# I "don't let" my child hit me/swear/act rudely, etc.



## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

How do you all "not let" your kid do something!? I don't get it! I've heard some say "we enforce our rule of not hitting in the house" or "we don't allow name-calling in our family" ... how does it really work?

My dd is 5.5, I have talked about her outrageous tantrums before - she swears, hits and kicks at me & her dad daily, calls us names and generally disrespects us. She shrugs her shoulders and rolls her eyes when we ask if she wants to hurt others, when we say "in our family we don't hit", or whatever. We talk about each episode when we are calm. She says she doesn't care how others feel, she doesn't mind if she hurts them, she says it is funny to her. I have tried to make her practice saying "I am upset", or "I feel like hitting", or just to say something (i realize often she can't identify or articulate her feelings) instead of abusing us - she won't practice and says the whole idea is "stupid". She just refuses to try to express herself in words. Actually she told me it scared her to do that, and actually was shaking the few times she has practiced saying "I'm angry".

When she engages in the aggressive behaviors I have tried giving her love - she rejects it and hits more and/or runs away. We have also tried having her spend a minute in the room alone, where she slams & kicks the door repeatedly. Or we walk away, but she often follows us running and screaming and hitting us. We have asked her to come back to us when she can be gentle and talk normally, but she doesn't, she comes back and is as snotty and rude as when she went away from us. And this is after maybe 20 minutes by herself, during which time she is sulking. We would be spending all day in combat if it went on like that. As for "having a talk" it is usually me trying to talk to the back of her head. I ask for her input on how she could change her responses, or what consequences she thinks are fair for certain things -- her rote answer to everything is "i dunno."

Typical scenario: today I said she could not ride on my shoulders, my back is killing me and, after begging me and pulling on my arm (which also hurt me) for 5 minutes, after I said "I would love to, but my back hurts, I am not just trying to deny you something for no reason - maybe you could be gentle with me!" she blew up: screamed "you are stupid", ran up to me, and hit me hard. I held her hands and said "we do not hit in our family" and walked away from her. We were on the street. She kept chasing and hitting me. Now what am I supposed to do? Lock her in the room when we get home? Not talk to her for an hour? I mean how can I "not let" her do this behavior? Just talking, reasoning and appealing to her fine sense of humanity is NOT working for us.

Should a 5.5 year old feel compassion/moral understanding yet?

I just feel so lost with this. How do you gently discipline" violent behavior? Are there "logical or natural consequences" to it? What if the logical consequences don't seem to faze her? This behavior has not improved for over a YEAR. I am losing my mind and the family is feeling very sour because of her behavior.

I am sorry if this is incoherent by now; thanks if you have read thus far. Practical step-by-step advice would be really helpful!!!!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow. We too are dealing with some violent behaviours with our son, who is the same age as your daughter. So I am really hoping from some words of wisdom from the more experienced GD mommies here.

I have found that I cannot deal with his hitting me or younger sister. Right now when he starts tantruming that badly he goes to his room. Mostly he will go there when led by the hand, a couple of times I have literally carried him up the stairs and dumped him on his bed. I don't care if he totally trashes his room, slams the door, or hits things -- that I totally ignore. If he comes out before he is calm, he goes back one way or the other. I can't let him him me or other children or I will hit back. Its just not in me to take that sort of abuse -- perhaps because I had to for years at the hands of my father. Luckily for me he does not generally do this in public.

I finally decided that one of my core values that I want my children to learn is that you don't have to be a victim. If I take his physical abuse, then I am training him and, perhaps more disturbingly, my DD that you have to take abuse from other people. Therefore, I do whatever I have to to protect myself first, short of hurting him. If he's being mild, then I walk away and refuse to deal with him until he is calm, gentle and polite. If its really bad, then I confine him so he can't hurt anyone.

I have been trying to coach more acceptable behaviours before things escalate. When I know something is coming, and I have pretty much IDed his triggers, then I will ask him to take deep breaths, to talk about how he feels, to walk away before he gets too frustrated. So far this is of limited success. But one of the things that I think I have finally accepted about a gentle approach is that change takes time, sometimes a lot of it. My DH and I are also working really hard at modeling appropriate ways to express anger and frustration, which includes not yelling at the kids when we are angry and frustrated. This is really, really hard right now.

I do believe that a 5 YO should be capable of self control, of compassion and understanding why we don't hurt others. I'm not sure how to get from here to there, but I do believe it is a reasonable goal. I'm hanging on the best I know how until we get there.

And I would love to hear advise from others!


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

to you mama. I don't really have any advice for you ...I hope the bright mamas here can offer you some answers...


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

I'm trying to figure out how to word this without sounding judgemental....

Is it possible that she's imitating you/your dh when _you/he_ get angry/argue? If so, she's getting the message that acting that way is okay, even though you're saying that it isn't, and you won't be able to get her to stop until you do.

In any case, I don't think it's normal for a 5.5yo to act the way she's acting. Is/was there some trauma in her life that could be affecting her?

Just so you know, she sounds a lot like me when I was a kid...and I was being severely emotionally abused by my parents (mostly my mother). I'm not implying that you're abusive to her, just saying that (IMO) 5.5yo kids don't come up with all that by themselves. Were you/dh abused as a child? Has she seen violent movies/TV? (Even G-rated Disney movies have violence/scary bit in them.)

I'd strongly suggest family counseling before she gets much older. ...and be as picky as you can be about any therapist/counselor/social worker you see. If any of you consistently leave the persons office feeling bad about yourself, find someone else who can deal with your situation compassionately. (BTDT, and thankfully my Dh didn't like her and wouldn't let me ignore what she was doing to me/us.)

Best of luck.














You are all in a tough situation.


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## MizLiz (Jan 23, 2005)

Wow mamas, this must be hard to deal with, especially when you sound so patient and kind to your children... I have had to deal with way over the top outbursts from my ds when he was younger but he didn't really go after me physically in such a relentless way...

I do know one mother who has a similar problem with her ds going after her when he is mad (he also goes after other people, too). When he starts this she picks him up, puts her arms around him and tells him that she isn't putting him down until she can trust that he isn't going to hurt anyone. She doesn't say too much to him during this time other than "I know you're angry, that's okay". And she keeps him there until he stops. If he doesn't then she just picks him up again until he won't go after her/other people anymore. I like this for a couple of reasons: she isn't running away from him makking herself a "vicitm" as one pp mentioned and she is still there for him to help him regain his composure and I find he seems to calm down quicker than he did when he used to be sent to his room or other techniques that she has tried with him.

Hope this helps and good luck.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

E&A's Mom, thank golly you chimed in, I am so glad there's another one in a similar situation!!! (I mean just because I don't feel so alone - I am sorry you are going through it too!) Now i hope we get some mamas who are PAST this obstacle!!!

pjlioness, certainly dd has learned to rage from her father, who does it often -- we have been fighting a lot, and often in front of the kids -- there is no hitting or anything but it is definitely unhealthy and goes in waves. Until ds was born last October I was the picture of patience and gentleness with dd, but I am not so proud of myself lately. There has been a lot of huge changes in dd's life in the past year (move across ocean from nice town to big city, cramped housing situation, new baby brother, still no good friends her age after 14 months here, to name a few). But while I recognize this is all coming from a deeper place which is slow in healing, we still need to stop the behavior or at least work on saying feelings, even though things may not be perfect. Plenty of kids have problems and DON'T do this. kwim? That's why I want to hear what works for others. Generally dd is a really sweet and insightful child and we have a very attached relationship on which others have commented with admiration. It's true that her behavior ebbs and flows with the state of the marriage but I am trying desperately to find some consistent and effective reaction and treatment for this behavior.

DH will not go to counseling, I would consider it alone with dd, but I don't want her to feel like a "case".

I wish I could hold dd like that but she's really strong and plus I'm often nursing.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, sphinx, you really have your hands full. It sounds awful for you.









I don't have any experience with this level of behaviour. But I have to agree that it doesn't sound within the range of "normal", and I don't mean that your child has some kind of psychological problem...I mean that she has an *issue* somewhere that isn't being resolved. And from the sounds of it, it's not from your lack of trying.

My first thought reading your post is that your child is not communicating. She may be talking, but her "I don't care" words and body language that you describe tells me there is a block here. She cannot "hear" you and cannot respond. I wanted to suggest Active Listening, which is a communication technique. You can read about it in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen..." by Faber and Mazlish, and also "Parent Effectiveness Training" by Thomas Gordon. Maybe, just maybe, you can peice out what is going on in that head of hers.

The other suggestion is food issues. Many people assume food reactions must be physical: breaking out in hives, problems breathing, etc...but they can also be behavioural. Your DD seems to have a lot of negative energy in her. Have you considered eliminating some foods? Dairy and/or sugar are common source (my BF's son had this problem as a child whenever he ate refined sugars).

Anyways, I hope you find some help. This must be very distressing for you. And your poor DD as well.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
pjlioness, certainly dd has learned to rage from her father, who does it often -- we have been fighting a lot, and often in front of the kids -- there is no hitting or anything but it is definitely unhealthy and goes in waves. Until ds was born last October I was the picture of patience and gentleness with dd, but I am not so proud of myself lately. There has been a lot of huge changes in dd's life in the past year (move across ocean from nice town to big city, cramped housing situation, new baby brother, still no good friends her age after 14 months here, to name a few). But while I recognize this is all coming from a deeper place which is slow in healing, we still need to stop the behavior or at least work on saying feelings, even though things may not be perfect. Plenty of kids have problems and DON'T do this. kwim?

True, there are kids who don't do this, but honestly, it's my theory (in the world according to ME







) that children who are "allowed" to express thier feelings-will. Obviously she is VERY angry at you. She is showing her anger in a very violent way (which you're right, is NOT ok) BUT the good part of all that (again, JMO) is that she trusts you enough to show you her emotions. She knows that she can trust you to love her through this.
That being said, of course the violence needs to stop. Therapy might be really great (with a great therapist). She won't "feel like a case." A therapist can be really helpful in teaching her to recognize her emotions, talk about them, and help her learn new ways to express herself. Even though you may have ideas how to do that, judging from the "rolling her eyes" etc...I doubt any kind of suggestions you offer will be welcomed by DD. KWIM?
My son had some anger issues back in the fall. He was really, really lashing out- I sent him to the school therapist ( I work at the school, and know her really well, and trusted her approach). She was able to work with him in a way I could not. She offered suggestions that he and I could work on together and it's been wonderful.
Hugs to you Mama.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
But I have to agree that it doesn't sound within the range of "normal", and I don't mean that your child has some kind of psychological problem...I mean that she has an *issue* somewhere that isn't being resolved.

I feel stupid asking this, but can you clarify the difference? "Issues" are psychological, aren't they? Or do you mean it could have been one or two salient situations she is trying to resolve?

Thanks all for your support & advice. I have tried to apply ideas from How to Talk and Playful Parenting and they have both been really helpful. But nothing has really gotten to the nuts & bolts of it. Maybe in part I haven't been focused enough on following through.

Refined sugar definitely does a number on dd and she did have a piece of chocolate before tonight's major meltdown. Other than that I don't think it's food, because the behavior became more intense in tandem with our move, and we haven't changed our (quite healthy) diet in any significant way. As for the TV/movies, we don't have a TV and she's seen maybe 6 movies in her whole life, so I don't think it's coming from there.

thanks again everybody. I deeply appreciate this support right now.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
She knows that she can trust you to love her through this.

Yes, theoretically i agree with this, but practically speaking it is very scary for me when it feels like everything is just completely out of control. Also it doesn't help that dh wants to lay down a firm hand and complains all day how "my way" isn't working, that she is a "spoiled brat" - dh seems to be more concerned with forcing dd to speak to us "with respect" than helping her resolve her problems & meeting her needs. He really takes dd's words personally and sometimes even says he thinks she needs a smack. (but he knows i won't stand for it so he'd never do it.) He knows it's not really the answer but he has absolutely NO patiences and feels at a total loss, as I do. We live in his native culture that believes strongly in controlling children -- repressing kids' feelings is what parents are supposed to do. The idea of respecting children and allowing them to vent their emotions is completely unfathomable here. So I fear I won't find a good therapist, because even the most alternative moms I know think it's ok to hit sometimes, and I don't hear anything about concepts like positive parenting.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Even though you may have ideas how to do that, judging from the "rolling her eyes" etc...I doubt any kind of suggestions you offer will be welcomed by DD. KWIM?

