# hypothetical situation-- expired car seat question



## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Okay, so I really hope I don't get flamed for this, but it's an honest question... I'm not trying to be snarky

If a family had to choose between an expired/used carseat (never been in an accident) or no carseat at all, wouldn't using an expired carseat be safer (if they were using it correctly, of course)?

My question comes from two places, really. The first is that not that long ago, I saw a mama carrying her infant around in a carseat that had to be 20 years old. Now no way was this car seat safe. It didn't even have a 5 point harness. Just 4 straps that met at the chest in a buckle... so no crotch strap. Plus the baby was too big for the seat AND the straps were loose. Now I know she was using it as a carseat and not just a carrier because she was dropping her child off at school and carried the baby out to the car in this thing.

The other place this comes from is the "destroy your carseat before throwing it away" thread.

I completely understand how unsafe it is to use a damaged carseat. So that is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not really talking about the situation of the baby in a 20 year old carseat. What I'm talking about is a family, who for whatever reason can't get a carseat. Would it be safer for them to use a seat that is, say a couple years expired but otherwise in decent condtion... or no carseat at all?

ETA: I know there are charity orgs that can help with carseats... that's why this is hopefully a purely hypothetical situation. But maybe there are families out there who don't have access even to charity donated carseats.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

I would think (as a regular person, not tec or anything) that a properly fitting carseat that is 2-3yrs past exp. date is doable. Decades old or one that just doesn't fit, I wouldn't. Though I guess it also depends on the age. With an infant I would say anything is better than nothing. But I guess you then work with the assumption that being seriously injured is better than death.

I did work a church yardsale where there was a carseat from 1985! - quickly tossed out.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

something is better than nothing.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I think it depends, and unfortunately the things it depends on you can't always know.

Something is better than nothing in some cases, but in other cases the something can be worse.

Added to that, you have to factor in the effects of false security.

I don't think that "something is better than nothing" is a good enough answer, really. Every child that rides in a car should be restrained in a safe seat.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

This is a 10-year-old (so four years expired) Britax. The straps rip out of the shell and strangle the dummy.

Is this likely to happen the week after the printed expiration date? Probably not. Do we know exactly when between six and ten years this happens? No, we don't.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I will agree that all other things being equal 'something IS better than nothing'.

However, it's a total strawman. There are a plethora of options for people who cannot afford a safe seat. There is SOMETHING out there. It might take a little research to find it, but it's out there.

As a parent, I would shut off the cable, the internet, the cell phones, etc, before my kids would ride unsafely in the car, so there is that to consider as well.


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

I think that the actual date of expiry has to err on the side of caution, to protect the manufacturer. Like if the expiry date is six years, the seat will actually be good for 7 or 8. Because if it was actually good for six years, they would make the expiry five years just to cover their butts.

So in a dire situation I would be willing to use an expired seat for several months (NOT years) after expiry if I needed to save up for a new seat or something. But ideally I would know in advance and be able to save up beforehand.

If we couldn't get another seat we would borrow, take public transport, or just stay home. I think the "can't afford it" reason is just an excuse for many, many people. They just don't put carseat safety high on their list, and that is that. We would be cutting off all of the utilities and eating ramen before my kid would be improperly restained in a moving vehicle. I know there are some truly dire situations out there, but there are organizations to help those people. Most people are given gifts from family and friends when expecting a baby - if money is that tight, a carseat (or donations towards a carseat) should be much higher on the list than a baby bathtub, bumbo chair, or even a crib. When there are $50 carseat options, where there is a will, there is a way.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 

If we couldn't get another seat we would borrow, take public transport, or just stay home. I think the "can't afford it" reason is just an excuse for many, many people. They just don't put carseat safety high on their list, and that is that. We would be cutting off all of the utilities and eating ramen before my kid would be improperly restained in a moving vehicle. I know there are some truly dire situations out there, but there are organizations to help those people. Most people are given gifts from family and friends when expecting a baby - if money is that tight, a carseat (or donations towards a carseat) should be much higher on the list than a baby bathtub, bumbo chair, or even a crib. When there are $50 carseat options, where there is a will, there is a way.

I think that some people really aren't understanding the position that people who "can't afford" a new car seat are in.

Some of these families may already be eating ramen, beans and rice, and going without utilities for a few days just to be able to pay rent without scrounging up an extra $50 for a carseat.

Some people don't get "big" gifts from family members when we're expecting a baby, some don't even get baby showers. $50-$70 can be a weeks worth of groceries, a weeks worth of gasoline to get to and from work.

I live in an area where there really isn't a lot of help finding a free/low-cost car seat.
You can get a voucher through the courts if you're caught violating the child passenger laws, or you can get a free seat if you show up at certain car seat inspections, but neither are really easily accessible... especially the latter if you don't happen to speak English.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
I think that some people really aren't understanding the position that people who "can't afford" a new car seat are in.

Some of these families may already be eating ramen, beans and rice, and going without utilities for a few days just to be able to pay rent without scrounging up an extra $50 for a carseat.

Some people don't get "big" gifts from family members when we're expecting a baby, some don't even get baby showers. $50-$70 can be a weeks worth of groceries, a weeks worth of gasoline to get to and from work.

