# I've revised my views on spanking.



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I used to think spanking was only acceptable when it occured between consenting adults, in a sexual context. Well, something happened this weekend to make me think that spanking kids can be OK in certain situations.

Yesterday, my DDs' friend had her 11th birthday. In my presence, one friend gave her (the birthday girl) 12 spanks (1 for each year and one for good luck.) Then I learned that my DD had already given her 145 spankings (12 X 12, plus one for good luck.) Since she was smiling while talking about the number of birthday spankings she received, it doesn't seem to have caused her any harm.

Now I beleive that spanking is OK between adults in a sexual or playful context, or between peers in a playful context. It's still NEVER appropriate as a form of discipline!!


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I have conflicting feelings on birthday spankings. I always got them, but never really wanted them. It felt like an excuse to spank me, and I didn't like that. Maybe if it's all in good fun and the birthday person is ok with it... I've never done this with any of my dc, and I don't plan to start it. I don't allow it others to do it either, especially if the child doesn't like it or wants it to stop.


----------



## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Birthdayspankings?

I have never, ever heard of this.. What is the purpose? And why does it have to be a spanking, and not a hug/a stroke on the cheek etc.?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious. As a Norwegian, this is not something I have ever heard of.


----------



## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

I always got birthday spankings and was actually happy about it. I even ASKED for them









Keep in mind, they were always too soft to actually hurt--so there was no pain, just what I had hoped would be good luck. But, yes, I agree that should only be given with consent of the birthday girl/boy.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

We had birthday spankings growing up.... I always dreaded them, but I was spanked for real. I didn't like the "ha ha it's scary but I'm not going to hurt you THIS time" vibe.

I think they would be a fun thing if I'd never been spanked for punishment, though. I remember my brownie troop did a "spanking machine" for birthdays -- everybody stood in a line with their feet wide apart, and the birthday girl crawled through the "tunnel" formed by everybody's legs... and everybody gave her a little swat on the tush. The fun was crawling as fast as you could through there.

Oh yeah, and a weird one -- my elementary school PE teacher (male) gave all the kids birthday spankings. I always thought that was a little creepy, in hindsight...


----------



## bobica (May 31, 2004)

we had birthday punches. they stunk.







: i think i'ts a weird thing to do in general.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I didn't like birthday spankings...my parents didn't do them, but my older brother did once. We usually did birthday "bumps", and I didn't mind those at all.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Yeah, my family would always "threaten" the birthday spanks, I didn't even appreciate getting teased about it, weirded me out then and still does.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Am I the only one who think it seems kind of creepy?


----------



## JeDeeLenae (Feb 5, 2006)

We used to get the birthday spankings from our mom. They never hurt and we always laughed about it. It wasn't done in a demeaning way or in a sexual, creepy way. I think if it's done in fun and the kid is actually not scared or threatened, they're totally acceptable. It's not like it's punishment... Some people just don't know how to give them I guess.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't give my own kids "birthday spankings-" this was something they decided to do to each other, in a completely consentual way.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

My parents didn't give birthday spankings, but my Nana did









She'd chase us around the house while we ran screeching and laughing









My siblings and I treated each other to birthday noogies. YOUCH


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I was a little worried about you when I saw the thread title, Ruthla.


----------



## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

What the hell is a birthday spanking? How did that get started?


----------



## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

This was not practiced in my family. But I experienced it often as a young adult. Normally the boys did this to the girls. By the time this started (around age 12), there was already a sexual undercurrent involved.


----------



## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Am I the only one who think it seems kind of creepy?

No I think it's creepy too.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I remember just hearing about birthday spankings and being terrified they might be real!


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

If the kids thought it up themselves and its consensual, I guess there's nothing wrong with that. But actually birthday spankings do bother me a little because it's a sort of normalization that spanking is something that's done to a child. Kind of like how some people have expressed objections to baby bottles being iconic of infancy, it seems like birthday spankings and "pretend/play" spankings suggest that being spanked is iconic of childhood. If that makes any sense.

Incidentally, consenting-adult spankings don't necessarily have to be sexual in nature. Sometimes it's just recreational.


----------



## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

We did it, also the birthday ear tugs.









My 3rd grade teacher did the birthday spanking machine, chinaKat. He was an amazing teacher & one of my favorites.

Sometimes I do it to Joe if I think of it but not hard. He thinks it is funny.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

This "tradition" came about when women were put completely under to have a baby and the baby would be so lethargic when s/he was born, they would spank it to make it cry and make sure they had not drugged it to death. You get the spanking to remind you of heavily medicated births, I guess.

I think it is one of the creepiest traditions I've ever had the displeasure to experience.

Sorry, Ruthla... gotta disagree on this one.


----------



## jkds2005 (Mar 24, 2006)

I did experience this on occasion as a child and had completely forgotten about it! As much 'fun' as I remember it being, seems weird and creepy to me now.


----------



## juju's mom (Mar 30, 2005)

I had never had one until highschool but then ones I got then were intended to hurt. So no, I do not like them.


