# why shouldn't we cio?



## Nimbus (Feb 26, 2007)

I'll admit right up front, I'm hoping someone will tell me cio is okay. I'm at the end of my rope and out of ideas. I apologize in advance for the length of my post. I need help, but also need to vent.

DD wakes up every hour to two hours to nurse. She will only go back to sleep if my nipple is in her mouth. If I try to remove it before she is fully, solidly asleep (not just really drowsy), she cries and wakes up again. Then we have to start all over. Unfortunately, I'm not one who can sleep while nursing. If I could, I probably wouldn't have a problem with this. Consequently, I am getting about half a night of sleep in fragments. This has been going on for 8 months. I'm about to crack.

Nearly a week ago, after my monthly "I can't take this anymore" breakdown with tears, my dh and I came up with a plan to try to get her to fall asleep in other ways. We decided I would nurse her until she was done eating and then one of us would lay next to her and cuddle her to sleep. We were hoping she might find other ways to soothe herself, but she just seems to cry and get more and more worked up. Nothing is working. When we try nursing or bouncing her until drowsy and then cuddling her to sleep, she just cries and cries. We co-sleep, so one of us always laying right next to her patting, shushing, cuddling, etc. We never leave her alone. We've tried this for 5 nights. She will eventually go to sleep, but only after 45 minutes to an hour of crying. Often, she'll wake up 5-10 minutes later and cry again.

Other things to note: I do nap with her sometimes, but I can't everyday because I work at home part time and I also have a 5 year-old. I've let as many housework things go as possible and just focus on keeping us fed, in clean clothes, and the floor areas clean enough for dd to crawl around and play. Because I'm so tired, I'm short with my ds, my dh, forget things all the time, and pretty much just feel like I'm going crazy. I've also tried NCSS with no results.

Please don't flame me. I need support. I need ideas. I need sleep.


----------



## LeighB (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm sorry, it's so tough having a baby that doesn't sleep. Dd sounds a lot like yours. I think the first year is the hardest though. They start walking, learn to crawl, all this developmental stuff that makes it difficult to sleep.
I've found that keeping the lights dim in the house before bed helps, and creating a long bedtime routine and keeping it every night.
I can't tell you CIO is ok. Because really it's just not. It upsets the bond between you two and creates a other, more serious issues.
Are you drinking coffee during the day? I started drinking coffee again when dd was like 6 months and then she started sleeping even worse. She had never had any reactions to anything in my milk, so I assumed it would be ok. Took me a few weeks to figure that one out.
Good luck! Hugs.


----------



## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Have you tried a dummy? It sounds like she's a very sucky baby and she's used to sucking for comfort so it might help?


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

How about an artificial nipple? When she gets to the stage where she's not actually nursing, but just holding you nipple in her mouth, try seeing if she'll take a pacifier.

And instead of bouncing her until drowsy, have you tried having your dh walk/bounce her all the way to sleep? Again, after she's just eaten.


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I don't want to try to convince you not to CIO--it's a terrible thing to do to a human being of any age and I try to imagine being treated like that if I were very sick or very old and couldn't communicate well.

It sounds like she's signaling something to you--she's been waking every hour to two hours for her entire life, or is this a more recent thing at 8 months? If it's her entire life, I would DEFINITELY suspect a food sensitivity. There are so many things that can cause waking like that--dairy, soy, wheat, caffeine, vegetables like cabbage and broccoli, etc. I would try to completely eliminate as many of those as possible and see if the waking improves. I started with dairy and soy and it made a HUGE difference in my DD's sleep. It's just terrible to give up those things, but it was definitely worth it to me once I got to sleep more!

Don't get me wrong--8 month olds wake A LOT! Teething, the beginning of separation anxiety, developmental leaps (learning to crawl, scoot, etc.) But, if the waking is not a new thing, I would definitely suspect another culprit.

I hope you get it worked out!


----------



## juliav (Nov 21, 2007)

Oh mama, I'm sorry...this sounds really really tough. Is it possible that your LO is having tummy trouble? Namely gas? My LO is a really good sleeper in general, but she's also super gassy. If she doesn't burp after every feeding she gets uncomfortable. She also seems to want to suck to relieve it. Which makes sense since eating triggers the gastro-colic reflex which gets the bowels working. So she's trying to relieve the pressure I think. When I notice her being very clingy and wanting to comfort nurse (I can't sleep while she's on the boob either) I try helping her get the gas out. With her on her back I hold her calves and push her legs into the fetal position and then pull them all the way down fully extended. Then up again then down, Then we go around in a clockwise circular motion. This ALWAYS results in gas release and smiles. Then she calms and goes about whatever she was doing. Also, she does have a pacifier and uses it to comfort suck. I can switch her to that when she's done eating but still wanting to suck and she'll doze off and drop it.

