# What is EMO? Parents need to know...



## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

I recently found out about this fashion/lifestyle from a K-8 school counselor. If you have teenagers it is worth it to watch...






http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/3428171

Thanks!!


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## canadianchick (May 18, 2005)

Interesting.... thanks for sharing!


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Eh. Every generation has there janra. The 70s had druggies, 80s had punkers, the 90s had goth kids, "gangster" kids, and grunge kids, and now we have emo kids. It's just another way of expressing teenage angst. Most "emo" kids like the look and do it to fit in. Those who do cut themselves, I'm betting that most do it to look "cool" or for attention. It's actually not that common to find kids that cut because of a deep-seated psychiatric illness that needs professional treatment. I used to cut myself for attention, because it made people feel sorry for me. It was a very stupid thing to do, but I was very young at the time and feeling the normal teenage feelings of loss, confusion, and anger. I grew up and got over it, as most kids do.

Overall, I don't think the "emo" thing is any more dangerous or worrisome than raver kids, gangster kids, goth kids, punk kids, ext. The bottom line is that parents need to vigilant with their children and keep the lines of communication open. Don't be too judgmental, understand and get to know your kid, and intervene when necessary.


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## snowyowl (Dec 27, 2006)

It is definitely good for parents to know about this sort of thing but both of these reports are heavily sensationalized in order to increase ratings. (Or in the case of the Fox News one, because that's the only kind of manipulative reporting Fox is capable of.)

I'm not saying that some emo kids don't have problems but please take these reports with about a bucket of salt. From _Reefer Madness_ in the 1930s through the evils of rock and roll, subliminal messages in heavy metal, dungeons and dragons, etc. every generation of parents has faced fear mongering like this. Not all emo kids cut and not all cutters are emo. Sometimes the most troubled kids are the ones that, on the surface, seem perfectly ordinary. And sometimes it's the subculture kids that have their heads screwed on right, even if they're dressed all in black.


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## snowyowl (Dec 27, 2006)

angelpie545, you read my mind


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I think the media is doing a great job in spreading the word. Look how fast jelly bracelets appeared after sensational news reports saying they stood for something. I mean, before that, not too many kids thought they meant _that_, but hey, if the news reports it, it must be true! Now they can get cool points!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

"emo" style has been around since I was a teen and I knew tons of emo people and none of them cut themselves. I do think it's sensationalized quite a bit.

Angelpie - do you mean "genre"?


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
"emo" style has been around since I was a teen and I knew tons of emo people and none of them cut themselves. I do think it's sensationalized quite a bit.

Angelpie - do you mean "genre"?

Ha ha yea. I used to be a good speller..I guess after kids and not being in school for years I'm a little rusty.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Most emo kids I know (and I know quite a few) are perfectly normal teens. Neither my son nor I know a single one who cuts. The concerts I've taken him and his friends to are full of nice, decent kids who happen to dress differently from the "mainstream". The music is generally quite thought provoking, if a bit angsty.

Like with every group, there are a few worrisome folks. But that's no reason to buy into the mass hysteria.


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## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
Most emo kids I know (and I know quite a few) are perfectly normal teens. Neither my son nor I know a single one who cuts. The concerts I've taken him and his friends to are full of nice, decent kids who happen to dress differently from the "mainstream". The music is generally quite thought provoking, if a bit angsty.

Like with every group, there are a few worrisome folks. But that's no reason to buy into the mass hysteria.

ditto ditto ditto. I will go even further to say that I spend a LOT of time in the schools here and for the most part, the EMO kids are the ones who are socially advanced, socially aware, socially responsible, question their responsibility to the earth and it's inhabitants and have less true drama going on in their lives. really.


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## DoctorKaren (Sep 5, 2007)

That is so great that so many of you don't know any teenagers who are cutting. I've known quite a few - including my 17 year old brother - and it is an extremely painful experience, and oddly addictive. So not all emo kids are cutting, and emo kids are not the only ones who cut. Nevertheless, it is an unfortunately prominent issue among teenagers. This is a pretty good resource about it: http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/your_...h/cutting.html


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Emo kids seem to be a hybrid of beatnik and goth lite. The ones I've met have been sweet and just trying to show that they aren't part of the consumerist, "popular" stupidity.

I think that cutting and other psychological issues are independent of "emo-ness". But that makes for a better news story.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoctorKaren* 
That is so great that so many of you don't know any teenagers who are cutting. I've known quite a few - including my 17 year old brother - and it is an extremely painful experience, and oddly addictive. So not all emo kids are cutting, and emo kids are not the only ones who cut. Nevertheless, it is an unfortunately prominent issue among teenagers. This is a pretty good resource about it: http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/your_...h/cutting.html

It is an issue, but connecting it to a fashion is creating false paranoia, imo, and probably making it more of an issue.


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## DoctorKaren (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
It is an issue, but connecting it to a fashion is creating false paranoia, imo, and probably making it more of an issue.

That's certainly true!







The false paranoia around teenagers in general is often quite high!


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## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

First off, I do not have teenagers...yet. I haven't been around teenagers that much as an adult. However, what I do know is that this issue was a big deal in the school district that I live in. The schools sent parent alerts home and the counselors were concerned and asking parents to be on-guard. Therefore, based on how "experts" were reacting to this issue I felt it would be worthy of a post here on MDC. Honestly, I'd never even heard of anything like this and wasn't too concerned, but then I don't have teenagers. Neverthless, I believe it's important that parents are at least armed with this information. So...that was my motivation in posting originally, not to be an alarmist.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
Emo kids seem to be a hybrid of beatnik and goth lite. The ones I've met have been sweet and just trying to show that they aren't part of the consumerist, "popular" stupidity.

I think that cutting and other psychological issues are independent of "emo-ness". But that makes for a better news story.

















:

My brothers are still in school and talk to me about this a lot. I don't see it as much different or any more dangerous to any of the genres I belonged to or had experiences with in school. The guys wearing super-tight pants from girls' stores confuses me, but I'm just not "cool", so...


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I had to







My husband is an old school punk rocker, and he always used to tease the emo kids that it (emo) would be the next big fad.

Cutting of course is serious, but it has nothing to do with emo. I was a cutter and I was never "emo." In a few years something else will be the fad and they'll be doing news reports on it, too. And emo will be forgotten, alas. QQ


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I had to







My husband is an old school punk rocker, and he always used to tease the emo kids that it (emo) would be the next big fad.

Cutting of course is serious, but it has nothing to do with emo. I was a cutter and I was never "emo." In a few years something else will be the fad and they'll be doing news reports on it, too. And emo will be forgotten, alas. QQ


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Oops, sorry for the double post!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
I think that cutting and other psychological issues are independent of "emo-ness". But that makes for a better news story.









ITA 100%

and LOL @ 'EMO points' on the website featured on the news story. That website was clearly a hoax.







:


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## Cassifrass (Aug 29, 2007)

When I was in high school (admittedly not THAT long ago...) we used 'emo' to describe kids who listened to indie rock, wore lots of black and thick-framed glasses even though they weren't perscription, wrote poetry, etc.. They weren't heavy enough to be 'goth' or grungy enough to be 'skaters' but somewhere in between. I was friends with a few of them in my little eclectic circle. I was more 'hippie' than emo, goth, or skater, but eh. High school is all about labels.

The 'emo' stuff I see now is nothing like the phrase we used to use. It was never associated with angst or self-harm.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Sorry LOL!


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## sunnybear (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
Emo kids seem to be a hybrid of beatnik and goth lite. The ones I've met have been sweet and just trying to show that they aren't part of the consumerist, "popular" stupidity.

That's a bit different from my experience (and boy, was my college -- I am 23 -- filled up with emo kids!). The ones I've known have rich parents who pay for their college tuition, expensive SUVs, expensive vintage clothes, etc...then the kids whine about how horrible/boring their privileged lives are, how horrible/stupid/whatever their parents are... The more dramatic ones pull the "I cut myself so I can feel SOMETHING..." thing (and of course, none of them actually do). They were like slightly goth versions of Paris Hilton.

Maybe that's just the emo kids who come from a wealthier background. I couldn't stand that attitude, so I keep away...and stick with the goth clubs.


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassifrass* 
When I was in high school (admittedly not THAT long ago...) we used 'emo' to describe kids who listened to indie rock, wore lots of black and thick-framed glasses even though they weren't perscription, wrote poetry, etc.. They weren't heavy enough to be 'goth' or grungy enough to be 'skaters' but somewhere in between. I was friends with a few of them in my little eclectic circle. I was more 'hippie' than emo, goth, or skater, but eh. High school is all about labels.

