# "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

This new book is wonderful on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. In many ways, for me, it's preaching to the choir. At least, theoretically. Lately however, I've had this nagging feeling that at times, my parenting philosophy and my actions are not one and the same. Although I tell myself that I love my child unconditionally, I do often wonder if that is getting across to my son.

Quote:

How we feel about our kids isn't as important as how they experience those feelings and how they regard the way we treat them. - Alfie Kohn
This book has confirmed for me that there are indeed some inconsistencies that pop up in my parenting (particularly when I start to concern myself with what others may think). But overall, it's helped me feel pretty good about things. And has taught and/or reinforced some ideas I needed to replay in my head. It's also lended me just that much more insight and appreciation for treating our children with the respect and kindness they so deserve. And for me, who overthinks things to death, it's helped me to relax--keeping my long-term goals in mind rather than being concerned with every little obedience in the moment. You know, like allowing my child be the four year old he is and stop sweating things so much as I've been tending to do lately. *sigh* I just don't know what's gotten into me lately, but I'm thankful this book happened about when it did. Just what I needed!

Of course, it's a fav now and will have to be eventually purchased (I'm reading a library copy) and put up on the shelf right next to "Playful Parenting." The two will make one heckuva reference section!

Anyone else reading? If not, I HIGHLY recommend.

Anyone care to discuss?









The best,
Em


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Wow.. what you quoted really hit home. I've been ruminating over this one lately. How does ds perceive me loving and taking care of him? He's a totally new person and undoubtedly sees things in his own unique way and very possibly different from our perspectives (dh and I). I've been reading From Here to Serenity by Jane Nelsen and on the concept of separate realities. That is so true. This book by Alfie Kohn intrigues me.

I would LOVE to read this book. I saw it at B&N and was tempted. However, I already have so many books! I love all my books, but I'm so interested in parenting, psychology, children, etc. that I'm compelled to read (and.. gulp.. buy) more.

No copy at my local library, unfortunately.

Just curious: are there any bad words in the book? I was reading a review on Amazon and one reviewer was appalled that in one of Alfie Kohn's books the children were saying bad words/obscenities to their parents. I'm a stickler about that since I don't swear at all. Since you're reading it, Embee, I had to ask









Seems mighty interesting, Unconditional Parenting!


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I didn't know he had a new book out - that sounds really interesting! I loved punished by rewards. I will definitely check it out.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
Wow.. what you quoted really hit home. I've been ruminating over this one lately. How does ds perceive me loving and taking care of him? He's a totally new person and undoubtedly sees things in his own unique way and very possibly different from our perspectives (dh and I). I've been reading From Here to Serenity by Jane Nelsen and on the concept of separate realities. That is so true.









Sagira - would you mind sharing your experiences







: with your DS? What have you done exactly?

We are stuck in a pattern... DS is being aggressive to the baby (trying to flick her with his finger). He gets a kick out of it.







When I confront him - "why are you doing that? Do you feel angry?" He says "I dunno..." and wants to leave, get away, not face it... denies any angry feelings or any aggression.









So it keeps happening, and I have to remain calm







: and non-punitive. And now I've got my sister telling me to watch Supernanny.









*Buying too many books.*
Sagira - buy the book.







It's OK... all us parents need all the help we can get! A book is cheap - compared to taking a class, going to psychotherapy :LOL or having a private consultation with the author (I'm going to do this with Aletha Solter.) A good book is a gift to yourself, your child, and the world. Do not feel guilty. Get it!

My parenting library keeps growing too.







I do not feel this is a bad thing.

DH told me something that I hope will change my life... he said I can listen to books on tape with an IPOD.







WOW - the first thing I'm going to do is get Becky Bailey's books or CDs and turn them into MP3!!! That will help me soooo much!!! My problem is I buy them and don't make time to read them.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
We are stuck in a pattern... DS is being aggressive to the baby (trying to flick her with his finger). He gets a kick out of it.







When I confront him - "why are you doing that? Do you feel angry?" He says "I dunno..." and wants to leave, get away, not face it... denies any angry feelings or any aggression.

















Tanya, I used to ask my DS "why" alot and of course, he'd always say "i dunno" or come up with some crazy unrelated reason such as the blue dog ran up the tree.?. And then I read that asking a child why they do something isn't a question most can easily answer - most adults don't know why they do what they do and react how they do. It takes a lot of self knowledge to answer that.

So, now I ask him what he's feeling after doing what he did and if he remembers what he was feeling before. I think being a bit more specific (what are you feeling rather than why did you do that) has helped us. He still can't always iterate his feelings so there's still times when there's a big question mark in the motivation category, but that's true for myself and my actions and feelings some days. I do try to model what I'm looking from him in this, so when I swear or cry or slam the door a little loudly on the way out etc I try to remember to let him know why (he often asks that). "wow. I didn't mean to slam the door so loudly. I was so frustrated I couldn't find my wallet and worried we were going to be late. I hope I didn't scare you/ hurt your ears, whatever."

On topic:

I can't wait to read this book. It's definitely the next book I'm buying.


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## maybelle (Jan 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*







Tanya, I used to ask my DS "why" alot and of course, he'd always say "i dunno" or come up with some crazy unrelated reason such as the blue dog ran up the tree.?. And then I read that asking a child why they do something isn't a question most can easily answer - most adults don't know why they do what they do and react how they do. It takes a lot of self knowledge to answer that.

Please tell me where you read this. I *know* this already, but DH won't take my word for it! Perhaps seeing it written somewhere will hold more authority with him.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

maybelle....one book you can read it in is "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey. I just happen to be reading it right now. I was going to post the same reply to TaniBani. Kids can't really answer that question (as is true for many adults). Kids just ACT on emotions, and often don't know what they are feeling or why they act the way they do. So you should never ask them "why did you do X" or "are you angry". Instead use teaching phrases like "your fists are all balled up, your face is scrunched up, you seem angry" or "i think you wanted your baby sister to move out of your way, but you didn't know how to tell her so you pushed her". stuff like that. Bailey's book has a whole section that deals with this.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
I would LOVE to read this book. I saw it at B&N and was tempted. However, I already have so many books! I love all my books, but I'm so interested in parenting, psychology, children, etc. that I'm compelled to read (and.. gulp.. buy) more.

No copy at my local library, unfortunately.

Sagira, I'm a book person too. I've had the pleasure of reading many excellent parenting books (Kids Are Worth It, Kids, Parents and Power Struggles, How To Talk..., Raising Cain, etc.) This book in particular has really helped me to articulate my own philosophy even to myself. I mentioned in my OP, that between it and Playful Parenting, I feel I have what I need to really think about what's important... rather than focusing way too much on certain behaviors, I'm realizing more and more (and more!) that it's about the relationship I have with DS that makes all the difference.

Incidentally, I've been trying to curb the book buying as well. Our library has an on-line service where you can make purchasing suggestions. I asked them to order it and they did! The held it for me right away! Woopee!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
Just curious: are there any bad words in the book? I was reading a review on Amazon and one reviewer was appalled that in one of Alfie Kohn's books the children were saying bad words/obscenities to their parents. I'm a stickler about that since I don't swear at all. Since you're reading it, Embee, I had to ask









Bad words? Um, no. Strange. Could the reviewer have been referring perhaps to a reference to a certain behavior explained in one of his other books? I've heard punished by rewards is also excellent. This is the first book I've read by him and I'd be thrilled to read more. His language is very readable and it continues to "hit home" sentence after sentence, paragraph after paragraph, page after page.


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## lizamann (Dec 2, 2004)

I've been planning on writing a cogent, thought out and thorough review of this book, but will instead jump in and ramble!!

"-let go of the belief that I can control my children's behavior.
-let go of the belief that I should control my children's behavior
-let go of the belief that if I'm a good mother, if I'm using the right techniques, my kids will not misbehave
-let go of the need or desire to have other people think I'm a good mother, to let go of caring what other adults think
-let go of the word "misbehavior", of the idea that kids do things we don't like out of choice and to test limits "

This quote from Sledg in her other thread really seems to sum up Kohn's theme to me. I loved the first part of the book where he explains why this is so important, and sites studies and explains why.

I thought the second part of the book, the part with the "suggestions" was a little weak. But not in a bad way. I think he definitely feels the relationship is the important thing, so doesn't give specific suggestions on purpose. I don't know how popular this book will be with "mainstream" parents he seems to think are his audience. There are no Magical steps to follow, or no "new language" to speak, so I think those types who want a quick fix (and who need to radically change things the most) won't bother reading it. I think the people reading, though, like Embee, are mostly in his choir.

I have to look thru the book again and come up with more...


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Saw this at B&N, too. And, like you, Embee, I'm feeling that my goals for parenting and my daily parenting are not always one in the same. Gotta figure that one out...


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
There are no Magical steps to follow, or no "new language" to speak, so I think those types who want a quick fix (and who need to radically change things the most) won't bother reading it.

I haven't read this one, but I found this to be the case with Punished by Rewards too - the first half of the book really reeled me in and made me totally question using praise and how we talk to our kids, but then the second half didn't tell me how I should talk to them, I didn't feel like I really finished with a clear idea of what I was supposed to do. But I read that book over a year and a half ago before my daughter was verbal and I've found that subconsciously what he said stuck with me and I just don't use the constant praise and judgement words at all - I've found my own way around it. In some way its better because I dont' feel like I 'didn't say the right thing' - I'm still just being me.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Tanibani, I apologize for getting your hopes up and not being clear enough







I meant that when my son was born, he was born a totally new person, a unique human being with unique perspectives.

And I keep that in mind when I interact with him and as he gets older and more verbal (he's 19 mos. now) I will ask him "What" and "How" questions to gain understanding of his unique perspective on life. I'm truly curious how he thinks, what makes him tick, etc.

Tanibani and Embee: Hehe..







I've got reasons to justify buying the book now -- thanks! Perhaps, I AM studying.. I'm planning on becoming a child psychologist with a focus on parenting in five years or so..

Embee: Great idea on the request! I haven't thought of that. See if they'll listen to me. If not I can always buy the book, read it, then donate it to the library so others can read it and I can always borrow it again









OK.. Tanibani, I know other mamas have already replied to your situation, but I may be able to contribute something. You could ask your ds (with genuine curiosity, no accusatory tone, if you need to wait until you're calm before you do this): What were you trying to do?

Or you could also try to guess his feelings. Sit down with him on the couch (like suggested in Playful Parenting: the couch part, not what's next) "I'm guessing sometimes you're happy with baby but other times you're angry at baby". Then listen to him talk about his feelings.

