# Just watched SICKO - where's the revolution?



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

I just watched Sicko and am still processing it. I've been behind Universal Healthcare for years but now I really want to get active. What organizations are supporting this cause? What can we do?


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

It depends on what you mean by "universal." Our governor wants to force the uninsured to buy insurance and has the gall to call it "health care for all!" They just did this in Massachusetts, I believe.

Assuming you mean single-payer health care, efforts for that seem to be state-by-state. Tracking down something in your state will involve some resourceful Googling. But definitely get on this! We all should. Here's a national effort, although I'm not a doctor: http://www.pnhp.org/

I haven't seen Sicko yet, but this issue is really important to me.


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Yes, I do mean single payer. So what is the plan in Mass? They demand everyone have insurance Do they regulate what the insurance companies are charging?


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Good question, and I don't have the answer! Given the insurance industry's strong hand in lobbying for this measure, I sincerely doubt it.

NPR has pretty decent coverage of what's going on: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9209440

My favorite part: "In May, the state will begin *marketing seven new state-approved private insurance plans* for people making more than 300 percent of the poverty line." [Emphasis my own]. I can just picture bigwigs passing back and forth those big laundry bags with dollar signs painted on them...

The Mass. idea is spreading rapidly to different states, so you'll want to nail down your governor's position on the issue. It's pretty scary, and it makes taking action even more urgent. Mandatory-insurance laws promise to pump even more money into a profit-mongering, ever-failing industry without addressing the root evils of our health care system.









So I take it that Moore doesn't address this seedy trend in health care lawmaking?


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

You do realize that Michael Moore has a terrible tendency to overblow things in his "documentrys" right?
Look at Bowling for Columbine. So many incorrect facts. So many...


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## ~Heyokha~ (Nov 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
I just watched Sicko and am still processing it. I've been behind Universal Healthcare for years but now I really want to get active. What organizations are supporting this cause? What can we do?

I just watched this last night and have been wondering the same thing.........


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

I was reading up on those insurance plans, and honestly that's still a TON out of pocket and really high deductables, for families especially (I saw $10,000 as the family deductable).

I have insurance here, and still I know if anything major happened we'd have a HUGE amount of additional cost (we pay over 7700 a year already for our coverage, DH's employer doesn't apparently like to put much in for families.














.

What is wrong with a plan like what Canada has honestly? You know what's wrong...the insurance lobby doesn't like it because it would put them out of business and they're all about making money!







:


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Right now it's just DH and I and our "insurance" is a high-deductible HSA. For the two of us, our deductible is $5650 a year. For the two of us!

Sadly, getting an independent HSA was cheaper for us than paying for insurance through EITHER of our employers. He works for a small business and I work part-time at a large corp and part-time at a non-profit.

Insurance in the US is a mess, and until we get rid of the insurance lobby, it will continue to be a mess.

What?

We'll never get rid of it??

*calls friend in Canada*

"Get me a job!"


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Hubby seriously wants to move to the UK now. I thought he was kidding, but he keeps bringing it up. I checked in France. Though we'd pay higher taxes, we would come out ahead considering what we pay for healthcare! Of course, hubby's French isn't good, which is why he's pushing for the UK. But I digress.

I can see the bureaucratic nightmare of a universal single-payer system, but I also believe the benefits are worth it. One of the problems I have is that I'm not so big on letting states administer the program. Yeah, I understand the separate powers to feds and state, but I think that's where it becomes a PITA to do something like that here.

You know the biggest problem? Convincing the masses - and how do you do that? My MIL is huge on FoxNEWS. I saw someone there say you have to wait in Quebec for 4 hours in the ER. My MIL (and millions of others) believe this without any proof. I have a million questions immediately. Why pick Quebec? Is it an outliar for the rest of Canada? What's the average wait in, say New Jersey? Without a comparison, the stat is pointless. Plus, is it true? Could this guy point to that study if asked? I doubt it. Still with that rhetoric it's tough to convince people.

My ILs (and really I'm not picking on them, I just think they're a typical example) are upper middle-class. You can scare the bejeezus out of them by suggesting that making good money won't buy them better care. They believe it should. If they can pay for bypass surgery tomorrow, then yes they deserve to get it first. I think those kinds of attitudes (which are all too common), are going to be the toughest to defeat, and the insurance lobby will exploit those fears for all they're worth.


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
My ILs (and really I'm not picking on them, I just think they're a typical example) are upper middle-class. You can scare the bejeezus out of them by suggesting that making good money won't buy them better care. They believe it should. If they can pay for bypass surgery tomorrow, then yes they deserve to get it first. I think those kinds of attitudes (which are all too common), are going to be the toughest to defeat, and the insurance lobby will exploit those fears for all they're worth.

I agree - read this article "I don't want healthcare if just anyone can have it." It would be funnier if I didn't know there are people who feel that way
http://www.theonion.com/content/opin...h_care_if_just

If your ILs would - see if they'll watch SICKO and not waver a little. I think people (myself included) don't realize HOW BAD healthcare in this country has become. If you haven't had a serious illness, you just assume your insurance will cover you.

How difficult is it to become a citizen in the UK or France?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
How difficult is it to become a citizen in the UK or France?

Hubby talked about having them watch _Sicko_ since we'll be there for Thanksgiving.

I don't think (though don't quote me) that you have to be a citizen of France to get the healthcare.

Hubby's grandfather was born in Scotland, so hubby (and by extension me and our kids) is eligible for dual citizenship (we wouldn't give up US status) in the UK and US. It's a matter of documentation, though hubby's GF has been hesitant about providing his birth documentation to hubby's sister who wanted to do the dual citizenship. It's an "I came here so you wouldn't have to live there" thing.


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

DH and I and my mother all watched the movie together and DH and I have seriously discussed moving out of the US and to the UK or even Italy because of the problems here. Problem is being the bottom of the barrel in terms of finances its a far far FAR off dream for us


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
My ILs (and really I'm not picking on them, I just think they're a typical example) are upper middle-class. You can scare the bejeezus out of them by suggesting that making good money won't buy them better care. They believe it should. If they can pay for bypass surgery tomorrow, then yes they deserve to get it first. I think those kinds of attitudes (which are all too common), are going to be the toughest to defeat, and the insurance lobby will exploit those fears for all they're worth.

