# So if you don't spank....what do you do?



## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

What do you do with blatant out and out disrespect?

DD, age 3, spit in my mom's face tonight.

*I* would have been spanked for this. Absolutely no questions asked.

you have to know my dd to know that yes, she knew EXACTLY what she was doing, she was mad and she was letting her know. She knows full well it is wrong to spit at somebody, she was doing it precisely because she was angry and wanted to get a rise. (This is a highly intelligent, very verbal, intense, dramatic child. An absolute love.)

I heard about it after the fact.

So, what do you do? Because I know I don't want to spank for this kind of thing, but I want to make it absolutely 100% clear this is NOT COOL. (my first experience with a child who does this kind of thing DS1 never would have thought of it)


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## COgirl19 (Dec 26, 2009)

I have a similar question too, wish I had advice. DD does outright disrespect us sometimes (she is similar in age to your DD). In our family we want to make it very clear that this is inappropriate and won't be tolerated but I am not sure what to do. We try talking about her feelings but my only suggestion is maybe to say "I know you are angry but you cannot act this way...try this to release your anger..." The problem is that I don't know what "this" is and what would work for her. Punching a pillow? a time-out to cool down? I am still working on this.

ETA: One thing we have a time with is a blatant, obstinate "NO!" when we ask her to do something (like pick a toy she threw or something) I am clueless what to do here. I want to be gentle and understanding but I we need to help her understand that sometimes she must do what we ask (especially if it involves her safety).


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

It's hard to answer that type of question, really. Because there isn't one thing that I do *instead* of spanking. There's not something that replaces spanking. It's a whole different type of relationship and interaction, kwim?

What I would likely do in that situation (I'm trying to think back to a situation where ds did something that was totally NOT ok, and I was completely appalled by what he did)

I respond with a "what in the world are you doing?!?!?!" type of voice. I say "NO! You can't do THAT!! No. Absolutely NOT ok." (This is said in a really firm "I mean it" voice, but not mean). Then I figure out what he was trying to express, and give him a more socially appropriate way to express it. If he's mad, I tell him that it's ok to be angry, but it's NOT ok to harm anyone or invade their space. I tell him that if he's angry he can X, Y, or Z.

Then later on, in a calm moment, I'd talk to him about the situation. It would be a light conversation, no blaming, no being mad. Just "You must have been angry earlier. What do you think you could have done instead of {what he did}?" Just kind of chit chatting about it.

I don't take hitting or any type of harming or invading others' space lightly. It always gets dealt with, and I definitely convey that it's completely unacceptable. But the key is to give them other ways to express themselves, and help them find ways that feel easy to them.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
What do you do with blatant out and out disrespect?

DD, age 3, spit in my mom's face tonight.

*I* would have been spanked for this. Absolutely no questions asked.

you have to know my dd to know that yes, she knew EXACTLY what she was doing, she was mad and she was letting her know. She knows full well it is wrong to spit at somebody, she was doing it precisely because she was angry and wanted to get a rise. (This is a highly intelligent, very verbal, intense, dramatic child. An absolute love.)

I heard about it after the fact.

So, what do you do? Because I know I don't want to spank for this kind of thing, but I want to make it absolutely 100% clear this is NOT COOL. (my first experience with a child who does this kind of thing DS1 never would have thought of it)

So you think she knows it's not cool already, right? Which is why she did it?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *COgirl19* 
I have a similar question too, wish I had advice. DD does outright disrespect us sometimes (she is similar in age to your DD). In our family we want to make it very clear that this is inappropriate and won't be tolerated but I am not sure what to do. We try talking about her feelings but my only suggestion is maybe to say "I know you are angry but you cannot act this way...try this to release your anger..." The problem is that I don't know what "this" is and what would work for her. Punching a pillow? a time-out to cool down? I am still working on this.

ETA: One thing we have a time with is a blatant, obstinate "NO!" when we ask her to do something (like pick a toy she threw or something) I am clueless what to do here. I want to be gentle and understanding but I we need to help her understand that sometimes she must do what we ask (especially if it involves her safety).

I think the thing to remember is that you can clearly communicate that it's uncool and inappropriate and disrespectful...without being disrespectful to the child.

It's much easier to communicate that, in fact, when you are modeling respect. I totally understand, BTW, and I fight my punitive impulses constantly, but I've also seen that these behaviors happen no matter what. And most kids grow out of them, and the more respectful you are of them, the faster they grow out of them.


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

I would have done an instant time-out on the spot.

I do talk with dd and figure out where the behavior is coming from together.

But for extreme and sudden disrespect with full knowledge of what's she's doing; I do think that there needs to be kind of a strong reaction so that the kid knows that what she did to Grandma is beyond the bounds of just acting out, yk?

BTW, my daughter sounds a lot like what you described. It is very challenging having an intelligent, spirited, verbal little girl, and I'm not the expert by any means.

But for my girl, she'd have got a time-out and then we'd have talked w/ gma about how she felt when dd spit in her face.


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## RoViMama (Nov 10, 2009)

"DD, age 3, spit in my mom's face tonight."

My DD, age 3, did this very same thing to me last night, after she told her uncle to "Shut up you (something I didn't understand)"

"*I* would have been spanked for this. Absolutely no questions asked."

I had the same thoughts. As I was carrying her downstairs for an early bed time, I was thinking the same thing. I was taking deep breathes and I walked away (quickly) after she spit in my face.

"(This is a highly intelligent, very verbal, intense, dramatic child. An absolute love.) "

Same here. But I am partly to blame for this time. I know the reason Roey was acting like this was b/c she had eaten a candy necklace. She rarely has dyes or straight sugar and she becomes a different child when exposed to those things. Needless to say, the rest of the necklaces are in the trash. She did not like being by herself but she couldn't be with the rest of the family because she was not keeping our bodies safe. She had to apologize to her uncle and to me. (I think she understood this). We discussed keeping herself and this family safe.

But the old ways are in my brain. I do not act on them but the thoughts are there. I think I may error on the side of not doing anything b/c I'm not alwasy sure what the "right" thing is to do.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

My DD wouldn't do this i don't think. She hits, but spitting hasn't occurred to her, or maybe she's never seen it...? No idea.

Anyway if she spit in my face i would register, verbally and through expression/body language, DEEP disgust. I would stop immediately, mid-word even, and walk away. If she followed me (which of course she would) i would tell her that spitting is SO disgusting and SO disrespectful and SO revolting that i really couldn't look at her or speak to her for a little while. I would ask her to sit somewhere and have a think about how she'd behaved.

When i wasn't shaking with rage (and i WOULD be if anyone spit in my face!) i would talk to her, explain why i had reacted as i did, and then get an apology and have our usual make-up hug.

I don't know if any of that is "right" or AP, but i wouldn't spank and it's what i'd probably do.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

think even though your dd is very verbal and gets most things, i think still at three they do have a hard time always finding the words to say exactly how pissed off they are. yes, it is disrespectful, but was she being disrespected? not that it makes the spitting ok, but maybe would give you an idea of why she did it? maybe once everyone calms down i would talk with her, find out what happened from her view point.
an example: like your getting her ready for bed, she keeps saying she wants to stay up, but she needs to do to bed, so your not listening and she gets mad, because her words are not working so she spits. that is her way to get you to stop and listen. not the best method, but she is little and doesn't have a way to make you listen.
and i have to say that sometimes i lack words and some times i just scream (not at anyone, just sort of howl up at the sky) when i just can't figure out what to do.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

My daughter went through a spitting phase, and I consistently gave her timeouts in her room for it, and explained that her behavior was disrespectful, hurtful and rude and she can't expect people to want to be around her if that's how she treats them.

She got over it. It tapered off into doing it "playfully" with s sort of "cutesy" demeanor, which I think was her testing to see if she would still have consequences for it, and then completely stopped.

You know what helps me with not spanking, is just to tell myself I have NO RIGHT to hit my child, and so I must deal with her as I would deal with any other person who I have no right to hit. If you think of your kid as someone you are somehow "allowed" to hit, it's a lot easier to slip and fall back on spanking.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Even if she's very verbal, that doesnt' mean she's good at talking about her emotions, or even understanding and processing her emotions.

"I understand you are angry, but we do not spit at people when we are angry." And then either give her an alternative, "Just tell grandma you are angry if you're angry." Or ask her to come up with an alternative. "Can you think of another, more respectful, way to let people know when you are angry."

Treat it like a teaching opportunity. Spitting is not OK, and this is how she is learning that. So talk to her about the big emotions she's feeling that make her want to spit, and then help her find ways to name and deal with her emotions that work and are respectful.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

The only thing that helps me, when I am THAT MAD (and I would be PISSED to have anyone spit in my face, least of all my own son) is to think about how I'd handle t if it were a child in my class (I used to teach preschool and also worked in a public school). Obviously I couldn't hit the kid, so what would do instead?

I really struggle too with not spanking for outright disrespect. It's hard to look at the long term effects sometimes when you are in the middle of a really hard parenting moment.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

We do consequences...

If you don't sit down while eating the popcicle, it goes in the garbage.

We take 'breaks' in the crib...

When you behave like this, it means you need a break. Do you need a break?

We distract...

Want a popsicle? Let's read a book. Where's the dog? Go give this random object to Daddy.

It's hard and imperfect. Especially when outside the home environment. We recently traveled by plane and it was a disaster on all fronts. By the end of the trip, I was physically pinning DD to my body b/c she persisted in running away, trying to get out the air terminal door into the street. I spent a lot of time reminding myself that spanking does not work.

Spanking never works. Other discipline options occasionally work or manifest positively at some distant point in the future so there's no immediate payoff, kwim? Overall, discipline is flawed and prone to gaps in efficacy imo. I don't think any discipline method really works all that great. Especially with younger kids. So it helps not to expect too much.

Spitting for me would be an immediate sharp and horrified NO probably followed by some yelling about unacceptable behavior (which isn't helpful) and removal from situation. As in, we're going home right now this instant and no more fun activities or visits for the day.

V


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

My three year old went through a spitting phase recently.

If he is not being civil enough to be around other people, we remove him from the situation. I'll either sit with him in the bedroom or, if he spits at me while I'm carrying him, I'll leave him by himself to try and get control of his body. He's allowed to come back whenever he wants (which is usually within a few seconds, heh), but we go right back into the bedroom if he does it again. We also encouraged him to verbalize his emotions ("I'm mad!!!!") instead of spitting.

It rarely happens any more.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero* 
I would have done an instant time-out on the spot.

I do talk with dd and figure out where the behavior is coming from together.

But for extreme and sudden disrespect with full knowledge of what's she's doing; I do think that there needs to be kind of a strong reaction so that the kid knows that what she did to Grandma is beyond the bounds of just acting out, yk?

I agree (sort of). I would first give her the option of helping grandma clean her face, but if she refused then she would be immediately sat to watch grandma clean it up herself, while I explained that there are better ways to deal with anger (I would also explain that the mess grandma is cleaning, was made by her - by this time I would assume that she knew to clean up her own messes). She would then get a time out (which I almost never agree with), and when time out was done, we would discuss (calmly) her reasons for why she felt so angry in the first place.

I would basically treat it the same way as if she were to hit, kick, or bite. The difference being that spitting hurts emotionally (as opposed to physically), but my point is that she's still acting out in anger, and that's what I would deal with (not specifically the action itself, although that would definitely be addressed).


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Even if she's very verbal, that doesnt' mean she's good at talking about her emotions, or even understanding and processing her emotions.

"I understand you are angry, but we do not spit at people when we are angry." And then either give her an alternative, "Just tell grandma you are angry if you're angry." Or ask her to come up with an alternative. "Can you think of another, more respectful, way to let people know when you are angry."

