# when the need to protect stops being hypothetical.



## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

I hope I am posting in the right place.

We recently had a visit with extended family that has left me reeling. I need some help talking to my dd, age 4.5, about what happened, and I need some help figuring out how to proceed in the future.

I don't want to go overboard on details, but please ask if there is something relevant I've left out.

For a long time, I haven't felt altogether good about my BIL's relationship with my older dd. He is 17, and has Down syndrome. Although he is very interested in her, and in some ways very good with her (playing games etc.), he has always had boundary issues, and I have been on high alert for physical stuff since she was a baby. It started out with little things that could easily be construed as having been related to his disability (it is my understanding that many people with DS have trouble with social boundaries, affection boundaries, etc.). Ex. wanting to carry on with giving her belly raspberries for longer than was appropriate.

I resolved years ago that vigilance was required, and that BIL and dd ought never to be alone together, if only because he looks like an adult to her, but is not responsible like an adult, and it is confusing to her. Physical/sexual issues aside, it would be way too easy for them to get into an unsafe situation together. My dd does understand that he is "different," but at 4.5, understanding the subtleties of what that means is over her head. As far as I can tell, she thinks of him as 50% grownup, 50% kid, and is a little confused.

Fast forward to the recent visit. Dh and I had revisited the issue in advance and agreed to shared vigilance, making sure they weren't alone together, but instead played in the living room where we could supervise. One morning, when MIL was supposed to be keeping track, I had a sinking feeling and ran up the stairs, two at a time. As I bounded up, I heard his bedroom door click shut. As I approached the door, I heard a suggestive word. When I burst through the door, he looked alarmed and guilty, and quickly started rearranging his clothes.

OMG. I whisked my dd out of there; I told him in no uncertain terms that they were not to be alone together, not ever. I know that nothing had happened yet, but I also feel that I got there not a moment too soon.

Horrible.

The only good news is that this event finally got my dh to understand that I wasn't being alarmist all this time about his brother.

I felt like a real jerk at the time for not having read "Protecting the Gift" yet, even though I had heard of it and *meant* to read it. Since returning from this trip, I have read it, and I will henceforth be entirely unapologetic when it comes to protecting my children.

I feel sick about what [almost] happened. I don't know how to think about it. Does BIL just not get it? Is he acting knowingly, as a predator? Does it matter?

I don't know how to talk to my dd about it. I could really use some help with that. On the one hand, I don't want to scare her or alarm her. On the other hand, probably a certain amount of alarm is called for? She loves her uncle. Although I typically think of her as quite intuitive and wary, she has never seemed to be anything but adoring of him. I am not sure how much to talk about what happened, vs. simply starting to talk a lot more about bodies, safety, private parts, consent, etc. with an eye to the future. BTW, I could *really* use some suggestions (scripts, even!








) for how to start having these conversations.

And I don't know what to do about the future. MIL and BIL live far away, and an in-person visit won't come up again probably till summer, at least, so there's time to think about it. MIL is a good grandmother to my children, and loves them to pieces, but she does not get how very serious this is (even though dh talked to her after this last incident), and CANNOT be counted on to be as vigilant as is necessary. The rest of the visit after the incident I've described was very high-stress for me, with trying to keep tabs on dd every second and MIL lah-dee-da-ing about the whole thing (to be fair, she does nominally take it seriously, but her idea of vigilance is, "Hmm, where *have* BIL and dd gone?").

I am tempted to exclude BIL from visits for the forseeable future, but on the one hand, maybe this is cruel, and on the other, since my MIL has no one she can leave him with, it also pretty much means not visiting with her, which feels... I don't know. Unkind.

And finally, although I have known BIL since he was 7yo, I don't know anyone else with DS, and I feel confused about how much of his behavior is attributable to his disability, and therefore something to be monitored, but not judged; and how much is just plain sinister, predatory behavior.

Thank you for reading this. I am entirely out of my depth, and would be very grateful for any wisdom.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I have no real advice, but I couldn't read and not post.








s Thank goodness you got there when you did.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

While some of it might be natural curiosity ; ie, no big deal... I would not take a chance with my own kid. I would make a rule that they are never to be alone together, if your MIL can't enforce that then, no more visits to her home. End of story.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:

I feel sick about what [almost] happened. I don't know how to think about it. Does BIL just not get it? Is he acting knowingly, as a predator? Does it matter?
I don't know much about this disability. It might very well matter on his end of things as far as accountability goes, but it doesn't matter on your dd's end of things. If she is victimized, which to some extent she has been at this point even though you got there when you did, it hurts her just as much regardless of his disability.

I know it's hard on them, but I personally would not visit in this situation. I would put my dds' safety ahead of being nice and kind.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
If she is victimized, which to some extent she has been at this point even though you got there when you did, it hurts her just as much regardless of his disability.

I agree with this, and wonder how to address that aspect of things, i.e., that she has already been victimized.









Quote:

I know it's hard on them, but I personally would not visit in this situation. I would put my dds' safety ahead of being nice and kind.
I appreciate this viewpoint (also expressed by other PPs). What reason would you give? MIL is so in the dark about the whole thing, that I think this would take her out at the knees.

And it's not just about visiting them. Since she has no one to leave BIL with, it also pretty much means not being able to have her visit us here.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philosoikou* 
I agree with this, and wonder how to address that aspect of things, i.e., that she has already been victimized.









I appreciate this viewpoint (also expressed by other PPs). What reason would you give? MIL is so in the dark about the whole thing, that I think this would take her out at the knees.

And it's not just about visiting them. Since she has no one to leave BIL with, it also pretty much means not being able to have her visit us here.

She needs to know the truth for the sake of other children as well. She must have anticipated that as he become sexual in an adult way that there was potential for this? I would definitely tell her no matter how hard it is, and it's too bad that they cant' visit, but you can't bring someone who has proven himself to be unsafe into your daughter's home to victimize her.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I would visit a board with parents that have Down syndrome. They might be able to help you manage the situation and give your MIL ideas to manage/teach your BIL.

I think you might also have to be more honest to your daughter.

When my Great Aunt started mentally declining she lost her filters and would say ANYTHING! Yes, I did try to limit contact but there were not option at times. She was 90 plus years old and if it wasn't me dealing with her it was nobody







sad situation.

I would start family rules, no playing with the door closed -even at grandma's.

No going with anyone without asking Mommy and Daddy first. Good touch bad touch and keeping secrets are not good even from Gma, Uncle, any relatives.

Your bil might not be able to understand his actions. His mind is still at a level that is often, you show me yours I show you mine. But physically he is mature, with adult hormones.


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## cocobean (Jan 31, 2009)

So sorry that you have to deal with a situation like this!







I don't think there is any real ansewer to this. You must be most concerned for your daughter. Your gut is telling you that this is not ok and you should trust that. I agree you should talk to your daughter about good touch bad touch, and maybe tell her what you think about BIL. After telling her what a good touch and bad touch is explain that these rules apply to family members as well, not just strangers and not just adults. Tell her that her uncle is not the same as other adults and doesn't understand these rules. I wouldn't alarm her because what good does that do? Just make sure your are talking to her about this on several occasions because once isn't enough with a 4.5 year old. I was sexually abused by children my own age after they were abused by there DS brother. I don't think that they can really be blamed for what they are doing because they don't always understand but you don't have to play nice because of that. I'm sure if you did some research online you could find other resources to help you out with scripting and such. I try and look for some myself and post here if I find anything. Also if I were you I would not trust my MIL to watch my child if he is there. Not because she's not a good care provider for DD but because she obviously doesn't understand. If you've talked with her and she doesn't get it she's never going to entirely get it. I don't envy your situation but you're doing the right thing in protecting your DD, trust me!!


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you so much. All of these responses are helping a lot. I am glad I decided to post. Please, keep 'em coming!

Also, I appreciate the "tough love" responses as well. I don't mind hearing the hard facts, and I don't mind being criticized. I already know that I haven't handled this all that well, and do not feel over-sensitive about it. I just want to do the right thing for our family.

Thank you!


