# Is dh on a power trip?



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Dh is always very worried about his authority with dd. He's of the opinion that he should be able to make any rule or give any direction to dd that he chooses, and that I should back him up regardless of what I think or feel.

So for example, dd loves mandarine oranges. We buy a case of oranges packed in pear juice at the organic food store when we go into the city. She will eat a can of them 3 times per day, as snacks and as side dishes to meals, until they're gone. Next time in the city we buy more.

So dh thinks that's 'too much' for her to eat in a day. Not because they're bad for her (it's fruit, for god's sake), not because they're expensive. But just because he thinks that's too many times per day to eat them. As though we were talking about candy bars instead of canned fruit.

So she asks for them after supper tonight and he says no, she can't have any more today (she's had 2 servings today). I say "Oh it's okay, honey. She just wants a snack before bedtime. That's as good as anything, and it's what she wants to eat. What's the harm?" He gets angry, dd gets upset - not about the oranges but because daddy is mad at mommy.

Knowing dd, I won't be surprised if dd never eats the oranges again. She's very sensitive that way. Now what used to be this fun treat for her is going to be this painful reminder of daddy yelling at mama, with her in the middle feeling like it's all her fault.

Okay, long story. But this is a recurring theme for us in a million different ways. Dh is constantly making up these ridiculous 'rules' about things and laying them out there like some kind of line in some invisible sand that dd has to stay behind. It's literally revolting to me. I was raised pretty consensually, and this arbitrary patriarchal oppression stuff just makes my stomach turn over.

Of course we've talked about this a hundred times. Ideally I'd like to be able to help him feel more secure so that he didn't feel this need to dominate a 3 year old. Short of that, I don't know if it's better for dd for me to just always align myself with dh to keep the peace, or to reinforce her world view that rules should make sense and that individuals should be able to make decisions about their own lives and actions, within reason of course.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

This is such a hard one. I wonder if you and your dh can agree to discuss rules or decisions regarding dd together when dd isn't there. If you two are struggling with these issues, maybe this can be a sort of ground rule while you work through your different parenting approaches. Also, it sounds like the way you were both parented is very different...this drives so much of what we instinctively do as parents and taking a good look at our pasts is really helpful in being conscious of what is motivating us to do certain things. Have you two tried counseling about this?

I think the process of how you two handle parenting is more important that the specific issues that you disagree about. It is distressing for a child to see conflict between parents...it's natural to have conflict but if it turns to yelling it can be scary. I would talk with your dh about how you two can have these conversations without dd being there. I think otherwise, your dd will find herself aligning with one of you (probably you) and that is not what your dh wants, I imagine.

Another thought I had was what if instead of taking another side from your dh, you could maybe model for your dd how to understand where dh is coming from in his decision-making. I.e., dh, do you feel these aren't a very healthy snack before bed? What would be better do you think? Let's look at the can, is there a high sugar content here? etc. I guess just trying to understand why he is making this decision. I always say to my ds that he can disagree with me or ask me why I've said "no" and I'm happy to explain. If I don't have a very good reason, then we'll make a different decision together. I think this gives him some tools to negotiate and also keeps him from feeling that he's being controlled arbitrarily.

I think your dh's need to be in control and authoritative probably has roots in his own childhood. It's a big leap to go from that to a place of parenting more consensually.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I believe that we try to control others when we feel out of control.

Pat


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Wow. That sounds hard.









What I would do with my dh- (not sure if it would work with yours...) is I'd set aside some serious time to talk and talk about this. Explain how you don't think it's a big deal. Ask his concerns. Etc.

Maybe it would work better in writing or email?

good luck!

-Angela


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## thismomwrites (Oct 25, 2007)

My DH tends to be the same way.

One of the hardest lessons for me to learn as a parent is to let my DH be a parent in his own way. We are two separate people and we handle things differently. This difference isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, and I don't even think it's confusing to children as long as we don't fight about it too much.

It's hard for me to just let DH enforce an arbitrary rule, like your example of the canned fruit, that I don't think is a big deal, but you know what...he is a father and can make decisions about how to raise his children and how he wants his relationship to be with them. (And I'm talking about regular issues like the canned fruit issue, not something major like if he belted the kids. I'm referring to run-of-the-mill differences between parents.)

DH and I try to talk about parenting issues when the kids aren't around, but we found that once the situation has passed, our tempers have also passed and there isn't much to discuss. So the lesson is, unless it's a really big deal, let DH be a parent. We do agree not to undermine each other, even if we happen to disagree.

You aren't going to change him by words anyway, IMO. The best way is to lead by your example.

Finally, one thing that really helped in my conversations with Dh is explaining that as a mom, I have instincts like a mama bear. If I think someone, even DH, is being unfair to my child, it's natural for me to jump in the situation. He totally understood this and it helped him be more patient with me when I was impatient with him and his rules.

Good luck.


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## anne+arun (Feb 13, 2007)

The short answer to your question is "yes" in my opinion your dh is on a power trip. However this is not to say it is not coming from (in his view) the best of motives. So now the long answer...

I am a dh who used to be into authority and consistently like they were gods! I have since effectively had a personality and parenting total transplant but still remember some of my motivations back then:

1. i was heavilly into "respect" and felt that my opinion should be respected by my dd (obviously i did not get that respect is earnt through connection and trust and tried to enforce the perception of it instead).

2. i perceived that my dp was permissive with her parenting and was almost over compensating (since dp has acknowledged that she does have permissive parenting issues so there was a basis to this, though my reaction did not help matters)

3. fundamentally i was coming from fear and lack of trust. Fear in everthing really and an overwhelming need to protect my dd. This is often a male thing of a (misguided and distorted) feeling of responsibility

4. My view that a parent was a sort of "rock" in a childs life, so believed that it was better to have united fronts, be absolutely rigid and be clear on something individually & together... even if it turned out to be wrong. I felt that this was giving my dd security and stability. (Now im much more into consistent flexibility)

All this might be irrelevant to your dh but i guess *im suggesting that something is motivating him and he perceives that his action is the best course that he is aware of or prepared to consider.*

You say you have talked about it a lot. At the same time you (understandably) use descriptions like "ridiculous" and "patriarchal oppression" which while i might agree with, probably does not assist getting beyond talking and into hearing/ understanding.

I love Covey's quote, "seek first to understand, then be understood." Your dh currently seems incapable of understanding / appreciating your perspective, i wonder if you can break the impasse? Once you really get to the core of his motivation with less judgement (easier said then done) then perhaps you might have a more constructive dialogue.

oh and btw - the stuff that initially turned me around on the consistency question was Thomas Gordon's Parent Effectiveness Training... but of course this might not click with him.

good luck
arun

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http://www.theparentingpit.com


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

Your dh currently seems incapable of understanding / appreciating your perspective, i wonder if you can break the impasse?
I also think the OP seems incapable of understanding her dh's persepective.

I highly doubt he is on a power trip. He is probably legitimately concerned about her eating habits. *I* don't think it is healthy to eat the same food 3times/day until it is gone. It sets up a "binge" mentality (eat it until it's gone).

Not to mention that canned oranges are high in sugar. Even natural sugar like pear juice is still sugar. Plus, if she is eating canned organes all the time, she is probably missing out on eating other FRESH fruits.

I would discuess this with your dh and daughter and come to a compromise. However, I do think you need to respect his viewpoint, just as he should respect yours. He likely does have good reasons for his decision and isn't doing it just to control her.

I also think it is pretty important for each parent to respect the other's decision, in small matters like this. I would be pretty ticked if I said "no, you can't do X now" and dh said "oh, go ahead, it is no big deal". I trust my dh not to make parenting decisions just for the sake of being controlling and he trusts me not to do the same. Even if we disagree, we respect the others' decision and realize that they probably have a good reason for making it (even if we don't know what it is until we discuss it later).


