# Shouldn't biting/hitting kids be kept AWAY from other kids?



## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

The recent "When is it ok to intervene when another child hurts yours?" thread (in Talk Amongst Ourselves) really bothered me. The original poster described a playdate-hosting mom with a 2yo son whom she [the hostess] *knew* was hitting, yet the hostess continued to have her son interact with other kids, even hosting playgroups!

This appalled me. I believe my child should be protected from abuse (by children or adults, both). I also believe all parents have a responsibility, call it the social contract or "raising the village," to keep their own biting/hitting/otherwise-abusive children out of the reach of potential victims. (I don't necessarily think we should raise eacher other's children, just make sure WE, ourselves or our kids, don't detrimentally affect others.) I mean, last month when my child had pinkeye, of *course* I kept her away from all other children -- even carrying her in doctor's office and pharmacy so she couldn't touch anyone -- until the treatment was underway and she wasn't contagious. Shouldn't I do the same thing if she went on a hitting streak? What's *wrong* with parents who knowingly (say, after the first bite or hit) expose other people's children to their own abusive kids?

Now, I'm not -- here, anyway -- blaming parents, or the kids themselves, for abusive tendencies. (I don't know enough to opine on abuse's causes.) But no matter *why* the kid is hitting, I just don't see why a hitter's parents allow the hitter to be with other kids. Anyone care to explain it to me? The only thing I can come up with is economics (boy, do I understand that, as a single parent): the parent doesn't want to give up playgroup/school time in order to quarantine her child. But hey, with the pinkeye, I had to take an unaffordable day off work. We've all had to do such things, for childhood illnesses & accidents. Any other reason I'm missing? (I could be asking this in the wrong messageboard; in the thread I mention, the "mommies of biters" addressing this subject did say they kept their children isolated until they were sure the biting phase had passed.)


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

How would you know if the hitting phase had passed if the hitter wasn't ever allowed near other kids?


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Seasons...I think that children who are biting or hitting should be allowed to play with other children but under close and constant supervision until the phase is over. As the mother of a former "biter", I could not take my eyes off my son for several months while he went through this. I intercepted many bites, and I was able to discipline appropriately b/c I was right there. I'd never consider leaving him unsupervised with other children. But, I wouldn't keep him from his friends either. Just my experience...


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:

How would you know if the hitting phase had passed if the hitter wasn't ever allowed near other kids?
That's a fair question, logically, *famousmockngbrd*. But "over" would have to be sometime PAST when the mom was still saying "oh, yeah, he's a hitter" or "...biter" (as in my La Leche League group, ick).









Wouldn't an abusive kid act out in other ways, too, hitting toys, parents, siblings, so you'd know something was up? Or be sullen/angry/tantrummy?


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pigpen*
Seasons...I think that children who are biting or hitting should be allowed to play with other children but under close and constant supervision until the phase is over. As the mother of a former "biter", I could not take my eyes off my son for several months while he went through this. I intercepted many bites, and I was able to discipline appropriately b/c I was right there. I'd never consider leaving him unsupervised with other children. But, I wouldn't keep him from his friends either. Just my experience...









Neither of my kids were hitters nor biters, but my oldest has been bitten once or twice. I don't expect that hitters/biters should be isolated from other children. How are they going to learn proper social behavior if they aren't allowed to socialize? I agree with Pigpen.... they need constant supervision AND the opportunity to make friends.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Wouldn't an abusive kid act out in other ways, too, hitting toys, parents, siblings, so you'd know something was up? Or be sullen/angry/tantrummy?

Dunno for sure. My 12yo has bipolar disorder and has been sullen/angry/tantrummy for much of his life, but he's never been physically violent or abusive. He may have kicked some furniture or walls here and there, but shoot, so have I.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

*Pigpen*, thanks for your input! Can you explain more, though?

Quote:

I intercepted many bites, and I was able to discipline appropriately b/c I was right there.
So, no bites actually occurred, because you prevented them all, but the "biting intention" was obvious enough to you to need to discpline your child for it? Wouldn't that biting intention be obvious to the intended victim, then, too? I mean, I haven't liked it the few times someone's taken a swing at me, or tried to throw something at me, but stopped at the last second. I sure wouldn't want my daughter to feel that scared, especially from a "friend."









Also, I just doubt most parents would be as absolutely supervising as would be necessary. (The parents in my examples seemed to think telling other parents "he's a biter" was enough, as if it was *my* job to police their kids!) I mean, it would only take a split-second for a child to get hurt...


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## gret the great (Nov 26, 2001)

My son was a hitter & it was often in new situations when he was excited to see other kids. At home he never hurt dolls, etc. After a good year of hovering, intercepting & responding he was & is no longer a hitter. Keeping him in isolation wouldn't have gotten him through it. Other kids (toddlers) have bitten/pushed my kids, and I expect parents to intervene & respond with claer consequences, but it doesn't always happen. When my son was in his hitting stage I had a few parents freak out on me, after I apologized & removed my son from the situation. It was not helpful. One of these parents now has # 2 who bites and pushes & I wish I could say "so now you know how it feels.".. but I don't - I just politely remove my child from hers.