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## cocobean (Jan 31, 2009)

I found this number, it's 365 days a week and 24 hour hotline. They have counselors all the time to talk to about these kinds of things. This website also has many resources for parents to talk to their children about good touch bad touch. Don't wait until your DD is touched. Good luck!!!









http://www.childhelp.org/get_help

1-800-4-A-CHILD


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## cocobean (Jan 31, 2009)

I think you've handled this very well. You stopped your DD from being sexually abused! It's hard and there is not right way to deal with this!!


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

I would cross post this in the special needs forum:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...play.php?f=157


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Whether he is accountable or not, the point is that the situation/opportunity exists. I don't think it really matters at this point. What matters is ensuring your daughter's safety. And then, if it matter to you, coming up with a game plan for future contact with the family.

Unless the ILs have major hangups about their son having DS, I think it will probably be okay to just have an honest yet tactful discussion about it. Maybe they are already aware [of his budding sexuality] and this is simply something that needs to be watched for and prevented.

B/c it is such a serious issue, I wonder if perhaps you are feeling anxiety about discussing this with them....the negative connotations of this perhaps make him out to be a 'bad guy' or 'gross' or 'deviant.' When really it is just something that everyone has to face and deal with.


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

Good for you for trusting your instincts and dashing up those stairs. I would not under any circumstances leave them alone together. It doesn't matter if his disability is the reason he doesn't know what he is doing is ok, it is not safe for your DD to be around him. Period. Again you should feel confident that your mama senses were working.

You and your DH can work with your MIL to figure out when you can spend time with just her. You can all research dayhab programs. If he is 17 and has Downs severe enough to cause him to not understand that physical "experimentation" or what ever he was doing/thinking of doing is wrong, then he should be eligible for schooling till he is 21 and be offered a 12 month school year. There are also many different types of programs for adults with special needs (even sleep away camps), so there are options for your MIL to have time away to spend with your DD in a safe environment.

As for talking to your little one about it. I can't offer too much advice just that it needs to be discussed and reinforce to her that not seeing her uncle is not a punishment to her in anyway. As a survivor of abuse by a family friend I can tell you that children often rush to blame themselves.

Good luck,


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I've worked with children and adults with DS and he really, really doesn't get it. He's NOT a monster. Or a pedophile, or a predator. But he is wired differently and he doesn't understand and, depending on his degree of developmental disability, there's a chance that he won't ever understand. He has all the active and normal hormones of a young man but he has demonstrated that he currently does not have the capacity to differentiate between family member, minor child, appropriate partner, familial love, and sexual love. This is pretty common as folks with DS hit puberty -- a tough period for anyone to navigate.

I know that's blunt, but I think you get it. You've got great instincts and you've been listening to them. Keep doing so. I don't know him, but it sounds like he loves your daughter and she him, and they have real affection and attachment to each other. I would encourage that, if it were my daughter, but you're right...I would never, ever allow them to be alone and unsupervised. I would reinforce over and over again healthy and appropriate demonstrations of affection to him, calmly, like you would to a toddler.

This comes up a lot in group home and assisted living situations and it's common to have trained staff and a life coach help guide and repeat social appropriateness. Friendly hugs that don't last too long, shaking hands, being gentle, etc. Does he have a coach or a respite care worker? Would your MIL be willing to talk with them about working on this?


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 

Your bil might not be able to understand his actions. His mind is still at a level that is often, you show me yours I show you mine. But physically he is mature, with adult hormones.

This describes my husband's uncle.He does not have downs syndrome but a brain injury that left his mind like a child.He is very physical and LOVES the ladies.However someone obviously taught him about what is and is not acceptable.He loves to hug but is very careful.You can tell he makes an effort to not accidentally touch anyone's boob.

I think your MIL really needs to step up and teach her son.It doesn't sound like she is acknowledging the fact that he has the hormones of a 17 yr old boy.Do you think there might be a class in her area to send him to?Or a class for her to learn how to teach him what she needs to?


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
This comes up a lot in group home and assisted living situations and it's common to have trained staff and a life coach help guide and repeat social appropriateness. Friendly hugs that don't last too long, shaking hands, being gentle, etc. Does he have a coach or a respite care worker? Would your MIL be willing to talk with them about working on this?

I cross posted with this one but that's the kind of thing I was thinking about.


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
I've worked with children and adults with DS and he really, really doesn't get it. He's NOT a monster. Or a pedophile, or a predator. But he is wired differently and he doesn't understand and, depending on his degree of developmental disability, there's a chance that he won't ever understand. He has all the active and normal hormones of a young man but he has demonstrated that he currently does not have the capacity to differentiate between family member, minor child, appropriate partner, familial love, and sexual love. This is pretty common as folks with DS hit puberty -- a tough period for anyone to navigate.

I know that's blunt, but I think you get it. You've got great instincts and you've been listening to them. Keep doing so. I don't know him, but it sounds like he loves your daughter and she him, and they have real affection and attachment to each other. I would encourage that, if it were my daughter, but you're right...I would never, ever allow them to be alone and unsupervised. I would reinforce over and over again healthy and appropriate demonstrations of affection to him, calmly, like you would to a toddler.

This comes up a lot in group home and assisted living situations and it's common to have trained staff and a life coach help guide and repeat social appropriateness. Friendly hugs that don't last too long, shaking hands, being gentle, etc. Does he have a coach or a respite care worker? Would your MIL be willing to talk with them about working on this?

Yes to this.

Depending on the severity of his DS and his ability to function, you could have many issues here.

You need to talk to your MIL about what happened. Let her know that maybe it's time for him to be getting a "buddy" who can help him with these difficult situations. He needs to have another man who is trained to work with him through these weird feelings.

They should never be unsupervised, but that is YOUR job, momma. It's not your MIL's (unless you leave your DD with her, which I wouldn't recommend until she's shown awareness of what your BIL is going through).

Meanwhile, you need to talk to your DD about your BIL's disability, and that means you need to learn about what it means to have DS. Check out some books from the library (there are LOTS of great books at the early school level on DS), and talk about how he's different and how she's feeling about what happened.

Please visit them - don't cut them off. Your BIL needs help and understanding, and with a little bit of vigilance from you (and hopefully help from a social coach), it can be a really pleasant time. Disability isn't something that should come between an uncle and his niece - you just need to handle it well.


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## Brittee (Jan 28, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philosoikou* 
When I burst through the door, he looked alarmed and guilty, and quickly started rearranging his clothes.

Judging by his reaction I think that on some level he is aware of his adult hormones, and that he probably has had some kind of conversations with the MIL about them. The fact that he looked guilty instead of confused makes me think that he is aware of his body in an adult way, even though he may not have the capacity to choose an appropriate outlet. Although it may limit your choices and length of visit, I would recommend staying in a hotel when you go and visit your family. At the end of the day you can go back to your room and sleep peacefully knowing your DD is safe. Then the next day you can gear up your energy reserves for another day of hawkeye surveillance. And if you can still suggest that DD takes naps to MIL, you could even take a break midway through the day and revisit your room to nap in comfort and peace of mind. I would suggest the same thing for MIL and BIL visiting you as well. You need time in a safe place to recharge so that you can face the unfortunate stress of this situation.
I think you are treating this with the best approach possible. I was abused by a family member, and always wondered why my mom let that happen when she told me much much later that I had to be careful with that person because they did questionable things. For DD, I think it's important to instill in her now that her body is hers and hers alone. Good work Mama, and keep at it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm not going to address this from the "how to deal with BIL" side of it, because it's not something I really know that much about, and I think that previous posters have covered it really well. I will emphasize that he's not a predator, imo.

On the other side...my grandfather suffered a brain hemmorhage when I was six months old. Physically, it rendered him hemiplegic. Mentally, it damaged - no, destroyed - his sense of boundaries and appropriate behaviour. He made inappropriate (very) remarks to me, my sister, my female cousins and my friends. He also sexually abused all of his female grandchildren. I'm not sure when it started, but I was very young (I'd guess probably about 2.5 or 3 or thereabouts). It wasn't anything violently physical, as he wasn't physically capable of that.

It came to a screeching halt when my mom found out about it. I guess I was about...8? Maybe 9? Something like that...still prepubescent, in any case. Mom talked to us about it several times. The gist was that we knew grandpa wasn't "okay", and that this was part of it. It wasn't our fault - it was because he was "sick" (not sure what other words she could have used, but we understood that one). After several years of being told my my grandmother that it wasn't his fault - which my mind always took to mean it must be mine...who else was there?

