# Why do people dislike Disney?



## angela1435 (May 11, 2007)

I have heard people mention this quite a few times. I know some don't like the themes of some of their movies, such as the princess movies. Any other reason?


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

I love Disneyland, but Disneyana is to twee for me.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

nak

i'm cheap, and a disney vacation looks like this side of hell---crazy money, it's always crazy hot there, and there are crazy lots of people and crazy long lines. Just not my idea of a good time.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Reason 1: Because they market the heck out of everything. The stories are so-so -- some are decent, some aren't. But every.single.thing. is marketed to the umpteenth degree. And the stuff that is produced is generally of low quality that breaks easily. So, I don't like them because it teaches what I consider to be crass consumerism.

Reason 2: Because the themed toys don't encourage truly creative play. A lot of the toys encourage the children to re-enact the Disney stories. That's OK if those themes are somehow important to the child at that moment in time, but often there's no encouraging or stretching their own themes.

Reason 3: I find them to be far too stereotypical in gender roles for my tastes.

Reason 4: Most of the Disney story books are not well written and painful for me to read.

All of that being said, my dh is currently on a 4 day vacation to.... Disney World. But he loves the theme park aspect of it. He loves the attention to detail. He's intrigued by their marketing techniques. We'll probably take the kids in a year or two.


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Reason 1: Because they market the heck out of everything. The stories are so-so -- some are decent, some aren't. But every.single.thing. is marketed to the umpteenth degree. And the stuff that is produced is generally of low quality that breaks easily. So, I don't like them because it teaches what I consider to be crass consumerism.

this article drives home your point.
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment...at_disney.html


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## ellemenope (Jul 11, 2009)

We love Disney them parks and vacations. They have the highest standards in the industry. (although, I have noticed a slight decline in the special feeling you get there in the last few years, but only slight.)

I don't think their movies are that great, and like PPs have said, If I liked the movie, that doesn't mean I want to own the backpack, the bedspread, the happy meal toys, the cups, the potty-chair, the doll, the shirt...

But, anyway, they can do their thing, and I will do mine.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Don't like Disney movies, in general. The original stories are *way* better. When Disney "disneyfies" something, it's almost always a huge step *down*.









Don't like Disney merchandise because to me it's either hokey, plastic, or both.









Don't like the marketing.

I think for the kids, Disneyland and Epcot might be enjoyable and it would be fun to watch them having fun, but it's out of our league price-wise to travel that far, stay in hotels, and pay to get in.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I don't care for the monopoly they seem to have on the stories. Walt Disney has some sketchy history I've heard about, too...

that said, dd (of course) is in love with the disney princes movies... and I have fond memories from my childhood, so I have been bending on it, but I refuse to buy all that disney junk... some ok (dd loves the polly-pocket style dolls), but I don't want to get her all the disney paraphernalia


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
All of that being said, my dh is currently on a 4 day vacation to.... Disney World. But he loves the theme park aspect of it. He loves the attention to detail. He's intrigued by their marketing techniques. We'll probably take the kids in a year or two.

We went to Disney World in 2007. The trip was a - very generous - gift from my in-laws. It is _not_ my style, and I had to do a lot of "grin and bear it". However, I was pretty blown away by the seamlessness of the whole thing. We didn't have a single glitch in any of our arrangements from the moment we got off our plane in Orlando.

And, with respect to a completely other aspect of their attention to detail...I was _astonished_ at the number of places/ways they managed to work the Mickey Mouse logo into things.


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

I've been to Disneyworld 3 times--the last time when I was 22. Loved it! I'd love to bring DD when she's older, although DH says no way. (Although I think if DD ever mentions she wants to go, he'll buy tickets the next day.)

Some of their movies are pretty funny, and I remember going to see Aladin in my 20s with a bunch of friends. I must say, though, that the underlying theme is always the same: 100% good guy vs 100% bad guy, and good guy always wins. There's no subtlety or nuance and certainly no indication that people have good and bad in them, which--to me--can make kids feel like they're "bad" when they do something wrong. I prefer movies that reflect real life: that sometimes things are hard, and sometimes people do bad things, and sometimes we do bad things, and our goal is to try to do better and to learn.

The marketing also gets on my nerves, and I work in advertising so you'd think I'd be immune. It's just so... everywhere. But I guess I'll let DD decide for herself if she wants a Jasmine lunchbox or one with a monkey on it. (Er... I had a backpack with a HUGE picture of an orangutan on the back when I was in grade 1 and was teased mercilessly. Thanks, Mom!)


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## AnalogWife (Sep 8, 2007)

I've only been to Disney World, and I've been there a good chunk of times as an adult and my DH and I pretty much love it there. It is fun, it's clean, it's *safe*, it's beautiful, it is soooo accommodating to those with special needs.

As for Disney Corp, we are disgusted with the way it treats its employees, unless you have a specialized skill (musician, wedding hairdresser) you are treated like shit. The *~magic~* dissipates once you're behind the scenes. I know it's wrong! I try not to think about it because the presentation is sooooo good.

The movies, I think are lacking of values. We get tired of the motherless people, the scary scenes, the oversimplification of Happily Ever After. But on the other side, we still _like_ the movies. They are nice to look at, they have good songs, don't even get me started on how much we love Pixar.

It all starts with Walt himself. He was kind of a dink to his employees, my DH digs up all these youtube vids on him, and being revered as a national treasure is sorta OFF-balance.

But we can't help it. We *love* the parks. And I'd give anything to take an Adventures By Disney trip to Jackson Hole or Germany. Our next trip is fantasized to be a Disney Cruise--my DH is very impressed that there's no casinos aboard, there is plenty SAFE programs and features in place for both kids and parents to have a good time. They have a good, decent product--one designed to allow anyone from 0 to 108 to shed reality and to just dream.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I have a love-hate relationship with Disney.

Some of their films are beautiful and some are really quite wonderful - I'm not talking about merely the Princess Canon or whatever but ones like The Sword in the Stone and some of the live ones. There is something magical about many of the iconic scenes - Malificent changing into a dragon; Fantasia.

I recognize that much of what they have done has survived not just on the marketing machine but because there was artistry and care underneath, and I think you see that in what people above talked about with quality.

On the other hand...Disney has engaged in unethical labour practices, and taken stories so out of context and culture as to make them almost meaningless, changes the endings of things, and also has made itself so - pervasive. Not just the merchandise (I really think Star Wars actually started the worst of it), but things like Celebration, FL (am I think the only person who can't think of that place without thinking of Pleasantville?) and Disney weddings (yes, for a mere $20,000 you too can rent Cinderella's coach and complete your Princess experience).

The other thing that upsets me about Disney is their deliberate choice to make Pocohontas (and to a lesser extent Aladdin in my lifetime). I could handle some of the old racism, even Song of the South, in the past as belonging to a more ignorant time. But why on earth would you choose to take the Pocohontas legend in 1995, give Pocohontas one of the smallest waists in the Disney canon (hard to do), and romanticize what was a colonial kidnapping? I don't get it. Come up with something else.

We don't boycott Disney or anything but it's an unsettled relationship.

By the way I love this Vanity Fair story on Disney colorists.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
I must say, though, that the underlying theme is always the same: 100% good guy vs 100% bad guy, and good guy always wins. There's no subtlety or nuance and certainly no indication that people have good and bad in them, which--to me--can make kids feel like they're "bad" when they do something wrong. I prefer movies that reflect real life: that sometimes things are hard, and sometimes people do bad things, and sometimes we do bad things, and our goal is to try to do better and to learn.

