# Do you eat organic/natural foods and vaccinate your children?



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I am just curious about this. I am just wondering how many people eat organically/naturally and choose to vaccinate their children.


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## KariM (Mar 13, 2004)

DS was fully vaxed. DD has been selectively vaxed up to 6 months. I finally told DH that I want to delay any further vax until she's at least 2 years old.

We originally wanted her to get the DPT series because DH's workplace had several reported cases of whooping cough and he was directly exposed for long periods of time. He was tested and luckily didn't contract the disease.

--Kari


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## SmilingChick (Apr 6, 2005)

We eat organic I'd say 75% of the time - if we eat at a restaurant or at other people's homes, we eat conventionally. And we order pizza once a week!
DD is 5 months and has had no vax yet. We are delaying and selectively vaccinating.


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## lisap (Dec 18, 2004)

We eat organic 100% of the time at home and usually bring organic food for DD when we visit other homes. We have a very "natural" home, we don't use any chemicals. She has been fully vaxed and it was a decision carefully discuss with our ped.


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## GoodEats (Mar 14, 2005)

Yes, natural / organic foods and everyone's vaccinated... Why? Are they usually mutually exclusive?


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

we eat organic 80% of the time. my dd is 7 months and is not vaxed with the exception of one hep b shot, three days after birth.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

We eat about 90% organic, DS is delayed/selectively vaxed.


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## midwestmom (Feb 5, 2005)

yes, and yes.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Yes, though we vax selectively and on a delayed schedule.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

we eat organic / natural whenever possible, and our kids are vaccinated.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

we eat as much organic as possible, and no, my kids aren't vaxed.
mandi


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodEats*
Yes, natural / organic foods and everyone's vaccinated... Why? Are they usually mutually exclusive?

No, I wouldn't think so. I was just curious to know. My thoughts were, after extensive research on food and vaccines (separately), that vaccines contain *ingredients*
that would get a food distributor shut down if they had those things in their food. So I personally don't understand how one would do both, but it's not any of my business, nor do I really even want to know, what others reasons are for their choices.

I was actually thinking about it because a while back I saw that Barbara Walter's special interviewing the Bush twins. In that show, there was a part where they were talking about how Laura Bush was so fussy about them having natural stuff and making them all their own baby food from only organic foods and such. They went on about other things and natural lifestyle. Knowing that Bush is pro-vax, I started to wonder if they had been vaxed or not. Then I was wondering how many others eat the same way we do and choose to vaccinate. The reason I posted in on here to ask is because literally every single family in know personally that eats organically, does not vaccinate either.

Just be clear though, I am not knocking anyone's decisions. Like I said before, it's none of my business why people do what they do.


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## midwestmom (Feb 5, 2005)

hmmm, most of the people I know that eat naturally/organically are selectively vaxed.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midwestmom*
hmmm, most of the people I know that eat naturally/organically are selectively vaxed.

That's why I wanted to ask here.


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## GoodEats (Mar 14, 2005)

Interesting. Perhaps it's because those who typically serve whole, organic foods are health research nuts (I know I am) and tend to make more considered decisions regarding family health.
That is interesting, though... I'd never thought of food and vaccination together.







Hmmmmm.


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## Yemaya1 (Oct 20, 2004)

I am a vegan. I eat natural foods. My son is not vaxed.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodEats*
... I'd never thought of food and vaccination together.

Really? Then I am guessing you haven't heard of the talk of vaccines being in foods for "easy administration". More like sneaky administration than easy. Hopefully that will never happen, but I woudn't be surprised of anything anymore.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I buy nearly 100% organic (although my children are 'out in the world', so do not eat organic 100%). My two youngest are totaly unvax'd. My second child was vax'd before she was placed in my arms via adoption, and my oldest (16) just had Hep B. (which went against my wishes) but was unvax'd prior.


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## GoodEats (Mar 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Really? Then I am guessing you haven't heard of the talk of vaccines being in foods for "easy administration". More like sneaky administration than easy. Hopefully that will never happen, but I woudn't be surprised of anything anymore.

No, I must have missed that. That's appalling. We vaccinate because we prefer to try to prevent the majority of serious diseases, rather than taking the risk of having to treat them, but to remove a parent's choice is just... well, it's just an appalling idea.

What's next, nutrition via IV instead of eating? I mean, if the FDA could supply the required nutrition for everyone that way, the national obesity problem would be all but solved.


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## veggigoddess (Apr 17, 2005)

Baby is due tomorrow (if he cooperatres and comes on his due date







but he will be eating organcially and non-GMO as my hubbby & I already eat this way. Regarding the Vaccination, I do not know yet. I want to speak w/ my midwife regarding that issue to get her perspective.


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## midwestmom (Feb 5, 2005)

Kelly, I do see your point and am also horrified at the vax in food thing-hadn't heard anything about that. I mostly or selectively vax b/c of the same reasons that goodeats discussed, but certainly am not thrilled with the things in vaccines. I am sure most informed vaccinating parents feel that way. I don't take the 'toxins' in vaccines lightly. I just think that this is best for my family as is eating naturally/organically.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodEats*
What's next, nutrition via IV instead of eating? I mean, if the FDA could supply the required nutrition for everyone that way, the national obesity problem would be all but solved.

Apparently there are some scientists that predict that all nutrition, in the future, will be able to be obtained simply in pill form. Somehow I highly doubt this will be appropriate nutrition, but I am sure the gov't will!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midwestmom*
Kelly, I do see your point and am also horrified at the vax in food thing-hadn't heard anything about that. I mostly or selectively vax b/c of the same reasons that goodeats discussed, but certainly am not thrilled with the things in vaccines. I am sure most informed vaccinating parents feel that way. I don't take the 'toxins' in vaccines lightly. I just think that this is best for my family as is eating naturally/organically.

I too, didn't like the things in them when dd was a baby but did it anyway. She did receive vax's until she was 6m months old. Then things went bad and she had a pretty nasty reaction to the round at 6 months. I thank God that it doesn't seem to be a severe life altering reaction, but she does now have a wheat allergy that is suspected to be related to that event. In a 3 year old's mind, that is severe :LOL I myself have an auto-immune disease that is directly related to the Hep B vax I got in high school, and I am finding out that a number of other classmates of mine have the exact same thing as well.

I hope you don't think that I think anyone who is informed takes these things lightly. I cried each time dd got her shots because I didn't want her to get them, but I was also afraid for her not too. Now, due to the above mentioned events, we have made the decisions that we have.


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## Aiti (Dec 24, 2003)

We eat mostly natural and organic foods, almost no processed foods, and I'm working on cutting out sugar, or at least severely limiting it. We have vaccinated both of our children, although we have delayed some of the vaccinations (ie. not having all 4 done at a particular well-check but coming back later for the ones we skipped.
Of course as a second-guessing Mom, I wonder about these decisions all the time but we felt this was best for us.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

We eat a good amount of organic and minimize processed things. Our children are selectively vaxed.


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## love2all (Dec 13, 2003)

We eat 90% organic and do not vax....


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## brijenn (Feb 12, 2005)

My children eat whole foods (very little processed) and organic when possible and they are and will be completely vax'd...


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

We eat whole foods, organic as much as possible and no vax for the kids.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

my mom's a pediatrician, so she vaxed my sister and I completely, but we also ate about 80% organic. same with all the partners in her office.


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## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

Vegan, whole foods, organic, selectively-vaxed.

ETA: While I am confident in our dietary decisions, I remain conflicted on the vax issue.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *callmemama*
Vegan, whole foods, organic, selectively-vaxed.

ETA: While I am confident in our dietary decisions, I remain conflicted on the vax issue.

Me too.







We are vegetarians, mostly organic (organic on all the vegetables that conventionally-grown versions have high pesticide residues) and whole foods. It's easy to feel good about what we eat, harder to feel good about vaccinations, and even about medicine in general. I wish we didn't live in such a scary world.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Is there a way for me to just add a poll to this thread? I tried when I originally posted it, but it didn't work. Am I dumb? Uh........nevermind, don't answer that last one!


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

We try to only eat organic and whole foods, but since the nearest place to shop is over an hour away, we sometimes have to resort to conventional. We are working toward eliminating dairy because we feel it just isn't healthy for our family, but we do still eat some organic, free range meats. DD had some vaccinations until we saw the light and she has not received one since. DS has not had any vaccinations and probably will not ever have them.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

You can add a poll - click on thread tools and it is one of the options.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

I am veggie, my family eats mostly organic/natural, and my kids are selectively vaxed.


