# CIO in the car and I HATE IT!!!



## Tmama (Nov 6, 2010)

This is related to my Baby Hates the Car post (copied and pasted below)

Most importantly to me, I just want to know, is this the same as CIO??? This is what KILLS me the most! DS1's camp is 20 minutes away. Add it up, thats 20 minutes both ways TWICE a day (thankfully only 2 days a week though) but thats 80 minutes in one day! Granted, I take him out and soothe him before we turn around and go back home but still...he's only 3 months old and I would never ever ever make a baby CIO regardless of age...but feel worse with how young he is. I can't do this to him anymore!!!! I'm so upset right now...







The way he looks up at me when I go to take him out, the tears in his eyes. I'm crying typing this, I can't do this to him anymore, this poor innocent baby screaming bloody murder in my back seat...

Sorry, I'm just at my wits end here and I just don't see it getting better right now...my 4 yo just asked me why I'm crying so I have to go put on a happy face for him...

This is my copied and pasted post from earlier:

My 3 month old LITERALLY screams in the car from the moment you pull out of the driveway until you get the car seat out of the car. It's not the seat. I've put him in it many of times with him smiling and to click him into the base in the car and he is fine. Start the car...SCREAMING begins. No exaggeration here. I've tried a mirror, no mirror, I've tried putting him in the car in a deep sleep. How do I shut the door without waking him? Thats where that one went wrong. I've fallen into a tiny depression because of it. I can't stay home since it's not fair to my 4 year old so whats a mama to do? I have no idea. I'm starting to get desperate and think to install a DVD player for him back there though I hate that idea entirely...but what if it works? It may be worth the tiny bit of TV for a baby for a distraction so I can actually drive somewhere and talk to my 4 year old without tears in my voice. It shakes me. I'm an attachment parent and babywear a lot and a lot of folks have asked if that could be why since he is always attached to me. So obviously, it's difficult for me to listen to crying - no matter what your parenting style - who can bare the sound of your baby screaming 20 + minutes straight? I can't. Pulling over and soothing does nothing because when its time to put him back in the seat, it starts all over again. I have to drive my 4 year old to camp (he loves camp and it's good for him right now) and it's 20 minutes away! I get there and then have to take baby out, soothe, breastfeed, start all over again to go home. It's horrible. I noticed it starts as soon as the car starts to move a bit. He could be fine for a minute or two but then BOOM the screaming begins. I'm so screwed if this is how it will be until he is at least 2 to FF in the seat if rear facing is what is freaking him out. It's almost as if he can sense he is moving and maybe the backwards movement is it? I will also add that 2 weeks ago it was hit or miss, we would have a few here and there moments in the car where he wouldnt cry at all.

So...anyone got any insight on this?


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

My DD was exactly like this. I do not believe it is b/c he is RF b/c she is almost 2 and still RF and is fine now. There really is not much you can do. To help ease my mommy guilt and to try and let her know she was not alone I would talk and sing to her while driving.

I would just say simple things like "Almost there hunny" or "We've got 3 more lights to get through" things like that...whenever she was still upset and we were almost home I would slowly count to 10 with 10 being me opening the door to get her out. She still looks forward to this in the car!

I still struggle with whether to call that CIO or not b/c well you are driving, in there with him but well he doesn't care you still aren't attending to him. For what it's worth he can smell you up to 15ft if you are BFing lol That's what I would tell myself "at least she can smell me" lol

Oh yeah I always told her "Mommy can't pick you up b/c we are in the car and I am so sorry but it's for your safety" OBVS she can not "understand" that but IDK seems to have made us feel a bit better.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Yes, it truly is awful & upsetting for everyone! But I truly do NOT believe it is cio. With cio no one is around, there is no attempt to soothe. In the car your older child is within view (I'm assuming) at least half of this drive time so dc can visually see someone & they can hear your voice & reassurance.

FWIW - we had some AWFUL drives with ds but it did get better & he became VERY good in the car.

We didn't use a soother otherwise but in the car was the one place we did use for awhile.


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## MrsSurplus (Dec 30, 2005)

My oldest 3 children LOVED the carseat; youngest 3 HATED it when they were about 3 months to 5 months. We go to church 30 minutes away and each one would cry the whole time there and back. It was SO stressful! However, I do NOT view it as CIO because there's nothing else I can do. You CAN go pick up a child out of a crib - but you legally can't take your child out of his carseat while the car is in motion. AND, the intentions are different. I'm not strapping a child in his carseat and thinking, "you're just going to have to learn to like this because mommy needs you to" but "we HAVE to go somewhere; I know you don't like your carseat and I feel for you, but it's the safest place for you while we're driving." Totally different things. IMHO, CIO is about ME; requiring a child to ride in a carseat (even if they don't like it) is not - it's about my child's safety. He will outgrow it - I promise. In the meantime, I would avoid the DVD player - not good at all for baby's developing brain!


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

my dd just hated the bucket seat, when we switched to a britax (still rfing) she shushed right up.


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## bezark (Mar 17, 2009)

I think some kids just go through this stage. For DS it was from 3 weeks until about 3-4 months. It was awful. I cried every time we went anywhere. He cried so hard he vomited. It was rough.
One day though, he just outgrew it. Nothing changed except his reaction. He's 27 months now, still RFing, and LOVES the car. 2 hours to the mountains is his idea of a good time.
I agree with PPs- it's heartbreaking, I know, but i don't think it's at all comparable to CIO.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mama why is this affecting you so much? why is it reducing you to depression? why is the crying triggering? you need to look into this. this has nothing to do with your baby. this has to do with you. and your answer might lie right there.

you have one other child to take care of. why are you giving your other child so much power over you.

please dont feel i am writing this off. i am just trying to imagine if you had my child instead of yours. you would be a complete mess, unable to take care of both your kids.

crying was a big part of the first few months of dd's life. yes i was torn up but i had to act and honestly between a broken marriage, working i did not have the support of anyone (yes neither from my then dh) and so i just did not have the freedom of being depressed.

do you have undiagnosed PPD? is your child's crying triggering something? would it be helpful to see a therapist?

the key here to me is - not how to find ways to stop your son crying - but you. how to help you cope with your child crying.

what is its a worst case scenario? what is your son is crying from the pain of chemotherapy? how are you going to function then mama? i never want to wish that on any mama. ever.


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## Tmama (Nov 6, 2010)

I think I did have baby blues but I honestly don't think it's PPD...but its more that I just feel so shaken when I hear him cry for a long period of time. I know how damaging it can be to a baby's brain crying that long and thats the part I think about. The (possible) damage caused by crying so hard. His hands are shaking by the time I get him out, his eyes are welled up and his face is beat red. How can I not let that affect me?

When I wrote this post I just got back and just got him calm and he was in my mei tei as I typed and I was really fed up. It's been almost 3 weeks of this every time I leave the house and I just feel so saddened that he hates the car and screams that much. Think about it, it's almost like I feel like I can't go anywhere. Now, I know I can, and I have to, but it feels like I can't. For instance, DH suggested we go to the beach today. Thats 25-30 minutes. Not ideal but...it is what it is, I guess.

I do have days where I just turn up the radio and talk to my 4yo over it. I just sort of pretend I can't hear it and reach my destination. Other days, like yesterday, where I truly put in so much effort to keep him asleep and for it to fail was so frustrating. I don't know, I'm rambling, maybe it's frustration combined with me feeling so bad for the baby.

I guess I just need to toughen up, huh? I'm going to put my best face forward and just deal with it, I swear, but I guess I vented a bit much here. I think after I wrote this post, I almost felt better...like it was just talking and getting my feelings out. Still sucks to hear a young baby scream but I know it could always be worse...he is healthy and that is what is truly most important.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Not CIO. He will get over it and it will not kill him to cry while you do what you have to do. I think that getting it over with and not prolonging the journey is the best thing.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

It has been a long time, but, wow, do I remember crying in the car. It was awful! It did not help that any time I complained about it people would say "but infants usually love the car!". GAHHHH.

Nothing really helped. Putting up a sun blocker did a bit as the sun was getting in their eyes. I would occasionally put baby in the carseat and nurse baby in the seat hoping he/she would go to sleep there. It worked sometimes.

You will get through this and it will end.

Kathy


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

CIO is an intentional attempt to teach a baby to get used to not having cries responded to. A baby crying in the car is an unfortunate example of how babies are not always going to be happy, but it isn't something you're doing intentionally to teach him anything. You are trying to minimize it when you can. Babies even cry in arms a lot, and that isn't CIO despite how awful they feel when crying. The fact is that babies are human and have the same range of emotions of all humans, but have fewer ways to express their emotions so much comes out in cries. Respond as much as you are able, but unfortunately there will be times he will cry despite your best efforts, and there's no point in feeling so awful about it if it's outside of your control. Just do your best and try to be at peace with those things beyond you. I bet it's over half of babies who go through this stage, and they all end up OK in the end. Minimize driving where you are able to, give him verbal cues that you're there and love him, try music or whatever might help him as much as you can, and understand that despite your best efforts, he doesn't like the car and will be unhappy some to all of the time he is in the car. I honestly think you're doing a good job dealing with it as well as you can, and you should cut yourself a ton of slack. Hold in there!


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> mama why is this affecting you so much? why is it reducing you to depression? why is the crying triggering? you need to look into this. this has nothing to do with your baby. this has to do with you. and your answer might lie right there.
> 
> ...


This is really not helpful. Of course the op is upset when her child is inconsolable- that is being a loving, compassionate mother! It is really insensitive to suggest that someone must be wrong with her for reacting to her child's discomfort and imply she isn't properly caring for the older child because she is concerned about the younger. Why in the world should this mother coming to us in desperation be attacked for having those emotions?

I'm sorry, but to people who have dealt with PPD, hearing that someone "didn't have the freedom to be depressed" is so over the top offensive. I guess we should thank our lucky stars that life was easy enough to squeeze that depression in there.









OP, I've had two car criers and it is such a helpless feeling. Everything inside you is screaming to hold your baby and it just isn't an option! There is nothing wrong with feeling upset when your child is upset. That is natural! I promise you it will get better eventually. I know that doesn't make it easier in the meantime...hang in there mama


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Agatha_Ann*
> 
> This is really not helpful. Of course the op is upset when her child is inconsolable- that is being a loving, compassionate mother! It is really insensitive to suggest that someone must be wrong with her for reacting to her child's discomfort and imply she isn't properly caring for the older child because she is concerned about the younger. Why in the world should this mother coming to us in desperation be attacked for having those emotions?
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this. I was kind of shocked at how insensitive and dismissive that post was.

My second was a car crier for a while and it sucked! It does make you feel trapped and guilty.

I tried different things until I found something that worked, which seemed to be different every day! Some things that I had in my bag of tricks were a CD with ocean sounds, a CD of lullabies, a kids' music CD, and a CD of kids' stories read by a child with the cutest voice ever (they are free podcasts on iTunes - search for www.bigstorytime.com on iTunes). It seemed that having a different "voice" for DD to hear helped distract her from being upset. Some days it worked better than other, and I would just cycle through them.

Hang in there. It's so hard, but your son won't do this forever. And it's definitely not CIO. He knows you are there, he can hear your voice.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

1.) It's definitely not CIO.

2.) I know a LOT of babies have this issue with the car, if that helps any. My daughter did, too. She would cry like she was dying in her carseat and when I tried to give her a bath. She's 11 months now and is over both things. But when it was happening, I talked to a lot of people about it because I bothered me. Experienced mamas and my pediatrician all assured me it is REALLY normal.

3.) I don't think meemee's post was meant to be negative like some of y'all are making it out to be.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

baby's brain. AHA!!!! so that is what is at the base of your concerns. THIS is what is your underlying worry is. an hour of crying a day affect the brain? so every time you are in the car you hold yourself responsible for how it might affect your baby's brain. i dont know.i am not a scientist. i have read and studied some of what our species survival tactics are, but lets try to think of this logically shall we? is this what you have read in your research for CIO and its worrying you that it might forever scar your child? I think the human baby is meant to have such a intense helpless cry so that no one can ignore them. i think crying by yourself in a locked room - yes its bad. because with that crying also comes feelings of abandonment and rejection. but with loving people around the baby i dont think it makes them feel that abandoned. if that is your concern then perhaps a half hour crying then a 10 minute break and then another half hour crying would be good wouldnt it? instead of a continuous focused one hour crying getting the blood pressure up and all that?

mama mothers with colicky babies and high needs baby they deal with HOURS of intense crying where the baby is RED, throwing up and then cant calm down - as the mamas try to find something to calm their babies down. there are many mamas on this board with children like them. has that affected them. speaking for myself i can say perhaps it might make them clingy? so they need to hold your skirt tales a little bit more? nothing else has particularly stood out for my child.

if you are looking at the development of man look at how crying changes at 3 months or so. you get that sad face, lips upturned totally pull at your heartstrings look your baby gets. i think that's our species survival mode because perhaps the screaming now frustrates our parents so they now have to think of other ways to be taken care of. amazing isnt it?!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tmama*
> 
> I guess I just need to toughen up, huh?
> 
> ...


i did not mean to offend those of you who have suffered from PPD. it was not a insensitive comment. there are two forms of depression (i am not sure exactly what they are called). the need medicine kind of depression where there is no avoiding it. and then there is the circumstantial depression where your situation is making you depressed and if you keep giving in it does turn into the need medicine kind of depression. when you have PPD you dont have a choice. when you have the circumstantial type you absolutely have a choice - of falling into the abyss or always pushing it away.

i was in the circumstantial one. and so i had a choice of pushing it away. because i had no, nada, zilch support. dh was overwhelmed with a baby and he wanted out. it was a matter of when. to deal with his feelings he was already emotionally abusing me and seeing other people. i knew i was on my own. completely. and the only thing this screaming HNs baby had was me. so no i could not giving into the depression i was already in and let it get deeper.

thank you coffeegirl. it wasnt meant to be.


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

I can completely relate. DD hated the car with a passion from 3 weeks to about 4 months. She still would rather not be in it, but tolerates it...ok. There have been a few occasions where we both had breakdowns. I knew that, even though she could hear me, she was distressed because she couldn't SEE me. Even with a mirror (which only shows the back of my head and the little sliver of face from the rearview mirror), she would panic because out of sight=not there. She was and is so used to being near my body, the car is a real shock. My fear was not so much brain damage, but her feeling abandoned and developing a car anxiety. She's finally at an age where she understands that I am actually there with her when I speak to her. It helps to reach around her seat and caress her face; and when possible, I just sit in the back with her, especially on long trips. I don't think there is a need to 'toughen up'. Continue showing empathy and concern for your baby when he's upset in the car, sing/talk/do whatever to help, and know you are doing the best you can for him in the situation. He HAS to be in his seat for safety, and you HAVE to go wherever it is you are going. *hugs*


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## Tmama (Nov 6, 2010)

I wouldn't exactly say the brain is the base of my concern but it's in the back of my head amongst feeling horrible that he is screaming for a long period ( and thank goodness it's not hours like colic...so in that perspective, I feel silly) but I'm not back there with him, so it's almost as if he's alone.

He's three months, not weeks, if that makes any difference. I will toughen up. I think I have for the most part as of late but I have days that I just feel so worn from it. I wish I could just run an errand or two whenever I wanted to!
I know it will get better...