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Wow, Arun, thanks so much for your post. My dh and I have had similar battles, and it's hard for me to put myself in his shoes. He thinks I'm too permissive, I think he's too focused on authority. We grew up in totally different homes too, which contributes to the deep seeded feeling of being 'right' on this one. It's hard to admit your own parents were wrong, you know?
OP, generally, I let dh have his opinion, his 'say' if you will regarding small things. It took a LONG time for us to get here, and I still struggle with not stepping in, but it's a work in progress. DH does not parent exactly the same way I do, and while it can be frustrating to me, it's ok. He loves his daughter, I know that. He is trying just as hard as I am to do the right thing, and I have to at least give him that much. Sometimes he puts silly rules on dd, rules or restrictions that I don't have for her. In these instances, I try very hard to go with what he said. I don't have to agree persay with the rule, but I can back him up. For example, in the mandarin oranges situation, I might have said "Daddy doesn't think it's a good idea to eat them again, since you've had them twice already. How about some cheese/apple/whatever?" The next day, if I was with dd and she wanted 3 servings of oranges, I would have no problem with it. So dd would learn that I'm ok with some things that daddy isn't. Thats ok for me. Daddy plays rough with dd, he throws her up in the air, swings her in a towel, and teaches her crazy acrobatics tricks. He also has her doing flips and stuff on the bed. But I don't. I've seen her bump her forehead one too many times. So she knows to wait for daddy to get home for the crazy things.
Now, this doesn't mean that dh and I dont talk about this CONSTANTLY. Currently our disagreement is on saying 'please' 'thank you' and 'I'm sorry'. I believe modeling is best for teaching. He feels the need to remind her. I hate it, it grates my nerves to hear "What do you say????" Every 5 minutes. But honestly though, I don't think it's doing any harm, it's just a different way of teaching her. She will say 'thank you' and I'm sorry' to me on her own accord, and I'm satisfied that she is learning plenty by just watching/hearing me. Now if dh wanted to punish or spank or what ever, then, no I wouldn't back him up, and he knows that. I wouldn't allow it. But we are in agreement regarding that, so it's not a problem.
Anyway, I know it's really hard. We have been there, and it's still a constant struggle. However, I found that when I really gave dh more credit and tried to take his suggestions more often, he felt more empowered and was more open to taking mine. Plus he didn't feel he had to 'control' dd as much anymore. He is still much more authoratative than I am, but we are coming to terms with our differences, and working on ways to parent dd together, despite them. HTH


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think dh and I are similarly motivated.

It seems to me that his 'imperialism' is neverending and sort of feeds on itself. The more rope I give him, the more he hangs himself (and dd). It feels as though if I weren't here to counter him, he would govern every moment, every word, every action that she makes. I'm sure the reality isn't that extreme, but it feels that way to me, and I think to dd as well. He is an extremely controlling person by nature.

To him I think it feels as though he has this tenuous control over dd which is constantly threatened by her desire to be independent. If he 'loses' the mandarin orange battle, then he opens the door to complete lack of respect, juvenile deliquency and chaos. He's afraid to ever compromise or let go because he sees it as losing ground.

It's interesting that he and I wound up together. We're virtually polar opposites in many ways.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Of course we've talked about this a hundred times. Ideally I'd like to be able to help him feel more secure so that he didn't feel this need to dominate a 3 year old. Short of that, I don't know if it's better for dd for me to just always align myself with dh to keep the peace, or to reinforce her world view that rules should make sense and that individuals should be able to make decisions about their own lives and actions, within reason of course.

You've talked about it but have you listened. Does he say I'm on a freaky power trip? Or, what does he say. I think rather than trying to convince strangers on the Internet that you are right about everything and he is wrong about everything, it would make more sense trying to have a conversation with him and approaching it with a real open mind and the willingness to listen. My guess is the "right" is probably somewhere in the middle ground between where both of you are. It may well be he has legitimate well thought out concerns about certain things and he just doesn't know a way to communicate those. Honestly, I'd have a pretty hard time if the person who loved and respected me enough to marry me and have kids with me, perceived that I was a nasty power tripping person.

For what it is worth, I think it is 100% reasonable to say that orange consumption is limited to a can a day. Pear juice is sugar and not all kids can moderate well with sugar and some will end up with yeast or cravings to eat it to the exclusion of all other foods. I'm not sure it does kids a lot of good to teach binge eating and I think it is perfectly possible to teach balance without having it lead to feelings of deprivation.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
I highly doubt he is on a power trip. He is probably legitimately concerned about her eating habits. *I* don't think it is healthy to eat the same food 3times/day until it is gone. It sets up a "binge" mentality (eat it until it's gone).

Not to mention that canned oranges are high in sugar. Even natural sugar like pear juice is still sugar. Plus, if she is eating canned organes all the time, she is probably missing out on eating other FRESH fruits..

See this is the kind of thinking that I'm countering. It's not that there isn't some justification for dh's thoughts and actions, I agree. But when you scrutinize your child this intensely, the entire day becomes replaced with interactions characterized by 'no' 'not allowed' 'you can't' 'I said no' 'why not?' 'how come?' tears, resentment, anger, conflict.

I think for most people on this forum this is preaching to the choir. But every time I choose to set myself up in opposition to my child, I'm replacing a precious interaction with her - one in which I could be emotionally bonding, instilling confidence, allowing her to exercise judgment and self control - with a fight over who is in charge of the oranges (toys, bathwater, milk, carseat, and-on-and-on-and-on...). I don't want to raise a child whose world view is dominated by who is in charge, yk?

And it's not as though that level of control is needed. For instance, dd still has over half of her halloween candy left over. Of her own accord, she monitors how much candy she eats because she knows that it isn't healthy. We don't have to put it away or take it away from her. I just smile at her and say "you need some good food in your belly instead of all that candy. Why don't we have a snack and then you can have some more of your candy later?" And she agrees. If she didn't and I thought it was important, we'd talk about it and figure out a solution.

But a 3 yo who wants to eat a lot of oranges? Sometimes I eat a whole lot of some food I've got a hankering for. I think we all do that. She's a person too. Why should her feelings count less than mine?

If dh swept her up in his arms, snuggled her and said "I worry about you eating SO many oranges! It seems like too many. Why don't we think about some apple slices or shredded cheese for your snack tonight, and you can have some more oranges in the morning?" that would be no problem. But that's not what it's about. It's never about the oranges. It's about him being in charge of her and her being compliant and subservient to him, regardless of what he is asking.

And that's what I don't like.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think for most people on this forum this is preaching to the choir. But every time I choose to set myself up in opposition to my child, I'm replacing a precious interaction with her - one in which I could be emotionally bonding, instilling confidence, allowing her to exercise judgment and self control - with a fight over who is in charge of the oranges (toys, bathwater, milk, carseat, and-on-and-on-and-on...). I don't want to raise a child whose world view is dominated by who is in charge, yk?

I don't see the choices as eat three cans of oranges a day or have constant fights. Those aren't the inherent only choices in the situation. Defining those as the choices is a choice you are making. What choices is dh left with? He can say nothing and feel he has no opportunity to have his thoughts and feelings valued in the family or he can be perceived as a power tripper. It might help to spell out exactly what he is allowed to do and be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I just smile at her and say "you need some good food in your belly instead of all that candy. Why don't we have a snack and then you can have some more of your candy later?" And she agrees. If she didn't and I thought it was important, we'd talk about it and figure out a solution.

But a 3 yo who wants to eat a lot of oranges? Sometimes I eat a whole lot of some food I've got a hankering for. I think we all do that. She's a person too. Why should her feelings count less than mine?

So, let's see YOUR feelings and ideas count a lot when it comes to candy and there you are allowed to make suggestions. But, with the oranges YOUR feeling is one you've decided is universal, and the same one your daughter has, so there you are valuing her feelings? I'm not seeing it. Instead it sounds like you think it is reasonable for parents to have some kind of leadership as you do with the candy as long as they do so in a way that is respectful and kind. Why is it that you get to have an idea about how much candy to eat, but your dh doesn't get to have an idea about how many cans of oranges a kid eats in a day?

[/QUOTE]If dh swept her up in his arms, snuggled her and said "I worry about you eating SO many oranges! It seems like too many. Why don't we think about some apple slices or shredded cheese for your snack tonight, and you can have some more oranges in the morning?" that would be no problem. [/QUOTE]

Curious if this is what you want your daughter to hear why you didn't say that instead of... I say "Oh it's okay, honey. She just wants a snack before bedtime. That's as good as anything, and it's what she wants to eat. What's the harm?" How would the rest of the encounter played out differently if you'd stepped in and said what you wish dh had said?

If your goal is really to avoid this conflict in your home, why not look for the middle ground and find a way to allow dh to have his own opinions and feelings and to express them in a way that you find to be okay? I think it would be good to sort out if your end goal is to be right and superior to dh or if it is to have a family that can respect the feelings of ALL members (inculding dh) and live together harmoniously.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Oranges aside, I'd be upset to be contradicted in front of my DH. So would he. We try not to hash things out in front of the DC. Too confusing for them.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
However, I found that when I really gave dh more credit and tried to take his suggestions more often, he felt more empowered and was more open to taking mine. Plus he didn't feel he had to 'control' dd as much anymore. He is still much more authoratative than I am, but we are coming to terms with our differences, and working on ways to parent dd together, despite them. HTH

I wish we were more like this. It seems to be an opposite effect however. When I back up dh and allow more of his influence, it's almost like he responds with 'aha! NOW I'm in charge!' All of a sudden she can't sing outloud, or crack her window in the car, or play with a cup in the bathtub, or wear her choice of shirt, or eat all of her peas before trying her chicken, or, or, or.... It's quite literally oppressive. Dd never wants to be alone with him, I think because she feels like she barely has room to breathe when he's around.

