# I Know This is Wrong...but WHY??



## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

I won't mention the dreaded "F" word, but it seems plausible to me that if a baby nurses to sleep every night, they won't know how to get back to sleep without it. How does any AP parent make peace with this? I want to nurse him to sleep, and nurse him back to sleep, but I worry that I am doing harm.

I know all babies sleep differently, but I _don't_ think its normal or healthy that my 14 month old has only ever slept for a grand total of 2 hours by himself, ever, without me needing to come in and put him back to sleep. I don't think its normal that it takes me upwards of 60-90 minutes every night just to _get_ him asleep. I feel guilty, and sad, because I know he's only doing what he knows how to do, so I must have somehow screwed up. All the articles I read are about infants - its ok for infants not to sleep all night, but no one ever addresses toddlers, who don't _need_ night-time feedings, and night-time wakings.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

My son only started sleeping more than 2 or 3 hours at a time at night when he was right around 14 months. I think what your child is doing is perfectly normal and that he will outgrow it before he is kindergarten age. I think it is quite normal and average (and common) for children to do that and that each child is different. Of course, I dream of having a child that naturally sleeps 6 or 8 hours a night by the age of 6 months, but so far, I haven't been that lucky. Then again, I did get to enjoy that nighttime cuddling a lot longer than some. Try to look at it as a good thing, even though you might not always feel that way.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

your child's sleeping habits are entirely normal and biologically/developmentally appropriate.

damn this society that thinks that getting our little ones to sleep through the night and without parental intervention is the be-all-end-all.

how do you think you are doing harm by meeting your child's needs? i'm not understanding your question.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I've always nursed my children back to sleep. They do eventually learn how to go back to sleep without nursing. My 3 year old did at about 15 months of age and my 17 month old has since he was about 8-9 months old.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
your child's sleeping habits are entirely normal and biologically/developmentally appropriate.

damn this society that thinks that getting our little ones to sleep through the night and without parental intervention is the be-all-end-all.

how do you think you are doing harm by meeting your child's needs? i'm not understanding your question.

I guess I feel like I accidentally "engineered" his needs to be what they are, by co-sleeping and nursing him to sleep. There has to be some over-lap between what is truly a child's need, and what they are used to having and getting, and its hard to tell which is which sometimes.

The question I'm asking is - Ferber (there I said it) states that however the baby initially goes to sleep, that's what they'll need to get _back_ to sleep when they partially wake up during the night. WHY is this incorrect? It seems remotely plausible to me.


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## alima (Jun 16, 2006)

My ds was just under 2 when he started to fall asleep without nursing. He's almost 14, and I wish I could find a way to keep him awake









I worried all along about whether he would ever fall asleep by himself, whether he could sleep by himself at all, and if I was doing the long-term damage everyone thought I was by allowing him to sleep with me, nurse on demand, etc. He didn't sleep through the night until he was over 3, and couldn't sleep alone until he was 8 or 9.

When he turned 10, he started sleeping in his own bed, alone, by preference. By 11 he didn't want me to tuck him in anymore. Now that he's nearly adult sized, we barely fit in my bed together. I miss the snuggles and cuddling









My advice: in the long run it really doesn't matter what you do, as long as it works for you and your child, and your child will learn to comfort and soothe himself, eventually, when he's ready. There really is no "normal" timetable for any of this, just a bell curve of variation, and all of it is normal. He won't need you to do this stuff for him when he's a teenager, I guarantee (ds doesn't even like me in his room anymore), and you will miss it eventually, enjoy it while you can.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:

The question I'm asking is - Ferber (there I said it) states that however the baby initially goes to sleep, that's what they'll need to get back to sleep when they partially wake up during the night. WHY is this incorrect? It seems remotely plausible to me.
Not true in this house. DS has to be bounced/rocked to bed at night, but nurses back to sleep if he wakes up. He won't nurse to bed, and he'd probably lose his mind if I tried to bounce him in the middle of the night.

I don't see what is so wrong about a baby expecting to be nursed when they awaken at night.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

It's not necessarily incorrect that what a baby uses to get to sleep initially is what they will use to get back to sleep. However, I'm not seeing how you are making the jump from this statement to the assumption that nursing your child to sleep for as long as they like it is wrong.

Just because A is correct (for the sake of this conversation/thread) doesn't mean that using N as A is incorrect! (Does that make sense?)

I feel I can speak up here and say that your child will learn how to go to sleep without nursing and stay asleep without nursing on their own schedule!

My oldest (now 9yrs old) nursed to sleep almost every night of his life until he decided he didn't need to anymore. We co-slept every single night until he decided that there wasn't enough room in the bed with DP and myself. He has no sleep issues whatsoever.

My middle (now 2.5 yrs old) also nursed to sleep every single night until he was ready to stop. He co-slept from his first night of existence until he was ready to sleep in his own bed (in his brother's room). He is still transitioning and will go to sleep in his own bed and sometimes sleep all night, and sometimes wake up and come to bed with us! No problem!

My youngest, 4.5 months, will co-sleep until she's finished and will nurse to sleep as long as she likes.

I don't believe this has, is, or will negatively affected my child's sleep. I don't believe this is engineering a problem, since I see no problem. Nursing is comfort, they want comfort, you are giving them comfort. You will not ruin your child for life just because you are nursing to sleep. Your toddler is transitioning to more independence, which can be scary, and sometimes needs extra reassurance that mom is still there and things are the same. Many times this results in additional feedings for a while. It will be alright!


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
it seems plausible to me that if a baby nurses to sleep every night, they won't know how to get back to sleep without it. How does any AP parent make peace with this? I want to nurse him to sleep, and nurse him back to sleep, but I worry that I am doing harm.


I strongly believe that you are not doing harm. How will he learn to go to sleep without nursing? He just will; all children do. They are driven to mature and grow independent and do things on their own, even though we do for them when they are babies. You would not apply the same logic to so many other things...i.e. if I carry him where he wants to go he will never want to walk.

My DD has always needed a lot of touching and parenting to sleep well. Now at 20 months I am seeing glimmers of some sleep independence; she wakes, looks around and rolls over and goes back to sleep more and more these days.

Around the first birthday can be such a tough time for sleep. Can you give yourself (and him) a little more time? He does not sound abnormal to me and I don't think you've screwed up at all. I can also imagine how tired you are, guilty and sad are the last things you need. Hang in there.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Ok I thought a bit and maybe I can answer my own question - so maybe sleep associations _do_ exist - but why must the baby associate sleep with something other than mom? I guess that's the crux of his argument - his idea of a "healthy" sleep association is one that doesn't involve parents.

Any thoughts?

And thanks for letting me know other kids are the same way! That really helps.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

If you fall asleep reading, do you need to read to go back to sleep if you wake up? (Barring insomnia...) There's a big difference between the initial going-to-sleep time (transitioning from day to night, which can be really hard) and little wake ups (just need to eat, pee, finished on sleep cycle and on to another, had a bad dream, whatever).

But yes, some kids do NEED to be comforted or nursed or rocked or just otherwise made to be aware that you're there, and they're OK. Some NEED help to fall asleep, because it's not an easy transition on their own. I certainly have had times in my life when falling asleep, no matter how tired I was, was not easy, and I was glad to have my partner there to talk to me or read to me or otherwise help me be able to make the transition. Why would we offer any less to our babies?

Just like with nursing, with being carried, with needing help pottying, whatever, this is a stage, and it WILL pass. I fully believe humans are, in general, not designed to sleep entirely alone, but one day, your baby won't be a baby and won't need you to spend an hour and a half helping them get to sleep. But they will be very grateful you put in the time when they did need it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
Ok I thought a bit and maybe I can answer my own question - so maybe sleep associations _do_ exist - but why must the baby associate sleep with something other than mom? I guess that's the crux of his argument - his idea of a "healthy" sleep association is one that doesn't involve parents.

Any thoughts?

And thanks for letting me know other kids are the same way! That really helps.

Ferber is full of it. That's just all there is to it.

Look at it from a biological standpoint. Gorillas don't leave their babies alone so they can learn to put themselves back to sleep. It just happens when they're ready for it to happen.

-Angela


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
I guess I feel like I accidentally "engineered" his needs to be what they are, by co-sleeping and nursing him to sleep. There has to be some over-lap between what is truly a child's need, and what they are used to having and getting, and its hard to tell which is which sometimes.

The question I'm asking is - Ferber (there I said it) states that however the baby initially goes to sleep, that's what they'll need to get _back_ to sleep when they partially wake up during the night. WHY is this incorrect? It seems remotely plausible to me.

Saw this post. He needs what he needs (and he's not really any different than many his age if you do a poll.) You are following his lead and he knows what he is doing; trust him. I know how you feel, I've been there, but I do not think you have made your son 'needy' or done wrong by him at all.

