# Too skimpy clothes? Or others should not look? Paranoia?



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

My neice, who is 14 yrs old, wears skimpy clothes. Recently, when at a relatives pool, her swim suit was so skimpy, honestly, I do not think I have seen one so skimpy any place I have gone, which includes public pools and beaches and such. It was strapless completely, but was sort of like a string bikini, with no strap, and was barely staying on, and barely covered. The bottoms did not cover much either. She kept having to adjust her top over and over again as it was not covering much of anything and seemed to be not quite fitted right either. It did not cover her chestal area, so there was...ummm...well..definition even below the top and above. As in, the fabric was maybe 3 inches wide? That is a complete guess. But, it was very skimpy. But, I know how my sister is, no point in saying anything, my sister bought it for her and thinks it is great. My sister is very very focused on her girls being popular and is willing to do what it takes to get them popular.

SO, the point of this post. My sister calls me, Apparently, my niece and one of her friends were at a public pool. They saw an older man there, who seemed to take some pictures with his cell phone. They decided that he MIGHT have taken pictures of them (even though they never saw him do it) and called the police. The police came out and questioned the man and my niece and her friend. Turned out, the guy was a grandpa there with his grandchildren. He did have a couple pictures on his camera...of his own grandchildren. My niece and her friends were not even in the background.

I actually did point out to my sister that if niece is dressed in such a way that she gets so upset at the idea that someone has a camera in public place and she might have ended up in one of the pictures, then maybe she should re-examine what she is wearing that makes her feel so worried about being caught in a picture. My sister said they thought that the guy was taking pictures of their rears and breasts. Ok..the guy did not even have a single picture on his camera with them in the background, but these girls, dressed like this (that is how niece was dressed, do not know how her friend was dressed) just assumed if he had a camera, it must have been for pictures of them. So apparently, Grandfathers cannot take their grandchildren out and take pictures of their own grandchildren because teenagers barely covered are worried about their pictures being taken? My sister just kept saying they have the right to wear swimsuits. In the course of the conversation, she said she would not have minded if it had been a teenaged boy taking pictures. I pointed out to her that if she thinks they are dressed so seductive that they are this scared of someone just having a camera out in public, then maybe they should not wear this sort of thing out in public. But my sister just keeps saying they have the right to wear whatever they want, but the grandpa should not have the right to have a camera there where someone like her daughter could end up in the picture. I think grandpa should have the right to take his own grandchildren to the pool and take pictures of his own grandchildren.

What do you think?


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree with you. But my line of thinking is if you dress like you work the corner then you can expect to be treated like such. I believe a person can dress sexy whatever without actually dressing like they work the corner. Its a huge conversation that DH and I have. Now that we have DD he notices the way younger people dress now and he is just disgusted that parents would allow their kids out like that when the fact is there are perverts out there and while the child/teen may be innocent the first impression always sticks and it sends the wrong message.

Sadly him and I go round and round and she isn't even a year old yet because IMO his thinking is way overboard where as I am more relaxed but I think there is a huge difference between class and well trash.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> But my sister just keeps saying they have the right to wear whatever they want, but the grandpa should not have the right to have a camera there where someone like her daughter could end up in the picture. I think grandpa should have the right to take his own grandchildren to the pool and take pictures of his own grandchildren.


I also agree with you and the poster above me.

Sure, your niece has the right to wear a bandaid as a swimsuit. She also will have the right to pick her nose in traffic. Either way, people will look and talk about her. She'd better get used to it.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I feel bad for the grandpa. I wonder if the teen girls were expecting/hoping to receive a bunch of attention, and so they automatically wrongly assumed that the old man was photographing them?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Ok, while I feel bad for the grandfather, I don't think that "if you don't want people looking/taking pictures of you, you should cover up" is the way to deal with it. Hostly, I don't really agree with cameras at the public pool just because you can never tell who the parents/grandparents are and who the people trying to take pictures of kids/people in swimsuits are. Your niece is not responsible for other peoples behaviour, she is apparently responsible enough to tell someone if something feels off to her whether she's right about it or not. I have to ask though, what is she going to do next time something seems off and she has previously been told "well if you don't want that kind of attention, do wear revealing things"? Especially at a pool, where most people are, by definition, wearing revealing things whether it is a one piece or two.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

The law says that anyone can take pictures of anything on public property. Don't like it? Swim at a private pool.


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## prone_to_wander (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't think the actual issue is that your niece is in skimpy clothes. The issue is that she thinks every old guy with a camera is a pervert. Her and her friend thought they were such hot stuff that they assumed that the poor grandpa was taking photos of them with no evidence other than he happened to have a camera. Shame on them for their drama-inducing Behavior


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prone_to_wander*
> 
> I don't think the actual issue is that your niece is in skimpy clothes. The issue is that she thinks every old guy with a camera is a pervert. Her and her friend thought they were such hot stuff that they assumed that the poor grandpa was taking photos of them with no evidence other than he happened to have a camera. Shame on them for their drama-inducing Behavior


exactly. and it would have been okay if it had been a younger guy?? what


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

Is your sister aware of things that got posted on sites by "young boys" (and girls) today? Has she heard of the pronographic sister site of youtube? she may not think it is so ok then when a young boy films her kid. Cuz I hate to break to her but its not just the older guys who are pervs.

It can be pretty ungly when a humilating video of you gets passed around school via the internet.


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

It is also pretty ugly that I can't edit my spelling errors. Sorry. pornographic and ugly.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

It's some of each, I think. I have a 17yo daughter. And yes, she wears skimpy swim suits. That fit. Does she attract attention? Of course she does. I also remember being her age, going to the beach and wearing a skimpy bikini. Sometimes it's from young men, sometimes it's older men... sometimes it's women. Some approve, some don't. And yes, some are a bit creepy. But I suspect they'd be creepy even if she was covered up. However, she also wouldn't freak out and assume the guy with the cell phone taking photos of her.

Your niece likely attracts more attention from the fact that her suit doesn't fit and she has to keep adjusting it than from the fact that it's skimpy.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Teenage girls in bathing suits attract attention, no matter how modest (or not) the bathing suits.

The issue is the idea that people aren't allowed to bring cameras places to take photos because people are afraid they might take other photos.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> I think grandpa should have the right to take his own grandchildren to the pool and take pictures of his own grandchildren.


Absolutely. He shouldn't have to worry about people calling the police. Sheesh.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think people should probably not take pictures at a public pool because other people may freak out. However, I also think people should not call the police just because they think someone may have taken a picture of them in a public place in the clothing they have chosen to wear in public.
I think people who photograph children and teens in swim suits for sexual gratification will do so even if the suit isn't skimpy. It doesn't make it more okay if the suit is a one piece vs. a skimpy bikini.

I think people should wear what they want. They should also be fully prepared that some clothes attract more attention. It sounds like the girl is aware that her suit will attract attention and now needs to get over the idea that only teenagers will look at her or wear something she feels comfortable with even a grandfather looking at.

I think it is most odd that it would have been okay with your sister for a teenaged boy to take a picture but not an older man.

I think it is sad if your sister and niece equate popularity with wearing skimpy clothes.

I think it is too bad your niece is wearing something ill fitting that she has to adjust all the time. That doesn't sound very comfortable or fun at all.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

My niece actually is exactly like that. I was having a hard time describing the attitude that goes on there. From the descriptions of what was going on, and from what i was seeing other times, she was acting very "silly" and flirty and loud and batty and whatever, and then got upset this man supposedly looked her way after she was bending over or something. She and her friend very specifically accused him of looking at their rears and chests (but they used different words for it) and my sister even admitted it would not have bothered her if it had been a teen boy gawking. But then the man, it turns out, was not gawking. No one at the pool backed up niece and her friends claims that he was doing anything but being at a pool with his grandchildren. And I have seen dramatics like this before. I just think if you are dressed so showy that you would call the police over something like that, then perhaps, you are dressed too showy.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prone_to_wander*
> 
> I don't think the actual issue is that your niece is in skimpy clothes. The issue is that she thinks every old guy with a camera is a pervert. Her and her friend thought they were such hot stuff that they assumed that the poor grandpa was taking photos of them with no evidence other than he happened to have a camera. Shame on them for their drama-inducing Behavior


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

so if taking pictures of your family at a public pool is horrible then I suppose taking pictures of your family at a beach is horrible too?

I ask because we are surrounded by beaches and people like to take pics of their families having fun. I had never thought to think it was wrong for someone to take a picture at any public place...it's public.

I don't care what people want to wear and if someone wants to wear a skimpy outfit thats fine. If your boobs are falling out the side or top or bottom of said outfit, yeah people are gonna stare at you....me included because I'm gonna be thinking, "wow couldn't find something that actually fits?" Is that judgemental? Sure but that would be my thought. Why would someone wear something blatantly too small that shows a ton of skin unless they were trying to attract attention? Too small clothing isn't exactly comfortable or fun to wear IME.

I also wouldn't assume an old guy taking pictures at a public pool was being a perv though, at no point was it said this guy was trying to HIDE his behavior like he was doing something wrong...The girl sounds full of herself, frankly.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> so if taking pictures of your family at a public pool is horrible then I suppose taking pictures of your family at a beach is horrible too?
> 
> ...


She is fourteen. She doesn't sound full of herself. She sounds like she needs a sane adult to give her some guidance. OP-- I think your sister should definitely be talking to her about her swimsuit/clothing choices and should definitely not encourage her to wear a suit that doesn't cover. Does she realize she is making her daughter a target? Not that it is right, but yeah, some perp is going to be more likely to take photos of her wherever if she's dressed like that versus another kid who isn't. And clearly she isn't comfortable with it herself if she is worried some grandpa photoing his grandkids is trying to perp on her.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> She is fourteen. She doesn't sound full of herself. She sounds like she needs a sane adult to give her some guidance. OP-- I think your sister should definitely be talking to her about her swimsuit/clothing choices and should definitely not encourage her to wear a suit that doesn't cover. Does she realize she is making her daughter a target? Not that it is right, but yeah, some perp is going to be more likely to take photos of her wherever if she's dressed like that versus another kid who isn't. And clearly she isn't comfortable with it herself if she is worried some grandpa photoing his grandkids is trying to perp on her.


how is not full of yourself to assume a random person taking pictures at a public place is targeting you? I don't see someone with a camera out and assume he must be taking pics of me (regardless of age) just because I am in a bathing suit! I never thought that as a teen either. I actually don't know anyone IRL who has felt that way before.

Maybe the girl isn't full of herself she is just fully aware that her bathing suit is too small and is paranoid because of that, in which case I feel really bad for her and her mother needs to get a clue.

OP are you the same poster who had a thread a while back about this mom and her daughter's again and how obsessed with popularity the mom was and she wouldn't let your kid hang out with the girls or something? Or maybe another poster.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

She actually is kind of full of herself. She is very pretty and knows it. She does not really have rules. She and my sister gave my daughter a very hard time when my daughter refused to wear a similar swim suit, telling her that unless she wears something like that, she will never have a boyfriend and then never get married. She is a very "flaunt it if you've got it" kind of person. Although, I do think that when someone acts this way, it is a huge sign of insecurity. My sister encourages this behavior.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> She is fourteen. She doesn't sound full of herself. She sounds like she needs a sane adult to give her some guidance. OP-- I think your sister should definitely be talking to her about her swimsuit/clothing choices and should definitely not encourage her to wear a suit that doesn't cover. Does she realize she is making her daughter a target? Not that it is right, but yeah, some perp is going to be more likely to take photos of her wherever if she's dressed like that versus another kid who isn't. And clearly she isn't comfortable with it herself if she is worried some grandpa photoing his grandkids is trying to perp on her.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> how is not full of yourself to assume a random person taking pictures at a public place is targeting you? I don't see someone with a camera out and assume he must be taking pics of me (regardless of age) just because I am in a bathing suit! I never thought that as a teen either. I actually don't know anyone IRL who has felt that way before.
> 
> ...


