# belt made a convert out of me.



## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

Until now,i have not really been a full on gd fan. I kind of rode the fence and believed that there IS an appropriate time and place where (carefully controlled) physical discipline is necessary.
But the other day my husband spanked dd (5) with a belt. I really wasn't sure what to say.I was kind of stunned. I didn't really think he would ever actually do it. SEEING it happen right in front of me kind of pushed me over the edge. I just can't imagine letting that be a part of the way we treat our children. (that being said, I HAVE used a switch on her twice before, but for much more serious offenses, like repeatedly kicking and hitting and refusing to stop after being told and moved to another location.) Watching that though felt like being a kid again and seeing my parents using that kind of retaliation. It wasn't discipline, it was just retaliation. I always said that if he hit my kids, i would leave. But this is confusing. Around here, everyone uses this kind of discipline. People here think that you are a bad parent if you DON'T spank your kids. Thats how I was raised. And it wasn't like it was anything life threatening or anything. She didn't even have any bruises, or whelps. just 3 smacks with a folded up belt. In reality, I probably wouldn't have been so upset, but that it was all because she was playing on this big rock and made her brother fall off. it seemed totally inappropriate to me. He didn't even care until ds interrupted our conversation crying. I am feeling really hostile right now, and guilty, and confused. I don't want to live this way, but I don't know what to do about it.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Good for you for wanting to change. I'm nak right now, just wanted to respond quickly with some encouragement and reassurance that you are heading in the right direction. bbl...


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

after spending years spanking my children i saw the light so to speak. i am having a hard time GDing but i have started by saying and promising myself to never ever hit my kids again. i also talked to my kids about it. there is a no hitting rule at our house now. for everyone here me included. after that i am lost. i have ideas, gotten suggestions etc. i am trying though and my kids respect that. things are slowly getting better around here. good luck.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm coming into this conversation biased, of course. But I really think neither of you should ever hit your child again. Ever. No switches, no belts, big, little offenses, it doesn't matter.

I want to address your post more fully but the thinking in it is hard to untangle. Why would "carefully controlled physical discipline" which is to say, hitting, ever be okay? Is it okay for me to hit you if you don't get out of my way if it's controlled?

And although of course I am glad your child is all right, the fact that physical damage didn't occur doesn't mean there is no damage. It is damaging. It is not okay to hit people.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm glad you've realized how wrong this is.

I agree- you BOTH need to decide to NEVER (never never never, not for anything) hit your children again. Period.

It's never okay.

-Angela


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

If you need additional motivation to stop... My father hit us with a belt. My DH was totally sold on no physical discipline before we even had kids. He took his belt off in front of me one night while we were dating. Turned around to find me cowering in the corner of the bed, totally shaking. I was 33!! But something about the particular sound of that moment brought so much back. Needless to say, completely changed the plans for the rest of that evening and his plans for disciplining children forever.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm gonna break from the tradition of this thread.

First thing you need to do is sit down with DH and explain how you feel now. There's a good chance he'll resist but this is they key point. He needs to know that you will no longer accept any form of physical punishment.

Second, you need to do research. Read books on GD and search through the older threads here, basically find ideas and how to implement them. If he's willing, get DH involved in this too as it will help him see it is possible.

Finally you need to get rid of anything (ie the switch) that has been used as a punishment tool before.

Understand that the kids will probably notice the change and theres a chance they'll try and make it difficult for you, but stick to your guns. How ever you plan to deal with misbehaviour, stick with it and keep it up and your dc will begin to see that "no spanking" doesn't mean "I can get away with whatever I want".

Good luck, and I think its a wonderful thing your wanting to change.


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionessMom* 
after spending years spanking my children i saw the light so to speak. i am having a hard time GDing but i have started by saying and promising myself to never ever hit my kids again. i also talked to my kids about it. there is a no hitting rule at our house now. for everyone here me included. after that i am lost. i have ideas, gotten suggestions etc. i am trying though and my kids respect that. things are slowly getting better around here. good luck.

thanks. I hope that we can find better ways to cope than the ones we were taught as children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I'm coming into this conversation biased, of course. But I really think neither of you should ever hit your child again. Ever. No switches, no belts, big, little offenses, it doesn't matter.

I want to address your post more fully but the thinking in it is hard to untangle. Why would "carefully controlled physical discipline" which is to say, hitting, ever be okay? Is it okay for me to hit you if you don't get out of my way if it's controlled?

And although of course I am glad your child is all right, the fact that physical damage didn't occur doesn't mean there is no damage. It is damaging. It is not okay to hit people.

ok I really do understand that this line of thinking is hard for most of the people here to understand. And I really do want to find better ways to discipline than these. I agree now. I understand that it just isn't right for us to demand one kind of behavior from our kids and model something else. SEEING him do this for something that I would not even classify as an offense is what made me reconsider my own opinions on the subject.

And to help you see what made me believe that spanking was okay in the past.... you would have to understand how I grew up.