He does try, and I do try. And our level of success in dealing with this issue, like most others, varies in accordance to the general stress level in our lives. I think that overall it's a nice balance between my permissiveness and his authoratarianism, but the problem for me is the degree of extreme that he can go to at times.

He has a faily high level of insight about it. He has very often expressed an admiration and respect for my parenting. He'll watch me with dd and say "I don't know how you do that. I'm trying to learn." I don't think he wants to dominate her, and he clearly seems to recognize that it is a less effective parenting style, but it's almost a behavior pattern that he finds himself pulled into. His childhood was mentioned, and his parents were very controlling people. It totally destroyed their relationship with their oldest daughter, who isn't on speaking terms with them to this day.

I'm sure I don't 'handle' this as well as I could. Some days are better than others.

He's pretty good about reading and being open to what he's reading. Does anyone have any parenting books they'd recommend in this case? We've read 'How to talk so your kids will listen, listen so your kids will talk' and 'Playful parenting'.


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## paphia (Jun 22, 2007)

Maybe you can ask your dh to modify his "rules" with reasons.

For instance, "DD, I think it's better to have a less sugary snack before bed. What kind of cheese would you like a slice of?"

If he knew that by giving a sound reason for why he was putting his foot down, you were more likely to back him up and encourage your dd to comply, he might be more willing to try a new approach.

Also, you might want to have a discussion with him about when it is really important for you that you and dh get your dd to comply with parenting rules. This way, he will have a better idea that you DO have boundaries and limits, like her going in the street, walking away from you at the store, hurting the cat, etc. Then he might try to be more understanding of what you consider the "small stuff".

I totally get you on the food issue. My mom was really into controlling what we ate. To this day I am a sugar junkie, and my brother and sister still hate fruits and vegetables. I have binge tendencies from being denied the things I wanted (mandarin oranges being one of them!), and my siblings have big aversions based on foods that were forced on them (i.e. they sat at the empty dinner table for 45 minutes after dinner, staring at the three green beans my mother insisted they eat, then they would put them in their mouths, chew, clear the table and go spit it out in the toilet).

You are coming from the perspective that kids do know how to balance themselves if you lead by example and encourage them to recognize their own signals. I totally agree with this. Maybe you cold ask your dh to discuss his "rules" before dumping them on you and your dd. If he thinks she's watching too much tv, rather than just walking in and shutting it off, if he talked about it before hand with you, you could come up with a plan to have play dough out at the normal tv time so that it doesn't get turned on in the first place. Or you could buy less oranges so dd thinks about making them last longer by not eating them as much.

Really, if your dh feels you two need to be a united front in the face of your three year old, he needs to plan things out a little better in the war room, without the "enemy" right there watching you two solidify your strategy. Sheesh! What a way to treat your beloved child! Sorry, that part wasn't very helpful, but I can't muster much respect for that style of parenting.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paphia* 
I totally get you on the food issue. My mom was really into controlling what we ate. To this day I am a sugar junkie, and my brother and sister still hate fruits and vegetables. I have binge tendencies from being denied the things I wanted (mandarin oranges being one of them!), and my siblings have big aversions based on foods that were forced on them (i.e. they sat at the empty dinner table for 45 minutes after dinner, staring at the three green beans my mother insisted they eat, then they would put them in their mouths, chew, clear the table and go spit it out in the toilet)..

This is off topic a bit, but I absolutely agree with you.

Several pp's have mentioned that letting dd eat her oranges would encourage an eating disorder or binge eating. In fact, as you detail, the exact opposite is true. It's a family pattern of restrictive eating policies and denial that lead people into that kind of abnormal eating.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Do you tend to make most of the rules in the household? About bedtime, how to parent, how to discipline, sleeping arrangement, how to feed, what to feed, what clothes to buy her, vaxing/not vaxing, what doctor to use, etc? He might be grasping at straws to have some input and this is how it's coming out.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think there are some things it is fine to control re: our children. Those things centre around health and safety, damage, and sanity of the child, parents, and others (like not screaming in a restaurant).

I don't think the oranges fall into those categories, so yes I think your DH is out of line. Controlling how many oranges your child eats is pretty illogical. I wish mine would eat that many oranges instead of begging for sweets all the time!

I think it would be good for you both to sit down together and figure out what your ground rules/limits are and why. What issues are okay to control? What issues are not? For me, I've listed my areas where I feel okay about controlling the kiddo. If something doesn't fit those areas, I do not attempt to regulate her or stop her from doing what she wants.

Because otherwise, if you are controlling something and you have no idea why/it doesn't fit in with your values, it is illogical and a pointless power struggle that IMO the child will perceive as unfair.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
Do you tend to make most of the rules in the household? About bedtime, how to parent, how to discipline, sleeping arrangement, how to feed, what to feed, what clothes to buy her, vaxing/not vaxing, what doctor to use, etc? He might be grasping at straws to have some input and this is how it's coming out.

Not so much.

Dd always goes to bed by 9:00, which is fine by us both.

How to parent? Yeah, I definitely am the dominant influence there.

How to discipline? We agree on that completely.

Sleeping arrangment? We cosleep, and he'd like to move away from that. But on the other hand he is against taking her out of our bed against her will, which is what it would be at this point, so we are essentially in agreement.

How to feed/what to feed? Dd does most of the cooking and shopping, so he's far and away the bigger influence there.

Clothes? Most of her clothes come from my MIL. No disagreement there.

Vaxing/doctor? We agree on all that.

So I think we are for the most part quite synchronous in our parenting goals and ideals. I was bragging on another thread that dh bought a subscription to 'Mothering' because he wanted to leave it out for our babysitter to read. He wanted to make sure she understood our parenting philosophies







.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Because otherwise, if you are controlling something and you have no idea why/it doesn't fit in with your values, it is illogical and a pointless power struggle that IMO the child will perceive as unfair.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

















You can tell him I said that.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Does anyone have any parenting books they'd recommend in this case?

*Connection Parenting*.

*Unconditional Parenting* DVD.

Pat


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## tsume (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Oranges aside, I'd be upset to be contradicted in front of my DH. So would he. We try not to hash things out in front of the DC. Too confusing for them.









:

I would be incredibly hurt if dh contradicted me in front of anyone.

From just this one story it doesn't sound like your partner is controlling. But you said there were other things that made you feel that way.

And like Pat said, "I believe that we try to control others when we feel out of control." If you keep cutting dh down in front of DD and controlling HIM then that might be why he's power tripping.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Short of that, I don't know if it's better for dd for me to just always align myself with dh to keep the peace, or to reinforce her world view that rules should make sense and that individuals should be able to make decisions about their own lives and actions, within reason of course.

I guess I lean towards the latter approach, especially as your DD gets older. It just feels wrong to me for one parent not to speak up when they see the other parent being unreasonable or unfair. And, yes, of course "unreasonable" or "unfair" are subjective judgements, and I'm all for understanding the other person's point of view and all that, but I'm comfortable with the idea that sometimes one person is just plain wrong - and that often the same person is wrong in the same ways over and over again.

My father had a different approach to parenting than my mother, and I wouldn't hesitate to describe his approach as wrong; neither would any of my three siblings. (Despite the fact that his intentions were good.) I don't recall my mother disagreeing with him in front of us much, if at all - but that didn't help us have a better relationship with him. Mean or unreasonable behavior from one parent is going to be perceived by kids as mean or unreasonable whether or not the other parent openly disagrees with it. What kind of message does it send if the other parent isn't willing to openly disagree?

I would be annoyed (or worse) if my DP outright contradicted something I said to my kids - if I said, "No video this evening," and he said, "Yes, they CAN watch a video!" But I wouldn't mind if he politely questioned my decision in front of the kids. ("Why not? I don't see the harm in it. They haven't watched any videos the last few days, and even if they watched a video every night, would that be so bad?") I guess I'd have to hear exactly how it sounded, but my impression is that the OP's questioning of her husband's "no oranges" decision was more like my second scenario.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think dh and I are similarly motivated.

It seems to me that his 'imperialism' is neverending and sort of feeds on itself. The more rope I give him, the more he hangs himself (and dd). It feels as though if I weren't here to counter him, he would govern every moment, every word, every action that she makes. I'm sure the reality isn't that extreme, but it feels that way to me, and I think to dd as well. He is an extremely controlling person by nature.

Has it occurred to you that you are attempting to be as controlling of his behavior with dd as he is about dd's? I might be wrong, but you seem to be saying that if he only interacted with her in a different way, or was less restricting, you'd be OK. While I agree that he sounds like he's too controlling, I think you too have to cede some control to him to develop his own relationship with his daughter.