The 'emo' stuff I see now is nothing like the phrase we used to use. It was never associated with angst or self-harm.

That´s what it was like when I was in HS to. I was having a conversation with my 12 y/o SD about Emos and mentioned that they sure are different than what we called Emo´s in HS. And she proceded to inform me that was because the kids that went to school with me were NOT in fact Emo, because it didn´t exist ¨back then¨ (she was probably 4 at the time). She was also shocked to hear that I listened to GreenDay when they first came out with Dookie. Yes they have been around ¨that long¨


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

My Emo son is also far more consumerist than my non-Emo daughter. His music is kind of growing on me, though, and there are things I like about his little subculture, but I'd definitely like to draw him away from the mall and towards the thrift stores.

I'd gladly lend him my non-preggo pants, but tight girl pants don't seem to be his style. I think his clothing and hairstyle choices look good on him and I do like that he's been writing more since "going emo".

I think I'm confusing this thread with another thread on TAO: my dd was just as alarmed as the OP when he started becoming interested in emo culture, and had quite a bit of explaining to do before I finally understood what she was talking about. ds has had more than his share of problems and I'm not saying he hasn't, but after finding out that a "trusted family friend" had a xanga site devoted to comparing notes with other perverted predatory paedophiles who were stereotyping and preying on "homeless emo kids", the mother tiger in me came out and I am willing to defend to the death my son's right to make his own choices in clothing, music, hairstyles, etc.


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## smillerhouse (Aug 5, 2006)

Today, My daughter, 14 was telling me about "scene"-that is expressive, Mom she says, without the cutting that often goes along with emo. She is Home schooled but is at the local high aschool LOTS because of being on sports team. She is very creative and the kids that she is drawn to stand out in some way (most conform too much for her.) The two girls she hangs out most wear the rainbow belts,the bright clothes-which some ask if that means they are gay.
At this age they change so much even every day, and want her to have that freedom and not be totally captive to the whims of other teens that are changing that many times. Sallie


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoctorKaren* 
That's certainly true!







The false paranoia around teenagers in general is often quite high!









: I was a teen in the mid 80's, this reminds me of being described in my area as a surfer or dead-head (or after I graduated, my younger friends, a raver).. Yawn...

I have a teen and my DH is in a national underground band, so maybe I have a different view. I don't know.


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## jeanieloz (Sep 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangebird* 







: I was a teen in the mid 80's, this reminds me of being described in my area as a surfer or dead-head (or after I graduated, my younger friends, a raver).. Yawn...

I have a teen and my DH is in a national underground band, so maybe I have a different view. I don't know.

I hear that.
I wouldn't worry about my kids being EMO, and I'm sure I would notice anything totally off about them, we do live together......
I went to Raves, and had a BLAST with my punk weird friends. It was so cool to be "out there" and a non conformist. I can only wish my kids have the same experiences, as they were interesting and unique.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
Emo kids seem to be a hybrid of beatnik and goth lite. The ones I've met have been sweet and just trying to show that they aren't part of the consumerist, "popular" stupidity.

I think that cutting and other psychological issues are independent of "emo-ness". But that makes for a better news story.










ITA with this, and as a mother of a teen I LOVE EMO music lol


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

I know an awesome MDC mama who is a self-described "emo punk loving mom".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snowyowl* 
every generation of parents has faced fear mongering like this. Not all emo kids cut and not all cutters are emo. Sometimes the most troubled kids are the ones that, on the surface, seem perfectly ordinary. And sometimes it's the subculture kids that have their heads screwed on right, even if they're dressed all in black.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
Emo kids seem to be a hybrid of beatnik and goth lite. The ones I've met have been sweet and just trying to show that they aren't part of the consumerist, "popular" stupidity.









All the kids that work at the local Hot Topic are emo. I go in there often, and the emo kids are the most polite teens I've ever encountered.

My 17-yo son is into ska music, and lots of his friends are emo to some degree.
I can't complain too much about the kids he hangs with - which is probably more than my mom could say about my friends when I was 17!









Quote:

_I think that cutting and other psychological issues are independent of "emo-ness". But that makes for a better news story.







_








:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovbeingamommy* 
Therefore, based on how "experts" were reacting to this issue I felt it would be worthy of a post here on MDC.

Even "experts" can be taken in by sensationalism and fearmongering - esp when it concerns teenagers. Seems like everyone is forever dreading the next "teen epidemic".


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## marisa (Apr 23, 2002)

It's so weird to me how emo has morphed into what it is today. To me, it's bookish college indie rockers who wear 70's style velcro running shoes, tight jeans and tight vintage t-shirts with black horn rimmed glasses. The boys were sensitive and sang songs about complicated relationships with girls and literary themes...there was none of this despair and goth influence. Now I see kids calling themselves emo and it's not about the music at all anymore - just a look.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm new to this forum. In fact, this is my first post. I stumbled upon this thread while researching the emo fad. I'm a therapist at a mental health facility. I had been thinking like many of the individuals in this thread. We all had our fads growing up. I did the long hair, wearing black, playing guitar (badly-lol), back in the 80's. Now that I've dated myself, I have to say that my experience over the past several years has changed my mind about emo. I my work, I spent the first seven years of my career (most of the 90's) working in an outpatient mental health clinic. During that time, I saw hundreds of kids. My coworkers combined saw many times that number. During all of that time, I was aware of only one case of self injury. It was formerly a relatively rare occurrence. In 2000, I transferred to another program in my agency, and we began to see more and more cases of self injury. We also began to see more kids calling themselves "goth", or emo. Again, myself and my colleagues thought that this was another fad, and these kids would look back at old pictures one day and say "I can't believe I wore that!" A few years ago, my family relocated so I could accept a job as a program director. Since then, we have seen dozens of cases of self injury and attempted suicide. The only common factor linking these cases is that approximately 90% of the "cutters" are self identifying emo kids. After all of this, I began to question the connection between self injury, suicide, and emo. Once I started seeing the online emo communities, the music lyrics, the poetry that emo's publish, and looked at suicide statistics, I became very alarmed! I still find it ironic that myself, the former metal head, is decrying a teen fad, but the facts spoke to me. Of course, not all emo's cut, and not all cutters are emo, but I do believe that there is a connection between emo and some very destructive behaviors. I'd be happy to share my research with anyone that wants it. Thanks for your time, and I look forward to any feedback that you have


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I do believe that there is a connection between emo and some very destructive behaviors.

But didn't we see the same dynamic in the hardcore punk era (Sid Vicious, et al) in the late seventies/early eighties? Some of those kids were pretty self-destructive, too.

I think that some kids are just self-destructive to begin with, for whatever reason, and then tend to identify with a trendy movement in an attempt to justify (?) a dark identity that they don't have the proper tools to deal with. JMO.


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## Doc_Girl (Sep 20, 2007)

My son is emo and Ive had no trouble with him beside the fact that he comes homes sometimes with stories about being made fun of cuz the way he dresses and looks.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

I think my general intent here is to call attention to the fact that I've seen dozens of "emo" kids that have cut themselves badly enough that the only way they'll lose the scars is to see a plastic surgeon. I've seen others that have made some rather serious attempts to kill themselves. I'm differentiating this from attempts that are more "cries for help"(which are dangerous enough in their own right). I can see that other fads have had destructive influences in one form or another. What I am saying here is that kids are trying to kill themselves in numbers I haven't seen before. Some are succeeding. I regularly deal with school teachers principals, counselors, and so on. I also speak with crisis workers and inpatient psych unit staff. We're all seeing the same thing. Five to seven years ago, I would have said, "it's just a fad." Current events have changed my mind on this one.


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## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I think my general intent here is to call attention to the fact that I've seen dozens of "emo" kids that have cut themselves badly enough that the only way they'll lose the scars is to see a plastic surgeon. I've seen others that have made some rather serious attempts to kill themselves. I'm differentiating this from attempts that are more "cries for help"(which are dangerous enough in their own right). I can see that other fads have had destructive influences in one form or another. What I am saying here is that kids are trying to kill themselves in numbers I haven't seen before. Some are succeeding. I regularly deal with school teachers principals, counselors, and so on. I also speak with crisis workers and inpatient psych unit staff. We're all seeing the same thing. Five to seven years ago, I would have said, "it's just a fad." Current events have changed my mind on this one.










