# I didn't realise CIO was so... everywhere...



## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

So... my houseguest lets her son CIO. We were just sitting in the living room, listening to him cry. It was awkward and weird raising our voices over his cries. He is 16 months old. My guy is 7 months.

Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.

I mentioned this to my friend and found out that his houseguest also does this. The kid doesn't always cry - just needs to in a new place, he explained. I really didn't know anyone who did this previously. My extended family doesn't.

I know some people would have said or done something, but all I said to her was that I have never let my DS cry like that except when he is in the car seat and I have no safe place to pull over. (This happened 3 times so far... I do pull over when it is safe to do so)

We talked about sleep solutions and ways we could make my DS sleep a little better - she had great ideas actually and now my son naps in the nursing pillow. He feels like someone is holding him and he can't roll over easily.

I would like to think that there was a bit of a cultural exchange between our families. I did notice that she lay down in the room with him for his last nap here, trying, she said to get him to sleep without tears. And our family is now a little less tylonol shy when DS is obviously in pain.

Anyhow, I just found it weird to experience this in my home. With friends we love and respect, who must have gotten some bad info along the road. They are our son's Godparents, but would never be his legal guardian. We have chosen someone a little closer to home, and our values for that.


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## zonapellucida (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kat_shoshin* 
So... my houseguest lets her son CIO. We were just sitting in the living room, listening to him cry. It was awkward and weird raising our voices over his cries. He is 16 months old. My guy is 7 months.

Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.

.


ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!! get her some information for there is something seriously wrong with anyone that would do that!~!!!!! Poor baby, this made me sick


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

I honestly would go check on him and probably cry a little myself. I just can't help myself.

When I'm at my CIO friend's house, I can't go check on her babe when he cries, but the CIO is actually winding down a bit because he doesn't cry anymore, he just screams at the top of his lungs now, so she goes and gets him (you go, buddy!)

She wants more kids (I don't know why -- she can't obviously handle the ones she has) and I have a feeling that when she lets her newborn CIO, I won't be hanging out with her very much anymore.

I just don't think our friendship will survive child abuse. I will probably be friends with her again after she's finished her cruelty, because she loves her children and is just extremely uneducated, but during the early months of her babies, I don't stick around.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kat_shoshin* 
Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.
.

I don't know how parents could do this. To be honest, when I first started at MDC, I had never heard of CIO and didn't know what the big deal was. I get it now.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I wouldn't have let her do that under my roof. I can't control what someone does in their own home outside of illegal child abuse or neglect, but as a guest in my home, no way. there's no spanking, screaming or cio. I'm not going to start telling people not to feed their kids junk food or not give them tylenol, but I draw the line at allowing a baby to cry alone. I would have said nicely but seriously that either one of them go pick up their child or I would.

I'm glad that she tried laying with him for his nap. maybe it will occur to them that something is wrong here.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Ugh- this remids me of the time I was visiting my sister and she just turned off the monitor so we wouldn't have to listen to her adopted 15 month old daughter scream!!!My sis said"She's not done her nap yet"







: This child is from China where she spent most of her first 9 months in a crib. My sister's whole approach has really disturbed me and to tell the truth we aren't close anymore at all. I just can't stand what that says about her .


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Whew! That makes me really sad...poor kid!

I just wanted to mention about having your son nap in the nursing pillow...be cautious. I know Boppy has all these warnings about not using it with a napping child. Your babe is probably old enough that it isn't a suffocation risk the way it would be with a newborn, but still - be careful!


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## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

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## AoifesMom (Sep 7, 2007)

I feel sick for that baby.. How can any mama do that? I couldn't stand the sound of it.


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## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

My DH was just reading these responses and said,

"Why have a baby monitor?"

We have one so that we can run in when he is crying. I agree. But then, I also read the continuim concept years before I became a mother.


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

wow. i don't think i could listen to that in my own home







. that must have been so hard







. poor baby.

i was at a party a while back and one of the guests there locked her son in a room (not their house) and he was screaming and kicking the door and she left him in there until he fell asleep. broke my heart.


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## AnalogWife (Sep 8, 2007)

That poor baby. I remember being home for the summer in college, and my 9-15 month old nephew was there (can't remember how old he was) for the weekend and he was crying in the room where my stepmother had him set up. I knew *nothing* about babies, but didn't like the sound of him crying so I went to go get him, I opened the door and he was standing in his crib, his little arms went up b/c he wanted me to pick him up. Tears are forming as I type this...my stepmother, the awful person that she is, snapped at me from her bed yelling at me to shut the door and that I didn't know anything about babies, and who did I think I was. She shot me down and I reluctantly shut the door.







