# Do you think I'm overreacting?



## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Just to preface: if you've been molested, this might bother you.

We recently (less than a month ago) moved into a kind of communal living thing. the idea is for us to lower our living expenses and have a rare opportunity to catch up financially and save some money. The top floor is all families with children and there are four single men who live downstairs.

There is a family that just moved in here last week....a mom and 2 little girls. The baby is a yr old and the other little girl is 7 or 8. My first impression of the mom was that she was articulate, friendly, and on point with her parenting.

But then two days ago I noticed that she was letting one of the other ladies hold her baby almost constantly. This lady is older and her children are grown....I don't really know how they are allowed to live here since it's jsut her and her husband, but there is definitely something "off" about this couple, and others have noticed it as well.

I probably should have minded my business, but I took the mom aside and mentioned to her a couple of things that I had noticed in the interactions between this older couple and my kids, and that she might not want to leave the kids around her unsupervised (taking them out to the palyground, to the laundry room with her etc). I don't even let them hold my dd....I don't freaking know them like that.

Well, fast forward to yesterday. I went downstairs with my kids (they have an open play area inside) and she was down there with her kids. Her younger dd was dressed in a one piece outfit without feet, and was outside on the porch with the older lady,coatless and barefoot. It was below freezing temps yesterday. The older dd was sitting on the lap of one of the single men who lives downstairs, sitting facing him with her legs straddling him. I didn't even know what to say. The guy was tickling her and had his hands under the back of her shirt.

Is that not COMPLETELY inappropriate? The mom does not know this guy from Adam. I know I tend to be oversensitive to men's interactions with my kids because of my own bad experiences. But does that not strike anyone else as being way, way beyond normal boundaries?


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Way beyond inappropriate.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

If you suspect the children are being abused, call children's services. Don't just post about it on a message board.

I had a 'friend', who was either absolutely clueless or did not care. I spoke with her once about the situation she had placed her child in, and she agreed with me (I won't get into details). I stopped in for a random visit a few weeks later and was agast that nothing had changed.

I made a call, it was taken seriously, the investigation was thorough, the child was removed from the home.

The child was never returned to her care as far as I know.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers*
> 
> If you suspect the children are being abused, call children's services. Don't just post about it on a message board.


This. The situation you described wouldn't throw up any red flags for me if these were not strangers, but it sounds like they are... Are you sure the new family didn't already know this couple? Maybe they have some history & are good friends??? If not though, I would deem that situation completely inappropriate...


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


See and this is why I posted. You're saying that if they were good friends you would be ok with that. I would not even be ok with DP doing that when dd was 8 yrs old. Of course I'm projecting since she's still a baby so I can't say for certain, but that type of interaction between any man and any little girl, regardless of their connection would make me uncomfortable. I actually had to go back on up with the kids because it was bothering me so much i was beginning to have a panic attack. So I realize I might not be judging the situation correctly.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 To me, that seems extremely inappropriate. The only person allowed to touch dd's bare back is DH and that's because I would know he was doing it for a legitimate reason. My dd is 7. I would call and say that you saw inappropriate behavior. You are not being completely paranoid. Now, I would say you may be sensitive in saying dp can't do that with his own dd, but honestly, you aren't paranoid. Trust your instincts and call someone to stop this before it becomes something truly devastating to this child.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

During the day they have a couple of people in the office....one is like a social worker/case manager type of person and the other one is the manager who oversees the whole place but mainly only seems to deal with the numbers, like the residents' income and that type of thing. At night they usually have someone there but they are basically just underpaid security people who sit in there and watch tv. I have said something twice now, once during the day to the manager (about the wife saying something offensive to me) and then last night I went to the office to get change for the laundry room and I told the woman what was going on. Both times their faces registered shock, but nothing seems to have happened. Do I assume that they have been notified (and given the way this place is set up I'm sure they are considered mandated reporters) or do I make a call myself?

And I just had an experience with CPS so I don't trust them at all and know how awful it can be to have them in your life. The mom just seems so...clueless, though.like she genuinely does not seem to realize that allowing people to walk around a public place where who knows what kind of people are living here with her baby, is not safe.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> See and this is why I posted. You're saying that if they were good friends you would be ok with that. I would not even be ok with DP doing that when dd was 8 yrs old. Of course I'm projecting since she's still a baby so I can't say for certain, but that type of interaction between any man and any little girl, regardless of their connection would make me uncomfortable. I actually had to go back on up with the kids because it was bothering me so much i was beginning to have a panic attack. So I realize I might not be judging the situation correctly.


I don't know. I have very confused feelings about my childhood (& hearing this makes me even more mixed up!) but I know that would be considered typical within my family growing up. However, there are A LOT of things about my interactions with family growing up that make me VERY uncomfortable. I don't know how I'd feel about "any man & any little girl" because I only have a 2yo boy and it's hard for me to imagine, but I can't say I'd think it was weird if DH & my hypothetical daughter were interacting like this. Basically I guess I'm saying you can't trust how I read the situation... trust your OWN instincts though...

ETA: I just asked my DH & he feels this totally crosses the line (probably even if it was him & his own daughter)...


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


yeah and see like I said the upstairs is private and only residents are allowed....you're not even supposed to have visitors up there, and there are no kids allowed where the men live. this all took place in the common areas, outside, in the playarea etc. so I can't say with any certainty that he is molesting her. it could just be a man who does not have appropriate boundaries and a mom who is clueless or something. I still think it's inappropriate, but I can't guarantee that there is anything going on based just on what I have seen. The little girl seems to like him...she seems very needy and wants attention from everyone. She will even knock on people's doors and ask them (adults even) to come out and play or read to her.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> See and this is why I posted. You're saying that if they were good friends you would be ok with that. I would not even be ok with DP doing that when dd was 8 yrs old. Of course I'm projecting since she's still a baby so I can't say for certain, but that type of interaction between any man and any little girl, regardless of their connection would make me uncomfortable. I actually had to go back on up with the kids because it was bothering me so much i was beginning to have a panic attack. So I realize I might not be judging the situation correctly.


DD1 is almost 8, so about the same age. This interaction, if it were with someone she knew, wouldn't bother me much. I might find the tickling under her shirt a little weird, but if she didn't happen to be wearing a shirt, the exact same scenario wouldn't even make me blink. The legs straddling a grown man doesn't bother me, as I know dd1 jumps on people like that sometimes. The tickling her naked back doesn't even register on my radar. I just sometimes get a bit odd about people going under a child's clothes...otoh, dd1 may well ask someone to tickle her, and not want them to keep their hands on the fabric, so....yeah - if it were someone she knew, it wouldn't likely bother me.

It does seem like an odd interaction with a stranger, but then...dd1 takes a long time to warm up to people. I could see that with ds1 at the same age, easy.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

That's very innapropriate and would not fly with me.

He could be harmless or not, but I don't take chances.

I would never even think to interact that way with someone elses child.

His reasoning alone, makes him suspect to me. He could be getting her comfortable and trusting him for

other shady stuff later.


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## PiggyPiggyOinkOink (Aug 5, 2010)

Don't let your own involvement with CPS cloud your judgment. This is something that needs to be reported if you feel something is off. Call now. They should have a 24 hour reporting line.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PiggyPiggyOinkOink*
> 
> Don't let your own involvement with CPS cloud your judgment. This is something that needs to be reported if you feel something is off. Call now. They should have a 24 hour reporting line.


Agreed. If your instinct says something inappropriate may be going on, you owe it to that child to report it. Better safe than sorry; I'm sure you can report anonymously, or ask someone else who lives there to make the call.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

None of what you said raises any red flags for me. I'm sorry. You probably want validation but I just don't see anything here that is worrisome to me.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I can't say for sure since I didn't witness it with my own two eyes, but I'm pretty darn sure that that would have struck me as way off, and suspicious. The baby out with uncovered feet and hands in below freezing weather also doesn't seem cool to me! Going on what you've posted I'd say yes, make the call to CPS.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
> 
> None of what you said raises any red flags for me. I'm sorry. You probably want validation but I just don't see anything here that is worrisome to me.


no, not at all. Especially after the fiasco I endured because of an unwarranted CPS call I really, really *really* don't want to make that kind of call. I will if I have to, but i'm not at all eager to. And in a case like this where I'm leaning towards thinking the worst, I'd much rather be wrong.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dd hops on my dh's lap in various positions and if she were on his lap facing him and he were tickling her backk even under her shirt, it wouldn't bother me. Tickling a child's bare back and sitting like that would be sexual with an adult, but would not necessarily be with a child. Just like when I kiss my toddler's tummy it isn't sexual but it would be with an adult. It would bother me however if it were an adult other than my dh, particularly someone I didn't know very well. And the barefoot baby in the freezing weather is also off. I guess this seems very weird to me.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would completely flip out if someone put their hands in my child's shirt even if it was just to tickle her. That is completely inappropriate and I think you should call CPS about possible abuse and let the office staff know that you saw the child out without a coat or shoes in below freezing temperatures and see if they can give her a referral to get the child proper clothing.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

A man tickling an 8 year old girl under the back of her shirt doesn't really bother me as long as the man isn't acting odd in any way. If he is smiling strangely or seem to be enjoying it in a non-appropriate way I would do something. I honestly can't imagine the police or anyone else getting involved over a report of a man tickling a little girl's back.

Do you know how well the lady with the kids know the man who was ticking the child? Could they know one another better than you think they do? I wouldn't want a stranger tickling my daughters like that but if it was someone I knew and trusted I wouldn't mind at all.

Having the baby outside in the cold without appropriate clothing is an issue but unless you see it over and over again I wouldn't worry all that much about it.


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## Mammajamma (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow! the way you tell it - I am envisioning every predator in that communal situation has already honed in on this unsuspecting single mom with her two little girls! I would not call cps immediately but I would have made very clear to the mother what you saw and also to make it clear ( during the situation ) to that man that was tickling that little girl- what he was doing is completely inappropriate ( so that he would know that others are watching him closely) and to make him uncomfortable enough to stop his completely inappropriate behavior with the child. He may not have realized what he was doing was wrong- but a stranger touching my daughter in that way would be treading very dangerously ( and she is 8). My hubby was as shocked as me when reading this and mentioned that " communal living situations are prime areas that creepos target to get close to those who are more vulnerable- that compounded with the fact that studies show creeps will seek out single mothers to molest their children". I just really think that there should be a very clear boundary set especially when children are involved about how the communal living will take place.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
> 
> None of what you said raises any red flags for me. I'm sorry. You probably want validation but I just don't see anything here that is worrisome to me.


I agree. Without more I wouldn't call cps. An accusation of child molestation can really devastate a person's life and I'd be really careful about making such an accusation. I do think it's appropriate to tell the girl's mother and to keep an eye out if you're worried and certainly to call cps if you have a real reason to believe she is being molested.

There is a little girl at my son's school who I hardly have any relationship with at all, but whenever she sees me she'll run over and throw her arms around me. And if I'm standing still, like talking to someone, she'll lean her head on my side and just stay there. It really kinda bothers me and definitely tramples all over my boundaries but I feel powerless to get out of it. I don't want to hurt her feelings bc I suspect she's not getting a lot of motherly affection at home. So unless you saw him being physically aggressive or manipulative with her, I'd say you don't really know how that came to pass, kwim?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

all i know is that if there was anything suspicious about taht guy my dd would be miles away from him. not letting him tickle her least of all sitting on his lap. she's always had a thing about people even as a baby.

neither for me would any of what you have described be cause for concern.

instead i would really appreciate the trust between both of them.