I live in an area where there really isn't a lot of help finding a free/low-cost car seat.
You can get a voucher through the courts if you're caught violating the child passenger laws, or you can get a free seat if you show up at certain car seat inspections, but neither are really easily accessible... especially the latter if you don't happen to speak English.

I see this everyday. It is so sad...Moms who don't eat so their kids can etc. They truly cannot afford car seats, so they use very old ones.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Well yeah, of course something is better than nothing. Putting your kid in a cardboard box and setting it on the seat is better than nothing







There are gazillions of kids out there riding around in expired seats with the straps held together with duct tape, and most of them will fare pretty well in a crash. But some don't, and you shouldn't have to be forced to buy an old, nasty, expired, possibly crashed seat from a yard sale, which is why SafeKids has seats we give out.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Thanks for not flaming me!









I keep thinking about that mama with the 20 year old seat. The school I work at is title 1 and has a very high hispanic population. This mom was hispanic and likely doesn't speak English. I don't know what her financial situation was... but I can see how it might be difficult for her to get a safe seat. Especially considering that I don't know her immigration status, and she may or may not be here legally.

I know there are ways to get free/low cost car seats. But having worked with a variety of families in low income/poverty situations, I can also see the many hurdles one might have to jump to get one. And if someone isn't particularly educated about carseat safety... well, it's a huge delimma.

Part of me thinks that every hospital ought to require parents to take a carseat safety course before they leave the hospital with their children. But then I wonder about the kind of costs this would create (although what is the cost of not doing it?). Plus that doesn't cover people who don't give birth in a hospital. So I don't know what the answer is... but everytime I think of that baby, I get this twisty feeling in my gut.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Hypothetically? No way to buy a seat or get a free one?

It depends on the age of the kid and how old the car seat is, I think.

Newborn baby, 10 year old seat? Probably better than nothing.

4 year old, 15 year old seat? No, I would choose just a seat belt over that. Hell, sticking a pillow under their butt to prop them up so the belt fits better is probably better than a 15 year old harness.

But of course, the best thing is to make free or low-cost seats more available to those who need them. I know it's not always easy for people to get a free one. Our HD is the only place in this area that does it and last month they only had 9 sceneras to give out for the whole county.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

As someone who works specifically to distribute seats to those who 'cannot afford them' I am going to guess that maybe, MAYBE 5% of our giveaways go to truly destitute families.

Very often "Can't afford" means "Don't want to spend the money" because some people consider child restraints to be pesky things required by the law and don't truly comprehend that in an accident they are the difference between life and death.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
As someone who works specifically to distribute seats to those who 'cannot afford them' I am going to guess that maybe, MAYBE 5% of our giveaways go to truly destitute families.

Very often "Can't afford" means "Don't want to spend the money" because some people consider child restraints to be pesky things required by the law and don't truly comprehend that in an accident they are the difference between life and death.

I agree, but it would be tough to weed out the people who truly can't afford it and the ones who just won't bother to cut back and save. Here, you just have to be broke enough to qualify for WIC. That's half the population! I think it would be great if it were income based and you were charged for basic seats on a sliding scale. Truly living in poverty? Free. Just barely qualifying for WIC based on income? Maybe $30 for a scenera or something. We could provide more seats to more families that way.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I'd like to see seats come with programs like Medicaid. If a child is on Medicaid, an age and size appropriate seat should be provided as part of 'routine preventative care'.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
I'd like to see seats come with programs like Medicaid. If a child is on Medicaid, an age and size appropriate seat should be provided as part of 'routine preventative care'.

I think that is a fantastic idea! Along with that, there should be 10 minutes of basic car safety education and in-person carseat instruction.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyactsofcharity* 
I think that is a fantastic idea! Along with that, there should be 10 minutes of basic car safety education and in-person carseat instruction.

They could EASILY afford it if they would quit covering circ!!!!


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Very often "Can't afford" means "Don't want to spend the money" because some people consider child restraints to be pesky things required by the law and don't truly comprehend that in an accident they are the difference between life and death.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're not reaching a signficant part of the population in your area that is truly destitute?

I've known some truly destitute people my entire life, and the ones that have had kids are definitely NOT as stupid as you're portraying the people who "can't afford" seats seem to be.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
something is better than nothing.









:


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
I'd like to see seats come with programs like Medicaid. If a child is on Medicaid, an age and size appropriate seat should be provided as part of 'routine preventative care'.

This is a fantastic idea. I'm a visiting nurse and my home care patients get things like air conditioners covered by medicaid if they have respiratory disease. Also, electric lift recliners if they have debillitating arthritis so something like this is in the realm of possibility.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

I honestly don't know that an ancient, expired (possible recalled) seat is better than nothing.
As you all can see, in the brotax video, the harness rips out and literally garrottes the kid. that kid(if the dummy were a kid) is DEAD. D.E.A.D. Now, even if that kid were only say...2-3 years old, and sitting in a vehicle seat belt with no carseat....i don;t 8know* that they would be dead. they might be..they might have serious internal injuries from an improperky fitting seatbelt..they might have broken some bones, or even flew out of the seatbelt and out of teh car....I honestly don't know.
but waht i DO know?
The kid in the expired Briatx is DEAD, and the kid in just a seatbelt maybe has a chance? even a slim chance is beter than no chance?

so..I actually take extreme umbrage with the statement that "something is better than nothing". I don't think we can say that at ALL, with any kind of certainty.

now...I do think it depends a lot..a seat that is only a few months, maybe even a year or two expired, and not recalled for some gross defect? sure, I think that's certainly the safer choice. A really old seat you don't know anythign about you got at a garage sale, that might have been in an accident, or recalled because, say, it snaps in half durnig a crash...I can't say that that is truly safer than just a vehicle seat belt. I just can't.

