# Christians, how do you discipline your children?



## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

I wasnt sure what forum to put this in so, I put it here







It's long, and sensitive, so please forgive me.

DH and I are Christian. He was raised going to church and in a Christian home, and I was raised in the type of home where we went to church on Easter Sunday.

My husbands best friend growing up, his wife, and his sister all discipline using the Pearls method. We've been somewhat close to them since they moved where we live (Idaho from California) and we've seen their children around once a week or so since they've been born, with a few months of not seeing them spattered in. I've always had a very very hard time with how they treat their children. They use a switch and hit her 5 or 6 times with it every time she disobeys. This can be anything from sulking (she's 3) when asked to do something, or not having a joyful heart. The more she cries the more they spank her. Their sister is proud of the fact she first switched her daughter at 9 months.

I need to say, that up until a month ago, I spanked my son. I didn't use the Pearls method (I've read bits and pieces and it breaks my heart and disgusts me). Please don't flame me. I feel horrible sadness and guilt as it is. Everyone I know told me that to raise godly children I had to spank them. My inlaws (whom I love so much), our friends, grandparents, everyone. When my son did something wrong, I'd ask him not to do it again. If he did it again then I'd take him someplace quiet, tell him he was getting a spanking and why. then I'd spank him twice hug him and tell him how much I loved him. He'd maybe get spanked once or twice a month, as we tried to use other forms of discipline and only spanked for things where he was hurting someone.

I started watching my friends and how they spanked their daughter 15 times in one BBQ. You could hear her screaming from the other room. I couldn't contain my tears. She and her cousin have always been mean children. I know it is because they're being abused. On three separate occasions I've seen them hurt my son when they don't think anyone is watching. I didn't say anything because I didn't want them to be switched, but I am always having to keep my son away from them and not let them play alone, to protect him. They're very withdrawn, the one we're closer to, she is becoming extremely violent. I have continued a friendship with them, albeit strained, because I was trying to think of ways I could help the girls. I began praying and when my MIL came and saw how they disciplined she also began praying.

Well, I noticed that after I spanked my son for shoving one of the little girls down he got ANGRY. He started screaming wildly and hitting me and punching me and screaming "YOU NEVER hit me YOU NEVER NEVER!!!". I burst out crying and hugged him for an hour. When he'd get in trouble for something he'd scream "Don't spank me no no no no no!". Even spanking him MAYBE twice a month he was so traumatized.

I began praying and the response I've received from God is so powerful I am quite taken aback. I will never, ever hit my child again. I'm so ashamed and sad that I have, I can't even put it into words. I am not abusive, I am not a bad parent, I love my son SO MUCH but I truly believed if I didn't spank him I would ruin him.

I'm finding it so painful that the Christians I know are the most abusive parents I know. They beat their children in the name of God. They hit tiny babies, they go to churches where they have child training rooms, and if the children speak or jump or move they're beaten with switches. These are children as young as 1. Last time we had a play date, the little girl was switched for having a bad attitude. She is three years old.

Her parents keep talking about how she's just getting worse and worse, and they keep disciplining and its not working. they believe in a consequence for every action. And that consequence is switching. I'm trying to see how this relates to God. It seems like they're bringing on the flood for every minor transgression. That is NOT the God I know. I can't find anything Jesus says about spanking children but I can find a lot he says about harming them.

I need help now. I believe God is going to use me and my awakening to help them. Their father has tears in his eyes when he describes her behavior because she is getting worse and worse and obviously the whippings are making it worse. They truly want to do the best for their children but don't know how.

I've been to gentle christian mothers, but I so admire so many of the strong Christian women here. I would love to know you discipline your children. I would also love any and all book recommendations on christian discipline.

I feel at a loss now, as how to parent my own son and especially how to help these little girls. My guilt is making it so I don't do anything now and I'm letting him run amok, and that needs to change but right now I'm just kinda going with the flow. He's such an amazing little boy and I love him so much.

Thank you for sticking with me (if you did







) and again please don't flame me for spanking my son. It won't help me and it won't help my situation. I know better now and will never raise my hands to my children.

Thank you


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

I couldn't read and not respond. Your post brought tears to my eyes. I'm so glad you prayed and received a response. I, too, used to advocate for spanking. When I saw the damage it did to my stepsons, dh and I figured out a different way, and the kids are doing so much better!

The way I try to live my life is as Christ-like as I can, and I remember him with the little children. No violence with them! I also keep in mind what children are and aren't able to control. Oh, if I were spanked every time I had a bad attitude, I'd never sit down!

I do not wish to control my children. I wish to watch them open up and become the people God created them to be. I never want my children to feel pain because of my hand or mouth.


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## maberrysx5 (May 11, 2008)

I do not agree with the Pearls' methods either! but that's a soapbox for another day

((hugs)) to you


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Christian here.

We use:

- time outs for hurting people

- Logical consequences like losing a video game for a week after yelling at me about wanting to keep playing it

- talking about what happened and what would have been a better idea

- storytelling. I like how Jesus taught people with parables. Sometimes when you take the focus off of the person who did something, it's easier to see why we don't do that (hit people, make a mess, etc)

- I use the coloring pages from the book The 21 Rules of this House, minus the one that seems to show a dad getting ready to administer a spanking (the "Accept Correction" page. But the rules themselves make sense and I have our kids learn them.

Here are the 21 rules:

Quote:

The 21 Rules Of This House
by Gregg Harris

1. We obey God.
2. We love, honor and pray for one another.
3. We tell the truth.
4. We consider one another's interests ahead of our own.
5. We speak quietly and respectfully with one another.
6. We do not hurt one another with unkind words or deeds.
7. When someone needs correction, we correct him in love.
8. When someone is sorry, we forgive him.
9. When someone is sad, we comfort him.
10. When someone is happy, we rejoice with him.
11. When we have something nice to share, we share it.
12. When we have work to do, we do it without complaining.
13. We take good care of everything that God has given us.
14. We do not create unnecessary work for others.
15. When we open something, we close it.
16. When we take something out, we put it away.
17. When we turn something on, we turn it off.
18. When we make a mess, we clean it up.
19. When we do not know what to do, we ask.
20. When we go out, we act just as if we were in this house.
21. When we disobey or forget any of the 21 Rules of This House, we accept
the discipline and instruction of the Lord.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

Have you read any of Dr. Sears' parenting or discipline books? If not, I'd highly recommend "The Discipline Book" (vague title, eh?







) and "The Successful Child." Sears and his wife are both Christians and are a good alternative to the punitive Christian radicals.

My dh and I are both strong Christians and feel that being both into AP and Gentle Discipline are absolutely in line with our faith. We also practice Consensual Living and are Alfie Kohn advocates (have you read Unconditional Parenting?).

I personally feel it's best to lead by example. Perhaps your friends will see how gentle methods work for your child and will be guided in that direction. Or perhaps not. Perhaps they will tell you their discipline woes and you can ask if they'd like to borrow your copy of Dr. Sears book. Perhaps you can casually mention that you read about how the AAP is strongly against spanking children and that you're worried that spanking causing them more discipline problems than it's helping. Perhaps they'll change, perhaps not. All you can do is plant a seed. You never know how God is going to use you as an ambassador.

