# what parts of NT do you disagree with?



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I know there are some people on here who have done tons of research on nutrition, so I thought I would take advantage of your knowledge







So...are there parts of NT you don't agree with based on research you have done? I'm trying to make my diet as healthy as it can possibly be, and before I make all the changes I feel I need to after reading NT, I would like to make sure they are all necessary--so I don't have to go through the whole process of making more changes again later!


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## Sweetiemommy (Jul 19, 2005)

One question I have about NT is whether we should be basing our diets on the hunter/gathering primitive lifestyle or an agricultural one. Certainly obtaining milk and grains requires a certain level of social evolution. I'm not exactly sure how they differentiate between these two.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I like NT a lot. I really appreciate some of the information on fermenting, sprouting and animal fats. But, I think she puts too much emphasis on grains and dairy.

Not that I think every person needs to or should exclude both! But many people do need to exclude one or both, and yet live extremely healthful lives. Grains and dairy are recent additions to our diets, evolutionarily (is that a word, or did I make it up?







) speaking. I don't think that either are neccisary at all. But, they are easy sources of nutrition that, if they are tolerated well by your body, can enrich your life. (Remember that food is about far more than providing nutritional input. It has deeply rooted social and emotional aspects, too.)

My feeling is that we need to start with a basis of a primitive, caveman type diet, then add on to that as best fits our physical and emotional needs. Studying what traditional cultures do to determine the best ways to supplement that caveman type diet is a good approach, which is where I find much of WAP's research to be great.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Yeah, I have more specific points, but I'll have to get out the book to be accurate. But I'm also feeling that it's heavy on dairy and grains. I don't know that we were really meant to eat grains...dairy I can buy in small amounts and properly perpared, the key is both. Small amounts (like MAYBE a serving a day) I'm still reforming my ideas on dairy, so I'll leave that to the more experienced ladies. Grains are a relatively new addition to our diets. If you're going to eat them they need to be soaked-I agree. But even then I don't do well on them. Alot of people don't. That said, there's alot of great info in that book. Absolutely worth the read.


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## nicolena (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:

But even then I don't do well on them.
How exactly don't you do well? I wonder if somehow I'm not doing well--but I want to be sure before I try to figure out how to lose sourdough, kwim?


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

Honestly, there's not too much in the book that I disagree with. I have found that I do okay with limited grains and legumes, but my huz on the other hand can eat them 'til the cows come home with no ill effects. I am dairy lover but have allergies so I gave dairy up until I found that raw dairy does not affect my allergies at all. The huz still can't do dairy aside from yogurt so he doesn't. I can't fault NT, really, we just do what works best for us.

I though that I would really like GoE better because it is so fruit and veggie focused but the recipes and meal plans don't really appeal and I think some of the science is not as well written or cited as the stuff from NT and WAPF.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Not much but I can't do grains or any sugars other than honey.

And I still have BIG issues with organ meats but that's just the former vegetarian me talking...


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

If I do grains I get all sluggish and bloaty. My natural rhythms (trying to be delicate here) get off and I get gassy. There's also some fatigue and mental ick that happens too. The more grains, the more depression. Someday...after lots of healing I may be able to do them, but I sure can't now. It's also not a priority for me because as of now I really don't think we were meant to eat them.


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## Pinky Tuscadero (Jul 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
And I still have BIG issues with organ meats but that's just the former vegetarian me talking...

I also have reservations about organ meats. It's my understanding that they filter out the toxins in our bodies. I don't know that we should eat the filters of other animals bodies. Sounds really icky put that way, doesn't it? I'm sure that cavemen ate the whole animal, just like in the Far Side cartoon, but there weren't as many toxic substances being filtered by the organs back then.
I'm also not convinced about all the fermenting since fermented things things give me migraines. Maybe I wouldn't get these headaches if everything was right in my body but... It's hard to know which came first.








I do think the stock thing is right on. Nothing cures you like real chicken soup! Much of the book is awesome but a few things leave me with questions. Like so many things, take what you like and leave the rest!
Suzy


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## mamajessica (Sep 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pinky Tuscadero*
I also have reservations about organ meats. It's my understanding that they filter out the toxins in our bodies. I don't know that we should eat the filters of other animals bodies. Sounds really icky put that way, doesn't it? I'm sure that cavemen ate the whole animal, just like in the Far Side cartoon, but there weren't as many toxic substances being filtered by the organs back then.









:
Times have changed since then. I have similar issues with GoE not necessarily being current. Disclaimer: I am a vegetarian.


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## just6fish (Feb 28, 2005)

I try to adapt as much of NT to my life as I can. I don't do organ meats and don't ferment much. I do the yogurt, raw milk, organic, and I try to soak my grains, but I don't do many grains.

The ONE problem I have with the NT BOOK is the section on breastfeeding and formula. I think Sally puts very little emphasis on breastfeeding, kinda like, 'well, if you can, do it'. I think it contradicts the whole point of the book! IMHO


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

ITA about the breastfeeding thing. It's one of the reasons I don't love Sally Fallon. I'm reserving my judgements on the research until I read WAP's stuff.


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## nicolena (Oct 10, 2005)

ita about the breastfeeding thing too--really disappoints me. thanks for explaining about the grains, firefaery. i'm just starting to see how sugar contributed to my depression/anxiety. i'm hoping grains aren't the next step--i'm just not ready. but depression lingers, very lightly tho. i'm hoping it's just being worn out and stuck inside (somewhat) with crazy toddler twins!

i can't begin to approach organ meats--i feel the same way--if the liver is supposed to filter bad things, doesn't it seem like bad things would be left in there? but i made beef stock with gross bones and have survived so far (my dogs are going to be so happy). but the frozen whole chicken might make a nightmare appearance before i deal with it. former vegetarian here too.

former anorexic, i might add. long ago, not too severe, but the thing about NT that is the hardest for me is believing butter is good for you. i don't disagree, but it's difficult for me. and whole fat milk (not to mention raw--which i haven't gotten yet, but hope to soon). i have to say that now that i understand homogenization, i'm looking forward to leaving it behind, but it grossed me out when my breast milk would separate in the fridge. hopefully i won't pass these issues onto my girls. but believing fat is good? that's hard. meanwhile, i'm eating yogurt with honey as dessert and using butter liberally--making up for lost time i guess. and no longer looking for the leanest beef. it all makes sense that we need fat, but low-fat is so ingrained in me. damn the diet dictocrats







!

