# Circumcision - Why is it bad?



## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Sorry if my title is offensive but I wanted to get everyone's attention. I have read up on the issue just a little little bit so far and honestly I have only found positive reasons for circumsizing (like I said I haven't done much research yet). Well I'm just curious why it's so bad- I'm not asking for personal opinions b/c that's not going to help my research. If you have medical and scientific reasons why circumcision shouldn't be done please please post it here b/c I would like to know a LOT more about this topic.

Right now I am in the middle of this whole issue. I have only heard a few things from both sides of the issue but not enough to sway me to one side or the other. If I end up having a boy I want to be 100% behind which ever decision I make. But yea I'd like to see what some of you have to say b/c I never realized this was such a hot topic-mainly b/c in my family everyone was circumcised for religious purposes so it was never discussed. Since that won't be the case I'm curious to know more about the subject.
BTW thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me on the subject.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Well - are you going to have his earlobe chopped off? His eyelid? So why would you ever consider having any other perfectly healthy, perfectly normal, perfectly wonderful piece of skin cut off? Did you circumcize your daughters to prevent yeast infections, uti's etc? Would you? Would you circumcize yourself if you had repeated uti's or yeast infections?

Umm, and it's not your body, it's his so why would you do something so irreversible to a harmless baby?

If you don't circumcize, he can always change his mind later, but if you do - it's done, and gone.

What reasons have you found that make you think it is the right thing to do?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

be nice guys. just give the clinical facts this time around. thats all she wants. i will write up a post in a second


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## saturndude (Mar 13, 2006)

Dear Confused Princess,

Someone recently asked the same question. A lady gained custody of several children when her sister died unexpectedly









I was amazed at the quality of the evidence and reasoning as well as the speed of the responses. Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=488387

Hope this helps.

Saturndude's 2005 stats:
Miles on 2001 Saturn SL2: 4,500
Miles on 1981 Honda CM400T: 5,197
bone marrow transplants: one
value of restoring my foreskin: PRICELESS


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## poppyqwn (Jan 5, 2005)

I don't normally post here...but I can think of one very real reason not to. The procedure can be preformed incorrectly and the results can be just awful. Not only swelling and infection (which can happen even in a perfectly executed procedure) but then a lifetime of deformity and nerve damage and then trying to decide whether or not to expose your child to yet another surgery to cosmetically "fix" the first procedure.

Happened to us. DS2 is almost three and still has problems.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Here are some facts you need to know about the foreskin.

The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

The moveable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto its shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or "glans" of the penis for the life of its owner.
80-85% of the world's male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America).

Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child.

The forskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

Male circumsision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

No health organization in the world recommends circumcision for male infants.

The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 53% today.

There are NO medical benifits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such most insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

When the forskin is removed 30% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Depending on the type of circ and the dr doing it up 30-50% of the total penile skin is lost.

Odds are the intact penis will be the norm depending on what part of the USA you live in.
I repeat from above there are NO medical benifits NONE, ZERO to RIC insurance companies are not paying for it more and more since it is considered a cosmetic surgery.

As long as proper care is taken of the intact penis ie. NEVER RETRACT IT WASH IT LIKE A FINGER AND NEVER LET ANY ONE ELSE RETRACT IT. The intact penis will work as nature intended. The foreskin is like the vagina it is self cleaning for the most part until puberty and sexual activity start there is no need to clean under it unless the owner of the penis just wants to do so.

The resources sticky has tons of great info and websites that go indepth as to the reason why circ is so bad.
Here is a link to that sticky: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=207626

Please watch the circ video for yourself be warned tho it is graphic and can cause nightmares


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Routine circumcisions implies that all baby boys are born needing surgery. We spend 9 mths hoping that we will have a perfect and healthy baby but then (in the US anyway) if it's a boy even when born with all the right parts that's not good enough, with in a day or two of life baby boys "need" to have cosmetic surgery on their genitals. Does that make sense at all, when you think of it like that doesn't it seem absurd?!!

www.mothersagainstcirc.org
www.nocirc.org
www.noharmm.org
These are just a few sites of many that should answer your questions.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

The plusses you have probably read:

Lower's UTI's:

Myth: The studies that show this lowers UTI's the test subjects were primarily premies who were circed. That and the chance of an intact male has a lower chance of a UTI than an intact girl.

Also, countries that perform female circumcisions claim they also lower UTI's.

Lower's chances of STD's:

Myth: Condoms do this. The recent studies in africa have been debunked by the respectable medical community. The only publishes that this study are getting are ones that the backers are paying for. No free medical publication has published the findings of this study. This is the Aids study I am talking about.

The study is faulty because they took 2 equal groups of men. Circumcized 1/2 of them and then sent them on their way and studied their findings. Well the intact men were having sex during the first 8-12 weeks it took the circumcized men to recover from their surgery.

They cut the study short because the circumcized men were winding up getting HIV at a faster rate than the Intact men, if they would have continued the study to its completion it would have reversed the results but the backers were wanting to Prove Circ was better, not get true scientific facts.

Onto the pros of intact.

The Foreskin is a prepuce. It is actually adhered to the head of the penis for the first 3-13 years of a childs life. It can detatch earlier but it is rare.

This prepuce is designed to keep bacteria and bad things away from the head of the penis, as well as protect it from outside damage. It is a protective layer of skin.

The head of a penis is actually intended to be an internal organ. Much like the Clitoris. The clitoris CAN be exposed to air, but for the most part it remains behind the safety of the clitoral hood, which is similar but not equal to the forskin.

The head of the penis is supposed to be kept moist. When you circumcize someone it removes this. It causes the head of the penis to dry out, and rub against foreign surfaces constantly. This causes the head of the penis to becom scarred and katerinized. It actually desensitizes the penis. Men will say 'I orgasm just fine'

That may be true, but sex for a man should be similar to sex for a woman. A woman typically enjoys the entire act, the orgasm is the culmination of the act. A man only looks forward to the orgasm in their experiance if they are circumcized. If a man is intact he enjoys the entire experiance more.

Some men who have restored their forskins through excerises you can find at www.norm.org have claimed that they can now feel the actualy differences in the different areas of the vagina during intercourse. This is because restoring the foreskin helps to restore the feeling in the glans/head of the penis.

Onto the foreskin itself. It is almost 50% of the skin of the penis full of erotic and sensual nerves. It is not just a usesless piece of skin. It is used during masturbation. Foreplay and Intercourse. It gives pleasure to the person who owns it during these acts. It has 3 pieces. The foreskin/Ridged Band/Mucousal skin.

The foreskin is the elastic outer protective coating, the mucousal skin is nearly identicle to the type of tissue found underneath the eyelid and the ridged band is the tip of the foreskin that will help to keep the foreskin tight when flacid.

When circumcized you lose the mucousal skin and the ridged band, they can not be recovered during the restoration process.

Another piece that is lost during the Circumcision is the frenulum. It is similar to the piece of skin that attatches your gums to your lower lip in the front of your mouth, or the piece that attatches the tounge to the bottom of the mouth.

On an intact penis this is found at the base of the head. It is the most sensitive part of the penis, and is destroyed during a circumcision. You may find that the man you are with is slightly more sensitive in this place even if he is circumcized, but it is utterly different for men who are intact. And this is destroyed and can never be recovered.

80% of the worlds population is intact.

80% of the worlds viagra is sold in america

of that 20% of the world that is circumcized? over 17% of them reside in america.

Think that viagra sales correlate to circumcision?

Erectyle dysfunction is more rampant in younger demographics in america than reported in other countries.

I was circumcized when I was a baby. I wish I wasn't.

This is a surgery that can not be undone, it should be left to the person who owns the penis when they are old enough to sign their own papers if they want to get it done......

It is a cosmetic surgery. Majority of the medical insurance companies in america will not pay for this because it is 'elective' which means 'cosmetic' or 'unnessesary'

Doesn't it seem insane that we would put our children through a major surgery within a week of being alive just because of cosmetics?

One last thing...... 200 babies world wide die of circ's a year (statistically) and yes, a few of those are in the states.... more than a few actually.... but they put the cause of death as 'Bleeding to death' or 'complications to a circumcision'.......

no children bleed to death a year due to having a foreskin, there is a risk of death in EVERY surgery...... why risk it?


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

There are no medical reasons to do this,well I certainly don't believe the one's they are coming up with, but I guess maybe you do, it's a big con and there was me thinking we women had it bad. I can't comprehend why parents would want to do this to their beautiful sons. Beyond belief. I cannot help but give a personal opinion on this. This world is worrying.


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## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

AAP considers it cosmetic surgery.


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. The AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) even states that it's not beneficial (although their statement is a little too wishy-washy for my tastes!).

Circumcision is a completely cosmetic surgery performed on an unconsenting newborn. How do you know that your son doesn't want his foreskin? What gives anyone the right to remove another person's body parts?

This article is a great one: http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

When I think about it the first thought that comes to mind is why if you are born a girl you are born perfect but if you are a boy you "need" to be fixed? Why is it so important to punish a boy for being born a boy?

Just a few thoughts that go thru my mind every day when I think of RIC.