RE Ferber: I don't know 'why', but my DD does not follow his rule. She never really did and now as she gets closer to two she does less and less...having her milk and rocking to get to sleep and going back to sleep upon waking either by herself or with me throwing an arm over her etc. It sounds logical, I agree, but babies often haven't read his book


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I nursed Joe to sleep when he was a baby. We coslept & I continued to nurse him at night until he weaned. Of course, he gradually reduced both the number of times he woke in the night, & the amount of time he'd nurse at each waking... right before he weaned, literally the only time he'd nurse at night was at about 1:15 am- he'd wake up & nurse for 2 minutes at the most, & then he'd go back to sleep till morning. Now he is eight & he sleeps great. He can sleep in a loud house, a quiet house, with or without background noise... he doesn't need to be nursed back to sleep!!









People tell you that your child will be doomed if you nurse him back to sleep. Don't believe it. Especially if he is your only child- enjoy this time. Cherish it. Nurse him down for naps, & then sleep with him. Hold him when he sleeps. Soon he'll be too big to fit in your arms. Trust me- time goes wayyy too fast. You won't regret following your instinct. It won't make your baby clingy. It will make him secure.


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## Kids&dog (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
...I _don't_ think its normal or healthy that my 14 month old has only ever slept for a grand total of 2 hours by himself, ever, without me needing to come in and put him back to sleep.










I'd have to agree with you on this. I don't think it's normal that your child needs to be nursed/comforted back to sleep at 14 mnths. I read a statistic once and can't quote it verbatim, but it said something to the effect that about 90% of babies sleep through the night by 12 mos. Even if I'm off by a few percentage points, I've got the gist of that correct. BUT, who really cares what's normal or not? If the situation is not working for you and your child, I'd try to remedy it.

I wonder about this sort of thing a lot lately. I have a 2 1/2 yr old who has always been a champ of a sleeper, sleeping through the night by 2 mos. and now I have a 2 mo old who doesn't. I'm doing all the same stuff with both, but both kids are reacting to my parenting differently. So, I'm a case in point that all kids are different, and therefore, there's no one answer for all.

In fact, I'd be very curious to see if anyone has polled the AP parents on this site to see how many babies sleep through the night when they co-sleep and how many don't. My guess is (to use an analogy), if there is chocolate cake available everytime a baby wakes up, the baby will continue to wake up.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
your child's sleeping habits are entirely normal and biologically/developmentally appropriate.

damn this society that thinks that getting our little ones to sleep through the night and without parental intervention is the be-all-end-all.

how do you think you are doing harm by meeting your child's needs? i'm not understanding your question.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Just to reassure you... they do eventually end up sleeping thru the night and they don't nurse to sleep forever... my 12 year old sleeps alone and doesn't nurse, so does my 9 year old, my 5 year old and my 2 1/2 year old (he just resently stopped). It is only a problem when you think it is... you have to not let society tell you what you are doing is wrong. You are loving your baby (and he is still a baby really), and meeting his needs which he still has at night.
I guess I found co-sleeping the easy way out for this "problem" as I didn't wake up much to deal with their needs...














: I just rolled over and nursed them, and we both wemnt back to sleep.








H


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## TinyBabyBean (Oct 18, 2003)

I disagree. I think wherever you read that statistic it was highly incorrect. Based on all my experiences in life. Oldest of over 35 cousins (I stopped counting), sister to 3 siblings, mother of 5, and talking with many friends. Many babies need to be comforted back to sleep well into the second year. It varies greatly by child and is not determined by breastfeeding or co-sleeping in my experience. BABIES DO NOT WAKE UP JUST BECAUSE THEIR MILK, or chocolate cake, IS NEARBY. That might make sense to me if I had never experienced differently but that is just not so. In my experience they wake for reassurance and comfort.

I will just give my examples:

1st DD, weaned at 4 months, only co-slept first few weeks, slept in crib and then toddler bed started co-sleeping again at around 3 years old and she started actually sleeping through the night then, woke through the night until around 3 years old.

2nd DD, weaned at 6 months, never co-slept as she seemed to want to sleep alone and i had actually wanted to co-sleep as i was starting to learn better parenting, woke through the night until around 4 years old.

3rd DD, weaned at 3 1/2 years, co-slept, night nursed, woke through the night till around 4 years old.

4th DD, weaned at 4 years old, co-slept later on but we did The No Cry Sleep Solution from the start until we realized it didn't work for us, night nursed but then night weaned around 16 months causing much distress and little sleep for everyone, woke through the night until 4 years old.

5th DS, still nursing, he nightweaned himself and this was a big surprise to me!!!, most nights he sleeps through the night already and he is only 2. he usually moves to another spot far away from everyone on the bed and falls back to sleep. it is only about once every few weeks now that he will come over for a cuddle.

Now, when I say woke through the night until a certain age I am including down to once a night. It was pretty much hourly at 12-16 months. It seems to be a stage and a pattern I noticed in all my children. It gradually decreased until they were waking just once a night and soothing themselves back to sleep. The more you keep reassuring him you are there with his greatest comfort, in his case nursing, the more he will realize sleeping is safe and okay and he will get there and stay there on his own sooner then you know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kids&dog* 
I'd have to agree with you on this. I don't think it's normal that your child needs to be nursed/comforted back to sleep at 14 mnths. I read a statistic once and can't quote it verbatim, but it said something to the effect that about 90% of babies sleep through the night by 12 mos. Even if I'm off by a few percentage points, I've got the gist of that correct. BUT, who really cares what's normal or not? If the situation is not working for you and your child, I'd try to remedy it.

I wonder about this sort of thing a lot lately. I have a 2 1/2 yr old who has always been a champ of a sleeper, sleeping through the night by 2 mos. and now I have a 2 mo old who doesn't. I'm doing all the same stuff with both, but both kids are reacting to my parenting differently. So, I'm a case in point that all kids are different, and therefore, there's no one answer for all.

In fact, I'd be very curious to see if anyone has polled the AP parents on this site to see how many babies sleep through the night when they co-sleep and how many don't. My guess is (to use an analogy), if there is chocolate cake available everytime a baby wakes up, the baby will continue to wake up.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

My 5yo was nursed to sleep every day of his life until he was 3.5, at which point he asked to cuddle to sleep instead. He still does this, not because he cannot sleep any other way, but becasue we enjoy it.
He was around 2 when he started sleeping for longer stretches at night, and 4when he basically could sleep all night without one of us going in if he woke up- though, on special nights when he has a bad dream, or is not feeling well, he still needs us to be there for him.
This is all part of normal childhood development. You can train them to be different, but if you really, truly follow their own patterns and needs, this is roughly what it will look like (though all kids do this at different rates, and in different ways)
Each child will be able to put him or her self to sleep eventually, no matter how you put them to sleep now. It is a myth that if you nurse them down, they will need that forever.
What you are going through sounds perfectly normal.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, I agree that Ferber is full of sh*t.

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

He also makes it very clear that he doesn't believe its a phase (which I think it is) - it seems like all of you have children who did indeed go through just such a phase.

Didn't mean to make this about Ferber; hope this doesn't get pulled.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
Well, I agree that Ferber is full of sh*t.

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

He also makes it very clear that he doesn't believe its a phase (which I think it is) - it seems like all of you have children who did indeed go through just such a phase.

Didn't mean to make this about Ferber; hope this doesn't get pulled.


aaah, there's the flaw in the logic.

assuming that a child wakes up multiple times per night equates to "not sleeping well".

assuming that children who do not sleep through the night are sleep deprived.

in reality, waking up multiple times per night is NORMAL. it's how our brains are designed. cosleeping and nursing to sleep actually creates a more restful situation. most of us cosleeping and nursing moms would probably say that our children do stir but don't fully wake up. HOW is it more restful for a child to wake up fully in the middle of the night and be left to cry, and then the child gives up hope that their cries will be heard and attended to







: and then they fall asleep again? so there's another flaw in the logic.

assuming that a child, after being left to cio then 'learns' to sleep through the night.

this is the part that comes in that solidifies that ferber's philosophy is cold-hearted. it is also possible that a child, in that scenario, 'gives up' and internalizes the message that their voice doens't matter, that their needs are not important for others. this is so sad to me.

compare this to many of the cosleeping/nursing to sleep babies who roll over, might not even open their eyes, latch on and fall almost immediately back to sleep. honestly, on any given night, i don't even know how often dd nurses because hallelujah...i get to sleep through it all too because she doesn't really wake up. so although dd nurses multiple times per night (on average, i would guess she nurses 3x), she doesn't wake up fully, so i suppose, technically she IS sleeping through the night. and both her and i wake up refreshed and well rested. there is nothing in the world quite like waking up to see your toddler's smiling face, a cuddle and a "hi, mama".







:


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
Well, I agree that Ferber is full of sh*t.

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

He also makes it very clear that he doesn't believe its a phase (which I think it is) - it seems like all of you have children who did indeed go through just such a phase.

I guess the difference for me is this: SAY he's right on this point (














, say that (1) she's not sleeping "well", (2) this is unusual and (3) is not a phase. Not sleeping "well" is a danger, just for a sec, let's go with that.

Saying the above is true, which (to me) is more dangerous: Not sleeping "well", or taking something my child takes comfort in away because an invisible man with a book says to and is somehow able to make sense of in such a way that I actually convince myself that nursing my child back to sleep is contributing to putting my child in actual danger?


