# I think we are going to do sleep training. Is it really that bad?



## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

We have a 4 month old and have been going with the flow, only adjusting things that become problems. I co-sleep for most of the night, but like her to go down before I get to bed and then have a few hours to stretch out, read, and cuddle with my husband before she comes into bed with me (she is in a co-sleeper).

Around 2 1/2 months she stopped nursing to sleep and dh has been wearing her down in the Moby (starting at 8pm) and then putting her in the co-sleeper until she woke up around 12 -2. At about 3 1/2 months old she started waking up about 30 mins after he put her down and won't fall back asleep unless I take her into bed and nurse her. (She hasn't even been staying asleep if I nurse her and then move her to the co-sleeper.) I know there is a 4 month sleep regression, so we are going to wait a few weeks to see if this changes, but I think we are going to do some sleep training, which will involve some gentle cry-it-out.

The thing is, she often cios for naps in her swing and even in the baby carrier (which we wear her for most of her naps). She almost seems to need to cry a little before she falls asleep.

I just can't help but feel a little guilty about it. Is it really so awful?


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## elisheva (May 30, 2006)

IMO, if you leave her to cry alone unless circumstances are desperate (like you have to walk away because you are going to lose your cool), it's cruel. If you stay with her while she cries, I think that's normal bedtime stuff.

There's a growing body of evidence that CIO is damaging to babies' brains.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You know what "sleep training" really is? Learned helplessness. As in, no one comes when I cry, so I'm going to give up trying. Not a trait I want my kids to learn, personally.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

what is "gentle" cry it out?

the baby is waking up at night to nurse because she needs you. i'd suggest that you cherish this time. it goes quickly.

it's all well and good to want to cuddle with your husband, but your baby needs you now. any reason she can't be included in the cuddle?

if you are feeling guilty... there's a reason why. think about it


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

I was a nanny for years and had to sleep train several babies (per the parents demands). The biggest reason I never did it with my own dd is because I had to emotionally distance myself from the boys and I saw how their personalities changed. Our bond suffered and they became more needy and clingy during the day and I became more impatient. One kid cried 24 hours a day for 2 weeks, I literally almost quit my job. I didn't want to risk any kind of distance with my own child or lose her trust. I know being a nanny is totally different and the love is obviously nothing like your own child, and it still hurt like crazy to hear those sweet babies cry and cry and cry, day after day after day.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Why don't you nurse her to sleep all the time? I don"t get it. Is it somehow more desirable to have her fall asleep without nursing?


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

4 months is very young for any sort of CIO. Dr. Ferber himself advocated that his method not be used on kids under 30 lbs. It was first done to address a behavioral situation...as in, toddler who USED to go to sleep and stay asleep on his own , no longer did - then that might be a time to try 'ferberization' or CIO. But at 4 months old - this baby cant be expected to sleep through the night just yet. I have a 5 month old and a DH who works 14 hours a day ...so i understand what you mean about time to stretch out...do your own thing, cuddle with your husband (or jump on the computer) but 4 months is just too young - IMHO


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## DeerMother (Apr 22, 2008)

I understand your frustration.

However, there are a bunch of developmental stages your dd will go through. Each of these may cause her to wake more at night. If you do sleep training, you will be doing it again, and again, and again - each time she reaches a new milestone.

Could you try -

-leaving her in the moby

-staying in bed and reading

-getting her to sleep and having tea w/ your dh on the couch

My ds did often fuss to sleep. Some children need to do that to release stress. But *I* feel that I enhanced our bond and trust by always being there with him.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sssheri*
> 
> We have a 4 month old and have been going with the flow, only adjusting things that become problems. I co-sleep for most of the night, but like her to go down before I get to bed and then have a few hours to stretch out, read, and cuddle with my husband before she comes into bed with me (she is in a co-sleeper).
> 
> ...


Yes, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8636950.stm

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_folden_palmer2.html

Here are some websites that explain what normal human baby sleep looks like:

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsleepthrough.html

http://www.drjen4kids.com/soap%20box/sleep%20stuff.htm


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi, everyone! Just a reminder of our User Agreement: MDC doesn't wish to host the advocation of CIO or harsh sleep training:

Quote:


> Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. *We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training*, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.


This forum's guidelines are located here.

Once we become parents it is easy to blame ourselves when our children's behavior seems out of control. The pervasive idea that we should be able to control sleep habits leads us too quickly to call night waking a "sleep disorder" and to wonder what we are doing wrong to cause it. Research gives no indication that anything parents do causes night waking. Babies whose cries are responded to rapidly are not more prone to it. Assuming that there is some method out there to treat sleep "disorders" undermines a parent's confidence. Despite the notion that "healthy, normal" babies sleep through the night, surveys of parents show that most babies do not sleep through the night, at least until all their teeth are in.

