# Nourishing Traditions debates



## AmyMN (Sep 21, 2002)

Please use this thread for debates about _Nourishing Traditions_ by Sally Fallon.

Here is the location for Nourishing Traditions _support_ (for those that are trying to follow the concept in the book):
http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...5&goto=newpost

* _Nourishing Traditions_ by Sally Fallon
* _Nutrition and Physical Degeneration_ by Weston A. Price http://www.westonaprice.org.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Firstly, I've not read the book as I have not been able to get my hands on a copy & I have been a vegetarian for over 20 years. I did used to live in a country with very icky unenvironmentally sound farming practises, so I became a vege orignally as a teenager for animal rights issues. There wasn't really any available organic meat that had been humanely raised & killed at the time. I recently met a lady with a very small organic dairy herd who produces raw milk who recommended I read this book. I looked on the net & stumbled across the support thread. I'm a bit scattered today as my little dd woke up about 10 times last night so hopefully this will all make sense.

I'm very interested in the idea of ethnic eating ie you eat a diet more closely related to your ancestors. Being primarily of sea coast ancestry myself, I was extremely fascinated in the quote :

"Desaturase enzyme deficiencies are usually present in those people of Innuit, Scandinavian, Northern European, and sea coast ancestry. They lack the ability to convert alpha-linolenic acid into EPA and DHA, two omega-3 fatty acids intimately involved in the function of the immune and nervous systems. The reason for this is because these people's ancestors got an abundance of EPA and DHA from the large amounts of cold-water fish they ate. Over time, because of non-use, they lost the ability to manufacture the necessary enzymes to create EPA and DHA in their bodies. For these people, vegetarianism is simply not possible. They MUST get their EPA and DHA from food and EPA is only found in animal foods. DHA is present in some algae, but the amounts are much lower than in fish oils. "

The idea of eating all those fats & animal products makes sense in the context it has been put there, but then so does vegetarianism in articles arguing for it too. I would guess tho', that in the past, our ancestors lived in way harder circumstances. Like they were always way colder than us, they worked physically harder, had to get thru periods of less food so needed extra fat.

My big problem with the whole meat & fats thing is I really don't like the idea of meat still. Like I can get organic, humanely raised meat, but to me it is still a bit akin to the idea of eating the pet cat or dog. The whole problem with growing up in a big city is the only farm animals you see are cute & a treat to look at. Meat always used to come in a package in the super market. I never even saw stock trucks going to the meat works.

I do like raw butter & raw milk tastes OK. I made some raw cream pumpkin icecream with maple syrup the other day which was yummy. However I find dairy products make me very bunged up in the sinuses & (







! ) I actually prefer the taste of soy milk. I know that homogenised milk is really deadly & I am also aware of the whole transfatty acids issue in marg so don;t touch that with a barge pole either.

I noticed there was no mention of dairy allergies or that I read on her web site anyways. Not sure how that would fit in with the whole eating plan.

I would say the proof is in the pudding - so to speak & would be very interested to hear from any Mamas who eat this way & the differences they have noticed in their families health.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

To me NT is just a cookbook , keep in mind I am a chapter leader for WAP (therefore I'm probably biased slightly towards NT even though I don't like it's tone etc..) and think NT has some sound ideas but IMO everyone needs to find what works for them.
Sally is of Swiss ancestry, the raw cow dairy works for her.

I was a vegan for over 12 years ( vegetarian for 23 years) and was introdiced to the NT cookbook back when it first came out (over 8 years now.)

My first 2 children were raised vegan macrobiotic for 3 1/2 years (they're twins) and did have some problems (teeth starting to get caries, small stature and constant ilness- flus, fevers, colds etc..)

We added fish to their diet and then added some butter and small amounts of egg sin things. It didn't help much.

Then I got pregnant and switched to a different diet( lower grain, raw butter, grass fed meats etc..) and my son born of that pregnancy has a very different constitution than my first two (even though the twins were larger at birth than he was etc..) he never cried, complained of teething , got sick etc.. Same with my next child (a daughter) who again has a very different consitution (wider face, solid bone structure, wide palate etc..)

A diet based on grass fed vegetables and meats (I prefer to eat meat over fish because of the toxins in fish) and small amounts of raw butter and X factor butter oil is right for me (I do eat raw goat yogurt too now that I'm pregnant again) and this kind of diet also works well for my family.

My children don't drink milk (never have) but do eat small amounts of raw cheeses (cow, sheep and goat) and they do eat grains.

My bottom line opinion on ANY diet is that you have to find what wirks for you.
In the past 8 years I've experimented with various forms of paleo eating and have found that I need some dairy (I'm Swedish) but can only tolerate it in it's raw form and with that I can't even tolerate raw cow dairy, cultured or not (kefir, yogurt, milk) but do fine with some raw cow butter and butter oil.


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## Mothernature (Jun 10, 2002)

I have experimented with the NT diet as well. It makes intellectual sense to me, but after eating vege for 13 years, it is difficult to digest (pun intended.) I feel overly bloaty and heavy after eating all the meat and dairy. I notice my dh and dd get overly mucousy even with raw milk, raw butter, raw yogurt, etc. I have a better tolerance for dairy than dh, but I really don't like the way this diet makes me feel.

Some of Sally Fallon's arguments about soy are also a stretch for me to buy into. She refutes the use of soy among Asians which is simply not true. What she actually says is that the use of soy among asians is far less than the soy industry would have you believe and that they ferment any soy they use. When I was in Asia, they liberally used tofu, edamame, and numerous other soy products. They also consumed lots of fish but other meat was limited or rare. I didn't think her research was complete. She does appeal to my suspicions of large group-biased research (of which she accuses the soy industry) and yet the WAP site has raw milk ads and organic farming support. In that way it slants her research too. I live in OK and if you don't think the cattle industry is big $$$$ think again.

The next part of the NT diet that I run into a snag with is the planning and preparation. I just can't seem to make myself plan a menu 2 weeks ahead of time to get the grains soaked and the vegetables fermented and all the other pre-prep work she requires. I'm doing well to know what I want for supper tonight and even that may change by 6:00. I'm pregnant and my almost 3yo and I can be quite fickle about what sounds good to eat at any given meal.

I have tried to apply the concepts that make the most sense to me and require the least amount of pre-planning. I like making my own butter and yogurt. I can get raw milk pretty easily so that's not a big change either. The eggs we eat come from a local farm that treats the chickens humanely and they are able to eat insects as well as seeds and grains. I prepare wild-caught salmon about once a week (BIL went on an Alaskan fishing trip and doesn't like fish so lucky us.) I buy organic vegetables and fruits as much as possible and eat lots of raw foods. I do not regularly include a fermented vegetable to aid digestion and I don't want to spend my entire life in the kitchen. I want my dc to get to know me as a person, not a cook who slaves away in the kitchen.

As far as ethnecity goes, I would be interested to know more about my roots to see whether I should be eating more fish for the EPA and DHA. I am not a tall person nor do I come from a family of tall people. We are rather petite and small boned. We have fairly good teeth, although I had many carries as a child. My family of origin serves the meat and two sides kinds of meals or large pot dishes like stew, chili, spaghetti, or brothy soups so I would have to blame the carries on refined sugar and flour if I'm reading WAP correctly. It was such a struggle to become vege in the first place with my family, that I'm reluctant to throw all that away because of NT and the WAP book. My dh comes from a family of Seventh Day Adventists and they eat a primarily vege diet. He has grown up with the concept that vege is the most healthy way to eat. It is difficult for him to wrap his brain around meat eating as a healthy alternative. I think vege works well for him. The healthiest and happiest we've ever been was when we were eating vege.

I guess I agree with elanie that you should just take what works for your own family and leave the rest. (Oh BTW, after 1 year of eating only from the NT cookbook I went in for a dental appt. and they found the first new cavity in over 15 years.







)


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I think I have read NT fairly throughly and I didn't see that it said anywhere that one must eat dairy for good health, only that if you tolerate it, it'd be a really good idea to use it since it's an excellent source of nutrients. I really don't think she argues for any specific ratios of meat/veggies/grains/fermented foods/raw foods etc. There's a section on food allergies. I think Sally is well aware of the fact that people differ greatly in their ability to digest certain foods.

IMO, it's not very time-consuming to make fermented vegetables. I don't use meal-planning either (or just a little), and NT works for me. It's so easy making stock when all you do is let it simmer while doing other things.

Mothernature- what Asian country did you visit? What other soy products were used that you noticed? Did you primarily visit with city folks or country people?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I have been reading the Weston A. Price website, mainly because people here link to it often. I have read many of the articles on the site, but have not read the books.

The eating for ethnicity idea does not make sense to me. I think most people today are descended from ancestors who lived in more than one kind of climate. Even the so-called "native peoples" or "primitives" were not all descendants of "natives."

The fact that the NT group is nearly alone in proclaiming that a high fat diet is good makes me suspicious. How about this line of reasoning

Quote:

Saturated fats do not cause heart disease. In fact, saturated fats are the preferred food for the heart. Your body makes saturated fats out of carbohydrates.
eh? how's that? Of course our bodies make saturated fat out of carbohydrates, our bodies make saturated fat every time we have a caloric surplus--because all animal fat is saturated.

Even if you say, "Well, okay, I can somehow accept that one can only get vitamin A from animal food" why would that mean that a heavy consumption of animal food would be necessary? (Though it is totally illogical--according to their arguments, you could have a carrot salad dressed with olive oil and be just fine) Particularly the idea that one should consume raw liver seems insane. Isn't the liver the organ that cleans toxins from the blood? Yes, it's very nutritious, but it's also crammed with scary goo! (In fact, at least one of the WAP site articles was written by someone who ate raw liver and contracted hepatitis!)

Also, foods high in vitamin D: can't we synthesize vitamin D from sunlight? Also, the false juxtaposition of butter and margarine annoys me: I don't think any nutritionists are continuing to promote margarine.

The idea that refined foods lack vital nutrients makes sense, but of course that's not an idea unique to the NT people. Ditto fermented foods.

these folks remind me a lot of the macrobiotic people, creating false oppositions between their own style of eating and the most refined, gross, disgusting foods of modernity. I bought a macrobiotic cookbook by Aveline Kushi, in which a lovely macrobiotic dinner is contrasted to microwaved food eaten with plastic utensils while driving in a car! The NT people contrast a diet of buttered vegetables and a nicely marbled steak with a diet of Snackwells, margarine and baked potato chips.

I'm going to go microwave my margarine now, catch you later.


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## bebe luna (Nov 20, 2001)

I also must disagree w/ the soy aspect of her book~
Although I have not traveled Asia, I have worked closely w/ several communities of Asian people who came here directly from China, Japan, and Thailand... they all cooked and ate very traditionally, and similarily as they would have in their home countries. Each of these groups ate large amounts of tofu and soy sauces. The Japanese also ate large amounts of tempeh, miso, and edamame, the Chinese ate fermented black soy beans and soy milks.
As a former student and current practioner of Chinese Medicine, including Chinese Dietary Therapies (food as medicine) I have read countless Chinese cookbooks and medicinal recipes including soy in many meals.
My cousin spent extensive time in both Korea and Japan and reported that both ate soy very frequently. My uncle recently returned from living in rural vietnam for a year and also reports that soy is a common food in their meals.
The difference with Asia's use of soy and Americas, is that in America we have over-processed the soy for use in protien bars, soy drinks, vegi burgers, fake meats, protien powders, ice creams, etc... in Asia soy is used either as the whole bean or fermented, such as tempeh, tofu, and miso.
I do agree that raw and fermented dairy is the best way to consume dairy if you so choose to eat dairy. I lived and worked on an organic farm for several years. We made our own cheeses, yogurts, and butters from the milk our cows and goats provided. The milk was always raw and we always made the products through a culturing processed. That was the only time in my life that I could eat dairy freely without suffering from digestive complaints, nasal congestion, and impaired health.
I am of European descent (Irish and German). I have tried being vegetarian and vegan. I felt extremly depleted on both diets, even though I was eating plenty of protiens... I tend to have strong cravings for fish. I feel best eating fish once a week at least. I also supplement with fish oils daily.
Yet I do best with very little dairy intake, as well as low carbs. I have learned all this through much expirimentation over the years.
The only way I can eat bread without impairing my digestion is to eat yeat-free sourdough breads, made the traditional European method...