She is fourteen. Again. She has a lot of growing up to do. And OP, I see you also just replied that your sister encourages the behavior. How is she supposed to *learn* when her own mother is encouraging that sort of behavior? I feel sorry for her and think we should judge children a little less harshly Ldavis--especially ones who clearly don't have someone explaining to them why you might not want to wear a swimsuit like that at age fourteen (the likes of which OP claims she hasn't even seen anywhere else....and I've seen some pretty skanky swimsuits...guessing she has too) at a public pool.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I sound old and stuffy saying this but I am shocked by what I am seeing teen girls wearing these days. I was at a family event over the weekend and one 17 yo old girl was dressed like she was ready to walk the streets, it was so extreme. I feel sorry for these girls, in a way, because I don't know that they understand what sort of message they are sending and they don't know how to handle the negative attention "sexy" dressing can bring on.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

That was me! I think I also posted about my niece dating at 10 yrs old and having tons of make up. It is just sad. I am still friends with my sister, but if you dare say anything, she gets very defensive. I really care. But I am just frustrated with the situation. There is a lot to it obviously. But yes, same sister.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> how is not full of yourself to assume a random person taking pictures at a public place is targeting you? I don't see someone with a camera out and assume he must be taking pics of me (regardless of age) just because I am in a bathing suit! I never thought that as a teen either. I actually don't know anyone IRL who has felt that way before.
> 
> ...


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *new2this*
> 
> I agree with you. *But my line of thinking is if you dress like you work the corner then you can expect to be treated like such. I believe a person can dress sexy whatever without actually dressing like they work the corner*. Its a huge conversation that DH and I have. Now that we have DD he notices the way younger people dress now and he is just disgusted that parents would allow their kids out like that when the fact is there are perverts out there and while the child/teen may be innocent the first impression always sticks and it sends the wrong message.
> 
> Sadly him and I go round and round and she isn't even a year old yet because IMO his thinking is way overboard where as I am more relaxed but I think there is a huge difference between class and well trash.


How should a person who works on a corner (or dresses like one) be treated? I don't want my daughter dressing in skimpy clothing, but I'm not liking the attitude that if she does, it's ok to treat her a certain way. I have a friend who dresses in clothes that I find too revealing for my taste, but she deserves every bit of respect as anyone else.

This isn't as much in response to the post about the swimming pool incident (poor guy!), but just looking at our attitudes in general that some people deserve maltreatment based on whatever we think justifies it.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

Teenagers in general are very full of themselves. However this girl if 14 and from the sounds of it has no real guidance on how to act, dress and has a mom that seems to be more worried about being a friend then a parent.

I have no problem with two piece suits however I also think there are classy ones as well as skanky ones. People can wear what they want but then be prepared to be judged, talked about whatever. While you can't control others behavior you can control your own and that includes how one presents themselves. It also speaks a lot about how one views themselves. And I do believe people dress how they want to be treated, just as they act how they want to be treated. Some people say/do things to attract any type of attention to themselves be it good or bad.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> She is fourteen. Again. She has a lot of growing up to do. And OP, I see you also just replied that your sister encourages the behavior. How is she supposed to *learn* when her own mother is encouraging that sort of behavior? I feel sorry for her and think we should judge children a little less harshly Ldavis--especially ones who clearly don't have someone explaining to them why you might not want to wear a swimsuit like that at age fourteen (the likes of which OP claims she hasn't even seen anywhere else....and I've seen some pretty skanky swimsuits...guessing she has too) at a public pool.


i don't think I'm judging her particularly harshly to say she is full of herself...Does being 14 somehow exempt one from being full of themselves...Misguided yes, but still full of herself..The OP confirms that yes the girl is full of herself...I'm not going to sit and pretend that it's not how she is behaving with the OP confirms it because you personally think it is too harsh....14 is NOT a child...Not an adult but not a child...

I do feel bad for this girl because she is clearly not getting any guidance from her mother that is helpful but that doesn't exempt the girl from being full of herself, it's not like I think she is a bad person but I'll call a spade a spade when I see one and not try to tap dance around thinking of the most "gentle" way to say what my point actually is.

If it was my niece I'd be feeling really bad for her but I'd also probably tell her she was full of herself...Then I'd ask niece if she'd like me to buy her a properly fitting bathing suit and Mom can have a cow about it or niece can hide it and wear it when mom isn't around so she is at least comfortable, although if niece thinks she is hot stuff maybe she likes wearing something to small who knows....I know all that is incredibly MDC incorrect though.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

It's pretty common for young teens to be full of drama and self absorbed/self referential. It wouldn't surprise me that girls that age thought the entire world was looking at them, much less thinking someone was taking pictures of them. I commonly hear my kid and her friends thinking that everyone is noticing something about them, leading them to die of embarrassment. It's the age, IMO.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

OP, ok I thought that was you again! I remember that thread about your sister (the mom is your sister right?) and how she is really kinda nuts sounding.

Ugh, good luck with that mess..if you can sneak a time to talk to niece alone maybe just ask if she'd like a bathing suit that fits better? She probably will say no but you could always offer to buy her one and while it would probably create drama with mom, maybe the niece would really appreciate...It would drive me nuts to see girls trying to navigate what is an incredibly awkward/difficult age with a mom who probably just makes things worse a lot of times.

ETA...karne, I think you nailed it. I remember my friends and I used to think everyone was paying attention to us all the time...mostly what we were getting was eye rolls because we were loud/annoying/acting like idiots so yeah maybe we we were getting looked at but nearly as much as we would have liked to think. Teens after all are the center of their own very special universe.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

It was in April I think, I just remember it was before younger niece's 11th birthday. Niece had a date..a one on one date with a boy, with no adults and it was not a group thing. My sister was supposed to drop niece off at the movie theater where the boy was meeting her. I do not know how old the boy was. But the boy apparently did not show. So my sister said she wanted to cheer her daughter up after being stood up so asked me to go out to eat with her. We met up and in comes niece, with heavy make up on, talking on her cell phone, at 10 yrs old. Niece was supposedly grounded from the cell phone for refusing to take her TAKs test or something like that (TAKs is a state mandated benchmark test here). But my sister said she is letting her be on the phone anyway because she feels bad about being stood up. Younger niece has been in cheer since before 3 yrs old. There was a thing there where you are not supposed to be in it until 3 but my sister always insists her daughter is so mature, she should be in with the older kids. She used the same logic to have her children out of their car seats by 2 yrs old (which clearly has nothing to do with it). A lot of the cheerleaders, even when little, wear a lot of makeup. I just always thought they only wore the make up for their shows. But niece was wearing it for her date. Then niece proceeds to baby talk to my son who is a year younger and take his knife out of his hand while saying "knife....sharp" in a very baby tone. I told her to give the knife back, he is not a baby and he is not younger than her (he was spreading butter on his bread). Then I get told that niece just is so much more mature than my son. My son is not immature, and I don't think acting sexual and wearing tons of makeup at 10 yrs old makes you "mature." My son was the mature one who handled having the knife yanked out of his hand very well. He never got upset and let me resolve it and then got his knife back and went on buttering his bread. And older niece does not invite my daughter, who is 7 months older, to her things, like birthday parties. Niece actually originally would invite my daughter and my sister would tell me privately not to bring her because she wants her daughter to be a cheerleader and "this is too important" and my daughter does not fit in. There is nothing wrong with my daughter. She just is not the outspoken type. She plays in the city orchestra and does very well in school. She is not rude or judgemental (my niece is though, so is my sister). My niece in recent times has given my daughter a hard time about how my daughter dresses. There is nothing wrong with how my daughter dresses. But my daughter went to a pool party and told niece about it because a boy my daughter likes was going to be there. That is when niece started in big time on my daughter that my daughter's swim suit will make her stand out and be humiliated and all that. The boy, and all the other kids at the party, went to private Catholic schools. My daughter wore a tankini. Of the other girls, they were all in 1 peices or tankinis, or at least bikinis that covered more. The boys all wore the traditional boxer short looking suits. But my niece and sister were relentless toward my daughter, insisting that she would be humiliated and everyone would laugh at her and even point at her because of her swim suit. In the end, DD fit in just fine in her tankini.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> how is not full of yourself to assume a random person taking pictures at a public place is targeting you? I don't see someone with a camera out and assume he must be taking pics of me (regardless of age) just because I am in a bathing suit! I never thought that as a teen either. I actually don't know anyone IRL who has felt that way before.
> 
> ...


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> ETA...karne, I think you nailed it. I remember my friends and I used to think everyone was paying attention to us all the time...mostly what we were getting was eye rolls because we were loud/annoying/acting like idiots so yeah maybe we we were getting looked at but nearly as much as we would have liked to think. Teens after all are the center of their own very special universe.


I try to be all Zen about this when I hear how MORTIFIED my kid is about, well, everything, these days. I can also remember being 14 and thinking my friends and I were pretty hot stuff. That's no help to you, OP, but just saying, I remember....


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *new2this*
> 
> Teenagers in general are very full of themselves. However this girl if 14 and from the sounds of it has no real guidance on how to act, dress and has a mom that seems to be more worried about being a friend then a parent.
> 
> I have no problem with two piece suits however I also think there are classy ones as well as skanky ones. People can wear what they want but then be prepared to be judged, talked about whatever. While you can't control others behavior you can control your own and that includes how one presents themselves. It also speaks a lot about how one views themselves. And I do believe people dress how they want to be treated, just as they act how they want to be treated. Some people say/do things to attract any type of attention to themselves be it good or bad.


This.

I feel sorry for the girl. Sounds like she is actually very insecure--probably because she is trying to navigate this crazy world w/out the proper guidance.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm biased against this topic anyway because while I could care less what others wear DH and I are in agreement that DD won't be owning a 2 piece bathing suit until she can buy one with her own money. She just turned 2 and got a 2 piece from my step MIL...I was so pissed. I have made it pretty clear to my family in general how I feel about my DD wearing 2 pieces as a toddler...More than just the fact that I (personally) think it looks weird/bad on babies/toddlers but I prefer DD to actually wear something that covers her skin and protects her from the sun. We are a rash guard on toddlers kinda family.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

And for the record, I really do love my nieces and my sister. Our other sister tried to talk to this sister about how her daughters are dressing, but younger sister just said older sister doesn't get it because she has no children. I am very concerned about what is going to happen in the long run with my nieces. Also, I do not think someone who acts this way can be that happy with herself. There is a lot more my sister does that I have not posted about that indicates she is not very happy with herself. I wish wish wish I could "fix" this, but I know we cannot just "fix" other's problems. I wish these problems were not being projected on to my nieces too.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> How should a person who works on a corner (or dresses like one) be treated? I don't want my daughter dressing in skimpy clothing, but I'm not liking the attitude that if she does, it's ok to treat her a certain way. I have a friend who dresses in clothes that I find too revealing for my taste, but she deserves every bit of respect as anyone else.
> 
> This isn't as much in response to the post about the swimming pool incident (poor guy!), but just looking at our attitudes in general that some people deserve maltreatment based on whatever we think justifies it.


Well....IMO, someone who works the corner is offering herself up as an object to be used. Is it surprising that society then objectifies these women? Gawking at someone is now "maltreatment"? Really?

On a side note, people who wear revealing clothing do not bother me. People who wear revealing clothing and then complain that people are looking at them DO bother me. Why are you showing most of your chest if you don't want people to look at it? Why do your shorts begin an inch above your pubic hair and not cover your cheeks if you don't want people to look?

I think people need to examine what they are trying to say about themselves when they get dressed. If your goal is to look sexy, then you can hardly become upset when you attract attention.

And if you are dining out with your D-cups pushed up and all your cleavage showing, believe me....it's not an accident that all the waitstaff is walking by your table. Depending upon their sexual orientation, they are either checking you out or laughing at you in the kitchen.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

it's like the woman who wears the low cut tank top with the word BITCH splashed across the chest in glitter, getting really offended at people looking at her...give me a break, you wore that shirt specifically so people would stare at you.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Well....IMO, someone who works the corner is offering herself up as an object to be used. Is it surprising that society then objectifies these women? Gawking at someone is now "maltreatment"? Really?
> 
> ...


I wasn't thinking of gawking, actually, but your post does bring up some questions for me. How much gawking is acceptable? What is the point of gawking? At what point does gawking=maltreatment. Does it matter how the person being gawked at feels about it? How does gender play into this? Is it different depending on the age of a woman 15? 25? 40? 6? Does her financial status play into whether it's ok to gawk at her. How about cat calls? What about other attractive parts of us that are considered erotic by some? Neck nape? Hair? Inside of elbows? How much leg, arms or chest is ok? How is this idea played out in countries where women are expected to cover?

Also, what if the woman wants the attention, judgement, cat calls, etc? Does that make it ok, even then? If someone wants to be treated badly, does that make it ok to treat them badly?

IMO, noticing someone isn't the same as gawking at them. Gawking is meant to make someone feel judged, objectified, disrespected, odd. Catching someone's eye is not the same as catching someone's eye and then having them stare at you for an uncomfortable amount of time. I saw a woman yesterday who was dressed and positioned in a way that made me wonder if she was prostitute. I don't think it would be ok for me to gawk at her or otherwise treat her in any other disrespectful way. I might not want to strike up a conversation with her, but that's my own boundary.

