# WWYD-Detention



## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

My twelve year old brought home a detention slip today. The reason listed on the slip is non-dress for P.E. three times. The dates listed were Dec. 10, Jan. 5 and today May 5th. Well on Jan 5th that was their first day back to school from Winter Break and I didn't have his gym clothes washed. Today his gym clothes were stolen from his locker. I don't feel he should have to serve detention because of this. I left a message with the Vice Principal but of course no one has called me back yet.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Wow, That seems harsh. My dd just doesn't get participation points for PE class if she doesn't have gym clothes.


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

while i would definitely talk to the officials at school about the fact that the uniform was stolen, i'm of the thought that kids have to learn that life isn't always fair and that even though there are reasons/excuses for this that my child would serve their detention if that is the "rule" at school. i think 12 years old (my dd will be 12 this month) is old enough to have that kind of responsibility with no problem.

i may be in the minority here, but i don't think we teach our kids anything at all when we swoop in and "fix" everything.....or maybe i'm just really strict.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

12/10- his fault
1/5- still his fault
Today, not his fault.

I'd say the next time, yes detention should be served if that is the rule.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Well i kind of do have to step in and try to fix the problem. I have about $30 to my name until the 15th of May. If he doesn't have the gym uniform bought by tomorrow he gets detention everyday and merit points deducted everyday which can cause him to flunk the 6th grade. You have a 100 merit points and once you get below 70 you don't pass the school year. Right now he is at 90 points and without being able to buy gym clothes until the 15th its going to put him under 70 points.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

If there is an economic issue that seems a reason to bring it to the attention of someone at school. Not washing clothes is a different matter. Having your clothing/belongings stolen seems on an entirely different plane, IMO.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Did he report that something had been stolen from his locker? Has he spoken to the appropriate person about the problem?

If he can do the talking himself, that would be better, but you will have to find a solution to the clothes issue, I agree.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Hmmm...I'm not a big fan of detention for any reason but I understand this one. I've had to teach PE, and in so doing I learned that the biggest issue with kids in gym is wearing the gym clothes. The kids I taught would do just about anything to get out of having to actually change their clothes...from flat out refusing, to wearing their skanky gym clothes under their regular clothes. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

My point being that there has to be standard enforcible concequences for noncomplience, because it takes way too much focus off of the class content otherwise. For the same reason negotiating with students every class over their noncomplience is usually a no-go...because I'll bet that there will be someone every single class who gets a detention for this. Kids in my class were that resistant. Kids in my class failed simply because half of their grade was dressing out, and they refused.

Now, that being said, it sucks that your kid got in trouble for having their clothes stolen. Unfortunately its a cumulative punishment...and the first two instances of no-clothes are legit (regardless of if the fault in the first case was yours, that is not the teacher's concern). So I would say that the best you could hope for would be to get the final non-complience removed from the trackrecord. But I think contacting the teacher directly would get you quicker and more logical action.

Honestly the VP should be concerned with the fact that kids are stealing from one another like this...but other wise I don't see the detention as that big a deal.


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
Well i kind of do have to step in and try to fix the problem. I have about $30 to my name until the 15th of May. If he doesn't have the gym uniform bought by tomorrow he gets detention everyday and merit points deducted everyday which can cause him to flunk the 6th grade. You have a 100 merit points and once you get below 70 you don't pass the school year. Right now he is at 90 points and without being able to buy gym clothes until the 15th its going to put him under 70 points.


hmm....well then definitely get in touch with the principal/vice principal on this matter as this is in direct effect of the uniform being stolen. and i must say that i've never heard of such a "demerit" system before? my dd is also in the 6th grade and while they don't really do detention (small private christian school), they do have some "punishments" for forgotten gym uniforms......which we managed to get around by purchasing 2 at the beginning of the school year so we'd have no issues. but being that this is an economic issue, i would certainly think that that would play into ceasing the whole flunking the school year thing.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

This school is HUGE on this weird merit system thing. I for one have never heard of such a thing. He said that he did talk to the P.E. teacher and her response oh well buy new ones. He isn't a kid that really minds dressing out. I mean come on its May and this is only his third non dress. He won't be going to the detention I've already decided that. He has had detetion before due to missing assignments which were totally his fault. However, this one he will not be serving detention for.

I did leave messages with the VP and the PE teacher.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
12/10- his fault
1/5- still his fault
Today, not his fault.

I'd say the next time, yes detention should be served if that is the rule.

Yep.. I agree.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

I have about $30 to my name until the 15th of May.
Is it a specific uniform he needs or just a t-shirt & shorts? The 15th is not that far away, is there anything you would need that $30 for right now? Can you borrow money for the clothes?

What happens if he skips the detention? Will that automatically get him closer to the 100 points?

I don't see them letting this go otherwise every other kid who doesn't want to participate in gym will start saying their clothes were stolen or it wasn't their fault either.

At his age the schools expect responsibility on his part.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

how did his gym clothes get stolen? moine got stolen in middle school because I didn't want to bother with a lock. my fault. . . .

definitely talk to them. especially if you can't afford new gym clothes. I owuldn't make a big deal out of this detention. really detention is not that big of a deal. but I would definitely talk to them if you can't replace the gym clothes.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
Is it a specific uniform he needs or just a t-shirt & shorts? The 15th is not that far away, is there anything you would need that $30 for right now? Can you borrow money for the clothes?

What happens if he skips the detention? Will that automatically get him closer to the 100 points?

I don't see them letting this go otherwise every other kid who doesn't want to participate in gym will start saying their clothes were stolen or it wasn't their fault either.

At his age the schools expect responsibility on his part.

Yeah I'm going to need that $30 in the next 10 days. Hubby has to get to work, might need some milk or bread. His clothes were stolen and he reported it right away. He does have a lock on his gym locker but each locker gets shared between 3 kids.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
12/10- his fault
1/5- still his fault
Today, not his fault.

I'd say the next time, yes detention should be served if that is the rule.

This middle school teacher agrees.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

A quick idea-

Can your son borrow gym clothes from a friend who has gym on a different day? You could wash them that night so that the friend gets them back in time for their own class.

Also, it's kind of gross (though not much grosser than any other typical kid stuff), but can your son borrow from a kid who has class during an earlier class period or a later one? Sure the clothes would be skanky, but that's not much in comparison to failing the grade.

I kind of agree that he should serve the detention though. The first time (I assume) was his own fault. The next time it was "your fault" but really, he knew that he needed them the next day. He could have checked beforehand and washed them himself. The clothes being stolen is NOT his fault, but if the first two things hadn't happened, he'd be safe.

Re: the demerit system. You say your son already has 70 points. It's none of my business, but I'm guessing they aren't all from missing gym clothes. So if he fails, it isn't really about this one incident.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

I said if they take away five points a day till the 15th that will put him under 70 points. Right now he has 90 points. Once you hit 70 points or less you flunking the school year.


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
I said if they take away five points a day till the 15th that will put him under 70 points. Right now he has 90 points. Once you hit 70 points or less you flunking the school year.









My mistake. I misunderstood the system.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

If worse comes to worse, can't you just write a note excusing your son from gym class until the 15th? One of my friends is always doing that for his daughter because she hates gym, lol.

I think the reason most kids hate getting changed for gym class is because in a lot of schools the locker rooms aren't private enough and kids that age are really self-conscious.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
This school is HUGE on this weird merit system thing. I for one have never heard of such a thing. He said that he did talk to the P.E. teacher and her response oh well buy new ones. He isn't a kid that really minds dressing out. I mean come on its May and this is only his third non dress. He won't be going to the detention I've already decided that. He has had detetion before due to missing assignments which were totally his fault. However, this one he will not be serving detention for.

I did leave messages with the VP and the PE teacher.

I think you are handling this well and my child wouldn't be doing detention in this case either.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
If worse comes to worse, can't you just write a note excusing your son from gym class until the 15th? One of my friends is always doing that for his daughter because she hates gym, lol.

Our MS policy is that a student gets 2 parent excuses per semester (so 4 per year). After that? You either have a doctor's note or you participate.

Would the same parent write a note excusing his darling from Math if she hated Math?

As for the third "infraction" and receiving detention... I don't know how it is at this particular school, but our schools have a lost & found in each of the locker rooms - and they're usually full of clothes this time of year. If this was available, the boy could have had a quick dive in there and grabbed a pair of shorts and a shirt to dress.

Given that there is an issue with replacing the clothes for a week and a half, I would likely tread somewhat softly about the detention. See if the school will work with you regarding the gym clothes replacement, and advise your son to take his lumps even thought it seems unfair. That, too, can be a valuable lesson to learn - life isn't always fair.


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## tootaloo78 (Nov 21, 2007)

I would not allow my child to serve detention. Of course, I have major issues with any one other than myself or DH disciplining my kids in anyway, so I am probably not the best person to give advice here. In all of my years of attending school I rarely saw a punishment doled out that was actually fair, IMO. This is one of the reasons that we plan to homeschool.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
while i would definitely talk to the officials at school about the fact that the uniform was stolen, i'm of the thought that kids have to learn that life isn't always fair and that even though there are reasons/excuses for this that my child would serve their detention if that is the "rule" at school. i think 12 years old (my dd will be 12 this month) is old enough to have that kind of responsibility with no problem.

i may be in the minority here, but i don't think we teach our kids anything at all when we swoop in and "fix" everything.....or maybe i'm just really strict.









100% agree. Coming in and fighting this for him is a disservice to him, IMO. He's 12. Old enough to take responsibility for his own actions. I don't think you're doing him many favors socially either by fighting his corner for him. JMHO.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

I'm another vote for having him borrow clothes from a friend - my daughter and her friends do this all the time, and it's no big deal.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

I think I'd have to let my son serve the detention. The clothing being stolen *is* partially his fault for not securing his locker. The other two issues of not dressing out is also his problem. Without the other two non-dresses, he wouldn't be to this point of demerits and in danger of failing.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I cannot believe some of these responses.

"Kids have to learn that life isn't fair and you won't swoop in to save them all the time."