Good luck mama and keep trying...don't let her CIO


----------



## amberg007 (Jul 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeighB* 
I'm sorry, it's so tough having a baby that doesn't sleep. Dd sounds a lot like yours. I think the first year is the hardest though. They start walking, learn to crawl, all this developmental stuff that makes it difficult to sleep.
*I've found that keeping the lights dim in the house before bed helps, and creating a long bedtime routine and keeping it every night.
I can't tell you CIO is ok. Because really it's just not. It upsets the bond between you two and creates a other, more serious issues.*
Are you drinking coffee during the day? I started drinking coffee again when dd was like 6 months and then she started sleeping even worse. She had never had any reactions to anything in my milk, so I assumed it would be ok. Took me a few weeks to figure that one out.
Good luck! Hugs.


I 2nd this. We have a bedtime routine with DD and if it gets distrupted, there is a notable difference in her temperment and way/pace she gets to sleep. We have found that a nice warm bath followed by nursing with the lights down, does the trick. Also, I never take my nipple out. Instead I wait for her to spit it out or for it to slip out. This way, I know she is ready to be done. When in the bed she has my lovie(yes I still have a lovie!), which smells like me.

Sometimes if she is having a hard time and I don't want to go to bed yet, I will let her lay on my lap with her Paci. We just snuggle and watch TV until she falls asleep. I wait a little before laying her down, just to make sure she is totally out.

Also, I know it's hard to keep calm, but the more you get worked up & annoyed, the harder it will be for your LO to relax. His/Her mood reflects yours.

Hope this help. Keep up the good work Mama!


----------



## fruitfulmomma (Jun 8, 2002)

I am normally not an advocate of the pacifier and none of my kids have taken one but in your case I might try that. Sounds like she is pretty used to sucking while she is asleep and she might need it for now.


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
It sounds like she's signaling something to you--she's been waking every hour to two hours for her entire life, or is this a more recent thing at 8 months? If it's her entire life, I would DEFINITELY suspect a food sensitivity.

I 100% second this. Both my kids react to foods, and react when I eat them through my milk. Accidental exposures DEFINITELY interfere with sleep. If I eat corn by mistake, my baby can't sleep without being held the whole night. It's maddening... and I don't know *what* I'd do if it was every night and I didn't feel like I had some control over it!

The top reactants for this sort of thing seem to be gluten (wheat, barley, rye, oats), dairy (all animal milk and milk products), soy, and corn. It can be literally *anything*, but if it's really consistent (i.e. you don't so much have good nights and bad nights), it's likely something you're consuming constantly.

Good luck in getting this sorted out! Sleep is so important... for everyone.


----------



## Jezzy (Sep 20, 2006)

I know what you are going through. My dd 13 months is the same and has always been a bad sleeper. It is tough sometimes. She will like your lo only go to sleep while nursing. I have never gotten her to sleep without nursing her. She won't take a paci either... That may have made things easier... She will also wake up several times in the night anywhere from 2-10 times. She always needs the breast to get back to sleep









You are not alone









Please don't let your baby cio


----------



## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my son was born 5/29/08 and is the same way. its just now starting to get a LITTLE better. its tough I understand, but with a high needs child like that its likely that CIO wouldn't "work" anyway, and CIO is really just a horrible thing. hang in there, it will get easier! it takes a lot of time, often these high needs children seem to be very smart though, and it pays off in the end. Have you tried baby signing? its been very helpful to me, especially with my youngest, you rarely likes to be put down, including during the day.


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
its tough I understand, but with a high needs child like that its likely that CIO wouldn't "work" anyway, and CIO is really just a horrible thing.


----------



## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm going to throw out the very-most-common suggestions which you've probably heard a thousand times. Paradoxically, they are the ones everyone (including me) often forgets about in the thick of things.

1. Do whatever it takes to get her to nap as much as possible. Overtired, under-napped babies wake up more at night. She might need her morning nap really, really early; if she wakes up at 6, try winding her down for a nap at 7:30.

2. Try putting her to bed earlier. Same thing-- overtired means more night waking.

3. This one may be hard with a five-year-old in the house, but if you watch TV, try to prevent the baby from being in the same room with a switched-on TV. Until DS was a year old, if he was in the same room with the TV on for more than 15 minutes at a time on a given day-- even if the sound was off-- he slept especially badly that night.

4. Blackout curtains for the bedroom.

Good luck!


----------



## poiyt (Jul 6, 2008)

DD was an every 1-2 hour waker until she was 13months-ish. It was a LONG 13 months. I found the easiest thing was to have a twin bed and sleep in bed with her, or at least when she woke up I could have a comfy place to lie down and nurse - this helped me tremendously. My dd never took a soother - granted I didnt try very hard.

