# Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?



## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

This is not meant to be a debate. I just wanted to see what the largest reason is for people eating animals or animal products. So tell me what is the biggest reason you arent vegan or vegetarian.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

you don't have a button for "i was vegetarian for ten years and vegan on and off for two or three, but then i moved in with a meat eater and started craving bites of his hamburgers after he got me pregnant"!









i am planning on going back veg once the babe is out, though- which should be any day now. my meat cravings have subsided since i got into my third trimester, anyway.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## Casual Storm (Apr 9, 2003)

Humans are evolutionarily designed to be omnivores -just look at our teeth. We need vitamin B12 (meat) and omega-3 fatty acids (fish and eggs) to be optimally healthy, among things. I know flaxseed and walnuts have precursors to omega-3s like DHA, but the amount that is actually converted is very small. Of course, I don't think humans need to eat meat as often as they do, and I don't think that gives humans the right to treat animals inhumanely that are being raised for food or during the slaughtering process. I do think most dairy and meat nowadays isn't nearly as healthy as they were years ago, but that is the fault of human industry/farming practices, not our biology, and should be changed. There are places where you can buy organic grassfed beef and dairy products, you just have to look for it.
For more info on why vegan/vegetarian may not be the healthiest choice, click here:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

No option really fits me, either. I don't identify myself as a vegetarian. I believe small amounts of animal products are healthy, but on most days, I don't eat meat, 1) because I don't like it much, and 2) because I try to eat only free-range, organic meat and it's expensive. I do eat a lot of eggs and dairy products, but I try also only to eat organic when I eat these products as well. As much as possible, I try to eat a "cruelty-free" diet, but admittedly, I have a long way to go.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I voted that I like the taste.

I greatly limit my animal products: no poultry, pork, beef. I use a limited amt of organic dairy, a very limited amt of non-organic dairy (dd won't eat the organic cheese







, and we eat the mainstream ice cream), and a moderate amt of organic, free range eggs. I eat one portion of seafood each week. I have absolutely no "defense" for eating the seafood, except that I







LOVE







it! I do not miss eating poultry, pork, or beef, but I would miss seafood so, so much. It has been my favorite since I was a child. I simply adore it. Can't say enough good about it


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

I tried to be a vegetarian for awhile, because I think that the healthiest diet is composed mostly of raw fruits and vegs







I was trying to follow this diet Raw I still love fresh carrot juice and my toddlers like fresh juice.









For me, I feel better when I eat meat. I tend to get low iron even if I eat loads of spinach.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I voted, but nothing really fit me.

I believe humans were created omnivors, and part of the reason animals were created is to be eaten.

Also, meat is yummy.









My dh would be a vegetarian, though, happily. Not because of any moral reason. He just likes vegetables and grains better. If left to himself, he'd eat rice and cooked veggies all the time, and no protien at all.


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## mom at home (Nov 19, 2001)

None of the choices fit me either. We eat meat, but a limited amount, and generally organic when we do. I was a vegetarian for many years, but decided to start eating a small amount of meat when trying to conceive and thereafter. I felt my body needed some meat protein. Also, my oldest dd loves meat. So, I'm not going to make that decision for her when I feel like high quality meat in moderation is okay. My younger dd doesn't like meat much and generally chooses not to eat it. That's fine with me, too.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

hmmm. i voted for healthiest for me, but was pretty disappointed overall with the choices. I agree with the sentiments of kms1s, but also, I was a veggie for 8 years. Mostly for political and animal rights reasons. then while attending a school for earth living practices, the teacher felt it was necessary for the class to understand what it means to kill something you are going to eat. So he arranged with one of the regular families involved in the school who raises chickens to have 2 brought to the class live. A few of the adults were given the opportunity to kill the chickens if they wished. I agreed, and after a ceremony that honored the animals, twisted its neck (with help, because i wasn't strong enough). It was *very*very* hard to (spiritually, emotionally). We then learned how to dress the birds and used every part of its body, bones, feathers, etc... This had a profound effect on me. Rather than turning me off meat, it made me grateful for the gift of the animal and also the realization that just because plants dont' move or scream, they too are being killed. So, I eat meat, I eat plants. I deeply am grateful and appreciative of the lives taken so I can live. And, I eat 90-95% organic, free range, etc...


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## malamamama (May 13, 2003)

I didn't vote because I thought the choices were.....limiting. Aside from the choice of "I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat", I thought the choices indicated that meat eaters are uneducated about their choices and decisions.

I believe and feel that eating in moderation is key to optimal health for me and my family. Too much meat would definitely wreak havoc, but my "output" shows that my body (and my family's) actually metabolizes meat well. I do eat mostly local, healthy meats though. And I really listen to my body. Sometimes beans and tofu are the call, sometimes fish, sometimes a big heavy steak. Always....fresh fruits, vegetables, grains and lots of water!

"Eat Right for Your Type" suggests that different blood types metabolize some food better than others. This rings true with me and my family being "O" types.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

I agree that the choices are limiting, but the OP is vegan and writing from her POV. I would have voted, "Because I don't think there is anything wrong with meat." if that had been an option. I believe humans are omniverous. I believe that modern food industry has altered our food production radically, in ways that are cruel to our fellow living things and unhealthy to ourselves. This applies to both our plant foods and our animal foods. I believe that we eat more meat than we need in America.

I also believe that different diets work for different people. As an example, my dh is allergic to eggs and to most legumes, and he has health problems if he doesn't get enough protein. If he were vegan, the quantities of nuts and soy he would have to consume would throw his diet into an unhealthy balance. Even if he were only vegetarian, he would end up eating far too much dairy. But there are other people who really don't do well with meat and/or dairy, and I'm all for them not eating it.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I voted "like the taste" cuz i do, but that's not really the reason. Like PP, i was veg for about 10 yrs, then moved in w/ a heavy carnivore and got lazy.

After moving out, I continued to eat meat, but very very rarely, and never ever cooked it. So at times in my life when I am generally cooking / eating at home, I am basically veg.

Now is not one of those times. I am very proud of myself if I manage to cook once a week. So, for the purposes of eating out in my neighborhood, I could spend close to $10 on a veg Indian or Thai dinner, or I could spend less than half that on a meal that includes meat. I'm not rationalizing. I realize that if it was important enough to me, I would either prioritze spending more $$ on food or more time on cooking. But that is my reason, not reflected in your poll.

I really hope to become much more veg as my life gets more sane, and to raise ds mostly veg.


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## Truvie (May 4, 2004)

I was a vegetarian for about four years, after watching a PETA video on factory farming. I eat meat now, mostly because I have serious cravings when I'm pregnant, but also because we raise our own animals now (except cattle, but I just bought a book on raising grass-fed beef, so we might do that next year). Factory farming horrifies me, but raising animals on pasture for our own consumption does not, I don't know why -- maybe because I was raised in 4H.

Truvie


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

this is the perfect thread fo rme right now!!!

I am almost ( I know ther is no almost) vegan. No dairy, but the meat has been the hardest to give up. I have been trying for over 10 years and still can't quite do it. I just like the taste. I hate the taste of all other protein sources besides peanuts, and garbanzos but only in my homemade hummus.

Tonight DD had to pee so we made a quick stop at my parents' house. they were grilling steaks. Guess how many I ate? One and a half. I can't stop myuself! SO, amybe my body needs soemthing in it. But my stomach is killing me right about now. Ughhh


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

I also didn't think the poll choices reflected a comprehensive view on why people eat meat. I have severely limit the amount of red meat I eat because I didn't want to eat factory meat and organic and free range meat is expensive. I usually eat mostly vegetarian, with occasional "white Meat" protien (poultry, fish and seafood). I carried that philosophy into my most recent pregnancy and SURPRISE I turned up severely anemic, so I have re-introduced red meat 2-3 times per week for dietary reasons. I do believe that we as humans are meant to eat a wide variety of food sources, including animal meat, so I don't have a moral objection to eating meat. But I do believe that our current practices are overall inhuman and affect the nutritional quality of our food, so it is almost a "why bother" proposition. Once the baby comes I will re-assess.


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## because (Sep 11, 2003)

We eat meat that we hunt (venison, turkey, and a rare pheasant). You couldn't naturally be a veg in MI if you only consumed local food.

Occasionally, we'll have organic chicken - 1x/mo - but it's store bought. Dairy and eggs are also store bought.


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## Tiskin (Jul 5, 2004)

I'm a vegitarian. I think I should be a vegan but just don't have the discipline to cut out all the dairy and eggs too.
Maybe someday I will but for now, I just try not to think about those poor chickens in the small, crowded cages who have never been outside in their entire life


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I'm sorry. I had to vote for "vegans are weirdos". I couldn't resist. I'm a vegetarian, btw


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kms1s*
For more info on why vegan/vegetarian may not be the healthiest choice, click here:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm

I just finished the article and there was not one nutritional reason why being a vegetarian was unhealthy. It should be titled "The Myths of Veganism" since many of the myths are answered with suggestions of eating dairy or eggs. Both dairy and eggs (sometimes one but not the other but if both are cut out, that makes it a vegan, not vegetarian diet) are included in the vegetarian diet. It even calls Indians "vegan" when their diet is rich in dairy.

I also found this very interesting.

Quote:

First and foremost is our stomach's production of hydrochloric acid, something not found in herbivores.
. When I was in high school, I volunteered for a class experiment with 3 other students. We swallowed a string with a food based dissolvable weight on the end and then pulled the string out and tested it for HCL. For some odd reason, my HCL level was really low and even all along the whole string. It's supposed to start off weak and get stronger the lower into the stomach you go. So I guess my body isn't made to digest meat. I'm type O too (the ones who are supposed to have lots of stomach acid).


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I tried going vegetarian for a while when I was a teenager, and it was really difficult for me. I grew up in a meat and potatoes household, and I love meat.

I'm slowly cutting out a lot of meat from my diet, and leaning more and more toward going vegetarian, both for health and humanitarian reasons. I don't think that I'm quite ready to make the jump to being 100% vegetarian, but I'm slowly getting there, and I'm definitely much more conscious of my eating habits.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I didn't vote, as my reason wasn't there. The healthiest reason comes close, but I know my body is better off without meat in every way except for one thing - iron. I have an iron problem, it drops very fast. I was a vegetarian for years and became very sick. I started taking iron supplements but they bound me up. Also, you can't take them for long, and during the off periods my iron dropped.

No other food seemed to bring it back up or maintain it. I tried, because I am an animal activist and a Buddhist to boot (no harm to sentient beings and all). So, I intend to go veggie again soon, but will stay eating fish, unfortunately, and just supplement now and again.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

My main reason isn't on your list. My main reason is that I don't think it's any more immoral to kill animals than it is to kill plants. Plants are living things, too, just like animals. We have to kill and eat living things in order to survive.

My secondary reason is that I'm a very picky eater, and meat is one of the few things I enjoy. I don't like beans or most nuts, or any of the other vegetarian sources of protein. I voted "I like the taste of meat too much to stop eating it."

I do not support factory farming. I eat only organic, free-range meat.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I voted that I felt it was the healthiest diet for me (for where I am in my life now). I should also say that I was a vegetarian for many years, & started to eat a bit of meat when I was pregnant with my first. Also, DH is very convinced that eating a bit of red meat is good for him (low iron thing)- he was a vegetarian for a few years, too, btw. We try & get the best possible meat we can- finding organic is always a nice surprise. And we eat reef fish about once a week (Great Barrier Reef, that is







). Our eggs are our own, & most dairy stuff comes from a local organic place. Tonight we ate vegetarian- fresh corn was our protein source. Not tops, but we'll do something different tomorrow.

I've thought about the raw foods diet a number of times, mostly because it makes sense to me. I guess I've never thought I had the willpower to carry it thru. I think humans are built to crave things like simple carbohydrates (sugars), protein, & fats, based on our evolutionary history. Hence, so much food available today makes it tough to make good choices..........

my two bobs worth anyway.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

I eat meat because I believe it is the healthiest way to eat for most people. We eat free range, organic meat, eggs and milk. After reading the article in Mothering about Soy, I am inclined to not eat soy anymore except for organic soy. Not sure about Boca burgers which I happen to love.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kms1s*
Humans are evolutionarily designed to be omnivores...

...what she said, and that what the next poster said: I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with eating meat, given that we are animals too.

I didn't vote in the poll either. Nothing seemed to fit.

I don't think vegetarianism is unhealthy or anything. I know a vegan diet can provide all of the nutrients a human needs. I just think it's a personal choice. And this choice can change during a lifetime. I know quite a few former vegetarians, and quite a few former omnivores.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

I didn't take the poll because it was obviously biased.

I was a vegetarian for years, but with my pregnancy developed really intense cravings for red meat. Turned out I had severe anemia.

Even now, if i don't eat animal products ocasionally I get sick. We eat flesh about 0nce a week.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I can't vote on this poll either. Kms1 covered much of the reasons we eat meat in this family. Sustainer covered a few more.

I don't believe "animals were created to be eaten" except in that every living thing on this planet is eaten by something. "The One Life Feeds On Itself"--chapter title of an interesting book of essays on Motherhood. I don't do Creation, but there most certainly is a natural cycle of life and death of which we are a part, no matter how much our culture tries to deny that.

Also and somewhat an aside:

It is entirely possible to write a poll that covers the full spectrum of reasons for something. I find the concept that the OP made a biased poll because she is a Vegan herself to be insulting--to her. Someone who can make such a decision for well thought out reasons, which I presume her to be, can also figure out valid reasons for the "opposing" viewpoint. I am frequently disappointed in RL polls too. The bias of the originators of the polls should be undetectable if a valid result is truly desired.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
...what she said, and that what the next poster said: I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with eating meat, given that we are animals too.

I didn't vote in the poll either. Nothing seemed to fit.

I don't think vegetarianism is unhealthy or anything. I know a vegan diet can provide all of the nutrients a human needs. I just think it's a personal choice. And this choice can change during a lifetime. I know quite a few former vegetarians, and quite a few former omnivores.

Ditto.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I was a vegetarian for a long time, too. I still eat mostly veg, but I listen to my body and eat meat whenever I want to and anyone else here, including my children, is "allowed" to too.

One of the huge deciding factors for me was that I thought it was important to share freely and gratefully when offered food by dear friends and family. I have no moral problems with meat-eating. I decided to make it a non-issue.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meiri*
It is entirely possible to write a poll that covers the full spectrum of reasons for something. I find the concept that the OP made a biased poll because she is a Vegan herself to be insulting--to her.

Are you referring to what I wrote? If you I'm afraid you've misunderstood. I wrote:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *misfit*
the OP is vegan and writing from her POV

I wrote absolutely nothing about whether sebastiansmommy could have assumed another point-of-view. What she _can_ do is hers to decide and not mine to judge.

My statement was that sebastiansmommy is a vegan and the poll is written from a vegan POV.

Thanks for letting me clear that up.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I agree with Meiri that it should be possible for a vegan to write a poll that isn't so anti-omnivore. We shouldn't have to choose between things like 'I think all other animals were put on this Earth to serve ME' and 'I just don't know any better.' You know? It IS insulting to us.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I'm mostly vegetarian but eat a little meat now and then if my body needs it or someone cooks it and offers. I love beans, rice, veggies.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I just finished the article and there was not one nutritional reason why being a vegetarian was unhealthy. It should be titled "The Myths of Veganism" since many of the myths are answered with suggestions of eating dairy or eggs.

ITA.
That article was very misleading, and a little alarmist. I was born and raised in a place where we had a saying, "You can't toss a salad without hitting a vegetarian" - the majority was v*gan. (I was not until the last six months).
I didn't know a single person who had malnutrition, recurrant miscarriages, or any of those horrible health problems he suggests v*gans will get (however I do know a LOT of carnivores with those problems. ). I think a healthy, balanced, omnivorous diet can be good. Just as a health, balanced v*gan one can.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I tried beging veggie for about six months, but it was just too complicated. Few choices when eating out. Couldn't enjoy the same foods my family was eating on holidays. Couldn't try the local specialties when travelling. Couldn't eat much at catered events, that typically had little in the way of non-meat fare. I felt very limited, and at the same time as though I was obsessing over what I ate.

