# Child peed on another child



## farmwife

My 6 year old daughter peed on a playmate today. My 6 year old and 4 year old were outside playing on a swingset with a friend's granddaughter who they just met that day. The swingset has a ladder with a clubhouse type structure at top. The friend's granddaughter, who is 4, starts crying and runs to her grandmother. My 6 year old was standing in the clubhouse and peed on her while she was underneath playing in the sandbox. I felt horrible!!! My 6 year old admitted that she peed on her. I asked her why she did it and she didn't have an answer. I am at a loss of what to do. I sent my daughter into the house for awhile telling her that if she couldn't play nice she needed to stay away from the other kids. But I don't feel like that's enough. My daughter is bright and usually friendly to everyone so I'm stunned this happened today. And thoughts?


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## Mark Lakewood

She knows why she behaved this way. I think that it is important for her to tell you why.

What I would recommend is that you give her a set time for timeout or a grounding, perhaps 6 minutes (one year per her age) with the condition that she can be released after the set time expires only if she tells you why she behaved the way she did.

I am sure that she is embarrassed about the event and not telling you why she behaved that way helps keep her to conceal the pain and the embarrassment of the event. However, she doesn't learn from the event unless she openly admits to it and states why she behaved in this fashion.


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## dalia

I have a different opinion than the previous post. "I don't know", especially for a child, IS an answer. She probably really doesn't know why she did it. I don't think punishment such as grounding or a time out makes sense, especially for something like this. I think lots of talks about it, in a compassionate and understanding manner, are in order. Maybe tell her that the two of you can try and find out why she felt she needed to do do that, and that in the future you can figure out alternatives to that kind of behavior, because it is never okay to pee on someone else.

I might also ask her if there is anything going on in her life that is bothering her or that she feels she is not in control of. Ask her how she felt when she did it and go from there. Maybe you can help her figure out why it happened.

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. So embarrassing!! I hope your friend isn't too judgemental about it and that her daughter is okay as well. You can always call your friend to check up on the daughter. Good luck!!


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## Mark Lakewood

I respectfully disagree with the last post. We all act and behave based on thoughts that we have at the time. Even young children have thoughts that entice good or bad behavior. I have worked with many kids and adults who when approached for their misbehavior, quickly stated 'I don't know why I did it". If the adult accepts this response, the child learns nothing from their behavior.

We are not always aware of the thoughts that we have at the time that entices us to do good or bad. But based on the Cognitive Theory model, it is important to become aware of our thoughts as this is an effective method to change behavior.

We need to have kids take ownership (responsibility) for their misbehavior, plain and simple. Urinating on someone is clearly inappropriate. Without a consequence, your child might not get the message that this behavior is inappropriate. If all you do is discuss this behavior with her, she may learn that to get your undivided attention (conversing), all she needs to do is urinate on someone. I realize this sounds silly, but we have to be cautious of the message we give to kids when it comes to behavioral expectations. We simply need to have kids to responsibility for their behavior. I just gave you one method. There are several methods that you can use.


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## ananas

Have there been any recent changes in her life, or any stressful events that have happened?


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## dalia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ananas*
> 
> Have there been any recent changes in her life, or any stressful events that have happened?


This is a very good question and certainly something to explore.


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## EnviroBecca

Mark Lakewood wrote:

Quote:


> I have worked with many kids and adults who when approached for their misbehavior, quickly stated 'I don't know why I did it". If the adult accepts this response, the child learns nothing from their behavior.


I've been that child. Several times when I misbehaved in various ways and someone demanded an explanation, I said, "I don't know." Usually I did know why but was embarrassed by the reason. One time, though--I was 10 years old, saw that someone had spelled out "Hi!" on the classroom corkboard in thumbtacks but someone else had taken some of the tacks elsewhere, and acted on a sudden whim to draw in the missing circles with a marker which permanently stained the cork--I genuinely did not know why I had done this thing I knew was wrong instead of suppressing the urge as I felt I should easily have been able to do.

It is absolutely untrue that I learned nothing from these behaviors or their consequences because I was not forced to state a reason for the behavior. In fact, my embarrassment over the true reason, or my bafflement over why I'd done such a dumb thing, was very troubling to me and caused me to worry about it, feel remorse for my effects on others, and strategize to avoid doing anything like it again.

I don't see any reason to think that Farmwife's daughter is trying to escape accountability for her behavior. She admitted to it. She accepted the consequence of being sent inside, which functioned exactly like a time-out in removing her from the situation.