Treat it like a teaching opportunity. Spitting is not OK, and this is how she is learning that. So talk to her about the big emotions she's feeling that make her want to spit, and then help her find ways to name and deal with her emotions that work and are respectful.

I love this. This is the reason why I would not remove her from the situation until after she's seen (and understood) what just happened. And even then, a time out would ONLY happen in my home if the child were not showing ANY signs of remorse. The time out would be a "calm down" period (of probably one minute) and when they are ready to talk, we will reconnect and discuss it in a similar manner mentioned above.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I have never been a fan of time-outs, but I do believe in removing a child from an emotionally charged situation.

Others have already said what I would say regarding spanking. I always try to remember that the word discipline means "to teach", not to punish. Teaching a child how TO behave is more effective than teaching them what NOT to do, but it is an ongoing process. A child learns to treat others with respect by watching his parents treat others with respect - including the child himself.

Spitting is disgusting, and evokes a very visceral response in adults - but it probably doesn't create the same feelings in a young child. Little kids figure out what is and is not appropriate by trying things out - the first time he climbs up on the kitchen counter to get to the cookie jar, he doesn't realize it's dangerous. Same with spitting. The first time simething happens I treat it as a learning experience - and the lesson is that we do NOT spit! If it continues, that's a different story.

I have twin boys, and when they were that age, if I stopped one from doing something (like standing on a chair), the other would invariably do exactly the same thing. They hadn't made the generalization yet that the rules applied equally to both of them (or they figured they had better check to make sure). They simply weren't able to learn from each other's mistakes at that age (luckily that changed!)


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

We discuss rude behavior with my 4 year DD when she is calm. She's very social and cares about how other people feel about her so I focus on how other people respond to rudeness and how our behavior and choices are an expression of what kind of person we want to be. We've been dealing with yelling and being bossy lately, so we talk about how she would feel if people yelled at her or rudely ordered her to do stuff. Then we talk about what other people might think of us if we treat them that way ....etc.

We mainly teach manners and respect by modeling it. I also remind myself that my DD is still very much learning how to be a person, especially learning how to deal appropriately with strong emotions. Our DD is also very intense and dramatic but wasn't very verbal early (she verbal now). Her first impulse when angry is to shout, throw something or both. We've gotten to where she says she's angry, goes to her room and slams the door. Sometimes I will suggest she go to her room until she feels less rude.


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## buckeye_bebe (May 16, 2006)

If ya don't spank, ya beat em like a gong. But in all seriousness, with the spitting thing, I took a different approach and made it fun to spit until she got it out of her system. Oh you bet I wanted yell and time out and go back to yelling after the time out. I took a sharp loud tone and did the NO! NO SPITTING AT PEOPLE thing. Then I took her outside with a cup and a pitcher of water and she got to spit water all over the dirt and grass. until she had enough fun with that. She's done it once since then, and that wasn't a real spit, it was a pretend spit, so she got the raised voice, the cup and pitcher, and outside in the grass treatment again. I think it is safe to say there is no more issue now.

And now the rule is, if you have to spit, you spit in the toilet, or go outside and do it discreetly and privately. Very rarely do I turn a punishment in to something enjoyable or an experiment for her, but I think some things are more productive that way. Good luck.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

It's important to remember that spanking isn't being replaced. When I view parents who spank, I really view their relationship as completely punitive - "you will do what I say because I'm bigger" - and that's not my goal for parenting. My goal is to teach my children how to grow into kind, compassionate people.

Neither of my children have ever spit at us, though DD does sometimes spit into the toilet. Spitting for whatever reason just gags me, so I'm sure *my* reaction would be to gag just out of reflex.

I do put my children into time-outs for things that I view as particularly egregious, such as hitting. Spitting probably would go there as well, though not the first time. Time-outs for us are not isolated painful events. They're more "clearly you need a break from everyone," and yes now to my 5YO they are a loss of freedom for a short time.

I also think it's important to note that there's no universal answer to this situation. What I'd actually do in the specific scenario depends on why she did it, what else was going on, her usual relationship with Grandma, etc.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I'd do an immediate time out with a STERN TALKING TO at that point. I rarely break out the "punitive language" but I think spitting combined with Grandma would really tweak me out.

She is really little, she is learning what's expected of her, and what's not ok, a spanking isn't going to help matters at all--but I think this is a situation that I would want to be VERY clear that her actions were unnacceptable.

My DD went through a thing where she did not like her great-grandma, and was very rude to her when she was three. She was also verbal, and spirited, and the only thing that got through to her was me actually demonstrating and telling her how horrified and upset her behavior made me. I told her that I loved Great-Grandma very much--so hurting her feelings just hurt my feelings! It was honestly more words, and deeper than I felt like I should go with DD, but she either got what I was saying, or she could see that I was angry, red-faced, and sputtering and it made an impact. Either way, my reaction was honest and from the gut and though I wouldn't live it again if I had the choice--she did get it/change her behavior going forward.

Not easy, mama--I'm sorry you have to deal with this!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i guess i am not getting this. maybe it is because i have had adults spit at me at work, and when people are spitting they aren't usually able to get you to see what they want and so they are acting out. i would never hit an adult, so i would not hit my kids for it.
we are talking about very young children, people with little to no life experience and very little self control. so the general consensus is to either yell in their face or yell at them, show the disgust at them and then put them in time out. not sure this is effective. how exactly will this teach them how to control their behavior and learn more appropriate ways to express themselves when we are screaming at them. we are losing control, we are showing it is ok to disrespect and to be scary.
i also don't think forcing them to clean up someones face or watch someone clean up their face and then putting them in time out for not being sorry will work on what it is you want them to get from this. think about when you are angry... are you sorry? probably not, and if later you are you have the ability to process your actions, think about it and then feel remorse... you can't force that on someone.
and yes, with 5 kids i have been spit on. it is gross, but i did notice that when they got to the spitting point, they were pretty upset. they had no other way to get me to know how mad they were. this was their last thing... their shout "HEY I AM UPSET! PAY ATTENTION HERE!"
honestly they are young. 3 is young. it is. no matter how talkative, how bright.. three is young. they need guidance on how to express their anger in ways that don't gross people out. hitting and yelling at them just show that that is the way to be pissed at people. so the next time she is upset she screams in grandmas face or spanks her.. then what?
what was happening that mad her upset enough to spit? have you talked to her? got her side of the story? what happened between her and grandma that made her so upset? and why is it that grandma gets the free card and dd has to show respect for her just because grandma is old? was grandma rude to her? not listening? not noticing her feelings? we want them to notice adults feeling, respect people just because and except behavior from them that isn't age appropriate and give none of that back to them. we are the adults here, it is our job to teach, to help guide them.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
so the general consensus is to either yell in their face or yell at them, show the disgust at them and then put them in time out.

I think when people talk about showing disgust or upset, it's because that's an honest, visceral reaction. While I do choose my words carefully with my children, I don't hide when I'm angry or hurt from them either.

DS went through a stage when he would kick while I changed his clothes no matter what we tried. We did reason with him and talk about how much we knew he didn't like it, etc. He still did it until one day, he kicked and caught me in just the right spot that it *really* hurt. I yelled "that hurt" and turned away from him, mainly because I was in so much pain I almost cried. He never did it after that. I wouldn't have yelled like that as a thought-out plan, but it worked because it was honest. If one of my children spit on me, I imagine I'd have a similar reaction.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I speak very sternly to my dd and tell her that her action was not okay and what she needs to do next time, I do not yell or have an adult tantrum and I don't get in her face though I do crouch down so we are at the same level (I think it is scary to have someone sound stern or angry above you). I used to have dd sit until she was done with a particular behavior (it was her choice to decide when she was done). On two occasions she did something that I felt warranted a time-out. Usually talking to her and telling her very clearly that something is not appropriate for our family works. I don't get into the philosophical stuff about whether something that has been done can be called wrong for our family, I just tell her it is not okay and what I expect her to do next time. My dd does best with a to the short and to the point conversation. Role playing while we were calm about what to do when you are angry also worked with her.

I understand wanting to spank a child, especially a three year old. Three was the worst age for me and my dd and there were many occassions when I wanted to (though I never did give in to my angry impulse). I found that it helped to think about the things dd might do that would normally push my buttons and plan my reaction when I was calm. Four was such a lovely age after three and as dd has aged and become more empathetic it has been easier to get her to embrace the house rules and expectations even when she is angry.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

"Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline"

Started to write a whole post about how I'm doing with my toddler, but it's all from that book. The parts that have helped the most are "the moment is as it is" and to consider intent.

In just 17 months, I've already found that my worst parenting, when *I* act like a brat, are when I decide that "she should know better". Since I still need to be a good parent even if "she should know better" it's been really helpful to drop that from my thinking. "She should kno...wrong, she is where she is and I need to deal with reality."


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## chimomma (Aug 1, 2008)

I think I would have looked at her directly with a serious face and told her very firmly "You cannot spit." Then at that point I would probably lift her off the chair and set her down on the floor while saying "no spitting." At which point she would probably start crying and after she calmed down a little bit I would tell her "Spitting is very rude, if you are mad say 'I'm mad.' That is very disrespectful what you did to your grandmother, Grandma doesn't like that. No spitting, if you are mad, say 'I'm mad.'"

I have had a great deal of success with my almost 3 year old lately by telling her how to express herself more directly. So if she is mad and pushes her little brother, or yells because she didn't like how my husband treated her, I tell her things like. "Tell your brother 'I'm mad, don't take my toy.'" Or "tell your father 'be gentle with me.'" If he had been sharp with her. I am trying to teach her how to stand up for herself without being aggressive and it is going better than other things I tried.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

I also got to where I shortened it to " Use your words." when I felt like they needed to speak and not act.

But the spiting thing, I would treat it like biting. An abrupt and stern "No!" and then gently, but abruptly, sitting him or her down on the floor, would be my reaction. Then after a few moments I would briefly explain that spiting on people is "a big no no, use your words next time."

I've done that method for 9.5 years and no spankings. :-D


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

This is my "difficult to discipline" child. My son, now 5, was and is a complete BREEZE in comparison.

Time-outs as in 'by herself" only work for her dad. When she throws a fit because she wants the adult in charge to stop whatever they are doing and escort her to the bathroom--guess what? She now only does this for ME, not dad.

I don't know what DH does differently. I have tried the same thing. (with the bathroom thing I finally decided I was not going to win, even if DH got her to take herself with him--we are talking literally I can see the door from the livingroom. My solution is that if I'm going to spend all this time in there anyway (because she's not going to just drop it like she did for DH) I might as well spend the time introducing DS2 to his potty. that's my main objection to 'escorting' is he invariably ends up in with us getting into crap. Problem solved.)

WIth the incident in question, I did not see it. I don't know exactly what led up to spitting--I think it had something to do with climbing up to attempt to operate the DVD player herself. (A no-no in our house, DD has broken the thing about 3 times, 2 fixable by us.)

I think I'm going to go the route of stern "NO!" followed by a time-away from others and a talk about other ways to handle the feeling behind the action. I am NOT going to sit and facilitate a conversation about what all led up to it. I don't think that will get the message across that I want--which is that NO action on another person's part justifies you spitting in their face.
I'm perfectly OK with talking about being angry and what to do with the feeling of angry.