I guess I think there is some sense to her theories, but I also think we have all evolved some from the physiology of our ansectors...
I also believe each body has different needs, even each body within a same-race tribal community. It is good to try various ways of eating and approaches to health, and in the process we should learn what works for our individual selfs. There is so much knowledge and medicinal therapies we can draw from within many of the traditional cultures of the world...
I also have personally learned that our bodies evolve with age. My bodies needs at 20 are different than what they are now at 28. IMO, no one way of eating or diet is the "true' way... just listen to your own body and it's responses to find your true way.


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## allys jill (Aug 24, 2003)

i myself really agree with much of what the WAP foundation has to say and i have seen my daughter go from being a sickly (and sickly-looking) vegan child to a child with rosy cheeks who is now healthy as a horse. i don't have much else to say as for me, that says it all!
i also don't follow this "diet" (as elainie pointed out, it's really just a cookbook) but i do eat all whole, natural foods and have personally found that i don't tolerate grains particularly well. i eat lots of veggies and a good amount of meat lately, eggs, and some fruit. i also eat nuts and drink nutmilk in smoothies. i have never felt or looked better so far. i also don't have gas that i had problems with on a vegan diet---i ate way too many refined carbs back then. i think it really does depend on each person. but i whole-heartedly adore this foundation's commitment to rid the world of processed foods







and i support their condemnation of soy foods, as i got to experience firsthand what eating them did to my body. i think they encompass more than just the idea of getting rid of refined foods, white flour....as they are also quite concerned about the issues of bad fats and oils and genetically modified foods....both major health issues, IMO the fats issue is possibly one of the biggest problems.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I am also of Northern european descent, tall pale and red-haired. I don't like meat and never did- but loved fish as a child and caught, cleaned my own from the pond and lake and we ate a lot of fish.

I suffered very bad health as a vegetarian. It wasn't bad at first- but after almnost 30 years and 2 kids, I doubt I would live another decade on a vegetarian diet and have been interested in this and other ways of eating related that would be healthier for me.

I have a problem that I don't like meat or feel good after eating it-but health improves if I do. I just can't like it. I like fish, shellfish, crabs, clams oysters- anything from the sea or water. I sometimes wonder if that's what I should be eating. So much is contaminated these days, I worry about mercury in the fish.

I also have celiac disease- which is genetic- can't eat wheat, rye or barley in any form. This is a genetically common disease in people of European descent.

I'm still on the wait list for this book from the library.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Bebe Luna- I don't see how you disagree with the soy aspect of Sally's book. The Asian diet as you describe it sounds very similar to the way Sally portrays it. Fermented is the key word. As for fresh soy beans, I haven't seen edamame either rejected or accepted as a nutritious food by Sally. I don't know whether she got the amounts wrong, but in either way, we still don't have any other numbers to compare with. We don't know whether soy consumption differ in the various regions that Asia is composed of. Also, Asia is industrialized and I doubt that the more affluent, modern segment of the population offers a reliable account for the actual soy consumption of all Asians.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I work with a chinese guy who comes from Hong Kong. I asked him about soy milk once. He said that generally they drink it like we do fizzy drinks.

I've never suffered bad health as a vegetarian. Just dry skin, which could be other things too. I haven't eaten meat in years & years so could not comment on it's effects. However, if I drink raw milk I wake up all stuffed up & being unable to breathe. I'm quite into raw butter tho'

So, in her book, what does Sally Fallon suggest to do if you are dairy intolerant ?

The other thing I wanted to add is we are having some advertising here about A2 milk.

http://www.a2corporation.com/english/index2.html


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Sally doesn't really suggest you do anything but stay away from dairy if you don't tolerate it. First, try raw dairy though (which you already did, me included and it's still a no-no). Her point is that in societies who didn't rely on dairy for calcium, meat broths were always used liberally. This is something that I have taken as a principle. She points out that the calcium in vegetables and grains are not as bioavailable, so I make sure to add stock to my cooking every day. Since you're vegetarian I assume that this isn't an option for you, and maybe you don't agree with the point I made anyhow








Our very close friends are vegetarians and we plan to live communally with them in the near future. They base much of their opnions on ecological reasons. Since we will be living ecologically sustainably on the land we have, we've run into some controversies. But I keep telling them that being a vegetarian isn't an option for me since I don't tolerate carbs well and can't rely on dairy for calcium. Everyone has their own specific needs, and that matters the most I think. For some, eating meat isn't an option. If you don't crave it, why eat it. Funny though, our friends have to leave the kitchen when we cook meat because they say it smells so good.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

My mother used to make bone broths & eat bone marrow on toast. She'd also presure cook up the chicken carcass from sunday dinner & make soup stock out of it. It made me feel a bit sick in those days when I was little so no go there for me. Looks like I will have to stick to lentils after all









Interesting about what your friends say about cooking meat smelling so good. I detest the smell of cooking meat. I never liked the taste so it was not a big loss to me to give up. I do not see being vegetarian or vegan as a life of self deprivation & horrid boring food for the sake of being self righteous about animal rights whilst secretly coverting my neighbour's bacon sarnies. I actually like vegetarian food. I could happily live off indian vege food the rest of my life.

If your friends feel like that about meat maybe they could become conscious (sp?) meat eaters. Over the years I have to come to realise that ppl will always eat meat. If this is the case, we need to at least support small organic farmers who loving raise & humanely bump off their animals. Not trucking them to the meat works is a big one for me.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I agree with you. Why, if they like meat, don't they eat it instead of depriving themselves of something they actually crave? They aren't very healthy, eat mostly just sandwiches, not much in the way of proteins ect. I think for them, eating meat would be helpful, but they're (mostly the guy, his girlfriend does it mainly for his reasons) stuck on the idea that being vegetarian is more environmentally sound. I don't agree with this at all, and believe that there are ways of keeping animals for consumption without overstressing the land.


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## Mothernature (Jun 10, 2002)

Ok, my readings of Sally Fallon extend beyond NT and I often get some of the info mixed up. There is an article on the WAPF website written by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig called _Soy: The Tragedy and the Hype_ where Fallon and Enig basically demonize soy and any use of soy that is not fermented (including edamame.) Here is a link: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/tragedy.html

Give it a read and see if you agree with the statement I just made.

When I lived in Iwakuni (40 miles south of Hiroshima) I found that the Asian peoples ate plenty of non-fermented soy and soybeans. The people I lived with what would be considered country peoples, but I visited Hong Kong and Hiroshima often. The big difference I found between the Japanese diet and the American diet is that Americans consume so much more sugar. The soy consumption was not really the issue. I do tend to agree that soy as an emulsifier and processed soy should be used warily, but I don't eat processed food anyway so that isn't really an issue. Our family doesn't like the fake meat or the TVP many veges rely heavily on to complete their diet. If we use tofu, it's usually silken tofu to make a cream sauce or smoothie. We do like edamame, roasted soy nuts, soy nut butter, and dh likes tempeh (I don't.)

In NT Sally suggests that if you don't tolerate milk you should first try raw milk because the processes of pasturization and homogenization kills the enzymes in milk that make it digestable. If you still cannot tolerate milk, you should substitute vinegar or lemon juice to soak your grains. This is supposed to help break down the grains and make them more digestable. The lactofermentation process that Fallon so strongly encourages relies heavily on milk, but you can ferment foods with other things. This is the area that becomes labor intensive to me. I have a difficult time preparing foods so far in advance. If I wanted to make her chicken stock for a soup I would have to make it three days before I wanted to use the stock so that it could cook all day and then sit in the refrigerator until the fat rose to the top (usually about two days.) By that time, I might not want the soup anymore. I could of course freeze the broth at that point and use it when the soup appealed to me once more.

I'm not 100% against NT, I do think there are some valid points she makes, but many of them are not exclusive to her suggested diet. I was avoiding trans fats and corn syrup in foods long before I ever heard of Fallon. I also agree that whole grains and varied grains are much preferable to a standard western diet of white flour and refined sugar. Her arguments for raw milk seem compelling, but if you don't tolerate milk it isn't useful. I do however, believe that you can consume a healthy vegetarian diet where Fallon does not. Often the assumption is that vegetarians rely too heavily on soy, carbs and processed foods for their nutrition. My family does not eat that way. We eat a varied diet that includes grains, vegetables, fruits, some dairy and eggs.

What do you think?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by OceanMomma_
*My mother used to make bone broths & eat bone marrow on toast. She'd also presure cook up the chicken carcass from sunday dinner & make soup stock out of it. It made me feel a bit sick in those days when I was little so no go there for me. Looks like I will have to stick to lentils after all









Interesting about what your friends say about cooking meat smelling so good. I detest the smell of cooking meat. I never liked the taste so it was not a big loss to me to give up. I do not see being vegetarian or vegan as a life of self deprivation & horrid boring food for the sake of being self righteous about animal rights whilst secretly coverting my neighbour's bacon sarnies. I actually like vegetarian food. I could happily live off indian vege food the rest of my life.

If your friends feel like that about meat maybe they could become conscious (sp?) meat eaters. Over the years I have to come to realise that ppl will always eat meat. If this is the case, we need to at least support small organic farmers who loving raise & humanely bump off their animals. Not trucking them to the meat works is a big one for me.*








This is me to. I detest the smell of cooking meat and became a vegetarian as a small child mostly because I hated meat. I always picked it out, even as a small child. I am trying to be a conscious meat eater- but have to gag the meat down.

I grew up on a farm and had to partake in chicken butchering and all of the farm details. It is really better, though, to get your meat from a farm where the animals were free and humanely treated.

We had bone broths and headcheese and bloodsausage as a child- and raw ground beef, which my family ate and I was grossed out by.

I need the meat for my health, but it is like taking medicine- I hate it. I was a happy vegetarian since I was a kid, just one with malnutrition from my undiagnosed CD- I am hoping that after I recover I can go back to being a vegetarian. If I stay off the grains, maybe can avoid the meat and eat some fish once in awhile.

I do need a better way of eating in general- to get more nutrients. I have craved meat, like when preg.- but I actually have it in front of me- if I took one bite, that would be all I wanted.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Mothernature- I've read that article too, and sorry I forgot that they mentioned edamame. I will go back and see what they wrote about phytate content in fresh soybeans. I would just like to know what kinds of soy products your Japanese friends ate, and others you were in contact with. I agree that the soy we use in the West is unhealthy, yet people who argue for veganism for example, urge people to buy fake meat in the form of processed soy (I'm thinking of this one pamphlet I got from a vegan about how animals are treated on commercial farms). I believe that the information that Fallon and Enig provide gives a much needed different perspective on the use of healthy versus unhealthy soy products, especially when it comes to feeding babies with soy based formula. I think if mothers new some basic facts about soy, they would perhaps avoid using soy as bm-substitute. I think they based that one article on studies of traditional uses of soy. It is very likely that Asians of today do not use soy in a similar fashion, much as we don't use wheat in the same fashion as our healthier ancestors did.