: 15 years later I hate myself for shutting that door. I hate that I cowered down to her when my instincts told me to save my nephew from fear of a foreign house away from his mother. Never again will I be around a baby crying like that!


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## RoundAbout (Aug 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kat_shoshin* 
Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.










: I hate CIO.

I am not a perfect parent - there have been times where I have had to walk away from DS for 5 minutes to regain my composure when I am frustrated and upset. But the coldness of this just makes me ill.


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## Mateo'sMommy (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kat_shoshin* 
Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.

We did a lot of research on "sleep training methods" and being CIO the most common there are now a lot of ways for parents to approach it... However in EVERY document, article, magazine, website, etc was never recommended to leave your child cry to this level, as a matter of fact it was emphasized that if something like this happened maybe it was not the right time to try CIO and it should be delayed for few more weeks or to consider a different option.

so...I guess this is one of those cases when people interpretate things the wrong way and they end up hurting innocents







:


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## MommaGreenBean (May 8, 2007)

That is so sad









I think I would freak out. I know I'd go in there and ask if I could rock him to sleep, and if they said no, I wouldn't be spending time with them again.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

I remember when I was pregnant with my dd, our neighbours had a 6 month old? He was pretty young anyway. My mil came to help us for the last month of my pregnancy, and she had the misfortune to sleep right next to his room(we were in a 4-plex) They let him CIO every night.
When we finally met them (just before we moved) I asked the mother if her baby was sick, he cried so much at night. She just shrugged and said they never heard him cry at night anymore







:
Turns out they also used Babywise. Nice couple, but I couldn't be around them after I found that out.


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## elisabeth78 (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deir* 
Ugh- this remids me of the time I was visiting my sister and she just turned off the monitor so we wouldn't have to listen to her adopted 15 month old daughter scream!!!My sis said"She's not done her nap yet"







: This child is from China where she spent most of her first 9 months in a crib.

Oh, how sad. In an incredibly awful way it almost makes it better that she doesn't know what it's like to be responded to right away.

I don't think I could listen to a child in my house cry it out. I could probably let someone do the Ferber thing of checking every five minutes, but crying to vomit, no.


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## crnnoel (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoundAbout* 







: I hate CIO.

I am not a perfect parent - there have been times where I have had to walk away from DS for 5 minutes to regain my composure when I am frustrated and upset. But the coldness of this just makes me ill.

I was just thinking the same thing. I had to walk away from ds this afternoon for about 10 minutes because I just couldn't handle it (long story - we were up all night, I even had to take him for a drive at 2am to get him to sleep for a little... and then today he was just miserable because he was overtired) and I feel so guilty - I could never do CIO over and over and live w/ myself. 10 minutes of crying so I could collect myself feels selfish enough and I feel guilty enough about that.

I'm glad you're having an effect on them though - at least they're starting to try for less tears! Good for you.


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## Ginene (Oct 15, 2007)

I just can't do it. I have 4 kids and have never done it.


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## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

So... I mentioned to another friend that my son has been a real handful when I leave (I sell Tupperware and go out for a couple of hours 3 nights a week). I mentioned that DS is good for about an hour and then when it comes time for bed, fights sleep with everything he has and DH has to wear him in the Ergo until I get home.

My friend said that it was time for DH to lay down the law and teach him to sleep. She said that one day her kid was driving her crazy and she decided it was time to go on a schedule. So she put her to bed and told her to sleep - and checked on her every 20 minutes or so - and she cried for 3.5 hours that first night!!!

And here is the kicker: "I couldn't believe she cried for so long - she was only 6 weeks old and couldn't have weighed more than 8 lbs." (She was slightly premie at 5.5 lbs at birth) She couldn't believe she would have the stamina!
She only cried for 1.5 hrs the next night and so forth - and so this is my example of how to do it.

This woman is a "tree hugging dirt worshiping" pagan sort like myself - or perhaps - not like myself.

My son does cry pretty inconsolably while I am out - and I agree that he has to learn that it isn't the end of the world - particularly since my mat leave is up soon! However, I think that there is a huge difference between him crying while his father plays and feeds and holds and carries him and being let to cry alone in the crib!


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## milliegirl (Apr 3, 2006)

Wow, that just makes me want to cry







I have NEVER understood why CIO is so pervasive either. Seems like every other person treats this like a badge of honor (as in "I showed my kid who was boss").

