# Let's go over this again, what's wrong with time outs?



## ian'smommaya (Jun 7, 2004)

The big one, for me is the isolation aspect. I don't like the idea that conflict causes one to no longer be part of the group, that strong feelings or conflict mean you have to leave until the other person decides it's okay to come back.

So tell me why you don't do time outs?

*Related Article:* The Trouble with Time-Out by Marcy Axness


----------



## Red Pajama (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm going out on a limb to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with time outs as done in my house. When the kids were small, if they hurt a sibling or were really being a pill, they went "to the fish", a decorative stepping stone in my living room. It was for short time outs. Later, when I was dealing with biting between the twins or pinching when little sister was the same age, I said that one reason children bite (or pinch) was that they were tired, and they'd need to go to bed for awhile if they bit (or pinched). I was able to extinguish that behavior with no greater intervention on my part. I haven't needed a time out in a very long time, but I have told a child to go to their room until they felt better.

I don't think there's a problem with encouraging reflective thinking on behavior and separation from those hurt by your behavior if the family usually is well connected and supportive of each other. We do lots of together time. The majority of our interactions are positive. I am personally very comfortable with our discipline process, although as mentioned, time out isn't something our family uses much of anymore, just due to the maturation of the kids in question.


----------



## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

We run a punishment free household, so there's no need for time outs. I just think you should overall deal with the problem and solve the problem rather than being punitive. Consequences come naturally.

What's RIGHT with time outs?


----------



## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

We do time outs. They're time to take a break and regain composure. Or a time to reflect and redirect. They are not always punishment. Many times the time out is not alone, just a time to stop everything and sit for a minute. Sometimes I sit with my son, hold his hand or even hug. After, we always hug.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Time outs are what led me away from punishment. In order to keep my older kid in time out, it would have turned into some kind of horrible physical restraint issue, and it would have been more physical and negative and hurtful than spanking. So I didn't do it. I had to look past the behavior at the reason for the behavior, which isn't perfect but probably works as well as punishment and kept us on the same team.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think there is anything wrong with time outs. Sometimes a situation is overwhelming and being with the group or their parent makes it harder, not easier, for them to calm down. I think timeout can be very helpful for teaching children to recognize when they need a break from people or a situation. I prefer a situation where the child is allowed to come back when they feel ready though. I used a traditional timeout with my DD the two times she experimented with violence when she was six.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

We do use time-outs, and have been since our son was about 5. When he was younger, he rarely accepted being alone while awake, so it was extremely difficult to get him to stay in a time-out location, and after a few attempts we decided it wasn't a feasible method of discipline for our family at that time. Now he is willing to be alone but still prefers company, so we occasionally use time-out as a way of conveying, "I made it very clear that your actions were bothering me and you needed to stop. Because you did not stop while we were together, we need to be apart for a while so that you can remember to behave reasonably to me and I can recover from feeling so bothered." We use it only for this type of situation.

Here's an example: He's 8 1/2 now. Friday evening, I had explained that because of the previous Saturday's misery when he chose to use all his screen-time for the day first thing in the morning and then refused to turn off the TV and threw an enormous screaming tantrum, on this Saturday we would not allow any screen-time until after lunch. I made this very clear and confirmed that he understood. Saturday morning early (10 minutes before my weekday alarm goes off) he bounded into my room without knocking or saying, "Good morning," and immediately launched into a long long explanation of why he wanted to watch "Good Morning America"; each time he paused for breath and I attempted to respond, he shrieked, "Quit interrupting!!!" Meanwhile he was leaping on my exercise ball and rolling around the room repeatedly smashing into the corner of the bed and shaking it--a behavior he is very well aware upsets me, and I began making "stop" gestures the first time he did it, but he ignored me. After a few minutes I got out of bed, grabbed him by the shoulders, made him stand up from the ball, looked into his eyes, and explained firmly, "I told you there would be no screen-time until after lunch today, and I meant it. You know that I do not like being waked up early on Saturdays. You know that I do not like you bouncing off the bed when I'm on it. In ten minutes we will start again on this morning. Go back to your room and stay there for ten minutes. Don't even mention screen-time until lunch." Ten minutes later, I got out of bed, he came out of his room, and we said, "Good morning," hugged, and moved on in a normal way.

The time-out may have been useful for him, to go over what he did wrong and remember why he's not supposed to do these things. I'd like that, but the most important thing for me is getting a chance for ME to reset, get over the rude awakening, think about whether or not it is reasonable to cancel all screen-time for the day if the kid nags me one more time (this is the kind of decision that is much better to make in a slightly calmer moment, rather than to make a threat about it when I'm upset and then have to follow though), and get fully awake and centered so that I'm ready to deal with him again using MY good behavior. When he's behaving like he was then, I can't get over it while he's still in the room with me and constantly aggravating me. This is the reason I think separation is an appropriate consequence of that type of behavior.


----------



## bellyfruit (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't think using time-out conveys that conflict necessitates isolation. Most of our conflicts are small and we are able to talk through them. But, when things get out of control, like one of the kids is physically lashing out, screaming uncontrollably or a parent is so frustrated that they cannot honestly deal with the situation kindly, it is a great break. It is recognizing that space and quiet can be really helpful in regulating mood. But maybe that is just my introvert perspective.

When I read Alfie Kohn, I felt like I was being preached to by someone with great ideas who did not actually spend all of his hours day after day with his own children. I am not withholding love by creating boundaries. It is not saying "I don't love you" by taking space to address my real feelings and calming myself down. It is saying "This behavior you are unable to stop is too hurtful to the other family members for us to continue pleading with you. Go take a break and come back when you are ready to address the problem non-violently".

But every family needs to find something that feels right for them.


----------



## Skelly2011 (Sep 25, 2012)

Time out, in our family, just means taking a minute to breathe. When my daughter would start getting worked up I'd ask if she needed a time out or to talk it out some more. She really really benefits from taking a moment to think and cool off. She's 3 and a half now and when she starts getting angry she'll say 'I need time out for a minute' and shell run off to sit and think. I spend more time trying to get her out of time out than I ever have trying to get her in to time out.

I think it all depends on how you define it. I think what I've seen on super nanny etc looks a little combative at times, and I wouldn't be nuts about it. But for all my hippy dippy parenting philosophies I just cant see the harm of my daughter having a space to cool off when she's getting worked up. Mom and dad occasionally need our time outs too (DD is very fond of letting us know when we need one haha).


----------



## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

I don't do arbitrary "go sit in the corner for X minutes" time outs, but I do insist on seperation when things are going south. The vast majority of conflicts here are between siblings and I really don't see any other way to diffuse the-always heated- situations as well as preserve the peace for everyone else in the house.
I'm always open to ideas though.


----------



## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

I like to ask my DS to go run for a few minutes when he's in a fowl mood. He's a physical boy and comes out of his mood. He often asks for alone time and usually falls asleep.


----------



## MamadeRumi (Aug 5, 2012)

I use time outs for myself. When DS is being a pill, and it's already been a difficult day, and now I'm kneeling in front of the potty trying to gently persuade him to finish pooping so I can go finish dinner before it burns, and then he leans forward and pulls my hair, hard . . . at moments like those I will calmly announce that Mommy needs a little time out, and that I will be back shortly. Then I leave the room and go into another room and take a few deep breaths and calm myself down. When I return, I'm able to be a better mother than I would have been if I had stayed there. I'm an introvert by nature, and I work in an extroverted job, and then I come home to a child who I love more than life itself, but who needs Mommy, mommy, mommy all the time, so for my own sanity I need to take a few minutes sometimes to be alone and recharge. It isn't punitive. DS knows I'll be back, and I do always come back. If he turns out to be an introvert, too, he may also need some alone time, and I like to think that I'm modeling possible future behavior for him -- when you need a moment to yourself, take it, calmly, and without punishing others.


----------



## chirojodi (Jul 4, 2007)

We have absolutely no problems with time-outs in our house. If you choose to act in a manner which makes you difficult to be around and/or is unacceptable for our family, you are asked to remove yourself until you can be pleasant, nice, and a pleasure to be around. This rule applies to kids and adults alike and the time of the time out is determined by the person getting the time out. When the kids are calm, in control of themselves and their emotions and ready to by nice to be around, they are permitted to leave their rooms and rejoin the family. That may take 2 minutes or it make take 2 hours. It depends on the situation. They need to understand that certain behavior is intolerable (both in our family in society as a whole) and no one wants to be around someone who is miserable, or mean, or defiant, or disobedient.


----------



## Keesje Mills (Nov 11, 2011)

I have three boys (9, 7 and 2). It's nearly impossible to give one a timeout since there are no quiet spaces in our home & laughable when a sitter tries.

*The oldest* enjoys the outdoors and often goes on a walk when he's frustrated. The *2 year old* is happy just to be at someone's heels, but will spend time screaming into a pillow (until he realizes his control tactic doesn't work). The *7 year ol*d is addicted to the computer/video games. He lives in a fantasy land half the time and i don't want to discourage him from a future of programming or whatever... I try instead to introduce him to a variety of types of programs and make him come up for air (and spend an hour doing something very different). He can be very delicate and when he preceives animosity he breaks down & lashes out ("I hate my life!!" etc). SO... I am using the policy my folks used on me: "ground" the material objects. The wii's been grounded/off limits, the crayons often go on a high shelf, and i really look forward to grounding the car when they get older! (this works particularly well when you live out of town!) There is plenty to do and the less they have the more they seem to appreciate the world. If their problems are among themselves they seem to want to duke it out more oft than not... I find I take more time-outs than they do!


----------



## ilovemybabies11 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think they are useful in some cases. I think it's a natural consequence in certain cases. My son is extremely impulsive and we've learned it's due to ADHD.. He will often hit others just to stimulate excitement and adrenaline. He doesn't even consciously think about it, he just does it. It's not even when he's just mad or something.. He'll just pick on everyone all day just because. I know it's truly out of his control, and the only way I can teach him that he has to not hit is to have immediate consequences. Hitting=timeout. I've been using essential oils too and they've been helping but they're not a cure or anything. He's starting to learn that if he hits hell have to go to timeout, so it's a good reminder.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I actually feel like time outs saved my relationship with my daughter and let me be the kind of mom I want to be to my little girl. I don't see anything wrong with a break to reset. I don't think there is anything wrong with drawing a boundary. I am here to teach this inexperienced person what not to do and what to do instead and sometimes I can't get through to her until she has had a minute to chill out. And it does help me, too. I always like to come back after with a hug and we are both in a better place. There is no yelling, I always give a warning and then make good if she keeps pressing. I think it's easy to say what you would do in all situations from your limited experience with your own life and your own family/experiences but life is not one size fits all.

And I read something one time about a healthy kind of shame for kids, too. I really related to the idea that having the healthy kind of shame can be a guide for us as human beings, help us remember what we don't want to repeat. I think a respectful time out can be that kind of reminder.


----------



## bayoumel (Aug 27, 2013)

NEVER ONCE did "time out" with either of my boys now grown. I spoke to them respectfully always, treated them with dignity, expected a lot and they brought a lot. I've seen "mothers" slap a child's hand as they sit in the seat of the cart of the market because the child wants to Touch something. Children are information gatherers. So often, I see and hear the results of "parents" bringing small children into stores inappropriately and then having completely inappropriate expectations of them while there. Then, they hurt the child I assume.....to show who's boss, although THEY were the ones who brought the child there in the first place.

Nope, no time outs - no discipline except for talking about things with them or showing them what was safe, what was kind and respectful.

I have a beautiful corporate jet pilot, 29 and a highly gifted touring musician, 24.


----------



## Skelly2011 (Sep 25, 2012)

Bayoumel, it sounds like you raised your children with kindness and compassion. Kudos to you on that. But with all due respect, I wouldn't utter a time out in the same breath as slapping a child.

It looks like every single one of us that have commented positively on time outs here are essentially just using it as another word for cooling off. As I said before, when my daughter starts getting flustered and angry she'll say 'I need a time out', leave the room and come back when her thoughts are sorted out. I have difficulty even considering that discipline, let alone anywhere near physically abusing a child.

However dragging a child screaming and leaving them in a corner? I'll admit that's too harsh. But that just doesn't seem to be what any of us are doing at all.


----------



## anachka (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm probably emotionally damaging my child or maybe I'm not and it really isn't such a big issue. All I know is my dd is a spirited two year old. She tests boundaries continually and; while I am cognizant to the fact that when she purposefully hits one of her play dates on the head with a hard object she is simply testing another boundary or hungry or tired, I am ok with putting her in a different room to chill the @^%* out for a couple minutes. It's the principle. It's not ok to hurt someone. Not to mention chill outs are moments when parents can calm down also.


----------



## nicole528 (Jan 4, 2010)

I'd have to agree with Skelly here as 'time-outs' in my household are basically just a way for me and my child to cool off. She is 3 and she will push boundaries. She has outbursts at times and it seems, she loses controls of her emotions (all normal for a 3 year old). When these moments occur, I use time-out as a way for her to calm down. There have been times when I've said to her that we both need a time-out. I always sit with her (because if I left her alone, the situation would exasperate) and we do not leave until she is calm and able to discuss the incident that led to the time-out in the first place. This usually takes times and a lot of patience on my end. It helps tremendously for both of us to cool off and gives me some time to think about ways to discuss the issues with her. I've read the problems with time-outs and I've watched members of my own family implement them in the standard "Go sit on the stairs til I say" manner that don't seem very effective to me. But I guess I feel my version of 'time-out' is not the same thing; just the same term used.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't think there's anything wrong with timeouts either.

I don't use them. It's not effective here. But, for some, it might work.

For many parents, it's the best way for THEM to deal with a frustrating situation. I'm very well trained in early childhood, and even *I* get mad and need to walk away.

Sometimes, the timeout is for the caregiver to regroup, and not for the child to "think about what you did", because honestly, NOBODY sits there thinking about what they did. Not even an adult would go sit in a cubicle to "think about what they did". Your boss would make you fix what you did, not have you think about it. So, having the child fix the problem is more productive, unless the adult is very angry...then a time out is awesome.


----------



## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Time out's work great for us. When my kid gets to the point of being irrational, I tell him to go up to his room so that he can calm down and he can come back when he is ready. Mostly he comes down in a few minutes and apologises and we talk it out. Sometimes I go up to his room and he will be quietly playing with toys and we talk it out. And then we go on as usual.

