# The point of college?



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I am really wondering how others feel about this. What is the point of college? I always thought it was to help in a future career. But if you are going to major in something that will not lead to employment, that it might be a waste of money. I used to think it would be nice to go to college and just major in what a person is really interested in, even if it is social history of the American Colonial period. But in reality, if you spend a lot of money on college, it should probably be a major that you can move toward a job in. But I also heard on a financial show the other day, that any major is better than no college or delaying college. That many careers are not major specific so in many cases, it does not really matter what you major in, you just need that degree.

I am asking because my two older children say they want to major in computer science (my son) and music (my daughter). I worry because my daughter says she does not want to teach, but loves music so she wants to major in it. If she says she does not want to teach or work with children in any way (she said that too) what can she possibly do with a degree and music? I am picturing us spending a bunch of money on college and/or her having a bunch of student loans, only to have her move back home and work a minimum wage job to try to pay back those loans.

So, I am really interested in opinions and ideas and personal experiences. Thanks!


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

I am one of the people who thought like you do. Unless i can find a major that would allow me to work in my chosen field, why bother? So I didnt Im now in my mid-30s w an under 2yo and if my DH were to leave me tomorrow i could not support us where we live. Even a $12/hr receptionist job here wants a Bachelors.

My DH kinda slid into his field after the army, almost 20 yrs ago. And now is facing the fact that he has very few choices despite 18 yrs experience. When i got pg we started looking for a job closer to home for him. I sent out dozens of resumes each week. Literally. In 6 mos of looking he got 3 calls for interviews. Everyone wants a degree. They dont really care in what (obviously some fields do care about major, but many don't). But the simple lack of that piece of paper really inhibited the job search, most companies wouldnt even look at his resume. It came down to a "choice" of stay where he was miserable or take the 1 offer he got even though it wasn't a very good offer. And now he's back in school working towards his degree because otherwise he's never going to be able to leave this job.

Of course, the degree issue does not apply to trades w an apprenticeship/on the job, but its becoming more and more of an issue everywhere else. Particularly in the current job climate where employers can be extremely selective because the applicant pool is so huge.

I know i have to go back to school and get my degree even though i dread it. The simple fact is that id be better off doing it now than waiting until i need it. Since my DH is 8 yrs older, odds are that i'll need it someday.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Do you think I should just not worry about it and if music is her passion, tell her to go for it? Or try to get her to look at other possibilities? It seems like, for music, she has played for years and people always tell her how great she is at it. But when it comes to science and math, which she is also great at, people just do not say anything positive. I have seen people tell her that is geeky. Blow it off. Or upon hearing she got a 97 and 99 in high school biology, that she is just bragging. These are relatives saying this The same relatives who will congratulate her and tell her how brilliant she is when she plays her instrument. In music, she has community music programs to be in and private lessons. But in science, well, it is very scarce what is available.

I have thought of sending her to a science camp this summer, so she can just have fun with that, but she only wants to go to music camp. It seems a shame to spend the money on science camp when what she really wants is music. But on the other hand, it also feels like people and society in general where we live just is not geared toward encouraging the maths and the sciences so she has not experienced it at all really.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Just having ANY bachelor's degree (no matter what the major) can be a huge huge help in the job market. Unfortunately now many jobs want a Master's as well... which just really annoys me... but anyway...

I would ask your DD to research what kinds of things she'd be able to do with a music degree. (Ask your son as well, although I think it's safe to say he'd have lots of opportunities with a computer science degree, can't hurt for them both to be aware of their options!) Also would make sense for each of them to do the reverse -- look up their top 3 career choices and find out what kind of education is required for those options. I don't need ANY degrees for the job I'm in now, even though it's a professional job and many of us DO have degrees.

But another point I want to make is that just because they start out majoring in X, doesn't mean they'll leave with a degree in X. I started out as an engineering major, was fascinated by the psychology course I took to fulfill my gen. ed requirements... and then even more interested by an elective I took in electronic design (web design/multimedia). I ended up with bachelor's in both psych and electronic design and nearly enough English courses for a third major. I only finished one semester of engineering! And I don't think my story is all that unusual. I think college can provide a well-rounded education (if you take it seriously, that is!) and expose you to areas of study you might otherwise not consider...

ETA: I also met my DH at college, so I consider it a VERY worthwhile investment


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

For me, there was no point so I didn't go. I knew what I wanted and college would have gotten in the way of that, rather than helped.

I do not consider "the college experience" a necessary social experience for a necessary and happy life. Apparently many people do, as their objections to me forgoing it and not making it mandatory for my children were primarily social. Weird.

Dh will make sure our children get some kind of post-highschool education. That is an unquestioned mandate in our house. But it will probably look very different than what most people think of when they think "college". Hopefully in 10 or so years as they get to that age, the opportunities for alternative and distance learning will be much greater.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Just having ANY bachelor's degree (no matter what the major) can be a huge huge help in the job market. Unfortunately now many jobs want a Master's as well.


This, for sure. I was in Human Resources for several years, and even for entry-level administrative positions, a bachelor's degree was usually required, or at least preferred.

It shows longevity and commitment. It's not nearly as hard to get into college as it is to graduate from college.

In this job market, where even those with advanced degrees are having trouble finding jobs, a degree is not a waste.

I have a very good friend who majored in music and minored in computer science. He has worked in IT since he graduated 15 years ago, and is an IT director.

I know many people who ended up working in a different field than what their degrees are in. That's not uncommon at all.


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

Yeah, i had to go back and finish my degree when i found myself single with children - and underemployed. I had plenty of credits in Sociology - so i figured i could finish that major quickly. Thats literally how i decided what my major should be! But it got me a decent paying job as an Admin Asst ...nothing to do with sociology.... Also she really doesnt have to nail down her major the first day of college - she has two years i beleive - and in that time she may find something marketable that also interests her. Its always worth it to get the degree....i had one professor say "it proves that you can jump through a certain set of hoops"


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.


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## shnitzel (Jan 6, 2010)

I do think she needs to look at her goals. What she is eventually interested in doing and how much earning potential she will have and what sort of lifestyle she will be happy with, it will all change in the next couple of years but I do think it is important to be realistic. She definitely needs a degree of some sort and I would for sure encourage applying to more colleges than one, she can always refuse them if she is accepted. This is coming from someone who has been working on a Ba for 6 years and has been to 3 colleges. I was brought up that studying for something practical is very important since 2 of my grandparents have PHd's in extremely useless topics and found it quite useless.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 


> My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.


When she only wanted to major in music, I was on her side. I think that pursuing our passions is always a good thing, and almost everyone I know changed majors in college, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about a kid starting out with a major that sounds unemployable.

I was also going to suggest figuring out ways to keep the cost down -- living at home, doing the first 2 years at community college, applying for scholarships etc. There are ways for kids to get through with a semi-reasonable expense if their parents are super supportive and they live in a mid-size city.

However, she looses me at Julliard. With that one, I think she sounds like she's just being difficult. It's great that she wants to apply, and I'd be getting her a nice thick book of scholarships to apply for. I don't know that I would pay for more than what in-state tuition cost.

When you add her whole list together -- only music, NO teaching, only Julliard, it seems a little out of touch with reality and like she really doesn't want to work.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

What it sounds like is she doesn't want to go to college but she feels like she has no choice. So she's going to make it as hard as possible to force her to go.

Honestly, I would just back off. Not having a college degree is not a death sentence. And she can go back later. It sounds like she needs to find out what real life is like instead. Maybe tell her you will assist with living expenses for 6 months in lieu of college but she has to go out and be a grown up on her own after that?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bokonon*
> 
> This, for sure. I was in Human Resources for several years, and even for entry-level administrative positions, a bachelor's degree was usually required, or at least preferred.
> 
> It shows longevity and commitment.


Thank you for explaining some of the thinking. This isn't even remotely true (lots of people without degrees will stick with a company for a long time, and be committed to their jobs, and lots of people with degrees job hop a lot), but at least now I have a handle on where some of the bizarre requirements for degrees come from. I've been wondering for a long time.

OP: I guess you need to figure out what you want your daughter to get out of college. If she's getting what you think she should get, you pay for it. If she's not, she pays for it. Thats' probably how I'd work it, if I were going to be paying for any of my children's post-secondary education at all, which i'm not.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Well I do think applying to only one college could majorly backfire on her... What's her plan if she's not accepted???

I also wouldn't spend more money on my kid's college than I thought was reasonable. So, if I could afford it, I'd help them pay for state college, but if they wanted to go somewhere more expensive, I would only give them the same amount as state tuition... Easy to say when I only have a 2yo though!









Also, it's been a while, but I thought the PSAT's were more of a practice round? As in, I don't think they *need* to send their scores anywhere, I don't remember colleges requiring anything but SAT (or ACT) scores, and if they've never taken that kind of test, it might even be better NOT to send the scores because they have no clue how they'll perform on it... so I'd not put any colleges on the 'send scores' thing and buy you all another year or so to think things through & figure it all out. (But, I'm sure things could have changed or I'm misunderstanding, so don't take my word on that!)


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I just wanted to add with a cousin who recently graduated from Julliard (well over a year go but semi-recent)...

Julliard is NOT the kind of school where you just apply and that is that. Unless you are a prodigy in some way the odds of being accepted are slim. For my cousin she was specifically asked to attend and she accepted. They can be really picky and my cousin said you basically either know someone who knows someone, they ask you or you apply. The odds of anyone getting in just by applying is pretty slim, they only take a very small number of straight applicants each year. If your DD is good at music that is nice but that probably doesn't translate into talented enough to attend Julliard...Don't want to be mean that is just the way it is...


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

There are lots of reasons that people elect to go to college. Personally, I attended a liberal arts college, and that's kind of the philosophy of education that I believe in. I think that a diploma is one thing, and the information and experience another matter. I've worked in an academic setting (a University, then a College, now a Tech School) and have observed lots of paths that people take to get to positions that they enjoy.

I've known lots of people who have general degrees, or humanities degrees, and while it's not that same degree that a vocational or technical school could provide-- with a specific career goal in mind, a degree in music can really lead to a fulfilling career. My best friend from childhood works at Converse, which is a small liberal arts music-oriented school. She went there and got a bachelor's in music and stayed there to get a master's. She is pretty happy with her career. At the time, though, it wasn't as though she could tell people: hey.. i'm going to school to get a music degree so i can have _____ as a career. Lots of people who work with nonprofits and things like that get experience in that liberal arts setting, do internships, find other paths to a satisfying job. I wouldn't discourage it, not in the least.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> So, if I could afford it, I'd help them pay for state college, but if they wanted to go somewhere more expensive, I would only give them the same amount as state tuition... Easy to say when I only have a 2yo though!


That's kind of how my DH and I feel, and our kids are teens.

It's shaking up a little different since we really know our kids current preferences and strengths and weakness.

One child is currently dreaming of culinary school, which cost more than a state college, but is only a year. It's also all about her dream job, so we are 100% supportive and will pay (if that stays her plan). We like that she is focused on what she actually wants to do for full time to earn a living.

The other child wants to study the sciences, may be go to grad school. Her ultimate goal is to work in research. She's quirky -- both gifted and with special needs. We really like the idea of a state university, and one of the very best one's in the country is 20 minutes from our house, but she might do much, much better at a smaller school with more hand holding. She goes to a small, private school right now. We'll have to play it by ear. On one hand, since she would like to be in school for a very long time, we want to keep costs reasonable. At the same time, doing our part to make sure she's successful is more important than money. She's only 14, and I plan to encourage her to apply for a wide variety of scholarships, essay contests, etc. Her deal is a little different because she's a little different. Raising a 2E kid is complicated.

So, while I agree with you in principle, the details (at our house anyway) are a little more complicated.

It's odd -- my DH is an executive at an aerospace firm and has a lot of pull when it comes to hiring people. He looks fondly on candidates who started at community college because it's his experience is that the are hard workers. The had to really push for their educations, nothing was handed to them. We also have many friend who's kids are only slightly older than ours who've gone away to college at 18 and fallen right on their faces. We aren't convinced that trotting off to a pressured program when you are 18 is the path to success or happiness. So while we really think CC is a good idea, right now it doesn't look like either of our kids will go there.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Thank you for explaining some of the thinking. This isn't even remotely true (lots of people without degrees will stick with a company for a long time, and be committed to their jobs, and lots of people with degrees job hop a lot)


I agree, but for applicants with little or no experience, having a college degree shows a much higher level of commitment than 4 years working at the mall, for example. Most companies would also prefer college graduates because it looks good on their reports. If a company is about to go public, having a large percentage of their employees with degrees looks more impressive on paper than otherwise.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

I agree with Linda on the Move and Rightkindofme. It sounds like shes making things difficult (which may be subconscious). It may be that she's just not ready. I started college at 17. I've started and stopped at least 4 times and have paid over $20K in tuition/student loans off and still dont have a degree. I just didnt have the motivation/purpose to finish. If i go back now (in my 30s), it'll be a different experience. I have a LO, and a totally different set of motivators now.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

oh to the original question. The point of college?
well I wouldn't know seeing as I dropped out precisely because I didn't see the point!

I am not interested in pushing paper or working in an office type setting and I found a very good paying job at 19, 15 bucks an hour, working outside at a plant nursery. I loved it immensely. It was wonderful to be outside doing new things every single day. I learned so much. I could have gone to school and got a degree in landscape design but I didn't need it at all. There are so many jobs that don't require a college degree but the good ones are often more labor orientated, working outside doing physical stuff and for alot of people I feel like there is a stigma of being poor attached with that. Personally I love it and so does DH. He works in a skilled labor position and has a decade of experience. A college degree would mean absolutely nothing to him if he went for a similar job with someone else.

Sometimes, I think there is a generational gap here as well. My generation grew up being told the only way you will succeed at all in this world is with a degree. Most of the kids I know who have their degrees now are pretty pissed off that they have a piece of paper, no awesome job to show for it and are now having to pay back student loans that will take them possibly decades to pay off. College is really not the be all end all of your life. For some people it is the only way to get where they want to go but for others (like me or my DH) we just don't need it. I can go out today and get a decent well paying job working outside without a degree. It wouldn't be a problem.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> That's kind of how my DH and I feel, and our kids are teens.
> 
> ...


Totally makes sense.







I feel silly even giving my opinions on this since DS is so young & who knows how his uniqueness will ultimately affect these kinds of decision? So I understand where you're coming from. I was somewhat like your DD I guess... "gifted" but with other issues (not special needs but more... mental issues/emotional issues... was on an IEP in high school and eventually they just threw up their hands and said they didn't know what to do with me...







) I ended up skipping my senior year of high school & going to a state university. I'm not sure that was the best place for me but that was the only place that would accept me without a HS diploma. The intent was to transfer after my freshman year but that never happened. It's just as well, because somehow I got through college in one piece, and I'm glad at least that I don't have HUGE school loans like I would have if I'd gone elsewhere... OK I'm totally going off on a tangent here...


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

LotM - i recommend doing some reading on culinary programs. Most are not worth the money, and the experience can be gained w an apprenticeship. I know one of the local culinary (2yr) schools, which is a national name has become a laughing stock. Nobody local will touch a recent graduate anymore. This blog http://eggbeater.typepad.com/ has some good info on learning on the job.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I for one can sympathize with your daughter. She may be making it difficult, but that wasn't at all my first thought. I thought my life would be over (or something, lol) if I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I didn't even want to consider anything else. I don't have any words of wisdom about that. I got over it in my own way and time.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I think the value in any post-high school training or education (and I include the miltary in this) is that it teaches a person to think independently, problem solve, develop critical thinking skills, responsibility and so on.

Of course, these skills can be taught at home or learned from parents or mentors but based on what I have seen over the past ten years, young people are coming out of high school with no social skills or work ethic. We are in a blue collar industry and so, so many young people need their hand held to get get to work on time, to be told it isn't ok to text the day away, keep track of your tools and so on.

Completing some sort of post high school program shows they had the focus to follow through with something that will benefit them in the future. Maybe I shouldn't generalize but I see a noticable difference between the trade school/prior military experience people and the ones with no formal training as it relates to responsibility and skills.

