# Was I being petty?



## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

My sister called me tonight to find out what I was doing (cleaning out the kids' dressers of all the stuff they've outgrown). When she heard I had a garbage bag out of my DS's room, she said "oh, can I have it for ____, they could really use them and don't have a lot of money." These are a couple who had a baby boy on May 7, and managed to find a way to pay to have him mutilated this week.









It's been on my mind all week, that poor baby boy with that awful, fresh wound.







Without even thinking, I told my sister "no, they can't have any of DS's stuff. If they can afford to have cosmetic surgery performed on their son's penis, they don't need hand-me-downs from me."

My sister told me I was being petty and that it was not my place to "judge" them for deciding to circ. I think it's my right to do what I want with my LOs outgrown clothes, and I'd rather donate them to charity than give them to a couple that I took the time to show a ton of literature to, and who still opted to do this to their son.

Fortunately, they are only the third couple I know who've circ'ed. Meaning the intact boys are WELL in the majority around here.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

I'd have probably had the same reaction that your sister did, but at the same time, it's your choice to do what you like with your stuff.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

You have every right to give or not give away your clothing, but your _reasoning_ is petty. If they were asking for money to get the procedure done, that would be a completely appropriate response, but the circ and the clothing are too unrelated to try to connect them, IMO.

I'm sure others will disagree.


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

I think I reacted the way I did because I keep hearing how the mom can only take 1 month off work because they can't afford to make ends meet on maternity benefits (55% of wage), how they are barely scraping by. Yet somehow, they come up with $300 to pay for a circ? In my mind, if they can come up with that kind of money...

I've just been frustrated because I provided so much information to them when I found out that they were planning to. Especially being here in Canada where the rate is so low, why did they do that to their son?? I was tempted to offer to put an equal amount of money into an education fund for their DS if they would leave him intact.


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

I don't think it's unrelated. If they chose to spend money on an unnesissary and harmful surgery rather than on kids clothes or whatever, that's not the op's fault. I feel strongly about circ as do many here and I do judge. I'm not afraid to say that.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

It is your choice, but your reasoning is illogical.


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## Eben'sMama (Jun 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhiannon Feimorgan* 
I don't think it's unrelated. If they chose to spend money on an unnesissary and harmful surgery rather than on kids clothes or whatever, that's not the op's fault. I feel strongly about circ as do many here and I do judge. I'm not afraid to say that.









:


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## DanelleB (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiannon Feimorgan
I don't think it's unrelated. If they chose to spend money on an unnesissary and harmful surgery rather than on kids clothes or whatever, that's not the op's fault. I feel strongly about circ as do many here and I do judge. I'm not afraid to say that.
Exactly! I think I would have reacted the same way. However I also would have reacted the same if they had just purchased a $300 TV or camera or something equally unnecessary, but claim not to be able to make ends meet.


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
You have every right to give or not give away your clothing, but your _reasoning_ is petty.

Really?

How so?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jjawm* 
It is your choice, but your reasoning is illogical.

Really?

How so?


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

I don't think it's petty or illogical at all.

I would flat out refuse to donate clothing or any other baby items to parents who circed their child.


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## kapatasana (Apr 5, 2008)

I totally understand your anger and frustration and feel you are totally justified in that regard, however; if it were me I would still give the clothes to their child. I would think of it as a gift to him, not to his parents. My SIL and BIL use To Train Up a Child on my sweet nephews (they circ'd them too, and while both upset me, the former is what breaks my heart the most) but I still send them presents. I don't think I could bring myself to support the parents or give them anything more than a holiday card, but I am happy to send gifts to my nephews, I don't want to punish them for their parents cruelty and stupidity.
If I were in your position though, where the child involved is an infant I suppose my actions might depend on whether or not he actually did need clothes (like if he had very few things to wear), even if the reason for his need _was_ his parents preference to spend money on genital mutilation. I guess since it's not his fault, I would give them to him if he needed them. However, I don't know the situation, and you can do what you want with your kid's stuff. If you don't feel right about it you don't feel right about it.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

Are you trying to punish the parents and the child? What good is your reaction doing? Petty is a good word for it.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DanelleB* 
Exactly! I think I would have reacted the same way. However I also would have reacted the same if they had just purchased a $300 TV or camera or something equally unnecessary, but claim not to be able to make ends meet.

Yes, to all of this! But as someone who really has been broke before, folks spending money on "extras" while claiming to be "broke" is one of my pet peeves







They can do whatever they want with their money and that's fine with me, but I'm not going to believe that they're truly broke if they're eating out, buying new TVs, or getting tattoos/cosmetic surgery while claiming to be broke.

Then again, people give me hand-me-downs and I'm not broke (nor do I claim to be)







So I don't know.

love and peace.


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## asunlitrose (Apr 19, 2008)

I can see where you're coming from but why punish the baby? It's not his fault he was circed, and he will be the one wearing the clothes.

If you give the clothes to charity how can you know who will receive them and whether or not they've circed?


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her









I don't think you're being petty or illogical. It was selfish of them to put a cosmetic procedure ahead of their child having CLOTHES. You're not obligated to give them anything.









Sell the clothes and donate the money to an anti-circ group


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## christifav (Nov 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her









I don't think you're being petty or illogical. It was selfish of them to put a cosmetic procedure ahead of their child having CLOTHES. You're not obligated to give them anything.









Sell the clothes and donate the money to an anti-circ group

















:


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I think it's petty for you to tell her that but I think it's justified, kwim?


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## asunlitrose (Apr 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her









Did the OP or did the OP not ask for opinions? I read "Was I being petty?" as a question to be answered. Maybe my reading comprehension is off.

I didn't say anything about other commenters, just voiced my opinion, which was asked for. Any time you ask for opinions you should be prepared for ones that differ from yours, and I don't think I should be considered "ridiculous" because I disagree with your feeling on this.

The OP is in no way obligated to follow my opinion or yours -- she's going to feel the way she feels, and that's fine.


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## rik8144 (Apr 3, 2007)

If they can't afford to take care of their babys basic needs (ie: clothes) but they can afford to circ him then why do they deserve any handouts? They could come up with $300 in circ money but not clothes money????


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her









I don't think you're being petty or illogical. It was selfish of them to put a cosmetic procedure ahead of their child having CLOTHES. You're not obligated to give them anything.









Sell the clothes and donate the money to an anti-circ group

















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:
I soooo agree with you here. If they could "really use them" "don't have a lot of money" why the h#ll did they spend $300 on a CIRC of all things! Something that the baby didn't need (unlike clothes) and definately did not want(unlike clothes)? They could have outfitted him for a couple of YEARS with $300 spent on second hand clothes.

I don't think you were being petty OP, I think his parents were being petty and selfish wasting all of that money on making him "look like Daddy" instead of spending it on things he could really use.