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## AmaraMonillas (Apr 7, 2010)

If I had witnessed it I may have felt funny about it, but as a rule I don't find that interaction inherently inappropriate.

When I was working with children at the YMCA in high school I was completely shocked when someone let me know having a child straddle my lap could be considered inappropriate, it's a very natural way to interact with a kid who wants to sit with you. I had a very safe childhood in a physically affectionate family and made friends with adults easily, so I had many similar interactions that truly were innocent.

This is not to say this situation doesn't warrant attention, just that it isn't definitely wrong.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> instead i would really appreciate the trust between both of them.


The little girl has lived there for one week, what healthy bond could they have?

From my readings, pedophiles target children in single families, especially one where mothers are also needy and likely to burry their heads in the sand.

This man should not have his hands inside that girls shirt, nor have her on his lap. He does not know her, she does not know him. It is inappropriate.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I'm trying to figure out the connection between this incident and the creepy older couple that you said you had bad vibes about. The couple that you talked to the mother about. What was their role in this?

The incident doesn't immediately raise any alarms for me, but I would have to be in that situation and know the dynamics better. I tend to say go with your instincts, talk to the mother, but there is no evidence of molestation, if that is the only thing you're seeing. I don't know much about this subject, so I don't know if I'm using the correct term, but did it seem like the single guy was "grooming" (is that the right term??) the little girl?


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers*
> 
> The little girl has lived there for one week, what healthy bond could they have?


Could they have already known each other before they moved here??


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm really confused (but I think that's my general state this morning)

My DD is overly friendly and is always jumping on our male friends - I don't ever think anything of it honestly. Are you positive the mom doesn't know this man? Was the little girl outside with no shoes on for a long time? Is this man completely different from the weird husband of the woman you're talking about? Because I don't see how any of it really warrants a CPS call - I think that these kind of assumptions can really mess up peoples lives! I think that you need more information, or at least to talk to the mother more.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

I guess I'm curious as to what exactly the communal living situation is? Is it a group of like-minded individuals sharing a home or is it more of an institutional type thing where people from all backgrounds can just sort of end up? If the former, I might not be as concerned, but if the latter and you don't get to "approve" who joins I'd definitely call asap.


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## Petronella (Aug 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pjs*
> 
> I guess I'm curious as to what exactly the communal living situation is? Is it a group of like-minded individuals sharing a home or is it more of *an institutional type thing* where people from all backgrounds can just sort of end up? If the former, I might not be as concerned, but if the latter and you don't get to "approve" who joins I'd definitely call asap.


It seems to be a homeless shelter. Having families under the same roof as single men sounds like a terrible arrangement, but I guess that's what you find in some areas of the country. I can only hope that the people working there are aware of what a risky environment this can potentially be for children, and can take steps to curb this man's behavior, talk to the mother, and alert the authorities.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

You don't call CPS with an "accusation" like some people are saying here, you call them if you suspect there may be something serious wrong.

Also, this isn't the couple, right? The woman was with the baby and then another man had the older girl. Chances are low that this mom knew both the couple AND the single neighbor guy before moving in, right? And even if they knew him, that is very inappropriate, both the position they were in and the hands under her shirt.

Who knows if this man is molesting the girl. But it sure sounds like he is grooming her! Tickling is a common part of grooming a child for abuse, pushing them further and further with their boundaries. Doing it in the common area is also not a surprise, because part of what molesters do is gain the confidence of the parent.

I'd call CPS about it.

You can also check the sex offender website just to see if any of these people have criminal convictions already. If you can, search by name because a lot of offenders don't keep up with reporting their current addresses. If they're not on there it means nothing (only a small percentage of offenders are listed), but if they are it would help you make the call. Here's the site for your state:
http://www.sex-offender.vsp.virginia.gov/sor/


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

No, it's not a bunch of friends who all went in together on a great house...I wish lol!

Its not an institution but its supposed to be targeted to low income families so while there are families who are just struggling there are also some people here who aren't exactly the cream of the crop. They do have requirements like any apartment building would...income, background checks etc. but I don't think they are that thorough given some of the characters that live here. Plus the downside is that we (the families) share one big kitchen area with the guys downstairs so there is a certain amount of interaction that is unavoidable.

But no, we don't get to pick our neighbors, and no one knows anyone else. It's not like we are all together all day every day but like I said at night the downstairs is usually busy and people mingle.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

*


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## heathergirl67 (Apr 1, 2010)

I also encourage you to call CPS and also tell whoever is running the house about your concerns. From what you posted it doesn't sound that like situation alone would get CPS to remove the kids. But it would probably mean a visit and them expressing their concerns to the mom. Hopefully that will be the wake-up call she needs since, as you said, she seems kind of innocently clueless. And if anything bad ever did happen to that family, then at least you'll know that you did everything you could.

I know it sounds like you have a lot on your plate as it is, but maybe you could try to befriend the mom? Then you two would be hanging out supervising the kids together, you can develop more of a relationship so she takes your concerns more seriously, and through positive peer pressure she might start behaving a little more protectively, as she sees you do.

Please let us know how things go and what you decide to do!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I would watch closer, but what you said does not bother me.

I remember straddling my grandparents, cousins, aunts, and uncles to play horse riding games that ended in tickling. I have video of this! It was and is never sexual. You see straddling as sexually but if they were just sitting on a lap it could be sexual also. Also, if he was just tickling her could the loose fitting t-shirt wiggled up with a wiggling child? I can easily see this happening.

Also, how do you know that she doesn't have a prior history with these people?

Also we don't know this man's history. Is he from a different culture? Does he have kids of his own?

If this is the only time seeing the younger child in bare feet/not appropriately dress just watch. What if this child has sensory integration issues? Did the child seem uncomfortable? Miserable and being ignored? Are they a Houdini that manage to strip the clothes off? If the child was happy then I would have worried about the lack of socks and care.

I don't doubt the people are off...I would trust my gut on that, but being off does not mean a sexual predator.

Also, what type of offensive thing did the lady say to you?


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## dakotablue (Jun 21, 2009)

You said the DD is overly friendly? This would worry me in that she could have already be targeted or would be easily targeted.

Has this guy always thrown you off (gut wise)?

I would keep a close watch and consider reporting once you have more evidence. I don't think calling yet without more will do any good, but those are BIG red flags for me. Keep a record of what you see....

I hope this is all just a misunderstanding

SIL still sits on FIL's lap sometimes (she's now 17, but I've known her since 13) I've always thought that was off, he would rub her under her shirt to give her chills on her back. There is nothing going on there, but I've already made clear to Dh that's not going to happen if we have DDs.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> No, it's not a bunch of friends who all went in together on a great house...I wish lol!
> 
> ...


This has me worried...You seem to have the face of a molester as a guy or creepy person.

Molesters fit in. They are often married.

http://www.corr.state.mn.us/level3/pdf/characteristics%20and%20behavioral%20indicators%20of%20adults%20who%20molest%20children.pdf


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
> Also, if he was just tickling her could the loose fitting t-shirt wiggled up with a wiggling child? I can easily see this happening.
> 
> Also, how do you know that she doesn't have a prior history with these people?
> ...


To answer your questions: he made a comment, I don't remember the exact words now, but it was something along the lines of "I'm going to tickle you under your shirt." I remember the comment because when I heard "under your shirt" that was when I freaked out and went back in because I couldn't handle it.

I am 99% sure that there is no prior history. When she was moving in her friend an older lady introduced herself to me and told me to be friendly to her because she was nervous about moving into a new place with her girls.

The man is not from a different culture and I don't really interact with him except to say hello in passing so I have no idea if he has children. But if he does they don't live with him.

I have not spent enough time hanging around these people to know them really, really well so I have no idea how she dresses the baby on a regular basis. But I do know that the wife of the older couple had the baby outside on the porch while she and the husband were smoking, and the mom was in the house not even with the baby. The baby was crying and people were telling her to bring her in and go find the mother but she kept insisting "oh she's ok."

The comment she made to me: "you and your boyfriend make such pretty babies. I wish I could put J's (her husband) sperm inside you so you could have him a baby for me to take care of." Um, creepy!!!!


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dakotablue*
> 
> SIL still sits on FIL's lap sometimes (she's now 17, but I've known her since 13) I've always thought that was off, he would rub her under her shirt to give her chills on her back. There is nothing going on there, but I've already made clear to Dh that's not going to happen if we have DDs.


My boys are pretty young still, but I am very physical with them. Not rough-housing type physical, but rubbing their backs and cuddling and patting their bottoms. lol I doubt I'll be bottom-patting them when they're 14, but I do hope to still have some of that physical closeness (though I know for some people backing off from that is a healthy part of growing up) and I'd really hate to feel like I had to curtail that because someone might think I was molesting them. Yuck. Well, I guess I'm lucking I'm a woman so people are not nearly as likely to worry about me that way. But I feel bad for fathers (and their children) who feel like they have to monitor their innocent and loving affectionate behavior bc someone might get freaked out if they saw it. I see rubbing one's child's back as nothing but sweet whether it is over or under the shirt. Of course, if it's part of a whole pathological way of relating to the child then it's bad, but I can't see why that behavior in itself could be seen as a bad thing.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> To answer your questions: he made a comment, I don't remember the exact words now, but it was something along the lines of "I'm going to tickle you under your shirt." I remember the comment because when I heard "under your shirt" that was when I freaked out and went back in because I couldn't handle it.


I think you should stay if something like that happens again. If he feels that there's someone watching and keeping track of him, he's less likely to cross the line and if he does, then you won't have such a hard time figuring out whether to call cps. Did you leave her alone with him? If you're feeling worried for her safety I just don't see leaving at the first sign of danger to be the best move.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...












A bond so close in a week that he feels the need to tickle her under her shirt while she straddles him. Absolutely not.

It's unacceptable and I can't see how any parent would be okay with a stranger being that close to your child.

OP, I hope your able to get the mother to take this seriously.

Maybe no molestation has occured yet, but I feel he may be seeing how far he can get with her and because the mother is kinda out of it, he probably feels she's a good candidate.


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## Lobeebee (Apr 4, 2010)

Grown people need to be very respectful and set boundaries with children re touching -- tickling is pleasurable and bonding and also intimate, there is a definite out of control dynamic to it.

Yes it is true "riding games" can involve straddling, but riding games usually end for children around the age of 4 or 5. I don't think a girl sitting on a man's lap need be a red flag but the situation you described was not simply sitting on the lap.

From what you tell of the little girls' neediness and the mom's obtuseness I wouldn't be surpised if she were not already being abused, by this guy. He *says* "I'm gonna tickle you under your shirt?"

RED FLAG RED FLAG-- this is both preparing and slightly threatening her -- the situation is outta control, she is laughing -- he in power, she is not. He does not have the right to touch her body. He isn't asking (which would also be inappropriate). He's *telling*.
.
I have been around the block and then some re how sex abuse happens, how others ignore it and it can continue til the kid is grown right under everyones noses. Then everyone thinks about all the littel off things and how they shoulda known.
People who haven't ever experienced it or been close to a situation where it happened, may think this type behavior is fine, but no it *isn't*.

.Grooming, boundaries crossed, inattentive parent, needy children, adult with
easy access and opportune moments galore with children -- it's all there.
Tiickling is frequently grooming --a way to get
the child comfortable with being touched by you, seeing how far you can go and where, the child's limits (tickling can start to hurt) -- enjoying a bonding moment with the child -- but the child is vulnerable and I am sorry
but alot of sex abuse starts with tickling.

