# birth: it's like pooping, it's like sex...NOT rocket science



## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

y'know, I find myself again and again wanting to say random stuff when I am reading the threads here at mothering.com, or talking to people IRL, about birth. Things that happen routinely to women birthing in hosptials in the good ol' USA that we accept as fact, as "okay", that, if taken out of the hosptial birthing context, and applied to a simialr (but different) context would be OUTRAGOUS.

There's a fine lady on these boards who likes to draw a parallel between c-section and colostomy bags.

I AM ALL ABOUT IT. (And I do not for a moment doubt the value of a cesarean, as I do not doubt the value of a colostomy--I am not being cheeky or flippant.)

What about sex? Another great parallel....as Ina May Gaskin says, the same sexy energy that got the baby in there is the same sexy energy that gets the baby out. Dim lights, feeling safe, secure....

Another facet:
what if I imagine a man's arousal being measured in the same humilating (but totally accepted) manner a woman's dialating cervix is?

"well, sorry, you can't possibly be fully excited yet, because you're not meeting our measurement criteria....or you'll need this many more kisses before you'll be 'ready'". _What the heck?_ it sounds *crazy* the moment you apply the labor room attitude to a slightly different but very similar context. (Lemme just pop an IV in your arm 'til you're "turned on"....scary!!!!!)

At the hospital, the questions is: How dialated is she? Insert your fingers and spread, and record the diameter on this paper. What men were measured on their private parts about something as DYNAMIC and _intimate_ as arousal?

Seriously........I really think they are highly similar....

What else?

Is there a place for comparisons with rape, the way some women are bullied and humiliated and terrorized and threatened by "care providers"?

Birth is "so unusual" and "dangerous" in our mainstream culture, that I think we forget that there's a real woman around that contracting uterus, a real woman around that cervix to measure.....and that the accepted elements of American Childbirth are OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

outrageous. "oh, I had to have a c-section"....that is what a third of our sisters in the USA tell their friends when _they_ come home from the hosptial with their new babies....if I just came home from the hosptial saying, "oh, I have to have a colosotmy," that would NOT be accepted. NO ONE would expect me to be at Target buying Windex & Doritos 3 weeks post-op, but nowadays it's "just" a c-section (like Britney Spears!)

NEXT ANGLE: labor is kind of like being drunk!

Who has a Breathalyzer handy to check their _actual_ blood alcohol level? Not many people.....but you know when you're buzzed, you know when you're really buzzed, and you know when you're drunk, and then WHOOPSIE, you're really drunk and puking.

You don't need explicit numerical data to tell you this! The same is true for how far along a woman is in labor, IMHO.

And if you do have a Breathalyzer handy, as I did a few times, well, it's not really that much of a news flash... And being .06 does not tell me exactly how many more drinks I can have before I'm "completely drunk," nor does being 6 cm tell a woman/care provider how many more contractions she'll experience before she's "completely dialated."

Further, the Breathalyzer can be a buzzkill.....just like a vag exam might be.

I'm just going nuts about all of these things, and more......and don't have the collection of birth-junkie IRL pals to toss around these ideas and concepts....

The constant measuring tracking recording data-gathering: birth is not rocket science!!!!

What are your thoughts?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Excellent post!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Rocket science? Maybe not. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life? Yes. First experience I've ever had that made me wish I were dead? Yes. There's no possibility of feeling safe and secure when you're in that kind of pain. There's nothing nice or sexy about it. I had the hot tub, dim lights, CDs of my favorite soothing music, a good birth plan drawn up. When the time came, I realized that I couldn't care less about the lighting or the music or any of the rest of it. Poked and prodded? Sure, whatever. I didn't care what anyone did. Nothing mattered to me anymore. I'd have taken heroin if you'd offered it to me then. Anything to stop the pain.

Simple process, maybe, but it sure as hell isn't easy.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
y'know, I find myself again and again wanting to say random stuff when I am reading the threads here at mothering.com, or talking to people IRL, about birth. Things that happen routinely to women birthing in hosptials in the good ol' USA that we accept as fact, as "okay", that, if taken out of the hosptial birthing context, and applied to a simialr (but different) context would be OUTRAGOUS.

There's a fine lady on these boards who likes to draw a parallel between c-section and colostomy bags.

I AM ALL ABOUT IT. (And I do not for a moment doubt the value of a cesarean, as I do not doubt the value of a colostomy--I am not being cheeky or flippant.)

What about sex? Another great parallel....as Ina May Gaskin says, the same sexy energy that got the baby in there is the same sexy energy that gets the baby out. Dim lights, feeling safe, secure....

Another facet:
what if I imagine a man's arousal being measured in the same humilating (but totally accepted) manner a woman's dialating cervix is?

"well, sorry, you can't possibly be fully excited yet, because you're not meeting our measurement criteria....or you'll need this many more kisses before you'll be 'ready'". _What the heck?_ it sounds *crazy* the moment you apply the labor room attitude to a slightly different but very similar context. (Lemme just pop an IV in your arm 'til you're "turned on"....scary!!!!!)

At the hospital, the questions is: How dialated is she? Insert your fingers and spread, and record the diameter on this paper. What men were measured on their private parts about something as DYNAMIC and _intimate_ as arousal?

Seriously........I really think they are highly similar....

What else?

Is there a place for comparisons with rape, the way some women are bullied and humiliated and terrorized and threatened by "care providers"?

Birth is "so unusual" and "dangerous" in our mainstream culture, that I think we forget that there's a real woman around that contracting uterus, a real woman around that cervix to measure.....and that the accepted elements of American Childbirth are OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

outrageous. "oh, I had to have a c-section"....that is what a third of our sisters in the USA tell their friends when _they_ come home from the hosptial with their new babies....if I just came home from the hosptial saying, "oh, I have to have a colosotmy," that would NOT be accepted. NO ONE would expect me to be at Target buying Windex & Doritos 3 weeks post-op, but nowadays it's "just" a c-section (like Britney Spears!)

NEXT ANGLE: labor is kind of like being drunk!

Who has a Breathalyzer handy to check their _actual_ blood alcohol level? Not many people.....but you know when you're buzzed, you know when you're really buzzed, and you know when you're drunk, and then WHOOPSIE, you're really drunk and puking.

You don't need explicit numerical data to tell you this! The same is true for how far along a woman is in labor, IMHO.

And if you do have a Breathalyzer handy, as I did a few times, well, it's not really that much of a news flash... And being .06 does not tell me exactly how many more drinks I can have before I'm "completely drunk," nor does being 6 cm tell a woman/care provider how many more contractions she'll experience before she's "completely dialated."

Further, the Breathalyzer can be a buzzkill.....just like a vag exam might be.

I'm just going nuts about all of these things, and more......and don't have the collection of birth-junkie IRL pals to toss around these ideas and concepts....

The constant measuring tracking recording data-gathering: birth is not rocket science!!!!

What are your thoughts?
































THANK YOU! I'm not alone in thinking this! So many times have I just been a "drive by" reader as opposed to a replier- for the simple reason that these are some of the things I wanted to say!!


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Finally someone said it!!!

You know my mom met a man from Africa on a plane to Sweden not too long ago. He told her how in his village 98% of the babies are born at home and most labours are around 1-2 hours MAX.

Seriously, what is our problem here?!!


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

oh my gosh, I truly hesitated to post this, I am so thrilled to know that my sisters _understand_ what the heck it is I'm trying to say!!!

keep it comin'!!!


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)




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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

LOL, so true!!!

I read the thread title and had to laugh because lately I actually have been thinking about how much giving birth is like pooping. As someone with IBS, I have actually learned a lot about how to give birth by how I handle pooping







.

~Erin


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
What about sex? Another great parallel....as Ina May Gaskin says, the same sexy energy that got the baby in there is the same sexy energy that gets the baby out. Dim lights, feeling safe, secure....

Another facet:
what if I imagine a man's arousal being measured in the same humilating (but totally accepted) manner a woman's dialating cervix is?

I really think some of this stuff depends a great deal on the woman.

For me, feeling safe and secure during birth is about feeling that my health care provider (whoever that might be) is competent and trustworthy. And feeling comfortable in my environment is about being someplace like a birth center or hospital, rather than in my own home, where I know I'd feel inhibited and uncomfortable.

I've never been bothered by a vaginal exam in my life. I certainly don't find them humiliating; generally I don't even find them uncomfortable. During my last birth, I was happy to have occasional vaginal exams -- I found that they helped me understand what was going on, particularly since I didn't recognize transition until after it was over, when I learned through a vaginal exam that I was fully dilated.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
Rocket science? Maybe not. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life? Yes. First experience I've ever had that made me wish I were dead? Yes. There's no possibility of feeling safe and secure when you're in that kind of pain. There's nothing nice or sexy about it. I had the hot tub, dim lights, CDs of my favorite soothing music, a good birth plan drawn up. When the time came, I realized that I couldn't care less about the lighting or the music or any of the rest of it. Poked and prodded? Sure, whatever. I didn't care what anyone did. Nothing mattered to me anymore. I'd have taken heroin if you'd offered it to me then. Anything to stop the pain.

Simple process, maybe, but it sure as hell isn't easy.

LOL
I totally agree about labor.
When i tell people that i would have happily accepted the offer of a door-to-door heroin dealer during labor, they generally laugh, but I'm dead serious.
*IF* i had not known myself as completely as i do, and if I had chosen to labor in a place that offerred drugs....i SO would have taken them....if it were offerred to me, I would have killed a child to get drugs, I am absolutely not kidding.

On the other hand, I totally agree with the OP.
It DIDN'T MATTER that i was in excruciating hellish pain.
My body knew what to do and did it, with no help from me thank you very much, and DD flew out after 16 hours of the hellish torture, with absolutely no intervention or active anything on my part at all.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
My body knew what to do and did it, with no help from me thank you very much, and DD flew out after 16 hours of the hellish torture, with absolutely no intervention or active anything on my part at all.

I took the epidural after about 10 hours of torture ... and after 3 hours of pushing that was even more painful (despite the epidural!), he was still stuck. I had a C-section. I don't know if things would have gone differently if I hadn't gotten the epidural, but I do know that nothing went as planned, and nothing in the dozens of natural birthing/midwife books I read prepared me for any of it.


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 

Seriously, what is our problem here?!!


Lawyers and babies who do NOT have perfect outcomes.


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## guestmama9916 (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Finally someone said it!!!

You know my mom met a man from Africa on a plane to Sweden not too long ago. He told her how in his village 98% of the babies are born at home and most labours are around 1-2 hours MAX.

Seriously, what is our problem here?!!

Nutrition.

The Africans that still adhere to a mostly traditional diet that is nutrient dense are the ones probably having 1-2 hour labors. Most Americans are nutritionally deficient and are the product of generations of nutritionally deficient parents. Its no wonder that labor has become harder and more painful for lots of us. Our hips have become more narrow due to the nutrient deficiencies as well. Its not just the Africans that have easy labors but the Eskimos do too (or at least the ones still eating the traditional diet). If you want to know more about it, read Dr. Weston A. Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

For the cross-cultural comparison question, I think there's likely a huge difference in how we define "labor". My guess would be that the "labor" he's referring to encompasses only transition and birth. It's not that I think the comparison isn't valuable, only that I suspect our terms don't exactly translate across the cultures, y'know?

To add to the original topic, one of my favorites is digestion. Sure, an IV or nasogastric tube can sustain you with nutrients, and sometimes that's better and more healthy than eating, but if you had the option, wouldn't you prefer a Thanksgiving feast? Or a plate of chocolate cookies, or a bowl of soup, or whatever you felt like eating right then... Plus there's the "but so many things can go wrong with digestion!" aspect - you could choke, or get food poisoning, or swallow a bone, or... But the interventions required to "prevent" those occurances 1) probably wouldn't (wouldn't you be more likely to choke - pun intended - with an anxious audience?), and 2) would ruin the experience, even if you were still able to consume the food.

I'm actually not a huge fan of the sex comparison, unless, like here, it's mixed in with a lot of others. Some babies AREN'T conceived with loving sex (it could be functional sex, or horrible sex, or not sex at all, or a surgical procedure involving lots of doctors and nurses you hardly know). It doesn't actually _require_ a "sexy" atmosphere for babies to be born - sure, it helps the process, but it isn't the only way for it to get done. (Although the same is true of sex - it's pretty amazing the conditions in which sex can and do occur: family bed, anyone? or as a friend of mine said, with Baby Einstein playing in the background? in the office closet, or on a subway, or in front of cameras?)

And, of course, sometimes birth is just overwhelmingly painful or dysfuctional. The odds of that occuring can be minimized, and in a good birth-supporting culture it's really rare, but it does occur. Sometimes you do choke; sometimes sex is traumatic and painful. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. It doesn't mean we should discount anyone's experience, of course. But we should acknowledge it's not how things generally go, which is the point of these analogies.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

My mom asked him how long the contractions lasted from very start to very finish and he clarified that is what he meant by labour. It's very interesting.