When DD was a week old, my FIL told me how they "had to" let my DH CIO for FIVE HOURS once when he was 6 weeks old, but he didn't cry when they put him down after that. Um, yeah, because a six week old needs to be tough and independent, right? BARF! uke


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

How could someone look into their lo's face and be able to let them cry like that? They are so innocent. Being a mom has made me a softer person that's for sure and it all has to do with that sweet little adoring face.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

Letting a child cry until he gags or vomits is abuse and the parents need counseling so they do not continue to abuse this child. I know this happens but I am just HORRIFIED. What has this poor little baby done wrong????
Did want to have sympathy with the mamas who walk away when needed. My DS2 pushes me to the moments when I give myself a "time-in" until I feel patient and/or kind enough to handle whatever madness is happening.


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## JessBB (Apr 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magali* 
How could someone look into their lo's face and be able to let them cry like that? They are so innocent. Being a mom has made me a softer person that's for sure and it all has to do with that sweet little adoring face.









: ITA! Before DS, I was all "no baby in the bed; show 'em who's boss; bf'ing after 6 mo is shady, yada yada yada." Cut to 9 m.o. cosleeping ds, no thoughts of weaning anytime soon and we would never, ever CIO! I seriously DO.NOT.GET how someone could physically do this! I would flip out!


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zonapellucida* 
ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!! get her some information for there is something seriously wrong with anyone that would do that!~!!!!! Poor baby, this made me sick









It tears me up as well. I can't stand it when someone says CIO is the best way and then downs someone that co-sleeps. They really just don't "get it" I guess.







:

I agree that it's child abuse. Not to mention, how can someone seriously sit and ignore a crying baby or child like that. so sad.


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## nini02 (Jun 28, 2007)

I still get email newsletters from a mainstream website, and this quoted from good ole dr. ferber's book "solve your child's sleep problems" in the latest issue:

Quote:

"Occasionally, as parents increase the time they wait before responding, their child cries so hard he throws up. If that happens, go in even though the time isn't up yet. Clean your child up and change the sheets and pajamas as needed. But do so quickly and matter-of-factly, and then leave again."















I can't imagine







:


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nini02* 
I still get email newsletters from a mainstream website, and this quoted from good ole dr. ferber's book "solve your child's sleep problems" in the latest issue:















I can't imagine







:

ugh.. ferber is borderline child abuse. i cant believe letting your child puke themselves is considered ok.







:


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Sometimes I wonder...do people who do these type of things (letting a 6-week-old CIO for 3.5 hours







:, letting any age child cry until they vomit, etc.) - have some kind of issues where they did not bond well with the baby at birth, or something?

I am not trying to be patronizing to them, and it's normally *not* the kind of speculation I like to engage in. And I know everyone's experiences are different. But my reaction to my infant's cry was so visceral, it so completely FLOODED me with the IMPERATIVE to soothe...that I truly cannot understand how a new mother cannot feel even a shadow of that. I think a lot of it is hormonal and it just seems odd that some moms should have tons of the "soothe the baby" hormones and others should seemingly have none.

If they even had a fraction of the feelings I experienced, they simply could not do these things, no matter how many people had told them it was the right thing to do. At a certain point your biology overrides cultural conditioning. We'd flee instinctively from a large animal running towards us no matter how culturally conditioned we had been to regard these animals as cuddly and harmless, kwim? An instinct to soothe one's own crying baby seems *just* as essential to our species' survival and thus *just* as hard to resist as the urge to flee from a possible predator.

I think it is easier for dads and other non-maternal caregivers to let a child CIO, although a baby's cry is harrowing to everyone. I always have hated to hear a baby cry and felt a pang in my heart. But when it was *my* baby...just night and day...10,000 times more intensity. I couldn't have let a 6-week-old CIO for anything, probably not even if it was somehow required for her health. I'd have had to be restrained.

So...I always do wonder, were these women who do this "extreme CIO" separated from their babies right after birth, did that hormonal connection somehow get severed? It does not make sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint that mothers should fail to have the normal reaction to their babies' cries, that is, to rush to soothe them...and the rush gradually gets less urgent as the babes grow, such a natural process.


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## emo1221 (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 

She wants more kids (I don't know why -- she can't obviously handle the ones she has) and I have a feeling that when she lets her newborn CIO, I won't be hanging out with her very much anymore.