I think a lot of times toddlers want to make a connection or be with another child & don't know how to express it ... so, it comes out in physicaly hurtful ways.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

Ok, before answering I need a little clarification on what you are defining abusive as. I do not think a kid on a biting or hiting streak is necessarily "abusive." My dd is 3.5 and so far we have had no biting or major hiting dilemmas. She has been hit or pushed over by other children etc so I have experience on that end.

I do not think the kid should be a complete social outcast until the phase passes but I do believe that the parent should be very observant and step in when necessary. Plus, I don't think it is easy to determine the reasons why kids act out physically, sometimes I think it has more to do with space issues, personal interaction levels, etc. than violent tendencies.

I also think that if the kids parent is working on the issue and is involved it is good for the rest of us to help the child by giving the child the opportunity to interact. I would hope others would give my child a chance to work through the problem.

lula


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I personally have a pretty big issue with describing a two year old as "abusive."

Many many kids do go through hitting and biting phases. And yes, they are problematic and difficult, but do we really want to label kids that are really still babies as "abusers?"

I just find that incredibly harsh.. and potentially problematic. Kids will often live up.. or down.. to their labels. Let's not be setting out self-fulfilling prophecies for babies.

To answer the question, even though the labeling here really bothers me...
I think socialization is an important part of working through the problem.
I do not think quarantining toddlers and calling them abusive in these cases is helpful.
I think, however, that it IS the parent's responsibility to stay very close to the child, to watch very carefully, and to see if a situation is escalating.. and to intervene before it deteriorates into biting or hitting.

Obviously not all parents can be counted on to do this.. which is why it is MY responsibility to also supervise closely, so that I can protect my child if necessary.

My ds is 2 1/2. He does not bite or hit.. and he has never been bit or hit in any social situation.. though I have had to intervene when other children have gotten too aggressive with him. And yes, there have been times I have been annoyed with the other parent for allowing their child to behave inappropriately. But that is LIFE. Ultimately it is MY responsibility to protect my child, so no, I don't expect people to keep their toddlers in baby lockdown if they are going through these phases.

Older children with behavior problems can be a different story.. but it would take some pretty severe patterns before I would hang the label "abusive" on a child.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
*Pigpen*, thanks for your input! Can you explain more, though? So, no bites actually occurred, because you prevented them all, but the "biting intention" was obvious enough to you to need to discpline your child for it? Wouldn't that biting intention be obvious to the intended victim, then, too? I mean, I haven't liked it the few times someone's taken a swing at me, or tried to throw something at me, but stopped at the last second. I sure wouldn't want my daughter to feel that scared, especially from a "friend."









Also, I just doubt most parents would be as absolutely supervising as would be necessary. (The parents in my examples seemed to think telling other parents "he's a biter" was enough, as if it was *my* job to police their kids!) I mean, it would only take a split-second for a child to get hurt...

After he started biting, I could tell what would trigger it. It was always frustration. He didn't bite (or try to bite) every child he played with. It was usually his cousin who is a year older, and occasionally his brother. Because I knew what would trigger it, I was able to talk him through it while protecting the other child. Discipline would be along the lines of redirecting, helping him to find another acceptable solution to the problem at hand and sometimes a "time out" to calm himself before going back to play. I can't remember exactly how old he was at the time but at a very early age he learned how to say "I'm frustrated!!"
There was a boy at our church who bit other children for a long time! His parents were rarely there to protect other children, but would see the aftermath. I couldn't understand why they didn't shadow him during that time. It got to the point where other children would run and cry if they saw him!
I don't understand why the parents in your situation think it's okay to just label thier child a "hitter" or a "biter" and then absolve themselves of all responsibility. That's not doing thier kids any favors!


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## saritasmile (Sep 5, 2004)

something else to consider in all of this is how hard it is to be the mama of the biter/ hitter. a 'quarentined' child means 'quarentined' mama. when you (general) are going through something hard, do you want to be comforted or shunned. my child has been the bitten and it was easy to point the finger, then he became the biter and i was mortified! mama's need support from one another. that being said, i think it's very important to keep a close close watch on a child who is biting/hitting while in social situations. well that's my 2 cents,


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
I personally have a pretty big issue with describing a two year old as "abusive."

Many many kids do go through hitting and biting phases. And yes, they are problematic and difficult, but do we really want to label kids that are really still babies as "abusers?"

I just find that incredibly harsh.. and potentially problematic. Kids will often live up.. or down.. to their labels. Let's not be setting out self-fulfilling prophecies for babies.

To answer the question, even though the labeling here really bothers me...
I think socialization is an important part of working through the problem.
I do not think quarantining toddlers and calling them abusive in these cases is helpful.
I think, however, that it IS the parent's responsibility to stay very close to the child, to watch very carefully, and to see if a situation is escalating.. and to intervene before it deteriorates into biting or hitting.

