# why are you pro-life? (not a debate thread)



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Hi, I know I'm gonna get flamed







but I wanted to know if us pro-lifers could discuss why we are pro-life.
what makes you believe what you believe? (and what do you believe)

I consider myself VERY pro-life but in some things (such as rape) I have yet to form my point of view. (workin' on it) and would like to know what you think.. thanks!


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

It would be nice if you didn't get flamed. Could you specify that this is not a debate thread? Maybe? Otherwise I guess we can just be roasted together, since I'm very pro-life!







:

I am pro-life because I believe that a baby is a valuable human life from the moment of conception, and not just a "potential baby". In my world view, to kill a baby at any stage of gestation is as morally wrong as killing any born human of any age.

As far as rape, I'm not sure I would dare tell a woman who was raped what to do, unless she was a very close friend and came to me for advice. She would need counselling and a lot of love and care, not a diatribe on abortion. However, my personal belief is that it is the rapist who should be killed, not a baby who might result from that heinous act. And from what I have read, it is possible that having an abortion might only compound the pain, not relieve it. *Also*, I have now heard several times talks given by two women who were products of rape. One's teen mother decided to carry her to term and give her up for adoption. The other survived a botched abortion and was also adopted. Since they are speaking for the pro-life side, obviously they are extremely grateful to be alive, regardless of the circumstances in which they were concieved.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

you might want to use the search feature there have a ton of threads on this topic.


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

i've been pro-life for most of my life... i first thought about it when i was friends with a woman who was adopted and who spoke to me openly about how her birth mother was a teenage mom who decided not to have an abortion. she also wrote very moving pro-life poetry... (i knew her from about the 4th grade through high school)

i don't feel that it is completely out of the question for victims of rape or incest (even though i personally wouldn't do it, even in that kind of circumstance)... especially since there is the option of the morning after pill, which if i'm not mistaken just prevents the egg from implanting in the uterine wall. but outside of that... i just feel it's wrong.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I am very pro life....I am pro life because I believe that every baby conceived is a living human being with a soul...and it's that way from the moment of conception. I do not feel I have the right to chose which life is worth living and which is worth ending. A baby is defenseless and can't chose whether to be born, and therefore it is my right as a woman, and a human being, to defend that baby who can't speak for himself. Each life is valuable, each important, each worthy. And by aborting a baby, the person who is going to cure cancer, lead the nation, or otherwise do great things for the world may never have the chance to be born. I believe every baby deserves a chance.

I also believe that it's a well known fact that sex creates babies...if you don't want to risk having a baby, don't have sex, or do so with full knowledge of what you're doing (for example, don't have sex during your fertile times). I am a person with a mind and free will, and I have the choice to be responsible and exert self control, or I have the choice to throw self-control out the window and act according to animal instincts...either way, I have a choice and must face the consequences of that choice. However, when another life is conceived, my rights and desires are not the only ones to consider...I then must become an advocate for the voicesless, tiniest member of society who can't defend himself....

Finally, sex, conception, pregnancy, and birth are all completely natural. What is more fundamental to natural living than to birth a life you created?


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

>especially since there is the option of the morning after pill, which if i'm not mistaken just prevents the egg from implanting in the uterine wall.

I think that's the main intention of it, but I have a feeling that like the Pill itself, the morning-after pill has a secondary function of making the uterus inhospitable to a baby already concieved.
I remember reading this on another forum, and someone had the links and studies, but I didn't take the time to collect them so I had them for future reference. Silly me.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I am pro-life. I am also pro-choice.

I have never really come across a person who is pro-abortion. Most pro-choicers I know wouldnt personally have an abortion but they still believe that it should be legal and do not condemn women who choose to have one.

I feel that it is very important that abortion is legal - making it illegal wont stop women from having them and I think it would be highly unfair for these women to have to put themselves at great risk to have an abortion.

Having said this I do not think that abortion should be used like a contraceptive. Men and women need to be responsible and if they fall pregnant JUST because they were not being responsible then I dont personally think abortion is the right way to go.

Having said that - it would be sad for the baby in a situation like that to be born into an unloving environment to parents who dont want him. Every child a wanted child.... but how do we ensure that abortion isnt abused? I dont think this is very possible....

This is such a complicated topic....


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
I am pro-life. I am also pro-choice.

I have never really come across a person who is pro-abortion. Most pro-choicers I know wouldnt personally have an abortion but they still believe that it should be legal and do not condemn women who choose to have one.

I feel that it is very important that abortion is legal - making it illegal wont stop women from having them and I think it would be highly unfair for these women to have to put themselves at great risk to have an abortion.

That is EXACTLY how I feel, but I have never thought of myself as pro-life. I actually started reading this thread because while I READ pro-life I was thinking pro-choice.

I once knew a women who was extreamly feminist. She was 17 when she had her first child in 1969 in the SF bay area. At some point after this child she had an abortion. (btw this first child was my BF in high school which is why I knew her.) She always told me that she would never recommend to anyone to have an abortion. There are always other options and it would be better for everyone all around to give the baby up for adoption.

A friend of mine in high school had an abortion. She feels her mother pushed her into it. She was 15 at the time. She is now 33 and has no children and doens't plan on/nor does it seem she can, have children. She once told me that she feels she is being "punished" for the abortion she had as a teenager. That she gave up her chance to be a mother.

My cousin had an abortion when she was in her 30's. She felt so guilty she turned around and got pregnant again 2 months later.

Most people I know who have had one regret it. I would never however, tell anyone that they could not have one. I don't believe in protest, or blocking access to clinic to deny services to people seeking them. I don't think they should be made illegal because I believe EVERYONE has the right to choose what to do with their own body. I however choose not to have one.

Tina


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## hnybee (Sep 21, 2003)

big pro-life-er here, but just wanted to add:

I have several friends that are forever messed up emotionally because they had an abortion when they were teenagers. And now two of them are battling fertility problems to boot.

-melissa


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
I think that's the main intention of it, but I have a feeling that like the Pill itself, the morning-after pill has a secondary function of making the uterus inhospitable to a baby already concieved.

was the morning after pill recently made available over the counter? i'm not sure... but back when i was pregnant with my first, you could go to any planned parenthood or women's clinic for "emergency" morning after pills... which meant they were available to victims but not to the general public (where i'm sure it would be abused). the only problem was you had to know it was there... i don't remember there being any sort of publicity on the subject... so unless you were ready to go to a hospital after being victimized, which a lot of rape victims don't, it wasn't an option.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

When I was young I was sort of on the fence concerning abortion. The concept of aborting a baby just never seemed right. After my first pg and learning about the developing baby inside me , I knew from then on that I was definitely pro-life. I'm not a big fan of the rape issue either. My dh is the result of rape/incest. The value of a human life doesn't change because of how they are conceived. IMHO.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

>My dh is the result of rape/incest. The value of a human life doesn't change because of how they are conceived.

And it takes on a whole new meaning when it's personal, doesn't it? People can argue hypotheticals 'til they're blue in the face, but the reality is, there is *life* at stake.
I don't know anyone alive now who sincerely wishes they'd never been concieved, or been aborted, no matter what the circumstances.


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

I am also pro-life here.
I do not condone abortion except when the life of the mother is a stake. Rape or incest are not a reason to me. I used to think there were but then when I really thought about it, why would it be wrong to kill one baby but not another just because of the way they were concieved? I do think that "morning after" pills should be offered to all rape victims if whithin the time limit. I personally do not think that it is a life untill it implants(I think that is the medical def of a pregnancy?) so I do not have a problem with people who have an accident or are raped using that. But I do have a problem with actually taking hte baby out of the womb.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I am pro-life. I am all for choices... but to me there is a big difference between intentionally killing your baby (abortion) and giving birth the way you wish, not knowing the outcome. After all, birth is such a mysterious thing even with all the medical knowledge and hindsight is 20/20. Sometimes women die from c-sections or giving birth vaginally under a doctor's care. Nothing is 100%. The common argument that making abortion illegal causing women to have to bow to a dr.'s advice for prenatal care just doesn't seem possible. Of course, with the stupid judges we seem to have these days I suppose anything can happen.

I don't think abortion is the answer for cases of incest/rape. Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of shame and fear involved and a pregnancy on top of all that is probably quite difficult. Of course, I don't think rapists are punished thoroughly enough myself.









Either way... once conceived, I believe he/she is a baby and deserves the same rights that we all enjoy.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

> I personally do not think that it is a life untill it implants(I think that is the medical def of a pregnancy?)

It has changed in recent years. When my parents were in med school 20some years ago, it was only just beginning to be debated. Before that, in my grandpa's time, it was conception.

I don't see why implantation makes such a difference? The baby is growing for days before that. A second before implantation, it's not a baby, but a second after, it is? Just thinking "out loud".







Conception is a *definite* start to human life. Before that, it's just two different cells, egg and sperm. Implantation is just a change of location, and a change from moving to stationary--obviously necessary for the baby to continue growing, but still, just a change, not a beginning.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Why am I pro-life?

I believe that an unborn baby is a human being, smaller certainly, but still just as human as anyone born, and I believe that affords them the right to live. I do not think that the fact that they are dependant on the mother takes away their right to life.

There are so many more reasons, but that is first and foremost the main reason.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

the morning-after pill has a secondary function of making the uterus inhospitable to a baby already concieved.
This is not exactly correct.

http://www.parentsplace.com/expert/o...a=adid=9200407

It depends on the development of the baby when the morning after pill is taken.