It sounds to me like you are both motivated by fear: He's afraid of losing control and ending up with a child who neither respects nor listens to him. You're afraid he's going to end up out of control and end up with a child who neither respects nor listens to him.

Have you tried asking him: "What do you want me to do when I disagree with what you're doing with dd/how you're treating her?"

Have you tried just not intervening for a month? It sounds like you've gotten sort of a bad dynamic set up - he's worried about exerting authority, you're worried that he's being too harsh, so every time he exerts his authority (especially over something stupid), you step in and "undermine it" (though I'm sure that's not your intention, I suspect it feels strongly like that to him), which makes him want to exert his authority even more.

If he will read parenting books, then you might start with something like Playful Parenting, since that describes an approach that you seem to be more comfortable with.

I would also strongly consider some counseling around this issue. Not because I think that your relationship is fundamentally flawed, but because it seems to be pretty good in other areas, and you seem to have a major communication impasse in this area. Sometimes a neutral third party can help you both understand and adapt to another point of view.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Has it occurred to you that you are attempting to be as controlling of his behavior with dd as he is about dd's?

Yes, if you consider being resistent to being controlled to acting in a controlling way yourself, then this is true. I'd like to control his attempts to control me and dd sometimes. Other than that, I'm actually extremely laissez faire.

Quote:

It sounds to me like you are both motivated by fear: He's afraid of losing control and ending up with a child who neither respects nor listens to him. You're afraid he's going to end up out of control and end up with a child who neither respects nor listens to him.
I mentioned before that I think this is his motivation. I'm not so much concerned about whether dd respects or listens to him, to be honest, simply because I believe that she does and will. It's more that I object on principle that a child's (or anyone's) basic rights are at the whim of another person simply because that person is physically stronger. I understand parental guidance, and am a proponent of discipline. But this extends far beyond that into the realm of personal beliefs and minor preferences.

Quote:

Have you tried asking him: "What do you want me to do when I disagree with what you're doing with dd/how you're treating her?"
Yes. I mentioned before that he pretty much expects me to back him regardless of my own thoughts or feelings.

Quote:

Have you tried just not intervening for a month? It sounds like you've gotten sort of a bad dynamic set up - he's worried about exerting authority, you're worried that he's being too harsh, so every time he exerts his authority (especially over something stupid), you step in and "undermine it" (though I'm sure that's not your intention, I suspect it feels strongly like that to him), which makes him want to exert his authority even more.
I think that is exactly how he feels. Because of my work schedule and the fact that he works from home and has flexible work demands, dh actually has typically spent more hours alone with dd than I have. He's had ample opportunity to do things his way without my input or hinderances. When we're together, I do back him on things which are reasonable: don't climb on the countertop, stop shouting in the house please, etc. But again, his need to control seems limitless at times. The more you yield to it, the more it flourishes, until it turns into this weird dynamic in which dd degenerates into acting out because she feels like she can't do anything right, so why bother trying at all?

Quote:

If he will read parenting books, then you might start with something like Playful Parenting, since that describes an approach that you seem to be more comfortable with.
I mentioned above that we'd read this. For me, although I enjoyed it, to be honest it seemed like a fluff read, without anything especially insightful or beyond the scope of what we were already naturally doing. And I don't think we have any sort of discipline problem at all. Dd is one of the best behaved kids I've ever encountered.

Quote:

I would also strongly consider some counseling around this issue. Not because I think that your relationship is fundamentally flawed, but because it seems to be pretty good in other areas, and you seem to have a major communication impasse in this area. Sometimes a neutral third party can help you both understand and adapt to another point of view.
Really? Do people really go into counseling over things like this? I'm sure it could be helpful. But do insurance providers pay for that? I wonder what would be the billing code they would use?

Gosh, there are so many other issues in my life that are so much more pressing than this. I think I'd be in counseling until then end of time if my threshold was that low for seeking help. This is just everyday stuff about living with and loving people, isn't it? I thought unloading on an internet forum seemed like a pretty appropriate coping strategy.


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## mamabear&babybear (Dec 20, 2004)

My dh and I have also talked about not undermining each other in front of our dc. I, however, have no problem asking dh why he is making certain rules in front of them. If he has a good reason than I will redirect the girls. There have been times where he hasn't had a good reason and this gives him the chance to change his mind. He does the same thing to me. There are also times where I ask dd1 to go play for a minute because I need to talk to dh. HTH


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I was raised pretty consensually, and this arbitrary patriarchal oppression stuff just makes my stomach turn over.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
He is an extremely controlling person by nature.

It's interesting that he and I wound up together. We're virtually polar opposites in many ways.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Gosh, there are so many other issues in my life that are so much more pressing than this. I think I'd be in counseling until then end of time if my threshold was that low for seeking help. This is just everyday stuff about living with and loving people, isn't it? I thought unloading on an internet forum seemed like a pretty appropriate coping strategy.

I pulled out a couple of your quotes to point out why Lynn might be thinking that counseling would be appropriate. You say that it's just everyday stuff, but you also say that he makes your stomach turn over. Maybe you're using that in a different way than I would, but that's pretty strong language to me. I wouldn't want my dh saying that about MY parenting.

Also, you say that he spends a lot of time alone with her. Does her behavior deteriorate after this time, as a result of his attempts to control her? Or have they figured out some kind of compromise within their own relationship?

I, too, am quick to judge my dh's parenting. It's very hard for me to bite my tongue, and has caused a rift in our marriage before, which we are currently working on patching up.

Because of this experience, I am in complete disagreement with the pps who think it is okay to point out where they disagree with their dh. Well, maybe it is okay for them, but if your dh is bothered by it, then it is, IMNSHO, a very, very bad idea. It just sets up a really bad dynamic. I think kids will feel responsible for the disagreement, they will wonder why their mommy is so disapproving of their daddy, which may lead them to believe he must be incapable of caring properly for them, which is frightening. And the general discord just puts kids on edge. And, my dh can hardly help but be resentful of the kids.

In my marriage, I've noticed that the times I'm most likely to attack my dh's parenting is when he's doing the things that I resent about myself, or when I'm feeling insecure. So, if I've been short with the kids all day, and he comes home and is short with them too, I tend to get angry at him and lecture him about treating the kids more gently. I'm really angry at myself, but it's easier to deflect that onto him.

Or, another issue I have is that I sometimes feel "lost" as a SAHM, so I use my parenting "expertise" as a chance to elevate myself. My self-esteem gets a little beat up sometimes, and so I (unfortunately) want to have an edge over him to restore it. Not healthy, but a pattern I've noticed nonetheless. I noticed you said that you work, so you probably don't have that dynamic, but it sounds like you have a lot invested emotionally in being a good parent, and it might be worth it to examine why that might feel threatened sometimes.

Anyway, just some ideas. I think this can turn into a big issue, I've seen it happen in my marriage and in others.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I guess I lean towards the latter approach, especially as your DD gets older. It just feels wrong to me for one parent not to speak up when they see the other parent being unreasonable or unfair. And, yes, of course "unreasonable" or "unfair" are subjective judgements, and I'm all for understanding the other person's point of view and all that, but I'm comfortable with the idea that sometimes one person is just plain wrong - and that often the same person is wrong in the same ways over and over again.

Yep. I think it was Alfie Kohn who said that presenting a united front seems like two giants united against them to a child, and that parenting disagreements can show children how to resolve conflicts in healthy ways.

I really, really don't understand the presenting a united front thing.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yep. I think it was Alfie Kohn who said that presenting a united front seems like two giants united against them to a child, and that parenting disagreements can show children how to resolve conflicts in healthy ways.

I really, really don't understand the presenting a united front thing.

ITA.


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## katiecat (May 4, 2004)

I also don't agree with the united front. I've never really understood and agree it makes the child feel even more powerless. I think it's all in how the parent who is questioning the other parent does it. It should be done in a respectful manner.

Blessed, we have sort of similar issues right down to dh being with ds much more than me (during waking hours) and yes I do see the effect of some of the things dh does to/with ds on him. Both positive and negative! DH isn't into the arbitrary rules but is into exerting his authority over ds and then shaming/punishing him when ds gets upset. I am all too aware of how this was done to me as a child and when I see dh doing it to ds when I am there I immediately feel my stress level shoot up because of the buttons it triggers for me. From my point of view I see dh demanding that ds (and I) doesn't interrupt him and yet dh interrupts ds (and me) very, very often and this is obviously a trigger for ds. It's messy. And I do see the way I am currently (not) handling it is doing damage to dh and my relationship. Sigh...it's the current issue for me.