Also, it's not me yelling "TIME OUT! Get to your room!" It's "ok, you need to calm down a bit, why don't you go upstairs?" I don't think of it as punishing him. It's helping him when he really needs it.

I sneak up to my room with a coffee and a snack every afternoon. Time out!


----------



## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with timeouts either.
> 
> ...


So true about the "think of what you did". I remember being told that and my only thoughts were RAGE!!!!


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

We use time outs, I guess, and I think they work well. But for us its not about punishment or sitting on a step for x minutes or anything. Its about learning to recognise in yourself when you need to step away, regain composure and breathe. I normally tell my kids to go to their rooms for ten minutes and calm down. My kids like their rooms, so tbh its worse for the sibling they share a room with really who sometimes I have to ask to come out of the room. Or I might send them to my room with a book. Its more about restarting the situation than a punishment. OTOH its not optional.

You need to parent the kids you have. I have kids who easily tend toward the wild and hyper, who get worked up and then people get hurt. When they are whirling round, lost in the game, they are not actually listening to me and in ten years of parenting I haven't worked out how to get them to snap out of it except by sending them off to calm down. I have a smallish house. Sometimes everyone needs to chill. Sometimes, when someone is hurt, feelings are running high and everyone needs to separate and calm. I've usually found things are much better after a separation, everyone is calmer and happier. In practice, the most I'm saying is that if you persist in hurting people or being mean, if you really cannot make yourself stop, then you will be asked to take yourself away.

Bear in mind that I am talking about a 10 year old and an 8 year old really here. There gets to be a point with kids that age where I think its helpful just to have clear rules and boundaries and they can work out for themselves how to keep themselves within them. I do actually feel it reasonable that if a 10 year old can't stop calling people an idiot, he removes himself.

My experience is not that kids experience time outs as being sent away or as rejection. Maybe if you lived in a huge house, but honestly you normally can't get that far from each other anyway. When I was a kid and we had time outs at school, or was sent to my room, I don't ever remember thinking my parents didn't love me or that my teachers hated me. Sometimes I felt that the punishment had been misapplied (I had a textbook irritating dob-you-in little brother-now one of my best friends). But I didn't feel unloved. Sometimes kids are extremely annoying-mine are anyway-and you are at the end of your rope and sending them off to cool down really can be the least bad option, IME.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Thats
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bayoumel*
> 
> NEVER ONCE did "time out" with either of my boys now grown. I spoke to them respectfully always, treated them with dignity, expected a lot and they brought a lot. I've seen "mothers" slap a child's hand as they sit in the seat of the cart of the market because the child wants to Touch something. Children are information gatherers. So often, I see and hear the results of "parents" bringing small children into stores inappropriately and then having completely inappropriate expectations of them while there. Then, they hurt the child I assume.....to show who's boss, although THEY were the ones who brought the child there in the first place.
> 
> ...


----------



## MamadeRumi (Aug 5, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Keesje Mills*
> 
> SO... I am using the policy my folks used on me: "ground" the material objects. The wii's been grounded/off limits, the crayons often go on a high shelf, and i really look forward to grounding the car when they get older! (this works particularly well when you live out of town!) There is plenty to do and the less they have the more they seem to appreciate the world.


Yes, I occasionally put a toy in a temporary time out. This usually comes after several requests and warnings -- e.g., please don't throw that toy car up in the air, in the house, next to the glass doors, you could break the doors, or the car, and either way one of us will be sad. Sweetheart, I know it is exciting that you just figured out that you can throw it that high, but this is not the place for throwing, and cars are not the best thing to throw (because I know you'll be very upset if you break that car). why don't you go outside and find something you can throw? A ball, or a frisbee, or even one of the lighter, plastic cars that won't hurt anyone and isn't likely to break? I can help you find something. Ahem, I see that you are now trying to be sneaky by hiding behind the chair, but guess what? Mommy can still see the car catapulting through the air, dangerously close to the glass doors. Please stop, I'm asking nicely. If you don't cooperate, that car might have to go on time out. Oh, the car is making you throw it in the air? I see. Have you explained to the car that it could get hurt or that it could break the doors? Try explaining that, and while you are at it, tell the car that it will have to go on time out if it insists on flying through the air in the dining room. Remind it that it is a car, not an airplane.

Car goes sailing by . .. . and I catch it.

O.K., that car is going on time out. Why don't you and I go outside?


----------



## DCGreenMamma (Aug 27, 2013)

This thread is very interesting an I appreciate BOTH sides of the coin. I have a generally very good natured 3yo boy and time outs have worked well for us this past year. He is warned that he will get a time out for continuing to behave in a way that is hurtful or dangerous, and if he proceeds he gets a time out...2 minutes at the bottom of the stairs...I tell him what he did wrong, I ask him to say he is sorry, we hug...over...great. Well not so much anymore, lately he is fighting the time outs and working on the "testing". He won't stay put, and will run and hide...he also wont do what we ask, brushing teeth and getting ready for bed was the issue last night. I would be very interested in OTHER strategies. Some mention they treat their kids with kindness and compassion and expect a lot...what does that mean when you have a 3 year old screaming no in your face and running away? I have been trying to take away "privileges", like books before bed, screen time, treats, but he doesn't seem to care in the moment.

Last night I gave up on the time out, and put him in bed lights out without even trying to brush his teeth. He exploded into tears and said he was sorry right away, we went in and brushed his teeth read some books and all was fine, though 30 minutes later than bedtime should have been. I felt bad though. Reasoning with a 3 year old is a real challenge sometimes. I do try to keep my cool, but admit sometimes I raise my voice.

If anyone could provide specific examples of how you would handle a child who won't stay in time outs I would appreciate it.

Thanks to all!


----------



## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

DCMama - I'm a big fan of the book the Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It's really all about how you actually have the power to get your kids to do what you need them to do with, really, just your will alone.

Example: Me: "OK, it's time to brush out teeth."
Kid: "NO!" runs away
Me: Deep breath/sigh. Walks after kid and stands there staring at them with the raised eyebrow look. And, I stare and stare and stare. I say nothing.
Kid: Ranting or sulking or whatever... "I don't want to... "
Me: "I know you don't want to brush your teeth. I know you want the day to be over. I know you want to .... " It's great if they'll get in your lap at this point for a hug, but sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. No big deal either way. "I wish we could just play and play and play all day. I wish I could just sit here all day with you in my lap."
Kid: Sob/sigh/whine/complain.
Me: "I know honey. Let's get our teeth brushed real fast so we have more time to read books."

I'm telling you it works.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chirojodi*
> 
> We have absolutely no problems with time-outs in our house. If you choose to act in a manner which makes you difficult to be around and/or is unacceptable for our family, you are asked to remove yourself until you can be pleasant, nice, and a pleasure to be around. This rule applies to kids and adults alike and the time of the time out is determined by the person getting the time out. When the kids are calm, in control of themselves and their emotions and ready to by nice to be around, they are permitted to leave their rooms and rejoin the family. That may take 2 minutes or it make take 2 hours. It depends on the situation. They need to understand that certain behavior is intolerable (both in our family in society as a whole) and no one wants to be around someone who is miserable, or mean, or defiant, or disobedient.


Yep, we did something similar here with our kids. Bad choices and negative attitudes can affect everyone in the family. Why subject yourself and the other siblings to that?


----------



## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

It's pretty clear that "time out" can take on vastly different meanings. I honestly had no idea in my son's toddler years how on earth anyone was able to get a kid into time out. Mine certainly would escalate immediately with any sort of isolation or being made to sit still in a chair to cool off. I didn't have any realization that a time-out was a real option.

What I see now is that moving to a quiet place with a calm and caring parent is a potentially very helpful tool. I've learned so much over the past few years about anger management and nonviolent communication that had honestly never been presented to me prior to parenting. Sure, I would instinctually huff off by myself if I was really upset, it didn't occur to me to model and teach that (in a non-huffy way) to my son. We get it now, though. If there's conflict over space we model asking for space or moving elsewhere to get space from others.

I feel that time out is useless and potentially harmful when used as a punishment, but see lots of value in learning to express and respect boundaries (need for space) to avoid heated conflict or lessen it. I just wish I'd know to model and implement it sooner- for self and kids. Now to learn how to accept and/or change behaviors without taking away privileges. It's really hard to be and allow kids to be autonomous and learn from life in a way that is peaceful and empathetic to everyone. We're all learning every day.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xerxella*
> 
> DCMama - I'm a big fan of the book the Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It's really all about how you actually have the power to get your kids to do what you need them to do with, really, just your will alone.
> 
> ...


That's a nice idea and I do believe you, I'm sure it works for your kids and who knows, maybe it would for my little girl, too. I just don't like to lie as a mom and I would be totally lying if I said I wished we could just sit there all day with her in my lap. I like to hold her, don't get me wrong, but I all day? Nope, I have other things I like to do in the day, too. It really doesn't feel true to me to sympathize in that way, I don't really vibe with it. Some things just need to get done, I am not really one to bemoan the fundamental things that are non-negotiable.

I do remind her that the faster she gets it done then the more time we have for books, so we do agree on that


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DCGreenMamma*
> 
> This thread is very interesting an I appreciate BOTH sides of the coin. I have a generally very good natured 3yo boy and time outs have worked well for us this past year. He is warned that he will get a time out for continuing to behave in a way that is hurtful or dangerous, and if he proceeds he gets a time out...2 minutes at the bottom of the stairs...I tell him what he did wrong, I ask him to say he is sorry, we hug...over...great. Well not so much anymore, lately he is fighting the time outs and working on the "testing". He won't stay put, and will run and hide...he also wont do what we ask, brushing teeth and getting ready for bed was the issue last night. I would be very interested in OTHER strategies. Some mention they treat their kids with kindness and compassion and expect a lot...what does that mean when you have a 3 year old screaming no in your face and running away? I have been trying to take away "privileges", like books before bed, screen time, treats, but he doesn't seem to care in the moment.
> 
> ...


I know you asked for other ideas and hopefully you will get some. But I want to mention that I went through that with my little girl, three was the. hardest. age. period. But I think the testing is all about seeing if those boundaries are going to remain. "How about now? But what if I do this? Now? How bout now?" So sticking with it through the rough part, even when you can't see it working is really just setting the stage for better self control and understanding of the rules and what is expected in the future. Does that make sense?

And also, to me, it sounds like you got through to him by putting him to bed with the lights out. I def. believe that just as much we as parents need to consider our kiddos feelings, we also need to help them understand ours. His behavior is frustrating to you and you conveyed that to him. Of course he can't be expected to control his impulses very well at his age, but again, it's laying a foundation, it's all about balance.


----------



## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

Daupinette- that's just my dialogue with my child. You would insert your dialogue on what you would want to do all day. "I wish we could go to Disneyland and run around all day". Or whatever.

The point is to recognize your child's feelings with no conditions. And then move on to what has to be done. It's like if you said "I'm so angry at my boss!" It's no help for me to say, "We'll too bad, you have to go to work! Something's need to get done and work is non negotiable!" That's not helpful. You already know that. You're just venting and looking for a sympathetic ear. It's more helpful for me to say, "you had a bad day at work, huh?"

We know this as adults talking to adults, but for some reason we don't apply it to our children. There's another great book called How to talk so children will listen and listen so children will talk.


----------



## anachka (Oct 24, 2011)

I love hearing from both sides of this spectrum and Ill go so far as to say all of us mamas rock in our roles bc we are considering and HAVING this conversation! Go us!!







. I've read the Elaine Faber (sp?) book and am down w it, but, at the end of the day I feel like its ok to have certain expectations of my 2 yo...IN REASON! She's actually pretty good about doing what needs to be done (I.e. tooth brushing, butt wipes after poop, running to grab a towel if she spills something) but of course she's a kid and has an opportunity to bitch, if she chooses, when the occasional thing that needs to get done has to get done. I validate her to an extent, but I'm very much of the, sorry charlie, this is what needs to go down right now, I hear ya, but ... As humans, there are things that have to get done even if we occasionally don't want to do them..perhaps when she's older and able to reason ill embark on open dialogue concerning what she's feeling about having to get ...done and why she's choosing to be obstinate but, again, I don't really feel like I'm asking a ton to have expectations w my kiddo. Her life is totally full of awesomeness and joy and getting her needs fully met so I'm ok with my expecting her to do a few things that need to get done, even when she occasionally wants to do otherwise


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

anachka, I love the Faber and Maslich book (sure that's spelt wrong!) but I don't think that anything in that book precludes having expectations of your kids. I think Xerxella's post really sums it up well. You can totally have expectations of your kids-I do of mine, but at the same time you can listen to and validate their feelings. I listen to my kids, but it doesn't mean my boundaries move, unless my kids do manage to convince me I'm wrong.

Actually the main issue I have with the book is something else. I think sometimes we have to stop complaining and get on with stuff. I think its possible to get into too much talking around a thing, and I think over thinking can paralyse us into inaction. I think its a fine, fine line between talking something out and getting it off our chests and talking round and round in circles, getting more and more worried. I also think its not good for anyone, kids included, to get into the habit of endless complaining and moaning and I think that that could be a possible outcome of using the book. We know our own kids though and we know what works and what they need.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xerxella*
> 
> Daupinette- that's just my dialogue with my child. You would insert your dialogue on what you would want to do all day. "I wish we could go to Disneyland and run around all day". Or whatever.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xerxella*
> 
> Daupinette- that's just my dialogue with my child. You would insert your dialogue on what you would want to do all day. "I wish we could go to Disneyland and run around all day". Or whatever.
> 
> ...


That's actually the thing, kids don't have the life experience to know that it needs to get done.
Anyway, I am actually very secure and happy with haw I see this issue, I feel like you need to change my mind and I feel fine saying agree to disagree. What works for you seems annoying and excessive to me. What works for me seems punitive to you. I don't think we have to do it the same to both be good moms.


----------



## anachka (Oct 24, 2011)

Again, I think we all rock at our jobs for even entertaining this discussion! And I am a firm believer that we all do what's best for our families! I do agree that there are factors such as age, etc that come into play with all of this. And I 100% agree that there can be an over discussion w little ones when they are of appropriate age to reason, etc. I'm a relatively new mama but have worked with children for over 13 years in varying capacities and ive found that there really is a truth to over discussing something!! Kids will go on and I love their persistence but, again, when something needs to get done....lol. I love giving (esp older kids) the opportunity to express themselves in an open dialect and yet I also agree that, as an adult, I am secure in my position as guiding them within a set of parameters. I think we all basically agree on this, we just all have varying parameters. Some of us will discuss more w our kids and some less, and I think it's all good. I'm pretty confident that all of our littles FEEL heard by their parents which is really what matters. Whatever works for our families!