(where can i find more on WAP and breastfeeding? in N&PD, it seems like all moms magically weaned at a year........)


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I agree with her soaking and sprouting suggestions, however I have problems with her recommendations about eating a lot of fats, dairy, and meat. The main thing that has turned me off of Fallon's book is her research. I recommend that you take a look at her footnotes and decide whether you feel *she* has done enough research. For example, in some of her claims about the right fats to eat (coconut good, canola bad), she cites studies from 1979, 1981, and 1982, and a conversation with Mary Enig (who may be knowledgeable, but that doesn't give me much comfort--where did Enig get her information?). Is that the most current research done on this topic? I think not. I'm not saying Fallon is wrong; I'm just not willing to trust what she says when IMHO much of her research and evidence seems lacking. Especially when what she says contradicts the majority of the current research (such as her emphasis on saturated fats). I've recently gotten Weston Price's book, which I hope will shed more light on these issues for me.

I should add that this is all my opinion based on the reading I've done and what I feel it right for my family; I'm in no way making judgements about anyone who follows and likes NT.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Re: WAPF and breastfeeding
As far as I understand it, WAPF is very pro-breastfeeding. It is natural and traditional. However, there is a very big caveat. The mother needs to be properly nourished in order to feed her baby optimally.

Articles:
Many on this page, esp. check out the "Breastfeeding Discussion" for a great letter from an ex-LLL leader: http://www.westonaprice.org/children/index.html
and this one:http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeat...rish-baby.html

Sally Fallon had difficulty breastfeeding, even despite eating a healthy diet. I don't know why, though some have theorized that it was because support was not all that great back in the 70's when she was breastfeeding (10 minutes a side, remember that? No wonder women didn't make "enough" milk!). She talks about her experience in the "Breastfeeding Saga" article.

And you know, seeing how wiped out I got during breastfeeding and not eating the best diet, I do agree that it is of extreme importance that a nursing mama's nutrition be top notch. Don't get me wrong, I Love Love Love La Leche League and what they do. I just think that in pursuit of trying to make breastfeeding accessible and easy for everyone to do, then some problems get overlooked. I would have appreciated a bit of nutritional support back when I was suffering so badly.

ETA: do a search in this forum (if the seach function has been fixed) for breastfeeding and nutrition. There was some discussion here as well as in the breastfeeding forum all about the subject of nutrition being very important for nursing mamas.

Found the link to nutrition/bf in the bf forum:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=343188


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Oh, and my personal complaints with NT are that she spends so much time emphasizing meat and fat that the poor vegetables get a much slighter mention. I personally think that it should be flipped around more like the Garden of Eating diet.

I do think organ meats are important, not only from a nutritional perspective but also from an environmental perspective. I think it is wasteful not to eat the whole beast.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

toraji, while I agree that the best option for feeding a baby is breastfed from a well-fed mother, I still believe that breastfed from a poorly fed mother is still superior to formula feeding. I don't like that Fallon disparages the milk of "poorly" fed mothers and emphasises artificial feeding in a way that seems to imply that formula could be an ideal choice even when the mother is able to breastfeed.


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## Bia (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:

I have problems with her recommendations about eating a lot of fats, dairy, and meat. The main thing that has turned me off of Fallon's book is her research. I recommend that you take a look at her footnotes and decide whether you feel *she* has done enough research. For example, in some of her claims about the right fats to eat (coconut good, canola bad), she cites studies from 1979, 1981, and 1982, and a conversation with Mary Enig (who may be knowledgeable, but that doesn't give me much comfort--where did Enig get her information?). Is that the most current research done on this topic? I think not. I'm not saying Fallon is wrong; I'm just not willing to trust what she says when IMHO much of her research and evidence seems lacking. Especially when what she says contradicts the majority of the current research (such as her emphasis on saturated fats).
There is plenty of research to back up her statements about fats. A few who have written books on the subject are Dr. Schwarzbein, Dr. Enig, Dr. Atkins. Or a very good book is The Modern Nutritional Diseases by Dr. Alice Ottoboni and Dr. Frank Ottoboni.


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## alybeans (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bia*
There is plenty of research to back up her statements about fats. A few who have written books on the subject are Dr. Schwarzbein, Dr. Enig, Dr. Atkins. Or a very good book is The Modern Nutritional Diseases by Dr. Alice Ottoboni and Dr. Frank Ottoboni.

Didn't Dr. Atkins have a heart attack? I haven't read NT, is it at all like Atkins? I've been considering reading it, even though I disagree with much of what I hear about it. Information is never a bad thing IMO.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

I have no problem believing her about fat. She explains how many fat soluble vitamins are in things like butter and whole milk products. I feel like butter is one of the most healthy things I eat. Butter and kale








Like many here, the breastfeeding thing is my biggest issue (I think). She totally projects her own breastfeeding issues on the rest of the population. And some of her homemade formulas seem kind of gross.
I just can't do the soaking thing either....except for the oatmeal and that is what sold me in the first place. I used to feel like I had a brick in my stomach after eating oatmeal- but soaked oatmeal is sooo good and digestable.
I guess the other thing I DON'T like is the heavy emphasis on meat. We eat so much meat and I don't feel like it's that great for us. I think it would be better for us to eat small portions of meat almost every day- like 4-5 oz. but not every single day.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

IMO (and I've read both) that Atkins is the cheesy standard american diet version of NT. HE doesnt' talk about traditional diets, or about the difference in pastured or even conventional versus organic meats. That said, if you were all Atkins, you'd have no issue going NT-it wouldn't have to be a dramatic change. You'd just shop in other places.


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

NT and Atkins are like comparing organic apples from your neighbor's orchard and mealy apples from the Odd Lot's bin. They have very little in common aside from a few surface ideas about fats and its affect on insulin.

IIRC Atkins died from a viral infection that attacked his cardiac muscle resulting in edema. It's not like he died choking on a chicken bone.