If he doesn't want to talk, wait until he's in a better and more receptive mood before you bring up anything. In the heat of the moment our reptilian brain takes over and what do we do? Fight or flight. Not a good thing for either parent or child when trying to solve a conflict!

Hope I could have been of some help. Yes, I agree with the mamas that "Why" questions can be perceived as an inquisition and many times we ourselves don't know why we did something.

I just thought of one more: you could also try to describe what you see, e.g. I see a baby who has been flicked off and is now upset. What can do about this? Invite the child to solve the problem, it be a hug, etc.

I guess it depends on your child, but there are always more than two suggestions you can try. Let us know if anything seemed to work!

Cheers,


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
"-let go of the belief that I can control my children's behavior.
-let go of the belief that I should control my children's behavior
-let go of the belief that if I'm a good mother, if I'm using the right techniques, my kids will not misbehave
-let go of the need or desire to have other people think I'm a good mother, to let go of caring what other adults think
-let go of the word "misbehavior", of the idea that kids do things we don't like out of choice and to test limits "

These are the very points in the book that have helped me to RELAX. What a relief to say the least! In particular, I can't believe how many of my parenting ideals have been washed out lately by my concern about what other people are thinking. Indeed, DS at four is a totally brand-new person: more unpredictable, more of a dare-devil, more vocal, more emotionally raw. It's the first time I've had a difficult time adjusting to new and exciting behaviors, and I think because so much of the "rawness" seems to come out in public places like for instance, the library.







At any rate, since reading the book, it's been much easier to focus on DS in these instances and realize that he's just being a kid. When I'm not worried about what others are thinking, I can actually think clearly and help DS (and me!) get through a difficult spot. I'm much less likely to resort to coercion. He and I can truly connect and we both, for the most part, stay calm and work through it together.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
This quote from Sledg in her other thread really seems to sum up Kohn's theme to me. I loved the first part of the book where he explains why this is so important, and sites studies and explains why.

I thought the second part of the book, the part with the "suggestions" was a little weak. But not in a bad way. I think he definitely feels the relationship is the important thing, so doesn't give specific suggestions on purpose.

Reading this book has has been an interesting transtion for me. The first parenting/discipline book I ever read was _Kids Are Worth It_ by Barbara Coloroso. I remember liking it's overall theme, but being frustrated by the lack of specific advice and examples. Being new to the discipline arena, this was very important to me at the time. Then, I read _How To Talk..._ and it was like, "ahhhh." A book written in a similar mindset as _Kids_, but with tons of examples and techniques. I realized the importance of overall philosophy, but what I thought I really needed was "my words" available for any given situation.

Apparently however, my needs are shifting. When I began reading Kohn's book, one of the first items he addressed was that when we focus too much on "behavior" and obtaining obedience in the moment, we can easily allow our long-term goals for our child to slip through the cracks. Ya know, like self-security, confidence, ability to think for him/herself... eek.

Quote:

It's the child who engages in a behavior, not just the behavior itself, that matters. - Alfie Kohn
Statements like these have not only hit home for me, but helped me tap into my own resources for answers. I realize I've had them all along, but somehow they get lost among all sorts of needless external factors. As I've read on, I have quite literally felt tension easing out of my body. Indeed, I've cringed at some of the things he points out that I could be doing much better, but overall, I know it's within my power to change those things. I'd go so far as to say that "Unconditional Parenting" is the first of a more "general philosophy" book that has truly empowered me. Before, it was like, "This sounds great, but I just don't have the implementation skills." Now, it's ever so clear that behavior itself is neither here nor there, but the "relationship I have with my child" that truly dictates the weather. (Hey, maybe this is some sort of personal growth thing for me!







) At any rate, DH and I were so relieved by this mainly because we already know exactly the things we need do to keep the relationship between DS and ourselves on good footing: we spend time with him. Truly focused time. We play as much as possible, and here he takes the lead. We don't expect more of him than is develpmentally appropriate, we say YES a lot and realize that there are enough non-negotiable NOs in his life that we don't need to add to them for our own convenience or because we're feeling too lazy to help him make things happen. We talk less, listen more, involve him in decisions, yada yada yada... you get the picture.

Yikes, serious rambling here. I really can't say enough about this wonderfully insightful book. Alas, my husband and son are jamming VERY LOUDLY in the background and my concentration is a bit limited.









Hope this disussion grows and more people read the book! Can't wait to read more perspectives and experiences!

The best,
Em


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Embee-Thanks







Your last post above has confirmed for me that I should get or borrow this book if it hits our library. I really can relate to your words and some of your parenting struggles.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm reading this, not done (no time lately). I agree it's a great book, and seems to me to focus first and foremost on the relationship between parent and child and not so much on concrete suggestions about what to do when this or that happens, what to say, etc. It's the kind of book that I would have found frustrating even a year ago, because of the lack of "when they do this, you do that" type of advice-that's what I was looking for then. I think he does a nicer job explaining what books like "Easy to Love" and "Kids Are Worth It" and others are trying to say. I wish he'd written it years ago, because I think what he's saying is the absolute best parenting advice. The whole idea of letting go of the desire to control and (in his words) "_working with_" rather than "_doing to_" our children is really, I think, the key to parenting well. First, get in the "working with" mindset _then_ the use the techniques-the active listening, the nonviolent communication, giving choices, etc. I can tell you all that when active listening isn't getting us anywhere, it's because I'm still trying to control my kids and make them do something-I can say "I hear that you're sad" until I'm blue in the face but I'm going to be really frustrated (and so are they) as long as what I'm trying to do is make them stop crying (whereas if my goal is simply to help my kids feel heard and to empathize, they might still be crying but I'm not frustrated and they know I love and accept them-and things don't escalate to something worse). KWIM?

Definitely worth reading, IMO. I even think it was worth splurging and buying it in hardcover (I never buy books in hardcover-too expensive).


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
OK.. Tanibani, I know other mamas have already replied to your situation, but I may be able to contribute something. You could ask your ds (with genuine curiosity, no accusatory tone, if you need to wait until you're calm before you do this): What were you trying to do?











Actually, I've been doing * something * right because he is opening up lately... FINALLY! (BTW, I'm skimming the P.E.T. book which has helped me get the whole concept that Kohn is trying to say with his book - be partners, not adversaries...)

and instead of saying "WHY did you do that!" after the fact, I have been asking "wow, you must really be feeling angry inside."

anyway today he admitted to me that he feels rushed in the mornings and I'm always rushing, rushing, rushing him. I think he feels bossed around and powerless.

nak

sledg - i think u hit the nail on the head.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I think he does a nicer job explaining what books like "Easy to Love" and "Kids Are Worth It" and others are trying to say. I wish he'd written it years ago, because I think what he's saying is the absolute best parenting advice.

ITA! The one thing that keeps going through my mind as I read is, I wish he'd written this about 3 or 4 years ago. Not that I haven't read some great books (and gotten some excellent advice right here at MDC







). BUT, there is certainly something about his writing/thought process that is truly getting through and sort of effortlessly helping me to apply it to real life. Does that make any sense?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
The whole idea of letting go of the desire to control and (in his words) "_working with_" rather than "_doing to_" our children is really, I think, the key to parenting well. First, get in the "working with" mindset _then_ the use the techniques-the active listening, the nonviolent communication, giving choices, etc. I can tell you all that when active listening isn't getting us anywhere, it's because I'm still trying to control my kids and make them do something-I can say "I hear that you're sad" until I'm blue in the face but I'm going to be really frustrated (and so are they) as long as what I'm trying to do is make them stop crying (whereas if my goal is simply to help my kids feel heard and to empathize, they might still be crying but I'm not frustrated and they know I love and accept them-and things don't escalate to something worse). KWIM?

Wow, talk about hitting home. Our intentions count for so much. Trying to control what is not within my control has been a life-long battle for me. Through DS though, I'm learning. I'm learning. Indeed, when things go awry and my inner voice is saying "This is ok. It's normal. Just be there for him and give him time to work it through." I can get through anything and help DS through anything. OTOH, if my inner voice is fixated on what that lady in the other grocery line is thinking, I might as well forget it. Ain't nothin' gonna save me when other people's thoughts of me or my DS crowd out my clear, sensitive thinking. What can I say? I, like DS am a work in progress.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

sounds like one of those books i'm just gonna have to go out and buy.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
sounds like one of those books i'm just gonna have to go out and buy.









Ayup!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
The whole idea of letting go of the desire to control and (in his words) "_working with_" rather than "_doing to_" our children is really, I think, the key to parenting well.

This is something that resonates with me. One thing that I struggle with is discussing 'tactics, strategies, methods and etc.' when we talk about our relationship with our kids. Yea, I need some of this to get through the day and I share what "works" (another phrase I don't like) but it still feels wrong to me somehow.

Checking for the book...


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm not finished yet, but I am absolutely loving this book. It's the first one that has actually made me stop and think about my entire mindset.

Last night, for instance, my 5 (almost 6!) year old was doing his typical refusal to settle down for sleep. This isn't something I've ever fought with him about (he has autism -- sleep issues are a part of that for him), but it is something that has irritated me -- especially since his 3 (almost 4!) year old sister refuses to leave him and she *needs* more sleep. So last night while I was irritated about the "behavior problem," I read the part in the book about how what we define as "behavior problems" are often legitimate conflicts -- we just get to call them "behavior problems" because we have more power. That stopped me cold. I realized that my son had a legitimate conflict -- I wanted him to sleep and he just wasn't tired yet. So instead of doing my usual routine of coaxing and reasoning (doesn't work when his body's needs are more pressing), I let him alone. I took his sister in to her bed to cuddle since she was ready for sleep but couldn't leave big brother on her own. She was asleep within 2 minutes. Within 10 minutes, my son came into the room to cuddle with us. 10 minutes after that, he took himself off to his own room and went to bed.

Now that I'm considering everything else with that mindset, I realize that I can probably change most of our rough areas. I don't need strategies so that isn't a problem for me -- I just needed a shift of view.

Thanks for listening -- this is probably too long, but I was so excited I wanted to share.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I had to comment that I'm about a third of the way in and I LOVE THIS BOOK.

It's so great, interesting, well written.

I love the fact that it's all backed up by research and how well Mr. Kohn describes the methodology of the research. He's much more specific than the vague "studies show" junk in most parenting books.

I could go on and on....

The best thing about a good pareting book is how it helps us understand ourselves and our motivations as well. this one goes so deep to getting at the roots of our values when it comes to kids, acheivement, behavior, etc.

