# SID and other disorders-- hoping not to offend...



## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

It seems I may be one of the resident non-parents here, and I always have plenty of questions...

Now for something... philosophical, I guess, in that it's not situation-specific. I hope that I can express myself in the best possible way, as I do not want to offend...

I am very familiar with both learning disabilities and other mental disorders. I had undiagnosed ADD for many years, and although I do think it may be overdiagnosed nowadays, I am absolutely certain that it exists, and that I have it. A pretty classic case, actually-- the only exception being that I have other abilities (excellent memory, etc.) that partly compensated for it.

My brother has CAPD, also a pretty classic case. Plenty of people in my family have struggled with mood disorders of varying degrees, including myself.

So I do believe that these things exist, and that they are not excuses. Of course, I also believe very strongly that they shouldn't be used AS excuses, either. The knowledge that one has a disorder should be used to inform how one treats it, deals with certain situations, etc., but not used as an EXCUSE, per se...

IOW, in my eyes:

Appropriate: Child has ADHD, so we take him to activities where he doesn't have to sit still for long periods of time, understand that he tends to get bored easily, help direct him in new ways to increase his attention span, direct him towards activities that reward intuition and creativity, etc.

Inappropriate: Child has ADHD, so we take him to an opera, and let him run around, because he has ADHD! He can't be expected to sit down the whole time, and he should still be able to enjoy the opera, since he loves listening to opera music at home while he plays. Anyone who doesn't like that we let him run around just doesn't understand ADHD and is simply intolerant!

Which gets me to my point/question...

As much as I am becoming a convert to GD, I am a bit uneasy with the many children I see here that are described as having SID, something on the autism spectrum, ODD, CAPD, ADD/ADHD, etc.

I "get" the "spirited child" thing-- it's just a way of describing one's child on a relative scale of behavior and tendencies... And it would make sense that a discipline board of any kind would attract more parents of "spirited children" than the more mellow type.

But all the diagnoses... Make me a bit uneasy?

That is, on the one hand, I tend to explain things (at least TENDENCIES) by the mental issues someone has, rather than judging them generally as "good" or "bad." That doesn't mean I hang out with someone who puts me down because I know he or she has, say Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or some such-- just that I "understand" to some extent why he or she acts that way. It works, in a sense, with my Christian background ("judge not that ye be not judged.")

OTOH, I am wary of psychologically diagnosing everyone and everything, lest those things BECOME excuses.

I am able to see through the viewpoint among some in the "mainstream" that says: "ADD, my a$$! In my day, we were expected to behave no matter what! All these parents are just making excuses for these kids. ADD? More like a case of L.A.Z.Y.!"

I KNOW that's, ahem, B.S. :LOL

But I do get a little antsy when I think about it.

I mean, maybe there are SID issues for some kids, but maybe they can be mitigated with solutions that are not necessarily "SID solutions." Maybe we would sometimes do better NOT to focus on what our kids have in terms of disorders, as they are clearly not just a sum of disorders!

I have the feeling that many of you feel this way, and that GD-- just like Christianity, for example-- is unfortunately often bastardized by (often well-meaning) folks who just don't want to discipline at all, or acknowledge the significance of nuture in addition to nature.

Hmmmmm.....

If anyone wants to comment, I'm all ears (eyes)!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

But all the diagnoses... Make me a bit uneasy?
Well, maybe everyone should just come to you to okay any diagnosis given by a health professional.

When someone prefaces a statement by stating that they "hope they don't want to offend", you can be sure they are gearing up to say something offensive. I'm offended by your entire post. None of my children are special needs-- no ADD, SID, autism. I'm curious as to why you feel like you can just come here, as someone who is not even a parent, and make sweeping generalizations about the women who ARE mothers who post on this board about THEIR OWN children, like you have some special insight or information that they don't.

I don't get the point of your post at all, unless it is to second guess the mothers here who are, for the most part, just trying to do the best they can for their children.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have no idea what SID is. I even googled. Please define "SID". Thanks.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
I have no idea what SID is. I even googled. Please define "SID". Thanks.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ion%20disorder


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Not having read the other responses yet . . .

Your examples are very true about what to do and not to do. However SID is a neurological problem, not a personality problem. I have two kids with SID: one is very spirited and high needs, and one is actually quite mellow. More like quietly stubborn.

They were dx by OT's. My first dd had a child psychologist and 3 OT's look at her and they all came to the same conclusion. They couldn't just be making that up. Her preschool teacher (when she was in school) approached me and had concerns about odd behaviors without me telling her anything. This is a teacher who sees a lot of kids and has experience on what is normal and not normal.

My baby was dx at 6 mos. old by an OT and redx at 10 mos by another OT to get qualified for state services. She recieved therapy and it helped her a *lot*. Especially brush therapy, which wouldn't do anything for a normal baby, even a spirited one.

Both girls had/have reflux, gag issues, feeding problems. Nitara tended to avoid stimuli. Abi craved it. Two spectrums within SID. Both are outgrowing it, as their father did (he also had sensory issues, reflux, and severe eating/gagging problems).

Even with their issues, there is certain behavior that is and is not acceptable. If the situation is not a good fit, we don't go. It's somewhat isolating but the alternative is going and making myself and others uncomfortable.

Abi is much, much better the older she gets but still has some SID-dy stuff that she does. Nitara still does not eat by mouth and gags and vomits a lot but is also getting better very slowly.

I agree that we should focus on them as people, not as disorders. They may have special needs and I need to realize that and plan accordingly.

I don't use their dx to make excuses for them or use that as an excuse for myself to not bother parenting them and teaching them right from wrong. On the contrary, most parents whose kids are dx with something were concerned enough to seek out help in the first place.

Parenting a child who is not exactly normal and average is very hard work and it takes 10 times the effort to teach Abi to share and have compassion, etc. that it might take the parents of a child without issues. I often laugh inside at some of the suggestions made her by parents in response to a question about discipline and child behavior because Abi would not have responded well to anything. I read so many discipline/childrearing books including AP ones and nothing much worked for her. She just didn't "get it" when I used the suggestions in the books or else she just didn't care, if she did get it. I had to find my own methods that worked just for her. That is very hard work. I'm always on my toes with her.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

:

My son also has gagging and other eating related issues (although not so much as Nitara)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ion%20disorder

Thanks. I'd answer yes to 6 of the things on that checklist, which is only a little over half, so I don't think my daughter has that.

In response to the OP, I think that what's happend is that issues that have always existed have been given names so that parents can find a way to help their kids. So kids have always had the traits that now lead to different diagnoses, but no diagnoses were available in the past -- parents just worked with the hand they were dealt without help, and perhaps mislabeled and responded inappropriately to problems as a result. Now that these problems have been given a name, parents are able to find help.

I'm not a psychologist or doctor so I have no way of knowing whether things like SID, ADHD, etc., are over-diagnosed, under-diagnosed, or diagnosed just about the right amount of the time. What leads you (OP) to believe they are over-diagnosed?


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

I think one of the main problems with comparing 'today's kids' with "when we were kids" is that we don't really remember things accuratly. We tend to romanticize the past a bit.

I know there are times (pre-parenting) where I would say "I can't beleive those parents let them get away with that...I would have NEVER been allowed to act that way!" My mom, however, pointed out that I DID act that way...I might have been in trouble for it, but I certainly did act like that. Kids don't change. Plus, I think there was more acceptance, to some degree, of kids being kids...they are loud, they are dirty, they don't get social graces. There used to be more of a seperation of 'kid places' and 'adult places', so you didn't see kids running around at the opera (to use your example), but you certainly saw kids running around in diapers/undies in a perpetual state of dirty running around in back yards. If you look back culturally to 'the little rascals" you can see that there was more of a 'kid's world' and an 'adult world'. Kids acted the same way, they just weren't in situations where they were expected to act like little adults as often.

Also, back then, people didn't have dxs. Everybody knew of 'quirky' kids and it was just a part of life. They weren't seperated out quite like they are today. There were no special ed classes, but I think people were just more accepting of 'they are just different...everybody is different'.

I have always found it interesting, when dealing with my child and his personality, that the oldest generation is the one who is most accepting of him. They didn't grow up in an age where there was a defined 'normal' that had been studied, researched, and laid out on a nice little chart. Where a younger parent is going to jump to "has he been evaluated for ______", an older parent/grandparent/great-grandparent is more likely to just say "oh, he reminds me of _____. He will be just fine...let him be a kid" and think our obsession with labels doesn't make a lick of difference of who our children are as people.

I hope at least some of that made sense. I am fuzzy headed, so I am finding it hard to communicate my ideas of late.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

this might be a serial post, but I read some of the other responses and wanted to add this:

I think how you deal with children that are different in the past (pre-dx era) has a lot to do with the community and family dynamics. In a small close-knit community, there tended to be more of a 'village to raise a child' type interaction. Therefore, even if mom & dad were struggling with how to deal with their child, it was likely that another person had ideas that would work better. Today we have taken that general air of helpfulness and institutionalized it.

I think child-raising has changed fundamentally from "we are all raising the future generation" to "my child is better than your child". It has gone from a community effort to a competion. That changes both how you give advice and how you receive help. It also changes how you perceive your childs behavior.

To illustrate this...have you ever noticed how many tentative posts there are along the lines of "does your kid do this too?" and the relief when people find out it is not whacked-out behavior? Instead of just enjoying their quirks, we are embarrasssed by them. (I am as guilty as anybody, so I am not critisizing.) Because we are embarassed by them, we are less likely to talk to people IRL for fear that they will think our child is a freak, which perpetuates the mystification of child behavior and further re-enforces the competition to have the 'best' child.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Well, maybe everyone should just come to you to okay any diagnosis given by a health professional.