----------



## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

I was spanked as a child, and I also got "birthday spankings" and let me say, I hated it! It was scary, as a pp said, because it's something that is usually a punishment and what if it hurts like usual? It was also very humiliating to me. To be thrown over a knee in front of friends and family and be hit...well, that was awful. And it was confusing as heck too! I mean, here are all these people who are supposed to be celebrating the fact that I was born, yet they're all punishing me??? WTF? We don't spank ds in any way...playfully intended or not. And I will never let well intentioned relatives birtday spank him either.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I absolutely disagree that it's OK. I mean, I wouldn't forbid kids from doing it, but I'd explain the horrible origins of that practice.

Besides, my dad was abusive, and like to "joke" on my birthday about it.







I've noticed in my years that abusers seem to like opportunities to validate their creepiness.

---

That said, in my martial arts practice, we throw someone on their birthdays the number of times they are old. But that's a way of keeping them in good shape!


----------



## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

We used to get them when I was a kid too. It was always in fun, where Dad would act like he was really warming his arm up and then just "pat" you on the rear ("with an added pinch to grow an inch"). It was all in fun, never anything scary. I guess it depends on the context and the family history too.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Yucky. I'd never heard of it before but the idea makes my skin crawl.


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

Excuse me but I too have never heard of such idiotic and brutal practice. I now understand where sexual sickness of this kind comes from. Children learning to associate this sensation with pleasure. What a disguasting distortion. Sorry, I had to say this. If you think it is OK in sexuality, oh my, give me a break. Psychologists consider it mental illness.
I would never touch a child (or adult) body without their permission and without it being joy. If they think being hit is joy I would hurry to the psychiatrist.


----------



## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
Excuse me but I too have never heard of such idiotic and brutal practice. I now understand where sexual sickness of this kind comes from. Children learning to associate this sensation with pleasure. What a disguasting distortion. Sorry, I had to say this. If you think it is OK in sexuality, oh my, give me a break. Psychologists consider it mental illness.
I would never touch a child (or adult) body without their permission and without it being joy. If they think being hit is joy I would hurry to the psychiatrist.

That is a _little_ extreme. I think you may get flamed for that one.







Not by me, I'm just saying...

I DO agree that play spanking a child COULD lead to molestation IF that was in the spanker's mind to begin with. When we had bday spankings, that was the furthest thing from anyone's mind.

And there is a big difference between an adult spanking a child against her will, & two consenting adults spanking one another in the bedroom. IMO.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

We got "Frog Punches" in lieu of the "Birthday Spankings". They hurt so bad, but you did it because...well, because it was just done to ya.

The kids line up, taking turns and would take their index finger/fist and punch you in the arm really hard. They are supposed to punch you hard enough until a "frog appears"









Our parents would just laugh and laugh and say "oh! no frog, try again"...


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
Now I beleive that spanking is OK between adults in a sexual or playful context, or between peers in a playful context. It's still NEVER appropriate as a form of discipline!!

The word "peers" is loaded. I regard this kind of group behaviour as coercive -- because of the power of the group.

I hadn't heard of this being done in a very long time, and when I've told people about it (mostly younger than me) as a story of something I remember from my childhood, they mostly have given me the ole' fisheye, so I assumed it was no longer done.

The first time I saw it was at a B'day party when I was 6. I refused to do it. The birthday girl had to run a gantlet between two lines of girls from our class.







I refused to take part. When I started getting stick for refusing about a year later, I got even more stubborn. We did not spank at home and I thought this was repulsive.

Much later, there were others who would sidle up to me and tell me how they agreed. Of course, only miss-stubborn-guts-me would actually take a public stand.









I still don't think it is alright. Aside from the issue of the recipient, there is the issue in being coerced to _do_ something.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Sweeties1Angel*
What the hell is a birthday spanking? How did that get started?

I assumed it was some twisted, semi-Calvinist thing that makes sure you don't unequivocally enjoy "your" day.

No idea, really.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
Excuse me but I too have never heard of such idiotic and brutal practice. I now understand where sexual sickness of this kind comes from. Children learning to associate this sensation with pleasure. What a disguasting distortion. Sorry, I had to say this. If you think it is OK in sexuality, oh my, give me a break. Psychologists consider it mental illness.
I would never touch a child (or adult) body without their permission and without it being joy. If they think being hit is joy I would hurry to the psychiatrist.











... bites tongue in about five different places ....

I'll have to disagree with you, Ayala, on many counts.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

We have always done one swat per year of life, plus one to grow on and a pinch to grow an inch







No one's ever expressed displeasure. There is always lots of laughing and sqealing....and there's no pain involved, just patting.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I always thought that birthday spankings were a way to turn around something that was usually a negative experience and turn it into fun. But of course this depends on punitive spanking being strongly ingrained in the culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
Excuse me but I too have never heard of such idiotic and brutal practice. I now understand where sexual sickness of this kind comes from. Children learning to associate this sensation with pleasure. What a disguasting distortion. Sorry, I had to say this. If you think it is OK in sexuality, oh my, give me a break. Psychologists consider it mental illness.
I would never touch a child (or adult) body without their permission and without it being joy. If they think being hit is joy I would hurry to the psychiatrist.