Specifically related to college, the advice already given to guide a student to research and investigate life after obtaining that "passion" degree is so important.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I think she should think about what she REALLY wants to do. I knew exactly what I (thought I) wanted to do, went to college, majored in it, and never returned to that field beyond some part-time volunteer work. In some ways, I feel it was a waste of time, and on the surface maybe that's true. Having a random degree got me my first job, which taught me that I'm terrible at marketing, but led to another job, which I was also terrible at. BUT, I hated that job and managed to find some little task (employee OTJ training) to distract me from my misery. That led to a lifelong (til DS came along) career that ended up being a lot of fun and quite lucrative. So no, college didn't prepare me AT ALL for my career. But I did gain a LOT of life experience, great friends, and a lot of perspective on the way other people think and see the world. If she's not sure what she wants to do for a living, she might just find it in a class she takes there. Or she might still be clueless when she graduates. You never know. I really don't see how it can be a total waste -- she will get SOMETHING out of it, assuming she puts in any effort at all. Maybe she could consider a double major, music and math, or something else that she's interested in? You never know where that could lead her.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

I am replying without reading the other responses. I was a singer who considered a classical performance degree and skipped college. I don't miss singing although there are many, many local classical groups I could join now if I wanted to. I had already met dh and we would get married and I knew I'd be a SAHM eventually. It just wasn't important to me. I ended up graduating high school, working for my dad for awhile until I had my first child 3 years later.

No regrets from me. All of our local Starbucks employees are college graduates who can't find work in their fields...we're talking 3-5 years after college.

Having said that dh has a bachelors and masters and like college so I am not against it at all!


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## alittlesandy (Jan 20, 2010)

Ok, in the interest of full disclosure I will say that I have a Ph.D. and I'm a university professor, so I may be a little biased on this issue.









I feel that college is more than just a piece of paper, no matter what your major. It teaches you to think differently, and to think critically. This does not necessarily happen with self-taught individuals, who are not always pushed to think critically and differently about certain topics. This is a generalization, of course. There are MANY people who didn't go to college who know how to think critically, and many college graduates who do not.

This is why many companies and businesses prefer college graduates, regardless of major. College teaches you how to learn. So it doesn't matter what you learned, because moving forward, you know HOW to approach any new learning task, which is what it means to start at a new job.

I wouldn't worry too much about kids who want to major in "useless" degrees. I got a BA in English and an MA in literature, both useless. However, I was always able to get jobs, and eventually I decided to go into public school teaching and then higher education.

Just my two cents!


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

In my case, I ended up deciding on a career for which I needed a grad degree. When I finished undergrad, I had no idea this was the way I would go, and had little idea what I'd actually do. But it was good that I had the undergrad degree in SOMETHING because if I'd had to go do all of that before starting my doctoral program, it would have taken an age. An undergrad degree positions a person to get an advanced degree, which these days is often what you need if you want to go into something specialized. OTOH, I'm fully in favor of a gap year for kids who really don't feel motivated post-high school, and of some exploring of what potential jobs are they can consider with their interests and majoring in X or Y or Z.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bokonon*
> 
> I agree, but for applicants with little or no experience, having a college degree shows a much higher level of commitment than 4 years working at the mall, for example. Most companies would also prefer college graduates because it looks good on their reports. If a company is about to go public, having a large percentage of their employees with degrees looks more impressive on paper than otherwise.


I still disagree, not about the PR effect, but the other side of it. There are a lot of assumptions made about people with degrees vs. people without degrees. IME, in the workplace, they rarely pan out the way people claim that they do. A degree shows that someone has put in four years in a college/university environment, which isn't the same as the workplace. Some make the transition well, and some don't. I'd also like to know what lack of commitment is demonstrated by putting in four years of working "at the mall", if it's all in the same place.

School, even post-secondary, and the workplace require different things, and the assumption that performance/commitment/perserverance in one place will necessarily translate into the same things in the other isn't founded in reality. It's based on assumptions that have been culturally accepted as facts, even though they aren't. I can also tell you that I've worked for mutliple people who would hire someone with four years of working "at the mall" before they'd hire someone with a degree and less actual work experience, for many jobs, especially entry level. Those people weren't HR - they were hiring for their own departments - and a degree wasn't a necessity, in any way.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I've been on both sides of this. I have a "passion" degree (visual arts) and a more practical degree (law). I pursued my passion degree straight out of high school, because there was nothing I wanted to be more than an artist. I didn't think about employment, money, stability. Art was something that I excelled at and any other option seemed absolutely boring! I was fortunate to get a full four-year scholarship for art school, as well as a paid masters program. That time period gave me a lot of time to grow intellectually and emotionally. I lived and breathed art. I'll never regret that.

Well, reality eventually set in when I hit the pavement. I was able to get a lot of different art-related jobs and ended up doing a lot of low-paying (extremely low paying) gigs in theatre production. I didn't mind being poor because I was doing what I loved. It is amazing what a person will put up with in the name of art! (my musician friends were much the same way). DH had a decent but low paying civil servant job, but as the years wore on, living check to check and gig to gig started wearing thin. I decided to go back for a professional degree because we knew we eventually wanted a little more financial stability in our life. I don't regret that choice either.

There will never be a day when I regret my art degree. In retrospect I learned a lot about myself and was able to fine-tune a passion. It may have not been a particularly employable degree, but it shaped me for the rest of my life. I should also add too that while your daughter, OP, claims she won't teach, reality often changes one's tune on the other side. I keep thinking back to when I was 16 or 17, and I had a lot of ideas about life. Putting those ideas into practice was a much different dynamic. Personally I wish that I had had a mentor (an actual artist) who would have been there to provide guidance pre-college. Instead I just bumbled along and had to find a lot of things out the hard way. Finally, I like a previous poster's suggestion regarding a double major. I know a lot of young people do that now and while it may require extra effort, it may be worth it.

I don't know if I answered the question of 'what is the purpose of college' but I guess my own personal feelings is that it serves multiple purposes. I think the big problem now is that a lot of kids go to college with no passion for what they want to do, or they just don't know what they want to do. I think as a parent, my goal would be to cultivate my DD's interests and provide her with all the facts (as I know them) in order for her to navigate in the world. This may or may not include college, but I want her to be able to stand on her own. If she chooses to do something that is more esoteric, then I want her to be aware of not only the good parts, but the difficulties that she will encounter too.

Edited for spelling (perhaps I should have spent more time fine-tuning my grammer/spelling skills)!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> LotM - i recommend doing some reading on culinary programs. Most are not worth the money, and the experience can be gained w an apprenticeship. I know one of the local culinary (2yr) schools, which is a national name has become a laughing stock. Nobody local will touch a recent graduate anymore. This blog http://eggbeater.typepad.com/ has some good info on learning on the job.


LotM - i completely second cristeen's point here.

CA is actually thinking of taking away any funding from culinary school.

culinary school IS a joke. most chefs tell me that. its much better to intern or even volunteer as a sous chef. low paying slave labour is better training than culinary school.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I still disagree, not about the PR effect, but the other side of it. There are a lot of assumptions made about people with degrees vs. people without degrees. IME, in the workplace, they rarely pan out the way people claim that they do. A degree shows that someone has put in four years in a college/university environment, which isn't the same as the workplace. Some make the transition well, and some don't. I'd also like to know what lack of commitment is demonstrated by putting in four years of working "at the mall", if it's all in the same place.
> 
> School, even post-secondary, and the workplace require different things, and the assumption that performance/commitment/perserverance in one place will necessarily translate into the same things in the other isn't founded in reality. It's based on assumptions that have been culturally accepted as facts, even though they aren't. I can also tell you that I've worked for mutliple people who would hire someone with four years of working "at the mall" before they'd hire someone with a degree and less actual work experience, for many jobs, especially entry level. Those people weren't HR - they were hiring for their own departments - and a degree wasn't a necessity, in any way.


I wonder, though when you talk about working places where they put 4 years at the mall over 4 years of college, what kinds of jobs those would be. Are they jobs that are actual careers, or are they just jobs? All things being equal, the person with the degree will get first shot. Probably almost every time.

I do think that good-quality, well-paying and stable jobs are easier to get with at least a bachelor's. Any bachelor's. My undergrad degree was in linguistics... Slavic linguistics, even. Right in the midst of my early career in the field (I was living in Russia), they went and pulled the Cold War rug right out from under my feet. However, I still snagged a great paying job when I returned to the US because I had A degree.

The fact is that if you have a degree, the probability of being paid more is higher. So, it's not just about obtaining a job, but having a career and making a good living. The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.

Sure there are assumptions made about people with degrees vs. those that do not. My FIL was a cobbler back in Turkey. He had a 3rd grade education. My dh is a PhD, MIT grad, professor of computer science and is quite literally the most intelligent person I've ever met in real life (and I've met a lot of very intelligent people). My dh says that his father was more intelligent than him. His dad always wanted to go to school, but he dropped out to apprentice to a cobbler and put his sister, a physician, through school instead. Education does not indicate intelligence, but it typically directly affects how far you can get in your career. My FIL was always poor. His sister went on to make a decent living. They were of similar intelligence. I knew a lot of people at the pharma company where I worked that were really smart... but they were on the manufacturing line making $35,000/year instead of being a systems analyst making $70,000 or $80,000 (or more) a year. The only difference was a 4 year degree. I worked with a 55 year old guy who was a great sys analyst, but he didn't have a degree and at 25 years old, I was already making more than him. We did the SAME job (except he was better). He'd hit the ceiling of earning potential.

And I think that some of the pp's touched on this already, but many people FIND themselves at university. I don't mean socially. Just the intellectual intercourse that occurs on a campus cannot be duplicated anywhere else. There is NOTHING like university living, a meeting of diverse minds, a discourse of ideas, and discussions of beliefs. I went to university at 17 and I felt like I had lived my life with blinders on my eyes until then. I learned to SEE THE WORLD by going to school. People who have never been to college *cannot* understand this, within this scope. Some who do go, don't understand it because they didn't take advantage of it. But the very culture of a university is completely unique and cannot be experienced anywhere else... for better or worse.

If my dd wanted to go to university to study something so obscure as the history of the dulcimer, I would do whatever I could to make it happen. Whatever she wants to do, I will make it happen, as long as she goes. Those years are precious beyond compare and worth the money, IMO. It is important enough to us that even though she is 9, we're already looking at universities when dh has conferences and on trips. She *is* expected to go to college, though. We are raising her to expect it herself.


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## K1329 (Apr 6, 2009)

I think a college degree opens more doors. I am currently working part time and making more money than many of my friends who work full time. My position requires a degree, and, my degree is a liberal arts degree - not field specific.
My dh is looking to change jobs and can't apply for many openings he sees, because he doesn't hold a degree.
However, that said, maxing student loans is a mistake, IMO. like a pp mentioned, there are ways to minimize debt. Attending a community college, then transferring to a 4 yr institution is one way to reduce costs.
In your dd's case, what about pursuing music therapy?


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> The fact is that if you have a degree, the probability of being paid more is higher. *So, it's not just about obtaining a job, but having a career and making a good living. The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go*. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.


well I can imagine people get defensive with that kind of attitude!

Pretty insulting. I may not have graduated college but I certainly don't think it is worthless!! It balances out to be unnecessary and the degree itself would be WORTH LESS to me since my ultimate goal requires no degree nor does it have one.. College has many worths but they are different for each person and a lot of times the worth of college is not enough to make it practical or useful to actually go... My best friend who graduated Suma will tell you to your face it was a waste of her time and money, she wishes she had worked instead. Her degree hasn't helped her get a job at all, obviously her case isn't the norm but it is becoming closer to the norm all the time. I know it is cliche and many disagree but college degrees don't mean what they used to, when everyone around you has a degree you all have nothing. The kid who has been working their butt off since they were 18, has something..

I will encourage DD to go to college if she truly wants to but if she doesn't I'm not about to twist her arm over it!


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## JoyFilled (Sep 12, 2008)

Another thing that most college degrees teach is how to write. There are countless jobs that require a degree because the job involves writing reports and writing for grants.

I think a lot of graduates are out of work because they are not willing to move for work or want to start at the top earning a million dollars.

I also agree that college is not for everyone. And if it's not for you, you should save the money and pursue something else.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I wonder, though when you talk about working places where they put 4 years at the mall over 4 years of college, what kinds of jobs those would be. Are they jobs that are actual careers, or are they just jobs? All things being equal, the person with the degree will get first shot. Probably almost every time.
> 
> ...


ETA: I didn't answer your initial question. I was talking about entry-level, and somewhat above, positions. They were the kind of jobs that could, and did, lead to careers, but could also be dead-end. They weren't high level (say $35,000-$40,000/year, 10-15 years ago). But, one of the things that keeps coming up in this thread is that a degree is a basic requirement even for entry level jobs, because it shows this, that and the other thing about the applicant. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't always show those things, and is definitely not necessary, except for mistaken cultural assumptions, for an entry-level position.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

ok to hijack this thread a little...

... i am in school myself. i see other students around me. and i shake my head. most of them should not be here... my education experience and theirs are completely different.

.. i am hating what college education is turning out to be.

i am hating how people are looking at as that is the only option open to their children.

i look at the curriculum, the disinterested students, the burnt out proffs and wonder why. it seems we are playing into the system.

there is no 'education' going on in college. the amount there is going on is outside the classroom if you become a part of the club and become active in issues surrounding you.

to me education seems to be more about 'workforce' rather than concern for the human being.

let me tell you it leaves me sooo jaded.

a better experience would be perhaps a break for the kids who dont really know what to do. like france that makes people do 2 years army or community work for which many go abroad - sorta like peace corps.

definitely a degree will provide you with more buying power in the end, but at a cost.

i do not like the focus on science and math. there is sooo much money in that field. in college. with scholarships.

there is a 'defocus' from liberal arts subject. so the scientist has no training in philosophy or ethics unless he took them as electives, the pediatrician has no education in early childhood education or culture(anthropology) unless he took them as electives sometimes perhaps even in high school.

mind you this is me talking even more after watching 'waiting for superman'. as much as i was moved by that film i so didnt agree with a lot in it.

i hope my dd will never have the focus of money. i hope she will not have a job as a way to pay bills, but as play. most of the students i see here - many of them dont really care about the subjects. they just want to get a degree so they can make good money. its all about the money.

a degree is a way of making sure dd will have the ease to put meat on the table. more than anything i hope she does something that feeds her soul. those are just too many hours - 40 hours a week - just to throw away to put food on the table.

i hate what education is now. how big businesses are abounding there and making sure they get their workforce.

with the research in brain coming out - and seeing many kids suffer thru k and 1st - i wonder shouldnt we start K at 7 or 8 and graduate at 20? is it fair to ask kids at 20/21 to choose what the rest of their life is going to be.

college is definitely not for everyone. it cannot be touted as a sure shot unless you are only looking at financial gains.

i am getting the experience i wanted out of college because i want to be here. however in my 20s my college degree was kinda a waste of time. i did it to please my parents. i got nothing 'self growth' out of it. instead i get that now as a returnee to a community college waiting to apply to grad school. and it is students like me the teachers want to teach. however students like me are rare to find at 20.

i do not expect my dd to go to college after hs unless she very much wants to.

OP - i would definitely not go bankrupt to pay for Julliard. I would definitely make the attempt but also try at other universities too.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I personally think its important to pick a field that is in demand and going to be more then well I have this degree and now what. While I will encourage our kids that a post high school education is important I am not going to encourage them to do something that isn't going to be achievable for them or something that will not benefit them outside of the knowledge and the idea of just saying I have it.

I also don't think everyone is meant for college. I also think a trade school or military would be better for some people. Even with the military I know when my husband decided to join he went for a job that would benefit him outside of the military. It is important to do something a person enjoys however it should be reasonable.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

back to the OP:

Is your daughter level headed, frugal and/or independent? Then she will face those challenges in collge, and make practical educational choices because of her personality.

I got a BFA from Parsons (sort of the Julliard of Fine Arts). I wanted to major in painting or sculpture, but chose Graphic Design. Not because I loved the major, but because I wanted to independently stand on my own two feet when I was done, and not starve or wait tables. I have been working and making money ever since. I think because of personality more than actual degree.

Also related, my DSD goes to a good music school here, majoring in opera singing and piano. Yes, maybe another "impractical" major, but I have never seen a 20 yo work so hard. Every weekend she is paid to sing at weddings, funerals, whatever she can get; which increases her experience and pays her bills. Again, it goes back to her personality, her drive, and her sense of being a practical person.