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## butterflyma (May 14, 2002)

Natural foods & Vax


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

nak

we don't vax and our eating more and more organic


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

We eat organic whenever I can get it ... we live in a small town so it's hard to do. I do like to travel to a Whole Foods once a month or so, but it's two hours away.

Alex was fully vaxed ... he's now on the Autistic spectrum. Was it connected? I'll never know. My next child will be selectively vaxed with delays.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

We eat whole foods, organic as much as possible and no vax for the kids.
Us too.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Organic foods only and NO Vaccines at all.

Quote:

At least two ingredients in vaccines are incredibly dangerous. They are *mercury* and *formaldehyde*, both used as preservaties. Even the Australian Cancer Council says there is NO safe level of formaldehyide.


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## peacefulmom (Jul 20, 2002)

yuo probably 70% organic..and fully vaxed kiddos...but with 8 month old we dalay some....interesting question mamma


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

We feed ds 90% organic, we eat probably 50% organic (because of the expense mostly - we save it for ds), very little sugar and refined foods, and NO vax.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I just wanted to add this link here as well in my edited post for those that might be subscribed to this thread: http://poisonevercure.150m.com/ingredients.htm This is a list of vaccine ingredients.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

yes they have a lot of nasty ingredients, but in such tiny amounts that there is very little risk associated with them... whereas not vaccinating carries the giant risk that your child might contract a nasty incurable disease. and the levels of poisons in food from conventional farming are far higher ~ and completely unnecessary! vaccine manufacturers have not yet found a way to manufacture vaccines without those chemicals ~ but farmers have known for centuries how to farm without pesticides / fertilizers / hormones...

i'm not trying to put down anyone's choices... but as a budding microbiologist it really bakes my noodle to see us heading toward a day when preventable pandemics ravage the human population ~ and now i'm not just referring to vaccination but the overuse of anti-microbials and over-prescribed broad-spectrum antibiotics ~ gah!

you're right tayndrewsmama that these two issues are connected, definitely. people need to have a more unified worldview! look how long it took scientists to understand the Hanta Virus, because they couldn't "think outside the box," whereas the native americans had figured it out centuries before just by listening to the earth and being able to see connections in all things.......

//nak (phew!)


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
yes they have a lot of nasty ingredients, but in such tiny amounts that there is very little risk associated with them... whereas not vaccinating carries the giant risk that your child might contract a nasty incurable disease.

Everyone has their opinion and I am not gonna argue it with you. We'll just have to agree to disagee on this one. You are talking to someone who's daughter had a bad vaccine reaction and I have an auto-immune disease related to the Hep B vax, as well as a number of other classmates of mine who got the same vax from the same doc's office. Going nowhere with me on this one.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I know I said I wouldn't do this, but I just can't help it. Seriously now, how many of these diseases that have vaccines for them are truly incurable. I am talking about the disease itself, not under the right circumstances with a number of other problems. Don't think that I think that any of these things are things I want my children to get, but I know the life long and life altering damage that vaccines can cause. Ya don't get the chicken pox or the measels for the rest of your life.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
..but in such tiny amounts that there is very little risk associated with them...

That is interesting. What is the safe amount of aluminium, Phenol, antibiotics, or formaldehyde in a newborn's tiny body?

I have just read that *mercury exposure - even in amounts as tiny as one micromolar, or one-thousandth of a microgram- leads to direct degeneration of the brain neurons.*

I'm not saying that those kids can't recover, but... do they make a full recovery? How do we know?

Quote:

whereas not vaccinating carries the giant risk that your child might contract a nasty incurable disease.

Then how come in countries where they don't push vaccines and the people are well off, such as Europeans, kids are not dying in droves?

How come they have a much lower infant mortality rate than the US?
How come they don't have childhood epidemics?
How come their kids are way ahead of our kids in schools?

Quote:

vaccine manufacturers have not yet found a way to manufacture vaccines without those chemicals
Is anyone looking?

Quote:

... but as a budding microbiologist it really bakes my noodle to see us heading toward a day when preventable pandemics ravage the human population ~
We are in the midst of an autism epidemic and no one seems it notice except the parents of the vaccine damaged kids.

www.safeminds.org


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Perhaps this thread will help too: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=275511


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## einalems (Feb 23, 2005)

We try to eat healthfully, with as much organic as possible. My 1st DD is almost fully vaxed -- going against what I felt. No vaxs for 16 mo DS -- not now, not ever.









Very interesting post.


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## mamatowill (Aug 23, 2004)

I feed my ds organically/naturally and also vax. I am considering whether to delay with the next round.

I have always found this topic interesting. With vaccines in the west most of us have had them so there is a kind of herd immunity for the ones that are not vaxed. What happens when the balance of people are not vaxed? Will there be an increase in preventable diseases. I am vaxing partly due to the fact that many of my family members have had to live with the consequences of polio. Also when I was doing my research one of the statistics which I found pointed out that 10% of people who contracted tetanus would still die- even with all of the current medical treatment and early diagnoses. The question I ask myself is which is the smaller risk to me- the vaccine or the disease. If my child had been damaged or myself by vaccines that would definitely change that balance. Both sides carry risks. Plus i know one person mentioned chicken pox. Chicken pox stays in your body forever and can keep flaring up as shingles throughout your life. My mother gets it frequently. Also my doctor mentioned that the cases of chicken pox that go to the hospital can have the added complication of flesh eating disease. I discuss the vaxes with my doctor before giving them.

I am not taking anyone's position lightly. I know I will not change anyone's mind and other statisitcs can be brought forward. I just wanted to put insight into a small part of what information I use when making my decision to vax.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *einalems*
Very interesting post.

Thanks! I had been dying to know for awile now. I must say, though, that I am pretty surprised by the results though.

Oh yeah, I STILL can't figure out how in the world to add a poll to this thing!!!!!


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## justpickles (Jul 27, 2004)

I confess that DH and I do not eat exclusively organic, but baby boy does! And all three of my boys have been vaxed.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *callmemama*
Vegan, whole foods, organic, selectively-vaxed.

ETA: While I am confident in our dietary decisions, I remain conflicted on the vax issue.

Good for you. We are all learning to make the very best decisions for ourselves.

We need more people like you.

Thoughtful and thinking.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatowill*
Chicken pox stays in your body forever and can keep flaring up as shingles throughout your life. My mother gets it frequently.

Yes, and you can get shingles from either having the actual disease or getting the vaccine...take your pick.

Quote:

Also my doctor mentioned that the cases of chicken pox that go to the hospital can have the added complication of flesh eating disease.








I have never heard of this ever before...Your doctor is using scare tactics and you should ask him for verification...

Quote:

I discuss the vaxes with my doctor before giving them.
Good. Still, ask for the package inserts and keep them in a safe place.

Quote:

I am not taking anyone's position lightly. I know I will not change anyone's mind and other statisitcs can be brought forward. I just wanted to put insight into a small part of what information I use when making my decision to vax.


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## frolick16 (Feb 10, 2004)

We try to eat organic 100% of the time $$$ and availability are factors and we do not vax (though my 6 and 11 year old are, unfortunately, vaxxed) Does anyone have the link to the man that was offering $20,000 to any doctor or pharmaceuticals ceo who would drink a dose of vaxxs?


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## Mama2Mila (Jun 27, 2002)

We try to eat organic/unprocessed most of the time and my DD is fully vaxed (was on a delayed schedule). My DS will be vaxed on a delayed schedule also.

Alex


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gitti*

Then how come in countries where they don't push vaccines and the people are well off, such as Europeans, kids are not dying in droves?


I just wanted to comment this little part of your post, Gitti:

I am a European. A Norwegian. And here in Norway more or less everyone vaccinates their children. I think it`s something like 98%.

If you don`t, you will definately have to defend your view to your doctor, but he/she ofcourse have to respect your choice in the end. So atleast in THIS European country they DO push vaccines.

What IS better here, is that our children never get more than 1 shot at the time, and that the totalt number of shots is 6. And I am pretty sure there is something in American vaccines that is not in ours. I have read this, but don`t remeber exactly what it was. It was something that was used here in Norway before, but that is now taken out of the vaccines. Can it possibly be mercury?

I am not sure.. Sorry.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
...
What IS better here, is that our children never get more than 1 shot at the time, and that the totalt number of shots is 6. And I am pretty sure there is something in American vaccines that is not in ours. I have read this, but don`t remeber exactly what it was. It was something that was used here in Norway before, but that is now taken out of the vaccines. Can it possibly be mercury?

I am not sure.. Sorry.









Oh, good to see someone from Norway. I love that country. So clean and friendly.