The breastfeeding stuff definitely gets to me, grrr. I have to say the more time I spend in both of Fallon's books NT and EFLF, I prefer the latter. Maybe because it's more user-friendly? I don't know...


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

I'm definitely intrigued by NT . . . just wondering thoug if you could make NT work without drinking raw milk (instead culturing it) and only eating salmon? Thanks!!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Lots of ladies who do it only do cultured or fermented dairy. I think just doing the fish (you may need more of a variety? I don't know) would be okay.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
toraji, while I agree that the best option for feeding a baby is breastfed from a well-fed mother, I still believe that breastfed from a poorly fed mother is still superior to formula feeding. I don't like that Fallon disparages the milk of "poorly" fed mothers and emphasises artificial feeding in a way that seems to imply that formula could be an ideal choice even when the mother is able to breastfeed.

Ok, here is where I'm going to don my flame-proof suit...

I have HUGE mama guilt for breastfeeding my DD with my previously deficient diet. At one point before we changed our diet, DH was suspecting early stages of rickets with DD. Then the horrible tooth decay happened. I strongly suspect that I was very vitamin D deficient, which of course made my milk deficient. Possibly b12 deficiency as well, as DD's toenails are oddly shaped.

Had she been on formula, it's anyone's guess if she would have been deficient in those particular vitamins. Would she have gotten tooth decay? I don't really know. She may have developed other horrible problems due to the formula.

This is not to say that I don't believe that breast is best, I firmly believe that it is. But I also strongly believe that there needs to be more information about the importance of nutrition for breastfeeding mamas. We tell pregnant mamas how important nutrition is, why can't we tell nursing mamas the same thing? I actually think it is MORE important for nursing mamas than pregnant mamas, as usually there are nutritional reserves enough to gestate whereas when you are nursing it just shoots out your breasts. JMHO.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
I do think organ meats are important, not only from a nutritional perspective but also from an environmental perspective. I think it is wasteful not to eat the whole beast.









I agree with you, I just have a problem getting it past my former veg lips... I WILL make those liver dumplings someday soon, that's my goal. If Firefaery can eat them I should be able to!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bia*
There is plenty of research to back up her statements about fats. A few who have written books on the subject are Dr. Schwarzbein, Dr. Enig, Dr. Atkins. Or a very good book is The Modern Nutritional Diseases by Dr. Alice Ottoboni and Dr. Frank Ottoboni.

and 'The Cholesterol Myths' by Uffe Ravnskov MD


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plantmama*
I guess the other thing I DON'T like is the heavy emphasis on meat. We eat so much meat and I don't feel like it's that great for us. I think it would be better for us to eat small portions of meat almost every day- like 4-5 oz. but not every single day.

Look at the diet recs for pg and bf'ing mothers:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children...ormothers.html

Meat is not a large part of the menu.

This quote emphasizes its the animals fats that are crucial, not the meat:

Quote:

The Foundation believes that strict vegetarianism (veganism) is detrimental to human health. *Vegetarianism that includes eggs and raw (unpasteurized) dairy products, organic vegetables and fruits, properly prepared whole grains, legumes, and nuts, and excludes unfermented soy products and processed foods, can be a healthy option for some people*. However, some people have difficulty assimilating vitamins, minerals, protein, and other factors from plant foods. These individuals may need a higher proportion of nutrients from animal foods to achieve optimum health.

See "The Vegetarian Tour" at WAPF: http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta*
I'm definitely intrigued by NT . . . just wondering thoug if you could make NT work without drinking raw milk (instead culturing it) and only eating salmon? Thanks!!

I would be concerned about the calcium issue and recommend bone broths everyday. Unless you want to whiz up the salmon bones in your food processor when you make salmon patties









Probably add shellfish too.

There were many native diets, especially the Pacific Islanders, who did not drink dairy and relied on seafoods instead.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Some more thoughts re: breastfeeding and nutrition after sleeping on it...

I don't want to get into my whole sob story, but when we switched our diet from very strict vegan to whole foods omni in the vein of NT, DD was pretty much strictly breastfeeding. I say "pretty much strictly" because she did put some food in her mouth, but only would lick it and spit it out.

After our diet changed, DD suddenly started growing. A lot. And started acting a lot more mentally chipper. To the point that I did not feel it was just a growth spurt or developmental milestone. And her tooth decay stopped spreading and getting bigger. At this point, my heart broke into a million pieces. I had been _starving_ my DD, despite breastfeeding on demand, any time and as much as she wanted.

And after seeing my friend's adopted son thrive and grow on organic formula supplemented with egg yolks and EFAs, I had to wonder what if?

Yes, I absolutely believe in breastfeeding. But I had to search long and hard to find information on nutrient levels in breast milk according to the mother's diet. There is so much push to just get mothers to breastfeed that it seems like dietary myths are promoted: it doesn't matter what you eat, your milk will be perfect! But mine was not. And I know I am only one anectdotal piece of evidence, but seeing how much things changed not only with my own health but with DD's health, I am absolutely convinced of the effect of diet on breastmilk composition and body health.

If you only read one thing on breastfeeding and nutrition off the WAPF website, please read the letter from the ex-LLL leader (2nd one down, called "Worn Out"): http://www.westonaprice.org/children...d_discuss.html


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta*
I'm definitely intrigued by NT . . . just wondering thoug if you could make NT work without drinking raw milk (instead culturing it) and only eating salmon? Thanks!!

I am currently dairy-free as it makes my nose stuff up, even the raw stuff. We don't have access to all-pastured raw milk here so DH and DD use the organic non-homogenized milk from the co-op to make yogurt and eat cultured organic butter.

I think just salmon would be fine but that would be according to your own body's needs. Some people have such terrible digestive systems that they need more energetic foods, my family actually noticed the most improvement in health with foods from large land mammals (cow and elk) over just fish or poultry alone. I have heard in Traditional Chinese Medicine that the larger land mammals are higher up energetically than the fish and birds.

But even just eating salmon, I think NT has a lot of useful information re: good fats and proper soaking of seeds.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Re: Atkins

From what I've heard there is a vast difference in the original Atkins recommendations vs. the store-food Atkins diet. Apparently the original rec's are a whole-food omni diet. There was a thread a while back which busted a lot of Atkins myths from people following the original recommendations.

