If you need a break, he can tromp up the stairs by himself while his sisters are someplace else. There are a lot of ways to preserve both safety and your knees, you just have to get creative.

What kind of shoes work for you? Would you be willing to outsource the shoe hunt? It's summer vacation here. I have time to run some online searches.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Doctors aren't your enemy. That's great. They are mine. I"ll call the damned doctor. If that's not good enough, that's too damned bad. I don't have to like the fact that my only option is one that is absolutely intolerable to me. I just have to do it. As long as I suck it up and get ds2 the help he needs, what f**king difference does it make to anybody if I hate every f**king second of it? None. None at all. NOOOOOOOOOOO!! It freaking doesn't. You have a responsiblity to help your son, at the expense of your own personal comfort. Do you think every mom is all WHOOPADIE DOO all the time?

So - what's the big f**king deal? I'm going to do it. I don't like it. So, who the f**k gives a shit how I feel about it? And, what does being "all WHOOPADIE DOO" have to do with anything?

In case any of the people who are dogpiling on this missed it:

*I'M CALLING THE DAMNED DOCTOR ON MONDAY!!!*

I get that being a mom means sucking it up. It doesn't mean liking it.

Quite frankly, if I make all the changes you all recommend, I'll end up in a situation where ds2 might thrive...and I'll feel as if I'm in prison. Maybe I have to do that, too - but if you expect me to respond to all this with, "yay - I get to wreck all the things I actually like about my life, without getting rid of the ones I don't - AWESOME", you're nuts.What exactly do you like so much about your life that its worth damaging your children? Laying around the house? Sleeping all day? Constantly living in your cocoon of fear?

Laying around the house? Sleeping all day? You say below that if you came across a case like mine, you'd report it, but you clearly have no idea what kind of case that is. I don't lay around the house. I spend more time online than I should, but take frequent breaks from that, to tend to the kids (and, until about three days ago, was still nursing dd2 here a fair bit of the time). I don't even come close to sleeping all day. I get up after my kids - and not by that much, unless dh stays for a while before he leaves for work. (On the weekends, I sometimes sleep in until about 10:00...nowhere near that late during the week.) Until summer break started, we (me and the three youngest) were out of the house every day, for one thing or another. We're still out some days, and I'm out pretty much every day, at least to pick something up at the store. I take my kids out for one-on-one dates (movies, drive-in diner, swimming - whatever). I've been pushing out of my "cocoon of fear", in various ways, for years (mostly for the benefit of my children, although one thing was totally for me). The fact that I don't do it fast enough for you, or in exactly the way you think I should, doesn't mean it's not happening.

I may end up having to turn everything upside-down, throw away things we don't want to throw away, get even less sleep, trash what's left of my health, and lose all the flexibility that's the major advantage of the life we've chosen. I don't have to like it, either. And, I don't have to wrap my brain around ripping up my life in the course of 24 hours. The life you describe with your son sounds awful to me. I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad it works for your ds. It might work for my ds2. It sounds like a freaking nightmare. Throw in regular visits with more doctors (I so, so, so thought I was done with doctors after I had my last baby) and you're all basically telling me that the only way to help ds2 is to destroy everything I like about my life. YOU desperately need mental health help for yourself, as well as for your son. I just don't understand your resistance to do anything to help your child just because it might make your life unpleasant. If you feel that strongly than you how the hell do you function day to day? I'm a mandated reporter. If I personally ran across a case like your's I'd call CPS in a hot second. I've done it before and I will probably have to do it again.

Because I'm having trouble with the concept of turning our lives upside-down and inside-out (to implement some of the changes recommended here), you wonder how I function every day? I function by...not turning my life upside-down and inside-out. If you'd report someone for not dancing through the tulips over a massive upheaval, you have issues. The kind of structure people are recommending for my ds2 is extremely difficult for me, and also extremely difficult for dd1. Recognizing that it's going to be hard for everyone isn't the same thing as refusing to do it.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly do you think CPS would do for me? I know people get a nice warm, fuzzy feeling out of calling CPS, but I've seen them create too much additional chaos in too many lives to get those fuzzies.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> ITA.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hey Mama!*
> 
> Get yourself some help. Get your son some help so that he has the tools to survive and thrive in the world. And ffs, send your kids to school. You are harming them by keeping them at home and not doing anything to educate them. Also, they will receive services at school that they need. Please, if you do nothing else, do this. Give them half a chance. If you won't help yourself, please do something to help your kids.


FFS. I missed this before. How am I not educating them? DS2 reads above grade level. He does math at or above grade level. DD1's science knowledge is about grade seven or eight, in most subjects. Her reading is at about grade level now (was way behind at the beginning of the year, but she's learned a lot). She's a bit behind in math, but made about three months progress in the last week (things have clicked, and she's interested now). They've done workshops in the sciences and the arts (music, printmaking, dance, drawing/painting) and in freaking gold panning this year. They've been on field trips to the science museum, the aquarium, the biodiversity museum, the Bug Zoo and honeybee centre, an old mine that's now a museum, the local farm, etc. They've taken classes in circus arts, Tae Kwon Do, ballet, piano, multimedia art, skating and swimming. One of the moms in our homelearning group is a teacher, and she feels that my kids are very well educated.

The services they can access at school are dependent on a diagnosis. I can access them through the group I'm signed up with for homeschooling.

You're making up a fantasy out of whole cloth, and it has nothing to do with our lives.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I think having your DS come wake you when he gets up sounds wonderful. Caleb does that sometimes and we lay in bed, snuggle, talk and play the belly button game. It's a great way to start the day!

I'm not saying you have to live your life by my rules. Honestly, I'm not. I'm just giving you ideas to bounce around and see if you like any of them. What works for person A doesn't always work for person B.

I have phone anxiety. I do not give good phone. What helps is writing out what I want to say and going off of that. Maybe that would help you?

Prior to getting DS help, he wasn't a nightmare everyday. He'd have good days and bad days. But it got to where the bad days were more frequent and the intensity of the bad days was ramping up. It was scary at times. I felt helpless to help him. I felt powerless to help him. I was terrified of letting another professional in when we'd already been failed lethally failed. It took some prep work and support to be able to make that first call. It took a lot more to get him in for the evaluation. I felt exposed and vulnerable. I was scared. I mean, come on! I've had two kids take their lives! What kind of a f***up parent has that happen? I was afraid of pointed fingers, accusations and negativity. I was met with amazing compassion, patience and understanding. The whole process has not only been invaluable for DS but also for dh and me.

I'm glad you are making the call. I know how hard this is for you. I know how scary this is and the feelings it brings up.

If you want my support, you have it. If you need a hand to hold, you have it. I'm not trying to bash you or be mean. I really do want to see you succeed at getting help for your little guy. He sounds wonderful! I mean that. He sounds smart, funny and likable. He sounds like a challenge too! Lol

You have support here. It may not feel like it, but you do. I'm a pm away if you need anything.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Lisa you have gotten a lot of great advice and it would be redundant to repeat any of it. If I were in your shoes I would step away and see if my husband could give me some serious down time to catch up on sleep, rest, and consider my options. You know your family best and in a thread this long there has to be a small bit of advice that can help you. You're the only person who can change your situation and you're clearly miserable. You deserve to be happy and your kids deserve a mom who isn't so stressed. Get away for a bit. Rest up. Clear your mind. Make a plan.

Fwiw we just started Feingold with my ds who is a lot like yours. I feel a lot like you do a lot of days too. It's *hard.*. If you want me to type up the Feingold info and pm you, I will. It's kind of expensive to buy but I'd happily provide you with the info if you're interested. I'm surprised how easy the program is.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 

I think having your DS come wake you when he gets up sounds wonderful. Caleb does that sometimes and we lay in bed, snuggle, talk and play the belly button game. It's a great way to start the day!

We used to do that. I'm not sure what happened, to tell the truth. I think dh may have decided to take them downstairs to let me sleep, without realizing the cuddle time was awesome! But, dd2 was still doing her marathon morning nursing session at that time, too. (She seems to have quit that - a short one this morning, but I think she's done the long ones. I'm kind of glad - quite ready for her to wean.)

I'm not saying you have to live your life by my rules. Honestly, I'm not. I'm just giving you ideas to bounce around and see if you like any of them. What works for person A doesn't always work for person B.
I have phone anxiety. I do not give good phone. What helps is writing out what I want to say and going off of that. Maybe that would help you?

