# how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework?



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i've had this thought several times on reading recent threads and it's an issue i'd like to explore. i can EASILY see it getting heated so please remember to be respectful of other's views.

as we are on mdc, i think most of us feel "natural is better" and that birthing with less unnecessary interventions is better. obviously, a c-section is the ultimate intervention in birth and they are sometimes performed unnecessarily. how can the issues be untangled so that unnecessary c-sections can be discussed without casting such a wide net that anyone that has had a c-section is met with the underlying suspicion that their c-section was not necessary?

there is also an idea that women should "trust their bodies" and that their birth will go as nature intended. the consequences of this can be that when birth does not go well, these women's bodies are failures. i have seen it expressed on here several times that this can cause great amounts of anguish and guilt.

so, my questions:
is there a way that natural birth advocates can include c-section mothers?
if not, then what does this mean for those women that have had c-sections?
is the bigger goal to support mothers or to support natural birth?
what do you do when supporting natural birth gets in the way of supporting mothers?
how can the idea of trusting your body be reconciled when your body doesn't do what everyone has been telling you it is natural for your body to do? _is_ that woman's body a failure?


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
is there a way that natural birth advocates can include c-section mothers?

Absolutely. The whole point of natural family living is to do what comes instinctively. If a woman has been in labor for many, many hours and instinctively feels she needs an epidural to rest, that needs to be respected If a woman has suffered abuse or another experience that has led to an intense fear of vaginal birth, she should be offered therapy, but should she decide that a c-section is least traumatic and will allow her to better bond/breastfeed/parent, that needs to be respected. If a woman is bullied or feared into a c-section/induction by a doctor who had claimed to be a natural birth advocate, she needs to be included and her birth respected. Last of all, sometimes c-sections are necessary. A natural birth is no good if it kills or damages mom/baby. There needs to be understanding and encouragement.

To sum it up, natural family living is a holistic approach, with birth being only one part of the equation. If a woman legitimately couldn't breastfeed (or was misled by doctors/LCs), wouldn't we encourage her to still do everything else (nurse, co-sleep, etc)? While not very vocal, there are parents here who do circ, but does that mean they shouldn't homebirth/nurse/co-sleep/not vax/eat healthily? We have many members who follow everything on the long list of "crunchy things" save for one thing. Birth, while a HUGE part of the equation, is just one more thing, and assumptions should never be made without all the details.

Quote:

if not, then what does this mean for those women that have had c-sections?
See above. I think it is terrible that women might feel excluded because of a c-section.

Quote:

is the bigger goal to support mothers or to support natural birth?
To support mothers, hands down. Birth is not a one size fits all formula. If a woman reads all the risks of different interventions but still feels comfortable with it, that is her prerogative and I respect it 100% even though i might not agree with it.

Quote:

what do you do when supporting natural birth gets in the way of supporting mothers?
It never should. I think 99% of us here would agree that the issue is not women, the issue is the system. Doctors are not educating women and are not allowing them true autonomy when it comes to delivery. I would bet my life that if we transformed the birth industry to where women were legitimately informed of the risks of medical birth and given the proper support for natural birth (freedom of movement, do away with lithotomy position, no induction/c-section unless medically necessary, institutionalization of doulas, no IV, the list goes on), we would see c-section rates and epidural rates absolutely plummet. The key to obtaining more natural births has little to do with supporting natural birth itself, and everything to do with informing and supporting women.

Quote:

how can the idea of trusting your body be reconciled when your body doesn't do what everyone has been telling you it is natural for your body to do? _is_ that woman's body a failure?
Every birth has a risk of c-section. I believe recalling that out of home birthing women, only 8% will end up with a c-section. So, given the different types of birthing environment, you have a 8%-33% chance of a section with each birth, more or less depending on the woman and her history. Not everyone is low risk. Sometimes c-sections are necessary. Does that mean the woman's body has completely and utterly failed? Well, if you look at it from a pretty harsh point of view, yes.

However, I am an optimistic person and if I ever had a medically necessary c-section, I would be thankful that I lived in a time where I did have options to make up for when my body just couldn't do it. Birth is a natural process that usually goes just fine. In low-risk women, it almost always goes right. However, sometimes it doesn't and the choice is either severe harm/death or medical intervention, and there is no shame in that. If you took a population of people who ate very healthily and exercised frequently, most of them would make it through life just fine. However, sometimes nature screws up and people get sick. Just like sometimes, something goes wrong with birth, nature screws up.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

I think it has to, having just had one a month ago. I was the most natural homebirthy type of person I knew! I thought birth would be easy- ha! It just wasn't in my case- I know it is for some!
I ended up with a c section. big adjustment.

NOw- I see lots of anti c section stuff- like even in mothering magazine- and it gives me a little grief because it is something I did- felt I had to do. I don't know- for those of us who have had them I think having a place to be at peace with it is helpful somehow, rather than feeling wrong or ashamed or less than. I like how the woman from the girlfriends guide to pregnancy talks about her experience of it.


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## Geigerin (May 7, 2009)

So glad you started this thread! Our little girl was born 4 1/2 weeks ago via c-section. We had planned a homebirth (waterbirth). We had the birthing tub set-up in our living room for 2 weeks. I'd hang out in it every night, practicing my hypnobabies and imagining our amazing birth.

Very long story, but after 5 1/2 hours pushing at home, I was transferred and had a non-emergency c-section. Before this, I will admit that every time I heard 'c-section', I immediately assumed 'unnecessary intervention.' I'm still not certain if mine was 'necessary' or if I had just tried a little longer... We then spent 3 weeks and 4 days trying to get Maddy to latch. It was heartbreaking. Thankfully, she's nursing like a champ now.









I will never again judge women for their choices in birth or parenting. I dont know their circumstances or why they make those choices. This has been the most humbling experience. I think the key to the natural birthing perspective is to make the right choices for ourselves and reserve judgment of others.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Geigerin* 
So glad you started this thread! Our little girl was born 4 1/2 weeks ago via c-section. We had planned a homebirth (waterbirth). We had the birthing tub set-up in our living room for 2 weeks.

me too! Both the 4 and a 1/2 wks ago c section and having the tub set up long in advance!
And also I think birthing and parenting is SO much harder than I thought it would be!! And I used to judge c sections too. Not anymore! Now I just know that we do what we have to do and all choices take great strength and courage.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

My second was a section and our surgery fell into the gray area of was it _really_ necessary. I know in mainstream society it was deemed totally necessary. Where here I am frequently reminded that I could have said no. I think this is partially why it has been hard for me to heal emotionally.

My son was breech and I truly, truly wished that I could have had a trial of labor in a hospital with an experienced OB. That wasn't possible where I am so I decided to have a section as peacefully as possible.

I discussed a home birth with my awesome hospy mw, and she even slipped me contact info about birthing at The Farm in TN. I already knew that The Farm wouldn't accept us because he was so big, and my first child was also big (9.6 lbs). With this info I was not comfortable doing a trial of labor at home, although I know many other woman would have been.

So my 2nd was born via section. He was 10.3 lbs. Most of the time I think it was the right decision, but there are times I have felt unsupported.

My mw acted like a doula and she did her best to keep it as natural as possible within the hospital guidelines. I think this is one way that natural birth advocates could help section mothers. Advocating and giving information about how to keep separation of mom and baby as short as possible. (My son was never more that 10 feet from me, and I could see him the entire time. He was put in my arms even before I was put in my gurney bed and he transferred with me in my arms to the recovery room - very wonderful natural birthy)
Another way is to teach the surgeons to keep their mouths shut during surgery. I got to hear about their golf experiences. In this way I felt demeaned. So I think surgeon education would be another way birth advocates could support section mamas.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

yes, I think the way the surgeons and other people attending the birth treat the situation can add or take away a lot from the experience. I had very kind and respectful doctors and midwives and nurses at my c section and that made a big difference in a good way.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

c-sections fit into natural birth b/c, well, they happen! Many, many women (myself included) went into it wanting nothing more than that peaceful, magical, rainbows and butterlies perfect birth and never dreamed they would be included in the 'statistics' of c-sections performed.

I still consider myself a natural birth advocate - and this after I've had 4 unwanted cesareans. My mom is most definitely a natural birth advocate, as a practicing midwife, and she herself had 2 sections after a vaginal birth. In her situation, she went into pre-term labor at 31 weeks with twins, and had to have an emergency c-section. It might have saved her and my life (sadly, my twin was stillborn). The other c-section was b/c she had a T-incision, and in 1981 vbac'ing was rare, much less with a vertical cut like that.

I guess the thing is that it's perfectly okay to discuss our countries current c-section 'epidemic', and try to somewhat get to the bottom of it, b/c I know there are people who have the desire to save the world one vaginal birth at a time - but the key is doing so in a non-judgmental way. I know it's hard not to judge - I'm guilty of it myself - especially when you feel so passionate about something, but the bottom line is that while yes, we can assume that about half of the c-sections performed are likely unnecessary, there's no way to know for sure which ones are included in that number. No one has a magical crystal ball. I can say I feel like my c-sections were not needed (or I can say they were) and regardless of what I think, there is no way of knowing what the outcomes would have been if I had refused the sections in the end. Comfort can be had in knowing that about half of all c-sections (as high as the statistics may be) *are* in fact necessary.

I mean, heck, compared to what horrors used to occur before c-sections existed, we can be grateful that those medical and technological advances exist. And back in those days, who knows how many of those awful endings to births were necessary, either. The thing is, they (whoever was attending the births), did the best they could at the time with the information they had available - as well as using their gut instinct. If they feared mom's life was in danger and birth wasn't progressing normally, they had to find a way to get baby out, and quick. While there are not-so-natural birth advocates of OB's practicing nowadays, I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they are doing what they feel is best when making most decisions regarding whether or not to section or not. Now, a big part of that is due to their medical training, as flawed as some aspects of it are - so I'm not saying they are in the right the majority of the time, but that they truly believe they are, most of the time.

Women who have had c-sections should be supported unconditionally among the natural birth community - regardless of why the c/s was performed. We can still advocate for change, and better information and education, etc., without alienating other mothers. I don't mean to come off harshly, but I really get annoyed when women who have not had a c-section themselves make somewhat judge-y statements regarding c-sections or how women should be feeling after having had one. Because, really, you have no way at all to determine what exactly went down the day they were cut open, and you have no way at all of understanding how exactly they feel about it.

I think the only thing others can do is be supportive and understanding, regardless of how strongly they feel about the ideal natural birth - b/c even if the number of c-sections were to ever go down - the fact is they are still going to happen.

FWIW, personally, while I wish I never had c-sections, I can't relate to some of the feelings other have b/c I was never separated from my babies, or treated badly, etc., I know I am lucky in this regards when I hear of the horror stories - and w/o my mom there as my advocate and hand-picked nurses and my wonderful OB, I may not have had such positive experiences. Which leads me to think that part of the advocacy needs to be for still meeting mom and baby's needs in the event a c-section occurs. It is possible, to nurse right away, to keep baby in the recovery room, and promote bonding - I really think that right there would alleviate at least a portion of the trauma many women feel.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Having been a HB doula for 10 years prior to getting pregnant, I had *no* doubt I'd have a blissed out waterbirth in my living room. We even filmed our trial runs and made a blog/documentary about how excited and unafraid we were of our birth.

And then it started... and it was all the huge amounts of pain I knew it would be, but I was so grateful to be doing it. One of the most poignant, and heartbreaking moments of my life came over 60 hours later, after 15 hours of pushing a big headed stuck baby, when I just stood up naked in the tub and grabbed on to my partner's neck and sobbed sobbed sobbed. He knew at that moment what I meant by those cries. My dream of a homebirth was dying. Baby was healthy, I was healthy, but he just simply wasn't being born. Slipping in and out of life and death I felt in the last of those hours of pushing... and I just stood up and made the decision to live. But at that same moment I was giving up the moment I had been dreaming and dreaming about, feeling my boy push out and slide up my body to my breasts. I ached for that sensation my entire pregnancy.

I chose to get a c-section at that moment because I believed 100% his chances and my chances of health and life were stronger with that choice. But in that choice I had to give up my coveted place in the natural birth community. I was so *bitter* about all my friend's homebirths happening in the same few weeks. I was so sensitive to ANY questioning of mothers who had never had c-sections going on and on about how horrible they are.

A year later my scar is so dark and prominent and much higher than any other I've seen. Every day when I look at it I feel slightly less bitter, but it's a long, hard process. My son is worth any ideal being broken, he's worth any pain on my part. If it takes ripping my body to shreds to get this big and beautiful guy out of me, sign me up.

But you're exactly right, OP, it's so hard to see where you fit in the NB community anymore.


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## Geigerin (May 7, 2009)

*Altair*-







You have so much courage and strength. I'm so glad you have a healthy babe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katie34* 
me too! Both the 4 and a 1/2 wks ago c section and having the tub set up long in advance!
And also I think birthing and parenting is SO much harder than I thought it would be!! And I used to judge c sections too. Not anymore! Now I just know that we do what we have to do and all choices take great strength and courage.

So glad to know I'm not alone in this. We had our homebirth support group meeting last week, and it broke my heart being the only one to have to say our birth ended in a transfer and c-section. I felt like a failure and an outcast. No one in my group made me feel that way- that's how I made myself feel. Seeing there are other women in the same boat is healing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

hmm...my perspective is probably a little different, because I didn't even know there was a natural birth community until _after_ I'd had two unwanted c-sections, and was pregnant with ds2...and having nightmares.

I don't have any answers, except that I think there has be respect for how the mother feels about her experience...in either direction. I see the post-cesarean "armchair quarterbacking" and it bugs me. I also see the "you _have_ to look at it the right way" thing and it bugs me, too.

I'm not in any other woman's shoes. I can't say what was right or wrong in her particular situation, and I sure can't say she's right or wrong for feeling a particular way. I'm never going to say "you shouldn't have had the epi, then everything would be great". However, I'm also never going to use the term "natural cesarean" or even "empowered cesarean", because I think the first is nonsensical and the second is simply not my reality. There are very few things that I find less empowering than lying on an OR table while somebody cuts my numb, unmoving body open. (And, I say this as someone who walked into a new OB's office about 15-16 months ago and said, "I'm pregnant with my fifth baby, and I'll be having a c-section", and who asked for several things, and got most of them.) So, those terms just aren't in my book at all.

I think supporting moms is the most important things. Gentle birth is great. Having a non-gentle birth and then being emotionally beat up by people is not so great. I personally don't care if people tell me the mistakes I made, because I know they're right in my case. I just kept caving, even though I knew it wasn't in my best interests, or the best interest of my baby/babies. That doesn't mean I'm going to beat up some other mom who's having trouble processing things. It sucks to be beaten up by people when you need support. In my case, that "beating up" has been mostly from the "mainstream", so this issue has been very slow to show up on my radar...but it's there.

We need to stop reframing and redefining other people's experiences. That's the bottom line, at least to me.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I think people forget that death is natural too.

Mother nature does not care about you or your child. Yes, in the natural world in order for an entire species to survive, many members of that species need to survive (although obviously for some species, very few do to adulthood).

But mother nature does not care if ONE baby or ONE mother survives. Or if there is damage.

My baby died because we were not able to have a c-section in time for various complicated reasons. There is no question that had we had a section at the critical point, she would have been fine. Instead I watched the very natural process of her oxygen-starved 4 days of life culminating in death.

It was biology at its most dictatorial, really. Natural does not necessarily mean safe or risk-free. People who think that are enjoying a luxury in their experience.

So - basically I think that unless people are ready to return to losing babies at delivery at the same rates that they would die naturally, yes, absolutely there is room for intervention including c-sections.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

mamas! thank you so much for your responses and sharing your stories.

i have a couple of ideas to address but my dd is sick and needs mama right now. so, quickly, it seems like natural birth was a goal for many of you and the subsequent loss of that dream was very painful.

do you think that you could have been prepared to view your experience positively? do you think that your reaction and healing is a matter of personality? are you generally an optimist or a pessimist in other areas of your life?

i guess, i want all women to be at peace with their births and i feel sometimes that the constant questioning of c-sections can hinder that. i fear that the more strident natural birth advocates can cause emotional damage to otherwise healthy women and i'd like to figure out a way for everyone to get on the "don't judge until you've been there" boat with me.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i just want to







each and every one of you that has shared their story. thank you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i have a couple of ideas to address but my dd is sick and needs mama right now. so, quickly, it seems like natural birth was a goal for many of you and the subsequent loss of that dream was very painful.

Yes.

Quote:

do you think that you could have been prepared to view your experience positively?
No. To this day - 17 years after my first c-section - I still struggle to understand that there actually are women who don't have the same feelings I have. I know there are, but it's _so_ alien to me that I can't grasp it.

Quote:

do you think that your reaction and healing is a matter of personality?
Partly, I'm sure. Partly, it's from growing up knowing that my mom's belly was torn up (she had a vertical skin incision, classical uterine incision, and bad keloids) to get me out. I had a gut level aversion to the idea from the time I was a child.

Quote:

are you generally an optimist or a pessimist in other areas of your life?
I used to be more of an optimist. My "birth" experiences have spilled over into my worldview in a big way, and I struggle every day with it.

Quote:

i guess, i want all women to be at peace with their births and i feel sometimes that the constant questioning of c-sections can hinder that. i fear that the more strident natural birth advocates can cause emotional damage to otherwise healthy women and i'd like to figure out a way for everyone to get on the "don't judge until you've been there" boat with me.
This may be the case. I hear it a lot. IME, it was the "you're so lucky you didn't have to push out a baby" and "you cheated" comments that made it harder to heal...oh, and that long bout of secondary infertility, and the three miscarriages, all of which seemed linked to my c-section. (In retropsect, they probably weren't. I think they had a lot to do with my ex's drug use...but "that c-section wrecked my uterus" was my emotional reality for almost 10 years.) I do realize that being told you're a failure, when you don't think so (or even if you do?), would be very hard to cope with, emotionally. Being told I caught all the breaks when I didn't think I did was hard to cope with, too.

I guess it really does come down to simply accepting and honouring where the mother is within herself.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

storm bride- i could see that too.

the mainstream world is much more accepting (and even advocating) of c-sections. so, there really is a disconnect where people don't see that it can be an issue about loss and grieving the natural birth you didn't have.

at the same time, i feel like there is a LOT of emphasis on having a natural birth in the first place that can cause a marginalization of women that do have c-sections.

i'd like there to be a happy medium and i guess that since i can only control myself and my thoughts, i'll have to be more of an advocate of respect either way.


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## CoBabyMaker (Nov 13, 2008)

I have to agree with a lot of what has already been said.
I wanted to add...To me, much of the reason I value natural birth is because it is part of motherhood. It is part of my deep-seated need to protect my child because I am her mother. (I'm not saying I don't have an issue with surgical risks to moms but it's not been my biggest emotional hurdle personally.) I so badly wanted a natural birth because I believe (in most cases) it is the best way to prepare to care for your child. THAT was my biggest personal struggle, not that my body had failed me but that I had failed to protect my child.
I completely agree with previous poster that there needs to be a change in the system to support mothers after birth. There NEEDS to be contact, no removal of the baby, BF initiation. To me, that is why natural birth is important, it promotes those things.
I know that some women mentioned that they feel fine about their c/s most of the time but feel shamed on these boards. (I am no way saying that those feelings are wrong.) For me, however, I appreciate that I am "allowed" to be angry/hurt/etc. about it here with other women. I guess I am trying to say that one of the things I appreciate about the natural birth community is that they understand why I'm not ok with my c/s.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CoBabyMaker* 
I wanted to add...To me, much of the reason I value natural birth is because it is part of motherhood. It is part of my deep-seated need to protect my child because I am her mother. (I'm not saying I don't have an issue with surgical risks to moms but it's not been my biggest emotional hurdle personally.) I so badly wanted a natural birth because I believe (in most cases) it is the best way to prepare to care for your child. THAT was my biggest personal struggle, not that my body had failed me but that I had failed to protect my child.

This is related to my issues, as well. I don't exactly feel that I failed to protect my child (except for poor little Aaron) with respect to the birth. But, I went through hell being unable to care for him properly afterwards. (This was particularly true of my first one, because of the drugs they gave me, and the lack of food, on top of the labour and surgery.) I had this tiny little person I was supposed to be totally responsible for, and I couldn't even take care of _myself_. It was an absolutely horrible initiation into motherhood. And, honestly...if I hadn't been so bloody-minded about breastfeeding - and so incredibly broke - I don't think I'd have managed that, either. It just hurt so much, and it was _so_ much work to get him positioned, latched, etc.

That's one area I have occasionally felt shamed here. It's been a while, but I'd say something about being unable to get out of bed, and get a response like, "having a c-section doesn't mean you can't stand up - I know, because I've had one" (no apparently understanding that they're not all the same) or "I had to get out of bed - I was too concerned about my baby in the NICU to even be aware of my pain" (strong implication that any mom who couldn't get up must not care that much about the baby - or at least that's how it felt). Those comments were really hard to take. I had very little trouble (comparatively) getting up and mobile after ds2 or dd2. I had a _ton_ of trouble after ds1.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I think that we on MDC see women who react more negatively to c-sections because of the universal thought here that natural is the ideal. I know that more mainstream women generally aren't as attached to their birth process, with many of them thinking that they'd like to shoot for natural, but at the end of the day the doctor is going to do a c-section if that's what is perceived as "best."

In fact, reading many of the stories here of women who suffer negative feelings following c-sections, there is usually some variation of the woman saying "I never thought I'd have a c-section, I did everything right to avoid it, but still ended up with one." With home birth and women who plan (actually plan, not just hope for) natural births, few seem to realize that a c-section might be the outcome, even if they do everything perfectly. The shock of the unexpected probably has a lot to do with the trouble coping.

Once again, I'm only speculating, as I have yet to have children. I hope that I never have to have a c-section. If I do though, I imagine I would thank god that I had access to the technology I needed to survive, go forth with my AP self and aim for a HBAC if I decided on a second. It's been pointed out though that we're all boxed in by our own perspective, and different people think differently.


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## mama de dos (Sep 11, 2003)

First off, enormous hugs and wishes for peace for all the mamas who have shared their stories here. I am moved and inspired by what you've shared and I wish peace for all of you.
















I hope it's ok for me to post here... I've not had a c-section, but I am a childbirth educator and I'm always looking for ways to encourage and support *all* the moms I work with, which of course includes moms who will end up with a cesarean birth.

One thing that I try to talk about with my classes, which may speak to some of you here, is that I firmly believe that there are many cases in which the mom's body/intuition *protects* the baby by making a cesarean necessary. Often, a mom will have a cesarean and the cause of the surgery won't be obvious. However, I believe that there are reasons for c-section we don't and can't understand. Just as intuition can guide a mom through a safe natural, vaginal delivery, it can also ensure that the baby is NOT born vaginally, b/c for that baby, it wouldn't be safe. Does that make sense??

For example, perhaps a particular baby has a very short cord, or one that is in danger of being severely compressed (due to baby's position, mom's pelvic shape, whatever). That baby may never descend enough to be born vaginally, despite mom's, midwife's, doula's best efforts, many different positions, walking, pushing upright, faith, belief, time, patience, etc... That baby just won't come. A c-section becomes necessary. The OB may or may not recognize the short cord, but the mama's body KNEW and PROTECTED that baby by ensuring a surgical birth, b/c that was the safest (only?) way for that baby to be born. Her body didn't fail her baby, it protected it.

I think it's important that we recognize that sometimes a mother's willingness to surrender to a cesarean birth IS her intuition and her body protecting her baby. It is her body's wisdom doing the best for her baby.

Of course this isn't always the case, and women do get coerced or forced into c-sections for a thousand different reasons, but to answer the ? of the OP, yes, there is room to recognize that ONE way a woman can honor her baby's and body's wisdom is to have a c-section to protect one or both of them. Women deserve to hear that, too.

I know this won't necessarily mean that women won't or "shouldn't" still have a difficult time accepting or processing a c-section, that's not the case at all. There is still much to process and women need tremendous support for that. However, I hope it does give some women a different angle to view it from that maybe they've never heard or considered.

With all best wishes,
Jennifer


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## CoBabyMaker (Nov 13, 2008)

Storm Bride, Exactly! DD was in the NICU and I could hardly get to her because I was in so much pain after laboring for so long, pushing and the c/x plus all the drugs. I would literally be falling asleep in the chair within 5 minutes of walking (if you could call it that) down the hall to the NICU. I was so drugged that it took me hours to even remember that I should nurse her after the c/s- very different from the "nurse right away while the cord is still pulsing" I had planned. It made me unable to protect and care for my child! THAT is what my biggest struggle has been.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think people forget that death is natural too.

Mother nature does not care about you or your child. Yes, in the natural world in order for an entire species to survive, many members of that species need to survive (although obviously for some species, very few do to adulthood).

But mother nature does not care if ONE baby or ONE mother survives. Or if there is damage.

My baby died because we were not able to have a c-section in time for various complicated reasons. There is no question that had we had a section at the critical point, she would have been fine. Instead I watched the very natural process of her oxygen-starved 4 days of life culminating in death.

It was biology at its most dictatorial, really. Natural does not necessarily mean safe or risk-free. People who think that are enjoying a luxury in their experience.

So - basically I think that unless people are ready to return to losing babies at delivery at the same rates that they would die naturally, yes, absolutely there is room for intervention including c-sections.

Oh my goodness I am so sorry, and you are so right. Somehow the word "natural" has some to mean something akin to sweetness and light, when it is not really that at all. Yes, most women are able to give birth the way "nature intended", but some are not. I don't see why we should ever feel shame for it when we have healthy babies.

There is certainly a degree of hubris with making a birth plan in the first place. I know that I researched the heck out of birth interventions, and how to circumnavigate them. I did _not_ research the complications of a C-section because I knew that armed with my new knowledge I would never need one. So basically what Kayla said above.

Hah!

I don't personally know anyone who has had a C-section who leview judgement on others who have, so in a way I think that judgement stems out of naiveity.

I am really not that bitter that I had a section because after 30 hours of labor I had a gut feeling that something.was.not.right. What I am bitter about is that they seperated me from my baby for a few hours waiting for my bloodpressure to "get high enough." Heck it only ever gets close to "normal" when I am super stressed out. I kept telling them that too...but they blew me off. THAT is what pisses me off when I think about it today. I think I was lucky that the kid nursed as well as he did after waiting for so long.

Oh, and the scar bothers me quite a bit. Its really purple and raised and ugly. I am trying to come to terms with that scar more than anything else...vain, I know.

Everyone, this is my 1000th post and I am thrilled to be a part of this community! Y'all have helped me out more than I can express. Thank you so much.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The intuition thing always upsets me. I don't have it. I had no idea that ds1 had flipped breech. I really didn't believe anything was seriously wrong with Aaron. I just don't seem to have that awareness at all. Looking back, it should have been obvious that something had changed with ds1, but I thought he'd just rotated and his bum was pressing out. He'd actually flipped, and his head was pushing out beside my navel.


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

I can't say much more than the previous posters, but I wanted to say that I identify with the feelings expressed, especially Altairs description of the surrender to the lost ideal of natural birth (especially homebirth). I also agree that there are so many aspects of NFL that come into play after birth that for me, time does heal the wound of my 2 failed natural births. The important role of raising my children has taken over a lot of my feelings of guilt over the way they have come into the world. I do feel little pangs of sadness when I read many of the typical natural birth catch phrases (your body won't grow a baby that you cannot birth, or trust birth, or have a homebirth- its the only way to have a natural birth). I feel like these blanket statements might inspire some false confidence. Even as a mama who had a c/s I STILL felt judgemental towards people who were planning c/s because I was going to "get it right" the next time. Have a homebirth and avoid all that intervention stuff.

I'm still not sure where I fit in around here. I started my journey here SO pumped about a natural birth and after the first c/s made it my LIFE to prepare for my perfect home VBAC, and then now 2 c/s under my belt I feel like the black sheep of the natural birthing community. All that desire and research, and trust in my body, for nothing. No credibility.







I feel like its my job now to comfort other mamas who have been through the same ordeal as me. So I peek back in here occasionally. But I have moved on and try to fill my life with other things besides birth- the thing that has consumed me for the last 5 years.

And your question OP _how can the idea of trusting your body be reconciled when your body doesn't do what everyone has been telling you it is natural for your body to do? _is_ that woman's body a failure?_ Perhaps the view of natural birth is too idealistic? Setting women up for failure? It seems that many women don't seem to particularly care how their babies get here as long as they are healthy and alive.....maybe we could learn a thing or two from them?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotus.blossom* 
But I have moved on and try to fill my life with other things besides birth- the thing that has consumed me for the last 5 years.

Yeah. I know that one. My life has been consumed by ttc, and trying to VBAC, for 17 years. Now, I need to figure out what else there is left...


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

lisa


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Very interesting thread. I just wanted to throw out my two cents, that the term "natural" birth has always rubbed me wrong. It seems that the message is, unless you have an unmedicated, vaginal birth, you've done something wrong. I know most of us at MDC would agree that c-sections are abused in the USA and many other countries, and that it's preferable to encourage non-drug pain management techniques over automatically reaching for the epidural. But I think it's condescending and unfair to call someone's birth "unnatural" because there was a legitamate need for and use of medical technology.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Having been a HB doula for 10 years prior to getting pregnant, I had *no* doubt I'd have a blissed out waterbirth in my living room. We even filmed our trial runs and made a blog/documentary about how excited and unafraid we were of our birth.

And then it started... and it was all the huge amounts of pain I knew it would be, but I was so grateful to be doing it. One of the most poignant, and heartbreaking moments of my life came over 60 hours later, after 15 hours of pushing a big headed stuck baby, when I just stood up naked in the tub and grabbed on to my partner's neck and sobbed sobbed sobbed. He knew at that moment what I meant by those cries. My dream of a homebirth was dying. Baby was healthy, I was healthy, but he just simply wasn't being born. Slipping in and out of life and death I felt in the last of those hours of pushing... and I just stood up and made the decision to live. But at that same moment I was giving up the moment I had been dreaming and dreaming about, feeling my boy push out and slide up my body to my breasts. I ached for that sensation my entire pregnancy.

I chose to get a c-section at that moment because I believed 100% his chances and my chances of health and life were stronger with that choice. But in that choice *I had to give up my coveted place in the natural birth community.* I was so *bitter* about all my friend's homebirths happening in the same few weeks. I was so sensitive to ANY questioning of mothers who had never had c-sections going on and on about how horrible they are.

A year later my scar is so dark and prominent and much higher than any other I've seen. Every day when I look at it I feel slightly less bitter, but it's a long, hard process. My son is worth any ideal being broken, he's worth any pain on my part. If it takes ripping my body to shreds to get this big and beautiful guy out of me, sign me up.

But you're exactly right, OP, it's so hard to see where you fit in the NB community anymore.

The bolded is exactly how I've felt, but unable to put so poignantly. Ugh. I am a LLL Leader, and everytime birth comes up, I feel sort of sick.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah. I know that one. My life has been consumed by ttc, and trying to VBAC, for 17 years. Now, I need to figure out what else there is left...

Lisa, I only spent 10 years on that train, but that was long enough. Peace to you.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is related to my issues, as well. I don't exactly feel that I failed to protect my child (except for poor little Aaron) with respect to the birth. But, I went through hell being unable to care for him properly afterwards. (This was particularly true of my first one, because of the drugs they gave me, and the lack of food, on top of the labour and surgery.) I had this tiny little person I was supposed to be totally responsible for, and I couldn't even take care of _myself_. It was an absolutely horrible initiation into motherhood. And, honestly...if I hadn't been so bloody-minded about breastfeeding - and so incredibly broke - I don't think I'd have managed that, either. It just hurt so much, and it was _so_ much work to get him positioned, latched, etc.

That's one area I have occasionally felt shamed here. It's been a while, but I'd say something about being unable to get out of bed, and get a response like, "having a c-section doesn't mean you can't stand up - I know, because I've had one" (no apparently understanding that they're not all the same) or "I had to get out of bed - I was too concerned about my baby in the NICU to even be aware of my pain" (strong implication that any mom who couldn't get up must not care that much about the baby - or at least that's how it felt). Those comments were really hard to take. I had very little trouble (comparatively) getting up and mobile after ds2 or dd2. I had a _ton_ of trouble after ds1.

I will just second teh idea of not being able to care for my baby after the cs. Although, with my second, I was discharged 24 hours after birth (my choice), immediately after he was born via cs, there was no way I could walk (obviously). If he were in harms way, I couldn't physically go to him with a gaping wound in my abdomen. Cs leaves the mother (and thuis the baby) extremely vulnerable


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## moaningminny (Dec 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's one area I have occasionally felt shamed here. It's been a while, but I'd say something about being unable to get out of bed, and get a response like, "having a c-section doesn't mean you can't stand up - I know, because I've had one" (no apparently understanding that they're not all the same) or "I had to get out of bed - I was too concerned about my baby in the NICU to even be aware of my pain" (strong implication that any mom who couldn't get up must not care that much about the baby - or at least that's how it felt). Those comments were really hard to take. I had very little trouble (comparatively) getting up and mobile after ds2 or dd2. I had a _ton_ of trouble after ds1.

Thank you so much Storm Bride! I had horrible problems with DD#1. My pain control was non-existant, and I had a really hard time getting over to the NICU to see my DD. One of my nurses said to me "The NICU says you haven't been over to see your baby much". I felt incredibly guilty. I was in a lot of pain, traumatised and grieving my 31weeker's early arrival. I've always felt as though I didn't try hard enoug to get over there - if I really wanted to, I could have - at least those are some of the feelings I get when I read other people's ability to get over to their newborns. I'm just very happy to see someone else who really struggled with the same thing. It makes me feel more - normal, for lack of a better word.


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## Babina's Mommy (Dec 27, 2008)

I am definitely right there with you ladies who have had the planned homebirth turned C-sections...I felt a degree of failure...but it was more how I appeared in the eyes of others...it was and is a long story and a long labor that resulted in a very much needed C-section...I agree with this:

Quote:

Perhaps the view of natural birth is too idealistic? Setting women up for failure? It seems that many women don't seem to particularly care how their babies get here as long as they are healthy and alive.....maybe we could learn a thing or two from them?
and

Quote:

But I think it's condescending and unfair to call someone's birth "unnatural" because there was a legitamate need for and use of medical technology.
I tried to have a homebirth and a natural both with both of my children, both for reasons that may be different than some of yours, or may be the same...I won't bore you with that...but I'll say that at this point and if I have another child, I won't be focusing so much on how the baby is born. I will try to have a VBAC. If it doesn't work, then fine. I just care about a healthy baby. I know that sounds so cliche, but it's so true. I'd say that I parent pretty naturally all the time, so if that one day has got to be a little more unnatural, then so be it. My disclaimer for that is that I just don't give birth good. I know that's horrible to say but it's the truth. I need help on my babies' birthdays, and medical help at that. Ha. Everyone who has to hear my birth story, hears about how I tried. I tried all those many, many hours to push out a ten pound baby and it wasn't happening. So I'm proud when I say I had my C-section after all that time. This is why my C-section ribbon is in my signature. I am an awesome breastfeeder, baby wearer, attachment parenter, etc but I cannot give birth well. And I really do believe it's the other things that make the most difference as a parent.

Also, some thing in this C-section and hospital stay were comforting and conducive to natural parenting. My anesthesia guy was really great at talking to me about the baby and about how huge he was and how about how I didn't fail, during the surgery. They had left the baby's cord on for a few minutes and left it long so my husband was able to cut it still even though it was a C-section. He was shown to me, taken away for a little while, given back to my husband who brought him back to show me. Then I was put in the recover room, I was passed out but my husband latched him on my breast for me.







I only vaguely remember this but there is a picture of it and I love it. I was put into my room and didn't think about the C-section or anything much. I couldn't believe how cute my little guy was. And the hospital was really good about a lot of the things like the baby was never really taken from me, he was allowed to sleep with me in my bed (which the hospital I was at with my daughter didn't allow this) they encouraged breastfeeding, breastfeeding only, and lots of it. They give you a cart with diapers and stuff on it, and there is a stack of prefold diapers, good quality too...so you can pick what you want to use. I loved them. I definitely believe your C-section experience can and does fit in with being natural.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I am a natural birth advocate, I've had 2 c/s. I totally believe that natural is better, but for me my dream of a waterbirth got taken away purely by all the natural aspects of birth. I have felt labor, I had my water break, I puked every contraction and felt like I was literally being ripped in half, I finally got an epi after 18 hours of labor so I could relax a little, it barely took, but it took the edge off. I took 27 hours to dilate, then spent the next 3 pushing in different positions only to have my DD wedged so far into the left side of my pelvis that it made me have to have a T incision on my uterus, and the dr could barely get DD out. My uterus stopped contracting due to extreme fatigue, I'd been up for over 40+ hours, so yeah I was tired. I watched as the nurse felt my stomach go soft, I _felt it go soft._ I saw the looks on the faces of my DH and mom, my Dr, it was obvious that my c/s was necessary. With the way I felt, there was no second wind for me or DD. It was a dangerous situation and I am glad that I was in the hospital. We were not coerced, it was not forced-I did do the best I could, but because of my broken tailbone when I was 20, I don't think that DD could come out-at least that's my theory.