Emotional attachment...as things shook out over the years, my feelings of hostility solidified. They were never, ever directed at my grandfather, which some people find odd. But, while I couldn't understand all the ramifications of it, even my child's brain understood that grandpa wasn't "normal". It was my grandmother who I came to despise and, eventually (after her death), to pity. She was the one who made the decision to teach us shame, guilt, etc. and the one who then bought us off with astonishing amounts of junk food. I hated her guts...but I didn't hate grandpa. He was seriously physically handicapped, and by the time I was about 12, he was incapable of being any more threat to me than I allowed him to be. I kept my distance, and if he said something inappropriate, I told him it was inappropriate, and that was that. (The only other incident that ever occurred was when he tried to cop a feel while I was borrowing a cigarette when I was about 14 - and no, he had no grasp that he shouldn't be giving cigarettes to his teenage granddaughter, either.) I felt a great deal of affection for him, and visited him in the long-term care facility fairly regular. When he was clear and lucid (much like he'd been when mom was growing up, according to her), he was a really wonderful man, and I loved listening to him talk about his younger days - working and traveling on the tugboats. From the time I was about 12 or 13, I don't recall ever thinking a bad thought about him, and would happily kiss him on the cheek (from the side, so he couldn't grab if the thought should pop into his head) whenever I left. I was sad when he died. The only sorrow I've ever felt for my grandmother is that her life was so incredibly wasted. If I were responsible for writing her epitaph, it would be "she missed the whole point".

I'm rambling. This is all territory I've wandered in my own head many, many times (I'm 41 - my grandparents were both dead by the time I turned 22), but it's not territory I verbalize that often.

Grandpa didn't just lack an understanding of boundaries. He was given the opportunity to violate them by his wife. I'd have very much missed my relationship with grandpa, and I'm glad it was allowed to develop, with safeguards. More to the point...I'm glad it was spelled out to me, in no uncertain terms, that there was something wrong with _him_, and that what he was doing wasn't okay, but also wasn't my fault.

I don't really know where I"m going with this, OP. When I read your post, I found myself thinking of your BIL as my grandfather and your MIL as my grandmother. She _has_ to understand how serious this is. The actions of my grandparents resulted in a lot of issues among the grandchildren, including a pattern of self-damaging relatonships, a lack of sexual boundaries (eg. describing sex acts between oneself and one's partner in mixed company, and without regard to whether or not children could overhear), a pattern of promiscuity (and I don't mean so much the number of partners, as the attitude around it), an eating disorder, and a lot of other complicated issues. Out of four of us (the girls), only one never despised grandma. Whether you continue to visit or not, her unwillingness to look at this for what it is could cost her any real relationship with her granddaughter.

With your dd, I think you need to find a way to put this that makes it clear that what he's doing violates boundaries (eg. "good touch/bad touch" talk) _and_ that it's because of a problem _he_ has. That doesn't have to mean making him sound like a monster. I actually did like that my mom phrased it as being "sick", but grandpa's issue was different than your BIL's, so I don't know if that would work or not...

Okay - I've typed a lot, and said not much, so I guess that's it. Good luck in dealing with this. I can't imagine how your heart must have sunk.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I don't have experience with older children/teenagers with disabilities, only preschool and elementary age.

If it were me, I would still do the rare visits you've been doing, but I would make sure my child knows, and MIL knows, they are NOT NOT NOT to be out of sight or behind closed doors AT ALL. And if you don't think you can trust MIL to be as vigilant as NECESSARY then you'll have to do it yourselves.

I would absolutely make sure NONE of my children were out of sight/earshot with him PERIOD. (I mean like if they are in the livingroom playing or watching TV and you are in the next room in the kitchen cooking--you might not have your eyes on them every second but they are not behind closed doors and you can hear everything.)

I *think* having known a little of older children with disabilities that they do have some sense of what adults would disapprove of---so if your child plain out refuses to go into a bedroom or behind any closed door with him, I think that will cure most of your problem right there.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

The insights from a DS front are helping a lot.

BIL is not severely disabled by the DS. He is very high-functioning. In a lot of ways, DS is the least of his problems. His (and my dh's) father is not only not a great role model; he's actually an example of what *not* to do. This reality has always been lost on BIL, who idolizes his unequivocally. MIL, though divorced from FIL, has only recently started limiting the time that BIL spends with him, and only after about one million various sketchy incidents, and only at our insistence.

So in a way, her not having anywhere else for him to go is our fault.

As for MIL, the posters who suggested that she is maybe not 100% on top of the sexuality game are spot-on. She'd rather pretend is isn't happening (which was also her approach with my dh







). It drives us crazy. Dh has tried to give him some correct information, but as I said, we don't see each other often. And BIL keeps ending up with [email protected] etc. -- ironically, only after visiting Dad.
















So BIL is not getting clear messages. Short of trying to change my MIL's whole perspective on the matter (impossible), we haven't really known what to do. I love the suggestion to help her find an adult male "buddy" for BIL. She is always looking for role models like this, but including explicit instruction about bodies, sexuality, social graces etc. would be a brilliant idea -- a very small, but perhaps powerful, counterweight to the terrible influence of his father.

*BIL is also very devious.* In fact, being devious is pretty much his MO. It's no wonder, given that he's been raised with constant coercion, bribery, blah blah. He's had kindness, but not dignity. He's always had load more attention for the dastardly things he does than for his good qualities. He's basically been trained to be devious.

...Which tips the scales away from "innocent DS kid" and a bit more towards "predator." After the incident I described, he continued to try to get my dd behind closed doors multiple times, almost succeeding once. And yes, he absolutely knows what he is doing. He might not know the *implications*, but he knows what he is doing.

All this to say... I'm not sure what. I guess I just wanted to give a clearer picture.

All of the input has been tremendously helpful. For the first time, I feel like I know which way is up.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

After the incident I described, he continued to try to get my dd behind closed doors multiple times, almost succeeding once. And yes, he absolutely knows what he is doing. He might not know the *implications*, but he knows what he is doing.
He might not understand the implications (and I have my doubts) but of course you do. I am going to come at this from the opposite of other posters.

I would end the relationship between my dd and her uncle. I would not allow it to continue. The fact is he is a predator whether he means it or not and is essentially a loaded gun.

What about other little girls? It isn't just about your daughter. Does he have acess to other children when he can be alone with them? A life coach is a great idea, but I would still never ever trust him.

Child sexual abuse is so serious and has such devestating consequences for all involved that I could not allow this relationship to continue if I were in your shoes.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

WRT BIL - he isn't a predator. Or he is, but only in the way a toddler or child could be seen to be one - you told him not to do something, he tried repeatedly to do it. I have a 3 year old here who cannot STOP trying to climb up to the cookies and the more she hears "no" the more she schemes to get to them. Because of your boundaries you have a big flashing "OMG NO!!!" alarm when it comes to sexual contact - he doesn't. He really really doesn't. He has the body of an adult man, but it's very likely he feels he's playing with an equal when he's with your DD. I think it might be helpful for you to regard him as a young child in these matters - NOT in terms of the harm he could do, but in terms of the depth of his intentions. I agree with PP's - he needs proper structured help with this. He may well never "get" boundaries of this nature, someone (preferably someone with knowledge and experience) needs to TEACH him about it all. This is a relatively normal thing for DS people to begin going through in their late teens, but he obviously needs guidance, asap, before it has an even bigger impact on his life.

WRT your DD. I think you did beautifully. Continue to be vigilant. Keep her with you or your DH at all times. Trust your instincts. Do not be afraid to insist that BIL begins getting the help he needs before you will have him around your DD again. Stress that you realise it isn't his fault, but also that you WILL be protecting your child, however necessary, and they need to get on board.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
WRT BIL - he isn't a predator. Or he is, but only in the way a toddler or child could be seen to be one - you told him not to do something, he tried repeatedly to do it. I have a 3 year old here who cannot STOP trying to climb up to the cookies and the more she hears "no" the more she schemes to get to them. Because of your boundaries you have a big flashing "OMG NO!!!" alarm when it comes to sexual contact - he doesn't. He really really doesn't. He has the body of an adult man, but it's very likely he feels he's playing with an equal when he's with your DD. I think it might be helpful for you to regard him as a young child in these matters - NOT in terms of the harm he could do, but in terms of the depth of his intentions. I agree with PP's - he needs proper structured help with this. He may well never "get" boundaries of this nature, someone (preferably someone with knowledge and experience) needs to TEACH him about it all. This is a relatively normal thing for DS people to begin going through in their late teens, but he obviously needs guidance, asap, before it has an even bigger impact on his life.