But...and I may get flamed for this...I found what worked the best was changing my expectations, and my thoughts (though i still had horrible days/weeks where I would cry and fall apart completely). Obviously my child was one who woke, and nothing i tried was going to change that - I couldnt change HER, but I could change ME. I adapted myself - I accepted the fact that yes, she woke a lot, and yes it was going to be a long haul - but yes, it would be over at some point. I would continue to try things to get her to sleep better, but never had any expectations that it would work. It took a while - but eventually I just accepted it, and stopped resenting it, and my body (I think because I wasnt fighting what was happening) began to learn how to get more restful sleep for that hour before she woke up...I adapted - she didnt.

Now, at 18months, dd sleeps through the night (most nights), sleeps in her own twin bed, and doesnt nurse to sleep. It does happen - it just takes time. If she cant adjust, then i think you need to try to adjust your thoughts (not intending that meanly...just honestly, and from someone who KNOWS sleep deprivation!)


----------



## Nimbus (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. Here are answers to a few questions:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tessie* 
Have you tried a dummy? It sounds like she's a very sucky baby and she's used to sucking for comfort so it might help?

We've tried about 10 different types of pacifiers. She likes to chew on them and play with them but not suck on them and she gets mad if I try to give them to her at night.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
And instead of bouncing her until drowsy, have you tried having your dh walk/bounce her all the way to sleep? Again, after she's just eaten.

She'll fall asleep when either dh or I bounce her but wakes up as soon as she's laid down and then needs to be nursed to sleep.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amberg007* 
We have a bedtime routine with DD and if it gets distrupted, there is a notable difference in her temperment and way/pace she gets to sleep. We have found that a nice warm bath followed by nursing with the lights down, does the trick. Also, I never take my nipple out. Instead I wait for her to spit it out or for it to slip out...
I wait a little before laying her down, just to make sure she is totally out...
Also, I know it's hard to keep calm, but the more you get worked up & annoyed, the harder it will be for your LO to relax. His/Her mood reflects yours.

We have a bedtime routine w/ dd, too. The biggest problem is getting her to stay asleep and/or go back to sleep once she has woken at night.
I've tried waiting until she's done and spits my nipple out or releases suction. Seriously, this only happens about 5% of the time. She'll sleep with suction on my nipple and suck 2-5 times every 10 minutes or so.
I need to work harder at staying calm. I'm not irate or anything, but very tense. I know she can sense my mood. I know the sleep problems are not her fault and it's my job to remedy the situation in a way that is gentle and respects her needs. Thanks for the reminder to keep calm!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
its tough I understand, but with a high needs child like that its likely that CIO wouldn't "work" anyway, and CIO is really just a horrible thing. it takes a lot of time, often these high needs children seem to be very smart though, and it pays off in the end. Have you tried baby signing? its been very helpful to me, especially with my youngest, you rarely likes to be put down, including during the day.

CIO probably wouldn't work w/ dd. I'm just grasping at straws and venting. DD has been very alert/intense since birth. People commented even in the first few days. So, I know I don't have an "average" baby (whatever that is!)
We have started signing with her and I'm looking forward to her signing back. I did that w/ ds and it was a huge help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
I agree with people who said to try an elimination diet to see if she's waking because of a GI tract issue. Do you see other evidence of sensitivities - eczema, persistent diarrhea, bad diaper rash, fussiness during waking hours?
Ultimately, I think you have to consider YOUR family's situation and temperaments and figuring out what is going to work for all of you. Nobody else has to be in your house or your head. If you are uber-grouchy, catatonic, or suicidal, are you any less likely to damage your child than if you do sleep training?

I will definitely look into doing an elimination diet. I considered this at around 4 or 5 months, and I talked to her ped about it. However, she has none of the signs of sensitivity (except night waking, I guess.) She is sometimes fussy during waking hours, but mostly just when she's tired. I figured since she's only getting about 8 hours of sleep at night, she must be tired, too.

I am certainly battling with depression and feel like if I could just get a little more sleep, I'd feel better. I also feel like it's my responsibility to make sure dd gets the sleep she needs and am feeling guilty that I can't help her. Well, only if I nurse all night, which I just can't do.


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Could it be reflux?


----------



## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poiyt* 
But...and I may get flamed for this...I found what worked the best was changing my expectations, and my thoughts (though i still had horrible days/weeks where I would cry and fall apart completely). Obviously my child was one who woke, and nothing i tried was going to change that - I couldnt change HER, but I could change ME. I adapted myself - I accepted the fact that yes, she woke a lot, and yes it was going to be a long haul - but yes, it would be over at some point. I would continue to try things to get her to sleep better, but never had any expectations that it would work. It took a while - but eventually I just accepted it, and stopped resenting it, and my body (I think because I wasnt fighting what was happening) began to learn how to get more restful sleep for that hour before she woke up...I adapted - she didnt.