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## paula_bear (Nov 23, 2001)

I'm actually pro-choice, but I agree that if one has sex, one must either take precautions to prevent pregnancy or take responsibility for the consequences. I don't think abortion should be used as a form of contraception. But I believe that women should still have the legal right whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. I don't judge those who feel they cannot, whatever their reason. Especially when it resulted from rape or incest - they did not willingly conceive - why should they have to suffer going through a pregnancy and birth and then (possibly) have to give the baby up for adoption?

I'm not trying to debate, mind you, just trying to express my perspective. I had an abortion when I was in my early 20's and don't regret it, didn't suffer any emotional or physical problems, and went on to have 2 healthy pregnancies and wonderful children when the time was right. My pregnancy was a result of contraceptive failure and I was NOT in any way ready for motherhood, and the father refused to take responsibility, meaning I would have been alone.

My personal belief is that the soul descends at the time of birth. I believe that "aborted babies" will eventually be born, either to the same mother or a different one. Just my two cents.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

I am pro-life because I believe that "it" is a life from the moment of conception, and it is not our right to kill any other human life.

I DO believe in our ability and right, as women, to make empowered choices, but I think the choice in this case is not to have sex when not ready for the possibility of pregnancy.

I think it's irresponsible to have sex without being ready for the consequences, and that it's degrading to women to act as though they are mature enough to deal with sex but not with motherhood.

Rape or incest or birth defect or health of the mother has no impact on the morality of the situation, IMO. I would not shoot someone to save my own life. It's the same, to me.

As much as I tend to be kind of "do whatever makes you happy and doesn't hurt others" in other legal matters, I really don't understand that attitude about this issue. I am confused when someone says that they don't approve of abortion, as they see it as killing a child, but they want to leave that choice open. Do we leave the choice of any other murder open, because we don't want to judge?

I completely understand the rationale for leaving it legal if you do not see it as life- but to see it as an ended life/soul/person and still want it legal confuses me.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paula_bear*
but I agree that if one has sex, one must either take precautions to prevent pregnancy or take responsibility for the consequences. I don't think abortion should be used as a form of contraception.


this is what I believe. (and I actually consider myself pro-life, I don't know how I feel about being "pro-choice", I think I'm just against abortion period. not against who chooses, the government or the woman. just against abortion)


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC*
I am pro-life because I believe that "it" is a life from the moment of conception, and it is not our right to kill any other human life.

I DO believe in our ability and right, as women, to make empowered choices, but I think the choice in this case is not to have sex when not ready for the possibility of pregnancy.

I think it's irresponsible to have sex without being ready for the consequences, and that it's degrading to women to act as though they are mature enough to deal with sex but not with motherhood.

Rape or incest or birth defect or health of the mother has no impact on the morality of the situation, IMO. I would not shoot someone to save my own life. It's the same, to me.

As much as I tend to be kind of "do whatever makes you happy and doesn't hurt others" in other legal matters, I really don't understand that attitude about this issue. I am confused when someone says that they don't approve of abortion, as they see it as killing a child, but they want to leave that choice open. Do we leave the choice of any other murder open, because we don't want to judge?

I completely understand the rationale for leaving it legal if you do not see it as life- but to see it as an ended life/soul/person and still want it legal confuses me.

I agree and disagree with you on somethings here.

"I completely understand the rationale for leaving it legal if you do not see it as life- but to see it as an ended life/soul/person and still want it legal confuses me."
I totally agree with this. I often wonder if they really believe it or are just saying the words that sound good and non-judgemental.

"health of the mother has no impact on the morality of the situation, IMO. I would not shoot someone to save my own life."
This I would have to disagree with you. I would shoot someone to save my life or the life of my child/loved one. I believe that I have the right to do whatever I can to keep my life. This is the only case where I believe that abortion should be an option. I do not know that I would choose one, but I could never tell anyone that they cannot make the choice to defend themselves. Not that I think the life of the mother is more important, but that they are equal and it is not my place to make a woman choose.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I think I'm just against abortion period. not against who chooses, the government or the woman. just against abortion)

Who isn't?

The issue is not what you are for or against, the only issue in this debate is: who gets to choose what happens to OTHER PEOPLE'S pregnancies? Does the government?

I would carry any pregnancy I have to term, but I appreciate the fact that I get to make that decision.

Prolife vs prochoice is NOT a moral issue, it's a LEGAL issue. Even if the arguments used are overwhelmingly moral, in the end it's about what's LEGAL. Even if you think it's wrong, you can still believe it should be legal.

I believe that killing livestock should be legal, but boy do I believe it's wrong!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

yes, but there is a huge misconception IMO. since pro-life and pro-choice tend to be against each other, I used to think pro-choice was the exact opposite of pro-life..

I know it's not, but i think some people may still think that....


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

[


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

I'm pro-life because I'm anti-murder. We are HUMAN BEINGS - born or unborn. I'm sure there are plenty of "good" reasons for murder of born people (as many as there are "good" reasons for having an abortion), but none of those "good" reasons make murder a right.

And while I'm talking about rights, so much for every human being having the fundamental rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

It would seem the "pursuit of happiness" right for born people superceeds the right to "life" of unborn people in America. It's not moral and neither should it be legal.

Murder is murder is murder.

A bit







T but...
IMO, this is the legacy that "feminism" (in many respects, I'm a member of www.feministsforlife.com) has bought us as women. We want to DENY what our bodies are capable of. Children are no longer a blessing, but are often considered a "curse"















It makes me very sad. Abortion hurts women - it's not empowering at all. It's not about "keeping laws of our bodies" or any other catch phrase, it is merely a legal invitation to "choose" to become murderers of the lowest kind. And as someone who was allowed to make that "choice" at 17yo, all I can say as a former baby killer is...

I'm so incredibly sad and sorry. That's why I'm pro-life.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

mcimom-


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

leighann- I applaud your courage and the freedom of your words. I agree with everything you said







's


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

m


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

LeighAnne!


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I dont think I agree with those who have said that rape and incest are not grounds for an abortion....

I have been raped. I didnt fall pg but I can tell you something - I felt repulsed and dirty for months afterwards. I honestly dont know what I would've done if I did fall pg... I would have most likey been a danger to myself and to my unborn baby. (yes I do think "it" is a baby...)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissingNYC*
I DO believe in our ability and right, as women, to make empowered choices, but I think the choice in this case is not to have sex when not ready for the possibility of pregnancy

But what happens if you didnt concent to sex? I was 12 when I was raped.... How the heck would I have dealth with being pregnant and having a child? Im not trying to incite an argument here - I just feel that its hard to make a decision without being in a situation where it may be easier said than done, kwim?

There is a lot of stigma attatched to falling pg when you are a teen and even if you are not married... I was 17 when I fell pg with amber and I not married so I know. I obviously didnt have an abortion in that situation even though it was offered to me. That was my personal choice based on the belief that I fell pg due to my own actions and lack of protection during sex.

So I can see it from two angles....


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

mcimom, I'm sorry for your pain, but abortion happened before feminism too. It happens is countries where feminism isn't an acquired right yet. Even if you don't WANT it to be a legal issue, it is. And fetuses are not children ~ I know they're potential children, but they're also potential adults, why doesn't anybody call it "adult killing?"

Finally, denying others the right that you made use of could smack of hypocrisy.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Interesting thread... things aren't always clear cut... only you can make the choice... whether it's right or wrong??? well, BTDT. I feel it was wrong for me. that's all I can clearly say.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Lisa


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Lisa- thank you too, for sharing


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## paula_bear (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*

<snip> The difference is that a fetus has no choice but to exist in the womb and the woman carrying it made a choice and like it or not put it there. That baby is not trying to ruin her life or harm her.

OK, and what if the woman DID NOT choose to "put it there"? As in rape or incest? I still hold that the soul descends into the body at birth, so I don't consider abortion to be the equivalent of murder. I respect that others believe differently than I do and would like to be accorded the same consideration.

I agree with simonee that this is a legal, not a moral, issue. If murder is the killing of any human being, then what about capital punishment? Why is it that many who fight for the rights of innocent babies also fight to fry the butts of convicted criminals (who have, BTW, been know to have been later proved innocent as well...) I'm not trying to start a debate here, please don't get me wrong. My tone is just a questioning one - can someone please help me follow the logic? Why is war against a sovereign nation who posed no immediate threat to one's national security not considered murder by most who consider abortion murder? Why is it that some fight so vehemently for the rights of the unborn, and treat those among the living with complete disdain, lack of compassion and even contempt? I just don't get it...

And I'm not speaking of anyone here at MDC specifically, I'm thinking more of the conservative right in general.

Searching for peace on earth,
PB


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

paula - many "conservatives" (myself included) are against capital punishment and unjust war as well so please don't lump us all into one category.

and simonee - i smack of hypocrisy? i think my post made it clear i wish that i had never been given the CHOICE or LEGAL OPTION to murder - the only difference in the murder i committed it's that it's accepted in our society whereas murder of a born person would have been a CRIME. it's legal, yes, for now...

and a fetus is a person, a human being - a "potential" it is not. a fetus is not a "potential" baby, just as a baby is not a "potential" child, a child is not a "potential" adult

they are ALL human beings in different stages of development, nothing "potential" about it. a fetus is not going to develop into anything other than a HUMAN BEING - not a plant, not a fish, not a dog. ONLY a HUMAN BEING.

so, you use language to compare the unborn to livestock. i use language to convey that abortion is what it is...baby killing.

Flame away!


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

[


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

i think my post made it clear i wish that i had never been given the CHOICE or LEGAL OPTION to murder - the only difference in the murder i committed it's that it's accepted in our society whereas murder of a born person would have been a CRIME. it's legal, yes, for now...
I really can not understand why because YOU made a bad choice you want to remove the freedom to make a choice from others.