That kind of attitude is why there's a thread in TAO right now about a landlord who didn't fix a roof and the poster is wondering if she's overreacting about having water pouring on her bed. That kind of attitude is why you get kids bringing guns to school to face bullies. Yeah life isn't fair, that's why we have people to ask for help when things are out of our control.

"if he hadn't missed those other two times he wouldn't have a problem now so he should have to serve detention"

WTF? He forgot ONE time one semester and then his mom didn't wash his clothes. Sure, he's old enough to wash his own clothes, but unless he's been doing that all along it's idiotic to blame him for not magically knowing to do it himself this time. And clearly the clothes weren't left at school because if they were there, even stinky, he would've been dressed for gym. He remembered to bring them home for washing.

Tell the gym teacher and VP that since it was their policy of sharing lockers that made your son have his gym uniform stolen he'll be wearing ordinary shorts and a t-shirt and they can suck it up. (only use polite language.)


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
I think I'd have to let my son serve the detention. The clothing being stolen *is* partially his fault for not securing his locker. The other two issues of not dressing out is also his problem. Without the other two non-dresses, he wouldn't be to this point of demerits and in danger of failing.

She stated that the locker WAS locked but is shared among three people. This is not an issue of her child not securing his items or taking necessary precautions to protect his belongings.

I don't know, I think this whole merit system sounds pretty ridiculous to be honest but then, the school didn't ask me! I also think it's unacceptable to punish a child for being a victim of theft. The economic hardship makes it even more so - if she doesn't step in and fight on this one, then her child gets held back in school for a year. How is that right and what long term ramifications will this have when he tries to get into college, etc?

Yes I agree that life is not fair. But on the other hand, don't we try to act fairly ourselves? Do we not try to correct injustices in our daily lives? And is it not a good example to show that while the unfairness in life does exist, it's worth fighting for the "right" thing?

I would talk to the principal directly about it, and explain the siutation with the theft. The economic problem is a separate (though valid) issue. Ideally, I would get the 3rd instance and subsequent detention removed and obain permission for my son to wear knit shorts and a t-shirt until the 15th. Good luck!


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







I cannot believe some of these responses.

"Kids have to learn that life isn't fair and you won't swoop in to save them all the time."

That kind of attitude is why there's a thread in TAO right now about a landlord who didn't fix a roof and the poster is wondering if she's overreacting about having water pouring on her bed. That kind of attitude is why you get kids bringing guns to school to face bullies. Yeah life isn't fair, that's why we have people to ask for help when things are out of our control.

"if he hadn't missed those other two times he wouldn't have a problem now so he should have to serve detention"

WTF? He forgot ONE time one semester and then his mom didn't wash his clothes. Sure, he's old enough to wash his own clothes, but unless he's been doing that all along it's idiotic to blame him for not magically knowing to do it himself this time. And clearly the clothes weren't left at school because if they were there, even stinky, he would've been dressed for gym. He remembered to bring them home for washing.

Tell the gym teacher and VP that since it was their policy of sharing lockers that made your son have his gym uniform stolen he'll be wearing ordinary shorts and a t-shirt and they can suck it up. (only use polite language.)

um, excuse me, but since you quoted something i wrote (and not at all in the context in which i meant it) i feel compelled to respond. what i meant was that parents constant "fixing" of things for their children doesn't allow said children to learn the natural consequences of their choices/actions. as adults we understand that if we speed and get a ticket we must suffer the consequences of our choices/actions and pay for that. we don't expect that someone else is going to "swoop in and fix" the "unfairness".....you know, because other people were speeding too. it's our job as parents to prepare our children to live life as productive citizens of our world.

not allowing kids to grow up is why we have an entire generation of lazy, disrespectful young adults that still live at home when they should be self sufficient and expecting mommy and daddy to make sure they are taken care of instead of learning to take care of themselves.

and i'm sorry, but i'm confused as to how teaching children that life isn't always fair has anything at all to do with bringing guns to school or dealing with a crappy landlord?? you're not exactly comparing apples to apples here.

what i did NOT mean was that an uncaring stance was expected to be given in the instance stated by the OP. this isn't a "suck it up kid" situation at all. there is much love in teaching the hard lessons of life.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
She stated that the locker WAS locked but is shared among three people. This is not an issue of her child not securing his items or taking necessary precautions to protect his belongings.

I don't know, I think this whole merit system sounds pretty ridiculous to be honest but then, the school didn't ask me! I also think it's unacceptable to punish a child for being a victim of theft. The economic hardship makes it even more so - if she doesn't step in and fight on this one, then her child gets held back in school for a year. How is that right and what long term ramifications will this have when he tries to get into college, etc?

Yes I agree that life is not fair. But on the other hand, don't we try to act fairly ourselves? Do we not try to correct injustices in our daily lives? And is it not a good example to show that while the unfairness in life does exist, it's worth fighting for the "right" thing?

I would talk to the principal directly about it, and explain the siutation with the theft. The economic problem is a separate (though valid) issue. Ideally, I would get the 3rd instance and subsequent detention removed and obain permission for my son to wear knit shorts and a t-shirt until the 15th. Good luck!

My bad on missing the shared locker situation. Still, he is responsible for his other two non-dresses for PE. Had he not missed those he wouldn't be worried about the third. I'm assuming these rules were not instituted last week, that the parents were made aware of these when enrolling the child in school.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
:

"if he hadn't missed those other two times he wouldn't have a problem now so he should have to serve detention"

WTF? He forgot ONE time one semester and then his mom didn't wash his clothes. Sure, he's old enough to wash his own clothes, but unless he's been doing that all along it's idiotic to blame him for not magically knowing to do it himself this time. And clearly the clothes weren't left at school because if they were there, even stinky, he would've been dressed for gym. He remembered to bring them home for washing.


I teach middle school and all day long I hear excuses why they don't have this or that. A PE teacher at my school sees 250 kids a day. They don't like to dress out. They have excuses ALL THE TIME. I teach English so all day long I hear, "I don't have paper because. . ." "I don't have a pencil because. . . " "I don't have my book because. . . " finish those sentences with a hundred reasons why it isn't their fault. I'd say only once a day do I hear a kid say it is just their fault. They just messed up-- and I want to hug that kid!!! I have a middle schooler at home myself and I'd say it isn't exactly the age of taking responsibilty. I'm saying that with the exception of the theft situation, you need to just have your things and when you don't there are consequences. We can't really do English class when your paper, pencil, journal, book and eraser are in your friend's backpack in another class. I don't really want to spend 10 minutes of a 45 minute class handing out new materials and taking inventory on what you have and what you don't. As far as gym clothes being in laundry-- that's my kid. He remembers on Sunday night that he needs to wash them and they are still wet Monday morning. There are consequences. Not a big deal. If it was mom's fault, he could be mad at me, but he still gets the consequence. Sometimes there are consequences from mistakes, not just when we intentionally do things wrong. Like if my husband forgets to return a movie, I still have to pay the fee, even though it wasn't "my fault." The theft is another situation, though. It does make me wonder if there has been an outbreak of "Whoops! My uniform was stolen, too, guess I don't have to dress out!" Not that the child is lying, it just might be bad luck that others have been abusing the excuse. I'd talk to the prinicipal. What does the school do for kids who really can't afford the uniforms? We have payment plans and donated uniforms.

Oh, and would a child really "flunk" 6th grade from having an F in PE??? Here, lots of children flunk PE, but it doesn't stop them from going to 7th grade.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
um, excuse me, but since you quoted something i wrote (and not at all in the context in which i meant it) i feel compelled to respond. what i meant was that parents constant "fixing" of things for their children doesn't allow said children to learn the natural consequences of their choices/actions. as adults we understand that if we speed and get a ticket we must suffer the consequences of our choices/actions and pay for that. we don't expect that someone else is going to "swoop in and fix" the "unfairness".....you know, because other people were speeding too. it's our job as parents to prepare our children to live life as productive citizens of our world.

not allowing kids to grow up is why we have an entire generation of lazy, disrespectful young adults that still live at home when they should be self sufficient and expecting mommy and daddy to make sure they are taken care of instead of learning to take care of themselves.

and i'm sorry, but i'm confused as to how teaching children that life isn't always fair has anything at all to do with bringing guns to school or dealing with a crappy landlord?? you're not exactly comparing apples to apples here.

what i did NOT mean was that an uncaring stance was expected to be given in the instance stated by the OP. this isn't a "suck it up kid" situation at all. there is much love in teaching the hard lessons of life.

In school, your parent is your lawyer, or advocate. In the "real" world, you would hire a lawyer for an injustice, not just suck it up. How would you like it if you hired a lawyer to correct an injustice and were told to just suck it up because life isn't always fair and you shouldn't expect someone else to swoop in and fix it for you?

School rules are often very arbitrary. It sounds like this merit system is really doing a disservice to students. You can fail a year for having your gym clothes stolen and not having enough money to get new ones? What if you make straight A's....tough $hit?

I wouldn't even subject my child to a school like that and if I had no choice, I'd be all over the school board to fix it.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
In school, your parent is your lawyer, or advocate. In the "real" world, you would hire a lawyer for an injustice, not just suck it up. How would you like it if you hired a lawyer to correct an injustice and were told to just suck it up because life isn't always fair and you shouldn't expect someone else to swoop in and fix it for you?

School rules are often very arbitrary. It sounds like this merit system is really doing a disservice to students. You can fail a year for having your gym clothes stolen and not having enough money to get new ones? What if you make straight A's....tough $hit?

I wouldn't even subject my child to a school like that and if I had no choice, I'd be all over the school board to fix it.

Where is the injustice? She enrolled her kid in a school, with rules. I will again say the rules were probably spelled out upon enrollment or at the very least, in a handbook for her and her child to look at. If she didn't like the rules, she should have had her child educated somewhere else.
This is not the first time he missed gym because he didn't have his clothes. It is the third. Had he taken the responsibility to get his clothes to gym the two other times he's been docked for non-participation, he would not be faced with this problem.