When someone prefaces a statement by stating that they "hope they don't want to offend", you can be sure they are gearing up to say something offensive. I'm offended by your entire post. None of my children are special needs-- no ADD, SID, autism. I'm curious as to why you feel like you can just come here, as someone who is not even a parent, and make sweeping generalizations about the women who ARE mothers who post on this board about THEIR OWN children, like you have some special insight or information that they don't.

I don't get the point of your post at all, unless it is to second guess the mothers here who are, for the most part, just trying to do the best they can for their children.

Wow.

Well... No. I certainly *don't* want any woman to second-guess herself or her child's diagnosis, especially if it was made by a professional.

I know that when someone says "I don't want to offend, but," they usually *are* offensive, but I don't know... I wasn't accusing anyone here of anything. Just trying to work through my impressions, trying to... understand the balance that is so difficult to achieve-- between acknowledging a disorder and using it as an excuse, YKWIM? I imagine it is a fine line, and one that *I*, though I don't have children, walk WRT *myself*.

That is, even if one never uses a disorder as an excuse, how is that best communicated to those who believe it *is* an excuse? I know that you can't worry about what everyone else thinks, but how do you communicate this kind of thing effectively?

I am surprised that you found my entire post offensive. And saddened.

I don't really get it. I understand that this is a very sensitive topic... At the same time...

Let me address your post:

_Well, maybe everyone should just come to you to okay any diagnosis given by a health professional._

Absolutely not. In no way did I ever claim that any child's diagnosis was incorrect. In fact, I strongly lean towards the opposite assumption.

_None of my children are special needs-- no ADD, SID, autism._

Then I definitely was in no way referring to your children, although I might have imagined you'd have some broader insight. I never once said that there was an overwhelming presence of these diagnoses on this board. Just that I saw a lot of them, which got me thinking about the issues involved...

_I'm curious as to why you feel like you can just come here, as someone who is not even a parent...
_

I did not believe that I was judging anyone in any way, so I am not sure that not being a parent precludes me from bringing the topic up. What if I had a two-week-old? While my perspective would, I'm sure, be different, would I really be that much more qualified to voice my concerns? What if I had three children, spanked them, and claimed that my parenthood entitled me to promote the joys of spanking? If I were being horribly judgemental, I could understand your objection to my not being a parent. After all, I don't really know what it's like. But as it stands, I still don't get it.

In any event, I am interested in this topic because I want to be prepared *before* I am a parent. I would think that (as long as I was not really *judging* anyone negatively for her choices) would be encouraged.

_...and make sweeping generalizations about the women who ARE mothers who post on this board about THEIR OWN children...
_

I see no place in my OP where I made sweeping generalizations. Please indicate to what you are referring.

_like you have some special insight or information that they don't._

Perhaps, at times, I *do* or *will* have "some special insight"-- after all, I am a capable human being, and I once was a child myself. Don't you sometimes have "special insights" that other moms might not have?

Regardless, that's not how I meant my OP, in *any* way. I wasn't trying to impart my "wisdom" to anyone-- just to express my slightly conflicted feelings, and ask for general thoughts on a topic.

As for my OP, I... I think that it does make sense that posters to any discipline board would tend to be self-selecting... That is, that it would make sense to see a higher-than-average proportion of kids with learning disorders and the like... Because they might be more likely to need "unconventional" solutions/discipline and because, if their parents have had them diagnosed with a specific disorder, that might indicate that their parents tend to be more involved in finding solutions, reading discipline books, visiting boards, etc.

Anyone?

Should I just leave the board? Is my presence doing more harm than good?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

As much as I am becoming a convert to GD, I am a bit uneasy with the many children I see here that are described as having SID, something on the autism spectrum, ODD, CAPD, ADD/ADHD, etc.

I "get" the "spirited child" thing-- it's just a way of describing one's child on a relative scale of behavior and tendencies... And it would make sense that a discipline board of any kind would attract more parents of "spirited children" than the more mellow type.

But all the diagnoses... Make me a bit uneasy?
This is a generalization. All the diagnoses... that is a generalization. You said this makes you "uneasy". This, specifically, is what my post is in response to.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

You say you're worried that a parents' concern or a dr's diagnosis of SID might become an 'excuse.' For running around during an opera? It seems like you are saying people here are not disciplining their children because they have the 'excuse' of SID. Is that correct?

I don't know any moms with SID or ADD (or Down's Syndrome for that matter) children that use their child's illness as an excuse for a lack of discipline. Of course there is a huge difference between seeking understanding as to why someone behaves in a particular way, and using that as an excuse for their behavior. So, curious as to why you seem to have made this leap.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:

I think one of the main problems with comparing 'today's kids' with "when we were kids" is that we don't really remember things accuratly. We tend to romanticize the past a bit.
Oh, I definitely agree with this!

I was on another board, and got into a bit of a debate with another childfree woman (about leaving loaded guns around the house where a four-year-old could get to them) wherein she claimed that EVERY SINGLE TIME her parents told her not to do something, she would unquestioningly obey. Even when she was a toddler. The first time, and every time.










Not possible. Now, she may have been very "obedient," but EVERY time? 100%?

She insisted. Which was her argument for keeping loaded guns lying around toddlers (I kid you not)... "If they know you're serious, they just won't do it, no matter what their age."

I said, look, regardless, with a gun, it only takes one time! We had to agree to disagree, but I wasn't sorry she was not having kids!








:

I appreciate everyone's insights. I hope that no one feels judged by me in any way. I totally understand that lots of things are "easy for me to say," which is why I try to be sensitive...

It's tough... I just want to work though as much of this (in a BASIC way) as I can before I have kids...


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
This is a generalization. All the diagnoses... that is a generalization. You said this makes you "uneasy". This, specifically, is what my post is in response to.

Perhaps I should be clearer. When I said "all the diagnoses," I meant "the many diagnoses," or "the number of diagnoses." As in: "look at all those horses!"

Not "all" as in "each and every diagnosis." (Not "look at every one of those horses!")

Does that make sense?

I meant that seeing so many diagnoses makes me a bit uneasy. That doesn't mean that ANY of them was an incorrect diagnosis. Just that it bothered me slightly, in a general way-- probably more b/c of "mainsteam" indoctrination than anything tangible... I was trying to figure out *why* that "bothered" me-- whether being "bothered" was legitimate or not.

And if that was what your post was in response to... You didn't discount everything else I said, because of that one ambiguously worded line, did you?


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
You say you're worried that a parents' concern or a dr's diagnosis of SID might become an 'excuse.' For running around during an opera? It seems like you are saying people here are not disciplining their children because they have the 'excuse' of SID. Is that correct?

I don't know any moms with SID or ADD (or Down's Syndrome for that matter) children that use their child's illness as an excuse for a lack of discipline. Of course there is a huge difference between seeking understanding as to why someone behaves in a particular way, and using that as an excuse for their behavior. So, curious as to why you seem to have made this leap.

No. To clarify... that one example was only WRT to ADD.

And no, I am not saying that *anyone* here is not disciplining because of the "excuse" of any disorder.

But I have seen that happen. Perhaps you have not.

As I'm sure you are aware, it becomes frustrating for proponents of GD (or parents of children with certain disorders) when other parents claim to be using GD, and are actually just being permissive, or parents of kids with certain disorders use them as excuses.

Also... I *haven't* made "that leap." From my own experience, having ADD, I obviously know that there is a difference between having a diagnosis and using it to improve my situation and using the diagnosis as an excuse.

I was just wondering, I guess, how one balances those issues... If it's just a different mindset, or what.

I am feeling a bit frustrated right now, since I'm not sure how my OP could have been much clearer. I put in so many disclaimers and thorough explanations that I hoped to leave nothing to speculation WRT this sensitive topic.

I know that if one is truly offensive, it doesn't matter how many disclaimers one uses-- i.e., "Well, I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black, my husband is black, I am an African American Studies major, etc.... But black people are just not as smart as white people, yadda yadda."

Now that's ridiculous, for many, many reasons. It doesn't matter how many disclaimers you put in there.

But I still don't see where I was offensive in this case.

Should I not have brought it up at all?


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
As I'm sure you are aware, it becomes frustrating for proponents of GD (or parents of children with certain disorders) when other parents claim to be using GD, and are actually just being permissive, or parents of kids with certain disorders use them as excuses.

I guess I don't understand. Why is it important to know whether a parent is using ADD as an excuse? I guess I just don't understand what you're trying to sort out.

What's 'permissive'? Wouldn't that judgement be dependent on not only the parenting style, but the child's (and parent's) temperment, and the particular situation? How do you know when a parent is 'using' a disorder as an excuse? Can you give an example?

There are, of course, lots of theories out there about why 'those other people' do GD; most GD parents have heard them all. They're lazy, they're making excuses for their child, they're weak-willed and wrong-headed momma's boys. So what? You do what you think is best for your child and ignore the thousands of others out there who will instantly give you far more than you wanted to know about their theory of child-raising the second you start to show.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I think I understand what the OP was talking about. I grew up in the eighties, when hyperactivity was the diagnosis of choice; and indeed, many kids fit the label.

But I distinctly remember being literally jumped--repeatedly-- by a kid named Brian at our home-- I screamed, he giggled, and his mother said something like, "You know he is hyperactive, don't you?"

What??? No pulling Brian out of a situation he obviously couldn't, for whatever reason, handle? My mama had to SEND that family home. And Brian's mama was upset by our lack of empathy.

Sigh.

I don't know. But yeah, I do understand what the OP is trying to say. Be gentle with her-- it's not an attack.