This is all brand-new territory for me, yes, I am a former preschool employee...but the kids there just did not provoke the same feeling in me that having my own children act out does. There's a HUGE difference for me in seeing MY children do XYZ versus somebody else's child.

and like i said, *I* would have been spanked. That's not what I want to do with my child.
Somebody said it's an entirely different relationship...I see that point. I don't think I'm totally successful in being there but I do see the point. And I'm a lot closer to the point than my parents were....I would really rather my kids do what I ask because they want to um, well do you see where I'm going with this? NOT because they fear me.

I don't want to say 'because they want to make me happy' that's not quite where I was going, I don't want the whole focus of their lives to be on that either.
But I'd rather they do it because they love me rather than because they *fear* me...there. That says it.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
"Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline"

Started to write a whole post about how I'm doing with my toddler, but it's all from that book. The parts that have helped the most are "the moment is as it is" and to consider intent.

In just 17 months, I've already found that my worst parenting, when *I* act like a brat, are when I decide that "she should know better". Since I still need to be a good parent even if "she should know better" it's been really helpful to drop that from my thinking. "She should kno...wrong, she is where she is and I need to deal with reality."

More info on this book? I can't find it in the local lib catalog online so I'll have to ILL request it. Need an author at least


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
so the general consensus is to either yell in their face or yell at them, show the disgust at them and then put them in time out. not sure this is effective.

Hey, not me. I said we talk to my DD, 4 years old, about her rude behavior when she's calmer. Sometimes I suggest she go to her room until she feels like being with people. If she actually spit in my face I'd say "oooo, gross. That was really rude." and I'd get out of spitting range. I might ask her what she was angry about. My DD's rude behavior is usually yelling, being bossy or hitting. I feel preschoolers are very much still learning how to be people so I don't take rudeness personal. Emotional control and manners just aren't completely in place. We're teaching our DD how to behave by modeling so being rude to her when she's rude doesn't make sense. We have reacted loudly when hurt, but it's more a loud "owie!!" followed by a "be more careful/gentle". We don't do timeouts or punitive.

Someone mentioned they want "my kids do what I ask because .....". Well we want our DD to do things because it's a good idea, because the behavior fits the kind of person she wants to be, because she likes being helpful ....... not to please us.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
More info on this book? I can't find it in the local lib catalog online so I'll have to ILL request it. Need an author at least









Becky A. Bailey (here's the Amazon link so you can look through it a bit http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Love-Diff.../dp/0060007753 )

It's in the sticky at the top of the forum too along with some really good books on changing your own attitude.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
I am NOT going to sit and facilitate a conversation about what all led up to it. I don't think that will get the message across that I want--which is that NO action on another person's part justifies you spitting in their face.
I'm perfectly OK with talking about being angry and what to do with the feeling of angry.

Whew, the second part of this addresses the first part. But I'd still talk about the specific thing. You can make it clear the reaction is unacceptable while still working on solutions to what caused the reaction. You just do the solution building at a time removed from the conflict.

It's not "oh you spit about this so we'll figure out how to make it better" it's "hey, you really want to play with the DVD player, but we can't afford for it to get broken, what can you and I do about this?"

Having a delay, e.g. a conflict in the morning, talk to her about solutions after dinner or even the next day as seems reasonable to you, also gives you a chance to check with other people about solutions that have worked with their families. Maybe your family will do something totally different, but just hearing about other solutions can break the feeling that nothing can possibly work.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The problem is that you're looking at this from an adult perspective rather than a 3-year-old's perspective. "No action justifies a response like that." Well, some actions justify a strong reaction. Not spitting, which we understand as adults, but 3-year-olds don't usually have a lot of actions at their disposal and are still learning which reactions are OK and which are off limits. If your 3-year-old feels heard, that you understand why he got so angry, he might feel less need to act out. He's developing a sense of justice and being heard will help him feel less like he needs to get back. As will giving him other actions to take or words to use when he feels he's been wronged and has to respond.

The reason I wouldn't punish is because I don't believe punishment teaches what I want to teach. That doesn't mean "except when something is really bad" because then I would think that punishment works best and therefore has to at least be used when something is really important. I dont' think punishment teaches good behavior ever, therfore I just don't use it. The only reason I think people want to punish in this case is becasue a grandma was involved and they want to appeal to her anger and desire for revenge from having had the child spit at her.

If the problem stared becasue he didn't feel heard and felt like he was wronged, punishing him is just going to make him feel less heard and more wronged. That isn't a solution. Let him know that he's heard, that spitting is not an acceptable way to respond when he gets angry at someone, and give him alternatives. But I do think you should listen to why he was angry because the more he feels he is heard, the less he will act out to be heard.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i also don't think forcing them to clean up someones face or watch someone clean up their face and then putting them in time out for not being sorry will work on what it is you want them to get from this. think about when you are angry... are you sorry? probably not, and if later you are you have the ability to process your actions, think about it and then feel remorse... you can't force that on someone.

If we didn't remove my son from the situation (i.e. "time out"), it would play it out like this:

Me: (does something he doesn't like: takes away a toy he hit his brother with, told him it's bedtime, whatever)
DS: "PFFFFFFFTTTT!!!!"
Me: You may not spit.
DS: "PFFFFFFFT!!!"
Me: I can see that you're very angry. You can say "I am very angry!"
DS: "PFFFT! PFFFFT PFFFFFFT!!!!!!"

He needs to be removed from the situation so that I (and any one else he's targeting) do not continue to be spat on. At the point where he doesn't have the control over himself (understandable, he's three!) to refrain from spitting on or hitting people, it's my job to prevent him from doing so.









The discussing and the processing and the giving of better tools- that all needs to happen, but you're right, it's not going to happen in the moment, and it's not okay to let the behavior continue while the child calms down.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
so the general consensus is to either yell in their face or yell at them, show the disgust at them and then put them in time out. not sure this is effective. how exactly will this teach them how to control their behavior and learn more appropriate ways to express themselves when we are screaming at them. we are losing control, we are showing it is ok to disrespect and to be scary.

Well, i did say that i wasn't touting my approach as AP, only that i don't spank. Also i do not scream at her, i just wouldn't hide my disgust.

And in my own defence i would not have to feign disgust at this sort of behaviour! It provokes a deep disgust response in me, even imagining it makes me mad!









I don't see how it aids my DD for me to hide MY emotions in order to teach her how to handle her own. If anyone ever spits in her face i want her to know it's absolutely fine for her to get out of there, and that when someone is acting like that towards her following her urge to GET AWAY from that person, rather than stay and try to help them, is absolutely ok. I agree that she is young and not in control of her emotions, but to me it is really super important that she gets, as early as possible, that it is NEVER ok to spit in someone's face, no matter WHAT she is feeling. I am happy to delay a lesson in how to handle extreme emotion so i can teach her in the moment how completely unacceptable her behaviour was. For me the discussion about how much she wanted or did not want to do whatever it was which caused the spitting would have happened before it got to spitting. The only way this could happen in my relationship with DD is if i said, once, what needed to happen and her immediate reaction was spitting in my face, which just hasn't happened. I try to help her handle frustration so she doesn't NEED to learn right then how to handle rage.


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## valerie mom of 4 (Jul 9, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chimomma* 
I think I would have looked at her directly with a serious face and told her very firmly "You cannot spit." Then at that point I would probably lift her off the chair and set her down on the floor while saying "no spitting." At which point she would probably start crying and after she calmed down a little bit I would tell her "Spitting is very rude, if you are mad say 'I'm mad.' That is very disrespectful what you did to your grandmother, Grandma doesn't like that. No spitting, if you are mad, say 'I'm mad.'"

I have had a great deal of success with my almost 3 year old lately by telling her how to express herself more directly. So if she is mad and pushes her little brother, or yells because she didn't like how my husband treated her, I tell her things like. "Tell your brother 'I'm mad, don't take my toy.'" Or "tell your father 'be gentle with me.'" If he had been sharp with her. I am trying to teach her how to stand up for herself without being aggressive and it is going better than other things I tried.

I agree with all of this. We are also working on using our words and putting an emotion to a specific action.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
Somebody said it's an entirely different relationship...I see that point. I don't think I'm totally successful in being there but I do see the point. And I'm a lot closer to the point than my parents were....I would really rather my kids do what I ask because they want to um, well do you see where I'm going with this? NOT because they fear me.

I believe for people who grew up being spanked that it's a process to get there. Despite lots of turmoil as a child, my mother did not believe in spanking. It wasn't part of my childhood, and so it's really easy for me to look at it completely from an outsider's perspective. My ILs did spank, and my husband struggles with the same idea of "then what do you do when..." It's been a journey for him to work on learning other ways to handle conflict.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow.

I already posted my reply, so I wasn't going to reply a second time, but I really wanted to comment on the amount of disrespect going on in this thread. Not just from the children, but from the parents as well.

Can someone explain to me how using a form of withdrawl (love, physical, etc) as punishment for bad behavior, helps our children to be anything other than compliant to our demands (ie. child chooses not to spit to avoid a punishment like being sent to the corner), as opposed to teaching them a different way to deal with their emotions?

This is a gentle discipline forum, and I see nothing gentle about this method whatsoever.

I'm not trying to be rude... I'm just trying to understand.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I think that the most healing thing for me was realizing that I didn't have to do anything in those sorts of situations.

I think the hardest thing about the punishment mindset is the nearly compulsive feeling that I *must* do something to react.

In what you describe, I think I'd likely say something like, "Oh man, mom, I'm so sorry that happened. Can I make you a cup of tea?"

I'm going to go back and re-read the first post, but what was Grandma doing in the little one's face in the first place? Were they in conflict?

ETA: I'm reading here: "WIth the incident in question, I did not see it. I don't know exactly what led up to spitting--I think it had something to do with climbing up to attempt to operate the DVD player herself. (A no-no in our house, DD has broken the thing about 3 times, 2 fixable by us.)"

I'd childproof. No way would I be able to tolerate my mom interacting in a physical way with my child to stop her and no way would I be able to tolerate 3 year olds interacting with electronics in a way that she could break them. Not good for her; not good for grandmas and really not good for me.

Childproof; childproof; childproof. Then let 'em roam.

I found the Montessori books really helpful in thinking through that early learning environment.

At 3, my experience was that preventing the frustration in the first place avoided nearly all the troubles.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Can someone explain to me how using a form of withdrawl (love, physical, etc) as punishment for bad behavior, helps our children to be anything other than compliant to our demands (ie. child chooses not to spit to avoid a punishment like being sent to the corner), as opposed to teaching them a different way to deal with their emotions?

The natural consequence of spitting at people is that people will dislike and avoid you. I'm not willing to let my children experience that consequence, so I intervene with a logical consequence that closely approximates the natural one. If you cannot behave in an appropriate manner around other people, you lose the opportunity to be around them. Yes, you *also* have to teach them a different way to deal with their emotions, but sometimes the teaching alone isn't enough at that moment and you have to actually physically prevent the action from reoccuring. If a child is throwing a toy, you can prevent that by removing the toy. If they are hitting or spitting, the only way to prevent it is to remove them from the person they are attacking (or have that person leave).

It's not about punishment or making them suffer- it's about giving them the time and space to attempt to reestablish control of their own bodies.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
In what you describe, I think I'd likely say something like, "Oh man, mom, I'm so sorry that happened. Can I make you a cup of tea?"