I am personally only bitter about one aspect-my treatment by the natural birth community. The local midwife who had recently graduated told me that the *only* reason I had a c/s was because I was scared







. I still barely talk to her because it pisses me off to no end. My birth was honestly none of her business, she wasn't my midwife or my Dr, she didn't know a damn thing. I honestly hate how many people who have had hb or uc act, like well I did it why can't you?! I feel like it really is like pouring lemon juice on an open wound. I was told after DDs emergency c/s I would never be a candidate for a VBAC because of that T on my uterus, it almost made me never want to get pg again. I read I studied, I found out that a VBAC was very dangerous given my type of situation. When I went in for DS's I found out that there is a 15-25% chance of rupture.

Personally I DO believe that attitude is everything, at least for me. I did birth two beautiful children, and yes I believe they are births-that is my choice of wording. I hate to feel like we as women are pitted against one another because somehow I failed or am broken. I'm not. I've grown two beautiful, healthy children from my womb, and for me I feel like it is an insult by anyone to deny me the fact that they were born. They may have been surgical births, yes that is true, but they are MINE and my DH's so it's really no one else's business how they came out.


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## Babina's Mommy (Dec 27, 2008)

My midwife gave me a hard time about my C-section too. She said I was scared. She said I wasn't trying. Being dramatic. All things like that.

So when I was transferred (by my request) the ob who did my section and anesthesiologist have more a "you poor baby!" attitude, I end up liking them better...at least for the time being. The things I was against in the beginning. I ended up liking. Ha.

Luckily my midwife later apologized and said she should've listened to me earlier...but I know what you mean....


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

My planned home birth turned into a C-section at term because of undiagnosed placenta previa. I was upset and disappointed, not to mention scared for my baby, but never felt the least guilty or inadequate. I underwent surgery to save my son's life, and I was glad it was available.

I do not see why a CS would imply a woman's body has failed, any more than undergoing a medical procedure to set a broken bone or stitch up a bad laceration would imply failure. A healthy body works beautifully - at reproduction just like anything else - but when the system occasionally does not work perfectly, medicine can sometimes help. That is the approach I take as a "natural" birth advocate.

Where the guilt really lies is with members of the medical profession who have made normal birth so difficult, unsafe, and stressful, it ends in surgery far more often than is needed. The way to remove the burden of guilt from CS mothers is to hand it over to those who really deserve it. I rarely see a woman choose CS lightly, but I could not say the same for obstetricians. There is nothing the OB/Gyn system would like better than to have women blaming themselves, and each other, for that system's mismanagement.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Every now and then I'm tempted to start a tribe for mamas who went to the hospital to have their babies via ambulance. We could talk about the paramedics, and the things we packed or didn't manage to pack and how we feel about the phrase "trust birth."

I am with Guild Jenn - death is natural. Medicine can help. I had a c-section because of placenta previa and natural birth advocates made me want to tear my hair out while I was still pregnant. I hated the way they walked around feeling sorry for me in advance about the birth experience I wasn't going to have and how it was going to screw up my relationship with my baby and my ability to breast feed.

I made it to the NICU fairly soon after the birth - first on a gurney, then by wheelchair, not on my own feet until the next day - but the "I was so worried about the baby I didn't notice the pain" thing ticks me off too. I have never been that worried about anything. The thing that made me not care about the pain? I'm pretty sure it was morphine. I recovered really well from the surgery and I was moving around very soon afterwards, but in the weeks before my daughter's birth, when people told me how fast they'd gotten out of bed ("five hours", "two hours", "an hour and a half!") I felt terrified at how fast I was evidently supposed to stagger to my feet with a brand new gut wound. I gave my husband this long lecture about how he was absolutely not to base his expectations on these statements.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

This thread has been an interesting read.

I've had an epidural birth, a med-free hospital birth, and an emergency c-section.

My c-section was for a placental abruption. I woke up at home in the middle of the night to pee, my water broke and I was hemorrhaging. A very short time later, I was under general anesthesia. Baby and I are both fine and I'm *THANKFUL* for my c-section. I took me a bit to get to that place, but it saved her life and maybe mine. I don't have anything to look back at and say, "Gee what if I'd done this instead of that? Would I have had a different outcome."

Yet, I still find myself writing about it defensively. I want to make sure people know that this was a 'real' emergency, that my abruption wasn't the result of an induction or drug use or a car accident, that it wasn't anything *I* did.

I often find myself in a weird place between my crunchy, pro-natural birth friends and my more mainstream friends. I have mainstream friends who have had c-sections and rave about how wonderful they were and insist that if I ever have another one that a scheduled section doesn't hurt as much as an emergency section. When I say that I'll never lay down for a voluntary c-section, and will in fact travel more than 2 hours for a VBAC, it's like I've suddenly started speaking a foreign language. It literally does not compute with them. They look at me vaguely and move on to talking about something else.

I do believe in the 'intuition' that a PP mentioned. I'd planned a home birth with that 3rd baby, but never felt good about. After a lot of thought and prayer I resigned myself to another hospital birth. I had a vague feeling my entire pg that it might end in a c-section and gave my husband a lot of instructions 'in case'--all of which he followed to a T (as a result, nobody else but him and the nurses held the baby and I was stitched instead of stapled).

I don't know that I really feel like my body 'failed'. 'Malfunctioned' might be a a better term, but I'd had 2 successful vaginal births before so maybe that colors my thinking. Still, I have to look at what went right. . . she was at term, she was healthy, she breastfed beautifully (easier than my natural birth baby, who was actually my most difficult







), and I recovered really well from my section. If we have a fourth, then I'll definitely attempt a VBAC. I do think unmedicated vaginal is the best way to go. But yeah, there's room for medicine and it's skills sometimes too.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

_is there a way that natural birth advocates can include c-section mothers?_

there are lots of ways that c-sectioned mothers are included in natural birth dialogues.

first, there are those women who have necessary (whether planned/scheduled or unscheduled) c-sections. these are the easiest to include, i suppose, because we all agree to the value of the c-section when it is necessary.

second, there are those women who had an emergency c-section. these tend to fall into three categories: 1. believing/knowing it was absolutely necessary (which puts them into that first group); 2. believing/knowing it was absolutely unnecessary; and 3. questioning whether or not it was necessary.

i find that those in the second group tend to be the greatest advocates for natural birth--which naturally arises out of their experiences. they are also a great support for those questioning, and those questioning, in turn, tend to really be the catalyst for finding balance between supporting women who had c-section whether or not we know or they know it was necessary, while also still advocating for natural birth.

all of these women help us understand the value and importance of safe birth--whether with or without interventions.

_is the bigger goal to support mothers or to support natural birth?_

there are two issues here. what is it to support natural birth, and does that support mothers?

the real question is what are we advocating when we advocate for natural birth? is it that it is important for every woman to birth naturally?

the answer is no.

the point of advocating natural birth is not to be exclusive or unsupportive of mothers who do not have natural births, but rather to open the culture up to the dialogue about birth choices.

for all that people assert that women have choices, culturally speaking, women really only have one "choice" that is unquestioned and fully supported--hospital, OB attended birth. these are rarely intervention free.

so the real purpose of birth advocacy is to talk about what the options are and to support women in discovering those options and choosing from those options what is best for them.

this is not exclusive. it doesn't say that "only those who have a natural birth are good/right/adequate, and everyone else isn't." it is simply saying "we advocate for natural birth as a safe mode of birth, not just hospital births."

So, by opening up this dialogue, it is inherently supportive of mothers. Mothers can choose to birth in the places and ways that they prefer, that they think is right for them, rather than feeling the emotional and cultural pressures to birth in a certain way as dictated by cultural normatives, particularly when that way sometimes leads to harm women and/or children.

_what do you do when supporting natural birth gets in the way of supporting mothers?
_

i haven't seen this happen, as per the definition above, but i can understand how the issue gets confused.

in our culture, there is a lot of confusion about difference. for some people the idea of having multiple "right" answers is confusing. for many people in our culture, there is only one answer for any given question. this is the culturally approved answer.

those who believe in only one answer tend to also hold the belief that those who would disagree are not only wrong, but also bad.

so when someone disagrees with them, they assume that "that person" holds the same assumptive process that they do--disagree. . .wrong. . .bad. so, they 'read in' an implicit moral judgment. i have run into this so many times in our culture, it's kind of freaky.

so, this relates to the natural birth advocacy in this way:

in our culture, there is only one safe way to birth--in a hospital with an OB. if this was not true, then the women who come here would not be posting "how do i convince my husband/mom/partner/best friend/pastor that homebirth is ok?"

thus, it goes this way: anyone who doesn't birth in a hospital is wrong and therefore also bad.

but then, it also goes this way: by having a homebirth, you are demonstrating that you disagree with me/us (that there is one true way to safely birth), and therefore you think those of us who birth in hospitals are wrong, and therefore you also think we are bad (and thus are judging us).

the truth is that advocates of natural birth are not inherently judging hospital birth, but rather simply acting on their own information and birth options, and wanting to open the dialogue for other women to have more options.

options, btw, includes having a hospital birth with an OB *if one so chooses*.

but often in the passions of learning, and the emotions of taking on a new perspective, the language gets confused into an "us vs them" mentality. even i have been subject to it in my own discoveries and explorations of myself in relationship to birth. and, i've made a number of horrible, mistaken, not-really-what-mean/feel statements over the years. to err is human, or so it is said.

so sometimes, feelings get trampled on, judgements happen.

_how can the idea of trusting your body be reconciled when your body doesn't do what everyone has been telling you it is natural for your body to do? _is_ that woman's body a failure?_

trusting oneself and one's body is really separate from whether or not the birth is intervention free.

in the UC construct, the idea is that you trust your intuition, and if your intuition is telling you to get help, then you get help. it is not about whether or not you actually birth unassisted. it is about birthing safely.

thus, it's never about whether or not someone "failed" at birthing or if their body "failed." the mother does exactly what she is supposed to do--get help when she needs it to birth safely.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Very interesting topic. After my emergency c-section under general anesthesia, I was in shock. I could hardly believe it had happened to me, the super-duper natural birth advocate. I started to process it, only to encounter pity and condescension from people in the natural-birth community (or that's the way it felt, perhaps I'm projecting...).

I know in my heart that it was a necessary procedure that saved my baby's life. And I also had a nagging sense throughout my pregnancy that I wasn't going to have the perfect birth experience I'd had with my first. So I do believe in the intuition thing. And when the decision was made to operate, I was relieved, because I thought my baby was going to die.

It has been a very, very humbling experience. The most important thing I learned was that I speak for no one but myself. I will never, ever listen to or read another woman's birth story and think to myself "If only she hadn't....". We're all doing the best we can with the information at hand.


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## loveneverfails (Feb 20, 2009)

I haven't had a c-section. I have, however, had birth complications that put me solidly into the "does not trust birth" camp.

The attitude towards c-sections and other interventions that I've seen on MDC makes me deeply uncomfortable, and personally I feel it rises to the level of faith you'd have in a religion. There are so many statements that aren't remotely evidence based, and which basically come down to "birth: YOU DID IT WRONG." Intuition isn't scientific. Trusting birth doesn't keep your placenta from abrupting, and not trusting birth won't somehow cause you to encounter a rare and true complication.

The statement that bugs me the most based on my own history is that "your baby won't grow a baby too big to give birth to." Guess what? My body totally did. My body absolutely grew a baby who was too big for me to give birth to safely, and she was born with a 1 minute Apgar of 0 due to nuchal cord x2 that could not be dealt with until we had resolved her 3 minute shoulder dystocia. She's fine now, but she was born dead and her "big, healthy placenta" was so oversized that I lost 1250cc from the placental separation ALONE. Do not tell me that's normal and healthy because it's "natural." Bigger isn't always better when it involves your child having a full resuscitation on your kitchen floor, and when you couldn't even walk for days after birth because the blood loss was so severe.

I'm shortly approaching my 5th birth. The last two have been complicated home births with very respectful, very skilled midwives. And the problems really were entirely linked to the fact that I had macrosomic infants who were 10 and 11 lbs at birth. A 10 lb infant might not have been too big for some women in some situations, but it is too big for me and I'd really appreciate if people would stop invalidating my experiences because they don't jive with the idea that birth is a perfectly working system as long as people don't mess with it.

In various venues, I've had it suggested that I was really gestational diabetic and didn't know it (nope.. I even pass the stupid glucose challenge with great results.) I've had it suggested that my shoulder dystocias were somehow my midwife's fault and that she must have made me pushing in the "wrong" position in spite of the fact that my choices were always mine and I always picked what position to give birth in. The latest thing I've heard was that your body won't grow a baby too large for you to safely give birth to IF you aren't having too much growth hormone tainted dairy or meat. Dude... seriously!??! Oh, and BTW for me ditching the very often touted Brewer Diet has resulted in my current baby having an estimated fetal weight that is currently about 4 lbs smaller than my last baby weighed at birth.

There is no inherent morality to a birth complication, and no inherent morality to interventions in the birth process. There is most certainly a moral element to deception, coercion, and a cavalier attitude towards a woman's reproductive life and fertility, and a system that functions that way needs to be fought against. Everyone should be able to agree that avoidable interventions and complications are a good thing to, say, AVOID. But they're not always avoidable, and the last thing women need is another group of people telling them that they are incompetent and incapable as mothers unless they follow the script perfectly.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
Absolutely. The whole point of natural family living is to do what comes instinctively. If a woman has been in labor for many, many hours and instinctively feels she needs an epidural to rest, that needs to be respected If a woman has suffered abuse or another experience that has led to an intense fear of vaginal birth, she should be offered therapy, but should she decide that a c-section is least traumatic and will allow her to better bond/breastfeed/parent, that needs to be respected. If a woman is bullied or feared into a c-section/induction by a doctor who had claimed to be a natural birth advocate, she needs to be included and her birth respected. Last of all, sometimes c-sections are necessary. A natural birth is no good if it kills or damages mom/baby. There needs to be understanding and encouragement.


So well said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think people forget that death is natural too.

Mother nature does not care about you or your child. Yes, in the natural world in order for an entire species to survive, many members of that species need to survive (although obviously for some species, very few do to adulthood).

But mother nature does not care if ONE baby or ONE mother survives. Or if there is damage.

My baby died because we were not able to have a c-section in time for various complicated reasons. There is no question that had we had a section at the critical point, she would have been fine. Instead I watched the very natural process of her oxygen-starved 4 days of life culminating in death.

It was biology at its most dictatorial, really. Natural does not necessarily mean safe or risk-free. People who think that are enjoying a luxury in their experience.

So - basically I think that unless people are ready to return to losing babies at delivery at the same rates that they would die naturally, yes, absolutely there is room for intervention including c-sections.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
there is also an idea that women should "trust their bodies" and that their birth will go as nature intended. the consequences of this can be that when birth does not go well, these women's bodies are failures. i have seen it expressed on here several times that this can cause great amounts of anguish and guilt.

I have also seen this a lot here, and it makes me kind of sad and angry.

I've always seen it as, it is natural for bith to go right, and also natural for birth to go wrong. I had a relatively easy birth, no epidural. It's not because I am better or stronger than anyone-- it's because I had a fairly fast and straight-forward labor, a supportive team, an understanding OB, and a good amount of luck. Luck is the part of birth that always seems to be overlooked-- if you need reminding, look at someone who has done everything "right" and ends up with a homebirth transfer c-section, and then someone who has had an induced labor with epidural while the cervix is high and tight, stays in bed the whole time, and has an easy vaginal delivery with no tears. All of our bodies are built differently and respond differently to childbirth. In the time before c-sections and other things were available, a LARGE number of women and children died in childbirth. There is definitely sometimes a need for "intervention."

For me the idea behind NCB, and behind MDC, is not that you have to birth in this way or that way, but the idea of supporting mothers and encouraging them to inform themselves and take charge of their bodies and their births. Whatever their choices may end up being. The idea is not to subscribe to one method as "best," but to prevent them from being LIED to. And I'll say something else-- OBs can lie to women, Midwives can lie to women, AND natural child birth proponents can lie to women. To me an OB lying to a woman about an intervention that she "needs" but is actually not neccessary, is no worse than a NCB proponent telling a woman "If you do this, this, and this, your body will automatically work and you will have a fantastic birth." That's a lie because NO ONE is GUARANTEED a "perfect birth." No matter how low-risk you are, no matter how much you read, study, and practice, no matter how you plan to birth.

For me it's the same with breastfeeding-- if you can breastfeed, fantastic, your effort and luck paid off. And I think women should be given all the information and support we can give them to help them breastfeed. But if a woman can't breastfeed, for _whatever_ reason, she also needs to be supported, not vilified. Same with c-sections and epidurals.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think people forget that death is natural too.

Mother nature does not care about you or your child. Yes, in the natural world in order for an entire species to survive, many members of that species need to survive (although obviously for some species, very few do to adulthood).

But mother nature does not care if ONE baby or ONE mother survives. Or if there is damage.










This is so true, so often ignored. There seems to be a really pervasive myth in the NCB community that before OBs came along, birth was wonderful and perfect and empowering and blah blah blah. Well, it wasn't. Childbirth was the number one killer of women of childbearing age. And in many developing countries, it still is. Clean water and nutritious food help to an extent, but to try and pin it all on dirty water and crappy food is ridiculous.

Quote:

For me the idea behind NCB, and behind MDC, is not that you have to birth in this way or that way, but the idea of supporting mothers and encouraging them to inform themselves and take charge of their bodies and their births. Whatever their choices may end up being. The idea is not to subscribe to one method as "best," but to prevent them from being LIED to. And I'll say something else-- OBs can lie to women, Midwives can lie to women, AND natural child birth proponents can lie to women. To me an OB lying to a woman about an intervention that she "needs" but is actually not neccessary, is no worse than a NCB proponent telling a woman "If you do this, this, and this, your body will automatically work and you will have a fantastic birth." That's a lie because NO ONE is GUARANTEED a "perfect birth." No matter how low-risk you are, no matter how much you read, study, and practice, no matter how you plan to birth.
Yes, this.

Quote:

There are so many statements that aren't remotely evidence based, and which basically come down to "birth: YOU DID IT WRONG." Intuition isn't scientific. Trusting birth doesn't keep your placenta from abrupting, and not trusting birth won't somehow cause you to encounter a rare and true complication.
Yes. Thank God I gave up on "trusting birth" with my second baby, or she would absolutely be dead. As it was, she's permanently disabled. And while I don't think having a c/s earlier would have completely prevented her brain injury (it likely happened up to a month prior to labor starting), the stress of a 72 hours labor certainly did nothing to help, and likely made it worse. And in theory people say "well of course if there are signs something is wrong, do something, etc" yet the reality that I see is too often, women with serious signs that something is wrong ignore it and "trust birth" and their babies pay the price (and sometimes, the woman herself dies).

Yeah, ideally it should be about education and supporting women to make their own decisions, but I don't think it usually plays out that way. And furthermore, who gets to do the educating? OBs downplay the risks of intervention, while NCB advocates completely overblow them. Just look at some of the recent threads here; if a woman chooses induction, or intervention, or c/s, it's automatically assumed that she was ignorant and uneducated.

I guess I just see a huge disconnect between the philosophy of natural birth and the reality.

Quote:

"But in that choice I had to give up my coveted place in the natural birth community." The bolded is exactly how I've felt, but unable to put so poignantly. Ugh. I am a LLL Leader, and everytime birth comes up, I feel sort of sick.
Yes. When I was planning my HBAC the support was overwhelming. When I wound up with a CBAC, a lot of it went away. I suppose though that I got a "pass" to an extent because my daughter was severely brain damaged and obviously needed a c/s, but I still had to deal with stupid shit about how I must have "manifested" her stroke with negative thoughts, or, my favorite, she "wanted" to be born severely brain damaged and nearly blind.

Then when I was planning a vba2c, again, support was great. Until "they" would discover I was planning it at a hospital, with an OB. Then it was a lot of snarky "well good luck, but you're never going get an vba2c like that."

And I'm *not* in anyway saying that "the other side" doesn't do or say similar things. But the NCB community is the one that purports to have the monopoly on trusting and empowering and supporting women. And that might be true in theory, but in practice, it's bullshit.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 

In fact, reading many of the stories here of women who suffer negative feelings following c-sections, there is usually some variation of the woman saying "I never thought I'd have a c-section, I did everything right to avoid it, but still ended up with one." With home birth and women who plan (actually plan, not just hope for) natural births, few seem to realize that a c-section might be the outcome, even if they do everything perfectly. The shock of the unexpected probably has a lot to do with the trouble coping.
.


Yes, but you can know this, and talk the talk, without really *knowing* it. I was the first person to jump up and say that my HB was safe BECAUSE I had a strong back-up plan and that my midwife's transfer rate of 5% meant that I could very well need to be transferred, but that at that point I would know that I had done everything possible to birth my baby at home. I knew all of these things. As a doula I counseled women in this idea also.

But oh wow, is it ever different to live it. So very deeply humbling. So sad and so uprooting of your entire view of early mothering. The most humbling aspect of becoming a mother is how many things you do *not* have control over. Surrender to motherhood in whatever form it takes is a hard lesson to learn on the very same day you are welcoming your most precious beautiful child into your life. The duality of grieving your birth ideal gone wrong and celebrating your child is a lot to bear, all while recovering from surgery and being up all hours breastfeeding. Now add to that being judged by the same women who were so friendly and encouraging of you days before.

The NBC, IMO, does NOTHING to help this process, as a whole. I have found women who do understand but they are few and far between. Thank god my midwife is an angel who helped me talk it out and spent hours sharing her perspective of events. She is was instrumental in re-framing my thought process.

It's been wonderful to read this thread. Thank you OP for starting it. Very healing to hear everyone else's experiences.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Yes. When I was planning my HBAC the support was overwhelming. When I wound up with a CBAC, a lot of it went away. I suppose though that I got a "pass" to an extent because my daughter was severely brain damaged and obviously needed a c/s, but I still had to deal with stupid shit about how I must have "manifested" her stroke with negative thoughts, or, my favorite, she "wanted" to be born severely brain damaged and nearly blind.

That's outrageous. I can't believe anyone would even think that, much less say it to you. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Yeah, ideally it should be about education and supporting women to make their own decisions, but I don't think it usually plays out that way. And furthermore, who gets to do the educating? OBs downplay the risks of intervention, while NCB advocates completely overblow them.

I agree with this and think it can be a problem, but I don't know any solution. I get really tired a lot because it's like everything you read seems to have a "my way is best" agenda, which is automatically going to cause distrust in the information presented. Again, it is on both sides, but in this I get most disappointed in OBs and the medical community because realistically, the BIG majority of women birth with an OB. And it really upsets me when they are being flat-out lied to or manipulated, and it's not really their fault because they have no reason to not trust a doctor.

I don't know, it's a tough situation, I think that birth in this country is in need of reform. And by "reform" I don't mean "no one should get epidurals," I mean we should have ACTUAL _informed_ consent and more support of mothers. And the situation with VBACs is ridiculous. You shouldn't have to have to choose between trying a VBAC at home, or have an automatic repeat c-section, but it often seems like those are the only two options women have.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Having been a HB doula for 10 years prior to getting pregnant, I had *no* doubt I'd have a blissed out waterbirth in my living room. We even filmed our trial runs and made a blog/documentary about how excited and unafraid we were of our birth.

And then it started... and it was all the huge amounts of pain I knew it would be, but I was so grateful to be doing it. One of the most poignant, and heartbreaking moments of my life came over 60 hours later, after 15 hours of pushing a big headed stuck baby, when I just stood up naked in the tub and grabbed on to my partner's neck and sobbed sobbed sobbed. He knew at that moment what I meant by those cries. My dream of a homebirth was dying. Baby was healthy, I was healthy, but he just simply wasn't being born. Slipping in and out of life and death I felt in the last of those hours of pushing... and I just stood up and made the decision to live. But at that same moment I was giving up the moment I had been dreaming and dreaming about, feeling my boy push out and slide up my body to my breasts. I ached for that sensation my entire pregnancy.

I chose to get a c-section at that moment because I believed 100% his chances and my chances of health and life were stronger with that choice. But in that choice I had to give up my coveted place in the natural birth community. I was so *bitter* about all my friend's homebirths happening in the same few weeks. I was so sensitive to ANY questioning of mothers who had never had c-sections going on and on about how horrible they are.

A year later my scar is so dark and prominent and much higher than any other I've seen. Every day when I look at it I feel slightly less bitter, but it's a long, hard process. My son is worth any ideal being broken, he's worth any pain on my part. If it takes ripping my body to shreds to get this big and beautiful guy out of me, sign me up.

But you're exactly right, OP, it's so hard to see where you fit in the NB community anymore.

Awww, I am so sorry that happened to you !







. You express it very beautifully. This thread is so healing because I feel so much the same as you described and it is so nice to process these feelings with others! It is nice to know that there are many women who ARE natural homebirth natural parenting women- who have birthed their babies from c section.

And I also feel at times jealous of the blissful births around me. But the more I hear others' stories that are similar to mine, the more at peace I feel. I even wondered why there isn't a c section area on MDC- strange, y'know?

there is this thing of c sections and natural parenting being polar opposites but I think that is closing. Yes, that is because the medical system does c sections at the drop of a pin these days. But none the less there are many of us who have them who still have those core non intervention self empowered beliefs. And I think it is good to connect about that.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I live in a pretty crunchy area, and I have to say that for me the biggest part was(and still is) how no one "gets" how insulting it is to insinuate that something is "wrong" with you. It's true I am now way more fragile, my T is an obvious reminder of that, I cannot see it, in fact my scar is barely visible and the T is on the inside. I've had one person who actually understood that, my SIL due to the fact she had a c/s and had to fight for her subsequent 4 VBACs. She knew exactly what I was talking about because she'd been questioned about that exact incision, the chance of rupture from that type of incision is markedly higher than that of a normal bikini incision, it's just too large of a cut. My Dr flat out told me that while most women are candidates for VBAC I was not, due the the severity of the cut. Maybe if I hadn't pushed so much, maybe DD wouldn't have been so far down and wedged. I mean I felt bruising on the left side of my pelvis for a YEAR! That's how stuck she was, ugh.

I have always been fine with my c/s, I never felt like it was the terrible thing that many women feel like it is, maybe that is because I did labor, labor for me sucked. Like I said before I was PUKING my guts out with every contraction(which is like being torn in two), I felt terrible, it was at times excruciating. My intuition did tell me that things were going wrong, I mean I felt my uterus go soft, it was a very weird surreal experience. My stomach just went soft, it was very pretty scary-that moment I just knew that it was time, thankfully I was where I was and DD was out in a half an hour.

Honestly I never felt anything badly about it until that comment by the local midwife and here on MDC.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LemonPie* 
I have mainstream friends who have had c-sections and rave about how wonderful they were and insist that if I ever have another one that a scheduled section doesn't hurt as much as an emergency section.

Okay. This is slightly OT, but I'm sick to death of this one. _In general_, I believe that scheduled sections are easier on the mom than emergency/emergent sections are. In my case, my initial recoveries with all three scheduled sections were easier than my initial recoveries with either emergency section. (I'll mention, though, taht with my first, they kept me doped up - first morphine, then sleeping pills - for over 12 hours post-op, _then_ kept me on a fluids only diet for 3.5 days, so I was utterly exhausted. With my other one, I'd had almost two weeks of pretty intense prodromal labour, followed by about two days of hard labour, plus some kind of infection, plus my son had died - so, yeah - it was hell - not sure how much of that was actually the surgery, yk?)

However, my long-term recoveries have been the _worst_ with my three scheduled ones. With dd1, I ended up with incision pain that lasted for 7-8 _months_. With ds2, my incision became infected (skin layer only, thankfully) and didn't close for almost two months. I experienced numbness throughout my pelvis and abdomen that never did completely go away (ds2 is almost five). I still can't feel my bladder properly, and for about 8 months, I couldn't feel my clitoris.

With dd2 - my last, and by far the "easiest" of my sections - the numbness has increased again. It's not as bad as it was immediately after I had ds2, but it's worse than it was before my last surgery. She's only 10 months, so I'm semi-hopeful that this won't be permanent. But, it sucks.

Scheduled c-sections are still major surgery, and just because you (using the general "you", not referring to anyone in particular here) had a better, or even good, experience with one (or more) doesn't mean that's always going to be the case.

Okay- off my soapbox to read the rest of the thread.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
And I'm *not* in anyway saying that "the other side" doesn't do or say similar things. But the NCB community is the one that purports to have the monopoly on trusting and empowering and supporting women.

So does the OB community. They claim to be all about "healthy moms and healthy babies" and it's a crock.

Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.

I disagree with this completely, at least IME. In my hospital I never felt like they didn't care, even when I was faced with not having my Dr who was there for my entire prenatals there. I knew that it was a possibility she wouldn't be there, she had a family emergency come up right before my due date. In all honestly the attending Dr was more caring and wonderful, she is also a pediatrician, so maybe that is why. Her colleague was an amazing soft spoken Dr, he plainly asked how long I'd pushed and felt how high DD was and said we need to get her out now. They never seemed callous or uncaring, maybe that is the fact with many places, but I NEVER felt like that.

I felt so good with them that I chose to have the same team help bring my son into this world, I would do it again if I were to have more children, but I'm not. I just don't feel like everyone in the medical field is a bunch of uncaring a**holes, sure they are out there, but you can say that about anything.

Stormbride-I'm sorry that you feel so angry, I just don't believe that it is all bad, I fully believe you have had bad experiences and for that I am sorry.









I'm not trying to pretty things up, in all honesty my experiences with both my c/s's were good, it was the comments made to me after the fact that pissed me off.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I disagree with this completely, at least IME. In my hospital I never felt like they didn't care, even when I was faced with not having my Dr who was there for my entire prenatals there. I knew that it was a possibility she wouldn't be there, she had a family emergency come up right before my due date. In all honestly the attending Dr was more caring and wonderful, she is also a pediatrician, so maybe that is why. Her colleague was an amazing soft spoken Dr, he plainly asked how long I'd pushed and felt how high DD was and said we need to get her out now. They never seemed callous or uncaring, maybe that is the fact with many places, but I NEVER felt like that.

I felt so good with them that I chose to have the same team help bring my son into this world, I would do it again if I were to have more children, but I'm not. I just don't feel like everyone in the medical field is a bunch of uncaring a**holes, sure they are out there, but you can say that about anything.

Stormbride-I'm sorry that you feel so angry, I just don't believe that it is all bad, I fully believe you have had bad experiences and for that I am sorry.









I'm not trying to pretty things up, in all honesty my experiences with both my c/s's were good, it was the comments made to me after the fact that pissed me off.


Thank you for this. I want nothing more in life than to be a midwife. I have visions of myself 15 years down the road, catching babies in tubs at 3 am, sitting on the bed next to a client while I measure her belly. Helping her latch right after the baby is born. You know what though? I'm not going to be a midwife. I'm working my butt off in school, and I start studying for the MCAT this winter. If there is any possible way I am smart enough, I will become an Ob/Gyn. I'm becoming a doctor because I want to be a midwife, so that I can be *that* amazing doctor who we hear about, like the doctors you had.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I disagree with this completely, at least IME. In my hospital I never felt like they didn't care, even when I was faced with not having my Dr who was there for my entire prenatals there. I knew that it was a possibility she wouldn't be there, she had a family emergency come up right before my due date. In all honestly the attending Dr was more caring and wonderful, she is also a pediatrician, so maybe that is why. Her colleague was an amazing soft spoken Dr, he plainly asked how long I'd pushed and felt how high DD was and said we need to get her out now. They never seemed callous or uncaring, maybe that is the fact with many places, but I NEVER felt like that.

I felt so good with them that I chose to have the same team help bring my son into this world, I would do it again if I were to have more children, but I'm not. I just don't feel like everyone in the medical field is a bunch of uncaring a**holes, sure they are out there, but you can say that about anything.

Stormbride-I'm sorry that you feel so angry, I just don't believe that it is all bad, I fully believe you have had bad experiences and for that I am sorry.









I'm not trying to pretty things up, in all honesty my experiences with both my c/s's were good, it was the comments made to me after the fact that pissed me off.

I agree with you, too. I am so sad for women who don't feel this way, though, it's heartbreaking to feel like your care providers don't actually care.

One of the aspects that helped me tremendously to cope was the feeling that the whole team, from the OB to the nurse's assistant, cared about me and my baby and our safety and well-being. They truly wanted what was best for us.

Good, caring OBs do exist. Painting them all with the same brush (as evil, lying, disinterested, money-hungry, what have you) is totally unfair.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So does the OB community. They claim to be all about "healthy moms and healthy babies" and it's a crock.

Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.

I have to say I've experienced it both ways. My first delivery with my daughter was truly insanely bad - I would say not caring is pretty accurate - and the way I was treated afterwards was terrible. I would honestly rather give birth in the middle of a road at rush hour than go back to that hospital and team.

My second was the absolute opposite. I had amazing prenatal care and support. My OB - a crusty white old guy btw - really worked with me and my feelings to arrive to a place where I could attempt a vaginal delivery ("If we can avoid major abdominal surgery, we should. I really want you to tell me what you would need to attempt a vaginal delivery. But it will be an option for you all along.")

He was not there for delivery but had left extremely clear instructions. The nurses, both pre-natal and L&D, were caring and kind and professional and gave me as much choice and room as possible. The delivering OB didn't quite get why I was so freaked out (mostly because no one who hadn't read the first delivery chart ever believed me on the first pass of my story) but she stuck with me and got me through what ended up being a very quick delivery.

So there really are good teams out there and I am so sorry you didn't have one.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I disagree with this completely, at least IME. In my hospital I never felt like they didn't care, even when I was faced with not having my Dr who was there for my entire prenatals there. I knew that it was a possibility she wouldn't be there, she had a family emergency come up right before my due date. In all honestly the attending Dr was more caring and wonderful, she is also a pediatrician, so maybe that is why. Her colleague was an amazing soft spoken Dr, he plainly asked how long I'd pushed and felt how high DD was and said we need to get her out now. They never seemed callous or uncaring, maybe that is the fact with many places, but I NEVER felt like that.

I felt so good with them that I chose to have the same team help bring my son into this world, I would do it again if I were to have more children, but I'm not. I just don't feel like everyone in the medical field is a bunch of uncaring a**holes, sure they are out there, but you can say that about anything.

Stormbride-I'm sorry that you feel so angry, I just don't believe that it is all bad, I fully believe you have had bad experiences and for that I am sorry.









I'm not trying to pretty things up, in all honesty my experiences with both my c/s's were good, it was the comments made to me after the fact that pissed me off.

I never said it was all bad, or anything about _everybody_ in the medical field. I said you have pretty good chance of it. You do.

I've had one good nurse every time. And, everybody treated me quite decently after Aaron (in most ways - there are a few exceptions, probably because I was an evil HBAmC'er). The staff were mostly really good after dd2, as well. It would be nice if all expectant mothers got the treatment that mothers get after a loss, honestly.

There are good people in the trenches. The system, imo, doesn't care. And, a lot of people who aren't bad people also have priorities that have little or nothing to do with the health of the mother or baby...especially the mother. That's not "all" of them...but that doens't mean it's not a lot of them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay - I just read the rest of the comments.

Where did I say that good care providers don't exist? Where did I say that _all_ medical professionals are disinterested in the mother and baby?

You're all replying to comments I _did not make_. If you don't believe there's a good chance of getting a professional who doesn't care about you, that's fine. But, there is. If there weren't a good chance of it, you wouldn't hear so many stories of abusive and negligent "care" providers. "A pretty good chance you'll get" is _not_ the same as "you're guaranteed to get".

I _will_ say that I've either been _insanely_ unfortunate, or have different standards for my "birth" team than many. People can have good intentions and still not actually give a crap about you. My GP didn't...and she's the one who was suffering insomnia, because she was so worried about me. She cared about the one risk factor that concerned _her_...and not at all about the things that concerned _me_.

Marylizah: "They truly wanted what was best for us." In some ways, those ones are the worst, because ime, they also tend to be the ones who feel that their definition of "best for us" is the only one that matters.

FWIW, I've had four different OBs do my surgeries. There's only one of them that I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid if I saw her in public. And, I have some suspicion that if I'd been seeing her for a VBAmC, instead of signing up for another cut, I wouldn't have liked her half as well as I did (although still considerably better than any of the others).


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

I am weeping with joy that this thread has been posted and am so grateful for the truthful & respectful conversation that's happening here. And I can relate to so much of what's been said.

Here's another thing I've been thinking about: how grief can affect our experiences giving birth. In my case, I was given up for adoption immediately following my own birth, placed in the care of nuns for 3 weeks before being adopted. 28 years later, the mother who raised me and to whom I had a very close & loving relationship died of ovarian cancer.

Both of these experiences are sources of very deep grief for me, that I carry in my body. It is not the kind of grief that one "gets over" or that therapy, spiritual support, or "positive" life experiences can completely do away with. This grief is part of who I am, and I have an evolving relationship with it, which I've explored intimately through many years of therapy, art making, etc. It hasn't stopped me from being a productive citizen or forming close relationships or wanting to be a mother myself, but it has made some things more intense & harder than they might otherwise have been, including the decision to become a mother myself.