Thanks everyone for listening!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

My dd was a carseat hater and I never did find a solution. When she was able to eat in the car and FF it helped a lot. I planned my errands around each other so we could keep the trama to one or two days and really just stuck to the essentials even then so I could make the trips as short as possible. I sang and talked to her for the whole drive. We walked and took the bus as much as possible as well. How long is the daycamp? Is there a mall or coffee shop close by that you could go into while you wait for your son to be done so you don't have to make the trip four times? Is taking the bus a practical solution? Are there things closer to home that your son can participate in? I don't think that what you are doing is CIO but you may all feel more peace of mind if you can find other alternatives.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> baby's brain. AHA!!!! so that is what is at the base of your concerns. THIS is what is your underlying worry is. an hour of crying a day affect the brain? so every time you are in the car you hold yourself responsible for how it might affect your baby's brain. i dont know.i am not a scientist. i have read and studied some of what our species survival tactics are, but lets try to think of this logically shall we? is this what you have read in your research for CIO and its worrying you that it might forever scar your child? I think the human baby is meant to have such a intense helpless cry so that no one can ignore them. i think crying by yourself in a locked room - yes its bad. because with that crying also comes feelings of abandonment and rejection. but with loving people around the baby i dont think it makes them feel that abandoned. if that is your concern then perhaps a half hour crying then a 10 minute break and then another half hour crying would be good wouldnt it? instead of a continuous focused one hour crying getting the blood pressure up and all that?
> 
> ...


This is still ridiculously offensive. DEPRESSION IS NOT A CHOICE. I mean, really? I don't even know what to say to that. It's also in NO WAY helpful to a mother who is clearly torn up over hearing her baby cry.

Anyhow, to the OP - I had a car screaming baby, too, and it really was awful. I was lucky in that he was my first, so I didn't have to be driving older kids around. I avoided driving as much as I could, but I know that's harder when you have older kids. Is he still in a bucket seat? Some babies do a lot better in a convertible - the shape is different, they can see more, etc. That didn't help mine, but I've heard a lot of others say it has helped them, so that might be a good place to start. Talking to him, singing to him, putting on music that YOU like to help you stay calm, etc. If you think the DVD player would help, I don't think there's any shame in using that tool. In the end, though, you're not going to be doing your baby harm by attending to the needs of your other child by getting him to camp. I completely understand why you get stressed by it - we're supposed to get stressed out and frantic to help our babies when they cry. But your baby is not going to get brain damage from crying in the car. Your baby won't feel abandoned - you're right there talking to him, singing to him, comforting him, etc. There's a huge difference between this and leaving a three month old to cry in the dark alone because you decided it's bed time, you know?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> baby's brain. AHA!!!! so that is what is at the base of your concerns. THIS is what is your underlying worry is. an hour of crying a day affect the brain? so every time you are in the car you hold yourself responsible for how it might affect your baby's brain. i dont know.i am not a scientist. i have read and studied some of what our species survival tactics are, but lets try to think of this logically shall we? is this what you have read in your research for CIO and its worrying you that it might forever scar your child? I think the human baby is meant to have such a intense helpless cry so that no one can ignore them. i think crying by yourself in a locked room - yes its bad. because with that crying also comes feelings of abandonment and rejection. but with loving people around the baby i dont think it makes them feel that abandoned. if that is your concern then perhaps a half hour crying then a 10 minute break and then another half hour crying would be good wouldnt it? instead of a continuous focused one hour crying getting the blood pressure up and all that?
> 
> ...


Good points about the different kinds of crying and the circumstances surrounding them, and the mama's intent being important. In any case I have never bought the "crying will give your baby brain damage" thing.

But about the two different kinds of depresison you're talking about....in light of that, and the "I didn't have the freedom to be depressed" comment (which I missed on my first reading), I do think the sentiment is somewhat insensitive, although I believe you don't mean it to be. Maybe there are two, or more, kinds of being depressed for new mothes. But lay people, espeically new moms who are stressed and sleep-deprived, aren't really qualified to tell whether the depression they're feeling is the circumstantial kind that they have a "choice" about, or the more valid (?) chemical-inbalance kind that they don't. I think PPD is usually a combo of both. Part of the disease is that when you're under that rock, you can't see a way to get out. Even if it might seem clear to others. You kwim?


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## NoraFlood (Dec 21, 2008)

My son had this exact issue, and it about drove me insane. I totally understand how you feel. My son is 7 months old now and totally fine in the car, but for about 3.5 months he would SCREAM anytime he had to ride anywhere. Is your baby in a bucket seat? For us, changing from the bucket to a convertible seat made all the difference--I guess the angle in the bucket was uncomfortable.


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## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

OH how I remember those days. DD hated the car so much. Obviously we minimized trips and tried to have someone sit back there with her. Sometimes you just have to go though. It got a lot better when we switched DD to a convertible seat. The infant bucket was just awful. It also got better when we started giving her snacks. I know that doesn't help with an itsy bitsy baby, but it will gt better eventually.


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## JTA Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

My older son was like that. Hated car rides. It turns out that he gets carsick easily, and he's normally anxious when he can't see mom/dad. So rearfacing exacerbated the issue.

A baby's cry is supposed to elicit that reaction from you. It's a survival of the species thing. At 3 weeks old, you baby is also really young. He doesn't know/doesn't have the ability to understand that hearing your voice=you being there.When he's older, around 6ish months, he gains that knowledge that even though he can't see you, you are still there. At that stage, singing to him will help, at least it did with me.

I don't view it as CIO because your baby is not alone. He is with you, his brother, and not in some room alone in the dark. My son would scream his head off just like your lo is, and he is an incredibly bright almost-4 year old. Always has been. The crying did not damage him.

To the PP who talked about PPD being something she didn't have the 'luxury' of having...I cannot say what I really want to say to you, because it would be a UAV. However, the 20-30% of postpartum women who have it (btw, this is JUST the reported number, the real number is higher) would love to know this. In fact, I would have loved to know this. I mean, intrusive thoughts, suicidal thoughts, the constant panic attacks, high anxiety, inability to eat/sleep, sure was fun! In fact, so fun I wish every mom had the luxury of going through it!!!









To the OP, it is too early to know if you even have PPD. And please ignore everything that the above mentioned poster has told you. It's insensitive and unhelpful AND untrue. Women who see their babies crying with colic, chemo etc are feeling just as horrible as you are. Jeez, like now there's supposed to be some continuum of feelings we are supposed to feel based on others' reactions to it. The fact that you are reacting strongly to his cries shows how in-tune of a mother you are. You are very connected to him. If it didn't bother you at all, I'd be very worried about the level of attachment you have to him.










This too shall pass. And it WILL get better. How many teenagers do you see screaming during an entire car ride?









Ami


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I am so, so sorry! It is just awful. My daughter was the same way, and it just... I pulled over a few times and held her and cried with her, but I don't know how helpful that is. It's just horrible. Of course you are upset!

Do you think that even the Big Evil TV, just for trips, might work?

I don't know if it would have with my daughter, but I kinda wish I'd tried it a bit sooner! ANYTHING! Just for in the car so they aren't screaming. Big hugs to you and hang in there!


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

OP, I can relate. My DS went through a phase where he hated the car, especially if we drove in the dark. I remember dreading having to get in the car to go somewhere. I generally tried singing or talking to him during the car ride so that he knew I was near, although it didn't really calm him. I did not think we were CIO though. Sometimes a baby cannot have his needs met right away and they have to wait, and it's ok, especially if you can talk to him. I think I was more emotionally scared by the process than DS was, even after he stopped being upset in the car I dreaded it for a while, but he did grow out of it after a few months. It WILL get better.
DS's car hating period lasted a few months (I think from between 2 and 5 months mostly)


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm sorry mama, I know it's hard to listen to your baby scream and feel like you can't do anything to help them. a couple of thing that could help that haven't been suggested: a pacifier for in the car, a special car toy or lovely (right now my 3 month old likes to be able to hold onto a receiving blanket), my little guy likes the windows down, DD had a stuffed dog that sat on the seat back for her to talk to. he could also be getting a little carsick, maybe some of the colic relief remedies could help with that?


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## Brandybutter (Jun 5, 2011)

You are empathic and your connection to your baby is extremely strong. This is a VERY GOOD thing!!

My DS hated the car from the very beginning. We never had him in the infant seat outside of the car and people would tell me that was the problem, that I had to train him in the house. I would politely nod, but I was NOT okay with doing that.

I'd say his anxiety peaked around 6 mo. and has gradually become better since then. I think it did help that we switched him to a convertible car seat that looks much more comfortable. Also, our pediatrician said it was okay to switch him to FF at 12 mo since he's extremely tall (of course, most parents should be encouraged to keep babies RF as long as possible!) He likes to see where we're going, but even at 16 mo, he needs me in the back for long car trips and will only fall asleep without crying if I sit back there and nurse him while my husband drives. You need a certain anatomy and flexibility to do this









I remember feeling truly sick when my son would cry back there as an infant. I knew that it was not natural for a baby to move this fast backwards! And it made me feel worse knowing that I could fix it in an instant by getting him out, or by avoiding car trips period. Again, I think it's very good that you empathize with your baby as well, that you feel what he may be feeling. Stay open and sensitive. As my DS's anxiety lessened and as I could see that he was starting to understand more, I was able to tolerate it more. I don't think I "toughened up", but rather, I was still empathizing and could see that there was a little bit more curiosity about the world from his side and he wasn't as confused. Now I feel for you! You will both get through this! Take care...


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> CIO is an intentional attempt to teach a baby to get used to not having cries responded to. A baby crying in the car is an unfortunate example of how babies are not always going to be happy, but it isn't something you're doing intentionally to teach him anything. You are trying to minimize it when you can. *Babies even cry in arms a lot, and that isn't CIO despite how awful they feel when crying. The fact is that babies are human and have the same range of emotions of all humans, but have fewer ways to express their emotions so much comes out in cries. Respond as much as you are able, but unfortunately there will be times he will cry despite your best efforts, and there's no point in feeling so awful about it if it's outside of your control. Just do your best and try to be at peace with those things beyond you.*


I absolutely positively agree.

At this point (DS is 7) I can't remember when the car-crying stopped (could have been around 4 months when he outgrew his Snugride by height and went into the Roundabout, but I can't be sure), but for what FELT like 18 million years he would cry in the car. I would sing and talk and laugh and sometimes cry with him, and then would start singing again... When I could, I would somehow reach my arm back there and touch his head, or his hand if he would put his hand up for me. That was not easy, as we had a stickshift then. (he still likes it when I hold his hand while I drive)

He also would cry and cry sometimes in our arms. No solid reason. No colic, no belly problems, nothing sticking him clothing-wise, dry dipe, no rashes, full but not too full belly...it was like the weight of the world hit his wee shoulders sometimes and he would just sob... What to do but to hold him?

Babies dealing with true CIO don't have someone singing to them, holding them, talking to them, etc etc. They are *alone*. There's a huge difference.

In all likelihood this will change, and someday you'll forget when it happened exactly...


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## SkyMomma (Jul 13, 2006)

I agree with pp that have congratulated you on your connection to you LO...

Both my DSs hated the car when they were tiny, but DS1 had an extreme response. A panicked, shrieking, throw-up on himself response that was very different than the kind of crying he did (often, he was very intense) in arms. I DO think it's a different experience to cry while being held, than crying while strapped into a hard, plastic device, not being able to feel or see your mama. Even if you can hear her calming voice, you can't really touch her. Is it CIO? I understand previous posts that emphasize the difference in intention from the perspective of the parents, but how different does it feel to that tiny baby?

I don't really have an answer...but I couldn't stand listening to my DS's screams, so I changed the way we lived. If it was so painful for me to listen to him, how painful must it have been for him to experience? We stopped driving places, walked everywhere (they both loved being walked carried close to me). When I had to drive somewhere, I got someone else to drive and I sat in the back & nursed my LO's (which helped immensely). I wore my baby & grocery shopped with a cart. If we were traveling any distance, we did it at night, after I nursed the baby to sleep. That meant that DS1 had to trek to school and back on the train and bus for a year, and that we missed some trips to the beach & woods...but in the grand scheme of things those tender early times are such a very short time. Did we miss anything by bypassing our car? Just alot of discomfort. I offer you the suggestion of skipping camp this year, or arrange for rides for your older child. Keep closer to home. Find ways to avoid the car as much as possible. Your baby, and your own feelings, are telling you something. Give yourself permission to listen.


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## bella99 (Sep 25, 2008)

My almost 6 month old does well in the car sometimes, and then other times, nothing makes her happy, even if an adult sits where she can see them and where they can touch her. There have been times where she has screamed for 45 minutes straight (with me sitting in the car within sight of her and stroking her legs and arms). We talk to her, touch her if we can, sing her songs, etc.

But we noticed a couple of things about this. The first is that if we pull over, whether I am the driver or not, and I try to nurse her, she's not interested. She stops crying as soon as she gets out of the carseat but is immediately smiling and cooing at us. Same thing when the trip is over, whether it's been 10 minutes of screaming or 30. As soon as she is out of the seat, she's completely calm and smiling, and sometimes there are not tears. I think most of the time when it happens, she's just ticked about being in there and is voicing her displeasure.

It has stressed me out and has occasionally reduced me to tears, and I don't know why sometimes she's fine and sleeps or plays with her toys and while sometimes she seems completely inconsolable, but we do what we can to reduce the instances and to make her feel better, but, in general, we just go about our daily lives and hope she'll grow out of it.

Although cute story. The other day she was screaming and had been screaming for about 10 minutes. I could hear my 2.5 year old say to her "It's ok baby, it's ok, I promise", and when that didn't work, my toddler said to me "Mommy, she needs a boob".


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

This is truly not CIO, more a matter of baby temperament. I remember feeling the same way with DS1, getting in the back seat with him whenever DH was there to drive, wondering if he'd ever feel better, he wouldn't even cry to sleep. He basically just had to grow out of it, there was nothing we could do, and sometimes driving was necessary. We did try to avoid unnecessary trips and get everything done at once, and do on foot what we could, but that was about it. DD could only fall asleep with the car - go figure! Some babies just hate driving, and some love it.


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## icy02 (Oct 28, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyMomma*
> 
> I agree with pp that have congratulated you on your connection to you LO...
> 
> ...


Both my kids were horrible in the car. DS2 was even worse than DS1 (and I never thought that was possible). DS1 screamed off and on until about 6 months. DS2 screamed in the car continuously from 2 weeks to 8 months. It was honestly horrible. The only time he wasnt screaming was when I was bent over and squished between two car seats in our tiny Prius breastfeeding him as my DH drove. Not even sitting in the backseat helped him. He just wanted to be held. all. day. long.

For me (and probably) for many others giving up driving is not an option. I like my freedom and driving gives me freedom. Maybe I'm just not good enough of a mom to give up that much of my life... It really was horrible listening to him scream for those months. I will say that now he is perfect in the car







He does not seem traumatized from his early experience in the car at all.

As your LO gets older keep new interesting toys just for the car. As my DS2 got older I would reach back and rotate his toys as he got fussy. That always worked well for short trips. Also, as he got older he loved kids music. Try a kids or soothing Reaching back and touching my baby or sitting in the backseat with him didn't seem to help. In fact, he usually got more worked up cause he didn't understand why I couldn't pick him up.

You are not letting your LO CIO!!!! You are keeping him safe by keeping him in his car seat. And I agree with the OP that your 4 yr old needs camp. It would be unfair to take it away because the baby doesn't like the car. It might just cause sibling contempt.

I know this is a really frustrating time. Big hugs to you momma! Things will get better!


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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Is there no other way to get your older child to camp? Have you checked to see if another mother would drive once a week and you drive their kid once a week? Or is there possibly a bus that goes near the camp?

When my now 3.5 yo dd was under one and a half she hated the car and cried the whole time. I opted to take the bus most places and even sold the car I had at the time (needed the money for rent too since I wasn't working with a newborn) taking the bus added more time but it made me see things in a much more simple manner. Aside from the occassional emergency when I would get a ride from my roomate I just avoided having her go into a car unless it was really necessary. Granted when I took her on a loooong road trip when she was 1.5 there were a few days when all she did was cry from the carseat but I think any baby would have done that even if they had been crying in a carseat for their whole first year...


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## heathenmom (Mar 9, 2005)

OP, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. My first HATED the car; the second wasn't quite so bad, and so far (knock wood) #3 seems to do MUCH better than his sisters. The only thing that saved my sanity was a swaddle blanket that was designed for using in a carseat. I still vividly remember the day I bought it. The trip TO the store was horrible; she screamed the entire way. The trip home ... I was going to take the blanket home and wash it first, but she was so hysterical she was vomiting (again), so I pulled over, swaddled her up, and she was fine the rest of the trip. I don't know if you've tried swaddling your baby, but I HIGHLY recommend it.