Why would you get flamed for this? It sounds like a gentle approach and a way for you to deal with it too. I'm trying something similar with my almost 8 month old w/ a little NCSS mixed in.


----------



## poiyt (Jul 6, 2008)

when i tell people that I adjusted MY attitude - I often get that Im unrealistic, that it cant possibly work, and why would I put myself in that situation and NOT do something to fix it...yk? Whereas I looked at it as doing the only thing I COULD do to fix the situation..fixing me was the only thing that worked...(not that I was broken..lol)


----------



## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

So sorry, mama. We've been there, too. DS is just finally starting to sleep longer stretches, so its getting a little easier. It WILL get easier for you, too. In the meantime, I think you need to try to get some consecutive sleep. When I start to feel crazy with sleep deprivation, DH takes over nighttime duty, at least for 4-6 hours. It's hard for him, because DS nurses to sleep, but they eventually do figure it out. It helps me SOOOO much, though, because 4 consecutive hours is sooo much better than 4 hours off and on through the night. One night like that and I feel ok for a couple of weeks. So get yourself some earplugs and set yourself up on the couch or the guestroom or whatever and try to get at least one night. Then you can start from a better place.


----------



## ChampagneBlossom (Feb 5, 2009)

I also advocate adjusting your attitude.

I've had two bad sleepers (well, one really bad sleeper and one that has recently become a bad sleeper) and they really are tough to live with. But with both of mine, it seemed that once they hit a magical mark, they just started sleeping better. It was nothing I did differently. I guess their brain just organized itself one day. My DD is still touch and go, depending on whether or not she's teething. But, and just keep repeating this along with me... "this too shall pass." It really will.


----------



## TinyMama (Sep 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poiyt* 
I adapted myself - I accepted the fact that yes, she woke a lot, and yes it was going to be a long haul - but yes, it would be over at some point. I would continue to try things to get her to sleep better, but never had any expectations that it would work.

This is what I did too. I repeated to myself, "She does not have a sleep problem. I do."









DD is 22mos and still does not STTN, but I can promise you it gets better.

The one thing I did that made a HUGE difference in bedtime battles was to establish a consistent wakeup time--every.single.day. I started at about 9mos, and it took about a week to be effective. Naptime was all over the place/nonexistent, but that initial wakeup really made a difference for us.

Good luck.


----------



## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

The books all say to get her drowsy and put her down, and baby will magically drift off to sleep. This simply IS NOT TRUE FOR ALL BABIES and does not universally work. I promise you. I have a 2.5 year old who is a sleep fighter, and an 8 week old I can put down drowsy and walk away. If I ever tried that with DD1 before the age of 2, she'd never sleep.

What you're doing isn't working for you, OR for her. So you have to initiate a change. What is your goal? Longer sleep? Sleeping without you next to her? Falling asleep more easily on her own? Most of those things will come with time, and time alone.

What I'm saying is, make sure your goals are reasonable. You can't expect her to go to sleep all by herself all of a sudden - she's just not wired that way.

For us, it took a combo of things, and even then we'd have good and bad sleep cycles - a week of good sleep and two weeks of bad, etc.

At 8 months, and up until 15 months, DD and I found a pretty good rhythm this way:

2 hours after waking for the day, it was time for her first nap. 3 hours after waking from that, it was time for her afternoon nap. 4 hours after waking from that, it was bedtime. DD1 pushed that to more like 2.5/3.5/4.5, but you get the idea.

Also, the 5 Ss - shhhing (singing or white noise), sidelying, swaddling, suckling (nipple or pacifier), swaying (any motion) - worked wonders. All 5 at once must usually occur in order to get my kid to give up the fierce fight and give in to her tiredness (even now at 33 pounds and 2 and a half years old - she's more than half my height and I still cradle her in my arms and stand and sway with her and she's usually out like a light. She's just conditioned to know that means sleep time). And not letting her get too tired or overstimulated is also important.

It gets better. It gets worse. Milestones, major developmental leaps, teething, etc. all effect sleep.

DD didn't sleep more than 3 hours at a time until she was 17.5 months old. I've read here that cruddy sleepers usually get better at 18 months or 3 years. It WILL get better eventually!

