# we cried it out and it so worked, tell me what you think...



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

so
yes my dd (14 months) is teething like crazy, going through a lot of transition in her development, and we just returned back home after a month of traveling to see family (with out daddy)
BUT
for over a week my child was sleeping less and less at night and during the day
sometimes just crying at night and sometimes just up wanting to play and talk etc.
i tried everything
EVERYTHING
several nights i even let her do what she wanted: fall asleep when she was ready: 1 AM, wake up whenever 3AM and do what ever, playdolls with ehr, eat snacks in the high chair, whatever....this was in the middle of the week. i thought maybe i should let her play it out as she wanted and not try to interfere with her desires....
but it got to the point of her being up from midnight to 5 am and taking a 20 min nap during the day
that is sleeping 8-12 midnight and then 5-6 am and 20 minutes in the afternoon
WHAT THE F?
it was killing me
killiing
me
i felt like i was going to loose my sanity
i have to mention that my husband does not really help parent (he works 2 jobs andgoes to school at night) so he is not here, we have no family in this town
in otherwords ihad no help
no escape
no sleep
anyway
so i finally set up the portacrib i got from my mom before dd was born (never used it before...i am AP) and i told her what i was doing and why
put her in there and left the room
she cried and screamed my name
she puked she was so hysterical
but she did this for like 10 minutes and fell asleep (this was at 5 AM)
i was heart broken and relieved
i felt grateful and like a failure
anyway
the next night, i tried rocking, singing, homeopathics etc, for an hour and ahalf
and she was throwing an anti-sleep fit the whole time
crying when i held her and trying to breake free/////then crying when she was on the floor and reaching for me.
so
i told her what i was going to do and why and went to get the porta crib.
when i returned she was screaming and crying
no no no
and climbing all over me like she was trying to escape something
but i continued to set it up and change her shirt (she had puked all over it....no stomach problems...just cried so hard she threw up)
and then she went to the rocking chair and said "yes yes yes..good night"
i said
"ok,one more chance. i will rock you. but if you do not go right to sleep, i will put you in the crib and leave the roomand you can sleep by yourself and i will go sleep in our bed because you and i are very tired and we have to go to sleep."

my child went to sleep with in 1 min
and 6 hours later (the longest stretch of asleep time in 8 days) when she woke up to nurse (YES we co sleep) she tried to get up and play...as she had done everynight that week and i said "it is still night time, lay back down and go to sleep with mommy or i will put you in the crib"
she layed back down and went right to sleep!
i was amazed!
AMAZED
now please tell me what you think about all of this.
i am such a nurturing loving hold your baby momma.
but i could not take another day with out sleep
and she could not either
and it seemed like each night she was sleeping less and less
it was like she was pushing a boundary and i layed down the law and she responded beautifuly
today was GREAT
she was so much happier
and i think tomorrow will be even better
i mean, sleep makes for happier people
and tonight
as i rocked her i reminded her about how important it was to go to sleep at bedtime or else she would have to sleep by herself
she went right to sleep and whe she woke up an hour later and tried to talk/play i cuddled her up in bed and asked her to go back to sleep or else: crib. and she shut her eyes and went to sleep!
this is after over a week of me fighting her every night to fall asleep and stay asleep.
she was like the energizer bunny (i practically had her running laps during the day to tire her out)
and she has been on a "self designed" sleep schedule since brith pretty much of naps and bed time with me rocking then nursing
no problems
i was once against EVER crying it out
then when this started i kept on resisting it
because it felt wrong and abusive to me
i kept on thinking "what if she is hurting in some way? if i let her CIO, then i would be punishing her for her being in discomfort...she won't trust me agian, that is not respecting and nurturing her etc."
then i couldn't function as a person/mother anymore and i had to do it
and it worked great
i still don't know what to think
or if what i did/am doing (by "threatening" her with it) is wrong/abusive/out of line with gentle dicipline.
i wanted to get on here and ask for help during the past week of sleepless hell.
but ALAS there was no time nor energy for such.
so please tell me what you think
help me grow as a dedicated moma
thanks and
GOOD NIGHT!!!


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

OK, I hear how desperate and concerned you are, so I am really really really going to try to be kind in my reply.

What you did may indeed have "worked" in the short run.. in that your babe exhausted herself with her hysteria and despair, and went to sleep.

However, I think you will be sacrificing a great deal of your precious bond with your child if you continue to "threaten" her into sleeping by using that crib and sleeping alone as a threat/punishment for not sleeping.