Please follow your gut for this child's sake. The mom may not ever have really thought about certain things, maybe b/c she is too stressed or has her own unaddressed baggage etc., or is simply selfish and doesn't want to lose free babysitters, but please talk to her and see if any of it strikes a chord with her, a chord either of emotion, or reason. 
Most men don't want to be seen as in any way inappropriate with a child, and they would have no problem being playful with a little girl in a nurturing, playful way that does not involve the 7/8 yr old kid straddling him and him tickling her under her shirt. That just wouldn't happen with a safe man. The fact he is acting this way in public may just show he can't help himself (NOT that he is a "safe/innocent" guy.) And/or he is used to acting this way when he gets a chance with kids, due to his wife's complete acceptance and peoples reluctance to address things for many reasons (it's not easy to address something like this when you live there, don't know the guy well, it's not your kid, etc., and others probably would feel the same way).

I'm not saying for sure he is abusing her but the situation absolutely merits close monitoring.
It also doesn't matter if she asked him, "tickle me", whatever, he is the adult. Most decent grown men would be like, no, and redirect the activity/discussion, and continue interacting with the child but with boundaries established.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah no way would my husband or any other man I know allow a girl other than his own daughter to sit on his lap like that, or tickle a girl other than his own daughter like that.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

Okay well now that I've read more, it's kind of strange. The entire house seems sort of strange actually


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I would find that really concerning as well. It definitely seems off to me.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cascadian*
> 
> As a CPS worker...you'd need more than that. Someone tickling a child - who was obviously not in distress - with other adults (including the mom around) is not grounds for a SA investigation, unless you had other solid, tangible evidence of misconduct when you made the initial call. You don't know any of their relationships. If a CPS worker was allowed to, s/he'd ask the cops to run a background check on the guys (if you had names and birthdates) to see if there were any prior or current alerts wrt kids. Even then, it's an invasion of privacy if ''nothing' (in quotes) else was amiss. The child in no socks *may* be grounds for a 'neglect' talk, and a way to get in the door, but....that's grey territory, as I'm sure most people here can agree. Mom's boundaries do 'seem' off and it could be related to anything (her childhood, mental health, developmental issues). On the other hand...maybe she DOES know the guy beyond what you know? Who knows.


You're basing all of that on this being the only report for this child. None of us know her history. What if there are other, similar reports on this child already? What if another neighbor notices something over the line and reports it in a few weeks--now you're building a history. It's not just about this one situation, it's about being able to document what is going on so IF any thing happens (which hopefully it won't) then there will be a trail for the CPS worker to follow to provide help or services to this child.

The safest thing to do, as far as the child goes, is report it and let CPS screen it out or not. Just in case this is not the first time this child has been in a questionable situation. A girl who is willing to let basically a stranger do that after just one week is a child who may well already have been groomed by another predator in the past.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Completely inappropriate and I'm shocked that anyone would think otherwise. A prepubescent girl straddling a strange adult man? Heck yea! Neither one of them know healthy, respectful boundaries. The tickling UNDER the shirt is icing on the cake!


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## elisheva (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> . The little girl seems to like him...she seems very needy and wants attention from everyone. She will even knock on people's doors and ask them (adults even) to come out and play or read to her.


I haven't read to the end of the thread yet, but this caught my eye. This breaks my heart. THESE are the kinds of kids molesters pray on. Report what's going on. Even if nothing is going on now, something *will* happen. If the mom isn't meeting her kids' needs (and I understand that her circumstances must be difficult), SOMEONE has to protect her children. Please, report.


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## elisheva (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

To those of you who said stay and watch, I can't. I'll have a panic attack. Men touching little girls is a major trigger for me.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> To those of you who said stay and watch, I can't. I'll have a panic attack. Men touching little girls is a major trigger for me.


I understand, but someone needs to watch out for this little girl.

Have you decided what you're going to do?


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Blind posting OP, but I do think you should call CPS on the mom for not properly supervising her children, and letting them go around with potentially inappropriate caregivers. The little girl's interaction with the man, tickling, straddling, etc., is weird. Very weird. Very inappropriate. Some people just have terrible boundaries though. Are people screened before living in this place? Can you find out if he has a weird history. I would be so concerned that if he is a sexual predator, this would be exactly the kind of child he'd prey upon. As long as he isn't doing anything blatantly abusive though, I think the biggest issue for CPS is with mom's lack of supervision...


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)




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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> To those of you who said stay and watch, I can't. I'll have a panic attack. Men touching little girls is a major trigger for me.


If you ever see this again, you say, loudly "Do you think that is appropriate?" to the man and you stare at him a good hard stare (the Mama stare if you will) until he looks away. If he asks as if you've been rude/accused him of something, act shocked and say "my goodness, it was only a question, aren't you sensitive!?" as if he had something to hide. Then you can say something like "come on honey, lets go have ice-cream/find your mom/play with the baby/pick flowers/whatEVER. You don't have to stand and watch him do it, nor do you have to walk away full of dread for her. Stand up to him, let him know he's being observed by someone who isn't willing to ignore things. I was abused for 7 years, i know this is hard, but YOU CAN DO IT! 

Honestly, without SEEing it, i can't say if it was inappropriate. I certainly tickle both my DD's on the bare backs (i was actually taught this at a council-sponsored toddler group during a session on massage and physical closeness!) but then part of the reason i do it is because my DD's enjoy it and i don't WANT them to seek that sort of attention from potentially dangerous strangers. Straddling is not sexual for the child, and in all but the rarest cases isn't sexual for the adult when a child does it. I mean DP carries DD2 in the wrap and has carried DD1 in the meitai - he doesn't think of her "straddling" his torso/back, she's just in the carrier. I don't mean this COULD NOT be inappropriate, i just mean unless i'm there to see it i cannot tell, yk? I get that him being a stranger is a problem but a) strangers who aren't paedophiles AREN'T PAEDOPHILES, and over-familiar behaviour from children won't make them into one and b) kids do follow their guts much more easily than adults - i'm not saying that means he's ok, because she thinks he is, BUT to HER he might not feel like a stranger, y/k. If a strange child straddled DP he would be uncomfortable, but he wouldn't reject the child harshly OR abuse it.

I really think you can feel empowered in this situation. Think about it - YOU are able to see what is happening, YOU are able to help this family, whether it be watchfulness, or a CPS call if you end up feeling it is warranted, you are in a positive position, not the position of a victim (i know SA survivors can go back to victimhood when they see triggering behaviour in others, but you don't have to, you're not that kid anymore, you're powerful!).

If i were you i would:

1) be watchful

2) give the little girls the time i could when appropriate (read to her if you're reading to your own etc.)

3) call anyone around her behaving oddly on how they are behaving

4) IF you feel you need to call CPS, ask to discuss this with an experienced CPS employee - tell them plainly what you saw and give them the "heads up". Sadly neglected children ARE candy for paedophiles because they are so desperate for intimacy, connection and attention from adults.


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## Lobeebee (Apr 4, 2010)

**Everything** Spring Lily said.

This may be the only thing can be done at this time for this child, but it should be done.

What kind of man would make mention/notice or make a point of saying he is now putting his hands "under the shirt" on a 7 year old. Very disturbing. Blah. Please do follow your gut on this.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


> Honestly, without SEEing it, i can't say if it was inappropriate. I certainly tickle both my DD's on the bare backs (i was actually taught this at a council-sponsored toddler group during a session on massage and physical closeness!) but then part of the reason i do it is because my DD's enjoy it and i don't WANT them to seek that sort of attention from potentially dangerous strangers. Straddling is not sexual for the child, and in all but the rarest cases isn't sexual for the adult when a child does it. I mean DP carries DD2 in the wrap and has carried DD1 in the meitai - he doesn't think of her "straddling" his torso/back, she's just in the carrier. I don't mean this COULD NOT be inappropriate, i just mean unless i'm there to see it i cannot tell, yk? I get that him being a stranger is a problem but a) strangers who aren't paedophiles AREN'T PAEDOPHILES, and over-familiar behaviour from children won't make them into one and b) kids do follow their guts much more easily than adults - i'm not saying that means he's ok, because she thinks he is, BUT to HER he might not feel like a stranger, y/k. If a strange child straddled DP he would be uncomfortable, but he wouldn't reject the child harshly OR abuse it.


There is a huge difference between straddling a child who is a baby or toddler and straddling a 7 or 8 year old. HUGE difference. You can't compare straddling an 8-yo to carrying a baby in a meitai. Those are two completely and totally different things. My husband and both hold our 2 1/2 year old son straddling on our lap sometimes (mostly for comfort, he finds it comforting to bury his head in our shoulder). Our 6-yo daughter will sit on our laps for stories or during church, but almost never straddling, just regular facing forward. Our 8-yo doesn't sit sit on our laps at all, ever, We give her hugs or will sit next to her (she leans her head on our shoulder) but I can't imagine having her sit on our lap and definitely not straddling. This is definitely something where the age of the child makes a big, big, difference.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

My meitai "baby" is nearly 5 though...? And DN (DP's niece) is 7 and also rides in it once in a while for fun....? And i remember very clearly straddling my mother to cuddle when i was 10 (i know i was 10 because i got riding lessons for my 10th birthday and i remember straddling hurting my inner thighs as i was sore from not being used to riding yet). I last sat on her lap when i was 17 (last sat on my dad's lap when i was 28 or so, and i often now lay on the sofa with my legs across his knees as he sits beside me and reads). I think this sort of thing differs between families and is not absolute. I saw both my parents nude all the time, we were, are, always very physically affectionate, my dad was at my recent birth. In my house growing up the ONLY person who was private about his body and reticent about physical affection around my parents was my brother, who was being molested and who molested me for 7 years. What's normal and completely healthy for one family might not be for another - if my mother had discouraged me from physical affection with her, at any age, i would have been devastated. Likewise i'm sure if you forced greater physicality on your eldest DD it would really distress her. I think what's important is respecting the boundaries other people have, not what those boundaries are.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think what happened in the OP is very inappropriate, but your 8-year-old doesnt' sit on your lap, ever? My 9-year-old regularly sits on my lap, in whatever position she wants. We love snuggling in this house, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with snuggling with your 8-year-old child.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


> , but your 8-year-old doesnt' sit on your lap, ever?


no, but I will say that my 8-yo (almost 9) is around 95 lbs and easily the size of kids 3-4 or more years older. She simply can't fit on my lap and is too tall and too heavy. I have adult friends (petite women) who will give clothes to her that don't fit them anymore. We do snuggle...give hugs, I 'll put my arm around her, she lean her head against my shoulder while we read books, she does get physical affection, but to actually sit on my lap..no. However, that might be her size more than age, it's just not comfortable to me to have someone that big sit on my lap.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> I really think you can feel empowered in this situation. Think about it - YOU are able to see what is happening, YOU are able to help this family, whether it be watchfulness, or a CPS call if you end up feeling it is warranted, you are in a positive position, not the position of a victim (i know SA survivors can go back to victimhood when they see triggering behaviour in others, but you don't have to, you're not that kid anymore, you're powerful!).


This. I know I tend to totally shut down & go into 'flight' mode when I am triggered, but pushing yourself to stand up for this little girl & do something about this could be very, very healing for you...


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

REPORT! Please, report.

