# Any other anti-behaviorism, but not CL mamas?



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Just curious







Anyone? I bet I can think of at least one or two








I imagine some UP followers would fit here?

Also, wondering if your days pretty much *look* cl?


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## mamatoliam (Oct 31, 2005)

Perhaps, although I am still trying to figure out all the nuances of CL. As I posted in the 'too gentle' thread I am wondering what paramaters, if any CL parents use to determine which behaviours they ask their dc's to participate in and which they never ask them to participate in and only model instead.

But yes our days look very CL in the aspect that I believe in my best parenting moments would never coerce my ds to do something but I am thinking I ask him to do more things than most CLers. Which then we do if he agrees or 'negotiate' until I can make it agreeable for him or vice versa.

And yes I agree with (perhaps even love?) most of what UP says!

Leah


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

What does CL mean?







:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

CL= consensual living (CL basically = no coersion. There's more to it though)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

CL = consentual living, which I won't even attempt to define because I will get it wrong!!

Anti-behaviorism but not CL definitely defines me. I just finished UP (Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn) and liked it very much.

A lot of what we do looks a lot like CL at times -- we do seek out a mutually agreeable solution if at all possible. I'm willing to change my mind if I can't come up with a good reason as to why, and I'm often willing to compromise. But, I just can't quite get my head around it. Maybe I'm thinking too much in the negative, or am not creative enough, but I do find that there are issues that I just can't do with CL (going to be would be our big one).

I can get my head around UP, and so that's where I'm at now.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I'm definitely UP, but I'm not sure if I'm CL. Our days definitely look CL. I want to be CL, but I don't know if we are or if we can be, because some days I feel like there's no consensus in our house, because DD and DH are getting what they want, but I'm not.







(I include my DH, because he pretty much does what he wants, while I worry about DD.) It's not very consensual when one party gets left out all the time.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I think this defines my philosophy although I don't have any kids yet. I too don't really understand CL, although I've never seen anyone use it/live it so maybe if I did, I would. It sounds a bit extreme to me (although again, I may be wrong) and I believe in balance in most things.

I LOVED Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, FWIW.

Kylix


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I think that's basically me. We do not use time outs, and we do not use punishments or bribes. There is an occasional well-considered "if...then" around here, but I consider them natural if...thens. ("If you don't get your PJs on, we won't have time for 3 stories before bed.")

I do consider myself GD, and hopefully becoming more so all the time. But I am not consensual. I consider the parents the leaders of the family. I will, as a very last resort, carry away a struggling toddler, change a protesting child's poopy diaper, or place a struggling child in a car. I have indeed felt that I HAD to do all those three things at various points in my life. CL mamas would argue that I didn't, I would argue that I did, and round and round we go.







:

However, yes, I do agree that most of our life probably "looks" consensual. I use all the same techniques, most heavily relying on Playful Parenting, which comes most naturally to me.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Am I one of the one or two?







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I will, as a very last resort, carry away a struggling toddler, change a protesting child's poopy diaper, or place a struggling child in a car.









:

Most of the time DS and I are able to compromise, but when we are at an impasse I will make a decision. I got into a lot of my philosophy on the "too gentle?" thread, so I won't belabor it here.

I'm not into time outs, punishments, or bribes either, so there goes the behaviorism...

Maybe we could start our own tribe...but what the heck would we call us?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

OK, editing because I was nak and could not type.

I'm definitely not CL - the more I read on the Yahoo group the more I realize my philosophical differences with it - BUT I find it a very useful paradigm to work from in many instances.

I take an eclectic approach to parenting philosophy, which is still mostly theoretical - my child is only 14 months old, and although we definitely have more things to think about than when she was younger (and more all the time), it's still relatively easy to find mutually agreeable solutions much of the time.

But I do change her diaper if it's poopy even if she resists, trying to make it as easy as possible for her and to distract her, of course. I really try VERY hard not to force the car seat, and this is where the CL concept has helped me - I think, "how much do we reallllly need to do this errand RIGHT NOW?" and often I realize that we don't need to do it right now at all, and we go do something else if she screams upon sight of the car. Other times we really do have to get in the car (and that's where CL goes out the window; I realize that from a CL point-of-view you don't 'have' to do anything) and I use all my tricks to help DD get into the carseat happily. Including giving her things like the phone or camera to hold that I don't usually give her to play with, etc.

And, I think that kids do thrive on a predictable routine, so in that sense I would like to be *less* flexible. I know that sounds weird, but since DD was born I have gone with the flow to the extreme from a "mainstream" point of view. This means that one day we have lunch at 11 and the next day at 3. One night DD goes to bed at 8 and the next at 9:30. It's really wearing on me to live this way and I think it's wearing on DD, too. I think she looks to me to provide more structure than I am giving her, and because I am afraid - yes I'm afraid - of her tears and upsetness, I do anything possible for her not to be upset even if it means total unpredictability.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm typing fast 'cause I'm going to have to run pretty soon...with a 14-month-old it's hard to really concentrate on posts while she's awake!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
nak

hey, me too - I just forgot to mention it


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I agree that reading about the CL way is helpful to me. I sometimes play, "How would I handle this if I were totally noncoercive?" just to help me think about a situation. Quite often that's helpful, but sometimes my brain just goes, "Nope, not this time."

Nora'sMama, we found that DD did really thrive on structure and schedule at your DD's age. I'm not necessarily that structured by nature--I eat and sleep at all different times, and I found it inconvenient to always be home for nap and bedtime...but in the end, we found she really did do better with it. We have found that at 2.5, she is now more able to delay naps or bedtime if necessary, and to eat a little more flexibly too, but we do still strive to have her in bed at the same time every night, more or less. We notice the difference if we don't.

(This is another way in which I am not CL--DD would probably stay up quite late without us gently enforcing the bedtime routine, but I am not prepared to deal with that. She is quite seriously a danger to herself when overtired.)


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## beckington (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
(This is another way in which I am not CL--DD would probably stay up quite late without us gently enforcing the bedtime routine, but I am not prepared to deal with that. She is quite seriously a danger to herself when overtired.)

I'm with you on that one - my ds is like a totally different person when overtired, one who is certainly not agreeable to any mutually agreeable solutions!







So we really try to make sure he gets enough sleep but we are struggling at the moment. He almost always wakes up 6-6.30am no matter what time he goes to bed. He seems to do well with 10 hours of sleep but it's turning into a struggle to get him to go to sleep! I realise this isn't about discipline but since you brought it up, I was wondering how you gently enforce bedtime, if you don't mind me asking?