I see that about Disney a lot. I don't really see it that way. You mentioned Aladdin in your post. He was a thief and he spent most of the movie lying to Jasmine...hardly "100% good". Ariel misbehaved and got in trouble a lot, but was clearly not supposed to be a "bad" person. The Beast wasn't a very nice person - that's how he ended up being turned into a Beast.

The bad guys are more or less 100% bad, but I don't really have a problem with that. Maybe they do all have good qualities (first thing that comes to mind is that the governor or whatever in Pocahontas dotes on his dog)...so what? Would there really be any reason to portray that a man determined to burn every gypsy in Paris or a man who wants to destroy the "savages" or a woman who wants to kill her stepdaughter for being pretty (Snow White, and almost Cinderella) as having "good qualities"? Do they make up for any of that?

I can't imagine a child taking away the message that hitting their sibling means they're the moral equivalent of Jafar.

Quote:

The marketing also gets on my nerves, and I work in advertising so you'd think I'd be immune. It's just so... everywhere.
I hate the marketing and my dh and in-laws love Disney, so I see a lot of it. But, otoh, I tend to overlook the Spider-Man marketing, just because I love Spidey, so I'm a total hypocrite.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Reason 1: Because they market the heck out of everything. The stories are so-so -- some are decent, some aren't. But every.single.thing. is marketed to the umpteenth degree. And the stuff that is produced is generally of low quality that breaks easily. So, I don't like them because it teaches what I consider to be crass consumerism.

I was making fun of the "Toy Story 3" stuff at the store the other day. The character dolls are the EXACT SAME as the ones from Toy Story 1 and 2...but they're marked up and whatnot because they're from the NEWEST movie!!!!!!!


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't like the marketing tacts. You can get EVERYTHING from underwear to a toaster with your favorite disney character.

the main disney movies are better told in their original form. the 2nd string stories are b rate.

they milk the heck out of everything. How many Aladdin movies are there? 3? 4? 4 lion kings. a cartoon etc

the encourage a (imo) false reality of childhood. not every kid needs to go to disney land. It's like a journey to cartoon mecca. Its worshiped, the characters are tattoos. I think it's an obsession for many that starts in childhood

they are also way to big a company, they control too much of the media presented to children.
nak


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I see that about Disney a lot. I don't really see it that way. You mentioned Aladdin in your post. He was a thief and he spent most of the movie lying to Jasmine...hardly "100% good". Ariel misbehaved and got in trouble a lot, but was clearly not supposed to be a "bad" person. The Beast wasn't a very nice person - that's how he ended up being turned into a Beast.

I guess I was thinking of Peter Pan/Captain Hook, or Snow White/Evil Step-Mother type movies. You're right--there are some Disney movies where the good guys are mildly "bad" and recover when they learn how much better being good is. At the end of the movie, though, where lessons are supposed to be learned, people are either on the "good" side or on the "bad" side.

I don't think kids come away thinking that hitting their sibling makes them like an evil Disney character. But I do think this all good/all bad dichotomy effects kids at some level. To dig up my literature background (from yay many years ago), the main character in a classic piece of literature is flawed from the beginning, goes through a trauma, and comes out changed. It's not about becoming good, necessarily, but _evolving_. That theme is what makes the classics timeless.

But for some reason, these kids' movies are turned into good/bad battles. And the lesson is "be good" and "don't be bad"--rather than "try to be good and see the good in others, even if you're sometimes bad." I think there's a lot of underlying guilt involved in that kind of thinking. It's very... religious, on many levels.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

For me it's the marketing. They put a lot of effort into creating a captive audience from birth through life, in creating a strong brand following at a very young age that people will continue to follow through life. I definitely recommend the book Buy Buy Baby on this subject. Not Disney in particular.

I also don't like how Disney now "owns" princesses. I made DD a princess dress-up costume, and she was wearing it when a friend came over and the friend said it was very pretty and looked very confused and then asked me which princess it was supposed to be. Um, just a generic pretty dress. If you look in catalogs at dress-up clothes that aren't licensed by Disney, they're still obviously copying as much of the Disney princess stylings as they can. The princess wear also seems to have consumed the entire category of dress-up clothes for girls.

I like the movies and the theme park for what they are. I've seen most of the movies at one time or another, and they're not Citizen Kane but they're good and fun to watch. I went to the theme park once as a kid and had a good time. I just don't like the branding. When my kids are older, I'll show them the movies and take them to Disney World (once) and we'll all have a good time. I just don't have any interest in having them glued to a brand at this age.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Don't like Disney movies, in general. The original stories are *way* better. When Disney "disneyfies" something, it's almost always a huge step *down*.









To be fair, if Disney told the "original version" of Aladdin (esp. in its original context as one of Sheherezade's stories in 1001 Nights, a tale of a woman attempting to put an end to a king's rampage of rape and murder in the midst of his madness) Snow White, The Little Mermaid, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Cinderella, and Beauty and the Beast, we'd all be shocked at the gore, violence, rape allegories, ect. that someone put into a (gasp) Children's Movie.

Different time periods, vastly different audiences. What you can tell as an oral storytelling tradition that is later written down, or as a very clear political swipe in allegory to a *mixed age* audience who lived over a hundred years ago, and what you can tell now to people who live in a society where they'd probably pass out watching someone butcher a chicken (all meat comes from semi-sterile, pre cut packages so it doesn't offend our delicate sensibilities) and where people freak out about toy knives and guns much less graphic depictions of self-mulitation in order to achieve a goal are VERY different.

I think the stories could be better told for modern sensibilities (and they have been!). But I dunno, saying Disney is a step "down" from Brothers Grimm doesn't ring true to me. It's a whole different universe, by design, and I would say cultural necessity.

Disney did not make us, as a society, incapable of dealing with violence and dark themes without hysteria, it merely caters to that desire to prettify everything to make it "light" (as if children did not have violent impulses and dark things to work through). I think it's a convenient scapegoat though.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am not going to repeat what everyone has already said.

what i want to say is disney didnt make movies to entertain the kids. their motive was never that (no matter what they 'say'). it was always about profit and how to take over the market for them. of course walt disney loved children but business was about something quite different.

and the twist they gave them is what i object to. being leaders in teh market they could have easily focused on something more like what hanna barbera did or looney toons.

they started the trend of including adult humor in children's cartoons which seems to be the norm now.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
To be fair, if Disney told the "original version" of Aladdin (esp. in its original context as one of Sheherezade's stories in 1001 Nights, a tale of a woman attempting to put an end to a king's rampage of rape and murder in the midst of his madness) Snow White, The Little Mermaid, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Cinderella, and Beauty and the Beast, we'd all be shocked at the gore, violence, rape allegories, ect. that someone put into a (gasp) Children's Movie.

Different time periods, vastly different audiences. What you can tell as an oral storytelling tradition that is later written down, or as a very clear political swipe in allegory to a *mixed age* audience who lived over a hundred years ago, and what you can tell now to people who live in a society where they'd probably pass out watching someone butcher a chicken (all meat comes from semi-sterile, pre cut packages so it doesn't offend our delicate sensibilities) and where people freak out about toy knives and guns much less graphic depictions of self-mulitation in order to achieve a goal are VERY different.

I think the stories could be better told for modern sensibilities (and they have been!). But I dunno, saying Disney is a step "down" from Brothers Grimm doesn't ring true to me. It's a whole different universe, by design, and I would say cultural necessity.