I've never read the books though, so don't take my word for it.

ETA: never mind! Just re-read the posts on Atkins and realized that I was barking up the wrong tree. My apologies for making assumptions!


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

I'm so so excited to finally find a group of people who have read Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions.
I'm a big fan of Weston A Price and a lot of Sally Fallon's knowledge is based on his researh. If you have questions about NT, you must read "Nutrition and Physical Degenaration" by weston Price.
I must add that my dh graduated from Institute of Integrative Nutrition in NY and he is a certified holistic health practitioner. He've met Sally Fallon as she spoke in his school. He said that out of all speakers (and he had many such as Andrew Weils and Paul Pitchford), she impressed him the most. She was also the most vibrant, glowing and energetic.

Of course, most vegetarians will not be impressed by NT, but we agree with ALL parts of NT including organ meats, dairy and grains.

In terms of breastfeeding, I think that WAPF really supports it, but they are realistic about how the mother should eat to have optimal breastfeeding experience. The fact that I wasn't aware of that while I was nursing...I had so much trouble...I got a lot of support from LLL, but the nice woman who even came to my house to help never asked me what I was eating. Instead she was concentrating on what I shouldn't be eating (like gassy foods, dairy, etc). My dh kept telling me: take coconut oil, drink raw milk - I wish I listened.

Well anyway, exciting topic and I really enjoyed it.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Toraji- I was in the same boat. Dd wasn't thriving (she had other issues that were dietary-CD-plus some physical things) My VEGAN LC told me I was in trouble after seeing my milk. I had to pump exclusively at first because dd was tube-fed. She had me supplement with high doses of CLO and the composition of my milk visibly changed. It went from thin, skim like milk to actually having cream on the top. I had very poor quality milk even with a great vegan diet. Clearly if CLO could make that much of a difference then the foods you eat do as well. My LC actually took photos to show other clients.


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## sophiesue2 (Jan 15, 2005)

Something my mother keeps harping on....(though she's glad i'm no longer a veggie) is shellfish. She has a problem eating anything without an excretory system (probably a little bible dietary laws in that thinking). Anyone else not do shellfish for that reason?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
Toraji- I was in the same boat. Dd wasn't thriving (she had other issues that were dietary-CD-plus some physical things) My VEGAN LC told me I was in trouble after seeing my milk. I had to pump exclusively at first because dd was tube-fed. She had me supplement with high doses of CLO and the composition of my milk visibly changed. It went from thin, skim like milk to actually having cream on the top. I had very poor quality milk even with a great vegan diet. Clearly if CLO could make that much of a difference then the foods you eat do as well. My LC actually took photos to show other clients.

Wow, that's a good example for the the raw foodies.


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## Bia (Oct 21, 2004)

I didn't mean to start a tangent on the atkins controversy. I only mentioned him in reference to his research on fats. I was not recommending his diet (I have a huge problem with his take on artificial sweeteners). Hopefully, anyone who has a problem with the "Atkins" name will just ignore it and focus on the other names and books mentioned in this thread re: the saturated fat issue, because as I said, there are plenty of credible sources out there.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
Toraji- I was in the same boat. Dd wasn't thriving (she had other issues that were dietary-CD-plus some physical things) My VEGAN LC told me I was in trouble after seeing my milk. I had to pump exclusively at first because dd was tube-fed. She had me supplement with high doses of CLO and the composition of my milk visibly changed. It went from thin, skim like milk to actually having cream on the top. I had very poor quality milk even with a great vegan diet. Clearly if CLO could make that much of a difference then the foods you eat do as well. My LC actually took photos to show other clients.

Oh my! Thank you for sharing!


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## nicolena (Oct 10, 2005)

wow, toraji and firefaery--my story too. except i'm nursing twins--so even less to go around? i feel so guilty. i wish i'd known. luckily, something started me eating better in the past year, but the beginning was so bad--i was living on pop tarts and slimfast bars (not dieting, just thinking they were "healthy"--like a meal with vitamins







). they were meeting milestones, but below 3% on the charts. they did triple their weight by a year, but they started out so small.... i won't go on, but i have such guilt--maybe we should start our own thread....

they are 14 months now and i just gave them their first meat--the broth from my first NT stew (or should i say soup, sigh). they are nursing so much more lately--i wonder if it is because my diet has improved. i really feel like i starved them. i want to pump just to see what my milk looks like now. i was so lowfat before--there was cream on my milk, but not much. everything read online said lowfat was fine/good--just don't go below a certain level of calories. did i screw them up somehow? i can't shake the feeling..... or is this typical new mama angst?

sorry to go off.....


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

nicolena-when we know better, we do better. I was in such denial about it all that I truly believed that it wasn't my diet (how could it be?) that it was just a leaky gut. After doing a bunch of healing I WENT BACK to veganism. I was still (and am still) nursing dd. Since adding animal products back into our diets we are all doing better. Dd is sleeping and happy and growing and actually has an appetite. Ds is better too, though still not able to tolerate casein...we're working on that. I can't say that there is a definite difference in me all the time. Some days yes, some not really. But I'm sold. I won't be going back. I just make sure that I get animal products from farms where I feel good about their practices. All but the butter, I can't seem to find butter. Oh-and it's perfectly normal for your babes to be nursing more now. I'm sure that they are enjoying the changes immensely though!


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

sophiesue--we don't eat shellfish. Actually we use the Bible as a guide to sort out all the different dietary advice out there--if it contadicts the food info given in the Bible, I don't think it is correct. So we don't eat shellfish or pork. On the other hand, we don't have a problem with dairy or grain since it is evident that dairy products were used in the Bible and grain was clearly a dietary staple (although I realize that for some people today grain and dairy cause problems and should be avoided).