I grew up in a southern baptist household in alabama. My family and every family I ever knew spanked their children when they behaved badly. some more sever than others. My parents used belts, wooden spoons, the little wooden paddles that come with the ball on a rubber band attatched, hands, switches. I was taught from my earliest memories that the bible says that parents should spank their children rather than let them act badly. I was told that all of the criminals of the world were that way because their parents had not disciplined them properly. I read in Proverbs that a father who loves his son will discipline him because a spanking will not kill him, but being without restraint will. I was told that the spankings we got were nowhere near as sever as the ones our parents and grandparents had gotten. I believed that this was not something that should be used as a "cure-all", but that it was the ultimate punishment for very bad behavior, and that as long as we behaved well, we would have nothing to worry about, because there would be no spankings except for when we did something we had been explicitly told not to do. I knew a few families who did not spank their kids. Those kids bit other kids, talked disrespectfully to everyone, rarely ever minded their parents , and were generally very rude and unkind.

I have been in the grocery store with my dd screaming on the floor because I refuse to buy her candy, and when she gets up and punches me in the stomach, and kicks me, I have thought "so all those crazy people who don't believe in spanking would have me believe that it is ok for her to hit me like this, but that it is abuse for me to get a switch and swat her 2 times so that she understands this is unacceptable.?!!!!" Yeah, maybe she learned those tantrums from us as parents (i see that now), but I can see how that could make a convincing argument for spanking. Please try not to judge those of us who are just learning this line of thought. We have a lifetime of bad training to undo, and that doesn't happen overnight.


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## darkviolets (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
If you need additional motivation to stop... My father hit us with a belt. My DH was totally sold on no physical discipline before we even had kids. He took his belt off in front of me one night while we were dating. Turned around to find me cowering in the corner of the bed, totally shaking. I was 33!! But something about the particular sound of that moment brought so much back. Needless to say, completely changed the plans for the rest of that evening and his plans for disciplining children forever.


I have the exact same reaction. I get physically sick around things that remind me of the abuse I went through as a kid. Flashbacks, etc. Even reading the title and the first post in this thread made me feel icky. I think it really surprised my DF when he saw me react that way the first time, but I can't help it.

To the OP: kudos to you for making this decision. I have scars from my childhood that will never heal. I have been able to forgive my dad for what he did because he has apologized and I know he sincerely regrets it.. But I can never forget. I still have nightmares about it occasionally.

And I totally second what MusicianDad said.. You'll be going through a transition period and may be confused as to what exactly to do instead of spanking. It's hard.. Even with as much as I hate what happened to me and am one hundred billion percent committed to not hitting my kids, I have slipped up. I do have the urge sometimes. You have to retrain yourself in a new way of thinking. It will take time.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

You're going to need to get your DH on board or he'll keep hitting the kids, even if you don't. Most importantly, both of you need to learn new ways of discplining the children- it's not enough to just "stop spanking"- you need to have positive ideas of what to do instead. "Gentle Discipline" isn't the same as "no discipline".

Also, remember that ingrained habits are very hard to break. If you find yourself spanking again when you're overwhelmed, go easy on yourself and get right back on track with GD.


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I'm gonna break from the tradition of this thread.

First thing you need to do is sit down with DH and explain how you feel now. There's a good chance he'll resist but this is they key point. He needs to know that you will no longer accept any form of physical punishment.

Second, you need to do research. Read books on GD and search through the older threads here, basically find ideas and how to implement them. If he's willing, get DH involved in this too as it will help him see it is possible.

Finally you need to get rid of anything (ie the switch) that has been used as a punishment tool before.

Understand that the kids will probably notice the change and theres a chance they'll try and make it difficult for you, but stick to your guns. How ever you plan to deal with misbehaviour, stick with it and keep it up and your dc will begin to see that "no spanking" doesn't mean "I can get away with whatever I want".

Good luck, and I think its a wonderful thing your wanting to change.

ok, how do I get dh to stop the belittling and yelling? these seem to be all he knows. (we have had major arguments over this in the past
since although i believed there was justification for spanking (i know this is strange, but in a loving way), i could see nothing good ever coming from shaming, cursing and belittling.) dh seems to fall into this a lot though.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 









You're going to need to get your DH on board or he'll keep hitting the kids, even if you don't. Most importantly, both of you need to learn new ways of discplining the children- it's not enough to just "stop spanking"- you need to have positive ideas of what to do instead. "Gentle Discipline" isn't the same as "no discipline".

Also, remember that ingrained habits are very hard to break. If you find yourself spanking again when you're overwhelmed, go easy on yourself and get right back on track with GD.

Absolutely -- I find that even though I've always said I wouldn't hit that I have had to work really hard at it. My first instinct when I'm super frustrated is to strike -- and I've lost it a couple of times, I confess. And you definitely need a game plan for a new approach because you don't want no discipline, you just want different, gentler discipline. Given where you are starting from, I would recommend Kid Cooperation by Elizabeth Pantley. Its short, practical, and very readable. It also retains the idea that parents have authority, so its not such a radical departure then some of the other GD books. You may get there, but I think people have a hard time going from spanking to, say, consensual living, all in one swoop!

The other thing to be prepared for is that your child will test your new resolve. Be ready for a rocky patch and don't give in to temptation to say "This doesn't work". It does work, but it will take time and experimentation before everyone gets there!

Good for you for being open to change and starting down the road to change!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
ok, how do I get dh to stop the belittling and yelling? these seem to be all he knows. (we have had major arguments over this in the past
since although i believed there was justification for spanking (i know this is strange, but in a loving way), i could see nothing good ever coming from shaming, cursing and belittling.) dh seems to fall into this a lot though.