I see this kind of sentiment in the letters to the editor for our local newspaper all the time. Lately it was in response to the SCHIP program, but they did the same thing when the democrats in my state proposed state-wide healthcare (I think it was a single payer one). What I found most ironic was that they referred to these kinds of things as "entitlement programs" - as if they themselves aren't using as their defense their own feelings of entitlement.

ETA: I've wanted to watch SICKO for quite awhile now, but it'll be awhile...I'm 31 on the list at the library


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

We rented it from Blockbuster and watched it last night. I'd previously been against universal healthcare because of higher taxes, but I think if we take all the money we're spending on the war and spend it on healthcare, we'd all be covered.


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## californiajenn (Mar 7, 2007)

Michael Moore gave permission to download the movie off the internet. He said that if it got more people to discuss the issue, then he was fine with it.

I have a friend from Italy and she is moving her family back next week. She cannot fatham why the American people aren't up in arms regarding the SCHIP veto. She thinks it is way too hard to live in the US unless you are rich.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
Good question, and I don't have the answer! Given the insurance industry's strong hand in lobbying for this measure, I sincerely doubt it.

NPR has pretty decent coverage of what's going on: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9209440

My favorite part: "In May, the state will begin *marketing seven new state-approved private insurance plans* for people making more than 300 percent of the poverty line." [Emphasis my own]. I can just picture bigwigs passing back and forth those big laundry bags with dollar signs painted on them...

The Mass. idea is spreading rapidly to different states, so you'll want to nail down your governor's position on the issue. It's pretty scary, and it makes taking action even more urgent. Mandatory-insurance laws promise to pump even more money into a profit-mongering, ever-failing industry without addressing the root evils of our health care system.









So I take it that Moore doesn't address this seedy trend in health care lawmaking?

I'm interested, and have been for years, in a single-payer universal health care plan.

I know of two moms here on MDC who live in MA and they are certainly not pleased with the mandatory health insurance. I believe one of them told me they pay ~$700 a month for health insurance.

However, I think that is relative to family size and household income.

In your quote, the end of the sentence is "for people making more than 300 percent of the poverty line." I wonder if that means those are the people they are marketing those 7 plans to, or if that means they are the only people required to pay into the health care plans.

I haven't read the link, not enough time, so I'm just thinking out loud.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
In your quote, the end of the sentence is "for people making more than 300 percent of the poverty line." I wonder if that means those are the people they are marketing those 7 plans to, or if that means they are the only people required to pay into the health care plans.

I inferred the former, but now that you've pointed out the dangling modifier, who knows???







:


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I can see the bureaucratic nightmare of a universal single-payer system, but I also believe the benefits are worth it.

You might be pleasantly surprised. http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php

If you get time for nothing else, check out the cartoon on the page.

I can't remember where I read this, but I know that some RIDICULOUS percentage of our health care costs fund the overhead needed to process claims, generate bills, etc. Reducing the primary insurer to a single entity, the government, would simplify the process immensely.

BTW, I finally saw Sick-o the other night. It cracked me up--in a sad, macabre way--when that woman got in an auto accident. Her insurance wouldn't shell out because THE AMBULANCE HADN'T BEEN PRE-APPROVED!


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## jaxensmommy (Nov 14, 2007)

I was wondering the same thing. I was so angry after I watched the film. I had such a hard time with the insurance industry when I was pregnant.


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## Unagidon (Aug 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
Yes, I do mean single payer. So what is the plan in Mass? They demand everyone have insurance Do they regulate what the insurance companies are charging?

Yes, insurance is heavily regulated and all states regulate premiums, although not all in the same way.


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## queenjulie (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I saw someone there say you have to wait in Quebec for 4 hours in the ER. My MIL (and millions of others) believe this without any proof.

I've heard that argument so many times, and I find it so hilarious (and sad). The average wait time in the US is roughly 6 hours, I believe (but I don't have a cite right now, sorry--will check). I know when DH had to go to the ER for a ripped cornea, we waited at least 3 hours, which I understood, given that he wasn't really dying or anything. However, the guy sitting next to us also waited at least 3 hours, possibly longer, and he was bleeding so heavily from a huge gash on the head that it was RUNNING ONTO THE FLOOR OF THE ER. It was horrifying.


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## sunnybear (Nov 18, 2004)

So if people in MA are required to have health insurance, I can only imagine how expensive it would get if you want to see an alternative practitioner who doesn't take insurance. So you'd have to pay for insurance, then pay out of pocket for the doctor that you REALLY want to go to...


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## ecstaticmama24 (Sep 20, 2006)

I just watched Sicko too, crazy. I mean, I knew it was private in the states, but the movie was just sad. I never knew how lucky I was to have health care in Canada. Actually, a while back a woman from Alberta (where I live) had a baby in the states unplanned (early), and the bill was insane, something like $68,000, and our gov't even paid for that even though she did not have sufficient travelers insurance. Although they did say it would not be a regular thing.

I feel sorry for those who have to live with that health care system, I can't even imagine.

But I sure would love to live in France!!!


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## youmb00 (Sep 25, 2007)

watched it recently too. I was actually kind of disappointed that it didn't cover more problems. Outrageous as our health system is I already knew most of that and wished there were more I didn't know about.

My husband went into ER once because irregular heartbeat for 3 hours, we got charged $1000 after insurance. Total charge was $70,000. They charged us for everything! such as juice, tissue, etc.

DH doesn't think universal healthcare in US will happen in our life time. I hope he's wrong!


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Last night DP and I decided that if by the time we have good equity built up in our home, if the US hasn't implemented a universal healthcare plan we are selling the house and taking our cash and getting out of the states. Canada is one option. Norway is another. We would both love to move to england but aren't sure yet how we could pull that off. Either way, we have a plan.


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## canuckgal (May 5, 2004)

I just saw Sicko a week ago with dh. I live here in Canada, and also work in "the system" as an RN. Yes, as an RN, I would make better wages in the US, have a more flexable schedule, etc but NO WAY would my conscience let me work under the US system.

