# how old is too old for girls to go shirtless?



## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

we went with our friends to the park today (in Houston) and the kids were running around in the fountain play area. It was spur of the moment, so I didn't pack a swimsuit. Milena played for a few minutes in her skirt, while her friend Hudson wore his pants. Then Hudson's dad remembered he had suits in the car, and gave them both a pair of board shorts to wear. We were laughing about our little "hippie boy" because you could not tell our DD was a girl at all with her wearing boy shorts and no top. Then our other friends joined us and their daughter is 4. We gave her DD's skirt (already wet) to wear and she joined them to play in the water.

About 25 minutes into the play, a woman who worked at the park came up to us and asked if "the little girl in the skirt" was our daughter. We said "yes" and then she told us that they had a rule that all little girls needed to wear shirts.

Is it just me, or is that SUPER lame?? Like I said before, we didn't get hassled about our DD because she looked like a little hippy boy with long hair and boardshorts on. Which pretty much makes my point. That there is nothing these CHILDREN need to be covering up top anyhow. You can't even tell the difference between them if you put them in "boy" clothes.

Do 3 and 4 yr old girls really need to wear shirts at the water park?? Or am I expecting too much in thinking that kids are kids? Maybe I'm being too liberal here....esp. in prude texas.

We just put a shirt on her, but part of me regrets not saying anything. Or at least asking to see some sort of written policy. Am I being too extreme?

XOXO
B


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Sad







I'm right there with you.

I'd love to know what park....

-Angela


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

Im from austin but in public no I wouldnt let my kids go shirtless or bottom less (im seen totally naked babies playing in water before) because there are *those* people out there and its not like they have a tatooed forhead or anything. Not to be paranoid, but I just dont want to put my child out there or by making them the attention of a pervert. but then again your kid can be dressed head to toe with snow gear and they still might be the attention of someone.Its sad that kids cant be just kids anymore because of scum out there.


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

You never know what's going to catch the attention of a pervert. A certain hair color, build, tom-boyish or girly-girl looks, bobby socks or pig tails... I refuse to live my life with "those people" constantly on my mind. I keep my kids close, my doors locked, and my eyes peeled but I'm not going to cooperate with the sexualization of my small children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
Im from austin but in public no I wouldnt let my kids go shirtless or bottom less (im seen totally naked babies playing in water before) because there are *those* people out there and its not like they have a tatooed forhead or anything. Not to be paranoid, but I just dont want to put my child out there or by making them the attention of a pervert. but then again your kid can be dressed head to toe with snow gear and they still might be the attention of someone.Its sad that kids cant be just kids anymore because of scum out there.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
We said "yes" and then she told us that they had a rule that all little girls needed to wear shirts.

I'd like to see the rule. Was it posted somewhere?

Aside from that, I think 5 or 6 y.o. would probably be maximum for us in public.


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## missbuns (Oct 16, 2007)

sad and strange.

today we went to the public pool (in europe) and there were girls with only bottoms on who were 7-8.

i think the tops need to come on when girls start developing? so between 8-11. dunno, but 4 years old is really pushing it.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

IDK, but certainly I wouldn't worry about it till they were at least 7 or 8. I'm pretty positive I went topless till I was 10ish at beaches and whatnot. I had short hair and LOOKED like a boy - to the point of constantly being told 'this is the GIRLS bathroom'. So yeah. And, umm.. yeah, my DS went nekkid at the beach last year on occasion. He was 1.5ish at the time. Are you seriously going to tell me, that I should worry about him at 1.5 because there "might" be a pervert watching??? Seriously??? When I'm standing right there beside him as he splashes in the waves????


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think at about 6 most girls will want to cover up due to social pressures. But IMO, until they start showing breast buds, it's OK to go shirtless. (The Europeans are much more calm than we are naked/semi-naked kids, and the couple years I've lived there have rubbed off on me.)

Dh started to get a little uncomfortable when dd went outside shirtless when she was 4. I was pretty adamant with him that at 4, she's not got anything to show, and her only truly private parts are covered by her shorts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
Im from austin but in public no I wouldnt let my kids go shirtless or bottom less (im seen totally naked babies playing in water before) because there are *those* people out there and its not like they have a tatooed forhead or anything. Not to be paranoid, but I just dont want to put my child out there or by making them the attention of a pervert. but then again your kid can be dressed head to toe with snow gear and they still might be the attention of someone.Its sad that kids cant be just kids anymore because of scum out there.









This is one of those fears that I think are strongly overrated. How many children do you personally know who have been assaulted/taken advantage of by a stranger? There are a FEW, but the people you need to worry about are the people you trust your kids with - the piano teacher with the wandering hands, your BIL, your neighbor's teenager, etc.

I actually think that by taking 'extreme' precautions, and never allowing our children's bodies to be just that, bodies, we're (a) raising everyone's anxiety and (b) making the human body so taboo that a 4 year old without her shirt on DOES become sensational. If there's a pervert, he is not going to need to see kids without shirts on to get his jollies.

I feel strongly that I will let my kids be kids. I let my 4 year old walk down the block to the neighbors and play. My kids are free to play outside on our block without my being outside all the time (I check, but I don't hover.)


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

4???!!! They were freaking out about a 4 year old being topless?

I would have been livid.

My kid can be topless in public as long as her comfort and the law will allow it. I think I remember reading that kids can be naked in public/exempt from whatever laws require adults to cover up until they're 10.