I'd bet your DD also likes the sling, likes to get out of the house everyday, doesn't transition easily, and has never fallen asleep someplace all on her own - like while playing or whatever. DD is 2 and a half and has NEVER ONCE fallen asleep without me working toward it. Sometimes she'll fall asleep in the car, but she's awake the second car turns off. 2 times in her entire life have I successfully gotten her from asleep in the car to asleep in the house. Even when she was tiny and in the bucket. I had to accept that she was just not the average kid, and that sleep doesn't come easy to her.

DD2? I can shhhh her and rock her for a few minutes (she won't fall asleep nursing) and then tell her it's naptime as I put her down and walk away. TOTALLY different kid, totally different experience with her. She's just wired differently than DD1.


----------



## Katwoman (Apr 15, 2004)

Has she ever been evaluated for reflux? I ask because you mentioned how she pretty much sucks all the time. With both my girls they nursed very frequently because the milk would soothe their raw throats from the acid in the reflux.

My DD2 had it BAD. But we struggled with it because she was "fine" through the day but at night all heck would break loose. I think she would lay down and the reflux stuff would make her uncomfortable and then sleeping was not possible. For her the reflux was made worse by her food allergies. But the thing we struggled with was she would do okay during the day but cry at night. The ped and I would go around and around about how DD2 was trying to control me and the night routine. But I knew it wasn't true.

Now I'm babbling. I guess I'm advocating seriously considering reflux or having her tested for allergies. (Oh! Also, more babbling here, if dust mites bother her she would have more trouble at night because she's laying on them.)

Okay, done now.


----------



## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Mama I can sort of understand where you are coming from here. I had a very high needs baby that left me physically, mentally, and emotionally drained with lack of sleep and lack of time to myself. It gets better and CIO is never necessary, there are many other ways to try and get a child to sleep on their own and to sleep better.

I will also second the replies above that mention trying to see if there is a physical cause of your child's issue with waking up.

I would like to give us all a gentle reminder that we do not advocate CIO in any way on the boards of MDC.


----------



## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

oh, mama








it sounds like you're trying to do wayyyy too much. is there anyway that you can get a mother's helper or something to come play with your 5-year-old and pick up the floors and maybe help cook? so you can get a little nap? a part time job and another kid and a high needs baby is just too much. is there any way in the world that you can cut back on your job hours? or can your dh take the baby out of the house for a few hours on the weekend just so you can get a nap? Or take the baby for a drive or something for an hour every night so you can get some extra babyfree sleep? i have a high needs baby too, and there's absolutely no way that i could have survived doing everything you're taking on right now. i work about 10 hours a week from home right now, and i couldn't handle that until she was more than a year old. it's still a stretch now that she's 20 months old. and she's an only baby.

high needs babies are different. other mamas can have a houseful of kids and work fulltime from home and have spotless houses and still be attentive to their children's every need. you can't do that. your baby is different. you just can't do it all. ask for help. beg for help. your baby's needs matter, but so do yours. CIO isn't a viable option, and I know you know that. It will get better, but in the meantime you need to find a way to get someone to help out so you can get some sleep.

my only other suggestion is to see if maybe she needs some teething relief. babies are teething constantly, and i found that my daughter started sleeping better when i gave her Hyland's teething tablets.


----------



## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nimbus* 
I'll admit right up front, I'm hoping someone will tell me cio is okay. I'm at the end of my rope and out of ideas. I apologize in advance for the length of my post. I need help, but also need to vent.
--
Consequently, I am getting about half a night of sleep in fragments. This has been going on for 8 months. I'm about to crack.
--
Please don't flame me. I need support. I need ideas. I need sleep.

Firstly, wanted to say I'm going on 4.5 yrs of it... I think I've beyond cracked. HAHA. Honestly though, its just time. Once teeth are in, everything gets so much better.

Next, if you can't sleep while nursing, you might want to reanalyze your sleeping space. Do you have enough pillows? I could never sleep while nursing until I got a pillow to wedge behind my back/under my hip. I also have about three pillows above me, one under baby's head/under my arm, one over my arm, and under my head, one to prop that one up.
We also sleep with a HEPA air purifier. The white noise makes all the difference.

If you're considering CIO, please first think about it from your baby's perspective. Right now, she can't communicate except for crying. You don't listen to her cry. She stops crying. Her problem hasn't been solved, so she learns that her problems aren't important. She learns that pain, fear, bad feelings are okay, and nothing can be done about them. As she grows, this message stays with her, under the surface - it affects every relationship she has for the rest of her life.

And if that doesn't convince you, consider that if she were a fully communicative child in the middle of the day, and she were telling you about a bully at school she's afraid of, you'd drop everything to listen & try to help her through it, even if it were right in the middle of something - sleeping or work or whatever, right?

The two scenarios are the same. There's never a good reason to ignore your child trying to communicate with you, even if it isn't convenient. You risk SO MUCH by tuning out your child.