I think she is so so so young to have to go through such fear and hysteria that she throws up on herself. And I think you are setting her up for some seriously awful associations with sleep.

Yes, you can get her to sleep that way.
But at what long-term cost to her emotional well being and your bond?

I am sorry, but I can't tell you this is okay.
I understand your desperation and exhaustion, I do.
But it is NORMAL for babies to go through phases like that.
And I think you should check out Elizabeth Pantley and Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. William Sears and ask the mamas here for some gentle alternatives.

Because I think you may have cause to seriously regret this later.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

That really makes me sad. For your little one _and_ for you. You need help, we aren't really meant to do this alone. I know, as someone who has no family to call on in times of need. Lack of sleep with my second child actually made me feel psychotic. Our bodies need sleep obviously, and judgement is seriously compromised when we don't get it. Still, you are the adult. Your baby has no clue how to make herself go to sleep when she's not tired (or over-tired!). You should definately get one of the books the pp mentioned. Yes, CIO "works" but at what cost? Trust is essential. CIO breaks that trust. It's not worth it. I hope you can get some sleep soon. Can hubby take a little time off from work/school to help you all get through this?


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

Your post made me very sad. I agree that you need help. It is very very hard to have to deal with sleep issues on your own I know because I don't have any help in the middle of the night and very little help form dh at any other time. I live over an hour away from all of my family so there is no help from them either. I in no way agree with CIO. When I was a small child all I ever wanted was to sleep with my mom and all she wanted at night was to put me in my room and close the door to have time to herself. I remember crying night after night for my mom and she would come in there and lay with me until I fell asleep but I would wake up shortly after and she would be gone and it would start all over again. My mom would threaten me that she would close the door and leave me in there and ignore me if I would not go to sleep. I really did try to sleep but sometimes I just couldn't. I hated bedtime for years. I spent most of my childhood sleeping in the living room on the couch because I felt "safer" there. When we moved to a new house my freshman year in HS I finally started sleeping in my own room but I always had a bedside lamp on. I finally started sleeping without a light around senior year. I still don't know what I was afraid of, it was just this really intense fear and to think of it now it still makes me very sad that my mom didn't respond to me in a different way. I hope that things get better for you and your dd!!
Amy























I just want to clarify that I am in NO WAY comparing the OP to my mom. I am just saying how the way that my mom responded to me when I was small affected me for a very long time!!


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## sarahwebb (Feb 12, 2002)

I'll be the voice of dissent here. I don't think what you did was so unreasonable. Your daughter is not a newborn; she is old enough to understand what you did and you explained it to her. It sounds like she was desperate for you to stop her from her destructive sleep patterns and you did. There may be better ways, but I don't think it's terrible to let an older baby cry alone for a little while when they can't find a way to control themselves. You gave her a choice--settle down with you or cry alone. Once she complied, you brought her back into the family bed. I don't think this is unreasonable.

I think what you did is very different from letting a newborn, young baby or even older child cry for nights on end because they desperately want to be with you. You gave your daugther the option of being with you if she would calm down.

Big hugs to you. I believe that if you deal with your child in a loving way, she will be ok even if you sometimes let her cry. I hope you and your daughter are doing well now and back into a healthy routine.

Sarah


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

It sounds like a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures". Sometimes we have to quickly make a list of our priorities and decide what to do based on that, dealing with our imminent needs first, and trusting ourselves, all the while dealing with a screaming, throwing-up child and serious sleep deprivation! Ahhhh Motherhood.







Don't beat yourself up. You and your child needed to break the spell. Maybe now it's time to stop using the crib as a threat. I mean, should your child one day _want_ to sleep alone, you don't want her to think that she is wanting to punish herself.







Also, it's important to avoid this becoming a power struggle. Maybe talk to her now about how much better the both of you feel after actually getting a decent sleep. Focus on the positive. I find that often when we make issues out of things, our kids pick up on that and find issues where none would have been.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't know which is more distressing. The situation you described, or the two posts here that didn't think it was a big deal.

It sounded like a very big deal to your child.

What can anyone say to you? If a parent snaps and spanks their child or leaves them to cry until they throw up...isn't it obviously the wrong choice?

I'm amazed anyone here would say to you that it wasn't a big deal, especially since you don't seem to realize it was a big deal. If you did, you wouldn't have come here to ask us whether or not it sounded like you made the wrong choice.

If you really want advise. Apologize to your child for those nights, and commit yourself to doing things differently next time. Everyone makes mistakes. Read all you can, and develop a routine that is respectful. Do not ever let her CIO again.