And the fact that someone doesn't have kids does not, IMHO, automatically negate their input.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Oh, I know what you're saying, chicagomom, re: unsolicited advice...

And I never assume I have all the facts. In fact, every time I see a child having a hard time, I think "bad day" or "something else is going on." Not "little brat!"

But...

Example: I was in a grocery store the other day, and a child of about 8 or 9 started browsing the donut section. He put his hands in every bin and picked through all the donuts-- licking his hands in between.

The mother saw me looking at him and said-- laughing-- "Oh, he's autistic. He likes to feel all of them."

I didn't know what to say-- my jaw was on the floor.

Now, I know that 99.9% of the women on this board would not behave like that. I don't imagine anyone here would use something like that as an excuse in such a situation. But that's a bit of an extreme... At some point, I guess you wonder, where do you draw the line? And that's a genuine question, not a conclusion. Do you draw a line? What matters? What doesn't? How does one come to those conclusions? Can one?

When I say "permissive," I don't mean "generally laid-back" or "GD," I mean it how it is usually defined-- no rules, no standards and NO discipline at all. Closer, IMO, to neglect than anything else.

It becomes frustrating when one is torn between "traditional" expectations of "obedience," for example, and knowing that it's less important how others view your child and your parenting than how well your parenting works for your child...

I just... don't want to swing to an extreme, in terms of diagnosing every behavior as part of a disorder. But that's because that's how *I* tend to think, not necessarily how anyone else here tends to think... *I* tend to, at times, lump certain issues into larger disorders-- not to make excuses, but... because it's easier for me to process that way? I don't know, and I'm not saying that's *bad*, but...

I'm still trying to figure this out...

Thanks, eightyft-- I guess it's just a difficult subject all-around. And what you describe is kinda what I'm getting at. That is, there's usually no point (except venting) in bringing up "abuses" of diagnoses or GD, since I am not accusing anyone here of those "abuses."

But how to reconcile in my own mind that I will be able to find the happy medium? How to address concerns (though we all know they may be ill-informed) of friends, family members, DH, etc., that I would be "coddling" my child, etc.? How to balance diagnoses and discipline?

That's what I'm wondering...


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

This is a touchy subject. I am the mother of three children with special needs, including autism, SID, and the other labels that the OP thinks are more common here than elsewhere. I will confess that few things irritate me quite so much as hearing references to how these things are overdiagnosed because of the battle we had to fight getting a diagnosis so we could help our children. That has been the experience of the other parents I know in real life -- getting someone to take our concerns seriously because no one wants be be accused of "overdiagnosing." I have never met anyone who was a victim of overdiagnosing -- only rumors on the Internet.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you why I am at MDC and the GD forum. One of the first things I read when we got the autism diagnosis was "forget about mainstream discipline practices -- they won't work with a child with autism" (paraphrasing). Since the advice in the mainstream parenting magazines made me feel icky, that wasn't a hardship. (And, on a side note, MDC fit well with my plans to avoid medicating my child). AP and GD are what we came to naturally because they work for our family. Most mainstream practices would not, and I don't say that lightly -- I never heard the terms GD or AP until 3 or 4 years ago, and I looked into *everything* trying to help our family.

Now about using a diagnosis as an excuse not to discipline? I've never seen it, but I'm usually focused on my own three. I make it a rule not to set us up for failure (no operas!), but sometimes incidents do occur. And sometimes, the reason for the behavior *is* the diagnosis. My oldest has been known to have developmentally-appropriate meltdowns, but he also has autism meltdowns. The difference may not be apparent to an outsider, but my ability to recognize the differences is what determines the effectiveness of my helping strategies. It has taken me years to figure this out. My assumption when someone says, "He has autism (or ADD, or SID or . . .)" is that they are still working on figuring it all out, and my heart hurts for them and their child because I know that pain. If someone wants an excuse to *not* discipline, then they will find an excuse regardless of their child's needs. But those are probably not going to be people who care enough about parenting to spend time at MDC, let alone the GD forum (sweeping generalization, I know).

One final point is that it *is* a balancing act. My first couple of years as a parent, I read parenting books. Then I spent a few years reading everything I could about my children's specific needs. Now we are at a point where I believe that the few issues we have are parenting issues rather than special needs issues, so I'm back to reading more parenting books. I think all parents who are passionate about being a parent try to find a balance between honoring their child's development and being an effective parent.

I'm not offended by the OP, but I am a little confused by it. I've answered as best as I can, but I feel like I may not be answering the real question.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:

If someone wants an excuse to *not* discipline, then they will find an excuse regardless of their child's needs. But those are probably not going to be people who care enough about parenting to spend time at MDC, let alone the GD forum (sweeping generalization, I know).
I think that is a good point, and one that I can see...

And I previously acknowledged the second part of what you're saying (people with these issues would tend to visit MDC, etc.)

It's tough, 'cause I'm not sure if I have a question or if I was just wondering what people thought about the issue...

As for some things just being part of the diagnosis-- absolutely. It was an immense relief to read this bit of advice in an adult ADD book for me... Something along the lines of: "Sometimes, you have to be able to tell your spouse (et al.) 'I guess that's my ADD again.' Not that that relieves you of all responsibilty for your actions-- and you should still *work on* that behavior-- but it is helpful to understand that X or Y is caused by your ADD, and not something else."

For example, my ADD (especially before I was treated) causes me to be kind of cruddy with directions, getting off at the right exit, etc. DH and I would get into long, drawn-out arguments/discussions about how I was maybe being passive-aggressive, and didn't really want to go to X event, so that's why I was making us late with bad directions, etc. Or that I didn't really respect him enough to be on time for Y...

Ever since I was diagnosed (with flying colors, LOL):

A) That doesn't happen as often, because I now realize what I can do to prevent the situation (hint: it's not "have more respect for DH."







)

and

B) When it does happen, it still stinks, but it's not as big a deal, b/c we both know it was not intentional.

I guess I still waver sometimes, though... because once in a while it *may* be (or may have been) that I *was*, on some level, being passive-agressive. Not usually, but sometimes. OTOH, I don't want to beat myself up about unrelated issues when ADD itself is usually "to blame."

I guess this is what you're talking about when you say you can tell the difference between your son's different "tantrums." I want to be able to do that, so that I'm addressing the *right* issue. If I have a kid with ADD, for example, I want to be able to see when he isn't cleaning his room because it's overwhelming for him to prioritize (an ADD issue), and treat it accordingly. OTOH, if it's the kind of thing he would do even if he didn't have ADD-- like not wanting to do a certain task because it's "boring," but not particularly difficult to prioritize, etc. (i.e., *not* necessarily an ADD issue)-- then I want to treat *that* accordingly...

Is it trial and error, in terms of knowing (or guessing) which is which? And how does this fit in with kids' needs for us to be "consistent?"


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

My parents definitely use ADD as an exuse with my brother. Him being diagnosed was the _best_ thing that ever happened to _them_ because now they don't have to blame themselves for screwing him up for life. Maybe he doesn't have a job because he was spoiled and coddled and bribed all his life for good behavior? Maybe he's emotionally screwed up and doesn't have social skills because he was constantly put down, berrated, screamed at, shamed, beaten, slapped, punished, sent to his room, etc., for every little thing? (Well, _of course_ that's not what's wrong with him, it's OBVIOUSLY because he has a mental disorder!







) I guess that's why I believe ADD = LAZY. Because every kid I know just so happens to be diagnosed with ADD. I can't think of any kid I know who hasn't been diagnosed with _something_. How can that possibly be legit? It can't be.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
As for my OP, I... I think that it does make sense that posters to any discipline board would tend to be self-selecting... That is, that it would make sense to see a higher-than-average proportion of kids with learning disorders and the like... Because they might be more likely to need "unconventional" solutions/discipline and because, if their parents have had them diagnosed with a specific disorder, that might indicate that their parents tend to be more involved in finding solutions, reading discipline books, visiting boards, etc.

Bingo! The reason that so many moms here have special needs kids is that there is a forum here for moms with special needs kids.

Not all the moms posting to the GD board have children with special needs. Sometimes it's more typical stuff (like three year olds having tantrums, for example.) The big issue for many of us (including me) is that we weren't raised with gentle discipline.

Though I must say that even though my mom was a hitter and a yeller, she did do the kind of planning ahead that characterizes the best of GD. It's not only that people shouldn't bring a child with ADHD to the opera, it's that they should have a little foresight about not bringing a two and a half year old to five separate stores before lunchtime. So I do have a model for the kind of anticipation of children's needs that makes for successfully gentle discipline.

I think the need for consistency in discipline is a bit exagerated. Remember, this is a human being we are talking about here, a thinking feeling person who can come to understand you as another person. A learning disability like ADD doesn't change that--as you know.


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Benji'sMom*
I can't think of any kid I know who hasn't been diagnosed with _something_. How can that possibly be legit? It can't be.

Why not? Statistics have shown that certain areas have a higher rate of certain conditions. And evidence is showing a genetic component for conditions, too. So it isn't inconceivable that someone's circle of acquaintances has a high rate of diagnoses. I don't question your personal experience, but it isn't fair to apply one situation to everyone who has a diagnosis.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

I think it's tough to know what is legitimate, but then it becomes kind-of difficult to address...

Like, I visit the Birthing and Beyond board, as well as some Childbirth Choices types of debate boards on other comms. I am very pro-NCB, pro-HB-- but mostly pro-informed choice.

Sooooo many women will say, "oh but MY (or my sister's or whatever) C-sec was legitimate..."









And it's tough, because of course-- SOME C-secs ARE legitimate, and would happen no matter what. SOME generally overused interventions DO save lives, SOME of the time.

