# What all is Non-negotiable?



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I would think that if something were *truly* Non-negotiable, we could all agree on it. Besides making a child get into a stroller to go for a walk







what else does *everyone* agree is "non-negotiable" and Must be forced against a child's will if they don't agree/consent/comply/obey? _Besides that which is truly Life Threatening_.

Btw, there was a study done of the same nature. Amazingly, not *everyone* could agree that some of the most common activities forced on children were "non-negotiable", so perhaps the actions forced on children are *"selectively non-negotiable"*. http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c...cs_survey_1997

Obviously, wearing diapers is not universally non-negotiable _even on this forum_, "having to" get into the carseat and go somewhere is not universally non-negotiable, shampooing hair is not universally non-negotiable; vaccination is not universally non-negotiable; going to school/daycare is not universally non-negotiable; going to the dentist is not universally non-negotiable; brushing teeth, taking a bath, eating vegetables, eating what is served at dinner or going to bed without, bedtimes, leaving the park, timeouts, saying thank you, going to church, going to the grocery store, sitting at the dinner table, etc.

So, what activities do you feel comfortable forcing your child to do against their will because they are *truly* non-negotiable? I am wondering if perhaps we could agree on what is truly non-negotiable; or is the use of coercion and force just a subjective *unwillness* to consider/continue negotiating for the sake of expediency? (ie. force is _justified_ because 'I am in a hurry ("it is time to do xyz") and I don't want to deal with negotiating about this any longer in a more cooperative/respectful fashion'.) Or is it the lack of negotiation skills or lack of communication tools? Or is it just a commonly held belief that one has a right to decide to force others to do what one wants "for their own good", because she is the parent?

I honestly do not understand the paradox. We instruct our children not to use force to get their way. But....many adults model the use of force to get their way. How can our children learn from the inconsistency of our words from our actions? The Center for Non-violent Communications has many communication tools for more effective conflict resolution. See www.CNVC.org.

However, I believe there *is a mutually agreeable alternative* available which can be found that respects the child's body space integrity instead. Perhaps, we could continue to seek those together instead of advocating the default to force, except perhaps when it is *truly* and universally necessary due to a life threatening event. When is that?

Pat


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Well, one of the key phrases in our house is Safety Rules are Non-Negotiable. And everything else is.







Seriously. If it's a safety rule, it is never going to be negotiated. You either hold my hand crossing the parking lot, or you will get carried. It is your choice. You will ride in your carseat. You will not touch sharp knives (which, obviously are kept out of reach, but when they are helping prepare dinner). I will run your bathwater to ensure a safe temperature. Anything that threatens their being, or someone elses' is a safety rule.

But anything else, negotiable. Diapers? Negotiable....which, honestly is why I think my girls potty learned before they were two. Dessert before dinner? negotiable. Eating on the floor like a picnic. Fun!

But we find mutually agreeable alternatives on a daily basis.







When I want to do______ and they want to do _________, we compromise. I want to go to the store, like this morning, but dd wanted to dally over her breakfast.







We had to get to the store, and she had dance, and ds had a dr appt, so it couldn't wait until later. So we brought her pancakes with us, and she ate them like a sandwich.







Hey, whatever works. She didn't go hungry, I got more food for us, and there was no meltdown.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Well, I have one for you. My son is diabetic. Most of the time he is very accepting of his blood sugar tests, but lately he's been saying no. We've tried waiting, offerring different sites, and doing mommy's at the same time, but sometimes it's still no. Eventually we have to do it anyway, and we do it as quickly and gently as possible. This is not usually a "life-threatening" issue, but the impact on his health is immediate and significant. Any suggestions on this? I know it's not a common activity by any means, but it's important to us and I welcome advice.

We also occassionally put him in his carseat against his will. I just don't have the patience to wait out his reluctance to get in, and you've gotta get home/store/etc sometimes, right? Suggestions for this, too?

One more question. How much reluctance on your child's part gets your attention, so to speak? Any at all, or somewhere between mild and requiring physical force?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I don't think that it is one bit suprising that only life or death things are UNIVESALLY non-negotiable.

Of course people will disagree as to other things.

While I respect your position I think it that you fail to really understand that some of us believe that it is our role as a parent to make decisions for our childen that are non-negotiable because they simply do not have the life experience/judgment/impulse control to be able to make these decisions for themselves. And that it our duty to do so.

I do not necesarily believe some of these things are UNIVERSALLY non-negotiable but they are NON-negotiable FOR ME.

These do include school, vaccinations (no debates here please, I am well informed), taking medication, kindness torwards others, sitting with the family during meals etc...

Now when I say they are not negotiable what I mean is that I am not going to negotiate with my child to reach a different decision. But I am not going to use the same AMOUNT of "force" (as you put it) for all of them. I am going to use more "force" to keep my child safe (for example physically restraing them from running in the street) then I am for the sitting at the table at family dinners.(where my "force" is that I tell my children that this is what I expect of them and if they don't do it, I would tell them that I expect them to do it the next time).

In other words, I am not going to negotiate the "sitting at the family table" rule, but I am not going to use much force to enforce it.


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

Interesting thread.

I only have a few things I don't negotiate on. All relate to safety. One is having to be in the carseat when the vehicle is moving. I will negotiate how long it takes to get in, whether he puts himself in or I do, etc. If I have the time, I will wait for him to get in, because I doubt I could force him to sit there if I wanted to.

My son is never forced to bathe, eat, sleep, brush teeth, wear diapers, etc. He does choose to do most of those things on his own right now (except bathe for some weird reason, but he doesn't mind being washed with a washcloth...so we're cool..lol).

I admit I can be kind of snippy with him when I'm PMSing and in a hurry, but most times if he protests something, we try to work on a solution.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

There are no "non-negotiables" in our house in theory. I can think of a handful of times that I failed to either read cues or be creative enough and we got backed into a non-negotiable situation. The last one I can remember is grocery shopping right before Christmas. Our co-op closes at 8pm and we got out just as they locked the doors and turned the sign. I had my arms full of groceries and the wind chill was well below zero with snow whipping all over. Dd did not want to get in the car but was also crying because she was cold. Apparently she had wanted a fruit leather but did not mention it while we were inside because she was being played with by one of the emplyess. I dropped the groceries in the trunk and tried knocking on the door, but no one heard us. There are no nearby businesses. She was adament about not getting in the car. I ended up putting her in the car against her will. I did not put her in her seat, but did get the car and heat going until she calmed down enough to go in her seat. She ALWAYS gets a fruit leather in the store and I just forgot. So after she calmed down, we drove to another grocery store and got the leather and she was OK (but still offended). I felt bad. Stuff like this has happened a few times. And while I can see what I could have done to prevent it, I did not know what to do once we got to that spot (in the parking lot).

For us, it is never the "Classic" stuff like shots or meds or carseats. Dd had blood drawn today at the WIC office. I started to explain to dd what was going to happen (I did not know beforehand) and the nurse said that I should not tell ehr, just do it. Um, no. I explained that we needed the blood to see how healthy her blood was and that it was going to hurt a little. I showed her the stuff, explained the procedure, showed her the bandaid she would wear afterwards then asked if it was OK to do. She said yes. If she had said no, I would have told the nurse no. The whole explanation took 60 seconds.....much shorter than I remember my doc taking to pull me out from under the examination table to get a shot forced on me as a child. If she had siad no to the draw, I could have rescheduled the blood draw and spent the time to get some books from the library or a video to show dd what was going to happen. We could practice on her baby or bear. We could talk to other kids that had it done. We could pick out a special bandaid. As long as I am honest all of the time, dd trusts that I am only suggesting things in her best interest. We have done docs, xrays, meds, etc with no problem at all.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Maybe I misunderstood the question. Just because I only say that safety rules are non negotiable, does not mean that we do not _have_ rules. But we use other means to enforce those rules. Yes, we like everyone to sit at the table for family dinner. This is expected of our family. So we all sit down to dinner together. If someone is finished eating and ready to leave the table, I engage them in further conversation, not to force them to stay, but because we are enjoying their company. However, if they insist on leaving the table, for whatever reason, that is their choice. But they will excuse themselves and take their plates to the counter. Not because we've *forced* this behavior, but because that's what's been modeled to them. We model behavior we wish to see, we make decisions based on what is best for the family as a whole. Yes, sometimes ds is disappointed because I won't let him have yet another cookie before dinner, but as the adult, I know that if he eats too many cookies 20 minutes before dinner, he will not be hungry for dinner and then will have a stomach ache from eating nothing but junk. We also have done a "Well, I am not going to say you may not have another cookie, but if you get a stomach ache from eating too many, please do not complain to me." So that he learns from his own experiences what happens if you eat junk instead of healthy food....so it's not to say there are no rules, what I mean is that safety rules are the only ones that are completely non negotiable. In fact, it's funny to hear my 2 yr old say "everyone in your carseat, safety rules are non negotiable"







:


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I don't think that it is one bit suprising that only life or death things are UNIVESALLY non-negotiable.

Of course people will disagree as to other things.

I agree with Maya on this. I don't think that you'll see people agree on what is non-negotiable except on life and death issues (and even then I'm not so sure everyone will always agree).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Now when I say they are not negotiable what I mean is that I am not going to negotiate with my child to reach a different decision. But I am not going to use the same AMOUNT of "force" (as you put it) for all of them. I am going to use more "force" to keep my child safe (for example physically restraing them from running in the street) then I am for the sitting at the table at family dinners.(where my "force" is that I tell my children that this is what I expect of them and if they don't do it, I would tell them that I expect them to do it the next time).

This is more or less what non-negotiable in my home looks like as well. I'm not going to use physical force except to protect my kids, which is rare. But there are things I don't negotiate on, we just find other ways to engage cooperation and we model it and make it clear that's what we expect. No punishment, but no negotiation either. That said, the number of non-negotiable matters is small as compared to the vast number of issues on which we are happy to negotiate. (non-negotiables here, by our choice, include going to school, going to pick up children from school, and assisting in care of the house, among probably a few other things. _How_ (or under what conditions or when) any of it gets done may be negotiable in some way, but getting it done is not negotiable, yk?)

But I'm not sure that I'm entirely clear about what you object to and wish to discuss, Pat. Is it the use of _physical_ force you're objecting to in this thread? Or is it the idea of "non-negotiable" (even if physical force isn't used)? Or both?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

For us there are degrees of negotiation for almost everything - barring times I might physically move him from the street, or something. The life-threatening things. But I suppose that there are limits to how far a negotiation can go. Like, I'll work with DS about how he's dressed to go outside, but it won't end in his playing naked in the snow. But I think that's still in the realm of negotiation, because from DS's side, he won't be going out in a snowsuit, hat, and mittens! We find a happy medium.

Even exploring knives is negotiable! If I'm cooking and DS wants to cut with me, I give him a butter knife to use. He usually decides after a minute that it's not a cool as mom's and want's my knife. If I am at a point I can pause, I help him explore it. We work out something that we both like. Sometimes I'm too wrapped in cooking and tell him I'll be happy to show him the knife when I get to a stopping point. It doesn't end with DS juggling knives, even though he sometimes gets very insistent about doing just that. But I still consider that negotiating. He can explore the knives and I can feel safe about it.

About the carseat... I feel that my rediculous amounts of time spent when DS was very little getting him out of the seat every little time he cried or whimpered or wanted anything, was an investment. He loves the car now. But I also employ (and did even when DS was an infant) DVDs and music. I always thought it was unfair to expect a little one to be strapped down with no stimulation that they enjoyed and expected not to fuss. So at this point it's almost unheard of for DS to resist the carseat. But it did happen once just the other day. He was very tired, hungry, and my mother was there yapping at him to calm down. He melted down whe I put him in. So I took him back out (had to push my mother out of the way because she was trying to restrain me







: ) and walked him around until he was calm. He was happy to get beck in within 3 minutes.

I don't know. It doesn't seem that hard to me at all.







Way easier than trying to break a child's will. I will say that it's hard to deal with unsupportive friends and relatives, but that's not the same thing.

Sorry for the ramble...







Been interrupted lots!


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*

For us, it is never the "Classic" stuff like shots or meds or carseats. Dd had blood drawn today at the WIC office. I started to explain to dd what was going to happen (I did not know beforehand) and the nurse said that I should not tell ehr, just do it. Um, no. I explained that we needed the blood to see how healthy her blood was and that it was going to hurt a little. I showed her the stuff, explained the procedure, showed her the bandaid she would wear afterwards then asked if it was OK to do. She said yes. If she had said no, I would have told the nurse no. The whole explanation took 60 seconds.....much shorter than I remember my doc taking to pull me out from under the examination table to get a shot forced on me as a child. If she had siad no to the draw, I could have rescheduled the blood draw and spent the time to get some books from the library or a video to show dd what was going to happen. We could practice on her baby or bear. We could talk to other kids that had it done. We could pick out a special bandaid. As long as I am honest all of the time, dd trusts that I am only suggesting things in her best interest. We have done docs, xrays, meds, etc with no problem at all.







































This is such a fantastic example of why I love the MDC mamas









This approach takes more time, patience and energy but the end result is having such trust from your child is so worth the investment.

I was thinking about this issue last night (related to what I wrote on another thread). I think that there might be a time when I just had to make dd do something - for instance if there were a medical emergency and it was life saving measures.

As APmom said - we do have saftey "rules" in our house - and dd says "thats a rule" and respects it. For instance, we dont play on the stairs, and we do not pick up the chihuahua by the neck. But there is always an age appropriate explanation involved when dd is told not to do something.

I think this Hathor comic is on point:
Y knot


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
While I respect your position I think it that you fail to really understand that some of us believe that it is our role as a parent to make decisions for our childen that are non-negotiable because they simply do not have the life experience/judgment/impulse control to be able to make these decisions for themselves. And that it our duty to do so.

I agree with this even though there is only one thing on that list that is non-negotiable for me (toothbrushing- and I'd probably let that go if ds didn't have 10 cavities). When ds was an infant, like all mothers, I made most decisions for him. The issue is partially what age do you turn the decision making over to dc. As mine has grown, I've slowly turned over much of it to him as I felt he was able to handle it. I used to make him hold my hand in a parking lot. Now, I trust he will stay near me. He was very distressed at preschool so I withdrew him and am planning on homeschooling for the time being. He is welcome to play with fire with the condition that a grown up is with him.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I was thinking long and hard trying to find non-negotiable things in our family, but failed to find them.

Maybe safety *would* be non-negotiable, but both of my kids enforce it more than I do sometimes, LOL When DS was small, he would tell me "Mom, the sign says 35mph and you are going 40! Slow down!" DD would literally scream if I even started the car before she was fully buckled up. *She* insists on holding my hand when crossing the road. *She* asks for a "safe" knife when we cook.

I did/do spend significant time explaining the reason we have to mind safety and I guess it sticks. It never had to be a "mommy's rule", it is just something that all of us do.

I am sure I did not experience all of the possible "if's" and "when's", just relaying our experience.

PS. Some negotiations do take a long time though! I am learning patience that I did not know I was capable of







and I admit I loose it now and then


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

But I'm not sure that I'm entirely clear about what you object to and wish to discuss, Pat.
Me, neither.

I think it's fairly obvious that outside of "No, you may not lie down in the street in front of the bulldozer", people are going to draw the line in different places. I don't know if there is a point to *debating* that line.

I do not personally accept the idea that everyone can always "negotiate" everything to everyone's satisfaction. I don't think it's a bad thing to try for, aim for, or consider, but I think it is, frankly, an enormous thing to ask of a parent, especially parents with multiple children, high-needs children, special needs children, their own emotional issues (such as being an abuse survivor), economic constraints, partner problems, family issues...that's starting to sound like just about everyone, isn't it? Such is my point.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I don't think we'd ever agree on what's "non negotiable", outside of the running in the street thing, either.

I also agree that what separates us is what happens when those of us who do not insist on mutual solutions get down to it. Those who would simply force with no consideration of alternatives, no explanation, no sympathy, and perhaps a snide remark or whatever *are different* from those who would try to come up with alternatives, but then explain and symapthize and make the best of the situation, *who are different* from those who wouild do whatever possible to come up with something that worked for everyone.

I would guess that most of us just have different 'breaking points', and different ways to handle the situations as they arise. I don't have a formula, like: "well, if after 5 minutes, and 3 suggestions he doesn't do x, I'm going to do it for him" - I gauge each situation and see what the outcomes and possible solutions might be, and then act from there. And YES, in my family, as the parent I do take more of the responsibility on judging situations, because, well, he's 2. He just cannot understand the long term ramifications of some situations, or see the big picture as opposed to the "right now"....that's why he was born tiny and dependent on me for everything, and will GROW into a fully independent human...how many 2 year olds could live on their own without a guardian?

This morning, after DS's appointment, we headed out of the hospital (him walking on his own near me, me pushing his little collapsible stroller) and I told him that when we got outside he either needed to hold onto the stroller, hold my hand, or I would carry him. It was raining pretty heavily, that nice, cold rain we get in upstate NY







: . Well, he didn't want to hold onto the stroller....and he kept pulling his hand away from mine when I tried to reach for it...the whole time I'm talking to him about being safe near moving cars. So, I told him that since he didn't want to hold the stroller or my hand, I would carry him, because it wasn't safe for him to cross the street and walk in the parking lot by himself. He's 2 - he just doesn't have the judgement to walk in moving traffic. So, I picked him up - and he kind of whimpered for a minute as we were walking along. I asked him if he wanted to try walking holding my hand or the stroller, he nodded, so I put him down. He still wouldn't hold either my hand or the stroller, so I picked him up again and carried him the rest of the way. I sympathized with him that he wanted to walk, but reminded him that it just wasn't safe for him to walk on his own. So, yes - I physically forced him by picking him up, and invaded his body integrity, I suppose. However, the option of standing there chasing him around in the cold rain with the stroller, when I had a conference call scheduled for work in an hour, it just wasn't going to happen. Even in nice weather....there just wasn't any place for him to go. Right outside the hospital is the valet parking circle, then the road, then the parking lot...and it's not aprticularly saf eor considerate either for him to run the halls of the hospital. WHen we got home, he zipped around on the porch for a few minutes, to work his legs out - which is fine. But me telling him he could run at home, while we were at the hospital still, didn't mean a lick to him at that moment. So, I decided on a course of action, and got us home.

So, let's see. I gave him a couple choices, and a couple chances to be safe in the situation we were in, and it didn't happen. I wasn't mad or upset at all, he's only 2 and just cannot grasp the situation. However, that doesn't mean to me that I need to find a way for him to walk around, when it's something that would have required quite a bit of flanagling and not been agreeable to me at all.

I suppose in matters of road safety, and personal hygiene (changing dirty diapers), I will do a certain amount of negotiating to make the situation more appealing to him (changing standin gup, in the tub, watching a video, whatever) but in the end, the diaper is goign to get changed, and he's not going to walk in moving traffic on his own. Personally, I cannot see at all that me "forcing" my son to have a dirty diaper changed to avoid him getting a huge rash ( or carrying him across a street and through a busy parking lot)would somehow translate into him acquiescing to someone trying to sexually violate him in later years.

My parents were gentle but definitely "in charge", and I'm sure sometiems they would pick me up to carry me, or put me in my carseat if I didnt' want to, or make me get my diaper changed...but I in NO way as a result of that felt like it was OK for anyone to do anything to me sexually that I didnt want them to. In fact, I can think of 2 situations when I was a young teenager that boys tried to get me to do more than I wanted to, and I literally walked away (one time calling my dad to come get me) and that was the end of that relationship. My parents instilled me with the knowledge that I was valuable and worthy, and THAT is what stuck with me, not the occasional coercion as a small child to do a function of daily living.

Sooooo...I just can't equate "forcing" my child to change his diaper, or get into a car seat without waiting somewhere for X amount of time, or whatever to having them not be able to distinguish a bad sexual touch from their mom cleaning their diaper or getting them into their car seat. It just doesn't register for me.

Having said all that, I will also say that if the diaper change or car seat scenarios (which seem to be very common ones here) were constantly met with resistance and fear, screaming, etc., like EVERY time, then I would definitely look to see what the underlying cause was. BUT - for the occasional time when DS just doesn't want me to change a poop that he made 15 minutes ago because he doesnt' want to stand still for 2 minutes, even if I play a video for him, even if I give him a piece of cheese, I just can't equate it to him becoming a person who would let anyone do anything to him without standing up for himself.

I just think that's a big, big leap to make, and doesn't give enough credit to our kids instinct to learn, be taught, and know good intentions from bad.

I do try to accomodate my son as much as I possibly can - we've gone out in some truly interesting getups, and with him bringing along some interesting 'toys' - gone bottomless many times at home - had a cupcake before dinner - carefully explore a stapler he found - so I'm not compeltely inflexible - just sometimes his "wants" do not outweigh my "needs". I guess that's what it comes down to for me.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Well besides life threatening I'd say if someone is being forceful to my dc or my dc is being forceful to someone else I will intervene. But intervening doesn't need to equate to my being physically forceful.
At one point I thought I had to brush my ds' teeth even when he didn't want to. I did it anyway. So from then on he refused often. I tried a ton of different ways to make it fun. Sometimes he agreed, sometimes he refused. When he refused I did it anyway. I TOOK HIS POWER FROM HIM- HE STRUGGLED FOR IT BACK. If I had had half a brain I would have waited 15 minutes that FIRST time and asked again, instead of doing it anyway. There most likely was an alternative. I see this clearly now in retrospect.
As soon as I LET GO (under the guidance of my dearest friend) and talked to him about it and gave him the power back the struggle ceased to be. He knew why I expected his teeth brushed we talked about it sveral times. He came to understand how important it was to me. He also understood I would not force him anymore. This did not lead to his teeth not being brushed. I needed to TRUST that he wanted to do the acceptable thing. His teeth get brushed 2-3 times a day now and he almost always wants my help. I deeply regret forcing my will on him.
In a hazardous situation you bet I'll intervene. In a safety situation you bet I'll intervene. For instance at the store the other day ds4 was walking with the rest of us. He does follow impulses quite a bit still, so my eye is almost constantly on him. CHALLENGING







. I turned for 2 seconds, then back and he was running off. I said 'Kendall' quite loudly. He turned and stopped. I quickly got to him and bent down. I explained to him AGAIN why I needed him to stay with me. He told me he wanted to look at the fish. I told him that was okay and I needed him to tell me if he wanted to see something so we could go together. And we did. I intervened but I did not need to be forceful.
Yesterday when I was suggesting something to my dd6 she told her dad, 'Dad you know why I listen to mommy's suggestions? Because I don't want to get hurt or be uncomfortable.'








I definitely believe that what our dc live with on a DAILY basis is much more imoprtant than a moment here and there.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I also wanted to say that one other BIG area I consider non-negotiable are things that will effect someone else. An example from the past was if I needed to pick up DD 1 at pre-school in 10 minutes and DD 2 did not want to get in the car, I would defintiley "force" (gently) her into the car and into her car seat. I couldn't leave DD1 at pre-school while I take the time to negotiate with DD2. It would not have been fair to DD1 or to her teachers who were under strict time guidelines on many days. So that is a time I would have used gentle physical force because something was (for me) truly non-negotiable.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm not sure I have the concept of non-negotiable down as intended by the OP, but as the PP mentioned, the one other situation that comes to mind (aside from safety) is how my child's behavior might affect someone else. Specifically, I was thinking about how she's recently gotten interested in the effects of waving objects around and hitting them on other things. Hairbrush meets coffee table -- fine. Big bang, lots of giggles, a few dents that don't matter much. Hairbrush meets cat -- not negotiable. That's not ok because it hurts the cat. A secondary issue is that the cat might hurt her back (kitty communication), but the core message I want her to learn is that it's not ok to hurt someone/something else, even when you're not trying to hurt them, you're just having fun. So the hairbrush gets taken out of her hand.

When she has a toy like that and I see her heading for one of the cats, I give her a verbal heads-up so she remembers not to hit them. (Be gentle with the kitty. Pet with an open hand, gentle touch, put the brush down first, etc.) I will try to redirect her attention and get physically close enough to the situation to intervene with a stronger redirect before she has a chance to hit the cat. I'll sometimes try to move the cat to safer ground. (Although wouldn't that be forcing the cat to do something, then, rather than the child?) But once she hits the cat, I do physically remove the tool in question, then explain again why that's not ok, what is ok, show her how to pet the cat, and so on. I don't know if that's a good example of a universal non-negotiable issue -- it just seems like an age-appropriate response to her natural curiosity and energy combined with what I feel is an appropriate non-negotiable issue. What would you do differently in that situation to avoid physically taking a tool/toy away from a child?


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I also wanted to say that one other BIG area I consider non-negotiable are things that will effect someone else. An example from the past was if I needed to pick up DD 1 at pre-school in 10 minutes and DD 2 did not want to get in the car, I would defintiley "force" (gently) her into the car and into her car seat. I couldn't leave DD1 at pre-school while I take the time to negotiate with DD2. It would not have been fair to DD1 or to her teachers who were under strict time guidelines on many days. So that is a time I would have used gentle physical force because something was (for me) truly non-negotiable.
Yes, leaving a child possibly scared and waiting would not be an option for me. Is it okay if I throw out a couple ideas? If not you can of course just ignore me







. It's quite possible you already do these things.

Have a snack packed and ready to go with, or stock the car with special treats, leave ten minutes earlier so as not to be rushed, have a few books or toys in the car to hand to her, possibly a magnadoodle, those are fun. Encourage her to pick up a piece of nature on the way to the car to hold for the ride. Bring along her favorite tape or cd if you have a player in the car. Maybe one of those things would persuade her to get in her seat without physically forcing her?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
Yes, leaving a child possibly scared and waiting would not be an option for me. Is it okay if I throw out a couple ideas? If not you can of course just ignore me







. It's quite possible you already do these things.

Have a snack packed and ready to go with, or stock the car with special treats, leave ten minutes earlier so as not to be rushed, have a few books or toys in the car to hand to her, possibly a magnadoodle, those are fun. Encourage her to pick up a piece of nature on the way to the car to hold for the ride. Bring along her favorite tape or cd if you have a player in the car. Maybe one of those things would persuade her to get in her seat without physically forcing her?


Well as i said it was an example from the past, DD2 is almost 11 so its not really an issue anymore!









But yes, I certainly tried to do what I could though our schedules were tight, there was no "10 minutes earlier". My point was just that for us with three under the age of four (which I had at one point) there were many times when things were not negotiable for one because of the needs of another.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

When she has a toy like that and I see her heading for one of the cats, I give her a verbal heads-up so she remembers not to hit them. (Be gentle with the kitty. Pet with an open hand, gentle touch, put the brush down first, etc.) I will try to redirect her attention and get physically close enough to the situation to intervene with a stronger redirect before she has a chance to hit the cat. I'll sometimes try to move the cat to safer ground. (Although wouldn't that be forcing the cat to do something, then, rather than the child?) But once she hits the cat, I do physically remove the tool in question, then explain again why that's not ok, what is ok, show her how to pet the cat, and so on. I don't know if that's a good example of a universal non-negotiable issue -- it just seems like an age-appropriate response to her natural curiosity and energy combined with what I feel is an appropriate non-negotiable issue. What would you do differently in that situation to avoid physically taking a tool/toy away from a child?
Hairbrush meets kitty is not acceptable to me either







. My first question is does she protest when you take the brush away? If not what you're doing sounds okay to me. If she does- What if you redirect her back to what she can use the brush on after she hits? 'It hurts the cat to be hit with the brush. I need the cat to be safe. You can bang the brush on the couch or you can brush your hair with it.' Possibly demonstrating with your hand like you're holding a fake brush? Or I guess I might keep the brush out of reach for a couple of months too if that the only object dc hits with. I might also call attention to how the cat looks or what it does when hit. See how kitty runs away when hit, it hurts/ scares her so she wants to go away. See how kitty scrunches down when hit, she looks scared.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I would think that if something were *truly* Non-negotiable, we could all agree on it. Besides making a child get into a stroller to go for a walk







what else does *everyone* agree is "non-negotiable" and Must be forced against a child's will if they don't agree/consent/comply/obey? _Besides that which is truly Life Threatening_.

Btw, there was a study done of the same nature. Amazingly, not *everyone* could agree that some of the most common activities forced on children were "non-negotiable", so perhaps the actions forced on children are *"selectively non-negotiable"*. http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c...cs_survey_1997

Obviously, wearing diapers is not universally non-negotiable _even on this forum_, "having to" get into the carseat and go somewhere is not universally non-negotiable, shampooing hair is not universally non-negotiable; vaccination is not universally non-negotiable; going to school/daycare is not universally non-negotiable; going to the dentist is not universally non-negotiable; brushing teeth, taking a bath, eating vegetables, eating what is served at dinner or going to bed without, bedtimes, leaving the park, timeouts, saying thank you, going to church, going to the grocery store, sitting at the dinner table, etc.

So, what activities do you feel comfortable forcing your child to do against their will because they are *truly*

 *
Let's replace this "truly" with "universally" because many things are "truly" non-negotiable for each of us, which do not meet your above definition of "universally" non-negotiable.
I agree that likely only life or death situations would be "universally" non negotiable
*

Quote:

non-negotiable? I am wondering if perhaps we could agree on what is truly non-negotiable; or is the use of coercion and force just a subjective *unwillness* to consider/continue negotiating for the sake of expediency? (ie. force is _justified_ because 'I am in a hurry ("it is time to do xyz") and I don't want to deal with negotiating about this any longer in a more cooperative/respectful fashion'.) Or is it the lack of negotiation skills or lack of communication tools? Or is it just a commonly held belief that one has a right to decide to force others to do what one wants "for their own good", because she is the parent?
I think it is likely all of the above. There comes a point where many of us, even those who practice negotiation and playfullness and any other number of ways to gently manipulate our children to willingly do what we want run out of patience and time and become less willing to continue to do that song and dance. The number of things I am willing to try and the amount of time I am willing to give to any number of personally "non-negotiable" situations have limits. Does it mean I am unwilling to consider negotiating altogether? No it just means that at some point I am done. This point may be sooner or later depending on time contsraints and my personal level of creativity and patience.
And yes finally I believe it IS a commonly held belief that one has a right, nay, a Responsibility to decide to force others to do what one wants "for their own good" because he or she is the parent.

Quote:

I honestly do not understand the paradox. We instruct our children not to use force to get their way. But....many adults model the use of force to get their way. How can our children learn from the inconsistency of our words from our actions? The Center for Non-violent Communications has many communication tools for more effective conflict resolution. See www.CNVC.org.
Some of us believe that the parent child relationship is unique and that children learn about how people should be treated from how adults treat each other, and how children should be treated from how parents treat children. In no other relationship does one person have such an awesome responsibilty over another, so to model all relationships based on the parent/child relationship simply is not the right mold. You may disagree and not understand. And that is ok and a very valid reason why you would choose otherwise. On the other hand, I see no paradox.

Quote:

However, I believe there *is a mutually agreeable alternative* available which can be found that respects the child's body space integrity instead. Perhaps, we could continue to seek those together instead of advocating the default to force, except perhaps when it is *truly* and universally necessary due to a life threatening event. When is that?
Pat
Again, it comes down to a core difference in what we believe.
I have no objection to the default use of force (coercion, not necessarily always physical force). And while I am very interested in kind and fun ways to get my children to do what I need them to do. I do not think it is an either/or scenario.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Well as i said it was an example from the past, DD2 is almost 11 so its not really an issue anymore!








oh! okay







, missed that.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

There comes a point where many of us, even those who practice negotiation and playfullness and any other number of ways to gently manipulate our children to willingly do what we want run out of patience and time and become less willing to continue to do that song and dance. The number of things I am willing to try and the amount of time I am willing to give to any number of personally "non-negotiable" situations have limits. Does it mean I am unwilling to consider negotiating altogether? No it just means that at some point I am done. This point may be sooner or later depending on time contsraints and my personal level of creativity and patience.










Yup.


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## erika h (Dec 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Besides making a child get into a stroller to go for a walk







what else does *everyone* agree is "non-negotiable" and Must be forced against a child's will if they don't agree/consent/comply/obey?

A big one for us was "no running in the parking lot" - although not immediately life threatening, when our daughter was 2 and 3, she'd just take off running once she got out of the car.

I finally taught her "hands on the car" until we were all ready to go, and if I was carrying something with both hands, she had to keep her one hand on my coat or in my pocket.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

Besides making a child get into a stroller to go for a walk what else does *everyone* agree is "non-negotiable" and Must be forced against a child's will if they don't agree/consent/comply/obey?
did i miss something. i definitely do not think above exmple is 'non negotiable'

also i dont think that true = universal.

i think that for any rule we go through stages where up to a certain age we make the decisions for the kids and they have no say, like no solids before 6 months, no wheat before 12 months, etc. this i have no problem extending to non food items like no TV before x yrs and no sugar before x years.

in the next phase, i would differentiate the things that i think are healthy and lift restrictions in toto, and other things i would offer in a limited way, like sugar - which i also have no problem restricting / limiting. Or for that matter vitamin C. then there would be an age where i would lift the surveillance altogether. this age would vary for different things and i would set it dynamically according to a complex blend of factors.

life threatening things i think follow a similar pattern in that there is a stage where we physically remove our children from dangerous situations like traffic and eventually they get to a stage here they understand and internalise the rule themselves. but i offer the explanations even from the beginning. i dont see a need for anthig becoign nonnegotiable.

anyway, i am the same person who is putting vicks on my dd withut her consent, so go figure ....

Besides that which is truly Life Threatening.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Some of us believe that the parent child relationship is unique and that children learn about how people should be treated from how adults treat each other, and how children should be treated from how parents treat children.

That is interesting, so you believe that they turn 18 and something changes, that they then know - 'now I can be treated x way and should treat others x way' ? Fascinating! Maybe it is different for us because my kids don't go to school, so we are living in the "real", "adult" world always and it wouldn't make sense for them to not understand how adults treat each other or to treat children differently.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

While it is my goal to be completely non-coercive and strive to always find mutually agreeable solutions, I can't say that in the 18(+) years that our daughter is living with us that every single thing will be negotiable.

I can say however, that I intend to enter every situation with the pure intention of reaching a mutually agreeable solution and with the mindset, spirit, and determination to not force her to do something she doesn't want to do.