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## ldsapmom (Apr 8, 2002)

Another strange dissenter here, as well.

I love AP -- it is what works for me and my family. I also trust everyone else to know their child better then I know thier child, so ultimately, I trust others to parent their own children the best way they can. ANd by that I mean doing what YOU need to do so YOU are the best parent you can be. If that means at the end of your rope letting you child CIO, so be it. The OP obviously felt that was what was best for her family on that particular night.

I would never tell a mama her parenting decision was not right, barring it was not abusive. Had this mama said she was so tired and so drained she spanked her child or screamed at her child, or locked her child in a closet, yes, I might say something. But she simply let her CIO. Not exactly a crime punishible by law.

Have I ever done it? No. Because until this point I have not gotten to the point of feeling like I needed to.

I hear a lot of people say APers are high ad mighty, holier-than-thou-types, and indeed I see that in som eof my closest friends. I have an especially good friend who feels like if anyone parents any other way they are doing it wrong. I get so hurt by her close-mindedness and elitest attitude towards others -- she cannot trust parents to make the right decisions regarding their own families.

Of course you see that in all parenting styles, but I wish more APers would back off a bit and let other AP the way that works for them -- there are no hard and fast rules, and I am sure even the best of us have things we do as parents we are not proud of. I don't like the judgement.

OP, someone mentioned the No-Cry-Sleep Solution, that is a good one, as is Dr. Paul Fliess' Sweet Dreams and Dr. Jay Gordon's Good Nights. And the Sears' stand by Nighttime Parenting.

What I would have been tempted to do was remain sleeping in bed with the lights off and let my child figure out I was not going to entertain the sleeplessness -- more times than not my boy finally comes to bed to nurse and then falls asleep. But you know your child.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I would never tell a mama her parenting decision was not right, barring it was not abusive. Had this mama said she was so tired and so drained she spanked her child or screamed at her child, or locked her child in a closet, yes, I might say something. But she simply let her CIO. Not exactly a crime punishible by law.

I am baffled by this. "Simply let her CIO". Even by CIO standards her description was upsetting. Crying to the point of vomiting?

Well, you say you "might" have said something if she spanked, screamed at, or locked her child in the closet. That is a relief.

I don't see how anyone is seriously supporting this here. It is family bed forum. The OP doesn't really seem sure that what she did was a bad idea. From the replies, I am starting to see why she might be confused!!


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Wow.
I really never thought I'd see this on MDC... support for letting a baby cry to the point of vomiting.

Poor baby. The thought of it makes ME want to cry.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

My son once cried to the point of vommitting. He had lice and we had to do something to get rid of it. He was at a stage where he would not let me wash his hair ever. I would have to do it once in a while of course anyway. It would take about 60 seconds (because I had to work fast







) and it would end with him crying and freaking out with water pouring down his face and me soaked from head to toe. Anyway...the lice. How was I ever going to use any type of treatement? Forget the chemical poisons of course. My only choice was to take him to the hospital and have him put under general anasthetic (I'm not kidding, my doctor at the time suggested it) or shave his head.







Iopted for option 2. Long story short, a lollipop and a new trainset (out and out bribery), did nothing to calm my child. We eventually had to basically pin him down and come at him with the shaver. He cried and vommitted but we got rid of the lice. Desperate times....


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
Maybe talk to her now about how much better the both of you feel after actually getting a decent sleep.

A barely 1yo? Talk about getting a good night's sleep? This is a _baby_!

I put a fairly "moderate" post on the other thread BTW.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)




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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Mamajama, I agree that some situations you must do what your child finds intolerable. There are things I have also needed to do (like brush teeth







) for my children that required that I physically restrain a screaming child and do something against their will. It is my responsibility at times to overule their preferences decisively.

But your analogy is _very_ different from the situation with the OP. I'm not sure what the point of it is. Are there _ever_ deperate times that call for desperate measures? Of course. But which ones and in which situations?


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## ldsapmom (Apr 8, 2002)

I do not feel I am supporting the CIO, but I am supporting this mom's ability to make her own decision regarding her family.

I have to say a while back I heard Dr. Phil telling a mom she needed to make her child CIO. He said she would get upset, she would vomit, she would try everything in the book to get out of the situation. I was appallled. The thought of a child becoming so disturbed she would vomit was abhorrant to me. But hearing on national TV it is common in these situations, I guess after reading OP's post, I feel maybe it is not such an unusual thing.

