# protecting our children from a draft



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

anyone more knowledgable care to share what the options would be for our kids if there is a draft??

How easy will it be to get our kids out of the country? And where could they go? What are the other possible options? Because it seems like College isn't going to be an out.

freaking out here, because I do not want to even think about what I would do if my daughter died in a war I do not support because she was forced to go.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

There's not much I wouldn't do to prevent my children from attending and dying in a war.

Has anyone read Prayer for Owen Meany? Owen cuts off the tip of a finger for John, so he's exempt from the draft.

My husband wants to leave the US anyway. For the sake of my boys, we'd emigrate immediately.

Amanda


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I hear Canada would send draft dodgers away and turn them in or something. I wish I could remember where I'd read that...


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

step one for protecting kids from draft -- don't vote for Bush... he is why we are even in this predicament.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

I've lived abroad before and I CONSTANTLY think about doing it again. I could. I speak other languages and have a set of skills (civil engineer) with which I could work anywhere.

However, when I am NOT tired, and when I remember my committment to society, I resolve to stay here to try to be one of the many drops in the bucket that might eventually improve things. Maybe I'm a fool, but life's too short for me to run. If I do, I'm convinced I'll have to keep coming back until I get it right.

Soooooooo. Bearing that in mind, what I hope for if there is a draft, is that my son follows the example set by Cassius Clay when he said, "No vietcong ever called me ******!" and went to prison rather than Vietnam.

Of course, it will be his decision. And I will love him no matter what. (And, of course, being very "white" and very blond, he obviously won't be using the same words!







)

And, he will have a way of being a consciencious objector if he so desires as I am an Attender at the 15th Street Friends' Meeting House in New York. He will be, too, some day, and he may decide to ask to become a member.










edited to fix an emoticon


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2004)

This link is interesting re: the draft

http://www.thefourreasons.org/News/Drafted.htm

*"There is a projected $28 Million to be appropriated to the Selective Service System in the Fiscal year 2004 to have the Draft Board Ready by June 15, 2005."*


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

18 to 26 years olds all must do 2 years. It isn't a lottery. They can't get out because of college. If you are in College you must finish your semester and then go, unless you are a senior then you can graduate and go later. Can't go to Canada. Women are treated the same as men.

The twin bills are pending legislation and could pass as soon as the spring of 2005!

My daughter is going to be 18 in just a couple of years and I am scared...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

This totally sucks Marg!!!!!!!

I know, I read the bill too.


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## RowansDad (Mar 27, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sohj_
*follows the example set by Cassius Clay when he said, "No vietcong ever called me ******!" and went to prison rather than Vietnam...*
A bit of a nitpik: Clay was very much Muhammad Ali in 1967 when he refused to be inducted into the US Army on the grounds that he was a Muslim minister and therefore a conscientious objector (the fact that he made a living doing something pretty violent made this somewhat ironic).

Also, while found guilty of draft evasion, stripped of his heavyweight title, embargoed from fighting in the US for 4 years and, sentenced to five years imprisonment, he never served any time in jail and his conviction was later overturned in 1971 by the US Supreme Court in an 8-0 decision.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:

They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street, .....

















Quote:

and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the
other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on
the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the
following words:

("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")

I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to
ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm
sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench
'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women,
kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and
said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints
off to Washington."

And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a
study in black and white of my fingerprints. And the only reason I'm
singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into
the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get
anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out.

















http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml

(Not to be flip...but I think that I'm slightly this side of hysteria and all I can do is hear songs in my head in a free-association, jazz riff kind of way.) )


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

RowansDad:

No problem with nitpicking. I know that it was overturned (and a good thing, too) and that he didn't do the full five years; but, I thought that he still ended up doing some jail time. And, yes, he was very much Muhammed Ali, but, as I recall, the court called him Cassius Clay...but I've never looked up the citation and read the decision. Guess I should before I start claiming to know what I'm talking about.







ag Still doesn't detract from his statement. He didn't know it ws going to get overturned. And a lot of people who were probably going to go along to get along also probably changed their minds because of that. I met one person when I was little who claimed that.

Also, as violent as boxing is, it is something that happens in a specified arena and doesn't normally involve passersby and other "non-combatants" as war does. My mother was a boxing fanatic (never totally understood why, must have had something to do with repressed rage) and I have been at matches -- even ringside -- and, while I haven't enjoyed my time there, I never got hit and no one ever pulled me into the ring. Just food for thought.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The military does not accept people who have taken Prozac or Ritalin. Just have your kids take a few of these.

My dh's ex-wife's first ex-husband :LOL got out of Vietnam by lying. His number was pulled, and he told them he was a transvestite bedwetter and that he would kill his commanding officer the first chance he got.

It worked, but dh says he really felt shamed by the recruiter people and that it almost wasn't worth it.


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## RowansDad (Mar 27, 2002)

I said it was ironic, not hypocritical. But you gotta admit, the combination of conscientious objector and boxer lends itself more towards that 'One of These Things Is Not Like the Other' thing rather than bedfellows.

BTW:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=403&invol=698


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Why can't we go to Canada? They won't take us? Bahjesus.

Okay, so someone tell me, what does it mean that it was floored in congress?

Amanda


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't understand this. We just had a proposition on our last ballot about whether we should spend the $ to investigate exempting our state's kids from future drafts. I THINK that's what it was.







Well, duh, I voted YESYESYES but it lost; ie. everyone is too freaked about our budget crisis.

But...


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

I found this. It's interesting.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/wiggins5.html

AM


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Does anyone know if only children are still excempt from combat duty?? I know that when my dad was in the military during vietnam that he didn't have to do combat duty because he was an only son. I'm wondering if that might still be in effect and if so it applies to daughters.

looking for any out. But dh reminded me that his dad was a mexican citizen until he died and he still has family there so we are going to see about going there. Good thing he is fluent in spanish.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marg of Arabia_
*The twin bills are pending legislation and could pass as soon as the spring of 2005!*
Aren't these the bills that one of the Democrat Congressmen submitted just to make a point about the war to the Republicans?