I definitely would have asked to see a written policy and would have complained above the woman's head if need be. There's no reason to make a little kid cover up if she's comfortable.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

In BC here, it's really up to the child/parent. Law says women can go topless if they choose. That means young girls too. I never understood, especially with young girls who really _are_ no different when it comes to their chest then boys.

It's a shame that the human body has become so unpleasant that people get uncomfortable with nudity.









A 4 yo shouldn't be forced to deal with adult hangups.


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Ugh - how obnoxious!!!







I totally would have asked (through laughter) to see that policy.

I vividly remember being told this same kind of thing as a child. I was running around, probably six or seven, without a shirt on, and some adult (not my mom) told me it wasn't good for little girls to be without shirts. I was so mortified and totally didn't understand what the issue was - but I began, right then, to worry about my body. Right. that. minute. We really don't need any more reasons in this culture to feel weird about our bodies.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

This is one of those fears that I think are strongly overrated. How many children do you personally know who have been assaulted/taken advantage of by a stranger? There are a FEW, but the people you need to worry about are the people you trust your kids with - the piano teacher with the wandering hands, your BIL, your neighbor's teenager, etc.

I actually think that by taking 'extreme' precautions, and never allowing our children's bodies to be just that, bodies, we're (a) raising everyone's anxiety and (b) making the human body so taboo that a 4 year old without her shirt on DOES become sensational. If there's a pervert, he is not going to need to see kids without shirts on to get his jollies.

I feel strongly that I will let my kids be kids. I let my 4 year old walk down the block to the neighbors and play. My kids are free to play outside on our block without my being outside all the time (I check, but I don't hover.)

and







:


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I'd love to know what park....


Discovery Green.

I was the only female parent there. It was me and DH and the two other dads. They all figured it was probably a rule and it wasn't worth pushing. But I kind of wondered if that lady wasn't just uptight and saying that was a "rule" when it was her own idea. The guys figured it probably WAS a rule because Texas is lame like that. They figured it was easier just to put a shirt on her than fight it.

I really wish I had said something now. But I was so stunned by it, that the moment passed. I'm sure some of you guys have BTDT. argh. If only I had advance notice to come up with a retort. People just shock the hell out of me with that kind of stuff. I was totally a deer in headlights









XOXO
B


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

Here I believe it is legal for a girl/woman of any age to be topless.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vancouver Mommy* 
Here I believe it is legal for a girl/woman of any age to be topless.

Here too (Ontario).


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I can't believe they were complaining about 3 and 4y old going without a shirt. I'm totally comfortable with that, and would have no problem with my DD1 at 6 now running around without a shirt on. I'm sorry this happened to you.







:


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i would write the park & ask to see policy & look up laws.

i would refuse to let my almost 4 year old be led to believe there was anything specific to being female that needs to be covered up. genitalia- ok, fine.. but a shirt? to cover???? what? kwim?

no way.

texas or not.

my dd is topless often at the park bc the boys are & she wants to be


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Um, just doing some looking up and apperently it's legal for women to go topfree in Texas... You might want to write the park and let them know about the incident and that you aren't happy with the employee who effectively took away you/your dd's right to choose about her own body.

P.S. BC, Manitoba and Ontario all allow women to go topless too.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
Discovery Green.

I was the only female parent there. It was me and DH and the two other dads. They all figured it was probably a rule and it wasn't worth pushing. But I kind of wondered if that lady wasn't just uptight and saying that was a "rule" when it was her own idea. The guys figured it probably WAS a rule because Texas is lame like that. They figured it was easier just to put a shirt on her than fight it.

I really wish I had said something now. But I was so stunned by it, that the moment passed. I'm sure some of you guys have BTDT. argh. If only I had advance notice to come up with a retort. People just shock the hell out of me with that kind of stuff. I was totally a deer in headlights









XOXO
B

I was wondering if that's where it was... wonder if it was the same uptight lady who was telling moms not to nurse...

-Angela


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

I was about to post about girls at the public beach going topless, but then I couldn't think of an age limit. The kids are nude or bottoms only or bathing suit - whatever, but then again, so are the adults. Seems only the teenagers, as a group, are "fully" clothed.

Op - 3 & 4 yo - just CRAZY!


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## crazycandigirl (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, just doing some looking up and apperently it's legal for women to go topfree in Texas...









:

http://michaelbluejay.com/nudity/
This link is about Austin TX but it explains that it is not against the law for woman to be topless anywhere in Texas. Now if the park actually has a written rule about it, or a policeman tells you to put on a top, then you have to cover up.

Of course with little ones I think it is ridiculous. They are children and if it is silly in impress such restrictions on them. Next they will be saying that you can not change a diaper if there is a chance that someone could see an "indecent" child. Sigh. I am personally ok with my DD's being topless on occasion until they are around 6 or so.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Three and four is too young to worry about.

By about age six, I was more concerned that it would make someone else uncomfortable or someone would say something to her.

But, we lived part of the year in Hawaii, and the kids go shirtless without any thought til about nine or ten and the girls just start to wear tops because they want to. So, it might be regional too. Some places are just a little more relaxed than other.

On the other hand, I was at a community pool with my friend's family and there was a man there who seemed overly interested in the little girls. (about age three or four-ish) Several parents noticed it, then went on a hunt for his own children.. only to find out, he just "enjoys watching the kids have fun". He had a camera with him, and when a Dad took it away from him to see what was on the camera, he had several of the smaller kids, and several of small girls getting dressed after swimming. (they took his memory card)

So, some people are just too weird to be trusted, and you can't really tell who's looking at your children.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

So you need to go back and whip off your top when the woman complains about the topless 4 yo!