My reasons for being veggie had to do with not wanting to support inhumane breeding/slaughtering processes, not because I felt eating meat is wrong. Also I did not want to consume the toxins, hormons, and antibiotics in factory-raised meat. So my compromise is that we only eat organic meat, whether that's beef, poultry, or fish. Also only organic dairy, and we get our eggs from a local farm where the chickens are free-range.

I voted that I feel eating meat is the healthiest choice for me, but I didn't think that was the closest statement to explain why I'm not veggie.









I would probably say something more like, "After considering all the options, I don't feel that eating humanely-treated animals is wrong."


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

I agree the choices are biased. I voted "healthiest diet for me", although I wouldn't say I'm eating as healthy as I possibly could. My excuse for not being vegetarian used to be: I was "allergic" to soy, raw fruits and veggies, some cooked veggies, fish, and most nuts. However, those allergies turned out to be false. I could have voted for the atkins option, but the wording of it was insulting. I don't think low-carb is any more of a fad than vegan, it just happens to be gaining in popularity right now.
I agree with a lot that has been previously said: I feel just as bad killing plants as animals, and I feel I am biologically designed to eat meat. I think some diets are better for some than for others, thoguh. Take my dh. He went on a low-carb diet a year ago, lost 60 lbs, felt better, and had no problem with wanting to cheat (his diet invokves a heavy load of greens, and he cut out drinking milk recently when he realized it was making him sick). He also lost his chronic heartburn that was so bad it was untreatable with the strongest drugs. He realized for himself that bread, pasta and rice don't taste good, so now he just eats the sauce! However, I like bland foods, I will eat rice with just butter, so for me it is harder to give up carbs. Also when I got pg and had protein aversions, I had to bring back more (whole) grains just to feel like I was getting enough calories. I like the Paleo diet, but I'm a long way from being able to stick to it. My next goal is eating more organic free range foods.

I think that if you look at the compounds our bodies need for fuel and look at the sources, you will see a wide spectrum of combinations that fulfill pur needs.
When I eat meat or any other food, I try to give thanks to the Goddess and to that being for giving me its life energy and make a bit of a promise to myself to make sure that life energy is used in a positive way.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I understood you Misfit. I just took your explanation a step farther.

When doing a poll, the POV of the poll writer should be indicernable. I would be saying the same if an omnivore had written a similar poll biased in the other direction.
Surveys should be neutral. This one was not.

Why should anyone be expected to choose from among options that amount to her calling herself callous or foolish or selfish or lacking-in-knowledge?


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

There wasn't one to pick for me. I have bad food allergies and have a hard time finding non-animal foods to eat. An allergic reactions means my throat closes up, so I try to avoid those things







Been to the ER too many times for that, plus right now I don't have the free time to hit the ER









I'm allergic to soy, mushrooms, peas, peppers, cherries, peach, pineapple, apricot & really all fruits except bananas. I'm also intolerant to citrus, tomatos, dairy, & I get severe stomach pains from pastas, so just avoid that when I can. I also have to avoid any foods that use fruit juice to flavor them. And due to dental issues, nuts are out (both hard nuts and nut butters). I have braces, bad TMJ, & fibromyalgia. Oh and digestive problems with my small & lower intestines, so this makes veggies hard to digest, which is painful. LOL yes, I'm falling apart.

I can tolerate meats and fish with out a problem so that is the bulk of my diet. I end up eating a very meat and potatos diet. I do make healthy choices (organic meats, no frying, etc). Most nights I eat broiled flounder with brown rice or maybe broiled chicken breast. I was also allergic to beef as a child (my allergies were worse then) and still can't really tolerate that much now.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Thanks Meiri, glad you understood me. So you understand I am not saying anything insulting, either to the OP or to anyone.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

I've tried to be a vegitarian, can't do it. Last time I tried my kidneys shut down, before that I collapsed from lack of something.... my body doesn't like it no matter how balanaced a diet I am eating.


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## veggiemomma (Oct 21, 2004)

We are vegetarians in our house, mostly because we don't believe meat you buy in any store is very safe. It is hard, though...I do love shrimp primavera...

I also am habing some crazy preg cravings, but am trying to keep them under control!


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

In our area I have never met a healthy looking vegetarian.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

We eat animal products in our home, but are always in the look out for organic products.
I believe that a truly healthy diet includes animal products, grains, fruits and vegetables. I also find that my vegan and/or vegetarian friends don't seem as healthy, but maybe it is just coincidence.
Besides, I have tried eating vegan foods from the local co-op, and I just can't stand the taste or the smell of it







It is all a personal choice though

P.S. Despite of all this, my kids like their vegetables and grains better than meat (they eat the vegetables first and always leave half of the meat behind). They like chicken a little better and they







fish though. I would be willing to learn vegetarian cooking in case any of them chose to become vegetarian someday


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I agree that the poll responses are loaded.

Quote:

I would probably say something more like, "After considering all the options, I don't feel that eating humanely-treated animals is wrong."










I can understand how one could be vegetarian, but not how one could be vegan. I have a niece who is. I dearly love this girl and I dearly hate having her come stay in my house because of her diet. I would never want to be in that position myself.


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## rickyshot (Aug 24, 2002)

I am not a vegetarian but do eat many vegetarian meals per week. I like variety and like meat. I train and eat a lot of protein. Broiling a chicken breast is quick and easy for me with my fave veggies or salad. I make no apologies. I am NOT politically correct and do not care what others think. But as stated above I like variety and use many vegan recepies. Funny my BF is semi-vegetarian. The only meat he will eat is fish but not shellfish or any scavenger. He is Rastafarian and his religion dictates how he eats. He eats very healthy though. I think I do too. I cook from scratch all the time with fresh ingrediants.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

I was a vegetarian for 14 years. I stopped when I was pg with dd #1 because I craved meat, and the cravings continued after dd was born. I still buy tofu, soy milk, other meat substitutes because I like them, too. I also like the taste of meat. In our area it's not difficult to get locally humanely raised meat. We have several rod and gun clubs and it's not too hard to get game meat, either.

I voted that it's the healthiest way for my family to eat. We usually spend the extra money to get local farm raised meat, organic hot dogs, etc.

I've asked dd if she would like to be a vegetarian, after she met vegetarians in her preschool. She said, no way, she likes hamburgers! I think it is the healthiest way for her to eat as well. She's very active, very skinny, and has a fast metabolism. She's also a picky eater. I have to get a complete protein in her in one fell swoop, plus a little extra fat. DD does not like soy or rice milk, veggie burger, etc (SHe will eat tofu pups). She loves dairy.

That all said, we don't eat large portions of meat, although we do have a little every day. We eat huge portions of veggies, a little bit of carbs, and a small portion of meat (fish, eggs, red meat, poultry)

I also think the poll is a little loaded. I do not think that vegetarianism is for everyone. You have to be very conscious of what you're eating, make sure you've got not just a protein source, but a complete protein source with all your amino acids. Not that it can't be done! And eating meat doesn't mean you're automatically eating a healthy diet. For me and for my family I've found a happy medium with a diet includes a wide variety of foods, including meat and vegetable based proteins.

I'm going to risk villifying myself and say that I do not think eating meat is inhumane. What is inhumane is the way animals raised on megafarms for meat are treated in life and death. When we sit down to eat, we thank and honor the animals and plants for giving their lives so that we may have a life-sustaining (and delicious) meal. When we die, we will become food to sustain plants and animals, and so the circle goes.

It is possible to eat meat ethically.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
You have to be very conscious of what you're eating, make sure you've got not just a protein source, but a complete protein source with all your amino acids.

I get that from a lot of people. I was raised vegetarian by a mother who was raised with a very small amount of meat in the household because her mother was raised vegetarian and her grandfather was a vegetarian. Maybe balancing amino acids, etc. just comes naturally to me but I most definitely and not very conscious of what I'm eating. I guess this could be an issue to people who are switching their diet from a meat based on to a non-meat based one, but it's never been an issue for me. We had rice, dahl and chapatis last night. That was pretty much a staple for me when I was a kid. I think it's a balanced amino acid meal. I dunno. I never think about it.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

What did most of you think of the soy article in Mothering a few months ago?


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## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

I chose "I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat.", but it's more than that. I believe that humans are omnivores, and that we are meant and designed to eat some meat. I don't believe that it should consist of a huge part of my diet, and I always eat free-range, organic, grass-fed meat. I get beef from my dad, and his steers have never seen a slaughterhouse, recieved antibioitics, or been inside a feedlot.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
What did most of you think of the soy article in Mothering a few months ago?

Rhonwyn, no offense, but would you mind starting a new thread to talk about that? :sheepish: I only say this b/c I have seen big ol' intense raging debate threads on this already... No one has responded to your question yet so maybe that wouldn't happen here, but there are some folks around here who have A LOT to say


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I couldn't vote in the poll. None of the reasons applied to me.

I was a vegetarian for 5 years for animal rights reasons. I gave up vegetarianism for a number of reasons, including:

I lost the passion. I stopped believing that one person could make any difference.

I was kicked out of my house, and homeless or house-hopping for that last year that I was a vegetarian. I was looking at at least one more year of that before I turned 18 and graduated from high school (and might be able to find a job and an apartment). Being picky about my meals when I wasn't sure where they'd come from wasn't a good way to survive.

I hated what I had been surviving off of for so long. I had to buy my own food from the time I was about 11 years old. That meant that I was living off of Frosted Flakes cereal, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and salads. I hated rice and beans - I'm still not a fan of them. I had to steal money from my mom to feed myself. I never learned how to cook, and couldn't figure out how to make a healthy meal.

I was taunted by my classmates for years. There were a couple of times that classmates held me down and tried to force-feed me meat. I was the butt of jokes because of my vegetarian diet. That wasn't such a big issue in high school, but it was still a problem sometimes.

I already suffered from an eating disorder. Being a vegetarian made it too easy to starve myself.

I hated not having any options when I went out to eat. Let's see... I can have the salad... or a side dish of a potato...
I was in my twenties before I saw a Boca burger on a restaurant menu!

The last straw? Going to (yet another) BBQ at someone's house where all I could eat were a few grilled vegetables. This time, it was at my now-husband's house. He can make some mean ribs! I didn't have any. But, I was overwhelmed by the desire to. Shortly after that, I started (slowly, so I wouldn't get sick) eating meat again.

I am well aware of what animals go through because I (and many others) eat meat. I know about the torture, the pain, the cruelty. I know how bad it is for the environment. I know about all the people who could be fed if we used the land for growing food, rather than feeding cows and such. I get that. I really do. I wouldn't have stuck with a vegetarian diet for so long if I didn't understand all that.

Why am I not a vegetarian now? Well, I'm lazy. I'm just now learning how to cook (at 27 years of age). My husband and my son really like meat. I hate preparing meat. It makes me sick. But, I don't have nightmares about it anymore (at least not often). I have been trying to cut down on the amount of meat in our meals, but I have a hard time filling the space with other things that any of us would eat. I do like the taste of meat. So, I put it out of my head what the animals have gone through for me to have it on my plate. It's unethical, but that's the position I've taken for now. I may change my mind in the future, when more of my life is under control, and I've figured out the whole cooking and eating healthy thing.

I am hosting an organic vegan potluck halloween party this year! My closest mommy friend (and fellow MDC member) is vegan. I totally respect her lifestyle choice. I have made an effort to buy only organic vegan snacks for my son to share with her daughter. And she and her daughter are the reason that the potluck halloween party will be limited to organic vegan foods.
And I cook a vegetarian (no meat) meal at least once a week when my foster sister comes over to watch my son. She became a vegetarian around the time that I gave it up (and she inherited all of my animal rights paraphenelia).

I am not ignorant about what the animals go through. And it's not that I don't care. Vegetarianism just isn't something I can make a priority in my life right now.
I could never be vegan, though. I enjoy milk chocolate and Ben & Jerry's ice cream WAY TOO MUCH!
I have the utmost respect for the vegans and vegetarians I've known who have made it work. I'm glad they have the resources to do so.

I don't take a firm position on whether meat is necessary to one's diet or not. I think that's an individual thing, often dependent on what resources one has.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Just chiming in to say - what a freakin' good response, Lotusdebi! Left no stone unturned.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Rhonwyn, no offense, but would you mind starting a new thread to talk about that? :sheepish: I only say this b/c I have seen big ol' intense raging debate threads on this already... No one has responded to your question yet so maybe that wouldn't happen here, but there are some folks around here who have A LOT to say

No offense taken. I'll poke around and see if I can find those threads. I never saw them but they are probably on sections I don't frequent. Thanks.


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## brookerenee (Jul 27, 2004)

I would be a lacto-ovo vegetarian if it weren't for my meat-loving DH. However, I could never go vegan... I love dairy products too much. However, we do buy organic as much as possible.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I get that from a lot of people. We had rice, dahl and chapatis last night. That was pretty much a staple for me when I was a kid. I think it's a balanced amino acid meal. I dunno. I never think about it.

Not sure what chapatis are, but if you make your dahl with lentils you still need a source of protein. Milk or corn would do it.

I used to get the balancing of proteins suggestions from people when I was vegetarian, too. For a while I was not very good at it, and I was very underweight. I was more or less a potato chip vegetarian. Not a healthy way to eat.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I hate to sound rude, but all of those questions were worded in a semi-biased fashion. Kind of like asking Bush supporters to name why he should be president again and listing things like: "Because Iraquians are evil." "I think killing people is a good thing, just leave the poor innocent unborns alone!"
KWIM?
I'll respond though.
I believe a healthy diet consists mostly of vegetables, fruits and meats. Grains too, but not the crap you buy in the store, & unfortunetly mostly what I eat.
I went vegetarian for 9 months and I didn't really like it. I was eating way more cheese, and grains to feel 'full'. Tofu was okay, I developed a liking for it, but...umm. I like variety, and to feel full. So bring on the fish, chicken and occasionally Bessie....


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
Not sure what chapatis are, but if you make your dahl with lentils you still need a source of protein. Milk or corn would do it.

I used to get the balancing of proteins suggestions from people when I was vegetarian, too. For a while I was not very good at it, and I was very underweight. I was more or less a potato chip vegetarian. Not a healthy way to eat.

I believe that beans and rice make a whole protein. Chapatis are like whole wheat tortillas - the package said that 1 chapati has 4 grams of protein. I also garnish my meal with plain yogurt but didn't mention it since it's really just a garnish. I do use about 1/2 cup throughout the meal though. I had no idea that corn was a protein source. My brown rice says it has 8 grams of protein per serving.


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## Primrose Burrows (Jan 8, 2004)

There's no "I don't eat meat but I do eat fish" choice.

The idea of meat bothers me. I continue to eat fish because a. I'm not disciplined enough to get my protein elsewhere and b. I really like fish.

Kelly


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

I believe it's what animals are here for, but that we should treat them better than we currently do.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

BUT... everyone is keeping their calm rather well!!

I vote choice number one. It's not worded to sugar coat reality but no other option fit me. I do believe that God gave us animals for companionship and food. Yes, we eat WAY too much meat. Yes animals are treated badly. I am aware of that. It's very sad but I cannot protest one bad thing by subjecting my family to another. I don't believe it's in my best health interest to stop eating meat. We crave for good reason. That's why pregnant women crave weird things like dirt. There is some reason and some nutrition that draws them to it. I feel the same way about meat. I've really honestly never put alot of thought into eating meat until recently. I have alot of respect for people who choose veg/ or veganism. Its got to be hard and very limiting. But it's a conviction that I don't have.

I have recently started following some of the biblical instruction for eating meat. I know very little about this as a whole and am looking for a good book on it. We only eat beef, chicken, turkey and deer right now. No pork at all.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Primrose Burrows*
There's no "I don't eat meat but I do eat fish" choice.

The idea of meat bothers me. I continue to eat fish because a. I'm not disciplined enough to get my protein elsewhere and b. I really like fish.