----------



## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

We don't do time-outs. My kids would be devesatated. I think we run our family a little differently though. No rules. No limits on screen-time, no food restrictions. Kids sleep in our room, so no fights at bedtime. If the kids fight with each other, I might suggest that they hug each other. We have lots of conversations about respect, I reflect back what I think they might be feeling (that frustrates you?, are you feeling tired?). High expectations for behavior in public and at home, but not unrealistic or expectations that are innappropriate for age. It works very well for us.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xerxella*
> 
> But, I was glad to hear how you do things and I'm glad to read books on how others do things and see if any of that would work better for me.


Perfect!


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> We don't do time-outs. My kids would be devesatated. I think we run our family a little differently though. No rules. No limits on screen-time, no food restrictions. Kids sleep in our room, so no fights at bedtime. If the kids fight with each other, I might suggest that they hug each other. We have lots of conversations about respect, I reflect back what I think they might be feeling (that frustrates you?, are you feeling tired?). High expectations for behavior in public and at home, but not unrealistic or expectations that are innappropriate for age. It works very well for us.


I guess this leaves me with some questions. If a time out would devastate your children how do you plan on helping them cope with school issues? Or do you home school? And how about in lessons outside the home or on playdates when someone might be less than nice, would they be able to handle that? I guess I feel like setting up your home to be completely conflict free might set your kids up for some unrealistic expectations...? Am I missing something?


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Fillyjonk wrote:

Quote:


> When they are whirling round, lost in the game, they are not actually listening to me and in ten years of parenting I haven't worked out how to get them to snap out of it except by sending them off to calm down.


My parents' solution to that type of problem was to grab the kid and give one hard spank. It did snap me out of it, so that I would leave the room in tears, feel horribly ashamed for about an hour, and be much subdued for at least the rest of the day--so my parents think it worked; in fact they think it was "the only thing" to do in that type of situation. I disagree. I think a child can be sent away to calm down without being hit!!! But I agree with you that there may be no way out of the whirling not-listening that does not involve removing the child from the situation; I certainly haven't found one for my kid when he gets like that. I've often had to speak very firmly and physically hold him still and/or physically move him out of the room to get his attention, but it CAN be done without pain or shame.

DCGreenMomma wrote:

Quote:


> Well not so much anymore, lately he is fighting the time outs and working on the "testing". He won't stay put, and will run and hide...he also wont do what we ask, brushing teeth and getting ready for bed was the issue last night. I would be very interested in OTHER strategies.


Yeah, I can relate! Xerxella's suggestion is a good one. A similar approach, which I once saw described around here as "waiting for the bus," is to state clearly what needs to happen and then act like you are waiting for something that is certainly not within your control but which you expect will happen soon, like waiting for a bus to come, being neutral toward the child rather than giving him much attention either negative or positive. A good way to state your expectation is "when...then". For example, "When your teeth are brushed, then we can read a story."

If you search "toddler toothbrushing" on my blog, you'll find a very detailed story about how my son and I managed to drag out toothbrushing over 45 minutes, in which I tried a number of strategies that might well have worked on a different child, or even on my child on a different night--this could give you some ideas to try--but ultimately it seemed that he really needed me to demonstrate that I was in charge and serious about getting those teeth brushed. Here's the gist of the conclusion:

Maybe it's not true of all kids, but with Nicholas, a power struggle will be prolonged as long as we parents allow it to be. *Once he's shown that he's not going to accept the inevitable without a fight, instead of engaging in the fight, we need to impose the inevitable.* Anything else is just delay. If anything, further delay increases his negative reaction to the imposition of the inevitable.

I don't like overpowering anybody-it doesn't make me feel like I've won; it makes me feel like we've all lost-and it was disturbing to see that tactic achieve the goal when nothing else would. But as the days went on, I found that *having been forced into it just once had left him a little more resigned to the fact that his teeth were going to get brushed every night* between putting on pajamas and hearing stories.

I'd love not to have power struggles like this. I wish we could get along all the time and be reasonable. When Nicholas starts defying instructions and raising distractions and yelling at me, I feel just sick inside, and I want to set an example of being very sweet and gentle. I want to be like those parents in the gentle discipline books who pull creative solutions out of thin air and get everyone to agree! Sometimes, I am.

But it's possible to offer too many choices about things for which there really is no choice. You have to brush your teeth. There might be some options about exactly how and exactly when, but it's got to get done. I've seen many situations over the years in which we try to make these inevitable things easy for Nicholas, yet he resists and resists and resists endlessly. We are giving him too much control of the situation. When we take charge and make it happen, he may be very upset and angry, but at least it got done. And occasionally-this toothbrushing struggle was the first time I saw it clearly-*he responds to having been forced into it by demanding a second chance to demonstrate how he can cooperate.* (The sooner we take charge, the more likely that is. After a longer struggle, he tends to hold a grudge for a while.)

If you find that a simple task of routine hygiene has become a lengthy struggle requiring your full creative resources, yet it's still not getting anywhere&#8230;count to three, maybe, and then just make it happen. It won't be fun. You will feel like a horrible ogre. But if you go through a long, drawn-out negotiation every single time you try to do anything, because you've been showing your child that you're willing to do that, and he enjoys the game of seeing how long he can delay, you know what? You will turn into a horrible ogre anyway, and it will happen very suddenly, when your frustration and resentment finally explode at a level that isn't really fair to a little kid who's living in the moment and has been unaware of the cumulative stress he's been causing you with the negotiations you have been accepting.

Things Not To Do:


Don't spend more than ten minutes trying to get a toddler to agree to do something that really must be done. Make it happen. (You might extend the time for an older child, but still, there's got to be a limit.)
Don't keep on waiting to act as you're starting to get really angry. When you are yelling, "JUST HOLD STILL!!!" over and over again and feel like strangling the kid, you've already lost control of the situation, and the longer you go on letting the kid wriggle and filibuster, the more parental authority you'll lose. Also, it's much easier to be firm without hurting anyone when you are relatively calm.
Don't feel guilty about taking control in a way that is firm and might be uncomfortable if the kid struggles but does not injure him and does not involve yelling, shaming, overburdened sighing, or abandonment. You could do worse. I know I have. It usually comes about because I did not take control but only resented him for not giving it to me!

I hope this helps!


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I guess this leaves me with some questions. If a time out would devastate your children how do you plan on helping them cope with school issues? Or do you home school? And how about in lessons outside the home or on playdates when someone might be less than nice, would they be able to handle that? I guess I feel like setting up your home to be completely conflict free might set your kids up for some unrealistic expectations...? Am I missing something?


A 'time out' would be a betrayal of our relationship and produce feelings of abandonment. DD1 had to sit out for part of recess during Kindergarten for a minor infraction (she's now in 2nd), and is still upset by it. I do not homeschool. My kids don't have any issues at school, dance, gymnastics, or any other activity they do. They generally listen and behave appropriately, so reprimands from adults in authority positions are pretty rare. If it became common, I would pull my kids from that activity. I'm not sure how enforcing time-outs would make a kid better able to handle a less than nice kid on a playdate... Kids don't have to be punished to behave well. It really isn't neccessary. Just FYI... I really didn't think it was possible to parent this way until I saw it successfully modeled for me.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

If you find that a simple task of routine hygiene has become a lengthy struggle requiring your full creative resources, yet it’s still not getting anywhere…count to three, maybe, and then just make it happen.  I do this pretty frequently. When the kids don't want to get up for school in the morning, they get dressed, by me still in bed. If younger DD doesn't want to brush her teeth, I do it for her. I don't force hygeine issues on older DD. She's pretty good about it anyway, but if she decides to skip a shower or something...her decision.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> DD1 had to sit out for part of recess during Kindergarten for a minor infraction (she's now in 2nd), and is still upset by it.


This what confuses me. This seems not ideal to me. I still wonder if I am missing something.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> If you find that a simple task of routine hygiene has become a lengthy struggle requiring your full creative resources, yet it's still not getting anywhere&#8230;count to three, maybe, and then just make it happen. I do this pretty frequently. When the kids don't want to get up for school in the morning, they get dressed, by me still in bed. If younger DD doesn't want to brush her teeth, I do it for her. I don't force hygeine issues on older DD. She's pretty good about it anyway, but if she decides to skip a shower or something...her decision.


You brush their teeth because they don't want to? That is just the opposite of what I want to be doing. I don't have time to do this, I would never get out the door if, at 5/almost six, I had to dress her and brush her teeth and put her shoes on and feed her breakfast and get her lunch together and shower myself and dress myself and make my own lunch and check my email.......It's just not practical for me. And I don't think it's age appropriate, either.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Why would it be inappropriate to brush a 4 YO's teeth? I rarely dress them because they don't like it. Incentive for them to do things for themselves... Disclaimer though...I leave the house at 4:30 most days and DH gets the kids ready for school. I only do this on occasional days off.  My kids are very sensitive. Reprimands from teachers are not well received nor would I expect them to be. If I were treated like that on the job, I would quit, so I would I expect them to be subjected to harsh (IMO) punishments. I'm not sure of any kids that like punishments or time-outs, why would they? Its so much easier to have a conversation about what is expected with expected results. They respond very well to this. Like I said, DD generally doesn't have any issues and is very well adjusted. It works really well for us.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> Why would it be inappropriate to brush a 4 YO's teeth? I rarely dress them because they don't like it. Incentive for them to do things for themselves... Disclaimer though...I leave the house at 4:30 most days and DH gets the kids ready for school. I only do this on occasional days off.  My kids are very sensitive. Reprimands from teachers are not well received nor would I expect them to be. If I were treated like that on the job, I would quit, so I would I expect them to be subjected to harsh (IMO) punishments. I'm not sure of any kids that like punishments or time-outs, why would they? Its so much easier to have a conversation about what is expected with expected results. They respond very well to this. Like I said, DD generally doesn't have any issues and is very well adjusted. It works really well for us.


Yeah, this is pretty much what my friend said made her job really hard, as a teacher in pre-k, is parents who don't give their kids any idea about rules/consequences/"punishments" and then she gets the fruits of that labor in the form of children who just don't know how to handle getting in trouble, which, according to her will happen to every child at some point. Getting corrected in school should not be a drama or devastating or crushing, it's just a fact of life. We all make mistakes and in school it's the teachers job to you correct you when you do. And no, I don't think kids like being corrected, but I don't think that makes it wrong. I don't think you can expect every adult to handle your child the way you do, and I don't think it a favor to your child to want there life sterilized in that fashion anyway, at least I don't want that for my child. People handle things differently and I think it's great for kids to see that and experience it for themselves, see that things can be different but they are going to be ok.

And you would quit your job if what exactly happened? I didn't understand that. You consider a reprimand a harsh punishment?


----------



## lilblueberry (Jan 18, 2012)

I totally agree. I know this thread is abt time outs, but this has gotten interesting. Being able to receive discipline or correction without holding a grudge is a characteristic I WANT my dd to have. It's a part of life!


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Lilblueberry, that pic of your little one is stinkin' adorable!


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

"If the kids fight with each other, I might suggest that they hug each other."

Seriously? For real? That works in your house? Because when my kids are fighting, the last thing they want to do is hug each other. In fact, I think it would be a little insulting to them to suggest that they did. But maybe that's just my kids.

I'm glad it works for you, but honestly, plenty of us have tried the whole gentle explaining thing and our kids still push the boundaries. And a quiet, calm word, doesn't work. So I wouldn't assume the rest of us are doing anything wrong. You've got a good hand there-enjoy it









EnviroBecca, just to make one thing clear. I don't hit my kids. I have THREE kids. The issues in my house are mainly between them, any parent of 2+ kids will tell you so. I'm not trying to underestimate life with one, but I think parents of several kids tend to find them incredibly easy when they only have one, and that's becuase, IME, its the interaction between them and the need to balance needs that makes it so hard.

I do want to be very clear that I do not hit and have never hit my kids, and I'm not sure how obvious that is from your reply. I really do want to be clear on this, because its important to me. I did have parents who hit, including a very unpleasant period in my teens which resulted in me leaving home at 15. So this is important to me. However, because there are younger kids around, the stakes in my house can be higher. When I have a kid whirling around like a dervish, or two of them goofing off and not listening, there can be a real risk to another child, my own or someone else's, in getting hurt. Now I'm all for parenting as kindly and gently as possible but in the final analysis, to protect the other kids, I will certainly use firm words, I guess, I'd physically move them. Its rare for me to do that though. I also don't actually agree that sending a kid to their room is shaming them, but that might depend on your child. I'm not really clear what this "shaming" is anyway-I'm British, its not a term we use. What's wrong with a kid feeling some shame?

"Being able to receive discipline or correction without holding a grudge is a characteristic I WANT my dd to have. It's a part of life!". <= hell yeah. Sometimes my kids are on the receiving end of unfairness also, from teachers, other parents etc. Now while I do want my kids to have reasonable assertiveness, and I will stick up for them while justified, I really don't want them them to be the kind of kids who can't roll with any bit of unfairness without it ruining their day. You know why? Its their day that gets ruined. We are home/unschoolers but that actually makes it all the more important for me that my kids can roll with stuff, to allow them to access the classes they want and so on, and certainly without being the unsocialised homeschool kids (people do, IMO, tend to assume that of homeschooled kids-I don't want to play into that perception. We get less rope than others, and that's the reality of it)


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> I also don't actually agree that sending a kid to their room is shaming them, but that might depend on your child. I'm not really clear what this "shaming" is anyway-I'm British, its not a term we use. What's wrong with a kid feeling some shame?
> 
> "Being able to receive discipline or correction without holding a grudge is a characteristic I WANT my dd to have. It's a part of life!". <= hell yeah. Sometimes my kids are on the receiving end of unfairness also, from teachers, other parents etc. Now while I do want my kids to have reasonable assertiveness, and I will stick up for them while justified, I really don't want them them to be the kind of kids who can't roll with any bit of unfairness without it ruining their day. You know why? Its their day that gets ruined. We are home/unschoolers but that actually makes it all the more important for me that my kids can roll with stuff, to allow them to access the classes they want and so on, and certainly without being the unsocialised homeschool kids (people do, IMO, tend to assume that of homeschooled kids-I don't want to play into that perception. We get less rope than others, and that's the reality of it)


yes, yes and yes. Ok, so I'm glad it's not just me, I thought I was missing something.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

The reason I'm not down with time-outs as they are usually deployed is that I don't believe in withholding love on purpose to condition a child to behave the way I want him to in this moment. Also, for the very small children, it's hard for them to understand the relationship between time-out and what they did wrong.