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## 3-StarSystem (Oct 26, 2006)

I feel the same way as the OP honestly and more and more lately I've been finding myself saying that I don't need someone to watch me eat in case I choke or watch me poop in case I tear (I'm an IBS momma too and man those rectal tears have definitely been up there with my perineal tear last birth LOL.) and if someone were to supervise me doing any of those or many potentially "dangerous" normal occurences in my life (Could you imagine someone supervising your driving?) I'd be flustered, nervous and WOULD LIKELY PERFORM POORLY and would probably increase my own chances of needing that "help".

While I agree that there's much more at stake in giving birth, I REALLY hate the societal attitude towards birth. It's been impossible for me to get care from someone that's okay with sitting in another room unless I call them when they're needed. It's not accepted that I may not need any help at all, and sadly because of the fact that if I wish my birth legally attended I would have to subject myself and babe to such supervision/monitoring. Which would in all actuality make the experience more likely to go "wrong" IMO. Not many other options out there where I live. Yay for UC though, but it's so sad that there can't be "I'll be there if you need me." care where I live.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i am also frustrated with the societal perspectives of birth.

i agree that c-sections and hospital care and whatnot are valuable. but what i'm not comfortable with is how the culture defers to this as 'normal care' or 'appropriate care' and how this impacts birthing women and their children (negatively IMO).


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I'm in the "I had an excruciatingly painful birth and my body did not just do exactly what it was supposed to when left completely alone" (UC hospital transfer) camp. HOWEVER, I still agree, and would consider another UC if I can't find a provider who will LEAVE ME ALONE in birth.

After giving birth, for me, all of active labor felt A LOT like sex, with cramping pain with each contraction. Not bad or unbearable, but there was a lot going on, and my cervix dilating felt just like deep penetrating sex. Hence, I made the same noises. I don't know if I would feel comfortable making sex/orgasm noises in front of strange nurses and even the doctor I'm very familiar with. You know, just how I wouldn't have sex in front of them with my husband. My sexual desire and relaxation would just stop. I think the same thing would happen, to a large degree, with birth.

Then, when pushing came, it was a lot like pooping, but with absolutely intense, over-the-top agony (for 7+hrs). I hated it, but I'm not a huge fan of pooping as a recreational activity, either. I knew, through the whole labor and birth, that nothing was wrong. Everything was going fine, it just felt horrible.

When I was pregnant, dh and I talked about it and I compared it to someone "helping" you poop. Imagine you see a doctor to make sure you're pooping correctly. He says, "Let's do some tests and make sure everything's ok in there." So you get an anal exam, which is uncomfortable and intrusive, but just to make sure everything is ok (which it is). Then the doctor recommends a u/s, just to make sure the poop isn't too big to come out. So you get the u/s, and your doctor says, "Wow, that's a pretty big poop! You'd better let me know when you feel the need to go so we can make sure this turns out ok." Well, you're worried now - you never had trouble with pooping before, but heck. This one's BIG! So you go to the hospital when you feel like you might need to poop (but before you really have the urge) and people keep sticking their fingers up your butt to tell you whether or not you're ready to poop.

Ok, so that's kind of silly (I could continue the analogy but I'll stop there, lol - "Quick, he needs an episiotomy! Get the forceps!"







), and there is definitely more risk associated with childbirth than with pooping, but I do think it's a valuable analogy because it reminds us (as if we needed it) that birth IS a natural process the body is designed for, and if left unhindered and comfortable, will probably go much more smoothly than if interefered with. After talking with dh about it, he agreed that it would be pretty much impossible for him to poop with various people inspecting him and telling him what his progress was.

Sometimes, interference is valuable and needed. But it is so frustrating to see the crazy overmanagement of birth that goes on in hospitals, and sometimes with midwives too. Drives me nuts. The only help I needed in labor was someone to (1) help me recognize that it was time to push (and push a lip of cervix out of the way if it was needed) and (2) give me a little help pushing efficiently. That was it - otherwise I could have done it completely on my own. Next time I probably could, which is why I want someone really hands-off!

Julia
dd 9mos


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## WildNettle (Oct 25, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly! What really saddens me is watching my sisters give their power away. WHY are women so afraid to stand up for what they believe or feel or need? Why is intuition scoffed at so much, doubted and devalued? And WHY, WHY, WHY do so many women just let others tell them what to do? I understand that not everyone reads midwifery texts for fun, and that not everyone is as into birth as me, but it really saddens me when woman after woman needs an "expert" to tell them what to do all the time!
That said, I'm not trying to slam those women who need that, or who aren't on the same boat. I just really want to see women regain their integrity and strength, especially when it comes to birth and motherhood. I'm not blaming the women, I guess, I'm frustrated with where our society's headed. And it's getting this way with everything, not just birth, but healthcare in general, food, education, you name it! People are forgetting that they have a choice and a voice and an inner guide that believe it or not, is generally pretty wise.


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

"I REALLY hate the societal attitude towards birth. "

I'll always wonder how much of my traumatic painful birth experience(s) came from the society I was raised in. goodness knows I did all the reading, preparing, and positivie thinking in the world to tell myself it wouldn't be the way society said it would be. Was it just not big enough to overcome a lifetime of those messages?


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Great post.

I remember thinking how ridiculous I was to have brought scented candles and a CD of mood music to my labor







I didn't give a crap about anything at that point but one thing is for sure, I never would have accepted any kind of drug for pain, never even crossed my mind. I'm also confused about why some women don't "understand" how to push. For me it was exactly like going poo except out of another orifice


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## mzfern (Nov 16, 2004)

Thank you for this thread, OP, and the subsequent posts. As a woman preparing to give birth for the first time in the next few weeks, it's really empowering to hear your words. My body and my baby thank you!


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## crittersmom (Mar 24, 2005)

When I started having more labor-like contractions as opposed to the BH I had been feeling for weeks I went in.The contractions were timeable and I couldn't walk or talk during them so I thought this must be labor.I was monitored and strapped down overnight and by morning they had petered out.I was told it was just "false" labor and real labor feels like it is coming across your belly form front to back.Every time I've been in labor since then I have never felt it as it is alays described in text books.Mine have always felt like I really had to poop, the kind of cramps when you run for the toilet and privacy cuz its not going to be "polite".








I spent my second labor in the bathroom on the toilet becuase it was more private than laboring in bed and using the bedpan on a stool next to the bed the nurse had so graciously suggested I should do.
With each birth I've had I've felt and learned more about myself and how I really don't need to be managed I just need a saftey net that is not hovering over me.Its sad that I didn't know these things from the beginning and that if you are considered high risk there is no chance of even having any real choices in how you birth and what happens to your body and baby.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers*
I really think some of this stuff depends a great deal on the woman. [...] I've never been bothered by a vaginal exam in my life. I certainly don't find them humiliating; generally I don't even find them uncomfortable.

A vaginal exam doesn't have to be felt as humiliating or uncomfortable in order for it to be a pointless interference. In order for a mother to have a vaginal exam, she has to get into an unnatural and impeding position, as far as labor goes, and is at the very least aware that a clinical procedure is being done to her and the judgments made by it that she may mull over and may feel the need to act on, which puts her "in her head" to some degree, which interferes with normal hormonal release.

Quote:

During my last birth, I was happy to have occasional vaginal exams -- I found that they helped me understand what was going on, particularly since I didn't recognize transition until after it was over, when I learned through a vaginal exam that I was fully dilated.
Birth is biologically a primal, instinctive, autonomic and involuntary function of the body. It's not something one needs to recognize the stages of to be able to do. Why do you feel you needed to know you were fully dilated, unless you were planning on bypassing that instinctive autonomic process in some way?

This is exactly part of what the OP is getting at, I think. Most people no longer regard birth as a primal, instinctive process, and so do not treat it as one, and so have no basis for which to understand it as one. So it becomes -- we make it -- this crazy nonsensical unnatural thing, and that's the norm, and a great many people have no idea just how crazy and unnatural it is.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
Rocket science? Maybe not. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life? Yes. First experience I've ever had that made me wish I were dead? Yes. There's no possibility of feeling safe and secure when you're in that kind of pain. There's nothing nice or sexy about it. I had the hot tub, dim lights, CDs of my favorite soothing music, a good birth plan drawn up. When the time came, I realized that I couldn't care less about the lighting or the music or any of the rest of it. Poked and prodded? Sure, whatever. I didn't care what anyone did. Nothing mattered to me anymore. I'd have taken heroin if you'd offered it to me then. Anything to stop the pain.

Simple process, maybe, but it sure as hell isn't easy.


I jsut wnat to say, and to the other people who have this outlook, I am very sorry that you had sucha difficult experience. It isnt like that for everyone, or most people for that matter. I firmly believe most people who have such negative memories of Labor had, for one reason or another, a very negative state of mind going into the process.

and to the OP, thank you for this!!


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
Birth is biologically a primal, instinctive, autonomic and involuntary function of the body. It's not something one needs to recognize the stages of to be able to do. Why do you feel you needed to know you were fully dilated, unless you were planning on bypassing that instinctive autonomic process in some way?

Personally, I prefer to understand what's going on during childbirth from an intellectual as well as an emotional point of view. I found having some kind of a clue as to how far along things were and what I might expect to be helpful. For example, knowing that I was fully dilated, but that my baby was still very high, helped me to make the decision not to try any kind of active pushing until about three hours later, when the baby had descended further.

Different approaches are right for different people. If this isn't a piece of information you find helpful during your births, then by all means, you shouldn't have it. But suggesting that everyone would be best served by taking one specific approach to birth seems a little ridiculous.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

Yay for you, tinyshoes! The more I work in birth the more I undo my own socialising and see how birthing just *isn't* a medical process unless something dire and unexpected occurs. Gee, you know what? That sounds a lot like LIFE, hey?!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Finally someone said it!!!

You know my mom met a man from Africa on a plane to Sweden not too long ago. He told her how in his village 98% of the babies are born at home and most labours are around 1-2 hours MAX.

*Seriously, what is our problem here*?!!

Let's see, where do I start... ?







:







:


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 

This is exactly part of what the OP is getting at, I think. Most people no longer regard birth as a primal, instinctive process, and so do not treat it as one, and so have no basis for which to understand it as one. So it becomes -- we make it -- this crazy nonsensical unnatural thing, and that's the norm, and a great many people have no idea just how crazy and unnatural it is.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. So true!


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

I can really see it though:

Sometimes you know it is coming out NOW and FAST.

Sometimes it takes days to get it out!

Then the majority of the healthy time it comes out just like it always does. Very predictable.

Sometimes it is effortless.

Sometimes you have to sit there straining for who knows how long.

Sometimes in extreme situations you need supplements or outside help.

And what does it all depend on? Our state of health! For BOTH things. What and how much we eat, drink, and exercise.

Yes it is a natural thing, just like pooping.

But we are all different according to our lifestyle, health and conditions.


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## katiedidbug (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Personally, I prefer to understand what's going on during childbirth from an intellectual as well as an emotional point of view. I found having some kind of a clue as to how far along things were and what I might expect to be helpful. For example, knowing that I was fully dilated, but that my baby was still very high, helped me to make the decision not to try any kind of active pushing until about three hours later, when the baby had descended further.

Different approaches are right for different people. If this isn't a piece of information you find helpful during your births, then by all means, you shouldn't have it. But suggesting that everyone would be best served by taking one specific approach to birth seems a little ridiculous.









:
I really liked knowing how I was progressing. It helped me know the finish line and my beautiful baby were near!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato3cherubs* 
I jsut wnat to say, and to the other people who have this outlook, I am very sorry that you had sucha difficult experience. It isnt like that for everyone, or most people for that matter. I firmly believe most people who have such negative memories of Labor had, for one reason or another, a very negative state of mind going into the process.

I know you said "most people" and weren't necessarily talking about me, but I want to emphasize that I felt very positive going into the birth experience. I was calm and felt well-prepared and ready for labor and birth, even if it was hard and painful. I wasn't prepared to feel like someone was hitting my back with a chainsaw every four minutes for hours on end!

I don't mean to take away from this thread's original message, but I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts. I get depressed when I see so many threads saying things like "labor is easy and natural!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" because reading that kind of thing over and over left me unprepared for what I actually experienced.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

What would *supporting and validating the painful and difficult experiences some women have, while promoting and supporting the (still minority in this culture, alas) idea that birth can be, and usually is, a simple, doable, straightforward process that our bodies (usually) know how to do* look like? Are there simple or easy changes we can make while still promoting birth trust?


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## PGNPORTLAND (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I know you said "most people" and weren't necessarily talking about me, but I want to emphasize that I felt very positive going into the birth experience. I was calm and felt well-prepared and ready for labor and birth, even if it was hard and painful. I wasn't prepared to feel like someone was hitting my back with a chainsaw every four minutes for hours on end!

I don't mean to take away from this thread's original message, but I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts. I get depressed when I see so many threads saying things like "labor is easy and natural!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" because reading that kind of thing over and over left me unprepared for what I actually experienced.

I support and validate you.







:


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
What would *supporting and validating the painful and difficult experiences some women have, while promoting and supporting the (still minority in this culture, alas) idea that birth can be, and usually is, a simple, doable, straightforward process that our bodies (usually) know how to do* look like? Are there simple or easy changes we can make while still promoting birth trust?