Thank you so much for making me feel validated for beginning this thread. Also, since posting the original news links, I've talked to several people also involved with children in crisis that assure me this is a serious issue and should not be taken lightly by parents. I've also visited a children's behavoral center in my area and talked with some nurses and doctors who admitted that there has been an increase in depression and suicidal attempts in children under 18. I'm glad to see that many people who posted on this thread do not have children with this type of issue, but they may know someone that does and could encourage them to get help from a responsible adult such as a parent, teacher, or counselor. I just want parents to be informed and to be able to look out for the earliest possible signs of a problem. I would think it's easier to make positive changes when an issue is caught earlier as opposed to later.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

Back when I was in high school, emo kids dressed somewhere between "punk" and "preppy" and were into feeling what they feel without being embarrassed and listening to music nobody else knew about. Seems it's evolved since then.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I think my general intent here is to call attention to the fact that I've seen dozens of "emo" kids that have cut themselves badly enough that the only way they'll lose the scars is to see a plastic surgeon. I've seen others that have made some rather serious attempts to kill themselves. I'm differentiating this from attempts that are more "cries for help"(which are dangerous enough in their own right). I can see that other fads have had destructive influences in one form or another. What I am saying here is that kids are trying to kill themselves in numbers I haven't seen before. Some are succeeding. I regularly deal with school teachers principals, counselors, and so on. I also speak with crisis workers and inpatient psych unit staff. We're all seeing the same thing. Five to seven years ago, I would have said, "it's just a fad." Current events have changed my mind on this one.

so you honestly think emo causes kids to cut, NOT that kids likely to cut are drawn to emo? because if kids are really cutting themselves as a fashion/fitting in statement, that's just....







:

i cut myself for 10 years. i was never emo, and i never did it to fit in with anyone. i only stopped in my mid-20s because i decided i was too old to express my upset in that way.

but cutting yourself to fit in is just...sick, really. i have a hard time believing self-mutilation is really becoming a fad. couldn't it be that emo is causing kids who cut to be identified (as emo, thus possibly cutting), so people figure out kids are cutting more often than they used to?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I do believe that there is a connection between emo and some very destructive behaviors.

Well, of course there is - kids that are attracted to that scene are often attracted to it because it speaks to them at that same level that cutting does - it dulls the pain.
I'm a former metalhead (or maybe still







), and a former cutter - I was suicidal at 12, tried to kill myself a few times in my early teens, then discovered that the physical pain of cutting negated the emotional pain I was going through "Pain is Constant", one of the laws of the universe, or so I thought at the time. It had nothing to do with anyone else, I wasn't "attention-seeking" (and did and still do find that attitude among adult article writers/therapists to be incredibly condescending), I didn't even share it with anyone. Likewise, blasting Suicidal Tendencies, Metallica, etc, also helped dull the pain, and to this day I credit picking up a pack of smokes and listening to "Tornado of Souls" by Megadeth with saving my life.

Nutshell: if you do suspect emotional problems with your kids, don't ban their music, it's energy might just be saving their lives


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
Well, of course there is - kids that are attracted to that scene are often attracted to it because it speaks to them at that same level that cutting does - it dulls the pain.
I'm a former metalhead (or maybe still







), and a former cutter - I was suicidal at 12, tried to kill myself a few times in my early teens, then discovered that the physical pain of cutting negated the emotional pain I was going through "Pain is Constant", one of the laws of the universe, or so I thought at the time. It had nothing to do with anyone else, I wasn't "attention-seeking" (and did and still do find that attitude among adult article writers/therapists to be incredibly condescending), I didn't even share it with anyone. Likewise, blasting Suicidal Tendencies, Metallica, etc, also helped dull the pain, and to this day I credit picking up a pack of smokes and listening to "Tornado of Souls" by Megadeth with saving my life


That pretty much sums up my experience as well. I would also agree that cutters are more likely to be drawn to Emo as opposed to Emo people being into cutting.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Doodlebugsmom and readytobedone. Ironically, I met with a family just today and we ended up talking about how the "emo" music and lifestyle can resonate with kids that are depressed. I've definitely seen that. For a depressed kid, emo may act as a trigger. We've always had sad songs, and people always gravitate towards things that reflect how they think and feel. Unfortunately, now the music comes with an acceptance of self harm and suicide as viable ways to deal with despair. I have also seen kids with no history of depression or family chaos that suddenly get into the scene and cut. I've also seen kids do it because that was what everyone else is doing. Very sad.

I understand the resentment for people thinking that "cutters" do it for attention. Unfortunately, there are those people as well. They tend to have personality disorders (or are on their way to having one). I've seen people that only wear shorts or short sleeved shirts on days after they have cut. That seems to "poison the well" for the others, who are then stereotyped.

Cutting has addictive qualities. When someone cuts, the body releases endorphins, which are the bodies natural painkillers and "feel good" drugs. The endorphins hit the brain, and there is temporary relief. However, just like in substance abusers, the pain returns, and the person eventually cuts again. I've heard kids talking about stopping cutting, staying away from it for a while, and then doing it again. It honestly reminded me of how many times it took me to quit smoking! This can become an addiction, and can do so rather quickly.

Here's a website that may help. I made it. It was done quickly, so please disregard typos and coding errors. I made it for the parents of the client's I see through my work.

I hope I've clarified a bit here. Thanks for pointing out weaknesses in my writing.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Oops! Forgot the link to the website. Whatisemo.bravehost.com
Later


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
Well, of course there is - kids that are attracted to that scene are often attracted to it because it speaks to them at that same level that cutting does - it dulls the pain.









:

Quote:

I'm a former metalhead (or maybe still







), and a former cutter - I was suicidal at 12, tried to kill myself a few times in my early teens, then discovered that the physical pain of cutting negated the emotional pain I was going through
Yup - I think I may have been 13 when I started feeling suicidal, but otherwise the same. My cutting seems to have been different than a lot of what I'm seeing described, in that it was only in one area (inside of one wrist) and I kept it very carefully hidden. But, it went on for several years.

Quote:

It had nothing to do with anyone else, I wasn't "attention-seeking"
<snip>
I didn't even share it with anyone. Likewise, blasting Suicidal Tendencies, Metallica, etc, also helped dull the pain, and to this day I credit picking up a pack of smokes and listening to "Tornado of Souls" by Megadeth with saving my life.
Different favourite bands, but...oh, yeah. In my case, I believe to this day that if Iron Maiden hadn't recorded "Still Life" in 1983, I'd be dead.

Quote:

Nutshell: if you do suspect emotional problems with your kids, don't ban their music, it's energy might just be saving their lives








Uh, huh. The music that _really_ made me want to jump off a bridge or blow my brains out was happy, happy pop - it just made me feel even more alone and disconnected from everyone around me. I just couldn't get how people could be so damned _happy_, and why nobody seemed to understand that some of us...weren't...

I don't know much about emo, but I'm not going to blame any teenage trend for my child's behaviour. I saw _way_ too much of that scapegoating when I was young...I'll never forget how many people used to tell me I'd be happier if I stopped listening to such "depressing and angry music"...never mind that I'd been struggling with severe depression for 2-3 years before I ever found that music.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I have also seen kids with no history of depression or family chaos that suddenly get into the scene and cut.

What exactly does "no history of depression" mean? I had no "history" of depression when I discovered metal...at least from the outside. I hadn't made any attempts at suicide, and hadn't started cutting. But, the thought that I'd be better off dead had been with me daily for over 2 years. My family wasn't perfect, but it was hardly "chaos"...two loving parents, and a sister I was incredibly close to, and a much-admired older brother. We spent lots of time together and my parents were very respectful and understanding. At some point, I "suddenly" started to cut. At some point, I "suddenly" downed a bottle of pills...no obvious triggers, and nobody but a couple of my friends ever knew (I faked a stomach bug the day I spent puking up from the pills...and never let on that my head was full of cotton and my ears were ringing for four days). Occasionally, I just couldn't cope, anymore, and I'd try to find some way to deal.

I don't think I was officially diagnosed with depression until shortly before my 30th birthday...at which time, my history of it was almost 20 years long.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't think I was officially diagnosed with depression until shortly before my 30th birthday...at which time, my history of it was almost 20 years long.

Same here. I was just really good at hiding it. No weird clothes, funky hair, piercings - I was just a plain old farm girl with severe depression.

Instead of cutting, I was a binge drinker.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Storm Bride, What I referring to by saying no history of depression is that I've seen kids with no apparent problems, or history of problems, or things in their history that would cause depression, suddenly start to self injure after getting into "emo". There would be no factors in their past, such as an alcoholic parent, a death in the family, trauma, and so on that would contribute to or cause depression. The only change in their lives was "emo." When they start dealing with a "culture" that finds self injury or suicide acceptable, or even promotes it, and they start doing what the "culture" is promoting, it's pretty easy to make the connection. This was also said to contrast with what other posters said regarding depressed kids being drawn to emo. While this is also quite true, there are other cases where,again, the only change was that they went "emo". I'm glad you did seek treatment though, and I hope you are feeling better. 20 years is a long time to deal with depression. Was there a family history of depression??