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Define sleeping "well". Does your child have energy during the day? Do they seem rested when they wake up (perhaps after a short transition period)? Are they growing, learning, thriving? Then I'm going to bet they're getting enough sleep. I really think it's a myth that humans need to sleep "eight straight" - frankly, I think it's much healthier to be able to wake and return to sleep easily than to be unconscious for 8 hours in a row. By meeting their night needs, we can help our children learn that sleep is ok, that waking is ok, that the transition from one state to the other can be peaceful, even pleasant.

And yea, the idea that needing you a lot at night isn't a phase is just bunk. Listen to yourself, listen to your child, and listen to the other parents around you who are also meeting their children's sleep and nursing needs.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

I don't think waking to nurse every 2-3 hours at that age should be equated with something overtly dangerous. This is the biological norm, although we are TAUGHT that it is deviant. You might be interested in Dr. James McKenna's research on mother-baby sleep pairs, and this article might help put your mind at rest about your very normal baby, and you might enjoy the book Our Babies Ourselves.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.


Excuse the all caps, I am not yelling AT you, just making a point: IF YOUR CHILD NEEDS TO NURSE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT, & YOU ALLOW HIM TO NURSE, YOU ARE NOT, NOT, NOT DAMAGING HIM. IT DOES NOT DAMAGE YOUR CHILDREN TO BE PARENTED BACK TO SLEEP.

Ok, I'm done. Phew. Joe nursed to sleep EVERY NIGHT of his life, from day one until he was at least 3.5. He woke up many times to nurse back to sleep in the first year or so. I did not sit up & worry that he was nursing too much. I latched him on & went back to sleep. He nursed like this until he was close to three, then he slowed way down, nursing to sleep (maybe ten minutes tops) & then once in the middle of the night, for about 2 minutes. He woke up literally at the same time each night, within a 1-2 minute range. The day he weaned, we laid down at night & talked & soon he fell asleep. Slept the whole night & slept like a log. He STILL sleeps so great.

You are not damaging your child by parenting him to sleep. It does damage children to be left alone to cry at night. That is a fact. Please trust your instincts!!







:


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
Define sleeping "well". Does your child have energy during the day? Do they seem rested when they wake up (perhaps after a short transition period)? Are they growing, learning, thriving? Then I'm going to bet they're getting enough sleep. I really think it's a myth that humans need to sleep "eight straight" - frankly, I think it's much healthier to be able to wake and return to sleep easily than to be unconscious for 8 hours in a row. *By meeting their night needs, we can help our children learn that sleep is ok, that waking is ok, that the transition from one state to the other can be peaceful, even pleasant.

And yea, the idea that needing you a lot at night isn't a phase is just bunk. Listen to yourself, listen to your child, and listen to the other parents around you who are also meeting their children's sleep and nursing needs.*









beautifully stated.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Thanks to all of you for your replies - you've made some EXCELLENT points. I knew I could count on you! You have helped me tremendously.

I like co-sleeping; I'm just not enjoying being latched onto constantly (he never gets off, and if I pop him off, he wakes up and cries), and I am struggling with what to do during naps and before I go to bed. But these are questions for another thread


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

You have hit on two biggest scare stories sold to parents, IMO: a) your child isn't sleeping 'well' and it's bad for him developmentally, physically, etc. and b) you are creating BAD HABITS that will haunt your child and your family forever.

Again, to me it just doesn't ring true. Babies are babies. We do things for them that they won't need done for the rest of their lives -- carry them, in most cases diaper them, the list goes on -- and no one tries to convince us that we'd better quit now or they'll never dress themselves or wipe their own behinds. The sleep issue hits us where we live because many of us are exhausted and our defenses are down.

And I agree with the others above that, assuming your son has energy and isn't falling asleep over his cheerios, he's probably much better rested than you are. I know that's the way it is in my house.

I think you're both doing just fine.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

I was stressing about the whole not sleeping through the night thing for a while, i was feeling like something was wrong, kinda how you are feeling.

I stopped reading baby sleep books
I stopped worrying about it
I made sure it wasn't something physical ( made sure her reflux was under control)
and let go of the stress.

Now Kailey sleeps alot better







even through the night twice

you are not doing any harm to your baby hun!!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I spend time on a mainstream board and there was a thread one time about Sleeping Through The Night.

This mom was worried that her child wasn't STTN because she heard him wake a couple of times and 'fuss' back to sleep.

There were tons of responses and they ALL reassured her that her baby WAS STTN.

So basically it's STTN if he fusses himself back to sleep. But it's not if he nurses back to sleep?







:

It's healthy if he wakes and puts his pacifier in his mouth but not if he wakes and puts my nipple in his mouth?

These are all the insane conclusions you have to draw if you go by Ferber's logic.

Forget about it!


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

my dd never slept threw the night till she was 3 1/2 she woke up till then feeding 3-4 9oz bottles(clw she was having cows milk would not take ebm) and even now turning 5 she still dont sleep threw the night even night when she makes it threw the night without coming in to my bed i am amazed and feel like the bed is so huge without her sleeping on me or wake us up sometimes she wakes up and cant even get back to sleep good luck


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
your child's sleeping habits are entirely normal and biologically/developmentally appropriate.

damn this society that thinks that getting our little ones to sleep through the night and without parental intervention is the be-all-end-all.

how do you think you are doing harm by meeting your child's needs? i'm not understanding your question.

Ditto. It's our society's deep dark secret that most children don't sleep through the night for the first several years of their life. The ones who do almost certainly got that way from being left to CIO, which I'm sure you are aware of the dangers of.

My almost 20 month old still nurses to sleep for every nap and at night, and still nurses several times during the night. Nursing is the easiest, fastest, most joyful nap/nighttime parenting tool. I know she won't do this forever, so I treasure these special times.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Another thing I would like to point out is that around that age (between 12ish and 18/20 months), many kids are to the point where they may not be nursing at night so much for hunger/thirst as for comfort due to other reasons. Both of mine got their molars and eye teeth during that time, and woke a lot due to teething pain, nursing seemed to help a lot. Also, many kids are learning to walk, run, talk a lot more, use utensils, etc. so lots of developmental changes going on that could wake them too. Both of mine seem to be settling into sleeping all or most of the night at around 20/21 months. DD is sleeping all night about 1/2 the time now (she has all teeth but the 2 year molars), and it really seems to depend on how well she at her dinner the night before...if she picked at her food, she wakes at 2ish to nurse, otherwise, she goes right back to sleep on her own. So my take is, give it about 6 months, and I bet your child will be waking only once or twice vs. every 2 hours!


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## superlori (Nov 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
I like co-sleeping; I'm just not enjoying being latched onto constantly (he never gets off, and if I pop him off, he wakes up and cries), and I am struggling with what to do during naps and before I go to bed. But these are questions for another thread









I don't know if this will help you, but it works with my baby - when you unlatch him while he's sleeping, try leaving your finger in his mouth to help with the transition. While he's sleeping (properly sleeping, in deep sleep, not REM sleep), he'll probably only be flutter sucking. When he stops fluttering, gently and slowly remove your finger. It may not work for you, but if you haven't tried that yet, it might work for him.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Just add my two cents real quick. None of mine slept through the night until age 5 or 6, even after weaning. We CLW and nurse to sleep and back to sleep. As they outgrow the need they gradually need to nurse less and less so the long time periods you are experiencing now turn into seconds or just a few minutes. Then it is enough that they will just want to hug or stroke you as they fall asleep.

My older children are 10, 14, 15, 17 and 26, all of them know how to get themselves to sleep and have been doing it for many years. No harm done at all.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

there's nothing unusual....think of it this way....reasonably thinking, do you *really* imagine you'll be present on your child's honeymoon someday so s/he can nurse to sleep?


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

I just wanted to throw something in about Ferber's assertions regarding sleep associations. That argument made soooooooooo much sense to me. I really believed it. And a few months ago, when my girls stopped falling to sleep while drinking their milk or lying in bed with me, I started putting them down awake in their cribs because I sort of felt I had no choice. Lo and behold, 9 out of 10 nights they just go to sleep. (The 10th night - tonight, BTW - they cry and I go get them, cuddle them, read a few more books, and try again) So, they go to sleep in their own cribs and they don't CIO. Oh, and they are identical twins, so they have the same biology and the same upbringing. These days, unless she's popping a tooth, Lilly sleeps through. But Kate wakes up every single night, at least once, and has to come sleep with us. So did I screw up Kate but somehow not her sister? I don't think so. It's just who they are.

It's so easy to bash yourself in the head every single day trying to figure out how to get your kids to sleep better. But barring the blatantly obvious (noise, uncomfortable temperature/jammies, etc) I don't think there's a darn thing you can do.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, its going from bad to worse. I spent all afternoon taking apart the crib and putting the mattress on the floor. Same old story - slept soundly until 1 a.m., then up SCREAMING, rolling, and kicking for THREE HOURS. I don't know what I'm going to do. I haven't gotten any sleep in almost a week. The child simply will not sleep. I am at my wits end. And he wants to be latched on ALL NIGHT. I feel like I'm going to go nuts if I don't get those little teeth off my nipples for awhile. DH is so angry with me, angry at the whole situation, and won't help except to tell me he needs to Ferbered and its all my fault for setting him (DS) up for this by letting him sleep with us. I really have no ideas left at all except to have this child permanently attached to my boobs all night long.

