# Need help getting DH on board with avoiding Disney and licensed characters



## CrunchyMama74 (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi Mamas,

It is a priority for me that my DD not be exposed to Disney, elmo etc. and my dh doesn't seem to understand where I am coming from. I've explained how I feel like licensed characters in general stunt creative play, how I detest all the cross marketing, but he doesn't really seem to get it. He was raised on Disney. Does anyone else have experience with this? Are there any websites that are helpful? TIA!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I can't think of a better place to start than here:

http://www.commercialfreechildhood.org/

Then there are the books, "Consuming Kids" and "Born to Buy"

The argument that "I was raised on [fill in the blank, from eating meat or sugary cereals, to attending public school, to watching TV or enjoying Disney] so it must be OK" is a false argument, because SO MUCH HAS CHANGED since then!! The advertising deregulation in the 1980's, the mergers that have led to the giant conglomerates, the cross-marketing between industries, the licensing crap, the obesity epidemic and the role of fast food/movie/crappy toy tie-in, the sudden surge in high fructose corn syrup, food additives that harm health & change kids' behavior, the commercialization of schools, the explosion of vaccines that modern kids have to get at the same time, earlier in their lives, the ADHD & autism & cancer rises.... bla bla bla......these issues all sound unrelated but what these things all have in common is that things that our kids are facing are NOT the same as when we grew up and we can't let people just dismiss our concerns with that one simplistic throw-away comment.

I'd say more but it's after midnight and I need to go to bed. That web site will give you a lot of info in the Resources section (articles)

Good luck! I'm with ya!


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## graceshappymum (May 11, 2006)

I would seriously recommend "Cinderella ate my Daughter". It is a wonderful book and might open your DH eyes to the insidious marketing that is especially pointed at girls.

Good luck!


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I think Reclaiming Childhood is another book with info about how it changes play for the worse.

That said we avoided for the first three years or so and then just kids clothes at the park had taught dd all the characters, or books at the library I couldnt always steer dd away from, and we have watched some PBS kids on sick days and very select Disney movies now on movie nights. But we still have rules about not wearing them etc and it's balanced nicely and dd is so creative. Even with mil totally sabotaging our efforts by sneaking every lousy PBS cartoon to dd while supposedly having dd over to spend time and also buying every plastic junky tinkerbell toy lol. They stay at Grandma's house and dd plays tink at home by actually building machines out of craft supplies and blocks and such. And we finally got through to mil about the excessive tv So even if dh exposes her to some all is not lost. But I think it should be up to each set of parents how much to allow bc just willy nilly tends to be really limiting.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

How old is your DD, OP? Honestly and gently, why do you have to convince him of anything? Can you imagine if he got a book to convince you that your beliefs regarding Disney/marketing were wrong and parents who don't allow characters are depriving their children? Seriously. Why can't you both win? Maybe no character items until a certain age and then not go overboard with it? You can't come up with a compromise that works for you both?

You detest marketing but he doesn't. As parents, I think it's important to come up with a fair compromise when we have disagreements about how or what we want our children exposed to. DH and I don't always agree on parenting styles or what or when we want our DD exposed to this or that but just as much as I'm our daughters mother, he's our daughters father.

I used to think he bought her too much Dora related stuff but our DD is his kid too and if it makes her father happy to buy her a Dora coloring book I think it's unfair to gripe about it. My point is, you are both the parents and can come up with a compromise that suits you both while still respecting the other persons feelings and beliefs.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> How old is your DD, OP? Honestly and gently, why do you have to convince him of anything? Can you imagine if he got a book to convince you that your beliefs regarding Disney/marketing were wrong and parents who don't allow characters are depriving their children? Seriously. Why can't you both win? Maybe no character items until a certain age and then not go overboard with it? You can't come up with a compromise that works for you both?
> 
> ...


Yes, I think you need to think of both points through thoroughly. Although I'm sure you don't mean it this way, you are telling him, in essence, the stuff he loved as a child is terrible. If he has fond memories of it, he will be thinking of this stuff emotionally.

By all means, point out the marketing aspect of it. I'd also point out to him that a lot of Disney stuff for kids is poorly made and expensive. A bad combination. Their clothes tend to have a lot of synthetic fibers and the few things we were given made my dd hot and itchy. But there are a lot of differences you're going to have as parents, how much does this mean to you?

You might be able to find a position of moderation. Maybe no clothes. Or no Disney movies until age X. My kids have been exposed to a little Disney, but we don't watch the movies. Dd got a princess coloring book/sticker book and read a few of the Tinkerbell chapter books. She was not entranced by them. So a little exposure to Disney has not stifled her creativity or imagination. She doesn't want Disney or Barbie stuff. They're boring.

And at the risk of contradicting myself, you might also think about making your campaign broader. I object to my children (or to me) wearing shirts that advertise for companies. I try not to buy Gap and Old Navy, for example, especially when their logos are prominently displayed. If they want me to advertise for them, they can pay me. Your dh might have an easier time seeing the point if it's not just Disney focused.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Yes, I think you need to think of both points through thoroughly. Although I'm sure you don't mean it this way, you are telling him, in essence, the stuff he loved as a child is terrible. If he has fond memories of it, he will be thinking of this stuff emotionally.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this..

I guess I fall into the middle ground because I am so not a huge fan of the "princess" aspect of disney but I totally love some of their movies, at the moment DD is watching Finding Nemo and it is her favorite...We also are big fans of sesame street in this house.

We only allow a few movies, Nemo, Ratatouille, all 3 toy stories and then sesame street...DH is comfortable with this and so am I...Originally I was super militant about no commercialization of our precious child and then I realized that I would be making a bigger deal out of the whole thing than if we just were very very picky about what we allowed her to be exposed to...No clothes etc that are disney disney disney (although she has an elmo lovey that she adores) and no cartoons of any kind on TV...In fact we don't like the TV for her at all, except for Sesame...The commercials are SO OBNOXIOUS....So we would prefer if it is the end of the day and she wants to watch a movie while I nurse her before bed we allow it, we can control it and no commercials..

If I were your DH, I would be feeling pretty hurt that as the PPs said you basically said his childhood was WRONG WRONG WRONG...I don't see how he would be very receptive to you when it is coming from that angle...You are both the parents, he has the right to say he disagrees with you. It isn't a matter of who can win over the other person, gotta find that middle ground. For us we found it and I am confident DD is not going to be destroyed by watching the few movies we let her and seeing sesame street. A show whose messages are along the lines of, sharing is good, outdoors are wonderful, being kind is a good thing, eating veggies is good too! How can I argue with that.