Really groundbreaking!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Oh- I wanted to throw in that I love his commentary on "natural consequences" and how it teaches kids not to trust is to help them when they need it.

I've gone through this both about food (dinner) and clothes (jacket) and I totally agree that using a kid's choices againt him or her is kinda mean, and that a better way is to help them figure out how to get out of the predicament they are in, and help them learn to make good decision (rather than basically allowing them to get punished for bad decisions.)

I mean sometimes I decide not to eat and later realize it was stupid. I'd be annoyed if someone suggested I not stop for food because "I'd made a choice and had to learn to pay the consequences."

Totally interesting...


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## OhMel (Oct 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I love the fact that it's all backed up by research and how well Mr. Kohn describes the methodology of the research. He's much more specific than the vague "studies show" junk in most parenting books.

Yes! This is what I like most about this book. I like a book with a bibliography! I just requested a bunch of his other books because this one really resonated with me.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Oh- I wanted to throw in that I love his commentary on "natural consequences" and how it teaches kids not to trust is to help them when they need it.

I've gone through this both about food (dinner) and clothes (jacket) and I totally agree that using a kid's choices againt him or her is kinda mean, and that a better way is to help them figure out how to get out of the predicament they are in, and help them learn to make good decision (rather than basically allowing them to get punished for bad decisions.)

I mean sometimes I decide not to eat and later realize it was stupid. I'd be annoyed if someone suggested I not stop for food because "I'd made a choice and had to learn to pay the consequences."

Totally interesting...

Indeed! Do I want my child to "suffer the consequences" so as he might "learn" something, or do I want my child to be the beneficiary of the kind of caring actions that he can see himself as capable of having?


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## pioneermama (Aug 3, 2002)

Thanks Embee for suggesting this book! I'm part way in but so far I find it so refreshing to read!

Of course, I realize as I'm reading I've got some more things to work on in my parenting


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

This is kinda OT:
I am interested in Kohn's idea's about positive reinforcement. I have not read any of his books yet but maybe you guys can help me understand. As working mom I took my 6 wk off and read "Playful Parenting" and "How to talk..." I really don't know when I'll get to read again with my active little guy. Kohn's books sound very interesting and I hope to make the time to read them.
In the meantime, I find that I use praise ALOT to guide DS's behavior. Since he is only 12 months, I feel it's all I've got at times. Other than removal from the situation, distraction, and other play. I have been trying to say "Thank you" when he is doing the appropriate behavior. I think this is still just Praise though. Most of the current issues are around oral stuff. He likes to put everything in his mouth. Most stuff I can tolerate but dirt, wood chips, and rocks, I have a problem with.
So for any of you who have read Kohn's books does he discuss small children or is he mainly talking about older kids. DS doesn't have much reasoning skills yet.
Anyway thanks for any input.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo*
This is kinda OT:
I am interested in Kohn's idea's about positive reinforcement. I have not read any of his books yet but maybe you guys can help me understand. As working mom I took my 6 wk off and read "Playful Parenting" and "How to talk..." I really don't know when I'll get to read again with my active little guy. Kohn's books sound very interesting and I hope to make the time to read them.
In the meantime, I find that I use praise ALOT to guide DS's behavior. Since he is only 12 months, I feel it's all I've got at times. Other than removal from the situation, distraction, and other play. I have been trying to say "Thank you" when he is doing the appropriate behavior. I think this is still just Praise though. Most of the current issues are around oral stuff. He likes to put everything in his mouth. Most stuff I can tolerate but dirt, wood chips, and rocks, I have a problem with.
So for any of you who have read Kohn's books does he discuss small children or is he mainly talking about older kids. DS doesn't have much reasoning skills yet.
Anyway thanks for any input.

I like Mr. Kohn's point that if you are considering these issues, you are already on the right track. My dd is 2.5 and I too have to make many decisions for her, though of course not as many as for a one year old. I find that I feel most comfortable when I basically inform my dd that we simply have to do whatever it is, and I'lm very sorry if it makes her sad. I ask for her cooperation, but I don't grudge her if she can't give it to me.

Anyway- I gotta run, mor later.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Because of this thread (which I haven't even read all the way through...) I had to go out and buy the book. On the cover it says "A provocative challenge to the conventional wisdom about discipline". I thought to myself "yeah, right...it's all been said before, just by different authors". Well, I was wrong. I have way too many discipline books...I can honestly say that this really is different. At the same time, it makes so much sense (so far). I can't wait to participate in a discussion about the book more fully.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

This was painful reading for me. With other GD books, I am mostly going through the book and saying "nothing new, I always do this", or "I could easily do this", and I can easily pick up ideas and implement them "on the run". I do play a lot with the kids. I do say yes as often as I can. I do give them choices on small things like dressing and eating.
However, unconditional parenting made me realize I really need to rethink through so many things. For instance, he gives the example of "hiding the remote control" in order to limit TV viewing. Now, that's exactly what I do. I do not want arguments!
The "psedochoices" talk: now that's me! And, I did take it from the "How to talk so that kids will listen" which I have always thought is an excellent book.
I need to relax controlling them and it just scares me...
I also find that in many ways my apartment is so baby-proofed (we rented while I was pregnant and I arranged it in view of having a child) that it disempowers kids a lot.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Gaialice (sp?)-
I think it's really great that you are re-thinking things from reading a book. It's so easy to get defensive when your beleifs are brought into question and it's a rare person who is reflective and open enough to question themselves.

I don't know if anyone else had this experience....

But reading this has made me kinda hypersensitive to the world around me and how messed up it is. I notice ALL the overcontrolling parenting out there- on the playground, on TV, in books. The worst for me is the bad parenting being "marketed" as good parenting.

The tendency to control little children is unquestioned everywhere. In my neighborhood i'm like a revolutionary because I let dd chose her clothes, even if I don't really like her choice. There are limits, but I try to keep them few. But i'm like- this poor kid have no control whatsoever over her life, who cares if she choses something innapropriate to wear?

I'm actually having a tough time even reading MDC nowadays. So many of the things brought up as "behavioral issues" are simply normal development. Plus it irritates me how many people have no problem enforcing their will without apology or consideration on their kids (esp. if they are young.) i know these are good mammas, but how can my one response counter an entire culture's message?

I could just go on and on, and after reading this book it's honestly hard for me to hear it. From freinds, from parents, etc.

It's also hard for me to think about jails, our justice system, the whole concept of punishment, etc.

I'm PG so maybe that's where the hypersensitivity comes from. I hops that's it because I don't want to be crazy judgemental about this stuff forever.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:

In my neighborhood i'm like a revolutionary because I let dd chose her clothes, even if I don't really like her choice. There are limits, but I try to keep them few. But i'm like- this poor kid have no control whatsoever over her life, who cares if she choses something innapropriate to wear?
We do this. DD has been voicing her clothes choices since she was 18 months old. She is so into her clothes and she is just 3! But she has been dressing herself for months and months, and can really do a good job herself. She is also pink obsessed.







But I figure it is so important to her, why should I tell her what to wear?? Most kids I know her age are much more coordinated, but I think how sad that they obviously didn't get to pick themselves (well, I know a lot of kids also don't care, but coming from what goes on at my house, I can't imagine!)

Based on this thread, I am just got Uncondional Parenting, and I expect it will be quite eye opening for me. Course, I am currently reading it in half page increments because I am constantly interrupted or too tired for more!









I really want to reign in my controlling tendencies because DD is a good kid who can make good choices for herself, I know, and sometimes I can feel myself stepping in just because, and it just doesn't feel good.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I am lucky because I've been blessed with a child who HATES to be controlled. I have had most of my controlling tendencies wrung out of me by the fact that there really is no forcing my dd to do stuff she doesn't want to do. (Well, I can force, but it's like pulling teeth, so my life is much easier when I keep it to a minumum.)

I guess this book was really helpful to me because I feel like I can stop feeling guilty for not forcing my kid to wear socks, or pajamas, or brush her hair every day, or do what I say all the time just cuz I say it. I can't beleive the societal pressure to do all these things. It's like I'm negligent, or a pushover because I won't make me kid wear a turtleneck. (This is Seattle, it would be a challenge to die of hypothermia most of the year.)

Even though I think I'm pretty uncontrolling (in that I don't force stuff) I do notice that I tell my kid to do or not do something at least once an hour, probably more than that. Even though I only insist she does a few things a day, I hear myself correcting her a lot more- it's like a compulsion, and that compulsion is WAY worse in public.

sometimes I hear myslef saying something to my dd when we are out and I wonder, who am I saying this for? For the lady ringing up my groceries?

Anway, just thinking out loud. Gotta run.

I think we need an "Unconditional Parenting" support group.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

GREAT.....another book to add to my TO BUY list!!!


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

I'm gonna see if I can get a look at it from a library, don't have much money for books, but I feel right now I really need something like this to "fix" up my parenting. Before the move/her turning two/the baby (all in a few months), I felt like things were pretty good, but I've fallen into a rut where I feel I am not being a very constructive parent - always hear myself saying to dd1 "no, don't do this, don't do that" , and not being nice or respectful, and feeling like she's out of control (especially when it comes to hurting baby). I feel like the parent of my own nightmares, and I want to change, improve. Ok, I guess I'm rambling...
sounds like a good book!


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## Patchfire (Dec 11, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Even though I think I'm pretty uncontrolling (in that I don't force stuff) I do notice that I tell my kid to do or not do something at least once an hour, probably more than that. Even though I only insist she does a few things a day, I hear myself correcting her a lot more- it's like a compulsion, and that compulsion is WAY worse in public.

sometimes I hear myslef saying something to my dd when we are out and I wonder, who am I saying this for? For the lady ringing up my groceries?

I have noticed the same tendency in myself. I really started noticing how much I'll say 'no,' or similar, when really, a lot of the time, the problem started with dh or I - if we don't want her to have a popsicle, why did we buy them? Et cetera. And I'm not immune to people's glances and discreet eye-rolling and judgmental attitudes - I'm in a very 'mainstream' parenting group, and a couple of weeks ago dd had an outburst because she was 'about to play' with a toy and another little girl got there first. I didn't do anything but remind her that the toy had been sitting there without anyone playing with it, and held her while she cried. I mean, geez, she's had enough upheaval in the last month or so, w/ ds being born, I know for a fact that her reaction came out of that. But I saw a couple of other mothers exchange looks. *sigh* I wish I was more immune to these things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I think we need an "Unconditional Parenting" support group.

Yes!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Hey all!