Making her stay in time-out for 6 minutes but then letting her out only if she gives a reason for her behavior (or else what? Time-out forever?) is more likely to produce a false explanation than a true one. I mean, that's telling her that the secret to making this right is to say "why", and giving her time to focus on cooking up an explanation. Since the tactic shows no empathy for her feelings, it doesn't motivate her to confide the real reason.

I would guess that the most likely explanation is that she somewhere got the idea that peeing on someone is funny, but when she did it, she instantly knew from everyone's reaction that it was not funny at all but actually a terrible thing to have done. In that case, she has experienced the consequences of her actions and learned about what isn't acceptable.

What I would do at this point is talk with her about her feelings about this other little girl she just met. Maybe she liked the girl and is now upset that she did such an offensive thing that this girl probably won't want to play with her again. Maybe she didn't like the girl and would be relieved to talk about her feelings, although of course I'd come back to the point that we don't pee on anyone even if we don't like them. Next I'd say that the girl's feelings were very hurt and ask what she could do to help. Maybe she would be willing to write an apology note. I wouldn't force this--because forced apologies generally aren't very sincere--but if she wanted to write a note I'd be very supportive; I think that's probably the best way to make amends in this situation.


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## Mark Lakewood

When children misbehave, it is very important that they serve a consequence but also explain to you the reasoning for their behavior. Not only does this method serve to help children take responsibility for their behavior but also teaches them how to problem solve by taking advantage of those teachable moments so that they learn to make the right decision when approached with a similar conflict

What you never want to do is to assume why your daughter behaved a certain way as this will not fix anything. For a child that is the habit of stating 'I don't remember' or 'I don't know' when being corrected, it is vitally important that you add this piece to any consequence for an added incentive as without it, the consequence will be in vain.


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## dalia

If the consequence is purely punitive and has no real connection with the behavior, then it will always be in vain. The child, in this instance, is already experiencing a natural consequence by alienating her friend and feeling embarrassed. A time out has absolutely nothing to do with the actual behavior, it is simply an arbitrary thing imposed to control behavior, which in my opinion only teaches them how not to get caught. The child loses the opportunity to learn about life.

Peeing on another child can be an indicator of something going on in that child's life. Compassion and understanding are in order BIG TIME. I don't agree with time-outs in general, but in this case I feel it is the direct opposite of what is needed. This child needs to be heard. She needs help to understand what happened. It could be that something is going on in her life that she needs to talk about. The last thing I as a parent would want to do is shut her down.


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## NiteNicole

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> When children misbehave, it is very important that they serve a consequence but also explain to you the reasoning for their behavior. Not only does this method serve to help children take responsibility for their behavior but also teaches them how to problem solve by taking advantage of those teachable moments so that they learn to make the right decision when approached with a similar conflict
> 
> What you never want to do is to assume why your daughter behaved a certain way as this will not fix anything. For a child that is the habit of stating 'I don't remember' or 'I don't know' when being corrected, it is vitally important that you add this piece to any consequence for an added incentive as without it, the consequence will be in vain.


I must ask, have you spent much time with six year olds lately? It's not exactly easy to get a straight answer out of them and they often DON'T know what they're feeling or why they do the things they do.

You can keep badgering her till she gives you some kind of answer, but chances are "I don't know" means "I don't like her" or "I thought it would be funny" or "It popped in my head so I did it." It would take a pretty darn clever six year old to articulate any of that. If she's normally pretty well-behaved and not usually aggressive or disrespectful, she really may not know or she may not have the words to tell you. My daughter is seven and very bright, very articulate, and when it comes to explaining her feelings or motivations, forget it. She just doesn't have the skill to put the words together.

I think you need to let her know how disappointed you are, and talk about how embarrassed tho other girl must feel. And then I'd let her know that she wouldn't be going to the park, having friends over, etc for a while because you can't be sure she will be a respectful friend. And get her to apologize to the other little girl, even if it's a note.


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## sassyfirechick

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood* 


> Without a consequence, your child might not get the message that this behavior is inappropriate. If all you do is discuss this behavior with her, she may learn that to get your undivided attention (conversing), all she needs to do is urinate on someone. I realize this sounds silly, but we have to be cautious of the message we give to kids when it comes to behavioral expectations. We simply need to have kids to responsibility for their behavior. I just gave you one method. There are several methods that you can use.