I think what I would like to see is greater care taken to avoid making blanket statements like "birth is easy!" and "anyone can do it!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" More helpful would be things like "birth isn't usually as hard as people think it is" and "it probably won't hurt as much as you're afraid of" ... or even better, "here are some things that could make your birth experience very hard, and how you can get through them."

I feel like I see a lot of "you'll be fine!" but not a lot of "you can get through it even if it's hard."

I also hate seeing people talk in a disparaging way about women who can't handle the pain of labor and birth and who insist on medication of some kind. No one can know what pain feels like to another person. I really don't think many people who felt the kind of pain I was feeling would be willing to turn down an offer of pain relief. I respect women who insist on having a totally natural birth. But I don't like the implied message in some posts that anyone who doesn't is a wimp.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PGNPORTLAND* 
I support and validate you.







:

Thanks!







:

I should probably clarify that I don't think I've ever felt unsupported here on a *personal* level when I talk about my birth experience. The posts I have a problem with are usually written in a more general way.


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## KsMum (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Personally, I prefer to understand what's going on during childbirth from an intellectual as well as an emotional point of view. I found having some kind of a clue as to how far along things were and what I might expect to be helpful. For example, knowing that I was fully dilated, but that my baby was still very high, helped me to make the decision not to try any kind of active pushing until about three hours later, when the baby had descended further.

Different approaches are right for different people. If this isn't a piece of information you find helpful during your births, then by all means, you shouldn't have it. But suggesting that everyone would be best served by taking one specific approach to birth seems a little ridiculous.

I agree too : )
I found my birth to be incredibly fascinating, I am in awe of what the human body can do, and I loved hearing about how I was changing and progressing, and comparing that to how I was feeling. I remember when they told me I was fully dilated, I was amazed that after all those hours I was finaly there, and wanted to take a peek myself!


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## velveeta (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiedidbug* 







:
I really liked knowing how I was progressing. It helped me know the finish line and my beautiful baby were near!

I agree, but I think that different "signposts" would be more helpful. For example, when DS was born, my mother was attending me. She didn't do cervical checks, but because she understood how birth works, she said things that made me know I was "progressing" like, "Baby can only come out further now -- there is only one way out!" "Baby is almost here!" I would say, "I can't do it." She would say, "But, you *are* doing it." I am sure that I felt reassured and perfect (in the process) because she is my mother and I trust her completely.

This time, I have to tell you that the fears that I have surrounding birth are because I am going to be attended by a midwife and an assistant midwife! We live further from my mother now, and my labor with DS was very fast. My mother *may* be here, but it is not guaranteed (she has to fly to get here). I would probably be really scared if this were my first birth, but I have done it before, and her words from that day will come back to me easily, I know.

I wish I could express in words to you how great it was that she acted like everything was so normal and not big deal. If everyone had that, birth interventions would go way down, I am sure.

When I was about 32 weeks pregnant, I went to the regular doctor b/c I thought I had strep throat (*extreme* pain). Anyway, at the time, my 3 yo DS had chicken pox. Now, *I* know a lot about CP, and I was totally calm about it. The doctor actually talked about a risk to the baby's life and on and on. Now, what if I had been some inexperienced, first-time mother? I would have been scared out of my wits!

Great topic.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Love this post. I totally agree.

Btw, on the other hand, and this is SO embarrassing to admit, birthing 3 kids has helped me POOP BETTER!







:














:

(Please no ddddc about what a great pooper I must be now







)


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:

I firmly believe most people who have such negative memories of Labor had, for one reason or another, a very negative state of mind going into the process.
OUCH!









I really dislike these kinds of suggestions. Like those of us who DID have excruciating labor only had it because WE weren't ready for birth, weren't positive about birth, were afraid or obviously must have been hindered in some way . . . and people reading stories where birth is really, really painful sometimes seem to need to find reasons, where there really are none, for WHY it was painful and how mom could have avoided this pain (by being more in touch with her body, by avoiding this or that, etc). I dislike the suggestion that the reason 7+ hours of my labor was excruciating (or the reason I remember it that way) was because even though I _wasn't_ afraid, I must have been, otherwise it would have just happened easily (or I would remember it as less painful than it was).

I had great faith in my body, my instincts, and my body's ability to safely and naturally birth my baby prior to going into labor. I was never for one moment afraid during labor and always knew everything was ok with me and baby. However, that didn't keep me from 7+ hours of simply excruciating agony. At the end of it, because no one had told me NCB could be like that _if you were really in tune with your body and trusted your ability to birth_, I felt deeply betrayed for a long time after the birth.

I had a UC. I did transfer to the hospital at the end of those seven incredibly horrendously painful hours because I did not feel I could keep going like that indefinitely. I knew nothing was "wrong" with me or the baby, but I could not continue to wait at home for a pushing urge (that _never_ came, even after the doctor pushed a small lip of cervix out of the way).

Someone said she didn't understand how anyone could not know how to push. I didn't. While I understood the "pooping" part, and it was very much like that, at the time that my lower body was doing the "pooping," my upper body wanted very much to throw back my head and scream high-pitched. I was in extreme pain and had been for many hours. I just wanted to be done. It took some help from my doula and the nurse and a lot of effort to focus my upper body into the motion and push properly. Once I saw/felt the difference between the two, it was obvious what I should be doing (the screaming push did not move the baby down at all; the centered, low, grunting push was extremely effective).

I am tired of being blamed for having a painful birth, very mild, brief PTSD as a result, and struggling to come to terms with and understand my birth, like it is somehow my fault. For what it's worth, dh and I were very happy and comfortable with our choice to UC, because we knew so much about birth and both felt complete confidence in my ability to give birth without assistance or intervention. I labored very patiently through extreme pain and waited as long as I could before calling the doctor. It is possible that I could have pushed over the lip of cervix, but I had no urge and could not feel the lip myself to push it out of the way. I expected that at some point, my body would have a pushing urge, or things would feel different and I would instinctively know to push. But I didn't; I just didn't. Some of the sentiments that I got in conveying a very painful, natural UC/transfer birth really made me feel at times that the message was "Birth doesn't have to be painful; you must have done/felt something wrong." At the time, it was very hurtful; now it's just my pet peeve.









I'll reiterate though that I agree with the OP. It is like sex and pooping, just much, much bigger and more intense. And sometimes, doesn't go 100% smoothly and I don't think it's fair to place blame on the woman or her situation just because we want to believe that all births can be painfree, relatively painfree, or at least pain of a nature that can be reasonably coped with and does not last an intolerably long time. I had a very uncomplicated but extremely painful birth. And I'm at peace with it now.









Julia








dd 9mos

Disclaimer: I realize it says "most" in the quote above. That doesn't really change how the statement comes across, though, especially to those who have struggled with their birth experiences for one reason or another.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I think what I would like to see is greater care taken to avoid making blanket statements like "birth is easy!" and "anyone can do it!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" More helpful would be things like "birth isn't usually as hard as people think it is" and "it probably won't hurt as much as you're afraid of" ... or even better, "here are some things that could make your birth experience very hard, and how you can get through them."

I feel like I see a lot of "you'll be fine!" but not a lot of "you can get through it even if it's hard."

Those are good suggestions. Thank you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YumaDoula* 
Love this post. I totally agree.

Btw, on the other hand, and this is SO embarrassing to admit, birthing 3 kids has helped me POOP BETTER!







:















:

(Please no ddddc about what a great pooper I must be now







)

Heh. Party pooper.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YumaDoula* 
Love this post. I totally agree.

Btw, on the other hand, and this is SO embarrassing to admit, birthing 3 kids has helped me POOP BETTER!







:














:

(Please no ddddc about what a great pooper I must be now







)









Only on MDC would we feel comfortable talking about birth and BM's.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Personally, I prefer to understand what's going on during childbirth from an intellectual as well as an emotional point of view. I found having some kind of a clue as to how far along things were and what I might expect to be helpful. For example, knowing that I was fully dilated, but that my baby was still very high, helped me to make the decision not to try any kind of active pushing until about three hours later, when the baby had descended further.

Different approaches are right for different people. If this isn't a piece of information you find helpful during your births, then by all means, you shouldn't have it. But suggesting that everyone would be best served by taking one specific approach to birth seems a little ridiculous.

I do understand the desire to know how far along one is, although that's not something that can be accurately gauged. In any case, the idea that women are best served by birth being allowed to be an instinctive process isn't ridiculous at all, it's science. It is a fact that the more "intellectual" one attempts to be during the labor, the less normally the body functions. This is because the hormonal process is regulated by the primal part of our brain, and anything that engages the neocortex interferes with that.

Making a decision when to push based on measurements _is_ about bypassing the natural, instinctive process, which is unnecessary and creates dysfunction on some level.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts.


















There seem to be two basic camps in natural childbirth, the one that believes that pain is a necessary and even good part of childbirth (Birthing From Within) and the one that believes that pain is always the result of something the mother or those around her are doing wrong. While I don't believe that birth is inherently painful, and I do believe that the majority of pain in childbirth is created (by environment, mindset, lifestyle, etc.,) and unnecessary, I don't believe that _all_ women can experience painless labor without disassociating from their bodies via drugs or hypnosis (not talking here about relaxation techniques, but full hypnosis.)

I don't know why my births were so painful. I have some suspicions. But I can tell you without a doubt that it was not because I was fearful or negative or conditioned to believe it would be painful or perceiving the sensation as pain when it really wasn't, or because I was inhibited or self-conscious or my neocortex stimulated, or because the baby was posterior or asynclitic or because I was on my back or not moving around. For someone to say that if only I'd had a better attitude going into birth it wouldn't have been painful is insulting and ignorant. With my last, I protected my birth space like few women left on this earth are able to. I surrounded myself with positive female energy in the weeks before the birth. I surrendered to the hormonal changes and welcomed them. I regarded myself as a goddess and felt very sexual in the days leading up to the birth. I had plenty of opportunities to release oxytocin. I felt very sensual and inside of the birth experience. The labor and birth happened in darkness, quiet, warmth, coziness, love. I did not monitor or manage the labor in any way; it was allowed to be spontaneous and instinctive. I was not fearful; I looked forward to the birth. The baby was in a perfect position and I stayed out of reclining positions throughout the pregnancy and did a lot of squatting. I labored walking and on hands and knees, as felt best. I even had a "rest and be thankful stage" that was truly glorious and had me musing about the pleasurable birth surely to come. And then BAM! it was torturous again.

All of my births have been excruciatingly painful. The only one that was traumatic, however, was the one in which the midwife, the person I was supposed to trust, who was supposed to be on my side, believed that I could have control over my experience of the "sensations" if I wanted to and that I was making the birth unnecessarily hard on myself. I was told that this was because I was making the "wrong" sounds and faces, moving the "wrong" way, saying the "wrong" things. I was told I just needed to relax. For me to resist what my body was asking me to do (by trying to comply with the midwife's demands instead) prolonged the birth, but it was also emotionally hard to have to rely on someone who believed that the difficulty of my birth was due to character flaws.

So I worry that to tell women they can have a painless birth if they want or if they only do all the right things, is setting them up for failure. Certainly, those that would _only_ feel pain for environmental/psychological reasons are well served by this. But the women who experience pain for other reasons are going to be left feeling betrayed or guilty or flawed. This is a shame when birth can be a positive experience in spite of being painful. My next three births were all painful, yet all empowering and physiologically efficient. I felt incredible afterwards, and after my last birth, which was the first fully undisturbed one, no postpartum depression and no feeling of lack of bonding. We need to rethink the assumption that's gaining ground in the natural birth community that pain is nothing more than a mindset and that the only way a woman can have a truly good birth is to have a painless one.


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## BennyPai (Jul 22, 2005)

OP - Interesting thread. The first I've ever seen the erection/dilation comparison.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i think that this issue about 'supporting those who have painful births' gets confused by so many factors.

1. our culture tells us that birth is going to be absolutely painful, that it's painful for everyone. that the very nature of birth is painful.

2. our culture also tells us that pain is "bad" and we have a culture of pain-avoidance. got a small ache, take a pill. got a big ache, take a bigger pill. got a big pain, take an opiate. got a pain that's unavoidable but hasn't happened yet, consider heavy drugs, c-section, etc--and if you 'endure' it, you're doing so 'unnecessarily' and "to get a prize" (or some other nonsense).

then, you have this natural birth community who comes in with radical ideas:

1. birth isn't necessarily painful.

my understanding of this is that there are two ideas to the "causes" of pain: first, the natural course of labor (see 2); and second, stressors that make birth unnecessarily difficult.

the understanding here is, i believe, that women should do whatever they can to remove stressors, as this will likely reduce pain. assuming everything is done, there still may be pain--and that is OK.

2. the second thing taught in natural birthing circles is that birth pain--assuming it's not caused by stressors but by the natural course of birth--is appropriate and often necessary for the birthing process.