I am born and raised here, and like other Canadians in the show, it is just matter of fact...you go to the hospital, you get treated. No worry as to "cost". I just could not believe some of the things I saw in this movie, like the man who had to pick which finger to reattach. Wouldn't be a concern here. And we don't have insurance companies dictating to doctors what tests they can or cannot order. They just order it if you need it. I lived in the Yukon about 10 yr ago, worked on a maternity ward, and still remember we always had at least 1 or 2 Alaskans here having a baby and splitting the next morning, as it was about 900.00 for the stay vs 5-6000.00







:

There are some drawbacks, like waiting lists for things like hip replacements....MIL waited a year and we were (jokingly) debating a fundraiser to send her to North Dakota for surgery (I live about 1 1/2 hrs from the US border) There are some "private" things springing up, like MRI clinics (major debate up here about these things and ironically there is a movement to bring things like private hip surgery, although us Canadians generally are protective about our universal care, just like you are about your private







) , and we always have had things like private insurances (mine is Blue Cross) to cover 80-100% drugs, as well as a portion of things not deemed "basic" like ambulance, massage therapy, actupuncture, private home care, etc. O, yes, and we are income taxed to death here.

I really think Moore did gloss over our system a bit, and didn't show some of the negatives, but I really would take our system over the States, warts and all.

Tina


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## californiajenn (Mar 7, 2007)

So, the big question is: How do we get better healthcare for ALL in the US? Do we need a huge rally, contact politicians, or pack and move to Canada?


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## AlexisT (May 6, 2007)

Universal insurance is not that radical an idea. It's in operation in some European countries and in Israel (though I think in Israel, you don't buy insurance exactly, you pay a "health tax" and then join the health fund of your choice). I think Switzerland works that way. France has a mixed system, where you have mandatory coverage that pays part of the cost, and you either pay the rest out of pocket or buy complementary insurance (if you're very poor, there's free complementary insurance).

I really would not recommend the NHS as a model; Sicko makes it out much better than it is. Really, the NHS is the ultimate bureaucratic nightmare because it's one centrally run system. I actually hated the film. I didn't need an hour and a half telling me that the US system sucks and other countries do better--I KNOW that. What we need is concrete solutions for how to fix it. Michael Moore faking shock at not having to pay at an NHS hospital (which, btw, is only true if you're covered--foreigners have to pay and they have signs up warning you about it!) is not really helpful, it's just a stunt.


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlexisT* 
Universal insurance is not that radical an idea. It's in operation in some European countries and in Israel (though I think in Israel, you don't buy insurance exactly, you pay a "health tax" and then join the health fund of your choice). I think Switzerland works that way. France has a mixed system, where you have mandatory coverage that pays part of the cost, and you either pay the rest out of pocket or buy complementary insurance (if you're very poor, there's free complementary insurance).

I really would not recommend the NHS as a model; Sicko makes it out much better than it is. Really, the NHS is the ultimate bureaucratic nightmare because it's one centrally run system. I actually hated the film. I didn't need an hour and a half telling me that the US system sucks and other countries do better--I KNOW that. What we need is concrete solutions for how to fix it. Michael Moore faking shock at not having to pay at an NHS hospital (which, btw, is only true if you're covered--foreigners have to pay and they have signs up warning you about it!) is not really helpful, it's just a stunt.

I agree that most of Michael Moore's propaganda is just that. However, he does bring certain things to the forefront that in America are easy to ignore (if it's not happening to you, that is







). THAT is the American disorder, more than anything - a refusal to acknowledge problems beyond your sphere of experience.

Right now, though, I'd take an NHS bureaucratic nightmare over my current situation. My DH and I make over $60k a year (together) and can't afford insurance through either of our companies (premiums of *over* $1000 a month for healthy 20-somethings!). We have a savings acct that we just put a percentage of our income into and hope for the best. I got meningitis a couple months ago and spent 3 hours in a hospital, and $3000 later, we're STILL getting bills







:.

Give me bureaucracy!


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

I'll be posting some URL's before long about how to get involved. Meanwhile, I was wondering if Canadian posters would be willing to comment on this: http://www.nam.org/s_nam/doc2.asp?CID=201545&DID=230037

The sources are questionable (i.e. ideologically charged), but I'm interested in hearing comments.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Okey dokey. It's posted in the Sticky section. I had to do research on this for a class, and we gathered data on some different states. Check out where you can get involved!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

There is so much there and I know a lot of it isn't true or is slanted to look bad, but I can't respond to it all.

Re: wait times. I have been lucky that I have never had to wait for anything. I had surgery and it was scheduled within the week. I had to reschedule because I couldn't get child care in time.

Now dental surgery,which is not covered by health care, so it is private, is another story. I had to wait months for a consult, which was today. Now my surgery isn't for 2 months and i am in pain. So the wait times and universal health care are not as linked as some might think.

As for doctors visits going up 32%- so what? I would think that most of them were people who should have seen a doctor before but went without because they could not afford it, which was the entire point of adopting universal health care.

I've seen multiple studies that show that more every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to administrative costs than it does here.

If you have any more specific questions, I can try to answer them.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Unless you're a doc or other health care provider, you probably can't comment on the alleged mass exodus of Canadian physicians to the U.S. But you replied to the important parts. Thanks! The rumor in the U.S. is that Canadian citizens are losing their lives waiting for a doctor. So far, I've seen no compelling evidence of this carnage...


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## digitsums (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
I just watched Sicko and am still processing it. I've been behind Universal Healthcare for years but now I really want to get active. What organizations are supporting this cause? What can we do?

Hi, I just wanted to tell you (speaking of wanting to get active) that I am really enthusiastic about the presidential candidacy of Ron Paul. I have not been enthusiastic for a candidate since I started voting (in 1972!!). I have voted a straight democratic ticket without enthusiasm since then. I think that Republic/Libertarian/traditional conservative Ron Paul needs our support. He believes a dishonest money system (the "making" of money out of thin air by the Federal Reserve) is causing our problems today--even the health care issues.) I'm not an economist, but I think he's right. I hope I can encourage people to look at his platform. There are a huge number of homeschoolers rooting for him, too! Thanks for listening.