I'm not sure why some of the responses on this thread make me feel like this is as much of a feminist issue as anything else. The girl's situation is real that she needs a good role model and may be having some difficulty in her life that makes it hard for her to know how to present herself. There's no question about that, but the underlying attitude? Maybe someone else can put into better words than I can.


----------



## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

I think this is the same ole "woman dresses in skimpy clothes and gets raped and then society blames her for the rape because of the way she was dressed" argument all over again, isn't it?


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chicky2*
> 
> I think this is the same ole "woman dresses in skimpy clothes and gets raped and then society blames her for the rape because of the way she was dressed" argument all over again, isn't it?


Kind of, but rape is less subtle. I'm thinking of more subtle acts. Acts that most people think are ok at first glance.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Does your niece feel comfortable in this clothing or would she like a bathing suit she didn't have to adjust all the time? Did she choose it or did her mother?

If she chose it and her mother approved, then really nothing you say will help. If your sister chose it for your niece, then you can perhaps ask your niece if she'd like a swimsuit that would allow her to horse around without worrying. You can suggest a bikini with a strap over the neck or shoulders. You can mention to your sister that you noticed your niece wasn't able to have as much fun because she had to worry about her suit as much, 'and you know, if she's worrying about her suit, she's not going to be doing the social interaction she needs at this age..'.

I won't buy a suit for my daughter that makes her visibly uncomfortable, but I can't really control what others buy for their kids. If my daughter were to suggest a suit like that, I'd take her through the steps of "what do you think is going to happen when you jump into the pool?" If she wanted to spend her money on it? I dunno.

Aside from that, I feel sorry for the grandpa, and sorry for your niece.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I'm biased against this topic anyway because while I could care less what others wear DH and I are in agreement that DD won't be owning a 2 piece bathing suit until she can buy one with her own money. She just turned 2 and got a 2 piece from my step MIL...I was so pissed. I have made it pretty clear to my family in general how I feel about my DD wearing 2 pieces as a toddler...More than just the fact that I (personally) think it looks weird/bad on babies/toddlers but I prefer DD to actually wear something that covers her skin and protects her from the sun. We are a rash guard on toddlers kinda family.


My 10 year old picked this one out:

http://www.childrensplace.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10001_-1_672850_137020_27151%7C133141_girl%7Cswimwear_girl

(it is about as skimpy as I'll allow--some showing of the belly--maybe 1 1/2 inches. She will wear a cover-up when not in the water.)

This is something like I want to get for my 2 year old:

http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=537149&parentCategoryId=85179&categoryId=117679 and http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=537154&parentCategoryId=85179&categoryId=117679

Two pieces, how we generally think of two-pieces (itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka-dot bikini, anyone?) are inappropriate for tots and small children. But, ones that happen to be two-piece, but cover as much or more than a one-piece (and there are plenty of those that we'd probably consider inappropriate--plunging necklines, high-cut thighs, strappy--all on the same suit), IMO are fine.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes*
> 
> My 10 year old picked this one out:
> 
> ...


yeah I should specify bikinis is what I mean by 2 pieces


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

Oh those are cute. Yeah when I say 2 piece I mean bikini not tankini. I bought DD a tankini and a one piece. I will take the tankini over a one piece any day. So much easier to deal with changes..lol But I myself wear a tankini and not one pieces.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP, it seems kind of bizarre that you'd still associate with a woman who excludes your daughter from her daughter's parties, and even directly tells your daughter that she'll never have a boyfriend or get married. This is so not a cool way to treat your daughter.

I recall how hurt I was when my mom continued her friendship with another mom who couldn't stand me. Her son was a year older than me and used to call me mean names, pretty much relentlessly, and make fun of my appearance. He lived next door to one of my friends, which was also a very short distance from my own house, One day an older girl told me about a really mean taunt I could use on him. I tried it the next time he tried to pick on me, and he literally burst out crying in front of his friends and ran in to his mom, who came out and screamed at me.

She also said hateful things about me to my mom, and my mom agreed with me that she was being unreasonable, but my mom kept on having lunch with this woman because she felt sorry for her because of all her mental problems and the fact that she was raising her son alone.

I realize that my mom just felt like I should realize that I was better than these people and feel sorry for them, but all I could see was that it really didn't matter to her that this woman didn't like me or that her son was picking on me.

I kind of wonder if that's how you see your sister and neice's treatment of your dd -- if you feel like your dd is better off not "fitting in" with them anyway (I don't disagree with you there!). While I'll admit that I'd rather not have my dd hanging out with people like that -- and I'm talking more about your sister's mentality than however her daughter dresses -- I also wouldn't have someone like that in our lives.

I think that, from your vanatage point as a mother, their treatment of your daughter should be the main issue, not the daughter's idiotic harassment of other people who are unfortunate enough to be trying to enjoy a fun family outing anywhere in her vicinity.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

It sounds like your sister is trying to be your niece's friend instead of her mother. Being blessed to be almost 40, I feel for your niece, because she has a long road ahead of her. Why, since the great invention of Facebook and now us old people are on it, you see how others have turned out. So being last year was the hs reunion, everyone spent time catching up or finding each other on Facebook. Those girls who behaved and were allowed to behave like your niece turned out not so good. One is even doing to her own daughter what your sister is. She also complains to whomever will listen how she has no control over her blah blah blah. My best friend and I LOL'd because that is exactly how she behaved when she was her daughter's age! I might add the complainer who was a major brat all of jr high and HS, is on her 3rd husband at age 39. That crowd of girls all have 2 and 3 marriages, kids when they were 17-20 and the father is no where fast, also their quality of life is not the one they were raised in. They also wear very worried at that age of being popular, wearing the slutty outfits (a word from our time) and of course getting a boyfriend and based on what I just wrote, know what THAT got them. So yes, as I am approaching that time of having a teen sooner than later, yes I am going to be the mean parent who says no. I would rather have a pissed off teen, than a pregnt one or worse, a deceased one.

I dont know your sister's history, but is she trying to relive her youth thru her daughter?

Also, regarding 2 piece bathing suits. Had a similar issue this week with my 9 yr old. I know a pp said how she didnt want her dd wearing any 2 piece anything. Of course your dd is not old enough to articulate going to the bathroom while at the pool LOL. Both my daughters like having the 2 piece mainly because, its easier to manuaver in the bathrooms. But at the public pool near our house, I have seen anything and everything for the 2 piece bathing suits. Several moms wear the 2 pieces that cover everything, but are more comfortable. Also, several moms wear bikinis. Most look wonderful in them but there are a few that need to leave the bikini at home. There are also 12-14 yr old girls in the suits the OP described and again, some look fine but others, need to invest in a good 1 piece, the bikini is not happening for the big girls.

My daughter this year wanted to get a few 2 pieces, mainly for the bathroom but also to be fashionable. We went to the local dept store. She found a few 2 piece as she refered to them, I call bikinis. I also picked out a few that were 2 pieces. I let her try on the bikinis and yes they looked adorable (had a bra type top but also ruffle and a small bottom) but I told her she had to be older to wear these type suits. She then tried on my picks and they looked again adorable but more athletic looking. I pointed out they would be easier to swim in, work better on the slides etc. So we got them and she wore on the next day. Her best friend saw the one suit- had a boy type short and a halter type top and said- 'wow you're so lucky! My mom said I had to be 13 first!'

When I told the story to DH, he thinks dd knew all along the bikini was out of the question but played along in order to get the 2 piece style suits. Sort of give out an inital offer and work your way back and forth. I would not put that idea past her.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I never thought it might bother my daughter for us to continue to see them and such. I will talk to my daughter about it. We talk about a lot and I do stand up for her when they start in on her. We don't see a ton of them. But thanks for bringing up this point. They don't call my daughter names or anything. They tell her that her clothes are too frumpy and that she needs to wear this or that or she will never have a boyfriend, and she NEEDS a boyfriend and things like that. The stuff about my daughter's swimsuit, and so on. It is not like it goes on the whole time or every time. Today, we saw them for maybe 30 minutes and not a thing was said about it. In fact, they talked about summer plans with no one throwing insults.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> OP, it seems kind of bizarre that you'd still associate with a woman who excludes your daughter from her daughter's parties, and even directly tells your daughter that she'll never have a boyfriend or get married. This is so not a cool way to treat your daughter.
> 
> ...


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

That is how all her friends are. They had babies young, as in 14 or so. They have generally been married multiple times. My sister said she is one of the only people of her friends who did not have a baby before 16 and who has not been married multiple times. Our mother was a rotten mother who only kept custody of us sometimes. Toward the end there (and I am older) my sister ended up living with my mother while I lived elsewhere and then when I went to college. My mother did not parent her and bought her everything and gave her everything. She felt that being popular was very important and often expressed that she hated how I was, in that I was an honor roll student, didn't have tons of friends, did volunteer work, etc. She liked that my sister was on drill team. (I would have loved to have been a cheer leader, but I was never that coordinated and always quite shy, I tried out once and did not make it). She loved that my sister had friends that she was always gone hanging out with while I had friends that liked being in the library instead. That revolted our mother and she made it clear what she found acceptable and what not. I was not acceptable. I think my sister was really affected by this because I think she learned early on that it is not OK to be smart and calm and less popular. I was not a hated child, I did have friends. It is just my friends were more likely to be on the math club than spend the night out surfing in cars with no one knowing where we were. My sister is younger than me and saw what I went through so I suspect she learned early on what is acceptable and what is not.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amys1st*
> 
> It sounds like your sister is trying to be your niece's friend instead of her mother. Being blessed to be almost 40, I feel for your niece, because she has a long road ahead of her. Why, since the great invention of Facebook and now us old people are on it, you see how others have turned out. So being last year was the hs reunion, everyone spent time catching up or finding each other on Facebook. Those girls who behaved and were allowed to behave like your niece turned out not so good. One is even doing to her own daughter what your sister is. She also complains to whomever will listen how she has no control over her blah blah blah. My best friend and I LOL'd because that is exactly how she behaved when she was her daughter's age! I might add the complainer who was a major brat all of jr high and HS, is on her 3rd husband at age 39. That crowd of girls all have 2 and 3 marriages, kids when they were 17-20 and the father is no where fast, also their quality of life is not the one they were raised in. They also wear very worried at that age of being popular, wearing the slutty outfits (a word from our time) and of course getting a boyfriend and based on what I just wrote, know what THAT got them. So yes, as I am approaching that time of having a teen sooner than later, yes I am going to be the mean parent who says no. I would rather have a pissed off teen, than a pregnt one or worse, a deceased one.
> 
> ...


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> I'm not sure why some of the responses on this thread make me feel like this is as much of a feminist issue as anything else. The girl's situation is real that she needs a good role model and may be having some difficulty in her life that makes it hard for her to know how to present herself. There's no question about that, but the underlying attitude? Maybe someone else can put into better words than I can.


I think you are really right about this. Unfortunately, there are lots of underlying attitudes held by the general public that aren't ideal. But that is the world we live in, and since it is, I think it is important that our kids know that they are going to receive negative attention for dresssing certain ways. Assumptions will be made, right or wrong, and kids needs to understand that so they can make good choices. This girl is young, and she isn't obviously secure about her swimsuit choice or she wouldn't have suspected this poor grandpa of trying to perp on her.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> i don't think I'm judging her particularly harshly to say she is full of herself...Does being 14 somehow exempt one from being full of themselves...Misguided yes, but still full of herself..The OP confirms that yes the girl is full of herself...I'm not going to sit and pretend that it's not how she is behaving with the OP confirms it because you personally think it is too harsh....14 is NOT a child...Not an adult but not a child...
> 
> ...


Why? Someone who has to tell a 14 year old that she is "full of herself" has a lot of growing up to do themselves. What would the point be? It is just a nasty thing to say. Pretty much every fourteen year old on the planet seems to think that all eyes are on him/her. Its developmental. Regardless of what OP says, and I know she is the aunt, I think OP and others are misinterpreting that this kid is so "full of herself." It sounds like she has a really poor self esteem and that she thinks her value is entirely tied to her popularity, appearance, and getting attention through dressing like a skank. She's purposely objectifying herself and probably thinks that is where her value lies. And even worse, she has nobody to guide or coach her since it sounds like her mom is the main person perpetuating all of this.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I agree, the full of themselves has nothing to do with nothing, its the age. I would not engage it if I came upon a 14 yr old. But OTH, OP thanks for the response, I feel bad for your sister and your niece that she was raised that the only way is being popular etc. Sadly she will have those boyfriends and attract some wanted attention that will be bad. And she will look for love in these means. Yuck.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> They tell her that her clothes are too frumpy and that she needs to wear this or that or she will never have a boyfriend, and she NEEDS a boyfriend and things like that.


