# My Challenge, My Love



## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

I've written many times here at MDC about my incredibly challenging 3.6 yo. He's extremely bright, inquisitive, loving, and defiant. I use the word "defiant" primarily b/c I am currently reading a book titled The Challenging Child, by Stanly Greenspan, MD. Although I am not in love with the book, I am finding parts of it helpful. Greenspan talks about the types of challenging children he's come across in his experience. And my boy falls under what he calls the "Defiant" child. And his description of this personality "type" fits my boy to a *T*. The part that saddens me the most is that Greenspan describes the defiant personality as one that is generally so in need of support and empathy that they sort of push the other way b/c they fear not getting what they need. He says that these children as they grow may feel that they are _loved_, but that their parents _hate_ everything they do. Sadly, I have to say that much of the time, especially lately, this is true.

My son has been very angry lately. And anytime we even remotely raise our voices he's been screaming and sort of lashing out back at us. We've had almost a full year of challenges since our 2nd child was born, and well, we've fallen short of our ideals as parents. I've yelled innumerable times, usually daily. Sometimes at the top of my lungs. I've felt, almost daily, that I can't stand to be around him ONE MORE MINUTE. The guilt and shame I feel about how I've parented runs very, very, deep. We don't hit or do anything physical, of course. We don't name-call or other blatantly abusive things, but I feel that I've scarred him with so much over this year anyway. My DH and I have parenting pow-wows everynight about how we can parent better, deal with our anger better, etc., etc. But every day there is something that happens that is infuriating, so mind-blowingly anger-producing that it would make Mother Theresa blow a gasket.

I don't know what I'm getting at here other than that I need some support, I guess. I try to let as much go as possible. I try to play, connect, laugh, hug, kiss as much as possible. When I absolutely don't want to be near him at a particular moment, I make a point of touching him anyway, just so he knows he's loved. I try to apologize for every outburst (there are a lot of I'm sorrys around here). I feel almost like we've lost this year. This very tender year is gone. And I still made (and make) the same mistakes every day sometimes.

My questions really are: Can you tell me about your defiant child? How did you reach out to them when they were lashing out? How do you deal with your child's anger? How have you parented your challenging child? Have you ever had a WHOLE flippin' year of mistakes? Ones that you can't take back?

Thanks for your support, Mamas. I need it. I want to keep my boy centered and feeling loved without losing my cool. But how am I supposed to do that when I don't feel centered when he's outta control?


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## MsMoMpls

Hey dear, I have been thinking about you and wondering how you and the tyrant are doing lately. Sorry to hear it isn't going great. I will come on here anytime you need to, just to tell you that angry, defiant children can grow up to be the most wonderful adults in the world. (Mine did.)

If you look at this as your behavior problem... the yelling, since you know that isn't helpful or necessary, then how would you only work on your behavior problem, not his? See what I mean? If the most important thing in the day is going without yelling, how would you do that? Maybe you could use sticker charts and candy bribes for you and your dh. Yelling isn't that different from smacking... not to blame you just that you don't yell because it is your plan or you think it is effective, you yell out of frustration and out of desperation. That isn't your best stuff. The Challenging Child really focuses on chosing your battles, doesn't it? I think I read it a long time ago... like forever ago when Nate's behavior was still making me crazy.

Lately when I feel really frustrated... like the urge to spank comes up, and it does, then I threaten to kiss his belly or tickle his toes or something that seems ridiculous. Because I am trying to remind myself that hitting or yelling at my 3 year is ridiculous. The other really stupid thing we are using is a lot of







rasberries.... no really. They speak volumes. I'll tell you a story that I am not particularly proud of, but think you will appreciate. When Nate was an absolutely horrible teenager, we started using what we called "the family salute". We just flipped each other off, when ever we felt like it, when ever we wanted. It took all the power and anger out of the act. It made it really kind of silly. That's how raspberries work now... it isn't disrespectful, it just represents frustration, mine or Joey's.

PM me if you need to talk. And just remember to love him up... as much as you can, every day. And be gentle with yourself, as much as you can, every day.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Maureen, how'd I know my old friend would be the first to respond??







Gosh, all of your words ALWAYS hit home for me.

It's so funny that you mention the "family salute" and the raspberries. Today, DS was doing something crazy and it was while DH was trying to actually get something done in the house. I could almost see the smoke start rising out of DH's ears. So I said, "DS, if you keep doing that, daddy's gonna kiss an elephant". It sounds ridiculous right now, but it really helped to diffuse the situation at the time.

My "baby" turned 1 this weekend and instead of having him on my mind today, I'm thinking very much of the tremendous challenges with my older son. And how it's been a WHOLE YEAR of loads of yelling and less-than-stellar parenting moments. Sometimes I feel really sad when I see other kids DS's age that aren't as challenging and I think maybe that kid has never been yelled at or had to be apologized to. Maybe mommy to them is still this wonderful safe spot. Now, I really do think I'm my son's safe spot, but I think he's learned so much about the complexities of life from ME and my transgressions this year.

I like your idea of the sticker chart for me and DH. We've gotten into some really bad habits with DS. For instance, there's a certain tone in both of our voices that we use when we start "disciplining" him. I want to change that. I want to change so much. And all I can say is that I'm still trying. Every day. I'll never give up on him or myself.

BTW, Maureen, if you don't mind me asking- - If you got yourself into a bad parenting dynamic with your older son, was there a way that you radically changed the atmosphere in your house? Don't get me wrong, we don't have a toxic house, really. We laugh a lot, we love a lot. We also have been yelling a lot. Perhaps for a whole year. Sometimes not every day. But sometimes multiple times a day.







:

Thanks for your advice and wise words as always, Maureen.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Sometimes I feel really sad when I see other kids DS's age that aren't as challenging and I think maybe that kid has never been yelled at or had to be apologized to. Maybe mommy to them is still this wonderful safe spot. Now, I really do think I'm my son's safe spot, but I think he's learned so much about the complexities of life from ME and my transgressions this year.

I get to be inside lots of families and all mommas lose it sometimes. It is so that our children are prepared for the reality of life- people are complicated and have feelings and make mistakes. No perfect kids, no perfect parents.

Quote:

I like your idea of the sticker chart for me and DH. We've gotten into some really bad habits with DS. For instance, there's a certain tone in both of our voices that we use when we start "disciplining" him.
Maybe squirt guns like you can use to train cats... you could squirt each other when you catch each other "disciplining". I suggest you try really focusing on acceptance. Give up trying to change your child... he just is who he is and needs to know that who he is is loveable and acceptable and then he might be willing to accept some guidance. You need to reinforce the love and acceptance side for a few weeks and get in a good place together before trying to be influencial.

Quote:

BTW, Maureen, if you don't mind me asking- - If you got yourself into a bad parenting dynamic with your older son, was there a way that you radically changed the atmosphere in your house?
The truth is I went through hundreds of horrible patterns and hundreds of restarts. All this "wisdom" I am sharing really came after it was all over. I just get to share the best stuff and save you some of my worst mistakes. Nate taught me the miracle of Gentle Parenting. Someday I hope we can write his book on parenting because he does understand better than any of us can ever hope to. He tells me that he needed to get out of his anger himself. That he needed to figure some things out. And the best thing that I ever did was not give up on him. And love him, and love him and love him. But everytime that someone made me feel like a bad parent I went back to trying to change him to prove something about me. Then things always got worse. Maybe people around me thought I was doing something, but I knew and Nate knew that it was all a show, and a really destructive one at that.

Keep hanging in there. I wish I was even asking the right questions when Nate was 3. You are really ahead of the game, although I am sure it doesn't always feel that way.


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## UUMom

The book that I found most helpful with my 'challenging' child is The Highly Sensitive Child. Then I read The Highly Sensitive Adult and realized the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.









The insight in these books is, imo, tremendous. You have to want your senstivie child --for all that he/she will teach about life and emotion etc. It changed my way of thinking.


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## Bearsmama

Thank you, UUMom. I'll look for the book at the library.

And Maureen, as always, I have more to say. But I just wanted to thank you again for your honestly and wisdom. I'm going to have DH read your words. I'll write more when I can.


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## traceface

Quote:

And all I can say is that I'm still trying. Every day. I'll never give up on him or myself.
You're such an incredibly good mom. Just wanted to say that!


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## GoldBerry

Bearsmama,

Just wanted to say







. I struggle with yelling myself. I try to focus on doing better today and not feeling guilty about yesterday(or last year!). Also, I make a point to enjoy and focus on dc #2 even though she takes much less energy than dc #1!


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## Bearsmama

Trace-Thanks so much for the kind words. I'm trying over here.









And Salvia-MDC has made me realize that I am not alone in my parenting struggles. Thanks for your reply. And you are right-it's so easy to focus on the challenging child and give the less-intense one less attention. I find myself doing that sometimes.

I think I have to post in the Discipline forum to try some new tactics. We had a banner day (or I should say that I had a good day). No yelling. At all. I find, though, that DS is yelling at me and getting really angry with me for no apparent reason. I let him go off and yell and stomp his feet and then I ask him why he's angry. Usually there is no response. This is something new for him, and it's probably due to the excessive yelling around here for a while. I think it's all coming out in him now. Anyway, we have some behaviors over here that I'm just not sure how to deal with. More later.


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## UUMom

Bearsmama--one thing that I did find when my CC was little was to let dc go ahead and 'rant'. Meaning, I did not respond to each word. I let dc do what dc needed to do. Occasionaly I would say "I am here when you need me".

But to try and reason when dc was upset was a lesson in *total* futility.

My particular CC had to vent for a bit, but when it was all over, it was *all* over.

I learned that it was best to be in 'reassuring mode' and not talk much. In fact, i leanred to not talk at all. I'd simply say 'I am right here, babe".


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## Dodo

I know that this is not meant to be a funny thread, but the expressions "parenting pow-wow" (we have them, too!) and "family salute" have me giggling.

I consider this past year a total write-off. I can't believe how violent and ugly the atmosphere was in our home. I had no idea that I had such a bad temper. I guess that I was basically an easy-going, happy person until I had a three-year-old.

But I am confident that we are coming out of it. Instead of yelling daily, I now yell about once every two weeks. Instead of yelling nasty insults, which I know was never your problem and for which you should be proud, I most often yell one word: "Stop!" (with the embarrassing exception of last Friday, where I lost my temper at a friend's house, and told dd, in front of our hosts, that I had had enough of eff-ing playdates, not a word combination that I expect to hear again).

My daughter and I are now experts and giving and receiving apologies. We can call one another out on behaviour that is out of line. We know that "Yelling doesn't get us what we want." We are learning appropriate ways to express feelings of anger and frustration, something that I'm almost three decades behind on.

There was a Brain, Child article that appeared sometime in the last year, where the author argued that families with three children are families whose first two children are most likely not spirited. This weekend, I watched a friend interact with her third and youngest child. When he didn't do what she wanted, her strategy was to say, "Please? Please, sit down, okay?" I was thinking, "Please? Three kids and your best parenting strategy is to say "Please, question mark"! All this to say I've acquired a wealth of parenting strategies over the past, difficult year. In fact, I have such a hard time being a good parent that I am now considering volunteering to discuss discipline with young parents because I know so much more about parenting now that I've had such a hard time with it. Does that make sense? I wasn't a natural, but I'm learning. And so are you! You survived your first year with two! Congratulations are in order.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Dodo, my August friend. I soooooo appreciate your honesty. I can't tell you how much. Isn't it surprising? I mean, really. I had no idea that parenting, especially parenting one extremely high-spirited son, and a pre-walking 1 year would be so mind-numbingly tough for me. I see other people with their kids and I can just TELL whether or not they have a spirited kid. It's a sort of glazed look in their eye. I completely understand the feelings behind your playdate outburst. I've had similar things happen with us. For instance, G-D is one of my favorite curse words. I tend to yell it when I'm angry or frustrated. Well, DS has taken to repeating it. I told him that it's not a good word and that adults make mistakes and use it sometimes, like me. Well, a few minutes after this explanation I heard DS say "G-D". And I reminded him again that it's not a good word. He then said, "Kid-Dammit". Like he made it his own. Smart and sassy, just like his mama!







(okay, I only *hope* to be smart and sassy).

UUmom-I agree with you on this one. When DS is having a meltdown or a tantrum, or just venting, I have found that I just need to let him vent. And occasionally chime in with "I'm here for you, baby", or something like that. He will actually get angrier and angrier if I insist on talking.

Acceptance. Easier said than done. I'm working on it. Thanks, ladies, for your continual love and support.


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## GoldBerry

Wow- bearsmama and dodo- I am really inspired by you both! Dodo- the ef-ing playdate comment nearly made me choke on my Pinot gris!







:

UUMom- I am going to try just being there next time my dd needs to vent. I agree with you...we are getting really good at apologizing to each other. Good practice, I guess....








:







:

Salvia


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## Yooper

I remember that Brain, Child article. And I agree 100%. My dd is spirited and very challenging for me. I have uttered a very similar playdate philosophy myself. I thought I would want more kids. I am really struggling to decide now because I fear being in the same spot as you, Bearsmama. And I am not sure I could do it. I already lose it more than I think is acceptable. Thank you all for your honesty.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Have you ever had a WHOLE flippin' year of mistakes? Ones that you can't take back?

Yep. One straight year, maybe a year and a half. It's hard to think about.







Then it got better, then I made mistakes for awhile again, then it got better and stayed better for a little longer, then more mistakes but they weren't as bad, and so on. And she's a happy kid. We haven't ruined her. We've learned a lot, and we're still learning. We won't be pros at this parenting thing until we're grandparents.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I didn't get any updates that there were more posts here. I'm sorry I didn't check back earlier.

salvia-Thank you for your kind words. I'm really hoping that Maureen and all the other wise mamas here are right-that they'll be okay, and so will we.

yoopervegan-It's so great to have these women to be honest with, isn't it? Amazing, really. And on the more children subject, I feel really sad about things right now. B/c if it wasn't for my older son and our challenge in raising him, I think I would DEFINITELY want more kids. In fact, it makes me sad to think that I feel that I can't "handle" another.

And sledg,







, I love seeing your posts. You've been so honest and encouraing to me in the past. Do you mind me asking if the decision to have a third was more difficult for you b/c you have a challenging child??? Or is the third the challenging one?

I am reading, reading, reading lately. And nipping the yelling in the bud. It's made a difference already, I can tell. But it still sneaks out. And not like any behavior really justifies the yelling, but it only really comes out in me at infuriating behavior. Like, when all the "fixes" haven't solved things and he's still doing the same thing over and over.

Currently, I'm reading Unconditional Parenting, and The Dance of Anger. I'm struggling with the Unconditional Parenting book a bit b/c althought it absolutely resonates with me, aren't there *some* limits we need to place on outrageous behavior (and I haven't gotten to the end of the book yet, so maybe it's there). I realize now, after 3.6 years that firm limits just don't ever work for my DS. The firmer you are about something, the worse things get. He needs support, encouragment, etc., at ALL TIMES or he starts falling apart.

We rarely go out to dinner, but tonight we went to the only local joint where kids are very welcome. It was a nightmare. DS didn't want to wait for his meal, didn't want to sit, they had linguine instead of penne for the kids' pasta and he proceeded to do everything with it besides actually eat it. We were getting some snickers from a nearby couple. Kind of like the Why-can't-you-make-him-sit-and-EAT? kinda look. We are not sticklers for being seated through a meal-I personally think that's a lot to ask of a young kid. But short of straight-jacketing him to the seat, what were we to do? I just feel that I am playing everything by ear all the time b/c I never know what his mood is going to be. NEVER. It's like living with a small, cute ticking timebomb.

Don't know why I needed to share that, but there ya have it. I just wish that there was some general parenting philosophy that I could grab hold of that would make all this better somehow. It really seems that my approach changes daily. The only big change I see working is nixing the yelling as much as humanly possible.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in here. And, of course, looking for some support. We had a tought weekend, and like I've posted above, a tough time in general lately. DH reminds me that this behavior goes in waves, that sometimes we're at the crest and sometimes at the trough, but that it will wane.

But can someone please tell me how we're supposed to have the energy to deal with the "minor", more "normal" 3-4 year old behavior when we've spent ALL FRIGGIN' DAY dealing with really challenging, HARD stuff?

We had a very difficult end to our day b/c DS has decided that bedtime should now be a challenge, too (bedtimes have usually been our saving grace b/c he's always loved going to bed). DS was exhausted, as usual, and we were on our way to getting him to sleep around 7:30. Needless to say, he decided that he wanted to get out of bed, come downstairs, etc. I know this seems very normal, but when literally since the crack of dawn EVERYTHING has been challenging, these little things throw us over the edge. How are we supposed to have the energy, the resources, the patience, to deal with this all day, with no reprieve? I'm starting to feel like we have a special needs child. I feel that I have the same complaints and struggles as many special needs moms I know. Don't get me wrong, DS is healthy and I am not in any way to trying to equate my challenges with those of special needs moms. BUT MAN OH MAN. I seriously think that someone else should be raising him, not me.

I have such shame and guilt, that I almost can't think about it. It's almost too overwhelming. The only good thing about the weekends is that there is someone else here to hopefully balance out the craziness. It's not all me, which it is during the week.

I am at a loss, ladies. I have hurt him so much with the screaming and yelling. And tonight, like other nights, I have told him that he needs to get into bed or I won't help him (I lay down with him every night). It is wrong, it is horrible. But I just don't know what else to do anymore. DH is so spent, so wasted by the demands of DS that he just can't even talk about it anymore.

Thanks for letting me vent.


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## Yooper

I am so sorry! I wish I had some better advice. I just finished Unconditional Parenting and dh is reading it now. When he is done I am going to read it again. And again if I need to. I can see that already I have gotten off path with dd and much of her "issues" are due to my anger and lack of patience. I totally understand how hard it is to handle a "little" thing after a whole day of "biggies" or even a day of constant "littles". I really fear year 3 and 4 and the teen years...... I really thought parenting would be much easier. The only advice I can give is that many times if I just let the anger go, the day goes better. It is hard to not be disappointed or worried about dd's bahavior. But if I try to live in the moment and isolate the behavior of that moment, it seems to help. I pretend I have no long term memory. I admit that I hold a grudge and often cannot do this but I hope to be able to do it more. Do you have anyone that can give you a short break? A mother's helper or a sitter? When I am at my rope's end (which usually happens on a weekday), I hand dd to dh when he comes in the door and go out for a beer or coffee with friends. If we are both approaching meltdown, we hire a sitter. Somehow dd is always an angel for sitters..... I really think that she plays off of my frustration. It seems that the day is always harder when my emotions play into it.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey dear, its me again. Just ask for support and you got it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

I am at a loss, ladies. I have hurt him so much with the screaming and yelling. And tonight, like other nights, I have told him that he needs to get into bed or I won't help him (I lay down with him every night). It is wrong, it is horrible. But I just don't know what else to do anymore. DH is so spent, so wasted by the demands of DS that he just can't even talk about it anymore.

Thanks for letting me vent.

This kind of thinking isn't helpful. A big part of feeling impatient and overwhelmed is your guilt and expectations. I don't think it is the worst thing in the world (BY A LONG SHOT) to make idle threats you don't mean in an attempt to get his attention. It is pointless and not very helpful but it isn't as destructive and horrible as you are sounding. Yelling is your reacting to feeling threatened. You are responding as though he is some way dangerous to you. Think about it. He is just a little boy- what can he do to you? Make you feel powerless, make you feel dumb, make you feel... you fill in the blank. I honestly think that you are over parenting. I wish I could pop in for a visit to get a real feel but I think you have shared pretty honestly and from what you are telling me, and only your side of things, right? You keep telling us that you are trying too hard, doing too much, reacting too strongly. It seems like you are afraid to be called a bad momma because of his behavior so you over compensate by proving you are doing something even when maybe what you most need to do is nothing. Does that make sense?

I don't want you second guessing yourself. I certainly don't think you need to read any more parenting books. You have all the answers in your heart and in your head. You just don't always have the internal resources to respond who you want to respond. I don't know, there is a big difference from... "man is it hard being Bear's momma" and feeling like you aren't really doing a good job and maybe someone else could do better. That I know isn't true. What makes your job so hard and what makes it impossible for anyone else to do is your enormous love and attachment to that beautiful child.

I send you lots of love acceptance and patience for yourself first.


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## Bearsmama

yoopervegan-Thank you. I actually have a mom's helper that I foudn shortly after my second son was born last year. She comes 1 day/week for 2.5 hours. It is a big help. But when DS is going thru something hard, when WE are going thru something hard-like we are now-he really wants to be with me. Go figure







And I 99% of the time I don't even leave the house when she's here (I just do house stuff and make dinner). I absolutely agree with you that when the emotions are involved things get stickier quicker. But how can they not? I can't remove myself entirely from the situation-EVER. And I know this is part of my problem. And you bring up something that I struggle with, too-holding grudges. I don't know if for me I would call it a grudge, but I tend to not be able to "get over" something very quickly. And my DS needs me to get over it and be done with and get back to the good stuff. Hmmmm???

Maureen-Thank you, thank you. Everything you're saying about the feelings that are associated with mothering this child is right on for me. I absolutely realize that much of this has to do with me. In fact, I think that's my problem.







I always think it's me. Can you say neurotic? Yes, I know I'm joking around here a bit, but I have big self-esteem issues and other childhood issues that greatly impact my parenting on a day-to-day basis. Maureen-Just your words alone about feeling threatened by DS are helping me think of things differently. Do you know of any good things/improved self-talk that I can think of when I'm feeling this way? Like something to replace that threatened feeling?

Your words about not having the internal resources to always respond the way I want to really hits home for me, too. Oddly, DS had some challenges right at birth (very long labor, breathing difficulties, etc). And I remember the doctor saying that he wasn't born with a lot of "resources", some babies are, some aren't.

"You keep telling us that you are trying too hard, doing too much, reacting too strongly. It seems like you are afraid to be called a bad momma because of his behavior so you over compensate by proving you are doing something even when maybe what you most need to do is nothing. Does that make sense?" (sorry, I couldn't quote it the correct way). Maureen-could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're trying to get across here. And b/c your words have been so impactful to me, I'd love to really get it completely. And what exactly do you mean by over-parenting? I would say that I agree with you, but I'm sure some would say that I don't "parent" enough.

This is sooo much more helpful-this sort of real (well, virtual!) interaction with other mamas (and a therapist to boot) then reading a gazillion books ever could be.

Much love, Maureen. Thank you.


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## MsMoMpls

Boy- I was a little bit worried about that last post, I felt like I was speaking pretty strongly but you have been so wonderfully open and receptive that I feel like you do want to hear what piece I can offer. So- about over parenting... Think of it this way- some where in the universe when you and Bear make the spiritiual decision to join your souls, you knew that you each had exactly what the other needed to learn. You made a pact to do this together, to learn from each other, lessons that there were no other ways to learn. So you came to this place, wher you would be his momma and he would be your challenge but you kind of forgot that you both picked each other and that you were here to work through some tough stuff.

So- stop worrying about "making" him be anything. He is perfect and you are perfect. There is only walking through the rest of the story. There is this wonderful journey and you both have a lot to learn but not in the way you think of learning, not in books or in lessons but fully with your heart. Just be brave. Just love and honestly it really will be just fine. You just have to get to the end of the story.

One thing when you are feeling threatened might be to sit on the floor, all the way on your butt and just put yourself at his level... I don't know. I know that Bear is here to heal you and you must be making it really a tough job...get out of his way and let him do his magic. You both deserve that.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-I am crying. That's all I have to say right now. Thank you.


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## MsMoMpls

This MDC world is so weird. I clicked off the computer last night knowing that you were going to get the message and praying that you "got it". I feel how powerfully you love your child. I think so many of the mommas here can feel that in your words. How can so much love ever be a bad thing? The thing I think that is missing in so many parenting books and philosphies is that parenting is such a intense spiritual relationship. I have enormous faith that you are on the right path... across the web and across the country, that keeps coming through.


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## UUMom

One of my children also hated to leave the house. Just not a transition person. It was awful as I recall. 3 other children ready to rock and this one wee one sitting on the floor just being miserable. Because of the needs of the other, I often did have to scoop dc up in my arms and just bring them along, saying as many soothing words as i could. I also did try to make other arragements for this one-- ad friend over to watch, or have someone else take the others to their appotintments etc. It lasted a good 2 years and was hard on all of us. This is the same little child who would cry and meltdown because they could not decide whether they wanted a popscicle or an italian ice from the ice cream truck at the beach. It was very sad and very diffocult.

It's not like that anymore, thank god. But it was terrible while it lasted.


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## emblmrgrl

Bearsmama,

I've been following your threads for sometime now and I finally just had to post to offer some support. I'm a yeller. A frequent yeller. I actually found MDC by accident one day last year when I was at the end of my rope (again) with my spirited son.- I should add here that my spirited son is a twin to my highly sensitive son. (complicated parenting, anyone?







). So anyway, my boys are now 5 1/2. When Cole (challenging son) was 3, I thought for sure neither he nor I would ever see age 5.

I think I was taking in all this energy from people that had placed unspoken expectations on us and it was making me crazy. In the end, I've really had to just relax and let him be himself. I cannot make him conform to any particular standard. If nothing else, he's teaching me patience one baby step at a time. The days of me wanting to throw myself in traffic come fewer and fewer now. :LOL


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## TEAK's Mom

Oh Bears, I've been without a computer for months now and I have missed you so much. This thread is so important. I am right there with you on so many things. You know that you are an amazing mama and have survived an incredible amount with Bear.

I swear he and TEAK have so much in common. She woke up screaming in the middle of the night insisting that we were not in a house and that she is not a girl and that the sky is never blue. This happens sometimes just in the middle of everything; she'll proclaim that there is no couch and get hysterical about it. It can be so hard. I finally have a strategy that sort of helps. If she is NOT a girl today, I ask her if she is something powerful like the king of the goblins from one of her books. Or, if she has no eyes, then we become cave fish (this one happens when she has had too much stimulus). But, I dream of not having to worry about random hysteria all the time.

Anyway, baby is starting to cling to my leg, but I wanted you to know that all of this really resonates with me and I'm thinking about you.

HUGS!
k


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## The Lucky One

Quote:

I feel how powerfully you love your child. I think so many of the mommas here can feel that in your words. How can so much love ever be a bad thing?
















































































I could never have said it better. As I've said before, Bears is one lucky boy to have you as a mama. I think you put more thought and effort into one day with him than a lot of children get their entire childhoods.

It has often seemed to me that you hold yourself up to this gold standard of parenting that doesn't even really exist. No one is perfect and I would venture to say that you and Bears have a deeper and closer relationship in most ways than parents of 'easy' children have with their children. Sometimes I think the struggles and hardships we face with high-needs children bond us closer to them.

Anyway, just my ramblings on a Wed afternoon.

(((hugs))) to you...


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## Bearsmama

Oh, ladies, Hi and thank you.









egrl-Thanks for your reply. I am finally realizing that DS is teaching me things that I just have to open myself up to. And patience is #1. And I have a feeling that it will be a lifelong process. Patience and acceptance. And those two things I really need for ME before I can ever truly give it to DS.

UU-Yes, DS has big trouble leaving the house. But we all go stir crazy if we're inside for too long without going somewhere. Maybe a day is fine, but by the end of day 2, we're ready to go somewhere. DS starts acting like a caged animal. And I get very cagey very quickly. I'm sorry it lasted so long for you. And I'm encouraged to know that it's over know and is hopefully a distant memory.

TEAK's & TLO-My old friends!







Thank you both, as always for your support. TEAK'S-I'm amazed that TEAK and Bear are so similar. And even more amazed that there are OTHERS here with more children like ours-and struggling mamas. I really like what maureen has said. That we haven't gotten "to the end of the story yet". It's so hard b/c we don't have a crystal ball. And since birth I've said to DH that I would LOVE to have one so I could see DS at 18, 25, 30-whatever age-and make sure that he will be okay. And it's just not that simple ever, obviously. We're very familiar with random hysteria over here. I find that if I ever even remotely change my tone or start raising my voice when he is flippin over something just makes things 100x worse. It's such a delicate balance and dance.

TLO-Thank you. I really appreciate your words. I do feel that I think about the impact of my parenting a lot. Probably too much. In fact, don't they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I'm hoping my *thinking* is not just intentions all the time, and I try to put a lot into practice, but sometimes, I'm off the mark. Okay, a lot of the time.
On the better days I can absolutely relate to feeling closer or potentially having a stronger relationship with Bear B/C of these struggles. On the bad days, however, I long for other people's relationships with their easy kids.

I am rambling a bit tonight as it's getting late. Today and yesterday have been much better days. It's almost like something has "lifted" from DS. Weird. More when I can.


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## Bearsmama

Knock, Knock, Guess who???









Oh, Maureen, are you in the house tonight?

Bears has major issues with allowing us to take care of his basic hygiene. Tooth brushing, hair washing, bathing, hand washing before dinner, YOU NAME IT. I know with some other issues, his behavior has improved when we've stopped making it an issue. But how can we stop making his hygiene an issue? We've given up so much in terms of trying to parent him. We don't micromanage, really, we don't. But are we supposed to give up this basic stuff, too? Won't his teeth fall out? (BTW, these things have been issues of his for most of his life, and none of it has actually gotten better).

DH bathes the kids most nights, and tonight DH was with him for about 30 minutes. And when I went upstairs, he whispered to me, "I can't parent him". Which is something I've said to DH many, many times.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to let go of when we've already let go of so much. I am trying to be patient and as loving as humanly possible. But it still sucks most days. I just want to know that we're all going to get through this.


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## MsMoMpls

Yep- I am here... we are on the same wave length.

I will admit the horrible truth... Joey hasn't had a bath in weeks, nor a shampoo. When he got his hair cut this past week, the stylist said she really suggests shampooing every day. I smiled and nodded. No way was I going to tell her that I never wash his hair.

I use violence to get hands and face and butt clean. Well, not violence but sometimes I just grab him and do it fast.

The tooth thing we have been more successful with. He went to the dentist who told him how beautiful his teeth were and got him to promise to brush daily. He won't do much for me, but for her... anything. So now I brush while he sits on the potty (we are way behind on potty training too!) and I sing the abc's (which is too short but about all we can handle.) When he bites down or I can't brush, I stop singing so it takes as long as it takes.

So- maybe the reason I am a low stress momma is I really do chose no battles. I figure he will grow out of all of these weird things... but I do want him to still have teeth when he outgrows them. Picking my battles means mostly I have to feel it is something that has a lifelong impact. Shampoo not, toothpaste, yes.

Keep on hanging in there, he is growing daily... and so are you.


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## Bearsmama

What are we, cyber sisters? Thanks, Maureen.

Okay, maybe we *thought* we had given everything up and we haven't. We do sort of make it a priority for him to take a bath and get his hair washed. Primarily b/c we co-sleep (oh, we've encouraged him to sleep in his own bed, but do I have to tell you how that goes?). I read some of your words to DH tonight, and although he agrees, he is in such a funk tonight b/c of DS that he thinks nothing will help. THANK GOD I have a partner to do this with. B/c on the nights when he's had it, I can offer a tiny, smidgeon of hope. And vice versa.

It's so hard to give things up and really, really mean that it doesn't bother me. I've given up sooooo much in terms of what I thought I could do as a parent, so much of what I thought he can do on a daily basis. That thinking about giving up more, well, I start to take it personally. And I know that's one of the number one things NOT TO DO. You know, if your kid has a tantrum, you sort of have to remove yourself from it and try desperately to not take it personally. Well, with our DS it's so hard to detach.

Anyway, I'm going to try to give up our bathtime battles and see what happens. Let go, let go, let go. That needs to be my mantra.

Oh, have I mentioned that he starts preschool in 2 weeks?


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## mich

Thank you so much for this powerful thread.

Someone receintly said to me that they cant remember the last time they got angry. That blew me away. I cant even count how many times I get angry in one day.

This thread has so much powerful food for thought. I am reminded of a time last year when I came to the realisation that my anger was the direct result of my fear. I started asking myself one question when I felt like yelling and lashing out at one of my children; "What am I afraid of"

For me, I have an overwhelming fear of raising unhappy, un-adjusted children who fail in life. If they fail it means I have failed. When one ds is aggressive twords the other, I fear to raise a bully. When I ask ds to help and he angrly refuses, I fear raising a selfish uncaring adult. When my children become angry, I fear their anger, fear they will become angry adults.

This is also all about my collective memory. One instance would never cause me worry. But years worth of fears realy adds up.

MsMoMpls, thank you for your beautiful posts. I know that when I can embrace that my children and I chose each other. That we are suppose to be together for all of us to grow and learn. During these times I can trust that the children I am blessed to call my own will grow, slowly, into the adults they are ment to be. We are walking a path together. I must let go of my fear. My family will be better off if I love and trust who they are right at this moment.

Thank you for this gently reminder.


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## Bearsmama

Mich-Thanks so much for your reply and wonderful words. What honest, great mamas we have here at MDC. And Maureen's words have been such a help to me in dealing with my challenging DS-I can't even tell you. Keep reading her words and maybe we'll both be in a better place on a daily basis.


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## MsMoMpls

To all mommas- Bearsmomma knows this but I want you all to hear, I know some stuff but believe me, I didn't learn it in grad school. I learned it from Nate. I learned the hard way, the way you are all learning and boy are Joey and Zach lucky for that.

People who really know that their child is different will understand. Nate was horrible!!!! He was insane... really. His anger and anxiety and self hate were so bad that he was hospitalized multiple times and on meds for years... and he is wonderful now. He just grew out of it. I have no other explaination. He just grew. And while he grew I did all I could. A lot of yelling, some threats, a lot of frustration and pain for both of us. I regret yelling, I regret threats, I regret many of the decisions I made and the blow ups that happened but I do not regret just hanging in there and loving him as much as I could every day. That is the only thing that mattered and the only thing that lasted. He holds no grudges and neither do I. We lived through it and love each other enormously today.

I've told Bearsmomma that if I could give her one magic gift it would be to meet the adult Bear. I wish you all could. But you don't get to read the end of the story, you just have to get there. If there is anything I can do to help, I owe it to all the mommas who kept me sane through my journey.


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## The Lucky One

Thank you, Maureen, I have enjoyed reading your words so much. Bearsmama and I have said many times that we wished we had crystal balls and could see our challenging sons as adults and know they turned out OK. It is reassuring to know that your son did just that!

And Bearsmama, please forgive me if I've suggested this before, but I sometimes wonder from what you write if Bears might not have SID. I know all kids his age are prone to disliking hygiene from time to time, but it sounds like Bear dislikes it every time and to the enth degree. I have done a lot of reading on SID because for a time my dh and I thought that our own ds might have it (and sometimes I still think he may have a mild case, but knock on wood he seems to be outgrowing a lot of the things that gave us concern). Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. And I know, like me, you hate the thoughts of labeling or diagnoses, but if treatment could help, even just a little...


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Lucky One*
And Bearsmama, please forgive me if I've suggested this before, but I sometimes wonder from what you write if Bears might not have SID.


Oh, good point... they actually didn't have this when Nate was little... boy am I old, but one of the earliest signs he was "different" was that he hated the tags on his clothes, hated the seam on his socks and hated how loud the toilets flushed at the mall. Funny thing is that now he goes to raves but can't go to the mall... too intense. I try to remember that with Joey who seems to love the mall but only for 30 minutes or so.


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## Magella

Hi Bearsmama! I have been away on one last glorious vacation before my sweet, challenging baby starts kindergarten tomorrow after having grown up way too fast!

Way back on this thread you asked

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Do you mind me asking if the decision to have a third was more difficult for you b/c you have a challenging child??? Or is the third the challenging one?

I don't mind at all! The decision to have a third child was not at all difficult, partly because I always knew I would have 3 kids and partly because our challenging child is our firstborn. Dh and I have said that if our first had been easy-going and our second had been challenging like dd1 we would've probably stopped at two, because we would've been so shocked at how difficult parenting can really be. But since our very spirited and challenging dd was our first, we didn't know better. We thought all kids were like her and I thought the reason it was so hard because I sucked as a mother. I didn't actually think it was all that hard until she was about 2 1/2 or so, and our second was crawling and showing his easy-going nature-that's when it started getting really rough, and still it was after that we decided to have a third. That's when it got tough and I started questioning my ability to parent and thought she'd be better off with someone else as her mother. Our third child is somewhere in between easy and challenging so far-she is not quite 2.

I have read mountains of parenting books. I have read mountains of information on SID and various other possible disorders while stopping shy-on instinct-of having dd1 evaluated by professionals. I have blamed myself, blamed her, blamed food, and blamed an unnamed "disorder" that must exist within her for all the difficulties we've faced. I have blamed my childhood, I have blamed it all on a lack of "goodness of fit" between myself and my daughter.

What I see today? I see that there is nothing to blame. She is who she is and I am who I am. I have unrealistic expectations at times, and she is sometimes unable to contain her emotions. We are both strong-willed and like to be right and get our way. I get a little too caught up sometimes in what I want or what I feel, and fail to see that she's doing something inappropriate/annoying because she's upset about something else entirely and just really needs a hug and to talk. In other words I am merely human and so is she. On the eve of her going to kindergarten I am really grieving the time I've missed while I worried so much and tried to make both myself and her perfect. All those struggles, those frustrations, the fighting with her. If only I had just relaxed a little, trusted her, trusted me, not allowed myself to get so caught up in believing her behavior is a complete and accurate reflection of the good-ness or bad-ness of my mothering. While she is by no means grown up, she's not really little anymore either and she never will be again and I really do have some regrets. But she is beautiful. I have lots of good memories and look forward to making more good ones. We have arrived at a point in time where she is helpful, mostly cooperative, able to talk about her feelings even if only to say "I don't know how to say it, but I feel bad". I can see now so clearly how some of the things she does that I've found so challenging are such great assets for her and will continue to be as she grows. I have learned by now how to help her calm down and how to communicate with her better. She has grown and I have grown.

I could go on and on because I'm feeling really sentimental today














The bottom line is that I have learned to put down the books, to stop trying to be a perfect parent, and to stop expecting that being a good enough parent will result in my children being any different than they already are. I have learned that my ideas of how things _should_ be bring a lot of trouble, whereas accepting how things _are_ helps me be a more calm and compassionate parent. I won't find the answers in a book or in an evaluation of my child (that is a statement about me and my child, not anyone else) or in the suggestions my therapist has. The answers are all right here, within myself and within my children. All I have to do is listen, even if sometimes it's really hard to hear the answers. We still have bad days, I still yell sometimes, but not nearly as much as I used to. We have more good days than bad, many more. And most important of all, my dd is just fine. She is happy, she is brave, she is confident, she says she loves herself. She is giving and loving, she loves her brother and sister. She trusts us and she knows we love her. She is smart, she is creative, and I do really trust that she is strong and will keep thriving.

You and Bear will be fine, I really believe that. You love him so very much and you try so hard. Isn't that all any parent can do? Isn't that everything a parent can do? He will grow and you will grow and someday you will look back on this as a distant memory. You will remember as many good times as bad, probably more good times.

On a practical note, some things that helped us cope during the toughest times were:
-no processed or artificially colored foods
-very little sugar
-no soy
-massages (for dd, though going for a massage myself was helpful at times and I'd highly recommend a massage for any mom)
-brushing dd's skin with a soft nail brush. She hates tags, has trouble with how socks and underwear feel, can't wear 3/4 sleeves, and other sensory stuff. We always knew massages were relaxing and decided to try brushing after reading some stuff on SID. Made up our own brusing routine, and she loved it-if nothing else it relaxed her and gave us time to be at peace with each other.
-baths and showers for relaxation only (no washing-we wash as needed but kids can shower/bathe to relax daily or even twice daily if they need it)
-a weighted blanket to lay under when she was really having trouble with her clothes
-reducing stress as much as possible: predictable routines, frequent snacks (she didn't always seem to either know or be able to communicate when she was hungry), plenty of sleep, plenty of touching/hugging/playing
-messy activities
-plenty of excercise
-school. Things got easier in many ways when she started preschool. This is also a big part of the reason she's going to kindergarten. Homeschooling is my ideal, but I just don't see it working for us right now. Dd enjoys having her "own" place and a change of scenery/activities/people, I need a break from the intensity. There are other reasons also, but these two were biggies. Preschool may be a great blessing to you once he's settled in.


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## craftykitty

Ahhhh.








I could have written your post! I don't much time to answer right now, but I'll come back to this thread. My dd is 3.3 yrs and is the biggest challenge of my life!


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Once again, thank you for your beautiful, honest words.









TLO-Thanks for your reply. And the reminder on the SID. I've thought of everything with DS-ADHD, SID, diet stuff, etc., etc. I DO think that he has some of the aspects of this. He is extremely sensitive to bathing, especially getting his face washed. He won't wear certain clothes, shoes. Doesn't like the seams in socks, etc. He's definitely "spirited" and perhaps something else. But I don't know what that "something else" is. And maybe I never will. I will certainly keep this in mind as he grows to see if anything lessens with time.









And sledg-What can I say? Your words, like Maureen's, have helped me soooooo much in the past AND again today as I read your reply below. There is so much in your post that I'd like to reply to that I'm a little overwhelmed right now. I will say, however, that your bits of advice on what's worked for you and your DD is incredibly helpful. Much of which, on the good days, I'm paying real close attention to. I will pick out one of the elements of your post that stuck out to me tonight. I, too, am sort of grieving this past year. I see other people with their kids-their easy kids. And I think about all the good times they've probably had this year (clearly this is just an assumption on my part). And honestly, it's hard for me to easily pick out the really good times of this past year. It's been the hardest year of my life. I think with these very special, challenging kids the good times are really just the tiny moments when things seem easy, when the stars seem aligned to allow things to just FLOW. And flowing isn't something that happens around here. At least not much. I've said before (and I think at the beginning of this thread) that I feel that this past year has been LOST. Just lost. So many mistakes, so many challenges, so many ugly moments that probably could have been avoided. All I can ever say is that I'm trying every day and I'll never give up on my boy-even during the hardest times. And b/c of all these mamas, especially Maureen and you, sledg, I have faith and hope that the adult Bears and the older Bearsmama will both be okay.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, crafty-I'm glad this is helpful to you!


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## craftykitty

Wow. I just got a chance to pour a glass of wine and read through this thread. I cried with relief, because it's so good to know I'm not "the only one" and neither is my daughter and because of the great encouragment in this thread.

I feel broken. I feel the pain of wasted time and broken hearts - hers and mine. I know her spirit has been crushed uncountable times in her short life. I feel insane. I feel like a small child in her clutches. I never realized that a wee being could possible reduce a grown woman to such a juvenile state.

Yesterday I spanked her. Just one "smack" on her bottom with an open palm, but nevertheless - I spanked her. It was time to pick up my 5 year old from school and we were late and I was desperate. She didn't want to go. The pavement was over 100 degrees and she wouldn't put on shoes. I was holding my 11.5 month old in my arms and couldn't hold her too along with my keys, wallet, etc. I coaxed, pleaded and bargained. Finally, as she lay there screeching, sprawled on the floor, something inside me snapped. I reached down before I even thought and popped her bottom. Hard. The look in her eyes was terrible - rejection, hate and disbelief rolled into one. It didn't work. I felt like dropping everything, even the baby and sprawling on the floor with her to scream, cry and kick my feet.

The yelling is an everyday occurance. It doesn't work either. I never expected it to, but I do it anyway. I hate myself for it. She says she hates me too.







She is so very, very loved, but does she really know it? I tell her every day . When it's a good moment, I grab her up, covering her in machine gun style kisses. I sing her songs and stroke her hair. Then the storm comes and it's hard rain washes away all the good intentions. I feel so raw and jagged. I don't want to live this, but I am.

The doctors say that she has SID, that she had ODD or maybe ADHD or that she's a sociopath, or that... that... that.............
She hits our cat with sticks, proclaiming that she is "stabbing him and blood is coming out". She tells her brother "Let's kill Mama and then we can so whatever we want - let's cut the baby, too.". What have I done wrong? Where has she heard such vile things? She doesn't even watch television. Hate spews from her mouth when she is angry. I know I add to it with my anger, although all I want to feed her is love.

She is the most wildly beautiful work of art that I have ever seen. I have bountiful love for my other two children, but in some ways, she is secretly my favorite, despite her many quirks. I watch her play. Her tiny, 27 pound frame spins and jumps and twirls... touseled, golden hair flying around her face, cornflower blue eyes glowing in the sunlight. She is wonderful and my heart beats faster every time I see her. I just wish I knew how to help her.

Thanks for listening to my rambling...


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## Magella

Oh, craftkitty!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
. I, too, am sort of grieving this past year. I see other people with their kids-their easy kids. And I think about all the good times they've probably had this year (clearly this is just an assumption on my part). And honestly, it's hard for me to easily pick out the really good times of this past year. It's been the hardest year of my life. I think with these very special, challenging kids the good times are really just the tiny moments when things seem easy, when the stars seem aligned to allow things to just FLOW. And flowing isn't something that happens around here. At least not much. I've said before (and I think at the beginning of this thread) that I feel that this past year has been LOST. Just lost.

I feel the same way about the year my dd was about 2 1/2-4. Those good moments do seem tiny sometimes, but I know that for me it's really all in my perception-the perception I do believe I _choose_. I went to bed last night thinking about what I said about accepting things as they are, and how doing that helps me be a more compassionate and patient parent. There's more to that. Accepting things as they are in this moment, letting go of what I wish things were like ("oh why can't she just do what I ask?" "Why can't she just wear the darn socks without complaining and fidgeting and freaking out?" "Why can't she just listen?" "why can't she just tell me what she needs instead of flipping out?"), frees me to see what I really need to do in that moment to meet both our needs and help things flow more smoothly. I cannot tell you how much of a difference this one thing has made in my relationship with my daughter. So, for example, instead of that internal "why can't she just wear the freaking socks and get her shoes on like every other kid so we can get to school on time and without fighting?!"-which inevitably leads to the struggle and frustration and, often, yelling-I can think that, be aware that I'm thinking it, and then be aware that she just can't do that sometimes because those socks really do feel awful to her. Then I'm not focusing on the fantasy kid I think would be easier to raise, I'm focusing on my kid, and I feel the calm I need to get through the moment and help her find a solution.

I have learned amazing things from parenting my challenging kid. But maybe the biggest is that all we really have is this moment. The moment that just went by, the last day that went by, the last week-they're gone. The next moment or five minutes or the next week-well, they're not real yet and there's no guarantee they'll happen at all. I can't live there in the future and though I can dwell on the past I can't change it or live there either. I have this one moment, right now, and that's it. I will make mistakes, but if I dwell on them I miss this moment. And that's when the time is lost, when I look back and say "oh my god, I missed it. She was little and I missed it." Sure, I'm human and I will miss moments, or maybe even days. But I have to let go of a lot of my mistakes, even the huge ones, if I want to savor the beauty that is this moment-I don't mean forgetting, just not clinging to them, yk? And I now know that even in the struggles there is so much love and beauty to be experienced, and even in those moments that seem filled with only pain are so valuable and teach me so much.

I have found myself asking "If I knew I were going to die tomorrow, or very soon, would this matter? Would I think this particular thing is worth struggling over?" Sometimes the answer is no, sometimes it's yes. Then I ask "If I knew I were going to die very soon, how would I want my child to remember this moment?" This really helps me step back and really see, understand, and find the response that's most helpful. At first I thought I was being very morbid (with the whole dying thought), but since all we do have is this moment I think it makes sense-though now I try to ask myself the same questions without the whole "If I knew I were going to die" bit.

Well, I have a frustrated toddler on my hands. Dropped my baby off at kindergarten, she'll be there all day. I miss her. She had a beautiful morning and arrived at school with a smile, which was not how I thought the morning would go. She's full of surprises.


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## emblmrgrl

This thread is so helpful right now. Just seeing that someone understands what it feels like to live with such a lively spirit. We're having a particularly challenging time with Kindergarten this week. I hope everyone else's week ends smoothly.


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## TEAK's Mom

This thread is such a gift. Sometimes, just knowing that I am not the only one with an insane child makes it easier to face the world. What Sledg said about letting go of that fantasy child who just acts normal really resonates with me. TEAK is not a normal child, but she is wonderful. I think sometimes I am setting myself up for trouble. Everyone I meet talks about how important social interaction is for 3 year olds, so I make an effort to get her to social situations. Then, she acts weird, freaks out, etc and I want to scream, "why can't you just act normally for one minute?!?!" It's stupid, it's my fear and I need to let it go.

Maureen, you are so wonderful! I laughed like crazy when you talked about baths and potty learning. We are right there with you. The only way I can bathe TEAK is to take her to the pool and go swimming. She is hysterically, completely afraid of our tub and shower for no reason I can detect. NOTHING bad has ever happened in there, I swear it. But, at least she will shower at the pool. And, potty learning...I have a 3 year old who can read better than many 8 year olds, but she refuses to potty learn. I refuse to push the issue because I just don't want the power struggle and I don't think it will help. But, when every other 3 year old we see is out of diapers, it can be hard. I even had one mother tell me that her daughter couldn't interact with mine because she didn't want TEAK to cause hers to backslide into diapers.

This is the most important thread to me. It shatters the image of normal that I tend to carry around in my head. We are all real mothers with real children. We can do this...we can do this...


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- mother's of "tough" kids... what do you do about potty learning? Believe it or not, that was really easy for Nate... he hated being wet and was so stressed about it he trained himself by 2. Joey is another story. (OK, I may be in denial about his temperment.) I just found my old copy of Toilet Training in Less than a Day. I think it is an antique. It was horrible. Certainly not GD. Joey hates baths, loves the hot tub which has been broken all summer. Maybe I could use it for a potty chair. :LOL

Reading some of your stories is making me remember... and some is good and some is bad.

Sledge- congrats on the first day of school. What an amazing thing to go off into the big world on your own for the first time.

Craftkitty- lots of hugs. I have certainly been there. Some kids are easy to love and some kids require our whole heart- but they stretch us in our loving them.

We all deserve a metal. To all of us fantastic mothers-


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## craftykitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Ok- mother's of "tough" kids... what do you do about potty learning? Believe it or not, that was really easy for Nate... he hated being wet and was so stressed about it he trained himself by 2. Joey is another story. (OK, I may be in denial about his temperment.) I just found my old copy of Toilet Training in Less than a Day. I think it is an antique. It was horrible. Certainly not GD. Joey hates baths, loves the hot tub which has been broken all summer. Maybe I could use it for a potty chair. :LOL


Well, I did *nothing*. LOL! I guess I believe in child led potty learning. I KNEW beyond the shadow of a doubt that the more I wanted her and guided her to PL, the more she would resist it. I showed her how it was done (not hard since she follows me to the toilet and camps out at my feet). I gave her the tools to do it (pull-ups, pants that could be easily pulled down and a good stool) and let her decide when she wanted to do it. I never asked if she needed to go, etc., but if she did choose to go, I said "Wow! You went to the potty on the toilet! That deserves a treat." and I gave her two Skittles. She did it right as she turned three. I can pretty much promise that if I would tried to get her to PL, she would still be in dipes. :LOL


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Ok- mother's of "tough" kids... what do you do about potty learning? Believe it or not, that was really easy for Nate... he hated being wet and was so stressed about it he trained himself by 2. Joey is another story. (OK, I may be in denial about his temperment.) I just found my old copy of Toilet Training in Less than a Day. I think it is an antique. It was horrible. Certainly not GD. Joey hates baths, loves the hot tub which has been broken all summer. Maybe I could use it for a potty chair. :LOL

Well potty learning was easy for us, too, so I guess I have no real tips on that one. Cole also hated to be wet and he had the potty mastered in about a week. He was a little over 2. I got lucky with that one, lol.


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## UUMom

I totally waited until the child was ready. (I did that for all of them but esp and moreso with my CC (challening child) I waited until the interest was verbalized in a big way). Bothering beforehand is a recipe for disaster & anger.

The age of potty training has never been important to me. We used cloth (diapers and 'training ' pants) , and washing wasn't any big deal as we had a good washer in our home. My CC actually trained pretty quickly and fairly young--but--as I said, dc was **totally* invested and very verbal about it.

PS and ETA-- I agree with the above poster-- "Nothing" is a much more correct and explanatory answer.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I am fading fast tonight, and tomorrow is a big day, but I just wanted to chime in on what I've had a chance to read tonight.

First, craftkitty-









And sledg-I really like your "what-if-I-die-tomorrow" thinking. Yes, I agree that at first it sounds kinda morbid. But I've tried to go here before and it really does work for me sometimes. The problem is remembering all the good stuff in the heat of the hard moments.

And potty learning! This is what's been on my mind A LOT lately, so I had to add my experience with bears. Bears is now 3 years and 7 mos. And he is still wearing a diaper. I NEVER made potty learning an issue. Up until about May of this year. Then I think I bent to other people's pressure and I started to gently encourage it. Then about a month ago I realized that I was putting more pressure on him to use the potty then I ever thought I would. And I could see it starting to spiral into a power struggle. So, I gave up again. I mention it here and there. And I usually get one poop/day on the toilet!







I realized tonight that I even when we think we're being sensitive, we're not being sensitive ENOUGH to DS's fears. For instance, to DS, using the potty means that he's not a baby anymore. I've actually gotten this out of him. That's a big deal, and I just need to listen to him more.

More when I can, ladies. Thanks so much for keeping this thread going.


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## craftykitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Hi Mamas,

And potty learning! This is what's been on my mind A LOT lately, so I had to add my experience with bears. Bears is now 3 years and 7 mos. And he is still wearing a diaper. I NEVER made potty learning an issue. Up until about May of this year. Then I think I bent to other people's pressure and I started to gently encourage it. Then about a month ago I realized that I was putting more pressure on him to use the potty then I ever thought I would. And I could see it starting to spiral into a power struggle. So, I gave up again. I mention it here and there. And I usually get one poop/day on the toilet!







I realized tonight that I even when we think we're being sensitive, we're not being sensitive ENOUGH to DS's fears. For instance, to DS, using the potty means that he's not a baby anymore. I've actually gotten this out of him. That's a big deal, and I just need to listen to him more.











Right. A power struggle is *exactly* what potty learning can become very quikly with a spirited child. I found that *never* mentioning it did wonders for us. Kind of like the more you ask for your dh's help with laundry, the more obstinate about it he becomes. :LOL It's nagging. People with very strong wills don't like nagging at all. That is an absolute, from what I have learned. (I have *ehem* a bit of a strong will myself







) I just plain doesn't work. There were times that I caved to pressure and tried to get her to "just do it already". It just pushed her further away and annoyed her. I found that if I was *completely* non-chalant about her potty habits, she gained interest in the whole "big girl" thing and decided to try it out. Once she realized that though I was completely non-expectant, I was still pleased (enough to reward her!), she gained confidence. When she did it, she come tell me and I would act completely surprised and say "YOU went potty? No. Really? I didn't think you were THAT big! I guess I have no choice but to find a few skittles for you then. Humpf!"







She felt as though she had the upper hand.


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## craftykitty

Today is not a good day. I thought it would do me good to post here, before I lose it with her. I haqven't really yelled at her today (well, a tiny bit), but I've definately sounded irritated and annoyed more than I care to admit.









We had errands to do around lunch time today. She was good when I picked up some new diapers at a friend's house, she was great at the post office... then she begged for Sonic for lunch. *sigh*. Sonic is gross. I caved. "What would you like" I asked. "Grilled cheese", she says. "Are you sure?" I ask. "YES. GRILLED CHEESE. I WANT GRILLED CHEESE!!!!", she yells at me. I say, "I think we will leave without the grilled cheese if you aren't going to be kind to me, Annie. I really don't like the way you are treating me.". She shapes up, for the moment anyway. Fast forward to getting home. She sits at her little table happily with a strawberry fruit slush and her greasy grilled cheese and fries. I peek around the corner. "STOP looking at me." "Are you eating your lunch?", I want to know. "Yes, I already ate my sandwich", as she slurps her slushie and stuffs nasty fries into her mouth. I am suspicious. "Where is the wrapper from your sandwich?" . "In the trash". "Show me?". "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" (accompanied by shrieks and threatened tears). I look at the garbage and see a familiar silver wrapper poking out of the top. I walk over and pull out the stupid sandwich that I didn't want to buy in the first place with two teeny bites taken from it.







I don't do well with food wastage OR money wastage. If all she wanted was the d.amn slush, I would have bought her the d.amn slush and came home and made her a boca burger. ARGH! I take the slush and put in into the freezer. This incites Hurricane Analiyse with gale force winds within seconds.

I take her for her nap at this point. NOT fun. After much going back and forth, back and forth, she is still not sleeping 1.5 hours later.







THIS is a child that cannot yet survive without a nap. She is now asleep and I must go and wake her in 5 minutes to go get her brother from school. She will be sour when I wake her - most likely screaming through the entire trip (even the part where we walk up and get him from his teacher. Charming.).

Ahhhh. It does feel good to let it all out. I feel much more reasonable now.


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## mamapajama

Bearsmama,
I sit down at my computer, at the end of my rope (as I often am) with my 3 year old "spirited" "challenging" "defiant" ds and I see this thread and I just can't stop crying. I could have written your post. My two children are 3 and 1 and this last year has been so unbelievably difficult, with no end in sight. I haven't read all the replies but I look forward to sititng down when the kids go to bed.
Hug to you mama,
Michelle


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Pajama Momma... this is definately the place to be.

Thanks to all for the potty training reminders... how did I get hooked again? Like everyone else I somehow let other people's expectations get me. I don't care if he is in diapers. Dh said jokingly..."I am not going to change you when you are 10 so sometime you will have to learn to use the potty." To which I said, "Or change himself..." and we were both able to laugh about it. I am back on the wagon... it is his body. I can change diapers forever. Hey these are my last two babies, they won't need me forever.

Craftykitty- I hope the rest of the day went better than expected. Too bad when in some ways it really sounded like it was going ok... before the Sonic thing. I have found that if I give in to things begrudgingly, it is a real set up for a fight. Do or don't do, but you know you can't do and then expect her to understand that you didn't really want to do it.







Oh well, live and learn. Maybe it was all really about being tired and the only way out of those messes is sometimes to get to the blow out so you can get to the break.

Thanks everyone for all the positives.


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## mamapajama

I would just like to say that you mamas are all amazing. I can relate to so much of what I have read here tonite. It's like we all need another wise mama with us during the day to whisper "you are doing a good job. You can do this. You can find your patience. Your child is not psychotic (joke)." All the other jobs I have had, there is a manager, supervisor, someone to say "hey good job". Parents have to tell themselves that. I know I always feel my parenting skills are reflected in my child, who is very very intense. I get so tired of feeling embarrassed at ds behavior in public. He is a red haired freckle faced tornado. The funny thing is I worked with emotionally disturbed children for years. I have taken all kinds of classs on child development, dealt with extreme behaviors in kids etc, and I can't even get my child who is supposedly "normal" to stop hitting, or basically listen to me at all abt anything.

Re: potty learning. I stayed home for a few days, took off his diaper and asked if him throughout the day if he needed to use the potty to pee. He wa into it and started peeing in the potty no problem. He wears no diaper until he has to poop, and then he asks for a diaper and for some "privacy" which means a closet. When he is all done he comes out and demands we change him quickly so he doesn't get a rash. He absolutely will not poop in the potty.

Hugs to all you wonderful mamas


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## SilverWillow

.


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## MsMoMpls

Support my new business idea. Check out this thread for me and give me some feedback please.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...83#post3734683

Would you find having a parenting center like this supportive? I need feedback to take to donors. Thanks much.


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## loon13

That is exactly how I'm feeling after reading this beautiful thread.

So much fits me and my dd, it's uncanny. And I only have the ONE child so far.







to you mamas who have more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
We thought all kids were like her and I thought the reason it was so hard because I sucked as a mother.

sledg, your post really resonated with me.
I cannot tell you how many times I tell DH "It's me, I just don't know how to be a mom, I suck at this whole parenting thing." But then DH reminds me everytime: "You're a good mama. The fact that you care so much about being a good mama is very important right there."







: I still doubt myself but it helps for a short while to hear him say that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
What I see today? I see that there is nothing to blame. She is who she is and I am who I am.










Yes, absolutely. I still have moments where I look at dd and think "there's something wrong. I just have to find out what it is."
And then moments where I think, "she's an amazing little person, she's just fine the way she is".

I have made some changes to her diet, that seem to help both of us such as no processed food, little sugar, etc. So I don't discount the effect of diet, but I mostly remind myself that to accept her *as she is*.

Now that she is 3, her speech has *boomed* and her creativity and imaginative play are just amazing. And despite some sensory issues (the teethbrushing is a HUGE one; the preference to be naked in the house) and some sleep issues (just can't wind down), I can look back and see that some things that were a bigger issue when she was younger (i.e. hated the car seat, hated diaper changes, hated getting dressed at all), she has either outgrown or adapted or something.

It's becoming easier trust that she will turn out okay. Although, I still doubt myself so much!


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## craftykitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
:

Now that she is 3, her speech has *boomed* and her creativity and imaginative play are just amazing. And despite some sensory issues (the teethbrushing is a HUGE one; the preference to be naked in the house) and some sleep issues (just can't wind down), I can look back and see that some things that were a bigger issue when she was younger (i.e. hated the car seat, hated diaper changes, hated getting dressed at all), she has either outgrown or adapted or something.

!

Hey! You just wrote a whole paragraph about *my* daughter! How did you know? Heeeeey.... do you have cameras on us?


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## hhurd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
. This is the most important thread to me. It shatters the image of normal that I tend to carry around in my head.

Another mom with a challenging (to say the least) 3 yo ds signing on.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *craftykitty*
Hey! You just wrote a whole paragraph about *my* daughter! How did you know? Heeeeey.... do you have cameras on us?









Oh shoot! You caught me! :LOL

Seriously, this is why I love MDC: just when I think I'm alone in the world, I find another mama here who can totally relate.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in tonight. I have







for loon, craft, TEAKS (of course!), hhurd. HUGS and lots of them to all of you struggling mamas.

I have a question tonight that may or may not pertain to many of you. So, if it does, good. If it doesn't, I'm sorry to be so self-absorbed.







: And this one is probably for Maureen. And I'm sure sledg has some wise words, too. So, here it goes: If one has guilt and shame about how they've parented...OKAY, if I have all this guilt and shame on a daily basis. Even when it feels like I'm trying so, so hard every day to change (and sometimes making minuscule changes when MONUMENTAL ones are needed). Well, what do I DO with these feelings? B/c I think, more times than not, THIS is what trips me up. I get caught up in my own crap so easily. And I don't/can't just "get over" stuff easily. How do I get over the deep shame I feel from the last year of my son's life?

I feel like I need a do-over. Isn't it called a Mulligan in golf? Well, I need a mulligan.

Love and hugs to all of you.


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## loon13

I am not what I would call an experienced mama, but I have struggled most of my life with how to deal with guilt and shame over mistakes. I can relate.
And parenting certainly highlights it, doesn't it?

In fact, ... <whispers> there's a small part of me that tells myself I want a second child because "I can do better this time, I won't make the same mistakes I did with dd."







:














:

I don't think you are self-absorbed. Guilt and shame are very powerful emotions. They are designed so to make us stop and reflect on our actions and consider that we need to change them.
I'm trying not to deny them but feel them. Stuffing them only makes them build up over time.

I'm trying to use these feelings. I trying to use them as an incentive to do better rather than using them to berate myself and tell myself "I am crap, I can't do anything right."
I'm trying to shift perspective and think "What I have done is making me feel guilty. Okay, fine. Is there a better action to take? A different action to take? What can I do to change directions?"

I also try to keep in mind "How would I help dd if she were struggling with this?"
I have told her before "It's okay to make mistakes, and it's okay to feel disappointed when we make them. But mistakes help us learn how to try to do better the next time."
Of course, then I feel hypocritical because I'm not believing that with myself.







So I try again.

So many times I will look at her sleeping after she has (finally!) fallen asleep for the night, and I will start to mentally kick myself for what I did wrong that day. I have to force myself to stop that line of thinking. I try to find at least one positive thing that happened that day. Then I make a goal for tomorrow. "Tomorrow I'm going to try to..."

I remember reading somewhere that we do not need to be perfect for our children because that only gives them an impossibly high standard to live up to. Our children need to see us making mistakes and then deal with those mistakes. We need to role model that, just as we role model good hygiene, safety, etc.

This is by no means an easy thing of course. For me it's something that I need to practice, practice, practice.

Sorry to ramble and







. As you can see, I'm still working through it myself.

BTW, do you notice how many times I have use the word "try" in this post?


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
So, here it goes: If one has guilt and shame about how they've parented...OKAY, if I have all this guilt and shame on a daily basis. Even when it feels like I'm trying so, so hard every day to change (and sometimes making minuscule changes when MONUMENTAL ones are needed). Well, what do I DO with these feelings? B/c I think, more times than not, THIS is what trips me up. I get caught up in my own crap so easily. And I don't/can't just "get over" stuff easily. How do I get over the deep shame I feel from the last year of my son's life?

So glad to hear from you. Sometimes I feel like you are my pop quiz... such powerful questions that so many mommas are dealing with. I hope you are aware how valuable it is that you are strong enough to put your darkest stuff out there, even it is here. So many mothers are reading these words and finding strength to admit their own struggles...

Ok- Shame and Guilt 101. Shame is a learned response to the idea that mistakes are not ok. That making a mistake makes you bad. That you are bad not your behavior. This is why we are all trying to use GD, because we hope to raise children without shame. I am pretty lucky that my parents didn't use shame. I feel lots and lots of guilt (which I am working on) but very little shame.

For me that means my good Catholic upbringing said you should always try to do your best, try very hard not to "sin". So when I mess up, I always feel like I could have done better... but I never feel like sh#t. (Hardly ever







) I feel like a basically good person who did a bad thing. See how powerfully different that is?

Shame is a deep dark hole of despair that convinces us that we aren't even worth trying to redeem. Here is all I can say... DONT GO THERE. Learn to identify the horrible sick feeling in your gut that is shame and get out of there as fast as possible. I know it is easier said than done. Use your best mommy voice and tell yourself that "I don't always love your behavior but I always love you." A million times a day until it sinks in.

As to guilt... guilt is supposed to illicit action. I am driving down the road and see a cop car in my rear view mirror and immediately take my foot off the gas pedal. Then I check my speed and figure out if I actually have anything to feel guilty about. The problem with most mommas, me included is that we feel guilty and can't figure out if we are "speeding" or not. Are we wrong or is this normal? I think we should feel just a little guilty about losing it with our kids because it helps us try to do better next time. But feeling guilty about everything gets kind of ridiculous, right? You have to try checking yourself and figuring out if you have something to feel guilty about or if you are just going to guilt out of all sorts of social pressures that are highly destructive to mothers.

Has anyone ever read "A Potent Spell" by Janna Malamud Smith? It is so powerful. She traces mother guilt and how society has made mothers so overly responsible for their children's well being that we can't ever get it right. She goes back to Puritan beliefs that if a child died, it likely was a result of the mother's sins. Boy is that idea still alive and destructive for women. She says that after that, it transformed into the idea that a children's emotional well being and behavior was all about the mother- Freud and Spock and society in general puts everything on us except the real power to create healthy communities for our families. Powerful stuff... makes our mother guilt a political issue and I refuse to be held responsible for our societies failure to serve children well.

Ok... you hit my most favorite soap box so this could go on for pages and pages. Heal your souls mommas.... your guilt and shame is not serving you or your children. If you are going to "get" GD, you must do it for you... in your heart. Heal yourself and your kids will be just fine.


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## Bearsmama

Loon-Thanks for sharing. More later...









And Maureen-THANK YOU. I don't have much time, but thank you. Someone once described shame to me in much the same way as you just did. That it's like having "secret swiss cheese insides". Someone also said to me once that shame sort of festers in those dark areas, and bringing it to the light lets it "dry up". Can ya tell I know a little bit about this feeling??? irked:

Healing myself is my life's greatest challenge and my second biggest is raising DS#1. I'm sure those two endeavors or more closely linked then I even want to believe.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Healing myself is my life's greatest challenge and my second biggest is raising DS#1. I'm sure those two endeavors or more closely linked then I even want to believe.

I can certainly identify with this.

Ok, so as long as no one minds, I'm gonna vent for a moment. I'm having a particularly challenging time with Cole in kindergarten. I posted a thread about his issues with his teacher in GD that explains what's going on with him but I think the even harder part is dealing with myself. I'm aware that I'm overly sensitive about him. *I* know how frustrating he can be but I've never had to deal with other people caring for him. He's been home with me except for preschool. His preschool teacher was wonderful with him but he only went one day a week AND he was with his twin. Kindergarten is completely different for us. I met with his teacher about the notes she was sending home and sorta thought things were gonna be alright. Then yesterday I received another note about him making noises in class. Now to keep anyone from having to search for my thread, the teacher was having trouble with him staying seated while the other kids were finishing their work.

I feel so responsible. I feel like she's sending home this notes expecting me to do something about this and I feel completely powerless. Goodness knows if I was able to get him to tone down his personality I would probably have already done so. It certainly would've made my life easier for the past few years, that's for sure. It's just kinda like those people who look at you in the grocery store when your child is running up the aisles, arms stretched out, like he's at an airport... they get those looks on their faces like "OMG, can she not DO anything with that child?!" Yeah, well there I am... staring it in the face and sheepishly shrugging my shoulders.

The good part of it is that I'm at a place where I'm comfortable with him. I know he's gonna have to follow the rules at school and I also know he's gonna have trouble with that. But what I can't seem to reconcile in my head is how much of that do I try to fix? I don't want to seem like a parent that doesn't care at all and just ignores it but I also think that the issues she's having with him are small potatoes for Cole. I mean, I was glad when he came home the first day and the school was still standing <she says only half joking>.

Anyway, I just had to get that out of my head. I







this thread.


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## Autumnschild

I love this thread!

I too am mother to a challenging 3yo daughter. She gets so angry these days and I can easily blame myself for recently leaving her dad, moving out, and then reconciling and moving back home. I've tried to be patient with her but with all of the stress I was under, I know I've fallen short. She gets so angry about anything these days. But I'm tired of feeling guilty about everything. Yes, my actions affect her groth and development, her memories and her life. And the fact that I acknowledge the damage done and am willing to find a way to make it change shows me that I am a mindful parent doing the best I can do. We also have a 1yo, and the stress of dealing with a willful 3yo and a needy baby isn't easy either. So far no one has told me it will get easier, so I assume I'll just have to get better at mothering them.

I try not to have expectations, but society has set these expectations for us and they are hard to ignore. I do not have docile obediant children. They are curious, strong-willed, free-spirited, and a tad defiant







at times...but would I have it any other way?

Back in the days before I had children, I remember loving a song because it made me think of the kind of children I might have. It's on the Live album, Throwing Copper. The song is the last one and isn't titled or listed, but the chorus goes like this: "She rode a horse into my head. She won't discipline the children...and now they're running wild on the beach, and I don't care...no, I don't care." It may seem silly, but whenever my dd gets that crazy look in her eye with her hair flying all about, if I think of that song, all I can do is love her.


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## Breathe

Hey Bearsmama, I've read nothing but your OP, but wanted to quickly say that yet again you and I are living parallel lives! (Is oceanbaby going to show up later in this thread . . .she's my other doppelganger!) A RL friend sent me a link to this thread bc she sees the similarities, too, primarily that the past year since ds2 was born has been utter HELL and I feel I have screwed things up ROYALLY by not being loving and/or kind enough to ds1. Ay yi yi. I've been so out of it that I haven't even been around MDC enough to know that you were going thru the same thing! I will say (also in case it's while before I get back) that things suddenly are lightening up around here . . . so there is light at the end of the tunnel. We've seen a big shift since ds2 became a toddler (i.e. more "human" like than baby like, I think).

It may take a while to get thru the thread, but I'm eager to (why can't the world just go on PAUSE sometimes?!?) so I can chime in. Thanks for your honesty, as usual!

Love,
Breathe


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Healing myself is my life's greatest challenge and my second biggest is raising DS#1. I'm sure those two endeavors or more closely linked then I even want to believe.

I would go farther and say that for me, parenting well is all about getting to know myself, healing myself and accepting myself. When I thought of the two as separate things I had a much harder time. It was an incredibly long and painful labor for me to reach the point where I recognized how intertwined the two were. It was a really amazing moment the first time I was aware of the thoughts, feelings and desires I was having that perpetuated the very patterns I was trying to break in my parenting. It was a little shocking, and not really a pleasant experience. But this was really the start of making my relationships with my kids healthier. And ironically, the more time I spent trying to be aware of what was going on within myself and coming to terms with it the better, more focused a mother I was. What started out feeling very self-centered became the key to giving more generously and compassionately to my children. When I began to heal and forgive myself, I had more to give my children.

The next and equally important step was forgiving myself, which went hand in hand with accepting myself "as is." I really like what Maureen said about shame and guilt. I think shame is not only not helpful, but really keeps us down. I agree that a big part of motherly shame is that cultural message that we are totally responsible, 100%, in every way for what happens to our kids and how our kids behave and the type of people they become as adults. It really does come from a culture that believes mistakes are not okay. It's being graded in school and learning that mistakes are not acceptable, it's the message in much media that children are so fragile and easily damaged for life by common parental mistakes, for some of us it's religious background or the parenting we received. As Maureen said, shame is a value judgment: we're bad because we make mistakes. I think that overcoming shame and finding forgiveness for myself has been one of the hardest things I've ever done, and I though I've reached a point where it's a lot easier I still struggle with it. I think the key to overcoming it is to recognize that mistakes are okay, that being human is okay, and that there is so much more to ourselves than our mistakes. It's hard work. It helps me to remember that to forgive myself is not to say that what I did was okay, but just to let go of the shame so I can move on and do better things.

Guilt has it's uses, as Maureen said. It's a signal that something needs attention. You've recognized you made a mistake and you need to do something to make it right.

I say take your Mulligan. Tomorrow is a new day. Do over. This has been my mantra many days. "That sucked, I so did the wrong thing. Time for a do over." It's not easy to let it go, but each moment is a chance for a fresh start. You can't go back, so you have to let it go. It does no good, and maybe a lot of harm, to keep dwelling on mistakes-it prevents you from moving on and making changes.

I will take this moment to point out my new sig: "By seeing the ideals as a path rather than a destination, I could relax and enjoy the journey." Ideals are a model, a guide, an inspiration. Ideals are not a prescription or a means of measuring our worth.


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## craftykitty

I'm really sleepy, so I may not be too coherant.....

In regards to shame and guilt ~ I look into my childhood when I feel the thorns of guilt or shame stabbing me. When I think of my stepfather, I get a bad overall feeling. I feel like a scared child again, like nothing I do is right (in fact I feel shame when I think of him). When I think of my mother, I feel warm and loved and I smile. Why the different sets of feelings for two people who lived in the same home? My stepfather did not parent me with love. He parented me with an iron hand (or belt or stick or whatever else he could find) and a sharp toungue. I don't remember him ever saying "I love you", even though he had raised me from 2 yrs of age. My mother screwed up plenty of times, for sure. I do remember a *few* times of crazy PMS and locking herself in her room crying, etc., etc.... She also spanked me with a wooden spoon (that's what she thought was the "right thing to do" at the time. I know that the difference in feelings that thoughts of those two people conjur for me is solely based on the love factor. It all boils down to feeling intense love from my mother and not from my stepfather. I won't go as far as to say that you can't screw up if you tell your kids everyday how much you love them and shower them in kisses and hugs, but I will say that I think it would be hard. Of course we have messed up. of course we will do it again. The thing is, we are here together talking about our babies and how we can be better mamas to them. That says it all right there. We LOVE our children and they know it. They do. When it comes down to it, one day as adults, when they think of us - they won't get a sour feeling in the pits of their somachs because occasionally we screwed up and screamed, yelled, tantrumed or maybe even popped their behinds. They will have warm fuzzies when they think of us, because that love supercedes all else.


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## ilovebeingamom

Thank you to Bearsmama (Hi!) and all of you moms who have posted such well thought, from the gut, in the trenches, and inspirational posts. I have had this thread on my computer for the last two days, reading it when I could.

I don't know if I would label Gavin as having high needs personality, or if he is just high needs for me (as in I can't handle normal 4 year old behavior). I am not familiar with boys, and I think this is part of my problem. I do not think by any means that Gavin is an "easy" child or ever has been. But I think that in many ways our personalities clash and make it harder than it has to be. Anyway, I too have felt such a sadness since dd has been born, I second the notion of the feeling that the past year for Gavin has been lost in so many ways. I did delay having a second child for a while, because I wasn't sure I could handle another before that. Gavin was 3 1/2 when Nora was born. He was a child that needed almost 100% of my attention, and of course after the baby was born he went down to about 25%. It is starting to get easier every day. I do see some anger in him yet, as in many times when I am not looking or not in the room Nora will usually start crying as Gavin has done something yet again to hurt her.

I feel split because I don't feel like I can coo over Nora as much because it seems that Gavin takes it as a negative towards him every time I give Nora a complement. I always give him a complement as well, but I can tell it doesn't mean as much. And when I am always after him about hurting his sister, etc., it is hard to be glowing towards him at times.

We went through some bad times in the past year. We have improved so much. I will admit that I was swatting him several times a month for awhile, but thankfully that is over. I posted for help on mothering, and I regained control of myself, and now am just working on the yelling and giving him the angry face all the time. What has helped our family is the book "Kid Cooperation" by Elizabeth Pantley. I know many of you have read dozens of books, but this is what worked for us. I am not sure what gentle discipline completely entails, but this book did give us the idea of posting house rules and consequences. We picked five things to become house rules and posted them. There were some easy ones and some harder ones. Big one was no screaming or whining. If he does that he has to spend five minutes in his room. We do give him a chance to rephrase his request the appropriate way (and we model it for him), and if he can't handle it then the time out. This was just the thing that drove me bonkers, and after about a week he did so much better. He was screaming at me constantly and bossing me around and had basically no manners. I heard him having a tantrum the other day (I was rocking Nora to sleep and dh was with him), and realized that he hadn't had a tantrum in weeks. In our case, Gavin needed a little more structure. He also liked knowing upfront what was expected of him rather than trying to guess every day what we wanted. He may also be a little older than some of your children, he is 4 1/2, so I thought it was time that these behaviors improved.

I went off on a tangent, sorry. I did want to say that I appreciate the discussion on shame and guilt, because I had so much of it myself. I have major issues with feeling like I need to be the perfect parent and have the perfect children. Someone on page one I think talked about her worries that if her child is angry, then he will grow into an angry adult, etc. That is so me! Every time Gavin goes through a stage, I worrry that he is going to get stuck in it and become a horrible person. I am extremely hard on myself. I do have to step back and like craftkitty said, know that he knows that I love him, and would do anything for him. He does get lots of hugs and kisses and back scratches and etc. I agree in the end, this is what he will remember the most.

Thank you all for helping me realize that, and sharing your stories. I think I am going to print this out so I will have it to read when I need it in the future! Thank you again!


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas-
For some reason, I wasn't getting the updates, and I didn't know there had been any replies since I last posted. I am reading, reading, reading, reading, trying to catch up and I'll post more asap. Thanks for keeping this thread going.


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## MsMoMpls

Well I just got back from 4 days with my mom and my two little ones. She lives 5 hours away and I somehow can't stand to spend much time with her without feeling unloved... no matter what she says. This time I chose to go with the idea that I was chosing to go, chosing to have an adventure with my boys and keeping my expectations low. All I asked of her was to take time off to just play with us. I went in a very good place and it worked out pretty well.

I did figure out within about 2 hours that my mother is very critical and judgemental and somehow I had thought she only did that to me. Maybe I only notice when I am in the receiving end. But she is critical of everyone, and I know that this critical nature is really destructive to her. She has been in AA for like 15 years and sober but still really struggles with finding any inner peace. I got to accept her this weekend and not make it about me. Now I know she judges my parenting because she judges everything. EVERYTHING. Nothing in her life is just ok. I will never be a good enough parent because she can never be a good enough parent... and now that is only her problem... not so much mine.

She told me a story about my sister's husband who is a bit of a hovering father- they adopted their only child at birth 18 months ago... who can blame him for hovering. She hates that he sometimes has a hard time when the baby cries when he leaves for work. My mother has always preached say goodbye and then just go, staying around just makes it harder on everyone. I don't really disagree with my mom but her statement was "He doesn't know what kind of damage he is doing to that boy." Wow! No way is hovering "damaging" in any sense I can make. How sad that this is how she thinks about making mistakes or doing things less than perfect. It also explains why she can't really face any mistakes she has made, they would just be too big.

I am not sure how that fits with all this but I am kicking that judgemental part of my mom out of my head. That means I am going to work on being more accepting of people, not run around with some kind of measuring tape of parenting.

I think my adventure was fantastic. I really did playful parenting the whole time. I do believe that the thing that messes up my parenting most often is housework. I had such a fantastic time enjoying the kids and they were perfect... well perfect kids. If I never clean my house or try to get anything done, I rock... well my goal is more playful minutes and more housework after bedtime....

Hang in there mommas.


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## Yooper

Ack. I am back. We were having a couple of "good" weeks. Actually they were not good but dd has been sick which somehow softens my temper.

She has turned into an absolute monster during the illness and now that she is better, it seems that her behavior is getting worse. I am at my rope's end. She will not sleep! She pulled every last thread of patience yesterday and dh had a band rehearsal so he did not get home until her bedtime. I seriously needed a break and dd is her most challenging at bedtime. Dh agreed to take over. No dice. She screamed mommy mommy mommy for about 5 minutes until i caved and went up there. I was very angry at this point. I have been running on empty for weeks and here I cannot even get a shower break. I just could not put on a happy face for two hours of sleep evasion. I lost it. after one hour she was still getting up and singing songs. I was so mean. I told her she was a "very bad girl" and that she would have to go to sleep alone because I needed to leave the room. She of course screamed her head off and I had to go back in before the door even shut all the way. This made me even more mad. I kept not-too-gently laying her back down getting madder and madder until dd actually asked for dh. Phew. So he went in while I cried uncontrollably downstairs with regret and guilt. I KNOW these things are wrong and damaging but there seems ot be this line at which once crossed, I cannot get rational control of my temper. So far no spanking but it seems to get closer and closer every day. At 12:30 (three hours after this fiasco started) dh finally came back down. Even though I am very sleep deprived and dd wakes at 7am no matter what (not to mention about once eveyr two hours during the night as well), we stayed up to talk about strategy for a while.

I feel like such a failure every day. I cannot keep my cool. Every little thing she does seems to have the sole purpose of pushing my buttons. It starts upon waking and except for a one hour nap that usually requires I sit with her the whole time, I am on. she sleeps less per 24 hours than I personally need myself. So even if I go to bed with her and put up with the two hour mess-around-a-thon, I still do not get what I need.

Sorry to vent. It has been a bad week







I want to get better. I want to be a better parent. I fear that she is going to grow up with memories of a frustrated and angry mother.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Bears has major issues with allowing us to take care of his basic hygiene. Tooth brushing, hair washing, bathing, hand washing before dinner, YOU NAME IT. I know with some other issues, his behavior has improved when we've stopped making it an issue. But how can we stop making his hygiene an issue? We've given up so much in terms of trying to parent him. We don't micromanage, really, we don't. But are we supposed to give up this basic stuff, too? Won't his teeth fall out? .

BTDT

As for his teeth falling out, I'd say it depends. When I had young babies I went a long time without brushing regularly sometimes. No cavities and in fact the dentist said I took really good care of my teeth









I've been through all those struggles.

This sounds crazy but singing silly songs sometimes helped. I'd make up the silliest song and sing it. It worked for diaper changes and later tooth brushing.

I had huge hair combing struggles. Oldest went around looking like a wild animal for years. He has super curly hair that gets all dready when it's not combed. When he was 5 he decided to cut it rather than get it combed.

With the other 2, I started combing daily when they were babies. It worked for them.

In our experience sometimes things have to be done and there will be screaming (as there was for several years with schoolwork and the oldest) but it does help if the adults can remain calm.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
And, potty learning...I have a 3 year old who can read better than many 8 year olds, but she refuses to potty learn. I refuse to push the issue because I just don't want the power struggle and I don't think it will help. But, when every other 3 year old we see is out of diapers, it can be hard. I even had one mother tell me that her daughter couldn't interact with mine because she didn't want TEAK to cause hers to backslide into diapers. .


I'm in feisty mood today so watch out









The other mom is full of it. 3 is on the young side to potty train. If she were 5, then I'd be making sure there's no physical probelm but not at 3.

It's none of their ____ business if your daughter is trained or not. Sheesh.


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## chicagomom

Wow, can't believe I missed this thread. Thanks for sharing your stories. Our 5.5 yo ds fits right in here too. Sometimes I think my head will explode.

Our biggest challenge right now is transitions, esp leaving playdates when he's having fun. He sabotages his own friendships by yelling 'I hate you, you're not my friend anymore, I had a terrible time' when I tell him it's time to go. Warnings (20 min-1 min) don't help. Anyone got strategies for this one?


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## Bearsmama

Hey Maureen







: I totally spaced on responding to you question about the parenting utopia center. I have a three word answer: YES, YES, YES! I can't find the link to your actual thread on this topic, but if you're reading, I think it's a wonderful idea. Also, if you are reading, please post me the link again and I can check out your plans.

Oh, and there have been some additional replies here since I last checked in. Thanks again for keeping this thread going, mamas. I'll reply/post more when I can. Bed calls.


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## Bearsmama

BTW, TEAKs, Bear is not "potty trained" either. He is 3 years & 8 months old. We're working on it, but he refuses to wear underwear for the moment.


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## craftykitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
BTW, TEAKs, Bear is not "potty trained" either. He is 3 years & 8 months old. We're working on it, but he refuses to wear underwear for the moment.


Hey, trust me... don't worry about it. Analiyse is 3 yrs and 4 months and is potty trained. She gets my my LAST nerve every day about once every two hours when she shows up in front of me in nothing but a t-shirt. I ask her where her panties are and she runs off. She goes through about....oh, 8 pairs of panties a DAY?







I don't think it makes much of difference for her to use the potty. I wash more panties than I would diapers. :LOL She's going through some private area obsession phase. She's just fascinated with her girl parts right now. A couple of days ago, she colored her vulva with a purple marker.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in on this thread. I've returned to see some posts that I think I missed responding to.

Marybeth, yooper, chicago, BREATHE-Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hope you find some support here in parenting your challenging child(ren).

Well, Bears started preschool last week. We may still very well be in a "honeymoon" phase, but he really, really likes it! Surprise! Actually, I really wasn't surprised. But just so relieved that this transition so far has gone well. The 3 hour/day break for me from Bears is amazing. It makes me appreciate him so, so much more. And while I'm home parenting the other child, and sometimes even getting some time in for myself (







), he's in a great environment learning so much. I've found that just this simple structure to our day has really helped me have a different framework to our lives. I said to DH last week that I can't believe that I've done this non-stop, no break, no structured activity, little outside help or diversions for almost 4 years!!







I really do think this is going to be a good thing for my boy and a good thing for our relationship.

Tonight we had some issues with bedtime. Which isn't that unusual. But we have a sick baby who needs some extra TLC and Bears just doesn't do well with too much attention placed elsewhere. I said a few things I regret. No, I'm not a name caller, but I sometimes channel someone (maybe my mother? I'm not sure.) that is a threatener. Tonight, like many nights I said to Bears when he was giving us a hard time, "In order for all of us to sleep comfortably in this bed, you have to realize that we all have needs. Your brother needs to go to sleep. Mama needs to have a less-stressful time at night. And you need to go to sleep". When his behavior worsened, I said something like, "You can go sleep on the wood floor in your room if you don't blah-blah-blah if you don't like it here". Now, up until yesterday there was no furniture in his official bedroom, just the wood floors, b/c we were doing some home renovations. But I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS COMMENT CAME FROM AT ALL. I was so angry. SOOOO ANGRY. When he woke his brother up, I said something like, "This is your fault". Well, it was, but I could have been a little less harsh about the whole thing.

Okay, I'm being completely self-absorbed here. There are many of us, I know that could share this minute details of our lives as parents. But I guess I felt the need to share and get this out before it sits for too long and festers. I don't want to continue any of this shame crap with my children, and sometimes these little bits of nastiness come out. UGH.







:

Thanks, again, for listening, mamas.


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## Bearsmama

Paging Maureen???

For tonight's outburst, I immediately apologized to Bears. I held him and said that he would never have to sleep on the floor (unless he wanted to). That it was something silly that I said b/c I was getting so, so angry and I wasn't dealing with it well.

I have a therapist friend who says that parents need to love their kids and be accountable for their actions. The rest is details. I'm hoping that I'm holding myself accountable by apologizing.

I realize that this thread has sort of veered off course and has become more of a general support thread. Mainly support for ME!!! :LOL Is that allowed? Entire threads dedicated to helping one mama through???


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## Magella

Bearsmama,







I can so relate to the nighttime thing. E (my spirited, challenging, intense blessing) has always had a difficult time going to sleep. For the past year or so the main problem has been just talking-too loudly and too much. We have 5 people in our family bed. At the kids' bedtime, I lay down with all 3 kids until my youngest is asleep. There are times now, and there were innumerable times in the past, when E has interfered with the other children falling asleep or has woken one of the other kids with her fussing. It is extremely frustrating and irritating. I don't remember when it started to get better. She has chosen to sleep in her own room for periods of time off and on for a couple of years now. But at some point we said "It's not fair for you to keep the other kids awake. If you continue to make noise you will have to go to your room." And then that's just what we did (and of course that led to tantrums, even when we were right there willing to help her sleep). Since we made that rule, we've also had to escort D to his room a couple of times (they are always welcome back in our room when they're ready to rest quietly). We seldom have a problem anymore, though we often have to remind E or D of this rule. We really hesitated to do this, because we want our children to feel welcome in our room and we don't want their own rooms to feel like a punishment. But it is the only way to keep any semblance of calm and an atmosphere that allows everyone to actually fall asleep, and I don't think it's unreasonable.

I will share with you my most shameful moment, not because it will make you feel better but because I think it's important for all moms to know that others make the same mistakes. I also have a problem with getting frustrated to the point where I make threats and say things I will regret later and blame my child for what's happening. I have this vivid and painful memory of the time when I was no older than 7 years old: I was crying about something-maybe wanting another story, who knows-at bedtime. I had come out of my room to say something to my mother. I don't remember what I said, but her response was "If you don't like the rules here, you can pack your bags and go live somewhere else." That was so awful to hear, and I swore that I would never, ever say that to my children. You know what's coming: I said it.

I don't remember what was going on. This was a good 2 years ago, so E might've been 3 or 4. Whatever was happening, it involved one of her stellar tantrums and I was completely frustrated and exasperated and feeling helpless to make life better in any way. And I said it: "Why don't you go find some other mommy to live with?!" Where did that come from? From the helplessness, from a feeling of wanting to escape, from the anger, from feeling like a horrible parent, from feeling like E and I didn't fit so well as mother and daughter. From memories of my childhood, from focusing on the feelings I so desperately didn't want to be having and on the things I so desperately didn't want to say that I couldn't see anything else. I felt like I didn't deserve children after that, I felt ashamed, I felt awful. So I did the only thing I could do, I apologized and told her that of course I didn't want her to live anywhere else, I want her living right here with me. And I told her how much it hurt when my own mother said it to me. She asked lots of questions, which I did my best to answer. And I told her even mommies make mistakes. I told her I said it because I didn't know what else to do, and it was wrong to say it. I hope she doesn't remember it, but if she does I hope she remembers that I was so very sorry. My own mother never apologized.

I have made threats, and I have blamed. I have said "It's your fault! Look at what you did! You woke him up!" Not good. I have found that I can say "You were very loud, and your baby sister woke up. She wasn't ready to wake up. Naptime is quiet time" and that's a whole lot better. This parenting stuff isn't easy, especially when your child is so very intense, so very difficult to parent. When all you want is for things to be easy for just one day, or even one hour. When you resent how difficult it is, and hate how helpless and incompetent you feel in the face of the most difficult behaviors. When the simplest things in life take so much time and herculean effort.

It gets better. It did for us, though we still have plenty of tough times (but I handle the tough times so much better now). I had to really take a look at where the threats and blaming and such come from. It's as simple as having a bad role model, and yet not that simple because it involved a lot of unrealistic expectations of both my child and myself. As she gets older, more mature, her behavior becomes easier to deal with. As I grow as a mother I find better ways of interacting with her.

It takes a strong parent to see their mistakes and apologize to their child. That is not an easy thing-it highlights our weaknesses in a way. And I think that seeing that mom makes mistakes and can (and does) apologize is a real blessing to children. I don't think my memory of my mother telling me to move out would've been so painful if she'd apologized and told me she really loves me and wants to keep me. Think of how much that apology means to a child-it shows your child it's not all his fault, it shows him you care, it shows him you love him, and it shows him that no one is perfect.

I'm so glad Bears is enjoying preschool and that you're getting a little respite! Take care. Thank you for sharing all that you share. It's so important for moms to know others have a hard time and make mistakes. I spent way too long thinking I was the only mom to have the feelings and challenges I had, and I thought I was an absolutely horrible mom because of it. And I couldn't become a better mom until I realized that mistakes are part of being human and part of learning to be a parent.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, sledg-Saying thank you seems so small in the face of what you've given me with your honesty.







I only have a minute or two at the computer b/c I stealing time here, but your words MEAN SO MUCH TO ME. I, too, have many shameful moments from my childhood. And I swore I would not do to my son what was done to me by my mother. And I thought if I didn't say the words, the actual WORDS that my mother said to me, then I was doing okay. Well, I've had a few shameful moments with Bears. Okay, a lot more than a few. And it doesn't happen every day, every week, etc. In fact, it hasn't happened in a long time. But last night was one of them. I didn't know where it came from at the moment, but I certainly do today. It's my desperation, fear, everything coming through. I've said to him before that perhaps I should go back to work and daddy can stay home with him. And a few other not too wonderful things that I don't even have the time or energy (or humility) to share here right now. Suffice it to say that my mother never apologized, and I am doing my best to at least right that wrong. And I think being accoutable is a good start.

I will write more later when I have more time. Thank you, thank you, thank YOU, sledg.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey a whole thread committed to Bearsmamma seems perfectly reasonable to me. Especially because you are brave enough to speak for so many mommas who will never post their mistakes, never risk being judged or questioned. I love sledg's post. If threatening to make a kid sleep on the floor or telling that "this is your fault" in frustration is going to damage a child, I don't think any of them would make it.

I was reading some stuff about dieting that said that your goal should be to eat really well 80% of the time and know that this is good enough. This should be our mantra for life! From now on lets parent fantastically 80% of the time and be proud.

nak... more later

Maureen


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## Breathe

Must be quick . . . dh waiting for romance (







:LOL







), but had to chime in and say that NOTHING raises my mama RAGE like ds1 waking up ds2. I actually see red and shake all over in my body's attempt to vent the rage so it doesn't explode out onto his 4-yr-old head. Or throat. Or rear-end. You get the picture.

Hugs to all you mamas who have raged over the premature end to a baby's slumber!


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## Bearsmama

Breathe-Glad to know I'm not alone. I, too, literally see RED. And this happens very frequently.

Like tonight, for instance. Bears is sick. Fell asleep quickly and soundly. When I left the bed (yes, I lay down with him until he's asleep), he started waking. And no coercing, no encouraging, no soft voice mama-speak could help him from screeching, screaming, yelling "NO!" when all I simply asked was for him to put his head back down on the pillow.

It just infuriates me. It's been going on for a year now. The "baby" is now almost 14 months old. I definitely have big triggers, and waking or disturbing the younger one, or daddy or mommy, when we're sleeping is a BIG one. The others happen to be any kind of physical pain (like when he's hit me), and breaking things. I can be the 80% okay mama until one of the above things happen. Then, I bubble over like a crazy woman.

Maureen-I love sledg's post, too. It resonated with me, like so much else that's been written here since this thread began. I like the 80% thing. Sounds like being "good enough". Isn't that a book? The Good Enough Parent?

Anyway, since Bears is sitting here on the couch with us now, pretending he's asleep while we watch the Dylan documentary, I better go. More when I can. And thanks for continuuing this discussion and for indulging me so often here, ladies.


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## Bearsmama

Since everyone seems okay with this thread being completely and unequivocably about me, can I bring up another topic?









Resentment. I know as mamas we're not "supposed" to feel this toward a child. But gosh darnit, I think that I definitely harbor some resentment toward Bears. No, I do not show him this in our normal, day-to-day activities. But when I flip out, or yell, or whatever, I think some small kernal of it is my resentment coming out. Yes, I totally believe that most of my anger comes from fear, from feeling helpless, etc. But the R word is something that keeps coming up for me.

I think I resent that I KNOW in my heart and in my head that Bears is here to teach me something, and if I just sloooooooowed down to hear it, it might change and heal me. I don't want something else in life to be hard, so, so hard. I've had enough hard.

I think I also harbor this resentment b/c Bears turned my world upside down. He was an extremely high-needs baby. Never slept. I'm not kidding. I've spoken about this before, but he was about two years old before he slept "through the night". And that's our definition of through the night. He never allowed us to sleep, to rest, to recharge, to connect as a couple. And of course, I realize how this is sounding right now. But if I could pretend for a minute that you are all my therapists, and that I can say whatever I want, this is my truth. And when we thought things would get better, they didn't. He's still high maintenance, still highly-spirited, so challenging on a daily basis. Nothing is a given with Bears. Nothing.

So, all of this has made me question myself, my parenting, what I thought parenting was supposed to be, etc, etc. Out of this has come this small bit of resentment. I resent that nothing has gone "by the book" or come easily to us in parenting Bears. He has thrown us for a loop in every single way since the moment of his birth (and btw, his birth was really rough. Hmmmm?).

Anyway, so there. I said it. I let it out. DH and I have talked about this, but this is the first time I've really layed (sp) it all out. I know I have to get past this to move on, to free myself up to parent my best.

Thank you for listening. And I hope someone out there can relate to this.


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## Magella

Ooooh, my favorite topic to get on my soapbox about is the negative feelings we mamas all have but that we're not _supposed_ to feel. Ready?









I would like to know who decided we aren't supposed to feel resentment (or any other negative feelings for that matter). I haven't talked to a lot of moms about negative feelings, mainly because I don't feel close enough to many moms to do so. But when I have talked to my closest friends about negative feelings, they too have said they feel resentment. I feel resentment. Not every day, but it's there-though these days I feel it less and less often. Yes, especially when it comes to my challenging child. It's not comfortable. I resent that very few things are easy when it comes to this child-I've resented that a long time. I resent that every morning involves some sort of struggle over socks or pants or food or getting out of bed. I resent getting next to no sleep every night for the past 6 years. I resent that now that my oldest is in school she needs me on Saturdays, so the kids don't go to my mom's for the day which means I don't get a break-ever. I don't blame my children for these things, I understand my children's needs and quirks, but I resent these things.

Do I really resent _my child_? I don't think so, not really. I used to always think the resentment I feel is toward my child-but nowadays I understand that my resentment comes from other things and I sometimes direct it toward my child (kwim?). I resent the fact that I expected parenting to be easy-based on all the myths the books and media and people around me and the pediatrician perpetuate-and it has not ever been easy. I resent the cultural myth of Sleeping Through The Night. I resent encountering everywhere I turn the idea that I must be doing something wrong because this is so hard-I was too lenient or too strict or too inconsistent or, or, or...I resent doing this alone every day, especially when I'm so tired I can barely see straight. I resent being the only one who can get the kids to sleep at night and it takes almost an hour to do it-at the very time of day I most need a break (dh tries, bless him, but the kids won't do it). I resent being the one who takes on the lion's share of the parenting and housework with little help (again, dh does a lot when he's home, but he works long hours) even though I chose this path knowing it would be this way and I wouldn't do it any other way (and really, wouldn't it still mostly fall on my if I were working outside the home? It does for all the working moms I know). I resent the fact that we live in a society with no real support for mothers, and not much more respect. I resent the fact that in our society mothers are so often blamed for their kids behavior or choices or health, as if we have total control over our kids. I resent that when I need to talk about my feelings I get "well, you _chose_ to be a stay at home mom" or "You _chose_ to have three kids"-as if the fact that I chose it means that I don't get to find it challenging and I don't need support. I resent the attitude I encounter that I'm doing something wrong by trying to respect my children and their needs and to work with them rather than just "lay down the law" or "let 'em cry" or "ignore them, don't reinforce that crying". Then I resent the other (and often next) comment, which is usually something about my being too harsh because I am speaking firmly to my child about an important issue. _I deepy, deeply, viciously resent the idea that mothers shouldn't feel resentful or angry or frustrated or bored or any number of other improper negative feelings._ I think this cultural ideal of mothers having no negative feelings and being totally responsible for the children is a means of oppression. Who started it and when, I don't know (does anyone?), but it persists and we are all complicit in its perpetuation at some point. This persistent cultural ideal keeps women "in line" and it keeps us busy judging ourselves and each other instead of being a strong force within the culture. What would happen if we could just be human and that were good enough, and we could believe in ourselves and support and help one another without all this angst? What kind of force could we be?

Want a good read? Try _Ourselves as Mothers_ by Sheila Kitzinger (I think?). It's great on the newness of the western mother-at-home-alone-with-children model of mothering (how different it is from the mothering experience throughout history and in other parts of the world) and the real feelings mothers feel. Also, _The Hidden Feelings of Motherhood_-this one's pretty good too.

Okay, spent too long on my soapbox. People, even mothers, aren't _supposed_ to feel or not feel anything. Feelings are feelings. Period. It's good to talk about them and understand them, so they don't build up inside and come out at your children in inappropriate or hurtful ways. But the feelings themselves, they're not wrong. They may be a sign that something isn't right or you have unmet needs, but the feelings themselves aren't wrong. Feelings happen.

ETA that I'm really not as angry as I probably sounded in this post.







I'm a happy mama who is finally (at least for now) feeling at peace with most things. Resentment is not a daily occurence. And though I've talked a lot in this thread about my problems yelling at my kids, it's been a long time since I yelled. I'm a much calmer, much more gentle mama than I used to be. I'm in the zone right now, and it feels good. Part of getting to this place was facing the negative feelings (instead of feeling ashamed of them and stuffing them away) so that I could grow, and that is why this is such a soapbox issue for me.


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## ToniaStarr

I can totally relate. I have 3 very high needs boys. Bailey is 5 months old and very sensitive. If I cough while he is nursing he will cry for 10 minutes. If I walk too quickly with him in my arms he will panic and scream. I am constantly having to be aware of that. My middle son Aidan is 2.5 and very intense. (the exact opposite of his babybrother) He does not hug or snuggle or sit still. He bangs and roars and slams and yells and pounds. He is soooo defiant also. Everything is a fight with him. Just to get his socks on is a workout. He yells at me and hits me and responds to nothing when it comes to discipline. He exhausts me. Zane is 4.5 and more like Bailey. Very sensitive and mildly anal about many things. LOL. I love him but he can be very frusturating at times.
My point is, I can relate. But the thing is, I KNOW I am a good momma. And if you were not, you wouldn't be here venting. You simply would not care. The fact it is a struggle at times shows there is effort you are putting into it. At the days end, does your son know he is loved? That is what I aim for. Trust me, there are days I have to go into their room after they FINALLY are asleep and tell them in their ear how much I lovethem and how happy they make me. They stir enough to show me they heard me and then I am not left with the guilt of knowing the last words theyheard that day were yelling. I am working on my yelling...but I am still only human. (and a sleep deprived human at that)
Tonia







:


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
And a special hi to Toniastar.

And a thank you to sledg for yet another wonderful post.

And you guessed it. I am here tonight to reach out for some much needed support. I also feel that I need to share some very ugly parts of what happened tonight in our family. Be prepared, it was ugly. No, there was nothing physical, and there never has been. But I said some horrible things to my child that I feel that I need to release to the universe. And perhaps figure out how to repair the damage that has been done by this evening. Also, of course, I want/need to know if there is something seriously wrong with my child. I have no doubt that his behavior is not the norm. And I need to know where to go from here.

I've tried for about 10 minutes now to figure out where to start this. I don't even know what's important to share. I don't even want to get into the story. I just want someone to know that I never intended to be a yeller, to say horrible things to my son. I just need to someone other than my DH to hear what I said to him tonight. I told him that he lost his mind. That we would have to go talk to a doctor. That he was "ruining our family". That families can't operate like we were tonight and have so many times in the past with him. That mommy and daddy never yelled, never raised our voices before we had him. I asked him what his "problem was". Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck. I am so ashamed, and yet, I feel that I don't have the resources to deal with or parent this child. There is something deeply wrong with my child. Maybe not in a diagnosable sort of way right now, but he seems to me to be deeply sad. And I have rubbed salt into these wounds that he was born with.

Oh, ladies, it was so ugly. So, so ugly. I have no words anymore.

Thanks for listening.


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## Breathe

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[Bearsmama]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

I doubt that I can say the right thing from within the fog I'm floating in these days, but I couldn't let your post go by without a response . . . I'm so so so so sorry that you had such a difficult night. And I'm so sorry that you're in the depths of some parenting darkness. It sounds excruciating. But it also sounds to me like you *really* understand now that you guys need some support -- more than just MDC -- but real life, tangible support. You've been working so hard for so long and it may be that Bears has needs that you can't meet just by going from your gut. You are so very brave for acknowledging that and for "coming out" to the world about it. This WILL get better. You are trudging thru the deep stuff right now -- just keep putting one foot in front of the other and it will get better.

FWIW, just yesterday I hissed, "What is WRONG with you?!?" at my 4 yo, moments after he had yelled at me . . . IN the darkened room where I was just laying my sleeping 1 yo down on the bed after 20 min of bouncing. I also squeezed his arm later in the day after he knocked his toddling brother down for the 6th time.







(altho I will quote an amazing Brain, Child writer who once wrote, "squeezed him harder than I should have, but not as hard as I wanted to"!!!!)

Do you wanna talk on the phone to someone about all this? If so, PM me for my number . . . I also feel like my guy can be so sullen and sad -- asked his new preschool teacher yest. if he might be depressed . . . and have also felt that my bad behavior has MADE him sad at times. Might be easier to support you in real time and I'm happy to do so. We've e-known each other a while now, so we're not exactly strangers! Think about it, K?

Love and SLEEP to you!


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## Bearsmama

Oh Breathe, I really don't know what to say.







Although the first thing I NEED to say (besides thank you) is that YOU READ OUR MINDS. There is something going on here that is bigger than DH and I having some really awful parenting moments. Of course, I take responsibility for my actions tonight. But tonight has made me and DH realize that there is something else afoot here. The word DEPRESSION has come up for me before when I deal with my son. In fact, I've said this to DH a few times. And tonight we started saying that he seems manic-depressive. So, I did a little research into bi-polar/manic depression and the signs and symptoms fit him to a *T*. That said, DH and I both realize that it's very easy to hop online and think, my child has x, y, or Z. Is he gifted? Does he have ADHD? ETC., ETC. But this BPD thing really resonated with me.

It's so completely wild that you mention that you talked to your DS's teacher about whether or not she thinks your DC is depressed. What did the teacher say in response to that???? I'm anticipating some kind of earful at our first conference next month, and I'm wondering if this will come up for us. In fact, DH and I are sort of waiting to see what others in a more structured enviroment outside of our home think of DS's behavior. B/c if it's just that these behaviors come out with mommy and daddy and no where else, then perhaps things are not as serious as we think. But my gut has always told me that something is very different about this child.

Breathe-I can't thank you enough for your post and support. I will keep in mind your offer. I may be needing more support then I ever imagined.
More when I can.


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## Magella

, Bearsmama.

I'm sorry you had such a tough night. You know what I think? I think that if your gut is telling you that something 'more' is going on and that you need help, you should go get help. Of some kind. (I know, that's terribly helpful :LOL)

I wish I had more to offer right now, but I don't. Only lots of hugs and love.

Oh, and I think you're my twin because every time you post that you said or did this awful thing it's something I've done too-almost exactly. And I always think "she's going to someday think I'm lying, because I always say 'I did that too'." At least you're not the only one, right? I don't know if that's really good.









Take care.


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## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*





















, Bearsmama.

I'm sorry you had such a tough night. You know what I think? I think that if your gut is telling you that something 'more' is going on and that you need help, you should go get help. Of some kind. (I know, that's terribly helpful :LOL)

I wish I had more to offer right now, but I don't. Only lots of hugs and love.

Oh, and I think you're my twin because every time you post that you said or did this awful thing it's something I've done too-almost exactly. And I always think "she's going to someday think I'm lying, because I always say 'I did that too'." At least you're not the only one, right? I don't know if that's really good.









Take care.


I agree. It sounds likes it's time to seek out a 'professional' you can trust. You know damage is being done, so it's time. Ask around. Ask someone with older kids (someone whose parenting you admire) and see if she/he's heard of someone. I can think of two excellent people in my area, out of about 40 folks I'd never call.

I also recommend a reading of The Explosive Child, and yes, Unconditional Parenting by Kohn. There are a lot of good strategies in that book despite the fact some folks think the book sounds like a free-for-all. it's not.


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## Bearsmama

oh, sledg







Yes, I think it is a good thing-at least this way we can commiserate. No, not necessarily good for our children, but it's truly what I need. I can't say that I'm *happy* to hear that you've said or done similar things, but I do feel comforted. Although there is no excuse for it, there's got to be something else, some other level here with my child (and yours) that brings out this side of us.

Yes, my gut tells me that there is something bigger going on, and I've ALWAYS felt this. He was a tough, intense, non-sleeping baby. And he's been intense for almost 4 years. This morning, though, when I dropped him off at school and saw his little friends calling his name and saw them running around and playing, I once again thought, maybe my gut is wrong.
My son is a thousand different things in one.

DH and I came to the conclusion that DS may have some big issues to deal with in life. Whether that's depression or ADHD or just being a little "different" than the other kids. We have to look for support, perhaps calling in a professional for some help at some point. But this morning, when I'm seeing things a little more clearly, I want to see how others see him.YKWIM? If there is an indication from someone else that they see what we do, then we will take a different path. I think school will be such a good thing for us as parents. We will finally have some objective opinions.

I have never experienced anything like this in my life. The deep love, sadness, and anger that this child brings out in me (and DH) is really unbelievable. Sledg-knowing I'm not alone is helping me tremdously. Thank you, thank you, thank you.







I have so much more to say, but the house calls and I have to squeeze some stuff in before I have to go get DS. More when I can...


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## Bearsmama

UU-Thank you







I think we X-posted.

Yes, you are right. There has been some damage done. I do feel, however, that whenever I've done something I've felt less than proud of I've always been accountable to DS. I've never NOT apologized. And I think that helps a little. I know being accountable for our actions as parents is HUGE.

Okay, and I have to say something here. I really hope you all don't get the wrong picture. Our house is not a non-stop scream fest. We have a home filled with tons of humor, tons of love and touching and kissing and holding, and fun and safety. I really, really know this. I just don't want everyone to think that our home is in this constant state of dysfunction. I guess I feel very vulnerable and I've realized that I've opened myself up here in a very REAL way. Thanks for letting me make that disclaimer.


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## MsMoMpls

Darling Momma, I always feel you when you are in this place. I am late for work, don't even know why I came on... must have heard your pain.

You are doing ok. That is all you really need to know. The pain is a sign you need to try bigger solutions. I would consider an evalutation of some kind. I have lots of ideas, remember- Nate was diagnosed with depression, bipolar and ADD, oh and he's gifted. Don't worry so much about labels but about solutions.

I would love to talk. I will check back in after work tonight. Hang in there. You are the perfect parent for this child. Other parents would be beating him or putting him in foster care... believe me.

Much love to your family in this terribly trying time, really.

Maureen


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## TripMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Hi Mamas,
We've had almost a full year of challenges since our 2nd child was born, and well, we've fallen short of our ideals as parents.

Two things:

1. I have a 3.5 DS -- and have struggled for this entire last year also
2. We had our babies about a year ago too.

I think the problem is the combo. I've had soo many mommas tell me that right around 3 is when the parenting got really really hard -- and then introducing the new sibling at that time as well adds to what I think is a normally challenginng developmental period.

I just wanted to post to say - "I'm there. I'm Doing That" - every day is a challenge. And the only thing I've noticed that is helpful -- is to get somebody to stay with babies (DH, family, babysitter, whoever) -- on a regular basis -- and spend 1-1 time with DS - no babies around - doing something DS wants to do - go to park, go to library, etc. Even when I was BF'ing -- I'd stay close to the house and just go to the neighborhood park with DS and have fun. Have you been able to do this yet?


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## Magella

Bearsmama, you mentioned wanting to see how others view your son and I wanted to share my experience with you (I apologize if I have at some point in the past and am repeating myself).

For a long while I was absolutely convinced that not only was I a horrid mother, but that something must be wrong with my child. Except for that niggling, tiny little voice that said 'wait' every time I thought about having her evaluated. Why the voice? I don't know. I guess because I didn't want her labeled so early in life, and I was (as Maureen said) looking for solutions (ways of coping, interacting in a healthy way, helping her) rather than a diagnosis. School was a real eye-opener. One day, I had to bring her some medicine because she was suddenly itchy everywhere. I don't remember why she was itchy, but she's so sensitive and she was very uncomfortable. One teacher remarked that all even her clothes were bothering her. I said "well, her clothes tend to bother her anyway..." and her primary teacher said "Oh, yes!" with the little eye-roll. So I thought "A-ha! the teachers have noticed this clothing thing (one of our big issues at the time), I really should talk to them more about how she's doing at school." I figured maybe I'd hear that she's stubborn, or having tantrums or something else that we deal with at home. Turned out that she's just perfect at school, just a tad slow in the getting-dressed-to-go-outside department as compared to the rest of the class (but part of that was that she was so capable that the teachers encouraged but did not help her). Not a single difficult behavior. Nothing the teachers perceived as unusual, nevermind abnormal. So then I started listening to what everyone else had to say, talked openly with family about my concerns-and found out that everyone around me (well, everyone except my hypochondriac, drama-queen mother







) thought of my daughter as completely normal-just a normal stubborn kid with quirks.

I can't tell you how huge it was to start noticing how most other people perceived her. I got to look at her with fresh eyes, and though I still wondered from time to time is she was "normal" I began to see that she's just a little...quirky, and not easy for me to parent. And now that she's maturing, past that preschooler stage and becoming a big kid, I see how capable and normal she is. She's just a really tough kid to parent. But you know, she has outgrown so much of the horribly challenging stuff. She wears socks and shoes now without a fight (well, most days). She doesn't even need special socks often. She wears underwear that doesn't cost a fortune. She wears jeans. She talks about her feelings instead of dissolving into a tantrum. She asks for hugs after a tough day instead of lashing out. She falls asleep in under an hour, and most nights sleeps all night without screaming in her sleep. It's amazing. I think her emotional development is finally "catching up" with her cognitive development. I think part of our problem, in addition to some sensory issues which seem to be subsiding, was that she has always been so very intelligent and precocious but her emotional/social skills lagged behind. Asymetric development? One of her teachers even mentioned that. She could do mental math a year ago but could not talk about her feelings or handle disappointment. It was frustrating for her, and it was frustrating for us. Our expectations were based on her intellectual abilities-the precocious verbal skills, etc.-and out of line with her emotional abilities. Does that make sense?

And I did ask for help, even though I didn't choose to seek a professional evaluation of my daughter. I asked opinions about her development and behavior from a therapist friend who works with children. And I saw my own counselor to talk about parenting and to put things in perspective. It helped to talk to someone who was unbiased, yk? Someone with a fresh perspective. I'm sure you will find the help that is right for you and your son.

I can't express to you how valuable, important and amazing it was to be able to see my daughter the way others see her. I can't put into words the difference it made for me.

And I, for one, never doubted that there is much joy in your home.


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## UUMom

I am sure your home isn't a non-stop screamfest.







I'm on this thread because I also have a challenging child, and I might have mentioned in the thread that I have sought help that ended up being very beneficial. My home is loving and not a scream fest, either, yet the help we got was invaluable.

One thing I learned is that we aren't gong to change our children's basic personality, but we can change our reactions to behavior which challenges us. It sounds like it might be time for you to reach out to someone who could perhaps help.

My child never saw the person dh and I saw, as we didn't think this about about the child, but about our abilities. I will come back and edit this, so plase don't quote me. lol I just want to share with you, but that's not something I am willing to share with my child at this point.

Our kids only get one shot at childhood, so the burden is on us to figure this out. It's tough. real tough.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
One thing I learned is that we aren't gong to change our children's basic personality, but we can change our reactions to behavior which challenges us.









This is the lesson that I had to learn and that saved my relationship with my daughter. It was a hard lesson to learn.

Here's a story I want to share with all the moms on this thread:

I always thought of my challenging dd as being sort of like a storm. She was beautiful and amazing and intense and could throw our entire family into intense joy or despair or chaos. Her behaviors were so challenging and I did not know how to cope, and I was definitely not the mom I had planned to be. The good times were great, and the bad times were just more awful than I ever could have imagined before she came along. I used to feel awful because when she would go to school, our home would be so _peaceful_. She'd be gone, and I'd realize the strain she put on the family and how much easier things were and how much more relaxed we all were when she wasn't there. It was a horrible feeling. Like here we were in the eye of the hurricane, and we knew the storm was coming at pick-up time. (This was when she was in preschool). The difficult times were so difficult that they overshadowed the good times, in my mind anyway.

The first year she was in school we got our first clue. When I talked to her teacher to ask if the things that were a problem at home were a problem at school, the teacher (also a mom) said that my dd had no problems at school. Dd was very bright, and her social/emotional development lagged behind a little but that was common with bright kids. The problems at home, the teacher said, were probably due to the new baby in our family. Well, I read and read and read about all kinds of potential problems my dd could have had and nothing really resonated with me. But I wasn't inclined to truly believe that her teacher could have been right either. Things went on as usual-leaving the house every day was a nightmare, struggles almost constantly. I finally saw my therapist again because I knew I needed help, and when I did some journaling I discovered that we had more good days than bad. So I knew part of the solution to our problems was going to be changing _my_ perspective.

But this was a long journey. On to dd's second year of preschool. By now dd is doing mental math and writing and doing a little reading. She's clearly very smart and she's often amazing to talk to, but still it seems like every little thing is a struggle. She's still the storm, life is still more peaceful when she's not home, I'm still not the mom I set out to be when she was born. I'm questioning again whether or not I should have her evaluated.

Near the beginning of dd's second year of preschool, we have teacher conferences-maybe 2 months in. And I'm sitting there listening to dd's teacher say how wonderful dd is, how caring, how generous, how compassionate, how mature she's becoming. She says dd solves problems easily and willingly, shares so willingly that the teachers get worried that her own needs aren't being met ("are you sure it's okay if so-and-so uses that E?"), comforts other kids. This is the child who yells at her brother constantly, can't share with him, grabs and hits him all the time, won't cooperate with me to do the simplest things. My stormy daughter. And this teacher is sitting right in front of me, in all seriousness telling me that my daughter is going to be *"some kind of gentle leader, like Buddha."*

Um, my daughter? A gentle leader? Like Buddha? Buddha and my daughter in the same sentence? This is how someone else sees my child?

It was a huge wake-up call. In so many ways. She isn't a violent storm just waiting to wreak havoc. She's an amazing, strong little girl who manages her own emotions and behaviors very well out there in public (she really has been listening!), and who feels loved and comfortable enough to let it all hang out at home. This little change in perspective made a huge difference in our lives. Huge. This is what allowed us to start creating peace in our home and repairing our relationship with our daughter. This is when I realized that what I needed to do was reevaluate my own attitudes, assumptions, expectations, desires and really examine the automatic thoughts and feelings I had in response to my dd's challenging behaviors. The solution turned out to be within myself-not in learning a magic set of parenting behaviors, but in really taking an honest (and painful) look my attitudes, assumptions, expectations and desires, and how those impacted my perceptions of my daughter's behavior, which affected my interactions with my daughter, which in turn impacted her behavior-and then being willing to change those thoughts, etc. which were problematic. It wasn't easy. It sucked, frankly. It is still hard, but getting easier-and so worth it.

ETA that this is not meant to discount individual difficulties each child may have and simply say that everything is the parents' fault-my own dd has some sensory difficulties that are not under her or my control, and that are not caused by something I did or didn't do. Certainly sometimes children do need some kind of direct intervention or therapy. And anyway, _blaming_ anyone doesn't help. But as my child-therapist friend told me, with young children help is usually focused on working with _the parents_ to help _the parents_ learn to cope and interact with their children in ways that help the child grow and learn.

I apologize for the absurd length of my posts.


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## Bearsmama

I'm







:

But before I comment on all the great replies and good words of wisdom and support, I feel the need to describe the scene in our house tonight. Last night was very ugly, but tonight was fairly typical, actually:

DS is very tired (doesn't nap, although he's exhausted all the time). He's been looking forward to going to this local firehouse for their open house. We went, had a great time, came home. He gave DH his usualy hard time about getting into the tub. Then, I put DS#2 to sleep in our family bed. I say to Bears, We now have time for two stories, if we get ready quickly and be a real help to me and daddy, then we have time to read both. He hems and haws. He still wears a pull-up at night. Yesterday at the grocery store he pointed out the kind he wanted (they were the store brand's generic) with a bear on them. We have very recently potty trained, so he's only been using one of these for nigthtime. DH goes to put it on him and he freaks, saying he doesn't want "those". I say, that's all we have, honey. Okay, he says, I want to wear underwear. I say, Can you keep yourself dry all night? No. Then we need to wear a pull-up. Major crying and tears. Screaming and screeching so loudly that he is going to wake his brother. He is just letting out these annoying, high-pitched wails. I say, if you're going to be loud, we need to read in the other room. Still continues to be loud. Then, for no apparent reason he decides to blow snot out of his nose onto the floor. I march him into the bathroom and remind him that we use tissues for that. He continues to sceam and screech. He is not even able to calm himself down enought to HEAR THAT WE ARE GIVING HIM what he wants-reading stories. Frankly, it is already too late to read stories, but I know he loves it and needs it, so we never NOT do this, really. He does this rhythmic screeching thing again and I start jumping up and down along with him and screeching, too. Then, we both start laughing and I say, "That's what that sounds like". Then, he remembers that he was giving us a hard time and continues on his rant. I feel myself getting enraged. I throw a book onto the floor and march downstairs to type this.

Okay, that's a fairly typical night in our house. Hopefully he'll be so exhausted that he will just fall asleep. B/c frankly, I really have had my fill of Bears this week. Oh, and normal hygiene is such an issue it's not even remotely funny. He is almost 4yo and every. SINGLE. NIGHT. IT IS AN ISSUE.

Whew. I am done with that. But I had to share a fairly common scene in our home. More when I'm calmer.


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## Bearsmama

Tripmom-Thank you. You are right. DS really thrives when we've had some alone time to connect-just the two of us (which I can imagine is a challenge in your house!). I realize that I used to make this more of a priority when DS#2 was little, but I've gotten away from it. In fact, I can't remember the last time Bears and I did something just US. I've been saying to him lately that we need some time to go and play together. Maybe this weekend.

Maureen-Thank you, thank you, my friend. Your words always have such a huge impact on me, and I find them so comforting. You reminded me that we are together for a reason, Bears and me. And this week I couldn't remember WHY exactly, but I know it's there. You are right, too, unfortunately, about how he would be hurt in bigger ways if he was born into a different family. I completely get this. This is not to let myself off the hook for my behavior, but it is a way of viewing things that helps me realize what both of us are bringing to this family.

The labeling thing for me has never been that huge. Like sledg has said, there has always been reason for me to question what his "issues" are. But I've always stopped short of getting help for him for whatever reason. It's just that last night was so huge, and some other moments in our family where I realize that something is off-kilter. But you are right on, I think when we speak about finding solutions, and forgetting about the labeling. One solution that's working this instant is me being on the laptop cooling down while DH handles DS. Just these little things.

UU-Thank you.

sledg-I have some thoughts and I am so happy you shared your story about getting a different perspective on your DD through her teacher. I am seeing DS in a little bit of a different light myself through his interactions thus far at school. I haven't yet had a real conference, though, so we'll see if he's on the Buddha path or not!

I have loads more to say and comment on and thanks to give to everyone, but I gtg... More later.


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## Magella

Hey that scene with your son and the pull-up is so familiar! We have had our share of tantrums over things a child has picked out then not wanted. Both of my older kids, my challenging dd and mellow ds, have had tantrums over similar issues. The difference between the two is the type/intensity of tantrum. My ds will have a relatively annoying (and rare) normal tantrum-crying, maybe a little yelling ("NO!"), some flopping on the floor-and after giving him some space to let off steam you can talk to him to help him calm down. Dd on the other hand-it's more of a rage than a tantrum. Shrieking, mainly. That awful high-pitched nasty shriek that's enough to drive anyone over the edge. When she was very young it would also include hitting, and still (though tantrums are much more rare now) can include throwing stuff.

I think if the same exact thing happened at our home with our dd, we would have had the best luck bringing her downstairs or to another room to finish her tantrum so she wouldn't disturb the other kids. As much. Talking to our dd just seems to feed the tantrum most of the time, so we'd state that we're there for her when she's calm and ready to talk then just basically ignore the tantrum so long as she's safe. Also, if she wanted to skip the pull up and sleep in her own bed, that would be fine. I just don't like to be peed on in my own bed, yk? So that would be a choice we'd offer right before the tantrum began in earnest or after she calmed down. My son has actually had tantrums over which diaper or pull-up to wear to bed, and we bring him to his room until he's calm (sometimes we stay, sometimes we say we'll be right down the hall because the other kids need to finish brushing teeth and we'll be back to talk soon). Beyond the intial empathy and response ("I understand you don't want to wear this one. It's the only one we have to wear." + maybe a question or repeat), we refuse to continue talking about it because it won't help. We can talk again when he's calm. This works for him, but then everything with him seems easy compared to dd.

Any idea why he didn't want it? It's so maddening to not be able to figure out why they're flipping out. Dd used to be famous for not giving us a clue as to why she was flipping. Is there a chance it was somehow different from what he expected from looking at the package? Maybe it looked uncomfortable? Maybe he prefers how underwear feels now that he's daytime trained?

About the hygiene-what exactly are the issues? I was just thinking, my son (mellow boy) never has liked brushing his teeth so we got one of those battery-powered toothbrushes (Spiderman). We call it a "spinny brush", and he liked that a lot and helped toothbrushing go more smoothly. There are particular toothpastes each kids prefers. And at various times our kids have preferred showers or spongebaths to actual tub baths, or vice-versa. You've by now tried all this stuff, I'm sure. I can just so relate, and I want to help.

One thing I noticed about my own dd, is that she could not calm herself even at age 4, and still had trouble at 5. I could try to help her take breaths or whatnot, and she wouldn't try and finally one day said she didn't know how. I was desperate to try to teach her some relaxation skills, and I tried these yoga videos for kids (Yoga Kids? Silly to Calm Yoga and one other). She loved it, did yoga every day. Finally she'd start doing the "dragon breaths" with me at night to relax or when she started to get upset. I don't know why or how, but yoga seemed to help.

Also interesting, is that chiropractic care sometimes helps kids who are high-strung. We've been considering it for dd even though life is becoming more normal around here. Might be interesting to look into.

Oh, gotta run. I'm running out of ideas and I should stop procrastinating on getting my house ready for the big 6 year old birthday party tomorrow. I'm kidless today, which I so need because I'm PMSing big time and the sibling fighting is driving me nuts. All 3 of them seem to be constantly fighting with each other. Hope you have a great weekend!


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## srain

With a challenging kid of my own, I've said worse, I'll admit. I don't have the energy to write a lot right now, but I will mention a couple things that've helped a bit (apologies if they've been said). First, my husband and I each spend a half-hour a day, almost every day, doing whatever he wants with just him. It help diffuse things and makes everything easier, so it's worth the time investment. Also, he's always done much better if we spend time out in nature daily. We don't do it as much as we should, but it really makes a difference, and recently I've read some articles that back this up. Are you able to get into the woods regularly?


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## Bearsmama

Hi,
I haven't had a chance to give my full attention to this thread over the past few days. I wanted a little calm and quiet to respond to everyone.

Yes, sledge, the pull-ups were different than his normal ones. But he had picked them out earlier in the day. So, even though he migh be the one to choose something different, it still throws him later. We've tried everything with the toothbrushing. Everything. We've sort of given up making it a huge deal. I basically just say that I'm not going to fight about it and that we have to do it and we can do it at the bathroom sink or in the bedroom or in the tub, but we have to DO IT. He has a few spinbrushes that *should* be fun for him, but they're not, of course. Just a quick example from today. It is rainy and cool today. DS refuses to wear a jacket or a even a zip-up sweatshirt. I am amazed that he left the house with a long-sleeved shirt on. He says that will keep him warm. I know that all of the other kids at school (well, there might be one like Gus, I don't know yet) go dressed for the season. Not Bears. And they ask him every day where his jacket is. I finally said to the teacher today that he refuses to wear it. I just wanted her to know that I actually did care about him being attired for the weather, but that he just refuses.
Chiropractic care is something that we thought about when DS was very little, actually. Someone suggested cranio-sacral therapy. Wow, it's weird to write that and realize that we've been searching for answers since day ONE!
sledg-Could you remind me where your challenging DD falls in the order of your children?
Oh, and we've talked a bit lately about breathing and doing yoga breathing. He actually does some yoga at school. And I used to be a more regular yoga person, too. So, I'm trying to come up with some solutions and get away from the labels right now.

I realize that I am rambling a but trying to squeeze all my thoughts in here, I'm sorry.

srain-Thanks for your reply. I really do think that 1-on-1 time would be so important to DS and that in the first few months after the arrival of my 2nd son I actually tried to do this more often. And I've sort of gotten away from it. I really am trying to squeeze in more alone time with DS. Being outside really helps him, too. We have a woody area of our yard and just being outback and to have him run around and let the baby walk all over and explore the grass and leaves really helps. Perhaps we'll all go on a hike this weekend. Thank you for the suggestions and hopefully you can find some support here, too.

More when I can, ladies.


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## Magella

I hear you on the coat thing. This is the first fall I have not had to fight to get my challenging dd to wear her coat. Well, it probably won't continue to be easy







And forget wearing a coat or sweater or sweatshirt over 3/4 sleeves.

Our bottom line, for a lot of things, is we have to do it-you can do it here or there, mom can help or dad, but it's going to be done. That's often the only way we get important stuff done, and it means planning ahead and a lot of waiting and some really good calming techniques for myself. And sometimes it means dd goes out without socks or without a coat and we bring it all along so she can put it on later when she realizes she's cold. It would be nice if it were all easy, but it isn't. Sometimes creative works, sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes you just can't be creative and fun and upbeat for one more minute-sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't!









Interestingly, sometimes it helps to have a teacher enforce the coat-wearing or sock-wearing. Or to have the dentist back us up on the importance of toothbrushing. On a few other occasions I've had someone else be the "authority". Other people seem to have a power or mystique that I don't.

My challenging kid is my oldest. She'll officially be 6 tomorrow!







:

Well, I hope you have a nice day. And fwiw, maybe he really is warm enough without that coat.


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## Bearsmama

AHH, sledg, thank you, thank you.









Sledg et al: Any of your spirited, challenging children ever make themselves throw up? Bears did this a few times (maybe two) when between the ages of maybe 2-3. Then, recently, he's done it again once or twice. Tonight, he did it right after dinner. He walks around in circles and then acts like he's gonna throw up. I say, if you're going to be sick, please go to the sink. He refuses and yakked tonight on the tile kitchen floor (at least it wasn't horrible to clean up). I *know* he's not sick. I KNOW IT. In fact, I asked him and he said, yes, he did it "on purpose". I think I asked our ped about this when he did it when he was younger, and she said that kids start wondering about "what would happen if??" kinda stuff and they sort of start experimenting a little. Now, I don't know if this is the case when your child is going on 4.???

I feel that we are in crisis a lot lately. A LOT. I sort of freaked out about the throw up incident. I really feel that I cannot parent this child. I feel that I cannot relate to him on any level most days. I know that sounds horrible, but it's the truth. I wonder when these scenes are going on if the same thing is playing itself out in other families, and I don't know.








It just feels so wrong. And so weird that our beautiful little family can go from loving and full of humor and affection, to barf on the floor, yelling, and stomping around.

Anyway, I gtg. Thanks again, ladies. I'm trying to hang in there.
B


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## Magella

Oh, yuck! What a thing. I have heard of kids making themselves throw up, but have not had the pleasure of experiencing that myself. I think if I were in your shoes I would probably chalk it up to experimentation of some sort because it's only happened a couple of times. But I dunno. That sure is something you don't want happening regularly.

I want to ask something, but I'm not sure how to put it. Certainly parenting a challenging child is very, very tough and I am in no way trying to minimize that. But is it possible that you might be suffering yourself from some depression, post-partum or otherwise? The reason I ask is that I think I was mildly depressed for a long time, whether it was related to the difficulties I was having in parenting my daughter or a post-partum kind of depression or both, and that of course made my parenting difficulties much worse. I ended up feeling a heck of a lot better about my parenting and getting along with my daughter better when I took some measures to take care of my own mental health-through excercise and nutrition and some supplements (vitamins and herbs). I feel like I just came out of a 2 year darkness, not despair or misery just a sort of dark and difficult time and then once I started taking better care of myself I began to feel so much better and more hopeful. Just tossing that out there, and again I am in no way trying to minimize how tough it is to parent a challenging child or to imply that any of this is your fault. It's just that something about your words and your feelings of not being able to parent him made me wonder, yk?

Well, I'm off. Today dd1 is off from kindergarten and my ds is at preschool, so I promised dd1 some special time with just us girls (me, dd1 and dd2). I really hope you have a good day. I really feel for you, and I wish I could make it all better for you.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-Thank you, as always.









The throwing up thing, I think, is pretty random, and was the culmination of a rotten day. I've spoken this week to a woman who suggested this local practice of OTs and other therapists that evaluate kids in a really non-threatening way. I am going to call them soon to just see where we are. This woman has a son who shows many of the same traits that Bears does. And he is a "normal" kid-who just has many sensory issues and having him officially evaluated has helped her with her parenting more so than even helping her child. I have loads of info, but I'm too tired to type!

I am rambling a bit as I am taking a break from some late night baking.

Surprise, surprise, Bears got croup the night of the rotten day. So, much of this wacky behavior is often brought on by illness, I think.

And about the depression-I don't think that I am currently depressed, although in retrospect I did have some ppd (or what I am calling ppd) after Bear's birth). I think I have some "situational" depression, though. When times are tough with Bears I find myself in a slump and it is very hard to remain positive. I get swept up in the whirlwind and chaos that is my child.

I realize that I am rambling right now and I have so much more to say, but I gtg to bed. I wanted to let you know that I have so much appreciated your posts, sledg. I only had a minute or two to check in tonight, but I'll be back.


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## srain

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And about the depression-I don't think that I am currently depressed, although in retrospect I did have some ppd (or what I am calling ppd) after Bear's birth). I think I have some "situational" depression, though. When times are tough with Bears I find myself in a slump and it is very hard to remain positive.

I've thought about this a lot with my son. I was pretty depressed after his birth and for his first year (and ever since, honestly, but not so badly), and people suggested postpartum depression, etc. I understand the hormonal causes of PPD and all that. But really, when you have a kid who functions so far outside of normal range, it's hard to say if you're depressed biochemically or if you're depressed because your life really and truly sucks.


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## Bearsmama

srain-Thanks so much for your reply. I really responded to what you said about having a child who functions out of the normal range. DH and I are now armed with a few numbers of local groups/professionals that may be able to help Bears and us. And as we get closer to trying to get help, we're wondering HOW someone else can really help our reactions to this stuff b/c it seems so far out there. Like, even if we find out that Bears has some legitamate issues, how can that really help improve our patience level in the face of this crazy-making behavior?

I am not making myself clear. We're coming off a horrible few days behavior-wise. On the way home tonight, the moon was out and DH noticed that it was full. And we both sort of looked at each other, wondering without saying anything, is this another factor? I doubt it, but the folks who work in ERs would tell me otherwise. Hmmmmmm?????

Whatever his issues are (or aren't), DH and I realize that we need some support. Some major support. Like if we knew that Bears had a legitamate special need of some sort we would find ways of better dealing. And I really do believe that he has special needs and that we have to sort of start looking at things like that.