I admit that i don't necessarily understand all of the science behind this idea, but i have a 'feeling' for the philosophy or theory. the idea being that it's not necessary to avoid this pain, that it is, in a sense "good pain" that helps facilitate the birth process (and a myriad of other physical, emotional, and spiritual processes for both mother and child.

in both instances, it flies against the cultural conventions that pain is unavoidable in birth, and that because of this one should seek interventions to strive to avoid pain.

ultimately, this is the way that i think about it:

birth can be painful, and when it is, that is a normal process of birth. But, in some cases, birth is unnecessarily painful. when the pain's origin is stressors, then this is problematic. mothers should seek to avoid these stressors whenever possible to have a 'less painful' birth. She may still feel pain, but that is normal pain, and that is appropriate. Other mothers, once removing these stressors, may not feel pain in birth.

i don't know if that's a circle, but to me it supports everyone. If pain happens in birth, it could be perfectly normal. But, maybe it isn't in some/many cases, and they should look to decrease those causes if possible. And when they do, maybe there is still pain and maybe there isn't.

and both are normal.


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## Marvelleaux (Oct 2, 2006)

I want to thank all of you who have written in this post. I've never given birth before. We are planning a homebirth and I'm so grateful to you all for sharing your different experiences. I already feel like I'm better prepared for what may, or may not come and am intensely curious of what my birth will be like.

And now for my two bits:

It doesn't surprise me that there are so many differences in experiences regarding pain, or lack thereof, in your natural births. We may all be of the same species, but we're different biological creatures and physical experiences cannot be identical. We know this in our hearts, but it's true from an anatomical perspective as well. It is not just "in the head". In college I was given the opportunity to perform a human dissection. The man I was assigned to had died in his early 60's, and his medical records included some history of sensory complaints on one side of his body. Some way through my dissection I discoverd that this man had additional groupings of nerves on the same side of his body that were the source of his complaints. Not surprising, huh?


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
Birth is biologically a primal, instinctive, autonomic and involuntary function of the body. It's not something one needs to recognize the stages of to be able to do. Why do you feel you needed to know you were fully dilated, unless you were planning on bypassing that instinctive autonomic process in some way?

Beautifully articulated, fourlittlebirds...and this is why I really really like the idea of a man's arousal level and comparing that to a woman's cervix dialating...even in our Modern World, we all agree that in general, sex is still pretty primative, primal, and instictive.

What man would wait for a clinical confirmation of arousal? A man can rely on his feelings, both emotional and physical, about what his anatomy is doing, and what he wants to do next.

The woman who relies on her feelings about her readiness in labor? Show me a care provider that would trust _her_, instead of that care provider's fingered measurement.

"Don't push until you're complete!" and, "Push!!! You're complete!!"
What the woman wants to do with her private vagina and cervix is _not_ honored, in most birth scenarios (nor is her desired position for the pushing.)

Whether or not a modern American woman wants to know the intellectual details of the cervix's status does not change the fact that for our opposite gender, we live in a culture that supports their arousal awareness and honors their emotional connection with _their_ private parts.

Not true for the ladies, sadly.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
There seem to be two basic camps in natural childbirth, the one that believes that pain is a necessary and even good part of childbirth (Birthing From Within) and the one that believes that pain is always the result of something the mother or those around her are doing wrong.

I see this split too, and it has always seemed wierd to me--this idea that if a woman does everything right, the birth will be pain-free. Why do we have this? Lamaze breathing from the 60's? I don't get it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
While I don't believe that birth is inherently painful, and I do believe that the majority of pain in childbirth is created (by environment, mindset, lifestyle, etc.,) and unnecessary, I don't believe that _all_ women can experience painless labor without disassociating from their bodies via drugs or hypnosis (not talking here about relaxation techniques, but full hypnosis.)

I often think of the pain and agony of cesarean surgery, or epidural placement, or the IV insertion before the shot of Nubain, and wonder, how could any drugged birth experience--choices that might be made for the express desire to avoid 'childbirth pain'--actually truly be painfree? or I wonder, is it really _less_ painful this way? (For example, comparing a "standard"-pain homebirth with a lie-in-bed-but-with-lots-of-Demorol hospital birth? which one 'hurts' more?)

I think it's ironic. And I think it robs women of their choices--mainstream culture suggests that the hospital's drugs guarantee escape from pain, when for many, it might _not_ be a guarantee. "You're one of them crazy birthing freaks" if you are to suggest that a woman could have a pretty decent go of labor with _just_ her uterus working and providing the pain--but allowing rests in between, in contrast to an epidural which might provide relief after a woman gets her bag of IV fluids, the epidural can hurt when it's inserted, a urinary catheter is now required, and Pitocin drip to counteract the lagging epidural'd contraction pattern, and on and on....


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
I often think of the pain and agony of cesarean surgery, or epidural placement, or the IV insertion before the shot of Nubain, and wonder, how could any drugged birth experience--choices that might be made for the express desire to avoid 'childbirth pain'--actually truly be painfree?

I know my experience isn't the norm, but the IV insertion and epidural insertion were NOTHING compared to the contractions I was having. I barely noticed them.

On the other hand, having the catheter inserted for my C-section while the epidural was at half strength was the most painful single moment of my life and I had to be physically held down while two nurses did it. I'd rather have pushed for another hour or two than go through THAT, but I didn't know what it would be like before it happened. The C-section itself was totally painless, though. It felt like they were moving my belly around with my hands, about the same as an external ultrasound.

I guess my point is, you can't really predict what's going to be most painful for different people, which drugs will work on which people, what part of birth will be hardest ... and it's important to avoid making any absolutely proclamations about what labor and birth are like for women.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
On the other hand, having the catheter inserted for my C-section while the epidural was at half strength was the most painful single moment of my life and I had to be physically held down while two nurses did it.

OUCH!

yeah.....that's what I'm talkin' about....ask these lovely young women today how they want to have a baby, and they want a c-section like Britney Spears, because it's pain-free.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
OUCH!

yeah.....that's what I'm talkin' about....ask these lovely young women today how they want to have a baby, and they want a c-section like Britney Spears, because it's pain-free.

IMHO, the real travesty is anyone ever inserting a catheter before the spinal anesthesia kicks in! But yes, it's never really pain-free ... even if the surgery goes easily, the recovery is no picnic.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

My SIL won't give me the details, but she said something about maybe trying "the Lamaze way" next time, just to avoid the catheter and its complications (she apparently needed some surgical procedure a couple months after!). This is the woman who, before she was even married to my brother, much less was pregnant, announced that she was getting an epidural and she didn't want to hear anything against it.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
On the other hand, having the catheter inserted for my C-section while the epidural was at half strength was the most painful single moment of my life and I had to be physically held down while two nurses did it.

That's awful. My mom told me that the last time she had a catheter placed she was about ready to have a nervous breakdown because she was remembering her previous one which she described like you did. The nurse said, oh, no worry, we can just deaden the area before we do it. What the.... ? Why would't they just do that routinely? Or why couldn't they wait until the epidural was fully working? Was it a life or death situation for you to have that catheter placed immediately? Would it have been so much a travesty for you to actually pee on the operating table that torturing you was so freaking preferable? It's really hard to understand the mindset. I was just thinking this morning about my son's ER experience when he dislocated his thumb. He and I still have flashbacks from it, it was so awful the way it was handled until I figured out a few things and was able to be his advocate. The thing is, all the pain they caused him was _totally unnecessary._ What the hell is wrong with people that this seemingly happens so often? Are so many medical people so clueless? Are they idiots? Are they sadists? I just don't understand.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
I really really like the idea of a man's arousal level and comparing that to a woman's cervix dialating...even in our Modern World, we all agree that in general, sex is still pretty primative, primal, and instictive.

What man would wait for a clinical confirmation of arousal? A man can rely on his feelings, both emotional and physical, about what his anatomy is doing, and what he wants to do next.

Yes. I know this is not going to be a popular thing to say, and I often dance around it, but I'm feeling emboldened by the OP







but...

in the same way that many of us regard the unnecessarily clinicized or mechanized sexual experience, where passion is absent, as perverse or lacking in some way, I regard the unnecessarily clinicized or mechanized birth as perverse and lacking. I realize most people don't experience it as such, and to me that is part of the tragedy -- that we have been so conditioned to believe that it's a valid and good way to give birth that we don't even question it, that women are not even aware of what has been lost. Even when we're hurt by it in myriad ways (assuming women are even aware of the connection, which many are not,) it's "just the way it is." This is insanity. It's one thing to make decisions based on safety and comfort. It's another to choose a style of birth management that does not only _not_ guarantee those things, but can directly interfere with their acquisition, and for most women _does_ guarantee the loss of a spiritual, ecstatic, emotionally and physically whole, physiologically normal birth and bonding.

It's like if we lived in a society in which the woman's good sexual experience was considered a mark of depravity and it was just expected, and taught, that sex was an awful, painful thing done to you that you just must accept. Doesn't that sound crazy? But such subcultures have existed in the world, and they didn't think they were crazy, although a lot of women did suffer. And in our society it's regarded as selfish to avoid a mechanized, medicalized, non-ecstatic birth. The parallels are just too close to be denied.


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## OkieMama2three (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
What man would wait for a clinical confirmation of arousal? A man can rely on his feelings, both emotional and physical, about what his anatomy is doing, and what he wants to do next.

Very true that a man would not wait to be told he was aroused, but let's be honest here, a man's arousal is pretty obvious visually. The cervix is hidden (I believe for a reason, it's not supposed to be observed!) and so in order for the care provider to assure him/herself that progress is in fact taking place, they feel a need "measure" instead of relying on the mother's intuition. Afterall, who among us hasn't heard the birth story that the woman came in at 3 and after hours of labor was sure she had made good progress, only to be told she was still at a 3. I have heard that Ina May suggests that the act of measuring creates the regression and that perhaps there was progress, but that's another topic for another thread.....

Anyhow, I agree w/the OP and really most of what has been said so far, I just don't think the above is a fair analogy. My .02 FWIW.......


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OkieMama2three* 
Very true that a man would not wait to be told he was aroused, but let's be honest here, a man's arousal is pretty obvious visually.

I think the point was that it _doesn't_ have to be observed for it to happen, or to be allowed to happen.

Quote:

The cervix is hidden (I believe for a reason, it's not supposed to be observed!) and so in order for the care provider to assure him/herself that progress is in fact taking place, they feel a need "measure" instead of relying on the mother's intuition.
But that's the care provider's problem, not the mother's. There are better indicators of progress than checking dilation, but even those aren't necessary for the process to happen. Birth doesn't need any of them any more than sex does.


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## OkieMama2three (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
I think the point was that it _doesn't_ have to be observed for it to happen, or to be allowed to happen.

Ah, okay, I misinterpreted that part then.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
But that's the care provider's problem, not the mother's. There are better indicators of progress than checking dilation, but even those aren't necessary for the process to happen. Birth doesn't need any of them any more than sex does.

Agreed! (I wasn't very clear in my post, oops.) I'm not at all condoning internals, in fact I feel they are really pretty worthless in the grand scheme of things which is why I've declined them for all of my births.

BTW, my DH agreed wholeheartedly w/the anal checks being a deterrent to pooping!


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

For those of you who believe that childbirth is essentially an instinctive process for which conscious thought on the part of the mother is counter-productive:

Given that, before the advent of modern medicine, women and babies used to die in childbirth in much larger numbers than they do today, is it your contention that while the mother should avoid thinking during childbirth, it is the job of her birth attendants to do the thinking for her? For example, by identifying situations in which some assistance may be required?

If it were possible for the mother to take drugs which would disassociate her conscious mind from awareness of her body altogether, do you think that would lead to better birth outcomes?


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

pookel said:


> Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life? Yes. First experience I've ever had that made me wish I were dead? Yes. There's no possibility of feeling safe and secure when you're in that kind of pain.
> 
> 
> > Oh, I'm so sad to read that. I agree about the pain; for me it was just unbelievable. But in my second birth, I did feel safe and secure. There was a time when I was screaming and desperate, but I did not feel at risk and I did not feel unsafe. I DID feel loved and supported and cared for in the midst of that. Pain and safety don't have to be opposing factors. The safety made the pain survivable.


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## Babes in arms (Sep 24, 2005)

No. Not at all. During my last two births I was totally within myself. Labor land 110%. But, I was also fully aware of my body and all that it was doing.

The birth attendants do need to be on the look out for any complications. But, so do the mom and the prenatal caregiver. Most problems arise before labor. So, you know going in whether this will likely be a complicated birth or not.

As far as the higher death rates, it's very hard to compare these apples and those oranges. Life was different then. People lived in different conditions. Sometimes there was malnourishment. Sometimes there was filth. Geez, doctors used to mess with dead people then insert their embalming fluid covered hands into the vaginas of birthing women without so much as wiping them off. So, go figure, people died. Others out there surely know more about this then I do. But, I know that their life was just so different from ours. And the complications were more of a result of those differences then anything directly related to the birth process. We are designed to birth. It's really just as simple as that.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers*
Given that, before the advent of modern medicine, women and babies used to die in childbirth in much larger numbers than they do today, is it your contention that while the mother should avoid thinking during childbirth, it is the job of her birth attendants to do the thinking for her? For example, by identifying situations in which some assistance may be required?