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## ILoveMyBabyBird (Sep 2, 2006)

Finally saw the movie last night. It was very disturbing, what are our options? Leave the US or go to jail? Currently dh and i don't have hi, and we plan to sign up in January, I am reluctant to do so. I was quoted an extra 1000$ a month if I added maternity benefits, yikes! No thanks. Its kind of funny when I call companies and say I want maternity added, you can hear the since of concern in their voice, and they always ask, are you pregnant? Like, no way they are going to cover me. I'm not pregnant, but maybe I would like to be again someday, kwim? I really would like to just have a homebirth next time, but dh is against it. We'll see. I am all for univeral healthcare, dh's work plan sucks we'd be paying 1000$ a month if ds and I get on, and that is for a ppo w/a deductible and 80/20 coinsurance. Dh's employer pays nothing for family, so ds and i will be looking for our own plan. Dh said he chose the wrong country to go to, he originally from india, but I think rather than leaving it, we should try to change it, kwim? I mean it's funny that so many people in the us act like we are so free, but really our freedom is an illusion, and the big head and corporations brainwash us, and dumb us down, and so many people fall for it. I was talking to a cousin about universal healthcare, and said something about communism, oh give me a break, what about public schools, libraries, etc? Kwim?


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ILoveMyBabyBird* 
I mean it's funny that so many people in the us act like we are so free, but really our freedom is an illusion, and the big head and corporations brainwash us, and dumb us down, and so many people fall for it. I was talking to a cousin about universal health care, and said something about communism - oh give me a break, what about public schools, libraries, etc?


I've never been disillusioned regarding our lack of freedoms here in the U.S.
Some people are, though, and some people are called paranoid for thinking we have no freedoms.
I just get so tired of hearing, the war is good, they are dying for our freedoms!

What freedoms?


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## momeg (Dec 4, 2006)

_I mean it's funny that so many people in the us act like we are so free, but really our freedom is an illusion, and the big head and corporations brainwash us, and dumb us down, and so many people fall for it. I was talking to a cousin about universal healthcare, and said something about communism, oh give me a break, what about public schools, libraries, etc? Kwim?[/QUOTE]_

_Public schools, libraries, etc._ are precisely why a government controlled health care system is so scary to me. The Federal government of the United States has proven itself inept when it comes to managing large-scale institutions. Forget _libraries_ and replace that thought with Social Security or IRS. I do think that there is a crisis going on in the health care system, but there is also one going on in the education system and the tax system and the lending system and the credit system and a lot of other systems. Having Big Brother come in and pick up the check for health care is only going to replace one problem with another, I am afraid. There are alternatives that could help--de-regulating the medical profession, setting up a national health information database, listing the true cost medical procedures and letting up on right-to-die laws are just a few. Health care is expensive and is getting more and more expensive everyday, but it is not accurate to blame just Corporate America for this. Mismanaged bureacracy, frivolous malpractice suits, increased longevity--all of these factors contribute. There is no real cut-and-dry solution to this problem, as with many in such a large and diverse republic as the US, but a vast majority of our complicated burdens from health care to housing loans could be eased a bit if people would take a little more personal responsibility--eat right, exercise and don't get cable tv when you can't pay your mortgage.

And tell your cousin--it would be socialism, not communism. There is no centralized government authority in a communist society.


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## molarmama (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I saw someone there say you have to wait in Quebec for 4 hours in the ER. .

We recently waited more than that in the ER for my husband's appendicitis.....in the US with insurance. There were a million people there. Many of whom would not be there if they had insurance and someplace else to go.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm in the midle of an insurance nightmare (again) and am just infuriated. I feel like I've been so fed up for so long I just want to get the hell out of here. Hopefully that'll pass soon and I will again become motivated to try & work towards change..... I'm off to read links & hopefully find some much needed motivation


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## kittycat9 (Nov 3, 2006)

Amanda, we're right there with you.

Our son (surviving twin) was born at 23.6wks. He'll be 4 at the end of this month, and we STILL have not seen a neurologist to official diagnose him. Between the ridiculous waitlists, Ped. Neuro's leaving the hospital, and DH's company getting bought out (prompting a change in insurance) - we can't get in. We're now on our 4th waitlist in over 2 years.

All we know is what we learned in the NICU, and what we/regular drs can see with our own eyes. No one will say it's CP, but there's definitely a neuro issue as a result of g2 bleed. He has little fine motor, poor gross motor, and just learned to walk this summer.

And don't even get me started on insurance not following through and paying the bills that are clearly outlined in our policy as covered. The first year Kyle was home - $80K in rejected claims that were overturned a year later. So far this year, $18K - plus we've paid a total of $8600 out of pocket, thanks to the insurance changes and having to hit OOP max levels & copays that we still pay, even when we hit the OOP. And we supposedly have GOOD insurance?

I say bring on the Canadian waitlists - it sure beats being on one here in Chicago!


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

(Forgive me, I'm probably going to ramble just to get these thoughts out of my head) I just watched SICKO last night and felt embarrassed and really sad for our country. DH and I talked at length at what it would take for a major healthcare change in the US. Honestly, I think it would take a revolution of massive proportions to get change to occur. One thing about our country that makes us unable to change is money. Politicians, even ones who care or used to care, are in someone's pocket financially. . .it's so sad. We all want money, many think we are "owed" money in some way, and money is what our country is all about. Sure, we "care" about others as long as it doesn't take away from us. It's so sad! Most want healthcare reform, but won't do the work necessary to make it happen. . .we want someone else to do it for us. UGH


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

nak

If you're fortunate enough to be able to vote in a state primary, and if single-payer health care is a top priority for you, make sure Kucinich gets your vote! http://www.dennis4president.com/go/i...ealthy-nation/
To my knowledge, he's the only Democratic candidate who supports a single-payer system.

The question came up in another forum about whether Hillary Clinton intends to impose individual mandates, i.e. forcing the uninsured to buy insurance as is the case in Massachusetts. The answer is yes:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/20823958
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/polit...ton_09-17.html

Ditto Edwards.

I'm not wowed by Obama's plan, (doesn't go far enough imho), but at least he says nay to individual mandates.


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## hippiemum21580 (Jul 14, 2007)

I would love to rally for changes in our healthcare system here in the states and will of ocurse do what I can with my voice to make it heard as far as voting, letter-writing, etc.... But I am disheartened (or enough of a realist) to say I really don't think a change in healthcare here will happen anytime in the near future. money rules too many venues. So, my motive spurs me to start saving for a move out of states. Heck, the kids are learning french in homeschool anyway, we might as well put it to use!


