# how often do you hear "my dc LOVES meat"



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

okay, this phrase has been bothering me lately. I hear it so often and always WANT (but don't--- because I know that most meat-eaters will not GET that it's about more than the taste of meat and their kids liking it for that reason!!) to respond with something like "... they LOVE eating dead animals? Really? Do they know how it died, what it looked like while it was dying, etc etc etc..." I doubt the majority of kids who are numbed into eating meat (not told the truth about it) would make the same decision to eat it if they could understand the "whats and wheres" of meat.

just venting... but really... is there a child out there that REALLY LOVES "MEAT"? okay, going to take this statement back a bit... as my own sister eats meat readily and we grew up on in same small cattle farm family... she hunted w/ my father, etc. Of course, that said... she eats meat. But only chicken or burgers or nuggets (something w/o veins and that doesn't resemble meat...).

Mostly, I guess the point of this post/rant is that kids are not told what meat is. How it's made, etc. because of the parents other agendas. Because it's WAY easier to learn to NOT feel for the food in that way. It's a learned behavior to "not think about it" (as many meat eaters will tell me when I ask HOW they can eat it if the DO understand it)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Do you really want people to answer this?

ETA: I'm not trying to be a smart alec, but this showed up in my new posts and I don't get the point. Do you really want input from "carni's" or do you just want to a place to put people down?


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

honestly?
my son loves meat. but, then, he also loves cat puke. he's eaten both with gusto.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
honestly?
my son loves meat. but, then, he also loves cat puke. he's eaten both with gusto.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

i assume your posting this from my post about the elk since you posted this not even 3 minutes after you replied to my post.

in a nutshell, yes my 3 y/o loves meat. why not? he doesnt haave to have the same likes and dislikes as me. he gets 3 vegetable/grain dishes and 1 meat dish at dinners and he always eats the meat first because he loves it (his words).


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 









what can i say? apparently the boy ain't picky.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
what can i say? apparently the boy ain't picky.









My daughter ate dog poop once, so I'm definitely laughing _with_ you and not _at_ you.







:


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
My daughter ate dog poop once, so I'm definitely laughing _with_ you and not _at_ you.







:

oh, i know.








the only reason my kids haven't eaten cat poop is because the litterbox is gated off. otherwise, i presume m would find it to be a FINE buffet!


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Well, I can't say that my children love meat.

Probably because I've never fed them any meat.


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

My older dd could take it or leave it (and often she leaves it!) My 16 month old does seem to love it though, she will eat the meat first when given different types of food


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## mama_tigress (May 19, 2006)

Sure. I've known kids who grew up on farms, participated in killing the animals themselves, and still love meat. It's pretty natural, considering that humans are biologically omnivores. Independent of how you feel about eating animals, it's hard to deny that there are people who love meat even when they know exactly where it comes from.


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## scoobers (Jun 24, 2005)

Children, especially small children, don't really connect the product with the source. Why would they? There's not much about a nugget to suggest it came from a chicken...I mean what part of the chicken is a nugget? (Don't answer that...I don't really want to know.) What about a hamburger would suggest a cow? What about a hot dog suggests, uh...what are hot dogs...pig snouts and misc parts?

I've heard of lot's of children when they finally do connect the dots deciding on their own that they don't want to eat meat.

I think that's a separarate issue from how it tastes and that's I think what people are talking about when they say their child loves meat.


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

I'm a vegetarian (since the age of 12) but decided that it was my daughter's choice at a later date whether or not to eat meat, once she knew where it came from and had an appreciation for all that means.

And she loves meat.

And you know what, it was the first solid food she actually took a liking to (at 14 months or so).

What can I say? I happen to be a vegetarian because I personally am uncomfortable with the idea of where meat comes from (I couldn't kill an animal, myself), not for health reasons or because I think it is, in all cases, "wrong" to eat meat, otherwise I wouldn't have fed it to her...


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## midwifetx (Mar 16, 2005)

I have two meat eaters and two Veggies. They are random. My meat eaters are my 9yods and my 4yodd. My Veggies are my 11yodd (her choice based on reading about vegetarianism) and my 6yodd who has never liked the taste of it.


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

you know, I eat meat and my son hates meat! LOL. I never hear "my dc loves meat" either. I think it's just something people say to vegetarians....ok, I do know kids who like meat, but it's not something people go around talking about, kwim?

as a sorta connected thing, my ds who hates all meat says something "tastes like chicken" when he thinks it's gross! It's so funny to me because a lot of people use that phrase to describe things they like.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Do you really want people to answer this?

ETA: I'm not trying to be a smart alec, but this showed up in my new posts and I don't get the point. Do you really want input from "carni's" or do you just want to a place to put people down?

posted in vegetarian/vegan... hoping for some other vegies to respond. No, I really don't need to hear from carni's.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Dh and I have been vegetarian for about 16 years and about a year ago decided to drop the label and give ourselves the freedom to eat whatever we want. It took about a year, but recently we had a fish dinner for the first time. Dh and I thought it was OK, would eat again under the right circumstances but we don't crave it or care if we eat it again, but my almost 3 yo dd (who had never had any sort of meat before) was totally














about it. A greedy little piglet for it, ate all of her small portion and then begged for more from us.

I dunno. Some kids love the taste of meat, just like some people do. The politics/ethics behind it is something else entirely, imo, and personally I wouldn't expect my child to deal with that at 3yo. the ethics of it are my responsibility, not hers.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scoobers* 
Children, especially small children, don't really connect the product with the source. Why would they? There's not much about a nugget to suggest it came from a chicken...I mean what part of the chicken is a nugget? (Don't answer that...I don't really want to know.) What about a hamburger would suggest a cow? What about a hot dog suggests, uh...what are hot dogs...pig snouts and misc parts?

I've heard of lot's of children when they finally do connect the dots deciding on their own that they don't want to eat meat.

I think that's a separarate issue from how it tastes and that's I think what people are talking about when they say their child loves meat.

My kids know exactly where the meant comes from. They are with us when we go hunt it. Or if we buy grass fed beef than they know its cow.

As for chicken nuggets, those are IMO processed garbage and the thought of them makes me want to uke

I grew up helping butcher meat, chicken, cow, goat, deer, bear. I thoroughly love the taste of meat.


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## appifanie (Jul 11, 2006)

eda - i'm a vegan, i'm here to help!









i'm of the opinion that if kids really knew where meat came from then *most* of them wouldn't like it. there are, i'm sure, some who like it anyway but i try not to think about that because honestly, it makes me sad.

also, i think that a lot of parents prolly sugarcoat the truth when they tell their kids about where meat comes from. i mean . . . are they told that most animals live horrid, cramped confined lives and are painfully and inefficiently slaughtered? noooo . . . kids are prolly told the animals live happily in the sunshine on some happy farm and when they die then people eat them.

this is actually a sort of sensitive subject for me because i was the one who told my 9 year old dss where what he eats comes from - he had no idea burgers were cows or anything.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

My 16 year old loves burgers - so yes I guess he does love meat. It would be his first choice for a meal. He knows where it comes from, he knows why I'm veg and he still loves it. I don't hold it against him.


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## appifanie (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
My 16 year old loves burgers - so yes I guess he does love meat. It would be his first choice for a meal. He knows where it comes from, he knows why I'm veg and he still loves it. I don't hold it against him.









16 is old enough to know and understand though, so i think that's a separate issue (it is for me anyway). he knows, he gets it, he can research himself if he cares. i don't hold it against my hubby that he eats meat either.


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

My sister has said that her son loves meat. There are no vegetarians in that family. Her son is 18 months old.

We're sort of "meat lite" in our household. DH has no intention of giving it up, so when we go out, he often orders meat (and usually beef *sigh*). I avoid beef/pork but sometimes eat poultry or fish. DS (21 mos) will sometimes eat chicken or fish but I would hardly say that he loves it. He often passes it up and probably wouldn't care if we never ate it again.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?
Second of all, I agree with the original poster. Dont you think that children should know what they are eating? I think they should know they are eating a dead animal and exactly which species. Otherwise the animal is just a thing, or just food on the plate. They are living things!


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?

Well, speaking for myself...I saw a thread that interested me, and I contributed. Is there a problem with that? It's not like I'm promoting an omnivorous lifestyle.







I have been on-again off-again vegetarian for a while, and the subject interests me.


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
Second of all, I agree with the original poster. Dont you think that children should know what they are eating? I think they should know they are eating a dead animal and exactly which species. Otherwise the animal is just a thing, or just food on the plate. They are living things!

Well my dd is 2 years old and has a vague idea of where meat comes from. Cows become steak. Chickens become chicken. I'm sure she will ask more about it, the older she gets.

When I really thought about where meat came from, and thought about the fact that I personally could not kill an animal, I stopped eating meat (18 years ago). Before I had the intellectual capacity to think an argument through like that, I just thought it was "normal".

Now I was raised in a household by parents who didn't like vegetables, and had difficulties preparing veggie meals (they didn't mind, but didn't know how to go about it!). The world is a different place now, and dd is being raised in a house where all of the vegetarian "staples" are served on a regular basis, so we'll see what happens.


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## Individuation (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?

Maybe because we're interested in vegetarianism and veganism, even if we aren't ready to make that leap yet? People post on the circ board who don't have boys. Ladies who are TTC post in the pregnancy forums. I don't think it's a problem if things are kept respectful. As long as people realize it IS the veg board, and don't post things like "Well, I think meat is fine-and-dandy!"

I read this board because I eat very little meat and CONTINUALLY get sick (ETA: I get sick when I don't eat meat, and alas, am fine when I do. Nobody is more saddened by this than my Buddhist self, so please do not tell me this is all in my head). I try to get tips from veg*ns on how to keep my iron and nutrients up without meat. I'm interested in vegetarianiasm--I was a vegetarian and vegan chef.

Honestly, I don't see myself going totally veg, for various reasons. But I think its important to know where your food comes from, and to let your little ones know, and let the chips fall where they may. Eight kids out of ten will go veg if they hear the truth about factory farming. My dd and I decided a year ago that if we were going to eat meat we'd do so *mindfully*, which meant that we had a responsibility to learn how meat got to our table. Needless to say, that experiment ended in our swearing off all conventional meat, and most "organic" meat as well. We would still eat some very, very small-farmed meat, occasionally.

So, while we're "non-veg," we read (and rarely, post) here, because we're at the very least veg "sympathizers." I'd never post anything I thought offensive to veg*ns. When a thread came up about eating non-conventional meat, I suggested it be moved off this board because it seemed rude to have a meat-eating thread here. But am I not to post at all, unless I'm absolutely veg*n? Where is the line?