Now Dora, well ,if Dora ever so much as shows her stupid little head in this house I am going to give her the boot real quickly...I cannot stand that kind of stuff...no princesses, no cartoon tv shows and NO DORA!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I agree with the pp's who say you should consider your dh'd point of view. I've btdt with my dh and you know what? They have a really good time with all their commercial Disney characters. My dh grew up with lots of tv etc...and we have talked about it and he sayd that if we barr our kids from the things he grew up with, it is like saying he had a crap childhood. And he swears up and down that he turned out just fine







. I'd like to think that even though both dh and I grew up with Disney, we are free thinking adults, whose lives have been shaped by more than Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse. That being said, Dora and Diego are not welcome in our house hahaha...but only because they are super annoying. Thank goodness my ds never developed a liking for them!!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

It was stated that "if we bar our kids from the things he [DH] grew up with, it is like saying he had a crap childhood."

The point is that he DIDN'T grow up with what the kids today have to face. There's a small similarity in that the name "Disney" is attached to it, but to assume that it's the same situation now as when we grew up is, I believe, to be potentially naive. Unless you guys are real young and perhaps all the de-regulation and all that really HAD already taken place by the time he watched it. But I know that I (I'm 51, with an 8-yr old son) grew up with a Disney experience that was 180 degrees opposite what Disney is now. When I grew up, the name Disney meant creative, quality programming. We watched it every Sunday night and have fond memories of that more innocent time. It's a different world.

I hope you will take a look at the articles on that page that I referred to up above. Here it is again:

http://www.commercialfreechildhood.org/articles/home.htm


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> I agree with the pp's who say you should consider your dh'd point of view. I've btdt with my dh and you know what? They have a really good time with all their commercial Disney characters. My dh grew up with lots of tv etc...and we have talked about it and he sayd that if we barr our kids from the things he grew up with, it is like saying he had a crap childhood. And he swears up and down that he turned out just fine
> 
> ...


Ugh Diego too!! So annoying...I feel bad for those parents forced to suffer through those shows, and all that stuff that come along with it..

I just think it really isn't that hard to allow a little bit and moderate closely. How hard is it to say, hey this movie is OK but that doesn't mean you can go all crazy and have disney princess themed crapola all over the house. I know that anti-tv anti-disney sentiments are really popular on MDC, I guess that is how I am "less crunchy" in that I am confident in my ability to be picky with what aspects DD gets to be exposed to in regard to Disney stuff...

OP, I guess I don't understand why it is YOUR WAY or the highway? Why can't you reach a middle ground with your DH? I know some people think that being exposed to 1 second of a disney movie will forever maim their child (ok slight exaggeration but not really) but that really isn't true. It could be a special thing for your DH and LO to share, special movie night with daddy or something...


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrunchyMama74*
> 
> Hi Mamas,
> 
> It is a priority for me that my DD not be exposed to Disney, elmo etc. and my dh doesn't seem to understand where I am coming from. I've explained how I feel like licensed characters in general stunt creative play, how I detest all the cross marketing, but he doesn't really seem to get it. He was raised on Disney. Does anyone else have experience with this? Are there any websites that are helpful? TIA!


It's not that he "doesn't get it", it's that he does not agree with you. As the other posters have said, find common ground rather than trying to force your DH into submission to your ideals. Dismissing his opinions as "not getting it" is totally disrespectful.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> The point is that he DIDN'T grow up with what the kids today have to face.


This is so true. I am with you OP. When Reagan allowed deregulation of children's television he opened the door to a veritable onslaught of advertising and brand name merchandising to be directly aimed at our kids. And the chief offender is Disney.

They are not interested in entertaining our children-they are interested in tattooing a Mickey Mouse logo/bar code on every child's body. Now, I know that is a bit Orwellian, but they are out there to teach children to become mass consumers of brand name merchandise. And I won't stand for it and I won't allow my son to be exposed to mass marketing he has neither the capability to understand, nor the resistance to refuse the allure.

When your husband was a young boy, Disney enterntained him-they didn't instruct him to nag his parents to drive him to the mall to buy MIC plastic crap. They didn't put Mickey on everything from underwear to sippy cups. They didn't do tie ins with appalling fast food restaurants. They didn't have Disney stores selling poorly made and super expensive clothing. They didn't make Movie I, II, III, IV, etc.

And this extends to almost all children's programming on Nick as well-we do not watch Nick here. TV is closely regulated.

It is impossible to avoid entirely, especially if like me you have a child in daycare. But, I can ensure it stays at daycare, and does not ever cross our threshold.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> It was stated that "if we bar our kids from the things he [DH] grew up with, it is like saying he had a crap childhood."
> 
> The point is that he DIDN'T grow up with what the kids today have to face. There's a small similarity in that the name "Disney" is attached to it, but to assume that it's the same situation now as when we grew up is, I believe, to be potentially naive. Unless you guys are real young and perhaps all the de-regulation and all that really HAD already taken place by the time he watched it. But I know that I (I'm 51, with an 8-yr old son) grew up with a Disney experience that was 180 degrees opposite what Disney is now. When I grew up, the name Disney meant creative, quality programming. We watched it every Sunday night and have fond memories of that more innocent time. It's a different world.


Um, I'm 30. I was born in 1980, so yes by the time I was watching much, it was after de-regulation. I think a significant number of mothers here with infants and toddlers were raised after that time. You are actually older than *my* mother. Granted, she was young (18) when I was born, but maybe that helps put your comments about everyone's childhood into some type of perspective.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom*
> 
> Um, I'm 30. I was born in 1980, so yes by the time I was watching much, it was after de-regulation. I think a significant number of mothers here with infants and toddlers were raised after that time. You are actually older than *my* mother. Granted, she was young (18) when I was born, but maybe that helps put your comments about everyone's childhood into some type of perspective.


agreed, born in 86 here...

i just googled the whole reagan deregulation thing because I had never heard of it


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> This is so true. I am with you OP. When Reagan allowed deregulation of children's television he opened the door to a veritable onslaught of advertising and brand name merchandising to be directly aimed at our kids. And the chief offender is Disney.
> 
> They are not interested in entertaining our children-they are interested in tattooing a Mickey Mouse logo/bar code on every child's body. Now, I know that is a bit Orwellian, but they are out there to teach children to become mass consumers of brand name merchandise. And I won't stand for it and I won't allow my son to be exposed to mass marketing he has neither the capability to understand, nor the resistance to refuse the allure.
> ...