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## MsMoMpls

I went through so many professionals with my kid but honestly having a parents support group kept me alive. Having other parents share their successes, their struggles, just having that sick humor that only other stressed out parents can understand kept it all in perspective. You have gotten so much out of coming here, I do believe that there is more help out there than you believe. Good luck in finding it. I think you are going into this with a pretty honest assessment of your child, and yourself. That helps a ton. Things have changed so much since I dealt with this- there is more understanding and awareness of children's struggles.

I think Occupational therapy might be great at decreasing his tactile defensiveness, make him less sensitive to some things that might be stressing him out. They will also help you find things that calm him when he does get overstimulated.

You might also want to find a good play therapist to help him learn some anger management. I think that you are working on this with him, but a professional might some distance which a parent can't have. You also might find that sharing some of the sense of responsibility for him eases your fears. Just knowing that someone else "gets" him is a blessing.

Good luck as you move forward, I believe healing and growth for all is ahead.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Maureen,
Made some calls this morning. One place is a play therapy place that has OTs and others and does evaluations. The other is a pediatric psychology practice. I am in the information-getting stage and I will hopefully know more soon.

I will let you all know what comes of this.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
But really, when you have a kid who functions so far outside of normal range, it's hard to say if you're depressed biochemically or if you're depressed because your life really and truly sucks.









Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Some kids are just so incredibly tough to parent that it's hard to not be depressed at least some of the time.

Bearsmama, I'm happy for you that you are on the road to finding some help for you and Bears.







I hope you find what you need easily and soon.


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## CaroleP

Hi all. I haven't been here in a long time, but the link in the newsletter caught my eye. My dear friend was in town last weekend. She is adopting an almost 2 year old foster child. I always try to stay out of other people's parenting business - but after 2 days of this kid running the show and driving everyone nuts, I had enough. I swept up this screaming crying little girl and took her out of hte room where she wouldn't get the attention she wanted. I then held her tight in my arms, king of like in a hug position, to where she couldn't kick or escape. I told her that she wasn't getting down until she was ready to be good, and that she is not the boss. As she calmed down, I wiped her nose and face. My friend coudln't stand it and came in to give her medicine so she could retrieve the child from her mean "aunt". But the kid was very sweet for the short while longer that they were there. She didn't avoid me. She wasn't afraid to be near me. We sat by the window and talked about the big pool in the back yard (the lake.) Her mom on the other had was quite mad at me.

I remember with my daughter, 3 was a very challenging year. I also learned that yelling only produces bad results and they don't take you seriously if you're always yelling. And I learned that my yelling came from my own sense of overwhelm and frustration. I had to get my time and life under control. That's why I've written ebooks on housecleaning, healthy eating, quick dinners and such. When I was able to manage life, my relationship with my d was much more enjoyable.

Another thing that helped a lot was making sure that she had enough exercise and the ability to run off a good amount of that pent up kid energy. They have to be able to be kids.

I remember that year I had a halloween party for the kids in the neighborhood. The parents were thrilled to drop off their kids - thinking that I was totally nuts. The kids were yelling and screaming and bouncing off the walls. They ate cake and candy and ice cream. Played games. When the parents returned, the kids were grouped off all playing quietly. I had something like 10 kids that day, ranging from 3-7.

I always had the hang out house. One place we lived, I had a trail of kids following me up the stairs as soon as I got home from work. I didn't always feel like it, believe me. But after about a half hour, they ran it out and settled down. As long as they followed the minimal rules - don't break anything and don't be disrespectfull - they were allowed to be kids. There was only one time when I had to throw them all out for not behaving - and they never did it again.

I don't yell. On the very rare occasions when I have had to, it scared the daylights out of them. They hate it! But most of their parents yell all the time and it just gets tuned out. The parents who yell and scream and swear the most have the worst kids. And then they tell me they wish their kids were like mine.

Another thing that helps is to actually BE with them. Get down on the floor and bang the pots with them. Knock down buidling blocks. Have paper airplane races. They remember that stuff more than the bad stuff. My daughter had a horrible horrible case of chicken pox. What she remembers most is the paper airplane races and getting presents. I remember the bad stuff vividly - but she doesn't. So don't focus on the bad stuff. Start making good memories!

Just remember, you are the adult- and things will be fine. You have a great support net here. If you can deal with some of the overload issues, it will be easier to not yell - and actually enjoy the time with your kids. They grow up so fast.

Just sharing some stuff that has worked for me - I hope it helps.

Carole


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Carole.

I think you had some great points but holding a child against their will isn't what most of us would consider Gentle Discipline which we are pretty committed to. For highly challenging, spirited children like Bear, being out of physically held can create a great increase in power struggles. I am glad it worked this one time with your niece but that certainly doesn't mean it is going to work long term. A 2 year old foster child may have attachment issues and many people believe that holding is very effective with attachment issues because you have to take them back to get their infant needs met. Bears issues may be a lot of things.... but they aren't attachment.

I do believe that getting our "stuff" together is the most important thing we can do as parents. Honestly, the greatest change in me the parent I was at 21 and me the parent I am at 42 is that I am much more organized, and almost boring in my predictability. My life has no drama and I work hard to keep it that way. Sometimes I forget that those things have changed because they are such subtle changes. I can now whip together a great meal in 30 minutes with two kids "helping", meals happen at the same time every day and bed times are carved in stone.

Thanks for the reminders.


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## oliviagoddess

If you say your child is defiant, that has very negative connotations! I prefer to say my daughter is spirited. This puts a positive spin and does not label her as something bad. I think most here will agree that defiant has negative connotations.

I split this hair because language shapes thought, really it does affect your behavior how you think of a situation. I am not judging but just want to say that it might help if you think of him as spirited, with his own will, rather than defiant. If you refer to him as the terror or the tyrant, then he will live up to that label. PLEASE change the words you use, even if he does not understand the meaning, he understands the intent and feeling of the word.

Having said that I have a VERY spirited 4.8yr daughter and knowing this, I chose not to have a 2nd or to severly delay a 2nd child (maybe when she's in college ;-) - granted this is not an option for you since you already have a 2nd. I would suspect that the baby severly rocked his world and he's not over it yet (if he ever will).

Everythign she is and does is ME, from the time I was little to now. I CANNOT fault her for being just like her mommy. It would not be fair to her and I would be a hipocrite for punishing behavior that reflects what I have said or done my entire life. I remember being 4 or 5 and having a severe sense of injustice in my life. I felt I was not being treated fairly and that my family viewed me as a burden (which they actually did, I later find out).

I have seen this in my friend's children and I can guess that your son feels his position in the family is threatened. By their very nature babies need a huge amount of personal attention. In his child logic, your son sees this a preference on your part. You cannot fault child logic, it is not rational but rather relies on observation and frequency. Put yourself at his level, the baby cires and you respond - by child logic if he yells you respond.

As far as discipline is concerned, I think you give up to easily and revert to the tried and true yelling. Your son has learned that you are not consistent, you will try whatever trick you have once, maybe twice and then he knows you will be back to yelling (or whatever it is). He has learned how to push your buttons and that you don't stick to your guns.

Pick a strategy and stick with it no matter what. Seriously, it's like a diet for the mind! Choose not do do it or not to react and then simply so it. A lot of what spirited children do is for attention and for effect. Simply ignoring certain behavior (is anyone getting hurt? is anyone in serious danger? - then let him fall and break his leg doing something stupid and say "see, this is what happens" and then later "remember what happened?") will actually work more than anything else, but remember to reward your son when he is doing exactly what you want him to do.

If he is sitting there playing quetly while you do something else, make a big show out of coming over to him and hugging, kissing, tickling for 60 seconds. This is the only thing what he wants from you, seriously, attention is the gold coin of spirited children and when you yell it is negative attention, but it is attention!

And try to remember that whenever you are trying to change a behavior in your child (or in whomever) remember that whatever behavior you are trying to change will get worse before it gets better. He will get super worse for a little while (testing you to see if you revert - this is where you teach consitency) before your methods (wehatever you choose them to be) begin to have an effect on him.

You must be consistent with him, even if you have no food in the house and you desperetly need food and he throws a fit at the store, LEAVE and go home. I don't believe in three strikes, you get two waringings and then it's over. I have left full grocery carts with melting ice cream because she pitched a fit. We sat in the car while she screamed and I told her we would sit there all night until she calmed down.

But don't make a threat unless you are actually willing to do it (consistency). If I say we will sit in the car all night, I actually do mean it - in the begining we would sometimes stay for 45 minutes (an eternity for a 3 yr old) and I would let her rage and scream and I would just sit there calmly reminging her that until she calmed down we were not going anywhere. THis works great with a bf baby since you don't have to worry about bottles to feed.

It is important that after it is over (my daughter has to say sorry to me or whomever was the brunt of her attack) you hug and kiss and say you love each other. Even when my daughter tells me she doesn't love me or that I don't love her I say "well, I love you anyway".

Perhaps you can convince your hubby that it is his time to step up to being the primary person in your son's life. I would say it's OK for daddy to be the one who spends a majority of the time doing things like crafts, playing and just sitting and reading a book. Does your hubby REALLY spend quanity and quality time with your son? Spirited children are extremeists: all or nothing, particularly when they feel threatened (and lets admit it, your son has felt threatened since the baby came home). Your son is not going to be happy with just a little attention, for a while at least (weeks, months? who knows) he will need someone who is dedicated to him and only him until he feels secure again. My daughter thinks that dad is the fun one and that's OK with me!

I am giving this advice having been a spirited child and remembering how I felt and why I did things (after looking with adult retrospect) and now that I have a spirited child. I am not an expert, but look to yourself, is your son just like you or your hubby? Do you want to punish him for being you? Do you really want to squash that spirit and will? Do you want to put a label on your child that will force them to be someone they are not? Things to think about.


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## Breathe

[[[[[[[[[[[Bearsmama]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Hold steady, Mama. You're getting lots of advice all of a sudden, but you know you're on the right track. You did not create the challenges. You did not create the challenges. keep saying it . . .


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## Magella

Yes, Bearsmama, keep going strong. You're getting advice now from people who are well-intentioned but not familiar with your struggles. Please keep on knowing that you did not create the challenges. You are definitely on the right track.


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## MsMoMpls

Bearsmama is so brave to do her struggles in our public forum- she can take it.


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## Magella

ITA! She is _so_ brave! Bearsmama,


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, I'm just stopping by to send some hugs and to soak up some of the understanding that tends to pervade this thread. You must be made of steel. We're in a pretty good patch right now and I am really trying to appreciate it and not be afraid of what could be coming next.

Not much time since we're on vacation and this is a borrowed computer...


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## Jewish Mom

I've read through most of the thread and many good ideas have been shared. Firstly I think we need to all give OURSELVES pats on the back!! ...just by being on this forum says mountains of positive energy and hope!!
















I hope I am not being redundant, but I have included some thoughts. (disclamor: I hope these ideas don't come across as if to undersestimate the huge and difficult situations we sometimes encounter..)

My goal each day is to minimize my goals to the minimum!! I try not to add much more than: relaxed








Mom and attention/ patience for children. I pray. with or without words.. usually without.. for sanity and patience with children (my hubbie is an adult.. he doesn't 'need' patiene







)

to the extent that I do not go out every day (I know not all personalities can do this easily)

I don't even have dinner, clean house and laundry on my list.. I only do them as extra curricular activities; if I'm not too worn out or tierd at end of day.. my husband is a self sufficient adult t.g.! (shouldn't he be the one to make dinner??!)

...and finally, I splurge on help! We don't do vactions (sometimes road trips to visit parents), I very rarely shop for expensive things; our main expenses are electric and food, etc..no, we don't live in a hovel; I hope I'm not oversymplifying.. (my children are all at home, none at school for religios reasons.)

When things get stressed out around here it's because I'm adding too much for my list for the moment... perhaps others can balance more.. this has come up in conversation with my hubbie and I remind him as 'comapassionately' as possible that I'm just a bit less frazzled than the pple. that he's thinking of that 'can' handle more... regardless, I try hard not to allow myself to compare our/my situation to other families!! VERY IMPORTANT though also hard sometimes. I've decided to do less and have the most relaxed environment at home possible. This is most important to me for now!!! I don't even do the grocery shopping, usually. I give my husband choice: either I'll do it and he'll babysit, or I'll babysit he'll shop with a list.. ANOTHER BIGGIE: (though not always feasible!! I know) I try immensly to avoid any challenging situations - shopping with kids is a big nono for us! (though of course it sometimes happens..)

oh by the way, I rarely give baths. VERY VERY SHORT hair HELPS, and as far as washing face for now what is working here is the choice: either child uses damp rag to do it independently or Mom does it... if I do it I do it quickly and if there's screaming... well I've been rambling for a while so I'll just end by saying (I know it's hard! forgive me for this 'nasty' word) compassionate consistency. No, I'm not alway consistent








..I'm sure you wouldn't imagine I would be, just thought I'd crack a joke!)

one more, when a scream is coming, I try to think of a 'big' word that could size up how my son is feeling; he likes to learn and say big words... so when he doesn't get something that he usually gets, as he's getting upset I try to help him put he's feelings into words, like, "I like consistency!" or "That is frusterating!!" and then he'll be busy trying to say that word at least for 2 seconds









..as for books, I know we're all short for time and several have been mentioned, but I'll add my favorite: HOW TO TALK SO KIDS WILL LISTEN AND HOW TO LISTEN SO KIDS WILL TALK by adele faber and elaine mazlish -they also have a great one on sibling rivalry. What's best about these books is that you can really read them in only a half hour!! there's lots of CARTOONS and even if you only read the cartoons and skip everything else it will be time and money well spent and you can even find the book in half priced store. also, I know that there is a great interactive video series that can be borrowed from library on this book. the ideas mentioned here are amazingly simple and basic and can be applied to all relationships!!!

GOOD LUCK and give yourself a pat on the back at the beginning and end of everyday! also, the best advice I ever got: make it in your routine to take time for only mom (and nursling if ness.) for at least20 min. sometime before noon! find a way before hubby goes to work or whatever... so sorry for not controlling this rambling!


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

Thanks for the replies, Carole & Jewish Mom & oliviagodess.

And THANK YOU to my friends, Breathe, Maureen, sledg, TEAKS for your continued support and love





















I honestly continue to be amazed by how much you ladies "get it". I really never imagined how important this community would become in my life. Over 3 years from first logging on, I'm still amazed.

Well, what I really wish for during weeks like this one is perspective and the ability to know that "this too shall pass". We came off a horrible weekend of Bears exhibiting out of control behavior. This happened to coincide with him being sick, which after almost 4 YEARS OF BEING HIS PARENT I should realize. All of a sudden about 2 days ago, I started to see his mood "lift". With Bears, it literally is that dramatic. I can look at him in the morning and know what I have in store for me throughout the day. And I don't know if that in and of itself is "normal". Like are *most* kids soooo affected by their current physical/health state? He can never just say to me, Mom, I feel like crud.

So, of course, the underlying spiritedness and challenging behavior is still there every day. But I can see him come back to himself sometimes, it's really, really weird. I feel that I can connect with him again and that we're getting back into a groove. Now, I know better than to think that this will last too long! I take each day that isn't poke-my-eyes-out hard as a gift. And perhaps I have to look at things like this all the time with Bears.

Hope that was clear, ladies.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Like are *most* kids soooo affected by their current physical/health state? He can never just say to me, Mom, I feel like crud.

Well, my dd1 is usually very much affected by her physical state. She is now often able to say when something specific hurts or is bothering her (throat hurts, tired, stuffy nose, belly hurts), but just as often doesn't. She may or may not even be able to say if she's hungry or thirsty (which are states that also affect her behavior and mood). Sometimes now she can say she doesn't feel right but she doesn't know how to describe it. And whether or not she can articulate what's bothering her, she gets crabby: yelling, hitting, whining, refusing to do what she needs to do, sometimes a tantrum (thank goodness those happen so much less often now). She's always been that way. When she was younger it was so much worse. And it used to be that the first interaction or two in the morning was an excellent indicator of whether the day was going to be hellish or not.

But then again, my other kids also get crabby and behave in less-than-angelic ways when they're tired/hungry/don't feel good and just as often don't or can't articulate how they feel. And so do I. So does dh. There are days (not all days, but some) that I only know I'm hungry/need to eat when I notice myself getting cranky with the kids, or only notice I'm starting to feel sick when I'm feeling impatient and start snapping at them. Or I'm only aware of how stressed/upset I am about something else when I find myself yelling at someone. Dh has had an enormous amount of back pain from which he is finally recovering, and it has been amazing to see the change in his demeanor since he started to get better. He was so very cranky and impatient when his pain was bad, and he didn't realize how bad the pain was until he started feeling better. It just came out in his behavior and mood. So I think that it's human nature for our behavior to be noticeably affected by our physical state, and that like anything else there's a spectrum of this along which different people fall-with some people's behavior usually only barely affected, some people's behavior usually very dramatically affected, and some people in between.

Oh, and as far as saying you should be able to know these things after 4 years of being his parent....well, there's a lot I should know after 6 years of being my dd1's parent but forget when the day is tense. People think less clearly when under stress or upset. So when we're having a really bad day, often I do forget things like why my kids might be doing what they're doing or the better ways I could handle things. Though maybe I should (thou shalt not should on thyself) be _always_ thinking of all possible underlying causes of behavior, the fact is that when the going is really tough I often don't see them all or even most of them. This is why calming down is so important, and why discussing problems after everyone is calm is so much more effective than trying to address problems while they're happening, and why working out a plan before things get crazy is so helpful. Hey, you're human.


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## TEAK's Mom

I don't know how many times I have been at the absolute end of my rope only to discover the next morning that TEAK was getting sick. Of course, now I sometimes make false predictions that she is getting sick when, in fact, she is just having a hard day. Oh well...

My one bit of progress has been that I finally realized a few months ago that she was getting practically psychotic at the same times every day and that when I gave her a snack a little bit before, she stayed more mellow. She just needs food way more frequently than her peers.

I guess this is my way of saying that this thread has taught me a lot about just seeing MY child and not some other standard or ideal.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled lurking.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
I guess this is my way of saying that this thread has taught me a lot about *just seeing MY child and not some other standard or ideal*.

And isn't that really just about the most important part of parenting? No matter what your child's temperament, personality or abilities?


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

Still awaiting some info from a few local specialist/groups for helping Bears.

You know, I think as parents, we never want to admit that anything is *really* wrong. Like I KNOW there's some problem here, and perhaps much of it has to do with how DH and I are handling the issues. But still there's the eternal optimist part of my brain (can you believ that?







) that always thinks, after about two days of semi-normal behavior, that all is well. And that perhaps we are overreacting or something. Well, that happened this week b/c for a few days I felt that we were temporarily out of the woods, so to speak. I enjoyed Bears' company. I looked forward to being with him. I was excited again to be his parent. And then all the S&**T hits the fan again and I'm back where I started.

Anyway, my reason for coming on tonight is to ask for some suggestions for managing my fury (yes, sometimes it does seem like fury) at Bears. Like, real-deal TIPS on when my anger is rising in my throat and I'm about to hurl expletives, like today. I've probably asked this before, but I need it again ladies.

Hope ya'll are doing well.


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## MsMoMpls

Hi dear, It sometimes feels like you knock on my brain about this time of night. I love how you think. I love how honest you are. I love your realness!!!

Anger? I have this whole speech about your lymbic system- your reptilian brain but not sure I can do it online...

Make a fist. Your arm is your brain stem, spinal column. That takes care of reflexes, pulls your hand out of the fire so to speak, no thought- just neural activity.

Then there is the fat part of your palm, your brain stem. This makes sure you breath and your heart pumps and stuff. If this is the only thing working, we call you a vegtable.

Then there is your thumb tucked into your hand. This is your limbic system, your reptile brain. All a reptile wants to do is have sex and stay alive. Not a bad life, but kind of driven and intense. This is your fears and urges. This is fight or flight. Some people have very intense fear responses, either angry or frightened.

On top of this is the cerebral cortex, all your fingers of your thinking, intelligent brain are wrapped over your lymbic system. No matter how many parenting books your cerebral cortex reads, your fears and rage are interfering with your thoughts. So- when you feel threatened, your fear and anger takes over to protect you from the horrible thing you are facing. It is hard to have intelligent thought when you are fighting for your life.

So, why does Bears make you feel threatened? Why is your fight or flight response parenting him? You have to start turning off the fire alarm and going into your planfull thinking brain in order to be the parent you want to be. You have to take a deep breath, find your plan and respond the way you chose to respond, not how you "feel" like responding.

Get anything out of this? I think I even confused myself. It actually works for me. I can almost feel my panic and then say "Hey, this isn't a crisis" and then parent.

Hope this helps. If you find it helpful, Parenting from the Inside Out is great for understanding brain development- both ours as parents and theirs as new brains.


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## Magella

My tricks for managing my anger, which is sometimes rage (less often now than it used to be), really all boil down to finding a way to pause before reacting. A deep breath, reminders hung up around the house to calm down, counting so that there is time between what happens and when I speak or act, going to another room to sit (yes, they follow me and if I really need to not speak or do anything I just tell them I can't talk until I calm down and ignore their tantrums/protests/questions until I am calm enough to interact-it's not ideal but it's better than lashing out at them). What I've got hanging up right now to help me remember to pause is a picture of a stoplight. My dd1 is learning, in kindergarten, a 6-step problem solving formula which is really pretty amazing. Step 1 is to calm down, and the teachers are using breathing techniques to help the children calm down. This step is so important because people cannot think clearly when upset (as Maureen addressed in her post). The teachers use a picture of a stoplight to teach problem solving, with the red light representing the step of calming down and articulating the problem, yellow light representing thinking of possible solutions and evaluating them, and the green light representing making a plan and trying it. This is a helpful image for me, even with all the other tricks I've learned for calming down. It's simple. Feeling angry, red light, breathe. (I wish someone, anyone, had taught me this when I was little.)

In that very important pause between feeling and reacting, I'm often able to see more clearly why I am feeling the way I do and see what I need to do. There's a book that articulates quite clearly what I'm describing. It's called Waking Up to What You Do, and the author so clearly captures what can happen in that pause between feeling and reacting. I read it after I already figured this out and loved how clearly she articulated it. She calls it the Dead Spot, and the Dead Spot is full of potential. The trick is to learn to pause there, which is often a very uncomfortable place to be, and experience it fully. To fully experience the feelings and urges without acting on them, to just sort of listen to them or rest there in them without judging them (no "I'm such a bad person for feeling so angry" just "I feel angry"). It is in this pause that I have confronted (and accepted and understood) some of the most difficult of my own feelings, attitudes and desires and then been able to let go of them in order to see (the solutions, my children, their needs, etc.) clearly.

It's odd that of course we as parents face challenges that are out of our control, and yet simply learning how to handle ourselves and our reactions can make all the difference in how those challenges affect us and in turn how our behavior affects our children. It's an intricate dance, with our own psyches and the challenges that come from without inextricably intertwined. Managing ourselves isn't always the solution by itself, but is usually a big part of it.

ETA: I thought a personal example of what I do might help. I've learned so much about my own anger, and it has helped me so much. So once I got the hang of just pausing (breathe, count, whatever) before speaking or acting when I felt angry, I found I could just pay attention to the feelings I was having without having to rush to do something (yes, I sometimes had to chose to not do anything for a few moments or minutes-as long as there was no need to save my child from danger doing nothing was a viable option, and I could talk to my child(ren) about what happened later on when we were all calm). Sort of like "Oh, I'm feeling angry. Hello, angry, how are ya today? Let's just hang out for a bit." And as I first calmed down then paid attention I would start to realize that I was angry not so much because my dd _made_ me angry, but because of something deeper going on inside me. Like this line of thought: "I'm so angry I can't speak to my dd or be affectionate. I can't speak because I'm afraid I'll say something mean if I do. So angry. Angry because I just want her to do what I say and she won't. It's so frustrating. She doesn't listen. It's like I'm invisible. Just like when I was little and mom never listened to what I was saying and never did what I wanted. And the day would just be so much easier if dd would just cooperate. Why can't I just talk to her calmly? I don't want to give her the silent treatment. I hated it when mom did that to me. I swore I'd never do that. But I'm so angry I don't want to be nice. I want to punish her. I want revenge. Well, that's not going to help. Maybe she'll listen if I calm down, I wouldn't listen to me right now. Oh, hey, I think dd's just thinking (I don't remember what), that's why she didn't do what I wanted. Maybe I can (I don't remember what I did)." This was an extemely uncomfortable experience. Who wants to admit that kind of stuff about themselves? But I cannot tell you how important that was, even if I had to acknowledge some ugly stuff about myself. And ever since that realization, I have not had a problem with not speaking to my dd or not being affectionate when I'm angry (once in awhile the urge comes up, I recognize it, and I let it go). I could see it, acknowledge it, see that it doesn't help, and let it go. Works the same for me when it comes to yelling or just letting go of intense anger-usually both of those come from feeling helpless or wanting control or feeling as though I'm not being heard and taking that personally or something like that, and knowing where it's coming from is part of the long term reduction in anger because it allows me to shift perspective and choose other actions. Not looking at my feelings and understanding them leaves me only the choice of getting stuck in them or stuffing them away for a time. It has taken a lot of practice, but at this point it helps most of the time and doesn't necessarily take very long (we're talking probably just moments of thought, the key is just learning to be aware of what's going on). In some way, not always a profound way, but it always helps to calm me down and get some perspective. And as time goes on, anger is less and less of a problem-I calm down more quickly, I become angry more slowly and less often.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Maureen and sledg-









I just had a minute to check in before going to pick up Bears. I've been able to read Maureen's reply so far, and YES, YES, YES, this helps and makes sense to me.

sledg-I will have to read your full reply later, but thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

Btw, we have an appointment with a child psych in about a week(came recommended from two people throught a therapist friend of mine). I am having a lot of emotion about this, a lot of sadness for some reason and I have cried a lot in the past two days. But I know we are on the right path.

More when I can...Thank you.


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## Bearsmama

Sledg-I came on today to fully read and understand your post while I had a few minutes of quiet. I can't tell you how helpful your words are. I've told you this before, but your words (and Maureen's and a few other MDC mamas, too!) are sooooo powerful and helpful to me. I don't think I can fully articulate how powerful.

The ugliness of the feelings of rage and meanness I have toward Bears is something that feels really shameful most of the time, and I feel lucky that I have this forum to openly disuss it. We had a yell-free day yesterday. It was great. Of course, there were issues, but they were resolved without much ado and no yelling. Today, I actually had a few hours to myself this morning to do my own thing. And it was so refreshing and energizing and great. I felt like myself. I felt joy and interest and all those things that make up who I am. But then, within about 15 minutes of stepping into this house, I felt again without hope, angered, ashamed, at a loss, helpless b/c of Bears' behavior. His behavior sets a tone in this house. When it is out of control, it sets all these negative wheels in motion. DH and I will start snapping at each other, etc. There seems to be no way to ignore it.

Here's the scene: Neighbor pops over to discuss something. Baby is fine just playing aroound, but Bears cannot fathom someone else having a conversation where he is not the center of it. He's making Tourette's-type noises, squeals, making his toys make big, annoying sounds. I ask him about 3 times to be quiet, please, while neighbor is here. He finally gets a book and takes it to the corner of the rug and starts to read. I watch this, and then I silently "praise" this by going over to him, putting my arm around him and kissing his head. This calm lasts for about 3 minutes. Then, he proceeds to go back to full-tilt volume, climes on top of the cofee table and then under it to move it around with his feet, then goes to the dining room and climbs up on top and sits on the table. Generally making a spectacle of himself. I grab him and say, if you cannot control yourself, I have to take you to your room to play. He jumps out of my arms, grabs a bag of crackers from the kitchen, and swings it full-strength at the sleeping cat in the window seat. I grab him again, telling him that we're going to his room.

You know, I have to stop this. What do the details matter, really? Our lives seem out of control when Bears is out of control. We don't know how to maintain any sort of calmness, or normalcy when he is doing his thing. Which is just freaking out, being annoying, disrespectful, etc. We are a not a "you-do-as-I-say-or-else" household. We're not. But GEEEEEEEZ. Giving him options of where he can go to make noise, redirecting, etc., just never works. NEVER.

We have an appointment for next week to see a psychologist. He can give his assessment of what he *thinks* is going on, and then we choose to take whatever next step he suggests. I am looking forward to perhaps getting us all into therapy b/c it just doesn't feel right that his behavior can have such an impact on our whole family. ALL THE TIME.

My little one brings out the best in me, I feel that I can be the parent I've always wanted to be with him. Grant it, he's only 14 mos., but I've always felt this with him. And I've always felt that Bears brings out the worst in us. Isn't that horrible? His intenstiy level has always just thrown us for a loop. Made us constantly question ourselves.

Sledg-Much of what you say about your childhood I can really relate to. I swore I would NEVER do any of these things to my child. And pretty much at this point I have done and said them all. It is just a horrible, helpless feeling. Thanks, everyone for listening. Please pray that my Bears gets what he needs and in the process we all do, too. I just can't see how our family can survive him, really.


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, your openness and honesty are dazzling. First, just another hug. I figure a girl can never have too many.

Second, I know exactly what you mean about Bears setting the tone for the whole family. We have had that problem far too often. When TEAK is blowing her top, we have gotten so short with each other. Now, we are far from good at it yet, but we do have a couple of tricks. The first is to deliberately be silly when she gets horrible. We do things that make each other laugh. It releases a little tension and once in a rare while, she joins in. The second is just to pause and be nice to each other. A hug and a reminder that we don't have to buy in can make a huge difference.

To be honest with you, dh is better at this than I am. She is my baby and I am sometimes too tied in to her emotions. It takes dh to remind me that we are separate people and that I don't have to be a wreck just because she is screaming on the floor.

I know this is not as powerful as some of the other posts, but if you're like me, you'll take both the profound and the not so.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, TEAKS,







Your posts have meant a LOT to me, too-and I count you among the strong mamas here who are helping me on my mothering journey. And I'm really, truly looking at it like that every day. Your posts have been so supportive and helpful to me.

I like what you say about not "buying in" to the tone your DD's behavior is setting. I realize, right now, that it's a choice. I am not a lesser animal being controlled only by impulse (back to Maureen's words on anger). Although I tend to go into "fight" mode quite a bit. I guess it's my primal response to some kind of primal fear that I have when DS acts up. I want to talk more about this and the anger thing, but I have to go. I really like how Maureen describes the anger thing and I reeally like what you say about giving your DH a hug or trying not to give in to the craziness around you. More when I can...


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## Magella

While I cannot truly understand exactly how things are in your home, with your family, I can say that I too know what it's like for one child to set the tone for the whole family because we struggle with that as well (though for the past few months it hasn't been so bad). It's easy, I think, to get sucked into someone else's mood or to let their behavior drag you right down with them (so to speak). I have found, after years of trying, that it really is possible for us to resist letting dd set the tone. It's not easy, no, but possible. I have to remind myself often that while I cannot control others, and often can't control events, I can always control my own reactions. Happiness, contentment, calm-all of these are within my own power and don't depend on other people or certain things happening, just sometimes it's harder to find my way there than other times. I am so happy for you that you are getting some help for your family. I think, perhaps, that having someone help both you and your dh cope with Bears' behaviors will be so good for all of you. And maybe Bears' behaviors can improve with some help as well. Your family will survive him, I'm sure. And I'm sure that he will blossom into a fine young man someday.

"When you lose your sense of direction, find your sense of humor." Got a book of knock-knock jokes? A series of silly faces Bears' likes? Inside jokes with dh? I find all these things come in so handy in terms of breaking up a bad mood and setting a better tone in the house. When all else fails, get silly. We're freaks who tell a lot of bad jokes, but we're happy freaks. Humor and silliness have saved us many a time from complete insanity. And I still think we could use more of it.

And I can't tell you how much of a saving grace and sanity keeper having a good relationship with my dh is. We make time to play chess or cards or video games together, we joke around, we are always hugging or holding hands or something. We support each other, take over for each other when the going gets rough for the other, we watch funny movies. There have been times we've been way to wrapped up in dd1's challenges, talking about it constantly, bitching about it a lot and we've learned that we can't do that. We have to be more than the struggling, frustrated parents of E (and this is why I try so hard to have conversations with people about things not related to parenting, am trying to come out of my shell and make more friends, and read interesting things but have deliberately given up parenting books, because I have to be more than the frustrated angry mother of E). This is how we survive it, I think. This and the humor. Sometimes you have to look for the fun and be willing to find it. (Not that this solves all our problems, I'm not saying that, but it sure helps us get through them.)


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## Bearsmama

Oh, sledg, you did it again. Right on the money.

Humor is HUGE in our house. My DH is seriously THE funniest person I know, and can drag me out of my funks very often. He can also engage Bears on a level that I can't as easily. We are laughing a lot in the house (believe it or not). I just have to remember to do it more often sometimes. I have a seriously goofy side of myself, and then a very serious, melancholy side. And I think Bears is much like me in this regard.

Last year around Christmas, when things were just getting really messy with having two children (little DS was at that time about 4 months old and Bears' behavior issues were getting worse and more noticeable), DH and I suddenly started saying, "Merry Christmas!" in a very upbeat, funny tone every time we wanted to flip or to really drop the F bomb or something. Doesn't sound that funny in writing, but at the time it was.

I have a tendency to get blinders on reaaaaaaly easily when it comes to going through rough times. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's almost black or white with me sometimes. I'm sure that has a lot to do with not learning all the best coping mechanisms when I was a kid. Anyway, we've been going through such tough stuff with Bears that every nigth seems to be a parenting pow-wow, re-hashing the day's events, reading, questioning, etc. I feel much better when I can even marginally let things go and just for an hour, do some scrapbooking, or read something for me. And STOP TALKING ABOUT BEARS. There are 4 people in this house and one old cat and we have to sometimes start focusing on that.

Anyway, I wish I could invite ya'll to my house. I feel such a connection with you, sledg, Maureen, TEAKS. I know that may sound very weird (and possibly creepy!) coming from someone you don't really know. But I've bared my soul to you and you haven't looked away. If if you're ever in the Philly area, please let me know.


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## Bearsmama

Btw, if you're all wondering where the sudden burst of positivity came from I have two words for you: Halloween candy. The crash will come later.







:


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## Bearsmama

Oh, here's a link I found that has some good info on dealing with anger. Perhaps it will be helpful to someone else, too:

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html


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## Jewish Mom

I'm nursing.. so this will be short: perhaps it might help to think, *"will this matter in ten years?"* I am trying to choose my battles very carefully...sitting on tables, making a horendous noise... well it all depends but maybe... Bear's, my hat's off to you for not giving up!!


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## loon13

Jewish Mom, I'd be interested in hearing more of what you have to say when you have the time, because I'm not sure I understand your post in the way you meant it.
I have used the phrase "this too shall pass" for certain things in my own dd's behavior. But I think what Bearsmama and others are saying here (including me) is that there's more to it to help ourselves than just picking your battles. Things get so hard sometimes with a child's behavior that I can't even imagine getting through the next 10 *minutes* let alone 10 years.







I'm working on it, but it's tough. And then add the guilt and shame at my total lack of handling the situation calmly.

To all:
Here's a great article I received in my inbox today that I thought I'd share. I'll quote what jumped out at me, and I'll link the page to the direct article >>> http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/unconditional.htm

Quote:

Ironically, many parents set out to love their children unconditionally and then feel bad about themselves when they fall short. In other words, their self-esteem is conditional - contingent upon their success at loving unconditionally!
and

Quote:

...unconditionality leads to positive changes in conditions, but it doesn't work if your intent is merely to change the conditions! You've got to make a commitment to unconditionality for its own sake - because you want the power to enjoy life under any conditions.

Our children give us ample opportunities to practice this, and sometimes they persist with undesired behaviors until we get it. It's as if they're saying, "Mom, Dad... I'd really like to go along with you, but I'm going to wait until you've let go of the idea that I have to change for you to feel okay... I don't want to deprive you of the wonderful feeling of knowing where your well-being really comes from."

Unconditionality empowers you to create what you want from the inside out, while conditionality requires change from the outside in.
This just bowled me over. I try hard to love dd as she is and use kind words and actions, but I feel I fail and then I berate myself and end up being less-than-kind (to put it mildly) to dd. I've been trying to love her unconditionally, but loving myself conditionally.








To me, this is again what sledg was saying about not being able to control others or events, but being able to control how we react to events.
Does this strike a chord with anyone else? Bearsmama does this help at all regarding your feelings of shame and guilt?










Loon


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## Magella

Yes, yes yes!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
...unconditionality leads to positive changes in conditions, but it doesn't work if your intent is merely to change the conditions! You've got to make a commitment to unconditionality for its own sake - because you want the power to enjoy life under any conditions.

This is so important. I find a lot of freedom suddenly when I accept myself as is, as I am right now in all my imperfect glory. Suddenly when I'm unconditionally accepting of myself I see all the positives, I can do better, life is fun, things aren't as overwhelming, everything gets better. But it doesn't come from wanting to change myself, it comes from accepting that this is what I do well and this is what I'm not doing so well right now and that's okay. I'll work with what I've got right now. I can focus mainly on what I'm not doing well and think about how I should change and how badly I'm failing and how much I don't measure up to my image of an ideal parent, and create more difficulty and unhappiness. Or I can take a look at my whole self and see what strengths I have already and which mistakes I've made that I can learn from, and create a lot more confidence and peace.

Likewise, I find a lot of freedom in accepting my children "as is" and to see not just their challenging behaviors but their whole selves, all the wonderful things they do as well as the frustrating things. "How can I work with who they are and what they're doing to get through this moment and get our needs met?" as opposed to "what am I doing wrong and how can I change their behavior?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
Unconditionality empowers you to create what you want from the inside out, while conditionality requires change from the outside in.











I can't change my kids. I can change how I perceive them, how I perceive myself, and how I respond internally to their actions. And in doing so, I can be more happy and confident and our home can be more peaceful. Out of those internal changes flow the external gentle parenting behaviors that I aspire to.


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## Tanibani

Loon







Thank you for posting that article. I think that helps illuminate the pickle I've been in.

I'm always doing stuff for my children, then I end up feeling exhausted.









I couldn't exactly figure out what was wrong, let alone how to change it. I have a friend who parents via Continuum Concept (and is the BEST mother I've ever seen). I'm so envious of how calm she is and how well-behaved her kids are. That article helped me to see that perhaps that is how she treats herself.

Thanks again.


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## Jewish Mom

The judgement issue, (judging children or myself as a mother, wife, individual...) as recently addressed by loon13 & sledg and others, is the most difficult and yet the most integral for patient response from me. The phrase that I included previously helps me to focus my energy and that was why I mentioned it.. perhaps it's something personal. I recall reading suggestions of other tactics that help to regain an equalibrium of sorts.. of course what might work for one won't always work for another..

I want to thank everyone here for sharing their experiences and wisdom... I will also apologize for inadvertently adding guilt or shame.. that was never an intention! ..perhaps, for now, it might be more appropriate for me to learn quietly from observation)


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
My little one brings out the best in me, I feel that I can be the parent I've always wanted to be with him. Grant it, he's only 14 mos., but I've always felt this with him. And I've always felt that Bears brings out the worst in us. Isn't that horrible? His intenstiy level has always just thrown us for a loop. Made us constantly question ourselves.

I found myself having the same feelings about Cole. Y'know, I think Sledg has really hit some important points... things that I've found to be true and work for our family anyway. Changing my reaction and the way I looked at things helped us in more ways than I can count. Trying to take those moments before reacting to stop the rage (well it was rage for me anyway, at times). And really, picking the battles was important for me too. I personally had issues with the expectations I had placed on Cole. I just had the vision of how I'd be with my kids and I had to throw it out the window and work with what I have.

Having 4 kids requires me to be pretty organized if we want to accomplish anything and Cole just seemed (and does still on occasion) to throw a wrench into everything. Like today, we were trying to grocery shop. He spent most of the hour in the store running his hand down the shelves and running ahead of me. Or, attempting to break dance in the aisles. We probably looked like the poster family for parents who can't control their children to most people in the store but I tried my hardest to reel him in about every five minutes. I suppose it's hard to be five in a huge store... so much space just makes you wanna run. I liken it to getting on a wide open road and starting to drive faster. Sometimes you don't mean to do it but it still happens. So my method (when I can make myself stop before getting out of control) is to try and look at what's happening thru his eyes even when I know he SHOULD be listening to me. So slowing down and being in control of MY reaction is key for us.

I think age is helping us. The older he gets the better it gets. Now, mind you, it's not what I ever thought it would be but it is better. I think school is helping us, too.

Funny story real quick, Cole chews on everything he can (sensory issue apparently) and school called me a week or so ago to say he had a staple stuck in his gum! They were so freaked out! But by the time I got to school he'd gotten it out and was back in class. He just seems to have a knack for finding himself in bizarre situations. Which brings me to the other thing I've realized in the last year or so... the apple didn't fall quite far enough from the tree I'm afraid.
















Hugs, mama.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jewish Mom*
I want to thank everyone here for sharing their experiences and wisdom... I will also apologize for inadvertently adding guilt or shame.. that was never an intention! ..perhaps, for now, it might be more appropriate for me to learn quietly from observation)


There is absolutely NO need to apologize!!







You didn't add any guilt or shame at ALL.
It's ME who does that to MYSELF because I constantly berate myself when I handle this parenting thing as "less than perfect". I have to fight my perfectionistic tendencies really hard.









I just wanted to make sure I understood how you were addressing your post. And I think I did understand it correctly. "Will this matter in ten years?" is the same thing as when I say "This too shall pass." We just have different ways of saying it.









Please do stick around and join in the discussion!! I am grateful for everyone's experiences, too. So that we can all learn from each other and support each other.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
Loon







Thank you for posting that article. I think that helps illuminate the pickle I've been in.

I'm always doing stuff for my children, then I end up feeling exhausted.









I couldn't exactly figure out what was wrong, let alone how to change it. I have a friend who parents via Continuum Concept (and is the BEST mother I've ever seen). I'm so envious of how calm she is and how well-behaved her kids are. That article helped me to see that perhaps that is how she treats herself.

You're very welcome.







I'm glad it was illuminating for you. I like Scott Noelle's take on things.

Disclaimer: I have not read the Continuum Concept yet. I have never yet been able to find it at the library and I hesitate to buy it becuase I have mixed feelings about it. I have perused the website and articles and even lurked on the list for a bit.
But I always get stuck in the "child-centered" argument. I *like* being child-centered. I like focusing on my child and doing things with her. I just have a hard time figuring out how to do that and balance the needs for myself as well. Maybe I should read the book once and for all.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I can't change my kids. I can change how I perceive them, how I perceive myself, and how I respond internally to their actions. And in doing so, I can be more happy and confident and our home can be more peaceful. Out of those internal changes flow the external gentle parenting behaviors that I aspire to.

sledg, I also just have to







with your whole post. I have had moments when I was able to accept how things are, but I confess I need LOTs more practice with it.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
I personally had issues with the expectations I had placed on Cole. I just had the vision of how I'd be with my kids and I had to throw it out the window and work with what I have.

I am constantly having to throw my visions of how things will be and restart and work with what I have. You'd think I would have learned by now, eh?







But no, still trying to hang onto the control, I suppose.







I'm working on it.
New mantra to myself: I am a work in progress.
Ooh ooh! Just remembered? Anyone ever read that article/book by Virginia Satir titled "Self-Esteem"?
Quote from book: "I am me and I am okay."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
Having 4 kids requires me to be pretty organized if we want to accomplish anything and Cole just seemed (and does still on occasion) to throw a wrench into everything. Like today, we were trying to grocery shop. He spent most of the hour in the store running his hand down the shelves and running ahead of me. Or, attempting to break dance in the aisles.

I just had to







at the break dancing. I know it's hard when you're trying to get stuff done, but still







! I do love to see kids in their happy creative moods.

And I envy you that you have 4 children and are *organized*.
I cannot even get organized with my one!!









Sorry for the 3 posts in a row, everyone. I wanted to break it down into not-so-long posts. I have a tendency to get wordy sometimes.


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## Girl Named Sandoz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*

Disclaimer: I have not read the Continuum Concept yet. I have never yet been able to find it at the library and I hesitate to buy it becuase I have mixed feelings about it. I have perused the website and articles and even lurked on the list for a bit.
But I always get stuck in the "child-centered" argument. I *like* being child-centered. I like focusing on my child and doing things with her. I just have a hard time figuring out how to do that and balance the needs for myself as well. Maybe I should read the book once and for all.

I've read the Continuum Concept (about 5 times, lol). It's one of my favourite books. The child-centred vs. not child centred concept may seem contrary to AP at first, but the way she approaches it, it really isn't (IMO). On the contrary, I found her ideas to be a radical extension of AP in most areas. TCC takes children very seriously and gives them a lot of credit as reasonable, intelligent beings (i.e. the tribe she was with let 18 month old children handle very sharp knives because they trusted them implicitly -- no child ever hurt themselves!).

Her point about not being child centred stems for the insight that children look up to adults as role models. They like to learn from adults by participating in the world of adults. They also get a deep feeling of security from an adult who they sense is in control. Looking to our children to make decisions for us confuses them because they are biologically/ psychologically wired to look to adults for guidance and example. Adults who are child centred in the Liedloff sense of the term cause children to experience deep feelings of disorientation and insecurity. By taking away their expeirence as children and effectively turning them into adults (who WE look to for guidance, entertainment etc.) before they've had a chance to be children [and learn through experience] they are 'short-circuited' into the world of adults before they are ready. Children often express their unease and frustration at this treatment in fits of rage, 'difficult' defiant behaviour, regression etc.

She explains this a lot more eloquently and with many practical examples in TCC.

It's definitely worth a read. It led to a significant shift in perspective for me when I read it. Ds has so far responded really well to being raised according to TCC principles (as much as I've been able to implement them).


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## MsMoMpls

I just love this thread!!!

Once again I have to thank Bearsmama for the openness that generates this kind of dialogue.

The sad thing is that only moms of "challenging" kids get to face these issues head on, day to day. But aren't these the issues all parents need to figure out? Those parents who have "perfect" children and think they are wonderful parents haven't learned a darn thing about unconditional love. They are completely conditional about their kids, about themselves and then judge us as well. I do believe that being Nate's mom gave me something no book, no training, no other experience could have offered me. As I have said, I have started speaking around the state about parenting a mentally ill child. The response I get is that no one else is being honest about the reality of mothering. How sad that there are millions of books, and "expert" and yet no truth. Thanks for speaking truth mommas.


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## Magella

This thread has me wondering....is part of learning to cope with being the parent of a very challenging child grieving the loss of....I don't know how to put it. I guess I'm thinking I had these ideas of what parenting would be like. I knew that there would be challenges, but not like we've actually faced. What I envisioned was more like the less intense/more "normal" challenges I've faced in parenting my other kids (though I'm starting to suspect that my littlest one is going to throw me some serious curveballs too). What I envisioned regarding what kind of parent I would be was so different from what I've actually faced, the things I've actually felt and done and said and struggled with.

So is part of letting go and finding peace sort of grieving for the loss of what we expected and then moving to accept what is? Or is it more that we have to learn to cling less to our ideas of the way things should be or the way we'd like things to be, and accept what is? (Are these two questions really two different questions?)








maybe I think too much...









You know, Maureen is right. How lucky we are to get to see all this, to learn from all this, to grow like this. We get to explore mothering and the nature of humanity in such a deep way.


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## MsMoMpls

Sledg- grief is a big issue for me, even though Nate is now grown and being a normal crazy adult child. I grieve being a soccer mom, going on field trips, school crushes and slumber parties and summer camp and lots of little things I can't even name. I grieve what I thought being a mom was going to be while I celebrate what it actually was. Again, I think it is that unconditional love thing- I learned to love who Nate is, not who I expected him to be. I had a fantasy of him and I have a reality of him. The same is true with my husband







but don't we all? I have a fantasy daughter too, who would wear pretty dresses and love the Little House books and have tea parties. My real life niece is nothing like that, and likely any daughter I had wouldn't be my fantasy. I could buy a doll for that! Good to keep track of what is fantasy in our lives and what is real. Acceptance is huge in ultimately being happy in life. It isn't having what you want, its wanting what you have.


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## Bearsmama

I am







: There is just soooooo much amazing stuff here tonight to respond to and I haven't even read everything yet. I only have a minute as DH tries to de-sugar the kids for bed. But I wanted to stick my head in and let you all know that I'm reading all these words and trying to soak it all up and I will respond later tonight.


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## Bearsmama

Just a few things off the top that completely jumped out at me from the many responses here tonight.

This just bowled me over. I try hard to love dd as she is and use kind words and actions, but I feel I fail and then I berate myself and end up being less-than-kind (to put it mildly) to dd. I've been trying to love her unconditionally, but loving myself conditionally.








To me, this is again what sledg was saying about not being able to control others or events, but being able to control how we react to events.
Does this strike a chord with anyone else? Bearsmama does this help at all regarding your feelings of shame and guilt?
Loon[/QUOTE]

Okay, I GET this. I just had a little epiphany. I'm sure I *know* this, like I've read it and seen it and read it again. And I hope you all see where I'm going with this one: My Bears doesn't _want_ the power that I've been inadvertently giving to him over this past year (and perhaps longer). He keeps pushing and pushing and pushing and seeing my just flip and move to every beat that he plays on his drum. And of course, those of you that have read this thread for a while know that there are other issues afoot with Bears. But it doesn't help matters ANY to give this "power" over to him. And I don't mean this in a "ME-PARENT, YOU-Kid" kinda of Neanderthal-parenting way. I mean the power, the scary power that comes from knowing that your parent is so affected (adversely), so co-dependently attached to your behavior. I know about this a bit b/c one of the things that I really, really wnated from my mom was for her to have a life, to live without being so thwarted by her children's lives. Even as a kid, the worry, the entanglement, the weird co-dependence stuff, I GOT IT. I felt it.

And I'm not saying that things are exactly like this in our family, but there's a bit of it. There's so much hand-wringing and waiting and worry and crying and re-hashing and all that stuff that I'm sure that BEARS feels that on some level. And coming from the family I did one of the gifts my mother could have given me was having her own life. Just living her life. That's all. Living her life and letting me learn that way.

Does this make any sense? We're giving Bears too much power in this house. It's scary for a kid to have that.

That's it for right now, more when I can.


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## Magella

I think I get what you're saying. I noticed this in our home too-that everyone does better and feels better, no matter the circumstances, when dh and I can take responsibility for our own moods, reactions, etc. and remain (relatively) calm and steady. It's like kids need to know that whatever they do, however out of control they are, their parents will be their rock-steady, firm, calm, not completely blown around by the weather. Rocks get wet when it rains, cold when it's cold, hot when it's hot, shifted around a little bit at times, worn and shaped by the weather but not usually completely changed or broken by the weather. They're affected by the weather but not at the mercy of it, they remain steady and predictable and you know that no matter what you can go sit on that rock and it'll hold you up. It makes a big difference in our family when dh and I are not so dramatically affected by the children's behavior (most particularly dd1's behavior). There's being irritated and even a little angry but still calm enough to be the adult and refuge for the child. Then there's letting the child's behavior have so much power to affect your own moods and ability to cope that you aren't really your child's rock and refuge, you're more like a leaf being blown around in the storm feeling helpless (not going with the flow in a good way but letting yourself get beat up and lost). And when your child sees how much power they have in this negative way and it's scary, and that inevitably makes things worse.

It's not so easy when you face the kinds of challenges a really challenging kid presents, but it can be done. I find that it really is all about accepting life as it is and finding what I need in what I already have or what is already happening (and who I already am), rather than letting my happiness, satisfaction, sense of well-being and peace depend on life changing. When I am aware that the power to not feel helpless in the face of challenges is right there inside of me, then I can center myself and cope without being so dramatically affected by someone else's behavior. I have a choice. I don't have to feel this way or do this thing. I have the power, it's within myself, I don't have to give it to someone else. Even when what's happening is so far removed from all my ideas of what is normal and I've run out of ideas about what to do.

It all goes back to what Maureen said a few posts back, that the key to happiness (in all areas of life) is in wanting what you have rather than in having what you want. And that key is always and forever right there in front of us. All we have to do is see it, pick it up, and use it to open the door.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-Do I even have to say I LOVED your post? I loved the rock analogy. And even trying to practice some of this over the past few days has helped my mood, and after all, isn't that really the key much of the time?

They are learning from us even if we don't think we're actively teaching. You are sooo right about the extra challenges in this regard when your child is extremely difficult/spirited/challenging.

Gtg. More when I can.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I mean the power, the scary power that comes from knowing that your parent is so affected (adversely), so co-dependently attached to your behavior. I know about this a bit b/c one of the things that I really, really wnated from my mom was for her to have a life, to live without being so thwarted by her children's lives. Even as a kid, the worry, the entanglement, the weird co-dependence stuff, I GOT IT. I felt it.

And I'm not saying that things are exactly like this in our family, but there's a bit of it. There's so much hand-wringing and waiting and worry and crying and re-hashing and all that stuff that I'm sure that BEARS feels that on some level. And coming from the family I did one of the gifts my mother could have given me was having her own life. Just living her life. That's all. Living her life and letting me learn that way.











This was so helpful. The last several posts actually.


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## Bearsmama

Thanks, Marybeth. I'm learning so much from the brains, hearts, and wisdom of these mamas. I am eternally grateful, really to all who have participated in this thread.


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## Breathe

Ditto to the last few posts . . . I'm still lurkinging along, not really sure why, bc by most accounts my child is not extra challenging . . . but dh and I FEEL so challenged, I guess I'm the one with special needs!
















But sledg, that rock analogy was so great, and so clear, and so helpful, I'm going to copy it and send it to my dh at work . . . and a RL friend who is also struggling. I'll quote you (hee hee!).







I want to be that rock. I am GOING to be that rock!

And Bearsmama, you continue to be an inspiration . . . I have loads o-crap bouncing around in my head and keep coming back to the idea that I probably need therapy -- or a good, honest confession on MDC -- but I'm so afraid of being judged, that I can't bring myself to tell anyone the realizations I have about how my own sh*t is affecting ds's behavior. I just feel so cowardly compared to you. (not to make this about me . . . just wanting to acknowledge your bravery . . . and interestingly, I don't sit in judgement of you AT ALL . . . curious that I think others would judge me. hmm . . .)


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## Breathe

You know, I really was a rock when I had only one child. We weathered his "terrible twos" and all the tantruming and I never once lost my patience, raised my voice, or showed any emotion other than empathy. But everything fell apart when ds2 was born. Now when ds1 tantrums or is aggressive with me, I can't just sit with him and wait it out. ESPECIALLY if I'm being physically attacked while holding the baby (meaning, trying to defend myself ONE-HANDED) or if the baby is being hit/kicked/pushed, etc. So that's when I have to raise my voice, or push him away, or hiss at him to get his attention. So logictically speaking, how can we be the impassive rock, impervious to all storms, when there's another child in the middle of the storm? Not to mention that the inability to defend myself makes me angry and scared (and dang it, it HURTS to get kicked in the shin full force with those little pointy-toed sneakers!) which ends up perpetuating the cycle of anger/tantrums/rage, etc.

If I'm hijacking, kick me back to my own thread Bearsmama! I thought this might fit here bc most of you seem to have more than one child . . .


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
but dh and I FEEL so challenged

Well, IMHO that's all that matters. _Your_ child challenges _you_. Or you are challenged by parenting your child. Whichever. It does not help you in the slightest to compare your child to others. Just because your child doesn't seem to be very challenging in comparison to others doesn't mean that parenting her isn't challenging. What matters is your own experience, how it's affecting you, what you can learn from it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
but I'm so afraid of being judged, that I can't bring myself to tell anyone the realizations I have about how my own sh*t is affecting ds's behavior.

I totally understand that. Someday you might want to take the risk of confiding in someone though, it can be so helpful in so many ways. And while comparing ourselves to each other or comparing our children isn't helpful, sharing ideas and talking about our feelings and supporting each other definitely is helpful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
So logictically speaking, how can we be the impassive rock, impervious to all storms, when there's another child in the middle of the storm?

I had posted this long, wordy response to this question (I know that's hard to believe







), but as I thought about it I didn't like it. It didn't really capture what I was trying to say, so I'll try to make more sense and maybe be less wordy now. When I think about the rock analogy, I'm not thinking "impassive" or "impervious" as those imply showing no feeling and not being affected at all. That's not what I'm after, I do want to be affected by what's going on (I couldn't stop being affected anyway) and I do want to express my feelings in a healthy way as I think that's good for both me and my kids. I think that for me, with 3 kids whose needs I must meet (and sometimes juggle), it all still comes down to feeling confident enough in myself to avoid getting completely caught up in the drama of the moment. It's when I don't trust myself to be able to be a good enough parent, when I beat myself up over everything, when I look to my children's behavior as proof of my worth as a mother that I get swept away by emotions and am less able to cope. Of course no matter what I'll still feel angry or irritated or frustrated at times, but I can feel those things without being taken over by them when I take responsibility for my own feelings and well-being rather than looking outside myself for the keys to well-being and proof of my worth. When I'm okay with who I am, then I can cope rather well with what's happening around me. It's really amazing: accept myself and stop struggling so hard to change and change happens.

I think it always comes down to perspective for me. I can be overwhelmed and get all wrapped up in that and let myself feel helpless and lousy and what's wrong with this kid and what's wrong with me, or I can find myself feeling overwhelmed and say "okay, today is a little nuts so far but it's not all bad" and then find ways to build on what's working while letting go of some power struggles...and it'll all help in little ways, mostly, but it'll help.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eternal_grace*
I've read the Continuum Concept (about 5 times, lol). It's one of my favourite books. The child-centred vs. not child centred concept may seem contrary to AP at first, but the way she approaches it, it really isn't (IMO). On the contrary, I found her ideas to be a radical extension of AP in most areas. TCC takes children very seriously and gives them a lot of credit as reasonable, intelligent beings (i.e. the tribe she was with let 18 month old children handle very sharp knives because they trusted them implicitly -- no child ever hurt themselves!).

Her point about not being child centred stems for the insight that children look up to adults as role models. They like to learn from adults by participating in the world of adults. They also get a deep feeling of security from an adult who they sense is in control. Looking to our children to make decisions for us confuses them because they are biologically/ psychologically wired to look to adults for guidance and example.

Thank you so much eternal_grace! That makes much more sense to me. I do tend to take dd seriously and I know she's very intelligent, so it sounds like I'm on that track. I think I will definitely give it a read now.









ETA: Wow, so much good stuff in this thread. I need more time to thoroughly read all responses before commenting on those.


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## MsMoMpls

Breathe- just wanted to add that it isn't being judged by us that hurts you... we don't matter in your life. We aren't even "real". What matters is the judge you carry in your head. So much about this thread is about being right with your own self. I have no idea what is running around in your head but would bet that it isn't unconditional love. One thing GD is teaching me is that being harsh and critical with me spills out all over everyone else, my dh, my kids. It also keeps people from loving and connecting with me because I hide my true self from people when I am ashamed of who I am. When you bare your self somewhere safe (here or in therapy or in marriage) then you often find out that no one is as hard on you as you are being. By pretending you are afraid of sharing with us, you don't have to confront that the person who is hurting you is....you. Love your neighbor as yourself... wow maybe that is why there is so much hate and war in the world. Perhaps love yourself as you want others to love you would make sense as a place to start. From there we can take on parenting and partnering and world peace.

Ok- a bit of a soapbox... sorry. All I really wanted to say to you Breathe is we can't love and accept you unless you allow us to.


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## TEAK's Mom

I think that, as usual, Maureen is so right. We are all so harsh with ourselves. I often think that everyone here handles all of the things I do and with so much more grace. I look at Bears and how honest she is and just how hard she works, I see how much Maureen knows, I read sledg's and breathe's incredible insights...then I fell grateful for all of you.

I hesitate to type it, but we are doing so much better here. TEAK has suddenly made some changes: she likes bathing again, she's is underwear about 50% of the time, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, she is handling so many things in a more relaxed manner. The freak outs are so much rarer and she is still sensitive, but it is easier for her for some reason. I think that part of it is just developmental and another part is me fretting less and trusting her more.

It might not last, but I'm trying not to worry and just enjoy the ride...


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## Bearsmama

Wow. I continue to be amazed and inspired by what has been written here. And how this simple cry for some help and support has turned into something soooooooo much bigger for all of us.









You know, I don't have much time tonight b/c DH needs the 'puter, but the rock analogy thing had me nodding my head again to Sledg's recent post. I don't think I could ever NOT have a reaction to my children's behavior, but I am realizing now that it doesn't have to SHAPE me, our family, etc. That, I think, is the difference in how I am interpreting the rock thing.

TEAKS, I'm so happy to hear that things are in a good patch. For me, perhaps this thread will help me to extend those rare good patches. And help me ride them out. I already see the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, really I do. The light is me, really. Okay, here I go, getty sappy. And probably way over done here, but sledg is soooooo right on. And of course I'm paraphrasing here, but when I accept myself, so many things fall into place. I won't say everything, but I can see the light again.

Okay, enough about little old me tonight. Breathe-







These mamas have been such an amazing influence on me in such a short time. Keep reading. The harshest judge is in your head. At least that's the case for me. When i took the step to open myself up here, I risked being judged. And my fears went unfounded b/c the exact OPPOSITE was what happened. Such acceptance and love...


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## Bearsmama

Alright, who did it????? Aw, you mamas are just tooooo much in every way! And I'll get to the bottom of this one.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
But it doesn't help matters ANY to give this "power" over to him. And I don't mean this in a "ME-PARENT, YOU-Kid" kinda of Neanderthal-parenting way. I mean the power, the scary power that comes from knowing that your parent is so affected (adversely), so co-dependently attached to your behavior. I know about this a bit b/c one of the things that I really, really wnated from my mom was for her to have a life, to live without being so thwarted by her children's lives. Even as a kid, the worry, the entanglement, the weird co-dependence stuff, I GOT IT. I felt it.

Yep, I have felt this too. I have heard, in addition to her actions and body language, from my mom more times than I can count "You make me a nervous wreck/mad/crazy."
Once upon a time, DH would use that line when we would argue "You're pushing my buttons/ You pissed me off." I HATE that line. I hated feeling that I was responsible for that.
I always yelled back that " *I* didn't make you anything. Your feelings are your own." DH has come to a realization of this: that he can be angry at my actions, or my choice or words, etc. but he cannot project everything on to me. Ultimately his reaction and feelings are HIS.
Wish I could say my mom understood this, but haven't had good luck there.















Hope that made sense.... Sometimes I know how I mean things to sound, but I'm not sure if it's coming across...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
There's being irritated and even a little angry but still calm enough to be the adult and refuge for the child. Then there's letting the child's behavior have so much power to affect your own moods and ability to cope that you aren't really your child's rock and refuge, you're more like a leaf being blown around in the storm feeling helpless (not going with the flow in a good way but letting yourself get beat up and lost). And when your child sees how much power they have in this negative way and it's scary, and that inevitably makes things worse.

........

It all goes back to what Maureen said a few posts back, that the key to happiness (in all areas of life) is in wanting what you have rather than in having what you want. And that key is always and forever right there in front of us. All we have to do is see it, pick it up, and use it to open the door.











Along the lines of what I was trying to say above, but said with much more clarity and much more eloquence. Especially the rock analogy.
I understood you to mean "rock" as in "steady" and "withstanding" not
"impassive" or "impervious". It's the idea of being the anchor in the storm, right?








Thank you, sledg! I love how you put thoughts into words.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Ditto to the last few posts . . . I'm still lurkinging along, not really sure why, bc by most accounts my child is not extra challenging . . . but dh and I FEEL so challenged, I guess I'm the one with special needs!
















Please do not feel alone!!! We all feel different shades of challenges. Even between DH and I. What he can handle with dd, I can't sometimes, and vice versa.
I haven't been brave enough to confess many things either. Trust me that I am here on this thread because of things that I'd like to change but cannot really admit to others right now...
I find that the *I* am my own worst judge. It sounds like you are being just as hard on yourself.
My worst criticism is when I look at other parents and think "They have x amount of kids and are so collected and together. Why can't I do this with one? Why is my child so much more challenging than others?"







I'm guilty of doing this in this very thread.
But








I remember a quote from a Stephen King book (I really wish I could remember which one, but I never forgot the quote). It goes something like "Life is short and the pain is long and we were all put on this earth to help each other out." I see so much of that helping each other here at this thread and here at MDC.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I grieve what I thought being a mom was going to be while I celebrate what it actually was. Again, I think it is that unconditional love thing- I learned to love who Nate is, not who I expected him to be. I had a fantasy of him and I have a reality of him. The same is true with my husband







but don't we all? I have a fantasy daughter too, who would wear pretty dresses and love the Little House books and have tea parties.


I have a fantasy image of MYSELF.















Seriously, though. I'm trying really hard to accept the reality of myself. I'm finding it much easier to unconditionally love dd and dh, than myself.
<Repeats Virginia Satir quote to herself again: I am me and I am okay.







>


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## Breathe

Still mulling this all over, but did want to add that I do confide in Dh *completely* -- he knows everything about me and I hide nothing, so it's not like I have horrible secrets eating away at me . . . didn't mean to sound so dramatic!

And yes, you're all right that I certainly am my worst critic. But then, who else knows as much about me as I do? Who else knows how judgemental and critical and serious and cynical I am? And shouldn't I want to CHANGE all those things? *Especially* as they color my parenting and affect my children?!? I hate to sound like my mom, but "accepting myself" seems inappropriate when I know there are things about me that are unhealthy or just plain ugly.

We don't need to turn this into a therapy session for me . . . much if this is rhetorical. But truly, if I can see yucky things about my own personality showing up in my child's personality or behavior, shouldn't I work to change them in myself?

FWIW, we're feeling kinda lost around here these days. Dh and I have both been doing some play therapy with ds1 and we are shocked and appalled at the venom and violence coming out in his play. It's really hard to watch that and not worry that either something REALLY BAD happened to him (and what would that be? a baby brother?!?) or he has something wrong with him. Considering both scenarios leaves us feeling responsible. And we, too, are just so tired of thinking and talking about him all the time. I want to talk about my precious baby, too! He deserves it!


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
but "accepting myself" seems inappropriate when I know there are things about me that are unhealthy or just plain ugly.

When I think of accepting myself, I don't think in terms of "I'm perfect as I am and don't need to change." I think more in terms of accepting that I am human and that along with some of the things I need to change, there are plenty of good things about me too. I think in terms of focusing on who I am right now and how to work with who I am right now, rather than focusing on the ideal mother I wish I were and wanting to essentially become a different person-leaping from who I am to who I think I should be in a single bound. I think in terms of not getting stuck in the shame, wallowing in it and bemoaning what a bad mom I am (which I have a tendency to do), but in acknowledging and accepting the mistakes I've made and then forgiving myself so that I can learn from the mistakes and try to do better the next time. _In forgiving myself, I free myself to start where I am and grow from here._

Forgiveness, whether it's forgiveness of your self or forgiveness about someone else, is never about saying "okay, whatever happened was fine." Forgiveness is about letting go of the anger, shame or bitterness that traps you and keeps you from growing.


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## Bearsmama

In forgiving myself, I free myself to start where I am and grow from here.

Forgiveness, whether it's forgiveness of your self or forgiveness about someone else, is never about saying "okay, whatever happened was fine." Forgiveness is about letting go of the anger, shame or bitterness that traps you and keeps you from growing.*In forgiving myself, I free myself to start where I am and grow from here.







:

Okay, I'm not good at using the quote functions here, but I JUST LOVED what sledg writes above. This is what I strive for. And this is what this thread and my friends here have taught me. Just like seldg said in her post above, I tend to be a "wallower" and this has prevented me from making changes, BIG CHANGES in my life. And now, with my parenting. I think it was Maureen that pointed out once the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt can teach us. Like, if you yell at your kids, and afterward you feel some guilt, well, that can teach you. You can think-I don't like the way I felt after that incident. How can I change things so that doesn't happen again?
But shame just traps us. Shame has been a huge trap for me my entire life. I had a therapist that used to say that shame needs to be brought up to the surface, to the sunlight, so it can dry up (b/c it's such a murky thing). I've realized throught this thread (and from sledg and Maureen in particular), that shame gets me no where. NO WHERE. It actually feels like one of those "mind forged manacles" (any fellow English Lit majors out there?) that prevents me from being who I want to be. It's not a teacher.

Anyway, there's more I'd like to say, but I gtg. You are all such great teachers. We are all learning so much from each other. Breathe-you've been a support to me, now I hope to be that support for you.







*


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## Magella

I've just been thinking that maybe it's helpful to think of acceptance in terms of "non-judgment." It has been my experience that when I'm being judgmental I'm not seeing myself or what's happening or others with clarity. I'm stuck in my judgment, rather than accepting what happened or what I did/felt and moving on. But when I can let go of my judgments, I can see with greater clarity what's happening and I can know myself, others and the world in a deeper way. It is that seeing clearly and deeper knowing/understanding that help me to grow and change my ways.

So if I've just yelled at my child and I start thinking "oh my god, that was so awful. What kind of mom does that? I'm a bad mother. I have to change", I am judging myself. When I'm judging myself I don't see all the options available to me, I may not see why my child did whatever she did, I may not see _why_ I yelled in response. I'm just stuck in that very narrow view of myself as bad and I only see what I shouldn't have done and how different it is from my ideal self.

On the other hand, if I've just yelled at my child and refrain from judging I can instead think "I just yelled. When I yelled it was hurtful to my child and did not help the situation. It didn't feel good for me either. What other ways can I handle this?" Then my mind is not clouded by the judgment (which leads to shame), and I have the opportunity to see things clearly. I might discover a deeper reason within myself for the yelling. I might see clearly a reason for my child's behavior that I never saw before, or I might understand my child in a new way. I might see another way I could've handled it so I can do better next time, or I might see something I can do right now to address the problem. Without judgment clouding my mind, I can be honest about what I did and what I feel _and_ I can come to a deeper, clearer understanding of things _and_ I can grow and change.

Does that make sense?

This is why I say that learning to manage the crises when more than one child is involved (or even when there's only one child) depends, for me, on accepting myself (not judging myself). It also does depend on accepting (not judging) my children and their actions-which I have learned that I sometimes do without realizing it ("she's infuriating" "she never listens" "she's so violent"...). When I am not clouded by my judgments, I can see more clearly what I need to do and how to meet everyone's needs.


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## TEAK's Mom

I only have a minute, but I am nodding like crazy. Shame has been a huge issue for me as well.

Oh, and Bears, I'll have to admit to being another English Literature major.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
I only have a minute, but I am nodding like crazy. Shame has been a huge issue for me as well.

Oh, and Bears, I'll have to admit to being another English Literature major.









Me, too!! Majored in writing too !









And also nodding furiously. Bearsmama, I'm a wallower, too. I'm trying to do what sledg says and "accept" myself rather than "judge" myself.


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## Bearsmama

Okay, TEAKS, what is UP with all the weird similarities? Are you my cyber sister?







Well, you're a good cyber sister to have. And during my "trying" times, I really do recall (and often turn to, actually) much of the literature that I found influential in college. I often find myself quoting things, even to myself, and my artist hubby is just like, "huh?".

Anyway, not much time tonight, but I HAVE been reading your recent posts.

Oh, and we had our appointment with the psych. It went REALLY, really well. We feel that we're on the right path. Everything screamed YES, YES, YES today. We just knew we were in the right spot. I don't want to get into all of it just yet, and I'm not sure how much I'm ready to share tonight. Suffice to say that the doc noticed all the things we have been struggling with. Bears has little bits and pieces of many different "things", and the doc said that depending on what you read, you can find a diagnosis. For instance, if we read the developmental literature we'd say, "Oh, THIS is BEARs". And if we read the sensory stuff, we'd say, "No, THIS is Bears". YKWIM? The truth is that Bears has little touches of lots of things. And in the doc's words "these kids turn out just fine". (BTW, his practice is 98% kids and their families with all sorts of issues).

Anyway, we feel that we're on the right track. We have another appointment scheduled in a few weeks and after that I'm not sure how often we'll meet. But our next goal is structure around the house. Does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

More when I can ladies.


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## Justine

This is such a wonderfully inspiring thread which I have been following for a while now - it's saved to my favourites ;-)

I am in the UK and I too have a very challenging nearly 18mth old son and am expecting number 2 at the end of February. I am very anxious about how our new baby will impact our lives and how my son is going to be, generally. We still co-sleep, breast-feed and he is very, very attached.

Reading this thread of an evening (when he is asleep on DH!) has been sort of a sanctuary for me. It has left me feeling VERY inspired, emotionally refreshed and so much inside me connects with lots that is being said here. There is so much love for the children involved - it really does move me. It is so wonderful to hear of different ways of looking at things and dealing with things. These new perspectives have really helped me re-think lots of situations.

So I just wanted to pop my head in really and say a genuine thank-you to all involved and I will continue to read this thread with joy and be grateful for all that I'm learning.

If I have had a nightmare of a day at least I know I can come here and feel some sort of connection. I really struggle with feeling like 'the only one' who has a spirited child as I don't know anyone else here who does. A lot of the other Mums I know seem to have an easy life - can chat on the phone, sit and have coffee, look round the shops etc and I just feel resentful sometimes.

Not that I am really into shopping etc - but once in a while...............!

By the way - my spirited child is the biggest gift and it's a privilege to be his Mum. I adore the ground he walks on but when things are tough it's hard to keep that in sight. Thank you all for reinforcing those things here. Coming away from this thread has made me look at him sleeping on his Daddy with a softer heart and a commitment to keep working at it everyday.

Justine

ps: I really do think there is a call for a spirited child forum on here. Look at the response to this thread - people really need the support don't they.


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## michelle1k

Hi Bearsmama, I wanted to let you read this post of mine over in the homeschooling forum, b/c I wanted to let you know that I am so *there* with you on not being the parent I thought I'd be.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...25#post4068425

I want you to know that I follow your struggles and although I don't post (dh and I barely have enough energy left at night except to have our restorative cup of tea and then flop into bed) I have been been going through similar struggles in parenting and adjusting my perspective to parent his very challenging child. He, who shies away from all the seriousness, sadness and enormity of real life (sometimes in seeming dismissive ways), because he feels too deeply, happens to have an enormous capacity for affection, love, empathy and a deep sensitivity to the injustices of the world. I know, really *know* that one day (if we can avoid breaking his spirit- b/c yes, that's what I fear may happen even though our intentions are pure) he will be an incredible adult who will make an enormous difference with the deep love he has to share.

It sounds like your Bears is made of the same stuff. Hang in there, mama. You are not on this journey alone.

Michelle


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, at least your dh is an artist. Mine is was a politics/theatre double major and works in politics. He just shakes his head at my reading and quoting. When he came home and found me reading The Waste Land to the girls after a wretched day, he nearly wet himself. Just tell me that you are not kind of short, heavyset, with brown hair and glasses or I will worry that we were separated at birth.

Anyway, that psychologist visit sounds very hopeful. I remember when TEAK's old daycare provider (before I quit to stay home) told me that she was certainly autistic a week before her sister was due to be born. I had TEAK evaluated because I just couldn't handle the stress. She, like Bear has some issues in several areas, including sensory, but is not on the spectrum. (I later learned that this provider was prone to diagnosing her charges.) Just hearing that other kids with these types of issues do well helped me a lot. And, she is doing so much better.

Just typing that, though, will cause a blowout. Everytime I mention that things are going well at the moment, she blows.

More profound thoughts later.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Wow, I am still amazed at how this thread morphs and grows and continues to provide me (and apparently others, too!) with loads of support while we parent these unique kids.









Justine-







I think you are absolutely right about the need for a spirited (Challenging?) kids thread here. There are obviously a bunch of us with kids that border on that line between spirited and "something else". Congrats on your pregnancy. Yes, the addition of #2 to our home really pushed much of Bear's behavior stuff into overdrive.BIGTIME. I'm not trying to scare you, but I think that you should prepare yourself for more challenging transition time if you're little one now is high-needs. Although yours is younger, which I think might work in your favor with the transition thing. Bears was 2.7 months old and I think that this was just a terrible time for us to add a new child. But it's all relative. I am so happy that this thread has helped you in some way. Amazing how I was crying out for my own support and it turns out that the responses and helped you, too.









Michelle-







I had a chance to read your post over in the other forum late last night. What an honest, REAL, open, post. I am impressed with how well you are able to express yourself about your challenging kid. I know it is often times so hard for me to feel that I can get across exactly what I mean when I write about Bears b/c so much goes into it and my feelings just cloud everything up. Your post about your child's capacity for love reminds me of sledg's story about her daughter's review/conference at school. About seeing her child in a different light. The only advice I can offer is keep reading this thread!There are so many mamas here who I am indebted to. And there are legitimate experts here (Maureen!) as well as the non-legitimate ones!







And try to get the help that it seems that you need. Can you find a therapist that would reduce their fee? I have more to say about all this, but I have to start wrapping it up here.

And TEAKs. I am a bit freaked out.







Glasses. Check. Brown hair. Check. English major. Check. Challenging Child. Check. Some struggles with weight. Check. Are you an aquarious by any chance? If so, I'm packing up the house and moving to Alaska.I think if you cross your fingers while you say good things about your child's behavior it can prevent the blow out from happening.

I've been keeping track of Bear's behavior for the past few days and writing things down. For some reason, it seems to be helping me gain some perspective on this whole thing.

Also, another thing that I've been working hard at doing is trying to get over my anger fast. Today was generally a good day with Bears, but I had some flashes of anger. But they didn't last long, I didn't get too preachy (which is something I can do sometimes, and I didn't feel the need to rehash things too much. Speaking of which, the doc mentioned that kids like Bears need ACTION not words. Which makes so much sense. And unfortunately his mama is a talker.

More when I can, ladies.


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## TEAK's Mom

Well, it looks like there is one difference between us, Bears, I'm a Sagittarius. But, you're still welcome here in the Last Frontier.


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## Bearsmama

Dang it, TEAKS. I was hoping I had a twin out there!









After my really positive post last night, after feeling so positive and hopeful and all that (which I think was/is reflected in the way I express my feelings on this thread), today was JUST DREADFUL. I am posting this b/c I want everyone to know, especially the newer mamas to this thread that have challenging children, that I AM SOOOOOO IN THE TRENCHES with you. We're up, we're down, we're never really *just okay*. Bears started the day off with spitting in my face. And ended with a grand mal tantrum that included public urination (him, not me), screaming (him and a little me), and major, major tears (him, and later, ME).

Thanks for everyone continuuing with this thread.


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## MsMoMpls

Well darling, as long as the public urination wasn't you- the day wasn't all that bad now was it?









It is so important to keep things in perspective.

My nearly 4 year, who I have always considered easy going, is driving me absolutely nuts. I thought I was so wise and so patient and "cured" as a yeller. Well, I was just waiting for the endless questions stage to start losing it regularly. Luckily so far, I just blow a gasket for a second, not saying anything too horrible and then pull it together. Someone recently told me that the answer is to lose it and recover fast enough that no one really notices how crazy you are. Thats my goal and I am sticking to it.

Love to all wonderfully, challenged mommas and the ones they love.

Maureen


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Someone recently told me that the answer is to lose it and recover fast enough that no one really notices how crazy you are.









Oh that is so great! That's kind of what I've been doing lately, since suddenly our paradise is not so wonderful. I'm doing things like yelling "DD1!!!!" then quickly getting myself together to continue the sentence in a calm manner.







: It's an improvement.

Bearsmama, I'm glad the help you've gotten so far resonates with you and I hope it continues to help. I wanted to say that I'm a talker/lecturer too, and my kids really need me to just shut up and I have such a hard time with that. They respond so well to "say it once, shut up, act" (even if the action is just waiting), but I have such a hard time with that. I get the old verbal diarrhea started, then they tune me out, and it all goes downhill from there. I've stopped to listen to myself, and I want to tune me out too.









Oh, and I'm right there with you in a rough patch here. We've gone from "wonderful, maybe she's outgrowing it all, our home is becoming peaceful and harmonious" to "oh my god, here we go again, so much for her outgrowing it, and so much for zen and the art of parenting."







Some days I just want to


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## jordmoder

hello, mamas!









I've been lurking for some time and as a pp mentioned, getting such support, and good ideas, and ... well, here I go

even though intellectually I *know* that my children are not unusual (per se!) it is so HARD to be the family that people roll their eyes at and say things like "well, you've certainly got your hands full!" etc. Sigh. And in general, the community we live in mean it in a supportive, well-intentioned way! We have two phenomenal, dynamic, spirited, DIFFICULT there I've said it sons, just 6 and just 3 1/2.

All of your honesty, love, appreciation, frustration and tenderness resonates out of your posts, and I wanted to extend my heartfelt thanks that there is this forum for me to touch into, and remember just how wonderful my children are, and even better, how wonderful they WILL be - and how much work I can and will and need to do with myself.

Oh, and I get verbal diarrhea too ... do you suppose that trait is a given for mothers with challenging children???

Barbara

edited to add that when DS #1 was 3 a common response to my description of our ... dance ... was "I think he needs to see a counsellor, psychiatrist, etc." and you know, if may have helped us at the time, but we have come through the other side ... and now it is DS #2 that we hear that about.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*







Oh that is so great! That's kind of what I've been doing lately, since suddenly our paradise is not so wonderful. I'm doing things like yelling "DD1!!!!" then quickly getting myself together to continue the sentence in a calm manner.







: It's an improvement.


I've been doing a bit of that too. My yelling is a fairly good sized issue for us as a family (I apparently rubbed off on everyone... even DH who wasn't a yeller when we met). So I approached the kids, specifically my DD, last week and we've made an agreement to try really hard to take it down a notch. I'm still slipping up but trying to recover mid sentence.







My DD just looks at me funny but hey... at least she sees I'm making an effort to change my tone. Not yelling is a constant struggle for me.

I'm also a talker. I really have this need to feel like my point is being made. I think they tuned me out a looong time ago!

Fingers crossed, our good days will continue for a while longer. Cole's only major incident lately has been hitting his brother in the head with a rock a couple of days ago. Lots of blood but no real damage. Maybe now he'll take the no throwing rocks rule seriously.


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## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Someone recently told me that the answer is to lose it and recover fast enough that no one really notices how crazy you are.











I love this. And I think on our good days this is what I aim for.

Maureen-Sorry your easy going one ain't so easy going right now.

sledg & emblmgrl-You know, one of the things the doc stressed to us at our initial visit is that kids like Bears don't respond well to words. They respond to action and little words. Does this sound like your DCs? An example of this was that at the end of our session the doc asked if we felt that he had connected with Bears. It was clear from their interactions that they had. We said YES. And he reminded us that he spoke very little to him-said very few words. This made sense to me.

jordmoder-I have MAJOR verybal diarrhea sometimes. Can't you all tell by my often long-winded posts????







: Glad you're coming out of lurkdom. I'm glad this thread has been a help to you.

More when I can ladies. Not like you all need a blow-by-blow of our days, but after a horrid day yesterday, Today was a DREAM. A DREAM. Weird.


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## MsMoMpls

Wow, I hadn't thought of the verbal diarrhea thing... I was so much this way with Nate. One thing lots of Mommas on this thread share is being very verbal. Maybe our kids' natural learning style and our natural parenting style are just seriously at odds. When I first learned about oral processing problems, I started leaving Nate notes (he was about 8- this won't work with 3 year olds) and giving directions simply and clearly while touching him, and making sure he understood and could repeat back. I still know that when I start to lecture him, I lose him. If he calls for a favor (usually money) I always start in with blah, blah, blah about have you gotten a job, what are you doing, how are you sleeping, and he will usually say "You know, I don't really need this right now." I find it is what I think of as "mothering" him- my lectures are all I have anymore. Something to work on, I suppose.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Maureen







: You know, in Raising Your Spirited Child (and other books and info on our challenging kids) they talk a lot about using short, specific requests. Like, "Shoes, now." "Remember: Coat.", etc. I TOTALLY lose Bears when I start talking too much. I'm trying to remember to talk less. And trying desperately to remember what you said above abour recovering quickly from losing it. That's key for me. I can start to lecture, etc. Yuck.

I think one of the many challenges of having kids like ours is that there doesn't seem to be a recipe for a good day. Yes, I know the ingredients for a bad day sometimes (little sleep on both of our parts, being sick, etc). But when things were so great yesterday I couldn't (and still can't) put my finger on what I did or what he did to make this happen. It just WAS. And perhaps after a string of these kind of days I'll see some sort of pattern. But often times ya just don't know.

Still so thrilled that this thread is still alive and kicking!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Maybe our kids' natural learning style and our natural parenting style are just seriously at odds.

Interesting. I've always thought that my whole way of being and my daughter's way of being are seriously at odds, but that's probably a gross exaggeration. Along the same lines, I love the idea of Rosenberg's Non-Violent Communication, and all the talking a la "How to Talk So Your Child Will Listen..."-it appeals to me, and to my verbose and feelings-oriented nature. But all that talking is so _not_ effective with my dd1 most of the time. Works great with my son, though. Actually, as I'm thinking of it these things can work if dd1 is calm-as a preventive talk or a post-episode talk now that she's older-provided I keep it _short_.


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## loon13

I am also guilty of talking too much. But honestly, I sometimes don't know *how* to show rather than talk. I struggle with it a lot.

Example: DD is very good about waiting on the slide at the playground until the child in front of her is off. Trouble is, too many of the kids slide down and then run back up, again and again. And there is poor dd waiting and waiting and waiting and then other kids will walk around her to slide down the slide. So I had to keep asking the kids to each take turns please, and it was dd's turn. And I told dd that while it was nice for her to wait for others, if she waited too long she wasn't getting her turn. And still she sat.
Finally I just had to tell her "Your turn, go!" And she did.

Obviously, that worked better, keeping the talking short and simple.








But I want her to know the why behind it. To explain what's going on.

Usually I wait for dd to ask questions, but I struggle to balance offering explanations and waiting for the questions.

DD is sensitive and can get overwhelmed when playing with other kids. She LOVES to seek out other kids, but has trouble asserting herself. I try to be on hand to help out. But I want to do so in a way that rather than her waiting for me to come in and fix the situation, I want to give her the tools to eventually handle the situation herself.

Does any of this make sense? Am I coming across? Because I have just once again demonstrated the verbal diarrhea syndrome.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
sledg & emblmgrl-You know, one of the things the doc stressed to us at our initial visit is that kids like Bears don't respond well to words. They respond to action and little words. Does this sound like your DCs?

Bearsmama, I meant to respond to this yesterday but it was a nutty day and I forgot. This totally sounds like my dd1 when she's "upset". She's funny, because when she's calm and relaxed (and dh and I are too) she responds so well to talking. Talking is not something that helps in the midst of crisis. We can explain gravity with words, talk about all kinds of fascinating things, and we can in calm moments talk about feelings and expectations. But once it comes to redirecting her when she's yelling or hitting or helping her when she's upset, words just make it all worse. Definitely stepping in to act or just being there in a silent but supportive way (depending on the situation) is the way to go. It's as though she's already got enough to do processing her own experience, and words overload her.

loon13, I've been in similar situations with my dd and I think that while you're at the slide the best thing to do is say "your turn, go!". I figure that out at the playground there's so much going on that keeping it simple is best. Later when we're in the car or at home we can talk about how to take turns, and maybe role-play. And I figure that even if we don't get into deep explanations, the simple guidance about when to take a turn combined with their observations of other kids teaches them a lot. I'm learning, slowly but surely, that simple is often better. It doesn't all have to be rocket science.

Teaching assertiveness is something I'm often confused about. I would not describe myself as assertive, even though I can and often do make sure my own needs get met. I have no idea how to teach assertiveness, so I'm muddling through trying my best. I figure part of it is encouraging my kids to speak up to make sure their needs are met, and part of it is modeling by making sure I'm speaking up to make sure my own needs are met.

Ooooh, on a related topic, I finally made it to a meeting of the local chapter of Attachment Parenting International. I've been meaning to go for years now, and I finally did it. They had a guest speaker who talked about Non-Violent Communication and it was wonderful. I read the book awhile back, and it seemed so wordy but I learned the most amazing thing from this meeting: communication does not have to be wordy! (Of course I've just been very wordy again







)


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## addiesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Teaching assertiveness is something I'm often confused about. I would not describe myself as assertive, even though I can and often do make sure my own needs get met. I have no idea how to teach assertiveness, so I'm muddling through trying my best. I figure part of it is encouraging my kids to speak up to make sure their needs are met, and part of it is modeling by making sure I'm speaking up to make sure my own needs are met.

Hi - I'm new to this thread, I hope you don't mind me popping in. So many things here, I can relate to. Maybe I'll talk about my spirited girl a little more later (kinda short on time - hers, not mine KWIM!







), but wanted to comment on the above.

This is something that I struggle with too. DD tends to be fairly aggressive in some situations (younger kids, kids her age, us, one-on-one situations), but will hang back in other situations (larger groups, older kids) and I've found it very hard to balance teaching her self-control (she is a big hitter, pusher, grabber) with asserting her own needs. I read something in 'Parenting without Punishment' that hit home to me, something about when you use punishment - it extinguishes the behaviour in ALL situations. While I would like change her hitting behaviour with playdates, I certainly wouldn't mind her hitting her way out of a stranger trying to coax her into a car. But how you do this is beyond me.

Gotta run......


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## Justine

Hi all,

Just having a catch up on here - seem to be many challenged Mamas out there who are finding support here, fab.

BearsMama - thankyou for the reply and of course I know you don't mean to scare me re: baby no2 - I really appreciate knowing about these experiences. I definately feel concerned about the impact it will have. The baby was unplanned - we always wanted a second child but perhaps not so soon.

Myself and DH are pretty highly strung generally and don't react too well to stress. I sometimes think DS1 is this way because of us, but also something you said in a previous post struck a chord. It was a difficult labour, delivered by ventouse in the end (was a homebirth transfer)







then he had a seizure shortly after birth and in hindsight didn't have much contact from me, due to being in special care for a lot of the time - although we have a very close bond and there were no issues with bonding. Anyway - it does cross my mind from time to time how much effect this has had on him. A fairly mild experience compared to what some people go through but nonetheless - you just don't know the implications do you?

As I said - he's very attached, co-sleeps and breastfeeds - and I have swung between trying to wean him in every sense of the word ie from the bed, the breast etc - to then feeling 'no, this doesn't feel right' and we will manage when no2 arrives. Am I kidding myself...................?! ;-) I want the transition to be as smooth as possible (don't we all) but how do I prepare for that....................? It's looking increasingly like tandem nursing which in principle shouldn't be a problem, but 'needs being met' for all of us is going to be hard.

One of DS1's main traits is to just shout, point and demand until he has got what it is he wants. He's 18mths and doesn't talk much so that is his way of communicating at the moment. So, for eg: 6am, breakfast time - putting his breakfast together and he is just constantly whining, shouting, pointing, until it is done. The pressure is immense especially at that time of the morning. He does that sort of thing often - at the supermarket if he sees something he recognizes, not neccessarily unhealthy, bananas or raisins for instance - he will just kick up a complete stink until he has it. Do I just give it him or do I endure an hour of him shouting?

I try soooooooooooooooo hard to be patient, and lots of things here run through my mind about how his behaviour triggers feelings in you related to your upbringing or past etc (loved all that) and how you can choose how you react. But it's not easy.

Thanks for some really interesting posts everyone - please keep this going - it keeps me inspired. Sending good vibes to everyone having a toughie at the mo.

Justine


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## Magella

Justine, I'm glad this thread is helpful to you and so many other mamas. I have just a couple of thoughts about the birth of your new baby. You mentioned deciding to (then deciding not to) wean your little one from the bed, etc. and I just wanted to mention that in my own experience it was actually helpful, in terms of adjustment to a new sibling, to continue letting older sibs sleep with us and nurse if they wanted to and whatever other comforting things they enjoyed pre-baby. It helped to talk a lot about the new baby coming (what it would be like, how mom and dad would be spending lots of time nursing, holding baby, etc., how the kids could help, hold and, when baby gets older play, with baby), read books about new babies, watch videos of babies being born, and after the baby was born to talk about how the older siblings felt two ways about the baby (loving the baby and wishing the baby would go away). My oldest was 23 months old when my second was born, and the first 3-4 months seemed easy (baby slept in the sling all day and dd1 still had as much attention as she wanted) then all hell broke loose. My middle child was 27 months when my third was born. Both kids had an easier transition with the third baby, in part because we prepared more and afterward talked about feelings much, much more than we did when my 2nd was born. "Needs being met" is going to take some practice and creativity, but you'll find a rhythm and figure it out.

About the pointing and shouting, well it's just hard for an 18 month old to delay gratification. My 22 month old is definitely more impatient than I remember my older two being at this age, and what I do is stand firm if she can't have whatever it is right now but offer her other things to do/hold while talking to her calmly. For several months now she has helped out at the grocery store by holding lists or holding cans/boxes. She likes this, she's just curious about lots of things and wants to touch/explore/be like us (and I always make sure she has eaten before we go to the grocery store so she isn't hungry while we're there). If it's a matter of waiting, I try to talk to her in a soothing voice to let her know it's coming (lots of "yes, it's coming") and if I can try to distract her. Mostly it's a matter of not letting the whining/screaming get to me and/or finding a way to distract her.

I found that when it comes to choosing how I react, the critical skill I needed to learn first was how to just pause and observe _without judging_ both what was happening around me and what I was thinking and feeling. That moment (or several moments) of observation helped me calm down and see a lot of things more clearly. _Then_ I could see the other possibilities.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey everyone... just a pop in on assertiveness. Believe it or not, I too struggle with assertiveness. My mom is a pushy broad but she struggled to actually ask for what she needed, she just got mad if she didn't get it. Expected people to know what she wanted. I am like that. An old boyfriend said that I whispered my needs.

Simple place to start... when the kids in my family say "I'm hungry" I always say "I'm cute". My point being so what if your hungry. Then they know to ask for what they need. It is a joke but it is interesting how my sisters kids are all indirect with asking for their needs. I also ask Joey "Did you ask Daddy to help you?" and often find that he is frustrated before even asking for help. We are working on everyone around here asking for what they need or just suffering in silence. For me it helped to figure out that I have some insane fear that if I ask, someone will say no and then... what? No isn't that horrible is it? So if I find that I am hesitiating, I think through the no I am fearing. I think it is really hard with unassertive parents to raise assertive kids so this is one we have to work on personally and then model. Otherwise when they do ask for what they need clearly and directly, we are going to feel really uncomfortable and not support them as we want to.

Can I just say... I love this thread!!! I just wish you were all sitting around my living room sharing a good bottle of wine and my fabulous cheese cake.


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## TEAK's Mom

I'm kind of sick with a nasty bug, so I can only take a minute, but I just wanted to nod along with the recent directions this thread has taken. TEAK, too, responds well to talking when we are talking calmly about interesting things, but my lectures actually make things worse when things are hard.

What Maureen just said about meeting needs rings so true with me. I whisper my needs and I want to teach my daughters better than that. Something to work on...

I'm just glad I can't pass my crud on to any of you via this forum...


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I'm learning, slowly but surely, that simple is often better. It doesn't all have to be rocket science.

Yeah, I'm learning that, too. As demonstrated by my "Your turn, go!" solution.









I do notice that the older dd gets the easier it is to talk about things after the fact or before the fact.
I think that's why I sometimes started explaining/talking too much,when dd was younger. If I didn't do so when the situation was relevant (i.e. happening *rightnow*), she didn't seem to be able to connect one with the other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Teaching assertiveness is something I'm often confused about. I would not describe myself as assertive, even though I can and often do make sure my own needs get met. I have no idea how to teach assertiveness, so I'm muddling through trying my best. I figure part of it is encouraging my kids to speak up to make sure their needs are met, and part of it is modeling by making sure I'm speaking up to make sure my own needs are met.










I'm not very assertive. That is, I would like to be more so. I find I can be assertive when it comes to intervening on my child's behalf. "mother bear" syndrom, KWIM?
But for myself, it's harder to speak up for me.

Maureen, cheesecake sounds oh-so-yum.









TEAK's Mom, I hope you feel better. Sending you some yummy virtual homemade soup and some hugs.

Justine: at 18 months, it's hard to little ones to be patient. My dd still has a hard time waiting, but at 3.5 it's a lot better than at 1.5. Hang in there. It gets better!

Loon


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- this is completely Off Topic... which is weird since this topic has morphed...

Last night my husband and I left 3 1/2 year old Joey and my still nursing 20 month old Zach with my dearest friend from 5 pm until 11 this morning so that we could go to dinner, a movie and stay at a hotel for our 5th anniversary celebration. Except for the worries, the guilt and the full breasts... it was fantastic. So here is my complaint... my babe slept for 12 hours- waking once for a quick bottle.







: I don't even know how to feel. On one hand I am so thankful that it went so fantastic (might be able to do it again soon) but on the other hand I have been suffering through sleepless restless nonstop nursing nights that I don't think are good for anyone. Aurgh!!!

On Topic- Do you think there is a real parenting article in here somewhere? The stuff that we are figuring out is so important and not available anywhere. I want to start writing for publication... maybe we should try putting the best stuff about parenting "spirited" kids together and write and article for Mothering.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas!









Boy, I just thought I'd check in and there is soooo much to respond to.

First, I am really thrilled and amazed at how this thread just keeps going and going and going and going...

Also, TEAKS: HUGS. Gosh, it sucks being sick. Especially for us mamas. Please take good care of yourself. I'd love to be able to bring you some soup and bread!

About the wordiness again-I remember saying something to Bears one time in front of my MIL. Something like, "Bears, SHOES.NOW." And my MIL said something like, "What is he, a dog?". To her, it sounded harsh. And of course, I wasn't even being harsh, i was being clear. I, too, read How to Talk. And of course, it resonated with me, but just like sledg says, it resonated with ME. And I don't think it's something that works for Bears. We can talk about feelings at very specific times. And it's on his terms, not mine. Sure, it seems to be meeting one of *my* needs at any given time, but am I really effectively parenting my son this way?

Maureen-Your night out sounds just great. I'm so glad that you enjoyed it. I have a fantasy of doing something big, like a weekend away (GASP!) for our 10th. But I have two years to wait. About the night nursing thing, have you read Dr. Jay Gordon's stuff on this?? (he has a website, too: drjaygordon.com, I think) Although his technique didn't quite work for us, his words did (we didn't really follow through with it). He talks about how at some point, these very attached babie grow to be toddlers who on *some* level are ready to learn that although their needs are very, very important, there are other people in the family and that everyone is important. Everyone gets a "vote" as he says. oh, and wine? cheescake? You obviously know me better than I think!









Okay, I have so much more here to resppond to, but the little one is up and I have him in my lap and it's hard to type.

One quick book recommendation-Hallowell's Childhood Roots of Adult Happiness. I know, I know, this from the woman who says she shouldn't read anymore parenting books. But this, to me, is the best i've read in a long time. Basically giving me reassurance that kids are resilient and that being human teaches them something. Not quite through it yet.

More when I can. Sleep well,ladies.


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## annarosa

it really sounds as if you are working very hard at it and doing a really great job too. You know trying to make the effort again and again does count for something - I respect you for keeping on when the energy needed seems so great
one thing I wanted to say was - don't be so hard on yourself, don't critisise yourself so much - you are doing a lot, you are doing most things really well and maybe you need to try to appreciate this and have some compassion and warmth for yourself in this struggle .............?'


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Except for the worries, the guilt and the full breasts... it was fantastic. So here is my complaint... my babe slept for 12 hours- waking once for a quick bottle.







: I don't even know how to feel. On one hand I am so thankful that it went so fantastic (might be able to do it again soon) but on the other hand I have been suffering through sleepless restless nonstop nursing nights that I don't think are good for anyone. Aurgh!!!

Maureen, a night out sounds wonderful. So glad you enjoyed it. It sounds as if your babe maybe knew that Mom needed a night off.







Has night nursing resumed same as usual since then?
I had a friend whose babe, between 1 and 2 still nursed all night long, despite eating lots of table food and nursing during the day. She found it hard to believe that her daughter was still hungry at night. One night she tried putting after her daughter fell asleep, she put her in the other room, with a baby monitor on. Her daughter stirred a few times but went right back to sleep! Happened again the next night and the next. My friend's idea was that, sometimes, just being too near to mom at night was enough to trigger the idea of "ah, mommy milk, I want it now". That idea sounds familiar to me, but I can't remember where I heard or read it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
On Topic- Do you think there is a real parenting article in here somewhere? The stuff that we are figuring out is so important and not available anywhere. I want to start writing for publication... maybe we should try putting the best stuff about parenting "spirited" kids together and write and article for Mothering.

If you want to write for publication, I say GO FOR IT!








think it would be great if you would write a piece about spirited kids and be our "mouthpiece" so to speak. I'll share whatever tidbits about dd I've got, if they are worth anything for the article.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
One quick book recommendation-Hallowell's Childhood Roots of Adult Happiness. I know, I know, this from the woman who says she shouldn't read anymore parenting books. But this, to me, is the best i've read in a long time. Basically giving me reassurance that kids are resilient and that being human teaches them something. Not quite through it yet.


Bearsmama,

Oh, the books!! I love books. They have always been my friends.







For fiction as well as nonfiction.

There are so many books on my parenting wishlist to read that by the time I'm done with them all, I probably won't need the advice in them anymore.









I struggle with (one of many struggles) reading books and hoping to find good bits of advice and not reading anything at all for a good while and just trusting me.







Also I can spend so much time reading, I could use the time to be with dd, or sleep, or what have you.

"Raising Your Spirited Child" for example, was a great book for me because it so clearly painted the picture for me of accepting your child and working with them. But I don't really refer to it for specific situations, just pick it up once in awhile for the rgeneral reassurance. Kind of like what we do here at MDC, but I also like having the portable book version.







:

How do all of you do it re: parenting books? Do you also read and search or are you learning to trust your instincts?

I think this is on-topic, because if anyone searches for reassurance and advice, I think it's we parents of spirited/challenging/unique children.







:

Loon

ETA: I checked out the book at Amazon. It does look good. 5 star ratings. I think I need to add this to my wishlist too....


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## Magella

loon, recently I counted all of the parenting books I've read (both the ones directly related to how to parent and the ones about the experience/feelings of parenting) and I came up with over 3 dozen. There may have been more that I don't remember. (Why did I do this? Curiosity. Geekiness.







) Will I continue to read? Sure. I love to read, I love to learn. I love books of all kinds, too. But I also have to periodically put the books down and engage in real life with my kids. I can get too caught up in the books. So at this point I'm not reading parenting-related books but if I run across one that sounds interesting I might. I'm sure the preteen and teen years will have me running to the bookstore. The books can offer some great tools and ideas. In order to use them though, I have to understand myself and my kids and trust myself and my kids and I really have to be aware in the moment, really present. That's something that does not (in my own experience) come from a book, though some of the tools for getting there can (but I haven't found those tools in parenting books, I unexpectedly found the tools that allowed me to learn to do these things in books on buddhism).

ETA that I found the neatest idea yesterday (in a book, where else?). The person writing the book uses this mantra when in a difficult situation and facing difficult emotions in order to pause and not lash out: "I am more than these feelings." I like it, I may use it myself.


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## MsMoMpls

I, too love parenting books and get to write them off my taxes as business expenses so that gets me into all sorts of trouble. I struggle with how I feel about them. Of course some are really helpful. I worry that they often don't encourage me to be who I am with my kids. I also am just intrigued with Daddies! I don't know Daddies who read parenting books. My dh does a pretty great job with the kids although it amazes me that he has no philosophy, no language about what he is doing or why. I also worry that he hasn't considered all the influence his behavior has on our kids. But maybe not considering this helps him be a stronger parent. He certainly doesn't seem to worry a lot about his parenting. Part of that is he seems pretty comfortable being the secondary parent, knowing that I worry about all that.

It is funny. When I asked him about delaying vaxing, he said he didn't know you could do that. He had never even considered that he had any rights to make decisions about his children. Wow!! We joke that in our next life- I want to be a dad so I can just be a parent without all the guilt, and wants the intimacy and connection of being a mom. (I doubt that- it looks good but he would hate being as tied down as I am.)

Ok- OT again but parenting books really get me thinking about how we know we are good parents, how we think about being parents.


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## Magella

I just wanted to share this:

"...I offer you that reassuring advice given to me by my daughter, that nobody's perfect, to remember that anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly. And the job of parenting, of course, is extremely worth doing, but we're going to do it poorly at times. If we're going to be brutal with ourselves when we're not perfect parents, our children are going to suffer for that.

I often tell the parents that I'm working with that hell is having children and thinking there's such a thing as a good parent. That if every time we're less than perfect, we're going to blame ourselves and attack ourselves, our children are not going to benefit from that. So the goal I would suggest is not to be perfect parents, it's to become progressively less stupid parents..." -Marshall Rosenberg, from Raising Children Compassionately

He goes on to talk about how those times we're less than perfect are usually mean we're not getting our own needs met, we need emotional support ourselves in order to give our children what they need. He says "We can only really give in a loving way to the degree that we are receiving similar love and understanding."

I'm also thinking now, as we're discussing books, that one of the problems I've had with parenting books is that I think parenting is a relationship, not a skill. I'm not sure, really, that learning how to connect with someone, how to build a relationship with an individual, is something a book can teach me. Maureen, daddies are interesting. My dh doesn't read, and he's a great dad. I've wondered if maybe that's so because he doesn't worry about how perfect he is and he doesn't get distracted by the books/articles/experts though he is open to discussion and new information. He's just present, having a relationship with the kids. And he knows he's human and makes mistakes and he's comfortable with that. His attitude is sort of like "I'm doing the best I can, I can't know how it'll turn out in the end, so why worry when I can just enjoy it." (He thinks about the future but he doesn't worry about it, because worrying doesn't help, yk?)That's pretty much his life outlook. No angst. My perfect counterpoint.


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## Justine

Hi everyone,

Not had anytime to write recently but still have a daily read! Sledg, thank you so much for your earlier reply re: advice/your experiences with baby no2. I have been a big fan of your posts on this threads 

My gut instincts have continually telling me to continue to nurse/co-sleep etc and I feel it's the best all round. I have good days and bad days re: thoughts of how ds1 will cope with new baby generally. Eg, today - we went to a playgroup and he was intrigued with a little baby and kept going back to it to look, in a very curious sweet way. He has also done this before and it makes me feel quite nice. His expression is caring and loving. What will happen when he sees another baby on Mummies boobies could be a different story!

Loon - thanks for your note on 18mth olds not being too patient. I think I have been doing that silly thing of comparing my child to other more patient children. He is who he is.

I also enjoy parenting books and they do offer me reassurance. What is interesting from recent threads is the topic of being a perfect parent. Am I right in observing that there are quite a few of us on here with that sort of trait.....? I know I am guilty myself. Is there a link with trying to be perfect and having a spirited child.....? Maybe not a link but I can't help put the two together - just a thought.

Bye for now


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Justine*
What is interesting from recent threads is the topic of being a perfect parent. Am I right in observing that there are quite a few of us on here with that sort of trait.....? I know I am guilty myself. Is there a link with trying to be perfect and having a spirited child.....?

I think there are a few of us here who long to be perfect!







Now that you mention it, maybe we're spirited too. Maybe our kids get it from us. I know my spirited child is a perfectionist. She has been since....oh, birth I think. I remember when she was very tiny (probably a toddler) and she couldn't do something the way she wanted to, and she refused help and she was getting so mad/frustrated-I mean whatever it was (it's happened so often I can't remember the specifics of so long ago), she was doing it but apparently not _just the right way_. We thought "are kids this little supposed to be perfectionists? Did we do this to her?" But I'm that way too. So is dh. Hmmmmm


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Wow. So much here. Especially on the parenting book front. I have a ton, too. And I think I've mentioned this before, but when Bear was an infant and not sleeping AT ALL and screaming and generally just being inconsolable (despite co-sleeping, baby-wearing, and breastfeeding, btw) I would read, read, read. And finally, DH said to me YOU HAVE TO STOP READING. YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELF CRAZY. The only really helpful advice I finally found when Bear was about 6 months was Dr. Sears stuff on high-needs babies. I searched and searched and searched for answers. And that hasn't stopped. Although I'm finally realizing, at least on some level, that this knowledge that I'm looking for won't come from a book. It will come from me. I already have it. It's like Dorothy and the ruby slippers. She's had them all along.

Interesting Justine about the spirited kids and perfectionism in our kids and ourselves. Funny, too, that yesterday at Bear's first school conference they said that he won't join in or participate in anything unless he knows he can do it perfectly. Hmmmmm??? And I would say that DH is much more of a perfectionist than I am. Although emotionally, I always want to work things out, figure myself and others out, etc. And perhaps that's perfectionism. You know, thinking I can make it right in relationships.

Gtg, more when I can.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, sledg-Since we're on the topic of books, I was wondering if you could expand on how Buddhism (or at least reading books on Buddhism) has helped your parenting the most. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here, but I *think* you said this a while back. I'm intrigued. I've read some here and there over the years. And the ideas have always resonated with me. But where to begin???? If this is way OT, please PM me if you're up for sharing. Although it looks like this thread has morphed so much that we're hitting all aspects of parenting our challenging kids.


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## loon13

: Hi, my name is Loon and I have perfectionistic tendencies.
















Really, I do though. In some ways, I think I've gotten better (everything non-parenting, lately) and in some ways I've gotten worse (everything parenting!







: )

Talk about timing, I just read a quote today on another thread about trying to be a perfect parent. The gist of the quote is that being a perfect parent makes an impossible ideal for our children to live up to. Thus we perpetuate the perfectionism cycle. I didn't want to cross-post the quote without the poster's permission, so I'll link to the thread:
Unconditional Parenting Tribe thread, post #140

I need to print that one out and post it where I can see it often.


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## Bearsmama

loon-Thanks for linking to that quote.







I think that it's very similar to what a therapist said to me one time. She asked if I would want a perfect mother or a REAL mother? Perfect people are a little scary, IMHO. YKWIM?

My own mother was far from perfect. And she also never apologized or held herself accountable for her actions or inaction. I mess up all the time. Just yesterday I lost it with Bears b/c the little one had fallen pretty badly and I was tending to him and Bears just couldn't tolerate not having attention at that moment. I was able to apologize after a few minutes of calming down and making sure my other son was okay. Somedays I feel that all I do is apologize, but IMO, that is better than not holding myself accountable to my child.

Right now I'm working on trying to use "I" statements. I always thought I was good at this until I realized that I was saying "You're making me really angry right now" quite a bit. I'm also working on repeating some self-affirming stuff when I feel the stress level rising. Another biggie for me right now, too, is trying to recover quicker from the bad moments. You know, stepping away, calming down, and then getting right back into being involved, loving, etc., with Bears. Hard when you're still angry. But I'm working on it.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, I think it's at least partially on-topic to talk about how reading about buddhism helped shape my parenting. So I'd be happy to, though it's not easy to express. Basically, reading about mindfulness and non-judgment/not blaming really helped me learn to just pause and observe what was happening in me and around me. This allowed me to see clearly what was happening and what options for responding there were.

So, instead of just getting angry and yelling and generally making an ass of myself, I learned to observe myself getting angry and yelling and generally making an ass of myself-without judging or trying to stop myself from doing it. It was totally counterintuitive (you should stop yourself from behaving badly, right?), but it was so informative. When I wasn't busy calling myself a bad mom and trying desperately to feel something else or be someone else, I could see what feelings/thoughts of my own were contributing to the problem. For example, I always swore I was the type of parent who didn't value obedience and didn't want to be controlling. But I realized that even though I didn't want to admit it, in many cases I was feeling angry because I wanted to be in control and yet I couldn't control my kids-and in frustration over not having control and in desperation to attain control I was yelling, threatening, etc. Once I saw that, which I could only see when I wasn't busy judging myself or struggling to change/be someone else, I could let my desire for control go. How I was able to let it go is a process I can't describe-it seemed to just suddenly make sense, suddenly something clicked (but really it wasn't quite that simple).

Once I was getting some practice at observing myself without judging or trying to stop myself, I started finding that more and more often I wasn't reaching the point where I was yelling and generally behaving in unhealthy ways. I was observing my feelings and thoughts without judging and then out of that I was able to find ways of interacting with my kids that were much healthier and more peaceful. The more I do this, the less close I get to that point of yelling, KWIM? I guess the simplest way to put it is that I'm learning to be aware in ways I was never aware before.

In learning to be aware, I can take responsibility for what I do without blaming myself or my kids but instead take responsibility with understanding (knowing what's happening, seeing it clearly) and compassion for both myself and my kids. It's shifting pespective from "they're driving me crazy with that fighting" to "I really feel irritated when they yell at each other because it hurts my ears", from "I have to make them stop" to "I need to be in a quieter home, how can I help them understand that or what can I do to help create a quieter atmosphere right now or maybe they need some guidance so they can work this out peacefully." It's shifting from "Stop hitting, hitting is not right" to "I feel scared/worried when I see someone being hit, because I need for everyone in our family to be safe", from "how do I get her to stop hitting" to "why is she hitting, what are her needs, can I help her express herself in a more effective way? And until I find those answers, how can I keep the kids safe?"

And you know, since being able to let go of some things, like my desire for control, I've been able to understand some of the communication techniques I've tried before but that never seemed to work. Now I'm trying them all over again with different intentions and understanding, and they are working in the sense that they are helping me communicate with my children more effectively and gently and to connect with them more-which is helping our home to be more peaceful.

I think I've written a book. Does any of it make sense? It's so hard to describe, because it's so hard to describe such an internal experience. None of it had anything to do with changing my kids' behavior.


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## Bearsmama

YES, YES, YES, sledg. All of it makes sense. I've found that I when I'm really being present in a different way, *I* can behave differently. And I think you hit the nail on the head about none of this being about changing your childrens behavior. It's about YOU. ME. I get it. Not to beat this horse on the Buddhism thing, but was there a book you read that really helped you get some of the basic concepts??? OF COURSE I'd ask that question, right????


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## Magella

Good! I'm glad I managed to make sense. As far as good books go....I started with Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hahn. I love that one as a starter and highly recommend it. I found that Buddhism Is Not What You Think and Buddhism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen were very easy to understand overviews of buddhism and I loved them. By Thich Nhat Hanh, I also read and enjoyed Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames, Being Peace, The Miracle of Mindfulness and Teachings on Love. Waking Up to What You Do (I can't remember the author) was great. I've also found some great articles in the magazine Shambala Sun.


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## MsMoMpls

I would also add "The Art of Happiness" by the Dali Lama.... helped me with the judging stuff.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-This is exactly what I was after. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Although I never need an excuse to buy boooks. Gtg. More later...


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## Magella

Hi ladies. I'm having a really rotten afternoon. After weeks, maybe months, of not freaking out on my kids and feeling really good about how I'm doing as a mom I just totally lost it. I yelled, and it must've been freakin' loud because my throat hurts. It's been like an hour and a half of hell, of my own making. And my poor dd1 was not the only recipient of my fury but I feel especially bad for her because she has been having such a hard time going to school and missing me, and all she wanted was to hang with me and bake a pie after school today. And so far here we are, nowhere near baking and it's almost time for dinner. So I'm off to bake a pie with next to no patience left and feeling utterly crappy about myself. I have worked so hard to not do this. I feel so discouraged right now.







Thanks for being here to vent to.

(eta sorry for hijacking, I feel safe here with you ladies)


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## MsMoMpls

Oh dear sledg... I am so sorry you are feeling so disappointed with yourself. Time to use your best GD on yourself... just let it go, ignore negative behavior, right? It isn't important, it happened. Just kiss your babes one for all of us. They chose human parents, its part of the package. Hope the pie turned out well.

I think you just had to lose it so the rest of us wouldn't feel intimadated by your patience.









Tomorrow is another day. Hang in there.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Oh SLEDG





















I can't give you enough hugs. And Maureen is right: We need to know that even our guru loses it sometimes.







I am by no means trying to minimize how crappy you seem to feel about your day and your behavior. You know that I have been exactly where you are so, so often over this past year. It sucks. It really, really sucks. Please work to let it go. We have to be easier on ourselves. It really is just a giant emotional black hole for me to fall into when I go there, which I often do.

If it's any consolation, yesterday was just AWFUL around here. In fact, the past three days of Bear's behavior have been horrible. I hate to say it was the full moon, but Thursday night I looked out the window and yelled up to DH who was bathing the kids, "It's a full moon, honey." And that's all I had to say.

Last night's crazy behavior culminated in Bears poking the little one in the eye so hard that we ended up being directed to the ER by our doc. Needless to say, our little one has a pretty big corneal abrasion. He'll be fine. But spending the end of a torturous few days in the ER at 2:00am was not my idea of a relaxing end to a bad week.

But SLEDG-I digress. I have learned so much from you. Follow Maureen's words and be gentle on yourself.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I think you just had to lose it so the rest of us wouldn't feel intimadated by your patience.
















:














:
Thank you for making me smile. Now if you could only come live with me for awhile and understand what I'm really like...

Do you think patience comes effortlessly to anyone? It takes enormous effort for me to be patient.

Thank you both so much.







It's good to hear words of encouragement. The pie turned out delicious, and we had fun doing it. I cried and my sweet, sweet kids gave me hugs and drew me pictures. While normally that would make me feel worse, being such a mess that my kids feel the need to comfort me-how inappropriate, yesterday I found myself thinking "How cool is that? My kids are compassionate. They want to help a fellow human being who's hurting. How nice would it feel to them if I just say thank you and accept their love?" So I did, and I apologized, and I reassured them that I was fine, and we all felt better.

Bearsmama, I am so sorry you've had a crappy few days. And I'm so sorry your little one was hurt. I hope he's better soon. And I hope you're okay after all that. Oh, and I really do think the full moon has a lot to do with kids acting crazy. I used to work at a residential school for kids with intensive special needs, and the rate of tantrums and other undesirable behaviors was always higher during a full moon (yeah, that's completely anecdotal). Same with my kids now-you can just tell. Don't even need to look out the window. Now if only there were some way to prove it's the moon that does it and figure out why...


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## Justine

Hi everyone,

Just checking in to say hello and catching up.

Sledg - what a lovely scenario of your kids being compassionate and comforting you. Kids are amazing aren't they - moments like that can really lift your spirits. They definately pick up on our moods and this is a perfect example.

Bearsmama - poor you with your ER trip. Hope you don't mind me saying this but it did make me laugh, it just sounded so funny. I know it won't have been at the time but hopefully it will be a story you will tell in a few years.

On the subject of patience.........hmmmm..I struggle to be patient myself. DH is also extremely impatient which never helps. There's not much yin and yang on that front unfortunately! His impatience is actually a sore point at the moment. He just gets so stressed over really insignificant things and I worry about the effect it has on DS1. He gets very stressed and wound up when DS1 falls or hurts himself, instead of being calm. I don't like DS1 associating pain with getting stressed and angry as this is how he will react in later years.

Generally though things aren't too bad with DS1. He's still very, very demanding but I am really working hard at trying to put myself in his shoes and practice empathy more. I am also constantly trying to reiterate in my head that he is only 18mths old and I should not expect him to behave perfectly. I need to accept his need to express his emotions, learn new skills/feelings and discover who he is. It's all perfectly normal.

Hope everyone has a good week.
Bye for Now


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I think you just had to lose it so the rest of us wouldn't feel intimadated by your patience.

Totally agree with Maureen on this one, sledg. We're not saying we're happy you lost it. Just a bit ...er, relieved







that you are not infallible.







Even in your dark moment, you are still inspiring becuase we know if you can bounce back and regain paitence, then so can we! We give you a big









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Do you think patience comes effortlessly to anyone? It takes enormous effort for me to be patient.

Patience does NOT come effortlessly to me. Oh holy gobstoppers, no!
(Sorry, I watched Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, today.







)
It doesn't help that our culture is so instant gratification oriented either.
I just keep plugging away at it.

Hugs,
Loon


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## Magella

Thank you, loon. I'm so glad I shared, then. It helped me but I never imagined it could help anyone else.

Justine, 18 months is such an amazing age. My littlest one is only a few months older, and I'm sad that this time is passing and that I won't be the mother of a toddler anymore after she grows out of this stage. It's hard work, this age is a very demanding time, but it is so sweet. I remember when my first was this age, I perceived her as so grown up-she talked in sentences at 15 months, she was potty-trained before she was two. But really, they're still just babies. My 23 month old only recently began talking up a storm and she's not yet potty-trained as my first two were at this age, so she seems more like baby still-which helps me remember how little she really is and to be patient with her. Baby gates and cabinet locks help my patience level a lot too.


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## Bearsmama

Justine-I'm not quite ready to laugh at the eye poke yet. Although just writing those words makes me feel that this will be a good story to tell years from now.

sledg-I just bought Peace is The Way today. Also, at the book store I was really interested in another book by Hanh abouto transforming difficult emotions (of course, as I write this I can't for the life of me think of the title). It was a distilled version of many of Hanh's teachings. But focused on anger in particular. It almost seemed like a daily affirmation-type book.

Anyway, ladies, just wanted to check in. Today we had an okay day. I'm trying to be present. But sometime my anger monster just comes outta nowhere. Sometimes I can feel the anger rising, and sometimes it just blindsides me.

More when I can. We're a little overwhelmed right now with trying to figure out what steps we need to take to get Bears evaluated by the local school system. A lot on our plate right now, but I'm hoping it gets him where he needs to be...


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## MsMoMpls

I don't know what this is, but we may have hit my least favorite parenting stage. I feel like I am going to be loved to death.









Joey has always been wonderful about taking time to himself and connecting when he needs me. He has this really sweet thing where he comes down the stairs and says "It's loving time!" Then he crawls up on my lap for a few minutes. Right now he wants loving time like 10 times a day and always when Zach is nursing. They are literally fighting over my lap space. And they are competeing with my knitting. If I sit for a minute to chill out with my knitting, they both need me intensely. Oh- and the dog is there on my lap, too. Aurgh!!! I am going nuts.

I think it is Daddy being so busy and working such long hours. So- here we sit, loving time for everyone and I haven't felt this touched out since Zach was a new born. And it is getting cold and there is nothing to do and I want to be making Christmas presents or reading.

The thing I am so aware of is that this is somehow about my own needs not being met, my own hunger for something and I can't for the life of me figure out what it is I am missing. My life has never been better. I am so thankful for all that I have and this is the life I always said that I wanted... so what is wrong? My poor husband, he is trying so hard to fix me and nothing seems to help. The best I can do is hope that this is a short lived stage.

Thanks for all the support out there.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Maureen







I completely get the being touched out thing. You know, I think we all have those "shoulds" in our heads somewhere. Like, DS just wants to be lovely, I _should_ be enjoying this, being thankful for this. But that just ain't how life works. The only suggestion I would have would be to try desperately to get some kid-free time, with NO touching (like a bath with the door closed and NO interruptions, or going out alone to do some shopping or to get coffee or something). It's rough. I think nursing our kids, and being available to our children physically (of course there are many other ways we're there for them) is so draining. So good for them, and occasionally not so great for us. I have these days sometimes where I squeeze into bed between both kids, and a 6 foot 3 DH and I want to kick them all out of bed!

Hang in there. I love this quote from Chaucer: "What asketh man to have?" Sometimes we may have everything in front of us, but we still want something different. It's not intentional, it's our human condition. It's just the way it is. Besides the fact that MOTHERING IS JUST HARD.


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## Magella

Maureen, I can totally relate right now to being touched out-or heck just plain at the limits of giving. My children are all so incredibly needy right now that sometimes I feel very suffocated. By the end of the day I'm so all done touching, so done talking, so done listening. I just want a quiet little room to go to just to breathe. And it's so much harder this time of year when my dh is working longer hours and extra days. He is my rock, he's the one who comes home and cleans up the hopeless mess I've managed to let the house become, he's the one to get us through bedtime toothbrushing without anyone becoming homicidal, he's the breath of fresh air who renews my spirit and my patience just by walking in the door, he's the one the kids listen to at 6:30 pm when they're all done listening to me. I dread this time of year. Add to that the fact that somehow we ended up inheriting Thanksgiving dinner, and it's up to me alone to get ready for that (b/c dh is working so much until Thanksgiving day). I'm super stressed. I don't know how I'm going to get everything done and keep my sanity. I'm already cranky. Wow, I totally got off on a tangent.









I agree with Bearsmama that sometimes we just need something we're not getting and don't know what it is. Personally, this tells me that it's time for some quiet listening to myself. It's hard to keep giving, giving, giving. And it's so...I want to say tempting but that isn't the word....to keep giving even when it conflicts with our own needs because that's what mothers are "supposed" to do. I don't know about other moms, but I find that I have this tendency to just push my needs aside until I'm not aware of them anymore because that's what I think I should do. It's not even a conscious decision to push my needs aside, I just do it. It's a habit I'm trying to break. So when I need to finish something or need a moment of quiet, I'm trying to learn to say "I can't right now, I need a few minutes to finish this/relax/drink my coffee. Then I will." One need of mine that I recently became aware of is the need for more spirituality in my life. And I'm realizing now as I write this is that one of my needs is to not take on the entire burden of getting ready for Thanksgiving all by myself. Will have to think about this....

Oh and Bearsmama, I can imagine how overwhelming it must be to be trying to figure out how to get the right help for Bears. I'm so happy for you that you're doing it though.


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## UUMom

Just checking in with you all. Bearsmama-- I've been thinking about you. Have you heard anything from the folks doing the assements? It seems you have been waiting *so* long. We were able to get our assements from the public school quickly. Please don't tell me you are still waiting!?

Thinking of you!


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## Bearsmama

Hi everyone,

I keep thinking I'm going to find a bullet, a magic bullet, that's going to make things better. And what I'm realizing is that there's NO magic bullet. I had a bad day with the kids. The only difference between this day and other bad days is that I'm working on breathing, and getting over things quicker. This seems to be HUGE to DS. I think I'm getting my period which would make sense for today (I tend to be quicker with anger at this time). Today I was mad at the baby (okay, he's 15 months, but still a babe), mad at my older son, mad at the damn cat! I always thought I knew my "triggers" for anger, at least most of them. But I'm realizing a big one. Which is ridiculous, but here it goes. When I've done everything for one of my kids that I think will make them happy or content for the moment, and they're still unhappy, I start getting angry. I realize that this probably b/c I feel that I am somehow responsible for their feelings (which I know intellectually I'm not). But when I'm feeding the little one everything he usually likes and he's just tossing it off his tray, and whining and starting to cry, I feel like my head is going to explode. I'm hoping this is normal?







: I have to make a real, concerted effort in these moments to rememeber that they are going to cry, to whine, to want more than I can offer many, many times throughout their lives. And that's okay. I can't fix that. I can only empathize with their feelings, tell them I'm sorry they're so upset. .

sledg-A breathing room sounds so lovely. I am working on getting more ME space in this house, too. Looking for some furniture that would enable me to have my own little area within our home. DH is completely my rock, too. So when he's working more, or in a rare bad mood and in need of more immediate TLC, I am thrown. I am so lucky that basically he takes over bathtime and toothbrushing (yes, sledg, homicidal is a perfect word to use!).

Oh, I gtg. Sorry. More later...
Happy Thanksgiving. Don't work too hard, ladies.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

. When I've done everything for one of my kids that I think will make them happy or content for the moment, and they're still unhappy, I start getting angry. I realize that this probably b/c I feel that I am somehow responsible for their feelings (which I know intellectually I'm not).

That is important insight.... now try and figure out what the feelings are behind that. There is usually some huge fear about people being unhappy around you. This is what we would classically call co-dependant behavior and is often associated in growing up in an envirnoment where unhappy quickly became unsafe. Even if that wasn't your experience you may have inherited it from your own parents. My dh has a serious dose of this from his parents- alcoholic on one side and abusive on the other. So no one in his family was ever allowed to be unhappy. What a bunch of bull!!!

Whenever I am just a bit down or tired or distant, he kind of freaks. In the middle of being wiped out I have to stop and make sure he feels ok about me not feeling ok.. . what a mess of peoples feelings all over each other.

More later... kids calling.

I am thankful for all you supportive mommas.

Maureen


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## Magella

Bearsmama, sometimes I feel as though somehow I've got the idea-on some level where I'm not always aware I even harbor this idea, it's just so automatic-that as a parent my job is to control my kids' behavior and to stop them from feeling bad. As if, as you said, _I_ am responsible for _their_ feelings and behaviors. For me, I think it comes partly from how I was raised and partly (and in no small part) from cultural messages about womanhood and motherhood. (For example, it's so common to blame mothers for their children's behavior.) I have come to understand that I tend to find not being in control when it comes to my kids frightening, because if I can't control my kids (stop the behavior, stop the crying) I must be doing something wrong. It becomes very problematic when I inevitably find that I cannot stop the crying, the whining, the tantruming, or the behaviors that drive me crazy.

Of course, my job is not to control my kids' feelings and behaviors. Kids will cry, kids will have days where they feel bad and can't be soothed, they will act out in ways I dislike. I have no control over that, only influence. Sometimes when I realize this I can let go of that desire or impulse to control, and in doing so I also let go of the frustration that culminates in anger. It's not easy to let go of that desire or urge to control. It comes down to recognizing that no matter what I can't control anyone else, I can only respond-and in responding I always have a choice. It's a risk, a leap of faith-to trust my kids to learn even when the tantrums continue and the food keeps getting tossed on the floor, to trust myself to teach them even when I feel incompetent and frustrated and miserably human, to trust that my message is heard even when the outward behavior is obnoxious.

It's also difficult, as loon pointed out, to live in this culture of instant gratification and manage to understand moment by moment that parenting is most definitely not an endeavor that yields instant results-at least not instant results of our preference. Learning and growing take time, and sometimes we don't want to wait.


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## Justine

Hi everyone,

Firstly a little apology to Bearsmama - sorry for being insensitive re: the eye poke story - of course you're not ready to laugh yet. How is little one's eye by the way?

Sledg - thanks for the last post. I too suffer exactly the same as Bearsmama with regards to getting cross & angry when you think you've done everything. I even say out loud 'look, your bum is done, you've eaten, you've had all my attention, now what is the problem?!?!' A lot of what you've pointed out in your last post is so right. Definately on the instant gratification thing too.

Maureen - also v.interesting post - I can relate to not feeling comfortable when people around me are unhappy. Could this also be related to being a people-pleaser or being unassertive? I am like this a bit with friends and family. Without going of on a tangent here, I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family - with a lot of anger, hostility, control on the father's part etc etc. For whatever reason I can relate to what you are saying.

Three months to go until number 2 baby arrives - yikes!! I have recently been thinking about labour, generally. As I have mentioned before I had a difficult labour with DS1. I am interested to know how many of us here had difficult labours and spirited children. I am obviously pondering on how this next labour will go and how spirited my little no2 will be!

I recently saw a baby of a very mainstream mother, formula fed etc. She had a very easy straightforward labour and the baby (now 2mths) really does seem such a relaxed, calm baby. Obviously it's a bit of a generalisation as I am sure there are varying degrees of tough labours/spirited kids. But just interested in anyone's thoughts. DS1 was spirited from the moment he arrived. He was always wiggling and jiggling and has never stopped!

Be good to hear anyone's thoughts on this.
Bye for Now,

Justine

ps: great quote Sledg - I read Victor Frankl's book 'Man's Search for Meaning'. Have you read it? It's amazing isn't it.


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## Magella

Justine, I did read that book ages ago in college. Since I ran across that quote I've been thinking of reading it again. As far as labors and spirited children go, all of my labors were very easy. I had epidural anesthesia with my first two, and I had the epidural for the longest amount of time with my spirited (and oldest) child. With my second I had the epidural put in only about 20 minutes before he was born. My third was a totally medication free labor, she was born after only 2 hours of labor (or after a month of labor, depending how you look at it







).

I keep thinking about what Bearsmama said about looking for a magic bullet, and how much that sums up what I was doing for so long-and probably what a lot of parents do. But there is no magic bullet. Life isn't something you can cure and make permanently pleasant, not for yourself and not for anyone else. But we can absolutely find a way to be happy with life as it is. And I'm learning that when it comes to my kids, wishing they were behaving differently doesn't help-it only makes things worse. In the moment they are behaving the way they are behaving and I can respond and guide, but I can't transform them from Attila the Hun into Ghandi in one transcendent moment of insightful parenting strategy. I can't do that in even a few weeks of strategy. I can only meet them where they are and go from there, going at their pace just as I would if we were out for a walk in the woods. Show them the path, walk with them at their pace, gently guiding them so they don't get lost and so they stay safe, hugging them when they fall down or get scared, and enjoying the scenery. If only I could always remember that, I'd spend a lot less time feeling frustrated.


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## boomingranny

amen


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## charmarty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Boy- I was a little bit worried about that last post, I felt like I was speaking pretty strongly but you have been so wonderfully open and receptive that I feel like you do want to hear what piece I can offer. So- about over parenting... Think of it this way- some where in the universe when you and Bear make the spiritiual decision to join your souls, you knew that you each had exactly what the other needed to learn. You made a pact to do this together, to learn from each other, lessons that there were no other ways to learn. So you came to this place, wher you would be his momma and he would be your challenge but you kind of forgot that you both picked each other and that you were here to work through some tough stuff.

So- stop worrying about "making" him be anything. He is perfect and you are perfect. There is only walking through the rest of the story. There is this wonderful journey and you both have a lot to learn but not in the way you think of learning, not in books or in lessons but fully with your heart. Just be brave. Just love and honestly it really will be just fine. You just have to get to the end of the story.

One thing when you are feeling threatened might be to sit on the floor, all the way on your butt and just put yourself at his level... I don't know. I know that Bear is here to heal you and you must be making it really a tough job...get out of his way and let him do his magic. You both deserve that.

I am just now reading this thread (where have I been?) and I have to tell you that although all the [osts in it thus far had me in tears, THIS one had me bawling. I hope you know that this post hit home with me and I am sure many many others. Thank you so very very much for YOU.

Bearsmama, all's I can say to you right now is







. I am right there walking beside you right now. The only difference is my kids are 5. I Am humbled by your honesty and courage.


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## loon13

I put this quote on the UP tribe thread and forgot all about sharing it here!









Tending to be a perfectionist myself, I think it is a good thing for me to keep in mind about expectations I have for *anything* not just expectations of the kind of parent I think I "should" be or the kind of child I think dd "should" be.

"Expectations are resentments under construction." -- Anne Lamott

I'm not talking about expecting things like "we don't hurt each other" but rather when I expect my child to be something she's not. She is who is she and I need her to know she is loved as is.








Or expecting that I will be the greatest housekeeper today and get absolutely everything on my list done in fabulous condition...







You get the idea...

(The quote came from a website I sometimes visit: Empathic Discipline under "Miscellaneous: Parenting Quotes")


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## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
I put this quote on the UP tribe thread and forgot all about sharing it here!









Tending to be a perfectionist myself, I think it is a good thing for me to keep in mind about expectations I have for *anything* not just expectations of the kind of parent I think I "should" be or the kind of child I think dd "should" be.

"Expectations are resentments under construction." -- Anne Lamott

I'm not talking about expecting things like "we don't hurt each other" but rather when I expect my child to be something she's not. She is who is she and I need her to know she is loved as is.








Or expecting that I will be the greatest housekeeper today and get absolutely everything on my list done in fabulous condition...







You get the idea...

(The quote came from a website I sometimes visit: Empathic Discipline under "Miscellaneous: Parenting Quotes")

Anne rocks.


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## Magella

expectations can be dangerous....as when you expect the baby to be asleep by 8:30 so you can watch a movie and have some romance with your hubby. Then baby doesn't sleep, in fact she stays up chatting until 11:15 pm. Because you expected her to sleep earlier and expected to be able to have some free time, you feel a wee bit resentful (not to mention frustrated







) when she doesn't go to sleep. Well, that is until she gives you that uber-cute smile. At least we did watch the movie, with her snuggled right in between us. Boy, is she tired today.

It's true. I have found time and again that having a lot of desires/expectations about what's going to happen has a tendency to lead to my feeling some resentment. Okay, maybe more than just some.