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

One thing that is important to remember is that not all veg*ns are that way for ethical reasons, so even among only veg*ns you might hear alot of the same opinions (that you clearly do not care for).

I don't personally believe that a child, esp a small child, needs to know where meat comes from to eat it. I think there is a such thing as TMI here. I don't tell my child the basics of factory farming when she asks for a slice of cheese just like I don't tell her of the horrors of sweatshop child labor when she asks for certain toys and I don't tell her of all the people going homeless and hungry because of jobs being shipped overseas when she wants something that isn't made in the USA. Worrying about that stuff is _MY_ job. I make the choices that reflect our ethics as best I can, and I allow her to enjoy her ignorance until she's ready for the information.

(Besides, not all meat comes from cruel, inhumane factory farms, anyway, so it's very possible these kids who love meat don't need to hear about factory farms, period.)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?

Here on Mothering, everyone is welcome to visit any board they wish. Some people, like myself, may be seeking vegen or vegetarian recipes. There are only a few forums here that are "support only"--FYT and Spirituality come to mind--but other than that, if you ask a question in any forum, you can expect an answer from a wide range of people. No one here may tell people they can or can post in a forum, as long as people are posting within the confines of the UA.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

:


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## appifanie (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of us omni's that will not purchase nor consume factory farmed meat. If I can't buy free range organic or kosher meat, then we don't eat meat. I stand that I am just as much opposed to the factory farming cruelty as an ethical vegan. My babies are only 12 months, but I definately do plan on explaining where all our food comes from -- and by that time, will hopefully be growing/raising most of it on our own property. We never eat nuggets or processed food btw.

that's nice in theory, but in actuality, "free range" means nothing and kosher is no guarantee of anything.

http://www.goveg.com/f-agri_violators.asp
http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/

http://www.satyamag.com/sept06/goodreau.html

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Even people who eat meat, aware on some level that the experience is unpleasant for the animals, will tell you they object to unnecessary abuse and cruelty. They declare that they buy only "humane" meat, "free-range" eggs and "organic" milk, perceiving themselves as ethical consumers and these products as the final frontier in the fight against animal cruelty. Though we kill over 10 billion land animals every year to please our palates, we never question the absurdity of this sacred societal ritual. Instead, we absolve ourselves by making what we think are guilt-free choices, failing to recognize the paradox of "humane slaughter" and never really knowing what the whole experience is for an animal from cradle (domestication) to grave (our bodies).

Quote:

I stand that I am just as much opposed to the factory farming cruelty as an ethical vegan.
This is just one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard. Vegans aren't just upset about how animals live their lives and how they're slaughtered, _but that they are slaughtered_. Vegans aren't just against factory farming - they're against the meaningless slaughter of animals for food when there are so many other food sources in the world (that don't promote murder).


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

:


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I think that's being a bit extreme. It's impossible to avoid all animal products in this day and age and of course there *could* be some "cross contamination" but the idea is to not knowingly contribute to the harming other creatures. Your point of dripping juices (as revolting as that is) on veggies doesn't really fit into the picture. At least not as I see it.

Growing your own food is a great option-if you have it! That's very cool.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *appifanie* 
that's nice in theory, but in actuality, "free range" means nothing and kosher is no guarantee of anything.

Sort of ot, but I just read that "organic" means basically nothing as far as how beef cows are treated. It means something for other animals, but not beef. And seeing as how "free range" doesn't necessarily mean anything (nobody oversees the label), it seems pretty unlikely that anyone would be able to buy "humanely raised" beef in a store.
http://www.humanefood.ca/docs/FactSheets/Beef2004.pdf

from http://www.humanefood.ca/foodfacts.html


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## HopesMom (Dec 17, 2005)

I have a feeling this thread has wandered off the original question a bit, but I wanted to say that I loved meat as a kid. I did. When I was old enough to ask what it was I was really eating and think about it, my love for it changed dramatically. But as a young child it was probably the most flavorful thing I ate each day. (Now, that is more a product of the cooking I was raised on than anything, but its true.)


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

:


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Well, yup. I was present for the slaughtering of pigs at my uncle's farm from the ages of, oh, 3 or 4 until 7 or 8. I continued to eat meat for another four or five years. When I finally gave it up, it had nothing to do with that slaughtering, it had to do with what I'd read about the health benefits, and with factory farming (the whole farming process, not the slaughtering particularly. I was, and still am, concerned with the animals living their entire lives in horror, not with the exact moment of death. Now that I eat meat again, nearly 100% of what I eat comes from local farms where I can personally go investigate their ethics.)

DD1, who, yes, loves meat, has been asking about where it comes from lately. I've been totally honest with her. I could see that she paused to think about it at each moment, but it hasn't diminished her gusto for eating meat.

None of my cousins, who grew up hand raising those pigs and then participated in their slaughter, ever gave up eating meat. None of my cousins who grew up hunting ever went veg. I'll be honest, the only people I've personally known (yes, I know that this is not universally true, but I figure as a large anecdotal body of evidence, it must mean something), who were so disgusted with the idea of killing an animal that they gave up eating meat due to it are those who grew up thinking meat grew spontaneously in little styrofoam packages in the grocery store and couldn't process the truth as a teen/adult. The people, like myself, who were experienced with slaughter and gave up eating meat did so for perceived health benefits or because of factory farming, not because of slaughter.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?

How could those whose families are vegetarian ever answer the OPs question in the first place? And, I peruse this board because I feel that, in the absence of animosity, we trad-diet folks and you veg*ns have a lot to share. I really miss having all our discussions together, because seperating it into different forums has further isolated us from one another. There are so many topics that vegetarians and even vegans share with us non-veg*n health-foodies. Sprouting, raw foods (including dairy), fermenting, organics, finding local resources, social issues with people rejecting our choices and even possibly taking action against us for their perception of us abusing our children with our odd food choices. These are all things we share. Personally, when I post here, I try to be respectful and helpful, not intrusive. Your attitude of, "You don't belong here" when the posters have been respectful is not, well, respectful. It seems to indicate your belief that any person you disagree with must be too stupid to participate in your conversation, even when the original question can only be answered by meat eating people.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
Second of all, I agree with the original poster. Dont you think that children should know what they are eating? I think they should know they are eating a dead animal and exactly which species. Otherwise the animal is just a thing, or just food on the plate. They are living things!

My children do know. Well, my 4 year old does. In detail. She knows the lamb in our shephard's pie was a wooly white lamb at the farm we visit. She knows the chicken in the crock pot was a chicken like the ones she pets at the farmer's market. She knows her steak once went moo. She knows that when we buy a side of beef and go to pick it up at the abbatoir, that's where they killed the cow. We went to a pig roast last weekend and she saw the pig on the spit, then the person who served reached straight into the carcass to pull out meat. DD reached out and tweaked the tail of the carcass and asked me questions about it. My 2 year old isn't old enough to understand yet, but she hears me discussing it with her sister.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *appifanie* 
that's nice in theory, but in actuality, "free range" means nothing and kosher is no guarantee of anything.

It's true that going to Trader Joe's and buying "free range" meat doesn't mean a thing. But, going to a farm where I can see the cows grazing in the field, I can tour the barn - freely, I might add, not on an arranged tour - and see that the barn is spotless, there are no facilities for storing or feeding grain because none are used on the farm, there are no great cabinets full of antibiotics and equipment for it's administration, well, Yes, I trust that those farms are raising their animals ethically. And I've taken just such a tour of all the farms I buy meat from.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *appifanie* 
This is just one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard. Vegans aren't just upset about how animals live their lives and how they're slaughtered, _but that they are slaughtered_. Vegans aren't just against factory farming - they're against the meaningless slaughter of animals for food when there are so many other food sources in the world (that don't promote murder).

Not neccisarily true. When I was vegetarian, and shortly vegan, I had very little concern for the moment of slaughter. I felt that all animals die one way or another, all animals become food for something (even if it's maggots and bacteria). I had a *lot* of concern for how they lived their lives. I still do.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson* 
Well, yup. I was present for the slaughtering of pigs at my uncle's farm from the ages of, oh, 3 or 4 until 7 or 8. I continued to eat meat for another four or five years. When I finally gave it up, it had nothing to do with that slaughtering, it had to do with what I'd read about the health benefits, and with factory farming (the whole farming process, not the slaughtering particularly. I was, and still am, concerned with the animals living their entire lives in horror, not with the exact moment of death. Now that I eat meat again, nearly 100% of what I eat comes from local farms where I can personally go investigate their ethics.)

DD1, who, yes, loves meat, has been asking about where it comes from lately. I've been totally honest with her. I could see that she paused to think about it at each moment, but it hasn't diminished her gusto for eating meat.

None of my cousins, who grew up hand raising those pigs and then participated in their slaughter, ever gave up eating meat. None of my cousins who grew up hunting ever went veg. I'll be honest, the only people I've personally known (yes, I know that this is not universally true, but I figure as a large anecdotal body of evidence, it must mean something), who were so disgusted with the idea of killing an animal that they gave up eating meat due to it are those who grew up thinking meat grew spontaneously in little styrofoam packages in the grocery store and couldn't process the truth as a teen/adult. The people, like myself, who were experienced with slaughter and gave up eating meat did so for perceived health benefits or because of factory farming, not because of slaughter.


I grew up on a farm. I grew up eating chickens, rabbits, turkeys, beef, and pork that we raised. We butchered all the small animals ourselves, so my brothers and I knew from very early on where meat came from. My children have a similar experience.

I went veg for several years, not because of the slaughter/humane issue, but for perceived health reasons. My experience with this is the same as Tboorson's. Every veg. I've met who was saddened/disgusted/horrified with the slaughter process was not raised around it. They had only eaten plastic wrapped meat from the grocery store, and had never truly thought through the process from start to finish. Everyone who had hunted or grown up on a farm who was veg., did so for the perceived health benefits. They were not swayed by the extreme PETA stuff, because they knew the reality of small(er) farms and humane practices. However, I understand that that is not the case with everyone who is veg.

I understand how offensive it is to hear someone say something about "loving meat". Still, some children *do* like meat, even when they know where it came from. Let's not kid ourselves that all people are ignorant of the facts of life and death. I think it's possible to share viewpoints in a respectful manner.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)




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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
First of all, Why are people even bothering to post in the veg board if they arent vegetarian or vegan?
Second of all, I agree with the original poster. Dont you think that children should know what they are eating? I think they should know they are eating a dead animal and exactly which species. Otherwise the animal is just a thing, or just food on the plate. They are living things!