My family makes many choices that are not what others would choose. I have no need to limit others to my selection, though. Even to limit their choices for things I consider morally wrong.


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## orangemustang (Mar 25, 2004)

I have heard the "I dont know a person that is alive that wished their mother aborted them"comment. I wanted to add that I am glad my mother had an abortion. if she would not have had an abortion, I wouldnt be here. She got pregnant and had an abortion and then 6 months later got pregnant again w/ me.
I still dont have a solid opinion on the whole issue. I try not to judge.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I have been following the thread, but am now going, I thought this was a thread intended for pro-lifers to tell why they are pro-life, and I thought it was not a debate thread, it doesn't seem to be working out that way.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I dont think there is any nastiness going down here.... am I blind???

I personally feel that there is no black and white when it comes to having an opinion regarding abortion.

Personally, I like to debate it (not have a slinging match - just healthy debate) it gets me thinking and seeing things from other people's points of view.

Questions will be raised and where there is confusion, clarity will be called for...

I draw the line at personally bashing someone for their opinion and/or experiences. Thats not our place.

But questioning is not a bad thing, is it?

I have a few of those.... Should I not ask?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Ooops







Sorry!


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

k


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Ok... well I am interested in the rape/incest situation.

I was raped. At 12. Thank goodness I didnt fall pregnant! But what if I had? It seems alrights to say that adoption is the way to go, etc but surely a 12yr old (and younger in some sick cases) cannot bear the emotional and social negativities that go with being pregnant, birth and the stigma thats is attatched to this....

Im curious to see what ppl have to say about this...

*now lets play nice, k?*


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Ik


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Thank you for being so honest.

I worry because if this happened to my dd I also wouldnt know what to do! Its a very touchy area indeed....


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I really can not understand why because YOU made a bad choice you want to remove the freedom to make a choice from others.

My family makes many choices that are not what others would choose. I have no need to limit others to my selection, though. Even to limit their choices for things I consider morally wrong.

Okay, let me rephrase then. I didn't make a "bad choice" - I committed murder.

I want to "remove the freedom to make a choice from others" not because I made what I consider to be a "bad choice" but because what I was allowed to choose is murder and I don't believe that murder should be legal.

Abortion is killing a human being which = murder, which isn't legal.

It's not about removing CHOICE, it's about removing MURDER as an option just because a human being is unborn vs. born.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

But, once again that is basing others options on your opinions.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

it is not merely my "opinion" that a fetus of a human being is a human being. it is a scientific fact.

Quote:

foetus, US ALSO fetus
noun {C}
a young human being or animal before birth, after the organs have started to develop
a "fetus" or an unborn human being (or, let's be honest, if you want it!-a baby!) is a human being and murder is illegal.

Quote:

murder
noun {C or U}
the crime of intentionally killing a person
...sigh...but in our warped society a human being in the early stages of development is not considered such and therefore, for now, until we get our heads out of our a$$es - murder of the unborn is legal...sigh...

alright all, i'm unsubscribing now, as it is clear that certain people cannot keep from debating (including myself) and I want to respect the OP's wishes that this remain non-debate.

hopefully, some of you found my 2 cents useful and i didn't offend by engaging in the debate from the pro-life side of things.








to you pro-life mamas!


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## paula_bear (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcimom*
paula - many "conservatives" (myself included) are against capital punishment and unjust war as well so please don't lump us all into one category.

If you read my whole post, you can see that I said, "And I'm not speaking of anyone here at MDC specifically, I'm thinking more of the conservative right in general."

Ooops, posted this reply before I realized she had unsubscribed. Sorry all, but I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't lumping _anyone_ into broad categories...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I am pro-life because I think that an unborn baby is just that, a baby who isn't born yet. That's why.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I am sorry I keep debating. I will stop now.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I was always pro life. It just kind of "felt" right. Then I took a seminar about the scientific facts of when life begins. I was amazed. Now I'm even more so pro life. It's really changed my perspective in this pregnancy as well. I was always afraid to attach myself to the baby until after the 12th week (or longer) I feel differently now. So much happens at conception much less in the 12 wks following. (and the 28 weeks following that!) I really paid attention this time and I could truly feel and know when this baby was conceived up to the minute. It's amazing.

I'm also pro life because I feel that girls and women are fooled into thinking that having an abortion makes their "problem" go away. It may, for the moment, but everyone that I have known personally that has had an abortion has suffered greatly in one way or another b/c of it. Even if it's 20 or 40 years later. Even if these women remain "pro choice" many of them still suffer in their lives. That makes me sad. I've heard a lot of women say they didn't really know what they were doing b/c they were only 14, 15, 16 years old. Most (if not all) of them were allowed to do it without their parent's permission. That horrifies me. I don't want my children to have that kind of choice without my knowledge. There are alot of gray areas here, however. If we're going to be pro life than other alternatives such as crisis pregnancy centers, unwed mothers homes, etc need to be aplenty. There needs to be many people who are willing to donate time, money, their homes, etc. to help these women. I was a single mother in college and it was nearly impossible to find a decent daycare, get studying in, etc. I would love to help other girls in my situation. I'm raising my children to not only pray that abortion will end but to DO something to help the women and girls who choose life. My mom was all "pro life" when I was a kid but was the first to point a finger at a young, unwed mother. That's horrible hipocracy, IMO. Wasn't it just her worst night mare when I got pg in high school. She pointed a finger at me as well.

Anyway, that's why I'm pro life. I know this is my calling in life. Not to picket outside abortion clinics but to be behind the scenes helping scared girls/women make a choice they and their babies can LIVE with.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

T

Quote:

I really paid attention this time and I could truly feel and know when this baby was conceived up to the minute. It's amazing.
ITA! It is an amazing gift.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad7+*
I know this is my calling in life. Not to picket outside abortion clinics but to be behind the scenes helping scared girls/women make a choice they and their babies can LIVE with.











Im still so cofused about the rape/incest thing though.. there is so much trauma to deal with when you are raped and if someone falls pg when raped, then there is even MORE trauma!


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*









Im still so cofused about the rape/incest thing though.. there is so much trauma to deal with when you are raped and if someone falls pg when raped, then there is even MORE trauma!









I think that would have to be handled with delicate gloves and on an individual basis. To allow someone that was raped to just walk into a clinic and have an abortion with no counseling, etc. really compounds their problems. They need someone to talk to and to talk it through. They need support because of the rape and to figure out where to go from there.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

For sure! I agree!

I am just wondering what if this happened to my dd.... What if after counselling it was decided she should have an abortion? That would make one "problem" go away but create more problems to deal with....

Im just really thinking out loud...... I wish stuff like this didnt happen


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
For sure! I agree!

I am just wondering what if this happened to my dd.... What if after counselling it was decided she should have an abortion? That would make one "problem" go away but create more problems to deal with....

Im just really thinking out loud...... I wish stuff like this didnt happen










It would just be a horrible nightmare. Have you ever heard that mother that was raped and had the baby speak with her daughter? The dd is like 25 now or something but it's a truly amazing story. Inspiring.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Where was this - here? Or a book or article? It would be really interesting to read...

Thanks!


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I've heard them on Catholic Radio before. I'll try to look them up and let you know!


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Here's one on Gianna Jessen who survived her own abortion

http://www.relevantradio.com/docs/in...documentid=411

Here's what I found on Jennifer Speltz (the daughter)

http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/jennispeltz.htm


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)




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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Aren't they amazing stories? It just blows my mind! The one that survived her own abortion is an amazing speaker. I've had the privelage of hearing her a couple of times and she's so inspiring! She is so strong and just keeps going on despite her problems!


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

well, forgive me, i'm back but not debating (i don't think) but since this rape issue has come up so many times, i feel a need to respond... and before i start let's keep in mind that we're talking about less than 1% of abortions, ok?

i have a friend IRL who was raped at 14yo and had an abortion. at this point, she's still feeling like she made the right "choice" i think. her rapist/boyfriend's boss paid and took her to the clinic. so, she had no parental input. she stayed in an abusive relationship w/this person and don't you think the burden of that abortion on her shoulders - that feeling of "i don't deserve any more than this b/c of what i've done" - kept her in that relationship? to this day, still keeps her down? still keeps her feeling unworthy of the graces and blessings of her 3 children? still keeps her cowtowing to her dh (different guy) who just manipulates her in other ways than by physical force?

i agree, that rape is horrible. heck, just being "pressured" as i was in HS and college by various guys to have sex was terrible and demeaning and hurtful. of course i would be upset about a pg resulting from rape/incest w/my own dds and having to have a my own dd's childhood cut short in order to have her own child (whether she kept it or gave it up for adoption)...

BUT i'll say this... i don't think i would ever CHOOSE or support her CHOICE to continue the pain and suffering by putting her through an abortion. as someone who has been to the clinic and had a baby sucked out of her, i wouldn't wish that on anyone. i wouldn't wish the years of pain and regret and guilt that come afterward on anyone. (yes, i'm talking from my own person experience in this instance, but i have also talked to many other women and i've to this day yet to meet the woman who is happy and unregretful about her past abortion)

i would not compound the evil of rape with that of murder. just as i could never advise or support someone murdering their rapist (though emotionally i can understand the desire to do so!), i couldn't advise or support someone murdering the innocent victim of the crime.

children are a blessing. just think what that baby could mean to a couple w/infertility problems - what joy - what blessings - could come from that act of evil, if not to the victim/mother, but another home, another family - to that innocent life that has been created.

that would be infinitely more healing to a rape victim than choosing to murder a second victim from the same crime that was committed against her.

i won't debate this opinion in respect to the OP, but i stand behind it.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Well said, Leigh Ann!