I also find that while I will use coersion as a last resort, I don't often have to and the fact that I will doesn't make me try to avoid it any less, if that makes sense. I also really enjoying reading about CL because it challenges me to really think about what I'm doing and why. Today, for example, we had just left the mall and gotten into the car. It was raining so I just let ds jump in the back while I got the stroller etc into the trunk. He normally climbs straight into his carseat but lately has wanted to play on the other seat for a bit, whichis what he did today. I started off impatient because I was standing in the rain and just wanted him to get in the seat but thankfully quickly realised that attirtude wasn't going to get me anywhere, so I got in the front seat and read a magazine while he played. Normally after a couple of minutes he'll be ready to get in his seat. Not today. Then I smelt something - great, he'd done a poop! So my choices seemed to be to drag a resistant toddler through the mall to change his nappy or convince him to sit in the poopy nappy and change it at home. I personally didn't like either solution - ds hates to sit in a poopy nappy, normally won't, and I fully support that! - and going back into the mall, through the rain... ugh.. sounded like no fun. Anyhow, I asked ds what he wanted to do but really wasn't getting anywhere - he disputed the fact that he had even done a poop! I was so trying to approach this from a 'OK we have a problem, how should we fix it, ds?' perspective but what do you do when you can't even agree on the fact that there is a problem??! Anyhow, a new idea popped into my head - change his bum in the car! It wouldn't be easy - it's a small car, he's not a small boy, so the logistics would be difficult, but I certainly preferred it to dragging him into the mall so I suggested it. Instantly he was like 'yes! poop in my nappy, change me please, there, now mommy now!' - never seen anyone so excited to have their nappy changed!!







So we did it that way, he then got in his seat and off home we went, both of us happy. I was pretty pleased about the whole thing, especially my outlook on it - instead of seeing it as being 'forced' to change his nappy in the car and that he was 'making' it difficult for me, or getting annoyed about it, I just saw it as a way that made us both happy, we both agreed on it and it got the job done!

OK, that turned into a real ramble! Sorry! I'm off to bed now. Ds has just come and found me and informed me that he wants boobie in bed now. Hopefully that means bedtime will be peaceful?! But there's no way he's getting enough sleep tonight if he does his normal wake-up time. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I really enjoy sleeping in, why doesn't he?!


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Beckington - yeah, we have a pretty small car too, and diaper changes are sometimes rather - um - exciting (always that chance that baby, poopy diaper and soiled clothes will fall off the seat!) but we have done it many a time.

Loraxc - Can you tell me more about what kind of structure you had when your dd was around 15 months old? I feel kind of lost, for the first time since I became a parent. I kind of don't know what I should be doing with her all day long.

Example: her energy, inquisitiveness and understanding are taking off and things that used to be plenty stimulating for her - like sitting in the cart at the grocery store - are now very boring; she wants to get down and pull everything off the shelves! So shopping trips take twice as long and are many times as stressful...hard to be consensual when DD wants to hold every other product in Baby Depot. I tried, though.







I think I might have to figure out how to do shopping when my DH can take care of Nora. But then what do we do all day? I would be happy to do child-centered things all day but I'm not sure that's what's healthiest for her. But how to integrate her into other activities? How to have a routine when she simply doesn't seem to be hungry or sleepy at the same time every day, yet gets cranky if she isn't offered food or if I wait too long to try to put her down for a nap (which is a major activity!).

We used to have a pretty easy-going routine but now I feel that a) the everyday activities are boring for her and b) I am stressed out by all the mess she makes and I get very frustrated. I don't feel that I should be following her around all day cleaning up; I feel that I should be directing her activities more. But I don't really know what this looks like.

And back to the sleep thing, I have actually tried to just let her pick her sleep times. She has never actually gone to bed or a nap. She stays up indefinitely. And then cries. Is obviously unhappy and desperately tired. But still won't go to sleep of her own accord (i.e. lie down on the bed or ask to nurse and fall asleep nursing, etc.). She also won't go to sleep if I lay down on the bed with her when she is obviously tired. She needs to be either driven in the car, rocked and nursed (but this rarely works) or bounced in the Ergo carrier. She is a "sleep-fighter" if I ever saw one and she has been like that from Day 1, so I know it is nothing that I did. I feel defensive about it, though, 'cause it seems a lot of people think that if your kid doesn't fall into a sleep routine that there is something wrong with the parent!

So anyway, we do have our nap and sleep things that we do but theyoften take a long time and lately are not working as well...although the good thing is that she sleeps pretty much through the night once we get her down to sleep.

Augh, that was more than I meant to write! If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em, otherwise, it was just good to write about some of the things I've been thinking about


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I fit here I think. I love the idea of CL but I can't really get a grasp on using it completely in my daily life. I can't seem to let go of control enough to go entirely CL, but i think its a fabulous ideal.

heck every day is a struggle around here lately and I am lucky to be making it through the day without my head exploding. Tho today I am doubting myself as I seem to have a DD who is a wonderful, smart, independent, caring girl.... EXCEPT when it comes to caring about making messes and leaving them for others to clean up after. I am having a very hard day today







:

Anyway all of that to say that I am pretty sure this is where I fit in. We do not do punishments, tho I have admit to asking her to go to her room because I was frustrated tho she can always come back out and what not. I try to talk with her and give her real choices as much as possible, but if I have to go somewhere or we need to do something I will put DD in the car even tho she doesn't like it. I have had to carry my 5 year old out of a restaurant and go for a walk to calm her down because she was so over the top and overstimulated. I have decided that so far age 5 is the hardest of all LOL


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I agree that reading about the CL way is helpful to me. I sometimes play, "How would I handle this if I were totally noncoercive?" just to help me think about a situation. Quite often that's helpful, but sometimes my brain just goes, "Nope, not this time."

Wow loraxc, I'm just quoting you all over the place on this thread. ITA with this, I've really appreciated the CL thread if for nothing else, than being the impetus for me to be more flexible and creative.


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## amaliaday (Dec 10, 2005)

I love UP. Read it last summer and it really really clicked with me. DH just read it a couple weeks ago and has been trying to be more patient and put it into practice (HOORAY!!!) He was always on board with GD but it taking the extra step to actually listen and realize it is okay for him to change his mind. He is consciously trying to avoid behaviorist techniques. They might work well for the Dog Whisperer, but not long-term for children (can you tell how happy I am he gets it!!!)