I'm posting because I saw the title on the new posts and my kids love meat! They also talk at length about EXACTLY what animal any given meat comes from. I grew up plucking feathers from the chickens we would eat for dinner...

(I was also vegetarian for about 6 years.)

BTW, animals are important parts of healthy agricultural systems. Good, diverse small farms have a mix of livestock and crops because the two are complementary in the system. Much of the theoretical pasture land that could produce more grain and vegetable to feed more people would in fact be destroyed if it were used for crops--sloping land and any land subject to erosion is much better suited for livestock than cropping because the soil is far less disturbed.

There is a lot of land in this category. I live in a hilly area of Kentucky where farmers often emphasize cattle where cropping would destroy their land. I also see plenty of land damaged because it is used for field crops when it should not be. It's not just total acreage, YK.

Anyhow, I finally realized that it fit my body and my environment to be omnivorous. I first made this change because I was listening to my body and believed that it could instruct me as to what it needs. Years later, I still have faith in this and am healthy without weight problems or anything. We have dabbled a bit with NT, we eat quite a bit of butter and cultured dairy.... And my kids love meat. We don't eat a whole lot and they usually act like it is a big treat even when they are talking about exactly what animal they are eating.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

How do yu report an innapropriate post?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
How do yu report an innapropriate post?

See the little exclamation point in the triangle in the lower right hand corner? You just click it. Keep in mind that

Quote:

This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
See the little exclamation point in the triangle in the lower right hand corner? You just click it. Keep in mind that










"If someone is posting inappropriately on the Vegetarian sub-forum, i.e. advocating eating meat, please feel free to report the post."

Cathe said this in another board, so which is it? Can I report someone for advocating eating meat on the veg board?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
"If someone is posting inappropriately on the Vegetarian sub-forum, i.e. advocating eating meat, please feel free to report the post."

You said this in another board, so which is it? Can I report someone for advocating eating meat on the veg board?

I think Cathe, who is the moderator of this forum, said that. And that would probably fall under the "problematic post" part.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I think Cathe, who is the moderator of this forum, said that. And that would probably fall under the "problematic post" part.









Im not sure what you mean. Can you explain?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermontgirl* 
Im not sure what you mean. Can you explain?

I mean that if you feel someone was advocating that everyone should eat meat, and Cathe said to report those posts to her, then you should absolutely report it because that post would be problematic.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

I moved this thread to the main Good Eating forum as whether someone likes and/or eats meat is not appropriate topic for the vegetarian forum.

Thanks for reporting this thread.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *appifanie* 
that's nice in theory, but in actuality, "free range" means nothing and kosher is no guarantee of anything.

Unless you see it ranging in your mountains and buy it from the cattleman, finished to your specifications. In that case too, the steer is not likely to end up at a slaughter house and the star of a PETA video. Though clearly, that steer becomes dinner just like those in the movies and probably would prefer to live his life grazing in those mountains had he been given the opportunity.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

I just wanted to point out that if you tell your kids that your food is a 'bloody, disgusting gore', then I'm not sure they would eat it. If you told them the yogurt had little bugs in them that end up living in your tummy, that might put them off too. But the point of the OP is that the only valid diet is veg-based, so of course she would be biased.

Ds and I enjoy meat. I'm learning that truly, to each his or her own. I have friends who are veg*n, and I don't agree with their diets. Some of the things they complain about - bad teeth, chronic congestion, behaviorial issues - are addressed right in the Weston-Price literature. But their choices are not mine, and vice-versa. I'm thankful that they don't diss me or try to change me. I try to return their respect. I think that when someone stands on ethical ground, s/he should do so without judgement. Buddhist monks who eat only fruit that has fallen to the ground, and step so as not to harm a single bug do not complain about the bug-killing, tree-injuring veg*ns in the world.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

My daughter eats and enjoys meat. And yes, I am raising her to know exactly where her food comes from. She knows that the some of the chickens that we feed at the farm are going to end up on the dinner plate, and that we are eating the eggs. We look at the whole salmon at the farmers market, talk about where it came from, and then take home a piece to cook for our lunch. When we see cows we talk about how some give her the milk she drinks, some provide the beef we eat, and how some are just for loving.

When she gets older we will talk about factory farming, and how harmful and cruel it is to animals, and how we have made the choice to to eat meat that has been raised in such horrible conditions.
We will also talk about how no American diet can be completely death-free: if you are vegetarian and vegan animals still die for your food. Thousands of rabbits, moles, raccoons, and other animals are crushed by combines, torn up by plows, and die other grisley deaths when grain and bean fields are ploughed, planted, and harvested. Animals are poisoned by non-organic farming methods. We will talk about the importance of buying local, organic, amd small-farm grown and raised food to minimize the impact on environmental harm and harm to wildlife.

I am teaching her to honor and respect where her food comes from, that life lives at the expense of life, but that we can be concious and respectful of how our food lives and dies. When she gets older, if she chooses to become vegetarian, that will be fine with me. But I doubt that it will be because she had a huge revelation about "where her meat comes from." i am teacher her all about that now.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommay* 
I think that when someone stands on ethical ground, s/he should do so without judgement. Buddhist monks who eat only fruit that has fallen to the ground, and step so as not to harm a single bug do not complain about the bug-killing, tree-injuring veg*ns in the world.


It is easier said than done (I think the staying off ones high horse) but I am in total agreement. I believe that when you do something with an air of superiority around you, people believe less of what you say, and more of how you act as your reasons for being a certain way. As in, "She's just all about natural birth so she can put down moms who opt for the epidural" that kinda thinking.
I am not a believer in Weston Price (his raw liver to breastfed babies remark really put me off), and I haven't found any research that any cultures were long term vegans (why the * in the word, anyways), but I also know todays meat and dairy is full of horomones and bad things. Hell, our fruits and vegetables are grown in crap soil and sprayed with chemicals.

I don't know what I am trying to say. I respect people's different beliefs, but if someone has a superiority around them or throws it out there like their 'badge of honor', I tend to blow them off or realize that they have a different reason than what they are saying for being how they are.
We are all traveling our own path in life.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama* 
(why the * in the word, anyways)

I'm not the one who used it this time but I'll answer - it's simply a way to include both vegan and vegetarian in a sentence rather then typing both.


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## Samjm (Mar 12, 2005)

I'm really not trying to be confrontational here, but I'm not sure how to phrase this so it doesn't come acrss that way....

Quote:

Dont you think that children should know what they are eating? I think they should know they are eating a dead animal and exactly which species. Otherwise the animal is just a thing, or just food on the plate. They are living things!
So, do you take your child to a farm to pick their veggies? Do they really know what they are eating? Do they know that vegetables are living things too?

We are omnivores. We spent a Saturday a couple of weeks ago harvesting vegetables. We were out in the fields pulling out carrots with our bare hands, picking onions etc.

In November, we will be visiting a friend's farm to help with the slaughter. We'll go there at sheep shearing time too and I'll come home with a bag of fleece which I'll then spin into yarn.

While my daughter might still be a little young to totally "get" the connection, she will definitely be raised to know where meat and ALL her food comes from.

And yes, right now she does love meat. If she chooses not to eat meat when she is older, that is perfectly OK with me. It is her choice to make. I'm not going to hide where her food comes from to trick her into eating it.


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

My Dd's say, "Mommy, I want cow tonight" or chicken, pig, etc... We get ours "meat" from a local farmer.

I feel that humans are supposed to eat animals, hunters/gatherers.

Touchy thread.


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
honestly?
my son loves meat. but, then, he also loves cat puke. he's eaten both with gusto.

Hey, same for Dd1!!! Maybe they'll end up together!


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Some people do like eating meat. Some people even depend on it - not much grows in the northern part of my country. I think you would be hard pressed to explain to an Inuit family why they should become vegetartian or vegan. Meat and fish are their natural and traditional diet for a good reason. Even in the not so extremely northern regions of Canada there is a lot of land where not much grows - so in order to have a veg*n diet, people must depend on food that was grown thousands of miles away and shipped to them - Northerners simply cannot eat locally grown fruits and vegetables - because they don't grow where they live, period. I used to be vegan and even though I did a lot of preserving during the summer months, much of my diet had to come from other countries. I wasn't contributing to the slaughter of animals, but I was contributing to the greenhouse gas problem by purchasing food that had to be trucked here - foods that kept me healthy and happy and animal free but never would they grow where I live. It is all about mimimizing my impact on the Earth, but I have to accept the fact that I am going to have an impact, I just have to decide what I can live with and make choices accordingly.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I guess my post was the one considered offensive but it was not meant to be.

The title and OP were pretty confrontational/judgmental to generalize about people who eat meat and parents who eat it with their children. It was suggested that our children have to remain ignorant about where meat comes from because it is so disgusting that if they knew what it was they would know it was wrong to eat it.

I don't disagree with choosing to be vegetarian. Not a bit. And I don't shove meat-eating in anyone's faces or ever say "my kids love meat" as a response to someone telling me they are vegetarian. (I do cringe every time one says that all the land used for pasture could be cropped to more efficient grain foods, because I used to think this too and later learned more about agriculture.)

I did not mean to offend. I just started writing about the fact that my kids most certainly do know what meat is and where it comes from and that many of us and our children have been part of the process of killing and processing our own meats. They were just casual thoughts on the topic. It did not occur to me that this was inappropriate considering the original question, but I had not thought about the fact that it would be in the vegan/veggie forum. Obviously I never go there and I have never tried to start a debate there about anything or convince anyone to consider eating meat.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy* 
Mostly, I guess the point of this post/rant is that kids are not told what meat is. How it's made, etc. because of the parents other agendas. Because it's WAY easier to learn to NOT feel for the food in that way. It's a learned behavior to "not think about it" (as many meat eaters will tell me when I ask HOW they can eat it if the DO understand it)

Actually, that is what I try to teach my daughter about the food she eats. To know where it comes from and how it's grown. She's met the chickens that we've now eaten that are part of our chicken share from our CSA. I would have gladly introduced her to the lamb I'm about to pick up from the butcher next week. She helped to pick peas, green beans, tomatoes, blueberries, strawberries and apples this summer from our CSA and other farms.

I was a vegetarian for several years b/c I mourned the loss of our connection to the earth and the food it gives us. And then I found other ways to reconnect and be respectful to it. I personally don't believe humans were meant to vegetarians but I don't diss someone's choice. I'm an omnivore. One that's conscious of what I'm eating. I don't try to make anything I eat unrecognizable.