To all the PPs who keep saying how you tickle your own kids on their bare skin, that is so totally irrelevent here. Those are your kids, the man and child in the OP are total strangers living in transitional housing. I know this will be seen as an unpopular, classist POV, but transitional/halfway/homeless housing attracts all types. Plain old regular families that are down on their luck, for sure. But also those who are in their current situation because of drug abuse and mental illness. Also sometimes folks with intellectual challenges that may make it difficult for them to maintain gainful employment. Unfortunately, drug abuse, mental illness, and reduced intellectual capacity can sometimes cause lowered sexual inhibition.

The girl is at risk. What the guy did does sound very much like grooming. Make the call.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Another strong vote for "you're totally NOT overreacting!" This thread made me feel ill as I read it, and I don't have any triggers that way. I had a healthy childhood, one in which all boundaries were respected, so I don't tend to see abuse when it's not there. But this? This is wrong wrong wrong. I'd even go so far as to say that the girl may have been abused before, seeing as how in one week she's practically throwing herself into the arms of a creepy guy. Yes. He's creepy. And his wife sounds creepy too. I've never called CPS on anyone, but if that were me, this is one situation where I'd call.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
> 
> REPORT! Please, report.
> 
> ...


I agree this girl is at risk,because of the situation and for the reason you state. There are other red flags that I did not know about until follow up posting. So I do think there needs to be great room for concern.

But, flame me, I do question the OP perception. If she stated she was not comfortable and could not watch this MAN touch (tickle) the girl I would say call right away - that says there is a gut feeling about this situation. But she says she can't stand watching *MEN touching GIRLS. She stated that they do back ground checks, but people are still creepy. This tells me that she might have history or prejudice** that can cause her perceptions to be off. All men are suspect. Any male/girl touching is seen as sexual. She might feel that it wasn't right even if a child's dad, father, et were doing this. (Sorry I don't know why our how the bold got put on but it won't go off.) It also ignores the fact that creep factor does not equate molester. More often than not a molester blends in. OP seems to have a distain that the families have to eat/cook with the single men -- but one of the dads (statistically) is a predator. Her statement about men touching girls also completely ignores what if it was a boy? Boys can be molested just as well as girls, and less likely to report it. I also do not agree with straddling = sexual. If a kid sits in my lap often times this will happen. Anytime kids sit on your lap then parts might get rubbed. If they are sitting side ways a pervert could just as easily (if not easier) see how close their hand could go up her crotch. *

I also think the OP might have done the wrong thing by going up to the mom and warning about the other couple -- without solid evidence. Sorry but my AP parenting has left me talked about being weird. I think if the situation was -- hey that couple gets drunk a lot, or s/he grabbed my butt the other mom might have listen but the warning as it sounds might have made the OP seem like the weird one.

**The time my sister spent in a shelter she said she was on high alert and paranoid because she was so concern and worried about her child. She later admit this caused her to misjudge people. High stress situations can cause this to happen to the best of us.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Those of you talking about tickling/straddling being ok at your house--I'm sorry but that is irrelevant. This is a STRANGER. That is not comparable to a loving, trustworthy family member or parent.

Men who are healthy do NOT allow strange girls to sit in a position like that. They do not tickle them under their shirts. Men who are healthy are respectful of personal boundaries and perceived impropriety, and are careful not to toe that line.

Children (boys or girls) who are healthy do NOT allow strange men to be that familiar with them. They know and protect their own boundaries.

Of course, for most of us a child straddling our lap is not sexual. But for predators, it IS! Their minds don't think like ours. They do see children as sexual and that act would mean more to them than us. Their minds are ILL, so it can't be compared to the way a healthy parent perceives the same issue.

For example, I remember awhile ago seeing a predator (on Oprah maybe?) who said that if he saw a young girl do a cartwheel in a dress, he would think that girl was flirting with him by flashing her underwear. He would take that as the GIRL making a move on him. His mind is just in a totally different reality. Imagine what that guy would say about it if the girl straddled his lap and let him put his hands under her shirt?!?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spring Lily*
> 
> Men who are healthy do NOT allow strange girls to sit in a position like that. They do not tickle them under their shirts.


I agree. Those of you who say that your husbands sit with your kids like that, and tickle your kids (which I think is fine, my DS and I snuggle closely all the time and wrestle/tickle/etc.), imagine that a new family moved in next door to you 1 week ago. Can you picture your husband sitting in a chair with the new 8yo neighbor girl straddling him on his lap, with his hands tickling her under her shirt? Would he do that? I'm guessing no, because it's completely different than playing around with your own kids.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> To those of you who said stay and watch, I can't. I'll have a panic attack. Men touching little girls is a major trigger for me.


That's a false dilemma though -- your only 2 choices aren't "stay and watch" or "leave the room and do nothing." You could intervene, you could ask the girl to come do a project with you, you could get her mom and tell her to do something. Do what you wish someone had done for you.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
> 
> REPORT! Please, report.
> 
> ...


I said that (tickling your own child is okay) because a couple posters had said, "eww, I wouldn't do that/wouldn't allow my husband to do that w our own daughters." And being terrified to touch your own children bc there are people in the world who victimize children is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, imo. The very fact that there are dangerous people in the world should not keep people from expressing love and affection with their own children. I watched a documentary recently where they were interviewing men who, as boys, were manipulated into testifying against someone who was being tried for molesting them (there had been no abuse at all) when they were six. The defendant ended up spending 20 years in prison. And when they asked these men how they were now, two of them were in tears bc they said they couldn't have freely loving relationships with their own children. Both of them, in separate interviews, said they had never given their own child a bath bc of fears that they would be accused of something. That is an extreme example, I know, but it looks to me like people are expressing similar inhibitions here and I find that pretty upsetting. It is sad for the parents and I feel like it can't be good for the kids and then I wonder what things will be like several generations down the road. How are our kids going to feel as parents, and so on? I think it's only been about 30 years now that child molestation has been something that's openly talked about and in the news and such and I wonder how the first generations of people raised in that environment feel compared to those who came before.

One thing I'm confused about is whether people think cps should be called bc this man is acting inappropriately or bc the girl's mother is being neglectful or is it a more generally "this girl is at risk bc she's living in a home w questionable people and we don't trust her mother to handle it." If I was living there and witnessing it, I think I'd want to talk to the girl's mother, both to warn her about my suspicions and to feel her out in terms of what she's thinking about all this. If she was really oblivious and still didn't seem to care after I told her, then I'd probably be more vigilant until I saw more.

I think BoBecGo wrote a brilliant post! I think you can do it, too, OP! The best outcome here would be if the guy was scared off before anything happened at all. Even if you call cps, I doubt that they'd be as effective as you would be, and they certainly wouldn't be as timely.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I agree. Those of you who say that your husbands sit with your kids like that, and tickle your kids (which I think is fine, my DS and I snuggle closely all the time and wrestle/tickle/etc.), imagine that a new family moved in next door to you 1 week ago. Can you picture your husband sitting in a chair with the new 8yo neighbor girl straddling him on his lap, with his hands tickling her under her shirt? Would he do that? I'm guessing no, because it's completely different than playing around with your own kids.


I guess I am still not convinced that this little girl & the man didn't already know each other. I've been in many situations where I moved into somewhere new & shouldn't have known anyone I was living with but because many of us had been repeatedly in similar circumstances, we often knew each other well (& bonded well, because there is a certain camraderie that often results from living with 'strangers' in circumstances similar to your own). I just wouldn't assume they were strangers simply because the woman & her kids just moved in.

But yeah, if they truly are strangers.... ummmm something's up.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spring Lily*
> 
> Children (boys or girls) who are healthy do NOT allow strange men to be that familiar with them. They know and protect their own boundaries.


Seriously? You know...ds1 is one of the most emotionally healthy people I've ever known. I'm trying to think back to when he was 8, and I don't think tickling under his shirt would have happened (although he probably wouldn't have been wearing one - he frequently wasn't)...but jumping on someone he hardly knew? Yeah - that would have. And, if he happened to end up in a straddling position, he'd have stayed that way. While it does sound as though the little girl the OP is talking about has some boundary problems (or is possibly just really, really lonely), people come in all kinds of different personalities and temperaments, and it's not as simple as "a child who sits straddle style on a strange man isn't healthy".


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Yeah, ^this. Totally this. In this circumstance...it is the *adult* whose behavior is really weird, NOT the kids. Some kids start to be more aware of boundries, etc when they are 6, 7, 8..but some kids that age have about as many boundries as a happy-go-lucky toddler and will snuggle up to anybody. I don't think it's a sign of trouble...I think, in many cases, it's the sign of a kid who hasn't been taught to be ashamed about their body, nakedness, closeness, etc.

As for the kid standing in bare feet in the freezing weather...I don't know that it's great parenting, but shame on anyone who would get CPS involved in someones life for something like that. That's crazy! My DD, when it starts to snow, will often times scream and shout to go out and twirl around in a first snow, she will NEVER sit still for boots, etc...she slips on whatever shoes are handy and don't have laces and then will go out on the back porch, often in PJ's and untied sneakers, to twirl around. After about five minutes, she comes running in and is sooo cold...but then says "HAT, COAT, BOOTS!" - and we put it on her and she goes back. I don't consider that bad parenting.

The OPs initial post made me really uncomfortable because it's a man that is a practical stranger...that's weird. That would absolutely never happen to my kid because I would bristle, hard, at the mere "sit on my lap" vibe...not to mention straddling and under the shirt tickling. Yuck. But if this was happening between my DH and DD...I wouldn't blink an eye. Granted, my DD is 2.5, but her father is the light of her life and I don't get upset at all when they snuggle and sit together.

So, yeah. The fact that it's a stranger, makes it a way red flag moment. I would have a serious talk with the mother before I called CPS. But I do believe her kids are high risk, from what I've read, and I'm worried about them and sad that they are so starving for attention. 

FTR, I'm way, way highly suspicious of CPS, so, you know.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I have kept an eye out since the last time I posted but I haven't seen anything else happen. The mom seems to be more on the ball....yesterday I took my kids to a hill right behind us to go sledding and I saw her going in with her kids from playing in the snow. I think that's great. I haven't noticed creepy guy around much, although the weird old couple seem to be stalking me, I swear. They knock on my door multiple times a day in spite of a sign I put out front that says "baby sleeping DO NOT DISTURB." I am 99% sure they are abusing some substance. Judging from their weird behavior I think they're on methadone but I have no way to prove that. Yesterday I was downstairs with my kids and she came in and started covertly taking pictures of my dd with her camera phone and I had to control myself not to snap that phone in half. I did manage to stop her without screaming in her face but next time I really might. The people who live next door to them have made several complaints about the noise level at night so hopefully they will be evicted soon. Everyone else here is really decent but they are CRAZY and they creep me out. Luckily they are at the opposite end of the building from me.

Strange thing though, they loaned the mom I posted about a space heater until she could buy her own, and yesterday she took the heater back over to them to return it. She came to me really weirded out, telling me that the old lady commented "you got some new undies, huh?" The underwear in question was some that she had just bought that day and had not yet worn, and she had not even taken it out of the bag. She had brought it straight into her place and put the whole bag, wrapped up, under her bed where her little one wouldn't get to it. So....are these people breaking in and snooping through other people's things? They are such weirdos.......if nothing else I'm hoping she wioll be sufficiently creeped out to stop sending her kids out without her to watch.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Just because YOU do not see anything happening lately does not mean it is not. or will not.

I don''t understand why, if you were so freaked out, and so sure it was inappropriate, you did not call and have not called anyone on that (and any other incident).

You are no longer a victim, you are an adult. At the very least, confront the mother, face to face, eye to eye. Talk to the girl- get to know her better.