I joined the CL Yahoo Group and am really enjoying some of the posts. I think CL is a good area to think about and explore but I also am not there all the way yet.

BUT some of it really resonates with me. One personal example that really sticks out in my head is about errands. When DS was smaller, maybe 12 mos???? We used to head out in the am and do lots of errands. Sometimes I would tell my girlfriend all the stops we had made.....bank, Whole Foods, thrift store, vehicle registration, park..... Her husband was at home with their child and wondered how I could get so much done!?!?!? Well, it was b/c I didn't "have" to do any of it. We were just having fun spending time with each other and being out. The errands didn't matter. They didn't "have" to be done. Her husband wasn't naturally approaching things from that angle. He had several IMPORTANT things to do and by gosh they were GOING to get done......

oops.ramble. But CL is very very interesting to me and I plan to explore it further.









(but I love love love UP too!)

ETA, my kids are 4, 1, and almost here.


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## beckington (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Beckington - yeah, we have a pretty small car too, and diaper changes are sometimes rather - um - exciting (always that chance that baby, poopy diaper and soiled clothes will fall off the seat!) but we have done it many a time.









Lots of fun! Try doing it with a 95cm tall 2.5 year old!







We only got a car a few months ago so it's not been a big issue for us, but we've certainly had nappy changes in some fun places. Life would be much easier for me if I could figure out how to change him standing up, or if he'd learn to use the potty!


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

nak...

I clicked on this thread not really sure what it was about







but as I read along I found myself







a lot so I guess I would fit in here!!









Quote:

I do consider myself GD, and hopefully becoming more so all the time. But I am not consensual. I consider the parents the leaders of the family. I will, as a very last resort, carry away a struggling toddler, change a protesting child's poopy diaper, or place a struggling child in a car. I have indeed felt that I HAD to do all those three things at various points in my life. CL mamas would argue that I didn't, I would argue that I did, and round and round we go.
























Quote:

I was pretty pleased about the whole thing, especially my outlook on it - instead of seeing it as being 'forced' to change his nappy in the car and that he was 'making' it difficult for me, or getting annoyed about it, I just saw it as a way that made us both happy, we both agreed on it and it got the job done!










Quote:

I really try VERY hard not to force the car seat, and this is where the CL concept has helped me - I think, "how much do we reallllly need to do this errand RIGHT NOW?" and often I realize that we don't need to do it right now at all, and we go do something else if she screams upon sight of the car. Other times we really do have to get in the car (and that's where CL goes out the window; I realize that from a CL point-of-view you don't 'have' to do anything) and I use all my tricks to help DD get into the carseat happily. Including giving her things like the phone or camera to hold that I don't usually give her to play with, etc.










Quote:

I think that's basically me. We do not use time outs, and we do not use punishments or bribes. There is an occasional well-considered "if...then" around here, but I consider them natural if...thens. ("If you don't get your PJs on, we won't have time for 3 stories before bed.")

















quoting and nodding are all i can manage while nak-ing but i'm totally digging this thread!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I guess I ought to post some specifics on my views. lol

I do not do punishments or rewards. I think behaviorism is a horrible way to "teach" kids. They are meant to learn through attachment, and because they are social creatures. I think that behaviorism undermines that innate sociality, and their desire to act in a socially acceptable manner (acceptable to the people they are around).
I don't praise as a way to manipulate behavior. Actually, I haven't found a situation yet that I thought called for praise, or where I used praise. I'm not opposed to sincere praise, if ds is honestly looking for my evaluation. But since he's not used to getting my evaluation in a judgemental type way, I guess he doesn't ever think he needs it








(don't worry though. He gets plenty of feedback, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't feel like what he does isn't "good enough") lol

I'm not CL in theory. (sorry, I know i've posted this a bunch recently). Just because I don't think that some coersion is necessarily harmful to a child or to attachment. But I don't think its the best way to deal with things (sometimes its the best we can do in the moment, but as we learn, we do better). I think kids learn better without coersion, they take more from each situation if they aren't forced any which way (Ime this is true).

Our daily lives would look cl, though. I don't strive to be a *CL parent* but I strive to make most/all situations consensual. (I don't know if that makes any sense. lol.) And I'm doing a pretty good job, if I do say so myself








I have the most cooperative, considerate 2 yo I could ever imagine









Anyways, I imagine that most anti-behaviorism mama's would be close to cl. You'd have to get away from certain views of kids to be able to feel good about living with them, without punishments and rewards. You'd have to put a lot of faith in them, and yourself.

Ok, I've blabbed enough. This is fun







Thanks all for replying


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I realise this isn't about discipline but since you brought it up, I was wondering how you gently enforce bedtime, if you don't mind me asking?

Quote:

And back to the sleep thing, I have actually tried to just let her pick her sleep times. She has never actually gone to bed or a nap. She stays up indefinitely. And then cries. Is obviously unhappy and desperately tired.
This book is a controversial mention since it endorses CIO







: , but I found Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child to be a big help with my DD. Not the CIO parts, but the info on sleep patterns and suggestions on routines. The No-Cry Sleep Solution was also helpful. We are very ritualistic around naptime and bedtime around here--almost bizarrely so, but it has been very helpful. It goes the same way every day and night and happens at the same time (give or take half an hour) every day. Most kids do have a fairly natural sleep rhythm that follows a basic common pattern, but sometimes it's hard to "find" it initially. I think the books suggest keeping records to help figure it out. Paying attention to all this has been a very worthwhile investment for us.

As I recall, 12-18 months was hard for us because we were not sure about one nap or two.

Gently enforcing bedtime--basically, DD just knows the routine. Dinner, then a specific bath routine, then 3 books, then milk (she still gets milk at bed), then teeth, then a little special "I love you more than..." routine we say to each other, then bed. We also make use of a kitchen timer for certain parts of the routine to help us along. (DD responds much better to a timer "ding" than to us saying "Time is up.") We do not worry about whether she is tired enough or not--we learned a long time ago that by the time she is visibly knackered, we are in trouble. It's much easier to get a somewhat-less-tired DD to bed and have her play and talk for a bit before she settles to sleep than to get wiredm overtired DD to bed. One thing that does make it easier, though, is that she puts herself to sleep now--we don't have to stay with her or anything.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

I see. This is perhaps more complicated for me than for some of the other mamas here. I spent many years in a relationship with an Ayn Rand Objectivist who did not believe in any kind of coercion.