I think you are right; I have one friend whom my dd really loves; she has often been effective in diffusing dd's anger when I cannot.

just an afterthought - isn't it possible that getting a therapist could add to the idea of her parents as weak/victim or impotent in dd's eyes?


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

i really feel for you (and your dd). your situation sounds terrible.

about therapy. you truly may have to screen several therapists to find a good fit for you and your dd. you won't know until you try, but you should be prepared to try some out and see if they fit.

i would definitely go to counseling with or without your dh. i do not think it would make your dd see anyone more as 'vicitims'. i think that a really good therapist could help immeasurably. to be honest, i think it could really *help* your dd to deal with your dh's rages, too (help you, as well). you do not deserve poor treatment from *anyone* in your family.

i wish you success and peace. i am sorry i have no words of wisdom for you.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Just want to follow up on the hidden allergies issue, simply because it has been a big factor in our family. I know you say you eat healthy but some of the common triggers can be foods that are not commonly thought of as "unhealthy," for example soy are dairy are two of the most common allergens. My son had a huge behavior change when we removed dairy from his diet. It took a full week to see the difference, but once it was out of his system, the change was profound. Just something to consider.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
Or do you mean it could have been one or two salient situations she is trying to resolve?











nak...


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Hugs for you! I am one of the posters who said something along the lines of "we just tell our daughter in our family we don't hit..." and etc, so my kid is like this - she is very sensitive and has always been very responsive to talking and our requests. I really think part is AP parenting, and part is innate nature. I used to totally believe in nurture over nature, but now I'm really not sure. I think a lot of personality and response is inborn, and there are things you can do to help mitigate issues, but you don't need to beat up or blame yourself for how you've parented and made a child "this way," as I've seen some poeple do to themselves.

That said, we have had friends whose children sound more closely aligned with yours. They are all very bright, creative kids who we enjoy being around, but who definitely give their parents a bit more of a challenge, and who tend to not respond in the way most parenting books say children "should" respond using GD/AP methods. These are things my friends have done and talked about:
*Using AP/GD books designed for the "high-need" or "spirited" child - there are specifically books by William Sears, Becky Bailey, and Mary Sheedy Kurcinka on the topic. There are others too, by Dobson, but I would avoid those like the plague. Sears had one child who was high-need.
*Their children were tested for behavioral and emotional challenges, to find out exactly where the challenges lie. It doesn't mean that the child needs to end up labelled in a bad way - it's sort of like, what if you had a stomachache all the time, if you found out what was causing it, you could find out how to resolve it - including behavioral, dietary, or environmental modifications. You don't need to feel embarrassed about the stomachache or be ashamed that you've got one. Better to learn now, than later if there are any issues. I had one friend whose daughter would throw really difficult tantrums and was absolutely non responsive, and even quit talking. The mom later found out (age three) that she was on the PDD spectrum. Behavioral therapy helped her a lot, along with dietary changes.
*There are workshops for parents to attend together on parenting challenges and approaches.
*Being consistent and creating routines has also helped many of them, but they do it in a very AP way that ends up being rather calming.
*Take risks and think outside the box regarding discipline techniques
*Finding a school that really sees the child as an individual (alternative schools) or homeschooling, in order to decrease the conflict that sometimes happens when a unique kid goes into a cookie-cutter situation where they're expected to sit still, listen and fill out the worksheet just-so. 'Cos chances are slim that they're gonna feel like doing it...

Good luck. I hope you can find a harmonious way that will lead to a great lifelong relationship between the the members of your family.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
just an afterthought - isn't it possible that getting a therapist could add to the idea of her parents as weak/victim or impotent in dd's eyes?

Just want to add - I don't think this is the case. It does show children that when you need help, you know where to find it. If you need gall bladder surgery, you go to the surgeon. If your car is broken, you can take it to the mechanic to get it looked at. Some resourceful parents bring their kids into me (I'm a librarian) and help them learn to ask their questions (how do I find the spider books?) so I can help them help themselves. I think a therapist or child psychologist (who would be able to help with diagnostic issues) works along the same lines - they're a specialist and have seen others in your shoes, and has seen possible causes and solutions. You could be completely self-reliant, but that's a hard place to be, often, when so many resources are around.

One other thought - some AP authors do phone counseling. Jan Hunt does, for example. If you see someone whose books you like a lot (Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, for example), you might see if they will do phone work with you on a short part-time basis.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

My ds is less than two, so I don't know about five year olds yet, but just from reading, I was really struck by the obviousness of your dd's behavior. After you explained that your dh gets angry and you both fight in front of the kids and that she's had to deal with major changes in her life, I would be surprised if she didn't act the way she did. At least she's verbal and not hiding it in a deep, unknown place.

If the adults in the house can't control their emotions, then how do you expect a 5.5 yo to be able to?

I'm sorry if I sound judgemental. I'm sure you and your dh are lovely people. But I just think that change has to happen from the parents down. I don't buy the logic of do as I say, not as I do. Right now I think this post is directed at the wrong party. Good luck sorting this out. As I said, I don't have a five yo, so excuse my ignorance.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
just an afterthought - isn't it possible that getting a therapist could add to the idea of her parents as weak/victim or impotent in dd's eyes?

That sounds like your own fear and insecurity. Kids don't have the context we do about what "therapy" is...they just think they get to go talk to someone cool.


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
DH will not go to counseling, I would consider it alone with dd, but I don't want her to feel like a "case".

Maybe you could just tell her that you are concerned because you and she are having trouble communicating and that the therapist/counselor is going to help with that. It could help both of you deal better with your husband's rage, even if he's not attending.

I can relate on the rage/yelling/fighting. In my family, I'm the one with the rage/temper.







We've fought in front of the kids too, and it's starting to affect ds#1 so much that I'm really trying hard to not do it anymore. With my background, it isn't easy.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

I only have a minute so forgive my frankness and please don't confuse it for judgement or being mean, just some insights I have as a behavior analyst:

1) Stop fighting in front of your children--this causes them anxiety...anxiety leads to fear...fear leads to anger...
2) Stop fighting where your children can hear you but not see you--see above
3) Be consistent. If staying up to 10pm isn't going to be okay tomorrow it isn't okay today. If it is okay today to have cookies at 5pm then it should be okay tomorrow too. This doesn't mean forever. You are in crisis now and have to get the anxiety level down in your dd. If yelling is not okay, ignore anything that she yells, whisper that when she can speak in an appropriate voice tone you'll be happy to address her needs, then be silent (if you have to leave the room to do this then do so)--inconsistentcy breeds chaos which breeds anxiety and on to anger. By not reinforcing the inappropriate behavior with attention (responding to the yelling), offering her a solution (speaking in an appropriate voice tone), and then allowing her the time and space to get there without interfereing you can avoid a power struggle.
3) Set up a predictable schedule, follow it consistently, inform your dc about any changes or upcoming events well ahead of time with daily reminders. A family meeting first thing in the AM to go over the days events or something less formal like while you are helping DD with dressing/batheing/breakfast--not knowing what is going to happen from minute to minute/hour to hour/day to day causes anxiety which...
4) Give DD choices with limits i.e. do you want to wear this or this, do you want to go to the park or to the store. By controlling the number of choices you retain some "power" and for some children knowing that the adult is in charge and going to handle things is comforting while the independence of the choice doesn't make it a control issue.
5) Reward EVERY positive things she does with a smile, a pleasant acknowledgement (this can be praise or not depending on what you prefer and what you notice works), making statements about enjoying being with her etc. Children want to be liked by their parents not just loved. If she can get attention for "being good" she won't need to act out as often to feel that intense level of attention.

To me all of her behavios sound like typical responses from a child with high anxiety. It sounds like the source of her anxiety is the chaos in her life (I know it may not seem chaotic to you but you have all the real power i.e. ability to move to another place, go places within your community, make plans, begin/end arguments with dh, choose what is served for dinnner etc) and the best way to eliminate that chaos for her is for you to be consistent from how your time is spent, how you communicate, what your expectations are. She needs you to be the mama. She wants that from you. But she is going to fight that at first to see if you mean it. She will push the boundaries you've set up to see if they will break. Not breaking sends her the message that you have things under control and that you aren't expecting her at 5 to make the big decisions.

I strongly recommend you see a counselor. With or without DH and DD. If you are in the states you will have a hard time finding a counselor who will allow you to remain "in session" with DD. (Don't get me started on that). But if you go see a child counselor to get advice and parenting recommendations that could really help you to feel more confident and competent.

I also would recommend you do a google search on "Attachment Disorder" (I know you are probably saying, but we are well attached and that could very well be however your DD's behavior RIGHT NOW is saying that needs some help because she is anxious about her role as a child in your family.) I am also not saying that your DD HAS attachment disorder but I do think some of the things useful in dealing with that can be useful in reattaching a troubled relationship.

From attach.org
"Negative attachment cycle" in family

1. Child engages in negative behaviors which can't be ignored

2. Parent reacts with strong emotion, creating intense but unsatisfying connection

3. Both parent and child distance and connection is severed

Okay, I have to go to sleep now. I hope I was of some help. I'm sorry you are going through this. I AM sure that you are doing the best you can for your family. Moving is the most stressful experience. Add to that not "plugging into" a new community of friends and the stress sky rockets.







for you and DD

Jenne


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thanks for some of the really constructive analysis and advice. I am doing many, many of those things Jenne and loraeileen (? can't see your name) suggested already (consistency, encouragement & praise, etc) but it is definitely the fighting/tension in the house that keeps her anxious. The problem is DH rages and I don't want to just be silent because 1) often it has to do with clashing discipline techniques and attitudes, and it's a matter of immediate importance to me - defending dd from his scathing words or rough reactions to normal behavior; 2) I don't want my dd to see me being verbally abused without defending myself, if that makes sense. I try to defuse, but DH keeps ranting. And then I too blow up and we are both insensitive and mean to each other. Or I take dd someplace calm and she gets the picture that daddy is the "bad guy", when in actuality we have woven a very complex web and we are both at fault.

Yes, I am very aware that change has to be within the nucleus of the family (the marriage). I am also not surprised so much as overwhelmed by dd's behavior. But I AM tired of the battle, and even though things are improving with DH, dd's behavior doesn't seem to budge much and so I am just trying to learn some measures that have been effective for others. Of course I want a magic easy answer but I know there isn't one. Still, I was hoping...

I'm not in the States and I definitely believe it will be an uphill battle finding a normal therapist who believes in the rights of children.

Gotta go make breakfast.


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## vivalamama (Jan 22, 2005)

Sphinx~
I wish I had some great ideas for a quick fix... it sounds like you are doing absolutely everything you can think of and are a caring and dedicated mama. It must be exhausting to deal with the fear and anger of some of the behaviors your dd is displaying and the arguments with your dh. Given that you're not in the u.s. I don't know how it might work, but there are online therapists. There may or may not be appropriate child/family therapists in your area, but regardless, you and your family deserve support! One resource I've heard good things about is www.metanoia.org and it has a bunch of info on internet therapists, how to find a good one, a bit about the process, etc. Obviously, this would be mostly for you, as dd is too young, and dh sounds like he is not into the idea, but what you learn can have a ripple effect on your whole family.
Also, not sure if another poster has suggestedthis, but your dd has gone through a bunch of changes... has she been given an outlet to express/talk about/mourn the losses and differences. I'm thinking letters to old friends, drawing pictures, discussions about pros and cons of being a big sis, memory books-- just a thought.
good luck to you and your family!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think you may need alot more than this but I did want to make one suggestion for a book.

It's called "The Secret of Parenting". It's about discipline without punishment or yelling or threats.

Why would this be of help to you?

Well, its sub-title is *"How to be in charge of kids today."* Would THAT appeal to DH?