Actually, that's probably a really good idea. In addition to fearing and distrusting doctors, I'm fairly seriously phone phobic - I don't even like caling the pizza place when we do that. A script might help.

Prior to getting DS help, he wasn't a nightmare everyday. He'd have good days and bad days. But it got to where the bad days were more frequent and the intensity of the bad days was ramping up. It was scary at times. I felt helpless to help him. I felt powerless to help him. I was terrified of letting another professional in when we'd already been failed lethally failed. It took some prep work and support to be able to make that first call. It took a lot more to get him in for the evaluation. I felt exposed and vulnerable. I was scared. I mean, come on! I've had two kids take their lives! What kind of a f***up parent has that happen? I was afraid of pointed fingers, accusations and negativity. I was met with amazing compassion, patience and understanding. The whole process has not only been invaluable for DS but also for dh and me.
I'm glad you are making the call. I know how hard this is for you. I know how scary this is and the feelings it brings up.
If you want my support, you have it. If you need a hand to hold, you have it. I'm not trying to bash you or be mean. I really do want to see you succeed at getting help for your little guy. He sounds wonderful! I mean that. He sounds smart, funny and likable. He sounds like a challenge too! Lol

He is wonderful! His top Tae Kwon Do teacher says he's one of his all-time favourite students, because he's so enthusiastic and cheerful (even if he doesn't listen well, and does all kinds of talking and such at inappropriate moments). He's full of energy. And, he's super-snuggly.
His cousins have just introduced him (at the birthday party) to one of those trading card games...Yu Gi Oh, I think. It looks as though I'm taking up a new hobby. I wonder if dd1 would like to play, too. I think those card games need at least three players.

You have support here. It may not feel like it, but you do. I'm a pm away if you need anything.


>


ETA: I just want to mention that the way the quote function on this board handles paragraph spacing is crap.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

This thread has been on my mind and I want to offer hugs to you (I can't find the icon). I found it hard to admit my dd needed outside help and her problem is just academic. I feel a lot of guilt and I want to cry or scream (usually both) after each time I talked to her teacher because she tried to see problems in all academic areas despite grades and test scores being fine. Our lives and my education was put on hold with intense interventions and pricey outside tutoring. I have an end in sight though and I really can barely imagine how hard it would be to have to admit your child might have a permanent and serious behavior problem that will require extreme changes for a large family that had been running mostly smoothly. I think it is good for you to admit your worries and not just jump in to getting a diagnosis. As a homeschooling mom you don't have to worry so much about the labeling that happens with a diagnosis, but from what I remember as a child doctors put intense pressure on patient and parent to comply and not question. I really think a child psychologist is a better place to start, they can't drug and may be able to help you with next steps if they truly are necessary.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

DS has huge energy levels. Huge! If I could harness his energy and convert it to power? We could run our house, barn and well off of it. :s

The yu gi oh cards are fun. DS has friends with them and has been asking for some. I owe him a pack of pokemon cards so maybe he'd like those instead. I promised him a pack if he learned to tie his shoes. I've been trying to get him to learn for years. We made a deal and he learned over the weekend! NEVER underestimate the power of bribery!

I never order pizza on the phone. I order it online. Yes, we are in the boonies but our small town has a dominoes and they deliver! Score!

Doctor fear is real. When we lost our daughter, she had been to therapy a few days prior. We had everything locked up. Scissors, medications, ropes, anything we thought could be used for self harm or suicide. At that last appointment, she was upset that we didn't trust her to be safe. She had been safe for months. No suicidal thoughts, no self harm.

Her therapist thought it would be a show of trust to unlock things.

Dh unlocked everything on a Friday while I was on bedrest following our IVF embryo transfer. Monday morning she was dead.

Like I have said, I get it.

It's not rational. Dd was determined. She would have found a way no matter what. But we trusted the judgment of her therapist. We lost her.

My back was really bad a few months ago. My dr sent me to a specialist. I spent more time waiting for him than I did for the visit. He said his spiel after looking at my numerous test results, stood up, shook my hand and started to leave. He seemed annoyed that I started asking questions. I told my dr that he sucked and she should refer to someone else. She agreed.

Blah blah blah. For someone posting from a phone I sure ramble a lot. Ha!

Oh- does your DS like dragons? If you have an iPhone, iPod or iPad I can tell you some fun games he might like. Those might work as motivators or rewards. There's a few games DS loves that your boy might.

If you want someone to look over your script for the call on Monday, you can pm it to me. I'd be happy to go over it and offer ideas or suggestions if you'd like.

I'm off to bed. Almost midnight and I'm worn out. It was my cows birthday today so we had a party for him. That with everything else we did today? I'm beat!


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## inkster (Jul 8, 2012)

Stormbride, keep in mind that everything you post here is public. I have a feeling that some here are trying to get more information to use against you in the guise of offering "support."


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Just checking in to see how you all are doing this morning.

I have to be honest here. All my talk about getting up with the alarm clock? Ummm. Well.... I didn't even hear it this morning. I didn't get up till 8:30! Omg! To some that doesn't seem bad but for me it is. My animals were pissed off this morning! Cows were bellowing loud enough to be heard in China, goats were whining, horses were stomping and making loud horse noises. Loretta's udder was so full it looked like it was going to explode. Oops!

Everyone was looking at me with a "WTF dude?" look on their faces.

I'm way behind schedule today. Thankfully there's nothing pressing to do today or I'd really be screwed. Lmao!

SB, can you share the things that are going well in your life? Maybe we can brainstorm on how to build on those things so that the bad things don't seem so overwhelming?

What are the things you want to change? We can figure out plans to help you implement those changes.

I know your anxiety about making the call tomorrow is probably ramping up. What can I do to help you work through it so that when you make the call you can make yourself be heard? If you want my cell number, I'll send it. I can cheerlead you tomorrow morning before you call and then be a support for after. Making this call is going to be hard, no doubt about it. I'm available to help in anyway you need.

I'm here for you. I do care. Not only about your DS, but about you too.


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## inkster (Jul 8, 2012)

DragonFlyBlue - you are part of the discussion on the 'trolls' mdc spinoff forum where Stormbrides personal pictures and information is being passed around, along with talk of calling social services on her, no?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Stormbride, I want to second the recommendation (from dragonflyblue, I think) to write a script for the phone calls you need to make. I have huge anxiety issue wrt the phone, particularly when it comes to making calls to make appointments and this really helps me. It seems ridiculous while I'm writing it down, but it really does help to have that paper in front of me that says, "Hi, my name is Jeri X. My son is a patient of Dr. Y and I'm calling to schedule an appointment for Z. We prefer mid-morning appointments and we can't make it on Fridays," or something like that. I also make sure I have the insurance information, social security numbers, anything they might ask for written on the page and clearly labelled. The phone calls never end up being as bad as my anxiety convinces me they'll be, either







.

I've been following this thread, but haven't posted because I didn't really know what to say. It sounds like your in a bad place mentally/emotionally right now. It also sounds like you have some health/pain issues going on, and that can make everything else seem exponentially worse. I remember how defeating it felt when my back was really messed up and I could barely walk to the bathroom for months, let alone chase my kids around. I'm concerned, though, that you might have physical/health issues that aren't being addressed due to your fear of doctors. Do you have ANY health care providers you trust, even a little? Family, friends, friends of friends? Someone who can make a recommendation for you. I know your phobia is severe, but I'd hate for you to miss out on treatment that could actually help for what sounds like chronic pain and exhaustion. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted anything you've posted here - it's hard to tell what's going on in someone's life from a few posts on the internet.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm a member there. I have been for years. Is there a thread there. Yes. If you are a member there and can read, you can see that I've said the same things there that I have said here. So have other posters on this thread.

I'm not seeking information to try and hurt SB. I'm trying to help. I've put very personal info of my own on this thread in my attempts to be a support. Do I get frustrated? Yup. I said that here as well.

I think your posts are more of an attempt to stir up a mess than to be supportive or helpful. What's your objective? Have YOU posted anything to this thread aside from your dire warnings? Have YOU stepped out of your comfort zone and laid bare your heart to help? I think not. I'm damn well sure I have.

SB needs support. I'm offering that. I'm talking to her about my own fears of medical professionals. I'm talking to her about my own challenges in parenting my kids with special needs. I've blown up once on this thread and then reposted when I was calmer and able to offer sincere help and support. I'm human. I get upset. My mouth (fingers) can spout off before my brain catches up.

