# 4 Yr Old Drowned a Chick (Accidentally)



## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

DS just played with one of our bantam chicks in his kiddie pool until it drowned.







HOW do I talk to him about this???

I explained how drowning feels, how she was scared, how her lungs filled up with water and she couldn't breathe. I said, "Doesn't that make you feel sad?" He says, "No, I don't feel sad."

It was honestly a mistake, he wasn't trying to kill it. But WHAT NOW? Especially since he doesn't seem to understand it was scary and painful for the chicken.

DH is outside, talking about drowning and DS is filling in the hold DH dug to bury the chick. DS would have dug the hole, but the ground is too hard.

ETA: **See my details and updates below.**


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't mean to sound heartless, but let it go. Or, just grieve with him over this terrible accident. Be sad WITH him. He did not do it on purpose, and even if he had, he would not have understood quite what he was doing.

Just last summer (and I am 36) I killed a chick by squashing under the water dish; it wasn't quite dead when I discovered it, so I carried it around inside my shirt, thinking maybe it was just cold. I felt SOOOO bad, and I could not admit to anyone this horrible thing I had done. I cried and cried, and I am, as I said, 36 years old.

Please, no more lectures or discussions of the horrors of drowning. He's too little. He probably feels as bad as his little 4 yo heart can feel. Callousness is a wall building tactic to bad feelings. Be sad with him, but no more lectures.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?

Yes, this.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

If it was truly and accident I'd let it go. I think it's important that you watch him more carefully in the future. 4 is too young to be given the responsibility of not hurting the baby chicks without your supervision. Take it as a learning experience for both of you.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
I don't mean to sound heartless, but let it go. Or, just grieve with him over this terrible accident. Be sad WITH him. He did not do it on purpose, and even if he had, he would not have understood quite what he was doing.

Just last summer (and I am 36) I killed a chick by squashing under the water dish; it wasn't quite dead when I discovered it, so I carried it around inside my shirt, thinking maybe it was just cold. I felt SOOOO bad, and I could not admit to anyone this horrible thing I had done. I cried and cried, and I am, as I said, 36 years old.

Please, no more lectures or discussions of the horrors of drowning. He's too little. He probably feels as bad as his little 4 yo heart can feel. Callousness is a wall building tactic to bad feelings. Be sad with him, but no more lectures.









: I'm sorry that the chick died, but please don't give him any more descriptions of what drowning is like, or try to make him feel badly about this. I don't think that at 4 years old, he needs to "understand" how scary/painful it was for the chick in teh way an adult could understand it - they're jsut not there yet at 4 years old. Developing sympathy/empathy is a process, and repeatedly addressing the chick's circumstance of death is likely not going to be helpful in helping him learn either. Chalk it up as a lesson that he is not able to handle playing with the chicks unsupervised. He's processing it in a way that's totally normal for a 4yo, and I wouldn't worry about him becoming an animal torturer/serial killer, or even indifferent to life.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?

Yeah, I'm leaning this way, too.

It was a tragic accident, and thank goodness it was not your son.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?

This is _exactly_ what I was going to say.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

When my DD, who is four, has done something wrong, she often tries to pretend that it hasn't happened at all or that she doesn't care. I think this is a defense mechanism against disappointment and horror. It sounds like you've been handing out plenty of disappointment and horror, in an attempt to get through. I'd argue that you've already gotten through perhaps too much.

He didn't mean to hurt the chick. In his brain and heart he might be completely devastated by what he has done, and your disappointment is more than he can take. Perhaps he CAN'T show remorse, because his wall of uncaring is all that is keeping him from completely disintegrating. After all, today he's killed a living thing, been made aware that this living thing was terrified and in agony before it died, and has been made aware that his parents must think he's pretty awful, as they keep pushing his face in this terrible thing he's done by mistake.

Please, please, don't pressure him any more to show he's sorry. This is the kind of memory that will stick with him and continue to haunt him as he grows up and deals with more death. Poor kid.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Yep.. drop the subject, and make sure he doesn't play with them anymore (in the pool).

He probably does feel bad, but won't say he does.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?

Ditto.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I don't know. I have gone through this with my own kids. They eventually learn compassion and learn about how their actions can hurt. and sometimes it takes awhile to learn that. My own 2 darlings killed some of my ducks once with absolutely NO remorse whatsoever!







:







But since have gained some compassion toward animals thankfully! I really think it's just a part of life and learning about life and death and cause and effect. Nothing more nothing less. Try not to read into it so much.


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## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

His kiddie pool is on the back deck. The back door was open. We were on the other side of the door. He wouldn't drown in that, I'm confident, so I don't need lectures on that. I do agree, however, that he is being given a little too much freedom, obviously, since he can't make the right decisions on things like that. We live on a farm. He's not always in sight or directly with us. We have plenty of rules regarding checking in, answering when called, etc. I'm happy with that set up. I just need to know how others handle the death issue.

mama mojo, thanks for the kind words. I'm very sorry you had that happen to you. I understand the pain. It sucks, no doubt. I agree that it probably should just be let go.

It freaks me out that he isn't sad about it. But, I am trying to remind myself that when my MIL died, whom DS adored, he said he wasn't sad about that either. So, I think that's just how he expresses himself at this point.

...making dinner....distracted post. sorry if it's not a complete thought...

ETA: Sorry. Only mama mojo and North of 60 had written when I started to reply (amidst cooking dinner.) So many more replies! Thanks for the important reminder about his general level of understanding. This kid is sooo advanced on so many levels, it's a very hard thing for me to remember. And, about the pool...yeah, I wasn't clear in my first post, so I understand your concern. But it's really in a safe place. And, the chicks were headed to the barn tonight anyway, as they're getting big enough and the temps are finally up today.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Hugs Mama. That must have been rough and I know it seems like your DS may not care, but like a pp said, it is most likely a defense mechanism so that he doesn't have to think about what he's done. (I don't mean this to sound accusatory, as I don't think he quite understands the consequences of his actions.) Yes, he was probably too young to be left unsupervised with the chicks...I'd chalk it up as a lesson for the both of you. Regardless of what your DS has said to you, I'm pretty sure he will remember this incident and hopefully use his new found knowledge not to play with the chicks in the water. And you know better than to leave him alone around water and the chicks from now on.