6 shots! Our kids get anywhere from 32 upwards.

That's what I meant. Most European countries do not have the vaccine mandate that we have here in the US.

The pharma conglomerate pushes vaccines, brainwashes your physicians and uses the general propaganda, but you do not have the mandate that we have here in the US.

I have relatives in Germany/Switzerland and they do not have to show any proof of vaccinating when their kids start Kindergarten. It is left up to the parents.

My relatives in Switzerland say it is not unusual for a doctor to sign a vaccine passport if a parent requests it for some reason, and yet never even vaccinate the child.

The German constitution is very clear on that. It is forbidden that vaccines will ever again become law. I don't remember the details as to why, I believe it had something to do with smallpox vaccine that created an epidemic may years past.

Whe you look at the laws in Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, EU, and some others, there is no vaccine that are required. France requires something like 3 vaccines total, so do some other countries. Italy is the most vaccinated besides the former Eastern Europe. Russia has a very forceful vaccine program and yet they have diphtheria epidemics. They also have the most vaccine damaged kids although they have taken mercury out of vaccines ca 10 yrs ago.

Also in every study that is done in those countries it is always noted that we can not really compare them with our vaccine program since the initial vaccination starts at a later age and results in fewer boosters. Most are given in smaller doses and one at a time. There is NO comparison to what is being injected into our kids in the US.

Also Mercury was taken out of all childhood vaccines in Europe ca 10 yrs ago.

To me, most European countries are way ahead of us. The Scandinavian countries especially. Norway being probably the top of all of them.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Gitti, that was really interesting. I'm in the UK, & I think the situation here sounds pretty similar to that in Norway. I didn't realise the situation was so different in the States. You've enlightened me!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

We are an organic only family and do not vaccinate.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Here is the U.S vax schedule, for those outside the U.S.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/recs/child-schedule.PDF

Realize that many of these "shots" are mulyiple vaccines, delivered all in one dose (MMR, for example).


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

WOW!!! I had no idea that other countries were recommending so many fewer vaccines than here!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

gah, the us lags behind w/ respect to our citizen's health in so many areas.









thank you for the information.

breathless, just so you know, many of the combo vax's can be ordered as separates. (fwiw.)

//nak


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Wow....









I never knew the difference between Norwegian practises and American was so enormous....

You are totally right, Gitti. Norway does not push vaccines the way the US does. Not at all.


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## chanale (May 6, 2004)

DH and I eat 99% organic, and our 6 m.o. is non-vaxed.


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

We eat organic and are switching over to vegetarianism. I stopped vac'ing at 12 months and will never vacc again.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

We don't have children yet. We'll be trying in about a year, I've been planning for years.

I want to breastfeed, co-sleep, cloth diaper, etc.

We eat organic fruit, veggies, eggs, beans, oatmeal and coffee/tea. Organic milk is too expensive for us, but, we don't have growth hormones in our milk in Canada, so, I'm not really worried.

We eat wild salmon and grain fed chicken. We eat grass-fed Emu and Deer about once a month. I eat a lot of seeds and nuts, trying to get DH to do the same.







Our babies will eat the same things we eat when they can have solids.

I use only natural cleaners and shampoos/soaps, etc.

We'll be selectively vaccinating and delaying the first ones. I wouldn't like the idea that my children would be at risk of contracting preventable diseases, so, our babies will get the same ones that we got as children. The biggies. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, etc. Do they still vaccinate for polio? They won't get the flu shot or the newer unproven ones.

We rarely vaccinate our cats, but, once we're back out in the country (where they can go outside) we'll be getting them boosters, so, I do understand the science, I just think we can go overboard with them.

Interesting question!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
They won't get the flu shot or the newer unproven ones.

What do you base proven on? Just curious. Oh, yes, they do still vaccinate for polio. I hope that you do know that just because a child was vaccinated doesn't mean that they are 100% protected and will never get that disease. Just ask all the mamas of vaccinated children who have gotten Whooping Cough in the last couple years.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Unproven as in, doctors and scientists have no idea if it works, such as the feline leukaemia and FIV shots for cats. I was getting my cats and future kids mixed up.

If there are shots like those for babies I won't be getting them.

Yes, they can still get the diseases, but it's rare. I don't think the polio vaccine and the near elimination of polio are a coincidence.

Here's the sched for Canada; I just looked it up:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/...4/23s4e_e.html

They won't get the flu shot and they won't get the Hep B until they are older, that's when I got mine.

I'll delay them and do them one at a time too.

They stopped using thermisol (mercury) in Canada years ago, but, I'll still keep the insert. And, well, there's lots of formaldehyde in nail polish, and it's added to some breads too, so, I'll run that risk and get them vaccinated against things that will definitely hurt them if they catch them.

Again, very interesting topic.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
If there are shots like those for babies I won't be getting them.

Most recently being Pertussis.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Yes, they can still get the diseases, but it's rare. I don't think the polio vaccine and the near elimination of polio are a coincidence.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
they won't get the Hep B until they are older, that's when I got mine.

As did I, and now I get to live the rest of my days out with colitis. I suggest checking out this video for pure facts: *VACCINES - What CDC Documents and Science Reveal*

Here's another thread with lots of info and links to facts: *But we all turned out ok*

I am not trying to get into an argument, nor am I trying to tell you that your should change your mind. What I do fear, based on your comments, is that you may be under some false impressions about vaccines though.


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Unproven as in, doctors and scientists have no idea if it works, such as the feline leukaemia and FIV shots for cats. I was getting my cats and future kids mixed up.

FTR, vaccines are unproven. There has never been a study to prove that they actually work and there never wil be. Why? Thats a good question!!

Quote:

If there are shots like those for babies I won't be getting them.
Good! Then your kids will be unvacc'ed

Quote:

Yes, they can still get the diseases, but it's rare. I don't think the polio vaccine and the near elimination of polio are a coincidence.
If you vacc your kids then they definitely won't get polio or pertussis or anything. The doc will call it Bronchitis or something else instead...

Quote:

I'll delay them and do them one at a time too.
Thats good news.









Quote:

They stopped using thermisol (mercury) in Canada years ago, but, I'll still keep the insert.
How sure about that are you? The Pharms were not required to stop using themerisol they were just politely asked to do the right thing. There was never a recall either.

Quote:

Again, very interesting topic.
Yep it is very intersting and definitely worth discussing and researching for all of us.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

:


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Ditto







:


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Unproven as in, doctors and scientists have no idea if it works, such as the feline leukaemia and FIV shots for cats. I was getting my cats and future kids mixed up.

If there are shots like those for babies I won't be getting them.

Yes, they can still get the diseases, but it's rare. *I don't think the polio vaccine and the near elimination of polio are a coincidence.*

Here's the sched for Canada; I just looked it up:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/...4/23s4e_e.html

They won't get the flu shot and they won't get the Hep B until they are older, that's when I got mine.

I'll delay them and do them one at a time too.

They stopped using thermisol (mercury) in Canada years ago, but, I'll still keep the insert. And, well, there's lots of formaldehyde in nail polish, and it's added to some breads too, so, I'll run that risk and get them vaccinated against things that will definitely hurt them if they catch them.

Again, very interesting topic.









OMG another mama here who actually chooses to put her faith in SCIENCE!!









thank you Trinnity!









// nak


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Okay, just so I am clear:

Do you folks not... see,/believe in/recognise the efficacy of vaccines? The very science of it I mean?

I can understand being wary of the preservatives in them, or the way they are cultured or timed, etc, (which is why I will reduce the amount and delay them) but, do you not see,/believe/recognise that the body responds to vaccines with antibodies, preventing the disease from taking hold in most cases?

...................................

And, yes, I'm sure that we're not using thermisol in Canada anymore. My doctor who teaches at a medschool told me that it was gone. And, my sister is in her second year of medschool and she said they stopped.

This is all stuff that I will read up on myself before having babies of course, just to make sure for sure.


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:

Do you folks not... see,/believe in/recognise the efficacy of vaccines? The very science of it I mean?
I'm a very science minded person actually. I'm very interested in biological anthropology and plan to get my masters in that eventually.

I don't think inferring that I must be some idiot with no regard for science is very good for the conversation.


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

Hi,








My first child was fully vax'd before I knew better, my second child was partially vax'd because he started having massive reactions, my third child was also partially vax'd because he had massive reactions and we finally clued in on WHY they were having reactions... hence why my fourth child is NOT vax'd at all and never will be.

We eat 90% organic and natural or whole foods on everything else... nothing with colorings, additives or preservatives etc.

