# Let's talk limits



## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Ok, one last thread.

I think it's important to discuss/debate this topic since many of you have had questions about setting limits.

Unfortunately, I have seen many, many disparaging comments about those of us whom you perceive to be "against setting limits." And that's why I feel the need to clear some things up.

Let's start with the basic stance on limit-setting widely found in child development theory:

*From Karen DeBord, Ph.D.
Child Development Specialist*

Quote:

Toddling, exploring, and pounding may worry parents, but they are normal behaviors. When children touch, feel, look, mix, turn over, and throw, they are developing skills. Exploration is intellectually healthy and helps children test their independence. Although these behaviors create a struggle between child and parent, they should be expected and planned for.

Quote:

Independence is an emotion to be encouraged during the early preschool years. The alternative is shame and doubt.

Quote:

Children may resist limits if there is too much adult control and not enough room allowed for their choice. Discipline allows children to develop their own "inner voice," which will sensibly guide their behavior as they grow. Often adults must be careful that they, too, follow the rules they make for children. Consistency plays a major role in parenting.
*MODERATORS NOTE: post edited to comply with copyright rules. (100 words total from any source is allowed to be quoted) Please feel free to post links to this information.

Thanks.*


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I understand that you feel differently, but I believe that many children thrive with more explicit limits that are set by parents (at least in the early years) without negotiations and compromise. That's how I was raised, its what I needed as a child. That's how I raise my children, who I can see thrive this way.

However, please don't think that just because I reject your ideas on limits, I reject the idea that punishment is wrong. I don't believe in punishment, bribes, rewards etc... And my children are well behaved and our family life is fun. I don't get into power struggles with my kids.

My personal beliefs are most strongly articulated by s Anthony Wolf, a child psychologist, who is strongly against punishment, rewards bribes etc... yet strongly believes that it is the parent, and not the child, who must be in charge.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Maya - I'm not trying to convert anyone. I offered some quotations from different sources in an attempt to offer a balanced discussion on limits. You have provided a name. Could you offer more details, specifically on limit-setting? I can find only book reviews and an old discussion here, in which there is no discussion on limit-setting. (Edited to keep the discussion on limit-setting only).

I don't think anything in particular about you rejecting my theories on limits. Some posters had questions about why some other posters seem to be, as they perceive, against limit-setting. So I thought we could have a friendly debate - where nobody takes anything personally - on limit-setting. Period.

PS Robo-parent sounds awful to me!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
I understand that you feel differently, but I believe that many children thrive with more explicit limits that are set by parents (at least in the early years) without negotiations and compromise. That's how I was raised, its what I needed as a child. That's how I raise my children, who I can see thrive this way.

What do you mean by 'explicit limits' and 'thrive'?

Thanks!


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

Thanks ParisMaman, your quotes are very insightful. I am really struggling with discipline right now. Gonna go check out the link.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:

The way young humans spread their wings, however, is not always convenient to adults









Hit the nail on the head with that statement. I may just have to add that one to my sig line.

It's interesting that you started this thread. My SIL was down last wk, and made the comment that I don't seem to have any limits on dd. She went on to say, not that she[dd] needs any...S on the other hand [her dd] does need some. If I'm not 'on' her...







I answered, I believe in giving my children the freedom to being children.
She just kind of nodded, and ended the discussion there. I took it a little further (we both have dogs) and I said, you know when someone says, "Oh, if I ever let my dog offleash he/she would take right off". Well, if you give your puppy freedom, and give said puppy lots of off leash time from the get go, then that puppy turns into a dog who does not need to be tied up all the time, because being off leash, isn't such a big deal...she got that, and I think I *may* have given her food for thought.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Great article:

How Children Really React to Control

I am curious, actually, what kinds of limits we are talking about. I have to admit that I am unsure what some posters are even talking about when they talk about limit-setting.

Oh, and to be fair, I didn't really include any arguments from the limit-setting side. So I found this:

Quote:

Limit-setting teaches a valuable lesson for life: the world is full of yeses and nos. You decide what behavior you cannot allow and stick to that limit. This will be different for each family and each stage of development. Toddlers want someone to set limits. It makes them feel secure and loved, and helps them to understand boundaries. As a parent you have to ensure that the rules you set are simple, easy to understand, and consistent.
I hate the whole "life sucks, get used to it, kid" attitude. And why do I decide what limits we will have? I could be wrong. I could be have repressed issues about certain things and set irrational/arbitrary limits. What I don't like about the above is the assumption that the parent is infallible.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

i think "limits" is a very broad word and adds to uncertainty in what one is talking about. For instance I find it essential for me to set limits for my child, but what I'm calling limits are things like "we touch softly" - i.e. no hitting mommy. "We sit on the couch" -- i.e. no standing over the edge of the couch ready to crash into my window when mommy comes home. I find these kinds of limits essential for my safety, her safety and really for peace of mind in general. My daughter tests these limits and then finds peace in the idea that they are the same all the time. Maybe they'd be better called rules? But that IMO sounds really harsh.

On the other hand I know someone who wanted to set limits with their kiddo and to her that meant her toddler was not allowed in the kitchen when mom was there. She set up a baby gate so that her wee one wouldn't come it.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I'm really interested. I definitely think the theory of no limits, or very few limits, outside of safety issues would be great for both children and adults. I'm pondering how many unnecessary limits I place on the kids, and how the reality would be without many limitations.

I think I make "rules" to make my life easier and to develop predictable reactions for the kids, but in the long run it just might be more work for me.

ie: I just banned 2yo from the fridge because he keeps getting his milk cup out, a box of soy milk, and takes the lid off of his cup to fill it "way up". He spills it every single time, doesn't ask for help, and repeats the process every twenty minutes. Then he drinks so much milk he's not eating much food. And he stands with the fridge door open because he likes the cold.

I've been tying the fridge closed with a dishcloth and just letting him have a water cup between meals. But now that I've typed it all out it seems so contrary to my ideals, and counterproductive to his learning experience.

Hmmm you've got me thinking...


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## uberwench (Jul 25, 2003)

I grew up in a very TCS-like way, and consequently have always been uncomfortable with setting arbitrary limits with my ds. both I and he are much happier and relaxed when he is a "free range toddler". Here at home, his rules are not really any different than ours - not hurting people or cats, holding breakable objects carefully, being respectful of other people's things, carseat safety - a basic "we all live together here in this family and here are some things that make it work better and safer for all of us".

However, this is much more difficult to achieve in the world outside our home, where the limits are imposed by others or by the environment. For example, as much as I would love to be able to let him go exploring on his own in Target or the grocery store, this is just too unsafe around here. I try to compromise - we finish the errand, then i'll let him run while i follow. He doesn't pull things off of shelves - he may take one or two things off a low shelf - he looks like he's comparison shopping







.

or in a restaurant, same thing - too dangerous, with waitstaff and hot plates of food, etc. Again, i try to find some compromise - it's unrealistic to expect a 2.5 year old to sit perfectly still at a table and eat, when there's so much activity.

In some ways i think the limits are more on MYSELF - for example, if i'm in a bad mood and really don't want the folded laundry to be strewn all over the floor, it's up to ME to NOT fold it when ds is sitting right next to me with a glint in his eye. I give him some stuff from my closet that he CAN toss around the floor and I either fold later, or fold in another room. (Now that he's older and more verbal, i can explain that I like the clean clothes to stay clean and folded so i can put them away.).

Someone, somewhere (and I can't seem to find the quote again) wrote abuot thinking of your child as being a visiting scientist in your house - the house is his lab, and he's got all these experiments running simultaneously. Would you want to hinder a scientist at work? I feel it is my responsibility to make the "lab" as safe as possible, and the rules that do exist are the ones that make the lab useable by other members of the scientific community (me and dh).

Again - easy at home, but going out in the world will be a challenge - it was for me, but i also learned to set my own limits by watching how people interacted best.

Sorry for the ramble, but the question of rules and limits is often on my mind, and when dh and i talk about it when invariably fight (he was raised with LOTS of rules, most of which he repeatedly broke).


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## chrfath (Jun 5, 2003)

Thanks for all the links. I am always interested in how to "live" these parenting styles.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
Great article:

How Children Really React to Control

And why do I decide what limits we will have? I could be wrong. I could be have repressed issues about certain things and set irrational/arbitrary limits. What I don't like about the above is the assumption that the parent is infallible.


I don't think I am infallible. I just think that I am the best one to decide things for my children. I don't care if I'm am wrong. I know I am making the best decisions that I can and that is ennough.

I do think that there is an issue here that we have not discussed, which is that I think that some people are really born with a dislike for rules and limits, while others feel most secure and happy with rules in their lives, and the fact that they may seem arbitrary is not that big a deal.

I think that some children can have few rules in their lives and do wonderfully, seem happy and joyful, they self regulate. But others kids seem out of control without rules. These kids really just don't seem comfortable and they are always pushing and come off as "brats".

OTOH some kids real brustle against rules. If they have too many, they grow up hating them and resentful. Others (like me, my DH, and our kids) really like rules and feel that the world has order when they are put in place.

This is what I mean by my kids "thrive" with rules.

The rules include:

Going to bed at 8:00 on school nights
Not interupting mom or dad
Saying you are sorry when you have hurt someones feelings or person.
Saying you are sorry when something is your responsibility and that something has gone wrong (even if it is not your fault) (people who can't do this are the same jerks who tell people "its not my department")
Saying please and thank you
Eating (or not) what is placed in front of you (in other words, you dont' have to eat anything you don't want but no short order cooking either)
Picking your things up
Being polite to other people
Sitting down to meals at set times and remaining at the table with the family
Begining homework within one hour after getting home


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

This seems like such a huge topic. People define limits so differently -- are we talking about a bedtime or not running onto the freeway? And it also would seem to vary by age -- are we talking about not letting a 1 YO bang the hammer at the glass window or not letting the 6 YO try hammering a nail?

Is it really possible to not set limits, say for young children and safety reasons? What on earth does that look like? Most people think I have put very few limits on my kids, but I'm always saying "is this necessary" and coming up with "yes", mostly because the possibility for serious injury is huge OR because I want my children to treat people well (because it gets returned). So we have safety limits (though fewer than most people would be comfortable with, judging by other's reactions) and an expectation of "politeness" -- e.g. we always expect a request to contain "please". Is that a limit? Or is it teaching a child how to get the world on their side?

I find myself constantly second-guessing the whole area. Am I too lenient or too strict? Or am too strict in some areas and too lenient in others? So far, no one has gotten seriously hurt and most people think I have pretty cool kids. I figure this means I must be doing OK, but who knows? It seems like a constant balancing act with no way to know if you are right or not.


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## ariadne (Jul 16, 2003)

One of my good friends believes in not setting limits in order not to stifle her son's creativity. Before I had ds the only time this was a problem was when they visited my home and he ran around trying to destroy everything in sight. It would make me so nervous I wound up just wanting them to leave even though she is one of my best friends. Now that I have a child (ds is 1) she wants to get together for playdates but everytime we do her child (who is 2 1/2) hits, knocks down or otherwise harms my son. I don't know how to handle this. I also don't know what to say when her son comes over and starts doing things like jumping on my sofa. It makes me uncomfortable to discipline someone else's child, but she just lets him do it and it is not something that we intend to let ds do at our home or anyone else's for that matter so it sends conflicting messages to him. Any advice?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Good discussion.

I have "easy" kids, I know this b/c #1- I was a teacher







and #2- I've read a lot here







.

It is also easy for me to set limits on them, they don't put up a stink, so I often have no good reason to re-evaluate, yk? I could tell my dd, "You need to go to bed now" and she would, there is no argument really. As it turns out, regulating my kids sleep for them or their eating for them has never felt "right" to me, so I haven't really done it, save the rare time when I am feeling crabby and not quite myself.