WRT your DD. I think you did beautifully. Continue to be vigilant. Keep her with you or your DH at all times. Trust your instincts. Do not be afraid to insist that BIL begins getting the help he needs before you will have him around your DD again. Stress that you realise it isn't his fault, but also that you WILL be protecting your child, however necessary, and they need to get on board.

Thank you so much for all of this. This feels compassionate and wise, and I find it enormously helpful.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said - you're getting great advice - but you mentioned feeling bad for not having read "Protecting the Gift."

Mama, that book isn't gonna help you out with this one. The things it has to say about predators who are children or developmentally disabled adults are generic, and they are things you demonstrably already know and are following up on.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

My step-mother is a lawyer for people with disabilities who are predators or violent. She loves the (mostly) guys she works with, but many of them will never be able to live on their own because they truly don't *get* that sexual abuse is not acceptable. I guess all I'm saying is that it seems that it's not, maybe, uncommon. I have to agree with others though, that they need to work hard on teaching him where the boundaries are before things get further out of hand.

What a difficult situation


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

philosoiku, does your MIL live in a relatively big metro center? Most cities (even small ones) have DSAs (Down Syndrome Associations), where they can hook her up with a buddy and other services for your BIL.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Whether or not he is a "predator," I wouldn't stay in their home again. Ever.

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

If you want to continue the relationship with grandma, go and visit and stay in a hotel or ask her to come to where you live.

Don't put your daughter in a situation where she could EASILY be molested or raped.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

One thing about the Playboy...maybe your FIL see's a need and is filling it the WRONG way. FIL might not be sticking his head in the sand and pretend it does not exist. If he doesn't get much time that can create a problem with what he can teach, just like with your dh.

Your bil needs to learn that it is OK to touch himself when he is by himself. Masterbation is not dirty or wrong. Masterbation gives your bil a safe outlet for his sexuality.

I would like to know why you say your fil was/is a bad influence. Sometimes the bad influence isn't that bad. Sometimes people do all the wrong things for the right reason.


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## Cetan Luta (Sep 27, 2009)

I personally would not be able to deal with the only thing keeping my daughter safe being me not having my back turned for even a second. Too much risk and guilt for me. If BIL is still actively trying to sneak DD off by himself, I would not allow them to be around each other. To me, no amount of affectionate relationship is worth the damages of sexual abuse. It just sounds way too risky to me. I feel sorry for BIL and the situation, but my DD would have to be more important. Handicapped or not, there is no way I would let my children hang out with someone who might abuse them in that way (to heck with intentions, that's not good enough for my little girls body) with their only safety net being my ability to stay on top of it. If BIL wasn't handicapped would you let him in lyour home after this? Does his not fully understanding the situation make it any better or easier to protect against? DD's safety should always come first. If he does manage to sneak her off sometime will she care later that he didn't understand? not to mention that you are setting yourself up for major guilt feelings if anything does ever happen, since you are the Only thing standing between her and him with the current arrangement. I would be setting about putting a much better safety net into place for DD before allowing any furthur contact. MIL seems to be enabling the situatin, and in addressing the situation with her, I would not let her off the hook for even a second about the seriousness of the situation, and the possible ramifications for any other children (or young women for that matter) that he may come into contact with. She needs to get him some real help now while he is just starting to get "curious" so that this does not turn into a long-term pattern of unconscious predatory behavior that would eventually lead to major legal trouble for him down the road. It is the only kind thing for everyone in his life, current and furture. JMHO


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## Apple Girl (Nov 2, 2007)

There's a lot of back and forth about whether or not BIL is at fault for his actions. He may or may not be, but ultimately, I don't think it matters - the consequences of something happening are too great to allow him to continue a relationship with DD. If you're up for constant vigilence, you could consider visiting briefly, but I would agree with a pp who suggested staying at a hotel so you could have safe downtime during the visit. Then, when you are with the family, be with your DD the ENTIRE time. Trust no one to watch her as well as you will (except maybe DH, if he's on board).

Anyway, it looks like you're coming to a similar conclusion. I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if he's a "predator" or merely an accidental abuser - either way, if he succeeds, your DD could be severely hurt by it. Not a risk I'd be willing to take, IMO, all familial feelings be damned.

And I second the previous poster who said that you shouldn't beat yourself up for not having read Protecting the Gift. In my opinion, based on your posts, it looks like you already understand the core message of the book, which is to trust your instincts and not put your kids at risk to avoid hurting others' feelings.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

This thread continues to be wonderfully thought-provoking. I think I will have to have dh read it so we can discuss together. I feel that now, more than ever, it is important for us to be on the same page. (And since this is his mother/brother, the negotiations that ensue are going to have to be mostly in his court.)

I'm hearing, I think, two camps: in the first, the folks who say that this is an unsustainable relationship; that our dd is in grave danger; and that the responsible thing to do is to sever the relationship for now.

In the second, I think I am hearing that this behavior should not be seen as predatory; that BIL needs support from us and others; that dd needs to be taught explicitly about the situation; and that this could continue to grow into a positive, or at least not detrimental, relationship.

My concern with the first camp is: isn't this discriminatory? If BIL is acting within "normal limits" for DS and is simply lacking guidance, don't we owe it to everyone to make that effort? (I guess the answer here depends in part on whether this behavior is actually considered "normal," if undesirable, by DS standards.)

My concern with the second is: basically, as stated by many others, this is pretty effing high-stakes. And it feels suffocatingly huge to have to be on top of dd's whereabouts every.single.second (which I fully acknowledge is _exactly_ what is required if we opt for future visits).

The point about other children who could be at risk with BIL is well taken. This is certainly symptomatic of a larger problem.

Finally, in response to a couple of PPs, yes, I am really, really sure that FIL is a very bad influence. I could go on all day, but for starters, the last time he had unsupervised contact with BIL, he left him alone at an outdoor event so he could run an errand, and BIL ended up commandeering a golf cart, driving it uncontrolled through a crowd of people (none of whom, thank god, were injured), and crashing into a tree. MIL got a call from a bystander who recognized BIL. And FIL thought everyone was overreacting. This sort of thing is entirely characteristic of him. Not to mention that he himself is the picture of social awkwardness, and is frequently inappropriate in social interactions with women. I do think he is seeing a legitimate gap in BIL's sexual understanding, but does it go without saying that providing nudey mags is perhaps not the best way to educate about appropriate conduct?!

The feedback here is invaluable.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

My concern with the first camp is: isn't this discriminatory? If BIL is acting within "normal limits" for DS and is simply lacking guidance, don't we owe it to everyone to make that effort? (I guess the answer here depends in part on whether this behavior is actually considered "normal," if undesirable, by DS standards.)
It doesn't matter one whit IMHO. You don't owe it to him to make an effort because that effort involved puts your daughter at risk for being abused. His feelings aren't in play at this time.

I really understand that this must be a tough situation but again if I were in your shoes I would not be concerned at all with the uncle (other then ensuring he does not have access to other children) or whether my actions were discriminatory.