(I still think you should call)


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

Frankly, it doesn't seem like the living situation is healthy for any child or family if you're living and sharing the same space as addicts and people who are "creepy."


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> Frankly, it doesn't seem like the living situation is healthy for any child or family if you're living and sharing the same space as addicts and people who are "creepy."


I was thinking the same thing. Are you estranged from your boyfriend?


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## nola79 (Jun 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> Frankly, it doesn't seem like the living situation is healthy for any child or family if you're living and sharing the same space as addicts and people who are "creepy."


This is what I'm thinking! I just cannot imagine putting kids in this situation, around all these weird people. No way.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


No, we are together. And trust me, no one messes with his kids. Believe me.

I'm glad to update that last night me and another mom kind of confronted the mom of the little girl. Apparently she really did not realize the extent of his interactions with her dd. Yesterday I noticed that she didn't send either of the kids out without her so that is good too. I saw her later in the laundry room and I overheard her talking to her dd about "bad touches" so hopefully this means she is keeping a more vigilant eye. I think the application process that you go through to move in lulls people into thinking that all the bad folks get screened out but that just isn't true. They pretty much have the same requirements as every apt complex in the area which is no outstanding warrants, no registered sex offenders, no one convicted of a violent crime, etc. It doesn't mean that every *potential* creep is screened out because there is no way to do that.

And there are crazy people everywhere. I lived in a single family house in a decent neighborhood with my mom and dad who were respected in our religion and liked by many, and I was homeschooled. And I was molested. It can happen anywhere. I really don't care if people are addicts as long as they stay the hell away from me. And I have no problem whatsoever getting physical to protect myself and my children. Not that it has come to that, but I'm just saying. Let me catch somebody sneaking into MY house....shoot. I can't worry about what other people aer doing. There are perverts everywhere and you can't avoid them. You can only protect your chidlren and teach them to protect themselves. My 3 yr old can hold his own and when my dd is old enough I will teach her too. Rather than try to live in a bubble I would rather teach my chidlren to stand up for themselves.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

That is a good update. I think it is good that you brought it to her attention and she is being so attentive. I think you should also try to find a way to bring it to the attention of the people who do the moving in screening because it sounds like they didn't know each other, they didn't have a bond, and something seriously wrong was going on with that guy.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

That's a good update OP. Good for you for bringing it up with the mother.

Would it help for you and your DP to pool your resources so that you could all live alone together?


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## 4myfinn (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm glad to read your update, OP. I read through the entire thread just sick to my stomach. Now that the mother is aware and responding to the situation, I feel a little better. I'm proud of you for speaking up and talking to her about it. That couple sounds truly disturbed. I would be going to any lengths to ensure that they had no contact with my children at all.

Frankly, I was just sick to read so many posters justifying the tickling and straddling. I know it happens in many happy, healthy, and safe homes, but in this situation, it was completely inappropriate. I also come from a very affectionate family, but this circumstance is different . . . 1. They had just met a week ago, 2. She was straddling him, 3. He was tickling her, 4. His hands were UNDER HER SHIRT, 5. Mom seems a little checked out, 6. The little girl is emotionally needy and seems to be the perfect target. OP, if I saw this happen again, I would follow the advice of the PP and speak up. Make eye contact and tell him he's being inappropriate.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

It was really obvious to mne last night that he knows he is wrong, because I looked at him, and he immediately dropped the little girl and kind of pushed her away. It was at that point that me and the other mom spoke to the mother to make her aware. I really don't know how she missed it since we were all in the laundry room, but whatever. We are trying to come up with a way to get him evicted but taht is hard because he has as much right, legally, to have a place o live as anyone else. Unless he does something clearly illegal, there's not much we can do. Jut like we can't get rid of the neighbor who lets her trash pile up for a week at a time.....


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

No offense but your post sounds a little delusional OP.Obviously there are crazy people everywhere but it's not a safe environment to have children in when there are "creepy" people and meth heads around. It's one thing for a meth head to live across the hall from me when I am able to go inside the safe confines of my apartment and don't have to deal with him/her than when you are in a situation where you do. The state of Virginia has wonderful resources to help parents who are struggling financially and/or need help with housing.

Your three year old can hold his own against whom? He's three years old. Even the smartest three year old can do but so much.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## rush2ady (Nov 16, 2010)

Whew. This thread had me on edge...glad the mom was made aware and is being more vigilant. I agree a strange man tickling an 8 yr old under her shirt, and verbalizing it as well! is way off. There are many little girls in our circle of friends, and NONE of the men of the group behave this way with them. It would be, and is, shockingly inappropriate.

That said, I was sad to see many who discouraged OP's heightened sense of awareness, by making it seem she was indeed over-reacting. I've faced abuse as well, and have a heightened sense of creeps. I don't get "creepy" vibes randomly. When I do get them, I absolutely take it seriously. When I get those vibes, I go on guard immediately. I was introduced to a man once, and simply upon shaking his hand, EVERY red alert inside me went crazy! serious creep alert. It was almost an immediate physical revulsion. He was being introduced to me because he was going to be my "home teacher" (for our church) and would be visiting me in my home. Guarantee you, I never allowed him to visit, or get anywhere near me. And asking around later, there were "incidents" with his own children which were questionable (which validated my vibes, but I didn't really need the validation).

Even if this man had not yet done anything to the girl, OP's intuition, and close observation, informed her he had the potential for harm. Kudos for paying attention, and taking the needed action of informing the mother.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Exactly. It's one thing to hope your child can hold their own if the unmentionable were to occur. that's a lot different than willingly putting yourself in housing that has pedophiles and crackheads living there.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> No offense but your post sounds a little delusional OP.Obviously there are crazy people everywhere but it's not a safe environment to have children in when there are "creepy" people and meth heads around. It's one thing for a meth head to live across the hall from me when I am able to go inside the safe confines of my apartment and don't have to deal with him/her than when you are in a situation where you do. The state of Virginia has wonderful resources to help parents who are struggling financially and/or need help with housing.
> 
> Your three year old can hold his own against whom? He's three years old. Even the smartest three year old can do but so much.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> The state of Virginia has wonderful resources to help parents who are struggling financially and/or need help with housing.


Yep, this is one of those *wonderful* resources. It's an approved housing community for low income families and although I don't know their exact budget breakdown, I know that they do cross referrals with social services and receive funding through the state. We do have private dwellings... it's hard to describe but if you know what an SRO is I think maybe that's what it used to be. We just have to share a kitchen area, which does suck, but like I said the other families are great, I just really dislike having single men living right under us. But aside from the kitchen issue it's not much different from any other apartment building. If we moved into state subsidized

housing (the projects) then yeah, we would have our own kitchen but then there would be the possibility of stray gunshots flying through our windows. You don't get something for free without some sort of cost.

And no, I certainly don't expect my 3 year old to be able to defend himself against an adult predator. I guess I was trying to say that no matter where you live there are risks, and that since I'm not in a position where I can move to some affluent neighborhodd (not that would necessarily be safer) I prefer not to bury my head in the sand but instead to be vigilant about watching my children, knowing who their friends are and who they are around, and arming them with knowledge. No, a 3 yr old can't ward off a grown man, but a 3 year old who scratches, bites, yells, and threatens to tell mommy is a much less appealing target than a 3 yr old who passively accepts inappropriate touching. I have no doubt that if the mom of this little girl hadn't finally stepped in, he would have continued and escalated the behavior, an she was going right along with it. There is nother little girl who lives here who is a year younger. He tried to grab her hand (I assume, I overheard her but didn't see it) yesterday and she said really loudly, "my mom will kick your a$$ if she sees you pulling on my hand. You better go pick on somebody else." LOL he doesn't so much as look her direction since then.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Well done, I am really glad you were able to speak with the mother.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


> There is nother little girl who lives here who is a year younger. He tried to grab her hand (I assume, I overheard her but didn't see it) yesterday and she said really loudly, "my mom will kick your a$$ if she sees you pulling on my hand. You better go pick on somebody else." LOL he doesn't so much as look her direction since then.


I would make a non-emergency call to the police or talk to the landlord about this. Just a FYI to them, kwim? He could be mentally unstable, just out of a halfway house, or whatnot. This creeps the bleep outta me.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rush2ady*
> 
> Whew. This thread had me on edge...glad the mom was made aware and is being more vigilant. I agree a strange man tickling an 8 yr old under her shirt, and verbalizing it as well! is way off. There are many little girls in our circle of friends, and NONE of the men of the group behave this way with them. It would be, and is, shockingly inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder if sometimes, in such situations as the OP is living, we might "turn off" or talk ourselves into ignoring our intuition about getting "creeped-out vibes" from a person because we don't want to appear "classist" (or even "racist" if the person we have the vibes about is of a different race).


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think this is a good point to recommend the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin Baker.

One of the things that Baker stresses is to pay attention to those vibes that you have. You do NOT need to be nice to everyone.


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## purplepaperclip (May 19, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> I think this is a good point to recommend the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin Baker.
> 
> One of the things that Baker stresses is to pay attention to those vibes that you have. You do NOT need to be nice to everyone.


I think you mean Gavin de Becker.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 

Quote:


> Orig
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is making me a little sad.

You seem to be accepting of not living in a great place, and maybe that is what you need to do for now, but please want more for yourself and your children.

No place is perfectly safe, but many places are safer. Yes, teach your children to yell and scream, but also try and find an environment where the liklihood of them having to yell and scream is less.

You need a life plan on how to live in a safer environment.

I think you handled the situation in the Op just fine - you and another mother alerted the mother that something seemed off. Kudo's - really. I would not foucs any energy on getting him evicted though - tickling under a shirt is not an offense, I doubt you would get anywhere, and really you have no proof he is a pedophile. Focus your energy on finding a way to live in an environment where you are not in such close quarters with a bunch of other people (many of whom have issues of one sort or another)

I hope I do not come across as elitist or lecturing - I lived in public housing once upon a time. On my side of the building alone, we had several drug addicts and alcoholics, several women who had been abused, one woman who did not keep an eye on her very young son, and one woman who had a teen son who threw such loud parties he almost got them evicted. One man decided the man downstairs from me was a homosexual and therefore a pedophile. So...I have been where you are somewhat. Speaking as someone who has older kids, I can tell you I am very, very glad I got out. No one should live around so many problems and drama all the time - it becomes the norm and is oh-so draining.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

OP, I am becoming increasingly concerned by your posts. There seems to be pattern of refusing to accept responsibilty for many things that have occurred especially in regards to your living situation. You mentioned in another post that the roommate was not happy with the police and CPS coming around. You move nearly three hours away and have your children living in an environment with meth heads and "creeps." Then you seem to turn your nose down at resources that are available to you. Don't you think your children deserve some consistency in their environment? You spend many of your posts lauding your partner as this wonderful, wonderful man but I wonder if you are trying to convince yourself of that.

Not sure exactly where you've moved to but if it's within the confines of Virginia's Commonwealth then where you are living is not your only option. It may be the option you've chosen but it's not your only option.

From your posts it seems like you and the children have no stability and you are in no rush to give them that. I am sorry mama but I won't offer hugs or special terms of endearment when you seem perfectly okay with the situation you are in. Regardless of what struggles we may have, whether it be financial, physical or emotional, we have to make a decision to want to do better and come up with short and long term goals to do that. It doesn't matter if you move three hours away or six hours away...the issues we had at one place don't go away with the change of a zip code.