Off to make some coffee and cry into my yogurt.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Even when DS went to sleep by himself he still woke for me frequently. BUT (big but) it's always been very peaceful. He just wakes.. nurses.. back to sleep.

MDC always seems divided on things like this but in your situation I would absolutely night wean. How do you feel about that? I know it's not a magic bullet but figuring out different ways to calm him really can't hurt (IMHO).

re: your DH I think it's time to sit down and ask for respect and support. *You did your best* and there is no harm in recognizing that it's time for change. He should not hold that against you.

CIO is never a solution. But IMO crying with a caregiver in the context of change is an acceptable way of uncovering more peaceful nights for all of you.










eta: let me just say that waking every 2 hours doesn't bother me. I think DS does that often. But when nursing back to sleep is no longer a smooth process I think it's a sign that your baby is ready for change.


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## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 

The question I'm asking is - Ferber (there I said it) states that however the baby initially goes to sleep, that's what they'll need to get _back_ to sleep when they partially wake up during the night. WHY is this incorrect? It seems remotely plausible to me.

I think it all depends on the babys personality. My DD was the type to want to sleep with my boob in her mouth all night if she could. She is still nursing to sleep at 2.5 and I love it. There is starting to be the occasional night now where nursing doesn't work, and I am dreading the end of nursing to sleep.
There have been a couple of times where I have thought and been told that I was "creating a monster" who would never go to sleep without me. It finally dawned on me, why would I want my kids to fall asleep on thier own without me? Sure I have the occasional fruterated night but I know I have an easier quicker time getting me DD to bed than alot quicker and easier than alot of moms I know. They are only little once and I know they won't still let me nurse them to sleep by the time they are in highschool lol








The reason that I say the back to sleep comment is not right for every baby,is because my DS is completely different. He will happily nurse to sleep and while he does nurse 1-2 times a night ( he is only 6 mos) he is happy to go to sleep if I rub his back or simple reach out and touch him.
One other thing, you said that it takes you an hour to nurse to sleep?
Have you tried a slightly later bedtime? It used to take me a while to get DD to sleep because she wasn't really tired. I started adjusting bedtime by 15 min or so each time for a few nights. It normally only takes her between 10 -15 min now.
HTH
Krista


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## sarbear (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
Well, its going from bad to worse. I spent all afternoon taking apart the crib and putting the mattress on the floor. Same old story - slept soundly until 1 a.m., then up SCREAMING, rolling, and kicking for THREE HOURS. I don't know what I'm going to do. I haven't gotten any sleep in almost a week. The child simply will not sleep. I am at my wits end. And he wants to be latched on ALL NIGHT. I feel like I'm going to go nuts if I don't get those little teeth off my nipples for awhile. DH is so angry with me, angry at the whole situation, and won't help except to tell me he needs to Ferbered and its all my fault for setting him (DS) up for this by letting him sleep with us. I really have no ideas left at all except to have this child permanently attached to my boobs all night long.

Off to make some coffee and cry into my yogurt.

Oh no







Well, I posted on a similar thread going on at the moment of my CIO questions as I to am suffering from sleep deprivation, so I feel your pain...
Have you read NCSS? I haven't read Ferber, so I can't speak to that, but we are trying some of the techniques Pantley recommends and having mild success. Off to my yogurt...


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

You have all my sympathy.

I really want to re-iterate my support and very strong belief that *you did not set him up for this* -- nature did. It is very difficult to go through in our modern society where we try to do so many things with only small, nuclear support systems, etc....none of which helps you right now. But I can't help but wish that you didn't have such a strong voice whispering in your ear that you *caused* this.

You're going to hate me but...is he teething? The one year molars kept my DD wide awake for several hours between 1am and 5am. I really believe it is a very painful process for those big, broad teeth to break through. And the thought of CIO/Ferberizing a baby in pain is a special kind of awful for me.

My advice, annoying as it is going to be, is to try to make your life easier, nap, get help from DH and family and friends to help you rest and give both yourself and your baby a bit more time. If you can't do that and still take care of Baby and yourself at the same time -- which I do not want to imply is any kind of failure it's just a reality of life, sincerely -- I suggest Jay Gordon's article: http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp -- not for nightweaning but hopfully for shifting the nursing into a new pattern giving you a hunk of time off.

You'll get through it, you really will. It is very hard what you're doing. I hope you get some rest soon.


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

I cant co-sleep, although I tried and wish I could. At night I wanna cuddle my babies and sleep. But I am SUCH a light sleeper, I never slept when they were even in the room with me, so they had to go









With that said, I am now SO glad that I cant. My sisters son was in her room forever, and whenever he wakes up, she would feed him, let him get up and play, ect. So now, he NATURALLY wakes up every night at the same time, 1 am, to eat and play.

I am very proud that all my kids sleep through the night. And the twins are 20 and have been for a year. Joshua has since maybe 2 months old. He will sleep 10 hours straight at night. I would feed my kids their last feedings, put them in their beds, door closed, lights off, and voila, asleep for the night. I didnt coddle them to sleep, and they learned to sleep. Very quickly may I add. A mother nursing and cuddling is stimulating to a child. And it does make them continue to need it. And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.

Like I said, I wish I could co-sleep cause I love snuggling, but I know that it isnt best for out children. They are champ sleepers, and I need that. And they need that. If they dont sleep good, they get crabby all day. I just put my kids down for their nap in their beds, and they are playing







They will be asleep in no time. They dont even cry in there because they know that mommy will come and get them in just a few minutes. Good luck.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I cant co-sleep, although I tried and wish I could. At night I wanna cuddle my babies and sleep. But I am SUCH a light sleeper, I never slept when they were even in the room with me, so they had to go









With that said, I am now SO glad that I cant. My sisters son was in her room forever, and whenever he wakes up, she would feed him, let him get up and play, ect. So now, he NATURALLY wakes up every night at the same time, 1 am, to eat and play.

I am very proud that all my kids sleep through the night. And the twins are 20 and have been for a year. Joshua has since maybe 2 months old. He will sleep 10 hours straight at night. I would feed my kids their last feedings, put them in their beds, door closed, lights off, and voila, asleep for the night. I didnt coddle them to sleep, and they learned to sleep. Very quickly may I add. A mother nursing and cuddling is stimulating to a child. And it does make them continue to need it. And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.

Like I said, I wish I could co-sleep cause I love snuggling, but I know that it isnt best for out children. They are champ sleepers, and I need that. And they need that. If they dont sleep good, they get crabby all day. I just put my kids down for their nap in their beds, and they are playing







They will be asleep in no time. They dont even cry in there because they know that mommy will come and get them in just a few minutes. Good luck.

Spoken like a mama of easy sleepers.







No offense intended, but your post sounds really self righteous, especially to a mama like the OP, who is struggling so hard to get a good night's sleep.

Your assertion is that you don't "coddle" your kids to sleep- implying that those of us who cosleep DO? Hardly. I did not coddle my son at night- if he woke & needed to nurse, I nursed him. In the daytime, if he was hungry, I'd feed him, & I didn't consider _that_ coddling, either.

You say:

Quote:

A mother nursing and cuddling is stimulating to a child. And it does make them continue to need it. And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.
I disagree. Joe barely woke up at night if I nursed him. If he would stir & I did NOT nurse him, he'd wake fully & cry- that is stimulating, & not in a good way. It might not be normal for YOUR 14 month old to not sleep more than two hours, but it was certainly normal for Joe. He had needs, & I met them, & because of that, today he is an amazing sleeper. He falls asleep when he is tired, wakes up when he is rested, & he can sleep anywhere. I am so glad I did it the way I did it.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

My dd JUST started sleeping for a solid 6-8 hour stretch (ie "Nighttime")... and she'll be 3 in a few months.

Sorry if this has already been asked but, is there any reason you can't co-sleep? I would be way easier on you than having to get up constantly.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
You have all my sympathy.

I really want to re-iterate my support and very strong belief that *you did not set him up for this* -- nature did. It is very difficult to go through in our modern society where we try to do so many things with only small, nuclear support systems, etc....none of which helps you right now. But I can't help but wish that you didn't have such a strong voice whispering in your ear that you *caused* this.

You're going to hate me but...is he teething? The one year molars kept my DD wide awake for several hours between 1am and 5am. I really believe it is a very painful process for those big, broad teeth to break through. And the thought of CIO/Ferberizing a baby in pain is a special kind of awful for me.

My advice, annoying as it is going to be, is to try to make your life easier, nap, get help from DH and family and friends to help you rest and give both yourself and your baby a bit more time. If you can't do that and still take care of Baby and yourself at the same time -- which I do not want to imply is any kind of failure it's just a reality of life, sincerely -- I suggest Jay Gordon's article: http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp -- not for nightweaning but hopfully for shifting the nursing into a new pattern giving you a hunk of time off.

You'll get through it, you really will. It is very hard what you're doing. I hope you get some rest soon.

YES that.







s to the OP!