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

no, you don't have to "toughen up" you have to find a way to soothe your child. The child does not understand, all they know is that they have a need and there is no one in their vision taking care of that need. It is not the same INTENTION as CIO, but it can have the same consequences. I say this because a newborn has NO concept of reality. He might hear your voice, but he doesn't see you and therefore doesn't get it. If someone is next to them,, a little better but they still don't understand why you won't just pick them up and give them the attention they need. Strapping our children in where they can't see us or be held might be safe, but that doesn't make it natural. You can NOT make a newborn or many toddlers even understand why they have to be strapped into this weird torture device.

My third son got a paci for this very reason. It was his first car ride with no siblings in the back with him, he cried and cried I kept talking to him and the moment I could we stopped and I held him. Cried and cried again - next stop was the store for a paci.

Pacifiers

Swaddling

Toys

songs

make sure they have a full tummy, clean diaper beforehand

swaddle!

can someone stay with the baby? Or go with you so there is someone back there with them? Can you take a bus?


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

Yes, it is not always practical in every situation to just stay home; but in this case--- since this is not a matter of pure survival, I would seriously consider just canceling camp for your older DS. He's young enough that he could take the disappointment (if there is any) somewhat in stride. It isn't CIO, but I agree with pp it can have the same consequences for your young one. It's so tough but it is a phase, and a fleeting phase for many babies. *hugs*


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

I would not cancel camp. It is hard enough when children think that the baby always comes first and it is not true. Canceling the camp might cause resentment and jealousy issues. I don't understand how crying for a few minutes is harmful. For hours on end, sure. But for a few minutes?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't know. I think it's kind of harsh to assume that the older son can just deal with his disappointment about not getting to go to camp (which, from my own childhood memories, was a Big Deal in the summers). At the same time, you don't know if crying in the car rides will have any lasting effect on the baby, and all the anecdotal evidence in this thread alone says no.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> no, you don't have to "toughen up" you have to find a way to soothe your child. The child does not understand, all they know is that they have a need and there is no one in their vision taking care of that need. It is not the same INTENTION as CIO, but it can have the same consequences. I say this because a newborn has NO concept of reality. He might hear your voice, but he doesn't see you and therefore doesn't get it. If someone is next to them,, a little better but they still don't understand why you won't just pick them up and give them the attention they need. Strapping our children in where they can't see us or be held might be safe, but that doesn't make it natural. You can NOT make a newborn or many toddlers even understand why they have to be strapped into this weird torture device.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. CIO in a room by themselves, or CIO in a seat by themselves (while hearing a voice) is really no different, regardless of your intention. Although it might be a pita for a while, you might just have to stay home until your little one is more comfortable in the car. (I'm sure your older kiddo will turn out just fine being home-bound for 6 months or so.) Babies don't cry for no reason. Maybe the vibration of the car is frightening or painful for some reason. (Maybe try some chiro/CST to see if that helps?) But whatever the reason, your baby is sending you a signal that it NEEDS you. Not just your voice, but your physical presence. And your response is normal, not ppd







. Your maternal instincts are SUPPOSED to trigger you to jump at your baby's sign of pain/hunger/whatever. The fact that it's bothering you to hear your baby cry is a sign of your strong bond with your baby. If you continue to tune it out, you may become numb to those cues and weaken that bond.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> I completely agree. CIO in a room by themselves, or CIO in a seat by themselves (while hearing a voice) is really no different, regardless of your intention. Although it might be a pita for a while, you might just have to stay home until your little one is more comfortable in the car. (*I'm sure your older kiddo will turn out just fine being home-bound for 6 months or so.*) Babies don't cry for no reason. Maybe the vibration of the car is frightening or painful for some reason. (Maybe try some chiro/CST to see if that helps?) But whatever the reason, your baby is sending you a signal that it NEEDS you. Not just your voice, but your physical presence. And your response is normal, not ppd
> 
> ...


Seriously? Wow.

"So sorry, older DS. Sucks to be you....but the baby has needs right now and they come before your own needs. I'm sure you understand." That's what it sounds like you're saying.


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

I think the original poster would have to gauge her 4yo's own expectations and potential emotional response concerning camp and weigh that against her LO's need for mama during the drive. Maybe the OP might decide camp is meaningful enough to the older son to handle a little crying... but maybe not. I do not think it is harsh to suggest that the OP *consider* her older son missing out. Only she can weigh the options and make the choice appropriate for her family. I just wanted to put out there that maybe this could be avoided completely #shrug.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

That's just one place she drives, though. I know some people who live in big cities with good public transportation options have talked about walking or taking public tranportation, but many of us don't have an option to not drive for 6 months or a year. Driving isn't optional for me at all. Luckily, my child who didn't like the car is my first born so other children's activities weren't an issue. But I still had groceries, doctor appointments, and other non-optional errands. AND I had PPD with that one and simply had to get out to a support group regularly for my own mental health, and to help me be a better mom. I think the suggestion that she not drive for months on end is completely unrealistic, and she doesn't need to be saddled with guilt over something outside her control. Don't drive when you don't have to, but the older child shouldnt' be stuck at home for months on end either, and don't beat yourself up over something you can't control. Do what you can and be peace with that which is outside of your control.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> I completely agree. CIO in a room by themselves, or CIO in a seat by themselves (while hearing a voice) is really no different, regardless of your intention. Although it might be a pita for a while, you might just have to stay home until your little one is more comfortable in the car. (I'm sure your older kiddo will turn out just fine being home-bound for 6 months or so.) Babies don't cry for no reason. Maybe the vibration of the car is frightening or painful for some reason. (Maybe try some chiro/CST to see if that helps?) But whatever the reason, your baby is sending you a signal that it NEEDS you. Not just your voice, but your physical presence. And your response is normal, not ppd
> 
> ...


I completely disagree.

Look, babies are alone in the womb. Except that they hear their mothers' heartbeats and voices.

Babies who are sick (mine was in the NICU where we did as much holding as possible, but he had to be there and he had to be under the lights or he would have at least had permanent brain damage), babies whose mothers are sick (my mother was rehospitalized when I was an infant), etc. Not all these babies are doomed forever.

OP, I always sang to my babies in the car when they were upset. Of course it's not as good as holding them and not driving, but it is not the same at all as leaving them to learn to self-soothe. Intent matters. What is going on around the child matters. Even very young babies will respond to a parent's voice. You are not numbing yourself to your child's distress if you are soothing them (while driving safely) any more than if you are holding them and typing at the keyboard (a VERY UNNATURAL ACTIVITY) you are ruining your bond because you are thinking about a forum.

I think it might be helpful to look on this as a continuum rather than a black and white issue. There are degrees of soothing and comfort, and you offer your child the best you have at the time you can. That matters. Your baby will hear you.

Then you trust in allllllll the other hours of the day when the comfort you can offer is even better, the natural resilience of children (and I don't mean that in a "let's push it by leaving them for 12 hours in the dark), and the quality of your family and parenting. A loving, non-resentful sibling; a mother with the ability to go and get a tea if she needs one - these also are gifts to your child. Much support to you.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> Seriously? Wow.
> 
> "So sorry, older DS. Sucks to be you....but the baby has needs right now and they come before your own needs. I'm sure you understand." That's what it sounds like you're saying.


Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car.







It's a temporary situation, which is why I said I'm sure the older one will manage just fine being at home for a few months. Daily social outings are NOT A NEED. There are plenty of things that could be done at home or withing walking/bus distance (whichever is available, depending on your location) to keep an older child happy and fulfilled without causing trauma to the younger child.

eta: I'm not saying that the OP should NEVER drive. Obviously, there are times when you just have to. But the suggestion that "it's not fair" to keep the older child at home every day *temporarily* doesn't make any sense to me.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> I completely disagree.
> 
> Look, babies are alone in the womb. Except that they hear their mothers' heartbeats and voices.


Ummmmm.... they are connected to you. Part of your body. Touching you 24/7. That is not the same as just hearing your voice, sorry.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

first off ((hugs)) it is so so hard to listen to your baby cry, it is suppose to be. if it didn't upset you, there would be a problem. although normally i don't say this sort of stuff i would have to agree if there is anyway to not drive someplace i would do that. is there anyone close to you that wouldn't mind picking up your older child? (someone whose child is going to camp also?) is there a bus you can take (i know those take alot longer, but maybe baby could handle it better?) my kids LOVE the bus, so it could add to the fun of going to camp. lol if there is no other choice... gosh i don't know. i mean i get that the older child likes camp and should be able to go, but then the little one shouldn't have to cry like that either. so tuff sometimes.

anyway, you don't need to toughen up, your a good mama who has compassion for your child. the idea that you shouldn't be sad or upset by your baby crying in the car because he isn't getting chemo is just plain weird. so as long as your kid isn't dying you should be ok with sobbing for a car ride.

maybe a paci would help? maybe the TV?

our baby doesn't like the car either so i try to not take her if i can avoid it. or we take a bus. sometimes we do miss out, but it has gotten better. i sing to her (so do the other kids) and they talk to her for the car rides, and she sucks on my finger.

it does get better. ((hug))


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## JTA Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car.
> 
> ...


The OP said her son goes to camp 2 days out of the week. That's hardly daily.

Second, if the only socialization they get is to go out, then it IS a need. Humans are social creatures. Being cooped up in a house with only mom, a young baby and a 4 year old for half a year is insane.

AP is not about extremes. The OP is not a long distance truck driver. She's a mom of TWO. It's easier to move around heaven and earth with only one child. The fact is, with two, there will be times where one child does NOT get their needs met immediately. Or ever, if it's in direct conflict with the other child's need. My 4 yr old's need to snuggle all night long does not get met. Sure, I snuggle him, but definitely not all night. Same with the baby. I'm sure he'd love to be latched on all night long--not going to happen. Mom needs sleep and a good back.

The amount of crying, the actual circumstances around the crying, etc, make it definitely not CIO. A good mom is affected by her baby's cries. However, it doesn't mean that this natural mothering reaction indicates that something is harmful/serious. Moms are known to freak out over the tiniest things, even mom's of many do it. Just because I feel anxious when my son has the stomach bug doesn't mean I need to rush him to the hospital after the first vomit, kwim?

Ami


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

oh goodness, I can totally see why it affecting you. I think regardless of the rights and wrongs, regardless of what its doing to the babies brain-its going to mess with YOUR brain. We are programmed to respond to our infants and an hour of crying from your newborn is probably close to torture on a physiological level. I TOTALLY get why you are so stressed. Its not about logic, its about biology.

Its not CIO. Totally not. CIO has a whole lot of other baggage attatched. TBH, with 2+ kids, there is always going to be an amount of crying anyway. My first child almost never cried. My second one, 22 months later, did-because I had two sets of needs to meet. (my third child didn't so much but that was because I had a slightly bigger gap and she had two doting older siblings).

I'd use a pacifier, I'd use TV, I'd do whatever it takes. With 2+ kids, this is reality, making sure everyones needs are as close as possible to being met as best as possible. Someone needs to bring out an AP book for families with siblings, along the lines of "its ok just to do your best and you know what? your needs matter too"


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

oh just to add. OP, you will be the best barometer of whether this camp is a need or a want. I can see it both ways. For a kid who has just had their world shaken up with a new baby, going to a twice weekly camp might be really what they need at that moment. Or YOU might actually really need that time with just the new baby.

Just a thought-and I'm not in the US and don't totally get the whole camp thing-is there any way you can either car share or just hang around there for the rest of the day to minimise the trips? Just sit in a coffee shop or library or something?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Ummmmm.... they are connected to you. Part of your body. Touching you 24/7. That is not the same as just hearing your voice, sorry.


How do you know what it's like for them?

You don't. Scaring the OP as if she's abandoning her child in the car is totally uncalled for. Judgment like that -- when you have NO IDEA if it's harmful; there has NOT been research on kids crying in cars, and the research on crying in general is unclear -- is what makes people give up, get depressed, and because much worse parents for their kids. Women burn out and this is one reason why. Not only that but older kids are important too.

This discussion just highlights how anti-family AP can be when taken to extremes.


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## Goodmom2008 (Dec 14, 2008)

Just a lurker who saw your post. When my youngest was a newborn on, all she did was scream in the car. There wasn't anything I could do about it. She simply hated the car. This went on for a year. Once she went forward facing, it got a whole lot better. She also hated the stroller (slings are a wonderful invention) until she climbed into it at 12 months and pointed forward. She is 9 now, so I don't have the toddler issues anymore.

I just wanted to let you know it does get better as they get older.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

As for camp.....

Does your son want to go? Have you asked? Sometimes kids are neutral on things and we stress ourselves out getting them there for no great reason. I would ask him but I would not bring up the baby screaming at all.

If he is only half sold on going to camp I would quit. 80 minutes on days he goes to camp of screaming must be hard on everyone.

The OP is the only would who can decide whether going places is worth the angst.

As per whether it is CIO or not - meh. I do not really think of crying in those terms. I think it is best if babies can be soothed (obviously) or at least held in arms while they cry - but sometimes for a variety of reason that is not going to happen. Car drives are one - I would reduce driving with the baby in the car but sometimes car drives are going to happen. TBH (looking back on things) I wish I had driven a little less when my kids were in the screaming phase -or at least left them home with DP when I shopped, etc. It is a brief phase.

I do not think children are scarred by crying without being picked up on occasion. I doubt there are very many of us who have always, alway , always had our cries attended to - life does not work that way.


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## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

I think your son needs his camp and I think you need your son to be at camp, so you have a little time to slow down and focus on your baby. You are not damaging your baby because of those car rides. I'm 100% sure.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car.
> 
> ...


Other poeple have said it better, but....yeah, camp very well might be a need for the older child. I don't understand the attitude of assuming that's the older kids' needs and wants aren't as important as the baby's in order to worship at the altar of the "anti-CIO" sacred cow. Which, don't get me wrong....I think we can all get behind to some extent or another. But "serious turmoil"? You have no way of knowing that. And you and I have no idea how "temporary" this situation could or will be.

What if the baby NEVER get over screaming in the car...what would you suggest for the mom then when she's the only parent at home? That they never drive? Or does the "serious trauma" of the crying suddenly become ok at a certain age...?


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hannah32*
> 
> I think your son needs his camp and I think you need your son to be at camp, so you have a little time to slow down and focus on your baby. *You are not damaging your baby because of those car rides. I'm 100% sure.*


I reread the OP's comments on this thread. She did not say whether her son really loves/needs going, or whether she was feeling the strong need for some one-on-one time for the baby.

It may be that your post is the case (and I totally agree with you on the bolded part) but it is hard to know without further information.

Only the OP can know whether or not any trip is worth the angst and screaming (even if it is not harmful in the long term - it is very unpleasant for all involved) against the benefit of going where she is going.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car.
> 
> ...


I really disagree with this. When our youngest was born last year our twins were just finishing up their school year and we decided (after discussing it with them) to enroll them in A.M. summer camp. As you should know, it is pretty common for older siblings to have some mixed emotions when a new baby is introduced into the family, and it's incredibly important to be sensitive to their needs and balance them with the needs of the new baby. I'm really surprised that anyone could be so insensitive to the emotions of an adolescent child(ren) who may very well be quite stressed themselves by the changes that have taken place in their family by having a new baby who is likely (and understandably) taking away a good deal of the parents' attention from them.