Noone who would flush all that money away on something so selfish deserves "freebies" IMO.

Good for you for saying no.
Take care,
Tara


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## YesandNo (Mar 16, 2008)

It would have been kind of you to give them the clothing. You withheld it and instead are giving it to a nameless charity where most / many of the beneficiaries circ'ed anyway. So I'd say it was petty.

In an ideal world, charitable acts should not be contingent upon your approval of the receivers' actions. In other words, you shouldn't just be generous with those who you give the stamp of approval. Then it's not charity, it's a reward.

But it's your stuff, you have no obligation to give it to them, and I wouldn't worry about it too much. The mom is working, they have income, obviously the little boy will get clothing. Not a big deal, really.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Nope, your reasoning was principled, not petty. You were solicited for the items and had every right to decline for whatever reason.....and I would say that's an excellent one. They made the sacrifices necessary to have their child's genitals mutilated, so I'm sure they'll find a way to clothe him.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

When I think about it, is it any different from no longer supporting charities that might try to start mutilating children in Africa with donations? There are charities I don't think I would be giving money too because they intend to direct the money to circumcision. Is that being petty?

I understand how people feel this is directed at the child but I am not sure I can call it petty. I might consider the parents of the child selfish since they wasted what little money they had on something the child didn't need. Something that perhaps the father wanted done to the child so that he looked like him.

I can see this from both perspectives but at the end of the day I think I would come down on the side of the OP.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

How is it any different than refusing to give stuff to someone who goes out and spends $300 on any other frivolous expense? Would your sister think you were being petty if the $300 had gone towards veneers for the dad's teeth?









And why did she tell you about the circ anyway? If she wants to get you upset, she shouldn't do it right before asking you for favors.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

if the clothes are the OP's to give (not her son's), then they are the parents' to receive (not the circed boy). babies could care less what they wear, provided that they are warm enough and somewhat clean. (my 2 year old has a closet full of cute outfits but won't let me take off her PJs, so wears those most days.)

i thought of another approach you could take if you have the guts. instead of giving the clothes to your sister to give to them, you could personally go over there with a few basic items, and talk with them (gently) about how is your son doing, i heard you decided to circ (after you [personally?] handed them a bunch of anti-circ literature). what made you decide to do that? how are you able to afford it? wow, i'm surprised you decided to do that, how much did it cost anyway? wow, you could have bought a whole lot of clothes for that amount of money! feel them out and see if there are any regrets, and without appearing judgmental toward their decision, maybe you can plant another seed with the hope that if there ever is a second baby boy, they can make a better choice.


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## phdmama06 (Aug 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kapatasana* 
I totally understand your anger and frustration and feel you are totally justified in that regard, however; if it were me I would still give the clothes to their child.

I agree with this. While I do agree with you that it seems strange that the parents of this boy shelled out the $ to circ him yet are struggling to afford clothes for him, at the same time, it's not the poor kid's fault his parents made that decision. While I would not support the couple's decision (and although I don't necessarily feel good about this, I do judge...) I would still give the clothes to them because they would be a help to the child.

ETA - I do not think you are being petty in what you said about the circ, though. I see where you are coming from in thinking that if they can afford the circ, then surely they can afford to buy clothing too (or should have bought the clothes instead of the circ if their funds were limited). But again, I would still see giving the clothes as helping the baby, not the parents.


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## Calyxir (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her









I don't think you're being petty or illogical. It was selfish of them to put a cosmetic procedure ahead of their child having CLOTHES. You're not obligated to give them anything.









Sell the clothes and donate the money to an anti-circ group

















:

It's not petty to not want to have anything to do with someone who claims not to have any money and yet pays $$$ to have an unnecessary and damaging surgery done on their child.

Part of the reason that this abomination continues is because others keep quiet and there are no _consequences_ for doing it. If these penis-fashionistas thought that their actions were going to be frowned on and that they would be thought of as pariahs in their community _they wouldn't do it_.

You did good, don't let any circumcision apologists get you down.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YesandNo* 
It would have been kind of you to give them the clothing. You withheld it and instead are giving it to a nameless charity where most / many of the beneficiaries circ'ed anyway. So I'd say it was petty.

Uh, she's in Canada. So no, most of the babies probably won't be circ'd.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhiannon Feimorgan* 
I don't think it's unrelated. If they chose to spend money on an unnesissary and harmful surgery rather than on kids clothes or whatever, that's not the op's fault. I feel strongly about circ as do many here and I do judge. I'm not afraid to say that.

I agree.
It may seem illogical "after the fact", but the emotions are still there.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I agree with selling the clothes and donating the money to an anti-circ group.









And if they ask if you have any baby clothes they can borrow, I would tell them exactly what you did with them.







Not in a judgemental way...just in a matter-of-factly way.

If they are that broke and need clothes they can shop for second-hand stuff. Seriously, at yard sales, you can outfit a newborn for like $10.

The baby is not going to suffer because you did not provide him a wardrobe.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Does anyone here _really_ think the parents had the money in hand and said "Well. We have not a stitch of clothes for this baby. Nothing. But, we really want that circ! Guess Junior will be nude."

I'm sure the OP's clothes could have been put to use, but I doubt the baby is suffering w/o them.

And I would have given the clothes. My giving or not giving isn't going to change the kid's penis any, so he might as well have a decent sized wardrobe.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Does anyone here _really_ think the parents had the money in hand and said "Well. We have not a stitch of clothes for this baby. Nothing. But, we really want that circ! Guess Junior will be nude."

I'm sure the OP's clothes could have been put to use, but I doubt the baby is suffering w/o them.

And I would have given the clothes. My giving or not giving isn't going to change the kid's penis any, so he might as well have a decent sized wardrobe.

Exactly. When I was pregnant with DD, we were pretty broke and I really wanted a new car seat for her even though we had a perfectly good cosco scenera. Even though I spent money I really didn't need to on something extra, our kid didn't hurt for necessities. We made do. I shopped at yard sales and sold a few things to buy more things.


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## 19spitfire (Dec 8, 2007)

Interesting debate!
Hmm...how would I handle this situation?
I see the refusal to give this family clothes as a denial of friendship to them.

If I liked this family and hope to continue a friendship with them then denying them the clothing would be petty because I wouldn't have thought about all the other areas where we agree and value eachother. I do have friends who have circumcised their children and I think if I were to apply this principle to all of them I would be being petty For Sure. As abhorant as circumcision is, it is still legal and widely accepted in society and I don't see myself being able to (or wanting to) alienate every person who chooses circumcision.

On the other hand: If this family were people who I really could care less about developing a friendship with, circumcision or not, then denying them clothing would not be petty. I see it like the instant judgement you give to a homeless person asking for $: how do they look like they spend their $ and do I want my money to go to that purpose.