I believe that deep-seated grief--not just the feelings, but the actual changes it has caused in my body--was one of many factors that contributed to my c-section, but more pointedly, has influenced my journey of healing from my own experience giving birth. I was a complete mess for for basically a year after my daughter was born. The trauma of delivery, followed by months of sleep deprivation & a 12-week breast infection, was enough to bring all my old grief to the surface as if I had never "worked through" it before. I didn't realize how successfully I had coped with my grief and loss until all my coping mechanisms were stripped away and I was a raw as, well, the day I was born. Things are much better now; the fact that I can post something on this forum actually feels like a huge step forward.

In my recovery from c-section and my journey becoming a mother, I've needed as much help fitting this new experience into my life story as I've needed help with the physical & emotional recovery. I know that I'm resilient (as are all human beings!) and that I can find a way to integrate this difficult & transformative experience into who I am. And the medical world isn't going to help me with that part of things...and I'm not sure if NBC is equipped for it either. Still searching...


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So does the OB community. They claim to be all about "healthy moms and healthy babies" and it's a crock.

Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. At all. I'm genuinely sorry that that's been your experience, but it hasn't been mine, and it hasn't been the experience of most of the people I know. Out of 3 hospital births, including a HB transfer with a severely injured baby and a 2 week NICU stay, I had a grand total of one shitty nurse and one rude OB. Everyone else was fantastic. It's not *THE* truth, it's YOUR truth based on YOUR experience.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I guess I just disagree with the statement, sure you didn't say everybody, but the tone of the statement is the odds are you'll get someone who doesn't care. I just don't believe that most providers are uncaring, many yes, most no. IME, the providers I know are kind and do care, maybe that's due to where I live. My provider for DS who was the attending Dr for my DD's birth-did/does care. She teared up when the corner of my placenta lifted causing bleeding when I was 16 weeks along. She was in fact scared for me and my baby, and no one can tell me differently-I'm the one who saw her face.

I mean for me the most callous statement came from someone who is supposed to be soooooo supportive of mothers, but in reality she hurt me more than the the c/s actually did.

For me I guess I just don't harbor a bunch of negative feelings about this, I know for myself that the birth of my children was a small portion of the life I lead with them. I just can't dwell on the ways things could, should, would have been-this is how they are and I am at peace with it.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

a bit on intuition as i see it...

often, people think that intuition is detailed. i do not think that this is usually the case. sometimes, intuition is crystal clear-- "your placenta is abrupting, go to the hospital." but most of the time, it's something like "something feels off" and then a symptom shows up (crazy bleeding for example), adn then we go "ok! time to get help!"

i find that most *people* have at least this experience of intuition--the "something doesn't feel right" part or the "this feels right" part. it may not have any details at all.

the use of intuition is also a relevant topic, i think.

for me, it's not just about intuition alone, but at the end of the day, it is a part of the decision making process. that is, it's about trusting yourself to make the right decision for yourself, rather than relying on someone else to make that decision for you. Some people will do whatever their chosen authority says--doctor says X, so i do X. pastor says X, so i do X.

but, most people will trust themselves over anyone else. trusting themselves is a good thing. it is something that i value highly. and certainly, i trust myself over any other outside authority, because only I can know the full context of my experience. it is, in a sense, making yourself your own authority.

so, the individual is taking in a *lot* of information. analytical information such as studies, information from texts, experts in various fields, and so on. that person is also taking in the opinions and ideas of others. and, the person has his or her own personal experience. and, this person is integrating information in his/her own way. and then ultimately, making choices based on all of that information.

i believe that only the individual can know what is right and best for him or her, and i believe that ultimately, if a person trusts themselves, then they are utilizing intuition at some level. so for me, the term is used quite broadly.

------

i also think it is important to speak about the "moral question." and the "trusting birth/bodies" situation.

others have mentioned that it is not a moral issue to have complications. i absolutely agree.

the landscape of birth is vast--from pleasurable, uncomplicated births to extremely complicated births that end in injury or death. that is a massive diversity.

no one birth is "right" and another "wrong." it is simply what birth is. birth is *all* of these things. and, no one knows who will be on one end of the spectrum or who will be on the other. this is part of the "risk" of birth.

i believe that we understand that, by becoming pregnant, we are accepting this risk. we are accepting that our births can be complicated, could require extreme interventions, and even with all of that (or without it), could end in our deaths or the deaths of our children. but we are willing to take that risk because of the possibility of the reward--a healthy child and mother.

the reality is that birth is unpredictable. we cannot know what is the best course of action for this or that mother prior to her pregnancy. all we can do is support her in her process of seeking information and choosing what is right and best for her out of all of the options available.

and if it does go to a natural, albeit a-worst-fear extreme, for a woman, then we can also be hear to hold her in our hearts and offer--as best we can--the support she needs to heal from the experience.

but the body isn't broken or nor did the mother fail. it was simply that birth is unpredictable, and that she required help.

and there's nothing at all wrong in asking for and receiving help.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm terrified of a c-section. I'm terrified of any surgery, but if I needed one for my baby or me, I'd have one and I wouldn't look back. I'm pregnant with my third and knowing patterns of babies generally being bigger than the last and how freaking huge I am already, I have to say, I'm pretty scared about my body and my endurance.

I've played animal midwife a million times and that's about as natural as it gets (well, without the humans, but no medicine, no epidurals, no monitors etc.). A lot of the times, you end up with a dead baby (and sometimes a dead mother), unless you can get a vet there asap. It's not the same as women of course, but it taught me that delivery sometimes does need some serious assistance.

One of my dearest friends who is about as conventional and mainstream as they come when it comes to medicine had a necessary c-section. Anyone examining her other views, would probably determine that it was less than necessary, but without giving her whole birth story away, it was indeed very necessary and so I am very careful not to judge moms and avoid people who would. It's not an example I want to set for my kids anyhow.

I really feel bad for moms who have had c-sections and somehow feel like failures. I have my own failure feelings over my hormones and breastfeeding and I know how awful they are. I wouldn't wish it on anyone and truly hope folks can work past those feelings as hard as that is to do. I think it's part of my job to support other mothers. I don't know why, maybe because I'm a social worker. It just takes way too much energy to be negative about people's choices or situations that I have no control over, as opposed to helping, supporting or just befriending them.


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## redvlagrl (Dec 2, 2009)

Thank you so much for this thread. It's fascinating reading.

We had planned a homebirth for DD, but I ended up with a c section due to ROM, wait 24 hrs and then a failed induction. I did all the 'right' things - I had a mw, trusted my body etc. I thought I was educated on unessecary cesareans and that it wouldn't happen to me. BUT when you have an OB (I had a me as my caregiver, but there was a transfer for the induction) who says "I'm offering you a c section" and you say "are there any other options" and he says "no", what are you going to do?

It's all very well and good to say that you should question the OB etc, but when you're actually faced with it you believe the OB knows more than you so you go along with it.

DD did not latch for 5 long, long weeks (though we are still BFing now at 18 mths) and I cried for a year every time I thought about her c section.

Now we are planning a haspital VBAC and I really hope it turns out. It's very difficult watching all your friends plan and having beautiful homebirths while you just dare to hope for a hospital VBAC.

There is so much judgement in the natural birthing community that I feel obliged to say "our homebirth turned c section" when I mention our first. Surely natural family living should also mean inclusion.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

there are some very powerful and important stories here that i really wanted to acknowledge. thank you for sharing those stories.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I guess I just disagree with the statement, sure you didn't say everybody, but the tone of the statement is the odds are you'll get someone who doesn't care. I just don't believe that most providers are uncaring, many yes, most no. IME, the providers I know are kind and do care, maybe that's due to where I live. My provider for DS who was the attending Dr for my DD's birth-did/does care. She teared up when the corner of my placenta lifted causing bleeding when I was 16 weeks along. She was in fact scared for me and my baby, and no one can tell me differently-I'm the one who saw her face.

I have different standards, I'm pretty sure. Tearing up over something like that would prove nothingn to me...nothing at all. The OB who did my 2nd and 3rd sections (and I will never understand why I went back to him, and forgiving myself for it has been a long, hard road) would have been very upset by something like that, as well.

Quote:

For me I guess I just don't harbor a bunch of negative feelings about this, I know for myself that the birth of my children was a small portion of the life I lead with them. I just can't dwell on the ways things could, should, would have been-this is how they are and I am at peace with it.
I'm glad that's your truth. The fact that I can't take my kids out without being afraid of pissing myself, because of the incredibly poor condition of my entire pelvis isn't a small part of the life I lead with them. The fact that I'm in pain all the time, because of the poor condition of my "core" (and I don't mean the pregnancy stuff...I mean the stuff that's a direct result of having next to no feeling in the area) isn't a small part, either.

In any case, it sounds like you actually needed a c-section and possibly even consented to it. Maybe if my history was like that, I'd feel the same way. Knowing full well that if you hadn't consented, there's a good chance they'd have gone in _anyway_, I'm...cynical.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have different standards, I'm pretty sure. Tearing up over something like that would prove nothingn to me...nothing at all. The OB who did my 2nd and 3rd sections (and I will never understand why I went back to him, and forgiving myself for it has been a long, hard road) would have been very upset by something like that, as well.

what could a care provider have done for you to show you that they cared? i'm curious as it seems that what others have experienced as genuine concern and compassion for a patient don't seem to be caring actions for you?

...I mean the stuff that's a direct result of having next to no feeling in the area) isn't a small part, either.

i think what she was trying to emphasize was that there is only moving forward. the past is done. focusing on how things would be or could be different are not going to change the life you have now. at the same time, _i_ could see how that sort of personal trauma could be a motivating factor to make things better for other women. having to deal with it daily in the form of continued pain and numbness is a daily reminder of what your body has been through.

In any case, it sounds like you actually needed a c-section and possibly even consented to it. Maybe if my history was like that, I'd feel the same way. Knowing full well that if you hadn't consented, there's a good chance they'd have gone in _anyway_, I'm...cynical.

i'm not sure i understand this last portion though? could you clarify this a little further? sorry, i have more but my dd is WAY past bedtime!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
what could a care provider have done for you to show you that they cared? i'm curious as it seems that what others have experienced as genuine concern and compassion for a patient don't seem to be caring actions for you?

Part of what I'm talking about when I mention getting a provider who doesn't give a crap about you is about what they _do_, not what they feel. If my doctor pushes me into something he/she knows full well I don't want, because _they_ think it's "prudent", then all their concern and compassion isn't worth crap. One of the doctors who pushed me into my third section was so worried about me that it was affecting her sleep. So what? She still did her level best to push me into something that was causing me nightmares, and ended up causing me long-term physical damage. What the heck difference does it make to me if she was "concerned" or even if she "teared up" when we couldn't find dd2's heartbeat at 14 weeks? Great. She's upset. She gets the "warm hearted doctor" medal. Nice for her. She's over it...but her actions have left a lifelong mark on me, for all her "concern". It's not worth spit. Talk is cheap.

Quote:

i think what she was trying to emphasize was that there is only moving forward. the past is done. focusing on how things would be or could be different are not going to change the life you have now. at the same time, _i_ could see how that sort of personal trauma could be a motivating factor to make things better for other women. having to deal with it daily in the form of continued pain and numbness is a daily reminder of what your body has been through.
Yup. And, it makes me more than a little hesitant to buy the party line about "healthy moms and healthy babies". Great - you got my child out, and I'm still alive. If that's your definition of "healthy", then I've had good care. If your definition of "healthy" involves actual _health_, then...not so much.

Quote:

i'm not sure i understand this last portion though? could you clarify this a little further? sorry, i have more but my dd is WAY past bedtime!!
The last part was a reference to the fact that, in 1993, I was told I was having a c-section. I said (well shouted, actually), "No - I don't want a c-section" multiple times. I was completely ignored, and they cut me, anyway. Women who have consented to c-sections don't know if they'd have been in my shoes or not, just as I have no idea what my reaction to everything would have been if I'd actually said "yes" to my first one. Maybe I'd be more inclined to believe my best interests were on someone's radar if they ever _had_ been.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - I just read the rest of the comments.

Where did I say that good care providers don't exist? Where did I say that _all_ medical professionals are disinterested in the mother and baby?

...

Marylizah: "They truly wanted what was best for us." In some ways, those ones are the worst, because ime, they also tend to be the ones who feel that their definition of "best for us" is the only one that matters.


Nobody on the thread said "all" OBs are bad. But it seems to me that in the NBC there's a huge distrust of medical professionals (and given the rate of unnecessary interventions, we all know why that mistrust exists). But the truth remains that not all of them, not even most if them are uncaring. And then when a NCB educated woman undergoes an intervention during bith, it's assumed or implied that she was "had", that she got duped into something unnecessary. And your comment to me about how to define what is best is a good example of that. They did what *they* thought/defined as best-- the implication being that it might not *really* have been the best for me or for my baby. So was I duped, or taken advantage of? I'll say it again: I knew in my bones that I needed a c-section. I was relieved and grateful when the decision was made.

My grief over the section comes mostly from the fact that the epidural didn't work and I was put under and therefore DH and I both missed our son's birth. I also grieve because my experience pretty closely mirrored what happened to my mom when I was born, although with one major improvement: my son wasn't left alone in the nursery for 12+ hours. Instead, he was placed, still steaming, on my husband's bare chest until I woke up-- then he was placed on me. My healing began at that moment-- when I smelled him and felt his warm weight on me. Alive. Safe.

Storm Bride, I am so sorry you've had such horrible birthing experiences. I can understand why you feel the way you do, even though I don't agree with some of your perspectives.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.

I don't think this is helpful, or possibly even accurate. "That's the truth" is a big statement to make based on just one person's experience. The truth of my experience is very different:

My first pregnancy was with twins, who had heart conditions (tumors), who started out high-risk because I had been taking typhoid and malaria pills AND because there were initial concerns that they were monoamniotic. In addition, a genetic disorder was suspected. I went into pre-term labor at 6 months, then went past my due date (40 weeks). If ever there was a high-risk pregnancy, I had one. NSTs, ultrasounds, you name it. But you know what? The neonatologist AND my OB were 100% behind my birth plan and our wishes for a natural birth. And they did everything they could to make it happen.

Some OBs, some teams, some hospital staffs (really...I got to know a whole mess of people during THAT pregnancy) ARE amazing. Things didn't "go well" from the start of that pregnancy onward, and I was high risk before I was even 7 weeks along. The OBs and other doctors didn't push for interventions, they didn't disrespect my birth choices...they used their medical expertise to gather evidence that supported my ability to birth our sons naturally. They listened to me and we had respectful, back-and-forth conversations about risk, choices, and interventions.

I was terrified that one of my children would die. Much more terrified of that than of a c-section, though of course I didn't want a c-section, and my OB knew that. Everyone knew that. Everyone also knew that my husband and I were terrified because of the health of our babies. NO ONE ever played the health card, or the death card, or even a "possible harm" card...no one ever pushed for a c-section, or meds, or interventions.

In the end, it was a natural birth (a beautiful one!)...of overdue twins with heart conditions, and one BREECH. Our OB was such a guide, such an amazing soul and comfort to us during those traumatic, worrisome months, that we named one of our sons after him. And he's not the only amazing doctor, supportive doctor, I met in that pregnancy--he was one of many. To have that many things going wrong, and to have not. one. doctor. play up the fear, but rather to reinforce our ability and belief in natural birth--that's my experience.

I think we do people a great disservice by generalizing about OBs in negative ways. OB or midwife, you can still get stuck with a rotten example of what the profession should be.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

One of the troubling themes emerging in this thread is how many women feel cut off from communities of support following their c-section.

When the natural birthing community prescribes a narrow range of acceptable birth practices and then discounts the experiences of women who don't fit that "norm," it becomes exactly like the system that it claims to oppose.

We c/s mamas need to hold high expectations for the natural birthing community. It is not enough to plead for "understanding", like beggars at the feast. We belong at the table. If the natural birthing movement wishes to make any claim for representing women's authenticity, then our voices are a necessary part of the chorus.

When the movement's ideals harden into rigidity & arrogance, we can bring much needed humility into the conversation.

When the movement tells us what we "should" do, think, or feel, we can say, "Stop. Listen. Don't judge."

When our community circles tighten and start to push people out, we can remember to open the embrace.

Where the natural birthing movement ostracizes c/s mamas and discounts our experiences, it does so at its peril. The *only* way to be a healthy community and a force for real, positive change in the world is to make space where we can listen, learn, and grow. We can't do that if only one way is the "right" way!

The true measure of a movement is not how loudly it applauds its heroes. It's how deeply it touches each person who steps onto its path.

OK, that's my manifesto!!!


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
One of the troubling themes emerging in this thread is how many women feel cut off from communities of support following their c-section.

When the natural birthing community prescribes a narrow range of acceptable birth practices and then discounts the experiences of women who don't fit that "norm," it becomes exactly like the system that it claims to oppose.

We c/s mamas need to hold high expectations for the natural birthing community. It is not enough to plead for "understanding", like beggars at the feast. We belong at the table. If the natural birthing movement wishes to make any claim for representing women's authenticity, then our voices are a necessary part of the chorus.

When the movement's ideals harden into rigidity & arrogance, we can bring much needed humility into the conversation.

When the movement tells us what we "should" do, think, or feel, we can say, "Stop. Listen. Don't judge."

When our community circles tighten and start to push people out, we can remember to open the embrace.

Where the natural birthing movement ostracizes c/s mamas and discounts our experiences, it does so at its peril. The *only* way to be a healthy community and a force for real, positive change in the world is to make space where we can listen, learn, and grow. We can't do that if only one way is the "right" way!

The true measure of a movement is not how loudly it applauds its heroes. It's how deeply it touches each person who steps onto its path.

OK, that's my manifesto!!!

























i think that is what i've been coming too in my own mind as well.

there are a LOT of women on this thread that feel that they've "lost their place" in the natural birth community and that they don't belong.

THIS exact reason is why i asked at the beginning of the thread if it was more important to support natural birth or mothers? i notice no one on this thread has suggested that natural birth (ie non-surgical birth) is more important, but in the day to day experiences in the community MOTHERS ARE BEING TREATED THIS WAY!

i'd like to do something within the mothering community to address this issue?
i wonder if mdc would consider publishing something that addresses how c-section mothers fit into the community? something that is NOT just about, as Marylizah put it, how they've been duped by doctors but something that encompasses the range of experiences that can lead to the birth of a baby.

i think i'll start a thread in suggestions. does anyone else have any other ideas as to how this can be addressed?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Nobody on the thread said "all" OBs are bad. But it seems to me that in the NBC there's a huge distrust of medical professionals (and given the rate of unnecessary interventions, we all know why that mistrust exists). But the truth remains that not all of them, not even most if them are uncaring. And then when a NCB educated woman undergoes an intervention during bith, it's assumed or implied that she was "had", that she got duped into something unnecessary. And your comment to me about how to define what is best is a good example of that. They did what *they* thought/defined as best-- the implication being that it might not *really* have been the best for me or for my baby. So was I duped, or taken advantage of? I'll say it again: I knew in my bones that I needed a c-section. I was relieved and grateful when the decision was made.

I'm not talking about your situation, specifically. I'm saying that a care provider wanting what's best for the expectant mothers doesn't necessarily mean they'll actually do what's best. They'll do what _they_ think is best. That may or may _be_ best.

Quote:

My grief over the section comes mostly from the fact that the epidural didn't work and I was put under and therefore DH and I both missed our son's birth. I also grieve because my experience pretty closely mirrored what happened to my mom when I was born, although with one major improvement: my son wasn't left alone in the nursery for 12+ hours. Instead, he was placed, still steaming, on my husband's bare chest until I woke up-- then he was placed on me. My healing began at that moment-- when I smelled him and felt his warm weight on me. Alive. Safe.

Storm Bride, I am so sorry you've had such horrible birthing experiences. I can understand why you feel the way you do, even though I don't agree with some of your perspectives.
I'm used to people not sharing my perspectives, so no worries there. Personally, I _much_ prefer to have my sections under general anesthesia, as I find being conscious for them almost literally more than I can bear. I know general is worse for the baby, and dh can't be there with his baby, but if I were the only one affected, I'd choose general every time (not that I _have_ that choice, because "what's best for me" is determined by...the doctor...again).


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

coming back to read the entire thread (sorry at work!) but I just wanted to say to the OP this is one of the reasons I am becoming a doula (I've had 2, with one as a failed vbac) and a huge advocate of my local c/s support group.

This is a wonderful thread and I'm looking forward to finish reading it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedOakMomma* 
I don't think this is helpful, or possibly even accurate. "That's the truth" is a big statement to make based on just one person's experience. The truth of my experience is very different:

My first pregnancy was with twins, who had heart conditions (tumors), who started out high-risk because I had been taking typhoid and malaria pills AND because there were initial concerns that they were monoamniotic. In addition, a genetic disorder was suspected. I went into pre-term labor at 6 months, then went past my due date (40 weeks). If ever there was a high-risk pregnancy, I had one. NSTs, ultrasounds, you name it. But you know what? The neonatologist AND my OB were 100% behind my birth plan and our wishes for a natural birth. And they did everything they could to make it happen.

What does your experience have to do with whether or not people have a _good chance_ of getting a provider who doesn't care about them?? That's like me saying that women never consent to their c-sections, because I didn't!

*I never said that all care providers are anything. I said we have a pretty good chance of getting a care provider who doesn't give a crap. That does NOT mean that it always happens or happens to everybody.*

Quote:

Some OBs, some teams, some hospital staffs (really...I got to know a whole mess of people during THAT pregnancy) ARE amazing. Things didn't "go well" from the start of that pregnancy onward, and I was high risk before I was even 7 weeks along. The OBs and other doctors didn't push for interventions, they didn't disrespect my birth choices...they used their medical expertise to gather evidence that supported my ability to birth our sons naturally. They listened to me and we had respectful, back-and-forth conversations about risk, choices, and interventions.

I was terrified that one of my children would die. Much more terrified of that than of a c-section, though of course I didn't want a c-section, and my OB knew that. Everyone knew that. Everyone also knew that my husband and I were terrified because of the health of our babies. NO ONE ever played the health card, or the death card, or even a "possible harm" card...no one ever pushed for a c-section, or meds, or interventions.

In the end, it was a natural birth (a beautiful one!)...of overdue twins with heart conditions, and one BREECH. Our OB was such a guide, such an amazing soul and comfort to us during those traumatic, worrisome months, that we named one of our sons after him. And he's not the only amazing doctor, supportive doctor, I met in that pregnancy--he was one of many. To have that many things going wrong, and to have not. one. doctor. play up the fear, but rather to reinforce our ability and belief in natural birth--that's my experience.
Awesome. You had a great experience. Therefore, there are only a few rotten apples, and the _huge_ numbers of women who have been disrespected, ignored, talked down to, bullied, etc. just don't exist. Or...maybe they _do_ exist, and there's a _pretty good chance_ that any given pregnant woman might meet one?

Quote:

I think we do people a great disservice by generalizing about OBs in negative ways. OB or midwife, you can still get stuck with a rotten example of what the profession should be.
I'd like to point out that I never said anything about OB's. I spoke specifically about care providers, because I was actually making the point that there are plenty of arrogant, crappy ones in _both_ models of care.

So - does anybody have any counter to "there's a pretty good chance" that something will happen other than "it didn't happen to me"? No one person's experience means _anything_ with respect to how often things go the other way.

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, but in this thread, I've had an awful lot of responses to something _I did not say_.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i'd like to address this so that everyone feels heard and this thread remains unheated.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So does the OB community. They claim to be all about "healthy moms and healthy babies" and it's a crock.

Bottom line is, if you're pregnant, and things don't go well, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who _does not care about you or your baby_. That's the truth. We can pretty it up all we want - and I understand why we do - but the chances are pretty good that's what's going to happen.

at the beginning of this post is where you specifically referenced OBs and it was in response to someone stating that they felt the nbc often did a disservice to women by their attitudes.

i realize that later in the post you said, "someone who does not care about you" but coming after the ob criticism i can see how it would be interpreted as saying something about obs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What does your experience have to do with whether or not people have a _good chance_ of getting a provider who doesn't care about them?? That's like me saying that women never consent to their c-sections, because I didn't!

someone's positive experience with their team (midwife or ob) is relevant because it is a counter point to the idea above that "you have a pretty good chance of ending up with someone that doesn't care about you or your baby". i think a more effective statement may have been something like, "you could end up with someone that doesn't care about you or your baby like i did" with the caveat that by "care" you mean someone that _specifically_ does not listen to you as a mother.

i think women are saying that their providers cared for them because it was true in their situation and to say that most care providers do.not.care. about mamas or babies is to discount and marginalize their experiences.

which, i think, is something that is a source of great pain for you.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

In reading this thread, it is apparent that the problem is the same every time we try to have this conversation: anyone who did not experience the exact same thing as a previous poster feels compelled to come on and say, "You're wrong! You don't speak for me! Stop making me feel bad!" It comes down to everyone taking everything personally when it was never intended to be personal.

Like Storm Bride - she didn't call out anyone in particular - she wasn't talking about YOU - but people take it personally and attack her.

I suspect it is b/c people who had c-sections feel marginalized on a forum DEVOTED TO NATURAL PARENTING. And I can see why. But the fact remains that this particular space on the internet is about advocating for all things natural parenting. In advocating this, people may say things like (this list is not exhaustive and is just a few examples):

-Choosing your HCP carefully can lower your chance of c-section.
-Avoiding induction can lower your chance of c-section.
-9/10/11 lb babies can be birthed vaginally.

In making these statements, we are advocating to a world that thinks that all babies must be born in a hospital, elective inductions are fine, and any baby over 8 lbs must be born surgically. We all know that none of these things are always true - but in advocating for all women to have the right to labor and birth without unnecessary interventions, it is important for us to confront the myths rampant in our society.

So YOU in particular may have chosen your HCP carefully and still had a c-section. Or you may have needed an induction and had a c-section. Or your 9 lb baby may indeed have been to big to birth vaginally. NO ONE is calling you out and questioning your birth. If reading about ways to advocate for natural birth or increase your odds of a natural birth upsets you, and makes you feel like a failure, then maybe reading these sorts of threads is not the best thing for you.

But the fact remains that in general, there are things that can be done by women and their HCPs to increase their chances for a natural birth. There is no guarantee of a natural birth and a healthy baby in any birth, ever. We are just talking about the statistical risks. And this is a really important conversation to have so that all women, not just those who read Henci Goer, can have a better chance at a natural birth. We need to be able to educate women about the risks that choice of HCP/induction/etc. can bring.

So, I have to beg everyone - is it possible to have a conversation about how to discuss this, without everyone who had a c-section taking it personally and derailing the thread? I cannot find one single example in this thread of anyone's particular birth choices being questioned - but I am quite sure that more than a few people will read my general examples of birth education above, take issue with them, and tell their birth stories as an example of how I am wrong. I beg you not to - there are always exceptions to everything - you didn't do anything wrong - emergencies happen - but we need to be able to talk about ways to increase your chance of a natural birth without it always turning into people's feelings being hurt, personal attacks, and threads being closed.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i think women are saying that their providers cared for them because it was true in their situation and to say that most care providers do.not.care. about mamas or babies is to discount and marginalize their experiences.

But is it, really? I think if the topic were not birth, which is an emotional experience no matter how it happens, then b/c one person says "this happens often" it doesn't mean that she is out to discount or marginalize others' experiences. In fact, I might say that everyone here who is telling stories of loving their HCP is actually discounting and marginalizing all the awful experiences I have had with various HCPs. But I wouldn't say that. B/c we can have different experiences and we can share them without it being a personal attack against those who did not share our experience.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i'd like to address this so that everyone feels heard and this thread remains unheated.









at the beginning of this post is where you specifically referenced OBs and it was in response to someone stating that they felt the nbc often did a disservice to women by their attitudes.

i realize that later in the post you said, "someone who does not care about you" but coming after the ob criticism i can see how it would be interpreted as saying something about obs.

Yes - but I started off saying "so does" the OB community...in response to someone's comment about the natural birth community. I was adding the obestrical community to the mix, not elminating the other.

Quote:

someone's positive experience with their team (midwife or ob) is relevant because it is a counter point to the idea above that "you have a pretty good chance of ending up with someone that doesn't care about you or your baby". i think a more effective statement may have been something like, "you could end up with someone that doesn't care about you or your baby like i did" with the caveat that by "care" you mean someone that _specifically_ does not listen to you as a mother.

i think women are saying that their providers cared for them because it was true in their situation and to say that most care providers do.not.care. about mamas or babies is to discount and marginalize their experiences.

which, i think, is something that is a source of great pain for you.
Okay. "Most" does not equal "all" and saying "most" (which I didn't!) has nothing to do with anyone's experience with any given provider/team.

I'm out. We're having two different conversations.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 























i think that is what i've been coming too in my own mind as well.

there are a LOT of women on this thread that feel that they've "lost their place" in the natural birth community and that they don't belong.

THIS exact reason is why i asked at the beginning of the thread if it was more important to support natural birth or mothers? i notice no one on this thread has suggested that natural birth (ie non-surgical birth) is more important, but in the day to day experiences in the community MOTHERS ARE BEING TREATED THIS WAY!

i'd like to do something within the mothering community to address this issue?
i wonder if mdc would consider publishing something that addresses how c-section mothers fit into the community? something that is NOT just about, as Marylizah put it, how they've been duped by doctors but something that encompasses the range of experiences that can lead to the birth of a baby.

i think i'll start a thread in suggestions. does anyone else have any other ideas as to how this can be addressed?


Suggestions - I wonder how many communities have c-section support groups? I am surprised that here on MDC we don't have one, as I think many mothers go through a whole range of emotions many of which we do not need judgement upon, but instead support and open ears.

I haven't looked at any post-partum training for doulas - but this seems like "duh" area to start, much like seeing signs of PPD, grappling with the emotions of birth, especially if it ended in c-section seem like a logical place where support could be easily implemented.

Where I am stumped is how to open the minds of the NBC that because you've had a c-section you are not somekind of 2nd class citizen and that all of us have so much to contribute to the greater celebration of life, birth, and motherhood!


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
So, I have to beg everyone - is it possible to have a conversation about how to discuss this, without everyone who had a c-section taking it personally and derailing the thread? I cannot find one single example in this thread of anyone's particular birth choices being questioned - but I am quite sure that more than a few people will read my general examples of birth education above, take issue with them, and tell their birth stories as an example of how I am wrong. I beg you not to - there are always exceptions to everything - you didn't do anything wrong - emergencies happen - but we need to be able to talk about ways to increase your chance of a natural birth without it always turning into people's feelings being hurt, personal attacks, and threads being closed.

i'd really like to keep this thread open as well as i feel there are so many important stories and feelings being shared here.

to address the above: i started this thread in an attempt to move beyond "how to avoid a c-section" into "how are mothers that have had c-sections included in the natural birth community?".

there are really two very different issues and what i think you'll find in reading the stories is that many women here are feeling disenfranchised and second-best because they needed a surgical birth. i don't think it's really necessary in this particular thread to bring up ways that women could avoid c-sections. there are lots of mothers here who well-educated about their birth choices.

i'm more interested in moving beyond the issues of education and more into the areas of healing and acceptance.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
But is it, really? I think if the topic were not birth, which is an emotional experience no matter how it happens, then b/c one person says "this happens often" it doesn't mean that she is out to discount or marginalize others' experiences. In fact, I might say that everyone here who is telling stories of loving their HCP is actually discounting and marginalizing all the awful experiences I have had with various HCPs. But I wouldn't say that. B/c we can have different experiences and we can share them without it being a personal attack against those who did not share our experience.

i believe that if the phrase, "that is the truth," had not been used about something subjective such as "caring" then the issue would not have arisen. i believe that there is room for both caring and uncaring HCPs in this discussion. i also feel that "caring" should be clarified and explored perhaps. we can see that there are different definitions of caring and that may not be the most effective way of approaching this aspect of the discussion.

personally, i feel that the women here posting about their caring and positive experiences with HCPs are yet again feeling that they have to justify that their surgical birth did not happen because they did something wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yes - but I started off saying "so does" the OB community...in response to someone's comment about the natural birth community. I was adding the obestrical community to the mix, not elminating the other.

i can see that now. i was only trying to point out where the misunderstanding occurred in an effort to clarify the conversation. it seemed that people were attributing something to you that you did not say and i was trying to show where that potential confusion had happened.

Okay. "Most" does not equal "all" and saying "most" (which I didn't!) has nothing to do with anyone's experience with any given provider/team.

I'm out. We're having two different conversations.

i'm sorry to see you go.







i think i clarified above what i felt the issues were in that area of the discussion and i feel that there could be a lot more productive discussion regarding other aspects of this topic.


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_ktg_* 
Suggestions - I wonder how many communities have c-section support groups? I am surprised that here on MDC we don't have one, as I think many mothers go through a whole range of emotions many of which we do not need judgement upon, but instead support and open ears.

I haven't looked at any post-partum training for doulas - but this seems like "duh" area to start, much like seeing signs of PPD, grappling with the emotions of birth, especially if it ended in c-section seem like a logical place where support could be easily implemented.

Where I am stumped is how to open the minds of the NBC that because you've had a c-section you are not some kind of 2nd class citizen and that all of us have so much to contribute to the greater celebration of life, birth, and motherhood!

i really think a c-section support section would be a very welcome addition to mdc. as i said in the previous post, i'm interested in moving _beyond_ the education for a natural birth and it seems like a forum dedicated to _support_ would accomplish that. i'd like for it not to be in "healing birth trauma" because i think there are plenty of examples in this thread where the birth wasn't necessarily traumatic but that the lack of acceptance by the ncb community has been.

i know that what we do irl can also make a difference and the stories i've read here of women becoming doulas and ob/gyns as a way to make that difference are really inspiring.

this is really exciting! i am going to post this in questions and suggestions. i will link that thread here if anyone is interested in adding their voice.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Storm Bride,







, I'm not saying my experience can say anything generalized about women and their experiences, but (and I say this gently), I don't think your individual experience can say there's "a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby." I agree with the person who posted before me last time..."I am so sorry you've had such horrible birthing experiences. I can understand why you feel the way you do, even though I don't agree with some of your perspectives."

I'm not telling my story because I feel marginalized. I tell it because I want to speak up and share...because as a first time mom, reading some of the posts here on MDC (or comments in the NBC), you might hear so many slights against medical/OB care that you think a hospital means an automatic c-section, or even a traumatic birth. I've been in four due date clubs now and I've seen it, at various levels, every time. Many first time moms are afraid of OBs or hospital care because, in NBCs, they don't hear the positive stories. I'm happy to share mine, because in my experience of birthing I've met some pretty incredible doctors.

Storm Bride, I'm not looking to say that your experience doesn't happen, or that mine is more typical. I'm just saying that our own experiences are all we have to go on. I don't think our own experiences can determine what a random high-risk, natural-birth-minded woman "has a pretty good chance" of experiencing. Statistics will tell you that, but individuals' stories will not. Granted, based on our experiences, we're likely to have a more optimistic or more pessimistic view of the entire process. I get that. But that's personal opinion, not actual likelihood.

As for the original intent of the thread, I agree with the very first response (which is buried way, way back there). I think KaylaBeanie put it really well, and I think a great many people here have taken it even further. Is there a way NB advocates can include c-section moms? Absolutely. And they should. I think a lot of people in this thread have come to share their experiences, all over the spectrum of births, providers, and emotions...in a way that says we should ALL be included. All of our experiences should be respected and supported, because I think we all want similar things for women and for birth--regardless of what our own births were like. "Getting" a natural birth is not all about educating ourselves, or about our HCPs...it's also about chance. Marginalizing a group of women who had circumstances out of their control, or a poor HCP, but still wanted a natural birth or believe in it? What's the point in hurting or excluding people like that? It's not right.

I shared my experience to argue against the "That's the truth" statement, but also because I think it's great, a page or so back, that there was a post from a woman who is studying to be an OB so she can be an example of what the profession should be.







I shared my story in the hopes of encouraging her, or others, or first-time moms, or first-time hospital birthers in finding/being an OB that really _gets_ it, and respects a mother's right to be a part of the decision-making.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

double post.

i've submitted my thread to questions and suggestions. i will link to it if it is approved.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i really think a c-section support section would be a very welcome addition to mdc.

I agree, but for years members have asked - and it's not happened b/c c-sections aren't natural. I guess they consider it similar to a sub-forum on formula feeding, I dunno. If someone were to start a thread asking for one, if it were approved, maybe we could get a clearer answer as to why it won't be considered. But, yes - it would be nice to have a safe place to ask questions, work through emotions, share experiences, heal, etc., w/o others jumping in with stats or anti-cesarean info that wasn't asked for.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
in advocating for all women to have the right to labor and birth without *unnecessary interventions*, it is important for us to *confront the myths* rampant in our society.

But you see, my experience was not a myth. And the lack of necessary intervention resulted in death. When you use language like that - unnecessary, myth - you are necessarily creating a conflict.

I know it is possible to discuss these things in less inflammatory terms, because I had a team that did just that. And what they did was they said "we want to help you have the safest, best delivery possible however things go, and less is more."

It would not take anything away from your argument to say, "how can we help L&D teams and women to engage in *good decision making* every time?" without assuming that it's all bad decision making out there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
NO ONE is calling you out and questioning your birth. If reading about ways to advocate for natural birth or increase your odds of a natural birth upsets you, and makes you feel like a failure, then maybe reading these sorts of threads is not the best thing for you.

Okay, this is what gets me mad.

The NBC does not "just happen" to have threads that some crazy women out there find make them feel like a failure. The NBC expresses itself in a way that creates hurt feelings. A lot of women have said that directly in the last two threads I've read on this -- a start would be not treating them like they are necessarily the only communication problem.