While waiting for our children to develop physically and emotionally to the point where they can realistically soothe themsleves to sleep, we need to work on our own development toward tolerance, patience, and acceptance of those aspects of parenting that are beyond our control. What remains in our control is the ability to continue to care for our children even though they are keeping us awake at night; to continue to hold to our own integrity as feeling people.

To embrace a philosophy that takes into account the individual needs of each child is not to ignore the unfortunate reality that we need sleep. We need to nurture ourselves in this process of raising children. The key to tolerance, and the natural passge through the nightwaking years, is to observe, accept, and work with your child's own inner rhythms and timetables, which can lead to the understanding that nurturing your child and nurturing yourself are not mutually exclusive enterprises.

Natural Family Living by Peggy O'Mara

Please feel free to PM me or a forum moderator with any questions. You're also welcome to email me at [email protected] Thank you!


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

My quote function isn't working at the moment. These quotes are both from the original post

*"The thing is, she often cios for naps in her swing and even in the baby carrier (which we wear her for most of her naps). She almost seems to need to cry a little before she falls asleep."*

There is a difference between crying alone in the swing and crying while you hold her in the carrier. Some babies do seem to need the stress release of crying before they are able to sleep *but* the stress hormone levels of babies who are held to do this are significantly lower. Gently, if you are leaving her to cry in her swing then you are already practicing CIO and I urge you to reconsider this.

*"I just can't help but feel a little guilty about it. Is it really so awful?"*

IMO, yes it is and age doesn't really make it any less awful. A few people have mentioned that 4 months old seems a bit young but I can't think of an age where I would be ok with it. I also get the desire to have your own time and I have sighed many a heavy sigh when my LO has needed resettling every 30 mins when I just wanted to sit down with my DH and watch TV. But, "this too shall pass" has become my mantra 

And, as for snuggling, DH often comes in and spoons with me while I feed J. It's lovely. I can also read while she feeds, once her eyes are closed, and sleeps. Would that be an option?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sssheri*
> 
> I know there is a 4 month sleep regression, so we are going to wait a few weeks to see if this changes, but I think we are going to do some sleep training, which will involve some gentle cry-it-out.


My personal opinion is that there is no thing such as gentle crying it out, because crying it out does not mean putting her to bed and letting her fuss a bit and then picking her back up if it is clear she is not ready to sleep. It also doesn't mean holding her and or being with her and trying to comfort her even though she is crying. It means letting her cry until she is so exhausted she has no choice but to fall asleep. I suppose gentle crying it out could mean letting her cry for a period of time until her cries become frantic enough that you can't take it, but honestly, that's not gentle and doesn't accomplish anything good.

I had friends who sleep trained their child, put her to bed awake and sometimes she'd start to fuss, and they'd let her cry for a bit standing outside her door, but if the crying became loud and they realized it wasn't just a bit of fussiness before she fell asleep they'd get her back up again. When they did put her to bed when I was there, she'd usually cry some during a minute or two, but it would start to taper down right away. That's kind of what we did with babies when we were growing up, and I don't consider it CIO, but I know some might call it that.

I will admit that my own baby would cry quite loudly at bedtime when she was lying there next to my husband and I was brushing my teeth, or if I was changing her diaper before bed. I tried nursing her first, but then when I got up to go away, she'd cry, so I just kind of gave up and hurried through my nighttime routine. She was never an easy sleeper, though, and I think when crying it out seems to work, it's because they end up having emotional issues during waking hours, or they are easier going babies to begin with, like my friend's baby who didn't cry much at bedtime, or my second child who loved to sleep and would nurse, fall asleep, and I could get up and leave.


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## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

Wow. Maybe I should have been a little more clear in my posting! I know that walking away from a crying infant is not something I could do and don't think is beneficial for anyone. I plan on still co-sleeping, I just need a way to get dd to go to sleep in the begining of the night and stay asleep for at least 1 hour, when I can join her and we can co-sleep. She cries herself to sleep for every nap, whether she is in the baby carrier, or with us sitting right next to her, rocking and shushing her in the swing. Basically we would be doing the same thing, putting her in the co-sleeper drowsy and then shushing and patting her until she falls asleep. If she wakes in the next hour and I can't come to bed, then we would repeat the shushing and patting. Dh is currently wearing her in the Moby for 2 hours and his back is killing him (she is a BIG baby). Sorry that I wasn't more clear.

So my question is, is what I just described still terrible?

I would love if she would still nurse to sleep, but she stopped on her own. She only does it when she wakes at night.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *soso-lynn*
> 
> Why don't you nurse her to sleep all the time? I don"t get it. Is it somehow more desirable to have her fall asleep without nursing?