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazycandigirl* 







:

http://michaelbluejay.com/nudity/
This link is about Austin TX but it explains that it is not against the law for woman to be topless anywhere in Texas. Now if the park actually has a written rule about it, or a policeman tells you to put on a top, then you have to cover up.

WHAT? Police have the power to overrule a law!?!?


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
he had several of the smaller kids, and several of small girls getting dressed after swimming. (they took his memory card)

So, some people are just too weird to be trusted, and you can't really tell who's looking at your children.

Yuck.

BUT - that really is the exception. And, it really wouldn't matter what stage of dress or undress, I'm guessing, the kids were in. A perv's a perv no matter what. And I'm not going to live in fear of that. My daughter's much more likely to be injured in a car accident than in a case of sexual assault. I'm not going to stop driving just because that's the case . . . .


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Three and four is too young to worry about.

By about age six, I was more concerned that it would make someone else uncomfortable or someone would say something to her.

But, we lived part of the year in Hawaii, and the kids go shirtless without any thought til about nine or ten and the girls just start to wear tops because they want to. So, it might be regional too. Some places are just a little more relaxed than other.

On the other hand, I was at a community pool with my friend's family and there was a man there who seemed overly interested in the little girls. (about age three or four-ish) Several parents noticed it, then went on a hunt for his own children.. only to find out, he just "enjoys watching the kids have fun". He had a camera with him, and when a Dad took it away from him to see what was on the camera, he had several of the smaller kids, and several of small girls getting dressed after swimming. (they took his memory card)

So, some people are just too weird to be trusted, and you can't really tell who's looking at your children.

This happened at a few local swim meets here in my county. Same guy kept showing up to film the girls, finally someone realized he didn't have a child, and his camera was taken.

These girls were all wearing swimsuits; they didn't need to be topless. There are plenty of creeps sitting on benches in the mall, too, checking out the teen girls in skimpy tops and low slung jeans with their thongs popping out, and little boys and girls dressed head to toe for winter. They're going to be titillated by children because it's their pathology, not because of what the kids are wearing. Remember that a century ago, LO's would have been scampering across the beach in wool body suits, and these nylon dealios we wear today would have been beyond obscene. The more we cover our flesh the more sexual power we give it.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm with you, OP!

Maybe the people uncomfortable with it have issues of their own to work out.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I personally would never let a child of either gender run around outside shirtless, or even in a sleeveless shirt. If it's warm enough to go without sleeves, then I'm worried about sunburn. My kids have always worn t-shirts in any weather (and bathing suits have always included rash guards.) The occasional sleeveless shirt we recieve as a hand-me-down become pajama tops.

But from a modesty perspective, I'd say "let the girl go shirtless until *she's* no longer comfortable doing so."

The whole "child molester might see my kid in skimpy clothes" is BS. Child molesters will be attracted to children no matter how much, or how little, they wear, and whether they're wearing "hooker clothes" or "classic innocent children's styles."


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I've never let my dd go topless in public. She hasn't asked either.

I'm guessing it is not really a rule but the woman's own opinion since she only noticed/cared because there was a skirt on the one child. Put your girl in shorts and it's okay I guess.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I think at about 6 most girls will want to cover up due to social pressures. But IMO, until they start showing breast buds, it's OK to go shirtless. (The Europeans are much more calm than we are naked/semi-naked kids, and the couple years I've lived there have rubbed off on me.)

I agree. This is a very cultural thing, and I'm generally inclined let the child decide when they feel it's necessary to cover themselves. Although, our girls are typically covered on the top because I prefer not having to slather them in sunscreen.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I was comfortable with my dd playing outside in just panties up until the end of last summer - she was 5.5 years old.

I fully accept that it was my own hang up around nudity that influenced my decision to get her to wear a suit or t-shirt.

Having said that, this was only when others were around. If it's just family, I don't care if she's naked.

ETA - I'm in Ontario, and it's legal for women to be topless here.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I would let a hypotetical girl under about 6 or 7 yo go topless anytime I was comfortable letting my DS go topless (assuming she has the same unlikely to burn complexsion that DS gets from DH's side of the family and doesn't end up with the "burns on a cloudy day in february" complexsion from my side.) Around 6 yo I would start to be slightly more concious of it, but I wouldn't make a fuss about it in the situation you describe either.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Quote:

Now if the park actually has a written rule about it, or a policeman tells you to put on a top, then you have to cover up.
This makes *no* sense to me. If its the law that women can go topless, then thats the law. Now, a park can have a rule saying *EVERYONE* must cover, but they can't be specific and outlaw certain people not covering, if it is the LAW that no-one has to cover. And a police officer being able to over-rule a LAW and say that you MUST cover NOW! makes no sense, at *ALL*. Thats like saying if a cop doesn't like inter-racial couples, they can tell them to stop kissing/holding hands. Just cause' their cops. Stupid. Outrageous. Bizzare.

ETA: And just for reference, women can go topless here in Ohio too


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## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

In New York, a girl or woman can be topless anywhere a man can.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

:

wow so in texas women can go topless? wonder how many women know and how many actually do it.

i think its a cultural thing too. we were by this stream with a rope swing. my 6 year old had no swim clothes. so there she jumped in the water with just underwear on. there was another hispanic family across on teh other side. not once was i made to feel self concious.

i think in a private public pool my dd has gone topless at 6 too. no one said anything.

but seriously without buds what does it matter?

in fact i think while bikinis look cute on kids - it also looks sooo odd to me. those skimpy tiny string bikinis for kids.

oh and btw here in California - apparently due to a case ruling in december there is a likelihood women arrested for public nudity - that is topless - might be listed as sex offendors in the megan's law list.