I agree with others that your daughter's eventual job may have little or nothing to do with the degree. I ended up testing software, which has nearly nothing to do with a fine arts degree. As crunchy_mommy pointed out, having ANY bachelor's degree (no matter what the major) can be a huge huge help in the job market. In fact I think a bachelors today is worth about a high school diploma 30 years ago. A masters is the new bachelors. The assumptions about people with degrees versus those without degrees is actually irrelevant, if 95% of the people who could be hiring you believe the assumption.

Sometimes I still wish I had chosen painting as a major, but then I would not be who, what and where I am today. And, technically, now I am painting again, and have just exhibited 4 paintings in the city art museum, so not bad! Point here being that if music is truly your daughter's passion, she will find a way to keep coming back to it, degree in music or not. And if it is her passion and she cuts herself off from it, or someone else pushes her away from it, she may become bitter, or angry or resentful, or all of the above.

Regarding only Julliard; I'd advise her to apply to at least two other schools, as a backup plan. She can always go to the backup plan and apply again to Julliard the following year. Or in reverse: go to Julliard, decide to switch majors and switch schools. That year will NOT be a waste of education, or of life experience. She will not know if it is possible unless she tries. *And if she doesn't try, she will ALWAYS wonder. ALWAYS. And sometimes we have to let them try, even if we are afraid they will get horribly hurt. Better to be hurt, then always be wondering something like that.* And sometimes they surprise us, and reach farther than we could imagine. I have a family friend who went there and is now a conductor in switzerland. Just saying, you never know.

I don't know you or your DD, so I don't know if she is consciously or subconsciously trying to be difficult, as other posters mentioned, or if she has an internal drive that she must fulfill. I think it is plausible. Many artists have this drive, painters, musicians, writers&#8230;. If you told a painter they could not paint anymore, they would take up sculpture, or sneak paints, or find some other outlet, or they would literally go nuts. It's part of their brain. An integral part, as relevant as legs are to walking.

Or maybe she just does not know yet what she wants to do, which seems very logical to me. Most 17 yo don't. Heck, most 35 yo don't! A gap year of work and travel is very popular here, and I think very useful. It is not a waste of time, unless the individual chooses to make it a waste.

Let us know what she decides.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

One of my neighbor's 3 or 4 jobs happens to be working at the mall. She is busting her ass to support her family. I have to laugh to compare my 4 cushy years of college (I recall a lot of free time, reading, socializing, hanging out) with her life, and to suggest that my degree shows any more commitment than her commitment to feeding her family and keeping a roof over their heads.

Now the flip side of that could indeed be that if she had a college degree, maybe she wouldn't have to be working 3 or 4 jobs including one at the mall. I dunno. But society sure does have a weird way of looking at things if they think my neighbor's lack of a college degree implies any lack of commitment.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laohaire*
> 
> One of my neighbor's 3 or 4 jobs happens to be working at the mall. She is busting her ass to support her family. I have to laugh to compare my 4 cushy years of college (I recall a lot of free time, reading, socializing, hanging out) with her life, and to suggest that my degree shows any more commitment than her commitment to feeding her family and keeping a roof over their heads.
> 
> Now the flip side of that could indeed be that if she had a college degree, maybe she wouldn't have to be working 3 or 4 jobs including one at the mall. I dunno. But society sure does have a weird way of looking at things if they think my neighbor's lack of a college degree implies any lack of commitment.


laohaire, you are extremely fortunate to have your cushy job. my awesome ph d proff is busting his ass to support himself. he is still an adjunct running between campuses, getting some classes cut and taking on a 2nd and 3rd job. he wouldnt have it any different but there is a huge possibility that your neighbour could be a college graduate who didnt get lucky.

so the flip side - a college education cannot guarantee you a job. or even a cushy life. most college grads are busting their ass to live the kind of life they would like to live.

but yeah i agree with you society is skewed about lack of commitment.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I am really wondering how others feel about this. What is the point of college? I always thought it was to help in a future career. But if you are going to major in something that will not lead to employment, that it might be a waste of money. I used to think it would be nice to go to college and just major in what a person is really interested in, even if it is social history of the American Colonial period. But in reality, if you spend a lot of money on college, it should probably be a major that you can move toward a job in. But I also heard on a financial show the other day, that any major is better than no college or delaying college. That many careers are not major specific so in many cases, it does not really matter what you major in, you just need that degree.
> 
> ...


It is possible to make money in music. My brother and I both make a living in music, although he works more and makes a lot more than I do. I have complete confidence that if I didn't have a daughter I could make a living singing. I've been hired many times over and have won thousands of dollars in competitions. The only reason I'm not singing a lot is because I made a choice to be home with my DD. I usually get at least $200 a gig. If i were still singing opera , i would earn between $4,000 -11,000 a show. My brother makes over $1000,000 a year as a violin soloist and section leader in a major orchestra.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> laohaire, you are extremely fortunate to have your cushy job. my awesome ph d proff is busting his ass to support himself. he is still an adjunct running between campuses, getting some classes cut and taking on a 2nd and 3rd job. he wouldnt have it any different but there is a huge possibility that your neighbour could be a college graduate who didnt get lucky.
> 
> ...


Is he a full professor or an instructor? Academia is a whole other animal than any other career path. Just as medicine is. When did you become ABD? Congrats on passing your exams!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm not done with the thread, but I want to respond to these bits now.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*


School, even post-secondary, and the workplace require different things, and the assumption that performance/commitment/perserverance in one place will necessarily translate into the same things in the other isn't founded in reality. It's based on assumptions that have been culturally accepted as facts, even though they aren't.

What she said.

velochic: The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.... Some who do go, don't understand it because they didn't take advantage of it. But the very culture of a university is completely unique and cannot be experienced anywhere else... for better or worse.

HAHAHAHAHA. No. I went to college. I have a Bachelors in English Lit, a teaching credential, and I completed a Masters program with a 3.6 GPA but left without a degree. I was told I "didn't write fast enough" during the three hour timed writing exam at the end. It was "obvious I knew the material" but there just "wasn't enough length". I wanted to be a teacher, so I needed a degree. I do not think there was any intrinsic worth to what I did. I do not share your attitude towards college in the slightest.

More after I read the third page.

That didn't take long.  Ok, so I gave my blurb about my college educational experience up there. My husband has two BAs from CMU. Obviously we are fairly interested in education. We probably qualify as snooty liberal elitists. We are far richer than I ever dreamed I would be when I was living in the car with my family as a kid. College opened a lot of doors for me. Not in the ways velochic means. I treated getting my BA like getting a job. I went to a junior college then transferred to a state school. I went to my classes and then I went back to my life. I did not do the "college experience". I would like to laugh hysterically at the idea that I was seriously missing out because what I did instead gave me wings. I have accomplished a lot. I needed a formal education to do the career I felt passionately about. So I did it. It was a set of hoops. I have no delusions about it helping me grow as a person. It did increase my *knowledge* and that was useful, of course, because I wanted to turn around and teach the exact same stuff. I needed *my specific degree*.

Ok, so here are my views on college for my kids. We are prepared to spend $100,000 per kid on education/life/something post-18. That's both a lot of money and not a lot of money. There are a few big catches here. I want to feel like my money is well spent and I'm *freakin* judgmental. I don't have a problem with feeling judgmental about my money. I'm a capitalist. I think that if I have a kid with serious talent who wants to go do the starving artist thing while they figure out what they have to say to the world, I'm ok with being Bank of Mom and Dad for enough money to keep from actually starving or being homeless. They will still have to do at least part time work. I'm not supporting adult children entirely.  I will pay for them to go to any college they want to go to. I will at least partially fund travel for a few years. I want to negotiate with the kids how the money comes to them and when.

I received $1,200/month every month starting when I was 18 and ending this coming September when I turn 30. That's an accident settlement from when I was mauled by a dog when I was 5. That money allowed me to get set up in life. I am profoundly grateful I had it. I have the means to pass a similar kind of safety net on to my kids and I want to do it.

But if I think they are F-ing around and I think I'm wasting my money, I'm not paying for it. If they want to go to college, they need to freakin well pass their classes. If they want to travel, I'm not going to be paying for hookers and blow in Bangkok, you know? If they do not use the money on education I would really like to save 50% of it for a future house downpayment for each of them.

So I don't think college is the only road to a happy life. I think it has value *if* you want a career that requires it. Otherwise I think you should just go be you.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> ETA: I didn't answer your initial question. I was talking about entry-level, and somewhat above, positions. They were the kind of jobs that could, and did, lead to careers, but could also be dead-end. They weren't high level (say $35,000-$40,000/year, 10-15 years ago). But, one of the things that keeps coming up in this thread is that a degree is a basic requirement even for entry level jobs, because it shows this, that and the other thing about the applicant. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't always show those things, and is definitely not necessary, except for mistaken cultural assumptions, for an entry-level position.


My post you commented on *doesn't* necessarily apply to you. It applies to my family. There is no comment that could be "offensive" because I was talking about MY daughter, not anyone else's in regards to the expectation to go to college.

The fact is that not just I, but much of the world, considers a college education (of any sort) to be valuable. Trying to argue that the fact doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. I also don't discount apprenticeships and trade schools. It doesn't necessarily have to be university. I think education beyond high school is invaluable even if it doesn't earn you money.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

yup, my dh is a chef self taught and this is the best way in his opinion. it was a running joke at his old job that when they would get a newbie from the culinary school- they'd give them 2 weeks before they quit. it is a lot of hard work you don't just skip to being a food network star. the food biz is something you need to really enjoy- its tough.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> LotM - i completely second cristeen's point here.
> 
> ...


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

I have a "useless" BA (in women's studies) and I think it's pretty valuable. For one thing, it's a class marker. My family is currently low income but people treat us with more respect because we are educated. It sucks and it is unfair and wrong but that is the world we live in and I want my kids to have at least as many opportunities as I do.

I just started back for a nursing degree. Since I already have a BA, I can get a BSN in under 2 years. I'm also having a much easier time in my classes than people without prior college experience. Literally half the class had to drop anatomy and physiology because it was too hard for them. So college definitely prepared me for my current career path even though I have to go back for a little bit.

My husband gets paid to read and write (he's a PhD candidate) which is his passion. I think it's a pretty cushy job; he gets to work from home and we have great healthcare. You can't do that without a bachelor's to start.

Plus, college is just an important life period! I don't want my 17-18 yr. old kid to have a full time job. I want them to go to school, be exposed to new things, learn a lot, and party on the weekend. I want them to read books and figure out what they believe. What part of that doesn't seem important for a 17-21 year old?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 


> My generation grew up being told the only way you will succeed at all in this world is with a degree. Most of the kids I know who have their degrees now are pretty pissed off that they have a piece of paper, no awesome job to show for it and *are now having to pay back student loans* that will take them possibly decades to pay off. College is really not the be all end all of your life.


Agreed. A college degree isn't a guarantee of anything. Some people get into MASSIVE debt with no real plan. Getting a degree just so you can say you have a degree in hopes that someone will pay you a little more and give you dental insurance is a HUGE financial gamble.

I think it's a false sense of security for many parents and teens. Go to college (at any cost), behave and finish, and then everything will be easy.

But it's not true. It may be a little easier, it may open some doors, but it's not like when you finish they hand you the keys to the city.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I ended up skipping my senior year of high school & going to a state university. I'm not sure that was the best place for me but that was the only place that would accept me without a HS diploma. The intent was to transfer after my freshman year but that never happened. It's just as well, because somehow I got through college in one piece, and I'm glad at least that I don't have HUGE school loans like I would have if I'd gone elsewhere... OK I'm totally going off on a tangent here...


Yeah, part of the reason that my DD goes to a small private alternative school is because she is successful there. I don't know that she ever would have graduated from a traditional school. It makes planning more complicated -- she's successful in some situations, but not at all in others.

And I don't think the student loans issue is a tangent. If the reason we are all supposed to hope our kids go to college is even partly so they have more money, considering how much of that salary and for how many years will be going to payments is important.

I'm in my 40's, and back in the day, getting out with $10,000 in debt was considered a huge amount. Now, that's nothing.

DH and I really want our kids to get out of college without debt. It's a goal.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> LotM - i recommend doing some reading on culinary programs. Most are not worth the money, and the experience can be gained w an apprenticeship. I know one of the local culinary (2yr) schools, which is a national name has become a laughing stock. Nobody local will touch a recent graduate anymore. This blog http://eggbeater.typepad.com/ has some good info on learning on the job.


Thanks for the link! I've been reading up, but am always happy to find more information. This isn't an area we didn't know anything about -- we are more the university types. She's already started her own cake decorating business, and when she is a little older we plan to arrange for her to work as an intern in a nice bakery or resort. We want to seek out guidance from people who know the field. It does seem like some culinary schools are more about a hobby program for housewives then really being a trade school.

But since she doesn't desire college, at least at this point, we would love for her to have the experience of picking a great school and going away to it. To have it as a coming of age experience.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AllisonR*
> 
> Regarding only Julliard; I'd advise her to apply to at least two other schools, as a backup plan. She can always go to the backup plan and apply again to Julliard the following year. Or in reverse: go to Julliard, decide to switch majors and switch schools. That year will NOT be a waste of education, or of life experience. She will not know if it is possible unless she tries. *And if she doesn't try, she will ALWAYS wonder. ALWAYS. And sometimes we have to let them try, even if we are afraid they will get horribly hurt. Better to be hurt, then always be wondering something like that.* And sometimes they surprise us, and reach farther than we could imagine. I have a family friend who went there and is now a conductor in switzerland. Just saying, you never know.


I totally agree. I think that she should go for it. So much better to find out now than to always wonder. And if she doesn't get in, that's between her and school. If she does get in, it may mean that she really is good enough to make a living with music. It's such a selective program, if they believe in her, then I think that you can too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> The fact is that not just I, but much of the world, considers a college education of any sort to be valuable. Trying to argue that the fact doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.


Agreed -- this is just a true statement -- many people see a value in any degree.

I don't think that all college/university experiences are the same. Just reading through the post here and the different experiences people have had -- for some it is a defining point in their life, for some a total bust. For some it leads to meaningful work, for others it dead ends at Starbucks.

I want my kids to have the power to make REAL choices about their lives. I want them to have dreams and live with passion. College can be part of that, or not. It's their life, not mine.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> My post you commented on *doesn't* necessarily apply to you. It applies to my family. There is no comment that could be "offensive" because I was talking about MY daughter, not anyone else's in regards to the expectation to go to college.
> 
> ...


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bokonon*
> In this job market, where even those with advanced degrees are having trouble finding jobs, a degree is not a waste.


Eh...I don't know. Is it worse to be unemployed and debt-free, or unemployed with tons of student loan debt?

My first degree (psych) was an expensive waste and has done nothing for me. I really regret getting it.


----------



## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Eh...I don't know. Is it worse to be unemployed and debt-free, or unemployed with tons of student loan debt?
> 
> My first degree (psych) was an expensive waste and has done nothing for me. I really regret getting it.


Unemployment doesn't last forever, and neither do student loans. I paid off my student loans years ago. Then again, because of my degree and my husband's, our household income was over 6 figures by age 25.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MJB*
> 
> Plus, college is just an important life period! I don't want my 17-18 yr. old kid to have a full time job. I want them to go to school, be exposed to new things, learn a lot, and party on the weekend. I want them to read books and figure out what they believe. What part of that doesn't seem important for a 17-21 year old?


When I was 18, 19, etc., I had a full-time job. I also read books, figured out what I believe, was exposed to new things, and learned a lot, and partied on the weekend. What does any of that have to do with whether or not a person goes through university and/or gets a degree? (FWIW, at almost 43, I'm still doing most of those things, but not the partying on the weekend part.) Where do people get the idea that reading, being exposed to new things and learning - let alone partying! - only happen at school?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Is he a full professor or an instructor? Academia is a whole other animal than any other career path. Just as medicine is. When did you become ABD? Congrats on passing your exams!


he is just an instructor who lives in a cool house. yup he just wants to be a community college proff at our college. doesnt want to work at the local univ due to politics, though he has been trying for jobs all over the country. he is an authority in his field .... he is pretty amazing for being the usual quiet shy man he is. hope he finds a pleasing position that will allow him to continue with his research.

velochic i have always had a Bachelors in English from Asia. Its now just trying to get a copy of my transcript so that i can directly get into the Ph D program - as a non traditional student i hope i can. Local univs due to budget cuts wont let me get into a bachelors anymore. so basically i am taking classes like stats and spanish while i wait for my transcript. my education here has been just a huge 'f***up' because of wrong guidance from cousillors and my lack of knowledge of the edu system here.

see here's my thing about a job. probably my own thing. i dont want dd to just get a career. i want her to have a vocation. its the reason i myself am back at school.

i dont like the value that's put on education. my ex who didnt even graduate from hs is far more well read than my previous coworkers who got masters. yet in society ex is seen as less valuable because he doesnt have degrees to show that his own knowledge is at a masters level. thankfully he self taught himself his work so he is his own master. most are looking at education as a ticket to get someplace that they dont really care about.

i could go find a soul sucking job with my degree. actually i did have it. but i could not deal with it anymore.

i hope at 17 dd gets a job, joins the peace corps or travels the world. IF she doesnt know what she wants to do. i want her to start her own business at 17, fail and then figure out. i want her to work at fixing houses or cars so she knows the basics (knowledge i dont have).