Also, Still Life is excellent. If you read my previous posts, I'm a former metal head as well. There are many a day when Iron Maiden or Metallica blares in my car on the way home after work. Metal has always calmed me as well, pop always has annoyed me, especially the computer processed crap that passes for music these days. I know it seems contradictory for me to be saying what I am, but there are too many facts for me to observe. When you deal with kids for about ten years, and you see little of something, and then suddenly you see a ton, you start to ask questions. Again, the lowest common denominator is emo. Whether it triggers kids that are already depressed, or causes other kids to get on the bandwagon, or a combination of both, it's all the same, kids are carving themselves up and some are dying. Otherwise, I'd just be waiting for the passing of another annoying teen fad.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
Storm Bride, What I referring to by saying no history of depression is that I've seen kids with no apparent problems, or history of problems, or things in their history that would cause depression, suddenly start to self injure after getting into "emo". There would be no factors in their past, such as an alcoholic parent, a death in the family, trauma, and so on that would contribute to or cause depression.

Okay, don't really know how to address this, but as you are a therapist, I _really_ think you need to assess the possibility that you're getting it backwards or at least keep it in mind enough not to come across as condescending with your clients.

I grew up in a very "happy" middle class home. Two parents who love each other and all of us very much. Anti-spanking, even. Never had anyone with drug or alcohol problems in the family, dad was an accountant and is a very even-keeled rock of a guy, fun to joke around with, mom stayed at home and baked cookies with us until we all went to school, etc, etc. Never had anyone close to me die, even to this day . . . on and on. No family history of depression, _nothing_. Probably less of a reason to be depressed than anyone you're even seeing.

Please reread my post with that in mind. Please do not make assumptions about what's going on with your clients before you really know.

Incidentally, turns out my depression has been fixed in recent years with switching to traditional foods and being mindful of nutrients that are involved in brain chemistry.

And I very strongly believe that the change into depression was related to not having enough of certain nutrients, especially certain fats and fat-soluble vitamins (nonsynthetic) for my body to sustain the changes that go along with puberty.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
so you honestly think emo causes kids to cut, NOT that kids likely to cut are drawn to emo? because if kids are really cutting themselves as a fashion/fitting in statement, that's just....







:

i cut myself for 10 years. i was never emo, and i never did it to fit in with anyone. i only stopped in my mid-20s because i decided i was too old to express my upset in that way.

but cutting yourself to fit in is just...sick, really. i have a hard time believing self-mutilation is really becoming a fad. couldn't it be that emo is causing kids who cut to be identified (as emo, thus possibly cutting), so people figure out kids are cutting more often than they used to?









:

I knew *many* cutters in hs, too. None of which were emo. Of course emo is "new" to me.









I don't believe that emo is what causes kids to cut. Kids who cut or have other issues may be drawn to certain ways of expressing themselves, though.


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## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
Most emo kids I know (and I know quite a few) are perfectly normal teens. Neither my son nor I know a single one who cuts. The concerts I've taken him and his friends to are full of nice, decent kids who happen to dress differently from the "mainstream". The music is generally quite thought provoking, if a bit angsty.

Like with every group, there are a few worrisome folks. But that's no reason to buy into the mass hysteria.

the emo kids are actually called, "Scene" now...which i know because my little brothers friend and wife are big into the scene crowd. They don't cut though, they are both really big christians (not that that's a bad thing...i am too, lol!)

On another note, i was big into self injury when i was about 14-20. Cutting mostly. And i want to add i didn't do it to be "cool" although i noticed lately that cutting is TRENDY which makes me sick. I suffered from depression, drug use, drinking and eating disorders and i don't recall where i heard about cutting...it kinda just happened.

Now they have whole talk shows talk about it and celebrities (marilyn manson, dude from chemical romance, etc) are open about it...trendy.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

HerthElde, thanks for your comment. I guess to explain myself, I believe all psychiatric symptoms have a cause and a context. I do a very thorough history with all of the clients in my program. I usually spend about 1 1/2 to 2 hours on this. It's all about putting the symptoms in their context; when did they onset? what was happening at that time? were there any significant changes? and so on. It's terrible to suddenly uncover some detail that was missed when you are six months into treatment, because it wastes everyone time, and the wrong treatment can cause someone to feel worse. Even in your case, there was a cause for your depression. I have heard of medical conditions or nutritional problems that can cause psychiatric symptoms, I'm glad you found your answer. For others, a possible cause for teen depression may be puberty itself, especially since there are a storm of hormones involved.

Sorry if I seem condescending. I really don't know who I'm talking to here. I don't know how much people on this board know about depression, therapy, and so on. More than likely there is a wide variety. I'm trying to explain a lot with as few words as possible. So if I'm over explaining things a bit, I apologize.









By the way, I agree with your earlier post about taking music away. that would create more problems than it would solve.

dnw826, I think I've stated in earlier posts that not all emos cut and not all cutters are emo. Myself, and many other professionals have seen a significant spike in suicide attempts and self injury. This corresponds in time with the increase in the emo fad. Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the cutters I see are self identifying emos. The CDC released earlier this month that the suicide rate for teen rose significantly in the last few years when the rates for other groups dropped. I can't think of much more to say on that.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
HerthElde, thanks for your comment. I guess to explain myself, I believe all psychiatric symptoms have a cause and a context. I do a very thorough history with all of the clients in my program. I usually spend about 1 1/2 to 2 hours on this. It's all about putting the symptoms in their context; when did they onset? what was happening at that time? were there any significant changes? and so on. It's terrible to suddenly uncover some detail that was missed when you are six months into treatment, because it wastes everyone time, and the wrong treatment can cause someone to feel worse. Even in your case, there was a cause for your depression. I have heard of medical conditions or nutritional problems that can cause psychiatric symptoms, I'm glad you found your answer. For others, a possible cause for teen depression may be puberty itself, especially since there are a storm of hormones involved.

Sorry if I seem condescending. I really don't know who I'm talking to here. I don't know how much people on this board know about depression, therapy, and so on. More than likely there is a wide variety. I'm trying to explain a lot with as few words as possible. So if I'm over explaining things a bit, I apologize.









By the way, I agree with your earlier post about taking music away. that would create more problems than it would solve.

dnw826, I think I've stated in earlier posts that not all emos cut and not all cutters are emo. Myself, and many other professionals have seen a significant spike in suicide attempts and self injury. This corresponds in time with the increase in the emo fad. Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the cutters I see are self identifying emos. The CDC released earlier this month that the suicide rate for teen rose significantly in the last few years when the rates for other groups dropped. I can't think of much more to say on that.

No no, I didn't mean to say you were coming across as condescending _here_, but had I ever been to see a therapist as a teen who had an underlying assumption that, for example, Metallica made me depressed/made me cut or whatever, I would have found it condescending and wouldn't have gotten much out of the relationship. I just want to make sure you're able to relate to these kids without that presupposition, kwim?
It's just - I never had a "reason" for being depressed. And so, I avoided talking to anyone about it, because I was convinced I'd end up on medication to correct a brain chemistry issue - which likely would have happened, as even today most doctors/therapists/etc don't recognize the effect of missing nutrients on brain chemistry or the fact that nutrients from different sources have varying degrees of bioavailability and that different people have varying abilities to process them . . . if you really want to be a rock star therapist, you should look into getting an assessment of your clients' amino acid levels, vitamin and mineral levels, etc. Then you'd be my hero








I don't doubt that you're very thorough and am very impressed that you're furthering your knowledge through a forum such as this! 'Specially given how rabid mom forums can be







Keep up the good work!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Reminds me of grunge from when I was in high school, but thankfully, much sexier. Except for the cutting, of course. Jim Morisson, Morissey, Kurt Cobain, and whatever... nothing new. Even the style isn't new- it's recycled from punk, goth, and rave. Don't tell the kids that, though.









Re: cutting: People have been doing that for a long time. I agree that cutters are more likely to be drawn to the alternative scene than the other way 'round, and it's not hard to know about cutting.

"Nutshell: if you do suspect emotional problems with your kids, don't ban their music, it's energy might just be saving their lives"

Couldn't agree more. Offer to talk about the more destructive lyrics, but don't ban it. Sometimes people need to feel they aren't alone in how they feel, especially people in turmoil.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Therapist Guy ...

You remind me of a priest (also a licensed counselor) I encountered while taking a "Pastoral Care - Specific Issues for Youth" class (I'm a certified youth minister). We were discussing teen suicide. He presented a list of red flags to look out for. One was black clothing.