(disclaimer- my son justwrote a book report on DIsney)

Actually Walt Disney wrote the book on marketing to children. He took small cartoons and based on their success he made the first feature length cartoon (Snow White). It made so much money he bought 100's of acres to build his studio. He parlayed that in the original Mickey Mouse Club and soon after started selling all kinds of product tied to both to the show and the movies. But even before that Mickey Mouse themed products were creating marketing gold for Walt.

http://www.pophistorydig.com/?tag=mickey-mouse

Quote:


> By 1935 Mickey Mouse and his friends had become a merchandising phenomenon. No less a cheerleader than the New York Times chronicled Mickey and Disney's rising "multiplier role" in an otherwise bleak national economy. "New applause is heard for Mickey Mouse. . .", wrote H.L. Robbins in the New York Times Magazine of March 1935."The fresh cheering is for Mickey the Big Business Man, the world's super-salesman. He finds work for jobless folk. He lifts corporations out of bank- ruptcy&#8230;"
> - The New York Times
> March 1935 "The fresh cheering is for Mickey the Big Business Man, the world's super-salesman. He finds work for jobless folk. He lifts corporations out of bankruptcy. Wherever he scampers, here or overseas, the sun of prosperity breaks through the clouds."
> 
> Indeed, through the 1930s, Mickey Mouse merchandising exploded; hundreds of products were available across the country and around the world. *There were Mickey Mouse phonographs and radios; Mickey Mouse wrist-watches, satchels and briefcases. There was also Mickey Mouse soap, candy, playing-cards, hairbrushes, chinaware, alarm clocks, hot-water bottles, table covers and napkins, Mickey Mouse biscuits and dairy, Mickey Mouse book-ends, and of course, Mickey Mouse music.* At least four publishers were then selling Mickey Mouse books, one of which in1934 had sold 2.4 million copies. Mickey Mouse pencils, paper, school notebooks, and tablets were sold by the million as well. *Food-product companies "hired" Mickey to sell breakfast cereal and also used Madison Avenue advertising to tout their new friend.* In England there was Mickey Mouse marmalade. New York's Fifth Avenue sold Mickey Mouse charms and bracelets, some in gold and platinum, and a few with diamonds. A Cartier diamond bracelet sold for $1,200. Some department stores used Mickey Mouse window displays, which could cost $25,000 for a single display. *By 1934, Mickey merchandise was earning about $600,000 a year.*


My mother remembered clearly begging for minnie mouse watch when she was young girl, my sister would have killed for the luggage.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Deregulation happened in 1984, but it took some time to really build up steam. Dismissing it's impact on today's children because you grew up with it to misses the point.

Children today aren't any more prepared to deal with the onslaught then we were (and it wasn't even that bad yet). Secondly, the sheer number of available channels dwarfs what was available to me in the '80's. Finally, the advertisements don't stop at TV-they are on billboards, on computers, at school, playgrounds, airports, and doctor's offices.

There is simply no comparision when I was growing up to what is happening today to our children.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Ugh. I had no idea it was that *insidious* even back then. I mean I remember Mickey Mouse ears and such but that is about it.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Deregulation happened in 1984, but it took some time to really build up steam. Dismissing it's impact on today's children because you grew up with it to misses the point.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> The point is that he DIDN'T grow up with what the kids today have to face.


I agree that the marketing is much more insidious today than it was when I was a kid (another pre-deregulation mom here). However, I think that it is possible for parents to regulate this stuff. Regulating is different from banning. For the OP, since her husband has very fond memories of Disney, I think that's a more realistic approach.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> I agree that the marketing is much more insidious today than it was when I was a kid (another pre-deregulation mom here). However, I think that it is possible for parents to regulate this stuff. Regulating is different from banning. For the OP, since her husband has very fond memories of Disney, I think that's a more realistic approach.


ok thank you! I feel like I am the only one who thinks it is possible to REGULATE yourself what your kid is exposed to. I get that Disney is this all encompassing company that wants to destroy our children by marketing everything they will ever use in their life....BUT there are some really cool things that Disney does, like I don't know...make awesome movies periodically...

I think there is a huge difference between letting your kid watch hours of cartoons (with all the horrible ads) on Saturday mornings and letting a LO and daddy watch a movie once in a while...

It's like because Disney tries so hard to market to kids we can't let them enjoy anything that Disney has to offer? Or is it because people are so against the company in general that the kids aren't allowed to experience it at all?

I was fully immersed in all things Disney as a child and I feel like I turned into a pretty rational free-thinking mama. I am by far the most "out there" member of my own huge family and I was probably the most immersed in TV and all things Disney.

OP I guess the bottom line is how much of a fight is it worth to you? I think you have totally disregarded your DH in the fact that he is also the PARENT....My DH hates when I make unilateral decisions about anything to do with DD....I get that you think it is super damaging to your kid to watch some Disney (or any tv or something, I feel like the 2 are getting intermingled) but you know what, it just isn't. There is a lot of hyperbole going on here. Your DH has every right as a parent to your child to say, " You know what honey, I disagree, I don't think watching a Disney movie is going to be horrible because I know we as parents can regulate and just NOT BUY all the crap that comes along with the Disney movies."

I am missing the part where just because you watch some Disney it means you have to run out and buy every single thing that Disney markets.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> It was stated that "if we bar our kids from the things he [DH] grew up with, it is like saying he had a crap childhood."
> 
> ...


 We have introduced our kids to things we like and things that we want to share with them. I don't think my kids are exposed to any more than I was. I'm 32 by the way. In fact, because we don't watch tv (because of commercials and because most of it is complete mindless drivel) and live simply in a remote area my kids have seen far fewer commercials than I did during my childhood. We are Canadian too, if that makes any difference. Just because I don't censor licensed characters doesn't mean I am naive. Around here it is all about regulating and compromise. Meh, this isn't a hill I want to die on. We all do what is best for our families. Just don't presume to know what my life is all about because I buy my kid Toy Story sippy cups. I'm actually kinda crunchy .


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> We have introduced our kids to things we like and things that we want to share with them. I don't think my kids are exposed to any more than I was. I'm 32 by the way. In fact, because we don't watch tv and live simply in a remote area my kids have seen far fewer commercials than I did during my childhood. Just because I don't censor licensed characters doesn't mean I am naive. Around here it is all about regulating and compromise. Meh, this isn't a hill I want to die on. We all do what is best for our families. Just don't presume to know what my life is all about because I buy my kid Toy Story sippy cups. I'm actually kinda crunchy .


I agree.

NellieKatz, many, if not most, MDC mamas are probably aware of sites like commercialfreechildhood -- it's a frequent topic of discussion here, and this is a pretty informed group of parents. It's possible to be aware of the counter-argument and still choose to allow the occasional Disney character into our homes. Having a difference of opinion doesn't mean that we need to be "educated" or swayed in the "right" direction, it just means that we feel differently about the topic than you do.