Obviously not all parents can be counted on to do this.. which is why it is MY responsibility to also supervise closely, so that I can protect my child if necessary.

Yeah, that.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

My children were never biters, hitters or pushers of other children. They have pushed each other on occasion but never outside the home for some reason.
While I don't think that bitters and hitters shoudl be isolated, it would be nice if the mother knew that they were prone to such to at least keep a very close eye on them when they get near another child. Yana had a plug on her arm for five months, yep five monsth the bruise from a bite lasted. He bit her so hard you could see every single tooth print as clear as an xray. Ic ouldn't console her, period and she was EXTREMLY wary of playing with any other child after that. The mother did come and literally pulled him off her, and simply told him" we don't bite" told me "sorry, he's a biter" and gave him a differant toy. He bit a plug in her and she just plopped him in another corner. tI'm sorry but I don't think that was helpful or productive, she could have at elast removed him from the area or something. I sat there for 10 minutes trying to console her befor eI just left in the 10 minutes he pushed a just learning to walk baby down and smacked a toddler in teh head with a toy. he was about 4 years old.
My children have been on more then there fair share of hitting and bitting and I undrestand that these things do happen I just want some kind of aprioprate response from the parent. Let me know *before* they play together that he bites and I will sit there and watch them myself. I also think that redirecting them to a new toy after they hit or bite someone is kind of counterproductive.I don't thin isolation is the key, as already stated you are ounishing the mom and the child won't know how to behave in a social setting at all.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Thanks, asherah, for saying that so clearly.










We have had biting/hitting issues with our DS#2, and he's hardly 'abusive.' He's overly energetic and excitable. He's 2yo, up until recently was not the most verbal kid on the block, and this is how it manifested. Though I don't do playdates or playgroups, he would basically attack his older siblings with incredible regularity.

It hasn't stopped entirely, but as he has recently had an incredible spurt in verbal skills, it's really gone way down. Now he can say that he's angry or happy or whatever it was that led him to hit before.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Don't a lot of two year olds bite and hit? It's pretty common. There are a lot of reasons why they have to be supervised closely! They have strong impulses that they can't control, and no judgement. They are likely to climb onto things that are too high or unsteady, to grab hot things off the stove because they don't believe/understand the word hot, to pull the cat's tail even though they are scared when she hisses at them.

Biting seems like a particular problem to me because ds bites me and his dad. He hasn't bit anyone else. He bites because his teeth feel funny, because he wants attention, and often to express affection! I posted about this to the GD board and a lot of parents responded to say that their children did this, too.

I don't think we would label a child "a tail-puller" just because they pull on the cat when they are two. We just have to be very vigilant with toddlers in general.

I read in my favorite parenting book about how to deal with children biting other children. One of the things they said (Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, that's the book) was that it's important for the child who has been bitten to get encouragement to say "no" to the biter or to otherwise repair the situation, and for the biter to get information ("When you bit little Yana it really hurt her, see she's crying.") and a way to repair the situation ("What do you think you can do about that?") And then, if the biten child doesn't want to play with the biter anymore, to explain why. I was happy to get advice about how to deal with being the parent of the bite-eee as well as the parent of the biter, because I am guessing I'll be on both ends of this--based on the experiences of other parents and children I know!


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

I'm glad for all these responses; this discussion is really interesting!

One common thread I see in all our posts is a (AP-consistent) focus on the well-being of our kids [hitters and victims both], treating them with respect and dignity.

And I see your point, *lotusdebi*, that perfect supervision of a biter/hitter is impossible:

Quote:

I can't always stop him in time. And, he is a lot faster than I am - and smaller, so he can run through cracks between people and things that I have to go around.
But, if I was to keep my son from other children because he's going through this, he would have been isolated for the past year. Is that really the right thing to do to a child?

My son has never seriously hurt anyone.
Where we disagree is that I think MY child, who hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, shouldn't have to pay the price, in physical harm, for another child's (lack of impulse control or whatever). I revere my child by NOT having her in situations where she will be intentionally hurt; she needn't learn the lesson that "friends/family hit you," thank you very much!

As for not "seriously hurt" by a bite or hit, gee. That's for the victim to decide, isn't it? I think it's a little too casual to blow off hitting as "doesn't count if it's not a big blow" to a child, just as I do if the victim is an adult woman (say, in an abusive relationship). I'll tell my teenage daughter that ANY hitting by a boy/friend is wrong; why should it be different when she's a toddler?

On another issue, *captain optimism* has a really good point about empowering kids to say "no," etc. We practice that a lot; I group all "bad touches" together [because a toddler cannot differentiate between a playmate's bite and a molester's fondle; experts focus on teaching kids about the touch, not who is touching] and she knows to say "bad touch! no! go away!" And we get to use the lessons, sadly; just Friday we were at a community center gathering and an unprovoked 4- or 5yo girl kicked my 2yo! (You can bet we yelled "no! go away!" -- and need I add that the mom was in another room and missed it all?)