I remember that they went nowhere because they weren't really intended to... are they up again with any sort of actual backing?


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

I have a young son and I would be proud of him acting like a man to serve and protect our country. I would miss him and be scared to death, but I hope I raise him to be brave and honorable. Now my daughters are another story. I think it is ridiculus for young women to be drafted. It breaks my heart every time I hear of a mother leaving her young children to be in the military. I think there is something seriously wrong in thinking a mother should do that. You have to wonder about the effect it will have on the small children.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I personally don't want my children of either gender going to war. If they choose to, that is another story and I want my girls to have that right as well as my boys.

But being drafted and possibly forced by their government to die...no way.

And I can think of about 5 billion other ways for my future sons to be men.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

I hope my son acts like a man and refuses to become a pawn of greed and tyranny!


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Islandmama...Important!!!...i pm'd you!


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

T

:LOL no worries, Liz! It's time to branch out!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I have a young son and I would be proud of him acting like a man to serve and protect our country. I would miss him and be scared to death, but I hope I raise him to be brave and honorable. Now my daughters are another story. I think it is ridiculus for young women to be drafted. It breaks my heart every time I hear of a mother leaving her young children to be in the military. I think there is something seriously wrong in thinking a mother should do that. You have to wonder about the effect it will have on the small children.*
What about the effect of growing up without a father? Or even being without a father for a substantial amount of time? It traumatized my brother when he was small and our dad would go out to sea for 4-6 months at a time.

I think ANY draft is horrid (and that whole "brave and honorable" thing.... well, sometimes the brave and honorable thing to do is to refuse to fight a war that you don't agree with) - but if there were to be a draft, there's no less reason for women to go than for men.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Does anyone know if only children are still excempt from combat duty??....*
No, they are not. You can get more information here (bold is mine):

_"In 1948, in order to safeguard the only remaining sons of families that had lost other children during World War II, the United States passed a law that exempted sole surviving sons from the draft. *This exemption applied only when one or more children (sons or daughters) from the family had already died or been killed during military service.* In 1964 this law was modified to extend the exemption to sons who were the only surviving male offspring of fathers who had died as a result of military service, and at the same time the exemption was altered to apply only to peacetime drafts. This law was modified again in 1971 to extend the exemption to any son (not necessarily the only surviving son) whose father or brother (or sister) had died in military service._


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

well that sucks.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

This whole topic sucks


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

.

Quote:

It breaks my heart every time I hear of a mother leaving her young children to be in the military.
But, why should my sons have to leave their childrens behind to go fight a war they don't believe in? If they believed in it, they'd enlist or go to the Academy.

I think it's vile & reprehensible to force my children to fight and possible die for someone else's bloated war mongering ego.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by isleta_
*This whole topic sucks







*





























:

Pass the Prozac...


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

The last draft allowed for CO, which is what we would be. We will be teaching our children to live in such a way that there would be no question as to the sincerity of their request for CO status.

We might emigrate, too, but dh's country seems to be harsher with CO's than the US. He was "drafted" at machine gun point at the age of 17 there.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*The military does not accept people who have taken Prozac or Ritalin. Just have your kids take a few of these.*
Where did you get that information? We know quite a few soldiers and officers who take Prozac and other antidepressants. They pass them out like candy during deployments, and I imagine they are pretty free with them in war zones.

People who admit to doing illicit drugs will not get a security clearance, and that precludes you from serving, but who knows what the rule will be if the draft is revived.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I have known a few people who were not able to get in on the basis of having taken psych drugs. Some of them were able to try a different branch, and "forget" to mention the medications. Books written for young people interested in military service mention this problem too.

I also hear that the military is OK with Ritalin use as long as it is not after age 12.

In one of those books about antidepressants (a pro-drug book, I might add) most of the warnings about the drugs state that people who take it are barred from military service. With some drugs, you are only barred from certain duties.

If that's true about illegal drugs, I'd have no problem with my kids taking LSD a few times to get out of service. I knew someone who was trying to get into the navy seals and the forms said they accepted applicants who had "experimented with marijuana" but absolutely no other drugs. Again, it might depend on the branch or the duty.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Elphaba_
*People who admit to doing illicit drugs will not get a security clearance, and that precludes you from serving, but who knows what the rule will be if the draft is revived.*

If that holds up for a draft then it seems like an easy out. Just say that you smoked some pot and you don't have to serve? I can't recall the statistics right now but there are a heck of a lot of people who have tried marijuana...that would preclude LOTS of folks. hmm..


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

What about religious exemptions?
(It that the same as a CO?








: )

The draft is just crazy!







By 21, DH and I were married with a baby! What would they do, just break up familes and force moms away from thier babys and toddlers or what? I have a DS and a DD and no way are either of them going in a draft!

There has to be exemptions, right?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

no there aren't any examptions in the bill from serving. You can maybe get out of combat duty if they accept you as a CO but you still have to serve . But there is no school, marriage, children or gender exception. Women would be required also.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I need to clarify my post. I had 2 separate trains of thought and they crashed.

Admitting to illicit drug use generally will mean that you are rejected. However, they do background checks so the information you give them would have to gel with what they gather.
The other train of thought I was having was about security clearances. If you admit to a pattern of drinking and getting drunk, or of using any drugs at all, you will be denied a security clearance and thus kept out of a number of jobs. But they might still take you and stick you in some highly undesirable field.

If I had a draft-age child, I'd push them to volunteer and select a non-deployable, non-combat job.

Or I'd shoot their big toe off.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

((Disclaimer: I do not approve nor disapprove the use of marijuana, nor will I admit to ever having inhaled. You may take this post tongue-in-cheek, or you may go about your Marij-way..)