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

> iReasons Not to have it done.
> 
> - Circumcision is very unnecessary. In the USA, we are often talked scared about stories of UTI's and penile cancer among a multitude of other supposed problems with the penis. All that is is scare-talking. Every medical organization states that circumcision is unnecessary.
> 
> ...


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

One of the big factors for us was realizing that if at some point in the future the medical community realizes that circumcision cures all my ds can always have it done then.

If, on the other hand, if we had it done and later the medical community realizes that circ is unneeded and damaging my ds would be stuck with the results of my decision.

If ds wants it done later that's his decision.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Every day, I thank the heavens above that I left my son intact (did NOT circumcise him.) He is perfect the way he is. God and/or Mother Nature is in charge of everything, including the foreskin. I know you just wanted facts, but that's my fact.


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
Sorry if my title is offensive but I wanted to get everyone's attention. I have read up on the issue just a little little bit so far and honestly I have only found positive reasons for circumsizing (like I said I haven't done much research yet). Well I'm just curious why it's so bad- I'm not asking for personal opinions b/c that's not going to help my research. If you have medical and scientific reasons why circumcision shouldn't be done please please post it here b/c I would like to know a LOT more about this topic.

Right now I am in the middle of this whole issue. I have only heard a few things from both sides of the issue but not enough to sway me to one side or the other. If I end up having a boy I want to be 100% behind which ever decision I make. But yea I'd like to see what some of you have to say b/c I never realized this was such a hot topic-mainly b/c in my family everyone was circumcised for religious purposes so it was never discussed. Since that won't be the case I'm curious to know more about the subject.
BTW thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me on the subject.

I wish you would think about it from the other side. Why is it right?? Why would you have unnecessary surgery performed on a newborn?

If you can explain to us why you think he *needs* this surgery then we can better address your concerns. You have been given a lot of information so far, what do you think?


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poppyqwn*
I don't normally post here...but I can think of one very real reason not to. The procedure can be preformed incorrectly and the results can be just awful. Not only swelling and infection (which can happen even in a perfectly executed procedure) but then a lifetime of deformity and nerve damage and then trying to decide whether or not to expose your child to yet another surgery to cosmetically "fix" the first procedure.

Happened to us. DS2 is almost three and still has problems.









Thank you for taking the time to post here. Everyone always thinks it will happen to someone else. I had a botched circ as an infant and a botched re-circ at age six. The bottom line is that I'm the one who has had to live with the results my whole life, not my parents, not the doctors, nor anyone else in this society or any religious community. The worst thing about it is knowing it was all for no good reason.

Thanks again for speaking out. My best wishes to you and your son.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hi there and welcome. Congrats on your pregnancy. I have two boys who are intact and also am very pleased with this decision. the more I learn about circumcision, the more glad I am actually for the decision we made. I too want to second checking out the "Web Resources" sticky at the top of the forum. Lot of good stuff there. I also like this article:
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
It is a summary of recent medical studies concerning circumcision complete with references if you would like to read the whole article.

Also, I would be curious to know what positive reasons you have found for circumcision? I have yet to find one that is actually true, most are based on myth and outdated information. It might be easier to have your concerns adressed specifically, that way, nothing gets overlooked









Good luck to you on your information quest, I hope you find what you are looking for!

Take care,
Tara


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Hi! Thank you for taking the time to make a decision _before_ the baby is born! It is great to have plenty of time to decide and make the decision/agreement together with your partner.

1) Many of us know someone where there were complications of the circ. This could be a "slip of the knife" or a bad infection. In some cases, complications result in significant or total loss of sexual function. These complications are "dealt with" by urologists and may require general anesthesia for attempted repair. Not something any parent wants to risk for their baby. The peds and ob/gyns keep doing circs - they don't realize the mess they are making because complications are always referred to a specialist.

2) "Pain relief" is given in 30-50% of infant circs. But even with the "pain relief" the newborn will feel pain. Last year I had a mole removed from my face, and got 2 injections of novacaine at the site. It was increadibly painful, worse than any dental injection of novacaine I have ever had. This is the same stuff they use on newborns, and will hurt the newborns too.

3) Even with an anesthetic, the infant's body can detect that it is being cut, and go into shock. The shock and recovery period can interfere with the breastfeeding relationship.

4) Circ rates are less than 50% in the US (and 0-10% in many European countries) And they are dropping. So your kid may feel "weird" or "different" if he is circed.

Best regards,

-sleeplessMommy


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Research what the foreskin is FOR:

http://research.cirp.org (based on two papers published in the British Journal of Urology)

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org (scroll down to the web video titled "The Prepuce"


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm glad you asked and so will your baby be!

Have you looked at the stickies at the top of the forum? They are full of lots of good medical information as well as reasons to answer any social/cultural questions you may have as well.

It would be an excellent place to start.


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Welcome! And because you already have a wealth of information from others, I'm unsure whether you will welcome any more! But...

'Dr Janet Menage, MA, MB, ChB
England

Circumcision is a euphemism for genital reduction surgery or genital mutilation, performed by medically-licensed or unqualified practitioners for various reasons. It is important to define it honestly, for that is how the mind interprets it, with or without superimposed denials, explanations and intellectualisations.

Many circumcisions are performed on children, who, by definition are not able to give informed consent of the kind available to adults. They are vulnerable to coercion and manipulation and generally have little say in what happens to their bodies medically & surgically. They are not usually allowed to say no to medical procedures because it is deemed that parents & doctors "know best". However, it is unlikely that any child, asked if they would like a person with a knife to cut off part of their penis, would agree to such an action. This would be a normal psychological reaction to the threat of attack and is overruled at some psychological cost.

One man, who had been subjected to circumcision at the age of three years old, vividly recalled at the age of thirty, how he had been undressed and his penis manipulated by a man in a mask pre-operatively, without his consent. The child had experienced an erection about which he was embarrassed, and then, post-operatively found himself with a bleeding, painful penis from which the foreskin had been amputated without his permission. This event had changed his life. He was angry that this had been done to him and humiliated by his powerlessness to protect himself from what felt like sexual manipulation. He felt that he had been sexually abused. In any other context than the medical one, the same sequence of events would be open to an interpretation of sexual abuse. To the child, the psychological impact is the same, whether it is illegal rape or legalised medical activity.

Another man, who was circumcised at the age of seven, asked what was going to happen to him in hospital. He was told that it was "nothing" and he didn't need to worry his head about it. After the operation he was devastated to find that part of his penis was missing and that his trust in his parents' words had been misplaced. It was as if his experience of losing part of his body was not worth a mention or an explanation.

The child may grow up in ignorance of his circumcision, particularly if it has been done shortly after birth and if his peers are also circumcised. However, when it is discovered that part of his genitalia has been removed without his permission, often for no good reason, there is a loss reaction amounting to grief. The loss may be minimised and trivialised so as not to expose the mind to too much psychic pain; the pain of loss is profound. There may be a denial of its significance and, in order to maintain the image of the parent as "good", it may be idealised as a "good thing" which parents should do to their children if they care about them. Hence, the transgenerational passage of circumcision practice from father to son. For the cycle of mutilation to be broken, at least one generation would need to face the true nature of the activity and acknowledge the harm and the pain caused. This is a courageous act, since it brings into play feelings of betrayal and abandonment by one's own parents; that instead of protecting one's body from harm, they have given their child into the hands of a stranger to remove part of his body.

The intellectualisation of a harmful act is a way of turning "bad" into "good" - the thought process may run thus: "my parents cut off part of my body and despite the fact that I didn't like it, my parents are good - so cutting off part of my body was good - therefore, to be a good parent myself, I must do the same to my son...". And so the cycle of abuse continues. Similarly within the medical profession- "I was circumcised/have done circumcisions - I was not harmed/have not harmed my patients - therefore to circumcise is trivial, harmless and necessary..." If the doctor is in a process of trying to deny that he has been harmed by his own circumcision, he may be psychologically compelled to repeat the act on his patients to "prove" that circumcision is "harmless". In addition, when a circumcision victim becomes a circumciser, he is no longer powerless to attack - he is now the powerful attacker, thus redressing some of the balance in relation to his own fear of repetition of his own trauma.

Most important of all, is to enter the child's world and see circumcision for what it is from the child's perspective. It is a forced robbery of a treasured part of his body and nobody except he, as an adult, can legitimately give permission for its removal.'

_*And*_...

We all know and acknowledge the protective function of the foreskin. During a boy's early years it serves as an excellent barrier against infection. At muturity it keeps the glans soft, moist and exquisitely sensitive.

But these benefits are the precursor to the paramount part the foreskin plays during the sexual act itself. I cannot do better than copy here a section from a post in your thread which quoted Paul Fliess. Here it is again...

* Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
* Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
* Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, moveable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
* The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

I can attest to this - and its opposite effect following circumcision.

Christopher


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

It is bad because it strips a person of his human right to decide on his own which *permanent* physical alterations with severe consequences he wants. Not even parents have that right.