I had to have my wonderful old kitty put to sleep two months ago. He was the light of DD1's life (she's 4yo too). She lived for this cat. I waited until she got home from preschool to tell her what we had to do (he had cancer) and I was crying very hard. She could've cared less about the cat. All she cared about was me crying and being sad. She wanted me to stop. I think my being so upset was very distressing to her. Even now, when we talk about the cat, she never says she misses him or anything, but only asks me if I'm still sad about him and when will I stop be sad. I think it's scary for children to see emotions in their parents that they haven't quite learned how to express themselves. I feel like I'm rambling, but I hope you get the point.

One last thing... As for the being in the pool without you there, I'm ok with that. You know your son and his limits. I wouldn't hesitate to leave my 4 yo in a real pool, if I was working inside and could check on her every few minutes. In fact, I did that often last week on vacation. She is an amazingly strong swimmer. So I don't fault you on that at all!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Past_VNE* 
I do agree, however, that he is being given a little too much freedom, obviously, since he can't make the right decisions on things like that.

I think it's completely ridiculous that he was even given the opportunity to attempt making such decisions. A 4 year old alone with a kiddy pool and a fragile baby animal? Uh, not the kid's fault here. He's 4.


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## ahimsa_in_action (Mar 15, 2009)

It's so easy to feel like one's child should be able to feel remorse over killing another living creature, but he probably hasn't had enough life experience yet to fully understand what it was like for the chick. I've heard that it can take awhile for a child to learn empathy and compassion, especially boys (maybe that's just because of how they're typically raised...). I feel that some of the other comments made were a bit harsh...it didn't sound to me like you were guilt-tripping him, more like trying to help him understand. There's a big difference between the two, in my opinion. I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that his lack of understanding or compassion towards the animal was a sign of putting up a wall...I see it more as simply innocence...he just doesn't get it yet. Maybe make a point of helping him understand how other people and animals are feeling when the urge strikes you. My son is a little over 2 years old, and for the last year or so I explain to him when the situation arises how someone else is feeling. Like if he's running across our garden, not noticing how he's crushing some of the plants under his feet, I'll say, "Please be careful where you step...that hurts the plants, they have feelings, too..." or something along those lines. I make sure I say it in a compassionate tone so the message is given as clearly as possible. Oftentimes now he'll try to be careful when he's walking in that area, which may or may not be a sign of compassion...but at least it's putting the idea/feeling in his head, which is a step in the right direction, imo


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## potatocraft (Apr 4, 2008)

Ummm....Even if you child is good around water, you need watch him. Children can drown in an inch of water. What if he is running around the kiddy pool trips falls in and bumps his head. Then he is face first unconcious in water.
As for the chick, I'm sorry that happened. And even if he doesn't show it, he will be too. He will remember later, and know better.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I think you did fine. You explained that we don't hurt animals and why. He may not get it yet, but he will.

As for the kiddie pool on the back porch. He's 4 and it's a kiddie pool. Absolutely no big deal, except for that somehow he got a hold of the chick.

My 3yo made a baby chick um, fly, once. It wasn't pretty


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *potatocraft* 
Ummm....Even if you child is good around water, you need watch him. Children can drown in an inch of water. What if he is running around the kiddy pool trips falls in and bumps his head. Then he is face first unconcious in water.
As for the chick, I'm sorry that happened. And even if he doesn't show it, he will be too. He will remember later, and know better.

She stated she was on the other side of an open door, she would have heard this.

I wanted to add, I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching a child that hurting an animal is NOT ok. Accident or not, I would just address that he cannot do this.

((HUGS)) mama.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ahimsa_in_action* 
It's so easy to feel like one's child should be able to feel remorse over killing another living creature, but he probably hasn't had enough life experience yet to fully understand what it was like for the chick. I've heard that it can take awhile for a child to learn empathy and compassion, especially boys (maybe that's just because of how they're typically raised...). I feel that some of the other comments made were a bit harsh...it didn't sound to me like you were guilt-tripping him, more like trying to help him understand. There's a big difference between the two, in my opinion. I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that his lack of understanding or compassion towards the animal was a sign of putting up a wall...I see it more as simply innocence...he just doesn't get it yet. Maybe make a point of helping him understand how other people and animals are feeling when the urge strikes you. My son is a little over 2 years old, and for the last year or so I explain to him when the situation arises how someone else is feeling. Like if he's running across our garden, not noticing how he's crushing some of the plants under his feet, I'll say, "Please be careful where you step...that hurts the plants, they have feelings, too..." or something along those lines. I make sure I say it in a compassionate tone so the message is given as clearly as possible. Oftentimes now he'll try to be careful when he's walking in that area, which may or may not be a sign of compassion...but at least it's putting the idea/feeling in his head, which is a step in the right direction, imo


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaturalMindedMomma* 
I wanted to add, I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching a child that hurting an animal is NOT ok. Accident or not, I would just address that he cannot do this.

I don't think any of us here are tryingot say she should let him think it's OK to do, some of us are just taking exception to a detailed description of the chick's fear and pain before being drowned, and what drowning feels like. *I* don't want to think about that, and I"m an adult, and I didn't do it. I can't imagine how traumatizing having that conversation *more than once* could potentially be to a 4-yo, especially when said 4 yo caused the chick's death (even though it was accidental).

I think an *age appropriate* discussion about being careful with animals is ABSOLUTELY warranted...but that IMO does not include a graphic description of the chick's final moments on earth.

Also, I'd gently agree that no matter how advanced/mature he may be, this wasn't about a right or wrong decision made by him, it was about an accident that happened at the hands of a small child. I would hate for him to be saddled with the responsibility for this when really he's still so little and the decision to allow him to play with a chick unsupervised was not his.

I'm not trying to be harsh with you, I promise, OP. I just am trying to get you to reframe things a little maybe. 4 years old, no matter how precocious, is still 4 years old.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Have you considered apologizing to him for letting this happen? It sounds like you agree that it wasn't really his fault, and that you should have been more closely supervising the situation. Something like "DS, I'm really sorry about what happened with the chicky. I should have been there to help you play with it and keep it safe. "; it could help him address the situation emotionally without having to feel overwhelmed by blame.