Bah. I'm frumpy, and I got a husband. 

OP, I feel for your niece - that sounds like a very warped environment to grow up in. It does sound like she's well aware of the effect a skimpy bathing suit can have on boys, though - as in, it sounds like that was her motive in wearing it, not just random self-expression (judging by her comments to your daughter). So perhaps someone ought to remind her that it's not only young, single, hot, eligible boys with their own cars who will notice her body. She will also be noticed by unpopular boys, ugly boys, geeky boys, creepy boys, and men who are much much older than boys. It's up to her what she chooses to do with that information, but she should realise that you can't attract sexual attention that selectively. You know? I mean, obviously a man old enough to be her grandfather checking her out (if indeed he was) is creepy; but I've noticed an attitude among certain girls that "You don't have the right to look at me if you're fat/unpopular/not my type", and it's possible your niece has that attitude too. In which case, a reality check might be in order. A, she won't just be noticed by "desirable" people; and B, their lack of desirability doesn't automatically make them creepy (at least, no more creepy than the desirable guys who are ogling her!).

And yes, "Don't wear things in public that you'd be ashamed to have show up in the background of someone else's photo" is generally sound advice...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama* 



> Pretty much every fourteen year old on the planet seems to think that all eyes are on him/her. Its developmental.


Is this a girl thing? Or a school thing? My kids never went through that stage.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I never thought it might bother my daughter for us to continue to see them and such. I will talk to my daughter about it. We talk about a lot and I do stand up for her when they start in on her. We don't see a ton of them. But thanks for bringing up this point. They don't call my daughter names or anything. They tell her that her clothes are too frumpy and that she needs to wear this or that or she will never have a boyfriend, and she NEEDS a boyfriend and things like that. The stuff about my daughter's swimsuit, and so on. It is not like it goes on the whole time or every time. Today, we saw them for maybe 30 minutes and not a thing was said about it. In fact, they talked about summer plans with no one throwing insults.


I'm sure that you know your daughter better than I do and I know you'll make a good decision! I obviously don't know these people, but from what I'm reading here, I honestly don't see any way in which this relationship could be beneficial to you or your dd. At the same time, it sounds like it could be very beneficial to your niece to have at least one sane person in her life!

I agree with the poster who suggests that you take your niece aside and ask her if she might like a bathing suit that enables her to have fun in the water and not always have to worry about something getting inadvertently exposed and being memorialized in the background of someone's photo. If you can afford it and you know about what her size is, you might even buy her something that's very pretty, flattering, and reasonably modest, just so she'll have that option when she doesn't feel like constantly having to check and adjust a few tiny inches of fabric.

This is certainly no more disrespectful of your sister's values than her dire warnings to your daughter, about some looming life of old maidliness if she doesn't start exposing herself to all and sundry, are of your values.

Yeah, I agree with the posters who say that all women are human beings deserving of respect regardless of how they dress or conduct themselves sexually. That said, I don't like the idea of a young girl being pressured to put her body out there like that.

And, from what you've said, it sounds like your mom never respected your personhood or your sister's personhood, and, while you managed to get enough distance from her to develop a healthy sense of self-respect, your sister has just absorbed your mom's viewpoint.

She doesn't seem, at this time, to have the capacity to even realize that people are unique individuals and not shapeless masses of meat that can be shoved into a mould and baked by pressure and threats until they are set to live out her dreams (that were baked into her by her own mom) for life.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

OP wrote:

"...older niece does not invite my daughter, who is 7 months older, to her things, like birthday parties. Niece actually originally would invite my daughter and my sister would tell me privately not to bring her because she wants her daughter to be a cheerleader and "this is too important" and my daughter does not fit in."

There is SO much ore going on here than bathing suit choices. Your sister is making incredibly unhealthy choices in her parenting. I'm no fan of breaking off family relationships unless it's 100% necessary, but certainly, you need to convey to your own kids that Auntie X's priorities are screwed up.

Another poster wrote:

"IMO, someone who works the corner is offering herself up as an object to be used. Is it surprising that society then objectifies these women? Gawking at someone is now "maltreatment"? Really?"

Encountering a hooker (or somebody dressed like a hooker) doesn't mean you should act like a john. The rules of social engagement don't change based on what other people are wearing. When in doubt, treat a stranger the want you'd want your mother/father/son/daughter to be treated, and you'll never go wrong.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Is this a girl thing? Or a school thing? My kids never went through that stage.


I think it may be a girl thing. When I was young teen back in the late 70's, my friends and I used to get all excited imagining that cars were following us when we were out walking places. It honestly never occurred to us to talk to the police about it. It just gave us a thrill to quickly turn a corner and follow a weird route, in an attempt to evade the criminal, and we were so excited if we saw the same car, or what looked like the same car, pass by a moment later. And a little disappointed if the "stalker" was too easy to "shake."

That's about as far as we got with this game back in the 70's. The modern games seem to get a little more graphic. We recently went to the park one day when there were a few teen or preteen girls and no one else, and they kind of acted self conscious as we approached. As we were walking up, I'd heard one of them say something like, "Okay, now it's my turn to be the rapist"...but then they saw us and didn't seem comfortable continuing, which was probably just as well.

Ah, to be young again, and feel like other people actually care what I look like and what I'm wearing...


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## rhianna813 (Apr 3, 2009)

I didn't read all the other responses, but I think this is not about your neices bikini. Just as you quote, your sister wants to draw attention to her kids. Her kids were not near this guys camera and it would not matter what they were wearing. She is looking for attention. Bringing up her kid's clothing choices with her, would probably just fuel the need for attention. Hopefully she is embarassed at falsely accusing this guy who did nothing wrong. Maybe she will step her family a little out of the self made limelight.

Rhianna

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> But, I know how my sister is, no point in saying anything, my sister bought it for her and thinks it is great. My sister is very very focused on her girls being popular and is willing to do what it takes to get them popular.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

LOL, I just got an off-the-wall idea. If you do find out that your niece actually would occasionally like to just be comfortable and not so near-naked, but she's scared of getting slammed by her mom for withholding her stuff from the eyes of the world, you could occasionally slip her some contraband comfy clothes. She could leave the house wearing next to nothing to please her mom, and then stop at the nearest bathroom and pull the contraband clothes out of her bag.

Of course, there's always the risk that some grandparents will be out on the town with their grandkids, and her modestly-clothed image could inadvertently end up in the background of one of the photos on their facebook page. Is your sister the sort to make new (elderly) fb friends and take an interest in grandparently fb photos? Do you think it's worth the risk?

I think she'll survive the wretched shock and sense of betrayal, if your niece is actually brave enough to rebel.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Is this a girl thing? Or a school thing? My kids never went through that stage.


It is a teenage thing. Developmentally kids that age tend to think people are way more aware of/interested in their zit, clothes, hair, whatever than they are.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Why? Someone who has to tell a 14 year old that she is "full of herself" has a lot of growing up to do themselves. What would the point be? It is just a nasty thing to say. Pretty much every fourteen year old on the planet seems to think that all eyes are on him/her. Its developmental. Regardless of what OP says, and I know she is the aunt, I think OP and others are misinterpreting that this kid is so "full of herself." It sounds like she has a really poor self esteem and that she thinks her value is entirely tied to her popularity, appearance, and getting attention through dressing like a skank. She's purposely objectifying herself and probably thinks that is where her value lies. And even worse, she has nobody to guide or coach her since it sounds like her mom is the main person perpetuating all of this.


so now it's not gentle/ap enough to say to a TEENAGER to stop acting so full of themselves? Please, if my kid is being a brat/ass and is acting full of themself they are going to be told they are. It's one thing to be full of yourself and have it not affect anyone else. It is quite another to have an old man accosted by police because you are full of yourself.

I do agree with most of what you are saying and to this particular girl I wouldn't say such a thing because she does have a lot of other issues going on but if my teenage kid is being an ass or is acting full of themself I'm going to say that to them. "Hey kid, I love you, you are being an ass/full of yourself"...A teen is not a 5 year old. I am not going to mince my every word and be terrified of shattering my kid's precious ego. Sometimes teens are asses and most of the time they are full of themselves...Thank you for calling me immature though because I wouldn't tiptoe around my kids crappy behavior.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think of myself as pretty far gentle on the spectrum here, and I've told my 9-year-old that everything isn't about her, which is really the same sentiment. It's an important part of maturity to learn that everything isn't about you, and kids need to hear it from somewhere. I don't think "Get over yourself" is such a harsh thing to say, particularly depending on tone. And this girl needs to hear it in some way. She doesn't get to decide whether other people bring cameras to the pool. She should get to decide how she's dressed, within reasonable limits.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> so now it's not gentle/ap enough to say to a TEENAGER to stop acting so full of themselves? Please, if my kid is being a brat/ass and is acting full of themself they are going to be told they are. It's one thing to be full of yourself and have it not affect anyone else. It is quite another to have an old man accosted by police because you are full of yourself.
> 
> I do agree with most of what you are saying and to this particular girl I wouldn't say such a thing because she does have a lot of other issues going on but if my teenage kid is being an ass or is acting full of themself I'm going to say that to them. "Hey kid, I love you, you are being an ass/full of yourself"...A teen is not a 5 year old. I am not going to mince my every word and be terrified of shattering my kid's precious ego. Sometimes teens are asses and most of the time they are full of themselves...Thank you for calling me immature though because I wouldn't tiptoe around my kids crappy behavior.


You're missing the point. What does saying "you're a brat/ass/full of yourself" accomplish exactly? It has nothing to do with being gentle or AP. It is just a ridiculous and pointless thing for an adult to say to a teenager. Consider the root causes of her behavior and address those instead of namecalling. She is behaving that way for a reason. Address that and the rest will follow.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I think of myself as pretty far gentle on the spectrum here, and I've told my 9-year-old that everything isn't about her, which is really the same sentiment. It's an important part of maturity to learn that everything isn't about you, and kids need to hear it from somewhere. I don't think "Get over yourself" is such a harsh thing to say, particularly depending on tone. And this girl needs to hear it in some way. She doesn't get to decide whether other people bring cameras to the pool. She should get to decide how she's dressed, within reasonable limits.


No. She doesn't need to hear "get over yourself." She needs to hear "You know, there are so many wonderful qualities you have. You are ___, ____, and ____. You don't have to be popular, dress like a skank, or date the quarterback to have worth as a person. We love you as you are."

These posts about telling a teenager to get over herself/stop being so full of herself are so silly and harsh, considering this kid's upbringing. Have some compassion. Her behavior is a result of feeling and understanding that her worth as a person is tied to a whole bunch of superficial crap. Help her change her feelings about herself and she'll probably seem a lot less full of herself. She sounds like a kid who is really hurting. Developmentally it isn't at all atypical for her to think people are interested or concerned with something that is important to her. Yeah, it is a bummer and I feel bad for this poor grandpa if he wasn't being a creep, but what has to go on in someone's mind for them to think that? Do you really think telling someone to get over themself is going to change the idea that she thinks this guy was trying to perp on her?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would think generally in families with teenagers, you'd hear some conversations like yours, and some with "get over yourself." Teenagers are old enough to handle it. It would be way too harsh for a 4-year-old though. Older kids and teens don't always respond to "You have so many great qualities . . ." Though they need to hear that too. But, honestly, they will think they're the center of the universe until they're told in no uncertain terms that they aren't. I want to be gentle and also be real and authentic. I am not going to use inauthentic language every day in every interaction with my kids, and "you have so many great qualities" isn't always going to be the most real and authentic thing to say. We'll talk like real people talk to each other too.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Ok APtoddlermama...I actually DO DO DO agree with you about this SPECIFIC teen..she doesn't need to hear that..

HOWEVER, a healthy/well adjusted/average teen with minimal problems who is full of themself NEEDS to hear that they aren't the center of the universe specifically so they can get that stupid idea out of their head...

If my teenage kid is being an ass (and is otherwise mentally healthy/ well adjusted whatever), I'm gonna call them on it...Teen years are an age when they NEED to start being called out on their crap behavior. It accomplishes a lot to me...like letting them know that hey, "you are in fact NOT the center of the universe so get over yourself thanks." More teens should hear that IMO.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I would think generally in families with teenagers, you'd hear some conversations like yours, and some with "get over yourself." Teenagers are old enough to handle it. It would be way too harsh for a 4-year-old though. Older kids and teens don't always respond to "You have so many great qualities . . ." Though they need to hear that too. But, honestly, they will think they're the center of the universe until they're told in no uncertain terms that they aren't. I want to be gentle and also be real and authentic. I am not going to use inauthentic language every day in every interaction with my kids, and "you have so many great qualities" isn't always going to be the most real and authentic thing to say. We'll talk like real people talk to each other too.