The expression "time out," when I first hear it, sounded so nice. It took me awhile to realize that it actually means "go sit in the corner," or "go to your room." Yes, better than hitting or yelling or a big guilt trip, I suppose. Certainly better than siblings picking on each other! But not a great default.

I think there's a really big difference between a child feeling shame because he realizes he's done something wrong and regrets it, and me intentionally shaming the child. Learning and growth sometimes come with negative feelings. I don't manipulate those feelings on purpose to get my own way! That's not fair. I have too much power in the relationship.

I do not think any child is going to respond with equanimity to being punished, whether at home or at school. This idea that they should be able to "roll with a bit of unfairness"--it's unrealistic. It's also not the greatest idea, writ large, for the child's future personality. Should we really teach them to roll with unfairness? Really?

I'm going to slip up and get angry at my son sometimes. I can't be a perfect mom. I worry a lot about what I do wrong. I'm not a behaviorist, though. I'm not trying to use rewards and punishments to condition the child. He's a thinking human and I can engage him in the process of learning what I believe will help him in the world and in relationships. I guess I think a real time-out, a rest period, can work well for a lot of kids--help them recharge--but I don't like it as a punishment.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

"It's also not the greatest idea, writ large, for the child's future personality. Should we really teach them to roll with unfairness? Really? "

Well yes, I do think they should be able to roll with a little unfairness. Its just about having a bit of perspective. Life isn't fair, you pick your battles. You work out what really needs dealing with and you deal with that. The whole point about rolling with a little unfairness is that its not writ large. Its a _little_ unfairness-I said already I believe in intervening for real injustice. Its not sweating the small stuff, not bearing grudges over stuff that doesn't matter. Its not being oversensitive to stuff that really, really in the long run does not matter. I do think that's important, actually. I think its likely to be hard to be happy when you worry at every slight. Better I think to learn that sometimes people act unfair or irrational, its not usually personal, its usually just a teacher being stressed at dealing with 30 kids, a friend having a hard day. The best way I know to learn that is by experiencing it, and by talking it through together where they need more guidance, which is what we do.

We all know people who take every little thing to heart. I don't really want that for my kids. I do want them to have a certain amount of resilience.

OTOH we do all want different things for our children and have different concerns. We come from different places. And we're behind a computer screen. If you saw the way I actually parent, as opposed to how I conceptualise parenting, you might well take a different view. Or not.


----------



## lilitchka (Jan 19, 2012)

to a child, especially a very young one, the most important thing in life is their relationship with their parents. Their parent,s love is number 1 thing in their lives!

everything else comes second.

so when my child has a behavior that I don't like, and every time I decide to punish him by putting him in time out and withdrawing the most important thing in his life: my love.

How is that fair?

Most of what will happen at school/park/classes is not comparable to parental love withdrawal.

for the very young child, his relationship with his teacher, peers doesn't come close to his relationship with his parents.

so giving the worse punishment repeatedly to prepare for lighter punishments later in life doesn't make sense to me.

and as some pp said, punishment or rewards only work as external motivators. Do I really want my kids to behave ''well'' just because they don't want to get caught?

my most important parenting tool and the most (effective) is my relationship with each of my child. If anything affects negatively our relationship, then it is harder to connect with them and teach them. Tim outs would definitely affect negatively our relationship, and therefore their behavior and my ability to teach them and communicate my expectations.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> This idea that they should be able to "roll with a bit of unfairness"--it's unrealistic. It's also not the greatest idea, writ large, for the child's future personality. Should we really teach them to roll with unfairness? Really?


For me it's an adamant "really" I don't want my daughter growing up to be captain-of-the-fairness-police. I want her to be able to move through things in life with getting caught up on every little snag. You something wrong, you take a little time out, you move on. You make a mis-step at school, teacher corrects you, you move on. No harm no foul. Yes, there are things I want her to stand up for in life, but life is unfair every. single. day. I don't want her grieving that every step of the way.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lilitchka*
> 
> so when my child has a behavior that I don't like, and every time I decide to punish him by putting him in time out and withdrawing the most important thing in his life: my love.
> 
> ...


----------



## Skelly2011 (Sep 25, 2012)

Jumping back into this discussion. Im seeing the words "shame" and "withholding love" popping up an awful lot here, and I'm extremely curious where any of you are getting this from? Has anyone even read the responses from those of us who use time outs?

Last night my husband was overtired and getting frustrated with the kids. My daughter said she thought daddy needed a time out, he agreed, and he went and read in the backyard for a few minutes and came back happy. At no point would he have questioned our love for him or felt shamed, and neither does our daughter. She's still allowed to talk to us when in time out if she needs to, she's allowed to leave when she needs to, no one yells or cries.

I feel like there may be a picture in some commenters heads of a child, over or under stimulated and acting out, bawling as his mother drags him by the arm into a corner and shouting at him to stay put for fifteen minutes. I haven't seen a single one of us discuss that as an option. Everyone on earth gets to the point where we need a moment to breathe. Where we're grumpy and can't be reasoned with. In my house, when we get like that (every single one of us, with the exception of the resident newborn of course) we go off somewhere quiet and gather our thoughts for a moment so we can come back and be more receptive to talking it out. Our daughter suggests time outs more than her father and I combined.

Could someone PLEASE explain to me where the shame and withholding love lies in there?


----------



## Red Pajama (Jun 11, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skelly2011*
> 
> Could someone PLEASE explain to me where the shame and withholding love lies in there?


I'm going to agree with the thoughts behind this post. While some *adults* may perceive that kids think that time out means mom (or dad) doesn't love me, I don't believe that's what's going on, nor do I think most children would think this way.

People are amazingly varied. Their are many ways to parent successfully. If I raise well-adjusted children who want to come home for holidays and spend time with me, I think in the end, I'll judge myself a success. In the mean time, I want pleasant family life. For us, that means that if you are being hurtful, openly angry, or just really tired, I'm going to suggest that you spend some time by yourself for awhile. And I'll rub your back if you ask, and you can still come into my bed in the mornings, even when you're 8. And I'll cook the breakfast you ask for, and when I'm sick, you'll take it upon yourself to take care of me, even though you're only 8.

That's what it looks like here. I'm not withholding love by offering a time out.


----------



## lilblueberry (Jan 18, 2012)

I think if the child feels parents are withholding love the parents are not handling the discipline correctly. Setting limits and boundaries for children is so important. Without it they don't feel secure. When they don't follow the limits, there should be a consequence or else the child thinks rules can be broken. My sister in law said when she was little nobody told her what was right and wrong and she remembers growing up wishing someone would show her and tell her.
I also think there is a diff between discipline and punishment. Punishment doesn't lead to self correction. Discipline does. Punishment would be withholding love which makes a child believe parents love is based on their behavior. YUCK!
And shame is not always negative as someone posted earlier. Shame lets us know we did something wrong and leads us to want to change. Shaming a child is different. Shaming modifies behavior so the child learns to act diff in front of parents/teachers, etc. but nothing is learned.
If my dd was shamed by a teacher I would be PISSED but if my dd felt ashamed because her behavior got her in trouble, I would ask her what her part is in it and how she will make a more appropriate choice next time.


----------



## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Xerxella*
> 
> DCMama - I'm a big fan of the book the Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It's really all about how you actually have the power to get your kids to do what you need them to do with, really, just your will alone.
> 
> ...


This is essentially what I do with my 9 month old (with far less words at this stage, however)...a typical diaper change will consist of me taking her to have her diaper change, her melting down and crying, me patting her and telling her I know she doesn't like diaper changes, but she'll feel better afterwards, and then a diaper change.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> This what confuses me. This seems not ideal to me. I still wonder if I am missing something.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lilblueberry*
> 
> I totally agree. I know this thread is abt time outs, but this has gotten interesting. Being able to receive discipline or correction without holding a grudge is a characteristic I WANT my dd to have. It's a part of life!


I totally agree with these posts that being able to receive correction is SUCH a huge part of life...it's definitely a trait I not only want my dd to have but to embrace.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Skelly2011*
> 
> Jumping back into this discussion. Im seeing the words "shame" and "withholding love" popping up an awful lot here, and I'm extremely curious where any of you are getting this from? Has anyone even read the responses from those of us who use time outs?
> 
> ...


I'm wondering this same thing. I've read all of the posts on this thread...it doesn't sound like ANYONE does a time out like this. It's more of a cool off, let's take some space and breathe and calm down. My daughter is only 9 months old right now so I put *myself* in time out...I'll give her to her daddy and take a quick walk, or just go to another room for a few minutes and calm down...it seems totally healthy and seems like a good thing to teach my children. If there were ever a situation where my love is what would remedy the problem, then sure, I would give my child the love they are asking for. But if we just need some space, I don't consider that withholding my love. I think people are picturing some kind of very strict, super nanny, "Sit here for x minutes until you can tell me why what you did was wrong" sort of thing, and it doesn't sound like that's the method anyone here is utilizing.

Also, I had timeouts as a child (I was also spanked...I much preferred time outs) and NEVER felt like love was being withheld from me. I'm an introvert, I need some space sometimes to calm down.


----------



## MamadeRumi (Aug 5, 2012)

Reading through this thread, I'm wondering if a lot of the differences in opinions about time outs as practiced here are the differences between introverts and extroverts. Introverts may love being with people at times, but they draw their energy from time alone. Extroverts may love being alone at times, but they draw their energy from being with people. Maybe to an extrovert being sent away from the people from whom one draws energy seems like a withdrawal of love, while to an introvert, a few minutes alone to catch one's breath and get some energy from being away from a hectic situation seems like, "ahhh, that was just what I needed." Right now I use time outs for myself, when I need a moment away from the situation, but as I've already said, I like to think that I'm modelling for my son a method of handling a stressful situation. You can step away, collect yourself, and come back ready to engage more productively. If he turns out to be an introvert like his parents, that will be a useful skill. If he turns out to be the extrovert in the family, he'll grow up with saner, healthier parents because they knew when they needed a few minutes alone to recharge. In neither case will my love for him ever be withdrawn, just my physical presence for a few minutes.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I think there's a big difference between really allowing a breather and enforcing isolation as a punishment. That's where most of the disagreement about whether this is too harsh is for most of us. My son, when he was small, could ask for time to collect himself--and did. It was awesome! I found myself inspired by his emotional intelligence. He was very good at learning how to calm down. I can see what some of us are calling "time out" as part of that. Once, when he was just four, he told me that he wanted to sit on the couch by himself and cry until he stopped being mad. Once he said "I want to sit in your lap, but don't hug me, and I'll calm down."

I also asked for a time out for myself a few times in those tumultuous years.

Where I think I really disagree with several people here is about the rolling with a little unfairness.

Yes, life is unfair. People are unjust. They are biased. I understand that. I do not in any way want my kid to learn to deal with a little unfairness. Look at the society in which we live. It's not a little unfair. It's HUGELY unfair. We get through our lives pretending it's not that bad. Most of us are in the United States, the country with the highest GDP and the most people in prison of any country in the world (per capita and as an absolute number and as a percentage of prisoners in the world.) We have a decreasing life expectancy and a rising infant mortality rate. These aren't unfairnesses randomly distributed in society, luck of the draw, too bad so sad. They are based on racial bias, sexism, class bias, xenophobia, and a ton of socially tolerated violence.

That's unfairness to others. What about unfairness to you, as an individual? Have you learned to assert yourself, to get what you need? Or do you suck it up, suck it up, suck it up, life is not fair, stop complaining? How's that working out?

I don't want to say that punishment is never helpful. Sometimes punishment can help a child feel like he has a means to get atonement, to make up for doing wrong. But this "life is unfair, roll with it" thing is the incredibly destructive. We're on their side in this world. We're a team. They are going to inherit this planet. That has to be behind every decision we make.


----------



## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

My only concern with "time-outs" is that the child is not getting a chance to express themselves. At least, that's what it felt like being sent to my room as a child-- seething with anger, not getting to tell my side of the story. But this is of course much different than taking a few moments to cool off.

If the child is invited to express his/her feelings after regaining some composure, then it sounds good, especially for introverted children.

I agree there is definitely a semantics problem happening where "time-out" can suggest the whole isolation thing, when really it sounds like most here are doing more of a "cool-off."

So far I haven't had to use t-o on my dd but I certainly have for myself, in terms of cooling off. I've learned to stay with her when she's freaking out to help her get to the root, and offer alternatives. The times I've tried to leave her on her own she goes hysterical. And she is definitely an extrovert.

Different for every kid/family?


----------



## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

Oh and yes captain optimism, I agree we need to acknowledge unfairness and talk about it-- otherwise one just rests on one's privilege, or, takes it on the chin every time. Neither works. We all need to speak up when we see it or it won't change.


----------



## Jane-Ellen (Sep 4, 2011)

I found that time outs don't always fit the child. It was the worst thing you could do to my highly relational and social daughter. In fact, it was borderline abusive. And more often than not I think I was the one in need of a time out so that I could recalibrate and let go my own reactions. I guess over time I came to rarely use this strategy. There was more to be gained by listening in to what the real issue(s) was and addressing that.


----------



## FLmomof1/1ontheway (Apr 25, 2007)

I haven't had a chance to read over all the posts but when I saw this on FB the other day it got to me. I'm a crunchy mama always have been but seem to stray from the bunch when it comes to discipline. Maybe my up bringing? Maybe my observation of kids that get no discipline or "gentle" discipline. After my father died when I was 8 I had NO discipline (or even supervision for that matter). I was a terror and life was hard for me because of it. I never had rules. I never got in trouble. It was great when I was a kid and teen, but when I got older it hurt me. I couldn't understand why my mother had let me run wild and make so many mistakes. I concluded that she didn't care or love me. I'm sure she did/does but then why? I think my mother failed me big time and I wish she would of set boundaries and rules for me.

Everywhere I go I see kids acting up and their parents aren't even near them or don't even care. It drives me crazy! I think it raises monsters who don't respect themselves or anyone else for that matter. I've been seeing on the news teens KILLING people out of boredom. Do you think these kids have a parent involved in their lives and disciplining them? NO! I had a friend that I had to end a friendship over because her kids were wild. She believes in gentle discipline. Never yells at her kids, never puts them in timeout, never punishes them in anyway. She just talks- talks about their behavior- talks about their feelings and everyone else's feelings. The kids don't listen or care!!!! They have no respect for their mother or anyone else. Her 7 year old spits in her 5 year olds face and she does nothing about it.