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## Boobs (Apr 17, 2004)

Good for you for looking into it before it's too late! It can't be undone.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Please visit this site:

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

Watch the video called "The Prepuce" and then you will truly understand why you should NOT cut it off of your child. If it doesn't play for you please read this info. instead:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../foreskin.html

Circumcision hurts. It is damaging. Have you seen the "graphic circ video" thread yet? A must if you are really considering it:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/161143..._circumcision/

The prepuce (foreskin) is a healthy functional tissue. It is not a birth defect. I suspect that you have been conditioned to believe that it is. It does not belong to you either. Ethically speaking, it is the true property of your son.

He can always cut it off...but it can never be replaced. He should be the one to weigh the facts about his own penis. It really should be _his decision._


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## Carrie Posey (Jul 10, 2004)

Everyone has written fabulous responses, so what they said and, I did not do it to my son because it would hurt him and the "reasons" to circ were not good enough for me to put him though that.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MRDCatLvr*
80-85% of the world's male population has intact genitals, *including nearly all European males* (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America).










I'm still in teh middle of reading everything..thanks to those who have supported info. I appreciate it...anyways I was curious where you got this-the part about European males ...Anyways I still have a lot more to read..


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Good for you for finding info.

You've got good info here, nothing really to add.

Except to remind that circumcision started in USA 100 years ago to stop boys from masturbating.

Over 80% of world's men are intact and in many places - like here in Scandinavia - doctors flat out refuse to do it. It is concidered human rights violation.

Scandinavia is 100% intact. Our STD&HIV rates are lowest in western world, penile cancer is so rare that there aren't any statistics to provide and LESS than 6 men out of
100 000 get themselves circumcised either for religious or medical reasons. That pretty much makes foreskin one of the healthiest bodypart on human body.

These kind of comments started circumcision in USA 100 years ago;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurous effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts." -- Angel Money. Treatment of Disease In Children.Philidelphia: P. Blakiston, 1887. p.421

1888: 15% of the U.S. male population circumcised
"A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." John Harvey Kellogg [the breakfast cereal tycoon], Treatment for Self-Abuse and Its Effects, Plain Facts for Old and Young, Burlington, Iowa: P. Segner & Co. 1888, p. 295.

1895: 15% of the U.S. male population circumcised
"In all cases of masturbation circumcision is undoubtedly the physicians' closest friend and ally ... To obtain the best results one must cut away enough skin and mucous membrane to rather put it on the stretch when erections come later. There must be no play in the skin after the wound has thoroughly healed, but it must fit tightly over the penis, for should there be any play the patient will be found to readily resume his practice, not begrudging the time and extra energy required to produce the orgasm. It is true, however, that the longer it takes to have an orgasm, the less frequently it will be attempted, consequently the greater the benefit gained ... The younger the patient operated upon the more pronounced the benefit, though occasionally we find patients who were circumcised before puberty that require a resection of the skin, as it has grown loose and pliant after that epoch." E. J. Spratling, Masturbation in the Adult, Medical Record, vol. 24 (1895): pp. 442-443.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

*anyways I was curious where you got this-the part about European males*

Well, I am from Europe. Circumcision is not done here. Doctors in many places refuse to do it.

If you asked an avarage man in Europe to get circumcise because of health reasons he would probably laugh at you ... if you asked European dad to circumcise his son he would probably punch you and think you are somekind of crazy sick person. Male circumcision is concidered as bad as female circ here. Why on earth would anyone cut baby's genitals?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Thank you so much for looking into this







You're such a wonderful mom! Everyone else has given you a good amount of helpful facts, and I'd like to share some personal experience.

My husband is intact (not circumcised) and he has never had any problems with his foreskin. He is very happy that he has it and I am very happy that he has it too. The intact penis looks so natural and normal and the foreskin is SUCH an integral part of the penis that I can't even imagine how a circumcised penis works (having never been with a circumcised man). My brothers were both circumcised because "it's what you do with baby boys" (what my mom told me when I was 11). My mom (and brothers)didn't have a choice because she didn't have the information to make an informed decision. I am so thankful that my MIL DID have that information and protected my wonderful husband when he was too young to protect himself









One of the best reasons for not circumcising is that if your son decides to be circumcised later in life he can always have it done. If you circumcise him as a baby then he can never again be intact no matter how much he may want to be...

love and peace.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradoalice*
I wish you would think about it from the other side. Why is it right?? Why would you have unnecessary surgery performed on a newborn?

If you can explain to us why you think he *needs* this surgery then we can better address your concerns. You have been given a lot of information so far, what do you think?

Normally I wouldn't reply to someone who obviously didn't read my whole post clearly.I never said I think anyone *NEEDS* the surgery. I was just asking why some of you find it so important to "tell the world" so to speak(that's the impression i got from other threads posted on this topic.)
Personally I see that a lot of you are using this to add your two cents and I had asked only for info that was medical/scientifically given. Everyone has an opinion but I'm not gonna make a decision based on people's opinions b/c that would be pretty irresponsible. So no I disagree..I haven't been given a lot of information-I've been given a lot of opinions. (sp?)

As far as statistical info. I'm having trouble believing the whole "80% of the world is intact, etc." I'm not saying that it's not true so don't get all mad at me..I just saying it's hard for me to comprehend since I've never met anyone who wasn't circumsized and I haven't lived a sheltered life. So it's kinda interesting that most of the world is intact and I've come across all the ones who aren't LoL go figure right?


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
*anyways I was curious where you got this-the part about European males*

Well, I am from Europe. Circumcision is not done here. Doctors in many places refuse to do it.

If you asked an avarage man in Europe to get circumcise because of health reasons he would probably laugh at you ... if you asked European dad to circumcise his son he would probably punch you and think you are somekind of crazy sick person. Male circumcision is concidered as bad as female circ here. Why on earth would anyone cut baby's genitals?

No offense but I completely disagree with you.And yes I am speaking from experience..although i cannot speak for ALL of Europe I do know a helluva lot of europeans who were circumsized at birth


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*

One of the best reasons for not circumcising is that if your son decides to be circumcised later in life he can always have it done. If you circumcise him as a baby then he can never again be intact no matter how much he may want to be...


Even though it's your opinion...it has sound reasoning behind it. Thanks for being so nice and non forceful about your reply


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
It is bad because it strips a person of his human right to decide on his own which *permanent* physical alterations with severe consequences he wants. Not even parents have that right.


Could you please enlighten me on these *severe*consequences; i would appreciate it.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

*No offense but I completely disagree with you.And yes I am speaking from experience..although i cannot speak for ALL of Europe I do know a helluva lot of europeans who were circumsized at birth*

That is interesting since I have lived in Europe for 40 years and never met one. In England (where circ started in Victorian England but ended quite soon)I guess there might be some who circ - Revamp is from Britain and can give more correct info.

I would be very interested in knowing from where these men are you know. Since in no part of Europe(outside England)circ has never been practised I find it surprising that you have met tons of Europian men who are circ'ed as infants.
Also here Catholic and Lutheran churches have always been adamantly against circumcision. Same with medical organisations here - even in England. Maybe the men you have met are jewish or muslim?

Circumcision as a cultural practise started in England(to stop masturbation), from there it spread to english speaking countries. Australia, Canada and England has dropped the practise pretty much totally. Elsewhere in Europe it has never been practised(and condemmed by church).
Asia does not circumcise, outside Islamic countries. In South America circumcision is not practised, in Africa and middle east muslims and jews circumcise, others don't. Russia and eastern Europe have never practised circumcision, in fact circumcision was even forbidden by law in Soviet Union.

Circumcision is practised either A)religious reasons B)cultural reasons.

A) Muslims and jews circumcise(though not all).
B)only country where cultural circumcision is practised is USA and even there the circ rates have fallen near 50%(and they continue to fall).

So that 80% is pretty correct.

I find your claim about circumcising Europe pretty amazing. Ofcourse you are wellcome to come here to check things. You might be very surprised to hear what kind of answers you would get from men and parents.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

What is lost in circumcision;

http://www.norm.org/lost.html


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

This post: (watch the video)
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...85&postcount=5

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html
The stats for 2005 were 9%. No one really does it here anymore.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...aec0e3dcbc&p=1

www.intact.ca


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Please read this article from Mothering (I found it more quickly on another site....). It outlines (and is well referenced) many of the risks of circumcision and the benefits of having a foreskin. It also answers your question about European rates of circumcision







The statistics are from 1997 and rates have fallen since then.

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

Quote:

How Common Is Circumcision?

Circumcision is almost unheard of in Europe, South America, and non-Muslim Asia. In fact, only 10 to 15 percent of men throughout the world are circumcised, the vast majority of whom are Muslim.29 The neonatal circumcision rate in the western US has now fallen to 34.2 percent.30 This relatively diminished rate may surprise American men born during the era when nearly 90 percent of baby boys were circumcised automatically, with or without their parents' consent.
I hope that helps! Best wishes with getting through all this info







: It can be overwhelming at first for sure.

love and peace.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

My medical $.02. What would the treatments be for girls that had analgous problems with their genitals? Is the answer for girls EVER an amputative surgery?

Lets take Urinary tract infections...

UTIs seem to be a major excuse for people circumcising their sons, yet girls are way more likely to develop chronic or acute UTIs (I know, I was one of those girls. Had I been a boy in these cut-happy United States, I probably would have had my genitals cut







) Why would a girl get an antibiotic, but a boy needs surgery or even prophylactic surgery, to prevent or cure the same illness when to even _suggest_ the same for a girl would result in an immediate outrage?