That's a hard one. To be honest, I'd be inclined to send him to his room until he learns to act like the adult he is.

The only suggestion I can come up with is for you to interrupt when he starts on the belittling and take over the issue with the children.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
and when she gets up and punches me in the stomach, and kicks me, I have thought "so all those crazy people who don't believe in spanking would have me believe that it is ok for her to hit me like this, but that it is abuse for me to get a switch and swat her 2 times so that she understands this is unacceptable.?!!!!" Yeah, maybe she learned those tantrums from us as parents (i see that now), but I can see how that could make a convincing argument for spanking.

Not that I think you need more convincing, but just in case, and maybe for your DH, my counter to this is kind of a biblical thang, like, "turn the other cheek" and "two wrongs don't make a right", "whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me". KWIM? You're the adult in the relationship - if she loses it physically and strikes out at you, it's up to you as the adult to show her it's not right to do by NOT lashing back at her. All hitting your kid when they misbehave teaches them is...that hitting someone is OK when they do something you don't want them to.

I'm glad you have decided to parent more gently. The ladies and gents here are a great resource for situational advice, and the book sticky is a great place to start. My personal favorite falls towards the stricter side of GD, Anthony Wolf's "The Secret Of Parenting"...the subtitle is "How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments" and I think it's a terrific book to bridge the gap for parents who have grown up in ungentle homes to grasp the GD concept.

Congratulations for breaking the cycle.


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

is anyone here familiar with the book "to train up a child" by michael and debbie pearl? I really don't like this book. Never have. They are my mom's favorite authors though. She gave me a copy of this, and a subscription to their magazine (which i throw out). I was just wondering how you would answer people with that kind of mindset because that is what i am going to be up against. I am pretty sure that my dh will not be the only one i am going to have to convince that spanking is no longer allowed.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Just want to add, that my DH was also raised to believe that spanking was something that just had to be done, and resisted my attempts to convert him until he saw how much better my way worked.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
is anyone here familiar with the book "to train up a child" by michael and debbie pearl? I really don't like this book. Never have. They are my mom's favorite authors though. She gave me a copy of this, and a subscription to their magazine (which i throw out). I was just wondering how you would answer people with that kind of mindset because that is what i am going to be up against. I am pretty sure that my dh will not be the only one i am going to have to convince that spanking is no longer allowed.

I've heard enough about them to know that the name Pearl, makes me feel dirty.

My own way of dealing with people telling me we should be spanking is more often then not "Different people see different things differently. I for instance, see my child as a human being"

I tend to have little patience with people who try and change my opinions too much though.

ETA: If it's not your Dh then really all you have to do is point out that they are your children to raise as you see fit and make a point that you will be very careful about who you let watch your children so you don't have to worry about someone 'chastising' them in what you consider an inappropriate manner.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
thanks. I hope that we can find better ways to cope than the ones we were taught as children.

ok I really do understand that this line of thinking is hard for most of the people here to understand. And I really do want to find better ways to discipline than these. I agree now. I understand that it just isn't right for us to demand one kind of behavior from our kids and model something else. SEEING him do this for something that I would not even classify as an offense is what made me reconsider my own opinions on the subject.

And to help you see what made me believe that spanking was okay in the past.... you would have to understand how I grew up.

I grew up in a southern baptist household in alabama. My family and every family I ever knew spanked their children when they behaved badly. some more sever than others. My parents used belts, wooden spoons, the little wooden paddles that come with the ball on a rubber band attatched, hands, switches. I was taught from my earliest memories that the bible says that parents should spank their children rather than let them act badly. I was told that all of the criminals of the world were that way because their parents had not disciplined them properly. I read in Proverbs that a father who loves his son will discipline him because a spanking will not kill him, but being without restraint will. I was told that the spankings we got were nowhere near as sever as the ones our parents and grandparents had gotten. I believed that this was not something that should be used as a "cure-all", but that it was the ultimate punishment for very bad behavior, and that as long as we behaved well, we would have nothing to worry about, because there would be no spankings except for when we did something we had been explicitly told not to do. I knew a few families who did not spank their kids. Those kids bit other kids, talked disrespectfully to everyone, rarely ever minded their parents , and were generally very rude and unkind.

I have been in the grocery store with my dd screaming on the floor because I refuse to buy her candy, and when she gets up and punches me in the stomach, and kicks me, I have thought "so all those crazy people who don't believe in spanking would have me believe that it is ok for her to hit me like this, but that it is abuse for me to get a switch and swat her 2 times so that she understands this is unacceptable.?!!!!" Yeah, maybe she learned those tantrums from us as parents (i see that now), but I can see how that could make a convincing argument for spanking. Please try not to judge those of us who are just learning this line of thought. We have a lifetime of bad training to undo, and that doesn't happen overnight.

I grew up in a similar environment, though I was lucky enough to be a "good" child and was thus rarely spanked. Still, I will not hit my child, and I won't let anyone else hit her either. That just doesn't fit with the kind of person I am trying to raise her up to be.

The correlation between violent criminality and physical discipline is exactly the opposite of what you were raised to believe. I think Gavin De Becker talks about the link between physical abuse of children and the violent adults they grow up to be. In particular, if a child commits patricide, it's virtually guaranteed that there was a history of physical abuse.