Edited to add: And if he's really just *not* sad about it, seeing _you_ be sad about it and sad about your role in it models the empathy/responsibility you want him to develop. So either way, I think it could be helpful.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
Have you considered apologizing to him for letting this happen? It sounds like you agree that it wasn't really his fault, and that you should have been more closely supervising the situation. Something like "DS, I'm really sorry about what happened with the chicky. I should have been there to help you play with it and keep it safe. "; it could help him address the situation emotionally without having to feel overwhelmed by blame.

Edited to add: And if he's really just *not* sad about it, seeing _you_ be sad about it and sad about your role in it models the empathy/responsibility you want him to develop. So either way, I think it could be helpful.

I think this is the most helpful reply. I am sure he does feel bad about it, and probably discussing it like you did was too much. I get that you were disturbed about the insensitivity of your boy, I may have had the same reaction! But this is a great way to deal with it, an apology and accepting his feelings.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

oh no, i see you already let him know what happened, i would have said don't tell him, let it go, and don't let it happen again. your response to him, that was way graphic and TMI for him, imo. you can't *make* someone feel empathy. you model it, and eventually, hopefully, they get it. im sure that inside, he does feel sad. you don't have to make him actually be upset into tears though, to know that. i agree with pp who sugg. you apologize to him for not supervising enough. because really, at 4, he was too little be alone with a baby chick and water. and kids that little don't have the most solid grasp (if any) on death. that wasnt his fault. i hope you take some of that off of him.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

to both of you.

From your sig, it looks like your ds is your first/only, and you mention he is advanced in areas. My oldest was very articulate at a young age, and between that and my lack of experience with kids, I had pretty unrealistic expectations of his understanding. I expected him to get things and held him responsible for things that I wouldn't dream of with my younger ones. I guess I want to agree with the other posters that it was just an accident & your reaction was too much, but I can definitely relate to how you feel.

Also, my 4 yo dd is totally into the "pretending it didn't happen or she doesn't care" thing when something goes wrong. She really, _really_ wishes I would just shrug it off or forget about it, so that's what she does. And she has little to no concept of death, extreme pain, etc. Her older brothers have warned her against running into the street, telling her if a car hit her, she would die. But she can't fathom what that means. She seems to think it means "go away for a while." She was mad at me recently for not letting her have more juice, and she told me she wished I would die. But she was sure I would still be here to look after here if I were dead.


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## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

A lot of you have been REALLY helpful. Like I said, I sometimes need a reminder that he's four. He sometimes seems so much older.

I made a very poor choice of words when I said in my last post, "...he is being given a little too much freedom, obviously, since he can't make the right decisions on things like that. ..." What I was trying to say is not that he can't make good decisions about that. It's that he shouldn't be making the decisions, period. Gah...I've rewritten that last sentence ten times. I can't get out what I want to say. I mean, he wasn't making any decision...he was just playing with a chick.

Anyway, with a load of chicks peeping and squawking day and night and a kid who throws toys in and out of his pool randomly all day long, the sounds I heard were nothing out of the ordinary. I didn't suspect a thing, and I was no more than eight feet away.

Poor kid. He came in with a dead, dripping chick. He says, matter of factly, but with a little confusion, "Hey Daddy, a chick died." He didn't understand why it died. He kept saying, "but it was swimming, it had its head up."

When we discussed the drowning thing, it was factual, but quick. And the tone/words were very carefully chosen, as gentle as possible. That's hard to convey here, but I promise it wasn't as graphic as it sounds in my first post. DH talked with him about drowning in a very "lesson learning" way, as in "this is why it's very important to be careful around water. Any person or animal can drown."

We dropped it and had a nice supper and bedtime routine.

And, too late now...







but I should have said I was looking for advice on how to talk about it...not specifically discipline, because he didn't need disciplined.

prothyria, thank you. I will do just what you said in the morning. I wouldn't have thought of that, but I believe it's an excellent suggestion.

Erin, there was no way not to tell him...he is the one that showed us the dead chick and asked why it was dead. (which is also how/why we came to the description of drowning. He was asking me, "but how did it die, when it was just swimming.")

Someone here once shared a story of how she, as a child, played with a chick or chicken until it drowned.....I wish I could find that thread. I'd love to PM her and ask how it all turned out.

Again, thank you mamas. You've been a big help.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I just have to say I think you're pretty awesome for handling the feedback the way you did.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I know this is probably a closed case now, but my dd killed a chick when she was 4. It was her absolute favorite and she always carefully took it for rides in her bike basket. Well, this time she was showing her friend and got a little excited and dropped it on the concrete, and the dog snatched it. I'm not sure whether the dog killed it or the fall, but she was not particularly remorseful, either. She was mad at the dog, and upset because she couldn't show her friend the trick, but that's all.

Now that she's six, it's hard for me to imagine that she was so "heartless" or unaffected by it because she's so NOT like that now. But my almost four year old is. He catches stink bugs and kills them w/out even realizing that they are a living thing.

Anyway, I guess my point is to NOT be upset that he wasn't upset, or worry that he's a psychopath (like I did in my dd's incident), because he'll no doubt grow out of it!


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

i got it. im sorry







i didnt realize he knew the chick was dead like that. poor little dude. im sorry if i came off harshly, too. it's so hard to convey tone online-some people are expert at it, but i am not so much. i know exactly what you mean about needing a heads up that your fella is just a little fella-a quick story: my dd is very precocious, too, and i remember the first time i really spoke to her on the telephone-i had left her with my mom for a bit while i went out w/ dh for dinner..i think she was 3.5 or 4...i was STUNNED. like, speechless stunned. at how ITTY BITTY her voice sounded on the phone! totally articulate, as usual, and very animated, but so LITTLE!! she totally didnt sound that way to me in 3d!! even now, at 6, she sounds so small on the phone.

i use that phone voice thing as my reminder to myself, that as brilliant as she is, she's still just a little kid. i have often thought that if i could just talk to her on the phone when i was feeling angry with her, i'd be a nicer mama than i am.
anyway...hugs, mama







im glad you got some helpful feedback.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoablessing* 

One last thing... As for the being in the pool without you there, I'm ok with that. You know your son and his limits. I wouldn't hesitate to leave my 4 yo in a real pool, if I was working inside and could check on her every few minutes. In fact, I did that often last week on vacation. She is an amazingly strong swimmer. So I don't fault you on that at all!