It's time to spark one up, ladies!










No Draft!


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

But be sure to take pictures or have other witnesses available to present to the draft board.

Or you could coach your children to talk about their homoerotic fantasies with the draft board. That would really go over well.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

well they are trying to get rid of don't ask don't tell and open the military up to GLBTQ so that mean claiming to be gay won't get you out. And the bill includes a civil service option so they still may make you serve stateside.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What if you sexually harrass people of your own gender? Won't they want to get rid of you then?

What if you're just plain not good at anything - can't hit the target, can't run very fast, can't do very many pushups - won't they see that you would not benefit them in any way?

I say the bedwetting is the way to go. Anyone can wet their bed.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

When I tried to sign up for the military (several years ago) they refused me because I had used an albuterol inhaler when I had bronchitis earlier that year.

It did make me wonder what the hell was in albuterol that made the military refuse people based on that.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What if you've been arrested? I also read in those recruiting books that they can't take anyone who has been arrested. But maybe you have to be convicted as well.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Nah..I don't think being arrested would keep you out. I guess it would depend on what you did.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My heart goes out to all of you mamas....every time I see the pictures of the soldiers who died (PBS news shows photos of fallen servicemen/women) my heart aches for their mothers and families. To have your loved one die over something so incredibly meaningless, fabricated....it's one thing if an army invades your country, it's quite another to lose them in some ridiculous excuse for a war like Iraq. I think I would do whatever necessary to keep my children out.

Fortunately, DH and I are Canadian and while DD has US citizenship b/c of being born here, she is also fully Canadian. If there were a draft, she would just have to stay out of the US while it's on. Canada would never ship a Canadian citizen to the US for a draft.

And I'm not actually sure if Canada would force a US citizen to return IF that person was legally allowed to live in Canada (go NAFTA!).


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

This is probably something I should know, but what did the draft-dodgers of previous generations do? Weren't there people who just refused to go?

Wouldn't there just be a bunch of people burning their papers and refusing to go again?
I don't know what the consequences would be...

I honestly can't imagine the government needing that many people to serve! Wow- everyone of age! Where are they going to put them all?!
You wouldn't even think the government would want everyone... not every single person is all that smart or useful, yk?


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## Joyce in the mts. (Jan 12, 2003)

I really wonder if we could find a way to create sort of an underground railroad for getting draftable kids out...they can't have mine. It'll be over my dead body and I MEAN that with all my heart. All of mine are draftable.

Vote the warmongers out and make sure others do too! We can't just be scared now...we have to think and we have to act. Our kids deserve more than our fear and our giving up. There HAS to be a way to protect the kids.

Joyce in the mts.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Joyce in the mts._
*...Vote the warmongers out and make sure others do too! We can't just be scared now...we have to think and we have to act. Our kids deserve more than our fear and our giving up. There HAS to be a way to protect the kids...*
I agree with you about voting. Because if there is a draft, there will be no way to "protect the kids." Somebody's child will be going. As I said, if my son wanted to avoid the draft, I would help him. But I would also spend the rest of my life wondering if the kid who went in his place made it back home alive.

The single, largest thing going against the draft is that the military is so set against it. After that, I think letting your representatives that if they vote for a draft, you'll not be voting for them can be a very powerful motivating factor in keeping the draft at bay (at least for awhile)


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## Joyce in the mts. (Jan 12, 2003)

Here's an article from Reuters:

http://news.excite.com/top/article/id/397845|top|04-16-2004::14:49|reuters.html

Joyce in the mts.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, if Korea or Iran or a score of other countries need our attention, a draft will be something the military WILL turn to.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marg of Arabia_
*Well, if Korea or Iran or a score of other countries need our attention, a draft will be something the military WILL turn to.*
That's true. But it's not something they want to do. At all. Right now they have an entirely volutneer, professional military. Even with that, the military has enough problems with morale and discipline, they absolutely do not want to add people who do not want to be there to the mix.

Add onto that the fact that support for the situation in Iraq is getting lower by the day and GWB would probably rather try to get back into Yale on his own merit than call up a draft. A draft would be the end of his career and he wants very badly to be re-elected.

With both the military and the general public set against it, it's going to be a very tough sell. It could happen, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

Don't freak out yet. At the moment in my area (which strangely enough is very liberal there are wait lists for the Marines and enlistment in all areas is up) It took my brother about one year to get into Basic Training for the Marines after he signed up.

Side-note: having family members in the military does not mean that I support the draft etc. I have huge issues with it in any circumstance. I sure as hell do not want people who have not chosen to be there serving along with my family. They have enough to worry about as it is.

I think the best thing to do is to wait until it happens (if it does) All of the exemptions etc will be listed, I am sure with some creative finagling you could get out of the draft. It may not be fun but I am sure it can be done.

My father was a war protester during Vietnam and had lots of draft dodging plans. An allergy to grass (not the "fun" kind) gets you out of almost everything or volunteer for laundry.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

pugmadmama,
I hope you are right.

Lula,

Thanks for the comforting post


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

When - NOT IF - the draft is reinstated, it will look very different from what you all are thinking about.

What is coming is mandatory national service, not necessarily military.

Everyone spends two years either in the military, or doing some kind of "necessary" work.

And most people are going to eat it up with a spoon. Why? Because by the time it comes:

* we will have a generation that is so manifestly unready for adult life that the majority of Americans will think it's a pretty nifty idea, kinda like summer camp! With uniforms!

* the economy will be so thoroughly in the toilet that there will be pressure to keep people out of the job market

* it will be presented by politicians who are perceived to be the alternative to war-mongering Republicans, and will therefore be seen as the only alternative to mandatory universal military service - basically people will think of it as protection for theri daughters. Better two years of VISTA than combat.

If you think this is impossible, take a few minutes to think about how universal mandatory public schooling would have looked to someone a hundred and fifty years ago.