Oh, I'm so glad this thread is reviving. I wish I had more time to respond and jump in, I SOOOO want to and yet, DS and DH are waiting for me and I must go. Indeed, the very thing I'm trying to nurture I want to hold off so I can talk more about what it means to nurture our kids, our families.









Mommyofshmoo - I just wanted to say very quickly that we are having so many of the same thoughts and frustrations right now (the way society punishes, the concept of jail, and a narrow focus on behavior rather than people, our children). DH was mentioning that this was not just a parenting book, but a book to be read by everyone and anyone, rules to live by. ITA to say the least. Hang in there.

Can't wait to come back, read more and jump back in. I'm totally dreading having to return the book to the library tomorrow. Frankly, I'm panicking, but I've already renewed once. I must get my own copy as soon as I can afford a couple of things. Indeed, it's at the top of my "to get" list.









The best,
Em

edited to add:

P.S. Love the support group idea and hey, I'm just across the pond in Port Townsend.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I read this to dp tonight while she was nursing dd2 down. What an inspiring read. I'm going to look for the book...and lurk here for inspiration. Thanks!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Yes, yes it would be great to have a support group!
This book sort of tears me apart.
The thing is my DH basically always withdraws, whenever I do something he dislikes. I cannot explain just how much this hurts me. It can go on for hours, days sometimes. Like the other night I took out of the freezer the wrong ice-cream box. There was a box of icecream which was open already and I took a new box instead of finishing up the old one. Basically, he said "You are always so careless" and that was it for the night, except for the minimum communication necessary to get the kids to bed.
It was not until I read this book that I realized that he does that to the kids too, and that dd1 (4 years old) has now started to do this to us, as well. When I read the part on the effect of love withdrawal on kids, like it is worse than spanking, I wanted to cry for hours on end.
I think DH is a nice father, when the kids behave nicely, but he doesn't have any skills to handle behaviour he does not like, he does not want to read any books on parenting, and he says that I am just making him more and more insecure by telling him what he should not do all day.
Sorry for all this rambling


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Gaialice, I'm sorry to read that. In some ways I think almost all of us withdraw a bit to either defend ourselves or actually protect the other person from experiencing our anger and wrath. Maybe not talking to you and withdrawing emotionally your dh controls his feelings. I read a book how men have to retreat to regulate their emotions and feel better.

I'm also reading Unconditional Parenting. It really makes me think a lot and rethink a lot of my values, ideas and ways of dealing with my child (and other people!). It's a thought-provoking, very interesting book that transcends mere parenting advice.

It does, however, reinforce my decision to go with non-punitive parenting and Positive Discipline. Some people have said that they don't think Alfie Kohn is very AP, but so far (I'm in the last half of the book) I don't see why AP wouldn't be compatible with his philosophies.

Any ideas? I've only read this book so far by Alfie Kohn. My dh was tempted to buy "Get Out of My Life but First Can You Drive Me to the Mall?" for his mom who's raising a teenage daughter (my sister-in-law).


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
I read a book how men have to retreat to regulate their emotions and feel better.

Could you tell me more about this book?
Thanks


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Ooooh! I'm really excited to have found this thread and to read this book! It's on hold for me at the bookstore, just have to wait for the next paycheck to hit the bank.

Meanwhile, can you give me a hint about how an "unconditional parent" might handle daily, preditable battles we have over things like wearing pants, taking baths, and sleep? I realize that Kohn is an antibehaviorist, and from the sounds of the comments here he advocates focusing on the person and not the behavior. But sometimes, as parents, we frankly are kind of dependent upon certain behavior, no?

For example, our youngest has pretty serious skin issues and it is my sincere belief that her itchy skin benefits a great deal from daily soaks in the tub -- something we struggle over every night. I'm so weary of these kinds of daily struggles. Funny thing is, once she's in the tub, she's pretty content to stay and play a while. I'd like to reframe the whole thing to help us get out of "battle" mode. Of course, this is results- oriented thinking, isn't it?

Am I totally lost, here? Does Kohn imply that parents should refrain from wanting to control ANYTHING about the lives of their children?! Sheesh. That would be a mighty tall order. Anyone who has already read the book have any insights to share? I'm really intrigued.


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

I have Punished by Rewards ordered and now you all have talked me into ordering UP'ing too! :LOL


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ohmtaretu*
Ooooh! I'm really excited to have found this thread and to read this book! It's on hold for me at the bookstore, just have to wait for the next paycheck to hit the bank.

Meanwhile, can you give me a hint about how an "unconditional parent" might handle daily, preditable battles we have over things like wearing pants, taking baths, and sleep? I realize that Kohn is an antibehaviorist, and from the sounds of the comments here he advocates focusing on the person and not the behavior. But sometimes, as parents, we frankly are kind of dependent upon certain behavior, no?

For example, our youngest has pretty serious skin issues and it is my sincere belief that her itchy skin benefits a great deal from daily soaks in the tub -- something we struggle over every night. I'm so weary of these kinds of daily struggles. Funny thing is, once she's in the tub, she's pretty content to stay and play a while. I'd like to reframe the whole thing to help us get out of "battle" mode. Of course, this is results- oriented thinking, isn't it?

Am I totally lost, here? Does Kohn imply that parents should refrain from wanting to control ANYTHING about the lives of their children?! Sheesh. That would be a mighty tall order. Anyone who has already read the book have any insights to share? I'm really intrigued.

Mr. Kohn isn't against all control- just unnecessary control. He also is all about working with kids to come up with solutions. I'm not sure if your dd is old enough to help generate ideas about the bath or verbalize what her issues are with getting into the bath.

If she's too young to talk about things, you might just try to diffuse the situation by taking the emphasis off compliance. You could try letting her not bathe, or try running the bath and going into the bathroom yourself to hang out - kids tend to go where the momma is, or you could get in the bath first to entice her. You could ask if she wants to use bubble bath or food coloring for the bath (Not really U.P. based but these are things we've done.)

I think the idea is to get away from using coercion and towards finding common ground and a way to solve problems together.


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Mr. Kohn isn't against all control- just unnecessary control. He also is all about working with kids to come up with solutions.









I am loving this Mr. Kohn already! :LOL


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## 2BMamaof3 (Oct 13, 2003)

His book Punished by Rewards was one of the major influences on me taking my 10 year old out of public school and unschooling him.









I'm really glad to read he's got a book saying

_"-let go of the belief that I can control my children's behavior.
-let go of the belief that I should control my children's behavior
-let go of the belief that if I'm a good mother, if I'm using the right techniques, my kids will not misbehave
-let go of the need or desire to have other people think I'm a good mother, to let go of caring what other adults think
-let go of the word "misbehavior", of the idea that kids do things we don't like out of choice and to test limits "_

this is my major life problem (co-dependents are controllers!)

I want to control people places and things...especially my kids.

Taking _another_ deep breath. You have NO IDEA how glad I am this thread exists and that there are other parents discussing these things here.























Abby


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I got it, am reading it and liking it. He has a repetitive quality to his writing/point-making that is sometimes comforting, sometimes annoying (in Punished by Rewards, too).

But he's kinda preaching to the choir with me (not that I am perfect, but these are my parenting goals, for the most part, already). Where does he tell you in the book how to get your DH to read it?

L.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

I have been reading a library of books on parenting lately, and I have to say that UP is incredible. It is opening my eyes and reframing my thinking of how to be with my kids. Everytime I sit down to read and my husband walks by, I say "You gotta read this book." Hopefully I'll convince him to do that.

I don't know what about his philosophy would be considered not AP . . . the whole point of the book is to create/maintain a strong (and respectful) relationship with your child. If that's not AP, I don't know what is!

Another wonderful book along this same thinking is "The Natural Child" by Jan Hunt. It's an easy read, a collection of articles she's written, and it's the same premise of treating your child with respect--treating him/her the way you'd want to be treated. I read that first, then started UP. Kohn's book is more explicit, with more info about why conditional parenting is not best for our kids and what unconditional parenting looks like.

I'm thrilled to find this thread . . . and the whole forum. This is my first foray into the forum . . . what a great find: a community of people with similar views of childrearing. We need this, especially when we go against the "norms" of society. Wouldn't it be amazing if UP thinking became the norm someday? I can dream of that for my kids . . .


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*
Where does he tell you in the book how to get your DH to read it?

I just do what I always do when I want DH to read something. I put it in the bathroom.









DH is usually pretty good about reading a least excerpts from parenting books I recommend. DS is at a very colorful age right now so I think he was looking for some comfort too, so the book was well timed in that regard. He read a few lines and was sucked in, as was I. Difficult not to be. Needless to say, our copy spent a lot of time in the bathroom, but hey, however it gets done... indeed, pick my battles.









The best,
Em


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Just poking my head out of the book for a minute to say I'm now reading it.
Wow.

Wow.

So much to consider.

I am very much interested in keeping up the dialogue. I also would like to either keep this thread alive or start a new UP support thread. This book has already helped me be aware of many deep-seeded things I'd like to change about my parenting... and I'm only on chapter 2.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ohmtaretu*
This book has already helped me be aware of many deep-seeded things I'd like to change about my parenting... and I'm only on chapter 2.

Yea, I know what you mean. And I find myself thinking about what I do, what i might see others do and then get all tripped up thinking how my parents did it. I find it very provocative, but I am finding it difficult to read much at a stretch. Course, I don't often get the chance, but maybe it will stick with me better if I don't zoom through it.

Definitely lots to discuss once we are all done with it!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Still following. And this book is the next one I will purchase. Hey-does anyone know where I can get it cheap? I think at my B&N it was around $23. And we're on a budget, so this wouldn't fly right now...This is definitely one I'd like to own, not borrow from the library.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

check out half.com and i think both amazon and b&n sell used books (search for the book and if anyone is selling it used you will see a link).

nak


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thanks, moonshine. Pre-budgetary restrictions, I used to order from Amazon fairly frequently. I'll check them out for this one.


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

HE IS ON THE DIANE REHM SHOW TODAY (NPR)

In washington dc it is on NOW and will repeat tonight.

TUNE IT, he ROCKS!


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Now that I can type more ... I ordered mine used from amazon for about $8, so maybe $11 with shipping. Took about a week to get here. I always checked used first. You can usually find a deal and it supports reusing things, which I try hard to do.


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

At the end of the show he said he has a web forum to exchange GD idas and get input from the author.

http://www.unconditionalparenting.com


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

I picked up the book yesterday, and I have to say that it has already made a HUGE difference in my relationship with Toren. Absolutely nothing about how I _feel_ about her has changed -- the "love" feelings I have toward her haven't changed a bit -- but I'm certain her _perception_ of how I feel about her has changed dramatically.

