# my (ex-) church now promoting horrible discipline books



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I am hoping some of you mama's will be inspired to write/email to this church and ask them to take these books off of their church website. I know that is more of an activism request, but you mamas here are the ones in the know, and the ones who will be the most outraged.

When I first started going to this church one year ago, the first thing I asked, literally, when we walked in the door was what was the church's stance on child rearing. The family pastor told me that some famillies spank (you find that EVERYWHERE unfortunately) and that the church DID NOT tell people how to raise their kids, but IF ASKED the pastor would recommend Grace Based Discipline by Tim Kimmel. That sounded about as good as it gets to me. I read reviews on the Kimmel book and I thought (mistakenly) it was anti-spanking (although very low-key still condones spanking).

So then one day I found (gasp) the Perl books in the church's library. I called the head pastor at home, hysterical. He went in the next morning and removed them, called a staff meeting, and they actually found out who put them there and told them it was unacceptable and tried to talk with the folks about their parenting methods.

Get this, as a result of finding those HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE Perl books in their library that some sick parent put, they decided that parenting was too important of a topic NOT to address within the church (here is where I started to get nervous, with good reason as it turns out).

They actually put links to Dobson and Lisa Welchel's "Creative Corrections" on their website. Three links/clicks from their church webstite you get Dobson instructing parents how to paddle their 3-yr old.uke









See more about the Creative Corrections book here in another mdc thread from this forum:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=welchel

My dd finished out the Wed program she was in during the school year (the women who ran it were great). I let various people there know about how I feel about what they condone and did it in a respectful but VERY straight forward way. People were not outright rude to me but some were a bit cool toward me, didn't talk to me anymore. The only one who was still warm with me and willing to discuss the stuff openly was Wendy Dean the pastor to families (the one who maintains the website below). Now that my dd is done we are NEVER going back (unless to put flyers about GD on people's windshields during services).

I guess I am hoping if some of you wise and passionate mama's write to them in your great way you may inspire them to encourage better for the children, hopefully not make them defensive and dig in.

Here is the link to the church (a public website): http://www.rockpoint-church.com/

It is really hard to find this page on their site as no matter where you are you still show the same address above, so here it is cut and pasted (brace yourself):
Otherwise to find it, go under ministries, then children, then Parent toolchest link:

Quote:

Parent Resources
Parent Toolchest

The following list of parenting resources is not an exhaustive list of all that's out there. However, these are some recommended starting points to help you seek information to help you on your adventure as a Christian parent.

General Parenting and Family Support

www.family.org The official website of Focus on the Family ministries

with Dr. James Dobson. Great resource for parenting and family issues including current events and the impact of society on our children and families. Other links include:

www.pluggedinonline.com Christian reviews of movies, music and television

www.focusonyourchild.com

Clubhouse magazine-Christian magazine for elementary aged children

Brio-Christian magazine for teen girls
Breakaway-Christian magazine for teen guys

www.familymatters.net Website of Family Matters Ministries founded by

Dr. Tim Kimmel. Great books and resources

Christian Parenting Newsletter from ChristianityToday.com. Bi-weekly,

e-newsletter containing up-to-date, insightful information and links to articles of special interest to parents.

Children and Money

www.parentware.org ParentWare Family Bank Software-Allowance

program teaches your children to spend wisely, save regularly and avoid debt. Ages 6-16.

Prodigal Sons and Material Girls: How Not to be Your Child's ATM

by Nathan Dungan. Wiley 2003. Valuable resource for teaching your children about money matters. Proponent of the spend-save-share model.

Growing Up Generous: Engaging Youth in Giving and Serving

by Eugene C. Roehlkepartain. Alban Inst. 2000.

Preteen

Zonderkidz (Zondervan Publishing) The Lily Series (preteen girls)

2:52 Series (preteen boys)

Focus on the Family Preparing for Adolescence,

James Dobson

Sex Education

God's Design for Sex - 4 volumes from NavPress

Age-appropriate books to use to teach your child a biblical view of sexuality.