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## fyrflymommy (Jan 20, 2003)

j


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

"And most people are going to eat it up with a spoon. Why? Because by the time it comes:

* we will have a generation that is so manifestly unready for adult life that the majority of Americans will think it's a pretty nifty idea, kinda like summer camp! With uniforms!

* the economy will be so thoroughly in the toilet that there will be pressure to keep people out of the job market

* it will be presented by politicians who are perceived to be the alternative to war-mongering Republicans, and will therefore be seen as the only alternative to mandatory universal military service - basically people will think of it as protection for theri daughters. Better two years of VISTA than combat."

this reminds me of a movie i saw about communist china- and how all the city kids had to go spend at least a year (?) in the country doing odd jobs learning a trade- for the communist party...

our government sounds more and more UNdemocratic to me every day-

about GWB not wanting to instate the draft due to wanting to get elected...well i am SURE he will bide his time until he is reelected (horror of horrors-please dont happen!) to instate it...

this bill scares the hell out of me- i am only 23 and here i am about to have my 2nd (3rd) small child-
my question is- if they make all men and woman 18-26 go into service, is the government going to make a huge childcare program? because many of my friends who are parents are both (hubby and wife) in that age bracket- so even if one still is in america doing odd jobs for the military- where will their child go and who will pay for it? this will be a MAJOR problem- since our government hasnt had to ever do this. ill tell you what though if this is the case- i am SO signing up to be a teacher at one of the centers so i can stay with my kids.

there will have to be some exemptions/exclusions- there are simply too many people in that age bracket, and the military WILL NOT want alot of them! think of how out of shape and unpatriotic most kids that age are!! how would that help the military?

AND the military has to PAY you for being in it, correct? some sort of compinsation- at least food housing ect---well, where will that money come from? you taking away a bunch of tax money by putting those people on the governments payroll.....

sorry if this is rambling-


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Speaking completely hypothetically of course, because I don't even think I really believe this will happen anytime soon, if ever, mothers will be exempt. The military allows any woman who becomes pregnant to get out of the military with an honorable discharge upon the birth of her child, no questions asked.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Actually, I don't know if that applies to commisioned officers or only enlisted. Definitely enlisted, though.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by abimommy_
*When I tried to sign up for the military (several years ago) they refused me because I had used an albuterol inhaler when I had bronchitis earlier that year.

It did make me wonder what the hell was in albuterol that made the military refuse people based on that.*
Yes, three posts in a row from me.

The military no longer accepts anyone who has or has ever had asthma. Albuterol=asthma. It is stupid, I know. My husband is in the Air Force and was prescribed an albuterol inhaler a few months ago for some respiratory thing he had. It wasn't the albuterol itself. It might have just been that you had a stupid recruiter. Unfortunately, the things that will flag you for joining the military seem to vary significantly depending on which recruiting office you visit.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I tried to join once (when I was young and confused!) and realized I would not pass the physical, since I've never been able to do a chin-up. Would that be enough to keep someone away?

I've also used the inhaler-thingie for bronchitis.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

When - NOT IF - the draft is reinstated, it will look very different from what you all are thinking about.
First I've read the proposed bill as I'm sure many others posting on this thread have. We know about the proposed civilian service.

Second None of us know exactly what the draft will look like because there is no guarentee that it will pass as the bill was written.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I'm not talking about the proposed bill. I'm talking about something coming within the next thirty years, I'd say.

Within our lifetimes I am sad to say I expect to see national service in the US.

A lot of this thread has been focussed on what will get you out of military service - health issues, psychological issues, family status - that won't be relevant in a non-military service corps.

My experience has been many Americans, especially people with ties to Europe and Israel, are really happy to bandy the idea of national service around. It's kind of like how people bandy around the idea of parental licensure. They fail to recognize how such ideas are anathema to liberty and to a society founded on liberty.

One of the things that terrified me most about the current bill is THE LACK OF OUTRAGE and particularly the lack of outrage around the issue of breaking up childrearing families. In a sane society, 18-26yos are primarily concerned with getting married and raising children.

It is only on this board that I saw that issue more than barely addressed. Elsewhere people had a strong reaction against the idea of the military draft, but seemed to miss the larger nasitiness that the bill is rooted in - the idea that citizens owe service to the state.

Again, though, so many people have been brainwashed into believing that state has a right to their chidlren I guess it's not that surprising.

nak


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by urklemama_
*...but seemed to miss the larger nasitiness that the bill is rooted in - the idea that citizens owe service to the state...*
I'm not sure that idea is "nastiness". As has been said many times before, Capitalism killed Communism and now it's killing Democracy. This idea that we owe no one but ourselves is as disturbing to me as the idea of required national service. Capitalism has been a lot more successful at brainwashing people than the idea of public schooling will ever be. For example, I don't think our government would have been nearly as successful at shredding the saftey net for our most vulnerable citizens if our country were not locked into this "me, me, me" mindset.

I'm not convinced that national service is the right answer, but I'm also not going to completely dismiss it as "nastiness."

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the draft.


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## Annie (Feb 14, 2004)

If a couple are married and both in that age bracket, and have small children, would they draft both parents at the same time. Not everyone has family and friends they can leave their kids with for an extended period of time. Even if one parent is stateside it still would present a huge strain on teh family emotionally, financially. If both parents had to go at the same time and they had no one to leave them with would they make an exemption then. Would the govmt pay all that money for foster care?

I REALLY hope this doesnt go through. I have a 21 year old brother and a 24 year old sister. My husband has a 13 year old nephew. My MIL is in favor of the war and loves bush. I bet she wouldn't feel that way if she knew G.W. might get her grandson killed.