S for food prep and NT being too energy-consuming- I just can't relate to this, even though I'm not one with over-abundant energy, on the contrary. We make very simple meals using stock on an everyday basis. I don't think in terms of in-advance prep. One day I make stock. It simmers for 12-48 hours. Goes in fridge, next day, fat comes off. Save it for frying, freeze most of the stock. Use it throughout the week for everything, braising veggies, soups, meat stews, roasting etc. This saves me ALOT of time and energy because the stock is so flavorful and nutritious on its own I don't need to use a well-thought-out flavorful mix of spices. How hard is making lacto-fermented foods? Well, I agree that when I just got the book I was over-whelmed too, but after using it and not thinking about how to make things AHEAD of time, I realized how easy it is. I also find it extremly fascinating to have a pot of meat stock on simmer for a couple of days. How I don't have to put hardly any energy into it, but still get so much in return. Meat stock is a such a nutrient-dense food and excellent digestive aid, it's well worth the mere half-hour of work I put into it. I wonder if my tone is putting you off a little, if so I'm sorry. I'm well aware of that the book seems very overwhelming at first, but I assure you it's a mindset thing. First thing, if you want to make meat stock, do it only if you want to use it often. Otherwise, not worth the effort. Same thing with fermented foods. NT is not so much a specific diet, and I think it serves you best if you use concepts that appeal to you. For a vegetarian who relies on grains, legumes and nuts, the soaking principle is invaluable, IMO


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

I'm glad AmyMN started this thread though I have been slow to join in. I have had NT book for a couple of months now and there is some stuff I like, some I don't agree with, and some that I'm not sure is worth the bother.

I emphatically agree that refined sugar and hydrogenated oils are poisin and should be avoided as much as possible. I have been talking to parents about that for several years in my workshops and am happy the issues are becoming more publicized. As for hydrogenated oils, I don't think substitutes necessarily have to be animal though my family enjoys organic, raw butter - I have found coconut oil to be a great substitute in baking and for cooking eggs, etc. I also use a lot of olive oil.

After reading NT, I was tempted to include more dairy products in my diet. I got goats milk from a neighbor but it made me very sick - and I tried it several times and even made yogurt from it but every time I had a reaction - I'm not sure why.

My children however eat unhomogenized plain yogurt (from pastuerized cows milk) several times a week and we get some raw cheese but I don't eat much dairy because it stuffs me up. I don't know where to get raw milk products other than this neighbor and I'm afraid he is not that sanitary. I thought about getting our own milk goat but don't want to be tied to the milking schedule.

I have been enjoying chicken broth - I cook a chicken about once a month and make broth from giblets and carcass and freeze it and I found it really makes my soups flavorful.

I tried the fermenting of oats for oatmeal and no one really liked it. I have been soaking my barley, oats, etc. overnight but omitting the whey and I feel like that probably helps with the phytic acid too even without the acid - but that's just my opinion.

I tried the soaked and roasted nuts and LOVEd them - I had been looking for a low carb/high protein snack because I think I eat too many carbs/grains even though they're always whole grains and want to eat more protein. I find I have more energy and feel better when I eat more protein. I have also been making fish at least once a week because of NT and other books I have read.

One thing I don't agree with is that Fallon seems to think we need such a large amount of animal food. She gives examples from many native tribes but I argue that our lifestyles are much different from theirs. We don't spend our days hunting, gathering, and doing all the physical things they did. Our lives are so much more sedentary that I don't think we need the same nourishment as they do.

Oceanmama - I checked out the link about the A2 corporation. It really scares me when scientists take apart our food - I feel that nature created our food in the correct way for us and we are always messing around with it and that's what causes our problems.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Going back to the environmental issues. Being vegetarian for environmental reasons was one of the myths according to the NT web site. I know it was a big issue for vegetarians in the 70s ( diet for a small planet & the ppl on the Farm spring to mind ) I think a lot of that was to do with thrid world countries growing crops to feed first world meat animals instead of crops to feed themselves.

From an environmental point of view, I would guess it is better for a nation to be as self sufficient in food production as possible. So if that includes farming using animals on more barren land you could not grow crops on that makes sense. Where we live, we could keep some chooks. We could eat the excess roosters, have eggs & lots of valuable manure for the garden. Ditto with ducks. Compare & contrast that with us getting our chicken fix from KFC or buying antibiotic ridden, hormone laden broiler chickens. Even buying non-meat products can be unevironmentally friendly. Look at bananas!

I probably need to







before I get in trouble. I'm not a very good vegetarian some days.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Actually, where I live is a perfect example of what you are saying Oceanmama. It is really hilly and rocky. A lot of people raise cattle here and they just roam around. If I was to eat meat, I would get one of those cows because they are grass fed and not penned up.

Also, many people don't realize that many animals are harmed in the raising of crops - deer, gophers and many other pests are poisoned, trapped, or killed in other ways.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Oceanmamma- it's good to see vegetarians with the opinions that you have








I've been trying to tell our friends the exact same things, but they're pretty set on their conviction and I'm not pushy since they're entitled to believe what they want. However, it kind of sucks to feel like your friends think you're environmental just because you eat meat.

Cathe- you make a valid point about our life-styles being more sedentary. I'm not sure I agree 100% though. Yes, fat contains more caloric value than carbs or protein, but they're also a concentrated source of nutrients that humans cannot thrive without, like fat-solubles vitamins. There's proof that we need a certain amount of these vitamins to keep our entire bodies in excellent shape (they're such important nutrients). So, to get the amount of fat-solubles we need we get a certain amount of calories as well. Calories are not only burnt while physically active. We also need energy to think. When we are under stress, a condition that is all too common in our modern wolrd, our bodies require energy. Now, I don't exactly know how much calories we require to worry about something for a half-hour and how much we need to work in the field for a half-hour. As sedentary people, we need probably not as many calories in our diets, but we are likely to need far more nutrients, like vitamins and minerals because of our degenerated bodies. We need foods to get these nutrients, and if it means we get extra calories, I say, let's get moving. Animal fats are the only good source of fat-soluble vitamins.
I'm aslo not sure just how physical traditional people were, dh says hunters and gatherers worked four hours a day. Peasants probably worked harder, but I'm not sure. There's an article on the WAP site about islanders who lived on a fatty diet who were pretty sedentary, but had lean bodies.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Aw shucks Morsan







That is quite scarey! I mean for a meat eater to say that to me. I've been a rabid animal rights vege for many years now. That said I have also only recently moved down country & been closer to the whole farming community as a whole. I think it is easy to be a vege when you live in town!! Well to me it is easy to be a vege anywhere but what I mean more is it is easier to only see the sides of the issues that you need to in town. Digging a hole here!!! I don't see meat eating / being vege from a health point of view coz, let's face it, both sides make very convincing arguements either way & we could be here forever debating that side of things. I think there really are 3 debates here. Vege, factory farmed cruelty shop meat & organic home killed meat.

I really think it is a personal thing. You do what you feel you want to do for either personal health or ethics reasons. &, much as I would rather the whole world was vegan even, I have to be realistic. Plus I live in a country where the whole economy is built of milk & meat. It is more the intolerable cruelty of factory farms I would like to see gotten rid of. Not to mention the meat works. Trust me I have met ppl who have worked there & it is not pretty. Blind eyes get turned left, eight & centre by the ppl who inspect the places too. That is why ppl who have to eat meat for whatever reason IMO should seek out organically farmed, lovingly raised & humanely killed meat & ppl who can't get it should stay vege!!!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I still think vegetarianism is the best environmentally because it is lowest on the food chain. I think eating some meat (I include meat as poultry , fish, everything) that is wild or range raised is probably healthy, too- but eating a diet high on the food chain exposes you to the most pesticides as well as using more resources than an organic diet of plant foods. A foraged plant diet would be healthiest- I really think a hunter/gatherer lifestyle was the time people were both healthiest and had the most liesure time in our our history. Foragers probably ate insects as well, which I'm not willing to do.

I don't see how eating all kinds of animal products would be healthy- especially in this day and age when they are loaded with pesticides. The higher you go up the food chain, the more accumulation of those you get.

I was a vegetarian on the farm.

What turned me off to meat, other than the taste, was watching neighbor boys hack the heads off chickens at butchering time and laughing, as well as seeing their cute bunnies hung up and skinned.







I was sensitive to these things. There is suffering involved.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Morsan - I wasn't at all arguing that we don't need fat and protein in our diets - as someone who was a vegan eating low-fat, low-protein diet I was very unhealthy. I am much better now eating more protein and fats (both vegetable and animal) and my weight has stayed pretty much the same on both diets.

I think americans in general eat way too many refined carbs and trans-fats and that is the cause of our the obesity and health problems in our country - I guess that pretty much agrees with NT. I was just thinking that some of the examples Fallon cited like natives consuming 2 gallons of goats milk a day and such was a little much . . .

I'm really getting into the fermenting stuff though. When I studied macrobiotics were would make natural pickles and eat them every day. I want to start doing that again. I have made a couple of batches of rejuvelac and been drinking that. Have any of you read the Body Ecology Diet? It has a lot of info on cultured foods too.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

OceanMomma- sorry I didn't mean to put you in a bad position







It's just nice to see that people can see things from both perspectives. I know that you don't support meat-eating so don't feel like you need to justify yourself. That's really cool though that we can accept other peoples' eating habits and even their reasons for it, even though we don't agree with them, makes sense?
As for vege being the most environmental way, I have read many articles that disprove this to an extent. Personally I don't have a desire to argue what the real truth is (simply put, there's no real truth to this issue much like there's no one truth for anything), I just want people (especially friends since we relate to each other on a daily basis, referring to the friends I talked about initially) to know that one can be environmental but still choose to eat meat.
Also, since I'm of the opinion that we need some animal fat in our diets, it isn't possible for me to go vegetarian since I don't tolerate milk or eggs that well. Saving the earth isn't just about saving other life-forms (if that was the case we'd all just commit suicide if we were that environmental), it's about saving ourselves as well. I believe that it's crucial to have access to a diet that is right for each individual so that we can prosper as human beings as well. There won't be global change unless we have more sane people on earth, and we need proper food to acheive that.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by morsan_
*Saving the earth isn't just about saving other life-forms (if that was the case we'd all just commit suicide if we were that environmental), it's about saving ourselves as well. I believe that it's crucial to have access to a diet that is right for each individual so that we can prosper as human beings as well.*








. Morsan, it is important to eat what makes you thrive. I like how you put that, about adding the survival of people to the environmental equation. There is something going on among some environmentalists about the earth surviving, but humans being unnecesary. As humans, we need to work ourselves into the environmental equation. We ARE part of the environment.

I need to eat some animlas right now as well, or I will not survive-but I do think vegetarianism, if your body can do it, is an excellent choice- and eating mostly animal products could expose you to allot of pesticices as well as using more resources. Finding a balance is important. There does need to be humane ecologically raised meat animals available for those who need to eat them. My own youngest child will need to eat meat and vegetables since he can't eat eggs, dairy, soy, nuts, potatoes or wheat/gluten grains and without these he would not have enough food to eat to survive.

At a certain point, what is most environmental in theory needs to be compromised for the survival- and especially of thoughtful people such as you, morsan and others who are seriously thinking about these issues.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

MamaMonica- It's real easy to forget that humans are part of the environment, I agree with you. We don't need to be martyrs to save the earth. If we don't nourish ourselves we will have no energy to change things for the better.

Vegetarianism poses some challenges too. What comes to mind is the research that Weston Price did. He found that those who substisted mainly on plant foods were not as healthy as those who had access to plenty of animal foods. I'm not saying this is true for every comparison between a meat eater and a vegetarian, but I think it has some truth to it, something worth thinking of. Of course when people of the past choose what foods to eat they did so based on what was available. I think this is the most environmental way. So if one lives on the Plains, or in coastal areas, vege isn't the best way to go in this aspect. But, if one does best on such a diet but happen to live there, that goes before anything.
Now, about pesticides being more concentrated in animal products. I don't see a huge problem with this if you make sure to get organic meats. Am I wrong? Besides, for me it's more important to get all the necessary nutrients in animal products, so that my body is more able to cope with environmental toxins. I'm interested if anyone knows if nutrient content is taken into account when calculating whether raising meat consumes more resources (I mean not just the caloric value of a certain food). I read in an article that it takes much more beef to get your calories for a day than wheat flour.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

If you want to argue on the harmful effects of farming versus a hunter gatherer lifestyle (yes even natural farming) a good book to read is Metabolic Man- 10,000 Years From Eden.