The majority of our limits are safety related, but sometimes, it really is more about me controlling. For example- "Don't jump off of the couch." I keep thinking in my mind that if we had a plush carpet with a pad under it, that I would not mind the kids jumping off of the couch. I am afraid that with just a very thin carpet over the hardwood floors that someone is going to break a bone, I really am afraid of that. So, I made a rule and here I am saying it around 5 times a day to my almost 3 yo ds. Ridiculous. I could---save up some money and get that plush carpet with pad that I have been wanting anyway (I have always loved watching kids jump from couches and be kids), I could spot him when he does it. I could "let go" and realize that in the world of safety this is pretty darned small.

Now- for another limit to discuss-"No jumping on your bed", my ds's room is very small and no matter where I put the bed- it is up against a window, it is also on the second story and our windows are old glass. I do believe that him jumping on his bed is simply not safe. I could buy a window guard though, and probably should anyway







.

So, safety rules are one thing. Another "issue" of mine is being kind to others. I have a hard time with allowing my kids to simply interact, I feel a need to force sharing, kindness, etc. However, I am wondering- why? Am I afraid they'll never be kind if I don't enforce it? Does me forcing them to say thank you really make them thankful, or is it just making them be polite?

I have come to realize lately that the less limits I have, the more my children will grow in themselves, instead of into little people who do as I say, which is not what I want.

I am working to lessen the limits in my household, to let go, one by one, of arbitrary limits. I am questioning, why did I set that limit? Does it serve a realy purpose? Does it help my children grow into themselves?

I have a long way to go, and luckily as they get older, it is just naturally easier to let go







.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

As dd grows and teaches me, and as I read more and more, I find that we need fewer and fewer limits. I will not allow her to be hurtful, either to a living thing or property. Kindness and respect are standards. Beyond that, I try to back off.

I find that, as the link in PM's first post explains (the TCS link), if I simply explain my concerns to dd, she is willing to change her behavior. We compromise a LOT. And she is really, really good at it









Our challenges come when *I am feeling tired, hungry, stressed, etc. When dd is "off", I can deal with it easily. But when I am "off", I have a hard time offering the attention and energy that this parenting style demands. This remains a challenge for me, and leads to me yelling and making sudden limits much more than I like.

We are a work in progress....but I am convinced.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

PM, thank you so much for those snippets. I have copied them they are just so perfect at explaining my philosophy.

But, I too struggle with how to define "limits". In fact, I think I started a thread about this a while back. We try to place as few limits on DD as possible, and those we do are almost all about safety. But we do have limits.

Then again, I look at what maya43 lists as her limits and we don't do any of those. Mind you, our DD is only just 2 so it might not be applicable at her age. But I also find that many of those limits simply aren't necessary b/c we model that behaviour ourselves.

In fact, I have become a big believer in the "power of modelling". We have all seen a child let out a loud burp and then giggle uncontrollably b/c they saw Daddy doing the same thing. We have all heard things come out of our children's mouths that shock us b/c we then realize we say it all the time. And my daughter also very much loves to mimic behaviours: today she tried to floss her teeth with me, lol. I think we should tap into this amazing source of power, and heck it is easy: say please and thank you to each other and what do you know? Your child says please and thank you without having to be asked. My DD even says sorry and I swear I have never, ever asked her to say that. But *I* have said it to her and to DH and she picked up on that.

We don't have a set bedtime, frankly because when DD is tired she says "bedtime", lol. She likes going to sleep when she is tired. When she is at the age where she can put herself to bed, I may set an upper limit on how late she can stay up, but I'm hoping even that won't be necessary (it may be when she's older, I don't know, but I'm hoping she'll keep the same good bed habits she has now). As for taking responsibility, I'm hoping that by involving DD in "problem-solving", coming up with solutions to problems like "you leave your crayons on the floor and they get broken", and working up to when she's 10 and "you broke the window with that ball", that she will naturally learn this lesson without it having to be a "limit".

Finally, I was very interested in what maya43 said about personalities. As a child I postively HATED limits. I longed for independence from the time I could remember, moved out of the house as soon as I could, and to this day I bristle at arbitrary limits. It most definitely made me full of anger and frustration. Mabye that's why I lead a "limit-free home", although I believe I am doing the best thing for my DD this way, maybe it is alot about me too.







I simply can't relate to people who like limits, so I don't know how to answer for them, lol.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

I really appreciate this discussion, because my dd is 14 months, and this seems to be coming up for us in a big way.

Mostly, I am not sure what i think! It all makes sense to me. I agree with maya about the personalities. I think this is so true- I've seen it in my classroom from when I was a teacher and in all the people in my life. But then, when someone is older, its hard to know if its their personalities, or the result of how they were raised. Probably a little of both.

I am confused about the term 'limits' as well. I mean, is teaching respect and kindness a limit? if it is, I am all for it. Is teaching a child about using please and thank-you part of kindness? What about respect- getting in other people's belongings, etc...? When these details come up, what constitutes a limit or not begins to get really foggy.

But around the house, if i tell dd not to climb on the table is it because it is inconvenient for me to supervise her because i want to be finishing up the dishes, or because its really a safety issue? Probably the former; I could help her on the table and explore it, allow her to take care of that urge, and then she'll probably move on. A safety issue would be for her to try and do that on her own when she is not yet capable of doing so safely. And then i wonder, is she at a place developmentally where she can judge when she needs help or not? As much as I would love to be able to supervise all her explorations, we need to eat and function in the house, which means I have to tend to those things and can't be supervising her forays every second. Therefore, do I create a limit? And what about at other's homes? I forget who it was who posted about her friend's ds jumping all over her couch. That to me is not ok. I feel like to tell him not to do that (as a parent, not parent's friend) is not imposing limits, as much as teaching about respecting other people's space and wishes.

Sorry for the ramble, but this is where my brain goes in discussions like this and as i think about where we are going with our own dd. For the record my father was *extremely* strict with me. I dont' remember being spanked more than once or twice, but i was always grounded. For example, once I was grounded because i took a pencil off his desk without asking. not becuase it was a pencil, but because i took something that did not belong to me. As an adult, i am super nervous about "getting in trouble" and not doing things right. I hate that about myself. I dont' want my dd to be like that.

It seems like PM and maya are pretty solid in their approaches.. I'm glad to see there are others who are still figuring it out like me.


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## uberwench (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

I am confused about the term 'limits' as well. I mean, is teaching respect and kindness a limit? if it is, I am all for it. Is teaching a child about using please and thank-you part of kindness? What about respect- getting in other people's belongings, etc...? When these details come up, what constitutes a limit or not begins to get really foggy.
I find the term "limit" to be somewhat foggy myself. I've tried instead to think in terms of "social contract" - the things we all do (or try to do) to make things run smoother. I've found it helps with my ds to make it clear that it's not just HE that has these boundaries for behaviour, and that crossing the boundaries doesn't make you "bad" or "naughty" (ugh i hate that word...), but it CAN make it more difficult to get what you want, or put you in danger, or scare the heck out of your mama...


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

after I posted last night, I thought of a situation that we were in recently and wondered what others might think of it in light of this discussion on limits.

We recently visited some good friends who have a dd who is 21 mo. My dd is 14 mo. our friends are mostly AP and use, from what i can see, gentle discipline.

Their dd has begun "growling" and would growl at my dd. When I say growl., i mean kind of like a cross between a roar and a laugh that sounded pretty mean, if not for the big hyper grin on her face. Its actually pretty cute and hard not to growl with her. Except, it terrified my dd. She would start bawling everytime S (i'll use an initial for the 21 mo old) did this to her. Her mom would tell her to use a gentle voice because our dd was her friend, etc... But it didn't stop. She got such a reaction from my dd that it was too much to resist. Her mom always said something to her, but S pretty much did it anyway.

I'm a fairly easy going parent. I understand that developmentally this is where S is. And yet, by the end of the weekend (we were staying with them) I was pretty weary of it. My dd was so scared that she wanted to be held *constantly* which was frustrating for me- mostly becuase i know she wanted to play but didn't feel safe to.

I know another friend of their has stopped coming over because of this growling and becuase S bit him once.

So.... how would you handle that? What limits, or no limits do you put on that? I think its in the kindness and respect category, but a 21 mo old can't understand respect really, its such an abstract thing. So is kindness in a lot of ways. So, what do you do? I honestly don't know and i've been thinkign about this a lot, so I'd love anyone's take on this (especially those who have dealt with this!!)


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I simply can't relate to people who like limits, so I don't know how to answer for them, lol.

Either can I. The problem is, my little sister is one of them. :LOL Arbitrary limits drive me INSANE. She creates them for herself because it comforts her. She feels "safer" with limits and rules and schedules. I feel cornered.

Same parents, same household - completely different people.

I have no idea where my daughter falls on this spectrum. She doesn't self-regulate naturally, so my guess is that she's a chaos beastie like myself.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

hi! I usually just lurk and learn, but wanted to jump in here because this is something I've been struggling with as my kids grow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uberwench*
I find the term "limit" to be somewhat foggy myself. I've tried instead to think in terms of "social contract" - the things we all do (or try to do) to make things run smoother. I've found it helps with my ds to make it clear that it's not just HE that has these boundaries for behaviour, and that crossing the boundaries doesn't make you "bad" or "naughty" (ugh i hate that word...), but it CAN make it more difficult to get what you want, or put you in danger, or scare the heck out of your mama...

I totally agree with this. Right now I'm in a place where I think that being a parent is really about providing the guidance to our children that will help them be safe, healthy, and successful in their relationships with others as they grow. I think the bottom line for me is that it's my duty as the parent to do my best to guide my children and teach them the skills they will need to function well in life. So yes, I'm going to judge whether certain behaviors are healthy or safe or socially appropriate and teach my children accordingly (I may be wrong sometimes, but I'm making the best decisions I can with the information I have). That said, I don't think that all this means I have to have an inflexible list of House Rules that my children must abide by.

Some things we teach outright and present as rules (like don't run into the street or hold my hand or stay right next to me in the parking lot) because they are vital to safety. Others are limits that we build into the environment, such as keeping only foods we consider healthy in the house (most of the time, anyway) because it is important to us that our kids eat wholesome foods or babyproofing the house so even the youngest can explore freely. Some things are taught as we go along and become general expectations that evolve as our children develop, such as social interactions (first we might say to a young child, please ask/tell me in your regular voice; later we might discuss respect and how the way we say things or the words we choose can hurt others' feelings). Some things (like junk food, maybe) are sometimes negotiable. Other things (like running into the street, saying hurtful things, or hitting someone) are not negotiable.

But although all of these things need to be taught, it's my belief that a child does not need to be punished or even necessarily experience "natural" consequences when they make mistakes (though sometimes they do experience consequences, which can help them learn). I think that's where a lot of confusion about limits came in for me. I associated limits with consequences or forcing a child to comply, as I think a lot of people do. Now I think it's entirely appropriate for me to simply physically stop them if necessary (as with hitting or running to the street) and to explain to my children that we don't do x,y or z and why and that I expect them to (ask nicely, be gentle, etc.). I also teach my children by behaving in the ways I expect my children to behave so that I'm a good role model for them.

Okay that's my slightly disorganized attemp to convey my emerging philosophy of parenting







I'm really enjoying this discussion and am looking forward more of it.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

So-if your parents were too strict, you may be erring on the side of too soft, then your kids may grow up feeling there wasn't enough structure and go the other way.

For moms of more than two, it gets easier to see our children's unique temperments. Some kids need more structure, some less. Some parents parent better with clear rules, others parent best spontaniously. This is why I am pretty leary of parenting books. Think about a book that would tell you how to do your relationship with your spouse. Being a mom is a very personal relationship between two human beings. It is greatly influenced by the needs of the other people in the family as well. It seems to me parents need a great deal of support in how to find their own personal style of effective nurturance.