Kelly

I never had any meat, fish, poultry or any dead animals in my entire life (knowingly) but I suddenly started craving fish this pregnancy. I had some fish and chips and it really hit the spot. It was so weird. But I'm still pregnant and not craving it and am a bit revolted by the thought of eating it. Weird pregnancy. heh


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## Primrose Burrows (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I never had any meat, fish, poultry or any dead animals in my entire life (knowingly) but I suddenly started craving fish this pregnancy. I had some fish and chips and it really hit the spot. It was so weird. But I'm still pregnant and not craving it and am a bit revolted by the thought of eating it. Weird pregnancy. heh

I took a midwifery intensive course a while ago with a wonderul teacher, who told us "If a pregnant vegetarian craves meat, she should eat it". Apparently it's the body's way of telling her she needs a certain compound available in meat.

Kelly


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Funny, I have hated fish (except salmon) my whole life, and when I was pregnant I craved it all the time. Especially salmon, but all other fish too. I kept going out for fish & chips and thinking "this is disgusting" but I kept doing it. :LOL I did believe my body was trying to tell me something. Granted, I could've found it in a healthier form than greasy fried fish & chips... but it was just so goooood... in such a icky way... :LOL


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

A friend of mine told me that it was probably an iodine deficiency since I'm a recent transplant to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe that one week or so of fish solved the problem. I did start eating more seaweed for a while and that helped too.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I even went to Whole Foods and bought some grilled salmon. It had a nice flavor but I didn't really like the texture. The fish and chips did'nt have that chewiness. I think it was just fried to hell and back. LOL. I really enjoyed my big basket of greasiness smothered in malt vinegar but I really don't have a craving to do it again.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I believe that beans and rice make a whole protein. Chapatis are like whole wheat tortillas - the package said that 1 chapati has 4 grams of protein. I also garnish my meal with plain yogurt but didn't mention it since it's really just a garnish. I do use about 1/2 cup throughout the meal though. I had no idea that corn was a protein source. My brown rice says it has 8 grams of protein per serving.

Actually, dieticians have now discounted the idea that you have to combine foods to get a "whole protein" in a single sitting. Tha's outdated advice.

So long as you are eating in a generally healthy way, you will get your complete proteins/amino acids over the course of several meals/days.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt*
Besides, I have tried eating vegan foods from the local co-op, and I just can't stand the taste or the smell of it

Which vegan foods were those? Fruits or vegetables or grains or beans or legumes or....?


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

I should not be here, but I just have to say, I LOVE that someone brought up what I like to call "The screaming asparagus" argument...that plants and animals are the same somehow & it is OK to eat both. Total nonsense when you consider anything from pain response to the presence of the CNS.

Basically, you can justify that it's OK to eat anything, if you want. However, we have developed opposable thumbs over our years as humans, and I like to think of more creative things to do with them than cause pain so that I can have a hamburger. My goal is to walk gently through this beautiful life and take only what's necessary, create beauty, and avoid causing unecessary pain. I feel so much better than I ever did when I ate the flesh of dead animals.







in you mamas


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

If pain is the issue, does that mean that it would be ok with you for an animal to be killed if it could be done painlessly?


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

There's no choice for me. Myself and my family, except for my husband, were vegetarians for about 7 years. My kids are old enough now that I let them choose what they wanted to eat, and I started to lose weight because I was eating way too many carbs and plain old junk because I don't like veggies, or tofu, or most of the veggie meat replacers. I also thought that being a vegetarian might have been what was making me sick.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
If pain is the issue, does that mean that it would be ok with you for an animal to be killed if it could be done painlessly?

Can you really imagine a way of farming, hunting, or killing animals so that they experience no stress, suffering, or pain, and are not denied the ability to express their inherent behaviors, or satisfy their innate psychological, social, or physical needs?







If so, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

To me, this sort of question ranks up there with ones like, "What if plants feel pain?" and "If everyone stopped eating animals, wouldn't those poor cows go extinct?" They seem more like diversions than serious questions. (Not saying, sustainer, that you weren't asking in seriousness--but to me, I don't really see a point in spending a lot of time musing on such matters, since they address such unlikely scenarios)

I did read an article on how, in the future, scientists believe they might be able to create cloned meats (not cloned animals). beats me how'd they'd actually do this. Doesn't sound appetizing. I'll stick with my beans and nuts


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

It is a purely theoretical question, asked in an attempt to get to the bottom of a way of thinking.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

I took a midwifery intensive course a while ago with a wonderul teacher, who told us "If a pregnant vegetarian craves meat, she should eat it". Apparently it's the body's way of telling her she needs a certain compound available in meat.
Just a funny thing this brought to mind. I had "pica" during my pregnancy - the desire to eat inedible things such as chalk, dirt, etc. Apparently that is also because my body was craving something. I had the urge to eat dirt the whole pregnancy, and the smell of a dirty raw potato was heaven to me. However, I didn't eat dirt (I could often be seen gazing lovingly over potatoes though LOL!) But, it does make me wonder if we should really go with our cravings or perhaps just analyze our diets more?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

And Mountain, I just love "the screaming asparagus" - that is one I haven't heard and I think I just peed myself.

Laughing, that is.

Not just some kinda freak accident due to the need for Kegels. Although, that has happened.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Animals die during farming. There are thousands of rodents, birds, insects, etc. that die during the tilling of the earth. Blood is spilled and pain is suffered whether you eat plants or animals. We as human beings developed as omnivores. Undoubtedly, modern humans eat more meat and less vegetables than we should but that does not negate the fact that we are biologically set up to eat both plants and animals. I believe in eating as healthy as possible in the most humane manner - organic and free range. There are certain meats I avoid such as veal because of the inherent cruelty in their production. I believe that you can tread lightly on this earth and eat meat.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I voted "I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat" because my family (DH, DD and I) all ran into some major health problems on an extremely strict (no packaged or junk foods, no caffeine, chocolate, or alcohol/drugs, everything made from scratch including tempeh and tofu) whole foods vegan diet. Now we are conscious omnivores who raise our own poultry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I have recently started following some of the biblical instruction for eating meat. I know very little about this as a whole and am looking for a good book on it. We only eat beef, chicken, turkey and deer right now. No pork at all.

Have you tried reading "The Maker's Diet" by Jordan Rubin? I've heard that one is good and biblically based.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
I can understand how one could be vegetarian, but not how one could be vegan. I have a niece who is. I dearly love this girl and I dearly hate having her come stay in my house because of her diet. I would never want to be in that position myself.

For people who are extremely ethically motivated, any animal enslavement is akin to murder. That is why we were vegan, because you cannot have milk or eggs without being dependent on killing a bull calf for meat or culling the unwanted chickens, either the males at birth or the old tired layers. Also, some people can argue that it is more humane to kill a wild animal for meat instead of forcing an animal to live in crowded and unhappy environment, milking or taking eggs away from that animal, and then after it is done finally killing it.

Another reason for being vegan is for people allergic to both milk and eggs, who don't want to eat meat.

I did not find it very hard to cook vegan (however going out to eat was a completely different story), but unfortunately it did not work for my family.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.
This is the deal with animals and pain and such. Oh, but first, the answer is no. But if I was living in the wild and could find no berries etc, I would kill an animal to survive regardless of what tools I had therefore how painful it may be. It is the nature of beasts - the greatest beast of all being man.

However, I have been attached to a cow, they are beautiful creatures with a loving heart and deep, soulful eyes. I have been friends with a lamb, until it reached adulthood, and they are funny people, and like to snuggle your neck. Just like our pets, the dog and the cat, we learn they are amazing creatures, with their own spirit and personality, and killing a cat or a dog after knowing this becomes an inner struggle. I love all creatures, and knowing there is such wastage of their bodies burns at my chest. We throw away so much, and the markets just keep churning them out - we have no respect for the lives we have taken. We don't see the flesh on our plate as something's mother or a thinking being.

When we eat meat in our home, we don't give thanks to God, we give thanks to the animal that was sacrificed so that we may eat in luxury. I didn't have to battle for hours to catch, kill and skin the animal - it just magically appears at the store. So this is how I am teaching my child thankfulness, and one day we will witness a real kill, so she knows the fullness of reality and appreciates what flesh is.

So, no, if it were painless (there are ways to kill painlessly), it wouldn't change anything for me as I appreciate all souls and all personalities of these amazing creatures. We are almost vegetarian and once my bone marrow problems are sorted, I will ditch meat completely. In fact, this thread has inspired me to just deal with the problems I face with iron supplements and ditch meat now.

Eat meat if you like, just be grateful - for all the things you don't have to do to have it, and all the things you prevented that animal from experiencing in life so you could have it.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Primrose Burrows*
There's no "I don't eat meat but I do eat fish" choice.

Kelly

That's because the poll is about why you aren't a vegetarian. You answered the question in your reply but us veg*ns define it as not eating animals and fish are animals, too. We make no ethical distinction between the two. Hence no separation in the poll.

-PM


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## DeadheadGranny (May 26, 2004)

When animals die and rot, roots of plants suck up the nutrients.
Veggies don't care where they get their sustenance from.
Veggies 'eat' dead animals.

So veggies are not vegetarian.

They are eaters of everything.
Omnivores, even.

If you eat a vegetable which grew by feeding off the nutrients of dead animals, (insects, birds, mice, etc., etc.), aren't you practicing indirect meat-eating?

(found on Usenet)


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh Deadheadgranny, that is enlightening, a la Buddha! Love it!

We Are One, We Are A Part Of Everything, And Everything Is Us.

Nice work.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
Animals die during farming. There are thousands of rodents, birds, insects, etc. that die during the tilling of the earth. Blood is spilled and pain is suffered whether you eat plants or animals. We as human beings developed as omnivores. Undoubtedly, modern humans eat more meat and less vegetables than we should but that does not negate the fact that we are biologically set up to eat both plants and animals. I believe in eating as healthy as possible in the most humane manner - organic and free range. There are certain meats I avoid such as veal because of the inherent cruelty in their production. I believe that you can tread lightly on this earth and eat meat.

There's an enormous difference between a wild animal who is accidentally killed and a farmed animal who, from birth to death, is kept in conditions that range from merely unpleasant to horrendous.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.

Not suffering would certainly be better for the animals.

I probably would still choose not to eat them. It just feels better to my spirit not to (and it would be far better for the environment if we weren't engaging in animal agriculture, and if we weren't depleting the seas with overfishing, but that's another discussion). I don't need to eat animals to be healthy, so I can't see any reason I'd change that.

Would it be "okay"? For me, not really. For others? Only they can say. Would less pain and misery in the world be a good thing? Certainly. Will this ever come to pass? Not bloody likely.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Theoretically, how do you know if the animal even feels any pain if the death is so fast?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

So it sounds like there are people who think that even painless killing of animals would be wrong, so what I want to know now is, what is it that makes painless killing of animals (for food) wrong, and why dosn't it apply to plants? Let's assume we're talking about hunting wild animals, so we're not talking about the whole captivity/treatment/factory farming issue.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Even though Im the OP Ive been quiet till now (not wanting to get into any debates) but I wanted to answer Sustainer's question. I would not eat an animal no matter how painlessly it is killed. Animals exist for their own purposes, not for ours. It has been proven that many form attachments, relationships, value their lives. It would be wrong for me to end their lives simply to I can dine on their flesh when there are SO many alternatives. We live in an age where veganism comes easy if you're willing. Plants dont have a brain stem or a central nervous system. They are not alive in the same sense that an animal is.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DeadheadGranny*
When animals die and rot, roots of plants suck up the nutrients.
Veggies don't care where they get their sustenance from.
Veggies 'eat' dead animals.

So veggies are not vegetarian.

They are eaters of everything.
Omnivores, even.

If you eat a vegetable which grew by feeding off the nutrients of dead animals, (insects, birds, mice, etc., etc.), aren't you practicing indirect meat-eating?

(found on Usenet)

Beings eat what they are DESIGNED to eat. Roots are made to absorb nutrients available. They do not have free will or opposable thumbs, or appendages for that matter...there is a difference.

Humans are not designed to eat meat, despite the "oh we have canine teeth" argument. Actually, we have teeth suited for ripping tougher vegetables, not meat.

Of course everything is in a life/death cycle...However, I don't think that really pertains to the actual ethical issue of meat eating.

We are all part of a life/death cycle, but the question that some thinkers ask themselves is "How can I cause the least amount of suffering?"

As with everything in life, it is a matter of degree.

Compare: field mice being accidentally tilled (somehow I'm surmising that they would AVOID large machinery & there are a limited number of mice vs. animals bred for killing that live their entire lives enduring no sun, dry grass, living in their own shit, dosed with antibiotics, their young taken from them.

If you hunt your own deer, I can see ethically your murder is a matter of degrees better than if purchased from the murder industry.

I compare: a healthy, LOW CHOLESTEROL, diet vs. a diet with animals that are raised to die, KNOWING they are going to die, SCREAMING when they are about to die, living in nasty conditions. For instance, chickens are allowed to have a certain amount of breast infection (measured by the PUS they excrete) and are still SELLABLE. I do understand the organic free range is "better" in degree, however I would still not support the industry of pain.

There's no way to painlessly kill an animal anyway. What would you do, pump em up on morphine? That in itself would be a painfully cruel way for an animal to be treated.

I want to treat everyone as what they are, babies of the earth...I do have to make a distinction between animals and vegetables simply because there IS one.

For humans (i've had this discussion so many times w/ doctors, nurses, everyone! that concur, if not follow their thinking!), a vegetarian diet is copacetic. We have teeth that enable us to eat different sources of plants (inscisors for harder fruits, to acquire corn). We have witnessed the plagues of death by too much cholesterol (found in animals, not in plants), gout, cancer (especially of the colon).
We do NOT have the type of small intestine that carnivores have. Humans ingest most of the toxins in meat, where wolves, dogs have a SHORT small intestine that does not absorb these toxins, they excrete them before they can be absorbed...vegetarians live longer, healthier lives, it is in the research unavoidably.

You choose your life, and what lives you take.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
We live in an age where veganism comes easy if you're willing.

Perhaps vegetarianism comes easy, but I don't think veganism is as easy. Veganism is more than just a diet, it is about how you live your life. I have tried both veganism and vegetarianism, but sometimes it seems arbitrary to me. This is more true of vegetarianism, I find. I have a friend who is a vegetarian and he will carefully read labels to avoid gelatin or stearate, but if it has partially hydrogenated oils, he eats it (which I feel is unhealthy). His car has leather, but he would have had to pay for the leather seats to be removed and cloth ones installed, so he kept the leather seats. I end up doing the same with meat. When I was trying to be a total vegetarian, I ended up eating meat because it would have all been discarded and I felt it was worse at that point than if I at least got sustenance from it. I am really drawn to the idea of veganism, but I've been unable to fully embrace and I'm not sure why. Part of it is probably just that I don't agree with all the tenets of veganism.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
Animals exist for their own purposes, not for ours.

The same is true of plants.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
They are not alive in the same sense that an animal is.

I think plants are just as alive as animals are.


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

We usually only eat meat when we eat out at a restaurant. Even then we try to avoid it. I like the way it tastes but I also understand it contributes to chronic diseases and harms our environment. Avoiding meat actually helps trim down our grocery bill. We also do not drink milk. But I do admit we eat cheese. Aren't we confusing?

It does make me feel bad that an animal had to die to provide us with their meat.


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## littlehiphuggers (Jan 7, 2004)

I agree with the pps about living with a carnivore. Dh eats nothing but animal products, ds is vegan' cept for fish (he is allergic to dairy and eggs, I am vegetarian 'cept for fish, and of course dd only eats breastmilk. I do alot of cooking







) I was vegan till the smell of dhs pizza got to me. I'll have to pitch in about the craving for meat while preg, but I never gave in. We believe its healthier to not eat meat, and bad karma. Dh has tried to go veg but the poor guy loses too much weight, as he detests almost all vegetables. I only feel slight guilt about eating fish, as they are not mammals, like us. I believe a vegan diet is the healthiest, as long as it is based on whole grains and various beans, and not soy.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I'm glad this hasn't turned into a debate, per se, although I can see it doing so easily. Therefore, I am not (as a vegan) going to respond to several posts which I feel I need to because it would not be responding to the OP's question. But thank you to everyone to very clearly explained why they choose a different diet/lifestyle than I do. It is nice to read about it in a different context than a debate.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I can't find the post that said it, but I love the term "the screaming asparagus argument" - where non-vegetarians offer that plants compare to animals. Mountain has great points for this.