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> When I was 18, 19, etc., I had a full-time job. I also read books, figured out what I believe, was exposed to new things, and learned a lot, and partied on the weekend. What does any of that have to do with whether or not a person goes through university and/or gets a degree? (FWIW, at almost 43, I'm still doing most of those things, but not the partying on the weekend part.) Where do people get the idea that reading, being exposed to new things and learning - let alone partying! - only happen at school?


Because many high school graduates with that kind of time and freedom aren't necessarily spending their free time reading Sartre and exploring intellectual pursuits. Having people one's own age to share that experience with and having guidance from academia isn't worthless.


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## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

We have already told our children that we will pay only for tuition at a public college, and not for room and board-- they can live at home. We have a number of good public campuses within commuting distance of our house. I'll encourage them to major in something useful and explain to them about the expense and the need to have realistic job/ earning goals, but I know there is no forcing it. We won't refuse to pay for a frivolous major as long as they keep up a good gpa but we will refuse to pay for private tuition or room/ board. Private tuition is the real waste IMO-- I have attended both private and public colleges, other than a prettier campus there was not much difference.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> i hope at 17 dd gets a job, joins the peace corps or travels the world. IF she doesnt know what she wants to do. i want her to start her own business at 17, fail and then figure out. i want her to work at fixing houses or cars so she knows the basics (knowledge i dont have).


Hate to say it, but the Peace Corps is just another example of the employer who only values you if you have a degree.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Exactly - the Peace Corp really stresses at least a bachelor's degree.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bokonon*
> Unemployment doesn't last forever, and neither do student loans. I paid off my student loans years ago. Then again, because of my degree and my husband's, our household income was over 6 figures by age 25.


Well, that's close to my point. Because my degree and my husband's, our *debt* is well over 6 figures and our *income* is...er.....not. Based on what I can expect to make with my degree and the joy of accruing interest, my student loans *might* actually last forever. Or, rather, the would if I wasn't going back to school to get a degree that will actually be useful and (ideally) allow me to pay off the loans from my first degree.

None of which is meant to imply that college is bad, or a waste- just that if you're going to spend a massive amount of money on it, you should have some general plan on how exactly you're going to pay it back, and in this day and age the idea that any degree is a ticket to sufficient income to allow you to pay for it is not accurate. I went into college with the vague idea that student loans were "good debt" and "an investment"; the reality is that the debt involved in going to college limited my life options far more than the degree I got expanded them.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Objectively, how good is your daughter, and how many hours a day is she practicing and performing? What she's looking at requires a lot of hours in a practice room and she will only make it if she is a phenomenal player. Not just good or outstanding, she had better be able to blow them away IF she gets an audition.

I recall a recent post in which you didn't want to take her to perform a couple hours away. That doesn't fly with a kid who wants to go to Juilliard. She needs to be performing pretty much all the time, and practicing the rest. If she's not prepared to be in a windowless room practicing for 5-6 hours a day, she will want to rethink this. Well over half the students who started looking at a music performance degree when I did washed out the first year. Some of them transfered to a school to chase down a music education degree. Most of us ran screaming from the practice room at the end of the term- quite literally. You have to know what you are getting into when you head down that path. Ultimately, I loved it, but I also had the sense to double major and graduated with a degree in music performance and a degree in public health education. It meant taking over 20 credits a semester and getting special permission to do so, but I came out with the ability to work when some of my peers couldn't get a gig.

My performing career took a back seat to parenting. I only play a few gigs now, but when I was playing regularly, I was doing just fine financially. When my kids are older I will head back that way and try to return to what I love to do.

My husband has a degree in computer science, and never really used it. He does have a career, but it is unrelated to his degree and after over 10 years in that field, he earns a very good living. He would have the job he does with or without the degree.

Many major universities are looking favorably on kids who choose a gap year (or more) because they find them to be more focused on their degree.


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## K1329 (Apr 6, 2009)

I keep reading about debt being a factor in choosing to skip college - a degree does not necessarily equate to large amounts of debt. I work at a top 50 university (read expensive) and our average student indebtedness at graduation is 16,000.00. When I graduated, I was debt free. Scholarships, grants and other programs are available. For my kids, should they choose college (and i hope they do), I hope to help them find ways to graduate low debt/debt free. Too many students unnecessarily maximize their loan amounts, IMO.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

When I saw OP's thread initially, I knew it would become a multi-page thread of personal, subjective experiences for and against the idea of a college education. I think the real question should not be "what is the point of college" but "what is the goal/what is the focus?"

I think that it doesn't do anyone any good to either say that college is a waste or that it is a ticket to future income, because neither one is absolutely true for everyone. Reasons that people go to college:

1. to obtain a certain degree in a specialized field (think science, medicine, law, accounting, business, etc.) (most of these are professional degrees that can't be learned through self-study - many are licensed positions that require a certain educational foundation);

2. to pursue one's passion (any of the above plus the creative fields and other specialized areas of interest (like history, psychology) (many of these fields offer extensive post graduate programs, which not only offer additional time to study one's pursuit, but to also qualify one for better employment afterward in teaching, museums, scientific studies; etc.);

3. to get a job, any job that pays better than Walmart (this is the riskiest because it assumes that a college degree will somehow land you in management; these are the kind of positions in corporate America - the positions where, in my opinion, often provide the least flexibility in life and require complete dedication to the "man"). That subject is a whole other thread but it is how I feel about general education in this country (can't speak for other countries like Canada and whatnot, but corporations are the end-all here and it is a sort of slavery that people are primed for from cradle to college). Forgive me for interjecting my intense political position on the matter!

5. some people just like to learn, and while this may fall to the extreme privileged in this society, it is not a new one.

6. some people go to college to catch the ultimate mate (not a new idea either, since many young women went to college in the old days to better prepare themselves in the lovely skills of dancing, language, etc.). Not dissing it, just a reality in the past and not a stretch now.

7. parental expectation/societal expectation: this works in the long term if one has a passion/focus. If not, it can be a prison, especially post-college and later in life. Prime example: my grandparents expected my dad to go into a medical field. He became a dentist. He was a miserable human being for 40 years. Me and my siblings were at the butt end of his misery.

8. other stuff I can't think of.

A degree in music can be as satisfying and rewarding (both intellectually and financially) as a degree in medicine or no degree at all. What is the kid's passion/focus? How can it be realized? How can you best prepare them for the difficulties that may encounter as a result of their decisions?


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Exactly. I mean..she is good and she enjoys it. But as far as I can tell, when she does well in music, people are so great to her. They tell her how talented she is and how great she does. But when she does well in math and science, which she does very well in, there is never positive feedback from anyone except me and dh. All her kudos come from how she does in music. Maybe she would get in to Julliard, but I think it would be a long shot. Plus, I do thinking she does not LOVE music as much as she says she does. She does enjoy it and it is a tension reliever, but I think she just loves the attention she gets over her music. Unfortunately, we seem to be surrounded by people who do not value someone being brainy and in to thinks like books, math, science, etc, but will fall all over a dance recital or playing music. She gets a lot of attention for it from certain relatives who ignore her the rest of the time (like grandparents, she does not have a single grandparent who seems to notice her, until she plays her music and then they make a big deal of it).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I just wanted to add with a cousin who recently graduated from Julliard (well over a year go but semi-recent)...
> 
> Julliard is NOT the kind of school where you just apply and that is that. Unless you are a prodigy in some way the odds of being accepted are slim. For my cousin she was specifically asked to attend and she accepted. They can be really picky and my cousin said you basically either know someone who knows someone, they ask you or you apply. The odds of anyone getting in just by applying is pretty slim, they only take a very small number of straight applicants each year. If your DD is good at music that is nice but that probably doesn't translate into talented enough to attend Julliard...Don't want to be mean that is just the way it is...


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Sorry OP, I couldn't quote your post no. 61 above, but here's my perspective:

Maybe it is true that some people don't value math and science, but I think it is less an issue of value it and more an issue of being able to relate to music and art and the deep emotional response that music and art elicits in people. There is something about music and art that evokes a response in all of us, even if we are not musicians or artists ourselves. It is something that humans respond to and feel compelled to comment on. Math and science is more abstract, it does not elicit an emotion within us, unless of course, we are excited about the subject itself.

Most people would rather sit through and comment on a mediocre performance of Fur Elise than read and comment on an abstract about, let's say, plant life in the Paleolithic era. All of us respond to music and art in some way. It is immediate and satisfying. It is something that we all feel qualified to critique. I highly value math and science and the roles they play in our society. Sometimes I wish that I was interested in them. However, my eyes totally glaze over when people delve into discussions about math and science. It is not that I don't value it; I just can't relate.

Has your DD ever gone to a camp or participated with professionals in the scientific community? I think it would make a huge difference to get positive feedback from actual professionals. It makes a big difference to be around people who are passionate about what they do. Right now she may be good at science and math, but if she does not get positive feedback (as in mentoring or field experience) than I don't blame her for gravitating toward experiences that give her a sense of recognition and accomplishment. If possible, I would try to expose her to as much as possible now. If she still doesn't like it, at least she tasted it.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

My parents don't understand diddly-squat about math and science, but they still praised me for aptitude I showed in it... I think that it's true that more people respond to the arts but it also sounds like some of the family members are not paying too much attention to the child's other talents. Which is unfortunate, I think.

I agree, if she had an opportunity to use these talents in another setting, it could be really helpful for her. I did a camp or two and a couple of externships--gave me a bit of a view outside the classroom.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> My parents don't understand diddly-squat about math and science, but they still praised me for aptitude I showed in it... I think that it's true that more people respond to the arts but it also sounds like some of the family members are not paying too much attention to the child's other talents. Which is unfortunate, I think.
> 
> I agree, if she had an opportunity to use these talents in another setting, it could be really helpful for her. I did a camp or two and a couple of externships--gave me a bit of a view outside the classroom.


True, but how do you praise other talents (specifically math and science)? You can brag to other people about the top grades that your grandchild gets, but how does extended family reinforce high aptitude in those interests? You can keep saying over and over: you're so smart, I can't believe how good you are in science, etc., but unless you are in the lab or have some kind of basic understanding of what the child is doing, then it is very hard to honestly critique and recognize what the other person is doing. I'm not talking about parents here, but extended family. I don't have enough information from OP to understand what is really going on, but from a general standpoint, I understand that people tend to have a hard time expressing themselves regarding things that aren't on their radar. Perhaps OP's extended family are the most shallow people alive, or perhaps they just don't get it, or maybe they know their grandchild is smart but it is much easier for them to express praise for musical talents. Point being, other people aren't responsible for putting the OP's child out into society. Other people might have peripheral influence, but the OP and her spouse ultimately must find a way to nurture and encourage the child to pursue the thing that will be most beneficial for her in her adult life. But then again, the OP's daughter may eventually find her own way...in a way that is not on the radar now. Isn't that what happens to a lot of us?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'll start with a disclaimer: I'm a university professor, so personally, I highly value college education. Furthermore, I have a 'useless' BA (German). I started off in a 'useful' degree track (biomedical engineering) and switched majors twice -- once to biology (pre-med) and once to German. I wasn't truly happy until I found German linguistics. So even if your child starts off in a practical field, they might not stay there. However, I teach at a 'non-traditional' university. Many of our students have tried other career paths and are coming back for the 4 year degree because they can't get where they want without it. And some are coming back for the sheer love of learning. I really like teaching this type of student because they're motivated and really interesting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> Do you think I should just not worry about it and if music is her passion, tell her to go for it?


A quick answer to your question: Yes. This was my parents' philosophy and it worked well. The way my mom framed it was "You could be pursuing your passion and looking for a job that meets your passion, or you could be competing for a job in accounting against people who actually want to be accountants. Which would you rather do?" I have a brother in law who is a master carpenter (his work is brilliant) who found his passion when on a service project for college. He went to help restore old houses for low income people and found a passion for carpentry. He never got a 4 year degree and never missed it. A good friend of mine wanted to be a pilot, but her parents wouldn't pay for her to go to school someplace where she could pursue that. So, she ended up being miserable for 2 years at another school and then transferring and paying for it on her own. However, it took her 10 years to get enough flying time to become a commercial pilot (and by that time the bottom had fallen out of the airline industry) and she was never able to pursue her dream. I'm still mad at her parents for that!

Personally, I'd rather have my children puruse their dream and fail than to not try.

Now on to the more abstract debate:

First-- we need to distinguish several types of education. A general liberal arts education, a professional degree (such as education, engineering or music school) and trade school (plumbing, mechanic, cooking school). The value of a general liberal arts education is there, but it's sometimes hard to pinpoint. Ideally, a good liberal arts education will teach you to think well and critically, to write well, and how to learn new information. It should, ideally, teach you how to be more than just an employee, but to seek out good answers, think about what you're asked to do and to think creatively. Alas, not all institutions achieve this, especially in a day of a growing sense of entitlement among students (and their parents -- I've had parents contact me because their student got a bad grade!).

A general liberal arts education is one that someone can achieve on their own through deep reading, thinking and talking to others. It's rare, but it can be done. (Abraham Lincoln was self educated as were many great women thinkers because they didn't have access to higher education.)

I think a lot of HR departments use the 4 year degree as a (not very effective) screening tool. I'd just as soon see them give a test of general knowledge and writing, but the truth of the matter is that it's easier to accept someone else's judgment that this person can write and think.

Professional degrees such as engineering or business prepare you to work in a specific field. They're not as broad as a liberal arts degree, but there's more of a sense of what you'll do when you're done. The 'problem' is that if you end up not wanting to do that thing, then what? I think that a lot of students who don't know what they want to do end up in a professional degree and don't get much out of it (if you hate marketing and you're stuck in an business degree, what are you learning?) But they stay because they think it'll earn them money. Those are the students I worry about the most, because I find them jaded and disinterested.

Finally, there are the trades. I really wish that a lot of students who aren't academically inclined but are good with their hands and quick with their minds would consider the trades. There's a difference between getting a $12 an hour job in construction that won't go much of any place and becoming a skilled carpenter or mechanic. There are good stable jobs around for people in the trades, if they've got training and persistence. A college degree isn't the only path to a stable income. While I've seen a lot of non-traditional students come back to college and succeed, I've also seen some students who I know could succeed in other environtments and are really taking a blow to their self-esteem by being in college. They're not stupid. They're just not academic. But there's no way that I, as a professor, can look at them and say "have you considered becoming an electrician?"

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> Dh will make sure our children get some kind of post-highschool education. That is an unquestioned mandate in our house. But it will probably look very different than what most people think of when they think "college". Hopefully in 10 or so years as they get to that age, the opportunities for alternative and distance learning will be much greater.


That, I think, is a sound way to look at it. They need post-highschool education. They may or may not need college. Given who my children are, college is the most likely path for them. Let's face it, my 6 year old who has earnest discussions about whether it's better to learn what a noun is before you learn what an adjective is, or vice versa, is probably not going to be happy in a trade. But you never know.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.


She's a high school freshman or sophomore, right? This isn't an age group known for realistic plans.







I take everything a 15 year old says with a grain of salt. Or maybe a shaker of salt.

My response to this would be "Julliard would be really cool! What about Julliard do you think you'd like?" At another time I'd raise the question "Do any other schools have those characteristics?" If I remember correctly, this is also the child who is deeply unhappy in her current school. I wouldn't push the issue too much. Let her dream. Look up some music schools together. Plan a trip to make a few college visits in her junior year. Have her talk to the people who teach her music and performers that she's around. Let THEM tell her that Julliard is a stretch!