Many DH's who believe in strong in charge parenting believe it can only be done thru yelling and hitting.

I suggest this because my best friend's dh was like this. She read the book to him at first. But its funny so he started reading on his own. He ended up really liking it. He told her it made him feel MORE in control than yelling.

It is NOT AP. It does not beleive that children should be treated like adults. But for many AP mama's it presents a method that they can more than live with coming from their dh's and restores a more happy less tense household.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

To a small child, everything she's going through right now must be overwhelming. Big hugs to you and to her. I personally agree that counselling is the course of action I'd choose.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I agree with a lot of what has been posted so far. My son also has those types of rages sometimes, although his anxiety is related to his extreme perfectionism rather than anything amiss in his life. Here are some things I say that seem to help defuse things:

(While he is raging) "Yes, I understand you're mad at me/your sister/your game/whatever. That's fine. It's normal to get angry." "It's okay to be mad, but treating me badly isn't going to help. It just makes me feel bad/mad, too." I try to give as little reaction to the bad behavior as possible. If I lose it and start yelling or whatever, the situation just escalates.

(When he calms down enough to hear me) "Why are you so mad?"/"What's making you so mad?" "Is there anything I can help you with?" "What could I do that would make you feel better?" "Would you like to do [some activity he enjoys]?" "Why don't we make something good to eat?" Usually one of these will calm him down enough to the point where he can then talk about why he got so mad in the first place, and we can try to find a short of long-term solution.

Good luck with your daughter. I hope it all works out for you. It sounds like your living situation is really taking a toll on her. I know how much that can suck.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

Sphinx, hope you had a good breakfast! Do you think if you sat down with DH and quietly told him about how his behavior is effecting dd he could hear it? Or maybe letting him read this thread? You said he won't go to counseling but is he aware enough of his behavior to see how it effects your children? He may not be willing to change for you but maybe to be a better father to them? Just thinking here. I know my DH has a hard time "hearing" me when I have an issue with him, but if someone else says it he is open. Is there a good friend of his you could encourage to say something to him about this?

You are a very strong woman. It is so hard to be partnered with a difficult dh. I left my dh for a short while because I couldn't take his yelling. Part of our reconciliation was that there would be NO yelling for the duration of our 6 month "re-up". At the end of the 6 months we would decide whether we were going to "re-up" and for how long based on achieving that goal. That was the only condition of my return. So far we are 1/2 way there and there has been no yelling. I'm not suggesting you leave your husband. I'm just trying to "think outside the box" about how you can improve your relationship with him. On other idea is to "go out" to fight. My DH and I have discovered that whenever we are going to discuss a hot button issue we need to be out in public...at a restaurant, bookstore, library, shopping mall. Any place with other people around. This helps him to stay level headed because he wouldn't "rage" in public. And we stay out until we have sorted through the problem. Sometimes this has meant sitting all afternoon at a restaurant talking but it is SO much better to hash it out in a "civilized" manner. I don't know if this is pratical for you or not as you have dc but I wanted to share it









You might try posting in parents as partners because those are wise mamas who have had many, varied experiences. I really think that first your relationship with DH has to fall in line for dd to be less anxious.

More







for you!

Jenne


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thank you all again, yes i want that book maya44! he always reads a page or two of something i suggest then throws it to the side, murmurs that it is good and then goes about his business.

lckrause - i do many of those same things. honestly when it's just me and dd/ds, we can get through the situations really well. But add DH to the mix and we are all aflutter. DH KNOWS his ways are wrong. During quiet talks he says he knows, he wants to do better, he's trying... But ultimately he says he "can't help it" and he's apparently unwilling to really put the effort into "helping it" beyond the bare minimum.

i decided i am going to make a vow of not yelling (today was great) hopefully it will rub off on him.putting kids to bed now.
thanks so much.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

You've gotten lots of great advice.....I just wanted to add my support and experience.

My dd is 4, and the behavior you describe is her standard response to stress. If we had the kind of conflict and tension that you are describing in our home, she would definitely be acting out. Other things that can cause her to act out: certain foods (we are in the process of identifying as many as possible), certain environments (she has sensory issues, and is overstimulated by big, loud environments), travel, company, and *my stress*. None of these things guarantee a violent tantrum, but they significantly increase the chance of one.

What I do in the moment is (ideally) respond with calm and control. I know her patterns well enough to know what will and will not work. When she is acting out in this way, I know that talking and reason will not work (although they normally work extremely well with her--way above what you would expect for her age normally), so we skip that. I gather her up, facing away from me. I remove her from the immediate environment (a quiet spot if we are not home, or her room if we are home). I bear-hug her arms and control her legs and tell her "I won't let you hurt me". I don't tell her much else, cause we've been through it all before, kwim? During the rage, she is either screaming or laughing (nervous laugh), but when it is over she is crying. Then I snuggle her and comfort her and we try again.

Reading this thread, I believe that your dh's behavior is probably the biggest contributor to dd's behavior. Does dd see a chiropractor? I've recently begun taking dd to a chiropractor, and she is receiving craniosacral therapy--and I believe this is helping her a ton (decreasing her sensitivities, making her less likely to rage). BUT--in an environment as stressful to a child as what you describe, I doubt that many treatments done to the child would be nearly as successful as treating the source of the problem--dh and his rage. Frankly, that is where I would focus my energy--changing the environment so that dd *can* function and thrive.

Good luck mama. I know how difficult it can be to deal with this kind of rage in a child, and I have cried myself to sleep plenty of nights. Be sure to take care of yourself so that you can take care of everyone else. I know this behavior in itself can be draining on a mama, and, ironically, it requires a superior amount of patience of a mama. Do you have help with childcare so that you can get some time to recoup and reenergize?


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

My DD was so out of control that we were having her assessed for everything at one time.

We left her father and she seriously transformed over night.

I didn't realize how bad things were in my relationship with her father (we rarely argued, he never hit me, and "only smacked" the kids) until we had been away for a while, and I read this:

http://www.johannanko.net/RavensWitchAbuse.htm

I've been doing more research on emotional abuse, and it' just been mind blowing.
I cna now look back and see how I was manipulated into doing things that he would turn around and blame me for, I was "set up" to fail in many things, and even when he was being complimentary about me to others, he was doing it in such a way that I'd know he was being sarcastic, and not really complimentary at all. So he'd look like a nice guy who loved his wife, and I'd come off looking like an ungrateful bitch when I got offended at the veiled sarcasm.

Our daughter was diagnosed with "attachment related issues", but he refused to participate in any counseling or therapy, and was so obstructive of my own efforts that I gave up. (It's also useless trying to fix what isn't broken. If he's the problem, therapy for you and your child can only go so far.)

We are all doing much better now. Preserving the family unit is not worth it if you have to suffer abuse to keep it together.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Sphinx, thanks for this thread. I also have a 4-year-old and she does have violent behaviour at times, although at different levels (so far), also coming I think from tension in my marriage... and I found some good advice here from other posters.
One aspect that has not been mentioned in this thread is alone time. Can you arrange a fixed time once a week one on one 2-hours with your daughter? Preferably in your house? For my daughter, that is the miracle cure. We do a lot of things together like I do her nails (she loves to have nails painted!), wash her hair, we bake a cake, I really take all the time for her to really make her feel good and feel loved. She is a different person afterwards.
Mom to 4-year-old dd1







and 2-year-old dd2


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

I keep falling asleep with the kids every night and can't find time to get on to MDC. But I'm really appreciating all this feedback. I have to say (after reading that webpage) that while my DH is self-centered and immature in dealing with the children, he is definitely not an emotional abuser. The ironic thing about his behavior is that in the 10 years we have been together he has been a gentle, calm, generous man; this incredible anger of his only showed up after having kids, and in fact the kids are the reason for (or let's say, what triggered) his rages. Though he loves us and is very reponsible from the breadwinner end of things, he never wanted kids and feels trapped by the whole marriage/kids situation (typical male response). I think this is because our marriage has deteriorated with the energy going towards raising the children and not being partners first.

Having one child was ok, though it was an increasing challenge to learn to discipline as dd became more cognizant. But dh did pretty well, and dd was almost 5 when the baby was born, so dh had sort of navigated a path with her by then. But when the second one came along dh's stress levels soared & he just completely lost the handle on his emotional self-control. So we're in a double bind. We are growing further apart because of our clash over the children, but it is we who need to be together and solid as a unit in order for the children to feel healthy and safe.

sunnmama, i do try holding, but i am very small and my dd will kick, scratch and bite me. She seems to really need her space to rage in! Again, as I said, it's not I who has the real problem handling the situations as they arise; we tend to deal pretty well with them as long as no conflicting methods (dh) come into play.

What do you do with things like this: we can't jump on the bed. Our bed will break if dd jumps on it, it's a futon frame. I explained that it would break the bed and we wouldn't have anywhere to sleep. She said she doesn't care, she wants to break the bed, and she plans to keep jumping on it. How can I handle this? I can't let her not go in the bedroom. I can't tell her she's going to save up from her allowance to buy a new one (that would take 10 years!). I realize she needs to jump, so I even allow her now to jump on the couch even though it is also not really good to jump on (need to get a trampoline, but we live in a 500 sq ft flat)...

want to say more, but must get to bed.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

You mentioned you have a friend that your dd reacts well to and is close to. Is this friend the kind that would be willing to take dd out for icecream or some special time to talk about how your family needs to work together and what dd's role is in that? A therapist is a stranger that we are told to trust. A friend that your dd already knows might be received better, especially since she knows your dd and can use thattrust that is already there.

It's also relatively cheap, even if you offer to pay for the outing.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

that is a great idea! This friend is also dd's drum teacher. She is a little loquacious & not quite in touch with what is normal/not normal for a 5 yo but is purely loving and i think that is why dd responds so well to her.
thanks!


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

I am a counselor. And just wanted to respond to your post describing your family dynamics. A family is a system. You all have a role in it. Your DH is clearly reacting to some of the same stresses that you and DD are. It can be very stressful to live with a child showing violent, out-of-control behavior regardless of the cause. It becomes a vicious cycle. It sounds like you are all doing the best you can. I know you said you dh won't go to counselling, what if you upped the stakes a little bit. It sounds like he really wants to see some changes. Maybe if he believed it might help, he could be convinced to give it a shot. Family and couple's counselling might make a world of difference in your life. From reading this thread, it sound like YOU have a lot of doubts about counselling. I don't know what country you are in, but you might be surprised at what is available. It may be a little harder to find, but aren't your daughter and your family worth it? Let go of your doubts for a while, and just give it a shot. Even if you go in by yourself to get a sense of the therapist. Try to find someone with a "family systems" orientation. You may be so glad you did.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Is "family systems" same as "Family of Origin" therapy? I did the latter, and if you are from an abusive home, it is amazingly helpful in seeing connections.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

I do believe in therapy and I have a counselor that I see irregularly. We tried couples counseling twice, i threatened to leave if dh didn't go, and the first time was helpful - we saw her four times, then we moved. Now dh denies that that woman was ever helpful but i believe she really had a lot of a good influence. The second time (here) I didn't check out the counselor first and it was a huge mistake, the counselor was an idiot and we both left, disgusted, in the middle of the session - dh said it confirmed everything he believed about counselors/psychology and he refuses to ever go again. He grew up under communism and talking to strangers about your feelings is one of the most dangerous things you could ever do! We talk well together, and he knows he's losing it, he wants to be better, but he can't seem to catch up with his ideals.

ps the other majorly stressful part is that my 8-month old baby cried for the first 6.5 months of his life nonstop, and still sleeps only 30-minutes at a time unless someone is sleeping with him. This has put us all over the edge.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
What do you do with things like this: we can't jump on the bed. Our bed will break if dd jumps on it, it's a futon frame. I explained that it would break the bed and we wouldn't have anywhere to sleep. She said she doesn't care, she wants to break the bed, and she plans to keep jumping on it. How can I handle this?