My kids would have gone completely crazy if they have been cooped up in the house for so long (up to 6 months, that's an eternity for a 4 or 5 yo kid!) without getting out for any reasonable period of time. (Btw, getting the older two out of the house for a few hours a day definitely freed me up to spend some quality one on one time with the baby and bond with him more, which sure sounds like a positive to me.) They loved being in camp. they got to go to the pool and do fun activities and socialize with other kids their age, and it would have been really unfair and downright cruel to them to say, too bad for you, the baby doesn't like being in the car/stroller/carrier (which all made him scream at various times) so we aren't going anywhere ever again until we know the baby will never spend a second crying in any of these means of conveying him somewhere outside the house. Nope, sorry, Daddy has to leave for work long before camp starts so he can't take you, and we don't have anybody else who is willing to inconvenience themselves every day to take you back and forth to camp, so you lose. How horrible would that have been?

I also vehemently disagree that crying in the car is CIO or in any way deliterious to a baby's mental or neurogical well-being, but I'm quite certain that our systematically prioritizing preventing the baby from crying under any and all circumstances over the needs or even the wants of our older kids may very well have left a lasting and negative impression on them that could last a lifetime. Whenever he's in the car the baby sits directly behind me less than 3 feet away, and he can hear me the entire time. He also has had both of his brothers sitting on either side of him trying to comfort him whenever he cried as well. We did our best with the situation and the baby ended up being perfectly fine. It's hard enough as a parent to take care of a newborn and older children, let's not heap additional guilt and worry on them that they are permanently scarring their baby if they cry sometimes in the car.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> Other poeple have said it better, but....yeah, camp very well might be a need for the older child. *I don't understand the attitude of assuming that's the older kids' needs and wants aren't as important as the baby's in order to worship at the altar of the "anti-CIO" sacred cow.* Which, don't get me wrong....I think we can all get behind to some extent or another. But "serious turmoil"? You have no way of knowing that. And you and I have no idea how "temporary" this situation could or will be.
> 
> *What if the baby NEVER get over screaming in the car.*..what would you suggest for the mom then when she's the only parent at home? That they never drive? Or does the "serious trauma" of the crying suddenly become ok at a certain age...?


Bolds mine.

There seems to be a bit of an anti AP thing going on at MDC at the moment (totally ironic) but sometimes I think it spills over into advice. "Anti-CIO sacred cow???". That reads as offensive to me. There are some darn good reason not to do CIO that go well beyond trying to be crunchier-than-thou.

This mom is hurting. Have you read her posts? She is not doing so well with the baby screaming. Nowhere has she said the camp is important to her son. He might love and need it or he might not. Honestly if her kid really loves camp or she really wants some one on one time with the baby, I am totally behind her driving to camp. She, however, has not said how important the camp is to her family. Perhaps the fact that she is going to camp means you assume it is important to her, but my own btdt tells me it is not always the case. People sign up for things, etc, without really realising how much people are getting out of it.

OT (as I do not think it applies here): In multi-children families siblings do sacrifice for other siblings. That is reality. Older sibling are brought to kiddie stuff they find boring, or watch their siblings a little more than they should; younger siblings get dragged to one too many sporting events, etc, etc. One should minimize it - but that is about it. As long as one sibling is not doing more sacrificing in general and over the long term than another sibling, it's fine.

Lastly, numerous posters her have said their kids kids got over screaming in the car in a reasonable amount of time. I think all of my kids got over it in under a year. It is not going to last forever - and the OP should not assume it should (shudder).


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

OP, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I wanted to ask - does your 3mo hold toys yet? I know 3mo is a bit young for that, but once he starts holding toys, you might consider getting him a baby photo album or a baby picture frame and put your picture in it for him to look at while you're driving. Then, even though he can't see you, he can still see you, yk?

And yeah, the crying in the car thing totally SUCKS - my friends ds hates the car, even at 2yo now. His limit is 20min per day - after that he screams. She hates it, but they have to go places, and he's certainly not damaged. He's a delightful little guy, precious as can be, he just hates the car. Try not to worry about it, turn up the radio if that helps you, and give lots of snuggles when you reach your destination.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Bolds mine.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. You're right, "anti-CIO sacred cow " sounds very....snarky. I shouldn't post when I'm annoyed.

But there's nothing here, or in what I've said, that's anti-AP. I don't see where this ties in to any larger symptom you're seeing on the board. I've been here since long before the big change. In this thread it's the (IMO) somewhat callous dismissal of the older child's feelings and needs that I'm reacting to. A few posters are taking that stance because OF COURSE a baby crying should take priority over anything else, and they're throwing around words like "damage" and "trauma" (which are part of anti-CIO rhetoric-- fact.) Basically they're equating the OP's dilemma with CIO. I don't think that's fair or accurate. Opinions may vary.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

Just to add that I had 2 kids who cried constantly in the car, both until they were about a year old. It stopped. In the interim, we did everything we could to keep them out of the car. We usually took the bus or train places (it Did Us Good, my god we felt it doing us good ;-) ). Also, when they were out of the car I consciously did not put the baby in a pram if I could avoid it, but carried them in a sling. However, at the end of the day, needs must. It totally isn't CIO, CIO to my mind is more a mindset, its more about deciding that you will not meet your baby's needs which is very different to accepting that, for now, you have competing needs between your kids and your job is to work out which one's needs are more pressing (hey, welcome to having 2 kids!).


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car.
> 
> ...


Umm I have a child for whom getting out every day IS a need. And we live in an area where that need simply *can't* be fulfilled by walking or buses or whatever. I certainly wouldn't argue that the OP can evaluate whether camp is a want or a need for her son, but to make a sweeping generalization that "Daily social outings are NOT A NEED," is not accurate, nor is the assumption that everyone lives in an area where cars are optional.

Ironically, my needs-to-get-out DS is the same one who HATED the car for his first year and still struggles with it. Every day I had to weigh how badly he needed to get out (and myself, as well, I get severely depressed when I don't get out often enough) with his hatred of the car. Parenting involves making some really tough decisions, there is no need to place extra guilt and burden on a struggling mom because she is desperately trying to balance out the needs of everyone in the family!!! It's obvious in her posts that the OP already feels a lot of guilt, she doesn't need anyone else to add to it!

OP, if you are still around, I was wondering if you ever got to try driving with him in the convertible seat? It seems to have helped enough people that it may be worth a try if you haven't yet...


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry, I still say it's not a need. It's not like I'm saying that you have to make your 4yo sit in a chair, alone, in your living room all day.







There are plenty of things you can do at home to keep a child entertained- play a game, play in the yard (if you have one), visit the neighbors (if you have them), do a craft project, INVITE A FRIEND OVER, etc.

And I'm not judging at all. The OP plainly states that she HATES hearing her baby cry. And most of the posts on this thread are saying, _"It's ok- ignore your mama instinct and ignore the baby's screams. Baby will be fine."_ Sorry. I disagree. If your mama instinct tells you that it's not ok for baby, it's not ok for baby.

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair. I really don't understand the argument that one is ok and one is not. If your voice is comforting, then great- the baby will feel better and will stop screaming. If the baby is still screaming, then your voice was not enough to fulfill it's NEEDS at that moment.

Social outings = NOT A NEED

Emotional support for a child who is frightened/sad/angry/in pain = NEED


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I don't think anyone is saying to ignore her instincts. Many have offered various suggestions to help baby tolerate car rides better. And I do not agree that baby crying in the car -- with big brother in the seat beside him and mom talking or singing from the front seat -- is the same as laying alone in a dark room crying. And I still don't agree that social outings are not a need. Yes, some kids are very happy to stay home all day, but my DS completely loses it when we don't get out, and no, we don't have neighbors he can hang out with or whatever. Ugh this is annoying me, I shouldn't take it personally but for some reason I am.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Sorry, I still say it's not a need. It's not like I'm saying that you have to make your 4yo sit in a chair, alone, in your living room all day.
> 
> ...


You're certainly entitled to your personal opinion that social outings are not a need, but that's not going to stop other posters including myself from disagreeing with you. In my opinion, there is a real benefit for my kids to socializing with groups of their peers and camp meets that need in a way that a playdate does not. And a playdate at my house only increases the amount of work I have to do (if mom stays, then I have to entertain her and if she doesn't then I have to do additional work monitoring the playdate.) No way can I have a standing playdate every day at my house for my kids with their friends, and if I can't get the baby into the car/stroller/carrier without him crying then of course I'm (supposed to be?) precluded from taking the kids to their friends house for a playdate. And there are no kids my children's age in this neighborhood with whom mine can play and all of their friends live several blocks away, so sending them out in the yard to play with friends is out for us too (as it is for lots of other families.) My kids are absolutely miserable if they don't get nearly daily opportunities to see their friends and do stuff outside of this house, and I would really be selling them short if I didn't do my best to facilitate those opportunities for them.

I also think that the insistent conflating of CIO with crying in the car is only unfairly heaping additional guilt and worry on the OP and other parents in her situation. I know MDC technically doesn't host discussions regarding CIO, but the textbook Weissbluth method of CIO involves leaving a crying baby alone in a crib until such time as the baby stops crying. Furthermore, the parent or caregiver is not supposed to have any contact physically or verbally with the baby while he remains in his crib crying. A baby crying in a carseat 3 feet away where he can hear my reassuring voice and who may very well have other people like siblings sitting next to them the entire time attempting to comfort them is completely different from CIO.

I really believe, as do others participating in this discussion, that the OP needs some reassurance that she is not ruining her baby for life if he cries for a few minutes as well as reassurance as she tries to balance the needs of her older child with those of her new baby. The bottom line is that when we place too much pressure on ourselves to be perfect parents every second of every day we set ourselves up for failure and dissapointment, because it's an impossible standard to meet. OP, don't beat yourself up over this, you're are clearly a very loving and concerned parent who is trying to do the best for both of your children. You should be commended for that and encouraged to continue doing the best you can personally to meet both of your children's needs and wants while still not driving yourself crazy.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.


How do you know this?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."

And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> How do you know this?


You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine."


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine."


Your little eye-rolly smiley didn't answer the question.

And while we're at it, how do you know that the *4 year old's* desire to go to camp twice a week isn't a legitimate need for him?


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> 20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."
> 
> And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


But those incidents are broken up into 20 minute increments of time in between which someone has the baby in arms and is comforting him. We are not talking about 80 minutes straight of baby crying alone in the carseat without comfort or company. Perhaps we should just throw out the term CIO completely then in this discussion, because that term has a specific meaning that does not apply to the situation being described by the OP.

And I would ask what you define what you consider to be an actual "need" because you clearly are not defining it in the way that others here are defining it. Baby needs to have comfort and contact with a caregiver as much as possible, and the 4 year old needs to have regular social contact with his peers in a fun group setting. Both of them become upset and can not function at their best without these needs being met, so compromises must be struck and the needs must be balanced so that the parents can try to meet both of those competing and at times opposing needs. All the while trying to not have a mental break from all of the pressure to do the right thing for both of their children and not feel like the worst parent in the world when either one or both of the kids is crying and miserable.

So let's give the OP (and other parents similarly situated like her) a break and stop making her feel any worse than she already does by telling her to not meet the needs of her older kid while doing everything heroically possible to prevent her baby from ever crying.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> Your little eye-rolly smiley didn't answer the question.
> 
> And while we're at it, how do you know that the *4 year old's* desire to go to camp twice a week isn't a legitimate need for him?


My eldest son was 9 months old when a bout of mastitis kept us home for a week. He visibly wilted without his 2x week playgroup. It was really odd. But this has continued...he is an extrovert, and he gets energy from being around people, particularly people not his family. He also really needs to get out and play hard. I have a 6 month old, and he's not in camp most of the summer, and it has been really challenging - and my 6 mo old is a good traveller, and not breastfeeding as much - meeting his needs. Certainly it's not every day, but if we went all summer? Not going anywhere? I wouldn't want to see him.

And yes, we have a few transit options but they're worse in terms of upsetting the baby.

While I'm posting again I just want to be clear why I don't think carseat crying - and we had some with my eldest, and occasionally have had some with my youngest when I had to get my son to school, in the snow (just as another example of why this 'no carseat' thing is not always realistic) - is CIO. The whole point of CIO is NOT to reassure. I don't agree with that approach to sleep at all. But there is a vast difference between that and being where you can't at the moment pick up your baby and reassure him or her physically. You can reassure with your voice, with some music, with having your other child close enough in the backseat to be seen.

OP I hope this discussion is not making you frantic. Some other concrete suggestions would be:

- see if you can carpool to cut some of the travel down (although this will mean having a friend in the car for some of the crying), or see if a friend would do it, if you really feel it is necessary

- I read that you are nursing the baby right before trips. With my son that was always a disaster (gas). I tried not to nurse within 15 minutes of a trip, although it wasn't always possible

- if you don't have toys and a mirror, try them out

- for yourself...pick some music you love and sing along; it's good for you and your babe can hear it

This too shall pass, whatever you do. You're a good mom either way.


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## JTA Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> 20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."
> 
> And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


Maybe it's because my first had colic, but the thought of a baby only crying 80 minutes a day, and a broken 80 minutes a day at that is not a big deal. Seriously, my first son screamed the entire time he wasn't eating/sleeping for the first 4 months. Horrible, horrible colic. No damage from that.

And it's not CIO. I am completely anti-CIO. However, that doesn't mean I expect my kids to never cry. To me, in addition to crying, there needs to be a lack of comfort to it to be CIO. Mom singing to the baby, big brother nearby, are comforting. Not as good as getting out of the car, but the baby isn't alone and abandoned-feeling. For all we know, her baby has the same issue my older son has of car sickness. Even now, at 4, he still has moments when he 'freaks out' in the car because he feels like he's going to puke. He *hates* puking. The only difference from when he was an infant is that now he can verbalize that his tummy is hurting and I can help him do things that reduce motion sickness (deep breathing, holding a bucket just in case, distractions like picking out car colors, etc).

I don't like it when either of my kids cry. That does NOT mean there's something wrong with the situation. Like I stated above, moms generally tend to be on the conservative side in terms of reacting to their children. Most moms get distressed/anxious over things that turn out to be minor. Like I stated in my previous post, I got really anxious when my sons have the stomach flu and are puking every time they try to drink something. However, it's usually a bug that passes in 12-24 hrs and I watch them like a hawk. Hearing my older son crying and begging for food when he's still puking every 20 min is heartbreaking to me. But situationally, meeting that need of his is detrimental at the moment. So my feelings of distress=/=something must be done, kwim?

Ami


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> OP I hope this discussion is not making you frantic.
> 
> This too shall pass, whatever you do. You're a good mom either way.


----------



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tmama*
> 
> I think I did have baby blues but I honestly don't think it's PPD...but its more that I just feel so shaken when I hear him cry for a long period of time. I know how damaging it can be to a baby's brain crying that long and thats the part I think about. The (possible) damage caused by crying so hard. His hands are shaking by the time I get him out, his eyes are welled up and his face is beat red. How can I not let that affect me?


Yes it's hard to hear your baby cry, but it's not inherently damaging for a baby to cry for a long period of time. It's damaging for a baby to be abandoned or neglected over a period of time. That's entirely different. Otherwise all those intense or otherwise very difficult babies who scream endlessly no matter what would be scarred for life. They're not. They turn into normal (though possibly very intense) children. I know, my 2nd screamed and screamed and screamed no matter what I did. When we went somewhere in teh car he generally screamed the entire time (or for at least an hour on road trips). I finally just learned to mostly tune him out in the car. He was going to scream no matter what I did (and he'd very likely have been screaming at home too!). DS2 also screamed in the car for the first few months, but by that time it didn't bother me so much. Some babies hat the car or their carseat, they're going to scream, they eventually get over it and life goes on. It sucks, but you are not damaging him, and he will be fine.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


Well I think there's a reason that the majority of 4-year-olds are in preschool. It IS a legitimate need for many kids to have social outlets at least a couple of times a week. Years ago, people lived in communities and neighborhoods where the kids could all run outside & play together all day long. That doesn't happen anymore in most areas, but that doesn't mean that the need for that socialization & companionship has changed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine."