Ok that is just baloney. Dogs require action without words because they do not comprehend human language - just body language and reactions. Humans on the other hand are fully capable of coming to a desired conclusion and realization through conversation that is age appropriate to their cognitive ability. Forcing someone to admission does nothing but perpetuate embarrassment and feelings of guilt. A simple discussion with a conclusion of "you did wrong, you understand why you did wrong, let's not do that again" is plenty sufficient for a child. What you are referring to with attention seeking behavior does not occur because you discuss rather than punish. On the contrary, punishment (or as you put it - consequences) draws MORE attention to a behavior and the most common principle of behavior is that attention, be it good OR bad, will perpetuate behavior. Negative attention in the absence of a positive reward, is still attention. It's why "bad kids" in school continue to misbehave. It's expected, so no one thinks to ignore the bad for a change and focus on their positive attributes, rather they constantly focus on "correcting" the bad thus allowing the child to practice the bad behavior over and over and over....

If the OP's child happens to be the least bit sensitive, your recommendations to force a confession out of her will only causer her to be more reserved in the future. I know, I was that child who's father always demanded words. Always demanded we admit and that we always "look him in the eye to do so". I can tell you right now it did nothing for our relationship and 30yrs later I'm not close at all to him. If she's defiant, well, it will just teach her to "not get caught" next time - not to avoid repeating the offense.


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## Mark Lakewood

You raise a good point. However, the question becomes at what age do we help kids learn how to articulate how they feel? We teach kids the words to use to communicate. Why can't we teach kids feeling words, words that they can use to express how they feel the next time they are in a similar situation?

I used to run socialization therapy groups with a large number of six year olds kids. I definitely think I have some experience in this area. As a therapist, I have worked with young children in terms of helping them identify their feelings by having them point to specific pictures depicting feeling expressions.

Many kids and adults choose to become angry at others or situations primarily because they have bottled up their feelings. Parents are oftentimes role models for this behavior. When kids see that their parents bottle up their feelings, they're likely to do the same. When kids and adults learn how to express themselves verbally, their anger will become much more manageable and nondestructive. Additionally, they will find problem solving much easier.

It is extremely important that we teach kids at a young age how to articulate how they feel as we will be teaching them a coping skill that they could use for future conflicts.


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## Mark Lakewood

I appreciate your feedback. However, I would appreciate it even more if you respect my feedback as I respect yours. You are fully entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. All that I am saying is that in order for all of us to take responsibility for our own behavior, we must admit that we had done wrong. For children, when we learn their line of thinking that led to the behavior, we are in a better position to teach them right from wrong as we can help them problem solve and find a better solution when they are pressured with a similar conflict. This is only common sense.


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## One_Girl

I have found that using language that forces the child to see things from the other person's point of view is very effective. I would ask if she wanted her friend to pee on her then ask her why not. After that I would ask how she thinks her friend felt and what she is going to do to help her friend feel better. I find that this is more effective than telling kids how their actions affected others.

I don't typically care why a child did something when it is a one time off the wall thing but if it happens again I would definitely look for reasoning and move on to consequences if it is an incredibly anti-social act. If there is an underlying reason for doing something, like she threw sand on me so I peed on her, it tends to come out while I talk to kids and we talk about the feelings behind that action and what to do instead next time. These are typical very short conversations but very effective with my DD and in every classroom I have worked in, even preschool.


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## Mark Lakewood

I terms of having kids take responsibility for their behavior, I prepared the following form that can be used in conjunction to a discipline. Or, this can be used as the discipline. I call it Report Writing. The parent would determine the response length per question. In order to be accepted, the report must be neat, logical, and appropriate to the situation. This report is obviously only for older kids who have writing skills. However, there is no reason why non writing kids can't verbally answer the same questions. The child should be in a secluded area such as a grounding. However, the length of time they are grounded can be based on when they complete the report to your satisfaction.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TB1BumnL1V1jSlhU-PmnoxizSGWycsiffzCsQ0symPg/edit?usp=sharing

This technique is very similar to writing sentences as I had to do plenty of times (lol). The problem with writing sentences, and I know from first hand experience, is that I got nothing out of it primarily because I simply wrote the same words over and over again. With the report, however, kids really need to acknowledge wrong doing and accept responsibility.


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## Mark Lakewood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> I have found that using language that forces the child to see things from the other person's point of view is very effective. I would ask if she wanted her friend to pee on her then ask her why not. After that I would ask how she thinks her friend felt and what she is going to do to help her friend feel better. I find that this is more effective than telling kids how their actions affected others.
> 
> I don't typically care why a child did something when it is a one time off the wall thing but if it happens again I would definitely look for reasoning and move on to consequences if it is an incredibly anti-social act. If there is an underlying reason for doing something, like she threw sand on me so I peed on her, it tends to come out while I talk to kids and we talk about the feelings behind that action and what to do instead next time. These are typical very short conversations but very effective with my DD and in every classroom I have worked in, even preschool.