It is a fact that we do not have the digestive design for meat. All carnivores eat mostly if not all meat, and their colons are short for this purpose. Herbivores have long colons, designed to get the most out of plants and almost all their diet is plants. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean that is what we should do. Our colon is the colon of a herbivore.

In India, the cow is sacred and not eaten; in other countries, dog is eaten; in Papua New Ginea, human is eaten. We have chosen what flesh we eat - cow, bird, sheep, pig, certain sea creatures and certain others but not venturing far from that. As always, we think we have it right just because its "all we've ever done". The telling argument will always be "what does research/science say?" - and it says we are not designed to eat much meat, it is too rough on our colon. Also, just as with child raising (Continuum Concept) look to the tribe, to the earth - what are they doing? They eat mostly plants, and do a big song and dance when they bring home flesh - that is a better balance for our design.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
Humans are not designed to eat meat, despite the "oh we have canine teeth" argument. Actually, we have teeth suited for ripping tougher vegetables, not meat...<snip>
We do NOT have the type of small intestine that carnivores have. Humans ingest most of the toxins in meat, where wolves, dogs have a SHORT small intestine that does not absorb these toxins, they excrete them before they can be absorbed...vegetarians live longer, healthier lives, it is in the research unavoidably.

Whoah! Back the truck up!

Even when I was a vegan, I understood that humans are evolutionarily omnivorous, not strict herbivores. Yes, we are not carnivores. But we lack the digestive system necessary for optimal extraction of nutrients from cellulose (most plant matter fiber) that strict herbivores have. Herbivores usually have enlarged or multi-chambered stomachs, or voluminous colons or cecums, and special fermentation vats heavily colonized by symbiotic, fiber-fermenting bacteria and protozoa (like a rumen). Humans also have a well-developed gall bladder, as compared to herbivores which have little or no gall bladder (which helps digest fats, found more abundantly in animal foods). And what about our special heme iron receptors? And our need for B12, not found in plant foods? Even our closest relatives, chimpanzees and gorillas, are not strict vegetarians. In the wild, they consume insects which would provide protein as well as EFAs and B12. And what about people who have limited ability to convert ALA into DHA, or beta-carotene into vitamin A? We have too many differences from strict herbivores to consider ourselves the same.

Yes, humans are not designed to strictly eat meat. But we are also not designed to strictly eat plants. We are omnivores. We are designed to eat lots of plant food, and some animal foods as well.

And as for vegetarians living longer than omnivores, that is a myth. Yes, vegetarians live longer than the average SAD dieter. But so do healthy meat-eaters. Vegans did even worse than healthy meat eaters. See http://www.veganoutreach.org/healthargument.html or http://www.veganmd.org/october2003.html for more info.

I think that the standard American/Western dieter eats way too much meat, and of poor and inhumane (factory farmed) quality. You won't get any arguments from me on that issue. But not everyone can thrive on a veg*n diet, and I wish that more people would be accepting of this. We are all different.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

True, that is why the tribal life provides the best balance for our design.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Thank-you Toraji.

Diet is not a black & white, carnivore or herbivore, issue. There is an inbetween status which we occupy along with several other families of mammals. We don't have the short gut of the strict carnivores, but neither do we have the extremely long gut of the strictly herbivores. Our teeth have gotten less sharp, but we can and do make tools to make up for that.

I agree with whomever said that beings eat as they are designed to eat, and the fossil and archeological evidence show that our earliest ancestors sought out meat.

It's our species' ability to adapt to a wide variety of diet that has enabled us to live in so many, and so different, environments on this planet. Where plant foods are readily available peoples will eat those and supplement with meat if they choose (I've yet to read a ethnography of a hunter-gatherer people who don't btw). Where plants foods aren't a option, people eat meats--how many salads are grown in the Arctic?







There was a really good article about the traditional diet of the Inuit peoples in Discover Magazine a few months back. It is possible to starve to death on a diet of lean meat alone. That surprised me. The human body can only handle a max of 30% protein. It needs fats, carbs, etc to function properly. What keeps the Inuit high meat diet from killing them is the fat content. It was fascinating read, but not a diet I plan to try.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

A few random thoughts about plants.......

They do not have a CNS, nor a brain, but they are capable of extraordinary things, given enough time. Part of the problem with animals understanding plants is that the plants work on entirely different time scale. Plants move in a number of ways, if you set up a time-lapse camera on a plant you will see it's leaves move throughout the day to catch sunlight. You can also see the plant move away from a negative stimulus (such as heat). There are a number of species of orchids that have developed flowers to resemble the female of a particular type of wasp. THe male wasp tries to copulate with the flower, gets nowhere obviously, but does transfer pollen to the next flower he tries to copulate with... Who's the clever species now, kwim? How did that plant work out how to get that pollen transferred effectively?









Most adult plants don't move after germination, but their 'offspring' do, sometimes over great distances. In some species the parent plant is able to reproduce for a thousand years. How can animals even begin to understand the time scale required? It's kind of like in betweeen geologic time & 'real' time......

Plants have developed mechanisms to make seed transport easier (think burrs that stick in your dog's fur)- I personally don't think all that development is purely evolutionary chance, but







Maybe it just requires thinking about things in a different time frame...... THink about the symbiotic relationship between corals (animal) & zooxanthellae (plant- Protista, actually, but there's a relationship with plants- too complex for one post!). The algae can live without the coral, but the coral really needs the algae to achieve optimal nutrition. So, why does the algae stay with the coral?







The algae will pack up & move if conditions are not right (coral bleaching, essentially), but that's an external environmental factor, not one endemic to the coral. SHould also say that a lot of folks are still working on the coral bleaching issue.... jury's still out, as they say......

Oh yes, one more thing, herbivory..... Plants are capable of mobilising their defenses if they sense they are being eaten. A plant will move higher concentrations of nutrients out of the area that is under insect attack, & will move in higher concentrations of nasty things like tannins & other chemicals.







How do they 'know' they're being eaten?

Fascinating stuff..... to a botanist, anyway.









ANd a final disclaimer...... I really, really like plants







, but I kill them, all the time. I have some grasses over in the shadehouse now who are weeping over yesterday's 'haircut', literally weeping out of the cut stems. In a day's time, they will put out new shoots & begin again, but they will all ultimately end up at 70degC in a dryer for 5 days........







Is life...........

Oh yeah, one final thing (I promise). I'm totally with the vegans/veggies/whomever on the sickness of factory farming. Totally with ya. But I think my chookies in the back yard are pretty happy, even though they're in captivity in a fenced off area under the mango tree. Im not planning on eating them, tho, just their eggs!


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Yes, and then there are the plants that can trap and eat bugs, but the plants that really fascinate me are the ones that actually have a form of communication with each other through the ground using a technology that almost resembles radio waves or sonar. There are some smart plants out there. The difference between plants and animals isn't black and white. It is a sliding scale, with the smartest plants only slightly dumber than the dumbest animals. There is no justification for claiming that the only "right" place to draw the line is between plants and animals. We each draw our own ethical line somewhere on the scale, based on our own comfort level. Most people draw it between humans and other animals. I draw my line between primates and non-primates (I could never eat a monkey). I am leaning toward drawing my line between mammals and non-mammals: I eat hardly any cow or pig. Almost all of my meat is poultry or tuna. I don't eat much meat overall. My diet is mostly fruits and veggies.

I love trees. I have always named them and talked to them, and I have hugged them and cried on them. I feel friendship for trees. It deeply hurts me inside when a tree is cut down. I don't think a tree's life is of any less value than an animal's life.

Another question for the "killing plants is fine/killing animals is evil" people: Do you step on ants and/or swat mosquitoes?


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Oh yes! I had forgotten about the insectivorous plants! Very, very cool stuff.

And I talk to plants, too. Sometimes on a daily basis.







:

:LOL

And I'm grateful for every one that I kill, because each is telling me part of a story......

And can we talk about the size of a croc's brain, or is that just going waaaay too OT? Small brain, but they are higher on the food chain than we are...... Don't know of _anything_ that will mess with those guys.......


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

About the bugs, my religion believes all sentient beings deserve equal treatment, so we have ghekos in the house which catch most of the bugs in a more "natural" fashion than bug spray (bug spray is ick!). Since I was a child I have respected even ants, and avoid treadding on them where possible. Eucalyptus oil keeps them out of the house. I don't mind sharing my life with moths and other insects, but we use citronella bush branches and burners to keep bities away. Another reason I will never swat a mosquito on my flesh as it may contain traces of another person's blood which would travel down the proboscis into the puncture hole and I would expose myself to risky things.

Aussiemum, I saw the documentary about the "life of plants" also, fascinating stuff. Did you see it? And plants do actually move, very slowly, but they travel - certain plants anyway. I have also seen them respond to music in a science experiment. And spot on about the time scale, that seems to be the only difference.

I think if we ate meat the way it was intended, we would not only be healthier, we would shut down most of the big horrible farming issues - there simply wouldn't be enough demand anymore. Hunter/gatherer type lifestyle, without the hunting or gathering. And we should use more of the animals than we do. Even though they try to use the parts for other things, there is just so much wastage still, and that upsets me.

The amount of nutrients we need from meat is very small, especially when we learn how to protein combine with plant life. Too much protein is a death warrant for the kidneys anyway.


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## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

I can't really vote either. I went veggie badly in highschool, wasn't waiting a balanced diet. I am slowly now learning about nutritious food - past the message of low fat low sugar and more into feeding your body what it really needs. I have a ton of emotional stuff to do with food. I think abstaining from animal products is the most ethical and environmentally best way to eat. I just can't do it - yet! I hope to get there. In the meantime I distance myself from the ramifications of eating animal products but I cannot defend what I do.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
It is a fact that we do not have the digestive design for meat. All carnivores eat mostly if not all meat, and their colons are short for this purpose. Herbivores have long colons, designed to get the most out of plants and almost all their diet is plants. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean that is what we should do. Our colon is the colon of a herbivore.

I have a friend who eats a lot of meat and enjoys it but doesn't really think it's healthy. I love his analogy. He says he can eat his shirt too. He says he can shred it into bits and chew it and chew it and then it will probably come out the other end. And, hey, it's got fiber too. But just because he CAN eat it, doesn't mean he NEEDS to eat it or that it's even good for him or that he wouldn't be healthy if he didn't eat it. And so on.


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## Cuppa-Love (Oct 1, 2004)

My reasons:

1.) I tried to change but I get too sick without meat

2.) I am lazy and hate having to buy fresh food when I need it (instead of it being in the pantry already) and it's a pain cutting things up all the time! Yes I am very lazy eh?

I would like to change because of animal abuses but that's not really the answer IMO.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meiri*
Thank-you Toraji.<snip>There was a really good article about the traditional diet of the Inuit peoples in Discover Magazine a few months back. It is possible to starve to death on a diet of lean meat alone. That surprised me. The human body can only handle a max of 30% protein. It needs fats, carbs, etc to function properly. What keeps the Inuit high meat diet from killing them is the fat content. It was fascinating read, but not a diet I plan to try.

You're welcome.








There was something called "rabbit starvation" when the early pioneers came to America. Rabbits were plentiful but since they are so low in fat, the people would essentially "starve" to death from lack of fat. There are many reports of native tribes who would take just the fat and organ meats from an animal and either leave the rest or give it to their dogs.

ITA with the poster who says that we generally don't respect our meat animals by not eating it the way it was intended. Every time we butcher one of our chickens for meat, we feel humbled, and make damn sure that we use every bit of it we can, eating the nutritious organ meats and boiling the carcass down multiple times for stock.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I tried vegitarianism for a while in college but it was too hard to keep up, especially because I'm married to a die hard meat eater.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
There's an enormous difference between a wild animal who is accidentally killed and a farmed animal who, from birth to death, is kept in conditions that range from merely unpleasant to horrendous.

Yes that is true but to say that no animals die during farming is a falsehood.

How do you feel about free range, cage free, organic animal husbandry? We do our best to only eat animals that have been treated humanely hence we do not eat veal.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Whoah! Back the truck up!

Even when I was a vegan, I understood that humans are evolutionarily omnivorous, not strict herbivores. Yes, we are not carnivores. But we lack the digestive system necessary for optimal extraction of nutrients from cellulose (most plant matter fiber) that strict herbivores have. Herbivores usually have enlarged or multi-chambered stomachs, or voluminous colons or cecums, and special fermentation vats heavily colonized by symbiotic, fiber-fermenting bacteria and protozoa (like a rumen). Humans also have a well-developed gall bladder, as compared to herbivores which have little or no gall bladder (which helps digest fats, found more abundantly in animal foods). And what about our special heme iron receptors? And our need for B12, not found in plant foods? Even our closest relatives, chimpanzees and gorillas, are not strict vegetarians. In the wild, they consume insects which would provide protein as well as EFAs and B12. And what about people who have limited ability to convert ALA into DHA, or beta-carotene into vitamin A? We have too many differences from strict herbivores to consider ourselves the same.

We are omnivores. We are designed to eat lots of plant food, and some animal foods as well.

Some research would show you this is behavioral. This is an opinion, not fact.

Please read about B12 here.
http://www.ecologos.org/omni.htm

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-1a.shtml

http://www.killian.com/earl/rfv/Life...yOfVegetarians

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
That vegetarians live longer than meat eaters is a myth

Well, here's some 'mythological' studies

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~s9wolter/reasons.html

http://www.nutrio.com/servlet/nutrio...cat=4&rec=1259

http://www.netrition.com/cgi/healthn...tentID=1301007

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
I think plants are just as alive as animals are.

*sigh*


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
Some research would show you this is behavioral. This is an opinion, not fact.

Please read about B12 here.

Oh yes, I am quite familiar with Laurie Forti's defensive rantings on vegetarianism. And if you want to eat your own feces to get your b12 requirements, go right ahead. Her writings are generally ill-researched and quick to jump to conclusions. BeyondVeg, on the other hand, is very well researched and all the articles I've seen on their site point to man being omnivorous, and that some humans are better adapted to conserving/recycling b12 than others, but not all. And about using only human feces for b12, Toby Hemenway, who wrote the permaculture book "Gaia's Garden" states:

Quote:

Humanure can't be the only source of fertilizer, the Second Law of Thermodynamics dictates that you'll run out of of nutrients. Plus having humans as the only animal designed into the system is its own form of monocrop, and overlooks many other ways to process nutrients. Stripping animals out of our designed ecosystems seems unwise and certainly unnatural.
from http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/p.../msg01849.html

The life expectancy link just repeats the Seventh Day Adventist study that was done on only one population, and made assumptions that vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. The number that they quoted (7 years) is in conflict with the most recent studies that showed lacto-ovo vegetarians do not have any survival advantages over people who consumed meat occasionally, and only 2 years longer than people who consumed meat regularly. Conclusion made from the researchers: No survival advantage.
Quote from Vegan MD site:

Quote:

Yes, the vegetarians in the study lived six years longer than the general population, but so did the meat-eaters! Other than their healthy lifestyles, this group of meat-eaters studied ate more fruits and veggies than your typical meat-eater and less meat. Wondering if that's why they weren't seeing a greater vegetarian advantage, the researchers compared the vegetarians to just those that ate meat regularly. And although there was no survival advantage over those that just ate meat a few times a month, vegetarians did seem to live about two years longer than those who ate meat every week. But just two years longer? We deserve better than that! And the vegans in the study did even worse









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
Well, here's some 'mythological' studies

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~s9wolter/reasons.html

http://www.nutrio.com/servlet/nutrio...cat=4&rec=1259

http://www.netrition.com/cgi/healthn...tentID=1301007

These links just repeat the old vegetarian "proof" that vegetarians live longer, based on outdated studies. Did you even look at the links I posted to Vegan Outreach and Vegan MD? The latest studies show no survival advantage. Of course, the vegetarian scientists *think* they know why, and their reasoning is lack of b12 and EFA supplementation (since the veg*ns showed a 50% greater risk of dying from degenerative brain diseases). For me though, I gave up on science taking care of all my veg*n nutritional needs. If they were wrong about veg*n health benefits before, what else could they be wrong about? What other essential nutrient will show up lacking?