In theory, this is one thing. In reality...it's something else, IMO. For example, my ex and his friends considered speed limits to be coercive on the grounds that they had not agreed to them in advance to the application of the laws. They considered all manner of law to be coercive for that matter.

I spent a lot of time on this type of issue back then, and while there are some aspects to that perspective that I can appreciate, in general I think it's unrealistic to believe that human relationships could-or should-be completely free from coercion. It's too much to expect to get the agreement of everyone in town regarding a school zone speed limit, for example.

I don't know how well my previous experiences prepare me to understand this POV, but at present, this is my take on a totally CL approach to life.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks, loraxc. Your post is very helpful. I have heard a lot about HSHHC elsewhere and I used the "two-hour rule" very successfully when DD was a baby, but now I'm kind of lost since we are indeed in that limbo between 1 and 2 naps. Today she didn't nap until 2 PM and had a great 2 hour nap, but often she really seems to need both a morning nap and an afternoon nap.

Delacroix, I think I am going to start a thread asking if the CL'ers will explain the difference between TCS, or an objectivist approach to parenting, and Consensual Living. I know they feel there is a big difference, but I must confess that I don't see it (after reading the old TCS threads). The commonality I see is that both TCS and CL claim to be applicable to ALL interactions, and I don't believe this is either possible or desirable. However, although "in practice" these two concepts seem to look the same, the language of CL does actually make sense to me, whereas the language of TCS/objectivism bugs the crap out of me







:...

It's funny, though, there are some great parents at MDC who are TCS'ers. So I know it *can* work. As can Consensual Living, I'm sure. I just don't think it's universally applicable. I tend to have a lot of distrust towards utopian philosophies of any sort; haven't found one yet that can truly explain the complexities of human interaction.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

We're definitely not CL, and I don't really agree with it as an ideal, so I guess this is the place for me. We don't really do punishment or rewards, at least in the sense of waiting until after he has done something and then treating him in a way that evaluates him for his actions. But I'm pretty sure that picking him up and taking him to a different room while he's kicking and screaming, because he really WANTS to continue hitting the TV with a back scratcher, counts as coercive. I would never take him away from that situation and then say, "Corbin, that's bad!" and punish him, but I *do* take him away forcibly and then try to calm him down, rather than trying to gently convince him to stop.

I do think it's very important to pick your battles. I will hold Corbin down to change a poopy diaper, because he will be crabby the whole time it's on him and the situation will just get worse and worse, whereas if I just grab him and change him, we're all done in two minutes and he's happy again. But if he wants to run around the living room tearing up paper and pulling laundry out of the basket and spilling crumbs on his clothes and the carpet ... hey, he's 1, he's supposed to run wild sometimes.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
I see. This is perhaps more complicated for me than for some of the other mamas here. I spent many years in a relationship with an Ayn Rand Objectivist who did not believe in any kind of coercion.

There used to be an Objectivist who posted around here, she wasn't CL, but pretty close, I think. I can't remember her name, though. Anyway, we got into some interesting discussions about consensual living.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

What is TSC?







:







:







:

(I'm not used to feeling so clueless and uninformed).


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
The commonality I see is that both TCS and CL claim to be applicable to ALL interactions, and I don't believe this is either possible or desirable. However, although "in practice" these two concepts seem to look the same, the language of CL does actually make sense to me, whereas the language of TCS/objectivism bugs the crap out of me







:...

It's funny, though, there are some great parents at MDC who are TCS'ers. So I know it *can* work. As can Consensual Living, I'm sure. I just don't think it's universally applicable. I tend to have a lot of distrust towards utopian philosophies of any sort; haven't found one yet that can truly explain the complexities of human interaction.


Wow. I just love your post. I agree completely. I sincerely appreciate the motiviations behind the belief systems, but they just seem so tremendously unrealistic and limited to me. Especially Objectivism. I have to admit to hating it at this point in my life.

It may sound crazy or even sexist, but I'm soooo disappointed that Objectivism was spawned by a woman. I guess I expect more from women than that. Of course, Ayn Rand never had children. Too bad. She'd have learned a great deal if she had, IMO.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
It's funny, though, there are some great parents at MDC who are TCS'ers. So I know it *can* work. As can Consensual Living, I'm sure. I just don't think it's universally applicable. I tend to have a lot of distrust towards utopian philosophies of any sort; haven't found one yet that can truly explain the complexities of human interaction.

Yeah, I have often noticed similarities between the attitudes of CLers and TCSers and fundamentalists. Not that that's a bad thing, it's just not for me. I also think that some APers tend to get a little dogmatic, though. I just don't think there's one universal answer, I guess.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Yeah, I have often noticed similarities between the attitudes of CLers and TCSers and fundamentalists. Not that that's a bad thing, it's just not for me. I also think that some APers tend to get a little dogmatic, though. I just don't think there's one universal answer, I guess.

This is a little off topic, but I had to respond because I've never heard anyone else echo my thoughts about this. It's a complaint I have about some the AP community - they can be very dogmatic! I am not an all or nothing person. I really like what I have seen from UP, but I am not going to follow it as a bible. Same with CL - I like some of what they have to say, but some things I think go to far, almost to the point of being ridiculous for our family. I find it difficult to dialogue with someone who is hell bent on one particular method being the perfect solution to everything for everyone.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I find it ironic that people feel that way....the reason I embrace the philosophy of consensual living is because I feel it offers an (almost) infinate amount of solutions to situations that arise. I don't think anything is perfect, but as far as "methods" go, one where everyone in almost every situation gets their needs and wants met through mutually agreeable solutions, I have to say, it's pretty darn close


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I don't mean to be crashing your party.







: I tried to just lurk but the Ayn Rand Objectivism comments piqued my interest too much!







: I would consider myself an objectivist and a relativist.







Contraditions can exist. Yes, having a child does change one's perception of an objective reality, imnsho. I considered myself a Randian Objectivist before child.

I consider myself both a moral and cognitive relativist; and that I practice objectivism. I believe that morality is inherent in life; it doesn't have to be defined and mandated by someone outside of the individual. I believe only the individual's perception of reality is "real" to the individual. "Perception makes it so" as a mentor of mine said some 30 years ago. However, in the consensual interaction with others, *I* believe it is most practical (according to my "Reality") for me to base our interactions on mutually agreeable definitions of "objective reality". And that any attempts to *force* an "objective reality" on anyone else is exactly what I desire to avoid, through pacifist methods, btw.