I don't agree with you, but you're certainly right that most psychologists would.


----------



## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I remember birthday spankings. I don't think my family did them, but I remember them like in school, at summer camp. My parents did spank me occasionally, but not often. I never associated the birthday spankings with that. I always found them fun.

That said, clearly some kids *don't* enjoy them. I see no reason not to use them for a child who finds them to be a fun tradition. But, you really need to be respectful and not do them with a child who finds them unpleasant or creepy or anything else negative.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

We had an elementary PE teacher who would take kids into the closet on their birthday and pretend to be punching them (Stomping his foot for "sound effect" while counting out the punches). Yeah. Great fun.

He only did that to kids who were his "buddies"--the athetically gifted boys. And they seemed to enjoy the attention and the hoax. But it still frightened me (even though I knew it was a show).

So, I guess I've heard of birthday beatings....but not birthday spankings.

I like the teachers who would do the "ear tug", personally.


----------



## winonamom2be (Nov 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
Excuse me but I too have never heard of such idiotic and brutal practice. I now understand where sexual sickness of this kind comes from. Children learning to associate this sensation with pleasure. What a disguasting distortion. Sorry, I had to say this. If you think it is OK in sexuality, oh my, give me a break. Psychologists consider it mental illness.
I would never touch a child (or adult) body without their permission and without it being joy. If they think being hit is joy I would hurry to the psychiatrist.

actually, i am married to a psychologist and you are wrong...

**EDITED TO REMOVE OFF-TOPIC AND NON-PERMITTED TEXT EXPLAINING WRONGNESS OFF ABOVE STATEMENT**

...all i have to say is: sheesh, lighten up.

i think birthday spankings are harmless as long as the recipient wants them. unwanted = abuse.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Please, let's keep the discussion focused the original topic









Please remember the specific goal of the _Gentle Discipline_ forum: *to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.*and from the User Agreement: *Discussions of a sexual nature should be within the realm of topics inherent to Mothering discussions such as sex after delivery, sex and the family bed, etc.*

If anyone has any concerns or questions about this, please PM me, rather than posting to the thread. Thanks so much!


----------



## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I never liked birthday spankings, they felt like a violation of my body. I still get creeped out about them and don't even like watching them. I wouldn't say that it is something that no one should do since some people don't associate spanking with fear and violation, but I wouldn't go out of my way to make a game out of hitting even on birthdays.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

RE:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
We have always done one swat per year of life, plus one to grow on and a pinch to grow an inch







No one's ever expressed displeasure. There is always lots of laughing and sqealing....and there's no pain involved, just patting.

and

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
I remember birthday spankings. I don't think my family did them, but I remember them like in school, at summer camp. My parents did spank me occasionally, but not often. I never associated the birthday spankings with that. I always found them fun.

That said, clearly some kids *don't* enjoy them. I see no reason not to use them for a child who finds them to be a fun tradition. But, you really need to be respectful and not do them with a child who finds them unpleasant or creepy or anything else negative.









I'm really curious as to how, exactly, you make sure that the Birthday Honoree is respected...instead of pressured by the group expecting this to be done?

I'm also curious how the same is done for the other kids in the group. What if someone doesn't want to spank? So, they just manage to be a slight bit behind time with the others? But pretend to hit?







Or they don't hit as hard? (Which is, essentially, a physical lie.) And what about the kids at the party who might really like hitting hard?

If I had a party with a group of people who expected to be able to do this, would I have to go along with it to be a good host? Would I get to say "You can spank me, but _you_ can't 'cause you hit too hard"? You know that the person receiving the spankings doesn't know if they were too hard or not until _after_ they are given.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*
RE:

and








I'm really curious as to how, exactly, you make sure that the Birthday Honoree is respected...instead of pressured by the group expecting this to be done?

I'm also curious how the same is done for the other kids in the group. What if someone doesn't want to spank? So, they just manage to be a slight bit behind time with the others? But pretend to hit?







Or they don't hit as hard? (Which is, essentially, a physical lie.) And what about the kids at the party who might really like hitting hard?

If I had a party with a group of people who expected to be able to do this, would I have to go along with it to be a good host? Would I get to say "You can spank me, but _you_ can't 'cause you hit too hard"? You know that the person receiving the spankings doesn't know if they were too hard or not until _after_ they are given.

In our family kids aren't spanking kids. It's one family member that does it. The birthday kid chooses who to get their birthday spanking from. One person swats and the whole group together counts the swats. It's considered good luck. None of the children has expressed a negative emotion with this practice. If they did, we would honor that. In a family where you strive to honor eachother's emotions and needs a child shouldn't be scared to decline a birthday spanking. Birthdays are big joking occasions in our family. We sing Happy Birthday, then just as the person goes to blow out the candles we add another verse, until all verses have been sung. In our family I think there are 5 or 6 verses to Happy Birthday.







By the end everyone is laughing and the birthday boy/girl is laughing so hard they have a hard time blowing out the candles.


----------



## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
I was a little worried about you when I saw the thread title, Ruthla.









:

We didn't do birthday spankings, but we joked about them... I think if my ILs tried to do them to dd I'd have to tan their hides







Joking of course, but their ears would sure be full...