I've not apologized for my earlier lapse in compassion and my harsh tone. I'm doing that now.

SB, I'm truly sorry I posted yesterday in a harsh, unsupportive way. It was wrong. I should have stepped away before I opened my mouth and said mean things.

I'm not sorry for trying to be a support person. I'm sorry that I didn't handle my words better yesterday when I posted I was frustrated and a bit angry.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> This thread has been on my mind and I want to offer hugs to you (I can't find the icon). I found it hard to admit my dd needed outside help and her problem is just academic. I feel a lot of guilt and I want to cry or scream (usually both) after each time I talked to her teacher because she tried to see problems in all academic areas despite grades and test scores being fine. Our lives and my education was put on hold with intense interventions and pricey outside tutoring. I have an end in sight though and I really can barely imagine how hard it would be to have to admit your child might have a permanent and serious behavior problem that will require extreme changes for a large family that had been running mostly smoothly. I think it is good for you to admit your worries and not just jump in to getting a diagnosis. As a homeschooling mom you don't have to worry so much about the labeling that happens with a diagnosis, but from what I remember as a child doctors put intense pressure on patient and parent to comply and not question. I really think a child psychologist is a better place to start, they can't drug and may be able to help you with next steps if they truly are necessary.


Actually, a local MDCer sent me a PM with some info on a multi-disciplinary assessment team. There was another one I was looking at, but it's priced at over $2K, and we simply can't come up with that right now. The one the MDC member sent me info on is paid for by provinicial medical. I still need a referral, and don't know if I can get my doctor to go that route or not, but I'm going to try for it. Whatever is going on with ds2, he's very high functioning, and his issues are subtle. I'd really like a thorough assessment from one of the clinics (I don't know if they're actually called clinics, but I don't know what else to call them). I have a friend who has a grown daughter with autism, and she was assessed at this same place. His younger child was misdiagnosed/assessed as also having autism, at another location. My friend didn't think they were right, and took his son back the same clinic I'm talking about (the one I want to take ds2 to, and which diagnosed his daughter), and they determined that his son isn't on the spectrum, and correctly identified his issues. (I'm going to assume it was correct, because when they started work with him based on the new diagnosis, the situation improved. It hadn't previously, with the autism diagnosis.)

I don't know if any of that made sense.`

I've been almost 100% sure that ds2 has something going on for a few years now. The problem is that he goes through reasonably long spells where his behaviour is close enough to "normal" to make me feel as if I'm over-reacting, and he's really okay. Then, something like the knives comes up, and it's like "oh, yeah - there really is something going on".


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

So glad someone pm'd you info you can really use. Have a great day Lisa.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 

DS has huge energy levels. Huge! If I could harness his energy and convert it to power? We could run our house, barn and well off of it. :s
I can relate - dd1 and ds2 are both like that. (Actually dd1 is even more high energy than ds2, when I stop to think about it - she's just more naturally gifted at finding non destructive ways to channel it.)

The yu gi oh cards are fun. DS has friends with them and has been asking for some. I owe him a pack of pokemon cards so maybe he'd like those instead. I promised him a pack if he learned to tie his shoes. I've been trying to get him to learn for years. We made a deal and he learned over the weekend! NEVER underestimate the power of bribery!
Yeah - ds2 and I played a few "one on one battles" last night. He really enjoyed it. But, most of the cards he was using were ones his cousin accidentally left at the party. I need to return those in the next day or two, which will leave ds2 with only one. He had a great time playing with his cousins, though...and then he got to teach me. He always likes being the one who knows stuff.

I never order pizza on the phone. I order it online. Yes, we are in the boonies but our small town has a dominoes and they deliver! Score!
I'd do that, except that we have a place across the street. We can walk over to pick it up and have our pizza on the table 15 minutes after we order. And, they dont' have online olrdering. The place that does is Pizza Hut. I really like Pizza Hut...but it's way more money, and much slower. Usually, if we're doing pizza, it's at leats partly because the day got away from us (happens when I'm at homelearning meetup longer than I expected, for instance), and it's getting late.

Doctor fear is real. When we lost our daughter, she had been to therapy a few days prior. We had everything locked up. Scissors, medications, ropes, anything we thought could be used for self harm or suicide. At that last appointment, she was upset that we didn't trust her to be safe. She had been safe for months. No suicidal thoughts, no self harm.
Her therapist thought it would be a show of trust to unlock things.
Dh unlocked everything on a Friday while I was on bedrest following our IVF embryo transfer. Monday morning she was dead.
Like I have said, I get it.
It's not rational. Dd was determined. She would have found a way no matter what. But we trusted the judgment of her therapist. We lost her.








I can't even begin to imagine going through that.

My back was really bad a few months ago. My dr sent me to a specialist. I spent more time waiting for him than I did for the visit. He said his spiel after looking at my numerous test results, stood up, shook my hand and started to leave. He seemed annoyed that I started asking questions. I told my dr that he sucked and she should refer to someone else. She agreed.
Blah blah blah. For someone posting from a phone I sure ramble a lot. Ha!
Oh- does your DS like dragons? If you have an iPhone, iPod or iPad I can tell you some fun games he might like. Those might work as motivators or rewards. There's a few games DS loves that your boy might.
hmm...ds2 does like dragons, but maybe I should just resort to more bribery. It's never been an approach I used very much, but it might work well with him. "Do X, you can play Jumpstart" kind of thing. (I was going to say I have no "i" electronics, but I forgot about my iPod - I haven't used it much lately>)


> If you want someone to look over your script for the call on Monday, you can pm it to me. I'd be happy to go over it and offer ideas or suggestions if you'd like.
> I'm off to bed. Almost midnight and I'm worn out. It was my cows birthday today so we had a party for him. That with everything else we did today? I'm beat!


There's something about having a birthday party for a cow that kind of rocks my world. I'm not kidding. That's awesome! DD1 would be all over it. (When we released butterflies last week, she insisted on a funeral for the chrysalis of the one butterfly that never emerged. She's very ceremonial about her dealings with animals...even little, little ones.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> I'm a member there. I have been for years. Is there a thread there. Yes. If you are a member there and can read, you can see that I've said the same things there that I have said here. So have other posters on this thread.
> I'm not seeking information to try and hurt SB. I'm trying to help. I've put very personal info of my own on this thread in my attempts to be a support. Do I get frustrated? Yup. I said that here as well.
> ...


I remember you from a few years ago very well. Even though I lost my cool, I appreciate your posts. You've always been one of my favourite people here, and I was sorry when you (mostly) left. It's cool - really.

I had a bad head cold and headache on Thursday. It was one of those days when I just wanted to stay in bed (and please note that I've never just stayed in bed - on the one occasion when I was genuinely too sick to actively parent dd1 and ds2, I was on the couch, and still managed things like diaper changes, basic food, etc. - I just let the dumping whole boxes of cereal go - and that was...six years ago, maybe?). It was the day I posted this thread. It was the day dd2 knocked over our floor lamp and smashed the glass shade. It was just an all around crappy day. I posted here, looking for some way to deal with ds2 beyond "give me those or I'll paddle your butt" and I wasn't expecting the dogpile, and I didn't cope with it very well.

I'm still a little pissed at the people on this thread who seem to be making up my life out of whole cloth (staying in bed, laying around all day, not educating my kids, etc. etc.). I'm not so bent about the advice, even the stuff that won't work for me, or was phrased really obnoxiously. I know I have a tendency to put things in a very emphatic way, and it doesn't always come across quite the way I mean it.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I'm sorry that I over reacted to your thread. I admit that I painted a picture in my head based on the info you have shared over the years here. You aren't a terrible person, and neither am I. I understand that you can't clarify everything about your life to strangers over the internet. My post came out of a sense of urgency that you and your kids needed help. I know it wasn't helpful and I'm sorry.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

The cow party consisted of us brushing him down, singing the birthday song to him and giving him a bucket of grain. The twins wanted to put a candle in his hay for him to blow out. Hello fire risk? Lmao!!

Today dd is having a birthday party for her favorite stuffed animal. She made invitations for her friends and everything. I nixed ordering a birthday cake. She's making box mix brownies instead.

Dragon story and dragonvale are both fun iPod games. He might like those.