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## juicypakwan (Jun 19, 2002)

joesmom said:


> Spoken like a mama of easy sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Spoken like a mama of easy sleepers.







No offense intended, but your post sounds really self righteous, especially to a mama like the OP, who is struggling so hard to get a good night's sleep.

You are MUCH more polite than me.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anakna4* 
It is my understanding that most physical growth happens at night and can be uncomfortable/painful.

Now that you mention this, I can tell you that Joe has been having "growing pains" in his legs the last few weeks. He has literally grown at LEAST an inch in the last month, so the pains are not a surprise, but yes, they do occur mostly at night. So that is a pattern that continues through childhood. Interesting...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
You are MUCH more polite than me.


Thanks. I'm not, really. I am just sickeningly sweet when I need to be. That isn't what I WANTED to post.







:


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.
Of course it is normal. Even as adults most of us wake multiple times to roll over or get up and go pee or wake up hungry etc etc.







: Both mine were every hour to 2 hour wakers until past 2yo.

Just because your kids slept thru the night dosnt mean that all kids can or will do this. Kids do most of their growing while asleep so it only stands to reason that they will be restless sleepers. And need to nurse at night to get all the nutrition they need. Of course not all kids will need to do this but from what I have read most will.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
You have all my sympathy.

I really want to re-iterate my support and very strong belief that *you did not set him up for this* -- nature did. It is very difficult to go through in our modern society where we try to do so many things with only small, nuclear support systems, etc....none of which helps you right now. But I can't help but wish that you didn't have such a strong voice whispering in your ear that you *caused* this.

You're going to hate me but...is he teething? The one year molars kept my DD wide awake for several hours between 1am and 5am. I really believe it is a very painful process for those big, broad teeth to break through. And the thought of CIO/Ferberizing a baby in pain is a special kind of awful for me.

You'll get through it, you really will. It is very hard what you're doing. I hope you get some rest soon.


Thank you for being empathetic. Its possible he's teething - he's 14 mos and only has 6 teeth and its been months and months since he's gotten any. I can't get a good look in there.

I do want to night wean, desperately, but he is even more desperate - that's why we were up for all that time last night. He was determined to nurse, and I was determined not to. But at times I just can't take the physical contact anymore - he also has roving hands and has to yank and pull on the other boob the whole time, and with the heat its been awful, as much as I love him, having his sweaty, sticky little hands pinching me and trying to get under my shirt all night is just too much.

Thank you for the link.


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## Kewpie (Sep 21, 2004)

I used to think I "did" something to DD, met her needs too much, held her too often in her early days. She was almost 2 before she slept through the night and now at over 3, still needs someone to be next to her to fall asleep. She was, and is, a higher needs kid. She spent the first 6 months of her life in my arms, no slings, no swings, no strollers, no cribs, not because I necessarily wanted it that way, but she'd scream if she wasn't.

Now I've had the ultimate nature vs. nurture experiement...twins! Born the same time, spent their first two weeks in identical environments (special care nursery) before coming home, in the same "routine". And oh my, they are SO different. DS puts himself to sleep most of the time. Hates the sling, isn't terribly fond of co-sleeping, prefers to be sprawled out flat on his back. DD on the other hand is shaping up to be a lot like her sister, she needs help getting to sleep.

So there, two kids, same environment, same parenting...totally different needs. Of course they're only 5 weeks old, all this can change.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
Well, its going from bad to worse. I spent all afternoon taking apart the crib and putting the mattress on the floor. Same old story - slept soundly until 1 a.m., then up SCREAMING, rolling, and kicking for THREE HOURS. I don't know what I'm going to do. I haven't gotten any sleep in almost a week. The child simply will not sleep. I am at my wits end. And he wants to be latched on ALL NIGHT. I feel like I'm going to go nuts if I don't get those little teeth off my nipples for awhile. DH is so angry with me, angry at the whole situation, and won't help except to tell me he needs to Ferbered and its all my fault for setting him (DS) up for this by letting him sleep with us. I really have no ideas left at all except to have this child permanently attached to my boobs all night long.

Off to make some coffee and cry into my yogurt.

Wow. Nearly the exact same thing happened to me last night. My DD, who USED to sleep through the night woke up at 12:30 to play and didn't go to sleep again until after 3:00. I was so frustrated. DP just went and slept on the couch.







:

I can tell you one thing. All this nightwaking might be good and normal for her, but it certainly isn't for me. I got about 4 hours of sleep and I AM CRANKY! Unfortunately, I have to be to work at the same time everyday regardless of when she decides to sleep.

Anyway, I feel for ya. :yawning:


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I am very proud that all my kids sleep through the night. And the twins are 20 and have been for a year. Joshua has since maybe 2 months old. He will sleep 10 hours straight at night. I would feed my kids their last feedings, put them in their beds, door closed, lights off, and voila, asleep for the night. I didnt coddle them to sleep, and they learned to sleep. Very quickly may I add. A mother nursing and cuddling is stimulating to a child. And it does make them continue to need it. And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.

Bleh. You are *proud* that your kids are good sleepers? Why? All you did was feed them, put them down, and leave. I'm gonna go out on a lark here and say that if the rest of us, with crappy sleepers, did that very thing, our kids were be screaming within seconds. I know mine would.

It's great that your kids sleep - really, but why do you have to post about it here, when the OP is obviously struggling so much? Go to a thread devoted to "Mother's of Exceptional Sleepers", although I bet you won't find that so easily considering *most* babies are not like yours.

Sorry for ranting, but it's incredibly frustrating to those of us with challenging sleepers to have people like you come along and make it out as though we are coddling our kids, or are in some way inferior to you and your fabulous sleepers.

Grrrrr.

Applecrisp - No sage wisdom here. I've decided that I need an attitude adjustment about dd's sleeping because otherwise I was super cranky. I found that if I sleep with her, (or even lay down and then steal away half an hour later or so) she'll sleep for about 2.5 hours for her first nap. I've been laying down with her and conking out the past few days and although the house is a mess and the laundry is piling up, *I* feel much better.

I'm so so so sorry that dh isn't understanding the situation ... that's awful.

Remember this mama - right now you are sacrificing yourself for your baby. It's hard and drives you crazy, but please pat yourself on the back for a job well done because you have not given in to all those people who tell you it would be easier to just let the munchkin cry it out.

(FWIW, I would totally go nuts if I had to keep my nipple in my babe's mouth too)

Hang in there.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nylecoj* 
Bleh. You are *proud* that your kids are good sleepers? Why? All you did was feed them, put them down, and leave. I'm gonna go out on a lark here and say that if the rest of us, with crappy sleepers, did that very thing, our kids were be screaming within seconds. I know mine would.


Now, see, _that's_ what I wanted to post!


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## A Boy's Mama (May 15, 2007)

I posted this in another thread but I meant to post it here, so sorry for the cross post!

For me, the solution to severe sleep deprivation was moving my son into his own bed and night weaning. And honestly, reading over and over again that the solution to my sleep deprivation was to just nurse the baby in my sleep was laughable because it was just not possible for us for several reasons. It was frustrating because I felt like I was somehow doing it all wrong or that I somehow just wasn't up to the task of parenthood. So at almost 8 months of age, I moved him to his crib and in the course of him getting used to sleeping in his crib he night weaned himself and started sleeping through the night. I did this for me because I knew that something had to change because up until that point, I felt like I was white knuckling it just to get through every day. My need for sleep was desperate. Something very interesting happened once my son started sleeping through the night... my generally grumpy and difficult to soothe baby became HAPPY. And he started taking naps during the day and he started being able to focus on playing with me and his toys much more than he had before. So it turns out that it wasn't just me that was suffering from sleep deprivation, so was he.

I'm posting this not because I think that cosleeping and nursing on demand during the night are bad things (of course they're not!) just that it's not always the best option available for every family. Sleep is not a want but a need for everyone and when someone's sleep needs aren't being met, then something needs to change. If that means bring the baby into bed and nurse on demand rather than whatever was going on before, then so be it. If that means trying other sleeping arrangements like maybe the baby sleeping in his own space, then ok. The point is, sleep is not a luxury but just as important as eating healthy food and drinking water and everyone's sleep (including mama's) should be made as high a priority as eating and drinking.

For the record, my son has been a great sleeper ever since moving to his own bed. He loves his bed and is now so proud of his new big boy bed that he shows everyone who comes over. Bedtime is a happy time and he knows that if he calls out for me, of course I will come.

Once I started getting the sleep I needed, parenting became easier and fun and happy and all of the things I knew it would be.

Sorry for such a long post!

Edited to add: Moving my son to his crib was not an overnight process. It was not totally easy (which is why it wasn't an easy decision to make but again, I was pretty desperate at this point) but with a lot of soothing and back patting and encouraging, he was fine in his crib. It meant for less sleep in the short run (which was a TOUGH decision to make!) but I knew it needed to happen and it was almost immediately obvious that it was the right decision to make for my family.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I am very proud that all my kids sleep through the night.

How about instead of proud, be grateful? Because you are a very lucky lady, and it probably has very little to do with anything you did or didn't do.