I KNOW where you're coming from. My children are not good sleepers as babies. Some children just aren't. I CAN tell you that as you approach and cross the 2 yr mark, everything starts to get so much better, and by age 2.5, it was like those sleepless nights were a thing of the distant past (of course, I was pregnant again by that time & not sleeping because I had to pee every hour, HAHAHA).

You CAN make it through this. Its just a matter of time. Hang in there. =


----------



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

how old is she? like 9 months?

i too am a "can't sleep with my nipple in someone's mouth" type. i am completely flabbergasted that anyone can. this is why i thanked the heavens when DD started accepting a pacifier at 5 months of age. have you tried a paci? i assume you have...

personally, i would continue trying the other ways of getting her to sleep (lying with her, patting her, singing, whatever that isn't nipple in her mouth) so she can stop needing the nipple in her mouth. if you can't sleep like that, you have to do something else. she'll learn another way to soothe--maybe her thumb. if she cries, she cries--but that's not the same as CIO.

you will get through this!


----------



## laurelg (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm sure you've tried this, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

My DD also likes to fall asleep at the breast. It doesn't bother me, thank goodness, but sometimes she'll have a difficult night - I think an oversupply was to blame, because it has gotten better since I started block feeding.

Anyway, she would nurse for a bit, then get frustrated - I think because she just wanted to comfort nurse but the milk wouldn't stop coming. She'd start fussing, squirming, kicking at me, etc. If I unlatched her, though, she'd cry. I finally realized that sometimes she was just frustrated or stressed and needed to work it out - so I'd nurse her until she got upset, then put her on my chest and bounce her. (I do it while lying flat - I put my hands on her legs or butt and slide her up and down an inch or two on my torso, if that makes any sense.) I have found that talking softly and reasonably to her while I do this helps me stay calm - I generally say something along the lines of "I know you're frustrated right now, and that's okay. It's okay to cry if you need to. I'm not going to leave you, I'm right here." Sometimes she will fall asleep on me like that. Other times she just cries for a few minutes, and then I'll try to nurse her again. It generally only takes one cycle of this for her to fall asleep while nursing the second time.

Also, once she's asleep, she usually doesn't have a problem with me taking my nipple out of her mouth. Sometimes she will start to root again and I think "Aw, crap!" but she just wants to use my boob as a pillow.







Have you tried the Pantley pull-off thing everyone talks about? I haven't actually read her book, but I did find an explanation of the PPO online and it has helped a couple of times when I tried it on DD.


----------



## paulamc (Jun 25, 2008)

My little guy started out as a decent sleeper. He would go 3 to 4 hours many nights with more frequent wakings toward morning. Some nights it was more like 2 to 3. Since about 4 months it feels like he's been waking far, far more often. At least every 2 hours I would guess. I don't know because I don't look at the clock (now that I've replaced the glasses that my corgi chewed up, maybe I'll start looking & taking notes on the times again, LOL).

Until recently there's never been a problem with his needing the nipple in his mouth all the time. He'd wake, we'd nurse a bit, and I'd either remove it when he started to drift off, or he'd spit it out. More recently he's been keeping it there longer and longer, and when I try to get it out his mouth, his mouth is frequently not limp like it used to be, but clamped down to prevent removal. So in sum, I feel like we might be gravitating toward a situation like the one you describe.







:

What we do is I sleep with the baby, and DH sleeps upstairs in the guest room. He definitely needs good sleep to be able to do his work as a university professor. This arrangement actually works better for me too because 1) I have more space to myself on the queen bed with DS and 2) on days when DH works from home he'll often take DS for two or three hours first thing in the morning to let me get some alone sleep. I realize this isn't an option for most couples, but could you work out an arrangement like this with your DH on the weekends to give you a break?

We're about to transition to a queen mattress on the floor and a twin mattress next to it, in what is now the guest room upstairs. (DH will move back downstairs to the current master bedroom, which will become the guest room, or possibly sleep upstairs with us part of the time, depending on how things go.)

I'm sort of hoping that if DS is on his own twin mattress, even if it's right up against my mattress (same height exactly - we'll buy the same mattresses, just different sizes), that he might not wake as often. In the earlier evening before I am asleep he frequently wakes up because I wake him up, reading in bed, shifting around etc... On the other hand, he'll be mobile soon and so he'll pretty much go wherever he wants I suppose.







:

ETA: Oh, just remembered the other thing we've talked about doing. We might try a few times a week having DH try to get her to sleep, by walking him around. He goes to sleep this way in his (or my) arms, but lately we have no luck at all with the transition to the bed. But I think we're going to work on it a bit and just see how it goes. Though you've BTDT, I suppose babies change so fast that one day it might get easier.