We could *agree* that *A=A*; but could we be certain? I believe that Truth is relative to the perception of the individual. TCSers don't. http://p075.ezboard.com/btcscommunity A challenging and fascinating book about relativism and the inseparability of the observer from the observation is Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintence.

There is a Tao saying 'The difference between "certain" and "perhaps" is not much after all'.

Pat


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Pat, that was an intense book.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Pat, that was an intense book.

Yes, it is one of my favorites. Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is the other one.









Pat


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Ooh, I'm sorry, I just did not like Atlas Shrugged at all! I just can't get down with the whole objectivist thing. (In fact, I'm about as anti-objectivist as it gets...







: ) But Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance affected me profoundly when I read it. I was 17 and I kind of can't believe it's been that long. It's on my shelf, maybe I should read it again.

I guess I don't really have a life philosophy, just some form of humanism, I guess, tinged with Buddhism? Anyway, it's a little bit OT, anyway, but interesting side discussion.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I find it ironic that people feel that way....the reason I embrace the philosophy of consensual living is because I feel it offers an (almost) infinate amount of solutions to situations that arise. I don't think anything is perfect, but as far as "methods" go, one where everyone in almost every situation gets their needs and wants met through mutually agreeable solutions, I have to say, it's pretty darn close









The reason why I'm not totally on board with CL has something to do with what it takes to always find a mutually agreeable solution. I don't have it entirely clear even in my own head, because I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that I am the authority and my kids should always do what I tell them. But to go to extreme lengths to get a child happy about getting in their car seat, for example, doesn't sit well with me. In certain situations, I do have expectations about how I want my child to act, and I don't see that as a negative thing. Since mutual consent at all times is part of CL, CL is not the most perfect solution for me. Yet like many posters on this thread have mentioned, much of our daily life looks a lot like CL in that I do respect my child's feelings and we do work together to find solutions that everyone is happy with.

Hmm, I feel like I'm being clear as mud!







:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

But to go to extreme lengths to get a child happy about getting in their car seat, for example, doesn't sit well with me.
I don't know, I don't believe CL as I understand it and practice it means that everyone is always happy....I mean, the goal is mutually agreeable solutions, and in a perfect world it would be mutually ecstatic solutions







but I think there is a place that can live between happy and not happy, which is an active choice to just *be*. I know that sounds all ~~~deep~~~ but I mean, there have been times where my daughter didn't jump in her carseat with glee, but wasn't protesting either, she just was in agreement.

I don't know if that makes sense either -- but I guess I kind of assumed from your post (and please forgive me in advance if I am wrong) that you beleive CL means that everyone _always_ gets _everything_ they want and need _exactly_ when they want it and all progress stops until that happens. Well, I imagine in most families people would be waiting a long time to do stuff if that is the case









Yes, it is wonderful when all parties are in agreement and are genuinely happy inside about it.. and that happens often here... but sometimes one of us (mostly my husband or myself as our daughter is still very young but I see glimmers of it already) makes an active choice to be part of creating a mutually agreeable solution that may not have been our *first* choice, but wasn't out *last* choice.... it doesn't make us neccessarily *happy* in that moment, but we aren't sad or angry or resentful, but we are still agreeable... we are just ~~~being~~~

Okay if your post was clear as mud, I don't even wanna know what this is







I hope someone gets what I mean though...


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I am not behaviorist but I am not CL, either. My intent and practice is to work with my my dc to find mutually agreeable solutions when there is conflict, but there are times when I use coercion. I would say I am "very low coercion" on a day to day basis. My ds1 does not "obey" and I do not expect him to. I very very very rarely use physical coercion--but there are many more subtle ways in which one can coerce, or just not find a way to not even bring the child's wants into the picture. I think this is where I most differ from the CL philosophy in practice, from my reading here and at the yahoo group---it is much more than just a matter of not forcing an unwilling child into a carseat.









For example, I would consider whether it was a good time for my child to have a sibling, but I would not ask if it would be okay with them if we had another baby. DH and I would consider the needs and wishes of our children before changing jobs or moving to another city, but we would not ask our child if it would be okay with him to take the new job. We have a few house rules that allow me (and to some extent, them) greater peace in my home, which translates to a happier and more patient mom. The rules are not followed some times, there is no punishment for not following them, but they are stated nevertheless--and I did not ask the dc for input on these rules. As they get older, I expect them to gradually have more and more input into the way the household is run.

I am also far from a moral relativist--my religion kind of precludes that.









And finally, I think the thing that I worry about with CL, is that always looking for mutually agreeable solutions, is putting too much responsibility on younger children, to consider the parent's needs. I could be misunderstanding this aspect of how CL view things, though. I guess I see that as the parent, everything is not always going to be completely agreeable on my part. I think there are plenty of times where the needs of my children trump my own, and *that is part of being a parent*. I may not feel like taking the kids to the park when it's hot outside. But, they really want to go, and as their mom, I know it is something they want/need. So, we go. I might not always feel like reading the same book 12 times in a row--but I see that my toddler really wants to, and it is more important to him than it is to me, so I do it. I am not meaning to imply that I sacrifice a lot or feel resentful--I don't. But I see the parent-child relationship as a lot more giving on the parent end, than the child's. Mostly I want to do the giving, so it is agreeable to me--but to me being the parent means some times giving that extra even when I am tired, or just don't feel like it. I am responsible for tending to myself and getting my own needs met--it is important to me that my young children not feel responsible for helping meet my needs.

Okay, that got sort of long winded.







I know this is not a CL debate thread, this is just the way I see things for myself. I don't like to box myself in with a label and don't "follow" any parenting philosophy, but I guess the ideas in the UP book are what resonate with me the best.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I think one thing about CL, is that it *doesn't* mean that everyone gets what they want all the time. Because it is quite feasible to think of a child *consenting* to NOT get his way. Or an adult.

I've seen this in ds, and my best friend has 2 kids, and they have done similarly.

Just to add more mud. lol

It's really interesting, the different philosophies just in this little group. I can't quite put my finger on my reasoning behind NOT being CL in theory.