Edited to remove random quotes


----------



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree.

I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.


----------



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

She is in EPGY and can go to their camp. They have math and science with it. But she wants to go to Interlochen. We can afford to send her to one, it would be unreasonable to send her to both. I have gotten flyers from other programs through other state programs but do not know much about them. I maybe should look in to them more. (the state stuff is science and math and engineering) so it is less expensive. Since she really wants to go to Interlochen, I would feel bad about forcing the science camp on her, but I think she would love the science camp and it would open her mind to other possibilities. What should I do?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Sorry OP, I couldn't quote your post no. 61 above, but here's my perspective:
> 
> ...


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree.
> 
> I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. *I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.*


Here's the link to Juilliard's schedule of fees for the 2010/2011 academic year:

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/tuition.php

Compare/contrast with other music schools (most probably show their schedules of fees online).

Here's some basic info providing that some scholarships are offered at Juilliard based on need and merit:

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/financial-aid/scholarships.php


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lookatreestar*
> 
> yup, my dh is a chef self taught and this is the best way in his opinion. it was a running joke at his old job that when they would get a newbie from the culinary school- they'd give them 2 weeks before they quit. it is a lot of hard work you don't just skip to being a food network star. the food biz is something you need to really enjoy- its tough.


I'm a self taught software engineer and I'm awfully glad that I make a six figure salary and have no student loans. The whole third level education system in the US is one of the biggest rackets going.

ETA: Has she mentioned how she plans to support herself post-college? Any ideas about what she might actually do to generate enough income to survive?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bokonon*
> 
> Exactly - the Peace Corp really stresses at least a bachelor's degree.


One of my friends with a BA was turned down by the Peace Core. They want people with degrees who know how to do things they need done -- engineers, nurses, public health. They don't have much use for liberal arts folks who just need an excuse to travel.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *K1329*
> 
> I keep reading about debt being a factor in choosing to skip college - a degree does not necessarily equate to large amounts of debt. I work at a top 50 university (read expensive) and our average student indebtedness at graduation is 16,000.00. When I graduated, I was debt free. Scholarships, grants and other programs are available. For my kids, should they choose college (and i hope they do), I hope to help them find ways to graduate low debt/debt free. Too many students unnecessarily maximize their loan amounts, IMO.


I've brought up debt several times and I think it is a consideration. To me, it's not a reason to SKIP college, it's a reason to look at the numbers and make a real plan, which could include scholarships, community college, work study, etc.

We don't have the money to give each kid 50K a year to go find themselves. We just don't. I don't see saddling a 22 year old with 200,000 in debt as good parenting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. *If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships.* But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and *she came back saying she could not find any*, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.


I'm starting to wonder if this has anything at all to do with college. I wonder what the real problem is.

Any kid smart enough for a national merit scholarship is smart enough to use goggle to find out about expenses of schools and scholarships.

What is really going on with her? Is she otherwise happy and easy to get along with? Does she often just want to shot herself in the foot?

I'm all for following dreams, but if a kid can get a full ride to a state U to major in whatever they want, they are kind of fool to turn it down without a very solid alternative.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I went through a phase close to graduating where I insisted I was NOT going to college. It was just all the pressure and I didn't know why the hell I had to go or what I was going to do there when I did go...She might be feeling unsure in general. A lot of kids just feel pressured to go SOMEWHERE, anywhere at all because that is "what you do"...Probably part of the reason I ended up just dropping out due to disinterest, I had no idea what I was doing there short of meeting DH and having a great time with friends. I didn't even have to pay for it. My grandparents paid what the scholarships I got didn't cover. I was very lucky not to have ANY debt from it but I still felt lost there.

So many kids are nervous about, just ask her if there is other stuff going on. She might just be panicking about it in general and trying to pass it off as something else because the reality is very stressful to her.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Here's the link to Juilliard's schedule of fees for the 2010/2011 academic year:
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree.
> 
> I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.


If your dd is accepted to Juilliard she will get a scholarship. That's a guarantee. There are no "filler" students at Juilliard, meaning they don't pad their student body with less talented students for money. In fact, just a few years ago, Juilliard was considering giving free tuition to all it's students. I don't think that has happened, however. Now, as far as being accepted...she will need to submit a recording to be prescreened, and then will be granted an audition based on the recording. If she gets past the first level, then she'll need to audition in person. It is a very competitive music school. Most of the students there are in the high school training program, but they do accept kids they've never met before. You do not need to know someone to get in, it's pretty much based on talent. Also, if she's accepted, she will have a music career, unless something extreme happens. She should also look at other schools, however. She should apply to Manhattan School of Music, New England Conservatory, Northwestern University, Indiana University, The Cleveland School of Music, Oberlin and Rice. Those are all excellent schools and have very good string programs.
The truth is that music is a tough, tough road. Almost all my friends and family members are musicians. My brother, a professional violinist, practices at least 6 hours a day, plus rehearsals and concerts. Auditioning is tiring, and performing is incredibly nerve racking. I think people would be blown away if they knew what the working environment is like for us! At a certain level conductors expect perfection. People get screamed and humiliated during rehearsals. Heck a few weeks ago a guy I was doing a gig with wasn't pulling his weight and got fired in the middle of a rehearsal. On the other hand, I cant imagine doing anything else. I've been doing this my whole life. I've never seriously considered a different career. Once a person wants to be a musician it's really hard to convince them otherwise. My mom is an opera singer, so she had the luxury of understanding the business when we were applying to college. Since you aren't a musician yourself, you'll need to rely on your daughter's teacher. Talk to him or her and get an assessment of your DDs potential. If her teacher thinks she has a shot at it, I would support her fully.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, if the alternative to music is science, you might want to consider that a BA in science is not necessarily going to land a particularly lucrative job either. From my short, somewhat uninformed carreer in biology, I found that without a masters or docorate you just didn't make much money. Not that money is everything - it surely isn't. I did feel a bit gypped, though, when I finished my degree with high honors, landed a good job, and made much less than what my friends made in business or social work.

Tjej


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> Well, if the alternative to music is science, you might want to consider that a BA in science is not necessarily going to land a particularly lucrative job either. From my short, somewhat uninformed carreer in biology, I found that without a masters or docorate you just didn't make much money. Not that money is everything - it surely isn't. I did feel a bit gypped, though, when I finished my degree with high honors, landed a good job, and made much less than what my friends made in business or social work.
> 
> Tjej


This. I climbed to the MA level of pay for my career (even though I don't have the degree, it is # of units) and I made far less than many of my friends without degrees. I was a teacher. I live in Silicon Valley. I am literally surrounded by geeks. A rather high percentage do not have college degrees. Not 50%, but probably more than 35%. I do not see how me going off and earning my degree (even though it was the only thing that allowed me to get the specific job I wanted) was the key to me making more money. Around here being obsessed with programming will make you money. My daughter is going to turn 3 this month. We already talk to her about the concepts behind programming. We want her to be able to make that jump early. I think that is a lot more important for future financial success in this world.


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## rachieface (Mar 26, 2010)

I had an amazing four years at college. I learned so much about life, met my husband and some of my best friends, and got a B.A. It was a small religious school and I got a degree in Women's Studies (which many people would consider one of those fluff degrees) before almost immediately becoming a mostly SAHM. But I have a degree, and for that I am so grateful! I have amazing memories and friends that I will forever love, and for that I am so grateful. My husband has a decent paying job, because he has a degree. His job has absolutely NOTHING to do with his degree (International Relations), but they just wanted someone with a B.A. I am pro-college. I won't force my kids to go, and I think there is value in waiting a few years (and earning money!) before college. But my awesome college experience is something that I would love my kids to share.

Also, my experience is different because thanks to hard work, my parents, and mostly the school I chose, I have no student debt. Neither does my husband. It is possible.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> If your dd is accepted to Juilliard she will get a scholarship. That's a guarantee. There are no "filler" students at Juilliard, meaning they don't pad their student body with less talented students for money. In fact, just a few years ago, Juilliard was considering giving free tuition to all it's students. I don't think that has happened, however. Now, as far as being accepted...she will need to submit a recording to be prescreened, and then will be granted an audition based on the recording. If she gets past the first level, then she'll need to audition in person. It is a very competitive music school. Most of the students there are in the high school training program, but they do accept kids they've never met before. You do not need to know someone to get in, it's pretty much based on talent. Also, if she's accepted, she will have a music career, unless something extreme happens. She should also look at other schools, however. She should apply to Manhattan School of Music, New England Conservatory, Northwestern University, Indiana University, The Cleveland School of Music, Oberlin and Rice. Those are all excellent schools and have very good string programs.
> The truth is that music is a tough, tough road. Almost all my friends and family members are musicians. My brother, a professional violinist, practices at least 6 hours a day, plus rehearsals and concerts. Auditioning is tiring, and performing is incredibly nerve racking. I think people would be blown away if they knew what the working environment is like for us! At a certain level conductors expect perfection. People get screamed and humiliated during rehearsals. Heck a few weeks ago a guy I was doing a gig with wasn't pulling his weight and got fired in the middle of a rehearsal. On the other hand, I cant imagine doing anything else. I've been doing this my whole life. I've never seriously considered a different career. Once a person wants to be a musician it's really hard to convince them otherwise. My mom is an opera singer, so she had the luxury of understanding the business when we were applying to college. Since you aren't a musician yourself, you'll need to rely on your daughter's teacher. Talk to him or her and get an assessment of your DDs potential. If her teacher thinks she has a shot at it, I would support her fully.


All of this. I was offered auditions because had private lessons and fabulous performance opportunities from 7th grade on- I was already playing with a School of Music before I headed off to college, and I had a number of recordings. Any place I auditioned and was accepted made it very clear that there would be a scholarship if necessary (I did have financial need as well.) Frankly, if someone has that level of talent, they will not have many, if any, outstanding loans. In my case, I am not a string player and the level of competition- while still stiff, is not quite as cutthroat.

For those of us who are musicians, sometimes looking at another career path just isn't an option. We are driven to perform, and miserable as the rehearsals can be (imagine 6 hours in a practice room for weeks on end perfecting this http://www.hornexcerpts.org/excerpt_pages/wagnerSLC/wagnerSLC_1.html ) we wouldn't know how to live our lives without it. When I wasn't able to perform for a while- I dreamed every night of it, it was so deeply a part of myself, that setting it aside was not, and never will be, an option. If this is where your daughter is- please support her completely in this choice, because it may not be a choice as much as it is a passion and a drive and a need, and she may not be able to shelve it for a more 'stable' job.

The first step though, is assessing her talent, and you will want to talk with a couple professionals about that.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

No, she is not. I am considering taking her to a psychologist because she has been having big issues. I think it might still be stemming from last year. She attended a public school (she is in public now, but it was a different school last year) and was stalked and sexually harassed and threatened by a boy. Turned out, in Texas, kids in school have no legal rights. Short of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for lawyers, there was nothing we could do. The boy got away with it and we had to leave the school for her protection. Ever since, she has been cranky and difficult to handle. Plus, in the birth family, there is a history of bipolar disorder. So I am really wonder what is going on and considering sending her to a psychologist. It is just that from our experience, there are year long waiting lists for psychologists so it is going to be a while before she can even get an initial appointment.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> One of my friends with a BA was turned down by the Peace Core. They want people with degrees who know how to do things they need done -- engineers, nurses, public health. They don't have much use for liberal arts folks who just need an excuse to travel.
> 
> ...


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> No, she is not. I am considering taking her to a psychologist because she has been having big issues. I think it might still be stemming from last year. She attended a public school (she is in public now, but it was a different school last year) and was stalked and sexually harassed and threatened by a boy. Turned out, in Texas, kids in school have no legal rights. Short of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for lawyers, there was nothing we could do. The boy got away with it and we had to leave the school for her protection. Ever since, she has been cranky and difficult to handle. Plus, in the birth family, there is a history of bipolar disorder. So I am really wonder what is going on and considering sending her to a psychologist. It is just that from our experience, there are year long waiting lists for psychologists so it is going to be a while before she can even get an initial appointment.


It sounds like making an appointment should be top priority. If there is a waiting list, then you should get on one if necessary, before there is an emergency and you can't get one.

That said, I've never heard of a troubled person having difficulty getting in to see a therapist within the week. College sounds like the least of your worries. Please get her some help before she spirals out of control. I dealt with teenage depression and it could have been disastrous if my parents hadn't recognized that I needed help.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If I had a kid who got accepted to Julliard, I'd be fine with her getting a music degree because she'd have such a high level of talent that she'd be able to support herself. But I do consider college to be an investment. If I'm paying for it, I would generally want her to do a double major or something, if music were something she wanted to study. If she's paying for it, I'd still strongly encourage that, because I dont want to see her with a ton of student loan debt and no good income potential.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> She is in EPGY and can go to their camp. They have math and science with it. But she wants to go to Interlochen. We can afford to send her to one, it would be unreasonable to send her to both. I have gotten flyers from other programs through other state programs but do not know much about them. I maybe should look in to them more. (the state stuff is science and math and engineering) so it is less expensive. Since she really wants to go to Interlochen, I would feel bad about forcing the science camp on her, but I think she would love the science camp and it would open her mind to other possibilities. What should I do?


Let her go to music camp. Please! If you can afford Interlochen and you think her mental health will be up to the stress of being away from home for that period of time, why would you withhold something from her that she passionately wants to do? If you want her to be a scientist, the fastest way to make her never want anything to do with math/science is to force her to go to a science camp.

I'm having a bit of trouble because you keep asking what you should do. She's old enough to have some say in this. What does she want to do? It is not your place to tell her she doesn't have enough talent or money to get into Julliard. At some point in the very near future, that will become clear, or if it doesn't, maybe she does have enough talent. What better way to find out than to spend a few weeks with kids who are all highly talented? It's pretty easy being a big fish in a smallish pond. If your just another fish in the pond, it helps you get perspective.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> No, she is not. I am considering taking her to a psychologist because she has been having big issues..... So I am really wonder what is going on and considering sending her to a psychologist. It is just that from our experience, there are year long waiting lists for psychologists so it is going to be a while before she can even get an initial appointment.


What about taking her to a counselor or therapist? Some one with a master's degree or PhD in psychology rather than an MD?

I'm personally a big fan of talk therapy. Meds are appropriate in some cases, but I would try talk therapy first. It shouldn't take any time at all to get her in. In my city, so many people have had to drop counseling because of the economy that most therapist have empty slots.

If I were you, I'd start making calls and ask a few questions. I'd ask what experience they have with teen girls and what their general approach is. I also ask about their religion and how they feel that effects this sort of work, but that's more of a judgment call. I've been in and out therapy forever (I'm a survivor of child abuse) and the person is really important than the credentials. One of my favorite counselors had a master's in social work. It is also my experience that if a counselor sees someone and feels that they need to get into a psychiatrist, they can make it happen really fast.

If money is part of the issue, I'd check into free or reduce fee services in your city. Because the trigger incident was sexual, she may qualify through some sort of agency that deals with survivors of crime. Some of these do not require police reports or anything like that. Many have lots of experience with young women who cannot remember what "happy" feels like. It doesn't hurt to call and ask.

I'm very sorry for what your DD is going through. I remember your post from the time this was going on.

And with everything else going on with her, I think that telling her to follow her bliss would be good advice. She deserves to be happy. From what the others are saying, if she get into Julliard, it will be paid for and she will get work afterward, so those things aren't the concerns you thought they were.

She deserves to be happy.

Peace


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## Amatullah0 (Apr 7, 2009)

I've only read about halfway through the third page, but I wanted to post now, before I lose my train of thought.

Before high school, I was always one of the brightest students in the class. By high school(way bigger school, no longer the brightest in the school, but somewhere near the top), and whenever I had the option, I took honors classes (including college level anthropology classes), AP classes, AP tests without actually taking the AP corresponding AP course, and classes at the community college which the school district paid for.