Disney did not make us, as a society, incapable of dealing with violence and dark themes without hysteria, it merely caters to that desire to prettify everything to make it "light" (as if children did not have violent impulses and dark things to work through). I think it's a convenient scapegoat though.









I agree. And even in the Grimm's times, the stories were very quickly being sanitized. Disney didn't do it all. Most of these stories were originally adult stories, and the first edition of the Grimm book was intended for an adult audience. But they quickly realized that there was a much larger market in making them children's stories. The differences between the different editions of their books is apparently striking in how cleaned up they are.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

and the twist they gave them is what i object to. being leaders in teh market they could have easily focused on something more like what hanna barbera did or looney toons.

they started the trend of including adult humor in children's cartoons which seems to be the norm now.

You don't see any "adult humor" in hanna barbera or looney toons?

IMO, we have gone the other way. There is a TON of adult humor in older cartoons. There's less and less of it now. (Though perhaps that is different on cable, which we don't have, but I doubt it.)

I mean seriously, have you watched an old episode of the Flinstones or Jetsons or watched Bugs Bunny as an adult? There's a ton of political and satirical stuff in there, that would freak people out if they saw it on, say, Dora or Arthur.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I LOVE Disney! I love Mickey, I love Tinkerbell I love Toon town. I love it all.









I have been on the Peter Pan ride a million times and I never get bored.

I am waiting anxiously for the new "Disney Epic Mickey" wii game to come out at Christmas. It's all I want for Christmas.

I absolutely adore my Dance Dance revolution Disney songs wii game.


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## hergrace (Oct 9, 2003)

I have a different reason to dislike I Disney. They have spent a lot of money and political energy to change copyright laws so that Steamboat Willie (the precursor to Mickey Mouse) remains protected by copyright. The end result has been horrible for independent artists.

I have mixed feelings about Pixar, too, having seen more than I wanted to of things I don't like behind the magic there, but at least their stories continue to move me.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
You don't see any "adult humor" in hanna barbera or looney toons?

IMO, we have gone the other way. There is a TON of adult humor in older cartoons. There's less and less of it now. (Though perhaps that is different on cable, which we don't have, but I doubt it.)

I mean seriously, have you watched an old episode of the Flinstones or Jetsons or watched Bugs Bunny as an adult? There's a ton of political and satirical stuff in there, that would freak people out if they saw it on, say, Dora or Arthur.

Flinstones and Jetsons were prime time TV shows, though. I'm sure lots of kids watched them, but they weren't "kids shows" the way that Dora and Arthur are. They certainly weren't for the same age kids that Dora and Arthur are for... those kids would have been in bed! That's like comparing The Simpsons or Family Guy to Dora and Arthur.

I do actually agree with her. These cartoon movies cost a lot to make, so they want a really wide audience. So there are adult references to make the adults happy, gross out humor to keep the older kids happy, and then it's all marketed as a family-friendly cartoon. But I don't think that Disney is a particularly bad offender. The Shrek franchise is probably the worst at being not particularly little-kid-friendly while still marketed towards little kids.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hergrace* 
I have a different reason to dislike I Disney. They have spent a lot of money and political energy to change copyright laws so that Steamboat Willie (the precursor to Mickey Mouse) remains protected by copyright. The end result has been horrible for independent artists.

I have mixed feelings about Pixar, too, having seen more than I wanted to of things I don't like behind the magic there, but at least their stories continue to move me.

That is a really, really good point. They've screwed over a lot of industries and people with their successful lobbying for chances in copyright laws.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't like the teen marriages, but I don't mind the princess stories. I prefer the Barbie movies because they tend to have more without marriage or even love and the themes are better. The songs in the older Disney movies are awesome and we watch them for those. They aren't ones that my dd returns to even though she likes princess themes, though she does love to read the books. I don't mind the marketing because everyone markets things, Disney just happens to be one of the more successful companies. I haven't noticed the toys inhibiting creativity but anything is possible.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

I hate Disney with a passion. We live in a Disney free household, and if I have anything to do with it my child will never go to Disneyland.

Disney movies whitewash other cultures. They exploit inappropriate gender stereotypes and beauty types. They make me mad...I seriously can't watch a Disney movie without getting







.

To be fair I am not a fan of media in general, and we do not own a television, but I would put Disney at the bottom of types of media in which I find anything redeemable. Plus Disney princesses make me uke.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
Flinstones and Jetsons were prime time TV shows, though. I'm sure lots of kids watched them, but they weren't "kids shows" the way that Dora and Arthur are. They certainly weren't for the same age kids that Dora and Arthur are for... those kids would have been in bed! That's like comparing The Simpsons or Family Guy to Dora and Arthur.

I dunno, I watched the Flinstones and Jetsons after school in the 70s and 80s. What about Bugs Bunny? You seriously don't see some very adult themes (albeit dressed up quite sarcastically) in those cartoons?

What about Scooby Doo? There are plenty of adult/teen themes in there too--although they'll go over the heads of most kids.

I disagree that Prime Time shows in the 50s and 60s were not for the entire family. There weren't dedicated kids networks. In fact, children's programming until the 80s was FAR FAR *more* commercial than anything out there today after legislation was passed.









True, companies did not have the marketing arm in the same way (lunchboxes and shirts, sure--but video games and books and all that? Maybe not). But I find it laughable when people say that kids' shows are MORE commerical now than they've ever been. Or that sarcasm and veiled cultural references to please adults is a recent invention. It's so not.

I had to sit through a semester of children's programming from early radio to the 1960s. It kind of obliterated a lot of my personal mythology about how "bad things are these days." And some of the horrific racism and sexism in some of the bugs bunny and Tom and Jerry cartoons (particularly from the WWII era) actually made me physically ill, because as a 20 year old (in the 1990s) I had NO CLUE that "kid cartoons" contained that. It makes sense (since it was okay culturally to drop the N-word and have people dress up in blackface and we all wanted to "kill the Japs", ect.) in the historical context but...

To be really honest with you, after seeing THAT, I find modern Disney in particular quite tame in comparison. (Though I still think most of it is crap). When Disney puts out their next song and dance crap animation where they have a song called, "The Only Good ******* is a Dead *******" (there is an equivalent Bugs Bunny episode, believe it or not, except due to the era they say "Japs") then I will concede that children's programming today is as bad or worse than it ever has been in the past.

Sadly, these days, it would not surprise me to find something like that is already happening, somewhere.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

Cheap cheap cheap junk in mass quantities all of which is produced in slave like conditions, often with child labor. The perfect example of consumerism and anti-green purchasing. The stuff is so junky it won't even last htriugh one child.

And I don't sell my kids. We are not adds for a company's products.

Their themes are too mature, too violent, and too sexist.

I grew up in Anaheim and went to Disneyland untold number of times. I think they've lost their soul.

As a nice librarian, I think they are the worst thing ever for creative expression and fair use because of their political theft of copyright law.

Finally, I am really unhappy that the won't let a Muslim employee wear a headscarf in public. Major stink at Disneyland right now. I am fine with short hair/ no pierced esrs whatever but a headscarf? Religious expression? Unaccepable.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

BTW, I am in no way implying that Disney did not take part in racist and propagandist cartoons--they most certainly did along with just about everyone else in the 40s. An ugly and sad truth in American history (can't speak if it happened elsewhere. I suspect, human nature being human nature, that it did).