:


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfree...#United_States


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

IMO, when the child is uncomfortable that is when they *need* to start wearing a top.

That said, DD will be 10.5 this summer and I think that for the last two summers (so 9.5 & 8.5) she was always at least minimally covered in public (before then she would go topless rarely, but still change her top in public). Even the people I know who go with pretty modest (but mainstream--- no tank tops, short skirts, ...) standards didn't start worrying about it til more school age (5.5+).


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## crazycandigirl (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
WHAT? Police have the power to overrule a law!?!?

Actually it is because there isn't a law protecting your right to be topless, just no law against it. You would not get in trouble for being topless, you would get in trouble for not obeying an direct order from an officer. I might not be explaining it very well. Feel free to correct my information if I am wrong.

The website I linked says:

"If a police officer tells you to do something, you have to do it, or you're guilty of "Disregarding Order of Officer". (Austin Code of Ordinances, §10-1-2) They can't tell you to do something illegal, like punching your buddy in the face, but if what they tell you to do isn't against the law, then you have to do it. I was arrested for playing the piano in the mall. Playing the piano is not illegal. But the officer told me to stop and I didn't, and that's illegal.

If an officer asks you to put your shirt on, you don't have to do it. If the officer tells you to put your shirt on, then you have to. Not because it's illegal to be shirt-free, but because it's illegal to disobey a police order. If you're uncertain whether an officer is asking you or ordering you, then ask, "Do you intend to arrest me if I don't?" Don't be surprised if they don't answer your question directly. They may ignore it and say something like, "I'm just saying that I'd like you to put on your shirt!" (Yes, I saw this exchange happen.) You can try asking again, and you may get a legitimate answer, but the cop may just arrest you right then because they're tired of dealing with you (or because in their mind they were ordering you when you thought they might be asking). You'll have to decide when the time comes how far you're willing to go to maintain your rights. This kind of activity is not without risk."


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
In BC here, it's really up to the child/parent. Law says women can go topless if they choose. That means young girls too.

A few years ago there was a Gay parade here (in the West Kootenays of BC) and 99% of the women were topless. There was actually a very large crowd gathered on the sides of the streets. There was even a police escort!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I have a friend from Germany who is much more comfortable about her body and her kids' bodies that most of us the US. Her kids have gone topless in splash/swim parks long past the age of babyhood. I admit I did kinda do a double take at first because it's just so not in our culture.

For my own dd, just keeping in mind sexual predators, I would probably tell her to cover up when she starts to develop up top. As an adult woman she is free to do whatever she wants, of course.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
99% of the women were topless. *There was actually a very large crowd gathered on the sides of the streets*. There was even a police escort!

Bahaha.. Can't imagine why.

I don't mind a little nudity. I'm not all that modest, except for the fact that I don't like my own body.

But, I wouldn't want my own child to see that parade....especially if the onlookers were being raunchy. I would enjoy it if I wasn't concerned about something someone did or said.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Bahaha.. Can't imagine why.

I don't mind a little nudity. I'm not all that modest, except for the fact that I don't like my own body.

But, I wouldn't want my own child to see that parade....especially if the onlookers were being raunchy. I would enjoy it if I wasn't concerned about something someone did or said.

Gay pride in Vancouver is always a large crowd. I think it usually around 300,000 people attending. Vancouver is a very proud city!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Gay pride in Vancouver is always a large crowd. I think it usually around 300,000 people attending. Vancouver is a very proud city!

Oh, I was being sarcastic. I meant "Can't imagine why" like "Who wouldn't gather to see naked people in public??". Not, "I seriously don't know why".

I'm rarely completely serious.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I only read the first page. I'm a little surprised that everyone is in agreement.... until me.







I think the line is different for everyone. Some here are saying under ten. I'd bet quite a few people would be uncomfortable with eight or nine year olds topless in public.

For my girls, they always had some kind of top on in public. Bathing suit top or t-shirt or tank or whatever. At one or five or ten - all the same to me.

Boys get to go topless all their lives. We get the miracle of birth. I think we come out way ahead on that one.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I only read the first page. I'm a little surprised that everyone is in agreement.... until me.







I think the line is different for everyone. Some here are saying under ten. I'd bet quite a few people would be uncomfortable with eight or nine year olds topless in public.

For my girls, they always had some kind of top on in public. Bathing suit top or t-shirt or tank or whatever. At one or five or ten - all the same to me.

Boys get to go topless all their lives. We get the miracle of birth. I think we come out way ahead on that one.

Uh, that's a pretty weak exchange there...


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

At a public pool I worked at in Ontario grls over 10 had to wear a top. It was clearly posted on the changeroom doors. So although the law says one thing an individual establishment can have their own rules.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Uh, that's a pretty weak exchange there...

I agree! Lots of women from lots of cultures go topless all of their lives too!


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

http://www.discoverygreen.com/rules

Discovery Green Website - no mention of rules regarding topless little girls







:

I don't think it's right to make girls cover up if they are comfortable being topless

You can find the parks contact info below, I would be contacting them and asking about their policies.

http://www.discoverygreen.com/contact


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
A few years ago there was a Gay parade here (in the West Kootenays of BC) and 99% of the women were topless. There was actually a very large crowd gathered on the sides of the streets. There was even a police escort!