Also...sometimes it is personal. I believe you yourself posted a thread commenting directly on someone's FB post. That women would not be _overly sensitive_ to have thought you were pretty much holding her birth experience up as a failure. There are a lot of assumptions about people who schedule c-sections made here that I've seen. Whereas you just don't know what their stories are.

The thing is do you want to just reach people who are pristine as the driven snow and have never experienced necessary interventions and who have no feelings whatsoever in the matter?

Or would you care to invite those of us who do have feelings and negative experiences into your circle? Because I could have really used the NBC's support in going for my second delivery, but I couldn't stick a toe in a forum like this one because when it's all "C SECTIONS ARE BAD BAD BAD" and my child _died_ because an inexperienced team bought into that... well, you've lost me. And my sister. And my best friend.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
But the fact remains that in general, there are things that can be done by women and their HCPs to increase their chances for a natural birth. There is no guarantee of a natural birth and a healthy baby in any birth, ever. We are just talking about the statistical risks. And this is a really important conversation to have so that all women, not just those who read Henci Goer, can have a better chance at a natural birth. We need to be able to educate women about the risks that choice of HCP/induction/etc. can bring.

I think as long as you are educating about ALL the risks, then I'm with you. But I don't often see that happening here. I see it as rebellion against the mean old medical establishment without always a whole lot of actual discussion of real statistics and real risk and so on.

(Although I do think that in all cases you are NEVER talking "just" about statistical risk; you are talking about real women and real babies. Just as Stormbride's point that for her "survival" was not the only relevant measure of her health is an extremely important one.)

Where are the stories about the actual risks of natural delivery? Of delays at transfer? of rates of cerebral palsy? Because if those stories were here too, then we could have a real discussion about why people might need intervention TOO, and then there would not be a binary sense of:

1) Natural = good
2) Intervention = bad

Because that is what becomes pretty shaming.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I beg you not to - there are always exceptions to everything - you didn't do anything wrong - emergencies happen - but we need to be able to talk about ways to increase your chance of a natural birth without it always turning into people's feelings being hurt, personal attacks, and threads being closed.

I don't think we do need to talk about "ways to increase *your* chance of a natural birth."

I think that statement, in fact, sums my problem with these threads up. The thing is, there are women who will have situations where they should NOT increase their chance of a natural birth because it is not going to work that way for them. There just are.

It's like saying "everyone should eat whole wheat." Well not if you have a wheat allergy!

What everyone should do is be informed about good nutrition and have whole foods available. It's an important distinction. But when you set the formula up as "good natural delivery vs. bad intervention" you are missing the complexities of women and babies' real, complex experiences.


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedOakMomma* 
Storm Bride,







, I'm not saying my experience can say anything generalized about women and their experiences, but (and I say this gently), I don't think your individual experience can say there's "a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby." I agree with the person who posted before me last time..."I am so sorry you've had such horrible birthing experiences. I can understand why you feel the way you do, even though I don't agree with some of your perspectives."

I'm not telling my story because I feel marginalized. I tell it because I want to speak up and share...because as a first time mom, reading some of the posts here on MDC (or comments in the NBC), you might hear so many slights against medical/OB care that you think a hospital means an automatic c-section, or even a traumatic birth. I've been in four due date clubs now and I've seen it, at various levels, every time. Many first time moms are afraid of OBs or hospital care because, in NBC, they don't hear the positive stories. I'm happy to share mine, because in my experience of birthing I've met some pretty incredible doctors.

Storm Bride, I'm not looking to say that your experience doesn't happen, or that mine is more typical. I'm just saying that our own experiences are all we have to go on. I don't think our own experiences can determine what a random woman "has a pretty good chance" of experiencing. Statistics will tell you that, but individuals' stories will not. Granted, based on our experiences, we're likely to have a more optimistic or more pessimistic view of the entire process. I get that. But that's personal opinion, not actual likelihood.

As for the original intent of the thread, I agree with the very first response (which is buried way, way back there). I think KaylaBeanie put it really well, and I think a great many people here have taken it even further. Is there a way NB advocates can include c-section moms? Absolutely. And they should. I think a lot of people in this thread have come to share their experiences, all over the spectrum of births, providers, and emotions...in a way that says we should ALL be included. All of our experiences should be respected and supported, because I think we all want similar things for women and for birth--regardless of what our own births were like. "Getting" a natural birth is not all about educating ourselves, or about our HCPs...it's also about chance. Marginalizing a group of women who had circumstances out of their control, or a poor HCP, but still wanted a natural birth or believe in it? What's the point in hurting or excluding people like that? It's not right.

I shared my experience to argue against the "That's the truth" statement, but also because I think it's great, a page or so back, that there was a post from a woman who is studying to be an OB so she can be an example of what the profession should be.







I shared my story in the hopes of encouraging her, or others, or first-time moms, or first-time hospital birthers in finding/being an OB that really _gets_ it, and respects a mother's right to be a part of the decision-making.

thank you so much for this well thought out response.

and thank you again to all the women that have shared here about their stories. i feel really grateful to have been able to listen and share with you.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have different standards, I'm pretty sure. Tearing up over something like that would prove nothing to me...nothing at all......

In any case, it sounds like you actually needed a c-section and possibly even consented to it. Maybe if my history was like that, I'd feel the same way. Knowing full well that if you hadn't consented, there's a good chance they'd have gone in _anyway_, I'm...cynical.

I did consent to my c/s....after 30 hours of labor, 3 of that pushing only to wedge my DD so far into my pelvis that she was so stuck they had to push her both up and out, yep I did consent whole-heartedly. My husband and I spoke deeply about it before my labor and both of us agreed that if it came down to it a c/s would be done, it was in my birth plan as the last resort. After a long and futile labor it was pretty obvious that was what was needed, it was after every other option had been exhausted.

Yes I think we do have different standards.....I'm sorry but I do know that my particular Dr does care, I wouldn't have gone to her or take my children to her if she didn't. For me someone showing emotion is a sign they do in fact care.....maybe I'm naive







.

My experiences are just that _mine_, of course they will be different than someone else's.

I personally think that it would be nice to have some support for mothers who have had a C/S on MDC, unfortunately though I don't see that happening.

Playamama-thanks for starting this thread, it has been an awakening for myself. I realize that there are women who indeed haven't been as fortunate to be in a caring environment, my little hospital is a gem I am finding out. I am very happy to have had the wonderful care that my children and I received there.


----------



## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I agree, but for years members have asked - and it's not happened b/c c-sections aren't natural. I guess they consider it similar to a sub-forum on formula feeding, I dunno. If someone were to start a thread asking for one, if it were approved, maybe we could get a clearer answer as to why it won't be considered. But, yes - it would be nice to have a safe place to ask questions, work through emotions, share experiences, heal, etc., w/o others jumping in with stats or anti-cesarean info that wasn't asked for.

The first line I think is the stumbling block - c-section is not natural therefore cannot be supported aka dismissed within MDC. Yet we find day in and day out families who are trying to live within the natural lifestyle but having to deal with "life" and all its craziness and circumstance. Through the various threads I've popped into and read, I see people struggling with what has been established as the "bar" for natural living and what life has thrown at them and the fear of being ostracized by their decisions which might not have been the natural lifestyle option, but averted serious harm, or danger like not raising your child because they would be in daycare & not breastfed, or having such traumatic guilt or fear over a c-section that was medically necessary for the mother's life or the child's life.

Drummer - I like your vision of an area that's safe for us who have had c-sections. That's what I exactly what I had in mind, it would be needing put out very clear guidelines like other very hot button forums and it would need very strong moderator(s)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay - I said I was done, but this one just...ugh...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I did consent to my c/s....after 30 hours of labor, 3 of that pushing only to wedge my DD so far into my pelvis that she was so stuck they had to push her both up and out, yep I did consent whole-heartedly. My husband and I spoke deeply about it before my labor and both of us agreed that if it came down to it a c/s would be done, it was in my birth plan as the last resort. After a long and futile labor it was pretty obvious that was what was needed, it was after every other option had been exhausted.

Okay. That's fine. I didn't ask why you gave consent, because it doesn't matter to me. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that you think I'm making some kind of judgement of the fact that you consented. I'm not. A c-section was the best decision for you at that time. It was the best decision for me last June. I have _no problem_ with someone consenting to a c-section.

My point was that I have no faith that your refusal, had you made one, would have mattered, if a doctor had already determined that a c-section was in your best interests. I was making no judgment about a woman giving consent.

Quote:

Yes I think we do have different standards.....I'm sorry but I do know that my particular Dr does care, I wouldn't have gone to her or take my children to her if she didn't. For me someone showing emotion is a sign they do in fact care.....maybe I'm naive







.
I never said that your doctor doesn't care. I said that the fact that she teared up over your placenta proves nothing, one way or the other.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

I don't think we do need to talk about "ways to increase *your* chance of a natural birth."

I think that statement, in fact, sums my problem with these threads up. The thing is, there are women who will have situations where they should NOT increase their chance of a natural birth because it is not going to work that way for them. There just are.

It's like saying "everyone should eat whole wheat." Well not if you have a wheat allergy!

What everyone should do is be informed about good nutrition and have whole foods available. It's an important distinction. But when you set the formula up as "good natural delivery vs. bad intervention" you are missing the complexities of women and babies' real, complex experiences.

I completely disagree. Do you really think that we should not talk about ways to decrease c-section risk? Really? REALLY?

Is this thread not full of women who are upset that they ended up needing a c-section? If there are some here, then doesn't it stand to reason that there are other women out there who also want to know what they can do to minimize their risk of a c-section? So why should we not talk about the best way to reduce the risk? How else are women to learn about the best ways to try to get the birth they want?

There are always other experiences - no one advocates that the c-section rate be 0%. There are women and babies who would be dead if it weren't for c-sections. But that doesn't mean that we should not try to spread the word of ways to reduce your risk. And yet when we do, then someone always has to take it as a personal attack. There are ways to reduce your risk. But biology is not predictable and they are not a guarantee. All you can do is reduce your risk. You can "do everything right" and not end up with the vaginal birth of your dreams. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't help people try.

I NEVER said "should." I NEVER said everyone should have a natural birth or should even want a natural birth. But many people do want a natural birth, and for many of them, they cannot simply trust their HCP to assist them in this. I am guessing that this is what Storm Bride was getting at - many HCPs will nod and smile when you say that you want a natural birth, but in the end, they will not do what is necessary to help you achieve it. The sad reality is that we have to take responsibility for our own education and choices, b/c the c-section rate continues to rise, not drop. And to that end, we need to be able to talk about ways to lower your risk so that people can make choices that help them achieve the birth they want.

I see no shaming here. And as for the FB reference - my OP in that closed thread was not clear and I was editing as it was closed - but I never attacked a woman for her c-section. What happened was that I was commenting on an article about how to succeed at bfing by trying to minimize birth trauma, and I talked about how bfing was easier after my HB compared to my hospital births. And another woman had to jump in to start justifying her c-sections. And that was my frustration - that whenever we try to talk about ways to help women get the births they want, then everyone who had a c-section takes it personally and feels attacked.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
to address the above: i started this thread in an attempt to move beyond "how to avoid a c-section" into "how are mothers that have had c-sections included in the natural birth community?".

there are really two very different issues and what i think you'll find in reading the stories is that many women here are feeling disenfranchised and second-best because they needed a surgical birth. i don't think it's really necessary in this particular thread to bring up ways that women could avoid c-sections. there are lots of mothers here who well-educated about their birth choices.

i'm more interested in moving beyond the issues of education and more into the areas of healing and acceptance.


I was not trying to educate here - I just brought those up as examples of things that you will hear every day in the NCB community. And my intention was to address your OP - the NCB community is about advocating NCB. And if women who have had c-sections want to be included in the NCB community, then they need to accept that there is going to be a lot of discussion about how to educate women about the risks in childbirth, and that some of this discussion may make them feel bad. It may make them feel attacked in that they somehow did something wrong. And that is simply not the case.

Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedOakMomma* 
Storm Bride,







, I'm not saying my experience can say anything generalized about women and their experiences, but (and I say this gently), I don't think your individual experience can say there's "a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby."

I get the impression that she is not just referencing her personal experience, but the prevainling gist of stories both here on MDC, and in the wider birthing community. Yes, your description balances hers but by no means discounts it.

I shared my experience to argue against the "That's the truth" statement, but also because I think it's great, a page or so back, that there was a post from a woman who is studying to be an OB so she can be an example of what the profession should be.







I shared my story in the hopes of encouraging her, or others, or first-time moms, or first-time hospital birthers in finding/being an OB that really _gets_ it, and respects a mother's right to be a part of the decision-making.
OK, and how does one go about finding that OB? I moved while pregnant so total met about 5 OBs while preggers/birthing and none of them inspired me with much confidence. The one who attended my birth wanted to section me as soon as I arrived at the hospital. I had only been in labor at that point for three hours! I think it wise to remember that most women have limited choices when selecting a caregiver. Often you just get whomever is on call. Not everyone is able to have any sort of relationship with their OB..

I agree with the feeling of marginalization on MDC towards those who have had c-sections. I think it sucks. I also don't think my son's birth was all that traumatic, so that forum doesn't work for me. And frankly, assuming that all c-section mommies should want to post there is a judgment in itself y'know? So Hooray for a C-section support group! While we are at it can we put language in the user agreement against disparaging women who have had one? I also don't enjoy being told that there was no way I could have bonded with my baby; I did something wrong; yadda yadda yadda...


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I completely disagree. Do you really think that we should not talk about ways to decrease c-section risk? Really? REALLY?

Is this thread not full of women who are upset that they ended up needing a c-section? If there are some here, then doesn't it stand to reason that there are other women out there who also want to know what they can do to minimize their risk of a c-section? So why should we not talk about the best way to reduce the risk? How else are women to learn about the best ways to try to get the birth they want?

Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.

My version of a "failed" natural birth is where *decisions are made incorrectly* which seriously impact on the child's or mother's health. Not every c-section qualifies for that, nor does every non-intervention.

I do find it mildly offensive that a woman's whole experience for the best birth is supposed to boil down to "avoid a c-section at any cost." That was my position on my first delivery as well, and the thing is - there are worse things than a c-section, like a dead or severely handicapped child.

There is no reason to focus on ONE potential lifesaving procedure as the worst-case "bad birth" scenario.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I NEVER said "should." I NEVER said everyone should have a natural birth or should even want a natural birth. But many people do want a natural birth, and for many of them, they cannot simply trust their HCP to assist them in this. I am guessing that this is what Storm Bride was getting at - many HCPs will nod and smile when you say that you want a natural birth, *but in the end, they will not do what is necessary to help you achieve it.* The sad reality is that we have to take responsibility for our own education and choices, b/c the c-section rate continues to rise, not drop. And to that end, we need to be able to talk about ways to lower your risk so that people can make choices that help them *achieve the birth they want.*

I think it's really _nice_ to think that avoiding a c-section is all about a little encouragement or that HCPs "won't do" what is necessary. But I don't think the real world on-the-ground decisions _usually_ work out that way.

At this point I really want to ask you about your background, because my experience with HCPs is that they are totally able to support natural birth until they _believe_ an intervention is necessary. That's not a question of not doing what's "necessary." It's a difference in the definition of necessary.

When we talk about a cascade of intervention, I don't feel shamed or blamed. But when we focus simply on c-sections, I find it annoying. It's missing the point. Interventions are just interventions. The question is *when*.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I see no shaming here. And as for the FB reference - my OP in that closed thread was not clear and I was editing as it was closed - but I never attacked a woman for her c-section. What happened was that I was commenting on an article about how to succeed at bfing by trying to minimize birth trauma, and I talked about how bfing was easier after my HB compared to my hospital births. And another woman had to jump in to start justifying her c-sections. And that was my frustration - that whenever we try to talk about ways to help women get the births they want, then everyone who had a c-section takes it personally and feels attacked.

Y'know, it's funny but I feel a bit like I've read people say over and over "I was made to feel like I could no longer be a part of the NCB because I had a necessary intervention".

Maybe the NCB (whatever that is







) could actually _listen_ to actual women about how it would _help_ them to discuss *birth intervention decision making* rather than simply demonizing procedures or saying "it shouldn't be shaming for me to express myself this way." In other words, if women KEEP RESPONDING to the way you are expressing yourself in similar ways, they may not be the issue.

If your goal is to empower women then a good place to start is by listening to them.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I was not trying to educate here - I just brought those up as examples of things that you will hear every day in the NCB community. And my intention was to address your OP - the NCB community is about advocating NCB. And if women who have had c-sections want to be included in the NCB community, then they need to accept that there is going to be a lot of discussion about how to educate women about the risks in childbirth, and that some of this discussion may make them feel bad. It may make them feel attacked in that they somehow did something wrong. And that is simply not the case.

Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.

Um, c-section mamas are already included in the NBC. That is why it is important for others to tread with this knowledge y'know? Its not like we are chomping at the bit to have another section, so most attempts at education should not offend. Its more like we are the ultimate reality check...sometimes you can have your heart in the right place,and be very educated as to NB and still end up with a section. It happens.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I see no shaming here.

Yes, this is kind of the crux of the issue. There are those who cannot see or do not recognize shaming in the natural birth community, and yet there are all these women who *feel* shamed, ostracized, cut-off, disenfranchised, etc by the NBC when they have c-sections.

I think what we're trying to do here is get past the place of mutual "you don't get it" speak.

And I agree with PP that listening...truly listening to what is being said...is a great place to begin.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.

it could also be the delivery of the information.

i'm NOT, nor is any other mother on this thread, suggesting that we forgo education in regards to decreasing c-section rates. if anything, i think that most mothers on here are very supportive of that.

the point that i'm trying to make is that, there are ways in which the delivery of such information is not often tempered with a caveat that it may not work nor an acceptance that a c-section may be the best choice in a situation. as guildjenn pointed out, the balance of information is missing, and i think this does a disservice to _everyone_ that comes here to research and to those that need c-sections.

it leads to the ideal that if you just do such and such then your birth will be wonderful and when those things don't work then you are left with negative feelings and met with suspicion from others about where you made the wrong choice.

what i've seen expressed is that it would be nice to have a supportive place *within* the natural birth community to address this.

if i might ask you to address this, does this seem like a valid goal to you?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.

I think that some of the "education" perhaps goes past laying out numbers and evidence-based practices and debunking non-evidence based OB practice, and moves towards magical thinking and a belief in the ability to control birth that is just as hubris-filled as any OB, though.

Honestly, so much of the marginalizing of women who had sections comes from people who have listened to the message "You CAN prevent an unnecessary C-section through planning and education," and have taken away the oversimplified message "You can prevent ANY c-section through good living and following this checklist." It's a natural desire, to want to assert control, to believe that there is something we can do to direct our ultimate destinies.

But it often leads to intensive questioning of "What did you do WRONG?" of women who come back to their DDCs after sections.

There may be some grudging acceptance that SOME sections are necessary, but that, in turn, leads to questioning of whether a specific person's specific section was one of the necessary ones. Again, at some level this is a natural outcome of this magical thinking. Every woman who comes back to the DDC after a section puts that magical belief in the ability to control the universe into question.

I, personally, believe that there is plenty in life that is out of our direct control. I do not believe that bad things come to people because they manifest them, or that positive thoughts are enough to keep bad things away. The thought that life sometimes just throws crap at you is a scary thought - but that's what birth does - you can prepare for it, you can be educated about what it involves, biologically, hormonally, psychologically, emotionally -- but we're not machines, and there is no perfect understanding that will lead to perfect birth if every rule is followed perfectly.


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## louis (Sep 5, 2008)

I will preface this by saying I have never given birth and am pregnant with my first child, so this is where my perspective is coming from.

I will just say it: IMO, c-sections are not included as part of the NCB framework because they are not natural. This includes those that are necessary. That does not make them any less valid of experiences and the result of a safe and healthy mother and baby should always be the ultimate goal.

I find it interesting that so many previous posters have come on here to voice their own experiences of their c-sections and their great providers as examples of why c-sections should be included into the ncb framework. However, these same posters are indicating that the c-section was not the desired method for bringing their child into this world. I don't think there are many women out there who planned a natural birth and ended up with a c-section who now feel that c-section is the only way. I believe I have read of many women who have experienced a c-section who still believe that natural birth is the desirable choice for the process.

There is also reference to moving forward in natural parenting. I think this is the split. There is a difference between natural childbirth and natural parenting.

There are also many references to people feeling marginalized or disenfranchised in threads on MDC, just because they had a c-section. I, myself, have not seen threads where someone is criticized for having had a necessary c-section. I have seen threads where people apologize to others for their interventions and/or c-section. I feel this is a natural emotion as someone who does believe in natural childbirth. I mourn and grieve for the loss of the desired birth, but can also rejoice in the outcome of healthy child, despite the way it made it into the world. I will never celebrate a c-section, though I can appreciate their life-saving place in the world.

Sorry for my ramble but that is how I see it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
the point that i'm trying to make is that, there are ways in which the delivery of such information is not often tempered with a caveat that it may not work nor an acceptance that a c-section may be the best choice in a situation. as guildjenn pointed out, the balance of information is missing, and i think this does a disservice to _everyone_ that comes here to research and to those that need c-sections.

it leads to the ideal that if you just do such and such then your birth will be wonderful and when those things don't work then you are left with negative feelings and met with suspicion from others about where you made the wrong choice.


I'm editing to respond to this statement. I consider myself a rational person. I have read a ton of information on MDC. I have read about rrl tea, going past 41 weeks, EPO, acupressure, chiropractic, etc etc etc. I do not however, feel that there is a magic routine which will produce magic results. To do so would be naive. I believe I have seen time and time again a focus on education. Know why things are being done and understand the possible alternatives.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
I will just say it: IMO, c-sections are not included as part of the NCB framework because they are not natural. This includes those that are necessary. That does not make them any less valid of experiences and the result of a safe and healthy mother and baby should always be the ultimate goal.

Scissors aren't natural either, nor is sterilization, but women who use scissors and sterilize stuff are still welcome in the NCB community. How about a rubber blow-up birthing pool? Does that qualify?

I think for me when I think about what a natural birth is for me, it's not _starting_ interventions just because that's "what's done" or you want your baby on the 25th because there's a wedding - that's not natural. It's about keeping our biological and emotional needs at the fore.

But for human beings to throw the tools they have at saving lives - to me that's pretty natural.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Hey, and NICU's aren't natural - yet there is a place here to get support if you end up having a preemie or sick baby. And just like pre-term labor happens, c-sections happen. You can do all the right things, and be the biggest believer in natural childbirth and less than ideal things obviously can and do happen.

I think that's the thing - there seems to be people who haven't quite grasped that all the education in the world isn't going to change the fact that c-sections happen - and many of those truly are necessary. Yes, informed mothers and caring HCP's is an important aspect - so by all means, don't give up your quest for NCB advocacy - but there are times when women just want to be heard, and truly listened to, without the extra information that can in fact feel attacking or judgemental.


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## louis (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Scissors aren't natural either, nor is sterilization, but women who use scissors and sterilize stuff are still welcome in the NCB community. How about a rubber blow-up birthing pool? Does that qualify?

I think for me when I think about what a natural birth is for me, it's not _starting_ interventions just because that's "what's done" or you want your baby on the 25th because there's a wedding - that's not natural. It's about keeping our biological and emotional needs at the fore.

But for human beings to throw the tools they have at saving lives - to me that's pretty natural.

We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.


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## louis (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Hey, and NICU's aren't natural - yet there is a place here to get support if you end up having a preemie or sick baby. And just like pre-term labor happens, c-sections happen. You can do all the right things, and be the biggest believer in natural childbirth and less than ideal things obviously can and do happen.

I think that's the thing - there seems to be people who haven't quite grasped that all the education in the world isn't going to change the fact that c-sections happen - and many of those truly are necessary. Yes, informed mothers and caring HCP's is an important aspect - so by all means, don't give up your quest for NCB advocacy - but there are times when women just want to be heard, and truly listened to, without the extra information that can in fact feel attacking or judgemental.


I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.

I will never attack or judge someone who despite their desire for a natural birth, ended up with a c-section. My only wish is that there is first that desire.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

But, this website isn't technically a natural childbirth website, at least not exclusively. It's natural family living. The tagline says, "Inspiring natural families since 1976". It doesn't say "The gathering-place for women who birth naturally since 1976." If it did, there would undoubtedly be no room for a woman who had had a c-section. But plenty of women are committed to the idea of natural family living and have had, necessarily or unnecessarily, c-sections.

Television isn't natural, but there's a forum for it here.

Anyway, this is part of what I struggle with in the natural community. It's the sort of purity check-list mentality. Vaginal birth? No interventions? Cloth diapers? Organic food? No vaxes? TF diet? Wearing your baby 23.5 horus a day? GD? Unless you check all or most of the boxes, you don't get to belong, or you feel ashamed and embarrassed by your choices (or what life has imposed on you, depending...) And if you don't manage the vaginal birth or the breastfeeding, you are DEFINITELY marginalized. You have to justify, explain, apologize. It's assumed you were given bad info, manipulated, lied to. Perhaps this is true, perhaps not. It's not fun, though, to be pitied and treated as "less than".

I *am* defensive about having had a c-section. I am defensive because the overwhelming belief here is that c-section, as GuildJenn said, is the WORST possible outcome. It's not. Really, really not.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I get the impression that she is not just referencing her personal experience, but the prevainling gist of stories both here on MDC, and in the wider birthing community. Yes, your description balances hers but by no means discounts it.

I was never trying to discount her personal experience







. Please see my above post. I was trying to say that personal experiences, or gists, are not enough to say "that is the truth" or to tell a mother that "she a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby."

Also, I think MDC is not a great place to survey for people who have positive things to say about hospitals, hospital births, or OBs. In general, it's not "in with the club" to talk up those things here. With my first birth, back in '02 (I had a different member name then), it was actually something people felt they had to talk about in special threads...something that a lot of people only felt comfortable revealing in their due date groups, but not to the rest of the MDC community. You'll get a lot of "hear hear!"s when you slam the medical establishment here at MDC, but not a whole lot when you say you appreciated the medical establishment. That's gotten better in the past 9 years, but it's still there. Just as the NBC has a hard time including c-section births, I think there is still a bit of a struggle to include hospital-birthing moms. As if we're not authentic or natural enough.









As for c-sections not being natural...of course they are. They have to be included in natural birthing, because what is the "natural" option? Death of the mom? Death of the baby? Severe injury to one or the other? If the NB community can't get their minds around necessary c-sections, and support them, then how are they going to deal with a platform that essentially includes death or injury as the only option for so many women? Is the NBC only for those lucky enough to have circumstances that allowed a natural birth and the healthy vaginal delivery of a baby? It seems kind of rotten to say "well, you can be part of the NB community, or your baby could die/be injured in the vaginal birth...but as soon as a scalpel enters the picture, YOU'RE OUT!"


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
double post.

i've submitted my thread to questions and suggestions. i will link to it if it is approved.

Oh woops I was answering more personal like









We are currently working on a different way of doing Tribes and I think this will probably fulfill this need in a way that will work well for all of us.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.

It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I *was* and *am* in the NFL/NCB community and I _wish_ I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - _the_ necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I think people often take things far more personally than something is intended.

A post in opposition to the c-section rates or trying to offer information about avoiding a c/s isn't an attack on those who have had a c/s just as information about breastfeeding isn't an attack on those who had to bottle feed.

I have seen a lot of situations where people trying to discuss breastfeeding were interrupted by someone wanting to insist that they had to bottlefeed. I think people should be able to discuss natural birth without constantly adding qualifiers that medical interventions are sometimes necessary. Of course they are necessary, this is undeniable. But there is no magic machine that can give us guarantees of exactly what we can do to prevent any issues, if we can prevent them at all.

My second c/s was due to a genetic condition. There is no test for that condition during pregnancy. There is no magic way of *knowing* with any certainty so we just have to jump. Sometimes being a woman takes a great amount of courage, whether that choice is to take the c/s or to try to birth naturally. If we had a magic crystal birth ball everything would be easier but we do not.

I should be able to say that having a natural birth is ideal without having to say that c/s are sometimes necessary. I should be able to say that "breast is best" without saying that formula is sometimes necessary. That just sounds like a formula commercial.

I think a lot of people here know that I was planning an HBAC which was called off because I had severe polyhydraminios and I had a planned c/s because my ds was starting to struggle.

I shouldn't have to add qualifiers that I had a c/s if I want to speak out against c/s.

We shouldn't have to tiptoe around each other all the time. People are getting angry without asking questions. People get irate before trying to discern intent. This is a community and we need to work together.

Yes, the c/s rate should be lower, that is undeniable but stating that isn't an attack.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.

My version of a "failed" natural birth is where *decisions are made incorrectly* which seriously impact on the child's or mother's health. Not every c-section qualifies for that, nor does every non-intervention.

I do find it mildly offensive that a woman's whole experience for the best birth is supposed to boil down to "avoid a c-section at any cost." That was my position on my first delivery as well, and the thing is - there are worse things than a c-section, like a dead or severely handicapped child.

There is no reason to focus on ONE potential lifesaving procedure as the worst-case "bad birth" scenario.

I think it's really _nice_ to think that avoiding a c-section is all about a little encouragement or that HCPs "won't do" what is necessary. But I don't think the real world on-the-ground decisions _usually_ work out that way.

At this point I really want to ask you about your background, because my experience with HCPs is that they are totally able to support natural birth until they _believe_ an intervention is necessary. That's not a question of not doing what's "necessary." It's a difference in the definition of necessary.

When we talk about a cascade of intervention, I don't feel shamed or blamed. But when we focus simply on c-sections, I find it annoying. It's missing the point. Interventions are just interventions. The question is *when*.

Y'know, it's funny but I feel a bit like I've read people say over and over "I was made to feel like I could no longer be a part of the NCB because I had a necessary intervention".

Maybe the NCB (whatever that is







) could actually _listen_ to actual women about how it would _help_ them to discuss *birth intervention decision making* rather than simply demonizing procedures or saying "it shouldn't be shaming for me to express myself this way." In other words, if women KEEP RESPONDING to the way you are expressing yourself in similar ways, they may not be the issue.

If your goal is to empower women then a good place to start is by listening to them.

You completely misquote me in the most egregious way.

I NEVER said "avoid a c-section at any cost." I said quite clearly that c-sections are life-saving procedures. I also said that many women want to know how to avoid them. This is where education comes in.

I also clearly said that the NCB community needs to educate women on the way to reduce the risk of a c-section, and also needs to educate women that sometimes things don't go the way you planned. But it's funny that no one at all seems to be reading or responding to that. I also said that no particular woman should be questioned about her particular birth or made to feel like a failure. And no one is responding to that, either.

If you really think we should not talk about ways to reduce the c-section rate, then frankly, I am shocked and appalled. This is a natural parenting community. C-sections are not a desirable result to many members here and we are going to talk about ways to avoid them. None of which implies that any person who had a c-section is bad or wrong or failed.


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I *was* and *am* in the NFL/NCB community and I _wish_ I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - _the_ necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.

We cross posted.

I am sorry for your loss.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

louis said:


> I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.
> 
> 
> > Adoption is in the natural parenting forums. And in adoption, you often use formula. And AP isn't always the best course of action for certain adopted kids...all kinds of variations on what the natural parenting community might say is "best." The thing is, depending on circumstances, what's said to be "best" isn't always a possibility....and yet our forum still exists in the MDC's parenting framework. Given that, I don't see why c-sections can't be recognized as part of the natural birthing community framework here at MDC.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.

No, that is not the intent behind doing that. NICU is in Ages and Stages because the baby is born. It is about the baby as the other Ages and Stages forums are. NICU isn't in A&S to distinguish it from NCB and many posters in NICU did have a NCB.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - I said I was done, but this one just...ugh...

Okay. That's fine. I didn't ask why you gave consent, because it doesn't matter to me. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that you think I'm making some kind of judgement of the fact that you consented. I'm not. A c-section was the best decision for you at that time. It was the best decision for me last June. I have _no problem_ with someone consenting to a c-section.

My point was that I have no faith that your refusal, had you made one, would have mattered, if a doctor had already determined that a c-section was in your best interests. I was making no judgment about a woman giving consent.

I never said that your doctor doesn't care. I said that the fact that she teared up over your placenta proves nothing, one way or the other.

All I'm trying to say is that my opinion is different than yours, my c/s experience is different and that's that. It's obvious whatever I say will be countered, and I'm just trying to show that it's not a one size fits all sort of thing-that's it.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process.

Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club..._if_...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
But, this website isn't technically a natural childbirth website, at least not exclusively. It's natural family living. The tagline says, "Inspiring natural families since 1976". It doesn't say "The gathering-place for women who birth naturally since 1976." If it did, there would undoubtedly be no room for a woman who had had a c-section. But plenty of women are committed to the idea of natural family living and have had, necessarily or unnecessarily, c-sections.

Television isn't natural, but there's a forum for it here.

Anyway, this is part of what I struggle with in the natural community. It's the sort of purity check-list mentality. Vaginal birth? No interventions? Cloth diapers? Organic food? No vaxes? TF diet? Wearing your baby 23.5 horus a day? GD? Unless you check all or most of the boxes, you don't get to belong, or you feel ashamed and embarrassed by your choices (or what life has imposed on you, depending...) And if you don't manage the vaginal birth or the breastfeeding, you are DEFINITELY marginalized. You have to justify, explain, apologize. It's assumed you were given bad info, manipulated, lied to. Perhaps this is true, perhaps not. It's not fun, though, to be pitied and treated as "less than".

I *am* defensive about having had a c-section. I am defensive because the overwhelming belief here is that c-section, as GuildJenn said, is the WORST possible outcome. It's not. Really, really not.

This is a common reaction among newbies. There was a fad of "here is how I am not crunchy" lists that I believe the moderators had to stop. I think it was a good idea to stop it - NOT b/c we have a purity test - but b/c of the anger it engendered, which is especially silly given that all this perceived exclusion is really self-directed. Parents make all sorts of different choices, and the goal is to make the best decisions for ourselves and what we can live with. There is no checklist or goalsheet that you are being judged by. Where people get confused is that they perceive there not being a place to discuss it on MDC as disapproval, and that is not it at all. MDC has a very clear mission statement. It is not every parenting site and that is a good thing. The mods work very hard to not water down the community here, and having moderated another site, that is very hard.

As an example: I have a lot of addiction in my family. I attend a 12-step program for families dealing with addiction. It has been enormously helpful, but there are some views in 12-step organizations with which I do not agree. But I don't go to those fora and talk about why I think they should not think the way they do, nor would I expect them to host such discussion. It is outside the scope of their forum. And a lot of it is my own self-adjustment - I am comfortable taking what I like from those fora and leaving the rest. I do not take those members perceived total acceptance of 12-step as a personal attack or a comment on me and how much of a good 12-stepper I am. I am comfortable with my choices and don't particularly care what they think.

Personally, I feed my kids a ton of junk food and I am sure that people here would be horrified. But I don't go to the cooking forum and get offended by people talking about how not eating well is so unhealthy. My personal hot topics are childbirth, bfing and circumcision. I frequent those fora. They matter to me. I belong here and don't need the perceived approval of anyone here to stay. I also try very hard not to see insult where none was intended.


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## louis (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I *was* and *am* in the NFL/NCB community and I _wish_ I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - _the_ necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.

I am beyond sorry for your loss. It is the ultimate worst outcome. Please do not jump at me because I am answering the question posed in the OP. I wish for you that you had your necessary c-section and that your child was in your arms right at this moment.
I would never tell you what community you get to be in. That is not what I am saying. However, you can interpret every statement I make any way you want. You can capitalize on certain words and decide that I am telling you where and how you belong. But I am not. I am responding to the OP.

Again, I am sorry. There are no more words.

For every statement made there is an argument or defense against it. It is all in how we perceive what is being said. Take care everyone, my hormones can't handle anymore of this discussion.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club..._if_...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...

She did not say that your experience or you were second class. She said that c-sections are not the desirable process in the natural parenting community. There is a big difference - your interpretation takes it personally and completely distorts it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
You completely misquote me in the most egregious way.

I NEVER said "avoid a c-section at any cost." I said quite clearly that c-sections are life-saving procedures. I also said that many women want to know how to avoid them. This is where education comes in.

I also clearly said that the NCB community needs to educate women on the way to reduce the risk of a c-section, and also needs to educate women that sometimes things don't go the way you planned. But it's funny that no one at all seems to be reading or responding to that. I also said that no particular woman should be questioned about her particular birth or made to feel like a failure. And no one is responding to that, either.

If you really think we should not talk about ways to reduce the c-section rate, then frankly, I am shocked and appalled. This is a natural parenting community. C-sections are not a desirable result to many members here and we are going to talk about ways to avoid them. None of which implies that any person who had a c-section is bad or wrong or failed.

And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

uneducated
duped
unnatural
To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
There are also many references to people feeling marginalized or disenfranchised in threads on MDC, just because they had a c-section. I, myself, have not seen threads where someone is criticized for having had a necessary c-section. I have seen threads where people apologize to others for their interventions and/or c-section. I feel this is a natural emotion as someone who does believe in natural childbirth. I mourn and grieve for the loss of the desired birth, but can also rejoice in the outcome of healthy child, despite the way it made it into the world. I will never celebrate a c-section, though I can appreciate their life-saving place in the world.