Again my opinion, but I think it is very important for us to know the child's reasoning for their misbehavior after the very first incident. The goal here is to prevent it from happening again.


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## mamazee

I'm not a fan of relying on behaviorism. People are complicated, and the carrot/stick method is simplistic. People's reasons for doing bad behavior are complicated, and I don't think their problems can be solved by making them feel bad. Behaviorism places too much emphasis on behavior, and not enough on emotions. Plus, kids who have done something wrong turn themselves into the victim when they're punished. Instead of feeling bad for what they've done, they start to feel angry for having been punished and feel they are the victim instead of the person they hurt. I find this to be counter-productive.

I try to look past behavior and look at the reason for the behavior. Do you have any idea why she might have done it? Jealousy? Did she feel left out? Did she get angry about something? It sounds like attention-seeking behavior so my guess is that she felt left out, but I'd have a conversation with her about it. Then I'd try to problem-solve with her - give her some strategies about how she can deal with whatever she was feeling in the future. If she feels left out, what could she say to the other children to get included?

I try to keep on the same side of my kids when something bad happens. She already had to deal with the negative social reaction of her friend to getting peed on, and the embarrassment about it. I wouldn't want to make her feel worse yet. I'd try to stay on her side and help her figure out how to manage her emotions and deal with her unhappiness better.


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## Mark Lakewood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I'm not a fan of relying on behaviorism. People are complicated, and the carrot/stick method is simplistic. People's reasons for doing bad behavior are complicated, and I don't think their problems can be solved by making them feel bad. Behaviorism places too much emphasis on behavior, and not enough on emotions. Plus, kids who have done something wrong turn themselves into the victim when they're punished. Instead of feeling bad for what they've done, they start to feel angry for having been punished and feel they are the victim instead of the person they hurt. I find this to be counter-productive.
> 
> I try to look past behavior and look at the reason for the behavior. Do you have any idea why she might have done it? Jealousy? Did she feel left out? Did she get angry about something? It sounds like attention-seeking behavior so my guess is that she felt left out, but I'd have a conversation with her about it. Then I'd try to problem-solve with her - give her some strategies about how she can deal with whatever she was feeling in the future. If she feels left out, what could she say to the other children to get included?
> 
> I try to keep on the same side of my kids when something bad happens. She already had to deal with the negative social reaction of her friend to getting peed on, and the embarrassment about it. I wouldn't want to make her feel worse yet. I'd try to stay on her side and help her figure out how to manage her emotions and deal with her unhappiness better.


I totally agree with your second paragraph as this is exactly what I have been saying.

Hopefully, she feels bad for what she has done. We all need to feel bad when we do something wrong. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad. Discipline is not meant to make one feel bad. If this is the goal of discipline, then it is being used wrong. Discipline is to teach right from wrong.

Lets not forget the victim in this case. Maybe there needs to be more emphasis on how the victim felt. When we focus on the victims' feelings, empathy has a chance to develop.


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## sassyfirechick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I'm not a fan of relying on behaviorism. People are complicated, and the carrot/stick method is simplistic. People's reasons for doing bad behavior are complicated, and I don't think their problems can be solved by making them feel bad. Behaviorism places too much emphasis on behavior, and not enough on emotions. Plus, kids who have done something wrong turn themselves into the victim when they're punished. Instead of feeling bad for what they've done, they start to feel angry for having been punished and feel they are the victim instead of the person they hurt. I find this to be counter-productive.


*THANK YOU!*



> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> Hopefully, she feels bad for what she has done. We all need to feel bad when we do something wrong. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad.


No, except when someone is being *made* to feel bad. Feeling bad should come naturally as a result of learning social skills. It can be learned by a quick, gentle discussion. Making someone dwell on the issue writing it down, admitting over and over they were wrong...it's demoralizing, degrading, and will cause a shut down that just isn't' necessary. These techniques are not new - they've been proven ineffective time and time again because anything punishment oriented (which is what this is - grounding is a punishment) will yield "predictably unpredictable" results. I too am educated in behavior and while it's something to consider when dealing with multiple occurrences, it shouldn't' be a go to every time a child makes a mistake. Mistakes are how we learn. How we as adults respond to these mistakes will shape how our children will relate to others in the long run. I'd rather not teach my child that mistakes are met with punishment, therefore it is advisable to not try new things or put yourself out there because if you fail, you will be made an example of.