G!d I love living in Canada! I wish our Pride celebrations were bigger where I lived.


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## Ceili (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
IMO, when the child is uncomfortable that is when they *need* to start wearing a top.

From a modesty standpoint, I agree with this. As someone whose family is at high risk for skin cancer, I require a long sleeve rash guard on my ds when he's playing in the water.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

i don't worry about anyone assaulting my little ones as long as i'm close by but i shudder at the thought of some pervert looking at my babies *that way* that said, i don't have girls and i live in ontario, so they could go topless if they wanted to....haha but i know i don't!


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
i don't worry about anyone assaulting my little ones as long as i'm close by but i shudder at the thought of some pervert looking at my babies *that way* that said, i don't have girls and i live in ontario, so they could go topless if they wanted to....haha but i know i don't!

I think the thing is that perverts will be perverts. Honestly, if anything putting DD in a swimsuit or a bikini isn't going to change that. As it stood, she looked like a little hippy boy wearing those board shorts. So I guess I just don't get the predator argument. Since any boy in board shorts was in the same position as DD and you wouldn't be able to even tell.

I just have real concerns about DD feeling weird or different about her body when she's still a child. She has plenty of time to come up with body issues down the road without some idiot making her feel she needs covering up now









XOXO
B


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

I would discourage DD from going topless, but mostly because she's sooo pale, if it's sunny enough for topless than it's sunny enough to fry her to a crisp, and she hates sunscreen. I don't really seen why little kids of either gender should "have" to wear tops for modesty if they're comfortable without, though.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
I just have real concerns about DD feeling weird or different about her body when she's still a child. She has plenty of time to come up with body issues down the road without some idiot making her feel she needs covering up now









But why would it make her feel weird to wear a swimsuit top or shirt? I don't see why it is inherently negative that girls cover up on top and boys don't. Different than what the boys do - yes. But not bad unless we send that message IMO.

The "women in other areas of the world go topless" point has been made. Well, when in Rome and all that. But here - in our culture - females cover up on top. I don't see what is so terrible about it. Boys and girls, men and women - we are different. Little girls could try to pee standing up but it would be awfully messy. Why not just accept that there are some differences.

I agree that there is nothing sexual about a 3 year old without a top on at the water fountain. But even here on the this thread, there are a variety of opinions on what age girls should start covering up. So given that, doesn't it make more sense to just say girls cover up - period?


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## savvybabygrace (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *missbuns* 
sad and strange.

today we went to the public pool (in europe) and there were girls with only bottoms on who were 7-8.

i think the tops need to come on when girls start developing? so between 8-11. dunno, but 4 years old is really pushing it.

I remember being about 8 and visiting FL with my family. At the pool a European family came to swim and the girls (younger than I, but no younger than 4) went topless. We thought it was soooo strange...but that's because we'd been raised in a society that said even small children need to be covered up and not show anything 'indecent'.

Thinking about it now, if I were a mom at a pool and a little girl was topless I'd have no problem with it. Sexualizing children is scary and dangerous.
At the same time it p*sses me off and makes me sick to think that there *are* those people out there looking at naked little children and thinking inappropriate thoughts.

I don't think you were wrong to have your dd topless. At such a young age girl's chests look identical to boys, and no one is making boys cover up. But I can see why some people would have a problem with it. It's beaten into our heads now that the world is filled with scary people who are out to 'get' our children.
Hmm...a lot to think about here. I might have done just exactly as you did.


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## savvybabygrace (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
But even here on the this thread, there are a variety of opinions on what age girls should start covering up. So given that, doesn't it make more sense to just say girls cover up - period?

I don't think it makes any sense to say that girls in general should cover up. Little babies? 2 year olds? I don't know about that.


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
But why would it make her feel weird to wear a swimsuit top or shirt? I don't see why it is inherently negative that girls cover up on top and boys don't. Different than what the boys do - yes. But not bad unless we send that message IMO.


If I knew we were going swimming/fountain play, I would have brought her swimsuit. But I didnt. Because I didn't have a swimsuit, we figured if we kept her shirt dry, she would be less uncomfortable on the ride home. There was no reason not to let her go top-free as the benefits to a dry shirt (and the complete inability to even distinguish her from a boy in those conditions) made sense.

I think she would "feel weird" when I had to pull her aside based on some stranger's comments and cover her. Other posters had the same experience growing up and DID feel weird and embarrassed by it. One said her body issues started that minute. SO sad.

If I had DD's bathing suit, she would have worn it. I'm not all about trying to make everything "equal." But if my kid preferred to wear board shorts and be topless, over her suit (FWIW she doesn't care), then I would allow that too.

Incidentally, I would think perverts would be just as enticed by a little girl in a swimsuit or bikini than one wearing baggy knee-length board shorts.

XOXO
B


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## hipchick (Nov 5, 2005)

There was an old comic strip where it showed the family walking at the beach. There was a sign that said "Topless Beach." The daughter (5 or so) said, "Is that a beach where girls aren't allowed?" lol.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
But why would it make her feel weird to wear a swimsuit top or shirt? I don't see why it is inherently negative that girls cover up on top and boys don't. Different than what the boys do - yes. But not bad unless we send that message IMO.

The "women in other areas of the world go topless" point has been made. Well, when in Rome and all that. But here - in our culture - females cover up on top. I don't see what is so terrible about it. Boys and girls, men and women - we are different. Little girls could try to pee standing up but it would be awfully messy. Why not just accept that there are some differences.