And as for cancer, statistics (available through the search feature or google) show that a boy has more likelyhood of getting breast cancer than penile cancer. Girls also are at risk for various genital cancers (perhaps at rates equal or higher than those of penile cancer, but I don't have time to google right now) but, once again they do not have usually have any healthy tissue forcibly removed shortly after birth "just in case."

i also agree with a previous poster. Your medical, scientific concerns could be better addressed if you could articlate them more precisely.


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## cristina63303 (Apr 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
No offense but I completely disagree with you.And yes I am speaking from experience..although i cannot speak for ALL of Europe I do know a helluva lot of europeans who were circumsized at birth

Here's Germany calling. Nope, we don't circumcise here either, and we do find it utterly barbaric (it is, actually)

I have two boys and a girl. All intact. ALL their friends are intact. I know, we have a swimming pool, so it's pretty obvious when they all change into their swimmsuits.

Just yesterday, a very close friend, who happens to be my doctor (she's an internist/GP) was here with her kids and I spoke about this again, about how it's incredible that circumcision is routinely done in America. She said: "die sind alle bekloppt, warum würde man so was tun" (which means they're all crazy, why would anyone do that?). They really can't believe it here, the fact that a "civilized" (for lack of a better word) country like USA hangs on to an archaic practice designed to curb masturbation in boys during the victorian era by removing a highly sensitive part of the male sexual organ.

My kids in fact do have two circumcised friends - two muslim boys. So, my guess, since you mentioned religion historically being the cause for circumcision in your family, whether the Europeans you have had contact with were also circumcised for religious reasons (Jewish? Muslim?)

Actually, even people of Jewish faith apparently have difficulty getting a bris done here. I recently spoke to a Jewish friend (she has two daughters, fortunatelly, and is not likely to have any more children) who insists she would have it done "because it's what you do" if she had a boy (whatever). Anyway, she was telling me about how there is no Mohel in Germany! That all her friends had to fly THE guy in from Switzerland (even if it meant mortgaging their home to do so) to have a proper religious circumcision.

So, do not act so stunned about circumcision being practically non existent here. Europeans are just as horrified that it exists AT ALL in a technologically advanced country like USA.

Oh, and about the rest of the world, I also have some input from Latin America. You see, I live in Germany, but I happen to come from Venezuela where, I'm happy to report, men live happily with their foreskins and don't give a thought to parting with them.

CIRCUMCISION SHOULD NOT BE A DECISION THAT ONE NEEDS TO MAKE FOR A BABY. ONLY IN AMERICA IS IT ONE.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Britain here......

Nope, no routine infant circumcision here either.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I'm wondering if some of these European men she encountered were just erect and she couldn't tell the difference.


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## bente (Apr 1, 2002)

Checking in from Norway.
No one circumcises their babies here! I know of no Norwegian males who are circumsised.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Another person who lives in Britain here. I'm American, but my dh is British. He is intact, of course, as is our son.

DH went to boarding school growing up, however, so I've asked him about proportions of intact vs. circumcised. He says he knew of only one boy who was circed - all the rest (at this all-male boarding school!) were intact. The circed boy's Dad was in the military - dh isn't sure if that had something to do with his circed status.

We have a good friend over here who is gay, so I asked him about it. He was horrified at the idea of circ and assures me that he doesn't know any guys who are circed.

When I've mentioned circumcision to any of my friends over here, they are all either horrified or bemused - usually, they comment that they thought only Jews and Muslims circumcised their sons.

Interestingly, my FIL is intact, despite being 65 years old and growing up in an upper middle class family here in Scotland. When my MIL and I were discussing circumcision and this fact came up, she commented, 'Well, his mum was a doctor, so she must have known better than to do that to her sons'.

Which pretty much sums up the British attitude to circumcision.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Why give ancedotes? You can give the statements and numbers of these countries to prove your points.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Yet another Brit!

No RIC whatsoever here and yet we all us British men are somehow not collapsing all over London and the scenic shires clutching out groins as our foreskins destroy our penises and rob us of our lives.

Funny that.

Even stranger is my own experience with foreskin: all evidence from my nervous system suggests that it is an erogenous zone. I must be hallucinating I suppose, victim of some surreal delusion.

Seriously though, just leave your son's penis alone. If he wants to be done in later life then he can but if he is unhappy with being circumcised then he has lost stuff he can never get back.

Logically there is no case for it and medically no need.

Besides, intact is cheaper.


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)

Here's a page which statesn that 80% of the world's men are intact.
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/

Here's an article which states 85% of the world's men are not circumcised. Perhaps the fat that the first article was published in 1985, and the second was pubished in 1999 has something to do with it. Circumcision rates during that time have dropped dramatically in the USA, and continued to drop in Canada, Austraillia and New Zealand.
http://www.post-gazette.com/healthsc...990316cut4.asp

Here's a page explaining RIC does not exist in Europe.
http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/circ_world.html

A few decades ago, RIC was not uncommon in England. Perhaps those men you knew were born then? Now infant circumcision for non-religious purposes is about 1%. I have difficulty contemplating that you know a "hellova lot" of Europeans who were circumcised if they were not English. I have lived in Europe for many years, and knew not one man sexually who was circumcised at birth. Honestly, if you go to most places in Europe and mention circumcision, and your not jewish or muslim, they'll look at you like you have six heads.

Or perhaps as someone suggested, you saw these men while erect? Often, if you don't know what to look for, you can not tell the difference between and erect circumcised penis and an erect uncircumcised penis. Here's a link to a picture of an intact penis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imageenis_corrected.jpg

In Finland there was even legislation which would outlaw all sorts of circumcision.
http://www.circumstitions.com/News9.html#finland


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Maybe someone already posted this, but this is from Doctors Opposing Circumcision and has lots of links with sources: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

Here is a great article in the British Journal of Urology: http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/#n81
It is very scientific, but keep reading, esp. to the conclusion.

This also is full of links and cites: http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm

It is a weird thing to think that something you know as normal and necessary is actually not normal and harmful. I think most of us from the USA had this feeling at one point, but you have to keep an open mind and keep reading. Remember that in the USA we used to circumcise men AND women to prevent masturbation and other illnesses, things we would laugh about now. B/c it is the man's genitals, circumcision is not often seen for exactly what it is: a penis reduction surgery designed to reduce a man's sexual response. No one who is circumcised wants to admit that, and no parent who had it done to their child wants to admit it, either.

You say we are full of opinions, but we all know the facts so well that we don't even think of them anymore. Once you get used to the idea of not circumcising, what sticks in your head is how disgusting it is to amputate part of your newborn's genitals b/c you are used to the way it looks. If you do not have a child already, you cannot imagine how protective you will feel of that baby when he/she is born. That is why we get emotional.

Even if there were no hard cold facts to support not circumcising your baby, we still would not do it. Women have more problems with their genitals and breasts than men do with their foreskins, yet you would be horrified if someone circumcised their daughter to prevent UTIs or to keep her clean. Why should boys deserve less protection? Try to "think outside the box" and it will all be clear.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
I was just asking why some of you find it so important to "tell the world" so to speak(that's the impression i got from other threads posted on this topic.)
Personally I see that a lot of you are using this to add your two cents and I had asked only for info that was medical/scientifically given.


We give what we give. Take it or leave it. I just love it when "newbies" (as you are) dictate to us how our information will be presented. You're just lucky we're here in the first place, sister, spending our time because we find it important to do so. You don't listen to us? It's your son who will suffer because of it.

As for why I feel the need to "tell the world," as you put it (I call it being "loud and proud,") well, it's because so many people are misinformed. So many people understand that female genital mutilation is, well, mutilation, but they don't get that circumcision is male genital mutilation. Perhaps I've landed on planet Earth to be the one to tell them. (PS. As others have pointed out, it really isn't the whole world that needs to be told. Large segments of the USA still need to be told, though.)

My pregnant friends/acquaintances/co-workers/family members will have zillions of people telling them about the benefits of breastfeeding, for example (which I agree with), but I may be the *only* person telling them of the horrors of circ (and the ones who have listened to me thank me for it after their sons are born.) So, it really is my duty. But I can't fully explain the passion of an intactivist.......it's so deep within my soul (after being the mother of an intact boy for the past four years); it's not something that can be fully explained in two minutes.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

And in the US, 7 reported cases of traumatic amputation of the glans penis and/or urethra during circumcision. "Glanular amputation occurred in 6, 8-day-old neonates during ritual circumcision and in 1, 5-month-old infant circumcised by a physician." In this paper, they claim successful re-attachment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

And another mistake (sheldon clamp)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7861536

And another mitake (Mogen clamp)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8657537

And another one ... Canada

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16286143

And in this one, Replantation of testis and penis in a child... HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ubmed_docsu m


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
Normally I wouldn't reply to someone who obviously didn't read my whole post clearly.I never said I think anyone *NEEDS* the surgery. I was just asking why some of you find it so important to "tell the world" so to speak(that's the impression i got from other threads posted on this topic.)
Personally I see that a lot of you are using this to add your two cents and I had asked only for info that was medical/scientifically given. Everyone has an opinion but I'm not gonna make a decision based on people's opinions b/c that would be pretty irresponsible. So no I disagree..I haven't been given a lot of information-I've been given a lot of opinions. (sp?)