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

When I was young and confused I also tried to join the Army. (The army looked good, they visited my high school twice a year in grand style, flying in in copters and looking all cool). Anyway, they rejected me because I had RK surgery done on my eyes (now called Lasix I think). RK was an early form of Lasix, they used knives to correct my vision, now they use lasers. One of the best things in my life was to be rejected by the army


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## NotQuiteJuneCleaver (Mar 23, 2003)

I try to pass these discussions up these days because I just get pissed of and yell at my family but I am really angry that anyone still thinks voting is going to solve this - WE DIDN'T ELECT HIM THIS TIME. How easily it is forgotten. HE STOLE THE DAMN ELECTION. We cant hold a freakin election but we will run our noses up in everyone elses business. I am sorry if this gets me kicked out of here but I am still just at a loss as to how ANYONE can support this bastard administration. I AM SICK of all of it. Every report I hear of another death in Iraq I get physically ill. I hope all you who believe in hell are right - because George W. Bush as a place waiting for him. I feel about GWB like I would have told you I could not feel about another human being. And when someone defends him I border on getting crazy on them. I got in a round yesterday at the post office with a clerk, who wanted to rag on me about a peace pin I was wearing. I will be willing to bet he won't do it again. I didn't know I was capable of such anger so quickly. I am not usually so unable to hold my tongue. But crap. I just can't believe I am alone. This level of anger scares me on a personal level..considering I am a peace activist, but the killing HAS TO STOP.

But on topic. My children will not be "serving" this country in any military capacity. Jail would be better. At least they might have a fighting chance. And wouldn't be asked to kill another human being because of oil.

Peace is a choice. I have nothing to say that hasn't been said. But six months ago I would have told you I was as pissed as I had ever been in my life. That was nothing to how I feel now.

Thanks for letting me vent. My poor husband is tiring of my outbursts.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by liz-hippymom_
*this bill scares the hell out of me*
I asked this question a few pages back, but I don't know if anyone saw this.

Is there a new bill about mandatory national service? There was one submitted when Iraq invasion first started by a Democrat senator trying to make a point, but it didn't go anywhere. Is this the same bill you all are talking about, or is there something different?


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## NotQuiteJuneCleaver (Mar 23, 2003)

P.S. I said all that NOT to say I wasn't voting. I AM but I just afraid it won't count AGAIN. See how easy it was the first time...they say crimes get easier the more you practice.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I'm so glad my dh is too old to serve. I'm not, though. I guess I'll just have to fall back on being incompetent.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I guess I'll just have to fall back on being incompetent.








:







:







:







:







:

As a military wife, this tickled me. You would not believe the flipping idiots my husband has worked with. Seriously. You should be afraid, very afraid.

Greaseball, OT here, but your family is going to stay in Oregon for the foreseeable future right? I told my husband today that when he gets out of the Army I want to live in Portland. We can be pals!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

T
Yep, we love Oregon and hope we can stay!


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

that has the proposed bill in full?
I have a mama whose son will be 18 in a few months and mine will be 18 next march ...


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

On going to Canada- if you were a US citizen who already went to Canada to get a job (before the kids were draft age) would the children be exempt?

Just curious.


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

If they reinstate the draft it might not be such a bad thing. Perhaps then we would be less likely to march off to war every time the president needs a bump in his poll numbers. People might actually give a sh*t if there was a chance their own children might be put in harm's way. As long as the U.S. fights its wars with soldiers primarily drawn from the poorer, less educated classes, most Americans will have no objection to slaughtering people of other nations.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

HB, I disagree. That didn't work in Viet Nam.


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

HB, I disagree. That didn't work in Viet Nam.
I had hoped that we had learned some thing from that experience, but I'm probably just being terminally naive again.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

You wouldn't even think the government would want everyone... not every single person is all that smart or useful, yk?
They don't need everyone to be smart and useful. The not smart, not useful ones will be the first ones on the front lines to die. Targets for the enemies bullets, ya know.....


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I wish we'd learned something from Viet Nam. Every day I watch this war and I wonder.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

I suppose I like to think my son is safe because he is autistic.

But for those of you asking if there are exemptions...

read some history, and quickly. Any nation will do. War eats young men, and women, and eventually what happens when leaders keep sacrificing our babies to it is that in order to 'protect' us they take ten year olds, and sixty year olds, crippled, mentally challenged, disabled.

It can happen to you.


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

When did it happen that women were eligible to be drafted? Was this something that happened/was enforced after Desert Storm?

Not trying to be dense, I just don't remember having to sign up for anything when I was 18. ('92/'93)


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

Dude, I'm so glad I'm fat. They wouldn't take me!

But my sweet, skinny dh is only 25!

And my darling daughter does not need to serve in a war unless it is her choice









Drafts are awful


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

When did it happen that women were eligible to be drafted? Was this something that happened/was enforced after Desert Storm?
Not trying to be dense, I just don't remember having to sign up for anything when I was 18. ('92/'93)
It hasn't been reinstated yet. It has been amended to include women. It is pending legislation. It MAY pass. If it does, you will have to sign up and possibly serve your two years if you are between the ages of 18-26.

That is why it is important to know about it so you can fight it. Write to your congress people and let them know you are against it. Right now they are quietly preparing to reinstate the draft. They have already been hiring draft staff. Keeping it all hush, hush. Wouldn't want anyone to know about it untill after the elections.....


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

well, as a community we could hide those being threated with the draft. or send them to relatives in a different country. i would send ds to nicaragua. but i would also offer my home to any mother who wanted to hide her son or daughter from a forced draft.

my father avoided vietnam by saying he was gay.

ds will be 18 in feb of 2008. maybe the war will be over by then.

until then pray for peace


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

ds will be 18 in feb of 2008. maybe the war will be over by then.
Well aren't you lucky!

My first born turns 18 in a little over two years. I am not as lucky as you.


