# Unconditional Parenting support thread



## BetsyNY

Is there any interest in this?

Here are the thirteen principles of Unconditional Parenting:

1. Be reflective.
2. Reconsider your requests.
3. Keep your eye on your long term goals.
4. Put the relationship first.
5. Change how you see, not just how you act.
6. R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
7. Be authentic.
8. Talk less, ask more.
9. Keep their ages in mind.
10. "Attribute to children the best possible motive consistent with the facts."
11. Don't stick your no's in unnecessarily.
12. Don't be rigid.
13. Don't be in a hurry.


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## OGirlieMama

Yes. There is! UP is so counter to the prevailing parenting style that it gets to be really difficult to distinguish at times whether I'm being UP or just "spoiling" them, KWIM?

#13 is actually the hardest one for me many days. I feel like I need to start getting them into the car 2 hours before we need to go, just to avoid the struggle.


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## Serendipity

Great idea!


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## BetsyNY

I think #11-#13 give me the most trouble. I probably do all three at once, sometimes--a rigid, hurrying, no-spewing mommy.

#11 is so, so tough. It does make SUCH a difference, though, to always allow more time, to be conscious of rushing when there's nothing to rush to. So it takes twenty minutes to walk down from the bus stop...we have no pressing engagements.


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
I think #11-#13 give me the most trouble. I probably do all three at once, sometimes--a rigid, hurrying, no-spewing mommy.

#11 is so, so tough. It does make SUCH a difference, though, to always allow more time, to be conscious of rushing when there's nothing to rush to. So it takes twenty minutes to walk down from the bus stop...we have no pressing engagements.

Definitely. I am trying to be VERY conscious of this these days. When we get home from somewhere, unless I have to pee very badly, I try not to sweat the 20 minutes it takes to get from the driveway to the front door, because they have to pick clover flowers, dandelions, and rocks, and point out every spiderweb in the yard. Man, is it hard to slow down, though! But I hope it makes up for the mornings when I might as well be poking them with a cattle prod saying "We're going to be late...don't you want to go to Gymboree? Mr. Dan is waiting for you! Can I just carry you to the car? Come on don't you want to go have fun?" I probably annoy them as much as they do me in those cases.


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## frontierpsych

Yes, very interested! My DS is only 9 months old, but I need to get in the right mindset for when he gets older and I really need to apply these principles.


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## TopHat

I'm interested! My DD is 14 months, so we don't run into many parenting issues. Mostly it's tantrums when she's tired- and those are completely preventable and come with warning signs!


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## Areia

I'm also eager to learn more. I just picked up Connection Parenting by Pam Leo and will start it this weekend. Any other good suggestions? I think the hardest for me will be # 12 and #13. I often find myself wanting to stick to routines and meet my "deadlines" which of course isn't really working out all that well is a not-quite 2 year old.


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## LCBMAX

subbing...


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## Materfamilias

I have trouble with ALL of them








I'm working on it, but I find lately it's my overall mindset I need to change, rather than the individual things/practices. When I first read Kohn I kept thinking, "OK, _great_ philosophy, but I need _techniques_, man!"
More and more I'm getting that I need to make the philosophical jump before I can move on to practice, so Kohn is making more sense all the time.
Thanks for posting the list. It's going on the fridge tomorrow.


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## JustVanessa

I am in! I generally avoid this forum because I get intimidated and feel guilty too much, but The incredible years parenting course I have been taking has really changed my mindset. It generally follows UP principles.

I have the biggest problem with the no hurrying one. My goodness, I wish my 4 year old would just pick up the pace sometimes!


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Materfamilias* 
More and more I'm getting that I need to make the philosophical jump before I can move on to practice, so Kohn is making more sense all the time.

I find myself recommending Kohn more & more because of this gap between theory & practice--moms not wanting to punish but otherwise using language that suggests a goal of obedience or control over the child's behavior.

It IS hard to parent this way 100% of the time, especially when having been parented very differently. I've been channeling cliches from my own parents lately--UGH--and I'll say, wait, that's not me--that's my mother talking... I think this very act of minffulness--pausing, seeing myself, questioning my motives, being willing to look at the situation differently and change the scenario in mid-course makes a big difference. At least I hope so!


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## syd'smom

I read _UP_ ages ago - so I just copied and pasted that wonderful list for my fridge! As pp mentioned, it seemed to philosophical when I read it before, but now I keep reminding dh and myself to *think* before I respond/react. Very difficult sometimes!


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## Pam_and_Abigail

I try to do UP, but I am flailing in discipline, especially with my oldest, who is defiant and has major meltdowns at home and at school.


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## krystyn33

Article about unconditionality:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/unconditional.htm

I'm so happy to have found this--thanks to Jan Hunt's Natural Child website..


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## L'lee

I'm interested, too! I really enjoyed this book and found that it really spoke to me and justified a lot of my feelings about parenting.

Here is some more info that I put together when we had a discussion in my local natural families group:

Quote:

Unconditional Parenting - Guiding Principles: 
1. *BE REFLECTIVE:* Be introspective and willing to question yourself, strive to improve and better understand yourself.
2. *RECONSIDER YOUR REQUESTS:* Are your requests unreasonable? Does your child really need to make the bed, eat vegetables, or practice the piano? Will they dislike this later because they are forced to do it now?
3. *KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR LONG-TERM GOALS:* Evaluate your goals on a regular basis, try to think long-term instead of short.
4. *PUT THE RELATIONSHIP FIRST:* "Being right isn't necessarily what matters." When they trust us, they are more likely to tell us when something is important to them. If you have to do something that will strain the relationship, make sure it is worth it.
5. *CHANGE HOW YOU SEE, NOT JUST HOW YOU ACT:* Think in terms of problem solving and teaching/learning opportunities instead of infractions needing consequences.
6. *R-E-S-P-E-C-T:* They may understand more than we do, especially regarding their own feelings and needs. Don't assume you know better just because you are older and more experienced.
7. *BE AUTHENTIC:* Be human, it is OK to feel insecure, tired, sad, nervous, etc. Let them see that adults disagree with each other and can respectfully resolve problems or tolerate differences in opinion. Admit to mistakes and apologize. (Don't tell them age-inappropriate things, though.)
8. *TALK LESS, ASK MORE:* Elicit ideas, objections, feelings; allow freedom, independence, power, expression of fears, etc. Create a sense of safety, listen without judging. Ask thought provoking questions, not one-answer or rhetorical questions, and be open for unexpected answers.
9. *KEEP THEIR AGES IN MIND:* Keep your expectations developmentally appropriate (age, special needs, personal limitations).
10. *ATTRIBUTE TO CHILDREN THE BEST POSSIBLE MOTIVES CONSISTENT WITH THE FACTS:* Our beliefs can create a self-fulfilling prophecy - give the benefit of the doubt, especially for younger children.
11. *DON'T STICK YOUR "NOs" IN UNNECESSARILY:* Don't say "No" unless it is necessary for safety. Say yes to wants whenever possible, while still respecting your own wants and making decisions based on the situation. Pick your battles. Be as mindful as possible, not on "autoparent."
12. *DON'T BE RIGID:* Wave rules on special occasions, make exceptions, be flexible and spontaneous. In general, be predictable, but don't overdo it.
13. *DON'T BE IN A HURRY:* Rushing makes coersion more likely. Alter your environment instead of behavior. Enjoy your time together.

What do you do when your children act in ways that are disturbing or inappropriate, and want to let them know that we disapprove?
- Limit the number of criticisms
- Limit the scope of each criticism - make sure you criticize a certain action instead of implying that there is something wrong with the child
- Limit the intensity of each criticism, be as gentle as possible while making sure that the message gets across. Be aware of body language, facial expressions, and tone/volume of voice
- Look for alternatives to criticism - help see effects of action, how it may hurt others or make their lives difficult
- State what you see, give opportunities to think about how to make things better, restore, repair, replace, clean up, apologize, etc.

*When they Have To but Don't Want To:*
1. Use the least intrusive strategy, be as gentle and kind as possible, don't overwhelm them with your power. Don't get pulled into a struggle - request and move away (requires self-restraint).
2. Be honest with them.
3. Explain the rationale.
4. Turn it into a game.
5. Set an Example - clean up after yourself, turn off the lights.
6. Give them as much of a choice as possible.

*Key Phrases:*
How we feel about our kids isn't as important as how they experience those feelings and how they regard the way we treat them. (The message received, not the message we thing we're sending.)

Children shouldn't have to earn our approval, we should love them for no good reason and it is important for them to believe and percieve this, too. Love should not be based on behavior, achievment or performance.

*Our default position ought to be to let our kids make decisions about matters that concern them except when there is a compelling reason for us to override that right. We should be prepared to justify why, in each case, kids shouldn't be allowed to choose.*

*Move from doing things TO kids to doing things WITH kids*.

Think about long-term goals a LOT, reevaluate regularly.

Reconsider your basic assumptions about parent-child relationships - how we act with children, how we think and feel about them.

Behaviors are just the outward expression of feelings, needs, thoughts, and intentions. Work with the child, not the behavior.

The dominant problem with parenting in our society isn't permissiveness, but the FEAR of permissiveness.

It may not be possible for kids to feel unconditionally loved ALL of the time, but we should strive for as much of the time as possible.

Give special treats or gifts periodically for NO reason.

Take special delight when a child does something remarkable but not in a way that suggests that your love hinges on such events.

The way kids learn to make good decisions is by making decisions, not following directions.

The question isn't whether limits and rules are necessary, but who sets them - adults alone or adults and children together.

Kids should be allowed to make decisions about things that are important to us adults.

Kids who are encouraged to become actively involved in decision-making tend to exhibit higher-level moral reasoning.

Help children develop reasons to support their own views, even if we don't agree with those views.

Children will experience plenty of frustration without us having to impose it on them as a "learning experience."

Unconditional parents are just as proud of their child even when their child does NOT succeed.

Children need our support when they experience failure MORE than when they feel success.

Speak with words AND actions, especially during a conflict. "No matter what you do, no matter how frustrated I feel, I will never, never, never stop loving you."

Goal: AVOID battles, not WIN them.

If it becomes necessary to remove the child from a situation, do not remove the child from yourself, also.

There is a difference between sending a child away against their will and giving a child the OPTION to go to their room or some other inviting space when they are angry or upset - they have control over when they go/return, where they go, and what to do; this can be a helpful tool.

Kids will know when we are displeased, we must strive to communicate in different ways that our basic acceptance of them is a given.

There is a danger that by lavishing children with positive reinforcement when they succeed, that they perceive that our love is based on what they have done, not who they are.

When kids brainstorm, they think of ideas we never would have and they are more likely to go along with their own ideas.

Kids who know most things are negotiable are less likely to challenge every decision.

If you are in public, ignore everyone around you - it is not about what people think, it is about what your child needs.

Imagine how the situation looks from the child's point of view - the child may be afraid of his/her rage and lack of control. Keep him/her safe from harm, THEN worry about other people and LAST property. Provide comfort and reassurance.

Healthy Toddlers show a bit of noncompliance, but gradually cooperate.

Let child know that he/she doesn't have to argue as well as you do in order to be taken seriously, and you want to help him/her learn how to frame arguments more convincingly. "Respectfully talking back."

Moral sophistication, cognitive flexibility and the capacity to care about others aren't luxuries, and are NOT mutually exclusive with basic survival skills and street smarts. We want our kids to have all of these things.

Unconditional love, relationships based on respect and trust, opportunities for kids to participate in making decisions, etc. may be MOST important for kids who are growing up in tough neighborhoods.

*Sometimes the best alternative to black and white isn't gray, but orange.*


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## sapphire_chan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L'lee* 
I'm interested, too! I really enjoyed this book and found that it really spoke to me and justified a lot of my feelings about parenting.

Here is some more info that I put together when we had a discussion in my local natural families group:

Wow. That's really great.

Y'know, if you submitted it to a parenting magazine (hmm, Mothering springs to mind for some reason







) and it got published, I could recommend it to other people. Just saying...


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## L'lee

Oh, thanks! Really the credit goes to Alfie Kohn, I just copied things out of the book that seemed especially meaningful! They are pretty much direct quotes. I need to print out another copy and put it on the fridge.









At first I was feeling like it was really hard to apply these to a 1 year old even though I do like to talk to him about what's going on and pay attention to his needs and preferences and I think that's one of the most important things at that age. Now that my son is 3 years old it seems that I can put more of these things into practice, although sometimes I feel like I'm much better at the theory than the actual practice! I think that it would be very helpful to have some discussion!

I think that one of the positives that is also a negative about this book is that there is a lot of theory, but not much in terms of "How To's" - you HAVE to be creative.


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## liliaceae

Ooh I'd love to join you all--I'll post more tomorrow!


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## intentionalmama

Hi, I would like to join as well. I had a situation the other day that really through me. My son who has just turned six was having a hard time ending the day. It was nearly 10 pm and he was dying to go outside and do his alka seltzer and water rockets. After saying no, I thought about it and since we homeschool and we didn't have to be anywhere the next am I decided to let him do a couple. Well, he just wanted to keep going. So finally that was it and he came in and he was MAD! Wow! He stormed into our room (we co-sleep) and climbed into bed and suddenly my dh and I hear blaring music pouring out of the room. He had figured out the clock radio and is just staring at me. I turned the music off. He turned it on and got right in my face. No! Leave it alone! Get out of here!

I didn't know what to do. I felt kind of paralyzed. He was challenging me in a way that I didn't know how to respond to. I know that if this had been me when I was a kid, I would have received a spanking, been shamed for talking that way to my parents and the radio would be shut down.

I thought about taking the radio away, but I really didn't want to do that unless I had to. I just kept looking at him, with this blaring music in the background. He just kept staring at me, with this intense angry look. As I looked at him, my little guy who's just turned six; and this heavy hard music blaring; I said are you six or sixteen? And somehow, I started to laugh. He then started to laugh. We both fell on the bed laughing. Then I turned the radio off. He jumped off. Leave it on! But by this time something had shifted in me. I said Ok, you can listen to it for five minutes, and then I'm coming in and it is going off.

I left the room and went out to dh. As I listened to the music blaring, I started to get confused again and I was actually a bit nervous about how I wanted to handle the situation. I was ready to take the clock radio away, but I really didnt' want to. After about seven minutes I went in, he was almost fast asleep. I turned it off - and he said no, it's only three minutes. I said, no, it's past five minutes. He said, did you see that when you left I turned it up. I said "no, I didn't see that." He said, "I didn't want you to know." I said, "well, I didn't" He then said, can you give me a light massage? We do this massage where I get him to imagine a ball of light relaxing him. I said, "yes," I gave him the massage. He said, "mummy, I love you." I said "I love you to" And it felt good saying this, as I felt I was saying I love you even when ... He pretty much fell fast asleep in my arms.

So, while I didn't know what to do, somehow I think the unconditional parenting premise of remembering the relationship really helped.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L'lee* 
I'm interested, too! I really enjoyed this book and found that it really spoke to me and justified a lot of my feelings about parenting.

Here is some more info that I put together when we had a discussion in my local natural families group:


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## BetsyNY

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
Well, he just wanted to keep going. So finally that was it and he came in and he was MAD! Wow! He stormed into our room (we co-sleep) and climbed into bed and suddenly my dh and I hear blaring music pouring out of the room. He had figured out the clock radio and is just staring at me. I turned the music off. He turned it on and got right in my face. No! Leave it alone! Get out of here!

I didn't know what to do. I felt kind of paralyzed. He was challenging me in a way that I didn't know how to respond to. I know that if this had been me when I was a kid, I would have received a spanking, been shamed for talking that way to my parents and the radio would be shut down.

.

I'm glad this situation resolved in a way that was agreeable to both of you! I just wanted to offer that he was dealing with his anger in, IMO, an acceptable way, telling you that he wanted some space and listening to loud music.


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## intentionalmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
I just wanted to offer that he was dealing with his anger in, IMO, an acceptable way, telling you that he wanted some space and listening to loud music.

Interesting. I like how you say this. It makes sense that this is normal behavior when you are tired and not being able to do what you want.

I was completely thrown by it though. Of course we have had many situations where we disagree but usually I find empathy " I know your disappointed, etc. works pretty well. He may want some time on his own; he may even express anger. But this time it felt so different - so much more like a challenge. Even the music -I don't think it was completely on the station and just sounded like a lot of terrible noise. I felt he wanted the music on to call us in to see how angry he was.

Anyway, what bothered me most was my own fear. Fear that I didnt' know how to handle the situation in a loving caring way. I could see how my parents would treat us - they wanted us to stop what we were doing. THey definately would not have seen this as an acceptable way to act.

I think that unconditional parenting is much the same as unconditional love both for the child and ourselves. I think parenting this way can bring healing to our ownselves when we are able to accept/treat our children in the way we would have wanted to have been accepted/treated.


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## russianthistle

Wow, Intentional! I admire how you handled this situation.

subbing...haven't read the book...ordering it, now.....................


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## Surfacing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
Anyway, what bothered me most was my own fear. Fear that I didnt' know how to handle the situation in a loving caring way. I could see how my parents would treat us - they wanted us to stop what we were doing. They definately would not have seen this as an acceptable way to act.

I think that unconditional parenting is much the same as unconditional love both for the child and ourselves. I think parenting this way can bring healing to our ownselves when we are able to accept/treat our children in the way we would have wanted to have been accepted/treated.









I can really relate to what you are saying here.


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## liliaceae

I've been reading "Raising our Children, Raising Ourselves" by Naomi Aldort, which seems to be in line with UP. One thing she really gets across is that children learn through modeling (they do what we do); they don't learn by being forced by us to do things.

This was a really important concept for me, since I think one of the reasons I didn't just naturally unconditionally parent was because I was afraid how my kids would turn out if I didn't teach them what's right and wrong. It never occurred to me that kids could just learn moral/polite/empathic behavior on their own without us drilling it into them.


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## liliaceae

Oh I forgot--can anyone tell me what the difference between Unconditional Parenting and Consensual Living is?? I don't know a lot about CL, I've been meaning to look into it.

And....I watched the UP DVD, but haven't read the book yet. Do you think it's important I get a copy of the book?


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## liliaceae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
I think that unconditional parenting is much the same as unconditional love both for the child and ourselves. I think parenting this way can bring healing to our ownselves when we are able to accept/treat our children in the way we would have wanted to have been accepted/treated.

Aldort really speaks to this in her book.


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## mandolyn

IntentionalMama - I am amazed you were able to stay as calm and patient as you did. I feel like I need to channel some of your "zen" into my own life b/c I think I would have jumped into "control-mama" given the same situation with the music. And then I would have felt terribly about it.

I also really appreciate the previous posters who gave snipets from the book. What a great reminder of how I would like to parent. Which brings me to my current dilemma....

I am the mom of a newly-3 year old girl and a 4-month old boy. The 3-year old still nurses, though it is to the point where it drives me BATTY, especially when she nurses while her brother does. I am really ready to wean her on theh spot, but I also feel as though she really needs this connection with me, or at least SOME connection with me (and I also believe in child-led weaning, though it's HARD). So, to preserve my sanity, I've cut her down to one time a day, at bedtime. In the mornings though, she'll often ask for "mop" (our word for it), and while I feel badly saying no, I just have to because when I used to nurse her in the morning, she'd wake at 5:45, and then 6:15, and then 6:45, and then again at 7:15... all for more mop each time. And now that I have her infant brother clamoring for it too (and of course I HAVE to feed him!), it's too little sleep for me and to be frank, just too much touching! When I offer snuggles instead, she either starts pulling my hair to get her love fill (which HURTS, doesn't allow me to sleep, and annoys the heck out of me so I have to say no again to her) or she just starts screaming and hitting me, saying "I don't want snuggles! Go away!" This of course wakes her brother, and now we're all up for the day at a ridiculous hour, and in a crappy mood. It's really a horrible start to the morning, and I don't know how to make it better for her, other than nursing her umteen times and getting no sleep.

Any advice?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
Hi, I would like to join as well. I had a situation the other day that really through me. My son who has just turned six was having a hard time ending the day. It was nearly 10 pm and he was dying to go outside and do his alka seltzer and water rockets. After saying no, I thought about it and since we homeschool and we didn't have to be anywhere the next am I decided to let him do a couple. Well, he just wanted to keep going. So finally that was it and he came in and he was MAD! Wow! He stormed into our room (we co-sleep) and climbed into bed and suddenly my dh and I hear blaring music pouring out of the room. He had figured out the clock radio and is just staring at me. I turned the music off. He turned it on and got right in my face. No! Leave it alone! Get out of here!

I didn't know what to do. I felt kind of paralyzed. He was challenging me in a way that I didn't know how to respond to. I know that if this had been me when I was a kid, I would have received a spanking, been shamed for talking that way to my parents and the radio would be shut down.

I thought about taking the radio away, but I really didn't want to do that unless I had to. I just kept looking at him, with this blaring music in the background. He just kept staring at me, with this intense angry look. As I looked at him, my little guy who's just turned six; and this heavy hard music blaring; I said are you six or sixteen? And somehow, I started to laugh. He then started to laugh. We both fell on the bed laughing. Then I turned the radio off. He jumped off. Leave it on! But by this time something had shifted in me. I said Ok, you can listen to it for five minutes, and then I'm coming in and it is going off.

I left the room and went out to dh. As I listened to the music blaring, I started to get confused again and I was actually a bit nervous about how I wanted to handle the situation. I was ready to take the clock radio away, but I really didnt' want to. After about seven minutes I went in, he was almost fast asleep. I turned it off - and he said no, it's only three minutes. I said, no, it's past five minutes. He said, did you see that when you left I turned it up. I said "no, I didn't see that." He said, "I didn't want you to know." I said, "well, I didn't" He then said, can you give me a light massage? We do this massage where I get him to imagine a ball of light relaxing him. I said, "yes," I gave him the massage. He said, "mummy, I love you." I said "I love you to" And it felt good saying this, as I felt I was saying I love you even when ... He pretty much fell fast asleep in my arms.

So, while I didn't know what to do, somehow I think the unconditional parenting premise of remembering the relationship really helped.


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## mckennasmomma

I'd like o join! I ordered UP the other day and will start reading as soon as it comes. My dd is only 9 mo but I'd like to get started on the right foot with my philosophy and actions.

and hoo boy do i hope to handle situations as well as intentionalmama did! i think the resolution of that situation speaks loudly to the 6 years prior as well though, not just that one incident. how we treat our children every day, kwim?


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## ShadowMom

Subbing.

I love this book, and I detest most parenting books.









It completely changed my outlook on parenting (MDC helped with this as well though).

I definitely tend to re-enact the way I was parented as a child. Rather than being autocratic, I tend to be passive aggressive and I withdraw when I'm frustrated or mad (which my DS definitely interprets as withdrawing my love).

I've let go of many of the unhealthy ideals about obedience and such. What I really struggle with is:

1. Dealing with conflict in a healthy way, not being passive aggressive.
2. Requiring that other people (including DS) act respectfully toward me and not allowing abusive or disrespectful behaviors (this is more than just a parenting style, it's a problem in my relationships)
3. Being consistent with how I deal with things

Those are my challenges and would love to hear from other mamas who might be facing similar things.

We have worked with a play therapist and I have learned about reflecting feelings back, really listening, how to let DS know that I'm listening, etc.

In the mama's situation with the radio above, I might have said something like, "You want me to know that you're really mad right now because you had to come inside. You wanted to keep playing with your rocket. You want me to leave you alone right now." or something along those lines. I think children feel that they aren't listened to, and aren't understood a lot of the time.

Great thread.


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## Paeta16

Great idea Betsy! I'm definitely in since many of the principals for UP do not come naturally to me. I was raised in a yelling household and I have a quick temper myself. I find myself frustrated a lot with my 26 month old and then berating myself for MY reactions to her being a normal 2 y.o!

That being said, we are working through it and I think both of us are getting used to her being 2!LOL

I'd say my biggest problems are with #3, 5, and 11. Keeping long-term goals in mind minute to minute with a toddler is HARD! As for changing how I see and not just how I act...this one is a BIG BIG one for me. I want to say no a lot (#11) and DH always wants to go the hard discipline route when he's frustrated with her even though we both know logical consequences and NOT punishment work so much more effectively.

I guess DH and I also have a hard time keeping her age in mind. She is only 2 but she communicates SO SO well...well above her age IMO which makes it difficult to remember that she conceptually cannot understand a lot still.

Anyway, I love this idea Betsy. Thanks!


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## GradysMom

Hey OP thanks for starting this.. didn't realize this is where my Ap style was going but so much of this list I do.. and strive for.

Copy, paste, enlarge, bold, print.... walking to refrigerator.

Will try to sub if I can figure it out.


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## intentionalmama

Oh, Manydolyn, I feel for you. I talked to my friend who has a ds6 and dd3. She is exhausted at times from her dd's nursing especially at night time. She really felt for you as you have the complication of your daughter's feelings around the new baby.

She had been talking a lot to her daughter during times when they weren't nursing about the nursing and also decided to make specific times when she would nurse with her. When she woke up, before they went out, and before bed. Finally her little one is starting to not get up during the night, but she said that could change.

When I was nursing my son, I was feeling very exhausted and done at one point. (He was 2 years 9 months and still up every two hours in the night) He was constantly asking "wanna nurse", and I started saying nicely, "not really." and then we would nurse. Then I read an article I think from Le Leache Leage and it really affected me. The story was about a woman nursing her (similar age son) and how he would also ask "wanna nurse". I saw my son so much in the article that it blew my heart open. I then realized how wonderful/fleeting/ this nursing relationship was. The next time he asked me "wanna nurse" I said "YES!" And I meant it. The sad thing for me, was within ten days he decided to stop. Then I wasn't ready; and I had to grieve the ending that seemed to suddenly come way to soon!

I know my story is very different from your situation; and may not be very helpful as you are nursing your baby son as well; and I can only imagine how tired you are. You may want to post in the breastfeeding forum as mothers there may also have more ideas.
Hang in there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandolyn* 
I am the mom of a newly-3 year old girl and a 4-month old boy. The 3-year old still nurses, though it is to the point where it drives me BATTY, especially when she nurses while her brother does. I am really ready to wean her on theh spot, but I also feel as though she really needs this connection with me, or at least SOME connection with me (and I also believe in child-led weaning, though it's HARD). So, to preserve my sanity, I've cut her down to one time a day, at bedtime. In the mornings though, she'll often ask for "mop" (our word for it), and while I feel badly saying no, I just have to because when I used to nurse her in the morning, she'd wake at 5:45, and then 6:15, and then 6:45, and then again at 7:15... all for more mop each time. And now that I have her infant brother clamoring for it too (and of course I HAVE to feed him!), it's too little sleep for me and to be frank, just too much touching! When I offer snuggles instead, she either starts pulling my hair to get her love fill (which HURTS, doesn't allow me to sleep, and annoys the heck out of me so I have to say no again to her) or she just starts screaming and hitting me, saying "I don't want snuggles! Go away!" This of course wakes her brother, and now we're all up for the day at a ridiculous hour, and in a crappy mood. It's really a horrible start to the morning, and I don't know how to make it better for her, other than nursing her umteen times and getting no sleep.

Any advice?


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## Kappa

I think I need to get this book. I have a 15 mo old, and everyone around me seems to be of the "negative consequences early" school of thought. I know what type of parent I want to be, and need help connecting the dots on what my philosophy is in my head, so this book might really help us. Great post!


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## Sweet_Island_Mama

I'd love to join in with you all *bookmarking*


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## mckennasmomma

book arrived yesterday. so far i love the intro and first chapter!


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## LeahC

I'm definitely subbing. We have been going through some trying periods with our little man- all normal, but still frustrating nonetheless.


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## SamanthaLizK

I love UP and really couldn't parent any other way. I detest how people treat children like half humans







Will definetly follow this thread.


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## LCBMAX

OK, subbed til now. Finished the book and am very moved by it. It feels like a step beyond, a more thoughtful step past the positive reflections I've been doing with 16 month old son. Trying now not to say "good job" but instead say "Was that fun?" or "I see the kitty moving away which often means she doesn't want to cuddle." Still, it's hard to change these automatic responses. And, not a lot in the book is as easy to apply to such a little one. Anyone else doing this with younger toddlers? Your experience?


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LCBMAX* 
Anyone else doing this with younger toddlers? Your experience?

DS is now 2.5 and I read UP fairly early. I try to think of it in terms of emphasis on the spirit of the law, rather than the letter--I may act out of habitual patterns formed from my own upbringing or even let loose a "good job" once in a while. My emphasis is on remaining aware of my responses and the motivations & energy behind them--am I trying to control him? Am I worried about potential embarrassment from his behavior? Am I giving him space to feel his feelings and nurturing his authentic self & growth process? I fail my own standards, probably at least once a day, but I stay tuned in and watchful and always make positive effort. And when a particular response of mine strays from the UP-style, I note it (apologize if needed--like if I lost my temper) and move forward. The emotional connection between DS and I remains strong and I feel the "relaxed energy" of feeling loved unconditionally from him--if that makes sense. Hard to say just what I mean there. But one thing I really appreciate from Kohn is that our specific words & actions matter less than how they are perceived by the child, particularly with regard to their estimation of our unconditional love (and delight and appreciation) for them. So yes, I check that my parenting practice falls in line with parenting theory (was that punishment or redirection?), but more of my focus is on DS--keeping our connection strong and being in tune with his emotional needs. The quality of our relationship (at a deep level) matters more than the particulars of what we do. Punishments, bribes, coercion, etc., when the rule & not the exception, are bound to create disconnection that would be evident in a less harmonious relationship.

Hope that makes some sense--I'm lacking sleep!









Another thing I'll add is that the social pressure to actively "discipline" (control) children can be strong during the toddler years, since we deal with many socially unacceptable behaviors like hitting, not sharing, etc. Finding like-minded mamas to spend time with or at least for commiseration & reinforcement can be a big help. And once you see them start learning without that coercion your trust in the process will be fortified.


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
Finding like-minded mamas to spend time with or at least for commiseration & reinforcement can be a big help. And once you see them start learning without that coercion your trust in the process will be fortified.

Great to read your experience and the light hearted way you are approaching it. This idea of having like-minded mamas around is really key for me. Luckily one other mom in our playgroup is interested in the book, and I think the others will be as they hear me natter on more about the ideas. I have learned so much from my co-mamas already.


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## St. Margaret

Subbing!

I adore this book, and most of Kohn's writings. I feel like, once you see parenting and children in this light, it's impossible to go back and view things the "traditional" discipline way again. I do need to remind myself to question a lot of the habits I do just from seeing my mom at her home daycare with a bunch of kids, or from my educational training, or just TV and etc. But I love the spirit of this book. It awakened within me exactly what I really wanted to do as a parent.

And I find it really informs my understanding of my DD. I can totally read situations easily now-- I can see that she is feeling insecure and needs a little time to cuddle and reaffirm that mommy loves her, and I can give her that and then we can all move on happily, instead of getting bogged down "dealing with" "behavior." It's amazing how it clicks, if you keep reminding yourself to keep your eyes open.


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## Jennbee

I've been meaning to finish reading the UP book. When I first started reading it, it really seemed to click with me and how I wanted to parent. That was a couple of years ago and then we had our second child. How we've been parenting this past year isn't how I want to continue being a parent. I'm going to search for my book and try to finish reading it while on vacation next week.


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## kimmypoo

:


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## AmieV

Thanks to whoever posted the summary of the book. I read about the first 2/3, then flipped back to the principles and skimmed that, and honestly got completely frustrated with how few actual practical advice there was. I was in the thick of some seriously crazy tantrums from my almost 3yo and I probably would have punched Alfie Kohn in the face if I'd had the chance.









But, that said...I so believe in all of what I actually read (and it seems like a lot since that summary was totally familiar, so that's good). I feel like my mom was a totally conditional parent, and I was completely a "good girl" but now I wonder how much of that was fear based vs. my personality. It's funny but reading UP actually makes me worry about how well-behaved my oldest DD is at preschool (I also read an old Mothering article the other day about girls feeling like they can't ever rock the boat, and that worries me too). I want her to know we'll love her no matter what, because I feel like even now, at 30 years old, my mom is finally proud of me because I chose to do something she "approves" of, whereas all of my other accomplishments were meaningless in her eyes. It's silly and I want my girls to know I will love them whether they're scholars or artists, or people happy working a dead end retail job. I just want them to be happy and loved and I want them to know that.

This totally resonated with me:

"Anyway, what bothered me most was my own fear. Fear that I didnt' know how to handle the situation in a loving caring way. I could see how my parents would treat us - they wanted us to stop what we were doing. THey definately would not have seen this as an acceptable way to act."

When my middle DD started having the tantrums, I myself started having panic attacks. I didn't know what to DO and I was so afraid of what would happen the next time she had one. I lost my temper on more than a few occasions and I ignored her on others and that never worked. It became highly evident that she herself was afraid of those emotions too and needed to know we were there for her. She had one just today, in the middle of open gym with other parents and teachers everywhere and I am proud to say I had no fear, and I was able to just hold her and be there for her. I did restrain her from going out to the area where the stuff had just frustrated her, but finally she relaxed and made me take my arms off of her but just sat. Then she started doing her deep breathing and her teacher brought over some bubbles and you could just see her poor little self sort of crumble out of exhaustion. It's a lot to be 3, and it's a lot to support it. It's so much like being a doula it's weird. There's nothing I can DO to make it better, or make it stop, I can just be there and that's just what she needs. I almost started crying myself when it was over because it's just so intense. She's very smart and compassionate but man, when she's in that state she's difficult to like. But I feel like I'm learning so much and becoming a stronger parent because of how she is. I think it's the crux of UP to be able to accept your child even in their worst moments, because I know my mom would have advised taking her to the bathroom for a swift spanking. I apparently never got a spanking as a child because I was so good...but I wonder if I was so good because of fear?

Anyway, then later this evening she delivered a terrible beatdown on her baby sister and I completely lost my temper and UP went fully and completely out the window and I now need to go downstairs and apologize and put her to bed and mend our relationship since I actually called her a "terrible big sister". I have to hope that the good moments outweigh the bad because it's incredibly difficult.

Long story short, I'm subbing!


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## AngelBee

:


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## Surfacing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmieV* 
When my middle DD started having the tantrums, I myself started having panic attacks. I didn't know what to DO and I was so afraid of what would happen the next time she had one. I lost my temper on more than a few occasions and I ignored her on others and that never worked. It became highly evident that she herself was afraid of those emotions too and needed to know we were there for her. She had one just today, in the middle of open gym with other parents and teachers everywhere and I am proud to say I had no fear, and I was able to just hold her and be there for her. I did restrain her from going out to the area where the stuff had just frustrated her, but finally she relaxed and made me take my arms off of her but just sat. Then she started doing her deep breathing and her teacher brought over some bubbles and you could just see her poor little self sort of crumble out of exhaustion. It's a lot to be 3, and it's a lot to support it. It's so much like being a doula it's weird. There's nothing I can DO to make it better, or make it stop, I can just be there and that's just what she needs. I almost started crying myself when it was over because it's just so intense. She's very smart and compassionate but man, when she's in that state she's difficult to like. But I feel like I'm learning so much and becoming a stronger parent because of how she is. I think it's the crux of UP to be able to accept your child even in their worst moments, because I know my mom would have advised taking her to the bathroom for a swift spanking. I apparently never got a spanking as a child because I was so good...but I wonder if I was so good because of fear?

Anyway, then later this evening she delivered a terrible beatdown on her baby sister and I completely lost my temper and UP went fully and completely out the window and I now need to go downstairs and apologize and put her to bed and mend our relationship since I actually called her a "terrible big sister". I have to hope that the good moments outweigh the bad because it's incredibly difficult.

I can relate so much to what you wrote here.

And I too found becoming a doula made me a better mother, strangely. I had not expected it but it was a happy surprise.


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## mckennasmomma

I'm really loving UP. I'm on chapter 4 and honestly it is opening my mind in such huge ways. I find myself often disagreeing at first with any given statement, then as I read through the paragraph it starts to make perfect sense and by the end of the argument I'm 100% on board. I'm looking forward to plugging my way through it (opportunities to read are pretty short these days!) and to getting to the more concrete info, although from what everyone says it doesn't have much of that. Like a PP said, that is both good and bad in my mind.

I'm looking forward also to more "real life" stories and how you all have handled them, for better or for worse, and what you learned from it. DD is only 10 months old, so I doubt I will have much to contribute there for a while. But I also believe that now is when those building blocks are laid so I'm so glad I found this information early on in motherhood.


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## OGirlieMama

Amie, I can totally relate to feeling so good about being able to help her through the internal conflict (tantrum) in a UP-friendly way, and then totally losing it completely when the conflict is external (hitting/bitting her sister). I find that is my #1 trigger for going all Yelly Nelly - when one of them hurts her sister. (#2 is refusing to brush their teeth and/or get in bed, but I digress...)

That's a topic I'd love to talk about more - how to handle the conflict between them when it gets physical. They're too young and unpredictable for me to just let them fight it out (a la "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me") but I don't like to be constantly refereeing them, either. I also worry about whoever is the victim of the moment feeling like I am not standing up for her and don't care, but then I worry about the aggressor feeling like I'm being mean to her. I try but it just feels like there are so many pitfalls.

So, what do you do from a UP perspective when one child hurts the other intentionally?


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## MujerMamaMismo

:


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
So, what do you do from a UP perspective when one child hurts the other intentionally?

I only have one child, but I've been caring for a few sets of siblings & here's what I've drawn upon from several UP compatible sources. Number one, obviously separate them so no one gets hurt. The very non-UP thing to do would be to punish or offer a reward if they made it without fighting for x-amount of time. Neither solves the real issue of the conflict. Naming & validating the emotions prompting the behavior can help them calm down and also facilitate the development of their self control (I am angry at X, I want Y and X won't give it to me etc., but it is not ok to hit, I can use words, stomp my feet or otherwise direct the anger). It will take time for young children to master this, but part of UP is the trust that they will get it without being coerced. If there is a pattern of one child bullying another then some one-on-one to try to get down to the meat of the feelings there & maybe some play "therapy" ala Playful Parenting can help.

This doesn't help much in terms of having tools to help you feel in control of the situation. To me UP seems so much about relationship quality/meeting needs & trusting children versus control or obedience.

Naomi Aldort has a great article on this process--what we can do (after we stop ourselves from our own emotion-fueled initial reactions--we can play that out in our minds first so we can act intentionally) to help children find safe outlets for difficult feelings: http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html


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## nj's_mom

I would like to join this. My daughter is only 10 months, but I don't think there's harm in starting early ... she's a bright, precocious little girl who knows what she wants,and I think that's great. I was the same way, and I think it can be difficult for strong willed kids in this world, because there's such pressure on parents to be "in control" of their children and if they seem out of control, it's because they're weak, ignorant, or careless.

Any advice on coping with the views and opinions of others when you choose the road less traveled? (That's probably a pretty consistant question on these boards.)


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## AmieV

Betsy those are my definite top 2 triggers as well. I can also relate to it taking 2 hours to get out the door. In fact, a few weekends ago DH and I did just that, we got back from the pool at 11:30 and had somwhere to be at 2, and darn it all if we weren't STILL LATE. And had a bunch screamy fits on the way out the door.

The conflict between the two older ones for me is maddening. Abby reaps mental torture on Ellie. She's full on the "I'm not touching you!" kind of kid. So she will bug her and bug her and bug her until she breaks, hell, *I* want to smack her with the stuff she does, but Ellie eventually loses it and gets physical and pulls her down by the hair. I don't feel like either of them are "innocent" in that situation, but I can't stand that level of violence in my home (and that apart of M,JBOM didn't entirely sit well with me at any age, but I never had siblings so I didn't know if that's just part of it, or what).

With Willa, I don't even know what to do. I mean, the incident in question happened when I was sitting RIGHT THERE. She just walked over and smacked her face as hard as she could while I was 2 feet away with no warning. When she's in those moods there is nowhere where Willa is safe. I could wear her in a sling but a) She's learning to crawl and be more mobile and she really likes to be on the floor and b) if it's jealousy isn't that going to fuel it all the more??

I don't even entirely know what it is. I do know we have conversations about how it's ok to be angry, and I even tell them I don't care what they say to each other, Ellie can tell Abby "you're making me so mad I want to hit you!" but you can't actually hit. But she's three like your girls so in the heat of the moment she just can't stop herself. And that heated moment spills over to me, so I guess I need the most help with keeping myself under control in that situation, and also I need gentle tips to tearing one child off of another.With Willa, she's heartbreakingly sweet so much of the time that I can't see myself labelling her emotions for her and there's no real pattern to it. She's always had aggression but the dog used to take the brunt of it. Yesterday I had made a special point of spending lots of one on one time with her throughout the day as I could (I had all 3 of them) and we'd had some neat conversations and I thought she was feeling good. The day before that she spent 30 minutes "reading" board books to her sister. I always tell her how much Willa loves her, and point out when Willa smiles at her, and tell her she's a great big sister (though maybe that part isn't UP? is it praising? that's the thing I have a hard time with), let her know that her and Abby make Willa laugh harder than anyone else. I try to spend special alone time with each of them but they never want to go, especially Ellie, always wants Abby to come or to go where Abby is going. If I were to try to empathize feelings about the baby, I don't even know where to start because I don't have any clue what she's feeling.

And to top it all off, the problems just seem to get more complex and heartbreaking as they get older huh? My 4.5 yo DD told me that last time her BFF was over she told her she never wanted to have a playdate at our house again because they were fighting over a doll stroller. She was all worried that Hannah was really never going to come over again and we had to have a long discussion about how sometimes people get so mad they say things they don't mean. (but it was a nice segue into the blowup we had later that evening...man it was a long day!)