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## monkeymommy (Jul 12, 2006)

It sounds like you truly DO have a lifetime of bad training to undo...good for you! I really sympathize, I grew up in an abusive fundamentalist "christian" household, where my grandmother turned a blind eye to my uncle's sexual abuse, but told me if I saw my grandfather naked after a shower, I would be turned into a pillar of salt like Lot's wife.







DH was raised very similar to the way you were, cutting his own switches and everything. It's very hard for him not to hit our son, but now he tries with all his heart to be gentle.

I just wanted to offer you some support, and give you some links to articles you might find helpful...they helped us immensely:

http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/ Dr. Alice ****** has done some wonderful work in the area of child abuse, and its implications on society as a whole. She refutes the idea that, as you were told, "the criminals of the world were that way because their parents had not disciplined them properly"...she cites studies that show 90% of prisoners were abused as children, and when you account for repressed memories, the figure is probably more like 100%.

http://www.awareparenting.com/articles.htm Dr. Aletha Solter is another fantastic one, and she has a great list of alternatives to punishment that you can even print and post on the fridge!









http://thesacredmoment.blogspot.com/...ce-******.html A little deeper reading, VERY insightful, and will certainly bring about alot of inner revelations for those of us who were abused.

HTH!


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## 3lilmonsters (Feb 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
is anyone here familiar with the book "to train up a child" by michael and debbie pearl? I really don't like this book. Never have. They are my mom's favorite authors though. She gave me a copy of this, and a subscription to their magazine (which i throw out). I was just wondering how you would answer people with that kind of mindset because that is what i am going to be up against.









Smile and nod. Seriously, you probably aren't going to convince your mom for a loooooooooooooooong time that the Pearls' unique form of sadistic child-rearing (and ftr, I HAVE read To Train Up a Child front to back, so I feel informed enough to make a judgement here) isn't the best. And quite honestly, if she has no children at home, I don't feel there is a pressing need to. I'd make sure that she is not left alone with your child, and when around her I would probably deal with discipline issues behind closed doors. She doesn't need to know what you're doing back there.

Just remember that children misbehave! That's what they do! (Adults misbehave, too!! And usually worse, but that's a topic for another post







) No matter HOW you discipline them, they aren't going to be perfect -and if they are, that's when you should start worrying







.

For right now I would focus my attention on converting your husband. Let him know that you aren't so sure about spanking anymore, but the belt and switches are - in the words of Dr. Phil - a huge deal breaker. Then I would start researching the parenting style you are looking to adopt, and as you do try to put it into practice. After all, you can't really expect him to do anything you don't yourself do yet. And as you get more informed and more committed, I would share with him what you are learning and your dd's response to it. For example, letting him know that dd did 'x' and after a time out (or whatever) and discussing it with her her behavior improved 'y'.

There are some great mainstream and/or religious resources for non violent discipline. Those might be a good place to start.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
I have been in the grocery store with my dd screaming on the floor because I refuse to buy her candy, and when she gets up and punches me in the stomach, and kicks me, I have thought "so all those crazy people who don't believe in spanking would have me believe that it is ok for her to hit me like this, but that it is abuse for me to get a switch and swat her 2 times so that she understands this is unacceptable.?!!!!" Yeah, maybe she learned those tantrums from us as parents (i see that now), but I can see how that could make a convincing argument for spanking. Please try not to judge those of us who are just learning this line of thought. We have a lifetime of bad training to undo, and that doesn't happen overnight.


I totally get that change doesn't happen overnight. You are among friends here I think.









Actually the argument "hitting my child will teach her to behave and not hit me" doesn't do it for me as a convincing argument. Here's why: I could choke my child to get him to behave. I could chain him to a bed to make him behave. I could rape him to get him to behave (and actually as a survivor of sexual abuse, this last did happen to me).

Simply "making a child behave" does not, for me mean that something is right or good to do. There are many, many ways to control people smaller or weaker than ourselves. The question for me is, what will help children learn to make good decisions and have self-discipline. And I don't see where violence factors into that.

I'm not an expert in fundamentalist interpretation, but I have read some on these so-called Christian ways of parenting.

I don't think much of the Old Testament idea that you need to hit your kids. Some people interpret "the rod" as being the word for a shepherd' staff pointing the way... that a parent's role is to point the way. There's so much weird stuff in the Old Testament, like Judges 19 where the guy offers the drunk men his concubine and virgin daughter.

Also Jesus did not hit people that didn't agree with him or behaved badly. In my opinion people who read the Bible and take away the message that kids should be hit are missing the point. I say that not to challenge you personally but to tell you that there are alternative readings of the Bible.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
is anyone here familiar with the book "to train up a child" by michael and debbie pearl? I really don't like this book. Never have. They are my mom's favorite authors though. She gave me a copy of this, and a subscription to their magazine (which i throw out). I was just wondering how you would answer people with that kind of mindset because that is what i am going to be up against. I am pretty sure that my dh will not be the only one i am going to have to convince that spanking is no longer allowed.

What these people advocate is beyond abuse. It should be against the law. There are no words for what it is, it is so wrong. I believe strongly that every parent should be able to make smart, well-researched choices for their own child, but this type of abuse is absolutely criminal. If an adult were to treat another adult as they instruct you to treat your children, that adult would be IN JAIL.