The reason I have to say that is because when someone like me makes a comment like "I would never force her into her carseat" ... someone will inevitably counter that statement with:

"but what if it was snowing and your daughter chose not to wear shoes that day and she was getting frostbite and gangrene and your mother was in an accident and you had to get to the hospital and a knife-weilding murderer was chasing you and your husband said he would divorce you if you didn't leave but your child STILL didn't want to leave... would you force them THEN?????"

So, I am put in a position where I have to relent and say, "well gee, I suppose then I would probably coerce her into the car."

Where the person responds "seeeeeeeeee!!! You are COERCIVE!!! You really don't mean what you say about consensual living!!!!"

*sigh*

So, in conclusion, I enter every interaction with my child with the spirit, intent, and determination inside me to live consensually with her and to honor her autonomy and to find a mutually agreeable solution to any issue that may arise. I think it can be accomplished in almost all situations and that is what I strive for.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I posted this to the other thread that has gotten into negotiation vs coersion, the diaper thread up towards the top - but really meant to post it here (even though it's kind of relevant in both places since the diaper thread has taken a kind of OT turn.....) SO, if you read it there, it's the same thing here!








+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, so I keep thinking about this....it's starting to become an obsession....









For me, I don't really go into any situation thinking it's non negotiable...I just have limits to what is agreeable to me, and if DS and I can't come to an agreement, I will make things as comfortable to him as I can, and then just move on. I'm certainly not looking for ways every day for me to exert my power, or impose my will on him, but if we can't come to an agreement fairly quickly, as the adult in the relationship I feel I am responsible for making the best of a situation, helping DS express and explore his feelings, and then move on.

I keep falling back to the feeling that if small children were meant to live on their own and make all the decisions regarding their life for themselves, we'd be like other mammals that are able to (and expected to) survive without their parents after a year or two. However, we are clearly not made that way...at the earliest, a teenager could make it on their own, albeit struggling. If you put a 6-year-old out into the world (even if it was back in the stone ages when there wasn't so much tenchology and rush, rush, rush) they still wouldn't be ableto survive on their own (and I'm not talking about emotionally, I'm talking about literal survival). I firmly believe that children *grow into* their ability to be independent, develop the ability to reason, gain the insight to see "the big picture", etc. etc. AND, that is why I will gradually hand over the reigns to my child(ren), base don their individual development and abilities.

I also firmly believe that every child is different, and what works in one situation for one child will not be the same for any other given child. This is why it is so important to be in tune with your children and their own individual needs and abilities, and not try to 'cookie cutter parent' by any one means.

I base a lot of my parenting on the way I was parented. I think I turned out pretty well







I don't have any resentment towards my parents, I don't have any boundary issues with my personal space, I don't have any feelings of resentment that my parents didn't value my opinions, and I certainly don't have any problem letting someone know if something they are doing to me or around me is NOT OK with me. AND, my parents were gentle, but sometimes coersive. Though I do live much of my life in the "mainstream world" (check out the sorta crunchy/sorta mainstream thread in Finding Your Tribe), I most certainly think critically about things that are going on in the world and do not believe anything told to me by "authorities" just because they say so.

So, for me it's not about things being non-negotiable - many, many times I negotiate with my child and find mutual solutions. However, when we come to stalemates because my son is not capable of *really* understanding the repercussions of things, I feel it is my job to move along the path of least resistance (not necessarily NO resistance), and just get the job done. This often means a compromise on *both* our parts, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I guess I just don't see the necessity for everyone to be 100% satisfied 100% of the time. I have a deep sense of satisfaction with my life, even though I don't always get exactly what I want/need, and quite frankly I have no desire to negotiate with people to be satisfied with the outcome all the time - a lot of things just don't matter that much to me...I'm trying to figure out how to say this nicely....I guess I feel that if someone feels the need to always be 100% satisfied with the solution or outcome to a situation (which to me is what mutually agreeable means, everyone is totally satisfied, but correct me if i'm wrong), there must be something going on (or have gone on previously in your life) that has left you feeling out of control or dissatisfied with your life somewhere...to me it seems, frankly, a bit naive. To me, part of growing into an adult is realizing that not being 100% satisfied with things all the time is OK, and that being mostly OK with things sometimes is just fine, you can have a joyous fulfilled life without always being totally satisfied with things...it seems like a burden to me to always have to figure out how to make myself happy AND make others happy at the same time. PLEASE realize I'm talking about everyday, mundane, daily living scenarios, NOT life changing situations or major life events.

I'm hoping to pass on this deepsense of satisfaction to my child(ren), and the resilience to always glean the best out of a situation even though it might not be exactly as they envisioned it.

AND, AGAIN - if my child was kicking, screaming, crying, etc. DAILY about any one situation or event, I would absolutely get to the bottom of what was causing the problem and find a way to work things out. However, for the occasional minor disappointment during a daily living situation, I just don't want to give it (the situation) that much power in my life, or my child's life. I want him to know that little situations shouldn't have that much power, that there is so much more to life than some of the minor inconveniences of daily living.

OK - I'm going to TRY to stop thinking about this now....at least for a few minutes.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I posted this to the other thread that has gotten into negotiation vs coersion, the diaper thread up towards the top - but really meant to post it here (even though it's kind of relevant in both places since the diaper thread has taken a kind of OT turn.....)








yeah I'm starting to feel dizzy from running back and forth.

I do not try to make every thing in our life mutually agrreable. I am striving towards consensual living (for a long time now without ever hearing the phrase) which to me seems quite different. I wish I knew all the things I know now since the beginning of motherhood. I did well for being ignorant simply out of pure love for my dc and a deep desire for them to be happy, respected, and attached. The forced toothbrushing has really been my biggest regret in life.
I do not expect things to always be agreeable to me and neither do my 4 yr old and 6 yr old. Quite often one of us consents to something that is quite obviously more important to the other person, among numerous other reasons. I will assume cooperation can be engaged. I am not perfect though! Frustration, anger, tiredness, hunger all CAN throw me (and dc) off at times, I do my best to work through it in the moment. I EXPECT my dc to listen to safety concerns upon my explaining them. I EXPECT my dc to listen to my needs, wants, concerns, and me theirs'. Doesn't mean all of these will ALWAYS in every instance be met immediately. I EXPECT these things not in a 'I expect this or else' way but in a 'I expect this because it seems like this will happen way'. I do believe my dc WANT to do the acceptable thing almost all the time. When not there is a reason I will do my best to find out and remedy. I DO NOT spend all of my time in negotiations. That is ridiculous and uneccessary. I will negotiate as needed. I do make my expectations clearly available. I do talk about my feelings, wants, and needs and encourage them to do so too. All that said I don't feel that defaulting to force is neccessary. I believe doing so will likely create MORE time-consuming issues and MORE stress and MORE acting out of anger, frustration, and aggression than not forcing my will.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

MissRubyandKen, you know, I think when it comes down to it, a lot of us are probably a lot more alike than we're realizing....I think many of us are saying basically the same things, but in different ways, and with only minimal differences.

Gotta love semantics - or how do they say it? "The devil is in the details...."...
















re: toothbrushing (another popular coersion/non-coersion situation!), DS wasn't initially thrilled with the prospect - so we tried him having one and us having one - him brushing mine then me brushing his, and several other permutations, all with a little bit of grumbling and resistance but not a huge fuss....UNTIL, we stumbled across the fact that he LOVES DH and my Sonicare toothbrush!







We bought a set of extra soft gentle bristles, and he sits happily we "sing" (one sure fire way to get his mouth to stay open) while I buzz his teeth for a minute or two (incidentally, his ped thought this was a great idea - ha!).

Sooo, although there wasn't extreme resistance or tears or anything to it, there was enough protest by him with our other methods that it made us uncomfortable and we kept searching until we found something he liked!

Sooooo, maybe I'm a little more noncoersive than I thought!


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*

I can say however, that I intend to enter every situation with the pure intention of reaching a mutually agreeable solution and with the mindset, spirit, and determination to not force her to do something she doesn't want to do.

The reason I have to say that is because when someone like me makes a comment like "I would never force her into her carseat" ... someone will inevitably counter that statement with:

"but what if it was snowing and your daughter chose not to wear shoes that day and she was getting frostbite and gangrene and your mother was in an accident and you had to get to the hospital and a knife-weilding murderer was chasing you and your husband said he would divorce you if you didn't leave but your child STILL didn't want to leave... would you force them THEN?????"

So, I am put in a position where I have to relent and say, "well gee, I suppose then I would probably coerce her into the car."

Where the person responds "seeeeeeeeee!!! You are COERCIVE!!! You really don't mean what you say about consensual living!!!!"

*sigh*

.
















:

This sounds like a conversation I would have with my father!









So many people I run across just dont get WHY I would let dd continue to play at daycare when I have come to pick her up. I see so many parents that are "in charge" and it just makes me feel so







I look like an alien when I actually bother to speak to my 2.5 year old and tell her why its time to leave "its time to make dinner. Rico (the dog) is waiting for us to take him outside" The thing is dd gets it - yeah, its takes us 10 minutes longer to leave but she is happy, I'm happy.

For instance, yesterday when I went to pick her up she had just had a poop accident. I knew she was upset and needed some time to play before she was ready to leave. I know my daughter and I know that when she is upset she is especially closed to negotiation. So I helped pick up the toys while she played. Then we got on shoes to go outside. Then I let her play a bit more in the courtyard. Finally, I said "its time to go home and make dinner" and she left. When we got home we talked about it a little, and how important it is to leave daycare so we can come home and take Rico out.

I feel it is my job to teach her and guide her. I want her to do the things I ask of her because she knows it is the right thing to do, not because I said so. That does not happen overnight, its a long process. But I hope that when dd is a teenager and we talk about things like drinking and driving, she will listen to to me then, when I can no longer pick her up and carry her away, she will listen to me because she trusts and respects me, not from fear.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I find the suggestion that people who seek mutually agreeable solutions must be somehow damaged to be very insulting.

What people don't seem to understand about this lifestyle choice, is that I don't parent this way _because_ of how I was raised -- I parent this way _in spite_ of how I was raised.

I parent this way not because of how I was treated, but because of how I want to be treated.

I parent this way because my size advantage, age advantage, financial advantage and maturity will never give me the right to use force on another human being, especially one who is vehemently protesting said force.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that living consensually or finding mutually agreeable solutions meant that you are 100% satisfied 100% of the time. We all live in this world too ya know, we do know how it works. However, I do believe that one can be heard, empathised with, talked with, validated, considered and respected 100% of the time even if we don't always get what we want 100% of the time.

I reject the notion that just because human babies need their caregivers for a longer period of time, it means we as adults have free reign to impose our will over their bodies, choices, opinions, thoughts and actions.

Yes, part of the gift of motherhood is protecting our children and nurturing them, loving them and respectfully guiding them with their consent -- and I don't think anyone, non-coercive or otherwise wouldn't pull their child off the road if a Mack truck was seconds away from making them a pancake. Fortunately, those aren't situations that happen very often and I think hypothetical situations like that are a convenient way to deflect from talking about day to day situations that will occur 1000 times to every 1 mack truck incident.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
... someone will inevitably counter that statement with:

"but what if it was snowing and your daughter chose not to wear shoes that day and she was getting frostbite and gangrene and your mother was in an accident and you had to get to the hospital and a knife-weilding murderer was chasing you and your husband said he would divorce you if you didn't leave but your child STILL didn't want to leave... would you force them THEN?????"

So, I am put in a position where I have to relent and say, "well gee, I suppose then I would probably coerce her into the car."

Where the person responds "seeeeeeeeee!!! You are COERCIVE!!! You really don't mean what you say about consensual living!!!!"









:







:







: So true


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I don't recall anyone ever saying that living consensually or finding mutually agreeable solutions meant that you are 100% satisfied 100% of the time. We all live in this world too ya know, we do know how it works. However, I do believe that one can be heard, empathised with, talked with, validated, considered and respected 100% of the time even if we don't always get what we want 100% of the time.

I think it would help, perhaps, if we understood that we're all operating on the same understanding of "living consenually" and "mutually agreeable solutions." I think that there might be some misunderstanding of these terms, and perhaps concrete examples of this in action, during the more mundane moments, might help. I do agree that one can parent while always striving to hear, empathize with, talk with, validate, consider and respect one's children-but I think this can be done even as I say that something is most definitely not agreeable to me as the parent, that when this happens I can be considerate of my children, I can empathize, I can work to make this situation agreeable to them. I just don't know if this is what Pat and captain crunchy mean consider finding a mutually agreeable solution. I don't think being considerate, respectful, and empathetic toward my children rules out my ever saying a particular thing is non-negotiable at this moment (like, picking up your sister from school is not negotiable, but you can choose to leave early and we'll walk or we can drive, or you can bring a toy if you like, or we can stop somewhere on the way if we leave early....).

I also think there's (at least for me) some confusion about what everyone considers "force."

So perhaps Pat and captain crunchy would elaborate? With examples? (I know cc has already given one about the blood draw.) I ask this in honest curiosity and with an honest desire to learn.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I find the suggestion that people who seek mutually agreeable solutions must be somehow damaged to be very insulting.

I apologize, insulting was NOT my intention - as I said, I was tryign to find a way to express myself, but clearly I didn't. However.....this part of your post

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I parent this way _in spite_ of how I was raised.

is kind of what I was (unsuccessfully) trying to to point out. Since you were dissatisfied with the way you were parented you are going in the opposite direction of your childhood...I never meant to imply that anyone was "damaged", and I do apologize if I offended you or anyone else.
Also,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I parent this way because my size advantage, age advantage, financial advantage and maturity will never give me the right to use force on another human being, especially one who is vehemently protesting said force.

I totally agree - I do not feel I have free reign to weild force over my child(ren).....so, I feel that's an unfair assessment of my (occasionally coersive) parenting...I negotiate and come up with alternative solutions with my son a LOT....but it doesn't happen all the time, and based on the nature of our relationship and his continued joyful disposition, pleasant temperament, and strong attachment to me, I'm assuming the times I do occasionally play a trump card are not damaging our relationship....because he does not vehemently protest anything we're doing. If he does, we do find an alternative that though he may still grumble, he is not having a screaming fit...and I don't believe it's because I've crushed his will - hoenstly the times I end up picking him up, or putting him into his carseat when he really didn't want to be, or whatever, it's just not that often. Take today - we were headed out, he was wandering the yard and found a branch with some pine needles on it. I told him it was time to get in the car, and as he was getting in, I started to take the branch from him saying, "why don't we leave this outside?" He protested...so, I said, "OK, didn't realize it was that important to you", and we made the trip with him happily waving a pine branch around the car. No big deal. So, there you go - no coersion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
However, I do believe that one can be heard, empathised with, talked with, validated, considered and respected 100% of the time even if we don't always get what we want 100% of the time.

Again, I totally agree with you. But to me, validated, considered, and respected does not always mean that the solution is going to make them happy (which is how I understand consensual/mutual living, that both parties are happy with the solution), because minor disappointment (which is different than vehemently protesting) or not being totally OK/happy with the solution is OK with me sometimes (including in my own life).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I reject the notion that just because human babies need their caregivers for a longer period of time, it means we as adults have free reign to impose our will over their bodies, choices, opinions, thoughts and actions.

I agree here too...and I take umbrage with "free reign"...I would never try to tell my child how to feel or prevent them from expressing their feelings. I might ask them to do it respectfully, but would never tell them they were wrong for feeling a certain way. What I am saying is that after attempts at tryign to find an agreeable solution, I am not against finding a *mostly* agreeable solution for my child and going with it...which means he may grumble, but he is not hysterical.

As I said previously, I would bet in practice our parenting day to day isn't really that much different.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
But to me, validated, considered, and respected does not always mean that it happens "their way"....it would likely wind up a compromise.

Exactly. Compromise is a reason for negotiating. I don't think Pat meant "negotiable" as in "you do what kids say"


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
That is interesting, so you believe that they turn 18 and something changes, that they then know - 'now I can be treated x way and should treat others x way' ? Fascinating! Maybe it is different for us because my kids don't go to school, so we are living in the "real", "adult" world always and it wouldn't make sense for them to not understand how adults treat each other or to treat children differently.

No certainly that is not it at all.
Everybody knows that the way to teach a child generosity is not to give them everythign they want, but to have them witness giving to others.
I think this is true of many other things.
And certainly of course a relationship progresses and doesnt automatically change at some arbitrary age. But even at 18, ones relationship with ones parents is a different sort of relationship than any other relationship. Even at 30 it usually is not the same as a peer relationship, but is closer.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
did i miss something. i definitely do not think above exmple is 'non negotiable'

Based on my limited knowledge of Scubamama's parenting style, that was just a joke.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
Based on my limited knowledge of Scubamama's parenting style, that was just a joke.

She's out tonight but it was a joke. There was a recent thread about *having* to get in the stroller and go for a walk.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
No certainly that is not it at all.

Well, what you said was:

Quote:

children learn about how people should be treated from how adults treat each other,
My question is if they are learning it from how adults treat adults - when and with whom do they use it? When do they earn the right to be treated in the same way? It just doesn't make sense to me and I think a big reason is the fact that my kids aren't in school so they really don't see this arbitrary divide in how people are treated. In their lives, all of the people they interact with are treated with respect and reference - from toddler to grandmas.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Everybody knows that the way to teach a child generosity is not to give them everythign they want, but to have them witness giving to others.

I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity. Just like I can't imagine a child learning about treating others with respect if they are not treated with respect.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Exactly. Compromise is a reason for negotiating. I don't think Pat meant "negotiable" as in "you do what kids say"

You know what - thanks for pointing this out to me. I'm going to go edit my post, cause "their way" isn't really what I meant....I can phrase it better to get my point across better.

ETA: OK, I changed my initial wording...does this make more sense?

But to me, validated, considered, and respected does not always mean that the solution is going to make them happy (which is how I understand consensual/mutual living, that both parties are happy with the solution), because minor disappointment (which is different than vehemently protesting) or not being totally OK/happy with the solution is OK with me sometimes (including in my own life).


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't really have a list of "non-negotiables" because I think there are so many variables in life that it usually comes down to the specific situation. At times I might force my kid into a carseat. Other times I might not.

Several non-life-threatening things that come to mind where I have forced my kid/s to do something they didn't want to:

1) Have a facial wound stitched (11 stitches, so it was a large wound for a small face)

2) Left a child with a sitter (my mother) during a sibling's surgery. The hospital specified that children under 18 were not allowed in the pre-op and recovery areas, and my dh and I felt my son needed his parents with him more than our daughter did. Yep, we could have left one parent at home with our daughter, but we felt it was more important that we both be there for our son (and each other).

3) Left my daughter with a sitter (my dad) when we went to Ethiopia to bring our son home. Yes, we could have (theoretically) taken her with us, had our son escorted, had only one of us go to Ethiopia, not adopted in the first place, or one of several other options I am sure that someone else could throw out. However, we felt that it was in our son's best interest that we both be there to meet him and spend time with him before we transported him halfway across the world, we couldn't afford to pay an extra $1400 to take our daughter along, we didn't think the trip would be enjoyable for our daughter, and we were concerned about potential health risks to her. So we "forced" her to stay with grandpa even though she said she wanted to go with us.

I guess I see certain situations as non-negotiable at certain times not because I can't think of myriad alternative ways to handle them but because there are times when the available alternatives are just not practical.

Namaste!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm a little late to the party, but OMG Captain Crunchy!







:







:







:







:







:

I agree with absolutely everything you said.

With I could explain things so clearly!


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

donosmommy04
MissRubyandKen, you know, I think when it comes down to it, a lot of us are probably a lot more alike than we're realizing....I think many of us are saying basically the same things, but in different ways, and with only minimal differences.
I'm new around here but I admit I have pondered this myself numerous times.

Quote:

donosmommy04
But to me, validated, considered, and respected does not always mean that the solution is going to make them happy (which is how I understand consensual/mutual living, that both parties are happy with the solution), because minor disappointment (which is different than vehemently protesting) or not being totally OK/happy with the solution is OK with me sometimes (including in my own life).
Sure, many times me or dc CHOOSE minor disappointment when consenting to something. KWIM? ie. Dd and ds want to watch a movie. Ds and dd both have a different choice. Ds is waving his choice around, jumping up and down, going on about how it is his favorite show and this and this happens and can he please please please please watch it. Dd sees how important this is to him and says, 'He can watch his mom, its okay with me.' Sure she was disappointed slightly but she CHOOSE that path. Or I may to agree to play a game of checkers with dd even though I had been planning on cuddling up with a book. She is excited and really wants to be with me, I consent knowing I'll have fun anyway and I can read later. Not exactly what I had in mind, not exactly what I wanted at that moment but okay anyway. There is a difference to consent and agreeable. Many things are agreeable between us, many things are consentual. I don't think I need to force my will on them for them to learn that minor disappointment is endurable.

Quote:

dharmamama
I guess I see certain situations as non-negotiable at certain times not because I can't think of myriad alternative ways to handle them but because there are times when the available alternatives are just not practical.
In an emergency room visit situation I imagine one would have to wing it. But I would like to point out that if it seems the available alternatives are not ones I could consent to I might focus on my dc and get ideas from them about how we might make the situation that might not change consent worthy for them. Make sense?
I want to give an example of when I did this, I know it is nowhere near as drastic as your's. Maybe it could help, maybe not.
We all decided just over one hour before sunset to make a trip to the park before we went to the store to get supplies for dinner. At sunset, when it was time to leave no way was leaving agreeable or even consentual to either of them even though we had discussed our plans before we left the house. It was getting dark and I knew my dc would be hungry and on the verge of meltdown before I could get food bought and prepared if we didn't leave right then, so staying was not something I would consent to. So I focused on leaving being consentual for them. I explained to both of them the need to get food to eat before we felt yucky and reminded ds he had wanted to pick up some apple juice because we had run out. He said oh and asked if we could get hot dogs too and then was ready to leave then. Dd was disappointed because she had been playing a fun game of tag. I told her I understood leaving fun was hard and asked her if she wanted a piggy back ride to the car. She said yes and was ready to leave.

Now I bet you probably did try to make leaving your dc behind with grandpa agreeable to her. I would have definitely put alot of energy into making the situation consent worthy for her. If she was verbal maybe grandpa could have asked her what might make it okay for her and made a list of promises he would keep to her while she was there? That is a drastic example. Seems to me most situations in daily life can be turned into something consentual with minimal effort.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

well i just thought of one - dinner before dessert - though it is possible that i would make an exception if we had had a nutritious snack late in the afternoon or something, in general, i will not leave this up to my dd. anyway i think that this is also in line with my overall paradigm in that i am taking a hard line now but will gradually withdraw.

AND wanted to say - we have never forced carseats because we have never forced cars. of course we have ALWAYS enforced carseat when in the car. But we don't use the car much and I am equally happy to walk, take a bus or whatever. Only ONCE we had no option and it was a long (2.5 hours) ride where we had some crying / protest in the middle and I had to use the display screen of the video camera and show her last bda party scenes to 'quieten' my dd in the carseat.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I would think that if something were *truly* Non-negotiable, we could all agree on it.

Why?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Well, what you said was:

My question is if they are learning it from how adults treat adults - when and with whom do they use it? When do they earn the right to be treated in the same way? It just doesn't make sense to me and I think a big reason is the fact that my kids aren't in school so they really don't see this arbitrary divide in how people are treated. In their lives, all of the people they interact with are treated with respect and reference - from toddler to grandmas.

What I am saying is that there are some intracacies of the parent/child relationship which do not translate to model to other relationships. And those things which seem to contradict how adults act to each other ,children learn from watching adult behavior.
They dont "earn the right" to be treated the same way. Parental responsibility for them wanes and their independance grows and the relationship evolves. There is no arbitrary limit.
For example, when a child is old enough to reliably not run into the street AND be aware enough of his/her surroundings so as to not accidentally step in front of traffic, he/she has earned the right to walk side by side rather than be held by the hand or confined in a way that would be unacceptable to an adult.
Becuase children are not adults, their requirements for independance and autonomy are not the same, as such treating them the same is not respectful of them or their development.
And I do not see that treating my child as a child models to them inappropriate ways to treat others. My child will not attempt to control his spouse or peers or coworkers by holding their hands when crossing the street simply because this is what I modeled to him at age 2.
My child will not learn that he has the right to force others to comply to his wishes simply because I forced him to be in a carseat or wear shoes.

When and with whom do children practice it? Every day and with people they meet all over. They watch how people treat each other and they use these behaviors all the time. With each other, siblings, peers, parents, teachers, the cashier at the grocery store.
Children often model how babies and small children are treated with their dolls or with smaller children, and still treat each other of the same age and older differently.
In my childrens lives everybody is also treated with respect.
Treating children as children with unique roles, and abilities and needs and not exactly as adults IS respectful in my opinion.
I do not believe that treating all people with respect equalls treating all people exactly the same though.
Joline


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity. Just like I can't imagine a child learning about treating others with respect if they are not treated with respect.

I agree. But when we treat a child with generosity without modeling it towards others the only thing we are teacing them is greed and materialism.

Also I agree that children will not learn to treat others with respect if they are not treated with respect. But as in my previous post, I thinkw e differ in how we define respectful treatment. I do not think children need to be treated as adults in order to be respected.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Colleen95: This is a non-invasive blood gluose monitor: http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/glucosemonitor/

HTH, Pat


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think of treating someone as an 'adult' or as a 'child', I try to treat people how they want to be treated. It has never been an issue here.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm coming in late, so forgive me here









I'd have to say that I would consider the *end result* of a situation basically "non-negotiable" when it is likely that someone (or something) will be harmed in the immediate future. (I say in the immediate future because I wouldn't apply this to, say, tooth brushing, or eating veggies lol)
So, if ds is hitting the dog, it HAS to stop. HOW it stops is negotiable, to a point. Meaning that I'm not going to allow him to keep hitting her, even if in that moment, THAT is not agreeable to him. But I'll redirect, give alternatives, and try to find some sort of agreeable solution, that doesn't involve hitting the dog. If, for some really strange odd reason, there is absolutely no agreeable solution that we can find in a short amount of time, then, sure, I'd be ok with coercing. But I can't really imagine that would be likely to happen, kwim?
If we're shopping, and ds doesn't want to be carried, or in the cart, and can't fight the temptation to run around where I can't see him, the end result is going to be either be carried, be in the cart, or stay close to me (there could be other options, but end result being that he's not running where I can't see him). I try to work on an agreeable way to get there. (I should say, that this rarely happens, and he generally loves being in the cart, or he'll stay close to me). In the meantime though, I'm not going to let him run off. If I don't have a cart and 2 heavy coats, and my purse, I can follow behind him, and am happy to do so. But with all that stuff, I can't easily leave the cart to follow wherever he wants to go. We might find some stuff to play with, some things to look at, he may play under the tall shelves (where the carseats are) for a while, whatever. I let him get his energy out. But, I'm not entirely opposed to picking him up, and taking him to another section of the store (like the toy section) where it will be easier for him to stay in one area.
So, I'm not sure exactly HOW that fits in.
But, I have to say that I think that kids learn best when they are not being coerced. When things ARE negotiable, and a mutually agreeable solution, or a consentual solution are reached. So, for that reason (and one of basic respect) I try to do what I can to not coerce.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Of course the parent child relationship is unique. That's what makes it so possible to live consensually with them. They look to their trusted mother naturally for information as to how the world works and how things are to be. In no way is force neccessary. I find it much easier to live consensually with my children than my dp, honestly. My children being my children makes it easier for me to be intuitive about underlying reasons for behavior I deem unacceptable and they are almost always quite willing to listen to me and accept my help.
Back to my forced toothbrushing example. My mind was so set that this was something that HAD TO BE DONE my mind was closed at the moment of the first refusal. It was not open to ideas and alternatives as it was in so many other instances and as it should have been in this one. I could have waited 15 minutes and asked again, I could have sought to understand why my child was refusing and done what I could to remedy it. What if the only reason had been becasue he was just so tired at that moment? I could have skipped one night of brushing. That would have been fine. I do not believe he would have then refused often just because 'he got his way' as he did when I turned it into a power struggle. I do not believe children are that way. My children are not that way. The 'this has to be done' mindset closed my mind unnecessarily.
I bet most of us have been forced to do things as children. That does not make it the right course. Many of us have been spanked too, we realize here that that is not the right course. A child who is daily forced to eat vegetables, wear socks or shoes, sit at the dinner table, get in the car seat, etc etc. surely will have more problems as a result than a child who is occasionally forced to do something against their will. I doubt anyone here is constantly daily forcing their will on their children because 'they know best'. Right?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

don't think anyone, non-coercive or otherwise wouldn't pull their child off the road if a Mack truck was seconds away from making them a pancake. Fortunately, those aren't situations that happen very often and I think hypothetical situations like that are a convenient way to deflect from talking about day to day situations that will occur 1000 times to every 1 mack truck incident.
Well...I don't know. I don't think these situations are THAT uncommon, especially in the life of the typical somewhat accident-prone and impulsive toddler. I brought up the popcorn-in-the-nose example elsewhere: my DD told us she had popcorn up her nose, and we ended up having to restrain her while the doctors examined her. I don't know how else we could have handled it, guys. We explained, empathized and distracted, but the popcorn could have been a danger and the exam was necessary. I can think of lots of things like that, where a toddler would have to hold still or experience a needle or take some unwanted medicine. I plan to take my DD to her first dentist appointment soon. I am seeking out the best kid-friendly dentist in town, and we will talk about it and play-act it and prepare her for it. I will try my hardest to make this easy and not a struggle. But if it comes down to it and she absolutely refuses to be examined, yes, we will probably employ a bit of gentle force. I am not, most likely (barring a total freak-out, which I don't foresee--probably some "No, no, I don't want to" and 30 seconds of crying) going to leave the office without having the exam. Maybe some of you would. I do not have that kind of money, and frankly I do not have that kind of total surrendering patience.

I also have continued to point out that when we allowed DD to control when her diaper was changed, she got an excruciatingly painful rash; no one has told me how I was supposed to handle this noncoercively, except by suggesting that we no longer use diapers, which I do not consider in any way practical. (How would we ever leave the house?) There's the toothbrushing example: some kids really don't want to brush their teeth, ever, and some of those kids have cavities and really need good oral hygiene. There's the "sometimes you really just HAVE to go somewhere" issue. I can think of a couple examples with my DD--once we were at a public playspace and her diaper was leaking poop, so I had to take her and change her for hygiene's sake, although she did not want to be changed at all right then. Once she was playing at the gate at the airport, and we had to board the plane or it would leave without us. Another poster gave an example of a child who did not want to leave home when another child needed to be picked up at school. What if your child does not want to get in the car to go to daycare, and you really have to go to work?

I'm not saying we shouldn't try all that we can to avoid the situation where we have to hold the child down for the exam or haul the crying toddler to the restroom for a change. Of course we should try. I always TRY, and try hard and creatively, but sometimes I do not succeed.

I just don't think these situations are all THAT rare. I don't think they're *common*, either--I mean, I'd say we end up having to force an issue maybe once a month, if that. Most of the time it works: distraction, negotiation, empathizing, playful parenting, offering alternatives, giving 5-minute warnings...yes it totally works! That's why I love this forum--I learn methods that work! But SOMETIMES it doesn't. At least in my house.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

MissRubyandKenA child who is daily forced to eat vegetables said:


> Well what do you mean by "force." It is pretty broadly defined by some here to mean telling your child they are expected to do something with no negotiation.
> 
> By that definition I do/did "force" my kids to do things on a daily basis including get in the car seat, sit at the table, pick up toys, clean their rooms, take a bath etc...
> 
> What I didn't do was invest much force into my force. There were seldom consequences for not doing what I asked except a reminder that this is what was expected of them. (Though I did gently place recalcitrent children in car seats when a sibling needed to be picked up on a tight schedule)


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
There's the toothbrushing example: some kids really don't want to brush their teeth, ever, and some of those kids have cavities and really need good oral hygiene. There's the "sometimes you really just HAVE to go somewhere" issue. I can think of a couple examples with my DD--once we were at a public playspace and her diaper was leaking poop, so I had to take her and change her for hygiene's sake, although she did not want to be changed at all right then. Once she was playing at the gate at the airport, and we had to board the plane or it would leave without us. Another poster gave an example of a child who did not want to leave home when another child needed to be picked up at school. What if your child does not want to get in the car to go to daycare, and you really have to go to work?

Yes, that's pretty much how I think of it, too. I do not beat around the bush with my kids when the outcome of something is non-negotiable. If we have to leave to pick Daddy up at the bus stop, then we are going to leave to do it, even if the kids don't want to. They can pick whatever coat they want (or no coat), whatever shoes they want (or no shoes), what we listen to on the radio, whether they take a snack, which of the zillion stuffed animals populating and procreating in our house that they take along, heck, they can even choose what coat and shoes *I* wear if it makes them feel better, but they WILL be getting in the car to go get Daddy. They have no choice about that. I don't try to humor my kids by distracting them from the fact that they must do what I want them to. I state absolutely and clearly that this is what we will be doing, now what do you want to do to make this situation tolerable?

Namaste!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
A child who is daily forced to eat vegetables, wear socks or shoes, sit at the dinner table, get in the car seat, etc etc. surely will have more problems as a result than a child who is occasionally forced to do something against their will.

ITA with this, and would even go so far as to say that a child who is occasionally 'forced' to do something they may not want to *at that moment*, in an otherwise vastly gentle, consensual, alternative seeking, loving household will not have ANY problems. I'm living proof. I'm sure my parents coerced me into brushing my teeth sometimes, getting in the car sometimes, going grocery shopping when I didn't *really* want to sometimes....and I can't think of any problems it has caused me. Because, on the whole, I was listened to, validated, considered, respected, and loved.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
I doubt anyone here is constantly daily forcing their will on their children because 'they know best'. Right?

I would bet our day to day lives don't look all that different, those of us who are strictly noncoersive, and those of us who try to be, but don't always succeed for whatever reason. I don't think ANYONE here starts the day out saying, "gee, I wonder what I can force my kid to do today?"


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Well what do you mean by "force." It is pretty broadly defined by some here to mean telling your child they are expected to do something with no negotiation.

By that definition I do/did "force" my kids to do things on a daily basis including get in the car seat, sit at the table, pick up toys, clean their rooms, take a bath etc...