Most Christians I know are no more punitive than the public at large. I think most people spank or use time-outs or star charts or bribes. Most Christians I've found are no different. I don't know what church you attend but since this seems to be a major issue at your current church, I humbly recommend that you look elsewhere. We currently attend an Assembly of God church, and that is a very family-friendly environment. I'm sure some parents spank (as I said, I think most American families still resort to this form of discipline) but it's not advocated in any way nor is it encouraged. In fact, we talk a lot about grace, so grace-based parenting is not much of a stretch. (I actually think there is a book called "Grace Based Parenting" but I've never read it. It might be a good read for you, though).

I'm thrilled that you are no longer spanking your son. I think that shows a great deal of courage to rethink your parenting methods. Blessings to you!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

There is a wonderful thread in Gentle Discipline that a mama sent a letter to her pastor... http://www.mothering.com/discussions...286&highlight=

And he eventually responded,http://www.mothering.com/discussions...370&highlight= and even thanked her again a year later... http://www.mothering.com/discussions...691&highlight=

Maybe this could help get some theological backup to present to your friends?


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## pink gal (Feb 27, 2008)

A while back a mama named dulce de leche posted the following letter that she had sent to her pastor. I think it is SO well written and makes a wonderful case for Christ like discipline that does not include spanking.

Kudos to you for seeking a new way to connect with your child and help him learn. I can understand that you feel bad for spanking in the past, but remember that forgiveness is powerful and this can be a wonderful opportunity to model repentence with your son.

There are a couple of really good websites with lots of resources for more gentle techniques to teach and correct your children in the letter below. I wish you the best as you start out on this journey of finding new ways to connect with your son.

link: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=955691


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

I've always considered myself AP, and most of my parenting practices evolved from reading William Sears, MD, The Baby Book while I was pg with my first.

My very conservative Christian aunt sent me a parenting book after my dd was born. I was bracing myself for the worst when I unwrapped it, but it turned out to be William Sears, MD, Christian Parenting
I was honestly expecting something like Ezzo or Pearl and was very pleased to discover this book instead and to realize that my conservative Christian relations had essentially the same parenting philosophy I did!

I've read that it was written as an alternative to abusive methods of childrearing labeled Christian, although the book does not mention this openly.There are lots of bible references supporting gentle discipline practices, and the fact that the author is an MD would also carry authority with many parents, I think.

I have never met Pearl parents, but if I were in the situation you are in, OP, I'd get this book, read it, and offer it to your friends and family who are beginning to question their methods of discipline. I'm sure there must be other Christian gentle discipline books out there by now, too.

ETA thanks for posting that letter pink gal! I was going to go looking for it, myself!


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you so much for the kind responses. I really appreciate them.

I hear you about the bad attitude, I don't understand why they're not allowed to have feelings. Also, a lot of the stuff I see are things that they are just developmentally not able to do. Like following super long, detailed commands and such.

I LOVE the 21 rules to this house. Those are awesome and I am so glad you showed them to me.

The parables idea is a really good one too.

I do have Dr. Sear's the Discipline book, but I've never read it







I will for sure. I haven't read Unconditional Parenting but would like to.

My friends except me to spank Ru when he hurts one of their children. So we're going to explain to them that God has led me to not spank. I would love some bible versus to help me explain my thoughts, so I'm going to get to googling. I would also like to know how to handle my son when he hurts people on purpose. We haven't had that problem in a month or so, so we haven't had to deal with it. Though he has been hurting his brother lately and I don't know what to do, so I just say "that is not kind, you may not hurt your brother" and then move him. Sometimes I see he's hurting him because he's knocking down something he's trying to build, and I explain that I know bow frustrating it is, but Leif is a baby and doesn't know any better, then I keep him away so he can build his tower or whatever. My DH would like some sort of punitive action for hurting so maybe time outs will work.

We don't actually belong to a church. My husband hates the hypocrisy he's found in churches, but promised me we'd start going when Rune turned 2. Since he's almost three now we've been looking. The church I was referencing is my friends church and what we observed when visiting. It was so awkward because I was not going to spank him for being a child, and they were all expecting me to. It was very uncomfortable. I hate feeling like I have this horrible unruly child when he's really a very good child.

You're right about Christians parenting along the lines of most Americans. I just was so frustrated that SO many people we've met use the Pearls method. I know 7 or 8 people off the top of my head. Another that told me I would never have "warriors of God" if I didn't switch them, and then I just found out our new "friends" CIO with their 1 week old baby







Then we went to CA to visit our inlaws and most of their friends and homeschool group parents do the Pearls or modified versions. It just really breaks my heart. How are children going to find a deep, true love of God when they're switched constantly?

Right now my husband is going to go along with no more spanking. He is worried that that means no discipline and that we're going to let our kids do whatever they want. I'm trying to let him know we will have rules and consequences they just won't be violent.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

wow. That letter is crazy powerful. Thank you so much for posting it.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Aimee** 
Right now my husband is going to go along with no more spanking. He is worried that that means no discipline and that we're going to let our kids do whatever they want. I'm trying to let him know we will have rules and consequences they just won't be violent.

I'd like to suggest to have your husband read Anthony Wolf's, "The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments". It's an authoritative (but not authoritarian) parenting viewpoint, but nonpunitive. It is not Christian-based, and now that I think about it there are some swear words where he's quoting 'scripts' that kids and adults might have together







but if you can get past that, it's a GREAT book from someone who is coming from a punitive, authoritarian, obey without question viewpoint to transition into a gentler way to parent. It is a quick read, and IMO gives great explanations of why kids do what they do and how punishments and threats work against a close parent-child bond. It isn't lovey dovey or way "out there", which is what turns many men off the more gentle discipline books - this is kind of a 'man's man'







kind of book, but I loved it too, even as woman.


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## PaulaJoAnne (Oct 18, 2008)

Aimee, You will find this link to be of great help to you. I have been eating up the info myself







)
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/


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## singin_angel (Feb 10, 2009)

Aimee - I'm not Christian, but I thought I would share this book with you. It is written by a woman who was a nun, she now has a wonderful family. The book is called "Kids Are Worth It!" by Barbara Colorado. She has fantastic strategies that parents can try to discipline their child while leaving their self-worth and dignity intact.

It really was a fantastic read, with great examples, and I would recommend it to any parent.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whistler* 
I like that site. I don't feel like I can talk about my ideas for discipline on here because I'll get either flamed or preached at or thrown hundreds of parenting books.

The fact remains that MDC is not a place that will discuss hitting as a form of discipline.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Altair said:


> from the above link:
> ETA: This page is about hitting babies under a year old, is that allowed to be advocated on MDC?
> 
> 
> > No. The post was reported and removed.


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## Whistler (Jan 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
The fact remains that MDC is not a place that will discuss hitting as a form of discipline.

That's fine. I respect that position.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Heyla all!

I hope this thread can stay on topic (discipline within a specifically Christian framework)... to that end, please keep in mind the MDC User Agreement guideline:

Quote:

Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. *We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment*, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.
In addition, the Gentle Discipline forum is intended

Quote:

to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children
while the Spirituality forum provides a place for

Quote:

support, respectful requests of information, and sharing of faith and practice
As such, please keep this conversation focused on the spiritual or religious aspects of parenting and contact a moderator directly (via PM) with any questions or concerns you may have!