As far as statistical info. I'm having trouble believing the whole "80% of the world is intact, etc." I'm not saying that it's not true so don't get all mad at me..I just saying it's hard for me to comprehend since I've never met anyone who wasn't circumsized and I haven't lived a sheltered life. So it's kinda interesting that most of the world is intact and I've come across all the ones who aren't LoL go figure right?

I'm sorry if you think I didn't read your post correctly. My comment was based on this sentence of yours.

Quote:
I have read up on the issue just a little little bit so far and honestly I have only found positive reasons for circumsizing (like I said I haven't done much research yet)..

What reasons do you have for circumcising? Again, that would help everyone to know exactly what kind of information you need.

You have been given a ton of information. Not everything is easy to justify simply by studies and numbers, sometimes you just have to use common sense.

No medical agency in the world recommends routine infant circumcision, including our own American Academy of Pediatrics. Choosing to circumcise is choosing to have cosmetic surgery performed on a newborn. Baby boys are born with a foreskin that nature has designed for a purpose. These are facts. Can you give us some facts to justify the procedure?

You are giving the impression you think it should be done and want to know why it shouldn't. Again I ask that you assume that the foreskin is normal and healthy and natural. Why would you remove a healthy piece of skin from a healthy newborn child?


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Note: these are all from "mainstream medical publications"

"Acute venous stasis and swelling of the lower abdomen and extremities in an infant after circumcision" http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/3/216

Botched circumcisions kill 14 boys in a month http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...&artid=1489250

Scalded Skin Syndrome, outbreak in NJ hospital
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/curran1/

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/corbett1/

Anatomic variants associated with newborn circumcision complications. http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/mayer1/

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/fergusson/


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

"Circumcision that didn't heal kills boy" http://www.noharmm.org/evansdeath.htm


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

I was just asking why some of you find it so important to "tell the world" so to speak
I have 4 boys and 1 girl. 3 of my boys are circumsized. My last son was not circumsized. Hunter, the last one to be circumsized started bleeding badly after the procedure. We ended up at the hospital getting ready for a blood transfusion because of the blood loss. Thank goodness they were able to get the bleeding to stop. Hunter screamed for 3 days non-stop because of the pain.

That was when I started researching the procedure. Little to late. I can't believe I allowed myself NOT to be educated on it.

I will never forgive myself. I subjected my 3 older sons to what amounts to torture and mutilation. I can't imagine the pain they felt.

I can't turn back time or change what I've done to my older sons, but I can start making a difference. We left baby Andrew in tact, that was my first step.


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

I don't know what would be more compelling than stories from those who have done it (or men who had it done to them, almost always against their will) and regret it.......


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~*
What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.

If you go to www.cirp.org, they have many studies there that have been published in reputable journals such as the British Journal of Urology.

The deal with medical journals is, unless you have a subscription, you can't read the articles online (and they are WAY expensive).

But if you want to double-check that the articles at www.cirp.org are valid, you can do two things:

1) Go to your local medical school library and look up the journals and read the articles in hard copy.

2) Go online to the medical publisher and pay for a copy of the article.

Here is an example:

Here is the Taylor paper from the British Journal of Urology, 1996, which describes the structure of the foreskin.


And here is the abstract of the article from PubMed.

Here is the website of the British Journal of Urology.

And here is where you can view the abstract to the Taylor article from the British Journal of Urology.

It is actually very easy, if somewhat time consuming, to check medical journals online and see that the studies published at www.cirp.org are legitimate.

Keep in mind, too, that the American Academy of Pediatrics reviewed over 600 studies for its 1999 policy statement on circumcision (reaffirmed either this year or last, I don't remember) and found that after a review of ALL the evidence, *they do not recommend routine infant circumcision for medical or hygienic reasons.* If the AAP doesn't believe circumcision is necessary, why do you need to reinvent the wheel?


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## cristina63303 (Apr 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~*
What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.

Now, can you find scientifically based information that proves that removing a little boy's breasts at birth to prevent possible future breast cancer is a bad idea? No? How come? Maybe because it's ridiculous? Maybe because only common sense is necessary?

Circumcision is ridiculous too!!! And common sense clearly shows that. Think outside the box. Think outside the island. Think outside North America. NOBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET DOES IT AND THEIR PENISES ARE NOT FALLING OFF!!!! THERE'S NO NEED TO REMOVE A HEALTHY BODY PART FROM BABIES AND THERE SHOULD ALSO BE NO NEED TO PROVE WHY NOT!!! Why don't pro-circumcisers focus on proving WHY it should be done? REALLY PROVING why it should be done? Circumcision has no leg to stand on.

Sorry for being so loud, but this is really frustrating. Why is it that people who are doing the sensible thing of not unnecessarily torturing a baby need to prove themselves? Geeezzz.

Oh, and by the way, we're not anti circ. We're PRO INTACT. Pro NORMAL if you will.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.
What is more scientific then a whole board of scientists(AAP) saying to the American public via their policy statement that circ is NOT medically necessary??

Have they drawn that conclusion based on some sort of science?

Quote:

If the AAP doesn't believe circumcision is necessary, why do you need to reinvent the wheel?
Exactly.

In addition to science, there is something called human ethics. The ethics of circ is _just as important as the science._


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~*
What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.

Why do you need scientific studies telling you NOT TO amputate healthy, functioning parts of a newborn? Leaving a boy intact should be the default state. The pro-circ side needs all their (faulty and misleading) studies to try to prove to you to go against common sense and perform the surgery. The pro-intact people on this message board are just trying to get people to listen to their intuition and question why the natural state would need "fixing."


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~*
What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal?

Oh there is _plenty_ of annecdotal pro-circ testimony out there, I hear the old "I know someone who had to get one when they were an adult" line all the time...

Another person even wrote that she only knew one intact man and he was not a very nice person. Apparently that informed her eventual decision!

It is natural for people to pool on personal experience. Neither side of this issue are excluded from that.

Quote:

Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.
Could you give me some examples of facts you wish to dispute?

Quote:

This is confusing.
I know! How could such a developed nation amputate a healthy erogenous zone as part of a *routine!*

To be honest it still baffles me.


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

ConfusedPrincess, I'm afraid the onus is on _you_ to provide evidence of why RIC is so necessary.

Asking for medical/scientific data on the purpose of a foreskin is as unproductive as providing similar data about our fingers and toes or any other normal part of our bodies - unless you're studying anatomy at medical school.

Christopher


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## No2Circ (Aug 10, 2005)

http://oknocirc.blogspot.com/


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robin926*
Why do you need scientific studies telling you NOT TO amputate healthy, functioning parts of a newborn? Leaving a boy intact should be the default state









:


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## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

When I was pregnant I was in the same postion. I had done a little bit of research and this was the best advice I was given....

*If there is even an inch of doubt, don't do it. After giving birth and holding your baby you go through this overwhelming emotional rollercoaster. To make ANY life altering desicion at that point is not a good idea. Just wait a couple of weeks and revisit the issue then. Get to know your baby, establish a relationship and then decide what you feel is best for your family and more importantly your baby.

*


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

ConfusedPrincess, congratulations on your pregnancy!

In your first post, you indicated that everything you had read about infant circumcision was in favor of it. Possibly you stumbled on some pro-circumcision web sites (don't be fooled when a site claims to be "unbiased!") They will tell you that circumcision prevents UTIs, STDs, penile cancer, and zipper injury. They will tell you that the circumised penis is cleaner and more attractive, and that if left intact, your son will be ridiculed by his peers and girlfriends. These are called SCARE TACTICS.

Try to look at this objectively - as if you had never heard of circumcision. You hope and pray for 9 months to deliver a healthy, normal, perfect baby. When you are blessed with such a baby, doesn't it seem bizarre to sign him up for an operation before he even leaves the hospital?

Consider the "medical benefits" of circumcision. Prevents UTIs? Not really. Circumcised males can and do get UTIs.The most current research indicates that intact boys have a slightly higher rate of UTIs in their first year; after that, circumcised males have a higher rate. But put that in perspective - litle girls are FAR more likely to get a UTI than a little boy, regardless of circumcsiion status. Boys already have a low UTI risk! And it can be made even lower by breastfeeding.

Prevents penile cancer? Not really. Circumcised males can and do get penile cancer. But put this into perspective: our sons are more likely to get breast cancer than penile cancer. The American Cancer Society does not list having a foreskin as a risk factor for penile cancer - the primary risk factors are poor hygiene, unprotected sex with multiple partners, and smoking. We can protect our sons against penile cancer by teaching them appropriate behavior.

Prevents STDs? Not really. Circumcised men can and do get STDs, including HIV. The best way to protect against STDs is to practice safe sex. Since babies do not have sex, they do not need to be protected at all! If our sons decide that they do not want to use condoms, they can get themselves circumcised, IF they believe it will protect them against STDs.

I do agree with the poster who asked you to look at this from the opposite angle. Rather than ask "Why shouldn't I cut off my son's foreskin?", perhaps you should ask yourself "Why SHOULD I?"