Mamazee--that is fine and dandy with your kids who I am assuming have grown up with a self esteem. Also assuming you haven't suggested that they need to have a boyfriend, be popular, and dress skanky to have worth. And sure, there is a time and place to say get over yourself to a teenager, of course. Probably lots of times. I just don't see this as being even CLOSE to one of those times. I think it would be totally inappropriate and completely miss the mark of what is actually going on for this girl.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Ok APtoddlermama...I actually DO DO DO agree with you about this SPECIFIC teen..she doesn't need to hear that..
> 
> ...


Ahhhh so glad we agree ldavis .


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Ahhhh so glad we agree ldavis .


I knew we'd get there eventually...I really do agree with you about this particular girl, she doesn't need to hear that...she needs a mother who is a mother and not buddy and she needs serious help rebuilding her self esteem...I do feel really bad for her.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think those specific words would be too harsh for this girl, but a gentler version of the same thing could help her. The whole swimming pool doesn't rotate around her. Maybe, "Other people are having fun at the pool too, and their fun is independent of what you are doing or wearing." But yes, this particular teen needs a lot of other help, too. Teens in general though don't need such soft language.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I think those specific words would be too harsh for this girl, but a gentler version of the same thing could help her. The whole swimming pool doesn't rotate around her. Maybe, "Other people are having fun at the pool too, and their fun is independent of what you are doing or wearing." But yes, this particular teen needs a lot of other help, too. Teens in general though don't need such soft language.


You know, I agree with you sort of, but having worked at a pool, I know there are frequently people there (mostly adult males) whose fun at the pool is totally DEpendent on what teen girls (and puke...little kids) are wearing. There were more than a handful of men arrested at the pool I worked at for various nasty behavior (masturbating behind the fence watching the kids, flashing people, bringing video tape in and taping close ups of boobs/butts, offering kids candy, trying to get them to leave with them, etc.). So, while this particular man was probably not interested in this girl, chances are that there was at least someone there who was enjoying every minute and would have loved to save the memory on his cell phone.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I can't help seeing this from the grandpa's side is all. They took his phone to check to see if there were any photos of the girls on his camera, and found none, and none in the background. But let's say he didn't notice and she was in the background once or twice, and due to the ill-fitting nature of her bathing suit, there was some breast showing. Is grandpa now on the sex registry list? Is he no longer to be around his grandkids? His life could have been ruined, and at 14 kids have to take a bit of responsibility for their actions.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> You know, I agree with you sort of, but having worked at a pool, I know there are frequently people there (mostly adult males) whose fun at the pool is totally DEpendent on what teen girls (and puke...little kids) are wearing. There were more than a handful of men arrested at the pool I worked at for various nasty behavior (masturbating behind the fence watching the kids, flashing people, bringing video tape in and taping close ups of boobs/butts, offering kids candy, trying to get them to leave with them, etc.). So, while this particular man was probably not interested in this girl, chances are that there was at least someone there who was enjoying every minute and would have loved to save the memory on his cell phone.


man maybe it was just because I was in a smaller town or something but my town pool NEVER had this problem. That is just crazy and I can see how that would change your perspective a bit...


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

This was a definitely busy pool in an average sized city. Probably over 150 people there each day. I don't think any of it even made the news.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Oh, I didnt read all of the replies because I typically have differing views with people regarding teenagers attire. Pretty much everyone in my family struggles with weight issues. Not obesity, or extremely overweight, but usually once most of us have hit around 20, we cant pull off bikinis unless we work really really hard. So, Im of the school of thought, that let 'em wear it while they still can! I wasnt allowed to wear short shorts or bikinis or sexy clothes at all until I'd moved out of my mom's house, and I think it was all of about one year that I still looked super hot in those clothes.

Also, I feel like you can never win with skimpy clothing. If you wear skimpy clothes and you are a teenager you are "too young" and you "look like you should be working the corner" and if you wear those clothes when you are over 25 you are "trying to dress like a high school kid." So, when _is_ it okay?

I think your niece should cover up at family events. She can wear the string bikini at her friends pool, but not at a family event. Regardless of where she goes and what bathing suit she is wearing, she will attract attention because she is a teenager in a swimsuit. However, her parents should be teaching her to dress for the occasion, and a string bikini is inappropriate for a family function, IMO. Both my sister and my sister in law work skimpy dresses and 3-4 inch heels to my outdoor wedding and I thought they looked ridiculous. You dont wear a slinky, glitterly, tiny dress to a wedding in the countryside no matter how old you are. Our parents should have told them that, since they were both high school students.

On the camera: no one has any right to complain that grandpa was taking pictures at a family event. Period. If you dont want a picture of yourself in a string bikini to be circulated, dont wear one.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I will say, while I think my own sister is insecure, in her daughter's case, her daughter is not insecure at all, as far as I can see (other than an assumption that all teens would be insecure). She seems very happy with herself and likes to flaunt. She is not a mean girl though. She does say stuff like that she thinks she NEEDS to date now or she will never have a husband and they have to dress this way or they will be humilated and such. But she is head cheerleader of her squad at her school. She does modeling on the side sometimes professionally. She seems to be pretty popular and is always on the go. I know....I know you cannot neccesarily tell if someone feels bad on the inside based on how she is on the outside. My sister may do this and encourage it because she was insecure and we grew up in such an abusive home. But my nieces have never been abused (not that I have seen at all) and actually have been quite spoiled. My sister has failed to be a good role model or to have good priorities in the right place. In my sister's case, I think she is the one with low self esteem who feels her girls must be this way in order to be happy. So she is raising her children to be this way. Niece is not this horrible all over there brat. I do not spend much time with her. But in the time I have spent with her, there has been an occassion where she says these things. She is not snotty or catty about it. It is, however, very cruel that my daughter is not included in anything niece does. But in reality, that was my sister's idea and my niece has only really been on board with it in the last year or so. Now at this point, my dd and niece really are so different that my daughter would probably not want to hang with her friends. Not when these things are the kinds of things niece seems to be spending her time doing. I do think though, it would be reasonable for niece to do something on occassion with my daughter. Not that my daughter is a charity case, but I think family should try to spend some time together. But niece has never been taught good priorities so spending an afternoon with my DD has not ever been in her agenda.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> It is a teenage thing. Developmentally kids that age tend to think people are way more aware of/interested in their zit, clothes, hair, whatever than they are.


I think this behavior is something created by conditioning and is not developmental in nature. I never learned about this stage of development in any of my psych classes, and I know very few teenagers who are hypersensitive about how they look. Maybe my kids' friends and my friends' kids are just confident people.









Originally Posted by Smithie



> Encountering a hooker (or somebody dressed like a hooker) doesn't mean you should act like a john. The rules of social engagement don't change based on what other people are wearing. When in doubt, treat a stranger the want you'd want your mother/father/son/daughter to be treated, and you'll never go wrong.


Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

OP-- It seems like maybe your feelings are a little hurt by your sister and niece's treatment of your daughter. I know I would be hurt for sure. And honestly, I probably wouldn't subject my own kids to that sort of influence/treatment on a regular basis. Respectfully though, I just don't think it is possible that your niece is so secure given the crap your sister seems to be jamming down her throat. I would really re-think that. Obviously I don't know her and you're her aunt, but being the head cheerleader doesn't exempt you from feeling bad on the inside (as you said) and it certainly doesn't exempt you from thinking that your worth and value come from your appearance and popularity which is a slippery dangerous slope. It really does sound like she could use a positive adult role model in her life offering some guidance on this if your sister isn't able to do so. Not that it is your job. I'd be really on the fence between wanting to help my niece and wanting to separate from them as much as possible given the cirumstances.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Funny you should say that because I initially posted to check your psych 101 textbook but decided that was my snarky, mean, crabby pregnant mind telling me to do that and deleted it. But in all seriousness-- yes, it is developmental and it is in your psych 101 textbook. Not necessarily being hypersensitive about how you look, but thinking that others are much more interested and concerned with YOU in general. It can be anything from "everyone noticed I tripped in the hallway even though there were 100000 other people in the hallway all completely unaware" to "everyone is noticing that my hair is a 16th of an inch shorter on the left side." It is just the general idea that others care or are judging a lot more than they are.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I think this behavior is something created by conditioning and is not developmental in nature. I never learned about this stage of development in any of my psych classes, and I know very few teenagers who are hypersensitive about how they look. Maybe my kids' friends and my friends' kids are just confident people.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Well... My daughter's bikini is the crochet knit one in the second row.

http://www.aeropostale.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=11290906&cp=3534618.3534619.3534623.3541049

Skimpy? Yep. And I see nothing wrong with it. On her. Sorry.


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## prone_to_wander (Jun 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I would think generally in families with teenagers, you'd hear some conversations like yours, and some with "get over yourself." Teenagers are old enough to handle it. It would be way too harsh for a 4-year-old though. Older kids and teens don't always respond to "You have so many great qualities . . ." Though they need to hear that too. But, honestly, they will think they're the center of the universe until they're told in no uncertain terms that they aren't. I want to be gentle and also be real and authentic. I am not going to use inauthentic language every day in every interaction with my kids, and "you have so many great qualities" isn't always going to be the most real and authentic thing to say. We'll talk like real people talk to each other too.


This. You don't need to be wretched about it. But I sometimes wonder teens who aren't told that the world doesn't revolve around them, I think they turn into my sister where she is still in her mid-twenties acting like a snotty teen.

And imagine the consequences of the next person she imagines to be taking photos. What about their lives!?!

I believe that she should feel free to dress as she chooses and that she shouldn't get harassed by anyone. The double standard for what skin men can show vs the skin women can show is ridiculous.

However, she is on a public place. There may be a chance she could have her photo taken. If she doesn't want her photo to be taken while she is wearing her bathing suit, she should wear something less revealing.

To think that someone is taking her photo and using it for nefarious reasons is like accusing someone of a thought crime. And because of potential life-destroying accusations where most men in north America are thought to be sexual predators, I'd impress upon the seriousness of her actions of calling the police on poor grandpa.

As well, more and more laws are being passed in the world that prevents people from taking photos in public places. I'd like to suggest actions like your niece's are adding fuel to our liberties being taken away for thought crime.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I also agree with you and the poster above me.
> 
> Sure, your niece has the right to wear a bandaid as a swimsuit. She also will have the right to pick her nose in traffic. Either way, people will look and talk about her. She'd better get used to it.


I agree. I feel bad for the poor grandpa. I hate it when young teens act all dramatic and victimized. I have a friend who did this often when we were that age, it's been 30 years and she still loves to create drama.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Well... My daughter's bikini is the crochet knit one in the second row.
> 
> ...


That's cute. As long as it fits her nicely and she isn't tugging it constantly to keep properly covered, then fine.

I was not allowed 2-pieces (bikinis) after I hit puberty until I moved out of my parents' home. They were great while pregnant, as I didn't have to worry about fitting over my belly. Now, I prefer rash-guards and skirt-style bottoms. No stretch marks (3 kids and still), not overweight, but just for modesty. I don't like tugging and all that. I'd rather have fun with my kids than worry about whether I'm showing something that no one but me and my husband need to see.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread, but have noticed several comments along the lines of "teenagers are old enough" and "she's not five years old" when it comes to telling her to get over herself. Quite aside from OP's niece's bizarre environment, it's not as simple as "get over yourself". I was hideously self-conscious as a teen, and I knew more kids (seemed worse for the girls, but the boys had it, too) who suffered from the same thing. Sometimes, it manifested as the "the guys are all watching me" thing. Sometimes, it was more of a massive paranoia about panty lines, an unzipped fly, a zit on one's nose, spinach between the teeth, etc. etc. (these things were social catastrophes!). Some of the kids were more prone to one kind over the other (I, personally, was much, much more prone to the latter)...but it was still an "everyone is looking at me" thing. And, being told to get over it, or that I was being an ass, wasn't helpful. I could take that kind of thing more easily at 5 than at 14, because at 5, I wasn't as prickly, touchy, over-sensitive, and paralytically self-conscious.

I think extreme self-consciousness is really, really common for teens, no matter how it manifests.