*IF* I were in this situation, in this place where donated seats dont exist andt eh family is starving to death, yet has a car, but yet can't afford a seat, I think I woudl probably use the best old/used, etc infant seat for an infant and then switch to whatever old/used booster i could get my hands on, because in a crash, the booster isn't restraining teh child, the vehicle seatbelt is, and those are going to be so much more unlikely to fail than a carseat that is old and expired is.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Hmmm...I wonder what a crash test would look like with a 10 year old rf'ing seat. The harness rips through the ff'ing one, but in a rf'ing seat the whole seat takes the impact...it might fare better. So again, hypothetically, it might be better than nothing if the child is rf'ing, but a booster and seat belt might be better if they are big enough to ff, even if they are only 2 or 3.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

A brand new, incorrectly used seat is just as hazardous as an expired one used correctly.

A problem that I've noticed with car seat use that seems to cross the borders of language, culture and economics is that a lot of people don't bother to actually read the manuals that comes with the car seats, thus they don't realize that it's installed incorrectly, or that the harness isn't being used right, etc.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

This is true -- but a good CPST can fix an incorrect installation. We cannot rejuvenate seats.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
This is true -- but a good CPST can fix an incorrect installation. We cannot rejuvenate seats.









Well, maybe YOU can't, but those of us who know what they are doing seem to be able to


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Well, maybe YOU can't, but those of us who know what they are doing seem to be able to




























ya, chickabiddy, didn't you get your magical wand when you went through training? Mine's purple.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

I think something is better than nothing in most cases.

However I am in the UK and we don't have expiry dates on carseats here as far as I can tell. Carseats don't have a "date of manufacture" or an "expiry date" on them at all. The same brands are sold here as the US. I don't understand how they are "good for life" here (apparently?) and not in the US?


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

ALL carseats have dates of manufacture. It's either stamped onto the plastic or stickered on. They all have them, and they all expire because plastic deteriorates over time.

http://www.childrestraints.co.nz/manufacture-expiry.php

Quote:

All child restraints sold in New Zealand and Australia have a life span on them and this includes seats imported from the United States, *United Kingdom*, China and Australia.


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## MaryJaneLouise (Jul 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I think something is better than nothing in most cases.

However I am in the UK and we don't have expiry dates on carseats here as far as I can tell. Carseats don't have a "date of manufacture" or an "expiry date" on them at all. The same brands are sold here as the US. I don't understand how they are "good for life" here (apparently?) and not in the US?

The laws of physics should be universal







: I think the difference is there is not such an emphasis on the expiration date, as in the US.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
They could EASILY afford it if they would quit covering circ!!!!









: and formula too!


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I think you probably hear more about expiration dates in the US because, well, Americans are the queens of stubborn ingenuity. Why buy a new seat when I have this perfectly good seat my mother used for ME as a baby? Dust it off, it's good as new!

I don't think you see that phenomenon quite as much in other countries


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipmummy* 







: and formula too!

Medicaid doesn't cover formula except in cases of medical necessity. I think you are thinking of the WIC program, and while I don't love the idea of formula, it's there for a reason. There is NO reason for circ. And besides that, WIC wouldn't buddy up with a car seat program...it's strictly a supplemental food program. Sometimes they are both run out of the health department, but they are independent of each other. Not handing out formula wouldn't give a car seat program more money.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
Medicaid doesn't cover formula except in cases of medical necessity. I think you are thinking of the WIC program, and while I don't love the idea of formula, it's there for a reason. There is NO reason for circ. And besides that, WIC wouldn't buddy up with a car seat program...it's strictly a supplemental food program. Sometimes they are both run out of the health department, but they are independent of each other. Not handing out formula wouldn't give a car seat program more money.









Sometimes medicaid won't even cover formula as a medical necessity unless it involves tube feeding, and when the kids it covers get to that point, we're not talking about Enfamil or Similac.

In some states, Medicaid DOESN'T cover circumcision unless it's deemed medically necessary. My sister had her oldest son while on Medicaid in FL, and her then DH was upset that a circ would have cost them $500 out of pocket because Medicaid didn't cover it.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
Sometimes medicaid won't even cover formula as a medical necessity unless it involves tube feeding, and when the kids it covers get to that point, we're not talking about Enfamil or Similac.

In some states, Medicaid DOESN'T cover circumcision unless it's deemed medically necessary. My sister had her oldest son while on Medicaid in FL, and her then DH was upset that a circ would have cost them $500 out of pocket because Medicaid didn't cover it.