Pat, I try sooooo hard to understand what you write. But I am sadly lacking there. lol. Some days I think I just haven't had enough coffee hehehe.
One of these days I'll get the ideas of objectivist, relativist, etc. I've read, but it went WAYYY over my head. So, perhaps it just wasn't my time.
I love what you write, because it always makes me think. And you really have had a huge influence on me, and I appreciate that.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

It's really interesting, the different philosophies just in this little group. I can't quite put my finger on my reasoning behind NOT being CL in theory.
Exactly. I can't even say exactly what it is that doesn't sit well with me, but there is just something that doesn't.

I guess it's because, like SlightlyCrunchy said, there are times when I will use coercion, and I think it's okay. If a child doesn't want to leave a playdate, for example. I'll always give it a go to try to find an agreeable solution for everyone involved, but I am not one of those parents who will sit around for 1/2 an hour negotiating with a tired 5yo. I have and I will pick up the child and carry them out to the car. This doesn't happen often, but it sometimes does and I feel okay about it. The first thing CL adovocates would say would probably be along the lines of making sure the child wasn't tired to avoid the situation altogether. And I sure do like the sound of that, and as soon as someone can figure out how to do that for me I am all ears! CL sounds like one of those "in a perfect world" kind of philosphies, and I don't know about you all, but I don't live in a perfect world.

I have been following a lot of the CL discussion, both here and on the Yahoo Group, and I just don't agree with some of it. A kid not wanting to go to the grocery store: Parents are supposed to schedule times when someone else can watch the kids, go when dh is home, make it fun, etc. And again, while we already naturally live our lives this way, I feel strongly that sometimes kids need to go the store whether they feel okay about it or not. You know, I hate to clean the toilet. Really hate it. And short of hiring a cleaning person that we can't afford, I haven't figured out a way to make myself feel good about it. But I do it, because having a clean toilet is part of having a harmonious household (at least for us!). It's not about being a martyr or sacrificing myself. It's about sometimes you just need to do things you don't really need to do for the benefit of the family as a whole.

I think kids should be respected, but I think it is too much a pressure to put kids in control of too many things. I have seen children whose parents go to great lengths to make sure that they are okay and happy with every little thing, and honestly I think it is unsettling for them. The natural order of our species is for the adults to be in charge. I think this can be done in a sensitive, respectful, and accomodating way, but ultimately dh and I are in charge. And it is somewhere in here that CL loses me.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I think kids should be respected, but I think it is too much a pressure to put kids in control of too many things.

I agree with that.
I wouldn't say that I dislike CL. I'm sure that most of those who practice CL are pretty aware of how their children respond to however much responsibility they have. And I think that there are a ton of people who AREN'T CL, who give their kids too much responsibility. (esp in the form of manipulative choices).
I personally, am opposed to making kids make choices that they don't show interest in making, of their own volition. I think its more responsibility than they want. So, I'd not ask ds what color cup he wants. Unless he has showed that there is a good chance he WILL care about his cup color, and he wants to have that choice. In which case, he is ready for it.

But what you said, might be part of the reason that I am comfortable NOT being CL. It has to do with the natural order, or something. I still can't quite form words for what I'm thinking.
Though the other part of me says that the "natural order" involves parents being an authority, and kids know that, and experience it. And it doesn't ever have to be enforced. Hmmm....

lol


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

This from the "About MDC" link really sums up how I feel:

At

Quote:

Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy*
For example, I would consider whether it was a good time for my child to have a sibling, but I would not ask if it would be okay with them if we had another baby. DH and I would consider the needs and wishes of our children before changing jobs or moving to another city, but we would not ask our child if it would be okay with him to take the new job.

This is a good point, Slightly Crunchy. We recently moved, just a couple of miles, to a home that we had owned for a few years but had rented out. We were renovating the home we were living in, and it was not a very fun house for kids. It was on a busy corner, there was no backyard, and the renovating was making both my dh and I nervous about lead-based paint and other toxins that we were living with. Plus we owe about $100,000 more on the "project" house than the house we moved into. The house we moved into is one block from a park on a very quiet street with a huge, safe backyard. Dh and I felt pretty sure our kids would be much happier here. And, so far, I think they are.

However, when we told our dd we were going to move, she protested. She didn't want to, she was scared, she liked her room, she liked the neighborhood, etc. We all talked a lot about this. I didn't try to talk her into liking our new house. I didn't try to talk her out of not wanting to move. But I certainly did not present the option of not moving, because it wasn't mutually agreeable to her. And, as I understand it, if we were a CL family, I should have.

This just seems terribly impractical to me. This is why I think that CLers could be dogmatic. I assume that in this situation they would put the ideal of finding a mutually agreeable solution above the choice that they felt was the most financially wise and beneficial for the family, and in our case it would not have worked out very well. I mean, it seems like unless you absolutely have all your ducks in a row before you have kids, you're going to be subject to the whims of a preschooler. Am I wrong?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I mean, it seems like unless you absolutely have all your ducks in a row before you have kids, you're going to be subject to the whims of a preschooler. Am I wrong?

I am reluctant to butt my nose into this thread, as I am probably labled a "CLer". Although, I choose to live consensually with others, I hadn't ever considered myself a "CLer". This appears to be a new term created on the GD forum to identify with or move away from some others.







But, regarding specific issues related to living consensually with which others have questions: moving, new jobs, new houses, siblings, family finances, etc. On a separate thread, I would be interested in discussing these from a consensual process of involvement in the decision by those who are affected by the decision. The decisions that affect the members in our family do not reside with the parent or the preschooler.









Pat


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beckington*
I also really enjoying reading about CL because it challenges me to really think about what I'm doing and why.

Yes, I agree -- I'm not 'above' using coercion at times, but I do try to use it as a last resort. And it's very useful to me to have other people point out other possibilities. I've learned to think differently from people who are strongly arguing for CL, so it's probably good for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
Just because I don't think that some coersion is necessarily harmful to a child or to attachment. But I don't think its the best way to deal with things (sometimes its the best we can do in the moment, but as we learn, we do better). I think kids learn better without coersion, they take more from each situation if they aren't forced any which way (Ime this is true).

Exactly!!! If it's a choice between coersion and me completely losing it (which I've been known to do), coersion looks like the lesser of two evils. And I have a hard time believing that if 98% of our lives are not coercive, that 2% that are, when we are both overtired/overhungry/overwhelmed of some sort is going to fundamentally affect my child's development.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
But I certainly did not present the option of not moving, because it wasn't mutually agreeable to her. And, as I understand it, if we were a CL family, I should have.