Bottom line: if veg*nism is so natural, why aren't any native cultures veg*n? Why take all the time and effort to seek out meat? Why put your life at risk hunting animals when it is much easier to pick leaves and berries? You can't convince me to run after a wild animal and kill it unless it benefits me in some way, not because it just "tastes good". Humans are not that stupid.

Some researchers even believe that meat was essential to the evolution of our species and contributed to our large brain size and highly sophisticated social structure: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...92650?v=glance
And people can also argue that our modern problems with degenerative diseases are not because we are eating meat, but because of the poor quality of our general Western diet. Dr. Loren Cordain, professor at Colorado State University, has been doing extensive, peer-reviewed research on the diet of early hunter/gatherers and shows that meat intake does not contribute to these diseases. You can download his studies here: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles.htm

So please don't take that snarky tone with me. I believed all that bull pucky about vegetarianism being healthier and more evolutionarily correct for ALL people and my family's health suffered because of it. I repeat again, we are all different, and have different needs. Some people thrive on veg*n diets, some people don't.

And yes, some people do believe that plants deserve as much respect as animals, and they also have every right to live. It is offensive to say the least to be so condescending towards other's beliefs. *sigh*

My apologies to everyone else reading this thread, but I am really offended by what I feel was an attack towards omnivores on a thread specifically asking for omnivorous opinions (the old bait-n-switch). If a moderator feel my post to be out of hand, I will gladly edit it.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
*sigh*

You've inspired me to state it even more plainly. I don't just *think* that plants are just as alive as animals. I *know* that plants are just as alive as animals. Plants ARE just as alive as animals. It is a FACT. They are just two different forms of life. Neither is more alive than the other, or more deserving of/entitled to life than the other, or better than the other.

LOL @ mythological studies


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

What are people who live in areas where it gets too cold to grow vegetable during certain parts of the year? I find that during the winter we eat lots of gourds, kale, apples, broccoli and *more meat* because everything else (that has to be shipped farther distances) is really expensive and not very tasty. I also crave more meat in the winter. I live in Massachusetts, and I think the climate has something to do with that craving.

I wonder what ethical implications people in Mongolia (which is mostly shamanistic and Buddhist) do, when even their livestock die from the cold.

Sure there's canning, pickling, more fermented stuff, but not much in the way of fresh even in New England.

Climate and local food availability don't have much bearing on human diets now, but it seems to me that many humans had to be omnivores in order to survive. Many people still don't have a yearlong source of vegetarian food to survive, be it for economic reasons or availability

I also feel like this thread is feeling a little bait and swtichy too. Many of us who responded stated that we used to be vegetarians and for various reasons found that it was not a way of life or a diet we could or wanted to maintain. Many of the anti meat eating responses are just preaching to the converted and reverted.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
How do you feel about free range, cage free, organic animal husbandry? We do our best to only eat animals that have been treated humanely hence we do not eat veal.

Well, those are sweet-sounding labels, but not particularly meaningful when it comes to animal welfare (look up analyses of these labels at the Consumers Union website: www.eco-labels.org). The only way to truly, accurately know how the animals are treated is to a) visit the farm yourself or b) rely on a stringent humane husbandry certification program, such as Certified Humane or Free Farmed (in the U.S.). These programs also have shortcomings, and don't generally apply to transport or slaughter, but are better than nothing. The less pain and suffering inflicted caused to animals the better. If I felt I needed to eat meat, I'd buy in this way.

One other thing about animal deaths as a consequence of non-animal agriculture: Most of the world's grain (and many other crops) is grown to feed animals that in turn are fed on by us. So meat production in effect, causes a "double whammy" of animal deaths.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
How do you feel about free range, cage free, organic animal husbandry? We do our best to only eat animals that have been treated humanely hence we do not eat veal.

I'm not trying to say this rudely, but your highlighting of veal as an inhumane product that you avoid makes me wonder how much you are familiar with other forms of animal agriculture. Veal calves do fare poorly--but so do many other animals! In fact, I'd rank several other conventionally farmed products (dairy--because of the veal connection; and eggs) up there in terms of cruelty alongside of veal.

IMO, the life of a veal calf is not really much worse than that, say, of pigs or a battery chicken (not to mention the cast-off male chicks born into egg production, who are discarded and then usually crushed or suffocated to death). Veal is an obvious target of outrage, but certainly not the only one.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Sorry--posting too fast--messed up.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
So it sounds like there are people who think that even painless killing of animals would be wrong, so what I want to know now is, what is it that makes painless killing of animals (for food) wrong, and why dosn't it apply to plants? Let's assume we're talking about hunting wild animals, so we're not talking about the whole captivity/treatment/factory farming issue.

If you can't see qualitative differences between the lives and of animals and the lives of plants, I can't be of much help!







:


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Theoretically, how do you know if the animal even feels any pain if the death is so fast?

I'm confused--to whom is this question addressed?


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
Many of the anti meat eating responses are just preaching to the converted and reverted.

Examples? It seems to me like most of the anti-meat posts are in reponse to particular questions about the anti-meat view...


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Here's one:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
There's an enormous difference between a wild animal who is accidentally killed and a farmed animal who, from birth to death, is kept in conditions that range from merely unpleasant to horrendous.

And many small family farms raise their animals in conditions better than what some humans live in.
Wild animals who are killed by other wild animals are often eaten alive. What a terrible way to go. This arguement could go on and on and on....
I was referring also to links on vegetarianism. I would assume that people who were vegetarians for any length of time would be aware of the arguements health, ethical, and otherwise for either side of the grocery aisle.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Here is the statement from Organic Valley:

Organic Valley Farmers Go Further

Our Organic Valley dairy and poultry farmers have many stories about building the barn before the house. Care and concern for animals are always a primary concern for organic farmers. Keeping the organic integrity requires healthy, happy animals since the use of antibiotics and other quick fixes are prohibited.

Many Organic Valley farmers prefer to accept less that 50 pounds of milk per day rather than the usual 70 pounds conventional farmers expect. Farmers observe that this practice reduces stress on the animals and increases longevity.
Where as the average rBGH dairy cow lives only 18 months, Organic Valley farmers have cows as old as fifteen years. Our average cow is over five years old.
All Organic Valley animals have access to outdoors including poultry. Cattle pasture whenever possible. Hogs are not confined and bedded on thick straw. Natural sunlight is required in the hen houses.
Organic Valley animals are raised on some of the smallest farms in America! The smallest farming is about 20 cows and our largest dairy farm has about 400 cows and supports three branches of the same family. Appropriate scale is important to our philosophy of animal welfare.
California Organic Valley farmers also carry the Free Farmed seal. These standards are not as strict as organic and do not mean organic, but the seal is a strong message because it focuses only on humane animal treatment. The Free Farmed seal is assurance to the consumer that the worst factory farm practices are prohibited and that the well being of the animals is of primary concern.
Many Organic Valley farmers will admit, one of the reasons they farm is they love animals. From cows and chickens to horses and barn cats, all are considered part of the harmony of sustainable organic farming.
For more information about Humane Animal treatment, read the livestock section of the Organic rule at www.ams.usda.gov/nop or visit www.freefarmed.org or www.hsus.org.

http://www.organicvalley.coop/who/humane.html

We buy eggs and milk from them. I like them because they treat their employees well and they treat their animals well.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
Here's one:

Wild animals who are killed by other wild animals are often eaten alive. What a terrible way to go. This arguement could go on and on and on....
I was referring also to links on vegetarianism. I would assume that people who were vegetarians for any length of time would be aware of the arguements health, ethical, and otherwise for either side of the grocery aisle.

Parthenia--those quote of mine you used was in direct response to Rhonwyn's statement about animals dying during farming, which, to me, seemed to equate accidental with intentional killing of animals. Why does that seem out of line to you? Sorry, I don't get it...









Quote:

And many small family farms raise their animals in conditions better than what some humans live in.
This is arguably true, (although the vast, vast majority of farmed animals do not experience this sort of treatment). But I don't understand what this comparison has to do with the decision to eat or not eat meat. How is bringing in human suffering and squalor--tragic though it is--- relevant?

I don't know that I'd say its necesarily true that all people who are/were vegetarian are well-versed in all the issues. I know many who are familiar with some aspects (say, animal welfare concerns) but not others (issues with supplementation and good nutrition).


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
Here is the statement from Organic Valley:
...

We buy eggs and milk from them. I like them because they treat their employees well and they treat their animals well.

OV sounds like a decent network of farmers. I don't like to rely solely on a company's PR as evidence of truth, whether for animal products or any other products (formula companies make their product sound pretty great, as well). That's why third-party certification programs (or personal investigation) are my preferred method of sussing out the facts.

It's encouraging that some of OV's producers are Free Farmed certified. It would be ideal if they all were, and I hope OV is moving towards that goal. (It would also be better if Free Farmed addressed transport & slaughter, which I don't believe they do at this point.)

I think it is critical that a third party acts as a watchdog, esp. when organic standards really don't do not go sufficiently far in addressing animal welfare in (See the animal husbandry section of the actual USDA organic standards at: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/stan...odHandReg.html)


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

Where as the average rBGH dairy cow lives only 18 months








That's frightening!

I am not a vegetarian or vegan because I believe _a little_ meat is good for me.

But the bigger reason is because it would be very difficult to convert in this highly meat-oriented society. It takes organization and work. And dh would not support a change to vegetarianism.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
If you can't see qualitative differences between the lives and of animals and the lives of plants, I can't be of much help!







:

I never said that there are no differences between plants and animals. I said that they are two different kinds of living things and I asked why it's okay to kill one but not the other.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parthenia*
Here's one:

And many small family farms raise their animals in conditions better than what some humans live in.
.









I grew up on a family farm. One of our cows was 21 years old and many were in their teens- they had pasture and fresh well water.

Unfortunately all the male calves still went to be raised as veal or steers. It was still eons better than the horror cattle face on conventional commercial dairy farms now.

Other than organic (or buying direct, raising yourself), you can't be sure you're getting anything from a family or small farm.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

kaydeesac said:


> Parthenia--those quote of mine you used was in direct response to Rhonwyn's statement about animals dying during farming, which, to me, seemed to equate accidental with intentional killing of animals. Why does that seem out of line to you? Sorry, I don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## alexisyael (Oct 23, 2003)

I voted for the "healthy for me" choice -- I was a veggie for 9 1/2 years and started eating small quanties of meat again after I realized meat was one of the few things I could digest "slowly" because of my IBS. (Everything else gave me the runs -- not pleasant!)

3 years later, I have the IBS under better control, but I am still eating meat on occasion. Probably once or twice a week. When my body "tells" me I should. Mostly, we still consume veggie products -- boca burgers and the like. If there's a veggie substitute for it, I'll eat that instead of meat.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
OV sounds like a decent network of farmers. I don't like to rely solely on a company's PR as evidence of truth, whether for animal products or any other products (formula companies make their product sound pretty great, as well). That's why third-party certification programs (or personal investigation) are my preferred method of sussing out the facts.

It's encouraging that some of OV's producers are Free Farmed certified. It would be ideal if they all were, and I hope OV is moving towards that goal. (It would also be better if Free Farmed addressed transport & slaughter, which I don't believe they do at this point.)

I think it is critical that a third party acts as a watchdog, esp. when organic standards really don't do not go sufficiently far in addressing animal welfare in (See the animal husbandry section of the actual USDA organic standards at: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/stan...odHandReg.html)


Yes I agree completely. That is one of the reasons I am not voting for Bush. Under his adminstration, the USDA has tried to weaken organic labels to please big agri-business. I do not trust the USDA to be impartial.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I wish I could have voted for more than one thing but I picked "Because it's the healthiest way to eat." I think all you have to do is read some books like Nourishing Traditions to realize that humans have never, ever, ever not eaten some form of animal products, even if we're just talking about yeast, probiotics, and live organisms, larva, and bugs in unwashed food. Even the prototypical "grass-fed" cows aren't vegan .... they eat a ton of insects and larva and probiotic organisms every year since obviously no one washes the bugs or dirt off of the grass they eat.

I would have also liked to pick "Because I like the way it tastes." I love yogurt and kefir, and can't imagine life without delicious cultured butter or ripe cheeses.


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## Zanymom (Sep 2, 2003)

I didn't vote...The closest option for me is the first one. But I don't like how it is written. I don't think that animals are here to "serve" us, but I think that they are here in a recipical relationship with us. I think that there are so many good things that can come from animals, whether it be food, clothing, etc. Man has always found a resource in animals. I don't think an animal should ever be treated with malice. We need to respect all animals, even ones that we use for food. I like how some american indians would say a pray after they had killed an animal. To me that shows great love and respect. So my vote is that they were put on this earth for us, but they must be treated with kindness and respected for all that they do for us.


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

I had trouble choosing. I eat very little meat but I do use animal products. I do my very best to avoid cruelty and factory farms (pretty easy to do in my area, actually). I chose the "healthiest way to live" but in reality it's just the healthiest easy way to live-- I know I could be just as healthy or healthier with a vegan lifestyle if I was willing to work at it.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I think all you have to do is read some books like Nourishing Traditions to realize that humans have never, ever, ever not eaten some form of animal products.


NT is not really an unbiased source of information. In fact, a lot of the problem with finding information on veganism/vegetarianism is that so much of it is skewed one direction or another. It's either adamantly pro-veg or adamantly anti-veg. It's so polarized that it's hard to find impartial information. (It reminds me of trying to find good factual info. on vaccines--it's either the pro-vax camp or the anti-vax camp)

But I want to echo what someone else said in thanking you omni's for not getting into too heated of a debate. (In fact, I want to tell some of the other vegans to cool off a little and not use the big "it's a fact" guns, because that never gets an informative discussion going; rather, it just invites debate). It helps enlighten us vegans as to the reasons behind your choices, as it is obviously hard for us to relate to. My dh is not vegan and I often am confused as to why, when he knows all my "reasons." What is a good reason for one may not be a good reason for another. I'm glad to see that so many of you are at least trying to eat organic, free-range animal products.

Some random thoughts:
I feel the above quote by periwinkle is too broad. What I mean by that is what do you mean by "humans?" If some civilization years down the line had to sum up what "humans" ate now, they would say, "well, they were omnivores," but that doesn't mean that *none* of us are vegan, obviously this is not the case. I wonder if, within traditional tribal mankind, there existed a subgroup of vegans, just as there are subgroups of vegans within mankind now. I wonder this because I could not imagine myself being in a tribe and wanting to eat meat; I think it would just gross me out. (for the record, meat has always grossed me out; before I knew any better, I ate it because I thought I had to, in order to be healthy). I wonder if there's always been weirdo vegans like us and, if so, what evolutionary purpose we serve LOL!

Regarding plants: Call me a bad vegan or human-centric, but I do tend to have a greater affinity for living things on a continuum scale based upon how similar they are to me. For instance, of the animals commonly eaten in our society, I abhor the killing of pigs the most: they are the most our size of farmed animals, they are mammals; I read somewhere they have the intelligence of a 3 year old, which just conjures up images of my dd being slaughtered. Next comes the other mammal: cows, then the other land animals: chickens and turkeys, then the other animals: fish, then insects (I have been known on very rare occasions to consume products with honey in them). For me, plants cross another line that simply feels better to me; perhaps this is just because they are too different for me to relate to. Do the carrots suffer when I rip them out of my garden? Maybe, but they can't look at me, KWIM? For me, it's just different enough. Some raw fooders even claim that killing plants is wrong, and they espouse only eating fruit, because you don't kill the plant in order to eat its fruit. Seems like a nice idea in theory, but I don't know that I could pull it off LOL! I guess for me, it's just a scale of trying to cause the least amount of suffering that I can. You can't cause no suffering unless you learn to eat air. For me, the lifestyle I feel best about is a vegan lifestyle, but it's very good for me to understand where you all are coming from, as well. Thanks!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum2sarah*
I feel the above quote by periwinkle is too broad. What I mean by that is what do you mean by "humans?" If some civilization years down the line had to sum up what "humans" ate now, they would say, "well, they were omnivores," but that doesn't mean that *none* of us are vegan

I mean humans. Since the "dawn of time" when we first walked upright. Forget Sally Fallon, just look in any natural history museum in the world to find an evolving variety of spears, arrowheads, clubs, fishing gear, axes specialized for skinning animals... you name it. Another great book on the subject is "Guns, Germs, and Steel", which traces human evolution and civilzation as to when various grains and animals were domesticated. Then look in the Bible or the Koran or any other religious text to find that even several thousand years ago we were eating dairy products, fish, animal products...

and, most importantly, even if you could make the argument that one person ate nothing but grains or tubers or something ....