Maureen


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

thanks sledg (Did i get that right? cant' see your post)- what you had to say cleared up some things for me. I liked how you said that the same thing (limit) evolves as the child advances in social development, as well as several other things you mentioned, but I don't know how to go back and quote off a different page so- thanks for all of it (maybe you should post more often







)


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

newmainer; my youngest ds had a similar issue, only his was screaming. Yes, screaming. Just to hear his voice. not a screaming in anger thing or because he was upset, just a sound he enjoyed making. He earned the nickname "screamer" at the football field that Fall. I had a hard time handling it because I knew he was just expressing himself, and I'd take the approach at home when he did it,'Wow, that one was really loud,Rick..you should probably give your throat a rest a while, I'll bet it is tired after all that hard work." I don't know if thats a limit,persay..but when the behavior is particularly annoying to others..and gotta admit, sometimes the screaming got to me too,lol, you have to find a creative way to "limit set". Other than his screaming I have been very fortunate in not having to impose any limits on any of the kids other than the safety kind.

Parismama, you always give my brain food for thought, I thank you so much for that. So many of your posts allow me to take a look at my parenting at the stage that it is in and reflect and change what I decide needs to be changed. You are intelligent, sage in your advice, and gentle in your presentation of giving it. Your dd is a very lucky girl. I just wanted to tell you that.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
For moms of more than two, it gets easier to see our children's unique temperments. *Some kids need more structure, some less. Some parents parent better with clear rules, others parent best spontaniously.* This is why I am pretty leary of parenting books. Think about a book that would tell you how to do your relationship with your spouse. *Being a mom is a very personal relationship between two human beings.* It is greatly influenced by the needs of the other people in the family as well. It seems to me parents need a great deal of support in how to find their own personal style of effective nurturance.


















Well said, Maureen! It's a very personal journey for each of us and our children.

Discussions like this, sharing ideas and being open to new ideas, are extremely valuable to my growth as a parent, and so is the support and encouragement of other parents.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I like the idea of principles rather than rules or limits. There are important goals with small children--namely to keep them safe and healthy. I think I do better to focus on the principle of safety rather than the unyeilding rules that are sometimes constructed to carry it out (like you must always hold hands in the street).

Here's something I like from http://sandradodd.com/rules :

Quote:

A principle internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and right. People develop principles by living with people with principles and seeing the real benefits of such a life.
A rule externally compels you, through force, threat or punishment, to do the things someone else has deemed good or right. People follow or break rules.

Which is the hope most parents have for their kids? Do they hope their kids will comply with and follow rules, or do they hope their kids will live their lives making choices that are good and right?

Most people heard sometime, somewhere "we have to have rules" and they swallowed it because they were punished if they didn't, and so, here they are today, talking about rules without any thought to what rules really are.
I personally don't limit or control my child's food, sleep, toys, friends, etc. If I constantly tell him when he is tired or hungry or not, how will he ever learn to tell for himself? I think it's vital to learn to listen to one's inner voice. But, it's nearly impossible to develop that voice when there is a louder external voice always commanding.

And dependence on that external voice is scary to me. I think there is a real vulnerability for people who depend on that external voice always telling them when, where, and how. There might come an external voice that doesn't have the person's best interest in mind--and then what?

So, we seek to model good principles and make suggestions and offer help. He sleeps when he's tired, he eats when he's hungry, stops when he's full, and plays with what interests him. We remind him about sharing and curtail violence when it happens. We generally hold hands in the street, but sometimes he wants to hold my shirt or pants. And that fulfills the principle of safety for us, without creating a problem over some hard and fast rule.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Either can I. The problem is, my little sister is one of them. :LOL Arbitrary limits drive me INSANE. She creates them for herself because it comforts her.

But, they're not arbitrary to her--surely they have meaning to her or she wouldn't do them, right? And, it could be that the limits/rules that are out there in the world simply coincide with her's and not yours.

I think everyone can find their own "limits" or "discipline." Everyone "self-regulates" to some degree or another. Often there is an ungraceful period of trying to find one's comfort zone. I think that's why college kids can get so "out of control"--many of them are making their own choices about their daily lives for the first time EVER.

I'd rather have a person make small mistakes early on finding their comfort zone, than big life-altering mistakes in their 20s.


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

I struggle with this a great deal. I don't want my 'rules' to be abitrary. But *I* LIKE to know what rules to follow (and the rules are different in different situations with different people). I feel comfortable knowing that with mum and dad I don't swear, but with my best friend it's not an issue. I love to know that if I do _x_ then the outcome will be _y_ .

I also like to understand the reasoning behind a rule (and I do not mindlessly go along with stuff - I think about it, examine it, research it as necessary). But when I'm feeling overwhelmed and out of control, I like to have limits on the things that make me feel uncomfortable. DD doesn't like limits - she feels bossed around.

I'm in a state of flux. On the one hand I do think that as adults DH and I do have a responsibility to help our children learn about social mores and socially acceptable behaviour (as well as a responsibility to keep our children safe), on the other, our children are individuals and will learn best by being able to be scientists exploring behaviours and their outcomes.

My big issue is noise - when I'm exposed to a lot of noise I get overwhelmed and crabby and unreasonable. Yes, that's my issue, but is it fair to DD for me to let her make lots of noise and put up with a grumpy, sometimes mean mummy, when putting a limit to that noise (eg, only for short periods, or outside) avoids that outcome?

We explain our reasoning behind rules, and involve DD (and will involve DS as he gets older) in the development of any house rules (most of which apply to adults and children alike). Our parents think we are _far_ to lenient with our children. Sometimes we think we have too many rules.









Mmmm, more to ponder.


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## Claudette (Mar 1, 2004)

We have ok and not ok in our house... It's ok to do soooooo much stuff, but there are a few things that are not ok. It's not ok to hurt or torment others, it's not ok to open a new packet of cheese slices and feed them to the cat, it's not ok take other people's stuff without asking them first and getting their agreeance, those sorts of things...

I'm a big follower of the Continuum Concept, and have been mulling over a point from one of the pages on the site there, about not giving small children choices... This might sound contrary to all popular parenting techniques these days, but the theory goes that children expect their parents to know what is good and right, and so they don't expect their parents to be asking them what is good and right, and when we give our children inconsequential choices (red shirt, or blue shirt) we're just muddying the waters, adding more complexity to the child's life, when all the child wants is to get dressed so he can go and be with you during your day... So, the child isn't interested in getting dressed, so you give the child a universally acceptable choice (you don't care what colour shirt as long as a shirt is worn), and the child is left wondering, what is the importance of this choice, did I make the right choice, would my experience be different if I'd chosen the other???

Instead Leidloff claims that children will generally want to go with the expectation of the adult, who is their role model so if the adult says, before you go out you need a shirt with the full confidence that the child will want to protect himself from the sun, there is no need to muddy the issue by offering the child a choice about the shirt, just hand the kid a shirt and if the kid wants to argue the point about which shirt, assume the kid is just testing to be sure you know what your on about and he can trust your faith in your own judgement...

Choices are a industrialised world phenomenon which has children learning early that they have choice (which we're told is great), but it brings with the pressure of having to choose... Let's face it, these days a lot of our time is spent comparing stuff - is my life good compared to the people next door, which is the best car to buy (or sling, or cloth nappy), and all this CHOICE is designed to entice us to CONSUME, and while we're busy consuming we're not living (in the sense that it dulls our senses to the really important stuff, the well being of people around us, forming a community where people are support, etc.)...

I don't believe in, "Do it or else", but I'm also sceptical about making the apprentices into masters too early on, yk?


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Lurking...

But I want to say:

I found MsMoMpls very thought provoking
"Being a mom is a very personal relationship between two human beings. It is greatly influenced by the needs of the other people in the family as well. It seems to me parents need a great deal of support in how to find their own personal style of effective nurturance."

I have three children (four and under) and with each addition, the dynamic and needs of the family change. I find myself setting more "limits" these days when I need to consider the wants/needs/emotions of three children simultaneously.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
But, they're not arbitrary to her--surely they have meaning to her or she wouldn't do them, right? And, it could be that the limits/rules that are out there in the world simply coincide with her's and not yours.

Yes and no. I think much of what looks arbitrary to me isn't. On the other hand, she'll be the first to tell you she likes things settled, and that the limit itself may be arbitrary, but her *need* for one isn't. Does that make sense? For example, she's a new mom and on maternity leave. Needing time for herself, she sat down with her husband and scheduled a block of time each weekend that was hers. He's a reasonable guy, and she doesn't have to pin him down in order to get him to help, but she (and I think he) prefer to know that from x time to x time, this is what is going to happen. "x" itself is arbitrary.

I laugh about it because it is so alien to me, but I understand and respect that she and I are different. She on the other hand shakes her head and wonders how I can stand not planning everything in advance.

All of this blathering aside, I agree that the issue of limits is going to be based on both the child and the parents' personalities. A free spirit kind of child will buck against rules, while another child may feel safer for them. A parent be more or less comfortable with rules and limit setting. There is no one size fits all.


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Dd is another free range toddler (in a highly but not nearly completely baby proofed home), but we do have certain house rules because they make the house nicer for everyone. Food only in the kitchen or dining room, because Dd sometimes adopts food items such as potatoes as dolls, and I don't want them left to rot after they roll under the couch. I wish Dh would stick to this, because I really don't like popcorny fingerprints on the computer...

The other rule is how many books Dd can take into the bedroom at naptime, and that they are small paperback books. Because they end up in my face while she rolls around the bed, and I don't want a sharp corner in my eye, and becaue too many books on the floor creates a sliding pond at night, since I'm not necessarily great at cleaning them up after they come in.

She knows that if she throws something at someone, they can keep it.

Other than that, I aim to give her control over her life if safety or overall domestic harmony is not an issue. The food rule gets stretched for special family picnic parties in living room and bedroom. We have negotiated on the books, if she wants a big one, it has to stay in her bed (the one she begged for and never uses, that's right next to the big bed). Considering that, she went for a small one.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:



I like the idea of principles rather than rules or limits. There are important goals with small children--namely to keep them safe and healthy. I think I do better to focus on the principle of safety rather than the unyeilding rules that are sometimes constructed to carry it out (like you must always hold hands in the street).


I agree.

I see limit-setting as "No, you may not do that." "No, get away from that." "No, do this right now or else." "No, I will not change my mind about it." "Don't talk that!" For me, there is no choice in limit-setting. It's final.

But I have seen, as I read this thread, that it isn't black and white. I liked Sledg's comments.

We have always had very few limits.

My dd was a baby in a tiny, tiny attic apartment. I didn't impose limits and she didn't test. For example, I never re-directed her if she was heading for the computer cords. She always seemed to change direction herself. I never anticipated the worst, projecting my fears on her. So she couldn't respond to my fears by testing. Does that make sense? We had a dangerous stairwell in the building. I would get queesy every time, just looking down that stairwell. The bars on the rail were very widely spaced. I never gave dd the opportunity to get near; every time we left the house I had her secure before even opening the door. But a couple of times daddy let her toddle out there. I would freak! On him. But each time I went out there to gather her up she was sticking very close to the wall farthest from the stairwell. So I learned to trust that children have a good sense of danger when it hasn't been altered by the fear, facial expressions, projections, words of the parent.

I know many of you will say that this is my dd's personality. I'm not so sure.

We still don't have many limits.

Bedtime is 9, unless dd is very obviously not sleepy. In other words, nobody is forced to sleep (impossible). And she is not forced to stay in her bedroom. Because of this, she usually asks to go to bed by 9:15.

Requests must be made in an audible, clear voice. I simply can't understand it, if not. No other comment is made besides "I don't understand."

Unless I feel pressured by other people, pleases and thank yous come naturally when dd genuinely feels like saying it. She always does, except when distracted. Hellos and goodbyes are coming along nicely. We have always said these things to her, since she was born. We have never forcefully taken things from her hands. We ask for everything first. Dh and I always use these words between ourselves. This is where the power of modeling really works.