I just don't think our friendship will survive child abuse. I will probably be friends with her again after she's finished her cruelty, because she loves her children and is just extremely uneducated, but during the early months of her babies, I don't stick around.

I have a mutual friend who DID have more children after letting her first dd cry and cry for hours, and apparently, she hasn't learned anything because she's still doing it with her second child.

She's lost three friends, myself included, because we all have children and we just can't sit there and listen to her babies cry while she goes about her business.


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## sunshine1793 (Oct 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
But my reaction to my infant's cry was so visceral, it so completely FLOODED me with the IMPERATIVE to soothe...
....
If they even had a fraction of the feelings I experienced, they simply could not do these things, no matter how many people had told them it was the right thing to do. At a certain point your biology overrides cultural conditioning.
....
I'd have had to be restrained...


When my dd cries, it is the same for me. I cant imagine not being able to pick her up, cuddle and nurse her. It is impossible for me to just let her cry - I physically cant do it. It is like every fiber of my being just vibrates; I cant eat, talk, or even think. It feels like I would rather have my skin peeled off than to let her cry. Even now that she is almost 6 months, when she makes a certain sound or cry, its like I am on auto-pilot, and I'm picking her up faster than my brain can even register the thought. I agree with you as well, my husband and family, as much as they are upset by her cry, they just dont seem to feel it as intensely as I do.


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## ewins24 (May 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nini02* 
I still get email newsletters from a mainstream website, and this quoted from good ole dr. ferber's book "solve your child's sleep problems" in the latest issue:















I can't imagine







:

Its just hard to believe that someone could do this to a child that is so innocent!
I can't imagine doing something that feels so wrong to me.

A new "friend" sd to me the other day "I'm letting H cio again tonight, last night was sooo hard. I hope she doesn't cry like that again." I asked her how long she cried and she sd TWO HOURS! I told her that that was just mean and abusive to do that to a baby that was 6mths old (she was told that a baby had to "learn")







:. I may have lost a new friend who I liked but I just couldn't keep my mouth shut about that precious baby.

Don't people realize that babies NEED us? Their wants are their needs. They are NOT trying to manipulate us by crying! WAKE UP PEOPLE OUR BABIES NEED US!

Sorry, I'll stop now. But this just breaks my heart, as I know it does y'all too.


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## gurglebaby (Aug 21, 2007)

:This makes me so sad! I'm so sorry for the poor sweet baby.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ewins24* 
Its just hard to believe that someone could do this to a child that is so innocent!
I can't imagine doing something that feels so wrong to me.

A new "friend" sd to me the other day "I'm letting H cio again tonight, last night was sooo hard. I hope she doesn't cry like that again." I asked her how long she cried and she sd TWO HOURS! I told her that that was just mean and abusive to do that to a baby that was 6mths old (she was told that a baby had to "learn")







:. I may have lost a new friend who I liked but I just couldn't keep my mouth shut about that precious baby.

Don't people realize that babies NEED us? Their wants are their needs. They are NOT trying to manipulate us by crying! WAKE UP PEOPLE OUR BABIES NEED US!

Sorry, I'll stop now. But this just breaks my heart, as I know it does y'all too.


I think many people (my family included) were raised with that whole if you hold them too much you will spoil them if you run to their every whimper they will get spoiled.. i never thought it was ok so I am the lone freak in my family, but that doesnt bother me at all. When she cries for more than 2 or 3 minutes it makes me want to cry and I have cried before when she was crying for long periods of time. Isnt that what mothers are supposed to do?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Yes, everywhere. Or I am very unlucky with who is around me. *sigh* I hear CIO BS all.the.time. My Gram raised me & was an anti crying warrier. I am so glad I was raised with that influence. Letting a baby scream is foreign to me. Heck, if I didn't SPRINT (not walk) to my babes she told me off. Allowing a baby to cry & not respond goes against every natural inclination inside a mother. I cannot wrap my head around it.







:


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Yeah, I dont get how people do that. But, I don't get how people think/do a lot of what mainstream parents do (FF, have baby watching tv/movies, pacifiers, not co-sleeping, disposable diapers, etc)...

I mean, I suppose not letting my son CIO might be a tinsy bit more work (ie, I end up holding him a lot, and wearing him sometimes), but, really.. its not like its going to last forever. I'm sure he'll figure out sleeping by himself at some point, so I'm just not going to worry about it for now...


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kat_shoshin* 
So... my houseguest lets her son CIO. We were just sitting in the living room, listening to him cry. It was awkward and weird raising our voices over his cries. He is 16 months old. My guy is 7 months.