My 3 oldest children have all been sick with various ailments from previous vaccinations....asthma, over-growth of tonsils requiring their removal, chronic ear infections, skin peeling on feet and hands till they were bloody, respiratory infections, ADHD and sensory integration dysfunction...... I will never vaccinate again!









I tell everyone I can to RESEARCH before they vaccinate.....I wish I could go back and undo the damage done to my children.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

There are still TRACE amounts in vaccines. They use it in the manufacturing and then "take it out" but leave trace amounts (got that from the CDC website). On top of that there is KNOWN carginogenic ingredients as well as nuero toxins and blood toxicants.

I'd rather have measles (mumps, rubella, pertussis, CP, etc) than cancer ANYDAY.

I do not see the science in vaccines either. When they started vaccinating they go in clean up the population, teach them hygeine, clean the water, feed the people.... and then vaccinate and then give the vaccine all the credit. If vaccines were proven to work then vaccinated people would not be catching these diseases still but they do. Like in central Africa where they were doing door to door campaigning with the oral polio vaccine......it's not helping. Why? When the people are malnourished and dont have clean water or proper sewage, polio is going to keep spreading (ESPECIALLY after being given a LIVE vaccine).


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*







OMG another mama here who actually chooses to put her faith in SCIENCE!!









thank you Trinnity!









// nak

I learned a long time ago not to put my faith in ANYONE who stands to gain monetarily from it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
I don't think inferring that I must be some idiot with no regard for science is very good for the conversation.









No, it's definitely not.
Let's play nice here and not wreck what he going here. I think we are all basing our decisions on science. We are just obviously on different sides. Seriously now, who would gain anything by lying about the dangers of vaccines and having half the world croak off if these diseases were all so immenantly fatal, as they say?


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Organic & no vax here.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Not once did I say anyone was an idiot. I thought I was being civil, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

As I said, I can relate to the concern over the additives in a vaccine, and to the timing and frequency of them, I'm careful about what I put into my system, but to say that the body doesn't respond to invasion with inoculation is a bit much for me.

This is close to home for me right now too because I need to have a blood titre done to see if I have chicken pox antibodies. I didn't have it as a child, and, I can't risk catching it when I get pregnant, so, I'll need to get vaccinated against it. My mother tried giving it to us as children, but it didn't work. My sister got it as an adult, so, I doubt I have immunity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4170387.stm

So, we've been doing such a good job providing clean drinking water to people that the WHO has managed to slash worldwide polio cases from 350 THOUSAND to 1,185? That's a pretty dramatic drop in numbers over 17 years.

I thought that the world was having great difficulty providing people with clean water, yet, aid workers have nearly wiped out this crippling and deadly disease. And where are they having a relapse? In countries who have banned the vaccine because of fears that the West is trying to kill off African children though the vaccinations.

I've listened to plenty of people claim to be "science-minded" and then say that the T-Rex was a vegetarian because all beasts ate no flesh before the flood in the Bible and that we all suddenly sprang up from dust ten thousand years ago.

If you have religious opposition to vaccination, then, well, there's not really much I can say to that. Your beliefs are your beliefs.

But, if you really question the science of vaccination, you're going to have to provide more proof that they don't work other than the apparent global spread of clean drinking water.

Again, I understand the concerns over the preservatives and the cultures of the vaccinations, along with the sheer volume we seem to be pumping kids full of, which is why I'm going to scale things down - but to say that the polio vaccine isn't responsible for the near eradication of polio doesn't make any sense.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Ideally we eat organic (in practice since my car accident, we are at the mercy of whatever our moms cook), and will never vax.

Quote:

OMG another mama here who actually chooses to put her faith in SCIENCE!!
Seems she's putting her faith in other people's belief systems masquerading as science. Not insulting her or anyone - we've all done it. But I personally am no longer confused by other people's agendas - even if they sound really official and all.

BTW, I've never met a REAL scientist (without personal agenda regarding vax) who thinks they are remotely sound scientific practice. Starting with the fact that the gold standard of scientific process is double-blind study. There have been *NO* such studies of vax for either safety or efficacy. They've been around long enough to have come up with a well-constructed study, but no dice.

Science?? Not according to any sound scientific practice I'm aware of. But of course, any scientist or doc who dares mention that is immediately slandered and labeled "quack".









I do, for example, really have a hard time swallowing the idea that vaxes can give immunity for diseases that the disease itseft doesn't give immunity! How exactly does that work?? Yet that is passed for "science" too...


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## sarahariz (Aug 15, 2004)

We buy and eat organic food-but we do occasionally eat out in restaurants that don't serve organic food. I wish there were more that did. We are not vaccinating our 9 mo old. There are so many chemicals in vaccines, even if you forget the thimerosal-formaldehyde, aluminum, etc see
http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/foru...gredients.html

I liked this article for those who wish to vaccinate:
http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/29/v...n_schedule.htm


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Regarding the polio outbreaks...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...TL&type=health

Quote:

The Yemeni children found to have polio, from 18 months to 7 years old, all are in the Red Sea port of Al Hudaida and first showed signs of paralysis in February or early March, said Dr. Mohamed H. Wahdan, the WHO's Eastern Mediterranean polio coordinator. In poor countries, it can take weeks to confirm a polio case because stool samples must be sent to distant laboratories.

*All the children had been vaccinated, Wahdan said, but apparently not enough times. In countries with hot weather, open sewers and many intestinal viruses, it can take six to eight doses of vaccine to produce the same immunity that three or four do in cooler, cleaner countries.*
Yep they had been vaccinated. Apparently the vaccines dont work in communities with filthy water. Hmmm I wonder why??????

Always look a little deeper.


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## Mama Lori (Mar 11, 2002)

We eat organic as much as we can afford, and we do not vax. However, to me, the issue of eating organic vs. non-organic is pretty simple - organic is clearly better (or at least most can agree it's not worse), it's just a matter of being able to afford it or not (and in many cases we cannot). The whole vaccination issue is extremely complicated in comparison, which is why I don't think it makes any sense to put these two issues together. If food contains nasty additives it's easy to say "no I don't want to eat that, because there is natural food available that is better for me", but if vaccines contain nasty additives, it's a whole different question of what the alternatives are - such as, are you making your child more succeptible to certain diseases, etc. Obviously we are all trying to do what is best for our children with what knowledge and resources we have available to us, and I don't think you can really logically compare the organic food issue to the vaccination issue.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

The medical defination of polio changed in 1955. Prior to 1955, polio, aseptic meningitis, and cocksackie virus were all recorded as polio. After 1955 they were recorded as separate diseases.

While polio was going "down" cases of aseptic meningitis was going up (Los Angeles County Health index):

July 1955 (before the new defination): 273 cases of polio reported 50 cases of asceptic meningitis

July 1961 (after the new defination) 65 cases of polio/161 cases of asceptic meningitis

Sept 1966 (also after) 5 cases of polio but 256 cases of asceptic meningitis

Another factor in decline of polio is the use of DDT. Exposure to DDT causes polio like symptoms (which was sprayed around bodies of water for mosquitos). It was not banned until 1972. There are many other causes of polio LIKE symptoms, such as extreme Vit B deficiencies, etc.

Studies show that 95% of those exposed to polio wont exhibit any symptoms, even under epidemic conditions (Physicians Desk Reference, 55th edition, 2001 page 78.) 1 in 1000 of those who contract polio ended up with muscular paralysis. 999 did not.

Not to mention that over 100 million american children (and lots of others in other countries) who were given the OPV between 1955-1963 received vaccines contaminated with SV40, which is linked to brain, lung, bone cancers and leukemia. It is evident in the high cancer rates we see today.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Lori*
I don't think you can really logically compare the organic food issue to the vaccination issue.

Why not? Eating healthy is by far the best way protect the body from illnesses and disease. Apparently everyone just bases their logic on different things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Lori*
but if vaccines contain nasty additives, it's a whole different question of what the alternatives are - such as, are you making your child more succeptible to certain diseases, etc.

BUT, you cannot leave out all the tons more that they become succeptible to by choosing to vaccinate. It's a double edged sword, but I think the side of vaccinating is a lot sharper.

Either way, our conclusions are the same, we just got their on slightly different paths.


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## Mama Lori (Mar 11, 2002)

<<BUT, you cannot leave out all the tons more that they become succeptible to by choosing to vaccinate. It's a double edged sword, but I think the side of vaccinating is a lot sharper.>>
Right, I agree, which is exactly why I am saying the vaccine issue is far more complicated than the food issue. The organic question is an easy one and has mostly to do with what you can afford. I don't think very many people out there would argue that conventional is actually healthier for you than organic (though maybe I'm wrong, I don't know). With vaccines, I believe there are valid arguments on both sides, or at the very least, it is a complex issue (which anyone who has done the research knows).