And yes the chickens, lambs, cows, etc. that I eat are cute. And it's sad in a way that they die for my meals. But it's not like nature is all warm and fuzzy even though I think we like to think it is. But I don't think any of the frogs or mice in my yard that got eaten by the owl mother and her young this summer felt nature was warm and fuzzy.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

My ds started on raw meat at 4.5 mos.. he was shouting for it on my plate and gobbled it up when I let him try it. Meat has been his food of preference ever since, besides breastmilk. I'm glad, it's the best thing for him.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Yep, my 3 and 7 year old ds's LOVE meat and they know exactly where it comes from. My 7 year sometimes asks me which body part the meat he's eating is from. The baby also LOVES meat, but he doesn't know where it comes from. I don't have a problem with that. We don't eat conventional meat, btw.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg_s* 
My ds started on raw meat at 4.5 mos..

Why on earth would you give a four month old raw meat?? There is no reason he would need such a thing.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

My guess is, she means a piece of rare steak, and she was speaking in a way intended to rile folks up. I don't know whether to criticize her for being childish... or tease you for biting









Anyway, both of my girls had "raw" meat as some of their first foods: rare steaks and sushi. But, neither of my girls touched solid food at all until they were more like 11 months.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Hey it's morning, I'm easily riled!


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_tigress* 
Sure. I've known kids who grew up on farms, participated in killing the animals themselves, and still love meat. It's pretty natural, considering that humans are biologically omnivores. Independent of how you feel about eating animals, it's hard to deny that there are people who love meat even when they know exactly where it comes from.

If I had access to showing my kid exactly where the meat came from I would take him to the slaughter and the butcher.
When I was 6 or 7 my dad allowed me to help with the butchering of the meat. It made me like meat MORE.
Young chimps see groups of adult males chase down and kill other monkies and they try to eat the meat too. (and it's comming strait out of a rib cage- you don't get much more primal than that)

I think the idea that "if kids knew where it came from they wouldn't like it" just doesn't hold water in reality. It was a good theory though, now time to revise.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
Why on earth would you give a four month old raw meat?? There is no reason he would need such a thing.

I was eating it for dinner, and he was clamouring for it. Reaching shouting and so on. Raw meat is one of the most easily digested foods out there and has one of the highest nutrient profiles. I am not quite sure what the point is to saying there is no reason he would need such a thing. Do 4 1/2 month old babies who have "tastes" of their parents food and are exclusively breastfed ever "need" that food?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg_s* 
Do 4 1/2 month old babies who have "tastes" of their parents food and are exclusively breastfed ever "need" that food?

No they don't, so there is no reason to give it to them. Especially to take the risk with something that could carry disease like raw meat.


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

I've been vegetarian or vegan(on and off) for the last 15 years. My dh eats meat. We raise chickens and beef cattle(certified organic, grass-fed, happy pastured critters) for sale. Dd(3) certainly knows where meat comes from. She knows why I don't eat it, and why Papa does. She comes to the slaughterhouse with me to drop off animals and pick up meat. She doesn't love meat. She mostly can take it or leave it. Sometimes she loves chicken, so she eats it. She mostly doesn't like beef. We let her make her own choices, but I think her likes and dislikes have little to do with it being dead animal, more about taste and consistancy. I think she is too young to have much empathy for the animals. Which is okay developmentally, empathy develops over time.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Um, you mean besides being too early for solids? His immune system is still too undeveloped to be able to handle the complex bacteria in raw meat.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg_s* 
Raw meat is one of the most easily digested foods out there

Where did you get this information? Could you provide a link?


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

If anyone wants to chat about the appropriateness of raw meat because they're actually interested how about emailing me privately or pming me? I didn't post to get into an online debate over meat.... only to state that my son really enjoys it and has from his first taste. That it was raw is not the point.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I just have a question. Why is it okay to inflict harm upon trees by plucking their fruit and pull carrots out of the ground to eat them, causing their death, but not to do the same with animals and meat? Vegetables and fruit are alive, too, so why do they not deserve the same respect? Is it because they are not conscious? Would it be okay, then, to eat a comatose person who is in a vegetable-state? I've never understood why it is okay to kill a plant and eat it, but not an animal. I apologize if this is a stupid question or seems extreme, but I really just don't get it.







:

For the record my son does like meat...and he is way too young to understand where it comes from. As for me, I liked meat as a child. After I learned where meat came from I was very sad for the 'poor animals' at first but I continued to like meat. I have nothing against vegetarians; it is just not for me, at least not at this point in my life. I just find the whole 'If they really knew what they were eating they probably wouldn't like it!" to be a little...well, ridiculous. I knew, and I still liked it.







:

Speaking of raw meat, Corbin had his first taste of sushi last night.... Little Man was not amused.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I just have a question. Why is it okay to inflict harm upon trees by plucking their fruit and pull carrots out of the ground to eat them, causing their death, but not to do the same with animals and meat? Vegetables and fruit are alive, too, so why do they not deserve the same respect?


Plants do not have a central nervous system and therefore do not have the ability to suffer.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Then as I said...if there's an animal that is comatose and in a vegetable-state, incapable of feeling, suffering, thinking...is it okay to eat it then? What if a person has lost all feeling in a limb? Would it be okay to sever it and eat it? Is that not what we're doing when we eat vegetables, killing something that's alive to eat because it cannot feel?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

A vegetable never had feeling and never will, it's completely different.

Also veg*ns actually are responsible for consuming less vegetables then meat eaters because we are not contributing to feeding the animals vegetables we are eating. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce a pound of beef. So if you are worried about the feelings of vegetables, go vegan!


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

But, many of us are eating beef that never touched an ounce of grain. Grain is not a natural food for a cow. Animals can graze land that's not arable for row crops, so you can't argue that one could produce lettuce on the same land that a cow is grazing from.

Furthermore, unless you're growing all your own vegetables (and I mean that literally, all your vegetables), you're responsible for the death of animals. So many mice, rabbits, birds and other small animals are ground up by the farm equipment. Such mechanical deaths are even worse with organic farming, because they till more frequently to control weeds. With non-organic farming, the chemicals used kill countless insects. The chemicals flow off into streams and kill fish and birds. Even organic farms use insect controls such as bt that kill insects. So, how many mice, birds, rabbits and insects die per 100 calories of farmed cauliflower, vs. the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of calories one gains per a single death of a cow? The only way you can avoid being the cause of animal death is by gardening (or better yet, wildcrafting) 100% of your food. At that, you need to be doing all your cultivating and weeding by hand, because a mechanical tiller risks killing mice and so forth as well. If you're losing your entire crop of tomatoes to hornworms, you wouldn't be able to treat them with bt, or even buy some parasitic wasps.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Right, going veg is not perfect and some animals die in the cultivation of veggie crops. (And I do grow about 1/3 of the vegetables I consume.) That doesn't mean it's a reason to turn a blind eye to the horrors of how animals in the dairy and meat industry are treated and to want to support that. Just because you choose meat that has a grass fed sticker on it doesn't mean you know how the animal was treated. If you are killing your own cow that you raise with loving hands however, I do apologize.

But it's your choice, I'm not condemning anyone for eating meat simply by being a vegetarian. moonfirefaery asked a question and I was answering it.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm still not getting it. What does it matter if something could once feel? If they don't feel what it is being done to them, then they don't feel what is being done. Why is it ok to eat a vegetable that can't feel but not to remove the leg of of an animal who can't feel? What does the fact that they could once feel have to do with it? They still aren't feeling anything at the time of the removal, so how do they suffer? If they had no feeling they probably couldn't use the leg before anyway. I'm not worried about the feelings of anything, really. I just think it's a little odd to descriminate. I don't know the animal was treated, no, but I don't think they are treated as PETA would have us believe.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Well that's your right. I'm not trying to convert you. If you honestly can't see a difference between eating a carrot and gnawing on the leg of a comotose person there is nothing I can say that will help.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I see the difference. A person is a human, and that would be cannibalism which is in fact frowned upon in some cultures.  I'm just trying to understand the moral difference between eating a carrot and a leg of lamb. I understand there's the animal cruelty issue, and I do get that specifically. I get that some people think it is healthier. I'm just not getting the "It's okay to kill a carrot but not a pig" thing. I'm not trying to be snarky, either. I just would like to understand.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Well if people only went around eating comotose animals then I could totally see your point. But they don't. They raise animals, often in horrific conditions, and then torture them before killing and eating their flesh. The fact that they have a nervous system and feel is the difference. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

We just starting giving DS 13mo a bit of meats from our plate and guess what, he loves meat







: maybe because it is a new food or because his dad could be the next T-rex


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

t-rex!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I'm still not getting it. What does it matter if something could once feel? If they don't feel what it is being done to them, then they don't feel what is being done. Why is it ok to eat a vegetable that can't feel but not to remove the leg of of an animal who can't feel? What does the fact that they could once feel have to do with it? They still aren't feeling anything at the time of the removal, so how do they suffer? If they had no feeling they probably couldn't use the leg before anyway. I'm not worried about the feelings of anything, really. I just think it's a little odd to descriminate. I don't know the animal was treated, no, but I don't think they are treated as PETA would have us believe.

How many comatose animals are you eating? I have never heard of someone searching the world over to find animals in a vegetative state for the purpose of humane consumption. This is a weird and strange conversation.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

My 4-year-old does love meat--because he's allergic to dairy, soy, eggs, nuts, peanuts, quinoa, gluten, and most legumes, among other things. Protein's in pretty darn short supply here.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I thought there was a study done where plants do feel stress and something else when you cut off leaves or pick their fruits. Or maybe I'm just confusing it with the Twilight Zone episode.

I think you can have a vegan that can actually be buying more food products that are harmful to the earth than someone who is an omnivore but also a localvore, etc. who makes far more conscious decisions about the food they eat. So I don't think it's a good comparison to say animals suffer, plants don't so eat plants. Please tell that to the tree that fell in our yard recently from high winds.

DD loved the rack of organic local lamb we had over the weekend and demanded more.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I've heard of those studies too, lisalou, but haven't actually seen them. Even if it's true, plants surely don't have the same level of awareness of animals. And everyone has to eat something.

And as this thread has gone from strange to stranger, moonfirefaery, even if you rip off the animals leg when it was dead, it had to become dead at some point. The beef tongue that we are about to eat once actually moved around in a mouth.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
Please tell that to the tree that fell in our yard recently from high winds.

I don't talk to vegetation I just eat it. I guess that makes me an insensitive plant eater. I would however hug the tree that fell down. Does that help?


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I don't talk to vegetation I just eat it. I guess that makes me an insensitive plant eater. I would however hug the tree that fell down. Does that help?