Oh, and my child has never hit or bit [I don't think it's that common for kids to do it, but I'm no statistician], but she *has* pulled the cat's tail, and you can believe she gets the "bad touch! that hurts the kitty! please say you're sorry" lecture for it. And I will NOT allow her near others' cats, or to a pet store or cat show or anything; that would be violating my social-contract duties to protect those cats, see?

*asherah*, I hear that you

Quote:

have a pretty big issue with describing a two year old as "abusive."
But, see, my 2yo, if hit, can't differentiate between a hitter with "abusive intent" -- someone who wants to cause harm -- and a hitter who's "just testing." She still gets hurt by someone she trusts. It's all abuse to her, and so it is to me. We have a zero-tolerance police for "bad touches," abuse, in our family.

I _agree_ with you and *captain optimism* that we shouldn't label kids, at least to their faces; note that I focus (in our "bad touch" talks and use) on the behavior, not the person. Frankly, I'm using "hitter/biter" labels in this thread only because of verbal economy; shorter than "the kid who hits or bites." Sorry for the confusion!


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Okay my response here has to do with why we think kids are hitting/biting? If it is because they are stressed out during playdates or specific activities the hitting and biting is communicating that they are not comfortable in that situation during their current developmental phase - I think we owe it to them to "listen" to their behavior. My older ds went through a phase where every playdate with a specific neighbor kid ended with him crying (she was in a biting and face scratching phase and he didn't like sharing stuff with HER) They were BOTH telling us that playing together was not working for them - I like the little girls mom but told her upfront that the kids needed a breakfrom each other. We got through the phase and they get along fine now.

Anyway, my older ds didn't go through a hitting/biting phase but ifv my younger one does we will absolutely hangout at home for awhile rather that put him in situations that cause him enough stress to lash out at other kids and set him up to feel bad about his behavior.

It is like sleeping through the night - it is just a phase. I believe that if a certain situation prompts a negative behavior - taking our sweeties out of the situation extinguishes the behavior in a more positive way than forcing them to work through it.

Barb
dss 1 & 5


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## rosiesmama (Jul 24, 2002)

sorry!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Oh, and my child has never hit or bit [I don't think it's that common for kids to do it, but I'm no statistician], but she *has* pulled the cat's tail, and you can believe she gets the "bad touch! that hurts the kitty! please say you're sorry" lecture for it. And I will NOT allow her near others' cats, or to a pet store or cat show or anything; that would be violating my social-contract duties to protect those cats, see?

Okay, your child hasn't hit or bitten anyone (yet) but that doesn't mean that 1) she never will or 2) it's not very common. Obviously it _is_ common behavior, or we wouldn't be discussing it!

My neighbor upstairs, L., is 17, she was just admitted early decision to an Ivy League school (Wow! She's old enough to apply to college! I can't believe it. My dh tutored her for her bat mitzvah, and what was that, 20 minutes ago?







) When she was toddler, she not only bit, but she hit younger children. Her mother couldn't figure out how to stop it, and she couldn't predict it. Sometimes L. was fine, and she didn't hit or bite for a long time--weeks--and then she resumed the behavior. I don't know how long it lasted.

Obviously, she grew out of it! It really is a phase, but I also think that how a parent handles it is significant.

I don't think that parents of children who hit or bite have to isolate them, I think they have to supervise them. I don't think most children under kindergarten age are old enough to play totally unsupervised. Not just because of aggression, because they really don't have sound judgement yet. It's not reasonable to allow an aggressive child free reign to hit or say mean things to other children, and it's not reasonable to keep bringing a child back into a situation in which she consistently fails to control herself. Okay. But that's still all about staying on top of the situation consistently, observing, and intervening.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Where we disagree is that I think MY child, who hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, shouldn't have to pay the price, in physical harm, for another child's (lack of impulse control or whatever). I revere my child by NOT having her in situations where she will be intentionally hurt; she needn't learn the lesson that "friends/family hit you," thank you very much!

First my disclaimer: I am not the mother of a child who has ever hit, bitten or pushed.

But I disagree with the sentiment of this statement. I think one of the very cruxes of GD is that we GD all of the children that we meet. We don't "save" non-humiliating dialogues for our own kids, we spread the message to all children that we come into contact with because of a belief that all children should be treated with dignity and respect. If the message is given to someone else's children "when you misbehave you are shunned by society" then how can we really call ourselves Gentle Discipline parents? Or is the very definition of GD something that we only practice with our own kids? For me it is not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
I'll tell my teenage daughter that ANY hitting by a boy/friend is wrong; why should it be different when she's a toddler?