----------



## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*







I'm really curious as to how, exactly, you make sure that the Birthday Honoree is respected...instead of pressured by the group expecting this to be done?

I'm also curious how the same is done for the other kids in the group. What if someone doesn't want to spank? So, they just manage to be a slight bit behind time with the others? But pretend to hit?







Or they don't hit as hard? (Which is, essentially, a physical lie.) And what about the kids at the party who might really like hitting hard?

As I remember them, it was only one person doing the spanking, not everyone in the group. However, I agree with you - it is hard to determine who is comfortable with the practice and who isn't, and prevent the peer pressure thing. That's pretty much why I don't do them to my own kids, even though I don't see them as inherently evil.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

No birthday spankings here. Around here we did "birthday bumps". I'd always run from my cousins so I didn't have to get the bumps as they hurt my twiggy arms!


----------



## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Eh. I tend not to overthink. I give my kids birthday spankings. I just asked my son about how he feels. He said, "I kinda like them. They make me laugh. I'm always excited, like whoooaaaa! In fact, I want one right now!"









When I was a kid, we never got Bday spankings, but everytime we visited my gramma the first thing she did was put us over her knee. It was the "general purpose" spanking. I looked forward to that tradition more than anything else.

Another DS quote, "They (spankings) are fun if you're not in trouble." For the record, we don't spank him.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

We were given the "fake" birthday spankings the light no pain type.. I found them completely embarressing and humiliating and will never even sufggest it to my child/children.

Deanna


----------



## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I brought this discussion up with some other friends and we've come to the conclusion that it depends on the experiences of each as to how we feel about them.

There are some that were BEAT by peers, others that were just 'patted' in fun by family members with giggles abound.

I think it also depends on if you were abused in any way and associate it with that too.


----------



## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

We had birthday spankings when I was a kid. Of course, they were so soft I could barely feel them, much less be hurt by them. I think birthday spankings are a silly tradition, but as harmless as when I play the bongos on DS's butt when I change him.







He thinks it's funny, by the way.

I do have to wonder, though, if the concept of birthday spankings perpetuates the idea that spankings are just a part of childhood.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane*
I do have to wonder, though, if the concept of birthday spankings perpetuates the idea that spankings are just a part of childhood.

Yup.


----------



## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

velochic, that is fabulous that you made that connection between drugged births and spanking.
she said:

"*This "tradition" came about when women were put completely under to have a baby and the baby would be so lethargic when s/he was born, they would spank it to make it cry and make sure they had not drugged it to death*. "

Did everyone get that? I don't think I'll be birthday spanking but if I'm ever around one, it'll serve as another time/place/trigger to mention Natural Birth!!!

Okay maybe that's one for the Activism forum!


----------



## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

we got birthday bumps too, not spankings.
i wouldn't have been okay with spankings.
bumps were fun!


----------



## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I hate the idea of b-day spankings personally but dh, being old school, gives birthday spanking anyway. And it goes without saying, they don't hurt. The kids kind of get akick out out it, I hate to admit. They don't get spankings so I think for them it's a curiousity issue.


----------



## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

I regard this kind of group behaviour as coercive -- because of the power of the group.
I agree with this alot. Peer groups have a *lot* of power in the middle school years, and I think that it's a little disturbing that kids would consent to be spanked (even if it's just playfully) so that they fit in. In fact, I would argue that it's rituals like these that groom kids to go along with hazing rituals later on in high school and college.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I think my problem with "fun" spankings is that it's a dominance behavior. It's saying "you're lower than me on the food chain so I can hit you." I'm just not OK with that at all.


----------



## Catrinel (Jul 18, 2005)

What an interesting discussion. I'd never heard of birthday spankings or bumps before.


----------



## Quagmire (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog*
I think my problem with "fun" spankings is that it's a dominance behavior. It's saying "you're lower than me on the food chain so I can hit you." I'm just not OK with that at all.

Yeah, totally.

I had 5 uncles, the youngest 3 of whom were relatively close to me in age. In addition to birthday spankings (usually capturing me and spanking not-so-gently) they also had a fun game called "free smacks" where they'd grab me as I was running by, smack my butt and invite others sitting nearby to do the same while I was held down. This fun tradition was carried down through all 21 first cousins - when the uncles got too old for that crap some of the older cousins took over for them.

What a great way to celebrate







:


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

In school, they also used to do b-day "frogs" which were really hard punches to the upper arm that were done hard enough to leave bruises. It wasn't until I just read about the dominance behavior that it just clicked for me, other than the pain aspect, why I had such a problem with the birthday physicality. ITA, this is a fascinating topic.


----------



## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

I had forgotten birthday spankings existed until the other day when I decided to start reading my 3-year-old son the Little House on the Prairie books. Whoops!! In Little House in the Big Woods, there are constant mentions of beating children with straps, tanning hides, hitting with switches, etc. Four-year-old Laura is beaten by good, hearty, loving, fiddle-playing Pa for slapping Mary in the face. Then the next day (?), she wakes up and it's her birthday and Pa gives her 5 spanks, and one to grow on.