Your daughters safety trumps all. And I know you know this-hope I am not coming off as suggesting you don't put your daughter first. I am only trying to say that in this case there is no way to safely make the effort. When one slip up means a chance of being abused? No way.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i couldn't read this and not respond.
i agree with betsyj. i would not allow any contact between dd and uncle, at least for years enough to elapse for her to be able to be able to be in control of any interaction.
whether or not it matters about ds child being "responsible," it is the nature of adolescents/young adults with ds to be overly affectionate and also to sometimes be unable to control sexual impulses. i used to work with adults with disabilities, and i knew a young man with ds who was unable to stop masturbating, to the point of causing himself harm. i have also known other adults/young adults/adolescents with ds who were awesome, funny, and had learned where touching boundaries were, and had great interactions with others of all ages, and knew the difference in appropriate and inappropriate actions.

where your dd is concerned, however, and the reason i suggest restricting contact, is because i was sexually abused as a child by an older family member with developmental disabilities.

sexual abuse doesn't always take the form of a "locking the door in another room.." exposure of genitalia, for instance, can take place while your mil - or even you- are in another room for a split second. touching, verbalizing, etc.- these are other forms of sexual interactions that could/can happen in moments a caregiver is occupied.

i hope that you feel supported by the mamas on mdc, and that you are able to come to a decision your family can live with. i send hugs as well.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

Would it be possible to limit times when they are in contact to things like a meal in a restaurant all together (with someone sitting between them) or a trip to the zoo etc where an adult can be with dd at all times and engaged with her rather than trying to do jobs. I understand both points of view, I'm wondering if there is a way to limit contact to only safe very supervised short visits, without completely cutting it off, until she is old enough to understand the situation and be responsible in some part for her own safety?


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roxswood* 
Would it be possible to limit times when they are in contact to things like a meal in a restaurant all together (with someone sitting between them) or a trip to the zoo etc where an adult can be with dd at all times and engaged with her rather than trying to do jobs. I understand both points of view, I'm wondering if there is a way to limit contact to only safe very supervised short visits, without completely cutting it off, until she is old enough to understand the situation and be responsible in some part for her own safety?

Yes, I agree that would be the perfect solution, but we live quite far away, so that a visit means at least a few days. :/


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

Ah ok, then I guess a hotel stay with planned visits out someplace during the daytimes might be the only way to do that, which is of course going to be expensive.


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

Is it possible to cut contact for now, until BIL gets some serious guidance from a professional (DS organization for example, like PPs have suggested) and then reevaluate in the future if supervised contact is appropriate?

I say this bc of your update where you said that after the incident, BIL continually tried to get your dd alone and by your own admisson he almost succeeded once. This tells me that even after you were hyper aware it almost happened again. There's too much of a risk here IMO. There's just no way that ANY parent can watch their children 100% of the time ALL the time. It's not that you couldn't do it, it's just that it's darn near impossible, especially w/someone actively working against you.

Plus, if BIL accidentally harmed your dd, not only would it be devastating for her but it would be emotionally devastating for him also. Not allowing any contact until he learns some things is to protect everyone, and is in no way discriminatory to him.

Maybe once your MIL talks to an expert when it comes to DS she can more fully understand the implications of not teaching BIL what he needs to know. Everyone can win in this situation if everyone gets on the same page.

BTW, I think you have done everything right so far and handled a truly difficult situation in a great way.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
I say this bc of your update where you said that after the incident, BIL continually tried to get your dd alone and by your own admisson he almost succeeded once. This tells me that even after you were hyper aware it almost happened again. There's too much of a risk here IMO. There's just no way that ANY parent can watch their children 100% of the time ALL the time. It's not that you couldn't do it, it's just that it's darn near impossible, especially w/someone actively working against you.

OP: Where is your dh in all of this? Is he helping you keep an eye on your dd, so that one of you is _always_ watching, or not? I think it's entirely feasible for two adults, between them, to watch one child 100% of the time, but it's a lot more challenging if it's just one parent. If you do "tag team" it, make _sure_ you actually, verbally, pass off the responsibility of watching her each time. I'd say about 90% of the times I've heard of a child slipping off (and it applies with my own kids) have been when each parent thought the other one had him/her.

Just my thoughts. I'm definitely in the "don't cut off contact if you don't absolutely have to do so" camp. For one thing, if you do, it's not unlikely that your dd will end up feeling responsible for that. Avoiding sexual abuse, only to load her up with a bunch of random guilt, seems counter-productive to me.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:

My concern with the first camp is: isn't this discriminatory? If BIL is acting within "normal limits" for DS and is simply lacking guidance, don't we owe it to everyone to make that effort? (I guess the answer here depends in part on whether this behavior is actually considered "normal," if undesirable, by DS standards.)
To assume he has problems in this area because some people with DS do when he had not shown signs of trouble would be discriminatory. To respond to an actual experience and actual threat in a way that keeps your dd safe is not.

Your first responsibility is to your daughter, not to your BIL, regardless of what he's dealing with.

I would not at all have him stay in your house or stay in his house. If you are able to keep up contact with him, you need to ensure that he is not alone with her, but also not touching her inappropriately under the guise of play or affection, and not talking inappropriately with her, etc. And it isn't fair to teach her what to do and place that responsibility on her shoulders. She's just a little girl.

I guess the short of it is that she will be just as hurt by being violated if he has DS as if he didn't.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

Can I clarify that by of an age to be partly responsible for her own safety I was talking about puberty and early adulthood, not 6 or 7.


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## mclisa (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
While some of it might be natural curiosity ; ie, no big deal... .

I can see natural curiosity when it is a bunch of preschoolers, but not with an age difference like this.

MIL needs to figure this out because he is almost 18. Even if he is "innocently" looking, there could be serious (jail time/registered sex offender) consequences.

I don't think you have to cut off contact with him. I think you should cut out contact of your dd with him. Your husband could still have a good relationship with him. You could still be in contact with him over email or the phone.

I understand where you are coming from. DH has a cousin who is in his 40's. He is delayed. We don't trust him with our kids. Nothing you can put your finger on, but is just how he plays with them. He just doesn't get it when they don't want to be tickled or talked to anymore. They are never alone with him. His sister tries to keep him reigned in and you can tell that she is uncomfortable with him being around our girls. I think I picked up that vibe.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

I read through the responses and also want to emphasize that your responses were absolutely perfect. Your PRIMARY responsibility is to your child, and to manage your emotions/thoughts/actions/empathy about your BIL second.

I had an uncle with a genetic abnormality that led to DS-like behaviours, that included stunted psychological development - he acted like a 8-10 yr old, even in his 50s. He'd often run away, steal, get into trouble, but in the same 'innocent' way a child would. He did mature sexually, and we were always admonished to never be around him alone, and that was enforced with the watchful eye of our grandmother. He *did* try to express himself sexually - exposing himself, talk. In the end, my grandmother took him to day groups with other delayed adults, and they dated, had dances, etc. A safe outlet.

Absolutely focus on your daughter's safety first. This is paramount. It is unfortunate that his DS makes it hard to understand boundaries, but he is an male adult with male adult urges.

Good luck.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
WRT BIL - he isn't a predator. Or he is, but only in the way a toddler or child could be seen to be one - you told him not to do something, he tried repeatedly to do it. I have a 3 year old here who cannot STOP trying to climb up to the cookies and the more she hears "no" the more she schemes to get to them. Because of your boundaries you have a big flashing "OMG NO!!!" alarm when it comes to sexual contact - he doesn't. He really really doesn't. He has the body of an adult man, but it's very likely he feels he's playing with an equal when he's with your DD. I think it might be helpful for you to regard him as a young child in these matters - NOT in terms of the harm he could do, but in terms of the depth of his intentions. I agree with PP's - he needs proper structured help with this. He may well never "get" boundaries of this nature, someone (preferably someone with knowledge and experience) needs to TEACH him about it all. This is a relatively normal thing for DS people to begin going through in their late teens, but he obviously needs guidance, asap, before it has an even bigger impact on his life.

WRT your DD. I think you did beautifully. Continue to be vigilant. Keep her with you or your DH at all times. Trust your instincts. Do not be afraid to insist that BIL begins getting the help he needs before you will have him around your DD again. Stress that you realise it isn't his fault, but also that you WILL be protecting your child, however necessary, and they need to get on board.









:

I have worked with adults with different disabilities. You can't view BIL as an adult. If I were in your shoes I would keep things the same as they have been with visits and so forth. Make sure that your dd is with you (or dh) at all times during visits. If it makes you feel safer get a portable alarm for your door while you sleep. Please don't exclude BIL. His disability and upbringing aren't his fault. I think you can absolutely keep your dd safe, while allowing her uncle to be a part of her life. Keep having conversations with her about good/bad touch and give her some age appropriate guidance about her uncles disability.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

This will come off as offensive, but it's something the mother of a DS boy told me once. She was talking about exactly this situation (my sister worked with adults with challenging behaviour for many years so we knew a lot of families with disability and differences in them) and she said "at least when the dog was humping visitors legs we could have him neutered!".