I argued that point 'til I was blue in the face. I said that I thought it was over-generalized and stereotypical. Many in the class (like myself, parents of teenagers) agreed with me. He insisted that teens who regularly dress in black clothing was almost always something to be worried about.

When I got home, I discussed the issue with my (then) 16-yo son. He agreed that it was a gross generalization, and rather insulting to teens who just like black clothing.

I asked him about the emo thing, too; and his repsonse was pretty much the same.

I don't doubt that cutting is on the rise. I can't blame teens for being depressed over the world today. The omnipresent media _bombards_ them with negativity - they are constantly saturated with terrorism, war, death, global warming, overpopulation, unemployment, inflation, etc., etc. It was not like that when I was a kid. The news was on at 6 and 11, not all day long; and it was more balanced. We didn't see the daily graphic images that are _de rigeur_ in today's world. We didn't hear that the whole world was gonna fall apart by the time we managed to become adults. We weren't over medicated for ADD/ADHD, bi-polar disorder, anxiety, and ... depression. IMO - No wonder more kids are cutting. How are they supposed to cope emotionally with all this stuff that even us adults have trouble dealing with?


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Maybe it's changed?

I have twin sisters who were "Emo" in HS and part of college. Let's see, that was from about 2000-2004 or so ... it seemed more about liking a certain type of music and being into a certain music scene (they knew lots of garage bands, etc) than anything else. Sure, they dressed a certain way, but they certainly didn't cut themselves or anything else. One graduated from Berkeley and the other Santa Barbara. They are healthy, well adjusted (albeit still quirky!!) adults.


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## nandodianenicole (May 31, 2006)

I start off by saying I know nothing about EMO right now but have heard the term a lot from my sister who works a lot with teens and has a teen stepbrother. There's a guy who works with me who does the EMO BOY comic books--he's an awesome artist. I just asked him about the correlation with EMO and cutting and he was actually intereviewed about it. Here's the link.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-...nkind-cut/full

It was an interesting artice.
IMO every generation has its thing, its music and its style, this is just another one.
PPs were right that things like devil worshiping, drugging, etc were associated with music types, generations but werent really done by all or just one type of music genre.


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## smillerhouse (Aug 5, 2006)

As always it is encouraing and allowing self expression. Plus, responding and being tuned into my daughter. I fidn she changes,at 14 many, many times aday. It is ironic becasue seh is really not very emtional so it ss not a huge draw for her but deep out od the box, at tiems that attracts her (and me). Sallie


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Just my two cents on the issue. I'm still a very naive psychology student, but I'm writing a paper that
touches on this subject. My professor and myself have been meeting a lot to discuss middle school
children and the rise of emotional problems, so this subject has been swimming in my head for awhile
now.

I'm 32, graduated in 1993 and I don't see a lot of difference between the emo kids of today, and my own
sad friends that would listen to Depeche Mode and complain about how unfair and ugly the world is. I
remember a time in HS where we made sure we went places in groups because the "jocks" were starting
to target us and a friend of ours was beaten severally.

I watch the two news reports and I find it sick how they are inventing this scare tactic for parents to worry
about. I don't see a connection to cutting and emo. I see a lot of kids out there who aren't being listened to,
don't have family dinners, are sad, and have nobody to talk to about their feelings. Then they discover emo
which allows them a sense of belonging and normalcy. Yes then maybe some will cut, and some will try
to commit suicide. Mostly I feel the music, the belonging, the "I'm not the only one who feels like this" is
the exact thing the person needs, and more than not saves them.

BUT the news reports make it seem like the music and lifestyle are driving these individuals to become
depressed. Which is (in my opinion) total BS, and will lead many parents to fear something that doesn't
exist. I have a dd, and I fear for her emotional and mental health in the future because mine has been
so cloudy in my own past. I would hope that I would take a cue from my own Mother and not fear the
way my daughter expresses herself, but try to open a window to conversation with her about it.

I don't deny that suicide is on the rise, or that more are cutting, that might very well be. But it's much
more of a society problem, and not a "emo" problem. Emo is the scape goat.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I don't deny that suicide is on the rise, or that more are cutting, that might very well be. But it's much
more of a society problem, and not a "emo" problem. Emo is the scape goat.

Hallelujah!


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spero* 
Therapist Guy ...

You remind me of a priest (also a licensed counselor) I encountered while taking a "Pastoral Care - Specific Issues for Youth" class (I'm a certified youth minister). We were discussing teen suicide. He presented a list of red flags to look out for. One was black clothing.









I argued that point 'til I was blue in the face. I said that I thought it was over-generalized and stereotypical. Many in the class (like myself, parents of teenagers) agreed with me. He insisted that teens who regularly dress in black clothing was almost always something to be worried about.

When I got home, I discussed the issue with my (then) 16-yo son. He agreed that it was a gross generalization, and rather insulting to teens who just like black clothing.

I asked him about the emo thing, too; and his repsonse was pretty much the same.

I don't doubt that cutting is on the rise. I can't blame teens for being depressed over the world today. The omnipresent media _bombards_ them with negativity - they are constantly saturated with terrorism, war, death, global warming, overpopulation, unemployment, inflation, etc., etc. It was not like that when I was a kid. The news was on at 6 and 11, not all day long; and it was more balanced. We didn't see the daily graphic images that are _de rigeur_ in today's world. We didn't hear that the whole world was gonna fall apart by the time we managed to become adults. We weren't over medicated for ADD/ADHD, bi-polar disorder, anxiety, and ... depression. IMO - No wonder more kids are cutting. How are they supposed to cope emotionally with all this stuff that even us adults have trouble dealing with?

Please don't overgeneralize me! LOL. If you read my earlier posts, or visit the website. I have said that not all emo's cut and not all cutters are emo. As a former all black wearing metal head, I agree with you that the priest was going beyond the realm of rational thought.

You mention the negative messages that kids receive from the media. That is all true. The one thing that you leave out is the music that portrays cutting and suicide as an acceptable solution to problems. You also left out the websites that do the same, and even give an "how to" for cutting. You can't really say that the news and the other sources that you mentioned are part of the problem and leave out the media (music) that is the most important to kids!!!! The kids listen more to music and apply more meaning to it than what they see on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and so on.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

hmmm...note to self...skinny black jeans = self destructive behavior.

blah.

Disturbed children behave in disturbed ways. Some wear Ralph Lauren.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
You mention the negative messages that kids receive from the media. That is all true. The one thing that you leave out is the music that portrays cutting and suicide as an acceptable solution to problems. You also left out the websites that do the same, and even give an "how to" for cutting. You can't really say that the news and the other sources that you mentioned are part of the problem and leave out the media (music) that is the most important to kids!!!! The kids listen more to music and apply more meaning to it than what they see on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and so on.

A "how to" for cutting? How hard can cutting yourself be? Knife/razor. Skin. Gimme a break.

As for the music...how about bringing up a NEW line of faux thought?

I'm lesbian because I listen to Indigo Girls.
I'm satanic because I listen to KISS.
I'm angry/suicidal because I listen to Smashing Pumpkins.
I self-medicate because I listen to The Doors.

sigh.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
I self-medicate because I listen to The Doors.


I thought the Doors' music WAS self medication!








(It always was for me, anyway ...)


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I was an emo/punk kid at 14, 15, 16, and also a cutter, because it felt good. The music, the shows, the scene, the community of weird punk kids, helped me feel better MUCH more than cutting, so I quit. I still like the music (I'm 23) and I married a fellow punk. Also, we're anarchists!







:
I can think of MUCH worse things my kids could do as teenagers than listen to emo-- if it's even around 10 years from now.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
HerthElde, thanks for your comment. I guess to explain myself, I believe all psychiatric symptoms have a cause and a context. I do a very thorough history with all of the clients in my program. I usually spend about 1 1/2 to 2 hours on this. It's all about putting the symptoms in their context; when did they onset? what was happening at that time? were there any significant changes? and so on. It's terrible to suddenly uncover some detail that was missed when you are six months into treatment, because it wastes everyone time, and the wrong treatment can cause someone to feel worse. Even in your case, there was a cause for your depression. I have heard of medical conditions or nutritional problems that can cause psychiatric symptoms, I'm glad you found your answer. For others, a possible cause for teen depression may be puberty itself, especially since there are a storm of hormones involved.

Sorry if I seem condescending. I really don't know who I'm talking to here. I don't know how much people on this board know about depression, therapy, and so on. More than likely there is a wide variety. I'm trying to explain a lot with as few words as possible. So if I'm over explaining things a bit, I apologize.