What I didn't do was invest much force into my force. There were seldom consequences for not doing what I asked except a reminder that this is what was expected of them. (Though I did gently place recalcitrent children in car seats when a sibling needed to be picked up on a tight schedule)
I don't believe making a request equates force if that is what you mean. My children usually are willing to fulfill my requests with no negotiation. That doesn't make my requests equal to force because they choose to fulfill it themselves. Force to me would be if the child's refuses and then 'I don't care if you like aspauragus you'll sit at that table until every last bite is gone', 'pick up your toys or no movie', if you don't brush your teeth I'm putting your lovey up for the night', or parent pinning child down to brush teeth, or restraining them to put on clothes, or picking child up and forcing them into the bath.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I think the difference in our opinions on the particulars of GD (as I saw in many threads about coercive/non-coercive, and this negotiable/non-negotiable thread) come from the difference in one of our core believes.

It seems that some of us firmly believe that no matter what, the parent is, how shall I say it, the head figure in family life. Yes, the parent will be gentle, considerate and respectful. Yes, the parent will attentively hear child's point of view. Yes, the parent will go great length to educate him/herself on many subjects as pertains to parenting. But at the end of the day, it is the parent that will make a final decision and if need be, impose this decision on the kids because he/she felt it was best. Kinda "benevolent ruler" if you will

Then there are others that believe that the family is a homogenous entity, where albeit the parent has more experience, knowledge, physical strength, he/she is an equal "part of the clan".

One is not better or worse than another. Just some of us identify ourselves as former and some as latter


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Well what do you mean by "force." It is pretty broadly defined by some here to mean telling your child they are expected to do something with no negotiation.

By that definition I do/did "force" my kids to do things on a daily basis including get in the car seat, sit at the table, pick up toys, clean their rooms, take a bath etc...

What I didn't do was invest much force into my force. There were seldom consequences for not doing what I asked except a reminder that this is what was expected of them. (Though I did gently place recalcitrent children in car seats when a sibling needed to be picked up on a tight schedule)

I don't necessarily see this as force- "telling your child they are expected to do something with no negotiation." And I agree with what MissRubyandKen said in response to it.
I think that expectations are a completely different thing. Especially when there are no bribes, threats, physical force, no consequences for choosing otherwise, etc. Which, ultimately, leaves the choice up to the kid. That's the way your posts read, anyways. I'm guessing that they choose to do the "acceptable" thing most of the time.
Not everything has to be negotiable to be considered non-coercive, imo. Or consentual.

Tbh, I don't think that falls under force at all. Have you read TCC? They have a lot of expectations for their kids, but they don't coerce anyone to do anything (as far as the book says). The kids do what is expected, because it's expected. Not "I expect you to x" which implies that you don't really expect they would do x unless told to do so. But they just expect that their kids WILL do the socially acceptable thing.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
One is not better or worse than another.

I wish everyone here believed that. Or at least acted like they did.









Namaste!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Bolding is my emphasis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
I think the difference in our opinions on the particulars of GD (as I saw in many threads about coercive/non-coercive, and this negotiable/non-negotiable thread) come from the difference in one of our core believes.

It seems that some of us firmly believe that no matter what, the parent is, how shall I say it, the head figure in family life. *Yes, the parent will be gentle, considerate and respectful. Yes, the parent will attentively hear child's point of view.* Yes, the parent will go great length to educate him/herself on many subjects as pertains to parenting. But at the end of the day, it is the parent that will make a final decision and *if need be*, impose this decision on the kids because he/she felt it was best. Kinda "benevolent ruler" if you will

Then there are others that believe that the family is a homogenous entity, where albeit the parent has more experience, knowledge, physical strength, he/she is an equal "part of the clan".

One is not better or worse than another. Just some of us identify ourselves as former and some as latter

irinam, I think this is a REALLY good observation.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
One is not better or worse than another. Just some of us identify ourselves as former and some as latter

I guess it depends on if you are the parent or the child to wheather one's opinion agrees with this statement or not. The child's perception makes it so, not just intent of the parent.

It has been with a heavy heart that I have read about the extensive use of coercion, rules enforcement, non-negotiation and ignoring a child's emotional expressions of dissent that are repeatedly condoned on this site. I try to see how and why this prevails, and I do see that some choose to live as the one who makes the rules and others choose to honor the autonomy of the individual to make decisions about their own body. I will forever contest others usurping the right of the child or another to decide for himself. And some try to find a cooperative way, until they get frustrated, impatient and default to force to get their way.

But, seeing these parenting philosophies advocated, espoused and embraced is sucking the joy out of the life that I *choose* to live without the use of coercion and force.

Gotta go.

Pat


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

And some try to find a cooperative way, until they get frustrated, impatient and default to force to get their way.
You know, the way you phrase this makes it sound like the things in question are just things the parent selfishly wants. It's like you think we're all holding our kids down to force them to wear the green hairbow, not the blue one, because we think it looks cuter.

Yes, at times I default to force to "get my way" if "my way" is "making sure my child is safe and healthy." It is not about a power struggle and wanting to "win."

If it this board sucks the life out of you solely because not everyone here is completely noncoercive/TCS, perhaps another site where everyone IS noncoercive would be a better place for you. I'm not saying this snarkily. But I don't think this board will ever be 100% noncoercive/TCS, and I think it is unproductive to bemoan the fact that it is not.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I don't think of treating someone as an 'adult' or as a 'child', I try to treat people how they want to be treated. It has never been an issue here.

Yet I see a difference. A child might want to be allowed to run across the parking lot and an adult might want the same thing.
However because we care for and love our child and are responsible for them we might intervene, but if our spouse or friend were running around a parking lot we would respect their freedom (and responsibility to keep themselves alive)
Both want to be treated with respect to their freedom and personal autonomy. But I certainly would not treat them the same.
So yes, I think that respect is treating someone as they want to be treated. HOwever I think that there are limits to how that can be acommodated for children.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Yet I see a difference. A child might want to be allowed to run across the parking lot and an adult might want the same thing.

I seriously doubt a child has a burning desire to "run across a parking lot" they might, however, have a strong desire to run and you might happen to be in a parking lot. So, we would talk about what is happening in the parking lot and find a safe way to have the need met. Dh has never wanted to run across a parking lot either - but I would also explain to him that it might not be the best spot









It boils down to a belief that kids are rational beings. I understand that hasn't been your experience with your children. I'm just saying it has been and continues to be the experience I have had with my two very different dds - both are rational and neither has a death wish. Even my dd that regularly climbs 30 feet up the tree out front


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I guess it depends on if you are the parent or the child to wheather one's opinion agrees with this statement or not. The child's perception makes it so, not just intent of the parent.

Good point. May be that is why I always identified myself as "latter" (part-of-the-clan type of parent)?

However I did see very good points made by "the other side" (for the lack of better definition) and learned from mamas insights.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I do see that some choose to live as the one who makes the rules and others choose to honor the autonomy of the individual to make decisions about their own body.

Another good point and interesting restatement of what I said. Would like to think more about it / read thoughts of others on this


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I have been thinking about this thread so much, and I happened to read some words of Thich Nhat Hanh's that pretty much sums up how I think about being a parent and being part of a family: "...because if you are a teacher and you have much more experience and insight, your vote has more value than the vote of a novice who has not got much insight and experience...we have done that with a lot of success in our community, because the younger and less experienced people always have faith and respect toward the elder ones." This resonates with me so deeply. I have great respect for those with more experience, more information, more knowledge regarding something than I have. Those who go before us often do have more insight, and with their insight and experience do make better or more fully informed decisions than those of us with less experience. Not always, to be sure, but often. And I think this applies to the parent-child relationship. Children, without question, do have less experience and insight to bring to life and decision making-as they grow they gain more.

I am not at all interested in turning my family into a mini dictatorship, where dh and I make all the decisions without consideration of our children. I do put a lot of time and effort into taking into consideration the needs, feelings, preferences and desires of my children. I do put a lot of time and effort into including them in many of the day to day decisions we must make, I do put a lot of time and effort into trying to make our days and decisions comfortable for all of us and to making decisions and plans that will meet everyone's needs-the children's needs and the adult's needs.

I also believe that part of respecting my children is respecting the fact that solely _because of their age_, not because of their inherent worth as people, my children have more limited information, more limited knowledge and insight, more limited experience, more limited understanding, and more limited decision-making skills than I or my husband. My children are every bit as valuable as people as any adult. My children are every bit as deserving of respect and compassion as any adult. However, my children are not equipped to make many of the decisions about life that must be made-not on their own. They need guidance. In other words, because of my greater experience and insight my vote "counts" more. Not because I am omniscient, not because I'm worth more, not because I am infallible, but simply because I know and understand more and am better able to make certain decisions and judgments.

As an example, I do not believe it is at all respectful to my child to allow them to wear a dirty diaper until they get a rash because they don't want to take the diaper off. My child who is still in diapers cannot understand fully the consequence of the decision to wear the dirty diaper, that consequence being a rash (which for my children are painful). I do believe that simply allowing my child to wear a dirty diaper until she has a rash is not respecting her bodily integrity. I do believe it is possible most of the time to remove the diaper from a reluctant child without force. I want nothing more than to avoid using force with my children, and the vast majority of the time I am able to do so. I am able to engage in daily living without the use of coercion or punishment or manipulation or rewards-but that doesn't mean that I don't have rules or expectations or that sometimes my kids do things that they really don't want so much to do. We are able to cooperate well enough, the vast majority of the time, to live happily and peacefully together while meeting everyone's needs. Have I ever used force or coercion? Yes, but not until I had made exhaustive effort to avoid it and I have never taken it lightly. I'm human, so it has happened. I don't think any mom her takes the use of force or coercion lightly, I think we all do our best to avoid it. Being human, we don't always. (I also don't think the terms "force" and "coercion" really fit what a lot of moms here actually do.)

As a parent I must make what seems like a thousand decisions a day, including the decision of what kind of and how much input into each decision is appropriate for my children to have. I put a great deal of care and thought into including my children in the decisions that affect them. I do a great deal of talking with my children. I do a lot of learning right along with my children. I strive always for cooperation, I always expect to be able to find a way for us all to cooperate, and most of the time I am successful in finding cooperation. But there are times when I am better equipped to make a final decision than my child is, there are times when it is my responsibility to protect my child's health and well-being, and there are things I wish my child to learn. I am not infallible, I do know this. But I am my children's guide and I am doing the best that I can. My children are happy. I don't think that's too terrible.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
I think the difference in our opinions on the particulars of GD (as I saw in many threads about coercive/non-coercive, and this negotiable/non-negotiable thread) come from the difference in one of our core believes.

It seems that some of us firmly believe that no matter what, the parent is, how shall I say it, the head figure in family life. Yes, the parent will be gentle, considerate and respectful. Yes, the parent will attentively hear child's point of view. Yes, the parent will go great length to educate him/herself on many subjects as pertains to parenting. But at the end of the day, it is the parent that will make a final decision and if need be, impose this decision on the kids because he/she felt it was best. Kinda "benevolent ruler" if you will


Yes. This is eactly how I parent. I don't make rules or "coerce" (in the sense of being the rule maker) because I am frustrated or tired.

This is the way I run my family. I believe with all my heart that it is what is best for my child. That they need to grow over time in their judgment/decision making and impulse control abilites and that it is my job to provide these things for them until they do.

There are many things I believe can and should be negotiated and that list grows and grows as my children get older. But there are some that I do not believe should be and those deicsions reamin for us non-negotiable.

I am gentle in that while I make the rules I certainly consider my child's thoughts and feelings. And I don't use consequences to enforce those rules unless it seems necessary (to me) to protect their person or the person or property of another.

But my rules/expectations do not go away.

I am sad that Subamama feels that this way of parenting, which is the way I was parented and which brought joy to my life and appears to be bringing great joy to my children's lives somehow effects her joy.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
But, seeing these parenting philosophies advocated, espoused and embraced is sucking the joy out of the life that I *choose* to live without the use of coercion and force.


Maybe now would be a good time to let you know that I come here to work out things on a more philosophical level and for "intellectual entertainment" as Piglet put it. Often times, when I'm working out the issue of coercion, it's on this level and it may appear that I have more tendencies towards this than what is actually going on between my child and myself.

I am also often very confused regarding the issue of force. I'm not sure if we're talking about physical force or "cognitive manipulation" as you put it recently. The issue of cognitive manipulation is VERY complex for me. For instance, I don't understand what is significant about the difference between not exposing your child (censoring, imo) to some unwanted thing and just not letting them have it.

We're also dealing with all of our perceptions of ourselves. I, personally, see myself as very coercive and manipulative and I come here to work out those issues. I don't think this is an accurate way to describe myself ~ it's just what I choose to work on. If my goal was to be more authoritative or controlling, you might see me talking more about how "permissive" or how burdened I feel by having to find common preferences with my child.

Why do I say that? Because you seem to feel really badly about what you read here and it's important to me that you know that, at least for me, you're only seeing a limited part of how I process parenting.

But then I struggle with this because I am not able to live the live I would like to live. I'm a little jealous that you are able to find a way to live a non-coercive life with your family. The culture where I live is messed up and that is really sad to me and it gets in the way of many, many of my ideals. And, it makes me a little mad to read that that you're feeling sucked of joy to read about my challanges.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I guess it depends on if you are the parent or the child to wheather one's opinion agrees with this statement or not. The child's perception makes it so, not just intent of the parent.

And those of us who know our children, and live with them and hold them and love them and listen to them and understand them are in a pretty good position to be aware of this for our own children I believe.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
But, seeing these parenting philosophies advocated, espoused and embraced is sucking the joy out of the life that I *choose* to live without the use of coercion and force.

Gotta go.

Pat

I'm sorry that you're letting the way other people choose to live their lives suck the joy out of yours...I don't let other people's lifestyle choices affect me that way.

What troubles me is that while you espouse being very tolerant towards your child's opinions, desires, and needs, you seem pretty intolerant towards others and unwilling to explore the possibilty that any lifestyle other than what *you* believe in could be a loving, respectful family and result in well adjusted, independent, generous, happy individuals.

I can speak from the experience of my childhood, and state to you unequivocally that though I was sometimes coerced in my early childhood, my parents were very gentle, loving, respectful parents and I have grown up to be a fulfilled adult with no residual issues.

I also still believe that if we all lived in each others' households for a few days, we'd see that ourlives are much more similar than different.

I hope you can somehow come to peace with the fact that not everyone is going to parent or live their life like you, but that doesn't mean that they aren't living gently and lovingly.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

My mil and sil have two little dogs. They are sweet and cute and loving. However, they are *crate-trained* which I don't believe in but that is another post. They spend all their time in their tiny cages when my mil and sil are out and then they are let out for a couple of hours when they are home, then when it is time for bed they are put in their little cages for 9 hours at night.

When we visit, they _seem_ happy and loving and run around and let you pet them and lick you and all that.

That life is all they know. Would they be happier if they were allowed to run and play and be free in the home all day and night and allowed to lay where they wish and walk where they wish? I imagine they would.

I am not saying that parents here keep their children in cages, but I am using the analogy because I see many parents say how happy and healthy and well adjusted their kids are despite the fact that they are forced to do certain things and coerced and despite the fact that they know their place in the home as being under the authority of their parents. Would they be happier if they were not coerced at all? Who knows? I can only speculate on how _*I*_ feel when I feel like I am being coerced or forced or told what to do.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

sledg,


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
sledg,
































:


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I love Pat and I love her passion for children everywhere. It is honestly beautiful to witness. I just shared a story with her on the phone and for some reason think maybe it would help here.

We are unschoolers, as most of you know, and on the unschooling boards there is the phenomena of people creating this unschooling composite family and then finding that they don't measure up. In this composite family the dd just wrote a symphony and the ds biked across the nation raising money for charity while the other dd wrote and published her first novel - you get the idea. Well, no one family can live up to this. These are individual accomplishments that span multiple families and multiple years. So we remind the newbies to focus on the every day joy and trust their children.

I think a similar thing happens here. Here we have a composite family that is coercive  No one family on MDC is anywhere NEAR as coercive as this composite family. No one family - forces the stroller, car seat, toothbrush, vegetables, coat wearing, diaper changing, sleeping, etc., etc. every day. These are all moments in time of families that are struggling with individual issues.

Would I love to see the responses all be - listen to you child, find a common preference - heck yes!! BUT I see so many intentional parents that are crazy about their kids. Unfortunately, in the scheme of things that is pretty rare. So while, we (CL parents) get frustrated with the "other side" and the "other side" gets frustrated with us - it isn't something that should suck joy  If it is then maybe it is time for a break and some fresh air. MDC will still be here and there will be a new toothbrushing and "back talking" threads next week/month -









I'm not trying to be trite. I really think we are a lot closer than we think. I think we polarize for discussion purposes and that can get dicey.

OK, I'm rambling and may not even have a point but I'm going to hit submit anyway -


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
can only speculate on how _*I*_ feel when I feel like I am being coerced or forced or told what to do.

You make such an excellent point here and I really want to remark on it.
I feel the exact same way and I would venture to bet that our temperaments are very different. And what you feel when beign coerced and forced or told what to do is likely very different from how I feel in the same situation.
And as you anticipate your children will likely feel similarly to the way you do, I imagine we all likely project those feelings in a similar way.
Thankfully, while it is no guarantee, our childrens temperaments do have a genetic base so hopefully it is more likely that our children will have more similar temperaments to us than different. (of course it depends 50% on the temperament of dad too!) In which case those of us who imagine how our child would feel based on how WE would feel are more likely to be right based on our own children than with the general population.
(although as is the case with my oldest, her temperament is a 180 from mine and that does make it a challenge to even imagine how she might feel. My best bet is to think "how would I feel" and then guess the opposite!







)

Thank you for raising such an excellent point on how our own personality and temperament plays into this.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Thank you for raising such an excellent point on how our own personality and temperament plays into this
I think temperment plays a big role, and I strive to be non-coercive in the event that our daughter has a spirit like mine. If she has a spirit like my sister's, there would be no need really to strive to be non-coercive, because her spirit is such that she is so agreeable and easygoing and go with the flow kind of personality -- that being non-coercive would be an absolute breeze with her. Mom says "sweetie, we are going to the store can you please put your shoes on?" and sis says "sure sounds good!"

That is how some children's temperment's are and if you have children like that, then there is little need to even mull over coerciveness because by mere default you are never really coercing them because they are so generally agreeable....

That is where the paradox is. If you have a child with a spirit like mine, an independent, thinking, questioning, "I wanna do it myseeeelllf" type of personality, coercion and force is going to be hell of a lot more of a struggle than striving to live consensually. Everything becomes a power struggle or has the tendency to... so why would someone willingly set themselves up for that? The other alternative, which my parents employed, was to be tougher, more strict, more punitive... which didn't work out too well either because as soon as I got out from under their control I did whatever I wanted anyway -- and I think participated in much more destructive behavior than I otherwise would have.

So, if my daughter has my sister's temperment, parenting should be a breeze in many respects. "Honey, do you want to brush your teeth?" "Okay!!" (runs for toothbrush)....but if my daughter has the spirit I have, "honey do you want to brush your teeth?" would be met with "I don't wanna, why, I am doing something right now, I don't feel like it, why do I have to, can I do it tomorrow, I hate my toothbrush, who invented toothbrushes, what ingredients are in toothpaste, what are toothbrushes made of, let me finish building my castle...." ... and I am so much more in favor of working _with_ her, than _against_ her and forcing her to do something against her will.

To me that accomplishes what _*I*_ want in the short term, but is damaging in the long term...


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I believe, as others have stated, that it is vitally important to remember that what we read here at MDC always represents only a small slice of any family's life-and even then it's an inadequate representation that does not allow the reader full understanding of that slice of life. Personally, I can never write a post that accurately and fully represents my thoughts or any given situation. I imagine it's the same for everyone else here. Communication is tricky enough between two people in person, it's much more tricky among many people via the internet.

I think it is also vitally important to remember that each parent who posts on this board has only the best of intentions for their child. I think that each parent who posts here also has good intentions toward their fellow parents and the children of their fellow parents. Though our ideas may differ, I don't think our goals differ all that much. We want to help each other, we want to be helped, we want to do what's best for our children.

I think that at times we all end up in the midst of communication that isn't working terribly well, and we find ourselves feeling misunderstood and misunderstanding others. We cling to our ideas steadfastly at times, and it affects how we understand the people with whom we are communicating.

I want to reach out to Pat right now, who is hurting, and say that I am very grateful for the opportunity to hear her ideas. I think Pat wants nothing more than to promote peaceful family living and a peaceful society. It is not always easy to hear what others have to say, and it is not always easy to communicate in ways that might allow others to open up to our ideas and thoughts in ways that lead to satisfying discussion. I admire Pat's willingness to share her ideas and her willingness to invite us to engage in discussion. I may not always understand what Pat is trying to say (meaning, I don't feel I have any understanding of what life in Pat's home looks like), and I may not always agree (more often, I just don't know if I agree) but I am always grateful for the opportunity to hear what she has to say. I am truly sorry your heart is so heavy right now. You have an amazing vision of the peace that is possible in the world.

I admire every mother who comes to this board to bare her soul, to share her ideas, to offer to others what support and help she is able. This is a wonderful community. Even when we disagree.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I really respect the impulse to parent 100% non-coercively. It sounds like an ideal to which I should aspire.

BUT - and here is the rub - it does not seem to make sense in light of what I know about how the brain develops, and the psychology of the growing child in general.

Those of you who are firmly non-coercive (is that an oxymoron?







) - what led you to this path? If you are a promoter of this "Taking Children Seriously" movement, are you a believer in the Objectivist philosophy underlying it?

I think that especially for people who were harmed in childhood, something called "taking children seriously" is very attractive. It speaks to what we DIDN'T get growing up - no one took us seriously. However, when you look at the actual movement, it is just Ayn Rand for kids. And I find Objectivism to be completely unrealistic, among other things.

One of the basic tenets of TCS is that children are rational beings. Umm, hello??? ADULTS are not rational beings. Look around you. Is the world we live in rational? Are resources allocated rationally? Do you behave more rationally than not? I don't.

'Rationality', besides being in the eye of the beholder (I think I am paraphrasing a Virginia Woolf quote on this one) is but a part of our human nature. It does not seem that believing that we and our children are 100%, or even preponderantly, rational is in harmony with embracing our full humanity.

So those are some of my thoughts as I read countless threads on this forum to get a sense of where I want to go as a parent. Intentional parenting, yes. Gentle parenting, yes. But parenting with the belief and expectation that both I and my child can behave rationally and in mutually acceptable ways, in all situations? That doesn't even make sense to me.

I think I have more to say but of course, I have a little DD who needs me! I just wanted to add my $.2 and maybe get an answer to these questions that are bugging me about TCS.

Elizabeth


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Umm, hello??? ADULTS are not rational beings. Look around you. Is the world we live in rational? Are resources allocated rationally? Do you behave more rationally than not? I don't
...and that is what rubs me the wrong way about parents. They will admit that in one sentence, then in the next wax poetic about how they are their child's authority on what is rational and just. To me, children are often more rational than adults in many situations. Adults just see certain behaviors as irrational and I find it worthy of mentioning that usually the child's "irrational" behavior is the opposite of the parents' agenda at that given moment









ETA: consensual living is not TCS. Though I find TCS facinating and do agree with *some* of its philosophy, it is not the same as living consensually.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
But, seeing these parenting philosophies advocated, espoused and embraced is sucking the joy out of the life that I *choose* to live without the use of coercion and force.

Pat, I bear you no ill will, but it's statements like this that diminish my enjoyment of visiting MDC. I come to MDC for interesting discussions. I enjoy lively and even heated debate. But when it gets into comments that imply that "If you don't believe what I believe and do what I do then your children are suffering," well, that really, really turns me off. The thing that unites us all on MDC is our desire to be the best parents we can be. If someone else's (or many people's) sincere efforts to do that are actually sucking the joy out of your life, well, to me what that means is that you are not very open to other people's differing ideas and lifestyles, not that you have found a superior way to parent.

Namaste!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
My mil and sil have two little dogs. They are sweet and cute and loving. However, they are *crate-trained* which I don't believe in but that is another post. They spend all their time in their tiny cages when my mil and sil are out and then they are let out for a couple of hours when they are home, then when it is time for bed they are put in their little cages for 9 hours at night.

When we visit, they _seem_ happy and loving and run around and let you pet them and lick you and all that.

That life is all they know. Would they be happier if they were allowed to run and play and be free in the home all day and night and allowed to lay where they wish and walk where they wish? I imagine they would.

I am not saying that parents here keep their children in cages, but I am using the analogy because I see many parents say how happy and healthy and well adjusted their kids are despite the fact that they are forced to do certain things and coerced and despite the fact that they know their place in the home as being under the authority of their parents. Would they be happier if they were not coerced at all? Who knows? I can only speculate on how _*I*_ feel when I feel like I am being coerced or forced or told what to do.

First I would like to say that one way in which this is no accurate comparison is because unlike with parenting. Even owners who are crate training animals acknowledge that this is something they are doing for their own convenience. and except in the case of a young puppy who is chewing and can seriously harm himself by eating inadvisable things when unattended, this is not an issue of what is best for the dog, but best for the owner.
In addition can we TRULY objectively say that the dog woudl be happier?
One reason for crate training in the first place is that dogs are den animals. They prefer to rest and sleep in small enclosed spaces, they feel safer.
And they also sleep much of the day.
So while they certainly would not choose to be locked in all day and all night every day, we may overestimate how much they dislike this treatment based on our own biases.
And even usign the "despite the fact" that children are coerced etcetera relies on the presumption that coercion is by default negative. Perhaps children are happy "because of the fact" .

I for one dont think my childrne are happy, joyful and well adjusted "despite" the fact that I am coercive. Any more than they are happy, joyful and well adjusted "despite" the fact that I have brown hair. Or despite the fact that they have siblings.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I want to reach out to Pat right now, who is hurting, and say that I am very grateful for the opportunity to hear her ideas. I think Pat wants nothing more than to promote peaceful family living and a peaceful society. It is not always easy to hear what others have to say, and it is not always easy to communicate in ways that might allow others to open up to our ideas and thoughts in ways that lead to satisfying discussion. I admire Pat's willingness to share her ideas and her willingness to invite us to engage in discussion. I may not always understand what Pat is trying to say (meaning, I don't feel I have any understanding of what life in Pat's home looks like), and I may not always agree (more often, I just don't know if I agree) but I am always grateful for the opportunity to hear what she has to say. I am truly sorry your heart is so heavy right now. You have an amazing vision of the peace that is possible in the world.

ITA with every word of that







Pat


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
However, when you look at the actual movement, it is just Ayn Rand for kids. And I find Objectivism to be completely unrealistic, among other things.

get an answer to these questions that are bugging me about TCS.

I don't care for Ayn Rand OR TCS







but we still choose to live consensually because it is what works best for our family. I do find my children to be incredibly rational so I guess we differ there.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Pat -























Quote:

"...because if you are a teacher and you have much more experience and insight, your vote has more value than the vote of a novice who has not got much insight and experience...we have done that with a lot of success in our community, because the younger and less experienced people always have faith and respect toward the elder ones."
It is precisely because my dc have faith, respect, and trust in me that makes living with them consensually highly possible. Of course they understand I have more life experience and knowledge. They do not need to be forced into that role, they have accepted this as real and true from birth without the 'proof' of force.

One reason not to force a child against their will would be so they don't have unnecessary, unwelcome feelings they would not otherwise have- like feeling aggression towards their mother. What child would want to feel agressive towards their mother? There lies a possible tangled mess of inner emotions for being forced to do something- anger, aggression, guilt, shame, etc. I challenge everyone here to truly think how they would feel if forced to do something- TRULY to theirselves and give me a reason why their child wouldn't experience something similar. I find it hard to believe there is anyone who is okay with being forced by threats, intimidation, or physical force to the point that they would not feel angry ar agressive about it.

What if you empty your mind of 'the poopy diaper HAS to get changed' -like thoughts. Of course the poopy diaper has to be removed if there is a child who was in a diaper and pooped, we all know that. BUT if your mind is emptied of 'this HAS to be done' you will likely be more open to alternatives besides force if and when a child refuses IN THAT MOMENT.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
I find it hard to believe there is anyone who is okay with being forced by threats, intimidation, or physical force to the point that they would not feel angry ar agressive about it.

What if you empty your mind of 'the poopy diaper HAS to get changed' -like thoughts. Of course the poopy diaper has to be removed if there is a child who was in a diaper and pooped, we all know that. BUT if your mind is emptied of 'this HAS to be done' you will likely be more open to alternatives besides force.

Frankly, I'm not seeing the "threats, intimidation or physical force" when I read threads here. Okay, sometimes I read about physical force as a last resort.

Truly, the mamas I see here at MDC are all about finding ways of not reaching the point of force. No mama wants to force her kids. No one here wants to use threats or intimidation. We're all on the same page here. We want to work _with_ our kids.

You know, I do think in terms of "the poopy diaper must be changed so my child doesn't get a rash" and immediately thereafter I think "how can I help my child agree to being changed, what would make it acceptable to her so that she willingly cooperates."

This is where I am so very confused. I don't see two warring factions here. I see moms who think they are the leaders or guides of their children, who also want to find ways of cooperating with their children (sort of "leaving the diaper on is not agreeable to me (as the mother) and I do not believe it is truly agreeable to my child (she doesn't understand she'll get a rash and if she did she wouldn't want to leave the diaper on) so I'm going to work with my child to find a way to change the diaper in a way that is okay with her). I see moms who talk about living consensually and finding mutually agreeable solutions-finding solutions that both the child and parent find acceptable and which both participate in willingly. I am honestly not seeing the difference between the two. So either I am very stupid, or people are not explaining themselves well.

Officially frustrated.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

This is where I am so very confused. I don't see two warring factions here. I see moms who think they are the leaders or guides of their children, who also want to find ways of cooperating with their children (sort of "leaving the diaper on is not agreeable to me (as the mother) and I do not believe it is truly agreeable to my child (she doesn't understand she'll get a rash and if she did she wouldn't want to leave the diaper on) so I'm going to work with my child to find a way to change the diaper in a way that is okay with her). I see moms who talk about living consensually and finding mutually agreeable solutions-finding solutions that both the child and parent find acceptable and which both participate in willingly. I am honestly not seeing the difference between the two. So either I am very stupid, or people are not explaining themselves well.
Truly I have thought on this myself and wondered if we are all saying basically the same thing. But why would someone argue against not using force if they have no intention of using force? I admit I am confused too. And I THINK we all are against threats and intimidation as force. So why argue against the idea of living consensually if you are opposed to using force? Just in case there is a tough moment and one feels they MUST use force or because some truly believe it is their right and duty to their children to use force if it is 'for their own good' even though there is likely an alternative?


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Frankly, I'm not seeing the "threats, intimidation or physical force" when I read threads here. Okay, sometimes I read about physical force as a last resort.

Here is one recent thread to give you an idea.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=403335


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't think we are saying the same things at all. I think we all love our children and I *think* we can all agree that we have decided to employ gentle methods in interacting with them. That is where the crossroads comes in.

I maintain that mutually agreeable solutions can almost always be found and I enter every single interaction with my child with that intention and determination to find it -- if a mutually agreeable solution can't be found at the moment...my rule is "doubt means don't" ... it is not worht a power struggle, or worse, resorting to force for things like brushing teeth or whatever. Barring CLEAR CUT cases of life or death, a decision doesn't have to be made that minute, or in that situation and can always be revisited.

More authoritative parents (or how I read it anyway) are all for being gentle with their children, but when it comes down to a decision between what a child may need or want or what the parent feels is best for them (if it happens to conflict), the parent is the final authority .. and force will be used if necessary.. even if that force is *gentle*.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes to CC's post.

I also sense that there is a different level of "trust" in kids abilities to reason and understand, hence the notion of limiting the allowable freedom of choice in fear (strong word, sorry!) that the choice made by a child will be a "wrong" one or "unacceptable" (by whom?) one.

Reading posts here and from my own experience I am often surprised by the choices my and others kids make/made when TRULLY given freedom to do so.

Food comes to mind - in our household it was never held as anything but means for not going hungry, so complete freedom there. "Even" my 5 yo is making healthy choices









(I know I am throwing ideas all over the place here, excuse my messy process of "realizing through analyzing" of my parenting. Much of it was/is done intuitively so I never took time to really take it apart and verbalize it)


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Yes to CC's post.

I also sense that there is a different level of "trust" in kids abilities to reason and understand, hence the notion of limiting the allowable freedom of choice in fear (strong word, sorry!) that the choice made by a child will be a "wrong" one or "unacceptable" (by whom?) one.

Reading posts here and from my own experience I am often surprised by the choices my and others kids make/made when TRULLY given freedom to do so.

Food comes to mind - in our household it was never held as anything but means for not going hungry, so complete freedom there. "Even" my 5 yo is making healthy choices









(I know I am throwing ideas all over the place here, excuse my messy process of "realizing through analyzing" of my parenting. Much of it was/is done intuitively so I never took time to really take it apart and verbalize it)

Exactly.

Scuba, I hope you are not really gone


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

What is the difference between TCS and consensual living? (Or should I start a new thread?)

I'm learning.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
What is the difference between TCS and consensual living? (Or should I start a new thread?)

I'm learning.

I'd maybe start a new thread, if you don't get many answers here. And while you're at it, if you'd add "non-coercive parenting" to that too, I'd appreciate it









I'd be interested in that discussion, though I wouldn't have much to add.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

So those are some of my thoughts as I read countless threads on this forum to get a sense of where I want to go as a parent. Intentional parenting, yes. Gentle parenting, yes. But parenting with the belief and expectation that both I and my child can behave rationally and in mutually acceptable ways, in all situations? That doesn't even make sense to me.
I am not perfect or 100 percent anything in *ALL* situations, I can still strive for it though and not say I believe the use of force is necessary, my right, or my duty 'for their own good'.