That she can sense the changes and is appreciative is totally PALPABLE. Remember my earlier post with the question about the bath battle? Well, guess what has magically disappeared! The bath battle! Two nights in a row, no battles.

This book is thus far hands-down the one that has made the biggest impact on my parenting.

Maybe folks who like this approach should consider using the acronym UP instead of AP. UP implies so much more. No time-outs, no "good job", and an attempt to curb all unnecessary controlling behaviors. I definitely wanna hang with parents like that!

Thanks for that info/link, boatbaby. I'm going to check it out now.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

WOW, finally a group that understands me :LOL I did not read "Unconditional parenting" but stuff you are saying were written at this website

http://www.awareparenting.com/twenty.htm The twenty alternatives to punishment. SHE does NOT punish bad behavior AND does NOT like praising for good behavior.

I have been looking for someone like Dr. Althea Solter. I have started reading "REAL" child psychology books like "Winnicott on the Child" to better understand what child goes through from separation (the reason for the terrible twos stage), all under the guidance of my psychotherapist husband and his recommendation. ALL that psycho concepts are mind blowing that I need a translator :LOL

My husband always says there is a reason why a child "misbehaves" and we must always try to figure out why instead of punishing, which we do all the time.

I need to read this book


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

This may be a post for the UP section yet to be formed, but....

One of my big problems is that I feel like people expect me to regulate dd's moods as part of discipline. Like, in addition to not damaging things and not throwing tantrums, she's supposed to be outgoing, accommodating and loving all the time.

I find it exhausting. I simply cannot make my kid want to kiss daddy or talk on the phone with grandma. How did displays of affection and a happy mood become "behavior" or "discipline" issues?

My dd hates feeling pressured to do things and is kinda introverted sometimes. When pushed to be affectionate against her will she often gets angry/acts out/whatever. Then it becomes an "issue" that I'm supposed to "deal" with.

Any ideas/thoughts. Telling people to back the (%*$! off doens't feel like a good option. (That's pretty much what dd does anyway







)


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## ETW (Feb 18, 2005)

I generally shy away from parenting advice books (I really haven't read any) but this book is so overwhelmingly recommended here that I'm tempted. However, I have read the author's article "Five Reasons to Stop Saying 'Good Job'" and it didn't ring true to me at all. I really disagree with most of the major points. Does this mean that this book is not for me or is there a lot to get out of the book even if one dismisses the anti-praise stuff?


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ETW*
Does this mean that this book is not for me or is there a lot to get out of the book even if one dismisses the anti-praise stuff?

When I first heard about Kohn many months ago, I wasn't convinced about the anti-praise stuff, either. Reading the book, though, I realize that my hesitation was because I had a different interpretation of praise. I've never used "Good job!" because it's a meaningless phrase to my son (he has autism). Instead, I've always described what I see -- "You poured the juice!" -- or asked questions -- "How did you make your turtle puppet?" Kohn suggests these techniques as a replacement for abstract, judgmental phrases that don't let a child form his/her own opinions and grow. He also offers other alternatives. I think it's important to realize he isn't against a child developing self-esteem -- he just believes that self-esteem shouldn't be dependent on the judgment of an outside force, which is how much praise functions.

Hope that helps a little.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I'd definately say to read before passing judgement on the anti-praise stuff. The main push is to avoid praise that's meant to manipulate.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

YEAH!!! I was yelling at my slow computer to hurry so I could get all this excitement out!! He was on NPR this morning and what he said just made so much sense. We had a "difficult" experince last night and Mark just was so wrong on so many levels. So this afternoon I called and told him about the book and he is going out to get it. We both need to get away from how we were raised and how we want Kailey to "behave" well.

We want a free thinking child, yet want her to blindly follow instructions- UGH! Anyway he was wonderful on so many points!!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Hooray- My dh actually agreed to read it!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe not till June- when he'll be on the water for work and willing to read anything, but that's OK too.

I just feel so alone with these ideas sometimes. (Well, not alone- I have you guys, but alone in my extended family.)


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

mommyogshmoo, I am so right there with you. DH wants to break the cycle but just can't seem to pick up a parenting book. His mom says real parents don't need books they should know how to treat their kids (yeah this from the woman who tried to hit my DH in the head with a baseball bat and chased him with a butcher knife)!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I can't beleive how many people are against parenting books. It's weird.

Like, everybody reads books about having babies- they even take classes, and frankly I think that gestating and having the baby is the easy part.

Heck, people even read books about making babies! And if you need a guide to doing that.....









(Not trying to offend people who had a hard time getting pregnant. Just stating that raising kids is hard work and there's no shame in reading up on it.)

I think that Mr. Kohn hits the nail on the head when he says that people don't want to have to think about how they were raised because it would be too painful. I think most parents just want to go along and not think about it too much, because to revisit how it felt to be a kid would be just too painful.

I've known for ages that I don't get along with my 'rents. But it was not till I read this book that I truly understood why, or how much I lost, or how much of myself I lost. It made me very sad. But y'know, my kid is worth a little self-reflection and self-critique.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

my copy of this book arrived in the mail last night. i got a chance to start it today. i LOVE it so far (chapter one). i want dh to read it, too, but i've already gotten him to agree to raising your spirited child , so i guess i'll bring this with us on longer drives to see family and friends and read it aloud to him (talk about a captive audience, nowhere to run







)

i can't wait to be able to discuss this and put it to use.


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## ETW (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I can't beleive how many people are against parenting books. It's weird.

I'm taking it a little off topic here, but I am not a fan of parenting books (for me) -- as I said earlier I haven't read one yet. The reason is that my instincts so far have been good and the only time I find myself getting into trouble is when I have been reading too much parenting stuff (on these and other boards for example) and find myself second-guessing and overthinking my parenting instead of just enjoying my son. Maybe as he gets older I will find that I need more "help" but so far it's been very intuitive -- maybe that means I owe my parents a big "thank you!"


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Originally Posted by sagira
I read a book how men have to retreat to regulate their emotions and feel better.

Could you tell me more about this book?
Thanks

Gaialice:

I didn't see your post until today.. was busy. I do not remember exactly, but I do remember reading a lot of fantastic stuff about men and boys in "Real Boys" by William Pollack. It's great if you have sons or work or live with boys (and as a matter of fact, men -- hmmm.. don't we all?).

I love parenting books. I can see where ETW comes from and sometimes I take a breather and try to go it alone for awhile, but when I find myself going on auto-pilot it's not pretty. I have to restrain myself from saying out loud what I'm thinking (punitive ideas, criticism, impatience, you name it). You could say that is most of us our "legacy".

I do agree that UP was a bit uncomfortable to read at first because it left me naked and exposed when it came to how I was raised (by my mom in particular) and it still hurts -- a lot. I haven't finished the book and I think partly because of that.

I agree that my son deserves me reexamining myself and my childhood and I'm going to go back to reading it today or tomorrow. I just needed a break -- the book made me really reflect inwards and made me realize I, too, depend a lot on external forces. In a way I'm "reparenting" myself often because of this and other groundbreaking books.

As a plus, I realize I always knew (and know) my father loved me unconditionally.. and I listened to him. He never lost his temper, was always calm and talked to me. Yes, he overindulged me I believe, but boy, he really did love me unconditionally.. that made me grin from ear to ear and made me realize what I lacked from my mom.

Ooph! Long post! Sorry!

In short, read Unconditional Parenting! It's a great book!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ETW*
I'm taking it a little off topic here, but I am not a fan of parenting books (for me) -- as I said earlier I haven't read one yet. The reason is that my instincts so far have been good and the only time I find myself getting into trouble is when I have been reading too much parenting stuff (on these and other boards for example) and find myself second-guessing and overthinking my parenting instead of just enjoying my son. Maybe as he gets older I will find that I need more "help" but so far it's been very intuitive -- maybe that means I owe my parents a big "thank you!"

I get what you mean here. When DS was a babe, I felt the same way. Beyond The Baby Book which offered lovely developmentally appropriate behavior and lots of good advice for allowing baby to be baby so to speak, I didn't feel I needed "parenting advice" per se.

That said, when DS got a little older, I started to feel out of my element with regard to "discipline." I knew somewhat what I didn't want, and had a philosophy of sorts, but had a difficult time interpreting that into every day life. I was happy to read a couple of good parenting books at that time that helped. OTOH, had 'Unconditional Parenting' been available then, I would have ate it up and certainly grown from what it has to say. I've said before that my ONLY regret about this book is that it wasn't published three years ago.









If you do indeed decide to read it, I can pretty much assure you that you won't be disappointed.

Em


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ETW*
I'm taking it a little off topic here, but I am not a fan of parenting books (for me) -- as I said earlier I haven't read one yet. The reason is that my instincts so far have been good and the only time I find myself getting into trouble is when I have been reading too much parenting stuff (on these and other boards for example) and find myself second-guessing and overthinking my parenting instead of just enjoying my son. Maybe as he gets older I will find that I need more "help" but so far it's been very intuitive -- maybe that means I owe my parents a big "thank you!"

I hardly read any parenting books till dd was around one either. I got the Baby Book when she was around 3 months, mainly for the developmental milestones and emergency health advice.

Now I've just read a few ones that have come hightly recommended.

I'm not saying book learning is the totaly and absolute way to parent. But I do think every once in a while someone writes something really worth reading, and this book certainly falls into that category.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
One of my big problems is that I feel like people expect me to regulate dd's moods as part of discipline. Like, in addition to not damaging things and not throwing tantrums, she's supposed to be outgoing, accommodating and loving all the time.

I find it exhausting. I simply cannot make my kid want to kiss daddy or talk on the phone with grandma. How did displays of affection and a happy mood become "behavior" or "discipline" issues?

Ugh, I hear you on this one (and so many others







). As an adult, I'm allowed to have a bad day. Heck, all I have to do is say the letters, "PMS" and no one bats an eye, "totally understandable." Indeed, as an adult, I can get past my feelings when I need to, but that's because I'm adult. I can be nice to the VERY SLOW and distracted store clerk, but I have the emotional resources to do so. Our kids often times do not, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to have a bad day. Their reality is a tough one, really. Learning new things all the time, and not always the easy way. Being a little kid in a big person world. Being told NO umpteen times a days. Thwarted at this turn and that. Being expected to know how to act at all times, and the horror of being prompted by the library lady to say PLEASE and THANK YOU even after it was SHE who ignored his first (and very polite) request because SHE was distracted by something else. Ugh. Sheesh, if I lived where my son does (and this is with parents who are both wholeheartedly on board with what Kohn has to say), I'd be cranky once and awhile too.