I just think as parents we need to allow others to do what they feel is right for their families. Why shouldn't this be posted here? It is a Nighttime Parenting Forum, after all.

Please understand I hate CIO -- I have never done it (and just tonight I hid 6 copies of Babywise behind Spiritual Midwifery at my local B&N). As I write this my three year old son is asleep in our family bed 3 feet behind me. I just feel we should give parents the space to work through their issues and parent according to the dictates of their own conscience.

ETA: Perhaps the OP just threw this out to see how we would scurry about, who knows? Maybe I get too tolerant in these situations?


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

Original poster, I understand how crazy you can get from a lack of sleep. And how hard it is to be a de facto single parent.

But you fouled up in letting your baby get so scared that she threw up.

The good news is that she will forgive you. Kids forgive their moms just about anything. I speak from experience here. My husband is military and has been away for over a third of our daughter's life. I have definitely screwed up and taken wrong turns in parenting -- particularly when he is gone and I am so tired I wish I was dead. I have to force myself to swallow my pride, apologize to my daughter and let her know that what I did was wrong and what I think I should do next time. Even if they don't know what we're talking about, it helps to verbalize what we're going through.

You were traveling for over a month and you expected her to adjust immediately? That's a pretty big expectation for a baby, which is what a 14mo is. You probably compounded her problems by letting the sleep situation get so out of control before doing a drastic reverse of courses on her. It take time to adjust sleep schedules.

I think you really need to get some kind of helper. Whether you utilize a mother's helper a few hours a week or trade babysitting with a friend or enroll her in a mother's day out program, take a little break from her. You're going to get burned out and your parenting skills will go down the drain and you will not enjoy your daughter.

I hope tonight you can find a gentle solution for her.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

The point is to take some of the pressure and guilt off Moma Justice's shoulders. I felt guilty and relieved and horrible after having to do that to my son.(the lice thing....see above). I feel for her. In her post she mentions all the things she tried. It sounds to me that she was very gentle in all her approaches. She was feeling absolutely desperate about her situation and heartsick as well. Her mental and probably physical health was at risk as was her daughter's. I also feel that it is never too early to begin explaining things to a baby in the form of positive dialogue. It is a good habit to start and also helps the mama focus on the positive. A 14 month-old baby really does understand a lot of what we say. If we start telling them that sleep is "good" and "nice" and makes us feel happy and cozy, that can only help to make sleep a welcomed experience. OK, it's not like my kids say "YAY it's bedtime!" but at least it's not a fight.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Idsapmom, I apologize for using the word rant etc. It was inaccurate and I overreacted to that overall. It didn't seem to relate to the OP very clearly, but it wasn't that "bad"

momajustice _will_ do what she thinks is right--good, but she's not fully comfortable and _is_ seeking advice on an AP forum. She's not really defending CIO and saying "this really is good and I believe it's definitely right I dare you to disagree." I wouldn't have been involved in the conversation, then.

(I'm gonna edit)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
It sounds to me that she was very gentle in all her approaches.

It sounds like she was gentle at the beginning, yes, but totally random. Her baby didn't know what to expect. One night mama's up playing with her the next - surprise - alone in her crib, crying until she puked.

Quote:

I also feel that it is never too early to begin explaining things to a baby in the form of positive dialogue. It is a good habit to start and also helps the mama focus on the positive. A 14 month-old baby really does understand a lot of what we say. If we start telling them that sleep is "good" and "nice" and makes us feel happy and cozy, that can only help to make sleep a welcomed experience.
I agree, to an extent. Expecting a 14-month-old baby to make connections between sleep and her future well-being is over the top, though. (Making connections between being cozy and going to sleep is maybe a little more developmentally appropriate). But, in any case, that wasn't what was done. Instead, the baby was left to cry, puke, and subsequently threatened when she didn't immediately acquiesce to bedtime later.

There's nothing okay about that.

Yes, sleep deprivation sucks. Been there - seriously. But there are many other options than letting your child cry until he/she pukes.

And ldsapmom - Simply because something is "common" or "not unusual" doesn't make it right or good. There are many things that are common in our society that I seriously hope my child does not do.