Which brings me to timeouts. If you think timeouts are bad then how are you going to make a point to a small child that the way they are acting is unacceptable? Talk? Explain? Reason with? Is a 3 year old going to really understand/care/listen as your explaining to him why he can't bite his sister because she took his toy? Or is he going to get the point -OK Mommy is mad! I did something I should never do (bite my sister) and now I have to stop playing because I did something bad and sit here and think/process that what I did was not OK for me to do again- They are being told why they are sitting there and they told again, then apologizing for their actions. And YES I believe even a 3 year old should be responsible for THEIR actions. We should teach small children self control. We should teach small children to be responsible for their actions and how they affect others. When would we start otherwise? At 16 when there beating a homeless man for fun?


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Fillyjonk, I didn't mean to suggest that YOU ever hit your kids! What you said about whirling out-of-control behavior led me to think about how my parents handled it and how that relates to the discussion--but I wasn't thinking you handle it the way my parents did.

Speaking of childhood memories, when I was a preschooler my mom used to have me "sit in the corner until the timer rings" for some infractions, usually hitting my brother who is 2 1/2 years younger. I know she intended me to "think about what you've done and why it was wrong" but I would do that only for about the first 30 seconds. The rest of the time was just sort of peaceful. I am NOT an introvert (though MamadeRumi's theory is interesting) but it's hard for me to be around a specific person who is bugging me. I was 9 or 10 before my parents designated any of my space or stuff as off-limits to my brother, so we often had conflicts where he would bother me or mess with my stuff, I'd try to get him to stop using increasing forcefulness, and when I finally made him cry then a parent would intervene and I would get in trouble. Being sent to the corner was kind of a relief, though, because I was finally in a place where they wouldn't let him bug me!!! I don't recall ever asking to be sent to the corner, and we didn't use the term "time out", but one of my approaches to getting my brother to quit was to take myself or my stuff to another room--sometimes it worked. It wasn't that I wanted to be alone--I didn't; I felt lonely much of the time--but that I didn't want to be with him when he was bugging me.

FLmomof1, I'm confused about why you think talking doesn't work, when your explanation of why time-out works hinges on "being told why they are sitting there." I feel that time-out is sometimes necessary for the child to be ready to listen and/or for the parent to be ready to explain without ranting and raving, but if both parties are ready to talk about it without a time out, talking still can be effective. I work in crime research, and the strongest correlation between disciplinary methods and criminal activity is that people who are spanked frequently are MORE likely to engage in violent crime; there's no clear indication that strict discipline of any kind (like verbal scoldings, having lots of rules, imposing strong consequences) has any effect on criminal activity. General neglect of a child is correlated with that child becoming a criminal, but there's a lot more to neglect than just not bothering to discipline, and I'd bet the effect on the child's reasoning has a lot more to do with what his parents allowed to happen TO him than with what they allowed him to do.


----------



## ssantos (Oct 22, 2007)

FLmomofl,


----------



## MomOv2 (Jan 15, 2013)

i think time outs are useful for the parent. When I can't think and act in a calm, positive fashion to what is happening with my kids, I need a time out to recharge.

What doesn't work with time outs is that they don't work. They might contain a situation in a moment, but they don't foster long term solutions. They don't help kids change behavior. I have seen children stop crying or tantrumming because their desire to connect with mom and dad is so great that they hold in the feelings, and in my experience those just come out sideways later. The sister gets pushed, the meal refused, the willingness to clean up gone. The child holds in the emotional discomfort they feel instead of releasing it.

I'd suggest that a fresh way of looking at children's off-track behavior is in order. Children want to get along, to cooperate, to share, to connect with friends and family. This is inborn. Hard behaviors cover up the basic nature of children (and adults) concealing this inherent goodness. I'm not talking pollyanna here, think about babies. Their nature is to connect, play, share. We don't lose this, instead it becomes covered up by hard experiences and feelings left unshed.

So children when they lose control of their emotions as cries, tantrums, and even hitting, they are showing us where it is hard for them. If we change our approach to their behavior, by listening to them, we foster connection. Listening doesn't mean passive acceptance of behavior that is hurtful to others, a child who is hitting needs to be kept from hitting others, but instead of isolating them in a time-out, one could listen as they cry about how mad and afraid they are. A child who is showing homework frustration through tears can be listened to and allowed to release the frustration and once complete will resume the same activity with a positive attitude. The gift of the loving attention of an adult to a child that is expressing emotion actually allows the child to work through the hurt and come out the other side with changed behavior. Behavior returns to show the child's innate goodness.

This is one mamma's opinion.


----------



## winter singer (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MomOv2*
> 
> i think time outs are useful for the parent. When I can't think and act in a calm, positive fashion to what is happening with my kids, I need a time out to recharge.
> 
> ...


----------



## gardeningkate (May 1, 2008)

I have found that the balance between respecting a child's expression of their anger/frustration and another child's right not to be the punching bag for that frustration is tricky. I notice that many parenting books that focus on connecting and empathy and respect don't seem to have examples of what to do when a boy hits his little brother because I didn't let him have what he wanted. I have 4 boys, and lately with the older one who has quick to get angry I have been removing him from his brothers as he is behaving in a way that causes them upset and harm, and making him come along with whatever I am doing, he can sit and be sullen but he has to sit with me. It is more of a time in.
I find it hard to get appropriate words for small people, but my fundamental thoughts on this are that to be a member of a family is a very special thing, everyone has the right to feel safe, valued and loved but also the responsiblity to behave in a way that facilitates these values, not in a way that undermines the cohesion of the family. I also remind my older boys that my role as mother/homemaker is to run the household in a way that meets everyones needs (not always their wants) and there are times when they just have to do as I have said in order for this to happen. I can't run a household if I meet rebellion at every turn, if I have delegated appropriate tasks only to find they are not done, and if I spend a lot of time picking up instead of getting things done. For example I explained the other day that one of my tasks is to do the washing, dry and return it to its owners, it does not extend to searching under beds for dirty inside out clothes, if they didn't put their washing in the basket it probably won't get washed. Of course I help the little kids to put their washing in the right place, but my older kids run out of clean undies, which of course are all under the bed! Another example is that I consider one of my tasks to vaccuum and keep the floor clean, but that doesn't extend to picking up all the lego in order to get to the floor.
Anyway, I do remove a child who is hitting/bitting from a group, and keep them with me, which I suppose is a time out, I will keep them with me and offer no stimulation at all, for example if I am folding washing I sit them next to me and say quietly "you may not bite" and then continue with my work quietly (actually I keep some washing there for these situations, I have found folding washing keeps me calm and seems to calm a child as well" I don't talk to them/play/etc for a couple of minutes, during which time they are removed from the group. This only works on one child at a time of course, and it will never be a cure all, but it is useful to difuse situations.
In short, I think it would come under the category of time out, but I would call it more of a time in.


----------



## LeeNYC (Jan 7, 2012)

Such an interesting conversation. My DD is just shy of 2, so we really haven't had to confront this yet. However, we're giving some forethought to how we will handle misbehavior/non-cooperation.

Am reading Beth Grosshans' "Beyond Time Out", and I think a lot of her ideas and techniques will make sense for us. She talks about the dynamic of an Imbalance of Family Power and for parents to own up to behaviors that either intimidate kids into "behaving" or don't step up to the responsibility of making decisions and following through. Time out is not a punishment in this view - it's a technique for learning self control and respect and co-operation. There's no expectation that it's supposed to "make them think about what they did" or get them to apologize. (Those things may or may not come up later, depending on the situation and the people.) But she emphasizes parental firmness, quick follow-through, and a dispassionate approach. I think this will work in our family because DD is pretty easygoing (so far...), we don't get triggered by her behavior (again, so far...), our list of what's unacceptable is pretty short, we're willing to cop to what might be our problem rather than hers, and we all have a very strong attachment relationship.

I like hearing about how everyone makes decisions around this and what experiences you've had - thanks for an enlightening discussion!


----------



## bettyjones (Mar 5, 2009)

I never used time out until recently with my almost 5 yr old. I am a big fan of Alfie Kohn but did not find his parenting book very helpful. Most things can be worked out without time out- talking, distraction, waiting it out.

My big question is what to do when it is violence. That is when I am now using timeout. For example DD kicks her sister in the face. I need to comfort the injured child but can not do that if DD is continuing the assault. She needs to be removed thus a time out. So I can soothe her sister. I understand the the one doing the hurting needs comfort too but later when we are both calm. It is scary to be out of control. I feel like a time out is better than me saying hurtful things.

What do others do besides timeout when it involves hurting?


----------



## gglups (Aug 6, 2013)

I am surprised this even came up. I use time outs and I feel like they are a fantastic way of teaching kids that when things become to overwhelming that we have to resort to a tantrum or other toddler behaviour than it is natural to remove yourself from the situation and reflect on the action. 1 minute per year of age. I can't believe that it would ever even resort to holding a child down. In our house, my husband and i are the parents and since we are parenting we are in charge. My children are well adjusted and good kids at 2 and 3. My concern with this stream is that as an educator, I have seen those parents that do not have control over their kids, and those parents that don't learn to say no to kids, it does more harm in my opinion than good. Parents who let the children learn without a whole lot of boundaries and consequences. Just my two cents worth. Sometimes, I wonder if we overanaylyze absolutely simple elements of parenting and that over analyzing is leading to the current lost generation that the media speak so often of.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gglups*
> 
> I am surprised this even came up. I use time outs and I feel like they are a fantastic way of teaching kids that when things become to overwhelming that we have to resort to a tantrum or other toddler behaviour than it is natural to remove yourself from the situation and reflect on the action. 1 minute per year of age. I can't believe that it would ever even resort to holding a child down. In our house, my husband and i are the parents and since we are parenting we are in charge. My children are well adjusted and good kids at 2 and 3. My concern with this stream is that as an educator, I have seen those parents that do not have control over their kids, and those parents that don't learn to say no to kids, it does more harm in my opinion than good. Parents who let the children learn without a whole lot of boundaries and consequences. Just my two cents worth. Sometimes, I wonder if we overanaylyze absolutely simple elements of parenting and that over analyzing is leading to the current lost generation that the media speak so often of.


I feel like that's the same message I have gotten from the educators in my life, as well. My daughter is an only, we use time outs, she is very well behaved, "on the purple" at school almost daily which is better than the best behavior on the red light/ green light behavior chart, purple is above green. She is friendly, out going and secure, she literally gets complimented on her confidence and I have had people mention her obvious security. I do find it hard to relate to the negative side to how we handle things.


----------



## babelsgp (Mar 6, 2006)

I have bigger kids now, and many of you are talking about very little kids. Around here, time-outs weren't useful in fact they seemed to distract away from the message we wanted to convey. First, I like to watch the kids and see what is going on, sometimes a hit occurs because someone has taken a toy, I can prevent a hit by watching and preventing the toy from being taken, I can make sure sharing is happening. (I was very near and involved during toddlerhood) If hitting, it worked best to say firmly, "NO, that hurts," or "NO, ouch!" as I held the hitting hand. There are usually reasons why kids are acting the way they are, and experimenting with hurting someone else is actually one reason, I've even seen my 15 month son bite himself a few times each time a bit harder, as he looked at his arm. I will also move a kid to a different area of the playing area, if the "no" is unheeded.

I question my own reasons for what I am demanding of them, sometimes I am being unrealistic, and really it isn't hurting any one or anything, it's just some arbitrary I don't want you doing that right now. So if this is the case, I either reset my threshold, or I leave.

At 3, if we visited friends, we asked permission from the child to be able to play with their toys, and some toys were off limits and others the child would be delighted they were asked permission. This really helped several situations. With our kids some toys are communal and others are personal, those special toys are respected and I show their respect by having kids ask for permission.

The teeth brushing, by the time I was facing this, my kids had realized it was time for bed and they weren't ready for the day to be over. It wasn't the teeth brushing, so I addressed things differently, whether we brushed teeth and played a little more, and then got ready for bed, or if I read a story first. I've learned that having kids is about being flexible, because they are changing so incredibly fast. I've also realized childhood is so short, I guess I'm allowing myself to enjoy it more, rather than trying to force my adultness. I used to have bed times and I'd do bedtime ritual, kiss, and leave, and now I've let go and decided I will lay down with them as they drift off, and it's nice for all of us. I don't every single night, but most of the time.

When kids are heated, there are reasons. I will ask if they need some time alone, if they are hungry, bathroom etc. To address the physical, so so so many times my kids would be acting nuts when they had to pee and wouldn't go because they were playing.

My husband is nuts and with our older kids when they are fighting, he'll walk in with two wooden swords and ask if they want a duel. This usually resets the situation and the girls say no, that they love each other and then they explain what is going on. This has backfired when he tried this with our 3 year old niece, she was ready to hack someone, which gives an idea on how different a 3 year old feels about inflicting pain vs a 5 and 7 year old.

I ask thoughtful questions, and some not so thoughtful, for instance when one kid is purposefully bothering the other, I ask the annoying one "if she begins to hit you, are you going to like it? Because I think that's how much you are annoying her." I mean come on a person can only take so much, either stop or suffer the consequences. I can't make her stop, but I can ask her to think about her actions. And when we are stuck in the car, what else do I have in my parenting toolkit? I have distractions, I have tablets, I have music, and I have oral games, I certainly do not have a time-out, or removal.

I also talk to my kids like they are capable, respectable people.

Time-outs may work for one kid and not another, but I certainly wouldn't advise a time-out for every battle you face. I don't always need time away from people, sometimes I need food.