Did you see my post about using pokemon cards as bribery? Maybe you can do that with the yu go oh cards instead? It couldn't hurt to try.

As for the posts inkster made, ignore them. Someone is trying to stir up trouble where there is none. No calls to CPS are being made. And certainly not from me. I'm not out to get you and I don't think anyone else is. Inkster seems to think that for whatever reason and he/she can go fly a kite.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 

Just checking in to see how you all are doing this morning.
I have to be honest here. All my talk about getting up with the alarm clock? Ummm. Well.... I didn't even hear it this morning. I didn't get up till 8:30! Omg! To some that doesn't seem bad but for me it is. My animals were pissed off this morning! Cows were bellowing loud enough to be heard in China, goats were whining, horses were stomping and making loud horse noises. Loretta's udder was so full it looked like it was going to explode. Oops!
Everyone was looking at me with a "WTF dude?" look on their faces.
I'm way behind schedule today. Thankfully there's nothing pressing to do today or I'd really be screwed. Lmao!
This actually made me laugh out loud - because dd2 woke me up at about 6:45 (earlier than usual)...and ds2 didnt' get up until almost 9:00 (later than usual). So, I actually was up before him!

SB, can you share the things that are going well in your life? Maybe we can brainstorm on how to build on those things so that the bad things don't seem so overwhelming?
Decluttering. It's going slowly, but we're making progress, and I don't agonize over everything anymore. (I used to have conscience attacks over throwing out a jigsaw puzzle because the "home" puzzle might still be around, or throwing out a 1cm stub of a crayoh, because that was "wasteful", or throwing away a sock/mitten/slipper that I hadn't seen the mate for in a year and a half, because the mate might still be around - you probably get the picture. I'm so glad I don't do that, anymore - it makes cleaning and decluttering, even a little bit, into an amazingly slow and painful process...and it's hard to find a place to put all those orphan items!)
Homeschooling - field trips (love hitting the aquarium, etc. when it's not busy), home experiments, like building volcancoes, growing butteflies from caterpillars, etc. We may be renting an incubator and hatching some chicks next year. I love all that stuff.
Friends - I have some amazing people in my local homeschooling community. They absolutely rock. I have more social support than I've ever had before.
Lots of little stuff. (Some of this is what I'm worried about losing if I need to implement a lot of structure and routine, especially as dd1 really thrives with it.) I love being able to spontaneously say, "hey - you guys want to go to Beatty and see the blue whale skeleton?", being able to hang in our PJs for half a day if we're all feeling a bit run down (since people seem to think I sit on my ass all the time, I'll point out that I can wash dishes, make meals, do laundry, etc. in my PJs...and do), being able to just start a craft project, because dd1 wants to do one. I just love the flexibility of scheduling that we have. (We do have some schedule, as the kids are always in some activities and such - it's just really loose.)
DH. Nothing to do there, really. We have our little bumps, like any couple, but he's amazing. I'd say he's my rock, but rocks don't do it for me, yk?
Food. We eat really well - almost everything from scratch (previous comments about pizza, notwithstanding). My kids eat more veggies than almost any kid I know. DD1, in particular, thinks a lot about the nutritional content of her food, and what constitutes a balanced meal. DS2 operates on the "why can't I have four bananas, three apples, five plums and a whole box of strawberries - if a little is good, a lot is better" approach, but I think he's getting it a bit.
Choir. We're on summer break, but it's excellent "me time" and has pushed my comfort zone hard...and it's fun to hear the kids singing my repertoire around the house.









What are the things you want to change? We can figure out plans to help you implement those changes.
Honestly, I mostly want to find more energy and mental focus. I'm way too easily distracted, and tired all the time. If possible, I need to close the diastasis in my abs, and just...forget about my exercises for days at a time (am doing them right now, because my post reminded me). I need to get shoes. I keep letting that slide, but it's really becoming crucial. The one pair I have is hurting my feet, and full of holes. That's definitely affecting my activity level! Get some help for ds2 - definitely need to stop doing the "I'm just over-reacting" thing. I should also look into mother's helper. Actually, I could probably pay my nephew (17) for a couple days a week this summer...hmm...wonder if he'd go for it...

I know your anxiety about making the call tomorrow is probably ramping up. What can I do to help you work through it so that when you make the call you can make yourself be heard? If you want my cell number, I'll send it. I can cheerlead you tomorrow morning before you call and then be a support for after. Making this call is going to be hard, no doubt about it. I'm available to help in anyway you need.
I actually just remembered that one of my homeschool friends is planning to visit tomorrow. I'll make the call after she gets here. Her son is one of ds2's three real friends, and she's really supportive. (She was here on Thursday, too - came in about two minutes after dd2 knocked over the lamp, and helped me clean up glass and wrangle kids. her timing was superb! She's also under directions from me to nag me about calling the doctor.
I'm here for you. I do care. Not only about your DS, but about you too.


>


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue*
> 
> The cow party consisted of us brushing him down, singing the birthday song to him and giving him a bucket of grain. The twins wanted to put a candle in his hay for him to blow out. Hello fire risk? Lmao!!
> Today dd is having a birthday party for her favorite stuffed animal. She made invitations for her friends and everything. I nixed ordering a birthday cake. She's making box mix brownies instead.
> ...


I know from some previous experiences that posting on the net isn't always that safe. (My SIL took it upon herself to come here, solely to read my posts, after Aaron died, then took a printout of some of them to my mom, to get my mom to "do something". I have no idea what she was supposed to do, as this was after my baby had already died, but...yeah.) I also know for a fact that someone else was badmouthing me a few years ago - don't even remember if it was on TWWS or somewhere else. Yeah - it sucked. But, it really doesn't bother me. If people think they know everything that goes on in my life, from the fact that I post (mostly) the crappy stuff, I can't do anything about that.

I hope nobody calls CPS. I don't need the stress, and neither do my kids. But, if they do, they do. We'll manage, one way or another. As much as it freaks me out, a worker coming here would see three happy, bright, healthy kids (they probably wouldn't see ds1, as he's not home that much, but he's also outside their mandate, being 19), a fridge and pantry full of healthy food, and a house roughly as messy as one would expect, when a three year old tornado is busily pulling things off shelves, dumping cereal, etc. We stay mostly on top of it (certainly no food on the floor), but it's not a showplace. If people think we never leave the house, there are lots of neighbours, friends, extended family, teachers, etc. who could prove them wrong - heck, the cashiers at the big grocery store all know me, and mostly know my kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *eclipse* 

Stormbride, I want to second the recommendation (from dragonflyblue, I think) to write a script for the phone calls you need to make. I have huge anxiety issue wrt the phone, particularly when it comes to making calls to make appointments and this really helps me. It seems ridiculous while I'm writing it down, but it really does help to have that paper in front of me that says, "Hi, my name is Jeri X. My son is a patient of Dr. Y and I'm calling to schedule an appointment for Z. We prefer mid-morning appointments and we can't make it on Fridays," or something like that. I also make sure I have the insurance information, social security numbers, anything they might ask for written on the page and clearly labelled. The phone calls never end up being as bad as my anxiety convinces me they'll be, either







.
The script suggestion was brilliant! I can't believe I never thought of it before. It's probably because I've always tended to store info in my head, instead of making notes. I need to stop that, as I forget things too much.


> I've been following this thread, but haven't posted because I didn't really know what to say. It sounds like your in a bad place mentally/emotionally right now. It also sounds like you have some health/pain issues going on, and that can make everything else seem exponentially worse. I remember how defeating it felt when my back was really messed up and I could barely walk to the bathroom for months, let alone chase my kids around. I'm concerned, though, that you might have physical/health issues that aren't being addressed due to your fear of doctors. Do you have ANY health care providers you trust, even a little? Family, friends, friends of friends? Someone who can make a recommendation for you. I know your phobia is severe, but I'd hate for you to miss out on treatment that could actually help for what sounds like chronic pain and exhaustion. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted anything you've posted here - it's hard to tell what's going on in someone's life from a few posts on the internet.


The real pain is the back, and it's really intermittent. It hadn't bothered me in weeks and flared up again about...Tuesday, I think. It seems to be receding a bit now. It's my sacroiliac joint, and, so far, it doesn't get bad if I baby it. (My first flare up was on the way back from ds1's gymnastics championships in...early March, I think, 2010. That one pretty much crippled me until I got physio - think you call it physical therapy in the US, and the therapist gave me some basic exercises to try when it flares up...and rest with ice. I haven't had it get that bad since.) I can self-treat it easily (and I did see my doctor when it first happened - that's how I got the referral for physio).