No hurting living things. This includes ants, spiders, mosquitoes. Since she doesn't see us doing those things, she doesn't seem to want to either. But we did have major problems with the cat when she was 2, and I didn't handle it very well.

Food at the table. Nobody in this house eats anywhere but at the table. There is no forcing because there is no resistance. It's been like this since she began to eat solids. Lately, though, she's been asking if a banana or cheese would fall on the floor if she at it in the music room. She's so careful that I have been allowing her on occasion to eat something like that in the music room.

Quote:



One of my good friends believes in not setting limits in order not to stifle her son's creativity.


Pure poppycockle and lazy parenting! If you have a son who "needs" to express creativity in that way, keep him away from other peoples' homes! Have playdates at a gym or a playground.

Quote:



In fact, I have become a big believer in the "power of modelling".


I'm also a huge believer in this. I've talked about it here several times.

Quote:



So.... how would you handle that? What limits, or no limits do you put on that? I think its in the kindness and respect category, but a 21 mo old can't understand respect really, its such an abstract thing.


I would have left.

A 21 month-old does understand respect if he/she has received it all along. I think the parents may be laughing at the growling. How does the girl get the message that it's an inappropriate social behavior if, in private, the parents act like it's cute and funny? I think there are a lot of lessons to teach about that growling (This may scare people. It's not great when you do it someone's face. It's annoying. It's for mirrors only.) that a 21 month-old would understand.

I would have removed my child from your child's surroundings. If my she kicked and screamed about it I would have taken her to sit her in front of a mirror, or I would have offered an alternative expression or game to play with your dd.

Quote:



But although all of these things need to be taught, it's my belief that a child does not need to be punished or even necessarily experience "natural" consequences when they make mistakes (though sometimes they do experience consequences, which can help them learn).


The other day I pushed my dd to the limit by asking her to wait for something longer than any 4 year-old should have to wait. In the end, she slapped me hard on the arm. I took her hand and removed her from the area of confrontation. In doing so, I accidentally stepped on her toe. I didn't realize it. She was crying. When we left the room, she got it out that I had stepped on her toe. I was pretty hurt and pissed that she had slapped like me that. I didn't want to console her, at all! But I rubbed her toe, kissed it and said, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to step on your toe." And kissed it a few more times. She stopped crying. I told her that she had hurt me when she slapped me. That she shouldn't slap me when she gets angry but that we should find a better way. I took her back to the previous room and let her do what she had been waiting to do. No punishment for slapping. No, "Now you can't play your game because you slapped me." I left the room saying I was going to go rub my hurt arm or something like that. She played her game for a few minutes, then came to me and said "I'm sorry me." And I accepted the apology. No nagging again, no more mention of the incident. The consequence was that she was removed the situation causing stress and mommy no longer wanted to be around her. The lesson was that even though I was very upset with her, I was still able to sympathize with her and soothe her pain.

One of the examples I read at the pro-limit-setting site was of a girl who continues to ask for things at the store. The father says, "You can look but not buy. If you ask again we'll leave" or something like that. So the guy continues to shop, placing this "no asking" limit on the dd. How cruel is that? Gee, if you don't want to hear anymore asking, just leave the store! Or do the same thing yourself! That is, don't buy anything for yourself either.

If dd and I go shopping and I don't have enough money, we agree beforehand that we're going to look not buy. I tell this to dd and she says, "Ok, maman, when I ask for something you just say, 'You can't have that. We don't have any money today.'" And guess what? I don't buy anything for myself either! But when we're out and everyone's buying things why shouldn't she be allowed to buy something, too? It's not at all fair otherwise.

***
I just spent the weekend at a beach resort. I live in a culture where the city folks (both Slavic and Kyrgyz) fiercely limit their children. Here are some examples:

A 12 year-old (12 year-old!) girl is swinging on a tiny swing made of pipes of wood - there is no possibility whatever of wrapping the swing over the crossbar as with our chain swings(remember swinging so high you thought you could do that?). Happy and proud, she cries, "Look daddy! Daddy, look!"

"You're going too fast! Get off that thing," yelled the dad.

A hyper mom is sitting on the beach watching her son (5 or 6) swim with his dad. She keeps yelling, at intervals of about 10 seconds, "Don't do that! Don't splash like that! Don't put your feet up like that! It's cold! Stop that! Get out right this minute! Don't swim like that! It's cold! Stop that! Get out! It's cold! Now!" The kid was doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, I assure you.

It's a constant barrage of "It's cold!" (I swear all Russians and ex-Soviets have major anxieties about cold floors, cold drinks, cold this, cold that - moms scream at their kids if, even for one second, they put a bare foot down on a bare floor); "You'll get dirty!"; "Sit still!"; "Don't run too fast; jump too high!"; "You'll get sweaty and get sick!" blah blah blah blah

Perhaps that's why I have a fairly negative view of limit-setting. But I would never go so far as to write in this forum, "those mothers who set limits! Yeah, I don't set limits because I don't want to bring up a bunch of angst-ridden, issue-laden adults who won't be able to live through five days without seeing a therapist! You know, the kind who end up selfish pigs, screaming at their employees everyday!"

So why must I read nearly every day in this forum, and outside of it, all these nasty comments about posters who are "against limits?"

PS Thanks Magnoliablue!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh, and yes, choices...I'm not much into choices for toddlers. I spent a great deal of effort, anxiety and time on choices. One day, it clicked. And I wished and wished that someone had told me earlier. Be matter-of-fact. Don't get angry, don't explain everything to the last detail. Do try to see if there is something behind a struggle. But don't force anything. If it's really getting to be a struggle to choose a t-shirt to go out, maybe you should re-organize your day and let go of something.

Now, yes. Dd is 4 and choices work very well.

But I'm not sure choices have much to do with limits.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:

For example, I never re-directed her if she was heading for the computer cords. She always seemed to change direction herself.
I hear where you're going here.
But I watched Samson go right to the cords, and furthermore, put them in his mouth.
HAVING said this. Stairs...
My sil was freaking cause he was going to the stairs, I just said, watch him...
He looked at the stairs, then turned to something else...
I tried that with the cords...didn't work....


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

OT: Dh has taken the day off because my 4 year old ds was up vomiting until 3:00 a.m. It's now 7:30 a.m. and I need time to adjust to the fact that I am awake. LOL. So I hope that I make sense.

PM, you gave some good examples and suggestions, but I don't think that I could apply some of them to my life now that I have three children four and under.

The example:
If dd and I go shopping and I don't have enough money, we agree beforehand that we're going to look not buy. I tell this to dd and she says, "Ok, maman, when I ask for something you just say, 'You can't have that. We don't have any money today.'" And guess what? I don't buy anything for myself either! But when we're out and everyone's buying things why shouldn't she be allowed to buy something, too? It's not at all fair otherwise.

My kids don't ask for things that often when I am out shopping, but if they do and I can't afford it that day, I can't leave and come back when I have more money. At this point, I will say that they can pick something out or help with purchasing a great deal of the time. A situation that comes to mind for me is when I go grocery shopping, my kids ask for Hotwheel cars on occasion. Yes, Hotwheels are on display at the grocery store. I tell them, "You asked very politley for the Hotwheels, but those cars are not in our budget. We are here for food for our house." They can ask as many times as they want, but my answer will still be the same. I don't punish them for asking. They can help me make other purchasing decisions while at the grocery store, but I am not budgeting Hotwheels into my grocery money.

You know what...I am not done with this and my thoughts are incomplete. My dh and I need to start our day. I am hoping to come out of my fog and return to this thread when I organize my thoughts.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh, but when grocery shopping her purchase is a bag of black bread croutons or a bottle of water. Sometimes it's even the pint of yogurt or the orange juice we were going to buy anyway.

I guess it really, really helps to have grocery stores that have groceries - and nothing else. Sheesh, those American grocery stores can be trying on a mother's nerves! We visited when dd was 18 mos, and every time we went to the store she wanted one of those stupid balloons they have in every single store! I remember ranting & raging out loud about how they shouldn't have all this crap in grocery stores!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I know many of you will say that this is my dd's personality. I'm not so sure.

I don't know you or your daughter, but my guess is that while both your parenting and her personality have a role in it, her personality is the bigger part. Its a just a guess, I'm not trying to tell you about your own life. I could very well be wrong.

I found this in an article on Kathy Dettwyler's site:

Quote:

Probably the ideal place to start for the poster of the initial question is the book by Jean Liedloff titled The Continuum Concept. Jean Liedloff is not a professional scholar or anthropologist, but she lived for more than two years with a South American Indian tribe and wrote this book about their child-rearing practices. She talks a lot about how children were designed to be carried all the time, nursed on demand, sleep with their parents and siblings at night, etc. The book does have a few weird parts -- for example, she talks about how the Indian mothers in South America didn't try to "protect" their children from dangers in the environment, yet the children never seemed to hurt themselves. So the kids are allowed to play with knives, crawl near the fire, near the edge of cliffs, etc. She says she never saw any of them get hurt. In contrast, in Mali, where children are also allowed to play with knives and crawl around everywhere (actually they don't crawl, they go from sitting to walking, but that's another post) I did see many children with cuts from razor blades and knives, and especially distressing to me were the many many serious burns from falling into the cooking fire, spills of hot porridge, touching the kerosene lanterns, falling into the drainage ditches alongside the road, etc.
I tend to trail after my baby as she crawls ands stands. I am very relaxed about what she does. I only intervene if necessary, and I let her get pretty close to danger before I act. I have grabbed her clothes right before she's tried to head face first down the stairs. She has an obsession with power cords. I take her on playground structures and she attempts to go down the slide head first. We call her "danger baby."

She is just like I was. Which is part of why I'm relaxed about it - I see her desire to explore the world as a positive thing, albeit a positive thing that I need to keep a sharp eye on.

I have a friend with 5 kids. One of them, she didn't ever need to gate the stairs. That is just the way he was.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Parismaman, I live in Prague and it's the same thing. I call it children's boot camp. Every mother screeching nonstop "Don't do this!" "Don't touch that!" "That's dirty!" "Aren't you cold - put on your sweater!" "Drink!" "Eat!" "Stop it!" "Move!" then slapping if they don't do what is demanded of them within 5 seconds or less. How are these children going to learn to find their own limits when somebody is constantly directing their every move?
anyway hope that isn't too OT, I just wanted to testify! I am reading this thread with much interest, but don't have much to add.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

: (lurking and learning....)


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

:


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Ditto on the lurking - great thread!

I don't think we have "limits" here aside from safety ones (and hurting others), but I am going to revisit this issue to make sure I am not setting any arbitrary limits.

It seems like the working definition for limits in this thread, at least, is "arbitrary limits" - limits that would stifle a child unnecessarily. I think there is a difference between having limits and teaching social/cultural norms. Children need to be taught these norms in order to function in a tribe or society (which is what I believe humans were designed to do), and therefore, I see nothing arbitrary about teaching social norms. Some examples of this to me are not harming others and being polite. I agree that not teaching such norms is lazy parenting and doubt it would go far in "not stifling creativity." If anything, parents who refuse to teach their child these norms are depriving their child of the ability to fit in to a society upon which they will ultimately depend for their own survival. (I use the term "fit in" VERY loosely! I'm talking peacefully co-exist.)

So, in my approach to limit setting, I take social norms out - I don't think asking my dd to kiss me instead of bite me is a limit - it's a social norm or expectation, one that she will need if she is ever to have friends! As for politeness - I'm with other posters on modeling - we have said _bless you, please, thank you, you're welcome, excuse me,_ and _sorry_ since dd was a babe. At 16 months, she is now saying _bless you, thank you,_ and _excuse me_ in their appropriate contexts (proud mama!) and has begun experimenting with _please, sorry,_ and _you're welcome_. Hooray for modeling!! I hope that we will not have to expend much energy reinforcing these social courtesies as she gets older.