It's not different in the sense that you should tell your child that hitting is wrong, regardless of whether she is a teenager or a toddler. But you can't attach the same consequence to a full grown adult being a hitter and a toddler being a hitter, can you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
And I will NOT allow her near others' cats, or to a pet store or cat show or anything; that would be violating my social-contract duties to protect those cats, see?

I don't agree with this but of course it is your decision and your right. I don't think the solution to curing life's ills is by isolating and never exposing people to situations that are tempting - I think it only makes it worse.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
*asherah*, I hear that you But, see, my 2yo, if hit, can't differentiate between a hitter with "abusive intent" -- someone who wants to cause harm -- and a hitter who's "just testing." She still gets hurt by someone she trusts. It's all abuse to her, and so it is to me. We have a zero-tolerance police for "bad touches," abuse, in our family.

I think the thing that separates "abuse" from "hurting" is intent and I think that it is a critical distinction. It's sort of the difference between murder and manslaughter - if you accidentally hit someone with a car and they die, you are guilty of manslaughter. If you run over someone purposely, it is murder. Exact same results, two different mindsets. These types of distinctions are important in a society.

I think the answer to this question can be found in our own definitions of what gentle discipline is - if you feel that it is something to be practiced within the confines of your own family then isolation may be the solution. If you feel it is more of a "village" practice, then isolation will not feel like the correct solution. Either way, I thank you for starting this thread because it has given me much food for thought.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

But there is a world of difference between a 4-5year old that kicks a 2 year old, and another 2 year old hitting someone their age. A 4-5 year old has the cognitive ability to know that when they kick someone, that other person feels pain. A 2 year old is just starting to realize that they _are_ a separate entity from everyone else. They haven't yet grasped that when they hit, it hurts. That's why Captain Optimism's suggestion of how to deal with it (when you hit, it hurts, look, she's crying) is such a good response. Isolating toddlers (and it is mostly toddlers that do this. And it is very common) is not the answer. That teaches them nothing valuable, and is likely to teach them that they are bad and can't have friends, etc. Better parental supervision is what is called for when a child is going through this stage.

I, also, very much disagree with the abuse label. That, to me, really is about intent. If I trip and stumble into my daughter and she falls down, that is not abuse. If I push her deliberately with the same results, that crosses a line. A toddler does not have the cognitive ability to abuse. Aggress, yes. Abuse, no.

But, I do understand your desire to protect your child from this kind of aggression. The thing is, your child is your responsibility. You are responsible for her actions and for her protection. While other parents should be monitoring their children well enough to prevent hits and bites, it isn't always possible, as in the cases stated previously. Either the child was too unpredictable, too fast, whatever. If you see something coming and the parent isn't reacting fast enough, it is your responsibility to protect your child and prevent the hit. Sometimes, we just can't. That's when we learn how to respond appropriately. Kids usually get over these sorts of things very quickly. I don't think it has to be a long-lasting traumatic event for them. Learning how to use their words to defend themselves, having a parent sympathizing when they do get hurt, and protecting them when they can. These are the things that stick with a child.

Bec


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:

Oh, and my child has never hit or bit [I don't think it's that common for kids to do it, but I'm no statistician], but she *has* pulled the cat's tail, and you can believe she gets the "bad touch! that hurts the kitty! please say you're sorry" lecture for it. And I will NOT allow her near others' cats, or to a pet store or cat show or anything; that would be violating my social-contract duties to protect those cats, see?
I think it is better to take the opportunity to teach your child how to touch a kitty the right way instead of banning them from cats. My dd pulled cat tails and fur and we told her no, did not tolerate her hurting an animal but worked on teaching her how to touch the kitty nicely. We did not just dump her in a room full of cats though. There was a lot of supervision. If we banned her completely from cats how could she learn that?

My dd never bit or hit another child- she was the target of some pushing. The child who did that outgrew it. Dd did hit or bite me around the age 2 but not other kids. We did not feel the need to do playgroups though. I wonder if some kids are just not ready for such group peer socialization. I think until they are 3 they don't really play together anyway so probably get less out of it than their parents do.
I would not say that a child should automatically be isolated based solely on past behavior. I think that is unfair. At the time the behavior happens there should definitely be a reaction from the adults present to indicate that that is not acceptable.
If they respond to that and there are no more problems that day then I wouldn't have a problem with the child being there. However, if they clearly are not handling being in the situation for whatever reason (overwhelmed, hungry, tired, etc) and are taking it out on other kids they should leave asap. Maybe they aren't ready for playgroups... maybe they'd do better with older kids... maybe they'd do better in a couple of weeks... maybe they have something going on that is causing them to act up. I do think it is irresponsible and selfish of the adult to just plop the child down in another spot and let it happen again and again instead of paying attention to how their child is behaving.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
I read in my favorite parenting book about how to deal with children biting other children. One of the things they said (Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, that's the book) was that it's important for the child who has been bitten to get encouragement to say "no" to the biter or to otherwise repair the situation, and for the biter to get information ("When you bit little Yana it really hurt her, see she's crying.") and a way to repair the situation ("What do you think you can do about that?") And then, if the biten child doesn't want to play with the biter anymore, to explain why. I was happy to get advice about how to deal with being the parent of the bite-eee as well as the parent of the biter, because I am guessing I'll be on both ends of this--based on the experiences of other parents and children I know!