The other pain is feet and knees, and muscle tension. I've always had serious issues with muscle tension, and they're getting worse as I get older. My feet and knees are mostly a combination of being overweight, and spending my whole life in shoes that don't fit. There's really not a lot that can be done with it. Once I get new shoes (hmm...that's coming up a lot - think this has been limiting me more than I'd realized!), and can do more walking and such, it should improve somewhat.

I was having menstrual migraines for about a year. Those almost drove me insane, and definitely negatively impacted my parenting. After I started eating sunflower seeds again, they vanished. After digging around online, I figured out that I probably had a magnesium deficiency and the seeds fixed it. It wasn't intentional, but I'm glad it happened!

My biggest issue is the fatigue. I feel as if I'm anemic, but my bloodwork (had it done about a year ago, but was just as tired then) came back okay. I think it's really just the cumulative effect of four pregnancies and c-sections in six years, breastfeeding, and sleep deprivation. DD2 stopped waking me up 3X a night about 6-7 months ago, which has helped a little. I also need to drink more water. I always used to, but I've been pretty bad ever since I had ds2. The nerve damage to my bladder really messed me up, and I started to avoid fluids, so I just don't have to deal with it....really dumb move! I've been making a conscious effort to drink more, but I don't always remember. I'm sure the dehydration isn't helping.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

*People who have depression usually see everything with a more negative attitude. They cannot imagine that any problem or situation can be solved in a positive way.

Symptoms of depression can include:

Agitation, restlessness, and irritability

Becoming withdrawn or isolated

Difficulty concentrating

Dramatic change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss

Fatigue and lack of energy

Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness

Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and guilt

Loss of interest or pleasure in activities that were once enjoyed

Thoughts of death or suicide

Trouble sleeping or too much sleeping*

Are you sure you aren't depressed? Because it does look like it from the outside. My mother always had what she called "stop signs" everywhere. My brother need help, but it required talking to people she didnt like:stop sign. We needed a new item but the house was too cluttered and she couldnt figure out space for it: stop sign. She couldnt control when we woke up and went to bed: stop sign.

This idea that no matter what you do, you have no control over your own life or what happens is, to me, a big symptom of depression. I know you don't like doctors, but it may be worth while to medicate so you can pull yourself out of this funk and get some changes happening in your house. I know you've dealt with a lot, and I know how doctors make you feel, saying you don't want their help isn't getting you anywhere. Whose help DO you want?


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Sounds like there are a lot of fun things going on at your place!

I know you have a fear of doctors. How do you feel about the ob who helped you through your pregnancy with Jenna? Is he/she someone you have a bit of trust in? If so maybe you could go in and have a blood panel drawn. Check your thyroid, your progesterone levels and all that jazz? My body produces too much estrogen and not enough progesterone. I was fighting fatigue and the mental clarity you struggle with. The progesterone pills she gave me have helped so much! I take an anti-depressant that also helps with my anxiety. Between those two things, I've made great progress.

You may have some physical or hormonal things going on that can be causing some of your problems. If you can get that addressed it could help you so much. Again, it means facing your fears and finding inner strength. I know you have that in you. How do I know? You lost a child. You lost your precious son and here you are, breathing, living. You didn't give up your life to your pain. You may have lost your bearings, but you are still here. Still loving your family, still waking up each day. Still looking for joy in the small things.

That takes incredible inner strength! You have it! You need to latch on to it and let it guide you in ways to help yourself and your family get to where you want to be.

As for routine in my life? If it sounds like I'm a drill Sargent, I'm so not! I'm very fly by the seat of my pants. There are some things that are routine. But much of our days are spent spent doing whatever strikes our fancy. I get up each morning and do my barn chores, feed the animals, milk the cow and go back up to the house. I filter the milk, take the cream out, wash my milking pails and then the day is open for anything we want to do. I'm back down in the barn between 5-6 pm for night feeds and chores. They don't take too long unless I sit on my phone. Lmao!!!

I am making trips down with the kids every four hours to feed some orphaned goats of the neighbors but once they are old enough to not have milk anymore, they will go back home.

As for shoes, just do it. Get online today and order them. Don't think of it as a chore that has to be done. Think of it as a perk, a treat for yourself. Something to do just for you! Don't think about going for walks or exercising or what the shoes will be for. Just get them. As a special something for you. You deserve to have a decent pair of shoes. Treat yourself!

I know what youean about your dh. Rock isn't the right word. My dh and I have been through hell. We've come close to giving up. But he is my best friend. My support person, I draw strength from him when I can't find my own. He is my world. He makes it possible for mento get through the hard things. I am so glad you have that with James! Never let that go.

I'm glad you have support people, ones who will call you out if needed or nudge you when needed. My mom is crazy. Her support consists of tearinge down and pointing out my flaws. My sister though? She is amazing! She is an LCSW and used to work for cps. She can call me out while being supportive. She can say the things I need to hear in gentle, loving ways. She is such a great sister! I'm so blessed to have gotten closer to her and having her be more of a presence in my life.

I have such empathy for you. I will admit that I haven't always had that. You know that saying about shit biting you on the ass to give you clarity and even humble you a bit? Yeah. That would be me. LoL. I do hope that you feel some amount of trust in me and that you don't doubt my sincerity. I swear to you, on the graves of my children that my sincerity is real. That my offers of support are real.

My phone is almost dead and I have brownie making to supervise. I'll check back in a bit though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay - I know all these symptoms already. I'm actually fairly well read on the subject of depression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama* 

*Becoming withdrawn or isolated*
I'm not withdrawn or isolated. I'm an introvert, and I prefer a lot of time without a lot of people around, but that doesn't mean I never have people around, or that I can't call/email a friend and day, "hey - want to get together today?".
*Difficulty concentrating

Fatigue and lack of energy*
These are linked - the fatigue is causing the inability to concentrate. I see nothing to link them to depression, but I also never said I'm not depressed. I said I'm not severely depressed. I'm not. I'm mildly depressed...and strongly suspect it's a result of the long-term lack of sleep.

*Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness
Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and guilt*
I have guilt feelings over some things. They're justified and have nothing to do with depression. I'm not hopeless or helpless or worthless, and I don't hate myself. I had a really, really, really crappy day on Thursday and then got dogpiled with a lot of unwanted advice about parts of my life that had nothing to do with what was going on.

*Trouble sleeping or too much sleeping*
I've always been a poor sleeper. Even as a child, it would take me 30 minutes to drop off once my head hit the pillow. I still take a long time to conk, and I'm still prone to insomnia. But, my lack of sleep has more to do with a child who is running on a very short sleep cycle than anything else. It's aggravated by the fact that I've never been able to nap worth spit. So, even if I get mid-day downtime, I usually can't sleep. I'm getting more sleep now than I was for the first 2.5 years of dd2's life, so it's picking up. But, long-term fatigue doesn't just disappear overnight. I've been pushing myself past my energy level for a long time - espeically the pregnancies. Even when I had dd1, I was just barely recovered from the effects of severe long-term sleep deprivation, stress, etc. Pregnancy and surgery were a huge strain on me, physically. I'm mildly depressed, but not even remotely seriously. I'm just really tired. (Most of the time, I'm not even mildly depresed, but I have a head cold. When I get sick, I get depressed - it's a symptom, just as much as sneezing, congestion, etc. That probably sounds weird, but I'm used to it, and don't really think about it.)
Are you sure you aren't depressed? Because it does look like it from the outside.
Sure. Mildly. It's not a big deal.
My mother always had what she called "stop signs" everywhere. My brother need help, but it required talking to people she didnt like:stop sign. hmm...yellow light, maybe. We're working on it. I should have pressed on when I had such a bad time with the first referral, but I didn't - can't go back now. We needed a new item but the house was too cluttered and she couldnt figure out space for it: stop sign. If we need a new item, we'll make room for it, but it takes time.Again - not a stop sign. She couldnt control when we woke up and went to bed: stop sign. ummm....not even sure what to say to this one. I've never controlled when my kids woke up. We do control when the older ones go to bed, but I've never controlled that with a really little one, either. I have no desire to control it, so it's not really a stop sign, either - more of a philosophical standpoint.
This idea that no matter what you do, you have no control over your own life or what happens is, to me, a big symptom of depression. I know you don't like doctors, but it may be worth while to medicate so you can pull yourself out of this funk and get some changes happening in your house. I know you've dealt with a lot, and I know how doctors make you feel, saying you don't want their help isn't getting you anywhere. Whose help DO you want? We're making changes in our house. We make them all the time. We're tortoises, not hares, so it may not look like it to other people. My house less cluttered than it used to be, despite a crazy little toddler (totally meant with affection - her nickname, even at three, is "Crazy Baby" - she's a nut.) We're eating better. The kids did more learning activities this year than any other, etc. etc. etc.