No, the infant may be terrified, but the mom is in the same room (car) and soothing as much as possible, just isn't able to pick her child up. By following your logic, any parent who had surgery & couldn't lift their child is doing CIO if their baby ever cries. And any parent who has a child who cries non-stop, hours & hours a day (like mine did for most of his first 14mos & still does frequently) who aren't able to soothe their babies because NOTHING WORKS are doing CIO too. No one is talking about leaving a baby *unattended* in a car. OP has mentioned she does everything realistically possible to calm him, and YES, baby _does_ know the difference between that & being just left alone to cry indefinitely.


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> How do you know this?


Common Sense. Babies don't know your INTENTION. If your nail accidentally scratches a baby, does it hurt less than if you purposefully scratched them? Of course not.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Common Sense. Babies don't know your INTENTION. If your nail accidentally scratches a baby, does it hurt less than if you purposefully scratched them? Of course not.


But studies have shown that babies respond to their mother's (and soon, other caregivers') voices, that they respond to facial expression, light, sound, motion - all those things. Also, I kind of do believe that a baby reads a parent's body language during a CIO session as they walk away, and as they gear up to leave the baby. That's not true in the car. In the car a parent is very present - similar to the same room.

Just one sample: http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/word+Montreal+team+finds+newborns+respond+uniquely+mother+voice/3989817/story.html

It is just plain not the same.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

what i am getting from changingseasons isn't that it IS CIO, but to a baby there isn't a difference. if they are miserable in a car ride i don't think it matters that you are there talking to them, you are not giving them what they need. and you know, that sometimes happens. (someone else mentioned that too). BUT IF the OP feels that the crying is worse then not going to camp then maybe she should hold off on camp this summer, BUT if the older child really benefits from camp then, the little one just needs to cry.

i do not think that all 4 year olds NEED camp. personally i see a need as something that keeps you alive, like food, water, shelter, comfort. BUT that doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate want. some people are very very social, so that want is very important and that is a choice needs to be made. maybe the choice for camp is also good for mom, so that is something to think about also.

OP is there anyway you don't need to go home each camp day? is there something close that you can do while your 4 year old is at camp? that way you only have to do one round trip? since it is only twice a week?

h


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There's no way we can know for sure what a baby is thinking, but it seems unlikely they're thinking and feeling the same things when locked alone in a room until they stop crying with no human contact of any kind, and when they're in a car with other people talking, singing, and trying to comfort them as best they can until they get to a place where they can be taken out and physically comforted.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> ...


Good grief, can everyone please stop with the inflammatory, oh no, you're scarring the baby for life and are dooming him forevermore tone in some of these responses?

Seriously, one of my twins had reflux and cried incessantly for at least 12 to 16 hours a day when he was a newborn. I did everything I could think of to try and soothe his crying, from walking with him and singing to him and rocking him and cuddling him and so on (oh, and nursed him on demand of course even though he would regularly projectile vomit all over both of us and then scream some more, and yes, I eliminated everything under the sun from my diet as well, it didn't help.) He still cried and cried and cried because he was miserable. I can't imagine how much worse it would have made me feel to come here and be told how I was traumatizing my baby for life if I didn't keep killing myself all day long trying to soothe his crying (while leaving his poor twin alone much of this time because he didn't cry all day long.) I honestly don't see how that wouldn't have pushed me into serious PPD to hear such criticism. Please, stop and think about how the impact of what you are posting here may potentially push the OP to such an extreme as well.

I hate to say it, but this is how MDC sometimes gets a bad rap for pushing parents to such extremes for not being AP "enough." Clearly, the OP is struggling and trying so very hard as it is already, why is so hard to acknowledge that and not pile on her about how the baby doesn't understand that she doesn't intend to neglect him and damage him and leave him alone all scared and "restrained" (right, like Mom tied him up for kicks instead of the real reason, to prevent his becoming a human projectile during an auto collision.)

There is absolutely no reason to shut off one's compassion for the OP here, she hasn't done anything at all extreme or dangerous for her baby or his well-being. I truly think some perspective is in order in this discussion, and for some it appears to be sorely lacking.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I also had a colicky baby who cried more often than not the first few months of life, no matter what. I held her, rocked her, nursed her, soothed her, etc., but she still cried, pretty much constantly. The only thing that made me sane was changing my viewpoint from "I must stop my baby from crying" to "I must comfort my baby as best I can while she cries and not feel bad about things that are outside of my control." She is healthy and thriving now at 9, and is still intense and moody but is also happy and joyful. She's fine, and the OP's baby will be fine.


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Ya know, I DO understand that sometimes it can not be helped. But that doesn't mean that it needs to be sugar coated.

If I really want an orange and all I can get is an apple, I can accept that there is nothing I can do about it right now and eat the apple. Trying to convince myself that the apple is an orange is not helpful. In the same way, I can't convince myself or anyone else that allowing a newborn to cry without comfort is ok. It's not, the infant does NOT know the difference and I see no reason why I have to convince anyone that the INFANT can't understand that, it's the law, it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean that it is not potentially damaging. And therefore should be done as little as possible to minimize any damaging side effects. (imo of course)


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Ya know, I DO understand that sometimes it can not be helped. But that doesn't mean that it needs to be sugar coated.
> 
> If I really want an orange and all I can get is an apple, I can accept that there is nothing I can do about it right now and eat the apple. Trying to convince myself that the apple is an orange is not helpful. In the same way, I can't convince myself or anyone else that allowing a newborn to cry without comfort is ok. It's not, the infant does NOT know the difference and I see no reason why I have to convince anyone that the INFANT can't understand that, it's the law, it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean that it is not potentially damaging. And therefore should be done as little as possible to minimize any damaging side effects. (imo of course)


But it's your unsubstantiated opinion. My earlier link was about babies. We know in older kids that mum's voice produces oxytocin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8675966.stm

So - all I'm saying is there is evidence mounting that even quite young babies will know that their mother is near by hearing her voice, and for me personally my opinion is that this is soothing and is not the same as CIO.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It seems obvious that it isn't ideal, and it also seems obvious that she should try to minimize it as much as is practical and reasonable, but it also seems obvious that it isn't CIO and isn't going to damage her baby.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Ya know, I DO understand that sometimes it can not be helped. But that doesn't mean that it needs to be sugar coated.
> 
> If I really want an orange and all I can get is an apple, I can accept that there is nothing I can do about it right now and eat the apple. *Trying to convince myself that the apple is an orange is not helpful. In the same way, I can't convince myself or anyone else that allowing a newborn to cry without comfort is ok.* It's not, the infant does NOT know the difference and I see no reason why I have to convince anyone that the INFANT can't understand that, it's the law, it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean that it is not potentially damaging. And therefore should be done as little as possible to minimize any damaging side effects. (imo of course)


The part I'm having an issue with is your (and several others') very narrow definition of 'comfort'... Comfort is not just holding a child in arms, although for many babies that is one of the most effective forms of comfort. There are many ways to comfort a baby though!! And sometimes the easiest or most effective way just isn't possible so we have to do our best with the other options available. I don't understand how you can say the infant doesn't know the difference. If you were upset, would you rather cry alone in your room or would you prefer to have a loving partner or friend nearby to listen and soothe, even if that person couldn't touch you???


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Ya know, I DO understand that sometimes it can not be helped. But that doesn't mean that it needs to be sugar coated.


This.

I do think the fact that people are in the car may be beneficial to the infant (they can hear voices, see the sibling, etc) but it does not negate the fact that it is still a screaming infant who is having his need to be comforted unmet (as is evidence from the continued screaming) The fact that it is a car ride that might need to happen cannot be relevant to the newborn.

I am not sure if this is developmentally relevant for a 3 month old but my kids were often angrier when they knew I was around and could not meet their needs than if I was not around. Once upon a time in the throes of sleep deprivation I tried a modified CIO with my son. Honestly, he screamed louder when I was in the room than out. He was older an older baby though.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

This is possibly the most depressing & guilt-inducing threads I have ever seen.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> This is possibly the most depressing & guilt-inducing threads I have ever seen.


Really?

Posting that CIO and screaming in the car share some similarities is guilt inducing? Suggesting, in addition to many of the great suggestion in the early part of this thread, that she might want to consider minimisizing driving when possible (possible as defined by her) is guilt inducing?









I actually think it is totally fine if the Op decides to minimise driving as possible or to continue driving and use the suggestions as she sees fit to get through this period. In both cases the baby and 4 year old will be fine. Her call - and sharing thoughts around either idea is not guilt inducing.

TBH what she wrote at the beginning makes her sound like a wonderful mother.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> This.
> 
> ...


What about those of us who had colicky infants who screamed for hours on end for months? Were they not being comforted, even when being rocked, nursed as often as they wanted, held in slings, and stroked and loved? If they keep screaming, what we did wasn't beneficial, because they were still screaming?


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


Well it's more the idea that if you can't hold your baby (for whatever reason -- car ride, another child to tend to, bathroom break, broken arm, NICU etc...) that you are not meeting your child's needs... that physically holding the child is the only way to provide comfort... that if your child cries and you aren't able to console them, you are basically CIO (with all the negative effects)... that a child can't tell the difference between loving but non-physical comfort, and NO comfort.... that baby's needs ALWAYS trump the needs of other family members, particularly siblings... that people who live in non-walkable (and/or bus-free) communities should just stay home indefinitely if their child hates the car... I readily admit, though, that I am taking this very personally because of how my experience with DS has been...


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


But that isn't what many are saying in this discussion. There are plenty of other posters here who have refused to acknowledge any distinction whatsoever between CIO and the OP's situation, and insisted that a baby crying in their carseat for 20 minutes is equally as damaging as being left indefinitely in his crib to cry without any comforting or soothing from a parent/caregiver at all. That is what I and some others here are objecting to and that is what we have called out as being an unfair laying on of guilt. To then insist that one doesn't need to sugar coat the supposed truthiness of one's unsupported supposition that a parent is inflicting permanent psychological and neurological harm to their baby by allowing for any incidence of sustained crying is really rather appalling.


----------



## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> Ya know, I DO understand that sometimes it can not be helped. But that doesn't mean that it needs to be sugar coated.
> 
> If I really want an orange and all I can get is an apple, I can accept that there is nothing I can do about it right now and eat the apple. Trying to convince myself that the apple is an orange is not helpful. In the same way, I can't convince myself or anyone else that allowing a newborn to cry without comfort is ok. It's not, the infant does NOT know the difference and I see no reason why I have to convince anyone that the INFANT can't understand that, it's the law, it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean that it is not *potentially damaging*. And therefore should be done as little as possible to *minimize any damaging side effects*. (imo of course)


To be clear in what I'm asking - specifically, what damage ensues from a child crying because they're unhappy/uncomfortable in a car seat for relatively brief but regular periods of time? And where is the threshold for when it goes from unfortunate to damaging?

I'm NOT advocating CIO, btw.


----------



## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> This is possibly the most depressing & guilt-inducing threads I have ever seen.


I think that if you've attempted and been mostly successful at applying GD and AP principles to your parenting that you've done very well by your children.









If you have a child who is particularly intense, needy or has any special needs, it's harder to read threads like this, because things don't tend to go as smoothly with complicated, intense kids.


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## bella99 (Sep 25, 2008)

Just following up on what I wrote a couple of days ago.

Kathymuggle, interesting what you wrote about your baby doing worse with you in the room. The screaming fits that my almost 6 month old does in the car? Only ever when I am in the car, and usually doesn't matter if I am the driver or somewhere else in the car. When her father drives her around or her grandparents? Not.One.Problem.

And we found a solution, at least it worked a couple of times! All of us talking or singing to her didn't help. But if *I* sing to her only, and I sing specific songs, well then, that she drifts off to sleep to that. Awesome! See folks? An infant *can* be comforted and calmed without being held!

I too live in an area where there is little to no public transportation. It's wouldn't have been realistic for me to not drive. And I live ten minutes from the nearest place to do any grocery shopping and walking there would have been dangerous. You do what you have to.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> What about those of us who had colicky infants who screamed for hours on end for months? Were they not being comforted, even when being rocked, nursed as often as they wanted, held in slings, and stroked and loved? If they keep screaming, what we did wasn't beneficial, because they were still screaming?


I think you do all you can (within the limits of your own sanity). If you hold them, nurse them, etc and they still cry...well, they still cry. You really are doing all you can do.

If you are driving you cannot "do all you can do" (sound like the army, lol) because you are driving. You cannot nurse, hold, make eye contact with, etc. Sometimes you have to drive - I get that. Sometimes you choose to and that is fine too. I do not think any long term damage will be done by screaming in the car - but that hardly makes it pleasant. If I had my life to live over again I would have driven a little less while my kids were in the screaming stage.

I do not think my ability to offer comfort (even if they do not respond to it) is as high when driving as it is while not driving. This is not meant to shame at all - it is simply a statement of fact. My ability to offer comfort or a range of comfort is less while driving.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lolagirl*
> 
> To then insist that one doesn't need to sugar coat the supposed truthiness of one's u*nsupported supposition that a parent is inflicting permanent psychological and neurological harm to their baby by allowing for any incidence of sustained crying is really rather appalling.*


I reread this thread (somewhat quickly). I did not see anyone say anything like this. Do you have a quote?


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I reread this thread (somewhat quickly). I did not see anyone say anything like this. Do you have a quote?


she is misquoting me. I'm the one that used the term sugar coating. I was stating that while allowing a baby to cry in the car is not CIO, it can potentially have the same damaging effects because an infant doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that your intentions are not CIO. And that I'm not going to sit here and say oh don't worry sweetie, just toughen up, the baby will be fine. No, I don't know the child will be damaged in any way, but I also can not assure her the baby will "be just fine" I'm not going to lie to her. THAT was my point. I am not going to LIE to make someone else feel better - EVER.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> because an infant doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that your intentions are not CIO.


you sure about that?


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

Here's my experience. My youngest screamed bloody-murder in the car til she was around 1, I don't know if she outgrew it or really loved the "new" minivan we'd just bought. It was amazing though to not hear screaming when we went somewhere!

We had to: sing "the ants go marching", sing "hush" by Afroman(you know how babies can become attached to some weird things!), or I'd have to sit next to her and nurse her if dh was driving(and he usually was, as we only had the one vehicle til I got the minivan).

Her screaming got so bad we'd have to pull over and get her out so she'd calm down and breath. Her screaming was so bad she'd choke. As long as I was next to her with my boob in her mouth, she was ok(and I could just learn forward and nurse with no problem). It wasn't the safest way for me to be but it beat the nerve-wrecking screaming.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

nm

Op - hope you are doing OK.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Czarena*
> 
> she is misquoting me. I'm the one that used the term sugar coating. I was stating that while allowing a baby to cry in the car is not CIO, it can potentially have the same damaging effects because an infant doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that your intentions are not CIO. And that I'm not going to sit here and say oh don't worry sweetie, just toughen up, the baby will be fine. No, I don't know the child will be damaged in any way, but I also can not assure her the baby will "be just fine" I'm not going to lie to her. THAT was my point. I am not going to LIE to make someone else feel better - EVER.


You are repeatedly asserting that a baby is damaged by brief periods of crying without providing any evidence.

I think there's a distance between saying crying is not optimal and saying that it's damaging.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i think that people are forgetting that deciding when & whether or not to drive somewhere isn't a luxury everyone has.

i personally think that if a child can hear your voice then you are attempting to soothe and it isn't cio.


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *joensally*
> 
> You are repeatedly asserting that a baby is damaged by brief periods of crying without providing any evidence.
> 
> I think there's a distance between saying crying is not optimal and saying that it's damaging.


please re-read the very post you quoted. I am not saying that the child WILL be damaged, I'm saying that there is still potential.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> you sure about that?


You know what, you are right. I DON"T know that for a certainty. However, I am not going to expect a newborn to understand. I assume if that newborn DOES understand, they would react to that knowledge and be calmer. ie those that DO calm down when they hear their mother explaining it. I assume if the mom is talking and explaining and singing, etc and the baby is still screaming that they do not comprehend the difference.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

OK wait a min! Hold the phone! Some of you are saying a baby will suffer damage by crying? So what about *my* baby?