End of high school, I started to realize that there was no point in wasting all of my energy in school. I stopped doing the work in the classes that handed out busywork, or other required classes that I wasn't at all interested in. I didn't bother applying to any colleges, I didn't really WANT to go to college. I didn't WANT a career. I was planning on going, just because I was expected to, but I would have rather been a SAHW/M. So, I got married after graduating, and took a couple more semesters at the community college before deciding I was done with school. I was interested in psych, and anthro, and language, but I didn't have any need for a degree, since I wasn't planning to work, and wasn't really interested in working in those fields. After having my son, I realized that I wanted to work with pregnant women, I wanted to work as a midwife. So, now, with a 2-year old, I am back in school, at the same community college, and I don't regret not going to school pre-kids, because I really didn't know what I wanted to do, and it would have been a huge waste of money. For me, it's way better than spending excessive amounts of money(and energy) to figure out what you want to "do with your life."

I'm also grateful that I WILL NOT take on debt to go to school (and thus, have none).

I'll add in that I thought I was good at music, and loved it, and my parent's thought I rocked







oh, how blind they were, I was constantly getting yelled at by teachers for making mistakes. There was a point though, where I thought I could get into Julliard. Then there were other points where I wanted to be a doctor, chemist, teacher, psychologist, field anthropologist, and what have you.

DH, on the other hand, hasn't been able to finish college yet, and he's having trouble passing his classes. He is working full time at a stressful low-ish income job. I feel bad for him, and I'm seriously considering finishing school as fast as I can, and getting a job so I can support the family, and DH can stay home with DS. DH is trying to leave his current job, but is having trouble finding another job, because he doesn't have a degree. Most jobs out there do want a degree.

and, re: scholarships, I have seen some scholarships out there for kids as young as 8, so don't wait to look for them. Most scholarships start around middle/high school, but even then, when I was in high school, looking for scholarships as a junior, there were so many scholarships that I wasn't eligible for..... because I was too old!

eta: (finished reading) It would really suck to be sent to a camp that you didn't want to go to. I've gone to summer camps that I DID want to go to, only to find out that I really didn't want to be there, and spend an entire week miserable. I could only imagine what it would be like to go to a camp that you DIDN'T want to be at. If you want to try to broaden her horizons, why not try classes of some sort(through a community center, school district, or community college?), or day camps?

re: mental health: I'm really sorry you're all going through this (((hugs))) I agree with pps on finding a good counselor (and yes, personality IS everything) they usually have no problems fitting you in to see someone "more qualified" if you need to. Another option would be going to the emergency room if you're having an urgency -- if you absolutely can't get in to see a therapist on your own, know that this is an option. Also, what about her school counselor? Usually they are there not only for academic issues, but for whatever else the student needs to talk about too.


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## Tear78 (Nov 28, 2008)

I only read the first page of posts, but I wanted to jump in and say that I have a Bachelor of Music and I am now a regular education teacher. I reached a point after graduating where I seriously considered whether I wanted a musician's lifestyle and I realized the answer was no. HOWEVER...my bachelor's degree opened many opportunities for me, and in fact made me interesting and marketable to employers. Plus, getting a music degree requires studies in music theory (VERY math-based) and musicians often have strengths in science and math as well. When I realized that I wanted to be a teacher, I did have to go get my Master's degree in order to get certified, but so would anybody who wanted to switch fields after college. And who really knows what they want with their life in college? My music degree is probably what got me interviews as a teacher, and believe me, it's tough to get a job as a teacher. If you support her in what she loves, she will arrive at her decisions on her own...at least that's what happened with me. Good luck!


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## Mommel (Apr 16, 2010)

Here's my experience from when I was a kid in that position, FWIW...

I wanted to major in Fine Art, but I was also really good at Math and numbers... my Dad was really upset that I didn't pursue Math and went for Art instead. He made a big deal about it and I put my foot down and rebelled, declaring Fine Art my major. I took a few math classes and REALLY liked them, even considered switching my major, but thought since I had made such a big deal out of standing up to my Dad, I'd better stick to my guns and keep at it with Art rather than admit he was wrong. I was a really stubborn kid and eventually ended up dropping out because I was so conflicted, despite making good grades. I ended up getting a job as a customer service rep for a small loan company, and one job after another ended up in financial analysis, getting laid off, not being able to compete in my field without a degree, and finally going back to school for Economics... where I am now: 38 years old, baby on the way and halfway through my BS in Econ.

My thoughts: Don't make a big deal of it, encourage her to go to a university that has a wide range of academics (possibly one that has a wide variety of degree requirements so she's exposed to a bunch of different potential majors) and to pursue her passion... whatever it is.


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## physmom (Jun 15, 2009)

First off,







to the OP and your DD. I've read through the posts and I'm so sorry she had to go through that at her old school. I totally agree with counseling, I hope she can find someone that she feels comfortable with.

I also agree with the PP who said if anything at this time she needs support for whatever she might want to do. She's still really young and I'd definitely suggest NOT sending her PSAT scores anywhere quite yet. While I was a very good student, did great on the ACT etc but bombed the PSAT.







I knew well before the results came out and happily had them removed from my transcript. If she does well, include them! But it doesn't hurt to see what they are first.









One thing I would suggest is having her look into other schools too simply do to the chance that she won't get in. If you're worried about costs, why not look abroad? There are some WONDERFUL universities in Europe that are free. I know that might seem really far but it's something to consider at the very least. Also, the summer camp in music sounds like a great idea because then she'll probably get a more realistic view of where she stands talent-wise (and seems like it would help her a lot more get into Julliard).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the question of the worth of college, I'll say this. I feel one part of my role as a parent is to help DD find her passion whatever that may be. If that means she wants to go to med school we'll support her, if she wants to be a painter we'll support her, if she wants to be plumber I'll support her too (and help her to get whatever training/education she needs to do so). What I won't support is apathy and waisting good opportunities. I'd much prefer for her to delay college and mess around for a few years until she decides what she wants to do than pay for her to go to school right away and not enjoy her experience.

Granted, we have a unique situation, we live abroad so the University that we have available here is wonderful AND free.







So it seems like there isn't much to lose encouraging DD to attend. What I would love to see, though, is more support for other trades. Germany does this to SOME extent and it helps that you have things like free public health care and public universities so you can afford to take lower paying jobs. However, there program is far from perfect, one that forces 10/11 year olds to decide what they want to do with their lives is just not very realistic. Add to that the problems of discrimination and lack of advocacy from foreign and/or non-German speaking parents and you have some problems with that system too.

I have a relative who has no business ever going to college. Realistic he just does not have that sort of skill set and should've been encourage to enter some sort of trade that would have given him valuable skills. Instead he's well over middle age and has never held a long-term job. Certainly, many don't NEED college and the push for putting all students into it comes at a price. It lowers the value of a degree and forces some beyond what the realistically can do (I'm NOT saying everyone who didn't go to college/didn't finish can't hack it, that's certainly NOT the case but there are some who should be encourage to find other interests).

Personally, I loved my time at college. I got to travel the world during that time, I could choose from a wealth of classes that I enjoyed (even though some were pretty pointless in the long run







), and had a degree that allowed me to go to grad school, which led me to my current job. I work in the exact same area I wanted to since I was in HS (for better or for worse







). I have a good job that pays well and has wonderfully flexible hours. I went to a liberal arts school and it was FUN and I'd definitely give that experience to DD if she wanted it. Realistically, an IT school would've been better for my jobwise but I loved my experience and wouldn't give that up (oh, and it was entirely free... no debt, so I can't complain much!). I will say, though, that I went to school that allowed for a lot of creativity and flexibility. It sounds like some here who responded went to more rigid schools or ones that were a bad fit for their personality and I think that can play a significant role in how positive a person's experience was or not.

Oh, and like I said above. There ARE definite ways to go to college without going into debt. I'm living breathing proof of that and I studied in the US. I think I'd also encourage others to look at schools abroad and scholarships.


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## 7thDaughter (Jan 8, 2006)

For teens I think it's a good idea to give them a foundation in reality. I tell my teen that a woman who can earn a living for herself and her family is empowered to weather any storm life sends her way -- she may fall, but will land on her feet. I want my girl to know enough about reality to select a good path for herself, and be enabled to change paths when she sees that it's smart to do so. I don't want her locked in by circumstances.

"Reality" includes a thorough grounding in the cost of living, so this summer my daughter and I are going to price out the necessities of life: rentals in our city, and utilities; wardrobe expenses; cars, gas, insurance, and maintenance; college costs: tuition, food, books at in and out of state colleges; and we are going to look at career paths and what she can expect to earn with and without a degree and in a variety of different career fields. We are going to make a project out of it, so that she has the information to make good decisions her senior year.

It's not about money so much as the freedom to make wise and informed choices. A teen who wants to major in the arts should spend time with people who make their living that way -- most have "regular" jobs that pay the bills while they pursue their art nights and weekends. That's reality. It's true of musicians, artists, those in drama, fashion, dance, and many fields. Many scientists and university researchers live from grant to grant. Writing proposals is essential. That's their reality. They live with that insecurity.

My Dad always said you can pursue your dream, but simultaneously prepare a down-to-Earth Plan B. Music and math. Archeology and geology. Medieval literature and languages. That way there is a stronger foundation and a broader set of opportunities.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

I have just a few thoughts. College was a great time of self discovery for me. I went right out of high school and finished in 3 years, took a year off and went to grad school. (didn't finish that). If your DD loves music and can get into a music program then by all means let her go. As for financial aid there are many many sources of FA, some from the school, some from private sources, some from public sources. Not all FA is tied to music, some is merit based, some you just apply for and write an essay type of thing. But there is a ton of FA dollars out there.

As for summer camp, summer camp is meant to be fun. let her choose where to go.

Finally IDK where in TX you are or what your insurance is but there shouldn't be that long of a wait for mental health. (someone isn't giving you the full story)

One last thing, some careers that come to mind that involve music: writing music, playing in an orchestra/band, theater, teaching adults, working in a museum, teaching music history, owning a music store/lessons, working on radio, i'm sure there are many may more.


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

IMO, a bachlor's is the new hs diploma and a master's degree the new bachelor's. I say this coming from a slightly different perspective because I currently live outside of the US and here everyone who goes to university gets the equiv of a US Masters. My bachelors (plus 7 years of experience in the sector) is not worth all that much here.

I think that many employers want to see a bachelor's degree because it can demonstrate commitment and some may think maturity. I am not saying this is always the case, just can give that impression. College can offer specified training and skills in the area of the major. At least that is the point as I see it. To give a solid (although often theoretical) background in a particular area.

I think going to some kind of training after hs is important and useful in most cases, culinary school, hotel school, etc. Obviously there are people who are very motivated at 18 and start their own business or have a really clear idea of what they want AND the opportunity to obtain it. But not everyone. If a kid is unsure, a sabbatical year is not a bad thing, provided they do something other than sit around on facebook (there are a few young adults in my french class who are au pairs here and the will start uni in the fall).


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I haven't read all 5 pages, but I suspect others have covered what I would want to say about the value of university education. I believe it can have great benefits, including:

-developing intellect,

-expanding world views,

-starting a network for career opportunities,

-providing a supported and gradual move into adult responsibilities (dorm life with on-campus medical centre and counseling services, employment support, etc. is a pretty easy half-step into independence),

-job or professional training

It isn't the only way or even the best way (for some people) to achieve these benefits. I'll bet there's been a good discussion in pp about it, so I won't go into detail.

Regarding music and science, she doesn't have to choose between them. Daniel Levitin is a former professional musician and recording industry producer who does fascinating work in cognitive neuroscience on how the brain interprets music. I would give her copies of his books and let her decide for herself what she wants to study: This is Your Brain on Music and The World in Six Songs. There is a lot of work to be done in this field, as well as evolutionary biology, anthropology, sociology, psychology and probably a half-dozen other specialities.

FWIW, my DS is graduating from a performing arts high school where he majored in music. Many of his classmates are not studying music in university. They are trying lots of other areas - humanities, engineering, business, psychology, and natural medicine, among others. DS has my support for whatever he decides to study. I think he wants to tour with his band for a gap year before he attends uni. It provokes no end of anxiety for me, but I'd rather he try it and have no regrets than spend the year unhappy and inattentive in class, and possibly wasting a year's tuition. DS considered audio engineering, which is a fairly strong field and may interest your DD if she wants to combine a love of math and physics and music. Good luck to her.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

Two quick thoughts:
My babysitter is majoring in music therapy and it seems like a really interesting field with a lot of job prospects. She works with a lot of diverse populations: kids, the elderly, the disabled. Seems like a useful degree for someon who is interested in music.

The point of college: 1. to enter/stay part of the middle class. 2. To obtain specialized knowledge/licensing/credentials

I am very conflicted in my feelings about college. It is expensive and in many ways it can be a waste of time and money, but when you are done you have a recognized societal stamp of approval that allows you to apply for a wide variety of jobs. I think expensive private liberal arts colleges are generally a waste of money and produce graduates who are lacking in life skills and saddled with debt.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Haven't read any replies yet. My son is majoring in Music Composition. His goal is to carry on to a doctorate and teach at a college/university/conservatory level while composing. If that doesn't work out for some reason, he will also be gaining a solid general education and will be able to work in any number of fields. He could stay with music and go into Music Therapy, teach on a primary/secondary level, teach privately, work in a different field altogether, etc.

My daughter intends to major in Bio or a related field, with an eye towards Vet school or going into sport medicine or training.

I went to college, and got a degree in ChemEng. I worked for many years as a Tech Writer, and now work retail. My brother? BS in ElecEng - he's now a day trader. Going to college for a "career" doesn't ensure that's what you'll do for the rest of your life. I prefer to view college as a time to further your education, expand your horizons and your mind, and find out about yourself in ways you may not otherwise be able to.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.


She should research other conservatory options. The good ones are all tough to get into. What instrument does she play? That can make a huge difference. WHat grade is she in? Does she have a private instructor? What summer camp(s) is she interested in (although it is already quite late for the good ones, I hate to tell you)?

Feel free to PM me if you want (or if she wants) more info. My son applied to Curtis, MSM, Berklee & Boyer. He's currently at Boyer, which he is very happy with. A conservatory attached to a university has the added advantage of allowing for a change in major if she changes her mind.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

5 pages already, but this is one of my favorite subjects. My own college experience was less than stellar. My daughter is 16 y.o. and contemplating her college future.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*  I used to think it would be nice to go to college and just major in what a person is really interested in, even if it is social history of the American Colonial period. But in reality, if you spend a lot of money on college, it should probably be a major that you can move toward a job in. But I also heard on a financial show the other day, that any major is better than no college or delaying college. That many careers are not major specific so in many cases, it does not really matter what you major in, you just need that degree.
> 
> My husband is finding that any college is better than no college. He has an AA in electronic engineering. Through his smarts and hard work that AA took him to a $90,000-plus middle management job. He can be proud of himself. He's decided he likes the career trajectory he's on, wants to move higher up in management. It's very notable to him that HR is picking people with Bachelor degrees (or more) including a guy with a degree in music (timpani) from Berklee College of Music. Even though he has more experience in the field, and believes himself to be the better candidate.
> 
> ...


Heh. Your son's plan definitely seems more practical. I really believe people should NOT go to college unless they're sincerely, truly interested in their area of study. Like, they actually enjoy it. I messed around with a journalism degree for 2 years before I figured out it wasn't for me. As a parent I think it would be completely fair for you to encourage your daughter to go to college, get a degree in music, but that you will only pay part of it (or none of it at all) and she will need to get grants, scholarships, loans and a job to pay for the rest. Along the way she may find other areas of interest.

By the way, my dh is just 14 units shy of an AA in music. I encourage him to go for it and get the AA in music, because 1) it will be very satisfying to him, and 2) it's one more badge on his resume. Employers like to see degrees of any sort.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> Do you think I should just not worry about it and if music is her passion, tell her to go for it? Or try to get her to look at other possibilities? It seems like, for music, she has played for years and people always tell her how great she is at it. But when it comes to science and math, which she is also great at, people just do not say anything positive. I have seen people tell her that is geeky. Blow it off. Or upon hearing she got a 97 and 99 in high school biology, that she is just bragging. These are relatives saying this The same relatives who will congratulate her and tell her how brilliant she is when she plays her instrument. In music, she has community music programs to be in and private lessons. But in science, well, it is very scarce what is available.
> 
> I have thought of sending her to a science camp this summer, so she can just have fun with that, but she only wants to go to music camp. It seems a shame to spend the money on science camp when what she really wants is music. But on the other hand, it also feels like people and society in general where we live just is not geared toward encouraging the maths and the sciences so she has not experienced it at all really.