As far as a child's ability to reason- I will believe no amount of RESEARCH telling me ANYTHING. I will believe what I see in front of my eyes in my life. At one point researchers believed people were either left or right brained now they say people are both. At one point researchers believed the human brain was done developing at age three now they say the human brains is making and pruning connections and therefore developing throughout life. At one point researchers said eggs, milk, red meat, etc etc etc was bad for you then good then bad then good again. Well maybe not that many times but my point is what is research if I don't feel it is true in my heart or witness it first hand? It definitely is not something I will mindfully allow to influence my parenting.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Regarding research, I hear you on the way things seem to "flip-flop" over the years as they learn more. BUT there are certain facts of physiology that aren't going to change. One of them being that our limbic brain, in charge of "gut" reactions (i.e. the opposite of the prefrontal cortex, where "rationality" is situated) is a very important player in human behavior, child, adult, any culture, any human, it doesn't matter. This isn't to say that we should give up on being more "rational" (if that is a goal we value), only to say that it is not a realistic goal to expect human beings to consistently make choices and behave according to "logic", or what would logically be best for all concerned.

But here I am substituting the word "logic" for "rationality", and it occurs to me that maybe part of the problem is the words we're using. LOGIC and REASON are words I use interchangeably, and I'm thinking back to the Enlightenment, when these attributes of the mind came to be particularly valued. Perhaps in this thread when people are using the words "reason" and "rational" they are meaning something slightly different than "logical". If so, please tell me what you're thinking when you use these words.

I have to go but maybe I will start a thread later asking for clarification of the different philosophies which seem to have non-coerciveness as a central tenet.

Elizabeth

Note that I edited my first paragraph because I left out some crucial words that changed my thought...in case you read this in the notification e-mail.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

What is the difference between TCS and consensual living? (Or should I start a new thread?)

I'm learning.
definitions
Here is a recent thread about definitions on different philosophies. I know close to nothing about TCS personally. I think there is a link to a website about TCS in this thread though.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
definitions
Here is a recent thread about definitions on different philosophies. I know close to nothing about TCS personally. I think there is a link to a website about TCS in this thread though.


Oh, thank you!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't know that I strive to be completely non-coercive, or consentual. But in everyday reality, there is very little (if any) coersion going on in our lives. I try to find mutually agreeable, or consentual ways to do things.
The reason that I try to live this way, is that I respect how my ds feels and thinks. I care about his desires and opinions. I don't necessarily believe that he's "rational" or capable of making a rational decision every time on his own.

I believe that kids are innately social, and that they want to do the acceptable thing. They need guidance to do so, many times. But guidance doesn't have to come in the form of force or coersion (and obviously not punishment). As a matter of fact, I think that kids learn less if they are being coerced, than if they have the opportunity to see the situation without the added feelings that coersion likely introduces.
I agree with what MissRubyandKen was saying a while back- kids are better able to follow the guidance of their parents if they don't have to deal with past coersion, power struggles, etc etc. (I know I'm not saying that well, but hopefully I made my point







) (I'll add that I don't think a small amount of coersion is inherently damaging for the long term.)

Just wanted to put out there that I don't think all "non coercers" believe kids are "rational."


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I believe that kids are innately social, and that they want to do the acceptable thing. They need guidance to do so, many times. But guidance doesn't have to come in the form of force or coersion (and obviously not punishment). As a matter of fact, I think that kids learn less if they are being coerced, than if they have the opportunity to see the situation without the added feelings that coersion likely introduces.















You put this so well! I rambled on and on to make that point.









Quote:

Just wanted to put out there that I don't think all "non coercers" believe kids are "rational."
Yeah. I agree. Definitely no more than the rest of us.






















While kids may not always be or seem rational I do think they are very reasonable. So while I might find a small child rubbing their butt on the carpet to dry their butt after it has been wet wiped, when I explain why this isn't a good idea and show them a more proper way by drying it with toilet paper, their actions might not have seemed rational to me (though there surely was a thought process behind it- I'm wet and uncomfortable, this will help) but they are being reasonable when they follow my guidance. What more could I ask for? I'm sure I could find a better example but this is one time I can remember looking at my kid and thinking 'What ARE you doing?'


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

What if you empty your mind of 'the poopy diaper HAS to get changed' -like thoughts. Of course the poopy diaper has to be removed if there is a child who was in a diaper and pooped, we all know that. BUT if your mind is emptied of 'this HAS to be done' you will likely be more open to alternatives besides force if and when a child refuses IN THAT MOMENT.
Forgive me--I mean, I know I am just going on and on about the poopy diapers.







But let me again state that when I let go of "the poopy diaper HAS to be changed" and said to DD, "You have a poopy diaper and it needs to be changed so that you won't get a rash. Let me know when you are ready," (I sat and waited for her, too, in her oom) she wasn't ready for a long while. She just wasn't. She has never been a kid to mind a wet or poopy diaper, even as an infant, but she sure minds the resulting rash.

And I swear to you, I was more than open to alternatives. We tried so many things! Now, as I've said, we are no longer having the struggle, because we have found a way that works and/or she is out of the stage of really not wanting the change (I don't really know which). But, yes, I did use force on occasion, by which I mean, to be clear, that I laid a mildly struggling and crying (not totally FREAKING OUT) child down and did not permit her to kick or hurt me (meaning I held her arms/legs--if you are consensual, do you not stop your child from hitting you either?) while I changed her.

I am still wondering how anyone else would have dealt with popcorn up the nose, too, and in fact about any of the concrete examples I gave. Again, I don't mean to be obtuse--it's just that I am very truthfully amazed that so many of you have never found yourselves in a basically nonnegotiable situation where you could not consense, or did not have time to. I dunno...it seems like the implication must be that maybe a) I actually suck as a playful, GD parent and am not inventive and don't try hard enough b) my child is unusually intense and persistent (always a possibility!) c) I am unlucky or d) I am just overly unwilling to miss my plane, poopify Playland, or have my child retain popcorn up her nose.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

How did this discussion get moved from the 'poopy diaper' thread







?


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I am still wondering how anyone else would have dealt with popcorn up the nose, too, and in fact about any of the concrete examples I gave. Again, I don't mean to be obtuse--it's just that I am very truthfully amazed that so many of you have never found yourselves in a basically nonnegotiable situation where you could not consense, or did not have time to. I dunno...it seems like the implication must be that maybe a) I actually suck as a playful, GD parent and am not inventive and don't try hard enough b) my child is unusually intense and persistent (always a possibility!) c) I am unlucky or d) I am just overly unwilling to miss my plane, poopify Playland, or have my child retain popcorn up her nose.
As far as the popcorn thing I have honestly never heard of this happening before let alone experienced it. I don't know what danger of it was to weigh what I might do. And I personally already said that in an emergency room type of situation I guess I would have to wing it. And I personally never said I haven't ever used force, just that I think it wasn't necessary when I did and I could have mindfully found another way. I also said I am not perfect or 100 percent anything (what human could be) but I can still strive to be. I have my moments when I am sucky (for lack of better word at this moment), but never look back thinking I was right to be sucky. I apologize and do what I can to make the situation better.

Quote:

if you are consensual, do you not stop your child from hitting you either?)
Being hit would not be something I would consent to. I would block or walk or turn away if asking them to stop and explaining and attempts to calm the child did not immediately work, continuing to do those things until they did work. If my walking or turning away was not consentual to them I would explain I wanted to be with them but getting hit hurts. I haven't had a child get to that point often at all and the couple of times I have they have stopped at that point, apologizing. SO beyond that if a child is still hitting I honestly don't know what I would do.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
it's just that I am very truthfully amazed that so many of you have never found yourselves in a basically nonnegotiable situation where you could not consense, or did not have time to.

I will not answer for everybody, neither will I answer every situation. But in my/our experience when we are faced with a possibile "immediate reaction is required and it's not going to feel good" like the popcorn in the nose case (though this particular thing never happened to us) my kids trust that what I will do WILL make them better (due to many previous explanation, no arbitrary actions imposed on them, etc., etc.,)

When something like this happens they run to me ASKING me for help (verbally or not), not me telling them I HAVE to do such and such onto them.

THEY don't want to sit and negotiate and by asking me to help they consede to my intrusion.

So basically what I am witnessing is that by knowing that their consent will be respected, they often give it without even being asked.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
Truly I have thought on this myself and wondered if we are all saying basically the same thing. But why would someone argue against not using force if they have no intention of using force? I admit I am confused too. And I THINK we all are against threats and intimidation as force. So why argue against the idea of living consensually if you are opposed to using force? Just in case there is a tough moment and one feels they MUST use force or because some truly believe it is their right and duty to their children to use force if it is 'for their own good' even though there is likely an alternative?

Well I think it isnt so much as that we have no intention of using force, but that we see our way around it whenever possible. But arent hesitant to pull that trump card when we see that the situation come to it.
So we all may appear to be doing the same things at the beginning. Negotiating, making things fun, providing options and choices when availible. The difference comes in only if we have exhausted all options or time and we still have an uncooperative child, do you coerce or not. And it is in this final moment that we differ I believe. Although the tools we use up to that point may be very similar indeed.
I try hard not to argue against the idea of living consensually so much as to support my decision and the decision of others here not to do so. I fully support the choices of families who choose to live consensually. So while I may argue that it is not for me or my family, I certainly hope not to involve myself in arguments against consensual living per-se. (except when by defending my own choices it comes across as an argument against consensual living, if that makes any sense)
And I would like to say that I am not opposed to using force. I think there are much kinder ways to handle most situations and I try them first. But that does not mean I oppose using force, just that it isnt my first choice.
Joline


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

There are some situations in my house in which the end result is non negotiable. Now, the how or when part may be open to negotiation, but in the end, it needs to be done. Like the diaper thing. I have a daughter who is now three years old and has no interest in the potty. OK, fine, when she goes is up to her. She does need her poopy diaper changed. IME girls can't be left in poop as long as boys can. THey will break out faster in a rash or even a yeast infection with prolonged exposure to feces. My 3yo has EXTREMELY sensitive skin. She will literally be red within 10-15 minutes of pooping. This is not an exaggeration. She must be changed. I will negotiate how or where she is changed, what I use to wipe her butt, she picks the new diaper, etc. But, in the end she needs to be changed. Her only real alternative here is the potty.

Toothbrushing also needs to be done. This may not be as important at 1 or 2 years old, but my oldest is 8 and she has grown up teeth in her mouth. To allow them to rot would be irresponsible of ME as a mother. She may not want to do it, but doesn't really understand the long term implications of never brushing your teeth or seeing a dentist. Although I have commented when she notices someone with rotted teeth.







She can choose which toothbrush to use, which toothpaste, or choose to let me do it for her or do it herself. In the end, it needs to be done.

Homework needs to be done. It is expected in their school and important to help her understanding of the work. The 2 that are in school can choose when and where it will be done. They can do it right after their snack, watch tv first, do it before dinner or after dinner. But, it needs to be done.

The only real non negotiables at all are running in the street (DUH) and not beating the crap out of each other. Whether they agree or not, they may not smack one of their sisters in the head. Oh and my 3yo has one more non negotiable. She is NOT ALLOWED to drag the kitty around the house by the tail. EVER.







The kitty is a creature with the right to be safe in our home, just as she is.

It seems that some people equate non negotiables with force. I don't drag them into the bathroom and shove a toothbrush down their throats. I don't tie them to the kitchen chair and tape the pencil in their hands. They know the expectation. They understand the limits, as to when things must be done. In general, they abide by these happily. I can think of very few situations where actual force has ever been used. Just explaining the expectation and asking how or when (depending on the situation) they would like to do it, has been enough for us. They really do respond well to this.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I try hard not to argue against the idea of living consensually so much as to support my decision and the decision of others here not to do so. I fully support the choices of families who choose to live consensually. So while I may argue that it is not for me or my family, I certainly hope not to involve myself in arguments against consensual living per-se. (except when by defending my own choices it comes across as an argument against consensual living, if that makes any sense)

Yes, this is a good point, Joline. This is also a major frustration for me, here, too. I think this may be what Sledg was touching on. I have commented on numerous times in these threads that debate non-consensual vs. consensual parenting. I always say that I think it's admirable, interesting, healthy, a great way to live your life if you so choose. I feel that a more traditional, top-down, authoritative parenting model is also a healthy way to parent, and that the millions (billions?) of families practicing this model throughout the world can't be all wrong.

But I think the non-consensual parents are a little more "proselytizing", if you will, and feel that others are making the wrong choice by even choosing to gently coerce. I'm sorry that Pat and others are so frustrated, and that they feel that the mothers here are making such poor decisions. However, this is a gentle discipline board, and I don't take that to mean that we must choose to live consensually.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

But I think the non-consensual parents are a little more "proselytizing", if you will, and feel that others are making the wrong choice by even choosing to gently coerce. I'm sorry that Pat and others are so frustrated, and that they feel that the mothers here are making such poor decisions. However, this is a gentle discipline board, and I don't take that to mean that we must choose to live consensually.
Did you mean this to state you think the consensual parents are a little more "proselytizing"? I for one am not trying to 'convert' anyone to a different religion, philosophy, or whatever else. I am stating my thoughts, opinions, perceptions, and feelings just like everybody else. And I am at best uncomfortable with labels in general, I would prefer to say I will strive to live consensually rather than label myself a 'consensual parent'. The label seems to apply more than there is to it IMO.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I think this may be what Sledg was touching on. I have commented on numerous times in these threads that debate non-consensual vs. consensual parenting. I always say that I think it's admirable, interesting, healthy, a great way to live your life if you so choose. I feel that a more traditional, top-down, authoritative parenting model is also a healthy way to parent, and that the millions (billions?) of families practicing this model throughout the world can't be all wrong.

But I think the non-consensual parents are a little more "proselytizing", if you will, and feel that others are making the wrong choice by even choosing to gently coerce. I'm sorry that Pat and others are so frustrated, and that they feel that the mothers here are making such poor decisions. However, this is a gentle discipline board, and I don't take that to mean that we must choose to live consensually.

That is something I was touching on. I find the implication in some posts that those of us who do not practice consensual living (who believe in, of course, gentle guidance and cooperation) must not have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives disturbing. The fact is, we all have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives. We have simply drawn different conclusions-and that does not indicate that any one of us is right or wrong, or better or worse a parent than another.

Now, having said that one conclusion and way of parenting is not better than another I fully expect the "but it's the perception of the child that is important" argument. I agree that the perception of the child is important, and that what a parent deems right may feel awful to a child. However, I do not claim to be able to know what the perception of another person's child is. The fact is that each person has a different perception, and that any parent who is attentive and conscientious and working to cooperate with their child is the person most likely to understand their own child's perspective. I also believe that there are no universal truths to be found, which is what allows me to be very open to hearing new ideas and to growth.

I fully respect the parents who choose to live consensually. I think it's wonderful and interesting and gives me plenty of food for thought. I fully respect the parents who choose to parent more authoritatively. I have learned a lot about being gentle and cooperating with my children and seeing things from my children's perspectives from those more traditional mothers over the years. My intent here has never been to take sides or argue what's better or worse, but simply to share my own experience and thoughts and to openly listen to others do the same.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
That is something I was touching on. I find the implication in some posts that those of us who do not practice consensual living (who believe in, of course, gentle guidance and cooperation) must not have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives disturbing. The fact is, we all have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives. We have simply drawn different conclusions-and that does not indicate that any one of us is right or wrong, or better or worse a parent than another.

Now, having said that one conclusion and way of parenting is not better than another I fully expect the "but it's the perception of the child that is important" argument. I agree that the perception of the child is important, and that what a parent deems right may feel awful to a child. However, I do not claim to be able to know what the perception of another person's child is. The fact is that each person has a different perception, and that any parent who is attentive and conscientious and working to cooperate with their child is the person most likely to understand their own child's perspective. I also believe that there are no universal truths to be found, which is what allows me to be very open to hearing new ideas and to growth.

I fully respect the parents who choose to live consensually. I think it's wonderful and interesting and gives me plenty of food for thought. I fully respect the parents who choose to parent more authoritatively. I have learned a lot about being gentle and cooperating with my children and seeing things from my children's perspectives from those more traditional mothers over the years. My intent here has never been to take sides or argue what's better or worse, but simply to share my own experience and thoughts and to openly listen to others do the same.


I could not agree more!

I think that can be down sides to any type of parenting for any particular child. One of my SIL's lives "consesnually" I am not saying this would happen for every child, but for her dd, it was not a healthy way to live.

Being provided with information and decision making strategies did not work for her at a young age. When her anxiety became so great that they had to seek out help, they were finally told "She may think that she likes making all these decisions, but it is making her nervous, depressed and anxious. You as the parents need to make some of these decisions."

My niece definitely percieved herself as being unhappier in the short run with these limitations, but within a month her anxiety and depression began to lift. She was indeed happier. But as a seven year old she could not precieve or rationalize that this was why. She did not "consent" to this, but my bil was adament that they keep doing things this way (and it was done very gently).

Now my point here is NOT that most or even many children will be anxious and depressed with consensual living. My point is only as Sledg said that there is no one universal "right" way that will truly make everyone happy.

There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
That is something I was touching on. I find the implication in some posts that those of us who do not practice consensual living (who believe in, of course, gentle guidance and cooperation) must not have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives disturbing. The fact is, we all have taken the time to see things from our children's perspectives. We have simply drawn different conclusions-and that does not indicate that any one of us is right or wrong, or better or worse a parent than another.

I am SO glad you have said this. THis has come up a few times and I find it so upsetting and so offensive that I usually just stop and refuse to comment on it because I know how angry I will get.
But It has been the case a handful of times when another poster who has never met my children who basically seems to claim that THEY are representing my childrens interests and opinions and point of view. (or the point of view of all children in general, what have you). And I agree with what you say above, that we as parents are the ones who are taking the time to see things from our childrens perspective, better than a stranger can imagine what our child's perspective is that is for sure.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I am SO glad you have said this. THis has come up a few times and I find it so upsetting and so offensive that I usually just stop and refuse to comment on it because I know how angry I will get.
But It has been the case a handful of times when another poster who has never met my children who basically seems to claim that THEY are representing my childrens interests and opinions and point of view. (or the point of view of all children in general, what have you). And I agree with what you say above, that we as parents are the ones who are taking the time to see things from our childrens perspective, better than a stranger can imagine what our child's perspective is that is for sure.
I would like to point out that you or any other ONE person here does not represent everybody, just like I do not. I for one was thankful when someone pointed out to me my use of force was unnecessary and took the time to help me understand why. If there is no one person here that will say 'Yes, that is it, that makes so much sense! I do not NEED to use force' I will most certainly bow out of this debate. They need not say to theirselves that they are perfect and never will use force neccessarily, just that they find it true in their hearts it is unnecessary and realize it is a mistake for the feelings it likely invokes in the child. It seems maybe you are so inside your children's heads you KNOW none of them feel terrible at being forced or that you know they do but do so anyway without deeming it a mistake despite how the child feels, if so of course that is your choice. Someone else may be like me though. If you or anyone else here can say without a doubt there will be no one person whom my words may speak to (lurkers or not) I will delete all of my somehow 'offensive' posts.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
Did you mean this to state you think the consensual parents are a little more "proselytizing"? I for one am not trying to 'convert' anyone to a different religion, philosophy, or whatever else. I am stating my thoughts, opinions, perceptions, and feelings just like everybody else. And I am at best uncomfortable with labels in general, I would prefer to say I will strive to live consensually rather than labal myself a 'consensual parent'. The labal seems to apply more than there is to it IMO.

No, I agree that you are not much of a converter. There are posters here, however, who are, IMO, sometimes very disrespectful in their expression of dismay, disgust, whatever at other parents' decisions. I will refer to the poopy diaper discussion as an example of this. And sometimes it goes both ways, but it seems like most of the time the Non-consensuals are content with saying, "Well, if it was my kid, I'd just do it," but the Consensuals say, "How dare you attempt to make your kid get a diaper changed!?!"


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
I would like to point out that you or any other ONE person here does not represent everybody, just like I do not. I for one was thankful when someone pointed out to me my use of force was unnecessary and took the time to help me understand why. If there is no one person here that will say 'Yes, that is it, that makes so much sense! I do not NEED to use force' I will most certainly bow out of this debate. They need not say to theirselves that they are perfect and never will use force neccessarily, just that they find it true in their hearts it is unnecessary and realize it is a mistake for the feelings it likely invokes in the child. It seems maybe you are so inside your children's heads you KNOW none of them feel terrible at being forced or that you know they do but do so anyway without deeming it a mistake despite how the child feels, if so of course that is your choice. Someone else may be like me though. If you or anyone else here can say without a doubt there will be no one person whom my words may speak to (lurkers or not) I will delete all of my somehow 'offensive' posts.

I assure you I have not seen any offense in your posts. And I would absolutely hate to imagine that anybody would bow out of this discussion or any other simply because their opinion is not the most popular one.
I also agree that you pointing out what works for you and your family and what your values are is a very positive thing to share and certainly there are many who can learn from your experience and see if such ideas and experience speaks to them.
I feel very much the same way, which is why I am still here.









My above sentiment was not to express discontent with the ideas shared.
But only that there has been the occasional post in which somebody has claimed to be representing the point of view of our children, or declared themselves the advocates for our children.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

johub and natensarah









Is anyone else PMSing besides me?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I am not sure if I am one of the "bad posters" we are talking about here. I think my only post in the diaper thread was a suggestion that not one single person commented on, but who knows what people choose to think I am saying?

Anyway, I have meant to address the popcorn and poop questions but have a sick toddler at home and have been limitied in my typing time.

On the popcorn, we have had a similar situation. It did not involve the nose or popcorn, but we have done a "scary ER trip". My dd needed to cooperate in order for her to get treated. At one point she had to sit still and alone in a big empty x-ray room. The doc warned me up and down that this is very traumatic for toddlers and that they might have to use straps!!!!! Now if I had the habit of forcing my dd to do things with her body that she did not want to do, I can see how this could have happened. Had I just "tried on" consensual living for that trip only or even for that week only, I can also see how my dd would not nessecarily have cooperated. But because we have a very long history of giving dd info and allowing her to choose, she trusts our judgement in times of emergency. I did not have time to come up with games or go to the library and show her books on xrays. I had to rely on her trust that this was one situation in which we had to move fast without discussion. The same night the doc was painfully moving around her bones. This caused dd great pain. Again, I had to rely on our long standing relationship that I always give the very best info I can and give her choices over her body in all but very serious situations. It was not coersion because she consented. She knew that it was going to hurt. She knew this because I told her. I also told her that unfortunately the hurting part was necessary for her to get better. She believed me because she knows I would not ask her to consent to pain unless it was absolutely necessary. Now even with this relationship I suppose there was a chance she would have still refused. In fact I fully expected it. I was quite surprised that she trusted us that much. But I had a game plan and it did involve coersion. I would have been very sad to go there, but we are talking about a once in a toddlerhood experience. If push came to shove, I would have done what i needed to in order to get her treated. I would however, have also required that the hospital made consessions such as allowing me to sit on the xray table with her (with a shield). i would not allow her to be strapped down. We would have drove to the next hospital (and the next and the next) if it came to it. Whatever it took. The broken leg (or popcorn up the nose) could wait that long. If we are talking cardiac arrest, well I am sure you know my answer. So, yes, that might be a non-negotiable.....immediate life in danger. But a more minor emergnecy can allow for some wiggle room IMO.

On the poopy diaper....I am more laid back about that I guess. A rash sucks but it is not life threatening. If all efforts to come to a consenual spot about changing the diaper failed, then I would allow dd to get the rash. Honestly, we have never been there. Dd got rashes by accident on several occasions. All were my fault. In some cases dd had an undetected poo during a nap and marinated in it for an hour or two. Before dd could tell me she needed a change, poo went undetected for a while causing a rash. And a few times we all got too involved doing something really fun that what I thought was 10 minutes truned into 30 and she got a minor rash. So we talked about rashes when she got them. We talked about what causes them, how to treat them, how to prevent them. Dd hated having her dipe changed and we made a lot of new games, places, methods, positions to help her. But she never refused because she knew that she would get a rash. This is part of learning. You learn to eat because you experience hunger. You learn to drink because you experience thirst. You learn what hot is because you touch something hot (and hopefully not too hot). And IMO you learn what causes rashes by getting one. This is very little that small children are just going to have lectured to them and not test. That is true for adults on many issues too. We talked about rashes as they happened just like we talked about hot the first time dd gently touched the outside of my coffee cup. I use the gentle (not harmful) times to discuss. Sometimes it is not enough. If dd knowing full well that a rash might occur, decided that under no terms was she going to allow a diaper change, I would have honored that. You might think that is neglectful. I do not. I am not in her head. If for some reason having her body integrity compromised is MORE undesirable to her than the results of a dipe on too long, that really is her decision. But i think children are rational. Rational only meaning that they are capable of making decisions. Maybe not always the "right" decision, but I am not always right either.

In all honesty, these situations really do not come up much. I can see how they moght if we went form an autoratative home in which i make the rules and dd must follow to a consensual one, there would probably be a period of time in which everything would be a negotiation battle. But 9 times out of 10 dd does not even question something. If I ask for help cleaning up her toys, she usually helps. And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a biggie since most things are not a biggie. It might take some tweaking or negotiation but it usually does not take much conscious thought. It is very rare that we get into a non-negotiable stalemate, if fact I cannot think of a time when it has happened (except the car in the parking lot example I stated before).

We learned about consensual living because my dd was/is very "difficult". I have more leanings towards authoratative parenting. But I found life to be too difficult with my emerging toddler when I tried to be in her driver's seat all of the time. It was on here that I started to learn about consensual living. It has (believe it or not) mad eour lives MUCH easier, not harder as I used to think when I was first learning about it.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Been gone a while but wanted to chime in. I have not read most of the posts.

For us, very little is non-negotiable. Carseats/seatbelts are not negotiable. Leaving in the car might be. But, if they car is moving, they have to be buckled, period.

Mostly safety issues but I am even negotiable on many of those compared to many. I am open with the girls, always providing information. Even if something is non-negotiable, I am going to make the process as painless as possible. Like the shot example. Because of medical conditions, my girls have had blood drawn numerous times. I have not had the luxury of it being a choice, really. But, I also did not make it appear to be a choice. It had to be done. But, I prepared them days in advance. Yes, it will hurt. No, not for long. Yes you will get to see your blood, etc.

DH is a bit more restrictive than I am. Many of his rules are set in stone. The girls know that and know when he is home there are some tighter rules. They are ok with this. Fortunately, most of his rules apply to in the house, so the girls go outside.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Yooper









Thanks for expending on this thought and giving the example!


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Very eloquent post yoopervegan







, and right on for me too.


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Yooper - I love your posts









We went through a similar situation with the rash. It took one minor rash for dd to remember the expereince. Same with regulating her food intake. I help to guide her and give a background to her expereinces and to make those associations. - Like too much juice gives us an icky feeling tummy.

My basic feeling is that we need to get from point A to point B (for instance - from in our pjs to our day clothes) but the way we get there is open. Maybe this is a product of the age of the child, but at 2.5 dd knows we need to get dressed. I can dress her, she can dress herself, we can get dressed in her room, in my room, etc. If we do this respectfully of each other, we maintain a basic, fundamental trust that carries over into every aspect of our lives.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
In all honesty, these situations really do not come up much. . . But 9 times out of 10 dd does not even question something. If I ask for help cleaning up her toys, she usually helps. And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a biggie since most things are not a biggie. It might take some tweaking or negotiation but it usually does not take much conscious thought. It is very rare that we get into a non-negotiable stalemate, if fact I cannot think of a time when it has happened (except the car in the parking lot example I stated before).

This is the perfect example how similar things look even when we appear to debate the "opposite sides" of this continuum.
THis is how things look at my house too.
I may say there are many things that are "non negotiable" or that I am fully willing to coerce. But 9 times out of 10 my toddlers don't even question something.
And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a "biggie" because we just get through it to the other side.
Only here among so many people who share 90% similarity (give or take) in what we actually do would we find so much to debate in the 10% or less!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
"She may think that she likes making all these decisions, but it is making her nervous, depressed and anxious. You as the parents need to make some of these decisions."

*This* is my dd. This year, I am learning (by observing dd) what decisions she can handle, and what decisions she can not yet handle. When given all the decisions that affect her personally, she can get so fraught with anxiety that she doesn't even enjoy her choice--or, will drive us crazy by worrying over choices for days in advance! Although she will sometimes protest, she is overall MUCH happier when I "insist" on some decisions.

Quote:

There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.
Every child is different!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetest*
We went through a similar situation with the rash. It took one minor rash for dd to remember the expereince. Same with regulating her food intake. I help to guide her and give a background to her expereinces and to make those associations. - Like too much juice gives us an icky feeling tummy.

Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand (and/or has no impulse control, normal for a 2 yr old) and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid.







AND, I'm jealous. I WISH my son would understand more, and help me come up with solutions to situations that we both can agree on and nobody is being forced to do anything...but when he just stares at me and won't go for any of the options I've outlined, and isn't able to offer any options of his own, what am I supposed to do?

This is a serious, genuine post...

Maybe it's just getting back to the temperment thing, that different kids can understand and particpate in things at different ages...and mine happens to not be there yet.

I just can't wait until DS can actively participate in this, I'm sure I'll be less coercive then. For now, though, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp situations or have any ideas of his own (other than the ones that are NOT agreeable to me







), so I do the best I can to make us both as happy as possible, and get through it.

FWIW, our time is vastly coersion free, but sometimes, when his only idea is one that is not OK for me, but he doesn't like any of my alternatives and can't come up with any of his own, something has to give...

Any ideas or thoughts?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid.







AND, I'm jealous.

Yeah this is my kids too. I am always offering information. And I do give them lots of choices. But sometimes it just isnt enough.
Now my 3 year old is getting to a place where he really does get it, especially safety. HE is like "safety boy"!








But my 2 2 1/2 year olds? DS 2 still seems hell bent on getting himself killed.

And to add to it, about the whole food thing mentioned.
Only a few times in my entire life have I ever felt poorly or 'icky' after eating unhealthy food. I am simply not observant enough myself to notice unless it is huge thing, like thanksgiving dinner or an entire half gallon of ice cream.
So to me telling my child that if she wants to eat more x that is up to her but it might make her feel sick. But in my experience usually it doesnt. It might be lackign in necessary nutrients and contribute to poor overall health in the long run. But there has rarely ever been an immediate negative natural consequence for eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts.
Is this me? Am I wierd this way? Gut of steel perhaps?
Anyway, having this experience I simply cannot imagine how letting my children self regulate junk food can possibly lead to healthy food choices.
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.

OK I know this is entirely OT, but somebody mentioned it in a recent post and these questions had been building for a while!!!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.









love it....

Should I mention I just had half a bag of potato chips and M&M's for my afternoon snack?







:

Thanks for the commiseration, I fele better knowing I'm not alone with the "pre understanding" kids!


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## moonbeam7627 (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand (and/or has no impulse control, normal for a 2 yr old) and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid.







AND, I'm jealous. I WISH my son would understand more, and help me come up with solutions to situations that we both can agree on and nobody is being forced to do anything...but when he just stares at me and won't go for any of the options I've outlined, and isn't able to offer any options of his own, what am I supposed to do?

This is a serious, genuine post...

Maybe it's just getting back to the temperment thing, that different kids can understand and particpate in things at different ages...and mine happens to not be there yet.

I just can't wait until DS can actively participate in this, I'm sure I'll be less coercive then. For now, though, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp situations or have any ideas of his own (other than the ones that are NOT agreeable to me







), so I do the best I can to make us both as happy as possible, and get through it.

FWIW, our time is vastly coersion free, but sometimes, when his only idea is one that is not OK for me, but he doesn't like any of my alternatives and can't come up with any of his own, something has to give...

Any ideas or thoughts?

don't stress over it...sometimes our best efforts are in vain. My 8 yr old stepson can not deal with choices. He also does not learn from his past mistakes, his mother was VERY lax and did not make sure he knew the importance of self cleansing or toothbrushing, resaulting in painful cavities and even had a tooth fall out. Now that he is home with us more we discovered that he was not brushing his teeth we reminded him about the lost tooth, he recalled what happened and talked about his reaction to it, but we still have to oversee him to make sure he is brushing and not just standing there with his toothbrush in his mouth. As far as everything else, if you give him choices on what he can do he will eather stand in one spot until he forgets what he was deciding or start crying. My daughter on the other hand has always liked to have the choice on how to go about what needs to be done. But she is older now and we have more important things to deal with.With him it has to be one way or no way. Its just him. Not that you should give up on your son, by all means do what you can to teach him to make decisions, but if its his personality to not be able to, don't stress.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

The parking lot is a good example of a discussion point.

Obviously I cannot let dd experience getting run over to see that running in a parking lot willy nilly is a bad idea. There are a lot of things that she can relatively safely experience (again and again if necessary) like mild hunger, thirst, a too much juice belly ache. But getting run over is not one of those







We have not actually had a problem with this because we live in a small town, do not shop much, and dd likes the cart. She likes holding my hand and a few times when she did not want to or my hands were full she was more than content to hold on to my purse. But if this were to become a problem, there are two components that I would have to deal with. One is the then and there situation. As she is pulling away and stating she wants to run, the first thing I would do is get down to her level and survey the scene from her perspective. Point out moving cars, other walkers, places she could go out of my sight where she could not easily find me. The I would aknowledge that running is fun and see if we could not find a way that was mutually agreeable to get what she wants. Maybe hold hands to an empty part of the lot and let her run a few minutes. Maybe go to the park right afterwards. Or often times giving her the BIG JOB of carrying a bag or the car keys diffuses the moment.

Then there is the second component. Now that I know my dc wants to run without hand holding, it is time to learn about awareness, the dangers of cars, looking both ways, etc.... We have started some of this in preparation for her probably wanting to walk more come this spring. Dh and dd had a great time running over balloon animals (and various other disposable things) with the car. I drove back and forth in the driveway while they planted various objects in my path. Old food in plastic conatiners is a favorite. Dh wanted dd to see that the car was dangerous so she understood standing back when someone is backing out of the garage. They discussed how the things got hurt, the "guts" came out, they could not be put back together, and how this correlates with people. We could also check out library books on looking both ways and getting lost. We can play "parking lot" with little people cars and figurines. We can go in the driveway with the bikes and practice looking both ways and being aware of moving vehicles. We can sit in the window seat of the coffee shop and practice looking both ways and deciding when the road is "safe" for crossing. The possibilities are endless. Some kids need none of this, they seem to get it right away. Some kids will need all this and more. It will vary from kid to kid and situation to situation. My dd "got" diaper rashes without much issue. It has taken much more effort to learn about getting enough sleep. She seems to need a lot more experimentation, discussion, and research. I have no idea why.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
This is the perfect example how similar things look even when we appear to debate the "opposite sides" of this continuum.
THis is how things look at my house too.
I may say there are many things that are "non negotiable" or that I am fully willing to coerce. But 9 times out of 10 my toddlers don't even question something.
And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a "biggie" because we just get through it to the other side.
Only here among so many people who share 90% similarity (give or take) in what we actually do would we find so much to debate in the 10% or less!