I have been thinking along the same lines, but didn't feel like I had the right to post, never having been either raped or had an abortion.

I think Raven brought up the question of what a young girl who is raped and becomes pregnant should do, with the shame, the emotional stuff, the physical trials of pregnancy...
It struck me today that we could do *much* better than offering her an abortion. Getting rid of the baby won't erase what happened, and it may very well compound her misery.







What *would* be a good solution is to put her into a situation where she is safe and loved, so she can deal with the ramifications of the rape and the pregnancy, birth the baby, decide whether to keep it or give it up for adoption, recover physically from all of that, and recieve ongoing counselling. What if, instead of spending millions promoting abortion as a quick fix cure-all, we spent millions setting up and staffing safe-houses for such women?


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Maggie-your suggestion literally gave me goosebumps! Amen!


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## Knittin' in the Shade (Feb 14, 2003)

Haven't read any responses, so forgive if this goes completely off where the topic has headed, LOL!

I'm pro-life because I believe in the 10 Commandments, one of which is "thou shall not murder." In my mind, this means no abortion, no euthanasia, no death penalty.


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## paula_bear (Nov 23, 2001)

ekblad7+, thank you so much for your explanation of why you're pro-life. It is the most compassionate, and passionate as well, explanation I have ever heard from the pro-life side. I feel like I better understand the pro-life position, even as I hold a different one. Thank you for expressing yourself so eloquently!
Peace,
Paula Bear


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

I thought a few of you ladies might like this article on what a 12 week old baby can do. With modern technology providing better images we can see so much more. 12 week old baby.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

YES! I did enjoy it! And so did my kids! They can't believe anyone would want to kill something that is clearly so alive. They also enjoyed thinking of their new brother or sister being almost like that right now. Then they made me set the picture to my background screen. :LOL Thanks for sharing!


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## suebearsmom (Jun 26, 2004)

I have come full circle on the issue and Ill share some of the reasons why.In the 80s,I worked (Im a practical nurse) in a womens clinic whos slogan was "By women for women" .I never assisted with abortions,in fact preffered to work on the days where there was regular GYN stuff going on.I did,sometimes work in the recovery room for post abortion women.In spite of the warm slogan,it was all about aborting babies for money.Really.Women came from all over my state and even the adjoining states because supposedly,they were treated better there than at other places.Counselling was offered but it was a deceptive plan to get women to abort,not to explore all of their options.The dr. performing the procedures and other staff were not supposed to leave until the last patient was discharged from the recovery room.Many a night,I was left with a woman in unstable condition while the dr. & other staff went out for drinks at a nearby bar & rest.Out of the 100s & 100s of abortions I knew about,less than a handful were for those reasons that you hear about - rape,incest etc.- The overwhelming majority were for - whoops,I got pregnant,its not a good time for me to be pregnant.I was sickened to see how well-developed these "products of conception or tissue" as they were called were AND what the abortion process did to them.For some reason,women asked more often than you would think to see their tissue afterward.I can still recall vividly images of women in anguish saying







hy didnt someone TELL me!!!Why didnt you show me pictures of what my baby looked like so I knew! Simple,they wouldnt have gone through with it.I finally came to the conclusion - Abortion is not a good deal for women or the unborn.I left because the staff meetings became all about glee that they would soon be getting equipment to perform late 2nd trimester abortions.They were supposed to be doing 1st trimester abortions only but I was already seeing 14,16 & even an 18 week fetus slip through the cracks.I have several friends who aborted years ago and each one is in their 40s or 50s and never did have another baby.Each realises that,as it turns out,it was their ONE chance to be a mom and they will regret it for the rest of their lives.Only God can see the big picture of our lives and sometimes the thing that looks so impossible,is so right.Speaking of God,as I grow closer to Him and really kNOW of His love for me,I have learned(contrary to my dysfunctional upbringing) that I am highly valued in His eyes and that He has a plan for my life that only I can fullfill.How could I look upon each life with any less esteem? One thing that is so tragic,to me,about the millions of lives lost to abortion is what our society has lost.How many cures for AIDs or cancer were amongst those that never got the chance to fulfill the plan for their lives?As I have come full-circle,I have worked with women in crisis pregnancies,supporting them to bring their unborn babes into life.I have seen the women who became pregnant by rape and,like someone else mentioned,they have chosen not to give an innocent child a death sentence for someone elses crime.Those are some of the reasons why I am pro-life today.Catherine


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## suebearsmom (Jun 26, 2004)

PS I have no idea how the singing smilie got in the middle of my post.I didnt click on it,its not even on the page of smilies that are up when a person replies to posts????Hugs,Catherine


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Catherine- thanks for sharing your story.









The







smiley came from a colon and a capital W  W) right next to each other in one of your sentences.


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## hnybee (Sep 21, 2003)

Catherine - Thank you so much! Wow. there were so many good points in what you said. do you mind if i print it out and give it to my friend? It is so true that only God knows the plan for our lives. I go pregnant when I was 18 and everyone thought that would be the end of my live. Everyone assumed that I was going to have an abortion. I every went to see a therapist who said that was my only sane option. I didn't do it (couldn;t even consider that as an option) and I am so thankful i didn't. My oldest daughter has taught me so much and I am a better person for it. She is sunshine in my life everyday. Every day I am so thankful that I was blessed with her. God used an unplanned, scary event to teach me, grow me, and bless me. One of my best friends had an abortion right before I got pregnant (when I was 18) and then she had to sit by and watch me go thru my pregnancy. She is now almost 30 and I don't think she can have kids. She says she can remember being at the abortion clinic and they were putting her under. She said she changed her mind at the last minute and tried to tell someone. But she was groggy and could barely talk. She is haunted by this everyday. She goes thru depression and guilt. That is what makes me so angry. They advertise abortion and a simple procedure. But they lie. They don't tell the girls the emtional pricetag (and physical) price they will pay. It never goes away. I just wish I could tell these girls my story. I want to encourage them there there is more than one option. I shudder to think what my life would have become if ihad aborted my baby. God has used that situation in mighty ways. We need to remember the sanctity of life. There is value to life.

-Melissa


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

I saw my son jump like a bunny at a 12/14 wk ultrasound. A lot of what fetuses do is involuntary.

The vast majority of abortions are performed at the embryonic stage (ie, before 12 weeks) and the majority of those performed on FETUSES are after bad genetic testing.

I'm not debating pro-life/pro-choice. But I don't understand using the wrong terminology or innaccurate examples. And that goes on both sides.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Quote:

The vast majority of abortions are performed at the embryonic stage (ie, before 12 weeks) and the majority of those performed on FETUSES are after bad genetic testing.
I'm afraid that this is inaccurate information. Most genetic testing is done after twelve weeks and not all of them are 100% accurate.Prenatal testing.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

Most genetic testing is done after twelve weeks
That's what I said. Most abortions done on FETUSES (after 12 weeks) are done after bad genetic results. Before 12 weeks, they are embryos (or zygotes, depending on how far back you go) and those are elective (for the most part). I just don't understand using pictures and stories of 6 months old fetuses as the norm for abortion. It's innaccurate.

Of course the tests aren't 100%. But they are the main reason women have later term abortions.

Please don't take my posts as trying to debate. I truly in my heart can understand being pro-life. However, both sides tend to use really bad examples to sway people on the fence to either side, and it's not fair.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

My cousin had a late term abortion. She wanted that baby so much. How dare you try to make it seem like every woman who has an abortion for that reason is a murderer? She has pictures of her, just like she has pictures of her other children in the nursery. She has a name and we speak of her as a member of the family. She says she has four daughters, instead of the three that are living. It wasn't some messy procedure. It wasn't partial-birth. Please. She received a shot (similar to an amnio) to stop her heart and then birthed her.

Believe me, I understand the essence of being pro-life. I don't like abortion any more than the next guy. I just came into the thread to point out an innaccuracy. I'm going back to reading.


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## suebearsmom (Jun 26, 2004)

Melissa- you may use my post in any way that would be helpful to you & others







Thanks for pointing out about the whistling smilie busybusymomma! I couldnt figure that one out.Someone talked about being upset about pro-life people using pics of 6 mo old unborn babies on their posters.Well,the truth is that babes that age are being aborted every day and the laws support it.As far as I am concerned,they dont even need to use the pics of older aborted unborn babes to get the point across.Most of the women I worked with were emotionally devastated by seeing the end results of their 10 week old "fetuses".Little severed feet and hands and crushed little heads and rib cages.Not the "tissue" that had been talked about before they had the procedure......Catherine


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daricsmami*
My cousin had a late term abortion. She wanted that baby so much. How dare you try to make it seem like every woman who has an abortion for that reason is a murderer?

ummm, no, obviously she didn't want THAT baby so much or she wouldn't have killed it b/c it wasn't perfect. i have no doubt she wanted A baby, but clearly not THAT one or she wouldn't have aborted. please. as a mother of an aborted baby, i feel her pain. as a mother of an aborted baby, i can imagine how much guilt and hurt and confusion she has as the result of her abortion, but i'm a murderer and so is she. we both killed human beings. please don't try to candy-coat the issue w/terms like embryos and fetuses - every one is a HUMAN BEING in a developmental stage, not some kind of miscellaneous bodily tissue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daricsmami*
I'm going back to reading.

please do, re-read the whole thread, maybe you'll learn something.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcimom*
ummm, no, obviously she didn't want THAT baby so much or she wouldn't have killed it b/c it wasn't perfect. i have no doubt she wanted A baby, but clearly not THAT one or she wouldn't have aborted. please. as a mother of an aborted baby, i feel her pain. as a mother of an aborted baby, i can imagine how much guilt and hurt and confusion she has as the result of her abortion, but i'm a murderer and so is she. we both killed human beings. please don't try to candy-coat the issue w/terms like embryos and fetuses - every one is a HUMAN BEING in a developmental stage, not some kind of miscellaneous bodily tissue.

please do, re-read the whole thread, maybe you'll learn something.