I agree that there is nothing sexual about a 3 year old without a top on at the water fountain. But even here on the this thread, there are a variety of opinions on what age girls should start covering up. So given that, doesn't it make more sense to just say girls cover up - period?

It's not the wearing of a top that causes problems. Its the pulling her aside when she isn't wearing a top and telling her to put one on that causes the problems. It's sending a clear message that she absolutely must cover up, no matter how she personally feels about it.

And no, it doesn't make more sense to say girls should cover up period. It makes sense to say that with a young child, the stranger telling you to put a shirt on your dd has a right to her opinion, but doesn't have the power to make you or your child conform to her comfort level.


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## majormajor (Nov 3, 2006)

when my DD was 2, we took her to the boston children's museum. they have a water play area, and my DD's shirt ended up soaked. so, i took it off her to dry it in the hand dryers (her only response to that was "oh boy, can i go in now?!"). by the time i finished drying it and turned around again, half of the little kids were shirtless. it was cute and funny. but, sometimes it just makes more sense. the OP's situation sounds the same... kids are really uncomfortable in wet clothes.
in general, if DD wants to be shirtless in public past 8 or so, i'll probably have her wear a shirt. other than that, meh, it's up to her. i wish the US were more relaxed about toplessness anyway, i was at a water park in germany and i was envious of the moms that were so comfortable topless. it just seems easier. interestingly, my DH is european, but he's more prudish about nudity than i am. it depends on what part of europe you're talking about.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

When I lived in Indiana, we were at a beach and this little 2-year-old girl's mom was told to make her wear a top. AND when we lived there, my dd was running around in the sprinkler in just a swim diaper and a neighbor brought over a swimsuit for her to wear. LOL.

No, I don't think little girls need to wear a top. Ridiculous.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

i've only skimmed the thread, so excuse me if i'm being repetitive. but IME, little girls (and boys) develop modesty at some point (and it's different for every kid) and *that's* the only point at which i think it would be appropriate to cover a child... and only to the extent to which the child wanted in order to feel comfortable. if a child is happy and comfortable without a top, or pants or whatever, that is fine with me. my kids run around naked a lot - though DD1 has begun to develop some modesty at 5 yo and while she's happy to run around naked at home with just us, and certain close family, she no longer wants to in the presence of friends or family we're not super close to. she's figuring it out all on her own, and i want her to learn to trust her instincts and figure out what level of modesty makes her happy - not impose it upon her.

and yeah, there are perverts out there. but honestly the ones you need to be more aware of and worried about are the ones you actually know personally and don't seem like perverts. children being molested by total strangers in the park is not exactly a common occurrence. i'm all for being on my guard about potential sexual predators, but not at the expense of making my daughter (or son) embarrassed about his own body, which is in no way shape or form going to help protect them against predators.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
If I knew we were going swimming/fountain play, I would have brought her swimsuit. But I didnt. Because I didn't have a swimsuit, we figured if we kept her shirt dry, she would be less uncomfortable on the ride home.

I think she would "feel weird" when I had to pull her aside based on some stranger's comments and cover her.

Incidentally, I would think perverts would be just as enticed by a little girl in a swimsuit or bikini than one wearing baggy knee-length board shorts.

I have been in that same situation - once when dd1 was three or four. There is a walk through type fountain at an outdoor mall. The kids love to put their hands in the spray. Our kids were doing that, one kid went totally in (getting drenched in full clothes) and the rest of them followed suit immediately. I had no other clothes with me (now I have three kids and at any given point there is likely enough clothing in the car to take care of all of us). That time I just used it as a good excuse to hit Gymboree (a few steps away) and buy her a new shirt and pair of shorts.

But if that wasn't an option, I think I'd have her wear her shirt in the fountain, and go without a shirt on the car ride home. You can always crank the heat if needed, or cover up with someone's second layer.

My thing is that it wouldn't have been a stranger's comment making her feel any way - I would have had the shirt on her from the get go, just because it is out in public, and she is a four year old girl, and girls don't go topless in this country as a general rule (Mardi Gras and Spring Break not withstanding!)

I think there is a difference between the sprinkler in your own yard and a public water fountain/play area. But it is clear that this is just a difference of opinion type thing. And this thread is reminding me a of a pic of me and my sister, in shorts but topless, running through the sprinkler in my grandparents backyard. No idea why we would have been as we had an entire suitcase full of clothes just inside, and we were about 4 and 8. And this in a very conservative area of SE Idaho.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I have been in that same situation - once when dd1 was three or four. There is a walk through type fountain at an outdoor mall. The kids love to put their hands in the spray. Our kids were doing that, one kid went totally in (getting drenched in full clothes) and the rest of them followed suit immediately. I had no other clothes with me (now I have three kids and at any given point there is likely enough clothing in the car to take care of all of us). That time I just used it as a good excuse to hit Gymboree (a few steps away) and buy her a new shirt and pair of shorts.

But if that wasn't an option, I think I'd have her wear her shirt in the fountain, and go without a shirt on the car ride home. You can always crank the heat if needed, or cover up with someone's second layer.

My thing is that it wouldn't have been a stranger's comment making her feel any way - I would have had the shirt on her from the get go, just because it is out in public, and she is a four year old girl, and girls don't go topless in this country as a general rule (Mardi Gras and Spring Break not withstanding!)