Originally, I felt a little defensive when I read loon's post with the quote about expectations, because I was thinking about the quote in terms of children feeling resentful because of parental expectations-I was thinking, "but don't parents have some expectations? How do you parent without expectations? Having some expections doesn't mean I don't love my child." I felt defensive and thought those things because I still have lots of guilt going on and I could see all of the ways I could be fostering feelings of resentment in my challenging child by having so much trouble finding my groove as her mother. It's a real concern, how our expectations affect our children. That's one aspect of expectations. But the other aspect, and just as important, is how our expectations affect ourselves, the parents. And how expectations affect not just our children or ourselves, but our relationships with each other. I think that often I'm focusing on expectations, rather than on the here and now reality with my children. I may be thinking about how I expect things to happen, or how what just happened failed to meet my expectations. Either way, it really is problematic.


----------



## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*








expectations can be dangerous....as when you expect the baby to be asleep by 8:30 so you can watch a movie and have some romance with your hubby. Then baby doesn't sleep, in fact she stays up chatting until 11:15 pm. Because you expected her to sleep earlier and expected to be able to have some free time, you feel a wee bit resentful (not to mention frustrated







) when she doesn't go to sleep. Well, that is until she gives you that uber-cute smile. At least we did watch the movie, with her snuggled right in between us. Boy, is she tired today.

Hey, that's my kid!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I felt defensive and thought those things because I still have lots of guilt going on and I could see all of the ways I could be fostering feelings of resentment in my challenging child by having so much trouble finding my groove as her mother. It's a real concern, how our expectations affect our children. That's one aspect of expectations. But the other aspect, and just as important, is how our expectations affect ourselves, the parents. And how expectations affect not just our children or ourselves, but our relationships with each other.

Yeah, I get the defensive part. It took me a bit of thinking about the quote before I posted it.
We are all human, I don't think it's possible NOT to have expectations. But I think it's more realistic and useful to be aware of what your expectations are, and realize how they might be clouding your view of something.

And if this thread isn't about self-awareness, I don't know what is!


----------



## Magella

So your kid doesn't sleep either? It's like mine know when we have "plans"...it's some kind of pheromone-sensing sibling-prevention alert system. (Uh, not that we're planning on more siblings...don't want to leave that impression.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
But I think it's more realistic and useful to be aware of what your expectations are, and realize how they might be clouding your view of something.









ITA!!
I'm very glad you posted that quote. It made me think. I have found that when I feel defensive, that's a clue that I should be looking within at my own feelings, etc.-feeling defensive isn't about what someone did or said, it's about my own insecurities, fears, guilt, or whatever.

It's amazing what can cloud your view of something-expectations, assumptions, thoughts, feelings, desires. Awareness is a precious and liberating gift that only you can give yourself, and one that takes regular effort to maintain.

And yeah, this thread has evolved into a fantastic discussion of self-awareness. Who would've thought?


----------



## emblmrgrl

Hey all... haven't had anything to add lately but I'm still reading.

I have big issues with expectations. I'm fairly sure I've mentioned it already but it's such a factor in my relationship with my son. My daughter (the oldest) has just always been so much easier to relate to. She's the kind of kid that you get what you expect with her. You expect a lot, you get a lot. Don't expect much? She won't give you much. So when Cole came along, I, of course, parented him the same way in the beginning. His twin responds more like his sister did but him... wow. I've worked on removing expectations from situations before, but for some reason it took me a long time, and is an ongoing struggle, to see that I needed to do that with him too.

My littlest one seems to have that mama radar, as well, and any plans for any lovin' usually get shot all to hell. Which brings me to the point about being present in the moment and how the expectations hinder that. I recently realized that when I am able to steal 10 mins. with my husband, sans children, I'm ALWAYS thinking of other things. It's really frustrating for me but I'm not sure how to stop it. So that's my latest challenge... being in the moment.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Ladies,
I must sound like a broken record, but I am still BLOWN away at the life this thread has taken on.

Maureen-I come from a fairly dysfunctional household, so the co-dependent stuff rings true to me. So, my therapist friend, how do I get over this desire when it crops up? You know what's funny, I always think of myself as someone who tries to help the kids be okay with their feelings, whatever they are. But as I look at things closely, I realize that there are certain emotions that come up in them that make me nutty.

sledg-I am trying really hard to tend to my needs better. I am trying to remind myself that it's okay to tell Bears that I need him to leave me alone for a few minutes b/c I feel myself getting angry. I just have to remember to use an *I* statement. I have, unfortunately, said *You* many times before. That doesn't go wel, as we all know.

Justine-No need to apologize! As far as your theory goes, Bears has been a spirited kid since birth and YES, YES, YES, his labor was tremendously difficult. Very hard, vaginal delivery with Bears having some breathing difficulties right at birth. Assisted by a vacuum extraction.







:

loon & UU-I LOVE ANNE LAMOTT. Great quote.

emblm-Being in the moment with my kids (and DH, too) is a tough one for me, too. Although I have been much better with it lately. I've been taking a lot of mental snapshots of moments with the kids. And actually, I am not that anal about household expectations at all. So pretty much chores, cleaning and other stuff can ALWAYS wait for just rolling around on the carpet with the kids. So, actually, I guess I'm better at that then I think!







We have some financial difficulties going on right now, so I really have been trying to remember what's important in the moment.

Ladies, I have so much more to say, and I don't feel that I am ever eloquent or articulate enough to really say what I feel. I always leave this thread thinking that I have a novel to write on what all you great mamas have already posted. More when I can...Love and thanks to you all.


----------



## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Maureen-I come from a fairly dysfunctional household, so the co-dependent stuff rings true to me. So, my therapist friend, how do I get over this desire when it crops up? You know what's funny, I always think of myself as someone who tries to help the kids be okay with their feelings, whatever they are. But as I look at things closely, I realize that there are certain emotions that come up in them that make me nutty.


Well as usual, admitting it is half the battle, isn't it? I think if you watch for your discomfort with other people's "negative" feelings, you will learn a whole lot about what you are not allowing in yourself. Sometimes I just try and sit with my 3 year olds' hurt without fixing it or minimizing it... just feeling how hurt he really is. (You know, the horrible hurt of being out of popcicles!) It is good practice for me.

Honestly I learned so much from my clients. There is something about sharing trauma with people and learning to really respect the power of pain and suffering. I try to remember that people almost only grow through struggle so why would I want to keep my children's lives free of struggle?

No one moves forward until they feel heard. No one wants to change unless they know someone sees what they are. So... just stop trying to fix and change and help and just experience... pain and frustrations and disappointments.

On another topic, this thread has me struggling with my own thoughts about expectations. In marital work, I work a great deal on resentment which is deadly to marriage. Especially resentful wives... we can get pretty cold when we are holding onto the past. So if expectations grow resentments... and I can certainly see that... then how does one actually marry with no expectations? Is that possible? And isn't lowering your expectations for your marriage (especially for women) kind of selling out?

See I think I do a way better job of unconditional love with my kids then my dh... although knowing that has helped a ton. Now I try to love and give and accept him as much as possible the way I want to love them... fully and generously. But that expectation thing has me messed up. I suppose it is just impossible to think about going through life expectation free... that would be something wouldn't it?

Boy this thread has morphed into a philosophy of life class. Thanks for all the brilliant ideas.


----------



## Bearsmama

Maureen-Sitting with the feelings is something I've worked on. I actually *usually* do this okay, like when Bears is upset that his favorite shirt is in the wash. Or I have to take something sort of dangerous away from the little one and he freaks out and is so sad. But I think there's some expectation for me about "doing my best" (I'm having an epiphany here while I write this, ladies!). So, when I think on some level that I'm doing all I can, my "best", and the kids are still a mess, I find that I get angry. "Doing my best" was an ongoing theme of my childhood. My mother always said that all we could do was our BEST in whatever it was. But of course there was some not-mentioned level to this. I was never sure that my best was actually GOOD ENOUGH-like she was saying one thing, but meant that I better do WELL. Does this make any sense? How much do I owe you, Maureen?









Have you heard the term agape love? Well, my DH has this for me. Since the day we met. He loves me unconditionally and I've felt that every moment of my life with him. For me, too, Maureen, although of course I'd say that I love him unconditionally, I don't show it in the same way that he has shown it to me.

About expectations: I know that for certain people in my life when I've given up expecting anything from them it's been freeing to me. So, when they've given of themselves in some way to me, it's a surprise and pure and it doesn't hang on my expectation. I don't know how I'd be able to do this in the same way with my partner?? Like, our marriage is based on an expectation of trust, support, love, of course. Should we be giving this up? I don't know how that would work. Unless of course we're talking about giving up the expectation that our partners will be anything less or more than they are.

I think I'm rambling here...Gtg.

Oh, Maureen, one more thing. About learning through struggle. I absolutely agree with this. And I think it's one of the most intimate things to be able to sit with someone who's going through pain. I don't always been *physically* sitting with them, but going through it with them. Just going through it. You know that old saying, "The only way OUT is THROUGH"? Well, I can imagine that doing the work that you do must really be amazing. Being able to really BE with someone who's struggling. That's HUGE. Btw, my DH's family makes me nuts b/c they see no benefit in pain. YKWIM? Their lives are attempts at avoiding pain, discomfort and struggle at ALL COSTS. This is so foreign to me that it's actually sometimes painful for me to be around them. MIL is really quite a glaring example of someone who does not want to feel any pain EVER. A little


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
So if expectations grow resentments... and I can certainly see that... then how does one actually marry with no expectations? Is that possible? And isn't lowering your expectations for your marriage (especially for women) kind of selling out?

I think it may have to do with the type of expectations you have. And certainly there's a difference between letting go of some expectations and lowering your expectations overall. For my dh and I, there were some very important key things we both needed in marriage-to be treated respectfully always, to know we are honest and faithful with each other and to know we can rely on each other in times of need (that there is trust), to enjoy each other's company and spend time connecting with each other, to know that we communicate well, and to know that we are both giving 100% overall to the marriage (there are times, of course, when each of us has a turn giving a little more probably but we don't keep score). These are our biggies, our needs (oh, plus we need to be safe-so no substance problems or violence). We don't let go of the biggies. Each person has their biggies, and I think it's important to know that and make sure they're there before you get into marriage. If you don't know they're missing because you didn't communicate about it well enough, or if you know they're missing but disregard that, deny it, then you have problems. Sometimes your biggie expectations are met in the beginning but not later, then you have a problem.

I think that kind of expectation is different from expecting a partner to make huge changes or expectations regarding more "trivial" things. My dh has always been very uncomfortable with crying, for example. This is something I didn't really realize when we were dating because there was no crying that I can remember. But once we married and I struggled with depresssion and then we had kids (who, of course, cry), this became problematic for me. I had expected that he'd do the warm, fuzzy hug and comfort thing, which isn't really his style. He's a fixer (as many men are, I think) and he gets a little panicky and frustrated when he can't fix the crying. So when I realized that my expectation did not match reality, I had to let it go and just work with reality "as is." That meant communicating about what I need ("I just need a hug right now), accepting his type of help as well and recognizing it for the love it was (rather than trying to change him), and working to make sure that between the two of us the kids' needs are met when they cry. Likewise, he knew I was a slob while he is a neat-freak. I think he expected to live in an always very neat home, but that just ain't happenin'. He could get all upset and we could have major arguments, but instead he decided to let it go and cut a deal-he'll keep the place clean if I do all the laundry (I mean, within reason-I can't just let the place go completely to heck while I'm home all day, that wouldn't be fair). These types of expectations are not deal-breakers unless we allow the expectations to take on a life of their own and breed resentment and hostility. These are the expectations we can let go of.

Biggies and smallies, deal-breakers and things you can work with even if they aren't what you had in mind. I have no idea if I succeeded in saying what I was trying to say. I always think I'm not the best person to talk about marriage. Dh and I are very happy, no problems, no complaints (other than minor ones like the way I leave closet doors open), love to spend time together, and we have each other's back always. We are on the same page, always (though maybe not quite the same paragraph at times). We feel like freaks, but we are blissfully happy freaks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Unless of course we're talking about giving up the expectation that our partners will be anything less or more than they are.

YES, YES, YES!!!! That's it!
Just as important as letting go of the expectation that our children will be anything less or more than they are.


----------



## Bearsmama

sledg-I just had to laugh while I was reading your great post. It makes DH crazy b/c I leave closets open and drawers, too.


----------



## Magella

Oh yeah, drawers! I do that, and cabinets too. I tend to give drawers and cabinets a shove so that they're mostly closed, but not completely. Drives him batty! He's even got my oldest dd riding me about that because she's heard him complain so much-"mommy! you should close the cabinet!" or "mommy, you left it open again, you know you should close it!". It's really funny.








It's a good thing his motto is more or less "don't take life too seriously, it's not permanent."


----------



## MsMoMpls

Is it actually possible for something to be off topic on this thread? What actually is the topic of this thread? Boy- it has grown. I think it is because being a parent, especially of a challenging child, is about being human and being human is very complicated.

Thanks for the support about marriage and expectations. I think it helped me think some things through. Honestly, here I am a marriage therapist, and actually of all the things I do professionally, this is the most rewarding, most challenging and seems to be that I am unusually good at- but I have only been married for 5 years. Divorced once- started marriage...long story. And since we have been pregnant or nursing through our whole marriage I don't have a lot of confidence that we have a wonderful marriage. I mean, I am happy- more than I have ever been. But I really wonder about the long term health of our marriage, my own long term ability to face the challenges. Especially as I see so many people give up so easily.

So all my pondering about marriage is mostly about me and then about how to take my own struggles forward into good therapy. And helping people and myself with being wonderful parents is all woven into this.

Thanks all. (Bearsmomma- we are so even! Believe me I get as much as I give.)

Maureen


----------



## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
So your kid doesn't sleep either? It's like mine know when we have "plans"...it's some kind of pheromone-sensing sibling-prevention alert system. (Uh, not that we're planning on more siblings...don't want to leave that impression.)

Sleep? What is this sleep thing you speak of?









The hardest expectations I wrestle with are of dd and sleep.
Dd is a great sleeper...once she falls asleep. But she cannot go to sleep a minute before her body tells her she's tired. I have seen the child in the middle of playing a very involved made up game, suddenly stop in mid-sentence, walk to me and say "Mommy, I tired. I want Mama nummies." Then she will nurse for 30 seconds and fall asleep. Lately, she hasn't even been nursing, just cuddling and closing her eyes and conking out.

I have no problem with having dd fall asleep when she's tired. It just seems that her bedtime tends to creep later and later each night. Her circadian rythym (sp?) is on a 25 hour-schedule not 24. I have had good luck with waking her more or less the same time everyday. But it also helps if I have something planned for us to do: like a playdate to go to or storytime at the library. But there have been quite a few times when she has clearly said "No I want to stay home and sleep."









Tangent story....sorry back on track. I have posted about this situation before, in other places, if anyone wants to discuss more or ask me questions about it, just pm me...'kay?

But yeah, it's usually worse when dh and I have time planned because she just seems to want to be awake, awake, awake.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
And yeah, this thread has evolved into a fantastic discussion of self-awareness. Who would've thought?









Wonderful, isn't it?


----------



## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Ladies, I have so much more to say, and I don't feel that I am ever eloquent or articulate enough to really say what I feel. I always leave this thread thinking that I have a novel to write on what all you great mamas have already posted. More when I can...Love and thanks to you all.









Bearsmama, You are plenty eloquent and articulate. Beside have you forgotten that this thread is not about being perfect?








It was your simple outpouring of HONEST emotion that drew me to the thread.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
My mother always said that all we could do was our BEST in whatever it was. But of course there was some not-mentioned level to this. I was never sure that my best was actually GOOD ENOUGH-like she was saying one thing, but meant that I better do WELL. Does this make any sense?

I know you addressed this to Maureen and not to me, but I wanted to chime in if I could.
I know what you mean. I had that feeling in my childhood too. It was more lip service for my parents to say "do as best as you can" but there was a tone that came through loud and clear that they expected "ONLY the best". And sometimes even though I did do my best, it wasn't good enough either.
I always had the feeling that I was falling short. The focus was always on the things that I could do better or fix, not on the things that I had already done well.

Maureen, regarding expectations in a marriage or in a family, etc. :

I think certain expectations are fine. For instance, like sledg and Bearsmama said about respect, and love and trust. If they are expectations that affect all of you, then there needs to be communication about them.
Otherwise, I think it is simply very helpful to realize and be aware that you are having certain expectations. Sometimes we need to let go of them, but sometimes there are principles that we need to stand ground on.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Sometimes I just try and sit with my 3 year olds' hurt without fixing it or minimizing it... just feeling how hurt he really is. (You know, the horrible hurt of being out of popcicles!)

Maureen, I thought of you last night when my little boy was crying sorrowfully and was inconsolable when he couldn't have a second helping of corn for dinner because it was all gone. I tried to just sit with him while he hurt, but it turned into an ugly scene because it was dinnertime and dh has a really hard time just sitting with someone while they cry and hurt. To dh it's just corn, to ds it was a big deal (and probably a symptom of some underlying hurt, judging by some of his other behaviors these days). Then dh feels like the bad guy, and he needs someone to "sit" with him while he hurts too. Oh well. Dh took a time out of sorts, I held ds, then ds and dh had a hug and it was all better.


----------



## Justine

Still reading...........still inspired, grateful and moved by everyone's input to this thread. Everytime I read I have a warm glowing smile - just such a strong feeling of connection to what is being said here.

Would love to post some thoughts but don't have time - was just checking in quickly and now it's time to nurse DS to sleep.

Thanks to you all...........


----------



## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Maureen, I thought of you last night when my little boy was crying sorrowfully and was inconsolable when he couldn't have a second helping of corn for dinner because it was all gone. I tried to just sit with him while he hurt, but it turned into an ugly scene because it was dinnertime and dh has a really hard time just sitting with someone while they cry and hurt. To dh it's just corn, to ds it was a big deal (and probably a symptom of some underlying hurt, judging by some of his other behaviors these days). Then dh feels like the bad guy, and he needs someone to "sit" with him while he hurts too. Oh well. Dh took a time out of sorts, I held ds, then ds and dh had a hug and it was all better.


What do you bet that no one sat with him and let him have feelings? What do you bet that there are very few men that have been allowed that respect? What would the world be like if men were simply allowed to have their feelings?


----------



## TEAK's Mom

As always, you all hit just the right cords with me. This has been such a hard week and it has taken all of my strength to just be there with my girls as they have hard moments. My 15 month old has been, umm, following in her sister's footsteps lately. ABKA is proving that another easy babyhood does not yield an easy time thereafter.

But, I must have done something right. While ABKA is tantruming like crazy, TEAK has been sitting with her saying things like, "I know you would like to hold the lights, but they are too hot to touch. It's ok to be sad about it." That's a direct quote. Tears came to my eyes. Coming from TEAK, that is amazing.

More soon.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
What do you bet that no one sat with him and let him have feelings?

Oh, I'm quite sure of that. It's sad, really. So many men were raised this way. That's one thing I hope we can do for our son, just let him have his feelings and show his feelings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
But, I must have done something right. While ABKA is tantruming like crazy, TEAK has been sitting with her saying things like, "I know you would like to hold the lights, but they are too hot to touch. It's ok to be sad about it."

That's so wonderful!!!! How beautiful. What lucky kids to have you as their mom and to have each other. These moments make all the tough times bearable.


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-What a beautiful thing! I have had a few moments like this, where what comes out of Bear's mouth is something I've said and it's just great. Other times, well,







: Like the time DH was trying to get Bear's shoes on and Bear said, in perfect context, "These shoes are too f"*(&(*ing small." Yes. That would be one of my favorite curse words. Yikes.







:

Ladies, today was rough. And it was so weird how things worked. Bear has been a little snarky this week and extra sensitive. But nothing horrible. Not like a week from hell or anything. And he has been excited about school (he LOVES going to school-go figure). Well, his assistant teacher today asked how things were b/c Bear seemed a little "off" this week. Which is funny b/c I just kept thinking that b/c he's been so happy and excited about school that all must be well there this week. They know that we're currently exploring what his issues truly are. And the teach said we could talk further about it on Monday. Hmmmmm???







: So, from that moment all things went into the proverbial toilet. I don't know if it's that I was expecting weird behavior then, or that it really was off. But whatever the reason, everything just went downhill. We had a date with our playgroup, women and kids DS has known since he was a year old. He cried the entire time. The entire time. Couldn't really verbalize why. Just cried. I have to say, I often have some resentment (we've talked about this before here, I think) about stuff like this. Like, all the OTHER kids are happily doing stuff, WHY CAN'T BEARS? Of course, this is why we're trying to figure things out. But he can't just EVER happily join a group or play or whatever. It's just exhausting. EXHAUSTING. I feel more compassionate about it lately realizing finally that there is something legitamately awry here. Sorry, ladies, I know I'm rambling.

loon-









Justine-Glad you've found stuff here that's resonated with you. I am still amazed at the life this thread has!


----------



## loon13

*TEAKS*, that is beautiful!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
What do you bet that no one sat with him and let him have feelings? What do you bet that there are very few men that have been allowed that respect? What would the world be like if men were simply allowed to have their feelings?

Oh, man is that sooooo true of my dh.

It took him a *very* long time to be able to cry in front of me because his grandfather always told him that crying was weak and men didn't cry.







: Even when he cries now, you can see it's really difficult for him, as if someone's jerking the tears out of him against his will and he's struggling to pull them back in.








My MIL, too, (the grandfather was her dad), laughs or smiles when she cries. One time she hurt her foot and she was laughing so hard, she was in such pain. I know her well enough by now to know, it's I-have-to-laugh-so-I-don't-cry harsh souding laughter, but if you didn't know her, you'd really think she was just laughing it off.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Like the time DH was trying to get Bear's shoes on and Bear said, in perfect context, "These shoes are too f"*(&(*ing small." Yes. That would be one of my favorite curse words. Yikes.







:

*Bearsmama*, thanks for the









And is it wrong of me to







at the thought of such a sentence coming out of Bears' mouth? I'm sorry I know it's obviously something you don't want him doing right now, but it gave me a chuckle. Whenever I hear anything an adult would say coming out of a child's mouth, it really puts the whole comment in another perspective!

I'll give you all one back. One thing I try to do to acknowledge dd's feelings is to say "I hear you." Today, I was really frustrated because dd wanted me to play a game with her and I was having trouble understanding how she wanted me to play it. I told her so, and she looked at me and said with a sigh in her voice "I hear you, I hear you, but you made a 'stake [mistake]."









As for Bears not being like the other kids in the playgroup, yep, I so relate to you on that, too. I feel like I spend more time running interference and helping dd to calm down than actually enjoying the playdate. Some days just seem to be like that. But it's really hard to not be stressed both because of the hard time your dc had and trying to help him or her through it as best you can, but also because your mind then starts spiraling along the "why can't my child be like other kids?" slope.

*sledg,* isn't is amazing how something as simple as corn can throw off our poor children? I'm glad you were able to help your little guy.









*Justine*, glad to have you here. Post whenever you can. I just







too much sometimes.


----------



## Magella

OOOOOOOH!! I had reply and my computer ate it.








:








Bearsmama. I can relate to the playdate thing. BTDT. There's a moms group I wanted to attend but avoided for 3 years because of my dd's potential behaviors. I was too afraid of what would happen, of being under a microscope, of having people think I was a bad mom (this is an AP group, so I was double nervous, because of my history of yelling and just generally feeling like a lousy parent). I'm finally going now that dd is in school full time. I still won't bring her if it's a day she doesn't have school. It's hard enough just visiting family with her sometimes, though I do have to say that overall it has improved dramatically.

Oh, and my kids' have been known to swear too. A few days ago the oldest two were playing a game where they kept saying "what the *ell are you doing? where the *ell are you going? what the *ell is that?" while they laughed. Then there was the phase ds went through when he was 3 years old where every time something didn't go his way he said "[email protected]#n it!". At least they haven't said "[email protected]$*ing" yet.







: Apparently I have a potty mouth.

Okay, off to have a date with my little guy. He has told me he needs some special time with me, no siblings, so that's what we're doing today.


----------



## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas!









Sledg-Hope that date with your boy was fun.

Oh, and sledg, I know now why buddhist monks don't have kids. They wouldn't be able to speak so eloquently and clearly about anger and being calm and centered if they did!







Seriously, though, I've been reading a lot lately, and trying to remembe to breathe. And when I remember to breathe, I really can stay in the moment. And have that little, tiny space between reacting to something immediatly and taking a step back.

Although, that said, it has been a horrible week. Anyone else having a hard time this week? I had some kind of flu-y thing and had one entire day when I didn't think I would ever be able to move again. Luckily, DH was able to come home early that day and take over for a bit. It was getting a little 'Lord of the Flies-y' around here.

I freaked on Bears yesterday. Just freaked. I was trying to have a conversation on the phone (maybe 10 minutes) where I really needed him to be quiet and respectful (ha!). In fact, it was a dear friend calling with some helpful information about navigating through our local intermediate unit. Well, he deliberately peed on the floor. Stood there and said, "Mommmy, I'm peeing". This was all b/c I had to have 5-10 minutes on the phone. And I am rarely on the phone for this reason! I yelled and yelled and yelled. And he was scared and sad and crying. After about 15 minutes I was able to apologize, but that just set up the whole dinner hour to be sucky. SUCKY with capital letters.

Of course, after the kids were in bed last night I had my regularly-scheduled cry-fest with DH. Just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing about how
hard this is, about how I feel so alone in dealing with DS's issues, about feeling disconnected, about being worried, sad, consumed by Bears. So many tears my eyes were tell tale puffy this morning. I need my cry-fest, I really do.

Anyway, gtg. If anyone could have told me how HARD, how complex, how deeply emotionally challenging, this job was going to be, I'm not sure I would've signed up! There's just no way of ever knowing...

As always, thanks for listening.


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## Magella

Oh Bearsmama, a thousand hugs!









I'm sorry you're having a tough week. It's always harder when you're sick. I really, really think it's unfair that motherhood doesn't come with time off for being sick.







The phone thing is really upsetting. Why is it children desperately need every ounce of your attention the moment you have to make an important phone call? It must have been so incredibly frustrating. I hope you're getting somewhere in making arrangements for an evaluation.

Quote:

I know now why buddhist monks don't have kids. They wouldn't be able to speak so eloquently and clearly about anger and being calm and centered if they did!










My date with my son was a lot of fun! I love "special time." It's such a nice way to connect.

Gtg, little one is up from nap.


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## TEAK's Mom

Oh Bears, a million hugs. I have a ton to say and only a minute, so most will have to wait for the weekend. But I know where you are and how you feel.


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## MsMoMpls

Dear Bearsmomma and all other mommas who are not allowed to talk on the phone...

One of my favorite parenting books is "Mom, Jason's breathing on me" and he explains sibling rivalry by comparing it to how kids just know when you are on the phone and it triggers a sense of dependency and abandonment, a need to prove that you are theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't help me at all on the phone, but I always remember that lesson after I lose it.









My boys have had a rough week... ok, their momma has been a real %#&* and I feel sorry for them... it turned bitterly cold this week, went from 25 to zero almost instantaniously. I got grumpy, they immediatly got cabin fever and I suddenly decided that it was time to panic about the holidays.

Oh well, just when I was stressed beyond measure, I found out that I have almost no clients today so I have daycare and am FREE!!!! (Apologies to all the SAHMs that never get the wonderful break I do.) My mood just improved enormously. I got to go to Target and the yard store (ALONE) and exercised and now actually have an hour to knit and throw something in the crockpot before leaving for the office. Boy, sucks to be me.

So, I wish that I could give all stressed out mommas a few hours alone, I swear it cures just about everything that ails you.

Good luck all, it is going to be a long winter I fear.


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## Magella

I'm very happy for you Maureen! It's so good for us to have time to ourselves!


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## Bearsmama

Maureen, TEAKs, Sledg-Thanks, my friends.









Not much time, but Maureen, you are sooo right about getting some time to ourselves. It makes such a HUGE difference for me. I hope you enjoyed your remaining time alone! And I, too, fear it's going to be a loooooong winter.

Always so good to know I'm not alone. Which is the exact feeling I feel when things get really, really bad around here. Things were marginally better today, but I was still a grump, short-tempered, and yelled. Boy, that doesn't sound too good, does it?

More later...


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Ladies, what a dreadful morning. Dreadful. And basically, yesterday I felt that I was approaching one of those "Falling Down" moments (remember that Michael Douglas movie?)

Yesterday we were getting our tree inside, the kids were happily playing in the snow out front, but we had come off an awful day. I opened the trunk of the car and I hit my head. It wasn't horrible, but it hurt. And it was like one of those dam-breaking moments where I just cried. I burried my face in my gloves and cried. I don't have too many of these moments (although I have lots of yelling losing it and cry-fests at night with DH, but this wasn't the norm. It was just an "I quit" kinda cry. Have you had those? It wasn't even that the kids were being difficult at that moment, it was just the shear hardness, pain, everything building up and coming out.

This morning DS refused to get dressed for school. DH gave him 2-3 options. Plus, DS can always go to his own dresser and pull out what he wants (which is usually what he does). So, he sat naked on the couch. DH had to leave to go to work and left me with a naked, defiant kid. I tried the "You have your options" approach, the diverting attention approach, the hard-nose approach, and finally the threatening approach. I remained relatively calm through the whole thing until he said he wanted his blue shoes and I got them and then he said he wanted his boots. THEN, I LOST MY MIND AND YELLED virtually in his face. Ugly. Then, I proceeded to lecture him in the car. I told him that he was hurting the family and that I wouldn't allow it anymore. That if he didn't start realizing how his behavior was affecting everyone else in the family and how we needed to be a team, that I couldn't do this anymore. That he would need to go to daycare b/c obviously he doesn't want to work with me as a team.









And you know what? Of course, I feel tremendous guilt about this and what I said, but how could anyone deal with this behavior? HOW? I just don't know. I am at a loss, ladies. A LOSS. I hear friends say that little Johnnie had a tantrum, or said "NO" or whatever and that this was frustrating to them. COME TO MY HOUSE! I don't know how to balance our family out with Bear's sticking-out-like-a-sore-thumb behavior.

I have Bear's school file in front of me b/c I am going to look up the cost of supplemental care for a few days/week. I can't do this alone anymore ladies. There is no buffer EVER between us and BEARs. We have ILs that live pretty close, but they are not really that involved. I have a sitter/mom's helper that comes 1x/week for 2.5 hours. THIS IS NOT ENOUGH. I need to get away from him. I need physical and mental distance from him. And I don't know how to get it.

TEAKS-How are you? Didn't see you post this weekend.

Thanks for listening, ladies, as always. I just don't know where to put all this.


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, I have cried that exact cry. Sorry I wasn't able to get online this weekend. I have until Saturday to get us entirely ready for the holidays and to leave town. I'm also trying to figure out how I'm going to keep the kids happy on an overnight series of flights between Juneau and Florida. Can you tell that my MIL made the arrangements?

Anyway, you need more hugs than the internet can provide and a stiff drink. I definately think that you need more of a buffer than you are getting. Is he any better at school? Has anyone been able to give you something of a real diagnosis? I wish I had something brilliant and thoughtful to offer, but all I can say is that I've been in similar spots and any support I can offer is yours.

We are thankfully in a pretty good spot with TEAK right now. Other than the potty learning issues (insists on wearing underwear, but doesn't often want to use the potty), she is doing better. She is starting to show a little bit of compassion and is more mellow. The only thing I have changed is that I am obsessive about food. If one of her meals or snacks is late, she goes psycho. She has to have something in her system at all times.

Sorry this post sucks. I've been sneaking moments for two hours (and I type really fast). If I take time to revise, I'll never finish. Read what I mean, not what I say...


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## Magella

Ahhhh, Bearsmama. Another







I only have a few moments, all my kids are sick and whiny and clingy.

It sounds as though you are totally stressed, like you feel as though you are out of ideas and energy, and like you are feeling very discouraged. And it sounds like you have a lot of unmet needs, like you haven't been able to take care of you enough. I wish I could help you, come over and hold you while you cry and send you out to see a movie alone.

The only other thing I can add right now is that until my challenging child hit age 3, I didn't understand why some moms said they _need_ to work, to do something other than spend 24/7 with their kids. Around the time she turned 3 I understood completely. Sometimes it's healthier for everyone to spend a little less time together, at least for a little while. I understand your desire to have some more space from Bears' intensity. It's hard, very hard, to do this alone most of the day every day.


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## The Lucky One

I am glad for you that you have a supportive husband. He always sounds like such a wonderful guy.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-TEAKs, TLO-Thank you, dear mamas























Just a quickie here-I am seriously considering some additional care for Bears, but I just don't know how we'd swing it. I had the file on my lap earlier today, ready to call and have him in supplemental care a few days/week. I NEVER THOUGHT in a MILLION years that I'd think this. NEVER. I may just need to find some way to get some more breaks. Also, I think this need to get away from him, or have some space, is just coming to a head. I have little family and DH's family is close but generally uninvolved. I've done this on my own for 4 years with no breaks, really, and no other interested party, really, other than DH. It's rough. I'm not saying I'm the only one in this boat, but not having an extended family who really wants to be involved in any *REAL* way is very, very hard.

Okay, back to the kitchen.

And TLO-DH truly is wonderful.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
sledg-TEAKs, TLO-Thank you, dear mamas























Just a quickie here-I am seriously considering some additional care for Bears, but I just don't know how we'd swing it. I had the file on my lap earlier today, ready to call and have him in supplemental care a few days/week. I NEVER THOUGHT in a MILLION years that I'd think this. NEVER. I may just need to find some way to get some more breaks. Also, I think this need to get away from him, or have some space, is just coming to a head. I have little family and DH's family is close but generally uninvolved. I've done this on my own for 4 years with no breaks, really, and no other interested party, really, other than DH. It's rough. I'm not saying I'm the only one in this boat, but not having an extended family who really wants to be involved in any *REAL* way is very, very hard.

Okay, back to the kitchen.

And TLO-DH truly is wonderful.

Bearsmama -









I'll try to summarize... have had a really crappy week, myself. We're dog sitting for my brother and my little monkey man has been overly helpful. So this has been me --->







for a solid week. Everything seems to hit at once.

But yes, I too know that cry. And I function much better with Cole now that he's in Kindergarten although it was a somewhat rocky start and really hard for me to accept that him away from me more is not a bad thing. My IL's live in another state and my mom is in no shape to babysit so DH and I NEVER get away from the kids. Ever. I can so relate to needing more help. Of course for me, it's hard to find anyone willing to watch four kids. But, with one of them being Cole, well, it's easy to understand. That sounds awful but when the people closest to him have a hard time watching him, how can I trust people that didn't know him? Not that any are lining up, lol.

Ok, have to run but will read more tomorrow... couldn't check in and not say hello.


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## Bearsmama

Jennifer-







Thank you so much for your reply and support. I get so much support here it's unreal.

Just wanted to check in quickly. The day continued to get worse, like a train wreck. DH tried to remind me that it's just one day, it's not every day that I'm losing my mind. But it IS a LOT. Bears and I had a big talk last night in bed. He shared with me in a way that he doens't all the time.

Gtg.


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## TEAK's Mom

I know what you mean about doing it without backup, Bears, Jennifer. Both sets of grandparents care a great deal about the girls, but they are an airplane ride away (remember you can't drive here from anywhere). They do visit, but it takes several days for the girls to get used to them again and then they need to leave.

It is so hard to find a balance between attachment and separation. When our babies are born, we never let them out of our arms, we know that they need us and require the contact. As attachment parents, we (or at least I) have a harder time accepting that space becomes necessary as they grow older.

ack, gtg. I'll be back to finish.


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## Justine

Hi all,

This thread is telepathic I swear. DS has also been unwell and I too suffer badly from lack of support and doing this alone. Both sets of grandparents are not that close by and it's is me and me only 98% of the time. Being 30 weeks pregnant with a sick, demanding child can be SO hard.

Bears - Falling Down moments have been a plenty for me this week. I did actually cry very hard yesterday as DS had yet another tantrum and was pushing me away. It really was an 'I give up' cry. It SO un-nerving for me to think this is with ONE child - how will I cope with two??

Obviously DS is poorly at the moment so it's a vulnerable time for him but still - there's just no space. And DP is suffering too as he is working really hard, we are also having financial challenges and it seems that everything is against you some days doesn't it.

One of my Falling Down moments was going back to my car from the supermarket with DS and the car not starting and trying for about 15mins to get it to fire-up. (It's been dodgy for a while though so should have seen that coming!). I really had to grit my teeth to pick up all the bags and wait for the cab to come and get us. Of course with DS being spirited he NEVER keeps still in your arms and with a big pregnant belly it was just all TOO MUCH. Agh!!

To add to everything else, all DS wants to do right now is nurse and it's driving me mad, just from a being pregnant point of view. It's been alright on and off but with him being ill it has stepped up a gear and boy does it bug me at times!

Anyway, he's moany groaning again right now so had better sign off - just wanted to say that for all of you going through a hard time, you're not alone! Let's hope things improve for us all...............

Bye for Now
ps: promise to be more positive next thread ;-)


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## Magella

Sing with me.....

It's the moooost woonderrrfulll tiiiiime of the yeeeeear!.....NOT!










Let's see, for us there's the colds, the flu, the parties, the snow shoveling, more time stuck indoors, the shopping, the financial strain, the company, the husband working crazy hours. It's overstimulation and overexhaustion for eveyone!! Wooooohooooo!

Really, I do enjoy this time of year in general. But it's also hands down the toughest time of year for us and many families I know.

Big hugs to all you mamas dealing with sick children and stress (not much more stressful than a sick and grumpy challenging kiddo!).







I am in the trenches with you, I am sick as a dog myself, and we will all survive.


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## TEAK's Mom

I'm just stopping in to distribute hugs to all of you and to soak up the support. I'm about to need it with this "family trip" with dh's family to south Florida. MIL made our travel arrangements and we have to fly from Juneau to Seattle, wait 5 freakin' hours and then take the RED EYE to Miami. WITH TWO SMALL CHILDREN!!! She and FIL, by the way, fly in two easy stages and stay overnight with my parents on the way. I have packed everything I can think of to keep us happy, but I'm still fretting. Then, three weeks with my in-laws. Sigh. OK, rant over.

I'll check in tomorrow and then be offline for a few weeks.

sledge, I hope that the crud leaves your house never to return.

Justine, oh I remember those times when I was pregnant with ABKA and TEAK just wanted more and more and more. Big hugs and something soothing.

Anyway, believe it or not, I will miss all of you.

Happy Solstice,
Merry Christmas,
Happy Hannukah,
and a Joyous Kwanza to all!

k


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## Bearsmama

Hi TEAKS,
I will send you GOOD TRAVELIN' VIBES. You are a brave, brave, woman. Funny how the crazy travel plans were made by someone who doesn't have small children







Seriously, I'll be thinking of you. I'm stressed about the holidays, and I don't have to GO anywhere.

Not much time. Bed is calling. So nice to have developed this relationship with you, TEAKS. The support from all of us on this thread is just wonderful.


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## MsMoMpls

Dear on-line family- I wanted to post a positive update, share my good news. Some of you know that my oldest- Nate, who is now 21, was my challenge (Ok- I may have another one in training but we will see.) And believe me, Nate was horrible. And I was often a horrible mother in response.

Well, last week Nate asked about moving home for awhile. He went to his step-father's office and had a serious heart to heart and admitted that he needed some help getting his act together. He has been unemployed for about 5 months and felt he was falling into a serious depression. Now Nate and my dh had a serious blow out two years ago and Paul threw him out. He has been living with my aunt since then but he and Paul have worked very hard on their relationship. So- they made a plan and on Sunday my baby moved back home.

And I love it!! I don't honestly think I have enjoyed him this much since he was 3. He is charming and interesting and respectful and he is so wonderful with his little brothers. They just adore him. I knew he had matured and grown but I didn't know just how much fun he would be and just how much I have missed him.

Ok- I know that my telling you that in 15 years or so, things will be ok, isn't completely great news but I also know that some Mommas (Bears







) worry a great deal about how their kids will turn out. I know that my unending love for him was all I had, all that ever really mattered.

Happy holidays, hang in there, love for the long run.

Maureen


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## Magella

TEAK's, you _are_ one brave woman!!! Good traveling vibes to you, I hope your trip goes smoothly and that you have a good time visiting your inlaws. Happy Holidays!

Maureen, I'm so happy for you! What a great thing. And lucky little brothers, too!

Bearsmama, hope all is well for you.

Justine, I know how it is to be uncomfortable (physically) nursing while pregnant.







I hope your son is feeling better, and that you get some time to rest.

Most of us are starting to get better over here. My poor littlest one is miserable, and I hope she's better soon. We had to cancel her birthday party, we'll be celebrating with just the 5 of us. Which is kind of nice, and since she's only about to turn 2 she doesn't really care. I am still not done with my Christmas shopping, which is a first. Went out last night to do some shopping *~*~*by myself*~*~*.







Just a little shopping left. Also, of course, I have to excavate the mess to find my house so we can have company on Christmas. (Okay, so it's not quite that bad. But I'm way behind because of everyone being sick.)

Take care, mamas!


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## Bearsmama

Justine-I'm sorry I forgot to comment on this. Being pregnant and nursing is rough. I found that with my last pregnancy my level of tolerance for it went in waves due to my varying hormone levels. Have you tried singing a song and telling your DS that he can nurse until the end of it? We did this throughout my pregnancy with #2-when it would hurt me or just be downright uncomfortable and I was ultra-sensitive. We also would read a book and I would say we can nurse for the next three pages. My best to you.









sledg-So glad to know that you are all on the mend. We all have colds, nothing major, but the little one suffers b/c he can't blow his own nose, of course. So it's hard for him to get comfortable. I'm just hoping that it just stays a cold and nothing more. I have a few more things to buy for the holidays. Of course, I have the baking, house-preparing, cleaning to do, too, which makes the baking all the more difficult to fit in. It is, however, one of my joys in life, so I will make the time.

And last but not least Maureen-I'm sooooo happy for you that you are now seeing Nate in a different light and that he has really come through so much. You know, if you believe that all things happen for a reason, you might say that NOW is the time that you guys will really get to enjoy each other-while he's living with you. You're through all that other junk. Now you get to enjoy him as an adult.

Today I called our "shrink" day. DH and I had an appointment with DS's psychologist by ourselves. Which was reallly great. That's not to say we didn't learn some things about our parenting that weren't hard to swallow. But we're learning some techniques to deal with the "storms" of DS's behavior. The basis of which is restraint-physical restraint. Which contradicts every thing I've felt about parenting thus far. But I *know* intellectually that this is what needs to happen. DS needs to feel safe, and we need to reign him in. Which is something we're not so good at.

I also went to see my therapist-who I haven't seen in over two years, I think. We occasionally speak on the phone and we've kept a great relationship. Of course, this is tremendously helpful to me today. You know, I feel so conflicted (Maureen-your opinion?) about the all you need to to love 'em thing. I really have felt this. That Love will surmount most things and that just keeping on loving him is the most important thing I can do. That said, DS's psych and my therapist are both sort of saying the same thing (mostly the doc we see for Bears, though). That I need to start loving him in a different way. That love is NOT enough for a child like Bears. That structure, restraining, etc., is what he needs to flourish in life. Doc said that the difference he sees in the children who have these issues that turn out to be successful in life and those who are troubled usually comes down to the parent's vigilance. Keep in mind that I am speaking about a kid that we now are pretty sure has ADD/ADHD-a real, neuro-biological disorder. Not just "spiritedness". What do ya'll think about this?

Anyway, off to do my holiday prepping. Hugs and love to all of you.


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## MsMoMpls

Bearsmama- I will continue to say that loving them is the thing... but of course you can't just love without some reaction. As for restraining... I tried it and it made things worse. But I have tried it therapeutically with other kids and have it help. So... just be willing to give new tools a good try and figure out if they help and if they fit for who you are. Honestly, if I had it to do over, if I had done therapeutic holding with Nate at a much earlier stage and with no anger- it might have been different. There was no information about sensory issues when he was little. I would mainly say, be open, try things and if you hate it- don't do it.

I am so glad that you feel supported and heard. I remember realizing that it was neurological with Nate and knowing that it didn't mean that I was off the hook as a parent, but that any mistakes or shortcomings I had as a parent weren't the cause of Nate's issues. I was just a good enough parent and he needed specialist parent. And with enough time, I became that.

Good luck to all of you powerful mommas. Hope all is well for your holidays.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

As always Maureen, you've given me words tonight that really help me wrap my mind around what's going on with Bears. Thank you, thank you for your love (and I really feel it over the internet!), and support. And I know you've praised my honesty before, but really, YOU'VE been incredibly courageous and brave and HONEST about your struggles with Nate. To have the perspective you have now and to be able to objectively (sort of-of course if they weren't our kids it would make it a whole lot easier)see your parenting then and what you went through to get where you are--WELL, THAT's just HUGE.









All my best to you this holiday, Maureen. And all of the other mamas here. Your kids are lucky to have you.


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## delightful2boys

Bearsmama,
Hi. I'm a lurker and a babbler, have been for a few months. Well, I've been a babbler my whole life. I have 2 ds, one is 6 and a hsc/challenging child/former high needs baby. 2 yo ds is most likely not. I consider myself an attachment parent: extended (waaay extended) breastfeeding, cosleeping, thought I was gding but began to stray. With terrible results. I have been diligently reading every thread I can find and reading, reading, reading parenting books b/c I find it so draining to parent a hsc and so helpful to read. I'm finding lots of other things that help me (medication, therapy, supportive group of friends, MDC, etc). Also, I have worked with children for about 10 yrs in the mental health field and am not an expert,at all. just wanted to sort of introduce myself before I responded to your post.
FWIW, I disagree about the restraining advice. It doesn't seem to work, it doesn't seem loving, and it seems to make things worse. How will it make you feel to restrain him? Will it leave your relationship intact (thank you Alfie Kohn for that question)? Does your son respond positively to being touched when he is feeling out of control? My son responds worse when I touch him and that has been my experience in working w/ kids with a trauma history. Not saying your son has a trauma history, this is the population I work with. What is the goal for using retraints? It always seem more "controls" are suggested the more troubled the child is and it just escalates. Also, ADD/ADHD/ODD etc are not biological disorders. There is no blood test or lab test that can tell you that's what it is, the way you can see an infection in your white blood cell count. The criteria is very subjective. How often is "often?" You can look it up in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (fourth edition TR). Medications are being prescribed that require weekly blood draws and/or not approved for use in children (with their teeny tiny little livers).
I have read through the whole thread over a few days (phew!)and I may be stepping on toes and I certainly don't mean too. I am deeply appreciative of the MDC community.
If I had to pick one thing that was perhaps most helpful in dealing with my challenging child, it would be (again thank you Alfie) *talk less*

Maybe I should work on *write less*


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## Bearsmama

delightful-Thank you







And you should talk MORE here, not less!







But I agree that for me, I need to talk a LOT less. I actually need to do a lot of things with Bears LESS, not more, if that makes any sense. I find that I am (and so is DH) so caught up with Bears that we sometimes can't go on about our daily functions in a normal way. Some of this, of course, has to do with the high-maintenance nature of my child and the amount of attention he craves/needs/demands.

Okay, I digressed a bit there, huh? Anyway, I wanted to say that I am still unsure about the restrain thing. I've never heard of being used with kids other than very troubled or mentally ill kids/people, so this is very new to me. That's why I appreciate your perspective so much. And Maureen's. We are trying to find our way here and this is the ONE thing that the psych has recommended. THE ONLY THING, really. He thinks that this is the one technique that helps the child learn internal control. That he needs to be "neurologically trained". Which of course, sounds horrible. But I have to say that this guy comes highly recommended and really IS an advocate for kids. He did say, though, that our boy might be too smart for this stuff. Meaning, he is already catching on to what we WANT to come out of it, so he is sort of pretending that he's already there.

Trust me, restraint goes against every bone in my body. I am an attached mama, of course. But my therapist thinks that sometimes we need to learn to love our kids DIFFERENTLY. Like, if your teen is into drugs, you may need to become more authoritarian and rule-driven and diligent about structure than you feel comfortable with.

I am still scratching my head thinking there must be a better way. I will share more about how this makes me feel, but I gtg. In the middle of making dinner here.

Oh, and I have to do more research about this, but our doc has described ADD/ADHD as a neuro-biological disorder. You mention that ADD was not biological. Could you explain? Thanks.

More later, and thanks, Delightful, for your perspective. And for coming out of lurkdom!


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## delightful2boys

Sorry to keep you hanging. Thanks so much for the warm welcome. If I could figure out how to work the emoticons I'd send a hug right back to you.

I guess it's not accurate for me to say that ADD is not a neuro/bio disorder. I don't really know if it is or not. I've heard that but wonder why do they not use any evidence of that to make the diagnosis/treatment? I was very emotional resp to your post b/c of the rec for restr. It saddens/angers me to no end that s/he'd make a rec like that. Psyche may be parents, too and may have a dramatically differnt viewpoint than you do. I just know that I have never seen restraints improve a situation (at work) and it seems to make things worse for the child. Talk about feeling powerless, bigger people holding you against your will. How could it get any worse than that? I don't know about "rewiring" the brain but stress like that can certainly set in motion all those stress hormones. I guess I don't know what behavior s/he wants a rest to be used for......I guess that's why I shot off my mouth about it not being a neuro/bio disorder. I feel that is irrelevant. I have tried the "loving hug" w/ my hsc and WOW it does not work. he hates it and then I feel rebuffed/helpless,who know what else and well.... I don't do that anymore. What works for us is for me staying near , but not touching, and pretty much saying nothing. Surprisingly to me, I recover faster when I haven't been consoling and explaining....oops ranting and raving.
I am not trying to tell you what to do b/c I don't know all of your situation. I have limited experience with kids. Your situation sounded similar to mine. Honestly, some of your posts could've been written by me. I just feel your pain. Been there doing that. Jan Hunt at naturalchild.org has an article about the dangers of holding therapy. She can say it better than I, for sure.
I have no words of wisdom, just a visceral gut reaction to eeeewwwww restraints. Is that the best they can come up with for neurological/biological disorder?!
I see steam coming off of the keyboard and please believe me none of my anger is directed at you. I think psychiatry is still in the dark ages when it comes to kids, imho

I wish you and your family well. Take good emotional care of yourself.


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## delightful2boys

The goofy eyeballs rolling around emoticon is in the wrong place. How embarrassing! It was supposed to be near the ranting and raving part. Nothing like embarrassing yourself publicly and in perpetuity.

Slinking off now.....


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *delightful2boys*
I've heard that but wonder why do they not use any evidence of that to make the diagnosis/treatment?


Quote:

Is that the best they can come up with for neurological/biological disorder?!
I see steam coming off of the keyboard and please believe me none of my anger is directed at you. I think psychiatry is still in the dark ages when it comes to kids, imho

We certainly are in the dark ages with psychiatry- kids and adults alike. There are no medical tests for neurobiological disorders. There are brain scans which are not well researched yet, not paid for by insurance and considered "radical". Brain scans are "proving" that what we recognize as disorders such as ADD or bipolar disorder in fact look different on a brain scan. And there are many types of ADD and they respond differently to meds.

Just about all psychiatry has is meds. If you don't want to go heavy down the medication road- they just don't have much else to offer. We don't know how to rewire the brain. I do believe that holding can work sometimes for some kids. But I think there is a huge difference between holding done by a loving attachment figure and any touch by a treatment team. I do not think that you should do this work with kids unless you are fully dedicated to their whole life. Holding to me is not so different than wearing our infants- same theory.

In my humble opinion and believe me it is humble as I know how little I can do for kids whose brains are different- the best and only solutions are love and time. I do believe that if you can keep the love and respect in place while they mature and do as little damage as possible- it will get much better with time. Once they are able to be fully reasoned with, they can start taking their own treatment to heart.

Nate knows that he has problems with getting obsessed with things, he knows that he doesn't manage time well, that he gets depressed easily, that he is unfocused, that he has anger issues, that he learns differently, that he gets defensive... those are all part of his neurological style. One thing that makes Nate's neurological disorder easier to accept is that he has Tourettes- his ticks are like really easy proof that his brain misfires. But his ticks are no big deal, they are kind of like pimples- they come and they go, they move around and are sometimes embarrassing but they don't limit his life. But they are somehow redeeming in that they make us feel better about knowing that he and I are facing something "real"- and something bigger than parenting and behavior.

Delightful2boys- Welcome to the tread. The only thing I would add is that this thread is mostly about being the kind of mom we need to be when our kids need Supermoms and we are only human.


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## Bearsmama

delightful-Thank you again, for your replies and opinion. Two things I need right now as we try to navigate the waters with Bears.

Maureen-We are struggling right now with the advice the psych has given us. The only thing-the only TREATMENT that the psych has recommended is the restraint. We've done it a few times (DH has, actually, Bears is too strong for me). DH has felt terrible about it. Of course, he's not doing it in an aggressive way, but it *feels* wrong to him. So, we're still searching. Maureen-If we disagree with the only treatment that our psych is recommending, I guess we have to look for someone else? We are at a loss and we're just trying to be as gentle, respectful, loving as possible to Bears-right now and always, of course. I am trying to "minimize the damage" done with any frustration/anger on my part. I have lots to say today and not much time. I am trying to transform myself and my anger. I am hoping that just taking a little break from finding the "answer" will servve us well over the holidays. Whew. If parenting weren't hard enough, now I've got to be a specialist!









More when I can, ladies.


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## Magella

Bearsmama,







again. I think I can understand both your reluctance to restrain Bears and your desire to trust the psychiatrist and give it a try. I will only say that I don't think it's going to permanently scar Bears if you try it. Either it will help and you'll all be grateful, or it won't and you'll stop (or maybe it won't be clear whether it's helping or not)-and either way it isn't anywhere near the most horrible or traumatic thing your child could experience. I tried this with my challenging child when she was younger-with great inconsistency and with intense emotions-and it didn't seem to help (because, probably, of that inconsistency and the intense emotions). A few days ago she had a rare tantrum that involved hitting me, and for the first time in a very long time (and out of desperation and frustration) I did hold her on my lap against her will-and when I let her go after I began to think it wasn't helping and maybe I shouldn't do it, she climbed right back onto my lap and wrapped my arms around herself as if looking for that feeling of security and control that she couldn't find within herself. Will I do it again? I don't know. I think that it makes sense that sometimes some kids need that physical control from outside themselves, I think it's possible that for some kids this really is helpful. I think if your goal is to help your child feel safe and secure, and you're doing it with love and respect for your child and you're listening and watching and willing to stop if it seems that it isn't helping or it's making things worse, then it's not such a bad thing to try. Unless it just feels that wrong or bad to you and your dh-if it just feels that wrong then I would recommend going with your gut feelings. And if it feels that wrong to you Bears probably can sense that, and if he can sense that maybe it won't really help him feel secure.

Maybe there are some other means of "neurologically training" Bears to try instead of or in addition to restraint. Seems like a lot of the stuff OT's do for sensory integration is a kind of neurological training. Some things that seem to have helped my daughter are jumping on a trampoline, sitting under a weighted blanket, brushing her skin with a little soft nailbrush, massage, relaxation excercises and yoga, lots and lots of physical contact (hugs especially).







She just does better overall when we do these things regularly-more calm, happier, less yelling/crying/hitting/maddening behavior.


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## Justine

Hi all,

Just wanted to say a very Merry Christmas and New Year to you all. You all continue to inspire me with your stories, your strength, enormous love for your kids and such courageous in getting through the hard days with challenging children.

Hope everyone gets some kind of break - I'm hoping to. Off to London to stay with in-laws. DS is just so used to me doing everything for him that I am sure I will continue to do most of the duties - I just can't seem to let go of that and if I hear him crying I always think it's only me that knows what he wants and can resolve it. One day I might grow out of it ;-)

Love to you all....

Justine


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## Bearsmama

Justine-Thank you







I feel the same way about the mamas here. Have a safe, fun trip to London!


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## Bearsmama

Okay, ladies. It's Christmas Eve. Aren't there supposed to be carolers at my door, candles burning, and smiles on everyone's faces? Just kidding, of course.

I really don't think I have too many expectations. I really don't. But I am working on getting rid of any of the ones I have. Anything about holidays being a certain way, or any day being a certain way. But I am at a loss. I am reading about anger. I am reading Hahn's book on mindful breathing and meditation and making friends with my anger. I have been doing okay, really I have. I've been trying to breathe through EVERYTHING.

This morning, Bears woke up with an earache. Bad enough that he was cocking his head to one side. I knew my ped was there today taking sick appointments b/c I was there yesterday having a consult about Bear's behavior. Well, we made the appointment. The morning was fairly uneventful, and Bears was playing hard with the kids next door while our neighbor and DH worked on a house project in our home together. Bears got messy while playing and his jeans needed to be washed. They would not be ready in time for the doc appointment. We gave him another option of corduroys, but he kept saying he wanted his jeans. We kept saying, I know you want to wear them, but this is what you need to wear now. (Clothing and getting dressed is one of his "issues"). Needless to say, this turned into DH getting angry and then us having a pow-wow about what our doc says to do. Give the option, walk away, expect it to be done, and if it's not, there's a consequence. I told him he needed to get dressed in two minutes or his toys would be taken away. I know it sounds harsh, but a threat is the only way to work this with Bears. This didn't work. Still sitting in his underwear in the hall. I can't physcially put his clothes on for him. He's too strong and resistant. I pull out the Santa card. Which is odd, b/c we don't even stress Santa in our house. He said that if Santa brought this certain thing he wanted he would smash it.

Why am I rambling? Why? I'm sorry. I just need to share this. Things aren't like this in everybody else's homes. On some level, I think *most* mothers of regular kids can have a certain expectation of their day.

The incident ended with me grabbing Bears and literally handing him to DH in his underwear to take to the doc. I told him that he "Was not the only member of this family". And it's true. There are other people here, me included, that would like some freaking attention, and maybe a minute of calm, or peace. I can breath all I want, but when he is downright refusing to do something he HAS to do, what am I to do?

All I can say is that I know I am blessed to have two beautiful, healthy kids. Really, I know that. But I'm still not sure what path we're on here. Our little family just feels that so often we're floundering.

My best to all of you this holiday. And, btw, thanks for listening.


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## Magella

Okay, I have been there needing to get my child somewhere and she won't get dressed because she doesn't have the right underwear or pants (or both). It's really hard. I have taken her into the car undressed and put the clothes on when we get in the car or arrive wherever we're going. It's really frustrating to expect you'll get out the door and to school or the doc or wherever only to have it all fall apart. Literally, the best solution I found was to start the dressing process about an hour before we had to leave and to just keep repeating "I'm waiting, I'm waiting" (well, intermittently while going about our business) and then go undressed if she still didn't dress and we absolutely needed to go. Other times, we just wouldn't go (if it was realistic to put it off, I did because I didn't want the misery). She did grow out of it mostly (the getting dressed issues), age 4 was the worst. Knock on wood. We still start getting dressed early-as long before leaving as possible, dd still gets dressed upon waking-an hour before leaving for school. I aim to be ready to leave at least 10 minutes before I have to leave because I just never know for sure how easy it's going to be. It's become a defense mechanism.







And I still make for darn sure I've got at least 1 pair of soft pants and one pair of the right underwear and socks clean for her each day. Oh, and I have learned to step back and just not let a lot of things get to me. That has come with an awful lot of practice, and constant reminders that I can choose to a large extent how much I let something affect me and in what way. I am grateful for the opportunities for growth my child has given to me.

My dd will also say she doesn't want whatever carrot we dangle in front of her or whatever good thing we remind her of. She can't be bribed, apparently









Seriously, I'm sorry you're having a tough Christmas Eve. I'm sorry Bears has an ear infection. I hope your day gets better. I really do. Happy Holidays, big hugs, and know that some of us can relate and think of you often. Someday this will have passed and life will be easier.

ETA that I'm online checking NORAD's website that tracks Santa. It's fun! The kids love it. noradsanta.org if you haven't already seen it.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-Thank you, thank you, my friend























Just knowing that you've been where I am in HUGE for me. Of course, I know by this thread and the wonderful mamas here that there are many of us with these unique (is that a euphimism for impossible?), challening children?

We are on to the rest of our day. We do a gingerbread house together, make a big, nice dinner. Life goes on, of course. It is just so hard to not let it affect me and the rest of our day.

I will be going out this week to purchase EVEN MORE of the same sox, unders, and pants for Bears so we are always armed and ready for battle. So to speak. I think I need a housekeeper to keep up with the laundry, though. Making sure he has everything he needs to feel OKAY is a huge task.

My best to you, and I'll be on line checking out Santa momentarily.


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## Breathe

Bearsmama, Just had to pop in [as I hide from the MOUNTAIN of chores that need to be completed before tomorrow!] and tell you that probably every parent in America realized today where the term "you better watch out . . . you better be good, I'm tellin' you why" today. It's a national epidemic of craziness surrounding this holiday and you are SO not alone. (and the insanity won't end for us after tomorrow, either, but the anticipation of STUFF seems to make it all so much worse!)

Hang in there!
Breathe


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## Bearsmama

Breathe-Thank you







You know, I wouldn't day that I'm a complainer by nature (although it seems like it from some of my posts on this thread), but I *do* know that I tend to be a pessimist. And I fall easily into "F-it" mode. Like, everything's ruined, the day's gonna suck, etc. Not always, but often. I have to dig myself out of this trench. I think you're right-the holidays and the anticipation of them makes everyone-including adults-nutty.

Anyway, the kids, DH, and I, just did our gingerbread house. Which is currently falling apart. But that's okay, we had fun making it. And we can patch it up with some frosting glue. Maybe this is a moral lesson for me today????


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Bears got messy while playing and his jeans needed to be washed. They would not be ready in time for the doc appointment. We gave him another option of corduroys, but he kept saying he wanted his jeans. We kept saying, I know you want to wear them, but this is what you need to wear now. (Clothing and getting dressed is one of his "issues").

I'm sorry to hear Bears had an earache. No fun for mama or child!

DD has clothing issues too. I totally understand the impatience thing. I get so impatient sometimes. Forcibly dressing her would work when she was little, but not now.

I plan as much extra time as I can, and always give advance notice of dressing/changing. It's the transition thing for my dd.

There have been a few times where something she wanted to wear has gotten dirty and we had to change it.
DD dislikes having her clothes dirty and usually tells ME she has to change it. But there are many, many times where she wants to wear something specific and waiting to be washed and she just wants THAT ITEM.
I explain to her that it's dirty and of course she will say "No, it's not dirty." or even "I LIKE it dirty." Child logic, huh?









Anyway, I will usually show her the clothes item in the hamper. She understands the dirty clothes are in there. If there is a specific dirty spot, she understands that. Sometimes that will help her say "okay", sometimes she still insists
We usually go to her room and I try to have her pick out what she would like to wear. Sometimes her having the power to pick out something new helps too.
BTW, if I don't want her to wear it, I try not to keep it in the drawer. B/c if it's in there, it's fair game!

I have also sometimes put her in the car naked/undressed and dressed her when we got there. Sometimes she needed that time to make the transition.
I can't remember the last time we have done that though. It HAS gotten easier in retrospect. (She's 3.5 now).

So bascially what I do is explain and give her choices.

Dd usually likes to be naked, so our "rule" is that in the house is fine. But outside or when company is over = clothes. The company part was hard for her to understand for awhile because she (rightly) would think "But we're inside, in our own home." But it's gotten better.
Now when I tell her we need to go outside, she says "But I need to get dressed."







She's even worn clothes for stretches of time in the house before she then declares "I want to be butt naked!"

Hope the rambling has helped give ideas. Or, if there's something here you've already tried/done and it's not working for you, I hope it at least the commiseration helped.


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## MsMoMpls

Merry Christmas Mommas.

I just wanted to ask for some prayers... some support, an ear and you guys are the people that will understand this one best.

I have been mentoring this momma that I met here on MDC for about two years. She has had a rough childhood and no real family around and wanted me to help her be the kind of momma to her high needs now three year old that she was devoted to being.

So I got an e-mail from her husband yestday morning that their three month old daughter died of SIDS on Wednesday. She nursed to sleep in the sling and never woke up.

I am just so devestated for this momma and don't have anything I can do for her. No one should have to go through this. To lose a child, so young, in your arms, on Christmas week... she has so little support and is so wounded by her own childhood. I just want to hold her.

I don't think my family gets how much I can be connected to someone I have never met, never spoken to... but you all know. I sent her new baby gift, including some very precious handme downs from my own infants. We just shared so much over the past two years.

So... don't mean to bring people down, just needed somewhere to share my pain and knew that you wonderful mommas would be able to get what this feels like for me. And on this special day I also want to say that I do honestly care very deeply for you all. We are all in this together in a world community of mothers working to be our best.

Merry Christmas and thank you for your support.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Love&thoughts&prayers for you and your friend tonight.


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## Jewish Mom

whoa.... that's a tough one! G-d must think that woman is one strong lady!! ...her family too. (since we know, as hard as it is to appreciate at a tough moment, that g-d only puts us tgrough something we can deal w/ ie, our 'level'....


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## loon13

Our sympathies and thoughts are with your friend, Maureen.


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## Magella

Maureen,
















Thoughts and prayers for your friend, her family, and you Maureen.


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## boomingranny

how utterly, totally awful. So so sad. My prayers and thoughts are with all those involved.

Blessings


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## MsMoMpls

Thanks all for the support. It was just so weird to be so hurt and feel so powerless to do anything and have no one in my real life even know this woman I am so connected to. As usual, I got just what I needed here. Thanks. Sorry for sharing such painful news. Kiss your babes.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I was thinking about checking in every night for the past few, and I haven't. But I've been thinking of all of you.

Things have been really sucky, actually. I am really, really, really trying to breathe, detach a bit, etc. And it IS helping. Putting things into action *does* actually help!







Seriously, though, (and sledg will know this) I just read this great quote from a monk about how people want to change, to heal themselves, but we don't really want it to be hard. Of course, I'm paraphrashing, but I think that this is fundamentally true. Even if we're in a lot of pain b/c of our situation or actions or whatever. I've foudn that realizing that I have some power, and that I DO, in fact, have options before I act on my anger, rage, outbursts, really helps.

All that said, despite the craziness right now with Bears, realizing all this, and working really, really hard at it, does diminish the ugly times a bit. That said, of course, there is stuff, behavior that just blindsides me.

For instance, DS has a hemorroid (I know, I know, TMI). He's been having some trouble pooping. For some reason, he associates the pain with being on the potty. So he's taken it upon himself to poop ON THE FLOOR NEXT to the toilet. This has happened 3-4 times in the past 3 days. Today we had this big, long talk abotu how if it takes a while to poop, or if it hurts, mommmy will sit right there with him, read him a story, hold his hand, etc. But we must always go on the potty.So, today at lunchtime, he says he has to go like 3 times. Not only do we only have one bathroom in this old house, but DS needs to get completely naked to poop. Needless to say, each time he has to go it's a production. On the 4th time we go upstairs. I give him the talk again about how I can help him, that he needs to use the actual potty. He nods, seems to listen. Then, he asks for some privacy. I am in the middle of closing the door and I see him squatting on the floor NEXT to the toilet. You would all be proud. I handled this by breathing, really conciously. Not saying much (which is really, really hard for me). Cleaned up a big pile of poop while holding off an interested 16 mos old. I told him that every action has a consequence and that I really thought he was listening to me. And that I was just confused. I also said that some of his toys would be taken away b/c he he deliberately disregarded my wishes, and our conversation. I don't know if this was right or wrong. Who knows anymore? I feel that I am just surviving here.

We seemed to be able to turn the day around after this. I remained calm. Ignored most poor behavior, tried to focus on the good stuff. After dinner, while I'm cleaning up, DH calls to say he'd be a little late. The phone conversation was literally less than a minute long. As I'm speaking to DH, Bears says, "Mommy, I'm peeing in my pants and on the floor". Okay, this threw me over the edge. He TOLD ME HE DID THIS B/C I picked up the phone.

Okay, I don't know what all these behaviors mean. And I am currently trying to schedule an appointment with a new, very busy, psychologist. But I am just at a loss more days than not. AT A LOSS.

I guess one of the things I keep coming back to is that I thin we've given poor behavior so much attention in the past in our house. And I think that's where some of this craziness comes from. Bears is literally trying every way he can to get my attention. And to him, the bad is just as good as the good, if ya'll can follow that. I don't know how to undo this. I don't know how this child of mine, the one I slept with since birth, the one who slept on top of me-literally-until he was about 18 mo, the one I nursed until 2.5 ( I know that's not forever, ladies, but it's longer than a month), the one who gets loads of bedtime stories, kisses, hugs, etc., somehow feels that he doesn't get enough. I'm just at a loss.

Anyway, I have the tuition lists and supplemental care lists from Bear's preschool. I know that part of the answer right now is being apart from him. Sounds horrible, right? But it's the truth. The problem is, we can't afford it. He currently goes 5 mornings/week. And I would be interested in having two days/week that he goes in the afternoons. But we just can't swing it.

I can't even express the degree of hardness going on here. I CAN'T EVEN explain it. I'm sure some of you know. I went back and looked at some old journals of mine from when Bears was a little guy, and I was saying thesame things then. Clearly, he has many issues that don't involve my parenting. I know that. But since I am the one here all day, every day, my parenting is what I am obsessed with.

I have much more to say. Part of which is that I have a perfectly "normal", well-adjusted, happy, confident, funny, low-key 16 mos old who I've NEVER had these issues about. I just mother him, that's it. I dont' question it, don't obsess over it. Bears just monopolizes everything in our worlds. And we try deperately to go on about our business, our lives, our parenting of our other son, our marriage. But DH described it the other night like this







t's as if someone has a bull-horn in your ear most minutes of the day and you have to try to act like you don't hear it.

Anyway, just my Wednesday night ramble, ladies. I really don't know if I'll make it through this. I really don't know. I really have so much joy in my heart. So much. So many interests, so many loves, a lot of passions, really. And this one little human can make it all seem inconsequential.

Thanks for listening, as always.


----------



## Bearsmama

Okay, I can't even EXPLAIN how the negative pregnancy test smilie thinger ended up in my post. And I couldn't even edit it out. What does that mean!? At least it wasn't a positive!


----------



## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I don't know if this was right or wrong. Who knows anymore? I feel that I am just surviving here.

We seemed to be able to turn the day around after this. I remained calm. Ignored most poor behavior, tried to focus on the good stuff.

I think right or wrong is nothing compared to being respectful and calm and in control of your approach. I like it.

Quote:


I guess one of the things I keep coming back to is that I thin we've given poor behavior so much attention in the past in our house. And I think that's where some of this craziness comes from. Bears is literally trying every way he can to get my attention. And to him, the bad is just as good as the good, if ya'll can follow that. I don't know how to undo this. I don't know how this child of mine, the one I slept with since birth, the one who slept on top of me-literally-until he was about 18 mo, the one I nursed until 2.5 ( I know that's not forever, ladies, but it's longer than a month), the one who gets loads of bedtime stories, kisses, hugs, etc., somehow feels that he doesn't get enough. I'm just at a loss.
I don't think it is at all about attention. That puts you in the wrong and makes it impossible for you to impact effectively. I think it is about being in control. I don't know why some kids show up on this planet with a huge issue for control but they do. Their feelings are intense and they manage them poorly. I think peeing on the phone was about controlling you. He feels powerful. I used to say that Nate's favorite past time was pushing people's buttons. It was how he had power, how he impacted the world. Now he can't tell me why he needed to have that much power, but he does see that there are other ways to be powerful and that his choice to have negative power, only hurts him.

I think that you're getting closer. He gets to choose where to poop- but some choices are "messier" than others. Peeing in his pants might get your attention, or it might not. Mainly it just gets him different pants. Maybe you can get him to see how powerful he can be when he is kind and patient and wonderful. But at least he isn't having as much power over your mood. He needs to know that no matter what he does, you are just you. You just keep hanging in there.

I am wishing 2006 a year of great growth for you and Bears.


----------



## Bearsmama

Thanks, as always, Maureen.







I really do feel that I am on some kind of path-a spiritural one, perhaps. And that can only help Bears, and my family, too. So, I'm hoping as you wished for us, that 2006 is a year of great growth and change.

I think I'm grieving right now. Not to be all dramatic or anything. But my son is not "normal". I'm finally accepting it, I think. It's hard to really, really acknowledge this fact. He has issues. And they don't all stem from our missteps in parenting him. In fact, they are his issues. And yes, we have exacerbated some of them. I see that. And that is a hard thing to swallow. But he has problems. ADD/ADHD, Aspergers, Bi-Polar, we've-and a psych-have thrown a few of these out there already (the bi-polar is mostly our own idea). I'm just hoping we find the right person to help us help him, and ourselves, while we try to still hold him close.

I can't say enough about what I've gotten from this thread. Who would have thunk it that a few little words-exposing my quiet desperation-would give me so much support and friendship?

Maureen-I hope you're hanging in there, too.


----------



## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Hi Mamas,
I was thinking about checking in every night for the past few, and I haven't. But I've been thinking of all of you.

Things have been really sucky, actually. I am really, really, really trying to breathe, detach a bit, etc. And it IS helping. Putting things into action *does* actually help!







Seriously, though, (and sledg will know this) I just read this great quote from a monk about how people want to change, to heal themselves, but we don't really want it to be hard. Of course, I'm paraphrashing, but I think that this is fundamentally true. Even if we're in a lot of pain b/c of our situation or actions or whatever. I've foudn that realizing that I have some power, and that I DO, in fact, have options before I act on my anger, rage, outbursts, really helps.

All that said, despite the craziness right now with Bears, realizing all this, and working really, really hard at it, does diminish the ugly times a bit. That said, of course, there is stuff, behavior that just blindsides me.

For instance, DS has a hemorroid (I know, I know, TMI). He's been having some trouble pooping. For some reason, he associates the pain with being on the potty. So he's taken it upon himself to poop ON THE FLOOR NEXT to the toilet. This has happened 3-4 times in the past 3 days. Today we had this big, long talk abotu how if it takes a while to poop, or if it hurts, mommmy will sit right there with him, read him a story, hold his hand, etc. But we must always go on the potty.So, today at lunchtime, he says he has to go like 3 times. Not only do we only have one bathroom in this old house, but DS needs to get completely naked to poop. Needless to say, each time he has to go it's a production. On the 4th time we go upstairs. I give him the talk again about how I can help him, that he needs to use the actual potty. He nods, seems to listen. Then, he asks for some privacy. I am in the middle of closing the door and I see him squatting on the floor NEXT to the toilet. You would all be proud. I handled this by breathing, really conciously. Not saying much (which is really, really hard for me). Cleaned up a big pile of poop while holding off an interested 16 mos old. I told him that every action has a consequence and that I really thought he was listening to me. And that I was just confused. I also said that some of his toys would be taken away b/c he he deliberately disregarded my wishes, and our conversation. I don't know if this was right or wrong. Who knows anymore? I feel that I am just surviving here.

We seemed to be able to turn the day around after this. I remained calm. Ignored most poor behavior, tried to focus on the good stuff. After dinner, while I'm cleaning up, DH calls to say he'd be a little late. The phone conversation was literally less than a minute long. As I'm speaking to DH, Bears says, "Mommy, I'm peeing in my pants and on the floor". Okay, this threw me over the edge. He TOLD ME HE DID THIS B/C I picked up the phone.

Okay, I don't know what all these behaviors mean. And I am currently trying to schedule an appointment with a new, very busy, psychologist. But I am just at a loss more days than not. AT A LOSS.

I guess one of the things I keep coming back to is that I thin we've given poor behavior so much attention in the past in our house. And I think that's where some of this craziness comes from. Bears is literally trying every way he can to get my attention. And to him, the bad is just as good as the good, if ya'll can follow that. I don't know how to undo this. I don't know how this child of mine, the one I slept with since birth, the one who slept on top of me-literally-until he was about 18 mo, the one I nursed until 2.5 ( I know that's not forever, ladies, but it's longer than a month), the one who gets loads of bedtime stories, kisses, hugs, etc., somehow feels that he doesn't get enough. I'm just at a loss.

Anyway, I have the tuition lists and supplemental care lists from Bear's preschool. I know that part of the answer right now is being apart from him. Sounds horrible, right? But it's the truth. The problem is, we can't afford it. He currently goes 5 mornings/week. And I would be interested in having two days/week that he goes in the afternoons. But we just can't swing it.

I can't even express the degree of hardness going on here. I CAN'T EVEN explain it. I'm sure some of you know. I went back and looked at some old journals of mine from when Bears was a little guy, and I was saying thesame things then. Clearly, he has many issues that don't involve my parenting. I know that. But since I am the one here all day, every day, my parenting is what I am obsessed with.

I have much more to say. Part of which is that I have a perfectly "normal", well-adjusted, happy, confident, funny, low-key 16 mos old who I've NEVER had these issues about. I just mother him, that's it. I dont' question it, don't obsess over it. Bears just monopolizes everything in our worlds. And we try deperately to go on about our business, our lives, our parenting of our other son, our marriage. But DH described it the other night like this







t's as if someone has a bull-horn in your ear most minutes of the day and you have to try to act like you don't hear it.

Anyway, just my Wednesday night ramble, ladies. I really don't know if I'll make it through this. I really don't know. I really have so much joy in my heart. So much. So many interests, so many loves, a lot of passions, really. And this one little human can make it all seem inconsequential.

Thanks for listening, as always.









Ahh, was thinking of you earlier today! We're just surviving here also. Starting with the kids getting out of school before the holidays at least one of us as been sick the entire time. Throw in that my mother moved the 2 weeks before that, which leaves me with no baby sitter at all for the littlest one and I'm just









All this unstructured, stuck in the house because we're sick vacation has taken it's toll on my Monkey boy. Yesterday all the kids had a dentist appointment. Do most mothers pray their child doesn't destroy the dental equipment at a cleaning?









It's rough right now and I truly don't have the mental capabilites to elaborate any farther tonight but I'm right there with you.

Ok, gotta run but I'll be following along as usual...


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## Bearsmama

Maureen (and maybe sledg??)-Here's a question for you. I know from what you've shared about Nate that you've probably dealt with this one. How is it possible to keep any balance in the family when there is a kid like Bears? Like, any tips on taking more of this in stride? I think I get a *little* bit what it must be like to have a chronically, physically ill child. I know we are EXTREMELY LUCKY that this is not the case, but I really feel that the challenge of Bears overshados most things in our lives right now. Dealing with him and trying to figure him out, keep him safe, hold him close, get him help, do the right thing, etc., etc., seems like a Herculean effort every single day. Really, I'm not exaggerating at all. How do we balance all this? I end up dissolving in tears many, many nights b/c I am so exasperated by my days. It's just so hard to go about dinner, breakfast, outtings, etc., when dealing with this child. Any ideas?


----------



## Bearsmama

Jennifer-







Hi. Thanks for checking in. I'm sorry thing have been rough for you, too. I am just nodding my head over here when you mentioned the dentist. Needless to say, we're a little late with our check up this time around b/c of I haven't yet gotten over the trauma of the last visit.


----------



## MsMoMpls

It might be a bit late to suggest that spacing your children 17 years apart really helps.







We say Nate was birthcontrol for my whole family for a very long time.

I do believe that finding a support group was a godsend. This is that for you but people in real life- especially people who know the community resources would be really helpful.

Check out you state or county children's mental health agency. That is where I do speakings and trainings in Minnesota. Other parents who have been there are the best ones for sharing tricks of the trade.

My life is actually unbelieveable right now. I am building a non-profit parenting center. Check out my website. www.parentingoasis.com


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## Justine

Bearsmama,

My heart is really going out to you at the moment. Have just caught up on your post and I am so sorry for all the pain you are going through. DS is a challenge but not (yet!) in the way Bears is and I sometimes can just about get through the day. God knows how you cope. It sounds tough.

I am sending you cosmic hugs and am hoping that things improve - even if it is just ONE good day - it can make a lot of difference.

Thoughts with you - you are such a smart, loving, passionate Mummy (English for Mama!) that I am sure you will work this out one day.

I'm off for a midwife appointment (33 weeks now!) and totally relate to child destroying the consultant room. Had to gather various bits of food, toys and other silly things in hope of keeping DS distracted. I have questions to ask my midwife and have a feeling that I'll just about to be able to manage getting through the usual stuff.

He just runs round like a loony - picking up the phone, getting hold of the equipment - makes you feel like a bad mother with an unruly child! I come out of there feeling utterly exhausted and then have to listen to him crying and getting frustrated all the way home whilst dying for a pee!

Bye for Now

Justine


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## Magella

Bearsmama,































Once upon a time, long ago, I had these _ideas_ about what being a parent would be like. But parenting isn't like that at all, unless maybe you have one child who is just uber-calm and uber-content the vast majority of the time, _plus_ no inner turmoil and no financial stress or family tension or other stress that can toss you off center, _and_ all your needs are mostly met by someone who is deeply caring and accepts you unconditionally. Don't know anyone in that situation, I'm sure someone is. The rest of us, I think, move back and forth between having one or more of those things and not having one or more of those things-and so parenting is just not like sailing across a glassy, calm ocean with a good breeze filling your sails. It's more like sailing into and out of all kinds of weather.

I have not experienced exactly what you, Bearsmama, or anyone other mama has gone through. All I know is that my child is hugely challenging for me. And one of the pieces of learning to live with her and feel even slightly balanced has been to change my ideas of what parenting should be like. It is what it is. And often it is just about surviving.

I get what you're saying, Bearsmama, about trying to be there in your marriage and parenting your other child and whatever else but always having this one child demanding all your time and attention. There are no easy answers. It is hard work. I think part of the key is finding a way to not let that one child run the family, to help them find other ways of being important in the family. But as always, that's only part of it. It's always so much more complicated than any one idea.

But that is what life is like. We've all been told a fairy tale, and that fairy tale is called "This is what life is supposed to be like, this is how a healthy adult feels, this is what a good mother does and feels, this is what a normal and good child does and feels, and if life doesn't measure up to this you've done something wrong or something is wrong with you or your child." That tale is just wrong. There is no way that life "should" be. That's not real. Life is the way it is, warts and all, and I think that a good chunk of our pain comes from wishing it were different and denying the way it is. It's scary at first, but I have found that I can embrace it all.

This isn't coming out quite right. I am having a gloomy, discouraged day (not related to parenting). But I am sitting here with my gloom, embracing it, looking at it as best I can to see where exactly it's coming from. I'm feeling gloomy, and I'm not going to die from it. So often our society sends this message that we aren't supposed to feel anything uncomfortable, and we end up thinking we can't stand it or we have this feeling similar to feeling as if we're going to die if we feel bad. But we won't.





















Look, it's sledg, rambling again!








to all you mamas having a hard time right now. It will end, things always get better. There's always ebb and flow. For me it only gets unmanageably hard when I fight it instead of just flowing along with it.

Maureen, I really admire you and your work.








All you ladies are such a gift.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Maureen-Just checked out your new website. I am sooooo impressed with it and the work you are doing.







My only wish is that you were HERE in PA with me!







We do have a parenting center that I have been to before, but I haven't checked them out in a while. I am going to call them this morning to see if they have any support groups for parents of "different" kids. Thank you.

DH and I have talked this week about thinking that there are other things afoot with Bears. His behavior seems to match up with all the symptoms of ADD/ADHD, some Tourette's-type stuff, and now,we're thinking bi-polar (which actually often coincides with ADD/ADHD). This road is scary, uncertain, not at all what we expected as parents. But this is the child we have. And his problems are going to be his problems and issues-whatever they pan out to really be. And we can't control that. The only thing we can control is US and our reactions to him. It is sooo hard. This morning, even after all my epiphanies this week, I ended up getting a bit rough with him, grabbing his face for him to look at me, getting him into his carseat roughly. I am saying these ugly things because I need to share them. This is what it is. We have to try hard, but now we have to try hard in a differnt way. This is what it is. I can't change it.

The funny thing is, I spoke to his preschool teacher this morning and she says that he has been fine. Which is funny b/c when they have commented that that he seems a little "off" at school, he's been fine at home. Hmmmmm???

And sledg-







You words, as always, hit me right in my heart. I am just getting this week actually that Bears is the biggest catalyst for change in my life. For deep, personal & spiritual growth. I'm getting it. Yes, I can talk a blue streak _about_ it, but I am GETTING IT this week. sledg-Knowing that you're out there, trying hard to continue on your path, struggling, being honest, loving your kids, this is huge for me.

Okay, I'm rambling a bit here. Gtg pick up bears.
More when I can. Much love.


----------



## Magella

I have another thought to add. I think that some kids, like my oldest, come into this world just refusing to be controlled. As if any type of external control is offensive or an attack on their autonomy or personhood. This is similar to what Maureen was saying earlier. I have found, through trial and error, that it helps us out a lot when we as parents don't approach situations from a place of wanting control or trying to exert control (through demands and consequences), but from a place of wanting to communicate what we want our children to learn and communicating our feelings. That is _no_t to say that we don't have expectations or limits and that we don't make those clear, and that we don't intervene to prevent certain things. It's just that when we attempt to control, the message gets lost and that natural human resistance (some author somewhere calls this "counterwill") comes to the fore.

I'll try to explain with an example. With my oldest, one of our biggest, longest-lasting challenges has been her hitting her brother. Another has been her intense emotional reactions and rages. Those are the two that always come to mind first. WRT the hitting, we tried sticker charts, we tried time outs, we tried the very simple "we expect you not to hit", and we tried the old separating the siblings. But nothing ever seemed to get through, and one day I sent her to her room for hitting (it had been several days or more since she hit last) and her response was "I'm sorry! (and there I had some hope)....I didn't know I was going to have to go to my room! (what a shocking wake up call for me!)" So not only did she resist any attempt at control (as evidenced in every interaction we had, not just surrounding the hitting), but the message we thought we were sending was not the message she heard. And with the emotional stuff-the dramatic crying, the immediate panic when something goes wrong, the rages-she didn't like being told or asked to take a breath or whatever we tried to teach her to help her calm down. She just plain resists when told what to do, especially if she's feeling very emotional.

So instead what I started trying to do was really communicate with her. I always thought I was listening and being clear, but it turns out it wasn't in quite the right way for her. So now I'll say, if she hits, "Stop. Your brother feels scared when you hit him and so do I. He needs to feel safe and I need to know everyone is safe. I need you to touch gently. I need you to find a different way of handling problems. I can help you. I can see you're upset, is it because....?" and I give her a hug or whatever. Sometimes it seems better to do the hearing/empathy thing first then talk about my need for the kids to not hit. Honestly, a few years ago this would have made no sense to me but for us now it really helps us all. And if she's starting to freak out, I'll touch her or hug her and say "let's relax. I can help you, but first let's relax so we can talk." And we have a cozy corner, a little nook stacked with pillows and blankets, where we go for quiet time and taking time to relax when we're upset. I model this for them as much as I can, telling them when I'm upset that I need a minute to go be quiet and help myself get calm. They all seem, so far, to enjoy this. Even my challenging kid now thinks to go there herself, and yesterday when her brother didn't help her with the dishwasher she came to him and said "I was upset when you didn't help me with the dishwasher, because we were all supposed to do it together. I want you to help next time." No hitting, and more amazingly no yelling!!!! She's 6. He's 4. They both are responding so well to this stuff overall. I am doing well with this as a parent, it helps me so much.

Just an idea to toss out there. I like to share what has helped us, because g_d knows it took us a long, h#llish time to figure out these helpful things.(ETA that what I just described seems wordy, and I know you've said Bears' needs fewer words. I just want to share with you that I always thought that's why my dd needed too-fewer words. "Stop.", "Pants. Now.", etc. But it never helped to talk like that, it just kept me from lecturing or flat out just bitching (which really doesn't help). It doesn't seem to be so much the number of words (though keeping it reasonably short as opposed to a lecture or a tirade is important, too many words can overload anyone) that matter so much as what's I'm saying and how I'm saying it. Communicating on the level of needs and feelings has made a lot of difference. And then stating what I'd like to see happen, rather than demanding it or stating it then listing consequences or whatnot. And I still say "I feel angry." or disappointed or frustrated, but it's in the context of "I feel disappointed because when we talked about this you agreed to (whatever), and I expected you to do it." You know, taking responsibility for my feelings and explaining why I feel that way but not blaming. It just works (meaning, she is receptive and she listens and she is learning even if stuff I don't like still happens, and by expressing myself this way I'm not bottling it all up until I explode), and I'm still surprised. Oh, and I do my best to listen to her this way to, to her needs and feelings, rather than letting behavior control be my focus. She needs this. Who doesn't?)

Ahhh, I've been so long-winded again. It just seems to take so many words to feel as though I've actually come anywhere near explaining what I'm thinking or experiencing.


----------



## Bearsmama

We must have x-posted. Can't wait to read it all.


----------



## Magella

Bearsmama, something about what I posted earlier has been bothering me, and I can't quite get at why. I know that I'm concerned that in posting about how I'm learning to communicate with my daugher (well, all my kids), and how my views regarding what is "normal" for children and what a parent's role is have changed and the huge difference that change in perspective has made for us, and all those little things that have helped along the way, I am not fully acknowledging the enormity of the challenges you face. One of the biggest problems with this form of communication is that it's difficult to fully express thoughts and feelings, everything seems a little oversimplified, and to give anyone the complete history of this journey I've been on with my daughter would take hours. And to fully understand your journey would take as long, as well. It'd be much easier in person over a cup of coffee.

So just know that you have so much empathy from me, Bearsmama, and that my posts are just the only small offering I can give to another mom who's hurting and needs support. I do try to make sure I'm hearing and understanding you and to let you know that, but I think that doesn't always come across very clearly.


----------



## srain

< So he's taken it upon himself to poop ON THE FLOOR NEXT to the toilet. ..... As I'm speaking to DH, Bears says, "Mommy, I'm peeing in my pants and on the floor".

What would happen if you acted completely disinterested in these behaviors, and said, "I'm going to make lunch now. Go change your pants and put them in the diaper pail." Or: "Once that poop is cleaned up from the floor, we can set up some plastic jugs and use them as bowling pins. Here's a rag."

These responses are not going to solve your greater problems, I know, but they do remove any attention benefits he's receiving from them. You might also talk about mutually-preferable solutions to pooping on the floor, and coping mechanisms for when you're on the phone. I know your son isn't much of a talker, but it might help!


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## MsMoMpls

I just heard the best advice ever!!!!

*Do nothing when nothing works.*

Not sure why, but boy does that speak to me.

Glad we are all connecting so well. I agree with sledg that offering ideas and support and different views is touchy but I love that we have created a place where ideas are just ideas, suggestions are not threats. That may be why this thread has had such a long and rich life.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
*Do nothing when nothing works.*

Wow, that is great advice! I like it.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I just heard the best advice ever!!!!

*Do nothing when nothing works.*

Not sure why, but boy does that speak to me.

Glad we are all connecting so well. I agree with sledg that offering ideas and support and different views is touchy but I love that we have created a place where ideas are just ideas, suggestions are not threats. That may be why this thread has had such a long and rich life.

Great advice, indeed.

I'm just recovering from a hellish night. I've had a wicked sore throat and decided to go have it checked out yesterday since my oldest just got over strep. Wouldn't you know I couldn't get in to see the Dr. until AFTER all the kids were out of school, but I went with that. My DD also has basketball practice on Thurs. nights so we had to go to that as well. On top of having to be out all afternoon into the evening with them, Cole got in trouble at school yesterday. Two things... first, he was playing "drums" on his seat in the cafeteria while his friends sang. Now, personally, I find this hiliarious but understand why he was in trouble. The second thing was that he colored part of a worksheet in class with his pencil and I received a note with another worksheet for him to do over. WTF? But ok, I had him fix it.

To be very honest, it was just the proverbial straw for me. And I realize this is about me by this point, not him. I have had a time with him over the break and to have only been back to school for two days... it was just too much at that moment that he was acting up there, too. So after practice it was so late that we decided to eat out. I ordered dinner and the girl was repeating my order back to me when Cole started yelling "You forgot to say no pickles! You forgot to say no pickles!" right in my ear. All the frustration just erupted from me. I turned around and yelled at him... not raised my voice, I yelled... really really yelled. And then I smacked him on the leg. We got our food, I drove home silent, my DH got everyone into the house and I sat in the car just crying.

As I told DH when he came back out to check on me, I am just so overwhelmed sometimes. I take everything about Cole so personally. Like what he does is a result of something I've done. So when those notes start coming home, I feel as though I'm supposed to correct what he's doing. And the truth is that I CAN'T. I've tried. I've tried and then tried some more. I've done everything I know to do and at the end of the day, he's gonna do what he's gonna do. And to part of me, that sounds like SUCH a cop out. Who shrugs their shoulders and says "I can't stop what he does"? That just SOUNDS so wrong to me. I should be able to help fix it. I should be able to help him stay within the boundaries that are set up. I know I've paid far too much attention to the looks and responses from others, however, when the reason I'm even looking at these people is to give a sheepish apology smile as I remove my son from their personal space, it's kinda hard not to notice the "Geeze, lady!" looks.

I did get myself put back together, came inside, and apologized to Cole. I promised him that what happened would never happen again. So I guess my task is learning to not let these things build up. Sometimes I'm better at letting go than others... but stress has been running high lately so maybe that is contributing to things. The lack of support outside of my husband is really draining as well.

So there's my confessional. I really sucked yesterday.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
So when those notes start coming home, I feel as though I'm supposed to correct what he's doing. And the truth is that I CAN'T. I've tried. I've tried and then tried some more. I've done everything I know to do and at the end of the day, he's gonna do what he's gonna do. And to part of me, that sounds like SUCH a cop out. Who shrugs their shoulders and says "I can't stop what he does"? That just SOUNDS so wrong to me. I should be able to help fix it. I should be able to help him stay within the boundaries that are set up.

First, Jennifer, a big







. I understand what you said above about how "he's gonna do what he's gonna do" sounding like a cop out. I thought it was my mission in life as a mother to _fix_ my kids, to _make_ them behave certain ways. In my mind teaching my kids meant fixing or controlling them, making them do things. But I have learned that, although this is the message our culture sends, this is not what a parent's job is. A parent's job is to guide, to teach our kids through modeling the behavior we want to see, through communicating expectations, through explaining, and through giving feedback. We cannot control our kids, and we can only _make_ them do things if we use threats or punishments or shame (and then we can only make them do _some_ things)-and doing this doesn't necessarily mean they will learn what we want them to learn. We can give information and then support them and guide them as they learn through their own actions-whether those actions have pleasant consequences or unpleasant ones.

And our kids don't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with them. It's not easy, we talk about unconditional love and we really do love our kids unconditionally, but so many of us have trouble accepting them unconditionally. We see how they are, what they're doing, but instead of accepting that this is what's going on right now we wish it were different, and instead of _just responding_ we start trying to fix.

If I could give one gift to all parents, especially mothers, it would be the gift of taking away the burden of thinking we are totally personally responsible for what our kids do. We can guide and influence another person, but we cannot _control_ them. We just can't. All we can do is guide them to the best of our ability, and that is a huge and wonderful thing.

I think schools and society ask parents to control their kids simply because that is more convenient for schools and society, not because it's right or even possible or helpful to the growth of a human being. And society and schools have some very unrealistic expectations of and views regarding children.

And you had a bad day, that's all. We all have them. Today is a new day. Forgive yourself. Try to take care of yourself, all parents need to care for themselves in order to care for their children.


----------



## hhurd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I think schools and society ask parents to control their kids simply because that is more convenient for schools and society, not because it's right or even possible or helpful to the growth of a human being. And society and schools have some very unrealistic expectations of and views regarding children.

That is sooo true. The last few posts have really resonated with me. My dh and I can manage my ds' "quirks," but he really seems to throw his teachers for a loop...big time. Sometimes I get their frustration, other times I think their expectations are way out of whack for my son. But I know exceptions for him aren't always possible. Hence my conflicted feelings, guilt, sense of responsibility, and so on. At times it seems my best options are 1) take him out of school (not possible) or 2) stay with him at school to make sure he does everything that's expected of him (obviously not possible).

I'm being a little silly and rambling, but wanted to chime in with an "I hear ya!"


----------



## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
How is it possible to keep any balance in the family when there is a kid like Bears? Like, any tips on taking more of this in stride?

I know the above question was not directed at me but I'd like to comment, if I may.

I think life in general is a balancing act. I keep (mistakenly) thinking that one day I'm going to get it "right" and my life is going to be organized and I'm going to have everything under control.

Er, no.














: I keep getting that lesson thumped over my head when I forget it.

Some days I fully realize that hey, this is the way life is and I can't do any more than take the day as it comes. Some days are crap, but some days flow pretty well. On the days that are crap, when I'm lying in bed thinking "I should have done this or that better." or "Why does this happen to me?" I am getting better at cutting those thoughts off and saying to myself (a la Scarlett O'Hara, if you will) "Hey, tomorrow is another day."
And then I can think thank goodness, I have another chance to do better and try again.

Speaking of lessons, there is a great list called "Rules for Being Human":
Here is a one link to it: Rules for Being Human
I won't post all of it here.
The idea is that life is a series of lessons. A lesson is repeated until it is learned. So "mistakes" do not exist, they are "lessons" to teach us something.

Quote:

Rule 9 YOUR ANSWERS LIE INSIDE YOU. The answers to life's questions lie inside you. All you need to do is look, listen, and trust.
Rule 10 YOU WILL FORGET ALL THIS.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
DH and I have talked this week about thinking that there are other things afoot with Bears. His behavior seems to match up with all the symptoms of ADD/ADHD, some Tourette's-type stuff, and now,we're thinking bi-polar (which actually often coincides with ADD/ADHD).

Bearsmama, I'm hearing from your post (and please forgive and correct me if I misinterpreted) that part of what is troubling you is that you can't seem to get a handle on what exactly is different about Bears. You know that he's "challenging" but that doesn't quite cover it.
It would be easier and something of a relief for you if you could point at one thing and say "ah-ha! that's what it is. Now I can get started and know how to go about dealing with this."
Is that right?

I see in this thread other parents like myself who are struggling with children who are "different". And so far there seems to be no other way to deal with our situations than to reflect on ourselves, our invididual children and find out what works best -- through trial and error -- for each of us. But it is a relief for me to know that by having this thread, even though all our situations may not be exactly the same, we can all relate to the day by day struggles to figure things out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Once upon a time, long ago, I had these _ideas_ about what being a parent would be like. But parenting isn't like that at all ...
<snip>
..and so parenting is just not like sailing across a glassy, calm ocean with a good breeze filling your sails. It's more like sailing into and out of all kinds of weather.









:
Very aptly put, Sledg. You have a way with analogies.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
But that is what life is like. We've all been told a fairy tale, and that fairy tale is called "This is what life is supposed to be like, this is how a healthy adult feels, this is what a good mother does and feels, this is what a normal and good child does and feels, and if life doesn't measure up to this you've done something wrong or something is wrong with you or your child." That tale is just wrong. There is no way that life "should" be. That's not real. Life is the way it is, warts and all, and I think that a good chunk of our pain comes from wishing it were different and denying the way it is. It's scary at first, but I have found that I can embrace it all.

It took me a long time to realize that some of the preconceived ideas I had were because of that "fairy tale" that was told to me. All the "Life is supposed to be like this and this and this."







So wrong.
I was so angry when realized that this was not true. It was a liberating but also overwhelmingly scary feeling to realize that life is not anything but what it is, that we can't always know what will happen next, and that our lives will be our own unique lives rather than fitting into a ready made mold.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
And with the emotional stuff-the dramatic crying, the immediate panic when something goes wrong, the rages-she didn't like being told or asked to take a breath or whatever we tried to teach her to help her calm down. She just plain resists when told what to do, especially if she's feeling very emotional.

My dd is like this. When she is crying for whatever reason, she can get so intense and emotional that breathes in those big-crying-jag-gasps.
I tried also to help her by telling her to take a deep breath, but that would only upset her further. She would sob "I can't take a breath, I don't like to take a breath, it's too hard."







My poor babe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I just heard the best advice ever!!!!

*Do nothing when nothing works.*

Not sure why, but boy does that speak to me.


It speaks to me, too. Thanks for sharing that!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I thought it was my mission in life as a mother to _fix_ my kids, to _make_ them behave certain ways. In my mind teaching my kids meant fixing or controlling them, making them do things. But I have learned that, although this is the message our culture sends, this is not what a parent's job is. ...
<snip>
...
And our kids don't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with them. It's not easy, we talk about unconditional love and we really do love our kids unconditionally, but so many of us have trouble accepting them unconditionally.

If I could give one gift to all parents, especially mothers, it would be the gift of taking away the burden of thinking we are totally personally responsible for what our kids do.


I find our culture's expectations overwhelming. I find it very difficult not to feel the pressure of "You must control your child. Your child is a reflection of you." But that's my problem that I"m working on. I wold like to be able to better ignore the scolding voices (in my head and in reality) of others who try to reinforce that burden that I am responsible for all my child's actions.

There is a writing I like by Anne Ohman, who is a mom who has a Yahoo group "Shine with Unschooling". Anne is an advocate of unschooling as being the best solution for children, especially those who do not fit in with the what the rest of the world expects.
Now let me first disclaim that I know unschooling is not for everyone. But I think there is a little something for everyone to take away from her writing.
For me, there is the deep feeling that resonates in her struggle of "What is wrong with my child? How do I deal with this?", then her determination to accept her child as is and work with him and find the positive rather than the negative, to accept him unconditionally and do what she could (by unschooling) to give her child the freedom to be who he is.
Link: I Am What I Am
Quote:

Quote:

... I had an insatiable hunger for information from parents who had experience with the same challenges. I read numerous books and joined on-line lists, yet only grew increasingly frustrated with the answers I was receiving. It seemed the focus of the books and the lists was always the same: advice was given to assist you in forcing your special needs child into that society-typical box, mainly the school box, and even with homeschoolers, it was the school-at-home box. The children are forced to fit into those boxes, no matter how demeaning and defeating it is to their happiness and their peace. And here were experts to give you advice on how to do it. According to them, there was no alternative.








Eek. Sorry for the long response. Hope it didn't put anyone to sleep.


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## emblmrgrl

Sledg-as in nearly every post, wise words. Thank you.

I feel very fortunate today to have a place to reflect with mothers who get it.


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## emblmrgrl

loon- Wow @ the Rules for Being Human. I loved that. #7 really hits home today for me.

Quote:

OTHERS ARE MERELY MIRRORS OF YOU. You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects something you love or hate about yourself


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## Magella

loon, I love that quote from "I Am What I Am."

It's not our children that don't fit the boxes. It's the boxes that don't fit the children. It's not the children who need changing, it's the boxes that need to be reevaluated-or gotten rid of.

In fact, we could say that for any given person about any given box, couldn't we? People are too complicated to be neatly put into boxes.

I was thinking something like this earlier today: sometimes when you're struggling and things aren't working it's not that you need to try harder or to find some new technique to get to the same goal, but that you need a new definition, a new way of seeing things, a new goal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
Bearsmama, I'm hearing from your post (and please forgive and correct me if I misinterpreted) that part of what is troubling you is that you can't seem to get a handle on what exactly is different about Bears. You know that he's "challenging" but that doesn't quite cover it.
It would be easier and something of a relief for you if you could point at one thing and say "ah-ha! that's what it is. Now I can get started and know how to go about dealing with this."
Is that right?

I see in this thread other parents like myself who are struggling with children who are "different". And so far there seems to be no other way to deal with our situations than to reflect on ourselves, our invididual children and find out what works best -- through trial and error -- for each of us.

This really speaks to me. This is what I was looking for, for a long time. A well-defined problem, so I could say "That's what it is. Now I can find the solution, now I can find out exactly the right thing to do to _fix_ it." Now, I never found a label so I can't say whether or not it would've helped. But I don't think it would've been an answer, though it may have given us some helpful information (or maybe not so helpful, because it's another box). It still would've been up to me and dh to deal with the issues daily, to find ways of coping that worked for all of us (mostly). The issues we face would have remained. So it really does, in my experience, come down to connecting with myself and with my child, and trying this and that until I find something that "works", that allows us to get by with more harmony and less struggle. It comes down to unconditional acceptance of every member of this family, to accepting that it is what it is. To meeting my child where she is, accepting her as she is, and going from there a moment at a time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
But it is a relief for me to know that by having this thread, even though all our situations may not be exactly the same, we can all relate to the day by day struggles to figure things out.

I am so deeply grateful for this. Just to know we are all going through something similar, that we aren't alone in this, is such a relief-and it is always a comfort to come here and listen and share, and to be understood.


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## Bearsmama

As always, mamas, I'm reading, reading, reading-trying to let it all sink in.







:

I have a feeling that I'm petering out here, so this may be brief. But Maureen- Do nothing when nothing works -this is big for me. And also a huge challenge. I want to always DO SOMETHING. I'm sure it has something to do with what sledg and others have talked about a bit, this need we have to *fix* things. Just sitting with stuff, BAD stuff, hard stuff, is one of my personal challenges.

Sorry, gtg. More when I can, ladies. Much love.







I have so much I want to respond to here. And especially loon's thoughtful post. And sledg-as always, so many wise words. Goodnight!


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## TEAK's Mom

So much has happened here since I left. It sounds silly, but I've missed all of you. I'll be back soon with more to say. Hugs!


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## Bearsmama

Hi TEAKS!







: Glad you're back.

I have much more to say then just this, but I was hoping that you would understand why I needed to share just this tonight: Laying in bed with Bears tonight getting ready to read our bedtime stories, he says, "Mommy, I have to tell you something." Which is something he says ALL the time before he says anything-like, "Mommy, I have to tell you something. I have to go the bathroom". Tonight, however, he says, "I don't want you to stay with me anymore. I want daddy to stay with me." And as I felt the tears come to my eyes, I said, "Really?". And he said, "Yes." And went on to describe what he and daddy would do together, etc., etc.









I'm trying not to be a big baby about this, but I've said things like this to Bears before in my angry moments. I've said, "If this doesn't change, I'm going to go back to work", or "If you don't work as a team with me, then daddy can stay with you". And of course, I've always regretted this and apologized for this every time. I try to be really accountable for my words and actions, I really do. And DH is now, tonight, saying to me that he doesn't realize what he's saying, he's just talking, blah blah blah. But for some reason, and perhaps b/c he has NEVER said this to me, even after I've said some not nice things to him, I feel that it seems like he's actually been *thinking* about this. Is that overreacting? I guess it is. It just totally sucks that you have to learn all this HUGE S*@t *WHILE* raising them. Ugh.

Has anyone else's kid every said this to them????

Anyway, still reading, and wanting to respond more fully to some of the great posts here in recent weeks. More when I can. And thanks for listening.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, my kids do this all the time. When one is with me, they want Daddy. When they're with Daddy, they want me. Frankly, I think it's very possible you're reading more into it than you have to. I think it's quite possible he's just reaching a stage where Daddy seems really cool, and he's thinking about all the fun he could have if he and Daddy hang out together. One of my two older kids, I think my challenging daughter did once ask if I could work and Daddy stay home. She loves her Daddy, and the thought of him being home all day instead of me is intriguing at times.

But yeah, it does stink to hear that when you're feeling guilty about how you've interacted with your child. BTDT.








You're just the mommy he needs. Because you're his mommy. And he loves you. And you love him.


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## loon13

Bearsmama,

Yes, my dd has said this to me. Either "I want Daddy" and even "I don't like you"!

Both phrases have been said when she's upset for various reasons. I admit the first time she said "I dont' like you!", I felt gut-punched. It just sucks.








But I eventually realized it was in the midst of an emotional upset. And I know what runs through *my* head when I'm upset, so I tried not to take it personally.

The "I want Daddy" has also been said in very calm moments though. Like sledg said, Bears may just be at a point where he wants to do things with Daddy. It took my dd a long time to willingly choose DH, since I was always her number one preference for comfort, for help, for anything. And he struggled with not taking it personally. So when she started choosing to do certain things with him, he was thrilled, needless to say. And then I had to struggle with not being the top pick anymore.








DD still chooses him over me to play toys with every time. But DH is better at playing with her than I am. To understate it a little, dd simply has a different relationship with dh than she does with me.

So maybe Bears is just realizing that there are certain events and things he wants to share with you and some he wants to share with your DH.
What kinds of things did he describe? Was it specific games or activities or more a general day with daddy? It could be he wants some one on one time with him, especially if your dh is the working parent.

Take a deep breath and see what comes. Since you are feeling guilty about past behaviour, it very well could be coloring your perception a bit.

FWIW, I think your response to Bears was great. You didn't judge or snap at him. You simply acknowledged what he said. That's a big thing for Bears right there, for him to know he could tell you something he was thinking and that you simply sat and listened to him.








We are always here to listen.


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- I agree completely that it is normal. I also think kids feel so wonderfully powerful about getting to chose between us. That is why divorce can make kids so messed up- because the silly game they play suddenly becomes oh too real.

That said... here is what happened to me today. Joey said "Mommy, know what I dreamed about? I dreamed about daddy. I dreamed that daddy was a bad daddy. That he yelled at me..." Then with a fear I haven't heard before he said "But Don't Tell Him." When I pushed him just a bit, he said that Daddy would be mad about this.

I feel so sad. Paul is a great daddy. He really is. But... he does yell too easily, and too often and more than anything just isn't here as much as he used to so that his being frustrated is getting to be a bigger part of his parenting. I feel like this is how men stop talking, that this is why men struggle so much with their own feelings. I am going to wait a few days and let it sit and then I think I will tell Paul exactly what Joey said and try and get him to see that he is taking things way too hard with Joey. One thing is that Joey is playing with "I hate you" and it does nothing to me but it pushes Paul's buttons and since right now he is really feeling guilty about not being here much- he can't hear it and ignore it the way I can. I know that is part of what they are struggling with. Oh- as much as it was really hard to raise Nate without his father... this sharing kids is complicated stuff. Funny that it came up for us at the same time, Bearsmamma.

On a side note... the momma that I shared about over Christmas who lost her baby to SIDS has been emailing me and actually called me last night for support. Her heart is broken and her pain is enormous but I know she will be ok. Just hearing her pain and knowing she is alive with it... if that makes any sense... makes me feel confident that she is on a long road of healing. Just wanted to share.

Thanks mommas so much!


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## Bearsmama

Oh, mamas, thank you









sledg & loon-I think you're both right. I think, now taking a step back from things, that this is all completely normal. And, loon, I do think you're right in that my shame and guilt about how I've parented Bears over the past year+ is sort of coloring everything right now. He has wanted daddy more lately. And that's generally OKAY. In fact, it is a much needed break for me during the nighttime routine. But this, coupled with our hard, hard time over the holidays and the past few weeks made me feel like crap. And sledg-I appreciate what you said about me being the rigth mommy for Bears. I wonder this a lot lately. Especially in light of my parenting missteps-and as you know, there have been a lot of them. Lately I've been thinking that I'm not the right mama AT ALL for this child. That he needs someone better, less angry, less issue-laden, someone more cheerful, etc. It's hard to get out of this rut.

Another thing I keep struggling with (and sledg knows this) is the guilt and shame of it all. And about how to repair all that. I am trying to let it go, but it's very hard, VERY HARD. I am reading, tryign to breathe, etc. It's just so grueling sometimes. For some reason, I have these feelings about Bears that I don't have with our other son AT ALL. With our little one, I just parent him, and yes, I make mistakes, but I move on, I keep going. I dont' sweat my parenting with the little one. Clearly, he's got some time to start pushing more buttons.







But I don't think it's just age, or the fact that he's our 2nd child. There's just this level of intensity with Bears, this soul connection thing. Something about him must remind me of a little ME. Or something. B/c I'm hard on him and hard on myself.

And Maureen-I saved getting back to you for last. So much to say. I'm sorry you're going through this with your husband. Unfortunately, I know how that feels firsthand b/c Bears has commented on my yelling to ME! But back to you. I think there's a lot of guilt involved when you don't feel that you're physically there for your kids. Plus, if he's not there a whole lot, it must mean he's working a lot and well, that's just a vicious cycle (circle?). Would he (or is he?) open to your words of help about anger that you've had for me and other mamas? Or does he just wish you'd take off your therapist hat with him.

Sounds like you are being a big support to your friend suffering through her loss. Literally, tears were streaming down my face when I read that post. And yes, I totally get what you mean that you were sort of relieved (my words) to know that she was ALIVE with all this pain. Still carrying it. I hope you're able to continue to be there for this friend. I'm sure some people in her *real* life don't know what to do or say or whether or not they should reach out. I think death, especially this kind of death, does that to some people. I think just being in her life and being able to take this kind of pain is huge.

Gtg to bed now. I am planning a small, family party for Sunday and I haven't quite gotten it all nailed down yet.
More when I can, mamas.


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## emblmrgrl

Giving this thread a little bump to check in on everyone!

Had a really productive day yesterday and felt like sharing. I was nosing around the GD section and found an article that resonated with me http://www.naturalchild.org/marshall...ten_steps.html and my struggle with the yelling and anger that comes when I'm having a particularly bad day. It seems so simple in retrospect but yet is so hard in the middle of that moment. So I read and set out to figure out why I have the anger when Cole is having a meltdown... as pointed out in the article what need of mine ISN'T being met at that moment? My conclusion was (particularly when it's in public) my need to feel unnoticed. I'm a complete introvert and hate being in the spotlight so when he draws attention to us in public I just get furious. At home, I suppose those needs are simpler... the need for order, space, to go to the bathroom alone, whatever. I'm hoping that will help me deal more effectively and be able to diffuse some situations by looking for what Cole's needs are that aren't being met when in those moments. I'm not always the best at that.

Hope everyone is doing well!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
as pointed out in the article what need of mine ISN'T being met at that moment









I keep Non Violent Communication (Marshall Rosenberg's book) handy, because what he has to say about unmet needs makes so much sense! Whenever I can remember to just stop for a moment and ask what needs of my own are unmet and what needs of my child's are unmet, I can let go of the anger and find the solution that we need at the moment. Life becomes much more peaceful immediately. It's remembering to stop that takes a lot of practice.

Highly, highly recommend that book to anyone!

Hope everyone is well. My challenging one is alternating between loving school and not wanting to go/not liking to be there. Screaming most nights in her sleep, which she has done all her life, and keeping us all awake. My son went back to preschool after a 6 week break (they follow the schedule of the college they're part of) and I mis him. My littlest one is totally out of diapers during the day and using the potty like a pro. Suddenly I am no longer the mother of babies, I'm the mother of big kids. It's a little sad and a lot wonderful and a lot scary. I am again feeling like a good enough mom, getting my confidence back. And I realized the other day that it takes a whole lot of courage to be a parent.


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## arimama

I just wanted to say hello
I was searching for something else and came across this thread.
I have been reading and am so relieved (strangely) to see that there are kids just like my 3.5 year old son. We have not been able to figure out if his behavior is normal and we are just terrible parents or if he actually is MORE intense than other kids.
Dh and I have come to the end of our ropes and are seeking counseling and parenting classes.
This childs raging 1+ hour tantrums have begun to give me panick attacks. I pretty much walk on eggshells all the time, terrified that i am going to do something to set him off. The things that make him go crazy are mind boggling to me.
I had this impression that attachment parenting produced peaceful, sweet children. And when I made the decision to parent gently it didnt occur to me that I would get the child I have now. It ddint occure to me that a three year old could insite rage within me.
I am not the parent I wanted to be or even the one I thought I was ds when DS was younger.
anyway i have really enjoyed reading your wisdom so far


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## Justine

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to check in and say hello whilst DS is out with Granny (a rare treat for me!). We're having a mini-crisis here - am 36 weeks pregnant now and 2 weeks ago I came down with a really debilitating back condition - pelvic girdle pain - which has left me pretty immobile. Everything fine with baby - just me in agony.

Dealing with DS who as you know is Mr.Challenging was going to be hellish - I did have 3 days on my own with him which were frankly dangerous as I couldn't get to him quick enough when he was climbing on the mantelpiece ;-)
So Granny has stepped in for the time being - although they say my condition may not go until after the delivery and may even continue after that! Does anyone know that feeling when you can't believe that things can get any worse................? It's one of those times at the mo for us. All very tired and under pressure. We're even thinking that DP may have to give up work to being able to cope with DS and new baby if back condition continues.

Anyway - hi to arimama - I really identify with what you are saying about this idea that going down the road of attachment parenting would produce a peaceful child. You feel so short-changed don't you, even though that sounds awful as I type it. I also walk on egg-shells a lot around my little one, which feels so wrong. I am so sorry to hear about the panic attacks - I hope you get the help/support you need.

Sledg - smiled at the news of all the changes going on with your kiddies and how it's such a mix of emotions for you. It helped me think about how things do keep changing and moving forward and yes you are so right about needing so much courage to be a parent.

emblmrgrl - going to read the article you posted now.

love & hugs to you all.

ps: bearsmama - how's life your end?


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arimama*
I had this impression that attachment parenting produced peaceful, sweet children. And when I made the decision to parent gently it didnt occur to me that I would get the child I have now. It ddint occure to me that a three year old could insite rage within me.









I thought the same. I assumed that attachment parenting and gentle discipline would mean children who were peaceful and well-behaved overall. I never for a moment thought I would feel such rage, or that my child would have raging tantrums for close to an hour, or that I would find myself doing the very things I swore I'd never do, or that I would at times feel as though I didn't like one child while enjoying my others always. There was a lot about parenting my children that never crossed my mind as possibilities.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arimama*
I am not the parent I wanted to be or even the one I thought I was ds when DS was younger.

Many of us have felt the same.







But personally, the parent I wanted to be was perfect and was the parent of perfect children. That, I know now, is just not possible. But it is possible to be a good enough parent, and the best I can do is to try my best and do my best.

Justine,







I am so sorry to hear about your pain! I hope the next few weeks go by quickly and that your pain goes away right away after the baby is born. I'm glad to hear you have some help. And I hope that you have an easy and safe labor, and that the baby remains healthy.


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## marybethorama

Bearsmama wrote:
< So he's taken it upon himself to poop ON THE FLOOR NEXT to the toilet. ..... As I'm speaking to DH, Bears says, "Mommy, I'm peeing in my pants and on the floor". >

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
What would happen if you acted completely disinterested in these behaviors, and said, "I'm going to make lunch now. Go change your pants and put them in the diaper pail." Or: "Once that poop is cleaned up from the floor, we can set up some plastic jugs and use them as bowling pins. Here's a rag."

These responses are not going to solve your greater problems, I know, but they do remove any attention benefits he's receiving from them. You might also talk about mutually-preferable solutions to pooping on the floor, and coping mechanisms for when you're on the phone. I know your son isn't much of a talker, but it might help!

this is way TMI but when I was in labor with Timmy, I pooped on the floor. I didn't have a choice, being in transition and almost ready to push







No one punished me for it or even said a word.

I know that it seems like Bears is doing this to be difficult but if he's in pain it may be much easier to poop on the floor. TMI again but I get terrribly constipated when pg and the only way to poop is squatting on the floor. I do then go to sit on the toilet but it may be hard for a little kid to do that.

Not that it's not a big PITA to deal with poop when you have a younger baby around but could it be just a physical thing with him?

Of course you don't want him to do this forever. That would be no fun. I was maybe thinking a kid's potty but IMO a cleaining a potty is worse than cleaning poop off the floor.


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## emblmrgrl

arimama, Welcome! There's some wonderful advice here.

Justine, sorry about the pain issue you're having. I had pubic symphisis dysfunction when I was expecting my last one so I can relate. It sucks to be in pain on top of being pregnant and dealing with a challenging child, too.

Sledg, I am fully planning on ordering Non violent Communication sometime next week and probably some other books of Rosenburg's. I'm really enjoying what I've read in his articles. I'm rather proud of a moment I had last night using the new techniques. Cole broke a window out of my van and I didn't yell! LOL (He threw a rock) Granted, when it was time to sit down and discuss things with him I was firm and loud, at times, but I figure such a serious offense is a pretty good time to be loud if it's gonna happen. Just trying to remember to respond and not react.

Speaking of mothering big kids, my oldest turns 10 in a couple of weeks... big mix of emotions surrounding that mile marker!


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## Magella

emblmrgrl, I think you're doing extremely well if you didn't yell when he broke your van window! And you know, I've come to believe that it's not the volume of your voice that makes a difference as much as it is what you say. Sure, I don't think being loud is pleasant and if I were loud every day or all day it would be pretty stressful for my kids. But I still think it's more what you say and how you say it than it is the volume of your voice. Rosenberg gave a great example of this in one of his books, but I can't find it at the moment. I believe he came home from a very stressful day, and his kids were loudly fighting or playing, and he yelled that he'd had a hard day, and he was feeling upset, and he just wanted some quiet so he was frustrated that his request for quiet had not been met when he asked. I wish I could remember better. Anyway, what he said was all his feelings and his desires and he was taking responsibility. He was loud, but it was all "giraffe." And his kids, I don't remember the ages, responded by stopping and asking if he needed to talk about it.

So as much as I strive to not be yelling, these days I'm more concerned with the words I'm using and the feelings and needs I'm expressing than I am with the volume of my voice. And you know, I'm finding that when I'm making the effort to express myself this way the volume of my voice is just sort of automatically lower. But I'm still learning, and some days it's tough.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

I've been trying to get back here for a few weeks now. And although I've checked in with MDC since then, I find that I save this thread for those times that I have more than 5 minutes to check in, and more than a fuzzy brain.

Although I can never guarantee that I won't be fuzzy-brained.









I gues I'll start at the beginning:



emblmrgrl said:


> Giving this thread a little bump to check in on everyone!
> 
> Had a really productive day yesterday and felt like sharing. I was nosing around the GD section and found an article that resonated with me http://www.naturalchild.org/marshall...ten_steps.html and my struggle with the yelling and anger that comes when I'm having a particularly bad day. It seems so simple in retrospect but yet is so hard in the middle of that moment. So I read and set out to figure out why I have the anger when Cole is having a meltdown... as pointed out in the article what need of mine ISN'T being met at that moment? My conclusion was (particularly when it's in public) my need to feel unnoticed. I'm a complete introvert and hate being in the spotlight so when he draws attention to us in public I just get furious. At home, I suppose those needs are simpler... the need for order, space, to go to the bathroom alone, whatever. I'm hoping that will help me deal more effectively and be able to diffuse some situations by looking for what Cole's needs are that aren't being met when in those moments. I'm not always the best at that.
> 
> Emblem-I really think that this is 99% of my problem. Yes, Bears is extremely difficult, but it's all about me, really. And if I can take care of ME throughout our days, I can really detach a bit and take care of him better. YKWIM? I haven't fully read the article you linked, but I'm going to try to tonight. Oh, and about the yelling. I think you're right. I have a friend who yells at her kids. And before I had my challenging child I really thought that she was loud, and wasn't exercising any "self-control" at the time, or whatever my thought was at the time. Well (and of course this is not about degrees of messing up or anything), I realized that she just yells sometimes our of frustration and it's out and over. And me, well, I sometimes take things to another level. I say things I shouldn't, I start blaming, or saying "YOU" instead of "I", or just downright being mean. My friend really does none of this, she just yells. SO, it really IS about WHAT we say when we yell or get angry or whatever.
> 
> sledg-I just placed an order at Amazon for two books. And since my b-day is coming up, another book could have been worked into the mix
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I FORGOT about NVC. This will be on my next order. I like what you said about it taking courage to be a parent. You know, anyone can give birth, right? (well, not anyone, but you know what I mean). But to really be PRESENT, to do this, to stay engaged, to not let your ideals slide, even in the worst times, IS courageous. It really is. Thanks, sledg, for this. Something for all of us here to think about and realize that if we're discussing this, if we're battling our own demons to better ourselves and by degree our parenting, well, then we all have this courage.
> 
> arimama-Welcome. You know, when I was nursing Bears round the clock, and he slept ON me for the first 18 months of his life, and slinging, and trying desperately to meet all his needs, I thought, "I'm doing all the right things, the good things, and he's STILL not happy-what's wrong??" I guess I had some expectation that trying to meet his needs would change him. Well, I've come to realize that he came into this world hard-wired as he is. And no amount of AP could change him. I often look at him and wonder where he came from. And often think that I never expected to have a child like Bears. Never. And of course, I didn't think I had any of these expectations. But I guess we all do somewhere.
> 
> Justine-I hope you're taking good care of yourself. You may have already had that new baby! Let us know!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This morning I had one of those meltdown moments. Bears is a little OCD about his clothing, underwear, the order in which he gets dressed, etc. This morning, my DH, who bravely deals with the clothing battle every morning, had to leave early. Seriouslys, ladies, I cannot deal AT ALL with Bear's clothing issues. And DH and I have worked things so that this duty falls to him in the mornings. Well, there was a sock issue. The sock issue involved me using the F word in conjunction with the socks. Over and over and over again. A little over 4 years ago, big and pregnant with Bears, do ya think I ever expected these words to come out of my mouth while parenting my "baby"? Never.
> 
> Anyway, I'm losing steam here. Sorry for the ramble. It's so nice to be able to check in here with other mamas who truly do "get it".
> 
> More when I can. And thanks again for keeping this thread alive.


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## Sydnee

Wow, what an answered prayer this topic is for me.







I have a 4.5 year old DD, and a 2.5 year old DD with baby #3 due in May. D#2 is my high needs munchkin. With my first, she was soooooooo easy going, had her normal terrible 2's, but Emma is just so much more magnified than Rachel was! I feel lost, and like noone else knows how to help. Being on Mothering has given some wonderful advice, but as far as the GD forum, I stay away from it, it only helps me to feel worse.

My problem is that I have a hot temper. I do daycare in my home, so I know that I have alot of patience, but with Emma, and even with Rachel, I can get so over the top, that I feel so bad. And it's doubly frustrating, because my mother was the most gentle spirited woman you will ever meet, so I am NOT like her.









I often wonder how it will be having the new baby come, and it freaks me right out. I often wish I didn't have to do daycare, because I do have alot of frustrations with daycare kids (I have one that is so very mean, biting, hitting, etc. and a baby that screams most of the day for me) but I do love what I do for the most part. And I definately think that if I didn't do daycare, Emma might not be the way she is, kwim?? Isn't guilt funny? I quit my job, because I couldn't stand being away from Rachel as a baby, but now I sometimes wonder if that was such a good choice, will my kids regret the fact that I did daycare??? Ugh...









Anyway, thank you ladies for your wise words, and like I said, I am soo happy to find people who feel the same way as I do. I definatley do not feel alone anymore!!!


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## Sydnee

Oops, forgot to subscribe


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## Magella

Welcome, Sydnee! I don't have lots of time but some thoughts...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sydnee*
My problem is that I have a hot temper. I do daycare in my home, so I know that I have alot of patience, but with Emma, and even with Rachel, I can get so over the top, that I feel so bad. And it's doubly frustrating, because my mother was the most gentle spirited woman you will ever meet, so I am NOT like her.









BTDT with the temper. So have others here. I am so fine with other people's kids, my relationship with my own children is so much more intense. I think you're pretty normal. And please don't compare yourself to other moms, even your own. You are you, not those other moms. (ETA that there is a thread on yelling that some found helpful, if you'd like to peruse it. It is certainly not the only thread on the subject, it's just the one I remember best. At least you'll see that you aren't the only hot-tempered mama here. Help me stop yelling)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sydnee*
And I definately think that if I didn't do daycare, Emma might not be the way she is, kwim??

Please do not go down the road of "if only I didn't do this, my child might be "normal." For one thing, you cannot ever know. For another, "if only" is a fantasy while the child you've got right in front of you-just as she is-is reality. The "if only"s are dangerous and bring a lot of frustration and other unpleasant feelings. Plus in my experience focusing on how my child might have been or how she might change if I do x, y or z clouds my vision and prevents me from responding in helpful ways in the present to my very real and imperfect child. What brings me peace and helps me grow and respond to my children in helpful and gentle ways is fully accepting both my child and myself just as we are, warts and all, and loving us both just as we are.

Anyway, my children seem to be done playing independently (can you believe it? They do this now, they all go upstairs and play nicely for awhile!) and are asking for my attention.

Bearsmama,









Take care everyone!


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## Bearsmama

Sydnee-Welcome! And-listen to sledg! That's my only advice!







Okay, I put the little laughing, bouncy guy there but I really do MEAN what I say. I ditto all that she wrote about accepting yourself and your kids. So much harder to actually DO than to read or write the words, I know.

And sledg-Again, great words for Syndee.


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## Sydnee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*







Welcome, Sydnee! I don't have lots of time but some thoughts...

BTDT with the temper. So have others here. I am so fine with other people's kids, my relationship with my own children is so much more intense. I think you're pretty normal. And please don't compare yourself to other moms, even your own. You are you, not those other moms. (ETA that there is a thread on yelling that some found helpful, if you'd like to peruse it. It is certainly not the only thread on the subject, it's just the one I remember best. At least you'll see that you aren't the only hot-tempered mama here. Help me stop yelling)

Please do not go down the road of "if only I didn't do this, my child might be "normal." For one thing, you cannot ever know. For another, "if only" is a fantasy while the child you've got right in front of you-just as she is-is reality. The "if only"s are dangerous and bring a lot of frustration and other unpleasant feelings. Plus in my experience focusing on how my child might have been or how she might change if I do x, y or z clouds my vision and prevents me from responding in helpful ways in the present to my very real and imperfect child. What brings me peace and helps me grow and respond to my children in helpful and gentle ways is fully accepting both my child and myself just as we are, warts and all, and loving us both just as we are.

Anyway, my children seem to be done playing independently (can you believe it? They do this now, they all go upstairs and play nicely for awhile!) and are asking for my attention.

Bearsmama,









Take care everyone!

Huh, noone has ever put it that way, I guess I do sooo much of that "what-if" crap, that it definately clouds what I should be doing.







Thank you for that!! It really has me thinking..

And thank you for the welcome, Bearsmama!


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## MsMoMpls

Hey everyone, it is so good to see this thread so active. Welcome newbies and good to hear from the "old" crew. I just got back from a fantastic 7 days in Mexico on what feels like the ultimate AP vacation. We went with my dad and his girlfriend and my mother-in-law. Paul and I got to share one big room, two big beds with the boys so actually got to co-sleep the whole family for the first time. We had so much togetherness... I almost went out of my fricking mind.









Honestly, I don't know how you SAHMs do it. I missed daycare Vickie so much. I got no break. No matter who is there, if momma is there, only momma will do. And you know, it seems like at some point they would get their fill of me but NO! it never gets there.

Believe me it was wonderful but even though my two are pretty easy, I am worn out by them. I bow to those of you doing more than one when your child is spirited.

So- funny story. Tonight Nate (for the newbies Nate is my 21 yr old son who was/is highly challenging in every way... and I deserve a metal that he is alive and well today.) and I got into a heated discussion about my parenting style and he let me know that he doesn't think I was hard enough on him and need to be tougher on his brothers. Ok... you just can't win. I know that isn't true- he is just living with a 3 year old for the first time and his patience is tested daily. But I did think that it was pretty amusing that he gives me the same bull that my family did about him. I think I did get him to see that all I am asking is that he treat his brother with as much respect as he treats his DOG. Oh dear. Children. I strongly recommended (again) double condoms.

Got to go- more later... the new business is booming!

Maureen


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## TEAK's Mom

I just want to swing in and welcome the new mamas. Welcome. This thread does a great deal for my sanity.

Today, I am kind of proud of myself. We started the morning in true Lord of the Flies fashion. All we lacked was a bleeding pig's head on a stick. The screaming had me so much on edge that I was ready to join in. And, I didn't. I stayed calm, worked on meeting everyone's needs and we got through it. It may be the first day in history that got better with a trip to the DMV, though. Grin.

I know that this is not a big deal to most of the world, but just coming through without needing a good cry because I actually did a good job makes me proud.

Maureen. Your trip sounds great, but I do know that feeling. If mama is around, then mama is on duty.

As usual, I have to run before I'm done. Hugs to all.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
We started the morning in true Lord of the Flies fashion. All we lacked was a bleeding pig's head on a stick. It may be the first day in history that got better with a trip to the DMV, though.
















:














:














:







Good for you for surviving it with grace and dignity. That's great!


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## Justine

just had to quickly check in and say that apart from you all being my inspiration you've just given me two lovely laughs - Maureen with your 'double condom' advice and teaks mom with your Lord of the Flies moment.

You all definately raise my spirits and welcome to the new mamas - you'll be so grateful for this thread.

37 weeks and counting and still virtually an invalid with back. Ugh. And this is supposed to be the calm before the storm.........................

Much love


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## emblmrgrl

Welcome Sydnee! Bearsmama is correct... Sledg is a wise, wise mama.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
Today, I am kind of proud of myself. We started the morning in true Lord of the Flies fashion. All we lacked was a bleeding pig's head on a stick. The screaming had me so much on edge that I was ready to join in. And, I didn't. I stayed calm, worked on meeting everyone's needs and we got through it. It may be the first day in history that got better with a trip to the DMV, though. Grin.









I so needed a laugh this morning!

The not yelling is going REALLY well. Even DH is on board (he has less patience after I break down and need him most, lol). So on Friday, I got the letter of all letters from school. Cole spend half his day in the office. It was one thing after another, apparently. He wore his watch to school (not ever been a problem). During Circle Time he took the watch off and was swinging it around (ok, I understand the infraction here). Teacher takes it away from him and put it on her arm (don't agree in the least with that action). He then refused to participate in the rest of Circle Time, stomped his foot & pouted when teacher asked him to join in the dancing. He gets removed from the group. He goes to the bathroom to cry. She sees him peeking out the door and tells him to come out. He did so and slammed the bathroom door far too hard which got him sent to the hall way to sit. She brought him back in for math & snack. After math work was done he got in trouble for rough housing with another student and teacher took away his recess. THEN, when he was sitting out during recess, he got restless, started to roll down the hill and she took him to the office where he spent his afternoon.

I went to the principal Monday morning and got nowhere. When I expressed disapproval with removing his recess and not giving him work (who expects a 5 y/o to sit for 30 mins doing nothing? Hello, have you met my son?!) she said to me "Well, he's gonna have to learn to sit still at some point!". I left feeling that it doesn't matter what will help him, they just want him to fit the mold. I'm spent, ladies. I'm now looking into home schooling next year, if this gets no better. Never thought that I would be good at that, really, but hey... don't know that I'd be worse than what he's got.

Ok, needed more of a vent than I realized.


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## Bearsmama

Okay, like I needed another sign that you are all truly MY PEOPLE.
TEAKS & Maureen-Lord of the Flies references? And birth control suggestions? Man, it makes my day.


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- so last night after I posted... I got into it seriously with my own mother. She called to complain about my sister's parenting which I consider punative and harsh. When I tried to talk to my mother about how hard it is to help people parent by judging them, and tried to get her on board for just loving and accepting my sister- it turned on me. She started talking about how little she agrees with my parenting- how Nate was spoiled and now Joey is spoiled and it is all about me not taking care of myself and being so inconsistent and how this is just about how much she loves me!!!!

We turned that conversation around pretty well and by the end I felt ok... not great but my mother is never going to change and has no memory of her own struggles as a mother.

Then I got into it with DH who attacked my housekeeping skills. I kept asking him if he knew me before we got married. Wow! Off the wall. Terrible fight about nothing and everything and I cried for hours... I never do that. But touched out and my mother and then him.

So this morning we went to Joey's preschool screening and he was pretty uncooperative and I took it way too seriously and personally and somewhere in the testing started thinking about military school and time-outs and...

Ok- luckily my dear care-giver talked some sense into me and reminded me that he isn't even 4, that we just got back from vacation, that he is a joy to be around and is great at play groups and has a wonderful imagination...

How do other mom's handle this? I have more mothering experience, higher self confidence and more education than almost any mother on the planet and I almost threw out everything I believe about GD all over one bad day. Aurgh!







: I just can't believe how hard it is to be a mom. I want a metal.

Thanks so very much for being there for me. I know you all understand just how insane it can be.

Maureen


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## Sydnee

[ I just can't believe how hard it is to be a mom. I want a metal.

Thanks so very much for being there for me. I know you all understand just how insane it can be.

Maureen[/QUOTE]

I LOVE this quote!! That is me, It's hard when as a mom, we don't get the positive feedback from other people like one might get from a job. We don't get yearly "reviews", or raises. Man wouldn't THAT be nice!!







Hey, today I didn't yell, which means I get a .25 raise, woohoo!!!









Anyway, I totally agree.