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## Jane Plane (Jan 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Boy's Mama* 
I'm posting this not because I think that cosleeping and nursing on demand during the night are bad things (of course they're not!) just that it's not always the best option available for every family. Sleep is not a want but a need for everyone and when someone's sleep needs aren't being met, then something needs to change. If that means bring the baby into bed and nurse on demand rather than whatever was going on before, then so be it. If that means trying other sleeping arrangements like maybe the baby sleeping in his own space, then ok. The point is, sleep is not a luxury but just as important as eating healthy food and drinking water and everyone's sleep (including mama's) should be made as high a priority as eating and drinking.

ITA

What a great post.


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## Jane Plane (Jan 30, 2007)

And I agree that having a child sleep through the night is sometimes more an art than a science, and even when you think you've got the science down, why tempt the gods by posting about what great sleepers you've got!


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

i had a horrid sleeper. it does end. it does, it does. hang onto that one phrase that makes you want to deck the person that says it: THIS TOO SHALL PASS.









my ds is six now, and we still cosleep and he does still nurse some, though only for a minute and not every night (but only at the beginning of the night, now).
for comparison, when he was little, it took anywhere from 30-45m to put him down for a nap, and anywhere from 1-3 hours to get him to bed at night. i tried *everything*, i mean it. except CIO. that is the one thing i would not do. though believe me, there were nights that i wanted to, i was so frustrated.

AND i'm a single mama. so it was *always* on me.

so.....i had like six pillows on the bed, and i hid behind them: a fluffy novel, a more in-depth read (something mind-enhancing, lol), water with a sports cap, tissues, and sometimes even hershey kisses







and i ALWAYS made sure my bladder was empty because i never knew how long i'd be there.
there were times, i admit it now, that i lay there, nipple in mouth, breathing deeply, and to all outward appearances relaxing, but with the most horrible violent thoughts in my head. in my head i was pounding the headboard. i was sometimes throwing my kid through the window. i was screaming at the top of my lungs.
but not always. what got me through it was knowing it would end someday and that i was doing for my super-high-need child what he obviously needed.

i'm not even sure when it all ended, but i can assure you it wasn't 14 months. it was more like around age 3 or so. AND it was gradual, or i'd remember when it ended!
anyway he's 6 now and you'd *never* know he had sleep issues. he sleeps solidly through from the time he goes down, till morning. unless he has to pee, or is squirmy for some reason. he's so out of it that if i don't get him up, in his first hour asleep, to pee, he wets the bed. he talks in his sleep at 11ish every night, for a second or two. he's pretty regular.
and i am SO GRATEFUL.

i'm grateful that for whatever reason he needed, i was there for him when he was little.

don't worry, mama!!! it WILL end. i promise. and you are doing a fantastic job.

i'm sorry your DH isn't on board with you. would he be willing to sleep separately for awhile? if you are committed to parenting your ds to sleep, maybe it can be just on you. i did it. it was hard, but it's doable. oh, and it's still OK (here's permission, in case you need it







) to "sleep when the baby sleeps". that's one thing i did, make sleep a priority, and i still do. i'm always the rested mama







maybe one day i will not need 9 hours a night! i got it in fits and starts when my ds was little. now i get it all in a row. woohoo!

hang in there, mama. you're doing just fine.

pamela


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## mango*mama (May 4, 2007)

You know, when I read this, what I read between the lines is -- you're tired, tired of spending so much time in bed nursing your baby back to sleep, tired of long bedtime routines, etc., and are often overwhelmed by other things you need/want to do. If this is the case, I've been there, and I am sure you are frustrated at times, even though you enjoy your child, enjoy nursing, don't want to see your baby cry, and so on.

The last feedings that my son had were the middle-of-the-night ones.

That being said, there is just something special about this whole time.

So try to get support for yourself and keep yourself happy and well-rested and not overwhelmed.

IMO (in agreement with a previous poster) this is what makes the small nuclear family deal very hard for me, at least; so many responsibilities for house/kids falling on one mama. Sometimes there just needs to be more hands helping out! So try to find someone to help you, however you can. Even if it's just encouraging you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
I won't mention the dreaded "F" word, but it seems plausible to me that if a baby nurses to sleep every night, they won't know how to get back to sleep without it. How does any AP parent make peace with this? I want to nurse him to sleep, and nurse him back to sleep, but I worry that I am doing harm.