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

GF-love the avatar! Or should I say, jacket? Exciting!


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

OK.... I havent read the entire thread. I must say though that my boys love meat. We are veggie at this point. My oldest especially at 5 knows where meat comes from and is extremely compassionate. He bounces between the feeling of" nobody should ever kill an animal ever" and understanding the environmental impact. The next day he really is at odds within himself and says that he doesn't want to become a vegetarian and that he loves meat and that its his choice. I agree with him. If he knows where it comes from and the implicatins of eating meat and still chooses to eat it, it is his choice. I would prefer that we don't eat it at this point, but I do respect that he does like how it tastes.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

Ok.... That Is A Really Weird Thread!!!!


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I don't talk to vegetation I just eat it. I guess that makes me an insensitive plant eater. I would however hug the tree that fell down. Does that help?

Just be careful it's a hemlock, I wouldn't want it taking revenge on you.









I'm sure you get my point that something has to be killed for anyone to eat. It's a violent act at its heart.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Hey Kitty, have you ever read The Secret Life of Plants? You may not ever be able to eat anything!







:


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Sounds like a book I should clearly stay away from!


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Hey, HK....just out of curiousity.....do you wear leather?








sorry, back to my cave now


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

:


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I'd be a vegetarian....but I like steak too much.

This is something I say jokingly all the time. I respect vegetarians and their beliefs and I support animal rights (and to be perfectly honest, saying the words "taste of meat" makes even ME sick a little); but I honestly truly can't even walk past a bbq'ing steak without my mouth watering...in fact, it's happening right now









I don't know how they kill the animals; I don't want to know. I'm sure they could be more humane about it. I understand "chicken" vs "free-range" chicken and if I could afford it, I'd do free range for sure, but I can't.

I guess in the end, my opening statement is really true. I support vegetarianism (I eat tofu too!); but I really love meat.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
I'd be a vegetarian....but I like steak too much.

I use to say that all the time. Actually I was never a big steak eater but I would say that I loved burgers too much. Then I visited a dairy farm - totally prepared to see sweet little cows roaming the grass - and I was just shocked. It was all downhill from there







My DH is always saying "Damn that dairy farm!!!"

Regarding your question Mackenzie - No I don't, I'm sorry if that bursts a bubble in any of your fantasies about me.







:

And before you ask, I don't wear fur or carry a "lucky" rabbit's foot either.


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## GiggleBirds (Oct 24, 2006)

Crazy discussion. Thanks









Regarding the "vegetables are alive too" debate, consider that fruit and vegetables will die over the winter, so I perceive them as gifts from God. And why would you waste a gift and let it rot? Whereas animals have feelings, families, brainwaves, etc. What right do we have to take their lives when they would go on living, doing their thang?

If a tribe of cannibals took over America (just go with it), would you fight for your life? Or be all "well, you guys need to eat too; sure, go ahead" and hand over your children?

Just thought I could contribute to the Oddness of the way this thread has gone.







But I mean the question too.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy* 
is there a child out there that REALLY LOVES "MEAT"?

We are vegetarian but my oldest daughter, adopted from Ethiopia five months ago, is not. When she lived with her family in Ethiopia they used to slaughter their own goats and chickens. She knows what dying and dead animals look like. She loves meat. She does not think of animals the way my dh and I do. Their suffering and death do not bother her because she doesn't really regard them as sentient beings.

Namaste!


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I don't talk to vegetation I just eat it. I guess that makes me an insensitive plant eater. I would however hug the tree that fell down. Does that help?









that takes me back to dp's brother(who called me 'the rock eater') who had a deep discussion with a vegetarian talking about not wanting to hurt a living thing while ripping the leaves off a tree and him telling her she was a hippocrite.
hes an omni btw. he told me about that and i said "well those tomato plants must really hate me then!" just call me the turnip reaper...

i read something religious about vegetarianism, i think it maye have been about hindus... that eating plants is violence and we cant exist without causing violence in some form so we must strive to make as little violence as possible in the world. and because animals eat plants if we ate animals we would have caused violence against the animal and the plants that animal ate... it gets pretty into it and i think it made a good point.

to justify eating meat by saying plants feel is like saying we might as well drive a hummer because i cant ever remember to recycle.

now if you just come out and say youre eating meat and dont make justifications ill respect you alot more...


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
Regarding your question Mackenzie - No I don't, I'm sorry if that bursts a bubble in any of your fantasies about me.







:

And before you ask, I don't wear fur or carry a "lucky" rabbit's foot either.

didnt you get the memo kitty?
vegans are supposed to secretly wear leather and eat meat when no ones around.








theyre on to us!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
we might as well drive a hummer because i cant ever remember to recycle.

I double dare you to make that your sig line.

poxy... shhhhhhh....... just keep denying and they'll leave us alone!


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

We just watched an episode of a show called "mythbusters" ( i think on one of those discovery channels) and they showed how plants DO react to "pain." So it's true! (it was on the TV!!)

poxy, lol at the hummer comment. I agree with kitty -- make it your siggy! and add that the hummer will have leather seats.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

leather seats!







:


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Personally, I think respect goes a long way on BOTH sides if it is given/recieved.

I appreciate the passionate stance of vegans, but no, I don't want to hear it being shoved down my throat. Why? Because someday I want to be 'mostly' vegetarian, but I personally don't find a vegan lifestyle the path I want to take.
Vegans also dont want to hear about how great meat is. How hard is that to understand.

I respect it if veganism is your lifestyle, and even if you don't respect the fact I eat dead animals, atleast pretend you do or keep your opinions to yourself.









I don't like seeing our vegan friends being messed with, but its good they have a sense of humor about it. Making fun of them only makes us 'omnivores' or 'eat-a-anything-sauruses' look that much more ignorant.

Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
to justify eating meat by saying plants feel is like saying we might as well drive a hummer because i cant ever remember to recycle.

now if you just come out and say youre eating meat and dont make justifications ill respect you alot more...

Since you quoted HelloKitty's response to a post of mine, I guess this is directed at me. I should say I don't justify eating meat by thinking that plants suffer as well. I view myself as part of the circle of life and as a human blessed with the ability to be an omnivore. I take as full advantage of that as I possibly can. I try to be as connected to my food as I can but I'm unapologetic about my meat consumption.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I use to say that all the time. Actually I was never a big steak eater but I would say that I loved burgers too much. Then I visited a dairy farm - totally prepared to see sweet little cows roaming the grass - and I was just shocked. It was all downhill from there







My DH is always saying "Damn that dairy farm!!!"

Regarding your question Mackenzie - No I don't, I'm sorry if that bursts a bubble in any of your fantasies about me.







:

And before you ask, I don't wear fur or carry a "lucky" rabbit's foot either.

Not even if the rabbit died of natural causes?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mackenzie* 
Not even if the rabbit died of natural causes?


No. But if s/he was comotose I'd have to consider it.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

what about roadkill? This older lady friend I have, found a dead deer on the side of the road and butchered it. she's obviously not a vegetarian, but was using the meat of an animal that was sure to be thrown in the ditch, had she not found it.

I live in canada. I've seen dead moose, and such, blood dripping into a tray under them. I was kinda freaked out as a kid, but that was our food.







: we didn't have money for tofu and abeans. Moose and deer are free.

ETA:
I am one who was veggie since 15 YO, but I found that I wasn't getting what I needed in my diet, and started eating buffalo recently. I'm very picky about the meat I and my kids eat. I only buy free-range, local, good stuff. I could never butcher an animal, or kill one. But I have friends who are practicing with a bow and arrow to get deer (deer are like rodents around here, there is so many of them).... as shooting them isn't fair to the animal.

I also live in an area with cows everywhere, and was extremely saddened recently, when they took all the baby cows away from the mommys, and they were all crying for days







I always tell them that I love them, and that I don't eat beef. I don't know if that makes a difference to them, but it makes me feel better.

as to the original question, yes, my kids do like meat. They don't get it very often, but it usually is a treat, because it's so freakin expensive. the high quality protein that it provides is worth it for me. It gets too cold here to be eating veggies year round.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
No. But if s/he was comotose I'd have to consider it.


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

That almost made me choke.







:


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

I have to comment on the posts about how people raised around slaughter are more likely to eat meat (or at least be neutral about it) and less likely to become vegetarian. That has not been my personal experience. True, many farmers are sort of numbed to the idea of animal slaughter - or even respect for animals in general. I grew up on a farm. My dad never had the same feelings about even dogs and cats that the rest of us did. They were just easily replaceable animals, not family members. He butchered the chickens himself, and I won't even go into that process. My mom was not from a farm family, so maybe her influence had something to do with how we turned out.

Anyway, I am quite positive that my experiences with chicken slaughter (and to a lesser extent with raising pigs) has influenced my on-again off-again vegetarianism. I couldn't eat chicken for a long time after killing and butchering them. The whole process disgusted me. My problem is that it was/is often so easy to put that disgust aside, considering that I got a good taste (no pun intended) for chicken at a young age. It is my favorite meat, and it's everywhere we go to eat. It takes discipline for me to eat vegetarian (or even pescetarian) but there are so many good reasons to do so.

DS doesn't seem interested in meat most of the time. I'm not sure if I should actively avoid giving him meat or not. Unfortunately, DH has no interest whatsoever in going veg or even reducing his meat consumption (though he jokingly said that if I ever went vegan, he would too - haha). He even usually chooses beef when we go out, which irritates me (and he knows it). So DS will be exposed to it and have the option to eat it if he wants. I guess the best I can do is explain to him where it comes from and reasons for not eating it.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

Some people (including kids) are not bothered by it. I am and have been since a child. So is my DD. Now DH is not bothered. He grew up in teh city and we lived tehre for a while (Bronx, NY) and beign many immigrants who are used to slaughtering there own meat, you can buy animals and have them slaughtered readily there. I also knew MANY who kepty chickens in their apartment. The same goes for a nearby (where I currently live) city.

I had a discussion with a vegan friend about my DS. HE began askign for meat early on... I was so dissapointed. My friend and I were sayign how I do nto think the slaughter would phase him much, just like his Dad. Yet he loves animals... so who knows?