Parenting and Family Resources

www.christianbooks.com Lots and lots of books, videos and music at

low prices!

www.christianministryresource.com Mostly small group and curriculum

materials.

Recommended Books

Creative Correction by Lisa Welchel

Parenting With Scripture by Kara Durbin

Grace Based Parenting by Dr. Tim Kimmel

Other sites of interest

Great ideas for parties, recipes and family activities:

www.familyfun.com

www.kidsdomain.com

www.dltk-kids.com

Is there anything that you would like to add to this list? Has this stirred any ideas for classes or small groups that can help you be to be a godly parent? Contact our Pastor to Children & Families, Wendy Dean, at [email protected].

For additional information contact:
Wendy Dean
651-770-3172
[email protected]


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

No one else is appalled by this??


----------



## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

If I were you, I'd leave the church and find a new one - after I wrote a letter explaining that any organization that promotes cruelty to children is not acceptable to me, and doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus. And that I find their stance hypocritical and against the bible's teachings, leading into long paragraphs detailing every verse in the bible that Christians use to promote spanking, with an argument against every single one.

That's just me, though. But then again, I'm not Christian or religious, so it might be easier for me to say than you to do.


----------



## bdavis337 (Jan 7, 2005)

You know..........a LOT of well meaning pastors and church staff haven't read these books cover to cover, and while it might seem like a reasonable request for them to have read every single book in their library, it isn't feasible. If you're really unhappy with what your church is stocking in their reading departments, it's a good idea to have a game plan. Realize that many of the church leadership haven't read these books cover to cover in scrutiny, and that if they HAVE read them, it's probably only excerpts or relevant portions for their sermons. If you're going to challenge the inclusion of these books and reading materials, be sure you have a lot of research and iformation to provide them.

I'd also suggest to you that some of the links (crafts and family ideas) included on the list you posted aren't that bad - familyfun.com, dltk, etc.

Finally, you are going to be hard pressed to find a church where every single person in leadership thinks and parents the way you do. I agree that GD is almost always the best solution, but there are different ways to employ it in a family/parenting setting, and what works in family settings doesn't always work or isn't always practical in a larger group setting.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I don't believe the pastors have read every book on the list. The family pastor has read one of the Dobson books, "Dare to Discipline" cover to cover though. I have given them quotes from Dobson, and also offered up the Graceful Christian Mothers (is that right) website as a good resource to include on their site - this was about 6 months ago - and since then, they have added the "Creative Corrections" (did you go to that other thread and see the quotes in there - she tells parents to drag their children by their hair through a parking lot if the child doesn't want to hold their hand - that is far from the worst thing in the book) but declined the Mother's site.

I think there is a huge difference between sitting next to a family in church who spanks their children (you will find that in every church), and having a church-based website PROMOTE books which give a detailed description of HOW to paddle the h*ll out of your 34 pound 3 year old when he doesn't pick up the orange peel he dropped the first time you ask him (this is an actual topic in the Dobson book).

I can't believe I have to defend, in this forum, the fact that this is wrong. This church is in the state of MN. Some of the things promoted in the books this church is pushing would land a parent in jail in the state of MN. We are not talking about swatting a six your old for running into the street.

And yes LilyGrace, we are never going back and I feel I've done just about all I can do but remain disturbed about the situation. Thanks for your support, it is appreciated.

~Tracy


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Also, these aren't just books in the church library (anyone can drop off books, they are not screened) these are the books the church chose to promote to parents - on their own church website.

I wasn't trying to say all on the page was bad - I just cut and pasted the whole thing. The Dobson crap and the "Creative Corrections" are the ones I was talking about specifically.

~Tracy


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
No one else is appalled by this??

Not at all.

Mostly because I don't know much about those books.

I do however like Focus on the family, and I have never heard or seen anything that promotes spanking. I honestly don't know much about Dobson's books.

I DO like and own many, many Keven Leman books, and I agree with mostly everything I have read. I love his creative discipline ideas, and I am all for holding my child, or any child responsible when they make bad choices. I have never seen him support spanking or anything other than holding the child responsible. He even has several chapters in books devoted to how WE as parents set our kids up to fail, then blame the kid, and not ourselves. He points out how cruel that is to a child. He adores each of his kids, and there is no way they could possibly NOT know how loved they are.