I just read this section of this book and really appreciate it. DS good friend bites and hits. The hardest thing I experienced concerning this was my DS feeling of being a victim. I hated how he felt powerless. We stopped playing with the toddler in either one of our homes (because it brought up personal ownership issues) and get together on the playground area -less tension. Now that I have read about this tool - teaching DS to tell friend to STOP or NO, I am going to try to get together with her more often. Let me clarify that I don' think that it is DS job to controll his friend's behavior, but he will greatly benefit from letting her know how he feels.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I just can`t for the life of me understand why someone wants to call a 2-3-4 year old CHILD abusive because they do what most children at one time or another does.....

Maybe American children are different, Seasons, but let me assure you that here in Norway it`s VERY normal for a small child to hit and bite.

My son is 3,5 years old, and we go to something called open daycare 3 days a week. It`s a daycare where the parent is with the child all the time. It is like a playgroup, with usually somewhere around 20 kids.

Every child there over the age of 1-1,5 years old has hit/bitten another child. Most of them has done so several times. My son,too.

What we do about it?

We make sure the bitten/hit child is ok, explain to the biter/hitter that it is not acceptable to act like that, and move on. If someone is particularly angry/frustrated/energetic that day, and bites/hits many times, they are removed from the other children for a while.

I think it`s totally normal, and so does every other mom I have ever talked to about this. And every parenting book I have ever read, talks about this a normal thing that will pass when the child gets a little older.

And I agree wholeheartedly with what Asherah said.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Hmm. My DS just recently started hitting. He hit my good friend's DS a couple of times, the last time they were over.







I can tell you, my outlook on toddlers who hit has changed drastically since my DS became one of them.

It may help to know these kids aren't "bad". He can be very gentle and loving and sweet. He can also sometimes haul off and whack a kid with a block.







: He is learning to control himself, appropriate ways to express himself, etc. He is only 2 years old and he doesn't always know how to handle his emotions. He is not deliberately malicious or cruel.

Now, I know this doesn't make your DD, who is also 2, feel any better. I don't really know what to say, as far as my obligation to protect your DD from my DS goes. I agree that it is not fair for her to be hit. But it's also not fair for my DS to sit home in isolation for behavior that, while unacceptable, is still a totally normal toddler thing to do. He needs to learn how to act in social situations. On the other hand, I don't expect you to offer up your daughter on the chopping block so my son can learn a lesson at her expense.







This probably will not come out right. But maybe they both can learn something from these unpleasant encounters. Your DD will, in the course of her life, run across people who do things she doesn't like. How will she handle that?

Basically, if my DS starts routinely hurting other kids, I would stay home for a few days. But to say we should stay home until he stops hitting completely isn't realistic, IMO. I am grateful to parents who understand the situation we are in and are patient with us as we work through it. In the meantime, I do my best to protect the other kids by watching DS like a hawk. And if he hits someone, I make sure the other kid is comforted and apologized to, and I make sure my DS understands he did something wrong. It's the best I can do.

I really, really hope this phase ends soon. Actually, today he was mad at me and while he swung his arm like he was going to hit me, he didn't actually do it. I consider that a step in the right direction.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I don't think young toddlers going through a phase of hitting or biting should be quarantined, just watched closely. My DD was bit on the nose by a little boy at the mall play area by an 18 mo when she was 11 mo. It hurt, of course, and left a mark that was there for several days, but after 2 minutes of nursing she was back playing and perfectly happy. The mother of the little boy who bit her was very apologetic, took her boy aside and talked to him, probably for the umpteenth time, and had caught him very quickly when it happened, quicker than I did, because she was watching him closely.

In short, such incidents don't really do much long term harm, imo. Now, in a situation where the parent can't be watching super-closely, such as a friend of mine's little boy who went through a biting phase, a change might be in order. She was the LLL leader and after her boy bit another baby on the head at two meetings in a row, she stopped taking him to meetings. He still got plenty of exposure to other children in the form of his older brothers, and she didn't curb other outings w/ him where she was able to pay closer attention.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Ok, first, of all, let me say that I do not beleive for one second that there are ANY 2 year olds walking around who have never hit or pushed anything in their entire life. I hear that all the time and I just don't buy it. Sorry. Little kids hit sometimes. They do it for many reasons, mostly because they don't know any better.

So far I've had one child who was a hitter, and one who really wasn't. But I'm defining that loosely, because they are young boys, and they wrestle and push and grab and tackle each other all the time.