So, the difference between being petty or not, breaks down to whether this is friendship or charity. Of course, you have other factors involved, including how this makes your sister feel and whether this family is one you will see all the time and in what situations you will see them. I am sure it a much more complicated situation than is easy to post on this forum. I wish you luck


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
You have every right to give or not give away your clothing, but your _reasoning_ is petty. If they were asking for money to get the procedure done, that would be a completely appropriate response, but the circ and the clothing are too unrelated to try to connect them, IMO.

I'm sure others will disagree.

Well let me ask you this then. Say if the same couple had a daughter, and they always talked about having no money to get by. Then one day you find out they bought a state-of-the-art DVD recorder/player for $300? Then later they asked you for any hand-me-downs because they hardly had any money to get by.

Would you connect the $300 with the hand-me-downs now?

The OP said they were given information, so even if they still believed circ did not cause harm, they at least knew that circumcision was nothing short of a cosmetic procedure, and if they really needed to save money they should have looked into it more to make sure the surgery was not a waste of money.

You cant claim to need help if your going to be so reckless with your money.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Raelyn is in Canada. She will have no problem finding an intact baby to give the clothes to.

Remember, these are the baby clothes that _her child wore_. How would she feel remembering her son's clothing is now in the hand of some monster parents who circed their son even though 95% ++ of other local boys are intact?


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## nini02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Well let me ask you this then. Say if the same couple had a daughter, and they always talked about having no money to get by. Then one day you find out they bought a state-of-the-art DVD recorder/player for $300? Then later they asked you for any hand-me-downs because they hardly had any money to get by.

Would you connect the $300 with the hand-me-downs now?

The OP said they were given information, so even if they still believed circ did not cause harm, they at least knew that circumcision was nothing short of a cosmetic procedure, and if they really needed to save money they should have looked into it more to make sure the surgery was not a waste of money.

You cant claim to need help if your going to be so reckless with your money.

I agree 100%


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I wouldn't give someone like that a red cent. I don't think it's petty.


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## DanelleB (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Well let me ask you this then. Say if the same couple had a daughter, and they always talked about having no money to get by. Then one day you find out they bought a state-of-the-art DVD recorder/player for $300? Then later they asked you for any hand-me-downs because they hardly had any money to get by.

Would you connect the $300 with the hand-me-downs now?

The OP said they were given information, so even if they still believed circ did not cause harm, they at least knew that circumcision was nothing short of a cosmetic procedure, and if they really needed to save money they should have looked into it more to make sure the surgery was not a waste of money.

You cant claim to need help if your going to be so reckless with your money.









That's exactly what I was saying.


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## kapatasana (Apr 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Does anyone here _really_ think the parents had the money in hand and said "Well. We have not a stitch of clothes for this baby. Nothing. But, we really want that circ! Guess Junior will be nude."

I'm sure the OP's clothes could have been put to use, but I doubt the baby is suffering w/o them.

And I would have given the clothes. My giving or not giving isn't going to change the kid's penis any, so he might as well have a decent sized wardrobe.









: Good point (s).


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Those who said it was not petty, would you refuse charity to a parent in need who voluntarily chose to feed formula but had no compelling reason not to exclusively breastfeed?

Would it make a difference in either case if the parents secondguessed their choice after the fact?

Would it make a difference if the prarents were given bad circing or BFing information and made their choice on faulty health care advice?

Would it make a difference if the financial difficulty arose after the decision was made?

If you had no idea the parents made either choice, would you ask them directly before giving them the items and keep them if your requirements were not met?

I'm not debating it, I'm just wondering.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

I think it was ridiculous of your sister to ask for you to JUDGE whether or not to give the clothes to them, and then condemn you for your judgment. IMO.







:


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

That would be my initial reaction as well. But on the flip side of that, the circ certainly wasn't the babies choice. Why punish him more than he already has been?


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

I do think it is petty. Just because your sister didn't listen to you and NOT circ. you refuse to give her baby clothes on the merits of it. Would you have given them to her if she didn't circ.? I see your point though w/ the money, but maybe they don't think of it as a cosmetic surgery, some still believe it is better/more hygenic for boys.

I told my family/friends about not vaxing and to research so if something happens to their children or they need something I guess I should tell them 'no' because they spent money and took the time to take them to get shot-up instead of researching.

I'm glad my family doesn't treat me like that because I do NOT do something they tell me too (vaxing, hospital-birth).

If you were never planning on giving it to them whether they did NOT circ. then don't, but if your only reason is because they did. Again I think it is petty.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Those who said it was not petty, would you refuse charity to a parent in need who voluntarily chose to feed formula but had no compelling reason not to exclusively breastfeed?

Would it make a difference in either case if the parents secondguessed their choice after the fact?

Would it make a difference if the prarents were given bad circing or BFing information and made their choice on faulty health care advice?

Would it make a difference if the financial difficulty arose after the decision was made?

If you had no idea the parents made either choice, would you ask them directly before giving them the items and keep them if your requirements were not met?

I'm not debating it, I'm just wondering.


Well first I think there is a BIG difference between parents who choose not to breast feed, and parents who circ. The first is a parenting choice, that arguably would be MUCH better for the child if they did bf. While the other is a human rights violation, simply because it takes away control over ones body.

The main reason why I would object is because I feel it would be like me supporting their decision. (would you give clothing to parents who spent their money on a female circ?) There are not enough active voices in our society that say "circumcision is wrong". Or at least too much silent support. I dont want to make the ramifications of circumcision easier on them. If parents are going to circ (because there is no law in place to stop them) at least I dont have to reward those choices that I think should be illegal.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
I told my family/friends about not vaxing and to research so if something happens to their children or they need something I guess I should tell them 'no' because they spent money and took the time to take them to get shot-up instead of researching.

I'm glad my family doesn't treat me like that because I do NOT do something they tell me too (vaxing, hospital-birth).

Yeah, but there is a BIG difference between someone doing something you dont like, and someone doing something that you think should be illegal.


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## snangel (Nov 27, 2006)

First of all I too am in Canada, and the circ rate here is low, not great but way lower then the states.
Second no I would not give them the clothes. They had to go out of their way to even find someone to do the circ, so they did it all knowing full well what circ is and does.
I have made a choice that I cut ties with people who know better and circ anyway. I will not give clothes, food, or friendship to people who abuse and mutilate their children knowing full well what they are doing is wrong.
Yes I judge, oh well.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't think your reasoning is necessarily faulty. If they had money to spend on an unnecessary anything (circ, camera, vacation), then they aren't in dire straits and don't desperately need the clothes. So if you're deciding where to bestow the clothes based on financial need, then they wouldn't be at the top of the list.