I would not leave my children alone with someone who believes in that for five seconds. It is never, ever okay to hit a child. I would recommend watching a DVD by Alfie Kohn called Unconditional Parenting. Both you and your DH, just like watching a movie one night.


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

I haven't read the other responses.

My husband and I just watched a dvd where the guy talks about WHY punishment (and rewards) don't work. It's a bit pricey, but well worth it.

The dvd is Unconditional Parenting. There's also a book with the same title by the same authro.

http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-...8087790&sr=8-2


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## 3lilmonsters (Feb 24, 2007)

In all honesty, Alfie might be a little hard to, uh, grasp, coming from a Pearls point of view. I was raised in an abusive mindset, but even though I couldn't bring myself to spank in the beginning, nor could I grasp that there should be no punishment at all. In the interest of preserving the family unity, I think I would really go with a more gentle transition (like Sears). It's not going to be good for anyone if she becomes adversarial with her dh when there are other options. It will be easier for the child to transition to no spanking if she's not also worrying about her parents on the verge of divorce, and it will certainly help mom commit to the no spanking if she's not worrying about the war she's started with dh.

I'm all for standing up for the kids, but I'm also for doing it in the most effective and sustainable (and the least turbulent) way.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

OP, please go and read over at Gentlechristianmothers.com and aolff.com (Arms of Love Family Fellowship). There is a TON of information regarding Christian doctrine and how the bible DOES NOT command us to hit, hurt, or punish our children. (I'm going on an assumption that you are still Christian here. If you aren't, it will still give you a lot of ammunition for those family members who will throw that false teaching at you.)

Discipline means 'teach', as in, Jesus teaching his disciples. He never hit them, belittled them, or was anything other than gentle with them. Even when He KNEW Judas would betray Him, He allowed natural consequences to occur, rather than to punish him. The rod verses have been taken SO completely out of context. Spanking as we know it today is NOT biblical, it started in the Victorian times, and has a sexual history.

The punitive mindset is a VERY hard one to get out of. However, working towards that goal is something you will not regret. Gentle discipline doesn't mean kids are allowed to bite, hit, punch, ect. My kid does NOT behave that way at all, and we don't punish in any way. Besides, I know PLENTY of punished children who do these things, it's all well within the range of 'normal' for toddlers and preschoolers. That being said, just because it is normal, doesn't mean we sit back and do nothing! We do correct, offer different ways of dealing with anger, frustration, ect. I can't tell you how many parents I've stopped in their tracks asking them this, If spanking 'worked' why do you have to do it over and over again? I get the comment so much that talking about it isn't 'effective' because my dd may repeat the behavior next week, but so do those kids who are being hit! And it speaks VOLUMES when my 3 year old gets angry, and her reaction is to hold your hands, squat down to your level, and say, "I'm angry because you did not listen to my words. Let's talk about it and find a solution."









I pray that you continue on this feeling. God has given us (especially mothers) an intense instinct to protect our children from harm. It's why a baby's cry is so insanely disturbing, He made it that way! God is a God is love, grace, and mercy. As He is the ultimate example for a Father, we should strive to parent in that same way. As Christians, we are called to be Christ-like, so when I have a question on how I should act, I can literally ask myself How would Jesus handle my child right now? And I always find a gentle way.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

It's awesome that you are rethinking discipline, and want to be gentler with your kids








It might be work at first, but you seem very genuine in your desire to make some changes. Even if you "mess up" you can keep trying- just vow not to do it again, and try to figure out how to deal better next time. We all mess up sometimes.

There is a fabulous thread here that talks about parts of the bible that are typically used to defend spanking, and what they really mean. I'm going to try to find it. Not that you have to convert your mom (though I do agree with the pp to not leave your kids alone with her), but it's nice to have some ammo, if only for your own peace of mind.

As for your dh, best of luck there.
One book that might help there is Secret of Parenting: How to Be in Charge of Today's Kids--from Toddlers to Preteens--Without Threats or Punishment.
It seems to be more appealing than, say, UP, to someone who may think that giving up physical punishment= giving up control, and that giving up control is a very bad thing.

Ok, I'm off to try to find that thread.

eta- there are several threads if you search for "bible" in the GD forum.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3lilmonsters* 
In all honesty, Alfie might be a little hard to, uh, grasp, coming from a Pearls point of view. I was raised in an abusive mindset, but even though I couldn't bring myself to spank in the beginning, nor could I grasp that there should be no punishment at all. In the interest of preserving the family unity, I think I would really go with a more gentle transition (like Sears). It's not going to be good for anyone if she becomes adversarial with her dh when there are other options. It will be easier for the child to transition to no spanking if she's not also worrying about her parents on the verge of divorce, and it will certainly help mom commit to the no spanking if she's not worrying about the war she's started with dh.

I'm all for standing up for the kids, but I'm also for doing it in the most effective and sustainable (and the least turbulent) way.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
One book that might help there is Secret of Parenting: How to Be in Charge of Today's Kids--from Toddlers to Preteens--Without Threats or Punishment.
It seems to be more appealing than, say, UP, to someone who may think that giving up physical punishment= giving up control, and that giving up control is a very bad thing.