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## Mark Lakewood

Wow! When did feeling bad or sad become a crime? How can we ever determine if a child feels bad because of their behavior or the discipline imposed? Maybe we shouldn't hold kids responsible for their behaviors if the discipline might make them feel bad. How did we as a society get to the point of making 'discipline' a bad word?


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## dalia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> Wow! When did feeling bad or sad become a crime? How can we ever determine if a child feels bad because of their behavior or the discipline imposed? Maybe we shouldn't hold kids responsible for their behaviors if the discipline might make them feel bad. How did we as a society get to the point of making 'discipline' a bad word?


Just because a parent chooses not to punish does not mean they do not believe in discipline. Getting to the root of the issue by gently helping your child understand the situation IS discipline. In fact, it teaches REAL discipline, meaning it makes them want to do better, not just avoid punishment.

There are many, many people in our society who do unsavory things and don't think a thing of it because they know they won't get caught. Look at the phenomenon of freely ridiculing people on the Internet, such as taking photos of them without their knowledge and then making fun of them on social media. Those folks don't think about the fact that what they are doing is wrong. It's not even a consideration because they can't get caught. THIS is what our society has become.

I want my child to do the right thing because he wants to. Not because he fears getting caught. I want him to be kind and empathetic. I want him to consider others even if he doesn't know them. The best way I can do this is by treating him this way. It's not about letting him do whatever he wants. It's about teaching him to genuinely want to do the right thing. I try to always treat him with respect and not use manipulation. That's what everyone wants, why should he be any different?

What's really getting to me about this, is that the OP's child may really have something going on that needs attention. Her child has displayed a behavior that is not typical for a kid her age. If all that happens is the child gets punished with a time-out or whatever then something very important could be getting missed. This child needs to be heard. Maybe it's nothing and maybe it's a cry for help. It's not about being "right" or having "control". It's about the welfare of the child.

End rant.


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## Mark Lakewood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Just because a parent chooses not to punish does not mean they do not believe in discipline. Getting to the root of the issue by gently helping your child understand the situation IS discipline. In fact, it teaches REAL discipline, meaning it makes them want to do better, not just avoid punishment.
> 
> There are many, many people in our society who do unsavory things and don't think a thing of it because they know they won't get caught. Look at the phenomenon of freely ridiculing people on the Internet, such as taking photos of them without their knowledge and then making fun of them on social media. Those folks don't think about the fact that what they are doing is wrong. It's not even a consideration because they can't get caught. THIS is what our society has become.
> 
> I want my child to do the right thing because he wants to. Not because he fears getting caught. I want him to be kind and empathetic. I want him to consider others even if he doesn't know them. The best way I can do this is by treating him this way. It's not about letting him do whatever he wants. It's about teaching him to genuinely want to do the right thing. I try to always treat him with respect and not use manipulation. That's what everyone wants, why should he be any different?
> 
> What's really getting to me about this, is that the OP's child may really have something going on that needs attention. Her child has displayed a behavior that is not typical for a kid her age. If all that happens is the child gets punished with a time-out or whatever then something very important could be getting missed. This child needs to be heard. Maybe it's nothing and maybe it's a cry for help. It's not about being "right" or having "control". It's about the welfare of the child.
> 
> End rant.


I truly agree with you regarding your last paragraph. However, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the concept of discipline. I just quickly did a google search on the definition of discipline and this is what I found:

dis·ci·pline 
/ˈdisəplin/
Noun
The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Verb
Train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Synonyms
noun. order - punishment
verb. punish - school - castigate - train - correct - chastise

Just talking and discussing misbehavior with your child is not considered discipline according to the definition above. The problem is that no matter how it might not be fair, it is important for us to view our child's behavior according to what is acceptable in our society. The majority of child related organizations and agencies similar to our schools rely on conventional forms of discipline like timeouts, groundings, loss of privileges, etc. as forms of discipline. It is because of this fact that it is important for parents to acclimate their child to these disciplines before they begin attending school, at least that is my opinion.

Whenever someone is charged and convicted of a crime and appears before a judge for sentencing, rarely would the judge ever process the crime with the defendant. Instead, the judge will impose a sentence very similar to a grounding. I think it is very important for kids to understand the punishments and consequences that society can impose on them for inappropriate behavior and not expect anything less than that.