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~gilli~*
What I am wondering is why the anti-circ information is not more scientifically based, and seems to be purely ancedotal? Or if it does have some science background, it is from an anti-circ website, and you can't crossreference the studies.

This is confusing.

I really don't understand why you think this....Almost all of the "anti-circ" articles that can be found on this thread or on this board for that matter, are from medical journals or statements from medical organizations or at the very least have footnotes which reference where the information comes from(studies, journals ect.) There are very few "ancedotal" references and if there are, they can be easily backed by science.

Here is a great example of the use of footnotes:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html

And another article with great refernces:
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm

This one even has links right in the article that take you to the origional source:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/ Doesn't get much easier than that.

All of these, very reputable, pro genital integrity (anti-circumcision) websites are also easily cross referenced:
http://www.cirp.org/
http://www.circumcision.org/
http://www.infocirc.org/
http://www.courtchallenge.com/

And there is also a ton of information in the "Web Resources" sticky at the top of the forum.

Take care,
Tara


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Also, keep in mind that most people circumcise for very UN-scientific reasons--to look like Dad, so he won't be made fun of in the locker room, because "everybody" does it, etc.

Besides, what other body part is routinely amputated because it might cause problems later? Men are much more likely to have to have their appendix out than to have problems with their foreskins, yet they are not subjected to routine appendectomies 24 hours after birth. Little girls have a one in eight (or is it one in nine?) chance of getting breast cancer, yet their breast buds are not removed after birth, either. Circumcision just seems illogical to me.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.*
I'm wondering if some of these European men she encountered were just erect and she couldn't tell the difference.

GRRR I am soo upset and offended by your comment. Beside the fact that you are accusing me of being some sleazy woman who has seen multiple erect european dicks- *HOW DARE YOU*insult my intelligence for not knowing the difference. It makes me sad that you have to offend and accuse me of such things to feel better about the fact that I'm being curious and questioning why people do or don't do something. Q


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.*
Why give ancedotes? You can give the statements and numbers of these countries to prove your points.

B/c I'm not here to PROVE any points. If you read my replys clearly you would see I was stating my opinion. I don't need to PROVE anything to anyone I just want clear reason why people who are anti-circumcision find the need to (in the real world even) what to do with their own child when there are plenty of men in teh world living just fine on both sides of this argument.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

ConfusedPrincess-- Have you had time to look at the material/links? What's your thoughts on those? The video of the circ was the biggest eye opener for me.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
GRRR I am soo upset and offended by your comment. Beside the fact that you are accusing me of being some sleazy woman who has seen multiple erect european dicks- *HOW DARE YOU*insult my intelligence for not knowing the difference. It makes me sad that you have to offend and accuse me of such things to feel better about the fact that I'm being curious and questioning why people do or don't do something. Q

So, then, where HAVE you seen all these circed, European penises?

And, are you interested in not circing your son? I'm a little confused by your anger and defensiveness.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

If you feel the need to engage in infant genital cutting please don't try to convert us so as to make yourself feel better about it.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Yes, many men are living fine now. But once you hold that new baby in your arms, that innocent, trusting baby who is depending on you to keep it safe, and knowing what you know now, wouldn't you want to keep him the way he was designed? Please, if your baby is a boy, please don't make the same mistakes I did.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lara vanÆsir*
Here's a page which statesn that 80% of the world's men are intact.
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/

]

first I'd liek to thank you for that link I appreciate it. However,not to be rude,all it said was that 80% of the world pop. doesn't practice circumcision that's not the same as saying that 80% of the world's men are intact. I'm also curious as I saw nothing on that page stating how that info. came about...I mean was every man in the world actually consulted for that info.?


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
GRRR I am soo upset and offended by your comment. Beside the fact that you are accusing me of being some sleazy woman who has seen multiple erect european dicks- *HOW DARE YOU*insult my intelligence for not knowing the difference. It makes me sad that you have to offend and accuse me of such things to feel better about the fact that I'm being curious and questioning why people do or don't do something. Q

No one called you sleazy. I'm sorry that you're feeling so defensive. And you don't have to be stupid to not know the difference when you see an intact penis erect. The first intact penis I ever saw, I knew it was intact beforehand, but when I saw him erect, I honestly couldn't tell much of a difference. A lot of men (not all) retract when they are erect, and then the penis looks almost the same (minus the extremely tight skin, keratinized glans, and the scarring of course).


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
first I'd liek to thank you for that link I appreciate it. However,not to be rude,all it said was that 80% of the world pop. doesn't practice circumcision that's not the same as saying that 80% of the world's men are intact. I'm also curious as I saw nothing on that page stating how that info. came about...I mean was every man in the world actually consulted for that info.?


No, but in a country like Germany where docs do not perform circumcisions, how does one become circed? If 80% of the men in the world are not circed doesn't that stand to reason that they are intact?


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys*
No, but in a country like Germany where docs do not perform circumcisions, how does one become circed? If 80% of the men in the world are not circed doesn't that stand to reason that they are intact?









:

If there's no circumcision going on they're intact unless they're doing some sort of DIY *shudder*


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

And, I can't imagine there are HUGE numbers of Eurpoeans engaging in DIY circ.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
We give what we give. Take it or leave it. I just love it when "newbies" (as you are) dictate to us how our information will be presented. You're just lucky we're here in the first place, sister, spending our time because we find it important to do so. You don't listen to us? It's your son who will suffer because of it.

.

Oh my let me bow down to the "veteran queen of this forum"..sorry I'm not worthy of your respect. I hardly would consider it Lucky to have you so sarcastically refer to me as 'lower' than you. New flash: this is a comp. forum not real life -just cos you've posted more than me doesn't make you a better person. And yes I specifically said I wasn't interested in personal opinions b/c everyone has one(hopefully) and I wasn't interested in them..all I have to do is look at another topic on here to read your opinions. So after reading my first post you would've known I was polite enough to ask not for these types of replys. But no you still found the need to come in here and make your self feel so importatn to try to put me down by saying im not aloud to ask that of all of you? The fact that you have the time to disregard my requests and act all high and mighty-I mean come one get over it..If my "newbie" staus and post bothered you so then don't come and reply just leave it alone. LMAO you're hilarious-let me go thank 'god' that I'm so lucky to have you here..


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

Given the amount of information you have been given and your response I get the impression you would circumcise because other people do. The only topic you have addressed is the one concerning percentages of the world that do or do not circumcise. Have you looked at the information about the anatomy of the penis and the function of the foreskin?

And again, why would you cut healthy tissue off a healthy child? Will you be removing any other body parts at birth in order to avoid a very unlikely problem?

The American Academy of Pediatrics says they cannot recommend it, based on all the studies they have gathered. What else do you need??

You give the impression you don't want to be convinced. You give the impression you want to circumcise. This is not a debate board. This is the case *against* circumcision. Take time to read and learn and open your mind.


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## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
Oh my let me bow down to the "veteran queen of this forum"..sorry I'm not worthy of your respect. I hardly would consider it Lucky to have you so sarcastically refer to me as 'lower' than you. New flash: this is a comp. forum not real life -just cos you've posted more than me doesn't make you a better person. And yes I specifically said I wasn't interested in personal opinions b/c everyone has one(hopefully) and I wasn't interested in them..all I have to do is look at another topic on here to read your opinions. So after reading my first post you would've known I was polite enough to ask not for these types of replys. But no you still found the need to come in here and make your self feel so importatn to try to put me down by saying im not aloud to ask that of all of you? The fact that you have the time to disregard my requests and act all high and mighty-I mean come one get over it..If my "newbie" staus and post bothered you so then don't come and reply just leave it alone. LMAO you're hilarious-let me go thank 'god' that I'm so lucky to have you here..

ConfusedPrincess, the attitude and the snark are really not necessary. If you want information about why circ is bad and the intact penis, we are more than happy to help. But there is no reason for the attitude.

And a big







: to everything coloradoalice posted while I was posting my reply.


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
GRRR I am soo upset and offended by your comment. Beside the fact that you are accusing me of being some sleazy woman who has seen multiple erect european dicks- *HOW DARE YOU*insult my intelligence for not knowing the difference. It makes me sad that you have to offend and accuse me of such things to feel better about the fact that I'm being curious and questioning why people do or don't do something. Q

It is VERY hard to tell the difference between intact and mutilated with condom use. My partner now is intact and when we use condoms it feels like sex with every other circ'd guy I've had protected sex with.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys*
And, I can't imagine there are HUGE numbers of Eurpoeans engaging in DIY circ.

Exactly!


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
If you feel the need to engage in infant genital cutting please don't try to convert us so as to make yourself feel better about it.









foirst of all i never stated that i would or wouldnt circumcise my child- i prefer to keep my TRUE feelings private for the time being.So how am i trying to convert aanyone by asking questions and not settling for simple b/c of so and so says, etc. I feel like some of you(assuming in pro circ) are trying to put me down for not converting but I've NEVER tried to make ANYONE on here feel that circ is OK


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
...B/c I'm not here to PROVE any points. If you read my replys clearly you would see I was stating my opinion. I don't need to PROVE anything to anyone ...