I think there is a difference between the sprinkler in your own yard and a public water fountain/play area. But it is clear that this is just a difference of opinion type thing. And this thread is reminding me a of a pic of me and my sister, in shorts but topless, running through the sprinkler in my grandparents backyard. No idea why we would have been as we had an entire suitcase full of clothes just inside, and we were about 4 and 8. And this in a very conservative area of SE Idaho.

This was at a mall though, at a mall *everyone* is expected to stay fully clothed. DS (3 yo) tried to take his shirt off in the foodcourt just the other day, and I stopped him.

If it's a place where a boy needs to keep his shirt on, then it is also a place where a girl has to keep her shirt on. However, if it's ok for boys to run around half naked...


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
This was at a mall though, at a mall *everyone* is expected to stay fully clothed. DS (3 yo) tried to take his shirt off in the foodcourt just the other day, and I stopped him.

If it's a place where a boy needs to keep his shirt on, then it is also a place where a girl has to keep her shirt on. However, if it's ok for boys to run around half naked...

Yes, I agree. There is a huge difference between toplessness being not okay for _everyone_ and toplessness being not okay for only _female_ children.

It's pretty sad when gender discrimination is so prevalent in a society that it oozes as far down the age ladder as 4 years old.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
But why would it make her feel weird to wear a swimsuit top or shirt? I don't see why it is inherently negative that girls cover up on top and boys don't. Different than what the boys do - yes. But not bad unless we send that message IMO.

The "women in other areas of the world go topless" point has been made. Well, when in Rome and all that. But here - in our culture - females cover up on top. I don't see what is so terrible about it. Boys and girls, men and women - we are different. Little girls could try to pee standing up but it would be awfully messy. Why not just accept that there are some differences.

I agree that there is nothing sexual about a 3 year old without a top on at the water fountain. But even here on the this thread, there are a variety of opinions on what age girls should start covering up. So given that, doesn't it make more sense to just say girls cover up - period?

Uhm, no. It doesn't make sense. What makes sense is allowing different families to decide for themselves what is appropriate for them. They allow public opinion to be the decider on that sort of thing in some Muslim countries. In America we aren't real thrilled about someone else deciding how covered/not covered we are. (I am *not* knocking Muslim covering rules. I am *thrilled* that it's easy to buy Muslim clothing online and I do all but head cover most of the time.)

Oh, and it takes practice but girls can pee standing up without making a mess.


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## Elizabeth2008 (Nov 26, 2008)

that's absurd and I wonder if such a policy actually exists or if she was just being puritanical. I have clear memories of running all over the neighborhood shirtless in the summer until I was like 6 years old! And the only reason I stopped was because I decided I was uncomfortable and didn't want to do it anymore. No one asked me to put a shirt on.

Little girls don't have breasts!!! What the hell is wrong with our society....


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## Elizabeth2008 (Nov 26, 2008)

My thing is that it wouldn't have been a stranger's comment making her feel any way - I would have had the shirt on her from the get go said:


> Uh, no, this is a quesiton of public policy and it is absolutely NOT justifiable to say that a 4 year old boy can have his shirt off in a water play area but a 4 year old girl cannot. 4 year old girls are not college students on spring break! Honestly, it is so sad to hear people reinforcing such ridiculous gender stereotypes. Girls should just "accept the differences". Accept what? That they are now and will forever be treated differently for NO good reason just because their girls. That's not the kind of message I would want to send to my daughter. Honestly, if someone had asked my 4 year old daughter to "cover up" while boys were being allowed to run around half naked I would tell her to stick it and she could try to sue me if she wanted.


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## melissanc (Jun 24, 2008)

My 6 year old DS has very long hair. I cant tell you how many time we have been at a pool or the beach and some nosy person ( usually an older woman ) asks me if my girl is a little too old to go topless. Usually I just say " Oh shes from France " and the funny thing is most of the time that does the trick!

If I say no she is a boy half the time I have to argue with them about it as if I would be lying about it!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissanc* 
My 6 year old DS has very long hair. I cant tell you how many time we have been at a pool or the beach and some nosy person ( usually an older woman ) asks me if my girl is a little too old to go topless. Usually I just say " Oh shes from France " and the funny thing is most of the time that does the trick!

If I say no she is a boy half the time I have to argue with them about it as if I would be lying about it!


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissanc* 
Usually I just say " Oh shes from France " and the funny thing is most of the time that does the trick!

laughup


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissanc* 
My 6 year old DS has very long hair. I cant tell you how many time we have been at a pool or the beach and some nosy person ( usually an older woman ) asks me if my girl is a little too old to go topless. Usually I just say " *Oh shes from France* " and the funny thing is most of the time that does the trick!

If I say no she is a boy half the time I have to argue with them about it as if I would be lying about it!

Best come back EVER.









I don't think kids should have rules forced upon them because of gender.
In fact I don't think ANYONE should have rules forced upon them based upon their gender.

In this case the whole "accepting differences" thing rankles me. Once upon a time women just "accepted" that men and women were different, and that is why they couldn't vote or own land or get a divorce. Rules based arbitarily on gender are ridiculous.

OP -I would've probably just looked at that lady like she had a second head and asked to see some proof. What a jerk.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

My oldest daughter hated her bathing suit - so clammy and impossible to get on and off when going to the bathroom. At home I would let her swim in her play pool naked - it's a body of water, no different from the bathtub, IMO.

For public swimming I bought her a pair of boy's swim shorts - SO much easier to get on and off when wet!

She was six or seven, I think, when she asked for a "girl" bathing suit. My younger daughter has always been a fashion plate and wanted the fanciest, ruffliest bathing suit she could find. But then, she doesn't like to actually get wet!