Is that really what you're basing your decision on, though? I mean, I'd give hand-me-downs to a friend/neighbor if they wanted them, regardless of whether or not they financially *needed* them. If you're still on relatively good terms with them, but holding back the clothes because you're angry, then I think it is somewhat petty. It would be different if you're going to cut them out of your life entirely and have nothing to do with them, but to continue to interact with them and just refuse to give them baby clothes seems a bit silly.

Cutting someone out of your life because they mutilate a child? Appropriate.
Using child mutilation as a reason to not give someone some onsies? Petty and passive agressive.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I wouldn't. Thankfully my SIL chose not to (I pestered her about it her whole PG) and I know my sis and her BF won't either. I'd probably wash my hands of both of them if they did. Petty? Maybe but I don't care.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla* 
I wouldn't. Thankfully my SIL chose not to (I pestered her about it her whole PG) and I know my sis and her BF won't either. I'd probably wash my hands of both of them if they did. Petty? Maybe but I don't care.

You would disown your sister and future nephews b/c they circumcised? Wow. I guess I will never understand this attitude.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
You would disown your sister and future nephews b/c they circumcised? Wow. I guess I will never understand this attitude.

I completely understand the attitude of not being able to be around someone who sexually abuses a baby after being given all the information.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I have no respect for someone who knowingly does wrong. You see the videos, you read what all is lost during RIC etc and you STILL circ? Nope, don't want to be around you. I don't believe just because someone is biologically connected to me that they automatically have a right to be part of my family.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
You would disown your sister and future nephews b/c they circumcised? Wow. I guess I will never understand this attitude.

I would not disown friends, because I know people are complex, people do good things and bad things and people make mistakes.

BUT, I can completely understand this attitude because I know I would have a really hard time at first being around them, knowing what they did (and were given all the proper information, by me)

How can you not understand her attitude?


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Well first I think there is a BIG difference between parents who choose not to breast feed, and parents who circ. The first is a parenting choice, that arguably would be MUCH better for the child if they did bf. While the other is a human rights violation, simply because it takes away control over ones body.

The main reason why I would object is because I feel it would be like me supporting their decision. (would you give clothing to parents who spent their money on a female circ?) There are not enough active voices in our society that say "circumcision is wrong". Or at least too much silent support. I dont want to make the ramifications of circumcision easier on them. If parents are going to circ (because there is no law in place to stop them) at least I dont have to reward those choices that I think should be illegal.

I agree. And I'd probably have the same reaction as the OP.


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## Calyxir (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
You would disown your sister and future nephews b/c they circumcised? Wow. I guess I will never understand this attitude.

Yes, the same as I'd disown any close relative of mine who turned out to be a paedophile and into molesting little girls, which is equally despicable behaviour. Why on earth should anyone like that think that their actions are somehow acceptable to normal rational human beings?

I don't think I'm ever going to understand this finding any behaviour acceptable and not saying anything to the perpetrator, just because they happen to be a relative/friend/colleague/someone you met on the bus.

_Aren't you ever going to take a stand and advocate for the children being mutilated? How about if their parents decide that beating them up is part of their discipline regime?_


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

I don't think its petty or illogical at all. I wouldn't give anything to anyone who was in need because they blew money on a circ, just the same way I told my friend that I would not loan her money for her rent after she blew half her paycheck on pot.

$300 could have clothed that baby for at least a year and he'd still have his foreskin as well... what a waste.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

I totally agree with you on that note about how much they paid for circ their son, now they want donated clothes? I don't see how someone can support something so wrong! DON'T FEEL BAD!


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## katec67 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calyxir* 







:

Part of the reason that this abomination continues is because others keep quiet and there are no _consequences_ for doing it. If these penis-fashionistas thought that their actions were going to be frowned on and that they would be thought of as pariahs in their community _they wouldn't do it_.

You did good, don't let any circumcision apologists get you down.









: I completely agree with this. What you did was not petty, it was a statement based on your strong moral belief that circumcision is cruel and useless. I would have done the exact same thing. Anyway, it's clothing; it's not like you threw away extra food that would have fed their starving child.


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

Rather than quoting a whole lot of replies, I'll answer as many questions as I can remember here.









These are friends of my sister, so acquaintances of mine. They aren't in the same circle of friends as I'm in, and likely the mom won't run into me in my AP parenting circles, since she's not AP at all (already quit breastfeeding too, because her "breasts hurt"). I don't plan to ever see them again, as I'm thoroughly disgusted with the parents. Being young, I never expected them to consider circ'ing, so the original info I gave them was on intact care (since I know the dad is circ'ed...he is my sister's ex-bf's brother). That is when I found out they were circ'ing so I put together a whole bunch of information, to which they replied "well we've already made our decision but we'll read it anyhow."

Both parents are tattoo'ed and pierced all over their body, so a part of me is even more disgusted that they would permanently modify their son's body, but then, a part of me thinks that they obviously were able to make the choice to put holes and ink in their own bodies, why wouldn't they give their son the right to choose?

The baby is not naked, he has clothes, so he won't be wrapped in a potato sack if I don't give him these clothes. And I like how several posters mentioned that people need to do things to let others know that circ'ing is wrong - even if I'm the only person who says no to them for this, at least someone did.

And if my sister had a boy and circ'ed him, it would forever change my relationship with her. I can't even imagine how badly that would wound my heart if she did that to my nephew. I am not sure I would disown her, but I don't think I'd see her outside of family functions, and I would be sure to let her know that I would be helping my nephew find a lawyer when he turns 18 to sue her (for knowing better in the first place and still doing it!). Fortunately, she has recently told me that she would not circ - though it wasn't from my intactivism that changed her mind. It was her close friend who told her that she was sitting in the Dr office waiting for her "turn" to have her son circ'ed, when she heard an awful baby scream that she said "never should a baby make that kind of cry." She promptly walked out with her intact son and now has another intact son too. So I'm glad to know my sister wouldn't do that, but my sis isn't an intactivist, she believes its a parent's decision and doesn't care one way or another.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

guess i am petty toooo nope wouldnt go to them. they are not in need too bad they were not then maybe the baby would be whole


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YesandNo* 
It would have been kind of you to give them the clothing. You withheld it and instead are giving it to a nameless charity where most / many of the beneficiaries circ'ed anyway. So I'd say it was petty.

In an ideal world, charitable acts should not be contingent upon your approval of the receivers' actions. In other words, you shouldn't just be generous with those who you give the stamp of approval. Then it's not charity, it's a reward.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jjawm* 
Are you trying to punish the parents and the child?









:

I really like I lot of the stuff I see on MDC about logical consequences- don't have it all down yet, but I'm learning. I know we're talking about adults here, and not children, but I still think it's best to use logical approaches with any age group. Circing and clothing are just NOT related enough to be a logical or natural consequence. (And maybe the OP didn't intend for her decision to be a "consequence", but that's certainly the end result of it.)