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

I read somewhere a few months ago that this whole draft thing was an urban legand, and if you look it up online a ton of sites say it is also. Has something changed? Does anyone know the house bill that can be looked up online and read? I mean it wouldn't surprise me if it were true, but I know I've read that it was just an urban legand...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I think that the likelihood of a draft anytime in the near future is rather slim. The Air Force just announced that they have 30,000 more Airmen (enlisted members) than they need and they are no longer retraining recruits who do not pass their training classes. They will be kicked out from now on. Troops are being extended longer in Iraq and Afghanistan not because there are no troops to replace them, but because they are not trained and it simply cost too much money to rotate them. Also, the situation in both of these places is very precarious right now. You do not withdraw trained troops who are familiar with the country and the mission and replace them with poorly trained, inexperienced troops.

As long as we have an economy as sorry as this one where there is such a huge divide between the haves and the have nots, you will have plenty of people willing to sign up to join the military, even when that means going to war. The poor have always born the burden of war throughout history, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm not categorically opposed to a draft and I'm certainly not opposed to mandatory national service of some kind. I doubt there would have been as much of an outcry against Vietnam if it had not been for the draft. Many people only care when it affects them, personally.

But I just don't see it happening. The military cannot afford to train and retrain the troops they already have. The military, as an entity, is opposed to a draft. Volunteer forces are, in most cases, far superior to those that draft soldiers (Israel being a notable exception). I tend to think of this issue as a red herring-- we have hundreds of thousands of REAL LIVE TROOPS, not hypothetical ones, already in danger. I'm far more concerned about them than I am the possibility of a draft.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i'm picking up hostility in your two most recent posts to me. In this thread and another one. i don't know what i've done to offend you , or rather posted to offend you.

you need to cool it.

peace , jannan


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*i'm picking up hostility in your two most recent posts to me. In this thread and another one. i don't know what i've done to offend you , or rather posted to offend you.

you need to cool it.

peace , jannan







*
Are you talking to me? Because I can't even specifically remember anything you've ever posted. This is the first time I've even taken note of your username.

I'm going to assume for the time-being that you are not talking to me because I can't see anything in my post that could be construed as even the slightest bit hostile.

***Not deleting the post because I don't want to "change history", but I see now that you weren't talking to me. At least, I don't think. Back to your regularly scheduled thread."***


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## fluffernutter (Dec 8, 2002)

My daughter is far from being 18 (she's got 16 years to go!). I on the other hand am 22. I DO NOT want to go to war. I DO NOT want to serve in the military. This draft thing has me a bit worried.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

No, she is talking to me!









I have trouble "cooling it" these days. I am so pissed.

Sorry for the hostility! I am at about a 9 on the tension scale lately!









Peace to you! jannan!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I'm reading this thread and all the sudden I feel good about the fact:

My daughter has polydactyly and can't be drafted.

My middle son has FAE. is bipolar, has asthma and on medication.

My youngest also has asthma.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

DH and I are both over the age of 26. My only child isn't even 2 years old yet - a long way from 18. But, still I am opposed to the draft. NO ONE should be forced into service. NO ONE should be forced into war. NO ONE should be forced to fight for ANY country.
If it has come to the point that we need a draft in order to get soldiers, we need to reconsider what we're doing. I believe that people will fight for causes they believe in. If this country was directly under attack, I would consider fighting to defend it. I don't believe in going to other places to fight their battles. There are always exceptions to that rule, but I continue to believe it is not the responsibility of this country and it's troops to act as the world police. If the military is in over their heads, then our government needs to learn to butt out of other peoples business. If the military is doing fine with its current numbers, then why is a draft even being considered?
I am also opposed to national service of any kind. I was opposed to forced "volunteer" hours for high school graduation (I graduated before it was instated, thankfully). I believe firmly in the freedom of choice. That include CHOOSING to volunteer, if that floats your boat. CHOOSING to serve your country in whatever method you desire (within the law). Military service, national service, volunteer hours, whatever - all should be a CHOICE. An informed choice.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

yr old son can't be drafted due to asthma???

And my 7 yr old has autism and asthma
so only my 11 and 5 yr would someday be affected?
Along with my cousin and her dh who have two new ones -nuh uh not acceptable
it should remain CHOICE MPO
again can anyone please give me the link with the text of the bill?


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

I am slowly but surely becomming addicted to this board, so you'll have to excuse my newness.
As a military wife, I just had to say this....
I am so completely opposed to instituting a draft.
In a combat situation, they tell you that you are personally responsible for the people on your right and left. Personally responsible. My dh joined the military because he was willing to take on that responsibility. I HAVE to know that the people on either side of him are willing to take on that responsibility, too.
The person next to my dh would be responsible for protecting his life. I want that person to WANT to be there...I don't want him or her to be forced to be there. I want them to WANT to protect my dh...I don't want them to do it half-ass because someone told them they had to.


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

Well said lotusdebi, those are exactly my feelings if my pregnant brain would let me put them into words like you did


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## RowansDad (Mar 27, 2002)

Charlie Rangel's bill is here:
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdqu...umm2=m&#status

Fritz Hollin's version in the Senate is here:
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN00089:

Note that the most recent action on these bills was BEFORE the war...that's last year folks.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by Dragonfly*
... I asked this question a few pages back, but I don't know if anyone saw this ... Is there a new bill about mandatory national service? There was one submitted when Iraq invasion first started by a Democrat senator trying to make a point, but it didn't go anywhere. Is this the same bill you all are talking about, or is there something different?_










I saw both your posts, Dragonfly, and was wondering the same thing since the start of this thread. Reread the thread twice looking to see if anyone responded to you.










I'll happily respond ... since everyone seems to be all worried-like and not looking at the situation of Mr. Rangel's bill as it is.










Charlie Rangel is a Democratic congressman from upper Manhattan, aka Harlem, in NYC, NY. He is not known for his right-wing rah-rah conservative views, folks. Not even close.