> I'm not taking anti-depressants again. I took them before. I thought they worked, but when I went off them, it made no difference. I kicked my idiot ex out, and my depression went away. Help? I don't particularly want anyone's help - but I accept it from friends and family, and a mother's helper would be kind of nice. I do NOT need some so-called "expert" mucking around in my head.


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## Luckiestgirl (Nov 10, 2004)

Just wanted to say that comments directing the OP to put her children in school are really out of line, and reflect a real bias against homeschooling. Even in cases where a parent is depressed, school isn't a quick fix. It creates new stresses and time demands. I would no sooner tell someone posting in the Gentle Discipline forum to put their kids in school than I would tell someone to quit breastfeeding.


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## inkster (Jul 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luckiestgirl*
> 
> Just wanted to say that comments directing the OP to put her children in school are really out of line, and reflect a real bias against homeschooling. Even in cases where a parent is depressed, school isn't a quick fix. It creates new stresses and time demands. I would no sooner tell someone posting in the Gentle Discipline forum to put their kids in school than I would tell someone to quit breastfeeding.


Agreed.

Storm Bride please have your son lock down his facebook account, as should you. These women are vicious and this is not the first time CPS, family members, schools, & workplaces have been called from this group out of misplaced "concern."


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

StormBride, I'm glad to hear that you have a friend coming over when you plan on calling. Maybe she can be a support for drs visits and stuff? I always do better with those when I have either someone with me to back me up, or have things written down and can go through them like a checklist.

My two boys sound so much like your son, my heart just hurts. There have been trials, but so much joy, and I'm glad to read the happiness you've been posting the last 24 hours. I'd just read so much concern in the previous posts! If you ever want to talk about aspergers, just PM me. I'm not judging anything, I know how it goes.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luckiestgirl*
> 
> Just wanted to say that comments directing the OP to put her children in school are really out of line, and reflect a real bias against homeschooling. Even in cases where a parent is depressed, school isn't a quick fix. It creates new stresses and time demands. I would no sooner tell someone posting in the Gentle Discipline forum to put their kids in school than I would tell someone to quit breastfeeding.


As much as I believe in breastfeeding, there are times when I would give someone this advice. I don't think homeschooling is always the best choice. People mention school because it's a source of evaluations, childcare, and other services. If school is the best wasy to access those services, I think it's worth it.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Hey inkster? How about you get things right? The vast majority of comments stated that ds1 was handsome and looked like a very loving sibling to the littles. Nobody said anything negative about him. Nobody!

These vicious life wrecking folks? Paid for my son's headstone. Sent me a handmade blanket after he passed. Sent cards, flowers and gifts. How horrible of them!

They've sent help to members in many ways. Monetary help, physical first person help, help with clothing for kids and others. They've fundraised, paypal'd and given in so many ways. So how about you take your drama seeking lies somewhere else. Your bs song and dance are a farce.


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## inkster (Jul 8, 2012)

Hey DragonFlyBue? Your concern and advice would be taken much more seriously if Storm Brides replies were not being screen caped to use against her.

This is a group of adult women who sleuthed out a teenage boy to gain access to his pictures to prove his mother is unfit - these are the people you are defending. The pictures from Storm Bride, her husband, and her sons accounts were then passed around in PM's while members proceeded to gossip about the squalor. This families personal information - full names and address - was also passed around in PM's. If this group is as wonderful as you say it is, they would be trying to help instead of hurt. I did not say anyone said anything negative about the child - but they did essentially internet stalk him to gain their proof.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Please stop, if you didn't notice SB doesn't spend her time with that kind of Drama. She already said she knew about the site and has no intention of going over there to read that. You need to figure out what your goal is here. Are you trying to hurt her more? You haven't offered her any sound advice you're just here to stir up crap. Are you upset that she's basically ignored you?


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I've not screen capped anything. Not once. I posted after I blew up here and was worried about getting banned. I asked for my words here, on that post to be sc'd. My own words. Nobody elses.

There were no addresses posted. Not once. Nobody posted names other than names SB has up here.

Your grammar is a give away to who you are. If memory serves, you were ran off that board because you were an ignorant dill hole. You posted horrid crap, got called on it and ran off with your tail between your legs. So, keep doing the same garbage posting here. At least you are true to form.


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## inkster (Jul 8, 2012)

You're right - SB does not need any extra drama in her life. This should have been done outside of the board. DFB - I was not talking about you in regards to the screen cap. You have given good advice - but you are naive to think that 'trolls' are not using her continued response to further their cause.

I will delete my previous posts and contact SB outside of the forums.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inkster*
> 
> Hey DragonFlyBue? Your concern and advice would be taken much more seriously if Storm Brides replies were not being screen caped to use against her.
> 
> This is a group of adult women who sleuthed out a teenage boy to gain access to his pictures to prove his mother is unfit - these are the people you are defending. The pictures from Storm Bride, her husband, and her sons accounts were then passed around in PM's while members proceeded to gossip about the squalor. This families personal information - full names and address - was also passed around in PM's. If this group is as wonderful as you say it is, they would be trying to help instead of hurt. I did not say anyone said anything negative about the child - but they did essentially internet stalk him to gain their proof.


If this crap is really going on, then I'm sorry people can't find better ways to spend their time. There's nothing on my Facebook that worries me. For one thing, any "squalor" is fairly irrelevant, as I don't think I've posted a photo in well over six months. (I only cleared pics off my camera a week or so ago, and they went all the way back to Halloween. I haven't uploaded any of them.) My house is a mess. My house has always been a mess. But, there's never a problem with access (eg. fire safety issues, etc.), and it's not dirty. Our downstairs (where almost all pics are taken) just tends to be piled with toys, and I don't feel the need to vacuum before I take a pic of my kids, yk? I take them when I take them. My kitchen counters are piled with stuff...but any dishes are no more than a day old, and most of whats' on there is cereal boxes, sugar cannisters, unopened boxes/bags of things, etc. If someone thinks that's CPS worthy, they can knock themselves out.

I always intended to keep my online name and real life name completely separate. That slipped when I started meeting local MDC mamas, and went right down the tubes when I started posting to ICAN. (There were lots of people who could recognize me there, where I used my real name, from my posts here, where I don't.) There are at least dozens, possibly hundreds, of people who can match my real name (and it's not a super common one) with my user name here. At least one of them has stirred trouble against me before. I really don't have the emotional energy to worry about who's out to get me. It all seems really middle school, to be honest.

I really don't give a crap. If people have nothing better to do than gossip about my life, I feel sorry for them. CPS would suck - but they're not going to hurt me, because there's nothing to address here, except for ds2's issues, which I'm calling about tomorrow. So...whatever

Time to do dishes. We had a lovely family day at a semi-local waterfall (an hour's drive), and I'm wiped. If I don't get the breakfast/lunch stuff cleaned up, I'm going to want to cry when I come downstairs tomorrow!


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

I reported fauxcrunch's post.

Quote:


> Honestly, I mostly want to find more energy and mental focus. I'm way too easily distracted, and tired all the time. If possible, I need to close the diastasis in my abs, and just...forget about my exercises for days at a time (am doing them right now, because my post reminded me). I need to get shoes. I keep letting that slide, but it's really becoming crucial. The one pair I have is hurting my feet, and full of holes. That's definitely affecting my activity level! Get some help for ds2 - definitely need to stop doing the "I'm just over-reacting" thing. I should also look into mother's helper. Actually, I could probably pay my nephew (17) for a couple days a week this summer...hmm...wonder if he'd go for it...


We had a mother's helper for a week when the kids were out of school and I wasn't (dh works from home, so technically, I guess she was a father's helper). It was awesome. Teenage unemployment is high in the US right now. If it's similar in Canada, I bet you can find someone. Maybe an older kid from your homeschool group if your nephew isn't up for it?