There's different ways to see things. I do'lt think grass based biodynamic farming is harmful to the environment- quite the contrary, nor do I think eating grass based animal products puts you at a risk for environmental toxins any more than vegetables (and I only eat organic veggies.)

Again, everyoe does what feels best for them.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

You do have a point about grass fed meat probably not accumulating more pesticides than eating plants since it is just one step up the food chain from eating plants yourself. For fish an things that eat other animals- whether it organic or not, at each step going up the food chain, the residues become more concentrated. This was a problem with Eagles and DDT.

These residues are still in the environment, even if the food is organic.

Eating locally whenever possible is also good. We have a share in an organic farm and get our veggies that way during the growing season.

It is hard nowadays to eassily live an ecological life- it takes, thought and effort. I don't think the problem is people eating too much organic grass fed meat-- but more the masses eating a lot of McDonalds and factory farmed meat without ever questioning whether that is a good thing.

I am in a bad position- because I am not quite a vegetarian or strict on that but not an advocate of eating/harming animals beyond what you need. I think it comes down to the basic issue of taking what you need and no more, whatever that is.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Something interesting to report here. You know the quote I mentioned from the NT web stie where they say about ppl with coastal ancestry needing animal source EFAs. Well since my skin has always been very dry since adulthood & I've always had badly cracked feet - even if I drink bulk flax seed oil. In fact, I can safely say drinking flax seed oil has zero effect on me, other than making me feel a bit sick. Anyways I decided to put this to the test & was a







vege. I got myself some fish oil capsules & gave it a whirl. I've been taking 3 3x a day with meals. Do you know what ? My heels have almost healed ( no pun intended







) The pores on the skin on my face have got way smaller & it has gotten heaps clearer & younger looking. This is in literally a week!!!!! & no there is nothing else it could have been.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Flax gave me pimples, made me nauseated and gave my nursing baby (going back many years ago with my third child) pimples as well. And it was fresh ordered direct from the company.

There is a growing number of people who are concerned about the adverse aspects of flax oil and flax seed consumption. I know for a fact I never derived anything from it because I do get a fatty acid profile done.

I use Krill oil as an omega 3 supplement- that along with a virtually grain free diet high in grass fed meats/ some wild salmon and sardines has given me a fatty acid profile of 1:1 n6 and n3.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

elainie- hmm, krill oil, never heard of it. Where do you get it from? Why is that the best oil in your opinion? What about cod liver oil?
About seafood, how concerned should I be about contaminants? I keep reading different opinions about this, really confusing. I'd love to eat more seafood but if the rate of toxins is too high, maybe it isn't worth it. Would any wild salmon do? I've read that Alaskan has the least contaminants, but I live in Sweden, so wild Fjord Norwegian salmon is closest for me. Do sardines contain smaller amount of toxins as well?

I agree about flax oil, made me feel nauseated too, but I thought it was because it tastes kind of nasty on a green salad. Not quite like oilve oil...

OceanMomma- that's great that your skin healed just by taking some fish oil.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Oceanmomma, glad the fish oil works.

Interesting about flax oil. I can drink it off the spoon as long as it is fresh and stored in glass not plastic (all plastic makes it taste nasty IMO) and its delicious. My ds loves it as well and would drink as many tbs of it as I would give him and run off with the spoon to eat.

Flax, boarge, olive any of the plant oils do well for us. Fish oil works, too- but the plant oils seem to keep longer in the fridge.

I worry about the contaminents in sea food. I think your fish would be one of cleaner ones, morsan- the cod liver oil my naturaopath sells comes from Norweigan cod, which is supposed to be the cleanest cod you can get.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I think our fish down here is quite clean. I would worry about the after effects of chernobyl still in scandinavia, altho' to be honest, that is just a knee jerk reaction by me. I have no idea what is left still where you are. It was about 18 years ago.

I'm very confused now. I have no idea how to cook anything other than vegan meals which are predominantly pulses & carbs. I do not feel right ethically feeding my kids meat, altho' I can get away with fish. EVerytime my toddler has lots of dairy she gets a cold. dh spends his life bleating about not having any dnner cooked when he gets home. ARGH!!! Any ideas where I can find any recipes ? Bebe Luna sounds like she eats closest to how I would feel happy. Maybe she could come over for a holiday


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Oceanmomma, I know what you mean about not knowing what to make. I was a vegeatrian for so many years- and have been learning to eat differently. My ds also gets congested and eczema with dairy. What I've done is buy Diestel turkey- I read about this turkey farm and they use heirloom type turkeys- not the ones bred to produce so much breast meat they can hardly walk. It is an ethical farm. I get sliced, precooked turkey and tear it up for my toddler. he eats this for breakfast, lunch or dinner- it is quick- no cooking.

I tried my kids on fish first- they wouldn't eat it. They won't eat meat besides poultry- so I have also taken to boiling organic chicken into brothe (just dump it directly from the package into boiling water), removing the meat and freezing it to put in pasta dishes and other things- even on pizza. We eat MINIMAL meat, but enough to keep everyone's health up.

I tried buffalo and organic beef just to see- no one liked it much, which is fine. Poultry works for us. I'd do fish more often if someone besides me would eat it.

I still use all my vegetarian cooking skills to make lentil, bean and vegeatble dishes.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

I also can relate about learning to cook fish and poultry after being vegan for over 10 years. Especially now that I'm working on another book, I have really been trying to develop some easy but yummy recipes.

Also Morsan- some info on fish from my research:

- Fish oil capsules are usually free of mercury and toxins because they do not accumlate in the oil
- The smaller the fish, the less contamination that accumlates so sardines and herring are excellent choices (if you like them).
- Wild salmon is best - either alaskian or pacific. Never atlantic because it is always farmed.
- Other good choices cod, mackeral (but not king mackeral), halibut.

I don't know too much about krill.

But I do think fish oil supplements are preferable to flax because they contain DHA and EPA and flax only contains ALA.

From everything I read, eating fish 1 or 2 times a week is beneficial and outweighs the amount of toxins you make get.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Oh I forgot to ask - since reading NT and Body Ecology Diet, I have been thinking more that I would like to include some raw dairy in my diet. Until recently, I had used soy milk for baking, on cereal, in smoothies, etc. but I have decided not to do that anymore. I do make almond milk but I don't really like it for quiche or yogurt.

Anyway, do any of you get raw milk. If so, where??


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## SmashingHP (Aug 9, 2003)

NAK! Cathe, I envy you that you live in a state where raw milk is legal!!







Chech out this site to find a source.

http://www.realmilk.com/where2.html


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Cathe, we get our raw milk cheese at the store from Alta Dena Certified Dairy. The address is City of Industry California 1-800-MILK-123. This cheese is very good tasting- my kids love it, too.

For raw milk, do you know a local dairy farmer who would let you scoop some from the tank? We scooped ours off on the farm before thet truck came to haul it to the dairy- and had people who wanted raw milk come over once in awhile and get some.

If its a Grade A dairy, it has to meet sanitation and low antibiotic level requirements.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

With fish I have found it needs to be really fresh to taste nice to ppl who do not have the aquired taste for all things fishy. By fresh, I mean eaten the day it is caught & not frozen as that effects the taste too. If you do not live by the sea, I s'pose you'd have to get fresh water fish or smoked fish. Shell fish are another taste challenge altogether. I think they need heaps of practise









I'm open to new ways to cook fish. I know zilch about it & pan fried in butter or baked in lemon juice gets a bit boring.


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## Mothernature (Jun 10, 2002)

I get raw milk about once a week. There is a dairy about 45 min from my house and dd and I trek out there to "see the cows." My only complaint is that they feed the cows soy pellets. I'm not sure how much grass they get to graze on. I'm sure they do graze as well though. We buy milk, cream and cheese there and make our own butter and yogurt. I just wish the chicken place was nearby so we could do it all in one trip. I have to make an extra outing to get fresh, free-range, organic chicken and eggs if I want them. Dd is a big chicken eater so I try to keep some around for her.

This thread has inspired me to give NT another shot. I think I tackled the wrong section first. Coming from a vege background, I was drawn to the grains/pulses recipes first, which are IMO the most labor intensive. Soaking grains in yogurt overnight before using them seemed so burdensome to me. This week I skipped that section entirely and made two recipes from the book that were actually quick to prepare. I made the Salmon salad which got rave reviews and the Spaghetti Squash Casserole. My dh had never had spaghetti squash that he liked before and I had never made it before because my first experience was a bland, butter and salt tasting side dish with no real flavor of its own. This was actually very good. Dh came home from work praising it. After two successes, I'm motivated to give the book another shot. I can ease my way into the advanced planning sections of the book. For now I'm going to stick with those meals I can fix last minute. By last minute I mean that I don't want to have to decide on Sun. what I'm eating Thursday night so that my grains and broths are ready. If we ate more meat that might be more feasible, but when I make chicken, it's usually just for dd.


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## mama2annabelle (Dec 29, 2002)

Lisa,

Can you post the recipe for the salmon salad you mentioned or pm it to me? I'm always looking for new ways to prepare it.

Thanks


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## bebe luna (Nov 20, 2001)

What is Krill Oil? I never heard of it!
I agree w/ cathe~ fish oil seems a better choice over flax...
I also think hemp oil is a much better choice over flax. Flax is good, but shouldn't be the only source for the omega oils.
I personally take fish oil caps, my son takes straight cod liver oil, I put hemp oil in smoothies, sprinkle hemp seeds over salads and stirfries, mix flax meal into my sons oatmeal, as well as mix into baked foods... and cook mainly w/ olive oil and sesame oil.

I buy raw milk cheese at the co-op, but don't know of a good source of raw milk. When I lived in Texas we has raw goats milk daily (from our herd). It was wonderful, especially for making yogurt. I am not a milk drinker, but I would love a source of bulk raw goats milk for making cheeses, sour cream, and yogurt. Since I don't know of one, and don't like using a lot of pasturized products (even if they are organic), that is why I use rice, soy, and almond milk in place of goat or cow milk for drinking, and cooking.

About cooking fish:
My typical methods~
*salmon- make a yummie marinade (I like one w/ tamari, ginger,and maple syrup) and grill or bake (grilled seems yummiest to me)
*flaky white fish (like tilapia or cod)- pan grill w/ a bit of butter, lemon, garlic, and parsley
*scallops- sautee in garlic butter
*shrimp- boil, peel, and add to stirfries
*clams- steam in a bit of sake (learned this at the Japanese resteraunt I used to work at)
*crab- steam or boil and add to crabcakes, sushi rolls, dips

I also like to make seafood stews. this is very popular where I used to live in Louisiana and Florida, not as much here in Minnesota, so I usually pull out the southern cookbooks. I also have a cookbook w/ recipes from "Old World Europe" that has a ton of fish and seafood based soups, stocks, and stews.

My favorite way to eat seafood/fish is sushi.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Where I then run into problems is what to serve with the fish. Other than salad & potatoes









I can get nice fresh salmon right now so I will try marinading some after I have been shopping. dd loves fish so she is easy to please.

Many moons ago I used to make a seafood gumbo. I just need to relook up the recipe. All the veges in it grow well in my garden too


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Cathe- thanks for the fish info. I'll try and get some of that norwegian salmon, as well as sardines. About herring, I think I heard that isn't recommended here in Sweden because it's usually from the Baltic Sea and that is one of the most polluted waters in the world (what a shame...).
The Chernobyl accident still has some effect on the quality of wild meat, especially game. There's so much stuff going into the Baltic Sea I'm not sure if that accident still affects the water quality. I live closer to the West Coast, fortunately, and there's a fish merchant that comes to stores in town every week.

I'm not used to cooking fish either but in NT there are alot of different techniques, like cooking in parchment paper. That mimics the way traditional people cooked their fish.

bebe luna- what cookbook are you referring to?