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## honeybunch2k8 (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
What is wrong with a plan like what Canada has honestly? You know what's wrong...the insurance lobby doesn't like it because it would put them out of business and they're all about making money!







:

People like to point out that there are longer wait times in Canada._Well, maybe that's cuz everyone has insurance._ Also, people like to point out how Germans don't like their health care. These people conveniently forget there are other countries with the uni health care where people are generally satisfied.









Not to mention the Red fear.

Some people are afraid of being taxed again and don't realize there is plenty of money out there but it goes to big corporations who destroy the planet, then more taxpayer $$$ to clean up their mess. If more money is needed there is the option of having more progressive taxes.

I was very embarassed esp.after watching Salud!


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

I think what people don't get about Canadian wait times is they are priority based...I had the misfortune of going in on the night that USA started bombing Iraq and a few too many elderly canadians were watching cnn
....well it was heartattackcentral that night so me and my buddies with non lifethreatening ailments waited a long long time. But I don't mind I don't want some woman with kidney stones treated before my heartattack.

If you are low priority (could be seen by a gp, or not going to get worse with time injury) then you will wait.

I am physically disabled, I've been through the system here.
Its a system like any other.
Sometimes people wait as they are too polite








you have to manage your own care - if a specialist can't see you for 3 months, you ask for a cancellation...usually they get you in a week to two.

My midwife is free








But not everything is free, you must pay for circumcisions, half of vaccinations aren't paid for especially if they are for travelling. We still have supplemental insurance to cover extras...most drugs aren't covered, most eyecare isn't covered, most dental procedures aren't covered, chiropractors aren't covered..etc...so its not blanket universal healthcare. People on welfare and the elderly do get some extra coverage.

All systems have their drawbacks.
But the American one seems like a useless expensive nightmare....


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## honeybunch2k8 (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shiloh* 
I think what people don't get about Canadian wait times is they are priority based...I had the misfortune of going in on the night that USA started bombing Iraq and a few too many elderly canadians were watching cnn
....well it was heartattackcentral that night so me and my buddies with non lifethreatening ailments waited a long long time. But I don't mind I don't want some woman with kidney stones treated before my heartattack.

If you are low priority (could be seen by a gp, or not going to get worse with time injury) then you will wait.

I am physically disabled, I've been through the system here.
Its a system like any other.
Sometimes people wait as they are too polite








you have to manage your own care - if a specialist can't see you for 3 months, you ask for a cancellation...usually they get you in a week to two.

My midwife is free








But not everything is free, you must pay for circumcisions, half of vaccinations aren't paid for especially if they are for travelling. We still have supplemental insurance to cover extras...most drugs aren't covered, most eyecare isn't covered, most dental procedures aren't covered, chiropractors aren't covered..etc...so its not blanket universal healthcare. People on welfare and the elderly do get some extra coverage.

All systems have their drawbacks.
But the American one seems like a useless expensive nightmare....

It's nice to read your post.

I think that's something else some people here don't understand. _Some Canadians or Europeans may be dissatisfied with the health care, but they sure as heck don't want our system!_

I have a friend in Finland. I'll ask what are the pros and cons of his system.


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## AlexisT (May 6, 2007)

An important point is that there are different methods of ensuring universal coverage and they all have pluses and minuses. We don't necessarily have to copy Canada, which has big restrictions on private medicine, or the UK, which has an enormous state run service. France uses a combination of public and private medicine and most French people are very satisfied.


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## AlexisT (May 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Hubby talked about having them watch _Sicko_ since we'll be there for Thanksgiving.

I don't think (though don't quote me) that you have to be a citizen of France to get the healthcare.

Hubby's grandfather was born in Scotland, so hubby (and by extension me and our kids) is eligible for dual citizenship (we wouldn't give up US status) in the UK and US. It's a matter of documentation, though hubby's GF has been hesitant about providing his birth documentation to hubby's sister who wanted to do the dual citizenship. It's an "I came here so you wouldn't have to live there" thing.

You don't have to be a citizen of France; you have to be legally resident there and paying into the system (there are different "regimes" depending on how you're employed).

The French system is much better than the British one--the UK is a nightmare. I wouldn't move here for the healthcare!


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

I hear that healthcare in the UK and Australia is far worse than here in the USA . . . sometimes the wait is months and months, or even years, to be seen for even fairly urgent things. I have a friend in Australia who had a spinal condition that was causing irreversible progressive paralyzation and she had to wait forever (many, many months) to get the surgery to stop the progression.

They talked about bringing her over here to the USA for medical help, but couldn't afford it. When she did finally get the surgery, she found out afterwards that the surgical instruments hadn't been properly sterilized after the previous patient, who had a very dangerous communicable disease (I think there are going to be some serious repercussions for the hospital over that).

Because doctors are so poorly paid and the system is so difficult for doctors to work in, they really end up with a shortage of providers. I read a few blogs by doctors and nurses within the NHS, and I would far rather have our system than theirs.

Another issue with one-payer system is that in places like the UK the government really has a lot of power over what procedures they will or won't allow, and what they will pay for. It makes cases like that of Charlotte Wyatt more likely to happen. (She was born very prematurely and severely disabled, and the government took custody of her and declared a DNR and cessation of agressive treatments on her against her parents' strong objections, saying she was basically brain-dead and would never be able to interact, see, hear or experience anything but pain even if she lived. She now sees, hears, interacts, expresses joy, plays with toys and is learning to walk.)

Our system has its flaws, certainly, but I worry about ending up with something even worse.


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## honeybunch2k8 (Jan 14, 2008)

^I stand corrected lol.

I do still feel bad though. Even Cuba has something and they are very poor. We can't even have it for the kids.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

You find one case like this and think it is representative?

What about this: http://www.dakotavoice.com/2007/03/t...ay-notice.html

or this:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/co...tter_1216.html

I also remember reading about a premature baby in Texas who was denied treatment against the parents' wishes because they could not afford it.
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/hea...pport_sto.html

I know people in Australia who are quite happy with their care, and as a Canadian, I am quite happy with my care.