My DD was NEVER left to CIO but had wicked bad colic and intestinal issues and cried *3-9 HOURS A DAY* until she was *9 months* old!

I did everything I could! I wore her almost exclusively all-day-long, she nursed every 45mins around the clock, I always sang to her, let her sleep on top of me, you name it I did it! She still cried and cried and cried no matter what I did ever! I never even left her to keep my own sanity! Not once!

So she is brain damaged then? I just don't get it....if she were left completely alone in a room by herself screaming for hours on end, yeah I could see it, but I was ALWAYS right there with her no matter what but she still cried regardless. Not a calm cry either a screaming at the top of her lungs, ear piercing, no one wants to even come over to visit it's so bad cry! She cried every single car ride too and I did minimize them greatly but she still cried just as much. I always snag to her in the car and she knew I was there by my voice and my smell and I really don't think that was so horrid for her.

So all the hell I went through to not let DD CIO was in vain? B/C CIO would have been a hell of a lot easier than what I went through.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> OK wait a min! Hold the phone! Some of you are saying a baby will suffer damage by crying? So what about *my* baby?
> 
> ...


I think this thread is triggering for a lot of people.

If you go through this thread carefully, I think you will find very few posters are saying crying in the car will equal damage, and no one has said crying in arms equals damage.

If I am wrong and numerous posters have said such things, please point them out to me.

If I am wrong, I think it would be great if those who said "damage" would come on so we could discuss it. What kind of damage? What are the parameters? Is there solid evidence one way or another?

In your case it might have been difficult to assess whether she was crying in the car - or just crying. In mine it was fairly easy - my non-crying prone babies screamed in the car and my voice, etc did little to soothe them. Sometimes I had to drive and that was just that, but sometimes I think life would have been easier if I didn't choose to go to some places.

The whole damage thing is making my head spin - simply because your child will not (in all probability) be damaged through crying in the car does not mean it is OK. There are degrees in between damage and " it is fine if the baby cries in the car". Crying in the car is unpleasant for everyone, and perhaps even unsafe for the driver if they find it too distracting.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Ok, prefacing by again clarifying that I'm not advocating CIO. When our kids were little we avoided crying. We subscribe to AP and GD principles, and of course it's not optimal for babies to cry.

There is no measure to ascertain damage at the level of kids who intermittently cry while being offered comfort. There is a measure of trauma and failure to develop where kids have experienced trauma (abuse, severe neglect etc). But it's based on current functioning and history. They can measure hormone shifts in response to stress, and certainly ongoing stress hormone responses have the potential to change a child.

Humans, including infants, live within a system. Others in that system also have needs and the adults need to ascertain how best to balance everyone's needs. And when infants live within that system, they are not ONLY getting messages and encoding based on crying periodically - they're getting lots of other messages about having their needs met which I think far overwhelm intermittent crying.

As for the preschooler gettting to preschool - if the child has adjustment issues, social skills challenges or a host of other issues, I think preschool may very well constitute a need, and I think there are way more measures of "harm" for preschool-aged kids who don't get early supports to develop appropriately than there is evidence that a 20 minute car ride a couple times a week is going to harm an infant.

And for the posters with colicky or otherwise intense/high needs babies - I think this is apples and oranges. The crying was some physiological response which was unavoidable. If you were doing your best to offer comfort and connection, there's nothing to feel badly about.

I think this whole thing is overblown. Crying within the context of loving, attached, connected parenting is very different from unattached parenting practices.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

A lot of people are saying that the baby crying in the car is damaging for the baby b/c he is not being consoled, which is my point my baby couldn't be consoled (in a car or a wrap, with a breast, nothing) so wouldn't that mean my baby would be damaged from all that crying?

I mean yes, I was actively trying to console her but it just wasn't happening, and she was crying a heck of a lot more than a 20min ride 2 days a week. KWIM?

I originally said in my first post that I always struggled with the car too as in if it would be considered CIO or not BUT at least you are right there and the baby can hear and smell you which has to count for *something*, no?


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

nm (this thread is moving fast - I post and someone has addressed something, lol)


----------



## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I think this thread is triggering for a lot of people.
> 
> If you go through this thread carefully, I think you will find very few posters are saying crying in the car will equal damage, and no one has said crying in arms equals damage.










Settle down, people. I also had a baby with "colic" (which we actually figured out to be food allergies, and later an immune disease) who cried a LOT her first year. I never once said or implied that a crying baby in arms was the same as a crying baby in a carseat. But even so, YES- it can be damaging, regardless of your intention. I'm not saying you can always necessarily do anything about it... if a kid is sick and in pain, they are going to be sick and in pain whether you are holding them or not. I'm saying that when there IS something you can do about it (like dress less often IF POSSIBLE), then you might want to think about it.
Quote:


> Research has shown that infants who are routinely separated from parents in a stressful way have abnormally high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, as well as lower growth hormone levels. These imbalances inhibit the development of nerve tissue in the brain, suppress growth, and depress the immune system.


Quote:


> Researchers at Yale University and Harvard Medical School found that intense stress early in life can alter the brain's neurotransmitter systems and cause structural and functional changes in regions of the brain similar to those seen in adults with depression.


Quote:


> One study showed infants who experienced persistent crying episodes were 10 times more likely to have ADHD as a child, along with poor school performance and antisocial behavior. The researchers concluded these findings may be due to the lack of responsive attitude of the parents toward their babies.


http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Joensally - I agree with much of your post.

I think camp for some families is a need or extremely beneficial, and that will outweigh an infant screaming. I think camp for most families, though, is a want. It still might outweigh screaming in the car, but it might not, and I really think that is something the Op needs to figure out for herself - it cannot be weighed here given the little info we have.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Research has shown that infants who are routinely separated from parents in a stressful way have abnormally high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, as well as lower growth hormone levels. These imbalances inhibit the development of nerve tissue in the brain, suppress growth, and depress the immune system.


What is their definition of separated? Because I can't imagine many research studies which would include being in the same room & talking to the child as being "separated"...
Quote:


> One study showed infants who experienced persistent crying episodes were 10 times more likely to have ADHD as a child, along with poor school performance and antisocial behavior. The researchers concluded these findings may be due to the lack of responsive attitude of the parents toward their babies.


Cause or effect? How many of those children were dealing with things like sensory issues, emotional issues, etc. which caused the prolonged crying in the first place? How do you know the crying itself is what caused the ADHD/antisocial behavior etc., rather than the other issues evident since birth were causing it or early symptoms of it? It simply said the researchers concluded it MAY be due to lack of responsiveness, which is just conjecture... and there is no one saying to not respond to the baby anyway...

I do not advocate or agree with CIO. But I do not agree that crying in the car (with comfort offered, talking/sight/singing) may damage the baby. I don't agree with guilting a mama who is struggling and doing everything in her power to keep her baby happy. I'm quite sure she's already thought of whether or not the older child really needs to go to camp...


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

I also think this issue is being blown out of proportion. This is not CIO, never will be unless mama's intention is to 'teach' baby how to act in a car by purposefully withholding all measures of comfort.

Driving in a car while singing/talking to/etc to a distressed infant is nothing like it, in intention or practice----- nor is gently dealing with colic or chronic crying ] (which I feel is a completely different issue and can't be compared to this situation, as nothing in our control can soothe these special babies. Quite different.) Can we just leave CIO out of this discussion? I believe it is only causing confusion and unnecessary defensiveness. Nobody here is served well to be told that what they are doing is akin to CIO. It's just not true. All of us aim to be as present, empathetic, and comforting as our personal situations allow.

This whole idea of doesn't me singing/talking/etc to my crying infant while driving count for something?---- Sure it does, it is better than totally leaving them to cry alone with no one attempting to soothe them. I know when I HAVE to drive and my DD is in frantic distress, sobbing trying to catch her breath, all I CAN do is tell her "almost there, just x minutes, I know baby, mama wishes she could hold you but I can't. It is for your safety" and reach back and stroke her face. Sometimes she eventually accepts this form of comfort and calms down, but many times she doesn't. In those cases, talking and stroking isn't what she needs, and is in fact seems to feel like mocking her attempts to communicate as she proceeds to scream LOUDER. What she NEEDS is for me to stop the car and get her out. She is clearly communicating that.

But the unfortunate fact of life as parents is that we can't meet every single need 100% of the time, as much as our heart pleads for us to. We are not perfect. It is often not safe to stop the car when we need to. We have external pressures influencing our choices; such as time constraints, commitments to other people, weather, traffic, a big payoff once we reach our destination, etc. So we have to measure if this temporary distress is worth it. Yes, I do believe that 'damage' (as in, a negative consequence due to crying) is possible, depending on the child and circumstance. Some babies cry and cry and doesn't hurt them in the least, while some do suffer mental and psychological anguish, as well as physiological effects. Damage such as temporarily severed trust, raised cortisol levels, anxiety, withdrawal, and feelings of abandonment and helplessness. The parent is the only one who can ascertain that 'damage' has taken place from the crying by observing their LO. If it has, then amendments to the parents' approach seems in order, if possible. There is no need to let word 'damage' scare us. My goodness, our children will be damaged in all sort of ways during their young childhood. We are there to pick them up, dust them off, and dish out the love to help heal their wounds.

In the case of the OP and her infant--- only she can decide what to do, whether to stay home to avoid her infant's distress, or push through it somehow for her older child. She will have to weigh the pros and cons and choose the best route for her family. Whatever she does, whether it is x, or y, or not z.... she is not a 'bad' mama. (and why why why does this good parent v. bad parent rhetoric enter our discussions on here? We all care for our children and are doing our best, whether AP or not. That is enough!)


----------



## HeckedyPeg (May 15, 2010)

I had a car crying baby, it was AWFUL! .... but it was also temporary. He grew out of it around 5months. DH and I would take turns riding in the backseat, or if I could I would stop the car and nurse and soothe him for a while (if it's possible that is, may not be easy with older kids). At night I used a glow worm and just kept pressing the damn button and it kept him pretty happy. Be gentle with yourself! I hope you can get through this without feeling guilty (easier said than done, I felt so bad every time I drove) ... but it will get better!

PS: I don't really think this is like CIO at all, because you're there, baby can hear your voice, you can stop and calm them, and you're not letting baby CIO at any other time!


----------



## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnaBees Mama*
> 
> I also think this issue is being blown out of proportion. This is not CIO, never will be unless mama's intention is to 'teach' baby how to act in a car by purposefully withholding all measures of comfort.
> 
> Driving in a car while singing/talking to/etc to a distressed infant is nothing like it, in intention or practice----- nor is gently dealing with colic or chronic crying ] (which I feel is a completely different issue and can't be compared to this situation, as nothing in our control can soothe these special babies. Quite different.) Can we just leave CIO out of this discussion? I believe it is only causing confusion and unnecessary defensiveness. Nobody here is served well to be told that what they are doing is akin to CIO. It's just not true. All of us aim to be as present, empathetic, and comforting as our personal situations allow.


Just coming back to this discussion, and ITA with the above.

It's true that a big part of the anti-CIO rhetoric is wrapped up in (albeit limited) studies indicating that babies can sustain some neurological harm as well as potential harm to the parent-child bond from extended crying. But, from what I understand of those studies they are in the context of actual textbook extinction method CIO where a baby is left alone in a crib to cry alone without any comfort from parents or caregivers until such time as the baby stops crying and goes to sleep. Of course that can equal extremely protracted bouts of crying, possibly for several hours at a time and over several days in duration. But, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this discussion, that sort of scenario is completely different from a baby crying for 20 minutes or so in a carseat a few feet away from the caregiver but still within earshot of the caregiver's (and potentially other family member's) verbal attempts to soothe the baby. Once the car ride is over, the OP and others here have pointed out that the baby is immediately removed from the carseat and soothed in arms in order to get him to stop crying. Again, this is completely different from CIO, where the caregiver is at no time supposed to step in and attempt to soothe the baby's crying in any way.

I can't see how throwing around the term damaging in reference to a baby crying would not rile up parents here who had babies that cried beyond what is generally considered the norm, whether that be from reflux, colic, NICU stay, carseat hate, the competing needs of other siblings, etc. Not every parent has a smooth go of things with their newborn and get curve balls thrown at them that make it next to impossible for them to avoid their baby's crying for sustained periods of time. I just can't see why it's so hard for some posters here to take a step back, thank their lucky stars that they were not met with such challenging circumstances (because make no mistake, it is pure and simple luck when one has a relatively easy to soothe baby) and offer some sympathy and constructive advice to parents like the OP. I hope she hasn't been scared off from this discussion as a result of how it has played out, because there are a lot of good resources here at MDC and (usually) supportive voices to help a parent through particularly rough times.


----------



## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I think this is a big part of the picture. Parents of all parenting styles report excessive crying more frequently in children who later develop ADHD, and kids on the spectrum or with sensory issues are usually described in extremes of infant behavior by parents ("golden babies" or very high needs babies). My own children were all attachment parented. The oldest child screamed if we opened a pop can, screamed if he was in a car, couldn't self soothe unless walked outdoors or jiggled indoors in a specific way. We swaddled, we carried, nursed, sang, listened to hours of classical music, jiggled, bounced, and on and on. The saving grace was that he was my first so I didn't know it was unusual and kind of took it in stride (but lost a lot of weight constantly walking with him as it was the only thing that worked). The other two babies didn't have these issues at all. After years of suppositions as to what we should have done differently, where we went wrong, DS1 is in the process of confirming an autism spectrum disorder. At 11 years old, he is still an intense person and he still needs more from us to regulate himself.

Also, as a mother of three children (and I'm sure mothers of greater numbers have experienced this even more so), I see my family as an ecosystem, not a rigid hierarchy. It's true that babies need a lot from us, and that they do not have the cognitive skills to understand why their needs are not met. That being said, if their mothers are under extreme stress, and the siblings are very unhappy from not having their needs met, it will affect the interaction of the family members to the detriment of the baby.

And as to the damage from crying and ability to self soothe: as a former family support worker we used lots of resources from NCAST (just Google, I'm sure you could find it somewhere), which studies systems of soothing, sleep hygiene and infant communication. Actual evidence supports always rocking baby and soothing until asleep until 3 months (and, despite mainstream medicine connections, co-sleeping was actually supported), between 3 to 6 months no CIO but if you do not co-sleep, this is a good time to practice developing a soothing routine for transition times and introducing baby to his/her own fist or a pacifier. As much as I personally was comfortable with AP principles and never used CIO practices myself, there is some evidence that babies can self soothe without harm to their brains if they are over 6 months old and if the parents are available and present and verbally check in on the baby (as in hearing your voice talking in the car). Please don't ask for exact citations, I've been out of the field for 8 years, but I do think with some Googleling you can find this. I will post a link later tonight if I get a chance.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Czarena* 


> ...I can't convince myself or anyone else that allowing a newborn to cry without comfort is ok. It's not, the infant does NOT know the difference and I see no reason why I have to convince anyone that the INFANT can't understand that, it's the law, it's a safety issue, but that doesn't mean that it is not potentially damaging. And therefore should be done as little as possible to minimize any damaging side effects. (imo of course)


How do you know what an infant knows? How do you know that babies don't take their mother's or caregiver's voice and scent (as well as touch) as a source of comfort? And if you say "common sense" again, you might as well be saying "my own unsubstantiated opinion". Obviously it's not so "common" if so many people just in this thread alone don't agree on it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You didn't? I think an argument can be made that, at the very least, the implication was there in these comments that you've made:

Quote:


> I completely agree. CIO in a room by themselves, or CIO in a seat by themselves (while hearing a voice) is really no different, regardless of your intention.


Quote:



> The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.


Quote:


> You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine."


....and this link:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful


Going by what you've said you believe about this topic....If a baby crying uncontrollably = a baby that is possibly terrified or traumatized (your words, again), then how would being held in his mother's arms while he's crying/screaming/terrified make any difference to the baby? If the baby can't understand the mother's intention and can't be soothed by her presence, scent or voice, then what is so different about being in her arms? This implications in that line of reasoning are what have offended and confounded some people in this thread.