Our current issue has been with eating things that aren't considered edible (except to DD) - chalk, dirt, sand, and... ants. DD is doing this for a reaction because I foolishly reacted when this began. I can't decide whether this is a safety issue or not. I had a thread about this a while ago. My biggest concern is a potential intestinal obstruction, maybe I should ask a doctor. My gut is telling me to ignore and it will stop, but I'm having a terrible time watching my precious dd swallow dirt and chalk. The worst is when she comes to me with a mouth full of black dirt wanting to nurse. I just can't do it.

ParisMaman, you have wonderful insight on this and other GD issues (i've read your posts before!). Could you help out and suggest your favorite books on child development and GD? I am currently reading Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline and I think it is going to be my GD bible, but I'm only 30 pages in. The MDC book list is a bit overwhelming and there are books on it that I don't agree with after browsing them. Anyway, would love to hear your recs.


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## uberwench (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

danger baby
:LOL we call ds that (well, now it's "danger boy")

I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit - very refreshing.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaE*
It seems like the working definition for limits in this thread, at least, is "arbitrary limits" - limits that would stifle a child unnecessarily. I think there is a difference between having limits and teaching social/cultural norms.

I agree. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think I tend to use the word "limits" to describe the whole process of teaching my kids about safety/health and social/cultural/family norms. It makes total sense to me to not set arbitrary limits with my kids. To me an arbitrary limit would be something like "don't get dirty", which is stressful, stifling, and just about impossible, or "you'll sit at the table until you eat all of your dinner" regardless of whether the child is hungry or not. There's enough to teach them about life without micromanaging every one of their behaviors and interactions. But I also think that some there are some limits that would seem arbitrary to one person, but not to another-each family has it's own culture and value system-and so it's not always black-and-white. My friend lets her kids wander from her in the store (not too far, but more than most moms in our area) because she's comfortable with that and willing to let them explore independently, but I keep mine right next to me most of the time because for me that's a serious safety issue (though it's never a struggle-they need only occasional reminders- because somehow we've just taught them that it's what we expect and they do it). I think the most important thing to me is being flexible, having an open mind, being willing to listen to my kids, to change my mind, to negotiate when it's appropriate. It's important to recognize when my limits are preventing my children from learning, stressing everyone out, or just plain not working or not worth the trouble.

I think that, at least in the U.S., the idea that you MUST set limits for your children and be very strict in enforcing those limits is very pervasive in the culture as a whole. It's hard to get over that. I was so confused when my first child started growing out of toddlerhood, because at the time I knew I should have rules, but I had no idea what they should be. I mean, I was teaching her about interacting with others, about being safe, being healthy but I was just so convinced I needed RULES and that those rules needed to be enforced by manufactured consequences. Making all sorts of rules and doling out consequences didn't feel right, but I was just convinced I needed to do it because it's like some kind of mantra or catchphrase in this culture -"kids need limits, kids want limits." It was only after a lot of reading about gentle discipline that I understood that what kids really need and want is for parents to make their expectations clear and to be good role models.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I think that, at least in the U.S., the idea that you MUST set limits for your children and be very strict in enforcing those limits is very pervasive in the culture as a whole. It's hard to get over that.

Totally! That idea is everywhere in our culture, and sadly, so many people allow our culture to blindly dictate what they do. They don't ever question whether it is best or not. Not questioning is the reason why people don't co-sleep. It's the reason why most women don't breastfeed for more than 6 months. It's the reason why people use time-out or, worse, spank. Cribs, CIO, and such are the norm and mainstream society likes to follow the norm and assumes that the norm must be the best way.

It's sad because I can't exactly fault a mom for falling into that trap. I have close friends who CIO. They aren't bad moms, but they have failed to question what they are doing and whether it is the best for their children. I think that's why mainstream parents need subtle messages to get them to start thinking about what they are doing and why. What they don't need is militant folk getting snotty, snarky, and high and mighty about why you shouldn't CIO or why you shouldn't use time-out. No one needs that. I get upset when I see that here (not in this thread, but I have seen it in others). But, I also admit I have to fight the urge myself not to get on a high horse and preach sometimes. I try to remind myself they just don't know another way because they haven't searched and they can't think outside the box, and, like me, they too are trying to make good decisions in raising their children.

As for arbitrary limits - yeah, I'm with you on the ridiculous ones like "don't get dirty" and the like. I also like what another poster said about a child's development being inconvenient for the parent. When DD wants to feed herself (looks more like splattering food everywhere than eating), I remind myself that the only way for her to learn is to do it and that the inconvenience to me is just something I have to get over. Messes - argh! - sometimes I have to grit my teeth and look the other way in the name of DDs learning. It's tough to do and I fail at times, but I think some people just can't do it at all. They would rather force feed than clean up the mess.

Those are my thoughts today. I look forward to more contributions - I love this thread!


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## Organique Gal (Jul 26, 2003)

This is a very fascinating discussion... I only read through the first page, but wanted to contribute my 3 cents. Lately, my 11.5 month old son has started climbing up on the couch and off again. I feel like it's important for him to be allowed to be on the couch so he can figure out the best way to get up and down on his own. It amazes me how smart he is sometimes, really. His latest "strategy" is to push the cushions off the couch and roll off (head first) into the pillows. Sometimes he tries to turn around, but mostly it's head first and a flip. And yes, sometimes he bumps his head, and cries for a short time, but I feel so strongly that this is all part of the learning process, and it would be a waste of time (and struggle) for me to constantly tell him no-no, and pull him away.

Well, the other day we were at my SIL's house, and her family room has a small hall from the door, and then two steps down into the room. I was letting Micah play on the stairs (remember, there's only TWO), and my in laws made me feel like I was an abusive mother for not blocking the stairs off! How else is he going to learn how to safely navigate if I never let him try it for himself????? It really ticked me off, and even though I kept telling them that I WANT him to be free to play on the stairs, my SIL went and got a gate and blocked it off. Now, this IS at her house, so I didn't feel comfortable making an issue of it, but was I wrong in letting him do this??? I don't think so! I ended up getting the whole "he's going to fall and break his neck" lecture like I'm an irresponsible and neglectful mother, and left feeling really upset and attacked.

Mind you, this is the same family that told my husband to call my son's pedicatrician, BEHIND MY BACK, to complain to the ped that I'm not feeding Micah solids yet. I've explained to them over and over that Micah is a late teether, has a terrible gag reflux, and just won't eat solids. When he's ready, he's ready, and until then, breastmilk will definitely be enough sustenance for him. Good grief, he's never sick, and he's growing like a weed, what more proof do you need?!! My SIL has a daughter who is 6 weeks younger than Micah, and has been eating solids since she was 4 months old, so she can't FATHOM how an 11 and a half month old wouldn't be able to eat solids, and actually thinks that I'm depriving him. When I found this out I was LIVID, and confronted the whole bunch of them and made my husband apologize to his mother and his sister for bringing them into an issue that should have been between him and ME, the mother... And, just like I said all along, in the last few days, he's actually been able to eat pureed veggies without gagging and throwing up.

I hear my little man waking from his nap now... gotta run!

April


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## laurajean (Nov 19, 2001)

Honestly, I do set limits with my ds (3 years old). And, other people's dc as well...I am a preschool teacher. I have no problem setting reasonable and appropriate limits. For example, my job is to keep my child safe, so he is not allowed to cross the street without me. For the most part, I focus my limit setting to situations where someone will get hurt - hitting, pushing, throwing toys/sand at another child/adult, kicking, biting are behaviors that I must try to prevent... in order to keep all the children safe.

Actually, the most effective way that I set limits is to watch for precipitating events. If Child A is creating a block building and I see Child B running toward the building - I intercept. So, in essence I am limiting Child B.

When ds was a baby, I made sure his environment was safe - so cords were not within his reach. I did this so he could have free reign of the house. My ds is fearless. He climbs 30 foot rock walls, jumps into pools, is very independent and confident. And, I try my best not to project fears onto him.

Issues not related to safety are basically not important to me: food, clothes, bedtime, bathtime etc. I do not worry about.

I do find it trying and perplexing when I see children at the playground being aggressive and their adult does nothing. I do not want my child to be their victim. Or, when a parent/child is leaving the playground with my ds' truck and when I run after them to retrieve it, I am informed by the adult, "I just did not have the heart to take it away from Child F."

So, I do think that appropriate limits based upon child's personality and family values need to be set. And, by setting these limits you are in essence socializing your child.

Just my perspective,
Laura


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

I think our own personalities coupled with our dc's personalities really control how we all view "limits".

Before I had my own dc, I had two nephews nearby to watch. One thrives on routine and limits. The other balks. The parents are not good at being consistent in their expectations, so now I watch in amazment as the older child, the one who wants order, tries to force limits, ie "parent" his younger sibling (who actually accepts it amazingly well!).

I dislike constrictive limits intensely. I try not to impose them on my children. I try to base most of my limit-setting on respect of others. Yelling, being rude, name-calling--those are all unacceptable behaviors, but I try to model them. And when I do yell, I always apologize. My 2-yr-old now does the same. She may lose it and pitch a fit over something, but invariably she will "check in" as soon as she is calm to make sure I'm not mad at her for her outburst. I work very hard not to react in a way that can be perceived as a punishment when my children act in a way that I find unacceptable (not that I'm always successful). I try to talk about it, explain why the behavior isn't ok. Then we move on.

The choice discussion is interesting. My older dd, who is now 5, doesn't do well with too many choices. She is easily overwhelmed and is usually fine with my making clothing choices for her (and when she does have her own desires I let her go with it). But my younger dd is the opposite. She needs me to let her make choices. And she needs to do, or at least try, most things on her own. My older dd wasn't that way. They are teaching me a lot about valuing and accepting others' needs.

I think I also react to my mom's "over-management" for lack of a better term. She micromanages, constantly hovering, suggesting, trying to guide behavior. Makes me nuts! She means well but my goodness, my children can tell me when they want to eat, drink, go to the potty, etc. If my children balk at putting on shoes to play outside, fine! If they get outside and are uncomfortable, they will come back and get their shoes! If they want to smear themselves with paint and dance around in the front yard, fine! It washes off! [/rant--deep breath]









Keep talking, ladies. I'm learning a lot and loving it. PM, thanks for continuing to come back to this thread. I really enjoy your posts; something about them really resonates with me.


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## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

Well...I have to say I can go both ways and usually do....I have one child who is naturally very cautious in dangerous situations, has a finely tuned inner voice and another that is SO THE OPPOSITE!!! Someone said (sorry, don't want to go back and find the quote) that she is one way and her sister is totally the other...have you asked your Mom what it was like to raise the two of you ...(your dad was very strict, grounded you for taking a pencil from his desk...)? I ask because I fell like I try so hard instill principles into the kids (DS 8 and ds 3) and any limits or consequences that get imposed we attempt to be natural consequences centered on certain principles we deemed to be important in our family...like honesty...if ds lies about where he is, he doesn't have as much freedom because I can't trust to know where he is...imo a safety issue...

The other thing I want to say is it is SO FRUSTRATING to hear how easy it is for some people to GD, not limit set and still have great kids who make good ddecisions and come out ok...I have a very spirited kid who runs AMUCK when limits aren't imposed and I HATE IT...I hate parenting like that. It doesn't make me feel good either!!! He does EVERYTHING WITHOUT thinking first...hence he runs into LOTS of natural consequences I don't even have to try to impose, he gets himself in over his head all by himself!!! And schedules...yes, he thrives on schedules...soo....for much for the rant and pity party...

I have one who NEEDS a schedule or everyone's life inthe house is in total chaos and one who is much less on schedule and thrives that way and they both have been like that since birth. the 8 y/o breastfed on his own self imposed Q 2 hour schedule then 3, then 4 (not 2 1/2 not 3 1/2, etc...you could set the clock by the kid!!) The other, totally opposite....they still are as far as schedules go...and limits....one responds well to requests and redirction (the schedule oriented one) and the other totally rebuffs arbitrary limits/consequences....

so any words of wisdom???? Because most of the time I am pulling my hair out!!!