Wow. I'm rather hands-off and I didn't leave my kids in a real pool without constant supervision before they were ~10. Stuff happens.

In Scouts, the kids were never to be around water w/o a buddy. And we're talking a heck of a lot older than 4. This is seriously an accident waiting to happen.


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## PerkyKP (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I just have to say I think you're pretty awesome for handling the feedback the way you did.

I totally agree.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
Have you considered apologizing to him for letting this happen? It sounds like you agree that it wasn't really his fault, and that you should have been more closely supervising the situation. Something like "DS, I'm really sorry about what happened with the chicky. I should have been there to help you play with it and keep it safe. "; it could help him address the situation emotionally without having to feel overwhelmed by blame.

Edited to add: And if he's really just *not* sad about it, seeing _you_ be sad about it and sad about your role in it models the empathy/responsibility you want him to develop. So either way, I think it could be helpful.

This is what I was going got say. I have apologized to my kids before when they've broken something and then been upset about it - I have told them that I should have been more careful about putting it away or showing them how to handle it.

And I too have had my younger son act very nonchalant about an incident, but then remember it with sadness. I do think it is a defense mechanism for him, a way to handle all the various feeling he has that he either can't express or can't deal with.

We just finished raising 3 baby chicks (they're going in the coop at the end of this week), and my 4.5yo would sometimes get too rough with them. He adores them and wouldn't want to hurt them, but I felt like sometimes he was trying to figure out what would hurt them and what wouldn't, and I had to really be on him about it. My older son was never like this. Even as a young toddler he erred on the side of caution, and would show a lot of regret and emotion over having hurt someone or something. Everyone has their own way of handling and expressing emotion.


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## Twwly (Jan 30, 2007)

Where there's livestock there's deadstock! Accidental or otherwise, things die. It's part of the process and it is ALSO okay not to feel bad about it.

I personally wouldn't detail it for the child, or apologize. It's done, he knows what the situation was, if he has questions about it, I'm sure he'll ask and you'll answer. Sounds like you've done just fine to me.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I just have to say I think you're pretty awesome for handling the feedback the way you did.

ita. i think your doing a pretty good job of handling this. live and learn, right.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

you have to be kidding me.. _YOU_ are apologizing to them when they break something? Why? What is that teaching them? That is was your fault they broke something?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
This is what I was going got say. I have apologized to my kids before when they've broken something and then been upset about it - I have told them that I should have been more careful about putting it away or showing them how to handle it.

And I too have had my younger son act very nonchalant about an incident, but then remember it with sadness. I do think it is a defense mechanism for him, a way to handle all the various feeling he has that he either can't express or can't deal with.

We just finished raising 3 baby chicks (they're going in the coop at the end of this week), and my 4.5yo would sometimes get too rough with them. He adores them and wouldn't want to hurt them, but I felt like sometimes he was trying to figure out what would hurt them and what wouldn't, and I had to really be on him about it. My older son was never like this. Even as a young toddler he erred on the side of caution, and would show a lot of regret and emotion over having hurt someone or something. Everyone has their own way of handling and expressing emotion.


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## Climbergirl (Nov 12, 2007)

My sister accidently drowned a baby duck when she was 3-4 (not sure of the age). She doesn't remember the incident. It is really ironic because I thought she would be a vet one day because she loves animals so much. She would collect a whole bunch if her husband would let her.

Sounds really familiar (duck, kiddie pool) except she went to get someone to make the duck wake up and they realized it was dead and she said she was teaching it to swim (we were taking swimming lessons so everything was learning to swim at that point).

I think he will be ok.


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

from me to you. call if you want to chat. I'm up.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
you have to be kidding me.. _YOU_ are apologizing to them when they break something? Why? What is that teaching them? That is was your fault they broke something?









If nothing else, it shows a bit of humility. When kids make age appropriate mistakes because of a lack of parental supervision, what do YOU think the appropriate course of action is? To let the kid grow up thinking he did something wrong when it could have been prevented?


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

4 y/o+baby chick+kiddie pool=BAD

Toddlers and preschoolers just don't understand what can and may happen to small animals-that is just reality. Let it go.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
If nothing else, it shows a bit of humility. When kids make age appropriate mistakes because of a lack of parental supervision, what do YOU think the appropriate course of action is? To let the kid grow up thinking he did something wrong when it could have been prevented?

I think the appropriate thing is to recognize what happened and move on,. There's no need for blame. Everyone makes mistakes, yk? and accidents happen too. They don't have to be blameful events. I sure think humility can be taught without apologizing to my kid for an accident that I may have prevented. Geesh I'd be apologizing all the time if we lived like that, I don't know. I guess I just don't get it and I have apologized to my kids before just not when they have broken something,etc..that is just odd to me. I just don't see what is healthy about teaching blaming in order to teach humility or responsibility. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. But thanks for the food for thought.


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## Channelle (May 14, 2008)

I know that this subject is a little old, but I wanted to say something. When I was 4, I went to a neighbor girl's house, and to make an unpleasant story short, we tried to bathe a bunch of tiny kittens, and ending up drowning them (there was like 4 of them). I had never had a pet to that point, or ever really been around animals so I didn't know. But to this day, I still feel really sad and very guilty over this. I have cried on more that one occasion imagining what those tiny baby kittens suffered through on their last seconds on earth. My family really made me feel horrible, I got punished, yelled at, spanked. My mom remembers that I showed no lack of empathy, but I sure felt it. I remember feeling like the crummiest person on earth and just wanted to die like the kitties.

But...I can't help but wonder how one would let a little 4 year old (I was tiny) walk a block away to a neighbor's house (we lived in a busy city, where I would have had to cross a very busy intersection to get to her house), and then not even give any supervision at all while two little girls drowned some kittens. Not to mention the fact, that I had no concept of death, drowning, kindness to animals, or animal car in general. Maybe I would be able to handle it better now (and growing up) if someone had apologized to me. (For lack of supervision, for lack of knowledge, something).