ETA: Regarding the Dr. Sear's link, here's another take on that: http://mainstreamparenting.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/of-sources-and-straw-houses-the-annotated-dr-sears-handout-on-cio/

For the record, I don't know which POV is right or wrong or if the truth is somewhere in-between. But it's interesting and something to consider, especially for those who have been upset by this thread.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

nm - again. Sorry.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> You didn't? I think an argument can be made that, at the very least, the implication was there in these comments that you've made:


No, I didn't. You even quoted what I said, but I'll quote it again, bolding the important parts that you missed: "CIO in a room *by themselves*, or CIO in a seat *by themselves* (while hearing a voice) is really no different, regardless of your intention." Where in that sentence did I say anything about "a crying baby in arms"?

The difference is *TOUCH*. If I'm really upset or scared, talking to my partner on the phone might help a little. But having him here right next to me, holding me or touching me, and not even saying a word? MAJOR DIFFERENCE.

I don't know why what I said is so offensive. I'm not telling anyone they are a bad parent because their baby cries. My babies cry. I try and make them feel better as much as humanly possible. If you can't make them feel better, then you can't. But for me personally? Letting an infant scream when there is something I can do about it is not ok. For me personally, my almost-4yo has the mental capacity to understand that she might have to miss a class if baby is too upset to be in the car. My infant, on the other hand, does NOT have the cognition to understand that I can't touch her for 20 minutes while she screams because we "have" to be in the car for my (almost)4yo. If we're 2 miles from home and baby starts crying, I will continue driving. But if baby is screaming when we get into the car to leave, I wait until she's ok to drive. Sometimes that takes a while, and it sure is a pita, but that's what *I* feel is important.


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## jabs (Mar 11, 2010)

This is not going to be much help but..my now 8 month old did exactly the same thing. He would cry and scream and work himself up into such a state that he would gag and choke, even when I was in the back trying to soothe and hubby was driving. I know the look you're talking about and it's a heartbreaker for a parent who never lets their kid CIO. I could never take him out alone in the car, we always had to be 2 because there was always a meltdown. We never figured out what the problem was and we tried all sorts of stuff: music, toys, singing songs,removing clothing, bundling him up, stopping the car to take him out and cuddle or nurse, etc. I couldn't visit friends or do anything with the car. Noone understood and thought we were exagerating or just didn't want to take him in the car, but seriously, it was frightening and stressful for me to listen to him scream like that so I just stopped doing it, even with someone else driving with me in the back to soothe. I switched to public transport with my son in an Ergobaby. Finally, around 5 months I was able to take him in the car but only in the mornings just at his nap time, he would fall asleep in the car. At 7 months he was no longer screaming and now at 8 months I swear he actually enjoys going in the car. I just give him a toy, he plays with it or daydreams looking out the window or dozes off. It's heaven!! Like I said, we never identified the cause and we kept using the same techniques as before. I told you this wasn't going to help but at least you know that it won't last forever. Can you find someone to take your child to camp for you?


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## effulgent7 (Mar 2, 2011)

I know I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to reply to the OP and say I have a car hater too. I wish I had known that she wasn't the only one back when it was at it's worst and I was at my wit's end!

She is 14 months now and the car is still hit or miss. Most of the time either DH or I have to sit next to her while in the car. Her crying peaked from about 2 months until 8 months when she started to occasionally be able to sleep in the car. I also experienced a lot of mommy guilt as she screamed her way through most car trips.

I've tried everything mentioned here. DVD's worked a little, so did the mirror but a policeman gave me some guilt about that and I took it down. Now I keep a ton of books and toys in the front seat and pass them back as she gets bored and tosses them away. Not a perfect solution, but short of never leaving the house...it works.

It helps me just to know that I'm not alone with this issue.


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## ThePrincessMommy (Apr 11, 2008)

Just wanted to add that I felt precicely the same way when my dd was tiny. She screamed in her carseat any time we'd go anywhere, and we lived 45 minutes from town!  I still remember the first trip, dh and I in TEARS when we finally made it home. I took her out of her carseat and ran into my bedroom and just cuddled with her and nursed her for HOURS trying to "make it up to her". No, I don't believe I had any sort of depression. Yes, I believe we are mothers who are very sensitive to our babies' feelings. And we know they are REAL feelings, even if illogical since they are so young and can't be logical about what's best for them yet. I didn't cry every time we went out, but I never got used to her car crying. I'd try not to go out very often - and found many other mothers who took the same course of action. I tried a pacifier even though I wasn't originally going to, but she wouldn't take it anyway. I just had to wait it out. She's almost 3 now and she's always been happy and loved. So it'll all work out. Hugs to you.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> I don't know why what I said is so offensive. I'm not telling anyone they are a bad parent because their baby cries. My babies cry. I try and make them feel better as much as humanly possible. If you can't make them feel better, then you can't. But for me personally? Letting an infant scream when there is something I can do about it is not ok. For me personally, *my almost-4yo has the mental capacity to understand that she might have to miss a class if baby is too upset to be in the car. My infant, on the other hand*, does NOT have the cognition to understand that I can't touch her for 20 minutes while she screams because we "have" to be in the car for my (almost)4yo. If we're 2 miles from home and baby starts crying, I will continue driving. But if baby is screaming when we get into the car to leave, I wait until she's ok to drive. Sometimes that takes a while, and it sure is a pita, but that's what *I* feel is important.


The concern that I and other posters have in this discussion is that after a while, the 4 yo is no longer going to patiently understand that their life has to stop because of the baby's needs trumping their own. The suggestion has been thrown around more than once that the whole family may very well end up being confined to home for as long as it takes for baby to no longer cry in ther carseat (possibly up to 6 months?) The average 4, 5, 6 yo kid may be able to understand occassional disappointment at not getting to go to a much enjoyed event, but if that is going to happen daily for up to 6 months how on earth is it not understandable (and even perfectly justified) that the older child will begin to seriously feel undervalued and resentful of systematically losing out to their new sibling?

My boys were almost 5 when our new baby was born, they understood that some stuff was going to change but it was still really hard for them to get used to the additional loss of our parental attention and time. Suddenly they had to be quiet a lot more so as not to wake the baby up, and remember to be gentle around the baby, and be told a lot to give us a few minutes while we took care of the baby. If we had also told them that we would no longer be going places outside the house because the baby cried too much in the carseat/stroller/carrier (because he cried in all of those) the likelihood of them experiencing significant emotional harm as a result would have been far greater than I would have been comfortable with risking. It doesn't matter how much we tried to reassure them that we still loved them too and that it was necessary to keep the baby happy, at that age kids simply do not have the intellectual capacity to dig that deep and put aside their own feelings in order to brush aside their own needs and wants.

Which is why I have repeatedly pointed out that there has to be a balancing of everyone's needs (and even wants from time to time) in order to try and keep the family healthy and happy as a whole. If that means that sometimes baby cries in the carseat so that the kids can go to school or summer camp or grandma's house or whatever then sometimes it just has to happen. We all do our best to make the situation as comfortable for everyone and to soldier through so that we can get it over with. And I will continue to disagree with the assertion that our attempts to soothe the baby when he cries is the carseat during those trips are either fruitless or similar to (or the same as) CIO.


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## tenzinsmama (Apr 30, 2011)

I'm feeling compelled to put down my own thoughts, after reading so many of the posts here... I have to be honest, I haven't read through them all for lack of time right now, and, not to mention that I am feeling disappointed about how judgemental some of them seem to be and I just found myself getting bothered by it...

I'll start by saying that I absolutely and completely feel empathy for anyone who has to experience a baby crying incessantly while riding in the car. My DS is almost a year old now and for 99% of the time he is great in the car, BUT, it wasn't always like this. From about 4 weeks until 7 months old, he hated the car. It was so difficult to go anywhere with him, so I basically only went when I felt like I could handle it. It made it hard to get out to do appointments, errands, etc. Plus, my parents live 1 hour away from me, but they were rarely able to come visit me in the early months (my mom doesn't drive in the city, and my dad was recovering from cancer treatments), so that meant we had to go to them if we wanted to see each other. While my DH could do the errands when he came home from work, it was the visits with my family that I most needed...

Most of the time, I couldn't drive more than a few minutes before the crying started. As a new parent, I was bewildered as to what to do--everything I had read said that babies found it soothing; well this isn't the case I now know (from my own experience and reading it here!). I really felt isolated, because in addition to the car he also hated the stroller and baby carriers (I tried so many kinds). To make things worse, he didn't like anything but a minimal amount of clothing/blankets, especially anything on his head-- I found ways to keep him warm in the winter when we did make trips out, but at first glance one would think I was being neglectful because of seemingly under-dressing him. His crying was so intense during these times, and it actually seemed to hurt my head somewhere deep inside, like a physical pain shooting through... and everyone else agreed that he had a very loud, strong cry. Oy! I still tried to get out of the house as much as I good because I knew it was good for my all-around health (I have to be especially careful of what I do because of a past history of anxiety and depression), but sometimes I just didn't have the inner coping resources/energy and other times I found that it wasn't fair to my DS to subject him to the discomfort more than once a day. It was hard to pass up opportunities for friendship and support through the mom's groups that I was invited to (I had to work on creating a new community for myself, of women who were mothers, since most of my friends pre-baby were childless) and I certainly wasn't getting out to see the good friends I already had. I definitely had some days where I felt depressed, lonely, and unsure of myself in my parenting role--and I didn't know if/when I would ever feel like I could enjoy a dog walk with my DS, or a fun jaunt to the mall, etc. But yes, at 7 months, things changed-- I was so happy that I again do some of these things that I enjoy!

Anyway, I won't go into the things I found helpful during that spell, since so many people have already posted some great things... I just wanted to say that I totally understand that things like this can be very upsetting to a parent, and I don't think it is helpful to create a sort of continuum of 'how bad things are'. We experience things differently, we have good days and some not-so-good ones, and we really don't know what it is like to be in another person's shoes... I sure hope that anybody who posts on here, whether they are looking for guidance or simply a listening ear, that they receive nothing but compassion and warmth. Let's leave the judgements of us as women and mothers, out of it.


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## samalama10 (Oct 3, 2010)

My baby was/is exactly the same. He is 10 months now. Sometimes radio static works, or this Latin guitar cd I have, and I considered a DVD player. I actually put him front facing and it solved it. I know it's not good, but I was desperate. I would keep singing and talking to him, so it's not like CIO, and try the DVD player. The Latin cd I used that worked until 7 or 8 months for us is called rodrigo y Gabriela.


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## WinterPrego (Dec 20, 2010)

I haven't taken the time to read all the posts(there are quite a few!) so I don't know if someone has already suggested this, but have you tried a pacifier? My DS is 2 months, and there is like a 10-15 min window where he will be quiet, but after that his patience is gone, so we keep a pacifier near by to offer him, and sometimes it works! lol It is rough to have them scream and not be able to soothe them, but it really does get better. Also, I know babies tend to prefer certain types of paci's over others, so if he doesn't like one, it can't hurt to try another!


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## Nikitta34 (Jul 20, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrsSurplus*
> 
> I do NOT view it as CIO because there's nothing else I can do. You CAN go pick up a child out of a crib - but you legally can't take your child out of his carseat while the car is in motion. AND, the intentions are different. I'm not strapping a child in his carseat and thinking, "you're just going to have to learn to like this because mommy needs you to" but "we HAVE to go somewhere; I know you don't like your carseat and I feel for you, but it's the safest place for you while we're driving." Totally different things.


I agree with this 100%. Several of my friends have babies who don't like their carseats, and they got this strap-over toy that the babies can look at and play with. I don't have one myself, but my friends all said it really helped their babies enjoy their carseats. Maybe you can try this before you go the dvd player route?

http://www.amazon.com/Tiny-Love-Sunny-Stroll-Strollers/dp/B000S9RF4M/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IOGZOJ4IJOODW&colid=3JFKDE1ZZVA1Q


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

A 10 m/o FF?! That is illegal I am sure. I would rather my kid scream the whole ride than risk his life

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *samalama10*
> 
> My baby was/is exactly the same. He is 10 months now. Sometimes radio static works, or this Latin guitar cd I have, and I considered a DVD player. I actually put him front facing and it solved it. I know it's not good, but I was desperate. I would keep singing and talking to him, so it's not like CIO, and try the DVD player. The Latin cd I used that worked until 7 or 8 months for us is called rodrigo y Gabriela.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

a perfect example of - to each its own.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

NO that's not "to each their own" that's child endangerment.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> NO that's not "to each their own" that's child endangerment.


This. And so so illegal.


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> This. And so so illegal.


agreed, after the legal age, THEN it's personal choice (even if I personally think that you should rear face as long as possible)


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

ok... hang on, ya'll. let's figure this out. it depends on in what state the forward facing child resides as to whether or not that's illegal, depending on if the kid is under or over 20 pounds. it's possible that the parent has a really big kid. here's a link, no idea about the authenticity or authority of it, but you get the idea. http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx

*samalama10*, i'm going to hijack this thread for a minute and let you know that folks are concerned about what you're saying about forward facing your child. research now shows that rear facing for as long as possible is the safest thing you can do to protect your baby in a car.

depending upon where you live, you might not be legal to face forward, as well. No one (hopefully) wants to shame or scold you if you hadn't read about why rear facing is better, and here's an article. Here's another one from consumer reports that shows how crashes can damage little ones' necks if forward facing. The american academy of pediatrics supports rear facing in the car seat until your kid is 2!