----------



## babelsgp (Mar 6, 2006)

Bettyjones one day my eldest sprayed her sister with perfume in the face. We were at my mother's. I don't own spray perfume and I don't think my eldest meant to spray her in the face. But, my mother reacted by telling my eldest," I don't want you around me right now, I don't like being around mean people." And for a long time that day she wouldn't be around her, and repeated the phrase. This was a bit much for me, because I really didn't think it was on purpose, so I threw the scenario past some other mothers, and I was shocked with the "your mom was right, why would she want to be around someone being mean." Over time, this message, from someone with happy grown children, who love their mother, and she is someone I respect, has settled in. No one wants to be around mean actions, or mean people. My daughter is not mean, but her actions can be. (though I still believe that incident was an accident and she knows I think it was)

When I have faced them being really mean, and I don't know what happened, I do ask the perp to go away for a minute. I also need to find out what happened, console the hurt. And now, I see nothing wrong with telling someone that I don't want them around right now while they are being mean, in fact I will say, "go eat if you need to eat, go pee if you need to pee, go be in your room if you need to be alone, but I don't want to be around you while you are being mean, come back when you are feeling better and we can solve this problem." And at 5 I feel like they can talk to me after and give me an alternative solution to kicking, sometimes they can't so I offer solutions. I do not tolerate mean behavior. (I also changed the wording from my mother's I don't like being around a mean person, to being around you while you are being mean, because I don't want them to think they are actually mean people).

If this is becoming an increased issue in the house, how much time is the perp getting one on one with you? My eldest was less tolerant, less sharing, annoying, and mean to her sister for a while, and all it really ended up being was jealousy because she felt her sister was getting more momma-time, so she took it out on her. I don't know if she was conscience of how/why she was treating her sister, but when it finally dawned on me and I asked if she was needing "momma-time," she told me she wasn't ever getting any. Now I work on getting alone time with her every day, and things are running more smooth.


----------



## Skelly2011 (Sep 25, 2012)

Babelsgp, I agree with quite a lot of your points. I use time outs and they work for us. However I have to admit I have no idea how my feelings will change as the kids grow. Im a rookie, kids are only 3.5 y/o and 4.5 m/o. I also agree that not every situation can be bettered by giving the child some space. As with all matters of discipline or conflict resolution it depends on every individual parent child dynamic.

In my case, my three year old is a firecracker who needs a lot of decompression time. Sammy met the world screaming and her energy level hasn't dipped since. Even so, I recognize it would be wrong for me to just jump immediately to time out. She gets one opportunity to stop whatever it is and talk it out, then another, then she gets asked if she needs a time out. About half the time she'll say yes, the other half it ends up being a more tangible issue that we then correct. If she were a child that needed a lot of sleep I might say "do you need a nap?" instead, but she's not, she's a child that's easily overstimulated and responds really well to a little quiet time so I ask her if that's what she needs.

Time outs aren't (or shouldn't be) a catch-all 'you've been bad so now you have to leave' situation. I am the type of person who requires cool off time to get my head in check, and so is my daughter. If that's your child's personality I think time outs are a valuable asset.

I just don't think being respectful towards your children and working to resolve the issue with them is necessarily incompatible with time outs.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I've listed a couple of interesting articles about child discipline in Japan. My kids are part Japanese and we use these types of parenting techniques. We use more of a 'sharing-discipline' rather than an authoritarian one. A lot of home life is geared towards keeping harmony within the family. I'm not sure if the articles really articulate what is going on though. Just because there seem to be no rules or punishment, does not mean theat there is no discipline or guidance from parents. I think it is almost the opposite...parents (usually mothers) anticipated their children's needs to the point where there aren't any issues. In return, the children learn to accept guidance from their parents and contribute to family harmony at an early age.

A side note... we took the kids to Japan this last summer to see relatives, and noted that most Japanese kids were very well behaved. I never witnessed a parent yelling at a child, let alone spankings or time-outs (this included trips to the zoo and disneyland). This is in stark contrast to discipline styles I have seen here in the states.

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2006/jun/discipline062006.html

http://www.childresearch.net/papers/parenting/2012_03.html


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Getting corrected in school should not be a drama or devastating or crushing, it's just a fact of life. We all make mistakes and in school it's the teachers job to you correct you when you do.


I agree. I think that kids need to learn to handle negative feedback. It just is what it is, and we all get it from time to time. We all need to have a sense of self that goes beyond feeling like we have to be perfect all the time or having a desperate need to have everyone's approval all the time. (neither of which show a healthy sense of self).

I also hope for my children to develop *resilience*. Sometimes stuff happens that you don't want to have happen, and you go on. It's best to just let it go when you go on.









When my kids were little, we seldom used time outs. I opted for natural and logical consequences as much as possible, but sometimes timeouts were the logical consequence. I ended up using them most often for when my kids were fighting with each other. It's not withhold love to let a child know when their behavior is unacceptable. *Unconditional love is the basis of all true discipline.* But discipline is still necessary, and as a parent it is my job to draw the boundary and let the kids know when they've crossed it. They still know that I love them, even though I didn't let them pommel each other with toys or force them to hug each other.


----------



## gglups (Aug 6, 2013)

I finally figured out why this stream is bugging me. Most of the conversation about time out vs. not using time outs are absolutes. We use time out or we don't. I agree with one mom here who spoke to using what works for each child. What triggered my response originally was the implication that "time outs can be very authoritarian". I have seen very competent adults with great kids deal with discipline issues all differently. I have learned most of it is in the delivery. For us a time out is a time to reflect on the behaviour and usually to stop a melt down from 1 or both kids from happening. Than we re group and discuss and always end in hugs and kisses along with the kids hugging and kissing. For us, instead of always finding absolutes in books, we look to our mentors in our lives with good adult or teen children and discuss from them in an authentic real world setting what they did to raise kids with behaviours that we would love to have our kids emulate.

The question "what is wrong with time outs? " worries me in a way, because it makes me think...no one I didn't know, and kids I have never met could change my mind on how I parent and discipline my kids. I guess I just see so many lost children with too many behaviour problems in all socio economic levels, probably leads my resistance to advice from the internet.


----------



## CupOfJoe (May 20, 2013)

Working as a nanny I've sometimes found -- especially with older children (6+) -- that the time-out works best when it is for me! So what I say to the child is, "I really don't like how you're behaving right now and it's making me upset so I need to take some time by myself to cool-down." and then I go away and sit quietly in another room for a bit. So without "punishing" the child I'm able to show that there are consequences for their actions and also that sometimes it's good to remove yourself from a situation in order to recenter.


----------



## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *redheather*
> 
> My only concern with "time-outs" is that the child is not getting a chance to express themselves. At least, that's what it felt like being sent to my room as a child-- seething with anger, not getting to tell my side of the story. But this is of course much different than taking a few moments to cool off.


I will say that in my family and with older kids, this is not how it has worked.

Ex: Several of us are in the living room - perhaps watching tv. One person is in a very difficult mood - making snarky comments, picky fights, etc. The child will be given numnerous chances to talk about what is bugging him or her, and to change the behaviour - but at some point, if the behaviour does not change, yeah, I am kicking them out of the room. Your bad attitude does not give you the right to poison the atmosphere in a room, or continually interupt what others are doing. It is never a timed thing (I can't remebger when I stopped doing timed "time outs" perhaps when the kids are around 7 or 8?) , it is always a "you can rejoin us when you feel you can do so without disruptive/difficult behaviour."


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the reason that 'time-outs' bother me is that they do foster a sense of authoritarianism. Children who experience this paradigm of discipline will learn to base their actions of fear of consequences, rather than an intrinsic desire to do the right thing. I think kids in school who are judging their actions based on a fear response of some subjective punishment (sitting out of recess is what my kid's school uses...a form of 'time-outs) aren't focusing on school work. It is definately appropriate and necessary to correct children, and when it is done kindly, it usually works very well. I don't believe 'time-outs' are necessary.

And yes...when I suggest my children hug when they aren't getting along, it does work. Every time.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CupOfJoe*
> 
> Working as a nanny I've sometimes found -- especially with older children (6+) -- that the time-out works best when it is for me! So what I say to the child is, "I really don't like how you're behaving right now and it's making me upset so I need to take some time by myself to cool-down." and then I go away and sit quietly in another room for a bit. So without "punishing" the child I'm able to show that there are consequences for their actions and also that sometimes it's good to remove yourself from a situation in order to recenter.


Who are these 6/7/8 year old children who don't behave well when you ask them to?? At that age, I would expect children who are asked to be quiet/settle down to do so without a punitive intervention. I run a whole troop of girl scouts in that age range and they have no problems with behavior. We use the girl scout sign to signify when it is time to be quiet and listen to someone in the group. The girls occasionally need reminders, but nothing more than that.


----------



## Tiffa (Mar 24, 2013)

I can see both sides of the argument, but personally I don't think there is anything wrong with time outs. As a grown woman I always give myself a time-out when I am angry or upset, and then go back to the problem and deal with it when I am calm enough to do so. I would think as long as you deal with the problem (have a little discussion when they/you have cooled off) it's very healthy. I do like the idea of giving them something to work on while in time out. Like a puzzle or something.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having a healthy fear of negative consequences. Our society is having more and more problems with people who won't take responsibility for their actions and face negative consequences. Our choices have an affect on our own lives as well as those around us, and I don't think it's bad for kids to learn that. On the positive side of that, they can also learn the good behavior breeds positive consequences. People who do good are happier people. Children are smart and with the right guidance they will learn that through discovering consequences.

Also I think different things work for different people. So maybe time out is right for some families and not for others?


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't believe that this:

Our choices have an affect on our own lives as well as those around us, and I don't think it's bad for kids to learn that

is dependent on this:

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having a healthy fear of negative consequences. ;

This is leftover from our Authoritarian/Puritan ancestors, and I believe most Americans don't know any other way...


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *gglups* 


> The question "what is wrong with time outs? " worries me in a way, because it makes me think...no one I didn't know, and kids I have never met could change my mind on how I parent and discipline my kids. I guess I just see so many lost children with too many behaviour problems in all socio economic levels, probably leads my resistance to advice from the internet.


I think that discussing things like this on the internet has helped me really think through what I do and why I do it. At times, when I really examine myself, I've changed. At other times, I've become more convinced that I was always right!










But either way, slowing down and becoming more conscience of my choices and views has made me a more mindful parent. I think that all of our kids are best off when we are parenting mindfully, even if the details of what that looks like is different.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> Children who experience this paradigm of discipline will learn to base their actions of fear of consequences, rather than an intrinsic desire to do the right thing. I think kids in school who are judging their actions based on a fear response of some subjective punishment (sitting out of recess is what my kid's school uses...a form of 'time-outs) aren't focusing on school work. It is definately appropriate and necessary to correct children, and when it is done kindly, it usually works very well. I don't believe 'time-outs' are necessary.


I think that to view a person's motivations in strict terms of being either intrinsically motivated OR being fear based is an over simplification. All of us have a mix. I'm a nice person who tries hard to be kind, but the only reason I follow the speed limit is because I find speeding tickets expensive. It is a fear based motivation, not an intrinsic one. If I hadn't been punished (several times) for going at speeds I think are perfectly safe, I wouldn't bother to follow the speed limit. None the less, most of my life is about kind to others (I work with special needs kids).

You are doing what works for your kids, which is great. No one here is arguing that you *should* have time outs just for the sake of it. The thing is, you are generalizing from that what you do with your own kids at home is what *should* work for all kids in all situations. That's a pretty big leap, and one that just isn't true.

I have the power to take kids recess away or have other consequences happen. I don't like to do it, and I ALWAYS warn a child. My process, which is pretty standard in my school:

1. Let them know that their current behavior isn't allowed, explaining why if they seem confused. Give them a chance to correct their behavior.

2. If the behavior continues, warn them that if the behavior continues, X consequence will happen. Give them a change to correct their behavior.

3. If the behavior continues, make the consequence happen.

So, after all that, I don't see it so much as I took their recess away, but that they really just couldn't be bothered to behave for the right reasons, hopefully they will be more motivated to the next time.

The primary reasons I've taken recess away was for being physically aggressive with another student or refusing to clean up after themselves in the cafeteria (if you throw trash or food on the floor and refuse to clean it up, you miss your recess and have to help clean the cafeteria instead). These aren't about "not focusing on school work", rather they are about behaviors and character. All the kids deserve to be in a school where they are safe and things aren't a trashy pit.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2006/jun/discipline062006.html

http://www.childresearch.net/papers/parenting/2012_03.html

Parenting discipline techniques in Japan center around practicing correct behaviors, empathy, and ensuring group harmony. There is little or no punishment involved. It works very well. I think its just hard for a lot of Americans to envision because they have no framework for it and have never seen it modeled. I wish I could do a better job or articulating this technique..


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bettyjones*
> 
> I never used time out until recently with my almost 5 yr old. I am a big fan of Alfie Kohn but did not find his parenting book very helpful. Most things can be worked out without time out- talking, distraction, waiting it out.
> 
> ...


Well, obviously a time out is preferable to allowing violence to continue. You can't parent non-violently and allow the children to hit each other (or you!) If there is violence, you need a non-violent way to stop it. If that's a time-out, so be it.

You might be put in the unenviable position of managing their conflicts. If the little sister is bugging the big sister to provoke an emotional reaction (I was a big sister, can you tell?) you need to help the big sister before it gets to the point of hitting or kicking. Do you want her to leave the room when her sister is being a pain? Are you willing to stop the little sister from following her around? Setting a timer to keep them out of each other's hair, giving them each a different activity to do until they can chill out--as far as I'm concerned, anything that keeps that dynamic in check is good.

This is one you might have to talk through. I know people hate solutions that involve discussing it with the kid, but that's probably what you have to do. Help each one come up with strategies to leave a conflict. Don't side with the smaller one automatically and assume that the bigger one is just a violent person. They are both trying to manage an important set of relationships--with each other, and with you.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

A good article on the 'cons' of time-outs...

http://www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/timeouts

" 1. Timeouts make kids see themselves as bad people. You confirm what she suspected - she is a bad person. Not only does this lower self esteem, it creates bad behavior, because people who feel bad about themselves behave badly.
2. Timeouts don't help kids learn emotional regulation.
3. Timeout work through fear, as a symbolic abandonment.
4. Instead of reaffirming your relationship with your child so she WANTS to please you, timeouts fuel power struggles.
5. Timeouts, like all punishment, keep us from partnering with our child to find solutions since we're making the problem all theirs.
And if you're using them to deal with your kids' meltdown, that's actually destructive, as I mentioned, because you're triggering your child's abandonment panic.

If you want to teach your child emotional self-management, that's only effective before a meltdown starts. When you see the warning signs, take your child to a "Time IN." This signals to your child that you understand she's got some big emotions going on and you're right there with her. If she's just a bit wound-up and wants to snuggle or even read a book, fine. If she's ready for a melt-down, you're there to help. Just let her know you're there and she's safe.

Parents who use timeouts are often shocked to learn that there are families who never hit, never use timeouts, and rarely raise their voices to their children. But you shouldn't need to use these methods of discipline, and if you're using them now, you'll probably be quite relieved to hear that you can wean yourself away from them. "


----------



## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A good article on the 'cons' of time-outs...
> 
> ...