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jwhispers* 
When I think about it, is it any different from no longer supporting charities that might try to start mutilating children in Africa with donations? There are charities I don't think I would be giving money too because they intend to direct the money to circumcision. Is that being petty?

I understand how people feel this is directed at the child but I am not sure I can call it petty. I might consider the parents of the child selfish since they wasted what little money they had on something the child didn't need. Something that perhaps the father wanted done to the child so that he looked like him.

I can see this from both perspectives but at the end of the day I think I would come down on the side of the OP.

I came across this situation this evening. I was at the Dell.ca website and at the add-ons section, a list of printers. One printer choice said that $5 goes towards the fight for AIDS in Africa. It gave me pause for thought on _how_ they're fighting AIDS. If it's to help execute a highly flawed study results and to recklessly promote dangerous sex practices post-circumcision (African men thinking circumcision is an "invisible condom" and/or those who have sex before fully healed), then I won't donate to such a charity. I'm willing to get a _full_ disclosure on *how* my money is being used before I donate.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I don't know if this is helpful or not (???), but I worked at Value Village (aka Savers in most of the U.S. and Australia) and each store is assigned a charity and part of your donation/purchases goes to help those charities' programs. I would do what the OP said and say I cannot donate the clothes based on the matter of principle [if a couple circ's and has no money for food and asks _me_, then I would say no based on the same matter of principle and tell them where the nearest location of the foodbank is..... which would TICK ME OFF doubly because essentially, they're taking the food out of someone ELSE'S mouth because they spent all _their_ money on a totally cosmetic procedure! See what I mean?]. I would say I'm donating the clothes to Value Village and if _they_ want the clothes, they can buy it from the store, where their purchases help a charity.

I'm w/ the OP on this; and the other poster who said they wouldn't because it shows parents who circ, there's no consequences for their selfish actions and that only lets this horrible practice continue.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I think what you really want is for people to tell you you aren't being petty. Problem is, yes, you're being petty. You have every right to be petty, and to do what you like with your property, but it is still petty. Particularly since your sister is asking, not them, you're being petty to her. You could just tell her no, you have another source you want to give them to.

I think you need to decide really, if you want the circing family in your life at all. If not, be clear about that, set the boundary now, don't hang out with them, tell your sister you don't want anything to do with them and will never forgive them, and be done with it. Now, if you'd done this and then your sister asked you to donate clothes to them, I'd say no, you weren't being petty, you were sticking to your principles. But it doesn't sound like that. Or else get over it, be sad, mourn, make your peace with them, and then be friends again, or give them clothes. But don't "stay friends" while making snide comments and jabs and resenting them the whole time. That's not worth it for either one of you.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I don't think it's punishing the baby at all. Babies don't like clothes anyway! I doubt he'll notice that his body's naked. On the other hand, I'm sure he's already noticed that his glans is naked.







:


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I think you need to decide really, if you want the circing family in your life at all. If not, be clear about that, set the boundary now, don't hang out with them, tell your sister you don't want anything to do with them and will never forgive them, and be done with it. Now, if you'd done this and then your sister asked you to donate clothes to them, I'd say no, you weren't being petty, you were sticking to your principles. But it doesn't sound like that. Or else get over it, be sad, mourn, make your peace with them, and then be friends again, or give them clothes. But don't "stay friends" while making snide comments and jabs and resenting them the whole time. That's not worth it for either one of you.

See post #58. I am not "friends" with them, simply acquaintances through my sister, who is friends with them. I don't plan to ever see them again and highly doubt I will run into the mom in my social circles as we are very different.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

If they can afford cosmetic surgery, they can afford clothes. $300 is a lot of baby clothes at a secondhand store. I'd rather give my stuff to someone who actually CAN'T come up with $300.

And this has nothing to do with circ, it has to do with pissing away $300 on a "luxury" and ignoring a necessity. If $300 can be pissed away, I'd rather my stuff go to someone who doesn't even have the $300 to decide about.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raelynn* 
See post #58. I am not "friends" with them, simply acquaintances through my sister, who is friends with them. I don't plan to ever see them again and highly doubt I will run into the mom in my social circles as we are very different.

Then you should have just said no, you had other plans for the clothes. Done. And if pressed, just tell her you've stated your principles before and have other plans for the clothes. And don't feel bad about it either.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I'd do exactly what you did, OP, and I'd hope my sister told her friends why. There is no.way. those people would be getting my clothes.

I went to look up "petty", to see if I was understanding it as other people seem to be using it.

1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
_Circumcision is a big HUGE deal to me. If I'd given the info that the OP gave, and they spent all their money on it knowing it was not necessary and harmful, I would not find that to be a trivial grievance. One vote against petty._
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
_Yup. I am narrowminded -singleminded, even- on this topic. Circumcision is wrong. Parents who do it knowing it is wrong do not deserve anything from me. One vote for petty._
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
_No, I'd not keep my clothes to be mean. I'm very generous, but I direct my generosity to areas I think it is most deserved and will be best used for the causes I support. One vote against petty._

Well, it turned out 2 against 1. It's not petty. And if it was, I wouldn't care in the slightest. I judge them harshly and they deserve it, having the inofrmation in hand as they did. I'm with you, OP.


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## pantufla (Jun 7, 2007)

I certainly don't donate money or goods to charities that don't support my views. I wouldn't donate to a charity that supports RIC. Why should I donate clothing to a family who did something that I believe is akin to torture? Especially since they are not friends and I will not likely run into them again. Is it petty if an organization calls my house asking for money on behalf of a cause I don't support, and I tell them no?


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom* 
they deserve it, having the inofrmation in hand as they did. I'm with you, OP.

DH agrees that because they were informed and still chose to do wrong, it's not petty to deny them, esp since it's not a need.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I'm like that with those religious feed-the-children charities. Are they like, dangling a meal in front of a hungry/starving child, but first you gotta read The Good Book. Even if it's after, I *hope* the religion part _isn't_ forced; it _should_ be optional. Besides, the one relgious org, it seems they spend a lot of money on advertising and I'd like to get their overhead to food ratio anyway.


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

************


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

circ. is a big deal to me too and i would not be donating anything to anyone who chose to do it...for ANY reason. period.

sorry..if you want my hand me downs....don't mutilate your children. if you want to mutiliate your children, dont expect anythign from me (including kind words, ever).

i cant continue friendships w/ anyone who circ's either. its just really offensive to me (not ppl who dont know better..believe me..ive BTDT...but ppl who have the knowlege, research and still do it? uh, no).


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
if you want to mutiliate your children, dont expect anythign from me (including kind words, ever).

For those of you with this point of view, when you meet people do you ask whether or not they chose/choose to circ so you can rule them out as friends right off the bat or do you just ditch them later on if it comes up in conversation?


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
For those of you with this point of view, when you meet people do you ask whether or not they chose/choose to circ so you can rule them out as friends right off the bat or do you just ditch them later on if it comes up in conversation?