With all due respect, by your own words you've never even given birth let alone had a c-section, and I see by your post count that you're relatively new to the board. Just because you haven't seen the criticism first hand does not mean that it does not exist. I find it can be a little subtle. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to it now that I've actually had a c-section, but I was definitely aware of it before I had one.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

uneducated
duped
unnatural
To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.


These are my thoughts, too. Well said.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club..._if_...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...

I don't think that is what anyone is trying to say. Having had c/s I have to say a baby coming out of a giant hole in my abdomen is actually less desirable than coming out the area that was made for babies to come out of. Also less than desirable would be a horrific tear or anything else that would be traumatic for the mother.

The difference is that the HCP doesn't insist you tear everytime because that is how you had your baby the first time.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

uneducated
duped
unnatural
To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

And I would suggest that no one here is "making you feel" anything. No one has said that you made a bad decision or had a bad birth. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are also responsible for them.

You asked:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"

My answer: We will try to educate women on how to have a natural childbirth, while at the same time educating them that sometimes a c-section is necessary, and nothing to feel bad about.

(Which I have now said THREE times, so I think that maybe I should stop being the strawman for you.)


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

I don't disagree I know some do judge but those people don't speak for MDC, for Mothering or the NCB community as a whole.

We do need to give each other a lot more love and support. Judging isn't good for the community and it doesn't help the message.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

Perhaps the question shouldn't be 'how do c-sections fit into NCB?'. Perhaps it should be how do we support post-c-section or post-intervention women within the NCB community? Assuming they're HERE in the first place, they probably wanted a natural a birth as possible and they want to parent naturally. Or perhaps they didn't but have since learned differently. Either way, they need to be welcomed here, not ostracized for choices that have already been made.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
And I would suggest that no one here is "making you feel" anything. No one has said that you made a bad decision or had a bad birth. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are also responsible for them.

You asked:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"

My answer: We will try to educate women on how to have a natural childbirth, while at the same time educating them that sometimes a c-section is necessary, and nothing to feel bad about.

(Which I have now said THREE times, so I think that maybe I should stop being the strawman for you.)

I look forward to your posts on how a c-section is sometimes necessary.









I was thinking about your 12-step board analogy. And it works for me...which is why I rarely, RARELY post on this forum. But when I saw this thread's title and direction I definitely took it as an opportunity to talk about how c-section for me can fit into the NCB framework.

I'm really disappointed that it went in the direction of "well WHY do people who have had/needed c-sections always take it SO PERSONALLY." Instead of asking the question really, why is it that our way of posting about c-sections alienates the very women we are trying to serve or include?

It just confirms for me that there's a significant portion of the community that is just not ready to really to include people with experiences similar to mine.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I've written up a few posts and then thought I better stay out of it, but I'm going to put my foot in my mouth.

When I saw this thread, I thought it was a thread trying to seek out ways to support women who've had c-sections in the most natural birth framework possible. A way to have these natural minded women in the birthing part of the community without feeling like they're second rate. No, it's not "natural" to have the surgery, but most things about birth nowadays aren't natural if you get down to it, if you're going to be a purist. Do I get demoted because my vaginal births were in a hospital as opposed to home?

Now I get there is discussion and opinions to be had about reducing c-sections and how there are too many and how it's not natural etc. But I also think there is a time and place for everything. It's a hard topic for many people and they are opening up about their births and how they've felt they've been treated by the community and I don't think that this thread is the most thoughtful place to say something to the degree of people being too sensitive or touchy and that they just have to accept that they are not part of the community the same way. It's an opportunity for listening and building and coming together and making the community stronger, and I'm surprised in the midst of that (outside of relating personal birth experiences) people aren't jumping all over that.

I have two kids, I've had two vaginal births and I can easily see where people would be bothered by some of the comments. So c-section natural minded mamas, you tell me how I can be an ally, and I'll sign up.


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
I don't disagree I know some do judge but those people don't speak for MDC, for Mothering or the NCB community as a whole.

We do need to give each other a lot more love and support. Judging isn't good for the community and it doesn't help the message.

I just want to add, I don't think anyone is doing that here.

It is difficult to have a real conversation when our emotions and our most precious memories are attached to the issue.

Some of the happiest moments in my life were when my children were placed in my arms, even though I had a brand new incision at the time. It can be hard to separate that happiest moment from the c/s issue.

I have struggled to separate the issue so I focus on my daughter and what her birth choices will be. I don't want my daughter's Dr thinking he can tell her she needs to be induced at 39 weeks because he is going on vacation. I don't want my daughter struggling to find a midwife. If my daughter does have a c/s then I want her to be able to get a VBAC if she wants.

We have to keep fighting because we are parents.

We just have to be able to do that while offering other parents the love and support that they need.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
And I would suggest that no one here is "making you feel" anything. No one has said that you made a bad decision or had a bad birth. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are also responsible for them.

this is off-topic but i do not agree with the above. i know it is very common in 12-step programs (having been through quite a few myself) but if someone is being mean to you, it's not _your_ fault that your feelings are hurt by their mean actions.

please note, this is the simplest way i could find to phrase this, i'm not saying that you are being mean here at all. i'm just saying that i disagree with the idea that a person carries no responsibility for the results of their actions or words.

of course, you can work through your feelings, but i don't think you choose them. otherwise, wouldn't everyone choose to be happy all the time?


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
I've written up a few posts and then thought I better stay out of it, but I'm going to put my foot in my mouth.

When I saw this thread, I thought it was a thread trying to seek out ways to support women who've had c-sections in the most natural birth framework possible. A way to have these natural minded women in the birthing part of the community without feeling like they're second rate. No, it's not "natural" to have the surgery, but most things about birth nowadays aren't natural if you get down to it, if you're going to be a purist. Do I get demoted because my vaginal births were in a hospital as opposed to home?

Now I get there is discussion and opinions to be had about reducing c-sections and how there are too many and how it's not natural etc. But I also think there is a time and place for everything. It's a hard topic for many people and they are opening up about their births and how they've felt they've been treated by the community and I don't think that this thread is the most thoughtful place to say something to the degree of people being too sensitive or touchy and that they just have to accept that they are not part of the community the same way. It's an opportunity for listening and building and coming together and making the community stronger, and I'm surprised in the midst of that (outside of relating personal birth experiences) people aren't jumping all over that.

I have two kids, I've had two vaginal births and I can easily see where people would be bothered by some of the comments. So c-section natural minded mamas, you tell me how I can be an ally, and I'll sign up.

I love that you get it. Even though you haven't had a c-section yourself, you are able to see where some of us are coming from - and I agree, the thread took an unnecessary turn.


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i'd also like to say that for most of this thread NO ONE was talking about how they were offended.

they were talking and sharing about their personal feelings and stories and how healing it could be to read find other women experiencing the same thing.

i _cried_ telling my dh about this thread and how many woman had thanked me for opening this up to discussion.

i'm crying right now because i don't want this to get shut down or become the same old argument of, "you're taking it too personally," when it WASN'T meant to be about that.

*i want for everyone to read the stories and think about how to include these women that are telling you over and over again that they feel excluded, less-than, second-best, marginalized, lost.*

it is not just any one person. there are lots of women here that feel this way and i don't think it's just a matter of taking things too personally. i want to do something to work through this without anger and frustration to get us ALL to a better place.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't thinl I thanked you, playa - but thank you.







This thread, after reading a few others in the past week regarding c-sections, has been very helpful to me, personally, in sorting through my reality and feelings about how my children were born. Reading other's stories definitely made me feel more connected with others who have similar values in many aspects of life, despite enduring c-sections. And, you know what? In ways it has made me realize I am thankful for my c-sections - b/c while they certainly weren't wanted, the outcome was positive, and I happened to have awesome care providers and supportive people surrounding me each time. That has got to be what makes the biggest difference between a awful cesarean, and an okay one.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
It is difficult to have a real conversation when our emotions and our most precious memories are attached to the issue.

It is also a difficult conversation because we are talking about who perspective gets to be included and whose must to be excluded. And we're also talking about who gets to decide what is included and excluded.

What I keep hearing, over & over, from the c/s mamas is that we feel like we don't get to decide. The terms are not ours. Our experiences, our thoughts, the truth of our stories is not what gets to decide whether or not we can include the _*full range*_ of our c/s experience in the NCB conversation.

And this just adds another layer of disenfranchisement for women who have already been through a lot.


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
She did not say that your experience or you were second class. She said that c-sections are not the desirable process in the natural parenting community. There is a big difference - your interpretation takes it personally and completely distorts it.

Look I think that this is basically the crux of the arguement here: what louis posted was specifically:

"I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process."

I am certainly not trying to distort anything, but the quote implies that women who have had c-sections can only be a part of the NCB community if they realize that their experience was not desirable. Its the *if* that gets to me, because it does not recognize that women who have had c-sections are *already* part of the NCB community. Don't you see that it is by its nature exclusionary?

Of course I agree that having a baby come out of an incision is often not preferred to having one come out of your vagina. However I do not agree that women who fall into the first category need some kind of "literacy test" to be taken seriously in the NCB community. It's really frustrating.


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i'd also like to say that for most of this thread NO ONE was talking about how they were offended.

they were talking and sharing about their personal feelings and stories and how healing it could be to read find other women experiencing the same thing.

i _cried_ telling my dh about this thread and how many woman had thanked me for opening this up to discussion.

i'm crying right now because i don't want this to get shut down or become the same old argument of, "you're taking it too personally," when it WASN'T meant to be about that.

*i want for everyone to read the stories and think about how to include these women that are telling you over and over again that they feel excluded, less-than, second-best, marginalized, lost.*

it is not just any one person. there are lots of women here that feel this way and i don't think it's just a matter of taking things too personally. i want to do something to work through this without anger and frustration to get us ALL to a better place.











That would be really great Playamama. So many of us have so much healing to do.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
It is also a difficult conversation because we are talking about who perspective gets to be included and whose must to be excluded. And we're also talking about who gets to decide what is included and excluded.

What I keep hearing, over & over, from the c/s mamas is that we feel like we don't get to decide. The terms are not ours. Our experiences, our thoughts, the truth of our stories is not what gets to decide whether or not we can include the _*full range*_ of our c/s experience in the NCB conversation.

And this just adds another layer of disenfranchisement for women who have already been through a lot.











I am sorry anyone feels excluded or disenfranchised. I do want everyone to feel supported and cared for.

This is an important discussion and I really hope we can all find a way together.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
*i want for everyone to read the stories and think about how to include these women that are telling you over and over again that they feel excluded, less-than, second-best, marginalized, lost.*

it is not just any one person. there are lots of women here that feel this way and i don't think it's just a matter of taking things too personally. i want to do something to work through this without anger and frustration to get us ALL to a better place.

YES!!!!!

Thank you, PlayaMama for starting this conversation and for having the courage to stick with it.

Thank you for all the c/s Mamas who have the courage to tell their stories! Just knowing you are out there is hugely affirming. I want to hear from more of you.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Ladies, I've been following the thread. Thank you all for what you've shared. I don't have anything to contribute, but wanted to let you all know that I really appreciate the intelligent discussion.








all around.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
I have two kids, I've had two vaginal births and I can easily see where people would be bothered by some of the comments. So c-section natural minded mamas, you tell me how I can be an ally, and I'll sign up.

I don't want to derail, but can we pursue this? What language, what support, what approaches to NCB team ourselves with women who've had c-section births? How can it be less exclusionary? What terms hurt, and which ones support? What insinuations are made that we can look out for, and call out as unfair or hurtful? What can be done to remove that "layer of disenfranchisement for women who have already been through a lot."?


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I love that you get it. Even though you haven't had a c-section yourself, you are able to see where some of us are coming from - and I agree, the thread took an unnecessary turn.

i want to say that i personally haven't had a c-section either. i'm not sure if it came across that i had because i seem so adamant about this cause but i haven't.

my motivation was seeing this sort of issue come up in several different threads and the feeling that there were women here who weren't being included.

there have been so many things in parenting that have taught me to NEVER use the phrase, "i would never...." because almost every single time i say it i find myself doing what i was never going to do. let my kid watch tv, eat processed sugar, yell, whatever..

i was going to be the perfect parent and i've discovered that all too often, that means doing the best i can with what i have. i've noticed that the same is often true of c-section mamas and yet, i hadn't really seen the issue explored and i didn't know if what i was feeling and seeing was true.

i think it's the feminist in me that wants all women's stories acknowledged and supported, especially when they seem to have the same goals in common. really, there's more holding us all together than there is separating us and i feel like those ties should be strengthened rather than torn down.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Catching up on this thread and I see it took a turn, but c'est la vie.

Abimommy - Thanks for the update about tribes as I think it might be a viable solution here.

Playa - thank you momma for starting this thread and helping us all keep our eye on the ball to have a place to share, commiserate and move forward with our NCB goals as mothers

To everyone who has shared their story - thank you
So in looking back through the various posts since my last, my work hat is on and I'm trying to see what the goals from this thread could be moving forward, and here's what I've come up with:

- an area to feel support for those mothers who have undergone c/s, to have an opportunity to be listened to, to be angry (if needed) and to have support from others who have BTDT

- Encourage local communities, free-standing birth centers, natural parenting groups to begin or sponsor c/s support groups to reach out to those women who need the support (?)

- Figure out how to mobilize education efforts with all the various audiences (HCP i.e. ob/gyns, midwives, CNMs, doulas, expectant mothers etc) with regards to the c-section rate in the us and what choices, options, practices occur in communities and the drivers behind those practices


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I think for myself that it would be nice for those who are in the NBC to realize that it's not just the cascade of interventions or being scared that may create the need for a c/s. Being told I was "just scared" by a gung-ho, fresh out of school midwife who has never been pregnant or had a baby, is pretty insulting.

I still would like to see a place for us on MDC, I think for myself it would help. I know when I was in my DDC it was a difficult stigma to be an RCS, for me it wasn't really elective, it was my only option, I mean sure I could have had a HB, but no midwife would have even taken me. My nurse(also a midwife) when I was admitted for my C/S for DS saw on my record about my T, she said even with the politics surrounding VBAC that it wouldn't be an option for me. T's are just too rare and unstable of an incision.

Also there needs to be an understanding that yes many c/s are unnecessary, but many women who have had or have to have a C/S are not grossly uneducated. I was fully educated, I read and read before DDs birth, I was planning a waterbirth, I drank my RRL, took EPO, walked, envisioned my body opening, yada, yada, yada. I did all the prep work. How was I supposed to know that my broken tailbone was going to basically block my DD-I didn't. I guess not matter what there are just too many unknowns, even when we think we know what's up.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I think for myself that it would be nice for those who are in the NBC to realize that it's not just the cascade of interventions or being scared that may create the need for a c/s. *Being told I was "just scared" by a gung-ho, fresh out of school midwife who has never been pregnant or had a baby, is pretty insulting.*

I still would like to see a place for us on MDC, I think for myself it would help. I know when I was in my DDC it was a difficult stigma to be an RCS, for me it wasn't really elective, it was my only option, I mean sure I could have had a HB, but no midwife would have even taken me. My nurse(also a midwife) when I was admitted for my C/S for DS saw on my record about my T, she said even with the politics surrounding VBAC that it wouldn't be an option for me. T's are just too rare and unstable of an incision.

Also there needs to be an understanding that yes many c/s are unnecessary, but many women who have had or have to have a C/S are not grossly uneducated. I was fully educated, I read and read before DDs birth, I was planning a waterbirth, I drank my RRL, took EPO, walked, envisioned my body opening, yada, yada, yada. I did all the prep work. How was I supposed to know that my broken tailbone was going to basically block my DD-I didn't. I guess not matter what there are just too many unknowns, even when we think we know what's up.

The bolding is mine and This is what gets me fired up! I'll disclose that I work in an academic medical college, and received care in the affliated hosptial. For me with my failed vbac, I used every opportunity to have discussions with my HCP. He's the director of residencies in the OB/GYN department and I saw this as my chance to affect change. Now really - did I with my 10 zillion questions, or persistance with questioning policy & practice, probably not, but what I did get was a very healthy respect from him regarding my body and my decisions which I hope he continues to carry with him in his practice (I'll find out when I go back for my annual) I talked with students, residents about the choices presented, questioned their ideas of options and made them think, I complained about comments were snidely made about me jeopardizing my baby when I chose to go to 42 weeks (oh yes the dead baby card was thrown out by nurses in the clinic) and that is why we have to give the feedback to those professional - that demeaning conduct, and those fear-tactics are UNACCEPTABLE!

phew... sorry for just going off, but I needed to get that off my chest pronto


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_ktg_* 
The bolding is mine and This is what gets me fired up! I'll disclose that I work in an academic medical college, and received care in the affliated hosptial. For me with my failed vbac, I used every opportunity to have discussions with my HCP. He's the director of residencies in the OB/GYN department and I saw this as my chance to affect change. Now really - did I with my 10 zillion questions, or persistance with questioning policy & practice, probably not, but what I did get was a very healthy respect from him regarding my body and my decisions which I hope he continues to carry with him in his practice (I'll find out when I go back for my annual) I talked with students, residents about the choices presented, questioned their ideas of options and made them think, I complained about comments were snidely made about me jeopardizing my baby when I chose to go to 42 weeks (oh yes the dead baby card was thrown out by nurses in the clinic) and that is why we have to give the feedback to those professional - that demeaning conduct, and those fear-tactics are UNACCEPTABLE!

phew... sorry for just going off, but I needed to get that off my chest pronto









I don't think she'll ever say anything like that again. After that comment one of her clients who was also her good friend ended up as an HB transfer via ambulance which ended up in an emergency c/s while under her care. It was a situation almost identical to my own. I'm pretty sure she's changed how she'd approach me now, but I still don't really talk to her. Honestly I don't even know if she remembers she said that, I really think it was one of those know-it-all moments that many people have when they get out of school-then reality hits. Sure in the real world we would all have perfect births, but it's something that has so many variables perfection cannot always be attained-that is the reality.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i really think a c-section support section would be a very welcome addition to mdc. as i said in the previous post, i'm interested in moving _beyond_ the education for a natural birth and it seems like a forum dedicated to _support_ would accomplish that. i'd like for it not to be in "healing birth trauma" because i think there are plenty of examples in this thread where the birth wasn't necessarily traumatic but that the lack of acceptance by the ncb community has been.

i know that what we do irl can also make a difference and the stories i've read here of women becoming doulas and ob/gyns as a way to make that difference are really inspiring.

this is really exciting! i am going to post this in questions and suggestions. i will link that thread here if anyone is interested in adding their voice.

I think a c section support group on MDC would be great too. when I was totally surprised by my c section, and came on here afterwards, I wasn't sure where to post! I mostly posted in healing birth trauma but not all of my experience was traumatic.
It is interesting, because I don't think anyone wants to encourage c sections- but for those of us who have had them it is great to connect with others! I feel so much more healed- seriously- just from this thread, knoing there are many others like me in this situation.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I don't think she'll ever say anything like that again. After that comment one of her clients who was also her good friend ended up as an HB transfer via ambulance which ended up in an emergency c/s while under her care. It was a situation almost identical to my own. I'm pretty sure she's changed how she'd approach me now, but I still don't really talk to her. Honestly I don't even know if she remembers she said that, I really think it was one of those know-it-all moments that many people have when they get out of school-then reality hits. Sure in the real world we would all have perfect births, but it's something that has so many variables perfection cannot always be attained-that is the reality.

I love your last sentence as that is exactly the away I see the birth experience and hopefully will help my clients with that mentality in their approach to birthing.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katie34* 
I think a c section support group on MDC would be great too. when I was totally surprised by my c section, and came on here afterwards, I wasn't sure where to post! I mostly posted in healing birth trauma but not all of my experience was traumatic.
It is interesting, because I don't think anyone wants to encourage c sections- but for those of us who have had them it is great to connect with others! I feel so much more healed- seriously- just from this thread, knoing there are many others like me in this situation.

I was too. I was totally ignorant of c/s information and just assumed my birth would be fine. I grew up with grandparents that were born at home and great grandmothers that remembered it.

Heck I was a nine pound breech baby with a huge head (no I won't show my baby pics I am sensitive







) and my mom had me vaginally, why wouldn't I be able to? My mom doesn't really understand how I wanted alternatives but she also doesn't understand that she would have been hard pressed to find a Dr who would even know how to flip a baby in the middle of labor much less one that would be willing.

My parents were the first generation in my family that was born in the hospital and it is like that for a lot of people.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_ktg_* 
Catching up on this thread and I see it took a turn, but c'est la vie.

Abimommy - Thanks for the update about tribes as I think it might be a viable solution here.

Playa - thank you momma for starting this thread and helping us all keep our eye on the ball to have a place to share, commiserate and move forward with our NCB goals as mothers

To everyone who has shared their story - thank you
So in looking back through the various posts since my last, my work hat is on and I'm trying to see what the goals from this thread could be moving forward, and here's what I've come up with:

- an area to feel support for those mothers who have undergone c/s, to have an opportunity to be listened to, to be angry (if needed) and to have support from others who have BTDT

- Encourage local communities, free-standing birth centers, natural parenting groups to begin or sponsor c/s support groups to reach out to those women who need the support (?)

- Figure out how to mobilize education efforts with all the various audiences (HCP i.e. ob/gyns, midwives, CNMs, doulas, expectant mothers etc) with regards to the c-section rate in the us and what choices, options, practices occur in communities and the drivers behind those practices

I think those are great. For me I think what I would like to see is:

- care paid to the rhetorical language used in discussing birth; not only are there real women and babies behind the stories (even the designer c-section ones) but I think it derails the NCB to focus heavily on c-sections and doesn't serve women well if they fear a c-section more than anything else. The c-section rate is significant as an indicator, but it is hardly the only one - having everyone in twilight sleep with forceps wouldn't be any more respectful, so let's talk about interventions and not just one possible intervention

- a focus on what would actually help people make better decisions, rather than dictating the outcome: More respect and training for midwives, more research, more dialogue between midwives and OBs and L&D nursing staff

- a more balanced look at risks and advantages/disadvantages of certain decisions in labour

- more discussion around "when labour goes off the rails" that does not insinuate that it is a lack of desire or planning on the mother's part

I am really glad to have this discussion even though it's been emotional for me. Thanks


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

the first question i see is this--_are there people who judge other's births?_

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.

as a UCer, my birth gets judged all the time. as a person who advocates for birth choices--including UC--my opinion gets judged all the time. my intelligence, sanity, "responsibility to others" and a whole lot of other things get judged all the time.

seriously, *all the time*. it happens in the NCB community; it happens in the mainstream community. heck, it even happens among/between/from other UCers!

typically, i am told that i am dangerous, dogmatic, foolish, irresponsible, inexperienced, etc.

the next question is--_does that hurt my feelings?_

my feelings are my choice.

there are times when people are being mean. there are times when they are doing so intentionally, and times when it is unintentional.

sometimes i let my feelings get hurt, and sometimes i don't. it just depends upon where i'm coming from that day or moment.

but at the end of the day, i know who i am. i know what i believe and think and feel. i know what my birth experience was--and i know that no one else "being mean to me" or otherwise has that knowledge of who i am.

So, i answered the questions at the beginning of the thread--is there a place for mothers who have had and who will have c-sections in the NCB community? the answer is *yes*. is there a place for their stories and experiences? the answer to that is yes.

but no one seems to have cared about my answers, which sort of hurt my feelings. LOL







(btw, i kid about that it didn't hurt my feelings and i don't care if no one else cares about or shares my opinions on the matter.







)


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
the first question i see is this--_are there people who judge other's births?_

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.


This is true, one can and will likely be judged anywhere. I think a lot of judging exists due to ignorance and it shows someone's ignorance in information or just another person's situation.

A lot of people do judge UC-ers harshly just as others judge those who have had c/s harshly.

I hope we can all feel welcome and have a place here.









Kindness is really undervalued.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

really good points, dogretro. C-section may be a choice at times, but it's certainly not a choice in the way that circ, CIO, hitting, or vaxes are choices. Many moms choose them in life-threatening situations, or because they have no other birth option given their circumstances. To say we can't discuss it, or for you to feel like you can't discuss your upcoming birth (including the option of electing a c-section) is really sad in a NBC.

I also like what you said about it being somewhat ridiculous that the only way MDC recognizes/hosts discussions about c-sections is under the category of "trauma." I can see how that would be really upsetting, and continue branding moms with the idea that their births were somehow lesser, or disappointing, or something we should all pity.


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## loveneverfails (Feb 20, 2009)

This discussion is really making me rethink where I fit as a "natural childbirth" advocate. Thank you all for your thoughts and contributions here.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Thank you for your input









We really define that as "csection for no reason" and "the merits of" is key there. What that means is promoting c/s for no reason. So if someone is posting "Oh having a c/s so you have the baby in 2010 for tax reasons is a great idea!" now THAT we would remove. It does *not* apply to a mom who is having complications and going though heck, that would just be jerky.

If there is something going on no one wants to judge someone harshly for making choices they need to make.

If you have a lot of feelings about it why *can't* you post about it? I think there is a lot of confusion here. I am glad this conversation is taking place because it really is helping me to see this issue a bit more clearly.

I had a planned c/s due to complications and I was at the Mothering office not long after that and of course no one judged me. I received a lot of kindness, support and love.

If I receive that treatment from the people who work with the magazine everyday then I feel I should extend that same kindness to everyone else.

There is no rule that one has to be traumatized by a c/s.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

The thing is, I could choose a c/s right now & I have zero complications. Since I already had a c/s, a dr. would do one in a second if I asked. I dont' think there need to be complications to have the discussion. I have not felt judged by the posters in this community with regards to my daughter's birth. Even if I did, they were not there, so whatever!


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I am sorry but we aren't going to really change how we enforce that. If someone wanted to have a c/s then they could explore those feelings. People would likely present information to the contrary and we wouldn't be able to host people supporting c/s by choice.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:

Quoted post removed








Thank you. I treasured both of children's births, I didn't feel traumatized by them either and I think that open discussion without judgment would be wonderful. My DD's was an emergency, which in turn caused my T incision to happen, which thus caused my having to have a RCS. My son's birth was a zen experience honestly, and even if it was a c/s is was a joyful, wonderful experience. We didn't know what gender he was, and the entire OR rejoiced with us when we found out he was a boy. They couldn't remember when they'd done a c/s and didn't know the gender. Dh and I felt that if we knew when the baby would be born, at least we should have one surprise. At least that made part of it feel magical and we shared that with these other people, and they shared our joy.

Maybe this thread will make the creators and mods at this site realize that there are members of this community who do feel like this is important and that it is a big part of many of our lives. I can only hope.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Hot tempers aside, yeah, I think it would be a good idea to have a c/s sub-forum that was not trauma-specific with regards to c-sections. There are many women who have had c/s's for many reasons, as we have seen from the stories on this thread, and there are many more women on MDC who are looking at possibly having one. A place where women can gather to discuss their specific births, how it affects their view of birth/their bodies/future pregnancies/etc. Where they are able to express that they really might not want to pursue NCB next time for whatever reason (necessity, fear, satisfaction, etc) without seeming like they are trivializing NCB or having to get flak about it from those who have not had c/s's. I think it would also be a help to the women who are scared of possibly or necessarily having their first c/s & they could come and get more info. There are a lot of things you can do to have as natural a c/s as possible & not everyone has breastfeeding or bonding problems. It can be incredibly reassuring to hear that sometimes it really does all work out perfectly.

I do NOT think it would be constructive for this board to host discussions about first-time elective c/s's in regards to "designer c/s's" or whatever they are called.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah I know lots of women who've had "perfect" births and went on to have breastfeeding issues, bonding problems. For myself I had none of that, my DD did have to sit in an incubator guarded by one heck of a good nurse, who was given specific instructions to not let anyone but DH or myself be the ones to hold her. DH refused to leave me, he had genuine fear of losing me. My DD didn't undergo any medical procedures, she did spend her first 20 minutes in a warm bed and not with me or her daddy. Yes we had to wait to bond with her, but I never felt it was detrimental, she nursed like a champ, she had her beautiful quiet-alert state. Those first moments of her life may not have been ideal, but we made up for it when we did get to have our skin contact. Her birth is still one of the most amazing moments of my life, even if it was not what I envisioned, it is ours.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
Now I get there is discussion and opinions to be had about reducing c-sections and how there are too many and how it's not natural etc. *But I also think there is a time and place for everything.* It's a hard topic for many people and they are opening up about their births and how they've felt they've been treated by the community and I don't think that this thread is the most thoughtful place to say something to the degree of people being too sensitive or touchy and that they just have to accept that they are not part of the community the same way. It's an opportunity for listening and building and coming together and making the community stronger, and I'm surprised in the midst of that (outside of relating personal birth experiences) people aren't jumping all over that.
.

Nicely put.

I have seen, far too many times, women's *birth announcements* of births that turned into C-sections greeted not with "Congratulations and welcome baby!" but with "Wow, didn't you try this?" and "Didn't you know that's common and doesn't really require a section?" and "Oh, I had that and I waited a few hours and baby came out on his own."

The very first post of a woman becoming a mother, or having brought a new life into the world is being greeted as a case study to nitpick, rather than a miracle in its own right, even if it didn't happen under ideal circumstances.

When the most important part of a BIRTH ANNOUNCEMENT becomes hashing out what went wrong, that's a sign that a lot of people are not paying attention to the right time, the right place, and the real feelings behind each statistic.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I'm really disappointed that it went in the direction of "well WHY do people who have had/needed c-sections always take it SO PERSONALLY." Instead of asking the question really, why is it that our way of posting about c-sections alienates the very women we are trying to serve or include?

Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political. Discussing the overuse of surgery as a public health problem is completely separate from talking about an individual woman's birth experience, but the two things seem to blur sometimes.
We should support CS mothers without judgment, absolutely, but that should not preclude speaking out against the huge numbers of unnecessary CS being done. Otherwise we could never work to promote better maternity practices without alienating everybody who has ever had a baby. I had a "surprise" CS myself which I feel sure was necessary, yet I am 100% behind public suspicion of CS policy in general, because that suspicion is warranted.

Yes, CS should be seen as a less desirable outcome. It is major surgery, and if it is done, it ought to be because something is very wrong. By definition, that is an undesirable outcome. That should not be seen as insulting to women who have had a CS, or to their babies. Cardiac patients would not be insulted if having heart surgery were seen as much less desirable than never needing heart surgery.

Overuse of obstetric surgery is bad for everyone, not just natural birth advocates. When CS becomes almost routine, women who require a CS are monitored less scrupulously than if the surgery were uncommon. Mothers recovering from surgery are treated less carefully and expected to "snap back" faster, because it is such a common thing. CS gets recommended for very minor variations in labour, because it is no longer seen as a big deal. Efforts to make hospitals more conducive to an easy birth seem less crucial when a third of their patients will be delivered surgically. Attempts to establish appropriate use of birth technology become more difficult. Having a CS has made me more militant about these things, not less so.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i think that this thread has really served a good purpose within the community to bring women together and i really think the suggestions raised here have merit.

abimommy- could it be possible for mdc to have a sticky at the top of birth and beyond regarding this issue? i think there is a lot from this thread that might be able to assist something like that coming together. guildjenn and ktg have brought up some very pertinent suggestions to reference language and how we treat each other.

also, i noticed that there have been posts removed when i was at work. please please PLEASE everyone keep it respectful and gentle. feel free to start a spin-off thread that addresses your issue. i'm trying to decide if i should start a new thread to address some of the questions raised as i know it can be hard for everyone to wade through an 8-pager


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i think that this thread has really served a good purpose within the community to bring women together and i really think the suggestions raised here have merit.

abimommy- could it be possible for mdc to have a sticky at the top of birth and beyond regarding this issue? i think there is a lot from this thread that might be able to assist something like that coming together. guildjenn and ktg have brought up some very pertinent suggestions to reference language and how we treat each other.

We are reducing the number of threads that are stickies and moving to resources instead. We aren't just stickying things anymore.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

It's been several pages since I posted, and I've been reading every response. Despite never having a birth of any kind, I absolutely see the stigma against c-section mamas, especially on this thread. Considering that I've never even been pregnant, that can't be blamed on my emotions in the issue because I have none. What bothers me most of all, and it is so clearly evident in this post, is the pity, especially when followed by comments like "it's okay to have a c-section as long as you realize it's not the best way to birth." What is that? That is not helpful. Why can't it be understood and respected that many moms here have had c-sections, and for a lot of women, they are not traumatic and terrible experiences. That maybe, there is no regret over the loss of a vaginal birth because the mom believes it all played out how it was supposed to.

This is why it is critically important to *always* support the mother and her right to informed consent, not just natural birth. It would be silly to deny that when it is possible (everything is uncomplicated and mom is prepared and ready for it), natural and unmedicated birth is safest for mom and baby. Safest doesn't always directly translate to best. My younger sister was born with no pain medication and it absolutely traumatized my mom. For her, unmedicated birth was not the ideal. I'm not trying to defend any sort of unnecessary intervention as I don't want this post removed. I am simply trying to say that there is no one size fits all for birth, and no woman should be led to feel like her birth experience was second rate.

Also, I say this as someone who will have homebirths, barring no complications. Should complications arise, I could not care less if I get a c-section, and it would still be the happiest day of my life if my child and I made it through everything safely. In fact, I would elect a c-section over induction if I ever needed early delivery. We go on about how the medical community always belittles mothers by saying "all that matters is a healthy baby and healthy mom." Well, I'm sorry, but that's true, and we _should be using this saying in our community!_ Home birth is safest for low-risk pregnancies, but at the end of the day, I would bite off my toes if that's what it took to save myself or my child. In my opinion (as in, for me and me only), a c-section is not some bad thing. It's a reality of life, and call me over-prepared, but you can bet that I'll find an awesome back-up OB when the time comes and prepare an in-depth c-section birth plan, should I be in that small percentage.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I do want to remind everyone that posting to criticize the magazine, MDC or MDC Members is against the UA and will result in removal.

We do want a meaningful discussion but that needs to be constructive and respectful.

Please take a bit more care in wording one's posts. Try and come up with solutions rather than generalized attacks on the community.

It that sort of thing continues I will need to close this thread.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

to go back a few posts when i last responded. . .

to clarify, i have no problem with people judging me or what have you. it's sort of 'normal' in a way. i understand that my perspective is "fringe." i understand that my experience is "fringe." so, with that comes a certain level of understanding that there will be some judgement.

the difference, though, between my "fringe" experience, and the complete opposite side of the spectrum (c-sections, and lets just say all of them for the sake of the conversation)--which would be the other edge of the bell curve--is that *i* got to choose, and most of those women did not. necessary c-sections are not a choice, though the absolutel right course of action. unnecessary c-sections are--more often than not--also not a choice, but either what happened to a woman, or the decision that was forced upon her in a vulnerable moment.

so, it is easier for me to accept the judgements of others. it may nto be so easy for someone who is grieving what her experience was, or dealing with anger about the experience.

it is important to recognize, though, that speaking about a political situation, there is not inherent judgement. and, when speaking with individuals. . .it is my experience and perception of MDC and the NCB community that women who have had c-sections are welcome to participate, and supported in their process with NCB.

To give an example, Storm Bride just keeps on keeping on. Here she is, on MDC, a woman who is extremely passionate about and experienced with c-sections. i do not think that she feels judged or unsupported, or she wouldn't be hanging around. i think that there are many other mothers on here who have had c-sections who feel similarly, too.

so, i wouldn't want to characterize the whole movement or the whole board as "unsupportive of women who hvae had c-sections." if anything, the movement is inherently *supportive* of women, their choices, their right to access to medical care and interventions for emergent and specialized situations, and their ability to determine for themselves what the right birth is for them.

it is true, though, that this does not "wash away" whatever women who have had c-sections are feeling and experiencing--and voicing here--that feeling of being judged, that you cannot participate, that you do not have a place or a role.

i refer back to my oritinal post. the role of mothers who have had c-sections is to continue to inform on the entire landscape of birth--which sometimes means seeking out help, and therefore interventions, to facilitate a safe birth.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

abimommy- thank you for the response about the stickies i actually just read the forum guidelines for the first time







and i see that c-sections are mentioned there as something to be treated respectfully.

also, i'd really like this thread to stay alive, in case i haven't said that enough







, would it be okay for me to start a new one in an attempt to move the discussion over rather than letting it become an issue here?


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
the first question i see is this--_are there people who judge other's births?_

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.

as a UCer, my birth gets judged all the time. as a person who advocates for birth choices--including UC--my opinion gets judged all the time. my intelligence, sanity, "responsibility to others" and a whole lot of other things get judged all the time.

seriously, *all the time*. it happens in the NCB community; it happens in the mainstream community. heck, it even happens among/between/from other UCers!

typically, i am told that i am dangerous, dogmatic, foolish, irresponsible, inexperienced, etc.

the next question is--_does that hurt my feelings?_

my feelings are my choice.

there are times when people are being mean. there are times when they are doing so intentionally, and times when it is unintentional.

sometimes i let my feelings get hurt, and sometimes i don't. it just depends upon where i'm coming from that day or moment.

but at the end of the day, i know who i am. i know what i believe and think and feel. i know what my birth experience was--and i know that no one else "being mean to me" or otherwise has that knowledge of who i am.