The way I deal with things like that (when I am my best) is Playful Parenting: I'd just say, yeah, you want to jump on the bed and break it and I want to jump on the glasses in the kitchen and break them and dad wants to rip the curtains from the windows .... and then...... eventually dd will get the joke and start laughing. When she does, we can talk more and at that point she does say what was really bothering her in the first place (the reason behind the unwanted behavior actually started). And I repeat: I know you must be going ballistic with the baby not sleeping - my second had reflux and could NEVER be put down so my first who at the time of her birth was 21 months was jealous BLUE - but still try try to spend A LOT of time alone with dd1.

Good luck....

Mom to dd1 4 1/2







dd2 2 1/2


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Does your dd have sensory issues that you've noticed? If you have a "sensory kid" (like mine), then focusing on a sensory response can help a lot.

For instance, if dd were refusing to stop jumping on the bed, I would stop her, saying "I will stop you until you can stop yourself. I can't let you break the bed." Then I would redirect her to a sensory activity. Water play (in the shower, or a baby pool, or the sink, etc), or a bin of beans and rice, or making "kid sandwiches" (cushion on floor, child on cushion, second cushion on child--and then I put lots of pressure on the top cushion--even laying on the "kid sandwich") or a "kid burrito" (rolling kid up in blankets). When we see this kind of behavior from dd, these specific redirections often work when other redirections would not.


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

Wow. You have a lot on your plate right now. It's so hard that mamas often have to take the responsibility for the whole family's mental health. My friends and I often joke that our husbands were our first, practice children.

You say your DH never wanted kids, but now you have 2. How did that happen? It sounds like he has a lot of negative associations with family, and has a lot of fear and resentment (fear of failure?)

Modelling is very powerful. Do you know anyone who has a family dynamic that you admire? Can you spend time with them? DH won't read books or see a professional, either, but spending time with my family really helped him see what a family COULD be like. Having a playgroup full of nice families really helps, too.

Can you talk when he is not angry? You say that he knows he has a problem, and wants to change. Do you discuss concrete strategies, like, "When dd does this, I'd like to try ..." Could y'all take steps to nip things in the bud BEFORE someone gets really angry and irrational? My DH and I have code--when one of us is making the other angry in public (or in front of the kids), the other starts to hum a particular tune. It lets us know to check in with each other before the other gets really mad.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Again today she hit and kicked and bit and pinched me, worse than ever before. Didn't want to leave her little friends but it was really late - we should have left an hour before we did. I held her firmly, and (as I usually do) told her she could be angry but she cannot hurt anyone. I was firmer with her and less emotional myself - which I think has a huge impact on how she can draw out the situation. Still she cried for 35 minutes and mildly raged in the bus going home. When it seemed things had calmed down I asked her, "is it ok to hit me?" She said "yes!" I said "please tell me what you did that was wrong. she screamed "NOTHING!" really bitterly. I asked her again in a while, "do you think it is right to hit and kick and pinch me?" She said "yes, and I'm going to do it again whenever I want!". I said "I love you and i will not let you hurt me." She said very sarcasticallly "Ha ha! You always say that, and then you still do!" (still do let her, she means). I didn't know what to say to that. I asked her if she wanted me to hit and pinch and kick he back., She said "yes!" Please!" I said I wouldn't do that, and then dropped the matter, as it was clear she was still furious.
An hour later once she was home and fed and getting in bed, she came to me and said "I'm sorry for what I did. I'm so sorry mama, My heart is so big for you even when I am angry. But i just didn't want to leave." and then she told me she had something to say but it was bad, so she shouldn't. I said what is it? She said do you really want to hear? I said yes, and she said "I am stupid. Me!" I told her it can be frustrating when we do things we don't like in ourselves, but that we can learn from it, and that I love her. She promised she would never hit me again. I told her that I hope that is true but sometimes learning can take a while, so not to feel too stressed out but to just remember to try hard. She even practiced saying "I'm angry! I feel like hitting you mama!" and other such phrases, without being asked! Then she snuggled with me and went to sleep.

I told dh that she did things to me today she's never done before (pinching me really hard and digging her fingernails in, and punching me). He told me this behavior is getting worse (which it isn't, it goes up and down - but it's true she is crossing new lines which really worries me) and indicated that it's because I don't smack her one. I said why, to show her that hitting is wrong? He said to let her know that this behavior is going too far. He doesn't believe that hitting a child teaches the child that hitting is wrong.

Anyway, thanks sunnmama for the sensory tip - she is very sensitive to some things but also thrives on activity and tends to play too hard, then finds herself needing quiet and space when she's in the middle of her hard play. Also, there are no chiropractors around here, I have been wanting to see one. Hardly any for adults.

Modelling... well my dh is a hermit and when we (rarely) socialize together it's with people who more often than not are not really gentle in the way they discipline their kids. It's just different here, my friends are very attached but the vast majority of them are just not reflective about their parenting at all.

And as for coming up with a plan, we have done that a million times. When I do the signal, or whatever we have agreed upon, he rages at me. The anger (or often pride/ego) blinds him to all his best intentions.

thanks this thread has given me a lot of ideas.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
she is very sensitive to some things but also thrives on activity and tends to play too hard, then finds herself needing quiet and space when she's in the middle of her hard play.

This pattern is common with sensory issues. My dd, who has SID, is hypersensitive about somethings (sound, certain kinds of touch), and hyposensitive about other things (particularly, deep pressure). She will commonly ram her body into objects, or crash onto furniture, the floor, or us, to get the deep pressure stimulation she needs--especially when she is feeling "out of sorts". If these things sound familiar, you might want to check out some threads about SID on the special needs board.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

What a tough situation.

One thing that kind of jumped out at me in your posts is that you allow abuse (emotional in the form of yelling) from your dh but not from her. Maybe she sees that inconsitency and pushes her end. What do you do when your dh yells? If I were you I'd treat him the same way I'd treat a child (I mean if he's gonna act like one . . . ). I'd tell him that I would listen to him when he's ready to speak normally/nicely with me and then walk away.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Thank you for hosting this thread, sphinx. I also have similar issues but feel nervous about going into them in public for fear of being judged and found lacking as a parent.
I've learned a lot from this thread.
One thing I'm doing right now is reading Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. It's giving me a lot of tools for dealing with these situations. And many of the tools are helping me grow as a person and not just filling my parenting bag o tricks. I highly recommend this book and think you'll get as much out of it as I have been getting. Especially since I see many parallels in your child's behavior and my son's, as well as your relationship with your spouse.
2much2luv: hahahaha that's what I do lately.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*
...you allow abuse (emotional in the form of yelling) from your dh but not from her. Maybe she sees that inconsitency and pushes her end. What do you do when your dh yells?

I try to protect my kids first from his outbursts. i usually go away, but there's not far to go - we only have a 2 room flat. Sometimes I yell back. It really depends on my stress/exhaustion level how well I handle things. Usually he does some dramatic door-slamming exit. I am not innocent - sometimes it is I with the acid tongue (not yelling, but not patient) towards him. I have much more patience with my kids than dh.

sunnmama, i don't think it is what you are describing. thanks for the ideas.

thanks kmk, i also feel uncomfortable talking about it. Around here everyone tells me more or lesss to beat dd into submission. That she is this way because I am too indulging and treat her like an adult (that is, with respect). I have heard a lot about that book. I have to make a huge book order from the States.


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## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

I second the counseling idea. An additional resource to have around the house (maybe DH will absorb some of it) is this:

Parent Effectiveness Training : The Proven Program for Raising Responsible Children by Thomas Gordon. Get the most recent edition. It has some very practical and consistent advice for establishing healthy, respectful boundaries so that parents don't get treated like a doormat in the name of GD--of course, that's not what GD is about.


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## eorr (Jun 3, 2005)

I don't have kids of my own yet, so take this advice with a grain of salt.
I am a daughter of a father who yelled a lot and blamed my mom for everything. I don't think I reacted the way your dd does, but kept my emotions bottled up for later. I was a more difficult teenager to him when I found my voice to yell back in defense of mom, and now as an adult out of the house, I harbor anger for my mom that I'm trying to work through.
In reading your posts it seems that you're trying to work on both relationships, which is great! But that won't necessarily give you the immediate resolution with your daughter, which you crave. However, in your most recent experience with dd, it sounds like you actually made a breakthrough - something Jenne was talking about - being firm, dd testing boundaries (even pointing out "you say that, then you don't!"), then dd coming to a realization and discussing it later, talking about ways to resolve/avoid the problem in the future.








Two things came to mind:
1. Perhaps asking her if she thinks it's okay to hit is a bad idea. She wants to shock you and upset you, and asking her forces her to say "yes, I want to be "bad"." Then she has to swallow her pride later on to apologize and admit that she feels "stupid." Even now when I talk to my dad he'll put me into situations like this and I feel compelled to say the opposite of what I want to, in order to make a point, disappoint him, or just avoid agreeing with him in any way. I think it might be better to simply state that it's not okay with you, but don't force her to talk about it and dig herself deeper in the hole. kwim?
2. Instead of just trying to ignore the fights with dh, or remove dd from the situation (which doesn't seem to work, especially if the flat is so small), talk about them afterwards, or during. ("I'm very angry right now, so I'm going to find a way to calm down. Let's sing a song [or something else]." When you've calmed down, don't just forget about it. Continue the process "Wow, I lost my head there. Maybe next time I can . . ." or "I wonder what is making dad so upset. It sounds as though. . .") Talking about your own feelings of anger and frustration will show her how to learn to improve - the very things you want her to learn, and so wisely advised her (e.g. that it will take time and you need to just try your best). It seems to me that the fights with your dh are the perfect learning opportunity for all of you. You can model learning better techniques for her. I certainly wish my mom had given me a better example. She was just quiet and took it, never acknowledged a fight, but later on would speak poorly about my dad in front of me. This just made us all hate my dad, which made the situation worse. He always felt like the bad guy, like we were all against him, and that he didn't fit in. It's a vicious cycle.
Kudos for being brave! And Hugs to you and your family. You all deserve to be happy and feel loved and supported.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Thanks, eorr. Your words really spoke to me.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thanks a lot eorr. I definitely think you are right about #1. Today we had a worse blowout - she scratched and cut me around my eye and kicked me in the back. I put her in a room for a few minutes and told her that I really wanted to hit her, but I wouldn't. I know I should not have done that but I totally lost it. Then later this afternoon she started again chanting "shut up, shut up you stupid!" and hitting me as we walked together down the street, I was pushing the baby carriage. I just kept repeating "that is not the way to tell me you feel angry." and then ignored her and kept walking while she lagged behind me. She finally stopped poking at me, but she was still cranky and mean when we arrived home. This is one of the really disturbing things - dd never really gets over it. I mean sometimes I can hold her and we get past the point of the violence, but it is not resolved usually until well after that. She seethes and sulks for a long time. Clearly each situation gets her much mileage in attention. I have to just keep my emotions out of it (even though it makes me totally off the wall with fury and frustration) and not feed the fire.

Do you think it is ok to ignore her when she does this? I vacillate between thinking it is the best choice (because I am so upset) and thinking that it is neglectful of her deeper needs.

The problem with #2 is there is no fair fighting. DH just rages, does not care who is listening and has a really condescending tone and is verbally abusive. Then dd gets involved (starts taking sides or asking questions) and it all escalates. So generally i think the smartest line of defense is just not to engage. But it is hard, because I'm human too and I can sometimes give it right back to him.

I just looked on a attachment disorder website, and I think the majority of people in this country suffers from an attachment disorder.