I meant that we wouldn't leave her in the room to cry, but would be right next to the co-sleeper as she fell asleep. I love sleeping with dd, but I don't want to go to bed at 8pm when she does. She can't handle a later bedtime and I work, so I need more than 3 hours in the afternoons to get stuff done and unwind before I can sleep.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *ElliesMomma*
> 
> what is "gentle" cry it out?
> 
> ...


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

I wouldn't do it, but I was never "comfortable" with anything other than in-arms crying unless I had to sit on the toilet or drive somewhere vitally important.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for clarifying. I guess I don't really understand the benefit of shushing and patting compared to holding or feeding. It still requires you to be present with your child but is a ?less effective way of soothing her. If you're not planning to leave her to CIO (and I'm really glad you're not) then why not just pick her up and cuddle her or lie down and feed her? I mean, if you're not getting to read or relax either way then one of you may as well be getting their needs met KWIM









I'm not sure if the research has been done on this or not but, it seems to me that if the baby is crying to be held or fed and get patted instead then their stress hormones are likely to go up.

Oh, and if your husband's back is hurting wearing the Moby then she may have grown too heavy for a stretchy wrap. Do you have a woven wrap or SSC? Even though the stretchy wraps are tested to 20kg or so, most people seem to find that they stop providing enough support well before that weight. We stopped using ours at around the 7kg mark I think.


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## marimara (Jan 31, 2008)

It's been a while since my dd was a babe but if I were you I would keep trying to nurse baby to sleep. Just because she quit at 2.5 months dones't mean she can't go back to nursing to sleep. Patting and shooshing are going to be such a pain to do in the long run, compared to nursing to sleep. Baby will get used to all the patting and shooshing and you'll be doing that forever. I nursed dd for 2 yrs and never would have made it if nursing didn't work so well to soothe and get her to sleep.


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## plantnerd (Aug 20, 2010)

I think 4 months old is way too young. For an older baby (12 months plus), and you've tried everything, and still nobody is sleeping, you do what you have to do.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

She is four months old mama. I see what you wrote to try and explain and yes this is still CIO. She is four months old.

Quote:


> I meant that we wouldn't leave her in the room to cry, but would be right next to the co-sleeper as she fell asleep. I love sleeping with dd, but I don't want to go to bed at 8pm when she does. She can't handle a later bedtime and I work, so I need more than 3 hours in the afternoons to get stuff done and unwind before I can sleep


I guess if you are still there why not comfort her? I am a bit confused. And as a working mama I totally understand needing time to unwind but 3 hours is really a lot of time at that age.I would have killed for that! 

I also want to remind everyone of what georgia posted above:

Quote:


> *We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training*


This is not the place for it and please let's keep the conversation away from defending CIO, not that it is ever ok... but especially for an infant as young as this.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

i really don't think that what you are suggesting will be that helpful.

the problem you are having is that she won't stay asleep if you put her down? so at 8pm, she falls asleep, but when you try to put her down in her cosleeper, she immediately wakes up unless you are right there with her? is that the problem?

your current solution is to have your DH wear her in a moby until when? when you all go to bed? and this is no longer working because your DH's back hurts.

if all that is correct, you have two different solutions:

one is to get your DH a carrier that can actually support her weight and is comfy for him. since he is already good with the moby, i'd suggest a woven wrap. they are meant to support much more weight and are more comfortable for the wearer. plus, you can try out some back carries, that allow your dd to feel close and secure, but give your DH a bit more freedom to do different things. a carrier like a mei tai, ergo or something similar might work too... the best thing would be to go to a store that sells different types, and try them on, or if possible, go to a babywearing meeting.

the second is to go to bed at 8pm with your baby. set yourself up comfortably with a couple of books, a cup of tea, a laptop with headphones, etc. i know how you feel about wanting some space before going to bed, but at 4 months, that just might not be in the cards for you. anyway, do whatever you do to get her to sleep, nursing (keep trying, babies' habits and desires do change over time), rocking, swaddling etc. then, get comfy. read or whatever... do this for a few nights, just enjoy the downtime. DH can join you and you can watch something on a laptop or whatever. now, here is where you have to remember that nothing stays the same forever. when she is deeply asleep, you can try getting up. at first this might only mean you get up for 15-30 min, until her sleep cycle is over. but some days you might get lucky and get an hour or two, or even more.

the most important thing is that you identify what things she needs to sleep best, and provide the best sleep environment you can. for my dd, she needed swaddling (still does!) and sucking to stay asleep. white noise, motion, etc weren't so important to her... so we were always able to get good stretches of sleep out of her in the evenings before my bedtime just by swaddling her well, nursing down and then giving a paci. this all does pass... it might seem daunting now, but it will pass.