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## Seasons

Saw this in New Posts and I'm curious - how do you handle #12 and #13 in the mornings, when you HAVE to be at work on time, dc HAS to be at school on time?


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## AmieV

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
Saw this in New Posts and I'm curious - how do you handle #12 and #13 in the mornings, when you HAVE to be at work on time, dc HAS to be at school on time?

It's hard, and by no means does it mean you HAVE to run on toddler time all the time. I mean, if I completely never ever rushed my kids we'd never go to the fun places they really enjoy.

But I'd say if you're finding your mornings consistently hairy, I'd try to do even more prep work the night before, get up a bit earlier (I know that's hard when you're working and probably are up at the crack of dawn anyway). Is it school school or daycare? Can your dc have breakfast there? Can they wear the clothes they want to wear to school to bed the night before? Or at least choose the clothes and lay them out? I'd just sit and brainstorm as much as you can think of to make the mornings go more smoothly and then recognize that it might not be perfect but try to move through the motions as relaxed as you possibly can. I see "don't be in a hurry" as more of an admonition to not let just the general feeling of let's go, let's go, let's go color your overall parenting, you know? My oldest DD is SO not a morning person so I'm right there with you. I try to multitask and shower while she eats breakfast and half the time I come downstairs and she's still daydreaming over her full bowl of oatmeal and it makes me CAH-RAZY. So even when I am in a hurry and rushing them I try to do it in a fun way. We have a big hallway to go down to at the gym, so when I'm late and trying to get them to the childcare quickly I give them full permission to run as fast as they can.


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
Is there any interest in this?

Here are the thirteen principles of Unconditional Parenting:

1. Be reflective.
2. Reconsider your requests.
3. Keep your eye on your long term goals.
4. Put the relationship first.
5. Change how you see, not just how you act.
6. R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
7. Be authentic.
8. Talk less, ask more.
9. Keep their ages in mind.
10. "Attribute to children the best possible motive consistent with the facts."
11. Don't stick your no's in unnecessarily.
12. Don't be rigid.
13. Don't be in a hurry.

I need a support thread. I strive to achieve these things with my children. My husband is a rigid, angry dictatorial authoritarian parent. There are constantly disagreements between us. Thankfully, our children interact mostly with me, not him. So most of the time they are being parented the 'right' way.














:


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## mckennasmomma

purity lake...i'm assuming your dh would not be open to reading UP? my dh is not in to reading parenting books, but if i really want him to read something i'll give him just a couple pages or chapters so he doesn't feel like he has to read it cover to cover. if your dh read even parts of the book it could really open his mind.

amiev...what does M,JBOM mean?


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## mckennasmomma

purity lake...i'm assuming your dh would not be open to reading UP? my dh is not in to reading parenting books, but if i really want him to read something i'll give him just a couple pages or chapters so he doesn't feel like he has to read it cover to cover. if your dh read even parts of the book it could really open his mind.

amiev...what does M,JBOM mean?


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## AmieV

sorry, I acronymized a book not everyone has probably read, it's "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me" a book about sibling relationships.


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## Seasons

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmieV* 
It's hard, and by no means does it mean you HAVE to run on toddler time all the time. I mean, if I completely never ever rushed my kids we'd never go to the fun places they really enjoy.

But I'd say if you're finding your mornings consistently hairy, I'd try to do even more prep work the night before...

Thanks for explaining! No, no, actually our mornings work reasonably well, but I was just confused by the general principles and whether they meant that the "shortest common demoinator" determined when the family left the house in the mornings.







Just curious.


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## St. Margaret

I found Pantley's suggestions in Kid Cooperation, for having routines, really helpful for parenting the UP way. You set things up so the kid knows what happens next, and everyone's needs are taken care of, and you're organized, and you know how much time you need (ie get up earlier) and sometimes you do let the kid go to school with uncombed hair. I didn't like how she does a chart with rewards and punishment, but the other suggestions were so useful. I guess letting some natural consequences occur isn't totally UP, but if they are as slight as uncombed hair or a baggie of cereal in the car for breakfast instead of a nice cooked meal, for a really resistant kid, I can see going there. But for my 2yo and me, having a set routine for mornings really helps us stay on track. She wants to read books and dance naked all morning, but after a week she knew after mommy's walk and yoga and breakfast, she could read and dance all she wanted


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## momofmine

Hi all,
I really need some perspective right now with my 9 yr old. I am having a difficult time with the way he talks to me at times. Talking about it at less intense times is not helping or changing anything. I want to be respectful and non-coercive, but I am finding that the older he gets the more forceful he gets and the less influence I have. For example, he is very emotional and combative if I ask him to clean something up that he perceives his brother to have had a part in getting out (his brother is 4). I try to explain that we all work together as a team, and that I clean things up for him and that I would really appreciate if he would help out. But he just resists, yet I cannot live like this anymore because I am constantly cleaning after them. He doesn't think it's "fair" if I ask him to clean up, but I don't think it's "fair" if he sits and plays on the computer while I clean up the stream of junk he left lying strewn about the house. I know I am just venting here. I can see that his perception is his reality, and his perception is, for example, "I didn't get out all these Legos, my brother did too, and he's not helping, so why the heck should I?" I know that I just need to somehow shift my perspective, but it's really hard right now, and I am starting to think along the lines of "maybe he really does need boundaries", etc. and worry that I am doing this all wrong.


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## mckennasmomma

My dd (10 months old) often tries out her voice by doing a very high pitched and loud screech. she is especially fervent when she is eating solids and wants more. we are trying to teach her the sign for "more" and I say to her, in a quiet voice to model that for her, "Use a quieter voice please". on the one hand I don't want to squash her enthusiasm or control her, on the other hand it hurts my ears and in public draws A LOT of comments. What would be the UP way to handle this? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing with the signing and modelling? Is there some other way to handle it? Should I be more accepting of this as simply a baby thing that will pass with time?

Also, I'm about half way through UP. After I finish it I would like to continue reading more along similar lines. Given that my dd is only 10 months old, which would you recommend: How to Talk So Our Kids Will Listen, or Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves? Or something different?


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## LCBMAX

I totally remember feeling disturbed when my son would go through the screeeeeeetching phases. I worried that it was the precursor to behavioral issues, or developmental delays. They always coincided with a developmental leap forward though, so take heart.

*It is totally normal baby behaviour, and nothing that requires correction on your part.* I would not even ask her to use a quieter voice. I might offer mama some earplugs though! (We carried them with us on plane trips for nearby passengers.) Seriously, this is good - you might find some relief by joining her in her enthusiasm. If she's screeetching with joy about bananas, you can holler right along with her (no need to screetch though): Yay! bananas! wahooo! we LOVE bananas! and do a silly dance too. She'll love the company for her enthusiasm, and you'll be modelling a less ear-piercing way of celebration. If the sounds aren't joyous, you can help her translate her discomfort too.

Eating is one of the first pleasures that she can somewhat control - let her rip! May she have a life full of abundant pleasure and exuberant joy about it all. But babies do NOT need table manners. The signing is just to help her communicate, and that's been great for us. I suggest going full speed ahead with it, regardless of her voice.

As far as going out in public - a child's voice needs to be heard in this world! Let 'em comment, and you can come right back with: "We love to hear her, no matter what she has to say." My take is that this is much more along the UP lines than actual correction of the behavior.

I will end by referring to that preachy but true bumper sticker (or quote?):
"Well-behaved women rarely make history."


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## LCBMAX

While I had a lot to say to the previous poster about her 10 month old and UP, I am a little lost with my own 17 month old, ha, ironic, I know. Forgive me.

How do I handle the flavor of the week which is exuberant hitting and throwing? He laughs when I say "ouch", he tantrums when I take away the hard objects, and he takes no pleasure from hitting the couch cushion or throwing the soft ball when he wanted to do it the other way. I say things like:
Rocks we put down gently, balls we can throw hard!
We touch living things gently, but we can hit the pillows!

My enthusiasm in redirecting is not enough - he knows he's getting snowed. I feel he's too little for more serious corrections, but there have been several near misses. Do I just keep it up and redirect to a totally new activity when it's too frustrating? Is the learning curve just steeper than I expected?

Any advice?


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## mckennasmomma

awesome, thanks so much!


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## nj's_mom

I have been reading the Unconditional Parenting book, and am really enjoying it- finding a lot of things I could work on in regards to my relationships to my younger siblings (whom I watch most days) and how I can continue to model good behaviors for my 10 month old. Unfortunatley, I'm also realizing some of the negative effects my father's conditional parenting has had. Oh, well. You live, you learn, right?

How to explain to others (grandparents, family) your view on parenting without sounding too uptight? How to have them avoid over praising or trying to discipline? Some are good, I think, about respecting other's parenting styles, and others, not so much ...


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nj's_mom* 
How to explain to others (grandparents, family) your view on parenting without sounding too uptight? How to have them avoid over praising or trying to discipline? Some are good, I think, about respecting other's parenting styles, and others, not so much ...

Yeah! How to do that?! My mil is strictly "not so much". She can hardly hear us when we tell her not to give the baby juice, and when he flipped a spoon full of yogurt on the floor, not even playfully, just baby-clumsy, she actually said "No no no!" in a totally reprimanding way. Aaarrrrgh. She won't read the books I offer her, so I feel really stuck.

Anyone, help?

(Also, still hoping for advice re







throwing rocks, see post above.)


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## mckennasmomma

LCBMax: i don't feel very "qualified" to respond to your rock throwing issues but my gut instinct tells me that i think you are on the right track by offering alternatives but maybe you could question him more about 2 things: why is he doing that and what alternatives can he think of? he is awfully young for that line of questioning though, but what i'm wondering is is maybe he doesn't want to hit the pillow but maybe he can think of something else to hit that would be acceptable to you?

nj's mom: the family stuff is super tough and i am NOT a stellar example (totally got in a fight w/ my dad about co-sleeping) but what i have learned is that often the best thing to do is very simply state what YOU do for that situation and they will take it or leave it (or argue with you if they are like my dad). and at that point let it go knowing that your child spends the majority of his/her time w/ you, not the relative, and that your influence will be greater.


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## smeisnotapirate

subbing.

I have a 13 mo and he's turning into such a little man. I'm a yeller from a family of shamers and have to constantly remind myself that it's ME who has the problem, not DS.

Gotta check out that book.


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## intentionalmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
subbing.
...from a family of shamers and have to constantly remind myself that it's ME who has the problem, not DS.

I feel like I am beginning to understand why my family used shaming on us when we were growing up. I have really worked hard at trying not do this but, I caught myself doing it yesterday. My ds 6 and I were at a birthday party. After the party he started telling me how the other kids were mean to him, wouldn't let him play in the sprinkler, etc. I knew that he what he said was not true. I felt myself getting annoyed. At one point I said "you are trying to say the other kids are bad, when you are the one who is acting like a bad boy, trying to get them in trouble." I believe this is the first time I have ever called him a bad boy. When I heard the words come out of my mouth - I knew I was not doing what I wanted to do and was coming from a place of fear. He looked shocked and puzzled. I knew deep down that that was not what he was trying to do. He said something like no, that is not true. I am not trying to get anyone in trouble. I then clued in and said, "is it that you didn't know the other kids, and you didn't feel like you were fitting in?" He said yes, and that it really felt like that was happening to him." So now, I was starting to get it, he felt like people were being mean to him, because he wasn't connecting with them."

Late, I also apologized to him for calling him bad and talked to him about how I was worried about some of the things he was saying.

But what I learned here, was I didn't like his behavior - of saying things that weren't true - and felt fear that I had to stop it. I could see how my family probably used shaming out of their own fear of seeing me do something that they didn't like and not knowing how to handle it. I see that I need to somehow be aware of the fear, and instead of jumping to shaming (which is what I grew up with) try to figure out what is really going on and go from there.


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## momofmine

That's so awesome that you had that clear epiphany about that and were able to turn it around and use it to help yourself parent in the way you want to instead of on automatic parent. I see this all the time in myself, too. Thanks for that reminder of not acting from a place of fear.


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## momofmine

To the poster about the rock throwing, I think I would just remove as many possibilities for him to throw things as possible right now, and when he does, just change the environment and don't respond to the throwing. Like you said he laughs when you say ouch, he probably actually thinks it's funny. I probably wouldn't say ouch anymore, and just change the situation and move on, just so he doesn't get a response out of you. I think 17 months is very young, and he may grow out of it soon.


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## LilyGrace

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
Article about unconditionality:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/unconditional.htm

I'm so happy to have found this--thanks to Jan Hunt's Natural Child website..

Thank you for that. It seems so much more of something I am able to do than the image I previously had in my head.


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## smeisnotapirate

intentionalmama, you're so right about it being about fear. For my parents, it was fear of looking bad in front of their friends. We were always told (by others) that we were the "perfect kids" when, in reality, we were scared to death of our parents and what they'd do to us if we "stepped out of line."

Whenever I find myself frustrated and angry at DS, it's because I'm afraid of how others are looking at me, afraid that I can't make him stop crying and it will scar him for life, etc. Reminding myself of that and validating my fears in the moment seems to help a lot. Mindfulness, you know?


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## intentionalmama

*


smeisnotapirate said:



For my parents, it was fear of looking bad in front of their friends. We were always told (by others) that we were the "perfect kids" ..

Click to expand...

*


smeisnotapirate said:


> I can really relate to the above. My parents always told me we were such good children; that they could take us anywhere and that people loved having us come over because we were so well behaved. I imagine it was because we would have gotten into trouble if we acted out. Later in life, teenage years, etc. I was very secretive from my parents because; I really feared their disapproval in a gut wrenching way.
> 
> *Reminding myself of that and validating my fears in the moment seems to help a lot. Mindfulness, you know?*
> I think this is key!


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## Serendipity

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
intentionalmama, you're so right about it being about fear. For my parents, it was fear of looking bad in front of their friends. We were always told (by others) that we were the "perfect kids" when, in reality, we were scared to death of our parents and what they'd do to us if we "stepped out of line."

Whenever I find myself frustrated and angry at DS, it's because I'm afraid of how others are looking at me, afraid that I can't make him stop crying and it will scar him for life, etc. Reminding myself of that and validating my fears in the moment seems to help a lot. Mindfulness, you know?

Oh yes, I have to ask myself a lot "is this about Me or is this about [kid's name]?", "am I parenting out of fear right now or am I truly seeing/hearing [kid's name]?".


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## Devaya

I've not had time to read through the whole thread, just first and last pages, but I'm so glad I found it. I've read U.P. twice and loved it, all of it made so much sense to me esp in the light of my own lack of self esteem as a result of (I think) a very 'conditional' upbringing where my parents made very little attempt to empathically see my side to anything.

But I have to admit that I have really strayed from the path lately without even really realising it, mainly bc I've been struggling with a lot of mood swings, hormonal stuff going on, and feeling stressed out. I feel like many days (most days!), all day just feels like a battle of wills,with a few lovely moments of connection, and reading the last few posts I realise it is fear that has taken me over - fear that my child will get 'out of control', fear of what others will think of me, etc. I think a lot of this is rooted in the fact that a couple of months ago, my sister (who's not a parent and knows zippo about parenting, but somehow her opinion still really m atters to me) was staying with us for 2 months and she really disapproved of my parenting and basically reckoned 'if I bring up a brat, I'll just have to deal with it'. It was very discouraging to me. Also my partner is very much of the 'what the parent says, goes' school of thought, so what it ends up looking like , is mommy being the 'weak pushover' while he has the boundaries.

I did realise that I needed more boundaries, however - my only problem is I tend to go the other way and really insist on things, or say 'no' too much, bc otherwise i feel I am giving in. My 21 mo is extremely 'willful' (even for an average toddler, I feel) and will scream for half an hour after a transition that, no matter how well I try to prepare him for, needs to happen (going into the buggy for a nap/having to leave toys behind at a venue/leaving the park, etc). I also feel like his constant bossing me around and changing his mind every 2 seconds - sit here, no, sit there, no let's go outside (He's very verbal already) - is not the dynamic I want, but yet I also want to respect and support his budding realisation that he can control his environment to some extent. I guess, while I really agree with UP and the studies all made sense to me, I'm still struggling with a background notion, deeply embedded from my own hierarchical, spanking childhood, that while it's good to consider their needs and wishes, children DO at the end of the day need to understand that the parent has the final say. I am also struggling with balancing my own needs with that of my toddler - I find when I was being very 'GD', my own needs were just being suppressed and I'd eventually sort of explode in on myself.

How to undo this conditioning? I'm not even sure. But it helps to talk it out. Thanks for listening.


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
Given that my dd is only 10 months old, which would you recommend: How to Talk So Our Kids Will Listen, or Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves? Or something different?

Both are terrific books, but Aldort will be much more helpful at this age. How to Talk is great for healthy communication & problem solving strategies which would play out better with older children.


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LCBMAX* 
W
How do I handle the flavor of the week which is exuberant hitting and throwing? He laughs when I say "ouch", he tantrums when I take away the hard objects, and he takes no pleasure from hitting the couch cushion or throwing the soft ball when he wanted to do it the other way. I say things like:
Rocks we put down gently, balls we can throw hard!
We touch living things gently, but we can hit the pillows!

How you've responded sounds just like what I do with DS. If you need to step in and remove an object (or your child) for safety's sake, and a tantrum ensues, that's ok. Validating the feelings and being there until he's able to calm down & move on (which children do so much better than adults, especially when they have the freedom to express themselves) will keep you connected & help him process. At this age so much of our interactions are game-like to them and they don't fully get the concept of cause & effect. And yes, there are often these testing phases which do pass. Also, it may seem like you are repeating your responses ad nauseam but that is how they learn--their brains are so new & open and neural pathways are just being formed. Keep the fear in check and trust your child--you are not modeling destructive behavior and he will get it in time.


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## krystyn33

Devaya, sounds like you are very insightful and self-aware! Do you have any mama friends who parent in a similar style? Hanging out with other moms and seeing how other toddlers behave--getting a sense of what is normal for that age & the support of others with similar parenting values helps me a great deal.

Also, I find living up to my parenting ideals is hard when I'm PMSing or run down (and sleep deprived for sure). Caring for ourselves so that we can care for others can be such a challenge! I try to get breaks for myself when I can, although I don't get as many as I'd like, and if I respond in a way to DS that I'm not happy with, I apologize & start over and try to be gentle with myself, knowing I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
Devaya, sounds like you are very insightful and self-aware! Do you have any mama friends who parent in a similar style? Hanging out with other moms and seeing how other toddlers behave--getting a sense of what is normal for that age & the support of others with similar parenting values helps me a great deal.

Also, I find living up to my parenting ideals is hard when I'm PMSing or run down (and sleep deprived for sure). Caring for ourselves so that we can care for others can be such a challenge! I try to get breaks for myself when I can, although I don't get as many as I'd like, and if I respond in a way to DS that I'm not happy with, I apologize & start over and try to be gentle with myself, knowing I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances.

Thanks for the support. I do have a couple of friends who parent in a similar way, and when I'm around other parents in general I find my parenting is much better - it's when I'm at home that I find it really hard! My partner also isn't really on the same page as me and I find being around him almost reinforces the crappier side of my parenting!

I agree it's important to have time for yourself and recharge so you can have something to give. I'm a person who needs lots of time alone and as this doesn't happen, I soon find I am running on empty. fortunately I now do have regular times scheduled in the week when I can do some work or relax on my own while DP takes care of our son. Just having a change of scenery can help me to come back with more patience and appreciation for my child. I need to read Aldorf though - have read stuff on the web that she's written but haven't got her book yet. I feel that the more I read of this sort of thing, the easier it is to 'think' along the lines I would like to. Also to articulate clearly my parenting ideals, bc they seem quite muddled right now!


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## LCBMAX

We are trying a new game of "How gently can you put it down?" We pretend that the object needs to go to sleep, and we say "shhhhhh!" and put it down sooooo soooooo gently. In this way my son enjoys an alternative for throwing, but I am still having trouble not praising this new game, because I actually do still want to manipulate him into the behavior that works better for me and is safer for all. Can't quite help myself. Am trying instead to say "That was very gentle! Now the rock can sleep! Let's get a ball to throw."

So far, so "good", by which I mean I have successfully manipulated him into the behavior I want without it sounding conditional. Sorry, just feeling a little ironic/ exploratory about the whole philosophy right now. Unconditionality, yes, but also guidance toward the behavior that I feel is best. Belief in the child's inherent ability to have compassion, yes, but also downplaying all of our inherent ability to be monsters. So there is still coercion. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this version of coercion, and babies must have guidance/ protection/ "coercion". But I don't want to ignore the reality that the power dynamic between parent/ child is still often about power. I want to keep that really clear so I never lose sight of any sense of powerlessness that he may feel.


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## russianthistle

I am in the midst of the UP book...I have tried to openly discuss this book on a couple of occasions with mainstreamers (and one behaviorist, I later found...) and constantly come into contact/conflict with people over my views about this book. I see exactly what Kohn is saying on a number of different levels but have MUCH trouble putting this into practice with my almost 3 1/2 y.o.

The problem is that MOST people out there can't identify with Kohn philosophy even slightly.

Back to a pp's question...how do you deal w/ the behaviorists out there??????
They all seem so bent on telling me how I'm (and how Kohn is) wrong!


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russianthistle* 
Back to a pp's question...how do you deal w/ the behaviorists out there??????
They all seem so bent on telling me how I'm (and how Kohn is) wrong!

I agree, it is frustrating. I liken it to folks who don't see eye-to-eye with me on breastfeeding, cosleeping or any other parenting practices of mine. The "this is what works for us, please pass the bean dip" classic retort comes to mind. Behaviorism goes into a whole perspective on human nature (kids/people are inherently uncooperative and need to be "trained" to be good) that I'm not likely to share with anyone who buys into it. Such philosophical debates rarely end up with one person convinced that the other's perspective is correct and with parenting stuff emotions--guilt and defensiveness run high. I just don't find that it is worth it. To meet my own needs for encouragement & support I seek friends who parent with similar styles and values.


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## Devaya

I agree that trying to explain it to other people just often is not worth the battle. I tried to talk about it with my sister-in-law when she was going on about reward charts and how they worked for a while but then didn't with her kids, and she said 'But if you don't punish, how do you get them to do what you want?' Which it really all boils down to









I had a lovely moment yesterday when the principle of 'Put the relationship first' was illustrated to me. I was struggling to get household tasks done b/c DS was particularly needy in terms of attention, trying to get him involved/help me wasn't working, I was tired after a late night and felt frustrated. I kept trying to do what I was trying to do, and then suddenly I broke out of that and remembered the Kohn stuff, remembered to think about what needs he had, and just got eye to eye with him and hugged and kissed him. At first he just wanted 'milk' (I've started setting limits on b.feeding recently, including total nightweaning, so this is quite an issue at the moment) and was angry with me, but as I continued to try to just be present with him, forget about trying to take the washing off the line, and just give him my focussed love and attention, he suddenly 'turned' and started kissing me and being very loving towards me. It felt really special, and a few minutes later I WAS able to do my task as he pottered off happily on one of his own 'missions'. Really reinforcing when this stuff happens. Now I really wish I could find a way for DP to actually read the book...he'll often promise to read stuff but never does.


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## russianthistle

Yes, time for DP to read the book, too! Let's get our SO's on board!!!


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## russianthistle

I thought that today's "Daily Groove" was especially pertinent to our current discussion:

:: Don't Explain ::

Being on the leading edge of parenting, you may
find yourself explaining to others *why* you parent
the way you do.

This can be a good thing when someone has
expressed curiosity about it and you're simply
sharing information. But it's better *not* to explain
yourself if you're trying to *justify* your choices.

Justifying gives away your power. It implies that
you need the other person's approval. It undermines
your self-confidence and distances you from your
Inner Guidance.

The "need" to explain and justify your choices is
based on the "need" to be right. But if your parenting
choices are "right," and the other person would parent
differently, then s/he must be "wrong." Once you get
in that right/wrong mode, conflict or interpersonal
tension is inevitable.

Instead of explaining your parenting to others,
silently remind *yourself* that your choices are right
*for you*, and your own approval is all you need.

http://www.dailygroove.net/dont-explain


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## Devaya

I like that 'Daily Groove' too. So often I find myself justifying what I do as a parent, even to my partner!

One thing that's been bothering me, is that I read somewhere ('Magical child'? Something like that) that it's not healthy for a child's development to introduce the force of 'logic' too early, before it's appropriate. That this could inhibit the full development of their creative and imaginative abilities. And my impression (i could be wrong) of UP is that there is a lot of explaining to the child, like, 'we don't hit because ... xyz...or I need us to do this so that....etc.' Surely this would engage logic? Does anyone know about this? it might be a Steiner/Waldorf thing,I'm not sure. But it does concern me. Basically the argument is that children up to a certain age (think it's 6 or 7) need to have the boundaries set clearly and firmly without going into detail, and without negotiating.

I am totally supportive of UP, I hope I'm not throwing a spanner in the works, but I think it's good to understand these things. I think, on the other hand, that punishment and 'reward charts' could have a similar effect -the child has to understand the logic of doing X so he can get Y, or not doing X so he can avoid Y.


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## Serendipity

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
One thing that's been bothering me, is that I read somewhere ('Magical child'? Something like that) that it's not healthy for a child's development to introduce the force of 'logic' too early, before it's appropriate. That this could inhibit the full development of their creative and imaginative abilities. And my impression (i could be wrong) of UP is that there is a lot of explaining to the child, like, 'we don't hit because ... xyz...or I need us to do this so that....etc.' Surely this would engage logic? Does anyone know about this? it might be a Steiner/Waldorf thing,I'm not sure. But it does concern me. Basically the argument is that children up to a certain age (think it's 6 or 7) need to have the boundaries set clearly and firmly without going into detail, and without negotiating.

I am totally supportive of UP, I hope I'm not throwing a spanner in the works, but I think it's good to understand these things. I think, on the other hand, that punishment and 'reward charts' could have a similar effect -the child has to understand the logic of doing X so he can get Y, or not doing X so he can avoid Y.

Interesting. I like to hear more about why they think logic inhibits creativity. My daughter is almost 4 and understand a lot of things from a logic POV. I don't see that it has inhibited her creativity. My son, from the time he could talk has asked WHY???? and been very sensitive to things being arbitrary.


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## russianthistle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
One thing that's been bothering me, is that I read somewhere ('Magical child'? Something like that) that it's not healthy for a child's development to introduce the force of 'logic' too early, before it's appropriate. That this could inhibit the full development of their creative and imaginative abilities. And my impression (i could be wrong) of UP is that there is a lot of explaining to the child, like, 'we don't hit because ... xyz...or I need us to do this so that....etc.' Surely this would engage logic? Does anyone know about this? it might be a Steiner/Waldorf thing,I'm not sure. But it does concern me. Basically the argument is that children up to a certain age (think it's 6 or 7) need to have the boundaries set clearly and firmly without going into detail, and without negotiating.

I am totally supportive of UP, I hope I'm not throwing a spanner in the works, but I think it's good to understand these things. I think, on the other hand, that punishment and 'reward charts' could have a similar effect -the child has to understand the logic of doing X so he can get Y, or not doing X so he can avoid Y.

nak
It is a Waldorf thing, you are right. I've wondered the same thing...I would imagine (though I have no actual information on whether this is truly the case) that Kohn is not Waldorf.

I really dig Waldorf, and this, too concerns me...

Interesting point.


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## mckennasmomma

I'm just about to finish UP.

The chapter called Choices for Children ends with some exercises. I hate to say it but I was really stumped by the very important part of finding UP solutions in exercise 1. So, I thought I'd retype it out here and see what y'all would suggest (sorry my comma only works part of the time!):

EX A "Your child resists going to bed, first pretending not to hear you announce that it's bedtime, then begging for a few more minutes, then insisting that there's only one last little-bitty thing that needs to be finished, then arguing that it's not fair to have to go to bed so early and finally just refusing in an angry voice."

EX B: Lately, your child has begun to adopt an insulting tone in conversations with you-or perhaps with a sibling.

coming up with conventional doing-to responses was pretty easy (threatening to take away privileges, time outs, etc.). but working with alternatives was more challenging. what are some of your ideas?


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## Serendipity

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
EX A "Your child resists going to bed, first pretending not to hear you announce that it's bedtime, then begging for a few more minutes, then insisting that there's only one last little-bitty thing that needs to be finished, then arguing that it's not fair to have to go to bed so early and finally just refusing in an angry voice."

EX B: Lately, your child has begun to adopt an insulting tone in conversations with you-or perhaps with a sibling.

coming up with conventional doing-to responses was pretty easy (threatening to take away privileges, time outs, etc.). but working with alternatives was more challenging. what are some of your ideas?

Well for Example A...I would accept they weren't ready for bed but I'll pretend it's something else that I need her to do.

"How much should I count to until you're ready?"

"Would you like to hop like bunnies or fly like birds to the van?"

"How many more jumps on the trampoline will be enough?"

"Shall we use your pink toothbrush or the Dora one?"

"Do you want mom or dad to put your shoes on?"

Example B-

"I don't really like the way that sounded, but I know you can say it nicer next time."


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## intentionalmama

mckennasmomma said:


> *EX A "Your child resists going to bed, first pretending not to hear you announce that it's bedtime, then begging for a few more minutes, then insisting that there's only one last little-bitty thing that needs to be finished, then arguing that it's not fair to have to go to bed so early and finally just refusing in an angry voice."*
> 
> One of us dh or I actually lie down with our son and when he is asleep or relaxed enough we will then get up. He has never really had a set bedtime. As we homeschool - he doesn't have to get up early for school - so we are fairly relaxed about bedtime. If he is really not tired, we usually just let him stay up longer. If he is saying he doesn't want to go to sleep, I will usually just say It's time, with a smile and head to the bedroom, and offer to read him a story (often with the lights out - one that I have made up) or see if he wants a massage. This usually works. If he just can't sleep, I have sometimes gotten up to do some meditation time in front of a candle, he will sometimes follow me and just fall asleep curled up against me on the couch. I must admit, even though these times can be late - I love him being near me. I then just carry him to bed.
> 
> EX B: Lately, your child has begun to adopt an insulting tone in conversations with you-or perhaps with a sibling.
> 
> Again he is six, so I would ask him what's going on. ie) It sounds like you are angry at me.. If he says no, I would say, well, when you say (bla bla bla) I feel disrespected or whatever it is.
> So I guess basically I would want to find out why he was speaking this way to me or the other person; and then deal with the underlying reason.
> If it was something he had heard and he thought it was cool, I would want to let him know that it Ie) hurt my feelings, wasn't a nice thing to say, was disrespectful - or whatever my concern about it was.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russianthistle* 
nak
It is a Waldorf thing, you are right. I've wondered the same thing...I would imagine (though I have no actual information on whether this is truly the case) that Kohn is not Waldorf.

I really dig Waldorf, and this, too concerns me...

Interesting point.

I resonate with Waldorf stuff a lot too - not all of it, but the concepts of being in tune with the seasons, surrounding the child with natural beautiful things, and stuff about giving children time to be children makes a lot of sense to me. I feel a lot of my creativity was killed by early schooling, etc. I also get the impression Kohn doesn't swing that way! But am prob getting OT now. If anyone else has a view on reconciling the two, that'd be great!

Another thing I am concerned about is school....I mean, how many schools are actually going to not have grades, as Kohn suggests, and not be 'conditional' in any way? I would love to homeschool but don't know if it'll happen since DP is very much against it (I have another 3 years to try convince him!)


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serendipity* 
Well for Example A...I would accept they weren't ready for bed but I'll pretend it's something else that I need her to do.

"How much should I count to until you're ready?"

"Would you like to hop like bunnies or fly like birds to the van?"

"How many more jumps on the trampoline will be enough?"

"Shall we use your pink toothbrush or the Dora one?"

"Do you want mom or dad to put your shoes on?"

Example B-

"I don't really like the way that sounded, but I know you can say it nicer next time."

I also struggled with those example questions at the time, and these are great! Thanks.


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## russianthistle

:
I like what you've offered!


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## LeahC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 

So, what do you do from a UP perspective when one child hurts the other intentionally?


This is what I am struggling with as well. Henry will flat out be mean spirited towards Evelyn. Most times she isn't anywhere near him- just playing happily by herself with some toy and he will walk over and rip whatever she had in her hands right out. Other times she will be trying to play with him and he gets frustrated with her and he will push her away and or hit her.


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## mckennasmomma

I think all you can really do is start talking about feelings, asking the child to reflect on how it would make them feel is someone did the hurtful thing to them, say things like, "the look on your sister's face looks like you hurt her. how would it make you feel if someone took the toy from you?"


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## russianthistle

Nearly through w/ the book...
I find that it makes sense that there's little conrete advice. I guess I really like that about Kohn...he can't tell us anything direct, because he's not in our situation.

This thread is a good way to help with the "how-to's."


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## catters

I'm reading this book now and giving my DH the "abridged" version of it as I get through parts.
So much of it makes sense, but I am, like an early poster said, down with the philosophical aspect of it, but implementing the practices of it is a lot harder. I was definitely not raised UP so my natural tendencies tend to be frustration followed by anger when I run into constant challenges from DS. Who, by the way, is not two until next month, so gee, don't I feel like a crap parent already.







Anyway, I'll be reading this thread over and over again.


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## JolieC

Oh I'm so thrilled to find this thread! I am almost finished UP and it resonates so deeply with me, but at the same time I am having such a hard time puting things into practice with our newly 3 year old twins. WE're in the midst of a bunch of upheaval and things are fairly stressful too (we are moving *home* to NZ after 2 years expatting overseas in trying situations, temporary accommodation, 99% of our stuff in a container somewhere on the surface of the Indian Ocean, mama and Daddy a bit stressed out from it all and trying to get everything sorted and on and on) so that does not help matters, nor does my being tired and rundown. But at the end of the day, Cole and Imogen are more in need of my UP now than ever, and I need ot focus on ways to make that happen. Thank you thank you thank you for giving me some lightbulb moments ...about how the important thing is the *relationship*, my attitude, my fear of how I am perceived by others, esp my mother (who's not exactly known for holding back on her opinions. Or tolerance for anything other than trad, strict parenting), and making sure we *all* get our love cup filled.
Oh yay, just these 5 pages have really invigorated me...even if I did have to stay up till 1am on this crappy connection to get it. Oh so totally worth it!!!


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catters* 
I'm reading this book now and giving my DH the "abridged" version of it as I get through parts.
So much of it makes sense, but I am, like an early poster said, down with the philosophical aspect of it, but implementing the practices of it is a lot harder. I was definitely not raised UP so my natural tendencies tend to be frustration followed by anger when I run into constant challenges from DS. Who, by the way, is not two until next month, so gee, don't I feel like a crap parent already.







Anyway, I'll be reading this thread over and over again.

Don't beat yourself up! My LO is only 21 1/2 months and I've totally been feeling like a crap parent lately. I think though that this stage can be as hard as any other, particularly because the LO's understanding and verbal communication is not that great yet, so they can have ways of expressing their needs that are challenging for parents. Reading your post made me realise that trying to UP when you've not been raised UP (ie prob most of us!) really necessitates a drastic re-wiring of one's synapses







and is not for the faint-hearted. I think we need to appreciate ourselves for making the effort, even though so often (for me at least) it's an ideal rather than a reality in every moment.

I'm still really struggling with finding the 'gap' between what happens, and responding (reacting, really!) to it. I feel frustrated with myself for this. Lately DS has been waking up at about 2 am and then not settling properly for up to 2 hours. We co-sleep and I'm often frozen in uncomfortable position for ages, unable to go back to sleep, only to have him move again and it all starts all over. I'll be patient for about an hour and then I start to lose it a bit. It's so hard in the middle of the night!


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## russianthistle

I'm curious to know what others do for a flailing three year old who's melting down because he's tired...but also going about the house, kicking and screaming and throwing ANYTHING in his path...we had one of those meltdowns last night...and I fared well for a bit...at least made it through the tantrum part, but then lost it when he wouldn't go to sleep after two hours...two hours...

The two hours included nursing for a bit...then reading stories, then lying quietly, then...then he was thirsty, then needed his daddy, then.....you get the picture.

We have a new baby, and I'm sure that that is, essentially, where some of this comes from...but how do I escape the "if, then" kind of crap that seems to automatically fly out of my mouth when I get trapped in situations like these?


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## ShadowMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russianthistle* 
I'm curious to know what others do for a flailing three year old who's melting down because he's tired...but also going about the house, kicking and screaming and throwing ANYTHING in his path...we had one of those meltdowns last night...and I fared well for a bit...at least made it through the tantrum part, but then lost it when he wouldn't go to sleep after two hours...two hours...

The two hours included nursing for a bit...then reading stories, then lying quietly, then...then he was thirsty, then needed his daddy, then.....you get the picture.

We have a new baby, and I'm sure that that is, essentially, where some of this comes from...but how do I escape the "if, then" kind of crap that seems to automatically fly out of my mouth when I get trapped in situations like these?

In that kind of situation I think you look at the fact that he's tired, he's not in control of his actions, and he is feeling bad inside (whether from tiredness, the new baby, etc.) which is making him act bad on the outside.

That said, after that sort of evening, any parent is not going to be at their best. You just do the best you can to get through things and then afterward, when you've had some sleep







then it's maybe a good time to think about what caused it, what he might need to help him avoid it in the future, etc.

When my DS was that age, he had several evening meltdowns and as a single parent, I just did my best to get through them. The "if, then" wouldn't have helped anyway. I think that is just a habit. Maybe you can talk about his feelings... "You feel bad right now. You're really mad! You wanted daddy to come in here. You need daddy right now. You need some attention right now." etc.

That is something that did not help me right away, but once I got the hang of it (talking about feelings) has really done a lot to defuse his anger, to know that I understand what he's feeling and have it echoed to him.

HTH, mama. There used to be a large community of parents here who were more the unconditional parenting sorts, and they seem to have dwindled down quite a bit. I miss that, it's where I got all of my ideas from!


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## russianthistle

Thank you, Shadow.
This is what I try to do...but, like many, I tend to lose patience.

I'm working on teaching him to breathe deep...and perhaps a better time to work on this is not during the tantrum (or shortly thereafter), but, rather, in the midst of a fine beautiful day. I think we're going to start some yogic activity or at least stretching and breathing.

I really struggle with my UP language. This is what I find most challenging.


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## smeisnotapirate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *russianthistle* 
I really struggle with my UP language. This is what I find most challenging.


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## momofmine

yes, I feel like it has taken me years to re-wire my own programming too. Still working on it in fact. But like a PP said, that "if, then" stuff rarely works anyway. I tried it with DS1 and it just escalated things.

I have found that even at 3 and younger, the validating stuff mentioned above does help. I remember one time my child was actually only 2, and we had been somewhere as a family, but my DH had driven separately, having just come from work. When we left, I took the kids with me and DH drove in his car. We were all going home. We started driving and DS started crying and having a bit of a tantrum, and I didn't know what was up. He wasn't too verbal at that point yet, and I just guessed and said, Did you want to ride with Daddy? And I just validated, "oh you really wanted to ride with Daddy didn't you" etc. And he settled down immediately, but started right back up again several minutes later. I repeated the same thing, he settled, went through that cycle about 4 times on the ride home, but each wave was less intense than the first. It was amazing to see how he reacted to just feeling heard and acknowledged. I don't think it works as well with my other ds, he seems to escalate his feeling sometimes when I try validating.


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## russianthistle

Yes, my son seems to escalate, tantrum-wise, when I validate...or it doesn't seem to make a difference. I still do it while working to sort through what the problem is. I think that the validation is important, even if I don't always get the "right" results.


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## mckennasmomma

interestingly i am now reading "raising our children raising ourselves" and right in the first chapter she talks about validating, how important it is, AND how it can often escalate things at first but ultimately leads to better outcomes.


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## madsommer

I'm about a third of the way through the book and love it. It totally resonates with me and it reminded of all those things that I had to discover on my own through 5 years of therapy









Now I'm trying really hard to implement, but it's hard not to revert to the tactics that my parents' used. I find myself cringing and apologizing a lot more now. And being tired and pregnant doesn't help me much with dealing with the tantrums of my 18mo old.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
Another thing I'll add is that the social pressure to actively "discipline" (control) children can be strong during the toddler years, since we deal with many socially unacceptable behaviors like hitting, not sharing, etc.

Yes! This!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
Also, I find living up to my parenting ideals is hard when I'm PMSing or run down (and sleep deprived for sure). Caring for ourselves so that we can care for others can be such a challenge!

This has been my challenge lately. I'm in my 3rd trimester now and the fatigue is really getting to me and I realize how badly it affects my ability to deal with issues.


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## rajouta

I just started UP, subbing.


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## Devaya

Validating during a tantrum (and there've been several a day, lately!) has been helping me, at least some of the time it seems that DS registers that I'm letting him have his emotions, and he will even pause briefly before the next onslaught. At least it's helping ME to feel I have something to 'do' rather than swing into being fearful/angry/despairing, and either walking away or being a bit harsh in my tone.

I could relate to the evening you described, russianthistle, with tantrum followed by bedtime taking 2 hours...my whole past week has been like that...and I really do feel as if I deserve a medal by the end of it if I've kept my cool...I just keep trying to let go of expectations, and accept what's happening, even if it's maddening...and for me in particular, I've found letting go of a set expectation for what I'll achieve in the evening, is the only way to survive. I was getting stressed out b/c I thought I'd do all these things, and then it would be practically MY bedtime by the time he was finally settled. One night he even went to bed at 11pm! !

anyway,I have written out the 13 principles of UP and put them on the fridge, and that will hopefully help remind us on a day to day basis. My partner (who I'm currently planning to separate from, but still want to co-parent with) was reading it through today and asking me for clarification on points. SO much more effective than getting him to read the book,although that's also on his bedside table... you never know!