The only thing I can tell you here is that since reading UP, I have just relaxed a ton on this one. I'm NOT responsible for my son's moods (ok, unless like this morning *I* was the one who started out cranky and it became an infectious disease--we worked through it) and his being in a bad one does not constitute "bad behavior." He's entitled as are we all. If it seems like he's going to have a hard time with this outting or that, I might cancel it first off, but if not, I just take into account that he'll need extra help getting through it. Generally, I focus on him, connect as much as I can which helps him deal better with the situation. If it's family, I might say: "Hey guys, you remember what it's like being a kid, sheesh. It's not always easy being the smallest one on the room. We all give each other a break when someone's grumpy, DS is no less deserving."

The best,
Em


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

Quote:

One of my big problems is that I feel like people expect me to regulate dd's moods as part of discipline. Like, in addition to not damaging things and not throwing tantrums, she's supposed to be outgoing, accommodating and loving all the time.

I find it exhausting. I simply cannot make my kid want to kiss daddy or talk on the phone with grandma. How did displays of affection and a happy mood become "behavior" or "discipline" issues?








I hate that people expect this!! I really frustrates me and also causes me to not even want to be around people who give you the 'look' about your child...you know the one...that condescending all knowing, 'if that were MY kid' look.









Anyway I just ordered my copy of UP!! I can't wait to get it now after reading this thread. While I didn't pay $23, I did pay $15 for it, there is someone on ebay selling brand new copies for $15 at the buy it now price...in case anyone wanted the info.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I ordered a copy of Unconditional parenting and a copy of how to talk so kids will listen (etc) last night from Buy.com







Free shipping and the book prices were cheaper than amazon.com ... AND if you are a member of ebates you get 2or 3% back I think.....

in case anyone was looking for a good deal


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thanks for the book prices and resources, ladies


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## brewgirl (Sep 22, 2004)

I really enjoyed this book as well. For me, it provided a way to reflect on how I was raised and helped me to think about things differently. I have been struggling with how to raise a moral person outside of the framework I had growing up (religious authoritarian father). UP helped me to think about the kind of person I am hoping our daughter will become and evaluate how our discipline strategy meshes. Lots of good food for thought.

I was just over at amazon pricing it out (really want to send sil a copy - hope the paperback is out soon!) and was sad to see that it only has 3 stars and three reviews. I'm going to write up a review tomorrow. Hopefully many of you on this thread will do so too! It would be great if all of these insights were posted over there for would-be shoppers to reflect on.


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

I just started reading this book, but it already has had a big impact on me. I feel so sad for the way DH and I were raised. I know all the praise and love withholding had a huge effect on my DH. He won't do something around other people if he might do badly or "fail". He doesn't want to play cards with me and my friends because he might get embarassed, though none of us would ever want to make him feel that way. It doesn't seem like a great way to live your life. I still feel like I can do nothing to make my father proud of me. If only our parents had been able to read this book.

How the heck do I stop my in-laws from saying "good job!" every 5 seconds to my DS? He's not quite 20 months old, yet I know he understands it. I feel like I've had to do a lot of work to get him to eat meals of solid food (he's still nursing, and until recently was getting most of his nutrition from my milk)...and I can just see my MIL sabotaging it all by saying "good job!" after every single bite he takes. Ugh! I want him to eat because he's hungry, not because he thinks it makes him good in his gramma's eyes. I know she doesn't mean it that way, but I really need a sensitive way to tell her without her getting offended.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
This may be a post for the UP section yet to be formed, but....

One of my big problems is that I feel like people expect me to regulate dd's moods as part of discipline. Like, in addition to not damaging things and not throwing tantrums, she's supposed to be outgoing, accommodating and loving all the time.

I find it exhausting. I simply cannot make my kid want to kiss daddy or talk on the phone with grandma. How did displays of affection and a happy mood become "behavior" or "discipline" issues?

My dd hates feeling pressured to do things and is kinda introverted sometimes. When pushed to be affectionate against her will she often gets angry/acts out/whatever. Then it becomes an "issue" that I'm supposed to "deal" with.

Any ideas/thoughts. Telling people to back the (%*$! off doens't feel like a good option. (That's pretty much what dd does anyway







)

I think a good way to handle situations like this, like if she doesn't want to talk to grandma on the phone, is just say "I guess she doesn't feel like talking today." Pass if off to grandma or your husband as not being a big deal. Don't apologize for her not wanting to kiss or hug or talk (goodness, there's nothing to apologize for!). Just matter-of-factly shrug it off. If anyone gets upset, just explain that you're sure she'll eventually be ecstatic to hug, kiss, or talk (or whatever affectionate behavior is desired), just not today (again, like it's no big deal, not apologizing). Let them know that you respect your daughter's comfort level or interest or right to determine who enters her personal space, and that when she's ready to do these things on her own then she'll do them happily and wholeheartedly . . . and wouldn't we rather have a willing kiss, hug, or chat on the phone than an unwilling one? And from now on I wouldn't try to force her to be affectionate just to avoid hurting someone else's feelings, the end results aren't worth it. The adults will get over it quicker and easier than the child.

If she sees this kind of behavior--the shows of affection--she'll do them on her own when she's ready. If she's not seeing the affection modeled, then she's unlikely to do it. I have no idea how outwardly affectionate your family is . . . but if daddy wants kisses from his little girl, then he needs to be modeling that behavior by kissing her mommy and her as often as he can. And she needs to see mommy kiss daddy often too. If your family is already doing this, then your daughter will jump onboard too when she's ready.

Be well,
jen


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I have this book on my wishlist. But I've been wondering if I will get much out of it. If I'm already comfortable with dd's strong emotions (like I'm perfectly okay snuggling with dd and being nice to her after she has been screaming for an hour), if I don't use rewards and punishments and meaningless praise, can I still get something out of it?

Dar? Are you here? Have you read this? Is it helpful?

Edited to add:
Don't mean to sound perfect; I am most definitely not! The areas I have struggled with are aggressiveness towards me, saying "be careful" too much, and probably not letting her be independent enough -- though I am really trying hard with that one (like not just reaching out and fastening a button for her when she's been trying for 3 minutes already, not believing that she could learn to tie her shoes now, etc.).


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm currently number two on the waiting list at the library... they didn't actually have the book yet, though, last time I checked -it was "in the process of being acquired".

I did listen to the NPR program on real audio, though (and I didn't see him as blowing off the woman with the problem in the classroom so much as ackowledging that there wasn't a 20 second solution sometimes, which is true).

I want to read it mostly because it seems that it will validate what I do already, and perhaps give me some research to back it up, and I'm sure I'll learn something new. I will let you know what I think, though...

Dar


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

and I'm sure I'll learn something new
I was thinking so too, but the subtitle throws me for a loop. Anyway, I can't get it till I move from here in August, so you've got plenty of time to write your book review!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

This book and Playful Parenting are the books that have most supported me in my parenting. The rewards thing in neither here nor there to me. If my kid asked me to institute some sort of rewards system, I'd cooperate with her on it, but it's hard to imagine how it would be more useful or fun than the way we interact now.

I'm not able to say why this book touched me as much as it did. But it has encouraged me to show my warmth more in my interactions with the kids. My older dd (4.5) has been very hurt by an awful neighborhood situation, and in the past few days I've really been able to communicate just how much I care about her and how she feels. This in spite of the fact that her hurt, sadness and anger are expressed once a day by slapping me in my face (if she can reach it) and pinching my left arm so hard it bruised. I've been able to stay in it with her, while taking care of myself. It's been a gift watching her "get it" that my love is constant.

Laurence Cohen talks about when your kid is a "leaky cup" when all the love and attention leaks out. I feel like somehow reading Unconditional Parenting helped me interact in a way that she could plug the holes in her cup.

I'm still really sitting with it, and I would recommend it to anyone who is looking for thoughts to improve their relationship with their kids rather than getting them to "exhibit" any particular "behavior."


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I want to read it mostly because it seems that it will validate what I do already...

Dar, from all the posts I've read of yours, I can say very sincerely that yes, this book will do that for you. From the moment I entered MDC, I've always appreciated what you've had to say and frankly, I've even stalked you from time to time... "what would Dar have to say about that?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
This book and Playful Parenting are the books that have most supported me in my parenting.

Indeed, these two books make up my "parenting reference library." Oh, and with regard to the above, whatever Dar might have to say.









The best,
Em


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## iridium (Oct 17, 2004)

I have started a yahoo mailing list for those wanting to work with the principles from the UP. (and haven't found the UP message boards helpful)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnconditionalParenting/

Samantha


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iridium*
I have started a yahoo mailing list for those wanting to work with the principles from the UP. (and haven't found the UP message boards helpful)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnconditionalParenting/

Samantha


Just what I need, to be on one more mailing group.


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## water (May 15, 2003)

Hey I just bought the book the other day on the recommendation of this thread! And it is so awesome I can't even express it properly.

I am on chapter three now, and after reading JUST the intro and chapt 1 I feel like it changed my whole relationship with my ds . Crazy. It's the parenting book I've been waiting for...so I'm into the discussion!

I really like the point that you deal with the issue in the moment and then move on, not keep on bringing it up/punishing for the rest of the day or whatever. We already do this, but my evil upbringing puts the doubts in the back of my head, "you are just going to forget about it? he should be punished!" and so it's really great to hear someone validate what we are doing in that respect.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Has the discussion moved to the Yahoo group? I also am not wanting to join another group, but I want to stay with the discussion!

Ive got the book from the library, and it is big stuff. Working through it now.


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## water (May 15, 2003)

not sure, i just applied to join so i'll let you know (sorry nak)


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## iridium (Oct 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
Has the discussion moved to the Yahoo group? I also am not wanting to join another group, but I want to stay with the discussion!

Ive got the book from the library, and it is big stuff. Working through it now.

It doesn't have to. You can join the list or not. Kohn created a message board for the book too.

UP boards are here: http://unconditionalparentingboard.com/eve/

I created the email list because I really don't like message boards much and the UP board above got overrun with the TCSers. The UP board has been modified recently so It might be more supportive now.

There are 24 members on the UP list I created and some discussion so far. I think it will be valuable to have a list for focusing UP and other things that help too.

Samantha
Unconditional Parenting list owner on yahoo.


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

Thank you for starting the group! I just sent in my request to join.

What's a "TCSer"?