And







: to this too!


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## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

I just want to let you know that I completely respect and applaud your decision to change. It may be difficult to ge your DH on board, but I agree that you should start with reading some GD books and trying to get DH to read them (or watch videos). I know for me, I could never allow my DH (who had an abusive upbringing)to behave in a way that I thought to be harmful to my children. It is sometimes difficult for my DH, but he is comitted to GD and healing his own childhood wounds. In our house, if he has his button pushed and is too angry to discipline, we have an agreement that he goes away by himself to cool off and I step in with some GD. It works really well. People are able to change.

BTW, I was one of those people who was brought up without physical, or ANY punishment of ANY kind. I am not a criminal...not so much as a parking ticket. I am not wild or out of control.(I did become an artist, however...) I treat people well (most of the time) because it's the right thing to do...not because I'm afraid of the consequences if I don't.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby* 
BTW, I was one of those people who was brought up without physical, or ANY punishment of ANY kind. I am not a criminal...not so much as a parking ticket. I am not wild or out of control.(I did become an artist, however...) I treat people well (most of the time) because it's the right thing to do...not because I'm afraid of the consequences if I don't.

Hey, me too!







Well, except the artist part. But everything else, yes!!!


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:

I don't think much of the Old Testament idea that you need to hit your kids. Some people interpret "the rod" as being the word for a shepherd' staff pointing the way... that a parent's role is to point the way.
Or, one way I've heard it....a shepherd dosn't whack the sheep over the head but gently nudges back to the herd or back in line if it strays.


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

I just want to add another response of congratulations for taking on the challenge of breaking the cycle.














I have never hit my children, but I have screamed and said mean things. I made a point to use a quiet voice when I talk to them which helps me stay calm. It worked. I haven't had a slip up in a long time. ( My Grandma who raised me screamed, slapped, dragged me by my arm..., but she also rescued me when I was older and was being woefully neglected by my parents and she nurtured my soul, so we healed together)
OTOH, I can be very violent with my DP when I am irrational and he is trying to help me. Mostly it comes from trying to escape. He doesn't even have to be following me, I just run from room to room and have occasionally taken off in the car. (I am mentally ill also btw) He is just trying to keep me safe and I love him dearly. I learned 'opposite to emotion action' and now when I am really angry or freaking out I go hug him and I don't let go until I feel better. It's hard to scream at or hit someone you love when your arms are around them. It makes me cry just to type it. I hope it gives you some ideas. Maybe when your children are hurting each other you can have group hug time?


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I'm so glad you are trying to change!

Quote:

I have been in the grocery store with my dd screaming on the floor because I refuse to buy her candy, and when she gets up and punches me in the stomach, and kicks me, I have thought "so all those crazy people who don't believe in spanking would have me believe that it is ok for her to hit me like this, but that it is abuse for me to get a switch and swat her 2 times so that she understands this is unacceptable.?!!!!".








I know how you feel! The only time I've hit my child was a split second after he kicked me in the face with poop on his foot, and boy, in the moment I felt totally 200% justified!!







It is really, really hard to resist the temptation to hurt the person who has hurt you.

But here's the thing:

By hitting her, you are not teaching her that hitting is unacceptable.

You are teaching her that when somebody does something you don't like, you hit that person.

It's not that we think it's okay for her to hit you. It's not! Your job is to show her and tell her that it's unacceptable. Doing it yourself undermines your message.


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## isisreturning (Jul 16, 2007)

Congratulations - isn't it a relief to realize there's lots and lots of ways to parent your children - and thankfully, ways that are both non-violent AND effective.

And: hang in there.

I have been on the GD road for about a year now and it has been a long road. Change doesn't typically overnight. Your DH will likely be many steps behind you. It will be challenging, because your kids will continue to do all their very normal behaviors and misbehaviors, and you will continue to be surrounded by all the same people who will give you that expectant look like, "so, what are you going to do about your child's behavior?" You will feel pressured to revert to the "old ways".

The "Unconditional Parenting" video was very helpful. Heartbreaking, immensely guilt-inducing, but helpful. For me AND DH. Didn't make things change overnight, but did plant some very radical seeds... You may be able to check it out of the library. It's also worth buying and watching twice a year or so.

I, too, had to unlearn that style of parenting you grew up with. Thankfully, the GD perspective is now more instinctive and ingrained. I still get frustrated with my kids, I still get impatient, they still do things that make really mad sometimes... I just don't feel the urge to spank anymore.

Having done things the spanking/yelling/threatening/punishing way and the GD way (though I'm admittedly imperfect at it), I can say two things:

1) doing things GD is sooooo much better. Better meaning it's been much more effective at bringing out the best in my very spirited, super active and challenging son. Better meaning it's been much better for our relationship. Better meaning I sleep better at night and finally feel like I'm really being a good parent to him.

2) DH has come a long way, too. My leading by example, and his seeing that the GD way works better, and my continued gentle (and sometimes not so gentle) encouragement of him to do things in a GD way - all of these have brought him farther along the road. Strive to never ever hit your kids again, but don't be surprised if it does happen again. Like a pp said, just take a deep breath and get back on the GD road.