First off, _why_ did mamas used to die in childbirth?

the number 1 and 2 reasons: infection and post-partum hemmorage
(Today we can control these staph infections with antibiotics [who do you know that died from a uterine infection as a result of labor/childbirth] and post-partum hemmorage is controlled by medications or hystorectomy [instead of simply dying.])

They didn't die 'coz they weren't thinking. They didn't die because they pushed against a 9.5 cm dilated cervix with "just a lip" that their nonexistant OB could have 'helped' them with.

In my opinion, woman should avoid "thinking" during labor/childbirth. That is the birth attendant's job. While pregnant, the woman gets to decide whether or not she wants to invite a "brain" to her birth.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers*
If it were possible for the mother to take drugs which would disassociate her conscious mind from awareness of her body altogether, do you think that would lead to better birth outcomes?

YES!

And the coolest thing is: no drugs are neccessary.

If a woman can have an unhindered* birth experience, her conscious mind will dissociate from her body, and her primitive "monkey brain" will take over, and that is the passionate, primal part of a woman that will stay in-tune with the body and bodily sensations, and will allow a woman to go to "LaborLand", a state of mind where her nerdy cerebral cortex is far, faaaaar away, and her monkeybrain and body and baby are all together, all in the moment.

I do think that arrangement leads to better birth outcomes--fabulous birth outcomes, safe outcomes, pleasant outcomes, pleasant labors, orgasmic births, happy times for one and all. I do not think that the hormonal cocktail in unhindered women is a guarantee that labor won't hurt; but I think it's the only way it might _not_ hurt.

from: http://www.sarahjbuckley.com/article...atic-birth.htm

Quote:

For birth to proceed optimally, this part of the brain must take precedence over the neocortex, or rational brain. This shift can be helped by an atmosphere of quiet and privacy with, for example, dim lighting and little conversation, and no expectation of rationality from the laboring woman. Under such conditions a woman intuitively will choose the movements, sounds, breathing, and positions that will birth her baby most easily. This is her genetic and hormonal blueprint.
regarding improved safety: http://www.wombecology.com/fetusejection.html

Quote:

Today I consider this "reflex" as the necessary physiological reference from which one should try not to deviate too much. During the powerful and irresistible contractions of an authentic ejection reflex there is no room for voluntary movements. A cultural misunderstanding of birth physiology is the main reason why the birth of the baby is usually preceded by a second stage, which may be presented as a disruption of the fetus ejection reflex.(3) All events that are dependent on the release of oxytocin (particularly childbirth, intercourse and lactation) are highly influenced by environmental factors.
Michel Odent is a verbose Frenchman......basically what he is saying is, if a woman can birth without getting freaked out, her natural hormonal response is to have a big ol' surge of oxytocin at the time of crowning that will allow the fetus to fly out of the birth canal, which he asserts is safer for baby.

*"unhindered" will mean different things to different women: for some it is a UC, for others it is a homebirth with lots of sisters, doulas, and support, for another woman it is her partner and her midwife, for someone else it's alone with her doula in a hospital room's dark bathroom with the on-call OB far away down the hall....etc, etc.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
That's awful. My mom told me that the last time she had a catheter placed she was about ready to have a nervous breakdown because she was remembering her previous one which she described like you did. The nurse said, oh, no worry, we can just deaden the area before we do it. What the.... ? Why would't they just do that routinely? Or why couldn't they wait until the epidural was fully working? Was it a life or death situation for you to have that catheter placed immediately? Would it have been so much a travesty for you to actually pee on the operating table that torturing you was so freaking preferable?

Excellent points...

How many car crash victims end up peeing on the table in the ER? Drug overdoses covered in puke and urine? "Sterile field" is not enough of a reason. In a rush and not giving a s%#@, that is the reason.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
The thing is, all the pain they caused him was _totally unnecessary._ What the hell is wrong with people that this seemingly happens so often? Are so many medical people so clueless? Are they idiots? Are they sadists? I just don't understand.


from First, do no harm

Quote:

Primum non nocere is a Latin phrase that means "First, do no harm." The phrase is sometimes recorded as primum nil nocere.

It is one of the principal precepts all medical students are taught in medical school. It reminds a physician that he or she must consider the possible harm that any intervention might do.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelGS* 
Oh, I'm so sad to read that. I agree about the pain; for me it was just unbelievable. But in my second birth, I did feel safe and secure. There was a time when I was screaming and desperate, but I did not feel at risk and I did not feel unsafe. I DID feel loved and supported and cared for in the midst of that. Pain and safety don't have to be opposing factors. The safety made the pain survivable.

I don't understand how anyone can feel safe while they're experiencing pain that makes them want to shoot themselves. Maybe we have different definitions of safe. In my case, I didn't CARE that I was loved or supported. I'd rather have been unloved and in less pain if I'd had a choice.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I know you said "most people" and weren't necessarily talking about me, but I want to emphasize that I felt very positive going into the birth experience. I was calm and felt well-prepared and ready for labor and birth, even if it was hard and painful. I wasn't prepared to feel like someone was hitting my back with a chainsaw every four minutes for hours on end!

I don't mean to take away from this thread's original message, but I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts. I get depressed when I see so many threads saying things like "labor is easy and natural!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" because reading that kind of thing over and over left me unprepared for what I actually experienced.


I have not caugh tup on this thread yet, but had to reply hear. what do you mean by validation? to say, oh, you had it hard, so pumping drugs into your and babies bodies really was ok? Everyone has to make there own choices, I fully respect that. Everyone has a different experience and coping level, I totally understand that. As long as you feel good about the decisions you make (I am not talking about you, either, all generic, if anything more towards the people i see IRL in my area) then I say no more.
BUT I wont sit back and say I think it is OK to do those things because your laobor hurt more than most.

My third labor and birth was VERY painful, long and difficult. I was not prepared. I had a typical first birth, a typical second birth (yes, pain involved) and a VERY painful third with a posterior large baby.
I still feel that it is natural, instinctual, and with the proper support, knowledge and state of mind, can be much less painful.
And reguardless of how painful it is, it doesnt have to feel like a negative experience. I just feel sad for those who do end up with the neg feeling from birth.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato3cherubs* 
BUT I wont sit back and say I think it is OK to do those things because your laobor hurt more than most.

What bothers me is the women who had easy, or relatively easy, natural births, and then think it's OK to judge anyone who doesn't go natural because THEY did it. I'm pretty sure that a lot of them (not all) would have made the same decisions I did if they'd been in the same amount of pain.


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

Not everyone can deal well with pain. I don't deal well with it at all, and I do whatever I possibly can to avoid it. I don't admire it, I don't want it, I don't glorify it, and I don't have any experience where pain made me any stronger or augmented my self-respect. Others may vary; that's the beauty of being human.

It's important for women to honestly describe their pain experience in birth, and it is equally important for the listener to understand that there is no template for the pain experience in any situation. Everyone is different, which makes every response unique.

I did not want the pain of childbirth, so I didn't have any children. Plain and simple. Since I didn't want to suffer the pain, I didn't have the child. Very clear-cut. Unless I adopted, there was no way to get the child without the pain, so no child.

It was very clear to me, and it was predicated on the honesty of women regarding their pain experiences in childbirth. I am grateful to this day for the honesty.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
Not everyone can deal well with pain. I don't deal well with it at all, and I do whatever I possibly can to avoid it. I don't admire it, I don't want it, I don't glorify it, and I don't have any experience where pain made me any stronger or augmented my self-respect. Others may vary; that's the beauty of being human.

It's important for women to honestly describe their pain experience in birth, and it is equally important for the listener to understand that there is no template for the pain experience in any situation. Everyone is different, which makes every response unique.

I did not want the pain of childbirth, so I didn't have any children. Plain and simple. Since I didn't want to suffer the pain, I didn't have the child. Very clear-cut. Unless I adopted, there was no way to get the child without the pain, so no child.

It was very clear to me, and it was predicated on the honesty of women regarding their pain experiences in childbirth. I am grateful to this day for the honesty.

I love this post.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
Not everyone can deal well with pain. I don't deal well with it at all, and I do whatever I possibly can to avoid it. I don't admire it, I don't want it, I don't glorify it, and I don't have any experience where pain made me any stronger or augmented my self-respect. Others may vary; that's the beauty of being human.

It's important for women to honestly describe their pain experience in birth, and it is equally important for the listener to understand that there is no template for the pain experience in any situation. Everyone is different, which makes every response unique.

I did not want the pain of childbirth, so I didn't have any children. Plain and simple. Since I didn't want to suffer the pain, I didn't have the child. Very clear-cut. Unless I adopted, there was no way to get the child without the pain, so no child.

It was very clear to me, and it was predicated on the honesty of women regarding their pain experiences in childbirth. I am grateful to this day for the honesty.

I agree, not everyone can deal with pain WELL. But everyone can deal with it. Then pain of childbirth doesnt last for ever and I have never heard of it Killing someone. As I have said, I had an extreamly painful birth, and after the first 2 i feel i had a high pain tollerance.
I ussually avoid thes types of discussions, and I am not trying to be rude, and have never said to anyone "I look down upon you" or "you are a bad person" ect to someone who used drugs in labor. but i still feel it is wrong. It is poison, and the baby has no say in it. It is not ok to me and not excusable.

I took 1 dose of a narcotic pain reliever via IV during labor with my first son. I was 17. I knew better, but only by instinct. I didnt have any info on it. I regreted it the second it went in, and prayed for it to go away and for me to be forgiven for what I had done. I still feel the guilt of it, and used to wonder what effects it had had on my ds. Now i am able to recognize what it had done, the visible things anyhow.

I do not feel the need to tell anyone who has just had a child how i feel about this. Nor am I going to so strongly express it to a client. As I dont think people need to be hurt in that way over things they cant change, and did out of lack of education.

But I will tell everyone else how i feel, if that makes sense. And I will do my best to educate those who dont know, esspecially those who willbe having a child in the future, such as a client.

Just had to get that out, i guess


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## Qalliope (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:

Michel Odent is a verbose Frenchman......basically what he is saying is, if a woman can birth without getting freaked out, her natural hormonal response is to have a big ol' surge of oxytocin at the time of crowning that will allow the fetus to fly out of the birth canal, which he asserts is safer for baby.
Indeed it seems that research is starting to show that big surge of hormones at the end DOES make it safer. Read this article! Wish I could find the fulltext for the study rather than just a blurb.

Quote:

In the new study, which appears in the Dec. 15 issue of the journal Science, researchers in Germany and France report that a surge in a mother rat's oxytocin levels during childbirth calmed neurotransmitters, essentially quieting the brain so it won't need as much oxygen.

Essentially, oxytocin is "neuroprotective," ...
The last line of the article makes me want to







, though. Way to take a good, important bit of information, which supports the assertions of the natural birth community and run the completely opposite direction with it.







: Directly pumping a fetus full of synthetic oxytocin to protect it from a "difficult" labor? Sounds like a great idea to me.







: Though maybe I am misinterpreting what he said there.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamato3cherubs* 
I agree, not everyone can deal with pain WELL. But everyone can deal with it. Then pain of childbirth doesnt last for ever and I have never heard of it Killing someone.

Surviving and being able to deal with it are not the same thing. Some women get PTSD from the pain of childbirth. For me it was a major cause of PPD.

The potential harm to the baby from having a mother suffering from PPD (which interferes with bonding and can interfere with breastfeeding - did in my case) far outweighs the theoretical harm to the baby from painkilling drugs, IMHO.


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

Thank you for your kind response to my post. I appreciate it.

I wish to augment a point I failed to completely detail in my original posting. I do disagree with your assertion that everyone can deal with pain at some level, however inadequately. I assume your assertation defines dealing with pain as enduring it and/or physically surviving it. That may or may not be the case, but that discussion is beyond the scope of this post.

I suggest that there are people who can't deal with the pain of childbirth. These are the women who develop PTSD as a result of the experience. These are the women who suffer PPD directly attributable to the childbirth experience, as defined by the mother. These are the women who kill their children, like Andrea Yates, because they ignored their responsibility to obtain adequate mental health help and failed to address the PTSD and PPD before it became psychosis. These are the women who have abortions rather than experience childbirth because they suffer from tokophobia--extreme fear of childbirth--a phobia far more common than anyone on this board might believe.

So yes, if my heart is still beating and I am not imminently psychotic after birth, I guess you could say I survived it; I survived the pain. But is that really survival? Is that an appropriate outcome, however unintended? Should I live with lifelong--or even months or years long--mental illness? Should I grieve for the body I enjoyed and respected before I had a child? Should I experience months and possibly years of flashbacks and nightmares from a birth so terrorizing that I poorly recover from it psychologically?

I assert no. I maintain that the participants on this board address the incorrect issue. I argue that if you believe--as you are free to do--that any intervention for pain in childbirth is poison, that you should also argue for no births by women who cannot endure natural childbirth. Personally, I agree, but my opinion is irrelevant. I'm not the birthing mother, so I don't get to comment on her decision.