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## eorr (Jun 3, 2005)

Wow. I'm very impressed that you keep your patience at all during these encounters. I don't know if I could do the same.
This may sound kooky, but what if you started stomping around and shaking your fists in a sort of funny "angry" state as well? Doing something dd totally doesn't expect might shake her out of a rage and get you both laughing. When my dh and I are frustrated at each other, if one of us can do something self-deprecating/funny, it can really help defuse the situation. It reminds me of a book I heard about where mirroring their emotions can help ("Gosh, dd is angry. She wants to stay and mommy needs her to leave. Man oh man is she upset.") I don't know, my SIL says it works on her 2.5 yo.
In fact, just today I asked my dh why he needs to pick on me, etc. (It's always light, playful stuff, but can get tiring.) He said, "sometimes I just need to flex my muscles and be like this." He suggested that if he lightly pushes me or purposefully gets in my way, I over-react to it by "flying" backwards, or slo-mo falling away, saying "Wow! Your muscles are so huge that even your little poke threw me way off balance!" It gives me a way to react positively and keep the interaction light-hearted. I don't know if it comes across very well in words, though.
Regarding your dh, that's a toughy. Sounds very much like my dad. Maybe something unexpected would help here, too. Can you tell him calmly that you love him, and you're sorry he's feeling so angry? Try to capture the feelings you have for him during the nice times, and mirror that back to him. I'm really at a loss on this one, since I still have anger towards how this was dealt with in my own childhood. I can't handle the intensity, so I picked a very laid-back guy (which can also be frustrating at times - LOL!) However, now that I write this, I remember my mom saying that he was very different before they had kids. Maybe that's similar to what you're expressing. At any rate, at least you're making an effort!


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

What a tough situation.







I feel for you.

All my words are said in kindness, but sometimes they come out a bit blunt and I don't know how to fix 'em.







I like brainstorming.









Quote:

She just refuses to try to express herself in words. Actually she told me it scared her to do that, and actually was shaking the few times she has practiced saying "I'm angry".
Have you considered encouraging sign language? The movements can be very gratifying, and it can feel safer to express yourself when you aren't using the spoken words.

It sounds like she may need to be shown new ways to express anger, in addition to how not to. Calmly saying, "I'm angry" doesn't actually release any anger. Are there any acceptable ways for her to let it out? Is she allowed to scream and yell? ("It's okay to be anrgy and to let it out. Like this! <stomping feet on floor> and yelling "AAARRRRGGGH! I"M SO ANGRY I FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO EXPLODE!") Is there anything she IS allowed to hit? Could you get her a punching bag, or something similar? Would you let her hit or kick the couch, or her mattress? It sounds like her feelings are so big that they NEED a dramatic outlet. Many parents (not saying this is you) are so afraid of their kid's anger that they never give them a chance to let it out, because all of the angry behaviors are off limits-yelling, screaming, stomping, slamming, kicking, hitting. I forget sometimes and get angry in response to my child's anger (she's 5.5), and she'll remind me... "I need to let the mad out, Momma."

Quote:

Typical scenario: today I said she could not ride on my shoulders, my back is killing me and, after begging me and pulling on my arm (which also hurt me) for 5 minutes, after I said "I would love to, but my back hurts, I am not just trying to deny you something for no reason - maybe you could be gentle with me!" she blew up: screamed "you are stupid", ran up to me, and hit me hard.
I tend to think that it would have been better to respond sooner and so she knows that hurting is never allowed.

Quote:

When it seemed things had calmed down I asked her, "is it ok to hit me?" She said "yes!" I said "please tell me what you did that was wrong. she screamed "NOTHING!" really bitterly. I asked her again in a while, "do you think it is right to hit and kick and pinch me?" She said "yes, and I'm going to do it again whenever I want!". I said "I love you and i will not let you hurt me." She said very sarcasticallly "Ha ha! You always say that, and then you still do!" (still do let her, she means).
Everything she said was true, in a sense. You do let her hit, or pull your arm til it hurts, etc... I think she may be asking for more limits. She needs to know that you won't LET her hurt you, that you are strong enough to be unharmed by anything she can throw your way. I think some kids really find a safety in that. To do that, though, you might have to become more restrictive/punitive with regard to hurting people. (immediate time-outs, etc) I'm not sure how comfortable you are with that, but it sounds like it might be worth improving how things are now. Only you can know.

As others have suggested, I would also consider underlying food issues. They can start at any time, even if she's tolerated the foods well for 5 years, and mild intolerances can decrease emotional resiliency, which won't show up when life is hunky dory, but can have dramatic effects when the child is under stress.

And as you know, the unhealthy fighting with DH in front of her needs to stop.







(Heated arguments done maturely, without yelling or personal attacks are a different story.) No, you don't want her to see you as a doormat, which I can understand... But if DH won't postpone the raging confrontation, take the kids and leave the house. I truly think it is that important. (I had a yelling DH who refused counseling, too. He also felt trapped by the marriage and kids. The divorce will be final next Tuesday.)

You seem very adverse and fatalistic about the counseling idea. Consider _trying_ to find a compatible counselor before dismissing the idea outright. You might not succeed, but at least you can give it your best shot.

Quote:

She said she doesn't care, she wants to break the bed, and she plans to keep jumping on it. How can I handle this? I can't let her not go in the bedroom.
Why not? During the day, anyway.







If she keeps jumping on it at night, you could remove the bedframe and put the mattress on the floor. Just an idea.







You could also try to fulfill her wish through fantasy... "I bet you wish you could jump on the bed til it broke into smithereens! Then you could bounce on the mattress until you bounced clear through the roof and bounced down the street like a giant beach ball!" Etc And one more idea... Whose bed is she jumping on? Does she co-sleep? If not, and if this is her bed that she wants to break, maybe she is saying that she wants to sleep somewhere else, or misses where she used to sleep.

Quote:

my 8-month old baby cried for the first 6.5 months of his life nonstop, and still sleeps only 30-minutes at a time unless someone is sleeping with him. This has put us all over the edge.
Yikes. This sounds like my ds, but worse, and I finally found out when he was almost 2 that he was gluten-intolerant. This sounds like it has a potential dietary source.... Have you removed dairy, soy, and/or gluten from his and your (if nursing) diet?

Just curious, which parenting books have you read? Someone highly recommended When Anger Hurts Your Child and I just picked it up fro the library, but haven't started it yet. It may be one that your family could get somethign from, too.

Parenting is _hard_, huh?


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thanks for your thoughts Whit. Geez, where to start. If my answers sound curt please don't take it as meanness, I'm just trying to be brief and to the point.

Yes, I have tried every single playful parenting thing in the book and then some, but when she's enraged she is too far beyond the transformation-into-fun moment. It does work sometimes, but rarely. I do try whenever I think there is a window but I have to be quickker than her.

Yes, I have always given her space and tools and ideas to let out her anger. She can yell, stomp, do a kicking dance, punch pillows... My suggestions for yelling her feelings are accompanied with movement, stomping or whatever she feels like doing, just not hurting another person. But of course she tells me it is ME (or little bro) she wants to hurt when I offer an alternative.

Problem again comes back to cultural diff between me and DH. When dd starts to let her feelings out DH tries to suppress & squash them. He tells her to stop making noise, that she has to calm down, and that she is provoking him. He angrily picks her up and puts her on the bed, telling her how she has to respect her parents and what a brat she is (or rather in very veiled language saying as much, or he mumbles meanly after he slams the door with her left alone in the room). So she is totally confused by our two opposite ways of dealing with her, and the vicious circle goes round and round.

This whole culture is severely control-oriented when it comes to kids. People on the street have even come up to us when dd's crying or struggling with her emotions (maybe loudly) and told me/her that she should be ashamed of herself, that I need to "control" her, that she needs to "learn how to act" and that she's being a "bad girl"! I kid you not. That is why I am not so hopeful for finding a good therapist. But I am looking. I talked to one of the Waldorf teachers about a therapist - she knows my dd and sees her problems. She said the only one she could recommend is in Germany... 8 hours away. I don't have a car or cash to get there. But maybe I can do some email consultation with the guy.

DD can't jump on our bed b/c it will break and I can't lift the futon to take it off, it's 2 x 2.5 meters and very heavy. I want to get dd a trampoline but we don't have cash right now for it. i can't keep her out of the bedroom because all her stuff is in there and we only have 2 rooms.

Living in a 4th floor flat with no yard is taking its toll. I try to take dd out every day to nature, to parks, she can ride her bike or her scooter thingie, she takes a drumming class, we have a lot of opportunities to get energy out. Dd & I also have special dates at least once or twice a week for 2 hours to recharge our relationship.

She has a loft space in our room but she doesn't want to sleep there - which is fine, i love co-sleeping - it's her alone place. We all co-sleep on the big futon. I could put that lighter futon from her loft on the floor, but we have hard oak floors and I don't think it would be enough protection, she could hurt herself. I will think up something though, I hadn't even thought of that, so thanks.

When I said she was pulling my arm until it hurt, she was just holding my hand and tugging on it as she asked me. it wasn't intentionally to hurt me. I always do immediately deal with the behavior, but she can get a lot of damage done in 10 seconds. And the question again comes back to how do I _not let her_ do something she is in the midst of doing and what is the proper natural/logical consequence?? I am a small woman and she is a big, strong kid. I pick her up but I can't bind her arms, she's just too strong. So as we walk with me holding her, she continues to hit and pinch and scratch and bite me. The thing is if I then leave her alone (either putting her somewhere or walking away) she starts to freak out, no don't leave me! and then I start to feel that maybe I should stay WITH her and help her work through it because she really lacks her own resources, kwim?

I don't know. I am starting to feel she has this attachment disorder problem but I don't know why. As an infant she was carried, loved, responded to, nursed until 2.5, etc etc and though I admit I was a nervous first time mom, my relationship with dh was much better then. And it was one of the few periods in my life I wasn't depressed though her constant crying did drive me batty. I think long-term colic on her part paired with later depression on my part and maybe then the disharmony in the marriage could have caused it? I feel so horrible.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Awww don't beat yourself up and blame yourself







Your daughter has her own special way of dealing with things. You love her and want to help her figure it out within the safety of her family.


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

You are one strong mama and you're doing everything you can.







Don't beat yourself up. Just think how much harder a time your dd would be having if she didn't have YOU for a mama, you know?









Sadly, it sounds like your dh and your community are bad for your dd.







Is there any chance of moving? Is there any chance of DH getting some help of some kind? If he refuses, how long will that be okay with you?


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

the other day she said this to me, and i thought it was a cute joke., now i am not so sure. "Mama, are you sure you are really my mama? For sure? I just want to make sure you are not a thief."


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
I don't know. I am starting to feel she has this attachment disorder problem but I don't know why. As an infant she was carried, loved, responded to, nursed until 2.5, etc etc and though I admit I was a nervous first time mom, my relationship with dh was much better then. And it was one of the few periods in my life I wasn't depressed though her constant crying did drive me batty. I think long-term colic on her part paired with later depression on my part and maybe then the disharmony in the marriage could have caused it? I feel so horrible.

It's not so far fetched.
My older daughter was diagnosed with "attachment related issues" despite me being the total wannabe-AP-mama. She was EBFed, worn, slept with, heck she slept *on* me for her first two years, not just *near* me.

Still she had the rages, the violence, the *mouth*... and then we left her daddy... and she became a "normal" 4 year old, not even overnight, but at the moment he left us at the airport. She asked if she *really* didn't have to see Daddy anymore, and I told her that since he didn't want to keep in touch, probably not, but I couldn't promise anything. She thought about that a while and said "It's much easier to be nice to people who love me. He doesn't love me so it was hard to be good. I can be much gooder now, Mommy, 'cause I know you love me."

Sure we still have our challenges, but now that the guy who didn't love her is not in her face telling her in subtle ways that "she's not lovable" every waking moment of her life, she's a much happier kid. Go figure. I'm happier too.

I'm not saying you have to leave yor husband to save your child, but at the very least, y'all need some outside help/therapy. If you can't get it locally, internet and phone counselling is getting more common and more "mainstream" these days. Start looking for resources on verbal abuse, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, and others to help you see what is currently going on in your life, and look for "non violent communication" "parent effectiveness training" and "verbal self defense" resources to help you learn to protect yourself and your daughter and hopefully teach your husband how to do better by you all.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whit*
You are one strong mama and you're doing everything you can.







Don't beat yourself up. Just think how much harder a time your dd would be having if she didn't have YOU for a mama, you know?









Sadly, it sounds like your dh and your community are bad for your dd.