I agree. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. So it looks like a human but because it's not perfect we'll call it a fetus and abort by killing it with drugs and extracting it from it's safe place in one manner or another.

I guess I can't reconcile how somebody can want a baby so badly, but when it's not perfect or it's the wrong gender they abort.







This is especially hard for me when I want more children, but at this time dh doesn't. All those babies being disposed of.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suebearsmom*
Little severed feet and hands and crushed little heads and rib cages.Not the "tissue" that had been talked about before they had the procedure......Catherine

Your posts have been very enlightening, Catherine. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.





















:









How utterly depressing though. That was my exact experience at the clinic when I had my abortion. Good, kind people who just wanted to "make it easy on me" and it was all about the CHOICE of abortion - no other choice. That term is so funny - PRO-CHOICE - b/c most (not all I know!) people who are PRO-CHOICE in terms of abortion are against other CHOICES like school vouchers or vaccinations. Oh, I'm getting







T

My point is, I'm with Silent No More and other organizations that don't seek to BAN abortions so much as to spread information about when LIFE truly begins and to at least show pictures and ultrasounds to mothers before it's too late. So they can truly CHOOSE and make a clear, completely informed decision which will affect them the rest of their lives. Not just believe the "hype" and misinformation about "tissue" and "fetus" and "embryo" - and don't forget my personal favorite "zygote"









You see an ultrasound of your 12/14wk fetus moving and choose to believe it's not an ALIVE, SEPARATE, HUMAN BEING inside of you, but rather some random mass of tissue involuntarily jerking around?







now that is a shame. I guess you can't argue with that though. The word heartless comes to mind, but that'd be flaming, right? :ignore








:





















I think this has been the most sickening violation of the OP's request in the the thread title yet.


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## amebt (Jun 26, 2004)

I am incredibly pro-choice. Its wonderful to be around so many other mamas who have the same feelings about this that I do.

To answer the OP question, I am pro-life because before I was born my mother had 2 abortions. The thought of what could be if she decided to have one more abortion is awful.

I am a young mama (22). And with both my pregnancies I knew that my only option was to raise my boys. Life gets tough sometimes, but I don't know where I would be without them.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Life is life, eh? There's no debating that. It's a crime to put puppies in a burlap sack and drown them. It's not a crime to kill our own human children. Go figure. Society is screwed up.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Just wanted to respond, because someone quoted me, and then said,

"But what happens if you didnt concent to sex? I was 12 when I was raped.... How the heck would I have dealth with being pregnant and having a child? Im not trying to incite an argument here - I just feel that its hard to make a decision without being in a situation where it may be easier said than done, kwim?

There is a lot of stigma attatched to falling pg when you are a teen and even if you are not married... I was 17 when I fell pg with amber and I not married so I know. I obviously didnt have an abortion in that situation even though it was offered to me. That was my personal choice based on the belief that I fell pg due to my own actions and lack of protection during sex. "

I totally empathize with and have deep compassion for any women who is involuntarily pg, no matter her age. But of course, it is all the more tragic when it is a rape, and even worse when it is the rape of a child. I know about the stigma of teen pregnancy, as I was a teen when my DD was born, and was encouraged to have an abortion by almost everyone I know.
As for how you deal with being pg and twelve- I am sure it's terrible. No child should have to go through it. But just because it's terrible doesn't change the morality of the situation. Murder is murder.

In reference to the person who said that they would shoot someone else to save their child? I would too, if a man pointed a gun at my baby and said he would kill her. I would shoot him. But that's not the situation. It's not self defense. This situation (abortion for the health of the mother) is like a man coming up and saying, "I will shoot you unless you shoot your daughter" and I kill her to save my own life. Whom amongst the pro-choicers would do that? I bet none of you.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

ummm, no, obviously she didn't want THAT baby so much or she wouldn't have killed it b/c it wasn't perfect. i have no doubt she wanted A baby, but clearly not THAT one or she wouldn't have aborted. please. as a mother of an aborted baby, i feel her pain. as a mother of an aborted baby, i can imagine how much guilt and hurt and confusion she has as the result of her abortion, but i'm a murderer and so is she. we both killed human beings. please don't try to candy-coat the issue w/terms like embryos and fetuses - every one is a HUMAN BEING in a developmental stage, not some kind of miscellaneous bodily tissue.
She didn't "kill" the baby because it wasn't perfect. It wouldn't have survived. And I'm not talking about 50% chance of survival. The doctor had never heard of a case of a fetus with as many deformities and internal problems as Zaire had, surviving more than a few hours after birth.

And no you can't imagine what she's going through.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC*
In reference to the person who said that they would shoot someone else to save their child? I would too, if a man pointed a gun at my baby and said he would kill her. I would shoot him. But that's not the situation. It's not self defense. This situation (abortion for the health of the mother) is like a man coming up and saying, "I will shoot you unless you shoot your daughter" and I kill her to save my own life. Whom amongst the pro-choicers would do that? I bet none of you.

Well said...


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daricsmami*
She didn't "kill" the baby because it wasn't perfect. It wouldn't have survived. And I'm not talking about 50% chance of survival. The doctor had never heard of a case of a fetus with as many deformities and internal problems as Zaire had, surviving more than a few hours after birth.

And no you can't imagine what she's going through.


That is an awful spot to be in for sure. I had a friend that went through that a while ago. She chose to birth the baby and it did only live for a few hours. At least she got those hours with her baby. It is not our place to judge, of course, but we must know what we're doing when we do it. If the baby was going to die anyway, I would have to wonder why she wouldn't have wanted it to be born alive and live for those few hours. Of course I've never been in those shoes. Thanks be to God.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I have. Thats not to say all women will handle it well though. My Dd wouldn't have lived witout TONS of surgery. Yet, even as she was the doctors never questioned if we would do all we could to save her. And she lived. And she's well. And that decision to allow her to live or die was made by God. If he wanted to he would have taken her, that was not my choice to make. I'd really like to know how many of these babies we hear about were really worse off than she was.

Wow! What an inspiring story. I have to wonder along with you. The medical community is so ready to just put to death anyone that's not "useful" to society or anyone that's considered less than perfect. Argh, that makes me sick.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I think we would all of us be horrified to find out the extend of the lies that are told in situations like that, or about pregnancy/birthing etc. My parents are both pro-life doctors, but they acknowledge that some doctors are willing to lie or stretch the truth in order to get someone to do what they think is necessary.

So...you have women told that if they have one more child, they and the child will both die. And they decide not to believe the establishment and go on to have 4 or 5 more healthy babies, with perfectly fine, natural births (I know several women like this). The doctors simply weren't willing to believe that a woman can safely bear more than 2.3 children. Or else they have a disdain for large families.

You have women told that tests have come back positive for all manner of awful things. Downs Syndrome, spina bifida....And again, it's either a real bad mistake, or a lie.

But even if the tests are right, and a child is disabled, or may not live more than a few hours, what human has the right to decide whether the baby should live or die?????????? How utterly unaccepting of difference is that? Do we all have to be perfect? Do we think disabled folks would rather not live? Do we discount the *joy* that disabled children can bring to a family, and only see the hardship?


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

I am Pro-Life. I am Pro-birth control be it NFP, the BCP, the morning after pill, condoms, IUD, cervical cap, sponge, herbs, abstinence and on and on. There are so many choices for those who choose to have sex before they want children. I am for parents teaching children about sex and consequences from a very young age. I am for schools teaching about sex and consequences. I am for condoms being available in gas station bathrooms and drugstores/grocery stores. I am all for women having standing orders with their physician for the morning after pill if that is what it takes...but that is where, in my mind, the choices end until birth, when there are new choices.

I sort of buy into abortion being a way for men to keep women "loose, available, and undercontrol." If women really wanted to support each other, help each other, and keep one another independent we would have places for pregnant single, abused, teen women to go to be loved (as another post said). But as long as women are willing to help each other kill we are going to be unable to break the glass ceiling. Until we rise to our standards (read the potential every woman has) (the standard I am referring to is one where women are respected, honored, loved, cherished, raised with self-confidence and self-worth, where men are taught from infancy that women are wonderful life-giving beings and not punching bags, doormats, a release for sexual violence and women are taught from infancy the powers that they posess simply by existing) we will never begin to be equal. I believe that the great downfall of women was when we used men as our model for excellence...because they hadn't done such a great job with the world. I believe allowing abortion demonstrates our societal lack of a moral compass, compassion, and love which bleeds over into every other decision from how we allow children to be treated in public schools, how we deal with criminals, how we deal with foster children, the mentally handicapped, the physically handicapped, our disjointed, disfunctional families and neighborhoods. If we can't or don't protect the those who are defenseless then NOTHING is sacred. Not families, not children, nothing. If women stood up together and said this is not okay, being treated this way is not okay, society is not okay, I think there could be meaningful change in our country. But as long as murder is a choice I don't foresee change. I'll breathe now...

As for incest/rape if our culture taught men restraint and love I think this problem would become a rarity and not the semi-common occurrence it is now. As for the choice between mother or child with all our new medical breakthroughs and the power of prayer I don't think abortion is a necessity.

I'd like to see some studies about cultures where women were the standard of civility, decorum, and were revered not objectified--to see those societies' occurrences of rape and incest. And if abortion is an option...

Cool Breezes,

Jenne


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Very well said, Jenne.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

What a self congratulating thread!