Also, yes I realize I am not a perfect parent either. I think what bothers me the most is I am very aware (or think I am!) of when I've messed up and it is pretty much always when I am stressed about other stuff or generally not feeling well. I always apologize to ds or at the least I feel bad about it after. With dh, though, it's like he thinks he is always right and that anything he does/says to ds is the best way to handle the situation. THAT gets me, too.

One thing I have going for me, though, is that dh does listen to me (but he also listens to everyone else and this is where he gets some of his ideas from) and will read things that I point out to him. I definitely have to work on this area currently. I have said a few things that I am very ashamed of to dh.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yep. I think it was Alfie Kohn who said that presenting a united front seems like two giants united against them to a child, and that parenting disagreements can show children how to resolve conflicts in healthy ways.

I really, really don't understand the presenting a united front thing.

I agree with the 2 giants thing. However, like I said before, I think contradicting another parent in front of the child can be seriously confusing for a child and unfair to him/her. I also think it's unfair to the parent. So, I (in most cases) stay out of it. If there is something "big' going on (like I can tell DH is at the end of the rope) I intervene (as does he), but I TRY to do so in a way where the child is not put in the middle of things. For example, poor DH was up late with our toddler . . .it was like 2 a.m. He was getting very frustrated. So, I walked in with the baby and said, "Do you want to trade?" That's what we did and it worked out. No one was being criticized and/or questioned.

If there is a less urgent issue but still important (and ongoing), I talk to DH about it when the children aren't around. Even then, I try to pick my battles very carefully. He has his own relationship with the DC and I respect that.

It has taken a long time for us to get to this point and we still mess up. We are works in progress.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yep. I think it was Alfie Kohn who said that presenting a united front seems like two giants united against them to a child, and that parenting disagreements can show children how to resolve conflicts in healthy ways.

I really, really don't understand the presenting a united front thing.

Well what if one parent intervenes, and then the other parent gets mad at them? Say dc is jumping on the couch. Parent A says, "Dc, stop jumping on the couch." Parent B says, "What's the big deal? She's not hurting anything." Parent A gets noticeably irritated with Parent B and says, "Fine, whatever!"

I don't think the child is going to feel that one giant has his or her back, and the other giant is against him. I think the child is going to feel anxious, and slightly responsible for a conflict between his/her parents. Maybe if Parent A were to calmly say, "Well, his shoes are dirty and I'm afraid that cushion is going to tear," and then Parent B said, "Oh, I see. Yes, dear, Parent A is right. Hop off the couch," the child would feel better, but maybe not. Maybe instead the child would feel betrayed, maybe the child would have gotten up his/her hopes that jumping on the couch was all right, only to have them squashed in the end. I don't know. I guess I think it's kind of silly to refer to parents as giants, but I'm kind of thinking of a big ogre-ish, scary giant.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Goddess, this was a great thread to read. I wonder about my DP's "power tripping" quite a bit as well.... and what some great perspectives are being put out there for me to mull over!!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Blessed, is there any chance that your dh might have mild Asperger's? I'm no expert, but your description reminded me of other people that I've known who had similar control issues.


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## katiecat (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Blessed, is there any chance that your dh might have mild Asperger's? I'm no expert, but your description reminded me of other people that I've known who had similar control issues.

That is a good point. Also if someone is really controlling it can be masking anxiety.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
...I think the child is going to feel anxious, and slightly responsible for a conflict between his/her parents...

Yes, this.

Dd gets very upset whenever dh is mad at me. She stands in front of me and screams "Don't yell at mama!" at him. It's not like dh even is yelling - he's not really like that. She's just so sensitive to any negativity that even curt words and irritation make her upset.

I think she's much more at peace when she sees us acting as a team, even when it's not necessarily going her way. But it's not always that simple. Most times when I disagree with dh, I do it in what seems to be a good natured and inoffensive way. But depending on his mood, he might react in a pretty overblown way, and it's not easy to predict when that will happen.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well I think it is important for children to witness healthy conflict, communication, and resolution.

Kohn explains it better than I. It is in Unconditional Parenting if anyone is interested.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, this.

Dd gets very upset whenever dh is mad at me. She stands in front of me and screams "Don't yell at mama!" at him. It's not like dh even is yelling - he's not really like that. She's just so sensitive to any negativity that even curt words and irritation make her upset.

Does she think he is going to hurt you? That you can't handle it yourself?

Assuming it's a communication pattern that is okay with you, can you just maybe explain what is going on and that you've got it covered? Would that do? Like, "It's okay babe, Daddy disagrees with me right now, sometimes people don't agree and that's alright. We'll talk and figure it out, you don't have to protect me." Something like that?

Quote:

I think she's much more at peace when she sees us acting as a team, even when it's not necessarily going her way. But it's not always that simple. Most times when I disagree with dh, I do it in what seems to be a good natured and inoffensive way. But depending on his mood, he might react in a pretty overblown way, and it's not easy to predict when that will happen.
Oh sorry, I wrote the above before I saw this. I don't know. If it's bullying, like if you are intimidated and he is being really overtly angry, I can see why that would be upsetting. But they can also misread simple adult interactions that are, for us, balanced and how we do things. I know with mine she sides with myself or my housemate over different things, which can actually be pretty funny, but when it's not I tell her it's a grown up discussion and people don't always agree.

Some explanation that helps her calm down about it, because I think it's good for kids to learn to be comfortable with conflict as well as more peaceful, united interactions.


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## Momma_Camille (Jan 11, 2007)

My DH does this sometimes - although I don't think to the extent yours does. And since being corrected or contradicted (especially by me







I'm a fairly... um... strong personality in our house) sets him on edge faster than anything else I finally did this...

(trying to apply gentle discipline to my poor husband.







: )

Anyway.

I just brought up in normal conversation how I think one of the most frustrating things to me about watching other parents is how they just say "NO! _____" without really having a reason. And I went on & on about why it bugs me, how confusing it must be for the child, etc. And how I've been trying sooo hard to THINK when I'm saying "no" about something & then to explain to DD why I've said no.

He thought the whole idea was very interesting & I KNOW it's because I just did it at a receptive chatty moment.

So now if he says "No" about something to DD, I can say "why, honey?" (which is what dd is thinking anyway) and he either voices why or says "you're right. nevermind. Here ya go Leah", etc.

It's worked like a charm!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I second the suggestion of counseling. Blessed, without sounding like a total jerk here, I have often seen posts of yours where you sound pretty critical of your DH's parenting, and there's a subtext of quite a bit of anger, too. I know posts on MDC do not convey the reality of our lives, but I think there's a broader issue here than disagreement about discipline. I don't think this is just an everyday nonissue....as someone else said, if my DH was saying my parenting made his stomach turn over, I'd be concerned.

I really think disagreements over parenting style can be destructive and are something to watch closely. There have been times when DH and I have been at odds about discipline too, and it's quite corrosive to our marriage and to the dynamic with our daughter. Conversely, when we ARE on the same page, even difficult situations with DD leave us feeling more bonded, not less.


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## katiecat (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momma_Camille* 
I just brought up in normal conversation how I think one of the most frustrating things to me about watching other parents is how they just say "NO! _____" without really having a reason. And I went on & on about why it bugs me, how confusing it must be for the child, etc. And how I've been trying sooo hard to THINK when I'm saying "no" about something & then to explain to DD why I've said no.

He thought the whole idea was very interesting & I KNOW it's because I just did it at a receptive chatty moment.

So now if he says "No" about something to DD, I can say "why, honey?" (which is what dd is thinking anyway) and he either voices why or says "you're right. nevermind. Here ya go Leah", etc.

It's worked like a charm!

That kind of thing works very well for my dh, too! I just have to get my strong emotions out of the way enough and find a time to actually do it!


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## Mpenny1001 (May 21, 2005)

Blessed, you say your DH is with DD alone quite a bit of the time. Does he act the same with her when they are alone or does the controlling bit just come out when you are around? I ask because my mom was a great mom when it was just her and my brother and I. When my dad was around she was a much different parent because she had issues with my dad and it totally changed her behavior. I wonder if there aren't issues between you and DH that may cause his behavior (including his parenting) to alter somewhat when you are there.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mpenny1001* 
Blessed, you say your DH is with DD alone quite a bit of the time. Does he act the same with her when they are alone or does the controlling bit just come out when you are around?

He's the same, but dd's response is altered by my presence, because she feels she has a neutral person whom she can make an appeal to. So she'll argue her case - quite sensibly - to me ("Oranges aren't bad for me. They're fruit. Why can't I have some more?") whereas if she's alone with dh she's learned that there's not much point.