But children's entertainment and programming has *never* been particularly "innocent" nor has it been uncommercial. It doesn't justify that it happens now, but I don't think Disney can be blamed for inventing the idea. Gives him a little too much credit, IMO.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I dunno, I watched the Flinstones and Jetsons after school in the 70s and 80s. What about Bugs Bunny? You seriously don't see some very adult themes (albeit dressed up quite sarcastically) in those cartoons?

What about Scooby Doo? There are plenty of adult/teen themes in there too--although they'll go over the heads of most kids.

I disagree that Prime Time shows in the 50s and 60s were not for the entire family. There weren't dedicated kids networks.

I don't think that prime time has ever been for 3 year olds, the way that your Dora and Arthur (your comparisons) are. Especially in the 50s and 60s when I think parents were much more strict about bedtimes than they are now. I definitely don't think that kids didn't watch. I just thought that your comparison was spurious, because I don't think that toddlers watched any of these shows in any real numbers. I think it's more appropriate to compare those shows to the prime time cartoons that are on now (which are also on in syndication earlier in the day, as the Jetsons and the Flinstones were in our childhood).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
In fact, children's programming until the 80s was FAR FAR *more* commercial than anything out there today after legislation was passed.









I'm not sure what legislation you're talking about? The only legislation I know of was in the early 80s when they made it legal for 1/2 hour toy commercials to exist. That's when the kinds of shows you're talking about came into being, and that's what most kids shows still are: just now they're usually marketed as educational because that's what parents want. I don't know of any tightening of FCC regulations about advertising to children since then.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
True, companies did not have the marketing arm in the same way (lunchboxes and shirts, sure--but video games and books and all that? Maybe not). But I find it laughable when people say that kids' shows are MORE commerical now than they've ever been. Or that sarcasm and veiled cultural references to please adults is a recent invention. It's so not.

The marketing of these shows and the related products to very young children (under 3) is very new. I recommend both Buy Buy Baby and Consuming Kids for more information on this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I had to sit through a semester of children's programming from early radio to the 1960s. It kind of obliterated a lot of my personal mythology about how "bad things are these days." And some of the horrific racism and sexism in some of the bugs bunny and Tom and Jerry cartoons (particularly from the WWII era) actually made me physically ill, because as a 20 year old (in the 1990s) I had NO CLUE that "kid cartoons" contained that. It makes sense (since it was okay culturally to drop the N-word and have people dress up in blackface and we all wanted to "kill the Japs", ect.) in the historical context but...

To be really honest with you, after seeing THAT, I find modern Disney in particular quite tame in comparison. (Though I still think most of it is crap). When Disney puts out their next song and dance crap animation where they have a song called, "The Only Good ******* is a Dead *******" (there is an equivalent Bugs Bunny episode, believe it or not, except due to the era they say "Japs") then I will concede that children's programming today is as bad or worse than it ever has been in the past.

Sadly, these days, it would not surprise me to find something like that is already happening, somewhere.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with anything I'm talking about.

My issue is largely with marketing products to very young children who don't have the developmental ability to process information at a sophisticated enough level to understand what is happening. Heck, a lot of adults have a lot of trouble with this. The 0-3 market didn't exist 10 years ago, and now it's the most profitable demographic, earning over $2 billion a year. The Flinstones was certainly not aimed at an under 3 audience.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Howdy Doody and Bozo the Clown and Captain Kangaroo were decidedly commercial, as were many of the "local" kids shows specifically directed towards kids at home during the day (before the market started shrinking, thanks to the FCC amongst other agencies).

CTW was orginially formed to not be that way, but they have sold out along the way.

I don't think that children's programing (with the dubious exception of the early days of CTW) was ever "educational"--but marketers and producers will say whatever parents want to hear. This is not a new phenomenon. There may be more of a market for it these days because people will believe anything (OMG this video can make my baby into Einstein!) and they have more money to spend and less kids to spend it on (so they can spend more on each kid).

My main beef is about people implying that there were the Good Old Days in children's media where everyone was not out to make a buck on them. I think that people have always been out to make a buck. Or if they don't start out that way (like the company that first produced Sesame Street) they don't stay that way for long. It took CTW less than 25 years to sell out. I see just as much Elmo garbage on the shelves at Target as I do Disney stuff, and it's about the same quality.

I don't get people objecting to Disney "disnifying" fairy tales; you'd have to change a lot of it to get past the censors--then and now. I don't think anyone here at mothering would like to have their 3 year old (or probably even 5 year old) see a visual presentation of almost any "real" fairy tale anyway.

One of my pet peeves is romanticizing the past. Again, I am no Disneyphile who has a houseful of their stuff (frankly, it's too expensive and I am cheap). But on the other hand, I do find it annoying that people single Disney out as the main perpetrator of this stuff. They're not, and never have been. At least Disney started out as an entertainer and never claimed to be anything but--I'm always a little shocked that people get up in arms about Disney, but not the soulless sellout that PBS kids programming has become. To me, that's far more "offensive."

Or do they blame Disneycorp for that, like the devil made them do it?

I also get a little frustrated about the passing of the buck. As a parent, I decide what is bought by me and what I allow into my home. Not my 2 month old. I get that some people choose to be too nice to trash the Princess Vomitrocious sparkle wand and costume that Auntie Consumer bought for their kid's 3rd birthday, or put their foot down and be called ungrateful and inhospitable--but that *is* a choice. I also think that we give our kids far too little credit in thinking that just because they have an elmo figure in their hand that their brain will rot and they will be incapable of any play other than robotic mimicking of what is on TV.

Would I like to live in a non-consumerist society, sure. But it's not like you can't teach yourself and your kids to think critically despite it. (Or at least, you had better HOPE that you can, because unless you remove them from our current society, they're going to need those skills probably at some point in their lifetime.)


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

I don't mind Disney. I just try to stay away from the princess stuff b/c to me it screams "You need a man to be happy". But I never realized that until I was already married so i doubt my 2 year old will pick it up either. I love the music from almost all the movies though. I don't care if it makes me a horrible mother, "Under the Sea" is the best song ever.

I don't like Disneyland/world b/c I hate rides and hot weather (I hate 6 flags too). So if DD ever wants to go she's going with DH or gramma and grandpa.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

what i want to say is disney didnt make movies to entertain the kids. their motive was never that (no matter what they 'say'). it was always about profit and how to take over the market for them. of course walt disney loved children but business was about something quite different.
I recently read a very long, detailed biography of Walt Disney, and I simply don't think that's true. Well, I don't think it was entirely about the kids either - but I'd say Walt's driving aim, at least in the early part of his career, was to make _art_. And he did. Say what you will about Mickey cartoons, they took animation to a whole new level in terms of humour, playing with timing and gags and sound effects and image manipulation... everything. Looney Tunes was developed essentially in a scrambling effort to copy The Mouse - it was the gold standard of animation at that time. And Snow White? It was considered unthinkable that an audience - a largely adult audience - would sit through a full-length animated feature, much less engage with it. But they did. People cried. Nobody had ever cried at animation before - plus, the art was pretty stunning. It was groundbreaking. Fantasia? Pretty avant-garde stuff, really, and a genuine effort to bring culture to the masses. Disney planned to make heaps more of them, but it wasn't as commercially successful as Snow White.