American care may be satisfactory to some people, but most people I know are unhappy with it. A friend of mine had her cancer treatment delayed (perhaps dangerously so) because of medicaid problems in TX. The worst part though is that millions of people cannot access it. Medical bills are the number one reason for bankruptcy in the U.S. The U.S has one of the worst maternal health care in developed nations.

The system is broken, and desperately needs fixed in some way.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Obviously there are going to be horror stories within any system, and no system is perfect.

I'd be very interested to see how many people in the UK are happy with their care. I've seen a lot of doctors, nurses and patients very unhappy with the UK system, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone from England saying that they thought their healthcare system was great. I think the general concensus is that the NHS is not a good system.

I think a combination of public and private healthcare, or some kind of voucher system, would be better than a completely government-run healthcare system.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybunch2k8* 
I have a friend in Finland. I'll ask what are the pros and cons of his system.


I'm a Finn and I am perfectly happy with the system we have. I see often that in USA England and Canada are the only examples used when socialized healthcare is talked about. Just reminding that there are many many other countries using this system.

I have total freedom of choice about doctors. There is a law here that if you need to see (none emergency)specialist it must happen less than 3 months.

My children are both SN and see private speech therapist once a week + my son sees occupational therapist once a week - all paid by goverment. And I chose the therapists and then just informed where goverment sends the payment. + we get 400€/month to any extra costs we might have (therapy toys etc.)+ we see specialist twice a year in the hospital+we got computer program, value over 600€ just to help with speech, reading etc.

Any medical costs going over 500€ (medicine, hosital stay etc.)is covered by goverment. So no matter what your problem is, your expencies never go over that. Also medicines are partly covered by goverment so you never pay full prize and some medicines are totally free.

My yearly costs to see my healthcenter doctor are 33€. With that I can see doctor every day if I want to.

Medical&dental care is 100% free for people under 17. I just got 3 old fillings changed to new ones + cleaning. Total expence was 78€. So dental isn't that prizy even if you are over 17. And if you are poor then you get assistance so you get everything free.

Of course no system is perfect. But. For me the mainthing is that no matter what happens I and my children are always taken care of. We will never have to worry that we would go hungry, or without home or without healthcare.


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## momtoafireteam (Aug 8, 2007)

I was born in the UK and raised in Australia. I may have been leading sheltered existence, but I have NEVER heard of anyone (and know no one in my family) has waited years or even months for anything. And we were just on regular govt given healthcare. My Dr's were excellent, my care was top notch and my parents never once worried that I would get sick and they couldnt afford to help me.

Not trying to be snarky AT ALL, but I am actually yet to come across any canadian, brit, franc or aussie who hates their care so intensely they would prefer to be here. It seems that the people saying "But I know someone in _______ and they HATE universal healthcare!!" are always the ones against it.

DH is military here in the US, so we get govt healthcare. Yep, I have complained about a ped clinic, or whined at a ER when I have waited 3+ hrs. But my god, its free, they will cover anything I need, and I never ever have to worry that myself or my children arent protected. It literally makes me cry that so many people in the USA dont have that level of security.


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

I think that we can all find flaws in our care...and as Canadians we do know how to politely complain







Just because we can complain doesn't mean its broken just we see ways it could be better.

Quote:

which has big restrictions on private medicine
I think there's another myth about Canada there are private hospitals some aspects of medicine are still private...(plastic surgery, dental, labs...) you can pay for your care if you choose...

Quote:

Because doctors are so poorly paid and the system is so difficult for doctors to work in, they really end up with a shortage of providers.
our gps if I remember correctly are not allowed to bill more than 400k a year to the system...it limits the number of surgeries that can be done by specialists because of caps on billing but really do you want a doctor seeing 60 patients a day? Also the malpractice insurance is so low here compared to the USA..you won't make a million plus a year as a doctor here (they go to the USA for that







and we do loose a lot to the usa...


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjulie* 
I've heard that argument so many times, and I find it so hilarious (and sad). The average wait time in the US is roughly 6 hours, I believe (but I don't have a cite right now, sorry--will check). I know when DH had to go to the ER for a ripped cornea, we waited at least 3 hours, which I understood, given that he wasn't really dying or anything. However, the guy sitting next to us also waited at least 3 hours, possibly longer, and he was bleeding so heavily from a huge gash on the head that it was RUNNING ONTO THE FLOOR OF THE ER. It was horrifying.

Just had to add onto this:

Average wait time here (Buffalo, NY) is between 4 and 6 hours. Twice we have gone to the ER for DH.

Once, when he had a mirror explode (big wall mirror, just kind of exploded while he was cleaning it)... Huge gashes in his hand, wrist and arm. DH was bleeding profusely, turning white, his tongue was white, passing out, dripping blood all over the floor. We waited 4 hours to be seen. Meanwhile, the kid with the sprained ankle and a health insurance card got in ahead of him.

The second time, he was having a major, nasty gallbladder attack. Vomiting, passing out, white as a ghost, in severe pain. This was also before we knew it was his gallbladder. It took from 9 am til 6 pm, so 9 hours, before he was seen. By the time he got in there, the attack had passed.

So, yea, I, too, am sick of hearing the "average wait time in such-and-such-socialized-medicine-country is so many hours".


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

I can't see how the American health system could possibly get any worse than it is. It makes me cry to think of that poor, sick old woman who was stuffed into a taxi and dumped on a pavement in her hospital shirt because she wasn't a lucrative customer. I'm wondering whose grandmother she was.









I'm very happy that I have a brilliant, friendly family doctor that I have chosen myself, that I can call any day, and get an appointment the same day, if I'm worried that my son might have an ear infection or if I'm wondering what that rash on his back is - and not pay a single cent for the visit.









I can't imagine how hard it must be for all those MDC mothers that I have read about on these boards, who are wondering how to pay for their midwife. A system where people are considering having a UC not because they want to, but because they can't afford a midwife - and where a child's unexpected illness can cause a family to go bankrupt and lose their home - it's just a disgrace. I hope it will change soon!


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
I'd be very interested to see how many people in the UK are happy with their care. I've seen a lot of doctors, nurses and patients very unhappy with the UK system, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone from England saying that they thought their healthcare system was great. I think the general concensus is that the NHS is not a good system.