Quote:

also, i think that a lot of parents prolly sugarcoat the truth when they tell their kids about where meat comes from. I mean . . . are they told that most animals live horrid, cramped confined lives and are painfully and inefficiently slaughtered? noooo . . . kids are prolly told the animals live happily in the sunshine on some happy farm and when they die then people eat them.
Well, there are beef cattle on my street. They do graze freely yet they sit off a major interstate and lately have been grazing around the neighboring closed POLYURETHANE plant! It is funny to see this big plant and offices-and cattle all over out front. And no I am not in a rural area-at all. They are whats left of rural here. So free range with a hint of polyurethane anyone?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson* 
But, many of us are eating beef that never touched an ounce of grain. Grain is not a natural food for a cow. Animals can graze land that's not arable for row crops, so you can't argue that one could produce lettuce on the same land that a cow is grazing from.

Furthermore, unless you're growing all your own vegetables (and I mean that literally, all your vegetables), you're responsible for the death of animals. So many mice, rabbits, birds and other small animals are ground up by the farm equipment. Such mechanical deaths are even worse with organic farming, because they till more frequently to control weeds. With non-organic farming, the chemicals used kill countless insects. The chemicals flow off into streams and kill fish and birds. Even organic farms use insect controls such as bt that kill insects. So, how many mice, birds, rabbits and insects die per 100 calories of farmed cauliflower, vs. the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of calories one gains per a single death of a cow? The only way you can avoid being the cause of animal death is by gardening (or better yet, wildcrafting) 100% of your food. At that, you need to be doing all your cultivating and weeding by hand, because a mechanical tiller risks killing mice and so forth as well. If you're losing your entire crop of tomatoes to hornworms, you wouldn't be able to treat them with bt, or even buy some parasitic wasps.

Oh yeah, even hand-tilling, I've hoed nests of mice plenty of times. I've had to put a chicken out of its misery because the poor thing had a prolapsed uterus (no factory eggs here. And I won't buy or breed chickens bred to lay so hard they do that, anymore). It's sad, but unless you are growing ALL your food organically, you will not know how many deaths are directly attributable to keeping you alive.

I wish we had more pastured humane farms to choose from. Practically minimizing cruelty is more important to me than making a philosophical point.


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## Mighty Jalapeno (Oct 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy* 
Mostly, I guess the point of this post/rant is that kids are not told what meat is. How it's made, etc. *because of the parents other agendas*. Because it's WAY easier to learn to NOT feel for the food in that way. It's a learned behavior to "not think about it" (as many meat eaters will tell me when I ask HOW they can eat it if the DO understand it)

*coughs, and sprays ground beef all over the screen*

My agenda? Really? I have an agenda?

I was raised on the knowledge that cows and pigs and chickens are raised to be killed. Near my house, growing up, were huge chicken-buildings (what the heck do you call those?) there chickens are grown in cages, de-egged, then killed and brought to my grocery store. Cow pastures abounded around my place, with pig farms down the road. I was raised knowing that they would be killed so that I would have dinner, and when I asked why, I was told why: because humans generally like meat, and have since time immemorial.

I have no ethical issue with it. Yes, I am aware of the hypocracy of killing certain animals, but I am also not really upset by cat and dog vendors in China (a friend of mine tried it, said it was tasty) because moral and ethical outrage is simply a matter of timing. People in North America would vomit from their eyeballs at the thought of eatting a kitten, but people in China would be very confused as to why, because they have a slightly more open idea as to what constitutes meat, that definition being "Anything that isn't human".

My son knows that the cows we see grow up, go to the butchers, and are chopped up and returned to us in little brown packages, which I then cook on the barbecue or the frying pan, and eventually end up as steaks, or sausages, or burritos.

My DC loves meat, and my agenda is this: wait until he grows up and makes a decision about what foods he likes, and leave it up to him. I've explained everything as well as I can for now, and when he's ready, he'll decide on his own. Far be it from me to have some sort of 'hidden agenda' to forbid my child from eating something that I think is morally wrong. That would be removing his ability to decide for himself.


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## scoobers (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mighty Jalapeno* 
*coughs, and sprays ground beef all over the screen*

My agenda? Really? I have an agenda?

I was raised on the knowledge that cows and pigs and chickens are raised to be killed. Near my house, growing up, were huge chicken-buildings (what the heck do you call those?) there chickens are grown in cages, de-egged, then killed and brought to my grocery store. Cow pastures abounded around my place, with pig farms down the road. I was raised knowing that they would be killed so that I would have dinner, and when I asked why, I was told why: because humans generally like meat, and have since time immemorial.

I have no ethical issue with it. Yes, I am aware of the hypocracy of killing certain animals, but I am also not really upset by cat and dog vendors in China (a friend of mine tried it, said it was tasty) because moral and ethical outrage is simply a matter of timing. People in North America would vomit from their eyeballs at the thought of eatting a kitten, but people in China would be very confused as to why, because they have a slightly more open idea as to what constitutes meat, that definition being "Anything that isn't human".

My son knows that the cows we see grow up, go to the butchers, and are chopped up and returned to us in little brown packages, which I then cook on the barbecue or the frying pan, and eventually end up as steaks, or sausages, or burritos.

My DC loves meat, and my agenda is this: wait until he grows up and makes a decision about what foods he likes, and leave it up to him. I've explained everything as well as I can for now, and when he's ready, he'll decide on his own. Far be it from me to have some sort of 'hidden agenda' to forbid my child from eating something that I think is morally wrong. That would be removing his ability to decide for himself.


It's attitudes like this that keep factory farms with horrific living conditions and cruel slaughterhouse practices in business. It's sad but people just don't care as long as they get their pound of flesh...whatever the source.







:


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## Mighty Jalapeno (Oct 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scoobers* 
It's attitudes like this that keep factory farms with horrific living conditions and cruel slaughterhouse practices in business. It's sad but people just don't care as long as they get their pound of flesh...whatever the source.







:

I'll make you a deal: The second that not a single human being is living in the same conditions somewhere in the world, I'll start being outraged about the animals.

EDIT: That was off-topic and snarky... sorry. However, if you consult my sig, you'll see that the argument is not a new one. I am AGAINST cruelty to animals... however, animals do not have to be cruelly raised and slaughtered in order to fill my freezer with tasty meal options.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

Regarding the "vegetables are alive too" debate, consider that fruit and vegetables will die over the winter, so I perceive them as gifts from God
This is true. Good point.







All animals will die eventually, too, though.

Quote:

If a tribe of cannibals took over America (just go with it), would you fight for your life? Or be all "well, you guys need to eat too; sure, go ahead" and hand over your children?
Accepting that feeding is necessary to survival and that death is a part of life doesn't mean you hand over your children and stop fighting for your survival. I'm not really understanding the relevance of this.

I don't think that horrific conditions and torture are the standard. I'm sure it does happen, but I highly doubt that is the norm. I know Peta has their scary video of footage recorded god-knows-where-and-when, but I'm not buying it. I don't understand how having a nervous system and feeling makes a life more worthy of respect. I understand that it seems more humane obviously because plants don't suffer, so I do get your point. I guess it's just my philosophy.

I never said that I eat comatose animals. The point of bringing that up was really to ask if it would be acceptable to eat them since, like plants, they cannot feel.

In any case I don't necessarily believe that plants don't feel a thing on any level. I think anytime you lose a part of you, there is an effect and you feel it and suffer. Why else would the withering rose look so miserable...

I'm not saying we should hug trees or not eat plants at all. I don't think anyone is. I just think we should give all life the same amount of respect.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I don't think that horrific conditions and torture are the standard. I'm sure it does happen, but I highly doubt that is the norm. I know Peta has their scary video of footage recorded god-knows-where-and-when, but I'm not buying it. I don't understand how having a nervous system and feeling makes a life more worthy of respect.

It absolutely is the norm. Really. Visit a slaughterhouse.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Maybe we just have a different view of what conditions are horrific and what constitutes as torture.


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
It absolutely is the norm. Really. Visit a slaughterhouse.

A little off-topic...but do they really let anyone walk through like tourists?


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I double dare you to make that your sig line.

poxy... shhhhhhh....... just keep denying and they'll leave us alone!

aww man but i luuuuurve my colbert quote....
ill consider it









and i dont think they will ever leave us alone. i think its like the guilty consience thing... the ones who think were talking about them and feel the need to drag it all out and rationalize are the ones who need to come to terms with themselves and accept what theyre doing.
once you accept your actions it doesnt matter what anyone else says...

thats why i said:
if you stop rationalizing ill respect you more


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
It absolutely is the norm. Really. Visit a slaughterhouse.

if someone can visit a slaughterhouse and still eat meat with a passion i wonder about thier mental state...
isnt killing animals a red flag of something serious?
devaluing of life...


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zannster* 
A little off-topic...but do they really let anyone walk through like tourists?

Not all of them, but if you want to you can all around.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Devaluing of life? Plants are alive, too. How is it devaluing life to eat an animal but not a plant?


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Maybe we just have a different view of what conditions are horrific and what constitutes as torture.

There are small farms that may treat their animals very well and their lives are great until the day they die. They are the few and the lucky. They are not what you find in your grocery store. Many people here seek out private sources of meat and don't participate in the harm and degradation that produces the meat at the market.

The conventionally raised animals live in filth. They are sick and crippled. They generally never see sunlight until they are being transported to slaughter. They breathe the fumes from their waste all day every day. They don't know their mothers. Noone cares about their pain or well being, unless it's interefering with the bottom line.

Then they get to die, and it's a holocaust. The animals are herded, pushed through (even if they are unable to walk) and forced to hear all the screams of the dying animals before them. Many are hung upside down at some point, disorienting them even more. Not all perish right away and are just left to bleed to death.

Living in these conditions and being put to death unnaturally and before your time is horrific. Knowing that it is imminent and nothing you can do, no amount of struggle or begging will change the mind of the one controlling your fate as you hear the suffering of others as they are maimed and killed before you is torture.

What's your definition?


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Devaluing of life? Plants are alive, too. How is it devaluing life to eat an animal but not a plant?

A plant doesn't look at me...move in front me...etc. It doesn't appear to be living in the way that an animal does. JMO.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Nonetheless, there are people whose ethical considerations forebear them eating plants that are not 'fruit'; that is, meant to be eaten & passed through an animal's gut.

A head of lettuce is no more a 'gift of God' than a prey animal like a rabbit, under those standards. The lettuce does not want to be eaten. The lettuce will produce alkaloids to protect itself from being eaten, arguably as sentiently as my hens hiding from a hawk (speaking of which, I know people who don't eat fuzzy cute mammals and consider themselves vegetarians, although they eat chicken, because they don't think chickens are smart, which is another sort of specism. Some of my chickens are very bright creatures).

Grains, drupes, stone fruits, legumes- that is what they consider fit to eat.

We shouldn't dismiss their concerns anymore than those of veg*ans.