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
In school, your parent is your lawyer, or advocate. In the "real" world, you would hire a lawyer for an injustice, not just suck it up. How would you like it if you hired a lawyer to correct an injustice and were told to just suck it up because life isn't always fair and you shouldn't expect someone else to swoop in and fix it for you?

School rules are often very arbitrary. It sounds like this merit system is really doing a disservice to students. You can fail a year for having your gym clothes stolen and not having enough money to get new ones? What if you make straight A's....tough $hit?

I wouldn't even subject my child to a school like that and if I had no choice, I'd be all over the school board to fix it.

wow, i never said that anyone should suck it up...maybe you should re-read what i actually wrote. but using your example, i would NEVER, as an intelligent adult, hire a lawyer to get me out of a speeding ticket that i got caught with because i thought it "unfair" because "everyone" speeds. to me the idea of detention being some sort of "injustice" is laughable. kids get detention for many various reasons. dramatic much?









i also agree with everything you said about the merit system at this school.....and again, if you'd read all my posts you would know that. i already said that i would *absolutely* be contacting the school on the stolen uniform thing. THAT is the only part of this that seems to not warrant a detention as this was honestly not the student's fault.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
wow, i never said that anyone should suck it up...maybe you should re-read what i actually wrote. but using your example, i would NEVER, as an intelligent adult, hire a lawyer to get me out of a speeding ticket that i got caught with because i thought it "unfair" because "everyone" speeds. to me the idea of detention being some sort of "injustice" is laughable. kids get detention for many various reasons. dramatic much?









i also agree with everything you said about the merit system at this school.....and again, if you'd read all my posts you would know that. i already said that i would *absolutely* be contacting the school on the stolen uniform thing. THAT is the only part of this that seems to not warrant a detention as this was honestly not the student's fault.

I didn't quote you to insult you. I pointed out another side of your thought. But, "suffer the consequences" does mean "suck it up." It bothers me when we don't think that our schoolchildren deserve the same respect and fairness as adults. I understand that it's hard to have to deal with so many children in schools. But, just because it's hard doesn't mean that they shouldn't have rights and for injustices to be corrected. But I guess the difference is if you think that this counts as an injustice. Some people don't. I do.

Also, (not addressed to you, VM) it's naive to think that if you don't like something that you can just "go somewhere else." If the OP has 30 dollars in the bank, it's not like she can just put her child into a private school and not everyone can homeschool. If nobody protests or complains about rules that don't work, then the school will not change the rules. Even if something is laid out in a handbook, you can work to change it. Not abiding by it is one way to encourage it to change.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 

Also, (not addressed to you, VM) it's naive to think that if you don't like something that you can just "go somewhere else." If the OP has 30 dollars in the bank, it's not like she can just put her child into a private school and not everyone can homeschool. If nobody protests or complains about rules that don't work, then the school will not change the rules. Even if something is laid out in a handbook, you can work to change it. Not abiding by it is one way to encourage it to change.

Ah, but if people only protest when it is *their* child that they deem is being treated with unfairness, the schools don't really hear it (trust me!). They just figure a helicopter parent is swooping down for a midnight raid.

Real change needs to be pursued more systematically...but for sure it should be pursued!


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

I failed 7th grade PE









'cause I wouldn't change my clothes..

it absolutely wasn't bacause of forgetfulness or just being lazy- it was because I ALREADY had body issues and I couldn't stand the thought of changing in such an open space.

I ended up switching schools because this was such a huge issue for me..

( I couldn't suck it up, I guess







)

ETA: and "yeah that" to the post below mine..37 (had to run, couldn't finish


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

I would probably try to help my kids tell what happened to whoever is in charge. Being assertive is something that needs to be learned and I think a really important skill.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
i may be in the minority here, but i don't think we teach our kids anything at all when we swoop in and "fix" everything.....or maybe i'm just really strict.










I agree with you and I am one of the least strict parents on this board. I would however not discourage him from brining his objections to the school. I also want my kids to understand that nothing can be changed if we do not try. They don't have to take everthing lying down just because "life isn't fair".


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## GAjenn (Jan 28, 2009)

1.Talk to the coach not the v.principal.
2.Sometimes the storey you get from your kid is one sided
3.If it is that important to go, set up a conference with the understanding that your child may serve detention after the conference if that is what is agreed on


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
That kind of attitude is why there's a thread in TAO right now about a landlord who didn't fix a roof and the poster is wondering if she's overreacting about having water pouring on her bed. That kind of attitude is why you get kids bringing guns to school to face bullies. Yeah life isn't fair, that's why we have people to ask for help when things are out of our control.


Actually, I think it's the other way around. If people don't learn how to work things out on their own, they often are too timid to stand up for themselves when they need to. I have seen a lot of helpless older kids (5th and 6th grade mostly) and to a one they all have parents who do swoop in to make sure everything is done and/or taking care of it for their kids. It's not that the kids are spoiled or have an entitlement complex (none of the ones I know do!), but they just don't know how to solve problems because they've never been given the chance. Once encouraged, they do just fine, if the parent gets out of the way.

However, that really doesn't seem to be the problem in the OP's case. Her son reported things right away. I don't know if the OP has reported the financial situation to the school (re: the threats about not replacing the uniform). I would assume (and perhaps that's too much) that the administration would help fix that problem quietly. It IS embarassing to talk about stuff like that, but it's better than allowing your kid to rack up all those points because you don't say anything at all. At least IMO.

If the OP can't talk to the administration because she's intimidated by them or because she wants to talk to someone she knows well/trusts, perhaps there is a trusted other teacher/former teacher/school nurse/office manager who can help?


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
I didn't quote you to insult you. I pointed out another side of your thought. But, "suffer the consequences" does mean "suck it up." It bothers me when we don't think that our schoolchildren deserve the same respect and fairness as adults. I understand that it's hard to have to deal with so many children in schools. But, just because it's hard doesn't mean that they shouldn't have rights and for injustices to be corrected. But I guess the difference is if you think that this counts as an injustice. Some people don't. I do.

you see, i don't think that learning to "suffer the consequences" of our actions/choices or having to "suck it up" because of those same actions/choices mean that there isn't fairness, respect or that they don't have rights?? how will they ever function as respectful, rational, fair adults if they are never taught that when they make certain choices that there are natural consequences to those choices....both good and bad?

if my child doesn't study for a test and gets an F then she will have to suck it up because of her choices. that is the consequence of her actions. for me to "swoop in" and call her teacher and demand that it isn't "fair" because there wasn't time to study/we had a late night/she forgot her book, is a total disservice to her. she must learn to have responsibility. on the other hand, if she studies her butt off and gets an A, the the natural consequence is that of being proud and feeling happy.

nowhere in there am i treating her without respect or fairness. as her mother it is MY JOB to make sure that she grows up knowing that every decision she makes will have a natural consequence....good or bad. and that it's up to her to learn to make good decisions. and that sometimes those decisions aren't easy to make.....hence that life isn't always fair.

and again, i completely agreed on the way this school works with the merit stuff.....i too would be raising a stink about that all around.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I teach middle school and all day long I hear excuses why they don't have this or that.

Oops, I didn't mean that he shouldn't be marked off for not having his uniform because of the washing thing, I meant that it was weird that anyone would be recommending to let him serve detention because he forgot his uniform twice when one of those times wasn't even his fault.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
I think I'd have to let my son serve the detention. The clothing being stolen *is* partially his fault for not securing his locker. The other two issues of not dressing out is also his problem. Without the other two non-dresses, he wouldn't be to this point of demerits and in danger of failing.

His fault for not securing his locker







he shares the locker with two other students.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Sure you can teach your kids to handle things themselves. However, there are a lot of teachers that don't want to hear because they think its just another excuse. My job as a parent is to teach my son to work things out on his own AND be there to help him work things out when he has tried and failed. He spoke with two gym teachers yesteday and both told him "oh well" which I totally believe because I have met these teachers and witnessed how they interact with the children.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

This is an interaction I just had (like 30 min ago! ) with a seventh grader:

Where is your book?

Well, I told my friend to bring it here and she said she did, but I don't see it.

Well, R you really need to have your things with you at all times.

But it's not my fault. She said she'd bring it here.

I'm sorry, I don't see it. YOU need to carry your books.

Well, it's not my fault.

Grr. Multiple this times 180 kids!

(Just to clarify, I don't think you should get demerits for stolen items, just to point out that kids tell me why they don't have their things a hundred times a day. I can't really spend all day figuring out where their things are. They need to be in their back pack. It is a DAILY issue for a lot of middle school kids.)


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
um, excuse me, but since you quoted something i wrote (and not at all in the context in which i meant it) i feel compelled to respond. what i meant was that parents constant "fixing" of things for their children doesn't allow said children to learn the natural consequences of their choices/actions. as adults we understand that if we speed and get a ticket we must suffer the consequences of our choices/actions and pay for that. we don't expect that someone else is going to "swoop in and fix" the "unfairness".....you know, because other people were speeding too.

You'll notice the kid didn't ask the gym teacher to give him an excuse him for the time he forgot to put on his uniform. He went to his gym teacher to say that his uniform had been stolen. That is, he went to the proper authority and asked for help--and got brushed off.

Too much dismissing of legitimate problems makes people not want to speak up. Gym teacher says just get a new uniform, mom says serve the detention, and the kid just learns that there's no point in asking for help and he should just take care of things himself.

Just like kids who are bullied and don't get help can end up taking care of things themselves, or the poster on MDC just kept patching and repatching her apartment instead of forcing the landlord to live up to his end of the rental contract.

You know, it's just as unfair that a lady pulled over her van and gave me an umbrella when I was walking home in the rain today. I didn't bring anything to keep dry even though I knew it would probably rain today. The "fair" thing would've been for me to get totally soaked. Especially since I'm an adult and was fine. Somehow no one seems to think kids need to learn that life isn't always fair when it comes to positive unfairness. When it's something the kid wants all of a sudden it's "we can't do that, it wouldn't be fair to everyone else."