She tends to have tantrums when she's with dh, whereas only very rarely with me.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I second the suggestion of counseling. Blessed, without sounding like a total jerk here, I have often seen posts of yours where you sound pretty critical of your DH's parenting, and there's a subtext of quite a bit of anger, too. I know posts on MDC do not convey the reality of our lives, but I think there's a broader issue here than disagreement about discipline. I don't think this is just an everyday nonissue....as someone else said, if my DH was saying my parenting made his stomach turn over, I'd be concerned..

I think we're talking about two different people here.

I'm just very adverse to controlling children. For instance, perhaps your partner might have to hit your child before you would talk to others about his parenting causing your 'stomach to turn over'. But my threshold is different. When I read your thread about always controlling your dd so that she didn't hurt herself, and the one about her routinely telling you 'you're not my friend!', I had those same feelings. I just have different ideas about parenting.

So anyway, we had a more successful (and more typical) encounter last night.

We were dining out and dd had hot chocolate. She was done with it and started to get out a sugar packet to pour into the cup. Dh said "No, dd! We don't do that." Dd looked upset, turned to me and demanded "Why, mama?" I said "Well, because it's kind of messy." She looked puzzled and said "Messy? No it's not, because I'm putting it in here (pointing into cup)".








She's just so sensible.

I said "You know what? You're absolutely right. You do know how to put sugar in the cup carefully so that it's not messy. And it's okay to play like that at home. But in the restaurant we just have to be a little bit more serious. It's just their rules. Plus we should use the sugar to eat instead of to play with, so it's not wasted." She said "Oh, okay!" and happily launched into another conversation.

Dh smiled at me and quietly said "You're such a good mama."









So most of the time our contrasts in parenting styles go down like this. We're really pretty lucky, because Dh is openly approving of my parenting and has good insight about things that he would like to do differently. It's not as though we're at far ends of a spectrum and he wants to spank and shame while I'm AP/gentle dicipline. We're pretty much on the same page except for subtle variances.

Once in a while he's short tempered and overly strict, and I'm short tempered and overly reactive. We're people. That's life. When that happens I come here or I talk to friends, unload and get myself centered. After ten years of marriage, we're actually pretty good at conflict resolution.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I'm just very adverse to controlling children. For instance, perhaps your partner might have to hit your child before you would talk to others about his parenting causing your 'stomach to turn over'. But my threshold is different. When I read your thread about always controlling your dd so that she didn't hurt herself, and the one about her routinely telling you 'you're not my friend!', I had those same feelings. I just have different ideas about parenting.
.
*sigh*

Blessed, I want you to know that my comment was not made in snarkiness. I think you interpreted it that way, though. You sound pretty defensive.

I'm not sure what would have made your stomach turn over about my DD saying that to me, by the way. Is that taken as evidence of my bad parenting, her imitating things said to her at school?

And if keeping my DD from launching her chair through a plate glass window is overly controlling, mea culpa.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Sorry, it doesn't take much for me to come off sounding irritated these days, so I apologize if my edges are rough right now. But too, it seems to me that maybe you're overreading here - both with regards to what I'm saying to and about my dh, and to what I'm saying to and about yourself.

I was referencing your comment about it being 'disturbing' for my stomach to turn over from some of dh's parenting techniques. My point was, if I was co-parenting with you, I'd have all of those same reactions and worse based on how you've described your own parenting techniques and philosophies. But I don't think that either one of you is a 'bad parent'. I just have strong feelings about kids growing up in noncoercive environments.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

My dad was like that. It was confusing and upsetting to me.

Perhaps you need to look into family counseling to figure out why he feels the need for random shows of power.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I was referencing your comment about it being 'disturbing' for my stomach to turn over from some of dh's parenting techniques. My point was, if I was co-parenting with you, I'd have all of those same reactions and worse based on how you've described your own parenting techniques and philosophies. But I don't think that either one of you is a 'bad parent'. I just have strong feelings about kids growing up in noncoercive environments.

I think the point is if you are trying to coparent with someone who is doing stuff that makes your stomach turn, that isn't a particularly pleasant way to live for you or for your daughter who ends up in the middle of the conflict. To me that sounds like an concern worth getting some help with. Getting help isn't about labeling someone as "bad", it is about getting to place where you can live together and not feel like you are walking on eggshells or having stress in your family.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Yup, what Roar said.

FTR, I'm trying not to be too defensive, but I don't think it's particularly...gentle?...to call me out as using discipline that "makes your stomach turn...and worse," either. There was no need to personalize it that way. If you were my best friend in the world and you laid out the scenario you laid out here, I'd have made the very same counseling suggestion. But then, I'm a big believer in counseling.

Quote:

I was referencing your comment about it being 'disturbing' for my stomach to turn over from some of dh's parenting techniques.
Oh, also, I didn't say anything about "disturbing." I said, "...if my DH was saying my parenting made his stomach turn over, I'd be concerned."


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## windpowered (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't have time for a long response, but I have read all the posts. I think your DH may have an anxiety issue.

My DH gets very anxious about stuff, and some days are worse than others. When he is having an anxious day, he wants to control every.little.thing. He worries about stuff like the sugar spilling. (from your example) He starts wiping DD's mouth after her first bite of food.

The puzzling thing for me (until I identified this as an anxiety issue), is that he is not consistent. Other days she can do her own thing, and he is OK with it.

He really wants to do the "unified front" thing, too. I am OK with it, for the most part, but if I feel he is really just taking out his frustrations by limiting DD's choices, I say something. Diplomatic. Most of the time.









It sounds like you and your DH are a good parenting team. Kudos to you for that!

~Diane


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I feel like I have whiplash. I guess I tend to take people at their word when I read their posts. This is what I got from your first post...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

He gets angry, dd gets upset - not about the oranges but because daddy is mad at mommy.

Knowing dd, I won't be surprised if dd never eats the oranges again. She's very sensitive that way. Now what used to be this fun treat for her is going to be this painful reminder of daddy yelling at mama, with her in the middle feeling like it's all her fault.

Okay, long story. But this is a recurring theme for us in a million different ways. Dh is constantly making up these ridiculous 'rules' about things and laying them out there like some kind of line in some invisible sand that dd has to stay behind. It's literally revolting to me. I was raised pretty consensually, and this arbitrary patriarchal oppression stuff just makes my stomach turn over.

And now...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Dh smiled at me and quietly said "You're such a good mama."









So most of the time our contrasts in parenting styles go down like this. We're really pretty lucky, because Dh is openly approving of my parenting and has good insight about things that he would like to do differently. It's not as though we're at far ends of a spectrum and he wants to spank and shame while I'm AP/gentle dicipline. We're pretty much on the same page except for subtle variances...

Once in a while he's short tempered and overly strict, and I'm short tempered and overly reactive.


First it is that he's "constantly" making up rules, it turns your stomach, this is a problem in a "million ways", your daughter is so severely affected by it that she has to give up oranges, etc.

Now, it is most of the time it goes just fine and there are subtle differences.

If you don't get why you are getting the advice you are it may make sense to go back and read what you posted. When I hear "constant" conflict and a kid who is upset about parents fighting, that it is "revolting", I think counseling not on the same page with "subtle variations".


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## anthasam (Aug 20, 2005)

My father was like this too. He would make up random, odd "rules". I don't remember it bothering me as much when I was younger, but I would often call him on it when I was older (14+). At that point, it was really just annoying (mostly because they were illogical).

I strive hard not to do this to DD and if I catch myself making up a stupid rule, I quickly stop and try to assess what is bothering me about the situation.

Pat (WuWei) said waaaay up top: "I believe that we try to control others when we feel out of control. " This is EXACTLY it with me. I usually catch myself doing it when I'm stressed, trying to do something that requires my attention, DD is running around like a crazy woman, the dog is barking, etc, etc.

I admit I have not read the whole thread (going back to do that now), but I would like to say that it's easier for me to assess my own actions because I am making a conscience effort *not* to act that way. I'm not sure how I would handle it if DH was the "arbitrary ruler".


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I have found the things which trigger my emotional reactions benefit from more exploration. Since I am such a strong personality, I have found counseling to be a _collaborative_ process.







Given, most medical interventions come from a place of "expert knows best for another"; but I don't find that particularly helpful.







However, counseling wasn't some negative experience, and was actually an enlightening one, for me.

Blessed, you have a lot on your plate with which your husband and your household are negotiating. Conflict resolution with a supportive resource is an asset you can afford. Not all folks can. Don't kick it, till ya' tried it.









I find that conflict is really about *me* and my expectations. When I can release control, everything flows. When I can't, I find that delving more deeply into my 'hot buttons' informs me, so that I can be assessing the situation from a place of being in the present, without my childhood baggage and triggers.

I am the first in line to suggest consensual solutions. Communication about underlying needs, not focusing on behaviors, is the crux of that, imo. Of course, you may well not have time for counseling commitments with your schedule, at this time. I just don't believe that one has to be pushed beyond their limits to benefit from it. Elective emotional support, isn't something many of us can get from our immediate families, especially when they are in the midst of the crisis/conflict with us.