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## madsommer

Anyone have any suggestions for child who keeps throwing food on the floor? For awhile I tried to make DS eat all of his meals and snacks at the table...but now he's not so keen on it. So I let him down when he asks, and sometimes I'll let him take his plate or bowl of food to another part of the house. The problem is that then he dumps it all over the floor in play. Sometimes he'll eat it off the floor and sometimes it just stays there. Our apartment is wall-to-wall carpet so it's getting quiet messy.

I've actually done pretty well with not getting so angry any more, but I do keep falling into the trap of taking the food away. It's very frustrating and I'm not sure how to deal with it.


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## simplify4balance

I completely agree with the UP ideas... but in practice, it seems that I just have ended up with kids who won't do anything I ask of them.
I think I should be able to ask DD (29 months) to "come over here, please" and she should comply.
I am not a control freak- I just think that she is old enough to respond reasonably to simple, reasonable requests, right?

She chooses not to comply to any request... and I feel left out of control and I hate it. I can't stand engaging in "If you don't come here... I will do X to you." so that type of parenting doesn't work... it just escalates into bigger and uglier consequences... Ultimately I have to threaten to spank, and occasionally follow through. Later... I always feel depressed and out of control.
Sad Mamma.


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## krystyn33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplify4balance* 
I think I should be able to ask DD (29 months) to "come over here, please" and she should comply.

Honestly, I think we'd all be happier in this world if we could abandon the word "should."

At 31 months DS doesn't always come to me or follow simple requests when asked. Engaging cooperation from him often takes more effort. Developmentally he's not quite ready to be considerate in the sense of truly understanding & caring about other people's perspectives & feelings. He's working on it--it is one of the major tasks of this age.

Coercive punishment/reward strategies will give you the sense of control that you expressed that you feel is lacking. But the motivation behind the compliant behavior is external and limited. Children will do what they want when not in your presence or when they think they can get away with it when these measures are relied upon to "manage" their behavior. Internal motivation takes more time and really isn't fully under our parental control. We plant seeds, model and communicate our feelings and needs and have to trust that when our children are able to "get it" they will.


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## bronxmom

I'm so glad to see this thread and hope it keeps going. I'm just finishing re-reading this book and have found it so helpful and re-grounding. I have a 10 year old and life with her has been more challenging in the last year. She switched schools and was pretty miserable. That, combined I think with developmental stuff, has made things more difficult. She was/is having trouble sleeping and I would spend literally hours each night trying to get her to bed. The level of frustration/screaming picked up in our house and her relationship with my partner (her step-dad) began to deteriorate. I began to question my previous parenting up to this point - had I not set enough limits? was co-sleeping so long part of the problem? etc This combined with just the exhaustion of trying to deal with a growing but unhappy child began to make me impatient and to strain our relationship. I literally think I became more frustrated and even emotionally harsh at times that really scared and hurt her. In the past week I think I've really re-routed and connected with the kind of parent I want to be - and I do think our relationship is much stronger again.

Here are my biggest issues:
1) Can a step-parent parent unconditionally? My partner and I agree on a lot and he really loves my daughter. We've been together 6 years. But he acts in conditional ways SO much without even realizing it. He and she are locked in battle and it's really discouraging - and he's really of the "kids need limits" style of thinking. Not punitive at all and less controlling than a lot of parents I know - but still not in line with me. And because he's not her biological parent I think he needs to work harder to gain her trust; but it's harder because she does not have the same base relationship with him that she has with me. We are in stepfamily counseling and have our first appt in like 6 weeks this week so I'm going to raise it there. But trying to figure it out. In particular, I think the stuff about parents presenting a united front is an issue; I def don't do it and I hate the idea of backing him up when i think he's being unreasonable. But it def leads to arguments.

2) One of the key points of the book is the importance of modeling and helping our kids think about how others are affected by our actions and to do things for intrinsic rather than extrinsic reasons. I'm finding this very difficult. I realize that I often am focused on whether people appreciate the things I do; or myself wanting acknowledgment/praise rather than being secure myself in things; or being conditional in my love for others; or expressing frustration with other people and not being generous. In other words, I think I'm not modelling for my daughter what I want her to become. I'm thinking I really need to focus on my own actions.

These are just some of my initial thoughts. I'm really excited and want to hear more from people. Especially curious if there are other parents of older children out there. I feel like I handled the toddler/preschool years great and was pretty confident and empathetic and we really avoided a lot of power battles. But now that she's older and "should" be able to control herself more, be more considerate, etc, I'm finding it harder. It's also harder to know what's developmentally appropriate and what's not at this age - there's so little written on these years.


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## MarineWife

I'm just joining. I don't have time to go back and read all the previous posts so please excuse me if I drag old stuff back up. I'll try to read from here on out for a while before I say much so I can get the gist of what's going on here.


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## smeisnotapirate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplify4balance* 
I completely agree with the UP ideas... but in practice, it seems that I just have ended up with kids who won't do anything I ask of them.
I think I should be able to ask DD (29 months) to "come over here, please" and she should comply.
I am not a control freak- I just think that she is old enough to respond reasonably to simple, reasonable requests, right?

She chooses not to comply to any request... and I feel left out of control and I hate it. I can't stand engaging in "If you don't come here... I will do X to you." so that type of parenting doesn't work... it just escalates into bigger and uglier consequences... Ultimately I have to threaten to spank, and occasionally follow through. Later... I always feel depressed and out of control.
Sad Mamma.

Disclaimer: I only have a 14 m/o, so I still have a LONG way on my parenting journey.









I try to be very unconditional with my son and with my students (I teach 2yo-16yo music), though, and I've found that what works best is redefining "reasonable" and "simple" and "control."

When I feel out of control over something, it's because I think that what I need (and am not getting) is more important than what the other (son, student) wants. Oftentimes, I feel like I need it NOW, too. Which makes things worse.

Here's an example. DS is walking and loves walking to the car with me. He points out all the weeds in the sidewalk, picks up little pebbles, touches the flowers as he passes by - and meanwhile, I'm telling him to come on and FREAKING OUT because if he doesn't move it, I'm going to be late for my lessons. So I grab him (screaming, of course) and go to the car - my lessons are more important than his flower-picking, right?

So here's where I start to think - what's the real problem here? The REAL problem is that I'm not giving us enough time to get to the car - where both DS and I can get there happy and uncoerced (is that a word?







). If I started out just 5 minutes earlier, DS can go rock collecting and flower-touching and neither of us will be upset (or more importantly, to me, LATE).

It's really taken me looking at the reasons why I am getting upset over things, but I've gotten much more unconditional because of it. Now, if it's safety - that's a nonnegotiable. Car seats (which DS HATES) are nonnegotiable. Holding hands or being carried across the street is nonnegotiable. Most everything else can be worked around so that I don't feel "out of control" and he doesn't feel slighted or coerced.

So let's turn it around. DD comes to you and says "mommy, come here." Do you drop everything every time she says that? Most likely, you don't. You might finish what you're doing, say "just a second," or what have you. Why is it that she should be expected to come when you call, but you don't have to abide by the same rules? Not a perfect example, of course, but maybe with the example you gave of her not coming when you call her - maybe she is seeing you doing the same through modeling, or maybe she is using her judgement that finishing what she is doing is more important than coming to you right when you call her.

Also, remember that your child is a different person. It sounds silly, but do you feel like you have control over your DP? If that sounds strange, then maybe it should be strange for you to want control over your DD. If your DP can choose to come when you ask - then maybe your DD can as well. As long as it's done respectfully. Because respect (in my mind) is what this whole unconditional parenting thing is about.


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## apple_juice

Hi lovely mamas and papas

I am in the middle of UP and I am wanting to join you here. I have a 19 month old son and I am expecting in March. I am having a little difficulty implementing UP in our lives and hope to learn from you. I live in an area where punitive discipline is the norm and am having a lot of trouble going to playgroups lately where kids are being harshly parented (against the rule of the centre). Anyway I was wondering if I could get some tips on a few situations I have.

My son has taken to kicking while being changed and he thinks it is funny. I tried saying OW! That hurts biut he laughs more. I am only concerned about stopping this quickly because I am pregnant and he frequently gets me in the belly and kicks quite hard and I am worried about him hurting me or the baby. he never kicks my DH when he changes him.

I am also wondering how to implement UP in situations where he needs to stop doing something. He needs to stop hurting our dog. He has taken to pinching her ears really hard until she cries. She loves him and lets himget away with a lot and I never realise he is hurting her until she cries. Today I caught him pinching her ears and she was in obvious painbut didnt cry.

Any other young toddler strategies would be helpful too.


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## LCBMAX

Hi Lovely Apple Juice -
I'm there with you on the thing with hurting me being comedy for my 18 month old son--

I hope someone wise will contribute here, because we're a little stuck. I can't say "ow" because that's the punchline to the joke, so now I feel so manipulative: I make my face look pained and sad and I say "that really hurt mama's body -- can you make me feel better with a gentle kiss?" which he does, happily, but it's still all a game. maybe that's appropriate for this age?

In general, I'm trying hard to focus on the consequences of actions for others, and I sound so forced at the playground, but I figure I'm practicing for later, and like with any new language, my fluency will improve. "When you touch your friends so gently, they feel more comfortable playing near you, it looks like that's fun."

I need this thread - thank you all.


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LCBMAX* 
Hi Lovely Apple Juice -
I'm there with you on the thing with hurting me being comedy for my 18 month old son--

I hope someone wise will contribute here, because we're a little stuck. I can't say "ow" because that's the punchline to the joke, so now I feel so manipulative: I make my face look pained and sad and I say "that really hurt mama's body -- can you make me feel better with a gentle kiss?" which he does, happily, but it's still all a game. maybe that's appropriate for this age?

In general, I'm trying hard to focus on the consequences of actions for others, and I sound so forced at the playground, but I figure I'm practicing for later, and like with any new language, my fluency will improve. "When you touch your friends so gently, they feel more comfortable playing near you, it looks like that's fun."

I need this thread - thank you all.

Yes, that sounds like it's definitely fun for him if you go through all that every time! For a 5 year old hitting me, I would talk to him about it at a calm time, when it wasn't happening, about alternate things he could do instead, and come up with some kind of reminder that we could use when it happens. But for an 18-month old, I would prevent when I could, and redirect when I can't. I would not say anything unless it was something very brief, like, :No, please don't hit me" or "please be gnetle" but I would be very brief, matter-of -fact, not much emotion, and quickly move on to something else.

For the kicking while diaper changing, that's a little harder, because you are having to make him lay down and do something. If he doesn't do it with your DH, I would think he has just gotten into the idea of it being a game with you too. Can you change him standing up when it's just pee? Can you give him something to do with his hands that is new and novel and you only bring out for diaper changes? I think largely ignoring it and trying to get the diaper changed as fast as you can is likely the best strategy.

For the dog, I would prevent the child from hurting the dog as often as I could, and if it does happen, I would just say a brief, matter-of-fact sentence, something short like "please be gentle to the dog". I personally would not leave the child unsupervised with the dog at all, and put the dog in a crate when you can't be right there, at least for now.


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## MarineWife

I agree with what's been said about the 18mo old kicking and pinching the dog. First, I do think it's quite age appropriate. Baby is learning that s/he can control some of his/her environment by causing reactions from others.

My now 2yo went through a phase when he did that a lot while I was changing him. He thought it was fun. He laughed and giggled the entire time. He doesn't do it so much anymore. As much as possible I would just stop with the changing. Obviously, I'd get the dirty diaper off and clean him up but I wouldn't continue to fight over getting another diaper on and/or getting clothes back on. I have a bunch of nudists in my home. However, if my kids don't want to wear clothes, that is their choice. They are their bodies.

I think it's good to say that it hurts and/or you don' like being hurt but not react loudly. In other words, saying, "Ow!" might get more of the same because it's such a big response. I do say, "That hurt and I don't like being hurt," to all my children (18, 5 and 2 years old) whenever they do anything that hurts me even if they aren't meaning to hurt me.

I'm torn on the idea of asking Baby if s/he can make Mommy feel better. I don't like it because it's not Baby's responsibility to make Mommy happy. On the other hand, it might be teaching Baby compassion. I don't know.









With the dog, I would not leave baby with dog unsupervised. Whenever Baby does do something hurtful to the dog, I would immediately remove Baby from the situation while saying shortly and simply that hurting the dog, just like people, is not OK. I'm not sure how that language jives with UP but I don't know any other way to say it. It's been a while since I read the book. I understand the reasoning behind putting the dog in a crate to protect the dog but I'm not sure that would teach Baby what s/he needs to learn about that situation.


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## smeisnotapirate

My 14mo son is doing the same thing. I very matter-of-factly say "no" and push his hand away and distract him to a special "changing" toy, with that "OMG, THIS IS THE COOLEST TOY EVER!!!!!" tone of voice. It's working so far, but I'm not sure how long it will stay that way. Make whatever you're doing so much more fun than your reaction from him hitting you, and do it before he has the chance to hit.

As for our dog, when Toby hits her (or his favorite is to dive bomb her when she's sleeping in the living room







), I remove him from the situation with a "no. we're nice to dogs" and I spend a little extra loving on the pup. Sometimes we both sit together and give her pets and scratches afterwards. Not sure how UP it is, but our dog is very special to us and has feelings too - I wouldn't put her in the crate (remove her from her pack) because the baby was acting inappropriate towards her. I think it would convey the wrong message to the dog, honestly. If he's acting super-crazy and has done something inappropriate more than once to her in a short period, I may put her in the kitchen behind the gate with an extra-special toy until he calms down. But our crate is for sleeping or for safety when we're not there, so I'd rather keep crating a positive experience for her. I don't like secluding her away from us when I can keep her safe in other ways.


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## Devaya

I've just been reading 'Raising our children, raising ourselves' and it's really helping me to understand the UP principles more fully, and find ways to apply them. I'd highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it yet. In the past week since I've been reading it, I feel as if I've turned a page in my relationship with DS where I'm truly connecting with him and treating him fully as another human being, not just 'my child' etc...and that is transforming the way we do everything. I'm also making more time to play with him and be one-on-one with him, which in turn is reducing his frustration in other areas.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I've just been reading 'Raising our children, raising ourselves'

I read this book before I read UP. I liked it better because it put things in more practical terms. I wish I had read UP first because then I probably would've gotten more out of it.


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## mckennasmomma

I'm reading Raising our Children right now as well. I actually like UP better (think it is such a well-written book) but I am finding that RoC is a very nice companion book as it expands on the UP principles in more practical/example ways.


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## MarineWife

Do you all get this daily email? The Daily Groove

I get and love it. I read it every morning when I first get up and it really helps me to make sure I'm focused on being the parent I want to be and affirms that what I am doing is the right thing. Sometimes I even print them out and post them around my house. I signed my dh up for it, too, and sometimes pass them along to other family and friends if I think the message is especially important.


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## Devaya

I get the Daily Groove too, it's great. I must admit it often didn't make much sense to me - like, 'yeah right' would pass through my head on reading it sometimes - but since reading 'Raising our children' it makes a lot more sense now, and I get a lot out of it. I also prefer the way UP is written, but the practical examples in 'Raising our children' are very valuable.

Having a fairly good week, but as am currently splitting from my partner (it's been 2 weeks since the final decision, but we still have to live together for a time), my stress and anxiety is coming out a bit in my parenting. It's so hard to just focus and be patient when there's all this background stuff. But I'm glad I have the concepts and tools to come back to.

A specific question: any recommendations for what to do about slightly dangerous eating behaviour, like my son (22 mo) waving a fork around dangerously close to his eye or to others? I know taking the fork away would be punitive (he doesn't accept a substitution of a spoon or whatever, it just leads to a tantrum and then no eating takes place), but sometimes I do do that as a safety measure. I'm not sure what he's trying to communicate with this action, it seems like he has a look of anger on his face sometimes as he's doing it. In general, I need help re-directing dangerous behaviour like throwing hard toys when he's angry. I want to validate and allow his emotions, but don't want to make it seem like it's ok to do that, you know?


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## mckennasmomma

devaya, your relationship ending must be so hard.









specifically for the fork issue they do make forks with rounded tips for little ones. could you try that? i know it doesn't address the anger stuff, but might be one piece of the answer.

marinewife, thanks for the daily groove suggestion. i signed up for it!


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## harrietsmama

Hello! I have only briefly skimmed this thread, just found it! I wish I had seen it a long time ago. So, having read the list of 13 ideals, this is pretty much how I try to parent. I have some book ideas, but in the immediate, I'd like some suggestions. I tried searching the thread and it didn't pull up anything that seemed to match my search - which doesn't mean it's not there. Ok, on to my point - my son is going through such a tough time, and from a few things I've read, it sounds as if this is a typical stage of development. He's mad at the world, nothing if fair, this is the worst day ever, no one likes me, everyone is so mean to me (yesterday his sister tried to give him a picture she drew him and it quickly dissolved into this exact statement)

Have you had success in making this time easier? I've tried helping him see the choices he has in play and other situations







this smiley is so fitting for him right now. I'm feeling at a loss, everything that used to work to help him navigate life is just suddenly ineffective. We have a date night planned this week to go bowling, I think that will be good.

Right now it really feels like he is running the house and everyone is walking on eggshells, we've always had a pretty communicative, balanced, consensual? environment and it just flew out the window. Right now I think 2 was sooooo much easier!


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## MarineWife

I agree that UP is probably a better book for getting the theory better. UP should probably be read before "Raising Our Children..." I read that one before UP so when I started UP a lot of it was redundant and I felt like I already had practical applications of the ideas from "Raising Our Children..." so I just skimmed UP. Anyway, my point was that, if you are going to read both books, I suggest reading UP first and then "Raising Our Children..." Naomi Aldort has another book, too, I think. I can't remember the title but it might be a good follow up to UP and "Raising Our Children..." (I need to figure out an abbreviation for that book.)

harrietsmama ~ A lot of what your boy is experiencing could be related to hormones. The hormones start changing long before we see any outside evidence of puberty and that can certainly affect one's mood. Have you tried just listening to and accepting what your ds is saying without offering any help or suggestions? For me, most times when I'm fussing or complaining to my dh he tries to fix it for me because he's a guy and that's what they do but all I really want is someone to listen to me, give me a hug and say they understand.

You don't need to validate anyone's feelings because that gives the impression that feelings need validation and they don't. We all feel what we feel. There's no right or wrong to it. It just is what it is. Kids know this and it doesn't occur to them that something is wrong until we adults interfere.

If you don't know what to say, just repeate back what he has said. Things may escalate at first but that is a good thing. That means your ds is getting all of his feelings out without any interference. The sooner he does that, the sooner he can move on.

Example:

Boy: Everyone hates me!

Mom: You feel like everyone hates you!

Boy: Yeah! No one is ever nice to me! No one ever wants to play with me! (crying very loudly. I'm not sure if a 7yo boy does this but I know my 5yo does.)

Mom: You feel that no one is nice to you or wants to play you.

Boy: Yeah! It's not fair!

Ok, that's all I could come up with for now. That doesn't really end the conversation and it would probably go on but maybe it gives you some ideas of how to respond. It may sound kind of silly because it seems obvious to us adults but it's not obvious to kids, I guess. That's what I do when I don't know how to respond. I don't react. I just repeat back in a very neutral tone whatever the child has said.

Has anyone read, "How to Stop Backtalk"? I don't think that's the full title and I can't remember the authors off the top of my head. I just started it and I'm not sure how it works with UP. I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't mesh. It has some examples of practical or logical consequences for rude/disrespectful behavior but it seems sort of punishing to me. I think I'm a bit on the permissive side so I may be misunderstanding both books. For example, if a child complains in a rude or nasty tone about dinner, the book suggests telling the child to leave the table and remove herself from wherever the family is while they are eating. Don't allow any ifs, ands or buts and ignore the child's pleas that she is hungry later. I can totally understand that sometimes it is necessary to remove a child from a situation if she is being very disruptive so that things can't get done but I don't like the idea of ignoring the child when she says she's hungry.


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Has anyone read, "How to Stop Backtalk"? I don't think that's the full title and I can't remember the authors off the top of my head. I just started it and I'm not sure how it works with UP. I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't mesh. It has some examples of practical or logical consequences for rude/disrespectful behavior but it seems sort of punishing to me. I think I'm a bit on the permissive side so I may be misunderstanding both books. For example, if a child complains in a rude or nasty tone about dinner, *the book suggests telling the child to leave the table and remove herself from wherever the family is while they are eating.* Don't allow any ifs, ands or buts and ignore the child's pleas that she is hungry later. I can totally understand that sometimes it is necessary to remove a child from a situation if she is being very disruptive so that things can't get done but I don't like the idea of ignoring the child when she says she's hungry.

The bolded part sounds to me like love withdrawal. I think I would try questioning the child about why they are upset and if there is a change that can be made to that meal to make it acceptable (maybe it needs salt? remove the bell peppers? add some barbecue sauce?) if all else fails, maybe there is something else they can think of that they would rather have for dinner, or maybe you can let them know ahead of time what you are fixing so you can make changes before the dinner is finalized.

as for the tone of voice the child used I would let them know how it came across to me and that I don't like to be spoken to in such a way or that in this family we use nicer words with each other.


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## harrietsmama

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
harrietsmama ~ A lot of what your boy is experiencing could be related to hormones. The hormones start changing long before we see any outside evidence of puberty and that can certainly affect one's mood.

This makes sense

Quote:

Have you tried just listening to and accepting what your ds is saying without offering any help or suggestions?
Hmmm, not as distincly as you have it laid out, I will give this approach a try

Quote:

For me, most times when I'm fussing or complaining to my dh he tries to fix it for me because he's a guy and that's what they do but all I really want is someone to listen to me, give me a hug and say they understand.
This would drive my son out of his mind - my dp helped me understand that and it helped us get over the last hurdle. I was trying to just let him be, but it seemed cruel to not check on him and give him a pat or something, but since I have quit doing that when he has a meltdown, it does last much less time.

Quote:

I can totally understand that sometimes it is necessary to remove a child from a situation if she is being very disruptive so that things can't get done but I don't like the idea of ignoring the child when she says she's hungry.

ITA food is a necessity. I invite my kids to meals, but they have access to food at any time. Withholding food would make things so much worse!!!

Thanks for your input, also will continue following the thread... A friend suggested a book specifically about 7 yo that is very much in this realm of thinking that I am going to read first I think. I'm a little overwhelmed with stuff I want to read at the moment







This is it - Seven-Year-Old: Life in a Minor Key Anyone seen it?


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## harrietsmama

Quote:

as for the tone of voice the child used I would let them know how it came across to me and that I don't like to be spoken to in such a way or that in this family we use nicer words with each other.
This is what I am having the most trouble with. My kids are both speaking in such attacking tones to each other, and ds to me. Dd whines a lot - we approach that one with humor though. xh is just *not* on the same page with me anymore and I know they are getting a lot of negative modeling from him so I have to overcompensate for that here, or so it seems. I keep telling them to talk to each other the way they want to be talked to but it clearly isn't working and I'm not sure how else to help them. It was so much easier when they were younger. They have definitely entered a new stage. I try to keep my voice calm and use a non-judgemental stance with them and really everyone.


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## MarineWife

I agree that it's never ok to withhold food. In my house my kids have access to all the food, too, so them not being happy with what is served is not usually a problem. The book I mentioned is more about addressing the tone used or the use of hurtful words. There's a huge difference between saying, "I don't like meatloaf. Can I get something else to eat?", and saying, "This stuff is nasty! How can you expect me to eat this crap! Make me something else right now!" I would not put up with my kids talking to me that way and would probably tell them they needed to leave the table but I would not withhold food or I was not going to buy them whatever they demanded or whatever else the situation may be. You wouldn't let your child continue with play if he were abusing another child, would you? It's important to tell the child your feelings as the reason that they have to leave. For example, "It hurts my feelings when you say things like that to me. I don't like it." There's no judgment in those statements. You're not saying the child was bad or even that the words were bad, just how you feel. There has to be a balance between letting your child express himself and not allowing yourself to be mistreated. KWIM?

There are certainly times when it's better to let a child work things out themselves rather than trying to comfort them. I learned through experience with my now 18yo that sometimes it's better to just let him be when he's feeling bad. He'll come to me if/when he's ready to talk as long as he knows I'm always there for him. It's difficult to do and took me a long time to learn.


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## MarineWife

Me again. Here's the title of that book I mentioned. "Backtalk: 4 Steps to Ending Rude Behavior in Your Kids," by Audrey Ricker and Carolyn Crowder. The ideas and theories in this book seem ok but the example maybe aren't that great. That may be because they are coming from a mainstream perspective, assuming that all parents consider themselves in charge. I think that maybe it's a "take what you need and leave the rest" sort of thing.

Here's another example that might be more pertinent. A child is spending the night at a friend's. She's spent the entire time listening to her friend talk in nasty way to her parents. At one point the friend tells the child to call her parents and tell them to bring their VCR over because her's is broken. The child calls her parents and demands that they bring the VCR. They say they were going to use it later. She says that too bad because she and her friend want it so they have to bring it to her now. The parents tell the girl to get her stuff packed because they are coming to get her and they do. That seems like a reasonable and logical consequence. They do not punish the child anymore once they are home.

Back to the dinner example. I've been thinking about this more. One thing I do when my 5yo sounds rude to me is to repeat back is his demand as a pleasant, more respectful request. For example, my child says, "Get me a cookie!" I say, "May I please have a cookie?" When I do this, my child will actually repeat back to me what I just said and he's much more pleasant about it. It's also very important to model the behavior you want. If you make demands of your child (Go clean your room right now!), that's what the child learns. If you ask your child in a respectful manner (Let's clean your room.), the child learns that is the way to talk to others.

Here's something I had to deal with tonight. I'm caring for 4 children that are not mine because they were removed from their home by DSS. Their mother is in jail. Their father was given supervised visitation privileges at my home. The oldest girl, who is 9yo, grabbed a bag that she had apparently packed and ran out of the house to his car as he was leaving. He had to bring her back in and sit with her a bit more. As he was leaving again she came to me to give me a hug and kiss goodbye. As she did that, he slipped out of the house. I had to shut and bolt the door behind him to keep her in. I wish we could let her go home with her dad but we can't do that right now so I had to do this. She started screaming and crying and grabbing at the door so I had to hold her. I tried to just hug her but she pulled away from me and threw herself on the floor. She was screaming and kicking very violently. After moving the other children away so they wouldn't get hurt, I just stood there and let her do it. She stopped pretty quickly and ran upstairs yelling that she was going to call her dad. I let her. After a while she calmed down and came to me crying that she missed her dad. At that point she let me hold her and hug her and comfort her. She was fine the rest of the night. If I had tried to make her stop either verbally or physically, it would've just made the situation worse. As long as she wasn't hurting herself or anyone else, it seemed best to let her do that.


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## HoneyTree

Hey, mamas.

I borrowed Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting DVD and watched it last night, and boy, was I on a roller coaster of emotions! I was pleased that some much of his "list" (and thanks to whomever reposted it at the beginning of this thread!!) was intuitive to me, delighted that I had always done several of the items, and then devastated and desperate to think of where I had fallen down.

This stuff is so DEEP and HARD sometimes! I almost cried when he started talking about how pointing out what a child is doing well (i.e. sharing) makes them do it LESS! All I could think of was how I had made ds a less intrinsically generous person each time I told him that I noticed how much the other child appreciated his sharing, what a kindness that was, etc.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! There are so many old patterns to break, and so many pitfalls to avoid.

I'm renewed, but also trying to forgive myself for the past, for doing less than I could have but the best I could do at the time.

In that spirit, I'd like to share an article I just read from the NVC QuickContent newsletter in July. It's all about using NVC in your self-talk as a parent:

Thanks for sharing, mamas, and please enjoy!

*****

Getting Past the Parenting "Shoulds", continued

Many parents judge themselves when they find their behavior falling short of their hopes: "I'm a terrible parent"; "If you saw how I behave with my children at home, you wouldn't feel so compassionate toward me..."; "I just can't do this NVC thing!" These are just a few of many statements I have heard from parents over the years.

The tendency so many parents have of judging themselves led me to focus more and more, on supporting parents to work on self-acceptance through self-connection. Without self-acceptance, any attempt at growth and transformation can easily become a path to self-judgments! NVC, with all its focus on transforming judgments, can itself become another yardstick against which to measure ourselves as falling short.

So how do we develop self-compassion, self-acceptance and even self-love? NVC has so much to offer us here! Beginning with the basic practice of self-empathy - checking inwardly with our own feelings and needs.

Self-empathy is a new habit for most people, a very different way to approach ourselves than the self-judgments and self-demands we are used to. Self-empathy can be as simple as getting curious about our feelings and needs, gently inquiring about our inner experience. What am I feeling? What am I needing?

Self-empathy can be taken to a deeper place by using judgments and self-judgments as welcome clues to the deeper life within you, as threads you can hold on to as you navigate your way into yourself.

Another avenue for deepening can be found in opening ourselves to the clues our bodies hold - sensations, movement, sounds - letting ourselves fully experience and make contact with our physical and emotional experience. Then there are various processes for engaging with and deepening our relationship to our needs, so we can move from the state of reactive grasping to get our needs met NOW, to a capacity to live in peace even when our needs are not met.

By reaching in repeatedly to connect with our human experience, we begin to develop compassion and acceptance for ourselves. We deepen our ability to welcome and embrace all of who we are, including on physical, emotional, mental and spiritual levels. Through fuller and deeper self-connection, healing of core patterns of thought and behavior can take place.

Many parents would ask now: "When am I supposed to do this?! I don't have time for my own healing!" With much sadness, I recognize the reality that so many parents face in our world today: torn between so many tasks and projects and needs to attend to, sometimes not even able to provide basic sustainability for our families, our own needs - healing included - can fall by the wayside.

Yet I hold hope that many of the processes NVC invites us to do not have to take more time than what we have. We can engage in them while driving, brushing our teeth, making food, cleaning, or doing any task that does not involve serious engagement of our minds. While it may be ideal to set aside quiet time for self-connection, self-connection can happen with almost every breath we take.

How about trying this: set your watch or cell phone to beep once an hour. When it beeps, take a deep breath and ask yourself: "What's alive in me right now? What is it like to be this human being that I am, right now? How am I feeling at this moment? What needs are moving me?" Take 1-2 minutes to let a response arise within you. Give yourself more time if you can, but even just one minute can make a difference.

Any or all of these questions can open a window into your heart. By nurturing a habit of checking in with yourself, you may be amazed to find that your relationship with yourself can, over time, become your haven, a home you are happy to return to each time. From this foundation of self-connection we can grow our capacity to meet our children with the calm and compassion we long to offer them.

Inbal Kashtan, author of Parenting From Your Heart, recently returned to sharing NVC after facing cancer. You can find out more about her work at www.baynvc.org, and her CD for parents, Connected Pare ting: Nonviolent Communication in Family Life, by clicking here.


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## MarineWife

Here's the Daily Groove by Scott Noelle email for today. I find this one very pertinent and I like it a lot. It's makes me think about finding that balance. I don't have to be a perfect parent. I can have my bad moments as long as I don't blame anyone for them and I don't take them out on anyone, including myself.

:: Be Real ::

Presumably, you want to be a respectful, creative,
loving parent -- and you'd rather not *ever* be
coercive with your child. Wonderful!

But what about those times when you're just in a bad
mood and don't feel like being a super-parent? Must
you sacrifice your authenticity, fake a smile, and go
through the motions?

You can try, but it won't work. Even if self-sacrifice
"works" superficially, it leads to resentment or rage
that eventually hurts everyone.

Here's a twofold alternative: First, give yourself
permission to be *real*. Stop trying to hide how you
really feel. (Kids always know intuitively how their
parents feel, anyway.)

Second -- and most important -- make a solemn
commitment to take responsibility for your feelings.
In other words, you won't blame your child for how you
feel. You won't blame yourself, either, because true
responsibility has nothing to do with blame.

Breakthroughs happen when you honor your "negative"
emotions without making anyone wrong. And when you
truly take responsibility for your feelings, being
coercive doesn't feel "real" at all.

Daily Groove: be-real


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## smeisnotapirate

MarineWife, I sent that to my DH. He's been talking to me about having a hard time not blaming others for the way he feels.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
MarineWife, I sent that to my DH. He's been talking to me about having a hard time not blaming others for the way he feels.

My dh has the same problem. He grew up in a blaming atmosphere and he doesn't seem to comprehend that it could be any other way. If something happens, it has to be someone's fault. When I try to talk to him about how whatever it is isn't 5yo ds' fault, for example, he then turns it around on himself. It must be his fault, then. He's wrong. He's bad. He's an idiot. I try to explain to him that it's no one's "fault" but he just doesn't get that.

I'm better at it. I don't blame others for my feelings but I have a hard time sometimes distinguishing, practically speaking, between responsibility and blame. Maybe it's just the feeling behind it. If I take responsibility for something, I accept my part but don't feel bad about it. However, if I blame myself for something, I feel quilty.









As soon as I can, I'll post a bit about why I need this thread. You all will find that I double post a lot and am long winded. Sorry about that.


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## smeisnotapirate

I have a problem with feeling responsible for OTHER peoples' feelings. Like I frequently find myself worrying whether I've caused people's reactions - total strangers sometimes.









I'm working on it.


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## MarineWife

Finally, a little about my situation right now. My main issue is with the demands that my 5yo makes. He expects me to do whatever he wants whenever he wants it no matter what. If I don't do what he wants right away, he screams and wails and has a fit. I've tried talking to him about it, giving him reasonable reasons for why I can't do whatever it is right now, like I'm in the bathroom. He won't accept any of them. I have tried just sitting with him while he works through the feelings but it goes on so long that I eventually have to leave him to do other things such as attending to my 2yo. He goes on and on and on and gets right in my face until I finally can't take it anymore. When I try to leave he follows me, continuing with his fit. I end up sending him to his room. I tell him he has to go there until he can calm down. I don't set it as a punishment but he still feels like it is, anyway. Any ideas?


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
I have a problem with feeling responsible for OTHER peoples' feelings. Like I frequently find myself worrying whether I've caused people's reactions - total strangers sometimes.









I'm working on it.

Yeah, that's a hard one, too. I had a hard time with that for a long time. I went through some things myself several years ago and was able to work through that so I don't put that on myself anymore. I do a lot now to avoid situations where I think someone might get upset by something I say. I just let a lot of stuff go without comment these days.


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## apple_juice

So the kicking is still happeneing during diaper changes. I lost my temper today (I am a such a b*%ch in first trimester) so I feel like crap!

I will keep trying different techniques to get it to stop but it is so iritating.

I am also finding myself being influenced by the paenting culture here on the base and I do not like it. I find a lot of paents here are very disrespectful of their kids to the point it makes me uncomfy and when they talk about the discipline they use at home (not allowed to be punitove at the centre, although some are) I feel so icky. I ty to steer the conversation away from that because I don't want to talk about contolling kids.

I was very heabily influenced last week by a mom (she controls her kids so much it is almost micromanagement) who basically judged my parenting and my house cleanliness infront of a bunch of people and it left me reeling and rethinking but I am back on trackand trrusting myself and my instincts that G defintley is thiving with less control and more compassion.

I have even found myself relaxing about his bedtime more and not freaking when he isnt in bed by 8. I find I am so much more relaxed when I don't sweat the small stuff and try to look trhough his eyes and meet his needs.

This seems kind of rambly andnot making much sense but I was sort of in need of a brain download.

Thanks


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## MarineWife

apple_juice ~ Are you guys military? I am, in case you couldn't tell by my name. Being in the military community seems to make it a lot harder to treat kids gently. Most parents seem very controlling and punitive, many to the point I consider abusive. I tend not to get involved in child activities and playgroups and the like that are through the military or for military families. I just can't stomach it. Remember that when someone is judging you it's usually because she feels threatened by you. Maybe your lifestyle and parenting threatened that other woman because she's not comfortable with how controlling she is. You don't need to respond to that sort of thing. Not getting drawn into trying to justify how you do things shows your confidence. Sometimes a short, flip comment can nip things.

With the kicking while being changed, is it necessary to keep your ds dressed all the time? Or does it have to be done right at that moment? Can you walk a way or step back and just wait for him to stop kicking? Tell him you will finish getting him dressed when he's done. Maybe you can wait a while or do it in bits and spurts. My dcs run around naked in the house as much as they want so we have less struggles with changes and dressing (and one is not fully potty trained but he's working on it). If you are pulling your ds away from something to change him, that could be contributing to his resistance. Can you change him wherever he is so that he's not pulled away from what he's doing?

Today I had to get ds3 dressed so we could go out. He turned himself over on his stomach so I couldn't dress him easily. I said, "Ok, you can stay there until you are ready to be dressed but we can't get in the car and go until you are dressed." He immediately turned over and let me dress him. I think he's a bit older than your ds. He's 26 months (2 years).


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
My dh has the same problem. He grew up in a blaming atmosphere and he doesn't seem to comprehend that it could be any other way. If something happens, it has to be someone's fault. When I try to talk to him about how whatever it is isn't 5yo ds' fault, for example, he then turns it around on himself. It must be his fault, then. He's wrong. He's bad. He's an idiot. I try to explain to him that it's no one's "fault" but he just doesn't get that.

I'm better at it. I don't blame others for my feelings but I have a hard time sometimes distinguishing, practically speaking, between responsibility and blame. Maybe it's just the feeling behind it. If I take responsibility for something, I accept my part but don't feel bad about it. However, if I blame myself for something, I feel quilty.









As soon as I can, I'll post a bit about why I need this thread. You all will find that I double post a lot and am long winded. Sorry about that.

I do this - the overactive responsibility bit.

My son tends more toward tone of voice issues than words that are hurtful or otherwise undesired. What have you all found to be helpful in helping a child to perceive tones of voice?


----------



## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
My son tends more toward tone of voice issues than words that are hurtful or otherwise undesired. What have you all found to be helpful in helping a child to perceive tones of voice?

Modeling what you want to hear is always a good thing. Try to pay attention to the way you and other family members talk to each other and to other people you come in contact with. Many times I have found that when my child is doing something I don't like, he is copying my behavior that I didn't even realize I was doing.

Not reacting to the tone in an emotional but way matter-of-factly stating that you don't like being talked to like that. I have stopped doing things for my ds when he yells an order at me. I tell him that I don't like being ordered around but am usually happy to do things for others when they ask. I don't make him say please or anything like that. Just, "Would you ...," rather than, "Do this right now!"

One thing to keep in mind is that behavior won't change over night. It's a constant ebb and flow.


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## jewelsJZ

joining this great thread!


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## chataine

hey guys, i am not a regular poster.. but i often come here when i am at my wit's end because i don't agree with most secular parenting..then i login today and see this thread and it made me <3 ...

so i think i need to whip out "how to talk to kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk" but i haven't yet.. my 3.5 yr old, it seems ,all of a sudden has stopped listening.. before if she was tormenting her brother and i said "stop" she would..and i could help her through either calming down or redirect her.. lately she escalates her behavior or takes off running into another room.. her level of aggression seems to have escalated towards her brother (19 mos) but i am thinking it might be a) one of the kids she plays with often started getting really rough.. and her brother finally started hitting back..so now they fight all the time.

this isn't even really my big issues.. my DD is always in what she calls a "mama mood" where she doesn't want to let my DH do anything for her..she says "no mama!" and whines, its gotten so bad that i feel SO taxed...my DS nurses a lot still and i am 10.5 weeks pregnant. she won't hold his hand when crossing the street, let him put her to bed etc.. and then its like she is having mini breakdowns anytime she is disappointed..

its all within the last two weeks all of this started to climax to the point where i am now..i don't know how to handle it.. my husband and i are starting to get really frustrated.. and exhausted.. maybe she knows something is going to change? with the baby..she has known about my pregnancy for a long time, and is very gifted verbally so we talk about it all the time.. and has seems very excited..

i guess like anything else i didn't know how to parent a two year old until i had one, and i am struggling with this stage.. any advice or insight would be great..


----------



## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Modeling what you want to hear is always a good thing. Try to pay attention to the way you and other family members talk to each other and to other people you come in contact with. Many times I have found that when my child is doing something I don't like, he is copying my behavior that I didn't even realize I was doing.

Not reacting to the tone in an emotional but way matter-of-factly stating that you don't like being talked to like that. I have stopped doing things for my ds when he yells an order at me. I tell him that I don't like being ordered around but am usually happy to do things for others when they ask. I don't make him say please or anything like that. Just, "Would you ...," rather than, "Do this right now!"

One thing to keep in mind is that behavior won't change over night. It's a constant ebb and flow.

I'm not saying I'm totally innocent, although I do very well, but he's modeling my ex. His dad is very very stressed right now and I try to give him extra time to himself and what not, but I've heard him speaking very sarcastically, grumpy, etc., even to me. I'm not sure I can do anything to influence him, but I can help Crispin when he's in my environment. That's kind of why I need some extra ideas because He's getting lots of dad, then he's here and I want to help him undo it, kwim?