Love, love, love this. Showing compassion for the person spat upon teaches the child a lot more than punishing them for the behavior. In my opinion, anyway.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Can someone explain to me how using a form of withdrawl (love, physical, etc) as punishment for bad behavior, helps our children to be anything other than compliant to our demands (ie. child chooses not to spit to avoid a punishment like being sent to the corner), as opposed to teaching them a different way to deal with their emotions
I love ds unconditionally, but I do not love and accept all of his behavior unconditionally. There is a difference, and learning this distinction is a key part of healthy relationships as we grow up. I think stopping a behavior because it offends people, and makes them not want to be near you, is a good reason to stop this kind of behavior (spitting in a person's face). In my experience, ds did not feel unloved, he felt like I was being real with him. I agree, we need to be teaching--and it may be semantics or just perception as to which part of a response is teaching vs. punitive.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
The natural consequence of spitting at people is that people will dislike and avoid you. I'm not willing to let my children experience that consequence, so I intervene with a logical consequence that closely approximates the natural one. If you cannot behave in an appropriate manner around other people, you lose the opportunity to be around them. Yes, you *also* have to teach them a different way to deal with their emotions, but sometimes the teaching alone isn't enough at that moment and you have to actually physically prevent the action from reoccuring. If a child is throwing a toy, you can prevent that by removing the toy. If they are hitting or spitting, the only way to prevent it is to remove them from the person they are attacking (or have that person leave).

It's not about punishment or making them suffer- it's about giving them the time and space to attempt to reestablish control of their own bodies.

But we as parents (or leaders), we should be about teaching. Not how the world would react as a natural consequence if they were to do this to a stranger. This might be completely appropriate for an older child, but in my opinion, such punishments should never be put upon a young child, who is still learning about "the ways of life".

If your child were to hit you, would you hit them back? Probably not, but this is exactly what a natural consequence would be if they were to get into a fight at school.

I understand by removal of the toy (in your explanation), but how does that relate in ANY way, to removing them from the room in an event of physically or emotionally expressed anger (spitting, kicking, biting, whatever)? One is about learning self control, and the other is about learning an appropriate way to deal with emotions.

I doubt that you would remove your child from the situation if they were fighting over a toy. You would probably take the toy away and help them (maybe by means of playing a different game) how to play nicely together. So why would you do it when they display anger or frustration?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
It's not about punishment or making them suffer- it's about giving them the time and space to attempt to reestablish control of their own bodies.

Unless she was continually spitting, and it doesn't sound like that, she had reestablished control over her body when she stopped spitting. She didn't have to be taken away for that. I think it's just punishing but trying to sound nicer about it.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Unless she was continually spitting, and it doesn't sound like that, she had reestablished control over her body when she stopped spitting. She didn't have to be taken away for that. I think it's just punishing but trying to sound nicer about it.

I agree. I've said to older kids "Please don't do that to me. I don't like the way it makes me feel", and they understand. Continue the behavior, and I probably wouldn't want to be around them. Toddlers don't understand this (they will learn this when they're older). It seems rather unfair to me to punish them for that.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Unless she was continually spitting, and it doesn't sound like that, she had reestablished control over her body when she stopped spitting. She didn't have to be taken away for that. I think it's just punishing but trying to sound nicer about it.

I'm speaking largely from my own experience with my son, who would continue spitting when he was upset about something unless physically removed from the situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I understand by removal of the toy (in your explanation), but how does that relate in ANY way, to removing them from the room in an event of physically or emotionally expressed anger (spitting, kicking, biting, whatever)? One is about learning self control, and the other is about learning an appropriate way to deal with emotions.

Because it prevents the action from happening again. I mean, if I had a magic wand that would make his salvia dry up and disappear, I might use that instead







, but since I don't I have to take his mouth, spit included, and the rest of his body away from the target.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I doubt that you would remove your child from the situation if they were fighting over a toy. You would probably take the toy away and help them (maybe by means of playing a different game) how to play nicely together. So why would you do it when they display anger or frustration?

In a toy situation, I could prevent the problem by taking away the toy and help them by getting down there, being involved, and modeling appropriate play.

In the spitting situation, I can prevent the problem only by removing the entire child, and help them by empathizing, offering different ways of expressing emotion, etc.

And if he continues to spit at me while I'm doing that, I will remove myself from him; I don't want to model that allowing yourself to be assaulted is appropriate. I could hold him in my lap facing away from me, but that sort of restraint only escalates the situation for us.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I can understand moving a child away if the child is actively continually spitting on people to protect them. I wouldn't allow a child who was actively spitting to keep spitting on me or anyone else either. But that isn't what it sounds like was happening in the OP. It sounds like the child spat on grandma one time after she moved her away from a VCR.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Sorry for hijacking this thread... There's no need to reply to this. I'm just throwing this out as a different way this situation could have been handled.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
If we didn't remove my son from the situation (i.e. "time out"), it would play it out like this:

Me: (does something he doesn't like: takes away a toy he hit his brother with, told him it's bedtime, whatever)
DS: "PFFFFFFFTTTT!!!!"
Me: You may not spit.
DS: "PFFFFFFFT!!!"
Me: I can see that you're very angry. You can say "I am very angry!"
DS: "PFFFT! PFFFFT PFFFFFFT!!!!!!"

Instead of getting mad and telling them what to say (or what they should say), what would have happened if you got down to their level and said "I can see that you're angry. Are you angry because you don't want to go to bed? Is there something we can do together to help you get ready? It's very late and I can see that you're tired. Would you like for me to read you a story before bed?" Try to relate to your child, and understand where he might be coming from. It might not work the first time and if he were to not listen and spit at me again, I would say "Okay (wipe your face.) I can see that you're still angry. That's okay. Hey, let's go pick some jammies! Would you like to wear the green ones, or the blue ones?" Or maybe ask if he wants to bring something specific into bed with him.

It's soon learned that spitting gets no reaction (a negative reaction is still a reaction), and that you want to HELP him, and not punish him. In 16 years of nannying, and now raising my own child, I've never dealt with a kid that this didn't work with - quickly. Children quickly learn to give me respect, because it's what I give them from the second I walk through the door.

It's different of course when you're dealing with a child who spits at your mother (or their grandmother), but I would still rather take it as a teaching opportunity than using it as an excuse for punishment.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
In a toy situation, I could prevent the problem by taking away the toy and help them by getting down there, being involved, and modeling appropriate play.

In the spitting situation, I can prevent the problem only by removing the entire child, and help them by empathizing, offering different ways of expressing emotion, etc.

Are you saying that we can role model for appropriate play, but not for how to handle emotion? Just a thought, but do you often display unstable (frustrated or angry, etc) emotions and find that it's difficult for you to regain control? Kids do and WILL pick up on this, even if you think you're being subtle about it. How can we expect them to feel safe and secure in knowing that we're there to help them through their own emotions (which are often quite scary for young children), if we ourselves are unable to control our own?

I completely agree on teaching (sometimes by offering) different ways of handling emotion, but there is most certainly more than one way to deal with this specific problem than by removal of situation.

Just my opinion though!


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

I think the reason I have such a big problem with this is because it teaches the child how his actions affect himself, rather than how it would make the other person feel.

"I'd better play nice, or Suzie won't want to play with me."
"When I play nicely with Suzie, it makes her feel really good."

While yes, spitting at people will probably make them dislike you, NOT spitting at them (and being nice to them) will likely have the opposite effect. I just feel that it's better to teach them how to make friends, than teach what makes people go away. And I have seen this before, with a couple of kids. They were punished when they were little for being physical towards their siblings (hitting, mostly), and when they got older they would be mean to the kids they didn't like at school.

Anyway... that is all. I was just thinking about this and wanted to mention it.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Just a thought, but do you often display unstable (frustrated or angry, etc) emotions and find that it's difficult for you to regain control? Kids do and WILL pick up on this, even if you think you're being subtle about it.

I don't think anger and frustration are synonymous with unstable. They are both valid emotions, like happiness or sadness. I don't think it helps their understanding of how their actions affect others (the mom, the grandma) in a situation if we act like automatons, and give them the impression that they can engage in provoking behaviors and always get a measured "Cindy, we don't spit. You have hurt Grandma's feelings." as the only acceptable response.

I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating being out of control with their kids--far from it. Spitting, hitting, kicking, hurting people--are just not acceptable in our home and those behaviors are going to elicit a stronger response than not listening or not putting your clothes in the hamper.


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## Ell-Bell (Nov 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
If we didn't remove my son from the situation (i.e. "time out"), it would play it out like this:

Me: (does something he doesn't like: takes away a toy he hit his brother with, told him it's bedtime, whatever)
DS: "PFFFFFFFTTTT!!!!"
Me: You may not spit.
DS: "PFFFFFFFT!!!"
Me: I can see that you're very angry. You can say "I am very angry!"
DS: "PFFFT! PFFFFT PFFFFFFT!!!!!!"

He needs to be removed from the situation so that I (and any one else he's targeting) do not continue to be spat on. At the point where he doesn't have the control over himself (understandable, he's three!) to refrain from spitting on or hitting people, it's my job to prevent him from doing so.









I think removing a child from the situation so that the spitting (or hitting, or sand throwing, or whatever) is TOTALLY different than time out. Time out is withdrawing your love and attention for a certain amount of time while they are supposed to be thinking about what they did, but in reality they are probably just being pissed, or sad, or lonely, or guilty. I don't do time outs, but I will help my son (almost 4 now) stop hurting someone else by physically removing him from the situation. I do this while empathizing with him. "It looks like you are really frustrated/angry/etc. I can't let you hurt your friends/grandma/dog so we are going to move over here. I'm sorry that [whatever caused behavior]. That was frustrating." I do this while holding and cuddling him. Usually just a little empathy really helps him calm down and then express what's on his mind. Then maybe a deep breath, and we move on. If he'll be going back into the same environment that caused his anger (ie- a sandbox) I would probably give him a reminder that throwing sand hurts people, and I know he doesn't want to hurt anyone.

There are also times when the behavior wasn't "provoked" but just something that the kid thought would be fun or funny, like throwing sand or spitting. They might be doing it to get a reaction, etc. In this case in stead of empathising with their frustration, I would empathize with their curiousity, or the temptation by saying something like, "It's really tempting to throw sand because it feels so cool in your hands, but sand hurts and you don't want to hurt anyone" or "You really feel like you need to spit right now. Spitting on other people is dirty and makes them upset. Let's go outside (or in the bathroom) where you can spit all you want."

I admit, in the heat of the moment, if I were the one being spit on, I would possibly initially react with, "Maximus! Don't spit at me!" then I would take a breath and get back into parenting the way I would like to parent- unconditionally, and with empathy and creativity.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

We've gotten a little away from the situation in the OP, but I'd like to continue this line of thought.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Instead of getting mad and telling them what to say (or what they should say), what would have happened if you got down to their level and said "I can see that you're angry. Are you angry because you don't want to go to bed? Is there something we can do together to help you get ready?... _(snip)_ ...Okay (wipe your face.) I can see that you're still angry. That's okay. Hey, let's go pick some jammies! Would you like to wear the green ones, or the blue ones?" Or maybe ask if he wants to bring something specific into bed with him.

In our case, he wouldn't be able to understand the words because the he'd be spitting loudly while I tried to talk.







All those ideas and techniques are fabulous, and I've done similar things in other situations, but when someone is unwilling to listen you can't force them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
It's soon learned that spitting gets no reaction (a negative reaction is still a reaction), and that you want to HELP him, and not punish him.

I can see how this would work, but at the same time, I'm unwilling to indicate that the appropriate response to being spat on is to calmly ignore it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Are you saying that we can role model for appropriate play, but not for how to handle emotion?

Oh, of course we can model appropriate handling of emotion. But that's the second part of the equation for me- the first part is eliminating the opportunity to continue the problematic behavior. Particularly if other people (relatives, friends, younger brother) are involved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Just a thought, but do you often display unstable (frustrated or angry, etc) emotions and find that it's difficult for you to regain control? Kids do and WILL pick up on this, even if you think you're being subtle about it. How can we expect them to feel safe and secure in knowing that we're there to help them through their own emotions (which are often quite scary for young children), if we ourselves are unable to control our own?