As far as the common experience of birth being painfree naturally or orgasmic or whatever, my admittedly anecdotal research indicates otherwise. There will always be people who do not experience pain in the same way as other people. My own mother routinely has her teeth filled without any novacaine at all. Other necessary physical interventions over the years have been similarly endured. But my mother freely admits her experience of pain is vastly different than that of most other people. It just...is. We tease her; she's used to it by now. But it is a very uncommon response, and most likely has something to do with the way her nerve endings are bundled in the brain.

I am well over 40 years old now and perimenopausal. I did not have a child because I don't cope with pain at all so I couldn't tolerate the pain of childbirth. I deeply valued the honest input from women who experienced the pain involved in giving birth, and who were willing to clearly detail it, despite societal pressure to keep quiet. If women cannot tolerate the pain of birth with just the comfort measures available in natural childbirth, maybe they shouldn't have a child. That would put an end to the epidural/elective csection problem in this country very quickly. That's why the honest assessment of pain is so valuable on this board. Women should read it thoroughly before considering a pregnancy.

It's a shame that there is no way to have a baby--other than adoption, which I am not addressing here--without suffering the assault of hours and maybe even days of torturous pain in order to do so. But nobody asked me if I liked it.

That's reality. And that's why I don't have a child.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

This theory works for most, but what about the rest of us? A few PP have touched on this.

I have a BIL that because of injury, for him to poop is a big deal. It just might seem like rocket science. For some conceptions are more complicated than rocket science, and other than the father/sperm donor's ejaculation, which is damn pleasurless DH assures me, there is no sex.

Some of our conceptions, pregnancies, births etc are complicated and would not occur without intervention, assistance and technology.

Not trying to rain on the mostly agreeing with the OP, who does make good points, just another POV.

I wish there was a way that these discussions could occur without seeming to look down on those of us who had them for whatever reason. Like I'm less of a mom because of what it took for DD to get here.

I read on here a lot of talk about inclusion and diversity. Maybe try to realize that not all women will EVER have the birth to many here may seem the ideal birth.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intorainbowz* 
This theory works for most, but what about the rest of us? A few PP have touched on this.

I have a BIL that because of injury, for him to poop is a big deal. It just might seem like rocket science. For some conceptions are more complicated than rocket science, and other than the father/sperm donor's ejaculation, which is damn pleasurless DH assures me, there is no sex.

Some of our conceptions, pregnancies, births etc are complicated and would not occur without intervention, assistance and technology.

Not trying to rain on the mostly agreeing with the OP, who does make good points, just another POV.

I feel like you _are_ talking about my POV, intorainbowz, with what you're pointing out here:

You've got one BIL for whom pooping is a big deal. To me, that mirrors the 1970's c-section rate of 7%--those who really needed cesarean surgery got it, and the "slow labor" crowd of women who 'failed to progress' didn't experience the surgery.

You speak of couples who require assisted reproductive technologies. I concider many of these ARTs miraculous and helpful, BUT, I do not think that 30% of couples need artificial insemenation or other techniques to achieve pregnancy.

Just like I do not think it's ok that 30% of the pregnant women in our country experience a cesarean section.

Sure--sometimes birth, conception, pooping, digestion can be rocket science, because when these normal functions become unusual, unusual measures must be deployed. Just because I breathe every day on my own does not mean that when I am in a car crash I don't want CPR, since it's not "natural" and breathing is "easy for most of us."

The key is this: our culture is so outta whack with birth, that we ACCEPT and hold as NORMAL a cesarean rate of 30%...that is 1 in three. ONE IN THREE. How come when we were all babies 9 out of 10 of our moms could expect a vaginal birth, but now only 2 out of 3 mothers can expect that?

And we as a culture accept this level of birth tinkering....no one is in the streets raving about this (except me, every nite, from 8:30 pm to 11:30







) You need a lot of rocket science to maintain a cesarean birth rate of 30%--so I'm just sayin', actually, it's NOT rocket science. Birth doesn't/shouldn't require intra-abdominal surgery _30% of the time._


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

That article was really interesting! But then he said . . .

Quote:

What's next? "We might want to intentionally give babies oxytocin to help them survive difficult pregnancies," Taylor said.
Instead of saying "maybe some of the routine interference with birth is prohibiting the naturally protective effect of oxytocin," they immediately jump to administering synthetic oxytocin. While I think that makes sense in limited cases, why can't this doctor see the corollary - that the human body was designed to give birth and has some built-in methods of handling the process, that perhaps we shouldn't be in such a rush to interrupt?

Here I thought the "What's Next?" question would lead to some sort of validation of the natural process of birth . . .

Sorry, that just stinks.







:

Julia
dd 9mos


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## Qalliope (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
That article was really interesting! But then he said . . .

Instead of saying "maybe some of the routine interference with birth is prohibiting the naturally protective effect of oxytocin," they immediately jump to administering synthetic oxytocin. While I think that makes sense in limited cases, why can't this doctor see the corollary - that the human body was designed to give birth and has some built-in methods of handling the process, that perhaps we shouldn't be in such a rush to interrupt?

Here I thought the "What's Next?" question would lead to some sort of validation of the natural process of birth . . .

Sorry, that just stinks.







:

Julia
dd 9mos

I totally agree, it's stupid. Haven't we already proven that idea WON'T WORK?! I mean, moms are frequently induced or augmented with huge doses of pitocin and it clearly does not have a protective effect when intentionally administered. It CAUSES fetal distress quite often.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

The implication that a bunch of us crazy homebirthers sitting around discussing how birth is not rocket science and how the section rate in north america is too high is somehow casting judgement on those who have the rare complications is not even worth my response. Remember, nobody can *make* you feel guilty or judged.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
I feel like you _are_ talking about my POV, intorainbowz, with what you're pointing out here:

You've got one BIL for whom pooping is a big deal. To me, that mirrors the 1970's c-section rate of 7%--those who really needed cesarean surgery got it, and the "slow labor" crowd of women who 'failed to progress' didn't experience the surgery.

You speak of couples who require assisted reproductive technologies. I concider many of these ARTs miraculous and helpful, BUT, I do not think that 30% of couples need artificial insemenation or other techniques to achieve pregnancy.

Just like I do not think it's ok that 30% of the pregnant women in our country experience a cesarean section.

Sure--sometimes birth, conception, pooping, digestion can be rocket science, because when these normal functions become unusual, unusual measures must be deployed. Just because I breathe every day on my own does not mean that when I am in a car crash I don't want CPR, since it's not "natural" and breathing is "easy for most of us."

The key is this: our culture is so outta whack with birth, that we ACCEPT and hold as NORMAL a cesarean rate of 30%...that is 1 in three. ONE IN THREE. How come when we were all babies 9 out of 10 of our moms could expect a vaginal birth, but now only 2 out of 3 mothers can expect that?

And we as a culture accept this level of birth tinkering....no one is in the streets raving about this (except me, every nite, from 8:30 pm to 11:30







) You need a lot of rocket science to maintain a cesarean birth rate of 30%--so I'm just sayin', actually, it's NOT rocket science. Birth doesn't/shouldn't require intra-abdominal surgery _30% of the time._


ooh I would so love to get in your brain. I was reading some of the responses thinking, yes, I get that point but how do I articulate why birth is not rocket science for the majority of people... you figured it out!

Thank you!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Remember, nobody can *make* you feel guilty or judged.

I hate this attitude. It's such a cop-out. It's like saying, "hey, if I just insulted you, it's not my fault, it's yours!"

I'm not saying that anyone has been insulted in this specific case. But people most certainly CAN "make" other people feel guilty or judged, and it's reprehensible to blame the victim for it.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I hate this attitude. It's such a cop-out. It's like saying, "hey, if I just insulted you, it's not my fault, it's yours!"

I'm not saying that anyone has been insulted in this specific case. But people most certainly CAN "make" other people feel guilty or judged, and it's reprehensible to blame the victim for it.

I'm kinda with Pookel here. I mean, if I say I had a rather uneventful birth but needed a smidge of help to finish, and that I had 8 hrs of excruciating pain, and the response is "Oh, well I don't think that women who are unafraid of birth feel (insert optional: bad) pain unless something's really, really wrong," then sure I'm being judged, and sure I feel it. The clear message is that if I'd just been _________ (actually unafraid, actually emotionally ready, whatever) then I wouldn't have suffered the way I did.

I'm not crying into my hankie here







, but it smarts a bit when you do your best, go through so much agony you end up with mild PTSD, and then there's this insinuation that it only hurt b/c there was something "wrong" with me - I must have been unprepared, afraid, secretly harboring fear of the birth process, etc.

The most important thing I've learned about childbirth is that every woman experiences it differently (and the same woman often experiences each birth differently), and I can't judge another woman's experience based on my own - or based on all the other birth stories I've read. Which is why I tend to try to be helpful, supportive, and open to other womens' attitudes about their births, since my experience and knowledge probably can't touch hers (about her own birth).

In purely general, hypothetical discussions I just put my general perspective in and don't take others' comments personally, though I will respond if I feel the discussion is "missing something" that I've experienced.

Julia
dd 9mos


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
The implication that a bunch of us crazy homebirthers sitting around discussing how birth is not rocket science and how the section rate in north america is too high is somehow casting judgement on those who have the rare complications is not even worth my response. Remember, nobody can *make* you feel guilty or judged.

While I certainly agree with you that no one can make you feel guilty, people certainly do make judgements here on MDC (and everywhere else) all the time, and it does lead to people feeling judged.

I think it's a shame that many women who did the best they knew how to do during their own birth experiences wind up feeling unsupported and negatively judged here. I actually met a woman once who spent months mourning the loss of her natural childbirth experience even though she had total placenta previa. I suspect she wouldn't have been so distressed by the whole thing if she hadn't been exposed to such strong views on the benefits of natural childbirth, and the horrors of medical intervention.

It would be a wonderful thing if our health care system weren't set up in such a way as to discourage natural childbirth. I don't think anyone (here) disputes that. But it's also not the case that pain-relief drugs are somehow inherently evil. A woman who genuinely needed a c-section shouldn't be made to feel that the drugs she had to take in order to make that possible will necessarily interfere with nursing or cause long-term problems in her child -- because in most cases, any such problems that may exist are sufficiently subtle that it's not really possible to tell whether they were caused by the drugs or by some other factor. I know someone who found her (necessary) emergency c-section so traumatic that she seriously considered never having any more children because she was terrified of having another one. I know her well enough to know that part of the reason she was so traumatized was because she believed so strongly in the value of natural childbirth.

I think we'd all be better served if we worked to get to the root of the problem -- through activism, through conversations with our own health care providers, by genuinely trying to understand each other, and so on -- rather than by casting these issues in the kind of black and white terms that only serve to create divisions between people whose differences of opinion are more in shades of gray.

Of course, I'd also like to see a world where more of us cared less about what other people thought of our choices. Which is, I suppose, part of ndunn's point.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Skueppers, great post, thanks. Wish I'd been able to put it that way!









Julia
dd 9mos


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I hate this attitude. It's such a cop-out. It's like saying, "hey, if I just insulted you, it's not my fault, it's yours!"

I'm not saying that anyone has been insulted in this specific case. But people most certainly CAN "make" other people feel guilty or judged, and it's reprehensible to blame the victim for it.

It's not an attitude, its simply the truth. When someone says something not to you, but in general, you can choose to take that comment personally and get upset about it, or you can choose to say "hey, I might not have liked that, but I'm not going to pay any mind to things that are negative to me".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should all just say whatever we want to eachother, no! I'm just saying that at the end of the day, if you feel someone else's opinion is a bit off base for you, ignore it.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
While I certainly agree with you that no one can make you feel guilty, people certainly do make judgements here on MDC (and everywhere else) all the time, and it does lead to people feeling judged.

I agree with you that there are alot of people who are strongly opinionated, but whether you choose to see someone posting a fact as judgement or simply information is kind of up to the individual.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
I think it's a shame that many women who did the best they knew how to do during their own birth experiences wind up feeling unsupported and negatively judged here. I actually met a woman once who spent months mourning the loss of her natural childbirth experience even though she had total placenta previa. I suspect she wouldn't have been so distressed by the whole thing if she hadn't been exposed to such strong views on the benefits of natural childbirth, and the horrors of medical intervention.

But I guess the way I see it is that its her right to mourn her natural birth if she really wanted one. Who's to say that all women mourning their natural birth would rather just be okay with their experience. I know if I had a c-section personally it would cause me alot of grief and I hope that the people around me would give that the validity it deserves and support me through the greiving process, because that is how I feel that I learn and move on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Of course, I'd also like to see a world where more of us cared less about what other people thought of our choices. Which is, I suppose, part of ndunn's point.









Ya that is what I was trying to get at, but I'm not always so eloquent!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
It's not an attitude, its simply the truth. When someone says something not to you, but in general, you can choose to take that comment personally and get upset about it, or you can choose to say "hey, I might not have liked that, but I'm not going to pay any mind to things that are negative to me".

I don't know about you, but I don't have the luxury of being able to choose whether someone's comments hurt my feelings. I can pretend it doesn't hurt, but I can't make it not hurt. Emotions don't work that way.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

Been following along and enjoying the analogies. I think the pooping/sex analogy is a good one as the OP kept elaborating - it's not that it's always easy and painfree and normal, but that it usually is and should be treated as such - with appropriate interventions when it's not.
I like to say the birth should be ordinary and normal - but also sacred and extraordinary at the same time.