The point I made was, even if he showed no sorrow or empathy, I bet it hurt him pretty bad on the inside. I hope you tread lightly, it's so easy to crush a kid's spirit (it sounds like you are though, I'm sure his experience living with this guilt will be much better than mine, it sounds like he has much more caring and sensitive parents!)


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I think it was developmentally inappropriate for a child this age to play with a chick in the water like that. I especially think it was wrong for it to be unsupervised. Children older than him die in water, and the pet managed to die without you knowing.

I think it is too graphic and too much detail to tell him how it feels to drown. That would traumatize a child. He is only 4. I don't want my 4 yr old to know how many ways to die, how it feels to die, details of any way of dying. He knows not to go in front of cars, out in the roads, because the cars could run him over and it would really hurt. Children at 4 often do not really understand what death is. See what I am saying?


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I don't think any of us here are tryingot say she should let him think it's OK to do, some of us are just taking exception to a detailed description of the chick's fear and pain before being drowned, and what drowning feels like. *I* don't want to think about that, and I"m an adult, and I didn't do it. I can't imagine how traumatizing having that conversation *more than once* could potentially be to a 4-yo, especially when said 4 yo caused the chick's death (even though it was accidental).

I think an *age appropriate* discussion about being careful with animals is ABSOLUTELY warranted...but that IMO does not include a graphic description of the chick's final moments on earth.

Also, I'd gently agree that no matter how advanced/mature he may be, this wasn't about a right or wrong decision made by him, it was about an accident that happened at the hands of a small child. I would hate for him to be saddled with the responsibility for this when really he's still so little and the decision to allow him to play with a chick unsupervised was not his.

I'm not trying to be harsh with you, I promise, OP. I just am trying to get you to reframe things a little maybe. 4 years old, no matter how precocious, is still 4 years old.

I agree that this was not about the 4 yr olds decision to do this. It was the adults who let him do it, knew he was doing it and let it continue, that made the wrong decision, not the 4 yr old. I am trying to say this as kind as possible, but I feel the adults in charge are at fault here, big time. He is 4 yrs old. He needs adults to make decisions and teach him what he can and cannot do and so on. To let him do whatever he is going to do and then emotionally punish him by trying to instill a deep level of guilt in him....not good. Plus, what happens once he grasps what he did? Then he internalizes it and sees himself as a killer? What kind of behaviors will he have then? This is a perfect example of why children need limits and parents to watch over them and care for them and show them their way and so on.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Past_VNE* 
His kiddie pool is on the back deck. The back door was open. We were on the other side of the door. He wouldn't drown in that, I'm confident, so I don't need lectures on that. I do agree, however, that he is being given a little too much freedom, obviously, since he can't make the right decisions on things like that. We live on a farm. He's not always in sight or directly with us. We have plenty of rules regarding checking in, answering when called, etc. I'm happy with that set up. I just need to know how others handle the death issue.

mama mojo, thanks for the kind words. I'm very sorry you had that happen to you. I understand the pain. It sucks, no doubt. I agree that it probably should just be let go.

It freaks me out that he isn't sad about it. But, I am trying to remind myself that when my MIL died, whom DS adored, he said he wasn't sad about that either. So, I think that's just how he expresses himself at this point.

...making dinner....distracted post. sorry if it's not a complete thought...

ETA: Sorry. Only mama mojo and North of 60 had written when I started to reply (amidst cooking dinner.) So many more replies! Thanks for the important reminder about his general level of understanding. This kid is sooo advanced on so many levels, it's a very hard thing for me to remember. And, about the pool...yeah, I wasn't clear in my first post, so I understand your concern. But it's really in a safe place. And, the chicks were headed to the barn tonight anyway, as they're getting big enough and the temps are finally up today.

Children do die in water that shallow. Children his age die in bathtubs. I don't know of tons of drownings, but I do know of children dying in bathtubs, which mean not deep. It takes one little slip. He was watched so loosely that no one saw him putting the chick under the water. Therefore, he was watched loosely enough that he could have gone under too. Supervising from the otherside of the door is not acceptable. This is exactly why I do not let others supervise my children in water activities like pools and baths. Too many people think listening from the next room, being in the vicinity, and so on, is ok. It is not ok. It is the story 99% of the time a child drowns.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
Children do die in water that shallow. Children his age die in bathtubs. I don't know of tons of drownings, but I do know of children dying in bathtubs, which mean not deep. It takes one little slip. He was watched so loosely that no one saw him putting the chick under the water. Therefore, he was watched loosely enough that he could have gone under too. Supervising from the otherside of the door is not acceptable.

If he had gone underwater, or slipped and knocked himself out and fallen into the water, or whatever, he wouldn't still be chattering and giggling and such. If you can hear the kid (and hear when s/he *isn't* making noise), then I think you are supervising well enough to prevent drowning.

Now, I wouldn't leave more than one young child in the water without direct visual supervision because there's no good way to tell the difference between one toddler making noise and two toddlers making noise, but that's different.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
I think the appropriate thing is to recognize what happened and move on,. There's no need for blame. Everyone makes mistakes, yk? and accidents happen too. They don't have to be blameful events. I sure think humility can be taught without apologizing to my kid for an accident that I may have prevented. Geesh I'd be apologizing all the time if we lived like that

HE'S FOUR. And this wasn't "something", it was an animal. He killed it. Let's be real here. He didn't break a picture frame, or drop the milk. He killed an animal because he wasn't being watched. No 4 year old should have access to baby animals by themselves, so we're either missing part of the story, or the parents were willfully neglectful.

She's worried he's not sad enough. Well, quite frankly, how does she expect him to react? If the care of animals is lax enough in their household that 4 year olds can play in pools alone with BABY animals, then how'd she expect a kid to react when one accidentally dies? The precedence for the care of animals has to be set early on, otherwise, why _should_ he care?