I do, actually, and I'm certain that some of my son's behavior is related to my own. He's also very very like me in temperament as well, and I suspect that plays a large role also. His younger brother (and their dad!) is nothing at all like us in this regard. But I also think it's incredibly valuable for me to model how to appropriately deal with anger and frustration, by using words or by taking space, as opposed to, say, spitting on someone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I think the reason I have such a big problem with this is because it teaches the child how his actions affect himself, rather than how it would make the other person feel.

And I can see the value of saying "so-and-so was really sad that you spit on her"- when the child is in a space where they can actually hear and understand that information. If they're angry enough that they're spitting and hitting, it's almost impossible to find and nurture that grain of empathy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I don't think it helps their understanding of how their actions affect others (the mom, the grandma) in a situation if we act like automatons, and give them the impression that they can engage in provoking behaviors and always get a measured "Cindy, we don't spit. You have hurt Grandma's feelings." as the only acceptable response.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ell-Bell* 
I don't do time outs, but I will help my son (almost 4 now) stop hurting someone else by physically removing him from the situation. I do this while empathizing with him. "It looks like you are really frustrated/angry/etc. I can't let you hurt your friends/grandma/dog so we are going to move over here. I'm sorry that [whatever caused behavior]. That was frustrating." I do this while holding and cuddling him. Usually just a little empathy really helps him calm down and then express what's on his mind.

That's how we (ideally) would handle what we call a "time out" here. It's definitely not a 'go to your room for 3 minutes and think about what you've done!' sort of thing. However- when my son is upset- holding and cuddling and empathizing don't do anything other than make him *more* upset. He needs to rage on his own for a minute before being able to accept emotional support from anyone else.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, prothyraia! It sounds like what you do might be called a "time-in", rather than a "time-out" (if you're unfamiliar with this term, look it up).

As for the holding (unless I'm misunderstanding), holding a child (as is restraining him until he calms down) creates submission, which I think we agree that none of here want from our children. And it makes perfect sense why he would get even more upset. Some kids need to be held and cuddled, others don't want you to even touch them. The best thing you can do to help them is to set them down, and remain as calm as possible (while not leaving them). Even if that means doing nothing but staying with them and being quiet until they were ready to reconnect.

I still STRONGLY disagree with the use of time-outs for young children, but in a more serious case (like as in this thread), a time-in could be a good thing.









Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Can someone explain to me how using a form of withdrawl (love, physical, etc) as punishment for bad behavior, helps our children to be anything other than compliant to our demands (ie. child chooses not to spit to avoid a punishment like being sent to the corner), as opposed to teaching them a different way to deal with their emotions?

This is a gentle discipline forum, and I see nothing gentle about this method whatsoever.

Because when you break the rules and expectations of society people react negatively, which conditions members of society to behave within a certain social standard.

And, FWIW, there's nothing DISCIPLINE related about not teaching exactly that to the child.

Gentle Discipline means teaching without violence (to oversimplify). To discipline is to make a disciple of, to teach and instruct.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
The natural consequence of spitting at people is that people will dislike and avoid you. I'm not willing to let my children experience that consequence, so I intervene with a logical consequence that closely approximates the natural one. If you cannot behave in an appropriate manner around other people, you lose the opportunity to be around them. Yes, you *also* have to teach them a different way to deal with their emotions, but sometimes the teaching alone isn't enough at that moment and you have to actually physically prevent the action from reoccuring. If a child is throwing a toy, you can prevent that by removing the toy. If they are hitting or spitting, the only way to prevent it is to remove them from the person they are attacking (or have that person leave).

It's not about punishment or making them suffer- it's about giving them the time and space to attempt to reestablish control of their own bodies.

The *only* thing I slightly disagree with here is that I would, in the OP's situation, encourage the person being spat on to immediately say to the child "spitting is yucky, I don't like it!" and walk away from the child. My child would be crushed, I'm sure, but that is a fast lesson in how people feel when treated so disrespectfully and I am very supportive of natural consequences. If a child spat on me (mine or otherwise) I would say exactly the same thing. There's nothing non-gentle about setting and enforcing boundaries.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I love ds unconditionally, but I do not love and accept all of his behavior unconditionally. There is a difference, and learning this distinction is a key part of healthy relationships as we grow up. I think stopping a behavior because it offends people, and makes them not want to be near you, is a good reason to stop this kind of behavior (spitting in a person's face). In my experience, ds did not feel unloved, he felt like I was being real with him. I agree, we need to be teaching--and it may be semantics or just perception as to which part of a response is teaching vs. punitive.

Well said, I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
But we as parents (or leaders), we should be about teaching. *Not how the world would react as a natural consequence if they were to do this to a stranger.* This might be completely appropriate for an older child, but in my opinion, such punishments should never be put upon a young child, who is still learning about "the ways of life".

*If your child were to hit you, would you hit them back?* Probably not, but this is exactly what a natural consequence would be if they were to get into a fight at school.

My bolds. What is wrong with teaching a 3yo how the rest of society will react (her gma included) when/if she spits on them? I don't understand how gentle discipline in ANY way correlates to protecting them from the results of their behaviors, positive or negative.

And no one is suggesting the child be spat on. That wouldn't be gentle, nor would it teach anything except repeating the child's behavior is appropriate.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Gentle Discipline means teaching without violence (to oversimplify). To discipline is to make a disciple of, to teach and instruct.

Emotional, or physical?


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I find I don't like isolation/withdrawal either.

One thing that seems to work is to focus on the victim first. I think it takes a lot of wind out of their sails when you come rushing across the room, making noises and saying, "Oh, gosh mom! Are you okay? Can I get anything for you?" And give her a big hug and don't even acknowledge the perpetrator for a solid moment.

Then what I would do is turn to the child and say something clear and short, such as, "That was very disrespectful and hurtful to your grandma. We can talk about our anger and we can feel angry, but we do not spit in faces."

This works when little kids hit/bite each other, too.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Emotional, or physical?

It's not emotionally violent to say what I suggested above. To say "you bad naughty child, how dare you! Go away!" would be hurtful and wrong. There's a HUGE difference.

It bothers me that the focus seems to be a higher concern for the person who committed the offense, than the person who was on the receiving end. Especially when the offender is my own child, it's even more so my responsibility to teach them immediately that treating others so disrespectfully is completely and utterly unacceptable. And it would be disrespectful to the offended person to do otherwise as well.

ETA: It is my job to prepare my child to succeed in the 'real world' on their own, beginning in small steps even as a young child. To presume and behave as if my child is too fragile to experience the consequences and reactions from their own behavior (positive or negative) is an inappropriate parenting perspective, IMHO.


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## chimomma (Aug 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I think that the most healing thing for me was realizing that I didn't have to do anything in those sorts of situations.

I think the hardest thing about the punishment mindset is the nearly compulsive feeling that I *must* do something to react.

In what you describe, I think I'd likely say something like, "Oh man, mom, I'm so sorry that happened. Can I make you a cup of tea?"


I can understand taking preventative measures. And in some cases I do think we just "do something" or punish just because we feel pressure to, especially from other people (like people who just got spit on). But in this situation I think there would definitely need to be a boundary set. Could you please explain to me the advantage of "not doing anything." and is there any situation where you personally would feel the need to "do something?"


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

We do time outs but dd1 controls how long she is in time out. When she is calm and ready to talk about and apologize she may rejoin the family. She is almost 3 and very verbal. She hasn't spit at us yet but she occasionally hits me or dd2. I often ask her if she would like it if I did that to her. She usually says no and then I explain that I feel the same way so she should not hit me.

I come from a family that spanked and it is my relfex reaction after the 10th time of telling someone to stop. But i fight it. I am not perfect, there have been times when its a really bad day, I am sleep deprived or sick and dd1 is just pushing and pushing and I have hit splapped her hand or something. I apoogize afterwards and we talk about it. I don't feel like I was abused for the occasioanl spanking but I also know that it is not the best way or the most effective and respectful way to teach children. How can I tell her not to hit if I hit, ykwim?


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Hmm, I guess i feel isolation is warranted because spitting is a really big deal to me. It's not like chucking a toy or even hitting (in as much as DD CAN hit, at nearly 4). If she spit on the bus driver she would face a criminal charge in this city (there was an 8 year old permanently banned from all city transport and sent to the Children's Panel last month for spitting, granted on more than one occasion, at his school bus driver - the drivers carry dna swab kits for that in this city and it is regarded and treated as assault).

If DD ever spit on me my priority would be to communicate VERY memorably that it is in. no. way. acceptable, no matter what she is feeling, no matter what i have asked of her. It is the sort of aggressive behaviour i would personally save to escape from an attacker who had already gotten hold of me. Not someone who wanted me to go to bed.

Punishment versus consequent is semantics to me - if DD spit in her best friends face her best friend would avoid her like the plague, to punish her for spitting in their face. THAT punishment from the friend, one of ostracising, would be a natural consequence, but also a change of behaviour or circumstance to attempt to modify DD's feelings or behaviour towards that friend - a punishment. I am not against showing her the results of her actions, i just simultaneously try to model the sort of behaviour i think is acceptable. It is acceptable to me to remove one's self from someone who spat in my face, but not to hit them. So yes, i will get away from her, but not hit her.

I find the repeated posts about talking, understanding and relating to one's child somewhat ridiculous. I've been raising her nearly 4 years, full time. We do understand one another! We talk all the time and relate well enough that she's never actually spat in anyone's face. I actually know parents who smack who have incredibly close relationships with their kids, with kids who feel they can rely on their parents and turn to them, it's not what i want to do because i think it doesn't work, but i also don't believe that one cannot simultaneously use punishment as a parenting tool (or consequences if you'd prefer to call it that) and be a good, loving parent. The bigger picture is so important in this context. I would absolutely react as i've detailed to spitting. There is probably nothing else which would bring this response - perhaps the second violent act against a much smaller defenceless child (again, she's never done this) would warrant this. For extreme behaviour she gets an extreme reaction - from me, from the general world. The difference is that after *I* have walked off disgusted, washed my face, and avoided her until i've calmed down, i'm her Mama still, we're going to talk about it, make up, and in a few minutes she gets a new clean slate with me. I love her, she knows i love her. She is very secure in this, my demonstrating that her ACTIONS are not loveable doesn't translate into ME not loving HER. She doesn't get that with the rest of the world, the consequences for acting in this sort of way towards other people are potentially far more long-lasting. For me it's my JOB to teach her what she should expect if she acts in a given way - including being told how wonderful and helpful she is when she is - not my job to rationalise her every action with the feeling behind it. Understanding why she spat does not, in almost any situation, mitigate what she has done. She is a very verbal child, and she uses it well to test boundaries. If i demonstrated no disgust but began talking to her about how she mustn't spit but is she angry she would invent descriptions for 10 different kinds of spitting and try them all out to see if i really meant it. I have to parent the kid in front of me, she benefits from a dialogue on so many grey areas, but for black and white issues like this she does far better with very clear boundaries.

Of COURSE, with all the hundreds of kinds of person in the world, and all of us parenting little individuals YMMV.

Yes, i'm really strict/harsh/mean by some standards. But i have a really good thing going with my kid here, i feel strongly i'm on the right track *for us*. I am fully prepared for the new baby to arrive in June requiring a completely different approach, which is why this place is so great, because i am pretty much guaranteed that whatever kind of kid i get next one of you wise mama's will had encountered and overcome whatever problems i have.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Two things. First, punishing is not the only way to set a boundary. Simply saying, "Spitting is not acceptable" sets a boundary.