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## dalia

Mark L - What a different world we would live in if judges did work on processing the crime with the defendant. There would probably be a lot less people in jail. In fact, our over-crowded prison system is a great example of how punishment doesn't work.

My child will not be attending a school with these types of mainstream punishments because I don't believe that they work
or that they are good for him. I'm lucky because we have that choice. Many people on this forum homeschool to avoid this type of punitive system.

There is more than one definition of discipline, but thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

OP, I'm sorry we've gotten so off track here. I hope you find a solution. I'm sorry this situation happened to you! I won't be arguing anymore but if I come up with some other ideas I will definitely share. <3


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## Mark Lakewood

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Mark L - What a different world we would live in if judges did work on processing the crime with the defendant. There would probably be a lot less people in jail. In fact, our over-crowded prison system is a great example of how punishment doesn't work.
> 
> My child will not be attending a school with these types of mainstream punishments because I don't believe that they work
> or that they are good for him. I'm lucky because we have that choice. Many people on this forum homeschool to avoid this type of punitive system.
> 
> There is more than one definition of discipline, but thanks for the vocabulary lesson.
> 
> OP, I'm sorry we've gotten so off track here. I hope you find a solution. I'm sorry this situation happened to you! I won't be arguing anymore but if I come up with some other ideas I will definitely share. <3


This is your right and you are very welcome!!


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## farmwife

Yes, there has been a big change. She had a baby brother born a month ago.


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## farmwife

When I talked to her again about it, she told me when she did it she had a feeling that she couldn't describe. I think she just couldn't put words to how it made her feel. I'm sure it was embarassed/confused/sad...like another person said, she may have thought she was being funny and realized instantly it wasn't.


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## Holleys8

I am curious if it was a purpose. If the child was underneath her, is it possible that she had an accident and the lower child got the results of that??

The reason I ask is because my kids have been in similar situations and they followed the lead of what the parent was saying and not what actually

happened. It wasnt until later that I found out that it was an accident all along. To some children there can be confusion to consequences....sometimes

accidents have the same consequences as purposeful actions. A young childs mind does not always distinguish between the two.


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## One_Girl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> Again my opinion, but I think it is very important for us to know the child's reasoning for their misbehavior after the very first incident. The goal here is to prevent it from happening again.


I haven't found this to be true. It is very common for children around this age to try out a behavior that is shocking and out of character. Looking for causes after one isolated incident is an over reaction, especially when done with the harsh methods you suggest. It is also a time waster and takes focus off the actual problem behavior and puts it on the child not telling you the reason they did something which is not what I would focus on the first time something happens. The first time a child tries out a negative behavior nothing should take away from the message that that behavior was wrong.

I think there is a place for those methods when extinguishing the behavior is a goal (and it would be for me if it happened again) but that isn't after the first time something happens and it isn't to get the child to talk. Saying why you did something and peeing on someone are very different on the scale of offenses and the consequences should be very different. If harsh consequences are all around there is really not much incentive to stop.very negative behavior. I would be seriously worried about my parenting skills and my relationship with my DD if that was the only way I could get her to tell me why she did something.


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## dalia

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Holleys8*
> 
> I am curious if it was a purpose. If the child was underneath her, is it possible that she had an accident and the lower child got the results of that??
> 
> The reason I ask is because my kids have been in similar situations and they followed the lead of what the parent was saying and not what actually
> happened. It wasnt until later that I found out that it was an accident all along. To some children there can be confusion to consequences....sometimes
> accidents have the same consequences as purposeful actions. A young childs mind does not always distinguish between the two.


I thought about this as well. Could it have been an accident?


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## sassyfirechick

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> I truly agree with you regarding your last paragraph. However, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the concept of discipline. I just quickly did a google search on the definition of discipline and this is what I found:
> 
> dis·ci·pline
> /ˈdisəplin/
> Noun
> The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
> Verb
> Train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
> Synonyms
> noun. order - punishment
> verb. punish - school - castigate - train - correct - chastise
> 
> Just talking and discussing misbehavior with your child is not considered discipline according to the definition above. The problem is that no matter how it might not be fair, it is important for us to view our child's behavior according to what is acceptable in our society. The majority of child related organizations and agencies similar to our schools rely on conventional forms of discipline like timeouts, groundings, loss of privileges, etc. as forms of discipline. It is because of this fact that it is important for parents to acclimate their child to these disciplines before they begin attending school, at least that is my opinion.
> 
> Whenever someone is charged and convicted of a crime and appears before a judge for sentencing, rarely would the judge ever process the crime with the defendant. Instead, the judge will impose a sentence very similar to a grounding. I think it is very important for kids to understand the punishments and consequences that society can impose on them for inappropriate behavior and not expect anything less than that.