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:



_quoted by *Klothos*_

yes they have a lot of nasty ingredients, but in such tiny amounts that there is very little risk associated with them... whereas not vaccinating carries the giant risk that your child might contract a nasty incurable disease.


I'm doing a case at the moment, and in front of me is a letter from an American cardiologist advising that her child, with a heart defect should not be vaccinated, because the aluminium in the vaccines is cardiotoxic, and the mercury in the flu vaccine could present additional problems as well.

When a cardiologist says something like that, then I'm very interested.

There is no disease on the immunisation schedule that is NOT curable. Contrary to conventional medical wisdom. Not vaccinating, does not carry a giant risk of dying from those diseases.

Were that so, you wouldn't have a family tree at all.

In terms of nutrition, this is hugely important Klothos. You need to access microbiology information on this.

Start with two older books. The first is called "Nutrition, Immunity and Infection Mechanisms of Interactions" by R. K. Chandra, and was published in America by Plenum press.

The second is another by the same author, no 12 in current topics of Immunology series, and should be available from your medical library.

its called "Immunology of Nutritional Disorders.

When you have read those two, then read the more recent ones by him, and others in the field. After that, do a pubmed search using critical nutrients and the immunological processes you know.

When you have finished all that you will understand that the key determinant of how a body reacts to any disease in normal day to day life, is nutrition. EXTRA stressors, which can step you outside of nutrition are war, famine and "pestilence".

When you've reaqd all that, go back over the history of USA, and do comparative graphs charting the influence of depressions, war etc, and compare that with death totals for immunable diseases.

Then chart obesity, junk food, sugar, and look at how they are now responsible for the first three of your death totals, because malnutrition doesn't just mean "not getting enough food". I can mean living your life eating garbage.

We can't, of course, blame nutrition of preventable medical error. Well, actually, maybe we could. Because if people ate properly all the time, then apart from accidents, and aberations caused by immunodeficiencies, they might not have been in the system in the first place, and placed themselves at risk of preventable medical error.

Mamatowill:

Quote:



I am vaxing partly due to the fact that many of my family members have had to live with the consequences of polio.


Yes, there is a genetic component to Polio. Dr V Wyatt's medical articles prove that. But Dr Sandler's book, also shows that those people who have a genetic susceptibility can avoid polio provided they never eat refined sugar or white flour. Part of that is also explained in Chandra's work, where he explains how sugar completely bombs in the cellular immune system for three hours each time you eat it.

Quote:



Also when I was doing my research one of the statistics which I found pointed out that 10% of people who contracted tetanus would still die- even with all of the current medical treatment and early diagnoses. The question I ask myself is which is the smaller risk to me- the vaccine or the disease.


The problem with the way you've worded that, is that it reads as if you have assumed that your child WILL get tetanus and therefore have a one in 10 chance of dying. If wounded soldiers, in Flanders (horse country) in the first world war, only had a 2 per 1,000 chance of gettting tetanus, why would you think your child would have much chance of getting it? Yes, its ubiquitous.... but my dad who was brought up in third world countries as a baby and child, and whose father was a horse breeder and racer, is 93. He's never had a tetanus shot in his life. To what should I attribute his old age? Good luck, or good management?

Quote:



If my child had been damaged or myself by vaccines that would definitely change that balance. Both sides carry risks.


Here is where you are right. Both sides carry risks. But it doesn't change the balance IMO. If your child gets a disease, your child is the 100% risk of getting that disease. the outcome will depend on your child's nutrition, immunological status and how you manage it, not "luck". And if your child is damaged from a vaccine, that risk is also 100%.

All the population based models for risk/benefit equations go right out the window in both scenarios.

Quote:



Plus i know one person mentioned chicken pox. Chicken pox stays in your body forever and can keep flaring up as shingles throughout your life. My mother gets it frequently. Also my doctor mentioned that the cases of chicken pox that go to the hospital can have the added complication of flesh eating disease. I discuss the vaxes with my doctor before giving them.


Can you explanin your reasoning please? The chickpox virus from the vaccine also stays in your body forever, and does exactly the same thing as chickenpox caught naturally. In fact, it's worse, because now there is a lot more shingles in children now, as a result of the vaccine.

So the argument could be made that had the child caught chickenpox naturally, then the immune system might have impounded the virus more effectively leading to fewer rebound outbreaks. Given by an "abnormal" route, the chickenpox vaccine doesn't alert the immune system the way it does when it has to come through the cellular immune system first.

As to the necrotising fasciitis with chickenpox, that's only a risk as I understand it, in a person who uses anti-pyretics to keep the fever down. Every single case that I've seen documented properly, where the person has had NF, the person used substantial quantities of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories or something like paracetamol, to keep the fever down. In which case, the NF is self-inflicted.

NF is also caused by normal skin bacteria (usually staph aureus) gone berserk. You also have to ask what the person has "done" to their skin and their immune system to have bacteria which is sitting on the ends of your fingers, right now, go berserk and try to kill them.

Trinitty:

Quote:



Okay, just so I am clear:

Do you folks not... see,/believe in/recognise the efficacy of vaccines? The very science of it I mean?


Okay, sorry if I'm thick.

Could you explain the science of it please? But before you do, please elaborate on what these scientists mean when they now admit that they don't know the "science" behind vaccines:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...al-2305100.php

*>>>>Vaccines work simply by producing antibodies, right? Well, probably not. And this misconception coupled with basic ignorance of how they do work is stalling the urgent quest for an AIDS vaccine, claim leading HIV researchers. They say no one has bothered to find out how highly successful vaccines like polio, measles and hepatitis B actually protect people from disease.<<< *

I notice they assume the highly successful nature of vaccines, without justifying the historical decline graphs, but that's another issue. I would just like to understand the "very science" of vaccines if possible.

Another quote from the above URL:

*>>>The assumption that successful vaccines work by simply producing antibodies is almost certainly wrong, Neal Nathanson, director of the US Office of AIDS Research, warns.

.....Even if researchers can plug these huge gaps in their basic understanding, they may face another obstacle in their pursuit of an AIDS vaccine. Inducing antibodies against HIV might, in the initial stages of infection, do more harm than good, claims Ron Montelaro of the University of Pittsburgh. <<<< *

And this one on 11 February 2005 here:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/...0825201.htm?1c

*<<<<Even for diseases that have vaccines, scientists don't understand completely how the vaccines work or how they might be improved. Scientists at the institute seek answers.>>>> *

If they don't understand how vaccines work, how can they make "safer" vaccines? Seems an oxymoron to me. Also, when I read paediatric immunology text books, I notice that they don't really understand how a baby's immune system works either.

So I wonder what the science is, of a vaccine that they don't know how it works, being put into a baby's immune system about which they are also unclear?









And when you've done explaining that, I'd be interested if you can suggest an explaination as to why it was that in spite of lovely high rubella titres from a vaccine, 12 weeks before my first pregnancy, I got rubella when I was 8 weeks pregnant?

Or the many other cases like me, in the medical literature.

Trinitty, why do you think you might not have immunity to chickenpox? I mean, you could be right, but research done in your own country shows this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Quote:



Most ten-year-old children with negative or unknown histories of chickenpox are immune.

Boulianne N, Duval B, De Serres G, Deceuninck G, Masse R, Couillard M.

Institut National de Sante Publique du Quebec, Quebec, Canada. [email protected]

To evaluate the proportion of children to vaccinate against varicella in a catch-up program targeting 9- to 10-year-old children, a study was conducted among children age 10 years to assess the age-specific incidence of varicella and document the immunity against varicella in those with negative or unknown chickenpox history. Of the latter 62% were seropositive for varicella.

PMID: 11734718 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


But given that the medical literature ALSO now says that "repeated chickenpox is more common than previously thought" your sister might also get it again. You never know.

As to the rest of your arguments, I could expand, but feel this is tome enough for this time.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)




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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

In terms of vaccines in foods, they've been at this one for ages.

Here is one of the latest URL's on the topic:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=343702005

Quote:

VACCINES against a whole range of diseases could be put into soft drinks and ordinary foodstuffs such as confectionery, fruit and yoghurt, according to a Scots scientist.

Dr John March, of the Moredun Research Institute near Edinburgh, is investigating a new method that allows vaccines to be administered orally rather than by injection.