I do sympathize with you and wish you luck working things out - hopefully without CIO.


----------



## Nimbus (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes, I knew I wouldn't get the thumbs up for CIO. I know it's not the right thing to do, which is why I haven't done it. I needed to vent, get a little sympathy, read some "I lived through it" stories, and get reminders of why CIO is not recommended. After getting more distance on last night, I'm in a better frame of mind.

Did some research on elimination diets and will be out cutting out dairy, soy, wheat, eggs, corn, and all meats except for turkey.

DD does/did have reflux, which I think is part of what conditioned her to have the (non) sleeping patterns she does. We have a great gastroenterologist and we've discussed her sleep issues. I know her reflux signs (arching, sputtering, coughing, etc.) and the particular cry she has when she's experiencing it, and I'm quite confident that's not at play right now. Also, when she's having reflux problems, her constant nursing is accompanied by a different sucking pattern with swallows of milk. Now, she's falling asleep at the breast and just keeping the suction, but not really 'nursing'.

I'm committed to AP and understand that means both day and night time. I think I'm going to talk to my dh about playing a larger role during the nights in order to preserve my sanity.

Thanks for all your suggestions and encouragement!


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nimbus* 
She'll fall asleep when either dh or I bounce her but wakes up as soon as she's laid down and then needs to be nursed to sleep.

This means you could get some sanity by having your dh bounce her to sleep and then continue to hold her while you sleep for a few hours. Not a permanent solution, but definitely something that'd help.


----------



## bellydance2290 (Dec 22, 2006)

I was having major issues with my dd who is 9 mths today. She would wake up every 30 -45 mins until I came to bed then was up every 1-2 hours and nursed all.night.long. We were miserable. She also rarely took naps longer than 30-45 mins.
I read a ton of books and the most helpful were NCSS, Sleepless in America and The Aware Baby. I did the PPO for probably 2 weeks with her and tried to let her settle herself in my arms without my nipple in her mouth. Next, I stopped breastfeeding to sleep - this has been the biggest help. It wasn't even as hard as I had imagined. It took maybe 3 nights of her crying with my DH (while he held her) and the crying was maybe 30 mins. We also moved her into her crib. We realized that we were all keeping each other up and it just wasn't working to co-sleep anymore. She was about 8.5 months old when we moved her. She also now sleeps on her belly.
She will now sleep for about 3-4 hours at a stretch which means I feed her when she goes to bed around 7 (but she doesn't fall asleep on me) and then before I go to bed (around 10:30) and then again around 2:30-3:00 then when she wakes up for the day around 7:30. I put her in her crib and it takes about 15 mins of her moaning (not crying) for her to go to sleep, but she does it on her own with one of us standing there. If she escalates into a cry, we pick her up. She also takes 1.5-2 hr naps 2x a day now. Daytime and nighttime sleep definitely have a connection - if she doesn't nap well, she doesn't sleep well at night.
I also want to say that I have been off of dairy, soy, corn, tomatoes and gluten for 7 mths now and she still had sleeping issues. It is definitely worth looking into though, esp if she has other signs.
We still have rough nights but now we know that we will be able to get her back to sleep and she sleeps SO MUCH BETTER by herself. She actually asks to go into her crib now. I miss having her in bed with me but I think she needed her own space.
Just know, that there is hope! I was about to lose my mind and now it is so much better for us.


----------



## Belize Caye Family (Oct 22, 2005)

Hi Nimbus,

HUGS!!! I'm right there with you. My ds does this on and off, and I've had my share of bursting into tears at 4am, wondering when I am ever going to sleep again.

I know you got a lot of responses to this, and I didn't read them all, so forgive me if I'm being redundant.

Definitely consider:

-some sort of food allergy or gas. My ds gets upset when we're side-lying nursing for a long time, I tip him up to burp, and he's fine.

-is she hungry? I know you're not supposed to increase solids for the purpose of getting your baby to sleep through the night, but I had to consider that with the amazing amount of exercise my ds gets lately, especially being a new crawler. As far as I understand, the necessary calorie intake for new crawlers skyrockets. He's constantly moving around (chasing the poodle) and I have upped the size of his daily meals by one food cube and he sleeps much more soundly at night between nursing and comfort-nursing sessions.

-getting dh more involved in night time parenting while you sleep on the couch or whatever. My dh counts to ds in Spanish and somehow that gets him back to sleep. Amazing.

Best to you!!!!


----------



## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nimbus* 

She'll fall asleep when either dh or I bounce her but wakes up as soon as she's laid down and then needs to be nursed to sleep.

If this is the case, might she sleep in a swing or something like that? I know it's non-ideal, but it might allow you both to get some needed sleep.