By the way, I agree with your earlier post about taking music away. that would create more problems than it would solve.

dnw826, I think I've stated in earlier posts that not all emos cut and not all cutters are emo. Myself, and many other professionals have seen a significant spike in suicide attempts and self injury. This corresponds in time with the increase in the emo fad. Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the cutters I see are self identifying emos. The CDC released earlier this month that the suicide rate for teen rose significantly in the last few years when the rates for other groups dropped. I can't think of much more to say on that.

What, exactly, are your qualifications?


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
What, exactly, are your qualifications?

I have a Master's Degree in Counseling. I'm certified by the National Board for Certified Counselors, I'm a Licensed Therapist in my state. I have 15 years of experience in therapy with children, adolescents and adults. I've worked in an outpatient clinic, partial hospitalization programs, and as a Behavioral Specialist. I'm currently a program director for a partial hospitalization program for adolescents.

For the other posters, WOW! I never expected to generate all the comments that I've been reading. I'm really surprised. I feel as if I'm continuously repeating myself, but here we go again.
1. Not all emo kids cut, not all kids that cut are emo!
2. Wearing black does NOT make you a menace to society! (I'M A FORMER METAL HEAD!!!)
3. There has been a spike in the number of suicide attempts and self injury that have been documented by reputable sources.
4. The aforementioned spikes occur at the same point in time as the increase in popularity of emo.
5. Ironically, or not, the emo music promotes the idea of cutting and suicide.

Also, on my website, I quote and link to research that was done on cutting. The two demographic groups that has the largest increases are teens and young adults. Who is the largest demographic that is in the emo fad???? TEENS!

Sorry, I'm tired an d somewhat sarcastic at this point. I can only present the evidence. I was really skeptical at first as well. When I researched this, my eyes were opened. I was seeing tons of behavior that was a rarity in the past. I looked for other causes. I came up lacking.

Look at the website. I left the link in an earlier post. If the numbers don't convince you, I doubt anything else will.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 

I'm lesbian because I listen to Indigo Girls.

Funny, I'm a lesbian in spite of the Indigo Girls.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

That said, never believe a North Dakota newscaster when it comes to music trends.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I have a Master's Degree in Counseling. I'm certified by the National Board for Certified Counselors, I'm a Licensed Therapist in my state. I have 15 years of experience in therapy with children, adolescents and adults. I've worked in an outpatient clinic, partial hospitalization programs, and as a Behavioral Specialist. I'm currently a program director for a partial hospitalization program for adolescents.

For the other posters, WOW! I never expected to generate all the comments that I've been reading. I'm really surprised. I feel as if I'm continuously repeating myself, but here we go again.
1. Not all emo kids cut, not all kids that cut are emo!
2. Wearing black does NOT make you a menace to society! (I'M A FORMER METAL HEAD!!!)
3. There has been a spike in the number of suicide attempts and self injury that have been documented by reputable sources.
4. The aforementioned spikes occur at the same point in time as the increase in popularity of emo.
5. Ironically, or not, the emo music promotes the idea of cutting and suicide.

Also, on my website, I quote and link to research that was done on cutting. The two demographic groups that has the largest increases are teens and young adults. Who is the largest demographic that is in the emo fad???? TEENS!

Sorry, I'm tired an d somewhat sarcastic at this point. I can only present the evidence. I was really skeptical at first as well. When I researched this, my eyes were opened. I was seeing tons of behavior that was a rarity in the past. I looked for other causes. I came up lacking.

Look at the website. I left the link in an earlier post. If the numbers don't convince you, I doubt anything else will.

From which institution did you receive your master's degree? I'm afraid I find your entire persona highly suspect - I have yet to encounter a professional therapist who creates websites in which he/she espouses expert knowledge on a subject, but refuses to provide his/her name or credentials. Your writing style does not particularly smack of "professionalism," to be quite honest - your repeated use of internet speak and "smileys" alone makes your claims dubious.

Saying "I have a masters" is, quite frankly, not good enough. If you're going to expect to be taken seriously as an expert on the subject, you're going to have to pony up more information to back up your alleged professional education and background.


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

Its a manner of self expression of angst and anger. Fuck mainstream.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Funny, I'm a lesbian in spite of the Indigo Girls.

















LOL!


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
From which institution did you receive your master's degree? I'm afraid I find your entire persona highly suspect - I have yet to encounter a professional therapist who creates websites in which he/she espouses expert knowledge on a subject, but refuses to provide his/her name or credentials. Your writing style does not particularly smack of "professionalism," to be quite honest - your repeated use of internet speak and "smileys" alone makes your claims dubious.

Saying "I have a masters" is, quite frankly, not good enough. If you're going to expect to be taken seriously as an expert on the subject, you're going to have to pony up more information to back up your alleged professional education and background.

I guess we're now playing a rousing game of "attack the messenger". Can't debate facts, just call the source into question! If you doubt me, do you doubt the researchers? Do you doubt the CDC? Even if you decide to throw out my observations from the career I've apparently been hallucinating about for the last 15 years, there is a wealth of information out there. That's why I changed my mind about emo. My website only scratched the surface. It was put together over the span of a week because parents asked for information.

As for me, I've shared enough personal information. My opinions are obviously upsetting to people. While I doubt anyone is this forum would harass me IRL, others might. I would spare my family ,and myself much aggravation. I guess you either have to take my word for it or leave it.

By the way, professional folks are allowed to use smileys!







:


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I guess we're now playing a rousing game of "attack the messenger". Can't debate facts, just call the source into question! If you doubt me, do you doubt the researchers? Do you doubt the CDC? Even if you decide to throw out my observations from the career I've apparently been hallucinating about for the last 15 years, there is a wealth of information out there. That's why I changed my mind about emo. My website only scratched the surface. It was put together over the span of a week because parents asked for information.

As for me, I've shared enough personal information. My opinions are obviously upsetting to people. While I doubt anyone is this forum would harass me IRL, others might. I would spare my family ,and myself much aggravation. I guess you either have to take my word for it or leave it.

By the way, professional folks are allowed to use smileys!







:

I haven't debated anything you've said or agreed with anything you've said -I've expressed skepticism at your so-called credentials (which you still have yet to provide). Feel free to start sourcing your claims with links to reputable organizations to back up your claims.

If you're not able to figure out how to continue posing as a professional therapist, I suggest dropping this particular persona.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
I haven't debated anything you've said or agreed with anything you've said -I've expressed skepticism at your so-called credentials (which you still have yet to provide). Feel free to start sourcing your claims with links to reputable organizations to back up your claims.

If you're not able to figure out how to continue posing as a professional therapist, I suggest dropping this particular persona.

This is my last attempt here. Here's some quotes and links

_The suicide rate climbed 18 percent from 2003 to 2004 for Americans under age 20, from 1,737 deaths to 1,985. Most suicides occurred in older teens, according to the data - the most current to date from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

By contrast, the suicide rate among 15- to 19-year-olds fell in previous years, from about 11 per 100,000 in 1990 to 7.3 per 100,000 in 2003.

Suicides were the only cause of death that increased for children through age 19 from 2003-04, according to a CDC report released Monday._

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16996417...?GT1=9033links.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the

United States

• Early 1980's - 400 per 100,000 in population (Pattison & Kahan, 1983)

• Late 1980's - 750 per 100,000 in population (Favazza, 1988)

• Late 1990's -1000 per 100,000 in population (Favazza,1998)

• Mid 2000's - An estimated 150,000 to 360,000 adolescents in the U.S. self-injure (National Association of Secondary School Principals, 2004). Also data from the 2003 Massachusetts YRBS indicated that 18% of high school students in Massachusetts reported having self-injured during the past year.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the United States

Groups in Which Self-Injury Was Commonly Reported (1960-1990)

• Outpatients with serious emotional disturbance or mental illness

• Persons representing at psychiatric emergency rooms

• Seriously and persistently mentally ill persons in day treatment or partial hospitalization programs.

• Seriously and persistently mentally ill adults living in community based residential or supported housing programs

• Patients in short and long-term psychiatric units

• Youth in special education schools or residential programs

• Prison inmates

Note: These groups, of course, are not mutually exclusive. For example, individuals can be discharged from hospitals or prisons and become clients in residential or outpatient settings, or vice versa.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the United States

New Groups in Which Self-Injury is Now Commonly

Occurring (1990's to Present)

• Youth in middle and high schools serving regular education students

• Young adults enrolled in colleges and universities

• Adults in the community at large

http://www.sprc.org/featured_resourc...scussion10.pdf

As for my "persona", I prefer to call it a career. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I'll happily debate anyone regarding facts and observations. If you wish to make accusations, do it on your own time.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Credentials? No?