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## elisheva (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> the second is to go to bed at 8pm with your baby. set yourself up comfortably with a couple of books, a cup of tea, a laptop with headphones, etc. i know how you feel about wanting some space before going to bed, but at 4 months, that just might not be in the cards for you. anyway, do whatever you do to get her to sleep, nursing (keep trying, babies' habits and desires do change over time), rocking, swaddling etc. then, get comfy. read or whatever... do this for a few nights, just enjoy the downtime. DH can join you and you can watch something on a laptop or whatever. now, here is where you have to remember that nothing stays the same forever. when she is deeply asleep, you can try getting up. at first this might only mean you get up for 15-30 min, until her sleep cycle is over. but some days you might get lucky and get an hour or two, or even more.


Yes. I got rid of a ton of parenting stress when I realized and accepted that "this is just how it's going to be for a while". I remind myself a LOT that in 20 years I will be crying to not have a cuddly baby to hold and rock to sleep. Sleep changes so quickly for them - it seems like forever when you're in the middle of it - but it's not. I've forgotten so much of what my ds1 was like to put to sleep as a newborn. He sleeps fine now at 4 y.o. and everything else is moot.

I also agree it may be time to get a different carrier or a non-stretchy wrap. I'm not comfy with my kids in those after they hit about 15 lbs - too much sage.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

I'm wondering a couple things... First, how would she fall asleep if you went to bed with her? Would you be nursing or cuddling? Can you do this (whatever it is you'd do if you were also going to bed) and then just slip away and leave her there? Also, if you can make swaddling part of that, it might help a lot. You said that often she'll fall asleep in the MOBY and your partner is able to transfer her to the co-sleeper, but then she wakes up. If she were swaddled when she fell asleep (not sure if that can be accomplished with the MOBY), I bet she'd last a bit longer.

I do agree with other posters that you may have to just follow her lead for a little while and give up your hopes for a few hours of stretching out. I would feel pretty frustrated if I worked all day and then only had three hours after work before I pretty much had to go to bed. Ugh. BUT it really is only for a short time. At that age, things change pretty quickly. You may look up in three or six weeks and find that you've gotten into some routine that you would not have seen coming. I do know what it's like to lay there, not tired, thinking of all of the things on your "to do" list, or the show you want to watch or the knitting project you're craving to work on. But when you're past this I swear it will seem like it didn't go on for too long.


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## Gemini529 (Oct 11, 2009)

I have a few questions/suggestions for you. My baby is almost 9 mos old and he is a LIGHT sleeper and has always been kind of needy during the night so I know where you're coming from.

1. Do you have to put her to bed at 8 pm? Maybe she just isn't all that tired yet. Could you let her play a little longer and get her down later? I used to try to push an earlier bed time on my DS, but once I gave in and just let him stay up til 10, he would go down a lot easier since he was much more tired. I found my LO started to sleep better once I ditched the schedules I had in my mind. He sleeps when he is tired and that's about it. I don't let his naps dictate my schedule either. If I need to go to the grocery store, he'll sleep in the car, ya know? Sometimes he has a "bigger day" than others and needs more naps. Sometimes he's just not tired and only needs one.

2. Have you totally given up on nursing her to sleep? Try to keep her preoccupied for at least an hour or more so she's super hungry around when you want to put her to bed. Give her a bath...my son is always really hungry and tired after playing in the tub. Maybe you could get back in the nursing down habit since IMO it makes it easier.

3. If you are willing to try nursing her down again...Could you put a blanket on the floor beside her crib and nurse her to sleep lying down? Just make sure the space is super safe. You might be able to just nurse her to sleep and leave her there until she wakes up so you get some time to yourself in your own room.

4. I just want to say that it does get better. My son started waking up a lot around that same age. He became really difficult to put down and I had to revolve my night routine completely around him sleeping/waking. I would nurse him down in the bed and my husband and I had to go to the guest room to get any alone time.

5. Now that he's older, he will easily go down for his first stretch of sleep around 10 pm in his crib and give me at least 4 hours in my own bed to myself before he wakes up. Then I'm more than happy to let him come into my bed again. One of these nights, he'll sleep through the night in his crib and I know I'll miss the nights when he wanted to come in and cuddle. He's already done it once but so far, it hasn't happened again. I'm sure he will when he's ready and your daughter will, too. You are right, though. Getting him in his own bed for the first few hours of the night really does make difference.

6. I never let my baby cry it out and I also NEVER put him to bed "tired but awake". Yeah, that method still doesn't work for me despite how popular it is. I nurse him to sleep in the rocker or my DH rocks him to sleep with a bottle. Then he goes down asleep!