I think being against time-outs across the board is over the top.

I don't think most kids are so inherently fragile that they cannot be away from their family for a few minutes as a consequence for behaviour they have chosen.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Why is this 'over the top'? Also, contrary to popular belief, I think that kids who aren't punished this way tend to be much less fragile and secure in their place in the world.

I punished my oldest DD. Heck, I even spanked her. It took a while for me to realize that this was not effective and not the relationship I wanted with my children. Once I started down the path of more gentle discipline/no punishments, her behavior improved immensly. I think its ok to re-examine and re-adjust parenting techniques as parents learn and grow.


----------



## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A good article on the 'cons' of time-outs...
> 
> ...


Yes, what's in bold. Anything that builds relationship is what I hope for. There is always a reason, especially in young ones, behind any given behavior.

I think there are different kinds of time-outs, from what I've been reading. Removal from the community is the one I dislike so much. Of course we have to be socialized and learn how to get along despite feelings of anger etc., but I just feel so strongly that we also need to learn how to appropriately express our feelings or they go underground and come out twisted later. Having the community model different ways to do this just has to be better than sitting by oneself feeling wrong, bad, and at the worst unwanted. Keeping the child in the ring offers a chance to teach them, to see their effects. I'm really not sure how much is being learned, or if it's helpful, by oneself.

Teens? Well, I'm not there yet. I'm hoping to lay the groundwork now. I can only say I think would have been more likely to talk to my parents if they'd been talking to me from an earlier age. The channel just wasn't there by then. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

kathymuggle so agree with everything you said.

Honestly abandonment panic? For real? I don't mean in little kids-say under 6. But for older kids. "Symbolic abandonment?" Seeing themselves as "bad people"?. In all honestly, I think if a kid is reacting like that, at 6+. to a simple request to go away and stop being a pain, then personally I'd be looking at whether there might be a deeper issue.

YK, IME its right that kids play up and are noisy and annoying at really bad times. That's kind of their job. To my mind its not their job to be super obedient. I don't judge my sucess as a parent by how quiet my kids are. And I am SURE that if I gave my kids a choice between 24/7 quietness and gentleness and indoor voices, vs our general football stadium noise levels with me sometimes saying, "look, if you can't be quiet you're going to have to go to your room til I have an actual cup of coffee in my hands", they'd choose the latter, no doubt at all.

"Who are these 6/7/8 year old children who don't behave well when you ask them to?? "

I'm not interested in raising kids who are about groupthink and pleasing others.Who do what they are told without ever annoyingly arguing back at the worst possible time and embarassing me. That's not my goal and its not how I judge my parenting sucess. I want to raise emotionally literate kids who care about others but I'm not especially interested in or expecting high levels of compliance at age 6/7/8. My girls Scout groups are each 30 rambunctious girls, some with some additional needs and behavioural issues, and they are wonderful, lively, if sometimes slightly deafening places. Woudln't have it any other way. But thinking for yourself is pretty important to me, I'd take that over obedience any day. So much more fun.

.Parenting isn't one size fits all and nor should it be.We all want different things for our kids and that is how it should be.

And yk, my kids never seem to stop talking. They are certainly not afraid to share feelings.

One thing that comes up again and again. this notion that every "bad" action by a kid has a reason and that reason must be explored. The thing is for me, your kid gets to 8 or 10 and sometimes the reasons are not very good. Sometimes they hit their sister because she wouldn't pass the sausages. Sometimes they are just being unspeakably naughty. I think if you push deep enough there will always be an unmet need in all of us. But I also think its fair to have an expectation for our kids that they control themselves.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1387563/is-punishment-ever-necessary


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

Also, just went back through the thread

@cap'n optimism. " I do not in any way want my kid to learn to deal with a little unfairness. Look at the society in which we live. It's not a little unfair. It's HUGELY unfair. We get through our lives pretending it's not that bad. Most of us are in the United States, the country with the highest GDP and the most people in prison of any country in the world (per capita and as an absolute number and as a percentage of prisoners in the world.) We have a decreasing life expectancy and a rising infant mortality rate. These aren't unfairnesses randomly distributed in society, luck of the draw, too bad so sad. They are based on racial bias, sexism, class bias, xenophobia, and a ton of socially tolerated violence. "

Ok that's not a LITTLE unfair. That is VERY unfair. I expect my kids to speak up against this stuff. I've been involved in action against this stuff my entire life (well I'm in Europe but we still have our problems). I do not see how teaching my kids that they can deal with little things themselves, that its ok to feel upset or angry but they need to look at the other persons perspective and work out which battles to fight, in any way reduces their ability to fight this big stuff.

I know about fighting this and I know the cost of failing to pick your battles-both in terms of yourself and your own effectiveness. This stuff IS unfair. And that is why our kids need coping mechanisms for the small stuff, they need to know when to cope and when to fight.

Just to be clear. I am NOT about saying to kids, life is unfair, don't complain. I am about saying, here's when its worth fighting, here's when you must fight. And heres when, its worth taking a step back and looking at ther other persons perspective. Heres when you will end up worse off by fighting. He's when people are not trying to be mean, but rather are being clumsy. Its about perspective.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This is laughable to me! Oh my goodness, I don't even know what to say. At my daughter's school, which focuses on inclusion, there are kids with all varying levels of behavior and good grief, certainly there kids of all ages who can not or do not listen, take instructions well or do what's asked of them.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A good article on the 'cons' of time-outs...
> 
> ...


Says who? I mean, besides you and whoever you are quoting from that link that I am not following? People that agree with you might agree with that, but you can't just say it and it becomes truth. I don't actually agree with any of this, I don't feel bad or sad about the time outs. I am happy with my relationship with my little girl, she is great.


----------



## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CupOfJoe*
> 
> Working as a nanny I've sometimes found -- especially with older children (6+) -- that the time-out works best when it is for me! So what I say to the child is, "I really don't like how you're behaving right now and it's making me upset so I need to take some time by myself to cool-down." and then I go away and sit quietly in another room for a bit. So without "punishing" the child I'm able to show that there are consequences for their actions and also that sometimes it's good to remove yourself from a situation in order to recenter.


I do take a time out (can I have one for my age, pretty please, I have stuff to read&#8230;.







) when I am grumpy or spiraling. I think it is great to model taking a break when you need one.

If one of the kids is grumpy, I expect them to leave if it their behavior that is inappropriate. I am not going to be pushed out of a room or whatever when I am not the one who is engaging in (typically unrelenting) behavior.

So - I don't really love parents taking time -outs in lieu of children (unless they really need one as they themselves are grumpy), as I don't think it teaches kids that certain types of behavior is not okay.


----------



## Tiffa (Mar 24, 2013)

KSLaura - Excuse me, but I think it's pretty arrogant of you to assume that your way is the ONLY way, and that the other way is simply "leftover from our Authoritarian/Puritan ancestors".

I know very well that time out is not always effective, and not always right. I am actually very good at talking and listening to a child, and have dealt very successfully with a lot of conflict without ever inflicting any punishment. I am a good peacemaker, and hope my children will learn to be. I also know how to let a child know that I am serious and that they need to obey without punishing. I know how to head it off before it gets out of hand. Most of the time.

However. Sometimes they will not listen. Sometimes they will not talk to you. Sometimes they just WANT to REBEL. Sometimes they want to be angry, and they want you to be angry as well. And I don't know how old your children are, but for most older children or teenagers I doubt that hugging it out is going to work quite as well. Sometimes they just have to be removed from the situation. You should always give them the chance to correct their behavior, as well as to talk it out and express themselves. But when they choose to continue you have to find something else that will work.

I second the opinion that children aren't so fragile that a time out is going to damage them and make them think they aren't loved. I believe we over-think these things a little much sometimes. A couple of time outs are not going to hurt them.

I know how to think for myself. I know that some things don't work. And I know that my way is not the only way, and neither is yours. It sounds like you are a loving mother who is raising loving children. And that's great! But don't assume that you are the only one who knows what you're talking about. We are supposed to be sharing opinions here, not forcing them onto each other. You are suggesting that you have the only right way of doing things. I would think you would want to avoid that kind of thought, as it's what those Puritan ancestors thought as well.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> I know about fighting this and I know the cost of failing to pick your battles-both in terms of yourself and your own effectiveness. This stuff IS unfair. And that is why our kids need coping mechanisms for the small stuff, they need to know when to cope and when to fight.
> 
> Just to be clear. I am NOT about saying to kids, life is unfair, don't complain. I am about saying, here's when its worth fighting, here's when you must fight. And heres when, its worth taking a step back and looking at ther other persons perspective. Heres when you will end up worse off by fighting. He's when people are not trying to be mean, but rather are being clumsy. Its about perspective.


I was responding to previous posters who had the attitude that it was OK for their children to be punished unfairly, so that they would learn to cope with "a little unfairness."

What's weird is that, when I examine my attitudes about this, I don't think time out is always used as punishment.

I'm not even sure that punishment is always the wrong thing. I think in some situations, when a child understands that he or she has done something wrong, a punishment is easier than just sitting with the discomfort of being wrong. It's also better to use a non-violent punishment (I never call it a consequence, I think that's self-serving BS) than to allow the child to infringe on other people's right to peace.

Of course you hope you can create the conditions in your house so that it doesn't get to that point.

The problem for me is when we say, "Oh, well, it's simple, I'm the mom, I tell them what's good behavior, they behave, if they don't I punish them." I reject this. I think there is something wrong with the reward and punishment model as a mode of creating an ethical adult. When people complain that they weren't punished as children, I generally assume that they mean their parents didn't pay attention to them. I don't need punishment and reward to structure my attention. The kid doesn't need punishment or reward to know right from wrong. He's very smart.

My son went off to school and had to learn how to deal with a point system for his behavior. I still didn't use time outs or punishments at home. In a punishment and reward system, if he doesn't do his homework, he gets a punishment, and if he does, he gets a reward. But when I'm in charge, he has to do things because he's a person--the same things I have to do. There's one rule for personhood, no matter how old you are, and there's no carbon offset tax. You know? You gotta be a person, clean your space, treat people well. There's no punishment or reward involved in that. Teaching him to behave well my way didn't harm his ability to deal with the teacher's way at all. It was like a game. In real life, though, it's no game. You have to do the right thing whether or not there is a reward.

I don't believe in punishment, but I'm kind of a hard-ass anyway, and not only with children.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> I was responding to previous posters who had the attitude that it was OK for their children to be punished unfairly, so that they would learn to cope with "a little unfairness."


I didn't read anyone's response to mean that the punishments at school were unfair to begin with. I guess, at least, that's not at all what I believe.

I talk to my daughter about everything. If she tells me about a situation at school where a teacher has chastised her and she feels it was unfair we discuss it and I try to get to the bottom of it with her. But the bottom line is that I want her to follow the rules at school. Of course there are exceptions but for the most part I want her to behave well, take instruction, listen and learn. If she is being out of line it doesn't bother me if she gets in trouble, although this has never happened. She has never gotten at trouble in school. She has never been unfairly punished. She has been told to shush when she didn't think it was fault, she was asking someone to stop touching her hair and she got chastised. She didn't like getting shushed, but I don't expect the teacher to know whats going on in every situation with every child every minute of the day with 30 kids in the class. My dd moved on, no harm. That's ideal to me, the teacher wasn't 100% right, my dd wasn't 100% wrong and she accepted that she got in trouble for it any way with out letting it totally burst her bubble. Was it unfair that she got the shushing? Maybe, to some. Do I want her to be able to cope with stuff like that? Certainly.

#Like water on a ducks back, #all's well that ends well, #no worries


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

just deleted a load of stuff. I think it might be helpful to work out whether we actually disagree or not. I think we all agree that there is a line at which we intervene and I'd guess that line is in roughly the same place.

So, captain optimism (great name). What would you do in the situation described by Dauphinette? Ie-

"She has been told to shush when she didn't think it was fault, she was asking someone to stop touching her hair and she got chastised.".

To me its pretty clear from the context too that this wasn't a huge, humiliating thing. I'm guessing Dauphinette's daughter was asked to sit down and be quiet or something. I'm assuming she wasn't hauled in front of the class and made to do a dance of shame or anything.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> just deleted a load of stuff. I think it might be helpful to work out whether we actually disagree or not. I think we all agree that there is a line at which we intervene and I'd guess that line is in roughly the same place.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sure that sometimes teachers wind up scolding children unfairly. In this case, the child was sufficiently impressed with the unfairness of the situation that she told her mother about it. It was not something that she took to heart so much that she wasn't able to handle it, but at the same time, she noticed that the teacher got it wrong.

I don't see any reason why it's important for parents to use (non-violent, of course!) punishments at home to prepare the child for this experience. The important thing was for the child to be able to tell her mother that this happened. Because there was someone who cares about the child's behavior and believes in her, the child has someone who will hear her and can deal with the teacher being wrong.

I suppose that one or two time-outs at home wouldn't destroy the child's confidence that her mother will hear her, but on the other hand, there's no benefit to them in this situation either. I just don't think time-outs make children more resilient to unfairness, even if you use them unfairly as a practice! In a very limited role, they might be helpful for self-regulation, but this idea that accustoming themselves to mild punishments will help children develop resilience doesn't really seem logical to me. Isn't the point of attachment parenting that early attachment creates resilience? We don't make children practice discomfort in order to weather it better later.

(Except maybe piano practice, I am reminded of piano practice and other similar types of discipline--but that's not just suffering for its own sake. I hope.)


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

" I just don't think time-outs make children more resilient to unfairness, even if you use them unfairly as a practice! In a very limited role,"

I think that might be where the confusion is arising. I don't think anyone has suggested that time outs be used as a training tool to accustom kids to unfairness. And I certainly don't think anyone is suggesting arbitrary unfairness.

What has been said is something quite different, which is that time outs, when used as a crisis managment tool to give everyone some space and/or put a halt to behaviour, stop a situation escalating, and overall give everyone a chance to cool off, are unlikely to cause these feelings of abandonment and self loathing in a well adjusted kid. And so if a kid can't deal with being asked to either behave or leave the room, if that triggers feelings of fear and shame, then rather than seeing that as normal and enabling that, some of us would be a bit concerned and investigate further. Why would a kid feel abandoned and like a terrible bad person just because they were sent to the room with the Lego for ten minutes?