I was amazed at how violent this book was--it had been years since I opened it. I was constantly skipping things as I read.


----------



## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

Hmmm...my family used to give birthday spankings and I don't remember any of them until the man who married my aunt came into our lives.

Then they took a lewd and lascivious turn and I can't believe that no one in my immediate family didn't realize it.

I don't know, between kids, if it's consensual, ok? I still have funny feeling about them.

I guess I can only wholeheartedly agree with Ruthla's point about spankings being ok between consenting adults as a sex act.


----------



## esk8partist (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobica*
we had birthday punches.

me too. never from parents. but from eager peers.


----------



## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2*
In Little House in the Big Woods, there are constant mentions of beating children with straps, tanning hides, hitting with switches, etc. Four-year-old Laura is beaten by good, hearty, loving, fiddle-playing Pa for slapping Mary in the face. Then the next day (?), she wakes up and it's her birthday and Pa gives her 5 spanks, and one to grow on.

I was amazed at how violent this book was--it had been years since I opened it. I was constantly skipping things as I read.

Yep. Along with the racist stuff against Native Americans, the hitting is a BIG reason I'm going to wait until dd is much older (she's 4 now) to read those books to her.


----------



## Helen White (Aug 19, 2004)

This is an interesting thread. I'm one of the ones with fond childhood memories of birthday "spankings" (right down to the one extra to grow on and "a pinch to grow an inch"). But really, my paternal grandparents were the only ones who gave me birthday spankings, usually my grandma. My grandma was one of the gentlest people I knew. My memories of the birthday spankings were that they were playful and fun, and I felt like their reason for doing them was because they loved me and were giving me special attention on my birthday.

I think I would hesitate to say that birthday spankings are ALWAYS wrong and creepy. I mean, sure, the origins that have been pointed out are rather creepy, but the origins of MANY traditions are probably similarly strange. I haven't thought to give my kids birthday spankings, but if I had, and if it was a family tradition they were fond of, I would just let our family give them a new meaning.

I can understand how birthday spankings can be downright abusive if they're done without regard to the feelings of the child. But that would be true of any birthday tradition, whether it be "birthday kisses" or "birthday tickles" or even blowing out birthday candles (what about a kid who is scared of the candles and doesn't want the cake anywhere near him/her?). Birthday traditions (and any other kind of family traditions) can be a really healthy thing. If people are respectful and attentive to the child's feelings, and no one is being harmed, I think most birthday traditions, no matter how odd they might sound, are a good thing.


----------



## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Here's a somewhat heretical idea. This just occurred to me a few minutes ago. I'm still pondering it, haven't really fleshed this thought out entirely yet, but thought I'd throw it into the mix to shake things up









I recently read Lawrence Cohen's Playful Parenting. I was stricken by some of his ideas about how play, including violent play, between two children or between a child and an adult, is how a child experiments with baser emotions such as aggression. Violent play allows a child to learn to channel his/her strength and aggressive emotions, and to learn to deal with other people's aggression. Likewise, tickling allows a child to experiment with being in control vs. out of control (and he was quick to admonish that one should always pay close attention to a child's cues during tickling to make sure that you never do truely remove control from the child).

Couldn't we argue that play dominance games, like birthday spankings, have a similar purpose? Birthday traditions already play games with who's "in control" - allowing special priviledges to the child that the child may not have the rest of the year. For instance, lots of extra food treats, sleeping late, not having to help wash the dishes, etc. So, couldn't we argue that a birthday spanking continues to play with the playful dominance ideas that are already present in birthday celebrations? You're extra dominant, you're extra dominant, whoops! You're not in charge for a minute!, oh, you're back to being extra dominant!


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
... Birthday traditions already play games with who's "in control" - allowing special priviledges to the child that the child may not have the rest of the year. For instance, lots of extra food treats, sleeping late, not having to help wash the dishes, etc. So, couldn't we argue that a birthday spanking continues to play with the playful dominance ideas that are already present in birthday celebrations? You're extra dominant, you're extra dominant, whoops! You're not in charge for a minute!, oh, you're back to being extra dominant!

But that sounds to me like reminding someone how they're really _not_ in control. IE: It is a tool of the Authority to remind someone that they really have no rights compared to those older, bigger, or just more numerous.


----------



## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Oh, and I recently borrowed Little House on the Prairie from the library to read to my 4yo. I'd remembered a few details, like it rang a bell that they got spanked. But I totally didn't remember how much of a theme it was, nor did I remember the racism. I read like a chapter and a half to her and couldn't go on; I read a little more to myself and returned it. Oy. Yuk. What really shocked me was how many people here on MDC are utter devotees of those books!


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have a question for those who either enjoyed the spankings or didn't mind them. How exactly were they done? Did you stand up while someone spanked your behind, or what exactly? What did the adult or person say or do that made it seem un-creepy?

I'm just having a hard time thinking of this in a way that wouldn't be dominant or creepy behavior... maybe it's just my own issues though. Which are too numerous to count!


----------



## Helen White (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I have a question for those who either enjoyed the spankings or didn't mind them. How exactly were they done? Did you stand up while someone spanked your behind, or what exactly? What did the adult or person say or do that made it seem un-creepy?