From the sounds of it, I'm not surprised he doesn't care. Apparently 4 year olds playing with tiny baby chickens is A-Ok. He has no concept that this shouldn't have happened. Before he understands remorse over something, he has to understand why his actions shouldn't have happened in the first place. You know.. right from wrong. If she wants him to understand that, she has to demonstrate it. Apparently, from her own descriptions ("being happy with his level of supervision") that's not going to happen. So yeah, I think apologizing for letting this happen and SHOWING the kid herself that SHE'S sorry about the chicken dieing, and admitting HER role in might help him understand a little better.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

I agree that baby animals and small children together usually doesn't end well and the situation could have been avoided. However, I am going to disagree that a 4 year old is likely to die in an inch of water. Baby? Yes. Toddler? Sure. A swimming 4 year old? Not likely. Now this isn't to say that swimming children should be unsupervised, but what I gather this was not a pool (baby pool). I let my almost 4 year old bathe himself in the tub with the door open. Sure, he could bump his head and drown as could I, as could anyone. I think we are being a bit harsh on her not hovering over her child enough. I think she also realizes that he shouldn't have access to the chicks. She made the mistake of her mature 4 year old seeming more mature than he was and berating her seems wrong (as was berating her child for the death).


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I'm so sorry your son had to go through that. Sounds like you explained as well as you could.

Re: those who are saying he "killed" the chick, for heaven's sakes, have you got any chicks? You don't have to work really hard to help a baby chicken die. You just put it in the water and unlike a cat or dog, it can't get out. Even a MEDIUM sized chick. They are so fragile and stupid.

Lesson learned, chicks stay away from pool, preschooler stays further from chicks, and now knows they cannot swim.

My only advice to the OP would be that now might be a good time to throw out the concept of chicks not being able to fly, either, even if you drop them from somewhere high up to "help" them.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

children on farms tend to have access to baby animals from a young age. it's called LEARNING!!! I am not about to apologize to my own 3 yo when she snapped our ducks neck. It was an ACCIDENT!!! She didn't feel bad because she didn't know she was killing it!!!! Me apologizing to her wasn't going to help the situaion in any way and that surely isn't going to TEACH her anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
HE'S FOUR. And this wasn't "something", it was an animal. He killed it. Let's be real here. He didn't break a picture frame, or drop the milk. He killed an animal because he wasn't being watched. No 4 year old should have access to baby animals by themselves, so we're either missing part of the story, or the parents were willfully neglectful.

She's worried he's not sad enough. Well, quite frankly, how does she expect him to react? If the care of animals is lax enough in their household that 4 year olds can play in pools alone with BABY animals, then how'd she expect a kid to react when one accidentally dies? The precedence for the care of animals has to be set early on, otherwise, why _should_ he care?

From the sounds of it, I'm not surprised he doesn't care. Apparently 4 year olds playing with tiny baby chickens is A-Ok. He has no concept that this shouldn't have happened. Before he understands remorse over something, he has to understand why his actions shouldn't have happened in the first place. You know.. right from wrong. If she wants him to understand that, she has to demonstrate it. Apparently, from her own descriptions ("being happy with his level of supervision") that's not going to happen. So yeah, I think apologizing for letting this happen and SHOWING the kid herself that SHE'S sorry about the chicken dieing, and admitting HER role in might help him understand a little better.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
children on farms tend to have access to baby animals from a young age. it's called LEARNING!!! I am not about to apologize to my own 3 yo when she snapped our ducks neck. It was an ACCIDENT!!! She didn't feel bad because she didn't know she was killing it!!!! Me apologizing to her wasn't going to help the situaion in any way and that surely isn't going to TEACH her anything.

You can handle things however you want, and truth be told, if something like that happened in our household, I'd probably react the same way - she's three, it was an accident, non issue, move on.

HOWEVER... that's not the case here. She handled it in a way that was, in my opinion, way out of the 4 year old's grasp of the situation, then said she's freaked out he's not remorseful enough. If the OP wants her son to BE remorseful over something that I don't think a 4 year old is really going to be remorseful over, because as we both agree, he's FOUR, it was an accident... then apologizing to him for not helping him with the chick which shows him it's not his "fault" and SHOWING empathy about the situation might help.

In _this_ situation, after the things the OP has _already said_, apologizing might help. Might not either. But what does it hurt? The suggestion to apologize was in response to her son not being sad and remorseful enough. Many have said to let it go, he's four, he probably doesn't get it. But that's just ONE suggestion, which, I don't think is all that bad considering it wasn't his "fault". You seem to think this means all parents should apologize to their kids when their kids break something, which is silly.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'd like to thank the OP for her honesty in posting what happened--many parents struggle to know how to react in the moments after a small child accidentally kills a small animal. It can be very emotional and upsetting and parents often feel unprepared for how best to respond. Thank you also to those who have thoughtfully explored the diverse issues at the heart of this thread.

I'd like to remind everyone to be aware of the following when posting:

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I don't think any of us here are tryingot say she should let him think it's OK to do, some of us are just taking exception to a detailed description of the chick's fear and pain before being drowned, and what drowning feels like. *I* don't want to think about that, and I"m an adult, and I didn't do it. I can't imagine how traumatizing having that conversation *more than once* could potentially be to a 4-yo, especially when said 4 yo caused the chick's death (even though it was accidental).

*I think an *age appropriate* discussion about being careful with animals is ABSOLUTELY warranted...but that IMO does not include a graphic description of the chick's final moments on earth.*

Also, I'd gently agree that no matter how advanced/mature he may be, this wasn't about a right or wrong decision made by him, it was about an accident that happened at the hands of a small child. I would hate for him to be saddled with the responsibility for this when really he's still so little and the decision to allow him to play with a chick unsupervised was not his.

I'm not trying to be harsh with you, I promise, OP. I just am trying to get you to reframe things a little maybe. 4 years old, no matter how precocious, is still 4 years old.

This was my point exactly! I'm sorry if by capitalizing I made it seem as though I was disagreeing with the extent she described the pain thing to him, i wasn't. I tend to bold and capitalize my points! HAHA Can you tell I got most Dramatic in my yearbook!


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the4ofus* 
i just have to say i think you're pretty awesome for handling the feedback the way you did.

ita!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

He's four. He may not even remember this as he grows up. Try to let go.