I have to agree with Monkey's Mom ....mothering is a very personal issue between two people....now if I can get my kids to understand that instead of seeing the two different parenting styles as unfair!!!

Great discussion...hope it is helping my sanity!!

Susan


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Let me help with that sanity thing- the parents who are currently walking around patting themselves on the back, taking credit for their children's easy nature are the one's whose parenting hasn't been tested yet. Their day may come. Pride cometh before the fall. You, however are developing great parenting flexibility, instincts and staying power. And lots and lots of humility. Humility helps use see that our children have free will and some children need to make bad choices in order to prove that the choices are truly theirs to make. Hang in there- you're getting a great education.


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## Organique Gal (Jul 26, 2003)

When I was still single and childless I had a friend who started having kids at age 16, and got married soon thereafter to the father of her child. I always admired her parenting style and took her wisdom to heart and am using the same strategy. She totally packed up everything in her house (including pictures) that meant anything to her, and made her house completely child friendly. She eliminated every possible potential no-no, and told me that kids get told no way too much anyways, and as many no-nos that could be eliminated from their life, the better, and when her kids were old enough to respect things, she'd put them back, but meanwhile she was content living in a stripped down environment if it meant have less things to say no to. She raised amazingly well behaved, loveable, kind children. Not perfect, but wonderful kids. I am taking the same tactic with my son, and he's SUCH a happy boy so far... there are a few things that I haven't been able to child proof (vertical patio blinds), but at 11 months, he's already learned to leave them alone, cause there are so many other things that he's free to explore and enjoy... I figure he'll grow up soon enough, and meanwhile having my "pretties" around isn't going to make me any happier in the long run, but having a happy child (as opposed to a frustrated one) will.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Is that directed at me, MsMoMpls? If so, I will gladly clarify a few things for you.

Quote:

I have a very spirited kid who runs AMUCK when limits aren't imposed and I HATE IT
Maybe you can think of it as your boy imposing limits on himself - exactly what discipline is all about!









Quote:

I found this in an article on Kathy Dettwyler's site
On indigenous cultures:
Perhaps that's where I get confused about my dd and the "personality or not" issue (and I wrote, "I am not sure," BTW). On a very regular basis I see 1 year-olds here, in the country and sometimes here in the city, doing things that would make most of you gasp. And I mean really gasp in horror. And it makes me wonder how much we are limiting babes that could otherwise safely do things we could never imagine as safe.

I mean, here in the city I see 1 year-olds climbing up diagonally-positioned jungle gyms bars with such huge gaps in between them it makes me feel queezy! And at the top it's over 6' tall! Yet, they do it. And I have never seen one baby fall. I can barely stand to watch! And I would never be able to sit back and watch my 4 year-old do it!

Quote:

As for arbitrary limits - yeah, I'm with you on the ridiculous ones like "don't get dirty" and the like.
It's not just the "don't get dirty" limits, which I'm not even sure are arbitrary but just plain silly. Arbitrary means based on personal whim or random choice. In my mind, an arbitrary limit is deciding on a certain day, because the parent is in a bad mood or because he or she has decided the child is spoiled, that the child can't have an ice cream or eat a bag of popcorn or watch an extra TV program, etc. There is no sound reason behind the decision. It's about how the parent feels that day, that moment. Arbitrary limits are based on a parent's feeling of insecurity about an issue.

The child-stifling probably doesn't come so much from setting arbitrary (random/whimsical) limits as it does from robot-parenting: handing down culturally-specific rules/limits from generation to generation without ever questioning the validity of those demands (Don't get dirty - Why? Does it really matter?; Don't walk barefoot on a bare floor - Why? Is it true that if child walks one minute on a cold floor his immune system will weaken?, etc.).


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

And many thanks to Fianna and MamaE for your kind words.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

OK, so I have sort of a provacative question. I see here a really interesting discussion about not setting arbitrary or non-sensical limits on children. I cannot reconcile this with other discussions which seem to say "I never let my kids eat sugar, junk food offered by others" or whatever (these are just examples). Or sleepovers or play dates (in other threads). To me, these seem like big-time limits set by the parents and not by the kids. IMO these are arbitrary limits. Am I alone in seeing the dicotamy here? Or is this just a case of different threads populated by different people?

For me, I allow jumping on the couch (because its not important to me and it seems safe in my home) AND eating the occassional real junk food (e.g. candy bars). How about others?


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Yes, I agree with you.

I think many posters here see those as safety issues. There is scientific data on the dangers of eating too much sugar, on watching too much television, etc. So I'm not sure those are limits based on personal whim.

The playdate thing I'm not sure about.

Yes, my dd had a bite of a Snickers bar the other day. Sometimes she eats chips and cookies with hydrogenated oils. But, no, the stuff is not available in this house.

Is making things unavailable setting a limit? Probably. Though I'm not sure the child experiences the same amount of frustration.


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## redheadmama (Nov 21, 2001)

This is such an interesting thread...I've been lurking for a while but thought I'd join in. It seems there are a lot of different definitions floating about with regard to the word 'limit' and what it implies. There's the safety issue, the 'manners' issue, the socialization issue, the health issue, the controlling parent vs the permissive parent issue, the need for rules/schedules vs the child who seems to be able to function without. Those are just a few of the topics with regard to limit-setting being put forth here.

All that, and the fact that there are so many different personalities that children come with. Some need more input from parents than others. Those of you with more than one child will certainly have noticed this. Add to this the fact that we moms have days when we are less able to let our children experience the natural consequences of their behaviour. I'm not referring to safety issues here, but more like "Put on your coat or you'll get cold." (BTW, Parismaman, there are far too many of those parent types here in Britain that you find where you are..."Get off that wall! You'll fall and break your neck! Don't swing so high, you'll fall off!" The child is deaf to such parental blathering and does it anyway without any injuries, and mom's credibility plummets so why should her sage advice be taken seriously in the future? But I digress...)

Maybe if we could more clearly define what we mean by 'limits', it would be easier to figure out what type of action vs non-interference we would like to implement in our quest for Gentle Discipline.

Also, the word 'arbitrary' when it comes to setting limits is a bit vague... When I limit my child from rolling down the grassy slope one day but not the next, it may appear arbitrary, but for me it's not. Today I have way too much laundry and it's not 'convenient' for me that ds adds to it. I suppose the word convenient (or perhaps tolerable) with regard to the parent is what it boils down to because somedays we are able to tolerate our children's behaviour and other days we simply aren't. When we try to always act the same way towards our child as well as siblings who require different levels of 'interference' , (ie., to always be consistent with regard to OUR behaviour) we run into problems because we human beings aren't naturally that way.

I think it's important to clarify the word 'limit' in order to define a standard of behaviour not only for our children, but for ourselves as well. We're getting lots of practice now...it's one thing to set limits for a toddler...and another thing entirely to do so for a teenager! I notice that most of the people responding here have very young children. It would be interesting to hear from some parents of pre-teens/teenagers as well!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Mostly lurking here, but I also want to remark that my dd (5yo) resembles PM's in many ways, except that she is a "run amok" type, a leo made out of fire who will not accept anything without what she considers a compelling reason. Still, she adheres to what we don't call limits but 'family rules' ~ i.e. things we generally do in our house but not always, things that are meant to make everybody in our house (grownups, children and cats) feel respected and free. I think that saying that one's own child wouldn't respond as well as PM's obviously very intelligent and thoughtful daughter is a bit of a copout. My dd isn't as thoughtful as PM's daughter I think, and definitely not as considerate by nature, but she is a lovely though not always "wellbehaved" child.

My dd has never adhered to a bed time, but she does sleep. She gets angry when she can't have everything she wants in a store, but she does accept it and is usually also happy with a bottle of juice.

Also, I really think there's a difference between setting limits and making choices. If I don't buy something, it's a choice. If we're in teh store and dd wants to buy something and I argue with her till I get my way (







) it's setting limits. If dd wants to buy chocolate and I don't, and then we discuss any food rules our house might have resulting in us either buying a bit of chocolate or something else, it would be a glorious tcs moment


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm not even sure how to respond to that, Simone. Part of me wants to say, "This was not supposed to be about my child!" I mean I can reason with her, yes. She is capable of coming up with her own solutions to things, "I have a good idea!" But she's still a 4 year-old. And she has tested me. And I have thought I would lose my mind. And you can search my post history to find stories of challenges.

Another part of me wants to just







you for all the beautiful things you said about my dd!

And the part about testing me brings me back to the post I can get out of my mind today:

Quote:

one's whose parenting hasn't been tested yet. Their day may come. Pride cometh before the fall.
Is it possible that, yes, some of us have been tested but perhaps we came out of it intact and better for it? And that perhaps we like to share our new ideas with the mothers and fathers here who ask for help? I don't think any of it has to do with pride. People ask for help and some feel in a fairly good position to give it because some have spent way too much time thinking about all of it - and experiencing the various problems.

I have always been inspired by Dar and Barbara, who have older children. They are always so positive. Do I see it as bragging or pride? No. I like to come here not to brag but to tell the naysayers that the practice of GD can and does result in a beautiful, joyful, respectful (when needed) child and adult.

You write as though all children inevitably fall into an adversarial relationship with the parent. I don't share that opinion - and as a Buddhist I find it difficult to process that kind of doom & gloom.

But back to limits.

Quote:

I limit my child from rolling down the grassy slope one day but not the next, it may appear arbitrary, but for me it's not. Today I have way too much laundry and it's not 'convenient' for me that ds adds to it.
To me, it still looks arbitrary. Perhaps there has been too much negativity surrounding the word? It's still a personal decision for you because that day you've decided that you don't want to add to the laundry. Perhaps another day you'll think harder about it and decide it won't kill you to add another pair of shorts or pants to the load. I'm not trying to criticize you, by any means.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Dang it ate my long reply

PM I didn't mean to use you or your dd as example, more as a general thing, exactly bc it's NOT about you or her, but about how to treat other people. From what I've read throughout hte years, it seems (and that's all it is ~ it SEEMS) that your dd is in many respects "easier to handle" by you than mine is by me, but that's no excuse for me to treat her less than respectfully and gently.

Quite the opposite ~ I know that most of our "adversarial" episodes have as much to do with MY weaknesses (impatience often being my main one, but not looking forward to clean up the potential mess being another example) as with whatever her traits might be. So I meant that it's not the child but the parents who makes limit setting harder

can't t7 ype now willem wants


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Yes, yes, yes! I love the point being made here that regardless of the child's personality, the parent can generally work harder to be more respectful of the child's ability to decide what they want, what they want to do, etc..

For example, my daughter has never minded having her hair washed, so she gets it washed all the time. My son at around 2 decided he didn't like it, I tried lots of ideas to make it ok with him to get his hair washed, but he is still not a fan of it most nights, so, I asked him if he would like a really short haircut that wouldn't get dirty as easily and he went for it, so he gets it washed once a week or once every 2 weeks (I ask every night and that's about how often he agrees). If he wanted his hair long and still hated having it washed I would either need to keep trying for creative solutions that would work for him, or let it go---it's his hair. Yes- it worked out easily for me, but that doesn't mean that if it had been harder I would've given up and washed the hair of a screaming/crying child-----well, I might have done it---BUT, it would not have been right for me to do so, and I would need to apologize later and figure out something better. Just b/c it's harder doesn't mean it's not necessary to respect your child's wants (those which do not pose any real threat).

So- yes, more spirited children are more difficult to parent (that's how they get the label







), but, you can still work toward respecting their wishes more.