The Health Care Commission undertakes regular surveys of patients' opinions of the NHS. In its most recent survey (2006), experience of hospitals in England was rated by those who responded to the surveys as follows:
"excellent" (41%),
"very good (36%)",
"good"(15%),
"fair" (6%)
and "poor" (2%).

In this IPSOS-MORI poll 78% of respondents chose the statement "The NHS is crucial to British society and we must do everything to maintain it",
20% chose "The NHS was a great project but we cannot maintain it in its current form".

It's worth noting as well that NO political party in the UK proposes removing the NHS. They all have their own take on things that need to be tweaked, but nobody ever suggests removing universal health care, even the fringe parties.

Quote:

Because doctors are so poorly paid and the system is so difficult for doctors to work in, they really end up with a shortage of providers. I read a few blogs by doctors and nurses within the NHS, and I would far rather have our system than theirs.
I really don't understand this doctors being poorly paid thing. I suppose it depends what your scale is. A consultant will earn around $200,000. A junior doctor on their first year after graduation (what used to be called a house officer) will earn between $50,000 & $80,000 depending on where they are etc. My partner is a medical student, lots of my friends are recently graduated & working their first jobs, my father is a doctor, & none of them have ever complained (to me) about their pay.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I'm very happy that I have a brilliant, friendly family doctor that I have chosen myself, that I can call any day, and get an appointment the same day, if I'm worried that my son might have an ear infection or if I'm wondering what that rash on his back is - and not pay a single cent for the visit.









Exactly.(Hejsan Norge!). My son has had a runny nose 3 days, no fever. Today I noticed that he has eye infection. I call 1.30 pm, we were at our doctor 2.10pm and all ready at home 2.30 putting medicine in his eyes.

Doctor fees 0€.
Medicine for the eyes 14 €.


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

I just saw Sicko too and healthcare has been on the forefront of mind since then. Me and dh have discussed it and he got in a big fight with some conservative acquaintances at a party the other day. This will probably be rambly but I want to put some ideas on the table.

Quote:

I can see the bureaucratic nightmare of a universal single-payer system, but I also believe the benefits are worth it. One of the problems I have is that I'm not so big on letting states administer the program. Yeah, I understand the separate powers to feds and state, but I think that's where it becomes a PITA to do something like that here
I have to say that I agree with one (and only one) republican ideal and that is smaller federal government. I would rather see more of my money going to my state where I can actually talk to my reps than to the feds which are totally inaccessible. I think democracy is healthier on a smaller scale and wish there was less attention constantly on the federal government doing everything. I am for universal, single payer insurance but only on a state level. I am lucky to live in Connecticut where there is already a very good plan that is available to ALL children -HUSKY. It is better than any insurance you can buy. For the past few years, my dd has had it for free because of our income but this year we will probably have to pay a small amount for her but way less than private insurance. Likewise people who work for the state have great coverage. I would like to see a system where everyone could either get for free of pay in to this system at a reasonable price dependent on income.

Also, short of universal coverage, we could certainly have some laws protecting the insured. No one should be allowed to be denied coverage. Nothing a doctor orders should be denied payment. That would be a good start at least for people who are insured.

It makes me so angry that people think our system is so great. Maybe we have top notch care for the elite but I'd rather have better care for everyone.
After watching sicko, i did a little online research. We pay more PER CAPITA than any other country in the world for our healthcare and millions of us don't have it and we are less satisfied and live less long. What's the deal?


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

This is what I don't get the American government pays more per capita than the Canadian government and we have universal healthcare...so doesn't the HMO system really make for more government? I wonder how many beaucrats compared to population...I just scratch my head thinking you pay MORE of your taxes for a system that gives you so much less...and on top of that you have to pay private coverage or if you have work coverage copays..

someone is making a tonne of money.

just like perscription drugs.
Canada imports most of its drugs from the USA...but we can buy them at a fraction of a cost...even though they've been shipped, dutied, TAXED, dispensing fees...added on top...we get Americans driving here to buy American made drugs at a fraction....

someone is making a tonne of money.


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

I keep telling you, it's not at crazy as Michael Moore has painted it. He embellishes the truth in his... "Documentarys" all the time. Look at Bowling for Columbine. The entire title is based on an unproven myth about the events.


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## yelloq (Feb 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Obviously there are going to be horror stories within any system, and no system is perfect.

I'd be very interested to see how many people in the UK are happy with their care. I've seen a lot of doctors, nurses and patients very unhappy with the UK system, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone from England saying that they thought their healthcare system was great. I think the general concensus is that the NHS is not a good system.

I was very happy with the NHS when I lived in England. I was very happy with the Swedish system when I lived in Sweden. I am very happy with OHIP now that I live in Canada. None of these are perfect, but they remain fantastic systems. The only healthcare system that I found unacceptable and would absolutely not return to is the US system of private insurance. As someone with ongoing, chronic healthcare needs, it is an enormous relief to live somewhere with universal care (and I have received excellent care) and I am appalled when I see my friends in America unable to get treatment because they cannot afford it (even with insurance).

Yes, I pay higher taxes in Canada. But my total costs are lower because I don't have co-pays or deductibles and I, like most people, have dental, vision and prescription coverage through an employer ($2 prescriptions!). I also know that I will not go bankrupt due to unanticipated medical expenses, I don't have to stay at a job I hate for fear of losing my health coverage, I don't have to avoid exciting life changes like opening a business, going back to school or freelancing because doing so would make me lose my insurance. I can think about my reproductive choices in a different way since medical costs are not part of the equation. These are the kinds of intangible benefits I think are often overlooked.

A comment on wait times: I wish I had the link to the study, but I read a great article a while back that showed wait times in Canada for most types of healthcare are actually far less than wait times in the US (and other countries had even shorter times). It has certainly been true in my experience. I think it's important to recognize what we're talking about when we're comparing surgical wait times (elective vs non-elective) and to have some perspective - when my former partner, who didn't have insurance, had to go to ER he went to a special ER at Rush-Presbyterian in Chicago for the uninsured and we spent 11 hours for him to be seen for 2 minutes and then spent months trying to pay off the bill, finally having to beg the hospital to pardon the debt because there was no way he could pay it because he already had a mountain of medical bills from an emergency hernia operation he had tried and failed to put off until he had insurance. Compared to that, 4 hours in Quebec doesn't really seem that bad.