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Krill are tiny tiny shrimp like creatures that whales eat.
What makes krill so special is that it has zero lipid peroxidase- meaning it's not oxidized liek other fish oils (all oils that are high in PUFA's are eaily oxidized and become rancid) ingesting these forms free radicals and leads to arterial lesions and plaque buildup.

Krill oil contains 40% long chain omega 3 acids and like other fish oils, the EPA and DHA are preformed so the body doesn't have to convert it (important for people with low thyroid and those who lack the enzymes necessary to convert it.)

Half the omega 3 acids in krill are also composed of phospholipids whcih don;t exist in other fish oils or algae extracts.

The two phospholipids- phatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine are reported to reverse artherosclerosis and maintain the integrity of brain tissues by imrpoving abnormal phospholipid and eicosanoid metabolism in mental disorders.

It also contains a powerful antioxidant which contains 550 times the antioxidant power of vitamin E and two potent carotenoids (astaxanthin and canthaxanthin.)

It does contain some preformed vitamin A like cod liver oil but not nearly as much.


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## allys jill (Aug 24, 2003)

elainie,
i've been meaning to ask you but forgot until reading this. would excess vitamin A cause heart palpitations? i took cod liver oil for 4 days in a row (the most i ever remember) and started having them like crazy like i used to when eating soy.


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## bebe luna (Nov 20, 2001)

About the krill oil~ where do ya buy it and what does it cost?

allys jill~ about the cod liver oil...
" Research has shown that it reduces the likelihood of blood clotting, makes the heart less prone to arrhythmias (irregular heart beats). It alters the balance of blood fats in a favourable way and reduces the viscosity of blood, thereby faciliting blood flow."

Contra-indications/Precautions:
Cod Liver Oil is probably best avoided by asthmatics, diabetics and people taking anti-coagulants, such as Warfarin.

The main difference between cod liver oil and fish oil is that cod liver oil is high in vitamin D. In warm weather, the sunshine produces high and usually sufficient levels of vitamin D without any supplementation necessary; I do not recommend consuming cod liver oil in the warm weather months or climates, as this can result in an excess of vitamin D in your system and consequential complications. Conversely, in cool weather, your body needs more vitamin D, and so I recommend cod liver oil versus fish oil in cool weather months or climates. "(from Dr. Mercola)


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

bebe luna- do you know why people with asthma should avoid cod liver oil? My sister was going to order it and she has asthma.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

would excess vitamin A cause heart palpitations? i took cod liver oil for 4 days in a row (the most i ever remember) and started having them like crazy like i used to when eating soy
I looked up hypervitaminosis (fancy way of saying "vitamin overdose"). Excessive consumption of vitamin D causes aortic valve stenosis, I don't know if you get heart palpitations along the way.

Here's the link to the NIH article on hypervitaminosis A. And, here's a link to a similar article on vitamin D toxicity.

These are _fat soluble_ vitamins, so they don't get peed away like vitamin C. It's possible to get too much! Even from food.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

This is getting to be quite the informative thread . . .

MamaMonica - I do get the alta dena cheese but get this weird logic. My store only carries organic pastuerized cheese but they have non-organic raw cheese . . . I keep asking them to find out if they can get organic raw but so far no answer.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Okay, I have more stuff to add to this so-called debate.

First of all, cod liver oil. Codfish stocks are totally depleted. This is a big issue where I live. Here is a recent newspaper article about regulating the cod fisheries in New England. This is too bad, because cod have a relatively low level of mercury in their bodies, compared to other fish. Apparently many brands of cod liver oil do have high levels of mercury and other toxins, though
(see this 1997 article this more recent article about cod liver oil being pulled by the UK equivalent of the FDA) and probably because the liver is the organ that cleans the blood, so it collects toxins.

Which I said upthread, but I didn't see any responses.

I guess you folks are all satisfied with the "ethnic eating" argument, too--since you can trace your bloodlines back to the Vikings.







:


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Now let me say something about raw milk products. I remember from when I was pregnant that cheeses made from raw milk are supposed to put pregnant women at risk for listeria. So I decided to do a search to see whether anyone had addressed this question. Here is an article from the Canadian Food Safety Network about raw milk. I don't know much about the ideology of the people behind the website, but it does sound like there have been cases of serious illness from bacteria transmitted in raw milk.

I read an article in the New Yorker about raw milk cheeses that explained the technical process by which the bacteria in the cheese are neutralized. (it was in the New Yorker of August 19 and 26, 2002--I saved it to share with someone at work and so I have it in my office!) The author of the article interviewed a nun who makes these traditional cheeses who explained her research on the molds which were traditionally used in French cheese-making. As you know, molds were the first anti-biotics--the mold is used to kill the unfriendly bacteria. If the cheese maker doesn't use this technique, people eating the cheese may become very very ill. If you read the article, making cheese this way is a dying art--and eating raw milk cheese that isn't made with this level of expertise could kill you. As the author put it, "in 1985 an unaged cheese made with raw milk was blamed for twenty-nine fatalities--mostly still-births--in Southern California. The cheese was contimated with Listeria monocytogenes..."

(He then goes on to describe how the FDA took away the wooden cheese making barrels that actually contained the mold that neutralizes these dangerous bacteria.







Interesting article about a traditional food--but also, a warning that not everyone knows how to make raw milk cheese!)

Here's an article on raw milk by our friendly vegan monomaniac, Rob Cohen, the guy who runs the notmilk.com website. He was actually responding to Sally Fallon's contention that raw milk is healthier than pasteurized milk. It's a long article. He has done some research here.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*Okay, I have more stuff to add to this so-called debate.

First of all, cod liver oil. Codfish stocks are totally depleted. This is a big issue where I live. Here is a recent newspaper article about regulating the cod fisheries in New England. This is too bad, because cod have a relatively low level of mercury in their bodies, compared to other fish. Apparently many brands of cod liver oil do have high levels of mercury and other toxins, though
(see this 1997 article this more recent article about cod liver oil being pulled by the UK equivalent of the FDA) and probably because the liver is the organ that cleans the blood, so it collects toxins.

Which I said upthread, but I didn't see any responses.

I guess you folks are all satisfied with the "ethnic eating" argument, too--since you can trace your bloodlines back to the Vikings.







:*
Those articles are why I discontinued cod liver oil, that and because I got Vit A poisoning because my doctor never told me how much to take and I overdosed with 2 tbsp a day. I also didn't notice any improvement over flax oil, so that's what we are back to.

I don't think I trace to Vikings, but my ancestors must have eaten a lot of fish since Fischer was a family name! I used to love fresh fish I caught myself as a child, but eating store fish that's been sitting around is just not the same, so we don't eat it much.

I am really concerned about dioxins, heavy metals, PCBs. When we were growing up my family ate a lot of smoked fish from Lake Michigan and there was a warning to only eat it once a week- but my dad had it every night. the funny things is- he's in his 70s and a fit, active farmer still.

edited to fix typing


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

The reason I get raw milk is that my family don't drink soy. Only me & dd#2 do. So I have to get milk. Previously we were getting it delivered in bottles as it was a local business & they recycled. Rather unfortunately we have a large company called Fonterra that owns a whole heap of the dairy stuff out here & is rather dodge. So I'd rather not give them my money. I know the cows on the farm I get our milk off have a good life & are not subjected to any of brutal practises normal dairy cows are, other than the obvious BIG one. Fair enough the excess males do eventually get killed but they do get home killed & are allowed to get big. I STILL feel guilty about it but, for our non vegan family it was the best option I could think of as me refusing totally to play ball & buy any dairy would result in them doing it & continued financial support of all the things I am against. I also would rather give my money to local peaople than the big multinationals. No one is perfect, I try to make the best environmentally sound choices based on where I live right now.

I'm fully aware of the bacterial arguements, which I do think are a bit over exaggerated in some cases. I think it's very important to check the source for hygeine etc. Perosnally I think you are more at risk from unwisely buying chicken sarnies from the local takeaway or having part cooked chicken at a barbeque. I cannot count how many ppl I know who have had food poisoning from barbies at some point in time. No one is campaigning for only well cooked chicken to be available as it is an acceptable thing. I know all about listeria too. I tell every single female of potential childbearing age my milk comes direct from a cow & explain it to them before I give them any in their tea or coffee. Even if I have already told them, just to make sure. I feel like a compulsive maniac some days....NO wonder dh is always yelling at me about why cant things be simple. In the good ol' days when he was single & he could go to McDeathburger & enjoy the food as he did not know the truth. I blew that for him by keeping a burger on the bench for 18 months & it grew absolutely no mould. Sadly enuf, that effected him way more than all the blatantly obvious stuff about McDs!!!!

I am English too so I know all about the cod situation in the North sea. Where I live now is a different proposition altogether. But lots of the beaches up North near Auckland are stripped bare of shellfish. My fish oil I had come from local salmon.

I find the ethnic arguement fascinating. It has big holes in it as most arguements do, but hey! don't we always believe what we want to & suits our current purpose


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

I don't think I trace to Vikings, but my ancestors must have eaten a lot of fish since Fischer was a family name!
Or caught it. Or sold it. But it could have been river fish or sea fish. (Or maybe you had an ancestory who looked fishy to someone.)


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by OceanMomma_
*I also would rather give my money to local peaople than the big multinationals. No one is perfect, I try to make the best environmentally sound choices based on where I live right now.

I'm fully aware of the bacterial arguements, which I do think are a bit over exaggerated in some cases. I think it's very important to check the source for hygeine etc. Perosnally I think you are more at risk from unwisely buying chicken sarnies from the local takeaway or having part cooked chicken at a barbeque. I*
I like the idea of buying local milk that you know comes from well-treated cows. If I had to choose between pasteurized milk from a dodgy dairy and raw milk from a good dairy, I would buy the raw milk *and scald it*. (Even though Rob Cohen in the page I linked, above, claims that doesn't do anything (!) it's a traditional way of dealing with milk.)

I also agree that uncooked chicken is a huge problem. Here in the States I've seen public health warnings about using the same cutting board for meats and for vegetables, for exactly this reason. (We don't have a huge tradition of eating undercooked chicken here.)

But I think it's apples and oranges (heh heh)--it sounds like all animal products, and any vegetables that are grown using manure, are a risk for salmonella and other disease bacteria. I think traditionally made cheeses and yogurts were done the way they were because it was a way to kill bacteria without cooking the milk.

The agency where I work offers a course in food services job training. We prepare people for a food safety certification exam. There are a lot of rules about how long food has to be cooked in order to be safe. You know that many people can eat food that would give some folks food poisoning, but only a few will get sick, and only those with weak or undeveloped immune systems will get seriously ill or die. Still I wouldn't intentionally tell people to eat raw dairy for health benefits!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

On the raw milk- I grew up on raw milk on the farm as did everyone with cows in our farming community. We never got any bacterial illnesses from it. My mom drank raw milk through her pregnancies and I'm sure so did her mother, since I come from a long line of farmers on both sides. I feel totally fine eating raw milk cheeses from a certified dairy, and would drink raw milk as well if we drank milk- but my family doesn't do well with dairy (or soy) so we drink Rice Milk.

On the ancestors thing- my ancestors were dairy farmers and I do TERRIBLE with dairy as do my kids. So there's a hole in the argument...

Cathe- on the organic pasturized and raw not-organic cheeses- this is the same situation at our health food store. I chose the Alta dena hoping it was a small dairy not using BST.


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## mehndi mama (May 20, 2003)

Okay, I have a pet theory about using pasteurization & other agressive techniques to eliminate bateria & other pathogens from food - I think that with all these agressive techniques that have been used lately, that we have been progressively lowering our tolerance to pathogens.
The same theory applies to why some people get colds all the time - it is usually the people who have active social lives that don't get sick easily, and the ones that don't get out much tend to get hit with something every time they go out.
You have to have exposure to create resistance, and I think that is an important thing.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Wow - those raw milk articles were scary. I hate that every side has such convincing arguements. If you read Fallons stuff or rawmilk.org, it is so biased the other way. As for my raw milk experiences, one is my brother who has had severe reactions to dairy products all his life, worked on a biodynamic farm in Santa Rosa and drank raw milk and the yogurt and cheese made with it and had no problems. The other experience was personal, I got raw goats milk from a neighbor had had cramping and diarreah each time I tried it and so did my husband. Kids had no reactions though. However, I was scared and stopped getting it.