Regarding the general issue, I'm in the middle. We enjoy several Disney movies, and we'll buy certain things with characters on them -- mostly consumables like notepads, stickers and the like. I don't like to buy more permanent things like t-shirts or backpacks with characters on them, or with any big logo/slogan on them (as someone upthread mentioned about The Gap and Old Navy). My kids' regulation/moderation comes from me and DH.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

reading through I do not see that anyone has said, and I am not trying to be antagonizing, that if you do not make it a big deal, it will not be one. My example to further explain is; I do not ban. Exposure is allowed and beleived in, in order for child led choices. We watch TV, and have a planned trip to DL, our first. However, we have never bought clothing with characters, and DD is not into princesses, even after watching snow white, cinderella, and others. It is not a big part of our lives. We do not talk about it a lot, and it has not become us.

To me, banning begets trouble, as an example, when a family banned sugar from thier kids in school when I was growing up, the older boy, taught the younger girl to steal sugar from other kids lunch boxes, and there was a fighting incident.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> reading through I do not see that anyone has said, and I am not trying to be antagonizing, that if you do not make it a big deal, it will not be one


But to some of us it is a big deal.

Quote:


> Exposure is allowed and beleived in, in order for child led choices.


It is almost impossible for a child to be led anywhere other than down the rabbit hole so to speak. When we allow commerical TV like Disney, they are bombarded with pitches and products. That is not child led. That is advertiser led.

When my son is older and better able to process advertising and money and mass consumerism we will re-evaluate our stance. But for now, for our family, my dh and I feel very strongly that keeping Disney and the like out of our house is the right way to go.


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## 4myfinn (Dec 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laila2*
> 
> reading through I do not see that anyone has said, and I am not trying to be antagonizing, that if you do not make it a big deal, it will not be one. My example to further explain is; I do not ban. Exposure is allowed and beleived in, in order for child led choices. We watch TV, and have a planned trip to DL, our first. However, we have never bought clothing with characters, and DD is not into princesses, even after watching snow white, cinderella, and others. It is not a big part of our lives. We do not talk about it a lot, and it has not become us.
> 
> To me, banning begets trouble, as an example, when a family banned sugar from thier kids in school when I was growing up, the older boy, taught the younger girl to steal sugar from other kids lunch boxes, and there was a fighting incident.


I was thinking the exact same thing. Our next door neighbor growing up, Brittany, used to pay me for Kool-Aid when we were kids. My mom didn't buy many sugary treats- usually if we had sweets they were homemade- but she did buy Kool-Aid, and because Kool-Aid was absolutely forbidden in Brittany's house, she ALWAYS wanted it and would do anything to get it.

DH and I are definitely sensitive to childhood commercialization. We don't buy Disney clothes or toys, and we don't have TV, but we let DS watch some Disney movies. This morning he watched part of Stuart Little while I cleaned. He loves that little mouse.

OP- I understand if you don't want your child to have any Disney exposure, but if your DP thinks it's harmless, then a compromise is in order.


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## mama2004 (Nov 14, 2007)

I would tend to agree that compromise is probably the best approach here, as your dh's feelings are just as valid as yours, OP. One thing, though, that I think is missing from this conversation is the fact that your dh's feelings could be taken as an example of successful marketing. Disney banks on "creating" memories of their products, and on parents remembering or feeling nostalgia for their childhood experiences and seeking to recreate those memories for their children. Right or wrong, I think that's how it goes. There are specific things from my childhood that I have chosen/am trying to do differently; I am in a unique position to do that (know better, do better kind of stuff), and it seems to me that is equally valid.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *annalivia*
> 
> I would tend to agree that compromise is probably the best approach here, as your dh's feelings are just as valid as yours, OP. One thing, though, that I think is missing from this conversation is the fact that your dh's feelings could be taken as an example of successful marketing. Disney banks on "creating" memories of their products, and on parents remembering or feeling nostalgia for their childhood experiences and seeking to recreate those memories for their children. Right or wrong, I think that's how it goes. There are specific things from my childhood that I have chosen/am trying to do differently; I am in a unique position to do that (know better, do better kind of stuff), and it seems to me that is equally valid.


I get what you're saying, but that means anything a child remembers fondly, unless it was purely natural (eg. the hikes in the woods with my mom, sister and dog) is an example of successful marketing. Does that mean we have to avoid all those things with our children, because they were marketed? I have good memories of "Pirate Paks" (the kids meal at a local restaurant, which comes in a cardboard pirate ship). That was good marketing, but they were still cool. My kids like them, too (we eat there maybe twice a year) and I can't really say the marketing is hurting anyone, yk?

re: Disney. I don't really care about them that much, one way or the other. The Disney Princess marketing turns my stomach, but dh likes them, and so does dd1. So, I live with it. I've talked to dd1 about why I'm not that crazy about them, and I absolutely refuse to buy poorly made, over-priced crap, just because it has Belle or Cinderella on it. (DD1 does have a few of their products, from my in-laws, and I just kind of shrug - they love Disney, and they only see their grandkids for one week a year...if sending dd1 an obnoxious talking mirror with princesses on it helps them all feel connected, it's a small price to pay.) DD1 has had a few DIsney clothes (actually, I have a couple of Disney World t-shirts), but not many. These are things I just tend to let go.

The movies? I think we own almost every Disney movie ever made. This is, again, something dh really wanted. I'd have probably chosen a few I remembered from my childhood (Bambi, Dumbo, Cinderella, Snow White, 101 Dalmatians and maybe Peter Pan, although I hate it after seeing it as an adult, and it's one of the few we don't have) and left it at that. But, I really don't find it a big deal to have them. Disney tv doesn't even enter the picture. The two middle kids have watched some Disney Channel at a friend's, where dd1 got hooked on Hannah Montana. I could have done without that! But...for all this Disney saturation, we don't have issues with the ads. We skip right over them on most of the movies (and the ads are mostly for other movies that we already own, anyway!) We don't watch commercial television and my kids have never seen ads for most Disney products. Except for this cheap, crappy-looking Princess table, the kids have never asked me for any Disney merchandise, and we simply explained that the table was expensive, not well made and would break very quickly. That was that.

There's a lot of Disney out there, and being exposed to Disney can mean many different things. We're on the high end of exposure for MDC, I think...but that still doesn't mean a child has to be sucked into the endless merchandising and marketing machine.