Incidentally, like i said, I think this would need investigation. Maybe they are having a hard time at school or not feeling well. I wouldn't be toughening them up by more sending them to their room.

I've said this before but the times when I would use something like a time out-ask a kid to leave the room-would pretty much all be about preventing damage to people, property, or to some extent, serious damage to feelings, and where the mood was too high for talking it out to be an option. My guess is that that is when its used by most of us. For a normally resilient kid of 6+ IME that isn't normally a problem and IME it solves the problems quickly and without a fuss. Everyone cools off and we go about our day.

There's no perfect way in parenting. Especially when you have several kids, you're pretty much failing a lot of the time, its just trying not to screw up too badly


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes, see, it was my impression that some people were asserting that a benefit of using time-outs as a punishment was to toughen up the child. If you read the thread, you will see that some posts are making a claim of that nature.

I do agree with those who think that the use of time-out as a punishment is something we should limit. It is a way of withdrawing positive approval. Obviously, most of us agree that in some situations, even as a punishment, it has utility and can be less destructive for the child than staying in a space where there is conflict. The title of the thread was "what's wrong with time-outs," and what's wrong with them is that they are a punishment, a "consequence" whose intended purpose is to instill shame. (At least, as they were originally constituted, back in the 1970s when we had to sit in the corner.)

We've all discussed how a break or a breather can be beneficial and not a punishment, and I don't think most parents here would say you should never impose a time-out in that sense. Opportunities to rest and regroup can be helpful to some children.

I am also not sure that punishment is always the worst thing. My child really likes the idea of rewards and punishments. It has always appealed to his love of arithmetic and fairness. I don't use them because the annoying, constant discussion method that everyone in the US deplores works very well with him. Also because he's an only child and I don't have the kind of behavior management emergencies that put a mom in a situation where she has to interrupt conflict between siblings immediately.

Also, I was punished a lot, both violently and non-violently, and I don't think it was helpful to me in childhood or as an adult. It certainly didn't make me flexible. People respond to unfairness by finding it unfair and stressful. The person who has to suck it up and cope is the parent, who has to recognize and acknowledge her power in the parenting relationship.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

yk,I wonder if we're reading the same replies differently. I don't see much in your reply that any of the posters on here have disagreed with. I might be wrong-I haven't been back and read them. But I think everything you've said is reasonable. In some ways I think I parent by the least bad option-I think a lot of parents of several kids do. Constantly crunching the math to make sure that most people get most of their needs mostly met. I would not send a kid to their room for something like, IDK, lying or being a bit rude. Its a crisis management tool, its to stop behaviour that needs stopping, I completely agree its non ideal, I just think its pretty inevitable when you have the mix of personalities that a lot of houses are blessed with.

IME its also a significantly better option that the realistic alternatives. If you realistically have the option of explaining calmly to your kids that their behaviour is not ok, and they will nod and agree and perhaps give each other a conciliatory hug, then Jesus you should not be using a time out. You should probably get some kind of parenting medal actually.

Wanted to mention this though. "I do agree with those who think that the use of time-out as a punishment is something we should limit. It is a way of withdrawing positive approval.". See I think that is the other thing. At the point when I used time out, my kids would not under any impression whatsohever that there was positive approval going on. Their annoyance at going to their room would be annoyance that they had to leave the fun of the group. Not my positive approval. Because at the point when I'm sending someone to their room, I'm not being very positive.

I will say that when I have one kid at a time, when the others are off at a class or sleepover whatever, I don't believe I've ever needed to use punishment at all (or time outs or whatever-I do think that "consequences" is a semantic gloss. Sending someone to their room is a punishment-own it. Not you Capn Optimism, btw).


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> In some ways I think I parent by the least bad option-I think a lot of parents of several kids do. Constantly crunching the math to make sure that most people get most of their needs mostly met. I would not send a kid to their room for something like, IDK, lying or being a bit rude. Its a crisis management tool, its to stop behaviour that needs stopping, I completely agree its non ideal, I just think its pretty inevitable when you have the mix of personalities that a lot of houses are blessed with.


I love it that you crunch the math when parenting. That is what I imagined, from your .sig, actually. Now that I have a kid who is a math person, I find that description of parenting logic as number crunching tremendously charming. (I know he is my kid because he looks like me, even though he likes math so much that it could be confusing.)

Family life does involve some degree of utilitarianism. The thing that saves us is that children are smart enough to know our intentions. They cut us slack according to our ability to communicate love. I think people on here in the main do their very best to be thoughtful and careful, and that has to go a long way.


----------



## MamadeRumi (Aug 5, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> I am also not sure that punishment is always the worst thing. My child really likes the idea of rewards and punishments. It has always appealed to his love of arithmetic and fairness. I don't use them because the annoying, constant discussion method that everyone in the US deplores works very well with him.


This is the second time I've seen something like this mentioned. Who said that EVERYONE in the US deplores or finds annoying the constant discussion method? I think most of us participating in this thread have included discussing the matter with our child, whether that discussion comes after a cooling off period or without one, and many of us are from the US.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamadeRumi*
> 
> This is the second time I've seen something like this mentioned. Who said that EVERYONE in the US deplores or finds annoying the constant discussion method? I think most of us participating in this thread have included discussing the matter with our child, whether that discussion comes after a cooling off period or without one, and many of us are from the US.


Very well. You are right and I am wrong.


----------



## waiting4years (Sep 1, 2013)

For me, a time out is cooling down time, especially for introverted children because they particularly need that alone time to gather themselves. I never put my stepson or a child in my care in time out if I am angry. I calmly affirm their feelings of frustration and tell them they are in a charge of when they feel calm enough to talk over the conflict with me. As a punishment, I think it teaches the way wrong lesson, even if it works.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

"Family life does involve some degree of utilitarianism. The thing that saves us is that children are smart enough to know our intentions. They cut us slack according to our ability to communicate love. I think people on here in the main do their very best to be thoughtful and careful, and that has to go a long way. "








nicely put. I think its an important thing for me. We really are splitting hairs to some extent. My guess is that if I walked into the kitchens of any person contributing to this thread I'd see happy, attached kids who were listened to and respected. I think a lot of the discussion can be really about how we conceptualise our family life. So for example, its important to me to be honest with myself about what I'm doing, not to hide behind semantic niceties. If I am using my power to remove a privilege from my kid, that's a punishment and I don't believe in using nicer words. I'd rather look at the complexity of the word, the greyscale of it all.


----------



## annie-laurie (Jan 7, 2007)

I believe that if you take it out of context, a timeout could sound cruel. . . .but, sometimes the chaos and overwhelming noise can test a parent's nerves. It is not cruel to teach the child to take a minute. It is logical. they can get so wound up, and when we use timeouts(rarely now) it is done in order to empty the madness. . .let things mellow out. That's not cruel. I often tell my child that i will discuss an issue with him when he calms down. It's useful to calm down before making hasty decisions! It'd be nice to get past all this talk of cruelty. We know that a simple tone can be cruel.. times out can be cruel, i suppose, but not if they are done with a mind to calm down. It's hard living with someone else and all of their moods. Times out help us to regroup and return to the center. Rarely do we not laugh and smile aferwards. It is a wonderful way to regroup! Just because we live in the same home does not mean that we don't need alone time, even if it is enforced! We teach our kids to cope. I need alone time. So does he!


----------



## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lilitchka*
> 
> to a child, especially a very young one, the most important thing in life is their relationship with their parents. Their parent,s love is number 1 thing in their lives!
> 
> ...


I don't think it is fair to say that when other moms put their child in time out they are "withdrawing" their love. I used time outs with my daughter who is now 17 and we have a wonderful relationship. She knows I love her and want the best for her but she also knows when she has crossed a line there will be consequences. In my opinion, parents who negotiate everything with their child and refuse to discipline them in any way (I'm not saying parents should spank) are not doing the children any favors. Children need to learn to calm themselves and to step away from a situation when they are losing control of their behavior and that's what time outs are about to me. I would also put myself in time out by walking away from a situation so that it didn't escalate. Time outs do not equal withdrawing love from a child, that just really bothers me to hear it put like that.


----------



## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> A good article on the 'cons' of time-outs...
> 
> ...


I respect your choices but I think this article is a little on the extreme side. A gentle time out, to me, is not going to traumatize my child. My relationship with my now 17 year old daughter is proof of that. This type of article only serves to make parents feel bad for not agreeing with the author. Maybe that's just me, though.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

yes, i agree with the posters who have said that time outs are not about withdrawing love. That's just not how it works IME. They are no more about withdrawing love than any other punishment. I respect those who don't punish but...that's a bigger thread. In the context of a parenting style that includes punishment, I think time outs aren't especially damaging.

I was thinking about this thread in terms of my relationship with my own mother. I really like and get on with my mum. We spend time together beyond being with the grandkids, although she is hundreds of miles away. Now she's the sort to try, in the early stages, to conceal any sadness or anger or disappointment. She is not a pushover but she tends to push such feelings away for as long as possible, that's how she was raised.

But of course, even now, at my age, I know when I've upset her. I know when I've disappointed her. I know when she's lying and she's really, really sad at something I've done.

I find it much, much harder to know she's upset but won't speak up about it, to not quite know the extent of her pain, than for her to say "listen. That hurt me, what you just said. I'm upset and I'm going to take ten minutes to calm down.". I mean I wouldn't like her saying that, but I wouldn't feel pain or rejection, just sorrow that I'd upset someone I love. Similarly, as a kid, having parents who stepped in and sent me out to calm down-perhaps by sending me to my room. That was a lot better than accidentally hurting someone or breaking something and dealing with the consequences-emotional consequences, as much as anything else.

There's another issue here for me. Sending a kid to sit alone. That's a very relative statement. If you have a huge house and you are sending your kid halfway across it and there are possibly howling wolves. Yeah. But if we are talking, right, sit on that step, in my eyeline (because in my house, everywhere is in eyeline) for a few minutes. Its not actually something I've ever done, I have only used time outs as the lesser of two evils. But I don't think its actually going to harm a child. We do aim to parent as consensually as possible and it wouldn't fit my parenting style-but I think that to claim kids will feel unloved and rejected is going a little far. Depending on the kid of course.


----------



## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> yes, i agree with the posters who have said that time outs are not about withdrawing love. That's just not how it works IME. They are no more about withdrawing love than any other punishment. I respect those who don't punish but...that's a bigger thread. In the context of a parenting style that includes punishment, I think time outs aren't especially damaging.
> 
> ...


I agree.

I dont generally use time outs but recently i fostered a very undisciplined sib group of three. The almost-3-yr old, when i would request things like "please dont throw your food on the floor" would glare at me "NO!"...i could explain til i was blue in the face why throwing food on the floor wasnt ok but sitting on the step seemed a more direct/concrete/understandable thing for him. He haaaated it. But it was precisely because he hated it that it helped him curb unwanted behavior. He wasnt excluded/sent away from the family....the time out step (bottom step of the stairs leading to the second floor) was literally about five feet from where he was sitting and (not)eating in full view of the entire family. He just didnt want to sit there, he wanted to be able to do whatever he wanted. I do find it ironic that in this forum there are people that will refuse to let their kids eat certain foods they want (have no problem, say, refusing to let a child eat a donut they really really really want and dont worry about the child's self-esteem or feelings of punishment then, even though it probably feels much the same to the child) or who will freely admit to holding a toddler down to brush their teeth, but then look at five mins in time out as horribly punitive discipline.

I think just about any discipline method can be used badly...just yesterday we were at gymnastics and a mom was having a HUGE power struggle with her little daughter over a book that she had dropped on the floor, the mom was sternly repeating over and over for like ten minutes "PICK UP THE BOOOOOOK!" it was kind of awful. But i wouldnt say in general "expecting a child to not throw books and to pick up what she throws" is a bad idea. I know kids who are occasionally spanked and are well attached loving kids with great parents, and kids who are never spanked who dont have nearly the same good relationship (and vice versa!) there is so much more that goes into parenting, a child's development, and the relationship between parent and child than just the specific method of discipline.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

Its a very good point queenjane about any parenting method being subject to abuse. I have to say, I've seen even highly conseusual parenting, no punishment etc taken to extremes, IMO, where the parent ends up burnt out and resentful and feels like the kid should be able to anticipate their needs better than they do. And, yk, they are a kid, being a bit of a pain, not being that empathic to their parents, is generally in their job description. (yeah, some kids are better than others but, yk, generally. And of course, our own kids, well thats the definition of ymmv)


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erinsmom1996*
> 
> I respect your choices but I think this article is a little on the extreme side. A gentle time out, to me, is not going to traumatize my child. My relationship with my now 17 year old daughter is proof of that. This type of article only serves to make parents feel bad for not agreeing with the author. Maybe that's just me, though.


I found the article absurd and condescending. I suspect the author has limited experience with children, other than her own little circle of like-minded friends.

I work in school with special needs kids and kids with behavior problems. Some of the kids I know have REAL issues due to lack of attachment or abandonment. It is stark and heartbreaking.I believe that it actually takes something pretty extreme to cause these kinds of problems, such as going to prison. Or repeatedly telling a child that you wish they had never been born. The kids who have issues with abandonment really are the exception, not the rule.

Kids do not develop abandonment issues over time outs.









By the same token, all children need to learn that some behavior is unacceptable. Parents who fail to do this are failing their children. I'm quite sure that lots of families manage to teach this without timeouts. It is fine by me for someone to never use a time out. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with using them, either. For some kids in some situations, it is the most direct, clear way to get them to understand.

The goal is to teach kids that they are unconditionally loved and precious, but that some behavior isn't allowed. Time outs can be a part of that. A child is better off learning that lesson with time outs than not being taught that they *can* and *must* control their behavior.


----------



## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

The op did pose the question, 'What's wrong with timeouts'. I thought the article did a very eloquent job of explaining why and how some people do not use them. It was not meant to be an attack on those who do use time-outs. I certainly don't think children who have been subjected to time-outs turn out any worse than any other children. It does give parents something to think about, and maybe seek out other discipline tools that could end up working better for their families.

With regard to schools...I think children who grow up in a household with time-outs (or similar punishments) are likely to be used to them and to respond well to them in a school setting. I don't, however, think time-outs in schools are necessary. Most daycares in our area (infant-school age) publish the fact that they 'NEVER' use time-outs. They mostly use versions of re-direction. This 'usually' works.

Some kiddos can definately learn which behavior is acceptable and which is not without the use of time-outs or punishment.


----------