But all these women, claiming that they're "exceptions?" And adding up to 30+%-- when they should probably be 5-10%?

You just *know* that, statistically, most of them are wrong, but you can't say that directly, because:

A) They could be right (though probably not); and
B) It's a very sensitive and painful subject, and many women have a strong need to believe that their C-secs, etc., were necessary.

Same goes for women who "just couldn't breastfeed."

*Many* of them legitimately couldn't. No problem. And I'm not judging any of them, anyway.

But many who tried could have, had they had proper instruction and support.

And then there are others who really didn't try at all.

Then they all get lumped together, which is where things get hairy.

If you vent about the rate of unnecessary C-secs, for example, people who had them for necessary reasons get up in arms, and feel the need to explain exactly why theirs were necessary-- when you were not (obviously) referring to them.

And then those who had unnecessary C-secs get upset, because you are judging them-- which in fact, you may not be. You may be venting about how often they occur, but not blaming the women themselves.

Etc...

ADD...

Some kids (and adults) have it, and are actively addressing it.

Some have it and use it as an excuse.

Some have it and blame *every* problem they have on it.

Some don't have it, but do any of the above.

I don't think it's overdiagnosed to the extent that C-secs are, but I do think it's both overdiagnosed (among active boys, the wealthy, kids who have other disorders) AND underdiagnosed (among girls, lower-income students-- because they're just lazy, of course!, and the "gifted"-- how can they have an LD?)...


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
Is it trial and error, in terms of knowing (or guessing) which is which? And how does this fit in with kids' needs for us to be "consistent?"

Some of it is trial and error, but a lot of it is being tuned in to your child -- an area where AP really shines. And I think that consistency is more important in terms of showing love than in trying to use the same strategies time and again.

Regarding your donut example -- I would not consider it acceptable, but I have to ask, why were you looking to begin with? One of the things parents of children with special needs must contend with is rude stares. There are many ways people cope, and one of them is to try to laugh it off (not my way, but I've heard it reported several times at support groups). I'm not trying to shift blame or anything like that (letting a child fondle food that isn't theirs is not acceptable), but there is a difference between observing and looking away in hope that the parent will do something and gawking. I have been on the receiving end of gawking enough times to know that explaining the condition it almost irresistable. Some parents do it as a way to try to relieve tension, and others do it as a way to attack the individual doing the staring. Again, I'm not trying to shift the focus here, just wanted to mention that what you consider an innocent look may well be interpreted differently by a parent under stress.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
I don't think it's overdiagnosed to the extent that C-secs are, but I do think it's both overdiagnosed (among active boys, the wealthy, kids who have other disorders) AND underdiagnosed (among girls, lower-income students-- because they're just lazy, of course!, and the "gifted"-- how can they have an LD?)...

When you are on a message board, with people you can't see who live all over the world, it's safest to assume that they are representing their experiences accurately. Otherwise, how can you have a conversation? You can't decide, "Oh she didn't REALLY need a c/s" or "Her child doesn't REALLY have sensory integration disorder."

Message boards are built on trust that people are who they say they are. Real life is different. KWIM? You can see more of what's going on IRL. Here, you have to react to what people write. Also, a message board that provides certain kinds of advice and parenting solutions is going to attract certain kinds of questions and parenting problems.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
When you are on a message board, with people you can't see who live all over the world, it's safest to assume that they are representing their experiences accurately. Otherwise, how can you have a conversation? You can't decide, "Oh she didn't REALLY need a c/s" or "Her child doesn't REALLY have sensory integration disorder."

Message boards are built on trust that people are who they say they are. Real life is different. KWIM? You can see more of what's going on IRL. Here, you have to react to what people write. Also, a message board that provides certain kinds of advice and parenting solutions is going to attract certain kinds of questions and parenting problems.

That's usually what I do-- believe (or behave as though I believe) that people are representing their experiences accurately.

Especially when it's a support board (as opposed to a debate board)!


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thoesly*
Some of it is trial and error, but a lot of it is being tuned in to your child -- an area where AP really shines. And I think that consistency is more important in terms of showing love than in trying to use the same strategies time and again.

Regarding your donut example -- I would not consider it acceptable, but I have to ask, why were you looking to begin with? One of the things parents of children with special needs must contend with is rude stares. There are many ways people cope, and one of them is to try to laugh it off (not my way, but I've heard it reported several times at support groups). I'm not trying to shift blame or anything like that (letting a child fondle food that isn't theirs is not acceptable), but there is a difference between observing and looking away in hope that the parent will do something and gawking. I have been on the receiving end of gawking enough times to know that explaining the condition it almost irresistable. Some parents do it as a way to try to relieve tension, and others do it as a way to attack the individual doing the staring. Again, I'm not trying to shift the focus here, just wanted to mention that what you consider an innocent look may well be interpreted differently by a parent under stress.

This is a good point, and a reason that I don't usually stare or anything. (Actually, when I see a frustrated parent, I sometimes try to defuse the situation by playing peek-a-boo with the kid or chatting with the parent, etc.)

In the case of the donuts, however, I was actually waiting to get some of my own. So I kinda couldn't help it. And I agree that she may have been trying to use humor to defuse the situation, but also agree that it's just plain-old inappropriate behavior (at least inappropriate in that it was allowed to continue)-- whether he had autism or not.

I assumed she was totally correct-- I mean, she could be a mom who just says that to cover for poor parenting or something, but I assume not. Of course, either way, she wasn't doing her son or anyone else any favors. But I don't have to tell you that...


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Michelle- I apreciate the insight this has brough to my attention. I too have thought along the same lines as you, and have wondered some of the very same thoughts.








Thanks for posting







& good luck on starting (through preparation) your journey into mommy-hood!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I just wanted to add that AFAIC you are as welcome here as anybody else. It's a pile of crap to suggest that just because you don't have kids you can't stimulate a good discussion, or participate in one. I spent many months here while pregnant with my first child. I asked a LOT of questions, participated in a lot of threads (I had a lot of time on my hands, on leave for the last four months and no kids, lol) and I just learned SO much that I feel really contributed to me being the parent I wanted to be. And I very occasionally got the same "you don't have kids so you just don't know" line, and many people stood up to defend my right to be here, and applauded me for wanting to learn as much as I could BEFORE the children arrived. I extend the same kudos to you. When you are ready to have kids, you will have such an advantage for knowing what you want to do ahead of time.

As for this thread, I think I understand your point. I think your "I don't want to offend" line was likely because you appreciate how hard it is to convey tone - not because your subject is offensive. It's obvious to me from reading your posts that you are being thoughtful, that you are being philosophical, and most of all that you are open to learning and that's why you brought it up. I'll read along with you for interest's sake, since I don't have this issues with my children, and I think others have said as much as I know on the subject.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quick reply...it's almost bath/bedtime.









My 16 mo. old son was recently dx'd with SID. It is seen as by some a dubious diagnosis, one that doesn't really exist. Those who think it isn't real, I kindly invite them to spend a day with my child. :LOL He was diagnosed at a very hoity-toity, well-known teaching hospital by an OT and a speech/language pathologist.

Anyway, he is also soon to be evaluated for autism, as we think he may fall on the spectrum.

Needless to say, he has a rough time in some places and situations. Rather than allow him to act out, we either choose to avoid certain places and situations all together, or bring a zillion "props" with us, hoping ds will be able to cope, as somehow he HAS to learn how to deal in places like restaurants, grocery stores, etc..

For instance, we went out to dinner a couple of nights ago for my birthday. I forgot to bring the balloon I had purchased SPECIFICALLY to tie to ds's high chair in order to provide enough distraction that he would be able to tolerate sitting still for that long. He started to meltdown almost IMMEDIATELY upon being placed in the high chair at the restaurant. Rather than let him sit there and scream and fidget and try to climb out of the chair and into our laps, or worse, run around the restaurant, we took turns eating while the other parent took ds outside and let ds run around in the courtyard area (we were at a restaurant in a mall with an outdoor courtyard with fountains, etc..). I suppose I could have been like the donut mom, and let ds run wild or scream or throw food and then shrugged and said to the annoyed patrons and restaurant employees around us, "oh, he has SID...," but that's not only rude and inconsiderate, it's bad parenting. You don't let a "normal" child run wild in a place they are expected to remain seated, or allow them to throw food or scream their guts out at the expense of the other customers, so why would you let a special needs child do the same? Yes, you make some exceptions. Like bringing a balloon to tie to the high chair, and if anybody gives you any crap, you tell them that it's either the balloon or a screaming toddler. Pick one. :LOL

I dunno, I guess with my son, we walk a fine line of trying to help him adapt to his surroundings as well as adapting his surroundings to _him_. He needs to learn to adapt and cope, but there is a time and a place for learning, and a crowded, nice restaurant is not that time or place. If I'm shopping in Wal-Mart and he gets fussy sitting in the cart, I won't leave Wal-Mart, I'll try to get him to chill out by offering toys or snacks, or if he's really freaking, put him in the sling. He's given a much wider berth at Wal-Mart than he is at a nice restaurant...kwim?

So I get what you're asking, I don't take offense to it. That's how we deal with it. It's a very gray area and you kind of have to just make it up as you go along. Guess this wasn't such a short reply after all, eh? :LOL


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

When my daughter was 16 months old, there was no way I would have even attempted a sit-down meal in a restaurant. I don't know many 16 month olds who could handle that. A few, maybe, but not many.

I remember taking my just-turned-two yr old sister to a restaurant when I was 12... my mom, dad, 10 year old brother, and I all did shifts playing with her on the porch outside the restaurant. She made it for maybe 5 minutes, tops, at the table.