A log cabin could be built with all the planks in here.

I'm so utterly grateful for the choice protected in this country. I never, ever would put myself up as Judge and Jury for the world.


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## BCmommy (Sep 22, 2003)

Playdoh, post on my pro-choice thread


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

daricsmami







for your sister

other mamas here, wow for your sympathy! You really make prolife seem like the compassionate choice! I think I rather have a bleeding heart than no heart at all.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

BTW how about this scenario , oh ladies of know what's good for everybody?


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I was just gonna post that link too...









Not to incite debate but to see what others had to think....

Its so very sad!! I know its VERY unusual for a 9yo to have her period .... but it happens OBVIOUSLY!









Im so sad for this CHILD who has to have a CHILD!


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## suebearsmom (Jun 26, 2004)

BTW how about this scenario , oh ladies of know what's good for everybody?

This scenario is horrible.Anyone would agree.But you know,the truth is that medically necessary abortion has always been available for when the mothers life was in danger,etc. Society has bought into a lie that Abortion has to be legal for everyone so that those rare women in life-threatening situations could have acess to it.Well,they have always had access to it.The statistics speak for themselves - all legalising abortion for everyone has done is brought about the death of millions of babies & some mothers.Because its also a lie that legalising abortion has made it safer.Far more women have died at the hands of modern day abortionists in clinics than in back alley abortions.These clinics run by their own rules - they go way outside of safe medical practices in hospitals and other medical settings.Minors,who have know clue about their medical histories can walk in and have all kinds of drugs given to them and an invasive surgical procedure done and then be sent home with nobody to watch over them and monitor there medical condition,because nobody knew about it.Abortion is no more excessible to poor women then it ever was - another lie why making it legal makes it accessible to everyone.Yes,my heart aches for this 9 yr old girl.But it also aches for the millions of women & children harmed by abortion.Catherine


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I think we're veering from the OP at this point. The question was "Why are you pro life" it wouldn't appear that the last few posters are pro life so I'm wondering why they are even bothering to post? And name calling "oh ladies who know what's good for everybody" is against the user agreement. I think there's a pro choice thread somewhere.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Thanks Amy.

I really don't get it. If I am not a <insert religion here>, I don't go post on <insert religion> threads. If I'm not pro-abortion, I don't post on pro-choice threads.

This thread specifically says "Not a debate thread". Go debate amongst yourselves please.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

never mind, I don't think that quote even deserves a response


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

?







:


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Okay the last thing I will post here. An apology for repeatedly infringing on your thread.

I sometimes just start steaming knowing that you are the people who want to make decisions about my daughters body. Still, I didn't respect the OP.

But it was not name calling. It's the definition of Prolife ~ letting some people decide what's good for all.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

It may be YOUR definition of Pro Life but it doesn't belong on this thread. On this thread it IS namecalling.

And I don't appreciate the prochoicers making it possible for my 14 year old daughter to get an abortion without my knowledge.


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## suebearsmom (Jun 26, 2004)

"sometimes just start steaming knowing that you are the people who want to make decisions about my daughters body". Another way of looking at it is that you have less rights to do that now than before abortion was made legal on demand. Beforehand you could go to your family dr. and talk it over with your daughter & husband & dr. & figure out what would actually be best for her.Now,she could just go to an abortion clinic without you even knowing she was pregnant and have dr.s who know nothing about her medical history,give her drugs that she could be allergic to,perform a painful,totally invasive procedure on her and send her out cramping & bleeding to possibly hole up by herself and develop serious complications that could kill her or rob her of her future fertility.It happens every day and it is just bad medicine........Catherine


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

You cant start a no debate thread on abortion in activism and then post volitile comments and not expect a response from the other side.

I made some allowances for some support threads for political parties but asking for no debate on abortion??? And then making comments that the other side will feel compelled to answer to?

I have already stated I am not kicking posters off threads so if you want to keep a thread no debate then you are responsible for maintaining a peaceful atmosphere that isn't anti-the other side. Then they will feel less of a need to respond.

As soon as you use the words "murder" and "killing" then well...what do you expect?

You can hardly expect Adina or I to keep everyone who disagrees with you out of your thread when you are inflaming them.

Yes, there is a pro-choice thread...come to think of it there are *lots* of threads in activism, not just abortion threads.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

again Catherine, your posts are always so enlightening.

my~hearts~light - good for you for taking the high road. i'm so sorry i keep answering to the darn other side and debating with them, it's not like it's going to make a difference, you know?

i often go on pro-choice threads to lurk and learn why people believe what they believe, but i can't think of a time, i have ever posted on a thread implying that they have no hearts, that they are ignorant, that they are wrong, that they are _____ <fill in the blank> as has been done here and in other threads. IMO it's just like butting into someone's conversation you've overheard at a restaurant and telling them what you think - not only is it innappropriate, but it's rude.







oops, i forgot, I'm miss "know what's good for everybody" I must do that.

as for being self-congratulatory.







you bet your butts. and i have to say, why not? i congratulate each and every one of you for being pro-life and for your heartfelt reasons for being so and for sharing with the rest of us as that's what the OP asked for. i've learned a lot from this thread. hopefully someone has learned from my experience and not just "learned" that i'm a <fill in the blank w/your favorite curse word> and left the rest of the thread to the wayside as clearly _they_ "know what's good for everybody"









jessica, i'm sorry you feel that murder and killing are any more volatile than the term abortion - it is after all what abortion is, even though it's legal killing and legal murder and apparently to many, moral murder and moral killing. i expect in a forum of adults to be able to say that A is A without it being inflammatory. the only inflammatory comments i've slung have been at those who clearly violated the OP's request. AND I've used those same terms on myself as i fall into the category of both murderer and baby killer.







unfortunately...


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Actually my feelings towards abortion are totally irrelevant it isn't an argument I tend to jump into. I am just trying to look at things from both sides. I am not saying either side is better or more correct I am just saying you *can't* discuss abortion without it being inflamatory regardless of whether or not it was deliberate.

Abortion is something no one is ever agree on and it is tiresome having three-four threads on something people are just going to disagree about. We used to have a policy regarding the discussion of abortion and it wasn't allowed. No one wants to go back to that.

This is a subject that people feel STRONGLY about and many people base their political decisions on that one topic alone. I am not saying that is wrong, I don't think it is wrong but for a subject that is one of the most volatile in our country it is indeed a daunting task to try and have a discussion on abortion in which no one's views are trod upon.

Words like "baby killer", "anti-choice", anti-life" are tossed around like candy all over the boards. To actually maintain a peaceful and no debate atmosphere one would have to find a way to discuss their feelings **without condeming** the feelings of the other side and in regard to abortion I don't think it is possible.

I would love to be proven wrong on this.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

but jessica this isn't an "abortion-no debate" thread as you suggested - this OP opened the thread with a QUESTION "why are you prolife?" so if you're not PRO-LIFE, why post? i'm not saying don't read the posts; read away and learn and get steamed and start your own thread on "why are you prochoice? (no debate)" if you must, but don't come in and be inflammatory when people are discussing why they are PRO LIFE. the OP was clear and too many people posted disingenously.

why is too much to ask to have a few support-type threads? i'm not saying the mods should have to moderate for requests of support only, i understand it's a public bulletin board, but why can't the request be made and respected in this particular forum?

In many respects, Activism should be just called Liberalism - it's funny b/c I know leftists/liberals find themselves to be in the minority in "mainstream" society, but in this community (esp in this forum), they are far and away the majority and yet they consistently bash and keep out the minority of right wing/conservatives in this community on this forum, all the while clamoring that we all "keep an open mind"

sheesh, I am so







T it is embarrassing. I'm so sorry for continuing these constant tangents.


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## Stacie (Nov 19, 2001)

I feel that when a man and a women make love the golden winged fairies dance around you in hopes of conception. Absolutely beautiful - seeing energy all golden and dancing, smiling.

I believe in etheric life, I can't feel any other way.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

I am almost 100% pro-life. I believe that life begins at conception and therefore do not support the morning after pill or any other form of birth control that ends the life of the conceived child. Birth control should prevent conception, not end a life that is already conceived. I feel that abortion should be illegal with the only exception being the very event of when the mother's life is in danger.

I feel that the abortion industry can never offer women a non-biased "choice" as long as there are millions of dollars involved. Fetal tissue and the organs of late term aborted babies is sold for fetal tissue research. Planned Parenthood and others are harvesting these babies for sale. It disgusts me.

I am pregnant right now and I feel the soul of the new life inside of me. I know that the life inside of me is as equally important to God as my own life. I have no right to end that life for any reason.

I could go on but I think that sums up my view.

LeighAnne. thank you for sharing your story and your views. I have never met a woman (IRL) who did not regret her abortion.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcimom*
but jessica this isn't an "abortion-no debate" thread as you suggested - this OP opened the thread with a QUESTION "why are you prolife?"

What is the difference?


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

the difference is - why are you prolife? asks to hear from those that are prolife - anyone else is posting disingenously. i read the pro-choice threads, but i don't post.

what do you think about abortion? is something else all together. obviously then it's a free for all.

to every season, turn, turn, turn...







can't there be a time for support and a *separate* time for debate?


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## paula_bear (Nov 23, 2001)

I just wanted to add my .02, FWIW. I think that, with a few exceptions, this thread has been very peaceful and respectful. I began as a lurker, because I really wanted to better understand the Pro-Life stance. From many of the eloquently worded and compassionate responses here, I have achieved a higher level of understanding, even if my own position has not changed. I feel a great respect for your position, your views, and your passion. While I did not come here to debate, I disagree with those who believe that people like me should not participate in this discussion. Why preach to the choir? I believe that my careful reading of each post has helped to make me a better person with respect to this issue.