You don't need to be superwoman. Truly, we all need support.

Pat


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

blessed - you need one of these









Have the control issues exhibited by your DH gotten worse lately? I read your thread in Personal Growth, and it seems like there is A LOT of stress in your household lately. If your DH is feeling like his home life is out of control, perhaps he's grasping for control anywhere he can find it.


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## Degas (Sep 13, 2007)

My dh and I are similar.

We *are* actually in counseling. At first, my dh didn't want to go to counseling because he thought that ment that things must be really bad between us, but I don't think it does. I am a big believer in counseling too. Things don't have to be bad before you go to counseling, it's actually better if there not, because then you can get a lot more accomplished.

My insurance covers it. It covers more of it if it is Family Counseling, which we have billed it as since we are mostly talking about parenting.

We have had a lot of revelations through counseling, two of them important to this topic. First I'll tell you how we got there. I am the parent that is most influential on how to parent, discipline, etc. Mostly because I am the one for the first two and a half years of her life who was around her most of the time. DH was in a acting graduate program at the time where he was in school from 8 am to 11 pm six days a week with two hour break for lunch and the same for super. I'm also the one that likes to read books on parenting, etc. He doesn't. He is reading one now, but only because I asked him to a kazillion times and told him that it was really important to me. I would ask him about parenting styles and his values for parenting, discipline, etc., but he wasn't really that into talking about it. He prefers to just do stuff instead of talking, discussing it. If I pressed him because I thought it was important to talk about, he would usually get mad or say he didn't have time. He is very involved in her life, but his style is to just do stuff instead of talking about it. And so sometimes he does stuff I don't agree with, we talk about it after and he gets defensive.

Also, I probably hindered our discussion some because he is *very* defensive. I come from a family and have a personality that is very inquisitive, we ask why for the sake of curiosity - not because we are questioning authority or capability. So during our few discussions - say about discipline, if he tells me he thinks that Lillian needs to respond right away to his request the first time he asks or she gets in trouble. So I might say, well, I think that children take longer then adults to respond because they are still developing their attention skills, and even I can't respond right away all the time. Don't you think that's a little unreasonable for a four year old to respond right away? Why can't we give her more time to respond and explain the natural consequences of not responding? Like if she doesn't get dressed in time to go to a puppet show, then we can't go because they don't let people in late. He usually gets defensive mid way through when I'm talking and tells me that I'm always telling him that he does everything bad, and that he's the bad guy. I try and explain I don't think his way of doing things is bad, I just want us to figure out a way to parent her in a way and have expectations for her that we think are reasonable for a four year old. Sometimes he'll say I think it's reasonable for her to listen right away, and she needs to learn the consequences of not paying attention. So I'll go back into what I was saying before about them still developing attention skills, etc. Then he'll say I say that he's always doing everything wrong and he's heard enough.

So in counseling, we decided to make a list of our values we want to instill in Lillian. Because, I thought, you know, we never are able to talk about this or don't make time to, so we'll do it here. So we made our lists and numbered them in order of importance. Our values and order was almost exactly the same. I was amazed, I thought our parenting styles were so different and we wanted such different things for her. I realized that we want the same things for her, we just have different ideas of how to help her get there.

I realized shortly after this that the main difference in our style is how we choose to lead her. I choose to lead by example, and not correcting her unless for safety reasons. Or if I say we can't do that I tell her why. He chooses to lead by direction. He doesn't think we should have to lead by example because adults can do things that kids can't and he is the adult. Case in point. I think it is important to pick up after ourselves, he doesn't. He does think it's important to teach Lillian to pick up her stuff though. I say how can I expect Lillian to pick up her clothes, etc, when we don't? We haven't found a total resolution for this yet, but the revelation that that is the difference is great.

Another thing we realized during counseling is that I need a reason to do things, to make them important to me. My asking him for a reason of why he wants to do something a certain way is not me questioning his capability as a person or adult, it is me needing to make what is important to him important to me. Likewise, when he doesn't want to know the reason of why I want to do something (which I always feel the need to tell him), it is not because he isn't interested or doesn't value my input, etc, it's because he doesn't feel he needs to know that information. When I do give him my reasons, he feels like I'm trying to tell him how to do it, like I'm questioning his ability. So we discussed how when asking our spouse to do something for us or if we can parent in a certain way, I will just ask him without giving the reason unless he asks (which is hard for me







). He won't get offended when I ask the reason. This is going much better for us, still a work in progress, but better.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I apologize in advance - I don't have time to read this whole thread. I really don't like not being able to do that, but I wanted to throw out a book and website rec. The book is called Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control and is actually written for adoptive parents. I'm not actually recommending it for that reason, as the situation you are talking about here isn't about adoption, but just wanted to let you know that there may be even more in the book that applies to your family. The other website is www.consciouslyparenting.com which is just getting off the ground but full of great info, articles, etc.

A big focus of both sites is dealing with our own issues as parents and how they affect our parenting. When you mentioned that you perceive his controlling to be a fear that he won't have any influence over her (sorry, paraphrasing) I immediately thought of these resources so I hope they can help some.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
He's the same, but dd's response is altered by my presence, because she feels she has a neutral person whom she can make an appeal to. So she'll argue her case - quite sensibly - to me ("Oranges aren't bad for me. They're fruit. Why can't I have some more?") whereas if she's alone with dh she's learned that there's not much point.

She tends to have tantrums when she's with dh, whereas only very rarely with me.

I don't think its wrong to have limits and I always find it odd when people who don't place limits on their child say that the child doesn't throw tantrums. Of course they don't, they are getting everything their way!







:


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippiekaren* 
Also, I probably hindered our discussion some because he is *very* defensive. I come from a family and have a personality that is very inquisitive, we ask why for the sake of curiosity - not because we are questioning authority or capability. So during our few discussions - say about discipline, if he tells me he thinks that Lillian needs to respond right away to his request the first time he asks or she gets in trouble. So I might say, well, I think that children take longer then adults to respond because they are still developing their attention skills, and even I can't respond right away all the time. Don't you think that's a little unreasonable for a four year old to respond right away? Why can't we give her more time to respond and explain the natural consequences of not responding? Like if she doesn't get dressed in time to go to a puppet show, then we can't go because they don't let people in late. He usually gets defensive mid way through when I'm talking and tells me that I'm always telling him that he does everything bad, and that he's the bad guy. I try and explain I don't think his way of doing things is bad, I just want us to figure out a way to parent her in a way and have expectations for her that we think are reasonable for a four year old. Sometimes he'll say I think it's reasonable for her to listen right away, and she needs to learn the consequences of not paying attention. So I'll go back into what I was saying before about them still developing attention skills, etc. Then he'll say I say that he's always doing everything wrong and he's heard enough.


A-HA!!! That's us. I need to reread the rest of your post again. You literally just described us to a T.


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## Degas (Sep 13, 2007)

I put limits on my child and she rarely has a tantrum with me. And when she has it's when she was extremely tired (if she was up too late) or she thought we were being unreasonable and not fair. Also, it's not quite a tantrum, she just gets really upset and cries. Sometimes she gets angry with the way we do things, and we listen to her and ask her how she thinks we should do it. Usually she says I don't know but she doesn't like it, but sometimes she has some great suggestions. Sometimes she has suggestions that aren't possible. We explain the reasons for all of our rules, and I tell her the reason of why we do everything. Whenever she has a question of why we do something or how the world works, etc, we try to explain in a way she can understand.

I say "we" because dh really tries hard to do this, but he gets impatient quickly with her. She does get more upset with him, and they tend to have a lot more conflict because he gets impatient with her. Some days, though, they do wonderfully, and he is very playful with her and they have a great time. He brings her to school and stays home with her when they have a teacher workday because his schedule is more flexible. Some days, though, they have a rough time, and are in conflict all day. Usually if they start getting upset with each other it lasts the whole day. Sometimes I can diffuse some of the negative energy when I get home.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane in Corvallis* 
...The puzzling thing for me (until I identified this as an anxiety issue), is that he is not consistent. Other days she can do her own thing, and he is OK with it...

I agree. I do think it's an anxiety issue for dh. It seems to wax and wane, and dealing with our current added stress has made it worse for him.

I think he believes that he can absolutely control dd, which is an illusion, of course. No one can control another person, really. So when he's feeling this way, he doesn't want to think about influencing her, or persuading her, or convincing her, because when the rubber meets the road, he wants to feel that she is doing what he wants because he is _in control_, and not because she has simply consented or agreed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippiekaren* 
...Another thing we realized during counseling is that I need a reason to do things, to make them important to me. My asking him for a reason of why he wants to do something a certain way is not me questioning his capability as a person or adult, it is me needing to make what is important to him important to me...