I'm just having a hard time thinking of this in a way that wouldn't be dominant or creepy behavior... maybe it's just my own issues though. Which are too numerous to count!









Let's see...as far as I remember, my grandma would say, "Have you had your birthday spanking yet?" I would say no, and she'd say, "How old are you now?" and usually act surprised and pretend she didn't believe me when I told her. Then she'd come behind me and give me pretend swats (we were both standing up, and they obviously didn't hurt) and then my "pinch to grow an inch" (which didn't hurt either). We would both laugh. If any other family members were in the room, they'd laugh with us too, but we never had a big crowd or anything. Then she would give me a hug.

ETA: The pinch was on the arm. A pinch on the butt might be a little weird.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Have you noticed the serendipitous appearance of this thread over in N&CE?

"Woman sues after being spanked at business "team building" event." http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=443681

Read through the article. For those here who have spent time at so-called team building corporate events (paintball meets, corporate sports leagues, etc. etc.), doesn't this awfully sound like a similar thing? Like people are going to claim that this is all done "in fun"?

Shouldn't we examine why hitting, even lightly, is perceived as "fun"?


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lioralourie*
velochic, that is fabulous that you made that connection between drugged births and spanking.
she said:

"*This "tradition" came about when women were put completely under to have a baby and the baby would be so lethargic when s/he was born, they would spank it to make it cry and make sure they had not drugged it to death*. "

Did everyone get that? I don't think I'll be birthday spanking but if I'm ever around one, it'll serve as another time/place/trigger to mention Natural Birth!!!

Okay maybe that's one for the Activism forum!

Nah, I think it flew past 'em.







Thanks, though.









Kinda sad that something like issue this would have to go to activism, though.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I was right there with ya, velochic.

I'm glad you brought it up. Too bad the connection has been glossed over here.


----------



## kewb (May 13, 2005)

I had forgotten all about the birthday spankings, punches & pinches from childhood. I do remember laughter and giggles and fun vaguely. I also have a vague memory of the paddywhack chain where the birthday child crawled through the legs of the other.

I have never done this to my children as the idea never even occurred to me. My dd would probably think it was a hoot.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
Here's a somewhat heretical idea. This just occurred to me a few minutes ago. I'm still pondering it, haven't really fleshed this thought out entirely yet, but thought I'd throw it into the mix to shake things up









I recently read Lawrence Cohen's Playful Parenting. I was stricken by some of his ideas about how play, including violent play, between two children or between a child and an adult, is how a child experiments with baser emotions such as aggression. Violent play allows a child to learn to channel his/her strength and aggressive emotions, and to learn to deal with other people's aggression. Likewise, tickling allows a child to experiment with being in control vs. out of control (and he was quick to admonish that one should always pay close attention to a child's cues during tickling to make sure that you never do truely remove control from the child).

Couldn't we argue that play dominance games, like birthday spankings, have a similar purpose? Birthday traditions already play games with who's "in control" - allowing special priviledges to the child that the child may not have the rest of the year. For instance, lots of extra food treats, sleeping late, not having to help wash the dishes, etc. So, couldn't we argue that a birthday spanking continues to play with the playful dominance ideas that are already present in birthday celebrations? You're extra dominant, you're extra dominant, whoops! You're not in charge for a minute!, oh, you're back to being extra dominant!

I think that is a lovely way to look at it. Play hitting, play wrestling, roaring dinosaurs and I'm-going-to-get-you chases - these are ways to play with aggression, fear, and power.

Done respectfully, with genuine consent and humor, birthday spankings are funny. Tickling is similar. I have experienced unpleasant tickling in my childhood, but that does not stop me from respectfully playing tickling games with dd. She LOVES them. She gets to experiment with feeling out of control, but knows that at the drop of a hat I will stop. I always stop before she wants me to, in fact. I also let her get me, and exerience power.

Playful parenting is one of my all time favorite books.









PS - didn't Little House on The Prairie predate drugged births? Or is my sense of time all screwed up?
Ah, poking around Google it seems there are quite a few "origins" of the birthday spanking, but most agree that it goes back several hundred years in America.


----------



## Helen White (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
PS - didn't Little House on The Prairie predate drugged births? Or is my sense of time all screwed up?
Ah, poking around Google it seems there are quite a few "origins" of the birthday spanking, but most agree that it goes back several hundred years in America.

AHA! So you mean I don't need to feel guilty and non-NFL for my fond childhood birthday spanking memories?


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Tboroson and Dechen -

Excellent points! I will ponder this with a new angle now...

How the heck did I miss your post #63 until now when it was quoted?! Sorry!


----------



## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I was always humiliated by birthday spankings.
We don't do them.


----------



## 13moons (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Helen White*
Let's see...as far as I remember, my grandma would say, "Have you had your birthday spanking yet?" I would say no, and she'd say, "How old are you now?" and usually act surprised and pretend she didn't believe me when I told her. Then she'd come behind me and give me pretend swats (we were both standing up, and they obviously didn't hurt) and then my "pinch to grow an inch" (which didn't hurt either). We would both laugh. If any other family members were in the room, they'd laugh with us too, but we never had a big crowd or anything. Then she would give me a hug.

