# 123 Magic ?



## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Just curious what your thoughts on this method are?

We have two very different children and need to find a way to parent the more challenging child.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I dislike principles in 123 Magic. It's yet another "how to" manual for excersising control over other human beings.

I do not believe that "controlling" = "parenting"

My view on parenting are very close to what's expressed in GD Guidelines

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.
123 Magic does not promote gentle guidance. It provides the "techniques" for making children do as we say. Not for me.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
123 Magic does not promote gentle guidance. It provides the "techniques" for making children do as we say.

I agree, but this is what my dd needs. My son needs guidance. My daughter needs gentle control, at least where she is now. My problem is can you do both fairly?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I haven't liked anything I've read about it. I'm suspicious of any "technique" that claims to be "magic" when it comes to building a relationship of love and respect with our kids.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkingirl71* 
I agree, but this is what my dd needs.

Can you please explain what led you to believe she "needs" to be controlled by external forces?

I am a big believer in learning/teaching SELF-controll, otherwise I see that people will grow up *needing* somebody to provide that external controll (As was admitted to me by my DH)

Is there something that makes you believe that your DD is incapable of learning self-controll? (as of course I do not know the details of your family life or any health/psycological issues your DD may be facing)


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I think, like any tool, there are contexts in which it works and contexts in which it doesn't. I used it for about 8 months when my dd was 2.5-3 years old and it worked well as a sort of introductory vehicle for providing guidance and reinforcing what is and is not acceptable in our family. I haven't used it now for many months.

What I liked about it was it gave me a way to calmly correct my child's behavior when otherwise I might have flown off the handle and yelled or something like that. 123 Magic helps parents to state, matter-of-factly and without lecturing, exactly what behavior is unacceptable and why. It gives the child a chance to think about the parent's perspective and to make a decision about how they choose to behave. No matter how they choose, they know ahead of time what the result will be. So there's no guesswork, no anger, nothing that is affected by one's mood at the time or the setting, etc. It's consistent and fair.

We always did the 'timeout' portion of the method (which we only needed for the first few days we tried it, after that, getting to "2" was all that was needed) in a place where she could see us and interact with us. We were not harsh or rejecting; indeed, we often chatted casually with her while she sat in her timeout spot for 2 minutes. When she was done, she resumed whatever activity we were doing at the time, no lectures, no apologies.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

It's a strategy...I don't think it's a complete parenting philosophy. If your bent is to be noncoercive and punishment-free, it won't sit well at all. As presented in the book that I read, it does involve time out, and it is based on parental authority and power. If you're trying to move away from yelling, arguing, spanking, I think it can be a good tool.

We do a modified version at times, where the 1-2-3 is more of a game/race, and ds often responds well to that. To the extent that when I ask him to do something, he'll sometimes say "count to one, mommy." For us, the endpoint of the 1-2-3 is either willing compliance or my assisting with/insisting on the completion of the request, not so much time out.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom* 
It gives the child a chance to think about the parent's perspective and to make a decision about how they choose to behave.

I actually believe that it does quite the opposite. It stops the child from seeing ANY perspective other than their own "Oh-oh, on count of 3 *I* am going to be punished"

At this point they think about *themselves* only and will modify their behaviour in the name of self-preservation, not because they all of a sudden had the epiphany of how wrong they were

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom* 
No matter how they choose, they know ahead of time what the result will be.

Again, I don't think it's a "true" choice. "You either 'choose' to do what I say or 'choose' to go to the time-out"&#8230; Yes, it might prompt some kids to engage in the power struggle and still go to the time out, but what is learned?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
I actually believe that it does quite the opposite. It stops the child from seeing ANY perspective other than their own "Oh-oh, on count of 3 *I* am going to be punished"

At this point they think about *themselves* only and will modify their behaviour in the name of self-preservation, not because they all of a sudden had the epiphany of how wrong they were

Again, I don't think it's a "true" choice. "You either 'choose' to do what I say or 'choose' to go to the time-out"&#8230; Yes, it might prompt some kids to engage in the power struggle and still go to the time out, but what is learned?


So I take it you have used 123 Magic for some amount of time in order to have such an informed decision about how children will react to it? Or are you arguing purely in theory? Have you personally seen 123 Magic used according to the way in which it is described in the book?

Certainly, some children may react to it the way you describe. In theory. Not all, though.

Also, for me, I don't necessarily need or want my children to have an epiphany about "how wrong they were". Sometimes I just want them to stop. throwing. those blocks.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

If you perform a search within this forum, there are extensive discussions on this book.

IME, esp. if you have a more challenging child, it's most helpful to attempt to focusing on discovering the underlying needs rather than simply addressing the manifestations of those unmet needs. It's more of a preventative approach rather than reactive.

How old is your dd? Are there any other books that you've found helpful or interesting?


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
If you perform a search within this forum, there are extensive discussions on this book.

IME, esp. if you have a more challenging child, it's most helpful to attempt to focusing on discovering the underlying needs rather than simply addressing the manifestations of those unmet needs. It's more of a preventative approach rather than reactive.

How old is your dd? Are there any other books that you've found helpful or interesting?

Thanks! To respond you your question and also Irinam's, my dd is 2. She is adopted and has some serious special needs (mostly medical). Her behavior can be very dangerous, frustrating and agressive. So we are in the tricky spot of attaching to her while trying to keep her and her brother safe. We have some ideas about underlying problems, but we are still trying to work out others.