I personally do not think the church is out of line. I think if you have a better book or bible study, or method that is in line with Christianity, you must approach the church with it. You can't go in there with a non christian based book and say "This is what you should be teaching". Surely there MUST be Christian based books that teach gentle discipline. Right? I wish I knew of one.

I went to a church who refused to teach "Growing Kids God's way" and several members left over that. I thought it was the most wonderful thing. Growing kids God's way is cruel, and even the hardest hearted people should be able to see that.

I personally think getting them to not only remove the Perl books, but also to speak to the church member is a great stride. It sounds like your church is open to learning new things.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Focus on the Family is a bigoted organization promoted by a huge bigot (James Dobson), who actively recommends hitting children as young as 18 months. Nothing to like there. Gross.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Focus on the Family is a bigoted organization promoted by a huge bigot (James Dobson), who actively recommends hitting children as young as 18 months. Nothing to like there. Gross.


Honestly, I have never heard that. When my dd was little, we would listen to the radio show "Adventures in odyssey" on the Focus on the family station. We loved that show. I even bought the Adventures in Odyssy CDs from their site.

Again, I don't know much about James Dobson. I have never listened to him, or read his books. I don't really know how I have missed out on hearing him. I was raised in a Christian church, and you would assume that I would have read his books at one point. But, somehow, I managed to dodge that bullet.

BUT, now that my interest has been peaked, I am going to check out his website. I am sure I will agree with you. I don't agree with bigotry or hitting at all.

LMAO... O.K, so I just went at looked. I spent less than two minutes there....

Quote:

*Q. Is there an age when you begin to spank?*

A. There is no excuse for spanking babies or children younger than 15 to 18 months of age. Even shaking an infant can cause brain damage and death at that delicate age! But midway through the second year (18 months), boys and girls become capable of knowing what you're telling them to do or not do. They can then very gently be held responsible for how they behave. Suppose a child is reaching for an electric socket or something that will hurt him. You say, "No!" but he just looks at you and continues reaching toward it. You can see the mischievous smile on his face as he thinks, I'm going to do it anyway! I'd encourage you to speak firmly so that he knows he is pushing past the limits. If he persists, slap his fingers just enough to sting. A small amount of pain goes a long way at that age and begins to introduce children to realities of the physical world and the importance of listening to what you say.

Through the next 18 months, you gradually establish yourself as the benevolent boss who means what you say and says what you mean. Contrary to what you have read in popular literature, this firm but loving approach to child rearing will not harm a toddler or make him violent. To the contrary, it is most likely to produce a healthy, confident child.










This part I agree with....

Of course I had to edit out the crap I don't agree with first.

Quote:

Ignore minor infractions. Often simply ignoring negative behavior can make it go away. However, never ignore behavior that is dangerous to the child or to others.

Say yes as much as possible. Parents say no several times a day but fail to say yes when they have the opportunity. Choose your battles wisely, allowing your child more freedom while maintaining limits.

Phrase commands in a positive way. Children respond better to commands that are specific. State what you want rather than what you don't want. Instead of saying, "Stop running," say, "You need to walk."

Be consistent. You want your child to know what to expect from you. Inconsistency confuses children and leads to further misbehavior


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Do.not.come.here.and.defend.Dobson.Period.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
Do.not.come.here.and.defend.Dobson.Period.

I'm wasn't defending him.

But, OK... I didn't actually see that in the rules though.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Sorry, I'm clearly over the edge about this topic. My 7.5 month pg hormones are not helping. I guess I just need to walk away from it.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
Sorry, I'm clearly over the edge about this topic. My 7.5 month pg hormones are not helping. I guess I just need to walk away from it.

I don't think you should walk away from it. Especially if you like the church.

I think you should help educate those in charge of the family and parenting ministries.

You could ask *here* if they have succesfully changed any minds at church. They might know what works.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
Do.not.come.here.and.defend.Dobson.Period.