I feel sorry for momajustice, definitely. But I feel sorrier for her baby. And I don't feel any need to take the guilt from her shoulders. It's important to feel guilt sometimes if it encourages you to relook your behavior. One of the things that infuriates me about this place lately is the unrelenting acceptanace that's given to all sorts of abysmal actions in the name of "support" (not to mention that "shaming" of the mamas who call it like they see it). One can be supportive of a person without affirming their actions. And any action that leaves a child harmed is not a good parenting decision. It just isn't. And it deserves to be addressed.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Poor baby







I bet she is awefully confused right now. Put the crib away, stop using it as a threat.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

My baby is 14mts old, and FIRST OF ALL, I cannot FATHOM sitting with him and explaining that he needs a 'good night sleep'. He's a BABY. He does not understand.
He trusts me, and I cannot break that trust. And CIO, is wrong wrong wrong. That baby puked!!! UGH. NOT RIGHT>
I cannot advocate, I"m sorry you're tired, but there's gotta be other means. Find a support group, find someone you can do a coop with, so that YOU can get sleep. Tell your dh to TAKE A DAY OFF WORK and LET YOU SLEEP. But do NOT expect a 14 mth old to have the capability to reason.
I'm sending you strength, and sleep, but do not continue this practice, please!!!!


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Moma Justice

i feel bad for you and your babe that you felt pushed into a corner by desperation. I hope you are feeling more rested and able to make the choices that you would prefer to make.

I feel that some have been hard on you without being in your shoes at that moment. We can all say that we would do different but parenting is a learning journey. At all points of crisis there are at least two paths; one which is a quick fix and may not be good in the long run and another which is more difficult and requires time, patience and perseverance.

From what you say I sense that you are not competely happy about what you did; if you were you wouldn't be asking about it here. If you consider this experience of letting your little one cry it out and think about how it made you feel, you can store this for future reference. If you take advice from others and think about how you could do it differently, the the next time you feel desperate you will have more tools and more paths to choose.

More importantly, you need to plan to avoid the crisis point. Her normal habits had been thrown to the wind which resulted in the crisis you describe, what could you do another time to ease her back into a ahppy rhythm so as to avoid desperation?

Show your daughter that you love her - even (especially) at bed time.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I don't know if anyone here has ever been pushed to a point where they are terrified - PETRIFIED - that they are going to hurt their own child.

Maybe MonaJustice didn't let it go that far. Maybe it would have never gone that far. Maybe it DID go that far but she's reluctant to express it here (I can understand why!). Which would have been worse?

Because as a mom with bipolar disorder, I can tell you that if it WOULDN'T have been for my dh, I am afraid of where myself and my children may have ended up if I stuck to my AP ideals so rigidly that I literally drove myself mad.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

ETA: I would never "espouse" CIO in any way, shape or form, here at MDC or at any other parenting site. I think it's terribly sad... however, ten minutes of crying isn't as bad as those parents who let their babies scream all night every night for weeks on end just to "teach them" how to sleep. There is a big difference, IMO.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Candiland~She let her baby cry to the point of vomiting. THat is bad.
And like you said, your husband helped you. She is not a single parent, she has a partner. That resource should be explored, before expecting a 14 mth...not going to finish.
And I'm sorry if I'm not being overly supportive. It just makes my blood boil that anyone here would condone this sort of....'solution'.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I haven't been there, so I try not to judge. However, I really really urge you to read everyone elses suggestions and take them to heart. It dosen't sound like CIO really helped, just was a short term solution to what may now be a long term problem.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

OH MY GOD. I cannot believe that MDC mamas are saying that CIO is ok. You know something, I would stay awake for days (and have) before letting my child cry so hard that he throws up on himself. Then, there is the terror that your baby now feels towards a crib and the knowledge that mama will leave her alone. That UNHEALTHY both physically and mentally. That poor, poor baby. Mama, I agree with the other posters. FIND HELP. From any resource. Your husband isn't going to fail his course if he misses one night. He is a parent too. I understand that it is hard to work two jobs. I understand that because my dh did it too. I will say though that it is no excuse for not noticing that you are to the point that you got to. He needs to pay closer attention too.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I am so sorry you (and especially) your daughter are having such a hard time









As for what I think about the CIO, (you asked) I think it's just awful that you let her vomit not once but TWICE!!! I also feel like your post is a list of excuses justifying it. :


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

But the problem is, she can't MAKE her DH pay more attention. She can't MAKE him help, or do his share of parenting.

So maybe we need to offer her other suggestions that will help her, and her baby sleep better.