I shouldn't be butting in either, probably. But I want to clarify a little bit...

I certainly consider how these things will affect DS, as I'm sure anyone here would/does. My thrust in our recent move was to help DS process his feelings about it. He was remarkably positive after the move, even though he didn't like the idea until it happened. When he asked about the old place, we talked about the new people who are now living in the old condo. And that our things were not there anymore. We actually went and visited it so that DS could see how it had changed, and he was fascinated. He was interested that other people had once lived here and now it was our turn.

I wouldn't consider that DS would make the decision about whether we move, or present not moving as an option. But helping him see the benefits and to process any conflicting feelings is very important to me. I see that as different that convincing him he really likes it, or that he wasn't conflicted about it. For DS, just talking about the old place and once visiting it, has been sufficient to process the change and he has surprised me at how happily he's taken to the new house.

I'll stop butting in...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I'll stop butting in...









Don't! At least not on my account.

Or maybe we should start a thread for those of us who want to know/understand CL better but don't think we'll ever get there?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
Don't! At least not on my account.

Or maybe we should start a thread for those of us who want to know/understand CL better but don't think we'll ever get there?

We were "evicted" here http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985
(Just joking, in case somebody takes the "evicted" thing too seriously)


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Boy I am really going to get kicked out of the consensual living club for this one







but I wouldn't leave moving or not up to our daughter (completely). I don't know as that would ever be the case though, as I am an *unmet need* person, as in, I feel if she were that opposed to moving, there is something I am probably not addressing or helping her feel secure about. Is she afraid of the location? We could visit and show her all the fun places. Does she REALLY love her room and would miss it? I would assure her that her new room could be decorated any way she liked, even EXACTLY like her old room if she wanted. We would take pics for reference and set the new room up exactly the same (she co-sleeps now but I mean if she were in her own room by then)...does she think she will never see her friends again? We would take every measure to keep in touch, brainstorm fun ways to keep in touch (letters/homemade postcards/visits (if we lived close enough)/email/IM/video conferences.... is it that she loves going to ____ and thinks they may not have that where we are moving? Seek out ____ or some place very similar to ____ she is agreeable to. School probably won't be an issue as we are planning on unschooling....
....but at the end of the day, I have to say honestly if we tried in every single way to meet any unmet needs/concerns, and offered a million and one possible solutions to those concers which were agreeable to her and she STILL said --- That's wonderful but I don't want to move ----

We would still probably move.

Go ahead, take away my membership card


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I have to say honestly if we tried in every single way to meet any unmet needs/concerns, and offered a million and one possible solutions to those concers which were agreeable to her and she STILL said --- That's wonderful but I don't want to move ----

We would still probably move.

Go ahead, take away my membership card









Revoked. You're one of "us" now....mwahahahahaha.....


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:



Quote:

Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I have to say honestly if we tried in every single way to meet any unmet needs/concerns, and offered a million and one possible solutions to those concers which were agreeable to her and she STILL said --- That's wonderful but I don't want to move ----

We would still probably move.

Go ahead, take away my membership card

Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
Revoked. You're one of "us" now....mwahahahahaha.....
lmao


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well the reason I feel okay with saying that is because I don't think it would happen (about the moving, I am sure my CL card is in fact, revoked







)

I really believe our daughter wants to work with us, that she wants to be where the family is (I wouldn't be manipulative about it though), I don't believe she would ever just say she didn't want to move out of defiance or something. We strive to model a low attachment to material things, so if she said she didn't want to move because she just couldn't part with our house, I would have a feeling that it had to do with the feelings the house evoked in her, or the smell, or warmth, etc (an unmet need or fear) ... but hey, if it were JUST THE HOUSE and NOTHING ELSE and despite trying and addressing every.thing.in.the.universe. and she still said "don't wanna"....we probably still would. (I don't think that would be the case though but ya never know).

I'm totally okay with that, and if one hypothetical scenario which may or may not ever happen kicks me out of the CL *club*, I think I'll live


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I am reluctant to butt my nose into this thread, as I am probably labled a "CLer". Although, I choose to live consensually with others, I hadn't ever considered myself a "CLer". This appears to be a new term created on the GD forum to identify with or move away from some others.









I don't think it's to move away from others at all, at least it's not for me...as others have mentioned, there are many of us who really enjoy and value the consensual mamas' input here even if we don't always agree with it; there is *something* about the CL idea/concept/practice that doesn't completely sit right with us, for one reason or another (which some of us have gotten into in this or other threads)...and I think this thread, and other recent ones, are helping a lot of us flesh out our own ideas about life and parenting, and it's nice to be able to think these things through by kind of identifying certain practices and ideas as consensual or not. Reading the more consensual mamas' opinions and ideas has been very helpful to me in recent months, in a very meaningful way.

At least, that's what I'm getting from all of this.....









Plus, we all love our acronyms and abbreviations here, don't we?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

: CC!!!

I think that there is a thing about the place where one feels the family connection.

I see the need as this: shelter, warmth, family/clan, connection, memory, etc... I see the desire to stay in a particular place as a manifestation of fear that one of the needs will be lost or ignored. That's where the helping them process the feelings about change comes in.

I think you get to keep your card.









In my case, I needed a place with parking on the same level as the living area. In our condo, my injured hip was unable to keep carrying him and stuff up and down icy stairs. Mama was not getting out as much as needed b/c I couldn't. DS can't possibly understand all that. So we definitely consider his wishes and feelings, including the need for a happy mama who gets things done - and takes kid to fun places like the park.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

After posting earlier on this thread, I started to feel concerned that this thread was becoming the "why I don't agree with CL thread".

I am not trying to move away from others. I find the discussions about the subtleties of relationships so fascinating, and for me, exploring an idea I am curious about helps me clarify my own thinking, or in some cases, rearrange it a little.









I would have never heard of _CLers_







if it weren't for some posters here frequently identifying themselves as such. But of course there is no perfect label for anyone, even though some labels might fit an individual better than others.

Scubamama, I think threads like these are a testimony to how intriguing the idea of living consensually has become around here.







Really, you ladies (here and at the yahoo group) are quite the eloquent bunch. But, I think I get your post. I do not call myself a "PDer" or "AP" or anything else really (just an example as I really don't like the term PD anyway as IMO some writers who call themselves PD use punitive measures).