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
You know, it's just as unfair that a lady pulled over her van and gave me an umbrella when I was walking home in the rain today. I didn't bring anything to keep dry even though I knew it would probably rain today. The "fair" thing would've been for me to get totally soaked. Especially since I'm an adult and was fine. Somehow no one seems to think kids need to learn that life isn't always fair when it comes to positive unfairness. When it's something the kid wants all of a sudden it's "we can't do that, it wouldn't be fair to everyone else."

beautifully said


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
You'll notice the kid didn't ask the gym teacher to give him an excuse him for the time he forgot to put on his uniform. He went to his gym teacher to say that his uniform had been stolen. That is, he went to the proper authority and asked for help--and got brushed off.

Too much dismissing of legitimate problems makes people not want to speak up. Gym teacher says just get a new uniform, mom says serve the detention, and the kid just learns that there's no point in asking for help and he should just take care of things himself.

Just like kids who are bullied and don't get help can end up taking care of things themselves, or the poster on MDC just kept patching and repatching her apartment instead of forcing the landlord to live up to his end of the rental contract.

You know, it's just as unfair that a lady pulled over her van and gave me an umbrella when I was walking home in the rain today. I didn't bring anything to keep dry even though I knew it would probably rain today. The "fair" thing would've been for me to get totally soaked. Especially since I'm an adult and was fine. Somehow no one seems to think kids need to learn that life isn't always fair when it comes to positive unfairness. When it's something the kid wants all of a sudden it's "we can't do that, it wouldn't be fair to everyone else."

since you quoted me i'll assume you were addressing me.....and i must say that you completely lost me and i'm not sure what my post has to do with your response??

if you'll read my post above you will see that i already stated that this is *both a good and a bad consequence thing that we need to teach our children.*


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
Sure you can teach your kids to handle things themselves. However, there are a lot of teachers that don't want to hear because they think its just another excuse. My job as a parent is to teach my son to work things out on his own AND be there to help him work things out when he has tried and failed. He spoke with two gym teachers yesteday and both told him "oh well" which I totally believe because I have met these teachers and witnessed how they interact with the children.










I hate this stuff, I think you are handling this well, and seem to have a good balanced view of the situation


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
Sure you can teach your kids to handle things themselves. However, there are a lot of teachers that don't want to hear because they think its just another excuse. My job as a parent is to teach my son to work things out on his own AND be there to help him work things out when he has tried and failed. He spoke with two gym teachers yesteday and both told him "oh well" which I totally believe because I have met these teachers and witnessed how they interact with the children.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 








I hate this stuff, I think you are handling this well, and seem to have a good balanced view of the situation


i couldn't agree more with cherie2! i know we're having a discussion on this but it's easy as parents to talk about all this objectively when it isn't our own child going through it. i can hear the frustration in your words and it sounds like your son's school is a very different atmosphere than we're used to dealing with which is adding to the difficulty of this situation.

i do hope that you get things worked out.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

The big problem here, IMO, is that the ultimate consequence of the theft is soooooooo freaking insane! Failing 6th grade because your gym uni got stolen and you parents can't buy a new one this month? For pete's sake!

OP, obviously you have to go to the VP and tell him about your situation. It's not just about a detention. I'm sorry you have to share personal details of your finances bc there was a theft at school.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
12/10- his fault
1/5- still his fault
Today, not his fault.

I'd say the next time, yes detention should be served if that is the rule.

I agree as well.

Deanna


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Oops, I didn't mean that he shouldn't be marked off for not having his uniform because of the washing thing, I meant that it was weird that anyone would be recommending to let him serve detention *because he forgot his uniform twice when one of those times wasn't even his fault.*

But it was. He KNEW he needed the uniform, and he COULD have taken it unwashed. He didn't. Two strikes.

Again, I would likely tread lightly on the detention and focus on how to get the kid through PE for the next week and a half w/o shelling out money for the uniform. I'd bet the school will help, but going in screaming about how the kid ISN'T serving detention, it ISN'T his fault, etc, etc isn't going to make the admins interested in helping.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
His fault for not securing his locker







he shares the locker with two other students.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
*My bad on missing the shared locker situation.*

I did say I'd missed that part about the shared locker situation so the eyeroll wasn't necessary but it still doesn't change the fact that he has two other situations he's responsible for that have led to this detention situation.


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
as adults we understand that if we speed and get a ticket we must suffer the consequences of our choices/actions and pay for that. we don't expect that someone else is going to "swoop in and fix" the "unfairness".....you know, because other people were speeding too. it's our job as parents to prepare our children to live life as productive citizens of our world.

That is not the same at all.. first of all, with children it is different- as adults, our mothers no longer advocate for us because, well, we are _adults_, and hopefully we have learned to do that for ourselves when we can, or to hire a professional lawyer if needed. But he is 12- it sounds like he did take the steps he could take, by talking to the teacher, and the teacher wasn't receptive. If he hadn't taken that step, I would be wary of a parent taking this on, but he did what he could. As a 12 year old student, unfortunately many adults in positions of authority may not listen to him or have the same regard they would for another adult- so it is imperative that as parents we do step in when our children need it, especially when they do what they can and then, if that fails, ask us to step in.

And the example of speeding- how is that relevant? If you do something wrong, you can suffer the consequences, regardless of whether or not others were also doing it. But in this case, he did nothing wrong; his clothes were stolen. And yes, there were two other times prior to that, but really, that happens. Twice in a school year is not at all unreasonable.

And say, to use the speeding example, that using a point system as in my state, three speeding tickets will result in license revocation. Say the first two, while there may have been reasons that you were speeding, were indeed legitimate tickets because you were indeed speeding. Now say you get a third ticket in your name- but someone else stole your car and gave your name when pulled over. Would it really be fair to lose your license and pay the fine because someone else broke the law? Regardless of the prior two offenses, the point is that you shouldn't be punished for something you didn't do- and that extreme consequences may have negative effects that outweigh whatever lesson you are trying to teach.. in the case of the speeding scenario, someone may have a distrust of the legal system after such an incident, they may lost their job and ability to support their family if they lose their license, etc. And in this case, if this is enforced, what will her son learn? That he is being punished unfairly, adults don't listen or take him seriously, etc. plus the long term consequences of having to fail an entire grade.

On another note- such ridiculous policies and punishments are one of the main reasons I will likely be homeschooling my son.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Now, that being said, it sucks that your kid got in trouble for having their clothes stolen. Unfortunately its a cumulative punishment...and the first two instances of no-clothes are legit (regardless of if the fault in the first case was yours, that is not the teacher's concern).

Since you've actually been a teacher, can I derail for just a minute to address this? How is it "legit"? If a child isn't responsible for his/her own laundry at home (whether they could/should be or not is another question), how do they learn anything by being held responsible for what their parents do or don't do?

This one's bugged me for a long time...since ds1's first grade teacher talked about his responsibility to get to school on time, even after I talked to her about some lifestyle/home life issues that were causing problems...and that ds1 was not able to address, being all of 6 years old at the time. How do students learn anything about responsibility by being punished for their parent's actions (or lack thereof)?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
He does have a lock on his gym locker but each locker gets shared between 3 kids.

This happened to ds1 in 8th grade, as well. The other kid didn't lock it, and ds1's gym clothes got stolen.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
if my child doesn't study for a test and gets an F then she will have to suck it up because of her choices. that is the consequence of her actions. for me to "swoop in" and call her teacher and demand that it isn't "fair" because there wasn't time to study/we had a late night/she forgot her book, is a total disservice to her.

And, what if the reason the child didn't study is because a parent didn't let him/her? I've known at least two girls who weren't allowed to study until the "important" stuff (ie. household chores) were done. I've known parents who have dragged their children along on outings and vacations and basically not allowed their children to study. If the parent then goes to the school and says, "yeah - Jane told me she had a Socials test, but we made her come along to X with us instead of study", why should the child still be punished? It was the OP who didn't wash her son's gym clothes, not her son.

The parent/child dynamic isn't the same as anything in the adult world. Someone used the example of a husband taking a movie back late, and still having to pay the fee...but the poster could have taken the movie back herself, so it _is_ her responsibility. A child can't just decide to overrule mom or dad, and if their decisions are negatively impacting the way he's being treated by school staff, then I don't think they're sending the wrong message by owning up to their own mistakes.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Since you've actually been a teacher, can I derail for just a minute to address this? How is it "legit"? *If a child isn't responsible for his/her own laundry at home (whether they could/should be or not is another question), how do they learn anything by being held responsible for what their parents do or don't do?*
This one's bugged me for a long time...since ds1's first grade teacher talked about his responsibility to get to school on time, even after I talked to her about some lifestyle/home life issues that were causing problems...and that ds1 was not able to address, being all of 6 years old at the time. How do students learn anything about responsibility by being punished for their parent's actions (or lack thereof)?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
And, what if the reason the child didn't study is because a parent didn't let him/her? I've known at least two girls who weren't allowed to study until the "important" stuff (ie. household chores) were done. I've known parents who have dragged their children along on outings and vacations and basically not allowed their children to study. If the parent then goes to the school and says, "yeah - Jane told me she had a Socials test, but we made her come along to X with us instead of study", why should the child still be punished? *It was the OP who didn't wash her son's gym clothes, not her son.*
The parent/child dynamic isn't the same as anything in the adult world. Someone used the example of a husband taking a movie back late, and still having to pay the fee...but the poster could have taken the movie back herself, so it _is_ her responsibility. A child can't just decide to overrule mom or dad, and if their decisions are negatively impacting the way he's being treated by school staff, then I don't think they're sending the wrong message by owning up to their own mistakes.