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## mama2004 (Nov 14, 2007)

Sure, but that's the point, it's not entirely neutral, so maybe that provides a platform for considering what or how a parent might want to include things that they remember fondly from their childhood. Or why. I have fond memories of something called a "Steak-Umm" (sp?) that we used to sometimes have for a snack or lunch. I think they still exist, but I wouldn't in a million years put one in my mouth again (I expect they've changed some in the thirty or so years since I last had one, also an important consideration, per this conversation), and I wouldn't offer one to ds. I believe that considering long term marketing strategies like those used (I think) by Disney are worth thinking about, whatever the conclusion.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I get what you're saying, but that means anything a child remembers fondly, unless it was purely natural (eg. the hikes in the woods with my mom, sister and dog) is an example of successful marketing. Does that mean we have to avoid all those things with our children, because they were marketed? I have good memories of "Pirate Paks" (the kids meal at a local restaurant, which comes in a cardboard pirate ship). That was good marketing, but they were still cool. My kids like them, too (we eat there maybe twice a year) and I can't really say the marketing is hurting anyone, yk?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *annalivia*
> 
> Sure, but that's the point, it's not entirely neutral, so maybe that provides a platform for considering what or how a parent might want to include things that they remember fondly from their childhood. Or why. I have fond memories of something called a "Steak-Umm" (sp?) that we used to sometimes have for a snack or lunch. I think they still exist, but I wouldn't in a million years put one in my mouth again (I expect they've changed some in the thirty or so years since I last had one, also an important consideration, per this conversation), and I wouldn't offer one to ds. I believe that considering long term marketing strategies like those used (I think) by Disney are worth thinking about, whatever the conclusion.


I think I'm just looking at this differently than you are. Sure - there was marketing. Without it, I wouldn't have known about the movies I liked at all. But, once I'd seen them and liked them, Cinderella, Bambi and Snow White were/are no different than Chitty Chitty Bang Bang or The Sound of Music...other movies that I loved and wanted to (and did) share with my kids. I guess I just don't see what considering the marketing has to do with this particular issue. I took my kids for an occasional Pirate Pak, because I thought they were a lot of fun as a kid, and an occasional "kids meal" isn't in conflict with how we're raising our kids. If it were in conflict, then I wouldn't have let them have Pirate Paks. Since I don't actually have a problem with the content of the Disney movies I mentioned (except for Peter Pan), the marketing aspect is irrelevant to me. I saw them, and I really liked them, and I have no problem with my kids seeing them. How they may have been marketed to me in the early 70s doesn't come into play.

And, honestly, one of dh's most treasued "things" with our kids is taking them to see a movie every Christmas season (late November/early December). He always takes them to the latest Disney release, so they've seen Enchanted (just dd1, as ds2 was too young that year), Bolt, Princess and the Frog and Tangled. Are they marketed? Of course they are. But, the reason they're special to my kids isn't the marketing - it's the special outing with their dad.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

I think that one important thing has not been mentioned here and that is the insidious things Disney movies teach children about gender, relationships and history. Children internalize messages like a happy ending MUST include the girlie character having the big pretty wedding. There are lots of problamatic messages within the Disney cannon but the ones about gender are the ones that kill me.

It's my hill to die on.

Yeah, I watched the movies as a child also because my mother LOVES Disney. And I learned lots of damaging stuff about body image, giving men what they want, being "pretty" having tremendous value and as I mentioned before how marriage is the most important thing _ever_. That is a big bag full of yuck, and it doesn't even include all the marketing crap.

So OP if I were in your situation I would not let this one go by just because your husband is being nostalgic. For something like Disney (or media more generally) its not about compromise...it can't be, because a child does not have the capability to process and deconstruct the messages they receive. Not even if a parent is there to talk them through it. Not until they are much older.

Maybe a good place to start is by getting rid of the TV. If you don't have it around you watch much less media.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> I think that one important thing has not been mentioned here and that is the insidious things Disney movies teach children about gender, relationships and history. Children internalize messages like a happy ending MUST include the girlie character having the big pretty wedding. There are lots of problamatic messages within the Disney cannon but the ones about gender are the ones that kill me.
> 
> ...


I think a child doesn't have those capabilities and I think if they DID, they wouldn't care. Most kids (having nannied a fair few before giving birth my own) are not deconstructing the bigger messages about gender etc. that are in some of their favorite movies...I think DD loves Ratatouille so much because because she likes rats!

I feel like we as parents are really projecting a lot of our adult issues we may or may not have with companies like Disney, onto our kids who really just want to watch a fun looking movie...

Now the issue of the marketing that goes along with all the movies is a problem, but only if YOU the parent lets it be one. DD may love Ratatouille but she isn't getting a blanket, watch, lunch box, stuffed animal, tee shirt etc. of the movie. I control that aspect and don't have a problem drawing the line between my kid enjoying a movie and not allowing the merchandising part of it to enter her life.

ETA, I completely respect if it is your hill to die on, I just find it hard to relate I guess because it is definitely not a hill to die on for me. I pick my battles about the whole subject and I don't really mind if DD watches a Disney movie.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

Get rid of the tv? Don't compromise with DH about Disney? PP, gently and honestly, were all of the negative images/ideas you processed only a result of Disney movies/exposure?

I love Disney World/Land and have since I was a child. I would go every single year if my husband had no say so in the matter. However, I'm not a fan of Disney movies and haven't been since I was a child. I don't like the images of beauty they represent but I also don't think Disney is all bad.I think, it's our jobs as parents, whether we let our kids watch a ton of Disney movies or none at all are responsible for setting the tone re: images of beauty,how we're to be treated, etc. It really burns me when (not directly at anyone in particular but it's been said before on MDC) people almost blame Disney for all that's wrong in this world.

Why does enjoying Disney have to be a result of successful marketing? Is it really not possible for me to go on a Disney vacation and have fun because I'm with my man and my baby? I don't think we give children enough credit when it comes to this kind of thing. I watched a heck of a lot more tv than my DD does and the only one thing I ever wanted was an Easy Bake Oven because I thought it meant being able to make cookies without waiting on my mother to do it. I thought books and movies like Cinderalla and Snow White were beyond silly but still enjoyed Disney.

I also agree a little bit with Laila2. I don't see where exposure to a Disney movie or Elmo is going to harm a child. If we raise children who are damaged because of a tickle me elmo doll or tshirt then I think that has more to do with what's going on in the home than with the Sesame Street organization.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

I am not a fan of Disney at all, but I must point out that, although OP's DH was exposed to it as a child, it must not have done much damage or she surely would not have married and even had a child with him.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> PP, gently and honestly, were all of the negative images/ideas you processed only a result of Disney movies/exposure?


No-but they are one of the largest bad guys in the over saturation of our children.

Quote:


> I control that aspect and don't have a problem drawing the line between my kid enjoying a movie and not allowing the merchandising part of it to enter her life.