Thanks all, and be well.


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## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

First, of course, I try to teach proper behavior by example.

Other methods:
-I discuss expectations in advance (when I pick you up from school, you may not run out the door without me, you need to stay with me). This is surprisingly effective w/my 4 yo, not so much with my 2 yo
-If the kids are not treating a person/thing respectfully, either the object, or the child is removed (they smash/throw toys, I remove the toy for a while)
-Hitting, etc., gets a time out, 1 minute per year of life (I know many here disapprove)
-There is a general rule that we don't do fun, special things if they are not behaving appropriately. For instance, if we were on our way to the playground, and DD hit me, or was otherwise seriously disrespectful, the trip would be canceled. If my younger kicks me while I'm getting him dressed for bed, he loses out on the bedtime story. Honestly, because they understand this, they pretty rarely do anything this disrespectful. The playground one was made up, b/c I can't think of something my DD has done lately. I would generally give a single warning on this type of thing.
-I "catch" them being good - "Thanks for clearing your plate without me asking!" "I really like how you're cooperating today, it makes me happy!"


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## PDeverit (May 15, 2009)

Here are just a couple of many Christians who advocate against hitting kids:

Christians For Non-Violent Parenting

Parenting in Jesus' Footsteps
- www.parentinginjesusfootsteps.org

Here are just a couple others who advocate against hitting kids:

American Academy of Pediatrics

Center for Effective Discipline

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

Global Initiative to End All
Corporal Punishment of Children

PsycHealth, Ltd.,
Behavioral Health Professionals


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## PDeverit (May 15, 2009)

Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little research):

"Even without sexual motives on the part of the punisher, spanking can interfere with a child's normal sexual and psychological development. Because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sensations of sexual pleasure. This can happen even in very young children, and even in spite of great, clearly upsetting pain."
Tom Johnson Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children

"...The buttocks are the locus for the induction of pain in a child. We are familiar with the argument that it is a safe 'locus' for spanking. However, the anal region is also the major erotic region at precisely the time the child is likely to be beaten there. Thus it is aptly chosen to achieve the result of deranged sexuality in adulthood..." 1971 (p. 113)

David Bakan, Slaughter of the Innocents,1971 (p. 113)

"Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest."
British Psychological Society, "Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools" (1980)

"But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals..."

Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629

Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.

Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 40-50 years ago, many children would have been spared its consequences.

To learn more about this issue, visit www.nospank.net, or another comparable link.


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## Whistler (Jan 30, 2009)

Having a rhythm to our day helps the most to keep things on an even keel. I have heard this called "habit training" although I doubt we take it as far as some with a really rigid schedule. But especially with meals if we keep them at roughly the same time of day it helps so much because IMO a lot of "acting out" is based on hunger or low blood sugar. Another thing that we do as a habit is picking up. We pick up the toys every day before we eat lunch and they are used to that since we do it consistently each time.

We also practice. If one of the kids does something that hurts someone else or is unsafe I walk through the situation with them and model a better response or action. For instance, we practice walking around the car and staying out of the alley and practice being gentle with the pets or playing nicely together.

Something that really helps the "leaving the playground" problems is a warning. I tell them they may play for one more minute (or five more minutes) and they can finish whatever they are doing. I am amazed how well it works to prevent the tantrums that can go with leaving a playground.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

thank you for all the wonderful advice. I feel very much equipped now.

Today we talked about how I was sorry I used to spank him, and I promised to use kindness from now on. He said it made him feel bad and sad and mad when I spanked him. Then later when I was telling DH what he said he covered his ears. It really devastates me on so many levels.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

you should be proud of yourself for being committed to fixing your relationship - I know I'm proud of you, and I don't even know you - I'm always in awe of parents who can change the cycles they've lived and learned in the face of opposition. I'm sure you'll have ups and downs like any parent-child pair, but I'm confident any issues can be repaired, and that you and your son can and will heal.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Please check out the www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb site that was linked to.







Until recently I was a GD moderator there and it's been a wonderful place of learning and support to me. Check out the GD Forum as well as the GD Info and FAQs section. In addition, you may find the articles at AOLFF helpful. I'm a firm believer in Grace-Based Discipline and have loved developing the skills that help me parent in that manner. I also have a friend who's written a response to TTUAC that you might be interested in here.

HTH!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

**Aimee**, this is such a powerful, big step. You and your family will be in my prayers.

One thing that helps me is to ask myself "How would Jesus deal with this?" I can never picture him striking a child.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you so much. I feel now that we told DS we're not going to be hitting him anymore he's going crazy. He's not listening to anything we ask him to do, hurting his (sick) baby brother constantly and wow, really being 2







He is giving us a run for our money. Last night he wanted to go get dinner with DH, and when they got to the store he wanted to sit on a bench. DH told him that he knew he wanted to sit there, but they needed to hurry so they could get back home because it was late. DS started screaming and lay flat on the floor!! He's never done this. So DH brought him back home and then left. I told him that because he couldn't follow Daddy's rules for the store he had to sit with me at home so Daddy could finish his shopping.

It seemed to be effective, but he cried for almost 20 min. about not being able to go get dinner. I really felt that with spanking I had a plan. Of course it was an abusive plan that, in DS's words, "is just not working". But I feel now that I'm kinda just flailing along. I'm going to check out all the links today.

Thank you again, you ladies are so fantastic


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Also from Scripture:
Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul.
~ Proverbs 29:17

"Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me."
~ Matthew 25:40

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
~ Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
~ Colossians 3:21

"But we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children." 1 Thessalonians 2:7
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:12

"What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip (KJV says rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?" 1 Corinthians 4:21

This link
has more about the rod.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Thank you, annettemarie.

I am glad this is a safe place for those of us who don't believe the Proverbs verses mean to beat your child with an inch-thick rod (shebet). B/c "spanking" is nowhere in the Bible. Discipline is.

And believe it or not, I discipline my children. They are well-disciplined and I've been told we're the only family people have seen that don't spank yet actually *discipline* our children. Plus, spanking doesn't automatically = discipline. It's the teaching that goes on that disciples our children. Here's an excellent post called Spanking isn't the issue or the focus that addresses that very thing, that it's the *teaching* that's key to discipline/discipleship.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

You'll actually find that many of us like to dig into the whole of the text, including the original Hebrew/Greek, rather than proof-texting. I would suggest you begin with a word study of shebet and na'ar in the book of Proverbs.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

The Bible says to discipline - it does not say *how.* It doesn't say to spank - if someone is going to take "the rod" verses literally, then they must beat their offspring with an inch-thick stick on their backs, as the directions for fools and slaves were given.

I started out thinking I would spank, since that's the way both my dh and I were raised, and I thought it was the "Biblical" way to discipline since that's what Christian *culture* (NOT the Bible) had taught me. Fortunately I joined a group for Christian AP mothers that taught me gentle discipline ways and how the Bible teaches that we are to discipline/disciple our children. Some choose to spank to do that...so be it. But it's not the more or only "Biblical" way.

I am glad the OP is looking into more gentle methods. I'm not a perfect parent by any means, but I treat my children with grace and correction, as my Saviour treats me.


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## tempestjewel (Apr 18, 2005)

I have a couple more links I like, that I don't think have been listed yet.