I have to run my kids to an activity, but I'll be back later to contribute.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I think it is more then likely someone trolling.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

but she didn't ask for suggestions, she asked what we thought of CIO.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Welcome to the new MDC


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

I don't think she the OP is a troll, though I don't think she'll be back either.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

It seems to me that the OP is looking for support for her decision. That is just something that I cannot give. It hurts me to imagine this little baby, this trusting little soul, who has done nothing wrong, crying - no, screaming - alone until she pukes. How is that teaching her good sleeping habits? All that is teaching her is that when the chips are WAY down, mama is gonna close me up in a room all by myself to figure it out alone. I find that very, very sad.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Justice2*
Welcome to the new MDC









I second this!!

This thread and the mamas that say it was okay- I wish you would stop posting on this board, this is for AP and NFL- not for mothers that let their children cry so hard they puke! That is disgusting to think that you would put yourself in the mist of a loving AP parent.

First off in the first 3 line of your post you said that your DD was teething (PAINFUL HELLO!) and that she was having development changes (HELLO) and that you just returned form a month away from your house (SO SHE IS IN TRANSITION) So, you lock her in a crib and walk out of the room to the point where she pukes- this is a loving way to parent an obviously needy child. Then when you bring out the crib the next night she freaks, pleading with you to not put her in it and leave her hurting body and what do you do- stick her in it tell her you are going in to your nice warm bed- where mind you, it is the only place she knows as her bed too- and then you shut the door, but not before she pukes again as she is pleading with you. Hummmm.... Now, I understand being tired and at your wits end, I have a 18 month old and am pregnant again, and I have no family here either, but I would never- never put my DD in a place that made her so scared, lonely and helpless as for her to puke- never.

You had other options and you picked the most harmful one to your DD- sure "she slept for 6 hours" but what did you teach her? That you will not come to her needs when she needs you- that her pain is not important, that feeling a bit frantic about being gone for a month and now back at her home is not important, that her developmental changes are not important and that her needs will not be met? I think you need to get yourself into some parenting classes and get a grip on what you have done- This is not the place to say "I let her CIO and it worked- so there!" If you want that support go to a mainstream board and post your pathetic little story there.

I hope you get a grip on your parenting style and realize that this is your baby, she knows nothing but you, and when you shut a door on her you are telling her that her feeling do not matter, that her pain doesn't matter and you have selective love for her- children need to feel unconditional love form their parents- work on it lady!

And again Welcome to the new MDC- very well said Justice2


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I think letting your DD cry for 10 minutes would not be so bad- were it not for the fact that she got so upset that she threw up. THAT is inexcusable. Your daughter's father needs to help you more, even if he is working 2 jobs- YOU are working a 24-7 job.

I feel bad for your baby, & I feel bad for you. I hope she continues to sleep well without being threatened with being left alone in the crib.

Good luck to you, Mama.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Your approach kind of went to extremes, mama, that's just my opinion and I'm only giving it because you seemed to ask for opinions.

Why didn't you try other, less extreme things first before going straight to letting your baby scream and cry and throw up on herself?

Some suggestions I have.... I know a lady whose baby doesn't sleep well... she babyproofed the whole bedroom, and they sleep on a mattress on the floor. When baby gets up and wants to play, she plays dead and eventually the baby will go back to sleep too. Much more gentle for baby and mama!

Also, I do not recommend playing with your baby at night when she wakes up. She is awake because her teeth hurt, not because she really wants to play. At least, that is what I have figured out from my own DS. They want you to find ways to help them get back to sleep. So I keep things dark and calm, and try nursing and giving a bottle (we have to supplement with formula) with water to help him get back to sleep. I also play dead and that sometimes works.

I'm not sure why you went from one extreme (letting baby stay up as long as she wanted without discouraging her) to the other (indefinite CIO and then repeated threats of CIO) so quickly. But, if you do want opinions, mine is that you have a lot of other things you can try before resorting to those measures.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

This whole thread is making me sick.







I kept reading in another thread that there were posts like this with moms actually advocating and supporting thigs like CIO. I hadn't really seen them and now I have. This is so disturbing.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I agree, HBM, I was also living in my little MDC bubble. Sadly, it has now burst.