I suppose I agree with what all the other mamas have said. It makes me cringe to hear a toddler labeled as an "abuser". And I don't think children who are the hitters should be isolated. They need the interaction, and interaction is the best way for them to learn boundaries, from both their peers and other adults as well as their parents. One thing that I have learned from having siblings - and some people might disagree for me, is that *hitting* and *being hit* (by another toddler, I mean) seems to be another important part of toddler interaction. Its a very crude and early way of learning about whats right and wrong, consequences and social boundaries.

I think whats important is how we as adults, treat the children, and approach the situation. I usually try to do so with non judgement and distraction. Say, for instance, at LLL another 2yo throws a book at my son Makai's head. i would say, "Ouch, that hurt Makai. Makai are you okay, do you need a hug? Hey, would you guys like to read this book ?"

I hope that answers your question. I feel like I'm rambling now, so I'm gonna go...


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I'll say this. My DS had horrid behavior as a young child. Hitting, pushing, screaming, freaking out.

I kept him away from other kids. We hardly ever left the house.

It seemed like the only conscientious thing to do.

I still avoid certain circumstances that will freak him out. It is a matter of consideration for other people and their enjoyment.

I have met mothers who were so obsessed with the whole socialization thing though, and are so determined to put their child in the center of a crowd of children, that they're blind to any bad behavior from their own child.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Quote:

I have met mothers who were so obsessed with the whole socialization thing though, and are so determined to put their child in the center of a crowd of children, that they're blind to any bad behavior from their own child.
I suppose every one has different definitions of what "bad" behavior is, or if it even exists in the case of a small child.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

I'll add a coupla quick replies/clarifications, but mostly, you guys know my opinion by now and we all know we won't reach consensus --







-- so I'll let others talk.

1. Our GD duty to other's kids

*lovebeads*, you have a fascinating collateral question, that I've been thinking of, too:

Quote:

We don't "save" non-humiliating dialogues for our own kids, we spread the message to all children that we come into contact with because of a belief that all children should be treated with dignity and respect. If the message is given to someone else's children "when you misbehave you are shunned by society" then how can we really call ourselves Gentle Discipline parents? Or is the very definition of GD something that we only practice with our own kids? For me it is not.
And for me it is not. I don't hit ANY child, and the lecture I gave my child about the cat's tail -- "no! bad touch!" -- was in the same tone of voice I use with stranger kids: firm, not yelling.

BUT my job is not to teach other kids; it's to teach and protect my own. To the extent I can fully parent my own and add to other kids' experiences (like when I was reading a story in public yesterday and other kids came to listen), groovy. But many times I cannot give attention to others' children without taking eyes from my own dd (like when we are on the playground, and 4- or 5yo kids ask "watch me!" the way they do, but I am busy in imaginary play or songs with my child). Oh, so my "bad touch!" lecture to my child will include "that hurts the kitty; can you say 'I'm sorry' to the kitty?", but I keep it just at "no! bad touch! go away!" to a stranger kid, and the focus again is MY kid, showing her how to protect herself, modelling. It's then the stranger's mom's job to talk about empathy, apologies, behavior & consequences.

And I call myself GD, despite promoting "shunning," because I strongly believe in teaching consequences. My toddler's train went bye-bye for a while when she threw it; she was denied the opportunity to play with it as a consequence. If she hit a friend, she'd be denied the opportunity to play with that friend (first hit) or any peer-age/victimizable friends (second hit) until I knew the phase was over. She could still *play* -- in the first instance, with other toys (unless she threw them too) or in the second instance, with me/much older kids.

I wonder how much of this conversation could be informed by a day-care provider's point of view (because many mothering.commers do not use daycare and are unaware of necessary large-group rules)? My very good friend J is one; she notes:

Quote:

At the center, we had a 3 strikes rule. If a child bit once, their parents were informed. If a child bit again within the same week, their parents had to come get them for the rest of the day. If a child bit a third time within the same week, they were not allowed to come back until the next Monday. Period, absolutely no exceptions. I think that there's a line between biting out of frustration once in a while and biting to get your way (which is when it becomes a nasty habit, IMO).

If a child can't be expected to behave (at whatever level is appropriate for their age) then something needs to be done and maybe removing them from the fun of playgroups or whatever is the best consequence. If you can't play nicely with your friends, you don't get to play with your friends. Makes sense to me.
2. My isolating my kid from other cats after she pulled tails

Re: my kid's cat-tail pulling, I isolated her from *other's* cats. We have two at home. I liken the situation to a biting kid who can't yet be trusted to play with friends/strangers, but who still plays with siblings, because the *mom of the potential victim* in both cases is choosing the contact, the risk of socialing the abuser. But I think it my duty to protect cats who haven't entered into our home's social contract.







(And my cats, who preexisted my toddler, may say I already broke that contract by birthing her, but never mind...)