Oh, holy cow, your poor daughter. I can't help but wonder if these people are expressing a degree of sexism. Yes, by all means, strongly urge your daughter to go to science camp. Any chance she could do both science and music camp? It would be a splurge but might be well worth it to encourage her.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> What it sounds like is she doesn't want to go to college but she feels like she has no choice. So she's going to make it as hard as possible to force her to go.
> 
> Honestly, I would just back off. Not having a college degree is not a death sentence. And she can go back later. It sounds like she needs to find out what real life is like instead. Maybe tell her you will assist with living expenses for 6 months in lieu of college but she has to go out and be a grown up on her own after that?


I agree with this. This was part of the problem with my college experience. And like Linda on the Move said, it sounds like your daughter is being unrealistic. Maybe she's just naive. Regardless, I think it's important that she know the levels of complexity. It's not black and white. Not having a college degree is not a death sentence but it is definitely easier to go to college before you're anchored to a baby and a mortgage. Yes, she can definitely go back later. And she will have a much better idea of what she truly wants out of college. I understand that a lot of college teachers appreciate their adult students; they're sincerely committed and want to be there, they're more focused and take the experience seriously. But in practical terms it will be harder.


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## flightgoddess (Mar 4, 2009)

She should go to school where I went, Lawrence University. Plenty of students do a double major in music (either performance or education track) and another major of their choice. I got one of those degrees that may or may not lead to a job, and I did use it for a while, and hope to use it again in the future. Anyway, i felt that my college education was so worth it. In high school, I really thought I was passionate and wanted to do something with biology. After 2 courses my freshman year, with a C and a B-, I decided if it wasn't something I was already good at and interested even more than I was at the time, then I shouldn't waste my money and time pursuing it. So, I was able to explore some other interests and find what I was passionate about, things I never would have considered or known about at home or in high school. Some people out there may be fine with a more practical or vocation education. Some people need time to figure out what they really want to do for the rest of their lives.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OP I agree with someone above who said it sounds like your daughter has WAY bigger, more immediately pressing issues in front of her than what to do about college. I couldn't read every single post - what grade in HS is she in now? Is she already a junior? What grade she's in affects my advice a bit, but the bottom line for now doesn't change: she needs to talk to someone about what she went through last year and how it may be affecting her vision for her future (if she even has a vision).

I do know many (most?) high school students don't have a clear vision of what they want in the future (and also that even those who do usually change their minds a few times before college graduation) but it's very important for her to feel like she does truly have options and for her to WANT healthy, good things for herself in the future. From what little you've said about her experience, her past history (did you adopt her out of foster care or from a private agency?), it sounds like she may need some basic emotional support/processing from a professional. Maybe even a combo of individual therapy and group?

Have you looked into it recently? I don't know how long ago you guys finalized her adoption paperwork, but more and more I'm hearing about groups set up from state to state that try to link adoptive families (even when adoption is already finalized) with resources to help address major issues, especially where the child is struggling.

Have you talked to your daughter about the possibility that what happened last year is still weighing on her? Does she see herself as having been changed by the experience, and if so how? How much do you guys talk to her about her views of herself and her goals for her future?

ETA: As for the original question, aside from my above thoughts, I absolutely and completely think that if we haven't learned anything else from this recession, we should at least learn that (IMHO anyway) we want our kids to have a Plan A and Plan B! If she wants to go to music school but not teach and thinks she'll definitely get into Julliard, how is she planning on paying for Julliard (or another music school) and if not teach, what does she think she's going to do to support herself after music school?

Again, I KNOW kids often don't know at this stage and then change their minds anyway later, and that's natural. But she's embarking on a path that she really needs to have a basic plan re: what she thinks she's going to do at the other end.

I'm a big believer in "experiential learning". If she think she'll be a professional concert musician when she's done with school, take her around to the local symphony or wherever the kind of professional musicians she's aspiring to be like are, and have her talk to some of them about their paths to those jobs, the job market, and whether they've always been able to support themselves through music. And especially if she thinks she's gonna be a singer/songwriter type or popular music musician, she needs to talk to real ones about what their path was like and understand that for every musician that's able to "be a musician for a living", there are probably 100+ who tried and couldn't make it work.

Doesn't mean you don't follow your dreams... it just means that with odds that bad, you MUST have a back up plan. There are many ways to do a "reality check", and she needs to start thinking and hearing from others about what a degree in music most likely will and will not get her.

And then whatever plan she comes up with, get her to think about a Plan B... i.e. what will you do if Plan A doesn't work? It is never too early to help our kids realize that often things don't work out the way you think they will, and it's good to consider that when making huge decisions. Change will always happen, that's a given, but thinking ahead can help kids both FEEL more prepared and able to handle change, as well as actually handle it.


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## treegardner (May 28, 2009)

I read yesterday that the 2011 college graduates will have an average of $22,900 in debt upon graduation.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> One of my friends with a BA was turned down by the Peace Core. They want people with degrees who know how to do things they need done -- engineers, nurses, public health. They don't have much use for liberal arts folks who just need an excuse to travel.


Your friend wasn't turned downed because she had a B.A. Almost everyone I knew when I was in the Peace Corps had a liberal arts degree. (I was an English major.) Someone with a liberal arts degree who joins the Peace Corps does not do so as "an excuse to travel." That's an insulting statement.

From the Peace Corps website: *Volunteers with degrees in humanities and social sciences are likely to be placed in English teaching, health education, community development, and agriculture programs.*

As the Peace Corps website makes clear in its list of qualities sought in volunteers, technical skills are not the main thing. In-country training is excellent, and if you have the other qualities, the PC will see that you get the skills you need and they have already ensured that you're the kind of person who can learn more on your own.

http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.howvol.lookingfor

What Makes A Successful Volunteer
-flexibility
-adaptability
-patience
-skill
-self-reliance
-positive attitude
-resourcefulness
-responsibility
-sense of humor


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Well now I'm caught up with the responses.

OP, wow I'm so sorry your daughter experienced that. Has she had some talk therapy to help her process it? I think it's likely that as she grows and develops she'll revisit this issue periodically, even if she thinks (and you think) she is 'done' processing it. Like Linda said, a psychiatrist is the medical doctor who will prescriber her medicines, but is less likely to provide talk therapy. A psychologist or a family therapist with a specialty in teen issues will be infinitely more helpful. Perhaps someone with ptsd experience would help, as well.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treegardner*
> 
> I read yesterday that the 2011 college graduates will have an average of $22,900 in debt upon graduation.


That doesn't seem like much for a college education. When you think about how much more money college graduates make, on average, than people without a degree, it's definitely worth it!


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MJB*
> 
> That doesn't seem like much for a college education. When you think about how much more money college graduates make, on average, than people without a degree, it's definitely worth it!


I agree - that's far lower than I would have expected for 4 years and a degree. Student loans are low-interest and the payments aren't a huge burden every month. I remember I was paying $112/month for I think a $20k loan. And because I had automatic bill pay, I was never late, and it was great for my credit score, which ended up saving me money in the long run on things like car and home loans.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

A) to learn the things I didn't learn in high school, more well rounded, better depth of subject matter

B) to be able to support myself and my children should something happen to my dh

C) to be the first graduate of college in my extended family (go me!)

D) to be able to tell my kids that "if I could do it, so can you".


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

*


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *NicaG* 


> I think expensive private liberal arts colleges are generally a waste of money and produce graduates who are lacking in life skills and saddled with debt.


I don't agree. I think this can occur, but they also have their benefits. I went to an expensive private liberal arts college with a lot of scholarships, and didn't have a ton of debt when I graduated (and most of those schools do have a lot of scholarships). It was a great experience for me with a great community that really helped me grow as a person. I'd have been swallowed up at a big public school, I am positive--I've done my doctoral degree at a big public school so I know what it's like. I knew when I was 17 that it would make me crazy and I didn't want to do it, and everything that has happened at the big school has confirmed that. The instructional quality at my school was high because an institution that is mostly focused on undergrad teaching gets more professors who are good at that, rather than getting professors who are research leaders but may or may not actually be able to teach and in either case have their grad students doing the majority of the work. I did leave without a few life skills I would have liked to learn, but I was able to pick most of them up fairly readily, and the biggest source of "What am I going to do in the Real World when I graduate?" stress was that I didn't know how to drive, which is really my parents' fault and not the fault of the school. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it was the right place for me.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it was the right place for me.


Worth repeating!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

\

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NicaG*
> 
> \I am very conflicted in my feelings about college. It is expensive and in many ways it can be a waste of time and money, but when you are done you have a recognized societal stamp of approval that allows you to apply for a wide variety of jobs. I think expensive private liberal arts colleges are generally a waste of money and produce graduates who are lacking in life skills and saddled with debt.


I have a liberal arts degree from a very expensive private college. My stepfather paid for my education, so I am very lucky to have no debt from college. And it was a fantastic experience. Someone mentioned literally having their eyes opened and college, and that is what a LAC did for me. I was exposed to so many different things, and 99% of them had no direct bearing on my future income...but when you put it all together I graduated with great critical thinking, writing, and presentation skills. And a lot of confidence and social skills that I would not have learned without leaving home, going far away, and living in a situation where I met a ton of people that were very different than myself.

Now, all that said--college is prohibitively expensive now. I just read an article that said students are stressed and depressed about the price--and I suspect that my happy go lucky college experience is a thing of the past. There are some movements afoot to point out just how unnecessary and overpriced college has become--I'll try to come back with links. And one of the articles I was reading the other day basically said you could give your kid 200K and there are many other worthwhile things that they could do with that money that might be just as useful. Like starting a business. Or starting 10 businesses! I'm not sure I agree or disagree with that--but I'm still thinking about it!

I also wish that I could go to college now and do it all over again. I loved college, got a lot out of it, have no regrets...but man, if I went now?? I'd be on fire academically and I would take advantage of EVERYTHING!


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## Shanny2032 (Aug 10, 2009)

I too did not read all of the replies but I disagree with people who think that college is necessary for "success". You and your children need to have your own defnition of success. I do agree with some posts that said it sounds like your daughter may not be ready for college. And I think that is OK. Do you want to spend a ton of money for an 18 year old to figure it out? If she can think of a goal/career she would eventually use her music degree for, why not let her work/intership/volunteer for a year in that area and see if she really likes it or what opportunities there are. You might still be paying for most or all of her living expenses but you'd be doing that if she were in school anyway and she might honestly learn more this way. If she can't give you some sense of "what she wants to be when she grows up" (and who the heck can at that age!) then you are still better off saving that money while she matures for another year.

I am a college drop out (more than once for a host of reasons). I am a 38 year old, SMBC to a 2.5 year old. I just purchased my first home. I am successful by just about any definition, certainly my own which is what really counts. I have a good paying, stable, long term job that I enjoy. I have worked in the same industry for nearly 20 years. I think that college does not make people successful, people make themselves successful. Do you think that some super smart got it all together kid who doesn't go to college isn't going to be successful? Maybe they will start their own business, a non profit or change the world in a way we cannot imagine and college would literally get in the way of.

I just don't think it is the end all be all. Am I saving for my daughter's college education? Sure, because I think it is one of many choices for which I 'd like to be prepared.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

A few thoughts on this:

1. She is taking the PSATs. She does not need to have a career picked out at this stage. It is very likely that she will change her mind.

2. If she auditions for a music major at Julliard (or any comparable conservatory) and gets in, that's a huge achievement. Should she become one of the 25% of Julliard graduates seeking employment outside her field, employers are bound to be impressed with the level of focus and discipline required to get into the school and complete the course of study.

3. If she decides to go to Julliard and doesn't like it, she can transfer, because Julliard has an excellent reputation.

4. If she sticks with her current, somewhat unrealistic-sounding plan and only applies to Julliard and doesn't get in, but has excellent grades in other subjects, she can reconsider her options and apply to another school.

I don't see a good reason to step on her dream right now.

The point of college? There are many possible reasons it can be worthwhile. One is to provide another transition to independent adulthood, as you pick your own major and become responsible for doing your own homework without your parents' supervision. Obviously, it's not for everyone, as many people figure out other ways to become independent and accrue necessary skills and credentials for their chosen career.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Uuuummm... I could be mistaken (but, having been through it twice quite recently, don't think I am), but PSAT scores aren't generally sent to colleges. Only to the student and their HS. SAT scores are the ones sent to colleges.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

You can elect to have the psat's sent, and if you're a high achieving student it can put you the path to some substantial merit aid and scholarships.


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## homestyle (Nov 22, 2008)

Really interesting to read through all these responses. Brings up a lot of feelings, for sure. I'm also conflicted about the whole higher education experience. I'm very happily a homemaker at 28, first babe on the way in less than a month .... and I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology. No debts. My husband (who is employed in his Ph.D. field and hopes to continue) and I don't owe anyone a dime. I like that a lot. I did community college -> local univeristy --> Ph.D. school out of state. Undergrad was awesome. How great to have the freedom to just learn learn learn while being (I felt) respected as an adult. Ph.D. school was less awesome as time went by. I feel like Ph.D. in hard sciences (my experience) is a huge crapshoot, both in what your experience getting the degree will be and what kind of employment prospects you'll have afterward. That's not even talking about the many many issues I learned that I had with the general culture of my subfield and what it can mean (and what you might have to give up) to be respected & "successful." Can we say 70 hour work weeks & rampant sexism? Well, that's a whole other can of worms. Anywhooo....

OP, it's interesting to me how you are noticing that your daughter might be infatuated with music because of the positive attention she gets from it. Looking back, I think that is a huge reason why I went into (& stayed too long in) science! What an ego boost it all was for me. It is hard, as a young person, to honestly figure yourself out when lots of people around you are showering down admiration. I think you are right on in your gut feelings on that. I have no clue how one can share this wisdom with a teenager .... it might be one of those things that only one's own experience can teach.

By the way, some one was talking about education expenses when going into the sciences .... you should know that it is standard, at least in math & science, to get a tuition waiver and stipend for Ph.D. programs. The best programs also do not require teaching to support yourself, although this is not always true (for example, many mathematics programs, environmental science programs, and others ... even the best ones). But any program without a tuition waiver and livable stipend is not a program worth considering. For many schools, tuition waiver/stipend is the norm for all Ph.D. programs (where I went to grad school, this was normal even for English Ph.Ds, although they were required to teach throughout). And for hard sciences, at least, you go right from undergrad --> Ph.D., no Master's required. (p.s. This is just a heads-up on how it works, not an endorsement! Indeed, I think some of these things are not in the students' best interest and are how you can get sucked in to something that might be not be your cup of tea!)


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## physmom (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *homestyle*
> 
> Really interesting to read through all these responses. Brings up a lot of feelings, for sure. I'm also conflicted about the whole higher education experience. I'm very happily a homemaker at 28, first babe on the way in less than a month .... and I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology. No debts. My husband (who is employed in his Ph.D. field and hopes to continue) and I don't owe anyone a dime. I like that a lot. I did community college -> local univeristy --> Ph.D. school out of state. Undergrad was awesome. How great to have the freedom to just learn learn learn while being (I felt) respected as an adult. Ph.D. school was less awesome as time went by. I feel like Ph.D. in hard sciences (my experience) is a huge crapshoot, both in what your experience getting the degree will be and what kind of employment prospects you'll have afterward. That's not even talking about the many many issues I learned that I had with the general culture of my subfield and what it can mean (and what you might have to give up) to be respected & "successful." Can we say 70 hour work weeks & rampant sexism? Well, that's a whole other can of worms. Anywhooo....
> 
> ...