Yes you can say no-over and over again. But, just because I say no doesn't change the fact that they base their bottom line on turning my kid into a consumer. And I won't give them any of my money to do that.

I am not going to expose him to it at home regardless of how great some of the content may be-there are plenty of other great things we can do that don't involve Disney (or Nick or Dora or Sponge Bob). I am fine with parents making different choices than me-it is all good. But, I also don't think those choices-when it comes to this kind of mass consumerism- are quite as free and clear as you (general you) are making them out to be.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> Get rid of the tv? Don't compromise with DH about Disney? PP, gently and honestly, were all of the negative images/ideas you processed only a result of Disney movies/exposure?
> 
> ...


Well I don't blame Disney for all that is wrong with the world but I do see them as a reflection (or symptom if you will) of certain issues like their depiction of gender norms. I hold Disney to a higher standard because of the fact that they create content for children and children are extremely impressionable. It does not matter if all the negative ideas I picked up were a result only of Disney, what matters is that these things _are in Disney movies_. Strongly. And I do not want my young child exposed to the stuff when he does not have the analytical capacity to sort it out.

I look at it this way: Kids (especially small kids) are socialization sponges. What they are exposed to on a day to day basis becomes their norm by which all other things are measured. That is why kids cling so strongly to "roles" and "this is for boys, that is for girls" stuff. The more stuff they are exposed to that reinforce these things the harder it will be for them to break through that paradigm in the future (when they are old enough to parse the deeper meanings themselves). Like it or not Disney is teaching your children how they are supposed to act and what they are supposed to believe. I don't find them a very good teacher, personally. And again, the crap they market reinforces these messages, but the originals come from the content of their stories (movies for sure, and I assume television. I dunno since I don't watch the Disney channel).

So for me watching the occasional Disney would be right up there with a vegetarian child being fed the occasional burger. If you are a Vegiatrian family your children don't eat meat and if you have a problem with media they don't consume media.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks Oak Tree Mama; I was beginning to think I had just been tossed in the irrelevant bin because I had confessed my age. 

And for those who say "hey, just regulate what your kids see" well of course I do that! Who would suggest otherwise. But we are living this right now in our house. All along we've been told "you can't shelter your kids; you can't stop them from seeing stuff" (this was brought up whenever we'd try and impose limited exposure to mass-marketed crap). And they are right. So, in a desire to be infinitely reasonable, you let a little bit in. (the expression "camel's nose under the tent" springs to mind) With us, it started not with Disney but with Spongebob. And we only allowed Spongebob one day a week. We dubbed it "Cartoon Monday" and since to my son, watching cartoons only meant Spongebob (because he didn't know cartoons; never watch them on TV in our house), he'd look up Spongebob on the On-Demand menu provided by our cable company. But of course, even with Spongebob there are the commercials, and the other Nickelodeon shows promoted before and after the show. So then he's like "Hey, can I see what that Hero Factory is? Hey, can I see what Power Rangers are?" So there I am forced to either be a jerk and say "No! put your blinders on, kid", I am reasonable and say sure, you can see that, we'll decide if it's any good. And so he watches it, and he likes it. Power Rangers Samurai in small doses is not objectionable (I say small doses because they do tend to solve all their problems through violence even though they promote good values like friendship, self-discipline and loyalty), but then he loves the Power Rangers and wants to see them when they come on "live, on TV" (as opposed to OnDemand) because they are so heavily promoted. Ok, so we say, go ahead and watch it on TV when it comes on, at which point he's exposed to even more commercials for shows he now wants to see. And what's worse, the TOYS that they all suddenly want from watching the show. Of course, we make him save up his allowance for those, so that is not such a huge problem.

But at some point you've become this giant gatekeeper, saying No, No, No, No, all day long, and frankly it gets a little negative. Of course it's my job to say No, so don't anyone get high & mighty and lecture me that it's my job. I know that. But it's as if every single day a traveling salesman showed up at your door with boxes of products that were harmful to your kids. He knocked, you said No. He pushed the door, so you had to push harder. He came every day. He knocked when you were sleeping, he knocked during dinner. He parked his car outside your house like a stalker and tried to wave the products at your kids when they waited for the bus. At some point you'd cry "harrassment," wouldn't you? Well that is where I stand now. Sure I can say no, but I'm sick of having it forced at us at every turn. Commercialism is a creepy cancer in our kid's lives.

Before we let all this into our house it wasn't a problem. We watched educational shows all day and had a blast. We learned so much! But now my kid has a full-fledged craving. He's learned that nice little lethargic slump that kids do across the couch when suddenly their lives aren't interesting any more and all they want is their program du jour. So we've had to limit the Disney/Nickelodeon/Nick Jr type fare more overtly (as in a policy), and we've had many long conversations about WHY, and about advertising, when it's good, when it's not, and about the actual merit of all the commercials that he sees, and that all commercials are NOT bad, but Madison Avenue's got an army of child psychologists whose sole job it is to put a wedge between me & my kid, and me & my money. My kid gets far more parental involvement and teaching on the subject than a mere "No!" and a banning of things.

So I hope it's understandable why I feel resentful against these multi billion dollar corporations whose job is not to provide for my child's well-being, but to make it extra hard for ME to do the same. They rely on us throwing up our hands and saying "what's the harm"? There's a LOT of harm, and it's all documented quite nicely in that web site I quote somewhere above (Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood). It's time for a little more common sense, and a little less denial.

In summary, of COURSE I regulate what my kid sees. We've narrowed it down to 1 hour of Nickelodeon/Disney type shows (i.e. highly commercial, heavily marketed kid fare) on Mon, Wed, Fri, and Sunday. For the rest of the days he's welcome to watch tapes and shows, but they can't be that garbage that's targeted TO kids. Doesn't it strike you as odd that I am sitting here trying to protect my kid from shows that are MADE FOR & MARKETED TO KIDS?

Age has nothing to do with it. I spent so much time in front of the TV growing up, it isn't funny. I am expert on 70's TV trivia. I lived on I Dream of Jeannie and Gilligan's Island, the network movies of the week, Charlie's Angels, Dallas and Falcon Crest and Dynasty, Munsters and Bewitched, Hill Street and St. Elsewhere....the list would wrap around the earth a few times if I listed them. But I believe there's more at stake nowadays than just idle time in front of the tube. Much, much, more. And one glance at how kids are doing these days, well-being-wise, will tell anyone that maybe parents need to sit up and take notice.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

We do watch Disney (movies, not TV - we don't have one), but DD (who's just turned three) hasn't started nagging for Tinkerbell backpacks or Belle pencil cases. I think it's partly because she doesn't see the ads; and perhaps partly because she doesn't go to preschool or daycare and get the peer pressure thing; but also just because our general "vibe" is that we don't buy stuff.