You will have to answer to your son. That is all that matters. And seriously, lose the attitude. Nobody was being that rude to you, and you've suddenly gone all crazy.
Anyway, if 80% of the world doesn't chop legs off, it would stand to reason that fewer than 20% of the people were missing their legs, yes?


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

:


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
foirst of all i never stated that i would or wouldnt circumcise my child- i prefer to keep my TRUE feelings private for the time being..

(hint: Nobody who is anti-circ ever flips out at the suggestion that circ is wrong)


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I don't see you replying to the post asking you how feel etc. The only thing you into at the moment is attitude. It is the mothers here, on this board that helped mamas like me see the wrong. It's a cold hard slap in the face, but it's true. The truth hurts, but the pain the baby feels is beyond that if circ'd.


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Have you watched the video?


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

i prefer to keep my TRUE feelings private for the time being
sure, I'll play along.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

It is simply an unnecessary procedure.

And, yes, we should all be loud about it and tell the world.
I've met men who resent that they were circ'd. That alone is enough for me.

You women, and men, are all great, thanks for taking time out of your busy day to help people


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradoalice*

You give the impression you don't want to be convinced. You give the impression you want to circumcise. This is not a debate board. This is the case *against* circumcision. Take time to read and learn and open your mind.

OK look I'm am starting to tear up right now. It bothers me so much how people attack, assume and accuse without knowing where i truly stand and why I want to know this information. I'll admit some of you have gotten specific and asked me to clarify and be more specific. Well I'm sorry i can't do that for you (here come the tears) from the way i feel I've been treated i don't feel comfortable to open to and explain my motives-that would involve giving specific information about my personal life -to understand what I'm here for.
Let me hint at something here: did you all ever in school or from your parents, been asked to give reasoning for something and then they fired back all these contradicting statements and what not-instead of just accepting your answer. Like they made you really prove your point-not cos they didn't personally believe you but b/c they wanted you to be able to deal with other other people's opposing opinions. What I'm trying to say is...maybe I'm trying to push to bring out very convincing points for anti-circ and that's why I'm pushing buttons to get the best answers-not necessarily for myself.

Just trust me I'm not here to debate or even argue I would simply liek some help with an important and serious issue I'm currently dealing with ...maybe if the mood changes around here I can feel open to share my personal struggle with you -I just thought I'd get better info. this way. Just keep in mind that I'm not a bad person, I'm not wanting to upset anyone-I just want to see how you would respond when someone fired back instead of saying "oh ok i see the light now" cos maybe, just maybe I'll be in your shoes having to explain myself in a few months...

I know I'm starting to get off topic and go into a lil oh poor me my life is so hard rant...anyways I know I was giving it back to some of you but I felt really offended that as soon as you *assumed* I was pro-circ you treated me unkind.If anyone has a "warm" reply I could possibly discuss in a private message some of my concerns. I really would like your help since I don't have anyone in my personal life who I could discuss my concerns with. Thanks


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam*
_Sorry Princess. I already know what your TRUE feelings are._

I would appreciate it if you read my previous post.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

assume and accuse without knowing where i truly stand
In a past post you stated that you want to hide your true feelings at the time. Which is fine. Mama, look at all these mamas here that are concerned for your unborn child.


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:

maybe I'm trying to push to bring out very convincing points for anti-circ and that's why I'm pushing buttons to get the best answers
Lots of people have given you links to truths about circ and stats but you are not discussing them. Have you read any of them?


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*

OK look I'm am starting to tear up right now. It bothers me so much how people attack, assume and accuse without knowing where i truly stand and why I want to know this information. I'll admit some of you have gotten specific and asked me to clarify and be more specific. Well I'm sorry i can't do that for you (here come the tears) from the way i feel I've been treated i don't feel comfortable to open to and explain my motives-that would involve giving specific information about my personal life -to understand what I'm here for.
Let me hint at something here: did you all ever in school or from your parents, been asked to give reasoning for something and then they fired back all these contradicting statements and what not-instead of just accepting your answer. Like they made you really prove your point-not cos they didn't personally believe you but b/c they wanted you to be able to deal with other other people's opposing opinions. What I'm trying to say is...maybe I'm trying to push to bring out very convincing points for anti-circ and that's why I'm pushing buttons to get the best answers-not necessarily for myself.

Just trust me I'm not here to debate or even argue I would simply liek some help with an important and serious issue I'm currently dealing with ...maybe if the mood changes around here I can feel open to share my personal struggle with you -I just thought I'd get better info. this way. Just keep in mind that I'm not a bad person, I'm not wanting to upset anyone-I just want to see how you would respond when someone fired back instead of saying "oh ok i see the light now" cos maybe, just maybe I'll be in your shoes having to explain myself in a few months...

I know I'm starting to get off topic and go into a lil oh poor me my life is so hard rant...anyways I know I was giving it back to some of you but I felt really offended that as soon as you *assumed* I was pro-circ you treated me unkind.If anyone has a "warm" reply I could possibly discuss in a private message some of my concerns. I really would like your help since I don't have anyone in my personal life who I could discuss my concerns with. Thanks

Do you not feel that all the links you've been given to articles and videos are sufficient?

Are you concerned that the baby's father will try to make you circumcize your son? He can't do that, you have the final say. You won't have to explain yourself. As has been explained here, there is no reason to chop perfectly healthy tissue off of a newborn baby. If the baby's father thinks there is one, he is wrong. Send him the links, have him watch the video, and tell him that nothing like that will be happening to his son.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

OK look I'm am starting to tear up right now.
I am feeling so manipulated by this person right now. It is pretty upsetting.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

I just want to see how you would respond when someone fired back instead of saying "oh ok i see the light now" cos maybe, just maybe I'll be in your shoes having to explain myself in a few months...
Well, I guess you got what you wanted, right?


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

People can't help you with whatever your specific issue is in relation to this subject without your being forthcoming about what it IS.

All you've done so far is get defensive and mad and claim that people think you're a harlot.









Which is patently ridiculous; I'd say the vast majority of posters here have a very positive attitude about sex in general and wouldn't judge you even if you HAVE had 500 sex partners from every corner of Europe.

Hell, a few of us would be a little jealous.









And yes, gosh, you've gotten a TON of good scientific info. Why won't you discuss THAT? If you're not interested in "subjective opinions," you're going to have to dig in and do some reading.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*

OK look I'm am starting to tear up right now. It bothers me so much how people attack, assume and accuse without knowing where i truly stand and why I want to know this information. I'll admit some of you have gotten specific and asked me to clarify and be more specific. Well I'm sorry i can't do that for you (here come the tears) from the way i feel I've been treated i don't feel comfortable to open to and explain my motives-that would involve giving specific information about my personal life -to understand what I'm here for.
Let me hint at something here: did you all ever in school or from your parents, been asked to give reasoning for something and then they fired back all these contradicting statements and what not-instead of just accepting your answer. Like they made you really prove your point-not cos they didn't personally believe you but b/c they wanted you to be able to deal with other other people's opposing opinions. What I'm trying to say is...maybe I'm trying to push to bring out very convincing points for anti-circ and that's why I'm pushing buttons to get the best answers-not necessarily for myself.

Just trust me I'm not here to debate or even argue I would simply liek some help with an important and serious issue I'm currently dealing with ...maybe if the mood changes around here I can feel open to share my personal struggle with you -I just thought I'd get better info. this way. Just keep in mind that I'm not a bad person, I'm not wanting to upset anyone-I just want to see how you would respond when someone fired back instead of saying "oh ok i see the light now" cos maybe, just maybe I'll be in your shoes having to explain myself in a few months...

I know I'm starting to get off topic and go into a lil oh poor me my life is so hard rant...anyways I know I was giving it back to some of you but I felt really offended that as soon as you *assumed* I was pro-circ you treated me unkind.If anyone has a "warm" reply I could possibly discuss in a private message some of my concerns. I really would like your help since I don't have anyone in my personal life who I could discuss my concerns with. Thanks

Sorry if we upset you.

What exactly is it that you want from us? I am sure that we will do our best to provide it.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
.....
Just trust me I'm not here to debate or even argue I would simply liek some help with an important and serious issue I'm currently dealing with ...maybe if the mood changes around here I can feel open to share my personal struggle with you -I just thought I'd get better info. this way. Just keep in mind that I'm not a bad person, I'm not wanting to upset anyone-I just want to see how you would respond when someone fired back instead of saying "oh ok i see the light now" cos maybe, just maybe I'll be in your shoes having to explain myself in a few months.....

Can I guess here that you are dealing with either you baby's father, or your parents, who are pressuring you to circ?
You want resources, not opinions, to convince somebody?
What are the arguments they have? If they have specific reasons we can address those. But trying to guess what info you need is like shooting in the dark.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Oh, and please, Confused Princess, MOST of us here have been in the position of people trying to "fire back" against solid anti-circ info.

Not even just online, but in the "real" world, too.

It's always futile on their part, mostly because circumcision isn't a practice rooted in logical thinking or medical necessity-- it's a cultural/tribal/religious practice, and once you reject the notion that a kid's genitals can be marked for the sake of "culture," you've pretty much pulled the rug out from under the whole charade.