I know! Sometimes it seriously cracks me up the finer points we discuss to death when we probably do most things the same







But it is fun to dissect that 10%, eh?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
But 9 times out of 10 dd does not even question something. If I ask for help cleaning up her toys, she usually helps. And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a biggie since most things are not a biggie.

I agree, very helpful and eloquent post, yooper. I want to also chime in that, believe it or not, this is what life in my home looks like also these days (having gotten past some of my personal quirks and difficulties). We really all get along very pleasantly, we all cooperate very well. My kids have plenty of trust in me and my guidance and my ability to help them through difficulties. There just isn't a whole lot of struggle in our daily lives, we do manage to avoid it. We are all more alike than we are different.

donosmommy, I have a child who as a toddler (recently) got rashes but still didn't want to be changed (and she could not stand the feel of rash cream, either). We managed to get through it somehow without a lot of struggle, just a lot of waiting and reminding. Now, she hated having a poopy diaper so it was the pee that she was more than willing to sit in. Then she'd have a rash and she'd complain of her vulva hurting but she hated any sort of rash cream or powder. Thankfully, we are now done with diapers during the day and she joyfully sheds her nighttime diaper in the morning. It was frustrating. She outgrew it.

As to the parking lot, it takes time. My first two kids were awesome in the parking lot-no running, always holding my hand, nary a problem. My current toddler though, I avoided parking lots as much as possible or when in parking lots carried her in a backpack or she rode in a stroller or cart-if we could find a way to keep her off the ground (if she wanted to walk, there was no keeping her off the ground without major unpleasantness), we did. She just ran, and screamed when we would scoop her up, which was just always a miserable experience. What helped us most was when for awhile she walked right beside me ("you can walk right next to me, stay close, cars are coming") in some parking lots (the quietest ones) and I kept my hand on the back of her coat/shirt/head so I could grab her if need be-it gave her some freedom, and she never did run the times we did this. Eventually she got it, and now always willingly holds my hand in the parking lot so long as she is reassured that she can walk on her own when we get to safety (sidewalk).

Some kids just don't get things as easily/quickly. Some things just take time.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Yeah this is my kids too. I am always offering information. And I do give them lots of choices. But sometimes it just isnt enough.
Now my 3 year old is getting to a place where he really does get it, especially safety. HE is like "safety boy"!








But my 2 2 1/2 year olds? DS 2 still seems hell bent on getting himself killed.

And to add to it, about the whole food thing mentioned.
Only a few times in my entire life have I ever felt poorly or 'icky' after eating unhealthy food. I am simply not observant enough myself to notice unless it is huge thing, like thanksgiving dinner or an entire half gallon of ice cream.
So to me telling my child that if she wants to eat more x that is up to her but it might make her feel sick. But in my experience usually it doesnt. It might be lackign in necessary nutrients and contribute to poor overall health in the long run. But there has rarely ever been an immediate negative natural consequence for eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts.
Is this me? Am I wierd this way? Gut of steel perhaps?
Anyway, having this experience I simply cannot imagine how letting my children self regulate junk food can possibly lead to healthy food choices.
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.

OK I know this is entirely OT, but somebody mentioned it in a recent post and these questions had been building for a while!!!









I used to be able to eat huge amounts of junk and not feel it either..... I do remember being in middle school and feeling sick when eating too much junk. My parents were almost non-coercive....except for food. My mom is quite overweight and was terrified that her kids would be too. We were never allowed to have junk food. Once I got old enough to get my hands on it myself, I would binge on it and feel bad. But I still did it over and over until it did not effect me. It took make years to break this habit. Now I am back to a healthy eating point and can no longer eat much junk without feeling it. I cannot drink a whole can of soda or eat more than a small piece of (very good gourmet) chocolate. I think each person is very different. I do not know how it affects dd. she is allowed to eat as much of whatever she wants, but since she cannot drive and buy food, she is limited by what is available at home and places we go. I have found that with unlimited access to her Hallowween candy (for instance) she seems to stop well before I expect her to. We have never discussed it, she just does. When I was a kid, I would eat my Halloween candy as fast as I could because I was afraid my mom would take it and do the dreaded you-can-only-have-two-pieces-a-day routine that she pulled on me every year.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Thanks ladies, for the support....I guess I'm just *waiting* for the lightbulb to come on and him starting to be more able to discuss things with me. I think unitl then, it's goign to be tough for me to *not* coerce him, at least sometimes...believe me, it's my absolute last option, but when he cannot/does not participate, sometimes it's my only optoin to make the best of things and get them done.

I have a strange feeling he's gonna be one of those "learn the hard way" people, just like his dad









I think the thing that is most frustrating to me is that most of the time, he's fine with diapers, and holding my hand in parking lots, and getting in the car, and going downstairs when it's time for dinner, etc. No issues whatsoever, no coersion needed. But when he's not, MAN, he's not....and it seems that he is completely unwilling to negotiate anything that's not 100% his way....hmm, the more I write about this, the more it sounds like I'm describing DH!









Soooo, I'm just gonna keep on keeping on, doing what I can, explaining, empathizing, and talking, and just counting the days until we're able to have actual conversations that he can participate in!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

nd a few times we all got too involved doing something really fun that what I thought was 10 minutes truned into 30 and she got a minor rash. So we talked about rashes when she got them. We talked about what causes them, how to treat them, how to prevent them. Dd hated having her dipe changed and we made a lot of new games, places, methods, positions to help her. But she never refused because she knew that she would get a rash. This is part of learning.
I totally see how this would work with a three-year-old. In fact, it's quite possible that the reason my DD, who just turned two, is no longer fighting changes is because our explanations are now making sense to her. But she started fighting changes passionately at, I think, maybe 14-15 months old? What 15-month-old can understand this sort of thing? Not to be overproud, either, but my 15mo was speaking clearly and in sentences...still, an "if...then" equation did not function for her at that age.

I really notice that different kids have different capacities for understanding and being logical about these "if-then" explanatory ways of handling things. Actually, my DD seems to respond well to this sort of thing, generally, but I know a lot of kids who just seem to be too impulsive/active/nonverbal to "hear" these explanations, even at 2 or 3.

I just think there is not enough room for individual differences and age-appropriateness in this way of thinking.

Quote:

Now if I had the habit of forcing my dd to do things with her body that she did not want to do, I can see how this could have happened. Had I just "tried on" consensual living for that trip only or even for that week only, I can also see how my dd would not nessecarily have cooperated.
I am trying to be polite here, but what this sort of sounds like is, "Your child doesn't trust you. If she did, she wouldn't have had a problem with an invasive medical procedure." Um...







I guess this is where this discussion continues to go south for me. I dislike the assumption that if at some point one's best efforts do not "work," it must be because one is a "lesser" parent. For your own sake, too, I hope that if someday, heaven forbid, you DO have to restrain your child for a medical procedure, you do not assume that it must be because you have failed as a gentle parent and yourt child doesn't trust in you any longer.


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

As far as food goes, I am very strict about what is in our house. But dd can have anything she wants. And at preschool she is very good about regulating her own food intake. She amazes me that she can take a bite of a cookie and have enough (I cant







)

Of course the most important thing is to know your child and thier capaciticies. That has been the biggest lesson for me overall as a parent - is to be able to step back and recognize age appropriate behavior as a fundamental tool of learning about the world (hmmmm, what happens when I take a handful of oatmeal and throw it against the wall?) and to not discourage it, but to give the child room to learn. There have been many threads on this.

Parenting my dd has really helped me recognize the same behaviors in myself - I need to debate and anaylze everything


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I totally see how this would work with a three-year-old. In fact, it's quite possible that the reason my DD, who just turned two, is no longer fighting changes is because our explanations are now making sense to her. But she started fighting changes passionately at, I think, maybe 14-15 months old? What 15-month-old can understand this sort of thing? Not to be overproud, either, but my 15mo was speaking clearly and in sentences...still, an "if...then" equation did not function for her at that age.

I really notice that different kids have different capacities for understanding and being logical about these "if-then" explanatory ways of handling things. Actually, my DD seems to respond well to this sort of thing, generally, but I know a lot of kids who just seem to be too impulsive/active/nonverbal to "hear" these explanations, even at 2 or 3.

I just think there is not enough room for individual differences and age-appropriateness in this way of thinking.

I am trying to be polite here, but what this sort of sounds like is, "Your child doesn't trust you. If she did, she wouldn't have had a problem with an invasive medical procedure." Um...







I guess this is where this discussion continues to go south for me. I dislike the assumption that if at some point one's best efforts do not "work," it must be because one is a "lesser" parent. For your own sake, too, I hope that if someday, heaven forbid, you DO have to restrain your child for a medical procedure, you do not assume that it must be because you have failed as a gentle parent and yourt child doesn't trust in you any longer.

I think you missed where I said that I was surprised the ER was not a problem. I was fully expecting dd to have issue with it and then I was prepared to work outside of my normal parenting parameters because it was an emergency. If we had another emergency tonight I would not necessarily think that it would all be roses. I might be fine, it might not. I think that having always done my best to protect dd's body integrity made it easier. But all I can do it speculate since I really do not know.

I was just trying to answer the questions that you claimed were going unaddressed. I answered with how I would or have handled them. That is all. I speculated on why I thought it went better than expected. If we had to resort to more coersive methods because it was an emergency, I certainly would not think I failed as a parent. I would feel bad for dd feeling violated, but if there was no other way, then I would have to accept that.

My 2.5 yo is potty savvy so the dipes have not been an issue in the recent past. However, it was when dd was under two that we had these struggles and what I posted is how I handled it. I do not think the rash explanation sunk it the first time it happened. In fact I know it didnt because it was when she was pre-verbal. We talked about rashes probably 15 times. How much she picked up in each conversation is a mystery. But at some point it did sink it. Once she was verbal she could actually tell me that leaving a poopy diaper made rashes. When she was preverbal we had to find other ways to help make diaper changing agreeable to everyone. 90% of the time that dd did not want a change, simply waiting 5 minutes was the solution. She just needed time for it to sink it that it was going to happen soon.

I agree with you 100% that different kids and different ages need different approaches. It is my belief that it is possible to live mostly (except for some emergencies) consenusally with different kids and different ages. But the approach might be VASTLY different. I have had to change my approaches almost monthly. Sometimes (most of the time) dd is just happy to go along. Sometimes (rarely) it takes what seems like a great deal of effort to explain something. Sometimes it seems that it does not sink in and we become stuck for a short amount on time where no one is right or wrong and we just hold that space for a while. Sometimes distraction helps. Soemtimes playfulness helps. Sometimes being there and being sad with dc helps. My only real full-time experience is my own and I have learned that while it was bumpy when we first decided to go in this direction, that most days are actually not any more difficult and often less difficult than where we were before we committed to strive to live consensually.

I do not know what else to say. I am sorry you feel bad. I do not think you are a bad parent or failed. We have different parenting styles because we both believe ours to be the best for our families. Of we feel it to tbe best for our families, we have reasons and I think it is OK and healthy to discuss those reasons. I tried to answer your questions because you felt no one had


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## robin4kids (Jan 20, 2004)

I don't have time to look through all 7 pages of this thread, but it looks to me like many who have responded have eith only one or two kids, or their kids are still very young. I have 4 kids and one more on the way. My kids are 10, 8, 5 and 3. From my experience there are many things which are just worth forcing. Bed time, bath, t.v., diapers, leaving a friends house when mom or dad says so, not 10 minutes later, brushing teeth, homework, etc. It sounds mean, but I once negtiated all these things and take it from a mom who knows, kids will keep negotiating the same thing, day after day. For example, bath/shower. They say no. You say o.k. tomorrow. The next day, you say bath and they throw a fit and say tomorrow. It is never ending. On the other hand you could do what we do. We say shower and our 6 year old say, NOOOOOOOO! So we ask another time nice. If he still refuses, we hold him in the shower and do a quick shampoo and cleaning. The next day he goes to the shower on his own. I believe that kids need to know who is in charge. Oh and CHORES are non-negotiable. They can negotiate a different chore, but once the chore is decided on, you must do it before all other things.

Do I sound like a "hard ass"? I hope so, but I don't think my kids would call me one. I think compared to many parents I know, I am very easy going.
I must say that I believe in also giving my children privileges when they are older. They earn these by showing me they are responsible. My older two take the public bus home from school. We don't get a school bus. They may also take the dog for a walk and stay home by themselves for short times.
I don't have the time to wait for my children to decide to take a bath, or brush their teeth.
I have been told that I have great kids. I must be doing something right!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
We have different parenting styles because we both believe ours to be the best for our families. Of we feel it to tbe best for our families, we have reasons and I think it is OK and healthy to discuss those reasons.

I agree, Yooper! Thanks for the explanation of how you've dealt with some of your issues.

And let me ask, in the parking lot example, when you get down next to dd, would you physically restrain her? Put a hand on her? I'm asking because my dd, who is a Safety First kind of gal anyway, has still occasionally been distracted right out of the store and tried to bolt. I usually have baby brother and a bag or something, but even if I didn't I don't think I could get her attention back before it was too late, and I've had to grab her, which I'd prefer to avoid! This has only happened a few times, but once all I could get was her hood, and her zipper scratcher her throat and really hurt her feelings. Maybe you have quicker reflexes? Or do you kind of get in front of her?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I agree, Yooper! Thanks for the explanation of how you've dealt with some of your issues.

And let me ask, in the parking lot example, when you get down next to dd, would you physically restrain her? Put a hand on her? I'm asking because my dd, who is a Safety First kind of gal anyway, has still occasionally been distracted right out of the store and tried to bolt. I usually have baby brother and a bag or something, but even if I didn't I don't think I could get her attention back before it was too late, and I've had to grab her, which I'd prefer to avoid! This has only happened a few times, but once all I could get was her hood, and her zipper scratcher her throat and really hurt her feelings. Maybe you have quicker reflexes? Or do you kind of get in front of her?

That would be very situation specific. If we were in a non-crowded parking lot and I had time to see if a car was coming and there was not one coming, I would probably let her go, catch up, then do the "get down on her level thing". If I did not have time to assess the situation or could see a car coming, you bet I would grab her. We did have this problem in front of our house. We live on a semi-busy street and the only thing between the door and the road is 4 feet of sidewalk. When dd was first walking she would bolt out into the road. Once or twice I had to grab her and a few other times she ran into the street and I did not stop her as I could see no one was coming. In the cases when she ran into the road, I followed and tried to let her get her fill of whatever it was she wanted to see/do/feel about the road letting her know that I would help her to do that anytime it was safe. Unfortunately, going out the door is something that occurs mulitple times a day and I did not have time to really work on it with her before attempting it again. Like with the parking lot, if we were having an issue like that, we would not try a parking lot again until we had lots of time to dissect the experience then we would probably start with a very non-busy lot and work our way up. With our road, I found that even better than really researching the problem, I just started having chats with dd as I was getting her ready to go outside. Not sure how much sunk in as she was quite young but it seemed to "work". I would mention that I was really worried she would get hurt by a car and that it would give me peace of mind if she would either hold my hand or allow herself to be carried. She could not really answer as she couldn't talk. But then we went out and I gently held her hand and she consented by not pulling away. It was not perfect at first, but after a few days it became routine and I could stop the chats. She now always demands a hand to go out the door (especially after the squishing stuff with the car episodes). It sounds like a big ordeal when all spelled out, but we are only talking 10 second chats.

Then there is always the "what if she STILL wants to run into the road/parking lot" questions. And to be honest, I do not necessarily know. I do know that in each situation we have come to so far, there was a solution that we both agreed upon. What that is for each kid, I do not know. It might take some work. A lot of work! But my experience so far has been that most kids do not want to get squished, they just lack impulse control, good memory, or a grasp of the laws of physics at that moment and it is my job to try and help dd to develop whats he needs to be safe. And it usually (almost always) is not a big deal and does not require a great amount of work. Especially when they come to learn that your info is good, you have thier best interests in mind, and despite that (unless imediately life threatening) you will do what you can to find a mutually agreeable solution.

Man, it really sounds like I have to run to the library and squish things with the car every time some issue comes up. It sounds like a great deal of work. But it really isn't like that. It is very few issues that we have to go to those legnths with.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids*
I don't have time to look through all 7 pages of this thread, but it looks to me like many who have responded have eith only one or two kids, or their kids are still very young. I have 4 kids and one more on the way. My kids are 10, 8, 5 and 3. From my experience there are many things which are just worth forcing. Bed time, bath, t.v., diapers, leaving a friends house when mom or dad says so, not 10 minutes later, brushing teeth, homework, etc. It sounds mean, but I once negtiated all these things and take it from a mom who knows, kids will keep negotiating the same thing, day after day. For example, bath/shower. They say no. You say o.k. tomorrow. The next day, you say bath and they throw a fit and say tomorrow. It is never ending. On the other hand you could do what we do. We say shower and our 6 year old say, NOOOOOOOO! So we ask another time nice. If he still refuses, we hold him in the shower and do a quick shampoo and cleaning. The next day he goes to the shower on his own. I believe that kids need to know who is in charge. Oh and CHORES are non-negotiable. They can negotiate a different chore, but once the chore is decided on, you must do it before all other things.

Do I sound like a "hard ass"? I hope so, but I don't think my kids would call me one. I think compared to many parents I know, I am very easy going.
I must say that I believe in also giving my children privileges when they are older. They earn these by showing me they are responsible. My older two take the public bus home from school. We don't get a school bus. They may also take the dog for a walk and stay home by themselves for short times.
I don't have the time to wait for my children to decide to take a bath, or brush their teeth.
I have been told that I have great kids. I must be doing something right!

Me me! I have four kids and this is my house too. Although my 3 youngest are 3, 2, and 2 so there isnt much in the way of chores.
And my oldest, well, let's just say that chores are non-negotiable, but that doesnt mean they always get done







:
My kids entire day is filled with "non negotiables" . It isnt that I am physically forcing them to do things. It is just that these things happen and they are expected to go along with it. I'll do what I can to make it easy on them. But when push comes to shove, I dont have the time or energy to negotiate every single process every day for four kids.
Instead of "would you like a shower or a bath?" "Would you like to take it before or after dinner?" "What toys do you want to play with?" etcetera in my home it is "bath time" or "Shower time" everybody take off their clothes. If ds1 says "But I dont want to take a shower, I want a bath instead." I tell him, we cant do a bath tonight but we will do a bath next time. And he says OK and we go on with it.
Joline


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

The key concept that I see as essential to both "consensual" parenting and "authoritative" parenting (don't know if those are the best words but ykwim) is TRUST between parents and children.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

First, thanks for your response to my question. Again, it's interesting how similar we are in the day-to-day parenting. I've done all this, except for the running things over with a car part. I think that would scare her to death, as she's already very cautious about it. The few times, she's been really, really distracted and excited by something, and just not realized where she was.

So, in response to your question.

If my dd doesn't want to do the chore, which at this age is really only picking up her toys and books, I try playful parenting, breaking it down, asking again, a few other things. If they don't work, I just do it. I actually don't do all of those things. I try not to be a naggin' Nancy. But sometimes I tell her the importance of helping out and that if we all work together it keeps our house clean, blah, blah, blah. Mostly she does it.

If she doesn't want to take a bath, I say "Yippeee!" She ALWAYS wants to take a 1 hour long bubble bath with LOTS of water, and I think it's wasteful, not to mention expensive. So for us, I guess the question would be, what if she wants to do that but can't? I say, "I'm sorry, we don't have time tonight for a long bath. Do you want to skip? Or do you want to have a quickie bath with a little bit of water? Or do you want to take a shower with me in the morning?" Occasionally she says, "I don't want any of those choices." To which I might respond, "Well, what do you think we should do?" or, depending on the situation, "I'm sorry you don't like them, but those are the only choices there are."

Every night, as my dd finishes reading books with my dh, nearly nodding off, she says, "I don't want to go to bed." I pick her up gently, she lays her tired head on my shoulder, and I say, "I know, but we have to let our bodies rest so we can have another fun day tomorrow. We had lots of fun today," and then I talk about a highlight of our day. Usually that's all she needs, sometimes she repeats that she doesn't want to go to bed, so I try to talk to her about the fun thing she can do tomorrow after she's rested. I don't offer choices about bedtime. Bedtime is a hot button issue for me, I've lost my temper with her for waking up her brother more than I'd like to admit, and this mellow, in control approach is working really well. It's not ideal, I'd like to do things differently, but it's the most harmonious approach we've come up with so far.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I was just trying to answer the questions that you claimed were going unaddressed. I answered with how I would or have handled them. That is all. I speculated on why I thought it went better than expected. If we had to resort to more coersive methods because it was an emergency, I certainly would not think I failed as a parent. I would feel bad for dd feeling violated, but if there was no other way, then I would have to accept that.
Thank you--this clarifies a little and helps.







I do appreciate your answering my questions, and I did not say that before.

Quote:

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
I take it you mean that they will not do these things and that we have tried every technique we can think of, right? This is an interesting question that I can't answer quite yet, since I only have one kid and she is only two. If she will not help me pick up toys, I usually ask one more time, explain why I want it done, and then, if she still doesn't do it, I do it for her. The times when she DOES pick up toys, which these days is every time (yay!) I tell her how much that helps me and thank her.

If she did not do a chore as an older kid...hmm. I don't think I've decided yet. Right now we are no-punishment, but with an older kid I'm not sure my current method (ask, remind, then do it for her) is appropriate. I will have to think about that one when we get there, I guess.

She has never not wanted to take a bath. I guess she likes baths! I have occasionally forced the issue a bit--mildly, really mildly--with wiping off really dirty face or hands, especially with regard to clean hands before eating.

She also does not protest going to bed. Occasionally she will ask for one more story, which we at this point will do, because it has never gotten to be a problem. This is one that might verge on the occasional nonnegotiable with me, though, at least in terms of "It is bedtime and you need to stay in your room and stay quiet with the lights off." (No rule against us staying with her, but I can imagine requiring that she attempt to sleep and not play or run around, for instance.) Bed and sleep are pretty big ones for me, as I know that DD is a kid who really melts without enough sleep. Fortunately, we are not having issues with that these days.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?


1. Won't do the chore.
State that it needs to be done and that it is their job
If it does not happen and I want it done I do it for them THEN (and this was after age 4 or so:
"I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and you did not do it. Next time I expect you to do it."

2. Will not get in the bath or won't get into bed
State again that they need to get in bed or take a bath. THEN do "active waiting" where you just kind of stand there calmly but sort of like you are waiting for a bus to come.

I have found these all I ever needed to do. And like many here I get cooperation 95 precent of the time.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

For my 2 and 3 year olds chores are simple and I do them with them as a group activity so it really isnt an issue. If crayons are on the floor I tell them it is time for us to pick up the crayons and if they are reluctant Igive a more specific instruction such as "will you please give me that green crayon?" or "I will get the crayons under the table, can you get the ones under the chair."
But it is their responsibility to participate and while they are almost always happy to help (if I am doing it too) they will occasionally refuse and then I redirect them back to the job until it is engaged in.
As for my dd1, well, she is 13 and there are some issues. RIght now I am "choosing my battles" an awful lot. BUt in theory, if the chore isnt done, she doesnt get to do the next leisure thing she has planned. The problem is her day is full of non leisure things like school and rehearsal and sleep and dinner which I am not going to withhold until she does her work. So it sits sometimes till she has soemthing she wants to do.









If they will not get in the bath/shower, I place them in the bath/shower. If they will not get in bed I place them in their beds.
eta. Keep in mind that this is for the 2 and 3 year olds, not the 13 year old


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

1) Chore

I tell my kids that we won't be moving on to Y until X has been completed. For example, the kids want to do Starfall (their latest obsession) but their dinosaurs are lying neglected all over the floor: "After you put away your dinosaurs, we can do Starfall." Efram: "Starfall! Starfall! Starfall!" Ramona: "But I'm too tiiiiiiiiiiiiiired/cooooooold/threeeeeeee years old to put them away!" Me: "Ok. I'll be unloading the dishwasher. Let me know when you have put them away and then we can do Starfall."

2) Bath

I never make my kids bathe if they don't want to. It's just not important enough to me. If they have just fallen into a mud puddle I will at least wipe off their faces and hands but actually that has never happened.

3) Bed

My kids don't have to be in bed at bedtime. They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want." Somehow my kids just know that they have to stay in their room. They have tested us, of course, and we have just taken them back to their rooms or given them a snack to take with them.

Namaste!


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Yooper, I LOVE your posts. They are inspiring. I will need you, scuba and cc over here to teach me more


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want."
Can someone explain that to me? I never understood that line of thinking. I am not trying to be snarky -- I just don't get that ... if your children can stay up as late as they want playing or whatever, why are they isolated in their rooms instead of being able to be with the rest of the family if they choose?

I am not picking on you, I have seen this in a lot of different posts and discussions and I am wondering what the reasoning is behind it?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Thanks for answering my question









I was truly curious and it is interesting to see the different approaches. I think I have a "spirited" child. Well, I know I do which is what lead me to where I am. She would seriously freak to be put in her room. She does not (will not) sleep by herself and definitely also will not be in a room by herself unless she is getting into something really fun like my moisterizer this morning


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I have my kids stay in their rooms at bedtime for several reasons:

1) While Efram can just get into bed and go to sleep, Ramona can't. She (just like me) needs wind-down time, and being downstairs with us is not wind-down time for her. She needs wind-down time alone. Normally Ramona falls asleep between 8:15 and 8:45, which indicates to me that this is when she is tired. However, if we let her stay downstairs with us, she will stay up until we go to bed at 10:30 or 11. She still gets up at the same time (around 7) even if she's stayed up late, so then she is tired and crabby the next day. The whole "but if she stays up late a few times and is tired the next day, she will learn what the consequence of staying up late is" thing has never worked for her. And I am unwilling to suffer through her crabiness because she didn't get enough sleep. Plus, I see it as my parental duty to ensure she gets the amount of sleep she needs.

2) I need break. Whether people think it's ok or horrible that I need a break, the fact is that I need a break.

3) *IF* the kids even get out of bed and play (which usually only happens about 1/4 of the time), they do so for about 20 or so minutes and then they conk out. It's not like they are isolated for hours and hours in their rooms. On the several occasions that Ramona has really had trouble falling asleep, we have brought her downstairs to be with us.

So, that's why we do that. I hope that my explanation is just that, an explanation, and not an invitation to debate why I shouldn't enforce a bedtime for my kids.

Namaste!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I could not agree more!

I think that can be down sides to any type of parenting for any particular child. One of my SIL's lives "consesnually" I am not saying this would happen for every child, but for her dd, it was not a healthy way to live.

Being provided with information and decision making strategies did not work for her at a young age. When her anxiety became so great that they had to seek out help, they were finally told "She may think that she likes making all these decisions, but it is making her nervous, depressed and anxious. You as the parents need to make some of these decisions."

My niece definitely percieved herself as being unhappier in the short run with these limitations, but within a month her anxiety and depression began to lift. She was indeed happier. But as a seven year old she could not precieve or rationalize that this was why. She did not "consent" to this, but my bil was adament that they keep doing things this way (and it was done very gently).

Now my point here is NOT that most or even many children will be anxious and depressed with consensual living. My point is only as Sledg said that there is no one universal "right" way that will truly make everyone happy.

There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.

I find this interesting. I do agree with the idea that "too many choices" can feel like too much responsibility for a child. And that if that happens, they may push for the adult to assert some control. I can see how a child with too much control than they are ready for, would make them feel not-quite-right. And possibly make them feel very wrong.
But I'm not sure exactly how it plays into a child making choices, that they want to make. How much is too much? It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?
I don't know. But this is something that I've been thinking about. hmmm...


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Sleep is our one ongoing "issue" that seems to be difficult for dd to resolve. She has not yet "learned" that staying up late makes her tired. She just really likes to stay up. It is exhausting for us and I seem to be out of ideas on how to help her regulate better. However, I have severe insomnia problems and have since I was very little so I suspect she inherited them. I hear you on gettign a break! I truly wish there was a way I could get that nightly. Luckily dh and I have a pretty good tag-team approach of helping each other get alone time so it works out. It was the sleep issue that got us into consensual living. The battles were getting very much out of hand and I suspect that that is part of the reason dd has sleep issues. It makes me very sad


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I find this interesting. I do agree with the idea that "too many choices" can feel like too much responsibility for a child. And that if that happens, they may push for the adult to assert some control. I can see how a child with too much control than they are ready for, would make them feel not-quite-right. And possibly make them feel very wrong.
But I'm not sure exactly how it plays into a child making choices, that they want to make. How much is too much? It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?
I don't know. But this is something that I've been thinking about. hmmm...

Yeah, that perplexes me too. It does not sound like a "mutually agreeable" situation. I can totally see a kid having trouble with too many choices. It is hard for me as an adult sometimes. we went to a vegan restaurant in California once and I nearly had a panic attack because there were just too many choices. Luckily I have other people in my life that can help me make choices and I do the same for dd when she needs it. We don't get up in the morning and say to dd "so what are we going to do/eat/play/etc....?" We have a basic routine, normal things we eat, certain toys that dd likes to play with each morning..... It is only when dd says she is not happy to do/eat/play/go somewhere that we reevaluate. She is not in the "driver's seat" any more than dh or I am. I mean even getting dressed, 99% of the time she could care less what she wears so I do not ask her. I pick something out and help her put it on. If she cares that day, then she is free to pick out her clothing. But it is not like the whole day is endless choices (unless dd wants it to be).


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I wasn't inviting a debate on enforcing bedtime. I was just curious is all, even if I may not agree -- thanks for explaining it though.

As far as choices, I think that can be a slippery slope. If someone should have a child who is *anxious* with making choices, I don't see anything wrong with providing a fewer list of choices (for example) "Would you like pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast" -- provided those are choices that your child likes, and provided that you are open if they choose something different. I guess my issue would be if a person knew their child had issues with being provided many choices but used that as a jumping board to make all their choices for them.

I agree with yooper -- most families have basic routines they stick too, even loosely... so it isn't as if people are waking up asking their children "Okay, let's lay out your entire day and every choice in it"... I can see where that would be overwhelming for anyone. Even for me, there are basic things I do pretty much every day -- get up, stretch, eat, check my email, play with my daughter, etc....so while I am making choices all day I suppose, they are easy because they are my basic routine. Same with our daughter... we wake up, I feed her, I change her, we play etc... she is still too young to make choices about clothes and such (she is only nearly 8 months old)... but she pretty much knows what to expect on a daily basis and is agreeable with it ---

As yooper said, it is when she is not agreeable that we evaluate. At her age, I don't sit in front of her and say "I think you are wet, would a diaper change be agreeable?" I usually say "can mama lay you down to change your diaper" and most times she is happy to do it. The times when she protests, I stop what I am doing and let her go butt naked, or hand her a toy, or let her hold the diaper, or whatever.. and 99% of the time it is an agreeable situation for her. Actually, 100% of the time because I have never changed her when she has been crying, and she never has NOT let me change her within a relatively short period of time after I have stepped back for a few minutes... and she has never sat in filth all day either.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

...as far as sleep as it stands now, my daughter still needs me to rock her to sleep which I have no problem with. She sleeps when she is tired (most of the time







)... I never enforce any bedtime and never have and she kind of fell into her own routine of sleep and waking. Most days she takes two naps, lasting anywhere from 45 minutes to 1-1/2 each... one at roughly 11-12 in the afternoon then one around 4 later in the afternoon.

While I don't enforce those naps or bedtime at all, I do recognize when she is getting tired --- rubbing eyes, whining a bit, yawning...zoning.... so I will create an environment that is conducive to sleep -- I will feed her, rock her, sing to her etc... and usually she falls asleep... sometimes she doesn't, then I put her down to play again or I play with her etc... then the routine again... and by the second time I rock etc.. she falls asleep...

At night she is pretty consistent too which I am thankful for, but she doesn't sleep through the night yet and that is okay too (though we have our good nights!)...

I never would or will say "this is your bedtime" or naptime or whatever to a child, that is just me. I think most children can regulate pretty well when they are sleepy and when they aren't -- some learn later than others, like walking or anything.

Having basic routines does help though. We never have had a *schedule* but I suppose we are creatures of habit to a degree (me and dh) so we have had basic *routines* since she has been born.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?










Quote:

We have a basic routine, normal things we eat, certain toys that dd likes to play with each morning..... It is only when dd says she is not happy to do/eat/play/go somewhere that we reevaluate. She is not in the "driver's seat" any more than dh or I am. I mean even getting dressed, 99% of the time she could care less what she wears so I do not ask her. I pick something out and help her put it on. If she cares that day, then she is free to pick out her clothing. But it is not like the whole day is endless choices (unless dd wants it to be).
I don't 'pummel' my children with endless choices.







Certain things I know one dc cares about while the other doesn't usually. Dd likes to pick her own clothes 98% of the time. Ds maybe 10%. So with dd I ask her if she wants to pick her clothes and pick ds' myself. If he says he doesn't want it then I ask him what he does want. Opposite thing with drinking cups, plates, and spoons! Ds is quite particular about cups and silverware, but with him I know which silverware is the only kind he'll use and his fav plates so I will ask about the cup, which varies. Dd I will just get that stuff ready for her unless she indicates she wants something different. Bath time for us is any time one of us wants one







, besides bedtime of course. I explained that this was a safety issue because if I am tired and need sleep it is not safe for them to be in the bath. They understood, so not a problem here. I don't recall witnessing them being anxious or nervous about those choices they have wanted to make.
When they want to make a chioce I feel I can't consent to is when more discussion, negotiation, explaining reasons and giving information about my(and societal) expectations, researching alternatives, re-evaluating my thoughts and feelings on the issue at hand, etc. MIGHT come into play, depending on the issue. Like when dd indicated she didn't want to do schooling







, and when ds was hitting me. The schooling truly that didn't take long to resolve, the hitting was challenging and took a bit more time.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I read the whole thread. I would only say that sledg is right on about much. I also think that this ideology of parenting will morph as the children grow older. A lot of how I parent changes with where my dd is in her evolution and also how I am evolving. The non-consensual stance of Scubamom seems a little inflexible as it doesn't account for differences of personality and the natural flow of growing and changing. Sometimes "forcing" (or as I see it, gentle persuasion) is appropriate and sometimes not. Once you view the world as black and white, the more difficult it is to be happy with all the grey.