I guess this is all making me think that I just won't use dairy on a regular basis. Just occasional cheese, yogurt, etc. like I have been doing. I always get unhomogenized yogurt which is at least healthier.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Oh yeah - Mendimama - I think your theory has a lot of merit. I have read other things about people having less resistant because we don't let our kids get dirty anymore. We are too obsessed with cleaning and sterizing everything.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

I lived on a raw paleo diet for over 2 years and never got sick with food poisoning (it made me too energetic however and is socially isolating.)

Okay, I can trace my ancestry to Viking but don't do well with cow dairy or pasteurized goat dairy. raw works for me and my kids. We eat eggs raw, 30 hour cultured raw goat yogurt , some meat raw etc..

Everyone does what feels right for them.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Here's my rebuttal to the raw milk article. Dairy herds that sell their milk Grade A are tested for TB. If TB is detected, the herd is destroyed. The chances of getting TB from raw milk in the US are small.

I agree with mehndi mama's pet theory- my mom says this too- you get exposed to small anounts of these things and get resistance. If anyone should have gotten e coli it was us kids on the farm- we were slopping out in the cow pasture all the time. We never got it.

I also reminds me of how I couldn't drink the water in India- not a drop even from brushing my teeth or I'd get deathly ill, but the natives could drink it because they grew up with it.

I kthere is bacteria in the bulk tank. Its tested all the time. The bacteria is there- its there in the environment, too. Cows are part of the environment. However, I think the new way of farming with large farms (not pasture) and antibiotics and hormones might be making the bacteria stronger, more virulent, more dangerous.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

And also when animals who are natural grazers are fed a diet of grains, it changes their whole ph where pathogens such as E.coli thrive.

Bottom line for me- I don't eat raw animal products that are fed any amount of grain.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Okay, one of the articles that I linked to makes the point about tolerance to the bacteria in milk. The Canadian farmers who gave visitors raw milk did so because they and their families drink it that way and don't get sick. This doesn't mean that we all *should* have resistance to these bacteria, it just means that one can develop such resistance over time. I'm not sure that it really makes sense that everyone in our society should have resistance to food borne illnesses.

It's kind of like the principle of vaccination--and I believe that many here are opposed to intentionally introducing illnesses into their children's bodies in order to develop immunity.

The food borne illnesses that the articles I linked to did not include tuberculosis. They were campylobacter and rabies. I didn't know what campylobacter was so I looked it up. Here is the CDC page on campylobacter infection. Like most food borne illness--salmonella, for example--the only people who get really sick are those with poor immunity. *Like young children, or pregnant women and their fetuses.*

About the grain: that is a good point, Elainie. There was a New York Times article by Daniel Pollan on the raising of cattle. It was called "Power Steer"--I can't find a reprint, but the abstract is here. In it, he argues that the reason that "modern" grain fed cattle are also fed antibiotics is that their stomachs are not designed to eat corn. They get sick from their diets, and then are fed a ton of drugs to keep them alive. Then we ingest the drugs, making it possible for drug resistant bacteria to live in our bodies. So I understand why you wouldn't eat raw milk products from grain fed cattle.

Of course, E. coli is present in the intestinal systems of all mammals. At least, that's what I learned from this really nifty webpage explaining E. coli. it's by Jack Brown, a self- described "faculty guy in the Department of Molecular Biosciences" at the University of Kansas. (what a nice, unpretentious tone this page has! I'd like to meet him sometime.) he explains that some strains of E. coli are particularly virulent pathogens. One strain in particular is the one that has actually killed people, E.coli O157:H. But, you run the risk of food borne illness every time you eat a food of animal origin, or a vegetable or fruit raised using manure. Here's what Dr. Brown says:

Quote:

Basically, here is the problem: E.coli bacteria are everywhere in the environment. But, since they are such a common occupant of all animals, anytime we eat something, drink something, or touch our hands to something that has been either a part of or has been near where animals are, there is always the potential to ingest these bacteria - is a good reason for washing your hands now and then, huh?
It's true that the practice of feeding grain to cattle sets in motion a destructive chain, one that creates anti-biotic resistant disease. But it's also true that any animal food has the potential to carry some food borne illness. And, if the cows or goats have an illness, their milk can carry that too.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

By the way, I'm not saying that no one should eat raw milk products. I think under certain conditions they might be okay. If the person eating them is quite healthy, so that they won't get very sick from food borne illness. If the product is a raw milk cheese that has been made with mold in the traditional way, so that harmful bacteria are neutralized. (I realized that milk for yogurt has to be scalded before you make the yogurt, so you only get the lactobacilli you want, and not campylobacter or whatever.)** Or, if you are like MamaMonica and you grow up on a farm, you probably have resistance to the bacteria in the milk, so you can drink it raw with impunity. (Though I wouldn't drink raw milk from someone else's farm, under such a condition.)

It's just that this is a board with a large proportion of pregnant women and mothers of babies and young children, and most of us do not live on dairy farms.

I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that there is a health benefit to raw milk. One of the main articles on the realmilk.com site was from 1929. (!!!) Is the entire basis of NT research that was done by scientists in the late 20s and early 30s? research that looks, well, awfully anecdotal. I'm not a scientist (not at all!) so go ahead and tell me why I'm wrong.

**Edited to add: I'm sorry, Elainie, I had missed the part where you said that you make yogurt from raw milk. I was only going by the recipe for yogurt that I have, obviously it isn't a problem for you.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Captain, I don't like to debate but there are an awful lot of people out there who have healed serious illness with raw dairy products.

Also I don't make my own raw goat yogurt (I'm no yogurt expert) but I consume it for health purposes (I'm 34 weeks pregnant too) and give the yogurt to my children as well. I buy it . It's featured in Jordan Rubin's book Patient Heal Thyself and is part of his core plan (which I follow and have had good results eating this way.)

many years ago I had a freind who embarked on a healing path to cure herself of cancer using raw milk. Her boyfreind at the time was a well known ND (who has just written a book on raw milk cures BTW) and she had been a raw food vegan for over 30 years. At the time I met her I was teaching macrobiotics and we became good friends.
After several years on a macrobiotic diet her cancer spread and she decided to take this raw milk approach.

I was horrified to say the least, but a few months later she looked like a different person. Her cancer healed too and she remains cancer free today (over 16 years later.)

She no longer eats any dairy (because she moved and has no access to grass fed raw dairy.)

Anyway, if one is not comfortable eating raw dairy or other animal foods then just don't eat it.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

Captain, I don't like to debate but there are an awful lot of people out there who have healed serious illness with raw dairy products.
This is the debate thread. (See thread title.) that's why I'm posting in this way.

I'm curious about the health benefits argument. I accept that some people have experienced better health when they ate raw dairy. I just want to know how many, and does anyone know why. Because with the arguments that raw dairy is dangerous, we do know how many and exactly why. (Not so many, because of certain bacteria, etc.)


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

There's a huge difference between clean (from cows tested free of certain illnesses, milk handled correctly) and unclean raw milk. The article referred to made no mention of what kinds of herds were used in the surveys.

elainie- you say a cow shouldn't be fed any grains whatsoever. It makes sense. A farmer in the States that we used to get milk from fed his cows a small amount of grains. I figured as long as it's just a little it shouldn't do no harm. What feed IS appropriate besides fresh grass?
I'm trying to find some good quality stuff here in Sweden. Wow, didn't know it'd be so hard to even extract this kind of dietary information from unwilling farmers. Why is this? I called the place we've been getting our meat from and asked if an "organic buthchery" (as advertized in their brochure) also means organic meat. He wouldn't tell me!!! I figure, it's not organic obviously, but why be sneaky? At least the cows are grass-fed, humanely treated and the processed meat is additive-free so we'll keep getting it until we can find a different source. I was calling around last night, and it seems the only way to get organic meat around here is to buy half a calf or a whole lamb. We're thinking we'll have to go with that. The organic labelling institution here is pretty strict, no soy, but not sure if it means no grains.

cathe- the reaction you had to the goat milk you got is the same kind of reactions you get if you're lactose-intolerant. I get cramps and diarrhea every time I have dairy. Sometimes I can eat cheese one day and be fine though.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

What's odd is I have never had that reaction to any other dairy products - yogurt or milk in quiche, etc or even goat milk yogurt from a store.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Do you think that particualr goat farm was unlean? It could also be a bacteria that you aren't used to.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

morsan, unless the farmer owns a lot of land for pasture in a climate with year-round grazing, the milk cows are going to be fed alfalfa hay, corn silage and ground feed (dry grains with additives). Also, it ups milk production to feed grain, and farmers need to make a living, so they increase the milk production per cow by feeding more grain during the time the cows are at their optimum milk producation.

Most farmers decrease the grain when the cows are lagging in production or the grain goes to fat and a fat cow is more prone to health problems (this is per particular cow- cows are at various points in their cycles in the herd). They are more likely to be fed lower protein feed- hay with a larger proportion of grass or just pasture - when they are dry and waitng to calve.

Unfortunately on big factory farms, the cows sometimes don't get this rest period and are in production all the time until they are worn out in 3-4 years.

That's probably more than you wanted to know.

Also, there is definitely a different taste to milk and milk products depending on what the cows eat. I simply couldn't stand the taste of milk from cows fed fresh chopped corn or sudan grass. (Sudan grass or sudex, a hybrid- is another common feed)


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Mamamonica - I do think that was the problem. It is just this old guy who has a bunch of goats. I know he drinks the milk everyday but I don't think he's real santitary about containers and stuff like that.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

cathe- one thing worth thinking of is that people with lactose-intolerance can often tolerate cooked milk and fermented dairy. That's why I suspected you might be lactose-intolerant (to some degree). Also if you haven't consumed plain milk for some time (you were vegan for a wile right?) your body will stop producing lactase. In cultured dairy there's enough enzymes already.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

That could be Morsan. I do eat dairy products only rarely and I noticed last time I had some ice cream, I felt really yucky after. I was thinking it was from the sugar . . .


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

In the process of researching for this debate, I found this page:

http://www.nofamass.org/programs/rawmilk/index.php

If you scroll down, you will see that they include:

*a list of questions to ask raw milk providers to make sure that the milk is as safe as possible

*a list of links, including a link to the American Association of Public Health Veterinarians statement suggesting a ban on raw milk, and two sites that list raw-milk related food borne disease incidents

*the clearest statements, to me, of the health benefits of raw milk (which I still don't find compelling, but at least it doesn't sound like hocus pocus.)

*the one good argument for raw milk that I've seen: that it's easier for small producers to do raw milk, so buying it promotes small dairies. I think that's a good reason--though as I wrote upthread, I'd probably scald my local raw milk before I gave it to my child!

*names of raw milk providers in Massachusetts

Enjoy.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Besides the raw milk thing and the liver thing, I have some other questions about NT. Why do the NT folks think that animal sources of fat-soluble vitamins are superior to non-animal sources? And, why do they urge us to eat more special foods that are high in vitamins that we can actually overdose on?

Here is a chart of vitamin A values in various foods. If you scroll down the page, you will see that we actually don't have to eat much vitamin A to get the recommended value--keep in mind that this is a page from the United Nations, and their food organization is right now on a campaign to get people to eat enough micronutrients, including vitamin A.

This page from Ohio State University has a graph of where most people in the US get the vitamin A they eat. The authors of the Ohio State page say that most people in the US don't have trouble getting this vitamin, even though we tend to get it from vegetables (which is weird, because generally folks in the US don't tend to eat a lot of vegetables.)