Not that we don't buy Disney stuff; we just don't buy much stuff, period. We don't shop for fun (well, I enjoy grocery shopping, but we don't hang out at malls, you know?); on the rare occasions we end up in a non-food-selling shop, we're usually there for something specific like craft supplies or whatever. So she doesn't associate seeing an item with the possibility of getting an item; to her, a treat is a milkshake or chippies when we're out, but not stickers or a toy. So if she sees a Cinderella shirt, she'll say "Look Mummy, the dancing girl on a shirt!" in great delight, I'll say "Wow, it's Cinderella, that's cool!", and we'll move along on our merry way. No muss, no fuss. I don't care if she recognises the characters and is pleased to see them - heck, it makes my day a little brighter to see Luke Skywalker hanging out on somebody's T-shirt. Why not?  I won't buy them, because I think they're tacky, (generally) badly-made and made in appalling labour conditions. Plus, I prefer to sew DD's clothes myself. And so on. But by living a relatively unmaterialistic lifestyle, we've avoided - so far, at least - the Disney gimmes, without having to make a specific issue of it.

I do think parents should be allowed to limit/ban characters that drive them nuts, though; even if the reason isn't related to deep feminist issues or something equally weighty. If Dora's voice drives you insane, you shouldn't have to listen to it for three hours a day. I can't stand Barbie, so DD doesn't have one (luckily, for aforementioned reasons, she doesn't care - she did see a Barbie poster the other day and say "Look, a blonde lady!", but that's all she knows!); similarly bands like Hi 5 and the Wiggles, although I might well find them philosophically innocuous if I researched them, drive me nuts, so DD doesn't listen to them. It would be different if DH really felt strongly that she was missing out, though.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow. Look at this article that just came across my FB newsfeed, by sheer coincidence:

http://www.alternet.org/books/150410/how_disney_invaded_american_childhood_to_shill_worthless_crap_to_our_kids/


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

oaktreemama, you make some very good points in your most recent post, and all your reasons for limiting that stuff are valid. I have a thing against Nickelodeon in general and Spongebob in particular, so I can relate to a lot of what you say even though we are more lax about Disney stuff here. That said, having a DVR helps tremendously with many of the things you point out -- my kids don't see the commercials or the promos for other shows on that channel, they only see the actual show we recorded.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> I am fine with parents making different choices than me-it is all good.


I'm truly curious -- what if the other parent who wants to make a different choice is your kids' other parent? That's the situation the OP finds herself in, and I'm having trouble picturing how a "hill to die on" conversation about this might go when the person you (general you) are debating is your partner (who, presumably, has equal concern for and say in how your children are reared).


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I think the OP does need to compromise with her DH or have a broader perspective on the issues she wants to avoid.

It is also true that marketing to children is insidious. Cars is funny and brilliantly marketed. My kids love it and the more they do the more I hate it. My son has 3 snot rods and is that enough - no, he tells me he needs 4. 2 years ago I had kept it out of the house. I let my MIL give him a little car and now we have a million of them and they all have to be wearing the right paint job for the right scence. It's obscene. Do I personally buy this stuff for the kids - I've bought them a couple cars (special airplane ride toy, that type of thing), but it's mostly gifts from relatives. Do I play mean mommy and ban others from buying us commercial toys or just get rid of it after we receive it? So far, no, I don't. Do we now have obscene amounts of cute little Cars cars that will no doubt be added to when the new Cars movie comes out this coming summer? Yes.

Our culture is drowning in consumerism. It's hard to stay afloat. When you have family you know and love that just doesn't see they are drowning and wasting money and throwing more and more stuff into OUR lives that we have to either ban or force out or deal with... UGH.

Ok, that was a rant. I totally get where the OP is coming from and I have taken the compromise route and it worked for a while. With the way my extended family is, we let in a little and it floods in. So now it's a couple years down the road and I don't know what to advise or say.

I had over 10 CPK when I was a kid - so I guess I lived it then and now I'm suffering it now. I liked it when I was little but I really didn't understand.

Tjej


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> I think that one important thing has not been mentioned here and that is the insidious things Disney movies teach children about gender, relationships and history. Children internalize messages like a happy ending MUST include the girlie character having the big pretty wedding. There are lots of problamatic messages within the Disney cannon but the ones about gender are the ones that kill me.
> 
> It's my hill to die on.


This is why I avoided a lot of the older Disney movies for a long time. I didn't like the messages I internalized about women from a young age and I didn't want that for my dd. Those messages come from everywhere in our society, but I think that when we spend large chunks of time watching those messages (over and over again for many kids) we give them more importance. I didn't regulate the products that made their way into the house because very few did, but I didn't get the movies or the books until my dd showed me that she was ready for them and had become used to watching movies with strong female characters who don't get married at the end of the show. I didn't tell my dd that we wouldn't do Disney movies, I just really discouraged the ones with marriage themes and found alternatives until I felt that she could handle them without buying into the crappy theme. When she watched them she was horrified that the princess got married and she hasn't wanted to watch those ones since. Some of the newer movies actually include some better themes that are more appropriate for a child though so they are getting better very slowly.

I think talking to your husband about what you want for your daughter as an adult and how these movies affected your view of who you should be would be a good place to start. Agreeing on an age to introduce them or allowing the ones that don't have themes that go against your morals may be a good place to compromise if your problem is with the way women are portrayed rather than just a blanket disagreement with marketing. If you are concerned with marketing in general then I am not sure where you would start. In our society everything is marketed somehow, some companies are just more successful at it than others. Getting rid of your tv is also a great idea and I second it. I love not having a tv, there is so much that you can get free or cheap online that a tv and the cost of hooking it up just isn't a good investment anyways.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

MDC was down for a while earlier and a post I made got lost in the shuffle. But, I have trouble with the gender thing. I watched Disney moves, including the older princess ones (Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, which I didn't like as well as the other two, except that I loved the two fairies arguing over the dress colour). I never internalized any of the messages that I hear people talking about from this stuff. DD1 does like princesses...but she also loves digging in the dirt for spiders, snails and worms. And, she gets most of the princess stuff second hand from a neighbour, and banning Disney from our house wouldn't change that at all.

I certainly agree that everybody needs to make their own decisions about this stuff, and if I hadn't married a man who loves Disney and whose parents love Disney, we wouldn't have anywher near as much of it in our home. But, he is their dad, and it's not like I'm the only one making decisions here. If this is a hill to die on, it's a hill to die on, but there's no way the OP can actually stop her dh from liking Disney or sharing it with their kids. I suspect that arguing/debating it is going to make it a bigger deal that it already is.