I have done my utmost to keep from offending anyone with my own posts. If anyone thinks I have failed in that, I will refrain from further posts. However, I have benefited from the DIALOG we have shared here (I think we can successfully have a dialog without it turning into a debate) and hope to continue to broaden my understanding. I think it benefits everyone to have the opportunity to answer questions from "the other side." If our world leaders did more of this sort of exchange, we may actually realize peace on earth!

Thanks to all of you who have so thoughtfully and skillfully put your views into words that have touched my heart.









Peace,
Paula Bear


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

Paula, I never thought your post were out of line or anything of the sort. I enjoyed reading them.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

yes, I wanted to come back here and say a couple things, now that I noticed this thread has gone a different way./

The reason for my post, (the OP) was that I want to know why you pro-lifers and pro-life. because I have been thinking about this lately, and I am trying to discover where I stand. what I believe.
I posted a lot in the AP and pro-choice thread and the one thing I don't understand, is that the pro-lifers there told me that they were not pro-abortion. but what I don't get, is why do they defend abortion? why do they say that the fetus or embryo is not a baby? that to me is defending abortion, not choice, saying that since they embryo/fetus is not a baby, then it's ok to abort, which to me, means that they are ok with abortion = pro-abortion.

I am wondering this and would like, if you can answer this, but not trying to debate something, I truly & honestly want to know your thoughts and beliefs on this. I find it very interesting to talk to other people with different POV. This is why I love coming here.

thanks,


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

The thing is, we're all free to start new threads but why is it when a poster starts a thread and asks a certain group of people why they believe the way they do... why does someone with differing beliefs see fit to come and throw in their POV?

The last few pages have been OT, IMO.


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

Well I guess I do not have a problem with them doing that as long as they are nice or respectful about it. So it doesn't bother me when they do. Sometimes very good questions are raised and talk that follows can be very informative. It can also qickly get nasty, but I this this thread as been informative.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

I am wondering this and would like, if you can answer this, but not trying to debate something, I truly & honestly want to know your thoughts and beliefs on this. I find it very interesting to talk to other people with different POV. This is why I love coming here.
I'll bite.









Do I think abortion is okay? Well, it depends on what "okay" means. Do I do cartwheels when I hear someone has just had an abortion? No. Do I think the world would be a better place if we all had abortions on a regular basis? No. Do I think abortion is fun? No.

I do, however, think abortions okay if that's what a woman chooses to do. It's not an easy decision and the process if very painful, but I feel once a woman has looked at her options and decided on abortion, I fully support her. What am I supposed to do, start throwing eggs at her??

So, I guess I do think abortion is okay. I think it's just as okay as putting a baby up for adoption. I'm neither for it, or against it. It's just another option to me.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Paula Bear - ITA w/your last post. I guess my thing is I read the pro-choice threads, but chose not to post for two reasons (in most cases)
1) my opinion is usually not asked for or welcome and
2) unlike many mamas on the activism boards, I can't stand the







and







that goes on in many threads on this particular forum so since I can't stand the







, I stay the heck outta the kitchen iykwim...

I agree there's not a whole lot of use in only preaching to the choir, but people who aren't "in the choir" are usually against my particular POV and see it as "preaching" and are offended by such. KWIM?

As someone who was a prior pro-choicer, loving-my-babies, I think the issue is that many people don't seem to realize what a slipperly slope being "pro-choice" is. I find so many people IRL (and used to feel this way myself) that say

"well, I'm not FOR abortion. I don't go out recommending it to people."
and
"I think it's only a necessary evil for those who have considered all their options, blah, blah, blah"
and
"who am I to tell someone else what to do w/their body?"
and
"what about those that don't choose to be pregnant?"
and
"I don't want women to HAVE to have (lost logic there, but...) back alley abortions, so..."
and
"the government can't legislate morals"
etc.

IME, pro-choice people are usually these really kind, loving, giving people that in many cases would never CHOSE to have an abortion themselves, but they have this flawed logic or have believed the "hype" that babies aren't babies if they aren't wanted, that they are simply "fetuses" or "tissue" or whatever the term is to make it easier to choose abortion.

_Now, please notice my DDDDC and note the fact that I GAVE IT TO MYSELF - I understand that I'm posting w/a bit of "elitism" here_ - but the fact is, I have been pro-choice. I have had an abortion. I have LIVED through a lot of this "pie-in-the-sky" philosophy that pro-choice people have and have come through the other side w/a real understanding of what it all means.

It's very easy to get emotional regarding abortion, but it's equally easy to be non-emotional and separate yourself from the issue by using terms and slogans like "fetus" and "choice" and "tissue" and "government legislating morals" and "laws off my body" etc.

And when you haven't personally been to a clinic and had a real live person actually SUCKED out of you, it's easy to say...well, who am I to chose for someone else?

But the thing is, we do - the government does - there are laws against MURDERING born people - and there are exceptions to those laws for things like SELF DEFENSE - but the slippery slope of pro-choice says that unborn people do not have the same rights as born people and shouldn't and even questions whether or not they are people.

The stance of "pro-choice" allows a person to sit back and as long as the issue doesn't creep into their own personal circle (or they don't realize it has, or they don't until it's too late) - they can sit back comfortably and just say "it's not for me, but i can't say it's not for you" and leave it at that...

...all the while, truly EVIL people profit from the sale of aborted baby parts, truly EVIL people make $ on abortions...

...all the while not-so-evil people try to "make it easy" on the girl/woman who comes in the clinic and not confuse/hurt her w/showing her where her baby is at developmentally or what emotional price she'll pay later for her action, not confuse her with other CHOICES like adoption or keeping her baby.

ugh,





















when will I ever stop? I just really feel that pro-choice for so many GOOD people is just this philosophy that makes them feel comfortable, but lets too many EVIL people profit off this industry. It also allows people to stay UN-emotional about real people really dying.

I have no idea if I've been clear or even on topic, it's just really














to me that this philosophy of "pro-choice" is abused and leads to this slippery slope that does indeed become, as you suggested "pro-abortion" though the _people_ behind it aren't necessarily "pro-abortion", kwim?

just like some "pro-life" people aren't really for all life and just like most "pro-life" people aren't "anti-choice" as might be said about them.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

I guess I'm prolife. I had an abortion when I ws 13 and although it didn't ruin my life, I regret it. When I was pregnant with my son, it just occured to me that there was a real live baby inside me, and there was no way around that. If it's not a baby, not a life...why am I protecting it by not drinking, taking certain medications? Why am I eating more and making sure to provide it with good nutrition? I wish I could understand the other POV better. I just don't understand how someone doesn't consider a baby a baby just because it is inside a womb. What about a baby that could survive if it were born prematurely? If it is aborted is it still not a baby? I guess this is the wrong thread to ask questions like that, but I really am interested in trying to understand the other side of this. In my heart, I feel that abortion is killing. Still, I won't protest to make it illegal. I can't say that abortion is wrong in every single instance, but it's my hope that we might someday have a world where there is no need for abortion. If any pro-choicers would like to pm me about the whole when is a baby not a baby issue, I would welcome that....I really am trying to understand.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Well, most of the thread was not in response to the OP, but I'll post my reasons.

I was always sort of instinctively pro-life. I can remember even discussing with my then-BF-now-DH prior to first having sex that I would never consider having an abortion. Then, over time, I learned more about it. I worked for an OB prior to going to med school, and while I was never present for an abortion being performed, we did perform a suction extraction of a fetus that had died in utero. That's the only time I have ever left the OR for feeling ill (I'm a surgeon.) The noise of the suction, the image of the bits of tissue hitting the inside of the vacuum container, was emotionally overwhelming.

What I learned in medical school about embryology only further served to solidify my opinions, and I was always shocked that most of the med students/doctors I know didn't incorporate this into their views on abortion.

So, why I am pro-life:
Logically, the moment of conception is when a unique life begins. There is nothing essentially altering to the zygote about implantation or even birth. Basically, conception starts development down a specific path which is only stopped when things interfere with it. As to when the "soul" becomes incorporated, I don't know exactly. Before birth, surely. My DS had a personality when I was still carrying him. I've cared for 25-26 weekers in NICUs and they are certainly invested with a soul. How far back do you go to be sure that there is no soul? Conception seems logical.

The young fetus can and does suffer pain, probably in greater severity than an older fetus or baby. The nervous system develops efferent pain fibers by 8 weeks, if I remember correctly, and does not develop the appropriate afferent nerves (which damp down pain over time) for weeks to months afterwards. The majority of abortions are performed during that time period. Ultrasound footage has shown fetuses reacting violently to hypertonic saline infusions (which are essentially a chemical burn), suction abortions, and D&Cs. The intentional infliction of pain on a human being troubles me almost as much as the killing.

Abortion (or the choice of abortion) is often used as a means of suppressing women. It is often a reason (spoken or not) in lack of support for pregnant women in school or work situations, or for men who feel they should not be held responsible, emotionally or financially, for a child. The majority of the reasons given for abortion have nothing to do with whether a child is wanted or not, but the circumstances surrounding the woman that make having a child difficult. Recent feminists have done a great disservice to women by focusing on abortion as the solution rather than fighting as hard for enforcement of child support payments, campus housing for moms, better maternity leave, better daycare, better medical care, laws holding rapists financially responsible but preventing them from contacting their victims or seeing the child produced from rape, improving social support and reducing stigma for single mothers, etc. Early feminists recognized this and fought _against_ abortion, which they viewed as another form of suppression (Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B Anthony, Alice Paul, Mattie Brinkerhoff, Mary Wollstonecraft, etc.)