My family did the baby chick and baby duck thing for easter some years. My little brother squoze a couple of those little fellows too hard. We big sisters remember but my brother doesn't.


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## Mama_2_Boy (Jun 18, 2007)

..I just wanted to add that...thank GOD a 4 year old child doesn't feel the remorse we do over the accidental death of an animal. I know how I would feel if I accidentally killed an animal...I would hate for my child to be having that weight on their shoulder...just my 2 cents.


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

I would like to add that you have handled the responses pretty well. I think you handled it just fine. I think you were a little graphic on the chick dying though. He's only four. Unless he had intentionally held the chick underwater to "see what would happen" (in which case a brief description of how drowning stuff sucks would be appropriate) or seemed to garner some sort of enjoyment out of seeing the chick die, I wouldn't be to upset that he said he wasn't sad. He may have been sad, but death and dying is kind of a foreign concept at that age. I wouldn't take that to mean he's a budding serial killer/animal torturer. At the time you were probably horrified by his seeming lack of empathy. It's a big responsibility to expect a four year old to be responsible for keeping a helpless, fragile baby animal alive. He may understand enough to protect the chick from obvious dangers (i.e don't put it in the middle of the road, in front of the dog ect...) but death by drowning may not be something he "gets" yet. Especially since it seems many animals can swim just fine. Even baby ones.

My daughter is 2.5 (almost 3) and she is just now getting the concept of "hurting people", but that's only if we make exaggerated "sad faces". She will then say "sorry" and go back to doing the same thing 2 seconds later. Hurting animals? Forget it. I just supervise her very carefully and constantly remind her that we don't hit animals.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

This is really a long term lesson. Most 4 yr olds cannot fully understand death. Many do not really understand it with animals (and frankly, our relationship to farm animals is hard to explain sometimes to kids, esp. when some are used for meat).

If you feel you can, maybe try a funeral or a memorial. At a ceremony, you might talk about death and it gives the child a chance to process and ask questions. We have had a bunch of fish funerals (all natural causes







) and it gives us an opportunity to discuss death and the mechanisms we deal with it (and, ds has never really been sad about the fish- its kind of "practice" and education on how we would/will support each other in grief. We teach him our rituals and prayers and how we remember. He did have a lot of questions about death).

You might provide him with the chance to learn and "make a cosmic ammends" with him "adopting" another chick and caring for it with your involved guidance. He can get to know the chick, learn about care, and come to see it as a living creature that depends on him (see ds! he likes that! Uh,oh... he flaps his wings because he is afraid...). By caring for it, learning caring from you, you showing how to connect, he'll learn about animals as feeling creatures.

It was an accident. It is an opportunity to talk about responsibility with animals as well as a chance to lead him through your rituals of death and learn how to care for chicks and come to see them as feeling through your positive guidance... All this can be done without guilt and can be very important and powerful life lessons.


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## Past_VNE (Dec 13, 2003)

I don't have time to respond to everyone, though I would REALLY like to. Thanks to sooo many of you for your time and kind words.

We have over 100 chicks here. They're not sweet little easter impulse buys or a pet. They're part of our livelihood. I had 4 Bantam chicks in the house because they were getting picked on by the other birds. DS is involved with EVERY part of farm life, from helping in the garden, to IVing the sick cow to watching the tractor bury her when she didn't make it. So he's well aware of how to care for the animals, holds them correctly, collects eggs carefully, and so much else. He just didn't get the chickens can't swim. Anyway, lesson learned. We have talked about it gently a few times at his request and it seems to be totally okay in his mind.

Gah...I wish I could say more. But I have animals to tend.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mama_mojo*


I don't mean to sound heartless, but let it go. Or, just grieve with him over this terrible accident. Be sad WITH him. He did not do it on purpose, and even if he had, he would not have understood quite what he was doing.

Just last summer (and I am 36) I killed a chick by squashing under the water dish; it wasn't quite dead when I discovered it, so I carried it around inside my shirt, thinking maybe it was just cold. I felt SOOOO bad, and I could not admit to anyone this horrible thing I had done. I cried and cried, and I am, as I said, 36 years old.

Please, no more lectures or discussions of the horrors of drowning. He's too little. He probably feels as bad as his little 4 yo heart can feel. Callousness is a wall building tactic to bad feelings. Be sad with him, but no more lectures.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *North_Of_60*


I would leave the kid alone, and instead reflect upon the fact that your child was unsupervised with a baby animal near a body of water and had the opportunity to do this in the first place. He's 4. Where was the supervising parent/guardian in charge, and why did they allow this to happen? Better yet, if he had the opportunity to drown an animal, what about HIS safety?



Quote:



Originally Posted by *junipermuse*


If it was truly and accident I'd let it go. I think it's important that you watch him more carefully in the future. 4 is too young to be given the responsibility of not hurting the baby chicks without your supervision. Take it as a learning experience for both of you.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*









: I'm sorry that the chick died, but please don't give him any more descriptions of what drowning is like, or try to make him feel badly about this. I don't think that at 4 years old, he needs to "understand" how scary/painful it was for the chick in teh way an adult could understand it - they're jsut not there yet at 4 years old. Developing sympathy/empathy is a process, and repeatedly addressing the chick's circumstance of death is likely not going to be helpful in helping him learn either. Chalk it up as a lesson that he is not able to handle playing with the chicks unsupervised. He's processing it in a way that's totally normal for a 4yo, and I wouldn't worry about him becoming an animal torturer/serial killer, or even indifferent to life.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *RiverSky*


Yeah, I'm leaning this way, too.

It was a tragic accident, and thank goodness it was not your son.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *LaLaLaLa*


When my DD, who is four, has done something wrong, she often tries to pretend that it hasn't happened at all or that she doesn't care. I think this is a defense mechanism against disappointment and horror. It sounds like you've been handing out plenty of disappointment and horror, in an attempt to get through. I'd argue that you've already gotten through perhaps too much.