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## Amberlyn (Aug 5, 2004)

Everyone here is focused on the "letting the baby cry till she puked"... My DD will puke if she cries over dinner, if you tickles her too long, if she gets the hiccups. She can work herself into such hysterics in a matter of 45 seconds she will puke. So what your saying, is that is bad parenting? A mother (pretty much single) comes here for advice and support, and dang near everyone here tells her how awful she is. She came here for ADVICE on what to do in the future, not for you to tell her what she already did wrong. She already said she felt horrid for what she did. She came here for a shoulder to lean on, not to be ridiculed and pushed away. Tell me none of you have ever made mistakes with any of your children. Maybe you all should have been a little more gentle with her.. after all she is only... as everyone else here is.. human.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

This thread and the mamas that say it was okay- I wish you would stop posting on this board, this is for AP and NFL- not for mothers that let their children cry so hard they puke! That is disgusting to think that you would put yourself in the mist of a loving AP parent.
Actually, I'm probably more AP and NFL than the majority of mommas on this board









I am not espousing CIO. I do recognize, however, that one can be pushed so far over the edge that it's the last solution before complete insanity. (Read: child abuse, going to a mental institution.... I think 10 min. of CIO are better than getting locked away. Call me crazy.







)

She said her husband is of no help because he works two jobs and goes to school at night.

This is not a place to say "Hey, have you tried CIO?" This is not the place to recommend CIO and tell someone that it may be a solution. I recognize that this is an AP site. However, the attitudes of some of you toward this momma go beyond judgmental. I'm shocked that so much venom could come from the fingers of "gentle AP mommas".


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Candiland~Someone posted two very real, gentle, possibilities. I understand she was/is acting on no sleep. But maybe she can post asking for suggestions, prior to trying CIO? There are always possibilities, there are many creative minds here. That is what I love about Mothering. I can think, "Oh, I've tried EVERYTHING', then post here, and lo and behold, I'll be given more things to try.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

well I reallly hope she did not leave. I mean she did ask what we thought? I hope she reads this and changes her mind about it.

please rethink this mama!!!









personally I don't agree with NOT letting baby play at night.(disclaimer-not saying someone else discouraging it is wrong) but sometimes my ds is just NOT tired and is clearly wide awake. he doesn't know he should be asleep and he is a good napper during the day. so how is that his fault? I always get up with him and we play and that in truth is the quickest way to get him back to sleep if he tires himself out a little. I guess my whole thing is if he's not tired why do I want to make him think he is? Haven't you ever woken up in the night and gotten up cause you couldn't sleep?

at the very worst and I'm just way too tired to play myself I have gone to sleep on his playroom floor with our pillow and blankets while he plays a bit around me. (the room is totally babyproofed) when he's tired he'll come snuggle up.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

candiland- she is using it consistantly night after night though not as a last resort deal.

my tune would totally change if this was a one time thing where mama had to put baby down in fear of hurting the dc. well then call someone and get the help you need! the way she posted clearly shows she is using it in a threatening manner! dragging it out while the dc crawl up and tried to get away from it her in terror is mental abuse in my mind especially with a babe so small. I'm sorry if you do'nt agree.

bedtime should not be scary!!!!!!


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## Amberlyn (Aug 5, 2004)

Now if your baby is totally NOT tired, and you don't mind getting up and letting them play.. have at it..







But her baby was deffinatly NOT getting enough sleep to function.. producing tired cranky baby during the day. I really think her baby got on a "lack of sleep schedule", and needed help getting back on track. She did ask what we thought, but I think if someone doesnt agree they shouldn't imply she is a bad mother. They should just say "I dont agree.. this is what I might have tried..." I realize that sometimes these issues bring back bad memories, or are something we feel very strongly about. But those times we need to stop, breath and try to word our thoughts carefully.








I know that MDC is full of wonderfully brilliant, patient, loving mothers. Otherwise I wouldnt be here.
I do hope that the OP is still around and can take from this, any ideas, suggestions, or support she can find through out the posts.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

so i finally set up the portacrib i got from my mom before dd was born (never used it before...i am AP) and i told her what i was doing and why
put her in there and left the room
she cried and screamed my name
she puked she was so hysterical
She had 8 days to come here and ask for help. 8 DAYS to say "I am having serious sleep issues, can anyone give me suggestions on how to solve them?" Did she do this? NO...she did the above instead. WHY, WHY, WHY let it get to this point?

Quote:

i told her what i was going to do and why and went to get the porta crib.
when i returned she was screaming and crying
no no no
and climbing all over me like she was trying to escape something
but i continued to set it up and change her shirt (she had puked all over it....no stomach problems...just cried so hard she threw up)
and then she went to the rocking chair and said "yes yes yes..good night"
So now this baby is terrified into submission? Does MDC now promote a "do it or else" attitude? The mama says that she tried things for over an hour. How many of us mamas have had babies that wouldn't go to sleep? My son when through a phase (and he wasn't even experiencing half of what this little girl did, i.e. teething and vacation, ect.) where he didn't want to sleep for over a week. I think it is a pretty common phase for a toddler to go through. So now, should the mamas at MDC advocate CIO in extreme cases? There were nights that I would have sat down and cried for 5 hours of sleep.