First, for practical skills for parenting, I love: http://goybparenting.com/ and she has some resources for Christian parents as well.

For a detailed, theological discussion, I like: http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/ It is a very linear, analytical discussion (which my brain holds onto well). There is also a link to Samuel Martin's book that discusses Proverbs which is an excellent read (and free to download in PDF).

Sometimes it is just comforting to know you are not alone in wanting to be gentle and a Christian in your parenting. There are many of us that are lead to be the same thing, and it is awesome that you are beginning this journey


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## genifer (Feb 19, 2006)

Quote:

The Bible says to discipline
Now, Ive not gone and done one of those fancy indepth word search where you tease out the meaning of the words in scripture from the original greek/hebrew... but I do know that the word discipline comes from the word 'disciple' or vice versa... To Disciple my children means that I am setting the example... when I make a mistake, I sincerely apologise, when I learn something new, I teach it to them, I am talking about spiritual matters as well as all the other matters that come up in parenting. When I see them doing something that is wrong or seems wrong, Ill take them to the side (mine are 10yo twin girls and an 8yo boy) and teach then the correct way of ...behaving, speaking, thinking. I could give SO MANY examples of how Ive disciplined... or discipled... my kids like this... And whats more is that every child is different, and every. single. situation or circumstance that needs 'correction'... is different, and I deal with them all differently, with patience... Im not perfect, admittedly, Im sat here, semi-ignoring them right now!! LOL. However, I do strive to parent in this way.

Fwiw, I had the same sort of epiphany moment the op had when she began to pray about this issue... It went like this.

I was very frustrated with my kids, mostly bc they wouldnt clean up or do what I was asking them to do at that given moment. I said to them 'Right, go get the spatula'... and I did do what I am ashamed to admit right now. My dd was so upset, not so much from the pain, but from the humiliation and exasperation of it all... it wasnt just the spanking that was wrong in my parenting at that time. It hit me that something wasnt right, I personally was driven by anger at that time. I heard the Holy Spirit wisper 'Gen, do I treat you like that?'... and the answer was 'No, Im sorry Lord, I just dont know how to do this'... and let Him teach me. Patience and waiting to respond to different things that need disciplining is so important to me now. I used to shout a lot, but I dont anymore. I mean, I lose it some times but as a practice ... I strive to be better then that. We use some losing of priveleges for different things, sometimes we just talk about it. For things like lying, I dont think its bad to let the child know they let you down, that you are disappointed in their lying, letting it sink in, forgiving and letting them know I do expect more from them. Anyway, this is a good topic, whether it belongs here or in the other place, gentle discipline, if it were there Id not have found it, bc I dont go there.

Now, for your son hitting others here is what *I* would do. My son has done this. On one occassion I was just so shocked I just reacted and swiftly led him out of the room and dealt with it by telling him that what he did was wrong. He was only about 5 at the time, but I had to figure out why he had behaved like that towards another lad his age. Thats how I dealt with it, questioning why he behaved like that, then talking to all my children about how the best way to respond when we are angry. If its something that Ive got my wits about me when it occurs Id get down on his level, eye level and say speak very clearly and calmly, but very sternly that what he has done is unexceptable, hitting others is not right. For me its the firmness, sternness in my voice that tell my kids that I know what Im talking about.

got to go now... ttfn
gen


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Moving to Gentle Discipline...


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

*Aimee*, wow, it's amazing what God will whisper to our hearts when we are listening! I will be praying for you, for your family and for your friends. I just posted something similar because we are dealing with this as well, from friends of dh's. Aside from the other websites, I would highly highly recommend Pastor Luttons site, http://aolff.com/. It has been immensely helpful for me.


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

Ohh mama I cried reading your post. Children are a gift from God they need to be treated as one. I am so proud that you see this and are standing up for those little girls in a peaceful way. I am Christian (raised Catholic) I was spanked and what not but I will not spank Ds I am not saying I never had only twice once he pulled our kitty by the tail from one room to the other and another was a reflex and I bawled my eyes out he clamped on to my nipple so hard! no one is perfect please do not beat yourself up about having spanked your Dc you know better and now you want to do better that is what is important. I will pray for those little girls and have my church pray also if that is okay if not let me know







I hope that you will soon see a better bond with your Dc a bond you never knew before I ended up with a deeper one when I desided to switch the way I talked and interacted with Ds. Your whole family will be better for it! Not that it will be easy to change!!!!

I use GD with him when he does wrong I sit and talk about it he gets a number of chances and if he does not listen he sits with me or if he wants he sit alone. He is a sensitive child and this is what works for us.

By the way what is switching???? if already answered Sorry I did not read the replies yet


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Also from Scripture:
Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul.
~ Proverbs 29:17

"Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me."
~ Matthew 25:40

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
~ Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
~ Colossians 3:21

"But we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children." 1 Thessalonians 2:7
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:12

"What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip (KJV says rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?" 1 Corinthians 4:21

This link
has more about the rod.

Those are beautiful tears yet again reading this thread! I must be truely hormonal today


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Thank you for doing this for your child. (hugs) Takes a very big person with a very big heart to admit the truth about spanking and change their ways. You and your family will heal from this - what you are doing is amazing and not many people are willing to face the facts that lead to change when it comes to this subject. Instead of manipulating Gods word to suit your current life style, you opened your heart to hear His _truth_. I wish more Christians would follow in the footsteps of the Lord as you are now.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Aimee** 
... when they got to the store he wanted to sit on a bench. DH told him that he knew he wanted to sit there, but they needed to hurry so they could get back home because it was late. DS started screaming and lay flat on the floor!! He's never done this. So DH brought him back home and then left. I told him that because he couldn't follow Daddy's rules for the store he had to sit with me at home so Daddy could finish his shopping.

Hi Aimee,
Welcome to GD.







: I'm so happy for you and the rest of your family that you had this epiphany. We are Christian, and I honestly can't understand the position that Christian parenting requires spanking. Hitting a child is not Christ-like. Anyway, I think you've gotten tons of great scriptural references.

Your story about your 2 yr old having a tantrum because your dh wouldn't let him sit on a bench sounded really familiar. You were right on when you wrote that he was being really 2. My dd is a couple of weeks older than your son, and would have responded the same way. One thing I've sort of figured out in the last 5 yrs is that a lot of our discipline 'problems' are really age-appropriate behavior that happens to be inconvenient for us.









We do a lot of compromises at my house. Like, 10-12 per day. In that situation, your dh's best bet would likely have been to to say "okay, but just for 2 minutes." Would have been a lot quicker than running him home, and a lot less traumatic. I have been there myself many times, and as they say, hindsight is 20/20. But my point is, flexibility is pretty critical to gd, and it takes a huge shift in thinking. My inlaws do not get it. Most people don't get it. But no child will go along with what a parent wants all the time, and it really is better to say 'yes' whenever possible.

I subscribed to a daily parenting email message called The Daily Groove. It's been great. Full of great little ideas to stay connected to your dc and keep the faith that you're doing the right thing by using gd.

Good luck mama, and congratulations on stopping spanking.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Just wanted to agree with the awesome posts here, and to give you lots of hugs. Grace is for mamas, too! I am always delighted to hear another parent who is learning more about GBD.

You've gotten such great stuff already, I just wanted to remind you that in the day to day stuff as new situations arise, you have a support network here who will happily help you brainstorm new approaches.