And you're right, Dragonfly, he did back it as a way to make a point. From my understanding, the point was that as the military stands now, minorities are the ones fighting&dying in greater numbers. The only way to level the playing field (or the killing field







) is with a no-exemptions draft.

Hence his bill.

Really, I don't think this was meant to go anywhere. And it won't. IMNSVHO.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Just saw RD's link to Fritz Holling's version. Will read it forthwith & see if there's something different to say from my previous post ...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Thanks for responding, Amy. I'd given up hope so it was a pleasant surprise.









I'm relieved to see they are the same old bills.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

I don't want a draft either. Dh is already in the army, I wonder if that exemps me because we have small kids? I know they won't let me volunteer for that reason. Like someone else mentioned already, I want people who want to do this job working with my dh, it's for the safety and benefit of everyone involved.

I have read all of the pps and if you have asthma I think they don't want you but not positive on that. Most serious or chronic medical conditions might help get you out of combat but not necessarily a desk job, depends. I'm not possitive on the whole list of stuff that exempts you from volunteer or if it will even apply to a draft.

I know the military doesn't want any volunteers with tattoes on the face, hands, or anywhere that will show if you are in uniform, are a know illegal drug user, a convicted felon (but if you were just arrested and not charged with anything they want to know about it but won't exclude you) and certain medical things.

And a little tip, if you want to try and 'prove' your drug use either take polaroid or digital pics you print yourself. I know someone who took pics of himself taking hits off a bong and developed them at a pharmacy and got busted because they turned his pics into the cops. Totally OT but don't use counterfeit 20's at McDonald's either they check them...yeah I went to hs with some real characters :LOL.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

The Pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign to fill all 10,350 draft board positions and 11,070 appeals board slots nationwide.. Though this is an unpopular election year topic, military experts and influential members of Congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan [and a permanent state of war on "terrorism"] proves accurate, the U.S. may have no choice but to draft.
http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/n.../01/105146.php

Quote:

I'm relieved to see they are the same old bills.
Dragonfly,

I wouldn't feel too relieved if I were you!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

here is the link to the content of Hollings

http://congress.org/c2/issues/bills/...=108&size=full


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Along the lines of reasons you can't serve....
Some food allergy related diseases can get you non-listed, too.
My children and I have Celiac Disease (we have to eat a gluten-free diet) and that knocks all of us out. Something about not being able to provide gluten-free meals in the field.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)




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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by grnbn76_
*Along the lines of reasons you can't serve....
Some food allergy related diseases can get you non-listed, too.
My children and I have Celiac Disease (we have to eat a gluten-free diet) and that knocks all of us out. Something about not being able to provide gluten-free meals in the field.*
Really? I have celiac disease and am pretty sure ds does, but I haven't had him tested yet. There's a posible out for us.


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## Annie (Feb 14, 2004)

My DH is only 5'9 and i'm only 4'8. Was thinking our kids would be short like us and hoping that would exempt them. Most of the women in my fam are under 5'4" too so would that help my sis?

This totally freaks me out! Reminds me of a bad sci-fi show i watched once..well the show itself, 'Starship Troopers' was good, i didnt like the 'service guarrantees citizenship' stuff and was thinking 'well thank god we live in a free democratic society! Ironic huh?.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I'm 5'1" and was never told that would keep me out of the military back when I was trying to join. I even spent a year in the police academy. Height was never an issue.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Dh is 5'8 but he swears he used to be 5'10 but he used to jump out of airplanes a lot and I do think that compressed his spine enough to make it seem like he 'shrunk'. I do recall him being a bit taller before..

Anyway my point is he is 'average' height and not exempt from being in the military and he works with some very short guys and average (5'4") height women are in the military. I have heard if you are under 5'8 you can't be an MP but I don't know for sure if that is true.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Anyone else see Matt Lauer interviewing Senators Biden and Hagel about reinstating the draft??

They both thought it may happen. I don't know about you but when I see this being discussed on "The Today Show" I really start to worry.....


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

I'm a mother of 2, age 24. Dh is a father of 2, age 25. This isn't only about our children--it's about our childrens parents too. Which I'm sure has been said before here, but it all makes me want to scream.
How likely is this? No one talks about this irl.
I HATE Bush. HATE him.
Sorry, I know most of you feel the same way.










Do they still have the flat feet exemption?


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## Joyce in the mts. (Jan 12, 2003)

I know that some moms here are within the age parameters of the bill around the matter of a possible draft, or your spouses are. I feel for you, and I don't want you to be caught up in something you didn't start....I wish the troops were home and I wish that we could all wake up from this nightmare. I also know that others feel that if a draft comes up the kids should just do what's right and serve. I honor that feeling also, though I totally disagree with it. Others feel scared even though their kids will not, within this next year be within the age parameters at all, and I support you all in your concerns.

ALL of my 3 kids are CURRENTLY within the age parameters spoken of. I also know that there will be if not already in place, treaties that will likely make Canada AND Mexico hostile to anyone seeking sanctuary from a draft should one be activated.

I am beside myself with worry and fear over this. Others around me have been telling me to stop worrying; that a draft will never happen. Well I believe it just might happen and that if it does, that it will happen whether there is a Republican or a Dem in the Oval Office. It is only meant to be ready, according to what I have read, perhaps by Spring 2005. Am I mistaken on that? If I am...sorry but if I am not, well, let's see...my youngest will be just about 20, my middle kid will be 22 and my oldest will be going on 25. All eligible as far as I can see right now.

I want to find a way out for my kids. None are college kids, none have special skills and have been just beginning to find themselves in life. My daughter is just beginning a life with her boyfriend...and he is just 21 now, so there's another one! I just cannot describe to you how this fear feels to me.

Seems there is no way out. And I just sit here and watch things get worse, more soldiers get killed...more local guys come home in boxes. And I feel so helpless...