And, all that said, I hope OP's niece finds some better guidance from somewhere. She sounds like she's in a bad place, with really skewed priorities...and calling the cops on some guy at the pool (who would have been legally taking the pictures, even if they had been of OP's niece), because one thinks he's a perv, is overkill.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

I actually feel sort of sorry for the child (OP's niece). 14 is a hard age. You feel self-conscious about everything. You feel as if all eyes are on you. But, I know plenty of times that I never noticed something (like a zit) on someone until they pointed it out. And to have a mother who insists that in order to be "accepted", you have to wear skimpy clothing to attract boys and get a boyfriend. I never had a boyfriend, nor been on a date, until I was a senior in high school. I married (someone else) many years later. However, it really depends on how you are raised. Had the Air Force not permitted dependents to go to Turkey when my dad was stationed there (1991-1993), I would have had to move in with my mother. Her attitude was very similar to the OP's sister. I would not have been surprised if I'd have had a "boyfriend" at 14 and been pregnant soon after. Honestly, I didn't really care about boys at that age. Instead, during that time, I was busy with track and all that stuff. I'm the weirdo that insisted on wearing long pants-leggings or tights- under my track uniform because it was "too skimpy".


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Funny you should say that because I initially posted to check your psych 101 textbook but decided that was my snarky, mean, crabby pregnant mind telling me to do that and deleted it. But in all seriousness-- yes, it is developmental and it is in your psych 101 textbook. Not necessarily being hypersensitive about how you look, but thinking that others are much more interested and concerned with YOU in general. It can be anything from "everyone noticed I tripped in the hallway even though there were 100000 other people in the hallway all completely unaware" to "everyone is noticing that my hair is a 16th of an inch shorter on the left side." It is just the general idea that others care or are judging a lot more than they are.


Yes, it is snarky to assume that everyone has taken a psych course.

I'm being forced to take developmental psych in the Fall, and maybe we will cover it there, but I'm certain we didn't cover it in Psych 101. And I still think this is something created by society and is not truly developmental. Prior to this last century, "teenagers" were having babies and were learning trades and working to feed their families. They didn't have time for egocentric behavior. I think that any egocentrism, acting out, rebellion....all those things occur because teenagers are infantilized by society and nature didn't intend that.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos. At at 14 surely she is aware of sexual desires,and how she dresses can affect the responses of others. If she is not aware then someone should educate her so she can make the choice to contine or not.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

> Encountering a hooker (or somebody dressed like a hooker) doesn't mean you should act like a john. The rules of social engagement don't change based on what other people are wearing. When in doubt, treat a stranger the want you'd want your mother/father/son/daughter to be treated, and you'll never go wrong.


Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.

If you calibrate your treatment of people based on what they're wearing, or allow your children to do so, then yes, you need a lecture about how to treat strangers on the street (or child's new friend who wears the short skirts, or the mom at church whose top seems a little low to you, or whoever).

It's not about other people and what you think they "are looking for." It's about you, your personal standards of behavior, and the way you are training up your children.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mattemma04*
> 
> Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos.


I think you didn't read the OP very well.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.
> 
> ...


Where did I say that *I* treat people based on how they're dressed? I'm talking about society in general, and you are attacking my character? You don't know me OR my children, so you know where you can shove your judgment.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.
> 
> ...


Doesn't mean that the person wearing the skimpy clothes shouldn't expect to get the attention either unwanted or wanted(and even wanted I don't believe they really want it in most cases).And since its society that makes it that way maybe the person wearing/dressing in such a way should take a step back and say how would I want people to treat me. Will I get respect wearing this or will I be treated in such a way that will effect me. If they don't care then they won't be offended and will rock the outfit proudly. Sadly though that is rarely the case.

So yeah its not really about the treatment of other but being responsible for our own actions and setting up how people will look at us and treat us. After a certain extent you can't keep blaming the other person for hurting you when you don't do anything to change it.

I rather be proactive in situations like this then wait till something happens. Because while this time grandpa wasn't taking pictures. Some other person could be and could manipulate her into thinking this is a great thing and things could be way worse.


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## fyrwmn (Jan 5, 2009)

how sad that this 14 yr old is being brought up to think that her worth is wrapped up in what she wears, how popular she is, and given the impression that she NEEDS a man to complete her. my sister is raising her 4yr old like that. already at 4 she's wearing little short shorts with her bum cheeks hanging out. i guess it's no wonder since the rest of us have spoken to my sister for years about her attire. she's one to show up at my grandmother's house for thanksgiving with her little bity bug bites hanging out of her shirt, skin tight jeans, etc. she lives with my parents and they raise my neice while she's out living it up since she got divorced at 23. the marriage lasted a whole 1.5 yrs, of which most of it she lived with my parents, and her dd was her attempt at saving the marriage.

my dd is being raised much more conservatively. she comments about how her cousin doesn't dress modestly (a word we use often) but we are also trying to make her realize that she shouldn't be judgemental of her cousin. meanwhile, my sister (and mother for that matter) constantly pick at me about how we raise dd. according to them, we're too strict, they also comment constantl that dd is too "skinny". she's very tall and this but eats plenty of healthy food. my neice on the other hand is very chubby (which she's still a toddler so i would expect anyways) but eats nothing but crap food and sucks down full sugar juice like it's air. they think we're cruel because we don't give the kids straight juice ever, and even watered down juice is a rarity. i'd rather they're eating whole fruits, which they love anyways.

in our case, we just avoid my sister and neice as much as possible. dd doesn't like neice because of how she acts, and dh and i really dislike her spoiled attitude and don't want her around our kids. i feel bad for her though, as she is a product of how she's being raised. unless things change, i fully expect her to be pregnant by 16 and acting out trying to fill the gaping voids in her life...that's just sad.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Yes, it is snarky to assume that everyone has taken a psych course.
> 
> I'm being forced to take developmental psych in the Fall, and maybe we will cover it there, but I'm certain we didn't cover it in Psych 101. And I still think this is something created by society and is not truly developmental. Prior to this last century, "teenagers" were having babies and were learning trades and working to feed their families. They didn't have time for egocentric behavior. I think that any egocentrism, acting out, rebellion....all those things occur because teenagers are infantilized by society and nature didn't intend that.


Which is why I deleted it. You'll most certainly encounter the concept in your developmental psych class and then maybe you can decide if a researched and proven theory is more or less meaningful than your own theory that teenagers didn't have time to be egocentric back when they were having babies at 14.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I can't help seeing this from the grandpa's side is all. They took his phone to check to see if there were any photos of the girls on his camera, and found none, and none in the background. But let's say he didn't notice and she was in the background once or twice, and due to the ill-fitting nature of her bathing suit, there was some breast showing. Is grandpa now on the sex registry list? Is he no longer to be around his grandkids? His life could have been ruined, and at 14 kids have to take a bit of responsibility for their actions.


You make a great point!

I also wanted to repond to the comments, by other posters about "pervs" and people "perping" on other people.

The only "perv" I see in this story is the poor girl's mother! It's perverted to raise a young girl to think that her whole worth is based on looks, popularity, and what men think of her! I won't call the teen girl a "perv" yet because she's still a child and it's not her fault -- but it sounds like she's on the way to perping the same perversions on her own daughter in a few more years (or less) if she doesn't wake up and smell the wonderful coffee smell of the real world that's so full of possibilites for people of all shapes and sizes!

I agree with those who say that fathers and grandpas have a right to go out and have fun with their loved ones, take pictures, the whole bit! They have a right not to have to worry about all kinds of crazy false accusations flying their way.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mattemma04*
> 
> Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos. *At at 14 surely she is aware of sexual desires,and how she dresses can affect the responses of others*. If she is not aware then someone should educate her so she can make the choice to contine or not.


IME, this is both true and not true. I can remember playing with fire in that area more than once, without really understanding that I was playing with fire. I got that I looked "hot" in such-and-such outfit, and that guys were checking me out and stuff like that. I didn't get, until reflecting back on it years later, that I was maybe giving some of those guys the impression that I was more available than I was, or that they might have been assuming I was sexually active, etc. Looking back, I know several guys believed I was far more worldly and aware of what was going on than I actually was. And, I actually toned it down some after I did become sexually active. When I was still a virgin, a case could be made that I dressed as if I "worked the street". I didn't, really, but I was definitely going for a sexually amped up look. It was all part of how I was processing my own sexuality and it actually had piss all to do with the guys (and it did take me a few years to realize that they didn't see it that way!).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.

I also hope that he doesn't start feeling like he has any less right to a camera phone than all the fourteen year old girls who have them -- many of whom probably don't hestitate to "gawk" and make comments about odd (to them) looking people who catch their attention. By the way, according to what the OP said about the witness accounts, it doesn't sound like he was doing any gawking at the girl anyway. I'm just saying that it wouldn't make him a criminal if he did gawk at someone who looked strange to him. There are certainly enough teens who gawk and make fun of people who don't fit their ideas of normal. Does this mean they should have their cellphones and computers regularly searched by the police?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mattemma04*
> 
> Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages.


----------



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

The mother is ok with teen boys checking out her daughter and such, and niece even says how she is trying to attract a boyfriend. Niece loves to "flaunt it." They just figure older men don't have the right to exist and her daughter should only be looked at by the young hot boys. I just think if you are so scared of ending up in someones picture in whatever you are wearing, then you probably should not be in public in that picture. There is not a ton of difference between being in the picture and just being in public. They still see you. But my sister did make it clear she is fine with a boy gawking and looking and all that if the boy is a cute teenage boy, but not if the boy is a grown man with grandchildren. Niece just assumed because she is so hot, if he was there, he must have been looking at her, because of course, everyone is going to look at hot hot niece (that is the attitude she gives). There was no merit for her accusation toward this man and this was a lot of dramatics aimed at this man who was just trying to be out with his grandkids. I am disgusted by it. And I think if a person is dressed in such a way that they are this paranoid that someone might look at them or take pictures, and that the pictures would be inappropriate, then chances are, the scene is inappropriate. If it is not ok to be in a picture dressed that way, then it is not ok to be in public dressed that way. Either way, people can see her. It is a public pool where people of all ages have the right to be. Ironically, she does have a pool in her own neighborhood, but there is rarely anyone there. If she wanted privacy instead of being out flaunting it, then she would have done it at her own pool in her neighborhood. But she wanted to be out with her friend, flirting with the guys and such.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

If the girls were that concerned about someone taking their pictures I would have called the police also. With the use of cell phone cameras people can access your childrens pictures for any purpose. And that is a scary thought no matter what they are wearing.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.

Its a very intresting.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.
> 
> I also hope that he doesn't start feeling like he has any less right to a camera phone than all the fourteen year old girls who have them -- many of whom probably don't hestitate to "gawk" and make comments about odd (to them) looking people who catch their attention. By the way, according to what the OP said about the witness accounts, it doesn't sound like he was doing any gawking at the girl anyway. I'm just saying that it wouldn't make him a criminal if he did gawk at someone who looked strange to him. There are certainly enough teens who gawk and make fun of people who don't fit their ideas of normal. Does this mean they should have their cellphones and computers regularly searched by the police?


I think that she was saying "shame for" and not "shame on" the Grandpa. As in, it's a shame he was treated that way, but better safe than sorry. Not shame on that grandpa for taking pictures.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.


I think she was saying it was a shame FOR the man. Not shame ON the man.

Pervs are everywhere... not just the grandfather with a camera. She wasn't saying the man was a perv or that everyone with a phone camera is a perv... just that they can show up anywhere at any time, and you may never know.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I think that she was saying "shame for" and not "shame on" the Grandpa. As in, it's a shame he was treated that way, but better safe than sorry. Not shame on that grandpa for taking pictures.


But, actually, that's just as bad in my opinion. How is harassing someone who wasn't breaking any laws being "better safe than sorry?" Safe from what? Safe from getting inadvertently included in the background of some photo he was taking of his grandkids?

Beenmum, you would seriously call the police because someone told you that they thought someone had snapped a picture of them with their cell phone? I can't even understand tripping over something like that as it obviously wouldn't effect me or my child. It's not like that picture has some voodoo connection with the actual me and I'll actually feel something if they're sticking pins into it, or whatever.

Even if they snapped a picture of my face in order to attach it to a photo of a naked lady's body, I wouldn't trip if I happened to see a photo of a supposedly naked me on the Internet. I'd report the site to the authorities, as I'd most certainly do if someone did that with a photo of my child. Trained people are totally capable of examining such a thing and proving that it isn't really me or my child, if it comes down to that.

It makes more sense to report an actual crime that to go around having everyone's camera phone searched just because I think there's a risk that the image of my child or me might have been preserved for some weird purpose.