PS Re: "Regarding the "vegetables are alive too" debate, consider that fruit and vegetables will die over the winter, so I perceive them as gifts from God". Not, perennials don't die over the winter, biennials like crucifers, carrots are harvested a year before they would die, a _palm_ tree certainly doesn't perish until someone harvests its heart! Many plants will outlive you & I, if we don't eat them first.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

No different from saying "My DC LOVES apples!"

I mean, wtf?


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
if someone can visit a slaughterhouse and still eat meat with a passion i wonder about thier mental state...
isnt killing animals a red flag of something serious?
devaluing of life...

do you imply that all cultures from the beginning of time who have slaughtered their meat, including Native Americans, the Massai, the Inuits, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc are all seriously mentally ill?

really, I don't care what someone chooses for their own diet. but after studying extensively I believe omnivorous diets are most natural. I will not eat veal, or lamb, and I don't buy beef or chicken at public venues. I do buy meat at Whole Foods. I know their standards aren't perfect, but they're better than most commercial supermarkets. I am truly 100% comfortable with eating a mature animal that has been raised in humane conditions, fed high quality feed, and slaughtered with the least amount of pain. It's not pretty, it's not nice, and I totally get why people are upset about it- but the animal kingdom isn't nice either. And I'm an animal. I would kill an animal for food myself, in fact I'd prefer to, because that's the only way to truly ensure it was held to the highest standards of treatment, and I hope to have enough land for poultry and perhaps goats someday. DD has tried dark meat chicked a few times and liked it, but I try not to feed her much meat, I feel she should decide how much if any, and what types, of meat she would like to eat when she's older. I'm 100% fine if she decides to be vegetarian, but not vegan.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
do you imply that all cultures from the beginning of time who have slaughtered their meat, including Native Americans, the Massai, the Inuits, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc are all seriously mentally ill?

yeah im totally saying native americans are mentally ill







:

and i must have totally missed the navajo slaughter houses...
ive seen relatives "slaughter" thier meat and its nothing, absolutely nothing like modern day slaughterhouses.
and the living conditions are like night and day


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Devaluing of life? Plants are alive, too. How is it devaluing life to eat an animal but not a plant?

if you stop rationalizing ill respect you more


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

well, what you said was that killing animals was a sign of something serious. not specified to slaughterhouses- I get the clarification though.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

firefaery - That does fit the definition of horrific conditions & torture in my book. However, I don't believe it is the norm. Do you have any factual evidence that proves this is what happens 75% of the time? I don't mean the scary video from Peta, which you pretty much just described in your post. I mean actual research, reports, studies, surveys, etc. that prove not that it happens but that it is the norm. Maybe you could show me a copy of federal regulations about slaughterhouses. How many of the slaughterhouses in our country have you personally visitted? I haven't visitted any myself. I don't know exactly what goes on. You seem to be the more educated one so I'm relying on you to enlighten me.

That a plant doesn't look or move doesn't mean that it's not alive. It's basic science. There are kingdoms of life, and plants are one of them.

Quote:

if you stop rationalizing ill respect you more
I'm not here to earn your respect, just to try and understand the perspective of others. I'd respect you more if you were more rational, but I doubt that's going to make you change for me either.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
I do buy meat at Whole Foods. I know their standards aren't perfect, but they're better than most commercial supermarkets. I am truly 100% comfortable with eating a mature animal that has been raised in humane conditions, fed high quality feed, and slaughtered with the least amount of pain.


You may want to dig a bit deeper. Why do you think the conditions are humane? Organic refers to nothing more than the type of feed and/or drugs. It doesn't speak to conditions one bit. Maturity in this instance is generally less than one year. The feed is not biologically normal. The slaughter is no different.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Where would you suggest omnivores like us get our meat then?


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
You may want to dig a bit deeper. Why do you think the conditions are humane? Organic refers to nothing more than the type of feed and/or drugs. It doesn't speak to conditions one bit. Maturity in this instance is generally less than one year. The feed is not biologically normal. The slaughter is no different.

have YOU done research on the standards of Whole Foods? just wondering because if there is evidence that they lie about their standards, I do want to know. If they're actually lying and not holding their suppliers to these standards, it should be a huge scandal. it's not just about "organic" to me. otherwise I'd just go to the supermarket and buy organic. wf says it has standards beyond that.

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/prod...standards.html


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## Mighty Jalapeno (Oct 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
It absolutely is the norm. Really. Visit a slaughterhouse.

I have. It's not a thing like the Peta video at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I'm not here to earn your respect,

I think I love you (you too, Throkky!)


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

http://www.hfa.org/hot_topic/interview.html

http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvega...terhouses.html

http://www.organicconsumers.org/food...nfoods0705.cfm

http://www.awionline.org/pubs/Quarte...6_55_2p18b.htm

There are many omnis that get their meat straight from small farms. If you don't have one near you you can find them online. Many members can aid you in doing this.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mighty Jalapeno* 
I have. It's not a thing like the Peta video at all.

do tell! but- was it a large commercial one?

between the peta vid and The Jungle I don't know if I'd have the cohones to check one out IRL...


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Farm Animal and Meat Quality Standards

The Farm Animal and Meat Quality Standards are comprised of two tiers. All meat and poultry sold at Whole Foods Market must meet the Whole Foods Market Natural Meat and Poultry Standards. Our new Animal Compassionate Standards are the next generation of standards in the Whole Foods Market Farm Animal and Meat Quality Standards Program and will promote the transition to even higher levels of animal welfare.

These are new standards still being developed. That's great for all the animals it will help.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
do tell! but- was it a large commercial one?

between the peta vid and The Jungle I don't know if I'd have the cohones to check one out IRL...

That would be my question as well. I've never been to a large commercial one. The small ones are bad enough.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

the "Animal Compassionate Standards" is a work in progress and no, it doesn't apply yet. I'm referring to the standards they DO have in place.


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## Mighty Jalapeno (Oct 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
do tell! but- was it a large commercial one?

between the peta vid and The Jungle I don't know if I'd have the cohones to check one out IRL...

I went with Scouts when I was a kid in Vancouver. It was large and commercial, but it wasn't like the Peta video (maybe Canadians feel guilt more acutely? Who knows!) We didn't see the KILLING, for various reasons, but the facility was clean, the cows all grazed outside all day, had clean facilities (since all the manure was shipped to the Moneys Mushrooms barns down the highway, which, oddly enough, is where you vegans get your mushrooms from... cow poop from high-density cow farms).

I'm not saying that the cows aren't being exploited... let's face it, the common cow is the result of centuries of breeding to produce large, fast-developing, docile creatures for our meat consumption. We then cram them onto fallow farmland to get the last of the nutrients out of the soil, then poop new nrutrients in... then they are killed (at the place I was at, with cow-guns, which is as close to a fast, instantaneous death as you can get), and eventually become food. I have no moral qualms with that, for the various reasons stated here:

1.) I am a sociopath, so killing animals is fine (but you're all proud of my child-raising abilities)
2.) I delight in exploiting stupid animals (and yet, some of you are proud of how I help my son learn to read and do math)
3.) I enjoy the taste of animal flesh (as well as veggie burgers made from mushrooms grown in poop, which my vegetarian wife buys)


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## GiggleBirds (Oct 24, 2006)

This thread sure is tense, but let's not forget it was originally posted in the veggie forum. So please liken the original sentiment to one with which you can relate, be it circumcision, AP, whatever. For some of us, animals are not less than human in terms of their sentience, and therefore when we hear comments that, to us, seem insensitive, or even horrific, we will start threads like this.

That said, I enjoy intelligent debates and discussions, and think they are important.

As for my silly statement about the canibals, I was tired and caught up in the moment, and did not explain it properly. What I meant was, if everyone's opinion of what constitutes acceptable food sources is different, then why shouldn't a cannibal's rights be considered as well? Obviously overexaggerated, but stated to make the point that the animals you eat do NOT have a say in their demise, and the demise of their CHILDREN. And that, to me, is























No one would be laughing or beaming with pride if someone was all "Oh I just laughed so hard I dropped my foreskin cream!" on a circumcision issue, right?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Thank you for the links, although I am still waiting for that proof that what was portrayed in the frightening Peta video is the norm for slaughterhouses, evidence that 75% of the slaughterhouses in America have those conditions and procedures, etc.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mighty Jalapeno* 
(since all the manure was shipped to the Moneys Mushrooms barns down the highway, which, oddly enough, is where you vegans get your mushrooms from... cow poop from high-density cow farms).


Honestly, this thread would go alot more smoothly if everyone would stop assuming that all meat eaters eat factory farmed meat AND if no one assumed veg*ns are ignorant about where things come from and are unwittingly making baby cows die by eating mushrooms.









But, I wanted to pipe in and say that MY mushrooms come from my very own mushroom log (2 of them, in fact) growing in my basement. No factory farmed cow poop needed, so no one needs to be scandalized when my vegan sister has some mushroom marinara at my house, OK?


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey* 
Honestly, this thread would go alot more smoothly if everyone would stop assuming that all meat eaters eat factory farmed meat AND if no one assumed veg*ns are ignorant about where things come from and are unwittingly making baby cows die by eating mushrooms.









Basically the thread wouldn't exist if everyone stopped assuming that omnis don't know where their meat comes from and don't have any problems explaining it to their children.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 
Basically the thread wouldn't exist if everyone stopped assuming that omnis don't know where their meat comes from and don't have any problems explaining it to their children.









:

Ya'll are preaching to the choir here. Compared to greater society, the percentage of MDC omni's who don't know or care to know about the social and political issues surrounding the production of meat is small. Many, many of us have chosen to pay the premium required to aquire food from animals that we can *see* grazing on grass, sleeping in spotlessly clean, warm barns, and that go to small local abbatoires that are open about thier practices.

Furthermore, ya'll are never going to convince people of your intellectual superiority as long as you keep using PETA as your resource. They're about as reliable as, say, the USDA's opposite message. There's no question that they seek out the very worst example of anything they're trying to disparage and try to tell people that it is the norm. Slaughterhouses may be dirty, and they may treat their employees like dogs. But, most of them do not torture the animals up to their death because that results in un-saleable meat. It's called "black cutting" meat, and it's unpalatable and it rots very quickly. No slaughterhouse, no matter what their morals, takes that financial risk, except maybe with animals slated for dog food.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Why the hostility? This is bizarre. "Everyone" and "y'all" us vegs do not feel the same about everything, just like I'm quite confident all omnis don't either. People have asked questions and they've been answered.