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:

you pay MORE of your taxes for a system that gives you so much less...and on top of that you have to pay private coverage or if you have work coverage copays..
I think that figure of how much we spend as a nation includes the amount we spend on private coverage. I don't think we spend more of our tax money alone but as a society we spend more and many of us get less.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Speaking of bureaucratic nighmares...I have an anecdote.

I have American neighbours. They moved here 2 years ago. This was their reality: one time they had to go to the ER because the husband cut his finger badly. They called their insurer, who told them to leave the ER, and go to a walk-in clinic, because they didn't cover the particular ER they went to. So they went to the clinic. All this time the finger is bleeding, bleeding, bleeding. The clinic says : you need an ER. Go to the hospital. This time, they call the insurer to find out which ER they can go to. This whole debacle took hours.

Then the wife needed an emergency c-section. Because they failed to get it 'pre-authorized" with their insurer, the insurer denied their claim. They then proceeded to spend a year filling out paperwork and fighting the denial of claim. it was eventually paid. It seems that their insurer liked to fight wars of attrition with it's insurees. Does that seem an efficient use of resources?

This was in Arizona. This couple are well-paid professionals.

Honestly, when I hear people say that Canda et al are bureaucratic, I laugh hollowly: hahahahahahahahahaha. For all it's faults - mainly due to lack of funding - I've never had care denied. I've never had to get my trip to an ER pre-authorized, I can go to whichever hospital I want. I've never had to wait at an ER. And I've certainly never had to spend months and months on paperwork afterwards, fighting a government who denied my claim. It's just covered, no questions asked. I will say our hospitals aren't pretty nor are our clinics, but who cares?


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

I think that the media greatly exaggerates the wait time issue. I suspect the wait times for surgeries in canada are significantly less than the time it takes for an American to fight with their insurance company for pre-approval. Or worse, to save up the money for surgery if they don't have insurance. A doctor in Canada never has to ask for pre-approval for anything.

Plus, the wait times are mainly for elective surgery - things that can wait. I have never heard of anyone being in a serious accident and having to wait for life saving surgery. When I was in a car accident I had a CT scan immediately. People do wait a long time when they go to the ER for minor things; but I think that is appropriate - that type of use of the ER should be discouraged, that is what walk-in clinics are for.

Even the people who do complain about our current system don't want to trade it for the American system. I have never, ever, heard anyone suggest that we switch to a system where you have to pay for medical treatment. That's the part that the media overlooks when they say that Canadians are 'not happy' with our system. Sure, we don't think it's perfect, but that doesn't mean that we would give up universal health care. Not a chance.


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## RolliePollie (May 10, 2006)

I don't think people who are opposed to a universal health care system know what it's like to go into massive debt over medical bills.

Let's give them several thousand in medical debt, take away their insurance and hound them with collection calls. Then when they need to visit the doctor we should ask them if they are willing to go without groceries for the next couple of weeks just to do so.


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## the_coyote (Feb 28, 2008)

I have yet to read through all of what everyone has written here, but to answer your question, "Where's the Revolution?" ....... IT IS HERE! WITHIN ALL OF US... It is our duty and our responsibility to stand up and fight for what we deserve as American citizens. If our goverment is not governing the people how we feel fit, if they are creating a failing economy and increasing crime rates, WE MUST DO SOMETHING!
The EVOLUTION REVOLUTION has been born!
Let's unite and take action!


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laggie* 
I think that the media greatly exaggerates the wait time issue. I suspect the wait times for surgeries in canada are significantly less than the time it takes for an American to fight with their insurance company for pre-approval. Or worse, to save up the money for surgery if they don't have insurance. A doctor in Canada never has to ask for pre-approval for anything.

Plus, the wait times are mainly for elective surgery - things that can wait. I have never heard of anyone being in a serious accident and having to wait for life saving surgery. When I was in a car accident I had a CT scan immediately. People do wait a long time when they go to the ER for minor things; but I think that is appropriate - that type of use of the ER should be discouraged, that is what walk-in clinics are for.

Even the people who do complain about our current system don't want to trade it for the American system. I have never, ever, heard anyone suggest that we switch to a system where you have to pay for medical treatment. That's the part that the media overlooks when they say that Canadians are 'not happy' with our system. Sure, we don't think it's perfect, but that doesn't mean that we would give up universal health care. Not a chance.

That's my feeling as well. I've never received anything but the best of care in Canada. There's even ways to get around the lack of dental coverage if you need it. People on income asistance get some care and if you have a tooth that's abssesed or something like that, you can go to the hospital to get it taken out and that would be covered. Cosmetic things, cleaning and check ups are not but I'm OK with that.


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:

WE MUST DO SOMETHING!
The EVOLUTION REVOLUTION has been born!
Let's unite and take action!
You are so right! I just did a little research and found an organization in my state pushing for universal coverage. It turns out there are already several plans on the table in Connecticut. I just spend some time writing to my state reps. Thanks for the inspiration. I think everyone should do the same.


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:

but I read a great article a while back that showed wait times in Canada for most types of healthcare are actually far less than wait times in the US
the cbc had something on how people are getting upset because the wait times for some things are shorter than they are comfortable like I think it was hip replacements you used to expect to wait a long time now they can slam you in in weeks...its freaking people out as most people want to plan that










Quote:

I think that figure of how much we spend as a nation includes the amount we spend on private coverage. I don't think we spend more of our tax money alone but as a society we spend more and many of us get less.
nope having just spent way too long studying that in a university course your GOVERNMENT spends more per capita on healthcare than the Canadian one and a lot of other countries THEN add in individual insurance coverages and copays...makes no freakin sense to the rest of us who watch cnn and scratch our heads why these $$ dudes keep talking about keeping the private coverage stuff...

Quote:

A doctor in Canada never has to ask for pre-approval for anything.
not entirely true take breast reductions if its cosmetic you will pay if it is for backpain its covered...you can get an eyelift if your eyelids sag to the point it obstructs your vision but not if its a nip tuck senario...so they do have to submit sometimes..


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