I know all babies sleep differently, but I _don't_ think its normal or healthy that my 14 month old has only ever slept for a grand total of 2 hours by himself, ever, without me needing to come in and put him back to sleep. I don't think its normal that it takes me upwards of 60-90 minutes every night just to _get_ him asleep. I feel guilty, and sad, because I know he's only doing what he knows how to do, so I must have somehow screwed up. All the articles I read are about infants - its ok for infants not to sleep all night, but no one ever addresses toddlers, who don't _need_ night-time feedings, and night-time wakings.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mercyn* 
i had a horrid sleeper. it does end. it does, it does. hang onto that one phrase that makes you want to deck the person that says it: THIS TOO SHALL PASS.









~~~
i'm not even sure when it all ended, but i can assure you it wasn't 14 months. it was more like around age 3 or so. AND it was gradual, or i'd remember when it ended!
anyway he's 6 now and you'd *never* know he had sleep issues. he sleeps solidly through from the time he goes down, till morning. unless he has to pee, or is squirmy for some reason. he's so out of it that if i don't get him up, in his first hour asleep, to pee, he wets the bed. he talks in his sleep at 11ish every night, for a second or two. he's pretty regular.
and i am SO GRATEFUL.

i'm grateful that for whatever reason he needed, i was there for him when he was little.

don't worry, mama!!! it WILL end. i promise. and you are doing a fantastic job.

i'm sorry your DH isn't on board with you. would he be willing to sleep separately for awhile? if you are committed to parenting your ds to sleep, maybe it can be just on you. i did it. it was hard, but it's doable. oh, and it's still OK (here's permission, in case you need it







) to "sleep when the baby sleeps". that's one thing i did, make sleep a priority, and i still do. i'm always the rested mama







maybe one day i will not need 9 hours a night! i got it in fits and starts when my ds was little. now i get it all in a row. woohoo!

hang in there, mama. you're doing just fine.

pamela


I SO agree with these parts of your post. Your whole post was awesome but these things- I could have written them. I am single also, & Joe was about three-ish when his sleep needs became less...


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mercyn* 
i had a horrid sleeper. it does end. it does, it does. hang onto that one phrase that makes you want to deck the person that says it: THIS TOO SHALL PASS.








and i am SO GRATEFUL.

i'm grateful that for whatever reason he needed, i was there for him when he was little.

pamela

Wow. Super kudos to you, woman! I have no idea how people go at it alone and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.


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## A Boy's Mama (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Ferber is full of it. That's just all there is to it.

Look at it from a biological standpoint. Gorillas don't leave their babies alone so they can learn to put themselves back to sleep. It just happens when they're ready for it to happen.

-Angela

I sincerely don't mean to get argumentative but I just felt that I had to respond to this comment. I don't really understand comparing us to gorillas (or any other animals for that matter). For example, male gorillas often commit infanticide and is that also comparable? So I'm not sure why we should be taking our parenting cues from them.







:


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## liam's mom (Jun 18, 2003)

my first son was never a "great" sleeper, but my second is, by our society's definition of good sleeping, positively horrific. at thirteen months, he naps on me in a sling or mei tai 95% of the time, nurses to sleep at night, and nurses throughout the night. some nights ne nurses every 45 min, others every couple of hours.

in all honesty there is almost nothing i could do--if he woke and wanted to nurse and i tried holding him instead, it was WWIII in the bed--he worked himself up into a hysterical state in a matter of seconds. and then, even when i did nurse him (because of course i always ended up doing that anyway!), it would take him 30-60 minutes to calm down enough to go back to sleep. but if i just nurse him immediately, he pulls off after just a minute or two and rolls over and goes back to sleep.

what i'm trying to say is, when i fought it, and tried to make him do something he wasn't ready to do, it was just awful. but when i changed my outlook, when i remembered that it's easier for me to change my POV than for a baby to change what he is hardwired to do...i became a lot happier. of course there were and are nights when i get frustrated and sad about it, but i really try hard to remember that for whatever reason(s) quinn needs me at night, a lot. depriving him of what he needs is not in his best interest.

in my experience, it most definitely is normal for a 14 month old to wake every 2 hours to nurse. my first did, and obviously my second does. i hear you...i hope my post didn't come across as obnoxious or anything. it's just...i can't change him, so i have to change myself.

hang in there.


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## kir (Apr 29, 2005)

We have had some times lately, with the weather getting warmer, when we didn't give the girls enough water through the day, and they'd wake up a lot to nurse, and finally in frustration we'd offer some water, and then they'd go back to sleep for 4-5 hours. I'm not saying that your baby needs water (teething and growing pains sound more plausible), but i do think that sometimes there are really easy-to-ignore solutions right under my nose, and i miss them b/c i'm so tired. The few times that we "magically" got our girls back to sleep with just a big glass of water, I was struggling and struggling with nursing , and then DH came in with the water and all was well. It's just kind of funny.


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## BoysBoysBoys! (Feb 16, 2007)

I really do think that a good night's sleep is much more valuable than almost any other condition described in this situation. Your present situation seems like a disaster waiting to happen.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I am very proud that all my kids sleep through the night. <snip>

And no, it is NOT normal for a 14 month old to not sleep for more then 2 hours.

Yep, spoken like the mother of easy sleepers. Self righteous is right. I can't stand it when mothers speak up about how BRILLIANT their sleep plan was, when in reality they are just blessed with an easy going child. As you bask in your own glory, stop for a minute to think about those of use with *high needs children* and realize that if we were to do what you are so "proud" of, it would most definitely escalate to CIO. Very quickly, I might add!

What an insensitive post.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Boy's Mama* 
I sincerely don't mean to get argumentative but I just felt that I had to respond to this comment. I don't really understand comparing us to gorillas (or any other animals for that matter). For example, male gorillas often commit infanticide and is that also comparable? So I'm not sure why we should be taking our parenting cues from them.







:

Being that humans are also mammals, I think it is interesting to note that we are also the ONLY ones who force our suckling young to sleep alone. There is not another single lactating mammal on the planet who expects their young to sleep alone. It is a survival instinct, and the advent of walls and baby monitors and pad locks doesn't deviate from the fact that human babies still have this ingrained biological desire to sleep with their mothers out of _survival_. It is impossible to explain to an infant that they won't be carried off by hyenas, or that they won't freeze to death in their sleep. I don't understand the need this cultures places on having infants be independent. I really don't.

Bad sleepers are not made, they are born.

As for the OP, it sounds like teeth. I have SO been where you are (search my posts in this forum and you'll see the months and months of struggles). And right now she has 2 more teeth coming in, and as I type this she is asleep at my side with my nipple in her mouth.


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## leighann79 (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillmamma* 
Another thing I would like to point out is that around that age (between 12ish and 18/20 months), many kids are to the point where they may not be nursing at night so much for hunger/thirst as for comfort due to other reasons. Both of mine got their molars and eye teeth during that time, and woke a lot due to teething pain, nursing seemed to help a lot. Also, many kids are learning to walk, run, talk a lot more, use utensils, etc. so lots of developmental changes going on that could wake them too. Both of mine seem to be settling into sleeping all or most of the night at around 20/21 months. DD is sleeping all night about 1/2 the time now (she has all teeth but the 2 year molars), and it really seems to depend on how well she at her dinner the night before...if she picked at her food, she wakes at 2ish to nurse, otherwise, she goes right back to sleep on her own. So my take is, give it about 6 months, and I bet your child will be waking only once or twice vs. every 2 hours!









This helped me a lot! My DD2 is 17 months old and nursing every 2 hours most nights. I was about ready to start nightweaning because I can't hardly sleep through it anymore. BUT That would take away my tool! If she wouldn't go ahead and sleep then I would be up walking/rocking her instead of cuddled in bed with her. lol Forget that plan!







I'm not taking away her comfort not that she needs it so much.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Just want to put my 2c in here - You know what happens when you don't nurse your kids to sleep? They wake up and ask for their bottle instead.







Seirously some kids just aren't easy sleepers no matter if they co-sleep, sleep alone, nurse to sleep, don't nurse to sleep, whatever. It's just the kid's personality. DS1 was non-cosleeping toddler who would wake up in the middle of the night to play, it had nothing to do with co-sleeping and thus engeneering (sp?) his need to get up and play. (BTW he's 3 years old and has slept through the night for probably the last year, so it really was a phase.) DS2 is a co-sleeping toddler now, he wakes up a few times and nurses back to sleep very EASILY and never fully wakes. Really if you ask me it's all about the kids' personalities.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kids&dog* 
I'd have to agree with you on this. I don't think it's normal that your child needs to be nursed/comforted back to sleep at 14 mnths. I read a statistic once and can't quote it verbatim, but it said something to the effect that about 90% of babies sleep through the night by 12 mos. Even if I'm off by a few percentage points, I've got the gist of that correct.

Mine needs to be, and it is normal. What's not normal is sleep-training and night-time abandonmentC (CIO). Even if "everyone else is doing it."


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kids&dog* 
I'd have to agree with you on this. I don't think it's normal that your child needs to be nursed/comforted back to sleep at 14 mnths. I read a statistic once and can't quote it verbatim, but it said something to the effect that about 90% of babies sleep through the night by 12 mos. Even if I'm off by a few percentage points, I've got the gist of that correct. BUT, who really cares what's normal or not? If the situation is not working for you and your child, I'd try to remedy it.

I wonder about this sort of thing a lot lately. I have a 2 1/2 yr old who has always been a champ of a sleeper, sleeping through the night by 2 mos. and now I have a 2 mo old who doesn't. I'm doing all the same stuff with both, but both kids are reacting to my parenting differently. So, I'm a case in point that all kids are different, and therefore, there's no one answer for all.

In fact, I'd be very curious to see if anyone has polled the AP parents on this site to see how many babies sleep through the night when they co-sleep and how many don't. My guess is (to use an analogy), if there is chocolate cake available everytime a baby wakes up, the baby will continue to wake up.

I've read the complete opposite. It is not biologically normal at that age.


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## A Boy's Mama (May 15, 2007)

I just don't find it very supportive to tell mamas who are really really struggling with sleep deprivation to the point that they are depressed, unable to give their other children the attention they need, etc (all of which I've seen posted in this folder again and again) that they just have to tough it out until the child is 3 or 4 or whenever. I don't understand why mama's need for sleep gets disregarded.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Ds goes to bed with me, because I will be all night getting him down anyway. I'm proud of myself every night, because I made it through the day doing the right thing by baby even when it was hard, or actually impossible. I have gotten a lot of support on these forums that has given me the juice to get through it one.more.time. I don't have solutions for you mama, because I am often there and I am not sure there any other than time. What I do have is confidence that we can all do it, as so many generations before us have.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

You might want to check out this Mothering link for more information, support and encouragement









I would like to ask everyone participating to please remember the MDC User Agreement when posting.

Quote:

*
Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.*

Quote:

*Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view.*

Quote:

*MDC serves an online community of parents, families, and parent, child and family advocates considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions concern the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support, information, and community. Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.*

Any questions, comments or concerns should be PMed to a moderator







Thanks!


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Boy's Mama* 
I just don't find it very supportive to tell mamas who are really really struggling with sleep deprivation to the point that they are depressed, unable to give their other children the attention they need, etc (all of which I've seen posted in this folder again and again) that they just have to tough it out until the child is 3 or 4 or whenever. I don't understand why mama's need for sleep gets disregarded.