Neither has ever been labeled with anything, and both eat at restaurants just fine now (at 12 and 24).

I'm not trying to say that anyone's child is or isn't any particular thing, but I do agree with the OP that there definitely seem to be more labelizing of children now. I think there's a wide range of "normal" in children, especially young children, and we've gotten into a pattern of labeling many differences as disorders. It feels like it's more acceptable to say, "My child has a hard time with (X) because he is (label)" than to simply say, "My child is having a hard time with (X)." I think labeling makes it seem less acceptable for plain ol' kids to have problems. I worry that labels tend to stick even after problems are outgrown - I saw this with my brother and dyslexia.

Dar


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
When my daughter was 16 months old, there was no way I would have even attempted a sit-down meal in a restaurant. I don't know many 16 month olds who could handle that. A few, maybe, but not many.

I remember taking my just-turned-two yr old sister to a restaurant when I was 12... my mom, dad, 10 year old brother, and I all did shifts playing with her on the porch outside the restaurant. She made it for maybe 5 minutes, tops, at the table.

Neither has ever been labeled with anything, and both eat at restaurants just fine now (at 12 and 24).

I'm not trying to say that anyone's child is or isn't any particular thing, but I do agree with the OP that there definitely seem to be more labelizing of children now. I think there's a wide range of "normal" in children, especially young children, and we've gotten into a pattern of labeling many differences as disorders. It feels like it's more acceptable to say, "My child has a hard time with (X) because he is (label)" than to simply say, "My child is having a hard time with (X)." I think labeling makes it seem less acceptable for plain ol' kids to have problems. I worry that labels tend to stick even after problems are outgrown - I saw this with my brother and dyslexia.

Dar

*shrug* Well, he's my first child, so I have no measuring stick as to what's normal. All I know is that my friends' children of the same age do fine in restaurants. And 2 people with master's degrees at a very prestigious, internationally known children's hospital diagnosed him. I highly doubt their diagnosis is quackery.


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
It's a pile of crap to suggest that just because you don't have kids you can't stimulate a good discussion, or participate in one.










I agree wholeheartedly. Do parents of children with special needs grill the teachers about whether they have kids? How about all the medical doctors, therapists, and specialists?

As a mom-to-be and a doctor myself, I was a bit appalled at some of the responses, in a forum where I am lurking and hoping to learn about parents who don't want to judge their kids or have their kids judged. Here the OP seems very honestly to be trying to stimulate discussion as gently as she could (what was that somebody said about message boards being built on trust?). I saw a lot of judging in previous posts.

Are these disorders real IMO? Absolutely. I see it everyday in my office. I see many improve in the severity of the disorder, and I see many learning to adapt to their world.

Are these disorders very often overdiagnosed IMO? Absolutely. I see it everyday in my office. Like the 9-year-old who starts care while being on 4 different medications for ADHD. This little guy comes in by himself (while mom is in the car with the 3-year-old), sits quietly until it his turn, makes simple requests, politely initiates conversation and thanks me for my care, carefully and immediately completes his in-office therapy, and returns to his mother. WTH? I gave this boy and his parents a simple personality test. Turns out he is just a highly expressive guy who knows how he feels and what he wants, is very emotional, and requires a high level of responsiveness from those around him. Which, IMO, is why he functions so well in my office. Maybe he has trouble in school because his teacher cannot handle this in light of a room of 30 kids (understandably), and whatever this kid has to say is so burningly and important in his mind that he has a hard time raising his hand before speaking. Maybe his diet of pizza rolls and fish sticks has something to do with it. Now there might be a hyperactivity component to it, as he is now off 2 of those drugs after being under care for a month. And I've been to his house and observed him there as well. Sorry to get off on a tangent, but I have many more examples!

Soooo, anyway... OP didn't come here and say "you all suck the way you coddle your 'special needs' kids" or anything even close. I think posters here should be treated as gently as GD'd children.


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## kitty waltz (Mar 23, 2005)

Jumping in here as a mother of a 3 1/2 yr old w/ autism and a 17 mo with obvious sensory issues and no dx:

This was the closest thing I could find in the op to a question:

Quote:

mmaramba-
Which gets me to my point/question...

As much as I am becoming a convert to GD, I am a bit uneasy with the many children I see here that are described as having SID, something on the autism spectrum, ODD, CAPD, ADD/ADHD, etc.

I "get" the "spirited child" thing-- it's just a way of describing one's child on a relative scale of behavior and tendencies... And it would make sense that a discipline board of any kind would attract more parents of "spirited children" than the more mellow type.

But all the diagnoses... Make me a bit uneasy?

I mean, maybe there are SID issues for some kids, but maybe they can be mitigated with solutions that are not necessarily "SID solutions." Maybe we would sometimes do better NOT to focus on what our kids have in terms of disorders, as they are clearly not just a sum of disorders!
to mmaramba: you said in a later post that you were aware that most statements preceded by "I don't mean any offense, but.." are usually offensive.
Could you not see how your post followed the same formula, the disclaimers, etc. followed by the judgemental hurtful statements? Really some people dont know when they are being racist or discriminatory and Im sure this is the case but just because you cant see why someone else is upset or offended does not mean that you didnt say something hurtful.

Every solution to a problem involving my dd isnt an autism solution. Many tactics/strategies that are effective for my dd would also be effective w/ a neurotypical child. Other strategies I use play to her obsessions and rituals and her sensory needs, those may or may not be interesting or useful 'solutions' for a nt child. I dont think any parent here, of a sn child looks at their child as a sum of disorders each with a separate 'solution' or treatment. I mean this _is_ a natural family living board, almost everybody here shares a holistic mindset.

and a later poster:

Quote:

I'm not trying to say that anyone's child is or isn't any particular thing, but I do agree with the OP that there definitely seem to be more labelizing of children now. I think there's a wide range of "normal" in children, especially young children, and we've gotten into a pattern of labeling many differences as disorders. It feels like it's more acceptable to say, "My child has a hard time with (X) because he is (label)" than to simply say, "My child is having a hard time with (X)." I think labeling makes it seem less acceptable for plain ol' kids to have problems. I worry that labels tend to stick even after problems are outgrown - I saw this with my brother and dyslexia.

I mean really, do you think that professionals just hand out dx's so people can say, "my child has {x}"?

It seems everywhere I go my dd's dx is regarded w/ suspicion. Now here, too?
Many people dont understand SID or ASD's. You can't just say 'I dont believe in them' or "I thinks many dx's aren't legitimate" and close your eyes to the reality of the situation. I wish that kind of logic worked.. Id be chanting "I dont believe in republicans"







but it wouldnt change the reality of the political situation here in america either.

edited to fix the quote and to add: I dont want you to feel attacked or offended either mmaramba. I dont want you to feel unwelcome to post and learn here on this board as I and others have done. But questioning of this sort..this is a sensitive topic. I believe is up to a parent to discern if a label applied by a professional is truly appropriate for their child, and from there, on this board esp., they should be given the benefit of the doubt.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Did the OP say at any time that she doesn't "believe" in neurological disorders? I think she's pointing out a general societal trend, and genuinely trying to understand something-- to settle a division in her own mind, so to speak. If questioning the status quo ain't OK here, then where?

I think the breastfeeding analogy is an excellent one. Certainly there are some who are medically unable to nurse, but this fact doesn't mean that there aren't thousands of docs out there handing out crap information that hinders normal nursing relationships. And pointing out the fact that there may be a ton of misunderstanding and poor information out there from the medical establishment is NOT an attack on individuals.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
*shrug* Well, he's my first child, so I have no measuring stick as to what's normal. All I know is that my friends' children of the same age do fine in restaurants. And 2 people with master's degrees at a very prestigious, internationally known children's hospital diagnosed him. I highly doubt their diagnosis is quackery.

Finch









You said what I wanted to say earlier.

Anyone who doubts SID would enjoy a day in my house. I would refrain from handling every aspect of sensory input, and sit back and enjoy the ride. :LOL

Dar, I hear what you are saying but I'm sure that the challenges Finch faces are very different to those you faced with your dd and all the other toddlers you knew. Personally, I watched all my friends do things with their 16 month olds that I could not attempt at 3 or 4 yrs old. And that included going out to eat.

And having pictures taken.........and walking round a mall...........and going swimming......and walking along the beach..........and going to a party............and going on a playdate..........and playing with playdough.............and doing fingerpainting.........

Unless you have had a child with SID, you simply have no idea. Honestly.

As for overdiagnosed, my child was the first I've known and I've never heard anyone else IRL say their child has SID.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
Finch









You said what I wanted to say earlier.

Anyone who doubts SID would enjoy a day in my house. I would refrain from handling every aspect of sensory input, and sit back and enjoy the ride. :LOL

Dar, I hear what you are saying but I'm sure that the challenges Finch faces are very different to those you faced with your dd and all the other toddlers you knew. Personally, I watched all my friends do things with their 16 month olds that I could not attempt at 3 or 4 yrs old. And that included going out to eat.

And having pictures taken.........and walking round a mall...........and going swimming......and walking along the beach..........and going to a party............and going on a playdate..........and playing with playdough.............and doing fingerpainting.........

Unless you have had a child with SID, you simply have no idea. Honestly.

As for overdiagnosed, my child was the first I've known and I've never heard anyone else IRL say their child has SID.









Thanks.







Yeah, let me add to your "list" there:
touching grass....touching sand.....eating anything green.....not screaming when the stroller/shopping cart/car stops......

Wheee!!!