This raises the prospect of immunising the general population with specially modified food - something which could be particularly useful in Third World countries with few health service facilities.

Currently, putting vaccines in food is not particularly effective because they are often destroyed in the stomach.

Dr March's method, which uses DNA vaccine in a harmless bacterial virus "container", has been shown to be more effective in early tests. He is hoping to trial a cancer vaccine within two years, as revealed in The Scotsman yesterday.
But there are many other "food" vaccines in the pipeline.

Already, they've done specific antigens in cows milk, others in hen's eggs, Hepatitis B in bananas and tomatoes.

they've also looked into vaccines in black-eyed beans

A parvovirus vaccine for dogs in cowpeas, and there are laboratories world wide looking at genetically engineering virus fragments into spinach and other vegetables.

Another one that has been developed is a cholera vaccine in potatoes, which they see has having huge potential in India.

the problem they have yet to resolve is the issue of "overdose" and resultant "auto-immunity".

they are also looking at what I call "designer" insects, one of which is using mosquitos as flying vaccine syringes.

I kid you not.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention a biotechnological company called ProdiGene in Texas which is creating and HIV-type genetically engineered vaccine in Maize.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now? :LOL

Seriously now, this is all absolutely awful and I hope it never happens, but I bet someone'll have an "accident" and it will. Do ya think a "designer" mosquito would just explode if it got the west nile virus?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now? :LOL









... nope

Quote:

Seriously now, this is all absolutely awful and I hope it never happens, but I bet someone'll have an "accident" and it will. Do ya think a "designer" mosquito would just explode if it got the west nile virus?
Does a mosquito explode when it gets malaria?


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

Does a mosquito explode when it gets malaria?
I could be wrong, but I think she is wondering what effect there would be if a designer mosquito carrying an immunization were to ALSO acquire the "wild" version of the disease it was meant to immunize against.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
I could be wrong, but I think she is wondering what effect there would be if a designer mosquito carrying an immunization were to ALSO acquire the "wild" version of the disease it was meant to immunize against.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Ok, can you guess what song is in my head now?

..._from the halls of Montezuma..._


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*







..._from the halls of Montezuma..._









....










I must be thick, but I have NO IDEA what y'all are yabberin on about!


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

The Marine hymn:
http://ingeb.org/songs/fromtheh.html


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

MT-







your posts!

Trinity, what province do you live in? I am in Ontario, and our vax schedule is diff from what you posted (I know all provs are diff). The one for ON is: http://www.publichealthgreybruce.on....sResources.htm


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow Brite*
MT-







your posts!

Trinity, what province do you live in? I am in Ontario, and our vax schedule is diff from what you posted (I know all provs are diff). The one for ON is: http://www.publichealthgreybruce.on....sResources.htm

Aren't they fantastic? Very impressive.

MT, I hope you aren't mad about the song in my head!!


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Aren't they fantastic? Very impressive.

MT, I hope you aren't mad about the song in my head!!










Yes I





















them! I actually get excited when I see her username b/c I know she'll have some amazing info


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I'm doing a case at the moment, and in front of me is a letter from an American cardiologist advising that her child, with a heart defect should not be vaccinated, because the aluminium in the vaccines is cardiotoxic, and the mercury in the flu vaccine could present additional problems as well.

When a cardiologist says something like that, then I'm very interested.

MT - You are amazing! I love reading your posts!!









Slightly OT, but I would love any direction you could give me on vaccines and children with heart conditions. My son has a slight condition, and I always felt in my gut that vaxes were a bad idea, for many reason, but also because of his heart. Do you know where I might find info about the cardiotoxicity of aluminum, other than the case you are working on?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

We eat mostly organic etc, I vaccinated my daughter for the first year but was very torn about the decision. I decided to because living in NYC I feel that we come in contact with so many people who could be carrying anything. After the first year though I just couldn't bear to continue so no more vax.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
We eat mostly organic etc, I vaccinated my daughter for the first year but was very torn about the decision. I decided to because living in NYC I feel that we come in contact with so many people who could be carrying anything. After the first year though I just couldn't bear to continue so no more vax.

Oh gosh, that must have been so hard for you. I couldn't imagine having to make that decision while living in NYC. It's scary enough while you researching it in the first place, but to be in the biggest city on top of that. You are a strong person to be able to do what you think is right in that situation.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I wasn't mad, tayndrewsmama
















when I hear the word montezuma, it usually means uncontrollable diarrhoea. Which is one of the reasons its slightly amended in the first part of my user name. In previous incarnations here, I was always accused of writing rambling tomes of verbal squirtage. The second part of my user name refers to a living fossil in the country I live in. Somehow the two together seemed somewhat appropriate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luvmyfamily*
Slightly OT, but I would love any direction you could give me on vaccines and children with heart conditions. My son has a slight condition, and I always felt in my gut that vaxes were a bad idea, for many reason, but also because of his heart. Do you know where I might find info about the cardiotoxicity of aluminum, other than the case you are working on?

I'm computerless at the moment, and having to access through internet. I have "operating system problems" on the computer.

The best way to find out about cardiotoxicity of aluminium, is to do a google search. The other thing you could do, is to PM me, and I'll give you the name of the cardiologist and you could "talk" to him about it. He's in your country, not mine.

On another note, I wonder where Klothos and the others have gone?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I wasn't mad, tayndrewsmama


























Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
On another note, I wonder where Klothos and the others have gone?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i've been keeping up with this thread, and attempting to construct a reply that wasn't pure snark.


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## counterGOPI (Jan 22, 2005)

i personally dont want my baby to get vaccinated b/c the drugs have animal ingredients and were tested on animals BUT i may have to b/c we plan on traveling to India a lot and children are more likely to pick up diseases there than adults. im trying to find alteratives though,any suggestions?

oh, hee,hee and right now were not eating organic b/c organis doesnt exist in korea but once we get back to the states we are having our own garden wich will,of course,be organic


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i've been keeping up with this thread, and attempting to construct a reply that wasn't *pure snark.*









:

:ignore:


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*







:

:ignore:

I was wondering how long that would take! :LOL


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *counterGOPI*
i personally dont want my baby to get vaccinated b/c the drugs have animal ingredients and were tested on animals BUT i may have to b/c we plan on traveling to India a lot and children are more likely to pick up diseases there than adults. im trying to find alteratives though,any suggestions?

Yeah. The ones my unvaccinated kids use when trolling through skanky countries like this. Take raw garlic and red chillie and pound equal quantities together in a clean mortar and pestle. Take a ball the amount of your tiny fingernail morning and night, washed/swallowed down with whatever. Works very well. And take plenty of vitamin C, common sense, a basic first aid kit with quality useful drugs, and your own syringes and disposable needles. But above all, remember than cleanliness is your best first defence, allowing the immune system to do what its designed to, the next, and knowing what to do if your child gets sick, the third. They key is not to get wrapped up in Pathogen Paranoia, and remember that India has a lot of very old people, who live very well, and who have never bought into the immunisation paradigm. I mean, lets face it. India was well over-run before vaccines came around to their country...

Quote:

oh, hee,hee and right now were not eating organic b/c organis doesnt exist in korea but once we get back to the states we are having our own garden wich will,of course,be organic








I disagree. I had friends there for two years, and they bought all their stuff organic. Mind you, they didn't live on a US base....


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I was wondering how long that would take! :LOL

Well, I *was* waiting for a good scientific reply, and rational discussion actually.... though if my last attempted discussion with the male head-honcho doyen of British Infectious Diseases the paragon of he who is supposed to know all about all things that affect the immune response, on the same topic on BMJ e-responses is anything to go by a few months ago, it might not happen.

Said doyen admitted to a colleague, who sneaked a response to me, that it wasn't possible to reply to my posts, because everything I'd posted as references, he'd not read. Yet he considers himself the "final word" on the subject?!!!







So months later, I'm still waiting.

All the immunologists on that discussion also didn't return.







I was so disappointed. They of all people would have made good expositions on Chandra's work, and subsequent texts.

I do hope they are all frantically reading.
















Then maybe all we BMJ verbalists can get down to some constructive immunology together.... you never know. I mean. Pigs might fly, and perhaps we can make the world a better place for all the sick people who don't need to be....


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Pigs might fly, and perhaps we can make the world a better place for all the sick people who don't need to be....

Oh I hope so! Dd and ds would love to see flying pigs!! :LOL Oh yeah, and all that good stuff about people not being sick.

It seems to have gotten quite quiet around here, debate-wise atleast. _(note: that wasn't an invite for snarkyness :LOL)_


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Someone once said that I've a degree in thread killing







:


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

this isn't dead yet!! So, where did you learn all this? What are your "credentials"?