Second, as to this:

Quote:

Hmm, I guess i feel isolation is warranted because spitting is a really big deal to me.
I really don't think punishment teaches what I am trying to teach. I don't think it teaches that in the case of small things or big things. What specifically do you think isolation teaches in this case? I think it just teaches, "When my mom gets really mad, she puts me in my room." And then makes the child more upset (either angry or sad) which makes teaching more difficult afterward. Plus it separates any teachable action from the event, and that time separation doesn't help, either. And it could increase the anger at grandma. "If grandma hadn't stopped me from playing with the VCR, I wouldn't have gotten put in my room." Which makes it harder to teach empathy for the grandma, which is the lesson I would be trying to teach.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

mamazee--I think you make a strong point where you distinguish between constant/out of control spitting and a one time spit--in terms of separation being part of a response. My reaction would differ with those two situations as well.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Two things. First, punishing is not the only way to set a boundary. Simply saying, "Spitting is not acceptable" sets a boundary.

Second, as to this:

I really don't think punishment teaches what I am trying to teach. I don't think it teaches that in the case of small things or big things. What specifically do you think isolation teaches in this case? I think it just teaches, "When my mom gets really mad, she puts me in my room." And then makes the child more upset (either angry or sad) which makes teaching more difficult afterward. Plus it separates any teachable action from the event, and that time separation doesn't help, either. And it could increase the anger at grandma. "If grandma hadn't stopped me from playing with the VCR, I wouldn't have gotten put in my room." Which makes it harder to teach empathy for the grandma, which is the lesson I would be trying to teach.

Actually, i never put DD in her room and i didn't say i would - i said i would remove MYSELF from her and make it clear i didn't want to talk about it or be around her until i'd been able to wash myself and calm down. That for us doesn't extend to shutting people in rooms, only to being physically or emotionally removed (as far as is safe and practical) while we have chance to calm down. When "time out" IS used by DD she generally puts herself in it in just this way to do just this thing. I feel this is a perfectly reasonable reaction given she just (in this hypothetical) spat in my face.

If i say "spitting is not acceptable" DD would say "why?" and the very second i open that dialogue, while she is still emotionally in the place where she spat on me, she is going to argue the toss and force a power struggle (what can i say, she's an Aries, confrontation is her hobby







) and the lesson is forgotten in the tussle of getting one over, verbally, and "winning" the conversation - her father is VERY like this, he sees every conversation as something to be "won" or "lost". I know, because i have watched her father struggle with her in exactly this way that 5 minutes later she has forgotten about the thing that sparked the issue (spitting) and is focussed entirely on "winning". Thus i am not willing to open discussion on it with her in the moment. There is no discussion. She deals better with actions in these instances, i know from experience with her that making a statement is just chatter to her, whereas if she can witness with her own eyes how much it has affected me, it has a far more profound impact. So i don't hide it from her when she's done something i consider thoroughly terrible.

I'm positive (i have met them) there are kids in the world who need to know that they shouldn't spit in someone's face, and that someone saying to them "that's not acceptable" is going to be a valuable step on the path of that bit of knowledge. I know some kids need to learn about having compassion for someone else and not treating them badly through discussions. But i also know that's not the kid i have here. THIS kid is at the stage of saying "well i don't love you anymore" because it DOES hurt (i respond "well i will always love you") and she WANTS it to hurt because she is experimenting with emotional boundaries and how she can affect them in other people. She is the daughter and grand daughter of socially astute women, who are easily skilled enough to manipulate if they need to (i don't mean in a negative way - an example of startlingly effective social manipulation i witnessed when i was 14 and my mother broke up a knife fight between a drug dealer and a user who owed him money by taking the knife from the dealer's hand and putting a cup of tea in its place) and she is one of us in that regard. She's not subtle or sensitive yet, but she is primarily interested in twisting any conversation to make it work to her own advantage. 5 minutes in discussion and she could have her father agreeing that spitting was the right thing to do. Discussion in the moment does my DD no favours. In the moment she needs to see baldly what effect what she has done is having. Discussion is for later. Discussion is relentless in this house, she talks from dawn till dusk, she asks me thousands of questions a day, we talk about anything and everything.

Reading this back i make her sound devious, but she isn't, she's just really smart and really astute and verbally she's miles ahead of her emotional capabilities. I must stress again, she has NEVER spit in my face, and she hasn't even raised a hand to hit me in about 8 months, and in the 6 months before THAT she didn't actually hit, she'd just raise her hand and i'd remind her to count, breathe, and she'd get a hold on it again.

As an aside the attitude that "if grandma hadn't moved me away from the dvd i wouldn't be in my room" is not one i would support. I am very quick to accept blame, clarify my fault and explain how i will rectify and DD is already picking this up. In this house we accept when OUR actions have caused a problem and we apologise and move forwards with reparation. When she HAS done something, on the odd occasion she's begun with "if you hadn't!" or "it's YOUR fault" i ask her what i could have done differently, and then what she could have done differently, and she is already capable of saying "you were taking a long time to get my drink, but i would have it by now if i hadn't thrown the cup". We have a mini cheer when we have hit on what either of us can do differently each time to avoid the same thing happening, and it's working for us, she seems to learn really fast and feel genuine satisfaction at her growing ability to solve and avoid problems.

I guess without spending time together it might be hard to see how our approach can work, but it definitely does work for the kid i have here (like i said, i'm prepared for it to be useless with the next one!







), just as i'm sure your approach works really well for your kids. I guess the longer i parent and the more kids and families i meet the more i realise how much everything can vary.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chimomma* 
I can understand taking preventative measures. And in some cases I do think we just "do something" or punish just because we feel pressure to, especially from other people (like people who just got spit on). But in this situation I think there would definitely need to be a boundary set. Could you please explain to me the advantage of "not doing anything." and is there any situation where you personally would feel the need to "do something?"

I'm saying breaking the habit of feeling compelled to do something is valuable. Taking away the need to react, replacing it with looking for ways to avoid and resolve the conflict.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

GoBecGo said:


> If i say "spitting is not acceptable" DD would say "why?" and the very second i open that dialogue, while she is still emotionally in the place where she spat on me, she is going to argue the toss and force a power struggle (what can i say, she's an Aries, confrontation is her hobby
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

To be honest, since it's never happened to me, all of this is theoretical anyway. But i probably WOULD say that it wasn't acceptable, but as well as removing myself, rather than instead.

How do you keep a child who's like that focussed on the issue of what they have done if you discuss it in the moment? It's not so much that i can't stop her talking me out of my reaction, more that to her it seems that if we can talk about it right away then it didn't really matter (i don't know why, because 90% of the deviations from ideal (i don't want to say bad behaviour because really it's annoying when she rips wallpaper off the hall walls, but it's not criminal activity!) we DO talk about right away, so it's not like i'm silently enraged and distant over every little thing (probably only a few things ever in fact). SHE reacts by taking herself off alone if she's totally enraged, perhaps she interprets less than this to mean that it wasn't so bad afterall?

Due to something that happened to me a long time ago someone spitting in my face is a massive trigger for me. I'm one of those people, possibly due to being an abuse survivor, who has horrifically violent internal reactions to certain emotions - one of the main reasons i don't smack is that i don't believe that's a road it would be safe for me personally to even put one foot on - so i do consider my reactions. I just know if something like that happens (i can't think of anything she's actually done which made me enraged to this point...coming up blank, but imagining the spitting scenario i can certainly imagine it would be such an occasion) and i allow immediate discussion within 2 minutes she's entirely absorbed in arguing, and doesn't give a toss about what happened, how the wronged person felt, or what she could do to help.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
Hey, not me. I said we talk to my DD, 4 years old, about her rude behavior when she's calmer. Sometimes I suggest she go to her room until she feels like being with people. If she actually spit in my face I'd say "oooo, gross. That was really rude." and I'd get out of spitting range. I might ask her what she was angry about. My DD's rude behavior is usually yelling, being bossy or hitting. I feel preschoolers are very much still learning how to be people so I don't take rudeness personal. Emotional control and manners just aren't completely in place. We're teaching our DD how to behave by modeling so being rude to her when she's rude doesn't make sense. We have reacted loudly when hurt, but it's more a loud "owie!!" followed by a "be more careful/gentle". We don't do timeouts or punitive.

Someone mentioned they want "my kids do what I ask because .....". Well we want our DD to do things because it's a good idea, because the behavior fits the kind of person she wants to be, because she likes being helpful ....... not to please us.

THERE my brain was NOT operating late that night. THAT is what I was going for, I want them to WANT to do things because it's the right thing to do, because they know it's right, not because they fear me and are trying to avoid my wrath.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The problem is that you're looking at this from an adult perspective rather than a 3-year-old's perspective. "No action justifies a response like that." Well, some actions justify a strong reaction. Not spitting, which we understand as adults, but 3-year-olds don't usually have a lot of actions at their disposal and are still learning which reactions are OK and which are off limits. If your 3-year-old feels heard, that you understand why he got so angry, he might feel less need to act out. He's developing a sense of justice and being heard will help him feel less like he needs to get back. As will giving him other actions to take or words to use when he feels he's been wronged and has to respond.

The reason I wouldn't punish is because I don't believe punishment teaches what I want to teach. That doesn't mean "except when something is really bad" because then I would think that punishment works best and therefore has to at least be used when something is really important. I dont' think punishment teaches good behavior ever, therfore I just don't use it. The only reason I think people want to punish in this case is becasue a grandma was involved and they want to appeal to her anger and desire for revenge from having had the child spit at her.

If the problem stared becasue he didn't feel heard and felt like he was wronged, punishing him is just going to make him feel less heard and more wronged. That isn't a solution. Let him know that he's heard, that spitting is not an acceptable way to respond when he gets angry at someone, and give him alternatives. But I do think you should listen to why he was angry because the more he feels he is heard, the less he will act out to be heard.

This is where I was trying to go. I'm not going to sit with my 3 year old and try to talk all about what happened, I feel like it detracts from the point. Also, besides the justification of the behavior, why should she have to "justify" *why* she is angry? By trying to explain the situation, it's also feeding the idea (in my mind) that she has to justify this emotion.

I'd rather just deal with what is going on in the moment "WOW you must have been *really angry* to do that." than go back and try to discuss what happened to cause it.

The "problem" in this case is that she's extremely angry. Many situations will provoke that feeling for her. The *real* goal here is that she learn to deal with the emotion. And I want her to know that there's nothing at all wrong with her feeling that way. The 'issue' is how she chose to deal with it in that moment. So she needs to have me help her figure out things she can do instead.

Because she is 3 and she is in a moment of strong emotion, she probably won't be ready to sit down and figure this out until she's had a chance to calm down. This is probably best accomplished with some quiet time, in this case, possibly with me, since *i'm* not the one she's angry with.

So...more accurately, I don't want to--unless *she* initiates it--go into a whole drawn-out discussion of what led to the feeling. I just don't feel it's relevant, and it, to me, sends the message that she needs to 'justify' her feeling. Which is not the message I want to send.

(someone mentioned the 3 year old's perspective, I get how the 3 year old just wouldn't get why spitting is *so wrong* in the eyes of an adult. So she would not see it as "trying to justify her actions" the way I said I would. But I think a kid could easily begin to realize the message of "I have to justify why I feel the way I do." I don't know if a 3 year old would 'get' that yet but I don't entirely know she WOULDN'T either. And it's just not where I want to go.)


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

My responses in *BOLD*

The discussing and the processing and the giving of better tools- that all needs to happen, but you're right, it's not going to happen in the moment, and it's not okay to let the behavior continue while the child calms down.