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Did the OP say at any time that she doesn't "believe" in neurological disorders? I think she's pointing out a general societal trend, and genuinely trying to understand something-- to settle a division in her own mind, so to speak.

I agree with this, and it's why I took the time to answer instead of passing by. But try to understand that to a parent who has a child with special needs, the insistence that a child's condition is "overdiagnosed" is tantamount to saying, "Your child probably doesn't *really* have it, and even if he/she does, it obviously isn't that important or it wouldn't be so popular." I know that isn't the intention, but no matter how carefully it's worded, it's going to feel like an attack.

And I really don't believe that it's as overdiagnosed as people want to think. I'm sure it happens, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule. My kids have a lot of conditions, so I do a *lot* of reading on the subject of special needs. One of the main theories regarding autism (and many other conditions) is the "canary in the coalmine" theory. Basically, it says that to be healthy, our bodies must be able to eliminate toxins, and we all have a threshold at which the incoming toxins can overwhelm our body's ability to get rid of them. This is when conditions appear. Kids with autism (and ADD/ADHD is on the spectrum) simply have a lower threshold than others. Now consider what has occurred in the past 30+ years: we've poisoned our food. We've poisoned our water. We've poisoned our air. We've intentionally put toxins in our children (I'm not even talking about the vaccine controversy -- just the thimerosol issue, the abuse of antibiotics, and the mass marketing of over the counter drugs that makes parents think it's "safe" to give Tylenol and Benedryl to get a child to sleep). All things considered, it's not surprising that more and more people are being diagnosed with conditions. How can you have a healthy population in a toxic world? Go to the Food Allergy forum. You can see threads there questioning the rise in food allergies. Check out the vaccination forum regarding reactions and diseases. I'm sure the Nutrition forum has information about GMOs and the health consequences. I would like to think all of this constitutes a wake-up call to make people start seriously considering the impact we are having on the planet, but instead, people hide their eyes and insist it isn't happening -- it's overdiagnosed, the victims aren't statistically significant, well, he looks fine to *me*.

I understand the OP's concerns, but as someone who watches her children suffer (*suffer*), I also understand that questioning by "outsiders" can exacerbate emotions that are already rubbed raw. I think that is often why offense is taken when none is intended.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
I mean, maybe there are SID issues for some kids, but maybe they can be mitigated with solutions that are not necessarily "SID solutions." Maybe we would sometimes do better NOT to focus on what our kids have in terms of disorders, as they are clearly not just a sum of disorders!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this one.

"Maybe" there are SID issues for some kids? "Maybe" they can be mitigated with solutions that are not necessarily 'SID solutions'? WHat does that mean exactly? What is a non-SID solution? Maybe "we" would sometimes do better NOT to focus on what our kids have in terms of disorders?

Okey dokey. WHEN you have a child that tantrums for an hour because someone looked at her in the grocery and made eye contact, when you have a child that will not be held, spoken to or looked at while they are having these full-blown one hour tantrums, when you have a child that won't wear clothes, eat or sleep - how about then you tell me what a non-SID solution is!

I won't tell you that until you're a parent you don't belong answering these questions, you certainly do. But until you have had a special needs child, please don't make presumptions about "whether" these disorders exist and how we deal with it. You have no idea what we go through. And I assure you, a home visit or a classroom exchange does NOT necessarily give you the insight into understanding how these kids work. My DD is a champ at holding things together in front of visitors and then letting the stress go for hours afterwards.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Good point, Lovebeads. The idea of 'non SID' solutions puzzled me too.

mmaramba, I think there is a common misunderstanding about the use of 'labels' for special needs children. Many people believe that by labelling a child, you are setting limits on achievement, or you are wanting an excuse. The truth is, most parents use and need a label for an _explanation_ of their child's behaviours, and as a _tool_ that they can use to find common themes, treatments, and hopefully solutions. A label to most parents is incredibly freeing - it certainly was for me.

I've also been thinking about your description of a boy at the opera. Obvoiusly, a child who ruins an experience for everyone else is not acceptable. However, how far does this go?

Should I never take my child out in public, in case her behaviour upsets someone? Should my child be denied experiences that are everyday for other preschoolers?

An example. A few weeks ago I took my children to a local theatre for a performance aimed at preschoolers/kindergarteners. I was literally _hounded_ by the theatre house manager. She kept moving in and sitting right behind me, and twice tapped me on the shoulder to take one or other of my children outside. How acutely embarrassing and upsetting for me and for my children. We were the only ones told to leave at any point, and she did not stop eyeballing me from start to finish.

Why? Because my SID children - who are also exceptionally bright - were very stimulated by the performance, and were responding more enthusiastically than their peers. ie, they laughed louder, squealed in anticipation, and giggled at the jokes. Yes, my two year old got the jokes that many five year olds didnt.

They didnt understand that this house manager felt that the children should giggle softly and elegantly. I tried explaining to them, but they did not get it. They were enjoying themselves, but they didnt get the social cues that the other children understood.

So, they were removed from the theatre to quieten down'. They felt like crap. So did I.

However, what gave me hope was that after the performance, three separate parents approached me and told me that they thought that the house manager was way out of line, and that my children were _not_ disturbing anyone, and how wonderful it was to see children express their enjoyment so enthusiatically. Two other parents went to the manager to complain. One actually asked her how children were to ever learn about theatre behaviour if they were excluded for not knowing. And these parents did not know that my children have special needs - although from their compassion, I assume that they were sensitive enough to guess.

As for me, I left and have not yet summoned up the energy or strength to go to another show. I bet all the other parents have been to the rest of the series.

Do we exclude anyone whose behaviour is not typical from all places where they might upset the majority? Where does this begin, and where does it end? What rights do my children have, compared to others?

It's a fine line - and believe me, parents of SID children are well aware of it.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Omg, Britishmum, you really REALLY need to write a letter of complaint about that theatre manager. That's ridiculous. Wow. WOW. I probably would have blasted her with both barrells for something like that....telling your children not to laugh loudly at a CHILDREN'S THEATRE PERFORMANCE??!!?? Yeah, okay, whatever....she needs to have her hind end handed to her on a platter, IMO.

Uncalled for. Rude. Write a letter, make sure there's a paper trail. Nail her. That's totally uncalled for behavior.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Britishmum, hugs. I have had almost the exact same thing happen. What happened to us was so terrible, I can't even write about it. But boy do I know how you felt and my stomach is in knots just thinking about it. I'm so sorry!!

Quote:

Do we exclude anyone whose behaviour is not typical from all places where they might upset the majority? Where does this begin, and where does it end? What rights do my children have, compared to others?
Excellent point and one which we are painfully aware of every day. For those who have SID kids, you know that if you don't expose your children to things, you cannot desensitize them. And it is painful for them to be exposed so you have to push to the near point of trauma and then pull back. It is a fine line that we walk.

Oh well - I guess the upside is that we have other SID moms we can talk to and compare war stories :LOL . We need to resurrect the "You know your child has SID thread"!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Oh well - I guess the upside is that we have other SID moms we can talk to and compare war stories :LOL . We need to resurrect the "You know your child has SID thread"!

Yeah - like:

You know your child has SID when

-you've been thrown out a theatre at least once and -

- threads like this can move you to tears


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I am sorry I read this thread.

If somebody has become more educated by it, that is terrific!

But it has been rather a downer for me, to realize afresh that so many people will never understand my son.

It makes me sooo tired! It is verbalized often enough that I know what people are thinking....

"your other 3 children are so well-behaved. Why do you spoil that one?"

or (_when he's beyond stimulated and shuts down_) "he sat here perfectly for the whole service. He can be good when he wants" (_not realizing that it will take every ounce of creativity that I have, for the rest of the day, to get him smoothed out again_)

or just out and about, as I constantly whisper to him, touch him, watch him like a hawk, while tending and supervising the other 3. I know I look like a control freak, micromanaging my child.

Its just that there is a dance I've learned to do, that makes it possible for my boy to live, laugh, love, learn and grow. We don't look 'normal' because we're not!

In the past, there were quirky kids, as has been mentioned.

Even now, I believe there are a million kids who could benefit from therapy or a different discipline style.

I think you see more mamas of SID and AS children on AP message boards b/c AP mamas have a nontypical respect for children. It is possible that we could use behavioristic methods to force our children to 'behave' in more socially acceptable ways (at great cost to the mental and emotional health of the child). But we don't want to just teach our children to get in line. We want them to thrive, in every way.

For an AP'd Sid or Aspie child, its gonna take a little longer to integrate into society. But we'll get there. It is a goal, really.

But in the meantime my kid *will* behave inappropriately. I'll stop the behavior as smoothly and quickly as i can, but I won't explain. You'll just have to think us rude. I'll work on that behavior and he probably won't do that again, but there'll be something else tomorrow!

His self-esteem and inner happiness, daily, takes priority over the opinions and perceptions of strangers. It is his best and only chance.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse*
It is possible that we could use behavioristic methods to force our children to 'behave' in more socially acceptable ways (at great cost to the mental and emotional health of the child). But we don't want to just teach our children to get in line. We want them to thrive, in every way.

EXACTLY. That's what I told my dh when he was fighting me on getting ds evaluated. "Why does he even need help? Can't he just learn to cope?" I said yes, he can, but not without growing up extremely socially, emotionally, and mentally stunted and strained and traumatized. Children that DON'T get treatment and are forced to adapt despite the trauma are the ones who you see later down the road that are maladapted adults who exhibit self-loathing and self-injurious behaviors. I don't want that for my son. Ever. I pray every night that he grow to love, trust, and have faith in himself and in me and dh, and that he grow up knowing he is loved and FEELING that love. THAT is what truly matters to me.