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chataine* 
hey guys, i am not a regular poster.. but i often come here when i am at my wit's end because i don't agree with most secular parenting..then i login today and see this thread and it made me <3 ...

so i think i need to whip out "how to talk to kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk" but i haven't yet.. my 3.5 yr old, it seems ,all of a sudden has stopped listening.. before if she was tormenting her brother and i said "stop" she would..and i could help her through either calming down or redirect her.. lately she escalates her behavior or takes off running into another room.. her level of aggression seems to have escalated towards her brother (19 mos) but i am thinking it might be a) one of the kids she plays with often started getting really rough.. and her brother finally started hitting back..so now they fight all the time.

this isn't even really my big issues.. my DD is always in what she calls a "mama mood" where she doesn't want to let my DH do anything for her..she says "no mama!" and whines, its gotten so bad that i feel SO taxed...my DS nurses a lot still and i am 10.5 weeks pregnant. she won't hold his hand when crossing the street, let him put her to bed etc.. and then its like she is having mini breakdowns anytime she is disappointed..

its all within the last two weeks all of this started to climax to the point where i am now..i don't know how to handle it.. my husband and i are starting to get really frustrated.. and exhausted.. maybe she knows something is going to change? with the baby..she has known about my pregnancy for a long time, and is very gifted verbally so we talk about it all the time.. and has seems very excited..

i guess like anything else i didn't know how to parent a two year old until i had one, and i am struggling with this stage.. any advice or insight would be great..

It sounds like she needs a few extra times snuggling skin to skin with mommy, maybe take some of her favorite fluffy/dolly buddies and a few books to bed and just snuggle for awhile. Shorter more frequent periods will probably help fill her cup.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
I'm not saying I'm totally innocent, although I do very well, but he's modeling my ex. His dad is very very stressed right now and I try to give him extra time to himself and what not, but I've heard him speaking very sarcastically, grumpy, etc., even to me. I'm not sure I can do anything to influence him, but I can help Crispin when he's in my environment. That's kind of why I need some extra ideas because He's getting lots of dad, then he's here and I want to help him undo it, kwim?

Yeah, that's a hard one. I have to deal with the influence of my oldest teenager on my LOs. I also have to deal with the influence of his friends and their families. My 5yo ds has picked up a lot of nastiness from his best friend that I have to try to combat. I also have the issue right now of the influence from the other children who were in my home for a week. They come from a very controlling, nasty, abusive home and were just plain mean to each other. Now I have to try to sort of deprogram my dses from thinking that's an ok, normal to talk to others.

Again, I think the best way to do that is to not react emotionally to what the child does but state in a neutral tone that you don't like it and to model what you do find acceptable as much as possible. I do tell my ds that I don't like being ordered around and feel less inclined to do what he wants when he demands it. I don't hold a grudge, though, and refuse to do anything for him even when he changes his tune unless I'm so angry in the moment that I need some time to calm down myself. I guess that could be seen as positive reinforcement. I think doing it that way seems to express that I love him no matter what but I do have personal boundaries of how I want to be treated. It's a balancing act and I'm certainly not perfect at it, either. Every day is a new beginning, though.


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## ShineliketheSon

So grateful for this thread...just got UP book from the library..I take a little of this and a little of that...I know there are some key things I will apply to my molded GD parenting style...always learning always changing! thanks for your openness mamas!


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Yeah, that's a hard one. I have to deal with the influence of my oldest teenager on my LOs. I also have to deal with the influence of his friends and their families. My 5yo ds has picked up a lot of nastiness from his best friend that I have to try to combat. I also have the issue right now of the influence from the other children who were in my home for a week. They come from a very controlling, nasty, abusive home and were just plain mean to each other. Now I have to try to sort of deprogram my dses from thinking that's an ok, normal to talk to others.

Again, I think the best way to do that is to not react emotionally to what the child does but state in a neutral tone that you don't like it and to model what you do find acceptable as much as possible. I do tell my ds that I don't like being ordered around and feel less inclined to do what he wants when he demands it. I don't hold a grudge, though, and refuse to do anything for him even when he changes his tune unless I'm so angry in the moment that I need some time to calm down myself. I guess that could be seen as positive reinforcement. I think doing it that way seems to express that I love him no matter what but I do have personal boundaries of how I want to be treated. It's a balancing act and I'm certainly not perfect at it, either. Every day is a new beginning, though.

Glad to know I'm not the only one







This is kind of how I've been approaching it, but I'm going to try to pay more attention to my own tone and make sure it's what I want to convey. Thanks mamas!


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## apple_juice

Hey everyone,

New day new issue..

But first yes Marinewife we live on a base, my husband is in the Canadian Forces. I have never lived on base before prefering living in the towns we are posted to but it wasn't possible this time. I do notice what you notice about the parenting culture it is very punitive. I also notice alot of disrespect towards their partners which usually alienates me from any adult conversation going on.

On to my newest issue. My son is eating art supplies and by eating I mean chowing down. He asks to pain or colour everyday and I am getting so angry about this constant eating of crayons, markers and paint that I either do not let him do art or I get so angry that he won't stop that I need to leave him until he is finished his snack. For some reason it makes me really angry. Right now I can hear him biting the tips off the crayons. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, should I just leave it. Let him paint and pig out till his heart is content and eventually he will grow out of it? They are all non-toxic.

Should I put all art supplies out of sight and revisit art in 6 months?

My husband suggested spraying bitter apple on crayons and putting soap in the paint so he will be detered but I think that might be a little mean. Any other suggestions would be great because right now art time is on the verge of mommy freakout time for me.


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## mckennasmomma

apple juice-how old is your son again?


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## harrietsmama

Apple Juice, do you think it could be anything nutritional? Pica is a possibility if he's especially picky ( hence a mineral deficiency) or I don't know what else might lead to it - it's a craving to eat non food stuff. Unless he's still pretty young in which case some of the stuff they eat just is exploratory. Could you do art with food items? Like paint with ketchup or ummm, ugh drawing a black here but I'll bet you could find something online.


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## apple_juice

G is 19 months old. I think it may be that he is exploring and likes the taste. I was a bit worried about pica. He isn't very picky at all though. He eats everything with gusto except meat.

Someone at a playgroup today mentioned maybe getting soy crayons so I am not worried about the petro based ones.

I noticed he rarely eats it when he is at his easle. He mostly eats them when he is siting so maybe if we try only doing arts standing at the easle.

On a funny note my DH actually tried the paint and he said it isn't too bad, kind of minty.


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## MarineWife

I like the idea of doing art with food items until he grows out of this phase. My 2yo likes to eat crayons. It drives me crazy. But, then, he's been putting everything in his mouth lately. I feel like I'm constantly talking to him about how it's not safe to put anything but food in our mouths.


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## joanna0707

What a wonderful thread, I did not read all the posts yet, will continue tomorrow, need to get some sleep tonite.

I read the UP few days ago and love it, love it.
I'm wondering if what I'm trying to do with my DS goes against it, please help me solve my dilemma.

DS is 22 mo and loves to be rocked to sleep. Well, I'm getting a little tired of this and for the past few days I'm trying to put him to sleep without rocking, I'm lying down with him. Well, he hates that, keeps asking for rocking chair, crys very hard. He's really miserable and I hate seeing him like this. I'm wondering, should I keep using the rocking chair and stop fighting about this thing? On the other hand, isn't he to big to be rocked to sleep like a newborn?

I guess the UP way will be to keep rocking until DS is ready to fall asleep without it but is it really good for him?

Oh, I'm so confused, don't know what to do about this...


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## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Finally, a little about my situation right now. My main issue is with the demands that my 5yo makes. He expects me to do whatever he wants whenever he wants it no matter what. If I don't do what he wants right away, he screams and wails and has a fit. I've tried talking to him about it, giving him reasonable reasons for why I can't do whatever it is right now, like I'm in the bathroom. He won't accept any of them. I have tried just sitting with him while he works through the feelings but it goes on so long that I eventually have to leave him to do other things such as attending to my 2yo. He goes on and on and on and gets right in my face until I finally can't take it anymore. When I try to leave he follows me, continuing with his fit. I end up sending him to his room. I tell him he has to go there until he can calm down. I don't set it as a punishment but he still feels like it is, anyway. Any ideas?

my 4yo is doing all this- he goes out of his way to pick a fight and try to get me to be upset. i keep asking 'what is it you really want to do', and get back 'i don't know'...


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
DS is 22 mo and loves to be rocked to sleep. Well, I'm getting a little tired of this and for the past few days I'm trying to put him to sleep without rocking, I'm lying down with him. Well, he hates that, keeps asking for rocking chair, crys very hard. He's really miserable and I hate seeing him like this. I'm wondering, should I keep using the rocking chair and stop fighting about this thing? On the other hand, isn't he to big to be rocked to sleep like a newborn?

I guess the UP way will be to keep rocking until DS is ready to fall asleep without it but is it really good for him?

I have a few thoughts. First, I think, is to figure out why you are tiring of this routine if it seems to work so smoothly. Can someone else rock him for a while to give you a break? Will he accept that? If your dp is available, have him/her take over bedtimes. I try not to apply the "s/he's too old for this now". That stems from conventional parenting that assumes that children need to grow up and behave in a way that doesn't inconvenience adults. Children just aren't like that. They grow out of things at their own pace. I think not giving a child, especially a very young one, the care and nurturing he needs would cause more damage than doing something that seems like "babying." Kind of like the idea of spoiling a child by giving him too much attention. That attitude, as far as I know, has pretty much been thrown out the window by even the conventional "experts". Things spoil when they are left to sit by themselves. Children grow up to be more confident, caring and independent adults when they have all the love and nurturing they need at home. That sense of home always being an unconditionally loving and safe place gives them the strength to face whatever life throws at them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spottiew*
my 4yo is doing all this- he goes out of his way to pick a fight and try to get me to be upset. i keep asking 'what is it you really want to do', and get back 'i don't know'...

I wouldn't expect a 4yo to be able to tell you what the underlying need is. I would guess, based on the limited info you've given, that if he seems to be going out of his way to pick fights, he's in need of your attention. He's seeking it in negative ways because he feels like he's not getting enough just naturally or in positive ways?







Please, don't take that as a criticism or judgment. I think this happens with all parents at some time. I struggle a lot with not getting to busy with my own things that I almost forget that my children need me, sometimes just to sit with them and do nothing (which drives me batty!). Maybe trying to avoid the conflict by trying to be one step ahead of what your child wants or needs would help.

I have tried to make more of an effort to tell my child that I don't like being ordered around. I will gladly do whatever he asks of me when he asks me but I will not do something if he orders, screams, yells, etc. I repeat back to him the way I want to hear it. So, if he says, "Get me this now!" in a very loud voice, I say, "Would you get this for me?" or "You would like me to get that for you?"

Another big thing I've noticed is that I've become quite bossy lately, especially with my 2yo. He seems to respond better to very short, direct statements. I find myself saying things to him like, "Stop that now!" a lot. I think my 5yo is copying me a lot. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't yell or otherwise sound angry (most of the time) when I say things like that to my 2yo, I don't think.

WRT that book I mentioned awhile back, I've decided that the theories sound nice and may even be in line with UP, the execution of the authors' "logical" consequences are not. Most don't really seem to logical to me at all. So, although I may try to keep the 4 principles outlined in the book in mind when dealing with behavior from my child that I do not like, I do NOT recommend using the book as a guide of specific things to do.


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## MarineWife

Me again. Here's a website for some inspirational and uplifting decals (not overtly religious). I got a bunch for my family. I have them stuck on the mirror in the hall bathroom. Many friends and guests have commented on how much they like them. You can get stickers or static cling type decals. You can stick them on your car window facing inside or out.

Blisscals


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## joanna0707

Thank you MarineWife
Why did I decide to stop rocking? Firstly, my son wants to fall a sleep in the rocking chair, lately, when I put him down to bed he wakes up and crys for more. Secondly, he wakes up at night and wants to be rocked. I'm just tired of this routine and would like to change it. I tried to rock less gradually every evening, it's not working, DS wants to fall a sleep in my arms in the rocking chair...

My thoughts on natural consequence - is it really as bad as Alfie Kohn says in his book? Yes, it may seem conditional on some occasions but it teaches kids that thay are responsible for their actions, doesn't it? We all know that talking and explaining will get as only so far. Isn't it better sometimes than nagging and reminding for the hundredth time?


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
Thank you MarineWife
Why did I decide to stop rocking? Firstly, my son wants to fall a sleep in the rocking chair, lately, when I put him down to bed he wakes up and crys for more. Secondly, he wakes up at night and wants to be rocked. I'm just tired of this routine and would like to change it. I tried to rock less gradually every evening, it's not working, DS wants to fall a sleep in my arms in the rocking chair...

My thoughts on natural consequence - is it really as bad as Alfie Kohn says in his book? Yes, it may seem conditional on some occasions but it teaches kids that thay are responsible for their actions, doesn't it? We all know that talking and explaining will get as only so far. Isn't it better sometimes than nagging and reminding for the hundredth time?

That's a hard one. I understand the frustration of feeling like you can't put your LO down and/or he won't stay asleep when you do. My 2nd ds would not sleep for more than 20 minutes at a time unless he was being held or someone was laying next to him the entire time. He didn't sleep through the night until he was about 2.5 years old.

Is the waking at night new? If so, maybe he's getting his 2 year molars and that's making it hard for him to stay asleep, waking him up at night and making him want more cuddling/snuggling/holding from you?

It's been a long time since I read UP so I can't remember what it says about natural consequences. If you are referring to what I posted, I was talking about logical consequences. Those are different from natural consequences. An example: A child is playing roughly with a toy. The natural consequence would be to let him continue play how he wants until the toy gets broken. The natural consequence being that the toy is broken. A "logical" consequence according to conventional parenting would be to take the toy away for a while. Logically, if you don't use something properly or safely, you shouldn't be allowed to use it. That's not natural, though, because it interferes with what would be the natural course of events.


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## joanna0707

My DS is not sleeping well from the very beginning, he never slept thru the night, he usually wakes at night 3-5 times, which is way better than what it was just few months ago.

UP talks about natural consequence. For example, the child is late for dinner, his family ate and cleaned the table. The mother doesn't serve the food again because the child wasn't home on time. As a natural consequence the child has to warm up the food himself or stay hungry. He'll learn he needs to be home on time. According to Alfie Kohn the child will think his parents don't care about him and his hunger, he says natural consequence is like punishment.
So what is the mother supposed to do? Serve the food lovingly each time the child is late? What does she teach the child? Certainly not to respect her and care about her feelings. I don't know, I might be wrong but I think children need to learn that everything they do has consequences, our job is to prepare them to live in the cruel world around us not to shield them from it all the time. Going hungry one evening is a small price to pay but teaches valuable lesson.

According to UP removing the toy from the child hand means imposing your will on the child which is something we should avoid. At least this is the way I understand it.

I have to reread the book, there's a lot of confusion in my head


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## joanna0707

I'd love to read books similar to UP, maybe this would help me understand the ideas behind UP a little better.

Can anyone recommend a good read, please


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## joanna0707

Originally Posted by MarineWife
Finally, a little about my situation right now. My main issue is with the demands that my 5yo makes. He expects me to do whatever he wants whenever he wants it no matter what. If I don't do what he wants right away, he screams and wails and has a fit. I've tried talking to him about it, giving him reasonable reasons for why I can't do whatever it is right now, like I'm in the bathroom. He won't accept any of them. I have tried just sitting with him while he works through the feelings but it goes on so long that I eventually have to leave him to do other things such as attending to my 2yo. He goes on and on and on and gets right in my face until I finally can't take it anymore. When I try to leave he follows me, continuing with his fit. I end up sending him to his room. I tell him he has to go there until he can calm down. I don't set it as a punishment but he still feels like it is, anyway. Any ideas?

Did you try humor? Maybe doing something playful and funny will distract your son and change his mood.


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## Devaya

Joanna, I can sympathise with the needing to be rocked to sleep thing with my 22 month old. For me, he just got too heavy. I tried just lying down with him cuddling me for a few nights and telling him this is how we go to sleep, and he actually barely cried, then fell asleep. Since then he no longer needs to be rocked or fed to sleep, though it does take longer for him to fall asleep now. Maybe when your little one is ready, he will be able to move on - a lot of things I tried with DS's sleep, just didn't work until a few months later, and I had to be SO patient (like trying to nightwean, 4 times!). I really agree with UP but I also think, parents are human and have needs too, and shouldn't be feeling resentful. It's always good to examine your thoughts, like what MarineWife suggested,but if you still really feel you want to change things, I think it's not a bad thing to do.

I'm feeling a little confused about UP and gentle discipline in general, after spending a day in a home daycare setting which I was trying out as a possible place to work. I decided against it after realising the huge ideological differences between me and the lady who runs it, in terms of how children operate and how to best provide for their needs. She was about as behaviourist as they come. Although certain things she did were, in my opinion, really not right (such as labelling a child negatively, repeatedly, in front of her, and roughly removing a child from an activity when she kept doing something 'wrong', almost slapping her hand in the process), a few things she said about her approach did get me thinking that maybe she has a point.

She said children need safety, and they feel safe when they know what's coming next, and when they have boundaries. That we must lead, and they follow. Hence, the day is rigidly organised, and they all go to nap at the exact same time, for the same length of time, all have to wait till everyone's finished eating before they can get up (leading to long periods of being stuck in a high chair, several times a day), etc. They're never asked if they want to do something such as sit in their chair and eat, it's 'Let's sit down', and physically sit them down. Within those boundaries, the children had the freedom to choose whatever toys they wanted and play however they wanted as long as it didn't harm others.

It got me thinking, b/c as a UP parent and a SAHM, trying to go with the flow and meet both my and DS's needs in as balanced a way as poss, requires a great deal of flexibility, and when I try to be more 'set' then it just results in battles between us, ruining our relationship. I don't have much of a routine. Sure, we eat three meals a day and so on (but not always at the same time of day, or in the same place), but every day is quite different. We might go to the park, we might stay in and clean, we might meet a friend, or play in the paddling pool in the garden. ALthough he has a 'bedtime routine', I don't think DS necessarily knows 'what's next' throughout the day. He'll often get up and as soon as we go downstairs, demand to 'go out', and get upset when he can't - b/c some days, I have volunteering commitments in the morning or whatever and have to be somewhere, and others, we can take a slow pace and just mellow into the day.

And it just made me wonder, maybe this explains some of his 'behaviours' (hate that word) like walking around whining (when he's had enough sleep) and asking to breastfeed almost constantly, biting my skirt, and just generally trying to obstruct a lot of things I try to do (no matter how I try to include him). Maybe he feels insecure...When I came home after this day, my son just seemed so 'out of control' and loud and shouty (and he's really a very pleasant, sociable little guy!) compared to these docile creatures at the daycare, and I found myself wondering if I've 'created a monster'...aah the self doubt!

Yet the thought of trying to have my home life like this woman's daycare setting is pretty horrifying, and to me would take most of the joy and spontaneity out of life. I guess, I think safety comes from feeling you're understood (or at least your parents try to understand), valued and loved, not knowing what's going to happen every second of the day. Or so I like to think!

what are other people's thoughts? Sorry so long! Just thinking aloud, really. I find it quite hard to keep my parenting ideals up against the kind of certainty that people like this child-minder display...I found myself speechless to come up with any rational counter-argument to her approaches, when she was explaining them.


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## JessBB

I think about this all the time!

To me, the solution is to split the difference. For starters, I hear lots of parents (on MDC and IRL) extolling the virtues of NO schedule, no routines, etc. Personally, I think that position is too extreme and is more for the parent's convenience than for the child's well-being - which you could also say about the caregiver you encountered! I have never, EVER met a young child that didn't benefit from some regularity and predictibility in their lives. Now here I am talking about from age 6-8 months on through the early school ages. IMO kids that young sometimes have needs "sneak up on them", i.e. they become overly hungry, tired, stimulated etc without realizing it, and that is when they engage in behaviors that...shall we say...cause stress in their caregivers?









So as far as my children (2.5 and 6 mo) go, we have a rhythm to our days and weeks. Up around the same time, food (meals and snacks) around the same time, nap, and bedtime routine. This has done WONDERS for our family. Until ds1 was about 18 months, we were "unschedulers" but we were all often miserable and we really weren't enjoying each other. Now when I am having problems with ds1 or ds2, 99% of the time it is hunger, fatigue, boredom or overstimulation. Gone are the epic nap and bedtime struggles...most of the time.

That being said, of course we are flexible. No one is being stuck in a crib because the clock struck one. If we are at a birthday party, we might skip nap. But then, if one of the boys totally melts down, it is *my* fault.

Anyway, that's what works for my family. We are predictable, but happy!


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## Magella

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
She said children need safety, and they feel safe when they know what's coming next, and when they have boundaries. That we must lead, and they follow. Hence, the day is rigidly organised, and they all go to nap at the exact same time, for the same length of time, all have to wait till everyone's finished eating before they can get up (leading to long periods of being stuck in a high chair, several times a day), etc. They're never asked if they want to do something such as sit in their chair and eat, it's 'Let's sit down', and physically sit them down. Within those boundaries, the children had the freedom to choose whatever toys they wanted and play however they wanted as long as it didn't harm others.

It got me thinking, b/c as a UP parent and a SAHM, trying to go with the flow and meet both my and DS's needs in as balanced a way as poss, requires a great deal of flexibility, and when I try to be more 'set' then it just results in battles between us, ruining our relationship. I don't have much of a routine. Sure, we eat three meals a day and so on (but not always at the same time of day, or in the same place), but every day is quite different. We might go to the park, we might stay in and clean, we might meet a friend, or play in the paddling pool in the garden. ALthough he has a 'bedtime routine', I don't think DS necessarily knows 'what's next' throughout the day. He'll often get up and as soon as we go downstairs, demand to 'go out', and get upset when he can't - b/c some days, I have volunteering commitments in the morning or whatever and have to be somewhere, and others, we can take a slow pace and just mellow into the day.
And it just made me wonder, maybe this explains some of his 'behaviours' (hate that word) like walking around whining (when he's had enough sleep) and asking to breastfeed almost constantly, biting my skirt, and just generally trying to obstruct a lot of things I try to do (no matter how I try to include him). Maybe he feels insecure...When I came home after this day, my son just seemed so 'out of control' and loud and shouty (and he's really a very pleasant, sociable little guy!) compared to these docile creatures at the daycare, and I found myself wondering if I've 'created a monster'...aah the self doubt!

Yet the thought of trying to have my home life like this woman's daycare setting is pretty horrifying, and to me would take most of the joy and spontaneity out of life. I guess, I think safety comes from feeling you're understood (or at least your parents try to understand), valued and loved, not knowing what's going to happen every second of the day. Or so I like to think!

I was intrigued by your inadvertent post outside the thread, and came to read your post. I read UP way back when, and had the pleasure of listening to Alfie Kohn speak, and in general agree with his way of looking at things though I don't usually post to this thread.

I think that routine and predictability often _do_ help kids feel better (more secure, more relaxed). Certainly it's not the only thing that allows a child to feel secure, but it is a factor for many kids. And I think some kids need more predictability than others. I have 3 kids who all need different amounts of predictability to feel and function at their best. My oldest absolutely thrives on _lots_ of structure and predictability, and without it she is much more anxious and irritable. My middle child can just go with the flow and can handle a lot of unpredictability very well. My third is somewhere in the middle.

I think that there is a very big middle ground between having no structure/routine (not that you have no structure/routine) and what you saw at that daycare. I don't think that the kind of predictability that allows (some) kids to feel better has to be extremely rigid. My oldest needs lots of predictability, she needs to know what is going to happen and when--but she can get that from our sitting together to plan the day and write down the day's plans on a wipe-off board (this helps even if every day is different). We still have the flexibility to make changes, so long as we make those changes with the advance notice she needs (this is a child who can have difficulty with a change in plan, even if it's a change in plan she desires). And there are other ways to have predictability too. We can have predictability through just having a basic rhythm to the day, where the kids know we get up, then eat, then get dressed, then play, then lunch (without having to be more specific about what time we do these things, exactly how we do them, and for how long). Routine, rhythm, predictability don't have to be things we impose on our kids, but can be things we create together.


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## apple_juice

So I set up the easel and got him a stool and he hardly ate the paint at all. Yesterday we used markers together with him on my lap instead on in the high chair and he didn't eat them.

Kicking is still happening and still so frustrating. Have tried letting him run with no diaper and get one on when he is ready but yesterday was the worst kicking episode and he brought the diaper and lied down.

Anyway I am almost half way through the book and I am trying really hard to be a more patient parent.

Today we were out playing with trains in a bookstore and it was time to go as he was very tired. He is only 19 months so he didn't understand the "we are leaving in two minutes" statement and he wouldn't let go of the trains so I had to take them from him. He wailed all the way to the car and I was wondering if there is a UP way of handling that situation better.


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
...When I came home after this day, my son just seemed so 'out of control' and loud and shouty (and he's really a very pleasant, sociable little guy!) compared to these docile creatures at the daycare, and I found myself wondering if I've 'created a monster'...aah the self doubt!

Yet the thought of trying to have my home life like this woman's daycare setting is pretty horrifying, and to me would take most of the joy and spontaneity out of life. I guess, I think safety comes from feeling you're understood (or at least your parents try to understand), valued and loved, not knowing what's going to happen every second of the day. Or so I like to think!

what are other people's thoughts? Sorry so long! Just thinking aloud, really. I find it quite hard to keep my parenting ideals up against the kind of certainty that people like this child-minder display...I found myself speechless to come up with any rational counter-argument to her approaches, when she was explaining them.


The self-doubt is really hard. I hope this short little story helps buoy your confidence a bit:
my dd is one very busy little girl (11 months old). She is always the loudest, most active, and covered-in-dirt +/- 1 year old in any group. Sometimes it makes me a bit uncomfortable, most of the time I remember that her high energy is a trait that will be a very positive quality as she gets older, and for right now it is just an example of how aware of and involved in the world she is. Anyway, my mom (who was totally AP before the term existed!) was up here visiting today, and she commented that she remembers me being just as high energy when I was that age, and that at times it was hard because she would be around other babies who were much more docile and were therefore labeled "good" babies.

My point is just that there are all kinds of personalities out there, and it can be hard when your child is outspoken and this society tends to equate "docile" with "good". The caregiver you described may have successfully trained those kids in to submission, but in my opinion that goes against the goal of my parenting ideology. I hope to raise a daughter who thinks for herself, and has the confidence to make her own decisions. Not one who blindly follows and submits. Of course, at 11 months old I don't expect her to be making decisions (duh!) but I do treat her in such a way that she will hopefully grow up knowing that I respect her as a thinking person.


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## joanna0707

Magella, what a wonderful idea, writing down the plan for the day, this really gives a nice structure to the day and the child knows what will come next. I will definitely use it in the future with my children.
My cousin does a similar thing with her 4 yo, she tells him the day ahead what will happen the next day.

I mostly agree with UP, I'm afraid though that the line between gentle discipline and spoiling is so fine and easy to cross. I keep thinking about it, or should I say I'm obsessed







and I'm not sure how to deal with misbehavior, how do I set gentle boundaries, after all, kids need to know what is expected of them.


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## Valval

Drawn in by the misplaced post also.
I am a home childcare provider and the way I organize my day with the children I care for and the way we are with just my own dd are two very different things.

When you have a bunch of children all coming in from different families, with very different home routines, imho, they (and I) need the structure and schedule in my home, just to get anything done.

I had 6 children and my own today. If I tried to feed them 2 meals and 2 snacks, getting their hands washed before and after, washing hands when we came inside, going potty before we go outside,..... I would be a nut if I tried to get this accomplished without some sort of schedule or routine.

But that's the nature of daycare when your trying to meet the needs of many different children that on their own would be shooting off in 7 different directions at once. (outside of those routines and getting them out early in the summertime, I keep a pretty open schedule with lots of open art and imaginative play)
With your own child it doesn't need to be so rigid. The only two scheduled things we have are wake up during the school week and bedtime (because someone has some serious issues when they are tired).
The weekends are anything goes.
I don't think I would ever be able to regulate the daily schedule with my own child the way I do with the children I care for. It's not necessary.

(all that being said, by dd is 6 and generally pretty laid back about doing what we ask of her. We also do a lot of things based on her interests and wants because we are lucky that those kind of mirror ours)


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## MarineWife

I'm a very go-with-the-flow, no schedule type of person. We don't have a set bedtime or set time when everyone needs to come in from playing outside or for turning off the TV. We do have a routine, though. We get up in the morning. We eat breakfast. We go about our day, whatever that may be. We have lunch usually somewhere between noon and 1 pm because that's when we usually get hungry. We have dinner usually between 6 and 7 pm because that's the time dinner is usually done after I get it started at whatever time I realize we're probably going to be hungry soon and ready to eat dinner. We also usually get into bed around 9 pm and are all asleep with the lights out by 11 pm. It just works that way for us but none of it is scheduled. So, although we have nothing like a schedule, my children can predict that certain things will happen every day. Mommy will be here. We will eat. We will play. We will take a nap (most days).

That's very different to me than the idea that children need rigid schedules where everything is planned out for them and the same thing is done at the same time every day. Of course, what is done in a daycare with many children from many types of homes is very different than what I do in my home with my 2 LOs out of necessity. That's one big reason I won't put my children in a daycare or school setting. I don't want them in that type of environment. I find it very stifling. Our life is also very different from one that has no predictability. I think that would be very stressful and upsetting for just about anyone.

joanna ~ I think the natural consequence that you described is age and ability dependent. If my 5 or 6yo was outside playing and forgot the time and missed dinner, I would probably be ready to either heat it up for him or make him something else. I wouldn't refuse to make him something to eat so that he would be hungry for the rest of the night just because he wasn't home when I wanted him home. However, if my 15yo came home late, I would probably tell him that dinner was in the fridge and he could heat it up if he wanted it.

Quote:

kids need to know what is expected of them
By whom? For what? I do think it's good to be honest with children. No one should be a doormat. If you don't like something, say so, but find a way to do it without blaming the child. If you expect something, it's ok to make a request but remember to keep the responsibility of the expectation on yourself. It is not the child's responsibility to take care of the adult's needs or wants.

I'm afraid we're really steering away from providing support for practicing UP and that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about.


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I'm a very go-with-the-flow, no schedule type of person. We don't have a set bedtime or set time when everyone needs to come in from playing outside or for turning off the TV. We do have a routine, though. We get up in the morning. We eat breakfast. We go about our day, whatever that may be. We have lunch usually somewhere between noon and 1 pm because that's when we usually get hungry. We have dinner usually between 6 and 7 pm because that's the time dinner is usually done after I get it started at whatever time I realize we're probably going to be hungry soon and ready to eat dinner. We also usually get into bed around 9 pm and are all asleep with the lights out by 11 pm. It just works that way for us but none of it is scheduled. So, although we have nothing like a schedule, my children can predict that certain things will happen every day. Mommy will be here. We will eat. We will play. We will take a nap (most days).

That's exactly like us, minus the naps.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

Quote:

kids need to know what is expected of them
By whom? For what? I do think it's good to be honest with children. No one should be a doormat. If you don't like something, say so, but find a way to do it without blaming the child. If you expect something, it's ok to make a request but remember to keep the responsibility of the expectation on yourself. It is not the child's responsibility to take care of the adult's needs or wants.

I'm afraid we're really steering away from providing support for practicing UP and that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about.


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## joanna0707

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

I'm afraid we're really steering away from providing support for practicing UP and that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about.

You are right, I apologize

I intend to raise my child the UP way, it's just hard to change the way one thinks without asking and analyzing. I'm a very analytical kind of person, it's hard for me to understand and practice UP fully, there's not enough "how-to's" in the book, I wish someone told me "Do this, say that",it will make it so much easier. But like someone said before, UP is not like any other parenting book...

I'll keep checking this thread daily, I'm sure that reading about your experiences will help me practice UP better


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
You are right, I apologize

I intend to raise my child the UP way, it's just hard to change the way one thinks without asking and analyzing. I'm a very analytical kind of person, it's hard for me to understand and practice UP fully, there's not enough "how-to's" in the book, I wish someone told me "Do this, say that",it will make it so much easier. But like someone said before, UP is not like any other parenting book...

I'll keep checking this thread daily, I'm sure that reading about your experiences will help me practice UP better

I understand that. I also am analytical and constantly question my approach, and am hesitant of getting stuck in a 'this is the only right way to do it' attitude. I come across so much 'mainstream' parenting every day (as so many of us, no doubt) that I find I need to have it really straight in my head, what I'm doing and why. I also struggle to not worry about 'spoiling', but I find it helpful to examine my thoughts and where they come from - they usually aren't MY real concerns, but old tapes playing from my parents and other members of society. When I come back to the genuine joy of my relat with my son, and remember the long-term project of helping him stay authentic in himself, that stuff seems less important.

Joanna, have you read 'Raising our children, raising ourselves' by Naomi ALdort? For me, this really helped to make UP more practical, and give me solid ideas on how to apply it. I love Kohn's book, but I think the two books complement each other and provide for different levels of understanding (as has been mentioned on this thread a page or two ago).


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I also struggle to not worry about 'spoiling', but I find it helpful to examine my thoughts and where they come from - they usually aren't MY real concerns, but old tapes playing from my parents and other members of society. *When I come back to the genuine joy of my relat with my son*, and remember the long-term project of helping him stay authentic in himself, *that stuff seems less important*.

Joanna, have you read 'Raising our children, raising ourselves' by Naomi ALdort? For me, this really helped to make UP more practical, and give me solid ideas on how to apply it. I love Kohn's book, but I think the two books complement each other and provide for different levels of understanding (as has been mentioned on this thread a page or two ago).

(my bolding)

Those old tapes are hard to get past. When that's all we've known, it's very difficult to come up with different ways of doing things. I second the recommendation for Naomi Aldort's book. I read that one before I read UP and I really liked it. It has a lot of practical examples of ways of handling situations. It felt very unnatural to me at first but after a while I started to get the hang of it. Sometimes I still forget and revert back to my old ways but I'm able to recognize that a lot more quickly and correct myself.

I do a lot of things that even my mother, who was very permissive (not the same as UP, imo), thinks are spoiling. I've seen, though, that how that's not the case. I get a lot of comments from people about how well-behaved my children are. My children get a lot of compliments (and very surprised looks) from adults because they are so well-behaved and polite and caring and compassionate. I get asked all the time what I do to make them that way. One woman (who gives her children lots of medications for behavior) asked me what kind of pill I was doling out to them. They don't know how to respond when I say that I pretty much let my children do whatever they want.

It helps me to keep in mind that children want to be healthy, feel good, do the right thing. They just need to be given the chance to do it. With a lot of things that many conventional parents would call spoiling or bending over backward to please the child, it's because the child is pretty much at the mercy of the adults around him. Going back to the missing dinner example, if an adult gets home late and misses dinner, she has the full capability of getting herself something to eat. Children do not. They need adults to do some of those things for them. So, while mom or dad may not go about preparing another full dinner for the child who has missed the family dinner, s/he can lovingly provide food for that child to eat.

I really like the part I bolded about joy. That's what's important to me these days. I want joy in my life and in my relationships today. I spent a lot of years parenting my oldest ds the conventional way. It was a constant struggle. I was always trying to teach him how to behave so he wouldn't be a horrible person when he grew up. A lot of my difficulty comes from fear of the future. Because of my fear of the future, I missed the chance to enjoy the present with him. There's no way I can predict what will happen at some future time. I don't even know if any of us will have a future time. So, I want to enjoy my life and my children at this moment.


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## joanna0707

thank you all, this discussion is wonderful, how I wish I knew someone who thinks alike in the real world...

I will definitely read Naomi Aldort's book, already ordered from amazon


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## Devaya

MarineWife, that is so reassuring to hear that your children have responded so well to this kind of parenting. Because I don't know anyone who parents like this IRL, I need that kind of information







to help 'keep the faith'. What you said about how we can operate out of fear of the future, or be in the present with our children, also reminded me of another point related to my recent post (and the resulting discussion) about whether children need to know what's next, i.e. have a lot of routine: I think children are more 'in the moment' than us, and that it can be a bit of a projection to think they need that absolute certainty of what exactly 's happening next - I think WE sometimes need that, and feel anxious if we don't, and that's why parenting can be such a challenge to our notions of control. But actually, as another poster pointed out, there is a continuum along which children are placed in terms of how much routine they need, and it's all about finding out what the individual needs, rather than making blanket statements.

And thanks, everyone, for your useful responses to my question about the need for routine. A lot of food for thought there. I do appreciate that a childcare provider needs more structure than a mom at home b/c she has to manage the needs of a lot of kids, and get some things done, but it was the statements about 'what kids need in general' that this woman made, that worried me....instead of just admitting, hey, this makes it easier and more manageable for me. Like you, Marine Wife, I don't want DS in that kind of 'stifling' environment. JMHO. I also remembered that my son has been described as 'such an ecstatic child', amongst other things, and people are often amazed at how happy, gregarious and confident he is. I don't want him to lose that just in an effort to get him to fit in in some way, and kill his spirit. But he is definitely more of 'everything' than a lot of kids I see, and reading the book 'Raising your spirited child' has helped to validate that for me, although unfortunately it's also got some ideas that aren't very UP at all.

I was talking a lot about UP today with two friends who I don't see often, but am close to - one is 3 mo pregnant and the other has a 21 month old. They're very open to new ideas. I was explaining about my approach (because they asked), and my friend (mother of the other toddler) said that she's very interested in my approach, but she also wants her child to be able to socialise and be socially acceptable - i.e. not be 'a brat' in public, and she described how her niece can't be taken to a restaurant b/c she behaves so 'badly' (from what she's said before, her niece is definitely not raised UP).

I said I think that only happens when a child has not been included in normal life (as a lot don't seem to be) and doesn't have opportunities to learn from watching what we do, and perhaps b/c some needs,e.g. attention or being included, aren't being met, meets those needs by acting out in some way. We were then in a cafe and the 2 toddlers were running around (in a contained fashion, near our table) and making at times a lot of exuberant noise, and we were getting dirty looks and sighs from nearby people, one of whom actually got up from her chair more than once and started coming towards us (obviously to complain), but then stopped when they quietened down again. I felt the pressure to 'sssh' my son and I must admit I did so, as gently as I could, but it occurred to me that so much of what we're trying to do in parenting this way, is made so hard by living in such a non-child-friendly society. My other friend lives in Italy now and described how all the children stay up as late as the grownups, and play and are loud and do whatever around them, in restaurants or whatever, and if someone was disapproving of it THEY'D be the one who got dirty looks - i.e. it's just so relaxed and children are completely integrated into the society. I feel sad that it's not like that in the UK and US (and loads of other places probably). Anyway, just a thought!


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:

I said I think that only happens when a child has not been included in normal life (as a lot don't seem to be) and doesn't have opportunities to learn from watching what we do, and perhaps b/c some needs,e.g. attention or being included, aren't being met, meets those needs by acting out in some way.
I really agree with the above, which is why I was so surprised just now when I was reading RAising OUr Children and Aldort has several paragraphs dedicated to suggesting that babies should not be brought along on various errands like grocery trips, etc. because it isn't meeting their needs. I feel like when I include dd in the various day-to-day outings she learns how to be in public through modeling and opportunity. This is the first point I've found myself disagreeing with in RoC, so I guess that is not a big deal.

Quote:

My other friend lives in Italy now and described how all the children stay up as late as the grownups, and play and are loud and do whatever around them, in restaurants or whatever, and if someone was disapproving of it THEY'D be the one who got dirty looks - i.e. it's just so relaxed and children are completely integrated into the society. I feel sad that it's not like that in the UK and US (and loads of other places probably). Anyway, just a thought!
I love this!

Quote:

I want joy in my life and in my relationships today. I spent a lot of years parenting my oldest ds the conventional way. It was a constant struggle. I was always trying to teach him how to behave so he wouldn't be a horrible person when he grew up. A lot of my difficulty comes from fear of the future. Because of my fear of the future, I missed the chance to enjoy the present with him. There's no way I can predict what will happen at some future time. I don't even know if any of us will have a future time. So, I want to enjoy my life and my children at this moment.
This is such a wonderful point. I even found myself quoting you (marinewife) today in a discussion with a friend. Fear of the future is a big one for me, on many levels, so I'm trying hard to keep this in mind.


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## MarineWife

Wow! This really is a great discussion. I'm going to work my way backward.

I don't remember that part in ROC. I think it's important to include children in as much of our regular, daily lives as we can. They do learn from us and what we do. I homeschool as well and I get the socialization question a lot. I think my children learn all they need to know about how to be kind and considerate and compassionate and do things in a group and all that sort of stuff by just being included in the family life. I don't isolate them from others, either. They learn to stay in line and wait their turns when we go to the store or to a carnival. There are a lot of "socialization" behaviors that are exhibited in school environments that I do NOT want my children to learn, like teasing and constant competition and that sort of thing.

I think maybe what Aldort was getting at was taking a baby for a 3 hour shopping trip and expecting the baby (or even a child in this matter) to be quiet and calm and not any trouble the entire time. I also think a baby does not necessarily need to be included in those sorts of things so soon because they just aren't equiped to deal with it yet.

One thing about being socially acceptable is that, if children are treated with respect and kindness and consideration, that's how they will treat others, on an age-appropriate level. I agree that the US Western society does not accept this. Society thinks children should be seen and not heard. I think we need to do more to accommodate children rather than expecting children to accommodate us. The fact that conventionally parented children can't be taken out in public because they behave like "brats" is a great testament to the idea that that type of parenting does not get the results that are wanted. It does, however, give adults a feeling of power and control. Children who are controlled and intimidated tend to become out of control any chance they get. On the flip side, children who are allowed to have power and control over themselves don't need to try to grab power and control by any means necessary at any chance they get.