Then they had to scale down the art style for financial reasons, and Disney got bored/disillusioned with the films and largely left them to his staff. So at that point, yes, it was about the money. But why did he want the money? To build Disneyland. And again, that wasn't about money or even just entertaining the kids. It was about creating the most perfect, complete, immersive environment possible. It was a control freak thing really, just as animation is - but that doesn't make it less artistic as a goal. And during the rest of his life Disney was never satisfied to give Disneyland's customers their bare money's worth. He was always fixing things that didn't really need fixing, making sure the carrousel horses were freshly repainted each day and other such details. It may have been a fixation on perfection for its own sake, not done for the love of Tiny Tim, but it wasn't just money-grubbing.

Lest I come across as a total Disney shill now, I think their stance on copyright is pretty horrific (although let's not forget to blame the government for agreeing to it!), and their made-in-China sweatshop products despicable. We're planning a trip to Disneyland next year, and I'll be in the rather odd position of refusing to buy any Mickey ears, corn dogs or Princess dresses while we're there for various ethical reasons. Also, some of their movies are rubbish, some are sexist, some are racist and some play havoc with history or literature in a way that irks me. Still, _some_ of their films number in my top 10. I sing Disney songs all the time. The Broadway version of The Lion King is, apparently, excellent. Give Kids the World is a highly cool charity. So... six of one, half a dozen of the other?


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I hate Disney with a passion. We live in a Disney free household, and if I have anything to do with it my child will never go to Disneyland.

*Disney movies whitewash other cultures. They exploit inappropriate gender stereotypes and beauty types. They make me mad...I seriously can't watch a Disney movie without getting







*.

To be fair I am not a fan of media in general, and we do not own a television, but I would put Disney at the bottom of types of media in which I find anything redeemable. Plus Disney princesses make me uke.











I wish I could say we're a Disney Free house, but my IL's send my kids Disney books often. At least they're the books and not the movies.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

We like their movies, especially the ones by Pixar and some of the older ones (Peter Pan, Lion King, Robin Hood, Jungle Book, Mary Poppins etc), though I really do like Princess & the Frog too!

I went to Disneyworld once and loved it - I'd love to take the boys someday when we have a bit more money.

But, we don't buy many of their toys, though ds1 does have cars sheets/comforter & a handful of cars toys. Mostly I avoid licensed stuff in general, whether its disney, pbs, nickolodeon or whatever.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't have a problem with Disney movies as a whole, but there are individual ones I have issues with.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I hate Disney with a passion. We live in a Disney free household, and if I have anything to do with it my child will never go to Disneyland.

Disney movies whitewash other cultures. They exploit inappropriate gender stereotypes and beauty types. They make me mad...I seriously can't watch a Disney movie without getting







.

To be fair I am not a fan of media in general, and we do not own a television, but I would put Disney at the bottom of types of media in which I find anything redeemable. Plus Disney princesses make me uke.

i totally agree. that plus the labor practices that many other folks spoke of, the absolute permeation of plastic crap that emerges with each new film, and the reduction of human creativity and complexity into the 'us vs. them' black and white viewpoint of pretty much everything.

even the plastic crap they sell is sexist. everything that comes out of disney also is severely lacking in class analysis. wealth is equated with happiness.

word cannot express how much i loathe disney, mainly for the pervasiveness of their skewed culture, and i feel that they have brainwashed countless children and furthered sexism in our society more than any other party.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Because this thread is, "Why do people dislike Disney" and not "What do people think of Disney" I won't go into detail. But not everyone here hates Disney.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There are things I don't like about Disney, particularly the commercialization, but I really love Disneyland and Disneyworld, and I do like a lot of the movies. So I have mixed feelings.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I don't hate Disney. I won't buy all the merchandise... but I don't buy any tv show merch. Nickelodean, pbs, whatever. I'm okay with the books since I prefer kiddo reading to watching shows and movies, but that is really the only thing I'd buy. I also give the character clothing and toys away as quickly as I can. She never wore her mickey mouse or sesame street clothes from my MIL. She has a whole box of plastic toys and TWO obnoxious singing elmos in the sunroom waiting to exit my house.

I don't think Disney is EVIL though. Lots of companies product crappy merchandise.

Besides, I have very fond memories of watching the movies growing up. Pocahontas was my FAVORITE movie for a good two years. Now, I did have some clothing and merchandise but I will say that it didn't make me think native americans are ugly for not looking like Pocahontas nor did it make me think I needed to be as skinny as her. Actually, I just loved the way her hair blew in the wind and I ADORED the tree. Still do adore the tree. I thought the racoon was adorable too... but I never wanted to go near them for real. Watching or not, merchandise or not... I still had a pretty firm grasp on reality and recognizing that what I see on a screen isn't necessarily right or kind or best.

I have disney cds and I play them often. I will crank them loud and rock out. A whole new world, circle of life... they aren't just some dumb song for the opening credits of a tv show... they are pretty great just on their own.

Kiddo will go to Disney someday. I take the parts of Disney I like and leave the rest, just like everything else in life. I think that is perfectly possible if I am doing my job as her parent and teaching her how to have a critical eye and value herself. I love the princess movies and NEVER thought I 'needed' a man or should change myself to get one. If I can understand that, there is no reason why I can't teach her that while also enjoying snow white with her.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

My DS was lost at Disneyworld for over an hour. It was his 5'th birthday. We went on a whim because we were nearby.
He got jammed in between a massive crowd of people going through the princess castle and was literally ripped away from us.

The 'security' chap that we were dealing with actually chuckled and said, "it's Disneyworld, nothing bad happens here!" Then he proceeded to ignore me and take reservations for the princess tea. Nobody would help me, there were FAMILIES strolling by and I was asking them "Have you seen my boy, he's lost, he's 5, he's wearing a hawaiian shirt, he's yay tall...." and they were turning their heads away from me. One lady said to me in a singsongy voice "That's why we have walkie-talkies!"
But the staff were the worst, they just kept telling me he was fine. (Fine! He's been gone for 25 minutes! ) I actually started to lose it badly at one point....everyone was just so casual, everyone was having a fun, normal day and I started questioning, maybe I'm the crazy one, maybe he's standing right here next to me, or maybe he never ever existed at all.....it was just a bad moment, I know, and I also know it was panic, fear and anger that fueled my temporary madness.

I was back and forth between the child find center (lost child center?) and the castle a dozen times. Each time I was told "sorry, but you'll have to leave your stroller outside" The stroller in question was a smallish thing, a Pliko, with my 3 y/o twins in/on it. DD was sound asleep and DS was hanging on for dear life. I had already lost one child in that hellhole and I'd be damned if I was going to lose any more. And they new I was looking for my child! I was so mad and broken feeling I honestly could have strangled every unhelpful person I encountered (and there were a lot).

It was horrid, horrid, horrid. Never in my life had I ever felt so low, that my child was so disposable, that he was so unimportant, they got his entrance fee and that's all they cared about. They refused to shut down the exit points. They refused to LOOK for him. And I was crying and screaming at anyone to help me look, my littler ones were crying, my DH was storming through the park screaming DS's name. It was like one of those nightmares where you're trying to run but you can't.

My child was found at the opposite end of the park by an elderly lady. How he got there is still a mystery, he said later that he talked to some nice people, but mostly he was pretty shaken.

We left the park immediately and have never bought, watched or promoted in any way another Disney product. I was done.

That's why I don't like Disney.
Sorry for the rant....I can't think about it without getting mad


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
My DS was lost at Disneyworld for over an hour.


Wow, that is so totally not my experience. We were there 18 months ago, dd2 was 8.5. Dh lost her (I was with dd1 on another ride), and called me. I told him to tell the nearest staff member. He did, they called who they needed to, reassured him, and she was back within 2 minutes. They were together before I got there a few minutes later.