Townmouse


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Oh well - I guess the upside is that we have other SID moms we can talk to and compare war stories :LOL . We need to resurrect the "You know your child has SID thread"!

You know your child has SID when you pack your diaper bag like you're going to battle with all the props, snacks, clothing changes, and baby carriers on the planet stuffed into it....just to go to the grocery store and post office. :LOL


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I'm not trying to say that anyone's child is or isn't any particular thing, but I do agree with the OP that there definitely seem to be more labelizing of children now. I think there's a wide range of "normal" in children, especially young children, and we've gotten into a pattern of labeling many differences as disorders. It feels like it's more acceptable to say, "My child has a hard time with (X) because he is (label)" than to simply say, "My child is having a hard time with (X)." I think labeling makes it seem less acceptable for plain ol' kids to have problems. I worry that labels tend to stick even after problems are outgrown - I saw this with my brother and dyslexia.

I've been thinking about this a lot with regard to school.

It makes sense to get your child the services she needs if she has a learning or behavioral disability, or is neurologically atypical. It helps parents to know what to do for children with these issues when they get a diagnosis.

But it's true that you also don't want people's attitudes toward disability to present an even great obstacle than the actual disability. You know? You don't want the child warehoused in a special needs room and not getting, say, music lessons (?) that he could handle and enjoy. You don't want teachers to assume that your bright child isn't very smart because he's LD (which is so illogical that I can't even handle it, but does happen!)

Of course parents don't want to lower their expectations for their child's future achievement and future happiness because they have a disability. A label or a diagnosis is only useful to the extent that it tells you how to handle problems.

Anyway I want to reiterate what I said upthread. If parents post here and say "This is my experience" I think we should honor that. We can share a lot of information here and I always appreciate it. I don't like this:

Quote:

That's usually what I do-- believe (or behave as though I believe) that people are representing their experiences accurately.
You don't learn anything by "behaving as though you believe" that people are telling the truth about their lives. It's an adult thing that we have to do, to learn that everyone's experience is different. Disabled children are one of the most discriminated against groups in our society, it is no joke.


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
But it's true that you also don't want people's attitudes toward disability to present an even great obstacle than the actual disability. You know? You don't want the child warehoused in a special needs room and not getting, say, music lessons (?) that he could handle and enjoy. You don't want teachers to assume that your bright child isn't very smart because he's LD (which is so illogical that I can't even handle it, but does happen!)

I understand what you're saying here about the potential for people to see the disability instead of the child, but that hasn't been our experience or the experience of people I know in real life. Refusing to *call* it autism or SID or ADHD doesn't make the problem go away. I am usually very open about my older boy's autism because it means the difference between outsiders treating him like a freak who deserves ridicule or a freak who deserves compassion (you're not kidding when you talk about discrimination). And while the school concern is real, it does not need to play out that way if a parent is proactive, knows the law, and uses an advocate. Indeed, having the label means a child has certain rights that a child with the same condition but no label will not have. Plus, there is such a push to mainstream right now that the fights I know of are not about refusal to mainstream, but rather inappropriate mainstreaming.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:

You don't learn anything by "behaving as though you believe" that people are telling the truth about their lives.
Absolutely true, but that's not what I meant.

How could I have phrased that better...Hmmmm...

I meant, I believe, or I *assume*. I don't "pretend to believe," but given the nature of the internet...

Let's just say that I don't know for *sure* (of course!), but I "give the benefit of the doubt" and respond _as though_ I were _*sure*_ that X is true.

It is not always easy to communicate on boards like this, but I am trying. Knowing that it is a very sensitive topic, perhaps I should have spent more time writing and rewriting my posts...

It's just that... I have literally read almost every post on this board, including the archived stuff. I have posted before, and I felt pretty comfortable with the concepts of GD, and some of the issues that come into play WRT various neurological and learning disorders. I knew that if my posts were *fairly* clear, that anyone who found them questionable could *question* them-- that is the advantage of a message board as opposed to some published piece of writing-- the back-and-forth.

I expected that some parents might be a bit wary, might ask pointed questions and even express some concern... But I didn't expect the first response to be a direct attack. When someone says something that I think is questionable, I usually try to clarify, before jumping to conclusions. Any person whose post I might find questionable *might* very well have been offensive, ignorant, etc., but I try to give him or her a chance to redeem him or herself.

I do appreciate the many posters who let me clarify things.

Perhaps my problem in my OP-- in particular-- was an overabundance of words and an unclear "question," or "thesis." For that, I apologize.

I do very much appreciate the responses I received that... allowed me a bit more insight into raising a child with an LD or other disorder, the balancing act, etc.

I would like to note the following, in response to many of the posts here:

-I absolutely take these disorders seriously. I have one, as does my husband and my brother, among others. I don't think that they are usually used as excuses. Even when they are used as "excuses," I think it is rarely on an even semi-conscious level. I do not feel *any* child with one of these disorders is "faking it" or "just a brat." That would be a horrible hypocrisy and profoundly unhelpful.

-I have never "doubted" anyone on this board. Not in the least. My concerns about *possible* overdiagnosis/misdiagnosis were very broad and general. I now believe that the reason I see "so many" diagnoses on this board is the self-selection effect.

-When I wrote that we should "not treat children as though they are a sum of disorders," I *was NOT referring to anyone here*. I was referring, in fact, TO MYSELF. As I noted several times, this is a PERSONAL problem of MINE, from time-to-time. Sometimes I look at myself and say, well, I'm creative or messy because I have ADD, and I spend so much time on message boards because I have a little sub-clinical OCD, and I do X because I have some Y-disorder issues... So I was *personally* concerned that I would tend to do this with my kids. I also thought that there *might* be others like me out there...

With DH and I *both* having ADD, and mood disorders in both of our families, I know we will be on the lookout for both in our children. But I don't want to push that *on* our children, if they *don't* have those issues, either. I want to figure out what behavior is "normal" and what might be "disordered." And if they are diagnosed, then I want to understand how to treat different behaviors accordingly...

-I do understand that this is a sensitive topic, and one about which... I know *something*, certainly, but not from a parental perspective. I am glad that most posters were not offended or saddened by my posts, and I appreciate much of the insight I have gained here.

This is tough for me, as I actually *am* an African American Studies major, and I am white. I am very cognizant of the "outsider" effect-- from both angles, in the case of interracial relations. It is very important to me to bring up certain important issues, but equally important that I take care to be sensitive and not offend. OOH, I see that I have room to improve in this area. OTOH, I also see that I will have to grow an even thicker skin, as someone will *always* misunderstand me, no matter how clearly and non-judgementally I express my ideas (not that I could not have improved in this case).

Again, I will strive for the ideal, where everyone understands me, and I have been completely inoffensive, but I am human, and so is everyone else. Sometimes, I will realize that I have made a bigoted statement, and sometimes people will misinterpret what I said, no matter what I say.

Thanks again for all of the insight. I do feel I have the better understanding I was seeking-- and that I also was-- unintentionally but thankfully-- inspired by the strength and courage of many moms on this board.

If anyone else wants any additional clarification, please do ask.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
With DH and I *both* having ADD, and mood disorders in both of our families, I know we will be on the lookout for both in our children. But I don't want to push that *on* our children, if they *don't* have those issues, either. I want to figure out what behavior is "normal" and what might be "disordered." And if they are diagnosed, then I want to understand how to treat different behaviors accordingly...

You will know. Trust me. When everyone else's baby does X, Y and Z with ease, and yours can't cope with A, B or C - you will know. When your whole life, by necessity, revolves around managing the environment so your child can cope, you will know.

Sometimes something will happen and it will hit you hard, like a ton of bricks, just how 'different' your child is. You will get endless - and useless - advice from friends, family, and strangers. You will be told a million times "but _all_ children are special."

You will have to deal with all the doubters and judgers. But you will know, because you will _know your child._

I sincerely hope that it doesnt happen to you, but if it does, you will go out there to fight your child's corner just like all the other mamas of special needs children here.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
You will know. Trust me. When everyone else's baby does X, Y and Z with ease, and yours can't cope with A, B or C - you will know. When your whole life, by necessity, revolves around managing the environment so your child can cope, you will know.

Sometimes something will happen and it will hit you hard, like a ton of bricks, just how 'different' your child is. You will get endless - and useless - advice from friends, family, and strangers. You will be told a million times "but _all_ children are special."

You will have to deal with all the doubters and judgers. But you will know, because you will _know your child._

I sincerely hope that it doesnt happen to you, but if it does, you will go out there to fight your child's corner just like all the other mamas of special needs children here.









Thanks, britishmum.









I'm 75% sure it *will* happen, though, and I also know that it might not be readily apparent, if my kids are anything like me.

I had ADD TO THE MAX. But I was never diagnosed... To their credit, my parents did try to help me with my "organizational skills," but those were only half-solutions, since they didn't know I had ADD.

Actually, my 2nd grade teacher thought I had ADD. Reason? I would memorize the spelling test words, and write them all down as soon as the teacher started the test. Then I would go off in the corner and read the dictionary. For fun.

My parents had me tested, and the psychologists said "She doesn't have ADD, she's just really smart. Put her in a Gifted and Talented program."

So they did, and that was *great* for me, but I *still* had ADD. But no one considered that afterwards, because:

1) I wasn't hyperactive (like many ADD girls); and
2) I was 'gifted.' How could I have ADD?

Um... because I guess I was "gifted" enough to compensate in other areas-- for a while anyway. I was terribly disorganized, but when I *did* turn in my homework, I got A-pluses. Very confusing for everyone-- very depression/anxiety-triggering for me.

"If I'm so 'smart,' how come I can't get my sh!t together?"