Everything else is just an excuse.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Please give us examples of specific questions you feel you might need to react to in the future. You do not need to tell us all your personal info, but we need more specific questions, otherwise we can do little except guess a motives and answer according to what we each see as the most relevant points to US.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

I guess it was a mistake for me to post here...I've been given some interesting, detailed and informative information . While I think it's wonderful all of you stand so strongly behind your opinion/belief







-at the same time it means you are so against acknowledging any sort of truth to any bit of info from the other side of it.and that's totally fine I guess I'll just have to do the best i can and see what happens. Thank you to those of you who were kind and did not pass jusdgement. Also thank you for all the links. I'm sorry for upsetting anyone who thought they knew me. Love and joy goes out to all of you -maybe i'll get to chat with some of you later on. Once again sorry to confuse you all with my posts







:


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
-at the same time it means you are so against acknowledging any sort of truth to any bit of info from the other side of it.

What truth would that be?


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm out. She has all the information folks. She has everything she needs. She's defensive and she won't explain herself and she has made it clear that she isn't going to any time soon.

Princess, please read what has been posted and take some time to think things through. When you have specific questions that we can specifically answer I think this will go a lot better.

In the mean time I am moving on.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

-at the same time it means you are so against acknowledging any sort of truth to any bit of info from the other side of it.
If you'd quit being so vague and tell us what "truths" you're talking about, maybe there could be a productive discussion.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
-at the same time it means you are so against acknowledging any sort of truth to any bit of info from the other side of it.

What kind of truth? Once again, we need specifics if we are to do more than speculate about which "facts" we need to dispute. You have, thus far, cited no concrete info of your own. i like too argue as much as the next guy, but you have not adressed any of the science you are so adament about.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
I guess it was a mistake for me to post here...I've been given some interesting, detailed and informative information . While I think it's wonderful all of you stand so strongly behind your opinion/belief







-at the same time it means you are so against acknowledging any sort of truth to any bit of info from the other side of it.and that's totally fine I guess I'll just have to do the best i can and see what happens. Thank you to those of you who were kind and did not pass jusdgement. Also thank you for all the links. I'm sorry for upsetting anyone who thought they knew me. Love and joy goes out to all of you -maybe i'll get to chat with some of you later on. Once again sorry to confuse you all with my posts







:

If you're out to use the Socratic method on us, as you kind of describe your teachers at school doing, you are going to have to use some very specific lines of questioning and intellectual probing.

Which you have, so far, not done.

All you've done is get mad and defensive and teary-- that's not at all a way of refining your line of thinking on anything. Or ours.

And it sure as heck isn't going to protect your baby.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

I'm out.


----------



## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

CP said:

Quote:

Once again sorry to confuse you all with my posts

I wasn't confused by your posts at all.







:
They were all pretty clear.

Love and joy to you too!


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Surely you can understand that, by coming here and acting the part of some mystery person in your own life who is advocating circumcision, you had us all convinced that that was YOU? This IS a computer, not real life, as you pointed out. You may have been trying to get information to use in your arguments, but how could we know that? It's not so hard to say: "my husband/family/friends think circumcision is a good thing, for these reasons. Are they right? How can I refute their arguments?"

We have mamas come here all the time with that exact post. You don't have to tell your name, their names, or where you live. It's as anonymous as it gets, and we are here to help. but you have to shoot straight so we can do that. Please?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I believe more than one person addressed the pro-circ "truths" and why they don't hold up. The foreskin being a natural and functioning part of the male body isn't opinion it is fact.


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

Oh honey, I am so sorry that you're confused... I know becoming a parent is a wonderfully scary thing...

Here's my 2 cents...

It seems like your really unsure of whether or not to circ, right? Personally, I chose to leave my DS intact, for various reason. I had to explain my decision more often than not, but regardless... it is a procedure that DS can choose to have when he is older, but I decided not to take away that choice from him.

There are no medical benefits to circ'ing. None.

If your unsure at all about whether you want to circ... DON'T DO IT! It can always be done later. But don't make an irreversible decsion without being 100% positive that it what you want to do.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I hope that the info provided here in the links will keep you thinking. I wish you could tell us tho exactly what you meant by the other truths. If we knew them we could address the specifically. There are so many myths out there about the intact penis that are thought of as truths but they just are not. So many mom's have posted in the sticky if you regret circing your son. Maybe read there and get more of a perspective? I wish I did know you irl so that we could sit down and go over things so that we could get down to the crust of the problem.

Please for the sake of your son don't give up on the truth read, read and then read some more. Remember that if you are doubting circ there is a reason for it you know in your heart the right answer.

Remember to that your son is the one that will have to deal with the consequences of circ and all the things that can and do go wrong. I will include here a link to some of the complication pictures of circ so that you can see that they are very common some of them are not considered major but still they shouldn't have happened at all.

Warning pictures of Male Genitals"
Link
Link
Link
LinkThis picture is especially unpleasant
Link

I don't show you these to try to scare you but these are the facts of circ.

My dh asked me the other day why it was so important to me. My answer was because little boys are suffering every day because of myths and irresponsible dr's who still do this procedure even tho they know that it is not medically needed. So many people know about the other issues that affect children. So many people advocate for other important things like breastfeeding and stopping child abuse. But not many here in the USA think about circ as a issue at all. It is just what is done and has been done for so long. Someone has to stand up and let others know the damage and injustice these little babies go thru. How anyone could inflict pain upon a helpless newborn without having a valid medical reason is beyond me. Think how you would feel coming out all fresh and new never having known pain and then all the sudden you are strapped down to a board and someone starts cutting on you. Babies have been proven to feel pain more acutely than a grown person because there nerves are so new and haven't had pain before.

Many men here in the USA suffer from circ but have no idea that is what the issue is. On avg a circed man will experience ED 10yrs sooner than his intact counterpart. Woman suffer because they think there painfully vaginal dryness during sex is because of them when in fact it circ is to blame.

No one in my family supported my decision not to circ not even my dh but my responsibility is to the health and well being of my child. If it bothers them, tough I don't owe them anything. Harsh yes but I would die for my kids and I will protect them with the last breath in my body.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Gonna have to agree with kdliam on this one. But anyway, threads like this only help our cause. I have never seen such a nasty tone on MDC as I did in one of the OP's posts.

Circumcise your baby - maybe you have given him a slightly lower risk of UTIs, but you could have fixed this with simple antibiotics. Maybe you'll decrease the chance he will get AIDS - but it hasn't worked for all the circ'ed men in this country. He should be using condoms anyway. Make his penis look like the ones you are used to - except that neither you nor no one your age will be sleeping with him, and this generation is growing up half circ'ed and half intact - I don't think "normalcy" will be a problem. And when you circ him for all these benefits, you'll also decrease his sexual sensitivity, cause him tremendous pain, and risk penile amputation and death. You'd be disgusted by female circumcision, so try to stretch your imagination and see that male circumcision is no different, except that you are used to it.

Now I'm done wasting my breath.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robin926*
No one called you sleazy. I'm sorry that you're feeling so defensive. And you don't have to be stupid to not know the difference when you see an intact penis erect. The first intact penis I ever saw, I knew it was intact beforehand, but when I saw him erect, I honestly couldn't tell much of a difference. A lot of men (not all) retract when they are erect, and then the penis looks almost the same (minus the extremely tight skin, keratinized glans, and the scarring of course).

I had seen two circumcised baby penises (my brothers') and couldn't tell if my ex-bf was circumcised or not (he wasn't). I spent HOURS online in high school trying to figure out if he was or not and what an intact penis looks like







On a school computer no less







It's certainly not unusual to not be able to tell if one has only seen circumcised penises...

love and peace.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Here's one medical thing which cements my knowledge that circumcision is unnecessary and harmful:

A circumcised boy has a HIGHER rate of complications and problems than an intact (not circumcised) boy. That's right - a boy whose natural penis was left alone has a lower risk of having something go wrong than a circumcised boy. I know it probably sounds foreign to you, because the information given by society and doctors in the US is so WRONG, but please consider everything said in this thread fully before subjecting your son to a painful, useless procedure which he can't give consent for. Ethically, medically, sexually, circumcision is BAD.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Congrats on your little one on the way








and here's to hoping for a little girl......


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ConfusedPrincess*
I mean was every man in the world actually consulted for that info.?

Why yes, exactly. Some dude went door to door with a notebook and a pen and asked every man in the entire world to drop his drawers so he could check whether they were intact.































Sorry, couldn't resist.









~Nay


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

What absolutely makes me angry - yes, angry, is the *demand* to somehow prove how many men in the world are intact + the OP's claim that Europe circumcises. Shows how deep the practise of circumcision is sunken to American minds.

It seems to impossible for OP to understand that for the most part of the world circumcision is similar non-issue than FGM. People do not think about it, many do not even know about it, medical community regards it as bad as FGM....I know you still lurk there so coul you please at least send me PM and let me know from where these circumcised men are coming and how did you find out that they are circumcised.

Unless all the European men you met were jewish/muslim/OLD british royalty(Princess Diana stopped that practise, her sons are intact)you claim is as ridiculous as me claiming that FGM is practised in USA.


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