I think it's great that there are omnis on MDC that choose to be very critical of where their meat and dairy comes from. I applaud the effort it takes. I wish everyone did that. Not sure why there needs to be an "us" versus "them" thing going on here.

moonfirefaery - I have no idea at this point what you are after or why you even asked the question you originally did as it seems you don't really want to read the answers. Once again I'll summarize: Yes plants are alive, animals are alive. Plants may have feelings, no one knows, but if they do it's less apparent. Animals eat plants. Some animals, like cow, eat a LOT of plant. If you support raising animals for slaughter then you support those animals eating plants and then killing those animals and eating them. There is a chain of death there. If you just ate the plant directly that's less death. It's pretty simple. You don't need to agree, no one is asking you to, you wanted to know why and several people have answered why. You've already established that you don't care either way about the feelings of the plants or the animals so why do you keep harping on this?

Regarading the slaughter houses - if you want to know what happens in them then please take a tour. I encourage you to take one. Please. It wasn't a PETA video that made me go veg, it was a tour of "one of the best dairy farms in the state". You may have a different feeling and that's fine but at least you will have made a fully informed decision.

Mighty Jalapeno has taken a tour and is fine with eating meat. That's his choice. He's not here making excuses or asking people to talk to trees - he's saying hey he's seen what happens and he's cool with it and will gladly discuss it while chowing on a burger. I respect that even if I don't agree with it.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I explained already that I'm trying to understand the point of view. I am reading the answers, and I am continuing to ask questions because I have yet to fully comprehend this perspective. I'm starting to think perhaps the main difference between us is that I view eating meat, vegetables, etc. as part of the chain of life, while you view it as part of the chain of death...which is pretty much the same thing, as both are part of existance. I've never said that I don't care either way about the feelings of plants or animals, just that I think both of their feelings should be respected equally and don't understand why one would be valued more than the other. Yes, you have answered my questions, but no, I'm not getting it yet--hence the reason I continue in this discussion.

Visitting a slaughterhouse will only tell me what goes on in that slaughterhouse, not what the norm is. The claim is being made here that the PETA video displays the conditions of most slaughterhouses. Visitting one or even a few isn't going to validate or disprove that claim, which was the entire point of my asking for some proof that those horrific conditions of abuse and torture were what goes on in the majority of slaughter houses.

For the record, I believe I know what goes on in slaughterhouses. I don't have to have been in one to hear what others who have been in them say about them, and I don't just mean Mighty Jalapeno. Our market is regulated by the government. There's a law about how many maggots can be in the tomatoes used to make ketchup. I'm sure that the meat industry is regulated somewhat as well. Those unclean conditions of the PETA video don't make any sense whatsoever, as animals raised in a filthy environment aren't likely to be as tasty or as healthy, and wouldn't that make the animal farmers less money? I know that the animals are raised, fed, herded up, then killed, and I am fine with it.

For me, it's not 'animals or plants.' It's not that I don't care about their feelings, just that I value all life equally. Either I'm going to chose not to eat either because they are both alive and feel, or I'm going to chose to eat both. I think it's a good point that killing plants is less death, though, and like I said, I am starting to understand. It is little comments like that, rather than the bulk of the answers I'm getting, that are helping me understand the stance some of you take.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

MFF - Just wanted to explain that I wasn't trying to be snarky when I said you didn't care about he feelings of plants or animals, I was going off this quote:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
. I'm not worried about the feelings of anything, really.

I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote it.

Yes visiting a slaughterhouse will not give you a total story of what goes on in every slaughterhouse. You would have to visit them all for that - I thought it was a big much to ask you to do that







But you could take that personal experience and combine it with Peta videos and experience from humane farmers and probably find the truth somewhere in the midst of all of that evidence.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Not being worried doesn't mean that I don't care. The point of that statement was really that feelings aren't the reason why I do/don't eat something and that I'm not going to advocate eating/not eating something based on feelings. I'm not trying to defend the feelings of plants, just stating that they have them too, and I'm not going to respect the feelings of animals but not plants. It's respect and equality I'm worried about not the feelings, though I would prefer to eat meat from animals slaughtered humanely.

I know the truth is somewhere in the middle, in the midst of all the evidence, in the center of all the view points. That's why I don't trust the Peta video, because they exaggerate. I don't think most slaughterhouses treat their animals THAT badly. Of course, no one wants to be raised just to be herded up and killed. It's not very nice...but it's not nice to kill carrots either, IMO. Yet we do it because we have to survive while striving to live in harmony with the world. For some that means we shouldn't kill animals, and for others like me that means respecting all life and never taking more than you need, plant or animal.


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## GiggleBirds (Oct 24, 2006)

I am sorry if I have come off as judgemental or like I think I'm superior. That was not my intention. Honestly, I just get really sad when I think of any suffering whatsoever. If I find a bug in my home, for instance, I will spend as long as it takes to get it outside safely so that it won't die in my home. I am just really sensitive, and that is the core issue to me. Not about judging anyone. The majority of my friends are meat eaters and I love them and though I don't feel right about them eating meat, I still love them!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Where would you suggest omnivores like us get our meat then?

My steer was raised two miles away from us, slaughtered here, and then hung and wrapped by a local butcher. I was invited to the slaughter but didn't have time. I'll go to the next one and give a report. It should be January or early February. The butcher also offered to give my 4-year-old a full tour of the facility when he realized Frederick wanted to visit the cold storage. We passed. I think he would be traumatized at this point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
GF-love the avatar! Or should I say, jacket? Exciting!

Thanks firefaery. It's not the jacket actually. Still working on that.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

"My steer was raised two miles away from us, slaughtered here, and then hung and wrapped by a local butcher. I was invited to the slaughter but didn't have time. I'll go to the next one and give a report. It should be January or early February. The butcher also offered to give my 4-year-old a full tour of the facility when he realized Frederick wanted to visit the cold storage. We passed. I think he would be traumatized at this point."

I think this is the way to do it if you're going to do it. I am not vegan. I do eat some meat. What we eat is locally raised, pastured meat. I know the people very well, and they love their animals. I am working on cutting out meat from my diet, but until that day comes this is the best I know I can do. For health and ethical reasons.

It is not convenient, but it isn't negotiable.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
My steer was raised two miles away from us, slaughtered here, and then hung and wrapped by a local butcher. I was invited to the slaughter but didn't have time. I'll go to the next one and give a report. It should be January or early February. The butcher also offered to give my 4-year-old a full tour of the facility when he realized Frederick wanted to visit the cold storage. We passed. I think he would be traumatized at this point.

That would be a great trip ... I think I would love to see that.

And to this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
It wasn't a PETA video that made me go veg, it was a tour of "one of the best dairy farms in the state". You may have a different feeling and that's fine but at least you will have made a fully informed decision.

We actually have been to what I would consider the best dairy in our state ... it is an amazing place and actually only strengthened our desire to drink the milk produced there.

And sorry for jumping in so late here. But yea, my boys (well, the 5 year old and the 3 year old in 3 weeks that is) know where their meat (and milk) come from and love to eat it. We talk about animals being a part of the food chain, treating them properly, and not wasting because we *can*.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders* 
That would be a great trip ... I think I would love to see that.

Well, you are officially invited since it is part your steer too.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force* 
Well, you are officially invited since it is part your steer too.









woo hoo!!!


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## Mighty Jalapeno (Oct 27, 2006)

EDIT: Retyping this because DS thought hitting backspace would get me to race cars with him faster....

The 1/4 of a cow I will be getting in a few weeks is, at this moment, eating dead corn in the front field of my in-laws place. It will be getting shipped off to Mike, the butcher, in a little while, and divvied up amongst members of our family. I don't think I've actually bought beef in the store (except for smokies and sausages) for three years, since I get between 1/4 and 1/2 a cow every year or so, from the in-laws. I still buy pork chops (because I like them on the bbq) and chicken (because it's one of the few foods that everyone in the house will eat) from the store, but even that's not very often, and as soon as the farm gets pigs (next year, I hope!) and wild turkeys (also next year!), then 100% of my meat will be coming from the in-laws farm, which we visit almost every week. We see the animals, we feed the animals, and every now and then we chase the animals with paddles because they're in the wrong field. As soon as Throkky's dad gets around to making his smoker, I'll even be getting my smokies and sausages from the farm!

I know it's not feasible for EVERYONE to do this, because there's not enough arable land around any major urban centre for EVERYONE to get their meat this way, but that just raises another of my many concerns... cities being this big. But that's a different argument.







It can be summed up quite well by Saint William of Hicks:

Quote:

There's too many f*** people in the world. Someone needs to say that by the way. I'm tired of this, "Hey hey aren't we the coolest. Humans are so neat." Too many of ya! Quit rutting, just for a f*** day. Let's work out this _food/air_ deal. Then go back to your rutting.
Yay meat! (Sorry, I had to)


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Happy Birthday, Mighty Jalapeno!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I am one who loved meat as a kid (and still do). I grew up around farms and a friend of the family used our barn, fields, etc. to keep his animals until he could get his own place. I knew that some of the cows, geese, chickens, goats, rabbits, etc. in the field/barn would be in our freezer because that's how he paid "rent" to my parents. I helped feed and water them. It didn't bother me.

My kids like some meat. We have visited the farms where we get meat, played with the goats, saw the cows, etc. They understand (well, not the 2 yo) where it is coming from and why we go to the trouble to buy meat from those farms in particular.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Just wanted to let people know that I'm unsubbing from this thread so if you ask me a question or quote me and I don't answer, I'm not ignoring you I'm just not reading here!


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## kyndmamaof4 (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy* 

Mostly, I guess the point of this post/rant is that kids are not told what meat is. How it's made, etc. because of the parents other agendas. Because it's WAY easier to learn to NOT feel for the food in that way. It's a learned behavior to "not think about it" (as many meat eaters will tell me when I ask HOW they can eat it if the DO understand it)

I have seen this before, but I _really_ read it this time and I feel like I need to respond...Just what "agenda" do I have as a parent? I have seen a chicken killed and cleaned, by my GM, and then she baked it right up..and it was yummy. It was a little yucky, but whatever







I admit it wasn't the most delicious thing I have ever seen, but I would hardly say that eating meat, or giving it to your child is an "agenda". If my kids eat meat then that's fine, if they choose not to, than that's OK too. I happen to beleive that as humans we are Omnivores...as we have both kinds of teeth...so for me, ethically raised animals...organic, free range, naturally fed animals are of course the most humanely raised, and most likely also slaughtered that way too. Animals eat other animals all over the spectrum of the food chain...does that make them wrong too? Do they also have "agendas"?

I'll BBL, to add more, but DD needs to nurse...

Kaara


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