A whole lot of things nutritionally fell into place for me when I figured out that "natural" foods (butter, unprocessed foods, etc) were better for you than the current "healthy" foods (deli meats, low fat foods, margarine, etc). I think adding in the info from NT will help, too--I know just eating soaked oats for breakfast instead of oatmeal has made a big difference in my morning low-blood sugar after breakfast problem.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

It's very interesting . . . I was a vegan for about 4 years and had a completely vegan pregnancy. I have always been extremely conscientious about my diet. I only started to add back in eggs and CLO when ds was about 2 mos. because I started to feel in the pit of my stomach that veganism was not the ideal diet for a child. I felt like I'd be doing one huge experiment on ds by starting him off with a vegan diet and I was not prepared to do that. Not to mention that for years I've been dealing with horrible eyesight, persistent acne, painful periods, and intestinal/digestive problems--all things I though my vegan diet would rectify. The first sign that veganism might not be working for me was my hair loss) I am so ready to start on at least a modified NT pathway (excluding milk products because I know for a fact that my ancestors did not drink milk, eat butter or cheese). My only problem is the fact that ds is still a very strict vegan and the cooking of meat or fish is just not something he's willing to let me do at home. This makes NT close to impossible right now but I'm convinced that there is merit in it. I am also wary of getting all the way behind NT because at the time, veganism sounded like it was the true path to health and well being.

Well, from what you ladies have described, I am blessed and fortunate that ds is doing so well. He was born at 8 lbs. 1 oz. and has been off the charts in terms of growth weight wise and far ahead in length and has been meeting all his milestones. This is one reason dh doesn't see why I feel the need to change. I often wonder, though, if ds is too heavy at 6 mos. and 23 lbs. I've seen my milk and it's pretty creamy, though. I'm wondering if I am just relying on my stores and maybe I won't have anything left when I'm done nursing. I also wonder if my son's cranky disposition is as a result of my diet (he's very cranky!) I don't know . . .I've been obsessing over here as usual!

Anyway, good conversation. Lots of info!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

nicolena:







It does get better, I promise, though I cried a lot those early days.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicolena*
they are nursing so much more lately--i wonder if it is because my diet has improved.

DD did that too after the diet change. I had forgotten about that until now!


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## rgarlough (Jul 18, 2002)

As a avid reader of many books including some from Dr Atkins and most recently "Atkins for Life" he does stress the importance of ORGANIC, naturally raised meats, dairy and veggies. He also stressed the importance of supplements because of the deficiences in fruits/veggies/meats because of over farming = foods just aren't as nutrient packed anymore and its getting worse.

And this is an article on how he died:

Quote:

Best-Selling Diet Doctor Dies at 72

The Associated Press
April 17. 2003 12:09PM

Dr. Robert C. Atkins, whose best-selling low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet was dismissed as nutritional folly for years but was recently validated in some research, died Thursday, his spokesman said. He was 72.

Atkins died at New York Weill-Cornell Medical Center and was surrounded by his wife and close friends, said Richard Rothstein, his spokesman.

*Atkins suffered a severe head injury Tuesday after falling on an icy sidewalk while walking to work. Last April, Atkins was hospitalized for cardiac arrest, which he said was related to an infection of the heart and was not related to the diet.*

Atkins first advocated his unorthodox weight-loss plan - which emphasizes meat, eggs and cheese and discourages bread, rice and fruit - in his 1972 book, "Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution."

Its publication came at a time when the medical establishment was encouraging a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. The following year, the American Medical Association dismissed Atkins' diet as nutritional folly and Congress summoned him to Capitol Hill to defend the plan.

Labeling it "potentially dangerous," the AMA said the diet's scientific underpinning was "naive" and "biochemically incorrect." It scolded the book's publishers for promoting "bizarre concepts of nutrition and dieting."

Despite this, his books sold 15 million copies, and millions of people tried the diet. Atkins' philosophy enjoyed a resurgence in the 1990s with "Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution," which sold more than 10 million copies worldwide and spent five years on The New York Times best-seller list.

But criticism of the diet lingered, with many arguing that it could affect kidney function, raise cholesterol levels and deprive the dieter of important nutrients.

Atkins said no study showed that people with normal kidney function developed problems because of a high-protein diet, and he never gave in to his detractors.

Defending his plan at the American Dietetic Association's convention in 2000, Atkins quipped, "I'm very happy to be here. Not as happy as Daniel in the lion's den."

This year, his approach was vindicated in part by the very medical community that scorned him. In February, some half-dozen studies showed that people on the Atkins diet lost weight without compromising their health. The studies showed that Atkins dieters' cardiovascular risk factors and overall cholesterol profiles changed for the better.

Still, many of the researchers were reluctant to recommend the Atkins diet, saying a large new study now under way could settle lingering questions of its long-term effects.

On the Atkins diet, up to two-thirds of calories may come from fat - more than double the usual recommendation, and violating what medical professionals have long believed about healthy eating. Carbohydrates are the foundation of a good diet, most say. Eating calorie-dense fat is what makes people fat, they say, and eating saturated fat is dangerous.

To Atkins, the key dietary villain in obesity was carbohydrates. He argued they make susceptible people pump out too much insulin, which in turn encourages them to put on fat.

Fat in foods can be a dieter's friend, Atkins said, in part because it quenches appetite and stops carbohydrate craving.

Atkins, a graduate of Cornell University's medical school, first tried a low-carbohydrate diet in 1963 after reading about one in the Journal of the American Medical Association. He said he lost weight so easily that he converted his fledgling Manhattan cardiology practice into an obesity clinic.

Besides his work on nutrition, Atkins also argued that ozone gas can kill cancer cells and HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, and he claimed to have treated more than 1,000 patients with ozone therapy.

The ozone treatment is a common alternative therapy in Germany and some other nations but has not gained acceptance in the United States.

In 1999, Atkins established the Robert C. Atkins Foundation to finance diet research. It has sponsored research at Duke University, the University of Connecticut and Harvard.

Atkins did not have any children and is survived by his wife, Veronica, and his mother, Norma, of Palm Beach, Fla.

---

By Associated Press Writer Lukas I. Alpert.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Speaking of Atkins... which makes me think about ketosis....

The body only goes in to ketosis when it cannot burn all the fats/proteins properly. Interestingly enough, the Native Eskimos, who lived on fats and proteins, did not go into ketosis because the foods were raw and contained digestive enzymes. And thus, their bodies burned off all these high calorie foods and kept them warm in the harsh climate!