Quote:

Regarding plants: Call me a bad vegan or human-centric, but I do tend to have a greater affinity for living things on a continuum scale based upon how similar they are to me.
This is your opinion. But animal is animal... whether close to you on the human continuum or not, in terms of protein, vitamins, type of fats, etc.. In other words, from a nutritional, not a moral, standpoint, eating yeast, bugs, larva, probiotics and organisims, worms, etc. is pretty much the same thing as eating parts of a cow or a pig. I was just trying to point out that the rise (very recent) in human santiation has caused some problems while solving others, namely, that for the first time in our human experience, you CAN eat fruit and vegetables and legumes and grains without the bugs, larva, etc. that naturally go along with them. My example of the "omnivore-but-grass eating cow" was meant to illustrate that point, i.e., even if 10,000 years ago humans only ate roots and grains (and I think there is ton of evidence that we didn't, but let's suppose we did), do you really think they had a salad spinner, fruit wash, a vegetable brush, microbe-free running water and a colander, not to mention tons of free time to clean them all with fastidiously? Anyone who's even been camping or spent a day on a beach knows you eat a lot of dirt and sand when you're out of the comforts of your sterile world LOL! Much less picking a potato out of the ground... yep, it's gonna be COVERED in dirt (and all the living goodies that go along with it).

I have a vegan SIL who doesn't eat any leavened bread because it contains yeast... doesn't eat cultured products because they contain probiotics... doesn't eat honey because it's an animal byproduct, etc. She won't even swat a mosquito. As a result, she takes tons of supplements each day because she recognizes that it is hard for her to get her vitamins and minerals in an easily digestible format. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this, as clearly its her choice and one made for primarily moral as opposed to nutritional or taste reasons. But most vegans I know follow very different moral rules from one another... as you mentioned, you'd have problems eating an "animal" but none eating various other insects, larva, yeast, probiotics, etc. (from a moral, not taste standpoint of course!). I think humans have the capacity to make choices based on moral opinions, which is what led people like my SIL to choose a vegan lifestyle. But frankly if she were living in a tribe thousands of years ago, good luck avoiding animal products much less bug/larva/bacteria-filled dirt, etc. In other words, I think our civilization and education and relative affluence (compared to how our distant ancestors lived) allows us access to chosing veganism without sacrificing (necessarily) our health and in fact perhaps fostering it, for example, for those with high cholesterol or a tendency toward obesity.

I was really not trying to say that being a vegan TODAY is something bad, but that there is no evidence that I've read or seen from a variety of sources that this is a nutritional profile that humans **as a whole** have evolved with.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

periwinkle,
thanks for your clarification. I guess for me, there's a difference between bugs and other animals. I concede that perhaps that is very arbitrary of me. I do try not to kill insects in my house, but I have killed bees that get stuck in my house and I have killed mosquitos. Bugs, to me, seem like a more natural source of animal food for humans, considering our primate relatives' diets. I do not really go much by what I see in "natural history museums" for I feel they tend to glorify the hunting part of human history. IMO, I think it's more likely that in most moderate climates, humans were more "gatherer-hunters" than "hunter-gatherers," meaning that meat was eaten in porportionately much smaller amounts than plants, if for no other reason than the relative scarcity and effort man had to go to to eat meat. In fact I think this ratio of plant to animal is also closely tied to man's environment. Where we originally evolved, with lush vegetation, I would venture to guess the majority of our animal food was in the form of bugs. Surely when man moved to colder climates where vegetation was more scarce, he must have had to rely more on animal foods. I would eat whatever I had to to survive. I guess all I'm saying is that if I were in a tribe in the tropics with lots of other foods available, and my tribesman brought home a game animal that they had hunted and killed, I cannot see myself wanting to consume it. Maybe I would have eaten the bugs that got on my fruit, but I couldn't see myself wanting to eat larger animals. To me, it would just feel gross and unnatural (having to skin it and cook it, etc), and I am wondering if humans like me (not your SIL type extreme vegan) always existed in some form....


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## Poddi (Feb 18, 2003)

I don't have a lot of choices when it comes to food.







After my second pregnancy I developed sensitivity to all sorts of foods I used to like, including rice, some fish, shrimp, tofu, some green vegetables. I also absolutely can't tolerate any multi-vitamins and those nutritional drinks...etc. My son is allergic to fish, eggs, all nuts, shellfish, some seeds... We're basically switching to a bread, meat and veggies diet and everybody seems to be happy and getting enough nutrition. I guess to us it's a healthy diet.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I just wanted to chime in that I dont think the argument that humans have always eaten animals to be a good one. Humans used to also think black people were slaves, women were property and the world is flat. I could go on and on.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
I just wanted to chime in that I dont think the argument that humans have always eaten animals to be a good one. Humans used to also think black people were slaves, women were property and the world is flat. I could go on and on.

I think this argument is very flawed though. When people say humans have always eaten meat they're not talking about the slave days (which actually really makes me sad that you tried to throw that in the mix). They're talking about the beginning of "Mankind." Tribal days, hunter/gatherer days. I think the argument that humans have always eaten meat is more than acceptabe. It's true. It's natural. There is no "right" here. It's an individual choice. I think there have been a lot of good things brought up here that speak well for both sides.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I think Seb. Mom was just trying to make the point that human logic is flawed, and I agree. Although, I also prefer to follow more natural tribal ways where possible myself, as they are in general closer to nature, therefore more in touch with instinct and less with logic.

As another point, in case some haven't seen it - ya seen kentucky fried cruelty lately? It did me in. Totally. You can keep your chickens and no doubt I'll ditch other meat shortly too. Yuk. Humans can be horrible. Climbing off soap box now...


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
I think this argument is very flawed though. When people say humans have always eaten meat they're not talking about the slave days (which actually really makes me sad that you tried to throw that in the mix.

Sebsmommy is far from the only one to compare human and animal slavery. Marjorie Spiegel has written a powerful book called _The Dreaded Comparison_ that looks at the connection between these forms of oppression. Alice Walker wrote the introduction, and has also been outspoken on this issue.


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## amym72 (Jun 14, 2003)

What is this?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
dahl and chapatis .

We are in a very rural area, no specialty shops, health food stores etc... just Walmart and a few local grocery stores that only carry Soy Milk.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
Sebsmommy is far from the only one to compare human and animal slavery. Marjorie Spiegel has written a powerful book called _The Dreaded Comparison_ that looks at the connection between these forms of oppression. Alice Walker wrote the introduction, and has also been outspoken on this issue.

I have seen a quote of Alice Walker's on the subject. However, I will never feel comfortable with anyone comparing black people to animals. It just doesn't sit right with me. Also, Alice Walker's quote that I have read was not in quite the same vein as Sebastiansmommy's comments.

I think the point of my post was missed. I'll try again though. When people say that humans have always eaten meat they mean from the beginning of mankind. They mean the "primitive"/tribal/hunter/gatherer etc. people. That is why the comment she made was flawed.

I've got to be making sense to somebody here.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

You're making sense to me! In other words, eating meat is not some fad for our species. It has always been natural for us.

I, too, could do without the slavery comparison.


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## starlite (Nov 7, 2004)

"Be suspicious of people who claim to love motherhood...yardy yardy yarda!"

Why? Can't women that were abused and tortured by their mothers be good mums themselves? Well I am a terrific mum that would never hurt ANY child and I love motherhood ... so what if I have issues with my actual mother! I don't "always seem to hate" actual mothers - but you can hate the lack of one. Please don't quote things that may offend hormonal women with ptsd! Eat some meat and stop being so 'suspicious' - you gotta be suss on someone that would starve to death before eating an animal!!! Quote that!! (Sorry, just venting here!)


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## Fiona2 (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm not eligible for this poll, but if I was responding to the question 'why are you vegan', I would say because it's possible for me to live healthily without eating any animal products.

I have difficulty with the 'we've always eaten meat' argument. Why not make your decisions based on today's possibilities? And are those in the 'plants feel pain' camp saying there's no point in being vegetarian, because everything feels pain? The responses I admire most are from people who are a) honest with themselves about their choices and b) taking steps to make their choices ethical ones.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

If someone has said that plants feel pain, please quote them.

I do believe that I am making ethical choices. If I thought that eating meat were any less ethical than eating plants, I wouldn't do it.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I agree with Sustainer.

I also wanted to add that I don't agree personally with "eating meat at any cost". No, I don't eat veal or force-fed lamb or goose livers. But would I eat a chicken who has lived a better lifestyle than me? YES! Would I eat grass-fed, pastured, organic beef? Yes! I think there's a difference and I do want the animals I and my family eats to be healthy and well cared for, for both ethical and nutritional reasons.

MamaAllNatutral, yes you're making sense to me on the eating animals / slavery argument. I don't understand how something _some_ humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we _all_ have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo.







Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I don't understand how something _some_ humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we _all_ have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo.







Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.

















Exactly. ITA.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.









I'm on the same page as you and sustainer etc. with the meat eating issue, but I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.

I'm about to call my friendly local organic/free range farmer to see about placing and order for a side of beef. We've visited her farm a few times, those animals have it nice.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.

If anything, I've noticed that people who claim that it's wrong to eat meat are MORE likely to be pet owners. The most flaming animal rights activist I know has 3 cats. I do find it hypocritical, especially when they talk about slavery.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Sicne there's a lot of high-falutin' misinformation being slung about here, I'll clarify on the "pet" issue.

PETA (and many other AR organizations) oppose the term "ownership" for a variety of reasons, both philosophical and legal. We view ourselves as guardians of animals, not as owners of "things."

AR activists DO oppose the *breeding* of companion animals when there are so many in dire need of homes. Most of us do rescue homeless or abused companion animals. Where is the hypocrisy in this?









Most AR people I know feed their dogs a vegetarian diet, as dogs are naturally omnivores and most adapt well to not eating meat. To what degree cats are obligate carnivores is a subject of debate in the AR movement. Some have successfully placed cats on a vegan diet; others adamantly oppose this. I tried to have my (rescued) cats go vegan; they wouldn't do it. My compromise is to only buy them game meat-based cat food, so I am not supporting factory farming (or any animal agriculture) by caring for them.

I wish people would get their facts straight--or even just **ask** for more information--before painting a group with such broad brushstrokes.







:


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Karen, thank you for clarifying the AR and PETA stances. If you go back and read what we were all reacting to, it was a comment that an animal doing work for humans or being kept by humans or being penned/raised to be eaten is animal slavery, which ultimately is akin to human slavery. I know all I was trying to do was point out that owning pets (even if you don't call it "own") is the same thing. Cats and dogs, for example have been BRED over thousands of years to produce a species uniquely tailored for human enjoyment and ownership. That's where I go







*IF* those same people are saying that yoking a cow to plough a field is animal slavery, and worse, that this is no different than being a slave owner in 1830. It looks like we're somewhat on the same page since you said AR activists condemn animal breeding... but I guess, trying to follow the argument of some of the PPs, I would just say back that can't you question the morality of owning ANY pet whether or not you were the one doing the breeding? In other words, if I adopt a greyhound (dog bred for racing... treated inhumanely on the track circuit, etc.) from a greyhound rescue, am I perpetuating this "animal slavery" or not??? What does the act of adoption (ownership) change about the cause of the problem? It's like saying you wouldn't "breed" or "buy" a slave, but if you "rescued" one found beaten in the woods and gave him a home, then you'd be right to keep him for your pleasure and/or use forever? HUH? Again, I 100% wholeheartedly do not agree with this line of reasoning, but I bring it up trying to tear apart the keeping animals = animal slavery = human slavery argument, which is how pet ownership came up since yes, most people I know who are vegan for ethical reasons own pets.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Whether it's called ownership or guardianship and whether they're called pets or animal companions, we're still talking about a situation that is more comprable to slavery than the consumption of meat is.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

can we PLEASE stop comparing African American humans to dogs and other animals? i know i'm not the only person who has felt uncomfortable about this. even if you don't agree w/ the analogy, using it to make a point is distasteful to say the least and even offensive.

i'm unsub'ing from this thread now.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

OMG I totally agree!!! Please don't unsubscribe!! I hope I didn't offend you, I was trying to show how ridiculous and offensive that argument is, i.e., I am HIGHLY offended by people saying that! Please see my previous post where I said it was extremely racist itself to make that argument. I think most of us agree.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Thank you Guerillamom, this was my point. I didn't like that someone tried to downplay my being hurt at using that analogy.

Perhaps I'm just being sensitive. I just don't like any white person trying to use the very painful history of Black Americans to their advantage. IMO it's not right.

*ETA: Periwinkle, just saw your post. I didn't think your posts were offensive.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

My point about how people used to believe that black people could be used as slaves was not to compare black people to animals (i really dont even see how you could draw that from what I said) my point was that humans have often been wrong in their beliefs. I said humans used to believe that black people were slaves, women were property and the earth was flat and we can now see how wrong these beliefs were.
And For what its worth I come from a biracial family.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

My point was, if you are not black, don't use the struggles of Black Americans to promote your cause. It seems simple to me.









I understand what you're saying, that humans can't always be relied on to have perfect logic.

I hope you were able to see what I was saying when I explained what people mean when they say humans have always eaten meat.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Eating meat and slavery should not be used in the same sentence as examples of human wrongness. It should be clear why doing so is inflammatory. And I think MamaAllNatural established that it is historically invalid.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Cross-posted with you, Mama.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

i couldn't figure out how to unsub! :LOL









Periwinkle - I understood that you were trying to make the point that you DON'T believe that. Sebastiansmommy - I understand that you were not making a literal comparison.

Still, I just think that is an analogy that nobody should be touching w/ a 10 foot pole. It's not just some abstract metaphor - the fact is that we live in a nation where, for centuries (and in many minds up to the present, I'm sure), Black people were literally belived to be subhuman, and the wealth of this society was based on this suffering. It's not academic.

It's kind of similar to the discomfort I feel whenever I hear a non-Black person use the N-word. No, actually, it's worse than that.

Well anyway, MamaAllNatural and Sustainer already said it.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

One can compare forms of oppression (racism, sexism, speciesism) without equating the victims of oppression. It is a proud progressive tradition to be willing to take a hard look at how forms of prejudice are interrelated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
My point was, if you are not black, don't use the struggles of Black Americans to promote your cause. It seems simple to me.









Of course, some African Americans DO see similarities in these forms of oppression, and they DO talk about it. All my earlier post said was that Sebsmommy did not concoct this out of thin air, and gave the name of a book that is--based on the reaction it gets in this thread-- rightly titled "The Dreaded Comparison."

(And on a different note, I really don't get how rescuing cats and dogs and helping care for them over their lifetime is more akin to "enslavement" than keeping animals factory farms and using them solely for our own purposes.







But whatever. Seems like the topic is too hot, and for some too painful, to be discussed more productively.)


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
One can compare forms of oppression (racism, sexism, speciesism) without equating the victims of oppression. It is a proud progressive tradition to be willing to take a hard look at how forms of prejudice are interrelated.

And I've asked nicely, and this is the last time I'm going to, PLEASE DON'T equate animal opression with the horrific opression that my Dh's and Dc's ancestors had to endure, which they are still feeling. This is the most upset I have become at MDC. I can't believe some of you are willing to be so relentless when people have made it clear over and over again that you're hurting them.

signing off-


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I've had enough. I'm unsubscribing. guerrillamama, on my page I can scroll down to "thread tools" and click on "unsubscribe from this thread."


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Not sure if anyone is still reading but I did want to say that I am sorry that this line of examining animal rights is so hurtful for some people. This "dreaded comparison" is just one way, but not by any means the most critical way, of looking at this issue, and if it is that hurtful for people, it's not worth pursuing. (I will note that so far as I can see, there has not actually been discussion here comparing slavery of humans with animal agriculture; there has been discussion about whether such discussion/comparing should even take place.)