Some insights that were helpful to me:

--The first shift is thinking long-term instead of short-term. (what kind of person do i hope ds grows up to be? and how can i interact with him to help him grow into such a person?) when i focus on the short-term, immediate moment (how can i get him to do or stop doing xyz now?), i usually end up acting exactly how i would NOT like him to behave as a kid or grown up (aka: controlling, bossy, demanding, unloving, not listening, impatient, non-sharing, negative, nay-saying, hope killing, power-mongering, violent).

--The second shift is realizing that parenting - and discipline - is not something i do to ds, but is rather a way of working with him. he is part of the relationship equation. and he is a whole human being who deserves respect, deserves to be listened to, and has a right to his own feelings, thoughts and ideas. as do i. the magic - that is, what causes growth and development of maturity, morals, values and sound judgment - is in figuring out how to navigate the needs and wants of BOTH (or multiple) people. how do we work together to find a solution that is safe and respectful and sustainable for both of us? doing it this way, however, requires much more creativity. it is challenging for me and i need more practice. it is "easier" in a sense, to just try to impose my will on him. of course, that way is also "harder" because it degrades our relationship.

--The third shift is LETTING GO and GETTING SOME PERSPECTIVE... letting go of my ridiculous expectations of what he "ought" to be capable of doing (like sitting still and being quiet at a restaurant for two hours). letting go of my need to stop him from doing something that will make a mess or be loud or will otherwise stifle his joy and creativity because heaven forbid it might inconvenience me. letting go of getting mad about the proverbial spilled milk. getting perspective about what he might be needing, feeling, or even just trying to get on his level and understand his actions from his point of view. he's not deliberately trying to break his toy - he's an engineer trying to figure out what happens if he bends it this way or that way. he's not trying to hurt his little sister - he's seen me tickle her that way and he's trying to have fun with her (and he just needs help learning how to do it gently like mom does). and yes, he is "doing it for attention" - and he deserves it - so i need to put down whatever i'm doing and give him some attention!

--The fourth shift has been to realize that all children - regardless of their individual differences and personalities - inevitably go through certain behaviors. it doesn't seem to matter ONE BIT what kind of parenting style one uses - kids still have temper tantrums, don't share, hit, refuse to help pick up, scream and get wild, throw things, interrupt, get noisy, break things, spill things, cop an attitude, whine, dilly dally, and otherwise behave in ways that are unpleasant and distasteful to us grown-ups. if a kid acts that way even if you spank them, put them in time out, take away privileges, yell at them, use behavior modification techniques, do nothing, talk gently to them, lovingly guide them or use any other parenting technique in between, then the only difference in those parenting techniques is in the QUALITY OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR CHILD and WHAT YOU ARE MODELING TO THEM ABOUT POWER AND HOW TO INTERACT WITH OTHERS. if you know me at all, then you know what it is i hope to model for my children. reminds me of the quote, "you must be the change you wish to see in the world." - aka, I must be the person i want my children to be. i must behave the way i want my children to behave.


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## ma_vie_en_rose (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Just want to add, that my DH was also raised to believe that spanking was something that just had to be done, and resisted my attempts to convert him until he saw how much better my way worked.

That would be my DH, too. He would occasionally spank his DD when she was completely out of hand. I spoke at great length with him about how I felt on the issue, and that I had a game plan for GD. He was open to it because he, quite honestly, felt sick to his stomach whenever he _had_ to spank her. It was the last thing her wanted to do, but he did not have the knowlege of other options. Once he saw what I was able to do with her, he was very interested in following my lead and learning more.

I am happy to say that my DSD has not been spanked in over 5yrs and our DDs have never been spanked. We have very well behaved children for the most part (at least they pretend to be in public LOL). They all know one of our big house rules is not to touch one another unless it is to love on the other person. We want our kids to learn respect because they were given it not because they are in fear of what happens if they don't _show_ it.


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## sothisislove (Jun 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
OP, please go and read over at Gentlechristianmothers.com and aolff.com (Arms of Love Family Fellowship). There is a TON of information regarding Christian doctrine and how the bible DOES NOT command us to hit, hurt, or punish our children. (I'm going on an assumption that you are still Christian here. If you aren't, it will still give you a lot of ammunition for those family members who will throw that false teaching at you.)
God is a God is love, grace, and mercy. As He is the ultimate example for a Father, we should strive to parent in that same way. As Christians, we are called to be Christ-like, so when I have a question on how I should act, I can literally ask myself How would Jesus handle my child right now? And I always find a gentle way.









Thank you!


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## twead (Apr 23, 2007)

i just finished reading Grace Based Parenting. Wow! what a great book. Biblically based but not 'ram it down your throat religion'. I'd give you the author but dh is reading it on the plane. Anyway, it really solidified that we would be a 'no hit' family. DS is only 10mo so discipline hasn't really come up, other than in conversation. DH thought that spanking should be reserved for the big offenses. I asked him how he could we teach our son that hitting was wrong if we hit him. It was as simple as that, now he is reading the book. Maybe the logical approach might work for your dh like it did mine. Anyway,







for your decision.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

OP, some pp's inspired me to post to you in response:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I'm glad you've realized how wrong this is.

I agree- you BOTH need to decide to NEVER (never never never, not for anything) hit your children again. Period.

It's never okay.