It seems to me that 1) we can get enough vitamin A from fruits and vegetables without ever eating any animal's liver and 2) we aren't in danger of a shortage of vitamin A anyway.
This page contains a long article on vitamin A toxicity.
The author says:

Quote:

Chronic toxicity occurs after consuming smaller amounts of vitamin A for a long period of time. - several weeks, months or years. Vitamin A has a long biological half-life and it tends to accumulate in the body. The tendency of vitamin A to bio-accumulate suggests that chronic exposure to excessive amounts would be unsafe.
Since vitamin A is stored in the liver, chronic ingestion of megadoses may result in hepatic toxicities. The range of vitamin A doses leading to liver damage vary from 15,000IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000IU per day. [...]
Vitamin A toxicity can occur if diets extremely high in the pre-formed vitamin A, retinol, are indiscriminately consumed. Pre-formed vitamin A is found in animal products primarily liver. High intake of this form of vitamin of vitamin A among children results from overzealous prophylactic vitamin therapy initiated by parents.
Fish oil supplements may also contain high concentrations of vitamin A and can produce hypervitaminosis A following chronic excessive use in children.
Vitamin D is a different story. There has been recent research that shows that we don't get enough of it. But, and this should be so obvious to all of you lactavists, you can get enough vitamin D if you get 10-15 minutes a day of sunlight. I guess if you live in a northern climate, it would make sense to consider animal sources of vitamin D, since vitamin D deficiency is a real problem and can cause rickets.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I just had a thought on grains, and the problem with animals being fed grains vs. grass. Can someone explain the problem? All grains, with the exception of buckwheat ARE grasses- they are just the seeds of grasses. If animals graze, they would naturally eat some grain since they'd be eating the seeds of grasses along with the leaves.


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## allys jill (Aug 24, 2003)

the vitamin A that comes from vegetables differs from the vitamin A from animal foods. vitamin A in carrots is a pre-cursor to true vitamin A, is the feeling of some people.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

captain- the books (NT and Price's book)and articles on the website explains pretty well why we should get our fat-solubles from animal sources. I'm not sure exactly what it is that you find unreasonable and non-trustworthy. If you're a little more specific maybe we have something to debate. I don't mean to be rude, I just don't want to go ahead and state the obvious if you've read about the reasons to eating animal fat to get sufficient amounts of fat-solubles.

But I'll repsond to what you wrote about the RDI of vit A. The Price Foundation argues that these are too low, since traditional people consumed ten times more of the fat-soluble vitamins. Keep in mind to that these people have often been reported to have superior eye-sight (and conversly, many westerners have glasses). Again, this information can be extracted from the literature.

As allysjill wrote the vit A in carrots for example is indeed just a precursor. Many people, like infants, children and diabetics cannot convert this precursor to true vitamin A. You can find this information in NT (in one of the sidebars).

Also, Fallon argues that you can not over-dose on dietary vitamin A. The studies that state that you can are based on synthetic vitamin A (this is Fallon's argument, the study you site below states that you can overdose on even dietary sources, but it doesn't specifically state how the study was conducted and if they actually used dietary sources of vitamin A in any study).
But, yes, you can overdose on vitamin D.

To me, getting these vitamins from animal sources is crucial, but to you, getting the precursor vitamin A from vegetable sources only is fine...right?

cathe- drinking fresh milk is a new thing (because of refrigeration), so don't feel bad about not being able to drink it. Most people in the world use dairy in cultured form.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I am sorry that I posted a quote from that Malaysian guy. I have no idea who he is. Generally I try to stick with quotes and citations from websites I know better, like the UN or a major university or something.

I went back to read the Weston A. Price website. Here's what I'm quibbling with :

Fallon et. al. assert that vitamin A cannot be absorbed from vegetable sources (i.e., from pro-vitamin beta-carotenes.) It seems like there is widespread agreement among nutritionists that it's easier to absorb pre-formed vitamin A, such as you get from eating liver. But the basis for their concern is diabetics, people with poor thyroid function, and children who don't consume enough fat. Then they cite a bunch of people who think children should have low-fat diets. But I haven't seen a lot of reputable sources that say to limit children's consumption of fat.

On the other hand, the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization is on a big campaign to make micronutrients available, and they are especially concerned about vitamin A. The FAO thinks they can solve the world's problem with vitamin A deficiency by getting parents to feed their children mangoes and dark leafy greens, and by making fat (just fat, not animal fat--any fat!) available.

The reasoning that Fallon advances that this won't work? Cats can't synthesize vitamin A from beta carotenes. (Cats? How about people?)

Why is toxicity not a problem? Fallon says, because you would have to take 6 tablespoons of cod liver oil to have a toxic reaction.

?? six? That's not a huge number of spoonfuls! This is a fat-soluble vitamin, so it doesn't leave the system too fast. If FAllon says that children with _diagnosed_ vitamin A deficiency are " routinely given two 100,000-unit doses of retinol per year for infants and two 200,000-unit doses for children over 12 months." No wonder the routine administration of cod liver oil for children in countries where there is enough food has fallen into disfavor.

The NT people are arguing for administration of 50,000 IU PER DAY--or 10 times the amount of the US RDA. This doesn't seem smart to me. I think if you knew you had a vitamin A deficiency, it might be worthwhile to add all this animal fat to your diet. After all, it's a pretty serious deficiency. But on the other hand, are you going to self-diagnose and maybe get too much--that's also not good.

I am going to open another post about vitamin D.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Regardless of what the lit. says, I developed toxity from a daily dose of 2 and half Tbsps of cod liver oil. My doctor had me go off it.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I did a little more reading on vitamin D. My reading suggests that the NT people are right about vitamin D deficiency, that the RDA levels are set too low. (I was really sure about that 10-15 minutes of sunlight! I guess if you read/hear something enough times, it sounds reasonable.) I found a website that follows up on the claims of Reinhold Veith, the Canadian doctor that Crispin Sullivan cites in his article (the one on the Weston A. Price site.)

http://www.vitaminsinamerica.com/news/vitamin_d.htm

So I still don't get, why animal sources? Sullivan says that he tests patients for vitamin D deficiency, and then supplements with diet and sunlamps.

There is still a risk of overdosing on vitamin D, but you can't force your body to make too much vitamin D through sun exposure. You could potentially take too much of this vitamin through your diet.

I guess I have learned something new about the vitamin D question from this discussion, and I might think about doing more research. My family does eat eggs and some fish, and this might be enough for us. I am going to make sure we have some time to play outside in the sun!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

More on vitamin A overdose and cod liver oil: This article from the Journal of the American Medical Association describes a study of women in the US who had taken too much vitamin A in the form of supplements (including cod liver oil) had a higher incidence of hip fractures.

This was a follow-up on a Swedish study that showed that people who took a lot of cod-liver oil had more hip fractures. People who got their vitamin A by eating beta-carotene rich vegetables were not susceptable to these fractures. I learned about the JAMA article from this page I must confess that I don't know the orientation of the author. But the Jama thing seems legit...


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

There was an article on Vit D absorbtion (from the sun) and skin lightness/darkness in Scientific American a few months back. The problems arise (other than being indoors too much) when people whose ancestors lived in a certian latitude move to another one. Those whose ancestors evolved in northern latitudes can absorb Vit D from the sun with more efficiency if they live there than someone whose ancestors evolved in the tropics (if both people are living in the north).

If the person form the North moves to the tropics, they are at higher risk for skin cancer if they are out every day without protection.

I'm confident that just by being outdoors every day my kids are getting enough Vit D, without supplementation.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Captain optimism, that study about hip fractures scared me off cod liver oil as well. I was prescribed it for my son's eczema (I'm bf-ing him) and dutifully took it, hoping he'd find relief. It didn't help much and I'm afraid it harmed my body.

I'm also not convinced these fish oils are toxin free- they say they are, but what excatly are they testing for? The known contaminents? It seems every decade there is a new horrible contaminent discovered in animal tissues- fish being the worst- and I don't really want it built up in my body as well.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Gosh, thos thread has gotten long and I haven't even had a chance to catch up on the last few pages.

Can you have to much Vitamin D, of course. And if you don't have enough calcium in your diet it can be really dangerous (as in the hip fractures) If I were to supplement with Cod liver oil, I'd only be taking 1/2 a tsp. daily and only in the wimter months and I'd have myself checked. That said I'm concerned about the oxidation levels in PUFA oils such as cod that are not stable (not really of contaminants so much because certain companies do test for every known contaminant)

You can check out Krispin Sullivans site for more info on Vitamin A+D
http://www.krispin.com/

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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Hmm, that's interesting. Well, I guess I'm still debating what's currently on the NT website, since that's most of what I have to go on. I'm glad that Sullivan is repudiating some of what is on the site, as it's troubling to see how much they are flogging cod liver oil.








T
Mamamonica, I don't think you have to worry that you have done permanent damage by taking the cod liver oil. First, the hypervitaminosis page on vitamin A that I posted from the NIH says that the treatment for taking too much vitamin A is--to stop! They say that your prognosis to recover is fine.

If you are worried about osteoporosis, there is one excellent, universally recognized prevention for that, and that is weight-bearing exercise. If you do yoga, lift weights, or even take long walks (especially long walks carrying your baby!) you can actually make your bones denser.

(I didn't realize just how incredibly miraculous this was until I was recovering from a broken bone and I read up on bones. They get as strong as they need to be--if you use your body, the bones get stronger. )


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by morsan_
*captain- the books (NT and Price's book)and articles on the website explains pretty well why we should get our fat-solubles from animal sources. I'm not sure exactly what it is that you find unreasonable and non-trustworthy. If you're a little more specific maybe we have something to debate. I don't mean to be rude, I just don't want to go ahead and state the obvious if you've read about the reasons to eating animal fat to get sufficient amounts of fat-solubles.
*
Morsan, you are not the slightest bit rude, and I thank you for your response. Indeed, it prompted me to think about what is making me so uncomfortable about just trusting that the NT website's explanations are correct, what I find untrustworthy. Bear with me.

I find the whole argument about the ethnic eating really uncomfortable. First, I cringe at the terms "primitive" or "native." Just my view of the 1930s and the 20th century, and race, and colonialism...etc. That's all on a visceral level. I understand that Price was arguing that it wasn't all about race, but about diet. But, he and his followers still make arguments about "ancestry." So I'm already suspicious, and that's a suspicion that has really nothing to do with dietary advice.

I am suspicious that Price's account of what people were eating in the 1930s was skewed by what they ate when they had company (so to speak.) I wonder whether the people who were eating all these animal foods in the 1930s grew up to be as healthy as the adults in their communities, and whether those adults ate the same diet.

My dad, who was born in 1936, also grew up on a diet very high in animal products, including butter, milk, cream, fish oil, meat fat, etc. That was a normal diet in the industrialized world at that time! My dad is in pretty good health--since his bypass surgery. He also has osteoporosis and he's a 67 year old MAN. (As you know, osteoporosis is way more common in women than in men.) When my grandmother was pregnant with my dad, she ate milkshakes, eggs, liver, etc.

By the way, that was in Cleveland, where Price was a dentist. The diet he described among the primitives was pretty similar to the diet among the "civilized" people. Everyone who could afford to eat meat, did. In the 1930s, people were still taking cod liver oil. Further, people eating meat in the US in the 1930s weren't consuming a ton of antibiotics. (I need to check that I'm right about that one, but I think they still grass fed, etc.) They certainly didn't eat "oleo" because they thought it was gross--margarine in that era wasn't allowed to be sold colored yellow. Jewish people, like my family, ate goose or chicken schmaltz on their bread if they had eaten a meat meal. Okay, that's enough of that tack. You get my point, I hope. We all ate that way, and it promoted heart disease, just the way that that the Framingham Heart Study suggested--plus nobody had such great teeth, eyesight, etc.

Another suspicion: meat. I am just suspicious of arguing that meat is necessary to health. There are just too many studies of vegetarians that suggest that they are in better health than omnivores in this society. Maybe NT people would argue this is because the ways we raise animals are making the meat most people eat, toxic/less vital. That is a compelling argument, but it still looks to me like vegetarianism is a good deal.