That makes me think back to the kids I had staying with us for a few days. They are extremely controlled and have absolutely no power over themselves or their lives. Their parents also complain continuously about how poorly behaved they are. The parents marveled over the fact that my 5 and 2yo sat at a table and ate all their food. They wanted to know how we got the kids to do that as their 4 kids were running around the room yelling and screaming and just being wild. Of course, my thinking on that is that since we don't force our children to sit down and eat everything on their plates when we decide they should, but rather allow them to eat when, what and however much they want, they sit and eat because they are genuinely hungry and want to eat what is on their plates.


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
My other friend lives in Italy now and described how all the children stay up as late as the grownups, and play and are loud and do whatever around them, in restaurants or whatever, and if someone was disapproving of it THEY'D be the one who got dirty looks - i.e. it's just so relaxed and children are completely integrated into the society.

When DS was 13 months we took him to Europe, and it was really interesting to see how differently people there responded to him than Americans at home. I get dirty looks at home when DS makes a peep in a restaurant, or wants to walk around. The Italians were particularly fond of children. I remember seeing a large Italian family in a restaurant one night. There was a toddler asleep in a stroller, and when he woke up towards the end of the meal he was passed around and cooed over, then put in someone's lap to eat some leftover pasta. At one point he dropped his bottle and completely FREAKED out, screaming and crying hysterically. None of the adults at the table even blinked, and the only people in the restaurant who seemed disturbed were the obvious American tourists. The waiter retrieved the bottle, cooed at the toddler in Italian babyspeak while he cleaned it off (making a big show of pouring some bottled water over the nipple to rinse it off), and handed it back with a pat on the head. The attitude of everyone was that this is the way toddlers are, so why worry? It was really interesting.

At another point on that trip, we took DS to a winebar and let him wander about in a corner while we drank some wine. The other patrons smiled and waved at him, and gave friendly winks to us. The bartender picked DS up and took him behind the bar to show him all the shiny stuff. DS was carried back to us chewing on a wine glass! We were apologetic about causing any trouble by letting DS wander around, but the bartender said, "Oh, no, he's doing his job. This is what he is supposed to do!" Can you imagine getting that response in an American bar?

Interestingly, the only time we ever got strange looks in Europe was when we let DS (who was not yet walking) crawl around on the ground in public squares. People looked at us like we were insane, LOL. But then I looked around and realized children were kept in strollers until they were waling. No crawlers in sight. Even in the airport when we were headed home, Italian women came up to me to tell me how dirty the floor was, and that I shouldn't let my son crawl on it!


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## joanna0707

I used to leave in Italy few years back, I didn't have children yet so I never paid attention to the way Italians treat children. They are very warm people so I'm not surprised to hear your stories.

Today was one of the hardest days since DS was born. Although he's already 22 mo he has only ten teeth and is teething now. I hardly got any sleep today. In addition DS didn't nap because he was so uncomfortable. The whole day was just a nightmare. He was throwing things, food, hitting the dog, crying for no reason. I just felt like such a failure because I didn't know how to handle DS today without telling him "we don't hit" "we don't throw food", in general without lots of "no's". I did hug him a lot, this helped him to calm down a little.
What else could I have done or say?


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## mckennasmomma

2 words: baby motrin.


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## MarineWife

Wouldn't it be so nice if the USA had that kind of attitude toward children. Like I have read about children in other societies that are treated with care and compassion and respect, there is a trickle down effect. Adults are nice to teenagers. Teenagers are nice to preteens. Preteens help take care of toddlers and babies. The USA society is to mean from the top down that there's a cascade of meanness. It's really sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
"we don't hit" "we don't throw food"

These statements are kind of funny because, obviously, we do hit and throw food. To a very young child they might seem like lies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
What else could I have done or say?

I say things to my kids like, "be gentle", when petting the cat and demonstrate. I might explain in very short terms that it hurts the animal to be hit and show sympathy for the animal.

Food throwing is harder for me. I guess it would depend on why the child was throwing food and why you are upset about it. I think it can help if you explain, again in very short terms, that it makes a mess that you have to spend time cleaning up. Just make sure you don't say it in a mean or resentful way. Remove the food and say something like, "It looks to me like you are done eating." Give the child food that isn't a big problem if it gets thrown. If you are in the mood for being very accommodating, maybe you could find a place where he could throw food, outside maybe.

If you don't want to give your child medicine, you could try Hyland's teething tablets. They are homeopathic. I can find them in the Walgreen's drugstore. Some people say they didn't work for their child but they really seemed to help mine. I did resort to acetaminophen or ibuprofen if things were really bad. Ibuprofen was good for nights because it lasts longer.


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## MarineWife

I started reading UP again last night. I skipped to the section on unconditional parenting. A few things I've made not of already. Kohn says that there are times when we, as parents, do have to put our foot down, which may make our children unhappy with us in the moment. The idea is to decide whether the issue at hand is worth the strain on the relationship at that time.

I've got 2 examples of that. The first is that my 5yo really, really wants a puppy. I love dogs and would also love to have a dog. However, from past experience, I know I'm not the greatest at taking care of dogs. I already feel like I have enough to do without adding one more thing to the mix. My 5yo, of course, says he will take care of the puppy but we all know he won't be able to do it all the time. I know I will be stuck feeding and walking the dog a lot. In addition, there is the added expense that we really can't afford right now. $200 vet bills every couple of months is just not doable. I have to get him the dog now, though, because I told him I would. I kind of wish I had just put my foot down about that one.

The second is bedtime. Like I said, we don't have a set bedtime but we do usually gravitate to the bedroom around 9 pm and we are off to sleep with the lights out by 11 pm. Many nights I get up after the boys are asleep to get some relaxing time to myself when I can knit and/or watch TV or read a book without interruption. That's really the only time I get it right now. The problem is that I am then up way too late and don't get enough sleep. This, in turn, makes me more irritable during the day and less able to handle situations with the kids.

I also get very annoyed with the bedtime routine. I don't mind sitting up in bed and watching TV for a bit but my kids continue to run and jump around making all kinds of noise while I'm trying to relax and settle in. I usually eventually get very annoyed and angry about this and then bedtimes aren't pleasant. I thought last night that I should try going to bed with the boys but not try to do anything else during that time. I usually take my knitting with me so I have something to do while they watch their TV shows, which bore me. I'm torn between leaving things the way they are because the kids are happy with it and just setting a rule that the lights go out and we go to sleep at 10 pm. My 5yo will fuss but he usually goes to sleep very quickly once I turn out the lights.

Oh, and I thought of something else. WRT the example of the toddler who kicks while being changed. When we change the way we approach situations, that doesn't mean the other person's response will change instantly. That other person is used to our old ways and will continue to expect and respond to those old ways. It will take some time for them to realize that we truly have changed and they don't need to continue what they've been doing.


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## joanna0707

Today was much better, I think the worst is over, at least for now. I'm a big believer in homeopathy, DS got over flu and ear infections with just homeopathic remedies this past winter, same goes for me and my husband. I gave DS Chamomilla 30C, which usually works great for teething, not yesterday though, it was not the right remedy. Will buy Hyland's tablet and try them next time, thank you for the advice.

MarineWife, your kids are homeschooled, right? If the bedtime routine works fine for your kids why change it? They don't have to be up early... Unless it really annoys you than I would try, you can always go back to the old routine if it doesn't work out.
DS is usually in bed by 8 o'clock, we are up early. He'll be starting preschool soon so I try to keep it consistent, don't want to fight with him later, when I'll need him up early in the morning.

I noticed that for some reason throwing things drives me crazy, I always try to stop DS when he does it. Today for example he started throwing shoes when it was time to get ready and leave. He usually just takes his shoes from the closet and sits on the bench ready to put them on. Not today. I stopped him saying that we don't have time for that. Tomorrow I'll let him do it if he wants, I'll see how it ends,maybe he'll get bored after a while.
I think DS knows I don't like it when he throws things, maybe this is the reason why he is doing it a lot lately. I should probably join in sometimes and throw things with him







:


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
Today was much better, I think the worst is over, at least for now. I'm a big believer in homeopathy, DS got over flu and ear infections with just homeopathic remedies this past winter, same goes for me and my husband. I gave DS Chamomilla 30C, which usually works great for teething, not yesterday though, it was not the right remedy. Will buy Hyland's tablet and try them next time, thank you for the advice.

MarineWife, your kids are homeschooled, right? If the bedtime routine works fine for your kids why change it? They don't have to be up early... Unless it really annoys you than I would try, you can always go back to the old routine if it doesn't work out.
DS is usually in bed by 8 o'clock, we are up early. He'll be starting preschool soon so I try to keep it consistent, don't want to fight with him later, when I'll need him up early in the morning.

I noticed that for some reason throwing things drives me crazy, I always try to stop DS when he does it. Today for example he started throwing shoes when it was time to get ready and leave. He usually just takes his shoes from the closet and sits on the bench ready to put them on. Not today. I stopped him saying that we don't have time for that. Tomorrow I'll let him do it if he wants, I'll see how it ends,maybe he'll get bored after a while.

I think DS knows I don't like it when he throws things, maybe this is the reason why he is doing it a lot lately. I should probably join in sometimes and throw things with him







:

Hyland's might just be chamomilla. I can't remember. Since you are into homeopathy, I have an off-topic question. My allergies are killing. I'm allergic to grass and I guess the count is really high right now. I haven't checked lately. Anyway, my right ear is so clogged (been like this for over 2 years now) that I can't hear. It hurts and makes a scraping sound when I open my jaw. My eyes are watery and goopy and itchy. I do use Similisan allergy eye drops and they help but I don't know what to take for the sinus congestion. I've tried bee pollen but that didn't help. I tried some herbal tinctures that an acupuncturist gave me but they didn't help. That might be because I am supposed to take them 3 times a day and I'm likely if I remember to take them once. I'm terrible about taking stuff regularly. I've been the to some docs but all they do is prescribe things like Clarinex or Zyrtec and sudaphed. The pharmacist said all of those are contraindicated while breastfeeding. Do you have any ideas?

Ok, back to the topic. The time that we go to sleep isn't what bothers me. You're right that since we homeschool we don't have to be up at any particular time and we can sleep pretty much whenever we want during the day so there are no worries about them being sleep-deprived. The thing that bothers me is that when we go to bed I want to be able to sit and relax and have some quiet but they are still jumping all over the place. That wouldn't even be so bad if they didn't fight constantly. My 5yo likes to do things by himself and, of course, his little brother wants to do everything he does with him. I tried not taking my knitting with me to bed last night so I was totally focused on the boys and things were a lot nicer. There wasn't all the yelling and fighting so maybe they just needed my attention.

Maybe you could examine why you dislike your ds throwing things so much. Is there a fear behind that dislike? Were you harshly reprimanded or punished for throwing things as a child? Was there an incident when someone got hurt or something important got broken from something being thrown? Is the fear reasonable and justified?

I was just reading in UP about using, "No," too much. One of the things it says is that a lot of the safety issues that parents come up with for saying no are not really justified. Children would be better served if we trusted them enough to give them the room to explore these supposedly dangerous things in a safe way and place. It sounds like you're figuring out ways to do that with your ds.

I learned about that a while ago when getting into radical unschooling. If anyone is interested, John Holt's books are great for that. I think they can be applied to how we treat our children whether they are unschooled or not. The one I've read so far is, _Teach Your Own_. Holt talks in there about allowing very young children to play with sharp knives. Someone (maybe it was him) was into throwing knives as an art (or whatever it is) and allowed his children to do it from the time they became interested. Because they were shown how to handle knives safely and allowed to explore it in a safe environment they were very careful with them. I've had people give me big eyed stares when I allowed my 4-5yo ds to handle the steak knives at restaurants. I knew he'd be careful and safe with them and he was.

Did you all see that story in the news a while ago about the mother her allowed her 10yo ds to ride the New York subway by himself? People were up in arms about it. How could she let him do that? It was too dangerous. He did it, though, safely and got home without incident. I think that sort of thing teaches all of us a very valuable lesson. We can either treat our children in a way that makes them fear the world and, therefore, become victims, or we can treat our children in a way that conveys that they have the power within themselves to protect and care for themselves so that they will not allow themselves to be victims. Does that make sense?

I've written too much, again. Sorry, everyone, for always posting novels for you to try to get through. I tend to be a bit long-winded.


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## Moonchild77

Hi everyone,

I just recieved UP and will start reading...

I already read Sears, Adventures in tandem and Gentle DIsp, Mothering your nursing toddler and How children learn, from Holt.

My ds1 is 3.5 y and ds2 is 9 mo.

I am so rigid, this last half year ( :-( ) with ds1, I was not so before ds2!
I want compliance all the time :-( , fight with him (.....) he disobies a lot...
(sorry, am Dutch, and NAK, so typos!)
I want to be unconditional!

He and I are somewhat "lost", with each other, I want to regain his trust and that he knows, he is loved and that we will "come back"to the love from before.
I was so lost, when ds2 was born, that I lost ds1, that he was not my little boy anymore, I almost disliked ds2 for it! But I realized: I LOVED ds1, I KNEW him already almost 3 y and I was IN LOVE/Infactuation with ds2, and those 2 feelings were overwhelming me! :-(

Now, I just hope, ds1 and I will be okay again.... will we? If I work hard, will we find ourselves again? He does love me, I know, but he sometimes KNOWS I will say no, no no to something and he starts testing me, where as before, he almost could do anything always and he DID not test me!

Am I making myself clear? Are my fears weird? Will we get better??









TIA


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## joanna0707

Oh, don't apologize, I love to read your novels Marine Wife









I think your allergies may require a constitutional remedy and this one must be prescribed by homeopth, it usually is given in very high potency, this isn't something I'm comfortable to experiment with since they can have some side effects. I usually use low potencies without consulting our homeopath, I don't always get it right though and need to call him from time to time.
I will check Materia Medica tonite when DS is asleep, maybe there is a remedy you could try before consulting a doctor.

Now about the knives, did you read "Continuum Concept" ? Liedloff writes about very small children playing with knives, they are shown how to handle sharp objects and never harm themselves.
DS strted eating with a fork when he was 10 mo, everyone was warning us that he'll poke his eyes out. Well, he never did and he's eating with a fork beautifuly now







:

I never had any bad experiences with throwing, at least I don't remeber anything bad happening. I think I'm mostly worried DS will break something or hurt someone or scratch the wall and such. I'm not sure how to handle this when we are around kids. The other day he threw a stuffed animal into a small girls head, she was really scared. I tried to explain how scary it is for other children and it hurts and it makes them sad. He wasn't even paying attention to me


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## Devaya

Really interesting discussion - loving this thread! I felt quite annoyed about the way everyone was up in arms at that boy allowed to travel on his own - I thought, wow, his mom has trust in him, and that is something really lacking in our paranoic society.

Something that's really concerning me at the moment is this, and I don't know if I might get more responses elsewhere, but here goes: I have to (reluctantly) give up SAHM-hood and work part time due to being a newly single parent. I haven't time to find 'the perfect nanny' or anything like that right now, though in the long term I can certainly interview and look for her, and am starting that process. I don't want group care for my son, he's too young (IMO. he's 22 months), and after my recent day in the childminding scenario, that I posted about, I'm rather put off it anyway. So I've come up with a solution of sorts of doing a swop with another mom I know (not very well). She would be looking after my son 5 hours a week, and I'll look after hers for the same. We've had two 'trial runs' this week and the one at my house went fine - the one at her house yesterday, left me feeling very uncomfortable, and now I don't know what to do. It .

I wrote all about 'raising our children, raising ourselves' on my blog, that this mother reads, and she told me she read it and thought 'oh I do all of that instinctively without needing to read a book'. And I just thought...well, no, you don't. Basically, when we were at her house, there was a typical incident around sharing, and the way she handled it was rather OTT. She just wouldn't let it go. She really lectured my son , saying 'this is Bob's (her son) toy, and he's nicely let you play with it, and now it's time to give it back' and just kept laying on the guilt, IMO. She didn't try to redirect him or find an alternative, just kept insisting, and of course my DS, being a very 'spirited child', just dug his heels in deeper and got more and more upset. I felt under such pressure to do something to resolve the situation and not look like a permissive mom, (esp b.c I felt wrong-footed as I was in HER home), I still tried to hang back and let him resolve it himself, giving him verbal validation for how hard it was for him to share. I mean, as far as I understand it, it takes until 4 or 5 to even learn to share completely - and even then it can be a problem! So eventually I just took the toy off him, he then had a complete huge tantrum and I felt so embarrassed b/c this woman was just saying 'bye, bye now' to us all fake cheerful (we were about to leave - that's another thing DS struggles with - transitions), I had to carry him out the door rather than let him work through it there, and it just felt all wrong.

I also didn't like the way she said things like 'Ooh, you have a very loud voice, Mike,' to my little one when he'd be shouting exuberantly (not aggressively), a few times, and 'That's a very loud noise, Mike,' etc...I don't know, it just seemed disapproving, and I would pick that up if I was a kid. I think her child is not 'spirited' at all, he is very 'chilled' and my DS is very intense, strong-willed, very happy and gregarious but also very passionate in every way. I wonder if people who don't have a spirited kind of child (or high needs or whatever you call it) can really understand those who are - I think sometimes they just think the child is 'naughty', 'spoiled' or out of control. And all these thoughts are running thru my head.

I did say to the mom, before all this, that I don't do things like 'naughty step' (time out) and she knows my approach is attachment parenting, continuum concept, gentle discipline etc. I've been very clear about that. But sometimes I think people just don't really get it. She also 'good boys' a fair bit, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't around here - even my most AP, wonderful parent friends do a LOT of praise.

Anyway, I hope this is all making sense...I might post something on the 'spirited kids tribe' over in 'parenting' forum as well...but I just know you guys understand about UP and thought I could get some insight into how much I can expect others to treat my child unconditionally, if at all. Am I making a big deal about 5 hours a week? I considered maybe chatting to her about it and just saying I felt uncomfortable, but I'm uneasy about doing so. I don't know her very well. I just remember, when I was in school, one or two teachers who gave me the feeling that the way I WAS, was 'wrong' somehow...well, it really stuck with me. And maybe as a result I'm a bit overprotective.


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## mckennasmomma

moonchild77-
yes, you will reconnect. the fact that you are recognizing right now that things have gone off track shows that you will find your way back on to the track that you want to be on with your kids. it will take time, but that is what this journey is all about.

devaya-
i can totally relate to having issues with the way other people around you parent and to feeling "backed in to a corner" like that. i think UP and RoC would both say that you need to stick up for your son in that situation, so that he knows you have his back. In practice/reality though, that is a very tenuous thing as you don't want to insult this person nor burn the bridge of swapping childcare. There must be some sort of middle ground, but I don't know what it is. The only thing I can think of is to lead by example, and in that particular situation step in and do for your son whatever it is he needs at that moment (such as finding something else for him to play with maybe).

I do think though that we will NEVER meet others who parent exactly the way we want to, (heck, WE don't even parent exactly the way we want to, right?) and for 5 hours a week on a semi-temporary basis...I don't think you should sweat it. You will continue to give your son unconditional parenting when he is with you, and that is the most important part.


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## MarineWife

Devaya ~ I say go with your gut on the childcare thing. Although an irregular babysitter who behaves that way toward your child might not make much difference, I think a regular one who is put in more of a position of caregiver to your child could be harmful. In the short run, it's probably ok to stick with it in a pinch if you have no other options. But if you have time, I think it would be a good idea to look for someone else.

moonchild ~ You will reconnect with your child and get that love feeling back if you work at it. I went through a similar thing when my ds3 was born. DS2 was 3.5yo and it was very hard going from one LO (my ds1 was 16yo so he didn't require the same amount of attention) to 2. I still struggle with it sometimes and they are 2 and 5 now. It's hard to balance the needs of both children.


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## Devaya

Double post. Sorry, my PC is really playing up!


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## Devaya

Thanks, McKennasmomma and MarineWife. I am going to look for someone else. It's such a shame that the friends I have who are totally the way I like, with their children, or with my son, are not able to help because they're either heavily pregnant (with a toddler) or suffer from depression so can't be reliably available, or live somewhere else! It just seems cruel that the only person who's really up for helping (she's offered many times), is this person I just don't gel with. I mean, I had 'red flags' a few months ago when we got in a heated discussion about CIO and she'd decided to do it with her son (she was on the brink from sleep deprivation and felt she couldn't cope), I mean do I really want someone who does CIO looking after my son? How do I know she won't do that to him when it comes to nap time? ANyway thanks for listening to my long ramble!


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I mean do I really want someone who does CIO looking after my son? How do I know she won't do that to him when it comes to nap time?

That and, if she acted the way she did in front of you, I'd be worried about how she acts when no one else is there. Like a friend of mine said to me recently, if you yell at your kids in public, I wonder how you act at home with them behind closed to doors. That's not to say that we don't all have bad days when we don't act the way, publicly or privately, the way we want but I think you have to be extra cautious with other people.

That makes me think of the recent situation I was in. I took emergency kinship care of 4 children because their mom got arrested and their dad was deployed. For whatever reason, their mom asked me to take her kids. She was a very respected person in our community. She held a professional position of authority. Although she did not parent the way I do, she seemed to genuinely care about her kids, 3 of whom were adopted, and her family. I had enough red flags to know that she was not someone I would voluntarily leave my children with but I never thought she was doing anything abusive to her children. Her kids were taken away from her because she was sexually abusing her 9yo dd (from the age of 5-6yo) and physically abusing her 11yo ds (he showed me burns from matches on his body that he said his mother did). I am so glad I listened to my gut about her because when I was going through my miscarriage just a few weeks ago she offered to take my kids for a couple of hours or even overnight so I could get some rest to help with physical recovery.

It will probably be very difficult to find a regular childcare person who parents the way that you do following the recommendations in UP. Although I'm not a fan of institutionalized childcare, I always felt more comfortable leaving my oldest son in a daycare center with several adults rather than with a single person in her private home. I felt like that gave the other people more accountability. He always liked his daycare places. It wasn't until he started school that he began to have problems.

AFM, this has started out as one of those days when UP is difficult for me. My 2yo is being a holy terror. First, he dumped his cereal all over the carpeted floor. Then he dumped his yogurt all over the sofa. Next he shook chocolate milk out of a sippy cup onto the carpet, all in rapid succession. I also have difficulty with him when he wants to play with his older bro but big bro wants to be left alone. DS3 will not leave ds2 alone. He will not be distracted. I don't know what to do in those situations. It's not fair to make ds2 deal with it but neither of us seem to be able to get ds3 to stop. Eventually, ds2 gets so frustrated that he screams at and hits or pushes or kicks ds3. I can't really blame him. What do I do?


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:

AFM, this has started out as one of those days when UP is difficult for me. My 2yo is being a holy terror. First, he dumped his cereal all over the carpeted floor. Then he dumped his yogurt all over the sofa. Next he shook chocolate milk out of a sippy cup onto the carpet, all in rapid succession. I also have difficulty with him when he wants to play with his older bro but big bro wants to be left alone. DS3 will not leave ds2 alone. He will not be distracted. I don't know what to do in those situations. It's not fair to make ds2 deal with it but neither of us seem to be able to get ds3 to stop. Eventually, ds2 gets so frustrated that he screams at and hits or pushes or kicks ds3. I can't really blame him. What do I do?
I only have a second to write...but marinewife, could you think back and figure out what circumstances usually lead to ds3 pestering ds2 and try to find ways to avoid those circumstances? For example, maybe it is late in the day and everyone needs to get outside and play to burn off some energy?


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
I only have a second to write...but marinewife, could you think back and figure out what circumstances usually lead to ds3 pestering ds2 and try to find ways to avoid those circumstances? For example, maybe it is late in the day and everyone needs to get outside and play to burn off some energy?

The circumstances are that ds3 wants to play with ds2 but ds2 needs a lot of alone time. ds3 is only 2 so he doesn't understand when he needs to stop. he's just infatuated with big bro and wants to do everything big bro does. DS2 refuses to go to another room if he wants to be alone. I don't think it's fair to always expect him to do that, either.

I wanted to come back on after I posted that but didn't have time until now. I know that ds3 does not have bad intentions when he does these things. He's just trying to find his way. I need to pay more attention and make sure I take care of things before I change my focus to something else but I sometimes forget. For example, putting the yogurt up before I went to the bathroom and making sure that ds2's cup of chocolate milk was up where ds3 couldn't get to it would've avoided those problems. I can't always think of everything for everyone.


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## OGirlieMama

I'm going back a ways because I've been on vacation and not reading this thread...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Me again. Here's the title of that book I mentioned. "Backtalk: 4 Steps to Ending Rude Behavior in Your Kids," by Audrey Ricker and Carolyn Crowder. The ideas and theories in this book seem ok but the example maybe aren't that great. That may be because they are coming from a mainstream perspective, assuming that all parents consider themselves in charge. I think that maybe it's a "take what you need and leave the rest" sort of thing.

Here's another example that might be more pertinent. A child is spending the night at a friend's. She's spent the entire time listening to her friend talk in nasty way to her parents. At one point the friend tells the child to call her parents and tell them to bring their VCR over because her's is broken. The child calls her parents and demands that they bring the VCR. They say they were going to use it later. She says that too bad because she and her friend want it so they have to bring it to her now. The parents tell the girl to get her stuff packed because they are coming to get her and they do. That seems like a reasonable and logical consequence. They do not punish the child anymore once they are home.


That example, to me, doesn't sound UP or reasonable at all, to me. And I don't think it would have the desired result: making the daughter ask politely next time she wants a favor. I think it would just have the result of making her angry and embarrassed and think her parents are mean. Her perception becomes her reality.

And semi-related, I think the biggest hurdle for me is remembering that UP isn't going to get me "quick results." A UP approach isn't going to get my kids to never act out or to immediately change their behavior. What I hope it will do is instill in them the knowledge of what is an appropriate and respectful way to treat other people, and let them know that they are loved and respected even when they are angry, obnoxious, and inappropriate. It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's really hard to remember that on days when the 50-yard dash involves screaming, whining, kicking, and hitting!

On another front, sometimes it all feels hopeless because there is so much outside influence. We were at the library today, and a 5-6-year-old boy was taking all the legos off the lego table in the play area and throwing them all over the place. Katie (3.5) was sitting next to me on the sofa, looked aghast (oh yeah, Miss Innocent







) and said "That is not a good boy!" I was pretty mortified, and he turned around and said "I am, too!" at which point his mother realized what he was doing and made him put it all back. I quietly told Katie that he wasn't a bad boy, he was just doing something that's not appropriate (they are *really* into that word), and we don't call people "good" or "bad" because it's not very kind. I hope I didn't confuse her. And man, talk about awkward moments!


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
That example, to me, doesn't sound UP or reasonable at all, to me. And I don't think it would have the desired result: making the daughter ask politely next time she wants a favor. I think it would just have the result of making her angry and embarrassed and think her parents are mean. Her perception becomes her reality.

Yeah, after getting not too much further into that book I put it down. It is not UP at all and I do not recommend it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
On another front, sometimes it all feels hopeless because there is so much outside influence. We were at the library today, and a 5-6-year-old boy was taking all the legos off the lego table in the play area and throwing them all over the place. Katie (3.5) was sitting next to me on the sofa, looked aghast (oh yeah, Miss Innocent







) and said "That is not a good boy!" I was pretty mortified, and he turned around and said "I am, too!" at which point his mother realized what he was doing and made him put it all back. I quietly told Katie that he wasn't a bad boy, he was just doing something that's not appropriate (they are *really* into that word), and we don't call people "good" or "bad" because it's not very kind. I hope I didn't confuse her. And man, talk about awkward moments!









We have to deal with that a lot, too. I've just been reading again the section in UP that covers praise. I don't use the good and bad labels but I do find myself telling ds when he does something nice or helpful. I say thank you to him a lot. I do genuinely mean it. I also point out why whatever it is is appreciated or that someone he did something for (he likes to hold doors for people, for example) seemed to really appreciate it. Maybe I should stop doing that?


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Yeah, after getting not too much further into that book I put it down. It is not UP at all and I do not recommend it.

Good to know!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
We have to deal with that a lot, too. I've just been reading again the section in UP that covers praise. I don't use the good and bad labels but I do find myself telling ds when he does something nice or helpful. I say thank you to him a lot. I do genuinely mean it. I also point out why whatever it is is appreciated or that someone he did something for (he likes to hold doors for people, for example) seemed to really appreciate it. Maybe I should stop doing that?

I think it's not just OK but essential to say thank you when they do something nice for you. You're modeling! And I think (and I'm sure someone will tell me if they disagree!) it's UP to point out why something is appreciated. I think you can mix it up with being manipulative, but if it's coming from a place of true gratitude and pleasure, I don't see it as such. How will he ever know that people appreciate someone holding the door for them if you don't thank him? Similarly, how will he learn to thank other people for holding the door otherwise?

It's when you start getting into the "Good job holding that door!" and "Good job not biting your sister when she took your toy!" area that I think it's manipulative and not UP. And I've certainly occasionally been guilty of that, but I try really hard to catch myself. Which sometimes ends up in some really really awkward praise-ish-non-praise-ish statements.


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## SpiderMum

I'm new to the thread and I just wanted some feedback on something:

My DD is almost 11-months-old so "discipline" really hasn't been an issue yet. I read UP and ADORED it, and thankfully DH is also on board with it, but I'm concerned about my family. My mother and aunt are both very involved with DD, but they're pretty "old-school" in their dealings with children. While I trust both of them not to spank DD if I make it clear that I'm not okay with that...I don't know how I'm going to get them to understand my UP stance. How do you deal with family in this situation? My mother in particular often babysits DD so I'm concerned about what will happen when DD starts "misbehaving".

I'm also getting frustrated with all the praise that is already being thrown around by friends, family, even complete strangers. These people are going to think I'm nuts! Which if fine, I don't care what they think of me...but I do care if they ignore me and treat my child in a way that I don't think is appropriate.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpiderMum* 
I'm new to the thread and I just wanted some feedback on something:

My DD is almost 11-months-old so "discipline" really hasn't been an issue yet. I read UP and ADORED it, and thankfully DH is also on board with it, but I'm concerned about my family. My mother and aunt are both very involved with DD, but they're pretty "old-school" in their dealings with children. While I trust both of them not to spank DD if I make it clear that I'm not okay with that...I don't know how I'm going to get them to understand my UP stance. How do you deal with family in this situation? My mother in particular often babysits DD so I'm concerned about what will happen when DD starts "misbehaving".

I'm also getting frustrated with all the praise that is already being thrown around by friends, family, even complete strangers. These people are going to think I'm nuts! Which if fine, I don't care what they think of me...but I do care if they ignore me and treat my child in a way that I don't think is appropriate.

I would start a discussion about UP and offer the book for them to read. Give them specific things to do or say instead of punishments, rewards and praise. If they refuse to respect how you want your own child to be treated, you may have to not let them care for her. I had to do that with my mother and oldest ds for a while because she told me flat out that she would not do the things I asked her to do (or not do) if she disagreed with me. With family, friends and strangers who don't have much contact with her, I wouldn't worry about.


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpiderMum* 
I'm also getting frustrated with all the praise that is already being thrown around by friends, family, even complete strangers. These people are going to think I'm nuts! Which if fine, I don't care what they think of me...but I do care if they ignore me and treat my child in a way that I don't think is appropriate.

I can totally commiserate. DS is 19 months, and it seems like everywhere we go, positive reinforcement abounds. We go to Gymboree and to a weekly Waterbabies swim lesson, both of which are mom-and-baby type things, so I'm always there to intervene. But still, the amount of "good job!"s that get thrown around is crazy. At Gymboree, I've even heard the music teacher tell my son "good steal!" when he swiped a musical instrument away from another toddler. I was a little o_0 at that one.

I love the swim school we go to, but it disturbs me that even the babies are given rewards for doing things they don't want to do. It's standard practice to give them gummy bears for going underwater for several seconds, for example. On days when DS has let me know in no uncertain terms that he does NOT want to go underwater, the teacher's response has been to say to him, "If you go underwater you can have a gummy bear!" *insert horrified expression here* So far I've been able to avoid the bribery by just saying no and sticking to my guns, but I'm the only parent in that class who does. At some point, is DS going to realize this and want a gummy bear for going underwater too? I'm struggling with how to handle this, because when he turns 2, I'm not going to be in the water with him any more. The goal is for him to learn to swim and enjoy it, and I'm uncomfortable that there seems to be so much bribery involved.

I know at some point I will have to make a decision about whether or not to say something, and so far I've been able to avoid it. But then I realize that when he goes to preschool in a couple of years this could be a huge issue, and then elementary school, and so on. I'm starting to realize what an uphill battle this could be. Kohn addresses this in UP and says that sometimes your child just has to learn to be conditionally accepted at school, sadly.

I work part-time and we have a wonderful nanny who has been with us for a year. She and I are completely on the same page with AP and UP parenting philosophies, and I guess I'm really lucky in that regard. but when I start to think about how most of the world operates, I can only hope that loving my son unconditionally at home will provide him with the support he needs to cope with the conditional stuff elsewhere.


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## joanna0707

One of my friends takes her DD to her room when she's having a tantrum and stays there with her until the girl calms down. She never leaves her alone. Do you think that it is OK to do this?
I did read somewhere that we can have our kids pick the place where they would like to go to calm dawn, where they can keep their toys, pillows, things that make them feel secure. I'm not sure what to think about it, is it OK to move tantruming children to a different spot even if they object? On the other hand tantruming child objects to everything


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
One of my friends takes her DD to her room when she's having a tantrum and stays there with her until the girl calms down. She never leaves her alone. Do you think that it is OK to do this?
I did read somewhere that we can have our kids pick the place where they would like to go to calm dawn, where they can keep their toys, pillows, things that make them feel secure. I'm not sure what to think about it, is it OK to move tantruming children to a different spot even if they object? On the other hand tantruming child objects to everything









If the child is disturbing others, I think it's ok to take the child to another room. I wish I could do this with my 5yo but I can't leave my 2yo alone. I don't see any reason to move the child to another place if she's not disturbing others, though. You can ask the child to sit with you on the couch or sit down with the child in the middle of the floor or on the stairs or wherever she is. The idea is to not isolate the child while she's expressing disturbing emotions or expressing her emotions in a disturbing way.


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## Malola

Hello, I have just join this forum and though I could do with some help re my 2 sons.

They are 4 and nearly 6 years old. Very good friends but unable to settle their differences without hitting. My 5yo wants to control what my 4yo does, including imaginary play that he is not involved with. My 4yo is now refusing to do what he is told by his big brother. And because the 5yo doesn't back down, he is hitting him. On the others side, the youngest has become excellent at ignoring his brother so the 5yo is getting frustating and is hitting his brother (because 'he is ignoring meeeeee').
In short, there is a point where they are totally unable to communicate and listen to each other.

How would you deal with it?


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## MarineWife

malola ~ That sounds like my 2 boys. They are 2 and 5. The only thing I can do at that point is separate them and create space for each of them to do their own things. I try to stay aware so that I can head things off before it gets to hitting but I'm not always able to do that. It seems they fight every few minutes. They can be playing nicely and change to fighting in a split second. That's probably not much help. I do try to talk to them about letting each other do their own things and how they can't make each other play the way they want. It's not ok unless they both agree to it. Of course, it's hard for my 2yo to agree because he doesn't usually understand what my 5yo wants. I think at these ages they just don't have the skills to deal with those types of situations without fighting, screaming, yelling and hitting. We have to go through this stage with them and help them learn along the way.


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## Malola

Thanks, that's what I do. I tend to separate them and send in 2 different rooms. They are 'allowed' to start playing together when they are not so angry that they feel they are ready to hit again. I leave that up to them. And it is sort of working.

When do you think that they can start learning to negociate?


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Malola* 
Thanks, that's what I do. I tend to separate them and send in 2 different rooms. They are 'allowed' to start playing together when they are not so angry that they feel they are ready to hit again. I leave that up to them. And it is sort of working.

When do you think that they can start learning to negociate?

I think that depends on the child. Some can do it sooner than others. Modeling the behavior for them will help. I'm not good at coming up with scenarios but, if you can intervene before things get too heated, you can help them learn to negotiate. One easy way I do that is to ask my 5yo if he has something that his little bro can do/play with when the little one is interfering with the big one. Sometimes he even does it on his own.


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
One of my friends takes her DD to her room when she's having a tantrum and stays there with her until the girl calms down. She never leaves her alone. Do you think that it is OK to do this?
I did read somewhere that we can have our kids pick the place where they would like to go to calm dawn, where they can keep their toys, pillows, things that make them feel secure. I'm not sure what to think about it, is it OK to move tantruming children to a different spot even if they object? On the other hand tantruming child objects to everything









My take on this is yes, because sometimes the current environment is overstimulating and they will be more able to calm down in a quieter place. Also, when they are a little older, they may feel embarrassed about their loss of control and it can be easier to calm down without an audience - this is the case for my son. He is an Aquarian and isolation is something he craves in certain amounts, but often when he is angry he really wants to be alone. He comes to me when he is ready to reach out or be comforted. According to my dp who is also Aquarian, this is a sign specific trait. I felt so guilty at first leaving him alone in his room, but it has made a huge difference in the duration of his upsets.


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
One of my friends takes her DD to her room when she's having a tantrum and stays there with her until the girl calms down. She never leaves her alone. Do you think that it is OK to do this?
I did read somewhere that we can have our kids pick the place where they would like to go to calm dawn, where they can keep their toys, pillows, things that make them feel secure. I'm not sure what to think about it, is it OK to move tantruming children to a different spot even if they object? On the other hand tantruming child objects to everything









I do this sometimes, too. There are times when I can just tell that she needs a change of scenery, and moving from the livingroom (where they play and where the tantrums usually happen) to their bedroom will make a difference. I don't dump her up there - I bring her upstairs, and sit down near her, and pretty much do whatever I would have done downstairs, only I think I have more of a chance of her calming down more quickly.

Sometimes, lately, Lilly has been screaming "GO AWAY!" during tantrums, and that is a challenge. I want to respect her desire to be alone, but I'm not always sure it's appropriate. Usually I compromise and either move across the room or just outside the door, and tell her that I'll come back if she wants me to.


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 

Sometimes, lately, Lilly has been screaming "GO AWAY!" during tantrums, and that is a challenge. I want to respect her desire to be alone, but I'm not always sure it's appropriate. Usually I compromise and either move across the room or just outside the door, and tell her that I'll come back if she wants me to.

I went through this too with Crispin, not verbally but rejecting my presence. It really did help him calm more quickly when I gave him his space.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
Sometimes, lately, Lilly has been screaming "GO AWAY!" during tantrums, and that is a challenge. I want to respect her desire to be alone, but I'm not always sure it's appropriate. Usually I compromise and either move across the room or just outside the door, and tell her that I'll come back if she wants me to.

I think it's just as important to respect a child's desire to be left alone as it is to be available to that child no matter what. My oldest ds was like this. When he got very angry or frustrated he wanted to be left alone. That was very hard for me to do because I wanted to help and comfort him. Forcing that on him, though, probably gave him the wrong message. First, I was still trying to control the situation. Second, it probably relayed the message that I didn't think he was capable of handling his feelings. My middle ds sometimes says he needs to be alone and goes into his or my room and shuts and locks the door. I allow him the privacy he needs for whatever reason. Even my 2yo does this to a certain extent. Sometimes he'll sit or stand behind something when he's upset. If I approach him and he doesn't want me there, he screams at me (or anyone else who tries to approach him). I wait until he either comes out of hiding himself or I sense that his mood has changed and he's ready for comforting.


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I think it's just as important to respect a child's desire to be left alone as it is to be available to that child no matter what. My oldest ds was like this. When he got very angry or frustrated he wanted to be left alone. That was very hard for me to do because I wanted to help and comfort him. Forcing that on him, though, probably gave him the wrong message. First, I was still trying to control the situation. Second, it probably relayed the message that I didn't think he was capable of handling his feelings. My middle ds sometimes says he needs to be alone and goes into his or my room and shuts and locks the door. I allow him the privacy he needs for whatever reason. Even my 2yo does this to a certain extent. Sometimes he'll sit or stand behind something when he's upset. If I approach him and he doesn't want me there, he screams at me (or anyone else who tries to approach him). I wait until he either comes out of hiding himself or I sense that his mood has changed and he's ready for comforting.

Thanks. I think you're right, and I do try and give her the space she needs. I hate to admit it, but part of the reason I'm anxious about leaving her alone when she's upset is that she's been having some potty issues lately and I'm afraid she's going to go in her pants when she's up in her room (her usual destination).







So far it hasn't happened, and the potty stuff seems to be easing up, so it's less anxiety-provoking for me.


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## joanna0707

So I got the DVD "Unconditional Parenting" from Alfie Kohn's website for my husband, because he did not want to read the book. We watched it together yesterday. I have to say that this DVD helped me understand the book so much better and my husband was so amazed, he said that now he understands what I've been trying to tell him lately.
The most important message I got from the lecture, that I did not find in the book( or I don't remember reading it) was " think what your child needs". So simple yet we don't do it as often as we should. When upset with your child stop and think that, when you're about to say "no" stop and think that , it may change the way you act - at least this is how I understand it.

I highly recommend the DVD if some of you have trouble with their DS/DP parenting styles, my DH got so excited after watching it I couldn't believe it. We started talking about the way we were raised, about the way others discipline their children and how we want to do it. It was fantastic, we never talked like this before.

I have a question about validating feelings during tantrums. How many times should I repeat myslef. If I validate and it doesn't bring relief to ds should I repeat what I said in a different way and how much is to much?


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
I have a question about validating feelings during tantrums. How many times should I repeat myslef. If I validate and it doesn't bring relief to ds should I repeat what I said in a different way and how much is to much?