I do feel that just as women experience labor differently (and after attending hundreds of women, I firmly believe that labor feels differently and is in fact different for different women) women's emotional response to their births is different, too. What will be terribly traumatic and take years to recover from for one woman will be forgotten in a day for another. Some of this is societal and some of it is just how we experience our life experiences. All aspects of your life influence how you react to your next life experience. I don't think it's fair to say that women who need cesarean births wouldn't have a negative reaction if they didn't misguidedly desire an unintervened birth - some would and some wouldn't.
I do think it is important to always, always be sensitive to someone's experience and recognize that it is their experience - but I'm also prepared to be forgiving of folks who don't have a range of experiences and thus have too narrow a view of someone else's experience. For example, someone who comes from a homebirth culture and has great access to a wide range of birthing choices and then has a great homebirth may not understand the experience of someone going through a medically complicated pregnancy (severe IUGR comes to mind as an example on this thread.) Both parties may need to realize that the experience looks quite different depending on where you stand.
Can one person make another feel guilty? Yes and no, right? I've seen really negative comments thrown at people here (generic here, on mdc, not this thread) which I can't see how there was any intent other than to make the recipient feel bad (Such as "I think anyone who sees a doctor for prenatal care is stupid." in response to someone's medically needed intervention story) and I've seen perfecty innocent comments trigger big reactions (such as when someone posts about their great homebirth like "our birth was so nice" and someone else responds with "you are making me feel bad because I really needed a cesarean so you shouldn't get to celebrate your great birth because it hurts my feelings.") The first type of comment should obviously be avoided, and the second type still has the potential to cause negative reactions in a grieving or hurting person, but perhaps that is less due to the intent and content of the comment and more due to the ongoing experience of the listener. Does that make sense?

Also - to clear up one thing from way up the thread just because it is bugging me - a foley catheter is placed in the bladder during a cesarean birth to keep the bladder fully drained and out of the way. A full bladder lies along the lower part of the uterus and makes bladder damage more likely during the surgery. No one is worried about getting pee on the operating table or even in the field (except for that to get in the field you would have had to cut open the bladder or ureter which would be a great disaster.) Having said that, there is no excuse for putting the catheter in before the anesthesia is working in a non-emergent cesarean - and in the rare case where it needs to be placed in a mother with feeling, there is no excuse for not doing so compasisonately and with good explanation for what it will likely feel like, with no dismissal of the woman's feelings if she finds it more uncomfortable.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctorjen* 
Having said that, there is no excuse for putting the catheter in before the anesthesia is working in a non-emergent cesarean

I suppose maybe they thought that because the epidural was still in, I was under anesthesia (it had been turned down to half strength for the pushing stage), but you'd think the fact that I'd been screaming bloody murder for three hours would have clued them in to the fact that half strength was not enough for me! And mine was anything but an emergency, it was a failure to progress and we had time to sit around and sign consent forms, wait for the anesthesiologist to come back, etc.

I *can* insist that they wait for the anesthesia before the catheter for my planned section, though, right? I am not a pushy person and I don't like to speak up to doctors, but I really don't want to go through that again.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I *can* insist that they wait for the anesthesia before the catheter for my planned section, though, right? I am not a pushy person and I don't like to speak up to doctors, but I really don't want to go through that again.

Yes, of course. And feel free to truly insist. The few seconds saved by putting it in prior to an adequate block being acheived are just not worth any extra anxiety and pain for you. However, it may not be as painful anyway if you haven't been laboring/pushing with the resulting local tissue swelling and being more sensitive from having the local nerve endings firing to begin with. Usually, placing a catheter is more of a discomfort than terribly painful when one is in a non-emergent situation. Of course, YMMV!


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## dflanag2 (Oct 4, 2005)

I am loving reading this thoughtful thread!

I think that our society has 'lost' access to natural birth because of capitalism. Our economy is based on consumption and growth. It is beneficial to our economy to make people believe that they are somehow inadequate, unsafe, entitled, etc. to convince the person that they NEED whatever is being offered for sale; thus sales increase. The capitalist society benefits by perpetuating the myth that all females are helpless victims of the horrible and uncontrollable childbirth process and need to be saved/fixed/observed in order to avoid horrific consequences. Medical interventions are thought of as making childbirth safer even though they don't (excluding childbirth complications of course, when intervention makes sense) and before you know it, alarmed women are lining up at the hospital door for their epidurals and scheduled c-sections to avoid the unknown *potential* pain of natural childbirth. In our culture people seem to be very uncomfortable with the unknown and prefer to control as many factors as possible.

Speaking of the unknown, I wanted to observe that a woman wouldn't know whether childbirth was painful for her unless she went through it herself. I respect your choice to avoid the pain of childbirth by not risking it, SundayInSeptember, but I want bring up the idea that perhaps your experience wouldn't have been painful.

-dflanag2
mother to ds (28 mos) and DD (4 mos) a surprise UC


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dflanag2* 
Speaking of the unknown, I wanted to observe that a woman wouldn't know whether childbirth was painful for her unless she went through it herself.

wow--this is really profound, and I had never ever thought about this!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:

I do feel that just as women experience labor differently (and after attending hundreds of women, I firmly believe that labor feels differently and is in fact different for different women) women's emotional response to their births is different, too.
This is a great point and I meant to mention it in my post. Thanks doctorjen for sharing your insights and experience.

Julia
dd 9mos


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

Thank you for your kind input, dflanag2.

Yes, it is possible that my childbirth experience wouldn't have been painful; it's always possible I would have been one of the few who really have a painfree experience. I felt the odds of that occurring were so low that the risk was far too great to assume. Better to not suffer the physical and emotional damage of a traumatic birth, especially when the risk is PTSD and PPD. For me, it did not feel like a control issue, but rather an issue of unendurable pain.

Personally, I've never met anyone who had anything close to a painfree birth, although I am certain these cases exist. If anything, the birth stories have been too awful to contemplate. I realize that sometimes people exaggerate, but birth always sounds like torture to me.

But your point is well taken and well thought out.


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## dukeswalker (Feb 1, 2003)

OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

I have to tell you - after birthing my last 9lb dd via VBAC - I found it the least painful of them all (vs- a csec and an induced VBAC). Was it the hardest? Yes! Was it the most demanding? Yes! Was it the most strenuous, difficult, exhausting, emotional, draining, consuming thing I've EVER experienced? Yes!
*But it was NOT the most painful* -
I've slammed my toe (broke it) and hopped around for 10-15 minutes crying because it hurt sooooo bad - but that is not the same way I would describe labor. It's not the same "pain"...does that make sense?? (I honestly think we need a new word to describe the feeling of childbirth - its unlike anything you can ever experience. Probably along the same lines as trying to describe an orgasm. There isn't really the "right" word to describe it)


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dukeswalker* 
OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

I probably covered this one already, but in my case, YES. It felt like someone was slowly sawing my spinal cord in half. I once fell downstairs and probably broke my ankle (never got it checked out ....) and just lay on the floor screaming for several minutes. That was less painful than a single contraction.

I guess that's why they say back labor is so much worse.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

It was excruciating while I was at home. It was 100x worse than getting the tattoo on my ankle. I was begging for a chainsaw so I could cut the baby out of me.
But, once I got to the birth center and was told I was far enough along to stay (6cm at that point), I was fine. I meditated through the pain, and it wasn't so bad at all. So, I strongly believe that the pain I experienced wouldn't have happened if I had already been where I was planning to birth, so I could give myself "permission" to labor in the ways that were best for me. My fear, my tension, my inability to even consider breathing through the contractions or meditating or doing the hypnobirthing thing or getting in the water or moving around instead of laying in my bed screaming - those created the pain. I am convinced of that. And that's one of the reasons that I'm having a homebirth this time. I don't want to wait until I hit that magic dilation number before I labor in the ways that feel best for me.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dukeswalker* 
OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

It felt like a giant had a side of my pelvis in each hand and was twisting. I have never felt such incredible agony in my life, not a broken bone, nor a dying tooth, or a bleeding ovary. It was incredibly, mindblowingly painful.


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## redhotmama (Nov 7, 2005)

When I was pregnant, dh and I talked about it and I compared it to someone "helping" you poop. Imagine you see a doctor to make sure you're pooping correctly. He says, "Let's do some tests and make sure everything's ok in there." So you get an anal exam, which is uncomfortable and intrusive, but just to make sure everything is ok (which it is). Then the doctor recommends a u/s, just to make sure the poop isn't too big to come out. So you get the u/s, and your doctor says, "Wow, that's a pretty big poop! You'd better let me know when you feel the need to go so we can make sure this turns out ok." Well, you're worried now - you never had trouble with pooping before, but heck. This one's BIG! So you go to the hospital when you feel like you might need to poop (but before you really have the urge) and people keep sticking their fingers up your butt to tell you whether or not you're ready to poop.

Ok, so that's kind of silly (I could continue the analogy but I'll stop there, lol - "Quick, he needs an episiotomy! Get the forceps!"







), and there is definitely more risk associated with childbirth than with pooping, but I do think it's a valuable analogy because it reminds us (as if we needed it) that birth IS a natural process the body is designed for, and if left unhindered and comfortable, will probably go much more smoothly than if interefered with. After talking with dh about it, he agreed that it would be pretty much impossible for him to poop with various people inspecting him and telling him what his progress was.








:

Having just had a beautiful hands-off, no vag exams birth, I LOVE this analogy! I LOVE this thread! I love all of you! (I have great hormones







: )


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

When I was pregnant, dh and I talked about it and I compared it to someone "helping" you poop. Imagine you see a doctor to make sure you're pooping correctly. He says, "Let's do some tests and make sure everything's ok in there." So you get an anal exam, which is uncomfortable and intrusive, but just to make sure everything is ok (which it is). Then the doctor recommends a u/s, just to make sure the poop isn't too big to come out. So you get the u/s, and your doctor says, "Wow, that's a pretty big poop! You'd better let me know when you feel the need to go so we can make sure this turns out ok." Well, you're worried now - you never had trouble with pooping before, but heck. This one's BIG! So you go to the hospital when you feel like you might need to poop (but before you really have the urge) and people keep sticking their fingers up your butt to tell you whether or not you're ready to poop.

Ok, so that's kind of silly (I could continue the analogy but I'll stop there, lol - "Quick, he needs an episiotomy! Get the forceps!"







), and there is definitely more risk associated with childbirth than with pooping, but I do think it's a valuable analogy because it reminds us (as if we needed it) that birth IS a natural process the body is designed for, and if left unhindered and comfortable, will probably go much more smoothly than if interefered with.
Ok, I admit. I laughed. It does sound silly. But it really is a good analogy. There are conditions that make pooping dangerous. Or lack of poop. A blood clot can cause constipation, its a serious condition that you need medical assitamce with. Sure most people don't have this but it does happen. Just like most women don't need help with childbirth but there are some that do. Or like my grandfather who nearly died from internal hemmoroids. Rare yes, again just like its rare to find a woman with true CPD. But it happens. It shouldn't be taken as the norm. But I love this analogy. I think Ina May used something similar didn't she?


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dukeswalker* 
OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

Yes, I found labor painful, though I think this was mainly due to the combination of the labor and the debilitating sciatica I was experiencing at the same time.

Even in combination, those things were not the most painful thing I've ever experienced. The most painful thing I've ever experienced was the time I threw out my back about 12 years ago. During that, it took me an hour to crawl about 15 yards to the toilet. Labor was not only less painful, but also had the advantage of not being a continuous pain.


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dukeswalker* 
OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

With my first there was pain. He was posterior with his hand up & I don't think the hypnosis I did for it was very effective - HypnoBirthing. That said, it was about 1 1/2 - 2 hours of mindblowing pain. I felt like my back and hips were being pulled apart. Each ctx on top of each other was a fight to get through. I kept thinking drugs would be nice if it made the pain stop, yet I was so much in birth land, I didn't want to leave my homebirth. I thought it would be too much effort.

With my second I did a different hypnosis program - Imagery Birthing. I like it the best with HypnoBabies as a 2nd choice. I really did not feel pain. I felt intensity & exhuastion during her middle of the night birth, but not pain. I laughed as she was crowing. It was beautiful.

With my third, it was a fast furious birth. I again did Imagery Birthing from about 22 weeks, practicing daily. 1 hour and 40 minutes from my water breaking to me holding her in my arms. It was just as intense as my other births, just condensed into a shorter amount of time. If anything looking back, I was more confused than in pain. I wasn't sure of where my bearings were. I didn't quite know what to do with myself. I was glad my partner knew me so well, I really would have done whatver he suggested at that point. Glad he suggested cuddling in bed with him rather than swinging from the chandelier though!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:

OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?
I am sure not "all" found it painful, but for those that have said they did, they mean . . . YES. I was surprised, too, at how horrifically painful it was. I had a properly positioned, 8 lb baby. But shortly after about 30 min of transition I said "I don't want to do this anymore." As that continued, it became more and more difficult to bear. It continued for over 7 hours, with ctx about 2 min apart and lasting about 60 sec. I'm not sure, because I wasn't paying attention except while we were in the car. Nothing much changed, in pain or intensity, during those 7+hours. They were all agonizingly painful. And I relaxed, and breathed, and waited through them until I couldn't wait anymore (and then I transferred to the hospital, found out I was ready to push, and had dd 25 min later). Pushing was also horrifically painful. Agony is the word I most often use to describe the pain. In addition to that, it just felt . . . HORRIBLE. My back, belly, uterus, and pelvic floor were all in horrendous pain during each contraction.