Compared to Ezzo and the Pearl's, Dobson is Dr Sears.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

DOBSON:

Quote:

In his best-selling book, "The Strong-Willed Child," child-rearing author James Dobson describes how he abused his family's pet dachshund, Siggie:

"Please don't misunderstand me. Siggie is a member of our family and we love him dearly. And despite his anarchistic nature, I have finally taught him to obey a few simple commands. However, we had some classic battles before he reluctantly yielded to my authority.

"The greatest confrontation occurred a few years ago when I had been in Miami for a three-day conference. I returned to observe that Siggie had become boss of the house while I was gone. But I didn't realize until later that evening just how strongly he felt about his new position as Captain.

"At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.

"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

[Chris's commentary]: One of the greatest "secrets" of nonpunitive parenting (or pet-keeping) is "don't sweat the small stuff." If the dog is comfortable sitting on the toilet seat by the heater, why not let him sit there (so long as no one has to use the toilet at that particular moment)? Of course, for the neurotically-rigid James Dobson, sweating each and every little trivial, easily-avoidable non-issue and turning it into a battle of wills is the pure essense of what child discipline is all about. He writes:

"When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie's way of saying. "Get lost!"

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me "reason" with Mr. Freud."

[Commentary]: What Dobson never explains to his readers is WHY it was so essential that the dog sleep where Dobson wanted him to sleep instead of where the dog wanted to sleep. Dobson is behaving like a toddler who throws a violent tantrum if his "bedtime ritual" isn't adhered to down to the slightest detail. Making Siggie go to sleep on command where and when Dobson wants him to has been part of this overgrown toddler's bedtime ritual for six years. Now, Siggie is interfering with a small detail of this bedtime ritual of Dobson's by wanting to sleep somewhere else which is warmer and more comfortable. So Dobson, true to his infantile level of emotional maturity, throws a violent tantrum:

"What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!"

[Commentary]: This is one sick puppy, and I don't mean the dog, either. Dobson is OBSESSED with control. I suspect that this stems from the punitive upbringing he endured as a young child (and which he now praises, with unintended irony, for making him what he is today). Now that he is a grownup, and too old to spank, he is determined to get everything HIS way, by golly! He is a 200 pound, verbally articulate version of the "strong-willed" toddlers whom he always exhorts parents to whip into submission "with a belt or switch" because "pain is a marvelous purifier." Dobson is walking proof of how just how badly a spanked child can turn out. The fact that parents like this exist in the world is an excellent argument for why all forms of corporal punishment should be abolished forthwith.

Just in case the more slow-witted among his readers fail to grasp the obvious parallel between his relationship with his dog and the type of parenting advice the man as become rich and famous by dispensing, Dobson then lays it explicitly on the line:

"But this is not a book about the discipline of dogs; there is an important moral to my story that is highly relevant to the world of children. Just as surely as a dog will occasionally challenge the authority of his leaders, so will a little child -- only more so." (emphasis Dobson's)

Dobson says that his Focus On the Family organization is engaged in a "new civil war" in which the "forces of Light" (child hitters, homophobes, Operation Rescue, would-be censors, etc.) are pitted against the "forces of Darkness" (antispankers, gays and lesbians, Planned Parenthood, free speech advocates, etc.). This man treats dog ownership as a war, he treats childrearing as a war; indeed he appears to see his entire life as a war.

Dobson even views some crying babies as "little dictators" engaged in a bid to control and enslave their parents, and advises parents not to let the child "win" by picking up the child and soothing it. He warns that:

"_t is possible to create a fussy, demanding baby by rushing to pick him up every time he utters a whimper or sigh. Infants are fully capable of learning to manipulate their parents through a process called reinforcement, whereby any behavior that produces a pleasant result will tend to recur. Thus, a healthy baby can keep his mother hopping around his nursery twelve hours a day (or night) by simply forcing air past his sandpaper larynx."

_
_
_


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

DOBSON:
From page 36 of "The New Dare to Discipline"

Quote:

Dobson's wife whipped their 15 month old daughter for going onto the patio in the rain. Dobson says to show "parental warmth after such discipline" and to have a "Loving conclusion to the disciplinary encounter."
Yeah, this guy is right up there with Dr. Sears.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Compared to Ezzo and the Pearl's, Dobson is Dr Sears.