Is there any chance of moving? Is there any chance of DH getting some help of some kind? If he refuses, how long will that be okay with you?

thank you - and i like the way you said this - it really opened my eyes. I'm not okay with it for one minute. I talked to a single mama friend today who has mucho contacts and will help me promote myself so I can get some high-paying, low hours work (like 15 hours a week but would pay enough to live comfortably). MIL is retired and willing and able to babysit as much as I need. I just need to get my website, flyers and business cards made, get a haircut and find some decent clothes and shoes.

Silliest, thanks for your story. I am so glad you got out of there. But just ftr, my dh absolutely adores both dd and ds and would never stop contact with them. In fact he took dd away for this weekend and I'm sure he'll come back tomorrow saying everything went smoothly - it's so clear to us both that it is the situation between him and me that creates 80% of dd's stress and acting out. The other 20% is between his immature reactions to her behavior and her just being 5 years old.

DH knows what he is doing is wrong and swears he wants to change and he IS trying -- just at a turtle's pace, and that is not acceptable to me because I can"t wait another 5 years for the environment to be safe for dd while she gets more f*&^ed up in the meantime. He is so down that he can't get a handle on his emotions, and he makes such more stress out of his daily life than it has to be that it is seeping all over the rest of us. Actually I'm not so far behind him on the stress scale. I love him and I know we can work through this but I think we need to do it from a distance because none of us is benefiting from the way things are going now.

thanks for listening, this thread is really helping me.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

I have to second the food issues, especially with what you wrote about your 8 mo screaming so much. My youngest did this and we finally figured out dairy was the culprit in the screaming. But, she never slept well. Finally, we figured out it was wheat. She is so much better. She was close to being diagnosed on the autism spectrum before we figured out the wheat. My oldest has since had wheat removed from her diet and is a changed child. She is less whiney and abusive, much more respectful of family life. Both also have sensory issues exacerbated by the dietary issues.

I think anger in a family is a vicious cycle. I truly believe tempers can be inherited like eye color. But, you can learn to use your temper constructively and not use it to abuse. It may be the major factor in her behaviour. But, I would keep a food diary. Write down EVERYTHING she ingests. Write down every behavior, good and bad. Right down physical symptoms -- congestion, restless sleep, etc. You may start making connections. Don't forget the times too. My girls also have hard time dealing with lots of stuff when more than a couple of hours has passed since they ate.

Also, make a date with your DH. I absolutely hate leaving little ones. However, I have found that if I leave them for an hour or two, and DH and I have a date, DH and I make a better pair for parenting. There is less anger and more patience. Men are worse than children when expressing their needs. And they do need us.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

how did your dd react to being alone with her dad for the weekend? Was she eager to go or reluctant? From the little you've said about how he treats her, he is being physically and emotionally and verbally abusive towards her, and it's obviously affecting her very negatively. Is she maybe acting out violently towards you because she's too afraid of her dad to act out with him? Sometimes it's hard to really face up to what's really going on when you care about your partner and don't want to hurt his feelings by telling him that he's abusive when he obviously loves the kids, but he really seems to need help. You taking part of the blame for his "rages" doesn't help anything, it just keeps him from taking responsibility for his actions.
Whatever is going on, whether the two of you stay together or split up, you need to be on the same page regarding discipline techniques if he's going to be in your kids' lives.







I hope you guys can figure this out together, and have the family you need....


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

he said there were no problems all weekend. She had a meltdown as soon as she came home. i believe it's because she didn't see me for 3 days and was very jealous of her little bro who stayed with me all weekend. She also had an exciting weekend in a different atmosphere and was processing everything today. I had grandma come b/c i had to go to the hospital to see a friend who had a tragic accident, and dd was really upset that I had to go (screamed for an hour that she hates grandma & doesn't want to be with her, of course it was fine once grandma got here). DH told me she had the major fit because I am "too soft" on her. None of the other factors seemed to mean anything to him.

let me clarify that DH is a GREAT "fun dad". He plays in depth with her, and is even is responsible as far as eating and getting her in bed on time, or such things,and in general can handle most of her behavioral issues. Sometimes they communicate wonderfully and he is usually very sensitive and loving. He just comes from a totally authoritarian upbringing and believes in complete submission from children. He says if I EVER said the things to my parents that our kid says to us, I'd be dead. Well, me too, but it doesn't mean I didn't WANT to say those things! I know he doesn't hit dd but he says things that really make her feel bad about herself. It is primarily when we are all together that he loses it. Because he feels I am scrutinizing his every move. Which I admit I am.

But I had little patience with her today and do not think I was being very soft at all, myself. I spent most of the day saying "no" or trying to defuse her outbursts and divert her from beating up her brother. Some days I just forget how to laugh with her.

I think my responses to her are too emotional. I am trying to be detached without appearing cold and mean. But I have to steel myself inside to do it, so it;s hard to then remain loving. if that makes sense.

One good thing - she had a tantrum that did NOT include hitting or hurting me or anybody else, just screaming at the top of her lungs for an hour! I consider this progress, because she is usually unable to express her anger without lashing out at whomever is nearest her.

I try to get dates with dh, but he is a workaholic (admits that it's because he doesn't want to come home to the chaos of 2 little kids and an angry wife) and I am usually so tired I can't be bothered anyway to try to arrange it. Sometimes we manage to get out for a couple of hours, but it should be a regular occurrence, you are right.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
Is she maybe acting out violently towards you because she's too afraid of her dad to act out with him?

Maybe, but she does do it with him too, just less so than with me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
You taking part of the blame for his "rages" doesn't help anything, it just keeps him from taking responsibility for his actions.

I am not sure how I indicated that I feel part of the blame for his rages - but I do feel that since having children I have been overly demanding, difficult to live with, often anxious and depressed, and indecisive to the point that living with someone like me would have driven ME crazy by now. Still, I believe that he is ultimately responsible for his own anger and what he does with it.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

That's good that they had a fun weekend!
It sounds like you guys are in a "pressure cooker" situation, where nobody is at their best -- all I can say is an unbiased, outside, neutral person to talk to(cough*counseling!*cough







) seems like your only option at this point. Even if only you and she go at first, maybe your dh would see the benefit?







hang in there and good luck!


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

My heart aches for you and your children...I am glad you are getting some wise words here.

From your second (or third? can't remember) when you first described your dh's behavior I got the "ah hah!" Yes there could be other things contributing, but his anger and rages at you and here seem to be a mirror of her behavior. It's great to hear that your dd and dh can have a good time together, and i'm wondering how you think he handles her when they are alone together? Maybe it is easier for him because it's a different environment and you aren't there? Do you trust that he doesn't revert to authoritarian methods? i am curious about these things.

I am also concerned about your own depression that you mentioned. You commented that there was a period of time that was the only time you haven't been depressed in your life. How are you taking care of yourself, mama? what about counseling for just *you*? you need support, cause it sure sounds like you aren't getting it from dh. Getting emotionally abused by both or dh and dd is taking a toll- you need support.

Your opportunity to make some money and separate for a bit sounds great. I hope that works out. Your dh is not going to change unless he wants to, and he initiates it. He can give you all the verbal promises and whatnot, but it isn't going to happen unless he wants to. period. Perhaps some separation and space would give him (and you) the opportunitiy to really think and figure out how your family can work together and if he wants to do it.

Best, best of luck to you. I hope that things get better... you are amazing to be doing as well as you are!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I read the OP a couple of times, and the child sounded in the realm of normal to me, but in need of some boundaries.

But I need more info. Most little children are not great at empathy and children nearing age 6 are very egocentric and bossy.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have skimmed through it, and one thing that someone said really caught my eye. Someone said something along the lines of, "If children are allowed to express their feelings, they will." I think that is absolutely true, and I think it is a double-edged sword. If a child is allowed to express herself by biting, hitting, kicking, etc., then that child probably will. Somehow your daughter has decided that when she does those things, you are not going to stop her. She has told you that, flat out.

To me, that is a child who is crying out to be given some boundaries. We are working with my daughter, who is 3, on the boundaries of expressing emotions. It's ok to be angry; it's not ok to scream. It's ok to be frustrated; it's not ok to fall on the floor and flail around. It is never ok to hit. And etc. When my daughter does these things and can't regain control of herself, I physically keep her from doing them. I hold her, I pin down her arms, etc., when it is necessary. Now, I'm not saying that I swoop in and restrain her at the first hint of strong emotion. But if she gets so upset that she has started to whack her brother or something and trying to "talk her down" isn't working, I restrain her. In my opinion, if a child is being violent and the parent is standing there saying, "That's not ok. I won't let you do that" but the child keeps doing it, then the child is learning that yes, the parent WILL let the child do it. I know that my daughter does not enjoy getting that worked up. I tell her that I am going to help her learn how to express herself in a way that does not hurt her or other people, and then I restrain her until she has calmed down enough to rehearse better ways to express herself. I don't have to do it often, but I do think that it's necessary that if I tell her something is unacceptable, I have to MAKE it unacceptable. And I think it's necessary that my daughter trust that I will follow through with what I have said. And I think it's necessary that my daughter know that I am going to help her manage her great big feelings.

I'm always hesitant to join the discussions in this forum because I am frequently told how disrespectful I am to my children because I don't let them hang it all out there emotions-wise, but I wholeheartedly believe that children can be taught ways to express themselves that allow them to work through their emotions without hurting other people (emotionally or physically), and I believe it's a parent's job to teach this, through physical (yet not painful or abusive) means if necessary. Due to my spiritual beliefs, I also believe that it's extremely important to help my children learn not to be controlled by their emotions.

To me, it sounds like your daughter is telling you she doesn't believe that you will put a stop to her abusive behavior, and if it were me and my child and the situation had gotten this far, I would start using physical restraint. Not only does your daughter need to know that she can't abuse others, but she needs to know that you won't allow yourself to be abused. I also think counseling would be helpful.

Namaste!


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Thanks. I do restrain dd and have been talking about and guiding her in expressing feelings since she was little. Dharmamama, I have a different philosophy (I think it's ok, in fact normal, for a 3 year old to scream and flail arms and kick on the floor) but in general I have done just about everything you detailed in your post. I think teaching kids not to be controlled by their emotions has to be appropriate for their progression of emotional maturity, so to me restraining a 3 year old is very, very different from restraining a 5.5 year old. And there would be totally different reasons for doing it. At any rate, dd was very articulate and, while always an intense child, never raged like this until our big move last year and the increasing stress between me and dh (which, incidentally brought out his and my rage for the first time, too) and then the birth of her little brother.

That said, I have and will continue to restrain my dd when she starts to hurt me (or others) but she is very strong, I am very small and I have a nursing baby on me quite often, so practically speaking it's not always possible or safe. In addition, she can rage for marathon lengths. I cannot sit with her and hold her body for an hour. Also, there are some times when ignoring the behavior (if it is light, such as swearing and tapping at me to provoke me) makes it go away lightyears faster, whereas my drawing attention to it exacerbates the situation. I am a pretty good judge of when ignoring it will work and when it won't.

uumom - you think it's normal for a 5 year old to kick and scratch her mom and rage for 30 minutes almost every day?

newmainer thanks, I am starting to do more things for me, but I am beyond exhausted and in constant stress, I just can't even think straight to try to put my desires into action. I do have my MIL help a lot, but we are not exactly on the same wavelength so just interacting with her is also tiring and frustrating for me.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Sphinx, just to clarify: I don't restrain my daughter for flailing on the floor. I find that behavior irritating yet probably developmentally appropriate. But I only restrain her when she resorts to wild flailing slaps and kicks. When she just falls on the floor and flails, I help her sit up and then stand up, take some deep breaths, and verbalize her feelings and practice alternatives to flailing.

My daughter is also very verbal, so the "terrible twos" were not so bad for us. I'm finding that three, with it's higher cognitive ability, is much more difficult.

Namaste!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Do i think it's normal? Yes...for some children, it is. For three of my children it would have signified a huge problem, but for one of my children, it was par for the course. Child needed to vent, needed to be heard, and did respond to my arms & boundaries. Not that it was easy. It was really hard.

When I have encountered behaviors that concern me, I seek out trusted folks to help guide me.