This is actually _is_ my own time, by the way.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
This is my last attempt here. Here's some quotes and links

_The suicide rate climbed 18 percent from 2003 to 2004 for Americans under age 20, from 1,737 deaths to 1,985. Most suicides occurred in older teens, according to the data - the most current to date from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

By contrast, the suicide rate among 15- to 19-year-olds fell in previous years, from about 11 per 100,000 in 1990 to 7.3 per 100,000 in 2003.

Suicides were the only cause of death that increased for children through age 19 from 2003-04, according to a CDC report released Monday._

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16996417...?GT1=9033links.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the

United States

• Early 1980's - 400 per 100,000 in population (Pattison & Kahan, 1983)

• Late 1980's - 750 per 100,000 in population (Favazza, 1988)

• Late 1990's -1000 per 100,000 in population (Favazza,1998)

• Mid 2000's - An estimated 150,000 to 360,000 adolescents in the U.S. self-injure (National Association of Secondary School Principals, 2004). Also data from the 2003 Massachusetts YRBS indicated that 18% of high school students in Massachusetts reported having self-injured during the past year.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the United States

Groups in Which Self-Injury Was Commonly Reported (1960-1990)

• Outpatients with serious emotional disturbance or mental illness

• Persons representing at psychiatric emergency rooms

• Seriously and persistently mentally ill persons in day treatment or partial hospitalization programs.

• Seriously and persistently mentally ill adults living in community based residential or supported housing programs

• Patients in short and long-term psychiatric units

• Youth in special education schools or residential programs

• Prison inmates

Note: These groups, of course, are not mutually exclusive. For example, individuals can be discharged from hospitals or prisons and become clients in residential or outpatient settings, or vice versa.

The Increased Prevalence of Self-Injury in the United States

New Groups in Which Self-Injury is Now Commonly

Occurring (1990's to Present)

• Youth in middle and high schools serving regular education students

• Young adults enrolled in colleges and universities

• Adults in the community at large

http://www.sprc.org/featured_resourc...scussion10.pdf

As for my "persona", I prefer to call it a career. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I'll happily debate anyone regarding facts and observations. If you wish to make accusations, do it on your own time.

And by the way, neither of these sources mention "emo" music as a cause of self-injury. In fact, the first link (an MSNBC article? Don't you have access to professional journals?) posits the theory that school budget cuts resulting in the loss of suicide prevention programs might be a factor. Neither of these links backs up any claim linking emo music and self-injury or suicide.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
As a former all black wearing metal head...

You've mentioned a couple of times that you used to be a metalhead. As another, I have to ask what you thought/think Judas Priest being put on trial because two of their fans blamed their suicide attempt on Priest's music?

Quote:

The one thing that you leave out is the music that portrays cutting and suicide as an acceptable solution to problems.
This is part of the argument that was made about Beyond the Realms of Death...that Priest was promoting suicide as a way to deal with life's problems.

Sorry - I don't buy it. Kids who aren't already depressed and suicidal don't suddenly think, "oh - this band says that suicide makes sense because the world is an awful place - think I'll kill myself".


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:

It's so weird to me how emo has morphed into what it is today. To me, it's bookish college indie rockers who wear 70's style velcro running shoes, tight jeans and tight vintage t-shirts with black horn rimmed glasses. The boys were sensitive and sang songs about complicated relationships with girls and literary themes...there was none of this despair and goth influence. Now I see kids calling themselves emo and it's not about the music at all anymore - just a look.
Yep.

Remember when emo was a verb, and not a noun? When kids that listened to emo were "emo kids" and not "emos"? I mean, yeah they rocked the thrift store style, and the messy hair, and the buddy holly frames... but wasn't it just about how huge and obscure your record collection was? Whether or not you had the limited edition colored vinyl first press seven inch?? Or how many names you dropped?









The emo scene of today doesn't resemble the emo (or indie rock, if you don't want to sound like a jerk) scene of yesteryear AT ALL. It used to be so honest and intelligent and intentionally non commercial... None of the look how depressed i am exhibitionism. The emo of today looks more like goth went metrosexual.

On a serious note... I wouldn't take those videos too literally. I remember when I was straightedge, and there were all these articles and news bulletins about the scary straightedge gang. My ex's dad was a police officer and there was a video out on how to recognize a "straightedger"... I can't remember what it said exactly, but I do remember laughing at how generalized and innacurate it was. I would have been insulted if my parents assumed I was part of some violent gang because they saw some sensational news story on tv.


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## Therapist Guy (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
You've mentioned a couple of times that you used to be a metalhead. As another, I have to ask what you thought/think Judas Priest being put on trial because two of their fans blamed their suicide attempt on Priest's music?

This is part of the argument that was made about Beyond the Realms of Death...that Priest was promoting suicide as a way to deal with life's problems.

Sorry - I don't buy it. Kids who aren't already depressed and suicidal don't suddenly think, "oh - this band says that suicide makes sense because the world is an awful place - think I'll kill myself".

I thought the whole Priest situation was rather contrived. I never was a fan of theirs, and I don't believe that I really have ever heard the song in question. If memory serves, the claim was also about backwards masking. Frankly, if that was the case, the subliminal message crowd was pretty much debunked long before that anyway.

Ironically, I have better memory of Ozzy's song "Suicide Solution". At that time, I read that the song was actually about musicians that had died due to drinking, Particularly Bonn Scott of AC/DC. I remember having to go over the lyrics with my parents. Once they actually heard it, they were OK with it. Ironically, these same parents of mine loved the "Osbourne's" in MTV.

The major difference between the metal scene of the 80's and the emo scene of now is that metal was, in my opinion. "angry music for angry white kids." Emo is more introspective, which isn't entirely bad, but instead of directing anger outward, as metal did, emo directs anger inward. As much as I hate quoting Freud, he did say that depression is anger directed inwards.

Regarding the kids that are not already depressed; I think that there are some that go along with the culture to "fit in." I've also seen kids that have a sudden change in their personality and outlook once they get into that scene. I guess that we all did that to some extent. Again, the alarming thing to me is that there are documented increases in self injury and suicide. I wish some University out there would have already done some serious research into this. There is some underway, but I don't know how much emo is covered in the design.

In the end, we cannot predict what every kid will do, nor can we paint all kids with the same broad brush. I, and many others that work with kids have seen similar trends when it comes to self injury and suicide. All I'm trying to say is that when you take all of these events, put them in a time line, it certainly seems linked in some way. It's not every kid, thank God, but it's enough to concern me and many others.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
do you doubt the researchers? Do you doubt the CDC?









You're new here, aren't you.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Not only do we doubt the researchers and the CDC, but we've made careers out of researching ourselves who fund these types of "studies", who they were meant to benefit, how much of the study was "political agenda", how the study was skewed by media, if they even follow the rules of good science and how exactly "professionals" such as yourself can make such a huge, unfounded jump from suicide statistics (from MSN no less??) to emo.

Welcome to MDC...land of the misfits.









(Thanks meetup group for that name!! I'll only borrow it this once!)


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

As for suicide rates in teens?

When I was in school, I knew three kids who died. All from car accidents. Two involved underage drinking and driving.

Today? I lost my daughter 4.5 years ago to suicide. I personally know 5 teens who have taken their own lives since my daughter's death. I know three times that many who have attempted.

I work with bereaved parents. It run's about 50/50 for type of loss. Suicide vs. illness, accident, homocide etc.

I lost one child to suicide (bipolar disorder may be to blame). I am parenting three other children with bipolar and all three have made suicide attempts.

Suicide rates are increasing, younger and younger cgildren are attempting and succeeding. I know of 11 and 12 year olds who have attempted and or been successful.

Doubt CDC studies all you want but talk to your teens. I bet they all know of at least a few kids who have attempted or succeeded.

Talk to your kids, be aware of their struggles and concerns. Be open about suicidal feelings and thoughts. Come up with a plan of action in case those feelings surface.

It's not just the emo kids who are attempting. It's the band players (rip tuba), it's the religious kids (thank you for making it Adam), it's the stoner kids (thankful you are still here James), it's the bookish, poetry/music writing kids, (rip Walton) it's the computer geeks (rip Gage) it's the ones with the CNA's at age 16 (amazed and thankful for your miracle Chlow), it's the abuse survivors (rip Marrissa). It's all kids from all walks of life.

Don't pin it on one group or trend. All our children are at risk. Even the so called "good kids"


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spero* 







You're new here, aren't you.

I have to disagree. The CDC's word is ABSOLUTE!








:







:


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
As for suicide rates in teens?

Don't pin it on one group or trend. All our children are at risk. Even the so called "good kids"

No. I'm not doubting that suicides in teens have risen. I doubt the fact that a "therapist" would qoute stats from MSNBC and not a professional journal.