I sincerely hope you come to terms with wanting better and deserving better. If not for yourself, at least for your little ones.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> OP, I am becoming increasingly concerned by your posts. There seems to be pattern of refusing to accept responsibilty for many things that have occurred especially in regards to your living situation. You mentioned in another post that the roommate was not happy with the police and CPS coming around. You move nearly three hours away and have your children living in an environment with meth heads and "creeps." Then you seem to turn your nose down at resources that are available to you. Don't you think your children deserve some consistency in their environment? You spend many of your posts lauding your partner as this wonderful, wonderful man but I wonder if you are trying to convince yourself of that.
> 
> ...


Yup. 100%


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## nola79 (Jun 21, 2009)

Agreed with Gbailey and Kathymuggle. OP, I think you need to take a serious look at your life and do what you can to change things for the better. Your kids deserve better than this.


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## rush2ady (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> OP, I am becoming increasingly concerned by your posts. There seems to be pattern of refusing to accept responsibilty for many things that have occurred especially in regards to your living situation. You mentioned in another post that the roommate was not happy with the police and CPS coming around. You move nearly three hours away and have your children living in an environment with meth heads and "creeps." Then you seem to turn your nose down at resources that are available to you. Don't you think your children deserve some consistency in their environment? You spend many of your posts lauding your partner as this wonderful, wonderful man but I wonder if you are trying to convince yourself of that.
> 
> ...


Strange, I read the entire thread and didn't get this impression. I got that she is currently living in poverty, but I don't see where you're making the conclusion she's unambitious and irresponsible and wants to stay in this lifestyle.... did I miss something? Sometimes our life circumstances force us into situations we would not choose. Been there, done that. I got the impression she's trying to protect her kids as best she can in her circumstances.

I didn't get the impression she's "perfectly okay" with things as they are. Who in their life isn't trying to make improvements? Just because she didn't specify in this thread, doesn't mean she's not trying.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

After having read OP's posts for a long time, I actually think she's taking real steps. IMO, the single most important move she needed to make was breaking ties with her parents, which she's doing. It's going to take some time for her life to settle down after all the upheavals, but one of the key components to the upheavals was that she kept ending up living with her mom and dad. The living situation she's currently in sounds awful - I'm the first to agree. However, she doesn't have an emotional/psychological attachment to this place, which, imo, makes it a significant improvement over becoming repeatedly enmeshed with her mother. I don't see this as a long-term solution, but I don't think the OP does, either.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbailey*
> 
> OP, I am becoming increasingly concerned by your posts. There seems to be pattern of refusing to accept responsibilty for many things that have occurred especially in regards to your living situation. You mentioned in another post that the roommate was not happy with the police and CPS coming around. You move nearly three hours away and have your children living in an environment with meth heads and "creeps." Then you seem to turn your nose down at resources that are available to you. Don't you think your children deserve some consistency in their environment? You spend many of your posts lauding your partner as this wonderful, wonderful man but I wonder if you are trying to convince yourself of that.
> 
> ...


This thread is not about me and I'm not asking for your approval. I simply wanted to know whether my reaction was valid or whether I was overreacting due to my own previous experiences.

Since you do not know me in real life, you cannot possibly know the details of my situation well enough to judge whether I'm ok with my situation or exactly what I'm doing to change it. I'd love for you to clarify exactly which resource I'm turning my nose up to.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't know how this thread turned into focussing on the OP, either. Nowhere does it seem to me that the OP is unable or incapable of providing vigilent, attentive care to her own children, so I am somewhat confused that there's a groundswell questioning her abilities to choose housing for her and her kids. No one knows her situation - even those of us who have read or followed previous posts (I haven't). She seems rational and capable, and maybe not in a place in her life where she has many options, so doing the best she can.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

nm


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> This thread is not about me and I'm not asking for your approval. I simply wanted to know whether my reaction was valid or whether I was overreacting due to my own previous experiences.


I think you need to start really listening to your instincts. They are GOOD. They are the instincts that a good mama bear has. Listen to them, do NOT second guess them. Trust yourself. Right now, you don't. Your past experiences may make you more cautious than someone who hasn't had those experiences, but they do not mean that your instincts have anything wrong with them. Think of yourself as maybe being slightly more in tune - but do not consider them not as good, or off.

You have my permission to listen to your instincts, and follow them. Trust yourself - this is more important than ANYTHING else.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

OP i think if i were you i'd find a way to mention to the landlord that this guy is creepy - grabbing the other girl's hand AND the way you described his behaviour when he sensed he was "caught" make me agree far more concretely, this is creepy behaviour. There are a lot of you with kids in your current situation - can you all get together and write a letter stating that this man seems to be behaving in an odd way and you feel he is attempting to groom your kids? They cannot, legally, kick him out for acting like this, but equally i know if i were a landlord and my parent-tenants reported this sort of thing i'd definitely find a pretext to move him on. Wirth a try.

And as an aside about bad living conditions/predators to children, seriously guys, are you kidding? Doctors, lawyers, police officers, nursery workers, teachers and veterinarians are ALL just as capable of child rape and abuse as a meth addict or a drunk living in poverty. Drug abuse is not only a problem for the poor, and mental instability or illness can happen to ANYONE. You seriously think a "nice neighbourhood" has no paedophiles, no crazy people, no-one with boundary issues? My abuser was my brother, his abuser was his teacher, this is so often the case.

Money cannot protect you or your children from sexual predators, only vigilance can, and the OP seems to have plenty.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> And as an aside about bad living conditions/predators to children, seriously guys, are you kidding? Doctors, lawyers, police officers, nursery workers, teachers and veterinarians are ALL just as capable of child rape and abuse as a meth addict or a drunk living in poverty. Drug abuse is not only a problem for the poor, and mental instability or illness can happen to ANYONE. You seriously think a "nice neighbourhood" has no paedophiles, no crazy people, no-one with boundary issues? My abuser was my brother, his abuser was his teacher, this is so often the case.
> 
> Money cannot protect you or your children from sexual predators, only vigilance can, and the OP seems to have plenty.


I have not looked up sexual predators - it suspect that does cut across socio economic boundaries.

However, if you look at crime in general you are deluding yourself (and justifying living in a bad environment) if you think all places are created equal.

Looking just at homicide, I would rather live in Vermont than Louisiana. And within both Vermont and Lousiana there are probably safer and less safe places to live.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I am thrilled to report that the older couple got evicted this morning. I haven't got a shred of sympathy for them, because they continured to deny their addiction right up until they drove off with their friends. Everyone was ecstatic. it's been quiet all day. I don't know the details, but I complained about them to the office and I guess enough other people did that they found some pretense to evict them on.

The other guy, who I still think is a creep, is **** here. The mom told me that he apologized to her and told her he didn't realize how he came across. She said he was about to cry. I don't believe it for a minute, but she's buying it.  I sayy, once a pervert, always a pervert. Those kinds of lowlifes don't change and no man with common sense woul be holding someone else's daughter and slapping her butt or tickling her under her shirt.

HOwever the upside is that the apology came because she formally complained to the office, so if there are any more complaints he will probably be reporte to the police and eventually evicted. I haven't even seen him. I guess he's staying inside and minding his business. This is fine with me.

I can't believe she actually thinks he was sincerely apologizing, and even if he was sorry, he cango be sorry somewhere else, imo. Kick him out regardless. There are no second chances for that. But....it's not my decision.


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## Kristin0105 (Mar 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> holding someone else's daughter and slapping her butt or tickling her under her shirt.


Why has no one called CPS about this? It is not your job to determine if this constitutes abuse it is CPS's job to determine this. Regardless of how you feel about CPS you need to call for this little girl's sake. I have worked with sex offenders in the past. Really you need to make the call. This child needs your help before it's too late for her. CPs may not do anything but the guy may move on to another location.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Yes, bu calling CPS will put the mother on their radar, not the man.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kristin0105*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Kristin0105 (Mar 1, 2008)

Sorry but the child needs help. It's not for you to decide to protect the Mother. If you suspect anything call CPs and ask them if it's reportable?


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kristin0105*
> 
> Sorry but the child needs help. It's not for you to decide to protect the Mother. If you suspect anything call CPs and ask them if it's reportable?


I'm not protecting the mother. There is nothing for CPS to do about the man. You can't do anything legally to him based on what he did. However, if CPS is called, they will start investigating into the mother and then SHE will be on their radar. They won't do anything about the man until he actually molests someone.

It is unfair, wrong, and it sucks, and I know it defies logic, but that is how it is. You won't convince me otherwise because I just got through dealing with CPS. I know how the process works. And I have called on people before so I know how it proceeded and I know what was done.

I'm not going to call CPS on this mother as long as she is actively proecting her children. I don't agree with her for accepting his apology, but she is keeping her kids withher and that is all that matters.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but it makes little difference what the overall stats are when it comes to the individual. I've lived in a VERY high crime area. Rapes out the wazoo BUT the majority of the rapes (there had been 1, in 8 years, which didn't fit this profile) were committed against prostitutes (i lived in a red-light area). I wasn't working as a prostitute. I was at significantly less risk by not PUTTING myself at risk. Likewise there were 3 shootings and dozens of knife-attacks while i lived there, but they were all drugs related and i neither took nor dealt drugs and i kept to myself and didn't mix with people involved in that sort of thing. If you took out the rapes against prostitutes and drug-related attacks the area was no more dangerous than the more wealthy areas (one of which i now live in - my environment is enviable, not "bad", not sure why you thought otherwise?). Ironically the muggers from my old area come HERE to mug people, because they know their neighbours aren't worth mugging.

Proving that statistically that one area has less gun crime than another doesn't prove everyone in the more dangerous area is surely about to be murdered OR that everyone who lives there, whatever their reasons, are bad parents who need to re-think their whole lives and move.

OP that's a great update. I would guess the man feels cornered (no-one wants the paedophile/pervert label) and is doing what he can. I would not expect any more incidents based on that, if there are any he knows he's going to be homeless and possibly under suspicion of society's most hated crime.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> I'm sorry, but it makes little difference what the overall stats are when it comes to the individual. I've lived in a VERY high crime area. Rapes out the wazoo BUT the majority of the rapes (there had been 1, in 8 years, which didn't fit this profile) were committed against prostitutes (i lived in a red-light area). I wasn't working as a prostitute. I was at significantly less risk by not PUTTING myself at risk. Likewise there were 3 shootings and dozens of knife-attacks while i lived there, but they were all drugs related and i neither took nor dealt drugs and i kept to myself and didn't mix with people involved in that sort of thing. If you took out the rapes against prostitutes and drug-related attacks the area was no more dangerous than the more wealthy areas (one of which i now live in - my environment is enviable, not "bad", not sure why you thought otherwise?). Ironically the muggers from my old area come HERE to mug people, because they know their neighbours aren't worth mugging.
> 
> ...


We might just have to agree to disagree.

I agree that making good choices and being vigilant are keys to safety, but environment is also a consideration. From a safety perspective if there is a crime ridden part of a city and a not crime ridden part of a city, I am going to pick the not-crime ridden. I never said all people in a bad area are about to be murdered or that everyone who lives there is a bad parent. It is all about degree of risk.

Even if you are right and it all comes down to lifestyle and vigilance - why would anyone want to live a drug ridden, prostitute filled, high rape area?







Seeing that sort of thing on a daily basis must affect you - and might affect your (general your) children.