I understand fears of pedophiles - we had an ugly incident at a water park some time ago, a man filming girls. But pedophiles find children sexually appealing because they are children, not because of the way they are dressed or not dressed. I don't worry about my kids being kidnapped because of how they are dressed (or not dressed).

However, in this day and age of camera phones and tiny cameras, I would hesitate to let my children play topless in public, because a photo or video might wind up on the internet.


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

my 6 yr old still goes outside in just her panties...my niece who is 11 (lives in MI right now) goes topless as well... *I* prefer to go braless...

The world needs to get over itself... there are bigger things to worry about


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

where i live in new york, most of the playgrounds where kids would be going in the sprinklers etc, have a rule-only chikldren and caregivers allowed. That keeps out most pedaphiles i guess (unless they are there with their children). A lone adult without a kid, not only a suspicion, but would be breaking the law....and yes, i let my 3 year old go naked sometimes.


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## LiamsMommy (Jan 20, 2004)

That is ridiculous! A 4 yo? C'mon people!


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
You never know what's going to catch the attention of a pervert. A certain hair color, build, tom-boyish or girly-girl looks, bobby socks or pig tails... I refuse to live my life with "those people" constantly on my mind. I keep my kids close, my doors locked, and my eyes peeled but I'm not going to cooperate with the sexualization of my small children.









:







:









it IS frustrating that there actually are perverts out there...but ya know, many of them are into little BOYS too. so maybe little shirtless boys turn them on. i agree about not confining to the perverts of this world...

i personally stopped allowing my dd to go shirtless after about 4 but i wish it were acceptable in our society...even those little skirts over bathing suits or shorts could be considered 'sexy' or whatever our uptight-unhealththy-view of sexuality...oh don't EVEN get me started.

as long as those perv's don't get their hands on my kids i'm cool. i still worry about my kids' pics being taken though from some perv afar w/ a zoom lens...i remember when i was about 7 i was at a bagel shop in manhattan & there was this man who didn't even ask if he could photograph me at the counter...i was SO SCARED. it was downright WEIRD. i remember feeling so weird for years about this man having photos of me...god people are odd.

but when i used to go to a little beach w/ my old homeschooling friends my friend and i let our kids go nakey...totally n akey. you should have seen some of the people totally apalled by the idea. my friend and i were like TOO BAD, we are NOT covering up for YOU. stupid uptight people.







:

sigh.


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissanc* 
My 6 year old DS has very long hair. I cant tell you how many time we have been at a pool or the beach and some nosy person ( usually an older woman ) asks me if my girl is a little too old to go topless. Usually I just say " Oh shes from France " and the funny thing is most of the time that does the trick!

If I say no she is a boy half the time I have to argue with them about it as if I would be lying about it!









that is too funny! i actually met a girl at the open house of our waldorf school the other night and i swore it was a boy...i didn't want to ASS-U-ME any gender cuz to me, children are an essence, not a gender...sometimes when i'm holding/nursing my son i just feel his essence and almost forget he's a boy. maybe that sounds bizarre but i guess it just is that i connect w/ his soul, his spirit, not his gender. he also plays with dolls, like fairies and wears pink.







someday he will be a sweet man and a loving father if he has a child... so screw what any other boys/men say about that...or girls/women for that matter.









maybe if i let my son grow his hair his 'father' will fade out of the picture...


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## Ericka1999 (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peony* 
I can't believe they were complaining about 3 and 4y old going without a shirt. I'm totally comfortable with that, and would have no problem with my DD1 at 6 now running around without a shirt on. I'm sorry this happened to you.







:

I personally wouldn't have a problem seeing girls under 10 or 9 depending running around without a shirt on.

That just comes to show this puritanic roots that this country still has.This reminds me just this last month my 2 daughters and I were sitting watching America's funniest home videos and it showed this part in which this girl appeared to be 7 and she had no shirt on so they had blurred her chest part.That's just ridiculous!It's the adults who see that as sexual and happen to sexualize an innocent 7yr old girl who doesn't see things as sexual yet and every 7yr old girl looks the same bare chested same as boys that age.

Now I believe that it's ludicrous that there are such local laws rules that a 3-4yr old need to have a top on.I believe that there's a right place and a right time to have your daughter shirtless out in the public.When you go to Europe in most countries and certain places and parks everyone is comfortable and not offended at the sight of a shirtless girl that is 10 or even 11 and under.I would personally have my daughters put a shirt on public, since living in this American society there are people with the vast majority who are offended seeing a shirtless 6 yr old.

As for around my house espeically since we live in a 10 acre land surrounded by fence and trees I let my daughters go outside shirtless.Since it's just the 3 of use girls I have raised both of my daughters 9&6 yrs old to be comfortable with there own bodies, also were they spend most of the time indoors shirtless, except when it's cold.

If I happen to live in a suburban neighborhood home depending how high the backyard fences are and no one outside is able to peak through I would let both of my daughters go out to the backyard shirtless.But if that wasn't the case with tall fences I would just make my daughters wear a shirt when going out the house.The would only be shirtless indoors.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ericka1999* 
As for around my house especially since we live in a 10 acre land surrounded by fence and trees I let my daughters go outside shirtless.Since it's just the 3 of use girls I have raised both of my daughters 9&6 yrs old to be comfortable with there own bodies, also were they spend most of the time indoors shirtless, except when it's cold.

I agreed with your whole post, but...

completely OT: 10 acre land surround by fence and trees! This is exactly what I wish we will have someday.


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