If you're able to turn your baby back around, it's much much safer.

~~~~~~~~ ok, you guys can keep arguing now....~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## jenhoff (Jun 13, 2006)

My 4 daughters screamed in their car seats when they were infants. My baby is now 14 weeks old and more often than not screams until she chokes until I get her out  It helps to a degree when I sit next to her and hold her hand and sing to her. She usually has a much older sister with her and sometimes she will accept the comfort of a pacifier. Even that has limited success --I'd say she screams about 60% of the time in the car. So its not about being isolated. It may be the infant seat. It is likely frustration and I'd say an angry kind of cry. She can get that worked up when her toy falls out of her hand at home. The difference is that at home I hand her the toy or pick her up and all is right with the world and I can't do that in the car.

By wearing my baby most of the time and comforting her immediately I think she expects it in the car too. The best I can do is to find alternatives to driving with her. My older daughters (7,10 and 15 years) have needs and desires that I'd like to meet too. I never considered leaving my other babies with a care giver to avoid driving with them but I do it now. 20 minutes here and there works for us and there are few to no tears. I hope that this changes soon because her sisters and I would like to take her to some wonderful places soon  I'll look into getting the Britax as a rear facing seat since that is what she will need next anyhow.

Nice to know that mine aren't the only babies who scream in the car.


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## MnMtm (Jan 15, 2008)

Just a thought; what kind of carseat do you have? We have a Baby Trend, and my DS HATED car rides for months until my chiropractor mentioned something- does your carseat have a bump or ridge in the back? Ours did, and our my DS needed to be adjusted where the ridge was. He hated the carseat because it hurt him to sit in it, especially over bumpy roads. We put a thin folded up recieving blanket behind the top layer of padding but over the hard foam that had the bump in it. You couldn't feel the hard bump from the outside anymore, and it made all the difference. My son didn't love the carseat after this, but he didn't scream every car ride all car ride long like he had been doing. So, maybe check your carseat; do you feel a ridge?


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## Czarena (Nov 15, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> ok... hang on, ya'll. let's figure this out. it depends on in what state the forward facing child resides as to whether or not that's illegal, depending on if the kid is under or over 20 pounds. it's possible that the parent has a really big kid. here's a link, no idea about the authenticity or authority of it, but you get the idea. http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx
> 
> ...


Hm... I honestly had no idea that some states did not specify. I would like to point out however that most car seat manufacturers (I say most as I don't know for sure all, but all that I have seen) state on the car seat that it is designed to be rear facing until at least 1 year AND 20 lbs (i think 20lbs).

So I'd encourage the mom that started this off shoot to check the car sear standards for her specific car seat as well as the helpful link above about the state laws


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## LeslieintheKeys (Dec 4, 2007)

I too was in your position with a baby who hated the car. She is now 8 months old and it's getting better, but it was horrible. My mother said it was worse being in the car with me than listening to her cry. It just affected me so much because I couldn't soothe her. Very stressful.

Here's what I tried:


rolling down the windows (helps with the pressure on their little ears)
music
clip-on music mobile
clip-on stroller fan (she really liked this one)
sleep sheep
mirror 

Best ones were rolling down windows and fan. Someone suggested a convertible car seat because it sits higher up. We didn't give this a good try though so I have no opinion on this idea.

Good luck. It will get better.


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## PPod (Apr 16, 2011)

Not sure if the OP is still around, but some things that worked with my little boy - sucking on a finger (could your 4yo lend a finger?!), having a dangly toy to look at and bat, listening to me sing (Old Macdonald or 'If you're happy and you know it...' - it helped my stress levels to sing, and maybe your 4yo can join in to make it more of a game for him as well). He got better as the months passed and these days (9mo) if he has a couple of toys he'll usually play happily. I wouldn't offer a finger any more because of those sharp little teeth!

Has anyone tried making a DVD of themselves and playing that to unhappy babe? I have no idea if it would work, just occurred to me as PPs were suggesting a DVD player.

Good luck OP, you're obviously a loving mum doing your best to keep both your little men happy.


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## Crys Andson (Jul 18, 2011)

Here are some ideas that might help 1. try a car bed I believe your baby is still young enough for to use one. and to what about useing a wind up baby tv thing that winds up and play scenes that scroll bye while it plays songs, I'm sure you know what I mean , you probley had one when you were little 3. have your 4 year old be your special helper and sit by the baby and make an interactive bright light toy go for the baby, a little special play time may help. 5. set a vebrating pillow againest car seat so it vibrate and kinda rocks the baby. 6.use a warm water bottle and fake heart beat toy to make baby feel like he does when you carry him.


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## jackimari1 (Dec 12, 2009)

Not crying it out but I totally understand. When my babies scream in the car, I could literally have a heart attack. It's awful. So sorry!!! He will outgrow this though...they outgrow almost everything!!!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PPod*
> 
> Has anyone tried making a DVD of themselves and playing that to unhappy babe? I have no idea if it would work, just occurred to me as PPs were suggesting a DVD player.


Also, you could just try taping a picture of you to the seat back so he can see your face the whole time??


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## Tmama (Nov 6, 2010)

First off - wow...at the number of responses this post got! I wish I had the time to read every single one but I cannot possibly do that right now. But thank you to all of for your suggestions! I realize a lot of the discussions from this post were in response to one another and so on but for the most part, I'm floored!

As far as some of the suggestions go:

I have always used a paci - when he was crying that hard - he wouldn't even close his mouth to suck on the darn thing

I use white noise - made for babies downloaded from iTunes. It works sometimes...but not really

It's def. not the car seat. He is fine in it until later.

BUT - update - he has gotten a little better. I bought this paci plushie thing that hooks onto his paci (this animal) and he holds it. Not only does he hold it but, when he cries and the paci falls out of his mouth, I can locate it better and grab it at red lights. So, for some reason, he is now taking the paci in the car and it does soothe him. It didn't before. So, he takes it and when he does cry, I pray for red lights so that I can locate paci and re-insert and he HAS dosed off to sleep several times. In those times, I am so thankful. Even my 4 yo got excited that he calmed down and slept, LOL. When DH is around, he drives and I'm back there in between 2 car seats (not comfy) and DS is fine! Phew...

So, every day will get better I guess and I will be getting the next car seat soon but I am still convinced there is no hurry in that yet - since he really is fine in the car seat when I buckle him in while still in the house. Also, I know it's that he just can't settle down on his own and just fall asleep...he needs some extra comfort to do so, so that is mostly where the crying comes in. That and the fact that he is alone back there and he can't really see his brother...his car seat doesn't really let him see much other than whats right in front of him.

Thank you to all for you help and sharing your stories with me...it has helped me a great deal!!! It's still tough - especially in this heat - but then again, because of the heat wave this week, we're not going anywhere! Way too hot outside for anyone!

As for my 4yo - he does love camp. Truth be told, since this baby has been born, I'm still adjusting to 2 kids so, yeah, there are days that he doesn't get full on attention that he's been used to and played with in the way that I would like - one on one. We tried it, since we thought it would be good for him, and it turns out he loves it. He gets to swim, cooking, crafts and play with all his buddies that he goes to school with. So, yeah, 2 days a week of that? I think it's worth it. He deserves a good time that unfortunately, I cannot always guarantee him. I struggle with mom guilt every day to meet both kids needs fully, and I do try, but I keep thinking I'm short changing someone. Even though that may not be the case, it's hard when you had one kid for 4 years getting one on one time all the time and that is all they know..,thats where my guilt comes in. But I"m getting better every day...

I'm all for AP but I do see how it can be hard to be the best AP mama to multiple kids...man, is it hard! Thank God for baby wearing!!


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## Deannalynn (Apr 6, 2004)

Listen to your gut/instincts. RESPOND. Your baby is communicating. You are the expert on your baby. (I've read some but not all other posts - this is my 1st forum ever... but felt compelled to reply. It seems that the view of a few people is to come down on mom for being "over reactive or over sensitive or some other "over" something. There is a reason you have the impulse to respond to your babies cries! You are designed that way... physiologically... hormones release). I have been in your shoes twice. I have 9y old & 11 mo old boys. Neither liked the car (understatement!!!)... both have GER. Both got better over time.... but until then it was stressfull on everyone. I spent lots of time on the side of the road nursing and calming my babies. (Often there was a reason...needed to burp or toot... needed a diaper change... or as quite a few MDs said it common for reflux babies to be in discomfort in the confined sitting position). But nevertheless I needed to be able to go some places. I tried everything: I finally tried a pacifier with both (not something I am even for) but neither would take one. The things that helped... helped in increments over time: mirror so I could see a he could see me, music, and yes - even baby einstein video in dvd player (even though they really couldn't see it except thru the mirror - the music calmed them both (all the video naysayers for babies... I would rather have 20 mins of soothing video for my baby than 20 minutes of uncontrollable crying with no comfort (imagine being a disabled senior completely dependent upon a caregiver... and you soil yourself, or you're hungry or lonely or you're in pain and you call out and cry and noone responds and you are left waiting to some unknown time for a response.. imagine how long seconds would seem.. imagine what that would do to your quality of life... imagine how stressful and emotional... imagine the impact physically - but I digress); baby crackers (lifesaver) & cup of juice (both drank ones with straw at 5 mo); toys; oh and with my youngest I changed the carseat to a britax and saw a big difference. But until it got better I was selective when and where I went...not so easy when you have 2 and you need to drive to/from school & sports etc and planned ahead with my (bag of tricks) and planned for extra time so that I could pull over as needed. I changed my mindset to expect to pull over rather than expect to get from point A to point B without a problem. I tuned out all the other moms who have babies that love the car and fall asleep in the car and everything is tra la la in the car. They will never understand and will tend to be overcritical... assuming there is something wrong with your parenting. Even pediatricians can be this way. One doctor said "just keep driving - it won't kill him". Yeah well, giving my baby diet coke and candy bars won't kill him either - but I'm pretty sure no one would advocate that. By tuning into your baby... you will become your babies expert... you will be able to discern underlying issues/concerns...believe in the value of his cries. I still go to bat for my 9 yr old... when others want to disbelieve him... I trust what he is telling me... and sure enough whatever it was gets validated. Be patient with yourself and your baby. This period of time will pass. Oh and ask for help from others... dad, grandma, friend etc to drive your eldest child...and/or watch your baby for a short while. Show your eldest child how to soothe your baby in the car. I hope some of my suggestions help.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *changingseasons*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


It's not even that it may be offensive to some....my own problem is that it's your opinion being presented (by you) as cold, hard fact. I do understand the distinction you made about touch. And I'll ask you about that, again: If a baby crying uncontrollably = a baby that is possibly terrified or traumatized (your words), then how would being held in his mother's arms while he's crying/screaming/terrified make any difference to the baby? *If the baby can't understand the mother's intention and can't be soothed by her presence, scent or voice, then what is so different about being in her arms?*


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

woah i had no idea the new law is 1 year AND 20 pounds. i had dd pre 2007 so never had that rule. i think for us is was OR. so yeah ok. now i see it IS illegal.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> This. And so so illegal.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> * If the baby can't understand the mother's intention and can't be soothed by her presence, scent or voice, then what is so different about being in her arms?*


I am not who you are speaking to, but would like to respond (briefly) anyways. I have 3 children. None were good in the car, and my oldest was awful! My voice, scent did not seem to cut it - they really did respond much better to being picked up (something impossible to do while driving). Perhaps you had a baby that was able to be soothed to the point of not screaming by voice? If so, you were lucky! That does not work for all babies.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think the point she's making is that being picked up doesn't work for all babies either. Not that voice works.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I think the point she's making is that being picked up doesn't work for all babies either. Not that voice works.


Gotcha.


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## s98spunky (Apr 18, 2008)

Hi there -- I have huge empathy for what you're experiencing. Nothing helped my son, who did the exact same thing until he was about 1 1/2 or 2 years old. At that time he had become verbal enough to converse with me about what we saw out the windows. That changed everything. Until then, nothing worked, not switching to face front, not new seats, not music, not singing parents. Often when we went on long car trips to visit family we had to unexpectedly get a hotel room halfway. There was no stopping the crying. I think he just felt "wrong" strapped in a seat, and knew that my body was unavailable to him as comfort (trying to twist to nurse him never worked for us), and he couldn't bear that separation. I hope your child will outgrow it sooner than mine did, and I advocate your use of any tool that helps you to get through in the meantime!


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## petram (Oct 3, 2008)

I wouldn't be able to handle my baby crying for 80 minutes a day at all! No way, never! Just throwing out some ideas:

My first question would be, do you really think camp is so important for your 4 year old? Compared to the suffering of your 3 month old who can't understand at all what is going on (and also your suffering at not being able to follow your powerful maternal instincts to pick up your crying baby)? I'm pretty sure the negative for the newborn would much outweigh the positive for your 4 year old?

Can someone else take your 4 year old to camp (travel with another family who also go to camp, could a grandparent take him/her)?

Is there public transport that could get you to the camp? My baby hated the car because he couldn't be in my arms....public transport was no problem at all.

Is there some one else who could look after your baby while you drive your 4 yo to camp? (I know you are an attachment parent, but I think leaving baby with some one else would be better than the 80 minutes screaming).

Could you stay around at camp, take a book with you, hang out at the lake if they have one? At least then you'd just have to drive there and back once?

Does baby take a pacifier? Even if you don't like them, in this case I think it's called for.

I wouldn't show a 3 month old a DVD...no way...I think this comes back to the question of whether the benefits for your 4 yo really outweigh the negatives for your baby.

I hope you find a solution, it sounds like a really difficult situation, feeling for you xx


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## darbycrash (Jul 22, 2011)

Holy crap. I thought my baby was the only one that did this. I have PPD and the docs and midwives told me to "get out" but he hates being in the car. The first five minutes he's okay and then he's just like yours, screaming, crying beet red. I hate it. He does this when I sit in the back with him, when his papa sits with him, I can sing, talk or even touch his head and nothing helps. He just hates it. There's a heatwave here where I live and if I want to get exercise I've got to drive to a mall and walk around. He falls asleep in the sling but as soon as I pop him out and we get moving he wakes up and cries all the way to destination. At least I'm going back to work soon and will get exercise there. He's 10 weeks by the way. I hope it helps to know you're not alone, it helps me but when we get in the car and the baby starts screaming it's cold comfort. From all the other posts it sounds temporary so lets hold on to that.


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## abiyhayil (Feb 8, 2008)

My LO is the same way, but when we open the windows she quiets down very quickly. Maybe you could start the car and then get the kids in, or get the baby in the seat on the opposite side of the car so you're not shutting the door directly next to him? With my first, I nursed him after he got buckled into his seat. Maybe put a cool water bottle next to him if he is getting too sweaty or protecting him from the AC flow if he is too chilly? It is so hard to drive when the baby is that upset : (

ETA: I just saw how many posts there are! I just wanted to add in case it wasn't said, I like to make sure the baby has on a collared top so the straps aren't sitting right on her neck.


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## ezwicker (Dec 18, 2007)

My son cried in the car until he was a year old and forward facing. Things that sometimes calmed him when he was very small: very loud static or music on the radio, a bottle of pumped milk.


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## Disco Infiltrator (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm going take a different approach, and it's coming late in the discussion. Crying it out is a terrible thing to do to a baby. They are in great need of comfort and asking for it, and intentionally refusing to give this to them is, in my opinion, criminal. That said, babies will cry, because they are really traumatized by being in the world, they are so brand-new, and that is how they communicate. I honestly don't believe that our jobs as parents are to be perfect at every moment, as a matter of fact I see this search for parental perfection as an act of self-aggression. If you can't be preventing crying at every opportunity, you have not failed. So you do the best you can at all times, and you be gentle with yourself when you're not 100%, and maybe you'll reach 80% on a good day, but all of that is better than parenting with the idea that your child should bend to YOUR will, should be convenient and that there are no consequences to your parenting choices.

The car seat is one of those times when it is simply impossible to meet that baby's needs. It's a necessary evil, and it's one that has brought me to tears many many times. I know it's not optimal but I also know that there is something to be said about our voices, even sometimes our touch if you're flexible enough, or our songs, that do help a little and do tell our kids that we are there even if we can't be holding them at that moment.

A happy baby is one that has a happy family. A happy family is one where the needs of all members are met as much as possible. This means that the older sib may sacrifice some things because of the baby's needs, but it also means that the baby might not get the same level of interventions that a person can give to a single child. I know that the transition to being a big brother has been really difficult for my son, and if having camp twice a week would offer some salve for his sweet wounded soul, I would do it. Even if it meant some crying in the car for the baby. Because that baby is more resilient than people realize. The kids who aren't as resilient tend to be older kids. Look at babies coming out of horrible conditions in Russian orphanages - the ones adopted younger can grow up normally, the ones adopted older, let's say around two, end up with higher rates of RAD. So yes, cortisol will be released in the car, and the baby will hear mama's voice but not feel mama's touch. The baby will be really happy to be back in mama's arms, and the baby will survive, because that's what babies do. They're resilient and flexible and adaptable. The most important thing is that the baby will form a secure attachment to its parents, and a car ride twice a week is not going to change any of that. And trust me, I have gone through hell and back not crying it out with my kids, and I am deeply opposed to it. I still don't see the necessary evil of the car seat as crying it out.

So, OP, I'm really glad to hear things are going better. Ease up on the guilt, mama. You're doing the best you can and it's a hard thing to go from one to two kids. Your baby will be fine and already feels so loved. I just think about the teenagers I saw once on the bus with a baby in a car seat. The baby was never touched or held, no one looked at the baby or talked to the baby, it just sat there, not talking or crying. There were four girls with the baby, heading to a high school basketball game, and there was no way I could tell which one of them was the mother. That's pretty uncool. A baby who hates the car seat and a mama who is so upset about it that she's crying - that's an empathetic and caring parent. Word.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

There is no serious empirical evidence that occasional spells of sustained crying cause brain damage. None. I've looked at the anti-CIO stuff and really, it doesn't support this. If crying caused brain damage, colicky, sick, and high-needs babies would all grow up to be brain-damaged. Also, pediatricians would be far more concerned about crying in babies.

I had a car crier, and I know, it's awful, but you can release this particular worry.


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## darbycrash (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm not the op but thank you for this, i feel lots better


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