That is really how it is. Her son had this urge which came out when he really liked someone and enjoyed their company, and he didn't get that it was innappropriate suddenly - he used to sit on aunty E's lap when he was little, why couldn't he do it now? And why did it make any difference if he put his hand down his pants? And why wouldn't SHE put her hand down his pants when it feels so happy to do that...? This mother was getting to the end of her rope with it. It took nearly 6 years of buddy-work, reminders and drilling but EVENTUALLY he got it. The hardest thing is showing someone like that the consequences - eventually his buddy got him, after a close-miss incident with a much younger physically but emotionally equal playmate - photos of little kids crying. He was really really distressed by those images, to know that the game he wanted to play when he had loving feelings towards someone could actually hurt them so badly, but it helped him to get why it was so important he remember not to play these games.

I want to repeat what i said before - it is OK to set the boundaries yourself. So no visits, but insist on and even attempt to access for them, help. Or visits but no overnights. Or whatever you feel ok with and about. The main problem here seems to be that everyone related to BIL sees him as the sweet little DS kid still and he's not, he's a young man. This is a bad situation for him - it would be terrible for you and for your DD if he raped her (and i speak as a victim of child sexual abuse, so don't feel i'm minimising!) but even if you keep her away, he could rape someone else. Potentially the stance you make now and the help he gets now could make the difference between him growing into a sensitive, sensible, loving DS adult and being institutionalised somewhere where he can't rape any more little kids. His parents seem to be dropping the ball a little just now, but this situation CAN be aided by you setting a few simple rules for your family visits (or lack of them if that's what you decide) and making a few enquiries on his behalf into the support you can get him and pushing his family to act.

He is really lucky to have you around, you are probably about to save him from what would be a personal hell (being a rapist without even knowing what that means, and then coming to know it). Good luck and kudos and warm thoughts to you.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

His disability and upbringing aren't his fault.
Doesn't make the damage he could do any less. It just doesn't matter if he has DS in this case and his upbringing is no excuse either. He is apparently a danger to young children and needs to be treated as such. Both for their sake and his.

He is lucky to have you and hopefully can get the direction he needs. I still would never trust him though.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I don't think anyone here who feels he isn't and cannot be treated as accountable for his behaviour in this situation is saying he is harmless or should be trusted. We are merely urging a balanced response rather than an hysterical one. In different ways both the OP's DD and BIL need help and protection here. Neglecting either one of them is going, long-term, to lead to hurts for someone.

No one is suggesting that his intentions (or lack of them) will mitigate in any way the potential harm he would cause if this behaviour is allowed to continue unchecked. One can definitely be empathic and helpful with a family in this situation without putting one's children in danger.


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I don't think anyone here who feels he isn't and cannot be treated as accountable for his behaviour in this situation is saying he is harmless or should be trusted. We are merely urging a balanced response rather than an hysterical one. In different ways both the OP's DD and BIL need help and protection here. Neglecting either one of them is going, long-term, to lead to hurts for someone.

No one is suggesting that his intentions (or lack of them) will mitigate in any way the potential harm he would cause if this behaviour is allowed to continue unchecked. One can definitely be empathic and helpful with a family in this situation without putting one's children in danger.

Well said.

OP, to get back to your two camps, my only beef with camp #1 is that it leaves not only your BIL, but any other children with whom he comes into contact in a bad situation.

This is nothing to be ashamed of, and both your MIL and BIL need help in understanding what's going on. For BIL's sake, for his family's sake, and for the sake of anyone with whom he comes into contact, this needs to be dealt with and dealt with NOW.

I couldn't in good conscience cut BIL off without trying to get him the help he needs, because he may not hurt your daughter, but he may hurt someone else's down the road. These boundary issues need to be taught to him, and sooner is much better than after something has happened.

You making a stand to your MIL and helping her get the tools she needs to deal with this issue is FAR more productive than cutting them off and not visiting. If not visiting for a bit is part of the process, then fine. The concern should be getting your BIL help, and that not only doesn't have to involve danger to your daughter, but will be better for both of them in the long run.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
Well said.

OP, to get back to your two camps, my only beef with camp #1 is that it leaves not only your BIL, but any other children with whom he comes into contact in a bad situation.

You aren't fairly characterizing those of us in camp #1. As I said:

Quote:

She needs to know the truth for the sake of other children as well. She must have anticipated that as he become sexual in an adult way that there was potential for this? I would definitely tell her no matter how hard it is, and it's too bad that they cant' visit, but you can't bring someone who has proven himself to be unsafe into your daughter's home to victimize her.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

I hope I didn't unwittingly turn this into a battle with my "two camps" language. I was just trying to clarify/confirm what I thought I was hearing.

Nobody has to duke this one out or decide for us. The input so far has given us a lot to work with and talk about.

I haven't talked to my dh about this yet (I mean, not about the ideas in this thread; obviously, we've talked about the issue in general), but I'd hazard a guess that completely cutting off contact would be the last thing (well, the second-to-last thing) he would want. I could be wrong. But operating on that assumption, continuing to hear ideas of how to navigate the situation without ceasing all visits would be very helpful.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Are they too far away for you to not stay but to arrange days out?

Just as a little kid can be distracted from unwanted behaviour, so can a DS adult. If you can meet up for a theme park, fete, or similar exciting activity which is naturally well-supervised (i.e. you'd NEVER let the kids or BIL go off on their own at the fete anyway, so supervising all the time won't feel so strenuous) he won't be thinking of deviousness, because he'll be active and having fun.

I would also be prepared to get the wheels of assistance for BIL in motion and then re-examine how you feel about visits. "No visits until this situation is being addressed" is not the same as "no more visits ever!".

Think of the ways BIL and you guys can still have contact - telephone? Webcam? Posting of cards/little gifts? You can certainly stay in his life AND keep out of his immediate vicinity until this is being addressed.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

My brother had a brain injury which is different from DS but a lot of the end results were the same. My brother tried repeatedly to rape me throughout my late childhood and into early adolescence. It was incredibly traumatic and damaging. My mother felt she had to continue to allow the relationship because after all--we were siblings. (He lived away from home in a group care facility.)

You are not discriminating against your BIL if you are reacting to things he has actually done. That's not prejudice, that's logic. I would encourage you to at least take a break for a while. Encourage your MIL to get some help with training her son towards more appropriate behavior. I'm not saying you have to sever the relationship forever, but how would you live with yourself if you slipped up once and something happened? That's not a far-fetched possibility. That very nearly happened but for your good reaction time.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I am not in either of the camps you identified.

Here is where I am coming from. Many years ago I became "mother" (foster mother in a placement designed to be "permanent") to a child with multiple disabilities including a cognitive disability and several behavioral and emotional disorders. He was also "sexually reactive," which is the term used for a minor who has a history that makes them act out sexually...after someone becomes an adult, if they act out sexually, they are in a legal sense a predator or an abuser...the only person for whom "motive" is relevant is a treating therapist. Anyway, part of my agreement in becoming his parent was line-of-sight supervision at all times. Parenting him required exhausting vigilance, and an ability to try to keep things as normal as possible for him while silmultaneously having an acute awareness of all things at all times.

My brother-in-law (dw's brother) and his wife (our sister-in-law), who were are only family in the area, without knowing any of dfs' history, met our dfs once and got uncomfortable with his look (saw him as a potential perv immediately without any obvious signs) and walked right out of our lives.

We lost all contact with BIL and SIL's three children at that time, and it was incredibly, incredibly painful. Without sharing any of dfs' story, we told them we would have dfs in line-of-sight at all times, and that they were free to do so with their own children as well, and that we could get together at restaurants, etc. and not at one another's homes. But they did not care. Even with four adults (them and us) on total alert in public places, they didn't feel safe. And dfs had done *nothing,* I mean *nothing* to them or their children. He had met them once and spent all of ten minutes in their house.

So I am sensitive to the need to account for the humanity of people with disabilities who have struggles in this area. I am sensitive to how hard this must be for your MIL. And I am very aware of your BIL's human dignity.