The OP and the OP's child know 3 non dresses are going to result in detention and that the merit points can be deducted in such a way that the child may actually fail a grade because of this. So, now that the chips have fallen, the mother decides she doesn't like the rules? It's like she didn't care about the rules when she failed to get the gym uniform washed and to school for him after the holiday break and her son didn't care about the rules when he forgot his gym uniform.
Now, *he's* looking at a consequence for his inaction and for his mother's inaction so they are going to refuse to accept that consequence because it just isn't _fair_. Again, these rules weren't made up last week just to thwart his progress through junior high school. I'm sure they knew what the discipline systen was from day one.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
The OP and the OP's child know 3 non dresses are going to result in detention and that the merit points can be deducted in such a way that the child may actually fail a grade because of this. So, now that the chips have fallen, the mother decides she doesn't like the rules? It's like she didn't care about the rules when she failed to get the gym uniform washed and to school for him after the holiday break and her son didn't care about the rules when he forgot his gym uniform.
Now, *he's* looking at a consequence for his inaction and for his mother's inaction so they are going to refuse to accept that consequence because it just isn't _fair_. Again, these rules weren't made up last week just to thwart his progress through junior high school. I'm sure they knew what the discipline systen was from day one.

Exactly.

If the OP is not interested in her son following the rules then she needs to find him another school or homeschool. Leaving him in school but swooping in with 'but but's every time the rules are enforced is setting everyone up for failure.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

All this talk about not following rules and swooping into the school screaming about not serving detention is absurd... unless I've missed something (and that's quite possible). The op said his clothes were stolen. So how is that her son's fault? And she said he's served detention before when it was warranted. I don't get how they aren't following the rules? I thought the rules were that you get detention for 3 times? Having your clothes stolen is not a valid reason to not have your gym clothes on? Wow.

And I think it's a big leap to say that the OP and her son didn't "care" enough to remember the clothes on the 2 other times he wasn't dressed.


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

I really don't see how not having the clothes washed is a valid excuse for being unprepared for class. Just wear them dirty, if you know it will put you one strike away from a detention.

I'm a middle school teacher, too, and kids that age are held responsible for their belongings and assignments. Of course they need lots of support from their teachers and parents, but ultimately, they need to be sure they have what they need each day for class. I could have written some of the same stuff as Flor.

There are two issues here: Working with the PE teacher directly about the concern that the third (and only the third) infraction may not have been the kid's fault that it may be justified to strike that from the record. And working with adminitsration (and the teacher?) to get them to help you replace the stolen uniform and deal with the theft itself.

Is he absolutely certain it was stolen? Of all the many times I've heard a kid say something was stolen, it was actually almost always misplaced by the kid and just in an unexpected place. (I often say to a kid, "you look for it, and I'll look for it, and whoever finds it first wins!" Usually after a few minutes the kid found what he was looking for in the wrong folder or the bottom of his locker, etc.) So before you go looking for help from the school, search for the uniform--be 100% sure it was indeed stolen.

Middle school kids are not, by nature, organized people. That's why they need us teachers and parents to support them as they learn how to be more responsible. But there can be a fine line betwen supporting them and making excuses for them. Even I find myself making excuses for my students sometimes, and then I have to remind myself that I'm not doing anyone any favors.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
The big problem here, IMO, is that the ultimate consequence of the theft is soooooooo freaking insane! Failing 6th grade because your gym uni got stolen and you parents can't buy a new one this month? For pete's sake!

OP, obviously you have to go to the VP and tell him about your situation. It's not just about a detention. I'm sorry you have to share personal details of your finances bc there was a theft at school.









I agree with this, and that the school should have loaner uniforms for those situations where uniforms are genuinely lost (if they are going to maintain this huge demerit system) or something similar. The consequences are not exactly in proportion with the crime.

That said, I think this is a valuable lesson given that those are the school rules. The first time he missed his uniform, he needed to understand that could not happen again, and it might have been a good time (hindsight is 20/20 - not blaming you!) to purchase a second "just in case" uniform, or even cheap shorts and a shirt in the same colours. The second time... well I guess I'm not clear on why you wouldn't wear a dirty uniform in that case - it's gross but it's kind of the logical consequence.

This time it is obviously not his fault, and the consequences seem to be huge, so I think it is time to help him speak up. But it's also a very good time to reinforce that when we know the rules in advance, we need to plan if the consequences are so severe.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I am confused as to why there is even a punishment attached to not having your gym clothes. If you don't have them, you have to wear your regular clothes during gym and be stinky for the rest of the day. Seems like enough of a natural consequence to me. I had gym in middle school and while we did not have a uniform, we did change into gym clothes. At least once a week, some kid forgot theirs and had to wear their regular clothes or miss the activity and get a zero for that day (out of 180 days, that is not a big deal IMO). Big deal.

Of course, you don't make the rules, so now what? I teach college classes and the excuses do not go away with adulthood. In my case, if a student is not prepared for class or does not turn in the assignment, the natural consequences are enough. No point in adding unrelated consequences. If I can help them (lend them a book or pencil, etc....), I will. But if I cannot, then they just have to deal. Sometimes the student misses an assignment/exam/whatever for something out of their control. If the student feels strongly enough that they are not at fault and should be given an excuse, they go to the university to seek an "approved absence" and I then do what needs to be done to accommodate. Even if it is their third missed assignment. The prior record has nothing to do with the individual circumstances. I see this as the same thing as the OP's case but the parent has to do the foot work due to the age of the child. It is an extenuating circumstance and I see no reason to not advocate for the child. I do not see it as "swooping in and fixing it all".


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I wish schools didnt focus so much on *punishment* to control behavior. Maybe thats not possible when you are trying to control the behavior of hundreds of people, i dunno (esp when its unnatural and super arbitrary controls, like having a *certain* folder, or wearing a *certain* gym outfit)...it just makes me sad that the only/main way to try to get a child to comply with certain expectations is through the threat of punishment. Its one of the main reasons i hate it when my kid chooses to go to school (he's been HS'd and public schooled)....

An example....my son (12 yrs old), challenged a kid to a "fight" at school over some silly point of "honor", and that spread through the school, so that at lunch time a huge group of seventh graders gathered around at lunchtime to watch this "fight"...which ended up being my son and this other kid toe to toe, being egged on by other students, but not actually touching each other. Neither was willing to "throw the first punch" so nothing happened. But they both got suspended for three days for "fighting", even though no fight occurred, the same amt of time it would have been had they actually hit each other. Ok, fine, i was happy to have my son home for three days anyway, and did talk to him about not fighting.

But then a flyer was sent home to all students about the end of the year party, and that the ONLY kids that could go to this "reward" party were the kids that were "good" all year and never received a suspension. My son's suspension took place in Sept or Oct. This party was in, i think, May. So he was already out of the reward that should have been to celebrate the end of the year (IMO all kids should have got to go to that.) I "get" that they are trying to encourage good behavior by having incentives, but there was no way to "earn back" something after you lost it. A mistake/bad decision in September meant no party in *May*...that makes no sense to me, and it to me overly punitive.

I worked with a woman whose son didnt not qualify for the end of the year trip to an amusement park, because he had too many absences. Didnt matter that he missed because he was getting chemo for his cancer! Can you believe that?!

Then, of course there is the issue of selectively enforcing these punishments based on whatever the Vice Principal feels like doing. A friend of the kid my son challenged to a "fight" was pissed on behalf of his friend about the suspension, so as my son was waiting for me to pick him up after school, sitting on a ledge about ten feet off the ground, that kid came and pushed him to the ground, causing his brand new thermos in his backpack to get broken. My son immediately ran into the building and reported it, but that kid wasnt suspended for his actions. He physically touched my son, and caused property damage, but they didnt suspend him because state testing was that week...but my son didnt even actually fight a kid and got three days. Its that kind of thing that does not exactly inspire a kid to do well in school.

Another time my son had to serve detention for missing too much school, even though i explained that several of those absences were due to a preplanned family vacation that we went on. Too bad. The only "excused" absences are for illnesses with a doctor's note (not enough for the parent to say he was sick.) And unlike many jobs, where if you miss three days in a row thats considered one "occurrance", each day of this vacation was counted against him. As if its my kid's fault that we had this vacation.

As a PP said, about her 6 yr old not getting to school on time but being told it was his responsibility....i dont think schools should hold kids accountable for things like absences that are clearly the responsibility of the parent (unless a six yr old can drive himself to school???)

I can totally see a school admin. stating "well, rules are rules, your gear got stolen, you should have been more careful!" or looking at it as just another excuse. Although i do think the mom should talk to the teacher or the vice principal anyway to see if she can get it excused and get help with not being able to afford a gym uniform. We dont have uniforms at my son's school, and they have gym every day, so i dont know how that would work.

Katherine


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I would say something. A child steals his clothes and he gets detention... even in the real world you would get a "trial" not just ASSUMED guilty. So I think stepping in as your childs "lawyer" in that sense there is nothing wrong with that. Teach him to be responsible for what he has done, and teach him how to get help for the things he is wrongly accused of. Sounds balanced to me... I personally dont think it would be healthy to tell child too bad and make them go...


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I am confused as to why there is even a punishment attached to not having your gym clothes. If you don't have them, you have to wear your regular clothes during gym and be stinky for the rest of the day. Seems like enough of a natural consequence to me. I had gym in middle school and while we did not have a uniform, we did change into gym clothes. At least once a week, some kid forgot theirs and had to wear their regular clothes or miss the activity and get a zero for that day (out of 180 days, that is not a big deal IMO). Big deal.

".









: I think it's a really stupid and uneccessary rule. I'm also surprised by how many here expect him to just go along with such a silly rule, because "i'ts the rule". Most of us pick and choose which rules we follow. An awful lot of non-GD being suggested here....


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I am not going to be popular but --- how did his gym clothes go a missing?

Do/did you have his name in them?