He's still an advocate of hitting babies and still an outspoken bigot.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Directly from the "Focus on the Family" website, ie DOBSON:

Quote:

There is some controversy over whether a parent should spank with his or her hand or with some other object, such as a belt or paddle. What do you recommend?
Answer

I recommend a neutral object of some type.

To those who disagree on this point, I'd encourage them to do what seems right. It is not a critical issue to me. The reason I suggest a switch or paddle is because the hand should be seen as an object of love -- to hold, hug, pat, and caress. However, if you're used to suddenly disciplining with the hand, your child may not know when she's about to be swatted and can develop a pattern of flinching when you make an unexpected move. This is not a problem if you take the time to use a neutral object.
And as we already saw from someone else's quote above, the small children who would be eligible for such a whipping or paddling would need to be at least 15 months old.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 

He and Dr. Sears should get together for coffee.

Now why would you wish something so dreadful on nice old dr. sears?!







:


----------



## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

I have to admit that when I first started reading this thread, I thought you were overreacting a bit, Wugmama. I know of Dobson and have never liked him - mostly because of his ideas about women. I had heard someone refer to Growing Kids God's Way as "Beating Kids God's Way," but I have not really looked into this info for myself. I figured I already don't like him, why even take the time to research him?

Anyway, I have never heard of Pearl - so I decided to check them out. WOW...I understand your outrage!!! Just browsing their website made me wish it was a joke of some sort. It is so horrible. Their advice about babies breaks my heart.

It truly saddens me that so many "Christians" are so off the mark with that stuff. I am a committed follower of Christ and I don't understand how one could read the Bible and come up with this stuff! Many people at my church think I "baby" my DS (who is the ripe old age of 8 months). I don't know why all Christians don't at least TRY to do GD. I understand that we all struggle, and sometimes its hard to do GD, but shouldn't that be the goal?

Anyway, good for you for bringing light to the issue. Even if you don't agree with the rest of their recommendations, you've got the congregation and leadership thinking.


----------



## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Just to clarify, "Growing Kids' God's Way" is a nauseating piece of work written by Ezzo, not Dobson.


----------



## runnerbrit (May 24, 2006)

uke I had never heard of Pearl so I went to their site. uke

It is horrible! I had never heard those things about Dobson either (I have never read his stuff).

Wugmama, good for you! After reading the stuff these people have written on I can only imagine how you felt when you found the material.


----------



## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Yes, I do think this is worth taking a stand. I wish someone had offered me an alternative twenty seven years ago when I was a new mom trying my best to learn from other moms at church and by listening to the pastor recommended books by Dobson and Dobson's radio show. I loved my daughter very much and wanted to be the very best mother I could be. I did do some AP stuff then by instinct like nursing and co-sleeping but I felt tremendous pressure to do things the way the church taught.

Over the years I have come to regret listening to much of that teaching and have become a much gentler, kinder, independant and confident parent. I was actually "saved" by another mom in the church who went against the flow and we became good friends when oldest dd was three. She was the first one I knew to step around the "rules" and homeschool, practice CLW, whole foods and many other ideas that are seen as the norm on MDC. She never critized me or the church but showed me by example how to be a better mother.

There is a big difference in the level of attachment I see in my oldest DD and her much younger siblings ages 17-4.

So not to go overlong I think there is tremendous benefit in speaking up in love about these issues and showing by example that there is a gentler way to parent.


----------



## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Just to clarify, "Growing Kids' God's Way" is a nauseating piece of work written by Ezzo, not Dobson.

Oh yeah, you're right! See, I told you I don't know much about Dobson...


----------



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
the pastor would recommend Grace Based Discipline by Tim Kimmel. That sounded about as good as it gets to me. I read reviews on the Kimmel book and I thought (mistakenly) it was anti-spanking (although very low-key still condones spanking).

Where does Kimmel condone spanking? I've read most of Grace Based Parenting. Maybe it's in the part I haven't read yet?