He didn't mean to hurt the chick. In his brain and heart he might be completely devastated by what he has done, and your disappointment is more than he can take. Perhaps he CAN'T show remorse, because his wall of uncaring is all that is keeping him from completely disintegrating. After all, today he's killed a living thing, been made aware that this living thing was terrified and in agony before it died, and has been made aware that his parents must think he's pretty awful, as they keep pushing his face in this terrible thing he's done by mistake.

Please, please, don't pressure him any more to show he's sorry. This is the kind of memory that will stick with him and continue to haunt him as he grows up and deals with more death. Poor kid.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*


Yep.. drop the subject, and make sure he doesn't play with them anymore (in the pool).

He probably does feel bad, but won't say he does.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *North_Of_60*


I think it's completely ridiculous that he was even given the opportunity to attempt making such decisions. A 4 year old alone with a kiddy pool and a fragile baby animal? Uh, not the kid's fault here. He's 4.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *potatocraft*


Ummm....Even if you child is good around water, you need watch him. Children can drown in an inch of water. What if he is running around the kiddy pool trips falls in and bumps his head. Then he is face first unconcious in water. 
As for the chick, I'm sorry that happened. And even if he doesn't show it, he will be too. He will remember later, and know better.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*


I don't think any of us here are tryingot say she should let him think it's OK to do, some of us are just taking exception to a detailed description of the chick's fear and pain before being drowned, and what drowning feels like. *I* don't want to think about that, and I"m an adult, and I didn't do it. I can't imagine how traumatizing having that conversation *more than once* could potentially be to a 4-yo, especially when said 4 yo caused the chick's death (even though it was accidental).

I think an *age appropriate* discussion about being careful with animals is ABSOLUTELY warranted...but that IMO does not include a graphic description of the chick's final moments on earth.

Also, I'd gently agree that no matter how advanced/mature he may be, this wasn't about a right or wrong decision made by him, it was about an accident that happened at the hands of a small child. I would hate for him to be saddled with the responsibility for this when really he's still so little and the decision to allow him to play with a chick unsupervised was not his.

I'm not trying to be harsh with you, I promise, OP. I just am trying to get you to reframe things a little maybe. 4 years old, no matter how precocious, is still 4 years old.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *prothyraia*


Have you considered apologizing to him for letting this happen? It sounds like you agree that it wasn't really his fault, and that you should have been more closely supervising the situation. Something like "DS, I'm really sorry about what happened with the chicky. I should have been there to help you play with it and keep it safe. "; it could help him address the situation emotionally without having to feel overwhelmed by blame.

Edited to add: And if he's really just* not* sad about it, seeing _you _be sad about it and sad about your role in it models the empathy/responsibility you want him to develop. So either way, I think it could be helpful.



Quote:



Originally Posted by **Erin**


oh no, i see you already let him know what happened, i would have said don't tell him, let it go, and don't let it happen again. your response to him, that was way graphic and TMI for him, imo. you can't *make* someone feel empathy. you model it, and eventually, hopefully, they get it. im sure that inside, he does feel sad. you don't have to make him actually be upset into tears though, to know that. i agree with pp who sugg. you apologize to him for not supervising enough. because really, at 4, he was too little be alone with a baby chick and water. and kids that little don't have the most solid grasp (if any) on death. that wasnt his fault. i hope you take some of that off of him.











Quote:



Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*


I just have to say I think you're pretty awesome for handling the feedback the way you did.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *mtiger*


Wow. I'm rather hands-off and I didn't leave my kids in a real pool without constant supervision before they were ~10. Stuff happens.

In Scouts, the kids were never to be around water w/o a buddy. And we're talking a heck of a lot older than 4. This is seriously an accident waiting to happen.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*


I agree that this was not about the 4 yr olds decision to do this. It was the adults who let him do it, knew he was doing it and let it continue, that made the wrong decision, not the 4 yr old. I am trying to say this as kind as possible, but I feel the adults in charge are at fault here, big time. He is 4 yrs old. He needs adults to make decisions and teach him what he can and cannot do and so on. To let him do whatever he is going to do and then emotionally punish him by trying to instill a deep level of guilt in him....not good. Plus, what happens once he grasps what he did? Then he internalizes it and sees himself as a killer? What kind of behaviors will he have then? This is a perfect example of why children need limits and parents to watch over them and care for them and show them their way and so on.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*


Children do die in water that shallow. Children his age die in bathtubs. I don't know of tons of drownings, but I do know of children dying in bathtubs, which mean not deep. It takes one little slip. He was watched so loosely that no one saw him putting the chick under the water. Therefore, he was watched loosely enough that he could have gone under too. Supervising from the otherside of the door is not acceptable. This is exactly why I do not let others supervise my children in water activities like pools and baths. Too many people think listening from the next room, being in the vicinity, and so on, is ok. It is not ok. It is the story 99% of the time a child drowns.



Quote:



Originally Posted by *phreedom*


I would like to add that you have handled the responses pretty well. I think you handled it just fine. I think you were a little graphic on the chick dying though. He's only four. Unless he had intentionally held the chick underwater to "see what would happen" (in which case a brief description of how drowning stuff sucks would be appropriate) or seemed to garner some sort of enjoyment out of seeing the chick die, I wouldn't be to upset that he said he wasn't sad. He may have been sad, but death and dying is kind of a foreign concept at that age. I wouldn't take that to mean he's a budding serial killer/animal torturer. At the time you were probably horrified by his seeming lack of empathy. It's a big responsibility to expect a four year old to be responsible for keeping a helpless, fragile baby animal alive. He may understand enough to protect the chick from obvious dangers (i.e don't put it in the middle of the road, in front of the dog ect...) but death by drowning may not be something he "gets" yet. Especially since it seems many animals can swim just fine. Even baby ones.

My daughter is 2.5 (almost 3) and she is just now getting the concept of "hurting people", but that's only if we make exaggerated "sad faces". She will then say "sorry" and go back to doing the same thing 2 seconds later. Hurting animals? Forget it. I just supervise her very carefully and constantly remind her that we don't hit animals.



I agree with all this - also re:drowning/swimming I would still supervise a swimming toddler / young child. And, now I also feel really misinformed because I remember being told that drowning was a peaceful way to die - so thats probably what I would have told my child. I'm sure your child is sad, even if he isn't letting on... his way of coping.


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