Honestly, (from my kids expereinces) I would think my kid left them behind and someone else picked them up or they are sitting in loss and found. Have you asked? Have you asked the teacher if she has spares or loss and found? Has he asked other students if they found them? Or maybe one of the other kids took them by accident. My dd, 11, swore someone stole her goggles. They were sitting in her top drawer. My 11 year old has swore people stole her books when she has misplaced them. My 11 yo has been accused of stealing another girl scout stuff becaues she picked up the wrong book -honest mistake-but I think it is the mentality/development of the age group. Honestly most kids don't purposely steal gym clothes. Unless he has a bully problem I would think he misplaced them...could he have put them in the wrong locker? I wonder how many times the teacher hears "Someone stole my gym clothes a year, when in reality that were misplaced." I think we need to work with kids because something is missing doesn't mean they were stolen. My 11 yo freaked because another boy took her towel...he had the same color towel it wasn't on purpose. My dh had to put his foot down and tell her she could not say he try to steal it one more time -- he accidently picked up the same color towel and thought it was his. She was very upset the next week when we pointed out to her that she picked up his towel this time (now we have names clearly written on them) and he accused her of stealing it.

My children know if they don't wash clothes it is their problem. You are not teaching him responciblity when you don't make that both your fault. He should have made sure they were washed --- unless he told you several times and you forgot. I would then admit my bad and show him how to make sure it doesn't happen again. I can see saying something to my kids like I will wash them with adn then forgetting about them. But I don't wash that much clothes that is their job. I do think saying next time they go unwashed take them anyway and wear them dirty instead of getting a point.

Also let this be a lesson to him. Hug him and said guessed if *we* were not careless then this wouldn't happen. Take some of the blame but not all of it-- you to are a team. I deal with this at work. People totally upset they are written up or fired for being late. They were late 11 times before for stupid reasons or carelessness. The 12th (in a calander year) time was out of their control but the policy is clearly stated and you are warned before you get to the finally time you are discharged. We also have people stuggling with performance matrics. It starts over every month. People go woo hoo beging of the month I can slack off then at the end of the month they are stressing out. They couldn't help they got the customer from hell the last day up that took up to much time and totally messed of the performance matrix. If you hadn't been goofing off the rest of the month it wouldn't matter. Total performance is looked at a lot. Not just the last few days. They look monthly, 3 months, and yearly--in some jobs it is a lot longer than that.

If your son and did mess up the first time the missing suit wouldn't matter much. This is a life lesson. Please understand in the real word the people that have it easiest when something goes wrong is the ones that do it right all the time. It is easier to forgive/over look infringes when a person takes responciblity and accepts their mistakes. You find people more willing to bend and work around rules.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Stormbride about yoru 6 year old being late for school. Many parents get their stuff together when they see it affecting their children. Also children are more likely to "bug" their parents to be on time when they see how being late affects them. It sucks when kids suffer from our bad decissions/life situations. (((((hugs)))) I know it is hard to be in that situation.

I homeschool but I don't disagree with being on time rules. The constantly late child is like a constantly late employee/co-worker.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I wish schools didnt focus so much on *punishment* to control behavior. Maybe thats not possible when you are trying to control the behavior of hundreds of people, i dunno (esp when its unnatural and super arbitrary controls, like having a *certain* folder, or wearing a *certain* gym outfit)...it just makes me sad that the only/main way to try to get a child to comply with certain expectations is through the threat of punishment. Its one of the main reasons i hate it when my kid chooses to go to school (he's been HS'd and public schooled)....

Even grading is by nature punitive. Really the only way I can see out of a system like this is to create smaller school sites , and have teachers responsible for fewer students.

An example....my son (12 yrs old), challenged a kid to a "fight" at school over some silly point of "honor", and that spread through the school, so that at lunch time a huge group of seventh graders gathered around at lunchtime to watch this "fight"...which ended up being my son and this other kid toe to toe, being egged on by other students, but not actually touching each other. Neither was willing to "throw the first punch" so nothing happened. But they both got suspended for three days for "fighting", even though no fight occurred, the same amt of time it would have been had they actually hit each other. Ok, fine, i was happy to have my son home for three days anyway, and did talk to him about not fighting.

Honestly in this situation it doesn't matter if a punch was never thrown. Your son and the other child were responsible for creating an inappropriate scene predicated on the threat of violence. Suspension, on the other hand, is a silly punishment...what kid is upset about having to stay home for three days? Especially when his parent is happy to have him?

I worked with a woman whose son didnt not qualify for the end of the year trip to an amusement park, because he had too many absences. Didnt matter that he missed because he was getting chemo for his cancer! Can you believe that?!

That is unconscionable!

Another time my son had to serve detention for missing too much school, even though i explained that several of those absences were due to a preplanned family vacation that we went on. Too bad. The only "excused" absences are for illnesses with a doctor's note (not enough for the parent to say he was sick.) And unlike many jobs, where if you miss three days in a row thats considered one "occurrance", each day of this vacation was counted against him. As if its my kid's fault that we had this vacation.

This is due to state law, and it makes perfect sense to me. Look, every school is paid by the state based on student attendance. When your child misses school the school suffers financially...this is the incentive the state creates to ensure that the schools care about student attrition. You are using the services of the school, and thus you have a responsibility to have your kids there. Of course vacation is not an excused absence...why should it be? In fact the reason most schools require a doctor's note for illness is because they are tired of being lied to by parents who are saying their kids are sick when they are actually on vacation. Sorry, but as a teacher this drives me crazy. Also I have never heard of a job where three sick days counted as one incident (that sounds a rather good deal)...Usually if you are sick you loose a sick day (or in hourly jobs you risk loosing your employment all together).

Just my two cents.


Oh and regarding having students do gym in their normal clothes....when all those kids end up in your history classroom with the horrible ventilation...ewwwwwww

(its often bad enough without the gym experience).


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
But it's also a very good time to reinforce that when we know the rules in advance, we need to plan if the consequences are so severe.

This.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
If your son and did mess up the first time the missing suit wouldn't matter much. This is a life lesson. Please understand in the real word the people that have it easiest when something goes wrong is the ones that do it right all the time. It is easier to forgive/over look infringes when a person takes responciblity and accepts their mistakes. You find people more willing to bend and work around rules.

This.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
The constantly late child is like a constantly late employee/co-worker.

And this.

But if I was the OP, I would absolutely be "swooping in." The punitive consequence in this case, failing a grade, is going to stay with the child until graduation, and is just excessive.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ecoteat* 

Is he absolutely certain it was stolen? Of all the many times I've heard a kid say something was stolen, it was actually almost always misplaced by the kid and just in an unexpected place. (I often say to a kid, "you look for it, and I'll look for it, and whoever finds it first wins!" Usually after a few minutes the kid found what he was looking for in the wrong folder or the bottom of his locker, etc.) So before you go looking for help from the school, search for the uniform--be 100% sure it was indeed stolen.

Middle school kids are not, by nature, organized people. That's why they need us teachers and parents to support them as they learn how to be more responsible. But there can be a fine line betwen supporting them and making excuses for them. Even I find myself making excuses for my students sometimes, and then I have to remind myself that I'm not doing anyone any favors.

I was thinking the same thing myself. Again, as a middle school teacher, I heard many times a day that something has been "jacked"







by someone. Every period, "Someone jacked my book!" "Someone jacked my journal!" "Someone jacked my pencil!" Usually I say, "Hmm, did you check your backpack?" and 90% of the time, the item is there. Students tell us something was stolen because it is the one way they won't get in trouble for being unprepared. I have students who come in 7th period without pencil and paper (they've been at school all day!) and when I push them about it they tell me they did have their supplies, but someone stole them earlier. What can I do?

Not saying that the OP's son's clothes weren't really stolen, sharing lockers sounds like a bad idea, but I'd guess the PE teachers hear it used as an excuse daily and they might not believe it. If a parent sent a note, that'd be ok for me.

Oh, and still wondering about failing PE= failing 6th grade. That isn't true here. You could fail math or English (and maybe both!) and still pass to 7th grade here.

In my state there are VERY strict laws about hours for PE. Students who don't have their gym clothes often can't participate (wearing sandals, tight jeans, etc.) and that is the real reason here for uniforms.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Exactly.

If the OP is not interested in her son following the rules then she needs to find him another school or homeschool. Leaving him in school but swooping in with 'but but's every time the rules are enforced is setting everyone up for failure.

Actually I do make my son follow the rules. When he doesn't turn in assignments or goes back into class late from lunch he serves detention. No problem what so ever. However, WHEN HIS CLOTHES ARE STOLEN I'm not going to make him serve detention. How do I know his clothes were really stolen because he told me and he isn't a liar. My son likes P.E. and doesn't make up excuses to not dress out. Since the first week of August when school started he has had a non dress two times!! Its not like he is trying to get out of dressing out all the time. Anyways to all of you that can see how crazy this detention is thank you. We have talked to the teacher and she didn't find his clothes anywhere in the gym. She said boys will boys and take things from each other. There is ALOT of theft at this school which suprises me because its in a very "High Class" area.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This one's bugged me for a long time...since ds1's first grade teacher talked about his responsibility to get to school on time, even after I talked to her about some lifestyle/home life issues that were causing problems...and that ds1 was not able to address, being all of 6 years old at the time. How do students learn anything about responsibility by being punished for their parent's actions (or lack thereof)?

That bugs me, too. There's only a certain amount of control a 6-year-old has in this situation. It's ridiculous to punish them for tardiness if it truly is the parent's fault.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I am confused as to why there is even a punishment attached to not having your gym clothes. If you don't have them, you have to wear your regular clothes during gym and be stinky for the rest of the day. Seems like enough of a natural consequence to me. I had gym in middle school and while we did not have a uniform, we did change into gym clothes. At least once a week, some kid forgot theirs and had to wear their regular clothes or miss the activity and get a zero for that day (out of 180 days, that is not a big deal IMO). Big deal.

I agree with this.

This school's whole merit system is really irritating.

I don't think he should get detention if his clothes were in the locker and then stolen out of it, considering that he's sharing the locker. He can't control the actions of his lockermates, if one of them left it unlocked.


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## jt'smum (Apr 13, 2004)

I would talk to the VP and the PE teacher. Also, the other two that share a locker with him need to be visited with about the clothes.