ETA: I ran a search for 6.5 and 7EEEE walking shoes on zappos: http://www.zappos.com/walking-shoes-sneakers-athletic-shoes/CK_XARC81wE6AtUL4gIDBwIB.zso?ot=walking+shoes&s=goliveRecentSalesStyle/desc/#!/walking-shoes-women-sneakers-athletic-shoes/CK_XARC81wE6AtULegTUBNkEggEEnhiNGMABAeICBgcCARgPDw.zso?ot=walking+shoes&s=goliveRecentSalesStyle/desc/

They don't have a 5E option - still looking.

Found this: http://www.zappos.com/propet-mary-jane-walker-black-leather


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm not sure if t works like this in Canada but in Australia people can self-refer to physios and other allied health services like podiatrists. If that's also the case where you are maybe it would be worth another physio appointment so you can be reassessed and get a new program if it's needed. And a podiatrist may be able to do inserts for your shoes which might help. The one my mum saw did home visits to assess her and then return with the inserts for her shoes.

ETA - I know you've mentioned that you thInk the fatigue is related to pregnancies and surgeries but is sleep apnoea a possibility? It's not uncommon and can result in major issues with fatigue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *katelove* 

I'm not sure if t works like this in Canada but in Australia people can self-refer to physios and other allied health services like podiatrists. If that's also the case where you are maybe it would be worth another physio appointment so you can be reassessed and get a new program if it's needed.
I don't need a new program. I just never know when my back will flare up. The sacroiliac thing is apparently a fairly common side effect of pregnancy, and I was told that it's permanent, but it's not always active, yk? I can deal with it within a few days now - just a PITA when it's flaring up (which it was when I posted this thread, hence some of my bad mood).
And a podiatrist may be able to do inserts for your shoes which might help. The one my mum saw did home visits to assess her and then return with the inserts for her shoes.
I thought of that, and had a full gait analysis and all that done a couple of months ago. Apparently, I don't need anything. I just need to get my silly shoes.
ETA - I know you've mentioned that you thInk the fatigue is related to pregnancies and surgeries but is sleep apnoea a possibility? It's not uncommon and can result in major issues with fatigue.


> I don't have any reason to think so, but I have wondered about that - more in a "WTF is going on? sense than anything else.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Luckiestgirl*
> 
> Just wanted to say that comments directing the OP to put her children in school are really out of line, and reflect a real bias against homeschooling. Even in cases where a parent is depressed, school isn't a quick fix. It creates new stresses and time demands. I would no sooner tell someone posting in the Gentle Discipline forum to put their kids in school than I would tell someone to quit breastfeeding.


I'm one of the posters who suggested putting the kids in school as one possible solution. Although I'm a teacher and a parent of a schooled child, I'm actually also a big believer in homeschooling. I don't have a bias against homeschooling. I do however have a bias towards being flexible, and finding solutions that work for a family, rather than adhering to one specific ideology. I'd love to homeschool my child, I think he'd thrive, I think I'd find it incredibly rewarding. But I also know that for my family the cost of homeschooling, which would be sacrificing our only income, would simply be too high.

Storm Bride, it sounds like there are lots of wonderful things going on in your house and family. I never assumed otherwise. However, that doesn't negate the fact that there are also safety concerns. If anything, it sounds like some of the wonderful things, like extended breast feeding, and letting the kids find their own rhythm and bedtime, and preparing all foods from scratch, and taking lots of field trips, and raising chickens, are contributing to your exhaustion to the point where you can sleep through a situation that was really dangerous and scary. From the outside, it seems like a situation where the perfect is the enemy of the good. I think MDC intensifies those situations because there are so many people who feel strongly about small details that they can lose sight of the forest for the trees. So, while I don't think that all kids belong in school, or even that your kids belong in school, I do think that school is one possible way to reduce your stress and get intervention for your son. Right now, the cost of all those wonderful things, homeschooling among them, is that you are too fatigued to keep the kids physically or emotionally safe. It may be that for your family, like my family, that cost is too high, and something will have to give.

Storm Bride, I also hear you saying that you acknowledge that you have symptoms of depression, but feel like they're due to exhaustion caused by things like your little one waking you up, and not a true chemical imbalance. Am I correct in that? If so, my thought is that while your symptoms may be totally understandable, they're still effecting your precious children. If you feel as though what you need to be able to be the parent you want to be is sleep, then you need to prioritize that. If it means checking into a hotel, for a few days while your DH does the nighttime parenting, or setting limits about staying in bed more firmly than you might otherwise, or getting some melatonin to help you fall asleep, then I'd encourage you to do it. If it means cancelling some of your planned outings and putting DS in one room, with an engaging video and a door alarm, and the girls in another room with instructions to play quietly so you can meditate? Then do it. Does it mean hiring that nephew to come to your house before your DH goes to work and take the two younger ones to the park for 3 hours? Do that. You need to take care of yourself. You need to do so because you are precious and you deserve to have your needs met, but also because you have 3 precious little ones who depend on you being available to them. You're clearly an intelligent, creative woman, and when you can't solve a problem like where to put the knives so that your child can't reach them, then something is getting in the way of your functioning. If it's lack of sleep then do what ever you need to do to get that sleep. If the fatigue is damaging your problem solving to the point where you can't figure out how to do that, then go to your friend, or to your DH, or to someone and lay this at their feet and ask them to help you.

I also wanted to say, I also stated that as a mandated reporter I would need to make a call if I knew one of my students was chased by or chasing another child with a knife, and dramatic steps such as locking up the knives and preventing unsupervised time wasn't put in place. Having said that, that doesn't mean I've taken steps to do so. I don't know anything about another site or FB or whatever.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Momily*
> 
> Storm Bride, it sounds like there are lots of wonderful things going on in your house and family. I never assumed otherwise. However, that doesn't negate the fact that there are also safety concerns. If anything, it sounds like some of the wonderful things, like extended breast feeding, and letting the kids find their own rhythm and bedtime, and preparing all foods from scratch, and taking lots of field trips, and raising chickens, are contributing to your exhaustion to the point where you can sleep through a situation that was really dangerous and scary.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> I reported fauxcrunch's post.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

For closure on the CPS/TWWS thing:

I've told ds1 about it, so he has the option of closing up his security settings if he wants. I'm sure he never expected people to be looking for dirt on his mom when he shared pics of his siblings. For myself? I don't care. I have nothing on my Facebook that I want to hide. If I felt it needed to be hidden (not much of my life that qualifies, atthough I'm somewhat reticent about my sexual quirks), why the heck would I have it on Facebook in the first place? I think my kids rock, and if people look at my pics and see something to be ashamed of, I'm sorry for their eyesight.


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## MrsGregory (Dec 21, 2011)

StormBride, I've been reading, and you sound like so many people I know and I love, I just had to come back and give you a goofy little encouraging icon. I hope it conveys to you that I'm cheering for you - because I am.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

As am I!!!!!


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

How are you this morning? I'm sure your anxiety and fears are toying with you. I'm here, imagine me standing next to you as you make the call. Imagine my arms giving you a gentle hug as you hang up the phone after the call is made. You can do this. I'm really proud of you for taking this first step. You are awesome!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Actually, I have a headache, which is distracting me from nerves. 

My friend will be here in about half an hour (she doesn't live close to me), and then I'll get the first step over with.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

We need cheerleader smileys!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Cheerleaders for making a phone call would make me feel like twit.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

No need to feel like a twit.

When you start a new building what is the most important step to take first? It's a firm foundation. You can't build on swampland or soft ground. You need a firm foundation for a building that will withstand storms. Your foundation needs support to build upon.

Think of us not as cheerleaders but as your foundation/support. We will hold you up as you build. We will be your support. We will be there to lean on as you build your safety net for your DS.

If needed we can be the bossy job foreman who nags at you to git er done.







.

I know I must sound awfully corny, but it's all I could come up with this morning. My brain is not functioning and I'm pissed off at myself. I forgot to lock the calves up last night and so they were with the milk cow all night. Damned buggers took all my milk. I'm about out and I really needed the milk today. Ugh!


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Cheerleaders for making a phone call would make me feel like twit.


No need at all to feel like a twit. Phone anxiety is a real thing! I think it's quite common. I struggle with it too. Definitely make the script before you make a call. It is SO helpful!