Yes. Interestingly, this turns out to be divided among gender lines oft times.

Prison guards who oversee female inmates are taught that women require reasons and rationale for their actions. So unlike with the men, you can't just tell them to get off the grass. You have to explain why the policy of not walking on the grass was implemented, and why it's important that it's adhered to. Otherwise you'll have fights and noncompliance on your hands. For the men, just knowing whether or not it's against the rules is pretty much all they care about.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I feel like I have whiplash...

Maybe you could just move on then. Thanks for your input.


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## Degas (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I agree. I do think it's an anxiety issue for dh. It seems to wax and wane, and dealing with our current added stress has made it worse for him.

I think he believes that he can absolutely control dd, which is an illusion, of course. No one can control another person, really. So when he's feeling this way, he doesn't want to think about influencing her, or persuading her, or convincing her, because when the rubber meets the road, he wants to feel that she is doing what he wants because he is _in control_, and not because she has simply consented or agreed.

My dh is also inconsistent and gets in moods where he wants to her to obey everything he asks instantly. I think it depends on his mood and if he perceives that she is disrespecting him. Now, I don't think that it's OK to disrespect him, but I think what he perceives as disrespect is not her intending that. Like your dd, it's usually it's when she questions why she has to do something or doesn't listen right away. But some days he'll be in a more irritated mood and he'll get angry with her for something simple, and the next day she'll do the same thing and he'll be fine with it.

Also, he'll play with her and be silly a lot of the time (a lot of the time he is the one that initiates the silliness) and then that same day or the next day when he's not in a silly mood anymore, he'll get upset with her when she is being silly at what he thinks is an inappropriate time (but he thought it was alright in the same circumstances an hour before). I think he reaches a somewhat arbitrary threshold where it's not OK anymore, and I think that is confusing for her, and she gets upset. I've talked with him about it, and he agrees.

Now, I'm not saying by any means that I am the queen of consistency, but I do think that I am more aware of my inconsistencies, the consequences of my inconsistencies, and rectifying and apologizing for them. He is becoming more aware now though, and he has said sorry to her a few times for overreacting and getting upset with her over something where it wasn't really warranted.

My dh has also commented how he thinks I am such a great Mom, and that it is a wonderful gift I have. He admires how I am so patient, etc. He thinks I have the best instincts as a Mom and understand things he never does. However, he does get angry with me about a lot of how I do things - like asking him if we can turn the tv off because I don't want her watching commercials and innappropriate content. He doesn't get it because he'll say she's in the other room! But I say, what if she walks in on something inappropriate for her to watch? She did one time - a crime show - and she asked me later "why were they shooting and killing? - in the second that she watched it before the tv was turned off, she was traumatized by that and has been obsessed with shooting and killing since. So I ask him, if you think I have great instincts, why do you get so mad at me when I use them? He says he gets mad at me when I undermine him. However, I *only* step in when I think he is being unfair with her or talking in not nice tones with her. But he gets really upset with me when I do. I told him something similar to the Mama Bear thing a pp said, but I thinks I'm saying he's horrible when I say that.

That said, he had a Dad who had a bad temper and a Mom who could be really critical and not there for him emotionally sometimes, so he is extremely defensive and thinks I'm saying he's horrible when I'm just expressing my feelings if something concerns me. I worry that dd might grow up the same way because he has such a bad temper. But if I mention this, he gets really upset, and says he is nowhere near as bad as his Dad. Which is probably true, but dd doesn't know that, and it can affect her the same way. This is another reason I really wanted to go to counseling, because maybe he wouldn't be so defensive in there and I could actually voice my concerns without it ending in a fight. It has worked, he is much less defensive in there, and we have an objective person that can point out things we both are contributing to our communication problems with parenting, etc.

I have found when I am less reactive (and I'm very reactive) and more calm about things, then things usually don't escalate as bad. He was actually the one that suggested this. Apparently I do something with my eyes when I react that reminds him of what his mother did when she would overreact, and he thinks I am saying he is horrible when I do that. And if I try to say it in a way less directed at him and saying this is something we both need to work on (because I can be guilty too - but even if I don't think I am). So we're trying, and it slowly slowly is working, I hope.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I think a good place to start might be to get your husband to agree to always give a reason and an alternative when 'laying down the law'. And then step back and see how things develop from then on.

It should be much better for your daughter to hear "No, you can't have any more oranges. Eating that many isn't good for you, have some cheese instead" than "No more oranges, because I said so", even if I personally think the idea of limiting oranges is silly. And perhaps having to articulate these things will reduce some of the really arbitrary limitations. Even if not, it's an immediate relatively simple change than could diffuse some tension while the two of you talk about more general parenting guidelines about how many and what sort of limits are appropriate.

This also gives you the opportunity to respond to "No more oranges" with something like "Sweetie, Daddy doesn't want you to have any more oranges right now. Why do you think that's bad, DH, and what can she have instead?" which lets you get on BOTH your daughter's and your husband's "side".


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

I hope you and your dh find a way to connect and overcome this issue in a way that honours all of you.

I don't know if this is proper forum etiquette (to bring up other threads), but based on your other thread regarding your mother and that your dh didn't want her back and now she's back, it sounds like he (and you!) are feeling out of control.

Again,


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## DianaCA (Nov 17, 2007)

When you're down you get a high from making others feel down.


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## melanie_rabbitbarn (Mar 28, 2007)

I haven't read all the responses, but I thought I'd add from a recent conversation with my DH. He remembers a time when he was about 4 or 5 when his Dad spanked him (DH says he deserved it) and his Mom blew up all over his Dad for spanking him. DH hardly even remembers the spanking--whether it hurt or not--but he has very painful memories of his parents' disagreement. Long story short, I think it would be wise to let it go for the time (as long as he's not going to harm her)--present a united front--and discuss these issues when your DC isn't around. If you don't attack him and you do let him know how important it is to you that the two of you agree, maybe you can work it out.

I agree with a PP that it's good to recognize that you and your dh are different people with different histories... and that's OK. Let him be Dad in his own way, not your way.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

For every story like that, I can tell you a story of a deeply hurt adult who wondered why his parent did not stick up for him.

I have several friends, in fact, who have been hurt by the "united front" strategy.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
For every story like that, I can tell you a story of a deeply hurt adult who wondered why his parent did not stick up for him.

I have several friends, in fact, who have been hurt by the "united front" strategy.

Really? Over stuff like more oranges? My parents constantly bickered in front of us about what the other was doing. Very occasionally I felt glad that my dad had stuck up for me, but more often I felt kind of yucky, like a victim, and betrayed that my mom would treat me so poorly that my dad felt like he needed to defend me. And then I remember even feeling sorry for my mom, like I was making it sound worse than it was, or that my misbehavior was causing her to be on the outs with my dad.

Granted, my parents had a very strained relationship, and most of their disagreements about parenting were related to their overall unhappiness and discord, but I hated to be the object of MORE disagreement and tension.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well I think the important part of my point is the healthy conflict resolution and communication.

Not necessarily oranges, but definitely more major things and spanking and such.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't have any book references, but I'm sure you could at least find something online about the difference between authoritarian and authoritative parenting. It sounds like your husband is leaning towards the former but could be happy embracing the later if he knew the difference.


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
For every story like that, I can tell you a story of a deeply hurt adult who wondered why his parent did not stick up for him.

I have several friends, in fact, who have been hurt by the "united front" strategy.

I'm one of those people. My dad was abusive -- physically to one of my sisters and verbally to the rest of us. My mom was super strict and a control freak, but not really abusive, but I never got how she could stand by and watch our dad drag my sister by the hair or belittle all of us the way he did.

To the OP -- your DH sounds a lot like me, I'm sorry to say, or at least the me I was before having my son. I know my behavior stemmed from my crappy childhood and feeling the need to impose control when I felt I had none. Even though I hated being treated this way as a child, I grew up feeling that kids should do what they're told no matter what. And I felt that once I made a statement or rule that I. could. not. back. down. Even if I realized deep down that I was wrong or it wasn't that big of a deal after all, I'd said it and I had to enforce it. I think it was tied to big insecurity on my part. After all, someone who feels secure is more willing to reflect and admit that they are wrong.

But now that my son is here I just so understand that he is a person like me and deserves respect and patience. My job is not to control him but to nurture him. I just grew up being raised by parents who were never wrong, not matter what, and who felt that my opinion did not matter AT ALL, that it was hard to shake that off.

I still slip into the random-rules mode sometimes (about other things than DS) and DH calls me on it. It's painful to admit that I'm doing this, but I'm getting so much better.

I hope your family is able to resolve this issue.


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