*EXACTLY why I would want to remove DD from the situation and give her a chance to calm down. I believe allowing the undesired behavior to continue, doing nothing to change the situation, excuses and encourages the behavior. If I 'excuse' this because she is 'only 3' and doesn't understand how unacceptable it is in the eyes of an adult, then at what age do I stop excusing her? Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable and needs to be addressed no matter what, this is how they learn. (If I'd posted saying she was running and screaming in the library, most everyone here would agree she needs to be removed from the library, I think, no matter *what* age she was, whether she could be expected to know what the rules are or not, because in our society, this is not acceptable behavior in a library.)*

I don't see how it aids my DD for me to hide MY emotions in order to teach her how to handle her own. If anyone ever spits in her face i want her to know it's absolutely fine for her to get out of there, and that when someone is acting like that towards her following her urge to GET AWAY from that person, rather than stay and try to help them, is absolutely ok. I agree that she is young and not in control of her emotions, but to me it is really super important that she gets, as early as possible, that it is NEVER ok to spit in someone's face, no matter WHAT she is feeling.

*ITA!*

I believe for people who grew up being spanked that it's a process to get there. Despite lots of turmoil as a child, my mother did not believe in spanking. It wasn't part of my childhood, and so it's really easy for me to look at it completely from an outsider's perspective. My ILs did spank, and my husband struggles with the same idea of "then what do you do when..." It's been a journey for him to work on learning other ways to handle conflict.

*Thank you for this, Brandi Rhoades. This is how I feel. I've hesitated before and NOT posted stuff here out of a fear of being judged for not 'being there' yet. But how else is somebody who WANTS to learn how to be different supposed to accomplish it? I said it was 'easy' when I was a preschool teacher because the kids just did not provoke the emotion in me that seeing my OWN kids do these things does (they didn't, I was actually well known for calm, cool, collected responses lol, and there is the argument that *most* children save their 'worst' for their parents, because that is who they feel the 'safest' with)...and well, I have had *nothing* in my life to show me what to do with this level of emotion. There's anger at them, but it's more, it's frustration with myself as in "how could *I* have raised a child that would..." maybe that is anger at myself.
I think we need to have patience and space for those who are *trying* to get there.







I think I've come a long way just in even beginning to THINK about it, because I'm 99% positive nobody in my past thought twice about what they were doing.*

I have more, will be back later DS2 just got up and he will not be happy with me interacting with a screen for much longer!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It isn't about justifying. It's about listening. "Wow, you were really angry. What made you so angry?" Ifs he doesn't want to talk about it, fine, but she might want to be heard.

And not punishing doesn't mean "excusing" and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with encouraging. Encouraging would be, "Wow, great mouth muscles! That was some spitting!" Something positive done in an attempt to make it continue.

Also, stopping someone from running through the library screaming isn't the same as putting someone in a room after she spat at someone and is no longer spitting. If she were running around spitting on everyone, I'd move her to protect other people, but if she spat one time and stopped, putting her in her room isn't stopping her from spitting. The spitting is over. It's just a punishment.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Hmm, I guess i feel isolation is warranted because spitting is a really big deal to me. It's not like chucking a toy or even hitting (in as much as DD CAN hit, at nearly 4). If she spit on the bus driver she would face a criminal charge in this city (there was an 8 year old permanently banned from all city transport and sent to the Children's Panel last month for spitting, granted on more than one occasion, at his school bus driver - the drivers carry dna swab kits for that in this city and it is regarded and treated as assault).

If DD ever spit on me my priority would be to communicate VERY memorably that it is in. no. way. acceptable, no matter what she is feeling, no matter what i have asked of her. It is the sort of aggressive behaviour i would personally save to escape from an attacker who had already gotten hold of me. Not someone who wanted me to go to bed.

Punishment versus consequent is semantics to me - if DD spit in her best friends face her best friend would avoid her like the plague, to punish her for spitting in their face. THAT punishment from the friend, one of ostracising, would be a natural consequence, but also a change of behaviour or circumstance to attempt to modify DD's feelings or behaviour towards that friend - a punishment. I am not against showing her the results of her actions, i just simultaneously try to model the sort of behaviour i think is acceptable. It is acceptable to me to remove one's self from someone who spat in my face, but not to hit them. So yes, i will get away from her, but not hit her.

*I find the repeated posts about talking, understanding and relating to one's child somewhat ridiculous.* I've been raising her nearly 4 years, full time. We do understand one another! We talk all the time and relate well enough that she's never actually spat in anyone's face. I actually know parents who smack who have incredibly close relationships with their kids, with kids who feel they can rely on their parents and turn to them, it's not what i want to do because i think it doesn't work, but *i also don't believe that one cannot simultaneously use punishment as a parenting tool (or consequences if you'd prefer to call it that) and be a good, loving parent.* The bigger picture is so important in this context. I would absolutely react as i've detailed to spitting. There is probably nothing else which would bring this response - perhaps the second violent act against a much smaller defenceless child (again, she's never done this) would warrant this. For extreme behaviour she gets an extreme reaction - from me, from the general world. The difference is that after *I* have walked off disgusted, washed my face, and avoided her until i've calmed down, i'm her Mama still, we're going to talk about it, make up, and in a few minutes she gets a new clean slate with me. I love her, she knows i love her. She is very secure in this, my demonstrating that her ACTIONS are not loveable doesn't translate into ME not loving HER. She doesn't get that with the rest of the world, the consequences for acting in this sort of way towards other people are potentially far more long-lasting. For me it's my JOB to teach her what she should expect if she acts in a given way - including being told how wonderful and helpful she is when she is - not my job to rationalise her every action with the feeling behind it. Understanding why she spat does not, in almost any situation, mitigate what she has done. She is a very verbal child, and she uses it well to test boundaries. If i demonstrated no disgust but began talking to her about how she mustn't spit but is she angry she would invent descriptions for 10 different kinds of spitting and try them all out to see if i really meant it. I have to parent the kid in front of me, she benefits from a dialogue on so many grey areas, but for black and white issues like this she does far better with very clear boundaries.

Of COURSE, with all the hundreds of kinds of person in the world, and all of us parenting little individuals YMMV.

Yes, i'm really strict/harsh/mean by some standards. But i have a really good thing going with my kid here, i feel strongly i'm on the right track *for us*. I am fully prepared for the new baby to arrive in June requiring a completely different approach, which is why this place is so great, because i am pretty much guaranteed that whatever kind of kid i get next one of you wise mama's will had encountered and overcome whatever problems i have.

Amen.


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## Becken (May 28, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses, but I wanted to share a bit of family folklore with you...

When she was very young, my sister-in-law spit at her brother. Their mother had a very creative solution that ABSOLUTELY cured SIL from spitting at anyone ever again.

She had to sit at the kitchen table and spit into a glass until it was full. A small glass, but still. Spit spit spit.

She was sick of spitting by the time that was over!

I don't know if that would work with a 3 year old, but I do like the consistency of the consequences with the unacceptable behavior.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It isn't about justifying. It's about listening. "Wow, you were really angry. What made you so angry?" Ifs he doesn't want to talk about it, fine, but she might want to be heard.

And not punishing doesn't mean "excusing" and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with encouraging. Encouraging would be, "Wow, great mouth muscles! That was some spitting!" Something positive done in an attempt to make it continue.

Thank you, mamazee. I've been avoiding any further replies because I SO strongly disagree with using a "natural consequence" as punishment on a child of such a young age, but you've done such a great job at saying what I've been trying to say (in ALL your replies) that I just had to comment.

I could NOT agree with this more. I'd quote other posts from you, but I won't waste space. Just thanks.









To the others who disagree with me, I will add though that whether the consequence (in this case, for spitting) is physical (spanking) or emotional (love withdrawl), violent or abusive is not the message I was trying to imply. But I do feel (strongly) that this method of "natural consequence parenting" (on a 3 year old), is ABSOLUTELY NOT gentle. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

I don't understand the problem with natural consequences? The natural consequence of treating someone poorly is they don't want to be around you for the moment. A three year old feels the same way when a playmate hits them, spits on them, rips a toy away, whatever. I'd validate and encourage that decision from THEM to say "I don't want to play with this person who treated me badly" so what's wrong with it going the other way too?

I want my children to be comfortable setting and enforcing their own boundaries, specifically regarding what treatment they will tolerate from others. I teach this by respecting boundaries in others, and pointing out to my child that their behaviors can impact how others feel about them. To do otherwise, in my opinion, is unfair to my child and sets them up with unrealistic expectations about how their world, and eventually the real world, works.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Ok so I'm wondering...what are the natural consequences?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Not playing with someone is not the same as puttign someone in their room.

And the best way to teach children to expect to be treated well is simply to treat them well.

I think the natural consequence of spitting on someone would be for that person to say, "Ewwwww! You spat on me!" and run off and wash his/her face. Whatever would actually naturally happen without someone trying to think of what should happen. And I think most people would feel bad for causing that reaction.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Not playing with someone is not the same as puttign someone in their room.

And the best way to teach children to expect to be treated well is simply to treat them well.

I think the natural consequence of spitting on someone would be for that person to say, "Ewwwww! You spat on me!" and run off and wash his/her face. Whatever would actually naturally happen without someone trying to think of what should happen. And I think most people would feel bad for causing that reaction.

Ok but thinking of the toddlers I have known...wouldn't that have the risk of encouraging spitting? I've found a bit of "eww" or "oww!" to entice giggling and repeats.

I don't know...maybe in this situation w/ the 3yo particularly doing it out of anger...it wouldn't cause this?


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I don't understand the problem with natural consequences? The natural consequence of treating someone poorly is they don't want to be around you for the moment. A three year old feels the same way when a playmate hits them, spits on them, rips a toy away, whatever. I'd validate and encourage that decision from THEM to say "I don't want to play with this person who treated me badly" so what's wrong with it going the other way too?

IMO. Teaching a child to walk away when someone spits on them (or takes their toy or whatever), is not the same as punishing that child for doing that same behavior to the other child. A natural consequence (for most kids I've dealt with) is to rip the toy back from the kid who tried to take it from them, or punch or hit when another child does something to them (like spit). Or they might just scream that Jimmy did something they didn't like, and run off to their mother for help. But is this not why we're here? To help?

What I don't understand is how someone can justify punishing a young child for a behavior they don't understand, rather than teaching that the said behavior was not appropriate for the situation. I don't believe removal from situation, or time out, teaches anything other than preventing a behavior to avoid a punishment or consequence, and it could cause a resentment towards the parent (at least at the time - "I hate my mom! She's so mean for getting mad like that! She should be mad at Grandma! I really hate her for getting me in trouble.", etc). It certainly doesn't teach the child to act towards the feelings of the other person. On top of that, I don't believe it's fair to the child, when this type of punishment will often leave the child feeling upset and confused, and very likely more angry than they were to begin with. The method works. I just don't agree with it.

I'm truly and honestly trying to understand this, but some of you are making a good argument as to why I dislike it so much in the first place, and I'm feeling nothing but an even stronger dislike to this technique of "gentle parenting". I choose not to use the word "discipline" because I don't believe that discipline should = punishment.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Maybe I'm not being clear or something? I didn't suggest punishing the child? I said if the child is allowed to not be around someone that treats them badly (I would hope that's encouraged, at least), what is wrong with the gma in this situation saying "I don't want to play w/you, you spit on me" and then leaving the immediate area of the child? It's a natural reaction to not want to be around someone who acts like that and the child then learns not to treat people accordingly.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I think people just have different ideas about what 'natural consequences' means. Heck, I've heard spanking mamas calling spanking a natural consequence.