Since I'm not part of that group, there were just a few things I had to share and here's the best place for it for now. =)

For the mommy with the older toddler picking on her baby...
I agree that minute control is not needed and indeed bad; but when it comes to the safety of a baby, I think a mom has the right to use her control a bit more. How about "The baby doesn't like that (focusing on the effects of the action); you look angry (empethy), why don't we go read a book together while I nurse the baby? (giving loving attention)" Hopefully in a more cohesive statement. =)

I was just angry with my little guy and yelled. He was so sad, and as I picked him up to take him to bed to nurse for his nap (he was tired, which is why he was being annoying), he puckered up so I could get a kiss from him. I thought, "He knows I can't be mad at him when he kisses me... he's manipulating me!" Then I thought, "He's using positive reinforcements - but when someone smaller than you does it, it's manipulation." It made me think of the people who claim that a baby who smiles for you to pick him up is "wrapping you around his little finger" and then again at the concept that toddlers really can manipluate, especially each other. "If you don't give me that toy, I won't invite you to my birthday party!" On the radio, I heard of a study from BYU that said girls as young as *3* manipluate to get their way. Well, if parents rely on "positive reinforcements," what has the child learned?

My thoughts today aren't as well worded as I would have liked, but hopefully you get the point. =)


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Wow, that statement about how you feel about your kids not mattering as much as how they experience you really zinged me. I mean, I know that, but it all just gets away from me sometimes, and I'm not sure what to do when I'm SO frustrated with the situations we get ourselves in. I say "situation" because I know that my choices contribute to the circumstances that frustrate me -- it's not just ds's toddlerhood that's doing it.

Anyway, just trying to say that I've been thinking about this exact thing recently and trying to do better at it, so this thread comes at a really good time. I think I will buy the book. Thanks ladies.


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

I just wanted to say thank you for the thread on this book. I took a look at it yesterday and became so engrossed in it at the bookstore that I stayed for over two hours look at AK's other books.


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## iridium (Oct 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelissaEvans*
What's a "TCSer"?


TCS is short for Taking Children Seriously:
www.takingchildrenseriously.com

Samantha


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I know this is totally off topic, but what is wrong with TCS? I know very little about it and I didn't get much from scanning the site.

How is it different from UP?

I'm supposing the practice of it is what differs, but is it associated with total lack of parental invovement? I don't get it.

Thanks


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

The difference is that one of the core tenets of TCS is to not coerce your child - i.e., make him do anything that he actively doesn't want to do.

Some people assume that a person who isn't coercing her child - forcing him to do things - is not "involved". We see "good parenting" as involving coercion - children as autonomous beings is not a concept most people are comfortable with. TCS children often act in unconventional ways, and TCS parents don't coerce their children to make them act more "conventional" (although they would share theories about how the child's actions may affect others).

I don't think UP goes as far, but it's in the same ballpark...

Dar


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Wow, I am reading this book right now, and it is incredible.









So many times in day to day life, I have seen parent/child interactions in the street or stores or restaurants and have been upset by them, but unable to articulate why I felt unease.

This book has put into words exactly why they have bothered me so much, and just what is fundamentally wrong with the dynamic expressed in those interactions.


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

I just got done reading this entire thread and i'm literally gathering the kids to run the bookstore. I need something right now and I really hope this is it. I have all these parenting goals, long term, in my heart but my day to day actions are so far off from what i'm trying to achieve/teach/impart. Its like i planned a trip to miami and somehow ended up in the north pole







And even though i know my loving feelings towards my kids, i dont think i portray them very well simply out of my day to day power stuggles with them. I spend way too much time trying to figure out how to "make" them do something they dont want to, when i would rather be focusing on teaching how to take responsibility for our actions (if you threw all of your clothes out of your drawer to find your favorite shirt, then you have to put them back, kind of thing). I also hope dh will read it even though he's never read a book i've suggested.
I see that a lot of you reading have younger children....do you think this will be helpful for me since i have school age children? Even if i've strayed way off the course of my parenting ideals and my household is in need of emergency action?


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaiamom*
I see that a lot of you reading have younger children....do you think this will be helpful for me since i have school age children?

Well, if you've already been to the store and have started reading then you know that YES, this is a book for all parents regardless of their kids ages. In fact, DH thinks its a book for all PEOPLE to read, regardless if they're a parent or not.









Happy reading!

Em


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm still on the waiting list for out library's copy. I kinda burned through all my spending money for the next month or so, lol...

Anyways, just to get an "Alfie Fix" I borrowed "The Schools Our Children Deserve". WOW.

If any of you are thinking about schooling, you really really need to read this.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
In fact, DH thinks its a book for all PEOPLE to read, regardless if they're a parent or not.









Em

So true!!!


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Just another person chiming in to say that UP is an amazing book! I'm somewhere in the middle chapters -- 5 or 6 -- and it's great.

I think you can now get it (and some other Kohn books) on overstock.com.


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

Ok had to splurge and spend our vacation money to buy the book, but like i said earlier, I needed something quick!

And OMG! I just got it yesterday and i'm on chapter 8, and already my attitude has changed DRAMATICALLY!! Hence, so have my children. Im amazed at the wake up call this book has brought about. My kids have gone from angels, to testing the limits of my love, to angels, and so on, back and forth for the last 24 hrs. and i havent raised my voice one single time!!! This is a major feat in my house! I feel so relaxed, so "let off the hook" of trying to think of ways to make them obey and analyze what theyre up to. This book makes so much sense and goes right along with my heart-felt philosophy, but i felt like i had no proof of what i felt or anyway to implement it in my home.
It was hard to analyze my own childhood situation and figure out why i treated my kids the way i do, but it makes so much sense...why i am the way i am and how i can avoid passing those bahaviors down to my children.
I also am not a fan of "how to raise your kids" type books because i've found it easier to depend on my own instincts, but when you are frustrated and pissed off and dont know what to do, youre not depending on instinct as much as you are reaction. This is the rabbit hole i've fallen into. React...doesnt get better....react firmer.....gets worse....react like a mad woman....gets REALLY bad. Punishment doesnt work here and i've never been able to figure out why, and sadly have gone against my better judgement to enforce it.

This book has changed me and the dynamics in my family. I recommend it to all, even those who dont like parenting books, even those who are doing a wonderful job as it is.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaiamom*
This book makes so much sense and goes right along with my heart-felt philosophy,

I'm reading this book now and have the same feelings about it. When I first read Kohn, it was Punished by Rewards and my reaction was, "OMG! Someone else thinks like this too?" I wasn't doing sticker charts or anything at the time, and while I had a sort of gut feeling about the issues, I hadn't thought it all the way through. Kohn's book did that--by reading his detailed thoughts, it made me focus and organize my own thoughts on the subject. Same thing is happening with this book. I don't need a "how to" book at this point, but I put his books in the "makes you think" catagory, which can never be a bad thing.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I got the book! Of course, I'me working too much this week and so I haven't finsihed it yet, but it is so cool - and there are some things Alfie brings up that I'm definitely never thought about, like how traditional parenting teaches the child to focus on *himself* (as in, if I do X, what will the consequences be to me?) rather than others (If I do X, what will the results be for other people). Nice stuff. I'll have more when I'm done...

Dar


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I'm loving the book too and I don't even have children. I didn't know there was such a huge and active thread on it. I picked up the book after reading what Alfie Kohn had to say on SuperNanny (lol). I'll have to go back and read what you all have to say because I can't get enough of Alfie's "philosophy".

The best part about the book is what it's teaching me about myself. Because I don't have children, I've had to apply some of the things he's talking about to the ways that I look at myself. I realized that I had come to see my self-worth as directly related to my successes and failures instead of loving myself unconditionally and I want to change that.

I want to read Punished With Rewards next. I hope it is equally enlightening.

Kylix


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee*
In fact, DH thinks its a book for all PEOPLE to read, regardless if they're a parent or not.









Happy reading!

Em


Exactly what I think too Embee!

Kylix


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I got the book! Of course, I'me working too much this week and so I haven't finsihed it yet, but it is so cool - and there are some things Alfie brings up that I'm definitely never thought about, like how traditional parenting teaches the child to focus on *himself* (as in, if I do X, what will the consequences be to me?) rather than others (If I do X, what will the results be for other people). Nice stuff. I'll have more when I'm done...

Dar

I loved this part in the book! The thing parents do to hopefully make their child think about how their actions affect others can actually make the child more _self-centered_ ! When you punish a child for hurting their brother, they aren't sitting on their bed thinking "gee, I feel bad about hurting my brother". The child is thinking about how this punishment is affecting _him._


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Just got mine in the mail today. Planning to read it to DH. It has been hard not to sneak a peek since all of you are so enthusiastic.

What did he say about Supernanny?


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Check out this thread: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=289338


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Cannot open link.....


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Here's the link to the article in the Nation in which he wrote about the nanny...
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/supernanny.htm


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

So I'm only on chapter 4, but I have to come here and say to anyone who might be lurking and/or who hasn't started reading the book: it's fabulous.

Really, really good stuff. Most of it is what I already believe as a parent, but it's soooooo nice to know that we're not the only freaky, radical parents out there. The unconditional vs. conditional concept is one I hadn't ever thought of in that way, though.

I'm _so_ digging this book. Dp and I are kind of fighting over it at the moment--both of us want to read it but we only have one copy. I had it on my nightstand and then it disappeared, only to find it in his backpack:LOL


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

mamadawg, too funny! My husband keeps complaining about me removing it from the bathroom where he does all his reading :LOL


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pigpen*
My husband keeps complaining about me removing it from the bathroom where he does all his reading :LOL

Funny... mine keeps complaining that his usual bathroom book has been supplanted ;->


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Here, here... whenever I NEED my DH to read something, I put it in the bathroom. Work everytime. Especially (pigpen







), if I take out all the other books! "I was just cleanin' up sweetie!"


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

:

OK so I think I'll finish that book order. I haven't been feeling good about my parenting lately....... If this book can really help me let go of some of the hang- ups I have mentioned in the first page of this thread,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
"-let go of the belief that I can control my children's behavior.
-let go of the belief that I should control my children's behavior
-let go of the belief that if I'm a good mother, if I'm using the right techniques, my kids will not misbehave
-let go of the need or desire to have other people think I'm a good mother, to let go of caring what other adults think
-let go of the word "misbehavior", of the idea that kids do things we don't like out of choice and to test limits "

This quote from Sledg in her other thread really seems to sum up Kohn's theme to me.









then it will be worth its weight in gold.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Okay, I'm finally ready to jump in here, lol. My turn came up at the library, and I got it two days ago.