Oh I know it doesn't always cover it. Just saying they certainly aren't going to cover it for a healthy 6 month old ya know? Here in ohio circ is still covered and it really ticks me off knowing that anytime they deny something medically necessary for my DD. Like a foreskin amputation is more important that her seizure meds.







(They always do eventually cover stuff, with one exception...her ambubag, but it's still annoying that I have to jump through hoops and at the hospital they are just begging to circ your kid)


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
ALL carseats have dates of manufacture. It's either stamped onto the plastic or stickered on. They all have them, and they all expire because plastic deteriorates over time.

http://www.childrestraints.co.nz/manufacture-expiry.php

I think this is possibly true for carseats sold in NZ that were possibly manufactured? in the UK but I have just taken two Britax carseats apart (like covers off and everything...I was intrigued!) and there is no date of manufacture, or expiry, anywhere on them. I have googled as well and can't find anything UK based that says carseats expire. The only link that pops up is the NZ one you posted.I also found this thread on carseat.org
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=96649

Quote:

Well, I just spoke to Britax UK and they claim that there is no expiration date on their carseats - as long as they were manufactured under current ECER44 regulations.

Frankly, the woman kind of sounded shocked that anyone would suggest that there was an expiration date on carseats. Which I found not terribly reassuring.
I will call Britax myself to check on Monday. (I am now really interested to find out!) Just seems funny that the same companies have different rules for different countries!


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Do the seats have the Manufacture clock pressed into the plastic?


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
Do the seats have the Manufacture clock pressed into the plastic?

No, there is nothing.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

that's weird, I wonder how recalls are issued then? I assume the seats at least have the serial numbers right?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I too am intrigued by the lack of expiry on seats in the UK, that does not make sense to me..

I wanted to note that Medicaid is looking at covering two car seats, a convertible and a booster. There was a study done by CHOP indicating that a car seat program run with Medicaid would be more cost effective than all but two of the vaccines- Hib and MMR. The link is here http://www.chawisconsin.org/Preventi...MACarSeats.pdf


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## medicmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
I'd like to see seats come with programs like Medicaid. If a child is on Medicaid, an age and size appropriate seat should be provided as part of 'routine preventative care'.









Great Idea!


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Spoke to Britax this morning and they confirmed that there is no expiration date on their carseats in the UK. If the plastics in carseats really did disintegrate in 5/6/7 years wouldn't that mean regular setbelts in cars would need replaced after this period too?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
that's weird, I wonder how recalls are issued then? I assume the seats at least have the serial numbers right?

They have serial numbers, just no dates!

I found this article, maybe this explains why some states reccomend changing them so often. It's not that they are suddenly "unsafe"?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

Quote:

There are federal laws regulating safety standards for car seats, but no expiration dates, according to the federal National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Graco Children's Products, one of the largest manufacturers of child restraint seats, which includes everything from newborn carriers to boosters for 6-year-olds, says it does recommend throwing out a car seat after seven years or so.

That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.

"It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing."

For example, in both 1999 and 2002, car seats incorporated new methods of buckling in children and attaching the seat to the car. Although parents can still use car seats with older mechanisms, manufacturers can't sell them.

Also, Mr. Galambos said, as the car seat ages, "some of the history gets lost, such as whether it was in an accident or not."

"Replacement parts get harder to find," he said. "Webbing and such start falling apart."

But, he acknowledged, the seven-year date builds in a pretty hefty buffer zone.

*"We're not seeing any disintegration until a minimum of 10 years*," he said.

In a survey, other major manufacturers, including Cosco, EvenFlo and Safety First, all agreed upon similar expiration dates, Mr. Galambos said.

Despite rumors that float around the playground and the Web, extreme weather has no impact on the life of a car seat, Mr. Galambos said.

One recommendation all experts agree on, however, is that if a car seat is involved in an accident, replace it.
I think I would feel good using a seat as long as it wasn't more than 10 years old, personally. Still think it's funny how the same company has such different recommendations for different countries!


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Maybe carseats disintegrate faster in the US than the UK because the US actually gets a summer every year, and it's the extra sunshine that wears out the seat? She says only semi jokingly.

And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

Yes. Carseats don't need to cost $250 to be safe. While it wouldn't meet best practice recommendations, it would be legal and meet minimum standards and be far safer than using an expired seat to use a $70 Safety 1st Avenue from birth until it's outgrown at about age 3.5-4, and then a $50 Graco Turbobooster to seatbelt age. That's about $120 total, or about $1 per month.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Maybe carseats disintegrate faster in the US than the UK because the US actually gets a summer every year, and it's the extra sunshine that wears out the seat? She says only semi jokingly.









It could be true....