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## Magella

Maureen,







Experience, self-confidence and education are so wonderful but it's too bad they don't make one immune to stress, hurt feelings and frustration. It really is so tough to be a mom. I think you do deserve a medal.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, man, what IS IT about the universe? Why are we all here today kvetching about our current troubles? Does this mean our childrean conspire against us AND with each other to make our lives almost intolerable at the exact SAME moments?







:

Maureen-First,







Then, I think even if we all were the most educated, self-confident, little baggage people who had tremedous resources and knowledge, it would still be HARD. I am not one to like the term "job" when referring to being a mom (or SAHM). I think it belittles and undervalues the real WORK involved. So, let's just call it WORK. Even my friends that have low-maintenance children are often overwhelmed with trying to meet their own needs and the needs of their children. Even my friends who WOTH (and they are the majority) are overwhelmed by the needs of their kids. So certainly, these moments are not just relegated to those of us who stay home.

I haven't had a true Lord of the Flies day in a while. Yes, there have been bad moments. Bad mornings, bad afternoons. But today was just ugly. And it wasn't even my kids "fault". Really. It was ME. It was ALLLLLLL ME. And that's tough to admit, but today I can. I yelled for no good reason, I was a bit mean for no reason (okay, there were the normal "reasons"). But my punishments did not fit their crimes. Today, I just sooooo didn't want to be a mama. Is that a horrible thing to say? I wanted someone else to be the mama. Anyone. Just not me. Every once and while, a day comes along, and I'm just so plain old tired of cleaning yogurt off the wood floors, or of changing an 18 mos. old's explosive poopies, or of reminding my older son of the same rules over and over and over again. Or of fixing meals that aren't eaten. OR, my personal favorite: Sick of not being able to wipe my butt in private. Of course, this list could go on and on and on.

So, sometimes, it's not about the challenging child. It's about the challengs of being a mom. Plain and simple. It's about the normal, mundane, annoyances. The yearning for a moment alone. The memories of a quiet house. Please, someone, tell me you have these days. And, I know this is a special forum b/c I did not feel the need to say, "I love my kids, but..." before all that. You guys get that. That we all love our kids. That's not the issue. Everything else is the issue.

Anyway, wishing you all better days tomorrow. And Maureen, it's always so refreshing to read your posts. You are at in the middle of the madness of rasing these two little guys, while getting it on the other end from your big guy. No, you can't win!









A professor of mine in college had this hanging over her desk: There is no finish line. She had run a marathon and during it she looked at one of the banners and that's what it said. Seems to sum it all up.

Many hugs to all of you.


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## Bearsmama

TEAAAAAAAKS-Forty lashes with a wet noodle for me. I really did mean to give you props and hugs for staying sane in the middle of the insanity.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I think even if we all were the most educated, self-confident, little baggage people who had tremedous resources and knowledge, it would still be HARD.

So, sometimes, it's not about the challenging child. It's about the challengs of being a mom. Plain and simple. It's about the normal, mundane, annoyances. The yearning for a moment alone. The memories of a quiet house. Please, someone, tell me you have these days.









So true.
And yes, I have those days. I wouldn't actually believe any mother who said she didn't have those days. There are days when I feel as though if I hear "Mommy?" one more time I am going to explode from the frustration of not having a single quiet moment to even think clearly. It's those days when every time I try to walk, there's a little person suddenly under my feet (it's uncanny). It's starting several tasks and not completely finishing a single one. It's a thousand little things every day. It's just hard.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Today, I just sooooo didn't want to be a mama. Is that a horrible thing to say? I wanted someone else to be the mama. Anyone. Just not me. Every once and while, a day comes along, and I'm just so plain old tired of cleaning yogurt off the wood floors, or of changing an 18 mos. old's explosive poopies, or of reminding my older son of the same rules over and over and over again. Or of fixing meals that aren't eaten. OR, my personal favorite: Sick of not being able to wipe my butt in private. Of course, this list could go on and on and on.









Oh yes. There are often days when I want someone to mother me, to make the decisions for me, to do the work for me. There are also days when my heart's strongest desire is to become a hermit in the woods for a couple of weeks. You know, I never knew that tampon usage was a spectator sport until I had kids. And I don't like it. I get tired of seeing a kid coming over with their naked butt in the air asking if their butt is clean after pooping. I get tired of every surface in my home feeling sticky no matter how much I work to keep them from being sticky. I hate having sticky hands.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And it wasn't even my kids "fault". Really. It was ME. It was ALLLLLLL ME. And that's tough to admit, but today I can. I yelled for no good reason, I was a bit mean for no reason (okay, there were the normal "reasons").

I have so btdt. So much of the time it's more about me than my kids. I mean, they do normal annoying kid stuff (and to be sure those extra little challenging behaviors are no fun) but much of the time the really tough days and the tough interactions are _all me_-I don't realize I need to eat, I haven't had enough water, I'm tired, I'm PMSing, I'm worried about finances, I'm worried about the state of the world, I'm wishing things were different, I'm focused on the future/past, I'm evaluating how good/bad a mother I am, whatever. It all impacts how I'm interacting with my kids unless I am aware of it, aware that it's impacting how I react, and taking care of myself.

Do any of you find that you are sort of constantly in a hurry without really realizing it? Every once in awhile when I'm getting frustrated and edgy and I'm snapping at my kids, I realize that I'm rushing-and usually for no reason. It could be Saturday and we have no plans to even get dressed, but I ask my kids to do something and I'm wanting them to do it right this instant. Or we're getting ready to bring kids to school and we have plenty of time-we'll be so early if we leave right now-but I'm rushing and rushing my kids and soon we're all frustrated and cranky. I'm in a hurry about stupid things, at stupid times, and it totally affects how I interact with my kids. It keeps us from having fun, it keeps me from focusing on anything, it keeps me from being connected with my kids and aware of what they're saying/feeling/doing/needing. And the stupidest part is that I cannot figure out why I'm in a hurry-I just am, for no apparent reason. It's a habit. Once I realize I'm in a hurry for no reason, for that moment I can stop being in a hurry. The problem is realizing it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
A professor of mine in college had this hanging over her desk: There is no finish line. Seems to sum it all up.

Wow. Again, so true. So easy to forget.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-























I love what you say about getting tired of every single surface being sticky. That's one of mine. That and everything being out of place-everything needing to be touched and pulled out of drawers, off shelves, etc. Like, why are the scissors out? Nobody is cutting anything. Why is there a ruler, or boxer shorts, or stuffed animals on the dining room table? Sounds silly, I know.

And about mothering the mother-this is a big one for me. My mother died years ago, and I still want someone to walk through the door and ask "How can I help you?", and mean it. I think that we have to learn to mother ourselves. But this is a HUGE lesson, I think. Especially for those of us who have any baggage (I think I might actually have luggage at this point!







). I read a book years ago called Becoming Your Own parent. And I remember there being some visualization exercises in it about thinking of your own a mother figure coming to you and holding you or something lilke that (sounds strange, I know, and possible stuff for another thread). But I think all mothers would benefit from this kind of stuff-not just those that of us who have lost a mother.

And YES, sledg-I do find myself being in a hurry for no reason. I find myself rushing for no reasobn (nak). Although with us, and Bear's clothing issues, by the time he is satisfied with his outfit, or socks, or whatever, we usually HAVE to rush.

Sorry, gtg, little guy wants to have a nursing marathon. I have more thoughts to share, but more later. Hope you all have a sane day.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
That and everything being out of place-everything needing to be touched and pulled out of drawers, off shelves, etc. Like, why are the scissors out? Nobody is cutting anything. Why is there a ruler, or boxer shorts, or stuffed animals on the dining room table?

Oh, oh, oh!!!! Yes, I can't stand that!!! WHY does *everything* have to be taken out? And weird things in weird places. I can never seem to find anything, because it's all been moved and there's a constant clutter of unused things that have been taken out.

Hmmm. Maybe this Becoming Your Own Parent book will have to go on my list. I still have my mom, and she lives very nearby and she does help a bit with the kids but she doesn't mother me-not in the way I want and need to be mothered, yk? I'm sorry for your loss. I think you're right about mothers needing to be mothered and needing to learn to mother ourselves.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And YES, sledg-I do find myself being in a hurry for no reason. I find myself rushing for no reasobn (nak). Although with us, and Bear's clothing issues, by the time he is satisfied with his outfit, or socks, or whatever, we usually HAVE to rush.









Aha! That's in part where my rushing habit came from. Dd has largely outgrown the hellish getting dressed problems and getting dressed has been going pretty well for awhile, but I remember well those days. We, too, were often (always?) running late and having to rush by the time she was finally ready to go. Man, I hated getting her out the door to preschool (or anywhere else, but getting to school on time in the morning was the worst). I was often a screaming banshee by the time we left. The second year of preschool was better, because she went in the afternoon-so she had allllll morning to get dressed. We just had to start getting snowpants and boots on a half hour before leaving.







"They feel funny! Put my gloves inside my sleeve! My underwear feels funny! My socks don't feel good! (kicks off boots or throws boots at mom and lays down on floor)" Oh, the memories....


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## TEAK's Mom

I think that they must actually have a secret network where they plan those days. I can just see the posts: "have you tried sticky surfaces?" "how about peeing on the floor?" "random screaming has worked well for us" Sorry, got carried away. Grin.

As usual, I am nodding along. What I wanted was just for someone to take care of me for a while. My mother is alive, well, and is very kind to me. But, she does live 900 miles away. Honestly, I never really let her mother me as a child, so now it would seem weird. Looks like I need to add to my reading list, too.

As always, gtg before I finish typing...


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## Sydnee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
I think that they must actually have a secret network where they plan those days. I can just see the posts: "have you tried sticky surfaces?" "how about peeing on the floor?" "random screaming has worked well for us" Sorry, got carried away. Grin.

As usual, I am nodding along. What I wanted was just for someone to take care of me for a while. My mother is alive, well, and is very kind to me. But, she does live 900 miles away. Honestly, I never really let her mother me as a child, so now it would seem weird. Looks like I need to add to my reading list, too.

As always, gtg before I finish typing...









So true, so true!! I am amazed at how it takes me a couple hours to organize the toyu room, and withing seconds it has gone to heck.







I give up on that part.









I am lucky to have my mom very close by, and she is always willing to babysit if we need her too. But I think that she tries to not intervene, unless asked, which is fine, but sometimes I wish she would pop out a suggestion for me too.


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## Magella

Wanna hear something weird?

About 3-4 weeks ago, we gave away our 3 cats. We got the first two cats nearly 4 years ago, shortly after we moved to this house. We got the third cat about a year and a half ago. The cats were miserable, no matter what we did they did their "business" around the house instead of the litter box, they were skittish as can be...it just seemed too stressful for them to live in this noisy home with three rambunctious kids (the vet agreed). So off they went, and.....

within 3 days of the cats' leaving and our starting to deep clean, 90% of my challenging dd's facial tics disappeared (I mean, every muscle in her face was going, and then it just stopped for no apparent reason-I've been over and over it and other than the cats there just were no changes in life). She stopped saying she didn't want to go to school every morning, and just the other day she ran off to catch up with a friend without even kissing me goodbye. Today she was really tired (coughing kept her up late because she has a cold) but she still got dressed and went to school without saying she didn't want to go. Despite having a cold and coughing a lot last night, for the first time in the 4 years we've been in this house she has not been coughing until she pukes at bedtime. I mean, every time this kid had a cold it was two weeks of coughing until puking when she lays down to sleep, and then coughing all night after that. She's had a cold for a week now, no puking. (Of course tonight'll be the night...) She and her brother fight normally, but there's a lot less fighting, a lot less aggression and a lot more playing-playing with laughter, with joy, with sparkle.
It's weird.

This child has hated school so much that I've been considering homeschooling next year. So seriously have I considered it that I've been trying to meet homeschoolers in the area, I've been researching, I've been losing sleep worrying about it (even though we don't have to decide anything anytime soon). I even decided to talk to dd about it (which I hesitated to do in case she said "YES! Can I stay home NOW?") and.......she wants to stay in school. Even though she misses me when she's there. Even though it's noisy (have I ever mentioned how much noise sets her off?). [So, as an aside, now I'm really torn because after all this thinking about homeschooling I'm thinking of how wonderful it might be (might!) but my child has other ideas.]

So, I'm thinking....maybe she was allergic to the cats.









Or it could be that I am so relieved and relaxed to not be dealing with the cats' issues that it makes that much of a difference to dd. But I'm not convinced of that. I'm relieved, but I don't think I'm that relieved. Who knows.

Or maybe she's just had some huge internal changes-developmental spurt of some kind, or finally reaching some kind of comfort level with everything. Something she can't articulate or isn't really aware of.

Whatever happened, it's strange.


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## Justine

Sledg,

Am really pleased to hear your good news since the cats have gone. It does sound as if it there was a possible allergy there - I guess you'll just have to see how things continue.

What I cheekily wanted to pick your brains about (which is OT to this challenging child thread) was the pukey cough thing. How do you deal with them??

DS had one in December and after waiting and waiting for it to run it's course we succumbed to antibiotics which wasn't really what we wanted to do. Now, only weeks later he has had another one for 3-4 weeks and it's been good days and bad days, but the cough just hasn't shifted. He's puked up a couple of times but night-times are particularly hard because I am literally watching him all night ready to sit him up when he coughs so he doesn't vomit and swallow it back. I don't get much sleep and at 38 weeks preggers it aint good!

We've tried home-remedies such as herbal teas, eucalyptus chest rubs, essential oils on pillows, watching diet etc etc - some days it seems to have worked but then he just goes back to square one. I really, really don't want to take him to docs just to be given antibiotics again - but am getting concerned about how long it is taking to clear. Just wondered what you thought with you being a wise old owl.

Hi to everyone else - not long to go until new baby - 38 weeks - still got horrible back problem but Granny is still here which is a godsend.

Love to you all


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## Magella

Justine, years ago we took our dd to the doc for a long-lasting pukey cough. The doc said it was the result of post-nasal drip, and sometimes these things take a long time to clear up. This was the routine for, like I said, years. We always suspected maybe an allergy, but didn't figure out what it might be. The doctor didn't seem to buy the allergy thing, but did sugget antihistamines to dry her up. My dh also had these kinds of coughs as a young child, lots of croup, lots of mucousy lungs. So some of it seems to possibly be inherited.

But, as I said, since the cats are gone she's for the first time not having such a terrible pukey cough. My bet is that her colds were complicated by an allergy that we didn't really notice when she wasn't sick.

What did seem to help her through these coughs before was using a humidifier, clapping on her back to loosen anything up that might actually be in her lungs (but it was mostly post-nasal drip that caused the coughing, and she swallowed most of it-it was mucous that she would always puke up, well, along with anything else that happened to be in there), and sitting in a steamy bathroom. The biggest help was to sleep semi-sitting, propped up on pillows-laying down makes the cough worse, wheras sitting up eases it. Kids' echinacea seems to help sometimes.

I have often heard that it's "normal" for coughs to sometimes last 3-4 weeks, and that sometimes coughs that last this long indicate possible asthma or allergies.







Everyone seems to say something different. And I was interested to find out that not all bronchitis (which is what docs often give antibiotics for with a long-lasting cough) are bacterial infections, they can be viral and if they're viral obviously antibiotics are ineffective.

HTH. Those coughs are really difficult and unpleasant.


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## TEAK's Mom

slegd: Whatever it is, I hope it lasts! It's weird the way these things happen...

I so remember those coughs as a kid. I once got a concussion from coughing so hard that my head hit the headboard of my bed that hard. One other thing that helps is to keep a thermos of something warm next to the bed to sip. It really helps to sit up and take a small drink of something soothing; kind of breaks the cycle.


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## Justine

thanks for the reply sledg - yes, I have often pondered about the allergy thing. i know what you mean about different people saying different things and also when you read up on coughs it can be quite conflicting info. I will try some of the things you've suggested to see if they help. I do keep him propped up if I can for a lot of the night. The thought of being on 'cough-watch' and a brand new baby makes me take a weary sigh ;-)

Teaks mum - good idea re: thermos - may just do that too, thanks.

Catch up again soon


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas!
Sledg-Weird about the cats. I would say that there HAS to be a relationship. But WHATEVER it is, just take it and run! I'm so happy that there are changes afoot for your daughter and family. Maybe she's "maturing out" of some of the challenging behaviors.

Bears (and I'm knocking on wood when I say this) seems to be in a good spot lately. He seems to be maturing in little ways. The other morning the shirt he wanted to wear was in the wash, and he didn't FREAK out. In fact, he was okay with it. Weird. My DH and I just look at each other in those moments, like, "HUH?". He's been loving school lately, too. We're seeing the psych. on a semi-regular basis (he's very booked-so we go when we can). He's a nationally recognized expert on ADD/ADHD, but he is very straight up about the fact that 4 yo is way too young (in his opinion) to "diagnose" a child. But we are working on encouraing the good behavior and trying to help him have some internal controls.

Oh, and here's a GRRRRR moment. Don't know if you've experienced this. Well, it seems that now my entire family thinks that Bears has some sort of horrible illness. My brother always asks in a tentative voice,"How's Bears?". And my sister called this morning (she has no children) and asked very inquisitively about how Bears was doing. It seems like you mamas, and my close friends are the only ones who GET IT. He's not disabled! He's not an incorrigable kid. He's a healthy, fun, smart, loving kid. He just happens to have some issues. Geez. It's like some people would deal better if you just ignored your kids problems and let the world deal with it later. gRRRRRRR.







:







:







:

Anyway, GTG, I'm already running late for Bears. Justine-Bears goes through periods with a cough. aNd yes, sometimes it does last for 2-3 weeks. Humidifier, humidifier, humidifier! I know it really helps us.

Hi TEAKS!







More later, ladies.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Don't know if you've experienced this. Well, it seems that now my entire family thinks that Bears has some sort of horrible illness. My brother always asks in a tentative voice,"How's Bears?". And my sister called this morning (she has no children) and asked very inquisitively about how Bears was doing. It seems like you mamas, and my close friends are the only ones who GET IT. He's not disabled! He's not an incorrigable kid. He's a healthy, fun, smart, loving kid. He just happens to have some issues.

Yeah. I made the mistake some time back of confiding in my mom about my suspicions about my dd-that she had some quirks that were not quite typical, that maybe she had some bit of SID, that maybe some OT would help, that I was a little worried about kindergarten and how she'd cope, and several other little niggling things like dd's ability to cope and her emotional maturity/resiliency. For a looooooooong time after that it was "how *is* she?" every time I talked to my mom-as if she were indeed diseased. I started getting freaked out by my mom's freaking out, and that's when I decided not to talk about it with her anymore. I didn't mention it to my inlaws more than once, because the first and only time I ever mentioned to my mil that I was worried she was visibly _completely_ freaked out-as if I'd said "oh, did I mention her brain fell out the other day and now she's completely disabled?" I never once said that my dd wasn't normal and bright and wonderful, just that I was concerned that she had a few issues or difficulties that many other kids don't seem to have and that I wanted to help her with them.

I'm glad you're in a good phase with Bears. Knock on wood. We always qualify our "she's doing well" comments with "for now. It's a good phase."


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## TEAK's Mom

Wow, I really think we all live parallel lives here. I remember mentioning to MIL that TEAK's former daycare provider thought that she might have Aspergers (even though I was pretty sure she didn't) and all of a sudden it was as if she ceased to be kid and became a possible diagnosis. And, remember my MIL is a pediatrician. Yikes. It took some time to undo some of that damage.

And, we always qualify good times with "we're in a good phase," too. It is kind of cool that we're all in one at the same time. I think we deserve a small party.







Who's coming to Alaska for curry?


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## Magella

Did you say curry?







I love curry!


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## TEAK's Mom

You better believe it. I've been learning Indian cooking and, if I do say so myself, I'm getting pretty good. I'll start roasting spices and stuffing the samosas...


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-Please don't tell me that you like Indian food. And please don't tell me that you're learning to cook and experiment with Indian food. This would mean we really ARE CYBER SISTERS!!!!!!!







Is there anyway that you could have been born in a suburban Philly hospital?

Seriously. We ADORE Indian food. And I make a mean cauliflower curry. I am also just just delving in to small, vegetarian cookbook that I have. I'm planning on making a small feast from it one of these days. WEIRD.

Oh, sledg-I loved what you said about your DD's "brain falling out". This is completely how I feel about my IL's and sibling's responses lately. My ILs have to point out every time they are with Bears that they see him "really changing", like the thought of him having any issues at all or even admitting it, is just unfathomable. I really think that with the ILS (and this is a completely separate conversation) prefer for their family to keep their issues to themselves. And that I have just wrecked that program for them!









Oh, and me mentioning Aspergers was a potential possibility I think almost gave my FIL a heart attack. Once I emailed my MIL some information about something we were going through with Bears and the first psychologist, and she literally wrote back and said something like, "You've already mentioned this to me". Like, don't REPEAT it, WOMAN!

Anyway, just checking in before bed, mamas. Hope you all have a great weekend. TEAKS-We're supposed to get about 5 inches of snow on Sunday and people are already flocking to the grocery store. I bet you find this very funny. One would think that Philadphia was not, in fact, in the northeast!


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears: The only thing saving us is that I was born in a mormon hospital in Salt Lake City (don't ask. Dad was a medical student and they were broke). But otherwise...dunno. It's pretty scary.









Why is it that the idea that something could be different about our children that causes such chagrin? If we, their mamas, can accept and keep working, why do grandparents who have such a smaller stake freak out so much? I mean, seriously, we pick up TEAK's brain, dust it off, and put it back in all the time.


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## Bearsmama

Hey TEAKS-I know, Bear's brain fell out just this morning. I think it's still out, though. When he's in one of these moods he won't let us help him put it back in!







:

Seriously, ladies, WHY oh WHY did I ever say that we were in a "better place" last week??? Why??? Yesterday into today has been HELLISH. Funny that it was a full moon last night (okay, I'm not usually one to blame it on the moon, but sometimes you gotta find the connections somewhere).
When Bears is like this, no sticker chart for cooperation, or major incentives for cooperating will help. All the things that would help just a little when Bears is being sort of OKAY. But when his emotions get so outta hand, like they were this morning, it seems like nothing will help him. No amount of compassion or tough-love, consequence or love will help. We've tried it ALL ladies.

I feel remotely confident in my parenting when Bears is in an OKAY spot. But when things get to this crescendo, this height of craziness, even if I know that eventually (maybe in a week, a day?) we'll be back to sort of being okay, I can't fathom how to parent him. CAN'T FATHOM IT.

Paging Maureen?????? Do you remember Nate going through these emotional slumps? It's like we see all aspects of his personality and being change before our eyes. I know he's only 4, and I know the doc says we can't/shouldn't try to diagnose him now, but this seems so stereotypically bi-polar. Like we go through this okay time, and then WHAM, they'll be no precipitator (is that a word??), and he'll look a bit different, and his emotions are overwhelming him at every turn. Anyone else go through this?

Man, it's just hard. B/c when he's like this it affects EVERYTHING IN our lives. It affects how I relate to him, how I parent him, what we do with our day, how much fun we have, etc., etc.

Thanks, as always, for letting me share.


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## WuWei

I have been lurking for a while, but haven't read all of the thread. I wanted to mention that Bach's flower remedies help when nothing else will. There is *Rescue Remedy* for acute upsets or in anticipation of something unsettling, huge transitions, that sort of thing. These help our highly sensitive son when he is overwhelmed and past the point of tired. For anger outbursts, there is *Cherry Plum* for 'feeling out of control, or aggressive'. *Elm* helps me when I 'feel temporarily overwhelmed with responsibilities'. *Beech* helps 'to have more tolerence for other people's imperfections'.

Here is a link about selecting the correct homeopathic remedy:

Welcome to Ainsworths Bach Flower Remedy Finder. This effective self-medication programme has been designed to help you choose the most important Bach ...
http://www.ainsworths.com/remedy/default.aspx - 27k - similar pages

Bach flower remedies In addition you will find personalized treatment advice using our step-by-step ... Bach flower remedies use extracts from the flowering parts of plants to ... http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshel...25,673,00.html - 31k - similar pages

HTH, Pat


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## Magella

Quote:

I mean, seriously, we pick up TEAK's brain, dust it off, and put it back in all the time.










Bearsmama,







My dd tends to go in some kind of cycle. We've been having a great few weeks (since the cats left) but then things began heading south in a big way on Thursday night-then on into Friday, Saturday and yesterday. I was thinking "great, opened my big mouth about how great things have been and now look..." But you know, on Tuesday and Wednesday we had ice cream with hot fudge sauce (the conventional kind with preservatives and nasties). Then on Thursday my mom came over and baked chocolate chip cookies-not homemade, but the kind you buy and break into individual pieces and pop in the oven (full of nasties and preservatives). So.....of course! Foods totally affect my dd. Specifically, foods with dyes and preservatives. And possibly corn syrup. So normally we just avoid that stuff, only having it occasionally. But this week there was too much-sometimes we get lax, everything's been good and we get a little less vigilant. Oh, and there were snacks at school containing that stuff too. Saturday at Grandma's she ate something that gave her a rash around her mouth, we haven't yet figured out which food it was...everything she ate that day she'd eaten before. Whatever food it was that gave her the rash probably contributed to the mood. Took us awhile to figure out that food mattered so much, and usually we're good about what she eats. But it only takes a little, or one too many, or two days in a row.... We used to think there was no precipitating factor, we know now that it is, it's just sort of subtle in a way.

Oh, and today is a really good day. I'm betting the problem was the chocolate chip cookies more than anything else. But who knows. Now it's out of her system, whatever it was, and she's fine.

I agree with Pat that Rescue Remedy might be worth a try. Sometimes when dd is having a really bad day (stress is a factor for her too, in addition to food) we use homeopathic chamomilla as well. Just to help her relax. Sometimes mom needs it too. It helps.

ETA Bearsmama, have you ever read _The Highly Sensitive Child_? This describes my dd perfectly. She's sensitive to everything: food, moods, stress, clothes, molecular changes in the air, minute changes in the energy field of the universe.... It's the sensitivity, I think, that leads to a lot of her moods and behaviors. If you haven't read it, you might be interested in checking it out. I think the author, Elain Aron, has a website too.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
I think that they must actually have a secret network where they plan those days. I can just see the posts: "have you tried sticky surfaces?" "how about peeing on the floor?" "random screaming has worked well for us" Sorry, got carried away. Grin.

That is too funny









Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
As usual, I am nodding along. What I wanted was just for someone to take care of me for a while. My mother is alive, well, and is very kind to me. But, she does live 900 miles away. Honestly, I never really let her mother me as a child, so now it would seem weird. Looks like I need to add to my reading list, too.

My mother is far away and not exactly the nurturing type. Our relationship has got a lot better in the past couple of years and I do appreciate her but having her around makes me more tired







She's just not a restful person.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

Paging Maureen?????? Do you remember Nate going through these emotional slumps? It's like we see all aspects of his personality and being change before our eyes. I know he's only 4, and I know the doc says we can't/shouldn't try to diagnose him now, but this seems so stereotypically bi-polar. Like we go through this okay time, and then WHAM, they'll be no precipitator (is that a word??), and he'll look a bit different, and his emotions are overwhelming him at every turn. Anyone else go through this?

I have been lurking- I am supposed to be working on my new business. That and the minute that I do get on the computer, Joey says it is his turn.

Funny thing is right now Nate is in a funk. I haven't lived with him in two years and he has changed a lot during that time- for the better. But when he gets moody and sad, I get so scared. It brings up all the old stuff. He broke up with his girlfriend and although it was very mutual, he is reeling. I suspect that whatever she said about why is hitting him hard. Don't quite know, he is being a bit closed mouth. Not like most people tell their mommies everything about their love lifes.

So- when I was active in the Tourettes parenting group we would talk about neurological storms that you could feel coming on and do absolutely nothing about. I agree that the hardest thing is figuring out how to parent when they are clearly out of control. There was a point where I just figured all we could do was survive the storm and clean up the messes afterward. I did find that taking myself out of the mix was usually the best- I would put myself on a time-out. Nate hated it if I left him, that was about the only consequence I could use. If he was being violent or raging I would say if you can't pull yourself together, I am going to leave (go upstairs when he was little and actually leave the house when he got older.) Sometimes he could and often he couldn't for awhile. It was hard for him to be raging without an audience. However, since he needed to somehow get his anger out of his system, it did seem like blowing up made him feel better.

Have you tried giving Bears ways to be really naughty that you can control? I have used this with other kids- didn't work with Nate. Things like tearing up all the newspapers, punching bags, beating up playdough, yelling (this is great on the freeway- have everyone yell as loud as they can, for as long as they can... mommies too.) If there is something naughty that he is drawn to- I am sure you know these things... maybe getting in front of him and asking him to do it so that he can feel better. Maybe even asking him to yell at you, call you naughty names... if you ask him to do it, you will feel more in control and be able to take it.

As for the diagnosis... Nate was clearly bipolar, no questions. However, he isn't anymore. And that isn't supposed to happen. So as much as diagnoses are tempting, they don't give you much. The diagnosis led us to using mood stabalizers and Depakote was wonderful for years. It took the anger edge off. It is hard on your body and not completely safe but it worked.

My heart is with you... having a child out of control is so horrible. And how are you supposed to feel in control when he isn't.

Joey, who is the same age as Bears is going through prebirthday intensity. Very needy, very intense. As I watch my reaction to his intensity, I see how hard this must have been with Nate when I was so young and felt inadequate as a mom. I am so confident now and still have a hard time not over-reacting. If figure Zach is going to get the good parenting- once we get past the first two, I should be just about ready for sainthood.

Good luck to all, love this thread.

Maureen


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## Magella

Maureen, thank you so much for being willing to share so much about mothering your children. It is so helpful.

Tonight I want to share this piece of a story I read today, because it so sums up the struggle I have with my challenging one. This mother is talking about the struggles she's having with her very spirited child and she says "I love Amanda so much. But, I guess, I love her the way I wish for her to be, not the way she is...I want to love her the way she is and I can't." To which the author of the book responds "What's in the way is only your own thought." The rest of the conversation is about what fears the mother has that prevent her from loving her child as she is and how the mother can learn to see differently and learn to let go of the fears. And later, there's some description of how as the mother learned to love her daughter as she is rather than as how she wanted her to be, most of their problems vanished. (From _Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves_ by Naomi Aldort







: my name is sledg and I have an addiction to books)

This is my struggle!! This is how I feel, and though it's getting better it's still a struggle. But it is so true that as I have come to love my child as she is, to accept her as she is, rather than fighting against who she is, so many of our problems have eased. (Part of it is her maturity too, it seems that there is nothing simple about mothering, no simple explanations.)


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
"But, I guess, I love her the way I wish for her to be, not the way she is...I want to love her the way she is and I can't." To which the author of the book responds "What's in the way is only your own thought." The rest of the conversation is about what fears the mother has that prevent her from loving her child as she is and how the mother can learn to see differently and learn to let go of the fears. And later, there's some description of how as the mother learned to love her daughter as she is rather than as how she wanted her to be, most of their problems vanished. (From _Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves_ by Naomi Aldort







: my name is sledg and I have an addiction to books)


This is what I try to do in marriage counseling every day... for me, it is the hardest thing about being married, is accepting my husband as he is, not as how I want him to be. Unconditional love is not humanly possible but a lofty goal. I use the image of God- the old man with the beard on a cloud and think- How hard must it be for God to watch me do some of the lame stuff I do- and not say "I told you so" or "What were you thinking?" God, unconditional love, allows for us to learn through our own mistakes, make our own choices and never waivers. I can do that for about 10 minutes at a time, but I am working on more.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Unconditional love is not humanly possible but a lofty goal. I use the image of God- the old man with the beard on a cloud and think- How hard must it be for God to watch me do some of the lame stuff I do- and not say "I told you so" or "What were you thinking?" God, unconditional love, allows for us to learn through our own mistakes, make our own choices and never waivers.

You know, I don't think I agree that unconditional love is actually all that hard to give. I'm beginning to suspect that _I make it hard_, and part of the way I make it hard is by not unconditionally loving and accepting myself: one cannot give what one does not have. Another part of the reason it's hard is harder to explain, so I will use my toddler as an example. I'm pretty sure my toddler loves unconditionally. I do things sometimes or bear news sometimes to which her reaction is some kind of painful feeling, so she expresses her emotions in this vibrant, loud, passionate display that leaves no question in any observer's mind that she is sad or angry or frustrated. When she's done, if she has been listened to, she moves on and in the next moment is bouncing around smiling and hugging me. She feels no shame for expressing her feelings unless I indicate to her that she should feel ashamed of it or afraid of it. She loves me no matter what, just as I am. Even if she's occasionally angry. But I, as a grown up, do fear and feel ashamed of my emotions and expressing emotions. When my child or anyone else does something I don't like, there's the toddler in my who really wants my way and feels angry or sad or frustrated. If that were all, I could cry and talk until I feel heard and I've expressed myself as much as I need to and just move on and get back to hugging my kids and giving them the love they need. But inside me there's also this very moralistic, stern adult who says "whoa! You can't feel that way! That's just bad. And even if you do feel that way, you can't say it. That would be disastrous." That stern voice is the result of probably learning as a child that feelings (and needs and wants) are dangerous and bad. So I'm hating myself or finding something wrong with myself because of normal, human feelings (and needs and wants). And instead of expressing those feelings and taking care of myself by listening to myself and being kind to myself, I'm squashing that down and trying to control myself. That is definitely not unconditionally loving and accepting myself. When it comes to my child, I do feel angry or scared or frustrated because she doesn't do thing the way I wish she would-and I wish she would do those things only because I have a lot of thoughts and expectations that aren't necessarily accurate or appropriate. But instead of just feeling those feelings and listening to them so that I can let go (or it will just fall away on it's own as I recognize what's happening in my mind), I believe the thoughts that give rise to those feelings. I get hung up on them and then I listen to the next thoughts that arise which declare me a bad mother, and to protect myself I direct some of it out onto my child. So it's not only "I'm a bad mom to feel that way," it's also "if I were a good mom, my child wouldn't do that (what she's doing is bad, she's not good enough as is) so I have to find a way to make her do this other thing instead (I have to make her good, that's what good moms do). Then I'll know I'm a good mom." And voila: I'm not loving or accepting my child unconditionally either.

I don't think unconditional love would mean never feeling angry or frustrated, to never feel those thing would be inhuman. Humans feel that stuff, people think the things that result in those feelings. But I think it is possible not to get so hung up on that stuff but to feel it, to recognize it as our own stuff rather than blaming the other, and thus to free ourselves to love and support the other as they make their mistakes and feel their feelings. Does that make any sense?

Is it possible to love unconditionally most of the time? I _do_ think it is, I undonditionally love my dh most of the time (ETA that I believe this is due in part to the fact that I do not sit in judgment of myself as a wife the way I sit in judgment of myself as a mother, and in part to the fact that my husband is a grown adult who gives me plenty of the unconditional love and unconditional acceptance I need along with the support, listening and empathy I need-which is a bundle that would be unfair and inappropriate to ask of children). I go through periods of time when I unconditionally accept and love all of my children, sometimes more and sometimes less-and I always love them deeply. I just haven't progressed so far in my growth and practice of letting go that I unconditionally love and accept my children _most_ of the time. Is it possible to give unconditional love perfectly and constantly, without slipping? Probably not for your average human. But most of the time is fine, I'd wager.

What's interesting is this: I have reached a point where as much as I want to give my children more unconditional love, and as much as I see now how often I am not doing so, I am not beating myself up over it (most days). I understand it a little bit, and I understand that it's going to take practice and time to understand it more and to give more unconditional love. And that's not good or bad. It just is.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I'm catching up on the recent posts. I feel like I haven't checked in for a while.

Still reading, but I'll get back later. Maureen & Sledg-As always, I'm so thankful for your honesty (and Maureen-ditto everything sledg wrote about being thankful that you've been so open about your struggles raising your son).









I am re-reading these little pamphlets I have on parenting (I'll let you know where I got them when I have a chance). One is called, "Reaching for Your Angry Child" and another is called "Listening to Crying". Really well-written and honest stuff. When my little one just keeps crying and I can't figure out why, well, it makes me crazy. And I'm trying to re-learn how to comfort or just be there for my angry Bears. And my angry self.









More later, ladies. I dropped a few f-bombs tonight in front of the kids. Not a good end to the day. Hoping to be able to re-group and fill myself up with some words of wisdom tonight.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, I'm intrigued by the "Listening to Crying" pamphlet you mentioned. Crying really gets to me when I can't figure out why it's happening and/or can't stop it. Despite knowing that all people need to express their emotions, and despite wanting to help my kids do that, I have this terrible discomfort with their angry or crying (or both) displays and I just want to stop it any way I can. Plus, not having learned as a child to express my emotions effectively I have trouble figuring out how to help my kids do it. So when I can't stop it, I get more and more uncomfortable until I'm in that angry trying to protect myself state. Dh is worse, any crying sends him into this sort of panicky state-he gets visibly tense, he is obviously desperate for it to stop, he's more likely to take on a sharp, commanding tone to try to stop the crying. He knows this about himself, and he's trying so hard to change. He's gotten a lot better over the years.

We live in this weird society that is so very uncomfortable with emotional displays, particularly anger and crying of any sort. It's hard to overcome that learning sometimes.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Thought I'd have more time last night to read more and post, but I fell asleep while putting the kids to bed. I must have needed it b/c I fell asleep around 9, and besides getting up to get a drink of water, I was out cold until 7am. Amen to sleep!

Sledg-Hi Friend. I only have a minute, but I wanted to post about the pamphlets. I actually got the recommendation here from someone ages ago. Haven't picked them up in a while, but here's the info. They're from the Parents Leadership Institute. Their # is (650)322-LEAD, or go their website: www.parentleaders.org. I forget which way I requested them. I think they were about $6 for about 4 of them, but I found them really insightful, and honest. It's a pretty substantial pamphlet, though. Not just a few words.

Hopefully I'll have more time to respond later. Man, just realizing more and more that the parenting business really only works when I'm trying to heal myself, not hurt myself, with my choices. If that makes any sense.

Can't wait to get back to you guys later.


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## TEAK's Mom

sledg, I know that exact feeling with crying. I do fine if I understand the reason (i.e. someone is hurt), but if it goes on too long or doesn't make sense to me, I start to get angry about it. I am working very hard to remain calm and sound gentle.

Bears, what you said is so important: "the parenting business really only works when I'm trying to heal myself, not hurt myself, with my choices." I think that so much of our culture doesn't allow for us to learn to value and nurture ourselves. Especially women. The inner monologue that we learn in high school doesn't just go away.

Oops, maple syrup on the pug...


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## Bearsmama

scuba-Thanks for the Bach recommendation. I actually just recently purchased the Rescue Remedy. I've been hearing about it for years, and I've read some other recs. of it here at MDC. I've used herbal remedies in the past, but not this one. The funny thing is that the first time I bought it, I brought it home and put it on the counter. As I was getting it out of the packaging, I knocked the entire bottle onto the floor where it promptly smashed into a million little pieces. I thought, look, I'm trying to R-E-L-A-X here, and I break the darn thing I'm using to help me relax??? What the heck's up with that?

On to sledg-I can't tell you how much your latest big post resonated with me about inconditional love. My theory about unconditional love is that like all other things that have to do with motherhood and parenting, we've been fed a bill of goods. Those words, Unconditional Love, conjure up Hallmark cards, TV commercials, etc. Like, for some reason, we've believed for a long time that unconditional love means never getting angry, never being upset, etc. I think the TRUE meaning of those words are felt only when we have those feelings for ourselves first. I think it's about all that we've talked about here: letting go, taking care of ourselves so we can then better take care of our children. And I definitely think that our children show us and teach us more about UL than we can expect to give to them. Just like you said about your toddler, sledg. If l flip out on the kids, they love me about 30 seconds into it. And it takes me a long time to love myself again.

Oh, and about accepting and loving our kids as they are-this, I believe, is my life's lesson with Bears. I think there are aspects of Bears that are soooo much like me that I can't even acknowledge it yet. Like, I see so much of myself in him. And it's not really a concious thing. Like, certain behaviors make me so nuts or uncomfortable that I can only surmise that either I was EXACTLY like him at this age, or I wasn't ALLOWED to be like him at all. Does that make sense. Sledg-You are so much more eloquent and articulate with expressing your feelings here. I feel that I'm just







tonight with this post!

About crying-Here's an excerpt from Listening to Children: Crying, by Patty Wipfler/Parents Leadership Institute:

*Listening to a crying child is a simple act, quite beneficial to the child, but it's not easy. To be fully present with our children while they recover from their upsets, we parents need times when our thoughts and feelings are heard, too. Our children's strong emotions stir up our own. We have lots to talk about: how difficult it is to be parents, how much we love our children, the things they do that irritate us, our worries, our disappointments, our hopes for them. This is where listening partnerships (agreements between parents to take turns listening fully to each other) can be of help. As we extend our trust to a listener, we understand better how a child trues to extend his trust to us. As we let a listener know how sad and tired we get, we develop more patience with our child's attempts to recover from his troublesome feelings. *

There's much more GREAT stuff in this pamphlet-- this is just small piece.

Gtg, more when I can. Glad to know that the crying is an issue for many of us.


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## Magella

First of all, I have to know....what happened with the maple syrup, TEAKS? I'm envisioning a dog covered in syrup...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I think there are aspects of Bears that are soooo much like me that I can't even acknowledge it yet. Like, I see so much of myself in him. And it's not really a concious thing. Like, certain behaviors make me so nuts or uncomfortable that I can only surmise that either I was EXACTLY like him at this age, or I wasn't ALLOWED to be like him at all. Does that make sense.

That totally makes sense. I have wondered the same thing myself. Started wondering that when for what seemed like no apparent reason I started having so much trouble parenting her-I wondered if my mom and I had the same issues when I was that age, stuff I couldn't really remember on a conscious level. I can't say with any certainty whether or not I was allowed to be like my dd is, but I do rmember as I got older feeling like my parents didn't see or value or know who I really was-only what they wanted me to be. And as time goes by and I learn to look at myself I see that I _am_ a lot like my challenging daughter. And that's both really neat because it helps me think of ways to help her, and really uncomfortable because it means confronting and accepting these things in myself. But the more I accept myself and understand how my mind works and become aware of all the thoughts and assumptions in there and how I allow them to govern me and learn to be compassionate with myself, the easier it is to accept and love my kids just as they are.

Thanks for posting that excerpt from the pamphlet. That's really helpful.

GTG, I've been focusing on the kids all morning and now that I'm doing something on my own they're begging for attention and continuing on is hopeless. Plus I have to pick up my little guy at preschool soon. Take care, all! Hope the pug is clean.


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## TEAK's Mom

Don't worry about the pug. It was a lot of syrup, but her brother pug licked off a good quantity and then we played groomer and gave both of them a bath. Both girls love rubbing in the doggy shampoo. If you ever want a dog who is amazing with children, I highly reccomend the pug. They are sweet, social, gentle, and the best comic relief in three states. And, no food EVER reaches the floor.


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-Just had to chime in quickly here and tell you that although I don't own a dog, I LOVE PUGS. I've said to DH for a few years that when we get a dog it will be a pug. I've stopped pug owners on the street just to pet them and talk to their owners about how they are with kids. Good to know that you're having such a good experience with them, too. We have an old cat who is just generally annoyed with the chaos that the children make throughout the house. When they're older, I would love to have a pug or two!

Oh, and do I need to say that it's just plain WEIRD the similarities in some of this stuff, TEAKS???

More when I can, ladies.


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, it is scary. Fun though. If only you lived a little closer. What's a thousand miles here and there? I would love to have friends who have some understanding of what it is like to parent my kids.


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## Magella

Sooo, you mean if I get a pug my floors won't be covered in crumbs and bits of dried meat that I forgot to pick up before collapsing into bed? Hmmmmm..........

Glad to hear the pug is clean. It sounds like the whole maple syrup incident turned into a fun time!


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## kayjayjay

Hello all. I've been lurking around this thread for a while and I just wanted to subscribe and introduce myself. Several of you gave me some good support a few weeks ago when I was struggling with my challenging DD, and I just can't tell you how much good it does me to know I'm not the only one going through this. I can relate to so much of what you're discussing. Life has been hectic for us the past 2 weeks and I haven't had much time to read and post, but I'm always searching for new inspiration and ideas for dealing with my DD's uniqueness. I don't have time to say much else right now, but I'll give a bit of my background.

My 2nd DD, just turned 5 last week, is a beatiful wonderful really smart and completely intense child. She was a very intense baby, and continues to be my most challenging child. I really try to avoid labeling her, and when I say she's "spirited" or "challenging" I'm afraid I'm really just using euphemisms for "difficult" and "crazy" etc. However, I'm beginning to think I need to just admit that she has issues that my other two DD's don't seem to have, whatever you want to call that.

Anyway, we've seen our shares of ups and downs the past few years. DD has been on a pretty mellow streak this week, and things are so wonderful when that happens. Even when things are relatively calm, however, she does have a particularly grating way of screaming when anything is wrong, whether she's injured or just disappointed in something. My DH really struggles with this, noise from the kids in general upsets him, so Sophie's shreeks are really hard for him to cope with.

I have to get off for now, I'm so glad to find this thread, and thank you all so much for sharing. I really want to keep up more and pick your brains about parenting ideas.


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## Mommy&Will

Bearsmama,
Your posts always seem to find me when I need them the most.









I plan to read every page but am still on page 1 of this thread.







But I have to say I got a good (and MUCH needed laugh) about the play date scene... just had one of those myself this week and have been beating myself up over it since. After dealing for an hour of ds hitting kids, throwing toys and being completely out of control, I picked him up and said, "we are getting OUT OF HERE!" So he screams down the hallway over and over, in front of the host, "No, mommy, I don't want to get out of here! NO!!!!"







Thank you and good-bye. : )

I have so many parenting books still to read.









Looking forward to continuing learning thru this thread.


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## TEAK's Mom

sledg, I'm a lousy housekeeper, but my floors are crumb free. Just be aware that pugs shed and snore like crazy. And, they prefer to join the family bed. Seriously, they are short, grunty members of the family. I love 'em.


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## Magella

Welcome, Julie and Keri.

Not much time, but wanted to say that TEAK's, your dogs sound sooooo adorable. Maybe sometime on down the line when we're ready for pets again (and we don't have 5 people crowded into one bed).


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## Bearsmama

Hi,
Just checking in with little time. But SLEDG-Whew! I'm so comforted to know that there are 5 of you in ONE bed. There are still 4 of us in a queen (one being a 6'3 feet tall DH), and sometimes we really DO think that we'll all still be in the same positions when the kids are in high school!

More when I can, ladies. Hope you're having a good night.
TEAKS-I think I really *need* to have a pug now! Although, DH really hates the shedding thing. But for some reason I can see us having these little grunty, squatty, other children.


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## Magella

Bearsmama-







I'm glad it's comforting to you that we're all crammed in the bed still. And I do mean crammed. I wake up feeling truly, physically crooked every morning. I have a crooked spine, and after sleeping (I use the term "sleeping" very loosely) in various odd and uncomfortable positions all night I feel extra-crooked and in pain. But those kids are so darn cuddly...

And you know, I always feel so relieved to read your posts about dropping f-bombs in front of the kids! I'm not the only one!







It's a miracle my kids don't drop f-bombs in conversation...yet. My son recently had a habit of saying "d--n it!" every time something didn't go quite his way.







:


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## TEAK's Mom

You can add us to the "far too many in a queen sized bed" club. OK, most of the night it is just dh, ABKA, two pugs, and me, but TEAK joins us from her "special spot" 18 inches away in the wee hours of the morning. If you were to look up cozy, I think this meets the definition. However, it is hard to tell exactly who is snoring in my ear at any given moment.


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## kayjayjay

Well, last night we had DH, me, 3 DDs (even the 9yo) and our 12yo border collie in our bed. We have a queen sized futon and a twin futon pushed up next to it, but it's still pretty crowded. We don't do this every night, but we've all been fighting colds, and it just seems to soothe everyone when we all sleep together and DH and I don't have to get up to comfort whoever needs it.

So nice to know that we aren't the only crazy ones!


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## Magella

Ahhh, lots of family-bed crazies! We always say that someday they will want nothing to do with us, so we'll enjoy cuddling with them now. Even if they're bossy and tell us to be quiet if we dare speak in bed (this from the kid who still screams in her sleep most nights...geez).


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## TEAK's Mom

sledg, mine does that, too! I'm with you, though. I will cuddle them as long as they let me. I love being in close contact. I just wish I could roll over without dislodging at least one dog and one child...


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## Magella

You can dislodge your kids?! Man, mine are liquid and for some reason get several times heavier when they sleep. Try to push them to roll over (because they just *have* to sleep darn near underneath us so we can't move without moving them) and first off, they're _so_ hard to move and secondly they just ooze right back into place before you can finish moving yourself.


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## Bearsmama

Ahhh, the family bed. Sounds like it's a crowded place for all of us. My little one lately (18 months) won't let me move and inch. Most nights I can handle that, and I actually LOVE cuddling with them. But there's always that one night/week that I feel that I literally cannot stand sleeping with so many darn people-even little ones!







: My 4 yo is very long and lean which means legs and arms poking into my face, neck, etc., all hours of the night. I am so happy to know, though, that I am not alone in loving (in general!) being so physically close to them at night. In fact, I think that our bed-sharing has really helped Bears & me--especially after those 'Lord of the Flies' kinda days. In fact, I can easily imagine a kid like Bears starting to feel kinda detached if there was no extra outreach of more physical contact. Does that make any sense? Like, he is a sensitive kid, prone to angry outbursts, crying, etc. And he has had a mommy who is learning to deal and embrace her anger. Well, at night, that all sort of comes out in the wash. Mommy and daddy are right there, next to him. Cuddling him. Showing him affection no matter what. KWIM?

sledg-About the f-bombs, I have a funny story. One day a few months back, DH brought DS to the car and he still didn't have his shoes on. DH put him in his carseat and then proceeded to try to get on his shoes. Well, they were slip-on sneakers that we both noticed were getting a little snug. DH tried in vain for a few minutes and then finally Bears said, "Dad, the shoes are too f'ing small". Except he said the real word, of course.







Ahhh, outta the mouths of babes. Comes our own words, right?

I've been trying to minimize the Lord of the Flies days. And sometimes no matter what frame of mind you're in, or what positive view you have of your day or your moment, it all goes to hell in a handbasket anyway. I think I used to exacerbate the bad moments by not getting over them quick enough. In fact, this is still a sticking point for me. But I am getting better. OR at least I'm trying.

Today, the little one bit me. That's his new thing. He's getting teeth, has been under-the-weather this week, and is just starting to assert his power a little more around here. WEll, he bit HARD. Almost broke the skin. I yelled at the top of my lungs. Like a lunatic. And the little one just looked at me like, "Who is this crazy woman?"







I don't know why I'm sharing this, other than to say, never to underestimate your challenges!







This little one is going to challenge us in a different way. Oh, and other reason I'm sharing is that I felt terribly guilty and ashamed. Like what insane mommy yells so irrationally at an 18 mo? Geeesh. I did today. BUT, the upside is, I tried hard not to wallow in my shame. I gave him a ton of kisses, and love, apologized and well, he moved on quickly. So, I am learning to do the same. Getting back to the love, so-to-speak.

Here's to a weekend filled with fun and a few minutes to ourselves.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Like what insane mommy yells so irrationally at an 18 mo? Geeesh. I did today. BUT, the upside is, I tried hard not to wallow in my shame. I gave him a ton of kisses, and love, apologized and well, he moved on quickly. So, I am learning to do the same. Getting back to the love, so-to-speak.

I don't know... what would be a more natural consequence than if you bite people really hard, they scream like crazy people? Please- sometimes our most natural reaction is just fine. Boy- do I wish I could remove your guilt/shame button. I can't see how that serves you or the kids.

So- today we are celebrating double golden birthdays at our house. Zach turned 2 on the 2nd and Joey turns 4 today. So our goal is to have Joey in underwear today and boy is he not thrilled. He has been promising that he would wear big boy pants when he is 4 but he hates them. Oh well, my mother always said not to worry too much- time would take care. I have to admit that having him in diapers as big as he is sometimes makes me feel like a "bad mom". I bragged so much about how easy and how early Nate trained. This is my punishment.







:

Hope all is well with everyone. I read all the posts but have to admit that all of my energy is going to my new business and I have become quite obsessed with that.

Maureen


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## Magella

Ah, yes the biting and reflexive screaming. BTDT. I have this tendency to yell (like "OUCH!!!") in this awfully loud, growly kind of voice when I get bitten or kicked or whatever. I have made my little one cry doing this. But yeah, I mean it's not ideal but when you bite someone it hurts and they might yell. Not by any stretch of the imagination the worst response ever.

Moving on quickly is something I'm getting better at. What is getting worse is the fact that I turn into Mrs. Hyde for a week before my period every month. It's horrible. It's definitely a physical, pms thing that turns me into a raving, crazy, mean person. I'm trying to remedy that through better nutrition and less caffeine and more meditation. But I'm afraid this is one of those things....you know, one of those changes from getting older (not old, but older...mid-30s, after birthing 3 kids). We'll see how it goes. You get past one challenge just to find a new one later.

And back to family bed-for us it's our oasis too. No matter what the day was like, most nights we find peace and comfort in being close while we sleep. Even the time when I lay down with the kids while the little one falls asleep is so pleasant, no matter what the day was like or how cranky we were (most nights, that is). This is when we cuddle and talk, when we do our guided visualizations (my oldest loves this...we call them "imaginings") or the muscle relaxation excercises, when we just have this calm healing time together. It's nice.

Maureen, Happy Birthday to your little guys! I hope Joey decides he likes his big boy underwear.


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## Bearsmama

MsMoMpls said:


> I don't know... what would be a more natural consequence than if you bite people really hard, they scream like crazy people? Please- sometimes our most natural reaction is just fine. Boy- do I wish I could remove your guilt/shame button. I can't see how that serves you or the kids.
> 
> Oh, I've been trying to remove that button for years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is one of my huge crosses to bear. And, I'm afraid, not serving my children well, either-just as you said in your reply. Believe it or not, I'm getting better at it. Seriously. I'm not wallowing in it. I can SEE exactly where my thinking gets wacky. And I am working to get over it quickly. It may always be with me somehow, this sense that I should be ashamed of every step-even if they're not true missteps. Ashamed of who I am. I'm also afraid, of course, that this is something that I'm passing on to Bears. I read something once about how we can't NOT pass *some* of our own baggage on to our children.
> 
> Moving on quickly from "bad" moments (mine or the kids) is another obstacle. Like you sledg, I'm getting better at it. Still not great. But trying to stop the train as it's leaving the station. Trying to turn things around. Lately, I've found that humor is really helping me. Of course, humor always helps me (we are a very silly bunch over here), but if I feel that I'm about to rage or scream or yell or say something I know I'll regret, I've been saying things like, "If that happens one more time I'm going to turn into an elephant!". And just saying the word "elephant" changes the dynamic.
> 
> I am a mean PMSer, too, sledg. I haven't done in, but I've been wanting to chart my mood/behaviors and sort of highlight the times that things have felt out-of-control. I'm very in tune with my cycle, but to actually SEE it written out on my calendar, might actually help me realize that those Lord of the Flies moments don't happen as often as my pessimistic mind might lead me to believe.
> 
> Maureen-We literally thought that Bears would be wearing a diaper until middle school. He was very attached to his diapers. But within a week or two of starting preschool, he was in unders and hasn't looked back (he was 3.6 when he started in the fall). Perhaps it will go more smoothly than you anticipate. I'm hoping. Good luck. And happy b-day to your little guys.
> 
> Oh, and welcome to the newer posters that I've neglected to say hello to!


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## TEAK's Mom

If anyone wants to feel superioir on the potty front, they can look at us. And, we've made huge progress in the past couple of months. TEAK now wears undies except for pooping when she insists upon a diaper. She even uses the toilet, which is good because she, at one month until her fourth birthday wears size six clothing and is WAY too big for the potty. However, she will ONLY pee in our toilet. We have been out and about and I've had to take her into a bathroom, put a diaper on her, let her pee, and the put her underpants back on because she did not like the available toilet. She'll get there, I keep telling myself.

You know, I wish that I had a reset button I could push after bad moments. I, too have trouble transitioning away from the rough spots. I just want the ability to wipe it clean instead of wallowing in what I have done wrong. I like to think that the fact that I am a very thoughtful parent is one of my strong points. The problem is that I don't let go of my mistakes as well as I should.

Oh well, at least I can make everyone else feel that they are not alone.


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## emblmrgrl

Hello everyone... been a couple of weeks since I've had time to put much thought into a post but I'm reading, as always.









We've been in a rather smooth spot since our last incident at school and actually, Cole is gone right now with one of his classmates for the morning. That's big for me... more so than him... given that I'm usually VERY resistant to letting him leave with anyone. I get nearly panic striken thinking he'll have a hard time controlling himself with other people that I just can't let him loose with anyone. Makes it hard when his little friends want him to do things with them. The thought that other parents (with those easy kids, lol) might bring him home then run screaming from my house begging me to never let him leave with anyone again is forever present. I just keep thinking he'll have better self control when he's older... but having a twin without his issues makes for hard times when that one is allowed to visit friends and Cole isn't. There's never a fair explanation and I'm sure Cole knows it... which is why I had to just let him go this morning.

Aside from all that, my youngest has now weaned (it was just time for us) so I've been going thru the mixed emotions of that. I can see in the short three weeks since then though that his bond with his dad is growing and that makes it a little easier. I was at least able to go get a haircut without him crying for me for the two hours I was gone, lol. My oldest also turned ten (WHERE did the years go, please?) a couple weeks ago and that was big for us.

On the family bed front ... I tip my hat to you ladies that have more than one in bed with you! LOL Our littlest one sleeps with us and it's getting quite difficult these days. Last night was awful... I was headbutted, kicked in the face, and just generally assaulted for the 5 hours I was actually trying to sleep. Of course, that isn't the norm and I have missed him so on the few occasions I tried to get him to sleep in his own bed that I'm certainly not ready to give it up.

Hope everyone is doing well!


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Emblm--The twin thing must be very interesting. I'm sure everyone else is always comparing them, when YOU know how different they are. But there ya have the idea of other's expectations VS. what you know to be your kid's personality.

Just wanted to comment on a good day over here. Not like they're THAT few and far between.







But my question to you, mamas, is that WHY OH WHY can't there be some rhyme or reason to the good days, too? You know, when the days start spiraling downward, sometimes I can pinpoint how, why, things have gotten there. Sometimes I can't. And this same scratching-my-head stuff happens on the good days, too. Why was I able to have more patience today? Why did we have so much fun today? It's not like I had some pre-determined plan for myself or my actions today, and LORD knows the kids didn't.

Just something to think about. Wish I could bottle this kind of day. But like the bad ones, I can't see how and why it was the way it was.









How's everyone else doing?


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## Magella

We're having a semi-rotten week over here. I'm very cranky, very tired, and very short on whatever it takes to be patient and calm. My oldest is also very cranky, very irritable and impatient. We're clashing big time. I hate it. This morning I decided to cut her bangs during the last ten minutes before we had to be in the car for school (really, extremely stupid decision). They are soooo long and driving her nuts, but she doesn't want to keep growing them, and they looked terrible. So....this child can go sit at the hairdresser perfectly still like some angelic statue while her bangs are cut. But at home it whining and twitching and rubbing her eyes and moving and then the frustration for both of us hits this awful crescendo and I'm lecturing and being a jerk and she's upset....then I'm kissing her goodbye in front of school feeling like the biggest a$$ and wishing I could take the whole morning back, bring her home and snuggle her. It sucks.

Sometimes I wonder if I wrote down in detail everything that happens, everything all of us eat, how we all sleep, how we all feel physically, everything I think, and everything I feel every single day for awhile if I would see a pattern.

Gotta run, my baby nephew is awake.


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## TEAK's Mom

I'm a few posts behind, but I have to post in a moment of extreme pride in my challenging girl. On Sunday morning, we got word that dh's grandfather had died after an extremely long illness. We live in Alaska, they live in Florida. We ended up having less than four hours from getting the news to having to be at the airport. So, dh and I were racing around getting everything ready to travel cross-country with two kids. About two hours into this process, I realized that I had neglected to tell the girls what the heck was going on. ABKA is only 18 months old, so I knew she didn't really grasp it, but TEAK was amazing. She joined right in getting us ready.

Then, she was an absolute angel on the 2.5 hour flight to Seattle, the 5 hour lay-over and the red-eye to Florida. Even when we woke her up at what her body thought was 3:00am to get off the plane and wait an hour for a rental car, she was calm, helpful and sweet. She was amazing throughout the whirlwind trip. (We were in Florida for one full day and two partial days. They are four time zones away.)

To top it off, we got home yesterday afternoon and she spent the entire night vomitting and has massive diarhea this morning, not to mention that huge jet lag that we all have. And, she is still being calm and accepting help and not freaking out.

I just had to share all of this with the group of mamas who might understand how amazing it is.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
I'm a few posts behind, but I have to post in a moment of extreme pride in my challenging girl. On Sunday morning, we got word that dh's grandfather had died after an extremely long illness. We live in Alaska, they live in Florida. We ended up having less than four hours from getting the news to having to be at the airport. So, dh and I were racing around getting everything ready to travel cross-country with two kids. About two hours into this process, I realized that I had neglected to tell the girls what the heck was going on. ABKA is only 18 months old, so I knew she didn't really grasp it, but TEAK was amazing. She joined right in getting us ready.

Then, she was an absolute angel on the 2.5 hour flight to Seattle, the 5 hour lay-over and the red-eye to Florida. Even when we woke her up at what her body thought was 3:00am to get off the plane and wait an hour for a rental car, she was calm, helpful and sweet. She was amazing throughout the whirlwind trip. (We were in Florida for one full day and two partial days. They are four time zones away.)

To top it off, we got home yesterday afternoon and she spent the entire night vomitting and has massive diarhea this morning, not to mention that huge jet lag that we all have. And, she is still being calm and accepting help and not freaking out.

I just had to share all of this with the group of mamas who might understand how amazing it is.

First, my sympathies on your family's loss.

Y'know, I've found that Cole will handle certain stressful situations well. My mother was in a car accident last year. She had just left our house and within 10-15 mins calls me from her cell (while waiting for the ambulance someone else had called) to tell me she's hit a car head on going around a curve. She wasn't seriously injured but from the sound of her voice on the phone, I was concerned. Anyway, I had to load 3 kids in the car and go (oldest was at school). I, as calmly as I could, told them Nana had been in a wreck on her way home and they needed to do exactly as I said so we could get to her ASAP. Now a brief history here, my father was killed in an auto accident when I was 15 so I was doing my best not to panic. Cole was wonderful. He did everything I needed him to do, including grabbing my purse on his own as I gathered the baby. Cyrus, his twin, was firing questions at me left and right all the way to the accident scene. I parked in a drive way close but where they couldn't really see, and told them to stay put with the baby as I ran up to my mother's car. Medics got her in the ambulance and I ran back to my car to meet them at the hospital... Cyrus was just melting and Cole was as calm as could be. He was truly my right hand man that day and kept ME together. Before that day though I thought that kind of stress would for certain send us all into a tailspin.

Bears- the twin thing... yeah it's interesting, lol. While Cole is challenging in the sense that I've shared with you all, Cyrus is his polar opposite. Cole is boisterous. Cyrus is calm, quiet, extremely sensitive, and way less physical. Cyrus is a VERY picky eater, Cole eats anything that doesn't eat him first. Cole is seemingly the leader of the pair and yet when Cyrus is gone, Cole is lost. Cole has a hard time being separated, while Cyrus makes his way alone just fine. Basically, anything that one is, the other isn't. Different weights, heights, hair & eye color... no one ever knows they're twins upon meeting them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
then I'm kissing her goodbye in front of school feeling like the biggest a$$ and wishing I could take the whole morning back, bring her home and snuggle her. It sucks.









Boy, have I been there. More mornings that I'd like to acknowledge, probably.


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## Magella

TEAK's, I am so sorry for your family's loss.

Your story about your girl is amazing. And like you, I have found that when a real challenging time comes along for our family (not the everyday challenging stuff, and we have not had to cope with death of close family yet) my challenging child is always so helpful, calm and cooperative. She seems to understand the seriousness of things, and rises to the occasion. Oddly, despite all the struggles I have with her I always know I can count on her to be at her best when something really tough comes along and we all need to work together to get through it.


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-I'm so sorry for your family's loss.

AND-The story about your challenging girl is truly wonderful. Amazing--especially when you don't really expect too much, or, worse, if your expectations are low. Maybe that goes back to what we all talked about way back in this thread about having no expectations. Then, we can all be surprised. Certainly by the bad times, but even more so by the good times/behavior.

More when I can, ladies. Bunch of things going on this weekend. Gtg clean the house.


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## Bearsmama

Question for my mamas tonight: How do you handle your challenging child's disappointment? I'm asking b/c I know with my guy, his persistence is unparalleled.

I feel kind bad. We don't make a huge deal about finishing our plates or anything like that, but occasionally we have a special sweet treat in the house. And I like to say that we need to eat a good, nourishing meal, before we have something extra. And actually, this is how I eat. I don't have sweets a lot, and if I do, I eat well, and sort of balance my day (or try to), and then feel that I can enjoy the "treat" even more.

Today I bought a very special treat--gelato from this homemade place near us. Sort of pricey, but soooo yummy. It was a beautiful day, and I was feeling frivolous. I mentioned it earlier in the day that we all could eat it outside after dinner. Well, Bears ate one bite of dinner and then started in on the gelato. Kept saying he was ready for it, etc., etc. Well, I just don't think having basically ice cream for dinner is a good thing (at least not every day







. All of us were eating and enjoying our meals--linguine. Well, Bears only likes penne. So, he hemmed and hawed. And I kept saying that I was not going to make another meal. And that was his option for dinner tonight, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well, when we decided not to bring out the gelato b/c it wouldn't be fair to Bears to see the rest of us enjoying it. Or at least it would be rubbing hisnose in what he couldn't have. I guess my point is, I hate to see him so upset, crying, etc. Bigtime tears. And yet I also hate to have issues surrounding food. But he is soooo picky. And well, ice cream is something he soooo loves. I just don't usually give in to this sort of thing. And his persistence is really amazing. I'm sure he'll be crying about it during bedtime stories.

How do you all handle this in your homes?


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## Magella

Well, wrt general disappointments that are the result of things that are impossible to change I try to just give empathy and a hug and let the kids go through their disappointment. WRT disappointments that are the result of things we do have a choice about I take a (very brief) moment to reevaluate-maybe I'm willing to change my mind, maybe not depending on the issue and the needs of other family members and whatnot. Sometimes then I change my mind, sometimes we find a different solution that allows us all to have our needs met and for us all to "win", sometimes the original decision stands and then it's offering empathy and hugs and letting them experience and get through their disappointment.

Specifically, if we were in the situation you described-having a special dessert planned-we'd go ahead and let the kids eat that dessert regardless of how much they ate of dinner. We'd definitely encourage the eating of dinner, and we'd offer alternatives foods if they don't like what we're having (which is rare-and I won't cook another meal, but our kids are always welcome to eat something that they can prepare on their own or with minimal assistance-sandwiches, yogurt, microwave oatmeal, fruit, etc.). We've found that we have dessert so rarely that when we do have one planned it's just so exciting that they are very likely to eat less dinner-and it's okay because they'll eat the dessert and then either they'll not eat any more and be fine or they'll actually go back and eat more dinner (or a healthy snack) after the dessert. We'd rather just enjoy the meal than get into this big struggle over dessert. And since dessert is so infrequent it's no big deal.


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## emblmrgrl

I suppose I handle things similarly to how sledg discribed.

In a situation like you presented, I would've just gone ahead with dessert regardless of how much dinner was eaten. I've found my kids will, like sledg said, either be fine with how much they ate or will return and finish dinner. But for me the decision to not give dessert based on how much eaten comes from a couple places. First, I used to feel that way when my daughter was younger. It then occured to me that she may eat more than she needs just to get that dessert. She's enough like me (easily gains weight) that I didn't want her to over consume just to get a particular thing. That could potentially create a host of problems down the road. Secondly, Cole will eat nearly anything. Seriously. So if he wants to eat his dessert first, it's fine. I can bet money he'll be back to eat his dinner. And thirdly, Cyrus, the more shy twin, is as picky an eater as they come. I've spent days begging him to eat, bribing him to eat, almost forcing him to eat. He has survived on such small amounts and swearing he can't eat another bite that I'm surprised he's never been ill from not eating. With him, it's extremely tempting to draw lines around how much he needs to eat because he seems to be the kind of child it would benefit. It would increase the amount he eats and maybe branch out his food selection. BUT, I've found it creates a power struggle over food that isn't healthy for us. It's a problem that doesn't have to exist. So I have chosen not to go down that road, albeit STILL very tempting at times, trusting that he'll know how much he needs to eat. And hey, ice cream for dinner on occasion isn't THAT bad, is it?









As for disappointments in general, well I do what I can to find a solution to suit us all but there will always be those decisions that I don't waiver on. With those, he just has to deal. And I've found that during those times it's really beneficial not to do that "over talking" thing I tend to do. Just short and to the point usually works better.


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## Bearsmama

Emblm&sledg-Thanks for your replies. As I re-read my post and thought about the situation more, it seems so silly. I think I turned something into a big deal that didn't need to be. It's funny-we never used to make food an issue AT ALL. Until we really realized that he just doesn't eat much (he is a skinny little dude). So, I am going to try even harder to let this one thing go, too.







It's so funny how there are certain situations, like the stupid gelato situation, that I see myself digging my heels in about. And I don't even know why. It's like this little control movie is playing out in front of my eyes and I can see it, and watch it, and I feel very slow to stop it.

So silly. I know. I feel a little like this for even posting about it:







: I think I'm feeling a little *too* comfortable with you ladies, damn you, damn you!







I'm not supposed to let the silly stuff show, too, am I????

Anyway, you're both right. I know it. I knew it then. A misstep. Not the usual thing we do around dinner and I hope we don't do it again.

More later...and THANK YOU. Just thanks for being here.


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, take the bag off of your head. Grin. You know, many of my really hard days seem really silly in retrospect. I just remind myself that it wasn't silly at the time. Then TEAK steals the bag from my head to make a habitat for some animal or other.


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## kayjayjay

Just a quick reply, we've had nights like this and one of our issues with Sophia is that she would eat nothing but sugar if I let her. I have cut all of the refined sugar out of our diets and we usually don't have sweets around at all, but when we do I've found that she will eat nothing for dinner if she knows that there is something for dessert. I really struggle with this because my mother and my MIL will both try to bribe her into eating dinner by offering her something sweet if she cleans her plate. I've told them before, it doesn't work, but they just don't get it.

So, what we do is if there is anything to be had after dinner we hide it and keep it a secret until everyone has eaten their fill of the real food, then we bring out the dessert. There just isn't any other way for us to handle it. If she's refusing to eat dinner because she wants something else, I don't fight her, though. It's a struggle, but I try to keep lots of good healthy food around and let her decide what to eat. I can't tell you how many pounds of junk I've thrown out just so it wouldn't be there as an option. (I don't buy junk food, but DH's family gives us "treats" all of the time, they mean well, but I wish they wouldn't.)

This all hits close to home with me because one of our issues with Sophie is her size. She is extremely small for her age (our other two DDs are average size) and I'm always worried about what she eats. I notice a difference in her mood based on what she's been eating as well.

I have to go now, as usual not enough time to really respond, but I'm glad to know these struggles aren't unique to our family.


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## MsMoMpls

Oh dear- if we can only post about the serious problems, most of us wouldn't have a darn thing to say. Aren't most of our situations really kind of silly after its all over? My mom's answer to almost every parenting dilema is "He won't be doing it in highschool." I almost always lose my temper when it is nothing. I can handle the big things- the broken dishes, the temper tantrums, wait... honestly what are the "big things"? A mom who was in the support group I went to about Nate used to say she only picked power struggles if it was "immoral, illegal or dangerous". That quote always came to mind when I was stuck with him. Honestly if I had chosen fewer little struggles, maybe I would have been in a better place to take on the ones that actually did fit that list- by the time he was doing illegal things, (smoking, skipping school, pot) I had no power with him.

"Never try to control what goes into or comes out of your kid." Another great quote I am fighting right now. Zach is nursing 24 hours a day! Now I have shared with him my committment to nurse until he was 2 and my feeling that I have successfully met that committment- he reminds me the recommendation is "at least" two years... power struggles ensuing.

Joey is highly resistant to potty training. We bought the expensive pull ups as another attempt to seduce him into the wonders of peeing in the potty and he thinks it is just funnier to pee on Bob the Builder. Oh well... power struggles ensuing.

So- I know that Zach won't be nursing in highschool and Joey won't be peeing on Bob the Builder but my patience is tested every day. And I love knowing that somewhere out there are mommas who get all worked up about gelato.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
It's funny-we never used to make food an issue AT ALL. Until we really realized that he just doesn't eat much (he is a skinny little dude). So, I am going to try even harder to let this one thing go, too.







It's so funny how there are certain situations, like the stupid gelato situation, that I see myself digging my heels in about. And I don't even know why. It's like this little control movie is playing out in front of my eyes and I can see it, and watch it, and I feel very slow to stop it.

Y'know, I don't think this is a silly issue _at all_. I am tempted often to try to make my kids (well, my son, mostly) to eat just a little more of this or that. Yes, it's about control...but that desire to control comes from the little niggling fear that my child isn't eating enough to maintain a healthy body and a healthy mood. And there's all these messages I grew up with about what's healthy and what's not, along with all the very confusing and often conflicting information regarding nutrition. I am lucky, because my kids eat almost anything and are willing to try every new thing to see if they like it-and we made a clear decision when my first was born to not control food, but just offer healthy foods and free access to the foods in our home (which are only or mainly healthy in order to avoid any conflicts), which helps us adults stay on track. But now my son, at age 4, is beginning to show some pickiness and a preference for fruits and veggies....so when he eats no protein at a meal (or for a day) I start to freak out a little. Then I remember that we're sort of shooting for a balanced week, not a balanced day, when it comes to nutrition and usually I can let it go. I have to learn to cook beans, I think. I have to expand my cooking repertoire.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
So- I know that Zach won't be nursing in highschool and Joey won't be peeing on Bob the Builder but my patience is tested every day. And I love knowing that somewhere out there are mommas who get all worked up about gelato.









I love this. It really is so important to know that we _all_ get worked up over things that seem silly later. Like when I get all worked up over trimming bangs, or whether or not my son wipes his own butt (I mean, apart from my being tired of wiping butts, what is the big deal if he wants me to wipe it? Why the hurry for him to wipe his own butt already?), or about the fact that my kid _complains_ about doing chores instead of saying "oh, sure dearest mother, I would love to place my neatly folded laundry within my drawers!" Being a mother does not mean always being rational. I think the more important thing is, can we learn from it then laugh or smile about it later? "Don't take life so seriously, it isn't permanent."


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I've been reading this morning, and had to settle in with a cup of coffee before I was able to reply. The little one is actually sleeping, and I don't know how long it will last. So here it goes.

So nice to know we all struggle with the little things. In my former, kid-free life, I used to sort of pride myself on the fact that I could grapple with the big things no problem. Death, illness, etc, I seemed to know how to deal with the big issues. But the little things always threw me. I am not a detail person usually, that is my DH's thing. He remembers what he was wearing at a certain time in his life, or at an important moment. And me, well, I remember the feelings, the joy, the sadness, that stuff. But ask me what shoes I had on or that kind of thing and I don't know.

Maureen & Sledg et al: I just read a little article in the NYT this weekend about a couple that had three kids. It was just a little thing on their life together. The mom said that from the beginning they took the "Third Child" approach to parenting. You know, not sweating the small stuff. Picking the binky up off the floor and giving it right back to the babe without having to sanitize it. I really liked that idea b/c I know that I'm a bit more relaxed with my youngest.

Up until recently, Bears had really long hair. Last spring he just decided that he would not let us touch his hair. So it got long and strangly and curled in all these weird ways. Inevitably, an older relative of DH's would say, "He needs a haircut", or some other idiotic thing. And although I cared a tiny bit b/c I couldn't see his beautiful little face, I really didn't sweat this. But EVERYONE ELSE did. Why was this not so important, but the damn gelato was?







:

Maureen-I really like what you said that you gleaned from your support group way back when. If it's the big stuff, then it's important to step in. I heard someone say (I forget who, I think it was some celebrity), that this age, when our kids are young, is about "keeping them out of traffic". You know, keeping them alive. I know this sounds sort of glib, but I think there's a grain of truth to it. Then this person went on to say that they hoped they were building some kind of base for their family that when the kids got bigger, and approached that scary time when they are going to make their own decisions (you know, the potentially life-altering ones: drugs, sex, etc), that they feel comfortable sharing their feelings with their families.

Oh, on the food thing: Bears is an incredibly picky eater. Eats no veggie (I'm not kidding here) and the occasional piece of apple, strawberry, or melon. So I tend to worry about his nutrition a bit. The flip side of this part of my personality is that I made a cake on Sunday and yesterday they were both sitting on top of the dining room table eating the last slice and spreading crumbs everywhere.







And that didn't phase me at all. Weird.

TEAKS-There are those days that in retrospect seem so silly. Some are hard b/c they're just damn hard. And others are hard b/c we've dug our heels in about something silly or whatever.

And Kayjayjay-I'm glad this thread that has provided you with some comfort--these things happen around here quite a bit. SEems like we're all in this together.


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## TEAK's Mom

We really are in this together. Sigh. I remember when TEAK would only eat canned pears, graham crackers and drink milk with Ovaltine. This lasted nearly six months. The good news is that it did pass and she now tries almost anything. She may not always end up liking the food, but she is willing and happy to try. In fact, since we started ordering organic veggies and fruits from a co-op, she eats things like kale and celery root. As long as she helps unpack the box, she'll taste it.

I do owe you ladies an apology. My posts are always so short and choppy. DH is in his constant work time of year and I literally sneak here in stolen moments. I really am more insightful than I sound, or at least I hope so...


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## Magella

I love this thread. It's so real.

In thinking about this topic of food, I kept coming back to connection and trust as the big keys to this parenting gig. The two issues (so far) in parenting my kids that have never been a struggle are potty training and eating. Now, some of that is luck, I know, b/c some kids just don't eat much-I've known some kids who are just tiny and don't seem to need or want as much food as the adults in their lives would like to see them eat. But a big part of it is that these two areas are the two in which we knew we must trust our kids to do it-to decide to pee in the potty, to decide to eat. So even when we have had our moments of feeling anxious or irritated or hurried or controlling, we have decided to trust and to be connected enough with our kids to read their signals-our kids are the ones who know when they're hungry and what they like and their bodies will guide them in eating what their bodies need (mostly), our kids will know when they're ready to start to pee in the potty. We trust that modeling is mostly what they need-to see mom and dad and sister and brother using the potty, to cook with us and shop with us and dine with us and see us eat a wide variety of food and taste new things. And even if it doesn't go perfectly smoothly, we don't _struggle_. It just is what it is.

I always come back to potty training and eating and have this sense that if I could just connect and trust this way wrt so many other issues, the issues would cease to be issues-the struggles would no longer be struggles. Daily, it seems, I am challenged when some situation arises and my connection with my children is obscured by those voices of childhood and culture, and by my own feelings (or lack of awareness of my feelings or needs). Or when that connection doesn't happen because my needs and my kids needs are in conflict. And those aforementioned voices of childhood and culture get in the way of my being able to let go and trust that my children will learn and mature at their pace, that I don't have to be in such a stressed-out hurry for them to learn it _right now_. And when that connection and trust is there, there is no sense of effort or struggle-even if we're angry or frustrated or whatever. We can feel those things without feeling struggle, yk? Just like I'm a little annoyed and exasperated (b/c of the extra laundry-there's such a backlog already) at my little one's constant dribbling in her pants this last week or so after being fully potty trained for two months now, but still there is no sense of struggle. She'll get it, she's having accidents because she's busy and she's clearly in the midst of some big developmental changes, but I trust that this will pass and soon enough she won't be going through several pair of pants each day.

Okay, I'm done thinking out loud for now.

Oh, and TEAK's, I think you sound plenty insightful in your short-but-sweet way.


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## Mickiswing

May I join the club?

I have three kids. The oldest two are extremely high need, the oldest on the autism spectrum. Challenging, spirited, however you want to say it. My baby, 9 months next week, keeps flipping back and forth between being challenging and not quite as challenging.

I haven't divulged all the details of my struggle with all of this to anyone, including my DH. He knows some, mostly the extend of my frustration. Last Saturday, after the kids were in bed, I put myself in a time out. DH followed me down the stairs, and many details later, I lost my temper, threw a tantrum and punched the wall.

There have been days lately where the phrase "We do not negotiate with terrorists" has been floating around in my head. There are times I don't want to be a mom. Sometimes I want to leave the house and I worry whether or not I really want to come home.

Most of the time I feel like all I do is fight people with their input and output. I fight to get people to eat or not eat what they shouldn't, and I fight to change diapers, persuade to use the potty, etc. Everything is a struggle. Even things they want to do.

Anyhow, I can't even stand talking about it any more tonight, but had to say hi and thanks to everyone participating on this thread. It takes a lot of guts to be so open. I'm a firm believer that one of the reasons we have struggles is so we can help someone else down the road. I hope someday sharing this with someone will be helpful.

Ugh, I'm not even thinking straight. I'll try again tomorrow.


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## emblmrgrl

Welcome Mickiswing!

Everyone is right on about the silly stuff...

Bears, the hair thing reminded me of my littlest guy. I had to cut his hair again the other night and I was complaining the entire time. I mean really, who wants to purposely wrestle an almost 2 y/o into a hair cut? Not I. So I'm sitting there and just said to my DH "y'know, next time, the people complaining about his hair can come over and do this". DH throws me a confused look and I said "I truly don't care if he has hair down to his butt. The only reason I do this is because of comments from other people and that's about to stop." I did wrestle the twins and I hated it, but I did it because DH wanted their hair short. No more though... I'm lettin' it go.

Food is something we've struggled with as well though. Cyrus weighs a full 10 lbs. less than Cole. Last week he missed a snack after school and by the time we had dinner, which was way late because of soccer, he was too sick to eat. He took a few bites of food and ended up throwing up. It worries me to death some days. It seems that any issue Cole doesn't worry me over, Cyrus makes up for.

My silly things? Cole just can't do things my way. Cleaning their rooms... I'm a neat freak. My biggest one... the pressure I feel to uphold a certain image in public. I'll never forget my mom saying to me when I had my first child... "I never wanted to pull in someone's driveway and them see me with y'all and think 'oh great, here she comes with those wild kids again'. " That is etched into my brain and when Cole gets so out of hand in public (like running away from me) that's the first thing that I think people are thinking. There she is with that kid again that can't behave. I'm afriad he's gonna alienate people with his behavior. And really, that's silly. Why should I care what anyone thinks of him?! Or me, as his mother, for that matter. I was the girl that dyed her hair different colors before it was common knowing full well I would get odd looks. Yet now I worry about what other people think. What a PITA to feel this way.

Ok, enough rant for me tonight... more later, I'm sure.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Then this person went on to say that they hoped they were building some kind of base for their family that when the kids got bigger, and approached that scary time when they are going to make their own decisions (you know, the potentially life-altering ones: drugs, sex, etc), that they feel comfortable sharing their feelings with their families.

I think people don't understand the whole "trust" stage- we focus on trusting that someone will come when we need them but I think the early years are also about learning to trust that if we say something is important- it must be. If we pick every battle then they learn to ignore a huge percentage of what we say. I want to be able to look my teenage Joey in the eye and say "I am only saying no because I love you- you need to trust that I have your best interests at heart." When I get all worked up about... ah- today he used the garlic press for playdough! If I get all worked up about the garlic press then maybe he will look at me and think- "oh, momma you are always making something out of nothing..." See that is what I think trust is all about. I like the "keeping them out of traffic" thing as well because that is about the only time I honestly believe you get to justify yelling. You have to save it for the emergencies if you want it to work.

That said... and I am way into the third child philosophy- I am not being my best parent this week. Spring fever and the new business stress and doing just way too much. Wednesdays are always best because I put dinner in the crockpot, drop the kids at daycare and get to have three hours before I have to be at the office. Just need a few hours kid break to be fresh again.

Thanks everyone for helping keep me sane.


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## kayjayjay

Quote:

There have been days lately where the phrase "We do not negotiate with terrorists" has been floating around in my head.









Mickiswing, I can soooo relate to this! I hope you're having a better day today.

We've been pretty calm around here lately, just waiting for the next storm. Things go in waves for us. I'm learning (I think) to just surrender to the chaos.

I do think we've been having a good week because I got a bit of a break to recuperate last week (my mom took my two oldest to her house for a few days) and I'm feeling more on top of my own emotions. When I get worn out I just don't see the storms coming before they are out of control.

Anyway, welcome.


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## Bearsmama

MsMoMpls said:


> I think people don't understand the whole "trust" stage- we focus on trusting that someone will come when we need them but I think the early years are also about learning to trust that if we say something is important- it must be. If we pick every battle then they learn to ignore a huge percentage of what we say. I want to be able to look my teenage Joey in the eye and say "I am only saying no because I love you- you need to trust that I have your best interests at heart." When I get all worked up about... ah- today he used the garlic press for playdough! If I get all worked up about the garlic press then maybe he will look at me and think- "oh, momma you are always making something out of nothing..." See that is what I think trust is all about. I like the "keeping them out of traffic" thing as well because that is about the only time I honestly believe you get to justify yelling. You have to save it for the emergencies if you want it to work.
> 
> Maureen-I completely understand this. And I hope to put it into practice a little bit better starting today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can definitely be an over-reactor. DEFINITELY. And I get that if I keep overreacting due to the small stuff, then they will be confused when I say, THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. Maureen-You're always making me think and reevaluate. Oh, Maureen--If you think that this trust thing goes both ways, of course, what do you think are the other factors involved in keeping them close as they grow away from us? One of things that I always talk to my DH about is how I never want to stop being physically close to my kids. I think sometimes as kids grow we forget that they still need kisses, hugs, love. I know there will be a time that they won't want me to always be kissing them, but I think telling them how much we love them and SHOWING IT-even when they're 9 or 12 or 14, is important. This is just one of those things that I've often thought about. What do you think?
> 
> Micky-Welcome to the club.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emblm-Maybe we should all go back to dyeing our hair different, wacky colors, or wearing goofy outfits (like I did) as we mother our kids. You know, go back to that stage of mind when we were trying to define ourselves, not giving a crap what others thought (although I'm sure we did). This might be a good lesson for us mamas. Caring less about what others think. I have to say that this is not a huge one for me--at least not anymore. And I think I can credit Bears for that one. He has always been different and I've always had to face a crowd of relatives, friends, strangers with a kid who just doesn't fit the mold. In accepting him, I've really given up a lot of that what-thing-SHOULD-look-like stuff.
> 
> Speaking of which, my SIL tells this story of one of the times she remembers my MIL losing her mind. They were in the doctor's office and it was a hot summer day. My SIL had the audacity ( I think she was about 4) to tell my MIL, in front of the other moms and LOUDLY, that she had sweatstains under her armpits. Apparently my MIL just lost it. Which says a lot about my MIL, and how appearances are so huge for her. They were then and still are. Funny the different stuff we all react to.
> 
> More later.
> 
> Maureen-Hope your week gets less hectic.


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## Mickiswing

Thanks for the welcomes! I just hope I have something worthwhile to contribute to the thread and don't end up hijacking it.

I'm hoping that at least my 2 year old will be a little happier today. DH and I decided to try to put the baby in our room for a couple nights and see if maybe she's just tired. I know I probably don't have to justify this, but I will anyway. Our first two kids were not cosleepers. Never have been. They wouldn't sleep well with us, and therefore would spend all night kicking and whining, etc. The baby will occasionally sleep with me if she nurses to bed at some point during the night, but usually lets me know she wants her own space. You really can't make anyone be a cosleeper if they don't want to. Anyway. Soooo, last night we had the baby in a pack 'n play at the base of our bed and the two year old was in her room alone. I didn't hear from her at all, so I'm hoping she slept better. I, however, did not. It's a change for the baby, and she didn't sleep as well, and I woke up every time she even moved. I'm not sure this is a good idea, but I don't know what else to do. I have a hard enough getting through a day when I've had a normal night of not perfect sleep, but with not much sleep, I'm worried about how I can function.

How many others have fights about stuff even when it's choices the kids have made? For instance, this morning 2 yo dd wanted cereal for breakfast. Even though it meant making a total of FOUR different meals for breakfast, I agreed. It's not worth the battle. I told her she could pick out a bowl and a spoon, and a cereal and I'd help her pour it. Sounds reasonable, right? Yeah, I was wrong. When she got to the table and I poured the cereal, she flipped out. She didn't want the pink bowl anymore. So we switched to the blue bowl and everything was fine for a moment. I put the cereal in the blue bowl and made sure that's what she wanted. I poured the milk on it, handed her the spoon and she threw everything on the floor. And of course, it's not just this simple. Charlotte's crying for her breakfast, Jackson's irritated because Evie's screaming, and nobody's eaten yet. I don't think I should stop meeting the basic needs of others to focus on the tantrum, and so I picked her up and put her back in her room. It's not fair to the other three people in the house to have to wait while she's expressing negative behavior. She screamed in her room for nearly an hour. It's pretty normal to have mornings where there's a struggle like this. It's always something.

The older two are on a "No, Mommy do it." kick. They things they are perfectly capable of doing are being met by a 'No, just do it yourself.' Evie is sitting down and she wants a book. It's right by her feet. "Mommy, book!" she screams. "Evie, it's right there, you can reach it. Go ahead." Tantrum. "NO! Mommy do it! Mommy do it!"

DH offered to let me have a break for a couple days. But the problem is, even if I could leave, things are even worse when I get back. So is it even worth it? It's like they punish me for leaving. I don't get out by myself very often, but even after two hours of running errands when the kids are aware that I'm gone, it's turmoil.

I wish sometimes that there was an obedience school for kids. For lack of a better phrase. Please don't flame me for this. It just seems that a lot of the time they act much better for others, so why not hand them over, have them work on the issues, and give them back when they've made some progress.

And that's another irritation for me. The majority of the time if we go out, say to an appointment, the kids behave perfectly while we're there. I get compliments on their use of manners, their patience, how well they get along, etc. It's usually a little different when we have to leave, but why the heck can't they behave like that at home?


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## Bearsmama

Micki-This happens for us, too. In fact, I think it happens to every mom. And I think it has to do with feelings of safety and trust. At home, with mom and dad (especially MOM, it seems like), kids feel free (hopefully) to be themselves, to show the "bad" parts, the ugly moments, the wild behavior. Actually, I guess we should all feel pretty good about our kids flipping out only with us. Shows how much they love and trust us.









Maureen-I'm just rethinking my question to you about showing love and affection as kids grow. This is, I guess, one of our important things around here (I guess that's called a value). And I guess I'm always interested in what you have to say on these subjects b/c unlike a lot of us here, you have that much-needed thing that moms of only small children really wanterspective. I always find it interesting what's important to any one family. What "values" they've chosen to hold dear. And I've realized lately that there are these unspoken values (aren't many of them unspoken?) in our little family that I'm so proud of. I just sometimes want that crystal ball that could tell me if my focus on them will be important in the long run. I can only hope that they will.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey everyone- no time... I am supposed to be on my way to the office.. but this is more fun.

Mickey- welcome... as long as your are open and honest and not one of those perfect parents... you will do just great here. This is the place to be.

Bearsmama- When we got back from Mexico a few weeks agon, Nate welcomed me with the biggest hug, I almost cried. Most parents actually pull away from their kids, thinking their kids don't want the closeness. Kids want hugs! The hardest value for me is acceptance. That means he does things I think are stupid! and my thinking they are stupid is critical and judgemental and all about me. And it doesn't lead to closeness. Every human being on this planet has a right to make their own mistakes, parents and kids a like. That is how we learn. Since I value learning I have to learn to value "mistakes".

Ok- I have to get out of here or I will be doing sessions in sweatpants and it will be your fault.









Love you all,
Maureen


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## Justine

Hi everyone,

Just checking in to say that I gave birth to another baby boy on Feb 25th - we were very, very fortunate to have a relatively quick/natural delivery as one of my main concerns was leaving DS1 with his Granny, as it's been me and him for most of his nearly 2 years. Anyway, baby no2 was a bouncing 9lb 3oz which was a shock to say the least - the labour was agonising but I was thrilled to have done it without intervention and to get home quickly.

So far he is a very different baby to DS1 - dare I say it he seems very, very relaxed indeed and at this stage I am tempted to say he may not be as spirited as my firstborn, who unfortunately had a difficult time being born. I was very upset shortly after the birth of DS2 - looking back and thinking about the birth of my first - poor little man.

DS1 has adapted brilliantly so far - PHEW!!! I am tandem nursing, which was such a novelty for the first few days - now toddler wants to nurse all the time and it's hard. I am very, very proud of the way he has adapted though as I was anxious with him being mr.high needs. I'm so relieved the birth and everything is now over - the thought of being away from him for more than a day was really worrying. It's that feeling of thinking you are the only one in the world that understands him, his ways, his needs etc. Maybe it's to do with not being able to let go - I don't know.

Anyway - I just wanted to say that I am incredibly moved by all the latest posts on this thread. There really are some insightful, special, funny, inspiring people contributing to this thread and I am so grateful to have found it, even if I don't have chance to post much.

Love to everyone

Justine


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## Magella

Congratulations, Justine!!!!

And hello, Micki. I have always heard that kids are at their worst for their parents because their parents are the people with whom they feel most comfortable and safe. Home with mom and dad is where they can let it all hang out in safety.


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## Magella

Okay, time for another question that makes someone feel really silly. One for you moms of boys.

Um....I don't know how to play with my son. He's 4, and I'm realizing that he needs some kind of play that I really don't know how to do-that sounds dumb, I know. My oldest (dd) is all tea parties and dress-up and reading stories and arts & crafts and dolls. All that girl stuff. And I'm not really a playing kind of person, I guess, and always thought I was bad at playing with her. But I am finding now that I'm even worse at knowing how to play with my son. (And yeah, I've read Playful Parenting. Is there some book about the secrets of women raising boys?)

So here we are, and I have this gut feeling that he's in need of some kind of connection that I don't really know how to make. On days he's into reading or looking up science-y stuff or doing science experiments I'm good. But otherwise, I feel at a loss. He is _so_ not into tea-parties and dolls and all that other stuff right now (though it was really cute when he was a toddler and had baby dolls and nursed his babies), which my girls are into.

How do you play with your boys? Do you play with them? What do they like? How do you connect with them and do special time with them?


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*

How do you play with your boys? Do you play with them? What do they like? How do you connect with them and do special time with them?

No, we don't play, not so much.









That sounds awful, but my boys are pretty rowdy. The noise is overstimulating to me and the physical way they like to play sends me into orbit. I can't wrestle with them. We read, we talk, we dig for information together but really in the floor playing is better left to DH or between themselves. Really, I'm not a playful person... wasn't even as a child. My imagination is nil. My DD is much like that and so it's never been a big problem for me. I also don't really remember my mom being playful so I guess I've kind of assumed that role. I thought of her as comfort and my dad as protective but also the one that really got down and did stuff with us. I have attempted to play trucks, they're VERY into their cars and rescue heros, but it doesn't usually last long. Now jigsaw puzzles... THERE'S an activity only *I* can be left to do with them. LOL


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## TEAK's Mom

Congratulations Justine. Blessings for your family!


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## MsMoMpls

Congratulations!!!! Our tribe just got bigger! Wow... that is so wonderful.

So... about playing with boys. It took me years but I am the champ. First of all I was the girliest girl and raised with a bunch of little sisters who obeyed my every mother/teacher/nurse command.... how do you think I got this way?

So- its all the same as girl games but wilder. We smash playdough, we throw things, we dance to really loud music, we roll things, we chase around and around and around, we play ring around the rosey until we want to hurl, we play bad guys and good guys A LOT! The worlds best new toy is Cranium's Hullabaloo... we play that a lot. We build towers and crash them. We crash a lot of things- cars, trucks, books, babies, stuffed animals.

Raising boys is the best. You get to be really naughty. You have to find your inner boy. There is a part of you that your loving parents squashed with all that pink. Find the messy, loud, crass, farting, burping, breaking, rough side and you will be the way coolest mom in the world... just like me.


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## emblmrgrl

Congrats Justine! I somehow missed your post before. .


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## Magella

Thanks, emblmrgrl. It's always good to hear that other moms don't play much-I feel more normal hearing it. And thanks Maureen! I love your ideas!

Ds loves Hullaballoo, we played it at a friend's home last week. We don't have that game, but we've decided to make our own.

We build, but don't crash-that sounds fun. I can do that. I do try to play baseball and soccer and whatnot, but I stink at it and the kids get frustrated with me.







Chasing I can do, I just don't think of it.

Now, ds loves superheroes and good guys/bad guys but I feel like I have NO CLUE how to do that. I'll just have to give it a whirl.

Quote:

Raising boys is the best. You get to be really naughty. You have to find your inner boy. There is a part of you that your loving parents squashed with all that pink. Find the messy, loud, crass, farting, burping, breaking, rough side and you will be the way coolest mom in the world... just like me.
So if I learn to burp the ABCs like dh does, I'm all set?







I like that....find my inner boy. I'll work on that.


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## kayjayjay

Congratulations Justine on your new little one!

Obviously, I don't have any suggestions for playing with boys.







With 3 little girls we have a pretty feminine atmosphere (just ask DH







).

I have a quick practical question. What do you do or say when your DC hits you? Surely I'm not the only one that has had this happen. DD just hauled off and hit me in the back this morning and it really took me by surprise both because I didn't see it coming and because it really hurt. I think my shocked reaction scared her and I just said "go to your room before I get mad" and she left the room and after we both calmed down things were ok. I just don't know what to say to her. I tell her things like "that hurts" "please don't hit me" "people aren't for hurting" and the like. Is she going to outgrow this someday? I'm just tired of pleading with her to be nice.


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## Magella

Which of your dd's hit you? What I say depends on how old the child is and the circumstances. Sometimes a simple "I don't like it when you hit me" or "ouch, that hurts! Please touch me gently" is all I say and what seems most appropriate. Other times I'll add (with the older kids-older than my 2 year old) "tell me what's bothering you, I know you don't hit when you're feeling good." Or something like that. We might at that time or later (later when we're all calm is often better) go on to talk about other ways to handle feelings and conflicts. Mostly I go with what feels right. The other day ds was mad at me and threw a giant ball at my back. We had already talked about what was bothering him. Initially I reacted by saying "did you just throw that at me on purpose?" (he said "yes") then I paused and decided the best response was "I don't like it when you throw the ball at me like that. It hurts." Then I left it at that. It felt like that was all that needed to be said.

FWIW, when it comes to my oldest who did hit a lot (and still tends to hit her siblings more than I think is appropriate for her age and yells way too much) it took me a veeeeeery long time to figure out that it wasn't just the response after the hitting that mattered, I had to address the reasons for the hitting in the first place. And those reasons weren't so easy to figure out, honestly. To paraphrase Shrek, she's like an onion: she's got layers. There are so many reasons she hits and yells, and telling her not to do it and why is only part of the solution. My dd's reasons for aggresssive behavior (yelling and hitting) include: being too hungry, being too tired, feeling stressed, not enough connection-time with mom or dad, not enough one-on-one time with mom or dad recently, foods with dyes or preservatives, high sensitivity to environmental factors or high emotional sensitivity (she feels everything so deeply and intensely, so even disappointments that seem small to me are big to her), feeling criticized too much and not appreciated enough, not having the words to describe her feelings, not having the skills to negotiate a conflict in more effective ways. I could go on and on. The bottom line for her is that if she feels good, she is gentle and pleasant. If she's hitting, she doesn't feel good. Now, she also has to learn to control herself even when she doesn't feel good-we're working on that. That comes with time. And I have to admit, I haven't been a good role model for handling conflict and frustration. She learned to yell very well from watching me.







: We have a secret word now that anyone in the family can use to cue others to stop yelling (or hitting). It's a reminder, and a good one. We have a hand signal too. We decided on the particular word and hand signal in a family meeting. Now if we can just get even better at using it, and get dh to remember to use it....


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## Bearsmama

Congrats, Justine!









Wow, another great discussion. First, with the playing with boys thing. It is soooo weird that this topic came up (or so perfect, I should say). I just saw relative of a friend of mine who raised two boys (now grown) she saw me with my boys yesterday and said that "raising boys was much easier" b/c boys are more straightforward, more fun, etc. Of course, these are HUGE generalizations, but I think there's a kernal of truth here. Also, just today we were playing with the neighbors and I was saying to my neighbor how it's weird with the boys b/c I love that they can be physical with each other in a playful way (and with the neighbor kids) but that I fear it when things get rough. It's finding the balance with them that's key.

sledg-You know, reading these threads tonights makes me realize that I'm a pretty good player.







Hey, wait a minute, did Bearsmama just say something good about her mothering??







I'm very physical with my kids. Both DH and I pick them up a lot, swing 'em around. We dance A LOT. We turn the music up LOUD. We ride each other, yes, I said ride. If I get on the floor, I know that I will be jumped by two boys who want a monster ride. We run around, we kick balls and throw them, we hang them upside down and kiss their bellies. Etc., etc. I think that boys are just more physical in general. And Bears, in particular, responds to physicality. Which is kind of weird b/c he's not necessarily a "snuggly" little kid (I have my little one who is an extremely snuggly guy). It's so hard when a part of your parenting just seems so outside of who you are as a person. I was not and am not a girly-girl. I'm not necessarily an athletic person, but I don't mind getting dirty or loud, and I don't mind poopie humor.









Is there a time that you can just be with your son, sledg? I know that's probably damn near impossible with three.

Of course, there are plenty of other "people" I have to be as a mother that seem outside of my experience, but this is not one of them.

About the hitting, kayjay. When you asked what do you say when they hit, of course I had an expletive-filled answer!







Seriosuly, though, hitting is a huge trigger for me. Perhaps that has to do with something from childhood, I don't know. When Bears would hit or bite, I always had a reaction and never an "appropriate" one. I yelled. A LOT. HE went through both of these phases. Somehow he got through it, but I can't take credit for him getting through it. My little one, however, is now hitting a bit. And he is just looking for a reaction and I'm trying hard not to give him the rxn that he's looking for. Although, honestly, I've been grabbing his hands in mine and saying, "That hurts mama, no". That's about it. Tell him that it hurts, tell him no.

Anyway, gtg. More when I can. Once again, ladies, thanks for the great discussions, love and support here. I'm always refreshed and recharged after checking in.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, sledg-I forgot to say that I LOVE your secret word and hand signal. This is beautiful to me. It really is. It's just another big sign of how hard you're thinking about and working on your parenting and family. And I just so appreciate and love that. This is the stuff you never hear about IRL, really. It's only when you can be really, really honest and open about the challenges of parenting that you can see the struggle and the beauty in all of it. AND, specifically, DH and I used to say to each other "Merry Christmas" when we felt that our heads were going to explode. Of course, this seems trivial and small and humorous compared to what you've mentioned. But I think it was two Christmases ago and maybe it was Xmas eve and something was getting out of control and I said, jokingly, "Merry Christmas", while I gritted my teeth. I guess you have to know the sarcastic side to my personality to get that it was actually funny at the time. Well, this statement worked for us for a long time. When DH was bathing the kids and he could feel himself getting angry, he would say, "Merry Christmas" and I would know that he needed some help.


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## Magella

Wow, Bearsmama you sound like a _really_ fun mom!! Play like that just doesn't come very naturally to me. But I am on a quest to dig up my inner boy.







Actually, I found myself making jokes about eating fish eyes with my dd last night (as a follow-up to processing a lunch-at-school incident) and thinking...this is kind of boyish, why don't I joke around like this with my son more? He loves this kind of stuff, and quite honestly I'm not a complete stranger to potty humor-I just feel odd actually participating in that, all those messages about what's appropriate come up and mess with the fun. And I really do need to find time alone with him. With all of them really. It seems so complicated with 3 kids, but I think if I just sit down to plan it and just do it I'll find that it really isn't so complicated. We actually had some good alone time a couple of days this week while dd1 was at school and dd2 was sleeping. So it is possible to squeeze in a little here and there, between going out on "dates."

I also think that it's going to be fun when we start digging up part of the yard to plant a garden. We can dig and make mud and whatnot until the ground is ready for planting. I like this stuff, and sometimes so do the kids. But ds and dd2 sometimes are very fussy about getting dirty. Sometimes you think something is going to be sooooo fun and then your kids throw these curveballs at you like not wanting to be dirty (I mean, really freaking out about being dirty and not wanting to actually play b/c it bothers them so much).

As I'm typing this I'm realizing how very much I still focus on dd1 to the point of it interfering with my being aware of and getting to know in the same deep way my other kids. Life still revolves so much around dealing with her, despite how much better she's gotten as she matures. It's sad, and it doesn't seem fair. And how much of it is just my habits now, as opposed to her actual needs?

I remember your "Merry Christmas" from awhile back, and I still think that's so great! I can totally picture that as being funny, this is something I can picture dh and I doing. I still call up dh right before he leaves work when I'm having a really rotten day, and when he answers I say "you have a collect call from hell, will you accept the charges?" This is all I need to say, and we laugh but he knows without my going into detail that I've had a really lousy day and I'm going to need some extra help when he gets home (and that he should bring me chocolate!). I think these types of cues to each other work so well to communicate what we need, while keeping the connection with humor. This is the same sort of thing we're doing with the kids now. The kids came up with the silly secret word (it's "goozely-woozely") and not only do we use it to remind them to be gentle, but they are welcome (but not at all obligated) to use it when we adults begin to yell or be disrespectful at them and they are encouraged to use it with each other. I want my kids to be able to say to me, in some way they're comfortable with, "stop, don't treat me this way." It's not their job to remind me, it's my job and responsibility to communicate better, but there's no reason why they can't be empowered to stand up for themselves. We can all work together here, we're all on the same side.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
BI truly don't care if he has hair down to his butt. The only reason I do this is because of comments from other people and that's about to stop." I did wrestle the twins and I hated it, but I did it because DH wanted their hair short. No more though... I'm lettin' it go.
and
My biggest one... the pressure I feel to uphold a certain image in public. I'll never forget my mom saying to me when I had my first child... "I never wanted to pull in someone's driveway and them see me with y'all and think 'oh great, here she comes with those wild kids again'. " )

BTDT.

My mother especially was psycho about the kids hair. She almost disowned them.

As for the second my kids go to school and I hear nothing but compliments on how well-behaved they are. Not that they are like that at home







but they can behave if they need too. That is mostly a personality thing I think but maybe I did do something right.

I don't think that wild behavior is always a reflection on the parent-especially in younger kids but a lot of it does improve with age.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
You know, I wish that I had a reset button I could push after bad moments. I, too have trouble transitioning away from the rough spots. I just want the ability to wipe it clean instead of wallowing in what I have done wrong. I like to think that the fact that I am a very thoughtful parent is one of my strong points. The problem is that I don't let go of my mistakes as well as I should.

Oh well, at least I can make everyone else feel that they are not alone.









I've so BTDT.

My oldest two are potty trained FWIW









The 4 yo is pee trained but I'm positive he won't wear diapers to Kindergarten. And if he does, he can wear a pull-up.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

How do you all handle this in your homes?

I might have let him eat the gelato







but I really, really try not to make a big deal out of food. I probably would have tried to slip in a high protein snack later.

But I'm not saying that you handled it wrong. I really think you were fine. Disappointments are going to happen. If not gelato then something else. Like the sky is blue, not green







I try to emphathize (you feel really sad) but not to make too big a deal as to prolong it IKYWIM.

Then I try to move on with our life.

I know all about persistent kids, believe me.


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## Bearsmama

Sledg-Don't get the wrong idea; today I'm 'grumpy' mom!







: And I'm not always playful when they want or need me to be playful. Which is tricky. B/c I read some quote (I think it was in someone's siggy here at MDC) about loving your kids isn't about loving them when you want to,it's about loving them when THEY need it. I'm not being very clear there, but I got the gist of it. Oh, Bears gets a little freaky about getting messy, too. So, I have to be careful how I approach things. But in general, if it's fun, he'll be into it if mommy's into it.

sledg-It's so hard to get away from treating and focusing on the challenging one. I can only imagine that that challenge increases ten-fold (or more!) with each child. I think it was the first psychologist that we met with about Bears that said that kids that have symptoms of what Bears could have down the line (ADD/ADHD) usually have challenging behaviors b/c of this issue AND b/c of their differences their families have altered their lives-their daily lives to better parent that one child. So it's a combination of things. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine that your challenging DD has demanded a certain amount of attention. And that on many, many levels it hasn't really been a choice, per se, to treat her the same as the other kids. Like with Bears, since he was tiny we've altered things about our lives, where we would go, etc., to meet his needs. Then, on some level this child expects this.

I want to write more, but for some reason, my little one has decided to take off all of his clothes. I'm not sure what's next


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## emblmrgrl

Oh good gracious, I was half way thru a huge post and my computer ate it









I come to you wise mamas to vent this morning. Last night we had soccer practice. I've coached Cole's team since he started playing. This is his 4th season. He's always done good for me aside from the occasional lazy bouts he'll have which in turn makes him sit and pout. I generally go over and tell him that when we're at soccer, I'm his coach and he needs to listen just like the others. It's never too big of a problem and frankly, expected for a bunch of 5/6 year olds. So last night was like any other. We finished up his practice and went two fields over to where my DD was practicing. He went with some other boys to the field behind me to kick the ball around and goof off. I was sitting with my back to him, talking to some moms from my DDs team. I went to gather my things at the end of practice and when I turned around Cole was CLIMBING up the net on the goal behind me. (He's not called 'Monkeyboy' for nothing) I send DD over to get him down since my arms were full with the babe and I coudn't exactly 'run' anywhere. My DH was on his way over at the same time DD was going across the field to her brother. Cole is on the net screaming his head off b/c he's stuck. And, some random woman is screaming (ok so I technically know her and she's the polar opposite of gentle) at the top of her lungs, "GET OFF THAT NET!!". I just yelled back "He's mine, Mrs. Hateful, and we're working on getting him down! THANK YOU!"

I have no idea what possessed him to do such a thing. He knows the nets are off limits to climb on. He said he just wanted to do it, which is probably the truth. My DH was beyond pissed. I didn't really do anything other than gripe a little on the way home and no tv before bed though. However, it sparked some discussion with DH & I last night. We have pretty much decided that we're out of ideas. Sadly funny, that is.

My thoughts are that Cole is very smart. Smart enough to weigh actions vs. consequence. If the consequences are something he can tolerate, he goes ahead with the action. And honestly, I don't know how to handle that. He definitely sets the tone in our house. It's all too visible when he's not here how much smoother & quieter things are. And y'know, the net incident, in and of itself is no biggie... it's just that it's one more thing on the list of things he isn't supposed to be doing. It's like he doesn't like the rules of this game we're playing and so he's gonna make up his own. And frankly, it sucks! And I don't like it. I don't like that his actions cause me to look like an incompetent parent. So here I go with the maybes.. maybe it is me, maybe I should've been more harsh, maybe I was too harsh, maybe I'm NOT as consistent as I thought I was... maybe, maybe, maybe. I just cannot for the life of me get him to understand that sometimes, just SOMETIMES, things cannot be his way. They just can't. That none of us are afforded that. Part of me says maybe he just hasn't reached that level of control yet and then I realize that he's the ONLY one of his siblings and peers that pulls this stuff and that in turn makes me say WTF?

I'm spent, mamas. Right now I dread what the day might have in store for me.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama*

As for the second my kids go to school and I hear nothing but compliments on how well-behaved they are. Not that they are like that at home







but they can behave if they need too. That is mostly a personality thing I think but maybe I did do something right.

I don't think that wild behavior is always a reflection on the parent-especially in younger kids but a lot of it does improve with age.

And with my challenging child, we DO have problems with his behavior at school, and possibly anywhere else we go. So I guess my child can't behave even when he needs to. He can tell you what he SHOULD be doing, but doing it is something completely different. Which is exactly how I got in this thread, lol. It may just be personality, but maybe I did do something wrong... I dunno.


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## kayjayjay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
The bottom line for her is that if she feels good, she is gentle and pleasant. If she's hitting, she doesn't feel good. Now, she also has to learn to control herself even when she doesn't feel good-we're working on that. That comes with time. And I have to admit, I haven't been a good role model for handling conflict and frustration. She learned to yell very well from watching me.








: We have a secret word now that anyone in the family can use to cue others to stop yelling (or hitting). It's a reminder, and a good one. We have a hand signal too. We decided on the particular word and hand signal in a family meeting. Now if we can just get even better at using it, and get dh to remember to use it....

This is so true of Sophie (she's the one that hits me). There are times that I can tell so clearly that she just doesn't feel well and she can't let me know what's wrong. It's very frustrating, and we've done all kinds of dietary changes that have helped, but we still have those moments.

I'm not the best role model either, and it really gets me when I see myself in her actions. Not the hitting, but the getting upset and blowing up when things aren't going my way.

emblmrgrl - I'm always asking myself when we have moments like your soccer practice (and we have them alot







) whether I'm just not strict enough. Sophia's behavior often appears to the average viewer like that of a stereotypical brat. When I'm more lucid, however, I really have to admit that being harsh just doesn't work. It backfires every time. And that isn't the way I want her to remember her childhood. In some way I feel like the key to dealing with her right now is just getting through the rough spots without hurting her trust in us. I spend a lot of time trying to appease her, and trying to convince myself that it's important to let her be who she is and to help her get what she needs. Just my random thoughts.


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## Magella

emblmrgrl,























I know, I think, what you mean about your son being smart enough to weigh the consequences vs. his satisfaction/desire/whatever. Sometimes I think my dd1 is this way, too. She once said, as I sent her to time-out for hitting, "I'm sorry, I didn't know I'd have to go to my room!" So her motivation was avoiding consequences. Frustrating. And some consequences seem to be worth it, as if she pays for her bad behavior by accepting the consequence so it's okay. This is how we came to let go of consequences that do not just sort of happen naturally, and focus now on communicating with her about feelings and needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kayjayjay*
I'm always asking myself when we have moments like your soccer practice (and we have them alot ) whether I'm just not strict enough. Sophia's behavior often appears to the average viewer like that of a stereotypical brat. When I'm more lucid, however, I really have to admit that being harsh just doesn't work. It backfires every time. And that isn't the way I want her to remember her childhood. In some way I feel like the key to dealing with her right now is just getting through the rough spots without hurting her trust in us.

Only another moment to type, but I have to say that I definitely feel the same way about my dd1. I have often wondered if I'm strict enough, but I'm learning that the key to parenting this child and helping her learn is to be very gentle, to focus on connection and trust and respect. Focusing on consequences is counterproductive, it's gotta be "gosh, climbing that soccer net really does seem fun. I admit, I'd like to climb it too. But if you climb it, the net could break and you could get hurt." My dd1 does much better when we acknowledge clearly that she is normal and okay for doing the things she does (not necessarily that her choices and actions themselves are okay, but that _she's_ okay), and then explain why this one thing isn't right/effective/a good idea and tell her what she _can_ do instead. It's all about learning to see things from her point of view, to accept her as she is (even when she's driving me up the wall and back down again), and to trust that eventually she'll learn so long as we do our best to communicate with her effectively and maintain (or rebuild) that strong bond between us.

It's not easy, though. It really isn't.

Oh, and I cannot stress enough how much it helps me to let go of worrying about what other people think of me based on my kids' behaviors. And that in turn helps my kids.

Bearsmama, thank you for your words. I want to respond but 1) it's time to rinse the tomato off my face and 2) it's time for me to get ds ready for swimming. (What an odd day, ds and dd2 playing independently so much I'm goofing off here and with my natural beauty book.)


----------



## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
emblmrgrl,























I know, I think, what you mean about your son being smart enough to weigh the consequences vs. his satisfaction/desire/whatever. Sometimes I think my dd1 is this way, too. She once said, as I sent her to time-out for hitting, "I'm sorry, I didn't know I'd have to go to my room!" So her motivation was avoiding consequences. Frustrating. And some consequences seem to be worth it, as if she pays for her bad behavior by accepting the consequence so it's okay. This is how we came to let go of consequences that do not just sort of happen naturally, and focus now on communicating with her about feelings and needs.

Yep, that's it. I've seen Cole do it many times. I think it's difficult for me many times because I feel like I'm doing nothing in response to his behavior. There really isn't a natural consequence to climbing on the soccer goal if it's not harmed or he doesn't injure himself. (Or am I off the mark?) Yet I feel compelled to do something. Also, school sets him up for the expectation of a consequence as well. Then there's my older one who also expects a repercussion for his behavior when he freaks out on her. Of course some of this is still new to her as we only took this route coming upon two years ago so alot of her being little was way different. So, for instance, if he hurts her and I talk to him about how he hurt his sister and we get to how he's gonna try to settle the issue before it gets that bad, etc., etc., SHE starts in on how I never do anything... that Cole never gets in trouble no matter what he did. If it's not making his life hell, she doesn't see it as enough, if you will. It makes for a really wacked out enviroment sometimes.

Quote:

Only another moment to type, but I have to say that I definitely feel the same way about my dd1. I have often wondered if I'm strict enough, but I'm learning that the key to parenting this child and helping her learn is to be very gentle, to focus on connection and trust and respect. Focusing on consequences is counterproductive, it's gotta be "gosh, climbing that soccer net really does seem fun. I admit, I'd like to climb it too. But if you climb it, the net could break and you could get hurt." My dd1 does much better when we acknowledge clearly that she is normal and okay for doing the things she does (not necessarily that her choices and actions themselves are okay, but that _she's_ okay), and then explain why this one thing isn't right/effective/a good idea and tell her what she _can_ do instead. It's all about learning to see things from her point of view, to accept her as she is (even when she's driving me up the wall and back down again), and to trust that eventually she'll learn so long as we do our best to communicate with her effectively and maintain (or rebuild) that strong bond between us.

It's not easy, though. It really isn't.
Maybe I just need to stick it out. I've tried to do as you described and although it has helped, and it truly has... goodness only knows what things would be like had we not taken another approach, it only helps some of the time. I may be expecting too much, still. Damn the expectations!

Quote:

Oh, and I cannot stress enough how much it helps me to let go of worrying about what other people think of me based on my kids' behaviors. And that in turn helps my kids.
I really wish I had a magic pill for this one. Truly, I do. We live in a really small town though and it's not so easy to ignore. Like, when Cole is climbing the railings on the bleachers at the basketball games, his principal is likely to be sitting right there watching her son play. The people we see out and about sometimes are in very close contact with him so it's not just random strangers. If it were just anyone, I wouldn't think twice about it. Maybe I should move.


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
I think it's difficult for me many times because I feel like I'm doing nothing in response to his behavior. There really isn't a natural consequence to climbing on the soccer goal if it's not harmed or he doesn't injure himself. (Or am I off the mark?) Yet I feel compelled to do something.

I struggle every day with feeling compelled to _do_ something. But I have found that what's more important with me and my kids is to _say_ something, yk? The natural consequence to climbing on the soccer goal, if it doesn't break and he isn't hurt, is the feeling he gets doing it (probably it's fun) and the response of others around him. Soooo, I have come to think that maybe it's not so important in cases like this that I do something as it is that I respond in a clear, compassionate manner. One that says "absolutely I do not approve of this" and "I understand, and I will help you." YK? But it's hard, because it's so very different from what is practiced in the culture at large and because it's so different from how I was raised. It's hard to learn, and it's hard to do something that leaves everyone around you thinking you're not doing anything-even if it has been extremely effective when I manage to remember to do it.

Quote:

Also, school sets him up for the expectation of a consequence as well.








Yet another feature of school that I deeply philosophically disagree with. Ahhh, but I don't have the confidence to homeschool.

Quote:

Maybe I just need to stick it out. I've tried to do as you described and although it has helped, and it truly has... goodness only knows what things would be like had we not taken another approach, it only helps some of the time. I may be expecting too much, still. Damn the expectations!
I also struggle with keeping realistic expectations. I get caught up in expecting immediate results, or consistent results, or in the idea that undesirable behavior will end permanently, for example. When I'm calm and aware and accepting, I see that the results that are most satisfying are the results of connection and trust and I see that my children's growth and learning is a slow process-and they are progressing, it's just that for dd1 it's baby steps. And the things we struggle with are so....well, they just push my buttons so much that it's hard to keep perspective. She really is so much more intense and sensitive than my other kids, she's just sort of wired a little differently. I have raved at times about how much easier life with her has gotten, but it's still really tough sometimes. She still hits her siblings, she just screamed and cried for an hour (hence, me being here for a breather) and I don't know why (not really, she hurt her brother and I refused to let her play until I was confident she'd be safe-it's this limit that triggered this episode, which was probably ? just a release of stored up stuff) and now she's smiling and playing nicely.

Quote:

We live in a really small town though and it's not so easy to ignore. Like, when Cole is climbing the railings on the bleachers at the basketball games, his principal is likely to be sitting right there watching her son play. The people we see out and about sometimes are in very close contact with him so it's not just random strangers. If it were just anyone, I wouldn't think twice about it.
Yep. That's hard. I feel under a microscope around the inlaws or other people we're frequently in contact with. I am slowly learning not to give a crap what they think, though, and focus on how much more important my relationship with my kids is. And it is much more important than what a bunch of people think, teachers or principals or whomever they might be. But it's hard. I remember posting maybe a year ago about how my dd1 was hitting and screaming and throwing things at the inlaws' home every time we went there. I used to handle it pretty well while we were there, but bottled up all this embarrassment and frustration and exasperation. Then I'd lecture dd1 all the way home, and we'd all be miserable. It was just awful.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I used to handle it pretty well while we were there, but bottled up all this embarrassment and frustration and exasperation. Then I'd lecture dd1 all the way home, and we'd all be miserable. It was just awful.

That is so me, sledg.

I'm trying to remove myself from the sibling relationship and let them solve their issues, barring physical stuff, and I guess I just have to stay on that path. Eventually they'll stop running to me to solve stuff, right? LOL As for Cole, I totally get how it's better but still tough sometimes. That's where I am with him. He, like you described your DD, just seems wired differently than my other kids. I know he's teaching me lots that I don't see right now, and some that I do, but I'm not sure I like the method he's using!









Thanks for listening, ladies.


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## Magella

My turn to vent a bit...








So the tantrum saga from last night continues. Another hour of freaking out, crying and screaming. Dd woke this morning, asked to stay in bed until breakfast, then snuck downstairs to hide just so that when dh went up to get her he wouldn't find her then she could surprise him by being downstairs. Fun game, yeah? The problem was, dh saw her hiding behind a chair before he went up, and he was surprised and laughed and was playful.....and dd1 completely freaked out, crying and yelling about how he was supposed to be surpised and not see her till he went upstairs. It just escalated and escalated, and she wouldn't let me speak to her or touch her or in any way try to help her. She can't even eat, she's so upset, and I think a big part of this is hunger diminishing her capacity to cope yk? So then I'm completely frustrated...I mean, what else is there to do but just stop interacting when she won't let me do anything? But dh cannot tolerate just listening to it (and frankly, I barely can either, it took more effort than most people can know for me to not yell at her) and he doesn't want to end up yelling any more than I do and he can't talk to her either, so he brings her up to her room where she stays and screams for awhile. Then he invites her back downstairs and she's calmer but still basically nasty to everyone when she speaks until finally she decides to eat. At this point she's upset b/c dh has to leave for work and she missed breakfast with him. So he leaves and then suddenly after eating she's fine and wants to watch tv. So I said not yet, we haven't talked about any of this. So she finally lets me hug her and she sits on my lap and she has no interest in talking about her feelings or whatever, so I talked about appropriate ways to handle feeling frustrated and disappointed and how she felt when her game didn't go as she wanted. And she's just "I want to watch tv" b/c that's what her brother was doing. So nothing feels resolved in any way to me. We haven't had an episode like this in a long time. It seems to come out of the blue (of course it doesn't, it's just that I'm not a mind-reader and she can't or won't express the reasons-maybe she doesn't know, maybe things have just piled up, I don't know), and it's just awful to have no idea how you can possibly help your child and to have to just sort of go about your business listening to it b/c there is just nothing else to do. And maybe that would be fine if I felt like talking about it afterward helped her in any way, but I don't know that it does. It's like talking to a wall. It's just sometimes so easy to feel like I can reach her, and other times it seems impossible.

One step forward, seven steps back. That's what it feels like sometimes. Just when I start feeling a little comfortable and *gasp* a little confident in my parenting, the rug gets pulled out from under so I'll stay humble. I know tomorrow will be better. At least I hope it is.


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
And with my challenging child, we DO have problems with his behavior at school, and possibly anywhere else we go. So I guess my child can't behave even when he needs to. He can tell you what he SHOULD be doing, but doing it is something completely different. Which is exactly how I got in this thread, lol. It may just be personality, but maybe I did do something wrong... I dunno.

I don't think you did anything wrong, you just have a super-challenging child.


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## Magella

I'm baaaaa-aaaaack! And I just have to say this:
*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG GHHHHHHH!!!*
Why, why, why did I ever think it would be a good idea to have 3 children? (Cue immediate guilt, upon looking at my beautiful children, for ever thinking this.) I am just not good at this. Not when it gets like this.

So. Dd1 has a slight fever. She's sick. Shoulda known. She's unpleasant today (still, continuing from this morning's tribulations which I posted about before). She hit ds again, and I'm not talking a little slap but a real punch in the arm with force. The kind of thing that's dangerous. So I would not allow her to play with the other kids until she was calm and had a plan for controlling herself. Cue tantrum. At least it wasn't too bad, I handled it pretty well (sort of). Ignored a lot of stuff, maintained my limit of not playing with the others while she was clearly unsafe (some of you might know "the look" a kid has that says they're just not ready to be safe) and just kept repeating "I'm done talking about it" now and then as she begged. She gave up finally, asked nicely if I'd play a game and I said "yes, just remember I might have to take a break to help ds or dd2 because it's just me here with all of you." Later when she was ready she made her plan, I reminded her of the secret word, and she went back to play, but then she and ds began fighting. I am trying to stay out of their fights unless physical aggression is involved, so it got really noisy. At the same time dd2 (2 years old) spills milk on herself and begins flipping out as only 2 year olds can do-screaming, writhing on the floor. At this point, heavy metal concerts are quieter than my home. Called dh: "hell calling, will you accept the charges?" Cue ds to hit dd1. Get off phone. Remove ds to cozy corner until he's ready to be safe. Help him (b/c this really works with him) while dd2 is screaming in my ear (b/c I tried to wash her up, which she wanted until I tried then behaved as though water burns when I touched her skin with the cloth). Ds ready to play safely. Go to help dd2. Fighting resumes. Mom says, finally, "do you all remember last night, when everyone was screaming and fighting and I had to keep you safe and I didn't cook dinner, so you had to eat just oatmeal before and didn't eat with daddy?" I guess they like to eat a nice dinner with dad, because they have (temporarily) become peaceful once more. Mom, on the other hand, is rather frazzled. So I'm here (while children play all around me) typing it all out for you to slog through the next time you check this thread, monopolizing it completely for now to display my saga for all to enjoy, because aside from dh only you ladies understand the depths of the difficulty I face sometimes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
It's so hard to get away from treating and focusing on the challenging one. I can only imagine that that challenge increases ten-fold (or more!) with each child. I think it was the first psychologist that we met with about Bears that said that kids that have symptoms of what Bears could have down the line (ADD/ADHD) usually have challenging behaviors b/c of this issue AND b/c of their differences their families have altered their lives-their daily lives to better parent that one child. So it's a combination of things. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine that your challenging DD has demanded a certain amount of attention. And that on many, many levels it hasn't really been a choice, per se, to treat her the same as the other kids. Like with Bears, since he was tiny we've altered things about our lives, where we would go, etc., to meet his needs. Then, on some level this child expects this.

Yep, it hasn't been a choice to treat her the same as the other kids. Altering everything, questioning everything, has been a matter of survival for both her and us. And I'm sure she does expect it to some extent and on some level, this accomodation. And she really does need it in many ways and at many times. It's tricky, though, to meet the needs of everyone else at the same time. But I guess that would be true in any family with more than one child. What is more problematic, in a way and in my mind, is the amount of time I spend preoccupied with how to handle her. YK? This is hard to describe. An example would be that ds is home either all day, or for the afternoon after preschool, and at some point instead of being present with him I'm thinking I should get this and that done so I can spend some focused time with dd1 when she gets home so she relaxes and we have a good afternoon (b/c without this her after-school behavior is...you know). So I have this boy in front of me but I'm preoccupied with getting ready for dd1 to come home rather than actually really being there with my boy. Or dd1's having an episode and I'm all there being supportive and whatnot, totally focused on dd1 while the other kids are there too and I'm ignoring them. I think it might be helpful to all of us to let some of this go, to let her learn to cope on her own a little more while letting her know I'm there, to let go of arranging everything in life around her to the exclusion of others in the family. There has to be some middle ground, some more balanced way to meet her needs while meeting her siblings' needs as well. Does that make any sense?

Okay, I guess I should go get ready for dinner (which I just found out dh is bringing home along with the groceries he's getting on the way home from work, I *LOVE* that man!







). Thanks for being here to listen. I know I write the such long posts.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I'm baaaaa-aaaaack! And I just have to say this:
*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG GHHHHHHH!!!*
Why, why, why did I ever think it would be a good idea to have 3 children? (Cue immediate guilt, upon looking at my beautiful children, for ever thinking this.) I am just not good at this. Not when it gets like this.

Sledg























I have hugs to give today because you helped me yesterday! That, and I left the boys with their dad today and took off with my DD & my little guy to DD's soccer game. It was so normal I almost didn't come back... Well not really, but a couple more hours would've technically been a vacation for me.

Quote:

Yep, it hasn't been a choice to treat her the same as the other kids. Altering everything, questioning everything, has been a matter of survival for both her and us. And I'm sure she does expect it to some extent and on some level, this accomodation. And she really does need it in many ways and at many times. It's tricky, though, to meet the needs of everyone else at the same time. But I guess that would be true in any family with more than one child. What is more problematic, in a way and in my mind, is the amount of time I spend preoccupied with how to handle her. YK? This is hard to describe. An example would be that ds is home either all day, or for the afternoon after preschool, and at some point instead of being present with him I'm thinking I should get this and that done so I can spend some focused time with dd1 when she gets home so she relaxes and we have a good afternoon (b/c without this her after-school behavior is...you know). So I have this boy in front of me but I'm preoccupied with getting ready for dd1 to come home rather than actually really being there with my boy. Or dd1's having an episode and I'm all there being supportive and whatnot, totally focused on dd1 while the other kids are there too and I'm ignoring them. I think it might be helpful to all of us to let some of this go, to let her learn to cope on her own a little more while letting her know I'm there, to let go of arranging everything in life around her to the exclusion of others in the family. There has to be some middle ground, some more balanced way to meet her needs while meeting her siblings' needs as well. *Does that make any sense?*
Absolutely. I think that is one area that I've gone the opposite in, in some ways. For us, Cole doesn't always get enough time with us and I feel as though more time focused on him would be helpful. BUT, and here's the big but, I cannot justify taking time away from the others and I think that may be one reason he's so hard for me. If it were just him, I'd be great. Cole throws us in a tailspin in much the same way you deal with, but I have less concious thought about how to ward off some things. And even still, Cole manages to make things all about him in the end.

Quote:

Okay, I guess I should go get ready for dinner (which I just found out dh is bringing home along with the groceries he's getting on the way home from work, I *LOVE* that man!







). Thanks for being here to listen. I know I write the such long posts.
How sweet of him! And I, for one, love your long posts.


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## MsMoMpls

Dear dear Sledg and all... not much time but couldn't read without poping in for a hug.









Hey- I just blew a tire and changed it in clogs in a snow bank and I wouldn't trade my night yours... you actually made my Saturday night look better.









Just hang in there and don't kill them- thats all I have, really. Nate and I were talking about how rageful he was and how hard he was to manage and he hasn't got a clue what it was or what happened.

Today I spoke to a room full of parents who have adopted special needs children. I spoke to them about the wonderful power of mothering. I shared what we all share here. It felt so fantastic and you would think I was speaking in tongues... they were blown away by hearing how "irreverant" I am about therapy and psychologists but I think mostly they just loved having me tell them how powerful I think they are to chose (and all children are chosen so this goes for you all, too) to love and hold on to kids that push every button.

Yesterday I heard about older teenagers who are looking to be adopted in these last few years before they turn 18 and all they want is a mom. A mom- the most powerful force of nature... like oxygen, you don't really know how important it is until it isn't there.

Just love and mother and hang in there... your children are so blessed.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-






























You know, I still don't know how to do the quoting thing too well here, but I'll just start. First, I just have to say that I'm so sorry your past day or so has been so sucky. That's the right word for it, right? Sucky? And I don't have much time tonight, but I needed to tell you (and I'm not just telling you this b/c you've had such a crappy day) that I am continually impressed with your parenting, your THOUGHTFUL parenting. You are thinking about things that many, many mamas do not. How do I meet everyone's needs? How do I meet my challenging kid's needs without ignoring my other children?

This isn't about me, but I have to say that last weekend I had a few friends here for brunch. These are close friends of mine, all very different, but very in tune with their kids' needs. One of my friends was brought to tears just talking about the struggle her son is having with transitioning to preschool. Well, that brought me to tears b/c I was looking around the table and realized that I was surrounded by 4 women who all care deeply about their children and their parenting. And how that is soooo beautiful. We often just hear about the bad parents, and the kids who are products of really bad parenting (I'm not talking about mistakes, I'm talking about neglect, abuse, etc). And to think that I have two places-IRL and here (and really, honestly, especially here) where I can be surrounded by thoughtful, caring women who love and respect their children and talk, worry, and fret about their own parenting as much as we all do, well, that's pretty amazing.

sledg-I really like what Maureen says, as usual. Don't kill them. And I remember something else that Maureen said to me one time about overparenting. sledg-I'm not saying YOU'RE doing this, but I *DO* think that it's okay to not care SOOOO much sometimes. You know, not flip out, but not worry so much. I know, much easier said than done. And of course, I'm able to say this b/c my last few days have been okay. (Except for the one that ended in a small tub of ice cream). It's easy to try to speak eloquently about rough parenting moments when you're parenting moments of the day have not been as hard. YKWIM?

Anyway, I am rambling here. I just want you to know, sledg, that as always, I can feel that emotion in your posts and I so respect you and your parenting and your enormous love for your children. And you know what? Maybe sometimes there is no way to meet everyone's needs. Like, maybe it's not about being balanced. Clearly, with your DD and our other challenging kids the scales are often tipped in their direction. And maybe that's okay. Or maybe, at least, that's okay sometimes? I don't know. Maybe they all end up getting what they need with just a little bit of thought on our part. So, if a little extra effort makes a difference, our children are going to be fantastic adults!









Okay, I didn't really explain myself well here. But I love you all and you've all given me so much. I really mean that. And you, sledg, especially. I'll try to think of something more profound to say and write more asap. But just LOVE for now...


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## TEAK's Mom

Oh sledg, I so completely understand that kind of day. The fact that you didn't just sit down on the floor and scream with her attests to your strength as a mama. I absolutely hate it when hunger makes a tantrum blow completely out of proportion. TEAK went through an entire year where every single morning began with dh and me placing bets about whether or not the time bomb would blow and just how big the explosion would be. If we could get her up and get her "cocoa" (milk with a little ovaltine) down quickly, the morning was fine. If ANYTHING happened or distracted her and she didn't drink it right away, she screamed for an hour. I'm so glad that that finally passed.

I am celebrating today because I had the first break I've had in weeks. I got to leave the house and start the process of shopping for a cheap couch ALL BY MYSELF. After the whole Florida trip for grandpa's funeral, we got home and TEAK started vomitting. ABKA and dh joined in the next morning. I spent three days doing very little but cleaning up puke (hence the need for a new couch) and calming panic. Then, the minute he felt better, dh booked it back to the office leaving me with the still miserable kids. I understand that he already lost a week at the busiest time of year, but oh, I felt bitter, especially since we had 60 mph winds and chill to 20 below so we couldn't go much of anywhere for distraction. By Friday, I was a raving b*^&. I am proud that I didn't yell at anyone.