That said, I don't think your BIL is served in any way, shape, or form by people infantalizing him (especially given how "high functioning" he is) and making excuses rather than holding him accountable.

He can learn. He can mature. That is a capacity of all human beings no matter their starting abilities. It made me insane when people didn't account for dfs' special needs and work to guide him, but it made me equally insane when people didn't have high expectations of him. Nothing held him back more than the low expectations people had.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
WRT BIL - he isn't a predator. Or he is, but only in the way a toddler or child could be seen to be one - you told him not to do something, he tried repeatedly to do it. I have a 3 year old here who cannot STOP trying to climb up to the cookies and the more she hears "no" the more she schemes to get to them.

Infantalizing this near-adult does nothing but harm. It sets him up for near certain failure. And at what cost? He was preparing to sexually abuse this child. How long will it be before he finds a child with whom he *can* be alone?

Quote:

Because of your boundaries you have a big flashing "OMG NO!!!" alarm when it comes to sexual contact - he doesn't. He really really doesn't.
How could anyone online here possibly know that? It *is* discrimination to act based on the notion that if you have met one person with the disability, you have met them all.

This is a human being, not a disability. We don't know any more about him than what was posted, and we certainly can't see into his brain and decipher the nuances from these posts.

Despite severe cognitive delays, my dfs _did_ know his impulses were wrong. He could even tell you why if pushed in therapy (heck, even now my three and four year olds could tell you exactly who is allowed to touch whose privates and in what circumstances, and the basic reasons why). dfs' issues were around impulse control. His job was to learn to control his impulses, and everyone else's job was to teach him in part by _holding him to that standard_. And until he could learn to control himself, our job as his parents so long as he was a minor in our home, was to make sure he never, ever had the chance to harm someone.

Quote:

He has the body of an adult man, but it's very likely he feels he's playing with an equal when he's with your DD.
This is the part of this particular post where I start agreeing with the pp.

Actually, some therapists who treat adults who sexually abuse children say that this is true for most who sexually abuse. Often, people who sexually abuse children don't differentiate between themselves and the child, between their needs and the child's needs. They tend to relate to younger people on more of a peer-to-peer level. The door that closes for the rest of us as we get older, that door that sets us apart from younger people and prevents sexual interest in younger people doesn't close for people who abuse.

That's why the rest of us need to set those boundaries in a major way and then hold folks accountable to them. "[dd] is four. You are seventeen. Seventeen year olds should never do anything sexual with four year olds. Seventeen year olds should be with people their own age. Who are some people your own age?"

If he gets in trouble legally because he actually succeeds in harming a child in this way, he can still go to jail for it, he can still be forced to register as a sexual offender.

Here are my other thoughts, from the perspective of what I would be thinking if this was my dd...

Number 1: Every child has a right not to be put in knowing contact with someone who has tried to abuse them.

Number 2: Even if you are able to supervise and keep your dd from harm, you are exposing her to someone who tried to abuse her.

Number 3: Your dd should never, ever be alone with your BIL, just as you've always known. You are not discriminating, you are responding to an actual event that actually occurred.

Number 4: I would be much more comfortable about the situation if MIL took it seriously and was willing to get a team involved in helping to teach your BIL appropriate behavior. Even so, I'd never let dd alone with him nor would I let MIL supervise.

Number 5: If FIL has issues and BIL idolizes him, chances are, BIL has the same issues. That alone makes me especially uncomfortable about this situation.

I'll also second these posts:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Child sexual abuse is so serious and has such devestating consequences for all involved that I could not allow this relationship to continue if I were in your shoes.


Quote:

I would not at all have him stay in your house or stay in his house. If you are able to keep up contact with him, you need to ensure that he is not alone with her, but also not touching her inappropriately under the guise of play or affection, and not talking inappropriately with her, etc. And it isn't fair to teach her what to do and place that responsibility on her shoulders. She's just a little girl.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cetan Luta* 
I personally would not be able to deal with the only thing keeping my daughter safe being me not having my back turned for even a second. Too much risk and guilt for me. If BIL is still actively trying to sneak DD off by himself, I would not allow them to be around each other. To me, no amount of affectionate relationship is worth the damages of sexual abuse.

And I would say that there is often affection between abusers and the children they abuse. Abusers can easily be the most beloved soccer coach in town, the teacher every child thinks is the coolest, the dad whose children adore him...etc.

In the end, I would have your husband have a long heart-to-heart with his mother insisting that BIL needs explicit instructions about sexual development and appropriate sexual behavior. In fact, beyond instructions, if you feel confident he knew what he did was wrong, I would insist that he enters treatment. He could really benefit from that.

I would speak with BIL and make clear boundaries and set basic rules. No hugs, kissing, or lap sitting. Handshakes and hive fives okay if your dd wants to do it. That kind of thing.

I would visit infrequently and cut the length of visits even if they do live far away and travel is long. I would stay in a hotel and I would not do things that involved hanging out at MIL's house. I would make sure that we eat out as much as possible and that we went to museums, etc. during the day. I would encourage your husband to really buddy up with BIL, be a pal to BIL so that BIL's focus was redirected off dd and onto the two of them. I would likewise keep dd occuppied and engaged with other stuff so that visiting didn't inherently encompass a lot of contact with BIL.

I would reassure dd that I would keep her safe. I would be honest with her about BIL's disabilities, and their nature, but I would be very careful not to make her feel responsible for keeping herself safe with him. And I wouldn't do visits at all if I had any inkling dd was uncomfortable with visiting BIL.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
His disability and upbringing aren't his fault.

This is true but eventually his behavior becomes his fault. If you lay out the rules and reaffirm boundaries, you've done your part. If he can't follow the rules, then he can't be around your dd.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

P.S. That sneaky, devious behavior you describe as his "M.O." is a huuuuuge issue.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

His disability and upbringing aren't this little girls' fault either. She shouldn't have to pay this huge price for people not wanting to hurt his feelings because he's disabled.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
His disability and upbringing aren't this little girls' fault either. She shouldn't have to pay this huge price for people not wanting to hurt his feelings because he's disabled.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
To assume he has problems in this area because some people with DS do when he had not shown signs of trouble would be discriminatory. To respond to an actual experience and actual threat in a way that keeps your dd safe is not.

Your first responsibility is to your daughter, not to your BIL, regardless of what he's dealing with.

I would not at all have him stay in your house or stay in his house. If you are able to keep up contact with him, you need to ensure that he is not alone with her, but also not touching her inappropriately under the guise of play or affection, and not talking inappropriately with her, etc. And it isn't fair to teach her what to do and place that responsibility on her shoulders. She's just a little girl.

I guess the short of it is that she will be just as hurt by being violated if he has DS as if he didn't.

I agree with this, and with the idea of a hotel stay when you go to the area, if you choose to go. Being in the house 24/7 would be just too much of an opportunity - and too stressful for you, especially as she quite naturally gets more independent.

Being abused by someone you love and those around you love is a horrible double bind. It is a very big head game.

When you are sad about severing the relationship (and I'm not sure it has to be completely cut, because I don't know the people involved, but I do think you MUST protect your daughter and given that other people have their blinders on, I suspect it will go down that way), just remember that it's not a good relationship if someone is going to be molested. It's just not.


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## Oubliette8 (Apr 15, 2009)

Maybe it would be helpful if your husband had a talk with your MIL, not only about getting BIL some help in this area, but also about the potential consequences if she does not. If he makes inappropriate sexual advances towards ANYONE, not just a child, he could potentially be charged as a sexual offender. Having a disability does not stop him from getting sent to prison, regardless of if he was aware his actions were wrong or not. Even if he doesn't go to prison, they could remove him from her care and place him in a state run facility. Neither are likely to be situations that she would want BIL to be in. Since her focus does not seem to be on the people whom he could harm, but rather on BIL, I would point out I point out the very serious ramifications for your BIL if he does not get appropriate help.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
My brother had a brain injury which is different from DS but a lot of the end results were the same. My brother tried repeatedly to rape me throughout my late childhood and into early adolescence. It was incredibly traumatic and damaging. My mother felt she had to continue to allow the relationship because after all--we were siblings. (He lived away from home in a group care facility.)