My point was exactly that! EMO does not equal suicide. Disturbed children=disturbed behaviour. He was using this statement from MSNBC (regarding suicide stats from CDC) to support several of his postings stating that EMO=cutting/suicide. Of course, he didn't bother to link to the actual study for statistics which was my point.

I apologize if I wasn't clear on those points.


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## beachmouse (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm willing to accept the CDC statistics accurate in the sense that they've used good math to compile what has been reported to them by people in the meidcal field.

The problem comes from the data that's getting reported to and by the first line medical professionals. Would a therapist have been looking for the signs of cutting or outward physical self-harm in 1971? In 1981? In 1991? How many teenager deaths during that time frame might have been suicides, but were classified as something else for the comfort of the family? (there could be reasons behind accidental drug overdoses and car accidents that were missed or overlooked)

Then step back and look at self-destructive teenage behavior as a whole. There was far more teenage drug use from 1967-1982 (picking a nice 15 year time frame) than there is today. Heck, I went to high school in the late 1980s, and even then was a much tamer time than it was in the early 80s based on stories of my classmates' older brothers and sisters.

The teenage years are rough for a lot of kids. Have always been during the modern era. And part of the way many teens choose to deal with it is by behaving in self-destructive mannors. The key is to know your kids and kids' friends well enough to pick up on when they're hurting even when they're all smiles, rainbows, and good SAT scores on the outside.


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stinkerbell* 
I will go even further to say that I spend a LOT of time in the schools here and for the most part, the EMO kids are the ones who are socially advanced, socially aware, socially responsible, question their responsibility to the earth and it's inhabitants and have less true drama going on in their lives. really.


I have to agree with this 100%


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

I have been listening to punk music for over 20 years & I really like some of the emo stuff thats out right now, btw I am 34, I hope my kid (hes 8) can be as open minded & insightful as some of these 'emo' kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I was an emo/punk kid at 14, 15, 16, and also a cutter, because it felt good. The music, the shows, the scene, the community of weird punk kids, helped me feel better MUCH more than cutting, so I quit. I still like the music (I'm 23) and I married a fellow punk. Also, we're anarchists!







:
I can think of MUCH worse things my kids could do as teenagers than listen to emo-- if it's even around 10 years from now.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh puh-leaze..... An "emo" kid is no more likely to cut themself than a "preppy" kid.


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## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

Not to venture too far from the original post







: or anything, but emo music is not really comparable to punk. Punk was about being angry and wanting change and emo is more about whining about the way things are. (this has been verified by my teens, who btw, are not emo)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therapist Guy* 
I thought the whole Priest situation was rather contrived. I never was a fan of theirs, and I don't believe that I really have ever heard the song in question. If memory serves, the claim was also about backwards masking. Frankly, if that was the case, the subliminal message crowd was pretty much debunked long before that anyway.

The song was said to be pro-suicide. One of the boys lived through the suicide attempt, and he claimed that listening to the song drove them to it. They listened to it and just didn't see the point in living, anymore...so they tried to blow their brains out. Oddly enough, I've listened to the same song probably 100 times, and it never made me want to blow my brains out, despite the fact that I already had a tendency to want to do so.

Quote:

The major difference between the metal scene of the 80's and the emo scene of now is that metal was, in my opinion. "angry music for angry white kids." Emo is more introspective, which isn't entirely bad, but instead of directing anger outward, as metal did, emo directs anger inward. As much as I hate quoting Freud, he did say that depression is anger directed inwards.
I was angry all around - inward and outward. Metal was my way of dealing with all of it...the rage and the depression. I also think it's simplistic to say that metal directed anger outward - there was a lot of introspective, inward-focussed metal on the market...maybe not as much as the "you can't hold us down" variety, but it was there. I still listen to it.

Quote:

Regarding the kids that are not already depressed; I think that there are some that go along with the culture to "fit in." I've also seen kids that have a sudden change in their personality and outlook once they get into that scene. I guess that we all did that to some extent. Again, the alarming thing to me is that there are documented increases in self injury and suicide. I wish some University out there would have already done some serious research into this.
Any answer we try to find is going to be simplistic, because these issues are complicated. That said...

My oldest son is 14. I've watched him and his friends over the years. These kids are totally peer-oriented. I know a kid who is sent out to buy himself Subway 2 or 3 nights a week, and doesn't eat with his family. I know a boy whose parents have the "2 alternating weeks" custody arrangement...his rules are totally different from one home to the other, and his parents are very occupied with tearing each other down. I know another boy who is grounded for _everything_ (didn't finish his lunch, forgot his homework, was "lippy") by his stepmom - his dad doesn't agree with her, so he just lets the kid off when his wife isn't around, but wont discuss it with her. I know another kid who spent New Year's Eve with us last year, because his mom wanted to go to the bar for their New Year's bash. The ones who are home with their families have next to no responsibilities _and_ next to no supervision. There are 9/10 year olds in my townhouse complex who have a 10:30 curfew on weekends and summer days. Some of them go home for lunch, and get handed money to buy potato chips and a pop at the corner store.

These kids have no attachment, no stability, no _baseline_. Everything in their lives is dependent on their friends, not their parents. They're taking _all_ their cues (social, ethical - you name it) from their peers. I think in many cases their parents are trying to recreate the "hang out with your friends" vibe from their own childhoods (I certainly have fond memories of hanging out in the neighbourhood and playing hide-and-seek, jacks, etc., etc.). But, they're overlooking that their kids have no anchor. They try to assert authority by saying "you're grounded"...but then the kid just goes to his/her room and doesn't interact with the family. It's not up to my son's friends to teach him and guide him through life. I think we, as a culture, are overlooking this in a big way. Mind you, half the adults I know seem to take their cues on what's appropriate from the TV, so the problem is happening on a lot of levels. We live in a very shallow, superficial society in many ways and not everybody can deal with that. From my limited exposure to emo music, I think it's often an attempt to find something deeper in life.

Quote:

I, and many others that work with kids have seen similar trends when it comes to self injury and suicide. All I'm trying to say is that when you take all of these events, put them in a time line, it certainly seems linked in some way. It's not every kid, thank God, but it's enough to concern me and many others.
Okay - maybe emo and depression are linked. But, as I've said before, correlation does not equal causation. I found metal because I needed it to help me cope with my depression. Maybe emo is doing the same thing? You can't say "these kids were fine until they found emo", because you don't know the specific timeline in each kid's case. I do know that a lot of my outward stuff (specifically wardrobe and makeup) didn't manifest until _after_ I found metal. I'm sure there were people who thought that my anger and depression was created by "that music". I'm sure if I'd gone into therapy, there's a good chance the therapist would have seen a link - and probably reversed it. But, the metal didn't make me depressed. It didn't make me want to die. It was a coping method. It was the _one_ place I could go where I felt like someone actually understood that life sucked, and that being me sucked. Iron Maiden and Judas Priest weren't telling me that if I just adjusted my attitude and tried harder, things would be okay. They weren't telling me that all that mattered was my grades, or that I was "wasting myself" by not living my life according to someone else's idea of what should be important to me. They were my safe haven - the only one I had. It used to make me furious when people blamed my issues on the one thing that was getting me through...let's not make the same mistake again...


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
Not to venture too far from the original post







: or anything, but emo music is not really comparable to punk. Punk was about being angry and wanting change and emo is more about whining about the way things are. (this has been verified by my teens, who btw, are not emo)










(also not wanting to move off the original topic, but)

Today's emo is the end of a long evolution with a history that does start with it's roots in punk music.
Emo music is not new, it's not something that grew out of the late 90's. It gained popularity in the late
90's, but it's been out there a long time. Emo grew out of the punk genre, it's believed the term emo
was coined by members of the hardcore punk band Fugazi. If you do any research on the singer Ian
Mackaye you'll find he is very involved and vocal with many issues, including anti-war and civil rights.

Being "emotional" doesn't always equate whining. Many times if you listen the emotion it's coming from
a place of wanting to change the world around them. I've heard just as many whiny punk songs as I've
heard whiny emo songs.


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## DebraStorm (Aug 18, 2004)

Very interesting topic! Thank you!


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:

...it's believed the term emo
was coined by members of the hardcore punk band Fugazi.
Actually, Ian McKay (of Fugazi) coined the term "straightedge". The word "emo" was a not so nice thing to call the kids that listened to the music. The hardcore scene, sadly, was and is rife with tough guys who would rather mosh about being tough than hear about someone else's emotional struggles. The kids who listened to the stuff didn't actually call themselves emo, once upon a time.

This is funny... http://www.stylusmagazine.com/stypod/archives/533


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