Agree with dalia, what a different world it would be if the prison system actually worked! Again a system put in place long ago, many advances have been made in our understanding of punishment how it just doesn't work, but we still continue to use the same old system.

*"Is Punishment Effective?*

*Punishment also has some notable drawbacks. First, any behavior changes that result from punishment are often temporary. "Punished behavior is likely to reappear after the punitive consequences are withdrawn,"* *Perhaps the greatest drawback is the fact that punishment does not actually offer any information about more appropriate or desired behaviors. While subjects might be learning to not perform certain actions, they are not really learning anything about what they should be doing.*

*Another thing to consider about punishment is that it can have unintended and undesirable consequences*. " http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/punishment.htm

I think that says enough right there. What we refer to as gentle discipline on here is a term that does not involve punitive methods that you continue to describe and your posts may be better suited elsewhere.

OP having a new baby in the house is a huge event! (Congrats!!) I was 2.5 when my sister was born, and the day she came home I was told that I walked over to her bassinette and pushed it over. Now she wasn't in it and my parents did believe in punishment so I was spanked and let me tell you it taught me nothing. It didn't stop me from fighting with my sister in the future or doing other behaviors that seemed out of character for me. I'm not sure at that age I would have had enough grasp of my emotions or the words to describe them or that any lengthy discussion would have gotten anywhere, but I'm sure if my parents had sat with me and used it as a learning opportunity to discuss the feelings I *could* have been experiencing I'd be far less reserved with my feelings today. She said she couldn't describe the feeling, now you can sit with her and work out what it may have been and give her a word to put to that feeling so that if it comes up again she can tell you rather than act on it.


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## dalia

I do think the new baby could be the reason for such a behavior. From everything I've heard it's pretty normal for a child to regress a little bit when a new sibling arrives. I'm sure I'll be dealing with it soon as we are expecting a newbie in October!

This is TMI, but I thought I would share. When I was about 9 or 10, I started peeing a little bit in the bed and sometimes on the floor... I have NO IDEA why. If someone would have found out, I would not have had an answer. I still don't!! Thank goodness no one found out because I probably would have been shamed for it. Anyway, I was reminded of this when the OP said her child had a "strange feeling" when she did it. Kind of like a compulsion and since kids don't have much impulse control in the first place it's normal for them to sometimes act on their compulsions. It's tough to be a kid!!

Good luck, OP. Keep us updated!


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## HappyHappyMommy

OP, congratulations on your new baby. With regards to your older child, I agree with the PPs who said that this might have been accident or might be in response to the stress she's feeling from changes in her life. I also agree with the PPs who said that she might not know why she has done it. My recommendation would to help her focus on what she can do if she feels that way again (e.g. "what would you do differently if you had the idea to pee on the sandbox again?"). You can start with practical things (e.g. reminding her that when she needs to go to the bathroom to inside and do so, to let a grown-up know she needs to go to the bathroom, etc.) and then focus on other things (e.g. when you're curious about what would have if you did XXXX, what can you do? if you're upset with a friend, what can you do?).

I'd also like to remind everyone of the guidelines for this forum which state:

Quote:


> This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> *Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.*
> 
> Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.
> 
> 'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
> 
> ...
> 
> We can allow discussion about setting limits/boundaries as a part of Gentle Discipline. Interpreting punishment can be tricky sometimes because what some might see as punishment others might see as a natural consequence or a learning tool. Overall Mothering regards Gentle Discipline as a collection of lots of different approaches with a common thread that is the absence of violence. We do not embrace a particular parenting philosophy so our community may share and suggest different thinking and ideas that are based in a particular philosophy but there should be no defining of Gentle Discipline as such.


MarkLakewood, please edit your posts within this thread to comply with the forum guidelines. If you have any questions, please PM me.

I'd also like to remind everyone of Mothering's copyright policy:

Quote:


> *You may post:*
> 
> 
> A link directing readers to a discussion or article instead of the actual content itself.
> 100 words or less from an article as long as those 100 words are not a substantial part of the piece. If you are quoting from a short work such as a poem or a short article, 100 words may not be an acceptable fair use allowance. You should restrict yourself to a minimal quote from the piece. Anything more requires permission to print/reproduce in written form by the copyright holder and placed within your post.


sassyfirechick, please edit the quote in your post to be less than 100 words.