So, back to current topics. It is so hard to strike a balance between children and their different needs. I mostly write here about TEAK, but ABKA is proving to be very much like her sister. At 18 months, she is letting rip with the touchiness, screaming, and frustration. Here's the amazing thing, though: TEAK actually notices and makes accomdations for her sister's sensitivities. It blows me away when she says, like she did this afternoon, "I think ABKA is getting really frustrated, mama, I think we should turn on her favorite cd to calm her down." Even more amazing, IT WORKED! Sometimes, she's a little scary.









Wow, I don't think I've ever had this long to complete a post.


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## emblmrgrl

Just had to run in this morning to share something good ... as I said last night, I was out all morning yesterday with my DD while DH had the twins. We ALL, 'cept the babe, got a bit of a sunburn and were worn out so we snacked for dinner. I went in to help Cole pick up his room and he was clearly just pooped from his busy day. He slept all night ... yay! no watching tv @ 2am. THAT is HUGE for us.

So this morning, I cooked a nice breakfast. Cole was sucked into the tv though when I called everyone to come eat so I had to call him about three times. When he finally came to the kitchen, I was trying to help him fix his plate and he was REALLY short with me. I finally said in response to one of his answers, "I'm sorry Cole. I'm not psychic and I don't know what of this stuff you want to eat so you're gonna have to tell me. Please try not to be so hateful to me." He says in a somewhat better tone, "Sorry Mama, I don't feel good. I told you last night I didn't feel good.". Of course I said that was fine and that I'd been hoping sleeping had made him feel better. It was just so nice to have him TELL me what was wrong instead of having to guess or walk on eggshells all morning so as not to upset him.

Here's to hoping this is a good day all day.


----------



## Magella

Just popping in to say, first, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!!








I wish you were all my neighbors.

Second, we are all still alive! And we are smiling! I managed to somehow find the humor in it all last night, then when dh got home we had a very late dinner, dh had the kids roaring with laughter, and we got them all in bed at 9:00 with dh and I just beaming over what a great dinner it was. Today, despite dh having to meet a friend who is desperately in need of support for lunch rather than be with us all day, the kids are great. They just had a picnic together in the living room, dd1 was solving disputes like a diplomat, everyone is loving and smiling and wonderful.

I have so much I want to say! But now is not the time. Just this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
sledg-I'm not saying YOU'RE doing this, but I *DO* think that it's okay to no care SOOOO much sometimes. You know, not flip out, but not worry so much.

This makes so much sense. Will try to remember this.

I also really love Maureen's advice to just love them and not kill them!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And you know what? Maybe sometimes there is no way to meet everyone's needs. Like, maybe it's not about being balanced. Clearly, with your DD and our other challenging kids the scales are often tipped in their direction. And maybe that's okay. Or maybe, at least, that's okay sometimes? I don't know. Maybe they all end up getting what they need with just a little bit of thought on our part.

Oh, wise mama!







I think you're right. I haven't thought of it that way before.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
Here's the amazing thing, though: TEAK actually notices and makes accomdations for her sister's sensitivities. It blows me away when she says, like she did this afternoon, "I think ABKA is getting really frustrated, mama, I think we should turn on her favorite cd to calm her down." Even more amazing, IT WORKED! Sometimes, she's a little scary.

Beautiful! You know, there's this beautiful flip side to having such sensitive, challenging kids. It's sometimes easy to get caught up in the difficult stuff, and for a little while forget that the difficult stuff is really just part of who they are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
He says in a somewhat better tone, "Sorry Mama, I don't feel good. I told you last night I didn't feel good." It was just so nice to have him TELL me what was wrong instead of having to guess or walk on eggshells all morning so as not to upset him.

Again, beautiful! It's amazing to me how big an achievment it is when my dd1 can actually express to me what she's feeling. I never in a million years thought this type of thing would be such a huge triumph and relief.

GTG. Thanks again!


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## Bearsmama

Oh, sledg-I'm so happy that things turned around for you last night.







Maybe that's the beauty of the whole thing-that these horrible moments are sweetened and made okay by these moments of transcendence. I really think that's what it is-transcendence. Doesn't it feel that way? Like, when Bears has me ready to throw him and myself out the window, an hour later, or maybe later that night, there are these moments of love and beauty in our family, of humor, and honesty that never fail to blow me away. sledg-You know, I love how all of the posters here can rally around a mama when she needs it. And I just want you to know that I never feel that I have the answers to anything. I'm just putting out there to you what seems less muddy, less murky, in those clearer moments. And I'll know that I'll be in murky waters again soon.







:

Speaking of murkier waters, just tonight, we came in from the ILs and all was well; the little one was sleeping, Bears was ready for a quick bath and then bed. Well, DH went up the stairs ahead of Bears with a sleeping little one in his arms. I was behind Bears. All of a sudden, Bears starts to bawl, just sobbing and screaming. I can't even get him to calm down enough to tell me what's wrong. I keep saying, you're going to wake your brother. What is wrong? Can you tell me? Well, he says that he didn't want daddy to go up the stairs ahead of him. That HE wanted to be the first up the stairs.I'm trying to get him to calm down, and also trying to get him to not wake his brother. Of course, he woke his brother from a dead sleep. I was pissed, and this was all b/c he refused to tell me with his words what was wrong. All b/c of the flippin' stairs. Our little sensitive, snarky, nudges.









emblm-Walking on eggshells, changes our environments constantly for these challenging children of ours is really, really, hard stuff. The little moments when they can verbalize things in a better way, are really not little acheivements for our kids or our families. Congrats on your morning.

TEAKS-Maybe your parenting is teaching more to TEAKS than you realize. She is able to try to communicate for her sister. That's pretty huge. Kind of the opposite of those moments when we hear a foul word come out of their mouths and think,







. If we take responsibility for the bad times or bad moments (whether right or wrong), then maybe, just maybe, we can take some credit sometimes for the good stuff.


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## Mickiswing

I haven't posted again since my first one, mostly because we had a couple decent days and I wanted to enjoy them instead of jumping on here and interrupting things for us. I'm not sure why they were better, but I have a few ideas. (Since baby 3 PMS has been awful for me. Sheesh)

The last couple days I've kinda been keeping to myself, I guess. DS with autism has developed a couple new traits I'm worried about. And we've got a little while before we can start his therapy program. When he gets upset or excited, he now pinches his cheeks until they're bright red. I'm at a loss for what to do about it.

We brought the baby in our room last week to see if it would help our 2.5 yr old dd. We thought maybe the baby was waking her at night and she was always tired. Unfortunately, there wasn't much of a change, except that DH and I were even more tired. I woke up every time the baby moved at all.

Anyhow, I gotta run, but here's to a great week!


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Oh, sledg-I'm so happy that things turned around for you last night.







Maybe that's the beauty of the whole thing-that these horrible moments are sweetened and made okay by these moments of transcendence. I really think that's what it is-transcendence. Doesn't it feel that way? Like, when Bears has me ready to throw him and myself out the window, an hour later, or maybe later that night, there are these moments of love and beauty in our family, of humor, and honesty that never fail to blow me away.

Transcendence. It does feel like that sometimes.
And these difficult times and the sweeter times are all sides of the same coin, really. Without one, we wouldn't truly appreciate the other. Without both, I think we wouldn't feel and learn and grow as...deeply, wholly, expansively. It is knowing without question that either state (joy or sorrow, struggle or ease...) will end, and then return again in natural cycle that gets me through the more difficult times and helps me bear the inevitable ends to the good times. YK? Nature, life, in all it's transient glory.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Speaking of murkier waters, just tonight, we came in from the ILs and all was well; the little one was sleeping, Bears was ready for a quick bath and then bed. Well, DH went up the stairs ahead of Bears with a sleeping little one in his arms. I was behind Bears. All of a sudden, Bears starts to bawl, just sobbing and screaming. I can't even get him to calm down enough to tell me what's wrong. I keep saying, you're going to wake your brother. What is wrong? Can you tell me? Well, he says that he didn't want daddy to go up the stairs ahead of him. That HE wanted to be the first up the stairs.I'm trying to get him to calm down, and also trying to get him to not wake his brother. Of course, he woke his brother from a dead sleep. I was pissed, and this was all b/c he refused to tell me with his words what was wrong. All b/c of the flippin' stairs. Our little sensitive, snarky, nudges.









I have been through situations just like that. And I always hear this little voice that says I'm making excuses for my child when I say this, but I think that sometimes the emotion comes on so suddenly and washes over them so completely and intensely that they just can't say anything about it. I think of those times when I've been so overcome by emotion that I can't put words to it (well, of course I don't think of that in the heat of the moment often enough-mostly in hindsight). It's frustrating on either end, the person feeling but not able to say and the person trying to understand. Before becoming a parent, I never thought of sensitivity as something that could be so challenging.

Micki,







I'm glad you had some good days, and I'm sorry to hear you've had some tough things going on these last days. I have had noticeable (okay, horrid) PMS for the first time in my life, starting just after my third baby was born. I feel like I'm losing my mind the last few days to a week before my period. It's tough, it affects the whole family. Those third babies throw you for a loop in so many ways!

Take care all!


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## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Transcendence. It does feel like that sometimes.
And these difficult times and the sweeter times are all sides of the same coin, really. Without one, we wouldn't truly appreciate the other. Without both, I think we wouldn't feel and learn and grow as...deeply, wholly, expansively. It is knowing without question that either state (joy or sorrow, struggle or ease...) will end, and then return again in natural cycle that gets me through the more difficult times and helps me bear the inevitable ends to the good times. YK? Nature, life, in all it's transient glory.

I hope I quoted this okay. But MAN, sledg, I love this. So beautiful. So true. So lovely. And so much the way I think about my life. I really do see the beauty in the grey areas. I really do. It's the yin & yang. But of course, all that doesn't mean that it's easy to know when the storms will pass, when the change will happen.

And speaking of change...I am stuck in these patterns of reaction over here. And I just hate it. I used to go on a lot of tirades, but that has changed. But I have been doing the short yell of Bear's name. Or the short, shrill scream. I have no idea why I'm resorting to this lately. Also, when the kids don't sleep or aren't ready to sleep, I really think I'm going to lose my mind. I want to run screaming from the house. And I can see this reaction in myself coming, like watching a slow train, and sometimes I still feel powerless to stop it. Which is so stupid, b/c I know the power lies within me. Bears and the little one took rare, late naps this afternoon and they were both incredibly rammy and not ready for sleep-even at 9:30! My little one was climbing all over me, with my boob still in his mouth. Bears was just biding his time with me until he could ask for daddy to help him (this happens every so often). I end up being so mean, so abrupt. Instead of breathing, or just accepting. I get caught up in all my old patterns of reactions.







: Thanks for letting me vent, as always. This one ain't even about my challenging kid. It's just about his challenging mother!


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## TEAK's Mom

sledg, you are so right. I think that if my children were easier, I would not appreciate the perfect moments for what they are. If I didn't have meltdown queens, I'd never understand calm.

Micki, I just wanted to say hi. I tend not to get much in the way of computer time and so my posts tend to be very self-centered, but I do read and think about all of the ladies here. You are very welcome and we very much value your thoughts and offer support.

Bears, your last post described perfectly the way I feel when dh is supposed to be home at a particular point and is late. Some days, my patience is rationed down to the last minute. I need to learn to keep some always in reserve.

Anyway, hugs to all.


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-Oh, I hear you soo loud and clear on the rationing of the patience. Man, somedays, I got nuthin' left.

And Micki-Ditto what TEAKS says. I've been a bit remiss with the welcoming and love to the newer posters here. I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time right now. And btw, I've had horrible PMS and really bad periods in general since baby #2. I'm considering making an appointment to see my NP about it. My moods have been off the charts during PMS. You are not alone.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And speaking of change...I am stuck in these patterns of reaction over here. And I just hate it. I used to go on a lot of tirades, but that has changed. But I have been doing the short yell of Bear's name. Or the short, shrill scream. I have no idea why I'm resorting to this lately. Also, when the kids don't sleep or aren't ready to sleep, I really think I'm going to lose my mind. I want to run screaming from the house. And I can see this reaction in myself coming, like watching a slow train, and sometimes I still feel powerless to stop it. Which is so stupid, b/c I know the power lies within me. Bears and the little one took rare, late naps this afternoon and they were both incredibly rammy and not ready for sleep-even at 9:30! My little one was climbing all over me, with my boob still in his mouth. Bears was just biding his time with me until he could ask for daddy to help him (this happens every so often). I end up being so mean, so abrupt. Instead of breathing, or just accepting. I get caught up in all my old patterns of reactions.







: Thanks for letting me vent, as always. This one ain't even about my challenging kid. It's just about his challenging mother!









I'm just so glad to know other women struggling with this. I have improved so much, but there are still times I get stuck in those old patterns and, like you, feel powerless to stop it. Even though I know I have the power to change it or stop it, and even though I know it's a relatively simple thing-just letting go. (Simple does not=easy, though, does it?) I do try to refrain from beating myself up about it, b/c I think it's just not easy to make such huge changes and it takes a lot of practice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
This one ain't even about my challenging kid. It's just about his challenging mother!









I hear ya.


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## Mickiswing

Thanks for the welcomes and hugs everyone. I'm sending big hugs back your way as well! All I can spare!

I feel like I'm spinning these last couple weeks and my brain is just not functioning. I know there are changes we're going to have to try to make and keep trying until things improve. But do you ever get frustrated by investing time and energy on something new and it not working? For instance, I've been trying to go to bed earlier, then get up before the kids do, get in a workout and a shower before they need me. Theoretically, it might help if I were a little more organized in the morning. This is really difficult for me, since I really treasure the little time I get in the evenings to do something for me. It's really hard to give up. Well, so far it hasn't made one bit of difference. And to be honest, I'd rather get a little more sleep in the morning than get up and workout. I need the rest. So, the sacrifice for even less sleep, for absolutely no reward, makes me upset.

Yesterday I dropped Jackson and Evie off at my friend Jen's house while I ran a couple errands. Jen said they were perfectly behaved the whole time I was gone. Good manners, they were sharing well and were patient. The minute I showed up Evie started whining and Jackson started yelling at her. Jackson was fine while we were getting ready to go, but he didn't want me to put my shoes on, so he threw a tantrum. I was so frustrated. He was trying to run out of the door and my shoes were behind the door, but he was screaming so loud he couldn't hear a word I said. I was holding Charlie, and Evie was crying because Jackson was yelling. I ended up having to pick him up under his armpit, and restrain him against a couch with my leg so I could get my shoes. When I finally got everyone strapped in the car, Jackson started crying because he didn't want to go home. Once we got home, I sat him down and tried talking him through it, but he started screaming louder when I started talking, and by now, Evie and Charlie were so upset they were both getting wound up. I ended up closing the gate in his room and tried tending to them. Two minutes later, Jackson came around the corner. Apparently he can get over the gate. I was ready to give up. I told Jackson that he needed to go back in his room until he was ready to be happy, and then he said, "Mommy, help please. Make happy sounds."

I was shocked he has never before asked for help to calm down. It's usually the opposite. He usually wants his space and lots of it. Dan called to say he was working late, so we ended up having a half-wit dinner. The kids had whole wheat crackers, cheese, apples, carrots and toast. I wasn't about to fight yet another battle yesterday. Evie went to bed early and was asleep by 6:30 and Jackson followed at 7.

Later that night, to ice the cake, my blender batter waffles exploded everywhere (the baking soda reacted with something) and shorted out the blender, and our dryer broke. And at 10:30 Charlie started throwing up. She seems okay today, but her stomach has been very sensitive since her bout with rotavirus. It was a wonderful day. Ugh.

Today has been a little better behaviorally, but I'm very discouraged. I went to a progress meeting at Jackson's school and he's doing amazing there. He uses the potty with little to no help, and rarely has any meltdowns. I'm thrilled that he doing well, but I'm finding it very hard not to take it personally. I work SO hard to help things go smoothly at home for what? A kick in the pants it seems like. Only to have him to with strangers and behave like the perfect child. It's not been implied, but the way I'm feeling, you may have well just said to me, "You're a terrible mother. Your kids do better with anyone else than you. They don't even like you. What good are you doing?"

I feel like I'm just wasting my time most days. Why am I making food that no one eats? It's not that it's bad food, or that they don't like it. They just won't eat it for me. And why am I even trying to keep things peaceful here. It makes me exhausted, it isn't working and they do better when I'm not around. But I don't feel good about just sitting around and doing nothing either. There's no winning here. In our house, there isn't even compromising.

I would love a change, but I don't know how to do it and don't know if I have the reserves to do it. Sometimes I wonder if I just need to tell someone else to make the decisions for me and I'll do it. Just don't ask me to decide or think about it.

Quote:

I'm just so glad to know other women struggling with this. I have improved so much, but there are still times I get stuck in those old patterns and, like you, feel powerless to stop it. Even though I know I have the power to change it or stop it, and even though I know it's a relatively simple thing-just letting go. (Simple does not=easy, though, does it?) I do try to refrain from beating myself up about it, b/c I think it's just not easy to make such huge changes and it takes a lot of practice.
Sledg, I completely understand. I know the only thing I can change is my reaction. I know it's true, but I REALLY HATE IT when people say that to me. On bad days it feels like they're saying, "Deal with it and shut up." These old patterns are horrible habits. Like I'm an alcoholic and I've fallen off the wagon. And the guilt is just awful.


----------



## Magella

Micki,









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
I know there are changes we're going to have to try to make and keep trying until things improve. But do you ever get frustrated by investing time and energy on something new and it not working?

Heck, yes!







Spent years in that cycle, trying new thing after new thing and none of it working.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
For instance, I've been trying to go to bed earlier, then get up before the kids do, get in a workout and a shower before they need me. Theoretically, it might help if I were a little more organized in the morning. This is really difficult for me, since I really treasure the little time I get in the evenings to do something for me. It's really hard to give up. Well, so far it hasn't made one bit of difference. And to be honest, I'd rather get a little more sleep in the morning than get up and workout. I need the rest. So, the sacrifice for even less sleep, for absolutely no reward, makes me upset.

So, you're wanting to get up early so you can take care of yourself before the kids are up? And you're hoping this will help by either giving you time to actually get it done (b/c there's no other time to do it?) or to get it done in peace so you can enjoy it? Personally, when I face situations like this I try to stop and reevaluate what's really important to me, what I really need. I have had this fantasy of getting up early to shower and meditate, b/c during the day meditating is not possible and at night after the kids are asleep I'll just fall asleep meditating (that is, if dh isn't distracting me from meditating in the first place-we have too much fun together, we don't stop talking). And meditating, practicing mindfulness in this formal way, is something I think can really help me bring more mindfulness to my parenting (which is what has helped me so much, and I'd like to continue to get better at it). But the reality is that I really need all the sleep I can get (lack of sleep negatively impacts my ability to parent well), so at this point getting up early just isn't what meets my needs. So instead of meditating in quiet, I try to turn the whole day into one giant mindfulness practice. Just tossing that out there. I've learned to be a lot less frustrated by life by reevaluating and reframing and practicing being more aware.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
I was shocked he has never before asked for help to calm down. It's usually the opposite. He usually wants his space and lots of it.

I think this is neat. It's just so neat when kids are finally able to ask for the help they need. It's neat when it's so different from what you're used to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
so we ended up having a half-wit dinner. The kids had whole wheat crackers, cheese, apples, carrots and toast.

Sounds like a healthy enough dinner to me. Veggies, grain, protein, fruit. I served Pizza Rolls one night last week. Just pizza rolls. Microwaved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
I'm thrilled that he doing well, but I'm finding it very hard not to take it personally. I work SO hard to help things go smoothly at home for what? A kick in the pants it seems like. Only to have him to with strangers and behave like the perfect child. It's not been implied, but the way I'm feeling, you may have well just said to me, "You're a terrible mother. Your kids do better with anyone else than you. They don't even like you. What good are you doing?"









Ah, I think we've all felt that way at times. Really, it's normal for kids to behave so beautifully away from home. Home is where you can safely freak out. You are exactly the mother your children need and want. You are not a terrible mother. You are human.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
I would love a change, but I don't know how to do it and don't know if I have the reserves to do it. Sometimes I wonder if I just need to tell someone else to make the decisions for me and I'll do it. Just don't ask me to decide or think about it.

I have felt exactly this way at times. But only I can do it. Moms need help and support to do it though.


----------



## hipem

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mickiswing*
... but I'm finding it very hard not to take it personally. I work SO hard to help things go smoothly at home for what? A kick in the pants it seems like. Only to have him to with strangers and behave like the perfect child. It's not been implied, but the way I'm feeling, you may have well just said to me, "You're a terrible mother. Your kids do better with anyone else than you. They don't even like you. What good are you doing?"









Mickiswing

I've been reading this thread for a while now, I am just usually so spent by the end of the day, I can't pull together a post but your post spoke to me so much today. Sigh. I do know why dd is so much better behaved with my mom, at school, etc., and I love that she trusts me enough to "let it all out" with me but it is so demoralizing some days.

Anyway thanks to all you wise mamas for letting me read your thoughts and ideas. Hope to most more often.


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## MsMoMpls

http://mnsun.com/articles/2006/03/23...psychology.txt

Just wanted to share my successs... this was just published in the local paper in town. I made my daddy so proud!


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## Justine

That is fantastic Maureen - I don't often get chance to reply to your posts but always read them with great interest.

I would truly love to have a center like yours available to me. You are doing something so valuable - I wish you every success. The people who have the opportunity to go to your center don't realise how lucky they are. I hope you gets lots of support with funding such a worthwhile cause.

Hi to everyone else - more when I can.

Justine


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Just a quick minute to check in. I'm reading, reading, reading. But I had to say BEST WISHES on your center. I am so thrilled to know you here-OL. And I can only imagine the good you can do for people IRL!


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## emblmrgrl

That's wonderful Maureen! I wish you much success!


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## TEAK's Mom

Maureen, that is so absolutely awesome! Congratulations!


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## Magella

That's great Maureen! What a great gift you are giving to parents.


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## Bearsmama

Okay, I feel a little like Linda Richman of Coffee Talk saying this, but:

Have we talked about/discussed the idea that perhaps our challenging children are extra challenging b/c they are what we either couldn't be or weren't allowed to be in our own families of origin?

Discuss.

Seriously, though. I've been thinking about this recently and I think it is part of my pushing buttons issue with Bears. I know this is a little OT right now, so I completely understand if ya'll want to get back the matters at hand and more recent posts. But this is just one of those things I've been thinking about a lot lately. I don't think that I was allowed to be a free child, so-to-speak. Differences were not embraced in my family.

Wanted to see what everyone else thought. GTg, much more later.


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## Magella

This thread is like butta.

I have thought, at times, that this is part of it-that my dd1 is what I was definitely not allowed to be. That she's like me, the parts of me that were squashed or rejected as a child. I thought, at one point when it all first started to go downhill, that she and I were reenacting the same struggles my mom and I must've had when I was that age. That I have these reactions sort of programmed into me from how I was responded to. I can't remember those very early years in any detail to confirm this, but I wonder. I could go on more about this, but I have to run.


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## TEAK's Mom

Yes. I think so. It is kind of hard for me to say that I wasn't allowed to be something as a child because my parents were very kind, fairly AP, and good people. But, as I think about it more, I realize that my mother has always hated noise, and that she liked me best when I was strong and independent. I have always been the one who was in control, the one who didn't have loud crises.

I hadn't thought about it for years, but I do remember the horrible out of control tantrums I had around a year old. They scared even me. I also remember realizing that my mother couldn't handle them and reining them in. Maybe that has something to do with the incredible urge I sometimes have just to blow up. Maybe that's why I HAVE to let the tantrums happen.

Gosh, it all sounds so simplistic when I type it out. Of course, I have wiped two bottoms, cleaned blueberries off the carpet and discouraged a pug from chewing a granola bar in the time it has taken to write it. Oh well.


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## emblmrgrl

Oh, man, Bearsmama... that is rich. I definitely think you're on to something. My mother compares Cole to me all the time and I always think it can't be true because I would NEVER have been allowed to behave that way. And then, I'll have a flash of jumping up between the front seats of the car and my father saying "Jennifer, if you don't sit down, I'm gonna ... blah, blah, blah". I've always had trouble conforming, I'm aware of that, so why my child doing it is so hard for me, I have no idea. More when I can...


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-Do you really remember when you were 1??? That is truly amazing. My DH has an amazing memory, too. In fact, he remembers vididly many things/details from his childhood starting when he was about 2, but 1? That's incredible. I don't have much memory from my very early years, so

I can't say for sure what my early childhood was like, but I do know how my family was, so much of what I'm conjecturing is coming from somewhere. I know that I was probably a lot like Bears. In fact, lately, I've been realizing that I was probably more like Bears than I'm comfortable admitting. I was a pleaser, a talker, very hyper-active, lots of teachers saying, "If she'd only sit still, or not be so social, or not talk as much, she'd be great". It's like I was never quite right for anyone or any particular place-home or school. And although I never intended to do anything like this to my children, in some ways I've done it over and over and over again. I want Bears to "chill out" or calm down, stop moving, etc. And many of these things he can't control-I know that. But it's hard to have a kid that's "different", even if you're the one who would be the first to stand on a soapbox and tell ya that you "gotta embrace your child's uniqueness".







: So hard. This parenting business. Especially when you realize that the reflection often staring back at you is...YOU!







:

Anyway, we had a miserable night. DH comes home from work and the usual MO is that he bathes the kids very shortly after walking through the door. 98% of the time, his patience and kindness is much greater than mine at this time of day, but every once and awhile, his patience is low and he's at his limit quick. Baby was crying and nothing would console him (just wanted to nurse and sleep) and Bears has been a bit out of control lately. He lost it b/c his brother got on his PJs before he did. Here's that gotta-be-first, gotta-have-things-perfect thing that is part of his bag. Well, we can't always make his life perfect. And after about 20 minutes of crying, I tried to explain that we can't understand want he wants if he doesn't tell us with his words. And that we can't make the world perfect for him. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Daddy was past the point of having patience, and well, it got a little loud and a little ugly.









emblm-Is it that we're a bit resentful? Like our child is getting more thought, more well-motivated parenting then we did? And we're feeling resentful adn threatened some how? I've been thinking about this one a bit.









sledg-I often feel that I'm reenacting some kind of scenario. And trying to stop that preprogrammed response or dynamic (we've talked about this before), is so HUGE.

Anyway, DH is now sulking around in the very familiar to me funk of the after-yelling haze. The one where you kinda want to throw yourself out the window. More when I can, ladies.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
But it's hard to have a kid that's "different", even if you're the one who would be the first to stand on a soapbox and tell ya that you "gotta embrace your child's uniqueness".







:









I laugh about it because it's so true, but I really do feel both sides of that. And it is so very hard.

On being like me ... I've spent years trying to figure out why Cole must chew on EVERYTHING. He should've outgrown it by now. I bought him a chew toy. I tried to have him tested for a sensory issue thru the school to no avail. I've never been able to figure out why he does this. And then a couple months ago, he walks out of his room with a hard plastic straw hanging out of his mouth. I said he needed to give it to me, that he knew he wasn't to chew on stuff. I laid it down here on my computer desk. Within 30 minutes, me still sitting here reading something, my DD walks by and was like "Um, mom, why are you chewing on that?"







Totally busted. But until then I had never associated it with myself. Maybe I'm slow but honestly, because Cole chews on such a variety of things, things that could potentially hurt him, I thought his chewing was something besides like chewing on the top of your pen.

I think that's why when this was posted a while back, #7 really stuck with me. I know it fits in the dynamic with Cole & me, I just don't know how that info is gonna help me yet.

Quote:

OTHERS ARE MERELY MIRRORS OF YOU. You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects something you love or hate about yourself.
Ok, time to get the kiddos up and out the door. I shall return.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
emblm-Is it that we're a bit resentful? Like our child is getting more thought, more well-motivated parenting then we did? And we're feeling resentful adn threatened some how? I've been thinking about this one a bit.

I have definitely felt this way at times. ETA that I know now that I can give to myself now what I did not receive as a child. So when I become aware of feeling this way (and awareness is the trick, I find) then it's a reminder to take care of myself along with taking care of my child.

Gtg. We have been blessed with conjunctivitis and sore throats. Lots of cranky people here.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

emblm-Is it that we're a bit resentful? Like our child is getting more thought, more well-motivated parenting then we did? And we're feeling resentful adn threatened some how? I've been thinking about this one a bit.










I'd really like to hear more about that. I _do_ feel resentment towards Cole on occasion but it has always seemed to stem from not being able to control him, to be blunt. Maybe that does come from the fact that I was controlled by my parents at his age and my not being to accomplish that frustrates me.

The one time where I know the way I was related to vs. how I relate to him came up for me was when Cole broke the van window a couple months ago. He was going on about his little happy life that evening, I became just livid that he was acting so nonchalant. I remained calm but inside I was seething that he had the audacity to even BREATHE loudly after creating such an inconvenience for us all. And it did affect us all ... DH had to drive the van with no window in Jan. so the baby wouldn't freeze, money that was to be for ALL the birthdays now had to be spent elsewhere, etc. But I remember turning to DH at one point and saying "how DARE him act like nothing has happened.", "if I'd done that when I was his age, I'd be scared to move too loudly!" and that's when I got up and went to his room and proceeded to lecture him. I was convinced that he wasn't sorry enough. And as I type that, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Part of me is sad that I couldn't accept it and go on ... that I felt he must adhere to my standard of apologetic behavior or it's not right. And yet, I of course wanted him to know the impact of how his choice to be careless affected us all, as a family. That his actions DO hurt other people, because you never know if Cole ever thinks about that.

Off to ponder some more ...


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## kayjayjay

Quote:

Have we talked about/discussed the idea that perhaps our challenging children are extra challenging b/c they are what we either couldn't be or weren't allowed to be in our own families of origin?
I don't think Sophie is very much like I was as a child, but I do struggle very much with letting her express her frustration because I was never allowed to do that growing up. Is that what you mean? My parents were big into appearances and no one was ever allowed to yell or act out. DH on the other hand grew up in a family where his father yelled and threw things and he really gets stressed out with DD's yelling for sort of the opposite reason.

I think my resentment towards Sophie (and it's very intense at times) comes mostly from feeling how much her behavior affects our entire family and how oblivious she is to that. I think much like emblmrgrl described.

I've finally got our library's copy of The Explosive Child and I'm really amazed by how spot on it is. I think this notion that Sophie's primary issue is her inablility to process change and to express her frustration in acceptable ways is something I've sort of realized instinctively but not been able to describe. I'm just about 1/3 into the book, but I'm really hopeful it will give me some new ideas for how to head off the explosions.

On the home front, we're still in a pretty mellow patch. It's been so nice because Sophia is such a delightful child when she's happy. We homeschool, so we're all here together most days, and this past week DD1 (who's almost 10) has been pestering Sophie relentlessly. So I'm working on trying to explain to her why her interactions with her sister set off these screaming fits so often (and why I'm always scolding HER when it's her sister who's screaming and throwing things). Just to clarify, our mellow patches are when Sophie only melts down once or twice a day.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emblmrgrl*
I'd really like to hear more about that. I _do_ feel resentment towards Cole on occasion but it has always seemed to stem from not being able to control him, to be blunt. Maybe that does come from the fact that I was controlled by my parents at his age and my not being to accomplish that frustrates me.

Mind if I jump in on that while my kids rest? I have felt resentment towards my child at times b/c I can't control her (and it seems like life would be so much easier if I could control her) and at times b/c parenting her seems to be so hard so very much of the time (and sometimes I would just like it to be easy). There are other times, though, that I find myself feeling resentful b/c I perceive her as getting more thoughtful, open, supportive parenting than I myself got when I was doing the very same things my child is now doing. I'm not sure I know why I feel that way at times, one would think a parent would be happy to be giving her child better. I guess a part of it is a little bit of "how dare she continue behaving this way when I am giving her so much, I try so hard and it doesn't matter." Maybe it's anger towards my parents or about how I was treated that I never expressed, that I always stuffed down inside and it comes out as resentment towards my child. I don't really know, and I'm not sure it's important to figure out exactly why-just important to know it's happening, to recognize it, to be kind to myself, to separate it out from what my actual child is doing so I can respond to my child better rather than just reacting.

emblmrgrl-I get what you're saying about how you felt after the van window incident. I have felt the same way. Sometimes I get so frustrated by the fact that dd1 seems oblivious or seems to just not care how her actions affect the family. I would love to see some sign that she actually feels sorry or regrets something or in any way cares about how her actions affect people, or that she just plain cares about other people. I'm not sure if that's even an age-appropriate expectation, though, honestly. How much capacity for empathy can one expect a 4 or 5 or 6 year old to have developed? Is it a maturity thing? And is it even bad that they can just move on and go about their lives like that? _Should_ they go on feeling badly for more than a few minutes? Wouldn't my own life be so much lighter and more enjoyable if I could just learn and not dwell in the guilt and fear? (Am I actually right that my child doesn't feel bad just b/c she looks as though she's moved on and doesn't care?) Just b/c I would have lived in fear and silence and misery the rest of the day as a child, does that mean it's wrong for my child to just let it go? Is it possible that it's okay to explain the seriousness and the consequences once and then they go about their happy little lives? Is there some other way for us to talk so that I know she understands the seriousness or consequences of whatever she did?







I don't know. I ask myself these things a lot.

Back to caring for sick kids and disinfecting everything I can possibly disinfect.


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## TEAK's Mom

Bears, I don't have a lot of memories from that age, but I have a fair number. They are usually strong emotions with specific visual elements and what I thought about the situation. I don't have detailed day to day recall until my sister came home on my 3rd birthday, but anything after that, I seem to rememeber. The scary thing is that both my girls, but especially TEAK seem to share this trait. TEAK brings up things from before she could talk. Yikes.

sledg, I think that you are right about empathy. Some days I see it evolving in my girls and some days, they seem completely clueless about how someone else would feel. I'm with you though, some days, I just want them to appreciate how very hard I am trying and how well I am handling the day.

Kayjayjay, we also went through a time when only one or two explosions a day was a good week. I'm glad to say that things have improved on that score, at least.

Ladies, I am so lonely today. I would love to have friends all around and for my kids to be swimming in company. Instead, most of my friends live a long way away and don't have children yet. We're lucky to play with other kids outside of the library once or twice a month. Most people seem to find us off-putting, "there's the hippie lady with a baby on her back and the weird genius kid." I feel like both TEAK and I are not good enough at blending in. I just remind myself that she is not lonely. She likes her free time to play and read and imagine. I think I may be pms-ing today. Sorry to moan.


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## Bearsmama

TEAKS-Major





















Please don't be sorry to "moan". In fact, I think you speak for many of my days around here. And I just brought up the word "lonely" to DH today about my day. And to be honest, many, many days feel lonely. It's so hard being home with children day in and day out. SO FLIPPIN' HARD. I'm sorry you're having such a lonely day. All I can say is that I'm glad you're HERE, and I wish you were closer. We could be "lonely" together!







Maybe loneliness is another topic we should bring up and discuss? Or perhaps that's one just for the SAHMs. Or do we all feel that?

emblm-The chewing thing is so totally a bust! And such a reflection on the whole mirror thing with our kids. Especially our special/challenging kids. There are many things I do that I see Bears do and I find myself getting frustrated with it. Then I have to check myself until I realize that I'm frustrated with ME. The ugly, annoying things I see in myself I see in HIM. And it's just much easier to pick it out when it's in FRONT of you, not IN you, YKWIM? I also completely get what you're saying about wanting your kid to "suffer" a bit about their missteps. I do this, too. But doesn't that make sense, in a way? We (I) beat myself up about everything, I guess somewhere I want him to, too.







:

Oh, sledg-And I know I'm skipping around here but I had to mention before the kids wake (which I am anticipating even though it's 11pm here b/c they each are getting colds): I think it was you, sledg (or maybe emblm) about our challenging ones not getting how their actions affect the rest of the family. Yes, yes, yes! Obviously, the whole children as mirrors to their parents thing is only one small part of the whole puzzle of raising these children. I feel the SAME way about Bears. His obsessions, his inability to control his emotions in any way sometimes GREATLY affects the rest of us. Like, if his underwear isn't perfect (if only the Spiderman are clean, for instance) then he literally FLIPS out. So, we have to scurry to try to make him happy. And yes, we try to get him to learn that the whole world does not revolve around his and his particular clothing desires. But, when it comes down to getting out of the house on time VS. making a point of us all working together, as a team, yadda, yadda, yadda, well, much of the time we try to lesson the damage and get out the door. What is it? The path of least resistance?

Okay, I'm not sure I'm making sense now b/c I'm preoccupied with the kids being up.

More when I can. Sorry for being so scattered. Love to you all.


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## Magella

TEAK's







I get lonely too. It's hard to be home with kids all day, particularly when for some reason you don't seem to really click with the people you meet. This is something I have a problem with, maybe I'm picky I dunno. I'm also shy-I am so bad at small talk and meeting new people.

Only a minute, but I wanted to add about the whole issue of kids not seeming to be at all aware of how they are affecting the family/the consequences of their actions. I have been really frustrated for a long time with dd1's inability/unwillingness to get along with her siblings. Every day there's this screaming at them, the "you're not my brother anymore!", and there's hitting weekly. Not that they don't ever get along, they do play fabulously together too. But she can just be vicious, yk? So it's been such a long time of talking about how to treat others, and better ways to solve problems and whatnot-basically focusing on the behavior. But last night dd1 and the others are fighting over cushions, they've reached an impasse, and I'm all done listening to it so I take them all upstairs for showers just to get them away from the source of conflict. To take a break. Once we're up there, the two younger ones get in the shower and dd1 begins just sobbing-not the freaking-out screaming tantrum crying, but just this sad/overwhelmed crying that is not so painful to hear (usually her tantrum cries are physically painful). So she starts talking about what a tough day she's having, she doesn't feel good and she didn't get to go to school or gymnastics, and her siblings are treating her "like garbage, like I'm nothing!" She wants them to be considerate of her b/c she doesn't feel good and she's had a hard day. She's tired of them being noisy when she comes home from school, it's loud at school and it's a long day and she needs quiet when she comes home, it's too hard going to gymnastics on a school day even though she loves gymnastics. This went on for awhile, then resumed when dh came home. She even hid under the dining room table, then sobbed when dh got her out. We ended up offering for her to sleep down in the cozy corner while the little ones went to sleep, for some privacy and for a special treat to be close with us and stay up a little later. After she talked about all these feelings and we really listened and empathized and said we understand and shared our stories of having younger siblings and our offer for her to sleep downstairs.....she was all smiles and helping her siblings and being kind and helping us. Her cup was full, her pain was emptied, and she could be this wonderful, gentle, calm, caring person we know she can be.

So this has to do with empathy and seeing how your actions affect others...why? It made me realize that I've been focusing so much on her behavior and getting her to understand how the yelling and hitting affects the family that I haven't seen that she's doing these things b/c she really feels bad....and she feels bad in ways I never really imagined. I knew school was long and loud, but what I didn't realize was how much she needs privacy and quiet time away from the other kids. I didn't realize she took things her siblings do so very personally and that she felt so hurt. She's so often oblivious to how she affects others b/c of her own pain, and clearly I don't always have an idea what that pain is.

I am so very happy that she did all this talking, even though it was really sad to hear some of it.


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## Magella

We've mentioned balance here lately, balancing the needs of various family members. I ran across this very interesting perspective on balance today. The author of this article is talking about a zen student and her choice of dharma name, which was "Tulya" which means "equanimity" or "balance."

_"I'd already seen her instructing yoga students while balancing on one foot with her free leg arched up over her head. She would sometimes reach over her shoulder with an arm and, touching her foot, form of herself a completed circle in the air. And in this posture, she'd tilt forward until the trunk of her body was parallel to the ground and then slowly revolve horizontally in a circle round that single supporting foot and leg. To watch this was to understand that balance is not a spread-foot, anchored-down sort of thing, but rather an exquisite, continual adjustment to shifting circumstance."_

The author goes on to talk about this woman's equanimity as not an even-tempered affect but a steadiness that she achieved through living in harmony with the forces of life-knowing when to yield, how to turn adversity to advantage.

Awhile back it was suggested that maybe there is no balance. But maybe it's just that balance in family life isn't really what we tend to think of it as being. Maybe it's less meeting everyone's needs in some kind of mathematically equal way, and more like a dance. If we're really dancing with someone and both people try to lead or both people think they should be following then it's not dancing-it's an awkward struggle. But if one person gets a feel for when to yield and when to take the lead (and to get a feel is an art and takes practice, and is not about thinking but opening up and becoming aware and communication of some sort) then the two can dance. Or if you dance but fight the rhythm of the music, it's awkward. But follow the music, even through changes in tempo and rhythm and melody, and it's beautiful. Remember balancing on a beam or fence or wall as a child? How in order to keep your balance you had to respond to all those little changes in your body's position in space along with the wall/fence/beam itself? How keeping that balance was just working with all those changes, and just doing it rather than analyzing it-the moment you think too much and lose touch with your body, you fall off the wall? Maybe balance in family life is as simple as meeting the needs of each member, however big or small or numerous or few they may be-and it's just a dance with numerous partners, some leading and some following at various times, and some leading or following more or less than others.

Done rambling.


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## TEAK's Mom

sledg, it sounds as though you and your dd really hit upon something, both that she could tell you how much she needed peace and space and that you could help her find a way to get it. When we have moments like that it always feels almost like resetting a dislocated joint. There is a huge jolt and then peace. You are positively awesome.

I think I know why I was so whiney yesterday: migraine time. (So don't be surprised if I sound funny tonight.) In some ways, that is a relief because I don't like myself when I'm like that. I know that I will never have a large social circle because I, too, am not good at small talk and I must be picky, too.

I have to say, though, that even with a migraine, today was pretty good. We were just peaceful and kind to each other. At one point, I admitted to TEAK that I had a headache and she put on a play to make me feel better. Would you believe it was a musical complete with plot and original songs? They were actually pretty good. She's deeply odd, but a wonderful kid.

Sorry to ramble tonight.


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## Justine

Hi all,

Really interesting stuff here, sledg - your posts never cease to inspire me and make me think - you are such an asset to this thread! You'll have to start charging us soon for all your words of wisdom!

Can't write much as my 4 week old is wobbling about on my knee - he's had the most awful gripey, nasty, windy belly which keeps everyone up between 1-5am! Who ever send that breastfed babies don't get wind?!

Still reading and absorbing all the good stuff here....

Love to you all.


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## Magella

How are y'all doing?

I am exhausted. I am discouraged. I am sick as can be, I am tired of vigilantly sterilizing everything in the house to try to keep my dd1, ds and dh from reinfecting their eyes and to keep me and dd2 from getting the darned infection (so far, we've escaped the conjunctivitis). I have this stubborn sore throat and cold thing that will not go away. My dd1....well, the best way to describe the last few weeks here is to say that her recent behavior has really highlighted how much better she had been for several months. Which is really the only positive thing I can say about it. Well, the other night when she came out with all that was bothering her was an improvement. Too bad she can't do that every day. Is it me (I've been cranky and not feeling well and forgetting my best motherly behavior) or is it her? Is it the stress, physical and mental, of all the illnesses of the past few weeks? Is it food? Is it that "disequilibrium" that periodically happens to kids as they develop-those rough patches where they come out the other side clearly having developed in some way? Oh wait, I forgot, there is no explanation so why do I bother wondering? I'm exhausted, I have run out of patience and humor, I am kicking myself for indulging in the idea that she had "finally outgrown" so much, and I feel like







. Thank goodness my folks took them all away for the day. Looking forward to a nap, and some peace and quiet.

TEAK's, I know how tough it is to deal with migraines and all the crap that goes with them. I hope it passed quickly.

Justine, I hope your baby doesn't stay windy for long and that you get some sleep!


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## Bearsmama

sledg-

























































Only a sec, and I really wanted to respond to your earlier posts, too. Such great words, but I just saw this one from today. And I just have much love and hugs for you, mama. Who knows what it is? Sometimes we'll never know. Just love and hugs. More when I can.


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## Bearsmama

Awhile back it was suggested that maybe there is no balance. But maybe it's just that balance in family life isn't really what we tend to think of it as being. Maybe it's less meeting everyone's needs in some kind of mathematically equal way, and more like a dance. If we're really dancing with someone and both people try to lead or both people think they should be following then it's not dancing-it's an awkward struggle. But if one person gets a feel for when to yield and when to take the lead (and to get a feel is an art and takes practice, and is not about thinking but opening up and becoming aware and communication of some sort) then the two can dance. Or if you dance but fight the rhythm of the music, it's awkward. But follow the music, even through changes in tempo and rhythm and melody, and it's beautiful. Remember balancing on a beam or fence or wall as a child? How in order to keep your balance you had to respond to all those little changes in your body's position in space along with the wall/fence/beam itself? How keeping that balance was just working with all those changes, and just doing it rather than analyzing it-the moment you think too much and lose touch with your body, you fall off the wall? Maybe balance in family life is as simple as meeting the needs of each member, however big or small or numerous or few they may be-and it's just a dance with numerous partners, some leading and some following at various times, and some leading or following more or less than others.
Done rambling.[/QUOTE]

Ahh, sledg, this is great. And I wanted to get back to this. First, this is just beautiful, really. Your words. And second, I think it is soooo SPOT ON. You know, this may not seem connected, but when I hear people spout the whole "marriage is a 50-50" thing. I cringe a bit. For me, what I've learned, is that MARRIAGE IS NOT a 50-50 thing. Sometimes it seems equal and balanced, and other times, some things seem outta whack. But giving up the notion that all relationships should somehow equal a 50-50 effort, is a huge thing. A revelation, I think, to many. Sometimes, there are times when one person needs more and other gives more. And in a solid relationship, this terrain is negotiated. Obviously, when parenting, we are not in a consensual adult relationship, so a balance cannot be "agreed upon" or negotiated. But for some reason, I think it pertains to trying to find the balance in family life. Like, I know Bears has taken up sooo much of our mental energy since the day of his birth, but there will be a time that his little brother will need us in a similar way. A time when maybe his energy needs more attention. I think just giving up the idea of "balance" is freeing, and then you can start this "dance" that sledg talks about.

Dance is such a great word to describe it. After having my 2nd child 19 months ago, I realized that I could not meet everyone's needs all the time. But MOST of everyone's needs are met MUCH of the time. Small things, like Bears getting mommy and Bears reading time many times throughout the day is HUGE for him. For my little one, it's just playing outside. And access to the boobs, of course. For DH and I we realize that we require less sleep than we thought to function, and we don't expect much "perfectness" in our lives. This is all not making much sense, I realize. But in my fuzzy brain this afternoon it's all connected. I think it's all about letting go. Which is something that sledg and I have discussed before here.

A bit OT here: DH handles most of Bears's clothing issues (he's a bit OCD about what he wears). I realized a long time ago that this obsession was a HUGE anger trigger for me. And so I really just handed over that responsibility to DH. Today, DH was outside with the little one and Bears was getting dressed. Apparently, DH put out the wrong sox for him. Bears had a big meltdown. I didn't deal with it well at all, and basically told Bears that his clothing issues were not something that I could "handle". So, in this sense, our lives are not balanced. I am not the all-loving, all handling mama. Some things you gotta delegate. It's the path of least resistance.


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## Bearsmama

Okay, I just have one thing to say tonight to the only mamas I know who would completely understand: TRUE CHANGE IS SO HARD.









Had a rough early evening. Still stumbling over myself, really, if YKWIM.

Much love to you all.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, only a sec but







Yes, true change is very hard. I hope today is better.


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## Bearsmama

Ah, sledg, I knew you'd get it. Thanks. Also, funny, I was going to add that little coffee icon to my siggy, too.







It's what gets me thru.


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## Magella

Coffee is the nectar of life!

I wanted to add quickly (it's naptime, so I have a few minutes here) that I like what you said about marriage and how it relates to parenting. My dh and I agree that marriage is not a 50-50 thing, that it's sort of 100-100 with of course the given that often one person is giving more (though I don't think 'more' is exactly the right word) than the other according to the needs, abilities, and preferences of each. Certainly parenting is different in some ways, but it's similar in that we can't really focus simply on divvying our attention or responsiveness or whatever equally-it's about meeting the individual needs of each child, and that means sometimes (or maybe often) someone gets "more" or "different."

GTG. YK, I have just realized that these whole last few weeks have been a wake-up call to me-a reminder to resume letting go, letting go, letting go and to stay present. There seem to be cycles, not just with my child but within myself-sometimes things come up that require another period of letting go that is sort of like giving birth in that it's difficult and sometimes a longish process but then it's done and there's this...lightness, this "a-ha!", this relief, this peace and feeling of "getting it." Sometimes it's new things that come up and must be let go. Sometimes I've let go of things and without my noticing it I let them creep back in and suddenly one day I realize I've been clinging on to them again and once again I have to let it go.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
This is all not making much sense, I realize. But in my fuzzy brain this afternoon it's all connected. I think it's all about letting go.

I get it. I often feel as though I'm making no sense, because this is an experience that is so very hard to describe-I don't think it can be accurately captured in words. But I do think I understand what you were saying in your post, it _is_ all connected.


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## TEAK's Mom

I only have a minute (what else is new?). I just wanted to pop in and mention that TEAK turns 4 today. We have made it 4 years together. Boy, have I grown during that time (and she has, too







).

I am so blessed.


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## Magella

Happy Birthday to TEAK!!!!









And to you too, TEAK's Mom, b/c in a way it's kind of your birthday (as a mom) too.


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## Magella

Hey all.

Bearsmama, especially: I wanted to share this with you. In a renewed desperate attempt to understand my dd and parent her more effectively (still stuck in an unpleasant and difficult phase, accompanied by more illness) I have once again turned to the books. I revisited _The Explosive Child_, which I did not so much like or get much from a long time ago when I read it. This time around it makes so much sense. I have long suspected that my dd is somewhat lacking in _ability_ to moderate her emotions, whether that stems from sensory or other overwhelm (b/c anyone has reduced coping abilities when stressed) or whether it's a problem in itself independent of other issues. But I get stuck focusing on behavior modification, or I get stuck focusing on potential underlying emotional needs, or on food sensitivities, or on ways of communicating. I get locked into this one way of thinking periodically, when in reality there are so many factors that affect my child that to choose one to explain her behavior is to oversimplify. Anyway, what I tend to almost completely neglect is the fact that she really does need to learn to better express and name her feelings and to modulate her feelings regardless of what's happening or affecting her-thus I neglect to help her learn these things. Perhaps b/c handling emotions was not something taught well to me. Anyway, it's really interesting and has me thinking about why some things that have been so successful in so many ways still seem to fall short in some other ways. What I've been reading in _The Explosive Child_ is something to think about, and to incorporate into our lives. And one more thing to remember







.

How have things been going with Bears?


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## Bearsmama

First, a belated Happy B-day to our TEAK!









sledg-Once again, we're thinking along the same lines. I'm sorry you're going through another rough patch with your DD. Sounds like much of what you've been through lately has been somewhat associated with illness, like you said. But there ya go--associating it with illness is, I guess, another way to just look at things through one lens. I remember when BEars was younger and teething, well, we used to always say that his bad mood, his grumpiness, his tantrums, were associated with him getting a tooth. In fact, DH and I used to joke about it. If he even sneezed, we'd say, "Must be getting a tooth". So, I think it's only normal that we try to find an answer to things, a reason, maybe ONE reason. When, maybe, in our hearts, we know that one reason is not the answer. Any more there is one reason that I am the way I am. I am made up of so many things, my moods are, too. Have you ever caught yourself driving happily down the road, and your mind will wander, and suddenly you realize that whatever you're thinking about NOW is changing your mood? This isn't making much sense, I'm sure. But I guess I'm realize how often my mood changes. And the only thing I hope is that they aren't drastic, daily changes. But the changes are there, and they are daily and caused and influenced by a plethora (my $5 word for tonight) of things. So, I have to start really accepting the complexities of Bears' behavior. I mean truly. If I understand this about myself, which I really do, why is it so hard for me, us (?) to accept the daily fluctations and mood changes in our kid (s)???

Sorry, GTG. I realize I'm a little off your topic, sledg. And as always, I have more to say, as always. Funny that your DD is going through a rough time, as Bears is having a hard time the past few days, too.

More when I can. We rented a DVD, and I actually want to WATCH this one before I have to return it without actually having seen the darn thing!


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## MsMoMpls

Hey everyone, just checking in. I have been lurking!!! Hard to believe I could actually keep to myself for so long. But life has been wonderful and full and don't even know where to start.

So- for the past 6 weeks, as I was preparing for my huge fundraising event, I have also been dealing with a sick little one. He had a breathing episode 6 weeks ago and has been wheezing ever since. So finally last night, they actually found something in his lungs and we ended up in the hospital today having an almond sliver removed from my 2 year olds lung. They said his right lung was fully blocked. For 6 weeks I have been dealing with poor sleep and restlessness and likely pain although he never shows it. He just nurses day and night.

So hopefully after all this- things should start getting better fast. He was wonderful through the whole procedure and looked great afterwards. The worst part was going 8 hours without nursing!

Now- as to my fundraising event. It was so fantastic. I don't know if this will work- but try and check out our pictures. I am the one in the fantastic tiara!!! Towards the end you get to see my oldest- the only grown kid there. (Other than all the silly parents.)
http://www.snapfish.com/share/p=8881...=SYE/otsi=SALB

I raised about $1500 which isn't much given all the effort (for the time, I could have made more working at Mcdonalds) but we created a community and made lots of great contacts and I got to really grow as a leader so it was worth it and we will get to do a few more, and do them better.

So everyone... I don't have much wisdom today but through all my stress all I have been trying to do is be fun. FUN all the time. My answer to every situation has been- "Enjoy the ride" and it is working. My kids are doing so wonderfully. I just started knowing that I am a fantastic mom and my kids are absolutely perfect in every way. I don't know if this would have made Nate easier, sometimes I wish we could use them as guinne pigs. My house is a mess, my laundry way behind and believe it or not I have been at the computer for two hours STARTING my taxes... and now I am here instead of doing what I should do.

Thanks so much for all the support of this group in helping me see my value as a leader. I hope to be more involved now that the event is over or at least I should be available once my taxes are done.

More later,
Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-I'm so sorry that your little one (and YOU!) had to go through all that. I'm hoping he makes a speedy recovery. It sounds like a blockage was removed? If so, I'm sure his breathing and illness should get better fast. Please let us know how he's doing.









Dang-I can't get to your photos (you need a password). I would love to see them. The positivity and enthusiam is just oozing out of you, Maureen! Seriously, I can FEEEEEL it. I think it is always truly amazing when we can finally come full circle, so-to-speak. Like, realizing that we can actually DO the things that we've only dreamed about thus far. You are inspiring me this morning, Maureen. And no, I'm not going to start a parenting center, but I may just organize the spare room today so I can have the reading/knitting/scrapbooking/BEARSMAMA oasis that I've been dreaming of.







See, you inspire in ways I'm sure you didn't think of!









Fun has been such a key thing for us. And actually, despite all the bad times with trying to learn how to gently discipline and guide Bears, we have a lot of fun. Silly fun. I'm glad this is what's been your focus lately. It sure helps us!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Have you ever caught yourself driving happily down the road, and your mind will wander, and suddenly you realize that whatever you're thinking about NOW is changing your mood?









Totally!

And yep, part of my dd's trouble right now is illness and/or the onset of seasonal allergies. It's helpful to see it as one thing that affects her, rather than as the only explanation. Looking at contributing factors is helpful, focusing on only one or two things as _the_ explanation isn't so much.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
So, I have to start really accepting the complexities of Bears' behavior. I mean truly. If I understand this about myself, which I really do, why is it so hard for me, us (?) to accept the daily fluctations and mood changes in our kid (s)???









and *sigh* This is the hardest part for me. I really, really want a simple explanation and a simple response that will solve everything so our home is peaceful and predictable. I want it to be simple and easy. But that's not going to happen. Part of it is that at when it comes to understanding another person, especially one who can't communicate all that well, it's a lot of guesswork and trial and error when it comes to responding in a helpful way. It's tiring, and it can be so frustrating, and it can leave me feeling so helpless. Now if I can just relax into that uncertainty, I'm fine and my kids are fine and life is fine. Sometimes I can do it, sometimes I can't.

It's all about learning to enjoy the ride, like Maureen said. And deciding to have fun.

Maureen, I'm so happy for you! What a great thing you're doing. Great pictures. And so sorry you had to go through that with your little one.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Hey all.

Bearsmama, especially: I wanted to share this with you. In a renewed desperate attempt to understand my dd and parent her more effectively (still stuck in an unpleasant and difficult phase, accompanied by more illness) I have once again turned to the books. I revisited _The Explosive Child_, which I did not so much like or get much from a long time ago when I read it. This time around it makes so much sense. I have long suspected that my dd is somewhat lacking in _ability_ to moderate her emotions, whether that stems from sensory or other overwhelm (b/c anyone has reduced coping abilities when stressed) or whether it's a problem in itself independent of other issues.


Not to interrupt the conversation.







But I wanted to second The Explosive Child. I read it awhile back and while I thought it made sense, I figured dd was more sensitive. While she is that, we had some meltdowns lately that just flummoxed me. When she gets that far gone, you cannot reason with her. She can't *hear* you or anything so there's nothing to do but ride it out. Afterwards, she usually apologizes. I reread Explosive Child and bingo, that's a classic pattern.
It's helping me to remember that working through a frustration is a learned skill and I need to keep helping dd do that. She's still sensitive, but I'm incorporating the techniques from the book as well, and it's helping.

So I think it's worth a read for almost anyone.

Back to your regularly scheduled conversation.









Loon


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## Bearsmama

loon-No interruption at all. The ditto on the book is another kick for me to go get it out of the library. Sounds so much like Bears. In fact, he has had quite a few explosions over the past few days. And "riding it out" is really what we've learned to do. I sometimes have to whisper to DH or he to me, "Don't say anything." Meaning, don't get embroiled in a battle with Bears when he can't listen anymore. OR even use words that we think are compassionate. When Bears is freaking out (such a loving term!), I will touch his back firmly and say, "I hear how much you don't like that idea.", OR "I'm sorry you're so sad". But then, after that, I have to sort of walk away. Not far, but maybe to the kitchen when he's in the hall or another room. And usually it lasts 5 minutes or so when all is said and done.

sledg-I love what you said about "relaxing into that uncertainty". For me, this sums everything up. Really. Trying hard to control the situation, any situation, seems to end up backfiring. And, bottom line, never "feels" right, never feels good. But when all hell is breaking loose, to just let it LOOSE, and to sort of watch it. Even in yourself and know that it will end. That the moment will again change, for the better. And then, later, maybe not that day, but LATER, again, it will change.

Bears had a hard few days. And I realize how far we've come when we have days like the past few with moments like tonight, at the dinner table. When he just couldn't control himself. And we're not rigid at all, but we expect not to have him be the one voice that's dominating everything. At dinner, I really have this vision that we all have a voice, YKWIM? Which is totally unrealistic, I know.







: But a girl can dream, right? So, when he starts just trying to be disruptive, or annoying, or rude, or whatever, it makes me nuts. After about 20 minutes, I just lost it. Yelled. He cried and said, "mommy, that hurts my ears.".







Meanwhile, we had all just been subjected to many, many, noises that hurt OUR ears from Bears. But, alas, he doesn't get that on any level, and I probably shouldn't expect that from him.

Should we expect LESS of these challenging children? Sometimes I think we're too hard on Bears. Sometimes I think we should have more structure. I know, obviously, that yelling doesn't help. But what should our expectations be for these kids?

Gtg. More when I can. Good night, my mamas.


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## Bearsmama

Mamas, I really screwed up this morning. Big time. I need to share this to get it off my chest, and to maybe get some support. Maureen?

This morning, Bears was going to the bathroom and he was in there for quite some time. He is working on wiping his own behind, but I am always there when he wipes b/c it can get a little, well, out of control. Today, I kept asking, "Are you done?", and he said NO. When I finally came in (when he allowed me to come in), he said, "I used the whole box of Kandoos (we use those flushable wipey things-I use the generic version and stick them in a Kandoo container). He had put almost the entire box of Kandoos in the toilet. I couldn't grab them all and they went down the toilet only to get stuck somewhere and then CLOG the toilet. Which sucks for various reasons. One-We only have ONE toilet in this old house, TWO-I tried to plunge and plunge and plunge to no avail. And I knew a $70 plumber call was my next step.

Was this my son's "fault"? Yes. Should I have made him feel bad about it? NO. I started yelling when I realized that I would have to call the plumber. Should I reiterate that we only have ONE in the house? And there are 3 outta the 4 of us who need to use it? Anyway, I didn't just yell, I made him feel terrible. I told him that he ruined our morning. That he made a big mistake. yadda, yadda, yadda. I haven't yelled like this, this rageful yelling in AGES. There are a handful of times, where something that Bears did has caused us a lot of trouble and I've lost my mind (like locking us out of the house on a rainy day, pushing an unknown button on our car and locking us out of our car in a parking lot 45 minutes from home where I had to call the cops to help, etc., etc). I know it's completely irrational. It wasn't the end of the world. The plumber came, unclogged it, wrote him a check and he was gone. It was not worth my yelling. And it was certainly not worth what Bears said in the middle of my tirade to make me stop. We were in his bedroom and he was standing in front of the full-length mirror and he said, "I just give up on myself."







I have never heard anything like this come out of his mouth. I obviously had made him feel like such crap. Ladies, I don't know what I want here. I grabbed him and hugged him and apologized and told him that we all make mistakes, and that mommy was the person who reall screwed up this morning, not him. That he should never feel bad about himself, but we all feel bad about mistakes sometimes.

I just have never heard such a thing come out of his mouth before, and it literally broke my heart. I can't believe I took this opportunity to do it right, to face a challenging anger-producing moment and turn it okay, and I screwed it up royally. thanks for listening.


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## Magella

Oh, Bearsmama!





















I wish I had something else to offer to make it better.

One thing I struggle with is this: I have gotten so much better. I have. But once in awhile I still really lose it. I do manage to forgive myself most of the time, and by that I mean I recognize that I royally screwed up and was unfair and unkind to my child(ren) and pick myself back up to try again to do better (and of course apologize to my kids). And I am getting better. But those moments now when I lose it are discouraging, and I do wonder...is there a time when you stop forgiving yourself? I have very recently felt like Bears, feeling like giving up on myself. But since I think there's no way my child should give up on herself, I guess the same goes for me. What else is there, but to stand up, brush the dust off, and start over again. And each time I do that, it makes me a better mom in the long run. It's just not always easy, in any given moment, to not screw up. And I don't always know that my kids will be okay, I do wonder. But I think odds are they will be okay. I can't do more than try my best every day. That's all any of us humans can do. And I think you, like me, really do try your hardest and do your best every day. There are just some moments when our best just isn't all that wonderful, and we can't see straight to do better until after the moment has passed.

I wish you a better day. Be gentle with Bears, be gentle with yourself. Focus on just loving everyone, forget all the rest.


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- here comes my best voice of reason....

But first- I woke this morning to the dog going nuts and it was clear we had a critter in the house. The only sole brave enough to check it out was the 4 year old, who checked behind the couch and said "I think its a bird, no... Momma- its a duck!" So we had a very messy morning extracting the wood duck from my house. And before you ask- because everyone has... I don't know how the duck got in my house, she didn't say.

Ok- we handled the duck situation well with a bit of help from grandpa. The point mainly is I had a way better morning than some people did. Oh- and today I have been so aware that I do not have high needs kids. I just don't. I have the easiest tempered children. I know this like no one can know without a high needs kid.

On the other hand, easy kids still flush stuff. Dear, dear Bearsmama-I think the difference is that you must always feel like it is the last straw. I don't know a parent alive who would calmly accept an overflowing toilet. I am sure that it got your attention when Bears said what he said- isn't that the point? He knows how to get your attention- don't make more of it than this. He saw you going over the cilff and made sure you saw just how far you were going. And you stopped and shifted gears. He got you to realize how over the top you were being, he got you to re-assess the situation. I know you can't see this yet, but I think it worked out pretty well. You acted like the toilet was the end of the world and when he agreed with you, you let him know how you really felt. People go crazy! And then they recover. You demonstate that so well.

Ok- the kids are yelling... more later. But honestly- sticks and stones! People say mean things to us and we have to learn to ignore them. Now, of course we hope they don't have to learn that lesson at home too often but human parents are great teachers.

More later.


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## TEAK's Mom

On the totally light and frivolous side, Bears, at least he didn't flush a wood duck down the toilet. Sorry, it slipped out.

You know, it is exactly when I have situations like an overflowing toilet that I lose it, too. I think, for me, it is feeling out of control: how do I clean up the mess, keep the dogs from drinking it, keep the toddler from splashing, keep it from soaking into the wood floors...? I lose it when I'm scared.

More soon!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
On the other hand, easy kids still flush stuff. Dear, dear Bearsmama-I think the difference is that you must always feel like it is the last straw.

I just want to say that I don't know about you Bearsmama, but this is the perfect description of how life with my dd feels to me so much of the time. LIving in a constant stae of crisis is tough. Maureen, I am so glad you are here.


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## Bearsmama

Mamas, I'm so happy you're all here.









First, I realized where he got the "give up" thing. DH and I say this when we're getting frustrated sometimes, like, when we're trying to get pants on the little one, or trying to help Bears get outta one of his moods, "I give up". So, I am taking Maureen's advice on this one at this point in my day and taking it for what it was. Perhaps I read too much into it? Perhaps he really meant it? Perhaps he knew that it would get me? Who knows?

Yes, Maureen, I often feel that this is the "last straw". In fact, with Bears, even the "normal" stuff is so anger-producing for some reason. I realize that even easy kids flush stuff. But it was Bears. Bears brings it all out in me. I'm glad it wasn't a wood duck, TEAKS. Man, if I could have thought of that at the time, I wouldn't have had such a lousy mama morning.

You know, it takes me a realllllly long time to learn things. And I am now understanding that the big changes I have made in my life have come after much falling down. The only difference is that now with children, these changes come with a benefit for TWO people: me and the kids. I am realizing that my anger only hurts me. Or should I say, my reaction and handling of my anger. I have a really hard time with this emotion. Can ya tell?







I think there was a lot of rage in my family, and not a lot of just processing the normal, daily angry moments we all deal with in life and in a family.

I am running out of time b/c the kids are ready for bed, and I am needed. So I am finishing up. But Maureen-I really do think you're right about human parents. And I agree that I hope they don't have to learnh this lesson at home too often. I really do agree. I get it. And I thank you for being here.









sledg-Going back to the changing things-You are right? What else is there to do but our best, and to try to learn? And to get up each time and try again and again and again? I think the worst would be if we just settled. Settled for whatever state we're in--like, I can't do any better. I know I can do better. And I do on most days.

Okay, I'm not being eloquent. Or half as thankful and appreciative of all of your wonderful support as I need to be. But no time. I know this falls under the "regular kid stuff" category, but I really feel so close to all of you that I know I can share it all. This challenging kids thread has sometimes turned into the "challenged mamas" thread for me.

More when I can. Thanks, friends.


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## 4Marmalade

I only made it through half of the thread but just had to join in and wanted to post before heading to bed. All I know is that I don't feel so alone anymore so thankyou to Bearsmama for starting this thread and to everyone for posting your stories and thoughts. I am having some quiet time after a really rough day with my almost 3-1/2 year old ds. I couldn't even begin to explain it all. I ended up yelling at him in my loudest voice and slamming a door (really hard). The end result of a day of high-pitched screaming and hitting. Then I had a ds crying that I scared him and a baby dd crying because I'm sure I scared her. Heck...I scared myself







.

I am so tired of walking on eggshells because I'm not sure what is going to set him off next time. Will it be because he got caught up playing with a toy after saying goodbye to daddy that he forgot to look out the window and see him drive out the driveway? Will it be because we had to compost the cauliflower that he kept wanting to "save" for next time? Maybe it will be because his sister won't look at him right away when he wants to show her something. It's not so much that he feels disappoinment or sadness about these things, it's just that it can go on for so long. After 10 minutes of empathy I just want to tell him to "suck it up" and "get over it". I will not call daddy at work and tell him to come back home so you can watch him drive out the driveway.

He gets in this mode of "craziness". It will start with throwing a ball in the house (which we don't allow) and moves on to every other thing that we don't allow. Running around, screaming, laughing, trying to get a rise out of me (which usually happens). He will not listen to anything verbal, even brought down to his level so we end up physically removing him from the situation but that's not working either as he just ends up laughing uncontrollably and hitting me. When I ask him why he is hitting he just says he thinks it's funny. I don't know...I know there's other issues but it honestly feels at the time that he does just think it's funny.

I'm feeling so overwhelmed right now because we aren't sure what approach to take with ds. And we aren't being consistent and dh and myself are both so frustrated. I have all of these ideas floating around in my head but I can't grasp on to them and I'm not sure how to apply them.

Just struggling and feeling oh so sad







Off to read some more of "Raising Your Spirited Child" to remind myself again that my ds is "normal" and he has wonderful qualities that are going to make me a proud mama of a very determined and persistent adult who is going to do wonderful things with his life. If only I don't crush his spirit.


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Mama to one! You have found the best corner of this wonderful on-line community. Once you get ok with your humanity, you get ok with theirs. That is what it is all about and it only takes a few lifetimes to get it straight.









I have to say- almost 10,000 views of this thread.... we should really think of publishing. There are some great books out there- but there is nothing like this.

Goodnight all! Tomorrow is another day.


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## Magella

Welcome, Mama to one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama to one*
I am so tired of walking on eggshells because I'm not sure what is going to set him off next time.

I really wanted to comment on this. I was thinking last night about how hard it can be to change, and everything that was posted yesterday. I realized something that I hadn't really thought about before. In addition to having to unlearn everything I've learned about (not) handling anger and other unpleasant feelings, in addition to also having to learn how to best respond to and create a supportive environment for a very challenging child, there's this other aspect of living with my challenging kid that contributes to the difficulty I have in changing my ways. And that aspect is this: living with a person who can explode at any time over the slightest thing or for no apparent reason is, as Mama to one said, to live walking on eggshells. Now, my child is certainly not the most challenging kid out there and she does have some really easy times. But those difficult times are so very difficult in part b/c of the near constant stress-trying to anticipate what might set her off, trying to avoid anything that might set her off, being vigilant in order to jump in to head off any aggression that might suddenly happen nearly out of the blue, trying to help her calm down or just enduring the tantrum while trying to care for two other kids. Sometimes it seems as though there is no relaxing, no just living casually-if nothing else there's all the planning to avoid the meltdowns, and very little if any time during the day to take a moment to recharge or calm down (if it gets to the point where I really need a break to calm down myself so I don't do or say anything I'll regret, well my child is right there screaming at me at my side or through the door or whatever).

It's just one more factor that contributes to how difficult it is to change and become a better parent. The constant under-current of stress is just an added factor that is hard to cope with, it does sort of make everything into that last straw. Fortunately, none of it is insurmountable. During those times when I've managed to, as I said earlier, relax into the uncertainty and deal with each incident by itself as it comes, I do much better. The fear-like TEAK's mentioned-is huge for me. Until I started really paying attention to my feelings, I had no idea how often I feel fear. Whenever I'm angry, there's always some other feeling that goes with it or lies underneath it-and so often that feeling is fear. And part of not being able to relax into the uncertainty of life with my daughter is the fear of setting her off and the fear of handling it poorly when she does meltdown. And there's really no reason for that fear, but it's there. This is the biggest thing to let go of, the fear-of my dd's melting down, of screwing up my kids, of not being in control/feeling safe (as in when the toilet overflows and there's a wood duck running around the house and squirrels nesting in the walls and no one has underwear or socks to wear today because Mount Laundry has become sentient from being neglected for so long and can't be tamed...), of what might be wrong with my child, and on and on.

Uh, I think I had more of a point but I've forgotten. It's taken me a long time to write this, between taking care of the kids (it'd be better to do this when they aren't awake, but I was on the computer about bill paying stuff and got distracted) and dealing with the off-balance washer that sounded like it was going to blow up. Somewhere in there I forgot if I had another point. Hope I didn't ramble too much.

Hope you all have a wonderful day!


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I realized where he got the "give up" thing. DH and I say this when we're getting frustrated sometimes, like, when we're trying to get pants on the little one, or trying to help Bears get outta one of his moods, "I give up". So, I am taking Maureen's advice on this one at this point in my day and taking it for what it was. Perhaps I read too much into it? Perhaps he really meant it? Perhaps he knew that it would get me? Who knows?

I'd bet that he's expressing his frustration in the same way he sees you express yours. That's all.

Wasn't it Maureen who said, a long time ago, that kids are not fragile little hothouse flowers? That they are stronger than we give them credit for and really can weather the storms of daily life, even when the storm is mom or dad handling things in a less-than-ideal way?

Quote:

"When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don't blame the lettuce. You look into the reasons it is not doing well." -Thich Nhat Hanh
You are the lettuce. Your kids are the lettuce. We're all lettuce. Don't blame the lettuce-understand it, show it some compassion, help it grow.

Maureen:"So if we are growing lettuce, we don't expect that every moment will be the perfect ratio of sun to rain. We understand that days of sun, days of rain, thunderstorms, wind, seed genetics, fertilizer and weed control contribute to beautiful lettuce. I worry about Mommas who are so worried about "getting it right". If you are thinking about, trying, reading some good stuff and honest and open about your humanity- your kids are getting better than most on the planet. They are so resilient- an occasional thunderstorm won't damage them."( thread here)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
When you start seeds indoors, they often grow tall and spindley. Part of what makes plants grow strong is that they are exposed to the elements. Our children aren't hothouse flowers, they are sunflowers.... and sometimes we are the sun and sometimes we are the rain, and sometimes we are the wind.thread here


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## MsMoMpls

Wow Sledg- I sound so wise when quoted... I am serious- lets publish this thread!!! It also is my reminder that things ebb and flow. We have rough spots and smooth spots and it works out. Right now my smooth spot is time to recharge my batteries and work on my house, my career and my marriage because you just never know when the next storm is going to blow through.


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## Magella

Well, Maureen, you _are_ so wise!

Wonder what would happen if this thread were published.


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## TEAK's Mom

Can you all just imagine what it would have been like to read this thread when our babies were just starting out? Instead of hearing of the people who insisted that something was wrong, to hear that it is ok and there are ways to grow from the experience? With good editing, this thread would make an outstanding book.


----------



## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
Can you all just imagine what it would have been like to read this thread when our babies were just starting out? Instead of hearing of the people who insisted that something was wrong, to hear that it is ok and there are ways to grow from the experience? With good editing, this thread would make an outstanding book.

Wow. I am really thinking about this, about what it really would have been like if we all had these wise words and honest mamas to turn to, to listen to, to LEARN from in the early days of parenting. Back when I (and I'm sure many of us) thought that there was the ideal parent out there and it was our goal to try to measure up. It would have been revelatory for me (did I spell that right?).

This would make a good book, wouldn't it?







It's morphed into so many different things. From my last cry for help (over the "normal" 4 yo stuff) to most of our day-to-day difficulties of living with our unique, challenging kids.

I really do feel lately that I was given Bears for a reason. That no one else knows how to parent him like I do, and yes, that means bad days, awful moments, falling down. But it also means lots of love and fun and forgiveness. And I'm starting to believe that by accepting him and all his complexities, I am learning ever so slowly to accept myself.

If I had had my 2nd child first, I wouldn't have the same feelings. He doesn't push me, challenge me, in the same way that Bears does. And it's not simply the 2nd child syndrome-he's really EASIER. And not remotely as challenging as Bears. Normal, normal, normal stuff (although I really hate to use that word, 'cuz WHAT'S NORMAL, EXACTLY?














But I'm sure you all KWIM.

And sledg-Thanks for pulling out those wise words of Maureen's. And in Maureen's most recent post of support for me, I really like what she said about how we have to learn to ignore some things people say. Sticks and stones. And that one hopes that these lessons aren't learned disproportionately at home. I think that's the key. I don't want him to learnt ot have a thick skin from his mama-even thinking about that makes me want to cry. But I guess on some level, even mama is going to eventually say something that is going to piss him off or hurt his feelings. Even if we sailed through childhood, it would be BOUND to happen in the teenage years. Right, Maureen? I think this all goes back to the balance thing. Like, it's a dance. And it's not all perfect, in fact, most of it is not. But when we're at the park this morning and the kids are running around and the breeze is gently blowing my little one's hair across his face and Bears is laughing, laughing, laughing. That's pretty close to perfect.









Mama to One-Welcome.







:

I've been thinking so much about balance, or trying to attain balance. The dance of a marriage we've discussed, the dance of raising kids. Just like Maureen said, she knows another storm might blow thru soon. I've been thinking about it in dieting terms lately, too. I've struggled with my weight since having my kids. And I think I finally got it, that it's not about whether or not I ate all the oatmeal cookies last Sunday. But it's about how balanced the whole week was. Did I take care of my hunger (anger?) when I had it? Did I pay attention to my body? If I was really hungry, etc.

Okay, weird analogy.

Gtg. More later. Love to all my mamas here.


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## Magella

Interesting to think about what it would've been like to have all this wisdom years ago, I agree.

Very little time, but I wanted to say I just found out the most interesting thing. Background: Dd's tics are suddenly (over the last two weeks) more severe and complicated. Last night I was nearly in tears watching her get upset and suddenly half her face is tic-ing in this huge way I've never seen. Dh and I, in these last few weeks, are suddenly very concerned about our daughter (again). Actually, I think this is the first time dh has actually been seriously concerned-he's always been sort of "you really think so?" when I've talked about getting her help before, and he's never really taken the diet alteration seriously. We talked last night, and decided we're going to take her to our chiropractor for starters, and get really serious (finally) about a good elimination diet as well as look into other ways of addressing her health through nutrition and possibly homeopathy. We just can't bring ourselves to go through the traditional psychiatric route yet, not when there's so much we can try that's gentle and natural. Least intrusive first, yk? (Beside, I don't really think there's much an psychiatrist or physician can do for us other than give us a label or yet another behavior plan.) So I was looking for information and happened upon this little tidbit of information that said sleep disorders are correlated with childhood disorders such as adhd, tourettes, odd-and that sometimes the sleep disorder is comorbid but sometimes the sleep disorder causes the symptoms. And I was intrigued, b/c dd has never slept well or quietly, so I started digging into sleep disorders. I've always known something is up with dd, that her sleep is not normal, I just don't know what to call it and so far as I knew there's no treatment. But what I read not only totally accurately described dd's sleep problems, but indicated that yes indeed these sleep disorders are associated with many of her daytime issues/symptoms. And I learned how to deal and not deal with her sleep problems. And addressing her sleep issues is just one more tool we have to address her daytime behavior and tics.

I'm sorry to monopolize. I'm very worried about dd right now. Again. We seem to go through these phases where she gets suddenly very "bad" and we freak out. In the past she has always gotten "better" and we've relaxed again. It's like a rollercoaster. This time around I've decided to take daily notes and get some video of her tics, to really get some good records of her food intake and sleep and anything else that might help us figure out how to help her. There's something about her face and her tics when she's upset (well, her tics all the time right now) that just make my heart ache for her, and in all honesty scares me a little-I mean the thought of those tics getting worse or just not going away and how that can impact people's perception of her is sort of agonizing, yk? And the worry that it could actually be a sign of stress and inner turmoil rather than a neurological/physiological thing is scary too, even though I don't think that's the case.

So where is the balance between accepting your child as is, and wanting to help them "get better"? Is it a matter of accepting each day and each moment for what it is, while at the same time doing what you can to make sure she's at her healthiest and learning the skills she needs to cope with life?


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## Bearsmama

sledg-Not much time, either, but wanted to give you







and support and love. And tell you that although we have differences in terms of what we've seen with our challenging kids, I've had the same feeling: When do we accept them "as-is", and if we do this, are we ignoring some kind of treatale, underlying issue? Or worse?

Also, I have a dear friend IRL whose son was dx last year with Idiopathic Seizure Disorder. Sounds worse than it is, but he has tic issues. And Tourette's was something that was brought up. He's also riddled with anxiety and is OCD about many, many things. Interesting, through our first meetings with a psychologist, we learned that OCD, anxiety, Tourette's, even autism, and many, many more things, all come from the same part of the brain. They are all somewhat interconnected. Which makes loads of sense to those of us who've pursued professional help for our kids with some of these issues. Some of these things are umbrella issues. For instance, AD/ADHD has many, many symptoms or other things that pop up along with it--including anxiety, depression, Tourette's, OCD, etc. Not sure what comes first exactly. I'm not making myself clear here, but had to write immediately and let you know that you are NOT ALONE. I'll write more when I can. Hang in there. Maybe Maureen has some words here with her professional hat on??? More later, sledg.


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## Bearsmama

One more quick thing after re-reading your last paragraph. We worry about this all the time with Bears. We are currently not seeing anyone professionally. Quite frankly, the 2nd person we found who we really liked is quite pricey and not covered by our insurance. Coincidentally, some of Bears's issues have waned a bit in recent months, so it seemed OKAY to leave this to the back burner for a while. Although I am constantly questioning whether we should be more diligent about things. He has seemed to outgrow some of the behaviors in the past 5 months or so, and is better able to express himself, get over things, etc. But he is still BEARS, and still has many issues that aren't "normal". And I worry that these differences will rear their ugly heads when he reaches school age (he's 4 now, and k-garten is only less 1.5 years away). SO, this is constant thing for us. HAve we done enough? Should we pursue things further? No one can diagnose Bears--yet. Last guy we saw said that anyone who says that they can dx a child Bear's age with ADD/ADHD is lying. That they can just give us probabilities and what they can potential mean for him and for us. I am always wondering, should I do more? Am I conveniently seeing improvements? OR running into scheduling/cost issues with the psych b/c I don't want to admit that something is wrong? Just rambling, but I thought sharing this might help.


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## emblmrgrl

Wow, so much to say! My kids were on spring break last week so I was hiding out with them (and from them at times







). We've just been existing for the most part. Nothing too big going on, which is always a good thing. Cole was doing really well in school the week before spring break. Enough so that his teacher sent me a note saying if he finished his week out that way, that he'd receive a special prize. Well, I think she messed up when she told HIM that. He had a rough last day that week and didn't get his prize. But, oh well!

The spring sports are in full swing here, too, and so he's staying pretty busy. Baseball is going miraculously well for him this time. His coach has a world full of patience and there's another little boy there that is nearly as rowdy as Cole so I get a huge kick out of watching those two interact.

Couple things I wanted to comment on ...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
You know, it takes me a realllllly long time to learn things. And I am now understanding that the big changes I have made in my life have come after much falling down.

It takes me a while to get things sometimes, too. And, y'know, Cole is the SAME way! Took me quite a while to figure that out even, but it's one of those things where he IS like me. Of course when I'm not thinking of that, my expectations of him rise and thus begins another cycle of frustration.

And Sledg, the sleep thing. Our pediatrician pointed out how big the sleep issue was when I was having a meltdown in her office one day and was begging for her help. She wanted to regulate Cole's sleep pattern before we tested for anything because of the impact restless sleep has on a body. All sounded great, but she wanted me to put him on a blood pressure med to get it regulated and I politely declined. Figured I'd find another way to handle it. So sleep is a big deal over here too. It's gotten a teensy bit better for us (meaning he's no longer up at 3am now) but I still don't have any real solutions for him getting really restful sleep.

Also, to whomever asked the question about our DH's and their responses to these kiddos ... my DH has primarily been in the camp that Cole's issues are disciplinary, and frankly, for a long time, so was I. I think in the last year though my DH has come to see that he's NOT wired the same as the others.


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## Magella

emblmrgrl, I did ask about dh's responses to our kiddos but accidentally deleted it (darn computer!) and didn't have time to retype it. Dh is slowly moving away from the disciplinary to the "brain functioning" point of view. As am I, so to complain about dh is to be the pot calling the kettle black.

And thanks so much emblmrgrl, for your tidbit on sleep and what your doc said. That's very helpful.

Bearsmama, thank you so much. I just called the pedi's office to arrange for time to talk to the pedi. He's not in. We'll see if he actually calls back. Anyway, I think that I personally need to seek some sort of professional advice-I would be open to seeing a neurologist to rule things out (as in, make sure there's nothing serious physically going on), but am still not ready or willing to go the psychiatrist route.

Ah, gotta run.







Thanks all.


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## MsMoMpls

Wow such great stuff going on and I am supposed to be doing my taxes. Do you women know just how distracting you are? How am I supposed to get anything done around here.









I only have a second but there is a woman in town Mary Kay Kurchinca who wrote Your Spirited Child. She is the guru around here on kids like ours. Her most recent book- just out which I haven't read is Sleepless in America-Is your child misbehaving or missing sleep? I haven't read it but plan to.

I have started sending more and more of my clients for sleep studies. I just sent a 7 year old who nothing has seemed to help- he's not quite ADD, not quite depressed... just not responding to anything. Nate also has/had huge sleep issues.

The theory used to be that people with mental illness had sleep issues and more and more it is looking like the other way around. The sleep issues cause anxiety and depression. Not sure what it all means but sledg I would certainly keep the sleep issue in mind. Not sure who would be more helpful... a neurologist will likely tell you she has Tourettes. Tics are just a marker. They symbolize a wiring problem. Nate feels the tics are easy compared to all the other stuff. But I did always watch his tics to see what his stress level was like- when he got more tics it often meant a growth spurt or overly tired or getting sick. And there is very little medically that can be done for tics. The medicines are way worse than the disease.

I think chiro care is a great idea- even if nothing else than that tics are really hard on the body. And a system in alignment should have less stress.

Ok- I have to go back to work but wanted to share my concern that sleep disorders may be causing more of our kids problems than I ever considered. This is all cutting edge stuff no one is really going to have easy answers for yet.

More later,
Maureen


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## Bearsmama

No time,
But...Hi to Emblm.

Also, sledg-yes, the neurologist is the correct route for these concerns. That's who my friend brought her son to. Apparently, we have one of the nation's experts at CHoP in pediatric neurology.

Our pattern was: Found a good referral to a psych., psych reccommended a full battery of testing at a private clinic. Would have cost thousands of dollars that we just didn't/don't have, after a few sessions with this person he reccommended some stuff we didn't agree with AT ALL. Stopped seeing him. During our few sessions with him, a few things came up. Possible Asperger's. Then, the psych was pretty sure that our future held a dx of ADD/ADHD. Like I said, many, many of these issues (some OCD, anxiety, outbursts, inability to control mood, etc., all can easily fit ADD/ADHD). Then, started looking into all this stuff. We got an evaluation at a local play therapy place that came back "inconclusive", but yet, they still recc. 3x/weekly therapy. We weren't sure for WHAT, exactly. Found another guy through our pediatrician (psych), who we really liked, but was pricey and very, very hard to schedule with. Said the same things, basically. Does he show signs of some stuff, yes. Is it a definite thing that he will have these issues (these DIAGNOSABLE) issues later? NO. Actually said to me at one point that he could send us to CHoP for an evaluation by a pediatric developmental person,but that it would cost us thousands of dollars only for her to say what he's saying: There's just NO WAY OF KNOWING. B/c so much of Bear's stuff falls within a grey area. Oh, and the reason we found the 2nd person is that our pediatrician finally got to see Bears in Full meltdown when DH brought him in for his 4 year check. After two years of me checking in with her and saying that I thought something was wrong, she always said the same thing: IF YOU think something is amiss, go forward with finding help. But she had never seen anything firsthand, so sort of downplayed it all.

Don't know why I'm sharing all this. Other than to say that it is maze of things when you really want to get to the bottom of a real issue with your kid. I have much more to say on this subject, but the HELP IS out there. Ya just gotta find it.

Also, sleep is huge. A therapist friend of mine says that the first question she asks her depressed patients is how much sleep are they getting. So, it is clearly a part of all of this.

Rambling, ladies. More later.


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## Magella

OMG!!! I am in posting h*ll. I lost yet another whole post. The last one I edited, I deleted half of it. I am really having problems with this computer today.

Anyway. Maureen, thanks! I say Mary Kurcinka's book on sleep at the bookstore, maybe the library has it. Sounds interesting. Yk, we have always noted that the increased daytime difficulties (aggression, tic, meltdowns) tend to coincide with increased sleeping difficulties. We always thought it was the daytime stress/issues that caused the increased sleeping problems, or that maybe foods/other caused both the daytime problems and the sleeping problems. But maybe we've had it backwards, and it's the sleep that's really the problem or a major part of the problem. And it makes sense, b/c haven't we long known that going completely without sleep for long periods of time results in things like hallucinations or psychosis/other mental health problems? (That's digging way back to psych 101, so I may be wrong.) I am very hopeful about the chiropractor, and at the very least it'll help with the tension and overall health as you said. It might help, it won't hurt-we have a wonderful and trusted chiropractor. We've only put off bringing her to the chiro this long b/c our insurance no longer covers it (crappy new insurance) and it's so expensive. But we have decided that it's time, we'll find a way.

As far as a neurologist goes, I don't expect much truthfully-if we even get that far. Maybe a name, so we can explain to our freaking-out family members. Maybe the end to wondering. Both of those are big maybe's, I think. The absolute last thing I want for my daughter is medication. I am very, very leery about the use of medications in general (even over-the-counter meds, I've had some bad experiences with meds-no meds should be taken lightly IMO), but I'm especially leery about the use of psychotropic medications in children-hence my major reluctance to involve the school or psychologists, call me paranoid. Medication is not what I'm looking for at all. I know there's really nothing to be done for tics (well, there's some stuff out there about affecting tics, but not eliminating them, through lifestyle/nutrition-however accurate or inaccurate that is), that's not my concern. I guess it's just that you see something odd getting odder, and you want to make sure you're taking care of your kid and not letting something major go without attention.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I am constantly questioning whether we should be more diligent about things. He has seemed to outgrow some of the behaviors in the past 5 months or so, and is better able to express himself, get over things, etc. But he is still BEARS, and still has many issues that aren't "normal". And I worry that these differences will rear their ugly heads when he reaches school age (he's 4 now, and k-garten is only less 1.5 years away). SO, this is constant thing for us. HAve we done enough? Should we pursue things further? No one can diagnose Bears--yet. Last guy we saw said that anyone who says that they can dx a child Bear's age with ADD/ADHD is lying. That they can just give us probabilities and what they can potential mean for him and for us. *I am always wondering, should I do more? Am I conveniently seeing improvements? OR running into scheduling/cost issues with the psych b/c I don't want to admit that something is wrong? Just rambling, but I thought sharing this might help.*









I can relate. I have been second-guessing myself for a long time. I've asked the same questions-am I using the cost/no-medication/improvement in dd/pusuing alternative & dietary measures as least invasive/other issues because I'm in denial? I think I'm following my instincts and doing what I think is best, but am I? Or am I wrong about what's best? Is my fear of labeling her so young harming her or, if not harming her, preventing her from being helped? It does help so much to hear your words. At least it's comforting, in a way, to know I'm not alone.

Also, Bearsmama, it's interesting what you said about all these things originating in the same area of the brain. That makes sense, in a way I can't articulate right now. And it makes sense that this is why it's so difficult to diagnose these things. A similar idea was actually tossed around a bit in a thread here about mothering highly sensitive children, wondering if a lot of the labels tossed around there (SID, highly sensitive, adhd) are all actually just different ways of looking at the same thing. Interesting.

It helps to hear everyone's words.







Thank you again. You ladies are wonderful.

Oooh, Bearsmama just saw your last post (been typing this for ages, what with losing my post and the kids needing snacks). Thanks for sharing both your own experience and your friend's. It's difficult to know where to start. I'm dreading the maze, and convincing the pedi something's wrong so we get a referral (hence, the plan for videotaping and a detailed diary-did a search on my posts and see that we recognized that the tics were actually tics more than a year ago, and we know she was tic-ing before we realized they were tics, so we have a decent timeline). It's so overwhelming and so scary. And the thought of actually bringing her to see doctors....ugh. She is scared, so scared, of doctors-it's not easy and it's not pretty.

Okay, gotta run. The kids are resting in front of the dreaded tv after our trip to the park where dd twisted her ankly badly. Thanks again for being here.


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## Bearsmama

Sledg-Quick things here:

First-Start keeping that diary/journal! In fact, this is what the first psych. requested that we do. We did this consistently for about 2-3 weeks. I wrote everything down-down to if he slept weird one night, and how I may have thought that affected the day's behavior. I think this would have been more helpful had we stayed with it for longer. But for the psych's purposes, it worked.

Second-Bears HATES DOCTORS. The last incident at the ped's may have very well been his last. He has always HATED the doctor (and we have an amazingly wonderful, gentle, warm ped). Since he was an infant, no lie. The Halloween after my 2nd was born, though, DH had to bring him in and my ped was dressed up in a costume for the occasion. This single-handedly changed his view of the doctor. And for a while there, anytime we had to go, even for the little one where he would come, he was fine, fine, fine. Then, out of nowhere, he literally had a grand mal tantrum in early February. One that the doctors and nurses were even amazed at, one where they couldn't even TALK to him. One where he was spitting (yes, spitting) and making sounds and generally losing his mind (very nice mothering words, huh?







)
So, I completely GET that there's the added dread of dragging a child thru all this stuff when you know it will be a giant ordeal. For her AND for you.

More when I can. Thinking of you, sledg.


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## Bearsmama

More-
I am really, really leery of meds, too. I know that they help many, many children with psychological issues. But personally, I was really worried about seeing someone b/c I just knew that somewhere along the line they would reccommend meds. In fact, the first guy, when going over the potential outcomes/diagnoses, and treatment with us for Bears, he mentioned that "we've found that kids like Bears respond very well to small amounts of meds". Which is true for many kids with ADD/ADHD. (I should reiterate here that we don't even know that this is his issue, but that it is one of the things that's been brought up).

About the tics--my friend's son-the doc told them that meds could help, but that in 80% of these cases of ISD (ideopathic seizure dis-which is, I guess, what the ticking is), it goes away on it's own. So it was up to them to go the meds route or not.

Also, original psych explained some of this neuro stuff to me in an interesting way. Said that these aren't just behavioral issues-and if they have a neurological basis, they can be treated. He said that with ADD/ADHD and associated things, these kids experience a "storm" in that part of the brain. And they can't control it. And it makes them feel outta control. Then, they act out in an effort to try to manage what's happening involuntarily in their brain.

I know that much of this probably doesn't pertain to your dd, but just rambling here.

they're calling me ....gtg.


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- I am going to give my positive med speech. I want to start by saying that meds are scary and unpredictable and not well researched. And I have to add that Nate won't take any now that he is an adult, even though even he agrees that they would likely help.

Ok- these are biological illnesses. The brain is responding in an unnatural way. Storms and tics are not behavioral, they are neurological. We don't know much about the brain. Meds can sometimes feel like setting the house on fire because your feet are cold. But they do work. They work wonders for some kids. They save lifes. They save parents. They are often the best thing we have even as bad as they are.

I once saw a little girl, who was about 9. She was so shy in my office that she hid behind the couch and wouldn't talk to me at all. Her little sister who was 7 did all the talking. They looked so similar but were worlds apart in temperment. This mom had done therapy and parenting work and nothing was working. Her kid was just anxious and timid. I reluctantly recommended a short trial of a low dose of Welbutrin. A month later this kid came into my office smiling and telling me stories and thanking me. Her life was dramatically improved in one month. She could tell me that now she enjoyed school and liked her friends. She even rode in a parade and waved to all the people. Her mother was close to tears. Even the 7 year old thanked me.

They aren't all like that but there are more than I can count. Sorry ladies, but I have more positive than negative stories. I have lots of reluctance and fears but I also have some stories that look like voodoo. Just keep an open mind. There may be kids whose parents medicate them too easily but I have never met one. I only see parents that reluctantly give into the idea that there is something seriously wrong medically with their child.

I honor your choices. I completely get your fears. But I have to tell you where I stand... meds are scary but... don't lock the door on them.


----------



## Bearsmama

Maureen-I really like and respect what you say about meds. I also want to go on record here (someone's keeping a record here, right?







) to say that pharmaceuticals have helped many, many people I know and love. My sister has battled depression for most of her life, and it took her years to start on a medication. She takes a low dose of an anti-depressant and I feel that it has changed her life in the past 10 years. I also have a dear friend whose dd is our god-daughter. She has many issues, one of which was/is OCD and anxiety. She is 13 and her mother believes that helping her with medication has changed all of their lives. I have many more stories like this, but I wanted to say it out loud, so-to-speak. Meds DO in fact change and SAVE lives. I know it.

That said, I think the fear may come b/c when talking about our kids were all, well, anxious about everything. And hesitant. B/c it's not us we're medicating, it's them. I remember my sister saying that she finally realized that if she had diabetes, she'd take insulin. And something was going on in her brain that affected her life on a daily basis, and taking something helped heal that. It worked. There's just so much more to worry about with kids, it seems, and meds.

We still have so much stigma attached to anything doing with our emotions being out of whack or our brains. We have come a loooooong way, but need to do so much more. Maureen-Thanks again for sharing your stories of your son's challenges and your professional experience.


----------



## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Also, Bearsmama, it's interesting what you said about all these things originating in the same area of the brain. That makes sense, in a way I can't articulate right now. And it makes sense that this is why it's so difficult to diagnose these things. A similar idea was actually tossed around a bit in a thread here about mothering highly sensitive children, wondering if a lot of the labels tossed around there (SID, highly sensitive, adhd) are all actually just different ways of looking at the same thing. Interesting.

I think there's something to this. As I've said before, my boys (the twins) are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to some sensitivity issues and then there are the times they cross paths. To get away from talking about Cole for a moment, Cyrus is highly sensitive. I think I even posted in that thread on mothering highly sensitive kids about Cy. A great example of typical incidents here occured yesterday afternoon on the ride home from school. Cole is singing, as loud as he can I think, and Cyrus has his fingers in his ears and is crying. So I'm attempting to get Cole to stop (which requires being louder than him) and say "Buddy, please stop singing. It's upsetting Cy.", he says "Oh but why?!" so I reply, "Because you're being too loud and loud hurts our ears". Y'know what he says to me?? "But I like loud!". And it's true, the more obnoxious and boisterous he can be, the happier he is. Cy is of course, content with all quiet activites.

So I bring that up because having two kids at different ends of the spectrum allows me to see where they overlap and exactly what the similarities are. Especially because Cole appears to be "under" sensitive when in reality, it's quite a mix. Ok, so this in turn leads me to something else... I have no idea where I read this and I've searches many times for it again, but after I had the boys and the struggles were becoming obvious to me, I ran across an article talking about the effect of pregnancy on the baby. This article talked about how once a child is born, it's body will attempt to maintain the same hormone and/or stress levels it had in utero. In other words, if you were stressed or really hormonal that it would show up again in the child. Now for me, this is entirely right on the money. I was a nut case with the twins. I mainly remember this article b/c when my DH read it he was like "see, I told you it was your fault!"







But anyway, I thought I'd mention it. I'll keep looking for the actual article.

About meds ... yes, I'm resistant. I was REALLY resistant when my doc pulled the blood pressure med on me to help Cole sleep. I don't wanna play with his blood pressure. I know their are benefits to meds, my mother will never be unable to live without her anti-depressants and it's been a blessing to have them. But, I really want to exhaust all alternatives before I go that route. Kinda like when I had high blood pressure at age 23, I found a way to control it without meds. My mom had the opportunity to control her diabetes without meds, first. I just don't want to take the easy out even if that's where I end up.

Now I'm off to look for Mary Kurcinka's book on sleep! LOL


----------



## Magella

I thank you for sharing your positive stories of medications, Maureen. It really is helpful to hear something positive about medications, and to hear your professional experiences. I do realize that medications help a great many people. I do give my children medications for illnesses when they need them. I'm just cautious when it comes to my kids, meds are not the first thing I think of trying-because as Bearsmama said, it's my kids I'm making a decision for, not myself. And because just in general I think it's important for anyone to be cautious about medications. I just think of meds as a last resort, they are not out of the realm of possibility. There just way over there at the far corner of the realm. Other things to do before we get there, and hopefully we won't have to get there at all.

I have seen medications save people-I have family members whose lives are so much better with antidepressants, and I benefitted from them myself once. And that is mysterious and amazing. I've also seen them do mysterious and scary things-like when I took (over the counter) Claritin for 3 days and ended up so depressed I thought my kids would be better off without me and couldn't stop crying and became paranoid about all the everyday household items/activities that could hurt my kids. It came on fast, it was scary, I saw a psychiatrist. I also stopped taking the Claritin, on instinct, though I was so foggy and weird that I didn't remember that I took it or stopped taking it until it had started leaving my system enough, a few days later, that I was more myself again and feeling good. Then I remembered, and it was the only new thing in my life that could explain how it came out of the blue and then disappeared. The timing fit the known half-life of the medication in the body. And when it was all gone, I was fine. All this happened in a week. The psychiatrist agreed with me that it was likely the Claritin when I followed up with him, said he had a patient become severely depressed after taking antibiotics. I even followed up for several weeks with another counselor whom I had seen before, just to make sure I was okay for my kids' sake. The whole thing was weird. And very frightening.

And yet medications do save lives and families. They have their place. I just take them very, very seriously.

Off to pick up my son at preschool. Busy day ahead.

Oh, and thank you to Bearsmama for sharing with your last several posts and to emblmrgrl for your last post too. I could go on and on in response if I had more time today.


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## MsMoMpls

One more thing and then I will back off my med push- I worry a great deal that mother guilt interferes with kids getting appropriate treatment. We put too much pressure on parents and especially mothers to heal neurobiology which I just don't think is fair.

Ok- you all know I am not pushing meds. I want everyone to try lots of things first... and second... and well you all know.

Maureen


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I worry a great deal that mother guilt interferes with kids getting appropriate treatment. We put too much pressure on parents and especially mothers to heal neurobiology which I just don't think is fair.

Maureen, that is really a good point. Thank you. So much. You have no idea how helpful that is to me this morning.


----------



## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
One more thing and then I will back off my med push- I worry a great deal that mother guilt interferes with kids getting appropriate treatment. We put too much pressure on parents and especially mothers to heal neurobiology which I just don't think is fair.
Maureen

I really, really agree with this. And I have to say, and this is no slam against men, but IME it is almost ALWAYS the mother who is the one pushing for answers, and making the ultimate decisions about treatment/medication. This is just what I know to be true in my life and with my IRL friends and acquaintances. And I have a really INvolved and Evolved DH. But STILL I have been the one to pursue things with Bears, to push things, not to mention the appointment making, scheduling, etc. It's just what we do, I think. Okay, I'm ready for some slams if that sounds sexist, but it's just what I believe is the truth in many relationships.

We had a really loooooooong, tiring, but very, very, fun day with the kids. DH took the day off today and we had a ball. Thinking of you, sledg. Keep us posted.


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## Bearsmama

And another thing: Is there such a thing as FATHER guilt? Huh? If so, I wanna see it.


----------



## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And another thing: Is there such a thing as FATHER guilt? Huh? If so, I wanna see it.









Yeah, I think they do.









Not the same way that mothers have it, but fathers are still parents. They want to do right by their children just as much as moms do.
I think guilt is a small part of learning the parent. We are bound to make mistakes and even though we need to be forgiving of ourselves for that, it's hard to escape guilt totally.

Now my case is a bit extreme, but I'm sure other dads might have similar feelings.

My DH is military and has been deployed for some months now. He's been deployed before but this was the first time deployed since we've had dd. He is so very attached to her and I had a feeling it was going to be difficult for him.
Sure enough, it is SO much harder than he thought. He misses her (and me) so much. It breaks his heart that he has missed so many months of watching her grow. He is seriously considering getting out of the military when his time is up because he doesn't ever want to be away from us again.

I see him feeling conflicted about work in general, though. There are some jobs that he would like to have, but he feels that they wouldn't provide for us as well as other jobs. He has this guilt that says "I need to provide for my family and provide well" that conflicts with "But I want to be a very involved dad and be home with my child grow too."

I have tried to encourage him. I would rather see him take a job he love --less hours, even if it means a paycut, we will manage. It's just as important for dad to be happy, as well as mom.
But he is stuck in that "But I need to be the provider" because he wants me to be able to be the SAHM.

So lots of guilt there sadly, <sigh>.

But I'm sure we can work on it.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And another thing: Is there such a thing as FATHER guilt? Huh? If so, I wanna see it.









Yeah, I do think there is father guilt but that, like loon said, it's different. I see my dh's father guilt a lot lately. He gets frustrated, he yells, then he goes in the other room to cool off, then says things like "I try, and then [whatever], then I yell, then I feel like a bad father." He so wants to be a good dad, a gentle dad, to build a close relationship with is kids. Like me, he doesn't always know how to do that, and like me he falls short of his ideals sometimes and feels badly about that. I think that men don't really call it guilt, and they don't wallow in it in the same way moms do, and they don't talk about it as much (in general. my dh talks about it openly but not as much as I talk about it). But also, I think, men seem to be a little more...searching for a word here...carefree? about parenting-it's not all life and death and deadly serious and stuff to worry about much of the time. My dh and the men he knows who are fathers just don't tend to have that angst, not to the same degree anyway. I think that angst is a huge part of mother guilt.

And I do agree that it seems to be mothers who really do the lion's share of researching and advocating and seeking help and following through on getting that help and making appointments and so on. But a secret I know about why I do more of it than my dh....he thinks I know more about it, that I'm smarter about it, I read faster and enjoy reading, I've studied child development in school. He's not as confident about it (so there you go, he's not as confident about parenting as I just said he is). I think men are also generally less likely to seek out help, and I think that's societal conditioning.

Thanks for the hug, Bearsmama. I'm really feeling kind of overwhelmed and relieved at the same time now that we've actually decided it is time to seek help. Now the long road getting there, it doesn't seem like it's going to be quick and easy (and it is definitely not going to be inexpensive). If only I had a fairy godmother!


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## Bearsmama

Loon & sledg-I know, I know. I was being a bit sarcastic with the dad/father guilt comments. You know, I know that DH has moments when he feels guilty, etc. But I think what sledg says is true: the wallowing is different. The level of guilt, the mulling it over. I think in *general* we women tend to wallow a little longer, think things over a little more thoroughly, try to come up with next steps, etc. I find, however, that DH puts his "bad" feelngs into action a bit better than me. Okay, a lot better than me. Like, if he feels guilt, he actually changes the pattern that made him feel guilty. Or at least tries to. He may be a quicker learner than me.

Gtg. Made #1 mistake about 1/2 hour ago: Let the kids "help" me with some baking. I love to bake, and this is one of my passions. So, I really, really enjoy it when they're asleep.







That way, there are only one set of hands in the buttercream.

Happy Easter, Passover, and Happy Spring to all my mamas. More when I can.


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## WuWei

Sledg,

I am not reading all the time, but I saw the posts regarding your daughter's facial tics and I wanted to send my support about how scary and out of control this must feel for you all. I know that I have a need to understand what is happening with our son's life and heath, and I like things to be settled. Well, as "settled" as life ever is with him, lol. (We are currently experiencing an unsettled time, with necessary oral surgery for a tooth extraction, caps, fillings, etc. And I am beside myself with wanting *control*!!) As you may recall, I am an experienced critical care nurse and now embrace non-invasive homeopathic therapies for our family. So, the idea of stepping into the medical paradigm is frightening to me (HUGE understatement).

I also have a twitching eye which is worse without enough rest or due to increaded stress. However, it has been addressed with classical homeopathy. I wanted to share some possible options to consider in addition to homeopathy; which I *highly* recommend. It addresses the mind/body/experience in a holistic manner and strengthens the immune system by helping the body heal itself.

It sounds like your daughter may have a Bell's Palsy or Tourette's Syndrome. Here is a link about alternative care: http://www.latitudes.org/articles/le...s_families.htm

Two things which have helped our son with sleep issues are Omega 3 fatty acids (we takes a cod liver oil which is strawberry flavored and he loves it, believe it or not.) And also Melatonin for sleep. If you would like more information, please let me know. Dietary issues are paramount in our home, especially artificial colors, flavors and *preservatives* (TBHQ, nitrates, nitrites and calcium propinate, are the worst). We also avoid high salicylate loading (which are naturally occuring aspirin type chemicals in many fruits). And of course, dairy, casein and whey. Soy and goat's protein are also issues for him. As is wheat, which affects our son's sleep. Less so on the these proteins now that he is five and has avoided them and is on homeopathy.

Also, high fructose corn syrup is eliminated from our home. This is especially hard initially, but wow! what a difference in the peace in our home.

I need to go do dinner. I just wanted to hold a big X up in front of the medical establishment door, lol and suggest some alternative paths. I have heard that chiro or accupuncture helps with Bell's Palsy too.

Fondly, Pat


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## Magella

Bearsmama, I got your sarcasm.







I agree with you. Hope you made something wonderful with the buttercream!

Pat, thank you. Here's what I'm looking at right now: chiropractic, flower essences (there's actually a practitioner nearby that does flower essences and focuses specifically on troubled children), the feingold diet (we have been only partially good at following this in the past, eliminating dairy (and other foods, possibly, still looking at elimination diets-again, we've done it before but probably not as strictly or for as long as we should have, and we didn't keep as careful track of it all as we could have), eliminating corn syrup and other additives not specifically addressed with the feingold diet. I am awaiting the arrival of the book "Tics and Tourettes" by the person from the latitudes website-sounds promising. For behavioral/tantrum issues we are planning to follow the plan in The Explosive Child (which, btw, is really about teaching problem-solving and flexibility through finding doable, reasonable and mutually satisfactory solutions to reduce conflict...







). There is a homeopath in not-completely-unreasonable range who also does some other alternative treatments, and is also a medical doctor (though very non-western in practice).

So, long story short, at this point I am looking into new pediatricians-specifically one we used to see but who left our current practice-and looking into western medicine as the least urgent issue. But frankly, one that I think is worth consulting-maybe because we are just so exhausted. I have a cautious relationship with mainstream doctors. Dh is also much more comfortable pursuing alternative/holistic routes. Dd's "issues" are now a big stress on our family, but they are also I think not so super urgent that we can't take the time to pursue more natural solutions for awhile before rushing headlong into western medicine.

Didn't realize how crunchy I'd become till this all came up, and how much faith I have in the human body I have and how much I believe all the artificial crap in our environment affects us, and how little trust and faith I have in western, mainstream doctors.


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## Bearsmama

I have some time now, the kids are asleep.

Loon, first I want to say that I fear that I was not being as understanding or compassionate about those daddies that HAVE to be away from their kids. Sorry if I seemed flip in my replies.









And scuba-You're reminding me of a few things. Sledg-My friend who's son I was referring to earlier in my posts has found a LOT of great information through the website scuba mentions: latitudes.org. In fact, the more I read about your DD and scuba's son the more I realize that my dear friend's son's issues are very, very similar. My friend has met with the a wonderful psychologist whose associated with that website (female, I forget her name), and they have a f/u appointment with her in a few weeks. My friend feels the same way about getting involved with the medical world to help her son. And Latitudes has given her hope that there are other alternatives.

And to scuba and sledg, again many hugs to both of you.


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## loon13

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Loon, first I want to say that I fear that I was not being as understanding or compassionate about those daddies that HAVE to be away from their kids. Sorry if I seemed flip in my replies.









No apologies needed.







We tend to view the world through the lens of our own experiences. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think you were being flip.

I totally got the sarcasm, too, because I've felt it many times. I know Dh has guilt, it just doesn't seem as consuming as mine. Like your dh, he's better at changing patterns.
So I wanna know, how can I be more relaxed about it like he is? Can I have daddy guilt instead of mommy guilt?









When I'm worrying about dd, Dh will be the one to more quickly point out the positive and say "look, she's happy, she's doing great."
And I tend to too quickly dismiss that and think "Yes, but I can do BETTER." I focus too much on what I'm not doing. I suppose I could be more positive: start with what am I doing right and do more of it and then expand on it. I'm soooo hard on myself. Hard to change the pattern.
And I think many mothers do that to themselves.

Happy Holidays, mamas!


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## MsMoMpls

I was going to spend hours and hours researching GD threads here but decided I would start with my most respected experts... thats you mommies.

I want a short introduction to GD or no time outs or something like that to share with the group that I am speaking to next week. I mainly want to challenge them to consider that taking advice from "experts" is a bit dangerous, as they just keep changing their minds. Time outs were all the rage 10 years ago and now are passe... honestly I don't think psychologists know a darn thing about parenting... they certainly don't learn much about it in school and what they do learn is likely very old.

So- any ideas or suggestion?


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## WuWei

Check out "The Natural Child Project" by Jan Hunt. She has articles by many of the most respectful parenting advocates. Here is one by Marshall Rosenburg of CNVC. http://www.naturalchild.com/marshall_rosenberg/rcc.html

Pat


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## Magella

Maureen, the only bit of organized thought I can contribute is this: I have read literally dozens of parenting books filled with advice about what causes behavior and how to respond to behavior and how to eliminate behavior and nothing, nothing was helpful until very recently-after I took a lengthy break from reading parenting books. Why? Because when I was doing all that reading I was neglecting something very important: I wasn't listening to my children, and I wasn't listening to myself. And I didn't really start getting anywhere until I asked myself "when was the last time I did anything for no reason at all? Never. When was the last time I did something because I am evil and enjoy causing others pain? Never. So why do I do things?" And once I looked at my own reasons, I discovered that knowing my reasons led to the most helpful solution. And I knew then that it was the same with my children. My children do things for a reason, and I can't address the behavior properly without listening to my child and paying close attention so that I understand the reason (or likely reason, sometimes it's not easy to get to the bottom of something). And kids have feelings that need to be addressed, and for that there is no formula. There is only listening and responding, finding the ways of communicating that work for me and my child. When I listened, I realized that things like time-out were not only not helping at all (b/c they weren't addressing the reason for the behavior), but they were also getting in the way of communication with my children-focusing too much on some magic way of eliminating behaviors without addressing the whole child (and the parent, too-it takes two to tango), and this was hurting my child (and me, and our relationship). The only people who knew enough about any given situation to find a helpful solution were me and my child (or whomever is involved).

Okay, that's vague and probably not very helpful to you. That "Natural Child Project" website has some great articles.

The books that have lately actually been helpful are those which help me learn better communication skills which in turn lead to better connection with my child, as well as those which have spurred me to learn to be more aware of my own inner landscape and how it affects my relationship with others and with life/the world in general. Also, that sleep book by Mary Kurcinka is very interesting-yet another possible reason for certain as-yet-unexplained behaviors.

ETA that the reason it took me dozens of books to figure this out is not that I'm particularly dense or that the books were all bad (many of them were quite good), but that I was clinging (without really being aware of it) to some assumptions about children and parenting that prevented me from reaching this understanding. And you know, as chaotic as I probably sound here when I post about my dd our lives and my mothering behavior and my relationships with my children have improved dramatically since reaching this understanding. And it's not the end of growing, I'm still learning and I'm sure my understanding will continue to change with time.


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## MsMoMpls

Hello dear mommas...

I have been reading lots of parenting advice and realize just how we all got so messed up. The Natural Parenting Project seems great but really if you read the articles they are all full of mother guilt. There is one about the importance of mothers and then goes right into psychopaths... clearly if you don't do a good job your kid turns out to be a psychopath and if we had more good mothers, we would have fewer psychopaths.... I don't really disagree with this but why is this how we lead when we talk about mothers? The article about why time outs don't work, which I have used and is closest to my own parenting philosophy blew me away when I re-read it. It says over and over again that if you just attend to your child's needs and feelings, you shouldn't need "discipline". As we all know- attending to your child's needs and feelings is very important. No arguement there. But really- how are we supposed to figure out just what our kids needs and feelings are?

This past week I had PMs which hasn't seemed to go away as it should have. I think that I am touched out and emotionally over-extended. I am just a fuss. So... what do I need? I haven't a clue. I have the power to change just about anything in my life. I have the resources to get myself anything that would make me feel better. And I am still a fuss. If I were a 4 year old- I think I would be a real handful right now. Nothing makes me feel better. My husband has given up trying to offer suggestions. I'm sure it isn't anything serious and am sure it will pass. One lovely mom friend suggested I might be peri-menopausal... boy does that improve me mood. I refuse to consider that I could be menopausal and nursing at the same time!

It really isn't about me. It is about how our kids must feel internally. How are we supposed to parent kids whose moods, whose needs are almost impossible to figure out? Sure when they are infants we learn to feed them, hold them, change thier pants... but sometimes they just scream and there is nothing you can do. When the same feeling shows up at 4, we see naughty behavior and feel the need to "DO" something. We have to teach them that certain behaviors are not acceptable.

Ok- so I printed out over 100 pages of this thread. I am certain that whatever is here is what is missing out there. I have to figure out how to give a 90 minute speech to 30 moms of mentally ill kids that will somehow offer them a new perspective on their parenting. I want them to see that loving them is their first and primary responsibility and that loving them is sometimes tough. I want them to throw out "psychology" and look at spirituality and healing. I want them to know that they are doing miracle work. I want them to be able to stand up to the school and mental health professionals and the other parents in the neighborhood and say "I am doing an amazing job loving this human being" even if their child looks like a spoiled brat or a budding psychopath. Think I can do that in 90 minutes? Should I have slides and handouts? I really wish Nate would do this with me. If he could get up in front of these moms and tell them that he is a wonderful healthy human being who was crazy as hell 10 years ago maybe it would help. But I guess this is my job.

Thanks to all of you for your support. You will be with me this weekend as I write this and certainly when I present. And then maybe my mood will improve. I guess I just feel really sad that being a mom is such a twisted calling.


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## WuWei

Maureen, I hear what you are saying about the challenges of identifying our own needs and feelings. Personally, I have come to believe that this is a culturally induced handicap, not an inherent one. I believe that we are systematically *taught*, as a society to ignore, disregard, dismiss, suppress and escape our needs and feelings. We don't even have a interpersonal lexicon for expressing our frustrations beyond the global 'anger' of offense and defensive. I know I certainly was punished for expressing my needs and feelings as a child. "Back talk" is a common dismissal of a child's experience and emotions.

I also no longer buy into the fault/blame matrix that our culture imposes on children as soon as they do start talking back. I don't filter our son's needs and feelings through this authoritarian and conditional paradigm. I believe this is the key to him continuing to develop an awareness and *regard* for his own needs and feelings. By honoring both my needs and feelings, I am learning that they are legitimate. I see that at almost 5, our son is much MORE adept at self-awareness and self-expression of his needs and feelings than I, at almost 44. So, I don't equate my inability, or underdeveloped ability of self-awareness as a predictor of his own (un)awareness of his feelings and needs. I perceive that he is internalizing his own self-awareness with my (mostly consistent) support and (budding) self-modelling.

Neither do I apply the fault/blame matrix to myself in my role as his mother, as I model self-awareness and self-care. I am sometimes more, and sometimes much less effective than he, or I, need. However, I don't blame myself (nor my parents) when I am not a perfect role model of self-awareness, self-control and self-expression. I have moved away from the deficit focus of *lack*, toward *abilities*. I understand my limitations and abilities due to my childhood models. It just is what it is. I honestly have come to believe that there is no utility of blame or regret for the past. The book "Peace Is Every Step" by Thich Nhat Hanh really helped me to recognize and understand the effects of my upbringing on my present. But, mostly it helped to liberate me from my past also. So, I don't believe that our son will be imprisoned by his upbringing any more than I am. Mindfulness of the present moment has been the key to releasing the past blame, and future what if's. Our culture doesn't model this *living in the present moment*. We are conditioned to a fear-based paradigm. Fear of regrets and fear of blame.

Instead, embracing both myself as imperfect, and our son as imperfect, has empowered us to accept ourselves without blame. And as I have learned to do this for him, I am learning to do it for myself. How fortunate is he that he has this unconditional acceptance in the present? I am learning to give it to myself too.

Anne Ohman has an article called "I AM WHAT I AM". I believe it expresses the "lesson" that you want to impart: http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/I_Am_What_I_Am.htm

I see Motherhood as a gift of growing self-awareness. My own. I don't see it as a calling, rather an interdependent and synergistic relationship where we both are nurtured toward our best selves. There is an old German saying "our children teach us what we most need to learn".

Best wishes, Pat


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
The Natural Parenting Project seems great but really if you read the articles they are all full of mother guilt.

Agreed. There's information of value (to me) there, but you have to wade past the guilt first. Which I guess makes it less helpful than it really could be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
The article about why time outs don't work, which I have used and is closest to my own parenting philosophy blew me away when I re-read it. It says over and over again that if you just attend to your child's needs and feelings, you shouldn't need "discipline".

In theory, this is great-it makes sense. But there are times, as you said, when it's just not that easy. And anyway, regardless of how good one is at attending to the needs and feelings of one's children, they will do things that are inappropriate and one will still need to respond to those things in a helpful and effective way-and isn't that still "discipline" of some sort? I mean, discipline is not limited to consequences or rewards but is includes all the teaching and role-modeling and communication-right? Though maybe they don't mean to imply that it will be easy, but just that consequences and rewards aren't necessary b/c addressing the reasons for the behavior is enough. I'll have to re-read that, it's been awhile. I find that most books and articles tend to make it sound like if you just do it right, parenting will be easy-and that is so untrue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
This past week I had PMs which hasn't seemed to go away as it should have. I think that I am touched out and emotionally over-extended. I am just a fuss. So... what do I need? I haven't a clue. I have the power to change just about anything in my life. I have the resources to get myself anything that would make me feel better. And I am still a fuss.

BTDT.









You know, I just remembered where some of the "missing links" wrt parenting came from for me. These won't help you get ready this weekend, but you might enjoy them in the future. One book you might enjoy is _There's Nothing Wrong With You_ by Cheri Huber, which is basically about how the way we were raised instills in us the sense that there is something wrong with us-that this is where a lot of guilt comes from, and we can learn to let go of it. The other is _Time Out for Parents: A Guide to Compassionate Parenting_ by Cheri Huber. The idea in this book is basically that in times of conflict it's helpful to reflect on (and get in touch with) what's going on inside of us parents-to see the guilt, the assumptions, our physical feelings, our emotions, etc. and to see how those affect how we're responding to our kids. Not in the spirit of inducing guilt, but in the spirit of loving and caring for yourself 1) because you are a valuable human being who needs to be cared for and 2) because this in turn frees you care for your kids compassionately and effectively. I also love _Non Violent Communication_ by Marshall Rosenberg (not a guilt-inducing book): all people have needs, people need to feel heard before they can listen, that misbehavior is an expression of need, that communication is not necessarily easy but we can learn to communicate better with our kids and with everyone else. There's a website, www.cnvc.org (Center for Non Violent Communication) with a couple of articles about parenting specifically.

I can also tell you that some of the assumptions I clung to, of which I was only dimly aware, were: that children (all people, really) will automatically choose the more undesireable/inappropriate/bad behaviors unless we somehow make them choose otherwise via consequences/intimidation/rewards/etc.; that the role of parent is to control childrens' behavior; that parents have done something wrong if their child misbehaves; that giving a child (or adult) a compassionate, loving response after an undesireable behavior will cause them to engage in that behavior more (as opposed to being exactly the balm that is needed to help them learn). These are really terribly guilt inducing assumptions, and they are so deeply ingrained in our culture. We are, as a culture, so hung up on fixing people and fixing situations, fixing ourselves...fixing as a means to happiness. It's normal in our culture to even try to fix tiny babies, to make them sleep through the night at young ages for example, because we think that's how it should be and how it is must be changed. We desire control, too, because we feel fear about not being in control and we cannot often tolerate fear. We, as a culture, must always find someone to blame when things go "wrong", it's rampant. To just accept life as it is, people as they are, is often seen as weakness-as just lying down and taking it like just so much doormat. We so often, as a culture, aren't aware that the key to happiness lies within-and only within. We focus, as a culture, on behaviors rather than on whole people, feelings and all. And sure, there has been a lot more I've had to confront and heal and accept within myself in order to grow as a parent.

I guess I've found that finding the path to being the parent I want to be has had a lot more to do with my own inner growth than with anything else. Learning new ways of interacting with my kids, without the goal being to get my kids to do what I want but instead to connect with and understand and communicate with them, is equally important. Awareness of the model my own behaviors is for my kids is important. Hugely important.

I hope you find what you need for your presentation, and that it liberates someone from their guilt for at least a little while.


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## Magella

Hi all. I want to think out loud a little, and share these interesting things.

First, the most amazing thing has happened twice now. My challenging kiddo, who always freaks and gets defensive and nasty when she even accidentally does something that results in someone being hurt or upset, has now twice spontaneously and sincerely said "I'm sorry".....and demonstrated feeling badly about it by crying. No screaming, no nastiness....just her sweet self showing her remorse/empathy, asking for a hug, crying a bit then moving on. It's amazing.

Second, we moved all the kids to their own beds and we are all so much more pleasant to be around. We are getting not just more sleep, but better sleep. I was dragging dd1 and dd2 out of bed in the mornings, but these last few days they've actually not only woken on their own at a good-for-our-schedule time but they've gotten out of bed with smiles.

Third, I realized in going over all my memories and notes and whatnot that the poop hits the fan with dd1 every February-March. Since 2003. So what is it? March is her half-birthday-in some circles considered a difficult time developmentally. February-March is when winter is coming to an end, and we've all been cooped up a lot and are drained and ready for spring (especially me). February-March is when we tend to get sick. March is when we tend to experience the first of seasonal allergies. March is the anniversary of moving to this home, which was tough on dd but may have nothing to do with anything. It's just weird that it gets so bad every February-March.

Fourth, we have been off of dairy, food dyes and certain preservatives for a week. For a week the kids have been in their own beds, in bed earlier, and getting more and better sleep. ETA that also for a week we've all been getting excercise outdoors first thing in the morning, and spending more time outside in the afternoon. For a week I've been feeling less tired b/c I sleep better with them all in their own beds, and I have more energy to parent these kids calmly and well. And for these last several days dd1 has not been screaming at people, she has not been hitting, she has been sad a lot but not for as long and inconsolably, and she has been talking about feelings like she never has before. Her only difficult periods (which have been so much less difficult than usual) have come when she has been overly hungry, on a couple of mornings when we didn't get breakfast in her fast enough. It is so clear this week how much hunger and being tired affect her, as these are the times when she has difficulty and she is actually saying that she's tired or she's hungry (not just freaking out). She has been helpful and cooperative much more than usual. She has been having fewer tics. Maybe it's all coincidence and this is some kind of freaky honeymoon phase. I don't care. I'll take it.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen







Just read through your post, and I just want to offer support and love. I have lots more to say (as always, right?), but I want to thoroughly read the follow-up posts/replies from some wise mamas.

More later...


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## Bearsmama

Okay everyone, I just got done reading sledg's and scuba's responses to Maureen and I am BLOWN away. These words couldn't come at a better time for me, too. Thank you, thank you. More to say tomorrow...


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## emblmrgrl

Just popping in for a second to say hi ... we're in a good spot for the time being so I'm trying to enjoy it!









I'm still reading along though. And as always, there's some good stuff here, so I'm taking it all in. I'm working on me right now, I guess, too ... trying to learn to let things go quickly. Whatever it is, it's working at the moment.


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## Magella

Just wanted to update: I've spoken with the ped. and the ped. has recommended a visit to a neurologist. So the next step is to call the neuro. and make an appt. I feel like "finally, some confirmation that something is possibly really going on with dd."

ETA: we see the neuro in a few weeks, at the end of June.


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## MsMoMpls

Ok- I had a great time at the conference and wanted to share all this wonderful information with you all. Not sure I can give you two days worth of training in one posting but maybe just the highlights.

My presentation went well. I think the moms felt really supported and encouraged. The analogy was that I really opened a can of worms. So- we kept laughting about me walking around opening cans of worms, and not knowing what to do with them. I always have more questions than answers. The fact that a psychologist could have so much trouble getting help for her kids is sad but at least it helps them to see that their just aren't a lot of answers to be found out there. We really don't know a lot about helping kids who have serious neurological struggles.

On the other hand, there was some really great stuff on how to impact kids from a neurological perspective. Charlie Applestein spoke- he wrote "No Such Thing as a Bad Kid" and works with really tough kids. He uses a lot of "raps"- patterned saying that get into a kids psyche. Things like- Rude is Crude- Dude, Let it go- Joe, Hocus, pocus, focus, Don't poke- its no joke.

These by being repetitious and rhymic work fast on the brain. I have to give it some thought but I think we need to write some for mom frustration and anger as well.

Lots of the presentations were on states of activation- that kids are missing the abilitity to their feelings and sensations and our jobs is to help them develop these. The problem is that kids with huge sensory or emotional dysregulation issues need us as their teachers to be able to stay in a low state of activation (calm and thinking) when they go crazy. I think that we just need to see our kids as needing super moms- they just can't manage the regular stuff like losing your patience or having a rough day. They need us at our best way more than most kids. It is hugely challenging but it isn't that we have failed and made them this way- it is that their needs are higher than most and need more from us.

One psychiatist talked about how hard it is to parent a child whose needs are so intense that it always appears that they must be being neglected. No matter how much you give the child, it just isn't enough. They are starving for attention. I could certainly relate to that.

A lot of what we are doing with our kids, using humor and distraction, letting go of many power struggles were all very supported by the neurological research. Lots of power struggles actually develop the brain to be withdrawing and critical. Huma and distraction is a way of switching their brain to a different level of activation so that they can make choices. Getting out of their fear center and into their thinking brain actually does change brain development. I think much of what our instincts are telling us is based on our own sense of how to calm and heal.

One presenter talked about how the church has always used ritual, candles, music, incense and meditation for healing and those are the things we are coming to late in therapy. Those things actually get past the thinking brain to the more primal, instinctive part of the brain where our fears and anger lie.

One techique that would be really powerful to try with your kids is narrative therapy. For you highly verbal, English majors who want to over talk everything... you know who you (we) are... this is a way of talking that gets to the subconcious. IT is just creating stories about your child, but hiding your child in an animal. So one mom wrote a story about her son as a dragon who breathed fire when he was mad but got really small when he was scared. You actually start the story with some idea of the lesson you want to create. This is just what the parables in the bible are, right? But the most powerful stories are one you co-create with your kids. You help them write their own stories, create their own solutions. There was a mom sharing her stories whose 6 year old was adopted at 2 after being abused and neglected and has fetal alcohol effects. They created a family of racoons who had four girls and then got pregnant and had a boy and the momma drank and did drugs while she was pregnant. She only took the story so far, as he got uncomfortable, they left it alone but he kept coming back to it. Finally he said to her- this is my story isn't it? Did my mom do drugs when she was pregnant? Why would she do that? Then they got to have a discussion about this and continue to write the story of how his life is turning out. It puts the struggles one step out from "the truth" and because storytelling is so powerful, it impacts on a very different level than talking about the problem does. Kids are great at this stuff.

The other thing that they are using a lot with kids is sensory work. The same little boy has a calming box that he takes to school that has things that he knows helps him calm down. For him it is sensory stuff, like textiles and dot-to-dots and silly putty. If his teacher sees him getting stressed, she asks him if he want to get his calm box and he spends about 10 minutes on the quiet mat calming himself. He hasn't needed it much lately at school so he told him mom he was missing it and could he have one at home.

I'm sure there are more wonderful things I could share. Mostly I wanted to let you all know that my batteries are recharged and I do believe advances are being made on how to help kids brains change.

This thread has been quiet. I always hope that means everyone is doing very well this week.

I have to say I printed and read almost 100 pages of this thread and if you have some time, I would really suggest you go back and see where things were oh so long ago. There is some amazingly powerful stuff here.

I have used sledg's "parent as a rock" analogy a few times and shared it with the group at the conference.... when I publish it, I will need your real name to give you credit. I felt really bad quoting you without giving you credit. I am serious about publishing this. There is nothing as real and honest and fresh out there as this thread.

More later- Maureen


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Lots of the presentations were on states of activation- that kids are missing the abilitity to their feelings and sensations and our jobs is to help them develop these. The problem is that kids with huge sensory or emotional dysregulation issues need us as their teachers to be able to stay in a low state of activation (calm and thinking) when they go crazy. I think that we just need to see our kids as needing super moms- they just can't manage the regular stuff like losing your patience or having a rough day. They need us at our best way more than most kids. It is hugely challenging but it isn't that we have failed and made them this way- it is that their needs are higher than most and need more from us.

This reminds me of one author who said that as parents of children with these difficulties, we have to act as our child's "surrogate frontal lobe."

I went to my first ever training workshop on Non Violent Communication. I learned a lot. This is a great communication tool for me to practice using, because it requires paying attention-to really being present and being honest and attending to what's going on within the people with whom I'm interacting (my kids, mostly). The focus is on "quality of connection among people that supports getting needs met through natural giving."

So using my new understanding of this method of communication, I want to share my feelings with you today.

Maureen, when I read your last post I felt grateful because all of what you shared met my need for learning. I also felt appreciative because your willingness to share and the gift of your time met my needs for connection and support. I felt happy as well, because I had been hoping that your presentation went well and wished for you to be happy. I felt admiration because I value the work that you do, and hope that someday I have the opportunity to contribute to the well-being of others as you do. I felt pleased when I read that you used my rock analogy, because my need to contribute was met.

To all the wonderful people who have participated in this thread: I feel grateful and peaceful each time I read your words and participate in this thread with you, because doing so meets my needs for connection, support, contribution, learning, growth, and confirmation that indeed mothering is hard work (and I am not alone in struggling). Despite the fact that I have not met a single one of you, I am so very grateful to have had the opportunity to share these experiences and feelings with you.

I hope that you all are well, and enjoying your days.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
and hope that someday I have the opportunity to contribute to the well-being of others as you do.

Your words and wisdom do contribute everyday. Already. Every day. Here and many other places on MDC.

Thank you.

Pat


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## TEAK's Mom

This is dh's busiest time of year, so I don't get very much time to post or even read, but I have to just stop in and mention how much of a gift this thread has been to me. You are all such wise mamas. In real life, I don't know any other mamas who approach parenting with both compassion and intellectual rigor. You are amazing.

We are actually doing quite well (aside from the fact that, if this rain doesn't slow soon, we may need an ark). Dh is gone for pretty much all of the girls' waking hours, but I am somehow in my groove. TEAK is in a good spot most of the time and is learning more about how to help herself break out of bad cycles. I think my biggest accomplishment is that I have stopped yearning for her to act like a typical child. I'm kind of ashamed that it has taken nearly four years to reach that point.

Now, I just have to wait for dh to slow down a little so that we can begin the dreaded education talks. I very much want to homeschool and he wants to send them to public school. I'm actually composing a manifesto. Anyone have any pointers?


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
Now, I just have to wait for dh to slow down a little so that we can begin the dreaded education talks. I very much want to homeschool and he wants to send them to public school. I'm actually composing a manifesto. Anyone have any pointers?

I don't know your child's age, I assume 4+. Most find that homeschooling "for the first few years" is approachable and indefinite.







I highly recommend reading any John Holt. I especially was inspired by "Learning All The Time". It is an easy read. And probably available at the library. If he is younger, I'd suggest waiting until the age of registration to make a final decision: usually around 7. Join a local homeschooling group to know all the ins and outs so that the laws and options are all old hat.

Here is a powerful article to share from John Taylor Gatto. He is a bit radical about schools though. He is a teacher. http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html?seenIEPage=1

Another thought provoking book is Alfie Kohn's "Punished By Rewards". It makes you think and turns the cultural of punishment and rewards upside-down.

HTH, Pat


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Reading, reading, reading. Man, I only can DITTO the words here by sledg, TEAKS, and scuba about this thread. Amazingly powerful stuff. Amazingly honest. And it's encompassed so much more then just the "challenging child" stuff. Did I just say, 'just' the challenging stuff? HA!