I am not a huge talker in these matters-- if my chidlren are hurting me or other folks, I'm right there and blunt. "This isn't safe. My job is to keep you safe and your sister safe". Period. Remove child/ hold child/be in child's face in kind way. No talking from across the room. No saying it twice. No saying anything I am not prepared to follow through on.

I am proactive with my words, with my loving arms. I don't have any problem removing and holding (no need to carry anywhere, just stop and drop) my children with tenderness and respect when the situation warrents. "Everyone in this family needs to be safe. No hurting each other".

But I don't waste a lot of time. if I think 'something is wrong' I try to get support. There are also some personalities who need us more than others. Who need out bodies *rightthere*, who do not respond to lots of discussion. if you think your child's behavior is not 'normal' you need a course of action and to surround yourself with folks you trust to help.

If a 5 yr old does not respond to a respectful and fully thought-out game plan, then you need something else. What that is is up to you. It's not something simple, but there are lots of gifted folks out there who might have some insight for you . You might not be comfortable with holding and comforting a child through a rage, but you do need to figure out ASAP what you are comfortable with.

So hang in there, and come up with a plan of action.


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

Does she eat dairy regularly? Is it a favorite food? Does she crave any foods? Does she ever have dark circles/bags under her eyes, skin rashes, constipation or diarrhea?


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Thanks uumom, i am glad to hear this is in the realm of normal for someone! Though I do believe it is in part too deeply rooted in these family problems and in part just because of an intense personality. I think i AM using too many words and this causes more struggle. I have come up with a game plan but dh doesn't follow it, so it is ok when we are all home alone but when he steps in it falls apart. However the past few weeks I have begun to see how impatient and inconsistent I am, all by myself, above and beyond my dh's attitudes. So I am trying to stop that. And I can hold out for a long time being loving, gentle and respectful and not losing my temper. But then one day, it just infuriates me to hear "shut up, you stupid" or "so what?" to everything i say. And then I lose it too.

Whit- thanks for those tips - dd never wanted dairy. She was vegan until well over 2. She loves cheese, now, though, and will accept ice cream or sour cream happily. No dark circles under the eyes unless she hasn't slept well. And... she's reg'lah like clockwork.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Quote:

I'm always hesitant to join the discussions in this forum because I am frequently told how disrespectful I am to my children because I don't let them hang it all out there emotions-wise, but I wholeheartedly believe that children can be taught ways to express themselves that allow them to work through their emotions without hurting other people


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
In my opinion, if a child is being violent and the parent is standing there saying, "That's not ok. I won't let you do that" but the child keeps doing it, then the child is learning that yes, the parent WILL let the child do it.

I absolutely agree with this and I know someone who parents this way with terrible results (constantly misbehaving, disrespectful kids and lots of stress from the situation feeding on itself). If your kid is past the point of listening/reasoning, there is _nothing wrong_ IMO with removing him physically from the situation or gently restraining him if necessary until he calms down. I honestly don't see how this is not GD.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
I am trying to be detached without appearing cold and mean. But I have to steel myself inside to do it, so it's hard to then remain loving. if that makes sense.

I totally understand this. I felt this way for a long long time. Then recently on this forum I had like a revelation. The key to this anger issue of mine is not about not SHOWING anger it is about not FEELING anger. I have been posting about this already, but here goes anyway. I went back to the exercises I did when preparing for childbirth -- breathing, but especially auto-hypnosys. I let my mind go to places where I was happy as a child, like my grandfather's orchard. And while my dd tantrums I am a 4-years-old eating strawberries.. however, my daughters never tantrum beyond perhaps 3-4 minutes....Already that seems an eternity to me.... My husband hates it that I stop everything I am doing to calm them down. But I still cannot hear them cry without running to them.... How can a tantrum last an hour? That would kill me. I feel for you Sphinx, it must be really hard. However, having a difficult baby as a second child is tough on any marriage. And on any big sister. Bad sleep causes tension too... With time the baby will sleep...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I read through the thread but not too in-depth so forgive me if I'm repeating or if I missed something.

What occurred to me while reading is along the lines of modeling. One thing that we do as parents (and especially mothers) is model how we want to be treated. I think taking care of our needs as individuals is one of the most important things we can give our kids (especially our daughters).

I understand that it is complicated to protect yourself from violence because you're the mother and your responsibilities to your child and to yourself become blurred when you're the "victim" and care taker at the same time. But, I would be putting the highest priority on modeling that preventing violence against you (or anyone) is a top priority.

I know you're trying this already but is there anything more you can do? Are there any signs that your child might begin got hit that you could anticipate and then remove yourself from the room? I know you want to be there for her but that seems to be sending mixed messages to her about what's acceptable if being there for her means that you're being injured.

What do you think of this?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oh, I did also just want to mention the general stress issue. I completely agree that sleep deprivation is a major stress source. As is a new child, marital troubles and challenges with discipline and worrying about a child's well being.

I would probably go into some sort of "lock down" mode at this point. I'd get way back to basics with the family. Stay close and calm down together. Make basic needs a priority ~ sleep, healthy food, relaxing activities, individual time. Cut all unnecessary causes of stress. Use any extra resources (friends, money, vacation time) for stress relief.

Let us know how things are going.

BTW, there's an MDC European gathering this month in Brittany. It wouldn't exactly be a stress-free trip for you but it might help.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Yes, thank you ICM, i have cut it back to basics and that helps. But our home is small and cluttered, and can be the source of (and/or exacerbate) things and dd is at the age now of starting to get "bored" so sometimes being at home too much is stifling to her and causes more frustrated & challenging behavior. We usually have to go out before she explodes at some point during the day.

gaialice- it's weird, i can also manage to not feel the anger in these situations for hours or days on end and then suddenly it's like i lose the calm completely and I blow up. I'm sure this does not help my child see any kind of consistency or real anger management.

I agree about the modeling, and I believe dd is so confused and trying to cross every line because the lines ARE so blurred. I wish I could go to Brittany but funds are short and we are supposed to do several other trips this summer. I have just decided to take a few months' extended vacation to my family's with the kids and give dh and myself some distance -- take a step back from this doomed cycle. Dd is going to have some issues with being away from daddy for so long, but he & I desperately need a breather from each other, some time and space for each of us to figure out whether we really want to be together (which I think we both do, but we got lost in being parents and forgot to be partners - ended up doing badly at both!), and if so then to make renewed commitments independently and together to heal our relationship.

Ultimately though I fear we still do have different and possibly irreconcilable beliefs about childrearing/parenting. I don't know how we are going to be able to continue without agreeing on these things. I think the time and separation shall reveal... thanks for the support mamas. What a learning experience, to have the point clearly driven home that my child's behavior is more or less just a mirror of my relationship wih her dad.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I have a daughter who is extremely strong willed and used to be prone to violent tantrums. Unless you have a child like that, it's hard to imagine what it is like.

I highly recommend the book Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. MacKenzie Ed.D. It helped us change our communication style, which made a huge difference with my daughter.

I agree that you also have big issues to deal with concerning your husband, but you might want to check out the book as well. There are reviews on Amazon.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Spinx, it sounds to me as if you are in an abusive marriage, and that you need to find a way to deal with that first off. I understand you are not in the US -- could he have taken you there to further isolate you and increase his control? Is there any sort of support for women who are being abused in your country? In the States, you don't have to be physically assaulted to qualify for help.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have been debating on weather or not to reply to this thread.

stress of the situation aside she seems really immature emotionally lik she has never been taught to deal with her emotions appropriately and every big emotion has been codld and accepted. While it is developmentally normal for a three year old to throw themselves on the ground it should be delt with then and not brushed off "well that is normal for a three year old so we will let her go with that." Since it wasn't delt with firmly at three it has become aceptable at 6 and grown as she has matured and understands more ully how these behaviors work to manipulate the world around her, getting her what she wants and allowing her to rule the roost.

you said she walks by, flicks you and swears at you. you tell her "we don't do that in this house" but she just did and there is no consequence for it so obviously you do allow that in your house. looks to me like you allowed it. and while I feel like the esscalation of her behavior is perfectly normal under those cicumstances I also think it is perfectly normal for a 6 year old to be able to act in a more appropriate manner so long as they have been taught.

I do not feel like it is too late for your d but I do feel the road will bea long one. my oldest was a lot like your dd because there were no consequences to her actions and she had little natrual empathy (which can be taught but lets face it, its easier and a blessing if it comes natrualy) So we went into total survival mode. for the first month the whole focus was mostly on her (your dd seems to be crying out for atention and boundries. time to impliment some boundries and overflow her attention tank) I kept M within arms reach of me at all times. every moment of the day as an oppritunity to help her learn appropriate behaviors, see me modleing apropriate behavior, discussing feelings, how we treat others and why, role playing. and seriously until she could be trusted to at least act as if she cared about others above herself she was not let away from my side. no friends, no homeschool events, no lessons,no TV, I did let her go to sunday school but would have yanked that if I needed to. this not only realy simplimfied our lives (I also cut out computer and social life for me so that I could really focus on her) but allowed us to cut out any influences that would work against us. once she showed she had an understanding of why and how she should behave we gradually let her move out (all three of my children still stay really close to me most of the time to prevent problems and nip them right away in thier infancy) and invited friends and activities into our lives but only under close supervision and only as much as she could handle without problems cropping up. we never went back to the crazy schedule we had before though. it has been a long hard road but she is much improved. She is a lot more secure socialy (because she knows she behaves in a way that will make people want to be her friend), and she has more internal hapiness. and she is even beginning to be internally motivated to put thers feelings and needs ahead of her own. once she did and felt the reward the rest was just disciplnig herself to act that way so she could be rewarded with that feeling not to mention the praise that goes along with having a generous heart. another thing we drastically changed was making sure we stuck to rituls and routiens (hey since there were no activities or friends getting in the way we had the time :LOL) nutrition and sleep habits. these also really helped. the routiens and rituals really realy helped because since she knew what to expect she melted down les.

so hope some of our experiances can help. hope you can figue out something to do. left aone this will only get worse. I don't think this is an allergy or disorder that needs to be treated. it sounds to me like she has just had her emotions, inappropriate expressions and bad atitudes indulged and inappropriate behaviors go completely unchalleneged.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Pookietooth, thanks, but - um - let's say it has been mutually disrespectful, I wouldn't say abusive (yet) but that is where it could lead if we don't come to a place of mutual understanding, and soon. I have lived in this country for over a decade except a short stint in the US after my dd was born. My dh has no interest in isolating or controlling me. He is very supportive of me, independently. But his gut reaction is to try to control the kids, which is where our marital problems actually began. We never fought once until we had dd.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
While it is developmentally normal for a three year old to throw themselves on the ground it should be delt with then and not brushed off "well that is normal for a three year old so we will let her go with that." Since it wasn't delt with firmly at three it has become aceptable at 6 and grown as she has matured and understands more ully how these behaviors work to manipulate the world around her, getting her what she wants and allowing her to rule the roost.

I wish it were such an easy diagnosis, but it's just not true. I never brushed off her behavior, I have always been a very attentive mother and talked about principles, modeled what I wanted to see, and immediately strove to nip in the bud any problematic behavior. At 3 I *did* work with her a lot on learning acceptable ways to express emotions. She has not been left to navigate the world of emotions on her own! She has (had) natural empathy. She has always been extremely intense, spirited, etc. Nonetheless she was a delightful, articulate, emotionally balanced (some even would have said advanced) kind and gentle, happy little girl, until we moved back here last year, she got a little brother and her parents' relationship began to spiral downwards.

Also, she doesn't rule the roost. 70% of the time she is agreeable, does her chores, helps me willingly and wants to be happy and tries to do the right thing that she knows implicitly. She is always asking moral questions, always trying to figure out the world... it is only lately that I sense she has stopped believing me - trusting me - like you know that obvious feeling children have that their mama knows everything? She seems to have lost this recently. I have always respectfully explained to her that I've got reasons for why I ask her to do what I ask her to do. I will tell her those reasons if necessary, but it never used to be. She used to accept my word without question, now she sometimes rolls her eyes and says "yeah, and? or "so what?" I believe this is from seeing the conflict between me and her dad, and watching me shut up while dh rants so as to at least diminish it when we are in front of the kids. Trying to look at my own situation objectively, this behavior would say to me she can't trust her environment to be stable starting from the parental unit on down.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
you said she walks by, flicks you and swears at you. you tell her "we don't do that in this house" but she just did and there is no consequence for it so obviously you do allow that in your house

.