Quote:

And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.
Just going by the op, but say you had a 6 year old Britax carseat, which you knew has never been in an accident and had no faults, why not use it if it still safe? It seems kind of wasteful to buy another one if the one you have is perfectly good yk? Why do Britax tell their UK customers one thing and their US ones another? I don't think we have some speshul plastic here that lasts longer, so why the different recommendations, especially if they are not mandated?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I guess the question is whether it's still safe. It's legal -- and okayed by most carseat manufacturers -- to put a child forward-facing at 366 days and 20.1 pounds. It's not safe. It may be legal to use a seven-year-old Britax. I don't think it's safe. I'd rather have a child in a new Graco than a seven-year-old Britax any day.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I guess the question is whether it's still safe. It's legal -- and okayed by most carseat manufacturers -- to put a child forward-facing at 366 days and 20.1 pounds. It's not safe. It may be legal to use a seven-year-old Britax. I don't think it's safe. I'd rather have a child in a new Graco than a seven-year-old Britax any day.

Yeah but it's not mandated in either country so why the different recommendations? From the NYT article I linked earlier, it seems like most carseat manufacturers believe carseats are "safe" for at least 10 years. And reasons to get a new one are to take advantage of new innovations, like side impact protection say, not because the old ones are unsafe. And some new seats don't have side impact protection, so maybe you would be better off with the old one that does?

Is there any data about this? (apart from you tube videos!). I think if it were really unsafe, Britax would be telling ALL their customers the same thing.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

A lot of the time they CAN'T. More than just a few people drive around with no license, no insurance, and a car that barely runs that was handed down to them by a family member. They scrimp for $5 a week to get enough gas to get to the grocery store. If there was such thing as good public transportation most places in this country, maybe it wouldn't be an issue, but good PT is usually limited to bigger cities.

So, it's not as simple as "Well, you managed to afford the $2000 for your reliable and legal transportation, what's $40 more?". They may have spent their only $150 on a junk car and $40 more IS an issue.

I'm driving my mom's old car that she paid $250 for 6 years ago. It only runs still because my step-dad is a mechanic and he doesn't ask me to pay him. I'm ashamed to say I've even driven with no insurance when I couldn't afford the bill and it lapsed (it's not like they give you a grace period). Thankfully, I've never been in a situation where I didn't have a car seat, but only because I'm *extremely* aware of the importance of a good, non-expired seat. I can barely keep my electric on, let alone go drop $40 on....anything. The only reason I was able to get DD her my ride was because of charity.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

This isn't necessarily data, but it's all I have to share right now. I have taken >10-year-old seats out of cars. I see the stress marks (not always visible with the cover on). I can *feel* the difference -- seats are stiffer when they're usually a little bendy, or bendy when they're usually stiff.

I will also say that I really don't believe Britax or any other company truly puts our kids' best interests first. They are businesses. If no other UK company puts expiry dates on carseats, no one wants to be the first, because they don't want the perception that their seats are more poorly made.

I don't think that seats go poof at 6 years and 1 day, but I don't think 10-year-old seats are safe (that NYT article is four years old, by the way, and even they acknowledge a 10-year lifespan).


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

*"We're not seeing any disintegration until a minimum of 10 years," he said.*

Does a seat have to disintegrate to fail? I mean, completely breaking apart, harness ripping out, ect on impact is pretty severe failure. Less severe failure (like the plastic bending too much if not necessarily breaking) would happen earlier wouldn't you think? I wouldn't want my seats to fail at ALL, ya know?


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
I too am intrigued by the lack of expiry on seats in the UK, that does not make sense to me..

I wanted to note that Medicaid is looking at covering two car seats, a convertible and a booster. There was a study done by CHOP indicating that a car seat program run with Medicaid would be more cost effective than all but two of the vaccines- Hib and MMR. The link is here http://www.chawisconsin.org/Preventi...MACarSeats.pdf


This is great! Now if they put it into effect let's hope the do sceneras and turbos and not comfortsports and cosco travelers.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

At a net cost of $32 per child, I'll bet it's a backless booster.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I donated more than one used seat to my local shelter. Granted, these seats had a far amount of useful life left but the director came right out and said they will take recently expired seats because their need so great. I see it everyday, unrestrained kid in cars. There is no pulbic transportation where I live so options are limited for families living in extreme poverty.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
This is great! Now if they put it into effect let's hope the do sceneras and turbos and not comfortsports and cosco travelers.










I know, right? That is great news, though. Considering the number one killer of US children's deaths is car accidents, and the vast majority of those deaths could be prevented by a properly used child restraint, it seems public health has a vested interest in making sure everyone, not just those who can afford it has access to a seat.

It annoys me. We have Graco Turboboosters, (high back and backless), Apexes, and Titans for giveaways. We're pretty liberal about how we hand them out. Basically, if you show up with a kid and a car, and there's something not ideal about your seat (or you don't have one!) we'll give you a new one, no questions asked, no charge. But that is RARE. Most coalitions simply don't have the funds to be that generous.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
I know, right? That is great news, though. Considering the number one killer of US children's deaths is car accidents, and the vast majority of those deaths could be prevented by a properly used child restraint, it seems public health has a vested interest in making sure everyone, not just those who can afford it has access to a seat.

It annoys me. We have Graco Turboboosters, (high back and backless), Apexes, and Titans for giveaways. We're pretty liberal about how we hand them out. Basically, if you show up with a kid and a car, and there's something not ideal about your seat (or you don't have one!) we'll give you a new one, no questions asked, no charge. But that is RARE. Most coalitions simply don't have the funds to be that generous.