So my parents didn't have huge warning signs WRT my "disorder" (well, in hindsight they did, but...)-- who figures a 4 y.o. who reads chapter books is "disordered?"

I know what you're saying, though... I just figure *I'll* have to be careful *not* to diagnose my kid with things he or she *doesn't* have!


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Oh, thought I'd add this, to the people who were wondering...

If you read my OP, you will see that I do NOT mean to suggest that one should use non-"disorder" solutions for "disorder" problems. That would be silly and counter-productive FTMP, IMO.

I was just trying to figure out how you know when the problem itself is a "disorder" or a non-"disorder" problem, and how/whether one should treat it accordingly...

I think that question was aptly answered... For me, anyway...


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## kitty waltz (Mar 23, 2005)

it seems the whole OP wasnt directed to anyone here, etc. I mean the post was written here so the implication is there that overdiagnosis occurs here, esp since you feel better about it after deciding that the amount of dx's on this board is due to a 'self selection effect" {not over-dxing is the implied other cause for so many dx's on the boards}

Quote:

If anyone else wants any additional clarification, please do ask
actually each and every 'clarification' you made here just doesnt clarify much for me. I dont really want you to restate your position. I dont think phrasing is the issue.

If a person says something hurtful, well even if they rephrase it, it still hurts. Even if they dont understand why it was hurtful.

I dont think Im misunderstanding you. I dont even really want to get into this but I feel that I must confront this issue whenever I can for my children and other sn kids' sake.

So you can let it drop and so will I.. Maybe everyone else here will let it go too. But I personally wish you had apologized for making hurtful comments and tried to learn from it, instead of rephrasing it to be what you consider acceptable.








:

im usually a lurker here in GD because of my kids' sn making things different for us. Ill go back to lurking now.









_edited for grammar and to add another_







:


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Kittywaltz--

I'm sorry. You must know that I am happy to apologize for what you termed "hurtful" and "judgemental" statements.

But I can't apologize when I don't know what I am apologizing for. I saw that you were upset by certain statements, and *thought* I understood *why* you were offended-- because you thought I was applying them to *you* or to anyone on this board, or even to parents of certain children in general.

I did not rephrase them to "get out of apologizing," I tried to clarify them, to point out that I was talking about *myself*.

I know that the following may seem like "non-apologies," but I am sorry that:

-people were upset by this thread.
-I was not as articulate-- or possibly as sensitive WRT my language?-- as I could have been.
-others in the world are not more sensitive to the challenges that many moms here are facing.

I am sorry, too, if I said or did anything to offend anyone here, other than the above. If anyone wants to tell me what, specifically, that is, I will be happy to apologize-- knowing that it is not my fault that this is a sensitive topic-- only that I might have been more sensitive. That's fair, right?

And if most people understood me and were not offended... I still believe I could have been clearer, but I don't imagine that I was completely *unclear*.

Does that make sense?

I am happy to admit when I am wrong. Well, not *happy*, LOL. But willing to learn and admit fault. OTOH, I tend to be overly apologetic at times-- for my existence, even.

"Oh, if I just hadn't said *anything*, none of this would have come up."

"Oh, even though I only had 10% of the control over situation X, if I HAD JUST done Y differently, everything would be okay."

I don't have that kind of power, though. I'm learning that.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

mmaramba--

I'm really not trying to sound ugly when I say this. Honestly, I had to read your OP about 4 or 5 times before I *sort of* got the gist of what you were saying. Maybe it's my brain, maybe it's your style of writing, who knows.

At any rate, can I just offer a suggestion? Stop trying to clarify. Really. Your subsequent posts are very difficult to follow, and I think that may be the case for some of the other posters here, and may be the source of the general uneasiness and bad feelings in this thread.

It's hard to be the non-mom on a parenting message board, esp. when you're just trying to learn and not offend anyone...I've been there, I know. I think this discussion is just too mixed up and far gone to recover, and we should all just sort of let it die a natural, graceful death.







:

JMHO.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think what was personally offensive to me (since you asked) is that I'm not sure that you were asking a specific question about a possible scenario or using the GD forum as a venting place for parents of special needs kids who simply do not (in your opinion) discipline their children.

Hence the following quote from your OP:

Quote:

I have the feeling that many of you feel this way, and that GD-- just like Christianity, for example-- is unfortunately often bastardized by (often well-meaning) folks who just don't want to discipline at all, or acknowledge the significance of nuture in addition to nature.
How do you suppose that comment makes parents of SID kids feel? We can either a) defend ourselves for having our children diagnosed, b) defend our children's behavior, or c) agree that yes, many parents of SID kids are not adequate discipliners and bastardize the true meaning of GD. So it is basically a lose-lose situation if you are a GD practicing parent of a SID child.

You have acknowledged that you have ADD but your question was about parents of children with "SID and other disorders". If you wanted to really compare it to your possible future issues with your chidren, then why bring SID into it at all? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with asking about SID, but it just seems strange that if you were truly looking for information on how to prevent yourself from looking at your future children's problems as just "problems" and not "ADD problems" then you could have asked that question to begin with instead of wondering why so many parents of SID kids aren't disciplining.

So that's what I found offensive.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:

How do you suppose that comment makes parents of SID kids feel? We can either a) defend ourselves for having our children diagnosed, b) defend our children's behavior, or c) agree that yes, many parents of SID kids are not adequate discipliners and bastardize the true meaning of GD. So it is basically a lose-lose situation if you are a GD practicing parent of a SID child.
That's a good point. I guess it was just that... I was going into this assuming/knowing (since I have read soooo many threads here) that the parents here were not the "bastardizing" kind.

Therefore, I wasn't expecting that anyone would feel the need to do a). As for b), I was not looking for that either, except in the context of understanding how one deals with the behavior, and knows what the cause is.

Finally, WRT c)... I may have been looking for agreement or disagreement... but I was open to both. Still just trying to figure things out.

I *do* get that parents of special-needs kids get it from all sides, and that they need a refuge where they don't feel judged. I am sorry that my post seemed like a judgemental one. I truly do not judge anyone negatively for having a special-needs child-- *especially* the moms here.

I guess I still don't see how the above was a "lose-lose" situation, and neither did many of the other posters. They gave me great insight. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't choose my words more carefully in the future. See my apology for "less-than-stellar phrasing," above.

The reason I mentioned SID-- in addition to ADD-- is because, A) I am considering that members of my family may have/have demonstrated symptoms of SID, and B) SID seemed the most frequently mentioned disorder on this board. (Probably b/c that can be diagnosed earlier than some other disorders?).

I guess I should just let this die, as I seem to be making things worse for some people.









As for my super-long, confusing posts... Maybe that's my ADD. Seriously. But I still take responsibility for the problems they may have caused... of course.

I still don't think I was wrong to bring this issue up, but I guess I sucked at doing so. Enough to upset a lot of people, even though some were happy to respond.










I guess I'll just







: until I have very situation-specific questions...















:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
Thanks, britishmum.









I'm 75% sure it *will* happen, though, and I also know that it might not be readily apparent, if my kids are anything like me.

I had ADD TO THE MAX. But I was never diagnosed... To their credit, my parents did try to help me with my "organizational skills," but those were only half-solutions, since they didn't know I had ADD.

Actually, my 2nd grade teacher thought I had ADD. Reason? I would memorize the spelling test words, and write them all down as soon as the teacher started the test. Then I would go off in the corner and read the dictionary. For fun.

My parents had me tested, and the psychologists said "She doesn't have ADD, she's just really smart. Put her in a Gifted and Talented program."

So they did, and that was *great* for me, but I *still* had ADD. But no one considered that afterwards, because:

1) I wasn't hyperactive (like many ADD girls); and
2) I was 'gifted.' How could I have ADD?

Um... because I guess I was "gifted" enough to compensate in other areas-- for a while anyway. I was terribly disorganized, but when I *did* turn in my homework, I got A-pluses. Very confusing for everyone-- very depression/anxiety-triggering for me.

"If I'm so 'smart,' how come I can't get my sh!t together?"

So my parents didn't have huge warning signs WRT my "disorder" (well, in hindsight they did, but...)-- who figures a 4 y.o. who reads chapter books is "disordered?"

I know what you're saying, though... I just figure *I'll* have to be careful *not* to diagnose my kid with things he or she *doesn't* have!

Aah, but you'll be better informed than your parents, I presume.

As for sorting out what is part of a disorder and what is just the child herself - you often never do, and imo that doesnt matter.

My dd, like you, is 'gifted'. She reads and does math etc to probably 2nd grade level - she is only 4. But she has SID. It is too complex to work out what triggers what behaviour, but the labels help in considering the whole picture.

This is a child, not a diagnosis.

Re the offensive aspect of this thread, maybe if you'd taken ADD as the questionable diagnosis it would have seemed less offensive than seeming to question another syndrome. That would have seemed more logical to me, as thats what you are concerned about in your future kids. But I dunno, maybe that wouldnt have made a difference.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

well, I agree this thread is a bit of a mess, but I feel I did learn a few things from it. and I just want to offer mmaramba another big







because you remind me alot of myself, asking big questions, processing alot of things verbally (or textually, as the case may be) and sticking your foot (keyboard) in your mouth in the process. i believe you when you said you meant no offense or harm, i believe you are trying to learn, trying to hash out some ideas or issues or thoughts you are having. I relate to your subsequent explanations (and the confusion they add, as Finch noted, lol) but one thing i've learned is that if a thread is that hurtful to that many people, it's just not worth it.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Thanks, Piglet...

Here's to better threads in the future!

Though I do think that I learned a *lot* from this one, too.


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