If anyone has any concerns about what's been posted in this thread, please flag the post or send me a PM; please do not post to the thread to discuss concerns about another member's posts.

And, last but most importantly, thanks to all who have posted to help the OP explore gentle ways to support her daughter. OP, I wish all the best as you navigate this situation.


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## Mark Lakewood

I would like to apologize to everyone in this forum for the advice that I gave. Though I still believe in using consequences to hold kids accountable for their behavior, I did not realize that this forum believes heavily in the attached parenting model. I did not read that when I visited http://www.mothering.com/community/a/about-us. Obviously, I do not subscribe to this model but I have full respect for those that do. Again, I apologize for my recommendations which were inconsistent with this model. I have just emailed the site administrator to close my account. Good luck to you all!


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## starling&diesel

Thanks for your post, HappyHappyMommy!

OP: I wonder if your daughter was simply curious? I would've been that kid ... I wouldn't have done it a second time, but I most certainly did all sorts of questionable things in the name of simply curiosity. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, were it my kid, other than to express my dismay and to let her know that it's not okay to pee on people. I wonder if she had a thought about it, was gripped by that thought, and then her body went along with it ... Especially if she already had a strong urge to pee.


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## nextcommercial

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Lakewood*
> 
> Wow! When did feeling bad or sad become a crime? How can we ever determine if a child feels bad because of their behavior or the discipline imposed? Maybe we shouldn't hold kids responsible for their behaviors if the discipline might make them feel bad. How did we as a society get to the point of making 'discipline' a bad word?


I'm confused by the whole thread drift here....but, first. I am also one who thinks kids need to feel bad, sad, disappointed etc. Because protecting kids from bad feelings and consequences, then throwing them out to the world is a very cruel thing. Sheltering your child from all pain for 18 years, then sending them to a college dorm is asking for trouble. I'd rather they learn the lesson of pain and consequences when the lesson is more affordable, rather than out on their own for the first time.

But, back to the original post (which I assume is completely resolved by now.....and i'll be honest was slightly funny to me...sorry)

I remember vividly at age 7 pulling the hair of a much younger child. I pulled it hard. I STILL have NO idea why I did that. It was the most awful impulse, and I can not even begin to explain why. So, if someone had asked me why... the answer was and still is "I don't know". Sometimes you just have that impulse to do something bad, and you can't ever explain why.

Why does your older brother shoot you with rubber bands?

Why do adults feel the urge to kick their spouse in the butt when he or she is bent over in an awkward position?

Why do we ALWAYS touch the paint when the sign says "Wet paint"?

Kids are just weird and sometimes gross. She's not going to go around peeing on people anymore. That grandma now thinks the six year old is weird, and the six year old is probably not going to be the first kid on the four year old's birthday invite list. But, that's part of life. We make bad choices, learn from them, and move on.


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## Viola

I went to a water park a couple weeks ago, and while I was walking up to one of the rides, a middle school-aged boy was leaning over from the ride tower to spit on me. I jumped out of the way. He spit actual phlegm.







I am one of those people that finds spitting in public completely disgusting and unacceptable, but I realize not everyone feels the same way, but still, I was kind of shocked.

Later I saw there were signs up that attendees found spitting from the rides would be removed from the park, so clearly this is an ongoing problem. I think sometimes there is this whole temptation and impulse control thing going on. I did things like that when I was younger. I think my sister peed on my leg at one point, I don't remember quite clearly. There is a feeling in some circles that it's kind of funny.

Anyway, I do think that you have to react in a way that strongly discourages this behavior unless you do believe there is some other reason this is going on. But I think most of the time it's kind of the whole cause and effect, let's see what happens, wouldn't it be funny type of situation.


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## fishy67

Maybe I'm crazy, but is it possible she didn't pee on the child on purpose? I'm assuming "farmwife" lives in a country setting. Our grandson, just 5, who we watch 3 days a week and have here often otherwise, pees outside rather than making a trip to the house. We're in a really rural setting & he knows he can't do this at preschool or home, in town. I'm not saying you'd encourage a child to pee off the clubhouse, but is it possible she does sometimes & just didn't take the younger child into account? And is "victim" kind of overreacting here?


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## dalia

Fishy, I was wondering the same thing!


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## farmwife

Yes, the kids do pee outside. Especially when their swimsuits are wet and its a lot easier than getting dry and going in the house. I really appreciate all the replies!!!


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