I think Alfie Kohn says that it isn't necessary to validate feelings. Children already understand that what they are feeling is ok. Validating negative feelings may send the wrong message. I think Kohn used the example that we don't validate when someone feels good but only when they feel bad thereby possibly sending the message that those "bad" feelings are somehow wrong or something.

I think empathizing is more important. It won't always lead to instant relief for the other person. That shouldn't be the goal. Sometimes it will actually lead to an escalation of the feelings or behavior. That's ok because it usually means that the other person feels even more comfortable expressing himself, which is a very good thing. The goal should be just to empathize with the other person. Let them know you understand how they feel and why they feel that way. I wouldn't repeat myself over and over if I've already said that I understand. It's hard to say, though. It really depends on the situation and how the other person is reacting. A lot of times I'll just listen and say, "Oh," or "I see."


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## SundayCrepes

I was just posting a new thread and found this one. I don't have the time to read more than a few of the posts, but I thought maybe I could share our successes here.

The thread I started is: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...3#post14320933

It's how I turned my son from a raving, punching, pinching, screaming 3 year old back into his gentle, compliant, helpful self in just two weeks. And it was all from positive reinforcements.

I'm a big believer in UP, but was caught in a cycle. Now we're back to where I want to be.


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## MarineWife

I don't know how gets this and who doesn't so sorry if all of you have already read it.

Why?

_Why?
by Scott Noelle, posted on 2006-10-12

The next time some friend or relative warns you that your parenting style is too permissive, do what any self-respecting 3-year-old would do: Ask, "Why?"

"Because children need limits."

"Why?"

Most people who hold this belief have never questioned it. Those who are willing to examine it might notice that life presents children with many, many limits, and maybe they don't need their parents to add even more.

But some will answer with yet another unquestioned belief: "Because they need to learn that they can't always get their way."

"Why?"

Be as relentless as a 3-year-old! Now you're getting to the root of the distortion: the scarcity principle. Maybe he or she is ready to entertain the possibility that we live in an abundant universe - that life is not a zero-sum game.

Or maybe he or she will resort to fundamentalist rhetoric: "That's just the way things are."

"Why?"
_


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## ~PurityLake~

Yes, I get the daily groove, although I checked my new forum posts on mothering before I even logged into my email.


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## ~PurityLake~

My parents used to tease me, saying my first word was 'why'. I guess that never changed.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I think Alfie Kohn says that it isn't necessary to validate feelings. Children already understand that what they are feeling is ok. Validating negative feelings may send the wrong message. I think Kohn used the example that we don't validate when someone feels good but only when they feel bad thereby possibly sending the message that those "bad" feelings are somehow wrong or something.

I think empathizing is more important. It won't always lead to instant relief for the other person. That shouldn't be the goal. Sometimes it will actually lead to an escalation of the feelings or behavior. That's ok because it usually means that the other person feels even more comfortable expressing himself, which is a very good thing. The goal should be just to empathize with the other person. Let them know you understand how they feel and why they feel that way. I wouldn't repeat myself over and over if I've already said that I understand. It's hard to say, though. It really depends on the situation and how the other person is reacting. A lot of times I'll just listen and say, "Oh," or "I see."

I read this somewhere else too, I think it was Scott Noelle's Daily Groove actually, that validating negative feelings but not positive gives the impression they are not desirable feelings and makes them 'stand out' more...but I think sometimes it works.

Today, for instance, DS (23 mo) was crying repeatedly and not wanting to co-operate with anything in his usual getting up routine,and I was feeling frustrate. But then I suddenly realised he might possibly be acting out feelings from the fact I was away from him all day and all evening y.day (I've recently transitioned from SAHM-ing to part time WOHM). As soon as I expressed that to him (while holding and comforting him physically) - 'Are you sad because Mommy was away all of yesterday? Oh, I understand' - his crying quietened and I could see he was taking it in, and very soon the storm passed. I don't think you need to keep repeating yourself, and the goal isn't to make them stop tantruming or whatever, but just to help them feel understood. I was just quite amazed today at how well this tool did shift things.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
'Are you sad because Mommy was away all of yesterday? Oh, I understand'

To me this is empathy rather than validation. Validation would be saying something like, "It's ok to feel sad about me being gone all day." Understanding how someone feels and why is not validation. I can understand why my dh is angry at me for something but that doesn't necessarily mean I think his anger is valid or justified. KWIM? It may be a very subtle difference but it is a difference.


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## Devaya

I guess I was going more on the understanding I gleaned from 'raising our children, raising our selves', where her examples of 'validation' are things like 'You're feeling x, it's hard when y happens', which is pretty much what I was doing. It didn't seem to involve saying 'it's okay to feel that' - just by naming the feeling or saying something that expresses your empathy, you validate the child's emotions. Anyway, that's my take on it!

Something I'm really struggling with at the moment is other people's opinions. Sigh. Do you ever get over this stuff? I've just been away for the weekend with DS and it was so, so challenging. Tantrums left right and centre about EVERYTHING. didn't help that he was on the tail end of a cold, but I think it was mainly the disruption to his usual environment b/c he was fine soon as we got back, and had been fine before that. I found it so hard on the train, for example, and with the people we were staying with, to not apologise for him and get stressed (i got very tense as it was) when he was really going for it, and was very upset. On the train people seemed intolerant and very 'tut-tut'y, (even when he was just making exuberant loud noises!) but even though the people I stayed with (who I was meeting for the first time) were very tolerant and nice, I still felt awful that they were having to put up with all this screaming (including at night). I guess, I just wish that everyone could know it's normal for his age (nearly 2) and not expect me to DO something about it. Anyway, I just needed to vent about that really!

the reason it's all coming up so strongly is that I'm about to move into a shared house, a communal set up, in about a month, and I'm so scared of scaring people away - it's likely that no one else will have kids, and however 'understanding' they may be, and however much they like kids, the reality of living with one is pretty full on. i don't have the option of living alone with DS (I've just gone through a relationship break up) b/c I simply can't afford it, and also living in community has been a dream of mine for a while. After this weekend, though, I wondered if it's completely unrealistic, and I'm pretty worried about how to manage the way he's recently started crying at night again.

Sorry if this is going off the topic. I guess I'm just wondering how to continue to parent unconditionally and yet also manage the needs of other people around for peace and quiet! And how to prepare DS for this (the changes) in the most loving way possible. But then again, I guess even if I was parenting punitively, it would hardly guarantee no tantrums either! I've noticed though, that he's fine in different or new environments if there are other children and it's clearly 'child friendly' - it's only when it's all adult geared that he gets upset. Hhmm...


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## mckennasmomma

Devaya, I'm guessing that at first your new living situation will cause an increase in tantrums, because change is hard for anyone. But hopefully with your unconditional love they will subside as he gets used to the new setting.

I really relate to having difficulty dealing with the "public opinion". DD is so loud, all the time, and it can drive me batty when we are at home, let alone in public. I keep having to remind myself that this is about MY "fear of the future" and "fear of others' opinions". It is hard for me to not worry about what "kind" of girl she will be. I know that I need to let go of my expectations and let go of those fears. I know I would feel a lot better if I did. Doing it, however, is not easy.


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## SundayCrepes

I'm not worried about the future. My son will turn out just fine. It's also not other people's opinions I am quite so worried about as simply respecting their rights to a quiet environment...when that's what the scene is.

Let me rephrase that, I do worry about my relative's opinion only because I want them to like my son. To be honest, my son has been HORRID since the baby was two months. It drives ME up the wall. It's got to be even harder on family. I found that my last visit to my parents' my mom got on board when I told her we were going to ignore the negative and super reward the positive. When she saw results, she got in there with me. I'm not sure my MIL would do that. So we aren't visiting her during this stage.

But when I'm in public, I don't care what people think about me. I just don't want my son disrupting them. If we're at the park, kids will be kids. But if we go out to dinner, I need my son to act reasonably. If he can't, I don't go there.

For the pp about moving into communal housing, you could be getting yourself into a horrible bind if these people are not truly open to kids. Have you really talked about it to them? Both to be fair to them and to yourself. If they don't like it, they could kick you out and then you'd be in a terrible place. Is there a kid friendly community you could move into?


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## leila1213

Subbing.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mybabysmama* 
I'm not worried about the future. My son will turn out just fine. It's also not other people's opinions I am quite so worried about as simply respecting their rights to a quiet environment...when that's what the scene is.

Let me rephrase that, I do worry about my relative's opinion only because I want them to like my son. To be honest, my son has been HORRID since the baby was two months. It drives ME up the wall. It's got to be even harder on family. I found that my last visit to my parents' my mom got on board when I told her we were going to ignore the negative and super reward the positive. When she saw results, she got in there with me. I'm not sure my MIL would do that. So we aren't visiting her during this stage.

But when I'm in public, I don't care what people think about me. I just don't want my son disrupting them. If we're at the park, kids will be kids. But if we go out to dinner, I need my son to act reasonably. If he can't, I don't go there.

For the pp about moving into communal housing, you could be getting yourself into a horrible bind if these people are not truly open to kids. Have you really talked about it to them? Both to be fair to them and to yourself. If they don't like it, they could kick you out and then you'd be in a terrible place. Is there a kid friendly community you could move into?

Yes. For me, it's mainly about when my son's behaviour/level of noise IS disturbing others in an environment where it isn't really set up for kids - I mean, I remember that feeling of annoyance when you'd be out for dinner and there were screaming kids. At the same time, though, I can't ostracise myself from society.

As for the community, well I'm setting UP the community myself with my friend, and being very clear with people who are interested, that I need to feel comfortable in the house w.r.t my son and so on. Obviously I would be respectful of communal spaces and try to (though its hard when he makes his body all rigid in a tantrum!) take DS to our room if his tantrums are impacting on others. Still, as I said, I don't know if in reality it will work. All I can do is try and if it isn't working, I'm sensitive enough to pick that up and move on. I doubt I'd need them to kick me out







. I am looking for other parents to share with, but so far nobody suitable has turned up.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mybabysmama* 
I'm not worried about the future. My son will turn out just fine. It's also not other people's opinions I am quite so worried about as simply respecting their rights to a quiet environment...when that's what the scene is.

I agree with this. I don't really care what other people think of me or how my children behave but I do need to be respectful of others just like I expect them to be respectful of me and my children. I guess I'm kind of lucky in that my family, bio and in-law, to get into my business that much. We just spent a family vaca with my mom and her boyfriend. Both of them tried a few times to "deal" with my boys when they were "misbehaving" but it didn't help. It only made things worse. I stepped in and took care of things my way and everything settled down. That goes along way to show that UP can work.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mybabysmama* 
ignore the negative and super reward the positive.

This is not really UP the way I understand it. I think UP requires that we pay attention to our children and their behavior regardless of whether it's positive or negative. This type of punishment/reward system is very manipulative. And, yes, ignoring negative behavior is a type of punishment according to UP. It's a form of love withdrawal. It's basically telling the child he is only worthy of our attention, and therefore love, when he behaves the way we want him to. Of course, I think it's ok to remove a child from a situation where he is disturbing others (especially if he is getting negative reactions from those others) as long as we stay with him as he works through his feelings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mybabysmama* 
If we're at the park, kids will be kids. But if we go out to dinner, I need my son to act reasonably. If he can't, I don't go there.

I agree with this, too. It reminds me of a while back one someone mentioned how it says it Raising Our Children,... not to a very young child grocery shopping. If the child is age/developmentally able to handle the situation, it's best to stay home. Sometimes that's unavoidable, like when you have to take him somewhere on the train. Then, I think, the best we can do is try to set things up to avoid upsets as much as possible like bringing snacks and drinks and things to occupy the child. If a child is upset because his environment has changed drastically, even for a short time, he needs more attention from the people who love him, not less.

Here's the Daily Groove for today. It hits on something I wanted to say in my last post but couldn't get it worded right. Confidence breeds confidence. So, if you are confident about what you are doing with your children, others are less likely to question or challenge you about it.


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## MarineWife

Perfect Daily Groove for the topic that's been at hand. Isn't it interesting how things just seem to align themselves like that?

The Shadow of Doubt

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

"The Daily Groove" BOOK makes
a great GIFT for new parents! See:
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/book

:: The Shadow of a Doubt ::

If you're worried about what others think of your
parenting, consider this:

MAYBE they're judging you; maybe not. But *you* are
DEFINITELY judging yourself!

Your emotional reaction (worry) is the tip-off to your
self-judgment. If you were absolutely confident in
your parenting, you might be *aware* of others judging
you, and that would inform your choices, but it
wouldn't get under your skin.

This doesn't mean you should try to eliminate all
doubt. Uncertainty is a necessary part of any
leading-edge path. It makes you a better learner.

When you embrace doubt and practice being "confidently
uncertain," you'll stop needing others' approval.
Better yet, some of them will drop their judgments and
grow to appreciate or even emulate your ways!


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## joanna0707

I also signed up for the Daily Groove newsletter, I love it,I can't wait to check my email in the morning









I have to brag a little, I'm getting better every day







Today for example instead of following DS everywhere to remind him we have to leave soon I told him that I'm waiting by the door for him to finish playing and I sat there with the book. He came after 5 minutes, I was a little disappointed to be honest, the book was very interesting









There's one problem both I and DH are not sure how to handle. DS is very bossy lately, he tells us where to seat, where to stand, he wants us to eat with him, sometimes he tells us to leave the room etc. If we don't do what he wants he gets very upset. We're not sure how to react. I understand that kids need to feel in control but how much is too much?


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## MarineWife

I know a lot of you get the Daily Groove so sorry for posting something you've already read. I don't know if everyone gets it, though, so I like to post what I consider the really good ones.

You're right on that the bossiness is about taking control. I guess how much you go along with it depends on whether or not the requests are reasonable. If you can't leave the room, for example, just explain that to ds. If he gets upset, that's ok. I don't think this is about not ever having any upsets. They'll still happen. It's about showing our children that we love them even when their behavior is hard to take. That's a big misconception that people have about radical unschooling. They think parents do everything their children say so that the children won't ever be upset or feel bad. Not only is that impossible, but it's just wrong.


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## jennchsm

DS is 20 months old, and we've been practicing UP (along with AP) pretty much from the beginning. The UP approach has been much more at the center of my parenting of late, for fairly obvious reasons, but I'm finding it harder and harder to relate to other parents of toddlers.

For example, in the various toddler discussion forums I participate in (on MDC and elsewhere), much of the discussion is about discipline. People are constantly posting about their toddlers' discipline problems, and I'm finding it really difficult to understand why so many of these issues are "problems". I can't tell you how many posts I've read lately that talk about putting children as young as 12 months in time out!

I'm realizing that UP has shifted my perspective away from seeing my son's behavior as a "problem" to be changed or controlled, and towards something that tells me about what he's thinking and what is important to him... this is something I have difficulty describing.  I also find that I don't know quite how to participate in these discussions. For example, there was a recent discussion in which people complained about how to deal with toddlers dropping food on the floor during meals and playing with it instead of eating it. They talked about using time-outs to deal with this, among other punitive approaches. When I asked why food-dropping was a problem and tried to point out the child's perspective (food is a cool sensory experience, they're exploring textures they don't otherwise encounter, and even doing science-like experiments that are natural outgrowths of their curiosity) the response is that I am pretty much from another planet. When I try to ask why the food-dropping is really a problem (it just takes a few more minutes to clean up, after all, especially if you just put a towel or old sheet under the high chair), the response is similar.

What do you do in these situations? I'm not offering unsolicited advice; these folks are posting in a public forum and are asking what others think. I'm trying to be gentle and sympathetic when I present another perspective, but the response is usually, "Huh?" I guess I feel like I should keep offering my opinion, but at the same time, it's weird to be the lone UP voice on those forums.

People seem not to believe me when I say there are no discipline issues at my house. Nothing has come up yet that I think would require such punitive correction/control measures. I can't imagine a situation in which I would "pop" my son (as they so often put it) or isolate him in a corner for a few minutes. I'm totally confident about my parenting choices, but I guess I'm feeling a little alone in them lately. :-/


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## harrietsmama

I hear you, I am having the same issue with other parents and my partner regarding my 7 yo. He is going through normal 7 yo behaviors that can be challenging, but it's part of growing and learning. I am accused of doing nothing, but I am doing a lot to model and guide. Just because what I'm doing isn't 'working' doesn't mean I'm not doing anything!


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## MarineWife

I think the only thing to do in those situations is to share what you think and do and leave it at that. Others can take it or leave it. If people try to engage you in arguments, just respond once by saying that it works for you. There's no point in continuing to argue your point because, at that point, the people challenging you are not really open to your way of doing things. Most times when people ask for advice about problems they want support for what they are doing rather than a very different POV. I just gave a friend my UP and Raising Our Children books in response to his parenting difficulties. He is a newly and very unexpectedly single parent. I warned him that the ideas in the books will probably go against everything he's ever heard, read or experienced about parenting and discipline. I'll be very surprised if he adopts any of the ideas but at least I've past the info along. That's all I can do.

WRT whether or not it's working depends on what your purpose is. If the purpose is to stop unwanted behavior immediately, then UP won't appear to be working. I've found that when I talk to other parents, including my dh, about the underlying principles of my parenting they are more likely to agree with me. Thinking in terms of principles helps me put things in perspective.


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I don't think this is about not ever having any upsets. They'll still happen. It's about showing our children that we love them even when their behavior is hard to take.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
WRT whether or not it's working depends on what your purpose is. If the purpose is to stop unwanted behavior immediately, then UP won't appear to be working. I've found that when I talk to other parents, including my dh, about the underlying principles of my parenting they are more likely to agree with me. Thinking in terms of principles helps me put things in perspective.

I'm so loving you today, MW.







These are *such* important points you've made! There are days I have to really step back and remind myself of all of these things over and over. Like when I feel like I am doing everything "right" and the tantrum won't stop, or they continue to bite each other, etc. It's not about immediate results. It's about the long term and raising the kind of people I'd want to know.

I think we should use this thread to also share some of our "successes." Times when we've managed to stick to UP principles even when every fiber of our being is telling us to punish, reward, whatever. I don't have anything at the moment, but I'm sure I will and I am certain everyone else does, too. Fire away!


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## joanna0707

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

You're right on that the bossiness is about taking control. I guess how much you go along with it depends on whether or not the requests are reasonable. If you can't leave the room, for example, just explain that to ds. If he gets upset, that's ok. I don't think this is about not ever having any upsets. They'll still happen. It's about showing our children that we love them even when their behavior is hard to take. That's a big misconception that people have about radical unschooling. They think parents do everything their children say so that the children won't ever be upset or feel bad. Not only is that impossible, but it's just wrong.

I'm not really worried about DS getting upset when I don't do what he wants, it's more about me not liking to be ordered by a child I guess. I tried to examine my thoughts and my conclusion is that I'm simply affraid. When will this bossiness stop, what if it doesn't stop? If I don't stop it will he keep it up forever? Will he think of me as a pushover?
Those are all my thoughts, so irrational... I can't get them out of my head


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## joanna0707

Today's Daily Groove newsletter is exactly what I needed:

Perhaps you've been led to believe that worrying
about children goes hand in hand with loving them.
But in truth, parental love is far more powerful
*without* worry than with it.

Worries focus all your attention on what you *don't*
want and put you in a state of *fear*. This sends a
message to your child that you *expect* bad things
to happen. And since children naturally tend to meet
their parents' unspoken expectations, worries are
self-fulfilling prophesies.

Today, if you catch yourself worrying, don't worry
about it. 

Instead, use your awareness of worry to shift your
focus in the direction of what you *do* want, and
reach for thoughts that soothe your worries:

"It's not the end of the world."
"It won't last forever."
"I've successfully handled worse situations."
"We always find our way."
...etc.

Before long you'll start feeling hopeful, and you'll
feel your heart opening, too. An open heart is all
you need for love to flow unconditionally...
unhindered by worries.

I worry too much!!! DS will learn to respect others and say "please" eventually. I think it all comes down to me doubting myself as a parent, I have to believe in myself and everything will be fine.

I apologize I keep writing about myself and my problems but it really helps me see things clearer.

MW thank you for your advice, it's really helpful, I'm glad we have you here


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## bronxmom

Any other parents of older kids on here? I have an 8 month old and a 10 year old, so most of this is stuff I'm working on with my 10 year old. I read UP many years ago and liked it but just re-read it to be more conscious in my parenting as we've gone through some rough times and to bolster my confidence that I've been doing the right thing. My daughter had been having a hard time after switching schools (still is) and there were more conflicts in my house and she was returning to needing me to help her get to sleep for hours at a time - all of which was having me question whether I had gone wrong somewhere. However, my daughter is also crazy in love with her little brother, super-helpful with him, wonderful with all younger kids she knows, a great friend to her closest friends, an amazing and persistent writer and can be incredibly empathetic and kind - and she's crazy smart and interesting with interesting questions about the world. Have to remember those things









Anyways, here's what I consider a UP success story (after also reading Haim Ginott's "Between Parent and Child"). A month ago she was supposed to go on a 3 week trip to Egypt with her dad - away from me, her stepdad and her baby brother. Currently she spends 1, sometimes 2, nights each week with her dad. So this was going to be hard but exciting. A few days before the trip I talked to her on the phone before picking her up from a friend's and she was crying and said she didn't want to go. My partner and I talked before picking her up and agreed that we would not try to convince her she would be okay or offer up ways to help her deal while she's there or motivations for why it was important for her dad and his family (he's from Egypt and she has a whole family there) for her to go. We were just going to listen to her and empathize with her feelings and try to get her to talk. It was REALLY hard. When we responded with "it must be really hard for you", she was like "YES! what are we going to do about it? I'm NOT going". This was a lot of the conversation and we just came back to listening and empathizing. We also were pretty clear that not going was not an option, but we just stated that point once. She cried a lot and we tried to be extra-nice to her that day, though it was tough because she was so upset and then difficult. At night we were like "well, that didn't work."

THEN, she woke up the next morning focused on preparations for leaving, what we were going to do before she left, packing, etc. She was great! At that point we talked about how to make it easier while she was gone. She left for the airport looking so grown up and confident. She ended up having a great time. We skyped every day, which helped a lot. She didn't have a single breakdown while she was there and genuinely focused on enjoying time with her family.

Then the hard thing when she came back was to resist the urge to say how proud of her because I was SO proud of how resilient she was and how she coped. But I didn't want to send the signal that I'm only proud of her if she doesn't break down when she's away from us. Instead, I just stated that she seemed to cope well with being away and asked her if that was true and why. She said it was the Skyping and left it at that. I was also sick unfortuantely when she came home and she went and bought her school supplies by herself and got everything together. Then she had me tuck her in and went to bed at a normal hour by herself (a major struggle of the last few months, esp as she hates her new school) and got up and got ready for school this morning in time.

It was pretty incredible! I'm sure the other shoe will drop at some point but for now I am relishing what an amazing kid I have and feeling pretty good about my parenting. I have to remember these times when she's struggling.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
I'm not really worried about DS getting upset when I don't do what he wants, it's more about me not liking to be ordered by a child I guess. I tried to examine my thoughts and my conclusion is that I'm simply affraid. When will this bossiness stop, what if it doesn't stop? If I don't stop it will he keep it up forever? Will he think of me as a pushover?
Those are all my thoughts, so irrational... I can't get them out of my head









Ah, ok. Yeah, I think the same thing sometimes. I think it's ok, even good, for you to say when you don't like the ordering. It is important for you to show your children that you are not a doormat, that people do not like to be ordered, as long as it's done in a respectful manner.

There are times when I won't do things for my 5yo because I don't like the way he's been ordering me around and he can do it himself. For example, I've just been up and down the stairs 3 times. As soon as I sit down ds tells me to get his drink from downstairs. I tell him I just sat down and am not going back downstairs right now but will get his drink the next time I do. I'm not refusing to do it for him ever. I'm just saying I'm not going to do it right this second after just running around, especially since he had the opportunity to ask me to get it before. (I almost always tell him when I'm going downstairs and ask if he needs anything while I'm down there.) He yells at me to get it now! I tell him that he is capable of getting it himself if he needs it right now. If he wants me to get it, he'll have to wait until I go downstairs again. He usually gets very upset about this but I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect me to constantly run around doing everything for him with no consideration for me, especially when he can do most things himself. I do all of these things for him as much as possible whenever it's reasonable and, when I don't, I try to be respectful about it, the same way I would with my dh.

Another thing to do would be to give your dc as much opportunity as possible to have control over situations that you are ok with. Like the book says, the more often a child is given power and control over his/her environment, the better they will be able to accept those few times when they don't have that power and control because they know that it's not arbitrary. Before sitting down to eat, ask your ds where he would like everyone to sit.

bronxmom ~ Thanks for sharing that. That's a great example of UP in real life. It didn't appear to be working at first because your dd was still upset even after doing all the things suggested in the book. However, after having time to digest everything and work through it herself, she came up with her own answers, whatever those were. I think you handled it perfectly when she came back, too. You expressed to her that she seemed to do well on her trip and she agreed but acknowledged that it was because she was able to keep in daily contact with you. So, she was able to acknowledge her independence and dependence at the same time without any judgment of either.

I have older children, 3 boys, an 18yo, 5yo and then my LO, 2yo. Unfortunately, with my oldest, I didn't rediscover AP until he was about 12-13 and didn't discover UP until he was 16-17. He's the one I have the hardest time doing this with, maybe because we have so much history of doing things the conventional way.

He's complaining all the time about how he can't get a job. However, he walks into places to inquire about jobs with his blue/green mohawk standing at least 6 inches up from his head. Um, yeah, maybe that's why people don't hire him. Personally, I don't think that should matter but I know that other people do. He knows this so what does he do? He decides to get a tattoo that essentially covers his entire forearm. I don't have anything against tattoos. My dh and I both have them. I just don't think it's such a great idea for him to put it in such a conspicuous place. He agrees but says that's where it looks good so he's going to do it.


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## njkarin

Wow, this is great! My husband and I have had many discussions about how we can avoid getting caught up in all the "rush rush" and competitiveness that seems rampant in today's parenting. We have a 14 month old and I've seen such behavior since my son was born.

It seems like UP is a great way to help us stay present when we are with our children. I am a SAHM and some of my favorite moments in the day are when I just sit back and watch my little man play and discover his world. "Talk less, listen more" is my favorite from the list.


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## joanna0707

Bronxmom, you've handled the situation beautifully, great job









MW, I feel for you








Gosh it must be hard when your kids do irresponsible things and there's nothing you can do about it. I used to be like that when I was a teenager, did a lot of stupid things


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## OGirlieMama

Bronxmom, that was really an inspirational story! I'm glad your daughter was able to cope so well and enjoy the trip.


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## hilary549

i love this thread. my baby is only 7 months but i read UP when i was pregnant and think about it a lot, especially when i am uncomfortable with the way someone else is parenting. i will be reading this over and over as we get towards the more trying ages.... what do you all have to suggest about UP and daycare? we are searching for a new daycare and i've been trying to figure out how to bring up these kinds of things with daycare providers without seeming critical of their methods...


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## rajouta

bump


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## joanna0707

OK, I have another dilemma, DS fakes crying a lot.He does it often throughout the day and he does it with me only. Usually he does it when he wants me to pick him up or just simply needs my attention. Sometimes it makes me laugh, he calls me and when I'm looking he'll start crying, often looking thru his fingers








Most friends tell me to ignore it but I know better. I always react because I understand that this is his way of telling me he needs me. I'm afraid though, that he will turn into whiny kid. He sees now that fake crying brings results, it may lead him to think, this is a great way to get my attention.

Did any of you have similar situation and how did you deal with it?


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## SundayCrepes

I model for my son, "Mommy, I need your attention." Then I respond, "Oh, what do you need?"

Or if he's fussing about something, "Mommy, may I please have some juice?" or whatever would be appropriate for him to say.

I figure he doesn't know what to say, so I let him know what it is. My husband thinks this is controlling. I disagree. I really do it so he can learn what is the right thing to say in the situation.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
MW, I feel for you








Gosh it must be hard when your kids do irresponsible things and there's nothing you can do about it. I used to be like that when I was a teenager, did a lot of stupid things









I may have found a way to remedy this situation. I told him that I'd give him up to $200 for Christmas to get a professional tattoo. (Did I mention that he said either he or one of his friends was going to put that tattoo on his arm?!














He's taking his GED tests today and tomorrow.







:

Is this a success story? The other day my 5yo was playing with his friend next door. They got into an argument about something and my 5yo came storming into the house, slamming the door in his friend's face. A little later when my ds got over being angry he asked to go back over to his friend's house to play. I took him over (not knowing exactly what had happened between them). The first thing my ds said to his friend was that he was sorry for slamming the door in his face. I did not tell my ds that would be a nice thing to do. I didn't even know he had slammed the door.









I wouldn't ignore the crying, whether real or not. Maybe your ds is upset or hurt or whatever, not quite enough to produce a full-on cry but enough to evoke the little "fake" cry. I do what mybabysmama does anytime my kids request something in a not-so-pleasant way. I say it the way I'd like to hear it. I also make sure to talk to others the way I'd like my children to talk to me. So, I ask, rather than tell, them to do things without any expectation that my request means they have to do it. I think most all kids go through a whiny stage. It's a normal part of development. As long as it's not encouraged, the child will grow out of it as he learns new skills.


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## OGirlieMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
OK, I have another dilemma, DS fakes crying a lot.He does it often throughout the day and he does it with me only. Usually he does it when he wants me to pick him up or just simply needs my attention. Sometimes it makes me laugh, he calls me and when I'm looking he'll start crying, often looking thru his fingers








Most friends tell me to ignore it but I know better. I always react because I understand that this is his way of telling me he needs me. I'm afraid though, that he will turn into whiny kid. He sees now that fake crying brings results, it may lead him to think, this is a great way to get my attention.

Did any of you have similar situation and how did you deal with it?

Not sure how old your son is, so this might be off-base. But with my 3.5-year-olds I'd probably acknowledge that they're making crying sounds and ask if they're really upset or they just want to get my attention. Assuming they said they just wanted my attention, I'd suggest more appropriate ways they could get my attention.


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## canadaap

I haven't read the book, but I should. Some days it is just really hard to parent with respect when my 2 year old DS is screaming "no . . . " (diaper, clothes, food, whatever) at me and I just want to cry. My parents would have just spanked me. I admit that I've resorted to that once or twice, felt horrible about it, and it didn't do anything anyway.

Today I took time to pray, and then just explained to him the concept of respect. I forget exactley what I said, but his attitude changed and he put his shirt on. I was amazed. Of course, we had arguments later, but the seeds are there.


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## canadaap

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
OK, I have another dilemma, DS fakes crying a lot.He does it often throughout the day and he does it with me only. Usually he does it when he wants me to pick him up or just simply needs my attention. Sometimes it makes me laugh, he calls me and when I'm looking he'll start crying, often looking thru his fingers










I have noticed in the past how my family members will fake cry to get my son's sympathy. I haven't said anything, but if it happens I think I will. I want him to appreciate people's honest emotions. I would look around your son's life and see if anyone is doing that to him, try to figure out where he picked it up (of course, they also learn things on their own, but just a thought).


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## MarineWife

2yos can be difficult. My 2yo seems to fight with me about almost everything. He tells me he has poop but then won't let me clean him up. He says he's hungry but then doesn't eat anything we have. (My 5yo does that one, too.) I ask him to come inside and he runs away. I'm too tired to chase him but what choice do I have if I have to go inside? I try not to get angry as he's laughing and running away from me but sometimes I do.

The last one I take as a sign that he doesn't get enough time to run around outside. He always wants to follow his big bro outside but doesn't understand that he's not old enough to play outside without an adult and I can't always go outside at that moment. Every day I vow to spend more time outside with him but every day things get in the way.


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## joanna0707

I hv only one child, he's 2, so is pretty easy to go in his pace and I try to do it as much as possible but even than we disagree sometimes. I try to find ways to avoid unnecessary stress, for example lately DS likes to pretend he does gymnastics, so I tell him to stand as wide as he can, he does it happily and doesn't oppose to a diaper change. when we need to go to the store and I'm bored with waiting I tell him it's time to go buy bananas or watermelon(he loves both) and in a minute he's by the door. Sometimes it surprises me how much I can change his response by simply saying please, it really means a lot to kids that we ask them politely instead of ordering them around. Today DS surprised me, I had to skype my sister, during our conversation DS came to me demanding to play, I told him that auntie is sad today and needs to speak with me, can he play alone for a while please, and he did, he just walked out of the room. I was speechless for a moment because I expected tears and screams

MW, it must hard to be UP when you have 3 little ones, they all have different needs and they all want it NOW, it's time consuming. No wonder you can't be outside with your 2yo as much as he needs.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
it really means a lot to kids that we ask them politely instead of ordering them around.

I have found this to be so true. When my middle ds was about 3 we use to go to a playgroup. He would scream and fight if another child came over and started playing with whatever he was doing without asking. However, if that same child stopped and asked, or if an adult asked for the child, he had no problem whatsoever sharing. It was very cool to see.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
MW, it must hard to be UP when you have 3 little ones, they all have different needs and they all want it NOW, it's time consuming. No wonder you can't be outside with your 2yo as much as he needs.

I only have 2 LOs. My oldest is 18 years old, a legal adult.







I'm still trying to figure out how that happened.









I had an issue with my 5yo last night. When he came home after playing with his friends he said he was hungry. I started to make him a plate of food. No problem. Then he said something about, if I didn't do something he wanted (can't remember what now), he wouldn't eat my "stinking" food. I got angry. It wasn't so much the words as it was the tone. He was being so nasty for absolutely no reason. This almost always happens after playing with his friends. I don't know if they talk that way toward each other or hear overhears them talk to their parents that way but he comes home so rude and demanding. Anyway, I told him he wouldn't get any dinner then and he could go to his room. Totally an un-UP thing to do. I just flashed red over that for some reason. I don't think he even made it to his room before we were talking it over and made up and he sat down to eat. Of course, then he got angry at me for making him miss his fave TV show because I told him he had to eat at the dinner table instead of taking his food upstairs.

As we were talking about what he said and how it made me feel, he said he didn't say I was stinking, just that the food was. So, I told him that since I had made the food that hurt my feelings. He said he didn't have any reason to say what he said. He didn't mean it. He just felt like saying it like that was how people normally talk to each other. When he does that I want to tell him he can't play with the neighbor kids anymore because I know that's where he gets that. But those are his friends, especially the boy next door. He genuinely likes them and I don't think it's right for me to tell him who he can be friends with.


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## MarineWife

I've got another dilemma. I understand that with UP or using/expressing empathy rather than punishments/rewards the behavior we are addressing may not stop. That's not the point. I get that. However, what do you do when your child is just absolutely relentless about something you've already addressed several times, especially when there's nothing you can do about the situation?

For example, the other day my 5yo wanted to play with a friend. I called the friend's parents. The dad said the friend could play after he ate. Time kept going by and the friend wasn't coming over. My ds asked me to call again. It hadn't been that long, maybe 30 minutes since I'd called the first time. I explained to ds that since I had already called, they knew he wanted his friend to come over and they'd send him over or call as soon as he was ready. My ds would not stop begging, screaming, crying, etc. to get me to call them again. This went on all afternoon. He would stop for a while. Play some games on the pc for a few minutes and then go right back to harassing me about it. That's how I felt, harassed. I couldn't think of any other way to explain to him that it's rude to continually call someone when they already know what we want. DS just would not stop until I just couldn't take it anymore. What am I supposed to do in a situation like that? Anyone have any ideas?


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## Cavy

MarineWife, I'm not at all a UPer, but I imagine a good approach would have been to say:

"Isn't it frustrating that they're so late to get over here? Tell you what, shall I play a game with you instead for a while?"

In other words, distraction to stop your lad from driving you over the edge.

If the playmate was getting very late to come over -- you said this went on "all afternoon"?! -- I think that it would be _very_ reasonable to phone the other parents and just check if the other boy was coming; tell them that you need to make alternative plans if not. Not very good form for them to keep you dangling like that.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cavy* 
If the playmate was getting very late to come over -- you said this went on "all afternoon"?! -- I think that it would be _very_ reasonable to phone the other parents and just check if the other boy was coming; tell them that you need to make alternative plans if not. Not very good form for them to keep you dangling like that.

Yes, that is true. After a long enough while, I can (and sometimes do) call back or just go over, but not every 15 minutes or so. The boy ended up not coming over at all. I can't remember why. My ds will not be distracted when he gets set on something like that.

I did make empathizing statements to him, too. He still continued to hound me about it.


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## joanna0707

After waiting for a while, I would just leave the house, if at all possible of course. This is what I do if I feel like situation is getting out of control and DS is driving me crazy. We usually go somewhere where there are other kids, DS's mood changes for the better and so does mine.


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## MarineWife

That's a great idea, joanna. So simple.


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## MarineWife

I think this is a success. 5yo ds woke up after 2yo ds this morning. So, 2yo ds was already watching Dora. 5yo ds did not want to watch that and began to whine and cry and demand that we change the channel. I asked 2yo ds if we could change the channel but he said he wanted to continue watching Dora. I told 5yo ds that he could either go in another room to watch something different or wait until that show was over and then we could discuss it again. He started to have a fit. I explained his options again. I also explained that it's unfair to make everyone else stop what they are doing for him. Next thing I knew he had calmed down and asked his brother very calmly if he could change the channel. 2yo ds agreed and all was settled.


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## canadaap

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Next thing I knew he had calmed down and asked his brother very calmly if he could change the channel. 2yo ds agreed and all was settled.









My mother and husband will both tell you that if they want me to agree to something, they have to present the idea to me and LEAVE IT ALONE! If they keep at it, I will solidly disagree. But if I have a chance to sit on it and think it over, I tend to agree (though I also tend to present the idea to them as my own lol). It sounds like your son is a bit like me.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadaap* 
if I have a chance to sit on it and think it over, I tend to agree (though I also tend to present the idea to them as my own lol).


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## Devaya

how's everyone doing? Life is crazy crazy at the mo...in the wake of my separation, have moved house twice in past two weeks and moving again soon (just staying at various friends until I move into permanent place hopefully v soon!) and both houses have had kids - DS (24 mo) was fine with the 26 month old at previous house, but he is not liking sharing toys and space and love with the 14 month old where we are now. Funny isn't it? He's being quite aggressive to him and crying and whining for me a lot, wanting endless cuddles and nursing.

I'm doing as much as I can for him and trying to empathise, etc, but I'm SO busy b/c I'm having to work from home as well as out of the home now to make v tight ends meet, and this involves a lot of prep like making lunch ahead of time, etc, which he interrupts constantly. It's making me feel very stressed! I know he's going through a lot of change and disruption and doesn't understand what' s happening - and he's TWO - but I could do with some tips on how to help him and me through this rough time, esp with the aggressive behaviour with younger kids (the 14 month old plus a 10 month old at another group I run), without shaming him and being conditional. I want to give him the message that I'm interested in how he's feeling and know its hard to share toys all the time, etc, but at the same time I feel bad about the other kids and feel I need to be clear that hurting them is not appropriate (it's just pushing away and shoving, nothing more than that at this point).

I had to give myself a 'time out' y.day bc I was losing the plot with his screaming. I left the room, took deep breaths in the bathroom until I felt ok, came back and he had also calmed down. I dont want him to think I'm punishing or withdrawing when I do that, but sometimes I just need to when I start shouting or feeling like I'm going to shout! He's also having much less time with me than usual b/c of the various childcare arrangements - all of which he's happy with when he's there, but the repercussions come on me later.


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## MarineWife

The only things I know to do with a child when they are being aggressive or hurtful about playing and sharing with others is to remove them from the group, not in an angry or punitive way but I think that's absolutely vital for the respect and protection of the other children. You could try letting your ds pick out a few special toys of his own that he can keep to himself. He doesn't have to share them with anyone unless he chooses to. He also will have to realize and understand that others don't have to share with him. I do that with my children, sort of. I don't make them choose only a few. All of their toys are theirs and they choose whether or not to share at any given time. Most of the time with a little discussion and a request they will share anything. If there is something they absolutely will not share, then I work with the other child(ren) to try to find something else they can do/play with.

WRT the interruptions while you are doing necessary things, can you put him in a sling? I know 2yos are big and heavy but on your back he probably wouldn't be too heavy or in the way. That would give him the closeness and connection to you while keeping your hands free to get things done. A wrap or mei tai or something like an Ergo would work best for that, I think.


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## Devaya

Thanks, I like the idea of giving him the choice about whether to share. Its complicated by the fact we are often in other people's space where toys are all mixed up and we can hardly have a situation where he doesn't share his toys when he's using the other kid's toys, you know? I think I've been feeling pressurised to kind of force him to share (although I'm always validating and being gentle, I have been sort of going 'We need to share' and facilitating them taking turns). What's hard is when other kids just come and destroy whatever he's been doing, building meticulously (he's a very meticulous child!) and then he gets understandably pissed off and throws everything all over the floor (also dangerous - hard objects like blocks - which I do point out). This often happens repeatedly and I think is partly why he's becoming more possessive of toys and telling others to go away.

I do offer to put him in the Ergo on my back, often, we are big baby wearers here - but he often refuses or just wants to nurse in the Ergo which he's too big for now but I still sometimes do if its absolutely necessary (and not while doing tasks - he's too heavy in the front). I guess it will pass, I just wish I could remove some of the pressure in our lives right now and have more time for just us. Im getting an inkling of what it may be like to have more than one kid, with competing needs. Such a different story.


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
Its complicated by the fact we are often in other people's space where toys are all mixed up and we can hardly have a situation where he doesn't share his toys when he's using the other kid's toys, you know?