It'll come back to life, one way or another! Hopefully for the better though.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

on the subject of actual science behind vaccinations ~ i'm majoring in microbiology, so i've been exposed to, well, quite a lot of it.

and about never meeting scientists or doctors who support vaccinations without being supported by pharmaceutical industry money ~ well, you just haven't really been looking. i've met 3 just in the past four months (spring semester







).


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## JBug (Sep 26, 2002)

Well, I don't think this is the direction that this thread is going anymore, but we're vegans who try to eat as much whole, organic food as possible (depending on availablility and affordability), and we do not vax our kids.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
on the subject of actual science behind vaccinations ~ i'm majoring in microbiology, so i've been exposed to, well, quite a lot of it.

and about never meeting scientists or doctors who support vaccinations without being supported by pharmaceutical industry money ~ well, you just haven't really been looking. i've met 3 just in the past four months (spring semester







).

I am sure that you are in a better position to find these people, studying microbiology and all. Can you direct the rest of us to the independent studies that these three are basing their opinions on? I would really like to see them. It is rare (if at all) that any pro-vax studies are funded by independent researchers and not pharmaceutical companies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBug*
Well, I don't think this is the direction that this thread is going anymore, but we're vegans who try to eat as much whole, organic food as possible (depending on availablility and affordability), and we do not vax our kids.

It may not be, but I still want to get a bigger picture. Thanks for still putting your two cents in!!!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
So, where did you learn all this? What are your "credentials"?

The issue here, is the issue, not credentials.

In a case I did in USA a few years ago, the "experts" for the State were two CDC top epidemiologists. The "expert" for the defence was a top independent doctor, with letters crawling down the length of your arm.

All three of them were W-R-O-N-G. Once their arguments were trashed in front of their eyes, and they patently, blindingly obvious answer from the hospital filed not only shown, but extrapolated using all the medical literature available, all three experts were proven to not be woth the credentials on their bits of paper.

And the Judge, a woman too, must have wondered on what basis medicine is actually practiced in this country.

So my creditials, or Klothos's credentials, or even Paul Offit's credentials mean nothing to me.

Because an expert is and "ex" (a has been) and a spurt (drip under pressure). Only when what they say and what happens actually line up, are their credentials even worth tuppence.

And even then, those credentials are only worth anything on that case, because tomorrow, they might strike a new one (as might I) that they know absolutely nothing about no matter the letters after their names.

Life is a learning process. Credentials supposedly mean we have the ability to think, but actually, that IMO, is an oxymoron in certain branches of the medical profession. There are certain areas where doctors must not think, for if they do, they would realise how ludicrous a lot of what they say actually is.

Anyway, I've spent far too much time here. I don't feel I have anything more to say on the subject, because anyone really interested in the issue will read the medical literature and books on the subject, and won't need to ask any further questions, or discuss the issue, because the answers are *self evident* to anyone with eyes to see with.

Right now, I have to go help prepare a brief to help someone medical with credentials not have them removed, because they dared to think outside the square and support parents in not availing themselves of another current sabre toothed tiger paradigm. For which said MD is now now in front of a court for behaviour, which is supposedly "unprofessional".

The whole case is ludicrous, but its all part of the intimidation garbage that the PTB use to waste time, money, emotional energy and get rid of a "nuisance". That's what happens when and MD objectively analyses an issue, and support the right to chose. That's why its so dangerous for doctors to think these days.

So, must away. Lots of work to do.

See you around when my head comes back out of the hole.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Ummm, MT, I was joking around.







:


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## HaveWool~Will Felt (Apr 26, 2004)

Yes, I do eat organic/natural foods and my children are partial vaccinated....


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## cjbeach (Apr 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama*
We eat organic whenever I can get it ... we live in a small town so it's hard to do. I do like to travel to a Whole Foods once a month or so, but it's two hours away.

Alex was fully vaxed ... he's now on the Autistic spectrum. Was it connected? I'll never know. My next child will be selectively vaxed with delays.

DITTO

4 yo DS was fully vaxed up until 17 mos when he had a reaction and speech stopped (what little he had at 17 mos). He started in Early Intervention at 19 mos, dx'd as being on the spectrum at 35 months. Now in behavior mod and homeschooled. 2 yo DD was supposed to not be vax'd but was vax'd at birth unfortunately for HepB (grrrr) and rec'd her 2 and 4 mos then we stopped. baby #3 will not be vax'd.

We eat prob more organic now because of DS and having be GFCF and "as clean as possible."


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Ummm, MT, I was joking around.







:

Yeah, I know you were.























But see, the issue here is that for others people pulling out their qualifications seems to mean everything.

Yesterday in the paper was this article about Condalisa Rice or however you spell her name.

They were talking about how well she dresses and how much credibility that gives her. I was thinking about how it would be if someone with impeccable facts and absolutely 100% correct information, would turn up at a media do in jeans and a slouch shirt.

Would the media take one look at them and decide that because of their clothes they had nothing useful to say, and were discreditted?

Absolutely. Because in the world we live in, it seems that its the clothes, the make-up, the wall paper, the street you live in, the car you drive, the shoes you wear, and the accessories (like the prize bull ribbons you see around baby's heads these days) that appear to matter most.

The superstructure under all that can be as crap as you like, but so long as you have the right "letters and looks" then you will be believed.

Its a sad, but true indictment on life today.

And that, sadly, is what many mothers look for, when looking at immunisation information. Is it presented nicely, on a glossy up-market brochure? Does it have the right letters oozing from the corners? Is it from the "right" sources?

When all that just might be for show, and have no substance....

No need to hide under a chair my dear.


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## einalems (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
What do you base proven on? Just curious. Oh, yes, they do still vaccinate for polio. I hope that you do know that just because a child was vaccinated doesn't mean that they are 100% protected and will never get that disease. Just ask all the mamas of vaccinated children who have gotten Whooping Cough in the last couple years.


Ohh, ooh. Meee! Both my babies had Whooping Cough last summer. My 3yo DD (fully vaxed) and 8 mo DS (no vax). Hmmm.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I am so sorry. That must have been really hard, especially with your littlest one. But, ya know, your youngest must have ruined the "herd immunity". :LOL Whatever, that's a bunch of junk. Hope they are doing great now!!!


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Yes my dd had gotten her pertussis/whooping cough vax (I'm not sure how many there are, but she at least had one. We are on a delayed/modified schedule) and there was a case at her preschool. That's when I learned vaxing does not prevent it. If you are really exposed, you hopefully just get a milder case of it.


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## Alvie (Mar 14, 2005)

WOW!
I've just sat and read this WHOLE thread with much interest....we eat organic about 50% of the time (I would eat more organic if we could afford it!) and NO vaccines here either.
I had the pleasure of completeing a practitioners diploma in Natural Nutrition in London, England a few years back. It was based on holistic, naturopathic lines and our teacher (the founder of the college) who has been in her profession for 40+ years, first as a nurse (in the hospital that invented antibiotics!) and then as a practicing nutritionist. She has treated hundereds of people, and can first handedly attest to the dangers of vaccines.
She believes them to be hugely SUPPRESSIVE to our bodies natural mechanisims, and has seen time and time again cases of illnesses showing up after vaccines were administered...for example anorexia nervosa within 6 months of the BCG vaccine (a routine TB vaccine given to adolecents in the UK).

If you trace an individuals case history, and I have done this on numerous occasions, you can actually see the forms of suppressive treatments like antibiotic use, vaccines etc and the repercussions in their health picture. It will vary for each individual depending on their inherent weaknesses etc...

I could go on...not sure if anyone is still reading this thread...

anyway, I also learned not to live my life based on fear (what if...)
and to trust in the integrity of my body and to treat it with respect.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvie*
I could go on...not sure if anyone is still reading this thread...









: I am still here! Sounds like you have a lot to offer on these boards!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvie*
....I also learned not to live my life based on fear (what if...)
and to trust in the integrity of my body and to treat it with respect.

Me too!









PS: I'm still reading.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

We try to eat all organic. My dd is fully vaxed. My ds had been given only the first round when after that I stopped getting him vaxed because of a "feeling" I had. Then after more research on the web I became so confused. DH thinks that we should fully vax ds. I don't agree and so I haven't done anything. If anything I think I will selectively vax ds. There seems to be so many scare tactics with vax's used by the med profession. I just wish I could find some straight answers instead of only hearing absolutes like "don't vax!" or "don't question us, just vax!" When I hear an absolute I tend to wonder what someone is up to.