Sometimes I too don't feel like doing more laundry, and cringe when they start playing in the mudd, but I have choices other than making myself a martyr (doing more laundry which I really don't want to do) or setting an arbitrary limit (no playing in the mudd today), I can go over to my child and say, "I don't want to do more laundry today, and I am afraid that you will get your clothes very dirty playing in the mudd" and see what they say (surely this would not work for very young children, which is why my young ones wear "play clothes" 99% of the time), if they still want to play in the mudd I need to determine what to do next, I could try to get their interest onto something else, or I could decide that a little more laundry won't kill me, and make a mental note to remember to put them in play clothes (and keep a set in the car).

On the "junk food" issue, my kids are allowed junk food when they want it, I do the grocery shopping here and I don't buy junk, at friend's b-day parties or at Grammy's house, they are exposed to junk food more and they want it and I let them eat it, though I haven't allowed them soda yet, they haven't really wanted it, and so, I haven't had to "let go" of that, if one of them balked at that arbitrary limit of mine (they don't even ask for it), I would have to admit that soda is not likely to kill them and give them a cup of it.

"Junk food" and TV are big limits that I see discussed here often. I tend to believe that if you feel strongly that TV is bad for kids, you need to get it out of your house, and if junk food is a problem don't buy it, then, when at other's homes--LET GO! That's how I avoid those "arbitrary limits", actually, in my house we do allow TV b/c I am comfortable with a small amount of TV watching and my kids are always more interested in going outside, playing with the art box, etc. anyway.

The thing is, I bet everyone here has some arbitrary limits, I think the idea is work towards getting rid of them, that is where I am right now, I do have a bunch of arbitrary limits that I am working my way through, I am working to be the kind of parent I want to be and giving my children the respect I feel they deserve.


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## redheadmama (Nov 21, 2001)

You're right, ParisMaman, with regard to the laundry, that's an issue that is mine, not my childrens'. (Wouldn't it be great if they could do their own wash, then I wouldn't need to spend so much time on that activity and could spend more time taking them to the park to get dirty?)







I guess what I was getting at is that maybe the issue of setting limits, in most circumstances is far more complicated than people think. There are so many variables involved that the hard part is just trying to maintain consistency. I also think that children will always test their limits (whether it gets labelled as adversarial or not probably depends on how far they push those limits...some go much farther than others...) I do believe that all children need some limits, or boundaries that are consistently applied. The most important of all being: "Treat others the way you want to be treated." I guess the question to ask is what value am I trying to instill by setting this or that limit?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I think many posters here see those as safety issues. There is scientific data on the dangers of eating too much sugar, on watching too much television, etc. So I'm not sure those are limits based on personal whim.

I would agree with this as a "safety issue" if it was a steady diet of candy bars, potato chips and soda. I guess I was really responding to a specific thread about how to not let your kids have something you (not you specifically PM, just the general "parent you") think is "junk" while they are visiting someone else's house or at playgroup. A limited occurance in other words, not a daily diet. I guess I'm very not convinced that a handfull of goldfish or a commercial cookie is going to have any real impact on a child in the long term (excepting allergies of course). (Oops, is it against the rule to talk about one thread in a different thread?) Ditto with people getting freaked about Grandma showing them TV on an occassional visit or something.

I guess it boils down to what happens when your child is offered something you don't approve of on an occassional basis and you say "no"? Is that a limit? Does it hinge on whether you think 1 TV show or 1 potato chip is a long-term health risk? (If so, then I guess that's a whole different debate).

Totally off topic -- This has been a great thread in part because people have done such a good job of discussing the issue without being judgemental or angry about stuff.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
From what I've read throughout hte years, it seems (and that's all it is ~ it SEEMS) that your dd is in many respects "easier to handle" by you than mine is by me, but that's no excuse for me to treat her less than respectfully and gently.











I think regardless of our child's personality, treating him or her with respect is vital.

I do have a danger baby, and I intervene when I need to protect her, but I also respect and admire her need to explore and learn. I have my cranky days, but I strive to be gentle with HOW I limit her.

It isn't simply about what is or is not allowed. Just as important in how we handle what isn't allowed.

You what my biggest challenge is these days?







: I'm always yelling at the dogs. I seem to channel all my patience into dd and then have none left for my young dogs. I hate how I sound - and dd is hearing it. So I may talk to HER gently but she is still being exposed to negativity.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

Also, the word 'arbitrary' when it comes to setting limits is a bit vague... When I limit my child from rolling down the grassy slope one day but not the next, it may appear arbitrary, but for me it's not. Today I have way too much laundry and it's not 'convenient' for me that ds adds to it. I suppose the word convenient (or perhaps tolerable) with regard to the parent is what it boils down to because somedays we are able to tolerate our children's behaviour and other days we simply aren't. When we try to always act the same way towards our child as well as siblings who require different levels of 'interference' , (ie., to always be consistent with regard to OUR behaviour) we run into problems because we human beings aren't naturally that way.
This strikes a cord with me.....as much as I try (and I really do) some days will be days when I can handle xy&z and other days will be days that I can't. I don't see any problem in teaching our children that mommy can't always do or allow them to do what they want. Sometimes mommy's wants will need to come before theirs - just as sometimes mommy is more then happy to put her wants aside to meet theirs......KWIM? Is that so wrong? If anything I see it as teaching them about respecting other people. Now that is not to say that I have to be 'mean and nasty' about how I apporach the 'limit' - I don't have to be snappy and just say no without a reason or offering an alternative - but I think it is fine to say no and mean no even if is only because 'I as the mom simply can't allow it at this moment'.

For example - we have a BIG mud pit in our back yard. Most days I am more then happy to allow the kids to get down and dirly - mud in their hair, mud all over everthing - just plain mud fun! But some days I am just not up for the aftermath - which is a bath, ect....I am having TERRIBLE reflux with this pgcy and leaning over the tub or shower and trying to get them clean (and yes they need to be wiped down - just sitting in the water dosn't alwasy do it) just makes the acid come up and makes me want to throw up.......So on those days we have a 'no mud day'.... sometimes the kids are sad and upset about it - but they accept it and we do something else. In fact now before they go outside they ask if it is a 'mud day' or a 'no mud day'......


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I would agree with this as a "safety issue" if it was a steady diet of candy bars, potato chips and soda. I guess I was really responding to a specific thread about how to not let your kids have something you (not you specifically PM, just the general "parent you") think is "junk" while they are visiting someone else's house or at playgroup. A limited occurance in other words, not a daily diet. I guess I'm very not convinced that a handfull of goldfish or a commercial cookie is going to have any real impact on a child in the long term (excepting allergies of course). (Oops, is it against the rule to talk about one thread in a different thread?) Ditto with people getting freaked about Grandma showing them TV on an occassional visit or something.

If anyone wants to check out what that thread was _really_ about, here it is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=gracefully

It was about not offending the one who offered while still adhering to the healthy diet we as parents have chosen. It was never about beging offended by junk food or the offerer - quite the opposite!

I have to agree with ParisMaman on this one - limiting junk food and TV are clear safety issues to me. There is plenty of research out there to back me up. No dichotomy on this issue, IMO.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redheadmama*
I do believe that all children need some limits, or boundaries that are consistently applied. The most important of all being: "Treat others the way you want to be treated." I guess the question to ask is what value am I trying to instill by setting this or that limit?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
This strikes a cord with me.....as much as I try (and I really do) some days will be days when I can handle xy&z and other days will be days that I can't. I don't see any problem in teaching our children that mommy can't always do or allow them to do what they want. Sometimes mommy's wants will need to come before theirs - just as sometimes mommy is more then happy to put her wants aside to meet theirs......KWIM? Is that so wrong? If anything I see it as teaching them about respecting other people. Now that is not to say that I have to be 'mean and nasty' about how I apporach the 'limit' - I don't have to be snappy and just say no without a reason or offering an alternative - but I think it is fine to say no and mean no even if is only because 'I as the mom simply can't allow it at this moment'.

For example - we have a BIG mud pit in our back yard. Most days I am more then happy to allow the kids to get down and dirly - mud in their hair, mud all over everthing - just plain mud fun! But some days I am just not up for the aftermath - which is a bath, ect....I am having TERRIBLE reflux with this pgcy and leaning over the tub or shower and trying to get them clean (and yes they need to be wiped down - just sitting in the water dosn't alwasy do it) just makes the acid come up and makes me want to throw up.......So on those days we have a 'no mud day'.... sometimes the kids are sad and upset about it - but they accept it and we do something else. In fact now before they go outside they ask if it is a 'mud day' or a 'no mud day'......

I love these two quotes. I love them because I think parenting isn't just about what the kids want and need, but how to give the kids what they need and/or want within the context of a whole family made up of individuals with equally legitimate wants and needs. Everything I do affects my kids, and everything they do affects me. We're not just part of a family, but part of each other. Sometimes there isn't a reason to say no to something the kids want or want to do other than that I just can't find a way to handle it at that particular time. I do think limit-setting, or boundary-setting, or socialization, or whatever you want to call it is very much unique to each family. I don't think we have a single rule/limit/boundary/<insert term here> that does not have at least one exception. I can relate to the mud example by graceoc. I often let my kids mix up a "recipe" using whatever they find in the baking drawer plus water. It's fun and a great science experiment, but creates a huge mess that they cannot clean up themselves. Most of the time I don't relish the idea of cleaning up the mess but I let them do it anyway. Somedays they ask to do it and I say no, for no other reason than that I think I just can't handle it. Maybe there are too many other things to do that day, maybe the kitchen's already messy and I'm overwhelmed with chores and the baby's fussy. Maybe it's arbitrary to sometimes say no and sometimes say yes depending on what I can handle. But I don't think it's unreasonable. I know that if I get too overwhelmed it seriously impacts my parenting abilities, which is much worse than saying "no you can't do it today." I always explain to them why I said no, and if there really is no good reason I'll often reconsider, discuss it with them, and ultimately say yes.

I keep coming back to the thought that to me what's most important is, like someone else said, having respect for my kids. Treat them the way I'd like to be treated. Explain why I said no or why they have to wait or why they have to wear sneakers outside at Pa's house even though they go barefoot at home (Pa's afraid they'll hurt their feet, it's truly a big deal for him, and wearing sneakers is a small compromise that will allow everyone to have a great time). Listen to their thoughts and feelings as well. Be open to compromise or to changing my mind.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I think parenting isn't just about what the kids want and need, but how to give the kids what they need and/or want within the context of a whole family made up of individuals with equally legitimate wants and needs.

Quote:

I know that if I get too overwhelmed it seriously impacts my parenting abilities, which is much worse than saying "no you can't do it today."

This is exaclty how I feel......


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## redheadmama (Nov 21, 2001)

Sledg- you said it much better than I did...


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## rubysmomjess (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uberwench*
Someone, somewhere (and I can't seem to find the quote again) wrote abuot thinking of your child as being a visiting scientist in your house - the house is his lab, and he's got all these experiments running simultaneously. Would you want to hinder a scientist at work? I feel it is my responsibility to make the "lab" as safe as possible, and the rules that do exist are the ones that make the lab useable by other members of the scientific community (me and dh).

I have been lurking on this thread for a bit. DD is just starting to really test limits and I find myself saying "not", "don't", and "stop" a lot more than I think is neccessary. But sometimes the "experiments" are just so messy!

Anyway, I quoted this comment, because last night I was telling dh about this thread and how this quote in particular made sense (both dh and I are geeky scientist/engineer types). Just then he had handed dd a cracker and she drops it in her water, pulls it out puts it back in the water, takes it back out and proceeds to smush it around on the table. All I could do was laugh, poor thing was totally confused. The last couple of days have been really stressfull and it just made me laugh so hard!

Anyway, I think limits or less limits are easier in the home. Put things away you don't want broken and somethings like stoves and things are just no because of safety. It's outside in the world that I really struggle. What's ok to set limits or say no to (besides obvious saftey thing), and what am I being silly about?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I think the mud and reflux example is the perfect example of how respectful parenting helps everyone! There is a built in flexibility that ends up going both ways. I think kids who are used to having thier needs AND WANTS met with consideration and respect will behave that way back to their parents and others.