I raised my kids, to be gentle people. My oldest was always so big for his age, that sometimes even as a toddler, in play with others, sometimes he would hurt them unintentionally. I had to teach him to understand and to be even more gentle with smaller kids, even though he was the same age. Even when threatened by someone with physical harm, in high school, and it was a serious situation, he went to the principal to mediate. He has never lashed out, he has never harmed anyone. He has had anxiety attacks since a young friend was killed by a drunk driver, as he would normally have been in that car too, but for some reason was not that night.

I just had to express my feelings about this; am now crying so I better go. I feel angry, I feel helpless and I feel very very frightened, about all this. I don't see any answers and I wonder about those who cannot get out of this country...I don't know how I am going to protect my kids. I don't feel voting Bush out will be enough anymore.

Joyce in the mts.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Joyce


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

s Joyce, I don't think I have said it before but even if I did I will again...I love your posts







. You just have this way with words and I can kinda 'feel' how you are feeling when I read what you typed. I hope the draft doesn't get reinstated but if it does I pray for your family!


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

As far as height requirements, there are limits both upper and lower, but they're pretty extreme. My dh has had CSMs who were more than a foot shorter than him (he's 6 ft 3) and there have been a FEW (not many) taller than him. Being very tall will keep you out of submarines and airplanes, and possibly tanks (though my husband is now a tanker so that didn't work for him) but short people are all over the place. I can't even count all the tiny little Marines I've met. Must be a macho thing for the short men.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Elphaba_
*I can't even count all the tiny little Marines I've met. Must be a macho thing for the short men.*
No kidding!


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Joyce, you are so awesome! I wish I could hug you in the flesh!


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

I am with you all on the fear, outrage, disbelief, and every other emotion that surfaces with this topic. And I wanted to take the discussion a step further- hopefully not too OT.

In topics like this, I need to look at the bigger picture. While some might think that a draft gets people more personally involved, I think that needs to happen *way* before a draft. We need to get beyond voting. I feel like so much of the f***ed up stuff that happens in this country is because we are all too busy, too strapped, struggling, and otherwise occupied to get involved in government and civic matters the way we need to to make a difference. This is not to discount so many of you who are activists- active ones! But there aren't enough! I care about politics and social issues and it bugs me how little i do beyond voting. I can hardly find the time to read the newspaper so I listen to NPR or other public radio- but write letters? call representatives? I need to get off my butt. One of the California Peace Action folks came around to my door one night, and in her spiel told me that a congressperson considers 10 letters equal to one vote. 10 letters! Thats nothing! Can you imagine if people wrote even one letter a month, what a difference that would make? I do believe that being active in this way sends a huge message to elected reps. They depend on votes. when their voters get active, they tend to respond. \and imagine if even 90% of the country voted! Rigged elections aside, too much happens by too few people.

anyway, I just wanted to put that thought out there. Ok, i'm firing myself up now. Maybe we could start a letter thread- finding the issues that really need the letters and encouraging one another to write them and give the info. Cause I'll admit it, it gets put on my "when I have a free moment" list and... well, we all know what happens to those moments.

ok, that's my rant. thanks for reading...


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

Why don't you all just talk to some people in your own families and ask how they avoided the draft? Many immigrant came to this country to avoid the draft in their native lands.

In the book, The Class of 1965, which was also a television series for a while, there are stories about how some upper class young men avoided or tried to avoid military service during the Vietnam Conflict during which there was a draft and a lottery on the floor of Congress.

I do not think Mexico and Canada will cooperate as they did before; NAFTA has lots of agreements between the US/Mexico/Canada which did not exist before. I know that NAFTA is supposed to be a free trade agreement, but there are things in there that allows for lots of things between the three that did not exist forty years ago. The thing is over 10,000 pages long; no one has really read it through.

Lots of surprises to come.


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## carrots (Mar 1, 2003)

oh my goodness, i just found this post. i feel so naive. i had no idea this was a possibility. my children are all under four, but my goodness, my heart just breaks with the possibilities.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

During WWI, there were dozens of Supreme Court cases that demanded that the court recognize that the drafting of young men into the armed services against their wishes and forcing them onto the theatre of war was a violation of the Thirteenth Amendment's prohibition against forced servitude.

The Supreme Court never agreed. All through the Civil War, the wealthy paid others, mainly poor Irish immigrants, to take their place on the front lines. In the novel and movie, Gone With The Wind, Rhett Butler was one of these wealthy people, in his case a rum runner, who paid others to take his place in the military of the South.

In the Medieval Times, the Earl, Duke, or local nobelman whose interests were at stake, would take his band of supporters and battle it out on the landscape to decide the question of the day.

The local peasants would pack a lunch, go out and watch the excitement. At least in this case, the people whose interests were at stake were out putting their life on the line.

Imagine if Bush and his band of supporters went out to seek the Al Quaida or climbing the mountains of Afganistan in search of Bin Ladin....I'd pack a lunch and watch that ... that's entertainment!

Unfortunately, it is our sons and now daughters whose young undecided lives are on the line, with Bush at home cutting their future benefits in every way possible and imagineable.... that's unfair!







:








:








:


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

but what did the draft-dodgers of previous generations do? Weren't there people who just refused to go?
Yes, there were, and they went to jail. I am 24, my dh is 23 but we WILL NOT go to war. They would have to lock us up if they so choose.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

irrefutable proof and reasoning on why they are turning away people that ever used albuterol.


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Quote:

I know the military doesn't want any volunteers with tattoes on the face, hands, or anywhere that will show if you are in uniform
Is this a newer thing? My dad has his name tattooed across his one hand, large, dark and noticeable. He was sent to Vietnam as quick as they could get him over there.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It was maybe five years ago when the AF released their new policy on tattoos. They were paying for people to have them removed, and now new recruits have to have them removed before basic. I don't know if the military pays for that. A tattoo cannot cover more than a quarter of any body part and none can be showing in uniform, I think.


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Thanks for the information, Mothra.


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