Our friends admitted to letting him cry until he vomits and then going in silently and cleaning him up and then leaving and letting him do it again.

I have the same response as just about everybody--It horrifies me!

But what DO you do in this situation??? It's not easy for me to sit back with the attitude of yea-whatever-you-parent-your-way-I'll-parent-my-way...


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## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

Nora'smomma:

Quote:

So...I always do wonder, were these women who do this "extreme CIO" separated from their babies right after birth, did that hormonal connection somehow get severed? It does not make sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint that mothers should fail to have the normal reaction to their babies' cries, that is, to rush to soothe them...and the rush gradually gets less urgent as the babes grow, such a natural process.

What I find interesting is that these 2 women were handed their infants from birth and never separated... I wasn't permitted to hold my child until he was 30 hours old... and didn't receive him until 4.5 days old. I actually thought that because of 4 days on his back in NICU, that he would just sleep in the bassinett - boy was I wrong. He was so hungry for people that we couldn't put him down again... and oh yeah - we really haven't yet.

I told my Mom that I would never put him down again... and we literally didn't for several days. She complains loudly that we spoil him - but luckily for us, she believes that it is too late to change that and spoils him along with us!


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

Right before we left the hospital with SJ, they had to take her picture -- she started crying while they were taking the picture and Ina (not quite 3 at the time) took off at a dead run to go get her baby sister. "They're hurting our baby!" I had to grab her to stop her. I was so proud of her (and SJ arrived about the same time I got sister stopped).

I think that if you grow up in a non-CIO environment, it's much more difficult to ignore a child's cries. But a lot of people have grown up in a CIO environment, and it's what they know.

My SIL is friends with a Babywise mom.







I know her friend loves her baby. And that she suffers when she does CIO. But she is convinced it's the only way to go. Her mother has told her to relax. They sent her MIL home early, because MIL was "interfering" with scheduling by picking up a crying/fussing newborn. I don't know if this plugs into this "Moms must be martyrs and suffer for the good of the child" idea or what .... but it's really messed up. She's told SIL how difficult it is. SIL, of course, has a super-easy baby who wouldn't cry if she did try CIO so I don't think she "gets" it much.

When I hear CIOish things, I usually offer suggestions of what worked for us, in a "it doesn't have to be so extreme, maybe babe is teething, have you tried X instead?" sort of way. Or suggest the No Cry Sleep Solution book.

I agree that it's basically child abuse. But it's so widespread, I think people get really defensive about it unless you couch suggestions in a nonthreatening way, KWIM?


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## cheygirl (Jun 13, 2006)

My neighbor follows Babywise and has started doing CIO with her not-quite-4 mos baby. She seems to have some doubts about whether CIO is the right thing to do, but her husband and her doc are pushing her to do it, and she seems to defer to them quite often. She asked me for my opinion and I told her I refused to ever to that to my baby. I told her babies that cry are communicating a need. I also made suggestions about how to handle their babe's night wakings. She nodded and agreed but I don't think it sank in. I feel so sorry for that little babe. I know these babywise/ferber types are out there but it was still pretty disturbing to find out someone I know does it. Gave me some insight into why people do it even if while have misgivings about it. I think they are made to think that it is a necessary evil, that to not do it will create bigger problems (i.e., a child that won't sleep) down the road. Depressing.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

oh this is such a sad thread







:
It makes me want to pick up and hold every baby that gets neglected...


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## sacredjourney (Aug 24, 2006)

That is so sad that she lets her baby cry until he vomits. I feel like that is a terrible way to begin a relationship with a little human who is dependent on you for all things, including cuddles and security.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
oh this is such a sad thread







:
It makes me want to pick up and hold every baby that gets neglected...

what you said.







:


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## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

My sister and I were just talking about this the other day. We were remarking that humans are the only mammals who will push there young infants away from them, sleep away from them and ignore their cries.







: No other healhty mammal would ever do this to there young, it is dependent on their species to keep their infants close by.

When I worked in the infant room at a early childhood education centre I couldn't stand it when parents told me they were feberizing or using babywise. They used to tell us to ignore their babies cries when we put them down to nap and I would tell them that I could not do that. it went against our policy at the centre to respond to an infants needs. I went to many workshops that showed the effects of brain development in infants who were not responded to and would share this info with parents. I have spent many days at the centre with a newly transition infant in my arms or in a carrier most of the day.


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