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

I haven't read the book, but I do count to three and tell DD something like, "I'm going to count to three and then I'll help you get into your carseat." Usually, she's in her seat by the time I reach 2. She loathes the idea of me helping her do anything! There is no contingent punishment, just usually the choice of her correcting her behavior on her own, or me helping her correct her behavior. I'm not sure if this would work for you, but I have found that DD responds very well to a nice slow count. Works well with things like getting off of furniture, coming to the dinnertable, getting into her carseat and stuff like that.


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

I practiced 1,2,3 Magic for a while, and found that they will always wait until I get to 3 to stop the offending behavior. It wasn't effective for us.

Instead, I would recommend Love and Logic. It teaches you to parent with empathy and to let your child learn from their mistakes...NOT by you controlling them. I'm sure some Moms on MDC will disagree with this method because it involves time-outs, but it seems to be working for us. We took a 3 week course to learn the methods, but they have the books as well that are very informative.

www.loveandlogic.com


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

In 123 Magic, the counting is only used for stop behaviors. They provide other ideas for starting behaviors.

I think there is a misconception out there that 123 Magic means that you count to 3 for everything and that the only outcome is timeout. There are lots of other tools in the book besides timeout and counting.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

pumpinkgirl--Ah, two









Have you posted in our Adoption Forum yet for opinions from mamas who have BTDT? It must be extra-challenging for everyone under these circumstances







If I remember, there are quite a few families who have children w/medical issues that would prob. be a great source of support and encouragement for you. Totally not trying to shoo you away from posting here as well


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Two seems way too young for time outs even if you agree with them. I've seen it implemented the way they describe. Kids stop at 2 to avoid punishment.

I've also seen the faces of even unrelated kids running around at a park when a mom starts to count. Panic.

I know that 1,2, 3 Magic does not promote spanking now, but the "choice" arguement does remind of recently hearing about a mom ask her two year old if she wanted a spanking for putting her shoes on the right feet. Guess if she didn't have the "appropriate" behavior, she was "choosing" a spanking?

I think it's weird. At two, I do a lot of picking up and walking around while we talk in response to dangerous behaviors. I don't count on *any* system to provide impulse control.

I promise, they do learn to control their impulses. This too shall pass.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

"There are lots of other tools in the book besides timeout and counting."

I've read the book and I disagree. There is some tacked on infommation in the back of the book about family meetings and such but it is in my opinion a little too little and a little too late.

The one positive thing I see with 123 Magic is that it can be helpful for parents who generally struggle with consistancy to start to figure out how to pay attention more consistantly to behaviors.

My main objection to the book is that I find the language paints a very oppositional picture of the parent child relationship. That isn't what we wanted for our family and have seen what works best is to work together. I find very little teaching in this book compared to many other books about positive discipline. There isn't any acknowledgement of the need to look at the underlying causes for behavior. So, for example if the child is refusing to put on their shirt and pitching a fit about it, it do it my way, or I'm counting and you are in time out. There isn't an emphasis on learning how to help the child identify the problem and solve it, which is ultimately what leads to better behavior and a more functional life.

For a child who is special needs and struggling I would suggest instead reading the book The Explosive Child as a starting point.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I think it's weird. At two, I do a lot of picking up and walking around while we talk in response to dangerous behaviors. I don't count on *any* system to provide impulse control.

I promise, they do learn to control their impulses. This too shall pass.

My husband and were just talking last night about how we used to believe this







My little girl either needs more to keep her safe until she learns impulse control, or it is possible that impulse control will always be a problem for her. As of now, her behavior is dangerous and out of control. And we have two two year olds, so that complicates things.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
My main objection to the book is that I find the language paints a very oppositional picture of the parent child relationship. That isn't what we wanted for our family and have seen what works best is to work together. I find very little teaching in this book compared to many other books about positive discipline. There isn't any acknowledgement of the need to look at the underlying causes for behavior. So, for example if the child is refusing to put on their shirt and pitching a fit about it, it do it my way, or I'm counting and you are in time out. There isn't an emphasis on learning how to help the child identify the problem and solve it, which is ultimately what leads to better behavior and a more functional life.

I am curiuos, have you seen the video? The reason I ask is that I came away from watching the video thinking the "system" was about removing conflict so you can be a family. It is parent centered, but still about working together.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

We were a 1,2,3 Magic family for a couple years. When we had an infant and 2 year old, I loved it. But lately, I'm wondering if it didn't cause as many problems as it solved. For my 2 year old, I liked that when she started to get worked up, I would count her and she would pull herself together before she had a full-blown tantrum (she would respond to a 1-- she wants to please us). However, as she's gotten older, counting just makes her mad, because it doesn't acknowledge the emotions behind her behavior. I can't help but wonder if doing a LOT more talking about what was going on inside her when she was getting upset at 2, if she wouldn't have an easier time controlling herself now. The key flaw in 1,2,3 Magic, IMHO is that it assumes that kids misbehave to bother/manipulate their parents. It definitely did get my kids in the habit of listening to me, which is phenomenally helpful. I imagine you can do that with gentle discipline too, but since I've never tried GD with a toddler, I have a lot of trouble visualizing how it works.

So, I don't know whether to recommend it or not. It did give me tools that helped me avoid spanking and got us through a difficult period, but I don't think the method is ideal.

HTH!

ZM


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
We were a 1,2,3 Magic family for a couple years. When we had an infant and 2 year old, I loved it. But lately, I'm wondering if it didn't cause as many problems as it solved. ZM

Thank you







This is very helpful information!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

pumpkingirl,

I was thinking about you today







I wonder if you might not get some really excellent advice over in the Special Needs forum....simply because many of the families have medical as well as emotional, situational and other challenges that are quite simply way beyond the scope of "basic GD"...and these other factors weigh heavily (physical safety, for one) which might be specifically addressed with mamas who have a real-world handle on this


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