Re. the reflux. Dd also had what we THOUGHT was reflux (it was diagnosed as such). At a year old, after she reacted to her first exposure to wheat, we got her allergy tested and it turned out that she has very severe, extensive food allergies (at a year old, it was maybe 20 foods; now she's down to about a dozen, but most of the big ones: wheat, gluten, soy, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, fish, plus a bunch of others). She did not have most of the signs of a food-allergic infant: no eczema, no abnormal sleep problems, no crankiness after nursing, etc. But I'm pretty sure that what everyone thought was reflux was actually her allergies. So I think an elimination diet is a really good idea. Just be super careful about hidden ingredients in processed foods.

Good luck!


----------



## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

Hi, not sure how old your LO is. I just wanted to share that we could *not* nightwean successfully while I was in the bed (about 12 months). DS has mommy radar and would not be pacified if I was near. I slept in another room for about a week. The first few nights were not pretty, but DH was constantly there and comforting our boy. Eventually DS moved to his own bed, and went from nursing 8-10 times a night to almost STTN (zero to two brief wakings, then feeding after 5:00am).

My child sounds very similar to yours. Very bright, inquisitive, etc. He was super sensitive to me since birth. He was NEVER one of those babies you could just set down and they would be content. No way! I think this just extended to sleeping. If he heard me, he wanted to latch on. My first clue that I might be disrupting his sleep is that he could do a 4 hour stretch without waking before DH and I got into bed with him. Then it was up every hour to 45 minutes.

We were doing great until we went out of town for 10 days, then got back and all 8 molars started coming in at one time. Ugh.


----------



## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

My first was one of those VERY alert and aware babies at birth, and at 4, she's now a very bright, precocious, funny little girl. But that first year plus was HARD. She needed to sleep with the nipple in her mouth, would accept no substitutes, wouldn't easily go down even for a nap without my full and undivided attention and presence, woke frequently to nurse, etc. She sounds very smiliar to your little girl.

She didn't sleep through the night until she was 16 months old. She and I finished a hellish three months of her getting both molars and cuspids, learning to walk, learning to talk (so big developmental milestones), and a growth spurt all at the same time. I think she was so exhausted by the end of it that she nightweaned herself and started sleeping through the night because her body really couldn't handle anything else at that point.

It was really, really hard.

Yes, she did have a milk sensitivity and a little reflux, but those were apparent very early on in her poop and the screaming colic episodes. It can't hurt to look at diet, but honestly, if there's a dietary sensitivity going on, it will most likely show in the diapers, not *just* in sleep patterns. I think the majority of dd's sleep and nursing patterns were just how she was wired. She had a very busy brain and a high need for mama contact.

Two things saved my sanity during that time. One, and I know this has been mentioned before, I adjusted my expectations. I HAD to let go of the resentment and I had to try to stop counting minutes of sleep achieved or lost except in the most general terms (i.e., I tried to be aware of when I wasn't safe to drive because I was too tired, because after a certain point lack of sleep can affect your judgment similar to alcohol). I couldn't be a good parent if I was feeling so angry about being so sleep-deprived, and it wasn't good for me, either.

And second, as soon as dd was ready to spend some solid time with her dadoo, they went out for a few hours at a time. I think this was around 9 months...later than a lot of my friends' babies, but as you well know, I'm sure, every baby has different needs at different times. I would nurse her until she had a full tank and they would go out for 3-4 hours. Sometimes he'd put her in the sling and they'd go on a long walk, sometimes he'd take her for a drive, or go to the library. Wherever, they just had to be out of the house. We tried to do this 2-3 times a week. I was frank with dh. I needed to sleep, in order to be a good parent, in order to stay sane, and yes, I knew I was asking a lot from him given his work schedule, but I was *never* off and this was just one of those times in our lives where he needed to step up in a big way. And he did. I made sure he knew I appreciated his efforts and I was clear that this was a short-term need. Just like I told myself this couldn't possibly last forever, I made sure he knew that, too. He'd go one or two evenings after work and at least once on the weekend, and while they were out, I slept. I still wasn't getting a normal amount of sleep, but it was enough to function.

It does end, but anything you can do short of CIO or drugging your baby to save your sanity in the meantime, do it. If she sleeps in the car, go for long drives and screw the gas budget. Ask a friend to babysit your eldest, take a drive, and nap in a parking lot after she falls asleep. (BTDT.) Recruit help wherever you can so you can grab a nap. Even a couple hours helps. If you can't sleep with her, find ways to sleep while she's awake and entertained by someone else.

*hug* Best of luck.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Just skimmed- but the bouncing made me think- have you tried a hammock?










-Angela


----------