So, i answered the questions at the beginning of the thread--is there a place for mothers who have had and who will have c-sections in the NCB community? the answer is *yes*. is there a place for their stories and experiences? the answer to that is yes.

but no one seems to have cared about my answers, which sort of hurt my feelings. LOL







(btw, i kid about that it didn't hurt my feelings and i don't care if no one else cares about or shares my opinions on the matter.







)

Thanks, zoebird. You are so eloquent. I have had similar experiences - I chose MWs for my 1st two kids and a HB for my 3rd. I was on the receiving end of a lot of judgment for my decision from the world in general, but I didn't let it affect my sense that I was making the right decision for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political. Discussing the overuse of surgery as a public health problem is completely separate from talking about an individual woman's birth experience, but the two things seem to blur sometimes.
We should support CS mothers without judgment, absolutely, but that should not preclude speaking out against the huge numbers of unnecessary CS being done. Otherwise we could never work to promote better maternity practices without alienating everybody who has ever had a baby. I had a "surprise" CS myself which I feel sure was necessary, yet I am 100% behind public suspicion of CS policy in general, because that suspicion is warranted.

Yes, CS should be seen as a less desirable outcome. It is major surgery, and if it is done, it ought to be because something is very wrong. By definition, that is an undesirable outcome. That should not be seen as insulting to women who have had a CS, or to their babies. Cardiac patients would not be insulted if having heart surgery were seen as much less desirable than never needing heart surgery.

Overuse of obstetric surgery is bad for everyone, not just natural birth advocates. When CS becomes almost routine, women who require a CS are monitored less scrupulously than if the surgery were uncommon. Mothers recovering from surgery are treated less carefully and expected to "snap back" faster, because it is such a common thing. CS gets recommended for very minor variations in labour, because it is no longer seen as a big deal. Efforts to make hospitals more conducive to an easy birth seem less crucial when a third of their patients will be delivered surgically. Attempts to establish appropriate use of birth technology become more difficult. Having a CS has made me more militant about these things, not less so.


I agree wholeheartedly. A c-section, though lifesaving and necessary, is a less desirable outcome for most women. It increases the risk of many complications for both the mother and baby and so we should guard against seeing it as just another birth method, not because it is a badge of being "less than," but b/c normalizing c-sections causes problems for every woman. It is another birth method, but it is less desirable. It does not mean that the woman herself is to blame or less than in any way.

So again, I have to ask - my answer to the OP's question is "C'sections fit into the NB framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

So from those "on the other side," what is your answer to the OP's question?


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Thanks, zoebird. You are so eloquent. I have had similar experiences - I chose MWs for my 1st two kids and a HB for my 3rd. I was on the receiving end of a lot of judgment for my decision from the world in general, but I didn't let it affect my sense that I was making the right decision for me.

I agree wholeheartedly. A c-section, though lifesaving and necessary, is a less desirable outcome for most women. It increases the risk of many complications for both the mother and baby and so we should guard against seeing it as just another birth method, not because it is a badge of being "less than," but b/c normalizing c-sections causes problems for every woman. It is another birth method, but it is less desirable. It does not mean that the woman herself is to blame or less than in any way.

So again, I have to ask - my answer to the OP's question is "C'sections fit into the NB framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

So from those "on the other side," what is your answer to the OP's question?

hi Galatea - can you clarify what you mean by "the other side" for folks to respond to your question? Is it "on the other side" of your response?







Kate


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_ktg_* 
hi Galatea - can you clarify what you mean by "the other side" for folks to respond to your question? Is it "on the other side" of your response?







Kate

Everyone except for me, zoebird, louis, and mamabadger.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?


I'm not sure, but I think I might have answered this way upthread.
I agree with your statement, and feel like it acknowledges much of what has been said, but I don't believe that it is complete.
I would add "Recognition and changes needs to be made about the importance of the physical and emotional environment of the birth, through supporting the feeling of sacredness of birth and first attachment experiences of mama and baby."
I had some good experiences: baby was never more than 10 feet from me. I could see him almost the entire time. He was wheeled out of the operating room in my arms and wasn't separated from me ever after that. (Although we were wheeled into the same room, with partitions, of a family just recovering from a stillbirth. It was really hard to combine the feelings of our sorrow for this family's loss, and our joy and celebration of our new life.

I knew i had a lot of support from these two particular OBs. I truly knew they cared and fought for me in those two weeks prior to scheduling my section, and I knew they were the top two surgeons in the hospital. Yet, they didn't contribute to the feeling of this being a birth. The most glaring thing, and honestly easiest changed was that they started talking to each other about mundane life stuff, as if I was under GA and it was a gallbladder surgery. I didn't need music or lights low, but I really would have preferred not hearing about their golf game. It really changed the tone. My MW was wonderful talking me through it, telling me to focus on her or my husband, tried her best to make it feel like a birth.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I think that is a very good point and falls under the category of how to support women who needed a c-section. In our advocacy, while trying to teach doctors, we need to teach them about the holistic aspects of birth. In my fantasy world, the first rotation a med student does in OB involves lots of time watching respectful births so that they don't get this idea that a birth is just another widget turned out on an assembly line.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanks for clarifying. I read what you wrote as needing to support a woman _after_ the section happened.

I do think education on reducing sections is important, but it is only one piece to the puzzle.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammo2Sammo* 
Thanks for clarifying. I read what you wrote as needing to support a woman _after_ the section happened.

I do think education on reducing sections is important, but it is only one piece to the puzzle.

Good point. I should re-word it into the present tense:

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who need one."


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?

i think that what has caused the most harm is the after-the-fact questioning and doubting and suspicion.

i believe that education to reduce c-sections is a necessary component of encouraging women to think critically about their own care. i think that posters can educate women about natural birth choices while still praising medical intervention that saves lives. i don't feel that they are mutually exclusive.

there have been suggestions on ways to do this effectively by quite a few posters in this thread. i'm actually going to start a new thread following up with some of these suggestions as ways that we can communicate on this topic. i'll post the link as soon as i get it going, toddler pulling on my leg for attention


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political.

This is such a great point. As a CS Mama, I want and need space for both responses to CS. I believe that taking political action to effect change for all women is important, and I firmly believe that helping other women is and will continue to be integral to my healing process.

I also need a safe space to share my story where I know someone won't come barging in swinging their battle axe. It's not important to me that that space be "CS Mamas only" but just that the space be respected for what it is: an open, respectful forum for sharing stories. I'll take up my sword & my shield in another time and another place and I'll join the battle to defend & protect natural birth, the dignity of women, and all of that.

But my story needs a whole different space. It's complex and layered and full of ambiguities and paradoxes and contradictions. I need a lot of space so that it can emerge in its own way. I find that being able to tell my story in my own words is so incredibly healing. And hearing others' stories, with all their complexities and ambiguities, and getting other perspectives is also *so* healing.

I'm not telling my story because I need resolution or because I want an air-tight interpretation of the events. I'm trying to make meaning out of what happened to me. I need permission for my story to evolve, to contract & expand, to simmer and boil over and cook through.

I already birthed my baby...I'm birthing my *story* now, so don't rush me and don't tell me how it's supposed to turn out. Just listen, join me, share your story too. Maybe we'll find that we can relate to one another, and then we won't feel so alone. Maybe our differing perspectives will help both of us move out of darkness and into the light.

And over time, with all of these stories coming together and touching each other, maybe we'll discover that there are some clear directions in which to move together, and we'll take up our battle axes and we'll go fight for what we know is right.

I think a lot of the hurt and frustration that has come up in this thread has happened because some of us arrived to tell to our stories and some of us arrived to sharpen our battle axes. I'm just not sure that you can do both in the same space. That doesn't mean that one is right & the other wrong, or one belongs and the other doesn't. It's just...separate processes, separate needs, separate spaces.

I want to express deep, deep gratitude to ALL the women who've posted here and who keep this conversation alive. Whether this thread continues or not, I hope the conversation will. I've been absolutely obsessed with this thread and have experienced some very deep healing just by being given a space to share what I feel and to be touched by others and their stories. Thank you, thank you, thank you.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

ci mama- that's it. you've explained so wonderfully what the dilemma is. this is what i think several posters where trying to get at when they discussed questioning during birth announcements and the uncomfortableness of being the c-section person in a ddc.

i would hope that everyone would agree that these spaces should be respected and supportive and that questioning someone's birth experience should not be done on an individual basis but rather on a larger scale. macro versus micro.

i've started a new thread about how to communicate inclusively about birth, it's here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1217288


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:

I want to express deep, deep gratitude to ALL the women who've posted here and who keep this conversation alive. Whether this thread continues or not, I hope the conversation will.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i think that what has caused the most harm is the after-the-fact questioning and doubting and suspicion.

i believe that education to reduce c-sections is a necessary component of encouraging women to think critically about their own care. i think that posters can educate women about natural birth choices while still praising medical intervention that saves lives. i don't feel that they are mutually exclusive.

there have been suggestions on ways to do this effectively by quite a few posters in this thread. i'm actually going to start a new thread following up with some of these suggestions as ways that we can communicate on this topic. i'll post the link as soon as i get it going, toddler pulling on my leg for attention










I agree that thoughtless or judgmental "backseat driving" individual c-sections as that is what most people seem to be reacting to in this thread. I do think that we ignoring the elephant in the room, though - that in some cases, there were other options. *Let's posit that every person on MDC had an absolutely necessary c-section and that I am not at all asking or questioning any person here (b/c I'm not.)*

Let's use the very common hypothetical of the woman whose HCP orders an U/S at 38 weeks, pronounces that her baby is "huge, about 9 lbs - we need to schedule you for a c-section first thing Monday morning." So she has a c-section and the baby is 9'1" and now she tells people "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was huge - 9 lbs." As a NCB advocate, this VERY common scenario is a huge stumbling block to lowering the c-section rate. These birth stories are repeated and believed and the idea that 9 lb babies can be delivered vaginally becomes suspect. No particular labor is repeatable or falsifiable, so we really don't know what might have happened in any other situation.

-Her baby might have been able to born vaginally with no problems. That was a potential outcome of her birth.

-Her baby could have had a prolapsed cord while she was at home and died before birth. Another potential outcome of childbirth.

-Her baby might have died during a vaginal birth. Another potential outcome.

-Another potential outcome was that she had the c-section and had an embolism b/c of the surgery and died.

-Another potential outcome was that she was induced to "get him born before he got even bigger" and the induction caused him stress b/c he was not yet due and he did not tolerate the pitocin and so she had to have an emergency c-section.

And so on. Each birth only ends one way, so there is no way to say for sure what might have happened in an "alternate universe." We can't go back and repeat the birth and try it a different way.

But that's where statistics comes in. We can look across a big slice of births and see that c-sections performed before labor has begun have a greater risk of a baby with difficulty breathing and/or who needs to be in the NICU. We can look across that big group of births and see that inductions performed before the mother's body shows signs of readiness have a greater risk of ending in a c-section. And so on - these are statistics that we all can know if we are willing to read. The nice thing about statistics is that it never guarantees you a certain result - it just gives you a guide as to what is more likely - you can then make your own decisions. But you will never get a guarantee.

So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? Does she just nod and smile, knowing that there is a chance that she actually did not need a c-section? What if there is a teenage girl there listening. If I do not say that having a 9 lb baby does not rule out vaginal birth, and that choosing a c-section in this scenario comes with risks, then I am harming this young girl. I am tacitly allowing this girl to absorb the idea that all babies over 8 lbs must be born surgically. As a member of the NCB community, I do not find this acceptable. I am seriously and genuinely asking, what would be acceptable in this situation? How could the NCB advocate deal with this?

Now what if this hypothetical woman is a poster here on MDC and she says, "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was 9 lbs." Then what is okay to say? Now we have a statement that will live on the internet and be read by thousands of women, rather than just vanish into the air. This statement definitely has the potential to harm. What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.

If the answer to both these questions is that we say nothing in either situation, then I have to wonder if some people here would rather nothing be said in order to protect any mother from potential bad feelings. How is the NCB ever supposed to advocate for NCB, or at least, how we can do it without c-section mamas becoming angry, if we cannot address the risks and benefits of any given practice before and during birth?

Do we make a flyer about choices and risks in childbirth and post it on bathroom walls? Do we teach it in health class? Would these be acceptable ways to educate?

The fact remains that most knowledge is transmitted socially, from one person to another, in the form of stories. Humans are social animals and telling stories about ourselves and others is how we communicate our norms and values. The transmission of labor stories has a direct effect on how women are treated in childbirth and what choices we have. 50 years ago, you heard a lot more stories of 9-11 lb babies being born normally, b/c c-sections simply were not done just b/c the baby might be large. Today, you hear many more stories about c-sections being done b/c of a baby being large. It normalizes it and contributes to the rising rate, despite the fact that our hypothetical woman's c-section came with very real risks and may not have been necessary.

I think that "both sides" in this debate (and I know that at least on this thread, "my side" is small) have a responsibility to give a little something. If we are to work together to help women, we are going to have to come to a middle ground. The one overwhelming point that most people seem to agree on in this thread is that questioning any specific birth, whether to the person's face or third-hand without any identifying details, is off-limits b/c some find it hurtful. If I agree to concede this (despite the fact that it will seriously hamper our ability to lower the c-section and unnecessary intervention rate), then I ask that when people are discussing ways to educate women and/or bring down the c-section/intervention rate, that women who have had a c-section refrain from derailing the discussion with defensive statements like "But my baby really was too big to be born vaginally! Stop hurting my feelings!" If the NCB makes a huge effort to never ever make any categorical statements and instead is careful to qualify them with things like, "Elective induction increases the risks of potentially harmful outcomes like x, y, z..." then it is not necessary to see such statements as a personal attack and/or claim that no such education be done.

Perhaps MDC needs a space for c-sections that is support only, and not classified as traumatic. Then the women who need that type of support can get it without fear of being attacked, and the conversations outside that forum about NCB do not have to become wells of hurt mamas reacting defensively to statements that were never meant to hurt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
We go on about how the medical community always belittles mothers by saying "all that matters is a healthy baby and healthy mom." Well, I'm sorry, but that's true, and we _should be using this saying in our community!_

Well, that would probably be what it took to make me stop wasting so much of my time on MDC, so in that sense, it would be great.

"All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" would _rock_, if it _always_ contained the mother's perspective. As it frequently does _not_, it sucks. A "healthy mom" has to be a mom who is _healthy_, not a mom who survived surgery without major complications and has been declared "healthy" by a third party. According to my _doctors_, I'm healthy. According to _me_, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

In any case, that's not what they say a lot of the time - it's what they said to me, but it's not what they always say. A lot of the time it's "all that matters is a healthy baby", which doesn't belittle mothers...it _ignores_ them. Any philosophy that basically says, "if you're baby is healthy, and you're not happy about it, _no matter what you went through or what impact it had on you_, then you're an ungrateful, uncaring selfish mother" is _not_ good for women. That sentiment is out there. Heck, that sentiment is widespread.

Some women can hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" and nod their heads. That's fine. But, for some women, it's just one more slap in the face, because is says clearly that she doesn't count. And, telling her that "all that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" when she isn't healthy - and is often in the process of trying to explain that - is pretty bad, too.

I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?

Well what I said really was:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.

There's a difference between educating women about the very real benefits to a vaginal delivery and that a c-section shouldn't be a first choice because it has serious downsides...and educating women that c-sections are a terrible horrible thing to be avoided at all cost.

So yes, I'm opposed to focusing on c-section avoidance as the critical education a woman needs. I think women need information on ALL their choices.

In other words I advocate for a natural approach to childbirth, not against c-sections. I hope the distinction is at least somewhat clear. The c-section rate is ONE indicator, but it is not the only one.

I am not advocating elective c-sections. In fact I fought PTSD and other demons for months in order to avoid one.

I am saying that when your sole barometer of whether a natural delivery succeeded or not is whether a particular truly can-be-lifesaving procedure was done, you immediately disenfranchise people who truly needed that procedure. I think the NCB is actually missing opportunities to TRULY educate people by focusing solely on a single procedure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I agree that thoughtless or judgmental "backseat driving" individual c-sections as that is what most people seem to be reacting to in this thread... *No particular labor is repeatable or falsifiable, so we really don't know what might have happened in any other situation.*

So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then *what should a NCB advocate say?* Does she just nod and smile, knowing that there is a chance that she actually did not need a c-section?

*What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation?* Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.


The proper response to any woman's birth story is to listen to how she felt about it and then either empathize or congratulate her or both, as appropriate. As you yourself said, it's thoughtless backside driving to do otherwise.

It's just fine to have threads about the very real downside to c-sections, but you shouldn't be attaching that to people's experiences. There are plenty of women who share that their c-sections were difficult, recovery was hard, breastfeeding was hard, etc. You do not have to challenge other women to rethink their experience in order to serve your cause.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.

Amen.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Let's use the very common hypothetical of the woman whose HCP orders an U/S at 38 weeks, pronounces that her baby is "huge, about 9 lbs - we need to schedule you for a c-section first thing Monday morning." So she has a c-section and the baby is 9'1" and now she tells people "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was huge - 9 lbs." As a NCB advocate, this VERY common scenario is a huge stumbling block to lowering the c-section rate.

I actually think it would be an excellent thing if the NCB community would stick to statistics and statistics alone.

Motherhood seems to turn up the 'guilt and judgement' volume to extreme hypersensitivity. Things that others say just to talk, or make conversation, or whatever become amplified, in the mother's perception, into judgemental attacks. I see this all over MDC and I have felt it in myself as well.

I've stayed out of this conversation bc I have not had a C-section (although I am pretty cognizant of the fact that there's a lot that is luck-of-the-draw about labor and I or any other woman could easily join the c/s population with any future baby). I have felt it in another area though - I ended up with low milk supply and had to work through my own feelings about that, and I was actually surprised myself at how often comments that (I know) were meant as help and support, came across to me as judgement and condemnation. And I actually have an unusually thick skin about stuff like this, I would say.

So I think it makes sense to just lay off the commentary when discussing a woman's personal experience. It just isn't necessary. I really think nod-smile-and-support is the way to go here.

Also, regarding misinformation: There is a TON of misinformation about NCB circulating right here on MDC. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen from women saying epidurals are 'bad for the baby,' result in sleepy babies, etc. This has been studied extensively and there is not a whit of literature support for it, nor any physiological reason to suspect it. Even the claim that they (uncombined with other interventions like pit) lead to higher rates of C-section seems to me not to be well supported - different findings from different studies, certainly not anything like consensus. (I think there are good reasons to avoid epidurals but 'bad for the baby' is not one of them - it's more about the mom IMO.)

Am I going around on every thread where a mom says "I put myself through all that pain so I could have an alert unmedicated baby" and correcting her? No, because that would be totally obnoxious. I think it's the same when you talk about C/S. I just think that personal conversations about individual experiences are not the place for political evangelizing. That can still be done, and done effectively, in a general way.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I know for myself, I did educate myself in every possible way to avoid a c/s, I knew of the *cascade of interventions*, from pit, to epi, to laying on ones back while pushing. Every single one. I read and researched.

I went to a Dr who was known for being as natural as possible-that's why I went to her. My hospital in terms of being a hospital is crunchy, so was my Dr. My birthplan was a water birth, I read about that my whole pregnancy-I fully believe that it would have been the best way for me to bring my daughter into this world. I was 41 weeks, facing the possibility of NSTs-induction was never even mentioned to me, even when I was "overdue". As I said before I prepared as much as possible, I took EPO, RRL, walked, envisioned DD's birth and when it all came down, my birth plan took a big turn to the last place I thought it end up, but I did have the knowledge of what all entailed and was educated about my available options.

I personally think that much of the education lies within your own hands. I know for myself my good friend was newly pregnant at the time after DD's birth and I told her to take charge of her own care. Read about birth and educate herself-which she did, she had a hospital birth for her first and a HB for her second. I had another friend who could care less what I said, she is very trusting, she believes that Dr's know best-that's her her choice. She plainly doesn't WANT to educate herself.

What it comes down to for myself is that as mother's to be we need to read and research for ourselves, have someone be our advocate when we are laboring(be it a doula, DH, DP or some other support person). I think that too many times we want to place the blame on being uneducated about options, but in truth much of that research needs to be done, for ones self. At least IMO.

I also don't feel like there is one side or the other, I feel like we are trying to share our experiences in order to blur those lines some.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
What it comes down to for myself is that as mother's to be we need to read and research for ourselves, have someone be our advocate when we are laboring(be it a doula, DH, DP or some other support person). I think that too many times we want to place the blame on being uneducated about options, but in truth much of that research needs to be done, for ones self. At least IMO.


I personally would agree, but the type of person who comes here is usually much more educated than the average person. It is a shame that in order to have a chance at a respectful birth, you often have to read and fight the whole way. If the responsibility for change is on both the women and the health care profession (which I agree with you it is), then does that mean that the women who don't even know there are options to be researched deserve to be treated disrespectfully, or have births that they are not satisfied with or at peace with, or that potentially harmed them or their children?


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

If C-sections were genuinely only done when necessary, I think we would all be grateful that they exist. The rare birth that ended surgically would be an averted disaster, and a triumph for modern medicine. As things stand it really is difficult to separate the procedure from the mindset that leads to most sections, and causes us "natural birth fanatics" to be the ones often looked at askance.
It really is *very* important to separate the procedure from the women who get them. Criticism and judgement will only breed defensiveness. If we can talk about the advantages of vaginal birth, and the statistical risks of c-sections and work to avoid demonisation we have a chance of reaching individuals and making positive changes.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

There's a difference between educating women about the very real benefits to a vaginal delivery and that a c-section shouldn't be a first choice because it has serious downsides...and *educating women that c-sections are a terrible horrible thing to be avoided at all cost*.

So yes, I'm opposed to focusing on c-section avoidance as the critical education a woman needs. I think women need information on ALL their choices.

In other words I advocate for a natural approach to childbirth, not against c-sections. I hope the distinction is at least somewhat clear. The c-section rate is ONE indicator, but it is not the only one.

I am not advocating elective c-sections. In fact I fought PTSD and other demons for months in order to avoid one.

I am saying that *when your sole barometer of whether a natural delivery succeeded or not is whether a particular truly can-be-lifesaving procedure was done*, you immediately disenfranchise people who truly needed that procedure. I think the NCB is actually missing opportunities to TRULY educate people by focusing solely on a single procedure.

The proper response to any woman's birth story is to listen to how she felt about it and then either empathize or congratulate her or both, as appropriate. As you yourself said, it's thoughtless backside driving to do otherwise.

It's just fine to have threads about the very real downside to c-sections, but you shouldn't be attaching that to people's experiences. There are plenty of women who share that their c-sections were difficult, recovery was hard, breastfeeding was hard, etc. You do not have to challenge other women to rethink their experience in order to serve your cause.

I bolded a few lines b/c I think that your personal experience is coloring this (as all our personal experiences color our views.) I would be the first in line to say that c-sections are not to be avoided at all costs and that they definitely save lives. I think that having had such a profound experience as you did, are you perhaps very sensitive to the idea that people not avoid c-sections at all costs? And you also said that you are not advocating elective c-sections. But what about all those c-sections in the middle? The ones that might have gone either way and we'll never know for sure? Must those stay in the "necessary" camp so that no one's feelings could potentially be hurt by a perceived, though not implied, criticism? And if every woman's c-section or intervention story has to stay in the "necessary" camp so that her feelings are not hurt, then how is anyone to know that in many cases, there are/were other options along the way? Like I said to Norasmomma, we may be readers and researchers here, but we are in the minority. Most people get their information from friends, family, acquaintances via talking. How can we educate if we cannot speak up when it comes up?

To address your concerns about singling out c-sections, my statement can perhaps be revised like this (though I have to point out that the title of the thread is "how do *c-sections* fit in):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section and other interventions, while also supporting those who need them."

Would this be satisfactory?


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I know for myself, I did educate myself in every possible way to avoid a c/s, I knew of the *cascade of interventions*, from pit, to epi, to laying on ones back while pushing. Every single one. I read and researched.

I went to a Dr who was known for being as natural as possible-that's why I went to her. My hospital in terms of being a hospital is crunchy, so was my Dr. My birthplan was a water birth, I read about that my whole pregnancy-I fully believe that it would have been the best way for me to bring my daughter into this world. I was 41 weeks, facing the possibility of NSTs-induction was never even mentioned to me, even when I was "overdue". As I said before I prepared as much as possible, I took EPO, RRL, walked, envisioned DD's birth and when it all came down, my birth plan took a big turn to the last place I thought it end up, but I did have the knowledge of what all entailed and was educated about my available options.

I personally think that much of the education lies within your own hands. I know for myself my good friend was newly pregnant at the time after DD's birth and I told her to take charge of her own care. Read about birth and educate herself-which she did, she had a hospital birth for her first and a HB for her second. I had another friend who could care less what I said, she is very trusting, she believes that Dr's know best-that's her her choice. She plainly doesn't WANT to educate herself.

What it comes down to for myself is that as mother's to be we need to read and research for ourselves, have someone be our advocate when we are laboring(be it a doula, DH, DP or some other support person). I think that too many times we want to place the blame on being uneducated about options, but in truth much of that research needs to be done, for ones self. At least IMO.

I also don't feel like there is one side or the other, I feel like we are trying to share our experiences in order to blur those lines some.

Norasmomma, I feel like it's posts like this that leave women who have had c-sections feeling defensive and upset.

I educated myself like crazy for my first birth, and *still* wound up unprepared to cope with hospital policies that led to epidural. Had the attending OB on the floor not been very comfortable with vacuum delivery, I'd have had a c-section. None of what I read prepared me to deal with the ways that hospital policy affected my son's birth. In the reading I did in my second pregnancy, I *still* did not find solutions to those problems, besides, of course, "choose a different hospital." Not everyone has a choice of hospitals. That sucks, and should be changed, but it isn't something that laboring women have the power to take control of.

And while I did choose a hospital and a set of HCPs that gave me the best possible chance of a natural delivery with my subsequent pregnancies, no power on this earth could have made vaginal delivery safe for my daughter. That c-section preserved both of our lives, and I'm glad that the ambulance brought us to a place with such skilled surgeons and such a good NICU.

I've heard it said, and I wish I remembered where, that the best indicator of whether a woman will have a c-section is her HCP's c-section delivery rate. How many women are able to act on that statistic? How much ability to women have in today's medical climate to choose their HCPs? If there's one OB in town with a great c-section rate and s/he's all booked up, is being more educated really going to enable you to take more control? If your insurance dictates what doctors you can see, or hospital practice means that you have no idea who will deliver your baby, what effect is education going to have?

When people talk about how women need to educate themselves for better outcomes, what I and many other women who have had surgical deliveries hear is "you did it wrong." And I simply do not believe that this is the case.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mechella* 

I think you should casually ask her how the birth went and how she felt about it. If she wasn't happy about the c-section maybe you could plant the seed for vbac. But overall I think the best time for advocacy is _before_ the intervention, not after. The postpartum time is such a vulnerable time, and I would hate to see a mother doubt her decision which could lead to regrets and possibly PPD while she is adjusting to surgery, new motherhood, and crazy hormones.


I agree that this is what I would probably do to the hypo mom. But what I actually asked in that first paragraph of questions was, what if this story was coming third-hand, and the mom was not there, but there was a young girl, who has yet to have a baby. Then can I say something? B/c the prevailing attitude here seems to be that as long as the story is attached to a real person, even if the person's decisions are never questioned, even if she is not there, even if no one actually knows her and it is just a friend of a cousin's sister's uncle's roommate, then the NCB STILL cannot say anything to suggest that c-sections are not always necessary for suspected macrosomia?


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? Does she just nod and smile, knowing that there is a chance that she actually did not need a c-section? What if there is a teenage girl there listening. If I do not say that having a 9 lb baby does not rule out vaginal birth, and that choosing a c-section in this scenario comes with risks, then I am harming this young girl. I am tacitly allowing this girl to absorb the idea that all babies over 8 lbs must be born surgically. As a member of the NCB community, I do not find this acceptable. I am seriously and genuinely asking, what would be acceptable in this situation? How could the NCB advocate deal with this?

Now what if this hypothetical woman is a poster here on MDC and she says, "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was 9 lbs." Then what is okay to say? Now we have a statement that will live on the internet and be read by thousands of women, rather than just vanish into the air. This statement definitely has the potential to harm. What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.

If the answer to both these questions is that we say nothing in either situation, then I have to wonder if some people here would rather nothing be said in order to protect any mother from potential bad feelings. How is the NCB ever supposed to advocate for NCB, or at least, how we can do it without c-section mamas becoming angry, if we cannot address the risks and benefits of any given practice before and during birth?
...

I think that "both sides" in this debate (and I know that at least on this thread, "my side" is small) have a responsibility to give a little something. If we are to work together to help women, we are going to have to come to a middle ground. The one overwhelming point that most people seem to agree on in this thread is that questioning any specific birth, whether to the person's face or third-hand without any identifying details, is off-limits b/c some find it hurtful. If I agree to concede this (despite the fact that it will seriously hamper our ability to lower the c-section and unnecessary intervention rate), then I ask that when people are discussing ways to educate women and/or bring down the c-section/intervention rate, that women who have had a c-section refrain from derailing the discussion with defensive statements like "But my baby really was too big to be born vaginally! Stop hurting my feelings!" If the NCB makes a huge effort to never ever make any categorical statements and instead is careful to qualify them with things like, "Elective induction increases the risks of potentially harmful outcomes like x, y, z..." then it is not necessary to see such statements as a personal attack and/or claim that no such education be done.

Perhaps MDC needs a space for c-sections that is support only, and not classified as traumatic. Then the women who need that type of support can get it without fear of being attacked, and the conversations outside that forum about NCB do not have to become wells of hurt mamas reacting defensively to statements that were never meant to hurt.

In your hypothetical conversation about a third person who isn't present (and an impressionable teenager who is), I think an NCB advocate could say something like, "Maybe there was some other issue that we don't know about, since big babies don't automatically mean c-sections". It's true, it's non-judgmental and it leaves room for the VERY REAL possibility that the whole story hasn't been told.

In your hypothetical MDC posting from a mom who has had such a c-section, my opinion would be that if you can't graciously congratulate her on the birth of her baby, don't post on her thread telling her she really could have had a vaginal birth.

The beauty of MDC is that a mom who is in a DDC here has a place to go for information if her OB tells her at 38 weeks that it's time to induce or schedule a section or whatever. But once the intervention has happened, whether or not an individual poster thinks it was necessary is a moot point. Trying to use an individual as a "teaching moment" is just a really mean thing to do.

And yes, I think it would be great to have a space on MDC that is support only for women who have had c-sections. I have very conflicted, ambiguous, difficult-to-define emotions about mine and it would be nice to be able to discuss those things without someone trying to make a point about natural birth via my experience.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
Norasmomma, I feel like it's posts like this that leave women who have had c-sections feeling defensive and upset.

I educated myself like crazy for my first birth, and *still* wound up unprepared to cope with hospital policies that led to epidural. Had the attending OB on the floor not been very comfortable with vacuum delivery, I'd have had a c-section. None of what I read prepared me to deal with the ways that hospital policy affected my son's birth. In the reading I did in my second pregnancy, I *still* did not find solutions to those problems, besides, of course, "choose a different hospital." Not everyone has a choice of hospitals. That sucks, and should be changed, but it isn't something that laboring women have the power to take control of.

And while I did choose a hospital and a set of HCPs that gave me the best possible chance of a natural delivery with my subsequent pregnancies, no power on this earth could have made vaginal delivery safe for my daughter. That c-section preserved both of our lives, and I'm glad that the ambulance brought us to a place with such skilled surgeons and such a good NICU.

I've heard it said, and I wish I remembered where, that the best indicator of whether a woman will have a c-section is her HCP's c-section delivery rate. How many women are able to act on that statistic? How much ability to women have in today's medical climate to choose their HCPs? If there's one OB in town with a great c-section rate and s/he's all booked up, is being more educated really going to enable you to take more control? If your insurance dictates what doctors you can see, or hospital practice means that you have no idea who will deliver your baby, what effect is education going to have?

When people talk about how women need to educate themselves for better outcomes, what I and many other women who have had surgical deliveries hear is "you did it wrong." And I simply do not believe that this is the case.

I find your post fascinating, b/c I also dislike when women say, "I did everything right but..." b/c I think it shows that some of the recrimination is actually self-directed (and some comes from others being rude.) I don't think you can do things "right" or "wrong." Some decisions are likely to have better outcomes, all things being equal, but all things are not equal. Choosing the best hospital/HCP is very often out of the woman's hands. There might be one game in town. Did a woman do something "wrong" b/c she didn't move to have a different birth? Not at all. You can try and try to reduce your risks of anything, and the fact is that chance happens and there are no guarantees. That is why I keep talking about reducing the risks of the various birth interventions and/or c-sections.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
In your hypothetical conversation about a third person who isn't present (and an impressionable teenager who is), I think an NCB advocate could say something like, "Maybe there was some other issue that we don't know about, since big babies don't automatically mean c-sections". It's true, it's non-judgmental and it leaves room for the VERY REAL possibility that the whole story hasn't been told.

In your hypothetical MDC posting from a mom who has had such a c-section, my opinion would be that if you can't graciously congratulate her on the birth of her baby, don't post on her thread telling her she really could have had a vaginal birth.


I think that's a good turn of phrase you have there in the first scenario and I'd like to borrow it.

In the second scenario, I'd agree. But while we're on the topic of people butting in rudely, then what about the situation of an educational thread about ways to increase your chances of the birth you want, while at no time guaranteeing a perfect birth, and then another mama posts on the thread, "But I did x, y and z and it didn't work for me and threads like these make me feel bad."? B/c in reading this forum, this happens, too. It is not always NCB advocates who are charging in and derailing the point of a thread.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

I've been reading this thread from the top, and I wanted to post in support of being less judgmental about other moms' birth experiences. I've had two kids epidural-free, in the hospital, one with pit and one without. So I'm not the most "natural" of the NCBers, but I've been spared the c-section process. However, I know quite a few people IRL who have had sections, including a surprisingly high number in my natural parenting mothers' group. And most of those moms believe their sections were necessary, though they all have varying levels of guilt about them.

The thing is, I have never (nor will I ever) disparaged or questioned or second-guessed whether any of these moms may have had an unnecessary section or whether they did/did not do everything right and thus brought the c-section event upon themselves. Not only is that obnoxious and disrespectful, it's not something I CAN adequately judge, because I wasn't there, and I don't know all the details. I suspect not all these sections were strictly "necessary", but it's NOT MY CALL to make. What I prefer to do is LISTEN to the mothers' stories. I don't ask pointed questions designed to ferret out whether this or that intervention was truly necessary. (I see this ALL THE TIME in my moms' group in regards to breastfeeding - people are VERY judgmental about this. I even have one friend who basically hates another mom in the group because she doesn't bf...but she never bothered to find out that this other mom tried hard, and wore an SNS for two months before finally giving up. And frankly, I've seen moms alienated from the group for not breastfeeding, never mind their reasons.)

So I'm all for listening to a mother's story without nitpicking the details. I do think it's possible to discuss changing the birth culture without alienating moms who have sections. I have a friend who recently had a section after laboring for 30 hours (with a doula I recommended who is very experienced and whom I trust deeply). I'm not privy to all the details, and I'm not going to pry. I did, however, notice that when I posted the recent study about the California maternal death rates going up and added a note about needing to reduce c-section rates, she didn't post a comment (unusual for her). I'm willing to bet she feels sad/angry/attacked/disappointed about having a section after working toward a natural birth. And I can't blame her. I hate to see other moms feel that way when it's totally unnecessary.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I think that's a good turn of phrase you have there in the first scenario and I'd like to borrow it.

In the second scenario, I'd agree. But while we're on the topic of people butting in rudely, then what about the situation of an educational thread about ways to increase your chances of the birth you want, while at no time guaranteeing a perfect birth, and then another mama posts on the thread, "But I did x, y and z and it didn't work for me and threads like these make me feel bad."? B/c in reading this forum, this happens, too. It is not always NCB advocates who are charging in and derailing the point of a thread.

You're welcome to borrow it.









As for your other question, I don't know what to tell you. I think it's valid for a woman to say to another woman that the hypnobirthing cds or the mantras or the positive thinking or the free-standing birth center choice didn't work out for her. As you pointed out, we're social animals. We share stories. They don't all have to be the same story.

If someone butts into your educational thread and projects her anger and sadness about her birth outcome, there's not a whole lot you can do. Maybe have the kindness to acknowledge her pain? Realize that she's coming from a difficult moment in her life? After all, we can only control our own actions, not the actions of others.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i have more to say but i am naking and bouncing to get dd to sleep









galatea- thank you for returning to this conversation with an open heart. it means so much to me that this thread is moving forward in such a positive way. i LOVE it that you brought up compromising because that's what we do with our kids to solve problems, we should tey it ourselves.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I bolded a few lines b/c I think that your personal experience is coloring this (as all our personal experiences color our views.) I would be the first in line to say that c-sections are not to be avoided at all costs and that they definitely save lives. I think that having had such a profound experience as you did, are you perhaps very sensitive to the idea that people not avoid c-sections at all costs? And you also said that you are not advocating elective c-sections. But what about all those c-sections in the middle? The ones that might have gone either way and we'll never know for sure? Must those stay in the "necessary" camp so that no one's feelings could potentially be hurt by a perceived, though not implied, criticism? And if every woman's c-section or intervention story has to stay in the "necessary" camp so that her feelings are not hurt, then how is anyone to know that in many cases, there are/were other options along the way? Like I said to Norasmomma, we may be readers and researchers here, but we are in the minority. Most people get their information from friends, family, acquaintances via talking. How can we educate if we cannot speak up when it comes up?