So. We have people who try to live consensually, and those who parent gently and don't punish but think that the parent is ultimately in charge. There is quite a spectrum. Can we all coexist peacefully on the GD board at MDC--without calling each other "too permissive" or "authoritarian" or calling attention to the age or number of another's children?







:







: I am going to do my best.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
This appears to be a new term created on the GD forum to identify with or move away from some others.









I think that humans like labels. Well, in our society we do, anyways. My dp hates them. He pretty much will automatically disagree with any theory that has a label. No, not really. But he refuses to identify himself as AP or GD or CL or anything. Not because he disagrees with the concept, just because he hates labels. lol.
I on the other hand, I very much label myself GD. I also label myself anti-behaviorism. I like it, and I like that I have a short phrase to identify my thoughts with. I strive to fulfill those labels, because its what is right to me. CL (the label) is just that- its a way to just know what a person is about. I'm actually more likely to really like the advice from the CL mama's here, than a lot of others (some others I really love what they say







). But not because they are labeled CL. I guess I do identify moreso with CL mama's than with punitive mama's, but the label doesn't have anything to do with that.

I think the difference maybe between me and dp is that dp IS those things, and was naturally. Without reading. Sure, my reading has helped solidify some of those ideas for him, and he's adjusted a few things, but he largely was AP and GD without ever knowing that those things existed.
I was not. I wasn't AP until I read The Baby Book (while I was pg). I wasn't GD until I read, um, every book under the sun on it. lol. Same with anti-behaviorism. So I guess I kinda *need* those labels, because I wouldn't be what I am without them.
I don't know, I may have been AP. But I wouldn't have been comfortable with it. I would have felt all the mainstream crap that's out there. GD? Maybe, mostly. But my mom was ok for spanking in dangerous situations, and I bet I would have been too. Anti- behaviorism? nope. It was a HUGE revelation for me.

Anyways, I guess that didn't really address what you said. lol. But I tried


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

I wish I fully understood what all of these classifications meant. I think that I belong here , but not sure. Pretty sure though.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I do agree that humans have a need for order (some more than others







)...and that prob. is where the labeling comes into play. For me, personally, I don't care for labels; I find them limiting. That doesn't mean that ideally, I would like all of my interactions w/my family to be non-coercive and non-punitive. I strive for this. BUT, big but here, I have found, IME, that when I've stuck to a particular dogma, approach, whatever the word is that is escaping me, when I screw up, I am SO extremely hard on myself. This is my personal issue. I've found it much easier to have goals in mind (say that everyone's needs are taken into serious and loving consideration and yet, I am comfortable making a decision that I feel is in everyone's (all five family members') best interest. Best is subjective, of course. That's why I hang out here...to learn and share ideas...and not just labels


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
I strive for this. BUT, big but here, I have found, IME, that when I've stuck to a particular dogma, approach, whatever the word is that is escaping me, when I screw up, I am SO extremely hard on myself. This is my personal issue.









I believe you are looking for "ideology". That is why I don't like the "CLer" label. I believe that life is a process, a journey of interacting based upon my own perception of "best" for myself, not an adherence to some external mandate for my behavior. That seems so disconnected from my own inner voice and self-awareness. And for me, I don't believe anyone else could determine "best" for me, so my autonomy seems the natural progression of that process of living *my* life. When I am not trying to *follow* an ideology or mandate of another, there is no "screw up" against which to judge myself. I just believe that my actions met my needs at that time, and that justification or judgement isn't the realm of another over my life choices or actions. I do seek understanding of how my actions affect others and desire to honor other's autonomy, as I desire mine to be honored. It has been (and still is) quite a journey to give myself the self-acceptance and trust that I did not receive in childhood.

And I just extend the same trust to our son's self-awareness and self-determination. Not sure that is an ideology. I consider it a process, a choice. I think self-judgement is learned from our culture of judging others; and from experiencing others determining "what is best" for us throughout childhood which discounts our own self-knowing, imo.

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I shouldn't be butting in either, probably. But I want to clarify a little bit...

I certainly consider how these things will affect DS, as I'm sure anyone here would/does. My thrust in our recent move was to help DS process his feelings about it. He was remarkably positive after the move, even though he didn't like the idea until it happened. When he asked about the old place, we talked about the new people who are now living in the old condo. And that our things were not there anymore. We actually went and visited it so that DS could see how it had changed, and he was fascinated. He was interested that other people had once lived here and now it was our turn.

I wouldn't consider that DS would make the decision about whether we move, or present not moving as an option. But helping him see the benefits and to process any conflicting feelings is very important to me. I see that as different that convincing him he really likes it, or that he wasn't conflicted about it. For DS, just talking about the old place and once visiting it, has been sufficient to process the change and he has surprised me at how happily he's taken to the new house.

I'll stop butting in...









You're not butting in at all! That was a great post, and that was also very similar to how we handled it. I made a concerted effort not to say anything that would try to talk dd into loving her new house, especially since I think she would feel pressured to stuff her scared feelings. My MIL, who helped us move, tried that a couple of times, but I think I intervened every time.

We did talk about the benefits of the new house, in a casual way, and we spent time over here for a few weeks before we moved, since we were cleaning and getting things ready. And now, since we're still renovating the old house, we go over occasionally and look at what's happened, what the plumber did, where Daddy built some new walls, etc.

And I agree with Captain Crunchy about an unmet need, to an extent. I think there were unmet needs, but in the end she met them herself, and that was the only way it could happen. She was just unsure, a little frightened of what would happen. I could reassure her until the cows came home, but in the end it was something she had to discover for herself, and I think my reassurance would not have comforted her, but just pressured her. I think, for once, dh and I got it right by just trying to keep the transition calm and smooth, respected her sleep schedule, and stayed out of her way. She seems to have adjusted VERY WELL, and is loving life here. Me too!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Coming in late about the *labeling*. I label myself certain ways (vegetarian, feminist, NFL) both because I am confident in what I believe, and because I am lazy. The confidence comes in because I have an expectation that *most* people somewhat know what I mean when I say *vegetarian* or *feminist* and that the issue is theirs if they think a feminist hates men or a vegetarian eats fish...









Secondly, I am lazy sometimes







In some things, I just want to type two or three words that encompass a philosophy which is _most similar_ to what I believe without going into a 10 paragraph diatribe about it. If people want to know more about a certain *label* I may attribute to something which most closely resembles what I believe or think, I am happy to elaborate.


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