Much love to you!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Two quick thoughts:

Your son probably WILL act up more for a little bit because he's trying to figure out the new system. And he's 2. But if you can get through this, you'll have a child who really listens and not one who reacts out of fear.

My second thought is that your friends aren't just spanking their children. They are abusing them. I know that there are people here who claim that all spanking = abuse. I would argue that all spanking is harmful, but there is a difference between spanking and abuse -- and I think that your approach vs. your friends' approach illustrates the difference. You spanked your child occasionally. Your friends are switching their child 15 times in one evening and she screamed so loudly that everyone could hear? I would strongly consider doing more than praying for those children. They may need someone to intervene.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

nak

My ds responds very well to short sentences explaining to him what's going on. He frowns and glares and is obviously thinking about what I'm saying, and almost always does what I ask afterwards, even if he was staunchly opposed beforehand.

An example:
He wanted me to hold him and was super fussy at supper time. I got down right in front of him and said...

"(his name) wants mama to hold (his name). (..) is hungry. (..'s) belly hurts. (..) needs supper. mama will make supper for (..). mama needs two hands to make supper for (..). mama cannot hold (..) while she makes supper. (..) can play while mama makes supper. Then (..) can eat and he will feel better. Okay? (..) play trucks while mama makes supper?"

and I hand him a truck, and a slice of cheese or something.
And the hungry little boy went to play trucks. This doesn't always work, but nearly always, especially if I take the time to explain BEFORE he gets worked up.

My little guy (just turned 2) can be a real spitfire. He just can get SO mad. I've had a lot of success with sending him away from me. It was hard to try that because I strongly feel children should be with their mothers. It seemed wrong to me to send him away just when he needed guidence the most. But, it really has worked for us. He just gets more upset if I try to hold him/help him when he's really mad.

I take his hand and lead him to his bed (which is very low). I put him on his bed and say, "(..) must talk nice to Mama. Everyone has to talk nice. You may come out when you will talk nice to Mama." If he comes out yelling, I turn around and gently take his hand and put him back on his bed. "Oh...(..) is not talking nice to Mama. Mama wants to help (..), but (..) must talk nice. You may come out when you are ready to talk nice." He might throw a fit in there, but I ignore it. I do return him to his bed every time he comes out yelling. (By the way, if he starts yelling at me and stops when I pick him up and head to his bed I still go all the way to his bed. If I have to get up, we're going all the way and he can come right back out, but I do want to be very clear with him that it is not okay to not be nice to Mama. I don't say "mean to Mama" because I don't want him to think that HE is mean. I prefer to speak in positives anyway. "Do this", not "Don't do that.") Anyway, within just a few days I am able to say "(..) is not talking nice to Mama. Will (..) talk nice to mama? Or will he need to go sit on his bed?" And almost every time he will change his tone and "talk nice"

I would have taken him home over the bench thing, too. Not because I never change my mind about things, but because I never allow ugliness. The issue to me is NOT that he didn't obey, but that he was ugly about it. So, if you can't "talk nice to Daddy", then you can't go until we can trust you to "do the right thing". "Sorry you're sad, but everybody has to talk nice. Maybe you can try again tomorrow when Daddy needs to go to the post office."

YMMV


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

As for your friends, I wouldn't argue to spank or not to spank. I'd approach it differently.

I'd talk about how I realized I was spending a lot of time telling them what not to do, and not very much about what TO do. DH and I often talk about the sweetness of thier hearts and their desire to please us. Our children are not rebels, they are just unknowing. The more time I spend telling them what TO do (and not necessarily to correct them, just in general conversation), the less I have to spend in correction. If your friends are spanking the "bad" behavior out, but not filling in the gap with what TO do, all they have done is leave a void. That void reminds me of the parable of when the man was possessed with demons and then they were sent out and the man didn't nothing to fill the space. So the demon returned and finding everything swept and in order brought his friends, too. We have to replace the negative with the postive.

Suggest saying things like, "We are going to so and so's house. Their little boy likes to give hugs. It would be nice of you to hug him back. You might be scared because he runs so fast to the door. Mama will be with you, so you will be safe. If you don't want to hug, you may say, "no, thank you". That's a nice way to tell him you don't want a hug quite yet.

Mrs. Whatever is going to make supper. If I find something on my plate that I don't think I'll like, I'll probably try a tiny taste anyway. If I don't like it, i just won't eat it. I won't push it around my plate or anything, and i won't say I don't think it tastes good. I wouldn't want to make Mrs. Whatever sad. She worked so hard to make a yummy supper for us.

After supper we are going to the park. What would be a nice thing to do for so and so at the park? You know what? There are only 2 little swings. We live right next door tp the park, so let's let so and so swing this time.

Etc."

I prep them for what we're doing all the time, so they know ahead of time how they can repsond in various situations.


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

I didn' t read the whole thread, but is it legal to treat children like that? If it is, it shouldn't be. To me that sounds like real abuse and I would consider getting the CPA involved. Those kids deserve better.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, thank you so much for all the wonderful responses. I was sooooo scared of admitting I spanked on MDC









Tonight we had dinner with our friends and played at their house with their puppies. I explained what I was going through with my son and what I noticed about his behavior and how it's changed. We debated bible verses for a while and I think it got them thinking. There were no spankings tonight, so that was good news.

My son is doing so much better. There were a few incidences tonight where I was super worried about how he was acting (running with a giant stick and trying to hit the girls with it, total boy fun, I know







) but he responded SO well to my talking and explaining to him why it wasn't okay that I was shocked.

I think the hardest part to get over is feeling like I need to punish him. I'm just trying to say to myself over and over, not punish!! guide and teach!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunShineSally* 

By the way what is switching???? if already answered Sorry I did not read the replies yet









switching is hitting with a switch.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Mama, good for you and your DH (and DS!). It's so awesome to see people really think about these cultural norms (because really, hitting has nothing to do with Christ) and question them.

Here's a link to a thread about Virtues Parenting that I found really interesting and thought-provoking: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tues+parenting

As for your friends, I think you can explain a bit at first, share some Scripture. Then, if for whatever reason that doesn't do the trick, keep it short and simple>

"We're trying to teach by example. Pass the bean dip!"

As for your DS acting up: normal, normal, normal for a 2 year old. And I totally agree with a PP about compromising. Before you say "no" to something out of hand, think really hard about why you are saying no, and if that no is really necessary. If it isn't there's probably room to compromise.

Good luck!!!


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## mrsjtc (Dec 23, 2008)

Can I jump in here and ask a question? (Aimee, I hope you don't mind! )

I'm very much in the same boat as the OP. We've struggled with the angry side of spanking for some time now and have stopped. Our church is VERY pro- Pearl, Shepherding a Child's Heart, etc. But I've never understood how you separate anger from corporal punishment. I know when I felt angry, spanking felt so wrong. I couldn't do it any longer. So this thread is a God send.

My question is do you expect obedience? When I ask my children to do something, I expect that they'll respond so I know they heard me and then go and do _______. (their chores, get dressed, school work, etc.) If not, why is it wrong to expect obedience from them? We often explain that we all have to answer to someone (spouses, boss, God!) and listening to mommy is practice for the rest of their lives. I try to explain to them often that we all have jobs in our home to keep it running smoothly, etc. and that they need to be helpful and not lazy. If you don't expect obedience, how do you get them to respond or do chores?