I kind of disagree with this. I don't think he has to share just because he's using others' toys. I know it's complicated, especially if the other parents are forcing their children to share. I don't really know how to address that except to say that your child is your responsibility and you can't control what other parents do.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I kind of disagree with this. I don't think he has to share just because he's using others' toys. I know it's complicated, especially if the other parents are forcing their children to share. I don't really know how to address that except to say that your child is your responsibility and you can't control what other parents do.

Yeah, the problem is there is HUGE pressure to share amongst all the parents I know - none of them give their children a choice about such things. I feel I'd need to explain my approach to the parents otherwise things will get v uncomfortable. But sometimes I just find all my reasons for doing the things I do, goes out the window when I'm under stress - and it all becomes about 'the behaviour'. I can't be clear to others about what I'm doing when I'm not even clear in my own head - I mean it's a good argument, right? 'We have to show them what's acceptable, and it's selfish not to share." I'm already really standing out b/c I don't force 'thank you's', 'please' and especially apologies, just model the behaviour rather than harping on about it.

It's a hard road sometimes, but I try to keep in mind what you and others on this forum have said about the long-term positives of this kind of approach. I think I need to do some reading again to get myself inspired/reaffirmed.


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## mckennasmomma

I know what you mean about the argument/counterargument for various parenting techniques. Often the mainstream argument is short, concise, and makes sense. The UP argument (or other similar philosophies) takes a little more in depth understanding, which isn't easy to explain in an on-the-spot moment. This extends to the main "parenting" issue we are currently dealing with: sleep.

When I read things that make total sense to me, I try to embed what the author says in to my brain so I could explain it at a future date, but inevitably when that opportunity comes the explanation seems too lengthy, or I'm just not in the mood for a long discussion, you know?


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## mamazee

Do you think he'd be OK with putting away things that he doesn't like to share at the time? You could even explain it to the other parents by saying that he's going through a lot and it seems to help him to have control over his toys, or something like that, and then you don't have to get into a long explanation about UP but still "let him off the hook" as far as the other parents' expectations go.


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## MarineWife

I have a hard time, too, explaining my ways to others. It seems that most people take it as a challenge to what they do and so they get into an argumentative mindset. What's always strange to me is that I find my AP friends to be more argumentative about the way I do things (like RU) than others. That's when I have to just say something along the lines of, "This is the way I do things because it works for us." I try very hard not to present my position in any kind of judgmental way. But people are going to take it that way no matter sometimes, especially if they aren't 100% comfortable with the way they do things. I get disapproving looks a lot from people over the please and thank you thing even though my 5yo says those things on his own most times. For example, today we were at a birthday party. My ds was the only one of the children who said please, thank you and excuse me. All the adults acknowledged in way one or another how pleasant and polite he was.

I almost got into a discussion about letting my 2yo have a couple of sips of soda. One lady there was very surprised that I would let him have that. She said she doesn't let her granddaughter ever have soda and she's 6. I opened my mouth a few times to explain my position but realized this woman would take it as a challenge or argument so I just smiled. I did point out to her that although both my boys had cups of soda neither one had more than a couple of sips. They also both asked for plain water when they were really thirsty. The kids who were deprived soda at home wanted to drink can after can without eating or drinking anything else. Another woman who doesn't have any children made a comment that she thinks parents influence what their children like and dislike as if the children don't have their own tastes. That really surprised me. She wouldn't even entertain my comparison with the fact that adults obviously have different personal tastes.

I'm afraid all of this sounds like me patting myself on the back or bragging about my kids. That's not my intention at all. I'm just wanting to share examples of how this works in comparison to conventional, mainstream parenting. My experience has been that children raised in conventional homes lie, cheat and steal to get away with things when out from under their parents controlling eyes. I don't want my children to feel the need to do that. I want them to know they can be open and honest with me and trust that I will respect them and not try to control them.

After all of that, my point was that I have remind myself that it's not important what other people think. What matters is that I treat my child with the respect he deserves as an individual. When I remember that I can feel comfortable with doing my own thing without having to give a lengthy explanation or get into a long discussion or argument about it. I think in the situation of staying with others who do things differently, when in their home it's important to respect what they do with their things and it's important to tell them that you do things differently with your child. If that means you have to make a bigger effort to keep his things separate from their, that may be what you have to do. It may work to have your ds pick a few things that he wants to keep for himself and agree that he will share everything else.

Oh, I remember something else I thought of earlier. One thing I do is explain to the child that my child will probably be willing to share the toy when he's done with it but he's still using it right now. I ask my child to tell me when he's done so the other child can have a turn or just give it to the other child. I make sure to explain to my child that, if he wants it back, he has to wait until the other child is done. No arbitrary time limits. That makes children more likely to share happily rather than begrudgingly. You never know. These other parents might see how well that works and start to change their ways. Isn't it so much better when your child shares because he really wants to rather than because he's forced to?


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## sphinx

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Oh, I remember something else I thought of earlier. One thing I do is explain to the child that my child will probably be willing to share the toy when he's done with it but he's still using it right now. I ask my child to tell me when he's done so the other child can have a turn or just give it to the other child. I make sure to explain to my child that, if he wants it back, he has to wait until the other child is done. No arbitrary time limits. That makes children more likely to share happily rather than begrudgingly. You never know. These other parents might see how well that works and start to change their ways. Isn't it so much better when your child shares because he really wants to rather than because he's forced to?


yes this is just what i was thinking of, Devaya. In my toddler class we say "take turns" and it is up to the child to decide when the turn is over and when s/he's done, s/he puts the item back and the other child can use it. It's then phrased as taking time, rather than possession. The concept of "sharing" is really impossible for toddlers, it starts to make sense much later. And in the end plenty of people - adults - share far less easily than children!


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## MarineWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx* 
And in the end plenty of people - adults - share far less easily than children!

This is so true. I present things to my dh that way. If he gets to harping on making the kids share, I bring up how upset he gets if our teenage takes something of his like his leather jacket that he hasn't worn in years.


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## joanna0707

So what would you do if you go to someone else's house and there are lots of toys and the other child won't let your child play with any of them?

We visited my girlfriend yesterday, she has lots of toys so I thought that sharing should not be a big problem. I was so wrong,no matter which toy my son chose to play, the other boy instantly wanted. I understand that it was hard for him to share and I tried to ask him politely if DS can play with some of his toys. Once only he agreed and gave a toy to DS willingly.
DS was getting really frustrated, every toy was being taken away from him, I wasn't sure how to react. My friend kept taking toys away form her son and giving them to DS, which I'm sure made the boy even less likely to share.


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## Devaya

Marine Wife, thanks for the suggestions, and no, I don't think you're patting yourself on the back, just giving us a view from further down the line.

I like the idea of seeing it as 'taking turns' (time) rather than 'sharing', and particularly like the concept of the child giving the toy to someone else to use, if they choose, when they have finished with it rather than just because someone else is demanding it. So I've changed tack and have been saying 'I think J was busy using that still, maybe you could have a turn when he's finished with it' or something along those lines. I find actually the main problem is OTHER children snatching toys off DS when he's mid flow playing with them and then he gets v upset. Today he had a few explosions where he threw toys everywhere b/c he was so frustrated at that happening repeatedly in a playgroup setting, with the little boy who I do a regular 'childcare swap' with the mom. They get on well in general and enjoy each other's company, it seems, but he tends to do that constantly, while DS only rarely tries to take something off him. He also destroys his games and the way he's lined up cars, etc, all the time. So I've been empathising aloud with what DS is feeling and also trying to for the boy, 'Oh you really wanted to play with that too,' but it is hard b/c I feel protective of my boy and can see how frustrating he's finding it!

Joanna, I've been in the same situation you describe (a bit like the one above), a few times, and I don't really know what I'd do...it's a tough one.


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## harrietsmama

One suggestion I have heard that seems to help is to have the hos1t child choose a few things that are 'no touchies' to be put aside, and choose a few things he thinks his guest would like to play with and then he can show them to the guest child. I didn't personally face this, my kids had so many friends coming around and we went to their houses a lot, it rarely came up. MAybe because it was always a little different every time instead of the same 2 scenarios repeated?


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## mckennasmomma

I'm really struggling today. I keep pouring on the love and feel like I"m getting beaten up in return.

DD is 14 months. She is adorable, funny, smart, and amazing in so many ways. But she also battles me like crazy. I'm trying so hard to figure out what her needs are and meet them. I think her primary need when she is battling me is the need for control over her own body. And I try to give her that as much as I can, but there are some things I HAVE to do and do for her. Here are my situations as well as what I am trying to do about them. Seems like each solution will work a few times, then stop working.

*putting on her diaper or clothes:*
I give her lots of diaper free time. I give myself lots of time when I need to get her dressed to go somewhere, so we can do it in bits and pieces. When I do need to get her ready to go, I try a variety of things like:
-put her on the changing table, or do it on the floor right where she is
-sing a song, play some music
-make it a game
ultimately it seems like i just have to wrestle it on her. I HATE that.

*wiping off her face/hands after she eats:*
-sometimes she'll "do it herself" (place her hand in the towel to "give me five" and I can do a quick wipe, or even dab at her own face with the towel)
-make it a game of wiping my own face, then wiping hers
ultimately it seems like I just have to wrestle her to get it done. I HATE that.

today, *trying to clip her fingernails:*
-usually what works is letting her play with one set of nail clippers in one hand while I clip the other hand. that didn't work today.
-sing a song
ultimately today she threw a fit and then let me know she wanted to nurse, so I was halfway able to clip them while she was nursing.

*naps:*
sleep is a huge long saga around here, but typically she falls asleep very easily (thank goodness since she doesn't stay asleep!). But sometimes she fights falling asleep at naptime, and I end up wrestling with her until she does fall asleep. I HATE that!









The bottom line is that I feel like I am _doing to_ her rather than _working with_ her so much of the time. I don't want to do that at all. I want to work with her, and have things happen lovingly and easily. Maybe what I really need is a new perspective on those situations. Any ideas?


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## babeak

First time visiting this thread. THanks. I needed to be reminded of the list in the first post. I look forward to reading this thread.

Today was a challenging day for oh so many reasons. I thought went rather on my part considering all of the stuff being thrown my way, well up until the very end of our day. Ergh.... I wish that I had read this list. I had wanted to post it on my fridge when I first read the book. However, now is the perfect opportunity to.

Tomorrow is another day.

Thanks


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
I keep pouring on the love and feel like I"m getting beaten up in return.

I've used these exact same words so many times...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
there are some things I HAVE to do and do for her.

some yes, but some - maybe no... for example:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
*putting on her diaper or clothes:*
I give her lots of diaper free time. I give myself lots of time when I need to get her dressed to go somewhere, so we can do it in bits and pieces.

Daily I find that we can't get out of the house happily if I insist on 20 month old son getting dressed fully. He's usually running around in leggings and a shirt, diaper free, so if I can't happily get more clothes on him before we leave home in the car, I just bring the rest of the outfit with us, and he's always willing to get dressed the rest of the way once we get to our destination. I can't tell you how many times we've arrived nakey-butt at playgroup, but once we're there, he's slightly clingy at first and I have my chance. Also, having arrived at the grocery store, he's still strapped into the car seat, and I can get underwear and pants and socks and shoes all on, at least up to his knees, then pull it up the rest of the way once he's unbuckled. This might be the same as physical restraint, but he's cheerfully chewing on a snack, checking out the parking lot, and not minding. Now that it's cold out, all this means that I have to get the car warmed up, and accept him being a little cold sometimes. He's fine with it, and ultimately it's fine with me too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
*wiping off her face/hands after she eats:*

We're the family with the grubby-faced kid, because it's just not worth the misery for me. Now, he likes to help "wipe" the table, and tries to wipe his face too. Once he's done trying, I show him with a mirror the grubby bits and he can keep working at it, or he's curious to see me make them disappear. But more often, he just has a dirty face til bathtime. Different rules for runny noses, of course - we did the forced wipe, but began (gross alert) showing him the contents of the tissue. Now he tries to get his own enchanting mucus out all by himself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
*trying to clip her fingernails:*

only while sleeping! I keep the nailclippers in the car and I hit one or two a day when he falls asleep there before transferring him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
sometimes she fights falling asleep at naptime, and I end up wrestling with her until she does fall asleep.

That's my most hopeless moment. Ultimately it means that there may be a napless day. I try all my tricks from 12 - 2 (rocking chair, stroller, ergo, back to the car) but if by 2 there is no nap, I get a hot cup of tea and make a fun afternoon plan.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
The bottom line is that I feel like I am _doing to_ her rather than _working with_ her so much of the time. I don't want to do that at all. I want to work with her, and have things happen lovingly and easily.

This idea has been bothering me since his birth. I have my own issues with being taken care of, so I assume that everyone hates being infantalized, even infants. Now that I have a raving toddler, there is so much more negotiation every day, and I hate most the moments when I trick him by "letting him choose" between 2 things he really doesn't want. We avoid the total physical wrangling by me just giving it up, or sneaking around in his sleep as above. I just HATE it, as you do, and when I do it, I get fearful about teaching a boy that physical strength trumps will. Submit submit, flexibility even when I really need to do something else, remember that if it doesn't feel good to me then it will never feel good to him either... I try also in hard moments to imagine a loving open cooperative relationship with a future teenager -- yowza. That's what I'm building toward for inspiration.

Blessings on your sore heart.


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## mckennasmomma

thank you so much, lcbmax. that helps a lot. especially this line: "remember that if it doesn't feel good to me then it will never feel good to him either... I try also in hard moments to imagine a loving open cooperative relationship with a future teenager"

i have so far to go. i know i'm doing my best though.


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## jennchsm

Oooh, this sounds really familiar! I feel like I've been struggling with these exact same issues for a while now. My son is 20-ish months, so a bit older than your DD, but I can tell you what we've tried.

*putting on her diaper or clothes:*

This has been a hard one for us too. When he was around 14 months was when it seemed like it was the worst. He would scream bloody murder throughout the diaper change, and I would end up in tears. One thing that worked at that age was that I made up a little song called "Diaper Change Time" that had a little dance to go along with it, and I would sing that to him before we even headed for the changing pad. He would laugh, and I kept singing it all through the change. That worked like magic for about a month. Then he would hear the song and run, LOL!

Then he was getting a little more verbal, so I would tell him it was time to change his diaper. If he said "no" or ran away, I would say, "OK, we'll change it in a few minutes, then." A few minutes later, I would try again. If it was a wet diaper, I found that he would eventually let me change it without much of a fuss. If it was poopy, I would tell him, "Sorry, but we have to change this one now." And then I had a special song I made up about poopy diapers that would generally get us through it. He also enjoys helping me flush the poop down the toilet afterwards, and then we make a big deal out of washing our hands.

Now he will usually tell us when he has a poopy diaper, and will sometimes request a diaper change. Recently he had a bad rash, and diaper changes became painful, so that threw us off. I'm working to get us back to the peaceful point again!

Clothes often involve a game of "chase", which DS loves. He'll giggle and run away when we come at him with clothes, and we'll play chase for a few minutes before we catch him and put the clothes on. By then he's usually laughing so much he doesn't mind. He prefers to change clothes standing up, too. Oh, and the chase game is often played before diaper changes and baths.

*wiping off her face/hands after she eats:*

This is a universal one, isn't it? What works for us these days is that I makes airplane noises and pretend the washcloth is an airplane flying all around the kitchen. It occasionally swoops in to wipe at DS's face and hands. When I say it's time to wash up, he now says, "airplane!" He also likes washing his hands in the sink, so sometimes we'll do that instead of washing up in the high chair, though he will then spend a long time "washing". That's where the Learning Tower comes in handy! I'm hoping in a few years I'll be able to hand him dishes to rinse off while he's at it...

*trying to clip her fingernails:*

DS's nails are ridiculously long for exactly this reason. What works for us is the "small steps" approach, which is also how we handle tooth brushing. What I mean by that is that my goal is to get a few nails clipped, and any more than that is bonus. First I let him check out the clippers for a bit, and when he's satisfied that he knows what they are, he'll watch me clip the first few nails. He usually only has patience for 3. Then we stop and I try to do more later.

*naps:*

I decided a while back, after a really traumatic afternoon of fighting with DS, that I wasn't going to fight this battle any more. I figured that when he gets tired, he'll go to sleep, and I couldn't make him do it. And so for a good 5 months now we have had no set bedtimes or naptimes. When he's ready for a nap, he'll come to me and will fall asleep nursing. (With his babysitter or DH, he'll crawl into their laps and cuddle until he falls asleep.) Once he's out, we lay him on the bed in the guest room, which has become our "nap" room. We do this at bedtime as well.

Is it inconvenient at times? Sure. But does it work? Yes. Perhaps I'm blessed with a child who doesn't need regular routines or regular naptimes, but we've all been happier since I started letting him decide when to go to sleep. He takes solid 2-hour naps every day, any time from 12-5, and he sleeps 10 hours a night, with bedtime ranging from 9-10:30 pm. Sometimes he isn't ready to go to sleep when we go to bed at 10:00 (we cosleep), so DH and I get in bed and turn off the lights, and tell him we're going to sleep and to let us know when he's ready. He'll wander around (everything's really baby-proofed) by the light of the nightlight for about 10 minutes, and then we'll hear a little "up!" from the side of the bed. He'll then settle down and go to sleep.

Nontraditional, to be sure! I don't know if any of that will work for you, but it worked for us. Some of it's a work in progress, but in general I do feel like we're working with him than against him as he becomes more and more independent.

Good luck!


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## mckennasmomma

wow, lot of great ideas, thanks! Perhaps the most helpful thing is hearing from other mamas that these are such normal struggles.


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## joanna0707

Jennchm, your post inspired me to make changes with our bedtime routine, it usually is a fight. Often after the bath DS wants to go downstairs but I keep him in the bedroom because it's time to sleep.He gets very upset sometimes and I'm tired of this. I'll have to figure out how to change things. I usually study in the evening when DS is asleep, how and when will I do that if he stays up 'till 10 PM? Need to figure that out.


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## babeak

In review of previous posts, I was wondering if there are more ideas on how to do this. DD is now 2 and it continues to be a battle. I cannot do it while she is sleep because she still jerks away from me or even worse will wake up. We have even had 2 of us doing her nails at night and still did not work.

I have tried all kinds of things:
1. Address her needs and desires and agree to do hands and toes at separate times. I thought oh great this stuff really does work and then for subsequent sessions it was the same story.

2. Let her play with the clippers and pretend cutting my nails and hers.

3. Songs

4. Distractions/ Books

I just discovered today that I missed her thumb the other day :-(. She has way longer nails than I would have ever envisioned, however, the toes started breaking and that was not good. They need to be cut on a regular basis.

Any other ideas. I just absolutely HATE doing her nails because it is the one thing that is guaranteed to have a negative impact on our day. It is SO frustrating negotiating this each and every excruciating time we have to cut nails. Something that should take 10-15 minutes tops takes us hours to do. Each time unfortunately thereafter I feel like I have less and less patience to deal with this one issue.

Ideas? Scenarios? words? phrases? Routines? Anyone else have a really difficult time cutting nails?

THanks


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## Labbemama

Thank you for this thread it was really encouraging and had a lot of good ideas that I'm reflecting on.


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## mckennasmomma

babeak, the only other things i can think of are:
1-just try to cut 1 or 2 a day, and call it a success!
2-let it go. not nessarily stop cutting her nails, but let go of the idea that you "have to" cut her nails. allow yourself to see it as a bonus if you trim one or two sometimes. when it stops being a big deal to you, it just might stop being a big deal to your dd too.


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## joanna0707

I had a great idea for diaper changes, we draw on diapers before we change them, DS is having lots of fun


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
I had a great idea for diaper changes, we draw on diapers before we change them, DS is having lots of fun









Unless you use cloth diapers... ;-)


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## Devaya

I haven't been on here for a while and it's good to read the tips and ideas about avoiding battles. I've been finding it much easier leaving places (usually a trigger point for 'spirited' DS) by waiting for the 'natural gap' Scott NOelle talks about, rather than forcing my will. Unfortunately though I do still find many situations where I feel I have no choice but to do that - and it makes me feel awful. For e.g. I have to get to work, and despite working DS up to leaving wherever we are, for the past 20 minutes, he STILL doesn't want to go, and eventually I 'have' to strap him into the buggy, like it or not. And I find it hard when he refuses all the options: I give him loads of time to walk and take his time, try to avoid rushing him, leave with ample time to walk, etc, and so his buggy time is very limited, as he likes it to be (we don't have a car and live in a walkable city, occasionally take buses). But often he'll get tired from walking and want to be picked up and carried, which I can't do while pushing the buggy as well (it immediately feels like it's putting my hip and back out and is very awkward), but he'll refuse to get in the back carry (ergo) which you'd think would help as it's the close contact he seems to want.

So it becomes me going 'Okay, so you don't want to walk anymore. Would you like to go in the buggy or be carried on my back?' and all I get is 'no' and a refusal to budge. I feel really stuck with this one. Sometimes I can wait, sometimes I can't wait forever and we're on a busy pavement with lots of people getting annoyed at us being in the way. I feel we do have to consider others as well (and want to model that for him). Any suggestions , anyone?

I also find myself bundling him into the buggy at times against his will b/c he desperately needs a nap (is beside himself with tiredness) and won't fall asleep another way, and I know within minutes of being pushed in the buggy he'll be sound asleep. But he doesn't want to go in (he usually fights sleep). I can't help thinking: but in this case I know what's best for him. Yet I don't want him to learn, as has been said on this thread, that physical force wins. Similar with him refusing to have his rain cover on : he screamed for 20 minutes the other day in pouring rain when I had it on, and finally I took it off and let him get wet because I couldn't take it anymore. I've learned and now try to get waterproofs and boots on him before we go out, but often he refuses those too! Sigh. I know, he's two


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I also find myself bundling him into the buggy at times against his will b/c he desperately needs a nap (is beside himself with tiredness) and won't fall asleep another way, and I know within minutes of being pushed in the buggy he'll be sound asleep. But he doesn't want to go in (he usually fights sleep). I can't help thinking: but in this case I know what's best for him. Yet I don't want him to learn, as has been said on this thread, that physical force wins.

I totally know this one. I've been struggling with it since my 21 month old son was newborn. I hate the moments in which I really believe it is necessary to force him into something. I applaud you for letting your child get wet in the rain, I strive toward those kind of reconsiderations.

The ways in which physical domination are a natural part of parenting are really challenging for me - almost as challenging as a toddler who begs to see dada, but refuses to get in the car so we can get home. And yet with my son, if I continue to offer choices in an unlimited way, I believe he feels too much in control - indeed, a 2 year old should NOT really be running the show, and they know it.

Yesterday it worked, sort of, to explain, AGAIN, where we are going, how we will get there, what we will see on the way, and then ask "What do you need to get in the car?" (Silence.) "Do you need to tickle a giraffe?" (Noooo.) "Do you need to pee?" (Noooo.) "Do you need .... insert other silly things...?" (Nooo.) Finally, with a leading tone of voice: "Oh I know! Do you need Mommy to run around in 3 wild and crazy circle to get in the car?" (Yeeaaaaahhh!)

There was still arching of the back and (nooooo car seeeaaaat!) as I got him in, but I just kept up a quiet, uncharged prattle about "I know this is hard but this is how we go home. I wonder if we'll see the train tracks when we drive, or maybe the backhoe, or a big rig, or a bird. Well, we'll have to keep our eyes open and look for all those fun things on our way home to see dada. I wonder what dada is doing, he's probably making buttery rice for you. Yum, I love buttery rice." And by that time, the car seat is buckled, and he's asking for music.

This feels like success of a kind, but I wonder what it would take to not have to force the little body into the straps, and still let him know that the grownups have a plan he can rely on.

My friend said yesterday that they had to abandon trying to get her little girl to go into her preschool (after an absence for illness) because the tantrum was just insurmountable. The mama was sure it was her own and dh's fault, since they had felt ambivalent about sending the child, and she overheard that conversation. This is a kid who needs to know that there is a definite plan, and that the people who are in charge really do know what they are doing (or can at least fake it convincingly!) I empathize. I also want to believe that the people in charge have a plan and believe in it. I think my son has this need too, to some evolving degree. He's greatly soothed when we follow through on a plan, even if it's not the plan he really wants.

Still unsure how to make this jive with UP. Maybe it's a question of age, and a 4 year old can be more of a deciding partner in decision and plan making, more of the time.

What a dance of cooperative living and limit setting...


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## mckennasmomma

those are some really interesting points and examples, LCBMAX.


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## crow lady

I am so grateful for this thread. Today I really needed to read the stories and experiences and advice that everyone has shared. I could sit here and quote everyone as I have sat here for the last hour (I started reading at the beginning) nodding my head and almost in tears as you all have reflected my own experiences. Today I felt horrible as I saw myself forcing my 2 year old into his car seat because I needed to pee and the park we were at had no facilities. Getting in the car seat has been a struggle lately, even when I allow him to go at his own pace sometimes. I have received some great encouragement and inspiration from this thread. I feel very grateful.
Thanks to all for sharing.


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## Devaya

LCBMAX, thank you for describing what you do with the car situation. I'm going to try being more calm and matter of fact like that. We had another battle this morning going to nursery (putting him in the buggy, no choice bc we were running late despite my best efforts!), but actually I think you have a point about at this age, maybe needing to know that we are in charge and it's all okay. Because he stopped screaming as soon as he was strapped in, and then was fine. (wasn't sulking or anything). I think that may be because I've been accommodating his needs wherever possible with NOT going in the buggy, but being quite firm and at the same time validating his feelings 'Oh, it's hard, you don't like being put in the buggy, I know you want to walk/stay where we are/ whatever', and he's sort of learning that that's what happens, and it isn't the end of the world.

I spent the weekend at a friend's, she also has a 2 year old, and her friend with a 6 yr old and 21 month old were staying there too. It was SO interesting b/c they are all very controlling and punitive, and the whole weekend guess who had the most tantrums, battles and struggles (necessitating MORE control, then MORE tantrums): the kids who were being parented that way. My son, despite being not in his home and in a different environment he's only visited occasionally, was absolutely cheerful, calm and integrated all the way. Yes, he has his days, of course, but I could really see the difference, mainly in the way the PARENTS just weren't having a good time, weren't relaxed, b/c they were constantly trying to force things and stop things, and picking on every little issue. I don't want to turn this into a bash of 'Non-UP parents', I'm just trying to say that it was validating for me b/c I often suffer from so much self doubt as a parent. What really struck me again was just seeing how the difference is, treating your child as a person worthy of respect. There were so many situations where the other parents could have handled things that way but chose instead to be coercive, and then it would just turn into a battle. We did have some interesting parenting discussions (about sharing, forcing sharing etc) Mostly I find people just don't 'get' it!


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
I usually study in the evening when DS is asleep, how and when will I do that if he stays up 'till 10 PM? Need to figure that out.

I have the same problem, actually. I teach at a university and have a new course this semester, so I am pretty much spending all of DS's naps working. Sometimes I'm not ready for the next day's class and have hours of work to do before I go to bed, and when DS is still awake at 10:00pm, it's hard to be patient, knowing I'll going to be up until 2:00am if he doesn't go to sleep soon.

It's motivated me to work smarter during the day to avoid having to stay up so late. But I'll be glad when this semester is over!


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I spent the weekend at a friend's, she also has a 2 year old, and her friend with a 6 yr old and 21 month old were staying there too. It was SO interesting b/c they are all very controlling and punitive, and the whole weekend guess who had the most tantrums, battles and struggles (necessitating MORE control, then MORE tantrums): the kids who were being parented that way. My son, despite being not in his home and in a different environment he's only visited occasionally, was absolutely cheerful, calm and integrated all the way. [...] I'm just trying to say that it was validating for me b/c I often suffer from so much self doubt as a parent. What really struck me again was just seeing how the difference is, treating your child as a person worthy of respect.

This is great to hear! I think about this issue a lot myself. On many of the parenting boards I frequent, I see people posting about putting their toddlers in time out all the time, some as young as 13 months. And of course, they're generally complaining that it's not working.

I guess what gets me about that is that I seriously cannot imagine my 22mo doing something I'd want to punish him for. He's a very normal toddler who is curious and climbs and tears into things and explores and makes messes and runs and does everything toddlers are supposed to do. It's not like he's some docile little angel who sits quietly and plays!

So when I ask these folks what their child is doing to deserve time out, they say he's throwing food from the high chair, or hitting the cat (no matter how many times they've told her not to, LOL), and so on -- things that my child does too. But I don't see that behavior as something to be controlled or punished. I see it as normal exploratory behavior. Why would I punish my child for being a child? They also describe their children as "defiant" and "willful", and seem to interpret their behavior as being intentionally rebellious. I don't know how someone can claim a toddler is being rebellious when they don't yet have the ability to imagine someone else's point of view. You have to be aware of other people's thought processes and ideas as separate from your own in order to rebel against them! Toddlers are very self-centered, but that's totally normal.

Anyway, people seem to think this means we let our son run wild, and maybe to an extent we do. But if his behavior is destructive or harmful, we find ways to redirect him or use it as a teaching moment. For example, hitting the cat: Every time he approaches the cat we say, "Oh, you're going to pet the kitty!" to remind him of how to touch the kitty nicely. For a while DH would say "Don't hit the cat!" every time DS got near her, and sure enough, he'd hit the cat. We realized we were actually giving him the idea to hit her, rather than to pet her gently. He didn't understand the subtleties of the language enough to know we were saying NOT to hit her, and even if he did, he wouldn't know the alternative to hitting! Once we changed our language to reinforce how you gently pet a cat, his behavior changed as well. This happened within a few days, like magic. This was something he needed to be taught, not punished for.

I feel confident in our choices, but I still like reassurance every now and then that this is going to work out the way we want it to! Sometimes it's hard to be the only one doing it this way, you know?


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennchsm* 
Every time he approaches the cat we say, "Oh, you're going to pet the kitty!" to remind him of how to touch the kitty nicely. For a while DH would say "Don't hit the cat!" every time DS got near her, and sure enough, he'd hit the cat. We realized we were actually giving him the idea to hit her, rather than to pet her gently. He didn't understand the subtleties of the language enough to know we were saying NOT to hit her, and even if he did, he wouldn't know the alternative to hitting! Once we changed our language to reinforce how you gently pet a cat, his behavior changed as well. This happened within a few days, like magic. This was something he needed to be taught, not punished for.

GREAT reminder, thanks so much - our animals have been suffering patiently waiting for us to be retaught this idea. Dogs will have a much happier evening tonight. Tally and Oogie thank you, jennchsm!


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## thelocknestmother

SOOOOO happy to have found this thread. Haven't had a chance to read it (about to after I finish subbing). But I am in need of some UP support. I have some friends IRL who also practice UP, but they all have younger children (except 1 family). I am just struggling with some of DD's two-year-old toddler behaviors and would like to see how others have dealt with similar issues. One current issue is sleep...Meaning DD's new habit of resisting it...she is a co-sleeping, breastfeeding 28 mo. old. I am struggling between setting appropriate boundaries to keep her healthy and well-rested, but in a UP way. Any thoughts?? Sorry not that specific, want to get reading to see if my answer is already in the thread.


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## thelocknestmother

Alright...So I am so excited already because I see some posts about all the issues we are struggling with...diaper changes, actually wearing cloths, getting ready to go and IN the car seat, bedtime, nail-clipping...So nice to know I am not the only one.


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## joanna0707

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
We did have some interesting parenting discussions (about sharing, forcing sharing etc) Mostly I find people just don't 'get' it!


I know, what you mean, sometimes it feels like talking to a wall









Recently I've had a discussion with a very anti-UP mom, no matter how hard I would try to convince her that small children can be included in decision making and they are able to participate etc. and it doesn't mean that the child is spoiled, I wasn't able to explain it. She kept saying that small children need us to set boundaries, they need us to make decisions for them, this is what parents are for. Very frustrating


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## Harmony08

Hello!!!!!

I have read the WHOLE thread. It took me awhile but I did it. I found it very interesting. I have just begun my journey into this new world. I read UP years ago before it even came out. I was at an Alphie Kohn talk and bought a copy. He signed it and chatted....okay yeah, I'm bragging a little.

My son is 13 mos so we are embarking on this and I am so happy to have found this thread. Thank you all for sharing and advising.

This is the best thread on MDC!


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## Harmony08

I wanted to say something regarding the discussion a page or 2 back about having to physically force kids sometimes. My son HATES getting in the carseat, having his diaper changed, and the worst thing of all time......rinsing the hair...sigh.

MarineWife talked about this somewhere in the thread that AP says in UP that there will always be things we NEED to make our kids do but we can still allow and honor their feelings about it. Like the carseat....there just isn't another choice and sometimes the more it is drawn out the worse it gets..like we say once they are in there they get over it. I think it is completely normal for a human to resist getting strapped into something. I guess the un UP thing would be to say things like "This isn't a big deal..come on already...it is just a carseat...give it a rest...control yourself...you're really okay....this is ridiculous"...etc. From my understanding of UP if something is really a non negotiable like this is is fine to get it over with as gently and calmly as possible while saying things like one of the PP's said....a stream of understanding and pleasantness..."I see you don't want to get in the carseat. You are really showing me that this isn't what you want right now. What music should we listen to? I know..let's sing!" etc.

My big challenge when I have to do one of these things is to keep my own emotions under control. I feel like if I get worked up in my head about how awful it is that I have to rinse his hair and I feel guilty and start doubting myself...I feel like I communicate that to him and he gets more worked up cause he feeds off me. I have observed how attuned to my emotional world he really is. I am trying to stay sensitive to him while staying centered in my own emotions. I hate upsetting him but I also don't want to communicate to him that it is an emotional trauma to have your hair rinsed. I want him to look in my eyes and see calm and certainty and love and know that even though it is uncomfortable in the moment that it is nothing I am afraid of and therefore nothing for him to fear.


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## thelocknestmother

We had a hard morning this morning, re: getting dressed to leave for the gardens. I tried so hard to validate her feeling, but still get her dressed (it was 40 degrees here), yet she was still upset and I felt awful. I guess I could have stayed home and skipped the gardens, but I knew once we got there she would have fun. And she did. But then at the end, she started running around (by all the fancy breakable Christmas trees) and I tried simply talking with her about walking slowly, but she kept running, so I picked her up to hold her, saying I am sorry I know you really want to run right now, but we can only walk slowly so I am going to hold you. The she started yelling that I was hurting her (she is 2 yrs) and I most definitely was not, she just didn't want to be held. So again I stated her feelings and why I had to hold her, saying we could run in a minute when we got outside. Any suggestions how I should have handle these issues differently?
Harmony08, I know what you mean about emotions. DD is so sensitive to my emotional state, in two ways. If I am flustered, it does not help out at all, or in the same line, if I am anxious about something going "wrong" usually it will, but if I am calm and confident, it usually goes better. Too, I find if I am committed, DD challenges less and is more likely to go along smoothly with whatever; e.g., bedtime lately she has wanted to be walked and nursed to sleep, but I am getting to the point where I just can't. She is over 30 pounds, and I am 23 weeks or so pregnant, I just can't walk her, holding in cradle hold for 30 minutes of more, so I give her the choice of laying down or rocking, if I waver at all, and think "I coulllld walk her", then she throws a tantrum until I walk, but if I am resolved that walking is just not good for me and my baby in utero, she doesn't". It really is amazing how sensitive children are to our emotions/mental state.
Oh, and PS DD refuses to have her hair washed...I end up pseudo-washing it with a spray bottle, not perfect but it is getting us by. If I wash her hair too much, she refuses baths all together, and that just doesn't work for a full-time messy toddler.


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## jennchsm

I'm currently reading "Parenting for a Peaceful World" and find it very much in line with UP so far. Has anyone else read it? Has it helped you refine your ideas about how to implement UP?


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## mckennasmomma

I haven't heard of PPW, but it sounds great by the title! Who is the author?


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## joanna0707

For those having problems with hair washing, did you try offering your children to do it themselves? For some kids this works wonders

Our main problem lately is getting DH into the bathtub without forcing him. I've tried everything, I make it fun, I offer him choices: with bubbles or no bubbles, with mom or dad, before dinner or after dinner, he can take any toy he wants with him etc. Still we end up forcing him. Once he's in the bathtub he's fine but getting him in is impossible.

Any suggestions?


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## Harmony08

Hey,

He is 13 mos, he can't rinse his own hair yet unfortunately. He can pour the water all over his face and cough and choke but nope not the hair yet. Maybe soon! I am so going to try the spray bottle thing. Thanks Locknestmother!

I went to a talk once about little kids and transitions. It was very interesting about how some of us are much better at transitions than others. I know that they are tough for me. Getting out of bed..getting into the shower...getting out for a walk...going to yoga..even going to bed "I don't want to get ready for bed. I just want to BE in bed" I am happy once I do any of these things but man..

Joanna, do your think your son's bathtime resistance is actually about the bathtime or more about making it through the transition to the bathtime? Maybe if you focused more on easing the transition than making the actual bath more enticing. Just a thought!


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## joanna0707

Harmony, that's very interesting

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Harmony08* 
Joanna, do your think your son's bathtime resistance is actually about the bathtime or more about making it through the transition to the bathtime? Maybe if you focused more on easing the transition than making the actual bath more enticing. Just a thought!


I think the resistance is more about getting in the bathtub, usually once DS is in the bathtub he plays happily. He also gets upset when I take him out of the bathtub even if he tells me he's done and wants to get out.

How can I help him with the transition?


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
How can I help him with the transition?

Yes! Any ideas on this? It's the exact same thing here and we're just managing with sponge baths and the occasional splash in the sink. Help!


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## mckennasmomma

my only suggestions are things I'm sure you have already tried. My DD is 15 months old, so you may have to adapt your strategies to be age appropriate too:
-time warnings. "we're going to take a bath in 10 mins" "we're going to take a bath in 5 mins" etc.
-say "bye bye" to whatever it is you are leaving. we say this a LOT. It really helps her. Sometimes we do a special byebye song we learned at Music Together (Bye Bye toys, Toys away)
-"Let's do one more ______ and then we are going to _____. What would you like to choose for your last ____?"

That's all I got.


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## joanna0707

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
my only suggestions are things I'm sure you have already tried. My DD is 15 months old, so you may have to adapt your strategies to be age appropriate too:
-time warnings. "we're going to take a bath in 10 mins" "we're going to take a bath in 5 mins" etc.
-say "bye bye" to whatever it is you are leaving. we say this a LOT. It really helps her. Sometimes we do a special byebye song we learned at Music Together (Bye Bye toys, Toys away)
-"Let's do one more ______ and then we are going to _____. What would you like to choose for your last ____?"

That's all I got.

mckennasmomma, this is GREAT stuff









We used to do "bye bye" to everything a lot, why did I stop doing it? Thanks for the reminder
Instead of saying "let's do one more_____" I always say "This is the last time we do it", it doesn't sound as good as" Let's do it one more time", I'll try to change that
Time warnings haven't worked for us, maybe timer will be a better solution


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## Harmony08

Hey,

I offer the following to help with transitions in general. It is mix of what I have learned through working with young kids, listening and talking with other teachers, reading, and the talk I went to. My son is 13 mos so we still get away with a lot of distraction and redirection. These days are numbered, however. Thanks for making me think back to this kind of info. So keep in mind that I haven't had the bath situation yet. I have dealt with classroom situations. I tried to offer ideas about the bath situation using my experience in the classroom but I am very aware that things are much different when you are parenting your own child so if they are silly ideas I apologize.

Just understanding that transitions are difficult is a good start. Current activity is secure, known, certain, and stable. A transition is unsecure, unknown, uncertain, and unstable. There is a loosey goosey feeling in the transition that makes some people very uncomfortable. As we know, young kids are very much in the present moment so it s hard for them to realize they will be very happy once they are on the walk/in the bubble bath/at the playgroup.

Anything you can do to shorten the transition and or minimize the discomfort of the transition will help. You may not always be able to eliminate the discomfort and the behaviors but you can probably always minimize them.

Here are some ideas to try. Ultimately, all children are different. Pick and choose what works with your's.

1.Prepare for transition
Generally, I find that children handle transitions better when given warnings that a transition is about to occur and are told in advance about the transition. This minimizes the unknown and unexpectedness. For some children, however, it creates more anxiety and prolongs the transition period. These kids require more creativity and gentleness. Instead of a five minute reminder before a diaper change they may need a silly dance session or game to get them to the table and then a quick diaper change full of silly songs and distractions. They may still protest (and of course they may) but the uncomfortable transition period has been cut short and they are usually happier this way. You aren't tricking them. You are shortening the amount of time in between activities.

2.Shorten the transition period
Do what you can ahead of time to prepare for the transition so it can be as short as possible.

3.Turn the transition itself into and activity
This will work best if it is either an activity that the child already knows and loves (dancing, reading, chasing etc) or an activity so novel and enticing no child could refuse. I read about a mom who would let her kids use paint or markers in and ON the bathtub and would then hose them off. Definitely an enticing way to get them into the bathtub.

4.Bridge the two activities somehow
As I said earlier kids have a hard time projecting themselves into the future scenario. Therefore, anything that helps the brain connect the two activities may help. If a he is playing in the living room and has to go to the bathroom perhaps he can take the Duplos to the bath. Maybe some bath books or toys could live in the living room to be chosen and taken to the bathroom and vice versa. Maybe one parent can leave the living room and go play in the bathroom. Maybe you run the bubble bath and bring a handful of bubles to him to spark his interest and then tell him there are lots more in the bathroom. You get the idea. Something that can help his brain connect his current activity to the next one.