I'm sorry your experience was so bad. I think I would have told them and then called 911 in front of them if they responded as they did you.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treeoflife3* 
I don't hate Disney. I won't buy all the merchandise... but I don't buy any tv show merch. Nickelodean, pbs, whatever. I'm okay with the books since I prefer kiddo reading to watching shows and movies, but that is really the only thing I'd buy. I also give the character clothing and toys away as quickly as I can. She never wore her mickey mouse or sesame street clothes from my MIL. She has a whole box of plastic toys and TWO obnoxious singing elmos in the sunroom waiting to exit my house.

I don't think Disney is EVIL though. Lots of companies product crappy merchandise.

Besides, I have very fond memories of watching the movies growing up. Pocahontas was my FAVORITE movie for a good two years. Now, I did have some clothing and merchandise but I will say that it didn't make me think native americans are ugly for not looking like Pocahontas nor did it make me think I needed to be as skinny as her. Actually, I just loved the way her hair blew in the wind and I ADORED the tree. Still do adore the tree. I thought the racoon was adorable too... but I never wanted to go near them for real. Watching or not, merchandise or not... I still had a pretty firm grasp on reality and recognizing that what I see on a screen isn't necessarily right or kind or best.

I have disney cds and I play them often. I will crank them loud and rock out. A whole new world, circle of life... they aren't just some dumb song for the opening credits of a tv show... they are pretty great just on their own.

Kiddo will go to Disney someday. I take the parts of Disney I like and leave the rest, just like everything else in life. I think that is perfectly possible if I am doing my job as her parent and teaching her how to have a critical eye and value herself. I love the princess movies and NEVER thought I 'needed' a man or should change myself to get one. If I can understand that, there is no reason why I can't teach her that while also enjoying snow white with her.

seriously all of this!! we owned all of the disney movies as a kid, my personal fav was the little mermaid. seriously we (i have 2 younger sisters) never played princess, ever much less disney princess. my kid sisters favorite movie forever was peter pan







i have only been to disneyland once and it was okay, fun- but i am not much for crowds and lines.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

oh and i won't step foot inside the disney store anymore. so much junk!!


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
My DS was lost at Disneyworld for over an hour.









HOW AWFUL!

That is just terrifying and horrifying and...

omg.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
My DS was lost at Disneyworld for over an hour. It was his 5'th birthday.

Oh, I am so sorry. I am glad your DS is OK, but that must have been terrifying to go through! Did you complain to the management? I'd go as high as possible until you got a satisfactory response- like an ENORMOUS written apology and implementation of child safety training for every single staff member.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm fine with most of their movies. I try to have our kids watch them when they are the right age though... and to be honest, our girls are only just getting to an age (5 and 6) where they can start to enjoy a selection of the movies.

People seem to feel that if it's Disney it's perfect for preschoolers. I'm of the opinion that most of their movies really aren't a good fit for the two and three year olds that are watching them. I actually thought that Toy Story 3 was a very grown up movie. If a child is the right age for a movie it's easy to just talk about any themes that you don't necessarily agree with, read the original book and compare it with the movie, etc.

Our kids have been to Disneyland twice. I've been to Disney World twice too (as a childless adult). It's not my idea of a dream vacation, but it's fun. We were happy with our experience and I'm glad that we took our kids. We'll likely go again sometime when the boys are a little older.

Compared to other parks and resorts, Disney is extremely accommodating. I've heard mostly good things about their ability to accommodate people with disabilities, severe food allegories, health concerns, etc. People who have limited options when it comes to family vacations can often do Disney when they can't do much else.

We just don't buy the licensed crap, and when it's gifted it often disappears from the house after a short stay. There was a time when Disney controlled their product licensing to some degree, but now I think they'll give a license to anybody who can pay for it. When I was little, you had to go to a Disney Park to get most Disney stuff. There was very little available in stores.

I don't think Disney is any more evil than any other giant corporation whose goal it is to make obscene amounts of money for their investors. At least with Disney, we enjoy some of their stuff. I hate most Nick Jr shows, and their junky licensed products that are everywhere. I'd watch Peter Pan or Aladdin or Beauty and the Beast over Dora ANY DAY and DH can't stand Angeline Ballerina.


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## Purplegal (Jul 30, 2008)

We Love Disney...and like PP that's all I will say.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Well said, ChetMC. I agree with just about everything you say. I don't think that Disney is any worse than any other huge company trying to make a lot of money. That's why they exist. I do have a problem with their marketing to very young children. I don't "hate" Disney, but we keep everything that smacks of licensing out of the house while my kids are young, before they're developmentally ready to sift through the information that I think they should have to be informed consumers. And, no, you can't just "talk about it" until kids reach a certain age of reason. The book "Into the Minds of Babes" (which is pretty pro-TV, btw) talks in some depth about all the studies of what children understand when, and it pegs this as closer to 7. Since I don't keep my kids locked in the basement, I don't know if we'll realistically be able to carry on that long (especially since I'll have 3 kids of 3 different ages), but we'll do our best.


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## ancoda (Oct 17, 2005)

One of my big problems with them is I really think the story lines have gone way downhill and yet the marketing of them is getting Huger and huger.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I was making fun of the "Toy Story 3" stuff at the store the other day. The character dolls are the EXACT SAME as the ones from Toy Story 1 and 2...but they're marked up and whatnot because they're from the NEWEST movie!!!!!!!









This is a huge part of the problem I have with them. We already have the toys from Toy story 1, but now my kids have seen the ones for Toy story 3 and have to have them now. Um.... they are the exact same as the ones you have. There are a couple of new characters like the weird mean bear, but those are not even the ones they want. They need a new woody and a new buzz lightyear, and then throw a fit when I tell them they do not need a toy they already own.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
My DS was lost at Disneyworld for over an hour. It was his 5'th birthday. We went on a whim because we were nearby.
He got jammed in between a massive crowd of people going through the princess castle and was literally ripped away from us.

The 'security' chap that we were dealing with actually chuckled and said, "it's Disneyworld, nothing bad happens here!" Then he proceeded to ignore me and take reservations for the princess tea. Nobody would help me, there were FAMILIES strolling by and I was asking them "Have you seen my boy, he's lost, he's 5, he's wearing a hawaiian shirt, he's yay tall...." and they were turning their heads away from me. One lady said to me in a singsongy voice "That's why we have walkie-talkies!"
But the staff were the worst, they just kept telling me he was fine. (Fine! He's been gone for 25 minutes! ) I actually started to lose it badly at one point....everyone was just so casual, everyone was having a fun, normal day and I started questioning, maybe I'm the crazy one, maybe he's standing right here next to me, or maybe he never ever existed at all.....it was just a bad moment, I know, and I also know it was panic, fear and anger that fueled my temporary madness.

I was back and forth between the child find center (lost child center?) and the castle a dozen times. Each time I was told "sorry, but you'll have to leave your stroller outside" The stroller in question was a smallish thing, a Pliko, with my 3 y/o twins in/on it. DD was sound asleep and DS was hanging on for dear life. I had already lost one child in that hellhole and I'd be damned if I was going to lose any more. And they new I was looking for my child! I was so mad and broken feeling I honestly could have strangled every unhelpful person I encountered (and there were a lot).