I've found that similar outrage occurs when animal rights activists compare animal abuse in agriculture to the Holocaust, as some groups -- and many Jewish people and even Holocaust survivors-- have done. I am Jewish and did lose family in the Holocaust, and I am not remotely offended when animal rights books and campaigns examine the similarities between this form of racism and speciesism. So it is hard for me to relate to the anger about this line of ethical exploration.

But I do hear that even the thought of linking these is very painful, and I am sorry for having contributed to that pain. It was not my intention at all.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

And back to the OP...

I didn't vote because none of the options reflected my views. It seems to me that humans are set up to eat meat - we have canine teeth and we have a "taste" for it. I don't think it's any more inappropriate for a human to eat cow than for a cat to eat mouse.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

My response:

I like the way a good medium rare steak tastes as well as a really well cooked chicken breast.

It was the way I was raised.

I buy animal products (including dairy and eggs) from a small family farm where I know the animals had a very good, clean, healthy living prior to coming home to my house as food.

I have nothing against veggies or vegans and could easily be a veggie as we don't eat a ton of animal products.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I tried to be a vegetarian for awhile, because I think that the healthiest diet is composed mostly of raw fruits and vegs







I was trying to follow this diet Raw I still love fresh carrot juice and my toddlers like fresh juice.









For me, I feel better when I eat meat. I tend to get low iron even if I eat loads of spinach.

I am the same way. Also, none of the options surveyed fit me. Since this is not a debate forum- why the biased polling choices?

I feel better when I have a bit of meat in my diet. But we vary our diet so much so we're not meat and potatoes kind of people. Some weeks we may have 3 veggie meals for dinner while other weeks it may sway towards more meat. It depends on sales and our mood what we eat. Last night we had chickpea curry w rise. Tonight it was Ceasar Chicken wraps. It depends on what we have in the house at any given time. Of course we seem to have a bountiful pantry and freezer lately so we will be eating many creative meals to clean out the supply.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Im sorry the choices are so limiting! When I made the question I wasnt trying to make a point with my choices. I truly could only think of those reasons. Sorry!


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## seahorsie (Jul 1, 2003)

I tried to be veg years ago, not ideal for me, though we are mostly veg. Organic poultry once a week, org. eggs often, org. raw milk daily, etc...
I tend to be anemic, so best way to go for me. However, my East Indian guru says to avoid red meat, and eat a mainly veg diet for spiritual reasons - the body's energy is diverted to digestion rather than meditation when eating meat, especially red. (kriya meditation). This is if your are trying to evolve spiritually. My 2.5 year old daughter loves raw milk, btw. She has caries that I am hoping will be healed by drinking it. Her teeth have become much whiter. Rice milk was a big mistake.


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## cookielady30 (Sep 20, 2004)

I found this all very interesting.







I've been a Vegetarian for 25 years now, had 4 very healthy pregnancies, 3 home births,(the first in a birthing center) breastfed til they were 2-2 1/2 and have been told that I have less than half the chance of a heart attack than other women my age (45-yes, ancient history!) I have nothing against killing animals for food, I just don't feel it's necessary for good health. There are so many other whole foods to choose from, there is a wealth of Veg cookbooks to guide even the novice. BUT just like all the other choices you make in your life, this one must come from carefully educating yourself. Also, you must discover how to eat away from home, how to answer people's questions and how to meet the needs at every stage of life. How to cook when your husband is a meat-eater. How to pack a school lunch. How to cook for company. It comes with time just like anything else. If you're pregnant and are craving meat, then eat it or try tempeh, which helped my meat cravings when I was pregnant.


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

I eat meat as part of a balanced diet. I eat fresh fruits, veggies, etc. though I can't stand such concoctions as tofu and soy milk - I find the taste unpleasant and I don't like that some of it simply looks unidentifiable. I can tell what a shoulder roast is and I can tell what an apple or carrot is, but that tofu, in my opinion, looks awful, smells awful and even the name is simply not appetizing. I think it sounds like the gunk in between my kids' toes after they've been running and playing all day. Also, not all animals raised for meat or dairy are mistreated.

I don't doubt that there are farms in the industry that are too big for their britches and don't take the best care of their animals, but I honestly do not believe that this is the industry standard. I've lived on and around farms (mostly cattle and dairy farms) all of my life in VA, SC, and IN. I've been to a number of farms in the west, midwest and in the great lake states. I have yet to see a mistreated animal. As a matter of fact, I find farmers to be very respectful of animals and those I know personally tend to be offended when they are falsely accused of abusing their animals. These farmers don't refer to their farms as "organic" but as far as I can tell they fit that description. These cows get to roam free in miles of pastureland and are well cared for without being doped up. It irks me to see meat labeled organic with an inflated price. It seems like a ripoff to me. It costs more to dope up animals and raise them under factory conditions than to let them roam the fields, so why does "organic" meat cost more? I just feel that the "organic" industry is taking advantage of a misguided fear that all farm animals are abused because a handful of farms that are probably run by large companies that know crappola about what it means to be a farmer don't care properly for their animals.

As for those who see "fear" in the eyes of a cow in a truck off to the slaughterhouse, I'm not sure they've been around cows enough to know what that look they see is. Yes, cows are intelligent animals, but they aren't psychic. Honestly, how would they know where they are going when they trod up the ramp into the truck? If they feared where they were going, why the heck would they trod up that ramp in the first place? It's no more torture than strapping an unruly child into a carseat for a trip to the park.

I've also lived near and helped out in slaughterhouses. I have yet to see an animal exhibit any feelings of pain or fear. The process is very quick and respectful. Think about it - the workers processing the cattle really aren't interested in trying to control animals who are frightened or in pain - that would just mean more work and unnecessary trouble for them.

As far as health goes, I believe a balanced diet is best. The most healthy people I have met are all farmers who eat loads of fresh fruits and veggies as well as meat. Besides that, the iron in plants just doesn't cut it for many people, including me, and I have to eat red meat or I become very anemic. The most unhealthy people I know personally are those who eat too much processed food including meat without eating a lot of fresh foods and those that won't eat meat at all. I have a city friend who won't eat any kind of meat or dairy. She says dairy causes people to produce too much mucus contributing to things like sinus infections and the common cold, yet she is the first to get the sniffles every fall.

As far as why we eat cows and not cats and dogs - to me every animal has something it's good at or for. It's all part of the "circle of life". Cats are great mousers and do a wonderful job of keeping diseases at bay, so it would just be silly to slaughter and eat it! Dogs do all sorts of great things and I don't see any problem with their function as a companion. I don't like it when people don't respect their pets and don't take good care of them, but that's not the same thing. Keeping a dog should be beneficial for the human and the dog - they should be companions to each other. Just like I can't stand trophy hunters who go out and shoot deer for no other reason than to have a head to hang on a wall, I can't stand people who collect pets as a novelty since most of those people simply don't take good care of their animals.

To a true farmer, the mistreatment of animals is simply appalling. There is no group of people more respectful of the lives and needs of animals than true, honest to goodness farmers. Those who abuse livestock aren't real farmers IMO, those are businessmen who need to find a different business to be in, but I don't think it's right to turn away from good farmers because of a handful of bad seeds. It seems to me that there ought to be a better way to get these big business folks to stop mistreating animals than to put good farmers who really care about their animals out of work.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
I've also lived near and helped out in slaughterhouses. I have yet to see an animal exhibit any feelings of pain or fear. The process is very quick and respectful. Think about it - the workers processing the cattle really aren't interested in trying to control animals who are frightened or in pain - that would just mean more work and unnecessary trouble for them.

That's great that that has been your experience. But even the meat industry itself acknowledges that abuse and mistreatment of animals, the infliction of tremendous amounts of pain and stress, and mismanged, inhumane slaughter happen frequently. Temple Grandin's site, www.grandin.com, probably has more comprehensive information about pain, fear, and stress in farmed animals than any other site (and since she is a consultant to the meat industry, she cannot be accused of animal rights bias).

Family and small scale farms do, I think, have a better record of humane animal husbandry. But they are being replaced more and more by large-scale farms and CAFOs. I would not call factory farms the exception; they seem more like the norm, esp. with pigs, chickens, and eggs.


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## dawnadelle (Jul 20, 2003)

My whole family follows the "Eating Right For Your Blood Type" diet. We are all O's and within the diet, we simply eat what feels best. It reccomends NO dairy and tons of meat (ick!), poultry and fish. I make it a balance within what I can handle - financially, emotionally, nutritionally.


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
That's great that that has been your experience. But even the meat industry itself acknowledges that abuse and mistreatment of animals, the infliction of tremendous amounts of pain and stress, and mismanged, inhumane slaughter happen frequently. Temple Grandin's site, www.grandin.com, probably has more comprehensive information about pain, fear, and stress in farmed animals than any other site (and since she is a consultant to the meat industry, she cannot be accused of animal rights bias).

Family and small scale farms do, I think, have a better record of humane animal husbandry. But they are being replaced more and more by large-scale farms and CAFOs. I would not call factory farms the exception; they seem more like the norm, esp. with pigs, chickens, and eggs.

Like I said, I don't doubt that such things occur. You say factory farms _seem_ like the norm, but are they really? In my experience they are not the norm, they are simply the appalling extreme that catches the eye of those of us who give a darn about the animals that are being mistreated there. In reality, how many of these big factory farms are in operation compared to the number of farms where animals are well treated?

It is wrong that these animals are mistreated, but boycotting meat has more impact on the true farmers who respect and care for their animals than on these big factory farms that can afford to take some beating. In essence, we are giving more power to the abusers by eliminating their more compassionate competition for them. It just seems to me there ought to be a better way.


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## queen bee (Nov 19, 2001)

I eat meat 'cause it's the natural thing to do. Humans are omnivores. Of course nature didn't intend us to be eating meat pumped full of god knows what, so it takes a bit more work and $$ to find meat fit for human consumption.

I don't eat a lot of meat, but when it's good, it's reallllllly gooood.

qb


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
In reality, how many of these big factory farms are in operation compared to the number of farms where animals are well treated?

It is wrong that these animals are mistreated, but boycotting meat has more impact on the true farmers who respect and care for their animals than on these big factory farms that can afford to take some beating. In essence, we are giving more power to the abusers by eliminating their more compassionate competition for them. It just seems to me there ought to be a better way.

Did you read this entire thread? If so, you can see how many people in this thread say they only eat from small/organic farms? Small farms can reach out to the 95% of Americans who eat meat; the 5% of vegetarians who don't aren't hurting their business. If small farms are struggling, vegetarians are not to blame--there simply aren't enough of us to give the market a "beating."

As for small/large farm #s here are some links. Do some research and you'll see that your perspective (that small family farms are more the norm) is not shared by, well, anyone else that I know of). I have yet to read material from either animal, environmental, or organic advocacy groups, or see an article about CAFO & industrial farming, that do not talk about the loss of family farms to agribusiness, and how industrial scale farms do not now dominate agriculture.

Common Dreams (originally published in St. Paul Pioneer Press)(http://www.commondreams.org/views/123000-102.htm):

Quote:

Factory Farms Continue To Be A Blight On Landscape
by Ralph Nader

A concentrated food industry and concentrated factory farms have combined to throw rural America into one of the worst crises it has ever faced.

Federal and state regulators have failed to curtail the merger frenzy among livestock firms, or the surge in factory farms that are polluting water supplies and poisoning ecosystems.

Now comes hope that the judicial system may offer some relief, at least from the worst excesses of the factory farm system. But while a new legal initiative launched by a coalition of environmentalists, family farm groups and trial lawyers may begin to reverse the abuses of the factory farmers, by itself it will not be sufficient to save the American family farm -- the primary source of knowledge and experience in this country on how to farm sustainably.

As a result of the past decade's merger mania, the top four cattle processors -- IBP, Monfort (owned by ConAgra), Excel (owned by Cargill) and Farmland National -- collectively control about 80 percent of the market -- double the rate of two decades ago.

The top five hog processing companies -- Smithfield, IBP, Excel, Monfort and Farmland -- jointly control 63 percent of the market. And Smithfield proposes to increase its market share still further by merging with IBP. Regional concentration levels -- often more important to farmers, especially small farmers for whom it is often impractical to ship livestock long distances -- are even higher.

Accompanying the horizontal integration has been a vertical integration that has choked the open market for cattle and hogs. The big meatpackers now own and operate massive factory farms, or contract in advance with factory farmers for a specified supply. Small farmers find that the open market has shrunk so that there is barely any demand for their products.

And what goes on at the giant factory farms?

``A typical hog factory farm has several metal barns, each containing several hundred to several thousand animals tightly confined cheek by jowl,'' the Natural Resources Defense Council reported in a 1998 study. ``Unlike traditional family farms, where pigs live in spacious barns in which straw bedding absorbs manure, or where they root about outside and leave their manure to decay in a pasture or open lot, these animals live in cramped conditions and may never see sunlight. They spend their lives standing on slatted metal floors, beneath which their feces and urine are flushed. The manure is piped into open-air manure lagoons.''

All too often, these enormous pools of manure leak into the rivers or contaminate underground aquifers, endangering public health and killing fish and wildlife. Outbreaks of pfiesteria have been linked to manure contamination of water supplies.

A 1999 survey of 10 states by the Clean Water Network and the Isaak Walton League found more than 100 spillages in the previous year, with more than 4.5 million gallons of manure spilled or leaked into water sources. A single lagoon burst at a Murphy Family Farms factory farm in North Carolina poured 1.5 million gallons into local rivers.

The odor from factory farms also is a major nuisance and public health menace, making life unpleasant for the unlucky neighbors of the monstrous farms.

Factory farms have sprung up around the country, with virtually no effective national or state regulation.

Earlier this month, a coalition of environmental and family farm groups, including the Water Keeper Alliance, the Sierra Club and the National Farmers' Union, announced they were taking matters into their own hands. Partnering with leading trial lawyers, they pledged to use civil litigation to try to enforce the nation's environmental laws.

The Water Keeper Alliance says it already has initiated a half-dozen lawsuits against factory farm operations for violations of the Clean Water Act and other federal environmental laws.

Success in this legal campaign should curtail the poisoning of water sources across the country. By forcing farm operations to respect the law and internalize some of their costs, it may deter the spread of factory farms, and should create a more level playing field for family farmers.

But as important as this effort may be, it is not a cure-all. The industry concentration in the meatpacking sector is incompatible with a vibrant family farm sector, as are many federal farm policies. On the livestock side, groups such as the Organization for Competitive Markets are encouraging the federal government to use its existing authority, under the Packers and Stockyards Act, to promote open and competitive markets, a moratorium on new agribusiness mergers, as well as other measures to counteract policy and market power biases toward the big meatpackers.

Time is running out to save the American family farm, and the rich family farm tradition of political populism and stewardship of the land.

But with the Bush administration set to continue the corporate agribusiness bias of the Clinton tenure, the future does not appear bright -- absent a rekindling of the spirit of the agrarian populist movement that forced major changes in America's politics and economy in the late 19th century.
From Grace Factory Farm Project (http://www.factoryfarm.org/whatis/):

Quote:

Meat production in the United States has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. Many of today's farms are actually industrial facilities, not the peaceful, idyllic family farms most Americans think of. These factory farms are also known as confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs) or intensive livestock operations (ILOs). They emphasize high volume and profit with minimal regard for human health, safe food, the environment, humane treatment of animals, and the rural economy - in other words, factory farms are not sustainable.
From Humane Farming Association (http://www.hfa.org/factory/):

Quote:

"*Loss of Family Farms*
Family farms are being squeezed out of business by their inability to raise the capital to compete with huge factory farms. Traditional farming is labor intensive, but factory farming is capital intensive. Farmers who do manage to raise the money for animal confinement systems quickly discover that the small savings in labor costs are not enough to cover the increasing costs of facilities, energy, caging, and drugs.

The increase in factory farms has led to a decrease in the price independent farmers get for their animals, forcing thousands out of business. The number of U.S. farmers dropped by 300,000 between 1979 and 1998.