Raw fats are where it's at!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

That's the part about Atkins I am really not on board with. pushing your body into an artificial state of ketosis is harmful no matter how you look at it. It is a survival mechanism and not meant to be exploited. It puts a large amount of stress on the liver and kidneys and can have pretty devastating long term effects for yo-yo dieters who follow the Atkins program. You also have to look at the types of fats he's advocating...he doesn't EVER (and I've read the book!) talk about pastured animals. He does do a drive by mention of organics, but you still have a major imbalance of omega 3's and 6's. It's just not responsibly written IMO.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

And huge mineral deficiencies too I imagine.


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

I wasn't impressed with Fallon's breastfeeding and baby feeding info, but after learning there was a biographical reason (her own difficulties) it made sense.
My main problem with NT, as a chef's wife and erstwhile gourmet, is that many of the recipes aren't great. They weren't tested/ vetted properly, and made according to directions some are horrible. I think that might turn newbies off the philosophy. But, that does leave an opening for me to write a cookbook, with the help of mamas here, ha ha. . .
The other problem I have with it is that it seems difficult to apply for 'regular folks'- which of course I'm not. I was already a HFS nut, who loved her fats, and cooked from scratch before I 'met' NT. But to a more mainstream mama. . . . I guess there needs to be an 'easing into NT' book, too. And, it's expensive and time consuming in real life. I mentioned that on my brief foray in the NT forum, and got a snotty response. I haven't been back. Oh, but I guess I could title my second book about economical NT, ha ha ha. . . .


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I'm with you. I posted the same thing somewhere. As a book, it's interesting...as a cookbook it SUCKS. I was already into health as well so I perservered, but not with Fallon. I like Weston Price's philosophies and just finished N&PD. Way more interesting and worth the $. I'd buy your book!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Just came across Sally Fallon's story of bf'ing her 3 children:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/saga.html


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## auntieM (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *provocativa*
My main problem with NT, as a chef's wife and erstwhile gourmet, is that many of the recipes aren't great. They weren't tested/ vetted properly, and made according to directions some are horrible. I think that might turn newbies off the philosophy. But, that does leave an opening for me to write a cookbook, with the help of mamas here, ha ha. . .

Ooooo. That would be wonderful. Go for it!


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

oops!


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

The part of the book that I like is where she says that we all need to adjust this way of eating to our personal needs (preferences/allergies/health issues) to find the ratios of foods that are best for us.

The conception/nursing/preg diet (on the WAPF website) is not suited for me for example: I do the CLO and eat all the whole foods usually traditionally prepared, but it is just too many animal products, and for that matter, too much food for me personally!

I am finding generally that a vegetable and fruits (lots raw), raw milk, moderate meats/fish/eggs, some butter on cooked veggies, olive/flax oil on salads, and _very_ little grains are working for me after about 2 months of experimenting.


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## sebrinaw (Jan 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Ok, here is where I'm going to don my flame-proof suit...

I have HUGE mama guilt for breastfeeding my DD with my previously deficient diet. At one point before we changed our diet, DH was suspecting early stages of rickets with DD. Then the horrible tooth decay happened. I strongly suspect that I was very vitamin D deficient, which of course made my milk deficient. Possibly b12 deficiency as well, as DD's toenails are oddly shaped.

Had she been on formula, it's anyone's guess if she would have been deficient in those particular vitamins. Would she have gotten tooth decay? I don't really know. She may have developed other horrible problems due to the formula.

This is not to say that I don't believe that breast is best, I firmly believe that it is. But I also strongly believe that there needs to be more information about the importance of nutrition for breastfeeding mamas. We tell pregnant mamas how important nutrition is, why can't we tell nursing mamas the same thing? I actually think it is MORE important for nursing mamas than pregnant mamas, as usually there are nutritional reserves enough to gestate whereas when you are nursing it just shoots out your breasts. JMHO.


I completely agree with this. I breastfed my oldest son for only 3 weeks and then do to some bad advise ended supplementing with formula. My next son was exclusively breastfed and I was eating a mostly vegan junk food diet. My third son was exclusively breastfed on a better diet, but still not great.

My first son has no cavities (although he got horrible ear infections his fist year of life). My second son has severe dental decay, but never got so much as a cold. My thrid son hasn't been to the dentist yet, but I really wonder what caused my middle sons dental decay. I have major mama guilt over for\mula feeding my first son, but after reading NT and WAP I am now having guilt over my diet while I was nourishing my second two sons. I think there is a terrible misconception out there that you can eat whatever way you want and still produce great breastmilk. I wish I had known better than









Just want to add that I in no way think that formula is better than breastmilk, ever. Even just taking out the nutritional aspect. There is so much more to nursing


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## sebrinaw (Jan 28, 2002)

Does anyone know the mineral content of bone broth? I would be curious to know how much calcium and magnesium and such are in say.. 1 cup?
Sebrina


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## phroggies (Sep 13, 2004)

I don't know if I _disagree_ with this part of NT, but I do have questions about it and was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts: why the strict prohibition against coffee, tea, and chocolate, when a) they're often fermented (I'm pretty sure about that, at least) and b) they are a traditional part of so many cultures?

NT gives an explanation for the negative effects of caffeine and related substances, but I'm not completely convinced. There seem to be a number of studies out there suggesting that coffee, tea and chocolate are good for you in limited amounts--and at any rate, the thing I like most about NT is that instead of having to pit one flawed study (and is there such a thing as an unflawed study) against another, you can consult what has worked over long periods of time for very large groups of people.

And I'm not just asking so that I can pig out! I have about two cups of black or green tea in a day, often less, and chocolate maybe a few times a month. Any one have any insight on this issue?


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## bigknitwit (Sep 2, 2004)

I think the part that really jumped out at me as poorly written/researched was the information on baby feeding/breastfeeding. I only read the first part of that section and quickly decided her advice was not for me. Since she had so much trouble feeding her own children, I think she should have either had someone else write that section for her, or do much more research. I agree with what others are saying here that a nursing mother's diet is very important, and not to be overlooked, but I don't see Fallon saying that at all in her book. Instead she quickly points the mother to breastmilk alternatives. As much as I love raw milk, one has to remember that casein is one of the more difficult proteins to digest. Her whole introduction to baby feeding turned me off so much that I started to question the merit of everything else she had to say...