I understand wanting to stay near friends and community - but in one town there are almost always less safe and safer area. Picking the safer one seems prudent.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I left an incredibly unhealthy, borderline abusive situation with my XP to take a flat on the private rental market because i was told that i would have to wait 3+ years to get a local authority property UNLESS i was willing to take my baby to the homeless shelter, and then accept whatever housing they offered (if you're in homeless accommodation you only get offered once, if you are not you get 3 offers before they bump you back to the bottom of the list). 3 nights before i was told this a person had set fire to the local homeless shelter (to which i would have been referred) and a baby had died of smoke inhalation. I was on benefits which ruled out the vast majority of good reliable landlords. Of the few (good) landlords who WOULD take welfare tenants only 2 had a suitably-sized property available to me which i would be able to pay for (not "afford" - my rent which would have been paid in another cheaper property was over £100 pcm higher than the benefits i got for it, a shortfall which i had to find out of my £50/week income support). Unfortunately, because they know local authorities are paying rent, they do not always charge fairly. I did actually have the Rent Officer come in to do an assessment but it made no difference.

Interestingly there was actually a flat in a much wealthier area available but it was damp with visible mould, had bars on the windows to the rear, was in a shared close and 3 other properties in the same close were half-way houses for criminals, and had a dangerously dilapidated kitchen and bathroom (as in NO enamel left in the rusty tub). I didn't take it because even though OUTSIDE might have been safer, i could see inside wasn't going to be. The flat i took was cold, in a rough area and too expensive for what it was. BUT it was also on the edge of the city's biggest park, opposite a museum, near a LOT of services for single parents (poverty and single parents often going hand in hand), close to the library, and, most important to me had its own front door to which only i had the keys. I completely agree it was a trade off. When DP and i bought the house i'm in now there was NO QUESTION of me wanting to buy there. But i wasn't being a negligent parent by choosing to live there when i did.

I had other choices. They were:

Take a property i ultimately couldn't afford and face eviction

Take a property having lied about my employment and face eviction (doubt it would have worked as lies go, though i didn't move until she was 4months old, i had a 10week old baby with me when i signed the lease!)

Take a property in a nicer area with a much lower standard of actual housing

Stay where i was and continue my slide into desperate depression and suicidal thoughts until i was hospitalised

Sometimes people have really really hard choices to make, and there isn't a "perfect" solution when that happens. I'm sure some other person, more scared of rape and assault and murder than of asthma and other mould-related illnesses, death in fire due to bars making escape impossible, injuries from rusty bathroom wear and having to live with criminals having a key to the front "safety" door you share took that other flat. And good luck to them, i'm sure they have a different experience and perspective. But not everyone living in poverty is choosing it, and not everyone raising kids in poor areas with higher crime rates is doing so out of hateful negligence for their kids welfare - i totally agree that kids need stability, and i can tell you now that for my eldest DD it was MOVING 3 times (from the rough area to a nice area, beautiful rental, then different nice area, beautiful rental, then finally back to first nice area, nice house we bought) that caused her most trauma, not the peaceful 2.5 years she spent living in the rotten area which i was able to shield her from by simply closing my front door and locking it. "Seeing" prostitution - you mean she saw women, on the streets, talking to each other...? It wasn't like they asked my 2 year old if she was looking for business, or that my 2 year old was out playing in the streets while these women were getting into cars. Nor were there drugs being offered to my kid (or to me) or any drug abuse in our faces. Our one encounter with drugs was to find a used needle in the park, that's happened to me in the supernice area's park too.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The fact is that not everyone can live in a green beautiful low crime rate suburb with lots of trees and parks and great schools. People have to do the best they can, and this living situation might be the best option available to the OP at the moment. I'm glad the creepy older couple moved out and I hope things continue to improve there, OP!


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

GoBecGo.....

Thank you for sharing. I will try and do the same.

I am not poor now, but I have grown up around poverty. I have not really grown up around crime, though. Sometimes, however, the two go together - the poor areas of town tend to attract some criminals/ drug addicts, etc, due to the low rents.

The vast majority of people I knew were generational poor and they could not see a way out of their situation. If you ever asked them why they could not do anything they always answered "because I do not have the money". They did not like the area they lived in - but couldn't move "because they did not have the money". It went beyond this - money was always the excuse for everything. They always had money for cigarettes, though, and for those that drank - booze. TBH, these are some of the least empowered people I have ever met.

Whenever someone starts in on "I cannot move (or xyz) because of money" it always puts my hackles up a bit. I am reminded of people I know who are stuck in a poverty cycles that they don't even see and certainly are not getting out of.

I really have no issues with temporary poverty or people having to live temporarily in a bad neighbourhood. I do tend to caution people to not become complacent with it, though, as poverty and living in bad neighbourhoods can become cultural and cyclical. I have seen it.

As per your story - I doubt your 2 yr old was affected by the neighbourhood she was in. She was quite young. It is a bit of a Russian Roulette game, though, to have a child grow up in a bad area and hope they come out ok. We can do our best as parents, but environment beyond our four walls does play a role.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> The fact is that not everyone can live in a green beautiful low crime rate suburb with lots of trees and parks and great schools. People have to do the best they can, and this living situation might be the best option available to the OP at the moment. I'm glad the creepy older couple moved out and I hope things continue to improve there, OP!


There are always going to be people living in crime ridden areas - the OP does not have to be one. We only get what we can envision, expect and strive for.

I hope the Op (everyone, really) strives to improve their situation. I have no issues or judgement towards people who are in a tough spot temporarily and do what they have to do.


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## junipermoon (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Great post--thank you for outlining all of this! I think you make great points here and perfectly illuminate why great parents make decisions that from far away might not look like the best choices to folks who aren't familiar with the details of a particular situation.

I had a friend in the US who chose the shelter route, and they had a similar set up with housing offers, and she ended up staying six months before getting an offer last year for a one year voucher--but she is disabled, and needs a long term voucher--so now her voucher (that she HAD to accept) is running out and it looks like she and her daughter have to move back into the shelter system. She can't (and wouldn't want) to stay with me because our lifestyles are so different and we are separted atm by several states--but her updates are heartbreaking.

To the OP--I agree with you about the CPS thing--it does suck but I think you are right in your thinking not to call. It is sad that the child seems to have been so unprotected, and I think you were right to talk to the mom.

In terms of the communal living thing in general--I wanted to mention that I lived in a co-op before I had kids where several housemates did have kids--and the thing that made it "work" was that everyone was super flexible and open to other people's lifestyles and quirks. Like, you mentioned a woman who let trash pile up and a bare-footed little girl--our household "worked" because no one would have blinked an eye--someone else would have put the trash out and if needed coaxed the child into socks...with no worries. Talk about it at housemeeting, but in an open minded way. Some folks had to hold their breath when one of our shaman roomates did taxidermy type work with dead birds in the yard, and others had to dialogue hard about how discrete marijuana smoking needed to be given that there were kids in the mix...but always in a reasoned, gentle way.

One serious issue we had in that coop involved man who rubbed the shoulders of a 13 year old when she was in a towel after showering--without permission. A mediator was brought in and it was talked through and the man did leave--because the girl was no longer comfortable living around him and he didn't quite "get" why what he did had violated boundaries--but the whole thing was handled with open hearts, open minds, no judgements, just the facts kind of approach. Nobody "up in arms" and talking about kicking asses...instead the focus was on protecting the rights of minor children but in a calm and level headed way...

I guess my point is that commmunal living takes a certain kind of energy, and since you can't choose your housemates in this situation, it might be best to sort of bury your head in the sand a bit--unless someone's kid is in danger, when you can't--but stuff like garbage in someone's room or socks on baby feet--I would leave it be or try to at the very least approach with an open minded stance, not losing your balance as you go. As you point out so poignantly, your first job is to be present for your own kids and yourself.


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> There are always going to be people living in crime ridden areas - the OP does not have to be one. We only get what we can envision, expect and strive for.
> 
> I hope the Op (everyone, really) strives to improve their situation. I have no issues or judgement towards people who are in a tough spot temporarily and do what they have to do.


When did the OP ever say that she was content to live here for the rest of her life? She IS trying to improve her situation and living here is an improvement. I thought she was living here to save money and move somewhere else.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toolip*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


She hasn't - point taken.

I tend to to caution people whenever I hear that they live in a not so great environment that they should try and get out.

I do this because I have known so many people who have been complacent with their lot in life. it probably has more to do with me than the Op. In any event - who cares? There is nothing wrong with reminding people not to become complacent; if the Op already knows this then great!


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I guess I think that there is something wrong with reminding people not to be complacent when they aren't being complacent. I think that it sends the message that what they are doing is not enough and never will be. When someone who has made a big change that was not an easy decision, hears that what they did still isn't enough, I doubt that it feels very encouraging or inspiring.

OP, I know this thread isn't about you but I do think that it is awesome that you have gotten out of your previous situation and are taking big steps to getting where you want to be.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> GoBecGo.....
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing Kathymuggle.

I definitely know people as you describe (i have some in my family). For me the poverty was a holding pattern while i got my DD raised to an age i felt ok about using childcare (which is a personal thing, for me i needed her to be at least 3, and then i wanted to be part time maximum until she was in school, all of which became moot since i moved in with DP when she was 2.75 and got pregnant 9 months later and we decided between us that since we can afford it it'd be best for us all if i SAH just now, though in fact i'm doing a little freelance work now). Ironically enough the way the benefits system works in the UK it actually kept me OUT of work - there is a certain amount that one can earn in a week before one's benefits are altered, but for me, due to my education and the work i commonly do (admin, administrative project management, that sort of thing) it would have been less than half a days' work, and who will employ an administrator for 3 hours a week? Not most normal employers (my current work is for the IM who looked after me during DD2's pregnancy, and she is gold dust, since i am even fine to take the baby to work with me!) that's for sure. So i thought well, i'll get a part time job, but then i would have earned "so much" that i lost pretty much ALL benefits, even though i'd be earning substantially less, once you factored in my subsidised rent and taxes being taken, than i was on benefits. So basically the only way i could come out ahead (given i would also have to pay for childcare, which started at £400/month when i first looked and got more expensive the better the facility - a good place with gentle practices, low staff turn-over, small group sizes and good equipment was £600-£700 month for 8am-6pm Mon-Fri) was to take a full time job, 40 hours. And to be completely honest, though i know some people think "morally" or "ethically" one should work if one is able, i really didn't WANT to put my kid in full-time childcare and never see her so i could work my azz off and still *just* be able to afford to live in my cold flat in that horrible area. I did see the Lone Parent Advisor about this. She did the calculations, figured out how it all looked and advised me to take a part time job at McDonalds "because then at least you'll be working and you'll still be on the same money". I will admit to being the snob who doesn't WANT to be away even part time from my baby so i can work at McDonalds and break even.

I agree that complacency is dangerous. I guess i don't see that in the OP, maybe you do.

I have to disagree a little with the roulette theory. I grew up in nice areas, of moderate means (not rich, not in poverty by a long way!). My brother did too. He is currently unemployed, uses drugs, is alcohol-dependant and has multiple physical, mental and emotional issues. Most, surely, began when he was molested by a well-respected teacher at our lovely little primary school (my class, which was primaries 1, 2 and 3 together had NINE kids in it, there were only 32 kids in the whole school). I think what happens to us, and more importantly HOW WE FRAME IT, is what empowers or disempowers a person, not so much where we live. My DP had a gang of friends as a teen who got more and more "wild" and eventually one pulled a knife on another. DP left the group, and he suffered for it, they called him, taunted him, accused him of being a snob for "deserting" them. But he simply wasn't willing to risk getting stabbed in order to keep these people happy. Growing up his parents encouraged him to be honest with himself and choose his friends carefully. He didn't have to move house to remove himself from that group, several of whom are now in prison or dead, he just needed to be of a mindset that he wasn't going to be led by people he knew were going bad places. I definitely think one can do that as a parent, empower one's kid, encourage critical awareness of personalities and influences in their lives, and give them the tools to find and enjoy the better situations life offers.