One more thing..."high class" doesn't mean that there will be less theft.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
The OP and the OP's child know 3 non dresses are going to result in detention and that the merit points can be deducted in such a way that the child may actually fail a grade because of this. So, now that the chips have fallen, the mother decides she doesn't like the rules? It's like she didn't care about the rules when she failed to get the gym uniform washed and to school for him after the holiday break and her son didn't care about the rules when he forgot his gym uniform.
Now, *he's* looking at a consequence for his inaction and for his mother's inaction so they are going to refuse to accept that consequence because it just isn't _fair_. Again, these rules weren't made up last week just to thwart his progress through junior high school. I'm sure they knew what the discipline systen was from day one.

Excuse me? The demerit system is based on _three_ failures to have gym clothes. The third one was because his clothes were stolen. He's not facing the consequences of his actions. He only has two failures to have his gym clothes that were in any way his fault.

In any case, you completely sidestepped the question I was asking. Even putting the least generous interpretation (that she "didn't care about the rules") on his mom not getting his gym uniform washed, it wasn't _him_ that failed to have his gym clothes for school. What I was asking is how it teaches anyone responsibility to give them consequences for someone else's actions? Teaching people that they have to pay the penalty for the mistakes their parents make is fine, if that's what schools want to do. I just don't understand this pretense that it has something to do with personal responsibility and accountability. One of the hardest things for me to deal with in the workplace was the frequency with which employers held people responsible for things they had no authority over...and this is the same thing.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

I think I'm going to come and revisit this thread when my passion for homeschooling is waning! I really, really feel for teachers and administrators who have to devise and attempt to enforce rules like these because it's simply the reality of having to manage and teach so many kids at once. I know it's the best system we've got, and I'm grateful that it's there, but whew!

OP, did you get a verdict on the detention? Does he have to serve it? (I read the thread, but may have missed whether there was a resolution!) Does not serving it carry its own consequences?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jt'smum* 
I would talk to the VP and the PE teacher. Also, the other two that share a locker with him need to be visited with about the clothes.

One more thing..."high class" doesn't mean that there will be less theft.

ITA, and ITA. So much of the theft that goes on in schools is more about teasing/opportunity/messing with others and much less about "class" or actual need.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Stormbride about yoru 6 year old being late for school. Many parents get their stuff together when they see it affecting their children. Also children are more likely to "bug" their parents to be on time when they see how being late affects them. It sucks when kids suffer from our bad decissions/life situations. (((((hugs)))) I know it is hard to be in that situation.

Yes. I know. I didn't get my stuff together until almost the end of that year. Trust me, the fact that his teacher was on his case about being on time was the least of his suffering over the home situation. I left his dad in April of that school year, which was the only possible way to fix the problem. DS1 bugging me wasn't going to help, which I made _very_ clear to the teacher. She didn't give a crap, because she was too hipped on teaching him to be responsible for something that he had no power to change. What a screwed up message!

Quote:

I homeschool but I don't disagree with being on time rules. The constantly late child is like a constantly late employee/co-worker.
Nope. The constantly late child is totally dependent on someone else to get to school. When the bridge near my house was being repaired, and traffic delays happened all the time, I talked to my employer. I caught one bus earlier each day, and that was _usually_ enough to get me to work on time. Some days, it wasn't. My employer knew what was going on, and knew that I had _no control_ over the bridge - none at all. So, as long as I was obviously doing my best, they didn't get upset about it during the six month period that the bridge wasn't consistently open. That's because my boss grasped the fact that expecting people to be responsible for things they have no ability to change is totally illogical. I understand why the teacher wanted ds1 to be on time, but he _wasn't_ responsible for being there on time, because _he_ couldn't change that. Holding people responsible for things they have no authority over is a widespread complaint in the work world...and it doesn't make any more sense in the school system.

Yeah - a 12 year old's gym clothes are a little more nebulous than a 6 year old needing his mom to walk him to school. But, if I were responsible for my kid getting a demerit, I'd hardly characterize it as "swooping in to bail him out" if I wanted to clarify that at the school. I've never been one to bail ds1 out for his own actions...even when I don't agree with the way the school approaches things. In the case of his lateness in first grade, I _did_ talk to the school, because _his_ actions weren't the reason for his tardies.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
In my state there are VERY strict laws about hours for PE. Students who don't have their gym clothes often can't participate (wearing sandals, tight jeans, etc.) and that is the real reason here for uniforms.

Yeah - that's why I "didn't have my gym strip" every day for three years. If I didn't have it, I wasn't forced to participate. I thought it was a really stupid policy, but I was quite happy to take advantage of it to get out of that torture class. OTOH...I was perfectly able to participate in my jeans (and they were tight - this was the 80s, after all). I ran in tight jeans. I climbed in tight jeans. I occasionally (very occasionally, because I suck at stuff like that and it was humiliating) played Frisbee with friends in tight jeans. Kicking a soccer ball around on the field wouldn't have been a problem.

I actually hate gym strip rules (even though they made my life a lot easier as a teen), because they accentuate our weird cultural tendency to make exercise into something that's separate from life, instead of part of it. I think they're counterproductive, if the point of PE is to get kids to be more active. (Mind you, I also think PE is pointless itself, so there you go.)

OP: I hope things work out. The demerit system at that school would drive me around the bend.


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## jt'smum (Apr 13, 2004)

I agree its not a 6yr olds fault that he is late for school or at least in some cases. The thing is the child still pays for being late. It can make the day harder for him/her, they may miss something they need to be there for etc. I don't agree with the teacher talking about it with your son. It should have never been mentioned to him. To me that just makes it worse and makes the child feel bad for something he can't control. When students in my class were late consistantly I would call the parents and simply ask why. Not harp on the kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jt'smum* 
I agree its not a 6yr olds fault that he is late for school or at least in some cases. The thing is the child still pays for being late. It can make the day harder for him/her, they may miss something they need to be there for etc.

In ds1's case, it only made it harder because it was such a huge issue.

Quote:

I don't agree with the teacher talking about it with your son. It should have never been mentioned to him. To me that just makes it worse and makes the child feel bad for something he can't control. When students in my class were late consistantly I would call the parents and simply ask why. Not harp on the kids.
That's what I found so frustrating. I laid out a lot of the reasons it was happening, and made it very clear that it was _not_ his fault...and she still got on his case every time he was late.


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## jt'smum (Apr 13, 2004)

At that point I would have gone to the principal. I have had issues with DD teacher this year. I talked to her numerous times and no change. I then requested a meeting her, the principal and I. Now things have changed. Its frustrating when adults blame kids for things they have no control over.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
if my child doesn't study for a test and gets an F then she will have to suck it up because of her choices. that is the consequence of her actions. for me to "swoop in" and call her teacher and demand that it isn't "fair" because there wasn't time to study/we had a late night/she forgot her book, is a total disservice to her. she must learn to have responsibility. on the other hand, if she studies her butt off and gets an A, the the natural consequence is that of being proud and feeling happy.

But if your daughter can't study because someone stole her book - then she should get an F as well?

And even in college there are situations where rules get bent. There is a rule at my school where if you miss the first class you get dropped. I was having a really bad miscarriage and was on bed rest due to hemorrhage and passing out. Dh took me to my first class and my prof let me leave. Everyone else didnt suddenly want to leave with a m/c excuse.

In a class this semester we had a paper due each week. We all knew this. If someone came to class without a paper too bad. BUT, when one students mom died the teacher let her not turn it in and didnt penalize her. None of the other students screamed "unfair!" The teacher didnt have to do it but she is a kind person and understands exceptions for life.

When I was a kid my mom would take up for me if i needed the help. If it was my fault i knew not to bother. BUT, if something happening was unfair she would go to bat for me.


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
But if your daughter can't study because someone stole her book - then she should get an F as well?

And even in college there are situations where rules get bent. There is a rule at my school where if you miss the first class you get dropped. I was having a really bad miscarriage and was on bed rest due to hemorrhage and passing out. Dh took me to my first class and my prof let me leave. Everyone else didnt suddenly want to leave with a m/c excuse.

In a class this semester we had a paper due each week. We all knew this. If someone came to class without a paper too bad. BUT, when one students mom died the teacher let her not turn it in and didnt penalize her. None of the other students screamed "unfair!" The teacher didnt have to do it but she is a kind person and understands exceptions for life.

When I was a kid my mom would take up for me if i needed the help. If it was my fault i knew not to bother. BUT, if something happening was unfair she would go to bat for me.

of course not....and i never said that. if people want to keep quoting me without actually reading the *entire thread* (as i was responding to someone other than the OP in that response you quoted) then whatever.









i've already said in roughly all 6 times i've posted that the theft is not the fault of the student. good grief!









OP i sincerely hope you get this worked out and find a resolution that is fair all around. and with that i'm done.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vm9799* 
of course not....and i never said that. if people want to keep quoting me without actually reading the *entire thread* (as i was responding to someone other than the OP in that response you quoted) then whatever.









i've already said in roughly all 6 times i've posted that the theft is not the fault of the student. good grief!









OP i sincerely hope you get this worked out and find a resolution that is fair all around. and with that i'm done.

I read the whole thread. Maybe it is because you start off with this "swooping in" talk. If it doesn't count for theft then why say it in the first place? Obviously your point is not clear if you are having to reexplain again and again. You said if your dd didn't study - she deserved an F. This is an issue of theft not of forgetting. It seems like you are arguing a point that isn't in the op.

And since you love smilies







:














I think they are much nicer then the ones you used.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
But if your daughter can't study because someone stole her book - then she should get an F as well?

And even in college there are situations where rules get bent. There is a rule at my school where if you miss the first class you get dropped. I was having a really bad miscarriage and was on bed rest due to hemorrhage and passing out. Dh took me to my first class and my prof let me leave. Everyone else didnt suddenly want to leave with a m/c excuse.

In a class this semester we had a paper due each week. We all knew this. If someone came to class without a paper too bad. BUT, when one students mom died the teacher let her not turn it in and didnt penalize her. None of the other students screamed "unfair!" The teacher didnt have to do it but she is a kind person and understands exceptions for life.