-Angela

In addition to the promise you make to yourself and your children to NOT _spank_, etc... start thinking in terms of what you _will_ do, instead. Saying "I'm/we're never hitting anymore, ever again" is ambitious. And as you are discovering, creates questions and also some blank areas. When you remove a thing, a behavior, no matter how much it needed to be removed, you have created a hole, a void... and if you spend all your time thinking "I'll never do it again" the hole gets bigger, the questions don't get answered, and you risk letting the old behavior back in, just to patch the hole, since you haven't come up with approaches that can fill that hole.

So, my advice is to begin visualizing the NEW reality you _want_ to create. Affirm it to yourself. Constantly, whenever you can, look in the mirror and say things like "I am going to use words, calmly. I am going to walk away when I am too heated. I will count to ten... I will call a friend who understands... I will visit the GD forum and get some advice if I need some inspriation... I am a peaceful loving parent who is growing stronger everyday."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
ok, how do I get dh to stop the belittling and yelling? these seem to be all he knows. (we have had major arguments over this in the past
since although i believed there was justification for spanking (i know this is strange, but in a loving way), i could see nothing good ever coming from shaming, cursing and belittling.) dh seems to fall into this a lot though.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
That's a hard one. To be honest, I'd be inclined to send him to his room until he learns to act like the adult he is.

The only suggestion I can come up with is for you to interrupt when he starts on the belittling and take over the issue with the children.

Yeah, Mama-Bear needs to come out a little and protect the little ones from Papa-Bear, in those instances. I don't like inter-parent intervention, generally... it seems to rob the other parent of key-developmental mile-stones... but with yelling, belittleing, hitting and such... there's no slack in my house. Dh barks and even belittled a bit sometimes, and I am quick to just step right in front of dd and quietly say "That's enough... excuse yourself." If he won't, I take her by the hand and we go for a walk til Daddy cools off.

And when _I_ have been the one to blow it and yell etc, I have gone down on one knee and said "Dd, I am out of patience, and I want to keep you safe, I am walking away, or you can walk away... but I love you too much to hurt you and/or let you hurt me." She has sent _me_ away before, "YOU walk away Mommy!" <--all snarky... and I say, "Ok"... and I walk away. And in a few minutes, we reconvene and talk about what things were missing, like compassion, kindness, pateince, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahwpen* 
<snip>I was just wondering how you would answer people with that kind of mindset because that is what i am going to be up against. I am pretty sure that my dh will not be the only one i am going to have to convince that spanking is no longer allowed.

The nice thing about being a parent, now, is that while you are still technically someone else's child, you're in charge. Of yourself... of your life... of how you chose to parent. Part of RE-parenting ourselves after years of living under that kind of mind-set, is realizing that the world will NOT come an end if you deviate from the way you were raised. We start with ourselves, first, because for us, for the ones who _were_ abused, that first reaction HAS to be quelled when it involves the behaviors we endured. We don't have to live up to anyone else's expectation of what parenting _ought_ to look like...

This thread is like a support group for some of us: I am a new mama today. Check out this link. Here, we are mutually accountable for our actions, and support each other through the changes, going from making horrific mistakes to inspiring one another and being inspired. Join us.

Here is a link to an old thread (locked now) that you may find some gems in... Wu Wei put in some real work on this one, and you may really enjoy her wisdom and insights, look on page 2: Spanking

And lastly, I recently joined in as a teacher in at a 3yo-12yo day camp focusing on the Virtues Project. I posted about it here: Virtues Parenting. Here you might find some verbage to really help you evolve your approach and fill the hole...


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## MidgeMommy (Mar 22, 2007)

Gentle Discipline, to me, gives off a weak sound. I think you will have a better time understanding and working through the reasons to eliminate corporal punishment from your parenting if you have hard evidence of its damaging effects and reasoning not to, above and beyond just other people's judgements.

I know that you see how it affects you emotionally to watch/engage in it, but maybe it will be easier to persuade your DH with an 'expert' opinion. Good luck.









http://www.romow.com/education-blog/...n-good-or-bad/

"Most psychologists believe that corporal punishment may result in: resentment against the parents resulting in a more rebellious behavior; using physical violence to assert one's self; and decreased interest of children to use peaceful means to resolve a conflict.

The AAP stated that corporal punishment undermines other forms of disciplinary act in which may be even more constructive compared to the former. It also said that the use of physical violence for disciplining children may result into a more addictive effect since many studies revealed that children may experience more craving for physical pain which will in turn force them to provoke their parents more."

stophitting.com

nospank.net

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
If you need additional motivation to stop... My father hit us with a belt. My DH was totally sold on no physical discipline before we even had kids. He took his belt off in front of me one night while we were dating. Turned around to find me cowering in the corner of the bed, totally shaking. I was 33!! But something about the particular sound of that moment brought so much back. Needless to say, completely changed the plans for the rest of that evening and his plans for disciplining children forever.

This exactly. Just the sound still brings me to tears. I had much the same reaction when DH was playing around one day, snapping the belt in the same room as me. I turned into a crying little 5 y/o right in front of his eyes. DH used to get the wooden spoon or whatever else was handy (broom, spatula) and we have decided together that our DD deserves better than that. I haven't gotten "the belt" since i was probably 6 because my mom divorced dad and he moved away. So just a few years of that treatment leaves a permanent mark.


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