Also, I think it would be interesting to revisit this when the children are older, say 5 and 13.

Cheers


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
I read the whole thread. I would only say that sledg is right on about much. I also think that this ideology of parenting will morph as the children grow older. A lot of how I parent changes with where my dd is in her evolution and also how I am evolving. The non-consensual stance of Scubamom seems a little inflexible as it doesn't account for differences of personality and the natural flow of growing and changing. Sometimes "forcing" (or as I see it, gentle persuasion) is appropriate and sometimes not. Once you view the world as black and white, the more difficult it is to be happy with all the grey.

Also, I think it would be interesting to revisit this when the children are older, say 5 and 13.

Cheers

I do not see consensual living as black or white at all. Nor do I see it as inflexible.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

perhaps

although other subscribers to the defined parenting ideology of "consensual living" seem to my small mind not able to see shades of grey that occur in the complex dynamics of parent and child. It's a nice philosophy for most situations but I don't beleive that 100% of the time I will always be able to honor my child's occasional unwillingness to contribute to our household and other matters of importance.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
Also, I think it would be interesting to revisit this when the children are older, say 5 and 13.

I have been hearing this for YEARS







My kids are now 6 and 8 and it still works







The beauty of it is how incredibly flexible and dynamic it is - that's kind of the point.

Anyway, works great for us.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

captain crunchy, yooper and MissRuby, thank you for the last several posts in which you've painted a much more clear understanding (for me) of what consensual living looks like in action in your day to day lives. I think it is difficult to understand this concept without some concrete examples (at least for me). Anyway, it has been very helpful to read the last few posts.

Sooooo, I'm afraid to ask this. What I'm sensing is that the difference between consensual living and not living this way is (and I'm thinking of examples in my own life here, no one else's) that when one chooses to use force it sort of comes from a place of fear....fear that the child will not learn certain things, fear that the child will not come to cooperation and then whatever is planned or needs to be done will then become much more difficult or won't be done at all, fear or concern for others who may be involved, etc. But that fear is maybe not exactly something we're conscious of-the focus is not so much on needs and feelings of both parties involved, but on what needs to be done and learned. While those who are committed to consensual living may have some of the same fears, needs or concerns, they also trust that their children will learn what they need to know and will cooperate because they trust that children do want to....I don't know how to say it, contribute to the well-being of their families? Do good? So since I'm not explaining my thoughts terribly well here's what I imagine: Child won't get in the car, and a sibling needs to be picked up, and for whatever reason there isn't a whole lot of time. As a parent, I'm feeling concern for the child who is waiting (and probably concern about what the teachers will think) and I'm beginning to envision all sorts of difficult things. So I can forcibly place my child into the car, or I can trust that my child will agree once we've talked and take a few moments to set aside my agenda, get in touch with my child's feelings, and both explain my own needs (and/or needs of sibling) and request that the child get in the car. And if I choose the second choice of talking with my child in this way, probably the child, having a sense of autonomy because she has been asked rather than been issued a command and because she senses I trust her and because, having she has had her own feelings and need for autonomy acknowledged, is now willing to cooperate and able to focus on the needs and request of others. (This is an example directly from my own life, and talking to my child about her feelings and asking her to get in the car works very well almost every time-when it doesn't reminding her of the fun thing we're going to do afterwards does work.) Is that anywhere close to making sense and being sort of a description of something that might occur in a consensual living family?

Is living consensually less about children being given a huge array of choices and...again I don't know exactly how to say it, I guess less about "giving in" to a child when a child is resistant, and more about peaceful conflict resolution? About simply finding ways to communicate with children that fully address the needs and feelings of both adult and child? And that communication and honoring of each person's autonomy naturally leads to resolutions that work for both parent and child (rather than just for one or the other)? And the intent of the parent matters, because a demand disguised as a request still feels like a demand, which people naturally resist (we've all had that experience)? I have this sense that describing consensual living makes it sound more complicated than it actually is.

Okay. To be clear I am serious in asking these questions because I have this feeling that my understanding of consensual living is incomplete and inaccurate. I would like to understand it better.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

living consensually less about children being given a huge array of choices and...again I don't know exactly how to say it, I guess *less about "giving in" to a child when a child is resistant, and more about peaceful conflict resolution? About simply finding ways to communicate with children that fully address the needs and feelings of both adult and child? And that communication and honoring of each person's autonomy naturally leads to resolutions that work for both parent and child?* I have this sense that describing consensual living makes it sound more complicated than it actually is.

Okay. To be clear I am serious in asking these questions because I have this feeling that my understanding of consensual living is incomplete and inaccurate. I would like to understand it better.
I think the bolded part (mine) is really what it is about in a lot of ways. To me, it isn't at all about *giving in* but more about letting go. Letting go of the ingrained belief that many of us have that if we allow our children autonomy and live consensually with them, that they will turn out to be out of control nutcases who don't know how to function. Letting go of the idea that children are our property and it is up to *us* to steer the course of their life so they can make us proud. Letting go of the dynamic of a leader and a follower, of a boss and a subject -- letting go of the idea that our children would not learn manners, or math, or how to dress themselves, or brush their teeth, or socialize with others, or eat with a fork, or go to sleep or share, or whatever...without us there to control their actions and lecture them through their interactions... or to sanction them when they *fail* us.

it is about trusting that my daughter is a capable human being with finely tuned instincts, and a love and trust for me that automatically means she will seek out my guidance and protection (from birth). It is about trusting that she wants to live peacefully and lovingly and that she wants to do the *acceptable* thing -- it is about trusting _myself_ too --

It really comes down to the golden rule for me I suppose. Treating my daughter how I would want to be treated. Treating her how I wanted and how others in my life have expressed they desired to be treated in childhood -- how they felt (even in the most loving homes) that their parents didn't think them capable of making decisions, that they always felt like they knew where their *place* was, how they felt like their parents loved them but never saw them as *equals*... and on down the line...

I also feel that I want my daughter to expect a certain level of treatment from everyone she encounters in her life. I want her to expect a level of treatment with bosses, friends, co-workers, lovers, her spouse, etc... where she is heard, respected, listened to, appreciated and where she seeks out mutually agreeable situations to conflicts or issues that arise. --- I want her to see her life and the relationships she makes in them as choices. I see so many people who feel they have to *accept* a certain level of treatment (or mistreatment) because well, "that's the way it is"... I feel if she is raised in an environment where she learns skills such as negotiation, non violent communication, problem solving, active listening, respect, empathy, win-win situations, self discipline and self control -- all because these actions have all been equally displayed _towards her_ -- it will serve her and help her to create a more satisfied life in the long run.

I don't like hypocricy either. I never have and I never will. I do not like the "do as I say not as I do" type parenting and I see that across the board... mainstream and GD... things that parents force their children to do that they would never STAND for ANYONE forcing them to do because well, "they are my kids and I know best"... That will always rub me the wrong way.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Can someone explain that to me? I never understood that line of thinking. I am not trying to be snarky -- I just don't get that ... if your children can stay up as late as they want playing or whatever, why are they isolated in their rooms instead of being able to be with the rest of the family if they choose?

I am not picking on you, I have seen this in a lot of different posts and discussions and I am wondering what the reasoning is behind it?

This is the rule in my house too. I think that beign in their bedroom encoruages them to sleep and it has lower stimulation. Bedtime is the time when kids are in their rooms retired for the nights. I cant control if or when they fall asleep and I dont try. But I encourage them to do so at a time that works well for them.
It is just like the mealtime thing. I choose the bedtime (based on their levels of tiredness and sleep needs) and walk them through they steps toget there. THey choose whether or not , and when to sleep.
Also my kids, when tired arent usually very happy out participating with us. THey want to go to bed and sleep and will whine and cry and be unhappy with just about anything until they go to bed.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

"I have been hearing this for YEARS My kids are now 6 and 8 and it still works The beauty of it is how incredibly flexible and dynamic it is - that's kind of the point.

Anyway, works great for us."

I hear you. I get the impression that are different intensities of practice. We could all say we practice NCP but all be doing very different things. I was referring specifically to Scubamom as she appeared to be upset by how some of us parent our children.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
captain crunchy, yooper and MissRuby, thank you for the last several posts in which you've painted a much more clear understanding (for me) of what consensual living looks like in action in your day to day lives. I think it is difficult to understand this concept without some concrete examples (at least for me). Anyway, it has been very helpful to read the last few posts.

Sooooo, I'm afraid to ask this. What I'm sensing is that the difference between consensual living and not living this way is (and I'm thinking of examples in my own life here, no one else's) that when one chooses to use force it sort of comes from a place of fear....fear that the child will not learn certain things, fear that the child will not come to cooperation and then whatever is planned or needs to be done will then become much more difficult or won't be done at all, fear or concern for others who may be involved, etc. But that fear is maybe not exactly something we're conscious of-the focus is not so much on needs and feelings of both parties involved, but on what needs to be done and learned. While those who are committed to consensual living may have some of the same fears, needs or concerns, they also trust that their children will learn what they need to know and will cooperate because they trust that children do want to....I don't know how to say it, contribute to the well-being of their families? Do good? So since I'm not explaining my thoughts terribly well here's what I imagine: Child won't get in the car, and a sibling needs to be picked up, and for whatever reason there isn't a whole lot of time. As a parent, I'm feeling concern for the child who is waiting (and probably concern about what the teachers will think) and I'm beginning to envision all sorts of difficult things. So I can forcibly place my child into the car, or I can trust that my child will agree once we've talked and take a few moments to set aside my agenda, get in touch with my child's feelings, and both explain my own needs (and/or needs of sibling) and request that the child get in the car. And if I choose the second choice of talking with my child in this way, probably the child, having a sense of autonomy because she has been asked rather than been issued a command and because she senses I trust her and because, having she has had her own feelings and need for autonomy acknowledged, is now willing to cooperate and able to focus on the needs and request of others. (This is an example directly from my own life, and talking to my child about her feelings and asking her to get in the car works very well almost every time-when it doesn't reminding her of the fun thing we're going to do afterwards does work.) Is that anywhere close to making sense and being sort of a description of something that might occur in a consensual living family?

Is living consensually less about children being given a huge array of choices and...again I don't know exactly how to say it, I guess less about "giving in" to a child when a child is resistant, and more about peaceful conflict resolution? About simply finding ways to communicate with children that fully address the needs and feelings of both adult and child? And that communication and honoring of each person's autonomy naturally leads to resolutions that work for both parent and child (rather than just for one or the other)? And the intent of the parent matters, because a demand disguised as a request still feels like a demand, which people naturally resist (we've all had that experience)? I have this sense that describing consensual living makes it sound more complicated than it actually is.

Okay. To be clear I am serious in asking these questions because I have this feeling that my understanding of consensual living is incomplete and inaccurate. I would like to understand it better.

Yes! I think you hit the nail on the head







I know how people can think that is means that the kids run the show. That is very much what I thought when I first heard of the concept. It did not even occur to me that *I* actually grew up in a mostly non-coersive home until I really started thinking about it. But because we usually discuss problems on a board like this, it seems like the kids are running the show when is reality most days are very peaceful and agreeable in our life.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Is living consensually less about children being given a huge array of choices and...again I don't know exactly how to say it, I guess less about "giving in" to a child when a child is resistant, and more about peaceful conflict resolution? About simply finding ways to communicate with children that fully address the needs and feelings of both adult and child? And that communication and honoring of each person's autonomy naturally leads to resolutions that work for both parent and child (rather than just for one or the other)? And the intent of the parent matters, because a demand disguised as a request still feels like a demand, which people naturally resist (we've all had that experience)? I have this sense that describing consensual living makes it sound more complicated than it actually is.

I think you've got a pretty good handle on it







I do find it hard to describe here because it really isn't hard or laborious or an endless stream of choices and debating. We just live our life together, valuing each other's input and point of view. No big deal.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I think the bolded part (mine) is really what it is about in a lot of ways. To me, it isn't at all about *giving in* but more about letting go. Letting go of the ingrained belief that many of us have that if we allow our children autonomy and live consensually with them, that they will turn out to be out of control nutcases who don't know how to function. Letting go of the idea that children are our property and it is up to *us* to steer the course of their life so they can make us proud. Letting go of the dynamic of a leader and a follower, of a boss and a subject -- letting go of the idea that our children would not learn manners, or math, or how to dress themselves, or brush their teeth, or socialize with others, or eat with a fork, or go to sleep or share, or whatever...without us there to control their actions and lecture them through their interactions... or to sanction them when they *fail* us.

Sledg, your post about fear was interesting, and this quote from CaptainCrunchy is interesting too, because I don't really have any of these fears to let go of. I'm not worried about any of these things. I don't feel like my kids are my property, my goal isn't to create children that make ME proud. I'm sure they'll eventually learn good manners and hygiene. So why do I need to enforce the rules? Why am I willing to coerce, if necessary? I've been thinking soooo much about this lately, and this is the conclusion I've come to.

First, I thought, I could never live consensually, I'm too selfish. But then I thought more about it and decided I had to give myself a little more credit. I'm not THAT selfish. But I do have different priorities.

It's not that I don't think it's important for my children to develop self-sufficiency, expect respect from others, learn good manners, learn good negotiation skills, learn to trust their own feelings and honor others, and be in healthy relationships. It's just that I feel that they can do that with a gradual handing-over of responsibility, if you will, and a more authoratative model. I feel that will work because I've seen it work. I know plenty of people with all these skills, I might even include myself among them (sometimes) who had authoratative family structures.

See, I think if we chose to live consensually, we'd have to devote much more time to negotiations, which would leave us less time for maintaining our rental properties which are (hopefully) going to translate into great college funds for our kids. Our children would have a harder time developing a good relationship (which they have) with my in-laws, who are gentle, but authoratative grandparents. My marriage would be strained, because my dh would have a HARD time with this. I wouldn't be able to make extra income watching my friend's baby 3 days a week, which I can use for swimming classes for my dd. These are just a few examples.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it wouldn't take that much more time. Am I? Does it really work with two kids and a part-time job? And is it worth it? Right now, I don't think so. Not for my family. But, I could be wrong. It happened once before...


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
I hear you. I get the impression that are different intensities of practice. We could all say we practice NCP but all be doing very different things. I was referring specifically to Scubamom as she appeared to be upset by how some of us parent our children.

Well, I'm probably pretty high on that intensity scale, in terms of practice. Pat and I are best friends and she says she learned it all from me







I tend to think we are on the journey together. Pat feels DEEPLY for children, it is part of her core. We have talked about the challenges of this. When she (and me too) hear of putting a child under running water against their will - it stings a bit. You kind of feel yourself as a child and think - holy **it that has to suck. Feeling that doesn't mean that we think the parents are monsters or that we are judging them but you think wow, maybe if they could just see it from the child's POV they might rethink it. And you know, sometimes they do but sometimes they don't. I try to share what works in my home. I have just never found it necessary or useful to *make* my children do things they don't want to do. I've yet to run across something important enough to use force. And I have some pretty amazing, intense and at times challenging children  In the end, I just believe it is a choice.

I really am not trying to further the debate, I don't care for the more philosophical discussions, I prefer the nuts and bolts of daily living discussions. I just wanted to perhaps offer some insight into Pat's reactions. She is so great and so full of love, she had a rough childhood and she literally hurts when she thinks others are hurting. She has been instrumental in fighting corporal punishment in our local schools and she homeschools







I came from a GD family and so my journey has been very different. Still we are here choosing a lifestyle that most people don't get at all, because we really believe in it.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

While those who are committed to consensual living may have some of the same fears, needs or concerns, they also trust that their children will learn what they need to know and will cooperate because they trust that children do want to....I don't know how to say it, contribute to the well-being of their families?
Definitely for me. I was apprehensive when dd first said she didn't want to do schooling (she attends a public virtual charter school, in kindergarten, so schools at home). I really needed to talk to my best friend after that and do a lot of evaluating my feelings and expectations. Being my first year teaching under a curriculum has been a learning experience for me and we are both okay with it all the way around now(for now







). I am still researching unschooling but can not legally do it right now. I may try to get legal so it is open for an option in the future. And sledg the rest of your post was as usual eloquent.

Quote:

Is living consensually less about children being given a huge array of choices and...again I don't know exactly how to say it, I guess less about "giving in" to a child when a child is resistant, and more about peaceful conflict resolution? About simply finding ways to communicate with children that fully address the needs and feelings of both adult and child? And that communication and honoring of each person's autonomy naturally leads to resolutions that work for both parent and child (rather than just for one or the other)? And the intent of the parent matters, because a demand disguised as a request still feels like a demand, which people naturally resist (we've all had that experience)? I have this sense that describing consensual living makes it sound more complicated than it actually is.








Very much so.







I for one could make anything sound complicated.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
It's not that I don't think it's important for my children to develop self-sufficiency, expect respect from others, learn good manners, learn good negotiation skills, learn to trust their own feelings and honor others, and be in healthy relationships. It's just that I feel that they can do that with a gradual handing-over of responsibility, if you will, and a more authoratative model. I feel that will work because I've seen it work. I know plenty of people with all these skills, I might even include myself among them (sometimes) who had authoratative family structures.

Sarah, ITA with this. And, I'm living proof that it works.

As DS ages and becomes more able to communicate with me, I'm sure we'll negotiate more - but to me, that's the gradual handing over you're talking about above. I maintain that right now, *my* son isn't capable of giving alternatives and negotiating solutions (at 2 yrs old), not because I don't give him the opportunity, he just doesn't seem to understand when I try to do it with him (hence the previous post about him just staring at me when I try to discuss things with him sometimes







). I just think it's the way he's wired...

I will be more than happy to talk things through with him, when he is actually participating in the discussion.







However, for now, on the occasional situations where he's not willing to budge and his solution isn't OK with me, I'll just continue to talk, make the best of it, and move forward.

As I said before, I'm really looking forward to him participating more!


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Coming in late tonight... but YES to Sledg's post!


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I have two questions:

1) Above I mentioned age as a factor but also now realize that having your kids home with you when they get older and homeschooling makes NCP a workable paradigm. I work full time, I'm a single mom and my kid is in second grade at a local school. I think we do our best, however, do the practioners here of NCP beleive it is possible to be on board 100% under these circumstances?

2) There are a lot of things that as adults we are "forced" to do that we don't like - paying rent, cleaning up puke, etc. (Hopefully we find a way to follow our bliss) - There are things we do for the greater good for our families and society that aren't immediately pleasant. As children grow older how do you teach this aspect of life?

June C.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

1) Above I mentioned age as a factor but also now realize that having your kids home with you when they get older and homeschooling makes NCP a workable paradigm. I work full time, I'm a single mom and my kid is in second grade at a local school. I think we do our best, however, do the practioners here of NCP beleive it is possible to be on board 100% under these circumstances?

2) There are a lot of things that as adults we are "forced" to do that we don't like - paying rent, cleaning up puke, etc. (Hopefully we find a way to follow our bliss) - There are things we do for the greater good for our families and society that aren't immediately pleasant. As children grow older how do you teach this aspect of life?
I can't really delve into the first part of your question because I am not a working mother and I would imagine that it would be more difficult to be a non-coercive parent when you throw in the dynamics of being single, working, and when your child is in school. I do think it can be workable though -- that it is a concious decision to make every interaction with your child a consensual one -- to the best of your ability.

As far as your second question, I don't feel we really have to do anything in this life. Barring being abducted and forced at gunpoint -- I believe life is a choice -- including paying rent and cleaning up puke. Some choices feel like they are things we *have* to do, but what they really are, are choices we make because the alternative to NOT making the choice is not acceptible to us. We choose to pay our rent because being homeless is not an acceptible alternative. We clean up puke because as much as we may not want to...we don't want puke on the floor for days MORE than we don't want to clean it up, so we choose to clean it up.

I maintain the best way to teach children these things is through modeling -- and for living joyously. Her is an example: I don't like living in filth...so I want the house clean...so I choose to clean it... there are two ways I can go about it. I can clean it and b!tch the whole time about it and grumble and be a martyr... or I can make it as enjoyable as I can and just do what I need to do....maybe listen to music while I clean, enlist the help of my child, invite a friend over for coffee and talking while I do some chores, do one room at a time - or if I had big cash, I could hire someone -- whatever --

There are many things in life that we may not choose to be doing at the moment, we would rather be sitting on a beach soaking up sun, whatever... but we choose to do them because we like the end result of the task and it makes life more enjoyable, or we aren't willing to choose the consequence that comes with not doing the act (in this case, a filthy house).

I have no doubt that my daughter will learn that life isn't an endless party, and that once in a while we choose to do things that aren't so pleasurable because we enjoy the result of doing it when it is done, or because we don't want to choose the alternative conswquence. I don't think it is something I have to actively teach. It happens in life all the time and I am confident my daughter will observe and learn.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
I have two questions:

1) Above I mentioned age as a factor but also now realize that having your kids home with you when they get older and homeschooling makes NCP a workable paradigm. I work full time, I'm a single mom and my kid is in second grade at a local school. I think we do our best, however, do the practioners here of NCP beleive it is possible to be on board 100% under these circumstances?

My child is not in the second grade and I only work part time so I cannot give you any real life experience. But I will say that I have met several consensually living families with kids of all ages. Many of them attend school, usuallly because the child wants to. I think it depends on what you consider 100%. To me living consensually is a relationship in our family (meaning dh, dd, and me). I do not dictate how other people choose to relate to dd (within reason, obviously abusive behavior would be stopped). For instance my ILs are very authoratative yet they have a relationship with dd. It is different than ours. Dd already knows that gramma an grampa have "rules" and she still loves them and enjoys spending time with them. If they overstep her boundries too many times, she may choose to not spend time with them (I can see that happeneing some day) and that will be up to her. I think of school in the same way. We plan to unschool but if dd wants to go to school, we will do our best to facilitate that desire. She will understand that in order to achieve her goal of going to school, she will have to put up with some useless rules like asking to use the bathroom, being told what, when,and where to learn, standing in lines, and having to have permission to ask a question. To me, that does not change our relationship. Of course, she would have the option to quit going to school any time she wanted whereas it seems that is not an option for you at this time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
2) There are a lot of things that as adults we are "forced" to do that we don't like - paying rent, cleaning up puke, etc. (Hopefully we find a way to follow our bliss) - There are things we do for the greater good for our families and society that aren't immediately pleasant. As children grow older how do you teach this aspect of life?

June C.

This has been addressed several time on this fourm, but I am not sure it has happened in this thread yet. Adults are never truly forced to do anything. If we do not want to take a shower, some bigger person is not going to pick us up and physically put us in it....or tell us no story before bed if we don't..... We are not forced to pay rent. We choose to because the benefit of having a place to live outweighs the negeative of paying rent. We clean up puke because cleaning it up is more desirable to us than having it sit there and stink indefinately. Maybe we are having a bad day? We can choose to let it sit there for a while. We can choose to let it sit there forever if we don't care. The natural consequence is that we will have a pile of puke sitting there. In my family anyway, we allow dd to explore these things. Like the diaper earlier. I would allow my dd to get a diaper rash if she felt that was less unpleasant than having a diaper change. If she does not want to eat one day, that is fine....she will learn that the result is hunger. I have found that the more I allow her to experience these things, the more willing she is to trust that I am telling the truth when I say the laundry powder does not taste good. I trust that dd WILL learn to become a functioning member of society without me forcing/coersing/reminding/dealing with her to. In the families I mentioned above, many had teenagers. Those kids were raised from birth in consensual households. They were BY FAR the most pleasant, enjoyable, teenagers I have ever come into contact with. Some had blue hair, listened to music I find appalling, had strange piercings.... Far from being the lawless brats I have heard people tell me my kid will become. They understood empathy, helpfulness, how to treat people, and how to interact with people of ALL ages better than most teens. They were shockingly interested in other people whether very young or old. So that is just another way that I can trust that my child will learn these things. Plus I see it with my own eyes.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

No point recreating the wheel ITA with Crunchy and Yooper


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

thank you for the replies, they were very enlightening. I think this is a great philosophy for families. I beleive that it is easier to implement if you have the "privilege", i.e., energy, finances, education and passion to see it though to the full implementation. I like the ideas, and do my best to incorporate some of them. However, a complete dedication to the extent that Capn crunchy, Scubamom (and the mom with the 6 and 8 y olds) have dedicated themselves isn't realistic for my family. I would guess that other families might find the same. My kid did not "choose" what kind of schooling she wanted. She went to school, or perhaps in the vernacular was "forced". Just as she was "forced" to be in daycare full time since she was 12 months. I made the "choice" though I was not "forced" to do this. I could have chosen other options that in my mind were poor choices. I am fine with my path and my dd is a great kid. I don't see that these choices have put her in a one down position to kids who have been raised differently.

I parent with ideas I like, that are fitted to our temperments, our socio/economic situation and my culture/education and class. Regardless of how we decide to parent it is never done in a vacuum. I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I like the ideas of NCP and NFL, I choose what works and don't sweat it if I can't be the spokesperson for that paradigm. Often discussions on MDC forget the role that privilege and class plays in our ability and desire to make these decisions for our family.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
2) There are a lot of things that as adults we are "forced" to do that we don't like - paying rent, cleaning up puke, etc. (Hopefully we find a way to follow our bliss) - There are things we do for the greater good for our families and society that aren't immediately pleasant. As children grow older how do you teach this aspect of life?

June C.

I can't answer your first question.

Whether or not adults "have to" do things has been discussed many many times. Sure we do things we don't want to do. It seems like "have to" can be a matter of semantics. Ultimately, we have a choice. But if the alternative is completely unacceptable, how much of a choice is it really?
But like the pp said, its very very rare that an adult would be physically forced to do something against their will (unless you're being arrested, I suppose).
As far as kids go, I don't see that one would have to *teach* this to their kids. I think there are many instances where a child could/would choose to do something they don't particularly want to do, for the good of the family. I don't see how coercing teaches empathy. I only know one other family that is consensual, and I know her kids sometimes *choose* to do things that wasn't their first choice, because it matters to someone else. I think you can live consensually, and still be "family centered" (as opposed to child centered).


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

1) Above I mentioned age as a factor but also now realize that having your kids home with you when they get older and homeschooling makes NCP a workable paradigm. I work full time, I'm a single mom and my kid is in second grade at a local school. I think we do our best, however, do the practioners here of NCP beleive it is possible to be on board 100% under these circumstances?
Not sure what NCP or NFL stands for







. As far as consensual living I imagine it may take more energy in those circumstances. For me being single would be the issue that would make things difficult. If it weren't for my dp I would not be able to stay home with the kids.

Quote:

2) There are a lot of things that as adults we are "forced" to do that we don't like - paying rent, cleaning up puke, etc. (Hopefully we find a way to follow our bliss) - There are things we do for the greater good for our families and society that aren't immediately pleasant. As children grow older how do you teach this aspect of life?
I agree with pp about the 'forced' thing. You aren't even really forced to obey laws, though if you choose not to AND get caught you MIGHT be forced into consequeneces. Honestly I believe at 4 and 6 my kids already have a kid-sized grasp on the concept







of doing things for the greater good, even if unpleasant. I'm sitting here reading this morning and you have typed up an example that happened here last night. We all have a cold, some sinuses and coughing, nothing majorly icky. Last night we were running around in circles playing chase. We had eaten sandwiches and soup not too long before. SOOOO, ds started coughing and puked







. I got a bucket to clean it up and the kids both wanted to help clean up. I said that's okay, I've got it, and they both INSISTED they WANTED to help me. So honestly even though I was a bit uncomfortable at the thought I realized it was great that they wanted to do that. We all worked together and had it cleaned in no time at all







. I certainly didn't force them to clean it so they could learn some things aren't immediately pleasant but are still best to be done, they chose that path themselves despite the unpleasantness.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

While those who are committed to consensual living may have some of the same fears, needs or concerns, they also trust that their children will learn what they need to know and will cooperate because they trust that children do want to....I don't know how to say it, contribute to the well-being of their families?
Wanted to mention something I don't think I did in my pp. For me on top of trusting my children to cooperate is also having the ability to look for positive intent if it happens that they don't want to cooperate or if they don't meet my expectations, even if that positive intent is not immediately apparent to me. So in some circumstances I may delve into my expectations and those may change, if appropriate (obviously my expectation to not be hit will not change







). And in some circumstances I may delve into the reason they are having a difficult time cooperating at that moment, and do what I can to remedy that. I want to say AGAIN, I am in no way perfect or 100% anything, but do my very best at all of this and am evolving and growing constantly.


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

just to jump in ... i find all this quite fascinating. but i can feel the pressure all day that maybe i am not being consensual enough and it is kind of making me crazy. maybe i should start a separate thread on this ....... the other day dd scratched herself, said NO to antispectic cream and i let it go. i thought it was minor and forgot about it. today i saw that it looked pretty ugly. i put on the cream while she screamed. i got a lecture from dh. and i wonder if i had not been reading this thread and trying so hard to minimize coercion whether i would have handled it better from the beginning...? i dont know. i think it is the first time i have coerced and she looked mighty defeated afterwards.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do think privledge, eductaion, money, etc..... helps. But I also wanted to make clear that our family has made economic choices that most would think are insane in order to live consensually....and not just for dd's sake, but everyone's sake. Dh and I are capable of making a great deal of money. We have advanced degrees in two very high income fields. We knew for certain when we got married that if we had children one of us would stay home. And because we each could make a great deal of money, this was a feasible option. And that is what we started out doing. I quit my job the day after dd was born and dh continued to work. And while I really liked the arrangement, dh did not. He did not like missing out on our daily family life. It was not agreeable to him to continue on as is. I was also not agreeable to me to go back to work full time either. So despite the fact that everyone we know thinks we are nuts, dh quit his very high paying job to venture forth and start own photography business. The nature of his business allows him to have dd with him any time he or she wants. To compensate for some of the lost income, I took a part time job as a bartender. The tips are good, I only have to be out of the home two nights a week, and I enjoy the work. We are dirt poor right now which was a compromise....we currently make about 1/10th of what we were when dh was working. But we are finally at a mutually agreeable situation. AND, even though we do seem nuts we did think of the "what ifs" of the situation. If I were to die, become ill, or leave, dh can continue his business without needing to rely on school/daycare (unless dd chooses to go to those places). And if dh were to be out of the picture, I am able to live on my bartending income by increasing the shifts to four a week, all of which start roughly one hour before dd goes to sleep for the night. We have access to caregivers that not only agree with consensual living but are also some of dd's favorite people that she could spend that hour with.

However, I do acknowledge that it took a certain amount of privledge to even have the luxury of pondering creative parenting and employment opportunities.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Interesting post Yooper!

Quote:

I do think privledge, eductaion, money, etc..... helps. But I also wanted to make clear that our family has made economic choices that most would think are insane in order to live consensually....and not just for dd's sake, but everyone's sake
We feel the same! I agree that it is completely possible to live consensually without privledge or a big income! We are living paycheck to paycheck for the most part, even though like you and your husband, we have the capacity to earn more -- My husband wanted to go back to school though to pursue a degree he actually cares about and I very much wanted to stay home with our daughter...so that is what we did. In addition, my husband is a guitar and bass instructor and although the money is very good depending on the number of students... my husband cut the number of students he teaches in order to spend more time with dd and I.

I imagine it would be more difficult in a single parent situation, however I just wanted to pipe in as well and say that you don't have to be wealthy.

We are privledged in the sense that we have things like running water, electricity, clothing, food etc... and for that I am thankful -- but it certainly doesn't take a 6 figure income or unlimited time together to live consensually. On paper we live under the poverty level (though it doesn't feel like it because we are frugal, creative, and love voluntary simplicity!)

...so I suppose when people pose the suggestion or arguement that one must be wealthy or have unlimited time and resources to live consensually, I am living proof that it is not the case. Yes, I am fortunate to be able to stay home with our daughter, but as yooper said, it was a conscious decision certainly not made by our financial status!

I am not at all attempting to get into a "stay at home, working mom" debate... I am just suggesting that even if one works outside the home or is single, or whatever, consensual living is still possible. Due to time constraints etc, (like you will get fired if you aren't at work on time etc) I can see where it may not be possible in EVERY situation, but you can always try...and impliment it in every situation you are able -- to me, that would help make the situations that may not be so negotiable in the moment, run more smoothly -- because it would seem that the child would realize that whenever able (way more times than not) you are willing to live consensually.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

FTR - I am WOHM and I strive to live concentually.

I believe it's all in the intent - we all are challenged with something, be it single parenting, working outside of home, not being "financially stable", having multiple kids, etc., etc.,

I actually see that those challenges bring us closer together, and living consentually helps us all overcome those challenges.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thank you to all the consensual-living parents who wrote such great responses. I think I have been resisting believing that consensual living can work, because it is SO FAR from how I was raised...and I'm still not sure where on the continuum I fall, philosophically.

But it's great to see how this works in daily life, and it's inspiring.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I got up to about page 5 and am still reading, but I wanted to say that I really liked what Maya and Sledg were saying. I have become so much different than how I was raised, and really try to respect my son's will and wishes on a lot of things. BUT I often feel there are times that he lacks the foresight or understanding on certain things as many pps have said..i.e. I was thinking about this last Thursday because that is when we have a certain Mom/Pop/Tot class. He often is busy playing after breakfast and says he doesn't want to go (he always does this, just as he always says he doesn't want to go home once we head home). He tends not to like transitions and just doesn't seem to understand that we can play cars all day, but this class only occurs once a week. I know he always loves it once we get there, and if we got there and he said he wanted to go home, we would go home. I do not force him to go physically or cajole him or threaten him. I simply keep getting us ready and we go. I don't stuff him crying in a stroller. On certain occasions when he protests more diligently, we don't go. I feel like it could be scary to a young toddler to feel that he has so much power, that the slightest resistence on his part can change the plans for the whole family. I think one can balance respecting a child's need for autonomy and need for guidance.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I think there are many instances where a child could/would choose to do something they don't particularly want to do, for the good of the family. I don't see how coercing teaches empathy. I only know one other family that is consensual, and I know her kids sometimes *choose* to do things that wasn't their first choice, because it matters to someone else.