And does anyone know how to get onto the Gentle Christian Mothers message board? It keeps telling me registration is closed. Thanks!


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

mrsjtc, I am probably not the right person to answer your question, because while I am a Christian, I am not of the evangelical or Protestant kind







. However, I'll answer your question anyway!

To me obedience is reserved for God. I would not ever want to teach my child to be obedient to all adults, as I feel strongly that we human beings are imperfect and fallible, and telling my child to be obedient to everyone is setting him up for some serious problems with critical thinking, not to mention putting him at risk for abuse of all sorts.

That said-- when I ask my child or my husband to do something I expect *respect*: i.e. an answer to my question. I expect *helpfulness* and I expect *conscientiousness*: these are virtues that I want to instill in my children!

Once again, I encourage you to go look up the thread about Virtues parenting. It really helped me think about how to be more precise in my definitions of what virtues are, which helps me implement them.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

Anyone can get obedient children.. who will later on have many mental issues. (I have a dh who has gone through this... and is still healing.)

TBH, I do not consider these types of people Christians. I consider them people who cling to some Christian ideas but are mostly rather lost. If your religion tells you to hit your child, there is something wrong. I do not, for a moment, believe that Mary ever hit Jesus. Neither do I believe that these parents never hit "innocent" children (in case anyone would say Jesus did not "need" to be hit). Once you down that path you also let loose your own temper.

Some Christians (at least Catholics) teach that a child under 7 or so is still under the age of reason. IOW, not completely able to understand things and control himself. To me this seems much more truthful... Our dd often makes bad dedisions due to her weakness, due to living in the moment, due to trying out something new, etc.... because she is a child.

We are getting closer and closer to no discipline. It demands a lot of the parent to be a couple of steps ahead of the child and his moods, to be playful, etc. But not only does it help the child to be happy and healthy, it also helps greatly with having a child who is great fun to be with and who, IMO, is one of the best behaved kids of her age we know.


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## mrsjtc (Dec 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
To me obedience is reserved for God. I would not ever want to teach my child to be obedient to all adults, as I feel strongly that we human beings are imperfect and fallible, and telling my child to be obedient to everyone is setting him up for some serious problems with critical thinking, not to mention putting him at risk for abuse of all sorts.

But it says in Colossians 3:20 - Children obey your parents in everything for this pleases the Lord.

So isn't some level of obedience good and right? I think first time obedience from a young child is excessive. But a response, an explanation and completing the task at hand is something that i wise for a child to learn.

Maybe I'm some weird morph of obedience training and grace-based parenting


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Aimee, the friends you mentioned don't sound like spankers but abusers.







I was spanked, and taught obedience. But nothing remotely like that.







:

OTOH, you might pass by my house and hear my 3 yo screaming like I was cutting off his toes







, but it _wouldn't_ be because he was being beaten. I always get a little nervous when people talk about *hearing* children screaming because really we honestly don't know what is going on there. Both of my oldest have been screamers.

All of the devout Christian parents I know parent lovingly and kindly. Some may spank, I don't know. But what I see when we get together is beautiful. I would say my River Brethren friend, who is the strictest in requiring obedience, is also the calmest, quietest, and the gentlest. Her family of origin is like that, her husband is like that, and her kids are growing up like that. It's quite amazing. I have never seen her spank or heard her raise or voice (nor anyone else in their church, they take "being the quiet in the land" very seriously).


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsjtc* 
But it says in Colossians 3:20 - Children obey your parents in everything for this pleases the Lord.

So isn't some level of obedience good and right? I think first time obedience from a young child is excessive. But a response, an explanation and completing the task at hand is something that i wise for a child to learn.

Maybe I'm some weird morph of obedience training and grace-based parenting









That's why I said I probably wasn't the right person to answer your question!









Parents can be horrible and do very wrong things, in general, and to their children. They are human and fallible.

So I prefer to think that the spirit of that commandment is that children owe their parents respect, consideration, helpfulness, etc. But maybe I'm a Scripture-interpreting weirdo, lol!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsjtc* 
But it says in Colossians 3:20 - Children obey your parents in everything for this pleases the Lord.

So isn't some level of obedience good and right? I think first time obedience from a young child is excessive. But a response, an explanation and completing the task at hand is something that i wise for a child to learn.

Maybe I'm some weird morph of obedience training and grace-based parenting









Yes, it says "CHILDREN obey your parents" not "PARENTS make your children obey" It is God's direction for them, so if they are to do that they are choosing to be obedient to God - this is different then teaching children to just flat out be obedient to all adults, which is dangerous as the previous posted pointed out for several reasons.

For me though, the goal is not to make my children obey. That is their responsibility to God to choose to obey. My responsibility to God is to guide my children, not *make* them obey, but to create an environment in which it is safe for them to be compliant (so that they can more easily obey God's direction to do so) There are parents who have told their children to kill. Would God want them to be obedient then? Of course not. This blind obedience that some people seek because of that scripture is not a Godly outlook. We are not to force them to obey, they are free to choose to obey. Our obedience belongs to God, as does their own. If they are obeying us because the word says for them to obey us it is still them showing obedience to God. This is all a choice *self* makes for *self* (I decide for me, my children decide for themselves - Ultimately they answer to God, not me.) The problem is when parents take on the role of God, as if they are the substitute teacher instead of a vessel for Him.

You can discipline your children because the bible says to discipline, but not to discipline because the bible tells your children to obey. That is _their_ responsibility to the Lord.

I do not require my children obey me. The Lord requires they do. I just make it possible for them to choose to safely follow His Word.

It is not that we *must* make *obedient* children. It's that God tells our CHILDREN to be obedient, and tells us to provide discipline (guidance - to teach). I don't think the Bible is suggesting we demand obedience from our children or *expect* it. I do expect my children to do well, because I know they intend to do well, and when they are having a hard time doing well I look at what is "blocking" them from doing well, because I trust that when everything is right with them they will do right things. I don't expect it in the sense of I expect them to do whatever I say and if they don't I will make them because I must make them obey.

ONE of THEIR responsibilities if they follow a Christian path is to be obedient to their parents. As a parent, it is not my responsibility to force this obedience, only to discipline them and make it safe for them to follow that path if they choose.


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Aimee** 
switching is hitting with a switch.


That is horrible! also scary







: I would call CPS and I do not say that lightly as I know good desent loving parents who had to fight for their babies! Please protect them as best you can! I know many believe that it is not our place to interviene on parenting styles but when children suffer and will suffer their whole lives them we as good people must do all we can to protect them!

I am happy that starting GDing is going so well. The hardest part for me is figureing out if what he is doing is age appropreate or just not listening mostly it is age appropreate I get lots of slack from family for not spanking my whole family did it my step mother and my father got at me once and after awhile of explaining why I don't I just said point blank he is MY son and I will NOT instil frear in him I WILL instil love and grace and the ability to know right from wrong and not FEAR if he choses wrong once in awhlie. Now this arguement happened on a day he was crazy and they felt they had a point most of the time he is not crazy but he is happy and a child and they are not used to that I also looked at my father and said I was spanked I even had the belt at times did it help you and my Mom out?? No it didn't! I am happy that you were able to make a point on a day that your Dc was behaving the way you want him to







I hope it all works out for you family!!!!!!!!!!