Okay, ladies, this is a bit OT, I guess. But I'm having a really difficult time with Bears over the past week or two. He's had some of his "old" behaviors crop up again, and it's pushed every button of mine possible. And therein lies the question (is that even gramamtically correct). Maureen-this one might be for you. I feel that old demons of mine are rearing their ugly heads. I don't even specifically remember tons of horribly angry moments from my childhood, but there were enough, and I do know that my family life was a bit dysfunctional. I feel that there are these seeds of anger in me and I have no idea where they come from. Fear, maybe. Sadness, maybe. If feel that I fall back easily on this anger thing and it's a crutch and I hate it. And I just keep spinning my wheels. Then, the flip side is that it wouldn't be normal if I didn't get angry when Bears goes to kick his little brother in the head with a hard-soled shoe, I get infuriated. I don't know how to handle anger. Really. That's it. There's no middle ground with me. I can ignore something. OR I can FREAK.

Sorry for monopolizing this thread again with my personal BS. But I feel that I can really bare it all here. And I need some help and support. I really want to heal myself and stop any cycle of ANY BS that was passed on to me.And I know I'm not my mother. I know it. But there are parts of me that just aren't healed yet, and I feel that I keep some of these wounds open with my own kids.

Anyone else struggle with this? Scuba, I love your siggie. And I'm trying to find inspiration in it right now.

Thanks ladies. So much good stuff here tonight for me and all of us. Thank you, thank you.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I feel that old demons of mine are rearing their ugly heads. I don't even specifically remember tons of horribly angry moments from my childhood, but there were enough, and I do know that my family life was a bit dysfunctional. I feel that there are these seeds of anger in me and I have no idea where they come from. Fear, maybe. Sadness, maybe. If feel that I fall back easily on this anger thing and it's a crutch and I hate it. And I just keep spinning my wheels. Then, the flip side is that it wouldn't be normal if I didn't get angry when Bears goes to kick his little brother in the head with a hard-soled shoe, I get infuriated. I don't know how to handle anger. Really. That's it. There's no middle ground with me. I can ignore something. OR I can FREAK.

Not Maureen, but I can share with you what has helped me. I have had that sense of old demons, old pain, coming up. I have learned that while my past my offer some explanation as to how I came to be acting or feeling in this moment, what is most helpful is to stop (even for a few moments) and ask myself what it is that I am feeling and needing in this moment. Anger and yelling are a habit, a pattern, and thus can be broken. What is necessary (for me) to break this pattern is not thoughts about the past, but awareness of what is happening right now. When I'm aware of what I'm feeling and needing and thinking right now, then I have the freedom and opportunity to change. Really change, not just shame myself into doing it differently this time.

So when my kid throws something at my other kid, and I feel like I'm going to just explode with fury, I have to ask what I'm feeling and where that arises from. I felt angry when I saw kid one throw the shoe at kid two. Why? Because kids shouldn't hit. Really? Is that really it? No. I felt angry when I saw it because I have internalized the assumption not only that kids shouldn't hit but that if I'm a good mother my kids won't hit (or do anything else they shouldn't do)-so what I really need is confirmation that I'm a good mother and that need is not met when I see that kid one is throwing a shoe at kid two. I also feel some fear, because I need to know my family is safe-and that need is not met when I see that someone's head is being hit by a shoe. (Maybe there's more, maybe I'm remembering something from long ago and how I felt then-and I'm feeling the pain of the needs that went unmet.) So when I recognize all that in myself, I can ask "how can I ensure these needs of mine are met now?" And knowing what my own needs and feelings are when I see shoe throwing, I can separate that from what my children are feeling and needing. In taking that moment to give empathy to myself (the "I'm feeling...because I need..."), I also free myself to give empathy to my kids ("are you feeling....because...?"). Then we can find ways of really addressing the situation in ways that are helpful, and that will (hopefully) meet all our needs. And I have to find ways of ensuring my needs are met without depending on my kids to meet them, yk? I can't stand hitting, because I feel all these things and my needs for peace and ease and safety and confimation are not met-but in all likelihood they can be met in other ways, or some can wait awhile while (so my need for ease and peace may have to wait, but maybe my need for safety is urgent now-or all of my needs wait because my children's needs take priority-which, incidentally, does meet my need to contribute to the well-being of my children).

And sometimes, again, it's all about accepting that I can't control others and that no matter how wonderful a mom I am there will still be shoe-throwing. And that doesn't mean any of us are bad, flawed, doing a bad job, going to grow up to be bad people, or any of the other horrible things I might imagine. So it's okay to just respond with compassion-sometimes even fierce compassion. Compassion and talking about feelings and needs doesn't always sound calm or syrupy sweet or nice. It sounds real, and it can be very raw. And that's okay.

I am losing my train of thought so I'll stop there.


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## Bearsmama

sledg-You words are right on. And btw, you're my therapist, too, not just Maureen!









I don't have a ton of time, but I really feel that figuring myself out, tending to myself, trying to come to my parenting as more of a clean slate (YKWIM?) then someone with "secret swiss cheese insides" (this is a quote from Anne Lamott that I love). I really feel that it is my calling, so-to-speak. Not just figuring myself out for my own sake, but I know I can do so much, and, of course, be a much happier mommy by tending to my own crap, and letting it goooooooooo....

Everything you wrote, I instinctually know is true. Everything. It all resonates with me. And before I had kids, I could have almost written your words. I felt very keyed in to the fact that taking care of my own feelings and being careful with my children's was what it was all about for me. Then, of course, I had my first, and the experience of having this REAL, high-needs babe, who turned into a REAL (HA!) high-needs 4 year old, blew me outta the water.

More later, gtg. Sledg, I have so much gratitude in my heart for your words and the honesty here. Thank you.


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## Magella

It is much harder to DO it than it is to know it or say it.

It's so simple, yet it's not easy.


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## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
It is much harder to DO it than it is to know it or say it.
It's so simple, yet it's not easy.

Man, ain't that the truth.

Geeesh, I know sledg has discussed this before, and this is one of my huge life lessons, but staying in the moment, being attentive to my breathing, really works to combat any crud that comes up. Even paying attention to the crud is important. Living in the moment is so simple, and yet, not easy. Ahhhhh, life.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey dear mommas.... sledg-I think you have a great handle on handling anger. There is a treatment program for domestic abuse that has been really powerful and it is all about teaching compassion. For self and others.

I am on a brain kick right now so here is another idea about old demons. The amygdala (sp?) is the primal, emotional, survival part of the brain. We are starting to see that it most closely relates to what Freud named the "subconcious". It is important to understand that the subconcious is a construct, an idea, not a truth. It didn't exist the way we think about it until Freud.

So now we have found a place in the brain that seems to lock in those primal, preverbal and traumatic memories. I think of them like a knot in your muscles that is locked into spasms. Because of how the brain operates, things stored in our primative memories are hard to get to through logic and talk. They don't always change just because we "know" better. They happen so fast and are so instinctual that thinking doesn't work. Kind of like thinking that your not going to flinch or blink when someone swings at you. If you wanted not to blink it would take a lot of work and concentration and your body really really wants to blink.

So what does get through to the amygdala? Interestingly all the things that religion has traditionally used in healing rituals. Music, incence, prayer or meditation, candles... those are the routes of the "subconcious". And it really is about healing the hurt, releasing the negative energies and memories. It isn't very logical or right or wrong... it is just about healing. About wrapping your hurt in love and letting it go. We all as mothers have to heal our inner child. We have to parent her the way we deserved to be parented, if we are going to be able to give to our children as they deserve. And it doesn't mean we blame anyone. Hurts happen in everyone's lives. And something about human nature is that some of those hurts get trapped.

I have been working with this Landmark program and it is really interesting that they have everyone kind of figure out when in their lives they decided that they were "wrong or bad". Just about everyone tells some story from the time they are about 3-4 when their mother or father really let them down. Now... this happens in crazy abusive families and in really strong healthy families. It just seems to happen.

My personal story that I became aware of was that I left my 2 month old sister in her stroller at a friends doorstep and went inside to play. Now that part I understand differently now as an adult than I did then was that my mother should never have let a not quite 4 year old take her baby sister for a walk around the neighborhood. I also suspect that my overly exhausted mother may have fallen asleep and "lost" us for a while. Susan was out in the stroller for about 20 minutes- I think. I have no idea how distorted my memory of this is.

When my mother found me, she yelled at me and told me she was going to spank me. She never did but that moment somehow locked in my psyche and I think that I have this whole BS thing about never letting anyone down ever again because I was so bad.

See how destructive that can be? I was 3. It was just a mistake and my mother didn't do anything that wrong or bad. It just somehow was bad timing for my developement. Now that I know this about me I watch for when I am working hard not to be "wrong and bad" because sometimes, often- that is about a confused 3 year old, not about me. I am working, every day on letting go of that message that ruled my life for years. Now I actually get to be wrong or make mistakes or just be. At least for more minutes in the day.

Way long answer.... thanks everyone for all the support.


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## Magella

Maureen, thank you. That was powerful. I have to digest that for awhile.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-I have seen the same therapist on and off since I was 17. I have read every book there is about self-improvement, becoming your own parent, then-as a parent-I have read many, many books about parenting, etc. I have a few IRL friends who I can really talk to about the stuggles of dealing with the past and moving forward as a parent. I have an involved and Evolved husband who knows my struggles. But none of this-NONE of it-has has been as powerful, as shame-free, as crystal clear as your words here this morning. I mean it. Man. I really think your post could quite possibly change my life. You may think I'm being overly dramatic, but I am not.

Maureen-You are a gift to this board and to me. If your work and words here are as powerful to your IRL clients, then you are doing exactly what you should be doing in this life.

I am still digesting as sledg says. I'm sure I'll have more to say later.

This may spur me to get printer ink today at Staples! Darn thing's been outta ink for quite some time, but this could change things!


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## emblmrgrl

Hello all. I've been reading along as usual but have had so many thoughts lately about my own situation, I just haven't had anything much to offer.

First thing, Maureen, WOW. That post was deep. And, I really needed that, too.

As I'm sure I've said before, all my kids play sports and this past Monday night my boys had a baseball game. My darling little Cole plays catcher mainly because it's the only position that can hold his attention. Even that is too slow but he does seem to enjoy it so I suffer thru. Anyway, he was being his normal self and not paying as close attention as he probably should've been when suddenly, his coach comes from the outfield, walks by the dugout and hands his glove to his wife and says (hello? I'm within earshot of this) "Here. I'm going down here to ride him for a bit." It was said in a disgusted tone or such that my son needed to straighten up. I sat for a couple minutes and in the most bizarre way was a little relieved that someone was trying to show him what was required of his position on the field. And then, I burst into tears. Right there, in the stands at a tee ball game. I had to go to the car and cry.

I am so tired of something being wrong with him. I am tired of his behavior always being in question, always needing to change. I'm tired of people "riding" him as though this is a matter of him not having enough discipline. My DH came to the car after me and I told him what was wrong. He pointed out that Cole seemed fine but for me, I wonder, will it seem normal? Sure, Cole has a good time wherever he goes but he also is like needing to have a dog on a leash most of that time. You're constantly saying "Cole, do this", "Cole, do that", "Cole, stop". I mean, all the time. Is that his reality? Will he think that it's normal to have people on you like that all the time and if he does, how does that affect his choices? Gah, I sound like a lunatic, I'm sure, but I am just so worn down and becoming more and more protective of him.

I know that all this is about me. It's about the way I perceived things as a child that shaped my reactions and expectations and I'm projecting them now. I know that my issues are so closely tied into Cole's that I can't see where mine end and his begin sometimes. Like at the game. Was it him I was hurting for or me, knowing what it felt like to be scolded that way? I feel like I have no objectivity in these issues and my husband seems to let things slide that I feel have merit. He saw the game issue and to him, it was a kid being corrected by his coach. For me, I saw a little boy get fussed at for the one billionth time when he was doing the best he could at the moment. Goodness knows I've fussed at him enough over the years for all of us.

I must be in some sort of transitional phase. I'm doing good with the anger management, I'm enjoying the kids and moving quickly past things that come up ... more stuff to ponder wasn't on my to do list! Looks like I needed it though.

Well shoot, have to run pick the kids up from school so I must wrap this up. Thank you all for being here. This thread is such a life saver. Hugs to you all.


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## Magella

Oh, Jennifer.







You certainly do not sound like a lunatic. I want to say something really helpful, but all I can think is that it's just so heartwrenching to be worried about your kid all the time. And to be worried about how accurate your perceptions are.

After reading Maureen's awesome and truly helpful post, I found myself worrying again about what my daughter's demons will be when she is an adult. Will her demons be the ones I've given her? Is there a way to prevent her from having demons? Or do all moms give their kids complexes of some sort no matter what? Maybe that's all part of being human. Dunno. I've decided that's not something to worry about anymore today.


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## MsMoMpls

sledg- I too worry a great deal about what my children's demons will be. I don't think that it is possible to have NO demons... I really think that as we grow, we can help our children not get locked into their misunderstandings of what we say to them. It is not my mom's fault- I really get that I made it mean something- even at three. So, we help them learn to make meaning in a more productive, more positive, more powerful way. Still really working on that piece.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Sometimes, when the muse inspires me I really hesitate. It feels like way too much and hard to believe I can have it make sense to anyone else. It feels great that it was impactful.

Bearsmama- I do get that this simple idea can change your life. Now when I I am trying so very hard to prove how responsible I am or making sure that no one ever sees my "bad and wrong" side... I realise that this is my really silly 3 year old story and it is so much easier to just let some things go. This makes it so much easier to be human and make mistakes and then you get to have a really rich and powerful life.... even being brave enough to post something like that comes from letting go of the fear that I might be wrong.

Blessings to all.... I have lots of mother love right now. I think Mother's Day should have fireworks and parades and lots and lots of presents.

Maureen


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Oh, Jennifer.







You certainly do not sound like a lunatic. I want to say something really helpful, but all I can think is that it's just so heartwrenching to be worried about your kid all the time. And to be worried about how accurate your perceptions are.

After reading Maureen's awesome and truly helpful post, I found myself worrying again about what my daughter's demons will be when she is an adult. Will her demons be the ones I've given her? Is there a way to prevent her from having demons? Or do all moms give their kids complexes of some sort no matter what? Maybe that's all part of being human. Dunno. I've decided that's not something to worry about anymore today.

Thank you, sledg. It's helpful just knowing I have you all here to listen and that you get it on a level that other people in my life do not. My DH is much like you guys have described yours ... he's there, he knows it's rough, and he's supportive BUT, his journey with this is different than mine. He doesn't internalize it the way I do.

Demons ... yeah, *I* think that is part of being human. I saw a post somewhere here once about towels. The mama never had nice beach towels to take to the pool/beach/whatever with her in the summer when she was growing up, so she made sure her dd always had nice towels. Thing was, the towel issue was hers, not her dd's. Her DD couldn't care less about what her towels looked like. I am very much similar about Cole in that now, I worry he'll be used to being harped on and it will make him afraid to mess up. I was always afraid to mess up. I didn't want to draw attention to myself because that usually resulted in being bitched at or made to feel like a fool. Which of course, when something happens in public with Cole, I get to be the center of attention and I'm so NOT comfortable with that. It certainly messes up my need to feel invisible.

So like I said, I have gotten to the point where I don't know if this is my issue flaring up or if it's really something he's at risk of experiencing himself. I'm actually growing to love his perspective. It's taken me a long time to say that but now, I'm starting to resent people trying to change him.

Oh my stars, could it be? Could I have really learned to accept him?! LOL *faint*


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## Bearsmama

Jennifer-You definitely don't sound like a lunatic. In fact, I find your posts to be incredibly honest and I always look forward to reading them. It's hard to know what's us and what is them, what will be their issues and what is us projecting.

I think we all have demons to deal with. Even those that have come from mostly-functional, mostly-healthy families. Someone said to me once (a therapist friend) said that it is impossible to not pass on some of our own BS to our kids. We would all have to be these fully-realized, 100% always available people. And I don't know about all of you, but I can't be this person. I am working on being fully-realized-that is a life-long process, I think.

I have a friend who has an adult son and a young dd. She said that when her son hit adolescence she just completely freaked out. My friend had a very traumatic adolescence. Her son finally said to her one day, "I'm not you, mom. I'm not screwing up. I'm okay". My friend was fearing that her son was making the choices that she had, and in fact, he was a very straight and narrow kid. She realized in that moment that he was not HER.
Sounds so simple, and yet NOT EASY (as sledg has said).

Maureen-I've actually said to Bears after being angry and not handling it well, I'll hold him, and say, "Yes, I was angry. I didn't handle that well. And I want you to know that when mommy gets angry like that, it's not your fault". It's important for me to apologize to my kids when I F-up. And some days I've done a LOT of apologizing. And sometimes it's hard to switch that gear, and acknowledge that their big mama, larger-than-life to their little minds, is just a little girl inside. Today I actually even said to my son, "Sometimes even big mommies, need and miss their mommies".

I don't know where I'm going with this. My mother never apologized to me about anything. Never really seemed to work on her own BS. I feel that in this small way I am making strides to chase those demons away from my son. Of course, I really DO KNOW that I'm not my mother. Really. I am different in so many ways, too many to count. But it's the hard stuff that stops us in our tracks, right?

Anyway, goodnight mamas. I am full of mother love, too, Maureen. And so thankful to have found you all.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Just a random (sort of) question here: What do you consider the hallmarks in a healthy family? The things that if they are NOT there, there's trouble, or dysfunction?

TIA.


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## Magella

Just taking a brief moment to wish you all a happy Mother's Day! I have a busy weekend ahead, with my grandmother coming in from Wisconsin for a little visit. My three children are mopping the floors right now. They love it. They make a huge mess of water on the floor (yes, we have three mops) then they skate around on the floor on dry towels to finish it off. My oldest is talking about how much I like this, since I don't have to do it, and how this is great for mother's day. They are all smiles. And my floor is getting clean!!!























Man, I do love being a mom.


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## Bearsmama

Ahh, sledg. You beat me to it. I was coming on to wish all of you a HAPPY MOM'S day. You've all been such inspirations to me and my parenting.

And, man, you're right: For me, parenting being tough, and loving being a mom are not mutually exclusive feelings. Life is hard AND it's beautiful and amazing.

My best to all of you.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in tonight. How's everyone doing?

Anyone else's challenging kids having a tough time this week? Mine is. 'Nuff said!


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## kayjayjay

Hello, I've been in lurk mode for some time now, just wanted to let you all know I'm still reading and processing here.

My challenging child has been having an incredibly calm spell. Amazing, really. She is such a nice person to know. She's just five and she's in that phase where she says the funniest things. I'm just trying to soak it up right now, so I'm not posting much. I'm also trying to figure out what's up...is it her diet, the weather, the moon?

I have a part time job that keeps me too busy to post at times, but I'm still here!

Happy belated Mother's Day to you all.


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome kayjayjay! I think we have a lot of lurker mommas whose challenging children and doubts and fears keep them reading and too busy to post. And really sometimes talking about the latest bad day can just be too much. When Nate was little, my aunt used to tell me to journal about it and I really wished I had because I think it would have helped me see some of the patterns. It would have also helped when it felt like nothing was working to see that in fact, he was getting older and wiser. I know he didn't get better over night. I think it took me years to really feel like it was real.

So right now it isn't my children challenging me but my sister who wrote me a horrible email telling me everything she doesn't like about me.

We disagree enormously about parenting. And really it is just that I think parenting should be joyous and loving more than controling and "consisitant". I find her punative and harsh, with her kids and with herself and now with me. I feel so sad for her. Practicing GD has really helped me be more loving with everyone, not just my kids. I think it really is about being more self loving. I know we have all struggled with that but at least we see the connection between how we are internally and how we relate to the kids. I don't think she sees that at all.

The funny (and horribly hurtful) thing is that she finds me judgemental and harsh with her. It isn't that I say things, it is the look and the tone. I don't feel like I can do anything right with her and know that she feels the same with me. Oh- I know I am very opinionated and strong willed. Not always the easiest person to argue with.

So... I am trying to be gentle and loving and accepting and just give her room to be angry with me. Just sit with those feelings without taking responsibility for them- just like we talk about with kids. Hard to do.

Hope everyone had a wonderful Mother's Day. Kiss the kiddies. And thanks for all the support.

Maureen


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## Magella

kayjayjay, I'm glad to hear you're having a good time right now.

Maureen, I'm so sorry to hear you're having a tough time with your sister.







It's hard when family members just don't see life from anything resembling a similar perspective. Makes it hard to communicate and connect.

Bearsmama, sorry to hear Bears is having a rough time.

We're having a tough time here, too, but mostly it's because we have had the most horrible stomach bug rampaging through the family. I swear my house smells of vomit and, er, you know what else. I'm so happy it's sunny and warm enough to open the windows.

Gotta run.


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## Bearsmama

Kayjay-Welcome. You'll find tremendous support here.

Sledg-Man, you guys have been hit in recent months with the dreaded bugs. That can seriously wreak havoc on everything...I hope that fresh air gets everyone feeling better soon. If I was there I'd make you a cup of tea!
















And Maureen-Here's another








for you. I'm sorry you're getting a bit attacked over there. It's so hard to look for the common ground in the middle of something like this. I'm impressed and amazed, actually, with your outlook on your sis's issue with you. It seems to be all about letting go, huh?

Oh, and I completely agree about this whole GD thing and the AP thing in general being about self-love. That's it. Really. I know this is true for me. I am trying very hard to love myself, really, really love myself. And thru my struggles with parenting my kids, Bears in particular, I'm learning it. Really, I am. Slowly but surely.

Bears is going through a nutty phase. Yesterday we had a grand mal tantrum/flip-out the likes of which I haven't seen in months. It was in public. It was pretty outrageous. He's been very sad the past few days, too. Also, the kid who does EVERYTHING himself and very, very rarely asks for any help with ANYTHING, has been asking us to put on his shoes, his clothes, to carry him. Weird. It's like he needs the closeness the past few days. Today at breakfast, he ran this hard plane against his brother's back and left a big mark and made him cry. I said to him, "What's wrong, Bears? Are you not feeing well?. And he said, "You know what part of my hurts. My head. My head is sad".







Okay, so I've talked to him before about telling me when he's sad, but I didn't prompt this. Today before school (he's in preschool in the mornings) he said, "Mommy, I remember that if I get sad that I can look into my heart or hand and find you". This is something I've told him before, but he's remembering it. When he's like this, I really see what *looks* like depression. Sadness. It kills me to think of him struggling like this with just feeling happy. I am praying to the universe that these occasional bouts of sadness that tend to come along with crazy behavior does not last him as he grows. But I fear where we're headed. He breaks my heart.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant and talk and get it out. We're headed on vacation this Sunday. Wish us luck. Perhaps some sun and sand and beach will help us all feel better.

Thanks and love to my mamas.


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## Magella

Ooooooh, vacation! Just the medicine a tired, stressed out family needs. I cannot wait for vacation. We love vacation. The kids started daydreaming about vacation as soon as we got back from our last vacation last summer. I hope you have a wonderful time!

Wow, it sounds like Bears is really good at articulating his feelings sometimes. That's pretty cool. But so heartbreaking too, yes? I think sometimes kids just aren't happy, and that some kids feel things so intensely that when they're in these phases they feel _very_ unhappy. Life is just such that sometimes we're happy, and sometimes we're not, and sometimes we're in this deep, awful funk. But yeah, it doesn't seem right for a child to be so unhappy does it? And maybe it isn't. Dunno, just thinking out loud.

My oldest broke my heart a couple of weeks ago. She'd been doing so well, so happy, so easy to get along with, gentle with her siblings. And then she started up again-the yelling, the grabbing, the hitting. And this day, at this particular hour, I was not rational anymore. And she was sitting at the table getting ready for dinner, whining and yelling, and I told her I didn't want to have a dinner like this so if she was going to keep yelling to go to her room to do it. And this little 6 year old girl's face crumpled and she said "I don't know why I'm yelling and hitting! I don't want to hit! I don't know why I do it!" and started sobbing. And right then, I just felt so utterly sad for her and desperate to know that this was not going to last forever but scared that it would. That she'd grow up to be this adult who's so volatile and difficult to get along with, and that she'd be unhappy. And I felt so helpless to help her. It's not the same as being depressed (I think), but it hurts all the same to think of your child struggling for years to come with whatever it is that's difficult. And you know, to hear my other kids say "I want to hit because I'm angry" and then hear her say "I don't know why I hit" is just....worrisome. How can my little ones articulate why they hit but she can't? (eta that my younger kids rarely hit, the have the skills to mostly not get to that point.) *sigh* These are the moments when, though I'm so desperate for an explanation and a solution and a guarantee that it will get better, I really just have to let go and....I don't know, enjoy the ride.

Okay, so I've ranted on and gone way off on a tangent. What a habit. At least we're all getting better here. Well, my littlest one says her belly hurts but she hasn't actually gotten sick yet. She's the only one. Maybe she won't get sick. It has been a horribly unhealthy several months for us here. We've never been sick so much. Aaaack. No wonder things have been so difficult for us, eh?

Gotta run.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in. Got in tonight from The Vacation from Hell. I can't and won't even get into all of it. Challenging kids just don't do well with transition. Period. Even if it's the "fun" stuff. Actually, especially, if it's the "fun" stuff. Most of our Hell came from actual, physical illness. That and Bears just being Bears nearly put us ALL over the edge.

Anyhoo. Tonight after 7 hours in a car and little to eat and craziness we're finally in bed (me and the kids) and about to go to sleep. And Bears starts talking about how he thinks he's a "bad kid". My heart sank. Just sank. And tears welled up in my eyes. I tried to have him share with me as much as he could about where this feeling was coming from. I have NEVER used those words with him. So I'm like, hmmmmmmm? Anyway, he's extrapolating that his actions are who he is. And with Bears, there's a lot of running interference to be done in an attempt to "positively discipline". So, it seems perfectly connected to me that he would assume that his actions that are "wrong" are who he is. Just sort of blew me away.

And you know what? We are floundering (no-make that-drowning) in the discipline department. 75% of the time we are just at a loss. A total and utter loss as to what book/expert/parent would have a good suggestion for us when our kid is flailing his legs about and purposely trying to hurt us or his brother. Or when he's purposely demolishing a vacation rental home b/c he's angry and we've acknowledged the feeling, tried to talk to him etc. Short of physically hurting him, we do everything we can to help him change his behavior. I've just tried it all. And then to have him say he still feels like a "bad kid" when this is EXACTLY what we wanted to avoid in trying to positively discipline him his whole life (grant it-we've trailed off this path quite a bit in moments of craziness).

Okay, just rambling. I just have to accept on some very basic level that things will never, EVER, be "easy" with him, that everything will always be turned on it's head with, upside down, inside out. Until nothing feels normal. Trying to take ME out of this perspective ladies, and it still SUCKS.
Maureen-Any survival techniques you learned with NATE? I'm assuming you had to reach some sort of realization about your future and his even when he was a little guy?

Thanks for listening. I missed you guys.


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## MsMoMpls

Dear, dear... sorry to hear vacation went so poorly. I was always flabergasted that Nate was wonderful on vacation... just horrible at life.

The thing that came to mind when reading your post is how do you survive a hurricane? You are living with a powerful storm. I don't think discipline is really what it is about- more about survival and recovery... survival and recovery. I would suggest you just talk to Bears about his storms. You want to externalize them- they are not him... he is not bad but boy does he have bad storms. When he is having a storm- it is too late to move to safe ground, too late to buy flood insurance, just hold on tight. Honestly- can you see riding out the storm rather than resisting and controlling it? Then when the storm is over... just put things back together.

Ok- this all sounds good and it is really the hardest thing in the world to do but I believe it works. I think sometimes our kids are having almost epilectic seizure activity and asking them not to hit, or not to destroy things is a waste of breath. Of course you need to move things of value out of the way- including little brothers of course.

Good to hear from you... I have missed our little group. I will share my recent struggle. Joey turned 4 in March and refuses to consider the potty. Now, I have been patient and I am not really worried that he will go off to college in diapers, I just see this Nate like quality of perfectionism that I am afraid of. My dh and I both have some of this, I see a strong first born pattern. Joey refuses to do anything that he doesn't know how to do- like we got him a bike for his birthday and he hates that thing. It just sits there taunting him for not know how to ride. Any suggestions? Somewhere in my life I guess I figured out that sucking at some things was ok. Not everything can or should be easy. I remember that Nate loved watching me trying to learn to ice skate. I had skated as a kid but not in years. Maybe modeling some learning would be good for us to try. Even Mommies and Daddies don't know how to do everything.

Support and ideas much appreciated.
Hope you are all enjoying a lovely weekend.

Maureen


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## TEAK's Mom

Oh Bears, I wish I had time to send more than hugs right now. But, I figure they are better than nothing. Much love.

k


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## Bearsmama

Thanks TEAKS and Maureen. Good to "see" you this morning!









Maureen-Surviving seems like what we HAVE been doing, but to be honest, you're right: I think we're expecting too much of ourselves and him in those situations. If we think of his wild behavior as "storms"-which is something we learned a while back from the first psychologist we met with-it helps de-personalize the whole thing. Takes it away from him and from us. And then it just is what it is. It's like we have to learn to just "duck and cover" when this stuff happens. Which we think we're doing, but we're not. We're ducking and covering, but we're still peaking our heads out the window to see if it's raining. YKWIM? I have more to say, but it's 6am, and I'm foggy still.

And Maureen-About Joey-I've seen this pattern in Bears, too. First borns get burdened by this stuff, huh? For Bears's b-day in January we talked about going ice skating. Well, he was really, really excited about it. Then, when we go there (and it was just me and him), he puts on the skates, climbs out on the ice with me, and tries one stroke on the ice and falls. Then, he grabs a cone and wails, "I CAN'T DO IT!". We then had the conversation that everyone takes time to learn new things, and that even the little kids on the ice had to start somewhere. I love to ice skate. So the scene was me skating around a bit, really kinda enjoying myself, while my boy sat, clutching a cone.

I don't have any real suggestions. Other than to try and let him see you learn something new every now and then. Maybe he can watch you on your bike? Or is there something you've been meaning to try and learn? You know, with all your free time?







I don't have any answers, but my only suggestion would be to keep exposing him to new things. I think we have a tendency of parents with these challenging kids to try to minimize the damages, so-to-speak, with certain situations. And I do this, too. But I have to make a concious effort to keep exposing him to new things, and new things to learn.

GTG-


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## MsMoMpls

Thanks Bearsmomma- I think I also have to just stop talking so much and do more demonstrating. I was thinking about our storm analogy- the other thing that really helped with Nate as he got older was to talk about feeling like the storm was coming on. I could feel it and sometimes we could figure out how to defuse them- sometimes. Talking about feelings like weather does help because it depersonalizes them but it also makes you realize that all feelings more and change. The biggest problem with depression is that you forget that this will pass, you begin to feel as though the sun has never been out and will never come out again, rather than accepting that rain is a necessary part of life.

Maureen


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## Magella

Bearsmama, only time now for lots of







s


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## Magella

I'm back with an idea for you Bearsmama, which I thought of when reading Maureen's post about talking about the storms and about the storms coming on. I read this really neat idea in that Kurcinka book about sleep. She was talking about finding ways to talk to children about emotional tension, and describing her method. She brings to kids' homes a wineglass (b/c it's the right size, you could use something else) and the ingredients for a homemade volcano. She uses vinegar colored red, baking soda, and also cotton balls. She invites the child to think of things that make him/her happy and then things that frustrate them (going through all sorts of difficult emotions) while also inviting the child to drip the vinegar into the glass. Then when it's nearly full, she invites the child to scoop a teaspoon of baking soda into the glass-the volcano then erupts, and there's excitement about that, then she asks the child if they ever feel like that inside. Then she asks: "when you're feeling all bubbly inside, like the volcano, what makes you feel all soft and good inside like this cotton ball?" And when the child says something, they drop the cotton ball into the volcano glass, dropping three more in as the child thinks of three more things. The bubbles are gone, the glass is filled with just vinegar and cotton balls. Then she asks the child to drop one more spoonful of baking soda in the glass, and it fizzles but doesn't bubble over: she asks the child why they think it didn't bubble over. She explains that it's b/c of the cotton balls, and explains that when the child feels all bubbly inside they can ask for their "cotton balls" (hugs, rest, whatever helps the child).

I thought this was a neat way of helping a child understand and/or articulate what's going on inside when they start to feel that emotional storm coming on. I haven't actually done the volcano thing with my dd (keep forgetting), but reading this has led me to have some creative and interesting discussions with her (when she was calm) that later helped during some times when I could see her storms coming on.

I think Maureen is right about just riding it out, but letting go of trying to fix it and embracing riding it out is not so easy-it's a tough habit to change, this wanting to fix.

Gotta run.


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## emblmrgrl

Hi everyone...

Bearsmama,







I just wanted to touch on this part of your post. And Maureen may be able to elaborate a little more on this from a developmental standpoint, but I've read before that at Bears age it's not always easy for them to separate that their actions are not who they are. I know we've gone thru this with Cole and it worried me to death. It was still happening at the beginning of his school year and he was 5 1/2 at that point. So maybe this is more about where Bears is in his development. I'm sure we could expect a child that has heard he's a bad kid would have issues, but knowing that isn't how you parent and it's not how Cole was parented, I have to believe that cognitively, the distinction is hard to make. I tried to use a lot of examples with Cole about myself and how I screw up but am not a horrible person for it. Whether that helped, I don't know, but he is past that stage now and we're on to different stuff. I just know that having him think he was bad, or worrying that his teacher (or whomever) would make that impression upon him devestated me when I'd tried so hard to make sure he knew he was a GOOD kid. It helped me a bit to know that for some kids, it just takes more time or maybe more explanation to get it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Anyhoo. Tonight after 7 hours in a car and little to eat and craziness we're finally in bed (me and the kids) and about to go to sleep. And Bears starts talking about how he thinks he's a "bad kid". My heart sank. Just sank. And tears welled up in my eyes. I tried to have him share with me as much as he could about where this feeling was coming from. I have NEVER used those words with him. So I'm like, hmmmmmmm? Anyway, he's extrapolating that his actions are who he is. And with Bears, there's a lot of running interference to be done in an attempt to "positively discipline". So, it seems perfectly connected to me that he would assume that his actions that are "wrong" are who he is. Just sort of blew me away.


Okay, just wanted to offer that up while I had a moment. We've finished the school year (OMG we made it) and I'm trying to keep them busy thru the adjustment period. Talk to you all soon ...


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## MsMoMpls

You know, the other thing about being a "bad" kid... maybe it is ok that they aren't proud of all of their behavior. Maybe they should be somewhat disappointed with themselves. Perhaps we need to talk about how they can make ammends when they feel they have been bad. I think developing a conscience is complicated. I think a parent telling her child he is bad is very different than the concept a child applies to themselves. Remember- I am not a big fan of self-esteem. I don't want kids to think they are perfect, I want them to know their strengths and their weaknesses in some form of appropriate perspective. We all get so afraid we have destroyed their sense of worth. I suppose we need to give the kids the same messages we are working on- that they have challenges and struggles bigger than other kids.


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## Bearsmama

Ladies, once again, you inspire and amaze. And not with BS. With the real-deal.









Maureen-I really like the weather analogies a lot and I just put up a post-it note on the kitchen cabinet that reads: Survival and Recovery. Just to help me not to expect too much during the bad moments. Two other things on my mind here-About the depression thing-I think that this part pertains to me, actually. I have this very fatalistic part of my personality that has had to learn (and relearn over and over again) that that the bad moments are not forever. I have never had any clinical depression-and I think part of that is biological, of course. And the other is that I can usually get myself past these parts in a decent amount of time. But that part remains and I'm working on helping myself and my kid accept and deal with those hard, emotions.

Emblm-It's comforting to know that you've been thru this with your Cole. It think you're right-I think that this has a lot to do with being 4 1/2. But like you said, it killed me and still does to actually hear and re-hear these words, "bad kid". This is what I've worked AGAINST for his entire life. I've never said this-I've actually gone out of my way NOT to make things in his life feel black & white, good or bad. I want him to be okay with the "grey" areas. Sort of what Maureen says. Like, yes, he should have some guilt or moments of pause to consider how his behavior is affecting everyone else.

There's some book that talks about kids' self-esteem. And that many parents believe that we have to "build up" our child's self-esteem. And that really, the deal is that they are born with everything they need. Like a full cup. We just have to be careful not to spill too much.

sledg-I really like the volcano analogy, too, and the visual experiment. We always say to Bears, "what can we do to help?", or "Do you need me to leave you alone?", "do you need to cuddle?". And sometimes even these words are too much for him during one of his storms.

oop-gtg. More when I can.

Thank you, friends. For continuuing this long-term conversation and friendship.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, I do think that as Emblm said a lot of the "bad kid" stuff has to do with age. My 4.5 year old is always saying (when I'm frustrated with older dd) "but _I'm_ good always, right?" And a part of me really cringes when that happens, because I don't want my kids to think I love them only because/when they do things I like. But I don't know that they are able to understand any differently. Heck, I wrap my own worth up in what I do instead of who I am a lot of the time. It's not all that easy to tease out who we are from what we do, if it's possible at all. _Do_ we have a self that's contained and separate from what we do? (okay, that's going way off track)

I think my goal is to over time (a really long time) let my kids know (somehow) that I do love them no matter what. And maybe it's not so much the words I use but the knowing that even in the middle of the worst storms I'm there, and I'm trying, and I'll give the hugs if they want them, and I want to help. And maybe the storms, as terrible as they feel to me, aren't even the most important part. Maybe it's all the times in between that matter more, because there are more of those in between parts. And maybe there's no way of knowing which part matters most to my kids, because they're their own people. I think I'll find out when they're grown, when they tell me either how great I was or how terrible I was. I was saying to dh awhile back that I think maybe we won't be really good at this parenting stuff until we're grandparents. And then we'll be perfect.









And I'm thinking lately that I'm with Maureen on this: is it really all bad for kids to feel some regret or disappointment over their behavior? No, I don't think it's good for them to be overcome with shame, but don't we all learn sometimes from that yucky feeling we have after we've done something that isn't in line with our values/desires/needs/whatever-you-want-to-call-it? Is it really my job to ensure that my kids feel good all the time? Or is it more important that I help my kids learn, partially through my own example, that we can do things and feel badly but then learn and move on? That it feels bad, and it's a signal to attend to something, but it's not the end of the world?

And Bearsmama, I'm (s-l-o-w-l-y) learning that words _during_ the full-blown storms are usually too much. Dd is 6.5 and I'm just now getting much better at reading her cues, or she's slowing down rather than escalating so quickly (or both), and I can often help with the words and whatnot just before it's a full-blown storm. KWIM? But still, once it's reached that point it's just sort of duck-and-cover and get through it. We can clean up afterward.


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## Bearsmama

: Okay, although that _does_, in fact, sum up my mood, I put it there just to check it out.

Sledg-I really liked your last post (but I really like all your posts). I am learning to "duck and cover". That has been huge for me the past few days. But what do you do when you CAN'T duck and cover and ride it out? For instance, I cannot physically move Bears anywhere for him to have his storm. Nor can I successfully even move away from him. He follows, he torments. Tonight, he was hitting me, DH, and his little brother, just b/c he was tired and grumpy. And he is actually now making contact with us and it hurts! (he used to sort of raise his hands to someone, but not make contact with our bodies). DH tried to move him to his bedroom to so he could flip out there. That ended up with books, toys, etc., being thrown over the steps to the floor down below.

And what if those in-between times you mentioned are few and far between? Seriously. I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes I really look at our days, weeks, etc., and see that we've had more storms, more moments of chaos, anger, sadness, and generaly mayhem, then any good times. I said to DH tonight that Bears is like a pineapple: a lot of work for not a lot of yield. I know that sounds terrible. But the amount of energy & time, emotional heartache, mental energy, and stress it takes to parent him for one day to have so many nights end in the crapper? To have more incidents/blow-ups, meltdowns (my own included), for the rare good times? It just feels that our lives are completely and utterly out of whack.

I actually can't find much that's pleasant at all about parenting him, really. I don't think anyone but you guys here really know how incredibly hard-no-IMPOSSIBLE, our days are. Really. Yes, we're going thru a particularly horrible time. I realize that. But shouldn't we have *something* here that feels like it's working? No consequences work, very little works. I'm trying to ride it out. I can't believe I've parented him this long, actually, without running away. Which is really what I want to do. He has made me regret being a parent many days. Sounds terrible, I know. But there is just so little joy so much of the time with him that I wonder, where's the bone here? Is there any bone? He doesn't owe me anything. I know that. But I just don't know how we're going to survive him.

Thanks for listening.


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## michelle1k

Oh Bearsmama









I have posted just once before to let you know that your child could've been mine at that age. In many ways, he still is (he is now 8).

I have so many times read your posts and thought to myself, "that's us, she's living our life" but usually I don't have the energy to post. And since you live with someone who sucks the proverbial energy / life out of you too, I know you know what it's like. Your whole post tonight really spoke to me, especially this part, which I have expressed *countless* times to my best friend:

"But I just don't know how we're going to survive him."

We have seen professionals who have ruled out any pathology. But this child is seriously hard work with all of his daily emotional fall-out, food challenges (sensitivites and allergies) mind-games, high-intensity and constant neediness.

He often also says "I'm bad, right?".







He knows, deep down, that his behavior is intolerable even though I try so hard to not let him know the level at which he gets to me. And at night, guilt overcomes him and it all spills out.

A small clue to the origins of his behavior came when he had an IQ test administered. He was topping out the WISC-111 test - which means that with his extraordinary mind comes extraordinary emotional challenges. I have long suspected that Bears may be gifted since many (but not at all) exceptionally gifted children struggle with these intensely overwhelming emotions and often are extremely hard to parent and live with. Knowing this does not make the day-to-day challenges easier to live with, but it has given me some tools to deal with specific incidents. Books such as "Guiding the gifted child" by Elizabeth Meckstroth come to mind. We homeschool, so I have this kid 24/7, which is an additional challenge.

I don't know what I would have done if I did not have another child. I know that sounds terrible, but what she has shown me is that parenting is rewarding and fun. That you can give and receive affection - the non-violent kind. That I / we did not "create" my ds's temperament - he really was born that way.

Oh my gosh, mama, I wish you lived closer.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I said to DH tonight that Bears is like a pineapple: a lot of work for not a lot of yield.

Oh dear- I am so amazed by your honesty. I am also touched that you trust us enough with those really ugly thoughts. I certainly had lots of them. I just hated him sometimes. I said horrible things. Sometimes I just gave up- which was probably the worst. He could feel that. It was worse than any words.

To tell you the truth... It was the depokote that kept us safe. Putting Nate on a mood stabilizer kept us from blood shed. He wasn't violent until 8 and I was a single mom- he was a big kid. I used to restrain him for hours, he broke windows and a chair and I got a bloody nose once and a black eye another time. He was scary to the dog, to my family, to the neighbors. I don't remember much of that time... I just have this horrible feeling when I read posts like yours. I remember the first time I had to call the police on my baby, the first time I had to leave him in a locked unit at the hospital.

I don't want to scare you. I just want to make sure you get the right help. He sounds very bipolar, or on the autism spectrum. I don't think we ever got Nate's diagnosis quite straigth- Tourettes was/is the best definition. But turning down his intensity was only accomplished with medication. Absolutely nothing I did ever made any difference for good or bad. Some days I could make him better for a little while and some days I was part of what was making him crazy but mostly it had nothing to do with me.

You also need to remember, that 30 years ago, kids like ours would have been sent to state hospitals for months or years. No one would have expected a family to handle this complex of a situation. I am not advocating that- clearly it didn't work either but at least professionals get to have some emotional distance. Parenting and trying to manage this kind of behavior is more than we should expect.

Sorry- I don't have much good tonight.... I just want you to know it really is horrible and unfair and scary and you are doing heroic work.

This is a bit off topic and I don't want to pry into family finances but have you all looked into applying for Social Security for him? (And this goes for other parents lurking.) There is some money and Medicare services available for disabled kids. It can help a bit and opens up some services you might not be able to manage such as PCAs (personal care attendents.)

Peace to all tonight. Love them, get a good night sleep and hang on for dear life.

Maureen


----------



## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I am learning to "duck and cover". That has been huge for me the past few days. But what do you do when you CAN'T duck and cover and ride it out? For instance, I cannot physically move Bears anywhere for him to have his storm. Nor can I successfully even move away from him. He follows, he torments. Tonight, he was hitting me, DH, and his little brother, just b/c he was tired and grumpy. And he is actually now making contact with us and it hurts! (he used to sort of raise his hands to someone, but not make contact with our bodies). DH tried to move him to his bedroom to so he could flip out there. That ended up with books, toys, etc., being thrown over the steps to the floor down below.

Well, I sort of meant "metaphorically duck and cover." When dd is in a full-fledged storm, I can't put dd in a safe time-out that is physically apart from us (which I don't like to do anyway) and I can't take a time-out myself that is physically apart from her (which I sometimes really need). She won't stay apart from me. She follows me as if there's a tractor beam radiating from my *ss and she's caught in it. Screaming, yelling, throwing crap, kicking-completely non-redirectable, completely inconsolable. No reaching her. At all. At this point she's mostly not hitting/kicking us, but there's still the throwing and screaming. So when I say "duck and cover" it's sort of an internal thing-finding that spot of peace mentally, inside myself. You know, that zen spot you find when you decide "okay, this is happening, I can't stop it, but I don't have to let it bother me so much. It'll be over soon, and we can deal with it better then." This is where breathing and mantras come in handy, as does the awareness that what is happening does not have the power to rule me and make me feel anything. The power is in me. One moment at a time I can deal with it. One shriek at a time, one thrown object at a time. No thinking about the future, or catastrophizing about what kind of adult this means she'll be. Just this one breath, this one moment, just get through this one. Now this one. And then it's over (eventually).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And what if those in-between times you mentioned are few and far between? Seriously. I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes I really look at our days, weeks, etc., and see that we've had more storms, more moments of chaos, anger, sadness, and generaly mayhem, then any good times. I said to DH tonight that Bears is like a pineapple: a lot of work for not a lot of yield. I know that sounds terrible. But the amount of energy & time, emotional heartache, mental energy, and stress it takes to parent him for one day to have so many nights end in the crapper? To have more incidents/blow-ups, meltdowns (my own included), for the rare good times? It just feels that our lives are completely and utterly out of whack.

I felt like this for years. Really. It's just this last many months (nearly a year?) that have felt better-and that's not because of anything particularly wonderful that we've done as parents, or because anything we're doing is "working" in terms of changing her behavior, but because she's maturing (that's not to say that I haven't found a lot that works to help _me_ deal with parenting her, I have). And you know what? I wish now that we'd gone for help a long time ago. Of any kind, maybe lots of kinds until we found the right kind. But still, you know, those good times were evidence that there was hope. And also, I see now, evidence of this beautiful, wonderful child who just can't live as easily as other people do. I don't know.







That's all I have to offer.







s I think that with challenging kids it's all about getting the information, help and support you need to cope with parenting them. There's really no fixing or changing (though there can be some alleviating with the right help), so there's just getting what we need as parents to get through it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I actually can't find much that's pleasant at all about parenting him, really. I don't think anyone but you guys here really know how incredibly hard-no-IMPOSSIBLE, our days are. Really. Yes, we're going thru a particularly horrible time. I realize that. But shouldn't we have *something* here that feels like it's working? No consequences work, very little works. I'm trying to ride it out. I can't believe I've parented him this long, actually, without running away. Which is really what I want to do. He has made me regret being a parent many days. Sounds terrible, I know. But there is just so little joy so much of the time with him that I wonder, where's the bone here? Is there any bone? He doesn't owe me anything. I know that. But I just don't know how we're going to survive him.

I have so felt that same way. There are still days I feel like I don't like her. There have been days I've actually thought that life would be so much easier if she were somehow just gone (and then totally felt like the worst mother ever, and felt totally guilty because I love her so much). I've hated her (guilt). And it really, truly sucks to feel like that. But we do survive, and we will continue to survive, and I think it will continue to get better. There was a time I didn't think it would get better. Ever. If I had to bet, I'd bet that it will get better for you too. He'll mature, or you'll find the help you need and he needs, or both (hopefully both, it sounds like you so need the help-of some kind).

Where's the bone?







Life is funny. Sometimes we go through these horrid things and we just don't see what's in it for us that's any good. And then years later, we realize what the good was, how we benefitted from what we went through and the gifts it gave us. And sometimes we get little, tiny glimpses of it in between the moments of pain. Either way, it's the hope and the tiny glimpses that keep us going, no? You still have the hope, I think, or you wouldn't be trying so damn hard. And you still have the tiny glimpses.

Gtg. More







s


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And what if those in-between times you mentioned are few and far between? Seriously. I'm not exaggerating. Sometimes I really look at our days, weeks, etc., and see that we've had more storms, more moments of chaos, anger, sadness, and generaly mayhem, then any good times. I said to DH tonight that Bears is like a pineapple: a lot of work for not a lot of yield. I know that sounds terrible. But the amount of energy & time, emotional heartache, mental energy, and stress it takes to parent him for one day to have so many nights end in the crapper? To have more incidents/blow-ups, meltdowns (my own included), for the rare good times? It just feels that our lives are completely and utterly out of whack.

RE: the pineapple. Cole had a project he brought home from school earlier in the year where you had to pick a tree or fruit that described your family. I chose a pineapple. It seems to be so fitting.

Quote:

I actually can't find much that's pleasant at all about parenting him, really. I don't think anyone but you guys here really know how incredibly hard-no-IMPOSSIBLE, our days are. Really. Yes, we're going thru a particularly horrible time. I realize that. But shouldn't we have *something* here that feels like it's working? No consequences work, very little works. I'm trying to ride it out. I can't believe I've parented him this long, actually, without running away. Which is really what I want to do. He has made me regret being a parent many days. Sounds terrible, I know. But there is just so little joy so much of the time with him that I wonder, where's the bone here? Is there any bone? He doesn't owe me anything. I know that. But I just don't know how we're going to survive him.

Thanks for listening.
I have been where I didn't like Cole. Have wondered what it would be like to leave. Have not wanted to parent him at all - oh my the guilt. I've been known to reply in response to someone saying something about having kids stolen "they'd bring Cole back" and mean every word of it.

I do have to say though that, in retrospect, things have gotten better for us over the last year. Cole is now over 6 and at 4.5 I thought we might not make it many many days. We seem to be, well *I* seem to be coping better where he is concerned. I still have lots to work on but I do remember at 4.5 I was at the end of my rope. That's how I found this place. The bad days were out numbering the good and I felt desperate for something. I think sometimes the only reason I didn't flip out completely and make the ten o'clock news is that I knew deep down, I couldn't.

Ok, gtg for now ... the children are getting restless! Many







being sent your way.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, I came back because I've been thinking about your post all morning and I've been thinking about my worst times with my dd. And I'm wondering what it is you're needing right now. When I read your post I hear that you're feeling frustrated, discouraged, exasperated, exhausted, burnt out, resentful. I wonder if you're grieving a bit in some way. And I'm wondering if you're needing ease, peace, reassurance, empathy, appreciation, a greater sense of safety or stability, some nurturing, some control. I can remember feeling and needing all those things during our toughest times, and I remember not knowing how to get those needs met and not knowing if it was even possible to get those needs met. (At the time I also couldn't even articulate those feelings and needs.)

I can so remember the agony of the worst times, and feeling so alone. And I so want to help. But you're so far away.







Know that I'm thinking of you.


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## Justine

Hi all,

Not been posting much due to new baby & the demands of tandem-nursing







: but I couldn't not respond to bearsmamas tough time right now.

I am sending you English hugs









My heart goes right out to you, and Maureen could not have put it better - you are heroic. The amount of soul-searching and agonising you have done over your little boy is so incredibly moving, I really feel your pain. It frustrates me think of some of smart, compassionate, funny, intelligent mama like you going through all of this and there are mamas out there with such 'easy' kids they take for granted.

I am sure wise old sledg is right too - in years to come you will look back and maybe understand all of this better and hopefully it will make some sense.

Sledg & Maureen your supportive posts to Bearsmama have moved me to tears. You are very, very special women.

Bearsmama, hang in there - I hope you things turn around and you have some good days.

Justine


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## Bearsmama

My Dear Mamas,
I have so much to say. But THANK YOU is the first thing that comes to mind.

Maureen-I read your post last night before bed, and I just cried and cried and cried. I read it aloud to DH and we were both very upset b/c it seemed like what you're talking about-bipolar disorder-is what we've feared in our hearts for Bear's future. During the okay times, I can see that Bears is going to be a challenge forever. He just will. Whatever it is we've always known that it will be tougher for him and for us. During the bad times, I think it will be grueling, grueling work for him and for us forever. And not just work, but understanding a disability of sorts, dealing with mental illness, etc. Last night's post, Maureen, really sort of encapsulated my fears. And I think, in retrospect, I needed to really read it. Just then, at that exact moment. I need to really face what our future *MAY* be. And I say *MAY* b/c we still don't know. He is still so young-not even 4 and a half years old. A baby. And even the last psych. that we met with said that anyone who says that they can dx a kid Bear's age with BP (or much else, for that matter) is not being truthful. And that the truth is: we just don't know. We don't know. A psych wouldn't know. And that not-knowing is sort of a symbol to me of this whole parenting thing. In many ways, it's all a crap shoot. Even with a kid like Bears. But reading your words last night sort of made me think of all the possibilities in a very real way. And the big possibility-the one that DH and I have held in our hearts-that he will (and does, currently) suffer from some depressive illness.

sledg-Last night there was only dark. Today, with puffy eyes and little sleep, I could see some light again. My boy was my boy again, not the embodiment of all my fears for him. He was my quirky, lovable, funny, sweet boy. And the only thing that changed was that I could see some light again. And that I had a sense that somehow we'll get through this. Somehow. Even if it's moment to moment, breathing. And me worrying and sweating and being anxious about his future-although a very legitamate fear-will get us nowhere. Just down that little, dark rabbit hole of what-ifs.

I felt a little bit stronger, today, too, b/c I spoke to someone I know whose brother is severely bipolar. This person knows Bears really well and we just talked and talked about her bro was at this age and how Bears is (some similarities but not a ton). But the main reason we spoke is b/c her family is really close. And I just needed to hear her talk about how her family is still all together, not fractured, open and loving, not ashamed at all of what her bro has and how it's affected her family. She's very honest and open. I just needed to hear, okay, if the worst case scenario happens with Bears, what does that look like in a family? How are they where they are today?
This is a young-ish family (the bro is 20). So all of this is still very present in her mind.

sledg-I'm not good with the quoting thing here, but I love all that you wrote and as always, it just all resonates with me so much. I had some glimpses today. I can see again. The guilt, shame, etc., is sometimes too much to bear. I never in a million years thought I'd ever have these feelings about my own child. But being honest about them sort of sets them free.

And sledg-I don't know what I need. Maybe some sleep. Some good moments. I don't think I can get all my needs met. I really don't. But I'm feeling everything you mentioned. Spent is a big one. I'm spent. Stick a fork in me, I'm done.

emblm-So funny that the pineapple stuff keeps coming up. I love the hugs, and I need them. And I appreciate your perspective even two years out from where we are.

Michelle-Thank you. We've wondered about Bears, and whether or not he's gifted. He's clearly very bright, and I wonder how much this intelligence goes hand and hand with some kind of emotional strife to bear in life. My sis, who has struggled with depression her whole life, is seriously one of the most intelligent people I've ever met (like scary smart). We went thru this phase where we thought that giftedness really encapsulated all of Bear's issues. But then I thought that maybe I was looking for something positive to sort of cover up the truth of his troubling behavior. But the truth really is that these things could go hand-in-hand with each other, right? Like, these things aren't mutually exclusive issues.

Justine-I will take all your english hugs! Thank you.

Gtg-Dh needs the computer. I have much love for all of you. More when I can. I found a great quote today that came at the right time. I'll share it below:

The guts carry the feet, not the feet the guts.
Miguel de Cervantes


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## MsMoMpls

Dear Bearsmama-

I am so glad that you are finding support here and again want to commend you for your bravery and openness. So many of us need this space.

Just one reminder... Nate had every symptom of bipolar- manic/depression. He was diagnosed and treated for it from 9-17. My mother is bipolar as is my uncle. I have an extensive family history for depression.

And Nate is not bipolar today. He isn't. No diagosis is a death sentence. And even my mom isn't nearly as crazy as lots of people's moms. And I love them and they love me and for the most part they are happy contributing members of society. I actually have them both pretty much raised.









I don't want to scare you but this does sound like a neurobiological illness and just want you to remember that parenting is not a very realistic solution. No wonder you feel overwhelmed.

Keep checking in... we are creating a universe that supports children no matter what their struggles. No easy feat.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-







This is where I get my strength. And a lot of knowledge, hope, tricks, tips, and most importantly, this is where I get to just BE and say what I really feel about parenting this boy. And man, I don't know what I'd do without it.

BP-My sis has struggled with clinical depression on and off her whole life. And in retrospect, I believe my mother had depression, too. And probably some other members of my extended family. That said, my sis is a fully functioning, professionally successful person and talented, creative, etc. I say that b/c I get what you're saying: This may be a future dx, but it's not a death sentence. In the darkest times, I feel that heavy burden of Bear's future being a "sentence". But after I read your words, and remember those of my friends and family that have some sort of mental illness and remember that, duh, they are all doing just fine, thank you very much.

And my DH and I joke that we're the only ones we know who AREN'T on medication for something at the moment! I really think depression, anxiety, etc., are even more rampant than we realize.

It is comforting to know that Nate has "outgrown" much of his problems and coincidentally, the BP. Which I've been told happens with many of these neurobiological things in kids. Thank you for reminding me that I'm tryign to parent my way through something that parenting can't really help.

Anyway, I have loads more to say, but my little one needs me. I have so much love for all of you. I've said this before, but if you would have told me before I had Bears that I would find this community of women that I don't even know IRL that I could share these moments, these feelings, this life with, well, I would have thought you were crazy. I am amazed where our lives take us. And that somehow I found all of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.


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## srain

A few recent posts have made me think about how having subsequent children after a challenging first can open our eyes to, honestly, just how BAD things were/ are. My daughter, now 18 months, is by no means perfect- she doesn't sleep ever, hates the car, and spent her first six months crying. But since she was a year old, she's been pleasant and often fun to be with during the day; she's made me realize why so many people adore little kids and want to have big families. I never would have understood that if my son (now 5) were my only child!

I hate comparing the two, but it's impossible not to. Seeing how comparatively easy life CAN be with a toddler brings up a lot of regrets about how our lives COULD have been so much better for the past several years, if only kid 1 had functioned more within normal range. I'm generally able to shrug my shoulders and tell myself, "well, that's not what we got," but sometimes it's hard-

And I'm coming from a place where my oldest is much much better now, and our lives with him are very manageable. It would be so much harder if, like some of you, he were continuing to be soooo demanding after the "easier" child was born-


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## Bearsmama

srain-Thanks for your reply. And yes, this has been our experience, too. Thank GOD we had a second child. Thank GOD, Thank GOD. I remember an old neighbor of mine watching me fret and worry with Bears running around the front yard of my old house, near the street. And she said, "You need to have another child to stop worrying about that one". And I think there is some truth to that. Not to mention that our second is an enjoyable, "normal" kid. Even lately, our second (who will be 2 yo in August), has been having tantrums. You know, over the "normal" things: not being able to do everything himself, not being able to have everything that his older brother has, etc. And my neighbor this week has actually said she was "sorry" that we're going through this with our toddler right now, b/c MAN, it's hard to hear a little one cry and scream. But you know what? I take all of his stuff in stride. This week, he has seriously cried for hours and hours if I actually added it all up. But along with that comes all the amazing parts of who my little one is. He's bright, cheerful, joyful, actually. Incredibly affectionate, funny, easy going, understands ALREADY about cause and effect, etc., etc., etc.

Now, Bears was a completely other story, as you know.

So, my DH and I really enjoy our second child in a way that we haven't been able to do with Bears. I really hate to compare, but it's almost impossible not to. The differences are actually striking.


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## Magella

Oh, man! I totally agree about subsequent children opening our eyes. When my son hit the age at which things became _really_ difficult with my oldest dd (3), it started to become so clear how different she was-how really difficult she was to parent. And now with my son being 4.5 and my little one being 2.5, and seeing them both having normal tantrums and normal difficulties where it's just not a big deal at all in any way-well, in a way it's just such a huge relief because it's becoming more and more clear somehow that what's going on with my oldest really isn't my fault. KWIM? I figure if I were that bad a parent, they'd all be some kind of mess.







(right?







) And since I'm no longer stuck in this idea that it's my fault and I have to fix it with just the right parenting, I am beginning to see now how to get through it. I'm feeling more at ease with it all. And it also does help, too, that maturity seems to be helping my oldest.

It is so very hard not to compare, because the differences really are soooooooo striking.

YK, it's also heartbreaking in some ways though, because our oldest has taken so very much of our time and attention. I feel like in some ways we've missed out on some time with our younger ones. But then again, maybe all parents of more than one child feel that way sometimes.


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## Bearsmama

sledg, I am laughing after reading your post b/c I feel the exact same way. All I need to do when I'm feeling really down on myself is look at my youngest. On the good days, I can see that if I really was that terrible of a parent, he'd be a mess, too! And he's just not. In any way. It really does make one see the true struggleof the challenging kid. And, the small bonus is that it is a relief. A tiny, tiny relief.


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## Bearsmama

Night terrors, bed-wetting, tantrums, OH MY!







:

Yes, I had to invoke the spirit of Dorothy to fully communicate the craziness of my challenging kid lately. At least my sense of humor is back today.

The last day of preschool is tomorrow, and I have a feeling that a lot of the kids are having hard times right now-even the "normal" ones. Which makes me feel only a tiny bit better. Bears has not gone through a stretch of time like this in a while. Sure, we've had clusters of days, but this is going on a month that he has been out-of-control. Last night he wet the bed (which is something he used to do when he was going thru something). He's also woken up about 5 days in a row now with night terrors. So loud and violent (he wakes up everyone, and if we try to remove ourselves from his path, he follows) that I'm afraid someone will call the cops. The neighbors have heard it for the past few. They're just terrible, and although I've dealt with them before, I'm asking if anyone out there has advice for dealing with them? They scare the hell outta Bears, and subsequently, my little one is frightened by them, too. Last night, a few hours after his night terror, my youngest woke up scared, saying, "No, no, nooooooooo".

Another interesting point here is that my neighbor asked this morning if when Bears is finally through a really bad spell like this is he better on the other side. And the answer in the past has been YES. Hmmmmmmm???

So, it's been a lot of fun around here lately. Just trying to get thru it. I have my bad moments, my breakdowns, but today I'm feeling like I have more strength, more energy, more positivity to be Bear's Alpha dog through this. I need to fake it to make it here, ladies.

Hope all of you are well. Thank you again for this tremendous source of love and support for me and my family.

I think it was Winston Churchill that said, "When you're going through HELL, keep going." That's what I'm doing, ladies.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
The neighbors have heard it for the past few. They're just terrible, and although I've dealt with them before, I'm asking if anyone out there has advice for dealing with them? They scare the hell outta Bears, and subsequently, my little one is frightened by them, too.

The neighbors or the night terrors (the advice and the scaring)?

I'm guessing the night terrors. Guess who has something resembling night terrors? Bingo! My challenging dd. Since infancy. I don't know that night terrors is an accurate term. When I did some research to figure out how to handle them, the description of both night terrors and of confusional arousals both seemed to fit. Either way, she's got a problem sleeping. She "wakes" yelling, thrashing, hitting/kicking. But really, she's not awake. Her eyes are open, and if we talk to her she does respond as though she's heard us, but I think she's in between being asleep and being awake. If we talk to her, the whole episode gets worse. If we touch her (especially to "restrain" her in any way, like blocking a kick or punch)-that's when it becomes a really awful, shrieking, violent (literally-hitting, kicking) episode. One night when they were all still sleeping with us, she was punching me and I was blocking and she was yelling and I got sick of it and picked her up and took her to her room. Worst thing I could have done. I cannot explain to you how bad the episode was that night. And once an episode really gets going (usually because we've been talking to her or touching her), it can last up to half and hour. The episodes happen more frequently when she's overtired, stressed, sick, busy day, day with conflict, been eating too much of certain foods.

(She also has nightmares, but she's fully awake crying for us when it's a nightmare, and we can console her (no awful episode) and sometimes she can tell us about her dream.)

The advice I've read, and what helps us here, is to first try prevention (keep her well-rested overall, reduce stress as much as possible, good nutrition). When she's actually having an episode it's best to just not interact at all with her. So no talking, _*definitely no touching*_. Once in awhile it seems to help if we simply say in a soft, soothing voice "you're safe"-but only once or twice, any more verbal interaction than that and we're making it worse. This is easier said than done when an episode is keeping others awake, but really it's better than making an episode worse (so it's louder & scarier) and keeping everyone up longer. Prevention, prevention, prevention. Sometimes you can't prevent, but you can alleviate. KWIM? So if something's stressing dd out, we do our best to help her relax/cope overall.

Off. little one is with the grandparents, the nephew has gone home (we babysit on Wednesdays), the oldest is at school-so it's just me and my son.







Time for fun.


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## emblmrgrl

Hello mamas ... I've been busy with birthday stuff over the past weekend so I'm just now getting to the thread. My littlest guy turned 2 on Saturday!

Bearsmama,







... we don't have night terrors so I have no advice on that front. Cole has horrible sleeping patterns but never any terrors or nightmares, fortunately. His worst habit, and has been since he was able, has been to get up at random times during the night. Sometimes he woke us, sometimes not, but he would be up and playing or wandering thru the house just because he was awake. Also, I should say, I didn't co-sleep with the twins so he has always slept in his own bed. He's had a tv in his room though since he was 3 just so I could keep him safe. I figured if he was gonna be up, I felt better about him watching a movie and staying in his room than wandering thru the house and not waking me.

But going back to the first child thing... I guess my situation was backwards. My oldest is quite the angel. Always the child that is complemented on her behavior and is welcomed anywhere with friends. She was a really mature kid, even as a toddler. When Cole came along, lord have mercy! How could parenting two (well three in my case at the time) kids the exact same way result in one of them being so different?! Cy is like is sister, as is my littlest one. So I was really thrown for a loop because I expected Cole to be like Carson was ... and as we now know, that certainly isn't what I got! LOL


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## Bearsmama

sledg-I guess the English major could have worded that sentence a little better.







The neighbors are scary, too (








), but YES, I was referring to the night terrors.

Thank you for the advice. I have to read more thoroughly. I have snuck into the kitchen while the kids are quiet, and I don't have much time.

emblm-







Thank you. And I don't know what I'd do if Bears came 2nd. I think it's almost better to have the challenging one come first b/c then anything else seems like a cake walk. More on your son's sleeping patterns, later...isn't it interesting, however, that many of these challenging kids have weird sleep things. Sleepwalking, waking, night terrors,etc? Hmmmmm?


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## michelle1k

Ditto for my ds on the night terrrors and while this phase of his life has passed now, an "interesting" phenomenon has taken its place: sleepwalking.







The same thing has almost consistently induced both night-terrors and sleepwalking in my kid: the need to pee. So, we have to limit before-bed drinks at all costs or else we all suffer.

My 8-year old ds has up until recently been known to pee on the living room mat, into the dishwasher, the trashcan....all while sleepwalking







I can laugh about it now, but it was pretty weird at the time.

I agree with sledg on the no-talking thing while in the throes of a night-terror, but sometimes we had to pick him up and carry him to the bathroom to pee even though he was hitting, kicking and shrieking like a banshee, eyes open, speaking in gibberish and completely "not in his body", so to speak. Once the bladder-pressure was relieved, he would settle right back into a deep sleep with no memory of it in the morning. Trying to reason with my kid was the absolute worst thing we could do as it would incite him to previously unattained levels of hysteria.


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## Magella

Michelle (hey, I'm Michelle too







), that's interesting about your son's needing to pee. That is something I never would have thought of. How did you figure that out?


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## michelle1k

By intuition / 6th sense, really! Once we took him once to pee and he calmed down nearly instantly, we tried it again the next time, of course. And that still seems to be the trigger.


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## Magella

Ahhh, the magic of intuition.

I had another thought, thinking about the sensation of a full bladder as trigger and imagining how that sensation could partially (but not completely) rouse someone and lead to one of these sleep episodes: My dd has been having fewer episodes since moving to her own bed and I think part of the reason for that is that she's not crowded and bumping into someone (thus partially waking) every time she moves in her sleep. This was part of our decision to move everyone to their own beds-she was having multiple episodes nearly every night, and since we were awake so much because of it we noticed that the episodes often (but not always) coincided with her movement and bumping into someone.

It is interesting that it seems that so many challenging kids have odd sleep issues.


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## MsMoMpls

Not much time tonight ladies... exhausted!!! but I just sent my first kid for a full blown sleep study. I have worked with he and his mom for a few years- he's 10 now and nothing seems to really help much, doesn't really fit any clear definition but we recently decided we had to check out his sleep so he is going to the University Sleep Center overnight with mom to measure sleep patterns. I will certainly let you know if they are any help. My worst fear is that they will diagnose him with a sleep disorder but not really have much to offer.

Nate's sleep was often an issue- he also grinds his teeth something horribly at night.

Off topic... can I tell you he is in love with a 24 year old single mom!?!? Boy am I ready for that? I love that he is taking it so seriously- very aware of how his relationship with her impacts the little one. Wow... I did good with this one.


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## TEAK's Mom

TEAK has night terrors, too. Thankfully, they are far less these days, but they were horrendous for nearly two years. I totally agree that trying to restrain her or move her were the worst things to try and greatly prolonged the episodes. Three things helped us. The first was doing the whole stay quiet and calm thing with a few murmured reassurances. That worked if applied at the exact right moment. Another thing that worked even when things were full-blown was to recite a very familiar book to her softly. Somehow, the pattern of the words permeated when nothing else would. I can't tell you how many nights I sat there reciting Eloise. I think I still have all 87 pages of the first book memorized.







Number three is music. We play the same cd for her every night as she falls asleep and turn it off when we come to bed. On bad nights, it plays all night long and if we turn it on during an episode, she calms. Somehow both familiar words and music reach her when no amount of other attention will.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Wow- so much good stuff here on night terrors and lots else this morning.

Funny-Bears grinds his teeth, too. Not every night, but sometimes there is a pattern of a few days where I hear it on an off all night long.

Michelle-Very interesting about the full bladder. The other night, he had a horrible night terror AND peed in the bed. Within an hour or two of each other. No night terror last night, but he peed in the bed again. This is a problem on many levels-the first of which is that we co-sleep still, and well, a wet bed is not fun for anyone at 3:00am. I'm not even sure I could escort him to the bathroom when he's either dead asleep or having a terror. How did you manage that?

Also, Bears still sleeps in these pull-up type underwear things (he actually knows how to stay dry, but I really think it's a comfort thing and I'm just letting this one go for now). Anyway, I actually bought a different kind of them the other day-ones for younger kids b/c I couldn't find the ones we normally buy. Lo and behold the first night with the younger kid pull-up on and he pees out of his diaper all over the place. It's almost like he was regressing a bit b/c of the reminder of the old diaper? Maybe I'm connecting things here that don't make much sense.

sledg-Can you tell us how you successfully moved a long-time co-sleeping kid? Bears says that he will sleep in his own bed "when he's 5". Well, I've been ready for him to be in his own space now for ages. I think the lack of space, the bumping into everyone, rouses him. And of course, everyone else. Some nights he sleeps solid as a rock, and others it's like he's crying out for more space. He has his own twin bed in his "official" bedroom, but has always slept with us. I think my little one is ready to sleep on his own, but Bears is resisting. And the whole arrangement, quite frankly, has wreaked havoc on everyone. It has not always been a good thing. Any suggestions from your success with your dd?

And Maureen-When I see the link to your parenting center I find myself humming that old song, "Midnight at the O-a-s-i-s...". It's so refreshing to hear how sensitive Nate is about his girlfriend's child. I wonder, does Nate still have sleep issues as an adult????

Anyway, ladies, today is Bears last day of preschool for the summer. I am a little bit frightened about the next few months with much more unstructured time. I have to put my thinking cap on. He's doing the local community cap for a few weeks in the mornings, but other than that, NO PLANS. Which usually means chaos. Thinking, thinking, thinking...


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## Bearsmama

Oh, and Maureen-Your experience with your client going through the sleep study got me thinking about something. It seems that when many of us with these challenging kids *DO* reach out for help, there are never any concrete answers to help. And I think what you said about your fear that he'll be DX with something but have nothing to offer this family in the way of *REAL* help is big for many of us. We've seen two psychologists and gotten evaluated by a therapist at a play therapy place. No one has given us anything we can use on a daily basis. The first guy was certain that the only way to help Bears or any child with the possibility of an attentional problem was with restraint. Well, that didn't work and it didn't jibe with our values.

I read something in a book called Between Parent and Child and it was an interview type thing between two child psychologists talking about how hard it is to parent even if you have all the tools people think you must have as a professional. They said that they and other parents often talk about "loving unconditionally" or "acceptance" or whatever, and that these issues are too LARGE to really make useful on a day-to-day basis with your child. And that we need "psychological small change" for the daily stuff. And I thought that was so right-on. Like, we all love our kids. We all want the best for them. And those of us with more challenging children feel very deeply when our kids are in pain. But give me the small change, the real ways I can help him on daily basis. Not the overreaching, huge things. They can't help me when he's trying to kick me in the face, or screaming at the top of his lungs. Tell me what I should do then.

That's all the brain dump for this morning, ladies.


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## Magella

Oh, am I ever sick of rain. It's been raining so much that there are now puddles in our yard and we're beginning to have some water seep into our basement, which rarely ever happens. And the worst part of having so many days of rain is the cabin fever. We're all going stir crazy.

Bearsmama, we actually moved all 3 of the kids to their own rooms/beds in one fell swoop. In addition to dd's night terrors, we were so crowded that dh and I were in pain and no one was sleeping well. Dd had been in her own room/bed at various times in the past, but the others (4.5 y.o. ds who also had said he'd sleep in his own room "when I'm five and a half or six." and 2.5 y.o. dd) had never slept anywhere but with us. What we did (and we didn't for a moment think it would actually work) was approach it with extreme confidence. We said "this is what we all need to be healthy, and we know you can do it. We'll help you so you're comfortable and feel safe." We told them we believed we'd all sleep better if we had more room (our own beds), and that if we all slept better we'd all feel better and be healthier. We decided on a Sunday morning, and that night we did it-and I got them body pillows that day to give them something to cuddle with since they were used to sleeping all cuddled up next to someone. We promised to make some changes to their rooms, and we did that within the week (they needed new area rugs for the wood floors b/c the cats we had ruined the old ones, ds wanted a canopy-one of those mosquito net things, dd used to have one-so he can sleep enclose, ds got glow in the dark star stickers for his wall). Dh and I both lay down with each child (taking turns) until they're relaxed and ready for us to go and ready to fall asleep-this is so important, and we have committed to staying until they're ready for us to leave (and since they now go to bed earlier, we don't feel as much in a rush to get bedtime over with and get downstairs to have our own time). They picked out music to listen to (ds has his own room, the girls share, and each room has a cd player). Oldest dd used lavender oil on her pillow and temples to help her relax when I leave the room. Ds likes a backrub and a story, oldest dd likes to do an "imagining" (guided visualization), little dd just needs to cuddle until she settles down. We reminded them that they could call us if they needed us, and we left the hall light on. From night one it just worked beautifully, which really surprised us.

Now, it's a work in progress because my son still comes into our room in the middle of the night most nights. The littlest one comes in around 5:30 or 6:00 most mornings, but some nights wakes earlier and needs a cuddle-I usually go lay down in her room when this happens b/c if ds comes into our room and she's there we're really uncomfortably crowded (we're down to one mattress in our room now). Oldest dd consistently sleeps all night in her bed (she has only once woken from a nightmare and needed to cuddle), and in the morning comes in for a few minutes of cuddling with dh after I get up and remind her it's her last chance (if I don't remind her or wake her for it, and dh gets up, dd totally loses it-tantrum time. It's so important to her to have that cuddle time). There were two nights last week that suddenly they were all asking when they could sleep with us again, saying they wanted to sleep with us, saying they missed sleeping with us-that was rough. We ended up reassuring ds that he can keep coming in when he wakes at night, but reminding him that we really need to have our own beds now to stay healthy. Oldest dd had such a sad two nights about it that we let her sleep with us (beginning in our bed without us) those two nights. But other than those two nights, they haven't complained and they have taken to it beautifully.

So that's what we did, and maybe reading that will be helpful to you and maybe it won't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
But give me the small change, the real ways I can help him on daily basis. Not the overreaching, huge things. They can't help me when he's trying to kick me in the face, or screaming at the top of his lungs. Tell me what I should do then.

Man, I can't tell you how many times I have thought this. But I've reached a point where I don't think there are any answers, not answers that someone else can give me. No one can tell me what to do in those moments-meaning, no one has _the_ right answer. And that brings me back to learning to live comfortably with uncertainty and imperfection, my daily task. The huge, overarching, nebulous, seemingly impractical thing that has been the one of the only real "answers" to help me in those nitty-gritty moments. Weird. I'm weird.


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## Bearsmama

Sledg-Yes, that was really, really helpful. And you know what the most helpful part was? Reading your words about how from the beginning you and DH were just really CONFIDENT about the change. That is HUGE. Really, I think that is a big part of our problem with Bears sometimes. It's like he's an animal, and can smell our indecision, our waffling.

Okay, ladies, two things we need some input on tonight: Dealing with anger (again, and always!), and ignoring the "bad" behavior. We are not good at ignoring the bad behavior. We have given some of his behaviors so much unneccessary attention that it is clear that is what he craves. Its like sometimes that's how he defines himself. For instance, tonight we were about to brush teeth and Bears has two toothbrushes to choose from. I said, "Which would you like X or Y?", and he chooses X. I smeared it with toothpaste, and then he freaks out that he really wants Y. So I smear the toothpaste back onto X. Then (and I'm not kidding) he says he wants Y again. At that point, I should have walked away, I know it. But I just sit there with him and feel my blood boil and then I get angrier and angrier and he gets snarkier and snarkier until we both explode. This is soooo stupid. So incredibly stupid for me to be getting angry about. But this is our life with Bears. Every little thing takes forever. And he gets emotional, angry, etc. This incident involved him hitting and kicking me. SOoooooo, my question is, HOW do we wipe this slate clean, so-to-speak, and start ignoring most of this little stuff and start focusing on the good?

Sounds so simple, but it's not easy. I'm sure this is a common problem with parents of non-challenging kids, but with Bears his ability to lock-in is unparalleled. Is the tactic to help change some of this behavior to just always walk away?From most everything?

Thanks, mamas.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Sledg-Yes, that was really, really helpful. And you know what the most helpful part was? Reading your words about how from the beginning you and DH were just really CONFIDENT about the change. That is HUGE. Really, I think that is a big part of our problem with Bears sometimes. It's like he's an animal, and can smell our indecision, our waffling.

Okay, ladies, two things we need some input on tonight: Dealing with anger (again, and always!), and ignoring the "bad" behavior. We are not good at ignoring the bad behavior. We have given some of his behaviors so much unneccessary attention that it is clear that is what he craves. Its like sometimes that's how he defines himself. For instance, tonight we were about to brush teeth and Bears has two toothbrushes to choose from. I said, "Which would you like X or Y?", and he chooses X. I smeared it with toothpaste, and then he freaks out that he really wants Y. So I smear the toothpaste back onto X. Then (and I'm not kidding) he says he wants Y again. At that point, I should have walked away, I know it. But I just sit there with him and feel my blood boil and then I get angrier and angrier and he gets snarkier and snarkier until we both explode. This is soooo stupid. So incredibly stupid for me to be getting angry about. But this is our life with Bears. Every little thing takes forever. And he gets emotional, angry, etc. This incident involved him hitting and kicking me. SOoooooo, my question is, HOW do we wipe this slate clean, so-to-speak, and start ignoring most of this little stuff and start focusing on the good?

Sounds so simple, but it's not easy. I'm sure this is a common problem with parents of non-challenging kids, but with Bears his ability to lock-in is unparalleled. Is the tactic to help change some of this behavior to just always walk away?From most everything?

Thanks, mamas.

G'mornin' all ... I was messing with the computer this morning (bookmarks got dumped!) and wandered over here for a minute to check in.

On the moving to their own beds ... I know my situation is a bit different with regards to the one I moved being my DD as Cole has always been in his own bed, but DD was 4 when she moved to her own. We, like sledg suggested, were just really confident in our approach to her that that was what we all needed at that time. Sure she came in our room once and a while but it was one of those things we never looked back on and she did fine. Now I throw this in there because I really believe that when it's truly time for something (a change, a step forward, whatever) it will go over much more smoothly whether you're dealing with a challenging child or not when you're confident that it's what needs to happen.

On ignoring bad behavior ... well, let me just preface this with the fact that I have a 10 y/o girl. LOL I've learned rather quickly how to un-engage in a struggle... she's quickly emerging as her own person and pick your battles is the name of the game. So that has helped me with Cole immensely. And yes, *I* do a LOT of walking away. I am to the point where I REFUSE to engage in a struggle over little things. And I generally say something, in a very unemotive voice, like "I'm going in X room now. When you're finished with whatever, you can come get me." or "This is no longer open for discussion." Surprisingly enough, the discussion one works the majority of the time! They can rant all they want but in my head when I've said that, it's really no longer open for discussion. I'm done. And *I* move on ... now they may stay hung up on it a while, but when I move on mentally, it removes all that anger that normally would've come out at them.

Ok, that's all I got right now ... more when I can!


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## Magella

On confidence: I am learning that this is so very important. Even when it's a situation where there is no solution that I can easily see, no "fix" at my fingertips, just being confident that we will resolve it does wonders. Confidence is like magic.







Recently I was looking back on some things that have gone so very smoothly for us that others around us struggle with, and on some things we have consistently struggled with and what I saw was the huge role confidence plays in things going smoothly (and the huge role a lack of confidence plays in many of our ongoing struggles). I do think kids know when we're waffling and floundering and undecided and feeling uncertain, and it makes everything worse/harder because they don't feel very secure with our waffling and floundering and indecision and uncertainty.

On ignoring bad behavior: this is something we're working on too. When and how to ignore it. One thing I have to say is that we finally just got rid of multiple toothbrushes and multiple toothpastes because it became more trouble than it was worth. Instead of just the problem of how to get a child to brush teeth, we also had the problem of deciding which tootbrush, which toothpaste, and which parent would do the brushing. Too many choices. And we got over needing to brush right this minute. Like many times lately on other issues, we just started saying "you know what? I am not going to fight with you about this. I'm not going to brush your teeth right now" and we'll either wait till morning (this has never happened-yet) or later (maybe 5 minutes later they'll be ready, maybe longer) or the child will suddenly express a strong desire to cooperate and brush teeth right then (and we'll do it).

Lately I've often found myself thinking most things aren't worth a big struggle. So more and more often I just say "I'm not going to fight about this, we just won't do it now." Dd wants a ponytail but won't stand still even after three reminders to do so and I'm getting frustrated? Not worth the fight, no ponytail now. Dd won't come to the table to eat breakfast? Not worth fighting, she'll come when she's ready and then we'll all be done eating ours and her food will be cold (and isn't as tasty reheated). Dd won't buckle up in the car? Fine, we just won't drive until she's buckled (this is tricky, though, with other kids who want to be driving to wherever we're headed). The key is to really be able to let this stuff go, to let the toothbrushing go for now, etc. And to be willing to endure the wrath that may follow, and to be able and willing to endure that wrath in a calm and neutral sort of manner.

Sometimes, a little understanding and just waiting is what's needed. Dd had a full-blown meltdown complete with throwing of objects on Saturday because she was going to a birthday party, but when my other two kids left with the grandparents Dd was torn and wanted to go with the grandparents also (did not matter to her at this point that we had planned to go the the grandparents' house immediately after the party). It's like her brain short-circuited with the indecision and torn feelings. I had no idea what to do, I knew she'd regret it if she didn't go to the party, I was concerned her friends feelings would be hurt, I didn't want dd to go to the party if she really didn't want to. I was extremely frustrated with her screaming and her tone/words toward me, and I was feeling rushed because this all began 15 minutes before the party was supposed to start. We literally just sat down and rode it out. I ignored the screaming, I tried to help her calm by letting her know I was not telling her she had to go to the party, I did my best to problem-solve in a really one-sided, talking-to-myself kind of way, and finally decided not to worry about resolving it quickly in order to get to the party on time if that's what she decided to do (and making her go to the party wasn't going to happen, she'd refuse to participate and cry and be miserable-if I could even get her there), and instead offered to rub her back to help her relax. In the end, we left our house 5 minutes past party-time and got to the party 15 minutes late. No one cared that she was late, she had fun, she was glad she went, and as per our original plan we went to join her siblings at the grandparents' house afterward.

Sometimes I have to let go of that urge to struggle over how she's expressing herself (let go of trying to stop the meltdowns, and let go of focusing on the aggression/yelling/tone-I get way too focused on this stuff) and instead focus on either solving the problem that led to the meltdown or eliminating the problem that led to the meltdown or letting go of all of it until the meltdown is over then revisit what needs to be revisited later on when she's calm.

But also, I'm learning to find ways of anticipating and preventing more situations in which dd is likely to behave in undesirable ways. This is easier said than done, because I'm not all that good at anticipating. And I'm not always good at thinking outside the box and I'm not always good at involving dd in finding solutions. And she really needs to be involved in finding solutions, I think this is a skill she needs to learn that will help her a lot. She gets so fixed on the one outcome (wait, that sounds familiar...), and that leads to so much trouble. She can't, once she's frustrated, see that there are other possibilities.

Okay, well, I have rambled on and on and I feel as though I've been completely incoherent and all over the place and if I had a point it's lost. Those are basically a bunch of the "things" that get me through the times of bad behavior. Which I'm nowadays loath to call "bad" because I know dd doesn't intend to be "bad." I cope much better when I'm aware that she's just trying to get her needs met, when I attribute positive intent.

And awhile back, while I'm thinking of it, someone mentioned kids sort of living up to their perceived roles-kids continuing to act out because that is what is expected. I think there's something to that, I think it's not all that uncommon for people to perceive their "role" in their family and live up to that. But I think that somehow that's avoidable to some extent, maybe. Though I can't begin to speculate as to how.


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## Bearsmama

Ladies-So happy to check in with you tonight and see such great words. And the one word that has come up so strongly in both posts (sledg & emblm) is: CONFIDENCE. This is a huge one for me. I'm a real waffler. I tend to live in this indecisive spot--and this was okay, I guess, before I had kids. Not great, of course, and something I've always worked on (confidence building). But it really only affected me. Now, my lack of confidence affects my kids, my family. I am trying desperately to "fake it to make it". Like, even if you really *don't* have the confidence, ya gotta act your way there.
Although, my very confident DH struggles with parenting decisions, too. So maybe this just affects everyone that's parenting. Hmmmm?

We are working on giving up the struggle with so much. Soooooo much. It's rough. B/c sometimes with Bears, if you give one more thing up, there's just nothing left. No rules, no nothing. Letting the children run amok. Which, believe me, is not something that doesn't happen around here. This is not a tight ship. But if he won't bathe, won't brush, refuses to go to sleep (up until 10 minutes ago Bears was sitting next to me on the couch at 10:!5 at night b/c he said he just didn't want to sleep), etc., etc., then my DH and I feel like, what the HECK are we doing here?

I am incredibly stressed out, mamas. I haven't been sleeping b/c the little one has been restless and uncomfortable at night (getting a tooth). My shoulder blades are aching and my neck is sore. I haven't been this stressed since my last corporate job, pre-kids. I am saying this b/c I think the stress of dealing with this child has finally caught up with me on all levels.

sledg-About avoiding the triggers. This is another tough one. The only thing with Bears that's predictable is that everything is UNPREDICTABLE. Certain situations that always prove difficult are sometimes miraculously okay. Other times, something he is always fine with leads to a meltdown. There's no focusing in on the trigger b/c most times we can't figure it out. I am feeling very stuck right now b/c Bears is done with preschool and we have a few weeks before he starts a morning camp program. We have little to no plans, and we are only 4 days in and I am freaking out. With Bears, if we stayed home all day and did nothing but hang out, things become very hairy in the afternoon. If we go out and do a lot, he could freak out, too.. I don't know how to balance our lives anymore. I just don't know. His intensity is often too much for me. Lately, I'm really feeling that it's just too darn much for one mama to handle. Yes, of course I realize that there are people out there dealing with physical illness, and much bigger behavioral issues with their children. But Bears, well, short of something really, really bad, is just more than I can handle.

I am working on the confidence, the letting go, the managing my anger, the going with the flow. But I am just so damn tired of working so hard on so much. Sorry to be Debbie Downer here tonight. I appreciate your posts, sledg & emblm. My DH and I just feel that we are all alone in this. It almost makes it harder with Bears b/c other people that are close to him and us primarily see this kind, sweet, funny, boy. And yeah, sometimes the sensitive boy. The one prone to meltdowns. But mommy and daddy get the brunt of his challenges. And it's just tooo darn much. Every day is a struggle to get through. Every. Single. Flippin. Day.

So, thanks for listening and reading this rant. I really appreciate having somewhere to go to let this all out. More coherent words as soon as I'm capable...


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
The only thing with Bears that's predictable is that everything is UNPREDICTABLE. Certain situations that always prove difficult are sometimes miraculously okay. Other times, something he is always fine with leads to a meltdown. There's no focusing in on the trigger b/c most times we can't figure it out.

I'm gonna say it. I've thought this for years, and I've never wanted to say it because it sounds so bad: living with my dd is similar to being in an abusive relationship in that I feel as though I am constantly on guard, walking on eggshells, not knowing what's going to set her off. And I say this having actually been in an abusive relationship in the past. There. I've said it. I'm terrible.







:














: It's so stressful. And I often realize at the end of the day that I haven't smiled much if at all, I haven't played, I haven't had fun. I'm just so tired. (Especially this week b/c for some reason my little ones have been up a lot at night the last few nights.) Triggers....we've found some. During her really crazy times, there's just no predicting her other than to say if it (whatever it is) doesn't go exactly her way (which she often doesn't/can't/won't articulate to us) she'll flip out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Yes, of course I realize that there are people out there dealing with physical illness, and much bigger behavioral issues with their children. But Bears, well, short of something really, really bad, is just more than I can handle.









You know why I feel like this is so very hard? It's because of this (that you said):

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
It almost makes it harder with Bears b/c other people that are close to him and us primarily see this kind, sweet, funny, boy. And yeah, sometimes the sensitive boy. The one prone to meltdowns. But mommy and daddy get the brunt of his challenges. And it's just tooo darn much. Every day is a struggle to get through. Every. Single. Flippin. Day.

My dd so much of the time, mostly for others, so very normal, so sweet, so caring and thoughtful and fun to be around. When she's calm, she can talk about her feelings and problem-solve and negotiate with her siblings like no 6 year old should be able to. She'll take care of her siblings, she'll play nicely, she'll share. She can sit with me and come up with solutions to problems we're all having. She can be so great when she's calm. It's crazy-making. It's crazy-making because then when she flips out and is completely irrational and doesn't (can't? won't?) even hear us when we're trying to help her and won't (can't??) do anything but scream and whatnot, we wonder-WTF???? Is she doing it on purpose, or is she incapable right now? There isn't very often a middle ground between wonderful and holy-crap-what-happened-she's-erupting. Sometimes there is, when she's in a "good" phase. And that is a luxury that is recent these last few months. I have found myself thinking that in a way, it would be easier if she were autistic or had some other unmistakeable disorder because then at least it would be clear (in a way) what we were up against. KWIM?

And even last night after the huge meltdown she had, after all my talking with dh about my concerns that we really need help b/c her behavior/lack of coping skills is not normal and his agreement, dh talked with her and came out saying "there's nothing wrong with her. She's got a lot of pent-up emotions, that's all." And I'm there thinking that this is great, I'm back to being the only person in her life who thinks that something is really off with her. The only person in her life so far who thinks that discipline (more, different, better) is not the answer. All because sometimes she is so freaking normal.





















:







: Denial ain't just a river...(Dh tries so hard with her, but he is where I was for a long time, waffling back and forth between "something's wrong" and "she's fine, we're doing something wrong.")Thank goodness I have you ladies so I know I'm not crazy. Unless you all are crazy too.









I hate transistions. Dd's last day of kindergarten is today, and all I can come up with to explain this past week's behavior is the end of school. And maybe that has nothing to do with it.

Two weeks to the neurologist. I've also got us on the waiting list for a consultation with either of the docs from the Center for Collaborative Problem Solving (Dr. Greene wrote _The Explosive Child_, and there's also his partner Dr. Ablon). Of course they're booking for the fall, and the other clinicians in our state who are versed in their method (which I think is the method that will help us live with dd best) are so far from us as to be completely impractical (not that we can afford ongoing work with a therapist, really, but we need something). In the meantime we'll see what the neurologist says and I'm hoping to hear back soon from the leader of a local support group for parents of explosive/inflexible/chronically frustrated kids. Kids with behavioral challenges. There's also a conference for parents and professionals nearby in October (about explosive kids, the collaborative problem solving). I don't know. We need something.

Next week we'll be on vacation in NH. For the first time I'm really dreading a week with dd. Normally vacation is wonderful and a break from her difficult behavior, it's like magic. But it's been so difficult dealing with her this week, I'm dreading it. Is vacation going to be fun? Or a week filled with struggle and meltdowns?


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## michelle1k

Sledg, please don't think I just want a pin a solution / name / tag / whatever on your dd, but have you looked into food sensitivities? I'm not an expert, and maybe this is totally off base for her, but ds (now 8) had these seemingly random, unpredictable emotional triggers (which sound a lot like your dd's) brought on by an overconsumption of wheat products. He can now tolerate a small amount of it, but when he was eating it every day, his moods would fluctuate like your dd's. Crazy meltdowns, anger, physical violence toward me, outbursts of hurricane-like proportions. And the worst was that I never knew to expect them. I could never prepare myself emotionally for quite what he dished out.

He has not ever tested positive in an allergy test for wheat but apparently the body reacts differently to allergens (creates histamines in the case of a true allergy whereas this is just a sensitivity). And this also is a kid who is deeply sensitive, vulnerable, feels the pain of the world and any and all injustice and can reason, negotiate, compromise and display deep caring and love when he is reasonable and calm.

I am just struck again by someone on this thread using words I have used - in your case, the emotional abuse thing. I have said it to my dh, often. I felt like I was living a nightmare and really, my life was put on hold for him. I could not go into certain situations, b/c I could not trust him, even at age 7 not to go to that dark place with others who had not seen it before or have known me / us for years. Heck, he was actually even too much for some of my long-time friends. I wanted so badly to be the kind of parent he needed me to be, but so often fell short of that ideal. Mostly because I knew I needed to be mindful and watchful of my emotions, "monkey-brain" thoughts and respond from that place of mindfulness with love and kindness to my own hurt before I could trust myself to respond to him. And so often, I just couldn't do it.









Things are better now. I still feel like we have somehow lost his little-boy years and I mourn for them. Often. We have lost so many potentially wonderful years. I think I have a long way to go before I can let go completely (isn't that terrible??) of all the hurt and pain of the last 7 years. There is some re-patterning that has to take place for me. Now that he is more on an even keel, emotionally speaking, I have to consciously (and often) remind myself that it's ok to drop my guard, ok to love with abandon again and smile, smile, smile at the kid. Go and hug him and tell him how much I love him. Believe it or not, a year ago it was hard to do this around him.


----------



## Magella

Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, thank you. I'm so glad (well, you know) to hear that I am not the only one to think of living with these problems as akin to living with emotional abuse. And I do mourn the time we've lost, even as we do have times we really enjoy each other.

About food sensitivites, we have looked into that but not specifically into wheat sensitivities. I actually toyed with the idea of an environmental pediatrician, but none of the ones I can find in our area are covered by our insurance and the office visits + lab work would cost way more than we can afford. So we decided to look into diet on our own as much as we can. Wheat I haven't eliminated yet b/c, frankly, it seems so overwhelming to change our diets that drastically (wheat of some form seems to be in everything!). Probably it's not that bad, and maybe it's bad of me not to try. Maybe we can do that this summer. Anyway, we know she's sensitive to food dyes, probably to preservatives, doesn't seem to be sensitive to dairy, seems to be sensitive to chocolate/caffeine.

Sometimes I just get so tired of trying to figure it out. I need one of those silent zen retreats.


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## michelle1k

I was saying to my dh (just yesterday!), that for my 40th birthday, I'd like to go on a silent retreat, just to be alone with my mind. But until then, I fantasize that I have a little card made up to ask people to respect my temporary vow of silence by not engaging me in conversation and only to ask necessary questions which require a "yes" nod or "no" shake of the head.









Really, I think we could all do with this kind of break from the emotional demands we deal with daily. Ah well...


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## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
.

I am just struck again by someone on this thread using words I have used - in your case, the emotional abuse thing. I have said it to my dh, often. I felt like I was living a nightmare and really, my life was put on hold for him. I could not go into certain situations, b/c I could not trust him, even at age 7 not to go to that dark place with others who had not seen it before or have known me / us for years. Heck, he was actually even too much for some of my long-time friends. I wanted so badly to be the kind of parent he needed me to be, but so often fell short of that ideal. Mostly because I knew I needed to be mindful and watchful of my emotions, "monkey-brain" thoughts and respond from that place of mindfulness with love and kindness to my own hurt before I could trust myself to respond to him. And so often, I just couldn't do it.









Things are better now. I still feel like we have somehow lost his little-boy years and I mourn for them. Often. We have lost so many potentially wonderful years. I think I have a long way to go before I can let go completely (isn't that terrible??) of all the hurt and pain of the last 7 years. There is some re-patterning that has to take place for me. Now that he is more on an even keel, emotionally speaking, I have to consciously (and often) remind myself that it's ok to drop my guard, ok to love with abandon again and smile, smile, smile at the kid. Go and hug him and tell him how much I love him. Believe it or not, a year ago it was hard to do this around him.









Not much time here, but Michelle, your post brought tears to my eyes. You spoke (wrote)my thoughts here. Your love for your son, the challenge, the falling short of the ideal, all of it. Thank you for this.

More to all later-sledg-


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## Magella

*sigh* I am having a blue day. I've been thinking and thinking about your post, Michelle. I want to rant/vent/whatever.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
I felt like I was living a nightmare and really, my life was put on hold for him. I could not go into certain situations, b/c I could not trust him, even at age 7 not to go to that dark place with others who had not seen it before or have known me / us for years. Heck, he was actually even too much for some of my long-time friends.

I cannot tell you how many situations I've avoided b/c of my fears about my dd's behavior. I'm shy anyway, but really have wanted to meet some people and make more friends and have more support. But I've skipped so many things because I never could be sure this wouldn't be the time dd flipped out and everyone would be shocked and horrified because we ruined the playgroup/meeting/whatever. Mostly she saves this for close family, but I never trusted that she wouldn't do it elsewhere. And I just have always been barely holding it together, and not strong enough to take that kind of public display. It's tough enough when it happens around the people who love us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
I wanted so badly to be the kind of parent he needed me to be, but so often fell short of that ideal. Mostly because I knew I needed to be mindful and watchful of my emotions, "monkey-brain" thoughts and respond from that place of mindfulness with love and kindness to my own hurt before I could trust myself to respond to him. And so often, I just couldn't do it.

















Yeah. Hard. So, so hard.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
Things are better now. I still feel like we have somehow lost his little-boy years and I mourn for them. Often. We have lost so many potentially wonderful years. I think I have a long way to go before I can let go completely (isn't that terrible??) of all the hurt and pain of the last 7 years. There is some re-patterning that has to take place for me. Now that he is more on an even keel, emotionally speaking, I have to consciously (and often) remind myself that it's ok to drop my guard, ok to love with abandon again and smile, smile, smile at the kid. Go and hug him and tell him how much I love him. Believe it or not, a year ago it was hard to do this around him.

















and I really, really hope someday we get where you are and stay there. Where it is safe, though maybe not easy, to drop my guard and not be so freaking worried and vigilant and tense all the time. Where we really can enjoy each other, and I don't have to dread so much.

You know, I think I may be having a harder time with my baby finishing kindergarten than she is. Where'd it all go? Why couldn't I enjoy it more? I want it back.


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## Bearsmama

Michelle-I am still re-reading your post b/c so much of what you say, actually ALL of it, really seems like I could have written it. I think I'm in some kind of mourning, really. Bears is only 4 1/2, and I feel that we've lost so much of his baby years. I really thought that I was just getting over his babyhood (which, quite frankly, was pretty nightmarish), and now I realize that things have not gotten better EVER. They've just gotten worse. I wish I could give to Bears what he needs. But I just can't. Nothing seems to touch that spot in him that's hurting, or in pain. Nothing. And this is how I felt when he was a baby. He cried inconsolably for months and months and months. And like now, no one really believed us until they were with us around dinner time when the "colic" would start (or whatever you want to call it). Then, they (friends, family), looked at us in utter horror and pity. It's like, people didn't believe us then, and I still feel unheard. I feel like I'm yelling out, like S.O.S! We're sinking! And people say, Oh, we had a hole in our boat one time. And I'm like, NO, this is the freakin' TITANIC over here. And we go down more and more with each passing day.

I think dealing with this high-needs baby, who turned into a spirited toddler and now a challenging child with potentially serious diagnoses, has finally taken its toll on me.

We have yet to see any light at the end of the tunnel we're currently in. Sometimes when things are bad I can see him slowly coming out of it. But right now there's no light. Nothing. Tonight and every night recently, there is a major freak out where we are actually giving him EXACTLY what he wants and he seems to be speaking a different language entirely. Or, we're speaking a different languard. Either way, we can't speak to each other. We are working on speaking to him as little as possible when he's melting down. And his meltdowns recently have consisted of pain-inflicting hits, kicks, to us and his little brother, following us when we walk away and pulling on clothes, arms, legs, etc. All the while screaming, yelling, spitting.
Things are not getting better, ladies.

We need some kind of help, but we don't know where to turn. The last psych we saw has an incredibly jam-packed schedule where we were on an on-call basis with appointments, and it also was WAY expensive, and we just couldn't afford it. My DH said tonight that he doesn't even think the last doc could help him. Like it seems deeper, more serious or something. I'm certain that the last person could give us some insight to get throught his time (if there is an end here). But I just don't know how to swing it.

It is so hard to see my boy in this amount of pain. It is clear that he is in deep pain. CLEAR as a bell. And I can't even touch it.

Thanks again for being here, ladies. Many hugs and support to all of you going through a hard time with these kids, too.


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## Bearsmama

Hi again, Mamas,

Here's a real question among all my ranting & raving: How does discipline work (or how HAS it worked) for those of you with these challenging kids that are now older? For instance, when Bears is kicking and screaming and hurting, we reiterate the rules, but really, there's no discipline that can be effective in those moments b/c he literally seems psychotic. Occasionally, spending a few minutes alone in his room thinking about his behavior helps. But it takes a village to get this consequence to work. Right now, there's nothing effective, nothing "natural" about consequences. Nothing. B/c when we're in the midst of these storms, we're just all trying to survive.

So, did you (do you?) forgo discipline in these moments when house rules, etc., have been majorly broken b/c things seem so far beyond discipline at that point???

This weekend there is a local air show that Bears has been talking about for a few weeks. It only happens once/year and Bears is OBSESSED with airplanes. His behavior has been so atrocious that on one hand I don't think we should reward these hellish weeks with something for Bears. And then on the other I think that he can't control his behavior-that is the issue. So should we penalize him, and not do anything fun b/c his literally is not in control of himself and can't be right now?

TIA.


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## michelle1k

You know, for us there wasn't one thing (or even a bunch of things) that could be relied upon to work every time (or often, or even regularly). We had to roll with the punches so to speak and take each incident as it came. I did punish physical hurting with time alone for him b/c we didn't feel safe or good about being with him.

I cut short many events / playdates / visits when I saw that he was getting himself into a frenzy where I couldn't connect with him anymore, he c/wouldn't look at me, couldn't hold still, was breathing fast, getting louder and more and more physical. These kind of tell-tale signs from him usually ended up with someone crying. And / or me crying, on the way home.

I left a playdate once after 5 minutes because he hit his only friend in the head with a wooden toy hammer. This was after driving 45 minutes to get there.

I left my best friend's recent Memorial Day bash (which she moved around to suit our family's schedule) after just 2 hours and with her having not yet served dessert b/c ds was getting to that point I described above. He was starting to lead a "pack" of 2 other boys and ganging up on a little boy 2 (or 3) years younger and I couldn't get him to change his behavior. Dh was making light of it, but it was clearly crossing over into bullying in my opinion. I had no other option, so I just left and he cried all the way home, but I feel very strongly about bullying / violence and without dh's support (he later agreed with me and apologized for not supporting me at that moment) I just couldn't deal with it any other way.

Two families in our larger community have repeatedly asked us to go camping with them. They see only ds's "nice" side at organized events and think he's a lovely kid. Well.... he is... but.... I decline every time, b/c I can't predict how ds will be with their younger kids and I can't stand any more humiliation / embarassment / sadness. It is usually no fun for either dh or I anyway, b/c in the past, we'd have to tag-team: one of us has to watch ds like a hawk while the other takes a breather and socializes. And the one socializing is usually feeling so guilty and can't really relax b/c he / she can hear how hard the other spouse is having it trying to deal with a crazed / unreasonable child.

I think, while ds has this incredibly soft, caring, emotive intuitive side (where does it go when he gets like this????????







: ), he is also insatiably curious about social dynamics and will manipulate and boss people around to the point of being cruel (kids mostly, but sometimes adults, especially those he feels a strong judgement from) to see what happens. The result has been that it has not been easy for him to form lasting friendships (or me, for that matter - not many people understand him or see that he is really a great kid). He has only two friends (one lives 45 minutes away and the other 3 hours away). Other children are initially attracted to the manic energy that radiates off of him when he's in that "space", but they do eventually become repelled by the fact that there is no "off" switch or by him hitting a level he had not yet reached before.

Now that he's off of wheat (at least 99%), there's less violence toward us, but there are still many, many emotional roller-coasters and still the horrible tantrums. The trick has been always not to engage my emotions and this still works now as he is *so* very skilled at drawing one or both of us out into a discussion. Which often escalates into a debate - which ends in tears and / or a tantrum. Often I will just not talk about an issue or when I hear him make "emotionally loaded" statements, I will just say quietly to myself: "he needs me to help him up the emotional ante - stay out of it, remain silent". And after a few minutes I may smile and say "I love you" or give him a hug. He will stew and fester and in all likelihood the storm will blow over without the two of us engaging in something I didn't wish to be a part of in the first place. I can usually go back later and talk about it with him, but if I do engage him and meet him in that emotional place at that moment I can feel us slipping over some invisible edge and it's never good on the other side.

When my mil was visiting last year (she lives in Africa and tries to come very year), she caught us during a really bad time. She was coming to celebrate their combined birthdays (hers and ds's are a day apart), and ds was getting over being sick. Well, I'm sure you can imagine how horrid the behavior was with the excitement of having grandma here for two weeks and "too much birthday". At one point she turned to me and said "You know, Michelle, I despair for him".









He is an extremely socially immature kid with a razor-sharp mind and the two are a very trying combination. But just when we thought we were never going to get through this with our relationship with him intact, a glimmer of hope appears here and there. He *is* learning to moderate his behavior and emotions. Just very, very slowly. Just yesterday, he said to me "Mommy, did you notice I don't fight with you so much anymore?" "Yessss?" I say. "Well," he continues, "I figured out it really isn't worth it."









Oh, I wanted to add that I've stopped taking away anything (events or special privileges) that he was looking forward to b/c the impact of this had such far-reaching consequences. He would feel even less loved, act out worse because of it, etc. Also, I suspect that it was so far removed from the original misdeed that he had a hard time relating the connection between the punishment and the action. And then there was also the fact that it often was a family event we had to cancel (or we had some part in it that we were looking forward to ourselves) and I think that's just way too much power for a little kid to have seeing his parents having to forego something he knew they'd enjoy b/c of his behavior. Much too interesting a social experiment for my kid.


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## emblmrgrl

Gosh so many things posted are on point for me right now. I've had a hellish existence the past 24 hrs! I should've taken my own advice and walked away yesterday, but noooo .... I had to engage in the struggle that presented itself. *sigh*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I still feel unheard. I feel like I'm yelling out, like S.O.S! We're sinking! And people say, Oh, we had a hole in our boat one time. And I'm like, NO, this is the freakin' TITANIC over here. And we go down more and more with each passing day.

This is good. This is exactly how I feel.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
It is so hard to see my boy in this amount of pain. It is clear that he is in deep pain. CLEAR as a bell. And I can't even touch it.

This too.

Yesterday we were attempting to get some things done to go swimming today and we just couldn't manage it because of Cole's behavior. So now the others are missing yet another thing because of him. Things escalated throughout the day and by last night we were both in tears, just yelling at each other. It was awful. And I could tell that it's as hard on him to be this way as it is for me to deal with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
He is an extremely socially immature kid with a razor-sharp mind and the two are a very trying combination.

Y'know, I got this combination as well!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
Oh, I wanted to add that I've stopped taking away anything (events or special privileges) that he was looking forward to b/c the impact of this had such far-reaching consequences. He would feel even less loved, act out worse because of it, etc.

This really speaks to me. As I just stated above, I've been taking things away and I've wondered/worried about the negative consequence of it. I think that it's making Cole feel the exact way I didn't want it to ... that he can't do anything right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
*Also, I suspect that it was so far removed from the original misdeed that he had a hard time relating the connection between the punishment and the action.* And then there was also the fact that it often was a family event we had to cancel (or we had some part in it that we were looking forward to ourselves) and I think that's just way too much power for a little kid to have seeing his parents having to forego something he knew they'd enjoy b/c of his behavior. Much too interesting a social experiment for my kid.

Another thing I've worried about. I don't think Cole is able to put those things together just yet.

I too have spent so much time avoiding situations, declining invitations, denying the other kids outings to avoid a problem. I haven't figured out any other way to handle it. Cole doesn't have many friends and that is hard on him because his siblings are so easy to get along with and have quite a few friends. And y'know, maybe if I had more help I could just go about our business a lot easier. It's just so hard to manage a toddler with a 6 y/o that acts like a toddler while allowing the other 6 y/o and 10 y/o to have some fun somewhere.

I dunno. I'm not even coherent this morning, I'm so spent ...


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Here's a real question among all my ranting & raving: How does discipline work (or how HAS it worked) for those of you with these challenging kids that are now older? For instance, when Bears is kicking and screaming and hurting, we reiterate the rules, but really, there's no discipline that can be effective in those moments b/c he literally seems psychotic.

Well, when dd goes psychotic there's no stopping her from being psychotic. She has to go through it. Best thing for us during a meltdown is to NOT verbally engage with her (which is harder than it would seem, it's easy to get sucked into responding verbally) and to keep everyone physically safe if she's being aggressive (dodge/block when she tries to hit us, protect siblings from being hit by getting in between her and them). Sometimes we end up just walking around, going about our business as best we can, while she follows shrieking because there is literally nothing else that won't make it worse and it's about the only way to cope. The other kids and I will just keep doing what we're doing and eventually she'll calm enough for me to hug her and talk to her. There is nothing that works during a meltdown, if working means stopping the meltdown or dd learning something while she's in that state.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
So, did you (do you?) forgo discipline in these moments when house rules, etc., have been majorly broken b/c things seem so far beyond discipline at that point???

One or two reminders (two is probably too many), the aforementioned waiting until she's calm tactics, then we have a talk _later_ when she is calm. I've learned that dd knows the rules, she gets it, it isn't a matter of her not knowing the rules and I don't think it's a matter of her not caring about the rules or just sort of wanting to be "bad" for some reason. For whatever reason, she seems to be unable to follow the rules when she's frustrated/angry/<insert difficult emotion here>. She gets so overcome by emotion, especially frustration, that she goes nuts-remember when Maureen talked about that sort of animal part of the brain that takes over when we're really angry, and we can't quite fully access our higher thinking skills and instead react in an aggressive way, sort of as instinctual self-preservation? This was in a discussion about anger and yelling. I think that's what happens to dd. Her fight-or-flight switch is easily flipped, and her higher-level thinking and planning skills fly the coop, and what we're left with is a screaming "animal" in self-defense mode. She can't hear us when she's like this, she can't learn. So we have to wait until she's calm, and we have to do what we can to keep her calm (easier said than done)-especially if we see signs that she's getting frustrated or we know something frustrating/she doesn't like is going to happen.

Of course, I know all this when all is calm, when I'm rested and centered. Too often it tends to fly right out of my brain exaclty when we most need me to remember it, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
This weekend there is a local air show that Bears has been talking about for a few weeks. It only happens once/year and Bears is OBSESSED with airplanes. His behavior has been so atrocious that on one hand I don't think we should reward these hellish weeks with something for Bears. And then on the other I think that he can't control his behavior-that is the issue. So should we penalize him, and not do anything fun b/c his literally is not in control of himself and can't be right now?

We try (I say try, b/c we're human and we do sometimes in fits of anger do it) not to punish. One, I think it's behaviorism 101 (not to mention my own childhood/teenage experiences, and my previous experiences with my dd) that punishment does not work to modify behavior long term. Two, IME punishment can send the wrong message, as in the day my dd hit and I sent her to time out and she said "I'm sorry! I didn't know I'd have to go to my room!" (not that she goes to her room willingly.) She was focused on "if I hit, I go to time out" not "hitting hurts people, so I shouldn't hit." Three, as Michelle said about her son, punishment seems to make things worse in the long run. Punishment makes her feel bad, which leads to more unpleasant behavior, and the cycle continues. And finally, knowing that it's so difficult for her to control her behavior, punishment just seems to not be the correct response-it doesn't address her lack of control, her lack of emotional modulation, her lack of flexibility in those moments.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
You know, for us there wasn't one thing (or even a bunch of things) that could be relied upon to work every time (or often, or even regularly). We had to roll with the punches so to speak and take each incident as it came.

Same here. We have a bunch of things that have worked at various times in the past, and which might work for preventing the next episode or nipping it in the bud but just as easily might not. I try to keep those sort of mentally handy and ready to go. Mostly each moment is it's own and we roll with it as best we can.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time.


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## Bearsmama

Michelle, Emblem, & Sledg-There's so much good stuff here in your posts. It is so refreshing (and sad, of course) to hear and read that your homes have the same issues with these kids. I can't reiterate this enough. I think one of the torturous parts of this stuff is the thinking, "Is this going on anywhere else?", "Are we the only ones having nights/days like this?". Thinking that the grass is always greener elsewhere. And many places it is, b/c as we know, these kids are unique. But being here on this thread makes me feel sooooooo less alone. Thank you.

I appreciate all the talk about discipline. We've always tried to adhere to GD. We try our hardest to talk our ways through most situations. We talk about feelings, how things hurt, what hurting feels like, etc. When Bears was little I didn't believe in saying the word, "No". I always tried to redirect. Now, it feels like so much of all of our good intentions have gone out the window. When he was younger and giving us a difficult time about something, I remember a friend being over and saying, "Have you tried time outs?". And when I said that they just don't work with Bears she looked at me like I was crazy. Unfortunately, we've tried just about everything at this point-short of spanking/hitting--which we refuse to do, of course. Just lately, we've been asking that he go to his room for 4 minutes and "think about his behavior" when he hits (this is after talking about how we don't hurt each other, hit, how hitting hurts, etc). And I realize the absurdity in this AS I'M DOING IT.

I have done so many things and said so many things that I regret. I have often times made my love seem conditional. And this is the LAST thing that I ever intended for my parenting. We are getting better at saying as little as possible when Bears is erupting. Or even about to. We're working on being even more of a team, going about our business while he's flipping out. Giving him love when it's all over. But we have so many regrets for not knowing it all right now. Or yesterday. Or for not learning fast enough. Or for being tired. Or grumpy. Or being at our wits' end all the time. Geesssssh. So many regrets.

You know what helps me? Two therapists I know named Ben & Jerry.







Unfortunately, I'm laughing b/c I can't even go THERE if I want to keep off the baby#2 weight. Bummer.


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## michelle1k

Just quickly, Bearsmama, when you brought up conditional love, I was reminded that I found much to sink my teeth into in "Unconditional Parenting" (Alfie Kohn, I think?). Some of it I knew already (putting it into practice was / is another story), but it reiterated how with children, certain actions / words can really make your love seem conditional. Especially sensitive kiddos.

But it is so very hard because you want them to "just be normal", not hurtful, whatever. It's just so _tiring_ to always guard your emotions and not show your extreme disappointment. I know I have made my love seem conditional sooo many times.







And ds has always had his radar set to "high" to pick up on any hint of negativity or even a slightly different tone toward him from dh and I and usually afterward, we could draw a clear parallel between this and the crazy behavior.

I see more and more that he is able to express coherently what is bugging him (feeling slighted / hurt / whatever) or he will openly display his overwhelming sadness (as opposed to just mindless raging) and this we can deal with better. Yesterday he volunteered that he feels jealous over us making and painting his sister's dollhouse for her birthday. Sometimes he asks me to read his journal - and I stand amazed at the depth of his conflicting emotions written there in rainbow sparkly ink. What has he been feeling all these years and could not express adequately? It dismays me that it has been buried under so many layers for so long.

There is so much love in this child - in the last few days he has spontaneously come over several times and hugged and kissed dd and I while we sat nursing. It feels like I'm getting to know a new person, someone who has been away for years and we've had a rather one-dimensional relationship with. I wish I'd had this forum when things were so rough 2, 3 or even 4 years ago. I may have weathered things better / differently. But I'm loving this new depth to our relationship and I do wish the same and more for every one of you brave mamas.


----------



## Bearsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*

There is so much love in this child - in the last few days he has spontaneously come over several times and hugged and kissed dd and I while we sat nursing. It feels like I'm getting to know a new person, someone who has been away for years and we've had a rather one-dimensional relationship with. I wish I'd had this forum when things were so rough 2, 3 or even 4 years ago. I may have weathered things better / differently. But I'm loving this new depth to our relationship and I do wish the same and more for every one of you brave mamas.

Michelle-I'm not sure if I've said it, but I sooooo appreciate your recent posts. And your wishes for all of us still in the trenches. I have the Alfie Kohn book, but I don't think I was (am) ready to more fully read it b/c I'm in one of those modes where I think if someone doesn't have the answers for me minute to minute then I have no time for it!







I feel just awful about the things I've said, even today, about some things that happened. I'm not a name-caller, but I do think that I scare him a bit with my words sometimes and I definitely make my love seem conditional at times. Ugh. It's an awful, awful cycle. And the amazing thing is that I have pure, mostly joyous thoughts/reactions to my little one. Bears brings out the worst in me. It's true.







You hit the nail on the head when you say that it's just so tiring. I'm just sooo darn tired all the time.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey wonderful mommas... I have been lurking. Not sure why I am speechless this week, that sure isn't like me. I think you are all talking about things I honestly don't remember. Oh, I know I was there- that I remember. But I it does feel so far away. And maybe that is what I have to offer. Nate and I know that he was crazy (oh- and as you can attest to, I went crazy,too) and I did terrible things... he did terrible things, I did terrible things, horrible things were said all around... and you know what? No one remembers them today. I think focusing on one day or one stupid thing that happened isn't going to work. If I were going to recommend a book to read- this is it. Go back to the beginning of this "book" and see how far you have all come. This book of ours is almost a year old and chocked full of love and wisdom and acceptance. I don't think there is a better work.

I am going off topic- two things. Nate is in love with a woman with a small child. She is 24 (he is 21) and although I haven't met her, I hear she is beautiful and very sweet. Of course I fear that she spanks and does CIO and doesn't believe in breastfeeding... weird things to worry about for my kids girlfriend. He is so happy right now and soooooo very normal.

Oh- and the other good news of the week is that my little sister just got a call that a birth mother has chosen them for adoption. Somewhere in Tampa a woman is in labor with my new neice/nephew. I am so happy for my sister. I also am aware of what an enormous sacrifice this woman is making for her child. Anyone that says putting your child up for adoption is an easy answer to an unplanned pregancy is a fool. So many people thought I should have given Nate up and for all the struggles, we were so meant to have each other.

Love to all of you in the trenches... I struggle with my 4 year old's emotions and then remember what real struggles are like and just laugh. Peace to all of you.

Maureen


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## Magella

Yesterday dh and I had this revelation, which of course we've had before, about dd's behavior and our behavior. I had the most wonderful day yesterday taking my three kids on a 3 hour shopping trip for vacation supplies. Before we left I thought it was sure to be a horrid day, dd was starting her usual bad-day yelling and snarking. I just plain ignored it, as if it weren't happening, and carried on talking to her as usual. (YK, when she was snarking about getting dressed I said "well, I have to do such and such, I'll meet you downstairs" and then when she snarked back "but I want you to brush my teeth!" I just said "okay, tell me when you're dressed and I'll brush them."-no asking for a nicer voice, no lecturing.) And then when she was dressed in her sundress and fancy shoes and tights I told her how beautiful she looked, and we left. We bought bathing suits (even for me, I tried them on with 3 kids in tow!), we went to another store to buy lots of supplies, we went to lunch, and we finished with a trip to the bookstore (my kids love to buy books, love to read and dd1 loves to do Sudoku). It was so much fun. And the entire rest of the day with dd was basically great (a couple of minor blips). This is what led to us realizing (again) what we as the parents here need to do.

We need to create the most calm, supportive atmosphere we can for dd. All the time. She knows our rules and expectations, and to here us lecture as we so often do and to have us sounding and looking so very angry (as we so often do) just leads to tension and to her feeling even worse. And this feeds the cycle of unpleasant behavior. When we manage to mostly talk to her about her behavior when she's calm, when we manage to remain calm enough ourselves to NOT get sucked into arguing with her or lecturing her and instead offer the clear, simple, single reminder, when we do not yell or let our voices sound very angry/exasperated/frustrated, when we're trying to smile and have fun with her, when we focus our attention (not even verbally, but inside ourselves) on the positive- when we do all this stuff that is so hard to do all the time, her behavior is better. Her tantrum-y episodes are less frequent. She's more cooperative. We all feel better. (for some reason, we do this for a day or awhile and then we forget and it all goes out the window. And it's not some magic cure for all our ills, but...I don't know, it just makes living with our challenges easier.)

It's very similar to what's said in Unconditional Parenting and Connection Parenting-we see that when we're very frustrated and lecturing and caught up in the power struggles, we're trying very hard to assert our power (b/c we think that's what we need for us to feel safe/secure/effective). What we forget is that we always have authority (which is different from power) by virtue of our connection with our kids. And the more we're connecting, the more willing to cooperate the kids are and the more well-behaved they are (as much as they are able to be). Less fighting, less yelling, less talking back, less hitting.

And this all ties into being able to accept that this is how things are at this moment, and in accepting we don't feel that we have to try to assert our power in order to feel safe/effective. That requires trusting, too, that our children will be okay and we'll be okay. And that is so very hard sometimes.

I have no idea of I've made any sense.

Oh, and my dd started one of her famous episodes with my MIL recently. You know what my MIL did? She said "That doesn't work with me" and turned around to keep doing what she was doing. Dd must have been flummoxed, b/c she just stopped and resumed her nice personality.







I'm going to try that sometime and see if that works for me.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Hey wonderful mommas... I have been lurking. Not sure why I am speechless this week, that sure isn't like me. I think you are all talking about things I honestly don't remember. Oh, I know I was there- that I remember. But I it does feel so far away. And maybe that is what I have to offer. Nate and I know that he was crazy (oh- and as you can attest to, I went crazy,too) and I did terrible things... he did terrible things, I did terrible things, horrible things were said all around... and you know what? No one remembers them today.

Thank you. It's hard to remember when you're in the middle of something that feels so awful that someday it will be long forgotten.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
Just checking in. Having a heck of a time over here. But you all know that already. Things seem to be getting worse, not better. Just worse. Tears every day (mostly mine), yelling, kicking, screaming, hitting, kicking (all his). Saturday after doing something that he'd been looking forward to, we got home and proceeded to throw such a grand mal fit that we had to lock him out of the house until he calmed down. Before you all call CPS on us, he was being destructive, and was grabbing plates, the cat dish (broken), etc., from inside the house when we tried to get him inside. When we told him that he needed to calm himself down enough to not break/hurt until we let him back in, he proceeded to start to break pots in my small herb garden. Actually, one of the herbs he picked out. Then, he grabbed a bird house that we made together and smashed that to bits. We handled it as well as we could, ducking and covering, not engaging, but checking in with him every few minutes with, "How can we help you?", etc. Still it went on for at least 40 minutes. Wandering around our back deck, looking for things to smash. No one tells you that even if you handle the storm better, it still sucks. And nothing gets better.

Maureen-If all has been forgotten-or at least most of it-what, do you think, matters in dealing with these kids? What will remain? Our love for him is deep and abiding. But it doesn't seem like he ever feels it. And even the love is not enough. Not strong enough, it seems, for this kid.

We are literally hanging on by a thread. We are just hoping that something changes, that he turns some kind of corner soon, b/c there's not much light right now. Not many glimmers. Just intensity, anger, etc. We don't have the $$$ to go back to the one psych we liked. It is really, really expensive. And frankly, right now, I have little faith in much. It seems like we're talking about an 18 year old with a drug problem here, not a 4 1/2 year old, doesn't it?

Thanks for listening, again. Much love. Please say a prayer to the universe for my boy and for us tonight.

Oh, I'm editing this to add that none of the parenting advice, no self-help stuff seems to really work. It's like logic and love up against a hurricane. And that's if you're in a really good mental space. Which is hard to get to when you're every day is just a struggle.


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## MsMoMpls

How to weather a storm.... well I think the best I can give you is that you have to only worry about keeping him safe, and doing as little damage to your stuff as possible. (Just like a hurricane.) I wouldn't talk to him at all. I think that if you really stick to the hurricane analogy- why would you talk to a hurricane? Just wait for it to be over. Then clean up. No talking. The reality is that you act like you have some power over the hurricane. Like maybe you can say something that makes it pass sooner or with less severity. That just doesn't seem to be true. There is no teaching moment, no discipline, absolutely nothing. The thing that made me craziest was "you can't let him get away with this." That was the voice in my head that I couldn't answer... it was also my mother, my neighbors, my sister... people who just had something to say but nothing to offer.

When Nate was 9, they transferred him to a level 4 school setting that included a padded time-out room. I was horrified. The weird thing was- Nate thought it was wonderful. He felt safe. He felt like somehow they could manage him like no other school had. He took one look at the time out room and the locked doors and the big secuity guys and he never had another behavior problem again. They couldn't figure out how he had gotten placed at that school when he was so easy to manage. He needed the external control because he had no internal control. Once he knew that he wasn't able to leave (that was his biggest issue in 3rd grade- he would just run out of the building or the classroom whenever he was upset.) he just had to stay and face it. Of course I couldn't replicate that at home, at home the thing that I used to do threaten to leave him. Now before you all call CPS... hahaha its too late. He was a great deal older than your kids. When he was 9-10 or so, I started taking time outs in my room with the door locked and he would cry at my door until he settled down. When that didn't work, I would get in my car and drive around for 10 minutes and then call him to see if he was ok for me to come home. I still feel bad about using his dependency on me against him but we seemed so locked into an abusive pattern that I knew I had to get me out of the equation. That seems to be the answer.

There is a part of this that is all about not being able to handle how much you love them. The intensity isn't there with anyone as much as it is with momma. He was hard on teachers and other family members, but not ever as bad as it was with me. So- I just think that the solution has to be backing away a bit. There is just too much emotional intensity in our love of them. Nate still knows I am here completely in his corner. He trusts me enormously. I passed some horrible test. No matter how horrible he was, it didn't stop me from coming back. I think thats the test, you have to go away so that you can come back. Just like dealing with seperation anxiety in babies... that permanence. So- back off when there is a storm and return when he is more himself.

I have to go...more later.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Thanks for another wise, BTDT, post.









Not much time here, but I have to say that it is enormously refreshing to read your words, and to know you are on the other side of this stuff. I think all parents wish they could see the future, but with Bears, I keep looking for the crystal ball that didn't come on the day of his birth! I just want to know that we'll allllllll be okay. That we'll still be the family that we are, the people we want to be, with all of our hearts in the same place.

Not engaging Bears is huge. I am a big Post-It note person, and I use them for self-encouragement around the house, particularly in the kitchen where we all spend a lot of time. Currently, there's one that simply says, "Survival & Recovery", another that says, "If frustrated, forgo the frustrating stuff" (like not struggling to wash his hair, or brush teeth, if we both feel that we've already lost our minds--letting the smaller stuff just go by the wayside until we're past some of this recent nasty stuff. And finally, there's one that says something about letting him have as much control as possible. I realized this week that I do a lot of things for him, although he's extremely independent compared to most kids. So, perhaps giving him the ability to do as much of the small stuff as possible, without micro-managing the situation, could take the edge off some of his frustrations.

Ahhh, the love. So deep. My DH says that parenting him is like a knife in his heart. It's just so painful, and so right there in your chest all the time. The love for my other child is deep, too, but lighter. It's hard to put words to it.

I have more things to say in response to your post, Maureen. But I gtg....
More when I can.
Much love to all of you for everything, especially you, Maureen. Pretty soon this thread will be 1 whole year old! Our baby's getting old, guys.


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## Bearsmama

Just had to check in tonight and let you know that my boy is coming out of his funk/fog/craziness. Over the past 2-3 days, I've seen my old Bears emerge. Now, by "old" I mean that I can connect with him again, love being around him again, etc., etc. He's still Bears, but it's like he woke up yesterday and something had lifted. Very weird. It's only been two days, but he's here...It's so good to see him, if YKWIM.









This was the worst phase of craziness thus far, and I would say that it lasted maybe 6 weeks. Whew! I am hoping this is a for-real turnaround. And not just two days. We'll see. The weirdest thing is that he seems like a better, stronger, lovelier, Bears. Maureen et all--Did any of you experience this with your challenging/special needs kids?

TIA. Love to you all tonight.


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## michelle1k

Yes, yes, YES! Absolutely! You know the funny thing was, I never noticed it till my friend pointed out these cycles to me. I must've been too overwhelmed







: to see the cyclical nature of the "funks" he used to get into. Also the bad spells lasted so long / was so intense, that it far overshadowed the good times.

Only a year (maybe even less) ago, I really *got* it enough to remind myself that there is light at the end of it. That it eases up eventually. Just like you know a 3-year old tantrum in a spirited kid is going to eventually let up and that it's "necessary" cos they're working through stuff.

But, just like Bears, when he came out of them, he was more himself, seemed to "grow" in his emotional quotient or something. Weird.


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## Justine

Bearsmama,

Am so relieved you're through the latest storm. Sounded like it was a bad one and my heart went out to you. I loved the recent quote mentioned on here 'when you're going through hell, keep going' - Winston Churchill? I think it was you who quoted it. This really applies doesn't it.

Lots of love & best wishes to you all
Justine - who would love to post more often but has a 25 month old who nurses more frequently than a 4mth old :-/


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## emblmrgrl

Just dropping by to post this ...









You have Taught Me
By Anne Maclellan

You have taught me patience
to rejoice in small gains which others take for granted.
You have taught me tolerance
to accept that your perspective is different
and deserves respect.
You have taught me courage
to fight for you when no one else will.
You have taught me endurance
to go on when I feel I can't any more.
You have taught me humility
to accept when I can't make things better
but can only be here for you.
You have taught me to love
at a deeper level than I ever thought possible.


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## Bearsmama

Justine-Thank you.







I really do love that quote. And like Michele said previously, I just have to get the hang of "hanging in" when the times are dark and scary. It takes me a looooong time to have some perspective on anything in my life, and I'm hoping I learn this sooner rather than later when dealing with Bears issues.

And Emblm-







Thank you soooo much for posting this. It brought tears to my eyes. Parenting is so darn hard, even in "good" phases, with less challenging kids, patience is tested, love is tested. But with these special kids, man, he teaches me every day. In more ways, I'm sure than I teach him. Thank you, thank you.


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## Magella

Hi all. Back from vacation, which was lovely despite some very frustrating moments.

Bearsmama, I'm hoping Bears is still coming out of that bad phase and entering a good one.

Maureen, I just cannot tell you how helpful your last post was.

Emblm, what a great poem! That totally captures what parenting my challenging kiddo is like.

YK, dh and I are feeling very burnt-out. This makes parenting our challenging one even harder. It makes being the kind of parents we want to be even harder. Every now and then we go through this burn-out. Which is different, somehow, from the "normal" challenges we face. We're really lacking patience and coping skills right now. And while usually we're a team such that when one of us gets frustrated and isn't coping well the other can step in to take over and make up for that, right now neither of us has the reserves to do that. So it's really kind of uber-bad here at times. When it's good, it's great. When it starts to go bad, it gets really bad in a hurry. So it isn't just our challenging kiddo who cycles, it's us too-from burn-out slowly to recovery and "even better" parenting and slowly back again. I think this burn-out is a big neon signal telling us that we haven't been taking care of ourselves enough. We ignore the little signs until the big one comes along. I'm learning that a huge key to surviving parenting (with all kids, but especially with challenging kids) is taking good care of ourselves.

So I hope you're all well. I'm off to start some laundry and rest a bit before I take the kids back outside to play.


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## Bearsmama

Welcome Home, sledg!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
YK, dh and I are feeling very burnt-out. This makes parenting our challenging one even harder. It makes being the kind of parents we want to be even harder. Every now and then we go through this burn-out. Which is different, somehow, from the "normal" challenges we face. We're really lacking patience and coping skills right now. And while usually we're a team such that when one of us gets frustrated and isn't coping well the other can step in to take over and make up for that, right now neither of us has the reserves to do that. So it's really kind of uber-bad here at times. When it's good, it's great. When it starts to go bad, it gets really bad in a hurry. So it isn't just our challenging kiddo who cycles, it's us too-from burn-out slowly to recovery and "even better" parenting and slowly back again. I think this burn-out is a big neon signal telling us that we haven't been taking care of ourselves enough. We ignore the little signs until the big one comes along. I'm learning that a huge key to surviving parenting (with all kids, but especially with challenging kids) is taking good care of ourselves.

Man, I'm sitting here nodding away, YES, YES, YES, at your words. No one ever told me pre-kids that to actually parent the way I *intended* I would need to have the time to take care of myself. And that there is NO TIME to take care of yourself when parenting-especially parenting a high-needs baby, who turns into a spirited toddler, who turns into a challenging child. When do we all have the chance to catch our breath? The burn out with us, sledg, is just HUGE. And sometimes we don't even know what we need to get re-charged. It's like we've forgotten what it is that truly rejuvenates us as a couple, and as individuals, b/c we're so darn exhausted all the time. And as you all know, it's not just physical exhaustion that needs to be addressed here, it's the mental, spiritual, bone-level exhaustion, too.

DH and I have been talking recently and wondering how our parenting choices have affected our burn-out, tiredness, lack of patience, etc. For instance, I've breast-fed both kids way beyond infancy (Bears weaned @ 2 years, 8 months, and I'm still nursing my 22 mo). Now, this is certainly not a long time compared to many here, I know. But it is way beyond the norm of most of my acquaintances and friends. Extended breastfeeding changes the dynamic in a family, IMHO. It just does. There's a level of connection that is so deep, and with it comes a layer of frustration that I don't think is present in the same way in all mother-child relationships. There's a personal limit/space issue that comes up (access to mommy's body), etc., that's just not there in every other mom-kid dynamic. I guess my point is that the way we have chosen to parent has affected the intensity level in our home. Ditto the co-sleeping. Which I can't even comment on right now b/c there's just too much to say. I hope you all know what I'm trying to say here.

The ultimate craziness is that despite all the chaos and tears and happiness and joy, despite ALL of it, my kids are growing up and so are yours! They are growing up and away from us every day.

More Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy to come...


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## Bearsmama

Ooooh, and I didn't even comment on all the other good points and thoughts in your post, sledg. About heeding the small warnings before you need teh S.O.S.! How we cycle as parents, too, not just our CKs (Challenging Kids).

More, more, more...