7. I know it's really unpopular/taboo and I don't want to start a debate here, but does she sleep better on her tummy? If she can roll over and lift her head up well, you could let her try it if you are comfortable with the idea (It is a SIDS risk for very young babies). My son has been sleeping on his tummy since he was a little over 2 months old. It's the only way he would sleep more than 10 mins at a time. My ped said babies who spit up a lot tend to sleep better that way. He used to fall asleep during tummy time and I'd just let him stay on his mat cause it was the only time he actually got some good sleep. Once he could roll, I started putting him down that way and he slept a lot better. He still rolls onto his tummy if I put him on his back.

8. You could try the swaddle, but some babies hate it. My son screamed his head off when I tried to swaddle him and doesn't even like to be wrapped in his bath towel. Some babies love it, though!

Hope some of this helps. Push through it...you're almost there!

PS, your baby is still SO little. She will start to understand a lot more once a few more months go by. I really think she just doesn't understand the world yet and wants some comfort. I found that when my baby started sitting up on his own, a lot of things changed. He seemed like he was more socially aware and started playing independently. Pretty soon, she'll start crawling/moving around and be exhausted by bed time. You'll get through it!


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sssheri*
> 
> I would love if she would still nurse to sleep, but she stopped on her own. She only does it when she wakes at night.


 This struck me as odd that baby stopped and at such a young age. Also the crying while in the carrier makes me wonder if she may wish to have access to your breast while being carried and perhaps in motion (?) My son needed me to be in motion in order for him to latch in the early months. Being in motion while nursing was actually very settling for him and did indeed often put him to sleep. It seems that if you can get back to nursing her sleep like in the earlier months, this may be the remedy.

I wonder if perhaps you may wish to post in Breastfeeding, as it could be a BF'g issue.

Do you nurse your daughter in the carrier? If not it actually is very easy and convenient, and if your baby is anything like mine it may be very helpful.

Okay, one other thought. Do you have a forceful let down? I am just thinking about baby nursing better while sleeping and not wanting to nurse while actually getting to sleep. Nursing to sleep is very natural so I suppose I am just trying to figure out if there may be a way to get her back on track with it, It seems it may help you solve the issue about getting her to sleep so that you may be able to slip away for a short while.


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## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you, SilverFish, your response was really helpful. The "problem" is that she wakes up 30 mins after she goes to sleep whether we are there or not. If I co-sleep with her the whole night, my back usually hurts because I have to stay in one position. If she comes into bed around 12, then I am usually ok. The only way we have been able to get her to go back to sleep was by me going to bed with her side lying nursing. I have tried to slip away afterwards, but she wakes up right away.

I think we will try out a new carrier. She is still swaddled, which is why we need a wrap, so she can slip right in. I wish I could hang out in the bedroom with her sleeping next to me. That would be ideal, but like I said, she won't sleep unless side lying with me. I guess I will just have to suffer a sore back for a few more months and hopefully she will outgrow this stage.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> i really don't think that what you are suggesting will be that helpful.
> 
> ...


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't put my infants down until they want to be. What I mean is that the baby is with me until *I* go to bed- in a carrier/wrap, in my arms, in my lap, nursing, whatever. This means that they have had a "bedtime" between midnight and 1am until they are around a year old, and clearly indicated a desire to sleep in the bed. Then, I end up in there for about an hour at their bedtime, for a while, and that reduces to just a few minutes over the course of a few months, and by that time, they sleep much longer stretches, so I have hours before they call me to nurse. During our evenings, my infants sleep most of the time, but wake up, nurse, go back to sleep while I read/type/listen to dp reading, play for a bit, watch a philosophy presentation or Billy Connolly with dp and me, etc..., with minimal interruption to what I'd like to accomplish. When there is an infant in the home, I do not do chores in the evening; if it wasn't done during the day, it'll be done tomorrow.

I just think it would be so much easier if your infant could be with you in the evening. I don't think infants need a bedtime at all. They sleep when they need to, even though some need convincing, but nursing seems to do that very well. I couldn't go to bed at 8pm, but I can sit for an hour with my infant nursing and sleeping on my lap for an hour, then sling him/her, then do things that I want to do.