Again please think long and hard about protecting those little ones that have no one to stand up for them


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## mrsjtc (Dec 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
Yes, it says "CHILDREN obey your parents" not "PARENTS make your children obey" It is God's direction for them, so if they are to do that they are choosing to be obedient to God - this is different then teaching children to just flat out be obedient to all adults, which is dangerous as the previous posted pointed out for several reasons.

For me though, the goal is not to make my children obey. That is their responsibility to God to choose to obey. My responsibility to God is to guide my children, not *make* them obey, but to create an environment in which it is safe for them to be compliant (so that they can more easily obey God's direction to do so) There are parents who have told their children to kill. Would God want them to be obedient then? Of course not. This blind obedience that some people seek because of that scripture is not a Godly outlook. We are not to force them to obey, they are free to choose to obey. Our obedience belongs to God, as does their own. If they are obeying us because the word says for them to obey us it is still them showing obedience to God. This is all a choice *self* makes for *self* (I decide for me, my children decide for themselves - Ultimately they answer to God, not me.) The problem is when parents take on the role of God, as if they are the substitute teacher instead of a vessel for Him.

You can discipline your children because the bible says to discipline, but not to discipline because the bible tells your children to obey. That is _their_ responsibility to the Lord.

I do not require my children obey me. The Lord requires they do. I just make it possible for them to choose to safely follow His Word.

It is not that we *must* make *obedient* children. It's that God tells our CHILDREN to be obedient, and tells us to provide discipline (guidance - to teach). I don't think the Bible is suggesting we demand obedience from our children or *expect* it. I do expect my children to do well, because I know they intend to do well, and when they are having a hard time doing well I look at what is "blocking" them from doing well, because I trust that when everything is right with them they will do right things. I don't expect it in the sense of I expect them to do whatever I say and if they don't I will make them because I must make them obey.

ONE of THEIR responsibilities if they follow a Christian path is to be obedient to their parents. As a parent, it is not my responsibility to force this obedience, only to discipline them and make it safe for them to follow that path if they choose.

Really great thoughts. I need to chew on this awhile. I think that I very much agree.

Oh and I wholeheartedly agree with the dangers of blind obedience. _Any_ adult - no way. Being aware, respectful and compliant to adults who are responsible for you - I think that's good. I think compliant is a word I need to enter into our vocabulary. Doing what is expected of you in your environment - helpful, kind, gentle. Those are the words that come to mind when I think of compliance. Good stuff.

So discipline. (I'm not sure this is the are for a discussion on discipline. Sorry if I'm breaking a rule.) Is it more of a cause and effect discipline rather than a punishment? ie: If you are smart-mouthed and disrespectful, I cannot reward you with a special evening out. Rewards are for children who are demonstrating good character, kindness, etc. Is that how it goes? Throw a toy, it gets taken away kind of stuff rather than do as I say or I will ________ (spank, time out, yell, etc.)

Thanks Aimee for starting this thread. It is really blessing and challenging me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my grandfather was responsible for my sister. He also molested her. I hope for my children to treat everyone respectfully - but I also don't expect them to want to be respectful towards people who are not respectful towards them. Age and Status do not entitle a person to respect.

Discipline means different things to different people. So does punishment. So there isn't really a black and white answer to that. Our family though does not use spanking, time outs, or yelling. We don't "do to" our children either. We work with them. We treat our children the way Jesus treated his disciples and others.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

SuperGlueMommy, that was a beautiful response on obedience. I think I need to just start following you around with an ITA sign.









On the questions regarding cause and effect and discipline, there are a lot of different viewpoints. Personally, we don't rely on rewards or punishments. Instead, we try to be proactive and then give lots of practice. So in the scenario you mentioned, we'd really work on modeling respectful speech, giving them practice and letting them redo it, and so on instead of taking away an evening out. Also, I feel like when kids are acting up, they need more time with us to reconnect rather than time away (unless either of us just needs to cool off).

If a toy is being misused, then I think taking it away is reasonable, simply to keep everyone safe.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

We are Catholic and faithfully practice we don't spank or really punish at all minus the occasional very modified time outs. I believe grace is there for all including our children and we as the parents are to help teach and guide and through patience forgivness a healthy teaching of humility and most of all grace we will guide our children. Spanking humilitation (which greatly differs from being humbled) degrading and shame are not in Gods design and wont be in our home... Sayingthat I have spanked I was brought up as a spanker and old ways can be hard but I grow stronger and better and the more I grow in my faith the more I am totaly convinced its wrong.

Deanna


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsjtc* 
But it says in Colossians 3:20 - Children obey your parents in everything for this pleases the Lord.

This verse is not directed at parents. It's directed at children.







It does not read "parents, make your child obey." I fully believe that with gentle discipline, a child will _want_ to do as her parent asks. Gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsjtc* 
So discipline. (I'm not sure this is the are for a discussion on discipline. Sorry if I'm breaking a rule.) Is it more of a cause and effect discipline rather than a punishment? ie: If you are smart-mouthed and disrespectful, I cannot reward you with a special evening out. Rewards are for children who are demonstrating good character, kindness, etc. Is that how it goes? Throw a toy, it gets taken away kind of stuff rather than do as I say or I will ________ (spank, time out, yell, etc.)

Some people do use what you're describing. I do, but I wouldn't call those times my proudest parenting moments. Children learn by example. Treating them with kindness, empathy, gentleness, and respect encourages those qualities. I don't believe punishment, or withholding rewards, does that. I don't believe offering rewards for good behavior is effective either. I hope that my dc will exhibit the virtues we believe because it feels natural and good to them, not because there's a gift in it.


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## sothisislove (Jun 29, 2007)

Aimee..thank you for sharing your heart.

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Aimee** 
Thank you so much for the kind responses. I really appreciate them.

My friends except me to spank Ru when he hurts one of their children. So we're going to explain to them that God has led me to not spank. I would love some bible versus to help me explain my thoughts, so I'm going to get to googling.

It sounds like you may have visited gentlechristianmothers.com They have a sticky that addresses the 'spare the rod' verse and it's misinterpretation.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

The Bible does not specifically say, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" but there is a verse in Proverbs 23:13-14 that says, "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death."

This seems very straightforward but I'm wondering if anyone knows what the original meaning of the word "spank" in this context is.


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my3peanuts* 
The Bible does not specifically say, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" but there is a verse in Proverbs 23:13-14 that says, "Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death."

This seems very straightforward but I'm wondering if anyone knows what the original meaning of the word "spank" in this context is.


it doesn't say that in my bible. It says
13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Based on the other passages dealing with the rod I can't be positive that verse is dealing with an actual rod we are beating our children with


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my3peanuts* 
This seems very straightforward but I'm wondering if anyone knows what the original meaning of the word "spank" in this context is.

Well, it's not "spank" at all - it's "nakah" = "beat."

Here's an explanation:

http://aolff.com/spare-the-rod/proverbs2


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiyank* 
Well, it's not "spank" at all - it's "nakah" = "beat."

Here's an explanation:

http://aolff.com/spare-the-rod/proverbs2

Thanks, I will look into that site.