See I dont think you understand what they mean. I think your perspective is that we very coldly find out who has circed a son and for no other reason then we think its wrong, we just cut them from our lives.

But for me, I couldn't be friends with them because I would feel sick being around them, knowing what they did, I just couldn't feel comfortable with them, so I would be forced to cut them out of my life in many ways. (Although if they were someone I really cared about, I would try really hard to be comfortable around them again). Like imagine you found out a friend had their daughter circumcised (prepuse removed aka clitoral hood aka foreskin). How would you feel about hanging out with them after learning that.

Parents today have the internet, and information at their finger tips. If I know that someone was presented with correct information, or correct information was right at hand and they ignored it, I would be very uncomfortable being around them, and I would not reward them with clothing for a bad parenting job, and sloppy financial planning.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
For those of you with this point of view, when you meet people do you ask whether or not they chose/choose to circ so you can rule them out as friends right off the bat or do you just ditch them later on if it comes up in conversation?

I think there are two cases to consider with regard to this situation. There are those who circumcise out of ignorance. Even today this is a large group and the situation isn't helped by those who should be properly informing parents. Although it is disappointing I think people here would be understanding of that situation while trying to educate. But then there are those who, despite knowing the facts, choose to ignore them and do it anyway. To be honest I have a hard time understanding or forgiving those actions. In the case of the OP, the fact that she is in Canada makes it even worse since the rates are so much lower, she had to pony up the dough, and find a doctor. But should or would people cut them off?

That is an interesting question and I think you'll agree that the opinions will be varied. Unfortunately, in the US where circumcision is endemic, you would be cutting off a lot of people. But I am not sure that is the best reason not to do this. I seem to remember a post on this very board from a member that spent a significant amount of time trying to educate a friend with regard to circumcision; yet the couple did it anyway. For a period of time the MDC member had cut themselves off from this friend but eventually reconnected. At some point the friend confided in this member that it was a horrible experience and after more discussion and education this member convinced her friend that she didn't have to repeat this mistake and the result was at least one subsequent boy was saved.

So the point is simply if we cut people off who make a poor decision, even when we've educated them, we are abandoning hope that we might eventually get to them and possibly condemn future boys to the same fate. Although our message is correct we are fighting a strong cultural current and keep in mind that there are member here that have circumcised one, two, and perhaps sometimes three before the message clicked. As disappointed as we may be it is proabably important that we attempt to continue to educate even those who went the wrong way on this because you never know when it will click. Just something to think about.








:


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
For those of you with this point of view, when you meet people do you ask whether or not they chose/choose to circ so you can rule them out as friends right off the bat or do you just ditch them later on if it comes up in conversation?

no i dont ask. it usually comes up since i have a baby in CD's still....and am prego. w/ another boy. but if i find out they circ., my issue at that point is whether/not they did it out of ignorance (which i have done before..im Jewish and my first 2 are circ'd..its the parenting decision i regret the most). I can understand ignorance..i can NOT understand someone doing it after having all the knowledge...so yeh, i wouldnt continue the friendship. i couldnt.

there was a group recently started in my area and they had some language w/ regard to circ. on their site that i disagreed with...so i didnt join. there is no reason for me to be around that or for those to be around me, since its such a huge issue for me....I see it as nothing more than sexual mutilaton. period.

and there are very very FEW places where i can actually say that....so pls. dont jump down my throat for feeling that way. Its a pretty black and white issue for me (as it mostly is for MDC.....as it is "the case AGAINST circ").

FTR, i do try hard to stay out of this forum b/c i do realize im not a very diplomatic spokesman for this issue. I know i need to work on that.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

I appreciate the responses. I'm somewhat more moderate on this issue, myself, but I can see where your reasoning lies. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some of the coments previously were quite...abrupt, shall we say, and I like to see that there has been serious thought behind those comments as opposed to a kneejerk response.

To be honest, I've heard some unflattering desciptions of MDC and its overzealousness in the past and I'm glad to see the generalizations aren't bearing out thus far.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hattifattener* 
I really like I lot of the stuff I see on MDC about logical consequences- don't have it all down yet, but I'm learning. I know we're talking about adults here, and not children, but I still think it's best to use logical approaches with any age group. Circing and clothing are just NOT related enough to be a logical or natural consequence. (And maybe the OP didn't intend for her decision to be a "consequence", but that's certainly the end result of it.)

But isn't this a logical consequence? Say my child had x amount of money and chose to spend it on sweets instead of clothes. Should I give the child clothes after s/he deliberately spent his/her money on something else? Sweets and clothes aren't in any way related. The relating factor is money, just like it is in the OP's case.

Giving someone what essentially is financial support when they choose to spend the money in a way that I consider immoral isn't something I'd do. If someone came to me asking for a donation (whether it be money or clothes) so that they can afford to circ their kid, I'd say no. Asking me after it's already happened wouldn't result in a different answer. I'm not financing other people's cosmetic surgery.

They had $300 to spend as they wanted to. They chose to spend it on unnecessary surgery. Bed. Made. Lie.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom* 
petty
1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
_Circumcision is a big HUGE deal to me._

Me too.
Used infant clothing, however, is not.

Saying 'you circed, so now I won't give you my hand-me-downs' sort of diminishes how big a deal circ is. It just sounds SILLY, people! I mean, how about 'You molested a child, so I won't let you have a bite of my sandwhich.' Same sort of thing.

I think if the OP had said "They mutilated their child, I don't want to have anything to do with them" that would have been better than "They decided to spend their money on a circ, I'm not giving them my son's clothes". (it sounds to me like maybe the OP is leaning more towards the first statement anyway- it's just that wording it in the second way makes it *sound* petty even if the sentiment isn't)


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

My son's clothes that he grows out of are actually really special to me and I like to give them to people and families I have warm feeling about. In a place like Canada where people should know better and have to go out of their way to circ. I don't think I'd have many warm feelings about people who circ. Petty perhaps, but the OP's clothes to be petty with.

And as far as not judging. When it comes to child abuse I think we are all free to judge! I'd hate to live in a world where we don't!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I totally understand how you feel, OP. I probably wouldn't give the clothes.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

If yyou don't feel comfortable giving them these clothes then you don't feel comfortable giving them the clothes.

Weree you being petty? Everyone has and will have different opinions but are they going to make you feel differently about the clothes? If not, then I wouldn't worry about it.


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## 2Late2BCreative (Jul 3, 2002)

Here's the deal...you can choose for whatever reason to give or not give your little one's hand-me-downs...you just decided to share with your SIL the reason why you won't give the clothes. I see your reaction more of a way to validate your own feelings. It's not about the clothes, the baby, the parents. It's simply about the circumcision. You are obviously passionate about this and you have every right to be. You've hurt noone...not even yourself...by NOT giving the hand-me-downs. I see nothing wrong with what you decided to do. Sometimes we do need to stand on our beliefs with a loud and clear statement. Sometimes we need to stand our ground with the quietness of silence. Either way, IMO it's perfectly okay how you handled things.