Could there be lifestyle issues here? I can see how if you were training for a marathon or testing baking recipes during your evenings, having the baby with you would be not just uncomfortable, but dangerous, too. I have simple, restful, non-committed evenings, and give my days all of my capacity for industry. Maybe you are trying to do too much? It's okay to rest. I have a six month old, my fifth baby, and I cherish our evenings together, knowing she's our last, but I have cherished each of them this way. The day is over, and now we rest together. I think it's wonderful.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I just think it would be so much easier if your infant could be with you in the evening. I don't think infants need a bedtime at all. They sleep when they need to, even though some need convincing, but nursing seems to do that very well. I couldn't go to bed at 8pm, but I can sit for an hour with my infant nursing and sleeping on my lap for an hour, then sling him/her, then do things that I want to do.
> 
> Could there be lifestyle issues here? I can see how if you were training for a marathon or testing baking recipes during your evenings, having the baby with you would be not just uncomfortable, but dangerous, too. I have simple, restful, non-committed evenings, and give my days all of my capacity for industry. Maybe you are trying to do too much? It's okay to rest. I have a six month old, my fifth baby, and I cherish our evenings together, knowing she's our last, but I have cherished each of them this way. The day is over, and now we rest together. I think it's wonderful.


I really like how you worded this. I had my babe in arms for the first 6 mos. Then I had to go back to work but wore him all evening and we co-slept to continue being close to each other. Babies this age need to be close to you and bedtime is irrelevant to them.

I am a firm believer in a bedtime routine for older toddlers and our son goes to bed the exact same way every night. But this is a very needy time for your baby and any kind of "sleep training" regardless of how it is phrased or implemented is unnecessary and inappropriate.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

to all the PP's who think the baby is too young to not nurse to sleep-- my 11 week old DS2 will also NOT nurse to sleep. He hasn't since the very beginning. i have slight oversupply and OALD, so nursing has never been a comfortable, peaceful thing for him. He goes to sleep by rocking, wearing, or walking around while sucking his fingers or a soother. Not my ideal, but that is just the way he is. I too would love to be able to just pop a boob out whenever he was tired, but for us it just doesn't work (if he is not hungry he will SCREAM if i try to nurse him!)...

To the OP-- i agree with everyone about your babe being much too young for this, and you've gotten a lot of great suggestions! what worked for me with DS1, is after he went to bed and inevitably woke up 30-45 minutes later, i would go in and nurse him laying down until he was back asleep, then i would roll away (slooowly and carefully) and put a pillow in my place. then i could rejoin hubby for another 30-60 minutes .. yes it was tough but that time was over so quickly and now he is in his own big boy bed and just needs a quick cuddle from DH and he is out for the night..

with ds2, right now he stays "up" with us and i rock him to sleep and just hold him in the rocker until we all go to bed....

like a lot of PP's said-- this time is so short and over so quickly.. just go with the flow and find something that will work for everyone without tears from your DD. this may mean changing your expectations, but just know it won't last forever.


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## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

No marathon training here! I'm not even trying to keep the house clean, just catching up on some emails, some lesson planning for work, eating dinner and saying hello to dh. I would love for dd to be able to hang out with me all night, but she is very high needs and gets very fussy if she doesn't sleep around every 90 mins or so. We usually have her in the baby carrier or on our laps. I try every day to have her nurse to sleep, but she will only do it in the middle of the night. We don't start her evening routine until she "tells" us she is ready (by getting bored and fussy) but that tends to be around the same time every night. We both have to wake up at 5:30 so I can nurse her before I go to work and if she doesn't get enough sleep, so gets very fussy and will scream all day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PreggieUBA2C*
> 
> I don't put my infants down until they want to be. What I mean is that the baby is with me until *I* go to bed- in a carrier/wrap, in my arms, in my lap, nursing, whatever. This means that they have had a "bedtime" between midnight and 1am until they are around a year old, and clearly indicated a desire to sleep in the bed. Then, I end up in there for about an hour at their bedtime, for a while, and that reduces to just a few minutes over the course of a few months, and by that time, they sleep much longer stretches, so I have hours before they call me to nurse. During our evenings, my infants sleep most of the time, but wake up, nurse, go back to sleep while I read/type/listen to dp reading, play for a bit, watch a philosophy presentation or Billy Connolly with dp and me, etc..., with minimal interruption to what I'd like to accomplish. When there is an infant in the home, I do not do chores in the evening; if it wasn't done during the day, it'll be done tomorrow.
> 
> ...


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## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you! She really won't nurse to sleep. I was so sad when she stopped, but she would pull away and scream bloody murder. She stopped screaming now, but she won't sleep, just finishes her meal and then starts playing with my clothes or hair.

I like your sidelying sleeping suggestion. Dd is swaddled and I am worried that putting a pillow next to her could suffocate her. Was your baby swaddled when you did this? Maybe I could try the old sleep positioner instead. She is such a light sleeper though, that she usually wakes up as I am sneaking off the bed!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185*
> 
> to all the PP's who think the baby is too young to not nurse to sleep-- my 11 week old DS2 will also NOT nurse to sleep. He hasn't since the very beginning. i have slight oversupply and OALD, so nursing has never been a comfortable, peaceful thing for him. He goes to sleep by rocking, wearing, or walking around while sucking his fingers or a soother. Not my ideal, but that is just the way he is. I too would love to be able to just pop a boob out whenever he was tired, but for us it just doesn't work (if he is not hungry he will SCREAM if i try to nurse him!)...
> 
> ...