To address your concerns about singling out c-sections, my statement can perhaps be revised like this (though I have to point out that the title of the thread is "how do *c-sections* fit in):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section and other interventions, while also supporting those who need them."

Would this be satisfactory?

Of course my personal experience colours my views. That's why I shared it in the first place - and I would only really come into a thread like this one to share it; I don't go posting in response to every woman who states her birth plan #1 goal to be "avoid a c-section." - even though it was that thinking that led in part to the death of my daughter, coupled with a long string of errors and circumstances.

But reducing the c-section rate was extremely important to my birthing centre. And I chose that hospital because it was important to me. And the results were catastrophic. That reality didn't make me an elective c-section advocate. But it did make me hyper-aware of the _intense_ pressure on women and on teams not to "fail" - and that's not empowering or accurate.

I kind of feel (6 years on now) that if we could encorporate my story into women's understanding of birth then there might be more understanding about how women who have c-sections are not necessarily deluded and the result would be a strengthened understanding of the reality of in-labour decision making. To be clear, I think lots of people have that - but then their decision making is questioned after the fact.

On to the less personal issues -

This "middle ground" is touchy. I agree that c-section rates have gotten too high (in some areas) and that reducing them is a good thing. But I really, really don't think that challenging women on their individual experiences after the fact is the way to do it.

I don't think it's effective or respectful.

I think the best time to educate women is when they are asking or looking for information. I _do not_ think the time to educate women is when they are discussing their actual delivery, unless it's a really reflective discussion where the woman herself is asking.

For one thing, it's not going to be effective if the woman herself is saying "it was necessary!" and you're saying "no it might not have been." If your concern is observers, well people will probably fairly correctly believe that the woman herself has a better idea than you do, and as a result will tune you out - perhaps permanently.

If you were speaking with birth professionals in a professional forum about a case, that would be one thing. But not in front of the woman whose case it is.

For your statement, mine would be: C-sections fit into a natural birth framework when the risk of injury or death to the child and/or mother warrants the risks, complications, and recovery of the major abdominal surgery that it is.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

I was away from a proper keyboard yesterday, but here's my mishmashed collection of thoughts on this topic.

1. All birth professionals should strive to be as compassionate and respectful as possible when discussing ALL aspects of birth, whether venue, pain management, position, or interventions. This goes for talking about past experiences and future. Some mothers are going to have the best birth experiences completely unmedicated and intervention free, and some are going to have the best experience with extensive management. There is no universal "best birth", but all moms are deserving of compassion and respect about their choices. Inflammatory language should definitely be kept as far away from the discussion as possible. Don't use terms like "the dead baby card" or "it's just fear". IME there is no such thing as "just" fear. Fear is our most base emotion. More primal than love. It is what keeps us individually alive against Mother Nature's supreme indifference. The solution to fear based decision making is not to deride someone for making fear based decisions. It is to work to remove those fears and prevent those fears from occurring in the future. And to acknowledge that sometimes the decision made in fear is the best decision a person can make.

2. Goals and expectations should be clearly laid out as soon as possible. If the care team has as the ultimate goal of "Prevent a C-Section at all costs" their course of action is going to be different than if their goal is "Delivery within 24 Hours of ROM at all costs". Most moms are going to want their care team to be working some middle ground there. But everyone should know where they stand.

3. Moms should get to really know the playbook. It is all well and good for us to engage in gossip and speculation over what will lead to a c-section and to talk about the "cascade of interventions". But that doesn't give you any real understanding of the playbook. What are the care teams key indicators of fetal distress? What is the management protocol for unreasurring fht? Mec? ProlongedROM? When will operative vd be attempted? What kind? etc.

As for how NCB advocacy can be more inclusive of c-section moms. Respect. Respect. and more Respect. First of all, I don't think the focus should be How Do We Prevent More C-Sections or What You Can Do To Prevent C-Section.

I think the focus should be - How to ensure that all mothers can look back on their births and say they made the best decisions they could in the situation no matter the outcome. How can mothers have more trust in their care teams to reduce second guessing after the fact. This is going to come down to bedside manner and communication skills.

Earlier a PP said that your care provider might care about you, but they might not care about getting you what you want (IE an unmedicated vaginal birth). I think that is both accurate and inaccurate. IME most hospital care teams don't have a preference for how you deliver. They will do what they can to get you what you want, but they have a goal that might not be Vaginal Delivery At Any Cost. They have people that they report to, and jobs that they need to protect. I think the key is for all parties to treat each other with respect and keep the dialog going vs getting instantly antagonistic with each other.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
Norasmomma, I feel like it's posts like this that leave women who have had c-sections feeling defensive and upset.

I educated myself like crazy for my first birth, and *still* wound up unprepared to cope with hospital policies that led to epidural. Had the attending OB on the floor not been very comfortable with vacuum delivery, I'd have had a c-section. None of what I read prepared me to deal with the ways that hospital policy affected my son's birth. In the reading I did in my second pregnancy, I *still* did not find solutions to those problems, besides, of course, "choose a different hospital." Not everyone has a choice of hospitals. That sucks, and should be changed, but it isn't something that laboring women have the power to take control of.

And while I did choose a hospital and a set of HCPs that gave me the best possible chance of a natural delivery with my subsequent pregnancies, no power on this earth could have made vaginal delivery safe for my daughter. That c-section preserved both of our lives, and I'm glad that the ambulance brought us to a place with such skilled surgeons and such a good NICU.

I've heard it said, and I wish I remembered where, that the best indicator of whether a woman will have a c-section is her HCP's c-section delivery rate. How many women are able to act on that statistic? How much ability to women have in today's medical climate to choose their HCPs? If there's one OB in town with a great c-section rate and s/he's all booked up, is being more educated really going to enable you to take more control? If your insurance dictates what doctors you can see, or hospital practice means that you have no idea who will deliver your baby, what effect is education going to have?

When people talk about how women need to educate themselves for better outcomes, what I and many other women who have had surgical deliveries hear is "you did it wrong." And I simply do not believe that this is the case.

That was never my intention. I myself was completely educated about birth and also wound up with a c/s and a vaginal delivery wasn't going to happen when my uterus stopped contracting and my DD was wedged so far into the left side of my pelvis that when they first tried to get her out they couldn't. I never could have a VBAC after her because of my T incision, trust me all the education in the world couldn't have changed that. My point is some people don't care to educate themselves on ANY options and in turn put all their trust into this obviously flawed system.

My Dr had a low rate of c/s, our hospital has a 25% rate which compared to many is low. She had actually had a baby die while I was pregnant due to the mother's refusal of a c/s and she consented and let the mother dictate her son's birth, and unfortunately he did not live. I live in a small town I not only know the statistics, but the family it happened to.

I don't know why saying someone being educated says they did things wrong. I guess I just don't agree with that.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
According to my _doctors_, I'm healthy. According to _me_, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

Yours. Of course.

That's the thing about "healthy mama healthy baby" that may be not fully understood all of the time... there are many ways to interpret "healthy."

A woman who has been brutalized by an OB or midwife (I've read stories of both kinds of care providers reaching up and ripping out placentas for no rational reason and with complete disregard, for example) during a vaginal delivery, but heals up nicely and has no physical problems, but deals with nightmares and post-traumatic stress problems and now is terrified of having more children... that's not "healthy."

Same goes for damage, physical and mental, during c-section OR vaginal birth. Some women should have gotten c-sections and didn't. Some women shouldn't have gotten c-sections and did. And when those situations result in harm to the woman (of any kind), that birth did not reach the goal of "healthy mama, healthy baby."

It's true that the "healthy baby" part comes first for most people-- I don't think that if someone with magic powers to see the future walked up to anyone and said "You need to deliver this way, or your baby will die," that woman would say "nah, I'd rather have the birth experience I want." The problem is that no one has the magic powers to see the future. And when a care provider says that, well, too often there are stories of care providers "pulling the dead baby card" when it's a lie or exaggeration, so now we all have a Cry-Wolf complex. It's a mess.

Bottom line, yes, it's important to have a healthy baby. But that doesn't mean that you should be expected to needlessly sacrifice your health and just "suck it up." Women matter, too. And "healthy" is not what anyone tells you you are, it's how you feel.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
This "middle ground" is touchy. I agree that c-section rates have gotten too high (in some areas) and that reducing them is a good thing. But I really, really don't think that challenging women on their individual experiences after the fact is the way to do it.

I don't think it's effective or respectful.

I think the best time to educate women is when they are asking or looking for information. I _do not_ think the time to educate women is when they are discussing their actual delivery, unless it's a really reflective discussion where the woman herself is asking.

I agree completely. If the CS really was unnecessary, badgering her about it would not only blaming the victim, but revictimizing the victim. Maybe believing the surgery was necessary helps her recover from it emotionally. It worked for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
"All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" would _rock_, if it _always_ contained the mother's perspective. As it frequently does _not_, it sucks. A "healthy mom" has to be a mom who is _healthy_, not a mom who survived surgery without major complications and has been declared "healthy" by a third party. According to my _doctors_, I'm healthy. According to _me_, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

In any case, that's not what they say a lot of the time - it's what they said to me, but it's not what they always say. A lot of the time it's "all that matters is a healthy baby", which doesn't belittle mothers...it _ignores_ them.

Yes, this is one problem with that phrase. There are some pretty horrific postpartum situations which HCP's classify as "healthy mother and healthy baby."

Also, "what matters is a healthy mother and healthy baby" is not always used in a literal, benign way. It can be medical code for "accept whatever your OB recommends." I have often heard the phrase used to argue against home birth or water birth, for example: that women are too concerned with their happy birth experience, when "all that matters..."


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Maybe believing the surgery was necessary helps her recover from it emotionally. It worked for me.

Huh, that's another angle that I had never thought of-- and perhaps is part of the "healthy mama" idea in a way-- I don't think that the "healthy mama" part of the equation should end when the pregnancy ends. Post-partum support is just as much a part of it and just as important, because after all "the birth" as an experience includes the recovery, however short or long it may take.

And probably for many women, this is true, people wanting to ask questions and figure out how "necessary" or not the surgery was, may be more painful than helpful in same cases.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?

I agree and disagree with your statement & approach because its a multi-faceted problem here in the US, with multiple offenders and also the approach of educating women on how to reduce their risk of c-sections has often consisted of only scare-tactics of the medical community instead of enlisting them as allies in the battle.

Since I disagree with some of your answer - I will address the OPs original set of questions set forth to us:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i've had this thought several times on reading recent threads and it's an issue i'd like to explore. i can EASILY see it getting heated so please remember to be respectful of other's views.

as we are on mdc, i think most of us feel "natural is better" and that birthing with less unnecessary interventions is better. obviously, a c-section is the ultimate intervention in birth and they are sometimes performed unnecessarily. how can the issues be untangled so that unnecessary c-sections can be discussed without casting such a wide net that anyone that has had a c-section is met with the underlying suspicion that their c-section was not necessary?

there is also an idea that women should "trust their bodies" and that their birth will go as nature intended. the consequences of this can be that when birth does not go well, these women's bodies are failures. i have seen it expressed on here several times that this can cause great amounts of anguish and guilt.

so, my questions:
*1. is there a way that natural birth advocates can include c-section mothers? if not, then what does this mean for those women that have had c-sections?
2. is the bigger goal to support mothers or to support natural birth?
3. what do you do when supporting natural birth gets in the way of supporting mothers?
4. how can the idea of trusting your body be reconciled when your body doesn't do what everyone has been telling you it is natural for your body to do? _is_ that woman's body a failure*?

Numbering/bolding is mine to address each question:
1. Yes there are opportunities for natural (here I am defining natural as a intervention free, vaginal birth) birth advocates (NBA) to include c-section moms. These opportunities include having them speak at birth prep/education classes regarding their experiences, providing post-partum care/listening to them, encouraging mother-baby bonding methods such as skin-to-skin contact, breastfeeding, sketching ideas out in a birth plan to ensure the birth process can still be OWNED by the mother (if something goes awry). Keeping c-section moms out of the process of NB advocacy (if they want to be included), puts a huge division in the birth community for any type of effective change we would want to make.
2. The bigger goal should be to support mothers in owning their birth process how they define it and exploring all options of birth with them.
3. N/A because in my mind when you support mothers in owning their birth process you will end up supporting some variation of the natural birth process
4. This is a question which is difficult for any mother who has had a c-section to reconcile with and make peace or become empowered. This is the area which I think NBAs have a wonderful opportunity to move this forward, but it needs to be done without guilt about previous choices or a demeaning implication that they were not educated enough about the birth process. I think many of us can go "DUH!?!" to that since apparently you can have a birth prep class which lasts for 8 hours. Again this goes back to expectations in the US, exposure of birthing options in the US, empowerment of birthing moms, education of the HCPs, understanding the healthcare system. Changing the c-section rate is not just with educating the women in the US about options, but everyone involved in birth.

ok now i have kidlets begging for attention which is overdue from me!







I'll try to catch up more on this later.
Kate


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

I don't think there is any room for armchair comments on another woman's birth, period. Not when hearing a PP mother talk about her birth, not when gossiping third party with others. It's just demeaning to women to assume YOU, who were not even there, know more about her birth process than she does, her HCP does, etc.

I frankly think the harm you do to those mothers is infinitely more of an issue than the potential harm of a teenager knowing nothing about birth hearing about someone's birth experience. There are other times that she could be exposed to NCB information. It's just tacky, rude, and insensitive to *use* someone else's very personal and heartfelt experience as a mere point in your argument. And in fact you may very well turn her off to the NCB community if she thinks that everyone in it is so preachy that they would use a joyous announcement of a birth as a time to "educate."

There are many, many opportunities to talk to women that don't involve commenting on other's births. I work at an especially fertile school and I manage to find ways to talk about birth to other teachers without using any woman's examples.

- Talk about statistics at area hospitals to support what you want.
- Talk about my experience as a doula in those hospitals in a general sense-- do they have strong LCs PP? Do they allow babies and mothers to be together as much as possible? etc.
- *If asked* talk about my experience working with the HB midwives in my city and how wonderfully amazing my own is. But honestly I do not talk about HB a ton if it's not something the woman is interested in. She is entitled to research voluntarily without me butting in and telling her my way is the best way. Talk about inbetween options we have here-- a free-standing BC, a hospital BC, etc, if asked.

Maybe it's just me, but I've had a lot of luck with helping women find their own path this way.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
Huh, that's another angle that I had never thought of-- and perhaps is part of the "healthy mama" idea in a way-- I don't think that the "healthy mama" part of the equation should end when the pregnancy ends. Post-partum support is just as much a part of it and just as important, because after all "the birth" as an experience includes the recovery, however short or long it may take.

And probably for many women, this is true, people wanting to ask questions and figure out how "necessary" or not the surgery was, may be more painful than helpful in same cases.

Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
I don't think there is any room for armchair comments on another woman's birth, period. Not when hearing a PP mother talk about her birth, not when gossiping third party with others. It's just demeaning to women to assume YOU, who were not even there, know more about her birth process than she does, her HCP does, etc.

I frankly think the harm you do to those mothers is infinitely more of an issue than the potential harm of a teenager knowing nothing about birth hearing about someone's birth experience. There are other times that she could be exposed to NCB information. It's just tacky, rude, and insensitive to *use* someone else's very personal and heartfelt experience as a mere point in your argument. And in fact you may very well turn her off to the NCB community if she thinks that everyone in it is so preachy that they would use a joyous announcement of a birth as a time to "educate."

Yes! I've been trying to figure out how to say this all day. I think the chances of hurting a mother's feelings are much higher than the chance of making a difference in a bystander who is hearing the conversation, or some women possibly lurking on a message board. And really, lets be honest, they aren't going to decide, hey, you can deliver a 9 lb baby vaginally! based on something someone else jumps in to say. Especially if it's their word against the new mother, and the OB or HCP who tells them this. In an ideal world, all women will have providers who know what they are talking about and don't push unnecessary c-sections - but again, you can be informed beyond informed, and still not get the vaginal birth you planned for.

So, I really don't think the time and place to correct what you determine misinformation is while another woman is sharing about the day her baby was born. IF she is confused, and asking for others opinions or trying to figure it out to plan for a future birth - then fine, give her what you got - but as it's been said before: there's a time and a place. If you can't discern when it's appropriate to mass educated - well, then, better be safe than sorry and not say anything at all.

There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.

You have said my exact thoughts on this. and I agree with your last paragraph. Its odd when that encounter happens (as it does oh so often sometimes) because I walk away with when did I ask for help or invite that unsolicited advice when discussing my new baby?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Yes! I've been trying to figure out how to say this all day. I think the chances of hurting a mother's feelings are much higher than the chance of making a difference in a bystander who is hearing the conversation, or some women possibly lurking on a message board. And really, lets be honest, they aren't going to decide, hey, you can deliver a 9 lb baby vaginally! based on something someone else jumps in to say. Especially if it's their word against the new mother, and the OB or HCP who tells them this. In an ideal world, all women will have providers who know what they are talking about and don't push unnecessary c-sections - but again, you can be informed beyond informed, and still not get the vaginal birth you planned for.

So, I really don't think the time and place to correct what you determine misinformation is while another woman is sharing about the day her baby was born. IF she is confused, and asking for others opinions or trying to figure it out to plan for a future birth - then fine, give her what you got - but as it's been said before: there's a time and a place. If you can't discern when it's appropriate to mass educated - well, then, better be safe than sorry and not say anything at all.

There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".

I like this too - c/s moms fit in when we decide to support all mothers in becoming confident mothers in their birth choices/outcomes.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, that would probably be what it took to make me stop wasting so much of my time on MDC, so in that sense, it would be great.

"All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" would _rock_, if it _always_ contained the mother's perspective. As it frequently does _not_, it sucks. A "healthy mom" has to be a mom who is _healthy_, not a mom who survived surgery without major complications and has been declared "healthy" by a third party. According to my _doctors_, I'm healthy. According to _me_, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

In any case, that's not what they say a lot of the time - it's what they said to me, but it's not what they always say. A lot of the time it's "all that matters is a healthy baby", which doesn't belittle mothers...it _ignores_ them. Any philosophy that basically says, "if you're baby is healthy, and you're not happy about it, _no matter what you went through or what impact it had on you_, then you're an ungrateful, uncaring selfish mother" is _not_ good for women. That sentiment is out there. Heck, that sentiment is widespread.

Some women can hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" and nod their heads. That's fine. But, for some women, it's just one more slap in the face, because is says clearly that she doesn't count. And, telling her that "all that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" when she isn't healthy - and is often in the process of trying to explain that - is pretty bad, too.

I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
Yours. Of course.

That's the thing about "healthy mama healthy baby" that may be not fully understood all of the time... there are many ways to interpret "healthy."

A woman who has been brutalized by an OB or midwife (I've read stories of both kinds of care providers reaching up and ripping out placentas for no rational reason and with complete disregard, for example) during a vaginal delivery, but heals up nicely and has no physical problems, but deals with nightmares and post-traumatic stress problems and now is terrified of having more children... that's not "healthy."

Same goes for damage, physical and mental, during c-section OR vaginal birth. Some women should have gotten c-sections and didn't. Some women shouldn't have gotten c-sections and did. And when those situations result in harm to the woman (of any kind), that birth did not reach the goal of "healthy mama, healthy baby."

It's true that the "healthy baby" part comes first for most people-- I don't think that if someone with magic powers to see the future walked up to anyone and said "You need to deliver this way, or your baby will die," that woman would say "nah, I'd rather have the birth experience I want." The problem is that no one has the magic powers to see the future. And when a care provider says that, well, too often there are stories of care providers "pulling the dead baby card" when it's a lie or exaggeration, so now we all have a Cry-Wolf complex. It's a mess.

Bottom line, yes, it's important to have a healthy baby. But that doesn't mean that you should be expected to needlessly sacrifice your health and just "suck it up." Women matter, too. And "healthy" is not what anyone tells you you are, it's how you feel.

"Healthy" is all-inclusive, both mentally and physically. Being bullied or coerced into an unnecessary c-section doesn't lead to healthy moms. Being treated badly doesn't lead to healthy moms. I've read several of your posts (StormBride) over the last year, since joining (your story has always stood out to me because of how well and eloquently you express yourself) and IMO (not that my opinion matters, since yours and yours alone is what matters) you wouldn't qualify as the shiny, happy mom who is healthy and has no excuse to complain. Your care providers ignored your wishes, didn't listen to you, and you've had some physical complications. That's why I stand by my statement, "all that matters is a healthy mom and healthy baby." The medical community might twist that by pulling the dead baby card, but that doesn't make the statement less true.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Do we make a flyer about choices and risks in childbirth and post it on bathroom walls? Do we teach it in health class? Would these be acceptable ways to educate?

The fact remains that most knowledge is transmitted socially, from one person to another, in the form of stories. Humans are social animals and telling stories about ourselves and others is how we communicate our norms and values. The transmission of labor stories has a direct effect on how women are treated in childbirth and what choices we have. 50 years ago, you heard a lot more stories of 9-11 lb babies being born normally, b/c c-sections simply were not done just b/c the baby might be large. Today, you hear many more stories about c-sections being done b/c of a baby being large. It normalizes it and contributes to the rising rate, despite the fact that our hypothetical woman's c-section came with very real risks and may not have been necessary.

I think that "both sides" in this debate (and I know that at least on this thread, "my side" is small) have a responsibility to give a little something. If we are to work together to help women, we are going to have to come to a middle ground. The one overwhelming point that most people seem to agree on in this thread is that questioning any specific birth, whether to the person's face or third-hand without any identifying details, is off-limits b/c some find it hurtful. If I agree to concede this (despite the fact that it will seriously hamper our ability to lower the c-section and unnecessary intervention rate), then I ask that when people are discussing ways to educate women and/or bring down the c-section/intervention rate, that women who have had a c-section refrain from derailing the discussion with defensive statements like "But my baby really was too big to be born vaginally! Stop hurting my feelings!" If the NCB makes a huge effort to never ever make any categorical statements and instead is careful to qualify them with things like, "Elective induction increases the risks of potentially harmful outcomes like x, y, z..." then it is not necessary to see such statements as a personal attack and/or claim that no such education be done.

I'm choosing not to address the hypo woman story, but I want to continue the discussion of the fact knowledge is transmitted socially which feeds into the larger fact of normalizing c-sections. We have to admit, its not just the birth story from a woman or a group of women, the ideas and uses of narcotic pain medication, induction methods and ultimately c-sectioning has gained normalization in US society is due to some of the "reality" TV shows (the baby story, bringing home baby) or books, celebrities & their birth stories which often do not highlight natural (again defined as intervention-free, vaginal delivery) births.

Also we need as consumers to demand and advocate for the research which is needed in birth. I'll be honest - its a b!%&$! to do human subject research involving pregnant women & neonates and to get it published (you need IRB approval) but maternal outcomes, neonatal outcomes, vbac bans and all of those concerns which need to be changed are important pieces in shaping the education and changing the landscape for our future HCPs.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 

So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? D

Now what if this hypothetical woman is a poster here on MDC and she says, "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was 9 lbs." Then what is okay to say? Now we have a statement that will live on the internet and be read by thousands of women, rather than just vanish into the air. This statement definitely has the potential to harm. What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.

If the answer to both these questions is that we say nothing in either situation, then I have to wonder if some people here would rather nothing be said in order to protect any mother from potential bad feelings. How is the NCB ever supposed to advocate for NCB, or at least, how we can do it without c-section mamas becoming angry, if we cannot address the risks and benefits of any given practice before and during birth?

There are two things people learn from - social stories, and authoritative reports.

re: Authoritative REports - The first thing to do is to work hard to get the flipside to the myths that *some* OBs and hospitals perpetuate out there. Get the authoritative reports going. And to do that means being willing to take science and medical research *seriously*, rather than treating it as the enemy. Want to build a culture where that cascade of interventions isn't a standard practice? Get real evidence-based stuff out there. No "Your body won't grow a baby it can't birth." Pull actual evidence on positioning, or pelvic openings, etc.

your hypotheticals, meanwhile, are social stories. The anecdotal evidence that so many people cling to. And the answer to that? _Tell your own story_. Tell other stories that you know. Tell them without twisting the "I did it BETTER." Knife.

You're at someone's house and you hear that "Oh, you can't deliver a 9-pounder vaginally!" You say, "Hey, I had a 10-pounder and it wasn''t so bad! I didn't even need stitches! I think it's because I stayed upright in labor - I read someplace that squatting opens your pelvis up 40% more!"

The birth story on MDC where someone says they "needed" a c-section?
I still think the only answer to that is "What a beautiful baby! Heal fast and enjoy your babymoon!"

Further hypothetical: Someone on Birth and Beyond posts a question about delivering big babies. The *same* person mentioned above, who posted their birth story about the "necessary" section that you doubt was so necessary, posts to it, saying "Oh, my baby was 9 pounds and I just didn't progress for 6 hours...."

There, in a general discussion, you *do* share your experience and knowlege again. Don't quote the person to imply they're wrong. Don't use them as an example. But respond to the OP with your own experience. Build a library of *other* viewpoints for those future googlers to read. Don't judge, don't comment, just share your own testimony. Or if you want, refer to those alternate, NCB-supporting Authoritative Voices. "The one centimeter per hour rule is really quite arbitrary - women dilate at different rates, for example..."

But no, a sensitive, hormonal new mother who is still trying to find her way and get her bearings and establish breastfeeding does NOT need her birth story greeted with all the ways she screwed up. No way, no how.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

But the one thing still not addressed here, to take savithny's post as the most recent example, is if we do this:

Quote:

Further hypothetical: Someone on Birth and Beyond posts a question about delivering big babies. The *same* person mentioned above, who posted their birth story about the "necessary" section that you doubt was so necessary, posts to it, saying "Oh, my baby was 9 pounds and I just didn't progress for 6 hours...."

There, in a general discussion, you *do* share your experience and knowlege again. Don't quote the person to imply they're wrong. Don't use them as an example. But respond to the OP with your own experience. Build a library of *other* viewpoints for those future googlers to read. Don't judge, don't comment, just share your own testimony. Or if you want, refer to those alternate, NCB-supporting Authoritative Voices. "The one centimeter per hour rule is really quite arbitrary - women dilate at different rates, for example..."
What almost inevitably happens is that the mom in question gets upset and either replies on the thread that I am attacking her by presenting other possible outcomes of a 9 lb baby, or maybe goes and talks about how NCBAs are so hurtful and thoughtless in how they advocate for NCB. What I am desperately asking for here is some acknowledgment that even if a NCBA advocate sticks to general knowledge, personal and anecdotal experience, and never treads onto that mom's story, the mom often takes it personally b/c of unresolved issues within herself about the birth. I see it happen all the time here and in real life. And nowhere will people take responsibility for this. Apparently, according to people here, there are TONS of nasty NCBAs out there who will take a mom to task personally, but there are absolutely NO c-section mamas who ever take a general discussion personally [sarcasm absolutely intended.]

I feel like this discussion has been entirely one-sided - that NCBAs must ignore all real-life examples of births that did not leave the mother satisfied or at peace - but that c-section mamas have absolutely NO responsibility to own their feelings and perhaps not tread onto discussions which have a high chance of upsetting them.

Quote:

Maybe believing the surgery was necessary helps her recover from it emotionally. It worked for me.
Everyone is entitled to their feelings and to process them however works. What you cannot expect is that others join you in that process, especially not if it hurts others. Believe and feel whatever you want - it is your right as a human being - but when you assert that any woman's chosen beliefs about her birth are more important than anything else and that others must join her in them, even if they are contributing to the normalization of c-sections, rising insurance rates, and other consequences that directly hurt others - that, you do NOT have a right to do. I absolutely reject the idea that in order for me to have my feelings, others have to share them and agree with them.

(I am speaking from personal experience here - a long time ago, something happened in my family that had a lot of negative consequences. For awhile, I chose to blame one person, and to believe and say to others and this person that if it weren't for this person's actions, my life would be better. Though this made me feel good at first, it eventually started to feel dirty. I had to acknowledge that though he had done bad things, I made a choice to blame him and absolve myself, but that in reality, I always played a part. And my choosing to blame him had direct, real-life consequences - it damaged every relationship he had within the family, and it took a long time to rebuild. My comfortable feelings were not worth what my chosen beliefs had done to our family.)


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Honestly, I am done with this. I am tired of the lack of personal responsibility for feelings and choices. I am responsible for my feelings here, and I have chosen to keep coming back to try to convince people who choose to be offended by general statements, and who keep arguing with the ghost of the NCBA who was nasty to them, and then paint all NCB advocacy with that brush. But I am done. No one here is at fault for the poor communication except for the NCBAs, and c-section mamas with tough emotions to process play absolutely NO part in the poor communication. It would really be better if we never ever ever talked about c-sections and birth interventions, b/c someone might psychically hear the conversation and be hurt, and there is a fundamental human right to never ever ever have any bad feelings, no matter how we have to twist reality to avoid them.

So I am choosing to mosey on out and not come back b/c this is NOT how I want today to go.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Everyone is entitled to their feelings and to process them however works. What you cannot expect is that others join you in that process, especially not if it hurts others. Believe and feel whatever you want - it is your right as a human being - but when you assert that any woman's chosen beliefs about her birth are more important than anything else and that others must join her in them, *even if they are contributing to the normalization of c-sections, rising insurance rates, and other consequences that directly hurt others - that, you do NOT have a right to do.* I absolutely reject the idea that in order for me to have my feelings, others have to share them and agree with them.

I realize you've said you're not coming back, but in case you are - frankly, you're putting that baggage into the discussion.

Telling the truth about one's delivery, however one has understood that, is not the enemy of the NBC. If it is, then frankly, it is the NCB is that in the wrong.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Honestly, I am done with this. I am tired of the lack of personal responsibility for feelings and choices. I am responsible for my feelings here, and I have chosen to keep coming back to try to convince people who choose to be offended by general statements, and who keep arguing with the ghost of the NCBA who was nasty to them, and then paint all NCB advocacy with that brush. But I am done. No one here is at fault for the poor communication except for the NCBAs, and c-section mamas with tough emotions to process play absolutely NO part in the poor communication. It would really be better if we never ever ever talked about c-sections and birth interventions, b/c someone might psychically hear the conversation and be hurt, and there is a fundamental human right to never ever ever have any bad feelings, no matter how we have to twist reality to avoid them.

So I am choosing to mosey on out and not come back b/c this is NOT how I want today to go.


I'm sorry you are leaving, I thought you brought up some great points. On the hand, there is a fine line in promoting an idea or your feelings of where change needs to happen and railing to getting people to "drink the kool-aid" per se.

I think all of us here agree c-sections need to be discussed, brought into the open, hashed out just like any other birth intervention. Many of us bristle at the timing of when that discussion happens, which is could be said for any traumatic vaginal birth. This post/thread was to discuss where c-sections may fit into the NCB community, and how to do c-section moms fit into that community. Unfortunately this thread has taken several turns and I hope we can come back to the original topic - can it fit into the model and what can c-section moms bring to the table to benefit the community?


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.

AMEN, SISTER!!!!


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".

Yes. Nicely said. A beautifully succinct response to the OP.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

hmmm....I'm back again...

I've just been processing this whole topic on some level, and thinking about how differently we (c/s moms) react to everything.

I think we can/do fit into the NCB community, first and foremost, as _voices_. *Listen to us.* We're not all the same. Our experiences run the gamut of absolutely necessary, probably/possibly necessary (prudent), probably/possibly _not_ necessary, absolutely not necessary (at least at the time they were done...until the baby is out, a section _could_ become necessary at any time, yk?) and of very traumatic, somewhat traumatic, not traumatic at all and of excellent physical recoveries and okay physical recoveries and terrible physical recoveries, and various combinations of good/bad initial recoveries and good/bad long-term recoveries, and levels of complications, etc. etc. etc. Heck _my_ experiences run a pretty major gamut, all in one bodymind.

Don't jump to conclusions. Don't assume we're traumatized. Don't assume we aren't. Don't assume our sections were unnecessary. *Don't tell us* what we did - or didn't - do wrong. *Listen to us.* Living life is about growing, learning and changing. So is the _beginning_ of life. Don't be like the midwife a pp mentioned, and assume you have all the answers, when you weren't even _there_.

Women who are pro natural birth, but have had c-sections, have a perspective that doesn't fit into the Natural Childbirth box, _or_ the "mainstream" box. Learn from us. Support us. We're in a very different space than...almost everybody else...and that rare perspective makes us valuable, imo. We don't all see things the same way. We don't all have the same perspective. That's part of _why_ we fit into the natural childbirth community...to keep it from slipping into a really unhealthy form of groupthink.

That's my two bits. (And, hey - maybe I'm just trying to turn my own personal hell into something useful, but that's okay, too.)


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Women who are pro natural birth, but have had c-sections, have a perspective that doesn't fit into the Natural Childbirth box, _or_ the "mainstream" box. Learn from us. Support us. We're in a very different space than...almost everybody else...and that rare perspective makes us valuable, imo. We don't all see things the same way. We don't all have the same perspective. That's part of _why_ we fit into the natural childbirth community...to keep it from slipping into a really unhealthy form of groupthink.

YES!!!!!!! Thank you for saying this so beautifully!!!!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

wow, great post, Lisa.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Well said, Lisa.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

yes, well said.


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

YES! What Lisa said!


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Agree also with StormBride! Listen, WE are the ones who went through it, WE are the ones that saw intimately what happened at our births. Re-telling our story for us (by picking apart whether it meets your own personal criteria for "necessary" aka acceptable) takes away our voices, which is anti-woman and anti-feminist.

No, we don't need to just suck it up and stop being offended. Yes, we are big girls and are not afraid of honest discussion. But someone who wasn't there and wants to paint our picture to suit her agenda is just not a welcome part of an honest discussion. It *closes* communication when one does this, and if your goal isn't to communicate and "educate," then what is it?

Education is a two way street here. Believe it or not, we have learned things about being a woman and being a mother and about childbirth through our varied birth experiences. If we don't have a voice in the NBC then you're missing a vital piece of the puzzle.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

I haven't chimed in here yet, because I haven't had a C-section, but as someone who learned the hard way that sometimes, no matter how much you believe in your body and your baby, no matter how educated and informed you are, no matter if you do everything 'right' - sometimes $hit happens.

I had a very traumatic birth (which I have no doubt would have been a C-section given slightly different circumstances). Before that birth I had spent months literally devouring any and all information on birth, how normal it is, how to avoid the interventions etc. I would read other women's birth stories, and in my head I would be critiquing them. See, she went into the hospital too early, this woman gave in and got an epidural, this one believed what her doctor told her. I knew all the 'mistakes' that would rob you of your chance at a natural birth, and I thought that I was immune - because I was making the best possible choices to ensure a natural birth and because I knew all the potential pitfalls.

Now, coming from there - I think the place for C-section mamas (and other mamas who've had 'non-natural' births) in the NCB community is to educate and inform other mamas, particularly that these things can happen to the best of us. Not to think you're immune as I did. (And I know many other mamas on here still do). It's easy to say things like - oh, well, I would just never cave to the pressure to induce if I went post-dates because as soon as you have an induction your chances of having a C-section go through the roof. But it's hard to understand how scary it can be when you're actually in that situation yourself. It's easy to say - I just wouldn't listen to the scare tactics and I'd refuse consent for XYZ. But sometimes circumstances combine against even the best of us - we get beat down by being bullied for hours while dealing with a very difficult labour, things are done to us before we have time to realise what's going on, let alone consent. And, of course, real emergencies do happen.

Knowing that NCB-supportive mamas have ended up with C-sections is something which can and should humble, educate and reassure the rest of us. It should humble those of us lucky enough to have wonderful natural births - it's important to realise that although you made good choices and worked hard to get your natural birth it's not all down to you. There is always the element of chance there. It should educate us all - we can all learn from the experiences of these mamas. And it can reassure us - when we know that mamas who were just as committed to NCB as us have had C-sections, then we can see that although possibly traumatic, it doesn't have to mean the end of all things related to natural childbirth.

There are plenty of wise mamas on here who have had C-sections and who still support NCB; including StormBride, who has had 5 C-sections despite doing her damndest to avoid them all, and Ms. Black, who had a number of UCs, before transferring herself to have a C-section. Having a C-section does not mean having to 'give up your NCB cred' - as a NCB supportive C-section mama you can encourage others to have natural births, you can share your wisdom and information, you can share your own experiences in the hope that others will learn from them, and by your very example you can show us that women who support(ed) NCB and had a C-section themselves *did not* 'fail' and are not 'broken'. They are strong women, just like the rest of us - maybe even stronger, because they have been through a growing and learning experience which the rest of us have not.

(Pregnancy brain means that this post is all over the shop - but I hope I've been lucid enough to get my point across.)


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Warm, happy, glowing heart...I am so touched by the wisdom emerging here. There are so many great things being said.

As someone who has followed this thread avidly, I want to share my sense that we're coming through something difficult & important together. Birthing ideas, like birthing babies, is big stuff. We're birthing our stories and our truths here, and it's messy and painful and joyful and triumphant. It takes courage, and I'm so proud of us for doing this work.