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## CrunchyMama74 (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi, OP here. First of all, thank you to everyone for your responses, they were all thoughtfully written and each gave me something to think about. I can see now that my wording was a bit harsher than intended; I guess what I'm really looking for is tools to facilitate an educated discussion regarding what we will and won't allow regarding "mainstream media", what the facts are about cartoons, etc. My husband and I had very different upbringings (i was homeschooled, raised on a commune) and as a result we have very different views, but we have learned to approach them with respect and love.

Lesson learned: don't post in the heat of the moment! I clearly came off much harsher than intended.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

OP Thanks for your kind words. I wanted to clarify a bit. I think what you exude will have a lot of influence on what your dd decides for herself. I do not exude the ciderella stories etc, therefore DD does not hold a candle for the princess. And I also wanted to point out, that at some point she will be exposed, and that best happens with you who cares best. When we watch the movies together, it gives me oppotunity to add my opinions on what is happening, for instance I say, cinderella is happy because she found a prince, because a long time ago women thought those were the only choices (or words to those effect). then I go on to tell her how many choices are available in the present world.


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## quaz (May 24, 2005)

I haven't read all the posts, and I will need to go back and do so. I have thought about this over the yeras, and I haven't figured out my thoughts on it. We didn't licensed items here. We did however, have nice toys. Groovy girls received a ton of play for years. My daughters do have a princess doll or two they received as gifts, but they didn't play with them. They did love the princess nightgowns I'd pick up on clearance at the Disney store, but they always pretended they were someone else rather than a Disney princess. Peter Pan did play into their play, but when it comes from a book, I'm not sure I can condemn the licensed aspect.

Strangely enough, I've seen FAR more play drawn from having read Harry Potter, and next to no princess play despite licensed Disney items in the home. All recent pretend play now revolves around HP plots. I think we would have a hard time saying reading the books have stiffled their imaginary play, but they are pulling from something they did not overtly create.

I think it is a laudable goal to do everything to retain their creativity. My point is that I think a bigger impact to creativity has less to do with licensed items and far more to do with the tone set in the home. Quality toys, free time, free access to art supplies. I found this bolstered creativity far more.


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## Ella Enchanted (Mar 6, 2011)

Children can be exposed to some licensed characters without it completely stunting their imaginations. It's a balance. If al they have are dolls that go to tv shows and movies, and they watch the shoes/movies all the time, that's a problem. But if they have a few, and watch less on the screen, then some Disney princess dolls mixes with their other toys is just fine. I understand your concern, I really do. Keeping our daughter from being oversaturated in mainstream media was a concern for us too. So we put some limits on it. Disney is okay (a sentimental part of both our childhoods that we are sharing with our daughter), Sesame Street characters and Barney and most other things drive me up the wall. Neither my husband nor I care much for Dora the Explorer, but her grandpa thinks Dora is adorable (his girlfriend has a granddaughter obsessed with it and so he sees it a lot), so we let her have the Dora things her grandpa gives her. Nothing really wrong with a character that encourages bilingualism. Barbie is banned. I did internalize the message that extreme thinness is beautiful, and that life needs a dream car and Malibu mansion. I got over the latter two, but the first message I got from Barbie was skinniness is beautiful, and I have lasting issues. Plus Barbie is very much about materialism. Any dolls that cross-promote with other brands are out. At no time can her licensed-character toys make up more than 5% of the toys she plays with.

The key is moderation and being involved in play. "Oh no, Generic Dolls 1 and 2 and Ariel are trapped behind the couch! How are Tiana and Generic Doll 3 going to save them?!" You and your husband can BOTH have your way. He can share Disney with her, as he has every right to do, and you can encourage free-play by combining the Disney toys with non-Disney.

The thing is, books aren't going to help your case if he won't read them. You don't need to be convinced of your position, and he's thoroughly convinced of his position. The books that are out aren't about the evils of having a few character dolls among many other non-character dolls. The books take the extreme cases, the kids who have everything charactered, from dolls to dresses to lunch boxes. Moderation isn't harmful, but a total saturation is.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I just wanted to add that whatever you decide, be aware that your approach may change (or may need to change as your child gets older). When dd was very young, it was easy to regulate what she saw. She didn't see any television/movies/DVDs until she was two and a half. Nearly all of her "baby" toys were natural and all were free of licensed characters.

When dd started going to nursery school, she simply had more exposure to those things. She's always been in schools that discourage commercial characters, but kids still talk about them. Out of nowhere, she could identify characters that she saw--including ones that we didn't know. We also started allowing limited amount of screen time, but only DVDs or streaming videos. She now gets birthday gifts from her friends and some of them are NOT what I would choose--Tinkerbell, etc. But you know what? It's such a small fraction of what she owns and sees that I just can't get that crazy about it.

When she was one, my dd was diagnosed with very serious and extensive food allergies. So though we always swore we wouldn't be Disney parents, we now plan vacations to Disney every year or two. You know why? Because they are SO good about food allergies, even allergies as extensive as my daughter's. Disney World is literally the only place we've gone where she is able to eat in the restaurants. Being able to take a vacation where we don't have to pack an extra suitcase full of food and worry about prepping every single meal or snack is worth the tradeoff of ending up with one or two Disney stuffed animals in my house.

We have some lines we're firm on. We're okay with some screen time, but nothing with commercials. We'll buy some licensed items (mostly stickers and invisible ink books), but if dd wants anything else, she needs to purchase it with her own allowance money. But we're not going to take away, say, the licensed character party favors she gets at a friend's birthday. No clothing items with characters. These are compromises that work well for us.

As for the gender messages, I agree wholeheartedly. But sexist and heteronormative messages pervade every aspect of our culture. I don't fool myself into thinking that if dd doesn't watch Rapunzel, she's going to avoid those messages. So instead, we work actively to explain and counteract those messages, in an age-appropriate way. In any case, I had a couple dozen Barbies and watched every Disney movie that came down the pike, and I still ended up a hardcore feminist--so go figure.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have very very fond memories of playing for a long time in the bathtub with my Simba and Nala figures and a host of other animals. They were a part of my imaginary play! I used the licensed characters the same as I did the non licensed ones, I don't think they had any affect at all on my imagination..

Now Barbie, I had tons of them and they are something my daughter will NEVER have...That is one of the few gifts that I will give right back to the giver no matter what DD's age...I honestly HATE Barbie, thank you for giving an entire generation of young girls warped and distorted views of what beauty is...Ick


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