It was horrid, horrid, horrid. Never in my life had I ever felt so low, that my child was so disposable, that he was so unimportant, they got his entrance fee and that's all they cared about. They refused to shut down the exit points. They refused to LOOK for him. And I was crying and screaming at anyone to help me look, my littler ones were crying, my DH was storming through the park screaming DS's name. It was like one of those nightmares where you're trying to run but you can't.

My child was found at the opposite end of the park by an elderly lady. How he got there is still a mystery, he said later that he talked to some nice people, but mostly he was pretty shaken.

We left the park immediately and have never bought, watched or promoted in any way another Disney product. I was done.

That's why I don't like Disney.
Sorry for the rant....I can't think about it without getting mad










Just so you know, this is NOT supposed to be their response. I think it was a case of being unfortunate enough to lose your ds when those knuckleheads were working. There are a whole slew of stories out there of lost children and the cast members absolutely swinging (calmly) into action and not stopping until the child was found. Protocol was NOT followed. I'm sorry you had that experience. '

Also, FWIW, you must have been at a busy time or a busy day (Maybe an extra magic hour day?) or during some special event for it to be that crowded in and around the castle. People who tend to go once on a whim often have complaints like this (not your fault, just saying, it can be miserably crowded and murderously hot at certain times of the year.) I put a lot of planning and it's honestly a TOTALLY different trip when we go at less crowded times. ALso, if you get a bad CM, or a whole slew of them in your case, DEFINITELY complain all the way to the top. That's not acceptable and they should NOT get away with that.

As for my opinion of Disney? I agree with others about the ridiculous marketing/running things into the ground and the constant cranking out parts two, three, four, seventeen of movies. With a very few exceptions, those without sequels are more special and nostalgic. Making a million sequels kinda kills the magic. I'm careful about the messages in the Disney movies but I just talk it over with ds and I honestly don't think he's processing it the way I do. We don't feel the need to own every disney movie/thing made ever. I don't buy things with disney characters plastered all over them but I'm like that with all characters.

I don't agree with their business ethics but then I don't agree with most big business ethics.

I absolutely love WDW, though, and the absolute ease of my vacation when I'm there. The feeling that every. single. cast member. will bend over backwards to make my trip wonderful. The special attention to every single detail you could ever imagine and then some. That's what Walt's vision for the theme parks was. Sure, you get a bad egg here and there but, and maybe I'm just lucky, we've been overall floored by the customer service there. We don't get to go often, though, and I think that preserves the magic for us. I just took my ds for the first time in July and am looking forward to doing so again someday. Again, we don't go bonkers buying merchandise there. Ds's favorite purchase from the trip? A toy monorail which I think is pretty darn cool to add to his transportation toys. We do make the effort to make the vacation special together time enjoying what we call the pixie dust and not just indulging in constant purchasing. Just my two cents.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Another awesome thing about the parks - kids with allergies. Ours are gluten/egg free, and when we reserved Christmas dinner, they took note of that. At the dinner, they mentioned it to us before we had a chance to say anything, and the chef came out to us and took us around the buffet to show what was safe and what wasn't. They also had GF dinner rolls and a GF dessert which apparently was awesome (so awesome they wouldn't share







).


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

For me, it comes down to esthetics. I think Disney art is ugly. It's not my cup of tea. I grew up on the "color" fairy books of Andrew Lang and my ideas of fairytale art were shaped early on by the main illustrator of those books, H.J Ford.

After years of this sort of thing at an impressionable age:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...iw=988&bih=638

...Disney has always looked cheap and junky to me.

(In terms of modern classic fairytale illustrators, I prefer Trina Schart Hyman.)

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...iw=988&bih=638

And yeah, the dead mother storylines, the relentless marketing, etc. But really, it's the look.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

For me it is definitely the marketing. I am SOOOO sick of having to search to find any simple child's item that is plain (from potty seats to underwear to rubber boots) 'cause it seems the easiest & by far most prevalant items are all branded.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Disney princess movies make me crazy. Where else do you consistently find movies where the heroine is (1) young (2) beautiful and (3) STUPID and the villianess is (1) old (2) ugly and (3) smart.

My boys have never seen Little Mermaid, for example. What a giant load of $*%. A woman removes her voice and leaves her family to find her true love who falls in love with her because she's beautiful and can't speak?!?

Awesome.

I could go on and on.

My boys do like Disneyland and once we went to Disneyworld. That was fun, but they did say they didn't feel like they were "anywhere." So now we go on real vacations to real places...


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

STUPID
Ahem. "Consistently" stupid? Ariel, yes. Belle, no... Tiana, no... Pocahontas, no... Jasmine, eh, savvy enough to recognise Aladdin and nearly trick Jafar, not too dim... Aurora, sheltered but with no particular evidence of stupidity, as they even changed the plot so she pricked her finger under a spell, not through clumsiness... Cinderella, no... Mulan, no... who am I missing? Oh, Snow White. Not stupid either. Really, Ariel's the only one who makes me cringe (unless you count a bit of cynical modern cringing at Aurora and Cinderella singing about dreams).

Maleficent was scary-looking, but not ugly per se; ditto the evil step-mother in Snow White (in her non-hag form, obviously!).

Also, if I can be permitted further nitpicking - Erik fell in love with Ariel because of her _voice_. He resisted falling in love with her in her human form out of loyalty to the memory of that voice, making him one of the less shallow of the (earlyish) Disney princes. It was the _evil witch_ who suggested to Ariel that men like their women silent, although Ariel was undeniably idiotic to agree with her. Then again, her father hadn't shown much respect for her opinions, even though he could have granted her wishes easily, so - there ya go.


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
they encourage a (imo) false reality of childhood.
...
they are also way to big a company, they control too much of the media presented to children.
nak


Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
it was always about profit and how to take over the market for them.



Mickey Mouse Monopoly. A former colleague uses it in her women's study course. A lot of the students totally reject the film, as it disrupts their own sense of their childhood. You can see a free, full-length preview at the link.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Another awesome thing about the parks - kids with allergies. Ours are gluten/egg free, and when we reserved Christmas dinner, they took note of that. At the dinner, they mentioned it to us before we had a chance to say anything, and the chef came out to us and took us around the buffet to show what was safe and what wasn't. They also had GF dinner rolls and a GF dessert which apparently was awesome (so awesome they wouldn't share







).

THIS is one reason I would look forward to going to DisneyWorld.


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## mbm (Jun 14, 2006)

I actually haven't seen a Disney film since Aladdin (not counting Pixar).

I won't prevent DD from seeing a Disney movie, nor do I plan to go out of my way to make sure she does. And I am OK with her playing with other people's plastic princess paraphernalia, I just don't want to buy it.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ASusan* 


Mickey Mouse Monopoly. A former colleague uses it in her women's study course. A lot of the students totally reject the film, as it disrupts their own sense of their childhood. You can see a free, full-length preview at the link.

So I sat down and watched this. I found it by and large thin and insubstantial. The idea that once a corporation gets above a certain size it has an .... obligation? moral imperative? to become educational in the 'right' way is pretty funny. I think that instead of spending so much time complaining about how Disney represents people/events/whatever badly people should instead work towards having the representations they want. Disney *is* a corporation and they absolutely are focused on making money. If people want to have another focus in their movies they can go do that.