At our HD, for a scenera or combo seat you have to take a 2 hour class and learn to install them. They hand out backless boosters without a class. I think it helps weed out the people who really need them from those who don't. I mean, if you don't really *need* one you don't want to be inconvenienced by a class right? And they are really nice up there and will try to work with you to find a class you can fit in your schedule.

Only problem is, they never seem to have enough...there's a waiting list.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
At a net cost of $32 per child, I'll bet it's a backless booster.

Maybe not, if they buy wholesale...


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I've seen the wholesale price lists available to coalitions, and I still suspect that $32 will likely be convertible plus backless booster. I hope they are able to make provisions for families whose cars don't have adequate head support in back.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

I have the same query. It costs as much as a Cosco Scenera every time I fill our tank.

And if we've got dirt-poor people living in places where they HAVE TO have personal transportation to meet the necessities of life, then we've got other problems, you know? We've got to do something about the WalMarts beating out the mom-and-pops that people could walk to, about the pillaging of transit funds to fix roadways that *should be* paid for by auto use taxes, and about the mobility issues in general that prevent people from "voting with their feet" and moving when they want to.

People who "have to" drive and can't afford even $40 for a carseat that will last several years are a symptom of a much, much bigger problem.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Maybe carseats disintegrate faster in the US than the UK because the US actually gets a summer every year, and it's the extra sunshine that wears out the seat? She says only semi jokingly.

And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

bandgeek alrady prestented one scenario. anotehr would be people that don't own a car, yet occasionally need a ride from friends. Or they borrow someone's car. They may not have 40 dollars to put towards a seat they will only use occasionally.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
bandgeek alrady prestented one scenario. anotehr would be people that don't own a car, yet occasionally need a ride from friends. Or they borrow someone's car. They may not have 40 dollars to put towards a seat they will only use occasionally.

In that case, it seems entirely feasible to avoid taking the baby in a car, since clearly they have transportation alternatives most of the time.

Either you think it's important, or you don't. Doesn't change the physics; it's just how you choose to gamble.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
In that case, it seems entirely feasible to avoid taking the baby in a car, since clearly they have transportation alternatives most of the time.

Either you think it's important, or you don't. Doesn't change the physics; it's just how you choose to gamble.


No - I think for some people, they really cannot afford a car seat. I was replying to someone saying if people can afford a car, then why can't they afford a carseat.

What about a baby that needs to go to the doctor(semi-emergent) but is not in need of an ambulance? I could see someone without a car taking a ride from a friend in that case.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Tough and unpleasant choices but it's a good and educational discussion. Using any car seat, despite being old and expired, is always better than using nothing. But it's tough call when to "allow" this. There usually is a way around not using car seats this way but that has more to do with habits of a parent and priorities. Like some people have mentioned, not using car seats is often part of a larger problem. There is a reason why traffic accidents sadly are the number one killer of children in US.

What happens with an expired car seat? Nothing much happens and despite what many seem to believe, the plastic does not disintegrate for a very long time. But it's not always a good idea to discuss this openly since it may lead to parents developing bad (even worse) habits and having less respect for what manufacturers say.

Does plastic in car seats become unsafe right after expiry? Of course not. Should you still respect manufacturer recommendations. Definitely. Plastic in a regular car seat will last for a very long time and has nothing to do with expiry dates. Examples would be car seats in Sweden (or Europe) for example. There is no expiry dates on infant seats or rear facing 55 bls car seats. This is despite Swedes being fanatical about car seat safety (rear facing to age 4 is one example)

It's recommended not to use an infant seat in Sweden longer than 5 years and a rear facing 55 lbs no longer than 10 years. This has nothing to do with the plastic. And this is by the way the same plastic used in US seats. Some of the car sets share the same frame. Experts in the field say (unofficially) that 15-20 years is no issue for the plastic.

Why should we not use car seat for a very long time? The longer time passes the less we know about history of the seat. The seat might have several different owners and we don't know how it's been treated. It's also difficult to find spare parts if needed and those manuals are often long gone


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 

And if a family can afford a car (any car), and gas, and insurance, and a license, and maintenance, why can't they afford a car seat? I'm not meaning to sound snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

It's entirely possible that a family that genuinely can't afford a car seat are borrowing an extra car belonging to a family member, or they bought the car long ago, or they bought a cheap car. Older cars cost less to insure (liability only on our previous minivan, a 91 Toyota Previa, was $22/month). The very same Toyota Previa cost about $70/year to register.

A drivers license here in my state (CA) only requires renewal once every 5 years, and it's only $28.

My sister has a really tight budget, and sometimes she'll only put what she can afford in the tank for gas, and hope it lasts the week. It was very much the same for my parents when I was growing up.

For people like my sister and my parents, if their car breaks down and they can't afford it, they don't get it fixed until they CAN afford it, or they call in favors from other family members.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
While it wouldn't meet best practice recommendations, it would be legal and meet minimum standards and be far safer than using an expired seat to use a $70 Safety 1st Avenue from birth until it's outgrown at about age 3.5-4, and then a $50 Graco Turbobooster to seatbelt age. That's about $120 total, or about $1 per month.