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

If you hadn't have personally told them the truth about circumcision, then, yes...it might have been a petty thing to do. However, because you took the time to inform them and they still did it...I don't consider it petty at all. Several hundred dollars could have gone a long way to pay for baby clothes if they were really THAT in need...


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I don't think you're being petty at all.

I am a bit confused about those who say that when you're giving the clothes to charity you're giving them to people you don't know who circ'ed or not.

I think that's not really the point.

I don't know what they have in Canada. But, if you do something like, give the clothes to goodwill, or the samaritan thrift shop (don't know if that's everywhere or not, and i'm only assuming that's what you meant when you said giving the clothing to a charity...) you're not 'GIVING' the clothes to people who are buying them who may or may not have circ'ed their boys.

you are giving the clothes to the goodwill society, or the samaritan church. the people who purchase the clothes (who may or may not have circ'ed) or not getting the clothing for free. they are giving that money to the charity society that's hosting the thrift store.

the people who may or may not have circ'ed their boys who are buying the clothes get a small benefit from purchasing the clothes at a discount. the main benefit is going in the form of $$$ to the charity you gave the clothes to.

so i think it's a huge difference between handing over the clothing directly to "needy" people for free who just finished forking the $$$ out for this cosmetic surgery and giving the clothing to a charity.

I think a lot of posters are missing the point. It's not about seeing your clothing on people who did something horrible to their sons. It's about finances, really, is what it boils down to. The OP has every right to make sure the financial boost of her clothing goes wherever she'd prefer it to. She's not "punishing" the parents or the baby by not giving them the clothing. It's about the fact that they didn't need the clothing if they had $$$ for the circ.


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

It looks to me like part of what's "fanning the flames" and polarizing this debate is the characterization of the clothing donation as an "act of charity".

I get second-hand kids clothes from people all the time. I'm very certain that not one of these thoughtful friends or family members have ever imagined they've been making a charitable donation in giving kids clothes to me! Not every act of kindness or example of sharing is "charity".

Similarly, witholding a kindness is not usually "punishing" someone and I don't think it is here, either. If that were the case, just think of how unspeakably unkind each of us is every single day! _Anything_ nice we did for anyone would equate to a series of "punishments" to all the people who weren't recipients!

On the practical side of this "punishment", CherryBomb said it best:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I don't see how it's "punishing" the baby to not give the baby free clothes that belong to her. Unless the baby is going to be butt ass naked if the OP doesn't hand over all of her clothes, that's just a ridiculous accusation. It's not like they share a rare blood type and he needs a transfusion from her ￼

Seriously, although there is poverty in Canada, we are a first-world country. _Every_ baby in Canada has clothing. Between thrift stores and garage sales, families struggling on social assistance can provide their kids with minimally-adequate wardrobes.

I'll take a minute to address the questions of Em:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Those who said it was not petty, would you refuse charity to a parent in need who voluntarily chose to feed formula but had no compelling reason not to exclusively breastfeed?

Possibly. My money, my time, my talents are all limited resources. As such, I don't think it's inappropriate to direct them to where I see (or think) they will do the most good. If I understand that my [insert resource of your choice] will make a difference in one case, and be a "passing blip" in another situation, I choose making a difference. If I have enough to give that I don't have to make a choice, then grand. However, this is not usually the case.

Now in the specific example you've given - formula feeding - I wouldn't be able to decide superficially that someone "voluntarily chose". To be able to make a choice, one has to understand the different options. Of the formula-feeding moms I've seen who might qualify for charity, any I can remember were obviously quite socially- and educationally-disadvantaged. That's not usually fertile ground for choice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Would it make a difference in either case if the parents secondguessed their choice after the fact?

It might. See my above comment about scarcity of my charitable resources.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Would it make a difference if the prarents were given bad circing or BFing information and made their choice on faulty health care advice?

Yes. I give a lot more leeway to someone who has tried to do the right thing, or research her options, or whatever - versus the person who just "took it lying down" and made little/no effort to actively participate in her own life/partner's life/children's lives. We all make mistakes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Would it make a difference if the financial difficulty arose after the decision was made?

Yes, probably. In this case, the sister cited the family's "need" in soliciting the donation of the clothes. "Needing" donated kids clothing hot on the heels of paying $300 to put a child through a painful and mutilating cosmetic procedure is laughable. I'd say they "need" the second-hand clothes about as much as I "need" a spa weekend away from my kids! (Heck, I might even "need" that spa weekend more!







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
If you had no idea the parents made either choice, would you ask them directly before giving them the items and keep them if your requirements were not met?

No, I would not ask directly about circumcision or formula feeding as a criteria before passing baby items on to someone. To a point, I might try to follow a strategy of "attracting more bees with honey" in terms of their parenting choices that differ from my own. But in this case, I think the history of the original poster having exchanged information with the parents, and the parents showing casual disregard for a very serious violation of their son's body makes it not only "ok" but *compelling* for her to steer clear of them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
You would disown your sister and future nephews b/c they circumcised? Wow. I guess I will never understand this attitude.

As relationships evolve, you get those little clues about whether the bond is growing or fading. For me, an active/current pro-circ stance would be a big 'ol sledgehammer upside the head in terms of being a clue about the prospects for the relationship. A decision like that does not exist in insolation, in an otherwise shared view of parenting and humanity between that parent and me.

Last year, friends of ours (whom we are very close to, and who had previously not circ'd) were planning on circ'ing their new baby. This was the result of a crappy, botched "medically necessary" circ of their 5-year-old son. I will never understand the reasoning that in an effort to protect the baby, they were willing to _ensure_ he suffered the same pain. I'm pretty sure it would have destroyed the friendship.

My sister got breast implants when she was quite young. I'm not saying they're always a bad thing, but in her life at that time, the move made my husband and I really unhappy. She and I had had a struggling relationship over the years. We didn't abruptly disown her after it happened. But it was "the beginning of the end" in being a major sign that we just weren't on the same page at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Yeah, but there is a BIG difference between someone doing something you dont like, and someone doing something that you think should be illegal.











Original Poster: you done good!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
You have every right to give or not give away your clothing, but your _reasoning_ is petty. If they were asking for money to get the procedure done, that would be a completely appropriate response, but the circ and the clothing are too unrelated to try to connect them, IMO.

I'm sure others will disagree.

You're exactly right, I do disagree with you







. In my opinion, if the OP is to start giving that couple gifts and acting all "buddy-buddy" they might take that as a sign that everything is fine and the circ was no big deal. Nope, I agree with Raelynn, if they could scrape together a few hundred dollars to slice their baby, they can go to a secondhand store and buy some clothes.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
Cutting someone out of your life because they mutilate a child? Appropriate.
Using child mutilation as a reason to not give someone some onsies? Petty and passive agressive.