During a recent 15-year period, hog farms in the U.S. decreased from 600,000 to 157,000, while the number of hogs sold increased. Consolidation has resulted in just 3 percent of U.S. hog farms producing more than 50 percent of the hogs. Similarly, 2 percent of cattle feed operations account for more than 40 percent of the nation's cattle. In the poultry industry, the number of "broiler" chicken farms declined by 35 percent between 1969 and 1992, while the number of birds raised and slaughtered increased nearly three-fold.

The demise of small farms in the U.S. has been helped along by actions of the federal government. Congress, influenced by strong lobbying groups, has consistently passed federal farm programs benefiting the large agricultural corporations. According to the Center for Public Integrity, between 1987 and 1996, the food industry made campaign contributions of more than $41 million to federal lawmakers.

The bias against small farms continues despite the appointment of a special commission in the late 1990s by then-Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman to study how small farms have been displaced by factory farms and how the trend might be reversed. The report from that commission, titled "A Time to Act," described the enormous social costs of the destruction of the American family farm, as the economic basis of rural communities in the U.S. diminishes and rural towns are "lost." "
From the Sierra Club's CAFO Fact Sheet (http://www.sierraclub.org/factoryfar...ctoryfarms.asp):

Quote:

CAFOs Threaten Our Rural Communities

Factory farms are displacing the local family farm and rapidly altering a way of life for many rural communities. In the past 15 years, the number of hog farms has dropped from 600,000 to 157,000, but the total hog inventory for the United States has remained virtually the same because of the increase in these large- scale corporate animal factories. The decline of neighborhood farms also hurts other local businesses that depend on these farmers to buy their grain, farm equipment and other products. And the air and water pollution these factory farms create depresses the real estate values of nearby properties. In one Illinois county, property values for homes near the smelly operations plummeted by 30 percent.


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## deejay (Jul 11, 2003)

I think I might have the weirdest answer yet. We tried for a couple months but I am allergic to raw fruits and veggies - weird, I know. But, dh wanted to go veggie, so I bought all the soy products and veggie stuff. The soy milk made me want to hurl and the tofu made my son sick once and I never cooked it again. Today, I still don't eat beef or pork and chicken is just getting to be boring to eat too. Fish is still a part of our diet though, as well as the soy nuts that I absolutely love. My son however is allergic to nuts too *sigh*. There were just too many things all of us couldn't eat so I gave up.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cookielady30*
I found this all very interesting.







I've been a Vegetarian for 25 years now, had 4 very healthy pregnancies, 3 home births,(the first in a birthing center) breastfed til they were 2-2 1/2 and have been told that I have less than half the chance of a heart attack than other women my age (45-yes, ancient history!) I have nothing against killing animals for food, I just don't feel it's necessary for good health.

Yep, it's great that you've found a healthy way to eat that works for you. I've tried cutting back on meat, but for *me*, meat/animal products *are* essential to my health. I feel horrible and am cranky without it. My iron gets low without it.

I'm not sure what you feel you need to roll your eyes at.... everyone is different. Your diet would never work for me, but I realize that I am not you, and can't know how you feel. It's







that you have managed to find a way for you to eat healthily, and super that you've had such great pgs, births, and success with nursing.







I have found the way to eat that is healthy for me -- everyone needs to find what works for them.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
Im sorry the choices are so limiting! When I made the question I wasnt trying to make a point with my choices. I truly could only think of those reasons. Sorry!


Thanks for the clarification!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

LMC - Yes, Factory farms ARE the norm. They have taken over family farms in insane numbers and although there may not be that many of them, they are huge - each producing the amount of meat that hundreds of family farms used to produce.

And I'm sorry, but vegetarians and vegans are NOT having a harmful effect on the small farmers. In fact, I think they help by spreading awareness of animal cruelty and unhumane farm treatment, which then causes people who DO eat meat to demand better treated animals - and this works! Just check out the number of organic farms, and even agribusiness which has gone into organic production of milk and meat because the market demand is there. And the more people buy consciously, the more often they are going to buy from small farmers since they tend to have much more humane ways of treating their animals.

I'm a vegan and I buy from small organic farms as much as possible for my fruits and veggies. If I ate meat, I would do the same, and I greatly respect meateaters who do so. It certainly sounds like you do, so thanks! Your heart is in the right place but I believe you aren't fully informed about how the majority of animals are treated in farms and slaughterhouses. I know you've been to farms and seen animals treated well, roaming about, etc. Most farms that DON'T treat animals well will NOT let you in to see them. They know what you would see and wouldn't want it. You should read Fast Food Nation and Dominion - not to convert you (the author of FFN isn't vegetarian) but just for you to see how the majority of farms treats both the animals AND the human workers. The slaughterhouse industry is the *worst* industry to work for if you are a human for injuries, accidents, etc. along with psychological problems. And no, it isn't cheaper to raise animals in a free-range way - otherwise the large businesses would do it. For example, it costs one penny to use a bolt gun, which renders the cow completely inconscious when actually killed. But most factory farms don't use them. Why? Because it's too expensive! I would pay an extra penny for my meat if I knew the animal was treated better - most people would, but they don't want to deal with it.

Please take some time to do research in this area - I think you'll find that boycotting those large corporations (i.e. "farms") is very important and they do marketing research to find out what people want. When they know the market demands better treated animals, they do it because it will make them more money.

Oh, and "organic" labeling originally refered not to the treatment of the animals but to the food and medication given. However, some of the organic laws now DO refer to the treatment of animals. And you know why? Because those great organic farmers you spoke of demanded it. They felt it was important. So for example, poultry and eggs from those poultry labeled organic must, besides having no antibiotics, hormones, etc. in their bodies and no pesticides in their food, have access to outside ranges that include natural vegetation. And while the big industrial farms tried to lobby against this, the small farmers who were on the board overwhelming voted it in, 12-1. So I think the opposite is true, given the fact that people want meat that is healthier and treated better, the small farmers are actually forcing the large ones to conform to their standards. And this is better for everyone!

So I think this is the better way you were speaking of, and I am certainly happy about it!


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

I believe that for me personally, eating some meat is healthy. Without it I become anemic.

Although I have a very hard time eating organic meat all the time because it's simply not readily available here, I feel it's important to do so if one has a choice. I feel that way not just because of facts I've read about the industry, but because I happen to be one of those unfortunate enough to live near cattle feedlots and huge confinement dairy operations. We have to move now because the stench has gotten so bad. Our air is filthy, and some of the water around here is unfit to drink. I'm enraged that this has been allowed by our government to continue. No human or animal should be forced to breath air that smells like sewage. It's cruel.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Fastfood nation & Food politics are both good reads for veg and non veg alike!


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## Amandzia (Aug 16, 2003)

I was vegetarian for years, then when I was pregnant the first time, I was so hungry for meat and I didn't go back to being vegi for many years. Then I went back for health reasons (my dh had high blood pressure and colesterol) and for moral reasons (my dd started researching about factory farms). Recently I have been eating meat maybe once a month and only from local family farms. For me, the real issue is the factory farms. In fact, I think it's probably more in line with my beliefs to obstain from factory produced milk products but eat some family farmed animals. I get my eggs from my friends who keep chickens.
My dd, however, won't eat any meat for moral reasons.

Looking over the posts, I see that there is a great range of eating styles. The lines aren't so very clear in my opinion. My dd however thinks eating meat is wrong, period and can't see the continuum.
Thanks for creating this thread. It's interesting.


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## lacysmommy (Nov 10, 2004)

My reason isn't up there. I was a vegetarian for 7 years (and a vegan for some of that time, too). My DH is a hunter and fisherman and I started eating meat after we were together. We will probably never go veggie again because DH is not a trophy hunter-- we eat the meat he harvests. We would eventually like to phase out to completely organic or self-harvested foods in the future. I never understood people who ate meat from the grocery store but hated that people would hunt for food. The animals killed in the woods had a better life than the animals sold at the store ever did. That is my main reason for wanting everything organic/self-harvested. About half the meals we eat are vegetarian, but I don't think we'll ever go completely veggie as a family.


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## jujujoy (Jun 23, 2004)

I was a vegetarian for a few years. I just think it is wrong to eat animals, mainly because of the way they are slaughtered and the lack of respect for them as living beings. But, and I hate to admit this, I eat meat now because my husband is a meat lover, my kids hate veggies, and it was too difficult to fix 3 different meals every night!

As my children grow and accept a larger variety of foods, I will go back to my old eating habits with the hopes of only making 2 meals a night!







I felt so much better, and I hate the feelings of guilt that I get from consuming meat. Also, I just think it is gross.

What can I say? I just love animals!


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## sunnylady303 (Sep 17, 2004)

I haven't read all the response but I am sure someone said this already. I was vegetarian off and on for 10 years because I was disturbed by how animals were treated. I think for me it is healthier to eat meat and now I only eat meat from one of three farms near me that I have been to. They treat their cows and chickens really nicely and slaughter them humanely. They are also not given any hormones or antibiotics.


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Sorry I don't have time to read all of the responses so far - but did anyone else notice that all of the poll options seemed to suggest that meat eaters are either unthinking or just plain insensitive? Can't say I was thrilled with the wording of this poll.

I was vegetarian for years and vegan for a few stints. I never felt well. I stuck to it out of principle but my body did not thrive on a veg diet. Now I do eat mostly vegetarian but we have some form of meat once or twice a week (usually in small amouts) and dairy most days of the week and some eggs. I feel healthy. I purchase all of our meat from a local organic farmer. I buy only organic cheese and organic milk when I can afford it. We eat lots of legumes, nuts, fruits and vegetables and whole grains, very little sugar and preservatives. I do not believe that any one diet is best for all people so we need to learn to respect and listen to our own bodies and not listen to what the expert all tell us - whether they promote meat consumption or a vegan diet. No one will ever convince me that a veg diet is best for all humans any more than a predominantly meat based diet is best for all humans. Those living in the tropics don't need whale blubber and seal meat any more than the Inuit need lentils and leafy greens as their mainstay to survive or thrive.


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## lao80 (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm not on a diet, but this is insulting.

"I'm on a fad diet like atkins that condones eating meat"


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I went vegetarian for health reasons back in May. Not because I think meat in unhealthy, but because of the unhealthy stuff they put in meat and the way meat is mass slaughtered.

I have gone back to eating meat. However, I buy my meat from a local ranch and have talked to the owners a number of times on their farming practices. They have a great product and practice farming practices I can live with. I can also trust that the meat is safe because of their feeding practices (I live in Alberta and the thought of mad cow is still very real). I also buy my poultry and lamb from a local farmer for the same reasons.

I personally believe that there is a lot of nutrition in meat. I don't eat near as much as I used to. I have about one serving/day and get the rest of my protien from other vegetarian sources.


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## Amandzia (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lao80*
I'm not on a diet, but this is insulting.

"I'm on a fad diet like atkins that condones eating meat"

What is insulting about that statement? Is it because it calls atkins a "fad" diet? I don't think that word has such a bad connotation. It's the latest craze and anybody _I_ know who is on it knows that. I doubt the person who wrote that meant to be offensive, but I tend to give people the benifit of the doubt.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shantimama*
Sorry I don't have time to read all of the responses so far - but did anyone else notice that all of the poll options seemed to suggest that meat eaters are either unthinking or just plain insensitive? Can't say I was thrilled with the wording of this poll.

This was addressed in previous posts.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amandzia*
What is insulting about that statement? Is it because it calls atkins a "fad" diet? I don't think that word has such a bad connotation. It's the latest craze and anybody _I_ know who is on it knows that. I doubt the person who wrote that meant to be offensive, but I tend to give people the benifit of the doubt.

I think the objection was more to the use of the words "condones eating meat," which suggests that eating meat is ordinarily a sinful activity that one must be given permission to engage in.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

I read "condones" as being different from most nutritional guidance, which says to limit consumption of meat, particularly meat high in sat. fats.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
I read "condones" as being different from most nutritional guidance, which says to limit consumption of meat, particularly meat high in sat. fats.

Well, you may have read it that way, but the grammatical construction of the sentence indicates otherwise. Now, if it read "which condones eating copious amounts of meat at the expense of other food groups" then you'd have a case.









Of course, we could be wrong anyway and that's not the part the PP found offensive!


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## Jenmama (Aug 27, 2004)

I'm a vegetarian most of the year, but a couple of times a year, I've gotta have crab legs. I just love them. Everytime I say I am a vegetarian my daughter points out that I ate crabs legs one time a few months ago. Oh well, there is just something about the lemon and butter that I just thoroughly enjoy. Other than that we eat mostly organic and vegetarian. Unfortunately my older daughter will eat meat with the family, but eats veggie at home.
I like to keep it real. If we go to the movies, we'll have those yellow #5 nachos and a Sprite. I think if the foundation of food we eat is healthy that we are free to enjoy life in the unfortunate mainstream culture of hydrogenated oils and high fructose syrup.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"I'm a vegetarian most of the year, but a couple of times a year, I've gotta have crab legs."

Jenmama, just had to tell you that I almost spit my juice when I read that. PMSL!
PS. I love em too!!


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## suburbanrebel (Jun 2, 2004)

I eat only organic meats and dairy products. If I can't afford it or can't find it, I don't eat it! I feel better when I have a small amount of meat in my diet, and I dont think I could live without cheese. But I do think about whether or not I really want to eat animal products at all and may phase them out one day. I am adamantly opposed to factory farming and even my cats eats organic


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## lunamomma (Mar 10, 2004)

I have been veggie, vegan and raw at some point over the last 10 years. Although i now eat all veggie, nuts, grains, fruit and salmon. my ds just had fish this year - he likes it sometimes. my main reason for eating salmon is that my body responds so well to it. although i reserve the right to change according to what my body needs. i still have weeks at a time with all raw or fasting (when I;m not b'feeding)
Great Poll!!!!


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## memory maker (Dec 11, 2003)

I voted I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat. I was veggie for 6 months. I lost weight, which I didnt need to since I am thin to begin with. I was always hungry. I then started having some depression problems. I noticed that when I added meat back into my diet the depression lessened a lot. I know for a lot of people vegetarian is the best way to eat, as I started being being veggie because my dad had heart problems and I wanted to be healthier. Overall I feel better when I do eat some meat, although it is not every day and it is in limited amounts when I do.


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## texcalkas (May 12, 2004)

I voted but didn't like any of the reasons. I was raised eating meat and DH grew up on a cattle ranch where meat was served three times a day. We stayed that way until going to K-State where we met folks from other parts of the world who had grown up vegetarian. That coupled with a very limited food budget made us give up meat.

Fast forward to pregnancy #3. We were still eating only meat analogues which very quickly began to disagree with me. I farted like mad, belched up the nastiest smells and just got the creeps thinking of eating more beans. I craved steaks, hamburgers, sausage, anything not plant-based. I've now had a second baby and am even less vegetarian than ever. DH refuses to eat fake meat but won't eat the real stuff either SO, I cook beans for him and sneak hamburgers once in a while. I figure my body knows what it needs and I'd better listen to it.

Kimberly


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## firesnake (Jun 1, 2004)

I didn't like any of the choices either though, I guess, health would have to fit.
For the price, especially from the "it'll expire soon, eat it tonight" bin at the health food store, meat is a fast, dense, inexpensive source of protein and iron if you only eat a little, like in a stir fry.

But really I switched from a vegetarian to an omnivore after travelling around south america and hitchhiking through some of the more economically disadvantaged parts of the U.S.

The idea of refusing something to eat, particularly protein, because it didn't fit your values was foreign at best and insulting at worst to the people I met. I didn't feel comfortable with the luxury I had to deny some foods that were healthy for me when I knew other people didn't have that choice.

So I turn away the artificial, hormone laden, chemical crap and eat my natural meat and dairy and veggies and grains and gratefully say thank you for it all.


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## CRosewhisper (Aug 26, 2004)

I voted in the "meat is yummy I can't help myself" category. We already are dairy-free and to be "meat-free" on top of that, for me, would be too hard. Because I have thought about cutting out eating land animals but my hubby likes meat too much. It would be a real struggle to make us all happy.

So we buy farm raised, non-drugged up beef and pork products from a local butcher. Which taste better AND are cheaper than the meat at the big grocery stores.









Like others have said, I have a problem with the factory farming way of providing meat products for the masses. I do not have a problem with consuming animals. It's really in how the animals are treated, I think.


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