ETA: The pinch was on the arm. A pinch on the butt might be a little weird.









Yeah, that was pretty much how it went for me as well--there was nothing creepy or painful about it. And I was spanked as a child as punishment too but the birthday spankings bore no similarity to punishment--they were just funny.
We do not do birthday spankings with our dc, not for any reason other than that we just don't. When my dc were much smaller I probably would have been offended at the idea and I do not let my ILs do birthday spankings for a number of reasons. But (I think) last year, my mom did birthday spankings for at least one of my kids and they thought it was hilarious.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Could birthday spankings possibly be a type of childhood experience that _*normalizes*_ violence (and I'll use this term loosely here so no one takes offense with their own personal recollection or tradition) even when the "spankings" are done in a light-hearted or playful way with the child's consent?


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm pretty sure birthday spankings do predate drugged births by several decades.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Could birthday spankings possibly be a type of childhood experience that _*normalizes*_ violence (and I'll use this term loosely here so no one takes offense with their own personal recollection or tradition) even when the "spankings" are done in a light-hearted or playful way with the child's consent?

I agree; this is basically what I meant by saying that birthday spankings relate to spanking being iconic of childhood. It doesn't make much sense outside of a culture in which punitive spanking is the norm.


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Am I the only one who think it seems kind of creepy?

I can't put my finger on it, but it sounds sorta creepy to me, too.

Now that PE teacher giving birthday spankings -- definitely creepy.


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
Oh, and I recently borrowed Little House on the Prairie from the library to read to my 4yo. I'd remembered a few details, like it rang a bell that they got spanked. But I totally didn't remember how much of a theme it was, nor did I remember the racism. I read like a chapter and a half to her and couldn't go on; I read a little more to myself and returned it. Oy. Yuk. What really shocked me was how many people here on MDC are utter devotees of those books!

Yeah, you just really have to skip over a lot of those parts. I was shocked, too. But it does give an interesting history of what it must have been like to be a child then.


----------



## LookMommy! (Jun 16, 2002)

I remember paddywack machines (class lines up, kid goes through legs) from elementary school. My ds10 would like that. My dd12 would (and would have always) hate it. I can't remember what I thought, but I think it must have been embarrassing for the fat kids, who were teased about being stuck. I'm sure some of the kids took it as license to hit hard.

These days, our cultural tradition is to lift birthday kid on a chair (friends all take chair legs) and lift once per year plus once for the next year. Most kids find it scary/exhilarating/fun. I imagine if one of my kids hated it, I would pass on it. It was done to me at my wedding.

I do sometimes play drums on my dd5's naked tushie, but she does it on mine when she manages to find a chance! (Not a game I play with dc10 and 12!)

I was never spanked, but I watched my dad run after my brother with a whip.









My dh holds the kids down and smothers them with kisses, which they hate, and have asked him to stop, but he ignores them









My dd12 hated Little House, and Harry Potter as well.

Lisa


----------



## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
PS - didn't Little House on The Prairie predate drugged births? Or is my sense of time all screwed up?

it doesn't matter, does it?

The spankings in LHOTP were REAL spankings, not birthday or playful spankings, right, or am I missing something?


----------



## winonamom2be (Nov 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
PS - didn't Little House on The Prairie predate drugged births? Or is my sense of time all screwed up?

Yes, it did, and no, it isn't. Obviously b-day spankings are not about drugged births.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *winonamom2be*
Obviously b-day spankings are not about drugged births.

Would you be willing to explain why you'd characterize b-day spankings' origins/role as _obvious_, because I really am not seeing this and would like to understand your POV better


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe the OP is pointing out that the tradition of birthday spankings far pre-dates the 'drugged birth' phenomenon, so birthday spankings can't be connected to medicated child birth.

however! the practice of giving the newborn a few spanks ALSO pre-dates drugged childbirth...it was done to clear the airways of mucous and meconium.

So it's quite possible that the tradition reflects a life-giving action by the mother or birth attendant and is a symbol of life, not violence


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
Yeah, you just really have to skip over a lot of those parts. I was shocked, too. But it does give an interesting history of what it must have been like to be a child then.

Hmmm. I guess it depends on the age of your child, but I definitely plan on reading these books to my children, and NOT skipping anything.

My sister is reading the series to her children, and they love it. She has mentioned that they usually spend about half of the time reading, and about half of the time discussing. And her dh is Native American, so they have that side of their heritage to understand.

I think children can handle it, it's important to know your history, or you know what they say.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
So it's quite possible that the tradition reflects a life-giving action by the mother or birth attendant and is a symbol of life, not violence









I've actually read the exact opposite--that the hits represent the symbolic softening up of the body in preparation for the tomb. Isn't that fascinating?


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Why would anniversary-of-the-day-a-person-was-born spankings be related to anything actually done on that day a person crossed the threashold? I mean, I've never heard of anyone having a Birthday Tradition of draping a person in a body-temperature wet sack in immitation of that day. Or squeezing them through a tight space (although, come to think of it, the "paddywack machine" that LookMommy! describes could be seen as that







).