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

he was not swaddled, but i never really saw how he could suffocate? he too was a super light sleeper (speaking of which, have you tried white noise?) but i just kept trying until it finally worked. i usually had to wait until he was in a deep sleep before rolling away


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## Angelorum (Aug 5, 2006)

So, she won't stay asleep unless you are sidelying? Is she wanting to be latched on the whole time, or does she just startle when you try to move away? If she wants to stay latched on, you could work on gently removing your nipple, a good method for that is detailed here. I remember a few months around that age where I had a terrible time trying to escape once my son was asleep, but then a little while later I realized that it had all the sudden become a piece of cake!

Could she start the night in her swing? My son napped in his bouncy seat at that age, and I would put him down at bedtime in it as well, and then take him into bed with me when I was ready to go to sleep.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

Our daughter was a light sleeper and would easily wake when we tried to sneak off. What worked for us was to really study her sleep patterns for a bit. And then not get too impatient and try to sneak off too soon. We had to wait until she was in a deep sleep. For her, it came about 10 minutes after she fell asleep. Basically, if we tried to move away from her before her little arm was rubber, with ZERO resistance, when lifted from her body and dropped back down than she would wake. When we thought she was asleep...wait another minute. This then gave us about 30minutes before she woke and had to be tended to. But our DD had 40min sleep cycles then.

Then about 6 or 7 months old we could get 90 minutes. She would be able to fuss for 30 seconds after the first full sleep cycle and go back down herself for another one.

She is 18 months old and still needs some attention every 2-3 sleep cycles. But she is confident that we are there and usually goes right back to sleep with either a little nursing or cuddle.

Also. We still use a white noise machine. We keep it on the waves sound. It';s relaxing for all of us.

And she likes movement. At 4 months it was BIG movement. Now she enjoys a little rocking for being pt down for naps or back to sleep.


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## sssheri (Oct 3, 2010)

Gemini- Thanks! Hopefully our LO will go for longer stretches like your son.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> I'm wondering a couple things... First, how would she fall asleep if you went to bed with her? Would you be nursing or cuddling? Can you do this (whatever it is you'd do if you were also going to bed) and then just slip away and leave her there? Also, if you can make swaddling part of that, it might help a lot. You said that often she'll fall asleep in the MOBY and your partner is able to transfer her to the co-sleeper, but then she wakes up. If she were swaddled when she fell asleep (not sure if that can be accomplished with the MOBY), I bet she'd last a bit longer.
> 
> I do agree with other posters that you may have to just follow her lead for a little while and give up your hopes for a few hours of stretching out. I would feel pretty frustrated if I worked all day and then only had three hours after work before I pretty much had to go to bed. Ugh. BUT it really is only for a short time. At that age, things change pretty quickly. You may look up in three or six weeks and find that you've gotten into some routine that you would not have seen coming. I do know what it's like to lay there, not tired, thinking of all of the things on your "to do" list, or the show you want to watch or the knitting project you're craving to work on. But when you're past this I swear it will seem like it didn't go on for too long.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *colsxjack*
> 
> Our daughter was a light sleeper and would easily wake when we tried to sneak off. What worked for us was to really study her sleep patterns for a bit. And then not get too impatient and try to sneak off too soon. We had to wait until she was in a deep sleep. For her, it came about 10 minutes after she fell asleep. Basically, if we tried to move away from her before her little arm was rubber, with ZERO resistance, when lifted from her body and dropped back down than she would wake. When we thought she was asleep...wait another minute. This then gave us about 30minutes before she woke and had to be tended to. But our DD had 40min sleep cycles then.
> 
> ...


This sounds like dd! We have a white noise machine VERY LOUD right next to the bed. I love it too!


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Yeah, i'm confused because I think that if you are with your baby and helping her through a transition then it is not cio. Have you read the no cry sleep solution? I can't believe i'm suggesting it because I read it about 1000 times and it didn't really help me, but you sound like a real good candidate for it. She may just need to let off steam before she sleeps and I think it's great that someone is there with her.

You have to follow your instincts and do what is right for your family. I don't advocate cio but it just doesn't seem like that is what you are doing here!


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## Subhuti (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elisheva*
> 
> IMO, if you leave her to cry alone unless circumstances are desperate (like you have to walk away because you are going to lose your cool), it's cruel. If you stay with her while she cries, I think that's normal bedtime stuff.
> 
> There's a growing body of evidence that CIO is damaging to babies' brains.