The chapter on punishment (Chapter 4) and it's references are worth the money to buy the book, just for the bibliography. If anybody needs "backup" for their non-punitive ways, especially if you have spankers in the family, this is your resource.

And, like others have said, even though I'm already a "no punishment" parent, and don't use rewards, I'm still finding encouragement here and challenges to do even better by my kids. I'm finding I'm stopping to think more about what's coming out of my mouth, even in relatively benign situations.

And I just love his writing style. He writes SO well, and is so easy to follow and nod along with!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I'm still finding encouragement here and challenges to do even better by my kids. I'm finding I'm stopping to think more about what's coming out of my mouth, even in relatively benign situations.

Yes yes yes, Piglet! Me too! As a no-punishment/no rewards parent myself, I did find that my philosophy and what was "coming out of my mouth" at certain times were NOT one and the same. HUGE eye opener to me. The thing is, I KNOW when I'm saying something that it feel utterly WRONG and yet, I feel at such a loss for the right words at times. Particularly if I'm with others, out and about, out of patience, etc. I'm indebted to Alfie Kohn for this little line that pops up in my head a lot these days: "Talk less, ask more." Amen.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Here's a request: I can't get the book before I go on a week long river trip with my son. And I would like something to affirm and or give me direction while we are on this trip. So, what is the one thought/phrase from the book which most struck you?

Thanks in advance


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

bump
Here's a request: I can't get the book before I go on a week long river trip with my son. And I would like something to affirm and or give me direction while we are on this trip. So, what is the one thought/phrase from the book which helped you most?

Thanks in advance


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

OOOOh, so many to choose from, but I don't want to overwhelm you. This little tidbit gets me through the day:

*Focus on the child NOT the behavior. Behavior is language. Knowing our kids well helps us decode the message. Meet the need, the behavior falls away. OTOH, too much focus on the behavior can perpetuate it rather than relieve it and still, the need often times, continues to go unmet... a viscious *and exhausting!* cycle!







*

Em


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

I also recently saw this book in my library and read through it. It IS good. It reminded me of another book I liked and had just read called The Five Love Languages of Children.
I love books that are based on principles, not just those 'do it this way' books. Although, 'his' interpretation of some things I don't completely trust him on of course, but the whole unconditional love principle is wonderful for us all to think about and work on.
It bugs me sometimes when I see others raving about Love and Logic and other books where they are told the exact thing to do in any given situation. It totally takes away our own instincts.
My favorite parenting book is still Hold On To Your Kids, though.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweetybirds2*
My favorite parenting book is still Hold On To Your Kids, though.

















:


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Searching for ideas. DH is gone for a few days and 3 YO DS has been HORRIBLE. I know that he misses daddy and is confused about why he is gone. Since he has no real concept of time, daddy's return, though marked on the calendar, does not mean much.

I am trying so hard to be UP. DH took my book, so I don't have all my strategies at hand. What do I do when DS is deliberately trying to harm or interfere with his 5 month-old sister. He tries to be as loud as possible when I try to get her to sleep. He pesters her while we nurse. I know it is all for attention and wanting my love, but sometimes, he needs to just chill out and wait for a minute or two. I am starting to snap. Thank god, DH comes home tomorrow.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:

I am trying so hard to be UP. DH took my book, so I don't have all my strategies at hand. What do I do when DS is deliberately trying to harm or interfere with his 5 month-old sister. He tries to be as loud as possible when I try to get her to sleep. He pesters her while we nurse. I know it is all for attention and wanting my love, but sometimes, he needs to just chill out and wait for a minute or two.
Do you cuddle ds while BF DD on a sofa or read a book to DS while he sits on the floor next to you? Have you tried stuff like that?

I don't have ideas about the sleeping, yet :LOL


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I have tried that, but it does not always work. Eventually, he will growl or yell or something just as she is going to sleep. As soon as she is asleep, he gets to do something fun with mommy. I have read, play-doh'ed, swung, played in the kiddie pool like crazy since DH left. He just seems hell-bent on being intentionally defiant.

Example: This morning, the first thing he did (the three of us were in bed together) was start fake snoring. Me: Good morning, baby pie. I am happy to see you. How are ya? He smiled, then started the fake snore again. Me: DD is still sleeping, let's not snore right now. What do you want for breakfast? The fake snore got louder. Me: DS, I need you to stop that before you wake your sister. Followed by fake snore at max volume. The rest of the day was just like that.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

Ahhh, I see....Sounds like that ds is stressing because of dh not around.

This may not help directly might help somehow indirectly....Sorry.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Dd1 really wanted to wake dd2 when she was sleeping especially around that age. After much discussion, it turned out that she was afraid her sister would die in her sleep. She was doing the same things we were doing, checking on the sleeping baby. Only she didn't know how to do it "with her eyes only." Dp talked her through watching the baby's chest go up and down with each breath to see dd2 was alive.

It worked!


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## earthmama007 (Dec 29, 2001)

Also just subscribing...


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## KateSt. (Nov 25, 2003)

I've been reading this wonderful book and was thrilled to find this thread. I loved the discussion going on here and it seemed to end rather abruptly. Has it continued on another thread? If so, could someone direct me?
If not, anyone else want to keep talking?


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*
I've been reading this wonderful book and was thrilled to find this thread. I loved the discussion going on here and it seemed to end rather abruptly. Has it continued on another thread? If so, could someone direct me?
If not, anyone else want to keep talking?










I think most of the discussion moved over to the yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnconditionalParenting/


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

I have a hard time with any yahoo group, this one was really hard to follow so I unsubscribed. I would love to see a tribe started here for UP if anyone else is interested...


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

Pigpen, I also had a hard time with the yahoo group--simply because of the format of yahoo's message boards. So I'd be interested in starting one here. My dd is still very little, so I don't predict being able to contribute concrete stuff yet (although I would lurk), but I'm all for talking about the book.


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## KateSt. (Nov 25, 2003)

Hey mamas, thanks for responding. I, too, have a difficult time with yahoo's format so I'd love to re-strike up the conversation here if others are interested.
Hunnybunnymummy -- my ds is still very young too, so I don't have to worry about actual discipline yet either. I can definitely see some of my patterns that need to be changed, however. Now that I'm aware of it, I can't believe how much I give my almost 6 month old "good job!"s. Dh does it too, and like other women mentioned earlier, I don't know if I can convince him to read this book. He already thinks I'm "out there" on so many levels already. :LOL

So, should we start a new thread or keep this one going?


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

KateSt and HunnyBunnyMummy, I have to say I'm a bit jealous that your kids are still babies...I wish I had this book when my first was a baby. I always considered myself a gentle discipliarian but that's simply b/c we didn't spank. It's been a long road to get where we are now, and we're not anywhere near where I'd like to be! I really need to discuss this philosophy with others to help keep myself in check...I say we start a tribe and link to it here...unless that's against the rules. I'll look into it.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

I'll start a new thread in "Finding Your Tribe" when I get a chance later, unless someone else can first. I'll link to it here...


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh geez, I want to play, too, but the kids just woke up....

I just read the book on this vacation and LOVED it. Appropriate timing, too.
ANd, the kicker...dh is reading it now & sees complete validation for his parenting. hehe I hate to admit he's right.









I'll be back...

Okay, clue me in but why are folks moving over to yahoo? Certainly, this isn't controversial here?


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

I can't really tell you why the yahoo group was started, but I am yahoo group challenged so I just couldn't get the format. I just started a tribe here for all UP interested folks...here's the link http://www.mothering.com/discussions...18#post3604318


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## KateSt. (Nov 25, 2003)

Great! I'm heading over...


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I'm all over getting this conversation going again. Regardless of the Yahoo thread, I think this is an important book to discuss here at MDC.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pigpen*
I wish I had this book when my first was a baby.

Pigpen, this is my ONLY regret about this wonderful book: that it wasn't published in 2001! Oh, and the fact that I don't actually OWN a copy yet. I've been fortunate enough to have had the library's copy of couple of times and I believe I've read it cover to cover at least twice and then some. It's in my top three of parenting books!

The best,
Em


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:LOL My kids are 2 & 4 and I'm so bummed, too! I told dh the first half of the book describes me and the 2nd half saves me. I hope my 4 year old can recover.









I feel like I fall in his middle category. First he gives the popular, negative, reaction. Then, he says, "Wellllll, now some folks think xxxx is a better alternative BUT.... " and he shows why it's still negative. Pseudo choices are a great example of this.

I bought the book for vacation and was bummed to pay the $ but I am very happy that we have it as a resource to keep and to share.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I just finished it and I love it.

I think it will help me better articulate what dh and are doing. So many times I have said I don't do 'outcome based' parenting.

IMO, this is a very important book.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I think it will help me better articulate what dh and are doing. So many times I have said I don't do 'outcome based' parenting.


I like that...I love how clearly he makes the point in the book that most parents hope their children grow up to be independent, happy adults but the way they parent (punishment, shame, authoritative) will most likely end up raising them to be something entirely different. So many people care about the immediate results. Compliance = good parenting. Instead of thinking long term. This is exactly where I was for a long time.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

I started reading this months ago, then put it aside because of a book club obligation, and other "must read" recommendations. Now that I'm back to it, I wish I hadn't put it down!!

I think this is my all-time-favorite parenting book.

Quote:

I think it will help me better articulate what dh and are doing.
Yeah--there's nothing wrong with parenting by gut feelings, but it's nice to read something from someone who's thought it through on an intellectual level and tie it all in together.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Bump.










Came across the "tribe" in FYT and it linked to here.










Am finally reading "Easy to Love ..." by B. Bailey cover to cover (had taken it out of the library some time back and just sort of read it on the fly, a page here and a page there ... now bought myself a copy and started with page 1) and am so fired up about it, it's in my head all day ... and now you've piqued my interest to read "Unconditional Parenting" ... first parenting book I've been inspired to get in a while just from a thread.

So little time, so many pages. :LOL

So a bump.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Me! Me, too! I just started reading this book and will have to -gulp- plow through this whole, long thread. Hoping that there will be some useful, concrete ideas for translating this (so far) fairly philosophical text into actionable ideas for parenting a toddler.


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## maemaesmama (Mar 19, 2004)

Sorry, but what is the title? I may be blind, but can't seem to find it









Nevermind it's the title! OK rugh morning here


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

:


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

bumping since I'm late to the discussion


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

FYI, Kohn has a DVD for this book too; it's a seminar with him speaking. Might help for partners who don't read as much. =)


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