Speaking of puke earlier, and of kids doing things they don't particularly like for the good of the family, I want to share this story. My son is 4, and he is very sensitive to smells and gross things. He gags if he's nearby when his little sister poops in his potty seat, gags at dirty diapers, gags if someone is throwing up, gags is someone has a huge snotball running down their face. But, he has been known to wipe a sister's gunky nose and clean up a sister's puke-because he loves them and wants to help. So gagging all the way, and without being asked, he will grab a tissue and wipe the snot or, as he did recently, grab a paper towel and wipe up the puke. It always amazes me. I just had to share and brag.









So I think kids really do have the capacity to see another person in need, and to help that person even if it means doing something they don't like. Come to think of it, my kids do this rather often.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Speaking of puke earlier, and of kids doing things they don't particularly like for the good of the family, I want to share this story. My son is 4, and he is very sensitive to smells and gross things. He gags if he's nearby when his little sister poops in his potty seat, gags at dirty diapers, gags if someone is throwing up, gags is someone has a huge snotball running down their face. But, he has been known to wipe a sister's gunky nose and clean up a sister's puke-because he loves them and wants to help. So gagging all the way, and without being asked, he will grab a tissue and wipe the snot or, as he did recently, grab a paper towel and wipe up the puke. It always amazes me. I just had to share and brag.









So I think kids really do have the capacity to see another person in need, and to help that person even if it means doing something they don't like. Come to think of it, my kids do this rather often.

That is so SWEET!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I've read and explored this issue for years and finally found words for my perceptions.

You could say there were things ds "had" to do, without a context of compromise. Yet the context of significance that TCS attached to the absence of mutual agreements, I can honestly did not exist here. I think what I finally saw was that TCS did not have a language for taking the larger context more seriously than the surface exchange. On a spiritual level we were such equals, and the journey founded on such mutual trust and respect, nothing is lost here if ds "has to" go along with something very important to me, or vice versa. The language of a common preference presumed that if one was told they "had to" then trust or autonomy was lost. But this was just never true here, ever. We use the language of "Have too", and we have even enjoyed it! Both selfishly and as the person along for the ride....

I grumbled loudly when ds would insist I read him twenty million stories or else he would not fall asleep. I might scowl and pout if dh says he forgot something from the house and insists we must go back for it. Ds scowled and whined when I said the store closed in five minutes and he had sixty seconds to throw on coat and shoes. And it has never made a bit of difference between us. I really mean that.

Maybe it's because, we all get to say it. Or simply because, sometimes "have too" captures the person's truth in a moment with clarity and brevity~and we recognize it as a kind of truth, and trust in that. Beneath a surface of spontaneous grumbles and protests is the unspoken trust and confidence which reflects the REAL spirit and context of the exchange.

I suspect there are other people who walk away with the same impression of TCS. It took me awhile to put it into words, but I'm glad I did!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Another philosophical thread. Comments?

Pat


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

OMG. My poor DS must be an alien -- when he was 3 he used to set up binary requests - and then when each request was given him, he'd reject it and demand the other - back and forth - back and forth . . . . .

Example of real life situation. In bathroom at DS favorite sushi restaurant because DS wanted to go there (very consensual so far). DS says "I want to go potty" Mom: "OK - lets go potty" DS: "No. I want to wash hands" Mom: "OK - lets wash hand", DS: angrier now "No. I want to go potty". Repeat this back and forth and each time DS getting more and more upset.

Honestly - you all have exemplary children that these sort of lose-lose situations never seemed to be foisted on any of you . . . . .


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity.

I couldn't disagree more. For example, lavishing a child with toys and gifts has never in the history of the universe had the effect you suggest.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I seriously doubt a child has a burning desire to "run across a parking lot" they might, however, have a strong desire to run and you might happen to be in a parking lot. So, we would talk about what is happening in the parking lot and find a safe way to have the need met. Dh has never wanted to run across a parking lot either - but I would also explain to him that it might not be the best spot









This type of suggestion always leaves me







My DC are apparently psychologically deft? At 19 months - heck, at 4 years - they do not follow the explanation you are suggesting. Maybe they don't have the patience or impulse control. Maybe they just don't want to listen. But detailed explanation of the "whys" in the world -- has ZERO effectiveness with the 19 month old - and more, but still limited effectiveness even at 4 years.

I guess my kids are hatched from an egg on this . . . . ????


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## edswife (Jun 28, 2006)

Teeth brushing and riding in the car seat are the two big ones. He doesn't understand what will happen if he never brushes his teeth and I'm the one that will end up paying the dental bills. So I insist on that. Though I do try and make it as pleasant as possible and have only been met with resistance once.
He does have to wear a diaper if we go out but not in the house.
I will make him bathe if he manages to get a poopy diaper off all by himself. I have this fear of e Coli.
I guess if it's health/safety related, I try and be as accomodating as possible but in the end I'm going to insist. If it's going to have long term consequences I think I have to step in and guide him. And insist if it's necessary. If it's only going to affect the family for a few days/weeks then it isn't that big a deal.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Well I think it isnt so much as that we have no intention of using force, but that we see our way around it whenever possible. But arent hesitant to pull that trump card when we see that the situation come to it.
So we all may appear to be doing the same things at the beginning. Negotiating, making things fun, providing options and choices when availible. The difference comes in only if we have exhausted all options or time and we still have an uncooperative child, do you coerce or not. And it is in this final moment that we differ I believe. Although the tools we use up to that point may be very similar indeed.









:

I'm having this same discussion on another thread right now. Playful parenting, distracting, providing options -- these are tools that are not the unique purvue of the CL school of thought -- the defining moment for CL v. Non-CL is if the child still resists - do you coerce or not. e.g. if the child, against all attempts by the parent to compromise, etc. still does not want to get in the carseat -- do you stay home until child wants to go? or do you put child in carseat anyway?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
This type of suggestion always leaves me







My DC are apparently psychologically deft? At 19 months - heck, at 4 years - they do not follow the explanation you are suggesting. Maybe they don't have the patience or impulse control. Maybe they just don't want to listen. But detailed explanation of the "whys" in the world -- has ZERO effectiveness with the 19 month old - and more, but still limited effectiveness even at 4 years.

I guess my kids are hatched from an egg on this . . . . ????

My experience has been that our son has learned to use judgement by having an opportunity to do so, rather than being expected "to listen" and obey. He listens to his own mind, I don't expect him "to mind" mine. We work to find solutions which meet his patience level, impulse control and needs for safety.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Originally Posted by ambdkf:
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity.

TripMom:

Quote:

I couldn't disagree more. For example, lavishing a child with toys and gifts has never in the history of the universe had the effect you suggest.
I consider generosity and abundance from the universe in non-material things: freedom, autonomy, health, respect, intellect, ability, friendship, community, love, etc.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*







:

I'm having this same discussion on another thread right now. Playful parenting, distracting, providing options -- these are tools that are not the unique purvue of the CL school of thought -- the defining moment for CL v. Non-CL is if the child still resists - do you coerce or not. e.g. if the child, against all attempts by the parent to compromise, etc. still does not want to get in the carseat -- do you stay home until child wants to go? or do you put child in carseat anyway?

I do not force the carseat or going. We create solutions which work for both of us. I don't force my way. This is not what I want our child to see modelled.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Originally Posted by ambdkf:
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity.

TripMom:

Quote:

I couldn't disagree more. For example, lavishing a child with toys and gifts has never in the history of the universe had the effect you suggest.

What exactly does that look like, not to treat a human being with generosity?

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Originally Posted by ambdkf:
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity.

TripMom:

I consider generosity and abundance from the universe in non-material things: freedom, autonomy, health, respect, intellect, ability, friendship, community, love, etc.

Pat











ITA!! That's the exact distinction.

Material things are very often a cover for the lack of what scubamama said. It's not real generosity. In fact, can be the polar opposite.

I know, my mother is a hyper-consumer...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
This type of suggestion always leaves me







My DC are apparently psychologically deft? At 19 months - heck, at 4 years - they do not follow the explanation you are suggesting. Maybe they don't have the patience or impulse control. Maybe they just don't want to listen. But detailed explanation of the "whys" in the world -- has ZERO effectiveness with the 19 month old - and more, but still limited effectiveness even at 4 years.

I guess my kids are hatched from an egg on this . . . . ????

You know, I don't remember if it was on this old thread or another old one, but I chimed in that my kid was apparently unable to have discussions and make decisions like this, too.....He would just stare at me like, "what the heck are you talking about, I don't care if you want/need to cook dinner, I want to stay outside forever" - this was when he was about 16 months or so. He is now 2-1/2 and just really starting to "get it" and be able to negotiate things with me; but even now it's me offering various suggestions of what we can do, and him picking one, and if he can't decide, then I decide...he doesn't come up with his own solutions yet...and many times he is just happier with less choices and me just letting him know what's gonna happen next. SO, I really, truthfully, honestly believe that MUCH of this has to do with a child's temperament as much as anything else. Since we as adults are all so different, I have to believe that children are all different too, and while discussing and negotiating things might work early on with some children, it didn't with my son. We'll have to see what happens with my daughter....I'll be interested to see if she's more receptive or less receptive to discussions and negotiations at a young age or not.

I also have realized that while I think it's great for people to be happy with situations in daily life, I also have recently come to the conclusion that I don't want daily events like going grocery shopping, or leaving the park, or not being able to wear a certain shirt because it's in the laundry, or "having" to sit in the car seat to be such a big deal to my kid that we have to negotiate solutions to make us all happy...and that yes, you can be upset that we have to leave the park, or you can't wear a certain shirt, or bummed that we have to go grocery shopping or whatever, but that in the grand scheme of things it's not really that big a deal and you can deal and get over it and move on and have a great day at whatever thing we "had to" go do, _because we have fun (and find fun) with each other no matter where we are or what we are doing. We just enjoy beign together._ I guess I subscribe to the "Life's too short to sweat the small stuff....and it's almost ALL small stuff." philosophy of life.

I also have to say that I personally believe that while a person might not "want" to do something _at a particular moment in time_, they might realize once they're into it that it's not so bad and it's not a big deal, and even if it still wasn't what they wanted to do, it wasn't so bad and even maybe "good" that they did it...BUT, I don't think that many children have that kind of foresight or ability to recognize this, and I believe that it's my job to help my children come to understand this...and I do it by talking to them and empathizing, but ultimately just getting on with things and making the best of the situation if we can't quickly come to an agreement.

I understand that when a child is routinely controlled and forced to do things they don't want to, and basically taught (by parents not ever asking or considering their opinions or feelings) that their desires don't matter, that it can make them resentful and dig their heels in and get into power struggles over everything...but I have found in my relationship with my son that because I DO invite his opinions and feelings to be expressed and valued, and DO let him make decisions about things, that when times come up that we "have to" do something he doesn't want to at that particular moment in time, that he is able to express his displeasure, I validate and accept it, offer alternatives as much as I can, and then we move on.

NOW, a HUGE disclaimer on this is that I'm talking about the daily things in life that we all do, you know, the grind - groceries, laundry, meals, cleaning, etc. - I am NOT talking about standing up for yourself when someone infringes on your safety (emotional or physical) or on something that could potentially impact you beyond a minor inconvenience. AND, I think it is possible in your guiding and teaching your child to help them learn the difference. I think it's entirely possible to raise a child to be laid back and easygoing on "small stuff", but willing to stand up for what's 'right' on "big stuff". That's how I am, and how I'm striving to raise my son.

Clearly, this is just my very humble opinion....so take it or leave it!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Only a few "non negotiables" are....
(my kid is in jr high)

Do homework. <--That is our biggest issue

Shower.

Call me when you get there. (friends, mall etc)

Get out of bed every morning with enough time to get ready, EAT breakfast, and make the bus on time. <--Our other big issue. This one drives me batty.

At this age, these are the only things I find myself TELLING her to do. SHe is improving on most of these issues, except homework. I still have to say "Did you do your homework?" Otherwise, she will do it at 10:00 p.m

The funny thing is, I don't yell, I don't punish. I let life punish her, then I ask her "Well, if you had done that project earlier, would it have turned out better?" Usually she wishes she had worked harder.

I would say that I expect all As & Bs on her report card...and I do. But, she LOVES LOVES LOVES her good grades, that I don't have to say anything.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I do not force the carseat or going. We create solutions which work for both of us. I don't force my way. This is not what I want our child to see modelled.

Pat

DS #1 needs to be picked up at preschool. DD#2 doesn't want to get in carseat to pick him up. No other adult home. Nobody else available to pick up DS #1. Whats the solution that works for everyone?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
My experience has been that our son has learned to use judgement by having an opportunity to do so, rather than being expected "to listen" and obey. He listens to his own mind, I don't expect him "to mind" mine. We work to find solutions which meet his patience level, impulse control and needs for safety.

Pat

That is what I'm saying . . . . I must be extremely unique in that my kids are seemingly unable to function at such an enlightened level. Funny? I'm around a lot of his playmates, classmates, neighbor kids the same age -- and he doesn't seem so different than they are . . . . but in comparison to the children of many posters on this board . . . . he seems positively psychologically delayed.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Originally Posted by ambdkf:
I think we learn about generosity by having a belief in the abundance of the universe. I can't imagine a child understanding generosity if they were not treated with generosity.

TripMom:

What exactly does that look like, not to treat a human being with generosity?

Pat

I'm more curious about the opposite. If the child wants every toy in the store, or every piece of candy at the market -- do they get it? Or does their good judgment tell them that too many toys are not necessary and too much candy isn't good for them? Not at my house . . . . .


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
OMG. My poor DS must be an alien -- when he was 3 he used to set up binary requests - and then when each request was given him, he'd reject it and demand the other - back and forth - back and forth . . . . .

Example of real life situation. In bathroom at DS favorite sushi restaurant because DS wanted to go there (very consensual so far). DS says "I want to go potty" Mom: "OK - lets go potty" DS: "No. I want to wash hands" Mom: "OK - lets wash hand", DS: angrier now "No. I want to go potty". Repeat this back and forth and each time DS getting more and more upset.

Honestly - you all have exemplary children that these sort of lose-lose situations never seemed to be foisted on any of you . . . . .

You aren't the only one. My almost 3 yo DD just started this. It is really starting to drive me nuts. I don't know what to do!







: I exsasperate myself trying to come to a point where she is satisfied and she just isn't.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
You know, I don't remember if it was on this old thread or another old one, but I chimed in that my kid was apparently unable to have discussions and make decisions like this, too.....He would just stare at me like, "what the heck are you talking about, I don't care if you want/need to cook dinner, I want to stay outside forever" - this was when he was about 16 months or so. He is now 2-1/2 and just really starting to "get it" and be able to negotiate things with me; but even now it's me offering various suggestions of what we can do, and him picking one, and if he can't decide, then I decide...he doesn't come up with his own solutions yet...and many times he is just happier with less choices and me just letting him know what's gonna happen next. SO, I really, truthfully, honestly believe that MUCH of this has to do with a child's temperament as much as anything else. Since we as adults are all so different, I have to believe that children are all different too, and while discussing and negotiating things might work early on with some children, it didn't with my son. We'll have to see what happens with my daughter....I'll be interested to see if she's more receptive or less receptive to discussions and negotiations at a young age or not.

I also have realized that while I think it's great for people to be happy with situations in daily life, I also have recently come to the conclusion that I don't want daily events like going grocery shopping, or leaving the park, or not being able to wear a certain shirt because it's in the laundry, or "having" to sit in the car seat to be such a big deal to my kid that we have to negotiate solutions to make us all happy...and that yes, you can be upset that we have to leave the park, or you can't wear a certain shirt, or bummed that we have to go grocery shopping or whatever, but that in the grand scheme of things it's not really that big a deal and you can deal and get over it and move on and have a great day at whatever thing we "had to" go do, _because we have fun (and find fun) with each other no matter where we are or what we are doing. We just enjoy beign together._ I guess I subscribe to the "Life's too short to sweat the small stuff....and it's almost ALL small stuff." philosophy of life.

I also have to say that I personally believe that while a person might not "want" to do something _at a particular moment in time_, they might realize once they're into it that it's not so bad and it's not a big deal, and even if it still wasn't what they wanted to do, it wasn't so bad and even maybe "good" that they did it...BUT, I don't think that many children have that kind of foresight or ability to recognize this, and I believe that it's my job to help my children come to understand this...and I do it by talking to them and empathizing, but ultimately just getting on with things and making the best of the situation if we can't quickly come to an agreement.

I understand that when a child is routinely controlled and forced to do things they don't want to, and basically taught (by parents not ever asking or considering their opinions or feelings) that their desires don't matter, that it can make them resentful and dig their heels in and get into power struggles over everything...but I have found in my relationship with my son that because I DO invite his opinions and feelings to be expressed and valued, and DO let him make decisions about things, that when times come up that we "have to" do something he doesn't want to at that particular moment in time, that he is able to express his displeasure, I validate and accept it, offer alternatives as much as I can, and then we move on.

NOW, a HUGE disclaimer on this is that I'm talking about the daily things in life that we all do, you know, the grind - groceries, laundry, meals, cleaning, etc. - I am NOT talking about standing up for yourself when someone infringes on your safety (emotional or physical) or on something that could potentially impact you beyond a minor inconvenience. AND, I think it is possible in your guiding and teaching your child to help them learn the difference. I think it's entirely possible to raise a child to be laid back and easygoing on "small stuff", but willing to stand up for what's 'right' on "big stuff". That's how I am, and how I'm striving to raise my son.

Clearly, this is just my very humble opinion....so take it or leave it!

I agree with what you have written! This is how I want to parent. Although I do think that consensual living provides GREAT tools, *for me* it does not seem desirable to apply them to every interaction. And, I recognize that this is a philosophical difference I have from CL proponents but IMO it is also about the personalities involved - some families will find it fairly easy and satisfactory to live completely consensually, and for others it is not a natural (or desirable) way to live ALL of the time.


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

This thread is cracking me up.

I remember when my kids were in public school and I'd have to get them to school and then commute 30 miles to work. I had to be there at a certain time. Getting out of bed, dressing, getting into the car, seatbelts. All not neg. If I would have had to go through this LONG dialog with each child every morning about everything they HAD to do they wouldn't have had to worry about a bed, clothes or a car seat cause I would have lost my job cause I was late everyday and they wouldn't have any of those things!!! I support many aspects of GD but some of this is ridiculous. I think it would be interesting to look at each parent on here and look at # of kids, age of kids, WOHM vs WAHM, single vs partners in parenting, and see how the responses vary according to the above. The bottom line is I and my child have 24 hours in every day. In every day I have shit to get done and they do to. I cannot spend 18 hours a day discussing, weighing out the issues, etc. In some things they have choices and some they don't. In some things I have choices and some things I don't. And we all have to deal with it.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
This thread is cracking me up.

I remember when my kids were in public school and I'd have to get them to school and then commute 30 miles to work. I had to be there at a certain time. Getting out of bed, dressing, getting into the car, seatbelts. All not neg. If I would have had to go through this LONG dialog with each child every morning about everything they HAD to do they wouldn't have had to worry about a bed, clothes or a car seat cause I would have lost my job cause I was late everyday and they wouldn't have any of those things!!! I support many aspects of GD but some of this is ridiculous. I think it would be interesting to look at each parent on here and look at # of kids, age of kids, WOHM vs WAHM, single vs partners in parenting, and see how the responses vary according to the above. The bottom line is I and my child have 24 hours in every day. In every day I have shit to get done and they do to. I cannot spend 18 hours a day discussing, weighing out the issues, etc. In some things they have choices and some they don't. In some things I have choices and some things I don't. And we all have to deal with it.

I totally agree. The kids are part of the family, and need to respect me the way I am respecting them....sometimes that means getting your tiny butt out of bed.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
This thread is cracking me up.
<snip>
I cannot spend 18 hours a day discussing, weighing out the issues, etc. In some things they have choices and some they don't. In some things I have choices and some things I don't. And we all have to deal with it.

While I am not a strictly consensual parent by any means, I think that the _*spirit and intent*_ of negotiation, mutual respect, and give and take are the key thing that people are trying to communicate and embrace here...as opposed to the "tough luck kid, the world sucks sometimes, deal with it" vibe present in this last part of your post. I think *this* is where the consensual mamas and consensual discussions have really helped me out, in my empathy and validation, and seeking alternatives (but not having to always be mutually happy, that's where I diverge). I used to be more in the "tough luck" crowd, but the mamas here have helped me realize that I don't have to be that way. Even though I don't always work to find agreeable solutions for my child(ren - I will with DD too, but she's only a month old right now), I always validate and accept DS's feelings and disagreements with me. I think that this has been helpful instead of giving the "oh well, suck it up" kind of response to him, because he sees that not only is it OK to be disappointed about things or not want to do them and that's OK to feel that way, but that I will help him work through the emotions and come out on the other side and we will just get through whatever we "have" to do and make the best of it.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Somehow it seems that many think Consensual Living means "negotiating every little thing right when that thing needs to happen"

It's like we don't interact with our kids UNTIL we are in a hurry, in a dangerous situation or in some other dire circumstance









I too have to work and had for the most of both of my kids life. I *was*/ *am* able to talk about "the necessities" (of getting ready fast, etc.,) well ahead of time, prepare ahead of time (as DC laying their clothes out at the same time I lay out mine) and it did not seem like that much of a strain at all...

Now if I had (and have on a few occasions







) waited till the last minute to all of a sudden "drop the bomb" on a child first thing in the morning in a form of "hurry up we have to go!", I would absolutely expect resentment and disagreement and stalling. Actually for quite a few day AFTER that too.

And yes, there are numerous situations that can be brought up "What would a CL parent do if...." The parent will just approach it from a different point of view - *concensual* point of view.

If Iook at situations in life - most of them are not worth NOT respecting, cosidering and negotiating as need be.

10 year from now neither I nor my child will remember whether or not I made dinner on time, but they WILL remember and learn that they have been disregarded (and in their mind might justify it too!)

ETA another point that has been brought up already. I find that my kids are MORE likely to cooperate even if on occasion they don't understand the reason behind me asking. Because they have been "conditioned" to trust that I do things for a reason and know that in a few minutes that reason will be explained to them and probably will make sense.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Somehow it seems that many think Consensual Living means "negotiating every little thing right when that thing needs to happen"

It's like we don't interact with our kids UNTIL we are in a hurry, in a dangerous situation or in some other dire circumstance









I too have to work and had for the most of both of my kids life. I *was*/ *am* able to talk about "the necessities" (of getting ready fast, etc.,) well ahead of time, prepare ahead of time (as DC laying their clothes out at the same time I lay out mine) and it did not seem like that much of a strain at all...

While I totally agree that preparation is key, I do have to say that some of my "preparatory" discussions with DS are still fruitless when it comes down to it - I'll talk to him beforehand about something, even remind him right before, and sometimes, when we get to the actual point, he doesn't remember, and when I remind him it's like it's the first time he's heard it.








Sometimes it does stick though, so in my case I think it's a combination of temperament and age....and I think a lot of this whole thing has to do with temperament and age, but that's just MHO.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
While I am not a strictly consensual parent by any means, I think that the _*spirit and intent*_ of negotiation, mutual respect, and give and take are the key thing that people are trying to communicate and embrace here...as opposed to the "tough luck kid, the world sucks sometimes, deal with it" vibe present in this last part of your post. I think *this* is where the consensual mamas and consensual discussions have really helped me out, in my empathy and validation, and seeking alternatives (but not having to always be mutually happy, that's where I diverge). I used to be more in the "tough luck" crowd, but the mamas here have helped me realize that I don't have to be that way. Even though I don't always work to find agreeable solutions for my child(ren - I will with DD too, but she's only a month old right now), I always validate and accept DS's feelings and disagreements with me. I think that this has been helpful instead of giving the "oh well, suck it up" kind of response to him, because he sees that not only is it OK to be disappointed about things or not want to do them and that's OK to feel that way, but that I will help him work through the emotions and come out on the other side and we will just get through whatever we "have" to do and make the best of it.

Again, The4ofUs, ITA.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
That is what I'm saying . . . . I must be extremely unique in that my kids are seemingly unable to function at such an enlightened level. Funny? I'm around a lot of his playmates, classmates, neighbor kids the same age -- and he doesn't seem so different than they are . . . . but in comparison to the children of many posters on this board . . . . he seems positively psychologically delayed.

You are making observations based upon your experience. I have experienced the controlling and authoritarian upbring that is espoused as the cultural norm. I didn't listen, nor obey as a chid, at least not unless I would get caught doing what I wanted to do. Hmmmm......we are living consensually with our son, and he does listen and trust my judgement.

What do think is the difference in our experiences?

Pat


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

I am not a "the world sucks" kinda person. I am just honest. If you look at what I posted it is nothing more than truthful. There are things that each person has to do through out the day. I totally disagree that if kids want to run naked in the yard its "ok". They may want to but its not appropriate. We live on a farm with people in and out of here everyday to pick up hay, drop off calves, pick up calves, etc. I'd love to be able to lay out in my swimsuit bottom only but I can't. We HAVE to wear clothes. This is just a small example of the overall reality. I am not going to explain to them everyday why the same reason I said no yesterday still applies. I have talked to them and said...this is the reason...I know its disappointing but that is the rule. On other things we do talk more in depth about issues. Just not every one. Iranim-I respect the fact in your household the laying out the clothes thing, talking ahead about getting moving, etc thing works. My kids under no circumstances and with any amount of preparation are morning people. They get plenty of sleep, clothes ready, backpacks, easy breakfast etc but it made no difference. Finally tough love has to play in. Get your little behinds dressed and get moving. That is more of my point. My oldest is 11 we no longer need to discuss these things. In 3 1/2 years he'll have a drivers permit. We'll have a whole new set of things to discuss, agree upon but ultimately its my job to make the final decision, so he needs to get used to it now.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I'm more curious about the opposite. If the child wants every toy in the store, or every piece of candy at the market -- do they get it? Or does their good judgment tell them that too many toys are not necessary and too much candy isn't good for them? Not at my house . . . . .

Hmmm....again, I can only share our experience. Our son is always provided the opportunity for us to find a way as a family to purchase the things that he feels are important for him to have. We consider toys learning tools. He has many toys. However, most all were purchased at consignment or discount stores. Some were purchased on the internet after extensive on-line shopping, or from e-bay. Also, our son is always telling me 'No mama, I don't want that. I have plenty of toys' when offered things that he isn't interested in.









Same with candy. Free access. No limitations, no gorging. He will leave cookies, cake, candy, etc. half eaten. Or, he will eat them before a meal. But, he self-regulates and consumes a healthy variety of foods.

What do you think is the difference in our experiences?

(Btw, I know hundreds of unschoolers who have similar experiences with very dissimilar children.)

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Mommaof3boz, the lifestyle that you describe sounds very stressful for all of you. We lived that way before having a child. We choose to live outside of the "fast lane" and enjoy our life so much more now. I hope that you find a path to a more peaceful life.









Pat


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
DS #1 needs to be picked up at preschool. DD#2 doesn't want to get in carseat to pick him up. No other adult home. Nobody else available to pick up DS #1. Whats the solution that works for everyone?

As a gd but non-cosnsensual parent I will say that this was one of my original examples, waaaaay back on page 1 of this thread. That was a time when I would (gently) force my dd into a car seat.

The difference I think with what I was doing and some less gd methods was I was not mad at my child for not wanting to go. I did not make them feel that they were wrong for not wanting to go. I did not expect them at such a young age (probably two years old or so) to put aside their own desires just because their sister realy needed to be picked up. And i was not going to be angry or unhappy with them because they were screaming and crying about it. This was not a bad thing for them to do. I understood they were upset (and let me say, this only happened a handful of times).

But we had to go, yes, like it or not. And what I do think my dd's learned from this was that they could be unhappy about something, and then with the simple passage of time and their own inner strength, they could MOVE ON and be happy again. That being upset and disapointed was not the end of happiness and joy.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
ETA another point that has been brought up already. I find that my kids are MORE likely to cooperate even if on occasion they don't understand the reason behind me asking. Because they have been "conditioned" to trust that I do things for a reason and know that in a few minutes that reason will be explained to them and probably will make sense.

OR - you just have easier kids?









I lay my sons clothes out evey night. I get up early with the kids - I spend time easing into the day, I allow 30 minutes for breakfast, I allow an HOUR TO GET DRESSED -- and each and every day I am running through a dialougue and discussion with DS#1 for at least an hour about getting dressed. We are always down to the wire - and a good amount of the time I have to announce "Well, you aren't dressed yet. I see you want to stay home with nanny today instead of go to school. Mommy has to go to work now." . . . .


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Pat-If you had closely read my posts it said WHEN my kids were in public school and WHEN I had to commute 30 miles. My kids have about the least stressful life you'd hope to see. Today, they woke up at 9 something, their dad who works eve shift took them to the river to fish. Then they watched the bulldozer working on our pond. Then their grandmother made them a huge homemade dinner. I picked them up, we took baths and played with our wooden trains, read and played with the hamster. The fact we live on a productive farm is the love of their lives.

Tripmom-mine must be as psychologically delayed as yours


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
You are making observations based upon your experience. I have experienced the controlling and authoritarian upbring that is espoused as the cultural norm. I didn't listen, nor obey as a chid, at least not unless I would get caught doing what I wanted to do. Hmmmm......we are living consensually with our son, and he does listen and trust my judgement.

What do think is the difference in our experiences?

Pat

I also was raised in an authoritarian home. I also rebelled and hid things from my parents - and didn't listen, until i was caught. Same deal.

I think raising your kid GD is doing him a great favor. But I have seen you post responses before - and please no offense - but your suggestions seem to imply this "Well if you only treated him with enough respect like any other human being - he would react rationally" -- stuff, that seems to work great with your one son (which is







) - but doesn't yield the same results for everyone. I tend to think that you probably have a very thoughtful son -- and it sounds like you don't have other kids? (could be wrong) -- so that right there resolves 99.9% of conflict in any given day for me.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
There are things that each person has to do through out the day.


I don't believe that there are things that each person *has to* to do through out the day inour family.

Quote:

I totally disagree that if kids want to run naked in the yard its "ok". They may want to but its not appropriate. We live on a farm with people in and out of here everyday to pick up hay, drop off calves, pick up calves, etc. I'd love to be able to lay out in my swimsuit bottom only but I can't. We HAVE to wear clothes. This is just a small example of the overall reality. I am not going to explain to them everyday why the same reason I said no yesterday still applies. I have talked to them and said...this is the reason...I know its disappointing but that is the rule. On other things we do talk more in depth about issues. Just not every one.
We have handled the desire to run naked differently. When we are home alone, ds prefers to be naked, or when he is out on the back deck during the day, or in the yard at night, ususally naked....when he is visible to others, he has underwear or shorts on. When company comes, I just ask him to put clothes on and he does. I ask him not to go to the door naked, and he doesn't. He prefers not to wear clothes in the car. During the day, we try for shirt or shorts. At night, we don't fuss about underwear only in the car. We don't have a "rule", we just discuss that others desire for him to have his privates covered when people are able to see him. There is no stuggle, probably because it makes sense to him.

Quote:

Iranim-I respect the fact in your household the laying out the clothes thing, talking ahead about getting moving, etc thing works. My kids under no circumstances and with any amount of preparation are morning people. They get plenty of sleep, clothes ready, backpacks, easy breakfast etc but it made no difference. Finally tough love has to play in. Get your little behinds dressed and get moving. That is more of my point.
How could your days start later for your night owls? Sometimes, we find that considering the struggle of staying the same is harder than juggling things to actually suit our needs. Altering the "reality" of the needs, changes the options and the "have tos". Dh and ds are also night owls.

Quote:

My oldest is 11 we no longer need to discuss these things. In 3 1/2 years he'll have a drivers permit. We'll have a whole new set of things to discuss, agree upon but ultimately its my job to make the final decision, so he needs to get used to it now.
When and how will he "get used to" ultimately it being his job to make the final decisions about his life?

Pat


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
As a gd but non-cosnsensual parent I will say that this was one of my original examples, waaaaay back on page 1 of this thread. That was a time when I would (gently) force my dd into a car seat.

The difference I think with what I was doing and some less gd methods was I was not mad at my child for not wanting to go. I did not make them feel that they were wrong for not wanting to go. I did not expect them at such a young age (probably two years old or so) to put aside their own desires just because their sister realy needed to be picked up. And i was not going to be angry or unhappy with them because they were screaming and crying about it. This was not a bad thing for them to do. I understood they were upset (and let me say, this only happened a handful of times).

But we had to go, yes, like it or not. And what I do think my dd's learned from this was that they could be unhappy about something, and then with the simple passage of time and their own inner strength, they could MOVE ON and be happy again. That being upset and disapointed was not the end of happiness and joy.









:

I totally agree - that is what I do in the scenario.

My inquiry is more to the CL approach - how can you be non-coercive in this situation? Its somewhat rhetorical - obviously you can't. So I am just illustrating a limit of the approach - of course if you only have 1 child - CL has fewer stressors. Similary if you don't WOH.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I also was raised in an authoritarian home. I also rebelled and hid things from my parents - and didn't listen, until i was caught. Same deal.

I think raising your kid GD is doing him a great favor. But I have seen you post responses before - and please no offense - but your suggestions seem to imply this "Well if you only treated him with enough respect like any other human being - he would react rationally" -- stuff, that seems to work great with your one son (which is







) - but doesn't yield the same results for everyone. I tend to think that you probably have a very thoughtful son -- and it sounds like you don't have other kids? (could be wrong) -- so that right there resolves 99.9% of conflict in any given day for me.