ETA: I googled to find out if he does condone spanking. I found from several sources that he's against "hot saucing" kids:

_Tim Kimmel, a parenting expert who said he approaches parenting from an evangelical Christian perspective, has heard from parents that hot sauce works well. But he does not approve.

"Just because something works, that doesn't mean it's a good idea," said Kimmel, author of "Grace-Based Parenting" (W Publishing Group).

"Fear can be very effective as a discipline technique, but it's overkill. You haven't corrected the problem, and it means nothing in terms of building character. Our job as parents is to build character, not to adjust behavior."_


----------



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

According to this article in a salon.com article from May 2006 Kimmel's book opposes spanking:

Quote:

Indeed, not sparing the rod is the norm among Christian parenting books. Ted Tripp's 1995 book "Shepherding a Child's Heart," which endorses judicious spanking, was recently at No. 37 on Christian Retailing magazine's list of bestsellers; *the same magazine, last October, called W Publishing "one of the first major Christian publishing houses to publish a book that is opposed to spanking children." (The book is "Grace-Based Parenting" by Dr. Tim Kimmel.*)
I have really enjoyed what I've read of Grace Based Parenting and was going to be very disappointed to find he condoned spanking.

Here's a link to the whole article for anyone who is interested. It's about child abuse and the Pearls. http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Just keep reading the Tim Kimmel book, you will get to the part where he talks about spanking his own dd.

I was so impressed with the book and thinking, "FINALLY! A good Christian GD book!". When I got to that part I was so disgusted and dissapointed I threw the book across the room.









~Tracy


----------



## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Unfortunately, it's hard to find any completely non-punitive Christian books.







I'm sorry you're going through this, Tracy. Punishment is sooooo entrenched in Christian circles, but fortunately there's a few of us willing to start making a difference!


----------



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
Just keep reading the Tim Kimmel book, you will get to the part where he talks about spanking his own dd.

That sure is disappointing. What a bummer. I'll make it a priority to get back into that book since I go around recommending it so often.


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Maybe you're confusing it with the Grace-Based Discipline by Crystal Lutton? She's supposed to be very gentle (haven't read her book though). I think her book is called Biblical Parenting.

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...rystal/gbd.php

Here are a couple of reviews on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...&link_code=as1

Sounds like a good book to recommend -- and yes, read it first to form your own opinion!

BTW, I really like Dr. Sears. I think what he has to say is very common-sense.


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

:


----------



## josephine_e (May 27, 2006)

i just wanted to throw in my support! i think that speaking up was the absolute right thing to do -- i also support your decision to pull out when you weren't being heard. if it was just you, it would be one thing, but you have your dd to think about and i know from personal experience that negative messages DO get through from church "authorities" at a very young age. even if she isn't "disciplined" by the people who think this way, i think just the idea that hitting ANYONE is okay, is completely un-Christian. (don't i remember some really nice guy, about 2000 years ago, say something about the other cheek??)

good for you for being brave! i hope you can find a spiritual community that upholds your values!


----------



## sisterfunkhaus (Jun 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
No one else is appalled by this??

I expect that from some churches. It's just not a surprise. With many conservative religions it is a part of their dogma and ideology. And while I don't advocate the use of that type of discipline, I'm not the type to tell a religious establishment with that as an integral part of their ideology what to do. I would just go find another church and write them a letter telling them why.


----------



## sisterfunkhaus (Jun 24, 2007)

Another alternative I can see is offering to teach a GD seminar. You could draw up a syllabus/outline and present it to the minister. I think a class like that would be well received by many people. Some parents may not understand or know about the alternatives. A lot of people, including myself were raised being spanked and raged at and they don't know any different. They were also raised with it as part of their religious belief system, so they see it as being right. They see it as being God's way. They don't think that they are misinterpreting the Bible. They just see it as doing God's will. Does that make it right? No. But, they don't know the alternatives until they are presented with them. GD is something that is learned. It isn't always a natural behavior. You could really offer a service to see about teaching a class like this at your church. You might be surprised at how many people are yearning to learn other methods.


----------