So, yes, I really did find it "painful" from transition on forward. Before that, while there was pain with a contraction, mostly it just felt like deep penetration during sex. That part was very manageable and just fine. I would even say I liked it.









Julia
dd 9mos


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## dukeswalker (Feb 1, 2003)

Wow...I have to totally, honeslty say how surprised I am....really!







EVen with my face up - coming with her hand covering her face out baby - I still never really thought of it as painful. My induced VBAC - He** YES! That was PAIN! Felt like I was being gutted, literally. I had an epidural by 4 cm. With my last - I didn't even go to the hospital until I was about 8 cm - As long as I stayed off of my back (hands and knees or side postion for me, thank you very much) I wouldn't decribe it as painful. Granted there WAS a moment after getting to the hospital, that I looked into dh eyes and said "I can't do this!" DH and my MW looked at me and said "You ARE doing it - and you're doing great..." But still - not painful.

The stiches afterward???? PAINFUL!


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

In my first birth, I thought was actually dying, and I welcomed it.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I don't understand how anyone can feel safe while they're experiencing pain that makes them want to shoot themselves. Maybe we have different definitions of safe. In my case, I didn't CARE that I was loved or supported. I'd rather have been unloved and in less pain if I'd had a choice.

I think that before I'd given birth I would have said the same thing. Even now, thinking about it, it makes sense, shouldn't I just be able to shrug off the negativity and it would be lovely as long as it wasn't excruciatingly painful. But it wasn't like that. All I can think is that I was so emotionally vulnerable and open -- not like I am normally -- that the negativity was able to wound me in a way that the physical pain could not. All four of my births were similarly painful. But it was only the first for me -- in which I felt attacked and desperate and scared and unsupported -- that was traumatic.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
For those of you who believe that childbirth is essentially an instinctive process for which conscious thought on the part of the mother is counter-productive:

Given that, before the advent of modern medicine, women and babies used to die in childbirth in much larger numbers than they do today, is it your contention that while the mother should avoid thinking during childbirth, it is the job of her birth attendants to do the thinking for her? For example, by identifying situations in which some assistance may be required?

Before the advent of modern medicine, there was also a "before the advent of widespread nutrition and sanitation." The death rates would have gone way down without obstetrics involving itself with the majority of births, and I believe that if we were to stop routinely managing births they would go down even farther, and complication rates would go WAY down.

So no, it's not my contention that birth in general needs somebody to think about it in order to happen optimally.

Quote:

If it were possible for the mother to take drugs which would disassociate her conscious mind from awareness of her body altogether, do you think that would lead to better birth outcomes?
By "conscious mind" I assume you mean neocortex, since there are different kinds of consciousness. _If_ those drugs had no other effects, yes, it would be lead to better birth outcomes. Absolutely.


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## dflanag2 (Oct 4, 2005)

Birth 1: Birth center attended by midwives: Contractions felt like large menstrual cramps, it was very intense and you couldn't think about much else, but quite tolerabe. Intense like riding a really good roller coaster. The pushing part was extremely hard work (I'm small and had to stretch around my 10 lb ds w/14.5 inch head but it was painless because I was just numb after awhile (I pushed for 2.5 hours) I didn/t feel Ring of Fire or when I tore or anything, in fact I had the MW put her fingers where I needed to push towards so I would have a target. There were other discomforts, like feeling like I was going to throw up (didn't want to--I was too busy trying to get the baby OUT) and being completely exhausted.

On the other hand, like dukeswalker said, the stitching afterwards was extremely painful even with local anisthetic. My muscles ached (arms, legs, back) for days afterwards. For four hours afterwards I was thinking to myself, I'm never doing THIS again... but the that oxytocin kicked in and stained all my birth recollections in a more positive light... hey, that wasn't so bad!

Second baby was a homebirth and dd beat the midwives by 5 min or so... again heavy menstrual cramps and INTENSE--I felt like I was running a marathon, working up a good sweat, hitting a good pace. Transition felt like my body was a lawnmower or motorcycle, vibrating growling shaking... for a few minutes I was thinking that I was going to run out of steam, it was so intense. Then when I realized it was time to push (hooray!) it felt great--like a really big satisfying poop, as a matter of fact! The only discomfort was the burning of Ring of Fire and dh gave me a perineal compress which felt awesome. DD was born in 3 pushes, no tearing or anything, and SHE was bigger than her brother! Her labor was 2.5 hours total.

Observation: I think one factor in the pain question is whether you are in good physical shape (along with obvious factors such as baby's position, etc.) I did Jazzercise when pregnant with both up to a couple days before she was born--low impact of course-- and I think that had a lot to do with the ease of birth and the mother's perception of pain... since pregnant women in our culture are advised to 'take it easy' and Americans are pretty sedentary in general I think that contributes to pain in childbirth along with fear, ignorance, intervention, etc. I say get out there and work up a sweat! Walk, swim, ride bikes, yoga, aerobics, the muscle tone will come in handy, as well as the cardiovascular benefits that will supply more oxygen to you and your baby.

-dflanag2


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## Harmony96 (Jun 3, 2005)

Did I find it painful? Yes, but like a PP said, it's a different kind of pain. It's a productive pain that is working towards an end, instead of a pain where your body says to you "hey you did something wrong". Before birth, the worst "female" pain I'd had was menstrual cramps, but even then I knew that labor would be different. The menstrual cramps just came and stayed. Labor pains started out with the intensity of menstrual cramps, but they came and went and came and went. I found it helpful to just keep remembering that the individual labor pains as well as labor overall would not last forever.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
Rocket science? Maybe not. Worst pain I've ever experienced in my life? Yes. First experience I've ever had that made me wish I were dead? Yes. There's no possibility of feeling safe and secure when you're in that kind of pain. There's nothing nice or sexy about it. I had the hot tub, dim lights, CDs of my favorite soothing music, a good birth plan drawn up. When the time came, I realized that I couldn't care less about the lighting or the music or any of the rest of it. Poked and prodded? Sure, whatever. I didn't care what anyone did. Nothing mattered to me anymore. I'd have taken heroin if you'd offered it to me then. Anything to stop the pain.

Simple process, maybe, but it sure as hell isn't easy.









I am truly sorry about your experience.
















: for healing


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

On pooping...my friend recently had a baby and was telling me about it. This is what she said:

"What they don't tell you about is the pressure. Evie, remember when you were constipated in college and had to have an enema because you were bursting blood vessels in your face; I kept thinking of that."

It made me laugh to think she had flashbacks to MY constipation experience.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I don't mean to take away from this thread's original message, but I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts. I get depressed when I see so many threads saying things like "labor is easy and natural!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" because reading that kind of thing over and over left me unprepared for what I actually experienced.

























Mama, my labors were easy, but I GET you 100%. How? For me, BFing, especially my 2nd DD, seemed anything but easy and natural. I had BF my 1st for over 2 years-- I was experienced. But my 2nd refused to nurse longer than a minute, suffered from no weight gain, and I had a very difficult time with it all. It was like a nightmare. 3 lactation consultants, about $1000 later (IBLC fees, supplies, etc.), and countless hours of research, she learned to nurse. That didn't exactly feel "natural and easy" to me.

Let me tell you, that experience left me with a whole new outlook about everything-- to not be so flip about so-called "natural" things. Nature does NOT work perfectly. It does in the larger sense (survival of the fittest) but that doesn't mean it works perfectly for us as individuals. As per the OP's example, some people actually DO have issues with sex and pooping. Does that make them inferior?

I think it is very, very dangerous to look at any issue in black and white terms. While many people into NP and AP are horrified when judged by the "mainstream," some of them feel it is OK to judge others. I don't get it.









Re: did I find it painful? At a certain point, yes, I wanted to die. Thankfully, that was a brief period for me, right before I had to push. I experienced gallbladder attacks that were just the same, though (so, men CAN feel what it is like to be in labor if they have them!) and I didn't have any pain medication . . .so I figured if I could do it without getting a baby at the end, it would be OK.


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## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pookel*
I don't mean to take away from this thread's original message, but I would like to see more support and validation in the natural birthing community for women whose labors are excruciatingly painful and difficult despite their preparation and best efforts. I get depressed when I see so many threads saying things like "labor is easy and natural!" and "it doesn't hurt that much!" because reading that kind of thing over and over left me unprepared for what I actually experienced.
During labor, I vowed to myself that I'd never think any less of a woman who chose an epidural, 'cause boy was that pain a nightmare. I even started thinking to myself "this is why women do non-medical planned c-sections!"

However, after all was said and done fortunately the pain became a blurred memory while the excitement of it all stayed. That's why I find myself glossing over the pain when discussing my birth with others. My dh had to correct me one time when I was telling my sister about it and I said, "Yeah, it wasn't that bad..." It was like I had forgot that part of it and only remembered the positives. It makes me wonder if many of those "it doesn't hurt that much" posts are actually of the same nature.


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## dukeswalker (Feb 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
It makes me wonder if many of those "it doesn't hurt that much" posts are actually of the same nature.


nak

For me? No way - I remeber my induced VBAC - hurt more than anything I had ever experienced....My natural 2nd VBAC was nothing like that.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velveeta* 
I agree, but I think that different "signposts" would be more helpful. For example, when DS was born, my mother was attending me. She didn't do cervical checks, but because she understood how birth works, she said things that made me know I was "progressing" like, "Baby can only come out further now -- there is only one way out!" "Baby is almost here!" I would say, "I can't do it." She would say, "But, you *are* doing it." I am sure that I felt reassured and perfect (in the process) because she is my mother and I trust her completely.

I just want to say how sweet this sounds.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *dukeswalker* 
OK - So add this one to the bunch...Did you all really find it "painful"?

I have found my births painful, but not so painful that I was going out of my mind, iykwim. As long as I could move around, it was manageable. I labour at night, and it gets difficult near the end when I am more tired and need more to move around to help with the pain. But I've had headaches that were more painful than labour, and I don't even get migraines. But the problem is that there isn't much that I can do to help those headaches, save for big doses of tylenol and going to sleep. Pacing, squatting, hot showers, etc. don't really help.

I think us natural, birth-doesn't-have-to-be-so-painful types come on strong because we hear *all the time* IRL how painful birth *always* is, no exceptions. I think it's easy to forget that there are also exceptions to the idea that, if you have a better birth environment, the pain will be more likely to be manageable.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dflanag2* 
Observation: I think one factor in the pain question is whether you are in good physical shape (along with obvious factors such as baby's position, etc.) I did Jazzercise when pregnant with both up to a couple days before she was born--low impact of course-- and I think that had a lot to do with the ease of birth and the mother's perception of pain... since pregnant women in our culture are advised to 'take it easy' and Americans are pretty sedentary in general I think that contributes to pain in childbirth along with fear, ignorance, intervention, etc. I say get out there and work up a sweat! Walk, swim, ride bikes, yoga, aerobics, the muscle tone will come in handy, as well as the cardiovascular benefits that will supply more oxygen to you and your baby.

-dflanag2

Yep I really disagree. I was in fabulous shape with my first two and i still had pain during labor.

For the pain questions absolutely I had pain. Was it because both were posterior? Quite possibly so but it was painful and I was at home and relaxing and breathing and thinking that I could do it and not being hampered by anyone else's perceptions and it was painful. And pushing wow the pushing was waaaay worse than I expected because everyone else talked about how good pushing felt. I did not feel that way. It felt bad and painful and burning. Now what felt totally totally awesome was the feeling when their bodies slipped out of me. Wow what incredible fantastic relief and the huge burst of endorphins and the high of knowing I did it yeah that was all great but I was ready, I was prepared, I trusted my body and it still hurt like hell and I absolutely would do it again. It was pain but it was worthwhile pain. It was bearable pain.

I don't really agree with the entire it's not rocket science, it's like sex or pooping. It's just not like that for me. Birth is a big thing. Sex and pooping are not. Sex feels good and for me birthing does not (until afterwards) and it is not something that needs to be private in the sense of only me or only DH. And pooping yeah just not at all the same. It may not be rocket science but I just can't agree that it's this wonderful orgasmic experience if you just open yourself up the right way so I have to say that I do agree with PPs who objected that it can make it seem that the implication is that those of us who gave birth without meds or interventions but did feel pain somehow did something wrong. It's like where does it end? If I didn't do it in a hut on a plain by myself then it's painful but if I would just do it there somehow it wouldn't be? I just doubt that somehow.


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## dukeswalker (Feb 1, 2003)

What I find really interestying is that, in general, most other cultures do not describe child birth as painful....


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