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

We eat organically/naturally as much as we can...

My dd1 is fully vaxxed, that was before I knew any better and before we ate naturally...

Dd2 is almost fully vaxxed with the exception of the third Prevnar







and her boosters which she won't be getting. We started getting into wating naturally then.

Dd 3 is not vaxxed with the exception of 2 hepB shots, I could kick myself now..







She won't be getting any more. Now we eat naturally as much as we can..


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)




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## tempestjewel (Apr 18, 2005)

:

DD was fed all almost entirely organics her first year of life, and I feel like







for not doing any vaccine reserach. She was vaxed through age 15 months, but no more. When I went to the doctor he admitted that you are basically playing games with probability. If I had understood what was in the shots or how they worked I would have started my research much sooner.

Unfortunately, like many others I meet, I never even knew there was another side to the vax issue. With organics, it just seemed like an obviously better choice, and information on organic foods versus conventional is widely publicized and available. Unfortunately, the vax debate does not seem to be the same way, so many are making uneducated choices out of ignorance like I did.

Interesting thread. I'm particularly curious if people who are vegetarians/vegans get immunizations cultured in animal cells? Of course, until about 2 months ago, I had no idea what was in the vaxes myself...


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

tempestjewelI feel like [IMG alt="" said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif[/IMG] for not doing any vaccine reserach...Unfortunately, like many others I meet, I never even knew there was another side to the vax issue.


Forgive me for picking and choosing which part of your quote to put in here...

I, too, didn't know until recently what was in vax's. It makes me so mad that I've fully vaxed my kids. My DH and I are in discussion right now about what we will do in the future.

As far as organic foods go, we eat them as much as possible...when we can afford it. We are changing our lifestyle very drastically, but I feel like it's worth it!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

We eat mostly organic foods, I'd say over 75%.

Both kids are selectively and delayed vax.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

just bumping up for some long-awaited answers....


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## tiikeri (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm sitting here nearly in tears because I have two fully vaccinated DDs. I just never knew the flip side and I trusted my docs. I'm still struggling with this, and I know DH will be firmly against NOT vaccinating. We skipped the "optional" shots (chicken pox), but did give youngest DD the flu shot last year (we won't be doing that again). We have recently turned to organic foods (as much as possible financially and within the limits of our geography). But I'm still a sucker for eating out!









Looks like I have some reading to do...it's all so overwhelming!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiikeri*
I'm sitting here nearly in tears because I have two fully vaccinated DDs. I just never knew the flip side and I trusted my docs. I'm still struggling with this, and I know DH will be firmly against NOT vaccinating. We skipped the "optional" shots (chicken pox), but did give youngest DD the flu shot last year (we won't be doing that again). We have recently turned to organic foods (as much as possible financially and within the limits of our geography). But I'm still a sucker for eating out!









Looks like I have some reading to do...it's all so overwhelming!









please don't cry. You can't look back, just forward now. Almost all of us trusted our docs at one time or another. Some just got to the root of things a little late. I am one of them. Dd was vaxed 'till a bad reaction at 6 months. Ds has none, thankfully. Welcome to MDC!!! There's plenty of information here for you. Both sides.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

Yes, we eat organic as much as possible and yes my kids are vaccinated.


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## allnaturalmama (Jul 25, 2005)

We converted from the SAD to a NT-style 100% organic diet about 15 mos ago. DS (#1) was fully vaxed by then. DD (#2) was up-to-date on her vaxes (to 9mos old), but we immediately stopped. DC (#3), due in Dec, will receive none, nada, zilcho, zero . . .


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## onthemove (Aug 5, 2004)

we eat organic/naturally whenever possible and do not vax. dd's are 5 and 2.5 and are very healthy.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

:


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## sweetpeasmom (Nov 20, 2003)

we eat as healthy as we can and as much organics as we can afford and no vaxes


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## momofelise (Apr 13, 2005)

organic and no vax


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## lemon (Dec 8, 2001)

We do healthy & organic, though not exclusively organic. We also vax. Not absolutely all vaxes but almost all of them.

I agree with the pp who said that she distrusts absolutist arguments.

I believe a lot of the anti-vax arguments. I believe in vaccine injury, for example, and the ruthlessness of pharmecutical companies in marketing their imperfectly tested & constantly "improved" products. I even believe that improved living conditions & medical care make many of the diseases we vax against not very dangerous for those of us living middle-class urban American lives.

But I do believe in herd immunity. And I do believe that vaccinations, however imperfect, are an important weapon in protecting the health of all the world's children. Someday, maybe, they won't be. Because we'll figure out something better. Eradicate poverty. Give decent health care to all. Make it so we don't have to use chemicals to prevent disease.

Maybe this is a weird reason, but seriously, this is why I vax. I do think I'm doing the right thing by my kid, but this bigger issue is always looming in my mind.


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## just6fish (Feb 28, 2005)

organic as much as possible, vax


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Organic -yes, Vax -no more
BTW, I talked to my doc about organic food and stuff and he said : well, if it makes you feel better but it's not going to make any difference and it's not really worth the expense. Also, when I asked about me not being able to walk, difficultly with speech etc. a week after the flu shot -he said it was a coincidence. Perhaps it was


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## Mama2Kayla (Feb 12, 2005)

We eat about 90% organic, and we don't vax. Well, she had her 2 month shots before I found MDC







, but that is it.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Wow, I haven't looked at this thread for a while! I didn't realise that people were still replying.

Since some posters had asked me what I based my "how vaccines work" thinking on, and I don't think I responded, it wasn't intended to be rude, I just forgot about the thread.

I can't be an expert in everything. I can't know everything. None of us can, that's why our diversified school system and market place are such vital aspects of our prosperous society.

There are people who study and think about and test and run experiments on these issues for lifetimes, and I am very thankful for that. When it comes to my child's health, I'm going to cautiously trust the science of medicine that makes sense to me.

To use birth for an example, I don't see pregnancy or birth as a medical situation in most cases. So, if my pregnancies are "normal" and my labour is going well, I want to deliver my babies at home, without drugs and with very minimal intervention from a midwife. This makes sense to me.

To use organic food as another example, I have seen what pesticides and herbicides do to bugs and weeds, they poison and retard their growth. Scientists and doctors (who understand microbiology better than I do) do say that they are harmful to pregnant women, foetuses and children. Scientists are also learning that organic food is more nutrient-dense. This makes sense to me, so, I try to eat organically for health reasons. I also eat organically for environmental reasons.

Knowing the very basics about the immune system, I took biology in high school and my sisters all have their degrees in science, the introduction of a pathogen to the bloodstream producing antibodies and immune system memory, makes sense to me.

Here are some links I found that explain the very basics better than I can:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vac...ORCESSL=false&

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1D25261C

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/final/immun/immun.htm

It's true that WHEN the Small Pox vaccine was developed it wasn't understood HOW it worked - it just worked. We know more about the immune system now, and we know HOW the vaccine works, that's how other vaccines were developed.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Trinitty, it sounds like you have read some basics. So, what do you think about the SV40 virus and cancer then?


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Can you remind me what that is?

I remember reading about that when this thread was first started, and I talked about it with the docs that I know.... and I can't remember where it went from there.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Can you remind me what that is?

I remember reading about that when this thread was first started, and I talked about it with the docs that I know.... and I can't remember where it went from there.

The SV40 virus is a simian virus that is known to cause cancer at a high rate and contaminated the polio vaccine from it's beginning up to the year 2000 and possibly still does.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Could you please post links for that?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

A good place to start is the book The Virus and The Vaccine. There's more info in there than any links would have.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemon*
Maybe this is a weird reason, but seriously, this is why I vax. I do think I'm doing the right thing by my kid, but this bigger issue is always looming in my mind.

I don't think the concept of "herd immunity" is a wierd reason at all! My reason for not vaccinating is along the same lines - although I think there are risks to the vaccines, it's the changes in the epidemiology of diseases and the potential longrun impact on humanity that is my biggest reason to not vaccinate.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

We eat a lot of organics (actually, we grow quite a bit of our food) and DD is fully vaxed, though we delayed some of them.

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but fears about the safety of the food are not the only reason people eat organic. I am actually not that concerned about the health effects of pesticides in my food, though I AM concerned about the health effects for those who apply them and/or drink water contaminated by them. My desire to buy organic food is much more about supporting a certain style of agriculture and about protecting the environment than fear about my family's health. As organics become more and more mainstream, this is getting interesting...at times I choose to support small local growers who may or may not be organic rather than organics from huge distant corporate farms thousands of miles away.


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