Of course, I don't blame the girl for feeling like all eyes are on her. I remember what a thrill that used to give me, thinking I was in "danger." However, my parents would have been humiliated if I'd created such a scene and caused such trauma for an innocent person. They most certainly wouldn't have been backing me up and making me feel like I was justified in causing inconvenience for other people "just in case." I do feel sad for this teen because it sounds like her mom, who I see as the actual "perp" in this situation, is actually encouraging her to feel like there's a "perp" around every corner.

Sadly, she doesn't seem to be encouraging her to have a healthy caution regarding the cute boys who are just as likely to be rapists as the old grandpas, and a heck of a lot more likely to find a way to get her to go someplace with them alone.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I actually took the comment in a sarcastic way. like sheesh who does he think he is taking pictures of his own family in a public place. eye roll type thing.

I really do feel for this girl. 14 is a hard time in girls life. I was already a D cup at that age and had all the guys in my class comment about my breasts. I had the older guys hit on me because I looked at least 18. I never dressed skimpy nor did I have my goods hanging out. I wore jeans and tshrits, or tanks and shorts. So I while I wasn't putting myself out there I was getting the unwanted comments. I couldn't imagine if if I was what more of an impression I would have been putting out there. But on top of this mom encouraging her daughter to be this way. Has she ever been molested or sexually abused in any other way. Even if it was consentual. I mean it seems there is such an emphasis on sexuality and the need to dress a certain way and to get guys and so on.

My SIL was that way. Very sexual. She would take the virgin dorky guy in school and try to have sex with him then not follow through with it then turn around and say oh he tried attacking her. She did it to my brother once and we were all around. So I know it didn't happen of what she accused my brother of doing.

Wrongfully accusing people of things like that and like getting the cops to look through that guys phone is just wrong.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oops! I owe Mattemma04 an apology because I did misread that first part of her post. I see now that she was never in favor of the man's camera-phone getting searched.

However, it looks like there are actually some here who do see this sort of things as being "better safe than sorry."

I don't blame the teen, although for me, the fun was in imagining the whole "danger" scenario with my friends, so I had no thoughts of actually making it known to some complete stranger that he was the "suspect" in our little drama. So it's kind of hard to imagine this girl wanting to take it to the next stage like that.

I was more the type to have a lot to say and then be horrified if someone actually passed along what I was saying to the other person. I still am sort of like that, although of course now I'm much more aware of the reality that things never usually stop with the person you're talking to. Plus I've naturally grown enough integrity (I hope) to know I should follow the basic rule of not saying stuff about others that I wouldn't say to their faces, and of treating others the way I'd like to be treated.

One of my girls had a situation a while back where she felt pretty sure that a neighbor who came to our house stole some money out of her purse. It's possible that the child did this, but dd also wasn't 100% sure about whether she hadn't already spent the money. And this wasn't the only child who'd been in our house. So, I suggested that she a) keep her money in a less accessible place and b) not say anything about this to the girl or to the other kids.

I asked her to think about how she'd feel if someone had accused her of something like this. How could she prove her innocence in such a situation?

I have the same response to comments that a particular guy looks "creepy." I tell her that it's definitely a good idea to turn her bike around and head back home if there's someone out there that she doesn't feel comfortable riding past for any reason. It's always good to follow her instincts about staying away from certain people and coming to me or her dad with any concerns.

But it it would seriously not be cool to be calling the police to have them check out everyone who she thinks might be a bad person. Because, when you accuse someone of being a "perv," how can the accused person prove his innocence? "Lack of evidence" doesn't always satisfy onlookers that the guy who was just searched by the police is really a nice guy.

I mean, how would this girl feel if some mean-spirited kid felt like spreading a rumor that she had some incurable STD? How could she prove that she didn't? It might have some effect on her ability to get a boyfriend; maybe she'd only get called by boys who didn't care about whatever they might get exposed to. I really don't think it's totally impossible for this teen to learn some empathy, and to learn that old granpas are people, too.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.
> 
> Its a very intresting.


Thanks for giving it a name, although whether *all* teens do this is debatable. The articles I've read thus far use words like "often" or "tendency."

Quote:


> Specifically, only grade 6 students who had Level 3 social perspective-taking ability showed higher personal fable ideation than did other students. Although a number of grade-related factors might be implicated, the authors favored the possibility that the 6th graders' recent transition from elementary to middle school, combined with their Level 3 social perspective-taking ability, was responsible for the feelings of uniqueness and isolation that are associated with the personal fable. Other researchers have similarly speculated that a disruption in one's social context might increase egocentrism among adolescents and even young adults


Quote:


> Adolescents' search for a sense of personal identity has also been offered as an explanation for their seemingly egocentric thought processes, particularly for their construction of an imaginary audience (e.g., O'Connor, 1995; O'Connor & Nikolic, 1990; Protinsky & Wilkerson, 1986). This third theoretical perspective on the imaginary audience and personal fable suggests that adolescents become self-conscious and concerned with what others think of them when they themselves begin to question who they are, how they fit in, and what they will do with their lives.


The preceding words suggest that environment plays into this, which is what I was saying. Adolescents in present day (in developed countries) have the luxury of questioning who they are and what they will do with their lives. Social disruption is a way of life for many children. Different teachers every year, often different faces in the classroom, too. Kids who move frequently (also a modern phenomenon) feel it even more intensely.

Quote:


> Do adolescents routinely feel that others are always watching and evaluating them, and that they are wholly different from other people? At present, the answer that seems to emerge from textbooks that deal with adolescence is "yes," although the evidence for that answer is questionable, and extant measures of the constructs leave little hope that the evidence will become any clearer.


 

*Revisiting The Imaginary Audience And Personal Fable Constructs Of Adolescent Egocentrism: A Conceptual Review*


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> *Funny you should say that because I initially posted to check your psych 101 textbook but decided that was my snarky, mean, crabby pregnant mind telling me to do that and deleted it. But in all seriousness-- yes, it is developmental and it is in your psych 101 textbook.* Not necessarily being hypersensitive about how you look, but thinking that others are much more interested and concerned with YOU in general. It can be anything from "everyone noticed I tripped in the hallway even though there were 100000 other people in the hallway all completely unaware" to "everyone is noticing that my hair is a 16th of an inch shorter on the left side." It is just the general idea that others care or are judging a lot more than they are.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> *Which is why I deleted it. * You'll most certainly encounter the concept in your developmental psych class and then maybe you can decide if a researched and proven theory is more or less meaningful than your own theory that teenagers didn't have time to be egocentric back when they were having babies at 14.


But... you still made a point of adding that it is in a Psych 101 text. So... you really did not delete it. The snark was quite evident. IMO.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Well, I only replied AFTER she said she never learned that in her psych class as if that meant that what myself and several other posters have stated about that being typical teenage development was bs.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Well, I only replied AFTER she said she never learned that in her psych class as if that meant that what myself and several other posters have stated about that being typical teenage development was bs.


You replied before others chimed in about it, IIRC (I'm too tired to go back through the thread). And "typical teenage development" and a "stereotype" can look quite similar. I'm simply questioning that it's typical teenage development. I think much more studying would need to happen across many cultures before this can be called a true developmental stage. For some reason I just can't picture this anywhere else besides in a nation with privilege, and my own experience suggests that this is something more prevalent in kids who go to school.

My discussion of this phenomenon wasn't about you at all, so no need to take it personally.

eta: My psych textbook was not something I'd consider hanging on to, so I no longer have it. It was probably sold back to the bookstore the night of my last class.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> It was all part of how I was processing my own sexuality and it actually had piss all to do with the guys










I felt similarly when I was a teen.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I'm biased against this topic anyway because while I could care less what others wear DH and I are in agreement that DD won't be owning a 2 piece bathing suit until she can buy one with her own money. She just turned 2 and got a 2 piece from my step MIL...I was so pissed.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I haven't read the whole thread, but have noticed several comments along the lines of "teenagers are old enough" and "she's not five years old" when it comes to telling her to get over herself.


yeah, and I'm not seeing how any of that would fall under "gentle discipline." I have 2 teens, and sometimes I do need to tell them things, but I would never say "get over yourself." That just doesn't line up with how I've raised them because it is so very disrespectful. I don't think that GD needs to stop just because kids get boobs and hormones.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> If the girls were that concerned about someone taking their pictures I would have called the police also. With the use of cell phone cameras people can access your childrens pictures for any purpose. And that is a scary thought no matter what they are wearing.


yeah, and with my phone, I could take a picture of someone, email to myself, and then delete it from my phone.

This kid sounds like she has some problems, but teens being aware of what it going on around them is a good thing. I would definitely want my DDs to be noticing what others are doing at the pool, to be aware of their surroundings.

(for the record, both my teens girls wear one pieces when they are practicing or racing, but one wears a bikini when swimming just for fun. They are both kick-a$$ swimmers, which is a lot more important to be than whether their tummies show. )


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I think much more studying would need to happen across many cultures before this can be called a true developmental stage.


It already has been. But, whatever. I doubt this is helpful to OP so I'm bowing out.


----------



## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Love this quote....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Bah. I'm frumpy, and I got a husband.


OK, back to discussion....


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.
> 
> Its a very intresting.


I can honestly say that I don't recall ever acting to an invisible audience as a teen. Haven't really noticed it that much with my two teens either.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. *All* teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.
> 
> Its a very intresting.


I really don't think it's *all*. It's some. I remember of friend of mine was obsessed with what she wore and was convinced that other people got tired of seeing her in certain clothes, but at the time, I thought it was weird.

I see it with some of my kids' friends, but not all, and not all to the same degree. I see it a little with one of my DDs, but not at all with the other. (Granted, she's quirky, but she is a teen!)

And I suspect that Facebook has made it worse. If someone is already thinking that way, and then they can post every little thing on the internet for the world to see, it seems like it would just feed the problem.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> How should a person who works on a corner (or dresses like one) be treated? I don't want my daughter dressing in skimpy clothing, but I'm not liking the attitude that if she does, it's ok to treat her a certain way. I have a friend who dresses in clothes that I find too revealing for my taste, but she deserves every bit of respect as anyone else.
> 
> This isn't as much in response to the post about the swimming pool incident (poor guy!), but just looking at our attitudes in general that some people deserve maltreatment based on whatever we think justifies it.


Yes!! I also don't like skimpy clothes for myself or for my dd. I wouldn't take her out and buy her a bathing suit like the OP described. Even if she told me that her friends all do...oh well. But no, I do not agree with the idea that people get to treat you like you aren't a good person because you are wearing such-and-such. And that's why if a girl is wearing a certain outfit and is raped people think well, she shouldn't have been dressed like a slut. And I also feel bad for grandpa..how embarassing.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

That poor guy. Seriously. Basically called out as a pervert for absolutely no reason? Fourteen year old girls are fourteen year old girls, I get that. But if I were your sister I'd be having a serious talk with her about what image her daughter wants to put out to the world and that is something a person has to think long and hard about. If you're dressed provacatively people will be more prone to look. It's just the way it is. Does that make it okay for old men to look at young girls? Hell no. Does it make it the girl's fault if an old man is oogling her? Hell no. Do we all have to be aware that perverts do exist and the risk is out there that they will look/take pictures and factor it in to how our daughters are dressing? IMO, hell yes.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Clothes have little to do with it. She could be covered head to toe with not an inch of skin showing and still provide "temptation" to perverts.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Clothes have little to do with it. She could be covered head to toe with not an inch of skin showing and still provide "temptation" to perverts.


That is probably true. I guess I don't know the mind of a pervert. (I'm not implying you do, but perhaps you've read more on it.) I was just making an assumption.


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

While I feel sad for the niece, i think there is little the OP can do about it. This girl is being raised to believe that her looks and her clothing are the most important things in the world for her success in life. Girls who feel like that are constantly paranoid about their appearance. So while she may not feel comfortable in the swimsuit, she will wear it anyway because she feels she HAS to in order to get a BF/get married/be successful. This message is coming from her peers, her mom, the media, and our over sexualized society. So she is being told that putting herself on display is important, but she is uncomfortable being on display. Sad. The worst part? Most girls like that never feel like they look good enough. There is always something wrong with their bodies or their clothing. They are never 100% confident, although they pretend to be. This can make them toxic to their peers because they want their choices validated by seeing others copy them.