This was an interesting discussion, thank you!


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Great news, OP! Sounds like rattling cages has had the desired result. Good on you for noticing and getting the ball rolling so these creeps could be evicted.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Exactly. It's one thing to hope your child can hold their own if the unmentionable were to occur. that's a lot different than willingly putting yourself in housing that has pedophiles and crackheads living there.
> 
> ...


Butting in here.....while I know a three year old couldn't physically hold his own against a grown man or woman, he could have the knowledge and ability to defend himself in other ways. (screaming and yelling) or telling his mother anytime someone made him uncomfortable, or by not playing into adult's creepy advances, saying back off/don't touch me/go away from me/etc.

My kids grew up in boatyards where there was every different flavor of crazy all the time. We had some good trusted friends and most people were very nice, but there were a lot of transients, lots of drunks, the odd crackhead, trigger happy crazies, perverts, and just plain old crazy and I'm sure there were a few pedophiles thrown into the mix.. We taught our kids that no one touches them. No one. We taught them to yell, kick, scream and tell. As a result they were like rattlesnakes, if someone tried to pick them up and carry them (other than us) or sit them on their lap, forget it, they'd writhe and hiss and kick, and they had no problem at all telling an adult to 'go away from me'. One time DD was on the tire swing and there were other kids waiting so this guy plucked her off the swing and tried to carry her to the picnic table, he didn't make two steps before boys were yelling at him to 'put my sister down you SOB' and she was running to me.

I think that we all (well most folks anyway) instinctually teach our kids what they need to know to protect themselves where ever we happen to be living. The OP knows there's some untrustworthy people where she's living and she's teaching her child accordingly which should be applauded.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> I'm sorry, but it makes little difference what the overall stats are when it comes to the individual. I've lived in a VERY high crime area. Rapes out the wazoo BUT the majority of the rapes (there had been 1, in 8 years, which didn't fit this profile) were committed against prostitutes (i lived in a red-light area). I wasn't working as a prostitute. I was at significantly less risk by not PUTTING myself at risk. Likewise there were 3 shootings and dozens of knife-attacks while i lived there, but they were all drugs related and i neither took nor dealt drugs and i kept to myself and didn't mix with people involved in that sort of thing. If you took out the rapes against prostitutes and drug-related attacks the area was no more dangerous than the more wealthy areas (one of which i now live in - my environment is enviable, not "bad", not sure why you thought otherwise?). Ironically the muggers from my old area come HERE to mug people, because they know their neighbours aren't worth mugging.
> 
> ...


I am sorry but I have also lived in an incredibly high crime area and was a victim of crime as were many friends and neighbors who lived in the area. I now live in a nicer area and know far fewer people who experienced anything like what we did in our old neighborhood. Environment makes a HUGE difference with kids. Just the stress of living somewhere that you don't feel safe can very negatively impact your parenting. OP might be stuck between a rock and a hard place, and only she can judge that. Glad to hear the one couple is gone at least.


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## Mammajamma (Feb 9, 2008)

Wait a second...maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough, but I don't recall you mentioning previously " and no man with common sense would be holding someone else's daughter and *slapping her butt* or tickling her under her shirt. " That stuck out to me because that is so obviously molestation! If anyone touched my daughter's butt- she would feel uncomfortable and would tell immediately. That sort of touching, especially from a stranger is *unacceptable!* Also, as a side note- I do believe if the man " slapped " any part of a child that was not his- especially in the lewd way that you described, it should be possible to legally hold it against him. Forget calling cps- call the police! the mother should press charges for that man's lewd conduct with a minor and possible assault- since he should not have put his hands on that child in any way, especially slapping on the behind! This should also be enough to cover the mother's end of a cps investigation ( in case any one else called on her because of neglect or whatnot) because it would show that she was invested enough to protect her children rather than passively accepting apologies that may or may not be real from creepos with wandering hands.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I agree 100%. I did mention the tickling previously, not sure about eh butt slapping. I think that came out when the ther mother and I spoke to her.

Unfortunately we are in a very small town which has serously the stupidest police officers God ever made. Recently (in connection with the drug use of that other couple) they decided to search the building for drugs. I was fully prepared to be searched and expected it to last a while. It lasted under 5 minutes. I expected mattresses to be slashed or at least flipped over, drawers to be pulled out, pictures taken of the wall etc. All they did, literally, was LOOK AROUND with their EYES. They didn't bring dogs or anything. It was insane. after they searched th whol building they said they had found some baggies of cocaine downstairs as well as some paraphernalia but they "couldn't prove whose they were." Uh, fingerprinting, anyone? Drug testing? They found bottles labeled for 360 morphine pills in the older couple's room, but because they had a prescription they again "couldn't do anything." How about investigating why a docgtor would rpescribe 360 morphine pills to someone? The police here are idiots.

Sadly I have no confidence that they would handle it right. They'd probably find some way to screw that up too.







Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Mammajamma*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

I think you have watched too many cop movies, lol. The police have rules they adhere to in regards to what they can and can not search and when. They don't just pullout knives and start slicing up peoples houses.

I am happy to hear the couple is gone though. Did they leave voluntarily the same day they were asked? I'm just wondering, cause legally they need to be given notice I believe, and they went mighty quick.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers*
> 
> I think you have watched too many cop movies, lol. The police have rules they adhere to in regards to what they can and can not search and when. They don't just pullout knives and start slicing up peoples houses.
> 
> I am happy to hear the couple is gone though. Did they leave voluntarily the same day they were asked? I'm just wondering, cause legally they need to be given notice I believe, and they went mighty quick.


no, not the movies. Where I'm from, that's what they do. I've had it happen to me and seen it happen to others plenty of times. I don't know the details about the couple. It was pretty weird; they were there and then bam! they were leaving.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Did they have a warrant? If not, the search was illegal. There are constitutional protections (meaning, they can't do it ever period anywhere in the US if they want the evidence to be admissible in court) that protect people from "unreasonable search and seizure" and without boring you to death and probably confusing the life out of you, the rules for what constitute that are pretty arduous and irritating. It's not that easy to search someone's home legally.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Most definitely inappropriate. I would be seriously concerned.


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## dakotablue (Jun 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Would government housing be covered under this? Kinda like how at school your locker is technically not yours and is subject to search whenever they want? If home owners/landlords give permission...

There is a gray area I think when its not 'your' home. ???


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## Hykue (Sep 3, 2010)

Okay, so I just want to make a couple of things clear at the outset:

1. The "slapping her butt" thing makes all the rest of this a moot point. I can't imagine a situation where that was ok. Oof.

2. The fact that it made you so uncomfortable you would have had a panic attack seems like it is pretty good evidence that you should follow your instincts. This is a normal, healthy part of being human and protecting ourselves and others, not necessarily a "symptom" of past abuse. I have never suffered any semblance of abuse, and I have CORRECTLY had a bad feeling about guys and their intentions at least twice. In one situation, the guy cornered and tried to grope another girl later that night (she was 17 and in the military, and incapacitated him and then locked him in the house, so he didn't get his way that night at least). I have had that creeped out feeling and obeyed it many more times - I'll never know whether it was necessary, but I still think I was right to listen.

3. I already think that the OP did the right thing in this situation.

On the other hand, I do think that with the (laudable) increase in awareness of child sexual abuse in our society, we have also acquired a disappointing amount of paranoia and fear. I have a dear friend whom I have known since we were teenagers, whom I dated for years, and who I might even be married to if he had a bit more ambition. One of his best features, in my opinion, is that he would make a fantastic father (if he only understood the importance of discipline of any kind). He loves children, and I've seldom met anyone that understands children as quickly as he does. He interacts with them in a way that they really enjoy, and they trust him very quickly. I want to make it crystal clear, if there is one person in my life that I KNOW is not a sexual predator, especially of children, it's this guy. I can absolutely imagine him playing with a little girl and her jumping up on his lap, straddling him, and it would never occur to him that anyone could possibly think that that was inappropriate . . . because he would NEVER be able to think of that as sexual. I can imagine him tickling that girl, and I can even imagine him tickling her under her shirt - but this is because I know a little girl who put my hands under her shirt for tickling her sides when I had just met her that day. She was only four, so it's a little different, but I'm just saying that it's not a stretch for me to imagine a completely innocent situation that contains many of the aspects that people here have called red flags. There are men who will completely innocently interact with kids in a way that crosses their mothers' boundaries, but not the boundaries of decency, and not the kids' boundaries. And yes, this friend has had mothers call their children away from interacting with him and look at him suspiciously for being in the playground. I can understand their perspective, but it makes me really sad for him, because he's just a big kid at heart, and enjoys the kind of honest interaction with no baggage that only kids can give you . . . and this happened even when he was 15 and really was still a kid, not now when he's an adult . . . because he's learned that if he doesn't want to creep people out, he should stay out of playgrounds. Even though he still likes swings and slides.

Again, I want to make it clear that this situation doesn't sound ok to me. The clincher was the butt-slapping. Not ok. Creepy and awful and makes me feel a little sick. But even without that, there are a few little things that I didn't like on reading through the posts before that one. Both of them are issues of control. The man telling her that he was going to tickle her under her shirt strikes me as off. My dad used to pull up my shirt to zerbert my belly (I hope you all watched Bill Cosby and know what a zerbert is, or you'll think I'm nuts) all the time. It was definitely completely innocent. But he never told me he was going to . . . and besides, he was my dad. But even as my dad, it would be kind of weird to tell a kid that . . . the only context I can think that this would be ok is if it was to cause that little bit of "anticipation of tickling" that can be so fun as a kid. Like when I tell my dog in my teasing slow voice, "I'm gonna get your booo-oooone." On the other hand, if the guy had sounded like that, I can't imagine the OP being freaked out by it. The bigger red flag for me was the issue of who was controlling the tickling. This is an issue where some adults genuinely don't know, but kids have boundaries for tickling. The way to respect them is to let them be the ones controlling the tickling. It's a give and take, you have to pay attention to when the kid wants to be tickled and when they need to stop for a breath, etc. It's not a definite sign of a pedophile to be unaware of this, but it does make me a little uncomfortable.

So for me, what it comes down to is this - if I had walked in on a situation where an eight-year-old girl was straddling a man she had met earlier that week, and he had his hands in her shirt tickling her back, and she was clearly the one in control - telling him when to tickle with eye contact, with her hands, with body language (like lunging at him to start him tickling), I wouldn't have even blinked. On the other hand, if I saw the situation the OP described, with the man obviously controlling the tickling - not stopping when she clearly needed to breathe, telling her what he's going to do (assuming it wasn't a teasing kind of telling, and even that's a little sketchy), or restraining her with any effectiveness, then it would be creepy. If other people have different boundaries about this kind of thing, that's fine I just wanted to point out that there are situations in which the actual physical details described might not mean anything bad at all. But the subtext does.

Also, I think that Gavin de Becker's Gift of Fear is a fantastic book.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

OP, I just wanted to post because I'm so happy that you're getting away from your toxic family and finding our own space in life. Thank you for speaking up and looking out for this little girl and your little ones. Hugs and good vibes to you.


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