I've started a new thread called "humbling beginnings" that is a place to explore humility in the birthing process. It's open to anyone, c-section or otherwise. I've set what I hope is a very strong & clear intention for the thread, and I hope that it will become a respectful place for sharing stories and connecting. I invite anyone who feels that they have a story to tell to visit that thread and offer your experience if you wish. Or just visit to read others' stories.

It is so easy to see the world in terms of divisions and separations, but it seems like the idea of "humbled by birth" is a place where we can come together.

An on-line forum is such a weird blend of anonymity and intimacy....though I don't know any of you, I feel very connected and supported by the conversation that's happening here. It's something that's really been missing from my life, and I'm so incredibly grateful to find it here.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Don't jump to conclusions. Don't assume we're traumatized. Don't assume we aren't. Don't assume our sections were unnecessary. *Don't tell us* what we did - or didn't - do wrong. *Listen to us.* Living life is about growing, learning and changing. So is the _beginning_ of life. Don't be like the midwife a pp mentioned, and assume you have all the answers, when you weren't even _there_.

Women who are pro natural birth, but have had c-sections, have a perspective that doesn't fit into the Natural Childbirth box, _or_ the "mainstream" box. Learn from us. Support us. We're in a very different space than...almost everybody else...and that rare perspective makes us valuable, imo. We don't all see things the same way. We don't all have the same perspective. That's part of _why_ we fit into the natural childbirth community...to keep it from slipping into a really unhealthy form of groupthink.

That's my two bits. (And, hey - maybe I'm just trying to turn my own personal hell into something useful, but that's okay, too.)











that was a wonderful post!

i'm sorry i've been missing for the last day and a half, training at work plus school means no internet time.

i really want to thank everyone for their contributions. i think this discussion has been thoughtful, provoking, and inspiring all at the same time.

ci- i will definitely be posting on your thread.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

umm...thank you. I think this may be the most positive reception any of my posts has ever received.









I do _not_ have positive feelings about my sections (nor do I feel that I did my best to avoid them...maybe that's part of the problem), but that doesn't mean every other woman who's had a c/s has to see it the same way I do. I _hate_ people trying to muzzle me. In my case - maybe because my hatred of my sections is so...blatant - I get it more from the "mainstream", but the source really doesn't matter. People need to listen.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_ktg_* 
This post/thread was to discuss where c-sections may fit into the NCB community, and how to do c-section moms fit into that community. Unfortunately this thread has taken several turns and I hope we can come back to the original topic - can it fit into the model and what can c-section moms bring to the table to benefit the community?

This question of "how do c/s moms fit into the community" just kind of rubs me the wrong way. I feel especially sad that moms like Altair who are birth professionals and c/s moms feel like they have to "renounce their NCB card" or whatever.

I mean, that is just nuts. The NCB community is about supporting and promoting a lower-intervention approach to birth. It's not (or shouldn't be!) an exclusive club where you have to pass a personal NCB 'test' to get in. A mom who has interest in NCB is necessarily part of the NCB community regardless of how her own births went.

And in terms of what c/s moms can bring to the community, well, from some of what I've heard on this thread it sounds like they could educate some of the other members of the NCB community about all of the things that could happen to ANY laboring woman that might require her to have a c/s.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

I've been doing more processing about this topic and there's another thing I'm thinking about that I'd like to share.

I wouldn't say that I started my parenting journey as a natural childbirth/natural parenting advocate. I started as someone looking for a way to be fully present on the journey. Looking for mindfulness or intention in my parenting choices, to give it other words. I also started as someone who feels out of synch with a lot of "mainstream" culture (though not all...nothing's B&W here) and who really wanted information about alternatives.

The "natural" approach works for me to the extent that it increases my ability to be a present, mindful, intentional parent. And there are lots & lots of instances where that is the case. I am glad I read "Birthing from Within" because it talked about c-section in a way that gave me tools that I used. Because of that information, I knew that I could still regard my c-section as a birth, not just a surgical procedure. I knew that I could ask to hold my baby right away, I could begin bonding as soon as the surgery was over, I could encourage my partner to do skin-to-skin right away so that she could begin bonding with our daughter, I could still breastfeed, etc. That information really, really helped me.

Natural parenting resources carried me through a painful and distressing 12-week breast infection that almost ended my breastfeeding experience. But with information & support from a wonderfully gentle lactation consultant and from other mamas at a local breastfeeding clinic, I was able to get through things. I still breastfeed my 18-month old, and I do so in large part because I love the way that it allows me to connect & be present & quiet with my on-the-go toddler.

Co-sleeping was a completely foreign concept to me, but mothering magazine and the Sears book directed my partner to the idea, and with her help & support, we started co-sleeping with our daughter and continue to do so to this day. Again, I've found it to be such a wonderful way to be mindful even while asleep!









These are all choices that take me outside the "mainstream" and I'm so glad that there is a natural parenting community where I can get information, connect with others who also make these choices, etc.

The places where I get turned off by NCB are the places where IMHO it loses the focus on presence, mindfulness, and intentionality that brought me here in the first place. When I perceive that this community is getting obsessed over a vagina vs. an incision or is building a perfectionist standard that every woman must now measure herself against, frankly I don't see the difference between NCB and the mainstream.

So in addition to all the great things said by StormBride & others, I would add: C-section fits into natural childbirth framework because there's a way to do c-section with mindfulness & intention, and NCB is where those resources are.

A personal note to Galatea, just in case you come back here some day: I want to apologize personally for responding to a previous thread of yours from a place of anger. Your words tripped a cord during a vulnerable moment, and I "hit reply" when I probably should have taken a walk. That thread is now closed, and I'm sorry if I had a part in shutting it down. I learned some valuable things through that experience and I hope I've come to this thread with a different approach. I also want to thank you for the passion & persistence with which you presented your thoughts in this thread. Your firey posts created a crucible in which many of us forged our own clarity and resolve. I honestly don't think we could have done it without you.

It's 3:45 am and a gentle rain has started. I've been awakened several nights this week full of thoughts that just won't let me rest until I get them out into the world....birthing my story...


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## Shazer (Oct 6, 2006)

Subbing. Just went through 2nd c/s and was led to this thread. Thank you to o/p for this.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *louis* 
We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.

so as long as women agree with you then they belong? utterly ridiculous. i didn't plan a c birth, but you know what? i am absolutely educated and should i elect to have another rather than try for a vbac, i do not need your condescending approval.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i have had a c birth. i don't feel as though i am in a "more natural than thou" contest. it rubs me the wrong way when people use the "natural" vs. "unnatural" argument. I sense a lot of judgment from the mdc community when it comes to birth choices, and i do notice that mamas are "forgiven" other natural family living choices more frequently than c birthing.
the fact that we are debating whether or not a c birth is natural is senseless to me. i had an ectopic prior to this birth. would "natural" have been to go ahead and die from it?
i do not need approval. that idea smacks of judgmental attitude and i resent that. i do NOT resent the birth i had. we make choices based on the tools we have at the time. i refuse to lament my lack of place within natural childbirth communities because i will not accept being defined or having a label put upon my birth. it was what it was and i don't feel the need to defend myself for that.
for women who are/were coerced into making particular choices, THAT is a problem. That is where i chose to direct my anger and hostility. towards a society/media/medical establishment that refuses to disclose information or gather fully informed consent. fight the real enemy, y'all.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis
_We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
so as long as women agree with you then they belong? utterly ridiculous. i didn't plan a c birth, but you know what? i am absolutely educated and should i elect to have another rather than try for a vbac, i do not need your condescending approval.

Now I am confused. Louis was not saying CS's are wrong or that women who have them cannot help promote natural birth choices as much as anyone else. She _did_ say that someone could not maintain that a CS is the ideal birth outcome and still claim to support natural childbirth, which seems self-evident to me. If somebody believed a CS was as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth, why would she even _want_ to be involved in advocating NCB?


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

Mamabadger, what if a c-section birth was *more* desirable to that particular woman than a "straightforward" vaginal birth could have been?

My thinking on birth has gone through a lot of changes in the last 13 years. Once, I thought that the vast majority (practically 100%) of complications were iatrogenic and that women could avoid them by avoiding allopathic western medicine. And now I don't. I don't think there is one single right answer for all women and all births, in all circumstances. I think each woman has to consider her personal, unique circumstances and make her decisions about birth based on those circumstances. I think all women should have access to supportive, respectful care and advice in making those decisions, and in pregnancy and labor.

And that's it. I don't think NCB is better than that. I support women's right to choose NCB, but I refuse to criticize women who made a different choice, or women whose circumstances forced a different choice upon them.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Now I am confused. Louis was not saying CS's are wrong or that women who have them cannot help promote natural birth choices as much as anyone else. She _did_ say that someone could not maintain that a CS is the ideal birth outcome and still claim to support natural childbirth, which seems self-evident to me. If somebody believed a CS was as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth, why would she even _want_ to be involved in advocating NCB?

I think hildare was referring to choosing a repeat c/s over a vbac, which I think is a lot different than electing to have a primary c/s.

Although honestly, I'm not a NCB advocate. I think women who desire a natural birth have the right to be respected and supported. But I also think women who don't want a natural birth have the same right. I don't think NCB is inherently "better" because there are just too many variables in birth. It's better for some women and babies, but it's not for others. It can even change from birth to birth for the same woman.

I think there's a big difference between saying "a c/s might be the most desirable choice for some women" and saying "all women should have a c/s because it's always the best." Likewise with NCB.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Although honestly, I'm not a NCB advocate. I think women who desire a natural birth have the right to be respected and supported. But I also think women who don't want a natural birth have the same right. I don't think NCB is inherently "better" because there are just too many variables in birth. It's better for some women and babies, but it's not for others. It can even change from birth to birth for the same woman.

This is kind of how I feel. I'm much more AP advocate than NCB advocate. I had my first baby unmedicated (in hospital), plan to do the same with this one, so I'm kind of semi NCB. And if I'm talking to a woman who is considering trying a NCB I'll definitely be encouraging and talk about it. But I agree with CherryBomb, there is no universal "best" birth-- just the best birth for each woman/baby/situation, case by case.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
This is kind of how I feel. I'm much more AP advocate than NCB advocate. I had my first baby unmedicated (in hospital), plan to do the same with this one, so I'm kind of semi NCB. And if I'm talking to a woman who is considering trying a NCB I'll definitely be encouraging and talk about it. But I agree with CherryBomb, *there is no universal "best" birth-- just the best birth for each woman/baby/situation, case by case*.


I love that! And it is exactly how I feel about birth.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Now I am confused. Louis was not saying CS's are wrong or that women who have them cannot help promote natural birth choices as much as anyone else. She _did_ say that someone could not maintain that a CS is the ideal birth outcome and still claim to support natural childbirth, which seems self-evident to me. If somebody believed a CS was as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth, why would she even _want_ to be involved in advocating NCB?

I hope this isn't too repetitive but - a CS is to me as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth when it is the (probably final and) definitive _life-saving procedure_ that results in a healthy baby.

It is entirely possible to separate out the cascade of intervention that leads to perhaps unnecessarily high c-section rates from the c-section procedure itself.

As a reminder c-sections have been performed for a long, long time and are a part of several cultures' mythologies - it's just that usually the mother was dead or dying at the time that they were performed: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Deleted - lost my train of thought...


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
As a reminder c-sections have been performed for a long, long time and are a part of several cultures' mythologies - it's just that usually the mother was dead or dying at the time that they were performed: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html

Thanks for sharing this website...fascinating read.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes, the question used to be "If we can only save one, which?" Midwives/doctors could save the mother by (whited out for the sensitive - graphic) basically crushing or collapsing the skull of the fetus, and then extracting or they could save the baby by opening the abdomen.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
If somebody believed a CS was as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth, why would she even _want_ to be involved in advocating NCB?

Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about _how_ it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. It's less about OB vs. Midwife vs. unassisted and more about making sure that women, not institutions, drive birthing choices. It's about making sure that women _have_ choices--_real_ choices--and that includes having access to education and information and the personal power to choose what's best for us. The NCB I embrace is less concerned with vagina vs. incision, and more concerned with how to create a mindful experience every step of the way, no matter what happens.

So looking at it that way, there's no reason to reject any particular type of birth as "unnatural." What's "unnatural" is to treat women like mindless idiots who need to be controlled. What's "unnatural" is to focus on the moment of baby-emerging-from-body and to decide that that's what defines the entire birthing process.

I'm NOT interested in NCB that tries to determine one perfect way to give birth and fit all women into that mold. I feel like "the mainstream" has that pretty well covered.

Reason #2: I believe that we know very little about why c-sections become "necessary." We tend to focus a lot on the "chain of interventions" and "bad hospital environment" and "knife-happy OBs", and I agree that those are important things to look at, but to me that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are many layers of social & economic & personal circumstances that form a unique constellation around each c-section.

In my own case, I think my choice to birth in a hospital was a factor in my c-section. So was the fact that I work full-time and had limited maternity leave, so I was working literally almost up to the moment when labor began. I think the fact that I spent 15 months trying to get pregnant before conceiving might have something to do with it, as might the fact that I was 38 years old at the time of conception & birth. There was some really stupid homophobic bullshit that directly impacted my labor. And I have bone-deep personal grief directly related to losing 2 mothers. I think that all of those factors--and potentially others--impacted my experience. I think that if I had witnessed dozens of women giving birth before my time came, if I had been surrounded by unwashed humans with a free flow of pheremones (like our cave dwelling ancestors), that would have given me a different birthing experience.

In short, I think that if I were a different person and had manifested completely different circumstances around my birthing, my c-section would not have been necessary. Does that mean I could have prevented it? I have no idea.

When we try to draw lines around which c-sections are "necessary" and which ones aren't, or which ones were "preventable" and which ones weren't, we're taking a really complex issue and oversimplifying it.

I'll leave the oversimplifications to "the mainstream." I'll also let them reduce childbirth to something that can be tamed, managed, controlled & explained in neat, tidy packages. The NCB that I embrace respects that there's a big, fat Mystery at the center of pregnancy and birth and that NOTHING is guaranteed.

That's MY NCB. If it's not THE NCB, then I have no idea where I belong in this world.


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## Shazer (Oct 6, 2006)

CI Mama - I think you summed everything perfectly. C/S is one potential final stage of a birthing process that has more variables than any one of us can realize. And to judge only the outcome rather than the process make NCB advocates no better than the mainstream counterparts.

In looking at my first c/s, I realize that all of the decisions I made during my pregnancy from using midwives to trying for a home birth led me to the path of a c/s. Had there been a familiar OB at the hospital who knew me and treated me instead of a tired and knife-happy one, had my MWs not pushed me into labor, had I not felt pressure from my family, had I joined the mainstream, etc.

This thread makes me yearn for a medical and NCB community that work together and respect each other for the common goals of providing the best birth choices and maternal outcomes for each individual. There is absolutely a place for both in the spectrum of pregnancy and childbirth. I just wish they were not antagonists. And of course all are not antagonists. There are plenty of OBs who respect midwives and homebirth. But the greater feeling I get from my own experiences, and I'm sure that is colored by my location and the resources available to me, is that the two parties do not get along as well as they should. And that is damaging to most importantly mothers and babies.


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## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 

So in addition to all the great things said by StormBride & others, I would add: C-section fits into natural childbirth framework because there's a way to do c-section with mindfulness & intention, and NCB is where those resources are.


That really hits on something important for me. I just met with a midwife about my upcoming VBAC. I was transferred out of the birth center with a big headed stuck baby. Doctor listened to his heart and felt he was under stress. I agreed to the c/sec. But I had felt like such a failure, and that my midwife was a dunce...

Anyhow, the new mw listened to the story and said, "I like what I'm hearing. I think everything happened as it should have." I felt more healing in that moment than in the last 2 years combined. I still wish more than anything that DS could have been positioned better (ie not sunny side up). But I'm finding it easier to accept that it happened. And also I am thankful because I believe the c/sec saved both our lives. I know I wasn't able to push that little boy's head out.

Thanks very much for this thread. I've been really touched by everyone's stories.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mizznicole* 
Anyhow, the new mw listened to the story and said, "I like what I'm hearing. I think everything happened as it should have." I felt more healing in that moment than in the last 2 years combined. I still wish more than anything that DS could have been positioned better (ie not sunny side up). But I'm finding it easier to accept that it happened. And also I am thankful because I believe the c/sec saved both our lives. I know I wasn't able to push that little boy's head out.

Thanks very much for this thread. I've been really touched by everyone's stories.

What a wise midwife!

Stories have great power. They can be incredibly healing. It would be great if every HCP who attends birth considered "birthing a story" part of their job description. How that story gets told can make such a difference.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about _how_ it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. It's less about OB vs. Midwife vs. unassisted and more about making sure that women, not institutions, drive birthing choices. It's about making sure that women _have_ choices--_real_ choices--and that includes having access to education and information and the personal power to choose what's best for us. The NCB I embrace is less concerned with vagina vs. incision, and more concerned with how to create a mindful experience every step of the way, no matter what happens.

So looking at it that way, there's no reason to reject any particular type of birth as "unnatural." What's "unnatural" is to treat women like mindless idiots who need to be controlled. What's "unnatural" is to focus on the moment of baby-emerging-from-body and to decide that that's what defines the entire birthing process.

I'm NOT interested in NCB that tries to determine one perfect way to give birth and fit all women into that mold. I feel like "the mainstream" has that pretty well covered.

Reason #2: I believe that we know very little about why c-sections become "necessary." We tend to focus a lot on the "chain of interventions" and "bad hospital environment" and "knife-happy OBs", and I agree that those are important things to look at, but to me that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are many layers of social & economic & personal circumstances that form a unique constellation around each c-section.

In my own case, I think my choice to birth in a hospital was a factor in my c-section. So was the fact that I work full-time and had limited maternity leave, so I was working literally almost up to the moment when labor began. I think the fact that I spent 15 months trying to get pregnant before conceiving might have something to do with it, as might the fact that I was 38 years old at the time of conception & birth. There was some really stupid homophobic bullshit that directly impacted my labor. And I have bone-deep personal grief directly related to losing 2 mothers. I think that all of those factors--and potentially others--impacted my experience. I think that if I had witnessed dozens of women giving birth before my time came, if I had been surrounded by unwashed humans with a free flow of pheremones (like our cave dwelling ancestors), that would have given me a different birthing experience.

In short, I think that if I were a different person and had manifested completely different circumstances around my birthing, my c-section would not have been necessary. Does that mean I could have prevented it? I have no idea.

When we try to draw lines around which c-sections are "necessary" and which ones aren't, or which ones were "preventable" and which ones weren't, we're taking a really complex issue and oversimplifying it.

I'll leave the oversimplifications to "the mainstream." I'll also let them reduce childbirth to something that can be tamed, managed, controlled & explained in neat, tidy packages. The NCB that I embrace respects that there's a big, fat Mystery at the center of pregnancy and birth and that NOTHING is guaranteed.

That's MY NCB. If it's not THE NCB, then I have no idea where I belong in this world.

So beautifully said!







This is how I see NCB, and I believe in wholeheartdly!


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. *It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it.* It's not just about what happens, it's about _how_ it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. I

Yes!

Does my entire pregnancy of hour long midwife appointments on my own couch disappear because my baby's head got stuck in my pelvis? Does it suddenly not matter that every single test/procedure done in my pregnancy was entirely my choice?

What about the beautiful education/evolving thought process my partner went through learning about homebirths and the sacredness of baby's first seconds, minutes, hours, days... and the importance of postpartum bonding... and the way our love deepened exponentially throughout my labor as I relied on his strength in a way I never had, culminating in the first time I ever told him I loved him, on the operating table.

How all of the years of learning about NCB helped me to advocate for myself extremely successfully in the hospital, choose the only Mother-Baby Friendly hospital in my city to transfer to, and keep my baby near me 100% of the time. The wisdom of having an amazing doula who came back to my ransacked apartment the next day and cleaned up the mess from my birth tub explosion (interesting story, resulting in 10s of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the apartment and store below us) and the mess of blood and fluids and baked us cookies to come home to... the wisdom of documenting my labor with an incredible photographer who captured 600 images of my perseverance in labor and anguish at transfer and glory holding my baby (if you want to see some of the g-rated ones, let me know!)... and the wisdom of knowing that NOW, after 60 hours, I need to transfer.

I learned a lot from being in the NCB for a decade before my birth, and it's just damn silly to say that I can now only be a part of it if I admit that my birth was a bad thing. Ouch. My birth was a tremendous thing. It was the highest of highs you can ever experience. My pregnancy was as natural as they come and my labor was as anti-intervention as possible and the culmination was a baby who needed medical help to come out. So what. I now have a heck of a lot more to offer as a doula... empathy, humility, and an understanding that I can tell you all I want about pain-reducing and coping techniques, but every labor is different and every contraction is different and you are no less of a woman for doing everything in your power to get your baby out.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
My birth was a tremendous thing. It was the highest of highs you can ever experience. My pregnancy was as natural as they come and my labor was as anti-intervention as possible and the culmination was a baby who needed medical help to come out. So what. I now have a heck of a lot more to offer as a doula... empathy, humility, and an understanding that I can tell you all I want about pain-reducing and coping techniques, but every labor is different and every contraction is different and you are no less of a woman for doing everything in your power to get your baby out.

Yes!!! It is so great to hear you say, "My birth was a tremendous thing." Powerful transformations come in a lot of different packages.









One of the thing I hate about statistics is that if you have a c-section your whole birth is lumped into that category. When you hear about the high number of c-sections in this country, it's probably easy both within & without the NCB community to assume that none of them were "natural".

I really think that diminishes the power of NCB and obscures the number of women who are working towards and embracing NCB.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

After four awesome unassisted homebirths and almost ten years of advocating for and encouraging homebirths, my fifth baby was born (a little over two weeks ago) via C-sec... I haven't had a lot of time to get my thoughts all together on it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the queen-mother-of-all-birth interventions it was necessary in that birth. Could be that we could have avoided the T-cut in my uterus, but none of us knew going into the surgery that I had a Bandl's Ring going on in there. I can live with it even if it *could* have been avoided (which isn't something we can ever know for certain.)

I've not had a second of doubt that it was the same intuition that I relied on in my other pregnancies and births that led me to the hospital (a leap of faith since I had had a UP and therefore had to explain to everyone I saw that I hadn't had any prenatal care at all) -- and I am so glad that I listened to that and made that leap. Each step of the way my intuition and autonomy were fully respected, even by the OB. They did everything they could to use the least amount of intervention each step of the way, and were very compassionate and respectful of my choices, and even apologetic that the birth was not what we had planned. Different people along the way in the hospital affirmed my intuition and me as a birthing mother. The level of informed consent/refusal that I was offered was astonishingly refreshing.

I wouldn't say that my son's birth was "natural," because IMO it absolutely was not natural. But it was certainly the _best_, _safest_ and _healthiest_ birth for me and this sweet little boy in my arms. And, for the above reasons (respect, compassion, a true sense of autonomy, affirmation, and an underlying trust in the laboring woman's instincts) it was actually a very positive experience for me -- something I would NOT have thought possible three weeks ago.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I can only speak for myself but my goal is to support mothers and to encourage informed decision-making without being overly invested in what the decisions themselves turn out to be.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Congratulations, Colleen! Glad your little boy is here and healthy. Thanks for sharing your story. What a positive outcome (and attitude!)


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about _how_ it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. It's less about OB vs. Midwife vs. unassisted and more about making sure that women, not institutions, drive birthing choices. It's about making sure that women _have_ choices--_real_ choices--and that includes having access to education and information and the personal power to choose what's best for us. The NCB I embrace is less concerned with vagina vs. incision, and more concerned with how to create a mindful experience every step of the way, no matter what happens.

So looking at it that way, there's no reason to reject any particular type of birth as "unnatural." What's "unnatural" is to treat women like mindless idiots who need to be controlled. What's "unnatural" is to focus on the moment of baby-emerging-from-body and to decide that that's what defines the entire birthing process.

I'm NOT interested in NCB that tries to determine one perfect way to give birth and fit all women into that mold. I feel like "the mainstream" has that pretty well covered.

Reason #2: I believe that we know very little about why c-sections become "necessary." We tend to focus a lot on the "chain of interventions" and "bad hospital environment" and "knife-happy OBs", and I agree that those are important things to look at, but to me that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are many layers of social & economic & personal circumstances that form a unique constellation around each c-section.

In my own case, I think my choice to birth in a hospital was a factor in my c-section. So was the fact that I work full-time and had limited maternity leave, so I was working literally almost up to the moment when labor began. I think the fact that I spent 15 months trying to get pregnant before conceiving might have something to do with it, as might the fact that I was 38 years old at the time of conception & birth. There was some really stupid homophobic bullshit that directly impacted my labor. And I have bone-deep personal grief directly related to losing 2 mothers. I think that all of those factors--and potentially others--impacted my experience. I think that if I had witnessed dozens of women giving birth before my time came, if I had been surrounded by unwashed humans with a free flow of pheremones (like our cave dwelling ancestors), that would have given me a different birthing experience.

In short, I think that if I were a different person and had manifested completely different circumstances around my birthing, my c-section would not have been necessary. Does that mean I could have prevented it? I have no idea.

When we try to draw lines around which c-sections are "necessary" and which ones aren't, or which ones were "preventable" and which ones weren't, we're taking a really complex issue and oversimplifying it.

I'll leave the oversimplifications to "the mainstream." I'll also let them reduce childbirth to something that can be tamed, managed, controlled & explained in neat, tidy packages. The NCB that I embrace respects that there's a big, fat Mystery at the center of pregnancy and birth and that NOTHING is guaranteed.

That's MY NCB. If it's not THE NCB, then I have no idea where I belong in this world.

WOW. Yes. I had to quote your entire post.

I agree....

Even if it's not THE NCB, it's MY NCB l!!!


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think _should_ be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I really think the whole point of this thread, of all the comments made in it is the following:

-- it is important to educate women to help them avoid "unnecessary" c-sections.

-- If a woman DOES end up with a c-section, it is no longer the moment to try to educate her on where she went wrong, or pick apart her birth story looking for her mistakes. If a woman is well-versed in NCB info, chances are she's already doing that herself, and extra input from people who weren't there when she birthed is rude, offensive, unnecessary and offputting.

It's also EXTREMELY important for those NCB advocates who have never had c-sections to remember that 1) they weren't there, so they don't know all the details and 2) judging a woman for her experience will not make you friends or advance your agenda at all.

And, yes, sometimes c-sections ARE necessary, they ARE the only way to have a living mama and baby at the end. And a live mama and baby is cause for rejoicing, even if the birth didn't meet NCB's strict criteria for a "perfect" birth. NCB advocates would do well to remember that, too.

Mamabadger, I hope that answers your questions.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

Because a whole lot of women are having cesareans they didn't want, because they have no options. If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should _have a say_. Whether women are happy/okay with their c-sections or not, they still shouldn't be pushed into them by hospital policies and uninformed consent.

Plus, even non-traumatic, non-complicated c/s do have ramifications for a woman's reproductive future that non-traumatic, non-complicated natural births simply do not.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should _have a say_.

I'm down with that.


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## Shazer (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think _should_ be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?

I think the approach should be to search for ways to integrate natural childbirth advocacy within the medical birth community. Cesareans are medically necessary at times, safer for the mother and baby at times, performed for the preferences of doctors at times . . . they do exist and shouldn't be ignored as just flukes within the NCB community. I think it has been pointed out on here that many mothers who have had c/s feel ostracized by the NBC. Whether or not this is the intention of the NBC, it is a reality for many who have gone through unplanned or planned, traumatic or happy c/s births.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

For some of us, c/s is the safest option for birth. Fighting for natural birth choices is a valiant and honorable goal. But those who have had c/s can view these births with joy or any other emotion they choose, just as women who have had vaginal births are entitled to any emotion. Not every c/s should be viewed as a tragedy. It seems the best place to fight is those OBs who turn to c/s as an easier choice for themselves and the medical establishment that has established unrealistic rules about safe birth. Again, integration between the NBC and the medical birth community seems to be a worthy goal so that more physicians trust the bodies of women instead of turning to the knife when an attempt at a vaginal birth isn't picture perfect and so that physicians and hospitals respect and trust the midwife community.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Because a whole lot of women are having cesareans they didn't want, because they have no options. If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should _have a say_. Whether women are happy/okay with their c-sections or not, they still shouldn't be pushed into them by hospital policies and uninformed consent.











Quote:

Not every c/s should be viewed as a tragedy.
This, too.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think _should_ be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. *Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?*
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

bolding is mine as I think this is the question which was debated earlier in the thread. Working to reduce the number of c/sections in the US is a valuable goal as we all know its outrageously high.

I believe this thread has helped us to examine that the tactics used in trying to reduce the c/section rate by some NCB advocates has actually done a disservice to women by making them feel guilty, ashamed, etc. over some of their choices while in labor. Someone pointed out before women who have had a c/section could be welcomed into the NCB only if they recognize the c/section was not the right choice.

The fight to reduce the number of c/sections needs to be fought by NCB advocates along with those who have had a c/section (if they want to) as they have BTDT and can offer/give a perspective which is lacking currently in the NCB movement.


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## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

I just attended my first ICAN meeting and guess what - 4 of 5 of us began with midwifes and had to transfer to hospitals where we had c/s's. I feel not so alone now! The shame, guilt, and isolation are feelings I am well aware of as someone who "did things the right way" and ended up with the cesarean.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think _should_ be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

The focus should be on good decision making approaching labour and during labour. I think education about the risks -- and there are serious risks -- of a c-section is fine. It is major abdominal surgery. I think it is also fine to ask about c-section rates.

But I don't agree (and if you read my posts you probably get why) that c-section reduction should get the emphasis it does as if the _c-section_ is the problem. The problem is the _pattern of decisions_ that lead to a c-section when it's not warranted. But a c-section itself is just a procedure, which can be lifesaving. The question is not was the c-section 100% necessary, because a) sometimes you can't know and b) to get to 100% necessary you would have to lose babies on the margins.

The question is were the labour decisions good ones.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think _should_ be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

I am very much in favor of NCB promoting more positive birthing experiences for all women. I think the focus on reducing c-section is too narrow. When we lump all c-sections into a "bad" category we miss the opportunity to think about necessary change in a more nuanced way.

What should we advocating for? That's a great question to be asking, and those of us who have had c-sections have important perspectives to lend to that discussion.

In the world that I want to advocate for, I see:

1) The reduction of *any* procedure or practice that is experienced by the birthing mother as birth rape or as a humiliating violation. This would include some c-sections but would also include violations that occur during vaginal births. This is not just about the procedures themselves, but also about the quality of communication between a woman and her HCP and the degree to which a woman feels that she has choices and is able to exercise them.

2) More broad, holistic education for medical staff (esp. OBs in training) with more emphasis on the range of natural birth experiences so that they recognize a normal birth when they see one and so that c-section isn't the only or primary intervention that they're prepared to use when things truly go astray.

3) Reduction of hospital policies such as mandatory fetal monitoring, insistence that women must lay on their backs to labor, not allowing laboring moms to eat, etc. Reduction of hospital VBAC bans. In order to achieve these reductions, it may be necessary to rethink malpractice law, health insurance policies, etc.

4) Mandatory paid leave for working moms that includes time off prior to the start of labor.

5) Health insurance coverage for home birth.

6) Post-partum care for all moms that includes greater recognition of the complexity of emotional & physical shift that surrounds any birth experience. More art, ritual, storytelling, and community support for women processing the complexity of their experience.

These are the things that would have made a huge difference for me and would have perhaps even prevented my c-section, or at the very least reduced the trauma that I did feel in the weeks and months following it.

If we could achieve these things, I believe the c-section rate would go down, but more importantly, I think that all birthing women would be more empowered. I do not think that it's possible to create a world where no bad things ever happen. In my perfect world, women who have been through hell are honored and respected just as much as women who've had "perfect" birth experiences.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
The focus should be on good decision making approaching labour and during labour. I think education about the risks -- and there are serious risks -- of a c-section is fine. It is major abdominal surgery. I think it is also fine to ask about c-section rates.

Education and support of good decision making are great, but in practice they would not necessarily reduce the amount of surgery. In much the same way, pregnant women can be educated about episiotomies and told how to increase the likelihood of an intact perineum, but in practice many OB's just cut or do not cut according to their personal preference. It is not usually the pregnant women who need the educating.

Quote:

But I don't agree (and if you read my posts you probably get why) that c-section reduction should get the emphasis it does as if the _c-section_ is the problem. The problem is the _pattern of decisions_ that lead to a c-section when it's not warranted. But a c-section itself is just a procedure, which can be lifesaving.
The C-section itself may not be the problem in any individual case, especially where the procedure saved lives. That would only apply to one procedure, outside the context of obstetrics and health care in general. Cesarean surgery _as it is currently employed_ is a very, very big problem. It is potentially lifesaving. So are hysterectomies, but years ago, when they were being done almost routinely, they were not "just a procedure" - they were a symptom of some of the worst and most misogynistic aspects of gynecology.
When almost a third of U.S. women are delivering surgically, some without consent and even by force, the C-section might well be viewed as a weapon more often than a remedy.

Quote:

The question is not was the c-section 100% necessary, because a) sometimes you can't know and b) to get to 100% necessary you would have to lose babies on the margins.
On the other hand, the risk for maternal death is much greater with a C-section; so doing more surgeries in borderline cases means losing more _mothers_ on the margins. I do not mean to be flippant about genuine risks, but the idea that more C-sections = more live, healthy babies is inaccurate - birth outcomes do not improve as CS rates climb, and _maternal_ outcomes drastically worsen.
As I see it, promoting "natural childbirth" means promoting, among other things, safer and healthier births. In the absence of serious complications, C-sections are less safe and less healthy, and their overuse is dangerous. It is not really possible to promote safe, healthy, "natural" birth, without also opposing the continuing trend toward more surgery. It is also not possible to discuss the risks and disadvantages of C-sections, as you suggest, without at least implying that C-sections are, in many ways, a problem; and without admitting that avoiding a needless CS is more likely to be an issue than getting a genuinely necessary one.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

I was one of those who just thought that all would be well and I knew what I wanted and therefore c-section never really crossed my mind - i thought I was so well prepared and then the day came that our dd was to arrive, we arrived at the hospital and I had a student midwife and a midwife both were great, things were moving along, they kept me going and were so supportive and then their shift finished and a new midwife came along that wasn't so supportive and convinced me I was tired and exhausted and she was amazed that I had lasted this long etc, this went on for hours and quite frankly she wore down my dh first and then me - I caved into the pressure of having an epidural, then everything stalled and the rest is history - BUT the nurses drs etc were so kind and understanding, I melted into tears every time the dr tried to explain what would happen next, it was the most painful experience of my life, - I can totally relate to StormBride the few days after having the c-section I couldn't move, really I couldn't even get out of bed or sit up, I was in so much pain - I'm reckoning because I went through hours of contractions and then the contractions were still going on when the operation was happening then the healing process was much more difficult. I have heard many many times how we should be up and running around and be in no pain after a c-section, that there should be no pain; however when my father went in for a prostate op he was given all the meds, and sympathy possible - not that I would want the meds particularly but a little understanding can go a long way. Then I had all the breastfeeding problems too of cracked nipples, positioning, over supply etc but again the LCs and nurses were great and I had a fantastic start - or that's how it feels even with all the problems we had - the personnelle have a huge impact on how I have perceived things.

Three years later almost to the day and our ds was to arrive, I can't go into all the details it's too painful but again - another c-section, this time, it was quite frankly the worst experience of my life the c-section was appalling, the attitude of the drs and nurses, I was telling them I could feel everything and was in pain to be completely rejected and told that i didn't know what I was talking about, it still just blows me away, then the way I and my ds were treated after was absolutely disgraceful, I feel convinced that it was all my fault - I didn't fight enough, although when I look back I am amazed at what I achieved, but that still doesn't get rid of the guilt I still feel - if a mother was to come to me with the exact same story i would be so amazed by her story, however i can't stop punishing myself in saying that I never did enough to protect us both. I can't even relate the whole story to anyone nearly 5 years later, it just too painful.

I shall never have another child because of the extreme fear I now have of the 'service' which is provided, I wish that I hadn't given in with the birth of our dd because then i don't think the birth of our ds would have been so traumatic, but how to get over it - I don't know, I'm not sure I shall ever find out, I do have two fantastic children, I love them more than anything else - and that's what helps me get through the days, i give all my support and knowledge to women within the field I work which also helps but the healing, forgiveness, forgetting no - 5 years down the line - I'm just not there yet - I feel like I have been robbed of one of the greatest events that life can give.

So, i think what comes out of this is that not only have I been judged by myself and others; is that I feel society - or the one that I'm part of judges me, I feel ashamed to say that both my children were born by c-section, that i felt powerless and not the woman I felt I was or want to be; I've let myself down not only once but twice.

I listened to a mother-to-be once say that she was going to have a planned c-section, quite literally she was pounced upon by practically every mother there, after the initial pounce we stopped and listened to a horific story of abuse that she had been through; however, on finding out the correct information she eventually had a completely natural homebirth and feels that instead of being overprotective of herself that the natural birth she had has healed her more than any therapy could ever do - so there is a happy ending to her story....

Sorry my post is all over the place - but hey - I reckon you guys can get whats going on in my mind.


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