I'm not dismissing this _at all_, but how did he repeatedly try to rape you? Was he not being supervised by your mom? There's a big difference between allowing a relationship, and allowing a relationship _without supervision_.


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## jenners26 (Mar 16, 2008)

I haven't read through all of the responses, but I feel a need to reply. I am in your exact situation. Except, the boy is my brother and he's 19, not 17.

Clearly, I don't have the whole picture, so I'm probably going to be making a few assumptions, but bear with me...

My brother S has Downs. He is 19, but functions on about a 6-7 year old level for most things, a few things he's a little higher...maybe a 8 or a 9 year old. I'm 9 years older than him, so I was married and had kids while he was still very young. S began hitting puberty about 9-10 year old. Sadly, while delayed in nearly all other areas, it's not uncommon for a child with Downs to enter puberty earlier than 'normal.'

Despite being told from very early on to treat him as you would any child, my mother has not done that. At 19 she still fixes his plate for him, cuts his food, etc. She is convinced he is not capable of doing these things, even though it's clear to the rest of us he could. Sadly, this need to 'baby him' transferred over into sexuality issues when S hit puberty. She didn't have the "birds and the bees" talk with him. She would tell him to stop, but not explain why, or give him an alternative when he would 'hump' his stuffed animals in the living room while watching t.v. She's also very religious, so she considers masturbation sinful, so while saying, "that's something you should do in private" probably would have helped a lot, she would simply tell him to stop.

This has led to an overly sexual teenager. When I was pregnant with my first son, he came up and hugged me and kissed me on my breast. I yelled at him, and pushed him back, and my mother yelled at ME for getting upset with him. She has this deep-seeded need to protect his feelings from everyone, even when he is seriously in the wrong.

It's well known within my family (aside from my mother) that he has problems with boundaries. He's affectionate to a fault; hugs too long, kisses too much, stares inappropriately, etc. He's also aware enough to know my mother will let him get away with things, and will be sneaky and manipulative. HOWEVER...He is NOT being sneaky because he is a predator. He's being sneaky because he simply views these behaviors as something he KNOWS is wrong, but knows he can get away with, NOT because he's trying to get my child alone so he can molest him. Think of it as a 'normal' child sneaking into an R rated movie, or eating the entire package of cookies and lying about it. He knows it's wrong...but he doesn't equate it as being any MORE wrong than something like that. We had an incident a few months ago, similar to what you went through, except it was my oldest son. They got out of our site for 2 minutes, and my husband found S and my son in the bedroom, and my son had his pajama pants off. He was sitting in one chair, and S was sitting in another, and my son was adament that nothing had happened. But...it was enough to shake me to my core. I had a frank discussion with my mother, but it changed nothing.

So, we've had to take protective measures. I have explained to my oldest, in very clear language that he is NOT to be alone with S. We make sure that someone is in the room with S all the time. I make sure I change my toddlers diapers in a different room. Tickling is off limits, as is sitting on S's lap. My job is to protect my kids, and while I won't cut him off, I am on high alert when he is around my children. I've also made sure that they know to be very loud and vocal if S begins to make them uncomfortable.

Anyway...Sorry to have rambled for so long. I just know exactly how you're feeling. Even though I'm positive nothing happened, I felt shell-shocked and terrified at how close it may have come to happening. It's scary, and makes you feel powerless. I'm terribly sorry that you're going through this, and that your daughter experienced what she did. If you want to PM me, you're welcome to. It's something we've been dealing with for several years now.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

The fact that he has enough awareness of the inappropriate behavior to initiate it behind closed doors, alone with the OP's child, is predatory behavior, regardless of the age of the person in question.

I hope you and your DH are able to have a straightforward conversation with your BIL's caretakers regarding this behavior, in order to protect other children.

He's not a monster because he has DS. But he's not NOT a monster because he has DS either. The concerning behavior is irrelevant to the DS dx, and as a legal adult he can and will be held accountable if it continues.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

I continue to feel so glad I posted, and I'm not sure why I ever hesitated.









Jen and Sierra, your posts, coming from places pf experience and understanding, are unbelievably helpful. I feel like I hit the jackpot. Thank you so, so much for taking the time.

Jen, there is a huge amount of resonance for me in what you wrote, right down to MIL's attitude (though there are some differences) and your brother's response to it. All very familiar.

My dh and I are reading all the responses and will be sitting down together to have a big discussion in the next couple of days.

I think that, probably, what makes us both the most anxious is figuring out what to say to MIL. She and dh have a history of beating around the bush and struggling to communicate, even about lesser issues and lesser decisions. I'm speaking out of turn here, but I'm willing to bet that dh is pretty nervous about what to say, and how to say it.

But this thread has given us so much to work with, and will be a huge help when we sit down to figure all of that out.

Please keep the thoughts coming, if you have them!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm not dismissing this _at all_, but how did he repeatedly try to rape you? Was he not being supervised by your mom? There's a big difference between allowing a relationship, and allowing a relationship _without supervision_.

Because I lived in extreme poverty and when you live in extreme poverty there is not always the luxury of having an adult with free time to stand guard.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Because I lived in extreme poverty and when you live in extreme poverty there is not always the luxury of having an adult with free time to stand guard.

Just







for you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Because I lived in extreme poverty and when you live in extreme poverty there is not always the luxury of having an adult with free time to stand guard.

If you mom couldn't stand guard, then I can't even begin to imagine why she thought she should try to foster the relationship. I also don't see what this has to do with the OP, honestly. She's not in the position of choosing whether or not to let her BIL be _alone_ with her dd.









What a nightmarish situation. I'm so sorry.


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## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

Sending out














to all those who have personal experience with the pain of abuse. Your courageous willingness to speak out helps mamas like me to have the strength to do what is necessary to protect our children from this fate.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I have no advice, but wishing you the best. And job well done in looking out. Just the idea of being on such high alert during a family visit makes me feel stress.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If you mom couldn't stand guard, then I can't even begin to imagine why she thought she should try to foster the relationship. I also don't see what this has to do with the OP, honestly. She's not in the position of choosing whether or not to let her BIL be _alone_ with her dd.









What a nightmarish situation. I'm so sorry.

I waited a day to respond to this so that I could be polite. You are entitled to think that it doesn't apply, but your opinion is not the universal correct one. The OP thought she was ensuring that her daughter would never be alone with BIL and only managed to just barely arrive in time to stop something. When people believe that through simple vigilance they can completely protect their children I think they are praying for luck. There will always be moments when unprotected contact happens. That is life. You may believe that someone (any mother anywhere on the planet) can be 100% vigilant but I don't. We are humans.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

NM...this is just not going to come out right.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I coach for Special Olympics.
I bring my 5 and 7 year old daughters. My 7yo speaks up when she feels uncomfortable. She has that personality. My yo doesn't. One of the athletes who has DS asked A to sit on his lap. She said no thank you. He then asked R to sit on his knee. She wandered over and I watched closely. He was just bouncing around. She looked uncomfortable so I asked her to come by me. On the ride home I asked how she felt about what happened. She said she didn't like it. It was a great opportunity for me to have a good talk with her. I explained to her that it is ok to say no. You can say No thank you in a nice way. If something makes you uncomfortable it is not rude to say no. The talk went more in depth and the next wk he asked her to sit on his knee again. I waited to see what her response would be. She said No thank you and moved closer to me. I was so proud of her for speaking up instead of being worried about hurting his feelings. I explained to her that if she ever feels uncomfortable around him or any of the other athletes she can blink in a certain way and I will help her out of the situation without embarrassing her. I would never allow my children alone with them. I do not turn my back at all unless they are safely on the other side of me. That one athlete is inappropriate with them but doesn't understand. The other athletes that have DS have told him to stop because it is not ok. So I think it depends on their level of understanding. He says thinks like he loves her. I explain on the way home that he is different and why he is different. She is learning a lot through this. She is learning to stand up for herself with the comfort of mom being there. She is learning about people with disabilities. I always give her the choice whether she wants to go or not. She always wants to come and play so I allow it. It is funny because me other daughter has no problem saying Not a chance. lol.
If I were you, I would still visit but ALWAYS be right there because your BIL does not understand proper boundaries. I would also explain this somewhat to your daughter and equip her with the right words and actions if a situation arises.


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