Quote:

i said "it is still night time, lay back down and go to sleep with mommy or i will put you in the crib"
When has it ever been ok on MDC to threaten our babies....SHE IS A BABY.

Quote:

and it seemed like each night she was sleeping less and less
it was like she was pushing a boundary and i layed down the law and she responded beautifuly
Does this sound like a principle of Attachment Parenting?

Quote:

i kept on thinking "what if she is hurting in some way? if i let her CIO, then i would be punishing her for her being in discomfort...
In the first line of her OP, she states that her baby is TEETHING...not that that is a painful thing for a baby to experience.

Quote:

so please tell me what you think
I don't think that you can do these things, can treat your child with such LITTLE respect, and still call yourself an Attachment Parent...how many of this baby's needs were met?


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## drifter (Aug 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
(Read: child abuse, going to a mental institution.... I think 10 min. of CIO are better than getting locked away. Call me crazy.







)(


Actually this is not limited to 10 minutes. She said that when she goes to bed and then again at night whe the baby wakes that she threatens the baby with the crib and them same feelings of being left return.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberlyn*
She did ask what we thought, but I think if someone doesnt agree they shouldn't imply she is a bad mother

She did not really come here looking for advice - she came here to tell us how well it worked. look at the subject of her post. it is a statement not a question.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
However, the attitudes of some of you toward this momma go beyond judgmental. I'm shocked that so much venom could come from the fingers of "gentle AP mommas".

I think it is about time some of the "gentle" mommas say things. The problem is that they normally say nothing and so when people come to this board advocating, they are heard and they run the board over. The way our world works is who ever cries the loudest wins.

Scott- a very AP daddy!


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## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Justice2*
It seems to me that the OP is looking for support for her decision. That is just something that I cannot give. It hurts me to imagine this little baby, this trusting little soul, who has done nothing wrong, crying - no, screaming - alone until she pukes. How is that teaching her good sleeping habits? All that is teaching her is that when the chips are WAY down, mama is gonna close me up in a room all by myself to figure it out alone. I find that very, very sad.

Well put--I think I agree that it was "desperate measures," as someone else said, but I think maybe I would have put the child in a crib in my room instead of shutting her in her own while she was hurting and scared from teething. Or, maybe just napped with her when she napped. I'm not sure what to do when you feel psychotic from not sleeping, though--hasn't happened to me. The thing is, I was made to CIO when I was a child, wanting Mom in the middle of the night just because, and she'd only come if I had a good reason. One time she had to come in because i kept crying, and she got MAD at me for distubring the household!!!







I had a lot of nightmares about my parents when I was a child though, and I wonder if feeling scolded often, especially around sleep time, was responsible? I also have a lingering fear of the dark. It might "train" children to sleep, but does it train them to hate sleep time? It might.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I am closing this thread for the time being. I will reopen it after consulting with other moderators about the best way to handle this discussion.

Now, think about what you want to post before you type it out. Keep in mind this thread is about CIO, not a chance to rag on MDC or the members here. Also keep in mind the MDC user agreement and web statement of purpose. Now, I mean it, click those links and read them. If you don't understand anything in them, ask a moderator!


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Threads like this are always difficult. But MDC is here to help members practice, advocate and support AP and NFL. It is also a place where those who are parenting in ways that are not AP can come to seek out alternatives and understand why their ways are not in the best interest of their child or respectful of them as individuals.

Quote:

but I wish more APers would back off a bit and let other AP the way that works for them...

I just think as parents we need to allow others to do what they feel is right for their families.
That's a fine wish for some things. But when a parent brings an issue to the members here and presents a non-AP practice such as CIO as a solution it is not unreasonable for MDC members to take issue with that, for the sake of the child and for all those who may be reading, experiencing the same problems and perhaps considering CIO themselves. It is not our purpose here to validate such practices or to even accept them as an appropriate choice of a parent. I can only assume that the parent who brings the issue here for discussion is seeking advice. If not then this is clearly the wrong community to expect validation of such an action.

CIO is not an AP practice. So to suggest that it be acceptable as an approach to nighttime parenting for a parent who decides it is "right" for their family is not really what Mothering or MDC is about.

I think this thread can stay closed. If the OP wishes to clarify her intent in starting the thread and is asking for help in not continuing with CIO then I will consider reopening it as well as the other thread in GD that she posted.

Peace mamas.


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