She did that once. So... okay, she did it. But how can I change that? She already did it! What should the consequence be? Nothing I do seems to have any effect except i see the more attention it gets her, the more she'll do it. So WHAT should I do!? Especially if I am outside and can't physically do much with her. I mean, at home I can go lock myself in the bathroom while she tries to break down the door (which is what happens when I try to separate her from me). Or, if I stay with and hold her, she continues to beat me or try to. So I want to know what the moms who "don't discipline" or use "just talking" would do with a child like this, because I don't want to make it a power struggle, which is what everything becomes with dd these days. I think one of the problems has not been that there is no consequence, but maybe that I have tried too many types of consequences and have not been totally consistent - but moreover, even when I have been consistent, dh is not on the same page, so he comes and changes the entire ballgame right in the middle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
it sounds to me like she has just had her emotions, inappropriate expressions and bad atitudes indulged and inappropriate behaviors go completely unchalleneged.

Well, that is a completely inaccurate inference. But I appreciate your advice. Thanks for hashing it out with me.

Oh - and EFMom, thanks! I will get that book.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

well then it doesn't sound nearly as bad as it did in your first post. it just sounds like she freaks out every now and then. I was under the impression this was her standard method of operations. but if my child ever swore at me (although swearing has never ever been tolerated in this house) or flicked me I would have called her on it accepted the power struggle and delt with that. it sems like a clear challenege to your athourity. tyou may not want to be an athourity but perhaps she needs one.
just a thought but some people like knowing that someone is in control especially when thier world seems to be spinning out of control. perhaps it wouldn't hurt to stand up and be in control and let her know that it is time for things to get back in control.

people who like to lead and like to have control of everything (not saying in anyway that that is bad) don't always realize that some people (me for example) don't always like to do that. they like for someone to stand up and take control, be a strong sure leader and be the one who stresses over everything and keeps everything balanced and running smoothly while they just show up. Might not hurt to try that for while. at the same time it is really hard to ask for it or even reliquish our half held control because we aren't supposed to want to follow. it makes us weak and stupid sheeple (look around MDC for that attitude. it is all about raising kids who will be leaders and question athourity. no one wants one who obeys - horrors- , strong wills are praised, etc etc . . . the messege is clear that if you want to follow, if you want to find a realy great leader and be the go to guy you are less than but I digress). my point is it is hard for me to give up control even when I really need and crave someone to take over and just fix everything. it usually ends with me loosing a powerstruggle and then realizing it isn'tso bad nopt to have to make the descisions and plans. people avoid power stuggles like the plague but I don't think they are all that bad. sometime when you are looking for a leader you just want to make sure they are stronger and smarter than you. once that has been proven following them is much easier because you know they are worth thier position of athourity. you know they can handle it better than you can. just some random thoughts from someone who likes for someone else to take control (me) but wants to make sure they really are better than the athourity who let things spin out of control (me). it seems weird in writing but so many of us do it.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

i hear what you are saying lilyka. Well... as i said 70% of every day is ok but the other 30% is like a running monologue of challenge, throughout the day... it's just so hard to function when every thing we are doing is peppered with snottiness, negativity, meanness and defiance to what I say. I hate struggling with things that should be normal and easy. She just takes everything SO seriously and is SO sensitive - I definitely find the power struggle monster speaking through my mouth sometimes as well.

btw - if my dh did lead or control the childrearing, things would degenerate into empty threats, dh's tantrums, name calling and eventually violence, as quick as you please. I can't leave the kids with him for too long under normal circumstances (taking dd away for the weekend to the woods is different - it's a vacation guaranteed to be fun, and he's not stressed from work or demanding her to do any of her duties at home, or whatever) because he explodes in completely normal situations, so that means I have to get MIL to watch the kids if I want any kind of free time. I deeply resent not being able to trust him to be my backup. Partners are supposed to be on the same page. For example, I thought we agreed on certain things like junk food, nope, suddenly it comes to light that he gets her whatever she asks for.


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## LadyGodiva (Nov 12, 2004)

Quote:

They are all very bright, creative kids who we enjoy being around, but who definitely give their parents a bit more of a challenge, and who tend to not respond in the way most parenting books say children "should" respond using GD/AP methods
I was going to suggest books, too. I like Steve Biddulph. But hey! books are very nice, they are not a miracle remedy (that would be easy if that was the case)... it's theory after all. Should be taken with a grain of salt.

Quote:

By controlling the number of choices you retain some "power" and for some children knowing that the adult is in charge and going to handle things is comforting while the independence of the choice doesn't make it a control issue.
Maybe she has too much independance? Maybe she needs more 'control' for the moment, (in the positive way) ... I'm sure she feels unhappy about the whole situation, too. And with the move, the new baby brother it's maybe too much to deal with 'on her own'.
I would say that most children feel safer & comfortable, knowing the adult is mostly in charge. Responsability can be a heavy load to bear - at any age!

Quote:

I'm not in the States and I definitely believe it will be an uphill battle finding a normal therapist who believes in the rights of children.








there are exellent therapists with a true love and deep respect for children outside the US! We non - americans love our kids, too you know.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyGodiva*







there are exellent therapists with a true love and deep respect for children outside the US! We non - americans love our kids, too you know.

I would laugh too, but you don't know how it is here. I know people love their kids here but thpositive parenting is just not a concept here at all. Sorry, I guess I should have worded that totally differently. Of course I know that all cultures love their children and by far I don't believe that U.S. even has the market on understanding kids (though TV psychology alone is chilling evidence of deep and dedicated evaluation & analysis of children's minds going on) or that people in the U.S. care more!!! Not at all (in fact quite the opposite in many aspects of childrearing which I won't get into now). However, where I am now, in Eastern Europe, there is a very antiquated and authoritarian/punishment model for parenting and there just aren't a lot of experimental kind of professionals out there who are questioning the status quo. I have done some research and even in the alternative groups there is still more or less an assumption that children are to obey without question, that crying and showing emotions can be tolerated but only for a minute, that shaming/instilling fear is an effective/good way to teach, spanking is acceptable and so on. I AM looking around. But I just haven't found the diversity of experience with or approaches to children that I know exists in more diverse countries. So all I was trying to say is, where I live there is not the diversity and innovation in research and treatment the way there is in the U.S.


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## MusicLadyToo (Feb 27, 2005)

Wow! That's my first reaction to reading through the five pages of posts here. I can so relate sphinx to what you are saying and dealing with and applaud you for how you appear to have handled it so far. I have learned a lot from the posts and also had some stuff I was already trying reaffirmed. On that note I wanted to say one thing that helped me some was to find time for me. Even if it was 15 minutes locked in the bathroom. (And I don't mean when everyone is screaming or pounding on the door). Try to find 15 minutes every day to reflect on you. Who you want to be. I found that when I don't get that, it makes coping difficult. Maybe when dh is playing with dd, he can keep ds nearby and you can go in the other room or even sit on the stairs or whatever. . . it's just a suggestion. I know my hardest thing is modeling behavior. I grew up with screaming and yelling and spanking and am trying to not follow that mold. I know that when dh and I "disagree" it typically turns into a yelling match that accomplishes nothing but showing the kids how "not" to behave. I know I have to try harder and reading here has given me some suggestions. I hope that things work out for you!!!


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Spinx,

You said earlier that your dh would be unlikely to go to therapy due to an experience with an unhelpful therapist and because of the way talking about/expressions of emotions were treated when he was growing up. I have a suggestion that might help him.

Alice ****** is a "psychotherapist, researcher, and author of several books concerning the influence of childhood on the life of adults." She gives a lot of good advice on how to find the right therapist and about why we need to look honestly at our childhood or be doomed to repeat it with our own children.

I think Alice ****** herself is in Germany. Her web site (www.alice-******.com) and books are in English, German, and French. I have three of her books. They are quite short (under 200 pages), but they are powerful.

IMO, your dh's behavior needs the most work. Until your dd feels safe and secure, her behavior won't (can't) change that much, no matter what you do. It seems to me that she is scared and confused, and she's acting that out. A 5yo can't be expected to act normally when one parent is going around acting the way your dh is acting, even if the other is doing their best to be calm.

Maybe while you're on that extended vacation you mentioned (I hope you're still planning on that) you and dd could get some therapy...could you go back to the first therapist you and dh saw (unless that person is in the states)? If you all get some help during the separation, I think yoiu have agood chance of remedying the situation. Otherwise, it might be better at first, but will likely degenerate back into what you have now, or worse.

Another site/book to check out to help you understand/deal with your dd is http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/...art_love.shtml

Peace,


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thank you. Yes, i am going on the extended trip, which saddens me but it will give us a cooling-off period. we can't go back to the same counselor, she's thousands of miles from us. And he refuses anyway to go to anyone. We shall see. Things hae been improving as I keep my own breath going and refuse to feed the fire. But dd is seriously challenging these days!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I just couldn't read all 5 pages of this and not give you a


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

First, lots of







to you!

Second, I can relate to a part of your story. My dh and I have been arguing a ton since my dd was born. (And we used to get along so nicely too!) And, just like you, the majority of our arguments are about how to raise dd and how not to fight. :LOL Anyway, a couple of things have been working for us. First, we've made a list of all the things we disagree about parenting. (Like, how much APing to do, codling vs. caring, responding to crying, etc.) Then, we decided which ones we felt comfortable disagreeing about--agreeing to disagree. IMO, I don't think parents need to be on the same page all the time. In fact, some of my fondest memories of my childhood were when my dad would take us out to McDonalds(!), even though my mom never let us eat any junk food. My dad would make a big deal out of it being a special trip, that we had to sneak out, and that we shouldn't tell my mom--which of course we would do as soon as we got home, and she would act horrified. Looking back, I'm not sure it was the best thing to make it seem secret, although since we snuck out, it did give my mom a chance to sleep in. But my point is that I don't think parents need to agree about everything.

For the points that dh and I couldn't happily disagree about, we schedule a night to talk about one issue. (We have to both be feeling pretty neutral about the topic going into the discussion, or we'll put off the talk.) That gives me time to prepare my case (my husband is a mathematician, so I know that I need solid, peer-reviewed research in order to sway him) and jot some notes. Then we attempt to talk about the issue. Sometimes we solve one in one night, sometimes we have to stop ourselves after an hour, and pick it up again.

When we really want to keep talking, but are both feeling heated, we have these special communication mats that make us physically act out our talking and listening stances. For example, he has to stand on the listening mat, and needs to nod his head, then sum up what I said, then ask for clarification, while I stand on the talking mat to state my ideas, then my feelings, then my concerns. Then we switch mats. Then we switch again, etc. It really helps us from getting off topic, or too angry. (Maybe because it feels so silly to have to stand on mats in order to talk. Feels a bit like being in preschool again.) Perhaps your daughter would like to watch you both talk this way, since it is so structured, and it would also give her a chance to see you as a strong, opinionated, articulate woman (like I can tell you are from your posts). By the way, PM me if you are interested in the actual mats that we use, although I'm if money is tight, you could make your own.

Oh, another thing, when we are talking, I have to repeat the mantra to myself "Dh is not my enemy. Dh is not my enemy" in order to not be seething with anger when he is just saying his opinion. (Even if it is too loud for my liking.)

Whew! That was longer than I thought it would be! HTH!


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

thanks, those are great ideas. but my dh is a slacker, he doesn't want to make agreements about anything if at all possible to avoid it, and trying to get him to write anything down or discuss methods usually ends in him rolling his eyes at my meticulous attention to detail. Anyway, anything we do manage to agree or write gets forgotten in the first 5 minutes of an argument. I think we both really need anger management & communication training.

i have to say I am stunned at how organized so many of you seem to be about relationships and life. I just feel completely random.


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