I, like most MDC moms, hope to raise my girls to see the value of themselves regardless of the packaging they are born into. It took me many years to embrace the notion that my worth is not tied to my appearance. For several years this looked like grungy, ill fitting clothing I used to say "F it. If I will never be good enough than I'm not going to pretend to try." I shaved off my hair, peirced my tounge, got a tattoo...all in the name of non conformity. For those of us not traditionally beautiful, the path is a little easier. But for those who are close to socitey's perfection I think it is even harder to resist trying to be "all that."

Even with my kids I see it. My little girl is "cute," "pretty," "beautiful," "charming" while my friend's little boy is "smart," "cleaver," "strong," or a "little man.". Raising little girls to resist being objectified is a serious challenge.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.


Teens have a right to feel safe; men have a right to enjoy a fun day at the pool with grandkids without getting accused of "perving" on someone.

I won't dispute that this girl was within her legal "rights" when she called the cops on that poor man.

I know there's no law on the books that says everyone "has" to take into account the feelings of others; that's just something I believe in encouraging in my own children -- and, no, that doesn't mean that they should ever tolerate feeling unsafe just to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

I stand by my previous statement that I think the girl's mom is the only "perv" in this case.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

ITA ^


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, lovingmommyhood!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.


I also wanted to respond directly to this part of your comment. According to the OP, the teen's mom felt that the man wasn't behaving in any way that her daughter would have objected to, had he been a cute boy.

Of course, the OP also explained that the other people at the pool backed up this grandpa and verified that he wasn't behaving at all inappropriately, and I have a feeling that, had a 40 or 50-plus man been behaving like a stereotypical turned-on teenaged boy (I know that many teenaged boys can be turned on without acting on it; I'm specifically talking about the stereotype of "young men on the make"), this would have stood out to everyone at the pool.

But, to get back to my point, whatever this girl thought this man was doing, apparently it did not constitute what even she would call true sexual harassment, because it would have been okay if the so called perpetrator had been young and cute! Surely we're not okay with being raped, harassed, or treated in any way disrespectfully, just so long as the criminal is a perfect ten!

Do we really have a right to dictate who can feel sexual arousal? -- and I'm not saying that it sounds like this man was aroused, it sounds like his attention was focused on his grandkids and he didn't even notice the girl 'til she forced her presence onto his radar by calling the police, just that it seems rather unfair to act like these feelings are "privileges" that are only afforded to the young and cute. Anyone else experiencing a normal reaction to sexual stimuli is "some weird guy."

I should clarify that I don't see it as a normal reaction, ever, to act aggressively or disrespectfully toward someone; I just do think it's normal that sometimes there are things that can turn us on, and maybe some of us are pretty adept at hiding it, but an aroused man in swimming trunks may stand out, even if he has no interest in actually pursuing the person whose near-naked body stimulated his state of arousal.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.


I completely agree with you (for once ) MusicianDad. It is truly unfortunate that this guy was pulled into this scenario if he wasn't doing anything inappropriate, and it sounds like he wasn't, but I think we also need to keep in mind that this sort of thing happens frequently enough that our daughters need to know that they can and should be heard if they're feeling creeped out.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I completely agree with you (for once ) MusicianDad. It is truly unfortunate that this guy was pulled into this scenario if he wasn't doing anything inappropriate, and it sounds like he wasn't, but I think we also need to keep in mind that this sort of thing happens frequently enough that our daughters need to know that they can and should be heard if they're feeling creeped out.


I believe I will teach my daughter if she is feeling creeped out by someone, anyone, she should call me immediately so I can remove her from the situation. I would not want my daughter calling the police (!) for something so frivolous. They were at a public pool, in a group, in broad daylight. Move across the pool and call someone to come get you. If the man was actually doing something...saying in appropriate things, making some sort of advance than that would be a different story. I would hope the girl apologized to that man for wrongly accusing him.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I believe I will teach my daughter if she is feeling creeped out by someone, anyone, she should call me immediately so I can remove her from the situation. I would not want my daughter calling the police (!) for something so frivolous. They were at a public pool, in a group, in broad daylight. Move across the pool and call someone to come get you. If the man was actually doing something...saying in appropriate things, making some sort of advance than that would be a different story. I would hope the girl apologized to that man for wrongly accusing him.


Really? Because that does imply that your daughter does not have the judgement to determine whether or not she is in danger. The fourteen year old in this situation appears to have made the wrong call, but my guess is the majority of fourteen year olds would make the right call. And honestly, none of us know for sure that this guy wasn't taking photos and maybe emailed them quick and then deleted or whatever. Chances are he was totally innocent but I think we're jumping to conclusions without actually knowing the kid or seeing the situation.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Really? Because that does imply that your daughter does not have the judgement to determine whether or not she is in danger. The fourteen year old in this situation appears to have made the wrong call, but my guess is the majority of fourteen year olds would make the right call. And honestly, none of us know for sure that this guy wasn't taking photos and maybe emailed them quick and then deleted or whatever. Chances are he was totally innocent but I think we're jumping to conclusions without actually knowing the kid or seeing the situation.


Well...my daughter is three so I can't say what her judgement will be like but I do recall myself as a teen and I made plenty of horrible judgement calls... I'm not saying I won't trust my daughter but I would hope she would use her head and not call the police over an unfounded suspicion of picture taking in a public pool and instead would call me or her dad to come and get her, removing her from the situation.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Really? Because that does imply that your daughter does not have the judgement to determine whether or not she is in danger. The fourteen year old in this situation appears to have made the wrong call, but my guess is the majority of fourteen year olds would make the right call. And honestly, none of us know for sure that this guy wasn't taking photos and maybe emailed them quick and then deleted or whatever. Chances are he was totally innocent but I think we're jumping to conclusions without actually knowing the kid or seeing the situation.


Even if he WAS taking pictures of her and emailing them, that is not against the law. She was in a public place, and anyone can take a picture in a public place. If this was not the case then the paparazzi would be out of business long ago.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> Even if he WAS taking pictures of her and emailing them, that is not against the law. She was in a public place, and anyone can take a picture in a public place. If this was not the case then the paparazzi would be out of business long ago.


Would you be okay with a man taking photos of your kids at the pool in their swimsuits? Sorry kids. That guy snapping your photo as you bend over or adjust your suit...well, you're in a public place so deal with it.

When I worked at a pool there were several times when the police were called because of weird men photoing/videotaping closeups of boobs and butts. The police were most certainly interested. I don't know the outcome but I am assuming if you're doing that it is a big red flag for other criminal behavior.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I have a 14 year old DD who spends a great deal of time in pools, some of it without me there. I would expect her to go straight to the lifeguard if she saw anyone behaving inappropriately.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Would you be okay with a man taking photos of your kids at the pool in their swimsuits? Sorry kids. That guy snapping your photo as you bend over or adjust your suit...well, you're in a public place so deal with it.
> 
> When I worked at a pool there were several times when the police were called because of weird men photoing/videotaping closeups of boobs and butts. The police were most certainly interested. I don't know the outcome but I am assuming if you're doing that it is a big red flag for other criminal behavior.


 Yes, I would be OK with it. The camera will not steal their souls.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> Yes, I would be OK with it. The camera will not steal their souls.


Well what if those photos end up on the internet?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Well what if those photos end up on the internet?


It wouldn't bother me - if I was ashamed of a bikini, I would not wear a bikini in public. Same for my girls. We don't wear or do things in public that we would have a problem with seeing on the internet.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I definitely trust my daughters to know whether or not they are comfortable in a particular situation. In fact, if I think something would be great fun for one of my daughters but she says she would rather not do it, or go to a particular place, for any reason, I respect her feelings; I don't push my children into any situations where they're not comfortable. I also don't make them spend time with people who they're not comfortable with.

This doesn't mean that I encourage them to call the police every time they feel uncomfortable.

Children definitely need to know how to dial 911 so that they can contact the police/medical authorities in the event that a crisis occurrs where an adult is not available.

But, where an adult is available -- and if I'm sending my child somewhere on her own with a cell phone (I don't actually do that yet, but my girls are younger), you can bet that this means that either dh or I is accessible by phone -- to me, it just seems natural to use a parent as a sounding-board on how to handle uncomfortable situations. This wasn't a life and death emergency (obviously, if someone's bleeding profusely, you need to alert others around you, namely a lifeguard, as well as calling 911, rather than calling Mom or Dad who wouldn't be able to get there fast enough).

Children should absolutely be heard! I just tend to see a parent as the first logical choice of someone to turn to.

Also, about cases where my child's butt-cheek might get inadvertently exposed at the pool, and someone might snap a photo and post it on the Internet -- if my child isn't recognizable, I don't care. If my child IS regognizable, I'll alert the authorities. There are laws against publishing recognizable photos of children without parental permission.

But honestly, if I don't know about it, I don't know about it and what's the big deal? How does it affect us? I agree with Choli that it's not my actual child in that photo; her soul has not been stolen.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> It wouldn't bother me - if I was ashamed of a bikini, I would not wear a bikini in public. Same for my girls. We don't wear or do things in public that we would have a problem with seeing on the internet.


Finding out that photos of you as a child have been used as pornography is emotionally and psychologically damaging. If someone takes those photos and your girls grow up and find out that those photos have been shared by pedophiles for their enjoyment, it will have an impact on their life.

But then I am of the mind set that there really needs to be more regulation regarding the photography of strangers, particularly children, if only so people have some control over their 'image'.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> It wouldn't bother me - if I was ashamed of a bikini, I would not wear a bikini in public. Same for my girls. We don't wear or do things in public that we would have a problem with seeing on the internet.


So if some creepy dudes are sitting at their computers getting "pleasure" out of seeing photos of your girls on the internet in their swimsuits...maybe closeups of their rear ends, you'd be cool with that? You too 2xy?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Finding out that photos of you as a child have been used as pornography is emotionally and psychologically damaging. If someone takes those photos and your girls grow up and find out that those photos have been shared by pedophiles for their enjoyment, it will have an impact on their life.


It would also have an impact on their lives if they were to see me being devoured by sharks, which is not likely to happen as we live in the Midwest (and it wouldn't even be that likely if we lived on the coast). The likelihood of one of my children's photos being used as porn AND her finding out about it seems about the same as that of me getting eaten by sharks AND my children seeing it...so I can't even imagine ever devoting any energy to worrying about it or, well, doing anything about it, really. There is just so much *real life stuff* to be dealing with.

Just as I wouldn't let a remote possibility of getting eaten by sharks prevent me from taking my family to enjoy the seaside should we ever get the opportunity, so I wouldn't let any fear of photos being used weirdly prevent families the world over from the joy of getting to take snapshots of their children, and grandchildren, enjoying the pool and other public places. We can't all afford to have our kids learn to swim in private places, ya know...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I see this as a "trading security for liberty" issue. Do people have a right to take photos of their grandkids at a pool without being harassed? I think so. Do people have the right to wear skimpy bathing suits and assume no one will take their photos in a public place? I don't know about that. Might someone use photos they take in bad ways? Sure but pedophiles are weird and could be just as turned on by any photo of a kid. I can't spend my life worrying about what a pedophile might be turned on by. I'd rather have my kids dress in a way where they aren't worried about whether their photo is taken.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I see this as a "trading security for liberty" issue. Do people have a right to take photos of their grandkids at a pool without being harassed? I think so. Do people have the right to wear skimpy bathing suits and assume no one will take their photos in a public place? I don't know about that. Might someone use photos they take in bad ways? Sure but pedophiles are weird and could be just as turned on by any photo of a kid. I can't spend my life worrying about what a pedophile might be turned on by. I'd rather have my kids dress in a way where they aren't worried about whether their photo is taken.


Ditto.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> So if some creepy dudes are sitting at their computers getting "pleasure" out of seeing photos of your girls on the internet in their swimsuits...maybe closeups of their rear ends, you'd be cool with that? You too 2xy?


Yes, I would, since we wouldn't know about it! And frankly, even if we did know about it, we also know that it does not affect us in any way. Just as if they are getting pleasure out of looking at my girls in real life it does not affect us in any way.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> So if some creepy dudes are sitting at their computers getting "pleasure" out of seeing photos of your girls on the internet in their swimsuits...maybe closeups of their rear ends, you'd be cool with that? You too 2xy?


How would I even know that it was happening?

If I don't want people to see my kids' rear-ends, maybe I should put them in less revealing clothing. I don't understand letting half your ass hang out and then complaining that people can see it.

Anyway, I hardly think that swimwear is pornographic. Some people think shoes are erotic. Should I hide my kids' feet?


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I think i'm just going to keep my kids locked in their rooms! I Sooo wish I could. Haha!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> How would I even know that it was happening?
> 
> ...


To each their own.... And I was just asking...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> To each their own.... And I was just asking...


And I simply answered. What's the problem?


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