If that is the case, we should think up new traditions as medical technology has changed.







Like, we should stick them with a needle to mimic the Vitamin K shot. And, does that mean that those who were homebirthed get to have different "traditions"?










Frankly, nothing is going to change my opinion to thinking that birthday spankings are benign. Real violence, or fake violence. Victim, agressor or executioner (ie: someone who does it as the representative of all the others). Doesn't matter to me.

Our birthday tradition is having lots of people of all ages who are friends of the birthday person over for food drinks and games. My son likes rocket balloons. If there is any striking going on, it is directed _soley_ at a pinata.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*
If that is the case, we should think up new traditions as medical technology has changed.







Like, we should stick them with a needle to mimic the Vitamin K shot. And, does that mean that those who were homebirthed get to have different "traditions"?


























In that case, I am going to start the tradition of smearing vaseline in my childrens' eyes on their birthdays, to represent the highly unnecessary antibiotic ointment they received at birth









I doubt I will do birthday spankings with my children, because, as a child who was subject to excessive physical discipline, I am very keen on respecting my children's right to own their bodies. But I wouldn't think worse of a family who did use the tradition, presuming their children enjoyed it.


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
Birthdayspankings?

I have never, ever heard of this.. What is the purpose? And why does it have to be a spanking, and not a hug/a stroke on the cheek etc.?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious. As a Norwegian, this is not something I have ever heard of.

wow, I never heard of this either. just from a (chilean) person that has never heard of this, it sounds bizarre


----------



## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

We haven't done it, my parents didn't do it, but I do recall our Principal in grade school did it, never to me though, he knew better







.

That said, I don't think it is wrong for other families where the parents are being playful and the children are wanting/enjoying it.

As a matter of fact, I can totally foresee this conversation with my dd soon:

DD- "Mom, why don't you spank me on my birthday? Hannah said you have to or I won't grow"

Me- "Lovey- you are growing just fine without them, so I never thought to do it"

DD- "You need to do it now, Hannah said so"

Me- "OK dolly" <spank, spank, spank, spank, spank, spank>

That darn Hannah always knows more than mama









While we don't spank birthdays or any other time, we do lots of Cohen's Playful Parenting and wrestling and very physical play, and even "play fight" a fair amount, and the kids LOVE it. I could do without it, but they just adore that stuff.


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I have a question... is this "birthday spanking" mean, actual "painful" spanking?? like, hard?? just curious


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Just out of sheer curiousity, and not to cast any sort of dispersions, but how many of you who do b-day spankings forbid toy guns or swords?

_I'm not saying they are the same_, but I'm curious about the connections to violence, and how they are viewed from that angle...


----------



## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Just out of sheer curiousity, and not to cast any sort of dispersions, but how many of you who do b-day spankings forbid toy guns or swords?

_I'm not saying they are the same_, but I'm curious about the connections to violence, and how they are viewed from that angle...

Not quite what you were asking but, my kids have a foam sword and shield set , and though we don't have any toy guns, I did change my mind about the possilibity of violent types of play when I read Playful Parenting, and we DON'T do birthday spankings. So, I guess I would be the flip side of the theory you are wondering about.

PS- we also have big puffy boxing gloves that we play "fight" with.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Peppermint, I would fit in a simiar category to you. I just got very curious about how others thought of these things...

Thanks!


----------



## JeDeeLenae (Feb 5, 2006)

I think too many people are looking too hard into this. I guess it really depends on how you were raised and what your overall experience was.

In our house, it was usually our dad that gave us a birthday spanking. It was pretty much like the PP said. He'd ask if we got our BDay spanking and if we didn't, he'd joke for a second and ask how old we were... act totally shocked that we were that old now.. then either put us over his knee or just have us stand next to him and he'd give us swats for each year and a pinch to grow an inch. That was the end of it. We never had huge parties for our birthdays so it was usually just us kids and our parents. When we did have birthday parties, we weren't given birthday spankings in front of everyone.

I, for one, never thought that because I got a birthday spanking it was OK to hit people or that violence was normal. I didn't associate something my family did out of fun to be violent or violence-promoting. I never felt it was cruel or barbaric or anything of the sort.


----------



## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

It's fascinating to me that birthday spankings seem to be an American tradition. But it must have come from England somehow? Or slavery? Those are the two deepest cultural 'traditions' we still see evidence of today.

The spankings in LHITBW were both real, as punishment, and 'pretend' for birthdays. Laura Ingalls was born in 1867 and the birthday spankings were for her 5th birthday, so that would be 1872.


----------



## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

By the way, just did a quick search through the MANY electronic academic journals online at my university, and got NO resultes in a search for 'birthday spanking.' (looked in history, sociology, etc.) Definitely a historical paper here that needs to be written!!


----------



## ~*SugarMama*~ (Jul 20, 2005)

I hate the thought of birthday spankings. I never understood how it could be "right" to spank your child for turning another year older. If I am not going to spank my child for doing something "bad", why would I do it for something that I am celebrating? To me, it just sends mixed messages.


----------