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## auntieM (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phroggies*
I don't know if I _disagree_ with this part of NT, but I do have questions about it and was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts: why the strict prohibition against coffee, tea, and chocolate, when a) they're often fermented (I'm pretty sure about that, at least) and b) they are a traditional part of so many cultures?

I don't know what the official WAPF stance is on coffee, although I remember reading in the sample meals of members that Enig drinks one or two cups every morning. Here is a link on coffee from a (the?) Colorado WAPF chapter. http://wss.nourishingconnections.org...ion/Coffee.pdf


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
toraji, while I agree that the best option for feeding a baby is breastfed from a well-fed mother, I still believe that breastfed from a poorly fed mother is still superior to formula feeding. I don't like that Fallon disparages the milk of "poorly" fed mothers and emphasises artificial feeding in a way that seems to imply that formula could be an ideal choice even when the mother is able to breastfeed.

that.

ps







hi seb! (suseyblue here). i don't know how much glori would agree, but i think a huge bit is genetic. my teeth are awful, dd's so-so, the boys with dh- well, they got his magnificent bone structure & teeth, no probs. don't beat yourself up so much, it could be just a roll of the genetic dice. just eat well now & do the best you can with your beautiful little guys.


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## spiderdust (Oct 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alybeans*
Didn't Dr. Atkins have a heart attack? I haven't read NT, is it at all like Atkins? I've been considering reading it, even though I disagree with much of what I hear about it. Information is never a bad thing IMO.

He died after being in a coma for more than a week after hitting his head on pavement in a fall. He was under 200 lbs when he was admitted to the hospital, but gained over 60 lbs of fluid in a week due to multiple organ failures during his coma.

He *did* have a heart attack during his life, but that was related to an infection in his heart and not his diet.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Subbing...must join ALL NT threads!









I'm not sure how I feel about the organ meats myaelf...maybe just because I have such a difficult time eating them. And I think she ought to have consulted a chef on her recipes...and also the emphasis on grains. Otherwise I am in agreement with NT. What could be bad about wholesone, organic, whole foods, KWIM?


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## sebrinaw (Jan 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
that.

ps







hi seb! (suseyblue here).

Hi there!!!! I was like "who knows my name is seb"?


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just6fish*
The ONE problem I have with the NT BOOK is the section on breastfeeding and formula. I think Sally puts very little emphasis on breastfeeding, kinda like, 'well, if you can, do it'. I think it contradicts the whole point of the book! IMHO









:

Sally knows it's a problem, and by her own admission, 95% of WAPers nurse. And MANY, MANY mammas have the same complaint. We're working to get that changed.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

Organ meats, in paticular liver, do not store the toxins. The fats store the toxins. The liver filters it and send it to the fat for storage.


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## Realrellim (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krankedyann*
Sally knows it's a problem, and by her own admission, 95% of WAPers nurse. And MANY, MANY mammas have the same complaint. We're working to get that changed.

I'm really happy to hear that. I was troubled when I read that section after having had NT recommended through various sources.

It would be great if a new edition or different book could have a section on nutrition for nursing moms--with easy, fast recipes that reflect the reality of nursing a newborn all the time in those early days.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

I would LOVE to see that. However, the reality is that Sally is beyond her childbearing years, and in all likelyhood wouldn't do a project like that. You know, most people do what would benefit themselves at their stage of life, which is why I feel the nursing issue has gotten ignored like it has, plus knowing her own experience with it. All of the complaints I've heard on here I've heard over and over from other folks, too. That's why I started native-nursing on yahoo, to give people better advice.

My website has a lot of NT-friendly recipes that are quicker and easier with fewer ingredients. I need to start a section on fast and easy. I'll go do that now.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krankedyann*
I would LOVE to see that. However, the reality is that Sally is beyond her childbearing years, and in all likelyhood wouldn't do a project like that.

Do you think that she might allow for a contributor for the section though?


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

IME, no. Some of us are pushing for that, though.


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## faeriewisp (Mar 13, 2005)

Hi! I started a thread earlier about my 8 month old baby's homemade raw milk formula. I do not use the NT recipe, but I do use a couple of the ingredients she uses -- I add whey, gelatin, and acerola powder, and I also add a tsp of black strap molasses to each bottle. I do not feel like tropical oils and some of her other ingredients are appropriate for my very white baby in COlorado. I also wouldn't give a baby egg yolks or meat, unless this was a baby who was malnourished from birth. I don't feel like this is neccessary for us as Mirabai breastfed exclusivly for 6 months.

My milk dried up because of a very unplanned pregnancy, and I feel like the raw milk is SOOOOOOOO much more healthier than store bought formula. I'm so thankful that this info was out there. I understand why many would be put off by her seemingly lazy approach to bf, but it was a lifesaver for us! I wish more women could get this info.

Btw, making homemade formula is SUCH a bigger pain in the ass than mixing some formula together.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

In spite of the BF issues we are talking about, I am glad that Sally included some formula recipies-- I only wish I knew about them before I gave my baby powdered soy







for all those months. I was unaware that goats milk was a good choice too. (I had to get on meds incompatible with BF when he was 8 weeks old). He is allergic to cow but is doing great on goats milk. Soon we will get it raw when we buy our own goat.

I think that she figured if you are really doing NT then you are BFing...and life happens and you need a back-up plan if you don't have a lactating housemate









faeriewisp-Congrats! And from reading the NT formula instructions, I can only imagine all the work you do trying to give your baby the best!!!

Jennifer


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## auntieM (Apr 14, 2004)

We tend to forget that situations do come up where breastfeeding supporting mamas cannot continue (or start) to nurse. I had to wean DD at 14 months (chemo & lactation don't mix) & I still forget. It is good that there are resources available to help us figure out how to feed our nurslings when we cannot breast feed ourselves. Faeriwisp & Newcastlemama, I'm right there with you. It was so much easier when I could just roll over & whip out my breast to calm dd. Bottles are a PITA--even now that all DD takes in a bottle any more is water.


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## Lucy VanPelt (Mar 29, 2006)

A friend of mine (a chemist) was looking over the NT breastmilk substitute formulas yesterday and she questioned the nutritional make-up of the recipes. She thought they were too high in some nutrients and too low in others.