The blind adherence to the right to abortion has progressed to the point where women do not have a choice. College health services will pay for abortions but not for prenatal care. Abortion clinics, due to political pressures, are exempt from regulations covering ambulatory surgery centers, despite the fact that they are performing abulatory surgery, and to the detriment (and death) of many women.

It is a fact of nature that women are both blessed and cursed with the responsibility of being pregnant. If there was a way to remove an unwanted fetus from a woman's body and incubate him or her safely until he or she was of birth age, then wonderful, I would support that. But I believe, to quote an excellent professor I once had (who was very liberal and would die to know how I am applying it), "My right to throw my arm in a punch ends where your nose begins." In other words, women should have the choice to do with their bodies what they want as long as it does not harm someone else's body. Abortion is the killing of another human being. Regarding the privacy argument, I think parallels could be made to the days when people argued that a family unit deserved the right to privacy and that if the patriarch of the household beat or raped his wife, or beat or molested his children, that the government should not interfere. I don't see how people make a distinction between allowing, even approving, of govermental violation of privacy to ensure that children or spouses are safe, but not to ensure that unborn babies are safe.

I personally am reluctant to support it even when the woman has been victimized by rape or incest, as it is punishing an innocent third party (I am opposed to capital punishment as well) though I am more understanding of the complicated issues entailed there. I do support abortion in cases where the mother's life is threatened, or her health is severely threatened (though the health ammendments to many abortion laws are too broad to be meaningful.)

Finally, regarding the discussion about the definition of zygote/embryo/fetus -- please consider that these are arbitrary terms defined by medical professionals simply to convey information about the age of the baby. They have no basis in any real change -- there is no moment in time when a zygote becomes a totally new creature called an embryo, no "soul-o-meter" that can go off and tell us when the baby is senient. Similarly, the three trimesters were just defined because 9 months was most easily divisible by three -- so the distinctions between 1st trimester and 2nd trimester abortions is to a degree semantics.

I too am a member of Feminists for Life and I highly recommend their website for anyone (of any persuasion on the subject) to learn about some very educated, though-provoking arguments against abortion.

Whew, I ran on for quite a while.







Thanks if you are still with me


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Thank you Shannon. I thought your post was quite well-written and informative.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Can you stand a little more? There are some criticisms of pro-life opinions that are often raised, and trouble me until I learned more about them.

Just some more things to ponder, things which often come up in discussion -- when abortion was illegal, it rarely occurred in back alleys, but usually occurred in doctor's offices under equivalent circumstances and death or serious injury was no more common then than now (after the introduction of antibiotics, that is).

Many people have also argued that legal abortion just makes safe the abortions that would already happen anyway. But the rates of abortion (1 in 4 pregnancies) argues against that.

Also, people have argued that abortion should be legal because unplanned/unwanted children will not be loved or treated as well. However, rates of child abuse, etc, have actually gone up at a higher rate since the legalization of abortion (for documentation, there is an excellent book by former Surgeon General Koop.)

More food for thought (there needs to be a smiley for that too...)


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

Many people have also argued that legal abortion just makes safe the abortions that would already happen anyway. But the rates of abortion (1 in 4 pregnancies) argues against that.
Can you explain this statement? 1 in 4 pregnancies now, or before abortion was legal?


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm pro-life because I believe life begins at conception. I don't think it is possible for the medical community to determine when life begins, either.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

wow sntm







thank you. well said


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daricsmami*
Can you explain this statement? 1 in 4 pregnancies now, or before abortion was legal?

1 in 4 pregnancies now. Significantly fewer prior to legalization.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

I am pro-choice for others, pro-life for myself... Officially I am neither.

I know someone who survived an abortion. She is my age, with cerebral palsy and obvious mental retardation, she is in a wheelchair and has a dozen surgeries under her belt to try and correct muscle problems in her legs.
Her mother got pregnant and wanted an abortion, she had tried to get one early on. The doctor did not do his checks very well. A fetus did indeed come out, aborted
But a month later she still had no period, and took a test that came up positive. Ultrasound showed a fetus 3 months along.
She'd had twins, one was lost, the other remained.
The remaining child was born with many problems, but alive.
She was in court nine years before winning close to 5million dollars from the doctor who supposedly performed the abortion.
She was the worst mother you could ever come across. She was neglectful, hateful, a drug-user, she spent all the money she could on frivolous things, she rarely did anything with her daughter, even less for... When my friend was 20 years old she surprised her mother, who always thought she had the intelligence of an 8 year old, and kicked her mother out of the house. She now OWNS the mansion, the van, the animals and lives with three aides who help her out. She is completely indepedant, and a very wonderful, highly intelligent person.
(I don't know the logistics of how/what happened, but I did watch the news during her winning the trial and this was the official story. It is also the one I was told when I asked her personally, so I assume it was correct).

Now... I also know someone on the other side.
When I was in 4th grade there was a girl in my class who was quadrapalegic. She was wheelchair bound, completely paralyzed, nearly catatonic. Why she was in school I don't know... she made noises on occassion, and could move her hands but not support her head. She had the intelligence equal to that of a small toddler, probably less.
I volunteered to spend time with her at recess, reading books and so on.
She had several other aides who would take her for daily walks around the grounds. Her mother used school as a babysitter...
One of her aides was notorious for neglect. Leaving her sitting somewhere and wandering off to do her own thing, "She won't notice!".
Part of this is rumor, but the basis is in fact. This girl very suddenly left school after an incident. All anyone knew was that she was left in a field, at the edge of the grounds while the aide ran into the building. When she came back the girl was out of her wheelchair, unstrapped and on the ground.
She'd been raped. Almost immediately she was taken out of school, shortly after the news came out that this girl was now pregnant (months later) her parents moved out of town. I don't know what became of her.
Personally, I think it would be cruel to force a person of that intelligence, of that situation, of that mind... to carry a child to term and then give birth, either vaginally or by ceasarean. She was under 13, although I am not sure of her exact age.

I agree that abortion methods are cruel, very cruel. Although in all honesty what else could you DO? If the baby is to die, how would you do it where it is humane? I don't want the cop-out answer, "don't do it". Hypothetically, if a situation occured where a baby, a fetus, whatever you feel better calling it needs to die - how would you be comfortable having it done?
I struggle with that question...
I have yet to define which side I am officially on...


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot*
I agree that abortion methods are cruel, very cruel. Although in all honesty what else could you DO? If the baby is to die, how would you do it where it is humane? I don't want the cop-out answer, "don't do it". Hypothetically, if a situation occured where a baby, a fetus, whatever you feel better calling it needs to die - how would you be comfortable having it done?
I struggle with that question...
I have yet to define which side I am officially on...

The same way you would someone out of the womb I suppose.

Take either of my 85yo great-grandmas whom I love dearly. Some might consider it humane to put in an IV and let them "slip away". I think it inbearably inhumane- who am I to say when their lives are over? I never think it's okay calling a situation where someone needs to die no matter their age, born or unborn.

Do you mean painless? Or do you mean a humane way to kill someone? Humane and ending life don't go hand-in-hand IMO.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot*
I agree that abortion methods are cruel, very cruel. Although in all honesty what else could you DO? If the baby is to die, how would you do it where it is humane? I don't want the cop-out answer, "don't do it". Hypothetically, if a situation occured where a baby, a fetus, whatever you feel better calling it needs to die - how would you be comfortable having it done?
I struggle with that question...
I have yet to define which side I am officially on...

Actually, people tried to introduce a bill that would mandate that the fetus receive pain medication during abortion(i'm not sure how they meant to administer it, whether to the mother -> placenta -> baby or infuse it into the amniotic sac so that it would be absorbed and anesthetize the baby).

Members of the pro-choice movement squashed it. Presumably, they refused to acknowledge that the fetus feels pain (as has been demonstrated scientifically) because that acknowledgement may lead people to question abortion. I was deeply saddened that they demonstrated more concern with dogma than with ending suffering.

The situations you listed were awful and tragic. I still don't think they justify ending a life. I wouldn't think that of a newborn, or a woman, or a black person, or a fetus. Two wrongs don't make a right, to be cliche.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
Actually, people tried to introduce a bill that would mandate that the fetus receive pain medication during abortion(i'm not sure how they meant to administer it, whether to the mother -> placenta -> baby or infuse it into the amniotic sac so that it would be absorbed and anesthetize the baby).

Members of the pro-choice movement squashed it. Presumably, they refused to acknowledge that the fetus feels pain (as has been demonstrated scientifically) because that acknowledgement may lead people to question abortion. I was deeply saddened that they demonstrated more concern with dogma than with ending suffering.

The situations you listed were awful and tragic. I still don't think they justify ending a life. I wouldn't think that of a newborn, or a woman, or a black person, or a fetus. Two wrongs don't make a right, to be cliche.

I understand your side, and I also know it is murder no matter what way you go about it (I suppose that makes me pro-life by default?...)
I don't know what I mean regarding it being humane. I understand that murder by definition is inhumane.
I support assisted suicide, I do not support capital punishment, perhaps my definition of 'humane' would be pain free and gentle (IE. euthanize). At least, 'gentle' in comparison to the abortion methods currently used, please don't twist.

The situations I posted weren't really to gain followers to my side, or to arouse dissent. I just wanted to show that I had situations on both sides, and I know both very well.
However, the situation with the quadrapalegic girl really disturbs me. As much as I flip-flop on abortion reasons, I would think it cruel to force her to carry a baby in her condition. Not only for the massive psychological trauma it could cause, but the physical as well... she was extremely tiny, weak and even a little malformed. I would imagine there are risks to her body and the health of the baby.


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