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Storm Bride you don't know me but I just wanted to say that I'm really proud of you today - I know how hard a phone call can be to make and you are facing it with true courage, obviously showing how much you love your son. I hope your day goes as easy as possible.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

We've received several reports about this thread so I am closing it until I've had a chance to look through everything. Thanks for your patience.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Thread reopened.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

How are you doing today SB?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Pretty good - woke up a with a bit more zip than usual, and finally dealt with my long overdue fridge freezer. It was a drag to see how much unusable food had actually built up in there, but it's so nice to have space to actually use the freezer properly again. As a bonus, I also found the really good ice pack for my back - thought it had been thrown out by dd2 last year (she went through one of those "throw random things in the garbage" phases, in a big way. It was actually way in the back of the freezer - think it had slipped off the pile of stuff.

I'd planned to pop out to the farm before lunch and skating (dd1 has lessons this week), but it's too late now. I guess we'll do something in the aafternoon, instead...if it's not too hot...maybe we'll go swimming again.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

All of my kids have gone through the chuck stuff in the trash phase. I've lost more tv remotes that way! Drives me crazy!

It's hot here. Over a 100 every day and looks like there's no end in sight. I cannot wait for winter!

Today's agenda is laundry, cleaning and making ice cream for later. I have my niece and a granddaughter here and the twins. All are happily cleaning. Caleb loves to mop and clean the appliance fronts so he's on that. Niece asked if she could wash windows. I'd have to be a fool to turn that down. Gd and livia are washing walls. I'm starting to wonder what they are gonna ask me for since they are all being so helpful! LMAO!!

Dh is finally putting a solid wall up in the barn between the chicken coop and the calf stall. I've been asking for that for months. I wonder what he is going to ask for? Haha!!

It's like aliens who want to clean and work have taken over everyone here. If I don't show up for a few days call the po po. The aliens may have taken me prisoner!







.

Back to work. Blah.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I finally grocery shopped. It was as bad as I thought it was going to be. They moved everything in my favorite grocery store and that was so frustrating to me. None of the aisle matched the signs.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

SB - I pm'd you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I finally grocery shopped. It was as bad as I thought it was going to be. They moved everything in my favorite grocery store and that was so frustrating to me. None of the aisle matched the signs.


Oh, I symphatise. A year or two ago, they moved everything in both the grocery store I like, and the grocery store that I don't like. Amazingly, the one I don't like was actually even harder to navigate afterwards. Half the aisles have different items on the sign, depending on which end you're at. They put things in weird places that make no sense. It's basically where I go for diapers, toilet paper, toothpaste, shampoo and soaps/detergents. It's cheap for those things. But, it's always...fraught.

The other store took a while to get the hang of, but it's fine now that I have it figured out.


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## mirina (Nov 14, 2011)

Well, after calming down I would explain what could happen by playing with knives and what are knives for - but no longer than 5 minutes. I would say that since this equipment is very attractive for him (it is a boy, right?), we need to move those sharp knives for some uncerteain time out of childrens' reach, so everybody stays safe. I would say that he is allowed to use knives when an adult is present. I would not punish him for that behaviour, because I think it can only harm his feelings and cripple his willing to co-operate in this matter. And you DO want him to co-operate, especially in such a serious matter like this.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I saw my family doctor today. He isn't sure who would be the best specialist referral for ds2 (agrees with me that someone in the child psychiatry field is the way to go), but is going to make some calls. He said he's putting it on an "urgent" basis, and when I commented that I know that's hard, because there are a lot of these kids these days, and not enough resources, he said, "I'll see if I can call in some markers". I mentioned the clinic I was talking about upthread, and he said, "I was thinking in that direction, too". So, hopefully, I'll hear something in the next couple of days.


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

Oh, good. I'm glad the doc seems to be on the same page.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

This is wonderful, in SO many ways.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I've been following this thread, but haven't had a chance to reply until now-- first of all, its awesome that you talked to the doc and that he is being responsive to your concerns and doing what he can, personally, to help.

Second of all, I just wanted to chime in with my opinion that I think you are probably the BEST mom possible for the son you described in your initial posts. Full disclosure, I'm a neuropsychologist, so I have 100% respect for the severity of anxiety AND for the complexity of possible ADHD/behavior problems etc...so I am definitely NOT just blowing sunshine up your butt  Number one, since you are skeptical of the medical profession (yes, I realize that is putting it lightly!) when you DO move forward to try to work with medical professionals to help your DS- which you have already done- you in a GREAT position to be a selective and thoughtful consumer. As long as you are able to weigh both sides of any issue and not just react from a place of your own anxiety and past experiences (or at least able to get other's opinions to balance out your own initial responses) then you are likely going to be in an excellent spot to avoid just "going along" with what a doctor or therapist says because of their title. This is a great asset to your son. Second of all, I don't think that you'll have to give up all or even a lot of what makes your life feel special and meaningful to you and to your family, no matter what your son's diagnosis is... at least not for the long term. I think that some of the fear you have about that may be lessened if you try to take a long-range view (easier said than done, I know) and try to imagine a year of several down the line when things are much better for all of you. Your son may temporarily need increased structure, predictabilty, consequences etc. to help make up for impulse control and other issues (whatever the diagnosis is) but often the reigns can be loosened up after a while. Some skills will be taught and maturity can often really help kids...and even though you may end up needing to make some long-term changes, I'd bet that you don't have to change *everything* and that your lifestyle and parenting style will actually be extremely helpful to your son. For example, in terms of home schooling, you may end up having to be a bit more structured to make sure he gets any services he needs and/or gets certain academic info at a time/in a way that works best for him, but he's really, really going to benefit from the fact that you can build in unlimited movement/fun/physical activity breaks, can plan activities that are fun for him and rewarding and therefore act as easy reinforcement... you get my point.

Anyway, I'm so glad to see your update. Just take things one step at a time....


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

SB, I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with the others and I admire your strength and your love for your son. I know it isn't easy, but you're doing it. You're putting one foot in front of the other despite what must be an overwhelming challenge.Take credit for your actions and go easy on yourself for the days when it's harder to move forward. You are a great Mom and it's obvious you have the best interest of all you kids in mind.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Good job Lisa! I'm hoping everything turns out well. Lots of love!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks, all.

DS2 had a great day today. It's always terrific when that happens.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I kept meaning to write on this thread. My little brother was like this. He would go get steak knives and even literally threaten us with them. "I'm going to kill you!" It was nuts. I boutght him a few fake wooden swords at a fair and that seemed to take his interest away. He is now a college student at a good university and is the sweetest most helpful man ever. HE has serious communication issues but hes worked around them. I'm sure he could have benefited from help as a kid but I wanted tot ell you he is pretty fine. He grew out of the knife thing in a span of 6 months.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Just wanted to update...saw the first specialist (child psychiatrist) today. I actually didn't bring up autism, because I was just answering her questions. After having ds2 come in for a little bit, she brought up ASD, and advised me to do some reading on Aspergers. I'm seeing her (alone) again tomorrow, and she's planning to refer ds2 to the clinic I mentioned upthread. She said his behaviour is "quite typical" of kids with Aspergers.

So...not sure how long we'll be waitlisted once I see her tomorrow, but the wheels are turning a lot more quickly than the last time I tried this!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)




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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Lisa, that sounds like great news.









Good luck!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm so glad things are working out for you and your DS and I'm really happy to hear it's been much easier. Hugs Lisa!!!


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

This is such great news. I wanted to suggest a place that helped our family as they specialize in autism and mental health challenges, The Pfeiffer Medical Center. They can help you get a handle on your son's particular biochemistry so you can know more specifically how to help him.

Others may have already said this, but a class for you son where he can build things might help.

And, I wonder, as he's more difficult in the morning if his blood sugar gets too low. Would it help if he had a snack right before bed or something set out to eat first thing in the morning.

I'm glad you're close to a disgnosis. It's a hard journey. I hope you can get some rest.


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## minkin03 (May 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> This is such great news. I wanted to suggest a place that helped our family as they specialize in autism and mental health challenges, The Pfeiffer Medical Center. They can help you get a handle on your son's particular biochemistry so you can know more specifically how to help him.
> 
> ...


Not sure if you noticed, but stormbride lives in Vancouver which is rather far from Illinois.

Stormbride, glad to hear things are going well for you!


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