I actually like your scenario. Although still, with a 3yo, I think it still might be more beneficial to focus on identifying the child's emotions and working through the response. Grandma saying that seems logical, but will the 3yo 1) understand why Grandma is leaving him and 2) understand what to do differently in the future? Three year olds still need lots of external regulation as their cortex is still developing, you know? And emotions are hard for them to work through, on top of figuring out social boundaries and acceptable practices.

In the case of spitting out of anger, it really pronounces to me that this child cannot verbalize, or is not confident verbalizing. Spitting gets the message that she can't say across to the person. So _if_ I was the parent, I would not want her to be confused about why everyone is disapproving. At what? Her? Her emotions? Her opinion? Or her behavior? And I would want her to know what she could do in the future so she learns from it.

I guess, after typing this out, that now I feel natural consequences don't really fit here. A natural consequence seems to work best when the child has the ability to choose behavior and chooses a poor behavior. Like a teen who chooses to ignore a reasonable curfew.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I love ds unconditionally, but I do not love and accept all of his behavior unconditionally. There is a difference, and learning this distinction is a key part of healthy relationships as we grow up. I think stopping a behavior because it offends people, and makes them not want to be near you, is a good reason to stop this kind of behavior (spitting in a person's face). In my experience, ds did not feel unloved, he felt like I was being real with him. I agree, we need to be teaching--and it may be semantics or just perception as to which part of a response is teaching vs. punitive.

VERY well said.







This is how I feel about my kids....I love them unconditionally and BECAUSE of that, I want to teach them how to behave in ways that will help them be accepted and loved by others.


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## tracysroberts (Dec 25, 2007)

I would like to recommend Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn for you frustrated mamas.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Maybe I'm not being clear or something? I didn't suggest punishing the child? I said if the child is allowed to not be around someone that treats them badly (I would hope that's encouraged, at least), what is wrong with the gma in this situation saying "I don't want to play w/you, you spit on me" and then leaving the immediate area of the child? It's a natural reaction to not want to be around someone who acts like that and the child then learns not to treat people accordingly.

Just to clarify, I wasn't speaking to, or about you at all. I was speaking in general about those who remove the spitter from the situation as punishment for spitting. If your goal is to teach that spitting on someone makes the other not want to be around you though, then would it not make more sense to remove the person who was spat upon? "I'm sorry that you got spit on. That wasn't very nice. Let's take a break from playing and go clean you up." That doesn't really make much sense to me at all (as I would think it would be rather self-rewarding for the spitter), but it's late and this thread has gone somewhat out of control. LOL

Based on what you're saying about the natural consequences...


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It isn't about justifying. It's about listening. "Wow, you were really angry. What made you so angry?" Ifs he doesn't want to talk about it, fine, but she might want to be heard.

I'd likely stop at the first line...DD is the type who will follow that sort of thing with a "yeah" or "no" If she said nothing else, I might ask her if she wanted to talk about it.

I'm on the fence on whether saying "What made you angry?" and "WHY are you angry?" (like "you shouldn't be") are the same thing...

I don't know *why* that is such a big thing in my mind, making sure she, or my other two, don't feel like they have to justify their emotions to me. I guess that is part of ME never being "heard."

And not punishing doesn't mean "excusing" and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with encouraging. Encouraging would be, "Wow, great mouth muscles! That was some spitting!" Something positive done in an attempt to make it continue.

Hmmm true that on the encouraging.

I'm still working on this whole idea of not punishing yet not *excusing.* It's a whole new idea to me, as it's certainly NOT what I was raised on, and what I was told to do even in daycare and preschool was basically various forms of punishment, mostly time-out, removal of privileges, "if you do XYZ, you can no longer play with ZYX" type stuff, rewards for some and not others, you get the idea. (There were, however, *some* other methods, like seating certain children near you or apart from certain other children to avoid problems, things like that.)

This is an educational thread for me, and I see lots of ideas here that I think *do* fit the idea of "not excusing" but not *punishing* behavior. I will be trying these out the next time something happens that warrants it.

Also, stopping someone from running through the library screaming isn't the same as putting someone in a room after she spat at someone and is no longer spitting. If she were running around spitting on everyone, I'd move her to protect other people, but if she spat one time and stopped, putting her in her room isn't stopping her from spitting. The spitting is over. It's just a punishment.

True that. It was a one-time spit in response to being removed. So the spitting is done. She now needs a response that teaches that this is *unacceptable* and I think one of the least effective of these would be an isolated time-out.

Let's see...."isolated" no interaction with anyone to give her any sort of input as to what's happened and what was wrong.

And she's already angry, that's WHY she spit. Given that this is my daughter, trying to force her to stay in a time-out spot is going to make her MORE angry.

AND when *I* try to put her in time-out, she does not stay there. It turns into this prolonged power-struggle thing which results in tons of attention for her and totally shifts the focus off of what she did and onto this power struggle.

So...what I *wanted* to do was make sure she learns that spitting on someone is absolutely NOT acceptable no matter what that person just did. (She is THREE, let's save any possible escape-from-attacker scenes and all that. Let's stick to everyday-living scenarios with people she lives with.)

What I just succeeded in doing was engaging in a power struggle, giving her tons of extra attention (negative attention is still attention) and made her *more* angry....anger is not a frame of mind conducive to *learning.* And by the time we're done fighting about her staying in this time-out, we've probably BOTH forgotten what started this!

Yeah, I think there's more effective methods out there....methods that address her behavior without doing all of this!


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I don't understand the problem with natural consequences? The natural consequence of treating someone poorly is they don't want to be around you for the moment. A three year old feels the same way when a playmate hits them, spits on them, rips a toy away, whatever. I'd validate and encourage that decision from THEM to say "I don't want to play with this person who treated me badly" so what's wrong with it going the other way too?

I want my children to be comfortable setting and enforcing their own boundaries, specifically regarding what treatment they will tolerate from others. I teach this by respecting boundaries in others, and pointing out to my child that their behaviors can impact how others feel about them. To do otherwise, in my opinion, is unfair to my child and sets them up with unrealistic expectations about how their world, and eventually the real world, works.

ABSOLUTELY! If I would tell my 3 year old it's perfectly OK for her to say "I don't want to play with you right now!" to someone who is being mean to her, then what is wrong with Grandma walking away from her, going to wash her face, even saying "I'm going to go do something else for awhile until we're both not angry anymore." (and then of course that is the truth, when Grandma comes back, they make up.)
What better way could there possibly be for someone to learn the consequences of her actions, and that sometimes you just need to leave someone alone for a little while until they are ready to hear your apology?

If we were talking about two siblings in this scenario, I don't think anyone here would say it would be wrong for the "spit on" child to walk away and not want to be around the "spitter" for awhile.

Just because this is an adult and the one doing the spitting is a 3 year old does not mean the adult should pretend that their feelings were not hurt, or that they were not disgusted, or whatever the case might be.

In fact, that right there, in my mind is the best way my daughter could *learn*, from actually living through and talking about the true consequences of her actions. ("I want to go watch TV in Grandma's room." "Well, dear, Grandma went in to be alone because she was angry about you spitting on her...." "Oh, I could tell her I'm sorry...." apologies, hugs, scenario done.)

As long as it is a *true* scenario reflecting *authentic* feelings and reactions, and not something where anyone is playing out a scene to "teach a child a lesson."


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

The upshot of this whole nearly 100 post discussion?

I've figured out something that will probably carry us through *many* situations in life.









I've seen the 'light' that spanking obviously does not teach anything, that's why I came with a post like this. Because I want another response.

I am actually pretty glad isolation doesn't work with this child...because it really doesn't *teach* anything either, especially in a situation like this.

If I could replay this particular scenario....here's what I would want to do and why.

I would want MY MOM to be the one to take the time away from DD. (which she would want to do)

Why? Well, because when somebody treats you like that, you *don't* want to be around them. It doesn't matter if you are 3 or 103, doesn't matter if the person doing it to you is 3 or 103, you don't want to be around a person who is being mean to you. I think this is the best way for someone to learn what kind of treatment you're going to accept from them.

And DD is going to hear whatever needs to be heard much better from me, a person who she is not angry with at the moment.

The first thing she's going to hear, the minute I step between them, (and I would, you'd have to know these two to know that I as parent need to step into this scene and take over if I want it to go non-punishment-like) is a firm "We DO NOT spit on people!" Boundary drawn. From there, Grandma has left the room, and DD and I can talk about what happened and better reactions.

I almost guarantee that within a few minutes of Grandma being alone in her room, DD will want something from her. Which would give us an opportunity to talk about why Grandma went to be away from her and what she can do to help Grandma know that she is sorry and want to be around her again. (she *would* be sorry, she's sweet and doesn't *want* to hurt anyone, she is THREE and doesn't think ahead when she's overcome by anger and frustration at not being able to do something she wants to do)

I think this gives her an opportunity to interact and *learn from* this situation, and that it addresses the behavior at hand without imposing anything 'fake.'

And it avoids the power-struggle that *is* me attempting to use time-out with her. Don't ask me why it works for her dad and not for me, doesn't matter, *I* need to do what works between her and me.

*my mom* would likely think I've not really "done anything" but that is her problem. She had her chance, this is mine.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Ok but thinking of the toddlers I have known...wouldn't that have the risk of encouraging spitting? I've found a bit of "eww" or "oww!" to entice giggling and repeats.

I don't know...maybe in this situation w/ the 3yo particularly doing it out of anger...it wouldn't cause this?

A natural consequence isn't an attempt to teach or not to teach, it is what happens naturally. Simply what happens if no one forces anything. If you are talkign about a consequence someone makes happen intended to teach, your'e talking about a punishment, not a natural consequence.


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## tracysroberts (Dec 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
A natural consequence isn't an attempt to teach or not to teach, it is what happens naturally. Simply what happens if no one forces anything. If you are talkign about a consequence someone makes happen intended to teach, your'e talking about a punishment, not a natural consequence.

From 15 years and a masters degree in Child Development.... Absolutely!

Once again, I think Unconditional Parenting is a must read for all parents.


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## aloharuiz (Feb 6, 2010)

I think it is hard not to punish a kid especially when you know that what he or she did was really bad. Sometimes I get tempted to spank my 6 year old kid when he talks back. But never did I lay a hand on my him because I know that aside from discipline, I will be teaching him cruelty too.

___________________
Fat binder | Hunger suppressants | Slimming tablets | Hoodia appetite suppressant


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* 
The first thing she's going to hear, the minute I step between them, (and I would, you'd have to know these two to know that I as parent need to step into this scene and take over if I want it to go non-punishment-like) is a firm "We DO NOT spit on people!" Boundary drawn. From there, Grandma has left the room, and DD and I can talk about what happened and better reactions.

I almost guarantee that within a few minutes of Grandma being alone in her room, DD will want something from her. Which would give us an opportunity to talk about why Grandma went to be away from her and what she can do to help Grandma know that she is sorry and want to be around her again. (she *would* be sorry, she's sweet and doesn't *want* to hurt anyone, she is THREE and doesn't think ahead when she's overcome by anger and frustration at not being able to do something she wants to do)

I think this gives her an opportunity to interact and *learn from* this situation, and that it addresses the behavior at hand without imposing anything 'fake.'

And it avoids the power-struggle that *is* me attempting to use time-out with her. Don't ask me why it works for her dad and not for me, doesn't matter, *I* need to do what works between her and me.

*my mom* would likely think I've not really "done anything" but that is her problem. She had her chance, this is mine.

Well said!! I'm really glad this thread happened. You really seem to have a good grasp at how gentle parenting works.


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