Does anyone else think those recipes aren't very good? I don't have an opinion on them one way or the other.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Back when we had Quinn (see my sig for story), we needed the homemade formula. He had been on soy for awhile before we discovered it and had a terribly difficult time keeping on weight because of his heart. We discovered that recipe and took it to our nutritionist. She was skeptical but agreed to let us try it. He THRIVED on theat formula - for the first time ever, he got a little bit chubby, even - he actually gained weight! We used kefir instead of raw milk as none was available, but since he was fed through a G-tube the thickness of that wasn't an issue. Considering all of the meds he was on, that kefir was probably great for his little gut, too.

Another friend of mine has been supplementing her own nursing of twins with that and pumped breastmilk, and they are doing wonderfully as well. The few people I know who have tried it have thought it was wonderful, and when our nutritionist saw how well Quinn was doing on it, she asked for the recipe and more information. A convert!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

My docs didn't love it and tweaked it a bit. IT did provide a good jumping off point though.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

the one thing in NT that i can never imagine myself doing is the raw meat. i just don't think i could bring myself to do it because of fears of contamination. even though we eat high quality pastured grass fed beef, i just think i feel a bit more comfy cooking it.

i haven't actually tried any of the recipes yet (i just bought the book last week and am currently making my way through it.) are the recipes really not all that great? some of them look kind of good. which ones were people not impressed with?

also haven't hit the bfing/baby feeding section yet. but overall, i really like the whole concept. too bad i don't think i'll be able to find raw milk here. we do cultured butter and yogurt though. but i still don't think any raw meat will be finding itself on my table any time soon.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

A minor disagreement on parenting practices, but nothing much related to the dietary advice.







I absolutely hate how she advises bribing kids. She suggests that you should bribe them with dessert when you want them to eat organ meats. That's certainly no way to raise kids who make healthy food choices!!!!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
A minor disagreement on parenting practices, but nothing much related to the dietary advice.







I absolutely hate how she advises bribing kids. She suggests that you should bribe them with dessert when you want them to eat organ meats. That's certainly no way to raise kids who make healthy food choices!!!!









at myself for bribing my son. I agree with you generally Plummeting except that I'm not sure my son would ever eat anything otherwise. And I don't really bribe him with dessert, just that he should eat one food first before another. The first is the least preferred but one he would still like. He plays until he is so hungry that he has a melt down so you will often also see an adult around here following him with a spoon or fork of food.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't really have a problem with anything Sally Fallon has written. She's not saying "you MUST include this, this, and this in your diet." She's saying "here are healthy ways to prepare various foods, the nutritional content of them, and the nutrients people need to be healthy." Then she gives some sample diet plans.

I don't quite agree with her emphasis on coconut oil- I AM including a lot of coconut in my diet right now, and losing weight, but I find it hard to believe that EVERYBODY would benefit from this. For example, my friend's DS with multiple food allergies CANNOT have nuts of any kind! Partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil is a healthier choice *for him* because it won't result in a visit to the ER!!


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
He plays until he is so hungry that he has a melt down so you will often also see an adult around here following him with a spoon or fork of food.

We do that here, too! This kid will say she isn't hungry until she is so starved she has a terrible meltdown, which then results in a nap. Then she wakes up an hour later even hungrier. Every morning, this is how it goes:

Me: What would you like for breakfast?
DD: No tanks, mama.
Me: Do you want French toast, an omelette, oatmeal, a banana, toast?
DD: No

Then I can either decide she really isn't hungry, which results in the meltdown situation about 1 hour later, or I can just fix whatever I want, which she will eat half of.


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## AnnC (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I don't really have a problem with anything Sally Fallon has written. She's not saying "you MUST include this, this, and this in your diet." She's saying "here are healthy ways to prepare various foods, the nutritional content of them, and the nutrients people need to be healthy." Then she gives some sample diet plans.

I don't quite agree with her emphasis on coconut oil- I AM including a lot of coconut in my diet right now, and losing weight, but I find it hard to believe that EVERYBODY would benefit from this. For example, my friend's DS with multiple food allergies CANNOT have nuts of any kind! Partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil is a healthier choice *for him* because it won't result in a visit to the ER!!

I agree, I don't have a problem with what she writes. I think she is trying to give lots of examples of foods properly prepared. Some of her recipes have been dismal failures for me, but others have been very good. Mostly I convert my own favorite recipes to NT, but some of hers give me ideas.

Sally was on the yahoo! group years ago, and I went to the archives to see waht her contributions were. She basically said not to be too obsessed about this way of eating, that any improvements you are able to make will help your health and that of your family. She just put the information out as education, and you can use what works for you.

Someone was talking about raw meat, but my understanding is that is ONE way to get certain enzymes and nutrients. You can eat meat rare, which is common in my family, so I do that. Also, I do have raw dairy, and good eggs from my friend's backyard chickens, so I eat raw yolks. I agree, I dont like raw meat, so I don't eat it.

But even when I didn't have a raw dairy source, I did make kefir, and I didn't have good eggs, so I didn't eat them raw, and no raw meat, for several years after I started this. Still, it greatly improved my immune system. Over the years, I was able to keep improving my sources for food, and am feeling even better. But as I told my mother, who is just starting on the WAP way of eating, each improvement helps. (She read NT and feels really badly that she fed me soy milk when she couldn't nurse, but that's what the doctor told her to do, and she did the best she could!)

I agree with you about the coconut oil. I can't stomach more than a little, it gives me a stomach ache and (ahem) the runs. And I'm part Hawaiian, go figure! Still, I'm more British than Hawaiian, and I don't think they had a lot of coconuts in the UK in the past. I eat a lot of butter, which has the same kind of medium chain fats -- less than coconut, but still. And I am losing weight, so it seems to be fine.

Ann


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## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

i don't have much time to post a lengthy reply, but i did want to say that a lot of the questions being asked in this thread can be answered by reading Weston Price's Nutrition and Physical Degradation. in this book you will very clearly see why sally believes that liver is highly nutritious and safe to eat. many of the cultures described in the book prized liver and treated it like very special food.

the evidence for eating traditionally is SO overwhelming in N&PD. without reading this book, i would still be skeptical at sally's book.


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