$70 for the first seat can be a pretty big hit to the budget. I know quite a few people who don't have that kind of wiggle room in their budget. Layaway would be a good option for something like this though, if someone is lucky enough to live near somewhere that offers layaway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
A lot of the time they CAN'T. More than just a few people drive around with no license, no insurance, and a car that barely runs that was handed down to them by a family member. They scrimp for $5 a week to get enough gas to get to the grocery store. If there was such thing as good public transportation most places in this country, maybe it wouldn't be an issue, but good PT is usually limited to bigger cities.

So, it's not as simple as "Well, you managed to afford the $2000 for your reliable and legal transportation, what's $40 more?". They may have spent their only $150 on a junk car and $40 more IS an issue.

I'm driving my mom's old car that she paid $250 for 6 years ago. It only runs still because my step-dad is a mechanic and he doesn't ask me to pay him. I'm ashamed to say I've even driven with no insurance when I couldn't afford the bill and it lapsed (it's not like they give you a grace period). Thankfully, I've never been in a situation where I didn't have a car seat, but only because I'm *extremely* aware of the importance of a good, non-expired seat. I can barely keep my electric on, let alone go drop $40 on....anything. The only reason I was able to get DD her my ride was because of charity.









That was very much the way my parents got by when I was a teenager. My parents drove junkers that were given to them by family or bought for dirt cheap, Dad did the repair work himself whenever possible, often they had no insurance, and at least once a month we'd end up scrounging the couch cushions and under the washer for enough change to buy gas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Caneel* 
I donated more than one used seat to my local shelter. Granted, these seats had a far amount of useful life left but the director came right out and said they will take recently expired seats because their need so great.

When my sister's kids were tiny, my sister was so poor that she couldn't afford car seats. My parents bought her 2, I gave her 3 "hand me downs" from my kids, she got another hand me down from her then SIL, and she only had to buy 1 booster.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I have the same query. It costs as much as a Cosco Scenera every time I fill our tank.

And if we've got dirt-poor people living in places where they HAVE TO have personal transportation to meet the necessities of life, then we've got other problems, you know?

People who "have to" drive and can't afford even $40 for a carseat that will last several years are a symptom of a much, much bigger problem.

Even in places where there IS decent public transit, if you're working weird hours, sometimes public transit isn't an option.

My dad spent 3 years biking 18-36 miles a day to work because buses didn't run early enough for him to make it to work on time (He worked a 6:20-3:30 schedule). His car had been totaled in an accident that wasn't his fault (he did have insurance at the time, but the other driver didn't), and we didn't have the money to replace his car. I had to give him my bike for that. Most days one of his coworkers with a pickup truck who lived nearby gave him a ride home.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
$70 for the first seat can be a pretty big hit to the budget. I know quite a few people who don't have that kind of wiggle room in their budget. Layaway would be a good option for something like this though, if someone is lucky enough to live near somewhere that offers layaway.

Just as a point of information, the Safety 1st Avenue is sold at Sears and KMart. Both offer layaway. I think it's about $85 at those stores, or $12 each month for 7 months. It fits average children from birth and can get average children to an age where they can use a highbacked booster (legally, if not best of best practices, but certainly better than an expired seat). A highbacked booster can be $50ish and parents could start laying it away when child hits 30#.

I am truly not unsympathetic to financial constraints, and I understand how poverty can change priorities, but it doesn't change the fact that old seats (not going to quibble here about the difference between 5 years 11 months and 6 years one month) are not safe.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Around here they already give out free carseats (Scenera's) and boosters (not sure of model). If your eligible for WIC, your eligble for a carseat through the health department. They just make you watch a video on proper installation and then help you get it into your car good and tight - its actually how I learned about proper installation of carseats!!


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Just as a point of information, the Safety 1st Avenue is sold at Sears and KMart. Both offer layaway. I think it's about $85 at those stores, or $12 each month for 7 months. It fits average children from birth and can get average children to an age where they can use a highbacked booster (legally, if not best of best practices, but certainly better than an expired seat). A highbacked booster can be $50ish and parents could start laying it away when child hits 30#.

I am truly not unsympathetic to financial constraints, and I understand how poverty can change priorities, but it doesn't change the fact that old seats (not going to quibble here about the difference between 5 years 11 months and 6 years one month) are not safe.

I'm not disputing the fact that "expired" seats are not as safe as a newer one, I'm just pointing out that even the cheapest convertible and bucket seats on the market are not always easy to work into your budget if you're poor. Some posters on this thread keep acting like $50 shouldn't be a big deal, but sometimes it is.

Not everyone who is "poor" qualifies for public aid that would make getting a free/subsidized car seat easy. I know quite a few families that make just a little too much for public aid, but barely enough to survive. Sometimes you have to make hard choices knowing that it's less than ideal/safe, in order to keep a roof over your head and food on the table for your family. Sometimes it's a choice between a new seat for baby, or medication for another child, or a car repair, or having to buy new shoes because the ones your kids are wearing are literally disintegrating on their feet.

What really bugs me is that other posters in this thread really just don't "get" that some of these families really have had to make some hard decisions about whether to buy a new seat or not, and just assumed that a lot/most of these families just don't care.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

I think that some people really aren't understanding the position that people who "can't afford" a new car seat are in.