Just to be clear I am not justifying spanking using this verse. I just would like to have a good understanding of its meaning when I'm debating things like this with my family who are all very pro-spanking and also assume you must spank if you're truly following God's instruction.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Sure - no problem. There's lots of information on that site - hope it helps.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I will, just wanted to respond to the OP's initial post.

I would consider myself a Christian. I love GOd and Jesus and follow Jesus' teachings the best I can and I don't think Jesus would ever have condoned spanking, he was a loving, gentle person and taught that we should be _more like children_, not spank the badness out of them!

I am SO glad that you prayed about this and I am not at all surprised by the response you got! Praise Jesus! Today is a new day and you have the rest of your lifetime! Atleast you are convicted in your beliefs now, and you have the favor of God behind your decision!

It will never cease to amaze me the ways religious people will find to pervert the message of GOD!

I grew up Southern Baptist, my mom is a reverend as is my dad and I don't remember anything about spanking, it was a non-issue my whole life, but maybe that was just because that was not what they were into? I have heard a lot about Christians and spanking as an adult, though.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
To me obedience is reserved for God. I would not ever want to teach my child to be obedient to all adults, as I feel strongly that we human beings are imperfect and fallible, and telling my child to be obedient to everyone is setting him up for some serious problems with critical thinking, not to mention putting him at risk for abuse of all sorts.

That said-- when I ask my child or my husband to do something I expect *respect*: i.e. an answer to my question. I expect *helpfulness* and I expect *conscientiousness*: these are virtues that I want to instill in my children!

I LOVE this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
Yes, it says "CHILDREN obey your parents" not "PARENTS make your children obey" It is God's direction for them, so if they are to do that they are choosing to be obedient to God - this is different then teaching children to just flat out be obedient to all adults, which is dangerous as the previous posted pointed out for several reasons.

<snip>

We are not to force them to obey, they are free to choose to obey. Our obedience belongs to God, as does their own. If they are obeying us because the word says for them to obey us it is still them showing obedience to God. This is all a choice *self* makes for *self* (I decide for me, my children decide for themselves - Ultimately they answer to God, not me.) The problem is when parents take on the role of God, as if they are the substitute teacher instead of a vessel for Him.

And I LOVE, *LOVE* this.

Even though I no longer am a practicing Christian, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread as it has progressed.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm not a Christian, but I am so glad to see this thread. We received a terrifying book from our Fundy Christian BIL called _Premeditated Parenting_ (what a title!) that had me fearing for Christian children everywhere.

It's good to know that there are GD Christian options out there. I am tempted to send BIL some links, but I know they would be offended. They have three girls, 10,12 and 14 years old.


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Aimee** 

My friends except me to spank Ru when he hurts one of their children. So we're going to explain to them that God has led me to not spank.

I know you've already had some discussions with your friends, but I wanted to add another thought. We believe that discipline should be done in private (I work in a group home, so we discipline every day, HA!). In this situation that you are in, I would remove Ru from the room and tell everyone with a smile, that you need to deal with this and you'll return in a few minutes. Go somewhere private and deal with it, however you decide. Then when he's happy and ready to play again, come back into the room.

They don't need to know how you disciplined him . . . it's better for kids not to get sidetracked from what they did wrong, by being embarrassed and it will save you having to explain yourself to others.

We are raising our DD in a group environment (8 group homes on a campus) and all the other staff have young children. And I think they ALL believe in spanking to the point of if I mentioned that we're not going to, they would think that we're going to ruin our daughter. The way we'll avoid most of the conversations is by disciplining in private- something we'd do even IF we were spanking, kwim?

Anyway, thanks for sharing your post! These threads always help me solidify why I believe what I do and how to stand up to others if necessary, about it!


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Thank you for posting this. I haven't read the whole thing, but am crying. I am a christian and all of our friends use the child training method and spanking as a first resort.









I was sucked in.







Its hard because their children are so well behaved and my daughter is spirited to say the least







I know they think its because I don't spank her (they don't know about the few times I did)...but I felt really bad after she flinched when I walked towards her







: I hope its ok that I say all of this and it doesn't go against mdc code...

anyways, I am struggeling. I am reading Grace Based Parenting right now and I really really like it. But I still struggle with the "only way to have godly children is to spank" theory. *sigh* I'll be back tomorrow.

Danielle


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Danielle


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

(((Danielle))) It is a hard thing to get past - our culture as Christians is totally ingrained with having to punish, which is really illogical if you think our entire identity as Christians is b/c *Jesus* took all the punishment for us on the cross! But then we turn around and say we must punish our children b/c otherwise they won't learn to obey God? Huh!? *We* can have freedom from our sins through Christ but our children can't?

I still tend to be naturally punitive, even after 7 yrs. of GD. It's ingrained in me and it's hard to overcome - but the good news is it becomes easier and easier to discipline with grace when you have a whole bunch of new tools at your disposal. My first reaction is rarely punitive anymore b/c I have other ways to deal with behaviour. Also, to be honest, the biggest change has been in *me* - I really never understood the concept of grace until I extended it to my children.









Please check out the links for Gentle Christian Mothers (especially the GD and GD FAQs boards - and please don't be discouraged by the fact that there's lots of questions about behaviour - remember, the people posting are the ones struggling and having problems, so don't think, "Whoa, those ladies all have out-of-control children," b/c it's not representative, it's a place for helping) and the articles at AOLFF.


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## sbrinton (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm struggling with this issue top. I am a Christian. Our family attends a church where many families do spank. My husband believes strongly that it is the right thing to do and we have disciplined our children with spanking.

But I really want to change. Although I've gone along with what everyone around me has said is "right" it never felt right. Increasingly I believe the "rod" should be a parent's guidance, wisdom, instruction, protection, boundaries - I think sometimes correction does involve consequences. But I've never understood how I can on one hand explain to my son that God loves him and does not punish his sin because of Jesus...and then use my other hand to...how does that teach him about God's grace? Isn't it better to walk him through confessing his sin, asking for forgiveness, reconciling with whomever he hurt, making restitution if he damaged something?

I brought this up with my husband tonight and he does not understand where I am at. I want to respect him, but I don't think it is right to continue to hurt our boys. I know that I am going to change. I will stop spanking my sons and hopefully my husband will come around.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

The most important thing I can think to say right now is that these people are teaching their children to betray themselves. They are teaching that their children's emotions not only do not count, but are wrong. That sets them up for some dangerous territory as they get older because they will not trust themselves to make decisions and they will probably be easily influenced by others. We won't even talk about a total lack of self-esteem. That brings on so many problems b/c it's really the foundation for happiness.

How does it make sense to switch a child for not having a joyful heart? I'll beat you to force you to be happy. It's absolute insanity and they are doing SO MUCH psychological damage with this "Pearl" method.

Thank God you see it as wrong and are looking for alternatives. I say follow your heart, like you've been doing. Keep reading and asking questions and do not let someone talk you into something that goes against your basic instincts in the name of God. God gave you instinct and an emotional connection (attachment) to your children for a reason. There is no one formula or one right method to raising a healthy child.

I don't think I could be around these people without saying something. I'd do research first so you have facts to back up your "opinion." Make sure you have some Christian based gentler discipline sources too, b/c they may disregard any secular information.

Good luck!


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