Yep, one child who knows to his core that he does NOT have to do anything he doesn't want to do. Negotiating to meet all of our needs in a normal life provides many opportunities to creatively discover mutually agreeable solutions. There are many families living consensually with 2, 3, 4 and more children. The ole' 'you only have one child', 'your child must be easy' argument doesn't fit other consensual families similar experience of chidren who are treated with enough respect like any other human being, do react rationally. Perhaps, it is our definition of rational? I believe it is totally rational for anyone to protest, struggle and dissent to being forced to do things that they don't want to do. Is that irrational to believe?

Pat


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Yep, one child who knows to his core that he does NOT have to do anything he doesn't want to do. Negotiating to meet all of our needs in a normal life provides many opportunities to creatively discover mutually agreeable solutions. There are many families living consensually with 2, 3, 4 and more children. The ole' 'you only have one child', 'your child must be easy' argument doesn't fit other consensual families similar experience of chidren who are treated with enough respect like any other human being, do react rationally. Perhaps, it is our definition of rational? I believe it is totally rational for anyone to protest, struggle and dissent to being forced to do things that they don't want to do. Is that irrational to believe?

Pat

I think it is rational to protest or dissent when you dont' want to do something which is why as I posted I have no resentment or anger torwards my kids when they protest having to do something they don't want.

But when there is more than one child's needs and wants at issue I think it is almost impossible to *always* be "consensual"

What is your consensual answer to a child who does not want to go pick up a sibling who MUST be picked up? (no one else to do it..no one to leave child with. and it must be done NOW)???

Obvioulsy if this were a regular problem consensual solutions might be worked out.

But let's say the child normally consents, then one day two minutes before the need to leave to pick up the child protests and does not want to consent? Discussion is tried but child is not in the mood. Does NOT want to go.
Solution??????????? Tripmom asked this and I saw no answer from any consensual mom.

In any event, my household is authoritative..not authoritarian. A mile of difference between the two. There is nothing to worry about in terms of being "caught"


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
When and how will he "get used to" ultimately it being his job to make the final decisions about his life?

Well, when did you? When do most children who grow up in non-consensual living households?

I have to say, it seems like they do. People do make poor decisions occasionally, but by and large, most people are able to grow up and take over, usually about the time that they are developmentally ready for it.

Seems to be working, across the world, pretty well.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I think non-negotiable is behavior that is harmful to others, or in the case of a young child, behavior that is harmful to him/herself or others. Obviously there is a certain amount of ambiguity there, but it is the standard I use. Beyond that, we have expectations of behavior, but not that I would call "non-negotiable." It is an interesting question though--there are many things that I would have thought, pre-parenting, were non-negotiable, that in fact are not if you can be a little bit flexible, creative, or open-minded.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
The difference I think with what I was doing and some less gd methods was I was not mad at my child for not wanting to go. I did not make them feel that they were wrong for not wanting to go. I did not expect them at such a young age (probably two years old or so) to put aside their own desires just because their sister realy needed to be picked up. *And i was not going to be angry or unhappy with them because they were screaming and crying about it. This was not a bad thing for them to do. I understood they were upset* (and let me say, this only happened a handful of times).

But we had to go, yes, like it or not. And what I do think my dd's learned from this was that they could be unhappy about something, and then with the simple passage of time and their own inner strength, they could MOVE ON and be happy again. That being upset and disapointed was not the end of happiness and joy.

Bolding my emphasis.

YES!!!!! This is my experience, and belief, too. Somehow, I'm not surprised I agree with you.














:


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Well, when did you? When do most children who grow up in non-consensual living households?

I have to say, it seems like they do. People do make poor decisions occasionally, *but by and large, most people are able to grow up and take over, usually about the time that they are developmentally ready for it.*

Seems to be working, across the world, pretty well.

Bolding my ephasis. ITA with this, too.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
DS #1 needs to be picked up at preschool. DD#2 doesn't want to get in carseat to pick him up. No other adult home. Nobody else available to pick up DS #1. Whats the solution that works for everyone?

What would happen if your car wouldn't start and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if DD#2 suddenly started vomiting and diarrhea and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you broke you right ankle and couldn't drive and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the fire dept. were at your home investigating some smell of smoke and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the cat suddenly had to go to the emergency vet and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if there were a major plumbing leak and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if a tree feel into the roof and rain was leaking in and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were in a car accident and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were stuck in a huge traffic jam and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if .........

What is the solution that works for everyone then?

I'd probably try one of those solutions in this situation!

Then I'd create another plan than picking up DS#1 with DD#2 if it happened several times in close proximity. I would create ways that it was agreeable and preferable (without threats) for DD#2 to come along. Perhaps, special foods in route, stopping for ice cream, or the park, or at a friends home afterwards. Bringing entertainment or engagement items along: books, music, videos, photos, toys, pets, friends. Discovering the objection: is it the carseat, riding in the car, waiting at the pick up straped in, etc? Perhaps, providing something for motion sickness, bright sun in the eyes, getting out at the destination to stretch and play. Perhaps, go early and play at the playground while waiting for DS#1. Perhaps, starting earlier so that we aren't
at meltdown-need-a-nap-I-can't-transition time and hope DD#2 falls asleep before we arrive, or bring a stroller to have some outside the car time taking a walk with mama. Bring a picnic and create a special event for just DD#2 and mama time. OR, ask a neighbor to watch DD#2, call dh to come home for this unusal event, or call a friend to pick up DS#1.

Patterns of conflict are messages that something isn't working for everyone
and we re-evaluate and change the system. If it happened everyday, I'd get a babysitter for DD#2, or get someone to pick up DS#1 at preschool, or find a different solution that doesn't involve DD#2 going or DS#1 staying at preschool. I don't see what is rocket science about this. It really isn't different than trying to manage with one vehicle: there are many options depending upon what we label "can not be controlled". I don't believe that we can *control* other people, unless they consent to act freely. Some people prefer to use force.

And yes, this is what many people learn (well before age 18/adulthood) and they continue to use the lessons of using force to "make people do what they want" as adults and parents, and as world leaders. One need look no further than the Middle East to see how well adults are able to 'get their way' without force.

HTH, Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Well, when did you? When do most children who grow up in non-consensual living households?

I have to say, it seems like they do. People do make poor decisions occasionally, but by and large, most people are able to grow up and take over, usually about the time that they are developmentally ready for it.

Seems to be working, across the world, pretty well.


I started taking responsibility for my own actions well before the age of 18. I choose to do things that I wanted to do without the safety net of my parent's awareness and support. I believe that this is a much more dangersous learning proposition than facilitating a person to get what they want in a manner that includes sharing a parent's experience.

It is precisely the adversarial relationship "No, you can NOT do that" which precludes the child asking for help before, during or after getting in over their head. I would much prefer that our son experiment with risky behavior (according to my Fears) WITH me as a resource than without because it IS "ultimately his job to make the final decisions about his life". Our child has experience with that already. And he thus has more experience using his judgement and relying on it, rather than relying on being told what to do. He makes healthy and safe decisions with my input welcomed and considered. I do not always agree with his choices. But in regards to developing his judgement, I'd rather be there to catch him (literally and figuratively) than thwart him. His desire remains to DO IT ANYWAY! And my experience is that he knows best for himself. I do not believe that I know best for him.

Pat


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

In response to the above scenarios of "what if"-many of the above would warrant a huge change in plan (i.e. smell of smoke, broken ankle, plumbing leak) and would require additional assistance. I would have already called my dh at work and he'd be on the way home. However, if my son simply didn't want to get in the car and go pick up his brother that's another story. Most people do not have the luxury of calling a sitter to come over then or daily and most dh's/so's cannot leave their work without a darn good reason. And I doubt most employers would agree "kid doesn't want to ride in the car/carseat to pick up his brother" is a need to leave work emergency. I understand making the ride comfortable (ie sun in eyes, car sickness, boring) but I disagree with stopping for ice cream, going to the park or a friends house. Is that not rewarding them? I am not going to reward one child for getting in a car and riding 5 minutes to pick up their brother from school. What about the brother?

Talking about the Middle East...I am sorry but in NO way does getting in a car when you don't want to and the Middle East conflicts deserve the same level of "control" and "using force".

I feel it is my job to prepare my child for "the real world". Right now I do encourage them to stand up for what is right, protest what is wrong, but realizing CL means every one doing a give a take. Put five people in one house and someone is going to have to give when they don't want to is part of it. It is going to be the same in their adult life.


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommaof3boz
There are things that each person has to do through out the day.
Posted by Pat
I don't believe that there are things that each person *has to* to do through out the day inour family.
Really??????????


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
What would happen if your car wouldn't start and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if DD#2 suddenly started vomiting and diarrhea and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you broke you right ankle and couldn't drive and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the fire dept. were at your home investigating some smell of smoke and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the cat suddenly had to go to the emergency vet and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if there were a major plumbing leak and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if a tree feel into the roof and rain was leaking in and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were in a car accident and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were stuck in a huge traffic jam and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if .........


Your scenarios imply that dc 2 would then get not to go. That this proves that I could find a solution that would not involve her going. Probably asking the teachers to stay late and take care of her til I could get there or even going really out of their way and bringing dc 1 home (even though it would be very hard on them if this occcured on an erev' Shabbat) You are right about that. But you are wrong by your implication that this would be a consensual solution because guess who else is out there? ( Besides the teachers for whom this is really really unfair, especially if it will interfere with their family's observance of Shabbat) Yep DC 1 who does NOT want to be left at preschool or taken home by her teachers.

Of course in an EMERGENCY I would tell dc 1 there was no choice. That yes she would have to do something she did not want to. But that does sometimes happen and it is far from the worst thing in the world.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

The basic difference that I see is that I do not believe that I can control other people any more than I can control a broken ankle, the weather, the traffic, etc. I do not choose to imply to our son that *he* can control other people to avoid something, or make something happen either. I prefer to model that I am empowered to control *myself* (autonomy); and I ASK for what I need of others, without resorting to making them do what I want when they don't want to agree.

Apparently, we believe differently.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Originally Posted by mommaof3boz:
There are things that each person has to do through out the day.

Posted by Pat:
I don't believe that there are things that each person *has to* to do throughout the day in our family.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
Really??????????

Yes, really: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=369564

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I feel it is my job to prepare my child for "the real world". Right now I do encourage them to stand up for what is right, protest what is wrong, but realizing CL means every one doing a give a take. Put five people in one house and someone is going to have to give when they don't want to is part of it. It is going to be the same in their adult life.
CL is not about sacrifice.

In our home someone does NOT "have to" give when they don't want to, no one makes them. No one needs to make anyone give, we do so freely, generously and with gratitude it is accepted. I believe the gratitude that we feel and share with each other for doing things for another is an important piece of our family dynamic. For instance, I needed to take the cat to the vet emergently, ds came along. We waited a long time for the consultation with the doctor. I really appreciated that ds was willing to wait with me. There was no compulsion, he earnestly wanted to help, although he also wanted to do other things. He gives. And we give, but without expectation or being made to do so.

Pat


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
What would happen if your car wouldn't start and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if DD#2 suddenly started vomiting and diarrhea and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you broke you right ankle and couldn't drive and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the fire dept. were at your home investigating some smell of smoke and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if the cat suddenly had to go to the emergency vet and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if there were a major plumbing leak and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if a tree feel into the roof and rain was leaking in and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were in a car accident and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if you were stuck in a huge traffic jam and DS#1 needs to be picked up at preschool?

What would happen if .........

What is the solution that works for everyone then?

I'd probably try one of those solutions in this situation!

Then, she would call the school and say "I have an emergency, and I will be late, I am sorry. BUT what if the emergency were "My two year old hasn't chosen to get in her carseat yet, and we are waiting for it to be mutually agreeable." Is that mutually agreeable to the school? Is it mutually agreeable to the child who wont be picked up when the other kids get picked up?

I am learning to like Gentle discipline, but, the only way to be mutually agreeable would be to have one child. There are no two kids in the world who would agree on the same things all the time.

It sounds like we want to treat the kids as adults with the same privelages adults have. BUT, as an adult we don't get to choose to pick up our kids at pre-school. We HAVE to do it, even if we were watching DR Phil, and we didn't want to miss it. We HAVE to go, even if the other child is napping, and we REALLLLY don't want to wake him or her.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
Then, she would call the school and say "I have an emergency, and I will be late, I am sorry. BUT what if the emergency were "My two year old hasn't chosen to get in her carseat yet, and we are waiting for it to be mutually agreeable." Is that mutually agreeable to the school? Is it mutually agreeable to the child who wont be picked up when the other kids get picked up?

I am learning to like Gentle discipline, but, the only way to be mutually agreeable would be to have one child. There are no two kids in the world who would agree on the same things all the time.

It sounds like we want to treat the kids as adults with the same privelages adults have. BUT, as an adult we don't get to choose to pick up our kids at pre-school. We HAVE to do it, even if we were watching DR Phil, and we didn't want to miss it. We HAVE to go, even if the other child is napping, and we REALLLLY don't want to wake him or her.

I totally agree with this. Working for mutually acceptable solutions is great but there are times when you won't agree and you have to take charge. I also don't see why something has to be a universally accepted thing in order to do it. I don't eat the same meal as everyone else every day so why would I tell my kid to go ahead and do something that is unsafe or ruins my peace of mind and the peace of mind of other people just because not everyone tells their child not to do that particular thing? Not everyone has the same buttons as I have so universal norms really have no sway over me.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*

I am learning to like Gentle discipline, but, the only way to be mutually agreeable would be to have one child. There are no two kids in the world who would agree on the same things all the time.

I have two children and we find mutually agreeable solutions everyday. We are happy to work together to find things that meet our needs.

As for "privilege", I believe being treated with respect is a "privilege" of being a human being.

Anna


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
I totally agree with this. Working for mutually acceptable solutions is great but there are times when you won't agree and you have to take charge.

Instead of "have to take charge", we choose to work together to find solutions which work for everyone.

Quote:

I also don't see why something has to be a universally accepted thing in order to do it. I don't eat the same meal as everyone else every day so why would I tell my kid to go ahead and do something that is unsafe or ruins my peace of mind and the peace of mind of other people just because not everyone tells their child not to do that particular thing? Not everyone has the same buttons as I have so universal norms really have no sway over me.
I honor other's freedoms the same as I like to have for myself, regardless of age. No one is "taking charge" over me. Nor I "taking charge" over someone else. We work to find solutions which honor our autonomy and our needs.

Pat


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:

The basic difference that I see is that I do not believe that I can control other people any more than I can control a broken ankle, the weather, the traffic, etc. I do not choose to imply to our son that *he* can control other people to avoid something, or make something happen either. I prefer to model that I am empowered to control *myself* (autonomy); and I ASK for what I need of others, without resorting to making them do what I want when they don't want to agree.

Apparently, we believe differently.
Apparently we do. And what happens when he's 11 and you ask him to unload the dishwasher and he says no. I explain what needs to be done to have a functioning house. He still says no I want to play my gameboy. I say 15 minutes then you have to unload the dishwasher. 15 mins is up and he still doesn't want to do the chore. Just let it go? Come on Pat you really can't honestly tell me you wouldn't get frustrated and tell him Yes you need to do it please put the gameboy away. Would you do it yourself? Would you continue to "discuss" why we need to do this? I'm sorry but it is obvious to a 11 yr WHY it needs done. They just don't want to be bothered about it sometimes.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
And what happens when he's 11 and you ask him to unload the dishwasher and he says no. I explain what needs to be done to have a functioning house. He still says no I want to play my gameboy. I say 15 minutes then you have to unload the dishwasher. 15 mins is up and he still doesn't want to do the chore. Just let it go? Come on Pat you really can't honestly tell me you wouldn't get frustrated and tell him Yes you need to do it please put the gameboy away. Would you do it yourself? Would you continue to "discuss" why we need to do this? I'm sorry but it is obvious to a 11 yr WHY it needs done. They just don't want to be bothered about it sometimes.

I'd probably turn on my DS and play with my child







Then we could both unload the dishwasher together later. Both things happen often in our home. We use lots of things as connecting time. I know it's more fun for me when we are working together and the same seems to hold true for them. Together we keep the house running smoothly.

Anna


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
Apparently we do. And what happens when he's 11 and you ask him to unload the dishwasher and he says no. I explain what needs to be done to have a functioning house. He still says no I want to play my gameboy. I say 15 minutes then you have to unload the dishwasher. 15 mins is up and he still doesn't want to do the chore. Just let it go? Come on Pat you really can't honestly tell me you wouldn't get frustrated and tell him Yes you need to do it please put the gameboy away. Would you do it yourself? Would you continue to "discuss" why we need to do this? I'm sorry but it is obvious to a 11 yr WHY it needs done. They just don't want to be bothered about it sometimes.

Here is a link about Chores: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=clean+slate We don't have "chores" in our home. We work together to take care of our home without rules.

Pat


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:

I'd probably turn on my DS and play with my child
What about the other two who have no interest in playing? They are all wanting to play cards. Does everyone put their lives, wants, needs on hold while ds & I play gb? We believe in getting work out of the way before play. It will take him 10 minutes to do the job. Meanwhile, ds2 and I will fold laundry while ds3 feeds his hamster. Now within 10 minutes three necessary jobs are done, we can play cards and gb. I guess that's the midwesterner in me. Work before play. I just can't get my head around the whole mentality otherwise.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
Work before play. I just can't get my head around the whole mentality otherwise.

We don't have dreaded tasks. It is all a part of the fabric of our life. It is just a different view. I wouldn't want to separate them out as "work" and "play" the way you are suggesting - it is all the joyful work of life.

Interestingly after posting my last post, I was in the kitchen cleaning up and my dd came in and asked what I was doing. I said I was cleaning the kitchen before lunch, she walked to the dishwasher and began unloading it







We chatted and finished cleaning and then moved on to looking a book she had created. Both were times of connection and joy. My other dd was playing by herself at that moment but later joined us. No big deal.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I'm more curious about the opposite. If the child wants every toy in the store, or every piece of candy at the market -- do they get it? Or does their good judgment tell them that too many toys are not necessary and too much candy isn't good for them? Not at my house . . . . .
Tripmom have you really encountered this or is it an exaggeration to make some point? My kids have expressed interest in a particular toy or game or piece of candy, but never every toy or every piece of candy.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
We believe in getting work out of the way before play.

Just an honest question - when you say "we", whom exactly do you mean? Because it sounds like your DS does not really "believe" in that...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

what is non-negotiable _for our family_:

1) vaccinations (yes, i know, this was mentioned in the OP ~ but FOR US, we consider this a life-saving issue. there have been outbreaks of things like mumps across the US recently because people are beginning to think this is negotiable or inconsequential. i believe in the efficacy of vaccines. i'll leave it at that.







)

2) holding hands while crossing the road, and then WALKING across (as in, not grabbing my hand and then trying to dash across the road without looking)

3) staying on the sidewalk while we are out walking (not running into the street for ANY reason)

4) ALWAYS using a carseat and seat belt while we're in a car and the car is going to be moving / driving somewhere

5) bedtime on school nights ~~ not really a life threatening issue but one that completely influences the next day's behaviour and emotional state... his sleep (or lack of) determines just about every aspect of how his day will go. so i make sure that he gets adequate rest during the night.

6) doing what mommy says and THEN asking why (because there are times when i will tell them to do something that could save their life, like getting back on the sidewalk when a truck is coming, or to stop rolling off of the coffee table, and they need to learn to just DO IT... and THEN they can ask questions about it and i will be more than happy to answer them. my ds very nearly fell backward off of the exam table at the dr's office a few days ago because he didn't want to listen to me when i told him to stop rolling RIGHT THEN.







)

... that's pretty much it.

i'm pretty strict.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i want to add ~

we have had dessert before dinner in the past...









(in response to the idea of "work before play") ~ we usually play for awhile before homework gets done after school. i think it's important for him to have some absolutely FREE play time, after being in school all day. he just needs some time to unwind, and be himself.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
Apparently we do. And what happens when he's 11 and you ask him to unload the dishwasher and he says no. I explain what needs to be done to have a functioning house. He still says no I want to play my gameboy. I say 15 minutes then you have to unload the dishwasher. 15 mins is up and he still doesn't want to do the chore. Just let it go? Come on Pat you really can't honestly tell me you wouldn't get frustrated and tell him Yes you need to do it please put the gameboy away. Would you do it yourself? Would you continue to "discuss" why we need to do this? I'm sorry but it is obvious to a 11 yr WHY it needs done. They just don't want to be bothered about it sometimes.

Interesting, here is what I a NON-consensual mom would do: After asking more than once, I would unload it myself.

I would then go to my dc and say, "I unloaded the dishwasher. It was your turn and I had to do it so I could get the plates and cups we needed for dinner. Next time I expect you to do it when I ask so that we all can eat on time."

And that is it. I have not "let it go." The demand and the expectation did not go anywhere. They remain ever present. If this was a contiuning problem, I would do some "problem solving." But if it were a very occassional thing I think keeping your expectations are all that is necessary.

This certainly works well with my three dd's who I would say are very coopeative 95 pecent of the time.


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

We meant my dh and I. We believe in work before play. We live on a 200 acre farm. We have cattle, horses, goats, pigs, you name it we got it. We bale hay. We raise dairy cattle prior to them moving on to the milking floors. We have full time outside the home jobs. We work opposite shifts so we can homeschool our children. We work opposite job shifts so my kids never set foot in daycare. Our children are involved in every aspect of our lives every minute. And if we didn't set priorities it wouldn't flow well. We have animals that have to get water in the AM and PM or they die. Same with the food. My sons LOVE all the outside stuff. But they have no desire to do the inside stuff if they can help it. I am trying to raise not only sons but fathers and husbands which they will be someday. Their wives will need their help someday. They need to learn responsibility. So I guess their "work" (feeding, watering, mowing, taking out trash, helping haul hay, unloading dishes, switching laundry loads, hanging out laundry), which is done along side a parent for most of it is more important than play AT TIMES. When its done they are free to run and play and explore (all over 200 acres) to their hearts content. But would I say the work is negio. NO.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I would think that if something were *truly* Non-negotiable, we could all agree on it....

However, I believe there *is a mutually agreeable alternative* available which can be found that respects the child's body space integrity instead. Perhaps, we could continue to seek those together instead of advocating the default to force, except perhaps when it is *truly* and universally necessary due to a life threatening event. When is that?

Pat

I thought about this thread a lot when it was originally active, and I've thought about it a lot again now as Pat has resurrected it. It's gotten big and circular enough that reading it again has made my head spin.

In light of all I've read, I've gone back and considered the original question again.

For me and my parenting approach, maybe instead of asking, "What is non-negotiable?" the more appropriate question is, "What things make a solution to a conflict not MUTUALLY agreeable?" In other words, "What solutions would be unacceptable for me and why?"

For example, when ds was much smaller, he went through a phase where he loved to heave toys at his friends' heads during playtime. While I was certainly willing to "negotiate" this -- find appropriate throwing situations, re-direct with other activities, etc -- there would never be a solution agreeable to BOTH of us which included causing pain to another child.

So, if I look at it like that -- where is the line that causes the negotiation to become NON-mutually agreeable -- I have come up with a list for our household.

For our family, I cannot imagine a mutually-agreed-upon solution to a conflict which would include:

--deliberately causing physical pain

--deliberately causing damage to valued property

--deliberately disregarding safety and health

--deliberately being unkind, disrespectful or cruel

So, when conflicts arise that require negotiation in my family, I will always try to reach a solution that is mutually agreeable (in all but those truly life-threatening situations that Pat mentions, of course).

But when it comes down to it, I won't allow the solution to include any of the above. And, if need be, I will use some sort of force or coersion to make sure that it doesn't.

To continue with my example above, there were lots of times that my ds would continue to try to throw toys at his playmates even after my repeated attempts at finding agreeable alternatives. When that happened, I had no qualms about bodily removing him -- often screaming his head off -- from the situation.

So for us, if he doesn't want to take a bath, no big deal. Not gonna matter in the slightest. But, if he doesn't want me to clean that nasty scrape he got falling next to the pig sty at the petting zoo, that's a different story. It needs to be cleaned or it could jeopardize his health. While I'll do my level best to prepare him, to get his agreement and understanding of WHY it needs to be done, in the end, I'll have to force the issue.

Boy, this has been really helpful to me in figuring out exactly what I feel and why I do what I do. Pat, you and I may parent differently, but I can't thank you enough for making me take a good hard look at myself. Thank you for asking the hard questions!

--Olive


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3boz*
We meant my dh and I. We believe in work before play. We live on a 200 acre farm. We have cattle, horses, goats, pigs, you name it we got it. We bale hay. We raise dairy cattle prior to them moving on to the milking floors. We have full time outside the home jobs. We work opposite shifts so we can homeschool our children. We work opposite job shifts so my kids never set foot in daycare. Our children are involved in every aspect of our lives every minute. And if we didn't set priorities it wouldn't flow well. We have animals that have to get water in the AM and PM or they die. Same with the food. My sons LOVE all the outside stuff. But they have no desire to do the inside stuff if they can help it. I am trying to raise not only sons but fathers and husbands which they will be someday. Their wives will need their help someday. They need to learn responsibility. So I guess their "work" (feeding, watering, mowing, taking out trash, helping haul hay, unloading dishes, switching laundry loads, hanging out laundry), which is done along side a parent for most of it is more important than play AT TIMES. When its done they are free to run and play and explore (all over 200 acres) to their hearts content. But would I say the work is negio. NO.

See, this is a perfect an example of a family for whom the paradigm of consensual living is not adequate.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

l_olive I found your post very thoughtful. There are many solutions I won't agree to as well, very similar to yours. I do think that force can be avoided alot of the time though. It isn't always easy though. Sometimes, for me, it only takes as much as waiting a minute and remembering that force can be avoided to open me up to finding out why the child is dissenting and work towards making it agreeable.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
That is what I'm saying . . . . I must be extremely unique in that my kids are seemingly unable to function at such an enlightened level. Funny? I'm around a lot of his playmates, classmates, neighbor kids the same age -- and he doesn't seem so different than they are . . . . but in comparison to the children of many posters on this board . . . . he seems positively psychologically delayed.

Nope. Mine too.

I could never have negotiated with my first (now 6yo) when he was 2 and 3. He just had no concept of if...then.... and it wasn't due to my coercion of him. He just didn't get it. You could say "first we get in the car to drive home, THEN we can have our lunch," over and over, and he'd be screaming about wanting LUNCH NOW LUNCH NOW (and the reason we couldn't have lunch NOW was that it was home, and he had to be in his carseat to get there).

I watched as "if.... then..." clicked for him, and it didnt' happen until WAY after some of the stories I read here. At that point, I could say things like "I know you don't like to take this medicine because it tastes bad, but it is going to chase away the germs that have made the infection in your chest." and he would *understand* the if-then, and the *reasoning* behind it. But he just didn't get those sorts of arguments as a toddler. He still has trouble with mathematical reasoning at 6yo. I think it's the way he's wired. He also got *very* stressed out by repeated attempts to reason with him or longwinded conversations about reasons. He'd shut down -- probably because processing them was difficult for him?

Little sister, on the other hand, is a lot more like some of the kids people post about. At <2yo, I could say "Well, we need to go change your poopies first, and then we can play trains. If we don't change your poopies, your butt will get sore." And she'd get it.

Every kid is different. Mine were approached with very similar outlooks, but had very different responses. I couldn't negotiate or rationlize with DS, and yes, it resulted in many more incidents that would be considered coersive or nonconsensual. We tried to structure our lives to avoid the worst of it, but like others who WOH, it wasn't always possible.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
I believe it's all in the intent - we all are challenged with something, be it single parenting, working outside of home, not being "financially stable", having multiple kids, etc., etc.,

I actually see that those challenges bring us closer together, and living consentually helps us all overcome those challenges.









:









I'm a single mom and I do my best to live consensually with ds. I'm not perfect, by any means, and being the sole source of income does make it more difficult, I think (it's been my experience, anyway - it became much more difficult once ds' dad and I split up).

In our house, my working is a non-negotiable. And because I'm in the beginning of a new career, working outside of the home is non-negotiable. Ds would prefer I didn't (he's said as much). It's not possible. And because I have to work, his going to school is a non-negotiable. What that meant for me, though, was finding a place for him that would approximate as closely as possible what he would experience at home. I've been able to do that, with his ongoing input. (For example, it was his choice to continue on at that school this year. He thought he might like to go to the public school where his neighborhood friends go. We talked about what a public school day looks like - both the positives and the negatives - and he chose to stay on where he is. ) It's worked out beautifully. We have the baseline non-negotiable, unfortunately, but we make choices within those parameters that turn them into positives.

It's always a struggle. But it's so much less a struggle, IMO, than it would be if our lives were about me making all of the decisions and him constantly resisting (which he would).


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I really don't get how this works, never directing or exerting authority in a parent-child relationship.

The only way I see it as possible is if the mother martyrs her own needs for the child's. Children do not have empathy and the same sense of responsibility we do. In the dishwasher example, I can't see it working to be "consensual" without giving in and just doing it.

And then the child learns that mama can be easily manipulated, if you don't do your chore mom will do it.

There is too much mama-as-martyr in this world, and I think it is not good for girl or boy children. And too much individualism, feeling that the child will be destroyed or damaged if their individuality is not regarded as paramount. What about a sense of collectivism? What about a sense of respect for the parent because they are the parent?

I don't see anything at all wrong with those concepts.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I really don't get how this works, never directing or exerting authority in a parent-child relationship.

The only way I see it as possible is if the mother martyrs her own needs for the child's. Children do not have empathy and the same sense of responsibility we do. In the dishwasher example, I can't see it working to be "consensual" without giving in and just doing it.

And then the child learns that mama can be easily manipulated, if you don't do your chore mom will do it.

There is too much mama-as-martyr in this world, and I think it is not good for girl or boy children. And too much individualism, feeling that the child will be destroyed or damaged if their individuality is not regarded as paramount. What about a sense of collectivism? What about a sense of respect for the parent because they are the parent?

I don't see anything at all wrong with those concepts.

Well, Ill try to explain my point of view the best I can. I don't see myself martyring myself for my child, though I do sometimes put her wants before my own temporarily due for several reasons. One, being that it is agreeable to me and it is a choice I made and accept and embrace sometimes. Realizing that while I see us as equal beings, I also accept that I have been in the world longer, I hopefully have more impulse control, empathy, patience, and am able to see the big picture more accurately. This in no way means though that I spend my days, or even part of them on a regular basis putting my needs and wants aside for hers at my own expense. I will admit the occasional bout of mama-martyr syndrome, but I think almost ALL loving parents experience bouts of this now and again. The key for us (me and dh), is that when we do feel those feelings they are temporary, fleeting, and usually because we are choosing in the moment to feel "woe is me, I suffer so" rather than seeking a mutually agreeable solution. I see that as part of our issues (the rare time it happens) rather than an issue of our daughter's.

I reject the notion that children are manipulative, specifically to how it relates to us in the adult world as understanding manipulation. I think that sometimes children are unable to see the big picture as accurately, or have unmet needs or wants that haven't been adressed, and can be clever in their attempts to meet their needs and wants which can sometimes mimic manipulation. We don't have chores, and won't have chores. Just as my husband and I don't have chores --- we do what we need/want/agreed upon doing to keep the household running smoothly. My husband doesn't have any sanctions imposed if he doesn't do something, as I don't, nor my daughter (when she grows). It would be easy to go into bitch mode, or martyr mode "I ALWAYS CLEAN UP YOU NEVER DO!!" but again, while I think those feelings are normal and valid, I think they are unproductive. I have a need that is not being met. I would address that need with my husband (or daughter, whoever) and work to find a solution that meets everyone's needs/wants. I would help my daughter the same way I help my husband and vice versa.

I am a huge fan of individualism and I don't agree with your statement. There is a difference (imo) between a strong sense of self and of being a selfish person who is only out for themselves and no one else. I think collectivism begins with having a strong sense of self, a healthy relationship with one's self, a strong sense of personal boundaries and beliefs, and with being comfortable in knowing I can protect those boundaries. I think the very seed of even desiring to work together to meet the needs of all is knowing that one's own needs are met, and feeling safe and secure in giving of yourself to help meet the needs of others because your own needs are met.

I think your last statement struck me the most:

Quote:

What about a sense of respect for the parent because they are the parent?
I don't expect respect because I brought my daughter into the world, I expect respect because I am a fellow human being, and because I show her respect. Furthermore, I don't expect her to show me any more respect than I show her, which is why we live this way. I wouldn't demand a sense of respect from my daughter because I am her parent any more than I would feel the need to respect a man because he is a man, or expect an african american to respect me because I am white. Some might say those are examples are *completely different* but that was the way of thinking in the not too distant past (and even to some people now, not me of course).

I hope those answered some questions on my perspective on some matters.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
l_olive I found your post very thoughtful. There are many solutions I won't agree to as well, very similar to yours. I do think that force can be avoided alot of the time though. It isn't always easy though. Sometimes, for me, it only takes as much as waiting a minute and remembering that force can be avoided to open me up to finding out why the child is dissenting and work towards making it agreeable.

Thanks for your kind words. It often takes a lot for me to post.

I agree with you completely that force can be (and should be) avoided most of the time. I should have included that in my post.

--Olive


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I reject the notion that children are manipulative, specifically to how it relates to us in the adult world as understanding manipulation.

I see where you are coming from as it relates to toddlers and young children, but I disagree that an 11 year old who doesn't want to do chores won't figure out that mama will do them if you wait long enough.

Quote:

I don't expect respect because I brought my daughter into the world, I expect respect because I am a fellow human being, and because I show her respect. Furthermore, I don't expect her to show me any more respect than I show her, which is why we live this way.
I don't expect my daughter's respect simply because I brought her into this world, but because I am her Mama, someone with significantly more life experience than she, the person who is charged to care for her and raise her safely into adulthood.

I have another example from my life this evening: my daughter was watching TV, and it was time to go to Value Village. She was not into it, and kept yelling, "I want my shows!" What to do about this within a model of consensual living? This kid cannot be negotiated into turning off the TV (well, she can be grudgingly convinced with promises of more TV later, but there are usually tears involved). She is a TV addict and would have it on from the time she wakes up til the time she falls asleep if she could. I always warn her, "one more show after this one." And she cries for two more, and when it's time to turn it off, she screams for another show no matter what we agreed upon.

I can't see how to be consensual about that.


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