5.Minimize the unknown
Make a book about it. You could take pictures of him getting ready for a bath and taking a bath and make a little book. Then just leave it around and read it casually so he gets very familiar with the process. IME, kids love looking at pictures of themselves and their parents.

Give baby dolls a bath and go through the same process he does. Again, this will familiarize him with the process but will also allow him the opportunity to be in the parent role. Watching him play this may give you insights into his feelings about it.

6.Think about what helps you
Think of transitions that are tough for you and what helps you through them. See if you can apply what you learn to your child.

7.Get super creative and wacky
The woman I saw speak about transitions called herself an Early Childhood Practitioner. She had been teaching young children for 100 years or so. She was all about engaging a child's 5 senses.

Aromatherapy-She used aromatherapy (the playtime smell would fade out and be replaced by the storytime smell). A subtle signal to children that a transition is coming before she ever said a word about it.
Music- Same thing, different kinds of music for different periods. A change in environment before the verbal direction. She also had tons of gentle songs for each transition.
Touch-She would flit around the room with a long silky scarf or fluffy piece of wool and invite each child to meet her at the door/on the rug to feel it more.
Sight-She would light a candle somewhere or unfurl a beautiful scarf or painting to get their attention and alert them to the change.
I can't remember a taste example. Maybe there wasn't one.

8. Connect to the child's reality. Attune to his emotional world.
Before announcing a transition, get down on the floor with the child. Observe what he is doing/thinking/feeling. This will help you decide when/if to end the current activity. Connect to him gently through the play and gently announce the upcoming transition.

9. Look for the natural breaks.
Sometimes kids offer us natural breaks in the activity. Like asking for a snack, a story, or a cuddle. Use these opportunities to transition. It is easier to transition at a break in activity than it is during deep play. Much the way it is easier to wake up in between sleep cycles rather then during one.

Like I said, I haven't tested any of this out as a parent. So, do with this info what you will.

Peace!


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## mckennasmomma

wow, awesome harmony08! i copied that list in to a document for future reference.


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## LCBMAX

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
wow, awesome harmony08! i copied that list in to a document for future reference.

me toooooo!


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## joanna0707

me tooooo









This is really awesome, thanks a lot for taking time to write about transition

Using five senses - that's genius, I will definitely try using music and candles since my son loves both
also making books with pictures of our children preparing for the bath or some other activity - I love love love this idea to

Without even knowing it I've been using some of the ideas described above.
I try not to interrupt when DH is in deep play.
In preparation for toilet training I started changing diapers in the bathroom, I always keep few toys and books there, usually something he's interested in at the time, this made our transition to the diaper changes a lot easier and today for the first time ever he told me he has a poopy diaper and headed to the bathroom







it seems like he is finally familiar with the process


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## jennchsm

Harmony, thanks so much for that aweosme post! I C&P'd it to a file too! Would you mind if I pass that on (with credit, of course)?


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## Harmony08

Oh I am so glad everyone has found my post to be helpful! I am always nervous about giving advice from my teacher days. Sure jennchsm, pass it on. I am always up for helping other parents out.


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## quester

Just found this thread and am up to page 8...


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## Theia

I've read UP and I am glad to find this tribe. My coming 2yo challenges me and sometimes I feel so lost, and revert back to doing to rather than doing with. But sometimes I wonder if I take the doing with too far, like helping her clean up her toys. I'm completely guilty of being in a hurry all the time. I think that rule is so hard for me. Anyway, glad to find a place where I can find support and advice from other UP parents.


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## thelocknestmother

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theia* 
I've read UP and I am glad to find this tribe. My coming 2yo challenges me and sometimes I feel so lost, and revert back to doing to rather than doing with. But sometimes I wonder if I take the doing with too far, like helping her clean up her toys. I'm completely guilty of being in a hurry all the time. I think that rule is so hard for me. Anyway, glad to find a place where I can find support and advice from other UP parents.
















Being in hurry is hard for me, too. I have really found that being mindful in the moment helps...Letting go of what I should or want to be doing, and being with Lauren. (Who is 2). As for cleaning up toys, I won't about it so. Lauren only occasionally cleans up, sometimes even getting upset if I clean up...I talked to my friend who is UP and a former Montessori teacher and she said at this stage, if the child wants mess it is okay, and cleaning is more about us modeling then the young child doing. Hope that helps, gave me some relief.


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## thelocknestmother

As for those with bathtime issues (like us)...I try all my tricks for getting in, but if they don't work, I don't bother, she will survive not being clean for one more day. But some tricks, special bubbles, recently I took an almost empty dish soap (natural) squeeze bottle and filled it with water to make a bubbly squirt bottle, other times we have tea time in the tub, but usually what works the best is not even saying "time for a bath" but rather starting the water, and then hearing the water is a cue for her, she will come in curious about what is going on, and saying "oh, tubby time?" But there are many many days when she doesn't have one either.


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## Labbemama

Do you all have any pro-UP book recommendations that helped you? In particular I'm parenting preteens and teens.


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## mckennasmomma

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Labbemama* 
Do you all have any pro-UP book recommendations that helped you? In particular I'm parenting preteens and teens.

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves

(ETA: sorry for the double post)


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## Paeta16

I haven't kept up-to-date with this thread so forgive me if this has been discussed already and feel free to point me in the direction of that discussion.

Today my DD (2 y. 8 mo.) threw the most massive (overtired) tantrum at the dentist office while we were waiting for my DH to finish with his appt. She deliberately hit me and when I held her hand and said "we don't hit people.It hurts. Please DO NOT hit mommmy!!" she looked me in the eye and slapped me in the face







That was a first for me. I reverted back to "gentle touches" and tried to calm her down with a soothing voice, etc.

Anyway, eventually she calmed down but how do you deal with hitting and tantruming while out in public? I acknowledged (to her) that I know it is hard to contain ourselves when we are frustrated.

Overall, I guess I feel like I handled things pretty gently and it was okay but not great.

Any advice here? Thx.


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## mckennasmomma

sounds to me like you did handle it well. my only advice would be that when you are out in public (or at home for that matter) focus in with lazer beam focus on your child to figure out what she needs in that moment. forget that anyone is there; it is not them that you care about, or what they think that matters.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Labbemama* 
Do you all have any pro-UP book recommendations that helped you? In particular I'm parenting preteens and teens.

Connection Parenting - Pam Leo.


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## mamaluvs

I too currently reading Kohn's book and it really is resonating in my heart. My DD is only recently challenging us with her behavior (she turned 2 in Sept and gained a baby brother that month, so DH and I are not surprised by our sudden conflicts) and it just wasn't feeling right/good to use timeouts, threats, etc. I have doubts about UP though. Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no". I also feel like I could easily lose my sense of identity with this approach-I have a history of agreeing to other people's choices (even simple things like what movie to see, what restaurant to see) even if it isn't really what I want. I've always figured it is the nice thing to do and probably a better choice than my own. But over the years I've realized that I make good decisions too and I deserve to get my own way sometimes. It is still hard to voice my opinions in these situations though but I like that I am learning to do this. I feel like I could have a really hard time balancing the UP approach and meeting at least some of my own needs.
I'd really love to hear some feedback about this.

Also, does UP get easier to use as children get older? I am wondering this because it seems that the majority of "issues" on this thread are with toddlers. I'd like to think that by using the UP approach now, we will head off some future problems or at least have a much stronger foundation from which to base our solutions when we encounter problems.


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## mamaluvs

Has anyone read Jane Nelsen's Postive Discipline books? It seems like she has a similar approach to UP and I'm looking for some follow-up reading to do. I already have Raising Our Children, Raising Our Selves and will be starting that shortly.


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaluvs* 
I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control *because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".* I also feel like I could easily lose my sense of identity with this approach-I have a history of agreeing to other people's choices (even simple things like what movie to see, what restaurant to see) even if it isn't really what I want. I've always figured it is the nice thing to do and probably a better choice than my own. But over the years I've realized that I make good decisions too and I deserve to get my own way sometimes. It is still hard to voice my opinions in these situations though but I like that I am learning to do this. I feel like I could have a really hard time balancing the UP approach and meeting at least some of my own needs.
I'd really love to hear some feedback about this.

.

Mamaluvs, Welcome!!

above I bolded the part about not having a really good reason to say No. If you don't have a really good reason, then is there anything wrong with not saying "no"? I think one of the beautiful things about UP is that it gives us a chance to look carefully at WHY we are saying "no" or giving instructions to our children. Is it because they truly need to stop doing something (therefore, you have a good reason to say no), or is it because *society* tells us we should be telling them what to do? Do they need us to direct their actions, or have we been raised to think that if we don't, they will walk all over us? I understand your fears of not getting your needs met, especially if you have historically felt that you were not able to assert yourself. I think you will find Raising Our Children really addresses the idea of stopping, looking inside yourself to discover why you are reacting/feeling the way you are, and then moving forward with an approach that neither takes power away from the child nor leaves you feeling like your opinion does not count. ROC also gives very practical examples of how this philosophy works with children of all ages.


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaluvs* 
I too currently reading Kohn's book and it really is resonating in my heart. ... I have doubts about UP though. Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".

I highly recommend you next read "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" and "Nurture Shock". Kohn's book is all about philosophy IMO, and he doesn't really give you any practical pointers on how to apply it. ROC is very practical, and she gives not only great tools for helping you figure out what your parenting fears and reservations are (like your above-mentioned fear that your daughter will be in control) but also lots of examples of how this kind of parenting looks in action.

"Nurture Shock" will then be a good reinforcement of everything. It gives a solid, in-depth analysis of the science behind UP-like parenting choices, and will convince you beyond a doubt that this is the right way to go!

My son is 23 months, and we've been using a UP approach for most of his life. It really works for us, and I am confident that I am giving my son the best emotional foundation I can for a happy and fulfilling life. Good luck!


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## thelocknestmother

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Paeta16* 
Today my DD (2 y. 8 mo.) threw the most massive (overtired) tantrum at the dentist office while we were waiting for my DH to finish with his appt. She deliberately hit me and when I held her hand and said "we don't hit people.It hurts. Please DO NOT hit mommmy!!" she looked me in the eye and slapped me in the face







That was a first for me. I reverted back to "gentle touches" and tried to calm her down with a soothing voice, etc.

Anyway, eventually she calmed down but how do you deal with hitting and tantruming while out in public? I acknowledged (to her) that I know it is hard to contain ourselves when we are frustrated.

Overall, I guess I feel like I handled things pretty gently and it was okay but not great.

Any advice here? Thx.

Sounds like you handled it well. I try to remember to handle issues the same in public as I would in private. As for hitting you...DD (2.5 years) if she is in an emotional mode where she will hit, if I pull her in I will likely get hit again in the face...Since her emotional state doesn't change that quickly...what I am saying I guess, is that I am not surprised that she did, it wasn't her being bad, but still trying to figure out her emotion. When Lauren does that, I say "that hurts mommy" "please touch mommy gentle". and say like you did, "it seems you are frustrated"...and then try to figure out the issue behind the hitting. Just like you did.


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## thelocknestmother

Mamaluvs...I have a toddler, too...And I struggle with balancing the concepts of respecting the child's developmental age but also, using reason. I guess with a two-year-old, I use reason with myself more...i.e., am I being reasonable? what do I really need in this moment? what does DD really need in this moment? And I use reallllly simple explanation. Mmmm...I have more thoughts on this, but having a hard time typing it...will try to come back later. On to your second issue...I, too worry about losing self because I can be an over-giver. mckennasmomma made some good points, that I would second, as did jennchsm, even though I have yet to read ROC (which I need to). One other thing I have to add though, is that another principle of UP is being authentic...Which means sometimes you do have needs, which might oppose the child's, just be careful if it is really a need. But children need to know that we have needs and too, that we aren't perfect. Two examples from my own life. I am pregnant, last month DD (2.5 years old and 30 pounds) had horrible sleep and wanted me to nurse her to sleep in cradle-hold while walking for 1 hour or more, at first I was doing it because she seemed to need it, then my friend (who does UP) told me that it wasn't good for me or the baby (health-wise) and that Lauren would have to accept being in the rocking chair. I was soooo giving to the point of really exhausting myself, I finally said no but said we could rock, and we still have a good relationship.
Second, during this time period, I had a particularly grumpy morning. Keeping honesty and authenticity in mind, I told Lauren that "mommy is grumpy today". Which felt so strange, because I grew up in a family that hid emotions "everything is fine!" and where parents are perfect (one of many reasons I need to read ROC). But I knew I had to tell her, because my patience was not going to be what it needed to be that day. I apologized whenever I had a interaction I did not like that day. So anyways, we do not have to compromise our true real needs, not be perfect to do UP. Does that make sense??? (I hate typing this stuff out).


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## coffeegirl

Subbing!


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## mckennasmomma

My daughter (17 months) seems to have moved in to the "I can do it myself!" phase. Although in many ways I love it, there are some things that I just can't have her doing by herself, but she really gets upset when we try to help her with it. For example, she really wants to empty out her little potty in to the toilet herself. You can imagine how tidily a 17 month old can accomplish that task! Having pee spilled all over the place is just really not so great, you know? There are other things too, that are either too messy or too dangerous for her to do without help. So far it seems like if I find her a good substitute (today for example, she wanted to use the big shovel I was using to shovel snow, so I found her a different "tool" so she could do her own shoveling) it sometimes works fine, but for the things that she really knows about (the frequent things, like the potty) substituting isn't going to fly. Any suggestions for how to navigate this stage?


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## Harmony08

No, Mckennasmomma, I don't have suggestions unfortunately. My son is almost 16 months and we are sort of in the same predicament. He wants to do things for himself that he cannot do like put his boots on, put his diaper on etc. He gets so frustrated that he can't do these things. It sort of breaks my heart but I know it is just life. We also have things like your potty example where I'm just not down with him throwing the glass, diving headfirst off the couch. He just gets frustrated and has his angry outbursts. This seems to be happening a lot. I also don't understand what he wants a lot of the time. This morning while we were eating breakfast he got all worked up and was pointing and yelling and was so upset. It turned out what he wanted was for me to eat his yogurt with my spoon which I had done once before being all silly. Apparently he loved it.

If you care what my opinion is I think you sounds like you're doing everything you can do. I used to work with 2 year olds and I was often very discouraged because it was SO hard and I always felt like there must be something else I could be doing to make it better. After a lot of research, talking with others, and some experience, I sort of realized that sometimes they just have to get frustrated, have tantrums, etc. So now with my son, I do my very best and then let it go. My understanding from UP is that we don't have to eliminate all struggles but honor their feelings about them. When he loses it over the boots I don't say "It is not a big deal, for crying out loud." I say "You want to put your boots on. You don't want help. You're yeling becuase the boots won't go on" etc . Okay I'm getting a little longwinded here. sheeesh. I just feel ya.

Toddlers! Just this morning I had to keep saying to myself "I am coming to him from a place of peace and compassion" over and over.


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## mckennasmomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Harmony08* 
After a lot of research, talking with others, and some experience, I sort of realized that sometimes they just have to get frustrated, have tantrums, etc. So now with my son, I do my very best and then let it go. My understanding from UP is that we don't have to eliminate all struggles but honor their feelings about them. When he loses it over the boots I don't say "It is not a big deal, for crying out loud." I say "You want to put your boots on. You don't want help. You're yeling becuase the boots won't go on" etc . Okay I'm getting a little longwinded here. sheeesh. I just feel ya.

Toddlers! Just this morning I had to keep saying to myself "I am coming to him from a place of peace and compassion" over and over.

Ah, right, thanks for the reminders about not necessarily eliminating all struggles but just honoring their feelings instead.

I actually really love the toddler stage...I guess there are just "parts" of it that are challenging to me.


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## francesruben

I'm new to this thread, loved _UP_ and _Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves_ but really struggle with implementing it. Sometimes I really feel like I'm getting nowhere with DD (3.5) who is constantly hitting, pushing, grabbing DS (1.5). I feel like a broken record.. does she need something he has?.... could she swap something with him instead of grabbing it?...is he annoying her? I feel like every time I turn my back there's another altercation. Last week she bit him twice for no apparent reason other than being overtired. Sometimes I feel that by validating her feelings of frustration with her brother I'm unfairly giving attention to the aggressor. It's very difficult for me to keep them apart- DS is like a little magnet.

As the day progresses I seem to get more frustrated and usually end up a very un UP mama. How do you keep going with UP when your kids are really difficult? I'm trying to keep the long term in mind but am I missing something else? Any ideas how I can approach this situation?


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Harmony08* 
After a lot of research, talking with others, and some experience, I sort of realized that sometimes they just have to get frustrated, have tantrums, etc. ... My understanding from UP is that we don't have to eliminate all struggles but honor their feelings about them.

Yes, this. My son just turned 2, and I feel like I'm finally at a place where I can see his tantrums for what they are, a normal part of his emotional development. If I follow Naomi Aldort's advice (the SALVE method) to first Stop myself from responding and let go of my initial reaction, and then turn my Attention to my son and try to see things from his point of view, it really, really helps. Perhaps half the time, the tantrum is over something different than what I would have initially thought, and so my initial reaction ould have only made the situation worse.

I come from a family of "fixers", people who hate to see other folks upset, and who do everything they can to "fix" it. What that really means is that as a child I was immediately distracted from anything that upset or frustrated me, and so I unfortunately earned that it's not okay to struggle with something difficult, nor is it okay to show your true emotions. I was told, "It's okay" when it wasn't, and "You're all right" when I wasn't. To this day, I cannot turn to my own mother when I have a problem I need to vent about. She wants to "fix" it rather than listen to what I'm really saying, and it's incredibly frustrating.

I have had to really work on myself in the last year to avoid doing that to my son, but the results have been good. He is able to work through his own frustrations in ways that I would not have thought possible, all because I sit back and let him. I stay close and tell him I will help him if he asks me to, and sometimes he will look up at me and say, "Mommy help?", but most of the time he will ignore me and plow on through until he makes it work on his own. What a great skill he is learning for life!

I think that is something UP has taught me, and it's made me a better parent, friend, and partner.


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## Harmony08

So I am finallly reading Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves. I love this SALVE method. I have been using it with my husband


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## Harmony08

Hello Everyone,

Talk to me about how you share all of this with your DP. Does he get it like you do? Is he on board? etc.

I am reading ROC and it is just really opening up so much to me. It really is much more helpful in a practical sense than UP. Anyway, DH and I had a long discussion about it. We talked about our parents and had so aha moments and what not. We talked about what happens when you punish, criticize, ignore, threaten, demean, etc a child who shows strong emotion...and you all know what happens so I'll skip the whole explanantion because nak. Anyway, later that night Dh was holding ds back from the bookshelf so ds bit his arm and what does dh do??? He says "Hey, Knock it off"







and so then he doesn't see how it has anything to do with what we were talking about.


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## boheime

I know, personally, I always feel as if I am a better parent if I am actively striving to imporving myself - by reading books, thinking, discussing with other parents who have similar beliefs, etc. Would anyone be interested in a UP/CL blog carnival type event so that we could share our thoughts in another format?


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## mamaofthree

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L'lee* 
I'm interested, too! I really enjoyed this book and found that it really spoke to me and justified a lot of my feelings about parenting.

Here is some more info that I put together when we had a discussion in my local natural families group:

ok i know this is from last year... but can i say WOW! that was amazing and i printed it out to share with dh. thank you so much!


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## mamaluvs

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boheime* 
I know, personally, I always feel as if I am a better parent if I am actively striving to imporving myself - by reading books, thinking, discussing with other parents who have similar beliefs, etc. Would anyone be interested in a UP/CL blog carnival type event so that we could share our thoughts in another format?

Yes, I'd be interested. I definitely need to hash out some thoughts/ideas about this stuff with other people. I have no idea what a carnival type event is though!


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## boheime

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaluvs* 
Yes, I'd be interested. I definitely need to hash out some thoughts/ideas about this stuff with other people. I have no idea what a carnival type event is though!

I'd have to check into exactly how to do it, but there would be a link to everyone's blogs on a specific day(s). We could have specific topics or just consensual living in general.

Where we would tell people on Mothering about it? I'm sure there are rules about where we could post about that type of thing.


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## Harmony08

bump


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## OGirlieMama

OK, I need some ideas about hitting. My daughters (4 years old, twins) get pretty physical with each other in general, and they hit or bite each other fairly often. But in the past month or two, one of them has really taken off with the hitting. She hits me constantly. I mean, multiple times per day, and for almost any perceived offense - saying no to a request for something, pulling her off of her sister (who she's hitting), and just now because I tickled her when she was apparently not interested.

It's really getting bad. And hard to control my own reaction. There are times I've just given in to my feelings and yelled, carried her up the stairs to her bed or mine and left her there (hysterically crying), telling her to come back down when she's not going to hit. There are times I've just broken down and cried, because I'm so frustrated and sad about it. Actually, those times, she's come over and apologized of her own accord and tried to kiss where she hit me. But I can't be bursting into tears all day long, ya know?

I feel like I've completely lost touch with how to respond to this kind of behavior. I can accept a lot from them, but the hitting just makes me crazy. And it hurts. I get pinched and bitten sometimes, too, but mostly it's just that instant slap the second she starts to get worked up and angry.

FWIW to the conversation, she is a terrible sleeper (both are) and we are doing a sleep study at the end of this week to find out if they are having apnea. I'm pretty convinced that a lot of the short temper is related to missing sleep, mostly because I know mine is.









We made a list a few months ago of a whole bunch of things you can do when you're angry that don't involve hitting. They offered ideas and so did I, and we wrote it in pretty colors and put it on the fridge. It didn't help one bit. Whenever I try to stop her and say "let's look at the list! remember the list!" or suggest an item on the list, it falls on utterly deaf ears. I think she's too out of control in that moment to hear me - it's such a knee-jerk reaction at this point.

So can anyone help me with how to respond when she hits me? Blowing up is clearly wrong, crying feels manipulative (except for when it's utterly genuine and I can't stop myself, and even then I don't want to be that girl). Once or twice I've managed to go playful on her when I see she's getting worked up, and said silly things like "Don't hit, don't spit, don't pit! Don't blit!" and that's gotten everyone saying nonsense words and laughing. But usually it's just too fast to even get a handle on.


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## hoosgirl

Hi, I just found this thread ... I am so excited. I'm going to go to the front and read it from the beginning, but just wanted to say how thrilled I am to find other parents talking about this. I just finished this book over the weekend and it really made me think!

I know that one of the things the author says is that part of it is just starting to question yourself and what you do, but I really want to internalize the concepts and put them into practice - and this is SO far from parenting styles that everyone I know uses that I don't know anyone IRL to talk it over with.

Here I thought that the beneficial thing to do with my DS was to "good job" everything and to say "if you spill that water, I will take it away ... OK, you spilled it, now it is gone". I loved how he showed me that I wasn't really setting up choices and that praising is not a good thing for him, that shifting the emphasis from "me" to "others" is the way to really encourage moral growth. I also find that already I'm a more peaceful parent by being able to just assume the good in my child rather than having to think that he's manipulating, "bad", etc.

(and somehow I think this will spill over into adult relationships as well!)

Anyway, enough rambling - just wanted to share my excitement and now I really will go and read the rest of the thread so I can actually participate


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## simplymother

Hi, I haven't been here in quite a long time, but I used to be a regular of the GD forum when my first child was just getting to the age when you start thinking about discipline. (I had a different username tho.) Anyway, that's when I read Kids Are Worth It and then UP (and then about 30 million other parenting books but UP is what started it all for me!)

There wasn't an Unconditional Parenting Support Thread back then (the book was still relatively new) but I think this is awesome!

I was wondering, did any of you ever do the blog carnival thing? I participated in an unschooling one a few months ago and it was great. I'd love to read some of your blogs if you did/do one for UP.


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## mckennasmomma

OGirlieMama: hitting is such a tough thing to cope with. Recently it was a hot topic of conversation on Scott Noelle's Enjoy Parenting forums (Scott is the author of the Daily Groove, you can sign up for his PATH program to read the forums.)

I have not experienced hitting (yet?) so take this with a grain of salt. But here is what I *think* I would hopefully do:
-begin by centering myself. Make sure I am in a loving and peaceful place before proceeding.
-make sure everyone is safe. If that means lovingly but physically restraining, then that is what needs to be done.
-remain centered. See if my centered-ness would help bring my child back in to her own center.
-Try to figure out what the "need" is behind the behavior. Remember that the behavior is neither bad nor good, it just IS, without judgment. From that place, what need is she trying to express?

Hopefully from there you and she will find a way together to move forward. She may need more sleep (like you suggested), food, more connection, more space, more empowerment, more of a sense that you and she are centered, more.... you get the idea!

Please keep us posted on how it is going!


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## mamaUK

Quote:
Originally Posted by *apple_juice* 
I find I am so much more relaxed when I don't sweat the small stuff and try to look trhough his eyes and meet his needs.



> This really spoke to me. Thank you.


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## LCBMAX

I just want to say that anything I ever thought or said earlier in this thread was before I had a 2.75 year old! Things are different now and I am so clueless. Would love to hear more from mamas with older, more challenging kids. I'm too frustrated to even try to put a post together myself at the moment, just thrilled that son and husband left the house and I can restart my own morning.


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## Devaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LCBMAX*
> 
> I just want to say that anything I ever thought or said earlier in this thread was before I had a 2.75 year old! Things are different now and I am so clueless. Would love to hear more from mamas with older, more challenging kids. I'm too frustrated to even try to put a post together myself at the moment, just thrilled that son and husband left the house and I can restart my own morning.


 Same here. I was even a little smug as in 'I dont need to do time outs, my son and I have this great communication and relationship etc' until just before he turned 3. Then everything went up a level. I feel at a loss too! Some days it's absolutely fine, like when we are out and about doing stuff, but at home...it's hard work, and lots of things have become a battle, like getting dressed etc. I find myself sometimes having to physically force him to get dressed b/c there is a non-negotiable time I have to be out the door, e.g. if I'm not on time I will miss a train and have to fork out lots of money to get another ticket, etc.... it's frustrating and I feel like I'm not being the best parent I can be.

Hoosgirl, you mentioned the importance of trying to see the good in your child and how that prevents problems cropping up in your approach as a parent. I think this is waht I'm fundamentally struggling with right now as DS often appears to me to be bossy, demanding etc, and I need to find better words and self talk to use in my head! I was brought up in the typical way of, any backtalk would get a smack, so it triggers really old beliefs about how children 'should be' ...it's like I find myself thinking, God, I wouuld NEVER have been allowed to speak to my parents like that/ argue with them like that/ etc. The other day I even found myself saying, when he was being really pedantic and argumentative about something food-related (food is a big problem latelY): "Look, do you realise I am actually the grown up here? And I have said no!" Sigh.... SO not UP!!!


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## mckennasmomma

I learned about The Daily Groove/Scott Noelle from this thread, and eventually went on to join his parenting program as well as periodically get phone coaching from him. (As a side note, I highly recommend him! He and his forums have helped me in countless ways.)

In one phone consult, we talked about a couple things that Devaya brought up. I'll try to be concise here...so hard to talk about this stuff briefly though.

1-Times when I feel dd is being bossy to me: he reminded me to not take this personally. She is not trying to control me. It is simply a trigger from my past (just like you said Devaya) that brings up feelings in *me*. Find what is behind the message: she is saying NO to something, so what is she saying YES to? (Truthfully, changing your reactions is a big part of Scott's work.)

2-getting dressed/out the door: at first I was worried about using this technique because it sounded manipulative to me, but it has turned out to be really effective in empowering her to make decisions for herself, which of course is not manipulative! Basically, anytime she doesn't want to get ready to go somewhere (and I'm sure you start the getting ready process with gobs of extra time so you are not under time pressure), I get all her clothes ready and by the door, then I say to her, "I am going to xxx. I really hope you will come with me, but it is your decision to make." Then I start to leave. The first few times I got most of the way out the door before she decided to come with me. Now it happens much more easily. I would suggest doing this first when getting somewhere is not vital, so you can see how it goes. It is important to do this with your whole heart believing that she truly has the power to make her own decisions, rather than trying to "bluff" her. Of course you won't be leaving her at home alone, but helping her get to the point where she sees that she is empowered in the decision process is a good thing.

HTH!


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## mamazee

If you desperately need to go someplace, the I don't think dressing your child to get there is anti-UP, unless you're punishing over it or something. But what I do is to try to make dd have the ability to help decide how we handle things. "I really need to go to the grocery store. You don't want to get dressed yet. We have to get there and back before the baby goes down for her nap. How can we solve this?" Sometimes she'll get dressed, sometimes she'll say she wants to finish one more thing and then she'll get dressed, but explaining to her where I'm coming from makes a huge difference to my dd anyway. Though personality makes a big difference in how kids react to things. But my dd likes to think of herself as a problem solver, so if I present her with a problem she likes to be the one to find a solution.


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## Devaya

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. We are much more harmonious today since there were no particular times we had to go anywhere. In fact really e njoying my son's company. Sigh...if only life could be arranged to not be so time-dependent! McKennasmomma, I love Scott Noelle too, money permitting I would do his coaching programme too (at the moment just get the 'daily groove' emails). I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing the almost-walking-out-the-door thing, b/c I've tried similar things when really desperate and he does respond like a shot, but I fear the effect would wear off and leave me back to square one. To me it feels too much like those moms in the park you see saying 'Right that's it, Im going, bye!' and walking away to a wailing child. Thanks for the reminder to not take the bossiness personally 

ANd yes, remembering to use problem solving language is really helpful, mamazee. I have found that to be successful sometimes but seem to forget to use it in rushed situations!


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## mckennasmomma

I understand how at first the "walking out the door" thing sounds like like "those moms in the park you see saying 'Right that's it, Im going, bye!' and walking away to a wailing child." I was afraid of that too. But I think the difference lies in your motivation and what is in your heart. I think that in the "moms at the park" example they really are a) trying to be manipulative of the behavior, and b) are doing it in a state of irritation. When I do it with my daughter, I make sure that I am centered, not in a state of irritation, and am being honest with my intention that I truly want her to be making the choice to come with me, because in the end that is what *feels good* to her. Rather than the effect wearing off, we are now at a point where I actually don't have to do that anymore. Now all I have to do (if she seems to be reluctant to get ready to go) is say, "Well, I'm going to move all your clothes to the door. I really hope you'll decide to come with me, and I'll meet you at the door when you are ready." She usually thinks about it for a moment or two, then comes to the door quite happily wanting to go with me.

Any UP suggestions for a toddler who still wakes many times a night, and is extremely demanding about nursing at those times? I so badly want her to naturally reach sleep maturation, and I'm not only not into night weaning but I also don't believe it would really work for her. Ideally we would just have a natural progression, of reducing wakings, gently going back to sleep with nursing, until she was just doing it on her own. I thought that would happen after her last 2-year molar came in, but it is in and she still wakes 3-10 x per night, and like I said is really demanding with the nursing back to sleep.


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## mckennasmomma

This morning, a simple thing happened that to me is similar in nature to the philosophy behind the "I'm hoping you'll come with me/ empowered to make their own decisions" idea. DD was eating breakfast and I put her vitamin down just like I do every day. She loves her vitamins...but today she said she didn' want to eat it. I left it there for a while, then eventually said, Ok, I'll just put it away if you don't want it (and I meant this honestly...I really don't care that much if she doesn't have it). But as soon as she saw that I was willing to put it away, she changed her mind and said she wanted it. The two ideas are similar because when I can truly let go of my "need" for her to do something (anything: brush teeth, get dressed, eat vitamin, whatever) it opens the door for her to truly choose to do it. So, when "needing" to leave the house, I shift internally from needing her to comply to opening the door for her to choose to come with me.

Does that make better sense?


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## mama amie

Hello! I know there are a few names on this thread that I recognize from more current ones. Anyone interested in updating experiences as your children have gotten older and the issues have evolved? I'm just now working to implement UP and CPS into the parenting of my 5 and 2 year old spirited kids. They can really be a handful, but I'm realizing the part that I have played in it. H and I are also pretty spirited, and have struggled over time to effectively parent in a GD way. I haven't gotten H to read or research any of this yet, but plan to introduce it as I grow more familiar and practice myself.

I started a thread similar to this with no replies yet. Feel free to chime in there- especially if you implemented UP after a few years or more.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1387984/unconditional-parenting#post_17426725


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## A&A

There is also a UP FB page.


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## mama amie

Thanks, A. Glad you found this. Unfortunately, I quit FB and don't plan to go back. I will try the Scott Noelle forum mentioned up thread.


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## A&A

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Amie*
> 
> Thanks, A. Glad you found this. Unfortunately, I quit FB and don't plan to go back. I will try the Scott Noelle forum mentioned up thread.


Yeah, I understand about FB.


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## mckennasmomma

I was on the Enjoy Parenting (Scott Noelle) forum for several years, and it was hugely helpful to me. I'll take a look at the thread you started as well.


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## filamentary

i am only halfway through this thread so far, planning to read it all the way through, and i also noticed Mama Amie linked to another (similar, but more recent?) thread, so i'll be checking that one out, too. just wanted to subscribe to the thread for now. =)


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## filamentary

> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> He's complaining all the time about how he can't get a job. However, he walks into places to inquire about jobs with his blue/green mohawk standing at least 6 inches up from his head. Um, yeah, maybe that's why people don't hire him. Personally, I don't think that should matter but I know that other people do. He knows this so what does he do? He decides to get a tattoo that essentially covers his entire forearm. I don't have anything against tattoos. My dh and I both have them. I just don't think it's such a great idea for him to put it in such a conspicuous place. He agrees but says that's where it looks good so he's going to do it.


okay, i know this post is already a few years old, so your 18yo is already early 20s. and although i'm 32 (this month), it still feels like i've only just crossed the threshold into my 30s, and i got (or at least started) most of my tattoos between 18 and mid-20s. so i feel like i can probably relate to your son. i not only have a tattoo on my forearm, i have two stars next to my eye, and i still have my lip pierced from ~10 yrs ago (22) when my wife and i got together and she asked me to pierce it b/c she thought it would be cute. when i was a bit younger, i found myself feeling a little (oh, i dunno, pissy?, indignant?) with how i thought the world perceived me. then i went back to school at 24, and since the only people i interacted with were fellow students and professors, my attitude changed, b/c it became apparent that "how the world perceives me" was, actually, as a bright, motivated, enthusiastic, likable person. but it wasn't until i was convinced by the academic context that this was how people saw me that it seemed to suddenly be true of how people perceived me everywhere i went. i think part of that was that my own expectations and confidence also helped people newly meeting me know how to react to me: in a positive way! it was sorta catch-22, unfortunately.

and with a little hindsight i think i can also say that i had a few unrealistic expectations, emotionally (i knew certain places wouldn't hire me, but then i'd feel a sense of rejection, even though i didn't bother to apply, because the employment landscape was more limited for me than for others my age). i was lucky, though, to have a few people who threw some good advice at me, some of it in an odd way. one that stuck with me though, was a good friend of mine, who was 14 yrs older than me, she sent me an email in response to a mopey one i wrote her, and she said the following: i know you are not really disappointed not to get those jobs, so pick yourself up and quit whining and be honest with yourself. i want you to do this writing assignment: "why am i choosing not to get those jobs / earn that money?". it wasn't exactly UP, but she wasn't my parent, and it did force me to think about how i was, in fact, as an autonomous individual, choosing the circumstances before me, b/c i certainly couldn't attribute my lot to lack of skill, personality deficits, inability to think outside the box, or anything like that. so i'm not suggesting this necessarily from parent to child, but i think it is informative and helpful when you think about what i actually got out of it. and i think i can convert the message into one more in line with UP, in the following way (and, yes, i know it's possibly a bit late for this advice, but)...

if anyone has a kid with the same thing going on, perhaps ask them: are you disappointed that you can't get that job at [...]? or are you disappointed that the kind of world you want to live in is one that takes more work, more motivation, etc., than what other people have to put forth? are you willing to shoulder that disappointment and struggle for your ideals? are you the kind of person who wants to make the world a different, a better place? can you get okay with the fact that this path isn't often easy? can you overcome the temporary moments of exhaustion and feeling lost, because the path you are blazing doesn't have a map to follow, or any surefire way of checking your progress? can you accept that money, while a necessary component for survival, isn't the primary measure of success for the path you have chosen? are your expectations (and resulting disappointments) properly matched to your efforts and goals? what kind of compromises are acceptable to you, and which must you rule out? how does that change the landscape of what you might or might not consider a disappointment? how often do you need to reassess the answers you're giving to these questions right now? if you're not sure, are you willing to frequently check back in with yourself, to re-calibrate, to make sure you're doing what you really intend? if this seems like a lot of work, can you remember what it is that really drives and motivates you? can you figure out a way to re-infuse yourself with that drive and inspiration? are you pushing yourself too hard? not hard enough? can you figure out what some reasonable parameters are for knowing when you're doing which, and when you're finding the proper balance? ... and maybe some specific, practical ones, like, is it possible you only want the kind of job where tattoos don't matter? can you remember to remind yourself of that when you get disappointed at the consequences of that choice?

sure, an 18yo makes some decisions that are lacking in foresight, but they have definitely mastered the concepts of cause and effect, decisions and consequences. and if asked to think them through, they will likely find a way for their decisions to be consistent with their desires, and get rid of the contradictions that seem to drive us crazy about what they're doing, and i don't think the conclusion has to be effortless or pain-free (or like what we would choose / how we would answer) for us to accept and support it. in this way, it's a lot like how you support the little one navigating the world's difficulties and constraints. it's different, however, in that the young adult is way more emotionally mature and can pick up on just the tiniest hints of judgment and disapproval. and i believe they still need your wholehearted support just as much as the little ones. so i think with older kids, you have to be more deliberate in sitting yourself down and letting go of your judgments before you try to be supportive of them, or they're going to notice it. maybe try to answer these kinds of questions through your kid's eyes, as best you can, as you think you know them? maybe you'll find yourself more on their page before you even try to have a conversation intended to help them out with the difficulties of navigating the world as a (hopefully) cooler and awesomer person than the world is necessarily ready for.

and the reality of it is that there are very few real careers out there that care about tattoos/piercings/bright hair colors anymore. you will even find successful, out-of-the-closet lesbian lawyers sporting blue dreadlocks in conservative places like salt lake city (this is a real example), and i know tattooed and pierced folks at NPR & disney. tech companies have led the charge at not caring at all about these things, so there are a bazillion options in tech fields. and academia doesn't care either. and i find myself more and more places where a company i was almost certain used to not allow visible tattoos or piercings obviously now does, based upon the visible arm tattoos and facial piercings on one or more of their employees. it's really a matter of where one wants to end up. and in a pinch, you can usually cover up forearm tattoos by wearing long sleeves (with a skin-color band over the tattoo so it doesn't show through), if you absolutely must take a job at a place that doesn't allow visible tattoos.

i hope this doesn't feel too far off-topic, but i do actually see it as being very related to UP b/c this seems like a time when a parent could start letting judgment and conditionality creep into the parent-child relationship, and it seems in a lot of ways just as important as ever to not let it. my mom didn't UP us, but she did a few things i will forever condone: (1) she never, ever (not at any age) tried to limit who we chose as friends, telling us that we need to use our own good judgment to know who it's appropriate to spend time around (although honestly i think she might have chosen to intervene if we'd gone down some really unwise paths, but that never came up, so i can't be sure), and (2) she always let us choose what to be motivated by, and how much to let it motivate us, and to be excited in our own ways about what those things were, and she was always so willing to listen, ask for more details, ask questions, listen some more, to whatever we were doing & going through (although we did go through phases where we didn't want to share with mom). to this day, i still love talking to my mom (on the other side of the country) on a weekly basis, and she still loves to hear me tell her stories, and always has time for me, and it's such a warm spot in my heart, and if she judged me or tried to steer me away from what i'm doing, instead of just being a friend and listening, i might choose to contact her less frequently. that's not to say that we always have the same perspective on things, but she's one of those people i can honestly just talk about things with, and don't feel negative energy attached to where our viewpoints might differ, and she has this awesome tendency to try to point out the similarities in what we do/think that might at first seem so different, as opposed to wedging our differences between us. i don't think this would feel so amazing to me if she'd just suddenly begun this when i was a mature adult. it's something she's been fairly consistent about, so it's something i feel very secure in knowing i can rely on. and in fact, sometimes i feel guilty for not being a more communicative child, b/c the more i mature, the more i realize she's always been there for me (and now i worry about her advancing age and declining health, and whether i got the most and best out of the limited years we have on earth together!).

and recently she said something that made me absolutely giddy, when she was talking about how you communicate with a toddler. it was in the context of criticizing how someone we know spends time with their toddler (one of these young moms who spends all her time with eyes glued to her mobile phone, texting and playing games, but seemingly resentful of the obligation of parenting even though she's chosen to be a SAHM), and my mom said, "being physically present with them isn't enough. you have to make eye contact, and they need to know that what they are telling you about really matters, that you are really interested. and the questions you ask them, how detailed and interested the follow-up questions are, make it so clear how well you are listening. kids are smarter than they seem. they really pick up on that stuff." so, while my mom did utilize spanking and yelling, and those things i'm against, i realize she really understood the communication thing, and took it seriously from a very early age, and i'm so grateful for it. it also made me realize that a lot of people figure out these things about how to parent well even without reading these books (my mom never read kohn or aldort), if they are really trying to be good people to their little ones, and really attentive and loving and caring. and this gives me reassurance that i will probably find a good path through the territory not covered in these books, if i really make my relationship and communication and empathy with the kiddo a high priority.

ok, this got really long... whoa! hope i said something helpful to someone out there!


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