Some of these families may already be eating ramen, beans and rice, and going without utilities for a few days just to be able to pay rent without scrounging up an extra $50 for a carseat.

Some people don't get "big" gifts from family members when we're expecting a baby, some don't even get baby showers. $50-$70 can be a weeks worth of groceries, a weeks worth of gasoline to get to and from work.
yep


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

Older cars cost less to insure
and some people don't have car insurance. (obviously illegal...)

and some people don't have a current drivers license.


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## bcblondie (Jun 9, 2009)

I think the video of the strap breaking and stranging the child is proof that sometimes no seat is better than expired seat. Very interesting thread, ladies.

It's funny because I was discussing this with SIL just 2 days ago!! (She's due with number 5 in a few weeks, and her old seat is expired.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Well yeah, of course something is better than nothing. Putting your kid in a cardboard box and setting it on the seat is better than nothing









Hypothetically speaking, as this is a desert-island scenario for most of us here, would not a box on the floor of the backseat be better?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
What really bugs me is that other posters in this thread really just don't "get" that some of these families really have had to make some hard decisions about whether to buy a new seat or not, and just assumed that a lot/most of these families just don't care.

My argument is not with people who really, truly, cannot afford $2/week during pregnancy and $0.50/week for the first three years (Avenue at birth, HBB Turbobooster when that's outgrown). I do hope those people find a way to get in touch with their local or state SafeKids coalition, though, because most decent SafeKids leaders will try to get those kids in seats.

My argument is with: seats don't really expire or they're good for ten years (they do and they're not); something is better than nothing (it isn't always); people need a $100 infant seat followed by a $250 Britax to be safe so why bother (they don't, and safety can be affordable for many families).


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Tough and unpleasant choices but it's a good and educational discussion. Using any car seat, despite being old and expired, is always better than using nothing. But it's tough call when to "allow" this. There usually is a way around not using car seats this way but that has more to do with habits of a parent and priorities. Like some people have mentioned, not using car seats is often part of a larger problem. There is a reason why traffic accidents sadly are the number one killer of children in US.

What happens with an expired car seat? Nothing much happens and despite what many seem to believe, the plastic does not disintegrate for a very long time. But it's not always a good idea to discuss this openly since it may lead to parents developing bad (even worse) habits and having less respect for what manufacturers say.

Does plastic in car seats become unsafe right after expiry? Of course not. Should you still respect manufacturer recommendations. Definitely. Plastic in a regular car seat will last for a very long time and has nothing to do with expiry dates. Examples would be car seats in Sweden (or Europe) for example. There is no expiry dates on infant seats or rear facing 55 bls car seats. This is despite Swedes being fanatical about car seat safety (rear facing to age 4 is one example)

It's recommended not to use an infant seat in Sweden longer than 5 years and a rear facing 55 lbs no longer than 10 years. This has nothing to do with the plastic. And this is by the way the same plastic used in US seats. Some of the car sets share the same frame. Experts in the field say (unofficially) that 15-20 years is no issue for the plastic.

Why should we not use car seat for a very long time? The longer time passes the less we know about history of the seat. The seat might have several different owners and we don't know how it's been treated. It's also difficult to find spare parts if needed and those manuals are often long gone

Thanks for your post. What you said is pretty much the same as I have been able to find. Do you know why the same manufacturers have different expiry dates for (basically)the same seats in different countries though? Taking Britax as an example, they say their seats don't expire at all in Europe, expire in 10 years in New Zealand and then for some reason, only last 5/6 years in the US? This is what is not making sense to me. If it were really true that carseats just after 6 years or so, shouldn't they also reccomend seatbelts and isofix/latch connections are also replaced after the same period?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
My argument is with: seats don't really expire or they're good for ten years (they do and they're not.

I think this is just your opinion though, there doesn't seem to be any data to back that up.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I think this is just your opinion though, there doesn't seem to be any data to back that up.

It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of most US-based carseat manufacturers, who do not consider their seats safe to use after six years.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of most US-based carseat manufacturers, who do not consider their seats safe to use after six years.

Well yeah, but those same manufacturers seem to have very different "opinions" depending what country they are in. This doesn't make sense. If seats really become unsafe after 6 years, Graco, Britax etc are setting themselfes up for large lawsuits in Europe/NZ/OZ by telling their US customers one thing and the rest another.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Hypothetically speaking, as this is a desert-island scenario for most of us here, would not a box on the floor of the backseat be better?

Yes


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Well yeah, but those same manufacturers seem to have very different "opinions" depending what country they are in. This doesn't make sense. If seats really become unsafe after 6 years, Graco, Britax etc are setting themselfes up for large lawsuits in Europe/NZ/OZ by telling their US customers one thing and the rest another.

You're right. I don't know why there are different standards for different countries. I don't know if seats that would fail in the US at 6 years would pass in the UK at 10 years. I just don't know.

I do know that US manufacturers don't consider their seats safe to use past the expiry dates. I wish I knew why. I wish I knew the exact tests and criteria. I don't. And without that data, I'm just not comfortable second-guessing their statements that the seats are not safe to use after expiry.


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