I don't disagree with you (how's that for a double negative







) Mama Needs Sleep is a fact of life, as is If Mama Ain't Happy, Ain't Nobody Happy.

I try to be about what is going to work (so everyone can sleep) and work as gently as possible for Baby, mama and all other parties involved. After all, what's gentle for mom is going to be gentle for her baby and vice versa.

'Tough it out' as you put it is sometimes the path of least resistance I think. In my situation it was; we went through several horrible sleep deprived months of new-toddlerhood and teething and essentially rolled with the punches to get through it. It got ugly some nights and some days, but for me and my daughter what ended up working was time, naps, teething pain relief, coffee, complaining to everyone who would listen, some tears shed by both of us and self-forgiveness on my part for the nights I fell short of my ideal.

The situation that AppleCrisp describes sounds close enough to what we went through that I feel comfortable commenting on my experience. I'm not naive, though, and there are certainly parents here that have experiences where other solutions were needed. The first thing to go when I'm tired is perspective, so I think support in the form of "I've been there, it's gets better, hang on" can be helpful to the sleep-deprived. For me, it was also a huge relief to hear from people who had successfully waited-it-out that I didn't *have* to do anything, at least not yet, I could go with whatever got us through the night and have hope that I wasn't ruining my DD's chances for sleep forever.

I also don't see the 'tough it out/wait it out/give it time' approach as a maternal merit badge or anything. If something -- nightweaning, moving Baby to his own bed, Dad night-time parenting -- works, by all means go with it. I just hate to see situations where solutions are applied driven by lack of support, peer pressure or guilt, and the cure turns out to be worse than the disease.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Wow - SO MUCH good advice! Truly, thank you.

The mattress on the floor actually wasn't too bad last night. I read the Jay Gordon article, and after 11 p.m., the all-night boob snack shack was closed. I felt comfortable enough to lay down and let him crawl around and by golly, he did cry a little, but he eventually fall asleep on the mattress with me, all by himself. He woke up twice more and cried, but I was able to get him back to sleep without nursing. He then fell deeply asleep for most of the early morning. I was able to get up, get dressed, and have breakfast without worrying about him - it was truly a novel sensation!

I am dreading tonight, but we'll see what happens.


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## A Boy's Mama (May 15, 2007)

Oh it's so good to hear that you were able to catch up on a little sleep, AppleCrisp. I like your approach and I hope this new sleeping setup works out well.







:


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes, yes! Hurray! Maybe tonight will be even better.

Good good good luck!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Please update us again tomorrow!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I see your is one day older than mine - maybe tonight's my night too!


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

Just wanna say that I have done the same co-sleeping w/both dc and one is a GREAT sleeper (he's just turning 2) and the other is NOT (she is 3). It does depend on your dc!

Applecrisp. Hang in there. It is frustrating having transitions and you'll wanna pull your hair out, then all of a sudden you figure it out. It's great you came here to get advice b/c you can pull out tidbits of what will work for you. I too am in a frustrating stage w/dd. We have a great thing down for a few months, then BAM she'll go through a change and it'll be 2-4 weeks figuring it out again. She's sleeping thru the night but won't go to bed when she needs to or take naps. We KNOW she needs them b/c of behavior during the day. But coming to MDC and just sticking it out helps!

Keep us posted. And give your dc big hugs and kisses from all of us!


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

woohoo, applecrisp, i'm so happy for you! hey, even if tonight is awful, you know now that good nights *can* happen. hang onto that one thought/hope. it will happen again. and again. and then two in a row. and then more. and then one day you will be where some of us are, looking back on that time, going "WHEW! how did i ever survive that?!? i did it! i did it!" with that silly happy dance arms going stirring round and round









aww, thanks so much to the pp's who commented on my post. you made me smile BIG WIDE









thanks!
and you go, applecrisp. hang in there! doesn't it so help to know others are out there? i LOVE these boards!







:
pamela


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Sending *sleep sleep sleep* to your little man. It's a tough job, mama. I think you're doing fabulously.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
The mattress on the floor actually wasn't too bad last night....He then fell deeply asleep for most of the early morning. I was able to get up, get dressed, and have breakfast without worrying about him - it was truly a novel sensation!

Yaaay!







:


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, proceeding as before....I just wait on the mattress with him and he eventually puts himself to sleep which is totally a new phenomenon. It takes him a good hour of rolling around and belly-flops, but it eventually works. He's still been waking every few hours, but puts himself back to sleep as long as I'm nearby.

Thanks all....if not for your advice I'd be persisting with CIO, and we'd probably be miserable.


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 

Thanks all....if not for your advice I'd be persisting with CIO, and we'd probably be miserable.

Yay! Good for you, Applecrisp!


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

awesome!


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## Manfa (May 27, 2007)

I'd just like to say thank you to pretty much everyone for an informative and interesting thread... I felt I was being pressured by various people to let my baby "cry it out" (hes only 5weeks old !!!!!!!!!!) and now I'm so glad I don't do that. A little whimpering or fussing is one thing - often he doesn't even wake properly and goes right back to sleep but if he hasn't settled within a few minutes or if he cries hard I do go to him and now I feel reassured I am doing the right thing which is a good feeling for a new mum like me.

I'd also like to say WELL done to the OP.... sounds like you've had a hard time of it but you're coming through it and thats so nice to hear and so encouraging!

I've never had a baby before but I have had dogs and cats and I don't think that drawing very basic parallels between mammals is misleading or wrong.... Knowing that mammals are just not designed to sleep alone is what made me decide to have my baby beside the bed and not in a nursery. Here's a thought: when I get a new puppy I allow it to sleep in a crate beside my bed. When he has settled in and is sleeping through the night I move the crate gradually to its permanent location. If I cut that much slack to a dog, you can bet I believe it's owed to a human infant!

I'd also like to offer a suggestion to anyone who wants their baby to go to sleep without having to nurse them to sleep. I've recently bought a sheepskin rug for my baby and I lay this on my lap for him to lie on as he is feeding. If he falls asleep at my breast he is less likely to wake when moved because there is less dramatic change in temp, he's not going from warm body>cold cot. Sheepskin helps to keep babies warm in the winter and cool in the summer and its been used for young babies for centuries. Laying him on the rug helps him go into "cosy mode" now too... he seems to associate it with being all cutched up and warm and nursing. Just like with pups, when I want to get rid of a "bad" association, I bring in a new association and wean off the unwanted one.... does that make sense? (NB I use a bit of muslin under his head for safety, in case he turns his face into the sheepskin







)


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## christinelin (Aug 13, 2003)

I just wanted to post my own experience and how our journey has gone, in case it is helpful to anyone.

With my oldest, I had a much more mainstream perspective. I expected to have the baby in a cosleeper until, say 6 months, when she would, of course, be sleeping through the night in her own crib.







Needless to say, I had quite a comeupance. She was in our bed that first night and by 5 months was waking literally every 20 minutes unless I was next to her. Everyone we spoke with said CIO, which we did, and I really regret it. It never really worked. She cried constantly, and I was hysterical, too. She still didn't sleep through the night until after 2 years.

With my second, I decided I would do it all differently. I nursed my DS back to sleep every time. He, too, woke constantly -- every 45 minutes or so. When I was about halfway through my pregnancy with my third, my DH took over putting my DS to sleep and with the nursing to sleep association broken, he started sleeping longer stretches (a couple of hours at a time). We moved him to a bed in a room with his sister around 2 years (he was still welcome in our bed) and then nightweaned him around 27 months. He has slept throught the night fairly consistently since around 2 1/2.

My third child followed the same pattern. I nursed him back to sleep every time and he woke every 45 minutes until I came to bed. We have just started having DH do bedtime and he, too, is sleeping longer stretches.

I guess this is a short way of saying that based on my family I do think that Ferber is right: kids who are nursed to sleep may have a hard time resettling themselves if the nipple isn't there when they wake (I say "may" because I know plenty of kids nursed back to sleep who can resettled at least a couple of times before needing to nurse again.).

For me, the next question is, is a nursing to sleep association a problem. In a biological sense, I don't believe it is (I highly second the recommendation to read "Our Babies, Ourselves" by Meredith Small.) I think this is the way babies have evolved to behave for a reason and I think that if we can accept it, they will either grow out of it or be able to more easily accept an alternate method of falling asleep eventually.

The other challenge is meeting the sleep needs of the other members of the household. I have done this by going to sleep very early (usually after DS's first waking). That means my evening time alone has been just 45 minutes, which sort of sucks, but I also know this stage of life is fleeting and I believe that meeting my children's needs is crucial. I also believe that you can change sleep associations much more easily at, say 1 1/2 or 2 years, if constantly nursing back to sleep doesn't work for your family.

Good luck to everyone who struggles with sleeping. It's a hard road, but I promise that they do sleep eventually!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *christinelin* 
I expected to have the baby in a cosleeper until, say 6 months, when she would, of course, be sleeping through the night in her own crib.









Me too, exactly! Ah, what a good hamper the cosleeper makes...


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

Wanted to say that I also tried to read the Baby Whisperer - I really didn't like that one, in fact I felt like it was worse than Ferber. If your baby doesn't do X,Y, and Z on this timeline, its because YOU didn't do something right. And most stupid, her motto is "start as you mean to continue" - i.e. don't start co-sleeping and then be surprised when it sucks and you have difficulty moving the baby into a bed. What new parent knows how they want things in to be in months or years from now? Kids change all the time. And she calls night-nursing parents "naive" for "whipping out the boob" whenever the baby wants it.


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## WillyMom (May 1, 2007)

We are mammals and animals. Babies are the truest most natural state of humans. Surviving on instinct.
Before DS was born I had NO intention of cosleeping or BF past 6 months and assumed that by 12 weeks he would be sleeping through the night.
Well 10 months later we co-sleep about 70-80% of the time and am still BF and BFing to sleep.
I learned about co-sleeping the hard way. I had my DS in a separate room in a crib and he woke up a lot. Finally I said I cant get up anymore. As soon as I brought him in he relaxed and slept. I am lucky that when we co-sleep, he sleeps for long stretches, 3-5 hours.
My point to the OP is, Good for you for following your instincts. My DH too at first was not on board with my "Earth Mom" parenting. But just tonight he asked if we should buy a cosleeper or rails for the bed. He realizes that our DS does not want to be in a separate room alone. I say "Do you think our ancestors had their babies in a different cave?". Yes I wish he would sleep for 10 hours in his crib. But in reality as a PP said, being with Mama at night is what babies are hard wired to do.
I have to read Dr.Gordons article. I am so glad that you stuck to your principles and didnt CIO. The reality is that all methods will have some crying even stuff in the NCSS by Pantley. But I truly believe that a baby crying with Mama holding him b/c the boobies have gone night night is MUCH different than being alone in a dark room left to cry.
Continued sleep and luck to you!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

3 DD here, 3 different sleepers.

1st one took the longest to sleep through the night. But now . . .she is 5 (in Feb.)-- we read to her, then she reads to herself (sometimes for an hour







), then turns off her light and SLEEPS!

2nd one (2) co-sleeps with DH. Does not sleep thru the night, but only wakes 1 or 2 Xs.

They really improved sleep once I nightweaned (I cannot sleep thru nursing, and they woke up hourly most nights).

23rd (3 months) falls asleep (nursing or being carried), then I put her tummy down in the crib. (I WISH I'd done this with my first two.) If I hold her she gets restless. She sleeps for 6 hours, nurses right back to sleep (we co-sleep at that point), then sleeps 2 more hours. She wakes every hour to nurse. She may start waking more once she starts teething.


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