What I think is funny about some of the tv/junk food limits is the assumption that if you don't limit it that that's all they will do. That's not true. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite happen, where the kids who are refused these things treat it as forbidden fruit and when they get the chance they DO go hog wild.


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## nic (Jan 13, 2003)

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Here are a few thoughts:

I think there's an assumption by many people that kids want limits because without them they would not feel secure and parents fear they would grow wild and unruly. What may be more accurate though is that kids want information about how their parents (and others) feel about their behavior and to be informed when their parents are not feeling accepting of a behavior - this information gives the child the opportunity to modify that behavior on their own. This is quite different from wanting a parent to use authority to set limits on their behavior. Children, like adults, want to be the authority over their own behavior. If my husband tells me "You are not permitted to leave the cabinets open in the kitchen anymore. That is my limit. Don't do it anymore.", I would be very displeased, feel disrespected and resentful. I mean, it would be ridiculous for him to try and direct and control my behavior. However, if my husband told me "I get so annoyed when the cabinets are left open, it drives me kinda crazy, hon.", I would be receptive to that and out of respect try and modify that behaviour. I want to try and give my child that same respect, letting her know when something is unsafe, unhealthy or unacceptable to me but in a manner that gives her the opportunity to have some control over how she responds. Therefore, to me _setting_ limits seems to imply the use of power and control (things I don't find gentle and useful in my interaction with my child) whereas _explaining_ a limit, negotiating, finding alternatives are gentler, more respectful ways of helping children to make choices that are safe, healthy and respectful of themselves and others.

PS My thoughts on this issue are heavily influenced by Dr. Thomas Gordon, author of Parent Effectiveness Training. (Lousy title, good book)

PPS A thank you to ParisMaman who encouraged this long term lurker to start posting.


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## allisondelong (Jul 3, 2004)

New to this so may screw up post or thread... anyway, we also had a friend who doesn't seem to notice or care when her young one climbs on our furniture or otherwise behaves in ways that we would not allow our child to (especially in someone else's home). I have always felt comfortable gently and kindly correcting other people's kids in my home or company by saying, "no shoes on the couch please", "quiet voice in the restaurant please", or "just a minute, the grown ups are talking". When said gently, kindly, but with a sort of underlying assumption that of course anyone would recognize the appropriateness of the request, it's never been met with any verbal objection. Important though to limit to a few behaviors so the parent doesn't feel like you're constantly picking on her kid.

I loved the other poster's quote about a child being a little scientist. With my 15 month old I'm having to constantly reassess if I'm saying no for my convenience (he wants to get into the cupboard where the pots & pans are, and no real hazards, but sure interesting - no real reason to stop him and curiosity met he gets bored and moves on) or his safety (no pulling on the cord that is attached to the hot & heavy iron). It's a constant balance between putting truly serious hazards away, and letting them learn by experience that a slightly hot coffee cup might hurt a little (certainly not hot enough to scald) - "oh, that's what mommy means by "hot - dangerous".


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Therefore, to me setting limits seems to imply the use of power and control (things I don't find gentle and useful in my interaction with my child) whereas explaining a limit, negotiating, finding alternatives are gentler, more respectful ways of helping children to make choices that are safe, healthy and respectful of themselves and others.
And it was worth the wait!









Quote:

What I think is funny about some of the tv/junk food limits is the assumption that if you don't limit it that that's all they will do. That's not true.
I'm not so sure about that one - about the TV. I've seen plenty of children who watch TV for hours and hours. I knew a girl who at 2 watched TV on all day long - and at 4 still does. Her parents would set up the laptop on her highchair while she ate dinner.

My dd is a huge homebody. If we had a TV around I am quite sure she would spend a significant portion of her time in front of it. I do let her play CD-Roms now. She would pass most of her time on them. I've tested that theory.







We use a timer and she is very agreeable to that. I limit it now because of eye strain, posture and other health hazards of which she is well-informed.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm loving this thread. I've been talking about it a lot with friends.

One aspect that was just brought up that resonates with me was the mud and reflux example.

One big goal for my family is to emphasize the family unit, kind of like working as a team with tons of respect and give and take among the family members. I understand that most of the giving will come from parents, but I hope that there will be enough respect and understanding from DC that they could understand the occassional needs of the parent, especially when the needs (or limits) are rationally explained.

I used the concept of teamwork in my middleschool classroom. Granted a classroom is different from a family, but it was good to see how much the kids _got_ and _respected_ the idea. They really appreciated being an active member of a team rather than being powerless.

Not only do I think this is not limiting. I think that it teaches empathy and social mores.

My only child is only 17 mos, so this is mostly theory.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Yes. I agree.

Last night I had a very bad stomach ache. Dd wanted everyone to play a board game. So she brought it to the living room where I was resting on the couch. Papa was on the floor with her. Dd said, "I want all of us to play: maman, papa, dd. But let's ask maman if she wants to play cause she has a tummy ache. Maman, do you want to play?"

"No," I replied, "I can't really. My stomach really hurts."

"Papa," she said, "Maman can't play, her stomach hurts."

And they played their game.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nic*
What may be more accurate though is that kids want information about how their parents (and others) feel about their behavior and to be informed when their parents are not feeling accepting of a behavior - this information gives the child the opportunity to modify that behavior on their own.

Children, like adults, want to be the authority over their own behavior.

I want to try and give my child that same respect, letting her know when something is unsafe, unhealthy or unacceptable to me but in a manner that gives her the opportunity to have some control over how she responds. Therefore, to me _setting_ limits seems to imply the use of power and control (things I don't find gentle and useful in my interaction with my child) whereas _explaining_ a limit, negotiating, finding alternatives are gentler, more respectful ways of helping children to make choices that are safe, healthy and respectful of themselves and others.

Thank you, Nic.







That makes so much sense. I could not find the words to articulate that.

Thank you, ParisMaman, for starting this discussion, for making me think. My kids thank you too. You ask the best questions and provoke a lot of thought!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

PM - that is such a sweet story.


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## redheadmama (Nov 21, 2001)

*From: William and Martha Sears - The Discipline Book*

Quote:

Limit setting is not the big undoing that some think it might be...

Quote:

...don't feel you always have to offer your child an explanation for your decision - your discipline doesn't always have to make sense to your child. Sometimes all that is necessary is giving your child the message "Because this is what I want you to do." Children expect us to be adults. That knowledge frees them to be children.
*From: John B. Thomson - Natural Childhood*

Quote:

But the child needs us to set firm limits and, if we don't, she will demand more and more until finally we are forced into saying "No" and perhaps shouting it too... We have the right to say "No" at any time. Some of us feel that we have to say "Yes" to our child's every reasonable demand. But we are only human and each of us has only limited time and energy to give our child.
*From: Dr. Thomas Gordon - Parent Effectiveness Training*

Quote:

Common sense and experience strongly support the idea that children do want limits in their relationship with parents. They need to know how far they can go before their behavior will be unacceptable. Only then can they choose not to engage in such behaviors. This applies to all human relationships.
*From: Jane Nelsen - Positive Discipline A-Z*

Quote:

It's okay to say no. If all you ever say is no that's a problem, but some parents don't think they have the right to say no without lengthy explanations.
*From: Dorothy Corkille Briggs - Your Child's Self-Esteem*

Quote:

Overprotective parents or ones who refuse to involve themselves in establishing limits make children feel inadequate and unloved.
*From: Joseph Chilton Pearce - Magical Child*

Quote:

Obviously, there must be boundaries, the child needs them. Boundaries give his world structure... Surely there must be boundaries concerning property, persons, the rights of family members, and so on, but these are few unless arbitrarily fussed over, and the child will take his cues surprisingly well if the lines of the relationship are clearly drawn.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

redheadmama-
i'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say.

i think we'd all agree that boundaries, having respect for family members, and some kind of "rules" or whatever you want to call them, esp in regard to safety, fit into our lives in one way or another---
all the while leaving out arbitrary limit setting and saying no for the sake of convienence.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
What I think is funny about some of the tv/junk food limits is the assumption that if you don't limit it that that's all they will do. That's not true. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite happen, where the kids who are refused these things treat it as forbidden fruit and when they get the chance they DO go hog wild.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I'm not so sure about that one - about the TV. I've seen plenty of children who watch TV for hours and hours. I knew a girl who at 2 watched TV on all day long - and at 4 still does. Her parents would set up the laptop on her highchair while she ate dinner.

My dd is a huge homebody. If we had a TV around I am quite sure she would spend a significant portion of her time in front of it. I do let her play CD-Roms now. She would pass most of her time on them. I've tested that theory.







We use a timer and she is very agreeable to that. I limit it now because of eye strain, posture and other health hazards of which she is well-informed.

Yes, that was worded poorly on my part! What I should have said was that if you don't limit that they will _inherently_ do only that. That without limits, kids will simply respond by doing the "wrong" or "forbidden" thing. And I don't think that is true. I think there will be a period where previously limited things will be "binged" on, but over time I think that it will taper out.

The example of the laptop on the highchair kid sounds like a kid who is not free from limits, rather one who really is limited. Why would a kid want to watch TV during a fun dinner with the family? Maybe the dinner isn't fun for kid? I don't know, but that just sounds weird to me.

When we took our puppy to Puppy Kindergarten our trainer was very clear about dog proofing our homes. His message was to start VERY small with the puppy: Keep it in a crate unless you were going to watch it 100%. Then let it "have" the kitchen--under careful supervision and with all 'no nos' put away (trash, food, etc.). If it started to chew on a chair, say 'no', but give it a chew toy and praise it.

When you felt like the dog could 'handle' the kitchen, add the family room in the same manner. Eventually, the dog could have free reign of the house and would have learned the limitations, etc.

His point was that most people do the opposite. They let the puppy go in the house and it pees on something around the corner, it chews on a couch, etc. So people say, "No more going in the living room!" "No more going upstairs!" and begin to TAKE AWAY rather than ADD. And eventually the puppy is confined to the kitchen/laundry room/crate along with a handful of bad habits that are harder to unlearn than the good habits are to learn.

And I think attachment parenting is kind of like this scenario. If you are mindful and THERE with your kids: guiding them, babyproofing/toddlerproofing/kidproofing their environments (including the pysical space, but also books, tv, people, activities, etc.) you do eventually get to the point where there just aren't a lot of "No! Don't DO that--and now you have to be punished to unlearn that behavior!" scenarios.

My kid doesn't have a lot of rules or limits, but he also doesn't have the whole WORLD either. That makes a big difference. He can largely do what he pleases in HIS world, because as mindful parents we have tried to set him up for success.

He'll be 3 in a few months and he's started getting "bigger" more mature lately. So we've added some things and flexed on some things. He can hold my shirt as we cross the road now--he is pleased to have this added choice/responsibility (and he understands more about the danger/safety thing), so he is happy to do it. Really happy--not a compliant, not worth it to argue about it, resentful in a way he doesn't understand yet way.

Gotta run...needing to be a mom....


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Monkey's mom

I love your analogy with the dog, and thanks to people like the Pearls, I normally hate dog-child comparisons. :LOL

We had such a wonderful dog obedience class instructor, she was just like what you described, she said you should never hit a dog, EVER, she said that you should never call the dog over to you and then yell at them (ie- dog is barking or jumping on someone across the yard from you and you yell the dog's name and the dog comes and you hit it for what it did or yell at the dog) b/c all that teaches the dog is to not come when called.

I learned a lot about parenting from that woman. (and have always wondered if she was an APer with her kids)

I too, babyproof a lot for the reasons you mentioned, I like to create a "yes" environment, I know there are both sides of that issue on these forums, some believe like you and I, some believe in a more Continuum Concept way of doing things. Not sure really who is "right" on that, but I like things my way







as it helps me not to hover over my kids so much.

I think the main idea is to try/strive to place less limits on our kids, and to question our own reasoning for the ones we do impose, seems healthy to me







.


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