When I was a kid my mom would take up for me if i needed the help. If it was my fault i knew not to bother. BUT, if something happening was unfair she would go to bat for me.

Oh, sure death and medical excuses are one thing, but what if you didn't get there on the first day because your car wouldn't start? Or, your ride didn't pick you up? Not your fault. What if you didn't turn in your paper because you ran out of ink? Or, you read last week's directions? Not really your fault, just bad luck.
I think so often there are small consequences for things that aren't exactly in our control. When the consequence is great, we might try to fight for our "rights" and when the consequence is smaller, we just get over it. Now imagine that a teacher sees hundreds of students a day and a LARGE number of them have these excuses. Do you keep track of them all and follow up and check with parents? I don't, because I'm not sure you can imagine the huge number of excuses I hear everyday. If a student went out of their way to bring a note from home, I'll accept that, but really when I see them making up reasons why it's not their fault on the spot, I'm sorry. Bad luck. Try again next time. If we all had small classes with students who generally tried their best to do their work, I think it would be no problem. With my 1 teen son at home, it is not problems. But when I have 180 essays due and 80 of them (seriously) ran out of ink, had their backpack stolen, left it in moms car, friend was supposed to turn it in, dad said he'd bring it after lunch and I don't know why he isn't here, . . . .
I don't hold it against them, I think it is a middle school thing that I'm sure they will grow out of .
To me, not having the laundry done falls into that catergory. Someone stealing your things is more in the death/medical/emergency catergory.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

The P.E. teacher called me last night and explained some things to me. First of all they did change their dress out policy. In the start of the year the policy was everytime a child has a non dress they get 2 merit points deducted from the hundred they start with. Well the school thought it was to much paperwork so they changed the system. Now its 5 merit points deducted and detention for every 3rd non dress. Why they didn't send info home on this she had no clue. She says unless its a MAJOR new rule they just update the handbook at the start of the next school year







. The VP of the school is in charge of all 6th graders and she is going to talk with the VP about getting this detention excused and giving him back his five merit points. She also said she is trying to get this dress out policy changed. The school works off of a trimester system and she is trying to get it where a student can have 2 non dress per trimester without getting detention. She stated that as a mom of three boys she understands that children do forget gym clothes or parents space on getting them washed ect. She doesn't believe that 2 non dresses per trimester would be the end of the world.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
The P.E. teacher called me last night and explained some things to me. First of all they did change their dress out policy. In the start of the year the policy was everytime a child has a non dress they get 2 merit points deducted from the hundred they start with. Well the school thought it was to much paperwork so they changed the system. Now its 5 merit points deducted and detention for every 3rd non dress. Why they didn't send info home on this she had no clue. She says unless its a MAJOR new rule they just update the handbook at the start of the next school year







. The VP of the school is in charge of all 6th graders and she is going to talk with the VP about getting this detention excused and giving him back his five merit points. She also said she is trying to get this dress out policy changed. The school works off of a trimester system and she is trying to get it where a student can have 2 non dress per trimester without getting detention. She stated that as a mom of three boys she understands that children do forget gym clothes or parents space on getting them washed ect. She doesn't believe that 2 non dresses per trimester would be the end of the world.


Excellent resolution.







:


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Oh, sure death and medical excuses are one thing, but what if you didn't get there on the first day because your car wouldn't start? Or, your ride didn't pick you up? Not your fault. What if you didn't turn in your paper because you ran out of ink? Or, you read last week's directions? Not really your fault, just bad luck.
I think so often there are small consequences for things that aren't exactly in our control. When the consequence is great, we might try to fight for our "rights" and when the consequence is smaller, we just get over it. Now imagine that a teacher sees hundreds of students a day and a LARGE number of them have these excuses. Do you keep track of them all and follow up and check with parents? I don't, because I'm not sure you can imagine the huge number of excuses I hear everyday. If a student went out of their way to bring a note from home, I'll accept that, but really when I see them making up reasons why it's not their fault on the spot, I'm sorry. Bad luck. Try again next time. If we all had small classes with students who generally tried their best to do their work, I think it would be no problem. With my 1 teen son at home, it is not problems. But when I have 180 essays due and 80 of them (seriously) ran out of ink, had their backpack stolen, left it in moms car, friend was supposed to turn it in, dad said he'd bring it after lunch and I don't know why he isn't here, . . . .
I don't hold it against them, I think it is a middle school thing that I'm sure they will grow out of .
To me, not having the laundry done falls into that catergory. Someone stealing your things is more in the death/medical/emergency catergory.


Eh, she didn't have to let me skip class - she was kind.

I have run out of ink and being an adult (with a car) I was able to get to kinkos and pay to print it out. I have also left my binder on the top of the car and driven away only to realize when i got to class what happened. That prof let me run home and get it because i wasn't one to make excuses, I didn't sleep or text in class, wasn't rude etc. I think there is a huge place for discretion in life and no not everything will be fair.

And I get the million adolescent excuses. If there was a note from home then it has more weight. Though i have seen notes that said "Jimmy had basketball practice so he didnt do his paper" and it was expected that at THIS SCHOOL basketball was an excuse to not do work - and most teachers went along with it.

Anyhow, OP I hope you get a satisfactory answer and everything works out for your ds.


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## jt'smum (Apr 13, 2004)

I have gotten the "Jimmy didn't get paper done because of ____sport." It irkes me to no end. I haven't ever let it slide because of sports.

As far as ink running out, most printers will tell you when the ink is low and you can check as well, car not starting yep it sucks but ya gotta figure it out and get there.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kristi96* 
The P.E. teacher called me last night and explained some things to me. First of all they did change their dress out policy. In the start of the year the policy was everytime a child has a non dress they get 2 merit points deducted from the hundred they start with. Well the school thought it was to much paperwork so they changed the system. Now its 5 merit points deducted and detention for every 3rd non dress. Why they didn't send info home on this she had no clue. She says unless its a MAJOR new rule they just update the handbook at the start of the next school year







. The VP of the school is in charge of all 6th graders and she is going to talk with the VP about getting this detention excused and giving him back his five merit points. She also said she is trying to get this dress out policy changed. The school works off of a trimester system and she is trying to get it where a student can have 2 non dress per trimester without getting detention. She stated that as a mom of three boys she understands that children do forget gym clothes or parents space on getting them washed ect. She doesn't believe that 2 non dresses per trimester would be the end of the world.









: for a sensible teacher!







: that the school goes along with it. Per semester is infinitely more reasonable.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree that sounds more reasonable.

I dont understand the current polich though?

2 demerits for each non-dress is too much paper work

so instead lets do

5 demerits per each non dress AND detention for every 3rd non dress.
(thats the same or more paper work - and more punishment) now, if they were doing no demerits I could understand how that would be less paper work, and how also it would help the student keep their grade up. I think the demerits per non dress makes more sense though then detention... and i do think if the parent says "its my fault I never sent the clothes back in" that it should be excused. give the parent the demerits or something. makes no sense to punish a child for their PARENTS mistakes!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
The OP and the OP's child know 3 non dresses are going to result in detention and that the merit points can be deducted in such a way that the child may actually fail a grade because of this. So, now that the chips have fallen, the mother decides she doesn't like the rules? It's like she didn't care about the rules when she failed to get the gym uniform washed and to school for him after the holiday break and her son didn't care about the rules when he forgot his gym uniform.
Now, *he's* looking at a consequence for his inaction and for his mother's inaction so they are going to refuse to accept that consequence because it just isn't _fair_. Again, these rules weren't made up last week just to thwart his progress through junior high school. I'm sure they knew what the discipline systen was from day one.

They didn't worry about it back when it was only going to be the second of three times. Because, really, it's not a big deal.

Where it becomes a big deal is when the third time is because of a theft, totally out of either the OP's or her ds's control or responsibility. It becomes a bigger deal when there's going to be a 4th,5th,6th, etc, incident of losing points because there isn't a uniform to put on.

Anyway, the OP's son is very very lucky that his gym teacher is more compassionate than it seemed in his first encounter.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
5 demerits per each non dress AND detention for every 3rd non dress.

I think that they were grouping them by 3s and replacing one demerit point by a detention (which gives an idea of the weight of demerit points at that school). So nothing happens two times and then the third time it's 5 pts+detention. Of course that'd mean, theoretically that the OP would have at least two more gym days before not having a uniform mattered. All this being, hopefully, irrelevant as things get worked out with the teacher and VP.

(Personally, I'll be homeschooling because very few teachers deserve to have me on their case about BS policies that they have no control over.







)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

ah I see! okay, that makes more sense even if I dont agree with the process of it all.

Whats a shame is that they aren't looking into the fact that something may have gotten stolen. Not dressing for class - detention. Stealing someones clothes so they can't dress for class - not worth investigating, so yo will probably get away with it.


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## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

wow. i wouldn't have believed that so many people would say (basically) yep that's the consequence/ that's how the world works. what about kindness, compassion, understanding, helping one another?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

The real world equivalent of this situation would be getting speeding ticket from a cop whose radar is broken, and him saying "oh well, it still read 70 so that means you were speeding, even if you really _were_ only going 45. Besides, you got a speeding ticket 6 months ago driving your wife to the ER, so you must have been speeding again." Then going to court and being told "It's possible his radar is not working properly, but we aren't going to look into it because _some_ people say they weren't speeding but they really were." OR someone cutting your break lines and then you are unable to stop at a stop sign and getting a ticket for that, without them trying to locate the person who cut your break lines. and saying 'well the rule is you stop at the stop sign or you get a ticket.' instead of, when the person says i hit the break and it wouldn't stop, them looing and seeing the break lines cut and investigating for a possible murder attempt.

im hoping this is because the members of MDC would rather assume a child is lying about gym clothes then assume that a child would steal. I have had many things stolen from me in middle school especially (CD's, coats, a belt, a wallet, and actually, in fact, gym clothes too!) In some cases it was a lesson learned in being responsible for my belongings, but realizing you need to be more careful with your belongings does not mean that its okay for someone to steal them either.


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