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Another science PhD here - (my degree is in neurobiology and behavior). I decided not to stay in academia and went to work for a startup instead.
I got out of school with minimal education debt (less than 5K of loans from my undergrad) and my PhD had a decent stipend for a single person to live on (buying a house and starting a family - not so much).
I found that my training and my credentials got me into a position I have now (I went straight from school into a lead scientist position) and with my work experience added I should many highly prestigious career opportunities. I'm really glad I got my education even though the PhD was hard and very trying, (in retrospect - my advisor was not only sexist but also verbally abusive) I am a stronger, more capable person for it.
Undergrad was wonderful for me. I knew I wanted to learn as much as I could though, so I made the most of my time taking classes rather than socializing or floundering. I met a lot of amazing people too.
I would encourage my children to learn as much as they can/aim high, but set goals and not wander aimlessly too much (because I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it)


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

*


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I just saw an article that was totally pertinent to this older thread:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2011/06/06/110606crat_atlarge_menand

It's from the most recent New Yorker, discussing the value of college with an open mind and some historical perspective on how different thinkers approach the question. It's perhaps a little long, but it's shorter than this thread!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

thank you so much capn. that was indeed a good read. and it shows realistically what student philosophy is.

esp. those who are into medicine, engineering or science/math related subjects or even courses like EMT. they ALL protest 'why do we have to take GE classes'. its a waste of their time. they are so focused on their subjects (and rightly so having taken chemistry myself







) that most of them have closed minds going into GE requirements. they learn very little from it - only concerned about getting an A in the class.

however the whole article was from a have to go to college perspective. pretty much saying you have to have the training.

i would love to see an article from truly the other side. without college degrees.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I've been working overnights at Walmart to pay for my tuition at the National Midwifery Institute, a CPM program. There are lots of people working there who have college degrees, complete with student loans, but are making $8 an hour.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> however the whole article was from a have to go to college perspective. pretty much saying you have to have the training.
> 
> i would love to see an article from truly the other side. without college degrees.


So would I! I would love to see the face of the writer of the article, a professor of literature and the winner of a Pulitzer Prize, who has been publishing in the New Yorker for the last decade, when the New Yorker finds a person who can write as well as he can who doesn't have a BA. But the thing is, he was basically arguing that a lot of people who graduate from college don't learn the things he thinks they should be learning. He is deploring the use of college as a vocational school. So he and the hypothetical anti-college writer might have a meeting of the minds on some issues.

(He also needs to update his author bio at the New Yorker. I cannot believe a man with that many publications and a freakin' Pulitzer got turned down for tenure. Harvard is such a weird place. I guess that's part of his argument, too.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> I've been working overnights at Walmart to pay for my tuition at the National Midwifery Institute, a CPM program. There are lots of people working there who have college degrees, complete with student loans, but are making $8 an hour.


Is that a problem with college, or a problem with this economy? The unemployment rate is 8.7%. To me, seeing college graduates working nights at Wal-mart proves that people in the US work hard to make ends meet, not that college is a waste of time.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

The thing that irritates me about college is that a college degree is becoming meaningless. Graduate school is what college used to be. Lots of other things bother me about college, but I don't want to write an essay. I was actually talking to my brother, and he said that some companies are starting to recruit kids right out of high school so they can train them, and get them working right away without wasting the time/resources/etc. for college.

Just one more thing: the price for college is going up, and the quality is going down. People should go to college for a reason. When everyone goes just because it's the thing to do, then you have a lot of people there who could care less about scolarship and thinking and learning, and who care more about partying, drinking, etc. Not that parties are all bad, but it's pretty sad when the stereotype of the college years is partying.

For full disclosure, I graduated with a four year degree in journalism and creative writing.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> But the thing is, he was basically arguing that a lot of people who graduate from college don't learn the things he thinks they should be learning. He is deploring the use of college as a vocational school. So he and the hypothetical anti-college writer might have a meeting of the minds on some issues.
> 
> ...


i am a little lost here. by waste of time do you mean you at least gain personal growth or some sort of growth which might not necessarily mean a job. that you gain some knowledge? 
the author also brings this up when he talks about the rise in people going to college.

i agree with his take on specialisation which i see all around me. with community colleges now giving high schoolers first priority with class registration i see a larger number of just graduated or last year in high school kids. and a huge number of them really dont care about the subjects being taught - IF they have already decided on a major. they are closed off to any other possibility.

i recall my english class. i loved the teacher and the essays she chose. i learnt soooooo much. for instance i was familiar with illiteracy in 3rd world countries where because of the sheer numbers an illiterate person is not so isolated. but here. they face sooo much isolation. or dumpster diving. perhaps a couple of the students found something interesting. but the others just didnt care. they wanted to just write and be done with it.

only a few of the students were interested in social issues.

which makes me wonder. should everyone go to college at 18? perhaps they might be open to 'growing in learning' after they've got the youth out of their system. makes me wonder should even school begin at 5 or should we wait till 7 or even 8.

there is something really wrong here. about life in general. i cant exactly put my finger on it. i call it the living dead. most of the people are not really living. they are surviving. not saying all. but the majority. they are not leading lives that are inspiring or 'happy' (for lack of a better word).

in the ancient world university was meant to help you find what you are meant to do in the world. kinda like discover yourself and then go do what makes you 'happy'. not tell you what to do but help you discover.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> i am a little lost here. by waste of time do you mean you at least gain personal growth or some sort of growth which might not necessarily mean a job. that you gain some knowledge?
> the author also brings this up when he talks about the rise in people going to college.


Even from the point of view of professional development, it's worthwhile to attend college, even if you can't get a job in your field immediately after you graduate. I don't foresee a massive reversal of the current trend to pay people according to how much education they have. I think some people are able to find ways to get professional credentials without doing a bachelor's degree or attending college, but college is a socially accepted career path.

Of course, there are other, less tangible reasons to go to college, like a respect for education or a desire to learn for its own sake, an opportunity to be exposed to new ideas and cultures.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> in the ancient world university was meant to help you find what you are meant to do in the world. kinda like discover yourself and then go do what makes you 'happy'. not tell you what to do but help you discover.


The first universities were medieval, originally attached to urban cathedrals. In the ancient world, there were precursors to universities that we now usually call academies. I don't think either ancient academies or medieval universities were meant to help students discover themselves, except perhaps through the monastic life that often accompanied the life of scholarship in medieval and some ancient societies. The purpose of academies and universities was learning. I'm not sure why we have to defend that as a purpose for contemporary colleges and universities.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I hope to read this thread when I get a chance, but I just wanted to share this first.

I went to college and got my bachelor's degree because my parents had set aside the money for this, and, after trying full time work for a bit, I decided exploring ideas would be a heck of a lot more fun than heading straight into responsible adulthood. Yet I knew, all along, that my real plan was to get married and stay home with my kids, not to have a career.

I got a degree in social work. After college, I worked for one and a half years in a halfway house with Cuban refugees coming out of jail. Then I decided that I didn't like the person I was turning into...so I went and got a job as a teacher in a day care center. I worked in the child care field until about a month after I married at age thirty-five. I got pregnant right away and I did end up being a full time stay-at-home mom for ten years.

Then it became clear that I was going to need to start bringing in an income. Through a single homeschooling friend, I learned about a real work-from-home job giving telephone English lessons to people in Europe and Asia. I applied and got the job. I started a little over a year ago, when my younger dd had just turned five and my older dd was about to turn ten.

At that time, dh's and my plan was for me to work part time to supplement his full time income, but this past February he had his second TIA, and, when he tried to go back to work shortly after his return from the hospital, he got a severe headache. He and I talked it over and agreed that it would be best for him to quit. I expanded my availabilities and am now giving around 35 hours of lessons a week, and it pays well enough that it adds up to more than I would likely earn at a full time "regular" job.

This job does not require an ESL degree or any kind of teaching degree -- but it does require some sort of bachelor's degree. So I'm so glad I took that four-year-break between childhood and adulthood all those years ago. I want to do everything I can to help my daughters do this, too, if they want to.

I never became a social worker, but my social work degree has nevertheless opened a door for me and broadened my options.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> I'm not sure why we have to defend that as a purpose for contemporary colleges and universities.


Because like the author said the purpose should be 'learning' and its all becoming vocational - even liberal arts too.

vocational not because its something you want to do - but a way of earning money - like the race in nursing majors.

i hope when and if my dd goes to college i hope she goes for the 'learning' and discovering aspect of it and out of that will come her professional training that she feels called for, not for a reason to make money. if she is not sure what she wants to do, i hope college (whenever that happens) gives her the choices and she makes the choice of what she wants to go into.

so in a sense medieval universities were places of learning - yup they were, but i feel todays is not about learning, but more about training. i think that's my biggest pet peeve about university. many are not choosing a degree because of the love of learning but because it will bring them better jobs. of course many because they feel they have no other options. and if they get the right profs and are inspired they stick on. or else they drop out.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

We also have to address the original question in the OP, which was about whether to encourage her bright high schooler to pursue a degree in music. What if she couldn't get a job as a musician, would the college tuition be wasted?

I think there are both professional reasons and personal reasons why it's worthwhile for people to go to college and study. I think it still has validity as a professional path and that it has further use as a means to learning, so why not? I agree with you, meemee, that the current climate discourages serious learning. I like Mammal Mama's example, above, of how a degree in social work enabled her to get jobs in related fields, both before and after she chose to stay at home raising children.

I do regret pursuing a PhD, often, but I can't imagine who I would be now if I hadn't gone to college.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.


You could easily turn that around and say that those saying it's worth it are justifying the years they spent in school and the cost of paying for it. After all, you wouldn't want to think you wasted all that cash and time right?

Snotty attitudes can go both ways.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> We also have to address the original question in the OP, which was about whether to encourage her bright high schooler to pursue a degree in music. What if she couldn't get a job as a musician, would the college tuition be wasted?


here is the part (though i think the thread has gone far beyond the original question) that stops me from directly answering that question.

there is something about tenacity. i really feel if you strongly believe in something and hold on it with a pitbull bite you can never fail. you become your own 'salesman' living and breathing what you want to do and jumping at chances to make it happen. who knows?!!! am i right? or will life experience prove me wrong.

all that i know is that's what keeps me going as i struggle to get into a Ph D program myself as i start over academically all over again.

not having walked that path i dont feel qualified to give advice on that subject - coz in my own life i've been called an idiot by almost all family members and some friends. irresponsible.

will my ph d be worth it? in my heart i know it will - but only time will tell.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> We also have to address the original question in the OP, which was about whether to encourage her bright high schooler to pursue a degree in music. What if she couldn't get a job as a musician, would the college tuition be wasted?


In my opinion? No. But then... my son is studying Music Composition. He may never make a lot of money, but he will bring something positive to this world.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

I've not read through all the replies since its late and I think I can finally lay down with my cranky lil one. But I wanted to say that I have a high school friend who is a very talented violinist. She went to college and majored in music. She does not teach but has worked for several years with a cruise company in a string ensemble. She absolutely loves her job and it definately pays more than minimum wage. There is also the possibility of working as a composer or with a professional orchestra. There are many opportunities available in the music industry that does not include teaching. Also, if she enters the field, she'll probably be exposed to other various avenues to persue as a career in music. Or she could end up like my DH-still in love with music but realizing that its a passion that doesn't translate into a career. Most college students change their major a myriad of times! I hope that wasn't redundant at all!!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Now that I've had a bit more time to read a good part of this thread, I want to add that I agree with meemee and the others who say, in one way or another, that there is tremendous value in the learning that can take place in college, irregardless of whether the degree itself is economically beneficial.

Personally, I feel that my college education, especially the courses I took in sociology and anthropology, planted seeds in me that made me more willing to consider raising my children differently from how my relatives and friends had raised, or were raising, theirs. Many of these seeds took years to bear fruit (but I didn't become a mom until many years after college), because I was not ready in my early twenties to risk getting on what I saw, then, as a slippery slope to destruction by genuinely considering the possibility that all life evolved from a common ancestor, or that people in non-Christian cultures might have some insights into spirituality that my own culture was lacking.

The college atmosphere, both in class and outside class in gatherings around tables or chats on benches, introduced me to the wonderful concept of being able to disagree respectfully. It seems that so many people in the world I grew up in see debate as "argumentative" and contentious, especially for women -- but college gave me a glimpse of a world where you could express your own opinion and still be kind to others. Not that everyone in college followed the rules of kindness, but enough did that it gave me a sort of blueprint for how I could be a caring person and also be opinionated.

My main concern with regard to economics is that I really want my girls to be free to pursue their passions whether or not they are lucrative, and it seems to me that the weight of student loans can be rather constricting these days. I wish I could say, like my parents did, that the money to cover a four year degree and dormitory costs is just sitting there for them to avail themselves of anytime they are ready, but I just have a feeling it's not going to be all sitting there in one lump sum seven years from now when my oldest dd is eighteen. Maybe I'll be able to do like one of my friends did; she and her husband made monthly payments on their daughter's student loan for the four (or five?) years that she attended, and had it all paid off for her by the time she graduated.

Maybe that's why my destiny ended up being to have two girls five years apart instead of having about four children very close in age as I had originally wanted!

So, in a nutshell, I would not try to deter one of my children from following her passion just because I didn't see it as lucrative -- but I would encourage her to look into ways of furthering her education that would not lock her into a heavy debt-load.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.


in my circumstances my undergrad degree was worthless - in my humble opinion. i HAD to do it because my parents insisted i do so. i was a closed mind in college out of protest. i did the bare minimum and so was trained but did not 'learn'.

the jobs i got with my degree were dissatisfying low paying jobs. the high paying job that i got was the one that didnt need me to have the degree. and it was a job i loved. apparently work ethic and manangement skills was valued over an education (however i will say i started at the bottom and rose up really quick). i could have gone and applied with my degree to higher paying job but i discovered higher paying jobs demanded way more out of you than i was willing to give. nor did i want to become a cog in teh wheel that a state job would bring me.

so yes while my BA opened up doors for me - they were not the kind of doors i wanted to walk through. i discovered having a car was more important than a degree to get the kind of non profit jobs i was interested in.

today when i am back in school i am a completely different person. its because i want to work in a particular area and thus realised i have to go back and get my ph d to do the things i want to. that doesnt mean i will grab the chance to do just any work my higher degree will open up for me. i still refuse to walk through those doors.

i am not making a general statement here. i am talking more about myself and my own philosophy. here i hated management with a venegance all these years (the politics) and now i realise how much i love it and thus am good at it because people are my thing. therefore i have become involved in a research program without even entering a graduate program and presently negotiating a contractor contract as they cant hire me as i am not in their program.

ooooooooh







FINALLY i realise what i am trying to get at. duh. its taken me this long to be enlightened.

my big eureka moment for now is that what makes a HUGE difference is personal philosophy. its huge. humongous. are you one who can work any job or are you one who can work only a certain kind of job.

i have a friend who pursued the learning of his choice and chose a soul sucking job - hated it everyday except when he had to go do field study. he stayed because his focus was not his job, but the life style the paycheck gave him. he was the any kind of job person.

however that's not how i view work. i could never live his life. i would die. work is my life and play. if work is out of whack my whole life is out of whack.

in fact i chased a paycheck just to be with dd. and it had a huge detrimental affect on my whole life and life as a mother. the soul sucking took me to the deepest level of depression that i have ever been in, where even being a mother couldnt pull me out. i had to quit and be poor but happy in life. and while i went without things the experiences were amazing.

so a college education is GREAT for people who can do any job and so they go for the money rather than what the job entails.

but for people like me where the kind of job matters a great deal a college degree does not make a difference unless it is required in your field. it still isnt. however i want to be in the same line of work but at a different level which i can only achieve with a higher education and therefore i am happy to be back. that means this time around i am not being trained but am 'learning'. at every moment of the way.


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## oldhippiemom52 (Jan 24, 2011)

A very interesting discussion. I have a B.S. in General Studies, my husband does not. It was his union job as a transit operator (and the benefits that went with it) that made it possible for me to stay home with our two boys until they were 9 and 12. Then I went to work for the school system so I could have the same hours and days that they did. College helped me indirectly. When No Child Left Behind was passed...and I won't go into my soapbox on that travesty)...I had the degree so could work in Title 1 schools as an Instructional Asst. My co-workers without degrees were scrambling to study for an assessment test that fulfilled the requirement. I was relieved to not have that stressor; I am incapable of math past about the 5th grade level and they were all sweating over algebra problems. As the years went by, I got into Vocational/Transition services. At this point I am finally earning close to what my husband did before he retired four years ago. I have learned strictly on the job; the college degree has done nothing except give me the status of having one. I am all for union trade jobs if a person can't/doesn't want to go the college route. They pay well, and the benefits are unmatched. My sons, now 21 and 24, both have degrees; in math/economics and chemistry respectively. They have opted for the professional track, which is fine as long as you don't get a Humanities degree as I did. Their debt loads are huge, but they knew that going in. I agree with everyone here who has said it is really a matter of personal choice.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

thiel scholarship http://www.thielfoundation.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=14:the-thiel-fellowship-20-under-20&catid=1&Itemid=16

can we blame our students for choosing 'vocational' subjects over learning.


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