I often thought my eldest benefitted from a small cry out before naps when she was very little ... But I agree with this poster it is best to not leave them when they do.

I think that co sleeping, something I never planned to do, was one of the best things I could give my two girls.

It's my opinion the reason so many americans have such poor self esteem and resort to long term anti depressants is from the emotional trauma of being separated each night from their moms and or dads.

The cortisol flood it produces ... So not good. The message it sends... So not good.


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## HappyWoman (Nov 2, 2009)

A new carrier sounds like a great idea. If there is back pain involved, I'd go with a soft structured carrier. We love our Ergo, but if I could rewind time, I would have gotten a Boba. (The Boba is like an Ergo but it has a few added features, like the foot rest, and it's a few inches taller. It's also made in the US and is less expensive than the Ergo.)

My sister has a 5 month old, and she recently started using the techniques from The Sleep Lady, and she's very happy with it. The Sleep Lady isn't about CIO, but it is a sleep training method of putting your LO down awake while you pat them to sleep - it's also about routine and following your baby's cues. My sister has been using it for a few weeks and she said that it has been the first sleep book that has felt right to her. She co-slept/nursed to sleep for the first 4 months, and that worked well while she was on maternity leave. Now that she's back at work though, she wanted a system for the other caregivers to follow to put baby down for naps since she isn't around to nurse to sleep. Neither she or her husband were on board with long-term co-sleeping either, and many sleep books say that the best time to transition from co-sleeping bed to crib is at 4-5 months.

Last week I was able to watch their nap time routine a few times, and I saw both my sister and my dad (aka grandpa) put him down awake with just a few minutes of fussing.

I personally am in the co-sleeping/babywearing/AP camp, and that works for us, but I realize that it doesn't work for everyone. When our DS was about 3mo old, I started following the techniques in the NCSS (regular naps, bedtime routine, nursing until almost asleep and then pulling off the breast and using my fingers to close his mouth shut). We wear DS a lot in a sling/Ergo, but when he was about 3months I made a point of putting him down in a bed for naps and an early bedtime (via the methods in NCSS.) The main reason I did this was so that DH and I could have intimate time together, and so that I could have some time for a meditation/yoga practice and time on the computer.

I've found that if I nurse to sleep, then pull off and hold my fingers on his chin/upper lip for a few moments, and then put my hand on him for a few minutes while I lay with him, he'll fall into a deep sleep. Sometimes I'll even lay with him for 15 minutes or so before tip toeing away. (While I'm there I'll do Savasana yoga pose, or I'll do some deep breathing/relaxation.) I find that if I rush the process, he'll wake up.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

How close to five months is your baby? My DD turned five months on Saturday and the last week or so has been better for us. She is also a "in arms only" baby. She does NOT sleep alone, pretty much ever. It is draining, and I understand your frustration. I was nearly giddy yesterday when DD slept in the swing for an hour! She's starting to be able/willing to sleep on her own, but she prefers to be in a swing or the car seat, due to her reflux, I think, and also she likes the feeling of being snug like in a wrap. She also rarely nurses to sleep. But in this last week we've had a few days where I nursed her till she was super drowsy and popping off and fussing and the breast, which she does before she falls asleep. I moved her over to the swing and snugged her in tight, and turned on the swing. She actually stopped fussing immediately and played with the toys for a few minutes before she fell asleep, peacefully. Had she begun to cry I would have picked her up, of course.

The biggest thing I have had to do is adjust my expectations of evenings and learn how to get/keep DD to sleep up with me. She doesn't have a bed time, nor does she "go to bed" without me. I can usually get her to sleep in my lap and then I do whatever on my laptop. I'll shift her over to DH once he is really sound asleep and do a little house work. If she is fussy, than we go to bed earlier, and DH finishes up what we need to get ready for tomorrow. I do a lot of emailing from my phone, laying on my side next to her in bed.

Hang in there Mama! This is a rough time, for me anyway, we're five months into her being very needy, and I'm expected to be fully functioning at work now. It's really tough to juggle everything!


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## MamaMunchkin (Feb 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sssheri*
> 
> Around 2 1/2 months she stopped nursing to sleep and dh has been wearing her down in the Moby (starting at 8pm) and then putting her in the co-sleeper until she woke up around 12 -2. At about 3 1/2 months old she started waking up about 30 mins after he put her down and won't fall back asleep unless I take her into bed and nurse her. (She hasn't even been staying asleep if I nurse her and then move her to the co-sleeper.) I know there is a 4 month sleep regression, so we are going to wait a few weeks to see if this changes, but I think we are going to do some sleep training, which will involve some gentle cry-it-out.


I haven't read all the replies, sorry if repeating - but could she be teething?

If so, deal with that first and don't worry about sleep training etc for now.


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