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## Threefold

Okay, I've stayed away fromt his thread for a long time because I keep hoping my ds will miraculously outgrow being a CK. Guess what? Not so much. *sigh*
Odd that I am signing on now (Bearsmama's kind post in my TAO thread prompted me to find this thread) as we are just leaving for a 2 week trip to visit my parents and I won't be around much. At least I'll be subscribed and can join in when we return.
As frustrating, demoralizing, and flat out exhausting as our days can be, I am gladto be my ds's mama because he has led me to stretch and grow in ways I would not have if he were an easy child to parent.
He is 5 1/2 years old, very smart and articulate, yet slow to take physical risks (riding a bike, swimming) and hates being told what to do







: yet really needs clear boundaries. Arrrrgghhh!
We also moved twice, had a daughter (now 23 months and still nursing, Bears!), gone through my dh being bedridden and angry due to severe sciatic pain, had my sister move in and out, all since he was 3 1/2. I think all of this plays a part in all of his challenging behaviors, since transitions are hard and he's had more than he can handle.
Can't wait to learn from the wise and courageous mamas here.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
No one ever told me pre-kids that to actually parent the way I *intended* I would need to have the time to take care of myself. And that there is NO TIME to take care of yourself when parenting-especially parenting a high-needs baby, who turns into a spirited toddler, who turns into a challenging child. When do we all have the chance to catch our breath?

No kidding! There is no time. Not enough, anyway. I think part of the problem is that in our modern society two lone people take on the huge responsibility that is family life (providing, parenting, surviving) that at some point in the past was shared amongst a tribe or extended family that lived together. So while we humans haven't changed in terms of what we and our young need, the way we live has. And while that isn't completely bad, it isn't all that healthy either. We're doing too much, with too little support/help.

So the trick is, I guess, to figure out a way to care for ourselves given the circumstances. But sometimes it seems impossible. For instance, I know I really need exercise-more than I get out walking with kids in tow, can't go fast enough that way (though, honestly I'm so desperately in need of exercise that if we're going even slightly uphill I can get winded at a slow pace). But when am I going to fit in exercise sans kids? I might (might) be able to drag myself out of bed an hour earlier, but then the two year old (who by that time of morning is usually back in our bed) will wake screaming b/c I'm getting up making it very hard to leave or screaming b/c I'm already gone (and that could continue until I return, making for a very cranky daddy). I have no sitters at my disposal for a regular daytime exercise, and even if I could join the local Y none of my kids (NONE) would be willing to go into the childcare room for a half hour or hour while I exercise. Nighttime is out partly b/c dh gets home so late, partly b/c the kids still won't go to sleep without me to cuddle (so I can't leave before they're settled in for sleep, which is too late for exercise IMO), and partly b/c I'm so exhausted by the time dinner rolls around. Exercise videos during the day inside the house? Maybe.

Lost my train of thought here. What I just said is related to what you said about parenting choices/style affecting the intensity level but I can't quite articulate how at this moment. So I'll just continue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I guess my point is that the way we have chosen to parent has affected the intensity level in our home. Ditto the co-sleeping. Which I can't even comment on right now b/c there's just too much to say. I hope you all know what I'm trying to say here.

I think IKWYM. For instance, cosleeping: well, I realized last night after being woken for the third time by a child who was scared and wanted to come in my now very small bed that I haven't slept more than about 3 hours at a stretch in nearly 7 years. I realize that some people get so much sleep sharing a bed, but I never have. I couldn't sleep through the nighttime nursing. I couldn't sleep through being crowded to the point of being in pain, or the kid who yells and kicks in her sleep. And then there were the times I woke to a baby semi-choking on spit-up, or a baby about to fall out of bed, or a child's foot creeping into where no child's foot belongs. I also agree with what you said about the level of connection being so deep as to produce a frustration (and despair at times) that is just...more. And the physical space issues....between the nursing and the cosleeping and the just sheer amount of physical contact and availability, it just gets really frustrating to almost feel like my body isn't really mine. Everyone wants it, everyone needs something from my body, everyone needs to be touching it all the time. It gets to the point where I feel this way even about dh, not just the kids. I don't get my body to myself enough. Sometimes I just want some space, to not be touched. Now don't get me wrong, I loved nursing. I loved cosleeping. I still love cuddling with my kids once they've come into our room in the night. I love, love, love being a mother to my kids. I love, love, love that my challenging child is my child. I wouldn't trade her for anything. It's just so exhausting. It's exhausting in a way that I never in a million years would have expected it to be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
The ultimate craziness is that despite all the chaos and tears and happiness and joy, despite ALL of it, my kids are growing up and so are yours! They are growing up and away from us every day.









And they're growing up beautifully despite the challenges they face within themselves and from us and from the world. They keep becoming more beautiful and healthy and loving and intelligent and articulate.

So we had some slightly bad news while we were away, and that was that the neurologist cancelled the appointment we were supposed to have today b/c he wouldn't be in the office today. So we rescheduled for September (apparently dd's symptoms are not urgent enough to warrant rushing us in even though they were the ones to cancel). It's annoying, but really it's not so urgent that we get there right now much as I might be really itching for it. We've waited this long, a few more weeks isn't a big deal. I will be seriously angry if they cancel again, though.

dalai mama, it sure sounds like your family has been through so much. I have said for a long time now, as you said, that if it weren't for my challenging daughter I wouldn't have grown as much as I have. If all my kids were as easy as my other two have so far been, I don't think I'd have grown nearly so much. Parenting my challenging daughter has led me to question and examine literally everything in my life. It has been, and will undoubtedly continue to be, and amazing journey. I hope you have a great trip.


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## Bearsmama

dalai-Many







and a huge welcome to this wonderful thread. And I'm not just saying that b/c I started the darn thing!







I have more to say, but not much time. I think you know your kid when you see him/her-- and if you are HERE, in this spot, I think it's for a good reason. Come on in, the water's just fine... and better with others sharing it with you.

Sledg-As always, much to say. Just wanted to give you a quick







. That's such a disappointment that the long-awaited appointment has been cancelled. More when I can...


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## Magella

Thank you Bearsmama. It really was such a disappointment. I cried. Then I felt like an idiot for crying. Ah, well. I've let it go now. Though the huge disappointment I felt made me realize a lot about how burned-out I've been feeling, and about something else I can't actually put into words (so much about life with my CK can't be put into words). In a way it was a blessing, a wake-up call of sorts.

Gotta run.


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## Fiddlemom

Whoa!!! I could have written your early posts Bearsmama a few years back. We are out of the woods with the horribly all-day-long defiant-behavior-while-caring-for-a-baby situation but of course the defiance remains. DSs are now almost 5.5 and 3.5. I hardly ever lose my temper right now--partly kids changing, partly me changing. But I remember how horrible that whole long time was at moments (like, several moments of each day)--shame, guilt, remorse....ugh. The endless parenting pow-wows. Yes!

When I started to realize that a big part of losing my temper with my older child was anger at MY older brother, feelings that had been hanging around since childhood, that was as real eye-opener. When my older son would start taking his frustrations out on the younger, I felt enormously triggered. Whoa. Like I always say: if you don't want to meet your dark side, don't get married, and _definitely_ don't have kids!

I really appreciate what I've read so far. I'll look forward to catching up on all the posts in the next 10 years or so







Nice to see we're not alone out here being all isolated and feeling like we're the only ones going through this sort of horrible parenting miasma (with, of course the most beautiful, incredible, maddening little people in the world).

(small disclaimer: my memory is SO bad, it's entirely possible that I've been overjoyed about finding this thread once before.)


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## emblmrgrl

Welcome, dalai_mama & Fiddlemom!

Y'know, I've been in the house so much this summer that I decided last week that I didn't care anymore what happened while we were out, or on the way out, screw it-I was going! And we've had fights, meltdowns, people staring, odd situations, and lots of laughs this past week. And sledg-to talk about exercise, I've managed three actual days of jogging ... with all four kids!!! We've found two fabulous locations where I can jog ... one in the county next door to us where they have a track around their soccer field so the kids can play ball while I run with the little one in the jogging stroller or in our town, our walking track has a playground near a portion of it that the kids can use and I just run back and forth on the part of the track that is in view. Cole has even been running with me two of those days and it does wonders for getting out some energy. We've also found a nature trail at one of the parks to use (talk about a work out). So I've done really well at getting the exercise thrown in to my days lately. I think we all feel better for it.

But beyond that, we're just surviving! Dreading first grade coming up and all the changes that will come with it... new class, new friends, new teacher, same old BS. LOL!

Hope everyone is well ...


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## Magella

Jennifer, that's awesome that you've found a way to exercise with all the kids. I am not dreading first grade yet. I will dread it, but not now. I will dread it b/c of the havoc it will wreak on our home life, and b/c I will miss my sweet dd. Of course, half the time she's right here with me I'm missing her b/c of her behavior and my lack of ability to connect with her when she's in that state. So right now I'm dreading tomorrow morning. Today was difficult. Not terrible, but difficult. Maybe tomorrow will be better. I was informed that I have not been spending enough time with her. Really, it's that I haven't been doing the right kinds of things with her, even though she's been choosing to do all these other things. *sigh* I'll never get it right.


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## Bearsmama

Grrrrrrrr....







: I just wrote this huge post, welcoming Fiddle, commiserating with Emblm about exercise, and giving sledg major hugs and it got lost somewhere, out here in Mothering land...anyway, too tired to re-post. Know that you all have me thinking again tonight.


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## Threefold

We're at my parents' house for the next week and a half and the behaviors are no less challenging from my ds. Last year when we were here, he was easy. People even commented on how sweet my children were. I was hoping the same for this year, but I guess not.








So far, my ds has had his usual, "I'm not going to leave the house tantrums", which occur no matter where we are going (grocery, pool, zoo, the library, a place he was begging to go hours earlier, you name it. . .), and got mad at Grandpa b/c Grandpa didn't put his shoes on (not that my ds isn't perfectly capable of putting his own shoes on, he just didn't want to) in the car on the way into a restaurant, so he took a pen and ruined about 8 styrofoam cups my mom had in the back of her car left over from summer camp, making a huge mess, AND, AND, AND, *he drew on the inside of the car*







:
emblemrgrl and sledg, I am disheartned to hear that you are dreading school. Ds begins K this fall and we are so hopeful that it will help things. He does so well with predictable structure, which doesn't happen at home







b/c dh of dh's unpredictable work hours. Our school is Waldorf, so they are nothing if not routine and he will still be going to his preschool 3 days per week in the afternoons while I am teaching. (I am changing schools and will be job sharing an upper grade position at his school.) So, yes, we have still more transitions and changes to come, but hopefully once the dust settles alll will be groovy.
Thanks for the warm welcomes. It helps to have a community like this.


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## Threefold

We're at my parents' house for the next week and a half and the behaviors are no less challenging from my ds. Last year when we were here, he was easy. People even commented on how sweet my children were. I was hoping the same for this year, but I guess not.








So far, my ds has had his usual, "I'm not going to leave the house tantrums", which occur no matter where we are going (grocery, pool, zoo, the library, a place he was begging to go hours earlier, you name it. . .), and got mad at Grandpa b/c Grandpa didn't put his shoes on (not that my ds isn't perfectly capable of putting his own shoes on, he just didn't want to) in the car on the way into a restaurant, so he took a pen and ruined about 8 styrofoam cups my mom had in the back of her car left over from summer camp, making a huge mess, AND, AND, AND, *he drew on the inside of the car*







:
emblemrgrl and sledg, I am disheartned to hear that you are dreading school. Ds begins K this fall and we are so hopeful that it will help things. He does so well with predictable structure, which doesn't happen at home







b/c dh of dh's unpredictable work hours. Our school is Waldorf, so they are nothing if not routine and he will still be going to his preschool 3 days per week in the afternoons while I am teaching. (I am changing schools and will be job sharing an upper grade position at his school.) So, yes, we have still more transitions and changes to come, but hopefully once the dust settles alll will be groovy.
Thanks for the warm welcomes. It helps to have a community like this.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, thanks for the hugs.









dalai mama, I'm sorry to hear your trip is not going as well as you'd hoped. I am also sorry to have left you feeling disheartened because some of us are dreading school. It would have been more accurate to explain that I dread some things about school, but that my dd also loves school and thrives at school (apart from a few challenges related to separation in the beginning and after the holiday vacation that she seems to have gotten past rather well). She exhibits NONE of her challenging behaviors at school. The structure of getting up at the same time every day, and knowing she's going to dress, then eat, then go to school, then have the routine of school does mean our mornings flow more smoothly. Her decompression after school is difficult. Everything she holds in all day at school comes out as soon as she's home, and it's hard on everyone. And while I'm hoping her separation difficulties aren't as bad this coming year, she did have some very difficult periods of time wrt separation from me-two months after school started her first difficult period began, and then again after the holiday vacation it was difficult for awhile, and then during the last few weeks of school there were some rough days. I do have to say that as much as I miss dd while she's at school, it's also really good in a way to have a daily break from the intensity of parenting her. And it's good to see her so successful (not just academically, but socially and emotionally and behaviorally) in that environment, and it's good for her to feel so good about herself and her accomplishments. Though I have to say also that I am concerned that she's sort of only coping on the surface at school, holding herself together by sheer will and stuffing any frustration-and maybe that's why she has to fall apart the moment she gets home. School is a double-edged sword for us. But so far the good seems to outweigh the bad.

Have I told you all she's reading fluently? It's so cool. She loves to read everything-labels, books, signs. She's constantly reading to me. And it just thrills her! She can't get enough. And she's constantly writing too, mostly stories.

It continues to get weirder that this child who can do math, who reads so well, who is so creative, who can remember the strangest things from long ago, who is so articulate and has such a great vocabulary still so often can barely express her feelings (or anything) in words when upset and still so often resorts to the shrieking and wailing and throwing and hitting (less often hitting now, but any hitting is too much). The older she gets, the odder it seems. But I do have to admit that overall (when you look at the really big picture) she seems to be slowly improving in that area.

So now that my morning coffee time (yes, I do tell my kids I have to drink the nectar of life before I play b/c I really need it to function) is over it's time to read to my kids. They have been dying to read (though they're the ones choosing to play outside in the kiddie pool all day) so we're going to finish the Magic Tree House book we started yesterday. Do you read these? I love these books, and so do my kids (well, the littlest one loses interest quickly).

Have a great day! Later my kids all go to grandma's for several hours. I think I'll do my errand (which is a fun one) then clean up, get a little exercise and read.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Of course, half the time she's right here with me I'm missing her b/c of her behavior and my lack of ability to connect with her when she's in that state.

Oh, don't I know that feeling!

Clarifying my dread of school ... school is hard for us, he & I, but in different ways. Cole is a handful even at school b/c he cannot conform easily to the expectations. He has trouble sitting still and quietly while waiting on others to finish their work. He loves being there, he is quite smart and is ahead of most of his class. He earned the exceptional reader award for the year in his K class. So academically he needs more challanges which I think contributes to his cycle of boredom/acting out/consequence. But I have gotten no where with his teachers & principal past "he needs to learn to behave." He himself is looking quite forward to going to first grade and seeing his friends again. Although I do worry that some of the other kids are put off by him and his energy level ... of course it could be that we don't attend the correct church (read:none) in our town, too. So we miss lots of activities that the other kids bond over.

My issues though revolve around watching him struggle with his behavior for his teachers. Seeing the disappointment in his face when he just couldn't get it right. Knowing that we're about to embark on another long year, a new teacher that may not understand him OR me and my ways ... classmates that may still be put off by him & his energy. Will this year be the one that helps or hurts him?? It's all such a guessing game at this point and with only about 4 weeks before it's here, the dread has arrived. How big of a fight is it gonna be when I tell the teacher I don't want his recess taken away for acting up?? Which is actually something I'd like to get opinions on from you all ... what do you feel about that practice? It's a tough one for me because although I know teachers need to feel they have some leverage, for a kid like Cole taking that recess away for something not recess related is just making matters worse, IMO. I dunno ... lots of things going on in my head with regards to this subject.


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## WuWei

You may see your child in this: http://www.raisingsmallsouls.com/wp-...9/aschool.html

I found this poignant and insightful.

Pat


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## Magella

Aww, Pat. Now I'm crying here.







:


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## Fiddlemom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
You may see your child in this: http://www.raisingsmallsouls.com/wp-...9/aschool.html

I found this poignant and insightful.

Pat

Wow, this is great and right to the point. (thanks for the welcomes....still have about 44 pp of reading on here to catch up on!)


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## Mommy&Will

Hi all.

I'm mostly a lurker that drops by every once in awhile. Reading this thread always helps me. But today I have to talk. I need someone to listen.

Today was terrible. I'm feeling sick to my stomach at what I did and I don't expect anyone to cut me any slack but I hope not to get hanged either.

The circumstances don't matter.

I grabbed ds (age 4) by his hair today. Basically used his hair to pull him toward me.










I'm beating myself up inside right now, and I'm blubbering all over these computer keys, and I don't see the need to spew any more of it onto this page. I know it was wrong. No matter what he did (and it was one freaking exhausting day), I should not have done that. His long beautiful blonde hair that he loves so much and that I love so much. It happened in a split second and as soon as I did it I had this flood of memories come back to me at a time my dad grabbed me around the neck when I was a kid. It still sits with me today. He did it ONCE. Now, I don't hold any grudges for it, I was about 10 and I know I really peeved him off. But I have never forgotten it. It really frightened me. My DS is younger. And all I think of is that I am suppose to be his Ultimate Safe Place.

I don't want to sit in a state of self-depracation (though I do it SO well!) and pity. But this can never happen again. Every day, though, I find myself getting more and more angry, more and more desperate to control. I've become a yeller. I am being the parent I DO NOT WANT TO BE. DH and I find ourselves being these Authority Figures and threatening all the time. Its so chaotic here. And I am planning on Waldorf homeschooling. Uh, not lookin' Waldorf in this home right now.

I read the books. I know how I am suppose to respond. But then at the moment-of-truth, splat. I fail. Ok, that is enough - I am not going down that pity party road again.

Well, I'm typing this because I just had to get it out. I am going to post and then peruse this thread for continued inspiration.







:


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## MsMoMpls

Oh darling... please forgive and try like all of us to do better tomorrow. All children push our buttons, and all of us have less than our best days. The larger fabric of our relationship with our children is not ruined by one errant thread.

I hit mine today... really the first time. Joey is 4. I was driving 6 hours home from my mom's alone with three kids and the fighting just got to me. I smacked his hand. And boy was he shocked.

That isn't that weird... I lose it every once and a while... although I am a zen mamma saint in my 40's compared to my early mom years.

The part that I am struggling with is that I just had rough email bash-out with a "natural mothering" group that seems to strongly support spanking and boy did I puff myself up about my gentle, peaceful, nonviolent parenting.

Is it better that I swear I never hit, when in fact occasionally I do or is it better to say I think it is ok to use violence rarely as circumstances dictate? Would it be more honest to say that I believe that an occasional smack is good parenting? I mean I kind of told Joey it was both of our fault... of course I know how stupid I say saying I hit you because you aren't supposed to hit Zach.

All I can say is that my mother hardly ever hit me and supports my not spanking but she also did get me to see that I set the bar awfully low with them... one might even say permissive. Perhaps this is due to my awful history with Nate or my own "Oh, she's such a good girl" sh*t.

Boy am I rabling.

Welcome lurkers and new mommas. This thread is a Godsend and some of the best parenting advice on the planet... Welcome all.

Maureen


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## WuWei

Ok, I am missing the search feature because Sledg has an appropriate thread about "Yelling" in the GD forum which discusses Self-care as the precursor (and prerequisite) to being a calm and centered mama. It seems so obvious, but so difficult. As a mama on another list I'm on posted, we need to analyze the *patterns* of losing it to see what were our underlying needs and how can we meet those proactively? To keep doing the same action (self-neglect) and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity, they say.

Not to say that having ONE child doesn't put me on the border of insanity regularly.







: But, recognizing my hot buttons and working to address those from a position of awareness and choice of alternative reactions is key for me. It helps me to have _practiced_ reactions so that my initial re-action is to stop myself to consider 'what was I going to do?' instead of automatically acting on the habituated voice in my head (my mother's "Listen to me young lady, I am talking to you! Didn't you hear me?! I TOLD you to do blah, blah, blah.) By practicing 'I want to help, what do you need? I need xyz. How can we work this out?' type interactions these alternative *relational* interactions become closer to the surface, even when I am this close to YELLING!

My practice does NOT make perfect however. And I, too, am humbled by reality as fast as I post about 'what to do instead', lol. <sigh> (holding my breath and knocking on wood!)

I try to remember that "Children teach us what we most need to learn". Our son is my own Zen master. He continues to show me exactly what I need to learn. Daily, sometimes hourly, he provokes me to practice!!

Pat


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## Bearsmama

Mommy&Will-Mama, just many, many







to you tonight. Just keep reading here, keep checking in, you will realize you are not alone. And you will get inspired & comforted by the mama wisdom here.







I'm happy you found this spot.

I have this magnet on my fridge that says: Courage does not always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow".

Maureen-







to you tonight. I'm sorry you had such a hard time today. I really like this: The larger fabric of our relationship with our children is not ruined by one errant thread.

Humility, non-judgment, etc., these seem to be the big lessons that I keep learning over and over and over again. I guess I must need to learn these BIGTIME. And I think I need to apply these lessons to my biggest kid: ME!









You know, I feel very strongly about a few things still-I am a strong breastfeeding advocate, for one. But literally short of abuse, I really have mostly compassion for every mama and dad. Every single one of us.

And scuba-Another great post. Self-care is key, I think. But like you elaborate on, sometimes, our reactions seem to come out of nowhere. Even a well-rested, well-intentioned mama can lash out and not know where in the heck it's coming from. I am realizing that maximizing the good times, doing what I do well more and more and more, really helps, if that makes any sense. Maximizing the good and fun, minimizing the anger/not-so-great moments. That's all I can do, really. Being aware of it is key. Which really does help lesson some of the crazy moments, at least sometimes.

Man, I just keep going back to what Maureen said at the top of her post about the fabric of our relationship with our kids. That has helped me tremendously tonight. And I'm hoping it's helping all of you tonight, too.


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## tiffani

Hi all,
About 6 months ago I was lurking here, in tears, of course, over the vast difficulty involved in raising my little guy. I read a blurb written by you, Bearsmama, about how our children are sent to us to teach us a particular life lesson, and our job was to be open to receiving and learning it. Around that same time, I read Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting", and re-read "Hold on To Your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld.

The lesson I've learned (well, one of them) is that parenting challenging children isn't about the minute-by-minute strategies for discipline, but rather, seeing the big picture, and how our attitudes about our children and our own childhoods come into play in creating this disfunction. I'm certainly not claiming to know whether or not any of the children described here have "actual mental health issues" but as a mother who has asked for referrals for professional help on more than one occasion, I know the fear, and the feeling of *knowing* that something isn't right. Sometimes, though, I think it seems easier to accept a diagnosis and then manage a condition, than to just recognize where we have failed as parents. I see so many people get down on themselves, blame themselves for their kid's challenges, and I don't think that's helpful. BUT! For us, recognizing how we had been screwing up (or, more accurately, not parenting our extremely emotionally sensitive kid in a way that was good for him) was the first step in solving the problem.

After reading Unconditional Parenting, I cried and cried, raged (silently, of course) at my parents for parenting me the way they did, forgave them, and forgave myself. Then I totally changed my attitude about trying to control my kids, and immersed myself fully in HELPING them get through life, minute by minute. This was best acheived by not worrying AT ALL about mental health issues -- I decided that my maddeningly quirky 4 year old just needed to know that I was on his side, and I hadn't conveyed that to him well enough. We've never done punishments at all, but he HATES feeling like anyone is at all disappointed in him, and often the tactic is to push the envelope further to convince himself that he had done it intentionally and seal the deal, so to speak. He also had all kinds of rituals we had to go through every single day, and the more we tried to control them, the more embedded they became. It was hard to know when to just go along with something and when we were reinforcing his belief that a particular ritual was necessary. He'd lose it over a friend not handing him something the right way -- 20 times a day we'd have to "start over" and redo getting out of the car, etc. I think this was his way of exerting control, testing how far he could go before I cracked (and I've cracked a couple of times and swatted his bum, which breaks all of our hearts, of course).

Anyway, Gordon Neufeld (Hold on to your kids) has been monumental in helping me to see that ALL of this was a result of the breakdown of our relationship. I saw him speak at the BC homeschoolers convention, and one thing he said that really resonated with me was something to the effect of "we have a generation of little ducks leading their mama duck around, when little ducks NEED to have a mama duck to follow." Basically, that lack of confidence that you mentioned earlier is so destructive to your role as a parent, and kids sense that and flounder. It really strikes me when I hear many of you feeling worried about your kids having time off from school -- relax!! have fun!! just go out and do silly, crazy things with your kids, and if they have a meltdown, who cares? You can't skip life because you *might* have a bad experience!! And uh, if I may plug for the homeschooling life, for those of you with school issues, you might find that the extra time you have to connect makes your relationship more solid, rather than less.









I don't want to come in here and seem judgemental at all -- I really do know where you are coming from. But what has helped me the most has been to shift my whole mindset about raising kids, and reading Unconditional Parenting, Hold on To Your Kids, and various other books, has really helped me a lot. Maturity helps a lot too, both mine and my son's.







He's been a basket case for about 3 years now, but here we sit, two months shy of his 5th b-day, and I can safely say that he's not mentally ill (and lots of people feared that he was, from reading what I wrote about him) he just needed a stronger mama duck. A lot of our problem stemmed from the fact that our philosophy was one of respect for the child, but in the heat of the moment, our backgrounds as repressed children came spewing forth, and we often felt that we "couldn't let him get away with this", and tried to control him rather than help him through it. It takes great strength to not give a rat's a$$ what people think of you and just really listen and help your kid.

The situation you described of your son being locked outside raging while you and your dh were locked inside broke my heart. I'm not casting blame, because it's often so hard to know what to do when things escalate to that point, but that poor kid was really trying to tell you something, and you shut him out, literally. I'm not saying that what you did was wrong, necessarily, but if you look at it from his perspective for a minute, it changes everything. Instead of feeling like he has to regain control before he can be let in the house, maybe you needed to firmly grab him by the shoulders, tell him he needed to stop, and restrain him. Maybe he needs a figurative "padded room" so to speak, or just to feel like when he's out of control, you can help him regain control, instead of being left to his own devices. I'm just throwing out ideas, because at some point, something that someone says will stick, right? A few weeks ago, my son was flipping out over not being able to have another turn at a computer game he and his sister and a neighbor were playing (it was the neighbor's turn). He was flipping out, so I picked him up and took him to the bedroom, trying to talk calmly, but he was freaking like he hasn't freaked in months. So I eventually wrapped his body in a blanket to keep him from hitting me and kicking me until I could see in his eyes that THAT was possibly a little, uh...damaging to him







. I just kept him from leaving the room (he was trying to get back to the computer to enforce his turn) kept him from hurting me by using my most FIRM (and a little scary, I think) voice to tell him that he was NOT going to hit me, and he backed down. Eventually, after going through this for about 20 minutes, I sat on the floor and reached out to him and he accepted my snuggle, and we just sat for a bit. I had already said my piece about taking turns, and there was nothing else to say. I weathered the storm, but without abandoning him, without engaging him, without ignoring him, being there for him but not abused by him. I was a strong mama duck, and he eventually followed my lead. The main problem, really, was that because he had been playing that computer game for about 30 minutes, he wasn't connected to me at all (or the real world, really!!), so when it wasn't his turn anymore, it was really jarring for him, and because of our lack of connectedness he wasn't up for cooperation. That one was fairly easy, because we had nowhere else we needed to be, no food burning on the stove, no other child needing attention, etc. But, he hasn't had a fit since then, and I do think a clear boundary was set that day that has had a lasting impression. I've stopped catering to his every whim, and he's learning to accept that -- both with age and with a growing awareness that he can't push me around, but MOSTLY, with his realization that I'm here to help him, and I'm on his side. I've always known that, but he is just figuring it out. One important "Neufeldianism" is that it doesn't matter how much love you have for the child, but how much love the child has for you. A good relationship with your child is based on how the child feels about you, and whether he wants to cooperate with you or not. I agree with what other people have said here about not taking things away or punishing in any way, because that's totally disrespectful, not at all helpful, and really just a way for us to exert power and control over our kids, which never makes them love us or trust us. It was a hard lesson for me to face, but it has made all the difference in the world.

I liked the quote: "the larger fabric of our relationship with our children is not ruined by one errant thread". But I would argue that we've come, in our society, to accept a less durable fabric as the norm, and that what seems like one errant thread to us may be more like a run in your nylons to a kid. Am I making any sense? It's hard to accept that after all our hard work and devotion we still may be screwing up, but facing up to our shortcomings and seeing them through the eyes of our kids (and remembering what it's like to be a kid!) is the only way to really help them through life. We all screw up, but how we deal with those screw-ups says so much!!


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## Magella

Julie,







We understand. No one here is going to beat you up. If I've learned nothing else of importance, I've learned that parents make mistakes (sometimes huge ones) and that forgiving myself is very important-if I can't forgive, I can't move on to grow as a parent. I'd like to say more but suddenly the natives are very restless.


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## emblmrgrl

Julie-


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## Threefold

Julie,








someone once told me (after I confessed one of my dark moments as a parent) that what makes a good parent is *caring* that you'd effed up and reflecting and moving on, able to do better next time. This is very very hard journey, and one that doesn't get much support. Hang in there.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I have this magnet on my fridge that says: Courage does not always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow".

This is true courage. One face of it, anyway.

I cannot figure out how to say what I'm about to say without sounding holier-than-thou, so I'm just going to do my best. **ETA that this is not directed at a particular person, but is just my own ramblings which were stirred by the sentence I quoted.** And I am going to say it because I think it's very relevant to the discussion of caring for ourselves, compassion for ourselves and how that enables us to grow as parents and do better "next time.":

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
But literally short of abuse, I really have mostly compassion for every mama and dad. Every single one of us.

I think that it's extremely important that compassion for my fellow parents not end when abuse begins. I had to look up the word "compassion" to make sure I'm using the right word, and I think I am. Compassion, according to my dictionary is "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress along with a desire to alleviate it." That has always been my sense of the word. Compassion is not synonymous with approval.

It's not easy, though, to cultivate compassion for those who do things we find shocking or abhorrent. But the way I see it (when I stop to consider), there but for the grace of g-d go I. Most parents who abuse do _not_ do so because they were simply born evil and born with a fetish for causing pain in small children. They abuse their kids for many of the same reasons that I screw up and yell at my kids, plus others. That can be hard to see, to imagine, to understand. And it's scary in a way, too. What if I'd never found MDC? What if I'd never come across a gentle discipline book? What if I had no understanding about child development? What if I lacked all that information and came from an abusive home, or were under unimaginable stress? What leads a parent to substance abuse that tends to end in child abuse? What if I had no support in my quest to better my parenting? What if I had continued to blame myself for my child's difficulties, and if everyone around me blamed me, as each and every gentle parenting method failed to change her behavior-could I have become abusive in an attempt to control her? I can see so many factors that can lead to a parent's abusing their child. Really, there but for the grace go I. I can see it. And I wonder if some of the things I've said and done were abusive. But what most helps _me_ change and learn and grow? It's not the shame, or the guilt, or the blame. It's the compassion, the compassion I receive from others and (maybe mostly) the compassion I can give to myself. And also the compassion I extend to others. It's also the understanding that helps, the understanding of not just my kids but also of myself. I think this is what we all need, as human parents. This is not only a gift we can give to others, but a gift we can give ourselves as well.

Okay, so I've been really working at this post and it still sounds soapbox-ish. I don't mean it to be, I just can't convey it any better. Compassion and understanding have for me become so vital-and in seeing how vital it is to me and my kids, I wish to extend it to all parents and children. If I can't extend it to everyone, it becomes more difficult for me to extend it to myself. And if I can't extend compassion and understanding to myself, then I have a much harder time growing and learning as a parent. It's a circle.

On the subject of "where did this alien personality of mine come from?": I have found that while sometimes my reactions _seem_ to come out of nowhere, they _always_ come from somewhere-some unmet need, some feeling, some habit of mind, something. Sometimes I'm just unaware of where it's coming from, sometimes it takes a long period of practicing becoming aware to really understand where it's coming from. Not digging, not theorizing, not psychoanalyzing myself-just being aware. Awareness is a tremendously difficult thing to cultivate.

Have I shared this story here?: There was a time when I read that the first step to ending a habit was to simply become aware of what's behind the urge to engage in it. Not to try to stop it, but simply to listen to oneself and become aware of where the urge comes from. And I wanted to apply this to my habit of yelling, but I was so afraid to do it because of the idea of not trying to stop myself. I realized that I thought that if I didn't try to stop myself, I would be in essence giving myself permission to yell and that in turn would lead to my becoming an even worse parent and maybe eventually horribly abusive. It sounds silly, but this was one of those ways of thinking that was really ingrained in me and that is really ingrained in our culture: that people are inherently "bad" and that without some kind of intimidation or punishment or reward people will always automatically choose the worst possible path, that if we offer compassion when someone has been "bad" they will in turn become even "worse". Once I recognized this in myself, I thought it was a little silly to assume that and found the courage to try. And truly, letting go of always trying to stop myself and instead focusing my energy on cultivating awareness was the most wonderful thing I ever did-it was the key, the beginning of actually making progress and changing. It was the beginning of seeing myself not as a bad parent, but as a person with needs and feelings who is worthy of compassion and understanding. It was the beginning of understanding that I cannot be a good parent without taking good care of myself. It was so amazing, too, in the way it freed me to really see my kids and find those responses that were gentle and effective-in the way it freed me from just reacting.

So now that it has taken me more than an hour to write this in stolen moments while the kids are busy, I'm done and I hope it made sense. It's hard for me to keep a train of thought going with interruptions.

Oh, and I too love what Maureen said: "The larger fabric of our relationship with our children is not ruined by one errant thread."


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## Inci

Sledg, thank you for your beautiful words. I don't think you sound too soapbox-y at all. I agree with you about the importance of compassion, of having compassion for every living being, actually, as difficult as that is to achieve.
Thank you, thank you.


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## MsMoMpls

I posted this great long post a few days ago and then lost it and didn't have the energy to return until today so here goes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I liked the quote: "the larger fabric of our relationship with our children is not ruined by one errant thread". But I would argue that we've come, in our society, to accept a less durable fabric as the norm, and that what seems like one errant thread to us may be more like a run in your nylons to a kid.









I very strongly believe that children have it much better today than they ever have in the history of the world. Certainly we have a long way to go and some things have gotten much worse as we have worked to repair other things. There are no good old days of parenting. Those dreams of Leave it to Beaver lifes were full of sexual abuse, physical abuse, shame, guilt, domestic abuse, racism, and sexism. We have more choices in how we create families, when we have children, the number of children we have. We understand brain development and nutrition and mental health and learning so much better than we ever have.

I wish we had universal health care coverage, longer maternity/paternity leaves, a higher breastfeeding rate, lower c-sect rate. I wish fewer parents spanked. I wish more parents felt they could trust the school system. I wish more of us could count on our children's fathers to be fathers and patners.

But I don't think we need higher expectations for moms. I don't think we need to feel guilty for our mistakes, our shortcomings. If people took the world as seriously as mothers take their children, we could end all the worlds troubles.

Ok-am I making any sense? Blessings to all.

Maureen


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## Magella

Maureen,


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## Bearsmama

Okay, admittedly, I couldn't find the clapping hands smiley, so the peace guy is gonna have to suffice. Ditto sledg's clapping hands, Maureen.


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## tiffani

I totally 100% agree with you, Maureen, and guilt was certainly never my intention -- if anything, for me, it was about getting over the guilt, the "shoulds", the idea that my kid needs to be anyone other than who he is, and fully accept and come to that place with him, that seems to be slowly inching us toward a less chaotic exsistence.

When I said that we've come to accept a less durable fabric as the norm, I mean that mainstream society (and not necessarily those here on this thread) accepts that kids "act out" or "try to get our attention" as if that were a negative thing that needs to be controlled. I think that kids "misbehave" for lack of a better word, or flip out or whatever your kid does to get under your skin, to tell us that they need our love and aren't feeling the connection. I feel that our lives are so busy and hectic a lot of the time that we do neglect the things that kids need, which is just a little bit of present, worry-free, 'let's enjoy each other time'. I'm obviously speaking for myself here, but I've really been trying to carry that feeling over into all areas of our lives together, because my kid needs desperately to be enjoyed, and the real trouble starts when he knows he's not. As long as he knows not only that we love him, but that we like him, he can more easily accept guidance from us.


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## TEAK's Mom

More applause here for Maureen.

Edited to say: tiffani, we posted at the same time. You're right about how much my dd needs to feel that I enjoy her.

I, as usual, never seem to have much time to post, (and I suck at nak-ing) but I still visit this thread as often as possible. You are all so amazing. I have also realized just how easy I have it in so many ways. We are going on 8 months of a good phase. Yes, there are days like today when TEAK is so sensitive it's like she has no skin at all, but somehow the connection between us seems to have mended. I owe all of you so much for that. You've helped me learn what it really means to accept her and love her for who she is, how to start forgiving myself when things go wrong, and how to just survive the storms little more intact.

Mind you, this is not to say that I'm now Siddartha-Mama or anything. I am, however, better that when we started.

Thank you!
k


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I totally 100% agree with you, Maureen, and guilt was certainly never my intention -- if anything, for me, it was about getting over the guilt, the "shoulds", the idea that my kid needs to be anyone other than who he is, and fully accept and come to that place with him, that seems to be slowly inching us toward a less chaotic exsistence.

I agree with this. I would add that getting over the guilt and the shoulds involves accepting and loving myself just as I am, not asking myself to be anyone other than who I am. This is as important as accepting and loving my kids as they are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
When I said that we've come to accept a less durable fabric as the norm, I mean that mainstream society (and not necessarily those here on this thread) accepts that kids "act out" or "try to get our attention" as if that were a negative thing that needs to be controlled.

I agree here, I think. I think our culture as a whole tends to not consider the reasons children (or adults) act out, and instead of viewing them with compassion and trying to understand the behavior and trying to meet the unmet needs that lead to that behavior, our culture just labels it "misbehavior" and urges us to control it. This does need to change in the culture at large, and I do believe those of us here have made that change in our thinking and know that there are reasons our children behave as they do even if we don't understand all the reasons.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I think that kids "misbehave" for lack of a better word, or flip out or whatever your kid does to get under your skin, to tell us that they need our love and aren't feeling the connection. I feel that our lives are so busy and hectic a lot of the time that we do neglect the things that kids need, which is just a little bit of present, worry-free, 'let's enjoy each other time'.

I think this is greatly oversimplifying the reasons for "misbehavior" (I, too, dislike the term "misbehavior" but for lack of a better term right now I'm going to go with it). Now, I do think that at times the need for greater connection and time spent together is the unmet need behind the behavior. That certainly does happen, and it's an important thing for parents to attend to. But this is not the only potential reason, IMHO, for "misbehavior." I think we make a big mistake, and do a disservice to parents and children, when we oversimplify and turn to thinking of just one thing as the cause for all problems. Looking only at lack of connection (or limits or consistency or what have you) as the sole cause of behavioral problems actually has the potential to limit the effectiveness of a family's problem-solving wrt discipline. Applying a single cause is limiting. I believe that humans have many more needs than just the need for connection, and any unmet need can give rise to behavioral problems. So can a lack of skills, or chemical reactions in our bodies (as when foods impact behavior), or fatigue and so one. When we tell parents "all you need to do is connect more" or "all kids need is more time with us" or and "all you need to do/all kids need" statement, we fail to accurately examine the humanity, circumstances and experiences of the individuals involved. Those blanket statements of "all parents need to do is....to have a healthy, well-behaved kid" are so much a part of the problem of mother-guilt.

I read Hold on To Your Kids also, and I'm a huge fan of Connection Parenting (which also holds that the cause of misbehavior is lack of connection), and I believe in the huge importance of connection. Kids do need to know we enjoy them and love them as they are. Connection can really help a parent understand a child's behavior and needs, yes (but not all the time). Connection can be the balm that helps a child even when there's another reason for their "misbehavior". Eta that connection helps our children learn, also, and is in many ways a foundation that allows our children to grow and learn and to behave in effective, appropriate ways. It's so important, so fundamental. But in no way do I consider lack of connection to be the root of _all_ "misbehavior", nor do I consider connection/reconnection to be the cure-all for a child's behavior. There are so many other potential reasons for the behavior of any human being.


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## emblmrgrl

Hello mamas ... wanted to check in with everyone. We're doing good over here at the present time.

Cole did get a postcard from his teacher a couple days ago so now we know what class he's in for the upcoming year. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, to be honest. From what I've been able to discern from other parents, this teacher, as one mom put it, "doesn't tolerate any clowning around". Another told me I wouldn't have to worry about the recess issue much as this teacher isn't known for taking her class out as often as some of the others. *sigh* After talking with DH, he thinks I need to go ahead and have Cole tested. I think if I'm not gonna be able to home school him, and I'm not ... I don't feel capable of that right now, that it's probably a wise choice. I've come to terms that he will just always be "more", but that's not conducive to a school setting and they need something concrete. Else, I fear I'll always be met with the "he has to learn to behave" line.

So that's where I am right now. As always, I hope the absence of activity on this thread is a good thing. Hugs to all!


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## Mommy&Will

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom*
but somehow the connection between us seems to have mended. I owe all of you so much for that. You've helped me learn what it really means to accept her and love her for who she is, how to start forgiving myself when things go wrong, and how to just survive the storms little more intact.

Mind you, this is not to say that I'm now Siddartha-Mama or anything. I am, however, better that when we started.

Thank you!
k

This is my exact sentiments. We have had a really, really great week here.

I attribute this to many factors:

1. We've slowed down our schedule.
2. I have been diligent on taking my vitamins.
3. I've forgiven myself and have found the joy of a 4 year old.
4. I'm reading Non-Violent Communicatin by Marshall Rosenberg.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...095343?ie=UTF8

I can't believe how just the first chapter of this book helped me. The biggest thing was understanding the importance of separating my OBSERVATIONS with my EVALUATIONS. When something nuts happened this week - and we had some CRAZY situations (jumping in his brother's poop, throwing our lunch soup bowls out the back door onto the deck, and literally climbing up the windows at our Waldorf toddler program), I handled it all so much better. I was able to follow the NVC rules of 1) Observing the situation without evaluating it 2) Trying to understand the real need of my ds, AND my own need 3) Stating my feelings and 4) Stating my request.

Its just helped so much, so that I am not internalizing every "misbehavior" as a reflection of some kind of failure on my part.

I'm happy. I want to keep these good times going, so I'll be checking in here frequently.


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## Threefold

I need to read the NVC book. I have an amazon gift cert, I think I'll order it.

We are okay, not bad, really, except my dd is turning two next week and she (unlike ds, who didn't get really challenging until 3) is going through the typical two year old devlopmental stuff, which I think over all is a good thing, but it is exhausting!
My ds is set to begin swim lessons next week and he is anxious about that and thus trying to dig his feet in about not doing them. I'd like to honor that, except, deep down, I think he actually does want to "be brave" and learn to swim, he likes the pool with floaties and all of his friends either swim or are in lessons. I checked it out thoroughly and we've done the slow prep work that he always needs, but he's still working it through. I guess we'll see what happens Monday.
Oh, on another note, both kids are now falling asleep in their own beds! Of course, by morning they are in my bed, but just having that little bit of space is a sanity saver for me.


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## Magella

emblm, I think there are advantages to testing when a child doesn't fit the school mold. It's a tough decision though, sometimes.

Julie, I love NVC. That book has helped me (and thus, my kids) so very much. Just that little bit about separating evaluations from observations and seeing behavior as an attempt at meeting a need alone makes a huge difference for me.

dalai mama, two is such a wonderful and exhausting age. I can relate to the situation with your son's swimming lessons. My oldest (my challenging one) has been doing swimming lessons for a few months now, and at first she was excited. Then she got there and cried and didn't want to get in the pool. We encouraged her, did the empathy thing, and she got in. And she loved the lesson. We knew she would, because she has always loved to swim (but never learned to more than dog-paddle up till that point). For that whole session she was all smiles, loving it. There are two weeks between sessions (each session is 6-8 weeks, lessons 1x/week), though, and when it came time for the next one she didn't want to go (after we talked about signing up, which she wanted, and went ahead and did it). We encouraged her, because we know her well enough to know that this is something she really enjoys but it's her *nerves* that get the best of her. So she started the next session, and she's loving it. She gets nervous, and that's what leads her to say she doesn't want to go. She needs help getting through that nervousness, and each time we help her through it she grows more confident. Last week she started martial arts lessons (Hapkido). She went the first night to just try it out, LOVED it, and right then wanted to sign up. The second day we went to lessons (she can go up to 4 times/week) it was a different teacher and class didn't start right away after we got there, there was a delay of like 10 minutes where the kids just warmed up and they waited for everyone to arrive. It was too long, she got really nervous, she came off the mat area and started crying and saying she didn't want to do it. I hugged her and encouraged her to relax and try, reminded her she'd been asking for it all week (she'd been asking every day when she could go next). The teacher came to encourage her, and after a moment just said "well, I guess I have to start without you." At that point I asked her if she wanted some water, and while she was drinking the teacher started class. She finished her drink, took a breath, wiped her eyes, gave me a kiss, and went out onto the mat to join in. All in all, it took her waaaaay less time to work through it than it would have in the past. The whole crying/don't want to episode lasted probably only two minutes, and it wasn't a big freak-out. She loved the class that day, practices at home all the time, and has gone to 4 classes this week. All smiles. So I think sometimes it's about knowing your child well enough to honor that deep-down desire to do whatever it is, to help them work through their nervousness so they can give it a try, rather than to just say "okay, we won't do it." And then if it still isn't working, you can always stop.


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## Threefold

Thanks for the story about your dd and lessons. We've had a rough go of attempting classes and it all stems from anxiety over something unfamiliar. I am feeling pretty positive about how we've handled the upcoming swim lessons. We hired a college student to come and play with us at the pool 4 times when we were visiting my parents and she snuck in a few lesson type things. I've been talking about lessons, my experience with them, and my fears. we identified butterflies in the stomach and shortness of breath as fear and talked about how that's okay, and how its okay to watch how the other kids handle water in their eyes and how they move their arms and legs. The lessons are small, 4 kids to a group, and short, 25 min, and the pool is small, so I think we're all set for sucess. And if it doesn't work to overcome the anxiety, then we'll try next summer. Ds spoke to my mom on the phone thismorning and told her all on his ownthat he was scared about swimlessons, and she was encouraging and supportive as well. I was proud of him for being able to identify and articulate his fear, and felt good about his relationship to my mom, that he shared it with her.

I am exhuasted, but enjoying my 2 yo's spunk. I honestly think her manipulative tantrums now will mean an easier 3, 4, and 5 than we've had with ds, but who knows, she comes from two headstrong and spirited parents, so I'm sure she'll find ways to challenge us


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## Bearsmama

Hi Ladies,
Just wanted to post quickly tonight and let you know that I've been reading, reading, reading all the recent posts. Of course, I always feel the need to take much more time with my thoughts when replying to this thread that has given me so much over the past year (YES, MAMAS, almost a year old!). Sooooo, much more when I can.


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## ComaWhite




----------



## Threefold

Hi Andrea~








Welcome.
I don't have much time but here's our family's astrological make up:
me: sun in leo, moon in picses, sag. rising
dh: sun in leo, moon in aries, scorpio rising
dd: sun in leo, moon in scorpio, picses rising
ds: sun in capricorn, moon in capricorn, aquarius rising








:







:







:
We are no strangers to intensity.








Surprisingly, my triple fire dd is the most mellow so far, but she can throw a great tantrum when she needs to (like the library yesterday







: )

I've been having great success with these books:
1) NonViolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg*
2)Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
3) Playful Pareting by Leonard (sorry spacing last name!)

And this thread, of course.


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## Bearsmama

Just checking in and continuuing to catch up on posts. Andrea-a big welcome and a GIANT







And all I have time to tell you is: NO, you are not crazy. Please keep reading the thread and all its many pages. There are challenging kids here that fit in at every point in the spectrum. Those that are simply, very, "spirited", and those that may or may not have something neurologically going on. Please keep coming here, and I'm sorry you've had such a hard time with your dd. My best to you. And I'll be back ASAP.


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Andrea.. I think you've found a good match in this tribe.

I don't have a lot of interesting stuff to share today but I like checking in and sharing just how great my challenging one is turning out.

Nate and I had a really honest open talk this week about his relationship and I was so able to hear how much he loves her and wants a good life for them. She is 24 and has a 2 year old... just like I do and of course she wants another baby... who can blame her for that right? So the fact that I don't want him to be a daddy, or me to be a grandmother made it really hard for me to listen, not control, not argue and really support and love. He wants to wait for a few years and I agree but I have a fear that she just might get her way on this one... hormones are a powerful thing.

All I know is that loving and accepting and being there is all that has worked, and it has worked. I am so proud of him. I love the grown up he is being. And it certainly helps me let my little ones be who they are and have faith in the grown ups I see deep inside them.

Hope everyone is well... this thread is a bit slow lately so either you are all melting and overwhelmed or things are going so well that you haven't thought much about the thread... I certainly hope it is the later.

Love you all.
Maureen


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## Magella

Maureen, I'm so happy to hear all these great stories about how wonderful a young man Nate has become. It's inspirational! What a great thing, that you two had such an amazing talk about his relationship. And how difficult for you. But how wonderful!

Andrea,







More to say but no time.


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## ComaWhite

Am I posting in the wrong area? Is this not the kind of thread this evolved into, I guess I should have read all 35 pages before posting.... ?


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## SilverWillow

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andrea*
because Im so ashamed of what a crappy mother I must be to have created such a broken little girl.

andrea, just want to let you know that this is a very common scenario in our house too. my daughter (age 5) rages for hours over similar requests and becomes aggressive if I try to come near her (or even if I don't, sometimes). the only thing that works is letting her work through it for a loooong time until I think she might accept some 'playful parenting', and then she is sometimes willing to get silly with me in order to get out of the situation. I'd sure love to hold her instead.









I don't know you, of course, but I CAN tell you that I struggle with the same awful feeling you describe above almost daily. when I'm thinking clearly and a bit more objectively I am able to realize I'm not an awful parent, but it's hard not to feel fundamentally at fault when our kids are so intensely unhappy (and so seemingly dissatisfied with us!). I'm guessing that the distress you're feeling means you are probably a very GOOD mother - your daughter is lucky to have a parent who is so concerned for her, and who wants so very much to do right by her. it helps me to get feedback on my parenting from people around me who *know* my parenting and whom I trust to be honest with me. maybe this would help you to keep your perspective, too.

take a deep breath and try to hang in there. I think *this* variety of difficult tends to ease as they get older. it's getting better over time for us; the bad days are less frequent. we'll have to cross the bridge of the replacement challenge when we come to it.







here's hoping it's one we can actually help our kids through in a way that allows us to feel good about ourselves as well. it helps me to look at the big picture, too. I remember talking to my mom when DD was a colicky 6-week-old: 'this is NOT your life,' she said, meaning basically that this too shall pass. I remember hearing her words but not really believing her. now I barely remember that very difficult time - there have been better patches and worse patches since. this is a rough one, but it will pass. I hope others here have more practical advice to help you get throught the days; I've mostly just got LOTS of sympathy.









you're not alone!


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## Magella

Andrea, I want to first say that you have not created a broken little girl, and I'm quite sure you're not a crappy mother. We mothers have a lot of influence over our kids, but we aren't the sole factor that determines who they are and what they do. I think your daughter's issues are probably more a matter of temperment (spelling?) than your parenting, or even possibly other more serious issues. I also can relate to your first post where you said you don't necessarily think your daughter needs fixing. I feel that way too, as if my daughter doesn't need fixing. What she needs is acceptance and support and she does need me to provide some help that will allow her to learn and grow. Mostly I need to learn to live more peacefully with her, and she will grow and mature and learn to handle life better as time goes on. Easier said than done. You're doing the best you can. With time, it's very likely she will begin to outgrow this.

I know you've read lots of books (I have too) but I'm going to recommend you read _The Explosive Child_ if you haven't already. Also, there's a great website with a lot of information about parenting explosive kids (and a great description of what traits the term 'explosive' includes according to the book-chronically inflexible, easily frustrated come to mind) at http://www.explosivekids.org/ . There's also a good description of the "pathways", which are the difficulties/deficits/reasons that result in a child being "explosive". And then there's the Collaborative Problem Solving method (also from the book) for parenting explosive children, which is something I am not super-skilled at but which is helping our family even though I'm muddling my way through it (sometimes pretty poorly). The CPS method focuses on finding doable, realistic, mutually satisfactory solutions to conflicts-which helps children learn to problem-solve and become more flexible over time. Basically the site provides a good synopsis of the book-on the home page there's a caregiver handout in PDF form that you can print out that's a great little summary of all this information. The Explosive Child is one of just 3 books that I keep going back to for help/reminders in parenting my child (the others are Nonviolent Communication and Connection Parenting).

It has helped me a lot to learn to focus less on what's wrong with my child and what I must be doing wrong, and to focus more on accepting that this is what is and on how I can live with what is more peacefully. That doesn't mean not working toward change, but in order to move toward change and to move toward helping my child I have to first accept her as she is and accept myself as I am and accept what is happening as it is. That acceptance is necessary in order to see clearly and to move toward an understanding that leads to insight that leads to knowing what it is I need to do to help my child learn and grow. I highly recommend the book _Peace Is Every Step_ just for helping you, yourself, find some peace. And finally, I think it's always a good idea to think about whether or not your family needs some outside help. We finally reached the point where we've begun that process, simply because it finally became to anxiety-producing for us and too hard on our family to keep going it alone. Will it help us? Don't know. But it was a comfort just to step onto that path.

One thing that comes to mind from your most recent post about blueberries is that perhaps it's possible that when your dh said "when you're done please pick them up" that what she heard was "pick them up" and thought he was telling her to pick them up now and be done playing. I don't know how old your daughter is (eta that now I see she's nearly 3), but this type of thing can still be a problem with my 6.5 year old. Often we have to start out immediately by saying things like "I'm not saying no" (part of what we've learned as part of the collaborative problem solving method) so she'll hear what we have to say, otherwise she is likely to hear only part of what we're saying and to think/assume we're telling her "no"-and then she'll start flipping out because she thinks we're saying no and when things don't go her way she just has very little ability to deal with it in an effective manner. (This can be a problem for my 2.5 year old too, though her behavior is not nearly as extreme. She'll hear only the "put it away" and not the "when you're done.") Does that make sense? There are so many skills one needs to have in order to deal with frustration or disappointment in more appropriate ways. You need to actually hear accurately what your parents have said, you need to be able to keep your emotions from overwhelming you (set them aside a bit in order to think), you need to be able to think flexibly enough to think of other solutions, to identify and articulate your feelings/the problem, etc. Lacking any of those skills can result in an inability to respond in any way other than tantruming. The other thing that comes to mind reading your last post is that my daughter also, not so much now but when she was younger, would not let us touch her or hug her or comfort her when she was having a tantrum/rage. I think it was too overwhelming, too much sensory input. She needed to work through it herself. She would let us comfort her later, but some kids don't go for that either. Is there any other way to comfort her, after she's done? My child would only go for my "drawing" letters on her back.

WRT things like the wrong banana or being the wrong way in bed or moving the phone, I can certainly think of times when my current 2.5 year old has flipped out over similar things. Sometimes my little one gets upset over things and I have no idea why those things are upsetting. I'm sure she has an idea but she can't articulate it. I think stuff like that is normal childhood stuff (mostly), but some kids react in more extreme ways than others. Probably especially those kids who are so sensitive to everything, including changes in their environment.

I will say that as difficult as it is, two things that are so very important to me and my child are 1) for me to find time and ways to connect with her and enjoy her company and 2) for me to take care of myself. Caring for oneself as a parent is so important, because if you're depleted you have less to give your child. If you don't have empathy for yourself, you can't give it to others. If you're tired or hungry or burnt-out, you have less energy to give to others. And finding some way to connect with your child not only helps her feel loved and encouraged and valued, it helps you too. I know that the more I am able to find ways of connecting with and enjoying my child, the easier the whole journey feels. It's always a struggle with my child (or so it seems, and life will always contain some struggle) but as Bearsmama once said, we can struggle for peace or we can struggle for misery. So knowing that inside the struggle is this kernel of happiness and beauty that is both my daughter and the good times waiting to be born, I can find the will and enough peace to muddle through and do the best I can to help the struggle pass and the good times be born and my daughter thrive. The uspide to living with a challenging child is the growth opportunity with which we are presented as parents. I am eternally grateful for that.

Time to run. Big







s, Andrea. Hang in there. And remember, you're only a human being like all the rest of us moms. You do the best you can and sometimes it's still hard (okay, let's not sugar-coat it: sometimes it still sucks). But this is not your fault.


----------



## 4evermom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andrea*
Tonight started with dd playing quitely on the floor, dh asking her "when youre done with those blueberries (that she had spread out all over the floor) please put them back in the fridge" She immediety started screaming and didnt stop for about an hour. She was kicking the floor and screaming "dont say that" "dont talk to me" "go away" "leave me alone" "thats hurting" "mommy/daddy I dont like you anymore" "let me go" ...
even though she was all alone in the bedroom.

This sounds so much like my niece (and to a lesser extent my ds) so I thought I'd chime in. My niece has been known to completely flip out like this in this sort of situation. What seemed to be the trigger was telling her something that she knows. My ds also went through a milder phase of getting upset at anyone cautioning him about things he was aware of, like saying the iron is hot. I trained myself to not repeat myself and to not say obvious things (like saying the iron is hot if he saw me plug it in). I'm not sure if the problem is that the child is sensitive to being treated condescendingly (both my ds and niece were treated respectfully, but all I can figure is that by telling them things they thought were obvious they thought we were implying they were stupid?) or if there is something more. Both kids are intelligent (but not "gifted") and fall into the catagory of highly sensitive.


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## Magella

4evermom, that's a good point to consider as well. My oldest is rather perfectionistic and super-sensitive to anything that she perceives as criticism. She sometimes perceives things as criticism that are not meant as criticism. Sometimes she's just got her thing going on, exploring the physics of blueberries or whatever, and any interruption bothers her-especially anything that insinuates that she should be done or that we're criticizing her/being condescending.

Andrea, have you read The Highly Sensitive Child? (As if you need more books.) That's another good one that helped me understand some of my child's issues. She is sensitive in so many ways-to the feel of clothes (I cannot begin to describe the difficulties we used to have with clothes), smells that I can't smell, sounds, certain types of touch, all sorts of sensory input. And she's very emotionally sensitive as well, and very intuitive. She picks up on so many nuances of life and relationships and conversations-and sometimes I think being able to notice those things but not being able to understand them is frustrating and confusing to her. For example, I think sometimes when I'm trying to be patient and kind and saying things like "when you're done with the blueberries please put them back" she can sense my frustration/exasperation/irritation (because I, for one, do not like the mess that blueberries all over the floor tends to create)-and my feelings/body language do not match my words and voila, she is one confused melting down kid. There are numerous other times she's picked up on subtleties in other situations, not just our direct interactions with her. I think that can be tough for a child.


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## kayjayjay

Andrea, I'm mostly a lurker on this thread, but I just wanted to say you've had some great responses and this is the perfect place for you to come. My 5yo DD is our extremely challenging child, and she sounds much like your DD. I found a lot of help from reading The Explosive Child, and I'm getting better with time at just accepting who she is. I spend a lot of time and energy shielding her from others (my MIL and my mother for example) so that she doesn't get unnecessarily frustrated.

I'm sorry I don't have anything to add to the wisdom that others have offered. Just a







. Hang in there.


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## emblmrgrl

As usual, Sledg has great advice! And welcome to the thread, Andrea. I don't think I got here in time to say that before.

But to reiterate something Sledg pointed out, I think your daughters temperment is largely at play here. I looked at the links you posted from your other threads and from the sounds of it, I think this is definitely WHO she is. I'd like to bring up again here (and no you don't have to read all gazillion pages of the thread but if you ever get time, do. there's some good stuff in this big long conversation







) how important it is for you to be confident in your approach. One thing we've seen with a couple of our challenging kids is that the more sure we are of ourselves and what we're asking of them, the better things go. They seem to be able to smell uncertainty! I also see you said you had a sad childhood and one thing I'd suggest is that you work very hard to not compare your childhood to your daughters. I know I've posted this before but somewhere on this board is a thread about beach towels ... One of the mamas posted that she never had nice towels to take swimming with her when she was a child and felt inferior, so she made darn sure her girls never experienced that and they had GREAT beach towels. Guess what? The girls couldn't care less about towels. The towels were HER issue, not theirs. Your daughter will not have the same experience as you, she isn't meant to. So try to let go of thinking that you are creating a broken person, when you're obviously trying to figure out how to help her. I know how it feels to think you're making it worse, but again, that's about us when we do that, not the kids.

Additionally, well for me, up until the past couple of months, life with my son has been ridiculously hard. He's now 6 1/2. Sometimes all you can do is keep going. And to be honest, some of the behaviors you describe aren't really abnormal for a 3 year old, even those that aren't spirited. The ability to control emotions and/or to even clue us in on what the problem really is doesn't come for while. I'm not sure why handing my (the most mellow child in the universe) 2 year old the cup he was asking for the other day ended in it being hurled back at my face and him screaming "I so angry right now mama!" but alas, it did. I think at these young ages all you can do is keep helping them with being able to express themselves and giving them a safe area when the emotions are too much or things cannot be the way they wish.

Ok, I've rambled enough ... hope you find some things that will help you get through!

On a side note, we're closing in on school starting and my boys have started playing football. I cannot believe the difference it has made in Cole. And now, I hate that I didn't let them do this last year. Finally, a place he can be as rough as he wants (he loves firm physical contact-where the hell was my brain?!) and get all that extra stimulation he craves. I hope this helps keep him calmer during the morning hours at school.

More when I can!







to everyone.


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## Magella

Me again. I'm hiding out inside with a migraine today, while my kids watch a lot of tv. Bad mommy!





















:

Jennifer (emblm) brought up confidence, and I really do think that cultivating that confidence is really important. I was thinking about this recently and what I was thinking of is how nervous/anxious/worried I tended to be for the longest time, always fretting about whether or not I was doing the right thing or whether or not something is wrong with my child. Now, I still do worry (of course) but not in the same way. I think when I'm just filled with doubt and anxiety my kids sense that, and then they feel anxious which leads to worse behavior and the whole cycle feeds on itself. Now, that's just something to be aware of, not wracked with guilt about. It's not easy to cultivate confidence, but worth the effort. And for me, much of that is learning to trust that my best effort at any moment will be good enough and that when my kids are grown they'll turn out all right despite the mistakes I've made and inevitably will make. Another piece of it is letting go of these ideas about what's "normal" and "appropriate" and "good"-both for me and my kids. We all can't fit that very narrow definition of "normal" that our society clings to and uses to evaluate everyone, and the ideas of "normal" and "good" and "appropriate" are very subjective really. When I can stop evaluating myself (or my child) and instead focus on our relationship, on our needs and how we can meet those needs and on how we can connect, things are so much better.

ETA: Once upon a time I had this idea of what my children would be like, what kind of mother I'd be, what parenting would be like. And that really was a fairy tale fantasy. My firstborn showed me that mothering is nothing like I imagined it would be, my firstborn was nothing like I imagined she'd be and continues to shatter my imaginings about what each next stage will bring. My younger two kids, my second is mellow and easy and I thought my third would be too (simply because surely I wouldn't have another who was so challenging, and anyone is mellow compared to my first). My third is somewhere in between, and when she began to show signs of being more like my first at times I was scared to death and disappointed. And I have certainly found out that I do not parent in the way I'd imagined I would (I'm not perfect enough







). It has been so helpful to let go of those fantasies of what my kids should be like or how I'd like them to be, and to let go of what I should be like, rather than keep comparing us and our life to them and finding reality wanting. Letting go of that frees us all to grow and love and be confident.

Jennifer, I'm glad that football seems to be helping your son. I hope it carries over and helps with school too.

**oh, and, uh, sorry for being so post-y today.


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## ComaWhite

I wanted to thank you all for your posts and thoughts... It really really did help.

I think you are right she just couldnt deal with being interupted when she was in her "zone" with the blueberries. I get that way when I am interupted from my work as well.

I put a hold on the Explosive Child book at the library, I havent read that one yet.


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## Magella

Andrea, I'm glad you found some things helpful. You are so very right, IMNSHO, to question those people who blame mothers and keep asking what's wrong with your daughter. There is no magic formula that creates an always well-behaved child. And society's definition of normal is way too narrow. It's good to learn the art of letting all that just roll off like so much water off a duck's back.

And mothers were never meant to do so much all by themselves. IMHO.

Glad you had a good day yesterday, hope today got better.


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## MsMoMpls

Check this article out... it is about the necessity of struggle... gives you pause to think about our job as parents.

http://www.harveymackay.com/columns/best/02.htm


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-Just had a chance to read that article. I agree wholeheartedly. There's another author, I think his last name is Hallowell (he writes about ADD/ADHD) who wrote about adversity and the necessity of it in one of his books. I think it was his book that's called something like the "7 Things to Make a Happy Adult", or something like that. The flip side of this is that, like you've mentioned before, is that you don't want your kids to disporportionately learn only this adversity at home. And sometimes I wonder what the balance is. I keep going back in my head to another thing you've said regarding your experience parenting Nate. About how being there, and loving him, are the only things that have worked. It just feels like such a crapshoot sometimes, YKWIM? There's no formula. No grand scheme that's going to work for all kids. And our challenging children blow any of these expectations out of the water. It's like they are teaching us what parenting is all about. They are screaming/crying/acting nutty/tantruming/causing us concern/making us make doc appointments/etc., etc., etc., saying JUST LOVE ME JUST LOVE ME JUST LOVE ME!

Andrea-I'm so glad that you've found some support here.









emblm-You're reminding me that when the kids are going nutty-both of them-not just Bears, having them do something physical really, really helps. For Bears, it's just running around with sticks in the grass. My other one seems more inclined toward more structured activity.

More when I can. Can you all believe that this thread is almost a YEAR OLD? Shouldn't we have a cocktail/ice cream or SOMETHING to honor that??


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## Magella

Maureen, I liked the article too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
The flip side of this is that, like you've mentioned before, is that you don't want your kids to disporportionately learn only this adversity at home. And sometimes I wonder what the balance is.

Good question. Is there an answer, though? I wonder about this too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I keep going back in my head to another thing you've said regarding your experience parenting Nate. About how being there, and loving him, are the only things that have worked. It just feels like such a crapshoot sometimes, YKWIM? There's no formula. No grand scheme that's going to work for all kids. And our challenging children blow any of these expectations out of the water. It's like they are teaching us what parenting is all about. They are screaming/crying/acting nutty/tantruming/causing us concern/making us make doc appointments/etc., etc., etc., saying JUST LOVE ME JUST LOVE ME JUST LOVE ME!

Myla and Jon Kabat-Zinn said that children are like live-in zen masters, teaching their parents about parenting/life. I think that's really a good comparison. It's like having a zen teacher ask you "what is the sound of one hand clapping?", and of course you can't approach that question with any sort of logic formula (for lack of a better phrase) or scientific experiment or any of the "traditional" ways of answering a question we typically rely on. No, instead it's this very mysterious question, and even understanding the question requires simply breathing, being mindful, being present in the moment. And sometimes, I hear, it can take years to realize an answer-and I say "an" answer because of course there is no "_the_ answer." Parenting is like that. It's not a method, it's a process and a relationship and a question and a challenge to grow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Can you all believe that this thread is almost a YEAR OLD? Shouldn't we have a cocktail/ice cream or SOMETHING to honor that??









Is it really? Wow.







It should be honored somehow, definitely. I am so grateful for this thread.


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## Awaken

post deleted


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome newcomers... I don't know how you could read this whole thread. I tried to print it once for a training I was doing and it was over 100 pages. So... just jump in... if your kid fits, you fit here.

Nate lost his job and is fighting with his girlfriend so he has taken to hiding in his room and sleeping for 14 hours a day... and I suspect as he hasn't been able to return my calls, that those 14 hours are day hours. I am working on trusting that this is just a little depression and not a big one. He has such great coping skills now that I am sure he will never be in the kind of trouble he was in the past.

Part of the problem is that I am reading Bebe Moore Cambell's novel called 72 Hour Hold... which is about her own experience of having a bipolar daughter. Her story reminds me so much of Nate's worst years that I am having all sorts of unexpected feelings. I'm not sure I can recommend the book to this group- you all don't need to think about teenagers right now, and just because they are having rough years now means nothing about the future. Her daughter didn't become bipolar until 17, Nate didn't show serious symptoms until 8 and was pretty normal by 17.

I had an exercise to do for my Landmark work where I interviewed Nate about my strengths and weaknesses and it was so wonderful to get his honest opinion about me. He is so perceptive. One thing he said is that most of the things that make him crazy about me are really his shortcomings, not mine. (My husband should think about that!) He did talk about how weird it is that I am so relaxed and laid back when he is so anxious.

The funniest thing and the thing that I am really thinking about is that he said it wasn't really a shortcoming but just a real difference between us but he thinks it is so interesting that I make decisions about my life based on logic and what is right and he makes so many decisions based on what is artistic or his feelings. That has me thinking about how I interact with so many people in my life. I just figure that people act "rationally" and of course so many people are ruled by passions and emotions and that is ok, just not something I completely understand. Don't know, just a thought.

Hope all is well with people, it has been a hell of a year hasn't it?

Maureen


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## Magella

Maureen, wanted to let you know I've been thinking of you and Nate. I hope he's feeling better soon, and that things turn around for him. I hope you're doing okay too. Your talk with him sounds like it was interesting and intimate and just so nice. He sounds like a really great, perceptive, intelligent young man.


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## Threefold

Maureen, I hope all is working out and thank you for your insights and work on this thread. sledg, I caught your post in TAO, didn't have time to respond, but have been thinking of you.
We are still having good days and bad days around here, or rather, each day has bits of everything. Like Opera, I guess, highs and lows, though the music and costumes are a little lacking








The thing I struggle with the most is the absolute bat guano hyper wild moods that ds has at times. he is wildly giggling and out of his body, and wild! IT is like he isn't there and can't hear me at all. It is this time, often when someone gets hurt, often him.
Arrrgh! I have more to say, but both children are needing something. . .


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## Magella

Thanks, dalai. I have calmed down considerably since then, and have begun taking some reasonable and rational precautions. At this point, it's sort of a quiet background thought most of the time, but I am finding that I'm more anxious than usual in a sort of "general anxiety" kind of way. Life is certainly an adventure.

I hate those hyper moods too. I love that phrase-"bat guano hyper." I will be using that for sure!







I hope today's opera is a good one for you.

Today I let my parents take the kids into the Big City (I am so not a city person, I like my smallish town) to go to the aquarium and a couple of other places. I'm feeling very nervous about it, even though they've taken them there before. Then I did the whole "what's the rule? Stay with Grandma and Grandpa. What do you do if you can't see them? Stay where you are, ask a woman with kids to help you" Gavin DeBecker thing. (which we've done before) This resulted in my oldest becoming completely whiny and nudgy, which in turn made me realize that at least today the problem is anxiety. So another clue as to how to deal with her in the future, or at least another way to understand her. (First thing to do: don't let my anxiety ooze out all over my kids and scare them.)


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
(First thing to do: don't let my anxiety ooze out all over my kids and scare them.)

No time to respond right now... wanted to add- teach her to be brave! There is absolutely nothing wrong with fear... just don't let it stop you.

Life is great right now.

Maureen


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## Magella

Thanks, Maureen. We do talk a lot about being brave. I even talked with dh right in front of the kids about how I was nervous to let them go but was going to let them go anyway because they will have a great time. We talk a lot about being nervous and afraid, and that's okay and we don't have to let those feelings stop us from trying new things. And when she was nervous/acting out this morning we talked about that and I helped her get dressed and out the door (big clinging and separation anxiety), and by the time she got in the car she had a big smile on. And incidentally, you, Maureen, are the reason we talk about bravery so much and the reason I encourage my kids to go ahead and try things even when they're scared. You posted something great about bravery a long time ago. I don't think I could begin to find it.

I just think I went a little overboard this morning. That's all. But now it seems like no big deal.

Glad to hear life is good.


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## Bearsmama

Maureen-







Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you & Nate.

sledg & Maureen-Remind me of the bravery piece? I think I remember it, but not sure. Would love to re-read it. We talk about being brave, too. About how bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's about being scared and doing what you have to do anyway.

dalai-We have those bat guano moods A LOT around here. Sometimes DH and I look at each other and say quietly, "Are all children this amped all the time or just ours?". Bears is pretty wild and the little one is a very excited, jazzed on life kinda kid. The combination looks like someone gave them methamphetamines! I'm not really kidding, either.


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## Threefold

I'm laughing with you, honestly, Bears.
I talked to ds last night about the bat guano moods and he told me he needed more silliness and that he got mad when we didn't get it right away and then he was bat guano (well he didn't use that term







) AND mad.
So, we have this thing called "pickel power" which is a very stupid silly phrase we thow out, so we are trying to remember to do that at the right times. He had a bge (bat guano episode







) today with dh and dh came up the stairs saying "oh, no,!" with ds right at his heels, spitting mad by now and threatening to hit, throw, etc, so, while keeping him from hitting and throwing without words (b/c, really, he *knows* this isn't cool), I got silly with him and he shared his impatience to leave for the park, we laughed a bit and left. Yay!!!!
But, it just takes so much energy to be on like this all the time,my challenge is how to stay energetic with limited time to recharge!


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## Bearsmama

Oh, dalai-Having the energy to always be on your toes with these kids is sooooo tough. I think many kids require a lot of energy, but our special kids require superhuman emotional & spiritual energy! Your pickle power reminded me of something we do on occasion when things start getting nutty. We make this sound that sounds a bit like, "boingoboingo". One time I got angry with Bears about something and overreacted and then we talked about it after the fact and he said, "Mom, you didn't remember the WORD." Like just saying the word would have made everything better. Which it would have!


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## Magella

Alas, I cannot find the bravery piece I'm thinking of. I don't remember specifics, it's more that I remember the idea. It's a tickle in the back of my brain. I don't even remember how long ago it was. I've tried a search, but I haven't found it and have run out of time. I'll post a link if I find it later. Anyway, the important thing I took from it was how important it is to understand what it means to be brave, to discover you can be brave, and to feel your own strength and to grow from that. To not let your fear hold you back, to stretch your comfort zone.

Gotta run. Take care.


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## Bearsmama

To my Mamas,

On the anniversary of this thread, I needed to post and THANK YOU for the tremendous love & support I've received from this thread over the past year. I really cannot believe that my little cry for help has evolved into this ongoing parenting support spot for so many of us. I truly credit all of you for getting me through this year. For letting me know that I'm not alone in my parenting struggles. And that is HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. So now, even on the dark days, I know that other moms are struggling with their unique kids, too. And you know what? I really think that this thread has become about WAY more than our challenging kids. It really is this amazing space where we can all talk about the REAL challenges of motherhood. I feel safe here, I feel real here. I don't feel that I have to meet any expectations. I can just BE. Besides all the real-deal, specific advice and wisdom to help us all better parent our challenging kids, of course. Thank you, thank you, thank you.


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## emblmrgrl

Wow! A whole year? Amazing.
















Thank you all for helping to create a place where we can find support and understanding.


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## Threefold

thank you Bears, this thread is useful not only for the insights into how to best parent our challenging loves, but in normalizing the struggles of parenting. I get so much peace out of realizing again and again that every moment is not supposed to be joyful and that the house need not be clean and calm as a measure of my success as the mother of these creatures I love more than any other.


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## mamajody

Bearsmama,

I have only read the first few posts, so forgive me if I miss any other details you might have shared. I am going back to read the rest of the posts when I am more conscious.







First of all







to you mama. And all the other mamas with challenging DC's. What a challenge you have been facing. Happy Anniversary! I don't know how old your DS is, but I have had quite a bit of experience dealing with the "defiant" personality type. I worked in a school for SED kids that have EXTREMELY challenging behaviors. My last class was 7-11 year olds, all boys. Although I haven't read the book you quote from, I did see a lot of that pushing away from my boys. They are prepared to think negatively about EVERYTHING you say or do in reaction to their behavior. They are always looking for a way out, just in case. Many of them can't or won't "own" their behavior. This isn't because you made them that way, it is temperament. My own DD is very strong willed, but has not yet crossed the line into "defiant". I am preparing for it though. Both my brother and my BIL were very bright, but defiant angry young men, and sometimes I see a lot of them in her. These kids do need our love and support more than most. You sound like you are doing a great job coping with this.

I can offer you some tips I picked up while teaching Special Ed to these kids. I use a lot of the strategies in my own parenting. Most are pretty common sense: A sense of humor is key, as is a sense of timing. I play the, "I am crazier than you" card all the time. It helps diffuse a tense situation, but you don't want to belittle the child either. Choosing your battles is always hard, but you know you have to do it. Also refusing to raise your tone of voice above a normal speaking voice can be very effective. I learned that proximity was key to discipline. Move in close, but respect personal space, and use the quietest most deadly serious voice to get attention. If you are normally a yeller like I am, this change of tactic may work really well. That ends the cyle of escalatiing behavior for both of you.Also calm in the face of the storm is very useful.
If you and DH are organized enough to have nightly parenting pow wows (you rock BTW. I can't find the time for this more than weekly) than get organized enough to write your ideas down and use them more effectively. With your DS present, generate a list of 3-5 things you want to work on with DS. Make them very concrete, specific, and with no room for interpretation by you or him. Also make them do-able. Don't pick the hardest to control bevior to pin all the rewards on. Break that behavior up into smaller steps. Agree that you will focus on THOSE items and let the other things go for now. Then generate a list of consequences that will be leveled if DS violates the agreement. These can all be based on gentle discipine, or can be as hard as you feel you need to make them. Whatever works for you. Everyone signs it. (If you think your parenting behavior needs work you and DH should do the same for yourselves. I would not include DS in THAT discussion. Don't put your issues on him.) I would also generate a list of rewards the DS can earn for good behavior. Again, make them specific, and attractive to him. Listen to his ideas and negotiate. When he masters one set of behaviors, step it up and make a new list.
Have you tried a behavioral charting system with DS at home or school? They can be useful if they address the behvior in the right way. The way we kept track of progress in my class was by using a level system. Amateur, minor league, pro, and superstar. A violation of the behavior agreement would result in a loss of points. Lose too many and you go down the ranks. Very good behavior could earn you bonus points above and beyond the points you got for following the rules. Each level lasted for a number of days, not just one.
For instance if a child hit someone else thay automatically dropped down to amateur. Hitting is never acceptable. It would then take them 3 days to improve on their own behvior and move back up to minor league. During those 3 days they had extra duties in the classroom, extra work at home, and no privelages. We also used a time out room at the school, and the child would be sent there for cooling off periods if they needed them. Again, not punitive. I tried not to wait that long. Make it proactive as in, " I see you need some space to think/cool off. Why don't you go chill in the other room for now, and I will finish the dishes. We can talk in a couple of minutes" Until they earned their way back up life was a little rough. They were not treated in a punitive way while they were there. It was just hard living until they moved up on their own. It might be different if a child used a disrespectful tone, refused to follow a direction, or cursed. They would lose points, but maybe not drop a whole level. Unless they did it repeatedly.
Each of the other levels took a few more days than the one before. They show that the child is learning to internalize the right behvior and is beginning to do it without constant correction. Each level has more privelages than the one before. I found the level system more supportive than a simplistic sticker chart. It has more direct ties to the specific behvaiors you want to see. All four levels could be accomplished in about a month if the child never dropped.

Keep up the good work everyone. I am so glad I found this discussion. I appreciate all that you all are sharing. I am sorry this is so long. I hope some of it helps. If you like any of it and have questions, PM me and I'll give you more details. Good luck to you and your family.


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## Magella

Thank you, Bearsmama for having the courage to start this thread and to share your struggles so honestly and openly. And thank you to all the moms here for sharing so honestly and openly your struggles as well, and for making this such a safe, wonderful place to be and to share.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the dalai mama*
this thread is useful not only for the insights into how to best parent our challenging loves, but in normalizing the struggles of parenting. I get so much peace out of realizing again and again that every moment is not supposed to be joyful and that the house need not be clean and calm as a measure of my success as the mother of these creatures I love more than any other.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
It really is this amazing space where we can all talk about the REAL challenges of motherhood. I feel safe here, I feel real here. I don't feel that I have to meet any expectations. I can just BE.


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## MsMoMpls

:









That's my birthday party for us... I just love throwing parties.

I am on a list serve for AP parenting in my area and there are so many moms who are hung up on doing it "right" and end up being very judgemental. There are a few of us moms trying to balance their voices. They are the ones that when someone says "I really need a break from my kid. What do you think about me leaving them with their dad for an overnight?" You know, something like that... they come back with all this never, never, never would I leave my child... Not enough- "this is what works for us" lots of "this is the AP way!"

I think about how committed this group is to staying connected and responsive to children who are challenging and know that we have answers for parents that no one else is offering them... how to do your work, take care of you and be the best you can in a tough situation.

My latest parenting philosophy is that do what ever works that has you yelling the least. I guess I think the measure of successful parenting right now is a day I don't lose it. And my kids aren't even that challenging.

Happy Birthday to all of us. And thank you all for offering me a place to help work out what I do believe about parenting, about Nate and about myself.

Maureen


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## Justine

My posts have been few and far between but I read ALL the time. Put simply it's the most genuine, reliable, honest, inspiring (I could go on!) group I know of. I always come away with something to think 'hmmmmmmm' about - a new skill to try or consider. And I always feel inspired which is so important with challenging children.

I do hope it continues and hopefully I can join in more often. Thank you all - on so many levels. Three women here have inspired me immensely - sledg, maureen and bearsmama. The way you all have thought about your kids/parenting/challenges is inspirational.


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## Magella

I just wanted to pop in before we head out on vacation. We're coming back two days before dd starts first grade, I can't believe it's time already, and I'm a little sad already about her going back to school. I was thinking of Cole, emblm, and hoping his transition into school again goes well and that he has a good start to the year.

Hope you ladies and your kids are all doing well. We've had a bumpy summer but overall we're doing okay.


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## Bearsmama

jody-Thank you. I have to go back and read your post in more detail, but thank you.

dalai, maureen, sledg, justine, emblm-
Much Love, mamas.









Maureen-I am trying to get to the yelling the least amount thing, and sometimes I don't even know what that is. Although for us, it's doing stuff. Too much down time is a killer over here. Killer. Yesterday morning I knew the day was off to a bad start and I got us up and out of the house and to the park before 10:00. We stayed there for literally hours b/c I was having nice adult conversation and the kids are having fun. I'm getting a little better at trying to do something to help us. Sometimes I've had this tendency to just sort of wallow in the chaos or misery. Not getting us up and out of it, YKWIM?

We've had a few Lord of the Flies kinda days this week. And after 4.6 years I've finally REALLY made the connection that transitions and downtime/unstructured time really seems to be a tipping point for Bears. I don't know if it allows some of his wacky behaviors to fester more, or if it's just that he's so uncomfortable not knowing what his day will bring. The summer, for the most part, has been great. Really. DH and I have looked at each other, knocked wood, and looked at Bears, and realized that he's maturing, getting better at handling some minor dissapointments, etc. That said, remember the grand mal tantrum I detailed in mid-June? Well, that was about a week into being out of pre-school, and before his morning camp program started. When camp started, we saw changes, positive ones. Then, camp ended about two weeks ago, and it's like the old Bears is back. Quick to flip out over the really, really minor things, being a bit aggressive with his little brother, and generally being a real challenging kid. Coincidence? No. Now, I'm finally putting the pieces together. It might not make things better, but it helps us to anticipate his reactions better.

Example: Purple Heart was coming this morning. I was walking down the stairs with literally armfuls of clothes to put in bags to donate. And he asked me to do something for him. Well, I said, "As soon as I get these downstairs, I can help you with whatever you need." He couldn't tolerate this at all. Proceeded to hit, scream, cry. No amount of reassurance or talking would help this.

These scenarios have happened multiple times a day over the past week or so. We have another few weeks before he starts preschool again. Wish me luck ladies.

I have more to stay, but I have to go....


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## Magella

So I'm not the only dork who JUST NOW realized that downtime and a lack of predictable schedule is a major contributor to their challenging kid's challenging behavior!







(uh, no offense meant by the dork comment) I kept trying to figure out why we've been having so many bad days this summer, so sad at all the wasted time (we've had plenty of good days too but I had imagined a _blissful_ summer, with almost no bad days), when it hit me just about a week ago. At least your kid is only 4, Bearsmama. Imagine not realizing it until he was about to turn 7! And what's worse is that I am 35 years old and just now realized how much better *I* do with a routine rather than a whole unstructured day looming ahead of me, and how much better *I* do when we get away from the house to do things regularly.

Of course there have been other factors as well, but the lack of routine is a big deal.

You probably do this, but I've been finding that saying an immediate "yes, I will do that..." before I say "as soon as I get downstairs" actually makes a difference here with both my challenging kiddo and my toddler. I think they really only hear the first couple of words out of my mouth, so I try to choose carefully. After the first couple of words I seem to be talking to myself an awful lot of the time.


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## Magella

I wanted to add, Bearsmama, that I've also recently really realized that there's a certain type of boredom that spells trouble for dd. Getting out and playing is nice and all, but dd seems to also need a certain amount of challenge in her day/week/life. I've noticed that she just thrives in this pleasant way when she's challenged-she loves hapkido because it challenges her, she loves to cook because not only is it a sensory activity she loves but it's also a challenge (she reads recipes, she gets to do more than stir-cut, measure, etc), she loves to read because it's a challenge, she loves math because it's a challenge. She loves games like simon says and "red light" (learned this one from my mil yesterday), where there's a challenge to not get caught moving or to follow the correct instruction. And when she's doing something that challenges her (and doesn't frighten her and isn't way too hard) she's happy, she's....organized, calm, in the zone, cooperative, smiling. She needs creativity too-art, mixing up goo to see if she can come up with something edible or bake-able, making up stories (they love to....what's it called when one person starts a story and everyone has a turn adding on?).

Along those lines, I've been trying for years to help her find a way to calm down when she's upset so she can listen, talk, problem-solve. Finally, I stumbled on something last week. She was yelling and fussing and non-redirectable in trying to hit her brother, and she always resists taking a breath or counting or anything I try so I thought maybe I'll try addition problems (she has loved math for a long time now). I thought there was no way it'd work but I was at a loss and things were really headed downhill. But she suddenly, in the middle of her fussing, says "no easy ones!" (I had said what's one plus one). So I gave her a harder one, and before I knew it she was calming down. We did several math problems until she was calm, then we could talk. And it has continued to work with every episode since so far (she's had several over the last few days, but all have been short thanks to math). Interesting.


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## WuWei

It sounds like a sense of "mastery" or competence when she is feeling helpless or impotent to change the situation redirects her emotional energy toward something "rewarding" or satisfying?

Pat


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## Magella

Pat, that could be. It could also be that focusing on something that she enjoys is relaxing. It could be that it's her interest in the challenge of solving the math problem that interrupts the emotional storm-it distracts her. Maybe it takes the focus off of the unpleasant, frustrating situation long enough for her to calm down. Whatever it is it helps her relax so that her emotions aren't ruling her, so that she can think. She seems to have difficulty setting aside her emotions enough to engage in problem solving (yk, separation of affect, you have to have a bit of ability to temper your emotions so you can think)-it comes on fast and strong (particularly frustration) and renders her much less capable of thinking things through and communicating. And math is a good neutral subject-focusing on her breath, for example, seems to keep her too focused on the emotion itself.


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## Bearsmama

sledg, No, I'm a dork, too!







Actually, I think for me (and my DH will attest to this) I'm a slow learner. With everything. My lightbulb moments come infrequently. Also, like I said before, I'm a wallower. For whatever reason. I get very negative, and I don't see any way out of a situation, or a way to change things. Then I realize that I actually have to _do_ something!







Wondering where that comes from?

Also-sledg-I've realized that I immediately say NO or "As soon as I'm..." ALL THE TIME. I hate to admit that, but I rarely lately say, "Yep, sure.". And Bears (and my other child) need that.

Bears had a great day playing with a friend, and is now so darn tired, he is just wreaking havoc on our house. We ordered a pizza for dinner tonight and ate out on the deck. The kids usually love this. Bears refused to sit at the table, didn't eat. And then when everyone was done, said, "Where's my dinner?". He had 45 minutes to eat with us, and chose to run around. Fine. But then it's like tears, screams, etc., b/c we're all finished. He's been randomly hitting us, etc.

Also, today he got into a little altercation about a toy with his friend. Well, it ended in both boys crying. The other boy ran to his dad for comfort and just let his dad hold him for a bit. Bears, OTOH, didn't come near me, didn't let me touch him, and while he was crying was trying to psychotically laugh and smile. This happens sometimes. I always try to tell him, when you're sad, just be sad. When you're mad, just be mad. You don't have to be anything else.

So, it's so hard to feel at all useful/helpful, like a parent, really, when he's going thru these times. It feels like he would rather be raised by wolves in the woods. Takes no direction, wants no comfort, and hides or masks his feelings/need to solace, etc. It's just rough. It brings out the worst in me. And right now, I don't want to be with him. Thank GOD DH is off for a few days next week. We can share this load this time.

Thanks for listening, as always, mamas.

Oh, sledg-Bears is OBSESSED with math and math problems. He does them all day long and sometimes I have to tell him that I need to take a break from addition/multiplication.


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## mamajody

Sledg,

Congrats! You found one of her "off switches"







! One of my first graders would have psychotic episodes of violence when he became frustrated. He just couldn't process the massive amounts of information/emotions that flood through you whe you get stressed. We found that SINGING would shut it off. As soon as I started singing ANY silly little song he would immediately tune in and calm down. He would be willing to talk through his frustration within a minute sometimes. I think he just needed to disasssociate from all of his feelings and step back, YKIM? It sounds like the math problems help your DD in the same way. If she steps out of the middle of the storm she has time to process her feelings/thoughts without pressure.


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## mother culture

Don't beat yourself up over your mistakes! I think that he has his own Karma to work through and you have to raise him the best you can. I agree the yelling is a problem. I hate to hear myself yell! Can you try yelling I love you instead? It works for me sometimes and is just enough steam let off that I can think logically and handle the situation. My middle son (4) is my opposite and I've had a hard time relating and getting through to him. I feel like if you take advantage of quiet times to snuggle and tell him that you are proud of him then he will hold on to that and It will cary him through until he matures enough to have a good relationship with you. Keep up the positive !


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## Magella

Jody, yeah I think what happens is that she just can't resist math and doing math is incompatible with maintaining that highly emotional state-it takes her out of the storm.

Bearsmama, Bears multiplies already? Wow. Cool. I do get tired of math too, sometimes. I also wanted to say that not only am I apparently a slow learner when it comes to parenting, and honestly a little bit of a wallower too, but I'm also kind of narrowly focused a lot of the time. It can be hard to see all the really proactive things that I can do, hard to see the big picture that includes all those larger-scope things that affect my kiddo (like an unstructured day). KWIM? Of course, it's hard, I think, to keep track of all the things such sensitive kids are affected by-especially when you're so busy just surviving each day reasonably well.

I'm sorry you had a rough day, Bearsmama. It's so hard when they're upset and nothing you do seems to help, and they don't even seem to want your help. Btdt. I'm glad you'll have a bit of a break next week. Take care.


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## Bearsmama

motherculture-Thank you for your post. You made me think of something tonight. To revisit being silly, LOUDLY, when I'm angry, to let off some steam. Also, I really like what you say about the little things that we can tell our kids to carry them through. I like that, I have to remember that. WE do that a lot over here, and somedays I just hope it's enough. Thanks.

sledg-Thanks for the encouragement, as always.


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## Threefold

Just checking in quickly to say that the first two days of Kindergarten have been fabulous! No meltdowns, no power struggles, all rainbows and unicorns (well maybe not quite







). I am teaching at his school (a Waldorf Inspired public charter) part time and I've worked pretty hard to get a predictable rhythm in place for him with challenges, stimulation, and down time. I know we'll have rough spots, but so far, all signs points towards this school being exactly what we needed. I'm a bit sad to let go of the idea of homeschooling, but that wasn't a financial reality for us anyway, and it seems fairly clear that where we are right now is right! Not only that, but I am also much more deeply happy teaching in this school and being a part of this community, and I suppose that makes a big difference for ds as well.
How is school for everyone else?


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## Bearsmama

dalai-Happy to hear that school has started well for you & yours. Bears is really looking forward to going back to preschool in a few weeks. He started last fall, loves his school, his friends, etc. It's a Montessori preschool and the structure/predictability is really wonderful for him. In fact, he yearns to have more of that during these summer days. It's amazing b/c it's only a few hours/day, but that little diversion and time away from me, is great for me (and frankly, good for me). This year, he'll be going a few additional hours, and he's really looking forward to it.


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## Magella

I'm having a tantrum because for the *second* time the neurologist's office has called to reschedule because the doc is not going to be in on the day dd has an appt.







*&%@$#! Now, I know dd's stuff isn't urgent, and I know it's wise to wait that few extra weeks to see the neuro who specializes in tics (rather than one who doesn't)....I know going from Sept. 20th to Nov. 22nd is not a huge deal. But just as much as I'm feeling "okay, no biggie" I am also seriously friggin annoyed. And what if the third time isn't a charm and they cancel *again* (because Nov. 22nd is the day before Thanksgiving, who knows what could happen, maybe he'll take a trip)? Do I go looking for another doc and wait another 6-9 months? Or wait this guy's typical 2-3 months? I should start shopping around now, maybe.

Just...ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! grumble, grumble, grumble







:

On a better note, dd went off to first grade this morning just fine. Yesterday was tough, she was a bundle of nerves and rather difficult to live with and impossible to soothe. We went to see her classroom last night, and that helps her but it really brought on the anxiety for her too. But this morning was nice. We'll see what this afternoon and tomorrow bring. One day at a time. (I should add that mom is having a hard time sending her baby off to first grade. I'm not ready for summer to be over and to send her back.)

A lot of things lately have made me realize that one piece of dd's issues is anxiety. She's an anxious person, and she gets really irritable and withdraws (so no soothing from me, very little talking about it, sometimes won't let us so much as touch her or speak to her at all) and lashes out. I don't know what to do with this realization yet, but it helps in a way to understand it.

dalai mama, I'm glad your son is enjoying kindergarten. I hope it continues to be all rainbows and unicorns!

Hope you're all well. Take care.


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## emblmrgrl

Thought I should do a quick update while I had a minute ... time is a precious commodity in this house lately! But in short, we're all doing well.

We're in our third week of school this week and so far, only one phone call from the teacher. LOL! It wasn't too bad, however. Cole had taken his sunglasses to school and told the teacher that I'd sent them. I found it amusing. Other than that though, it's been okay. This particular teacher uses a similar yet different discipline system than the other teachers. Instead of the green, yellow, red cards, they get 5 dinosaurs to remove for rule infractions. This is wonderful for Cole. It seems to give him a bit more time to get himself in check. She's been teaching for 30 some odd years though so I figure she's got some tricks up her sleeve for kids like him! Also, they are very hands on so it stays really busy through the day keeping him stimulated. I can almost relax!

Football is still helping him, too, I think. It has taken him longer than I thought it would to be really physical with the others though. Maybe it's just learning to channel the energy that has taken time. But at practice last night they scrimmaged an older age group (5,6,7 vs. 8,9) and he was right in the middle of them! He had a blast!

So that's really all we've been doing. It's either sleep or sports right now. LOL!

Hope everyone is doing well!


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## Bearsmama

hi sledg et al--Ah, man, I'd be so pissed, too. You're allowed to be mad. All I want to do is give you a







I have more to give, just not the time... many, many, hugs...


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## Bearsmama

Okay, I had another minute. And I needed a little love from my mamas, and I also wanted to share some more love.

emblm-It sounds like physical activity really helps your little guy. Bears seems to do well with physical activity, but really, I've realized that mental stimulation is what he needs, and I can't always give him that.

Bears goes back to preschool next week. And we are BOTH really looking forward to it! For some reason, early on in mothering him, I really thought that by saying, MAN, I can't WAIT until he goes to school would be some kind of sign of defeat. But now I know that it's a sign of looking for my sanity.

Speaking of sanity, where has mine gone?







Bears has been nutty the past week or so, with loads of downtown-which is not a good thing. Anyway, much love to everyone tonight. Thank you ALL for being here.


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## its_our_family

38 Pages later....

I have learned a lot from this thread. I wish I would have been around from the beginning of it.


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## punkprincessmama

subbing so I can come back and read more... what a wonderful collection of wise words and loving mamas









How timely for my family...


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## Bearsmama

punkprincess & its_our_family-Many hugs to you both and I'm glad you found us over here.









S.O.S over here. Bears has gone down bigtime in the past few days. I think I mentioned that things have been sort of bad since camp ended in early August. Lots of downtime, etc.= not a good time for Bears. Well, in the past week things have been rough, but the past weekend was just horrible. I can't even go into it. The weekend ended in tonight's finale of loads of screaming and crying (for everyone). We've seen the tics resurface over the past two-three days (or, should I say, tic-ish behavior). Like constant lip-licking. Sucking on his fingers a bit. And generally being horribly disagreeable. The kicker is he's more aggressive during this "storm" than I've seen him before. He's always been aggressive to me & DH when he's like this. But today, he hit a little girl at the park. Which is something he's never done before. He's talking constantly, crying/laughing almost at the same time, etc., etc.

Tonight was just awful. My family feels so out of control. It scares me when he's like this. I remember a psych. telling us that this variability, the fact that he's not ALWAYS like this, is a good thing. But I don't really understand that right now. It feels awful. He starts school on Wednesday, and I'm figuring out these patterns, finally, that he has surrounding transitions.

I don't know how to be his rock. I don't know how to be human and deal with this chaos and confusion. I remember Maureeen saying something about my anger issues that I was posting on and she said that there's something that happens in my responses that is like a fight or flight thing, a scared-for-my-life kinda response. And I know we all have this at times. But I get this so much tonight. Bears makes me feel so vulnerable, and so scared. He feels like such a threat, really, a threat to my life, and our home, and what I've always wanted to create for my family life.

DH was saying tonight how days/weeks like this affect every aspect of his life. From how he feels at work, to how he feels driving his car, to buying something at a store. It saps our energies, our passions, our desires, everything. I still haven't figured out how to weather these storms with anything close to grace. In fact, I haven't figured out how to weather him without losing my mind, going ballistic, getting out of control angry, etc. Just can't. I see him like this, and I go back to thinking about Tourette's, or BP disorder. Ugh. Ugh.

Please say a small prayer to the universe for our family to get through this particular, raging storm. Thank you all for being here.


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## WuWei

Bearsmama, I am sorry life is chaos at the moment. I wanted to explore the Bach Flower remedies with you. Have you tried any of them? I find several help me to find that place of calm so that I can think before reacting. When our son has been physical, I have almost a post-traumatic-stress reaction. I would experience such a intense, viceral, flight or fight feeling when he would grab me and my hands were occupied, or head butt me for sensory input when tired. Or dairy.







:

My favorites are

*Elm*-restores your normal strength and optimism when you are temporarilly overwhelmed by responsibility. (I find this helpful about 5pm, when ds hasn't had a nap, I am needing to coordinate dinner, find the kitchen counters and something gets spilled, broken, hurt, upset, etc.)

*Beech*-helps you to be more tolerant and see the positives in others despite their imperfections. (This one helps when ds is too tired to sleep and too wound up to consider other's needs. *I* take it for patience.)

*Cherry Plum*-helps you act rationally and think clearly with a calm and balanced mind when you fear losing control. (this is for when I want to hit or run due to physical impact.) I give it to ds for food reactions, and out of control hungry/tired/angry "emotional releases". Fortunately, we don't have these much since we are so diligent about food additives.

Those are the most helpful for our household's sanity. We also find the following beneficial too:

*Holly*-encourages a more generous nature when you feel jealous, envious, vengeful or suspicious. (mostly we give this to the cats.







But, ds gets some occasionally when we have had too much stimuli at a playdate.)

*White Chestnut*-encourages a peaceful and calm mind when thoughts and worries go round and round in your head. (This is great for when I wake up in the middle of the night and can't stop rumminating to go back to sleep. It just disolves the worrisome, obsessive thinking.)

*Rock Rose*-for panicky, terrorstruck fear that makes conscious thought and decision next to impossible. The remedy provides calm and courage. The self is forgotten and strength reappears. (We rarely ever use this. But, it is great for when you have an overwhelming panic of loss of control.)

*Vervain*-helps you to relax when you are over enthusiastic or strongly driven. (this is great for compulsions and strong-minded determination, ie "stubornness")

Each is useful as an acute remedy. But I'll spike ds's juice or milk with Rescue Remedy, or take some Elm if it starts out looking like it will be a looooonnnngggg day. For instance, a short night's sleep, a busy day ahead and ds won't eat first.
















They are all natural, safe remedies for stress, upset, fear, depression, etc. You can select those that are best for you based upon reading about each one, or taking the quiz as the remedy finder. You can choose up to 5 or so and mix a few drops of each in water and sip as needed, or take straight in the midst of a situation. These do not replace other alternative therapies, but they can help address acute situations. We use classical homeopathy and it is a wholistic health alternative that addresses depression or anxiety also.

Here are some links to more info about Bach Flower Remedies:

http://www.ainsworths.com/remedy/default.aspx

http://www.transformationaltools.com...nder/index.php

http://www.naturallythinking.co.uk/p...dyfinder.shtml

http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm

http://www.bachflower.com/38_Essences.htm

Also consider Magnesium supplements. Check out the Nutrition and Immunology thread in the Vaccine forum. But most of us are low in Mg. and it is highly associated with behavioral issues. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=406983

Have you looked into the Feingold Diet? We have huge issues with artificial colors, flavors and preservatives. And dairy.

Pat


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## Threefold

I am heavily immersed in school at the moment, but I do want to offer this








I will be back later.
Hang in there.


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## Magella

Bearsmama, literally only have a minute to give you







s. I'm sorry. I know how it is. It's so very hard. I often don't know how to be the rock either.

Welcome to its_our_family and punkinprincess.

Catch ya later. Hang in there and take care.


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## Bearsmama

dalai-Thank you. I need the hug. And sledg-Thank you, as always...









And only a minute here, too, but scuba-I think you hit on something. Something about the post-traumatic thing really fits for describing how I feel and react during these times. I don't know if it's something I'm unconciously reliving from my past, or just this tremendous sense of trying to "save" myself, so-to-speak.

I've tried the Bach Rescue Remedy (have it in my cabinet right now). And I didn't feel any relief. But it might be b/c I'm not using it correctly, or perhaps it's a cumulative thing? Like I should be using it every day? I've tried many natural therapies over the years, and so I'm aware of the ones you mentioned, but I haven't had the time to explore them. Thank you for writing all that great info out--this will help me. Thank you for the links.

I'll be back soon. More later...Scuba thanks so much. I have more to say in response to your post...


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
And only a minute here, too, but scuba-I think you hit on something. Something about the post-traumatic thing really fits for describing how I feel and react during these times. I don't know if it's something I'm unconciously reliving from my past, or just this tremendous sense of trying to "save" myself, so-to-speak.


This was a huge issue for me to cognitively come to terms with. What possible explanation was there for my wanting to *throw* my son off of me with an intensity of feeling violated, assaulted and trapped when at 18 months old he merely grabbed my legs with his little arms while I was standing at the sink, and my hands were busy cutting up chicken and I couldn't find the rational mind to gently respond?!?! The viceral reaction I experience inside of me was overwhelming and out of proportion to the "threat" of a toddler grabbing his mama. I yelled at him "GET OFF OF ME!!". Fortunately, I didn't act on my desire to toss him off of my leg. But the vehemence of my explosive reaction shocked me. Fortunately, my husband observed my angry outburst and insisted that I needed to "talk to someone". He hypothesized that I was reacting to my childhood. Humph. I thought.









Well, the more I thought about it, the clearer it seemed. I recall feeling helpless, trapped, immoblized, unable to escape from many "discipline" moments in childhood. Many of which were very physical and painful. As a result, I believe the physicality qued those emotions to replay and BOY! did they explode through my body with intensity. In reflection, I can't think of any other experience in my adulthood that has had any physicality associated with it. No physical threats to resurface these buried emotions. But, children are physical beings and the idea that my son was being physical against my wishes, also revived the philosophical dissidence that I experienced at being told 'this is for your own good', 'you know better', 'this will teach you', yada, yada when being punished as a child. (I am concerned that my sharing might dredge up some painful memories for you or others, so I will remain discrete.) But, the emotional overload of imposed physicality and pain in my childhood triggers huge areas for me to learn self-awareness and self-control as a parent.

I have found that *my* reactions, when he is physical, feed our son's exploration AND emotional lability. We become an escalating cycle of gasoline on fire. Fortunately, I have learned some mediative tools of being in the present moment, which I practice in all areas of my life. Mostly by avoiding schedule pressures which cause me to be RUSHING toward the future. And learning to eliminate negative self-talk (self-blame) which takes me out of the present moment into ruminating regret about this or that "should have been better". I have honestly been able to break many of these patterns so that in the heat of the moment, my emotional reaction is in line with my *present* REAL experience of mothering a child who has *needs*, rather than reacting to the impact and imposed physicality. I have been able to learn to look at ds's physicality as a means of him meeting an underlying need. I also am aware that his attachment need is for connectivity with me and when I withdraw emotionally due to his physicality he becomes a flailing "boat without an anchor".

So, I have worked to control what I can control: how I view and react to his actions. Instead of trying to control his actions. This change in focus breaks the escalation from brewing, smoldering and bursting forth. It takes A LOT of constant awareness and connectivity with our son because he is a VERY physical being, and sensory seeking at that. When food issues, unwelcome transitions, too much auditory stimuli, or emotional distress (mine or his) is added to the mix we start amping up. *I* am the only one who can break the cycle. Actually, he has started to say 'Mama, calm down', if he hears me discussing something in a passionate manner.

As they say 'children teach us what we most need to learn'.

Yes, I'll sip and use the Bach Flower remedies liberally at times. And other times we don't use them for weeks. I have no concern about using them. I know I have baggage, hot buttons and triggers regarding imposed physicality. Ds is learning impulse control; and together we explore methods of constructive self-soothing of his sensory seeking needs. (bouncing on the mattress, couch, running, swinging, trampoline, "burrito wraps", "pillow mash", jumping in place, pushing against my hands, pulling heavy objects, etc.) But, we are a work in progress. The key for us is to *not* judge his actions through a filter of "intentional" or "mean". I believe these impair my ability to see his actions as messages of *his* underlying needs. They are very myopic views of his actions from the eye of the beholder, not the *needs* of my child. Learning to see actions from a perspective other than the one I am experiencing has been challenging, to say the least. Obviously, it wasn't modelled for me in childhood. Oh, and personal counselling helped me to expunge some of my negative self-talk by reflecting on my childhood experiences with an adult perspective. The supportive, empathetic and validating resource of an advocate was missing in my childhood. It is amazing how healing it is to have the pain that was denied, honored and recognized instead. Finally.

HTH, Pat


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## Magella

Pat, you are a treasure. I love your post. I needed that today. Some things really stood out for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I have found that *my* reactions, when he is physical, feed our son's exploration AND emotional lability. We become an escalating cycle of gasoline on fire. Fortunately, I have learned some mediative tools of being in the present moment, which I practice in all areas of my life.

I have honestly been able to break many of these patterns so that in the heat of the moment, my emotional reaction is in line with my *present* REAL experience of mothering a child who has *needs*, rather than reacting to the impact and imposed physicality.

So, I have worked to control what I can control: how I view and react to his actions. Instead of trying to control his actions. This change in focus breaks the escalation from brewing, smoldering and bursting forth.

The key for us is to *not* judge his actions through a filter of "intentional" or "mean". I believe these impair my ability to see his actions as messages of *his* underlying needs. Learning to see actions from a perspective other than the one I am experiencing has been challenging, to say the least.

I have been able to do this. I'm getting better at it. This is how to be the rock. Remaining calm. Awareness. Seeing things from another perspective. Recognizing the reactions of my own that are triggered by my child's behavior but stem from something else (and letting them go, not letting them color my perceptions of what's real and happening right now). Refraining from judging myself or my child.

It's hard work. Especially when you have no role models to show you how, and you have to unlearn so much.

ETA Bearsmama, I think that what triggers me that is related to my childhood is just that feeling of not being in control, of being helpless, and of not being heard-goodness knows I felt helpless, unheard and completely without control or input a lot as a child. Some of those feelings stem from this sense that I feel threatened by my child's behavioral difficulties, as if her having difficulties means I'm doing something wrong and am a bad mother. And sometimes I think feeling helples isn't necessarily related to my childhood, but is just how people sometimes feel when faced with a difficulty they don't know how to cope with. No one likes to feel helpless, and I think that can lead to this desperate-ish attempt to find control to protect myself. And, too, I think people have a real need for a certain amount of peace, ease, predictability-and when our lives aren't peaceful, when the stress builds up, we can get a little desperate for that peace. I find that so much of the root of my most uncomfortable feelings is this belief that I won't be safe if I'm not in control, and this desire for control-but as Pat said, the only things we can control are our own perceptions and our own responses. Fortunately, that's where the real power and freedom and peace are.


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## Bearsmama

Okay, sledg-you beat me to it. Scuba-That last post was amazing. Wow. So much to sink my teeth into there. So much to think about. So much hits home. I feel that I've been so sporadic with my posts recently, but here I go again:

This might be a little OT right now, but do you think that besides the fact that a child like Bears could make a saint want to tear her hair out, and besides the fact that I could be operating during these hard times under these shadow-y, childhood issues, Do you think it's possible to just have a post-traumatic response to these issues due to recent emotional trauma involving said child? Okay, admittedly, that was a ramble. And a big run-on sentence. But DH and I were just talking about horrible Bear's babyhood was. He was horribly colicky. No one believed me until they saw it. DH and I say even now that it's amazing that we all survived (it was nearly a year before I was about to get three consecutive hours of sleep, for example, and two years until Bear slept longer stretches). I almost feel that some of my anger during these storms (at least a piece of the puzzle of my sometimes disporportionate anger), is this sense of never being able to recover from the shear TRAUMA of delivering Bears (also horrible-involving a bad labor and birth as well as Bears having a health scare at birth). We've never been able to catch our breath (I say we b/c my DH who doesn't have as many childhood issues as I do, and whose responses are usually more clear-cut, feels very similarly about all this). We've never been able to get back to anything that more resembles our old personal space (extended nursing and bed-sharing, for ex). Anyway. This is a brain dump here. But we've never had a moment to recover at all from any of the challenges Bears has thrown at us. Could much of this anger stuff stem from more recent traumatic events-like birth-recovery from birth, colikcy child, literally no sleep, challenging toddler, challenging child?

Just a thought. Thank you all for being here. And thank you, Scuba, for your honest, amazing, insightful post. I have to re-read it another three times, I think, to even GET what's truly been given in your words.
More when i can...


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## Magella

You know, Bearsmama, I think it can happen. When people go through a trauma, or just a very difficult time, they need time to heal. And with a kid who is so very challenging, there is so little time to heal. And I totally think our brains and bodies get stuck in patterns of reaction-yk, our stress response becomes the default when we're under stress for so long. I mean both the physical, brain/neurological/biochemical response and our emotional/thought response. In terms of thought patterns, I think we begin to filter everything through the lens of unresolved stress, worry, doubt, trauma. And I think it makes sense that this issue contributes very, very heavily to anger problems.

Thank you for clarifying, because it now makes so much sense to me and because I see more clearly what's going on with my own anger problems now.

ETA: I'm reminded now of when I first started exploring how to deal with my anger, and I read _When Anger Hurts Your Kids_. One thing pointed out in that book is that anger is always a secondary emotion, something other feeling is always the precursor to anger. And in the beginning, I didn't buy that at all. I thought, people just get angry sometimes, it isn't always so complicated2. But after all this time I know now that it's true. Something always precedes the anger (a feeling, which goes hand in hand with an unmet need), and when that something is ignored for too long that is when anger appears. So anger really is a signal, it can be something we look on in a more friendly way-it's telling us to pay attention to our own needs. And really, though some things have to do with the deep past in that our past conditions us to react and think in certain ways, so much more of it (for me) has to do with the present and recent past (the recent past in which I've ignored my feelings and needs-is the traumatic event in and of itself the problem? Or is it how I responded to or ignored my needs that are related to that event?). It is so helpful to feel anger, and ask myself what that anger is telling me. But sometimes it's easy to get caught up in it and forget to ask myself that, too. And, too, it's easy to say "okay, I'm angry, and now I know I need xyz, but this child will not let me!" And that feeds the anger. This is where I tend to get stuck. But that's putting responsibility for my needs and feelings onto my child, and it's giving my power away. That's neither good for my child nor good for me. When I do see where my anger comes from and my own needs, and I can also step back enough to realize that only I can do that for myself, then I am free to respond to my child differently-with more patience and compassion and creativity.

Edited (again) to add: When it comes to unmet needs, I find it easy to only think about things like rest/sleep, food, water, exercise, respect, safety. But we have so many needs, and some things that I now recognize as needs are things that I think our culture tends to think of as optional-as perks, as nice is you've got them but a desire, a luxury, something we don't really need. But we do need them. Things that I think of as pretty much universal needs are: connection/closeness/community, emotional safety, empathy, love, creativity, learning, meaning, self-worth, autonomy, joy, celebration (joyful celebration or mourning), acceptance, appreciation, contribution (to my children's growth, learning, well-being, for example), reassurance, support, trust, understanding, harmony, peace, ease, beauty, order, inspiration, touch, consideration. I've found it helpful to think about this, to understand that these are very real needs and that there are many ways to meet those needs (so I don't get stuck in thinking that a need can only be met in one particular way).


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## kayjayjay

Hello everyone, I'm sorry to lurk so much and not post, but today I'm in need of a cyber hug. Things have been going relatively well with DD (5 years old) for about a year now. I don't know why exactly, but I believe my own empathy (and learning to let a LOT of things go) combined with her developing communication skills have been largely the reason.

Anyway, one of our biggest struggles has always been the way she interacts with strangers. She growls at people a lot and tells them to go away, and always has. She has this great curly hair and long eyelashes and everyone wants to talk to her, and this is very difficult for her. Not surprisingly most people are shocked and appalled when she reacts this way, and trying to mediate for her really wears me out.

My biggest problem right now is the other moms in our homeschooling group, all very nice women, who all seem to disapprove of the way I handle her. We had a field trip this morning to a science museum that went pretty well overall, but she was very clingy and growled at a few people when we first got there. I tried to make it very clear that transitions are hard for her, and that everyone needed to just leave her be until she was comfortable, but I got a lot of strange looks. My other two DDs (10yo and 2yo) always just jump right in with the other kids, but Sophie clings to my leg like a monkey and scowls at everyone. I don't know what these women think they would do with her, but it's so frustrating to me that no one can understand that I didn't "make" her this way by coddling her. I can't force her to come out of her shell, that is something that she has to decide to do on her own.

I just feel like I need to shelter her right now. So much of her "bad" behavior comes from her feeling embarrased, and not having the social skills to cope with it. I hate it when people look at her like she must be such a bad girl. I'm just sad and tired right now. Thanks for allowing me a little vent, I figured if nothing else, someone on this thread might have btdt.


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## WuWei

Kayjayjay,

Our son (and dh) are introverts. And both highly sensitive. It is truely a gift of increased awareness of the environment and other's emotional states. I am not highly sensitive. The smallest thing (tone, a smirk, a head tilt, a snort) will be noticed by either of them. And they are very reserved about connecting with people who are either judgmental or invade their space. Fortunately, dh and I survived many years together before I learned about the highly sensitive trait. In retrospect, I am not sure how because I was always dragging him to parties, gatherings and other crowded activities. He would clam up with strangers; but talk your ear off if he was comfortable and familiar with you. He makes deep and committed relationships with well chosen, but few people. Our son is similarly socially defensive unless he is comfortable around friends. He would also always turn away, hiding his head into my chest and shoulder. What makes matters worse is when they would touch him, or get into his face or space and TALK LOUDLY.







<sigh>

I did/do like you, I ask for space for him to "warm up" to people. I work hard not to dismiss his sense of intrusion and offer words that he can use to ask for the space he needs. He is more and more able to say 'I don't want to talk', 'I need some space', 'I'd like to be alone', 'It is too crowded for me', 'I need a quiet break', 'I am ready to leave', 'I think it is too noisy', etc. By "investigating" his sensory experiences, we were able to note patterns and discuss ways to avoid or take breaks from being overstimulated. Another thing that helps is to plan quiet activites into the outing to give the break that he needs. I am reminded of our trips to Walmart where we would stop by the music samplers, the fish, the novelty lights, the plant dept for "down time" amidst the intense sounds, lights, people, carts, noises, motion, colors, etc. while shopping. We also planned these trips when he was feeling his best, early in the day, after eating protein, after having a physical sensory outlet, bringing a snack or other activity to refocus when things became "too much".

Here is a link to The Highly Sensitive Child web site: http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm There is a little quiz that helps to identify if this sounds like your daughter. There is also a "Mothering the Highly Sensitive Child" tribe in FYT: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ight=sensitive

I just happened upon another tribe: "Introverts in an Extroverted World". http://www.mothering.com/discussions...introvertsThis might be useful. I am going to check it out myself.

HTH,

Pat

ETA: link to Introvert tribe.


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## kayjayjay

I only have a sec, but thank you very much scubamama. I'm also an introvert, but I've compensated for so many years I forget what it was like. I will check out those links. Thanks again.


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## Bearsmama

kayjayjay-Here's a big







. I've been in a similar place before with Bears, many, many times. I remember very clearly how I would feel when a few women in my playgroup were judgemental of my parenting. I remember getting into a dispute with one particular friend in this group about how time-outs really work for her and that I should give them a try, yadda, yadda, yadda. And this group of women have become very good friends over the years (we've been meeting since the kids were 1 yo). Bears NEVER wanted to participate in any sort of group activity-EVER. He is a bit better with this now, but he is not the stereotypic kid. Like, let's make a craft! Let's bead! And Bears would be suspicious of all of these sorts of activities. I never knew (still don't many times) what an outting would bring. I feel for you. I think the info Scuba gave to you, about introverts, is really, really helpful. In fact, this discussion is making me remember taking the Meyers-Briggs personality tests (and others) at one of the last corporate jobs I worked. I can't remember what my type was, but I think it would be interesting to revisit that. I think it can be really helpful to figure out how we're operating, what our we need, and how our kids behavior threatens how we operate or validates it.

Sounds like you want to protect your daughter and it also sounds like you really relate to her experience. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps I was *exactly* like Bears was at this age. And that's why our relationship is so tricky for me. Somehow I relate to his behavior, at some level.

My best to you. Keep checking in. Many hugs...









Scuba-I just wanted to thank you AGAIN for your information on the Bach remedies. I have picked up the Bach questionairre before, and just yesterday I picked one up again at Whole Foods. I will be purchasing some soon. In the meantime, I'm going to try using the Rescue Remedy more frequently.


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## kayjayjay

Thank you bearsmama.







I feel much better today, after DH came home we had a nice long talk about it and he feels much the same way I do about her (that people don't generally see what we see in her and don't appreciate her the way we do). I do think she's a lot like me in some ways, but her explosive tantrums are something I still really struggle to understand. She was being very quiet and introspective yesterday, though, not difficult at all (by my standards) so it was particularly hard to take the disapproval. I know we go through this sort of thing a lot with both sets of grandparents because they really see only a difficult child in her and it hurts that they can't seem to look beyond the obvious behaviors.

Bearsmama and scubamama, how old are your DC and when do you think they started to open up more in group situations? I feel like DD does so much better than she used to, but she still has a long way to go to feel comfortable, if indeed she ever will. Poor little girl.


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## Bearsmama

Kayjayjay-Glad things are a bit better today.









Bears is 4 1/2 (my little one is 2). I hate to say this, but it's only recently that he has gotten to the point where we don't DREAD many social situations. Of course, this has probably been changing incrementally for a long time, but we've noticed big changes in the past few months. If he is by himself (like if it's the weekend and I can run out with him to the grocery store or elsewhere without our younger child, he is mostly a joy to be with). DH and I were just talking about this. We have a family wedding coming up in a few months, and the festivities have already started. Just today we had something to do with other family members and he was amazing, fun, etc. Last weekend we had a social thing where DH and I were sweating whether or not he'd actually get out of the car, and we didn't have to worry at all. He gladly entered the scene, and although he hung back at a bit, he mostly joined in with the fun.

Of course, during one of his bad times, I can't rely on anything to predict his behavior in social situations. I think most of his growth in this area has more to do with him changing, however incrementally, than it does with anything we did or did not do. That said, we try NOT to avoid things anymore that we think will be a hard time. Sometimes in the past we resisted doing certain things to save all of our minds. We realized, though, that doing things mostly helped him. Helped him to see other ways of being, so-to-speak.


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## MsMoMpls

Just checking in... I have been lurking... much to do in life...much going on... just wanted to drop in and share....

I am going to be a.....

GRANDMA!!!

Nate's girlfriend is due in May... not exactly what I would have picked for him right now but I have to admit... having him really created my life for me so I hope this baby does the same for him...

My ds will be 22 on Saturday and will be an amazing father to this baby and hopefully an amazing husband as well.

It all works out, really it does.

Love you all....

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Maureen, congratulations! What you said about Nate creating your life for you is really quite amazing. And you and Nate have all my best wishes. Wowwowowowowow......!


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## Magella

Congratulations, Maureen!!!!!


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## emblmrgrl

Congrats Maureen!!!


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## MsMoMpls

sad news...............what a roller coaster..........she miscarried this morning, I am sad and a bit relieved I suppose but very aware of how little I can protect my son from the journey he has.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
sad news...............what a roller coaster..........she miscarried this morning, I am sad and a bit relieved I suppose but very aware of how little I can protect my son from the journey he has.

How very sad. I hope that you all find peace in the challenge to accept this.

Pat, sending healing vibes


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## Magella

Maureen, how sad.







May you all find healing and peace.


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## kayjayjay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
sad news...............what a roller coaster..........she miscarried this morning, I am sad and a bit relieved I suppose but very aware of how little I can protect my son from the journey he has.

How sad, I'm very sorry.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Maureen. Much love to you and your son and his girlfriend right now.


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## Threefold

Maureen~
I was just coming on to respond to your initial post.
Much love to you all.


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## Dechen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
This might be a little OT right now, but do you think that besides the fact that a child like Bears could make a saint want to tear her hair out, and besides the fact that I could be operating during these hard times under these shadow-y, childhood issues, Do you think it's possible to just have a post-traumatic response to these issues due to recent emotional trauma involving said child? Okay, admittedly, that was a ramble. And a big run-on sentence. But DH and I were just talking about horrible Bear's babyhood was. He was horribly colicky. No one believed me until they saw it. DH and I say even now that it's amazing that we all survived (it was nearly a year before I was about to get three consecutive hours of sleep, for example, and two years until Bear slept longer stretches). I almost feel that some of my anger during these storms (at least a piece of the puzzle of my sometimes disporportionate anger), is this sense of never being able to recover from the shear TRAUMA of delivering Bears (also horrible-involving a bad labor and birth as well as Bears having a health scare at birth). We've never been able to catch our breath (I say we b/c my DH who doesn't have as many childhood issues as I do, and whose responses are usually more clear-cut, feels very similarly about all this). We've never been able to get back to anything that more resembles our old personal space (extended nursing and bed-sharing, for ex). Anyway. This is a brain dump here. But we've never had a moment to recover at all from any of the challenges Bears has thrown at us. Could much of this anger stuff stem from more recent traumatic events-like birth-recovery from birth, colikcy child, literally no sleep, challenging toddler, challenging child?

I lurk in this thread every so often. I should probably keep up, but in my off time I like to escape and not read about what stresses me.









Anyway, I can so relate to much of what you wrote. Dd was Colicky with a capital C, was a challenging baby and I wasn't regularly getting more than 2 hrs of sleep in a row until she was 2 years old.

I definitely had a form of PTSD from her infancy. It wasn't until sometime in the last few months that I could hold a little baby and not feel terrorized. Holding a baby made all of these feelings WHOOSH back in.

I do think some of my difficulty with dd's aggressive behavior is my own baggage - I have a VERY hard time with the feeling of being phsyically assaulted, and even at the hands of a little kid I feel violated and horrible when I'm being attacked.

I think both factors are at play for me - the cumulative stress of a really unpleasant pregnancy, a barely survivable first year, and a grit-your-teeth toddlerhood as well as pre-existing issues of mine.


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## Magella

So, yesterday afternoon my daughter short-circuited in front of the inlaws. First episode of its kind outside of our home. First full-blown meltdown in front of anyone but dh or me (aside from a couple when she was a toddler). There was no consoling her, no reasoning with her, no problem-solving. She wouldn't have any of that. All this over the fact that it was time to leave. I did all the right things, we had a plan before we got there. I allowed for extra time, gave plenty of warnings, she asked for "one more time" of hide and seek and that became 3 more times because she didn't hide right the first two and I figured no big deal I'll work with her. But in the end it was a disaster, and for lack of anything else that could help I ended up carrying her screaming to the car. That's when she threw, onto the rain-soaked ground, the beautiful doll MIL had just given her. I had to have mil and fil bring the other kids and our stuff outside.

You can imagine, I'm sure, the look on mil's and fil's faces. And then, of course, the phone call that came later. What happened? Does she do that often? Do you ever just give in? (what do you mean?) Do you ever just let her have one more time? Would that help? (um, HELLO!!!!!???? Yes, I do. I let her have one more time *three times* tonight, but that doesn't help. She'll keep asking for one more time.) I should add that mil does all this in a *completely freaked out* tone, because she has huge anxiety issues, and this freaked-outness does not help, now I have to reassure mil and frankly *I want someone to reassure me* thank you.

It was only a matter of time. It's always difficult leaving no matter how we problem-solve or make plans with dd ahead of time. No matter that we handle it in all the ways one is supposed to help kids transition. And much as I would love to stay until she's ready to go, we can't do that every time. And that is as much mil's and fil's choice as it is mine. So I'm left with no solution, beyond just not going over there anymore, and that just isn't right for any of us. Oh, and having them come here is no answer, because she has trouble when they go home from our house too.























I just would like one easy day. One day where every interaction is easy. I'm tired of trying to figure it out, what causes her to be unable to cope, what stresses I can alleviate, how to parent her. I'm tired of bending my imagination in a thousand directions to accomodate her issues. I'm tired of all this happening. I'm tired of everyone else suffering because of her demands, her moods, her inability to cope with anything remotely resembling adversity. I'm just tired.

Oh well. Just venting. It's another day and at least this one started out pleasant.


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## WuWei

Quote:

First episode of its kind outside of our home.
Sledg,








Well, I'll just send some empathy. This happens to us periodically too, not sure that helps. But, it sounds very hard for you to tolerate at the moment. Could you benefit from some self-care and connecting with what you wish it would be and mourn how it isn't the ease you want? Do you just want the end of a mentally weary and long day to *NOT* have one more challenge, one more 'yes, but', one more 'I'm not ready', one more 'I don't want to'.........and just get in the damn car already?!?!

Pat


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## Magella

yes.









Thank you.


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## Magella

Well, as expected mil called dh at work today. She's all freaked out about dd. (It was an amazing tantrum, I seriously doubt that the majority of kids who are about to turn 7 years old have tantrums like this-and she's had 3 this week. Though recently I've seen her have worse than yesterday's scene.) So mil is all "There isn't enough discipline." Yeah, that's it.







:







: Then "well, is she being molested?" and so on.

MILs.







: This is why I never talk to her about this stuff, though clearly not talking about it with her was a mistake because she was so shocked. She'll probably call her psychiatrist now and talk about us with him like she did when she saw dd masturbating as a little toddler. MIL needs to get a grip. (ETA that I know mil is worried about her granddaughter, I know. You'd have to know her to get why I'm irritated with her. But I sympathize with her too, I know it's hard to see a child you love freaking out like that and you want someone or something to blame or identify as a cause so it can be fixed.)


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## WuWei

Quote:

Do you ever just give in? (what do you mean?) Do you ever just let her have one more time? Would that help?

Quote:

So mil is all "There isn't enough discipline."
You are set up for being told "see I told you so...", one way or the other.









Glad she is so much help.







:

Quote:

This is why I never talk to her about this stuff, though clearly not talking about it with her was a mistake because she was so shocked.
Against my advice.







You will open yourself up to being undermined, imo. Armchair quarterback/MIL won't help anyone remain sane. Trust me on this one.









Do not own MIL feelings. She is shocked. Wow. Won't be the last time. We can not control our children. Any MIL who hasn't yet figured THAT out isn't one you want trying to control you and dh.

I'd thank her for her concern, help her to understand that dd has a hard time with transitioning from such fun to less fun. Has just started back to school where a lot of her life is scheduled, directed and it is HARD to leave grandma's fun house. She'll feel great, understand dd's perspective more and you'll gain brownie points for your compassionate and knowing response about your daughter's needs.

It'll be ok if MIL tells the psychiatrist that you all don't know what you are doing. ALL psychiatrists hear that from grandparents about their children.









Pat,


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
You are set up for being told "see I told you so...", one way or the other.









Yep. Sweet as she is (and she really is, that's not sarcasm), she sends all sorts of mixed messages so that she can always criticize. She'll say not enough discipline, even though the day before she criticizes us for too much discipline. Usually we don't get criticized (not to our faces, anyway), but when we do it's always a double-edged sword. So yes, talking to her to do anything other than reassure her is bad news. She takes a lot of things wrong, panics, leaps to the worst possible conclusion, doesn't really listen, doesn't understand what we're saying half the time, makes dire predictions, sends mixed messages.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Do not own MIL feelings.

I don't own her feelings. I just get tired of her dramatics. And of her butting in. Fortunately, we are usually able to do a pretty good job of "we understand your concern, we're handling it, dd/ds/dd2 has a hard time with.....this is what they need, and it won't last forever." I let her know how much research I do, how informed I am, and am not afraid to quote experts at her. She responds well to that. And I always do her the courtesy of listening to her concerns/advice politely, which satisfies her too. Mostly she thinks I'm a wonderful mother. Which is good, makes my life easier. I know what happens when she thinks a dil is not a good mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
It'll be ok if MIL tells the psychiatrist that you all don't know what you are doing. ALL psychiatrists hear that from grandparents about their children.

I'm sure they all hear it from all the grandparents!







It doesn't bother me that her psychiatrist hears about it, that was really a comment about her level of hysteria which drives her to talk about these things with him. She really freaks out.

I just feel to tired to deal with her hysteria. Dh and I often feel like the only adults when we're dealing with his folks, and we don't have the energy or desire to parent them too right now. It's all panic-control with them, and I think right now we'd both like some support. I love them dearly, but sometimes they're just too much.

Thanks, Pat.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*

I just feel to tired to deal with her hysteria. Dh and I often feel like the only adults when we're dealing with his folks, and we don't have the energy or desire to parent them too right now. It's all panic-control with them, and I think right now we'd both like some support. I love them dearly, but sometimes they're just too much.

Thanks, Pat.









Have you heard of my special recipe for "Mother's Tea"?







See, you make up this "special tea" with RESCUE REMEDY in it and you ask everyone if they would like to try this old secret recipe that you received from a friend.







Everyone will love it! And you'll actually have received their consent.








:

Seriously, it was invented for just this type of 'sharing'.

Pat


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## Bearsmama

sledg-Many, many,





















I would love for you to have an easy day. I think you deserve one (maybe even two! Gasp!). And I second scuba's suggestion of Rescue Remedy tea. But I'll tell ya, I think sledg needs a little something stronger right now









It's late, and bed is calling, but sledg, I think you're doing all that you can. And it's still so damn hard. I also wanted to tell you that I understand. I really do. I get it. I understand much of the IL stuff you mentioned and although Bears is only 4.6, we wonder how long this craziness will go on. I'm just sorry that you had such a lousy experience today and that your dd is going through such an awful time.

More soon...

Oh, and Dechen-Thanks for joining us here.







And I'm sorry you had such a rough time during your DC's infancy. It really did shape a lot of my interactions with Bears for a long time. I'm really thinking that a colicky infant (no matter how long it lasts, really) can adversely affect so much. And now perhaps we're realizing that even years later we haven't gotten over that trauma.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

Just posting for some moral support tonight. We have some good days with Bears and somehow feel that maybe he's mellowing out, getting better, learning to talk about his feelings, etc. Then, there are times like tonight, when he seems to resort to these old behaviors, almost out of habit (like so many other things we talk about on this thread). Tonight, our dinner started with me placing plates in front of the kids at the table and going back into the kitchen, where I can't immediatley see them, for a few moments to finish cooking the rest of the meal. My DH walks back into the dining room and sees my older son fling sourcream and pierogies across the room. Of course, my little one then does the same thing. Food on the windowsills, in the plant pots, etc. This puts DH over the edge. Shouldn't we be able to have 15 minutes of calm, good 'behavior', etc., at dinner, we ask? Of course, we know the answer to that.

Well, then Bears decides to leave the table. If he asks me to leave the table while eating, he can if he's done. But the up and down, wandering around, and then purposely spoiling the rest of our meal is what gets to me. He starts shooting rubberbands, pointing them at my face. 10 minutes later, after we're clearing plates, he starts flipping out, "Where's my meal?". We thought you were done (he had two pieces of the meal left on his plate). He then goes into grand-mal tantrum mode. Screaming, crying, hitting. The first hit was sort of a tap at my arm. I said to him, "I'm going to pretend that you didn't do that. Can I get you something else to eat, a piece of fruit, etc?" I wanted to make sure it wasn't about really being hungry. Anyway, then he comes at me from across the room with an open palm and slaps me HARD in the face. I grab him (gently, actually),and sort of scoop him up in my arms and carry him to his bedroom. I close the door behind me and he proceeds to trash his room, books everywhere, etc.

So anyway, we tried to just let him calm down, but he's like a predator sometimes, stalking us. I try to give him a hug, tell him I can hold him, he decides to kick at me. I tell him, I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but I don't like being hurt.

Anyway, it just gets so crazy here with him. Sometimes I get these glimmers of a maturing Bears, a happier Bears. We had loads of mommy and Bears time today, even more than usual. So, I can't even see a pattern. I just want to see a pattern sometime. Man.

Thanks for listening, mamas.

And Pat, I think my Bach's Holly is what got me through tonight's tantrum without completely losing my mind.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama* 

And Pat, I think my Bach's Holly is what got me through tonight's tantrum without completely losing my mind.









Oh mama, that is not strong enough. Here is some brandy.







I totally do not know how you kept your cool with being hit in the face. I'd have lost it. I am trying to get there. But, damn, being physically assaulted is my trigger. I am trying to see beyond the behavior. I just have







for now.









I am sorry you all are experiencing such anger tonight.

The only thing that I find a pattern about is food intolerances. Check into nutritional supplements too. There is a product called Natural Calm. It has magnesium. It really is critical and often deficient and related to our ability to cope with stress.

You can give Bears some Cherry Plum in juice, milk or water and it'll help him be more rational and in control of himself. (you know I hate dairy, the bane of our health, don't you?)










Pat


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## Bearsmama

Scuba-Well, I didn't say I I handled things _perfectly_, but I didn't go on a tirade, and I didn't say much that I regret. Which are two of my usual M.O.s. I did angrily tell him to never hit me again. Which doesn't really help him understand the WHYs of hitting/hurting people. I made it a bit about me this time. And heck, it WAS about me. Physical stuff is a HUGE trigger for me. HUGE. I have to actually say to myself when things like this have happened before, "Gentle hands, gentle hands". Meaning, I have to remember to watch how tightly I'm grabbing him, or moving him, etc. Sad to admit, but true.