My family has always loved Disney. I grew up with a mother who was a self-proclaimed Disney fanatic. You know what? We owned the movies and there were a couple of framed art pieces and one or two toys. My mom had one Mickey Mouse shirt. One can hardly say that Disney dominated our lives. My opinions of race relations are *not* informed by Disney, thankyouverymuch. I'm well aware that they have some toxic views of other races. But uhm, the fact that I like the movies does not eliminate my ability to think. It's a fantasy. I'm aware of that. I don't think that it was a freak accident that I can figure that out and I think my kids will too.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

My best friend despises Disney World and Land. She went multiple times as a child and a couple of months ago with a coworker and she just hates it. We've joked about them putting her face up at the park entrance so they won't ever let her back in. She finds it overcrowded and "annoying." I love Disney theme parks and have always loved going.

Our family just got back from Disney World a few days ago. It was DH's first time. He said he wouldn't blink an eye if he never went again. I found the customer service to be lacking in terms of how great it was about 6 years ago but I think it's great fun for the kids and family.

That being said, Disney movies annoy me.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
My child was found at the opposite end of the park by an elderly lady. How he got there is still a mystery, he said later that he talked to some nice people, but mostly he was pretty shaken.

We left the park immediately and have never bought, watched or promoted in any way another Disney product. I was done.

That's why I don't like Disney.
Sorry for the rant....I can't think about it without getting mad









Oh I am so so sorry. I have nightmares like this.


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## Qbear'smama (Jul 15, 2008)

DD is 4 and pretty into the Disney princesses and we are heading to DW on Saturday, but I also have a love/hate relationship with Disney.

DD never had character clothing as a baby and learned about Disney princesses in preschool (started around 3) and she started learning about them from her peers, she actually knew the names of the princesses and could ID them without having even seen the movies (she does this now with Hannah Montana







) so when she started getting into it, I allowed her to do so. I agree with what PPs have said about the movies, some are good, some are just weird (pinocchio, so bizarre) we do love the Pixar films, but we do draw the line and try to teach DD to be critical of some things, not so much the messages in the movies at her age, but the merchandising, definitely. I have explained to her that no, she cannot have that Disney item because it is low quality and she gets that. She did not fight me on getting a Disney backpack for school because I showed her how the zippers snapped off her old one and how poorly made it was. We also refuse to buy or rent any of those straight-to-dvd craptastic sequels to the original movies.

Once DD got into the Disney characters/movies, I did buy some character clothes, mainly pjs or underwear. At that point I noticed that the clothing is often low quality (bought some Disney princess underwear, terrible!) AND how gendered the clothing always is. DD loved "Cars" as a toddler, but because it was considered a "boy" movie, all the clothes associated with it were VERY boyish, like no way a girl could ever like that movie or its male characters; all "girl" clothes for Toy Story are of Jesse, "boy" clothes are Woody and Buzz. I hate that script of "girls like these characters, boys like these characters" the kids internalize that and it really bothers me. I get that they want to market the crap out of everything, but if they would make it more gender-neutral I wouldn't hate it that much.

Since we don't push the Disney stuff, just go along with what DD is interested in, I feel like she'll get over it soon and we'll keep talking to her about it and helping her develop a critical perspective about the films, the merchandise and the Disney corporation in general. (For the record, I wanted to go to Iceland for vacation this year, but DD wanted to go to Disney and we figured, why not, we've got a new baby coming, let it be her consolation trip!







Iceland next year for sure!!







)


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
So I sat down and watched this. I found it by and large thin and insubstantial. The idea that once a corporation gets above a certain size it has an .... obligation? moral imperative? to become educational in the 'right' way is pretty funny.
Unfortunately it is a common view that giant corporations have no moral imperative to do anything but chase the almighty dollar. I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. I just watched the movie Flow last night about the privatization of water for example...and how this necessary resource is being denied to people because they can't pay for something that used to be free. That SHOULD be free. Disney has a choice with what ethics to value in each and every movie they make. That they choose to push a shallow gendered narriative is unfortunate to say the least.

I think that instead of spending so much time complaining about how Disney represents people/events/whatever badly people should instead work towards having the representations they want. Disney *is* a corporation and they absolutely are focused on making money. If people want to have another focus in their movies they can go do that.
Umm, yeah that is exactly why we are a Disney free household. Which is rather the point of this thread. I think Disney is the devil therefore we boycott Disney. I see no need to replace Disney with something "better" because I am trying to avoid my kid watching any TV as long as possible.

My family has always loved Disney. I grew up with a mother who was a self-proclaimed Disney fanatic. You know what? We owned the movies and there were a couple of framed art pieces and one or two toys. My mom had one Mickey Mouse shirt. One can hardly say that Disney dominated our lives. My opinions of race relations are *not* informed by Disney, thankyouverymuch. I'm well aware that they have some toxic views of other races. But uhm, the fact that I like the movies does not eliminate my ability to think. It's a fantasy. I'm aware of that. I don't think that it was a freak accident that I can figure that out and I think my kids will too.
Your ability to think usually comes after these movies have been internalized. What kids think of as "normal" is shaped by what they see...in many cases...largely in the media. For some kids Disney plays a big part of that. I can't count how many times, for example, my younger cousins used to ask me when I was getting married...because they were trained by Disney that marriage was the most important thing that can happen to a girl. Its the end of every freaking story, bleah. Later maybe you make better sense of it; but the "I did it and I turned out ok" is really never a very strong position to be taking in an argument about, well, anything. Just ask my MIL lol!


Its akin to Barbie in my eyes. When I was a kid my mom made darn sure to drum into my head that Barbie's proportions were unnatural. Intellectually I knew it but emotionally I sure wanted to look like Barbie. I see a similar thing with many of the underlying themes in the Disney movies. Especially in regards to the gendering, which is my hill to die on.

I also used the movie Mickey Mouse Monopoly in my classes (when we did Imperialism usually), and also had a very strong reaction from the students. They were completely incredulous that anyone could have a problem with something they considered to be a pure and sacrosanct part of their childhoods. That in itself would be enough to convince me that Disney was dangerous. Any franchise that sells itself so well that a critical analysis of their content is seen as culturally objectionable is damn scary.


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## kimsmarkin (Sep 22, 2010)

Because the market the hell of it. The stories are tan-tan - some are honest, some not. But every single thing is marketed under the umpteenth degree. And the thing is of poor quality that breaks easily. So I do not like because it shows what I consider gross consumption.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I also used the movie Mickey Mouse Monopoly in my classes (when we did Imperialism usually), and also had a very strong reaction from the students. They were completely incredulous that anyone could have a problem with something they considered to be a pure and sacrosanct part of their childhoods. That in itself would be enough to convince me that Disney was dangerous. Any franchise that sells itself so well that a critical analysis of their content is seen as culturally objectionable is damn scary.

I think there are very good arguments against Disney. I don't think this documentary made them. I don't think that Disney is pure or sacrosanct, I just think that criticism should be more substantial and less handwavey. Maybe if the documentary spent less time on showing pictures of entranced movie-watching children it would have had time to do a better job.









I think the main thing this documentary did right was the concrete examples of how negative animal characters are very clearly representing PoC. That was the most specific, substantial criticism in it.

And as for "I came out ok" I have yet to see any actual evidence that the generation post-Disney commercialism (mine) is substantially more sexist/more racist than the previous generations and sexism and racism are two of the biggest problems with Disney materials. It isn't just me. Commercialism is a huge problem across the board and Disney is part of that, but I think it would be nearly impossible to tease out how big of a problem when everything else is going down the same path. My weak media education has me thinking that Disney was part of the early steps of this but far from the only culprit--however they have been one of the most _successful_ which makes them the biggest target.


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