I have really enjoyed getting to look up all these interesting sources on vitamins. I've learned a lot from this discussion!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*If you are worried about osteoporosis, there is one excellent, universally recognized prevention for that, and that is weight-bearing exercise. If you do yoga, lift weights, or even take long walks (especially long walks carrying your baby!) you can actually make your bones denser.

(I didn't realize just how incredibly miraculous this was until I was recovering from a broken bone and I read up on bones. They get as strong as they need to be--if you use your body, the bones get stronger. )*
nak

glad to hear that! I do yoga, and have for years and walk a few miles a day- pushing a stroller or carrying a toddler.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

captain- I'm not sure whether debating this matter is of any use. The reasons you state for not finding NT nutrition the "right" diet, are very much on an intuitional and emotional level. And that's good, it's best to listen to that little voice inside, you know your own body better than anyone else.
I agree, there's no way at all to know whether Price was truthful about his findings and wether he intepreted them right. When I first logged onto that site (when I was on acupuncture treatment and following my chinese doctors nutritional advice) I read the article about Price and how he travelled the world looking for good teeth. I thought, yeah whatever, especially because of the frequent mention of "primitives" etc. For me, what was convincing was that there were other sources of similar findings (of a later date). The way I read the chapters on various traditional diets in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, I never got the notion that it was representing any special diet (like when you have guests over). Nothing points to it. Then, there are other sources to compare with (you can find it on the website and in NT).

In the thirties in modern civilisation, if people could afford meat they could probably afford sugar and refined flours too.... There was alot of canned foods (denatured) too.

There may be studies proving that vegetarianism is healthier for us, but I just have a hard time relying on studies that compare one group of people to another when the groups only have a few dietary factors in common, kwim? Alot of vegetarians are more health-conscious than the regular meat-eater. It's also crucial to know for how long someone has been vegetarian in a study. Another VERY important factor is constitution at birth. So, on the other hand, there are many studies proving that vegetarianism is less healthy than a healthy omnivorous diet. It's all up to the consumer to judge I guess. I just know I couldn't go back to being vegetarian because I need to have more protein and much less carbs in my diet to heal myself. In our times with the overconsumption of refined carbs and white sugar, many people's adrenal glands suffer to the extent that carbohydrate-dense foods cannot be tolerated by the body. A vegetarian diet does tend to be high in carbs.
The switch from a hunting-gathering life-style (where the diet was higher in fat and protein) to an agricultural one (with more carbs) enabled the human population to multiply at a much faster rate, because carbs are more easily available than animal protein and fat. To me, this is not a good thing, but obviously it was necessary since humans have too big of brains for their own good. (Just a sidenote and not meant to piss anyone off).


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Morsan, You have summed it up exactly how I feel.

In the meantime I have to wait until my dh finishes his own research and book (he travels to remote areas of the world studying peoples health/diets etc...) and in fact just came back a few days ago from the remote jungles of central and South America where he analyzed native foods, their constitution, health, teeth etc.. and as Price observed as long as they stick to their traditional diets, teeth are beautiful and cavity free (no teeth brushing either), bone structures are robust, women give birth with ease (he spent quite some time talking with native women in regards to birthing/pregnancy because I'm currently pregnant)

One factor that keeps coming up from the places he's been (very remote places in South America, Central America and Asia) is the ratio of animal foods.

In these particular places it accounts for about 35% from what he has analyzed. But it's there regardless.

Some of the hunter/gatherers he spoke with (through a guide of course that spoke the language) go days without animal foods and call it meat hunger.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I am slightly suspicious of all this research. So much of research is biased by the belifs of the researcher, and so many things turn out in hindsight not to be tre.

The ultimate truth is what works for your body. If you get healthier, its the right diet for you. There are a lot of people thriving on veg. diets- Dr. dean Ornish revearsed heart disease using it. People thrive on omniverous diets as well- and maybe some people eat just meat- maybe they thrive, too.

I also don't think people were eating a lot of refined carbs in the 30s. People were still on the farm and ate what they could grow- eggs, milk, potatoes, root vegetables, apples. My family ate potatoes, cabbage, some meat, sausage (homemade and smoked in the smokehouse), milk, butter, eggs in the 30s- saur kraut, pickles- whatver they preserved themselves. It was the depression. There wasn't money to buy things- a lot was grown and bartered. People foraged to get food. Canned goods or refined flour were EXPENSIVE. If you had no money you had to get your own whole foods and store them.

For meat, you had to raise and butcher and store it in an ice house or smoke it. Food was harder to come by and took work- physical work- to get. People are much more seentary now and for meat, they just go to the supermarket or fast food- not even cooking it- expending no calories in the prepartion of it. There is no way we can eat the same diet as people who worked for their food and have the same health results.

Maybe that's why a veg, diet is better now- it is fewer calories, more fiber and more of a whole food diet. The vegetarians I know are much leaner than the eat eaters. If you are sedentary and eat what people ate in the 30s doing hard physical work you are probably going to have problems.

OK- spouting off my opinion again!

On the diet- personally, I do terrible on a high meat diet or a pure vegetarian diet- a mostly veg. diet with bits of occasional animal protein works. Regardless of what the research says. I can incorporate parts of NT and other diets.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I guess it doesn't matter whether most people could afford in the thirties. Price WAS nonetheless comparing native diets to the American diet of his time. He started out in the early thirties with his studies in the world. Depression started 1931, right? And it didn't last one entire generation. So, people didn't live entirley on a depression-diet. Times changed... The diet that Price used in comparison was a diet with lots of refined flours and sugar, canned gods etc. I don't think he was lying about this typical American diet, but I guess it's possible...
Someone mentioned that people could afford lots of meat during this time (I think captain optimism) so I figured if people could afford that I'm sure they could afford white flour, or especially sugar. You don't have to be rich to buy sugar. It's all about priorities. Sugar dampens your appetite. Many of the poor "displaced" people that price studied consumed white sugar.

elainie- that's really interesting what your husband is doing. Please let us know more of his findings. It's good to know that there are still people out there living traditional lives.

A vegetarian diet is NOT by any means a diet that is necessarily higher in fiber and lower in calories. It's also not true that it's always a more whole food diet. many vegetarians consume processed soy (one example) and a steak from organic, grass-fed beef is a much more wholesome source of protein. If a whole foods diet is characterized by foods that have been minimally processed, I easily could say that an omnivorous diet is more wholesome since you need to process plant foods more than animal foods to make them digestible. meat is actually more digestible the more raw it is. Plant foods are often high in nati-nutrients and many vegeatbles have a tough cellulose-membrane, which all require some form of preparation, often times lengthy (soaking of grains, legumes and nuts, cooking of tough vegeatble).

There's nothing that supports the idea that we SHOULD be sedentary. We don't need to compare our lives to farmers. Farmers work more than hunter-gatherers. I figure that as agriculturists we started consuming grains because it gave us more energy to work more. Still, yes we are more sedentary than is healthy for us. I don't feel like we should pick a diet that fits a sedentary life-style. Personally I don't pick a diet, I pick a life-style.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

It's quite true that folks in the 1930s did eat a lot of refined flour and sugar. Canned goods producers were also pushing their products. In fact, we know they ate a low-fiber diet because of the popularity of laxatives in 1930s advertising.

I'm just saying that the emphasis on the current NT people on meat seems misguided. It's not clear that meat is the so-called X-factor. It may be that the other part of the NT ideology, the part that emphasizes whole foods and ecologically raised foods, is the more important piece.

One thing that seems weird to me is that NT folks are really opposed to vegetarianism, as an unhealthful diet. The Vegetarian Resource Group conducted a poll in 1994 (admittedly, almost ten years ago!) and found:

Quote:

We can be 95% sure that 0.3% to 1% of the population is vegetarian. That is, they never eat meat, fish or fowl. This is much lower than the three to seven percent who consider themselves vegetarians, or the 20-30% who buy vegetarian products, but still a pretty high number, which translates into approximately one half million to two million vegetarians, as we suspected. Taking into account other polls we have looked at, we believe this figure as reflective of the number of people who never eat meat, fish, and fowl, and is probably accurate.
Three to seven percent of people in the US were vegetarians. That means, most people eat meat! Even among those who identified as vegetarians, most actually ate meat!

Okay, well, I know that is only marginally relevant. It just seems to me like the whole "low fat" argument. We have this thing going on in the US right now, where people say, "The reason that people in the US are so fat is that they eat a low-fat diet, like in the food pyramid." But we haven't seen that people actually DO eat a low-fat, high fiber diet, like in the food pyramid. We see that people eat so-called "low-fat" foods--foods that are very refined and high in sugar.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Well, because Sally Fallon et al. base most of their arguments on traditional diets, it's no wonder they look at vegetarianism with suspicion. Most traditional people are/were not vegetarians! The groups who were the healthiest were the fish-eaters, second red meat-eaters, third, those who mainly lived on plant foods. The last group were most likely very healthy by western standards though.
For me it makes total sense to rely more on traditional wisdom rather than on the scientific, western, conventional dietary theory. This is the reason why I have chosen to eat according to some of Fallon's theories. I just can't put much faith into something that has not been tried for several generations, especially since it takes 50-60 generations to adapt to a certain food.
NT is about "optimal" health. It takes you, your children, your grand-children into account. It's about biulding good health now and for your future off-spring and their's. So, they don't specifically say that you're unhealthy if you're vegetarian, just that you'll have some deficencies, that may or may not cause you serious health problems down the road. Which translates to me that many, many vegetarians are able to live healthy lives, as long as they stick to whole foods, prepared properly. there are vegetarians who use NT too.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

X factor in meat? Sorry, but I've never heard of that. That's not where X factor is from.

Some species of seafoods and the centifuged butter oil (ghee) of grazing animals consuming rapidly growing spring grass , yes.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Morsan, another thing to take into account these days is that a lot vegetarians and vegans are eating fortified foods. When I was vegan I didn't eat any fortified foods (because I really believe in a whole foods diet) and I did end up deficient.

So it's very hard to compare IMO someone eating a whole foods vegan diet versus traditional people eating a whole foods non vegetarian diet because it would be very hard to find such a group as that.

How many vegetarians and vegans out there are not eating ANY refined or packaged foods?

This is not a criticisim, I'm really wondering. My dh found no packaged foods at all in these small villages not to mention the rainforest where of course there is none either.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Back to an earlier topic... marine oils.
My brother got poisoned really bad a couple of months ago and developed severe joint pain. He just started taking mussle oil a couple of weeks ago and the results were amazing. He hardly felt any pain at all. To make sure it was the oil's benefit he stopped taking it for two days- and the pain returned. Now he will not stop taking it. He said his friend took it for asthma and it greatly relieved his problems too.
Has anyone ever heard of mussle oil? It's supposed to be from really clean waters off of the coast of New Zealand. Does it contain any fat-solubles like fish liver oil? My brother said he had tried other "fish oils" (not sure what kinds- he called the mussle oil fish liver oil, so...) before and didn't find this kind of relief. Does anyone know what's special about mussle oil? It's really big here in Sweden.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Elainie - I was a vegan not eating processed foods for about 5 years but got so thin, tired, and hungry that I started eating sugar which resulted in my getting very anemic and weak. I also didn't eat much protein and fat and a lot of raw foods - which living in Massachusetts was not smart.

I continue to eat a whole foods diet but have added eggs, fish, and poultry plus fats like nuts, seeds, butter, olive oil, coconut oil, and avocado and am much healthier.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Morsan, I am not sure about green lipped mussles. I really should know. I remember reading something about them a few years back but my life has been a sleepless blur for quite a while now. In terms of pollution I think our seas are quite good. Not that I think that is as a result of any environmental policies of our govt. More there are only 4 million ppl here & we are quite isolated so we've had less chance to stuff things up. Having no nuclear power helps too. There's one of those health food shops that sells all the vitamin pills in town. I will go in there & ask them next week.


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