About dairy-We don't do milk in our house (we have always used soy), but the kids both love yogurt (and I do, too). I remember reading YEARS ago part of a book my Marilu Henner (remember her?) about how awful dairy is to our systems. Clearly, she is not a nutritional guru, but she was the first person I remember to get my attention about dairy. I worry abotu Bears's nutrition all the time. He eats little protein, besides the yogurt. We are a vegetarian house and he is a very picky eater and will very rarely try new things. Very tough for us b/c I cook a lot and my DH and I are adventurous eaters and eat lots of different, veggie things. I often wonder about the right supplement for him. He eats peanut butter, some soy faux meats, but that's it for protein. And if you looked at him, it almost jumps out at me that he needs protein. Although I realize that there is controversy about this, too. We limit things with dyes, but I get worried about limiting dairy, b/c that would mean that his daily menu would shrink to pasta with butter, cereal with soymilk, pb&J, and maybe some apple slices.

Okay, total digression. I'm sorry.

Anyway, tonight we were laying in bed, reading stories, and Bears was still upset. Like finally letting down the barrier of WHY he was upset in the first place. He said he saw something scary in our neighbor's house (it was a poster of one of those body chart things. His friend has it in her room). Well, I remember being completely freaked out about body stuff as a kid, too. So, we talked about it, about how it's hard b/c we can't control what other people have in their houses, but that we can always look away, or choose to not look at things that disturb us for some reason. And that he can always talk to us about it. That sharing your sadness/fear is always the bravest thing you can do. Then, I also told him that I understood why he was uncomfortable with it.

Anyway, thanks for being here, ladies.


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## MsMoMpls

Hey dear Bearsmamma- Wow doesn't it all sound familiar? I strongly suggest you stop trying to find a pattern here... just because it is a way of feeling you have some control over what you have no control over. Think about it like a thunderstorm. Now of course thunderstorms are somewhat predictable but there are huge schools and technology and hundred of years of data that go into making those predictions... and they still aren't that accurate.

Bears is a system of chaos... even more than most of us are. The predictable thing is that if he blows- it is going to be you most often, he is going to explode and it is going to be aggressive. As much as you hate that, you can't keep acting like you are shocked. Of course he hits you. He is enraged and he has no impulse control. Think about what you would do to him in those minutes if you had no impulse control. I certainly know the thoughts that come to me aren't anywhere near loving and forgiving when I get smacked.

If you could completely remove the personal (and of course you can't) then you would handle these like a seizure. You would sit by him and hold him and keep him safe until it passed. You would understand that things might get messed up or broken, and in the mix, you might get bumped. I honestly think they are seizures.

All of this to really say what I always say- I think you are doing wonderfully, I think things do sound like they are getting better, you are way ahead of me when Nate was this age. Hang in there, enjoy the scotch and Bach essences... whatever it takes. This is a serious marathon.

More later- love and prayers for all parents of challenging children out there.
Maureen


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## Magella

Wow, Bearsmama, I admire how you handled it. I do. Staying calm is fantastic.

I wanted to say (and it's just a neat coincidence that Maureen mentioned doing this) that I have stopped trying to find a pattern to my dd's behavior. I don't think there's a pattern, I also don't think there's a cause that is under my control. I mean, I do know her triggers in a general way (meaning, we know that when something doesn't go the way she had in mind, odds are she's gonna blow. Or if she's anxious about something, she might blow), which is kind of a pattern, but I have stopped trying to find a cause that I can control or a pattern that will explain it all. Because that's so stressful, it takes the focus off of just dealing with it in the moment, it places so much focus on something that I cannot attain--which is control, or a "fix" for her problems, or both (do some foods seem to make things worse? Does lack of sleep make things worse? Does anxiety make it worse? Etc.? Yes. But those aren't the cause, those are stressors that exacerbate the problem. We can avoid them, and things can be better, but we'll still have problems). So I'm focusing now on just responding and modeling. Not on fixing. Only partially on understanding--in the sense of the "pathways" talked about in the explosive child, what skills does she have a hard time with (impulse control, staying calm, coping with anxiety, communication), not what makes her have a hard time with those skills. I'm working on connecting with her more, enjoying moments with her more, because that helps my attitude and behavior, which in turn helps her relax and not get so discouraged. And you know, I feel more relaxed.

Now, that's not to say we aren't working on anything. We are. When we can see that something's happening that will likely cause her to blow, or we can see her gearing up, or when we know in advance that a situation is coming in which she might blow, we work on problem-solving it with her. Once she begins to blow, we just do our best to stay calm and ride it out because it's rare that we can stop it. Have I told you that the math that was helping her so beautifully is now something that no longer works and maybe adds to the whole storm--"that's too easy" or "that's too hard" no matter what I say? So now I'm just back to staying calm, not talking and feeding into it (apart from letting her know I'm there to talk when she has calmed down). Sometimes she'll ask me to help her calm down, and then I know that I _can_ help her calm down. And then later on, after she's calmed down, we can address the problem. If she can't tell us ahead of time, she'll blow and she can't tell us what's up when she's melting down, so we have to wait until she's calm. The best part about handling things this way is that I'm so much calmer, so much more relaxed about it. And being just a calm presence seems to help her more than being a talking, problem-solving, analyzing, and sometimes anxious presence.

And you know, even though my dd's stuff hasn't gone away (and is sometimes really bad) she really has come a long way. It just doesn't stay all good and easy permanently. It's like Flylady says: Progress, not perfection. And in a zen sort of way, there is really only understanding in the moment (sometimes, sometimes there isn't even that) not some kind of understanding of the whole thing and all it's causes.

Anyway, that's my musing for the day. Big







to you.

And Holly is one of my Bach remedies too. Boy has that helped.

ETA that I saw something elsewhere, regarding living with challenging children, that living with these kids, parenting them, is like living with a big old pink elephant in the house. The elephant's right here in the house with us, we want it gone (maybe we don't even want to see it), but we can only get rid of it one spoonful at a time (and first we have to accept that it's in our house). Working hard, helping our kids a little bit at a time, slow and steady, marathon-style. Isn't that some saying from somewhere? When eating an elephant, eat it one spoonful at a time?


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## Bearsmama

Ah, my mamas, my mamas









Maureen-Your words, as always, as such a help to me this morning. I absolutely agree with you that I should stop acting shocked when this stuff happens, b/c, you know, it really ain't a shock! We've been dealing with Bear's challenging behavior since birth. And on an intellectual level none of his behavior is shocking. We've been hit, punched, kicked, spit at, yelled at, had many things broken, and been terrorized (that's the feeling, anyway) by his behavior for 4++ years. But I think on an _emotional_ level it still somehow feels shocking when it's happening. Like, a happy dinner can literally change in an instant. Not just into a normal tantrum, or "misbehavior" for lack of a better word, but from 0-60 in an instant. I am trying hard to not have any expectations. Really. And if stuff starts to happen at dinnertime it infuriates DH. He comes from a very food/meal oriented family. And although he understands that the kids will be kids, when Bears flips out at dinner, and literally no one can enjoy a bite of food, or any family time, it realllllllly irks him. DH and I also need to work on remaining calm. Taking it in stride. We often get caught up in the chaos ourselves and get into crisis mode. Which is hard not to do, but we sort of feed Bear's energy by doing this.

About two weeks ago we got the kids bunkbeds. We have been a co-sleeping family from the start, but we thought that having a cool bed would encourage Bears to sleep in his own space for at least a few hours/night. We have no expectation of the little one (he's just two) or even Bears, really, immediately warming to this idea. However, the good news is, they've been both starting out at night in the lower bunk together (upper bunk is off limits until they're older). Anyway, Bears has been waking at about 1am. Fine. But last night (like many other nights since this started), he yells for me, I enter his room, and he says, "I need you". And I say, "Okay, sweetie, come into the big bed", and he starts to scream bloody murder. I tell him calmly that I cannot sleep with he and his brother in a bunk bed, it doesn't work for any of us. But that he can just come into our bed. He was screaming so loudly that I had to grab the little one and bring him in our room. I said again to him, "Come on in". And he continues to cry and scream and then when he finally gets to our bedroom, he kicks, punches, screams, squirms, at us. Fun, fun, fun.

This morning, he pinched his finger on a toy and he literally cried for about an hour. He was still whimpering and holding his hand on the way to preschool. There's clearly something going on with him right now. I think he is getting a cold and doesn't feel well. He's a bit sniffly.

Sledg-







I agree with you about trying to enjoy the good moments with our CKs. And yesterday we had loads of snuggly, sweet, playful moments. That's why, I guess, that I didn't see last night's storm coming. But there's another comment about expectations, right? I should expect nothing. I know that, I'm just trying to learn it in my heart.

And yes, this is a marathon. I think I've said this before here that I had a professor in college who had this quote above her desk. It actually was a real picture of what should have been a race finish line banner, but instead it said, "There is no finish line". And really, there isn't.

More when I can, mamas. Much love to you both and the rest of the great mamas here.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama* 
We've been dealing with Bear's challenging behavior since birth. And on an intellectual level none of his behavior is shocking. We've been hit, punched, kicked, spit at, yelled at, had many things broken, and been terrorized (that's the feeling, anyway) by his behavior for 4++ years. But I think on an _emotional_ level it still somehow feels shocking when it's happening. Like, a happy dinner can literally change in an instant. Not just into a normal tantrum, or "misbehavior" for lack of a better word, but from 0-60 in an instant. I am trying hard to not have any expectations. Really.

Is it possible to have *no* expectations? I think maybe my best days are when I don't try to have _no_ expectations and I don't have expectations that are really fantasies about how I'd like things to be, but when I have realistic expectations. My best days are when I'm aware that anything can happen, and I have some sense of what's typical (including the typical unpredictability and sudden change of mood), and I have some strategies at hand to cope with whatever may come up--for managing whatever situation arises and mostly for managing myself. And yk, as my expectations become more realistic and I give up more of my fantasies, it all does start to feel less shocking. It's so easy for me to have a good day with dd and then start to think that maybe now everything is wonderful and will stay that way at least for the rest of the day, but that's not really realistic given her history. It's a fantasy. And when I cling to that fantasy, that's when I get shocked. So when I can let go of that, and just enjoy the good moments without attaching the fantasy (whether the rosy fantasy or the doom and gloom fantasy) to it, I have an easier time staying calm when things change suddenly. And likewise, when the difficult moments do come, if I can deal with them without attaching the stories to it (oh, this is so terrible, so shocking, will it ever get better, I can't take it anymore, I'm miserable, she's so unpredictable I can't stand it...) then it's easier to remain calm, respond more helpfully, and recover from it quickly. Less shocking doesn't mean it's always less exasperating though.

The waking up and screaming thing stinks. There is little worse than dealing with that in the middle of the night. Dd had a whopper of a night last night (actually, most nights for a couple of weeks she's been screaming in her sleep starting at about 11:40 pm, but it usually doesn't last too long). For a few hours, off and on (starting at 11:46), she just yelled and screamed in her sleep. Calling for Daddy, yelling at her brother, all sorts of noise both words and nonsense. Woke her sister (who shares the room), woke us, woke her brother. It was awful. But despite her calling for us, she is not awake when this happens. Can't talk to her, she'll get worse. Nothing we can do. So we're all very tired today. And you know, she's been like this since just before she was a year old so it's really not surprising but _every time_ we're like "can you _believe_ what an awful night she had?"







Humans. We're a funny bunch.


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## Bearsmama

sldeg-So funny what you & DH say after one of your DD's bad nights. We do the exact same thing.

I have much more to say (as always!







), but not much time...

OH, the piece about the nighttime trouble we had last night with Bears I left out was the kicker. This morning he said to me, "Mommy, last night you left me in my room allllll alone". Which 1) Was not the case. AND 2) So ironic, b/c he's so worried about being left out of things, or not being with us, but when I try to include him, try to comfort him, try to bring him into our bed, he lashes out, hits, kicks, punches. And then of course, it's all MY fault in the morning. Mothering's a b$*ch!


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## gaialice

Sledg, you comforted me so many times and given me so many good ideas that I could not read your post about your MIL and not send hugs, although it is a bit late (15 days late) ....






















It stinks to be criticized... I get criticized sooo much..

The thing is to (try and) parent without rewards and punishments is like creating a bubble of anti-culture. It is bound to get reactions from others. We need to stay secure in our bubble and expand it through friends and through mothering.com. It is really hard. I got this idea from a link I got from another mom (AmyMN) on this forum recently.

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dgn/intro
(click on "needs and desires")

The link deserves a discussion of its own and I would like to start one, when I have the time to organize my thoughts about it.

But anyway, returning to your MIL, the fact that your dd NEVER threw a tantrum in her presence before is huge and should really send MIL a strong message that you are doing a terrific job parenting your children! It is not true 7 yo do not throw horrible tantrums. You should see my niece when it is time to do her homework...

You know your idea of additions really worked with my dd for awhile and then now it does not work any more.. now we are on another trigger "talking in reverse" (like please do not put on your shoes b'se it is not yet time to go home) We are also doing a lot of "exceptions".. like there are some "rules" in our house














:







and when we have a hard time with them we "make an exception" and we have a good laugh... I have noticed this actually and to my surprise reinforces the rules rather than bending them...

I lurk on this thread a lot but never post... thanks everyone who does and bearsmama for starting it and contributing so many good ideas it is my favorite thread..


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## Magella

Thanks so much, gaialice.







I'm actually, after taking a nice long break from the ILs, going to give it a go tomorrow (providing all the kids are feeling reasonably good and are not overly tired). I'll bring with me my mental bubble of supportive friends and family. And I'll do my best "bean dip"-ing. (familiar with "bean dip"?: "how's she sleeping?" 'oh, fine, thanks, want some bean dip?' "has she been having tantrums?" 'oh, she's doing fine, have you tried this bean dip?')

I like your idea of "exceptions." I might have to give that a whirl. And thanks for letting me know that other 7 year olds still have tantrums. That does help.

Bearsmama, my dd is currently blaming me for everything as well. "you didn't let me put my shoes on! It's your fault!" (wtf??? It was my idea for you to get your shoes on, and I did try to help you do that.) "It's your fault, you ruined it and now we don't have time to finish!" (wtf??? you just had a 50 minute tantrum despite my best efforts to help, and it's MY fault that now it's too late to finish??)


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## WuWei

The "it's your fault" is a colloquilism. Don't let your childhood baggage give it more meaning than 'it is just a phrase', or else you give it power.







Ask for clarification of meaning, examples of concern, address the underlying need. Perhaps, she wanted a different pair of shoes? "You aren't ready to go" could be the response to 'you ruined it.....'. By offering (instead of telling) another way to look at it, perhaps, she'll assume positive intent next time. Maybe not. But becoming defensive doesn't address the underlying issue that prompted the 'it's your fault'. The phrase has power to incite in our culture. It is something that I see our son gleaming from the tv. We don't use the phrase in our home. Ever. But, he is 'trying it out' to see what context elicits the reaction that he has observed elsewhere. Treat it like a 'dirty word'.







Fault and blame serve no purpose....it is like the lettuce. So, don't get caught up in the process of feeling defensive, the "fault" doesn't have power. Understanding has power.









HTH, Pat


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## WuWei

Hey all, I wanted to extend an invitation to check out our Consensual Living yahoogroup. We discuss a lot of creative problem solving that honors each's needs: children and parents.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/

Pat


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## Magella

Can't speak for anyone else, but personally I get the whole "it's your fault thing." I think "It's your fault" is not much different than a child saying "I hate you", it's just an expression of feelings they don't know how else to express. Handy words. I actually just think it's...well, I was going to say funny or amusing but that doesn't sound right. Because it's not really funny when it's happening, when dd says it she's hurting or angry and I do feel for her. (And when she does this, most of the time I handle it without reacting to that phrase and instead do the empathy thing.) I don't actually take that phrase seriously at all (in the sense of giving it power and taking it personally, it is usually a serious attempt at communication) coming from her or anyone else.

I guess it's just that at some point you've gotta laugh. This gets so exasperating. It really does. And so at some point I have to just lighten up and laugh at the whole situation, post about it in commisseration and tell someone about that little "wtf??" internal dialog that you don't take seriously but that nevertheless happens. Not because I take pleasure in her pain or mine, but because sometimes you need to take it a lot less seriously and find a way to laugh. I have to find the lightness and joy and humor in it in order to keep on going.

eta that it really is a good reminder, though, Pat. What you said applies to a lot of other things too, I realized as I read it.

Warm squishy







s to all you ladies today. You are my lifeline sometimes. Okay, often.


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## WuWei

sledg,

I believe I hear you saying the "absurdity" of the meaning of the phrase ("It's your fault!") in context to your actual efforts is





















: crazy-making. And one has to laugh or go insane? The raw intensity of her feelings is so "real" that it could sting, but the idea of her 'faulting you' seems...... (*ridiculous* is the word that keeps "fitting" here)?

I misread you to be _hurt_ by the phrase and wanted to offer suggestions at diffusing the impact of the words. I am hearing that you understand them to be expressions of feelings without reacting to them personally. I have a tough time stepping back and observing without evaluation when ds says/does some things which are 'hot buttons' for me. Like the hitting that Bearsmama experienced. I feel 'wounded'. For me, it takes a lot of effort to *be*, without reacting to this experience. When I 'rationalize' it, I am more able to be in the experience without feeling 'triggered'. I see that you already have the perspective to just sigh, breathe and laugh......

I need to do that more: "Just smile", as Thich Nhat Hanh suggests.









Pat


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama* 
I believe I hear you saying the "absurdity" of the meaning of the phrase ("It's your fault!") in context to your actual efforts is





















: crazy-making. And one has to laugh or go insane? The raw intensity of her feelings is so "real" that it could sting, but the idea of her 'faulting you' seems...... (*ridiculous* is the word that keeps "fitting" here)?

Yes, that's a good description. There is a lot of wonderful absurdity and ridiculousness here, which is good.

I can totally see why you read me as being hurt by it. I used to think I had a wonderful (okay, pretty good) command of the english language, but the older I get the more I realize that I often communicate in ways that are clear to me but clear as mud to others (or maybe it's just this whole written internet communication with it's lack of physical cues, or my sleep-deprived brain, or the human tendency to mostly perceive things through the lens of our own experiences, etc.). I also have this feeling that my last post sounded defensive, when I wasn't feeling that at all. I am very grateful for and deeply appreciative of your sharing of advice and perspective, and though I wasn't so much in need of suggestions for diffusing the impact of those particular words, I actually did find your words very helpful as applied to some of my hot-button issues that do leave me feeling sort of wounded.


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## Magella

One more thing...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama* 
I have a tough time stepping back and observing without evaluation when ds says/does some things which are 'hot buttons' for me. Like the hitting that Bearsmama experienced. I feel 'wounded'. For me, it takes a lot of effort to *be*, without reacting to this experience. When I 'rationalize' it, I am more able to be in the experience without feeling 'triggered'. I see that you already have the perspective to just sigh, breathe and laugh......

I need to do that more: "Just smile", as Thich Nhat Hanh suggests.









What I want to say to this is "seriously??" The reason I feel the urge to say this is that I picture you as this very calm, serene, smiling, unflappable kind of mother. Like a bodhisattva (spelling?) of compassion, and brimming with equanimity. I realize that no one is like that all the time, but it's always both surprising and kind of comforting to hear you say things like this.

No particular point beyond just sharing that. And I can't actually say why I want to share that right now, but I share it with love.


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## emblmrgrl

Just wanted to drop in quickly this morning and say hello to you all ... it's been a few weeks since I've been able to post but as always, I'm trying to keep up with the reading.

We are in a really really good place right now. I don't know if it's the plethora of activities, his wonderful teacher, the concious effort I've made to just relax, or the combination of all that has made this possible but whatever it is, it's working for the time being.

I don't recall exactly where I read this, but something struck me a few weeks back that I just wanna share. I seem to think I read it on someone's blog. Anyway though, the writer was talking about her challenging child and how she felt so much pressure to fix things, the way many of us have described. She was very open about her child and I kept thinking how much she'd enjoy our thread







But she went on to say that she finally realized that as the mother of this child, it was not her job to fix him. It was her job to guide him through his life ... to help him. I read that and felt as though I'd been smacked on the head. I spent so much time trying to fix Cole. And although I had managed to change how I looked at things in many ways, some of those feelings I couldn't shake. From that minute though, I have felt differently. We have still had some moments but we're just experiencing them and going on. So maybe it's really been more about me all along ...

Of course right now we have so many other things happening. It will be interesting to see if the good times continue past the football season. Which he adores, by the way. It has truly helped him in a way I could not. Same with his teacher. And, I think the fast pace of our schedules right now is helpful to him as well. His brain moves at such a rapid pace it has always been a challenge to keep up with him!

At any rate, I hope everyone is doing well. I shall return when I get another minute ... hugs to everyone.


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## WuWei

Here is one of my favorite articles about not trying to "fix" our child. It is called "I AM WHAT I AM", by Anne Ohman. http://sandradodd.com/special/anne

Pat


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
One more thing...

What I want to say to this is "seriously??"

Yes. For me, it takes a lot of effort to *be*, without reacting to my experiences. I grew up living in fear, it was used as a means of controlling me. I see now how I allowed Fear to invade, infect, consume and control me even as an adult. The paradox is that *I* chose Fear. Choosing to live my life with Trust is a struggle, everyday. But, it is getting easier the more I focus on living in the moment, not fearing the future, nor regretting the past. Living mindfully brings me joy instead. Trust is a choice. Fear is a choice. This awareness has changed my life. But, it is hard to Trust when I am triggered by physical impact. I work to observe without evaluation in order to try to understand, instead of react.

Being aware in the moment to Breathe, Pause.........

is work.









Pat


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 







Well, as expected mil called dh at work today. She's all freaked out about dd. (It was an amazing tantrum, I seriously doubt that the majority of kids who are about to turn 7 years old have tantrums like this-and she's had 3 this week. Though recently I've seen her have worse than yesterday's scene.) So mil is all "There isn't enough discipline." Yeah, that's it.







:







: Then "well, is she being molested?" and so on.


Oh for goodness' sake! I'm sorry you now have to deal with your MIL I'm sure she does mean well but it can't be helpful.


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## Imogen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama* 
Here is one of my favorite articles about not trying to "fix" our child. It is called "I AM WHAT I AM", by Anne Ohman. http://sandradodd.com/special/anne

Pat

Wonderful article, I loved it.

Thank you


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## Magella

Jennifer, I'm glad things are going so well for you and Cole right now. That's wonderful. And I get what you say about not trying to fix it. I'm finding that trying to fix is a hard habit to break, though.

Pat, I love what you said. I have learned to live in fear too, and that is hard to learn not to do. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

We are currently having a lesson in living without living in fear of the future, and it is one of those moments in life when for just a moment everything stops and you are thrust, ever so briefly, into just the naked present. And on the heels of that, you find yourself jumping into the what-ifs and all the possible outcomes and what they would mean. Then you realize you can't do that. The past is gone, and the future is completely unknowable--to dwell on either is to lose right now. So what you have is just now. And we have to figure out how to live in it, and with the fear. What has happened is that my much loved mil has found a lump in her breast. She has a terrifying family history of breast cancer, all her sisters have it, two have died, two are still living with it. Her mother had it. Her father died of cancer, her brother has cancer. Odds are, this lump is cancer. But we don't know, and won't know for....I don't know how long. And once we do know, we still won't know what the future holds. So we learn to live right here right now with the uncertainty of it all, not clinging to the hope that all will continue just as we like it indefinitely or forever and also not clinging to the fear of the worst possible scenarios, getting comfortable with the transience of everything.


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## Magella

I wanted to share this quote because it really speaks to what I am more and more aware of as time goes on. It really sums up what I'm learning about being the parent of a challenging child, who is really only challenging in that she challenges me to grow.

"If we can wake up, we will see that we cannot separate self from other. We cannot separate restraint from self-restraint. We cannot separate respect from self-respect. We cannot separate discipline from self-discipline....

...My child will do what I do and say what I say, but she will never, without coercion, do what I say. How I wish that every single time she could watch me calm down, cool off, take responsibility and solve the problem. Only then can she learn to do likewise.

I once read a doctor's advice on dealing with a thumb-sucking problem..Wear a rubber band on your arm, the doctor said, and snap it sharply against your wrist anytime you _think_ about hounding your kid to stop sucking his thumb. Discipline seems to work on this principle, too. Turn everything on yourself _first_ and then take stock of whatever problems remain. There won't be nearly so many." -Karen Maezen ******, _Momma Zen_


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## 4evermom

That's a great quote!

I think dh is finally starting to understand what our "normal" is. Whenever I leave him at home with ds for a couple of hours, he tells me how awful everything was while I was gone and how relieved he is that I am home. When he comes home from work and asks how our day was, I tell him it was a good day because ds was just on the edge of going out of control all day, but didn't actually lose it. Things like banging his feet on the entire trolley ride, shouting the entire wait at the subway stop, and otherwise endearing us to the other passengers (yes, minor sensory issues but try explaining that to the average Philadelphian!).

I think one reason ds isn't quite as challenging as others on this thread is he doesn't get unreasonably angry, just very grumpy! But it makes all the typical advice about what to do when your child is attacking you pretty useless. I can't redirect him into expressing his anger in different ways because he isn't actually angry. It's some combination of discontented, wanting excitement, and teasing. Staying calm when a 5 yo is throwing hard objects at you, or hitting and biting, is pretty impossible. Especially because the smallest amount of response on your part fuels his excitement and escalates it.

I usually understand how ds thinks, which is a godsend. I had good unconditional parenting which helps me pass it along. Dh has a MUCH harder time because when ds hits him, he can't help but think "my dad beat me up, now my son is." Major trigger for dh. Interesting fireworks for ds.

I just finished reading Raising Cain (







) and passed it along to dh. I think he will find it helpful.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
I'm trying to catch up with all the recent posts. It's been a while since I checked in. I've missed this thread. There has been some GREAT stuff posted by sledg and scuba (Pat-hey new user name!).

I have a specific question tonight. How many of your CKs (Challenging Kids) have sleep disturbances? We are currently trying to get Bears into his own bed on a full-time basis. We are long-time co-sleepers, but we feel it's time to try to encourage him to sleep in his own space for at least part of the night. He's had his own room forever, with a bed in it and everything, but just recently we've started try to get him to sleep in it consistently. Okay, apart from the fact that he is going through this change, we realized this week that Bears has NEVER really slept through the night. There is always some sort of wake-up, many times a traumatic wake-up that is usually a night-terror sort of thing, or a milder form of this where he is just grumpy and sometimes mean, but won't accept help.

So, I guess this isn't "normal", right? Like shouldn't he, at almost 5 yrs. old be getting more solid sleep? We've just dealt with it for so long that it's our normal, really.

I'll be catching up here. Thanks, ladies, for continuuing the conversation.


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## The Lucky One

I haven't posted on this thread in forever, I'm mainly just a lurker anyway, but about the sleep thing, YES, I think CK's are very prone to sleep problems.

It's funny, because in my 4+ years of visiting message boards (this one and another or two) I can always spot the future CK's by the mother's who consistently post about sleep troubles in their young babies. I have tracked the progress of several kids, mostly boys, whose mothers were at their wits end over sleep when they were very young and about 95% of the time the kids turn out to have the spirited, high-needs, CK personality. Very interesting.

Even though I'd only give my ds1 a 'ranking' of about 6-7 on the high needs scale, he has been plagued with sleep difficulties since birth. Even though now he doesn't wake up through the night, he is *the* most restless sleeper I have ever encountered. The only way we have been able to sucessfully co-sleep with him is to have two mattresses on the floor. He has one and the rest of us have the other. I am dead serious when I say that there probably isn't a square inch of that bed that he doesn't use every single night. (and it is a queen!!!)

My 2.5 year old tosses and turns some, but generally stays within a small space and his head is always at the top of the bed. That is normal. Ds1's sleep habits have never ever been normal. As a matter of fact, we have a small family weekend trip planned for a few weekends from now and dh is already complaining and dreading having to share a motel bed with him. I am seriously considering buying an Aerobed or something, so dh can get at least a partial nights sleep while we are gone.

(((hugs everyone)))


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## MsMoMpls

No time today... I'll check in later but check out this book-
Sleepless in America: Is Your Child Misbehaving...or Missing Sleep?
by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka I think it is just coming out in paperback.

I haven't read it yet... I know I shouldn't recommend stuff I haven't read but she is the one who wrote all the Spirited Kid stuff and she has completely switched her attention to sleep disturbance. I actually sent my first kid to a full blown sleep study because nothing else was making any sense.

I believe (as a sleep deprived momma) that there is nothing more important to mental health than sleep.

More later,

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Hi TLO! I have the same experiences in my life about other kids with sleep issues, too. Very interesting.

Hi Maureen-I think sledg mentioned this book, too. I have to look into it. I have a therapist friend who says that the first thing that she asks her clients who present with mild-moderate depression symptoms is how much sleep are they getting. I absolutely agree that it is so integral to our mental (and physical and spiritual health). That said, I have not taken good care of myself in the sleep department since having children. Not like Bears has LET me do this, but even when I *could* have slept when he was a baby I preferred to stay up and get something done, or relax with my DH.I still do this. I don't look forward to sleep in the same way that I used to pre-kids and pre-co-sleeping. My bed isn't the haven it used to be, that sleep-promoting spot. I think if I want Bears to sleep more regularly I have to start taking better care of this part of my life. Last week the lack of sleep really caught up with me. I was feeling like I had a newborn again. And getting very grumpy and sort of depressed. It's a cumulative thing, too, and I know I'm not getting back any of the sleep I lost over the past almost 5 years. So I better start now.

More later, mamas. I've missed you all. Hugs to you Maureen.


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## 4evermom

My ds has never slept through the night, either. Sometimes I sneak out of bed for an hour in the early morning, only for an hour because that is the longest it takes for him to wake up because he can't feel me. He is usually angry at me for not being there (although dh is). My problem is that I get insomnia regularly and start to get really uncomfortable lying down but not sleeping (indigestion or something, don't know why it is lying while awake and not lying while sleeping that it is a problem). I definitly prioritize his sleep needs because it makes a big difference. I also prioritize MY sleep needs. I used to take naps when he did (I had to lie with him anyway). I think that I have heard that it is about age 5 when kids' sleep matures and they start sleeping better. I think the easy going kids probably wake up, too, when young, they just don't wake everyone else up every time.


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## maryjane

Wow.

I have spent many nights over the last several weeks working my way through this post. What a catharsis. It was like therapy!!!

Bearsmama, thank you so much for starting this post and for your brutal and love-filled honesty. While I don't recognize all of my son in your son, I recognize much of myself in your words about yourself, and I am so appreciative of your candor -- about all facets of yourself and your relationship(s).

Thank you to everyone for sharing and for revealing the truth (your truth) of raising your CK. I have learned SO much!

My oldest son (40 months) is my CK. I also have DS2, who just turned one. With DS1, I don't think I would have called him C until he turned three. Sure he was the worst sleeper I've ever heard of (IRL). But he was happy and easy-going (you know, assuming he was being held or nursed... self-entertaining was NOT his thing) and really sweet and social. He started showing signs of some aggressive behavior when he turned two, after his brother was born. But his behavior still felt mostly normal. Of course, as DS2 got a bit older, I realized just how much interaction DS1 had required from me as a baby -- by comparison.

And then DS2 turned three, and it was like the damn broke. Just in the past month, the temper tantrums have somewhat subsided, but it was like a serious hurricane for us. Now we're at a tropical storm







. I was that mother with the raging child in the super market, mall, playground, trying to remain calm as my child was attempting to suck the oxygen out of the surrounding 2-mile area... or so it seemed.







:

He is behaving very aggressively again. With us, at preschool, with friends. I'm constantly on guard and it is exhasuting. I try not to hold the reigns so tightly -- bc I know it causes so much friction between us (and within me) -- but then he hurts someone. And I hate -- HATE -- the worry that comes with his behavior. The worry of what his friends' parents will think of him, and of us as parents. The worry that one day his friends won't brush off his pushes/hits/kicks/hair pulls and they'll stop wanting to play with him. The aggression also pushes my buttons in the worst way, and I find that all my good intentions for discipline are often flying out the window.









He continues to be a poor sleeper. There was a brief period -- from 18-28 months, where he slept alone (in his crib), but other than that, he's been in bed with us. And for the last year, he usually needs to be touching me -- both to fall asleep and to stay asleep. It's so draining (not that I need to tell you mamas). I feel so bad for the baby, too. He was happy to sleep in his crib, so we didn't really cosleep much after 6 months. In fact, these days, he WON'T sleep unless he's in his crib. I worry that he's gotten pushed aside by the much "bigger" -- and certainly more visible and vocal -- needs of his big brother. I heard that in some of what you all wrote, and it is reassuring to see that the family dynamics will work themselves out in most cases, with a lot of love and at least a little bit of mindfulness (on the part of the parents).

I guess I'm blathering on now. I have so many thoughts and feelings as a result of this wonderful post. Mostly, though, I want to say, again, THANK YOU.


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## Pam_and_Abigail

This is such a long thread, I don't know if I could ever read it all, but I think I belong here. My oldest dd is 4 and having agression issues, they've been going on for a couple years now. I'm really struggling with it, as we are all.


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## Mommy&Will

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail* 
This is such a long thread, I don't know if I could ever read it all, but I think I belong here. My oldest dd is 4 and having agression issues, they've been going on for a couple years now. I'm really struggling with it, as we are all.

Hi! I also have a four-year-old.







: Its been crazy for awhile but (dare I say) we are having more and more good days around here lately.

DS has had a hitting streak - usually toward his brother for a long time. I don't know what others would think about this tactic but thought I'd share what helped around here a little. One day DS #1 did his usual hitting thing - we were around other people, I remember. I suddenly just blurted out (matter of factly, not accussingly) - "Will, four year olds don't hit." I guess I said it kinda loud because everyone stopped and looked at Will. It was like he kind of "woke up" a little. He just said, "they don't???" like he was completely surprised by that news! It broke the intensity in that situation, and his hitting truly started subsiding more and more after that.


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Newbies and Old-timers.

I am all about "What we resist- persists" this week. We have to be the calm- the port in the storm, the love, the space for our children to spring from. All we can do is love... love more... love. There are always storms, but when they pass, we have to be able to pick things up and get back to the love as quickly as possible.

More later,
Maureen


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## maryjane

Quote:

"What we resist- persists"
Maureen, throughout this post, you have given these amazing little kernels -- seeds of truth and insight. And this one actually made me say outloud, "YES!"

I know this to be true, in my head and in my gut. And yet (and yet!), I persist. I am still trying to "fix" him. I can't seem to get my heart and my hands to agree with my head on this one.

When you have time, I would love to hear you (and anyone else!) talk more about this. How does one really get this truth to sink into reality? How do you actually stop resisting?

[Forgive me for just jumping in with both feet into this post. I know it's sort of anti-board-protocol for a newbie to make herself right at home, but I feel compelled to connect with you all after reading this post!]


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 

When you have time, I would love to hear you (and anyone else!) talk more about this. How does one really get this truth to sink into reality? How do you actually stop resisting?

You might check out The Law of Attraction: http://www.thrivingnow.com/for/Healt...f%20Attraction I find it changes my reality toward the positive. I don't understand it logically, but empathically it works. Read the specific examples on the two pages and you will be surprised. It was true for me.

Quote:

[Forgive me for just jumping in with both feet into this post. I know it's sort of anti-board-protocol for a newbie to make herself right at home, but I feel compelled to connect with you all after reading this post!]
Someone forgot to mention this to me too.









Pat


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## MsMoMpls

I am so glad you both jumped right in- this tribe is all about the amazing wisdom of parents... why would you cheat us out of your contributions?

What I resist persists... Here is my example. I have been working on my own personal development through classes at Landmark Education (www.landmarkeducation.com) and every time they would ask us to take on an area of our lives that wasn't as powerful as we wanted it, I picked my marriage. Actually, in all honesty- I picked my husband. I gave away all my power by making it about him. Once I realised that I was actually resisting having a powerful, happy marriage... I just stopped. By letting go of having my husband be wrong and focusing on what an amazing man he is, and acknowledging what a fantastic life we are creating... it all shifted.

With my little ones I try and be all about cooperation and peace... at all times. My cooperation, my peace and theirs. Think about what Michaelangelo said about creating David... he just chipped away all the marble that wasn't David. Just see the beautiful child you have inside the raw material and only see the perfection of your child.

More later- thanks ladies for waking up my brain this morning.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,
MaryJane-














This board has held ME up. Seriously. I only started it. It's the wisdom and love and honestly from all the mamas here that has helped keep it alive. Thank you. Also, I think jumping right is a requirement on this thread!

Pam_and_abigail-Just support and love here. Keep reading.

Mommy&Will-You know, when I used to be very sensitive and careful about imposing this grown-up thing on Bears. Like the "you should just know better now", but lately some of this subtle pressure to act a little bigger, a little like an almost-5 year old has been working at odd times.

Pat-Thanks again for your wisdom on this thread and the link.

What we resists-persists. I've heard this before, it's stuck with me, and yet seeing it here, on our thread has really impacted me. Here's my dilemma--I keep coming up with acceptance as the word that describes the ONE thing I need to do in my life, with myself FIRST and my kids SECOND. But I get caught up with how do I change myself AND accept myself at the same time? Sounds stupid, I know. Change and acceptance seem like two different endeavors, really. Although I know one could impact the other. Hmmmmmmm?


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama* 
What we resists-persists. I've heard this before, it's stuck with me, and yet seeing it here, on our thread has really impacted me. Here's my dilemma--I keep coming up with acceptance as the word that describes the ONE thing I need to do in my life, with myself FIRST and my kids SECOND. But I get caught up with how do I change myself AND accept myself at the same time? Sounds stupid, I know. Change and acceptance seem like two different endeavors, really. Although I know one could impact the other. Hmmmmmmm?

I like "trust" even more than acceptance. Recently, there have been events that remind me that "acceptance" seems to have a sense of resignation, and change has a sense of wistful dissatisfaction with the present, rather than *trust* that all is as it is meant to be.

But, Trust is a hard lesson to learn as an adult.

Pat


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## Bearsmama

Wow, isn't it amazing how this thread moves and changes and grows all the time? And how now, it seems, that we're addressing parenting challenges that many of us face regardless of how challenging our kids are? Like I've said before, I think I'm a challengED parent...

Pat-Could you talk a bit more about the Trust thing? Can you trust that all is as it should be when things seem chaotic, or when one's action seem out of character, or not what one would want or see for themselves. How can we/I trust this? I feel lost sometimes with how to help myself, and then help my kids.


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## MsMoMpls

Acceptance... here is my two cents...

Nothing changes until it is accepted. We can't really work on anything until we are ok with it. Acceptance is just life is how life is... it isn't wrong or right, good or bad... it just is. From a place of acceptance, we can freely choose to be... whatever we choose.

For example... I was resisting my relationship with my husband, waiting for him to deal with his issue with anger. First I had to accept that my husband has an issue with anger... and it is fine.. it just is. All it means is that sometimes my husband yells when I wish he didn't. It doesn't mean he doesn't love me, it doesn't mean that we don't have a wonderful family or a great marriage... it just means that sometimes my husband yells when I wish he didn't. Once I accepted this I got to have what I want right now, a powerful, loving and open relationship with my husband. And in accepting that I also have the freedom to address his problem with anger. Addressing that from a place of love and openness and in a context of a powerful relationship is so much more powerful addressing it from a place of my husband being wrong and bad or our relationship being not great.

For most of us, we act as if we could be great mothers if only our anger would go away. Instead acceptance is saying that we are wonderful, powerful mothers who get angry. Not in spite of our anger. We are great mothers. We get angry. Accepting our anger as a part of the context of powerful mothering means we get to choose.

We are all perfect and whole and right where we are meant to be... on the journey. And our children are all perfect and whole and right and on their journey. From a place of perfection, there are just things to do. Ways to be. Patient and loving and firm and direct... whatever our children need us to be.

Get it? That is where I see the power of acceptance.

More later- love this thread.

Maureen


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## maryjane

It's weird how things that I'm anyway thinking about/working on keep showing up in this post!

As for acceptance... I am particularly awful about it when it comes to myself. And this

Quote:

We are all perfect and whole and right where we are meant to be... on the journey. And our children are all perfect and whole and right and on their journey. From a place of perfection, there are just things to do. Ways to be. Patient and loving and firm and direct... whatever our children need us to be.
really got to me. I wonder *why* it is so hard for me (and lots of other people -- especially women -- that I know) to accept myself. It almost feels like doing so would be boastful? I know that probably sounds really messed up, but sometimes I think that acceptance would end up in me resting on my laurels. So, I'm curious also how people simultaneously embrace acceptance and personal growth. Or perhaps the path to acceptance *is* the personal growth?

As for acceptance of my son, this is where I'm at now. For a very long time -- and still often times now -- I was so incredibly uncomfortable with how physical, rough and energetic (like out of control energetic) he is. I was one of those moms who said, for example, "No guns, no gun play, no swords, etc. etc." and then of course I got a child who engages in that kind of play. It's turned everything on its head for me. I've had to work really hard to accept that these impulses are "okay". That, yes, it needs boundaries and channeling, but in and of itself, it isn't "bad" that he is agressive and physical. Not sure if this is making any sense. I guess that's what I was referring to earlier when I said it pushes my buttons. I see him acting in aggressive ways sometimes and I get soooo upset -- I think disproportionately so to his actions. So, now I'm trying to separate the action from the impulse from the child... and working toward (1) accepting and loving the child unconditionally, (2) accepting and embracing the impluse, and (3) redirecting/disciplining/etc. the specific action when necessary. It's a very lofty goal for me, and I fall short often, but that's where I'm at.


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## Magella

: Seeking refuge on a difficult morning.

I am loving the "what we resist, persists" theme.

On acceptance, here is a quote that sums up how I view acceptance:
_
"When working with parents of children with special needs, I have been
amazed at the time, energy and money some parents have spent trying to
solve the reality of their child's handicap. They and their children
would have been a lot better off accepting the reality of the handicap
and putting the time, energy, and money into solving the problems that
came with the reality. If we can accept realities and solve the problems
that come with them, we will save ourselves a lot of grief and we will
teach our children how to view life with optimism and resolve."_ -Barbara Coloroso, _Kids Are Worth It_

To create change, to trust, to create happiness, to create peace, we must first accept the reality. We have to accept that this is what is right now. When we deny the reality, when we sit there and wish it were different and think of how we'd rather it be and blame someone/something/ourselves, we get stuck. My kids wake at night, therefore I wake up, therefore I am tired. If I'm accepting the reality that the kids wake at night, I can do something to solve the problem of being tired (note: the _reality_ is that they wake, the _problem_ is that I'm tired and not functioning as well as I could if I were more rested. The problem isn't that they wake). If I accept that they wake, I can go to bed early, I can take a catnap when my little one naps, I can make sure I'm eating well, I can ask for help from someone. I can do a lot to solve the problem, but as long as I'm stuck wishing away the reality and trying to change the reality then I'm still tired.

Similarly, I can accept the reality that my child has difficulty handling frustration and conflict in more effective ways than screaming and hitting, and from there work on solving the problems that come with that reality. I can be the scaffolding that supports her as she learns those skills, I can be there to protect my other kids, I can get help learning to help her, etc. And she will, I trust, learn. If instead I don't accept it, and this is where I get stuck too, then I'm stuck wishing she were different and not doing what she really needs in order for her to do better. It's the kind of subtle difference between trying to change her and accepting her as she is while trying to help her learn. Not accepting her is more about me and how easy I'd like life to be, while accepting her is more about her. And yet accepting her, and I am able to do that sometimes, really leads to _all_ of us being happier and growing more.

I like what Maureen said about accepting ourselves as mothers. So long as I refuse to accept the reality that I get angry and focus on thinking about how great a mother I would be if only I didn't [insert "bad" mothering behavior here], then I'm stuck. When I accept that these things are things I have done and angry is how I feel sometimes, they're not things or feelings that make me horrible, and also accept the reality of the good/effective things I do as a mother then I am free to grow and as Maureen said _to choose_ how to respond.

Acceptance isn't resignation, for me, it's just about recognizing and embracing reality. What makes the reality "good" or "bad" or "just what it is, neither good nor bad" is how we respond to it. It's easier said than done, though.

So anyone have tips on what to do in response to a child who is non-redirectably (can't even walk away b/c she follows, hitting) aggressive for half an hour, and who is getting pretty strong and is able to hurt people? She hasn't injured me, but it hurts and she _could_ injure my other kids. And she throws things, too, which is sometimes dangerous (depending on the item). This is not a frequent occurence, I should add. But I found myself at my wits' end this morning and was *this close* to locking her in the basement (I say basement b/c that's the only door in the house I'd be able to hold closed). I mean, WTF am I supposed to do with that kind of behavior while it's happening????? My other kids were scared, I was being pummeled and definitely not enjoying it and was very very frustrated. And sort of felt helpless. *I was calm, though, despite not knowing what the heck to do.* But despite being calm I felt like I wasn't handling super well. I did, when she really got to hitting me hard, restrain her for a minute. Then I just kept moving away and blocking. I guess there's no wonderful way to handle it, but it didn't feel like that was a particularly good way. I do not like restraint, btw, I just didn't know what else to do at that moment and did not want to allow myself to be hit anymore. Oh, and the triggers were that 1) her brother didn't do what she wanted him to do and 2) I stepped in between them to prevent her from hitting him. And she's tired and seems to have a slight cold, and is home today. I am doing my best to be proactive about all this, but sometimes she flips out despite all our best efforts. More fun in the sledg household.







:


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama* 
Pat-Could you talk a bit more about the Trust thing? Can you trust that all is as it should be when things seem chaotic, or when one's action seem out of character, or not what one would want or see for themselves. How can we/I trust this? I feel lost sometimes with how to help myself, and then help my kids.

Sigh. This has been MY journey. Thich Nhat Hanh has been my teacher. I highly, Highly, HIGHLY recommend







his book Peace Is Every Step. I don't know if it is in that book of his, but there is a saying "Forgiveness is when you quit wishing the past was different than it was." That concept of *knowing* that the past is *part* of my present, not directing or controlling my present, but inescapably a part of me and my present and future and knowing it is as it is meant to be. The awareness that the past isn't good or bad, it just Is What It Is. And that the present too, just IS. There is an aspect of fullness of awareness that the Whole Journey is valuable, even what I might perceive as stumbles and obstacles. That there isn't any part that could be different and still bring me to NOW. That Now is "good enough" _and more_, it is what my journey has created for me. Learning to appreciate and trust that NOW is a culmination of the past, and that it is merely a moment that is both fleeting and a part of the future. That seems so esoteric and philosophical; but there really is an Act of Trust that is involved in being *OK*, that *life doesn't need to be different than it is Right Now*. That the past was exactly as it needed to be; and Right Now is OK. And that the future will be exactly as it needs to be; and Right Now is OK. A sense of Safety? Fearlessness? Comfort? Faith? Acceptance? Knowing? Awareness and Trust.

Trust was missing in my childhood. Trust that *I* was OK. Trust that what happened *will be ok*. Trust that what could happen *will be ok*. Instead, Safety was conditional. The past caused me pain when I 'got in trouble'. The future had threats of 'or else'. Trust was impossible to a large extent because of the Danger and Pain associated with a million things that were Judged "Wrong". The whole concept of "That is wrong" (whatever "that" is) seems to be at a crux of creating doubt, angst, guilt, risk, fear. If instead, there were Understanding and Trust that _whatever happened was meant to be_; and that we could instead become Aware, instead of become Afraid of life, we w/could be Safe. The lack of confidence that *All is Well* perpetuates the Fear that Danger Looms around the corner, and danger is in the past and thus danger clouds the present.

It was/is an active Choice for me to *Choose Trust*, against my upbringing, our culture, my past experience. The amazing thing is that Trust has created more Peace than Fear ever did. My observation is that *I* perpetuated the Fear by Choosing Fear. The locus of control is mine. I can choose: Trust or Fear. The power to choose Trust amidst the chaos is hard, no doubt. But the Calm and Peace that Trust creates disolves chaos. Kinda like Rock, Paper, Scissors.









In practical terms, I become the Mountain of Trust that *All is Well*. (sometimes anyway, more often than not. But, it is hardest when I am tired or hungry.) I will create peace and calm with breathing and the silent mantra "It is going to be ok". Sometimes, it helps to hear "It is going to be ok" outloud. I have always said this to ds and it has a comforting aspect when he is physically hurt. Nowadays, he just yells 'bandaid'







and he has a Trust that 'it is going to be ok', without having it articulated. Same with me, now, when the chaos hits, and it does in our house too, of course, usually at about 5-6pm and again around 11pm, when we are all tired. Not everyday, if I connect with myself before those bewitching hours, and connect with ds before either of our downward spiral "to too tired to think", we can stave off the Tired-Binge-Into-Chaos. Again, this requires Awareness, Understanding and Trust.

Quote:

Can you trust that all is as it should be when things seem chaotic,
Be the Mountain of All is Well.

Quote:

or when one's action seem out of character,
Recognize that this is as it is meant to be and be aware that it is out of character.

Quote:

or not what one would want or see for themselves.
Recognize that this is as it is meant to be (a part of the journey based upon the past) and be aware that it is *part*, not the whole. Don't judge one for being who they are meant to be. There is a term "suchness". We all have our "suchness", it just is Who We Are. Not good or bad.

Quote:

How can we/I trust this?
By choosing to Trust that Calm and Peace will prevail. What is the alternative: acting livid, chaotic, crazy, angry, out of control, hysterical, lunatic? That doesn't settle the storm, in my experience. Our children learn how to settle the storm from our modelling. We need to model Trust that All is Well, then they will learn to Trust that All is Well, ime.

Quote:

I feel lost sometimes with how to help myself, and then help my kids.
I can only control Me. I can choose Fear of Chaos or Trust.

Thanks for the introspective question, I enjoyed the journey.









HTH, Pat


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
So anyone have tips on what to do in response to a child who is non-redirectably (can't even walk away b/c she follows, hitting) aggressive for half an hour, and who is getting pretty strong and is able to hurt people? She hasn't injured me, but it hurts and she _could_ injure my other kids. And she throws things, too, which is sometimes dangerous (depending on the item). This is not a frequent occurence, I should add. But I found myself at my wits' end this morning and was *this close* to locking her in the basement (I say basement b/c that's the only door in the house I'd be able to hold closed). I mean, WTF am I supposed to do with that kind of behavior while it's happening????? My other kids were scared, I was being pummeled and definitely not enjoying it and was very very frustrated. And sort of felt helpless. *I was calm, though, despite not knowing what the heck to do.* But despite being calm I felt like I wasn't handling super well. I did, when she really got to hitting me hard, restrain her for a minute. Then I just kept moving away and blocking. I guess there's no wonderful way to handle it, but it didn't feel like that was a particularly good way. I do not like restraint, btw, I just didn't know what else to do at that moment and did not want to allow myself to be hit anymore. Oh, and the triggers were that 1) her brother didn't do what she wanted him to do and 2) I stepped in between them to prevent her from hitting him. And she's tired and seems to have a slight cold, and is home today. I am doing my best to be proactive about all this, but sometimes she flips out despite all our best efforts. More fun in the sledg household.







:

I'll give this some more thought, but my first impressions are that she has an underlying need for more control and interaction with the siblings. Perhaps, she feels they "should" obey, comply with her requests? Did his non-compliance interfere with her choice of activites? Could some other solution meet both his needs not to comply and her need for whatever she wanted to occur? I don't know the particulars, like if he were standing in front of the tv blocking her view, or if he didn't want to play what she wanted to play. Those are two vastly different issues, the first is more him inciting her to engagement, the second more of a need for directing companionship, maybe. So, details help to isolate patterns of needs that could be trouble shooted with her through validation, imo.

I try to filter things through the premise that 'We try to control others when we feel out of control' and 'We hurt others when we ourselves hurt inside'. My passing query is do *you* express your emotions with words? This issue seems to be coming up a lot this week in many forums and venues for me. Having a vocabulary for my feelings is new ground from my childhood. We had "angry" and "in trouble". That pretty much covered both perspectives completely.







Parents were angry, we were in trouble. There wasn't any room for sad, upset, afraid (never acknowledged), scared; see, I still have a tough time giving words to emotions. This is something that I am working on doing more effectively. To articulate how I don't like xyz, not in a shaming 'shouldn't do that' or 'misbehaving' sort of way, but a personal boundary of 'That's not something I want to occur'. Again, without an ultimatuum, "expectation" nor "or else..." sort of way. For instance, do you say, the NVC stuff (OFNR) about hitting, pointing out your observations about the children's fearfulness, their discontent with playing when she hits, etc. Giving information about the impact of her actions, IN CONJUNCTION with the validation of her underlying needs and wants, of course. Discussing afterwards is often more effective, I find.

I agree with not wanting to restrain, standing between them seemed to escalate? Perhaps, empower the other child to use his words and suggest that he can move away instead of creating an obstacle between them. That is if the hitting hasn't started of course. I agree with moving between them to prevent the other child from being hit. It is a fine line. Giving information to empower both of them with words such as 'you want so and so to do such and such'. Of course, you may well be doing these things, the escalation doesn't need much to explode, especially when anyone is hungry. I frankly don't know how to keep everyone fed in our house enough not to have these type of conflicts, nonetheless three kids. But, I am learning to listen to myself and helping ds listen to himself. Dh is toughing it out with much facilitation, I am afraid. He doesn't do well late at night and gets irritable, when he could do self-care much earlier. Ds, I remind and facilitate. I am learning to put myself in the cue for self-care too.









Blocking the hits and expressing 'Wow! You are so angry. I want to help.' has helped to de-escalate here when the emotional overload kicks in here.

Do you think there is any disruption to your usual routine with her being hme that makes the other kids less receptive to "receiving" her being home? Like they like it when she is at school? Could she feel like a 'fifth wheel' at home since she is used to being at school? I know you mentioned transitions are hard for her, could you discuss the 'day off' in advance and create a 'plan' for the day so that she is not as 'off a schedule'?

I'll think some more.

Pat


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## Magella

Thanks, Pat. Let me see if I can paint a good picture for you of this incident and my dd's common issues. First, this morning's conflict was an issue of ds not playing the way she wanted him to play. This is common. The kids can be playing beautifully, so long as they're doing it dd's way, but as soon as one child wants to do something else or play differently dd becomes frustrated and aggressive. She, like all of us, likes to be in control. She is very inflexible in her thinking particularly when frustrated, and easily aroused to intense emotional reactions. She is also (seemingly) limited in her ability to control her impulses. She is extremely articulate when calm, but appears to lose most of her ability to communicate when angry or frustrated. She continues to have difficulty in general identifying and articulating her feelings. When she becomes aroused to the extent that she did this morning, she barely speaks, mostly shrieks and grunts. It's like watching someone become possessed, it's a dramatic change in her entire being--like an altered state.

Now, I try to do OFNR on a regular basis with her though honestly mostly I do it when a problem arises (but before she escalates) and we could definitely benefit from using OFNR across the day in all situations as practice. Likewise, I strive to approach conflict--particularly sibling conflict as this is the dangerous issue right now--with proactive Plan B a la Ross Greene/The Explosive Child. So it's lots of Empathy and Reassurance, Define the Problem (including in the case of sibling conflict the other child's feelings and concern), Invite the child (or all children) to Problem Solve (seeking realistic, mutually satisfactory solutions). I am working on doing much more proactive plan B and OFNR than emergency (once the problem has begun) Plan B/OFNR.

All this NVC and Plan B is really helping. It is, we are seeing baby steps progress (hers _and_ ours). The problem this morning was that 1) the children were out of the room I was in when the conflict began and 2) once I realized there was a problem and was headed to help she was already chasing ds with the intent to hit (visible intent, taking swipes while running and nearly making contact) and had already passed the point of no return. Anything I said or did at that moment would have been (and was) a trigger. This is a particularly difficult trait of hers: sometimes she escalates lightning-fast and there is no heading it off, and this can be in response to the most innocuous-seeming triggers, and even if she is not escalating lightning-fast it is not always possible to prevent her from reaching the point of no return. Once she reaches the point of no return, any verbal or physical interaction we attempt serves to escalate her shrieking, aggressive behavior.

Looking back on today, I see that if I had been in the room it's possible we could have resolved the problem before it reached that point. Sometimes, though, mom's gotta pee. I should also mention that we have been attempting to create a plan together, dd and I, for those times when she is frustrated because her siblings will not do what she wants. The plan has to be simple, so we've most recently come up with "walk away, get mom." The problem is that she "doesn't remember" to walk away. I suspect that she becomes very frustrated very quickly and impulse control is just not there. So I have to be there to somehow remind her. But it's a fine line to walk, because once she begins to become frustrated she might be receptive to my help or my attempts to help might tip her over the edge. I am also working with my other children on problem solving with her, doing OFNR and Plan B. I'm working on helping them use their words assertively. I am also working with the siblings, ds in particular, on not teasing/annoying/instigating (that was not today's issue, though). I am also working hard at expressing my feelings with words so that she learns to do the same. I'm working at using a variety of words, and at expressing the needs/reasons behind my feelings and at making specific requests (and being flexible, looking for mutually satisfactory solutions--want flexibility, model flexibility right?).

I think that I have a good handle, intellectually, on what needs to be done to prevent these episodes and to teach her the skills she needs. I do need practice, and am definitely muddling through learning as I go. (bonus: I'm going to a day long workshop by Ross Green in a couple of weeks on collaborative problem solving/parenting the explosive child.) But I think we're doing better despite the fact that I am still definitely struggling with my own behavior/perception/etc.

The problem, today, was that here was this child in full-blown meltdown who was way past the point of being calmed--anything I did or said served only to escalate--and she was being aggressive to the point of being dangerous. I was able to keep my other children safe by sending them upstairs, but I did have to block dd's access to the upstairs (which she didn't like, was a trigger). And there was the issue of being hit and kicked, pretty hard, by my 7 year old strong dd. Walking away didn't stop the hitting and kicking, speaking to her was making it worse. In response to anything resembling "you're angry, let me help" there is only more shrieking, more hitting and the occasional bonus "I hate you! You're bad!" (Actually, I was celebrating the "I hate you"s because at least when she says that she's telling me something about how she feels rather than just grunting at me-that is so rare though.)

So I guess my real question is: how am I supposed to keep us all safe when she's totally out of control and talking to her results in escalation? How am I supposed to take care of myself in that situation, when I'm being hit and it hurts and walking away doesn't help me (because she'll just follow me to hit me or she'll throw something at me)? I can't lock myself in the bathroom or something, because I have to keep my other kids safe (locking us all in the bathroom is possible, but really only one person fits in our little half bath and those kids don't want to sit in the bathroom with me for half an hour) and I have to keep dd safe. Frankly, I'm not sure how much longer _I'll_ feel safe if she continues to have episodes like this as she grows. Up until now, her hitting me while having these episodes has not really bothered me. But it does now. I think it's a matter of both not wanting to be hurt and of being worried about caring for her and my other kids and me in the midst of it while being here alone. I feel like I need some kind of emergency plan. I mean, no this doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

And you know, it sucks to be feeling like I need an emergency plan to protect us all (even my 7 year old) from my 7 year old.

I tried to videotape her about halfway through, because no one really understands what I'm talking about wrt her meltdowns and I want something to bring in to her doctor and show her. That resulted in dd closing herself in the bathroom briefly. Then she hid under a table after hitting me some more. But after she hid under the table there was no more hitting. Maybe the videocamera was magic.

*sigh* I'm just frustrated and tired. And I have the worst case of heartburn ever.


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## gaialice

Oh, sledge, I am so sorry you are not feeling well and about these issues with your dd.
I have sooo BTDT: my eldest used to have these incredible tantrums and she would often hit me and her little sister... (luckily things are turning round recently... fingers crossed)I think while so much can be done to prevent these episodes (and I know you do try) what can be done during...not much!.... I think the main thing is in your mind. Look at her calmly and with love, feeling all the love you have for her inside, forming a picture inside of when you nursed her, of when she was a baby, of when she was born, of when she was inside your womb. At the same time, like pp were saying, you need to stay in the moment, not worry about the future what you will do if this goes on, no, keep your mind here, just be focussed on now now now be fully aware of now and fix your attention on all the good feelings and sensations as well as the bad.
As for the emergency plan, I often would hold dd (who resisted this of course) in a way how she could not hit me and ask her what she prefers, going to her room or let me hold her. In my case most of the time, after I started this, she would go to her room and slum the door. Then I would send her love messages from under the door.
I also would try when I was holding her to talk to her softly, so softly that I knew she could not hear me, about when she was little and of all the things I see in my mind and my love for her and she feels I am with her but at the same time really somewhere else and not with her in her tantrum
If nothing works, could you maybe just turn on the CD with stories on tape or the TV? I know it is not a great idea but it at least keeps her safe ...
I hope some of this helps... sending you big hugs...


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
I think the main thing is in your mind. Look at her calmly and with love, feeling all the love you have for her inside, forming a picture inside of when you nursed her, of when she was a baby, of when she was born, of when she was inside your womb. At the same time, like pp were saying, you need to stay in the moment, not worry about the future what you will do if this goes on, no, keep your mind here, just be focussed on now now now be fully aware of now and fix your attention on all the good feelings and sensations as well as the bad.

I also would try when I was holding her to talk to her softly, so softly that I knew she could not hear me, about when she was little and of all the things I see in my mind and my love for her and she feels I am with her but at the same time really somewhere else and not with her in her tantrum

Oh, gaialice!







: That is exactly what I need to do. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I like giving her a choice of me holding her or her going to her room. I'm not sure it will work, but I need a way to say "I will not stand here and allow myself to be hit." _I_ need that.

Oh, you've got me crying. Thank you so much. She is my little baby girl, and she is so wonderful and we've had so much joy together, and it will help us both for me to think of that when she's in that place of so much turmoil.


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## WuWei

Sledg, I have been thinking and mulling your posts. Two things come to mind.

One is that your home environment of cooperation and consideration of everyone's needs is not the same as what is modelled for dd at school. It is natural for her to process (and practice) the power dynamic of *power over*. Perhaps, discussing with dd about the differences between how things are at school related to "doing what you are told", like she was expecting of her siblings, would help her to understand that the siblings don't like being told what to do. I imagine that she can identify with that sense of Fuility and Frustration and perhaps you all can explore those feelings. I would also empathize with the siblings and validate their desire not to have to do what they are told; and help them to understand that dd has to "do what she is told" at school and probably likes to have some of that power back at home. I'd consider developing additional ways that she *can* feel empowered at home to meet this need.

The second is harder.







At least for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
but I need a way to say "I will not stand here and allow myself to be hit." _I_ need that.

<snip>

She is my little baby girl, and she is so wonderful and we've had so much joy together, and it will help us both for me to think of that _when she's in that place of so much turmoil._

Could you consider releasing or delaying the need to communicate "I will not stand here and allow myself to be hit"? The dynamic of being *in the experience* of perceiving being attacked, violated and pummelled is not going to help her move through her emotions _when she's in that place of so much turmoil._ I am not suggesting being a whipping boy. I am adamantly not a believer in being a martyr. I believe that the long term goal is for dd to understand that she has a choice of how she reacts to experiences which she perceives as "unacceptable", "futile" and "frustrating". Could you move out of the "unacceptable for her to hit me" process and into Helpmate to move through the Storm, AND THEN address your underlying needs to communicate your feelings? Perhaps, she could then not experience you as *opposing* her emotional expression. Of course, I do not *know* that she is experiencing you as *opposing* her emotional expression; but the emotional angst that you have shared regarding being pummelled feels violated in my interpretation. Children are such barometers of our energy. It must be very scary for her to feel distanced and at odds with you. That probably doesn't help her to wind down. (I am just guessing here, you know. I just find that when dh, or ds is pushing back-figuratively, it is harder to feel like we are partnering to solve the issue, whatever the "issue" is.)

I am not dissmissing how violating it feels to be hit or kicked! Believe Me!! Physcial violation is my Hot Button, as you know. I have a childhood history of being physically violated. When ds was about 18 months and grabbed my legs, I wanted to throw him off! So, it is not easy for me to suggest a different mind-set. If you can move to a place of Trust, Trust that she is NOT wanting to hurt you, and _be with her pain_, I hope that she can feel less adversarial, less alone and flailing, and less hysterical and violent. I hope that I am expressing this with empathy for your experience. And the difficulty to have that level of 'Observer of My Emotions' that I strive to utilize with our son when he is in the throws of a meltdown is an Olympic Event of Will. I am not suggesting repressing or suppressing your emotions, I don't believe. I feel more empowered than that represents. It is a Choice how we *express* our emotions. That is what I want to model for our son.

Fondly, Pat


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## maryjane

I know that post was intended for sledg, but oh my goodness, it really spoke to me too!

This

Quote:

Could you move out of the "unacceptable for her to hit me" process and into Helpmate to move through the Storm, AND THEN address your underlying needs to communicate your feelings? Perhaps, she could then not experience you as *opposing* her emotional expression.
is very intense for me. I have such a hair trigger reaction to being hit, which I am often (he's 3.4). It feels like a violation -- and a betrayal. And even though IN MY HEAD, I know that he is not betraying me by hitting me, in my HEART, it feels like he is on some level. Which gets all mixed up with my response to him -- in the moment and long-term, in terms of our overall approach to his aggression.

And this crystallizes it for me:

Quote:

. If you can move to a place of Trust, Trust that she is NOT wanting to hurt you, and be with her pain, I hope that she can feel less adversarial, less alone and flailing, and less hysterical and violent.
I have no idea how on earth I will accomplish that, but this seems like absolutely the right mindset to attempt to have. (Hard, when as I wrote above, I am having all my personal buttons pushed by the experience of being hit -- or watching him hit others.)

This advice also really resonated with me:

Quote:

I think the main thing is in your mind. Look at her calmly and with love, feeling all the love you have for her inside, forming a picture inside of when you nursed her, of when she was a baby, of when she was born, of when she was inside your womb.
It's interesting b/c I am often so surprised at how visceral (sp?) my reaction is to my older DS2, while my patience literally seems to overflow for my baby (1 yo). Even with DS2, until he hit about 2/2.5, I never even had the urge to yell at him. Now, I have it constantly







: . I think this mental image -- conjuring him up as his newborn, totally dependent self -- is going to be really helpful for me.

Gosh, I love this thread. I am so grateful I found it!


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## Magella

Thank you, Pat.

It is so enormously helpful to have you ladies to mull these things over with.

I have been thinking about all this, and there are two separate issues (as you pointed out, Pat).

One issue is that something about her aggression during the midst of this turmoil she's in is triggering me a feeling of being abused and of worry about my daughter. It's not panic, but it is anxiety. That, and the physical pain of it is unpleasant. So in these moments I'm desperately wanting relief and escape. That is something I can work on from within. It's mine to own and deal with. The reality is that she is a child in pain, not a person trying to abuse me. As for my worry about her, the fact that she is hitting now does not mean she is destined to become more violent and out of control as she grows. It only means she hasn't learned to cope better *yet*.

The other issue is that my daughter needs to be supported through this. I do not want her to feel alone, I don't want her to feel as though I'm her adversary. She needs to know I'm there to help her, she needs guidance during this time.

So she needs me to be the rock at a time when I am least able to be the rock. Her needs and mine seem to be at odds, though I know they aren't really at odds. It's just difficult to, in the heat of the moment, figure out how to take care of us both. Which is why having a plan for my response before it happens again is good. I can think about it now, write it down, rehearse it, and then maybe not feel so much like I'm floundering when (if) it happens again.

I think you're right that delaying or letting go of the desire to communicate to her that I do not want to be hit is possible and actually, since telling her not to hit doesn't help and any verbal interaction (especially commands to stop) contributes to the escalation, might help shorten the episode. We can always talk about it later, but as I've said before (and fail to remember) she already knows that I and others don't want to be hit. I could beat that horse every time, but maybe I don't need to.

In the interest of full disclosure, while I aspire to a home of cooperation and consideration of everyone's needs the reality right now is that we don't always meet our goals. We are a family trying to reform ourselves from "power over" to "power with" and we are certainly experiencing some difficulties related to our parenting history. And since we are works in progress over here, we aren't always modeling the cooperation and consideration to which we aspire. So yeah, we could work on empowerment with our daughter. And we could certainly stand to work on not telling her so often not to hit or not to yell, it's got to be discouraging and it teaches nothing. It's such a reflex, though.

To illustrate that life gives us exactly what we need to grow, I'll share with you what had been my greatest fear regarding parenting. I used to work with children with intensive special needs, at a residential program. Most of the students I worked with had severe behavioral difficulties, lots of aggression--some of it very dangerous. This was a really stressful environment, most teachers didn't last more than 3 years or so. I recall seeing our in-house counselor about coping with the walking-on-eggshells stress that was reminiscent of the abusive relationship of my past. I came away from that experience (working in that school) with a deep fear of having a child with such severe difficulties, particularly the behavioral difficulties. I think this fear and the almost traumatic feelings I carry with me from that experience are what is triggered by my daughters aggression and rages (the almost hyper-vigilance required b/c of her short fuse and unpredictable mood is reminiscent of the abusive relationship I referred to and so can be difficult for me). I have been given a bit of what I most feared, and that has required me to really stretch and grow.

(This may be OT but near the end of my time at this school I realized that no small part of the stress was also the violence of the behavioral interventions we used-which were "non violent" physical restraint (which felt very violent to me) of various types and "closed door time out" (very unpleasant), each of which could last for looong stretches of time. Only later did I realize how dehumanized those children were (from my pov) not just wrt behavioral interventions but wrt to every aspect of their lives.)

Thanks again! Off to play detective with the kids, we have to find a remote control that has been missing for days. We are actually having a glorious day today.


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## Magella

I wanted to add, Pat, that I get what you're saying about not repressing or suppressing emotions but observing them. I think I do, anyway. I have found that it's possible to recognize the emotion, observe it, welcome it, empathize with it, touch it lovingly and yet not get caught up in it and not have to immediately express it to anyone else.

So just as I theoretically can and strive to be there loving and helping my child through her storm without actually getting sucked up into the intensity of the tantrum right along with her, I can be there listening to/empathizing with myself while she's raging without getting caught up in the intensity of my own emotions.

Does that sound right? Is it close to what you're saying?

Oh, and welcome to maryjane, pam and abigail, and mommy&will! Though I have this feeling one or more of you have been here before and I just don't remember, and if that's so please forgive my lack of memory. I have the worst memory these days. I love this thread. These mamas have helped me so very much.


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## MrsTittlemouse

I am new here, and feel shy about speaking up, but I am trying to move beyond that to let you all know that this thread is so relevant to me. It feels like the work being done here is really far reaching. I read the first couple pages then skipped to the last couple. I am so amazed at how it has evolved into, well, zen. You are amazing women and mothers. You are reminding me that our children really are here to help bring us back to the moment and meet everything that comes up in that process.

My 6.5 yo ds is having a rough week, we were away all weekend and then Halloween just seemed to thow him off. He obliviously runs around slamming himself into things and people, and giving us slaps. He will always say "hug, hug," then grab us and hurt us. Today, I have finally acknowledged that I am afraid of him. Not mentally afraid, but deep in my tummy I feel afraid whenever he comes near. It is all violent. And yet he says he is hugging or loving or doing something nice. It is never his fault. I was trying so hard not feel afraid. Today I was able to accept that I am afraid. I can forgive myself for that. I am afraid that I will get hurt. I am afraid that in all honesty I am feeling violated. Then when it builds up I yell. Same story.
Thanks for all the inspiration that is here. It is such a blessing that a discussion like this is happening in a place where it can benefit so many people.
-Liz


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## Magella

Liz,







I imagine you just kind of inwardly cringing in anticipation of being hurt. I can relate to that.

In a similar vein, I have noticed lately that I have a tendency sometimes to sort of maintain a distance between my dd and myself that is kind of a protective thing-in anticipation of more difficulties at any moment, or in reaction to something that is already happening. I'm on guard a lot, and consequently can miss opportunities for connection. That is really hard to admit. And yet this feeling of needing to protect myself comes out of my own perceptions and desires and assumptions, etc. Some days the very same stuff does not trigger those protective, defensive reactions. It's what's going on within me that makes the difference, how I'm perceiving, what I'm expecting, whether I'm in the present or dwelling in the past/future, whether or not I'm getting caught up in expecting my child to somehow meet my needs, all kinds of things.

Isn't it amazing what can happen when we can share our honest, real feelings and reactions and beings? I am particularly grateful for this thread these last couple of days. I've really needed to "talk" this out, and I've really needed to be challenged to consider and question my own needs and reactions and perceptions.


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## MrsTittlemouse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I'm on guard a lot, and consequently can miss opportunities for connection. That is really hard to admit. And yet this feeling of needing to protect myself comes out of my own perceptions and desires and assumptions, etc. Some days the very same stuff does not trigger those protective, defensive reactions.

I know, it is so true. After sleeping on my revelation that I AM scared around him at times, I realize that when this fear pops up I am living in the past. It is an anticipation based on past behavior. So, I can wrap my awareness around that and practice being present when he gets home from school.
Thanks Sledg, your post helped.


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## papapoochie

bringing this post back to page one.


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## mamalita

Hello. I hope it's okay to join in rather late in the game - literally (as it's 1 AM here on the East coast) and figuratively (I think this is post #847 or so). Anyway, I haven't read all the posts yet (read lots of early posts and then jumped here to the end pages), but I have to say that this thread has been a saving grace this past week. My DS is 4 and well, quite challenging. He's precious, adorable, knows what he wants, expresses it emphatically, is showing some signs of OCD or sensory "issues" and is the absolute love of my life.

I have more I want to say, but just wanted to say "hello" for now and hope it's not too late to join in. The wisdom expressed here has had me in tears and nodding my head - and taking notes and posting them for myself on the kitchen counter! To all you mamas (and papas) I say







.


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## MsMoMpls

Welcome Mamalita... You are certainly welcome to join late in the game because as much wisdom and beauty exists in the pages and pages before... there is so much more of the story yet to come.

Maureen


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## mamalita

Thanks for the welcome Maureen! Actually, I have a question - for you or any other parent who can share (I mentioned you specifically as 1. you mentioned you are a therapist and 2. I noticed many of the notes I jotted down as reminders for myself are from your posts [thank you]).

Anyway, without this turning into a "Parents as Partners" thread, how does one handle it if one's partner has quite a different perspective on parenting a challenging child? While he doesn't want to spank or "time out" DS, my DH feels that we need to take a "stronger" approach and feels we should "take charge"







. He (DH) seems to be coming from a place of fear and the viewpoint of "He (DS) needs to be able to exist in the world" and "needs to know that not everyone is going to cater to his every whim". DH feels that I am over-protective of DS and has a pretty low tolerance for DS' outbursts/preferences. DH will even say "I'm (meaning himself) just more mainstream about parenting."

I wish so much that we were on the same page







: . I feel that the differing styles confuse DS. And the tension created by DH and I disagreeing over parenting styles certainly doesn't help. Some days I just feel so sad about it - I feel like DH is trying to force DS to be other than who he is. I try to respect that we all have differing ways of seeing things, but this is one place where I wish we were united and I had DH's support.


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## Magella

mamalita, I only have a moment but wanted to respond as at times my dh and I have been through this problem. Mostly we're on the same page, but at times we have differed enough on key things to cause tension. You mentioned that you feel like your dh is trying to force your ds to be other than who he is, and this is how I came to feel about my trying to convince my dh to parent in the way _I_ think is right. We've talked a lot about acceptance here, as in not expecting a child to be anything other than who they are, and for me the same goes for my dh. We can't approach a problem with our kids or, IMO, our partners, until we first accept them as they are right now. Then we can start right where we are, solving problems based on who we are right now rather than on who we wish the other was. So we can problem-solve together, discuss our concerns (not our solutions-like "I want you to do it differently"-but concerns like "I'm concerned he won't learn to take care of himself" or "are you concerned that he won't learn to tolerate frustration or solve problems on his own?" or "I'm concerned that responding in [whatever way] will prevent him from [whatever]") and find a way to address our concerns together in ways that are acceptable to both of us. We've also spent a lot of time talking about our children, and what has been helpful in terms of parenting and what hasn't. It's been helpful to see things from his perspective, to focus more about what his concerns are than on what he's actually doing. When we're focusing on each other's concerns, we're able to be more united than when we're focusing on each other's actions and how much we agree or disagree with those actions. We agree on the biggies, like spanking, and we have wiggle room with the "less big" things.

One thing that comes to mind is my dh's reactions to crying. Crying is very uncomfortable for him. Extremely uncomfortable for him. Physically, it hurts his ears. Emotionally, it makes him squirm. That's not uncommon for people of our age raised in our culture. He has been, more so in the past than now, likely to tell the kids to stop crying. That's not my approach, usually, and I tend to think that telling a child to stop crying teaches them that their emotions are scary and wrong. This has not been a huge deal, but I've been concerned enough about our differences on this matter to talk with dh about it. However, I know how deeply uncomfortable the crying really is for him, so telling them to stop is a protective tool for himself. So we've spent time talking about dh's concerns and discomfort, I've spent a lot of time taking over when there's crying and he's losing it and filled with discomfort. Over time, he's come to respond in ways I'm a lot more comfortable with and which help the kids a lot--in his own style.

I also have come to believe that differing parenting styles, provided they aren't wildly different, really aren't that confusing to kids. No two parents are perfectly consistent between themselves, each parent parents somewhat differently. I think that's okay. Kids are pretty smart, and pretty resilient. Heck, no one parent is perfectly consistent. And kids do manage, and even thrive.


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## Magella

I am so angry. After a hellish week of being punched, bitten, kicked, screamed at, hit by thrown objects, after a week of stress I never could have imagined before, after a week of being scared for my daughter, I am just so angry.

I am so angry at every person who ever reassured me that she's normal, that it's just the new baby, that it's just adjustment to school, that it's just the end of school, that it's just normal 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 year old behavior, that it's just a phase, that it's just a discipline issue. I am so angry with every person who's just blown off my concerns with "oh, so she's fine at school. Well, about this other issue...." I'm angry that my husband has only just seen some of this stuff and was shocked even though he has believed every word I've said. I am angry, angry, angry at the world, at the universe, at a god I don't even believe in. After weeks of just adoration of and pain for my child I am even angry at her. I'm angry that I can't get my house cleaned because I'm so busy dealing with her. And I'm angry that my little girl has to feel bad about punching me. I'm angry that it's going to take time before the psychologist calls back so I can make an appointment, and even angry that it's likely to not be an immediate appointment. I'm angry that I can't fix it. Mostly I am angry at myself for letting it get this far without getting help.

I'm just so angry. This isn't fair. This isn't fair to my beautiful daughter, or to her two little siblings.







:


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## MsMoMpls

dear, dear sledg...

I feel so sad that you are in the middle of this horrific mess. I can certainly understand the anger- get go ahead and rage. Here if it helps, at anyone that will listen, even rage a bit at your dear dear child... but it is just a thunderstorm. It will pass. Your rage doesn't mean any more than your daughters does. It is just the expression of the pain that the world isn't as we want it to be. Darling- if someone would have taken you seriously earlier... it wouldn't have done anything. This is the only path through the storm. Whether you know it or not- you just keep putting one foot in front of another. You needed her to try and grow out of this, you needed to try everything under the sun, you needed to get to the end of your rope... you did. If I would have tested her with my magic crystal ball at birth and promised you that there was something terribly wrong with her and that you should treat her different and not expect much from her and put her on serious medication... you would have told me where to go. You have to believe in her and you and continue to have hope. Rage but get a move on it because she needs you to move past the anger. It just is what it is. And of course it isn't fair.

My prayers are with you tonight darling... Let me give you a glimpse from my crystal ball. I see a beautiful, sensitive young woman who never forgets that her mother always stood by her, always believed in her and always fought for her. I see a woman who has enormous compassion for the people in the world who struggle. For the people who "look normal" but seldom feel that way. I see a woman who has strength and resilence and hope and love that few others can even begin to understand.

Just wait- you can see her too... I know you can.

Maureen


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## WuWei

Michelle, I just don't know what to say. I am sad that you are so devastated by your week of hell. I am sad that you are feeling so abandoned and alone. I want to just cradle you with comfort and rock you. I am sad with you.

Pat


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## Magella

Thank you both. Maureen, of course you're right as usual. Thank goodness for you ladies.

I'm okay, hanging in there. Today is another day. We'll get through it. I'll just love her and take care of her as best I can, and I do know that she'll grown into that young woman. I do. I mean, she already is so compassionate and caring and wonderful when she is able to be.


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## mamalita

Sledg, I just wanted to send you a







and let you know I am thinking of you. You are such an inspiration to those of us just trying to be peaceful and gentle and learn from parenting. The sensitivity, wisdom, and patience expressed in your posts are the kind of parenting I aspire to.

I also want to thank you for responding to my question - but I'll save that for another time. I just wanted to send you some support right now.


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## Justine

Just wanted to second Mamalitas post. I hope you can heal quickly and carry on with the good work you do. I would have given anything to have had a mother so dedicated and loving as you.

Maureen - your post had me moved to tears as usual. You write so beautifully.

Hugs to you all.


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## Magella

Thank you, mamalita and Justine.

Yesterday was a lovely day, an oasis of calm in life. Dd went a whole day and only hit someone once, no tantrums-she was so proud of how she "went the whole day without hitting!" I was happy for her. And for the rest of us. I'm now about to finish creating a model of the solar system with the kids, just checking in. Talked to the psychologist today, and in 3 weeks we begin the process of evaluation for dd with her. Keeping my fingers crossed that the neurologist doesn't cancel again and we get there next week.

Taking it one day at a time, making an effort to make the parts of life I can control as calm and gentle as possible for all of us.


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## maryjane

(((sledge))) I am also so sorry for all your pain. It isn't fair!!! Neither for you nor for your daughter (and the rest of your family, for that matter.) I hope you keep finding the strength to take it one day (one hour?) at a time... and that your evaluation comes quickly and is helpful to everyone.

Maureen, I love what you wrote about your crystal ball. It really moved me to tears as well.


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## Magella

I just wanted to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving (those who celebrate it). I am thankful for this thread, and for all the support you ladies have given me, and for the opportunity to have been able to support you all as well.

We actually finally saw the neurologist this morning. Of course, dd did not tic once. He wants to rule out seizures because of a few of dd's symptoms (though he doesn't think she's having seizures based on what I told him), so dd has to have a 24-hour EEG. Which sounds fun!







Anyway, he's not concerned about the tics themselves (neither am I, haven't ever been, they're just odd) but he is concerned about the mood/behavior/sleep pieces and definitely thinks the psychologist is the right step to take now. He thinks a lot of her symptoms point to depression or bipolar, both of which are in our family tree even if only distantly, or another psychological disorder. So we'll see in a few weeks, after the EEG, what his report says but I expect it to say, basically, "she has tics." Which is okay. I liked the doc, it was a great visit, and I'm glad to have that done. On to the next step! What I'm looking forward to with the psychological evaluation is some greater understanding of dd, and some parent coaching. I think we need the professional guidance.

Have a great day!!! Thanks again, for all your support.


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## mamacitat

Hi everyone! This is my first post. I wanted to find other mothers to talk to about challenging kids. My son is five and has anxiety issues (that is what the therapist tells me) that cause him to do some really aggravating behaviors. When he was three he decided he wasn't going to poop anymore. That went on for five months!! He would poop his pants when he went to sleep anywhere from every 3-10 days. It was so frustrating. Just this last week he decided to give up pooping again. I am losing my mind. You would think it would be easy to ignore, but he spends much of the day laying around trying to fight the urge to poop. I try to be patient and help him realize it is a poor choice to make, but every once in a while (like today) I totally lose it. I yelled at the top of my lungs "JUST GO POOP IN THE F#$%ING TOILET FOR CHRISTS SAKE." I immediately felt horrible and when I cooled off I appologized to him. So I saw your post and wanted to let you know that I understand how you feel. I remember feeling that rage a lot the last time he decided not to poop and am fearful that we may have many more months of the same and I really don't want to feel that. Nor do I want him to do that to himself. It really takes the joy out of parenting when things are not going well for him. I guess this message has been more of an opportunity for me to vent, but my real intention was to let you know that there are other mom's out there who are good moms who still lose it (more often that we care to admit). Good luck. This too shall pass. At least that is what people tell me!


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## mamacitat

oops-- meant to post this to another thread--sorry.


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## mamacitat

Hi everyone! This is my first post. I wanted to find other mothers to talk to about challenging kids. My son is five and has anxiety issues (that is what the therapist tells me) that cause him to do some really aggravating behaviors. When he was three he decided he wasn't going to poop anymore. That went on for five months!! He would poop his pants when he went to sleep anywhere from every 3-10 days. It was so frustrating. Just this last week he decided to give up pooping again. I am losing my mind. You would think it would be easy to ignore, but he spends much of the day laying around trying to fight the urge to poop. I try to be patient and help him realize it is a poor choice to make, but every once in a while (like today) I totally lose it. I yelled at the top of my lungs "JUST GO POOP IN THE F#$%ING TOILET FOR CHRISTS SAKE." I immediately felt horrible and when I cooled off I appologized to him. So I saw your post and wanted to let you know that I understand how you feel. I remember feeling that rage a lot the last time he decided not to poop and am fearful that we may have many more months of the same and I really don't want to feel that. Nor do I want him to do that to himself. It really takes the joy out of parenting when things are not going well for him. I guess this message has been more of an opportunity for me to vent, but my real intention was to let you know that there are other mom's out there who are good moms who still lose it (more often that we care to admit). Good luck. This too shall pass. At least that is what people tell me!


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## mamacitat




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## maryjane

Sledg -- I'm glad you guys seem to be on your way to getting some kind of answers... and if not ruling stuff in then at least ruling stuff out. Even if it doesn't end up changing what you do or how you do it, I'd imagine it will be validating (hopefully, at least!)

Today was a bad day. A really, really bad day. Many times today I was afraid for my boy.







:

For a while now, I've sorta known (feared) that when A hits school age, he will likely be diagnosed with ADHD. He is just hard wired faster than most children his age. Last year, I did a co-op with four other moms, so once I week, I had the opportunity to intimitately observe my child and his peers. And what I saw was that A was more impetuous, more rash, more aggressive, more silly, more hyper, more loud, more "more" than the other kids. We'd do an art project, for example, and he'd finish it in 3 minutes, while the others were just getting started. Which is fine, art isn't his thing, but this is kind of how most stuff goes. He'll get very engaged in imaginative games, but sit at the table and color? work quietly on a puzzle? 'read' a book by himself? Forget it.

I'm getting off track here, as this isn't the stuff that I see as a problem. I'm just trying to describe his base level -- his "normal" -- which, from what I see and experience, seems ratcheted up from most other 3-4 year old's normal.

But, despite that, life had been really good the last month. The holy-crap-duck-and-grab-cover temper tantrums had all but disappeared. Things were going better at preschool in terms of aggression. He was doing much better with his younger brother. This isn't to say that he wans't hitting, pushing, spitting, shouting "enh enh enh" or "Get.Out.Of.Here" when he was pissed... but it felt like life was more or less handle-able.

This past week, however, I've felt the storm brewing. Nothing specific that I could point to, just a change in barametric pressure, if you will. More crying. Less good will. Then today. Oh my G-d. I am so drained. So drained that in the middle of dinner, I had to ask my H if he'd mind if I went and laid down. And I promptly fell into a deep sleep.

The morning started with A kicking me in the head and screaming "ENH!" at me. Good morning to you too sunshine. I think he might have been having a dream that I was forcing him to eat a clementine, based on some stuff he said later in the morning. The next two hours were unbearable. He could not stop crying. Every single thing set him off. When he gets like this, his normal preference for mommy (which is still excessively strong, IMO, and makes me wonder if his whole atachment to me isn't an issue as well) becomes super exagerated. I literally couldn't take my pajama bottoms off, A was that wrapped around my leg. Crying non-stop. Finally I decided that we wouldn't send him to ps (even though he was begging to go) and instead I got into bed with him, read him several stories and he fell asleep for two hours.

Now this whole crying jag felt different than his normal tantrums. This was so much saddness. So much so that for the first time ever, I was really, really scared that maybe there is something broken inside of him. I mean, why would a three year-old be *this* sad?

He woke up fine around 10 and I ended up taking him to ps. This is the hike/picnic day (he's at a Waldorf school) and his teacher, when I called to say he was having an off day and would be staying home, offered that I bring him in later if he was feeling more himself. He had a great time, by their reports, so I think it was the right call.

Then this afternoon, we had our standing ice cream and playdate with his BF (whose mom is my BF). He had lots of very aggressive episodes -- kicking his brother while he was on the swing, pushing his friend nearly off the top of the slide. After that, I told him that his behavior was unsafe and if it continued, we would go home. He was okay for another 20 minutes and then he got upset b/c some girl had gotten to a swing he wanted first. I tried to sit with him while he waited for his turn, but he was past the point of no return. He climbed up on this wall and started running away. And I couldn't get to him w/o leaving the baby unattended. He eventually came back, but he was shouting like a caged animal: "I don't like you. Get out of here. Leave me alone. Enh Enh Enh." I tried to help him off the wall and he took a swing at me. I told him we were going home and he freaked. He ran away again. Rather than run after him, I just waited. Eventually I told him I'd wait one more minute and then I'd come get him and take him to the car if he wouldn't come on his own. I had to go get him. He was screaming the whole way. I couldn't get him into his car seat w/o using aboslute force, which I do not want to do. So, since our car was parked on a busy street and I couldnt' risk him running into the street, I put him in the car and waited outside. (talking to him the whole time, "A, please calm down. Take some deep breaths. Mommy is here to help you.") Finally, I sensed a lull in the intensity (after maybe 5 minutes?) and went to put his little bro in his car seat (A was still unbuckled). A went crazy and started slapping at me and his brother. I grabbed his hand to prevent him from hurting M. He then spit in my face. Oh my goodness, everything inside of me wanted to scream or hit. Both of which I have shamefully done in the past in similar situations. But thank G-d I did not this time.

I finally got us home. Dinner was fine. Bath time was fine. (By fine I don't be no incidents, just not the firery wrath of my three year old.) Then my H tried to get him into his PJs while I nursed the baby and put him to bed. Again, a massive tantrum. Screaming, spitting, kicking, pinching, scratching.

He's asleep now and my head is just pounding. I'm sorry this got so long. I needed to get it out of me, but beyond that I don't know what I want. I am just so worn down by today. And I know -- if the past is any indication -- that we are in for several more days like this.

I wish I had more patience. I wish I had more to give to him. I wish I could take away his feeling of disequilibrium and give him some sort of sense of peace and security. I wish I could do better by my baby, who I really think gets the shaft so often. I wish I had a "normal" three year-old who did puzzles quietly every once in a while, so I could catch my breath.







:


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## Magella

Oh, maryjane,







I feel like I know just what you're going through. So much of what you described (as I visualize it) is just like what my dd does. And I know what you mean about those changes that let you know you're in for a long few days. It's so exhausting, so draining, to be the parent of a child like this. I also can relate to feeling as if your baby is often getting the shaft, I feel that way about my younger ones too. It's just hard all around, in every way imaginable.

I wish I could say something magic to help, but I know I can't. Just know that you are not alone, and that I will be thinking of you. And take care of yourself as best you can. I hope things get better soon.


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## maryjane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
Oh, maryjane,







I feel like I know just what you're going through. So much of what you described (as I visualize it) is just like what my dd does.... Just know that you are not alone, and that I will be thinking of you.

Thank you. Really, really, thank you!







Parenting my son can be a _very_ isolating experience (one of the reasons I am so grateful for this post!). I've tried to discuss these issues to a certain degree with my friend (the one at the park with us today) and while she sort of gets it, I always feel like there's this unspoken ... I don't know... fear/judgement/??? going on. I could be projecting it, or it could be real.

I hate even thinking that maybe there really *is* something "wrong" with him, b/c that makes me feel? What? I don't know. Sad, of course. Cheated? Alone. Anxious. Worried (about today and all the tomorrows to come -- not for me, but for him.)

I also hate how if there *is* something "wrong" -- and even if it's not clinical, but just behavioral -- that it kind of over-takes all the other aspects of my child. Like instead of being a sweet, loving, beautiful, funny, highly imaginative, clever child, who also happens to x, y or z, he *becomes* x, y or z, and all that other stuff is a like a post script. An exception to the rule.

(







I guess I have a lot to say on this right now. Sorry to go on and on...)


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## PrennaMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama* 
BP-My sis has struggled with clinical depression on and off her whole life. And in retrospect, I believe my mother had depression, too. And probably some other members of my extended family. That said, my sis is a fully functioning, professionally successful person and talented, creative, etc. I say that b/c I get what you're saying: This may be a future dx, but it's not a death sentence. In the darkest times, I feel that heavy burden of Bear's future being a "sentence". But after I read your words, and remember those of my friends and family that have some sort of mental illness and remember that, duh, they are all doing just fine, thank you very much.

And my DH and I joke that we're the only ones we know who AREN'T on medication for something at the moment! I really think depression, anxiety, etc., are even more rampant than we realize.

Hi... new here. Have seen this thread so many times, and have been curious but never looked until this week. *WOW*... Amazing... sincerely inspiring. I read the above, and felt compelled to post... from the other end of the long tunnel. My family has a history on one side (don't know the other) of mental illness... DH was adopted from Cambodia at 4 months... no family history. My family had it tough with me, but didn't really do much about it... I'm a product of self-actualized re-parenting.

My DH, the love of my life, was your son... His parents tried a myriad different approaches. His father, a pediatrician, felt he could conqure the "demons" with medications, and by becoming a self-made 'Expert' on ADD/ADHD, tics, BiPolar, etc... DH is now about to be 32, still struggles with controlling his impulses, (as an adult with these behavioral, bio-chemical challenges, it becomes about impulse self-control, at some points...) But he has found great empowerment in recent years, coming off 25 years of being medicated (much to controlling father's chagrin) owing to the fact that he now takes ownership of his behavior, his choices, and chooses therapy and behavioral counseling, together as a couple...

The roller-coaster is still running... his mother and father still try to steer it. They still don't get that one thing that has been SO BEAUTIFULLY PROLIFIC throughout your posts... unquestioning, unconditional, non-judgemental, acceptance and love... They still treat him as tho he's possessed, some sort of family discussion topic, family joke, an oddity... and not just their son. At the end of the day, after all the therapy, medication, yelling, tests, and changes all of this has wrought on your life (it did on theirs, and continues in ours, too...) Bears is still your boy, (Jon is still my husband) and I'm seriously sobbing as I write this...

...You are a testimant to motherhood, for as difficult as it is for you, for all that you may totally resent the tenor created in your home by his behavior, you love unconditionally and *STEADY ON*. You don't seem to see him as anything but your boy who needs your support and acceptance and love while you all work together to overcome these challenges... And I don't know you, but I am SO PROUD OF YOU. I cry for the years of feeling alone with it in his family that my dh went thru, and find inspiration in your story, knowing he gets what he needs, now, thru me, and thru parenting dd, thru counseling, and re-parenting himself...

As the wife to a man who struggles every week... to whom this struggle is unconscious now after years of struggle, I APPLAUD you. Your son has a head start... thanks to you and your dh.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel... your efforts and steadfastness will pay off... your boy will be a loving and capable man who will praise his mother (and prly his father too,







) for being the rock that he needed to help him attain empowerment and self-sufficiency.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
I hate even thinking that maybe there really *is* something "wrong" with him, b/c that makes me feel? What? I don't know. Sad, of course. Cheated? Alone. Anxious. Worried (about today and all the tomorrows to come -- not for me, but for him.)

When I think that my child may be struggling with some kind of...thing, something "wrong," I feel so utterly sad and so scared. When she's having yet another rage and punching me I feel so sad that our family has to go through this, I feel disappointed, frightened, discouraged. And I feel a lot of dread. I also feel very alone right now, very worried (not just about my challenging dd, but about my other kids as well), very anxious. I'm waking up sick to my stomach every morning these last couple of weeks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane*
I also hate how if there *is* something "wrong" -- and even if it's not clinical, but just behavioral -- that it kind of over-takes all the other aspects of my child. Like instead of being a sweet, loving, beautiful, funny, highly imaginative, clever child, who also happens to x, y or z, he *becomes* x, y or z, and all that other stuff is a like a post script. An exception to the rule.

I hear ya. I've felt that way too. But I'm working on consciously, both in my own mind and when we speak to physicians and the psychologist and family/friends, reframing it to say that she is this sweet, wonderful, intelligent, creative, loving child who also happens to have these challenges and who needs some help with them. Because really, that's the truth. She is wonderful, and she also needs some help. It's just that there's a stigma attached to the kinds of difficulties she has, and I want to fight that stigma with every fiber of my mama bear being. And frankly, I need to frequently remind myself that her behavior is a sign of her struggles, rather than a sign that she's...I can't find the word. Naughty?? KWIM? Reminding myself that she's this great kid who also happens to struggles puts me in a better frame of mind. I still struggle with that a lot, to my discouragement and dismay.

Anyway, it's just so good to know others who get it.

And PrennaMama, your post is so beautiful and gives me so much hope! I thank you very much for taking the time to share that with us.


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## maryjane

Quote:

I'm waking up sick to my stomach every morning these last couple of weeks.
Oh, Sledg. (((hugs))) I've been having a lot of lower back pain and last week, I started having excruciating jaw pain. I've been seeing a chiropractic healer type person, but I do sometimes wonder if all the stress (not to mention lack of sleep, thanks to my 1 yo) aren't just slowing chipping away at my body.

Quote:

It's just that there's a stigma attached to the kinds of difficulties she has, and I want to fight that stigma with every fiber of my mama bear being.
YES! I am the same way. I tend to get very protective/defensive, and sometimes I even want to keep A away from certain people who I fear will be judging him in that way.

Quote:

And frankly, I need to frequently remind myself that her behavior is a sign of her struggles, rather than a sign that she's...I can't find the word. Naughty?? KWIM?
YES! (again!) I was just telling my H that sometimes I feel that I have this incredibly intolerant view towards my son, b/c when he is raging -- or just generally in an aggressive phase, I hear this voice in my head saying, "You can't let him get away with that." I need to think more about that voice, b/c I think what it's really causing me to feel is that if I'm not strict enough (read: punitive) with him -- if I don't have a "no tolerance" policy with his aggresion, for example -- then I will somehow be raising this bratty kid. Which is linked to another hurdle that I struggle with, i.e.how to acknowledge and accept that so much of this is not "about me"... not about how I parent, or my shortcomings as a parent, or my disciplinary tactics, or my patience or lack there of... I can NOT control this. It's in a way like the process I went thorugh with his sleep. Man, was he a bad sleeper! Every night, I kept thinking, "This will be the night. This has to be the night. Please G-d, let this be the night that he sleeps!" I kept trying to find the magic bullet that would make his sleep. I finally had to acknowledge that this was part of who he is -- and while I continued to try to create conditions that were conducive to sleep, I had to accept that I wasn't going to be able to make it happen on my terms. Does that make any sense? Anyway, it feels connected/similar to me.

And yes, it is so, so good to know that there are others that get it. B/c as I said, I am feeling so alone right now. (I just wish that some of my IRL friends were some of the ones who got it!)


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## maryjane

Quote:

There is a light at the end of the tunnel... your efforts and steadfastness will pay off... your boy will be a loving and capable man who will praise his mother (and prly his father too, ) for being the rock that he needed to help him attain empowerment and self-sufficiency.
Oh my gooness, I so hope and pray that this is true for us, as well! I think often about what A will be like at 25, at 35. I wish for him to have the love of self, and the love of such a committed and compassionate partner -- that your H has found.


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane*
YES! (again!) I was just telling my H that sometimes I feel that I have this incredibly intolerant view towards my son, b/c when he is raging -- or just generally in an aggressive phase, I hear this voice in my head saying, "You can't let him get away with that." I need to think more about that voice, b/c I think what it's really causing me to feel is that if I'm not strict enough (read: punitive) with him -- if I don't have a "no tolerance" policy with his aggresion, for example -- then I will somehow be raising this bratty kid. Which is linked to another hurdle that I struggle with, i.e.how to acknowledge and accept that so much of this is not "about me"... not about how I parent, or my shortcomings as a parent, or my disciplinary tactics, or my patience or lack there of... I can NOT control this. It's in a way like the process I went thorugh with his sleep. Man, was he a bad sleeper! Every night, I kept thinking, "This will be the night. This has to be the night. Please G-d, let this be the night that he sleeps!" I kept trying to find the magic bullet that would make his sleep. I finally had to acknowledge that this was part of who he is -- and while I continued to try to create conditions that were conducive to sleep, I had to accept that I wasn't going to be able to make it happen on my terms. Does that make any sense? Anyway, it feels connected/similar to me.

Yes! I went through the same thing with sleep, until I realized that all I can do is provide conditions conducive to sleep, health, a body-clock that's on schedule. But I can't make the sleep happen. I do feel like it's the same with her moods and behaviors. I can create conditions conducive to better mood/behavior, I can model for her by calming myself and talking about what I'm doing, I can model for her by how I handle conflict myself, I can provide her with support and love. But I can't fix her and make her happy and make her behave the way I'd like her to on my terms.

I was reading somewhere (looking for tips on dealing with the rages) how important it is not to take this personally, as a reflection on us as parents or as a rejection of us. Whoever said it used the analogy of having a cold: when our kids have a cold, we don't take personally the coughing or sneezing. And while we can comfort them and give them fluids we can't make the cold go away yet we don't take that personally. So it is with kids with difficulties like our kids', the behaviors are a sign of something going on in their mind/body/brain--it's not who they are, and not something to take personally, not a reflection of how we're doing as parents and not a rejection. I liked that analogy, it helped me get through this morning's rage.








maryjane, these last few posts have been so very helpful to me.


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## maryjane

Me, too, Sledg! Me, too! When I feel alone with this stuff, I tend to get really negative in my own head. I become all defended and defensive, as I said earlier, and weary of others -- and of course, times like these are when I most need the reassurance of true friendship and understanding!

I also like the cold analogy. Wow! It's hard to really internalize that. I find that I can know something in my head... but somehow it doesn't sink its way down to my gut, which is often what I'm reacting out of when A gets in a rage/mood.

I'm wondering -- how old are your other kids? My little one is 13.5 months. As he gets older, I'm feeling a bit nervous to see if some of the same behaviors are repeated. With A, other than his crappy sleep (which M seems to have gotten a bit of as well, lucky me!), I didn't really have any clue until he was older -- around 2, actually -- that he had this side of him. He wasn't a classicly "high needs baby"... well, I mean, he didn't sleep well and nursed more or less around-the-clock for the first year or so of his life. But... he had a great disposition and was very open/happy. He still has those qualities, but he also has this other stuff, as you know. Anyway, I just keep kind of hoping that M will be more even-tempered and less aggressive, so that I can at least have some kind of incontrovertable "proof" that this isn't my "fault". (I have a friend who once said to me, "M, have you considered that maybe *you* are the problem with your boys' sleep?")


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
I also like the cold analogy. Wow! It's hard to really internalize that. I find that I can know something in my head... but somehow it doesn't sink its way down to my gut, which is often what I'm reacting out of when A gets in a rage/mood.

I have the same problem with intellectually knowing something but reacting out of something else in the heat of the moment. For me, I think part of it is habitual thought patterns/assumptions learned over my whole life, part of it is not having accepted fully/deeply in that moment that this is what's happening (and stuck in wishing it were different) which leads me to.., part of it is my discomfort with the whole thing. I see my child hitting and raging (or I'm on the receiving end of the screaming and hitting) and I have this reaction of fear and adrenaline and anger (who doesn't feel angry when their child is hit-even if by another child-or when they are hit themselves?) and without consciously breathing and reminding myself that "she has a cold" I react from that primitive, angry, scared, adrenaline-infused place. It's hard to re-program myself to respond, especially when her rages trigger all my worries and fears (so that I can get caught up in the fantasy of the horrors the future might hold, instead of *just being here, now*).

My other kids are a boy who is 5, and a girl who turns 3 in a couple of weeks. My boy is blissfully mellow (okay, sometimes I worry that he's too mellow), peaceful, loving, gentle. He's always been a very good sleeper (well, all my kids nursed all night until about 15-18 months), good eater, well-regulated, just a dream-baby and dream-child. He's very good at expressing his emotions and needs and thoughts. He doesn't escalate so rapidly, can be reasoned with, she can be comforted, she can be redirected. My little girl wakes more often and is very opinionated and strong-willed, similar to my big girl but there's a much more "normal" quality to her strong will and tantrums and (*sigh*, yes) aggression. At times I have been frightened, watching my little girl, that I have another of my big girl on my hands. Most of the time, though, I just don't worry about her. She, too, is good at expressing herself and her feelings. She, too, can be reasoned with, she can be comforted, she can be redirected--despite having a shorter fuse than her brother. I have said before that my younger ones are my validation that I am not just a crappy parent. What we've learned to do with regard to parenting (thanks to my big girl) really works with them, and they are learning and growing and just so....normal (I hate saying that).

My big girl never slept. I mean, she'd sleep 1/2 hour a couple of times a day even as a very young infant and she'd sleep up to 2 or maybe 3 hours at a time at night up until she was about 18 months old. Then she slept at night....after the hour to 2 hours it took her to fall asleep despite being tired. From age 1 to almost 2, she'd wake from her nap (which had increased to 45 minutes to an hour) and just scream for 45 minutes. I never did know why. Oh, right before she turned 2 we noticed she didn't like to wear socks and wouldn't wear jeans-she said they felt funny. Other than that, I remember it being easy until she was almost 3. I mean, she was our first and we thought that's just the way it was. And for a long time, it wasn't hard to parent her because she was either the only one or my boy was just a tiny baby who made few demands. Oh, she was so smiley!!! So bubbly!!! So much joy to be around!! Then all hell broke loose, around the time she was approaching 3 and ds was crawling/demanding and we had moved a few months prior and I'd had a miscarriage, and she started: with the 2-hour tantrums (escalated quickly, wouldn't accept comfort, interaction, touching and was so non-redirectable), no clothes felt good (only wore certain underwear a size too big, certain socks a size too small, etc.), aggression. We noticed the tics at age 4. But she was Buddha at preschool. (Really, one of her teachers said she was sure dd would be a gentle leader, like Buddha. I just looked at her, and really, honestly for a moment was so confused and concerned that the teacher was talking about the wrong child.) I think the stress of that period was a trigger, clearly, and so were my parenting skills at the time, but it's also just her. Since then our troubles have waxed and waned. We've attributed her difficulties to all kinds of things and made all kinds of adjustments, but still she rages and hits and has anxieties. Right now we are in the midst of the worst in her entire life. Througout it all she's been smiley, in between the rages and whatnot. But not so much lately. It hurts my heart to see that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane*
(I have a friend who once said to me, "M, have you considered that maybe *you* are the problem with your boys' sleep?")


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## MsMoMpls

Hey everyone- glad to see that this thread is still available to people, that it is still the most helpful way of accessing the kind of support that is needed. Funny how I have kind of forgot about the impact of Nate's illness until I read this letters. I think it is kind of like childbirth... you know it hurt, you kind of remember the pain but luckily you can't really feel it later. I know how sick I was, how much pain I was carrying. Recently my dh- who has been unemployed for 4 months is going through a significant bought of depression. Suddenly much of my feelings of powerlessness have resurfaced. He is angry- at nothing. He is defensive and blaming... about nothing. He doesn't feel my love and support no matter what I do. All of that is how Nate responded to me. Now at least I know what it is, and again all my energy goes into not taking it personally, not letting it get to me, not reacting to his internal junk. Wow- mental health is complicated. I know that my dh will pull out of this soon, (or I will be demanding treatment) but in the heart of the matter, it is nearly impossible to have my happiness and peace of mind go uneffected.

Maureen


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## mommyoftwo

Been lurking for a long time on this thread but finally joining.

My five year old dd has been really out of control lately. She is horrible to everyone in the family. I think that she tells us all that we are stupid and that she hates us 50 times a day. We are also all getting physically abused by her. Everything is always a huge battle. The funny thing is that her Kindergarten teacher is constantly telling us how well behaved she is and how well she is doing in school.

It seems like she is always so easily frustrated and she doesn't have the skills to appropriately handle the situation when she becomes frustrated. So odd because she is normally very articulate was verbal at a very young age. It is like she totally regresses the second things don't go the way she wants them to.

Nothing we do seems to help. I try talking her down by discussing her feelings but it seems to escalate the situation. If we try to walk away when she is screaming at us or hitting she follows. When we finally do talk about it, she blames everyone else and refuses to admit that she was acting badly. She seems to have no remorse. She will apologize but just to end the conversation about her behavior. I feel like we must have failed to give her the equipment and language to deal with her feelings when she was younger and now we are paying for it.

When all else fails, these situations degenerate quickly into me yelling, threatening, punishing, and trying to isolate her. All which of course makes things worse.

We are really starting to think that something is not right, like this definately isn't normal five year old behavior. I've worked with a lot of kids, my background is special education so I have a reference point. I am sad to say that one year I worked in a classroom for kids with behavioral and emotional problems and my dd acts like they did. I am considering looking into oppositional deviant disorder as a possibility.

She also seems to have a bit of social anxiety. I am starting to wonder if that is why she is so "well behaved" at school.

Well much more later-ds is calling.

I ordered the Explosive Child the other day and I'm looking forward to reading it.


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## boomingranny

just wanted to point out that 5 can be a very challenging age developmentally-wise.


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## Magella

Maureen,







I'm sorry to hear your dh is feeling so badly. I know it's hard when a spouse is depressed (I know this b/c I went through depression way back when dh and I were first married, and he tells me it was very, very hard).

mommyoftwo, I can so relate.







It's hard. I'd like to write more, no time.


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## PrennaMama

Hi Moms.... can you tell me, individually, at what age or stage did your children begin to exhibit signs that something was amiss?

My MIL says that dh was high maintenance from as soon as he could move around on his own. He used to harass his siblings violently (he's 3 of 6, 4 of them adopted.) tearing into the room where they were playing quietly and destroy their projects, kick them yell and rip things apart...

Our dd is just 2, and people have been making comments... "Well, she sure is spirited / hyper / crazy" etc... and it pains me on a couple of levels, because dh and I both have ADHD, but I had hoped by doing things differently than our folks had she might escape that aspect. On the other hand, I worked with special needs kids in pre-school and as a nanny, and she IS spirited, but I worry that I may not be seeing what others are seeing...

Anyway... please share?


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## Magella

That's a difficult question for me, PrennaMama. We knew our dd was intense as a baby ("driven" was the word we most commonly used to describe her), that she was difficult to soothe, easily overstimulated, easily frustrated, never slept well. As a very young toddler, she was already complaining about how her clothes felt funny. Her emotions have always, since birth, been strong. However, we didn't ourselves perceive any of her traits as problematic until she was nearly 3.

I don't know that you could prevent something like ADHD through parenting. Also, spirited can be quite normal. Some people are more spirited than others. It has been my experiene, though, that spirited is not something society (in general) embraces in children. Also, 2 is pretty young. And American society has a very narrow definition of normal, IMHO.

What do _you_ think about your daughter?


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## MsMoMpls

Nate was a bit intense... but as an only I was able to just adapt life for him so I didn't quite see it. He was weird about textures, changes, could keep himself from sleeping by sheer willpower and hated people having expecations of him... at 2-3. He didn't end up falling apart (severe depression) until 3rd grade and then grew out of almost all of it during his late adolescent brain growth spurt.

As for ADHD parenting- here is an interesting theory (and I swear ADHD has many causes). There is an increased risk of ADHD in children of depressed mothers. It seems as though babies of depressed mothers get louder and "bigger" in an effort to draw their mother's attention to them, in order to get a positive reaction. By being responsive and highly involved with our children, they don't need to do this, and are able to be calmed quickly and effectively. Now that has nothing to do with Nate.. or most kids but it seems to be true for some.


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## PrennaMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
That's a difficult question for me, PrennaMama. We knew our dd was intense as a baby ("driven" was the word we most commonly used to describe her), that she was difficult to soothe, easily overstimulated, easily frustrated, never slept well. As a very young toddler, she was already complaining about how her clothes felt funny. Her emotions have always, since birth, been strong. However, we didn't ourselves perceive any of her traits as problematic until she was nearly 3.

I don't know that you could prevent something like ADHD through parenting. Also, spirited can be quite normal. Some people are more spirited than others. It has been my experiene, though, that spirited is not something society (in general) embraces in children. Also, 2 is pretty young. And American society has a very narrow definition of normal, IMHO.

What do _you_ think about your daughter?

I thnk she's a quirky kid... that's what _I_ think... but, like I said, I worry that I'm not seeing something that others _are_ perceiving. However I can tell you she sleeps no more than 3-4 hours at a stretch, wakes, needs comfort, and goes back to sleep. Has done this for 2 years, and has always been very easy-going and observant.... and recently will just stand on her bed and yell, (not scream or cry) at the top of her lungs, until someone opens the door, and puts her back in ber. If I let her, I fear she would yell for an hour straight. She is beginning to do little scary intense things, like sudddenly screeching *"NO!!"* and throwing things, turning away and refusing to make eye-contact, general "2 year old behavior".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls* 
Nate was a bit intense... but as an only I was able to just adapt life for him so I didn't quite see it. He was weird about textures, changes, could keep himself from sleeping by sheer willpower and hated people having expecations of him... at 2-3. He didn't end up falling apart (severe depression) until 3rd grade and then grew out of almost all of it during his late adolescent brain growth spurt.

As for ADHD parenting- here is an interesting theory (and I swear ADHD has many causes). There is an increased risk of ADHD in children of depressed mothers. It seems as though babies of depressed mothers get louder and "bigger" in an effort to draw their mother's attention to them, in order to get a positive reaction. By being responsive and highly involved with our children, they don't need to do this, and are able to be calmed quickly and effectively. Now that has nothing to do with Nate.. or most kids but it seems to be true for some.

I read something to that effect in Tomorrow's Baby and in *Raising a Secure Child*. How much of the affects of ADHD, do you think, can be attributed to sugars, dyes, wheat, etc...? Dh and I have been talking about what else we can do, and changing, more dramtically, our family diet came up. Diet always seems to make it's way into discussions about behavioral and or chemical imbalances, doesn't it?

Thanks for being welcoming, mamas!







:


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## Magella

HELLO...Helloooo.....hellooooo....Is there anybody (out) there?

I _wish_ I were comfortably numb right now.

I am sad today. I have a bit of PMS going on, but it's also just that I'm sad about dd. We met with the psychologist last night, just dh and I, and we like her a lot. Dd will meet her after the holidays. It was so draining, though. We were so nervous and tense, and it was a long meeting, and when it was over we just felt so drained. I'm glad we're beginning the evaluation process, but it feels soooo ssssssllllllooooooooooowww. Anyway, I'm just sad that we're going through all this. I have hope, and I know life is just as it's supposed to be, and all that. But I'm also sad. It's just not what we would've chosen, obviously, not for our dd and not for us-none of this is. But of course, we would not change dd for anything either.

Hmmm. Just sad. Maybe grieving a little. I dunno. Definitely PMSing. Dd's been having a very good week, though, which is nice. My little one turns three in a few days, and she is so exited! And everyone is excited for the holidays.

Venting is good. Hope you all are well.


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## maryjane

PrennaMama -- I'm not really sure, to be honest, when we started to notice his behavior. I guess the first benchmark was around age 2, when he started interacting with other children through a co-op and had a lot of issues with aggression. Then, when he turned 3, the tantrums and mood swings and other difficulties started. He still has a lot of issues with aggression, as well. BTW I'm very interested in what you asked about ADD/ADHD. My husband more than likely had ADD and my BIL definitely had/has ADHD. I am *certain* some days that A has it, but I don't really know what to do with that, as he is only 3.5. I'd love to hear more about this issue as far as challenging kid stuff goes for others as well.

Sledg -- I'm sorry it's slow going and sounds so terribly draining. Gosh, I can't even imagine that first session... I probably would cry a lot! Big hugs to you as you go through this process and all my best wishes for whatever result is best for everyone.


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## WuWei

Bumping.

And I wanted to post this link about the Unconditional Parenting DVD co-op. It is half price from retail. I loved the book and hear the DVD is great to watch with your partner, so that everyone is working together. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=588271

Pat


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## *LoveBugMama*

I just wanted to bump this thread.









This thread has been a lifesaver. I have a sensitve, intense, shy, angry, fantastic, almost 6 year old son, and this thread har helped me so many times.
Are all of you ok? Just wondering, since no one has posted here since last year..


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## Magella

I thought this thread had died.







I'm glad it's been helpful to you Tamara.

I'm okay, my challenging dd is okay. We are stable, or as stable as we get. Dd begins working with a psycholgist to work on learning to manage her anxiety soon. But I have to say, it's amazing how after the last rough period we went through dd is now so expressive-I mean with words, really effectively expressive-about her feelings. It's amazing how she's learning to handle her frustrations better.

Awhile back we talked about empathy, and children seeming to have no remorse. I was rendered speechless the other day when dd came to me, asked to sit with me so she could talk, and said (after witnessing my toddler dd's tantrum) "when I heard sister's tantrum, I felt bad about having tantrums." I really couldn't speak, so I just hugged her.







She is getting it!! I am sorry she felt bad, I don't want her to feel bad about it, but I'm so happy that she's making such progress!! I mean, to recognize how hard it is for others to hear her screaming, and to care, and to regret, and most of all *to say it to me*! It's just amazing.

I keep saying that life is like childbirth. Really. (Dh laughs at me.) We go through these amazingly difficult and painful out-of-our-control periods, and it's more painful when we fight it, so we just try to go with it, listen to it and follow it, and survive it. And then suddenly it's over and somehow something has transformed and we've let go, and we've all grown and life is sweet and manageable. Just like labor, giving birth to some new phase of life. Over and over again.


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## Bearsmama

Thanks for bumping, Tamara









And I am the worst offender here as I have not posted to this thread (or MDC in ages). Life has been busy.

Hi sledg!









Funny how I noticed this today being bumped. My challenging kid has, in general, changed so much since about last June/July. Everyone, including his preschool teachers and grandparents have noticed great strides since then. That said, when he reverts back to his old intensity level, I get scared. And I realize that we will never be out of the woods with this child. Just today we had to go somewhere we've never been (a fun place, not a doctor or anything like that) and he just plain out refused to get out of the car. Crying, crying, crying. Plain out refused. He is too old for me to carry out. Too intense for me to cajole into doing something he doesn't want to do. I handled things well, tried to listen, but also needed to be firm b/c we were invited somewhere and had already said we were going. I gave him the talk about how I knew things felt hard for him, how I understood how new things scared him, yadda, yadda, yadda. To no avail. He lost out on doing something new tomorrow b/c of today's fiasco. Not simply as a punishment, but I can't again go back to the days of every new thing being a HUGE struggle, and I fear that we're going down that road again. Fear is a huge thing when he gets in these moods-he's scared of whatever and then I get scared of our future together. He is now 5 years old, and too old for me to hoist out of a car and simply say, "We're doing X". He made a choice today, and he has to live with it.

Once again, so suddenly, I'm thrown back to all of our other moments (and actually this behavior today used to be the norm as you all know). I am feeling nervous, angry, and fearful. Kindergarten is next year and b/c of the changes in him in recent months I've been lulled into thinking that all will be well. That he'll just assimilate like so many other kids do. Now, I realize that I was kidding myself.

Sledg-The childbirth analogy is perfect. Perfect for parenting these kids and for dealing with the daily ups and downs of trying to understand them. It's also pretty apt for this thread. I gave birth to this thread, and now it has had a life of it's own.

Many hugs to all of you. And where's the bag over the head smiley for the thread-starter here who has been very remiss with this discussion? Oh, there it is.







:


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## Magella

Oooh, it's like a reunion!









Bearsmama, what you say about fear about your child and your future with him really speaks to me. But you know, I'm finally starting to let go of the fear. I don't tighten up so badly when the going starts to get rough, I don't start catastrophizing about it all as much anymore.

I have found my child's anxiety and fear to be so hard to deal with. Particularly when the anxiety and it's manifestations (like not getting out of the car, or not getting dressed) bump right up against my own (or the family's) agenda/needs. What you described, about him not getting out of the car and the plans and committment already made, that's just exactly the trickiest type of situation for me and dd. How to not let the anxiety stop her (and the rest of us, at times) from having fun, keeping committments, living life? This is our work right now.

Anyone else out there we haven't heard from in awhile? How are you doing?


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## MsMoMpls

wow! It is so great to hear from everyone. I do miss you all. Right now my two little ones are quickly approaching birthday week. Having them share their birthdays means that I have to face losing both babies somehow. Zach turns 3 Friday, Joey 5 Sunday. I have crossed out of babymom world.. forever. (Although Zach still nurses like a newborn, he also can manage the internet so not much baby stuff.) It seems like these two are not sharing their big brother's intensity. At least so far. I had to face some huge fears when we went to visit kindergarten for Joey- all sorts of stuff from Nate's past came up for me. But Joey is not Nate, and I am not the mom I was.

Right now we are still facing my dh's unemployment and accompanying depression which has also brought up so much of my sense of powerlessness. I can't fix him, but my personal path for the past two years have been all about not fixing anyone, especially and mostly me. There is no fixing, there is loving, supporting, seeing. I am taking this course through Landmark (landmarkeducation.com) that is just wonderful about bringing more play to our lives. The areas where we have stopped playing are the areas where we have stopped growing. So this year is all about play and ease for me.

Glad to hear from you all, remember that what you resist persists. All is well. How can your kids go wrong with you as their mommas?

Love you.
Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Maureen--I was JUST going to post the simple question: Where's Maureen?????

And BOY, did I need to read your words this morning. I swear, some things are meant to be.

Maureen-I am so sorry to hear about your DH's umemployment and most importantly, his depression. This all sounds incredibly difficult to deal with. Many hugs and love to you.


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## Bearsmama

Oh, Maureen-I just finally caught up with the posts to this thread today after not checking in since before the holidays. I realize now that you have been dealing with your DH's issues for months now. I'm sorry I missed that post. You have given so much support to so many of us and I hope you're getting the support YOU need now.


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## umami_mommy

:

subbing.


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## WuWei

Just saying hi!! We are doing well. Well, today I am practicing my positive affirmations since I feel like I am coming down with something and ds is grouchy, sneezing and snotty nosed, and dh is going out of town...

This too shall pass.

Rescue Remedy.

All is well.

Sleep. Sleep. Sleep.

Protein.

Together.

Pat


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## emblmrgrl

Hello everyone! I still think of you all often although life has taken me away from the computer a great deal in the past few months. Cole is doing exceptionally well. He & I have both learned a lot. We made it thru football and he was a different child for those months. And when I say that, I mean it was like another boy in my home! I got to see all those things I love about him, alive for a whole 4 months. The physical contact sport just seems to be such a release for him. After it was over he regressed a bit but I think the structure of the program really helped him manage himself better.

Also, school ... his teacher is truly a blessing. I have not gotten one note sent home all year. Not one! She told me at conference that I had her a little worried at the first of the year and that yes, Cole is very high energy, but he's manageable. (She must have skills that I don't, lol) I want to put her in my pocket and take her with us to second grade.










As for me, well, getting to see all the good stuff for a while allowed me to get closer to him once more. He still causes me to lose my mind once in a while but all in all I think we're on the right path. I think I have finally accepted who he is, no matter how different from myself. And that it really is just my job to point him in the right direction and see how he fairs.

Anyway, I hope you all are well ... this thread was such a lifesaver. I'll check back again soon!


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## Magella

Pat,







I hope you are feeling better and that you have gotten sleep.

Jennifer, what great news! How wonderful for you and Cole. I'm glad to hear things have been going well.

Maureen, I too am sorry to hear that you are still struggling with your dh's depression and unemployment.







I agree with Bearsmama: You have been a wonderful support to all of us, I am grateful to you, and hope that you are getting the care and support you need now.


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mama Friends,
I just thought I'd check in and lo and behold there have been more posts since my last. I don't know what's up, but I have not gotten any of those great little email reminders that someone else has posted to the thread. I miss them! I wonder how I get them back???

Struggling a little here. More when I can. Just checking in. Love to all.


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## TEAK's Mom

Hey all, remember me? It's been a long time, but I thought I'd stop by for a minute. We are on a more even keel here. TEAK is a couple of weeks from her fifth birthday and seems to be much more comfortable in herself. She's still intense and powerful and definitely distinct, but her 'skin' seems to fit better these days. I'd like to claim credit, but she seems to be evolving in her own way.


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## MsMoMpls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom* 
She's still intense and powerful and definitely distinct, but her 'skin' seems to fit better these days. I'd like to claim credit, but she seems to be evolving in her own way.


That is perfect... I completely get that some people who once thought I was nuts for "letting" Nate get away with so much now think I must have done something right because Nate is such a wonderful human being. Instead I always knew he was a wonderful human being that just needed to grow into his own skin. He still struggles with keeping a job- every time he loses a job he spends months recovering (playing way too many video games) but right now he is up and motivated and actively looking. He has been with his girlfriend for 9 months and the relationship is getting better all the time. He is wonderful with her son and with his little brothers. There is no way that anyone would have predicted this by who he was at 9. Hang onto your faith in your children and find your faith in your love for them.

Good to see everyone.

Paul is still unemployed. I had a dream that I was very, very pregnant and kept asking people when the baby was supposed to come. That is how it feels around here. People keep calling... "No- not yet." But spring is slowly appearing in Minnesota and that makes everything more manageable. Send up some good energy for us. I know that this is also a stage we will look back on and it won't seem nearly as bad in retrospect.

Love you all.
Maureen


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TEAK's Mom* 
She's still intense and powerful and definitely distinct, but her 'skin' seems to fit better these days. I'd like to claim credit, but she seems to be evolving in her own way.

I am happy for you and TEAK, and like Maureen I think this is an excellent point. My dd is doing so much better in many ways lately (not hitting, not yelling so much, talking about her feelings, problem-solving better, beginning to handle anxiety better) and while I do think that how we've learned to support and respond to her has helped we certainly can't take credit for this. I do think she's just maturing. And in other ways, she's going through a harder time now-we're back to clothes not feeling right, refusal to get dressed, had to spend $100 on the mail-order undies that are the only ones in the world that feel good. I think this surge in discomfort, too, is a sign of growth.

I'm reminded of my garden. I put the seeds in the soil and do my best make sure they have what they need to grow. There are things I can do (or not do) that certainly could prevent them from growing. But mostly they just grow on their own, I don't have all that much control. I don't _make_ them grow or determine how they'll grow or how big they'll get or how much food they produce-really I can only support them as they grow, and trust that they will grow. I think it's the same with our kids.

It really is good to hear from everyone.

Bearsmama, are you doing okay?


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## WuWei

How is everyone doing??

Pat


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## Bearsmama

Hi Mamas,

I was just thinking the same thing, Wu Wei! How IS everyone???

Things here are okay. Bears is still very challenging and frequently regressives to the behaviors that he used to exhibit every minute of the day. Lately, though, I am noticing that he can better put into words how he is feeling. He can cry easier and reach for some sort of comfort, instead of hitting, screamig, spinning, etc. Just tonight we had an issue with a goldfish. He said something was "all his fault" and instead of running from those feelings, he came to us, let daddy hold him, then me. Really listened when I said that everyone makes mistakes, mommy makes them everyday, etc.

What Teak said a while back, which I just really had a chance to fully appreciate tonight, is that Bears many days seems to be fitting better into his own skin. I used to make the analogy that Bears was like a newborn foal, all legs and kicking. Now, many days he's running better. His legs are working with is body. Everything is in sync. Of course, there are other days in the week where I think that he will always have some sort of issue. But on the days like today, when he plays and smiles effortlessly, eats a pizza dinner and smiles and sings through every bite b/c he's just happy, well, I just appreciate it. I appreciate every effortless, happy moment with him b/c he's been so challenging, IS so challening.

Let me know how everyone is doing. I miss all of you!


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## *LoveBugMama*

:

I need to vent. Please be gentle with me.

Noah (6YO in 3 weeks) had a 60 minutes screaming, kicking, punching, sobbing and crying fit today. The reason? His favourite roll of tape was empty.







:

What to I do in these situations? How to help him, and at the same time show him that this is not the end of the world? I know it FEELs like it to him, though... I validate, I sympatize etc. But nothing helps much. He freaks out if anyone tries to talk about his feelings when he is upset, he will NOT be cuddled when angry/sad and all he wants is to scream and kick and hit me..







:

Luckily, these incidents are rare. Normally he is intens and sensitive in every other way, but very "good" at accepting things like this.

Man, some ays are harder than others. And to top it all, my mother is visiting (we haven`t seen her in a year) and he freaks out even more because he doesn`t want her to see him sad..

Thanks for letting me vent. I figured that you mamas would understand, after reading about your amazing journeys in this thread.

Oooh, and I apologize if my english is bad.. Not my native language.


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## Magella

, Tamara. Been through those 60 minute screaming aggressive tantrums here. I will share what has worked for me and my dd (7). My dd doesn't like to be hugged/cuddled in those situations either, and talking about her feelings seems to make things worse. I've found that it's helpful to focus, instead of on her feelings, on the *problem* (so not "you're angry/sad", but "you wanted to use the tape, and it's all gone")-this not only helps during a tantrum like this, but it also helps prevent a tantrum and moves us toward problem solving together if we do this early enough/before she reaches escalates too much emotionally. At the same time, when she's having a tantrum, it's helpful to only say that ("you wanted to use the tape...") once or twice, to really minimize verbal interaction until she's calmer and ready for it. It helps to just sit with her while she's having this tantrum, keeping us safe (sitting with her in a safe room, just the two of us-yes I have younger kids (3 and 5) and this is hard at times, but necessary; moving out of her reach when she tries to hit/kick) and just being a calm, centered presence listening to her. Doing this both models coping with intense emotion and a difficult situation calmly and lets her know that I am there to help. When she's calm and ready for hugs and talking, we can talk about the tape and how disappointed she was, and what other tape she might use and when we might get more of her favorite tape (problem solving).

Wishing you better days.


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## umami_mommy

isn't that interesting... my son had one of his fell-asleep-on-the-couch-woke-up-tantruming incidents friday night. he used to have them a lot. now just once in a blue moon. he hates to be cuddled-hugged even talked to when it happens. it just makes him scream louder. luckily it didn't go on too long and when i offered him a cup of milk he calmed down enough for his dad to hug him and then he went easily upstairs to sleep. this kind of thing used to go on for hours at a time. thankfully he seems to be growing out of it. whew.

he seems to be adjusting to having a baby sister too. his *horrible* behavior seems to be abating somewhat... he played very nicely all day yesterday with our friends' daughter; who he always seems to get to aid him in misbehaving in the worst way when we get together.







:


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## *LoveBugMama*

Note to self:

Never, ever go out with a tired, angry son. Ever.







:
Man, this day has been crazy. And a normal day isn`t exactly easy in my house...

Has any of you experience with a child that never seems satisfied? That always wants more? No matter how much I give, how much attention I give, he always asks for more.







It feels like I am saying NO all day. But other parents will say that I give him more than they ever do to their child..

No matter how much I say YES, how much I try to do things he enjoys etc, he always wants more. Always asks for more attention, more stuff, more fun things to do etc.

Usually I can deal with it, but on days like today, it makes me soo sad and tired.


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## Magella




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## WuWei

How are you mamas?

Pat


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## WuWei

Bumping.

Pat


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## Bearsmama

Hi Pat and Mamas,
Wow. It's so nice to see this thread, alive again. It's been sooo long since I regularly posted here. So much has changed. I don't have much time right now, but I will say that my challenging Bears is blossoming into such an enjoyable, lovely boy. He is losing his first tooth, reading like mad, and being his tenderhearted self. He loves kindergarten and I really think this is helping him to blossom and grow even more. He is still a quirky kid, of course. He is an early riser, he's picky, he still has trouble with the way things feel on his body. He has trouble listening and sitting still. I could go on. But the big things, the things that were making his life and our lives really miserable for a while, have softened and changed and morphed.

My second child has entered that dark period called being 3.







My "easy" child is now incredibly challenging--but in different ways than Bears was.

I have had a really hard time parenting (since the beginnging, really). But especially in recent months. I realize now that my biggest challenge is ME. Which I've written about here and elsewhere many times. But it's really true. I have some big problems with anger. With sulking. Etc. I am working on it and I am hoping that one of these days, before the children are in their teens, I can make things "click" more often.

I have much more to say, as always. I would love to put Bears past year or so in some kind of context that could be summed up here. But I can't. I wish I could tell you all about my past year or so. It's been really hard. And I think I've struggled with some depression. Which is very difficult for me to admit and get support for. But I am living every day and doing my best.
I am looking forward to hearing from all of my mamas here...please let me know how you are. And thanks, Pat.







How are you?


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## MsMoMpls

Oh it is so good to see this thread and I am so glad to hear that Bears is doing so well... Told you so!

My oldest- the 23 year old who had the childhood from hell, is a wonderful adult who is in a serious long-term relationship with a woman I think is good for him.

Number 2 is also in kindergarten and loving it! After all my trauma with Nate it was hard for me to face re-entering the public school system but Joey is such a different child and is just eating it up. He comes home on fire to learn and his teacher (who is only a year older than Nate














is fantastic.

My little one is also the horrible 3 1/2 stage and still nursing like a new born which I am tolerating but no longer truely enjoying. He is a driven, intense kid but manageable... we will see what he has to teach me.

Check out my website. My newest baby is the nonprofit parenting center I have been able to open after 2 years of plotting and planning. It is wonderful. Not making any money yet but having a blast. Doing a group for moms with mood issues, too bad you aren't in Minnesota.

All is wonderful. Can't wait to see who else posts. This thread was very inspirational to me, helping me to see how much support is needed for parents in the world.

Maureen


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## Bearsmama

Soooo great to see you, Maureen! I've missed you!









Uh, and don't ALL moms have mood issues?


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## Magella

Hi there! Maureen, I can't believe Joey's in kindergarten! I wish I lived in Minnesota so I could come to your parenting center!

I will agree that age 3 really sucks. My little one will be 4 next month, and for the last few months has been in a really moody, stubborn, instigating mood. Also, she's been having existential crises. Not long ago she was weeping about not knowing where she was before she was born. The other day it was weeping about "I'm scared of dying." I mean, why can't my kids ask things I can answer (or at least find an answer to) like "why is the sky blue?"

My oldest, my challenging kiddo, is still struggling but doing better. We're no longer (knock on wood) dealing with the hour-long rages. She's still got the tic potpourri going on, she's still struggling with anxiety and aggression, and of course the sensory stuff. But it all seems to be getting better, slowly but surely. She's reading like a maniac now in 2nd grade. She's on book 5 of the Harry Potter series, plus she's got other books started too. A real bookworm! Takes after her old mom.

My son started kindergarten, is starting to read, and just lost his first tooth last night!! He's so excited about that! He's working through his existential dying stuff too (talks about it frequently and casually), seems pretty comfortable (at this moment) with death as (a sad) part of life. He loves learning, and I am having a wonderful time learning about things like space/the cosmos with him.

Oooooh, and I am taking a major personal risk too. I'm so shy and socially anxious, and rarely volunteer for any school stuff (fund raising, parent association, etc.) because of it. The school is starting up a Destination Imagination program, and I really wanted the kids to have an opportunity to participate but early on there weren't enough parents volunteering to manage teams for all the kids to participate. So I volunteered, which is really uncomfortable and scary. But so far it's going pretty well! I'm proud of myself, I have to say.

eta that I'm still struggling with my anger too but getting much better overall. I do agree that when it comes to parenting, so much is about us parents learning to deal with our own issues. Which is tough.


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## TEAK's Mom

Wow, it is so good to "see" all of you again. Thanks, Pat, for bumping this thread up. It is wonderful to see how far we have all come with our kids...

We're doing pretty well, too. TEAK (five and a half) is happily unschooling and researching everything under the sun. She reads and remembers everything. The other big thing for her is that she is taking a dance class this year. The kid who would not join a group of any kind EVER is now in a structured dance class working along with 14 other girls. She's still her quirky, sensitive self, but she is so strong, smart, and oh yeah, fuschia-haired.









ABKA is also three and in the throes of existential crises, too. Guess it's in the air this year. But, she is also growing so passionate. She's also taking dance and is amazing to watch. She is so focused and driven about it, but she also brings such joy to her work.

Like Bearsmama, I have more to say, but have to go.

Hugs to all!


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## PrennaMama

I was JUST recommending this thread to my dear friend. She is going through some big challenges with especially high needs boys... one of them is really just such a complicated case... she could really use some support and wisdom... I'm forwarding this to her...


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