I don't think there's that big of a difference between your two examples.


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## needhelpplease (Sep 18, 2007)

I would be torn on this. But I would probably do the same. They need to decide what is important for their son. If they pick cruel unnecessary surgery instead of clothes, that's their business.

Then again, there's also the argument that it's the son who has suffered from the circumcision, and will also suffer if they can't afford clothes and the like.

But personally I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a favour to people like that (especially as you know you gave them information etc)


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhiannon Feimorgan* 
I don't think it's unrelated. If they chose to spend money on an unnesissary and harmful surgery rather than on kids clothes or whatever, that's not the op's fault. I feel strongly about circ as do many here and I do judge. I'm not afraid to say that.

Yep, I agree. They could have bought a lot of clothes for $300 and the fact they took that money to have their baby harmed instead makes me sick.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Raelynn, I do NOT think that your sister calling you "petty" was justified. You invested time, energy and emotion in this couple who totaly disregarded your "help" the first time around. I would feel exactly the same way as you do.


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## DklovesMkandJK (Jun 18, 2007)

I have to throw my hat in the ring here









I think you are not being petty at all. The clothes are yours to give to whomever you please for whatever reasons you please. Hand me downs, to me, are not charity but a gift. I personally would never gift something especially something I had emotional attachments to, to someone who I don't see favorably.

I have to agree with the poster (and forgive me I forget who you are, there are so many to read!) who made the comment about 'concequences' of circumcision. I personally feel that circumcision and the discussions of circumcison have become so 'pc' and people are so concerned with upsetting someone by discussing it that the whole issue becomes watered down. I feel that we are not allowed to show 'disapproval' or g-d forbid judgement over circumcision lest it offend someone or question an *ahem* belief.

Again, my very personal feeling is that circumcison is very wrong. I eqate it with child abuse, and have no problem saying so. As long as we keep saying that it's a parents decision to make, and that it's a choice at all, it remains both. As long as we tell our children that some parents choose to circumcise because XYZ, we continue the pattern that circumcision is a parenting decsion and not a breach of every child's basic human rights. If you are not saying it's wrong than you are (quietly) saying it's ok.

I think the whole thing with the OP boils down to whether you think it's ok to show your disapproval to those who circ.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

Not petty at all. Instead of worrying about paying someone to mutilate their son they should have been spending the money on some clothing for him.


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## aurora_skys (Apr 1, 2008)

i dont think its petty. circumcision is expensive and if they can pay for an elective surgery, they can go down to goodwill and get their child some clothes. i think i would have a hard time hearing about how "o we're so poor" from a family that circs their sons. its like when moms say "i dont have the money to feed my kids!" as they smoke cigarettes. i would feel more comfortable donating my things to an anonymous charity.


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## MommaLauraRN (May 14, 2007)

I understand the OP's feelings...to me it seems like donating clothing (which has monetary value) to people who paid to circ, would feel like I was _helping to pay_ for the circ. Of course we would never give someone actual money and say here, just wanted to help you out to pay to get your kid circ'd...but that's one way to look at it.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Money problems or not...I wouldn't give that couple a darn thing. Why would I give people I don't like gifts?


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I have to agree, if they can spend $300 on uneccesary surgery instead of clothes...pft. Thats like...spending money on getting your babies ears pierced instead of buying clothes or going to the movies instead of buying clothes or...I could go on. This is worse though imo. A lot worse.

I'm expecting my 4th in september. I got all of his 0-3 month clothes for under $100, new. If you add that up, they should be able to cloth their baby for a full year for that $300 they wasted on circing.

I'm not saying punish the child, but as I see it-if they can come up with $300 for circing, they can come up with $300 for a year of clothing. And this is coming from someone who is often very broke .


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## liliesandliars (Feb 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421* 
Money problems or not...I wouldn't give that couple a darn thing. Why would I give people I don't like gifts?

LOL. You know, when it comes down to it, I think it's about as simple as that. I don't know why anybody is trying to judge you for it. More likely than not, the people who said you were being petty would avoid giving gifts to someone they don't like, also. This is no different, and it's not like the boy is going to go clothesless for it. And to be sure, you have a good reason for not liking them. They knowingly mutilated their son.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

they live in canada with you right & no insurance covers it & is it correctly that circumcision around there in circ clinic cost around the 500 to 700 $ in canadian dollars which canada is more 'higher cost than usa' . I would 'agree if they could come up with at least 500$ for a unneccesary circumcision but begging for 'clothes' because they 'don't have the money.

I live only on a 1500 income -take taxi's, get wic,get some 'fast food & alot of toys for my boy btw I have no job and am a single mom . I'm for sure any charity 'shops' like our place has a thing where you can collect 6 pieces of clothing for free each time you come in & garage sales are pretty 'cheap' to get clothes for one dollar or to 2 dollars possibly some could be 5 $

I would choose to donate to 'someone at a 'charity who I believe who wouldn't be able to 'afford it' just like I rather not know 'someone is smoking & say they have no money for food or for clothes then when they get the 'money' they buy cigarettes instead of stuff for 'kids'


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
they live in canada with you right & no insurance covers it & is it correctly that circumcision around there in circ clinic cost around the 500 to 700 $ in canadian dollars which canada is more 'higher cost than usa' .

It varies from province to province, from region to region. I've read in Prince Edward Island it's only $50, but in Nova Scotia it's $300+. Here, it can vary from $150-450 depending on where you are getting it done. The hospital I had my children at does them, but they charge around $450 I believe - $150 for use of the "hospital space," $150 for the "tray fee" (use of the equipment) and $150 for the doctor to do it.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliesandliars* 
LOL. You know, when it comes down to it, I think it's about as simple as that. I don't know why anybody is trying to judge you for it. More likely than not, the people who said you were being petty would avoid giving gifts to someone they don't like, also. This is no different, and it's not like the boy is going to go clothesless for it. And to be sure, you have a good reason for not liking them. They knowingly mutilated their son.


SO YEAH TO THAT!







:


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Here's the thing, I think as it turns out from your later posts, no you weren't being petty. In the original post though, it read like you wanted to maintain a friendship but punish them by not giving them hand me downs. That I think would be petty. If it's a big enough deal to not give clothes over, it should be a big enough deal to cut off contact over; or maybe with relatives to severely limit contact. I understand OP that they were never really friends.

I wouldn't point it out or ponder over whether to give them clothes any time your sister brings them up in the future, though. I would just say "I don't agree with their principles and do not wish to associate with that family." Your sister is likely not to like your stance though. It's not the deal to her that it is to you, and not having children herself that's not that surprising. Just stick to your principles.


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