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## mamapajama (Feb 9, 2003)

asherah said:


> I personally have a pretty big issue with describing a two year old as "abusive."
> 
> yes I really agree with that. And having a very social ds who is 2.5 who sometimes hits and pushes, I would never call him abusive. He is a toddler learning limits and self control. I do supervise him closely, but sometimes he succeeds in hitting someone or pushing someone. We apologize, but I would never isolate him from others. How would he learn social skills


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## mojomom (Mar 5, 2003)

I understand wanting to protect our own children from situations that would hurt them, I really do. But I think as a parent who practices GD, it goes against my concept of GD to label a small child as an abuser for biting or hitting another child. First I think you really need to educate yourself on while small children bite and hit, it is usually out of fustration and being overwhelmed in a situation. it is usualluy because the young child has not yet developed the abilty to communicate verbally what is bothering him or fustrating him about the situation.
I just don't believe a 2-4 yr.old child walks into a playdate situation scans the room for a "victim" to hurt for no other reason then to cause that child pain. When you label a child an abuser that is the before mentioned situation you are describing. Also to help a child who bites and hits, i feel they need to be in situations with other children where the parents can help the child verbalize what he is feeling without having to get physical.
Neither of my 2 children bit or hit. Good for me? I don't know or really care, honestly. I have been exposed to enough children and parents to know that if my children were bitters or hitters, it was just a phase that would pass. It is NO reflection on the parent if there child is a hitter or biter.

Also another lesson I have learned in my 8 years of parenting so far is, To Never Say never. as parents we will all have moments when our child will do something to another child, argue, fight, not share, hit or bite. it is all a part of their learning process.

Also JMO- but I am really bothered by the labeling a small child an abuser, to me it such an unbablnced way to view a child.







:


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamaya*
Ok, first, of all, let me say that I do not beleive for one second that there are ANY 2 year olds walking around who have never hit or pushed anything in their entire life. I hear that all the time and I just don't buy it. Sorry. Little kids hit sometimes. They do it for many reasons, mostly because they don't know any better.

I never said my kids haven't hit or pushed each other but they have NEVER hit or pushed other children outside of their siblings. And they don't bite, period. Belive what you wish but that is a fact. I beleieve there are children out there who don't saying that they all do that wouyld be saying they all have the same exact personality. Children are differant it's not like it's a bad thing so why so why is it so unbeliavible? I can see a really shy sensitive child never having taht kind of encounter, and I can see smarter (more mature) children thinking better on testing the patience of a stranger. I guess I'm just a little confused on why it would be unbelievible.Kids have too many diffreant personality traits to lump them all together.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

As the parent of a recovered hitter, occasional aggressor and her newest victim, three-month-old ds, I feel well positioned to respond. For a fuller appreciation of the issue, I recommend having a few more kids. Chances are, one of them will end up hitting or biting another.

When we were in the thick of the hitting stage (14-18 months), I did curtail our socializing. I stopped going to playgroups, but continued one-on-one dates, which dd seemed to handle better, and privileged dates with older children, who were never targeted.

That said, I didn't think of dd as an abuser! I didn't think that her behaviour was a manifestation of some other problem. I didn't think it was abnormal. I'm already thinking ahead - how will I handle it this time around if baby ds has the same problem?

I have to echo the pp who said that we, as parents, learn to never say never, over and over again. Until recently, I was proud to say that whatever I'd endured (tantrums, hitting) as a mother, at least I never had to parent a biter. That is no longer true. I've also watched other peoples' sweet toddlers turn into bordering-on-violent kids. Each age has its challenges.


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

OK, my son has never bitten or hitten anyone but can I say WOW, the sheer thought of asking someone to isolate their child for simply being a child is so wrong to me. Child are ego centric beings with poorly developed social skills, and when they are together there are going to be conflict, and throw in lack of verbal ablities to express themselves there are going to be hits and bites, not that it is alright to continue to let them hurt others, parents should always discipline by distracting, removing and talking to them, but the thought that they should be isolated for a period of time? How will they ever learn to correctly interact if never given the opportunity. Our children are not raised in a perfect bubble, we can't isolate them from someone ever hurting them. They need to learn how to work throught conflict and to grow from it. How will the "victimized" child ever learn to speak up for herself if never given the opportunity.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Does anyone have a kid who has never been bit or hit by anyone? Just a thought.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

I have worked in early childhood education for 10 years, we employ developmentally appropriate practice in everything we do. Aggression in toddlers is NORMAL. The concept of excluding children of toddler age for aggressive behaviour is not taking into consideration this natural developmental stage of the young child. In all my years of Daycare, I have never seen a toddler that has not exhibited some form of aggression! We have had parents ask us to kick out certain children that started biting, only to have their child become one of the worst offenders. It is our job as adults to supervise our children closely-acts of aggression can become teachable moments. Excluding children is a band-aid approach. Toddlers do not have the capacity to understand why they are being excluded, and really, how is a parent supposed to ensure their child won't bite or hit, again? We can hover over children's play all we want, but it will still happen sometimes. We need to learn to deal with it in an assertive and loving way.

My son comes to daycare with me. He has been both the victim and the aggressor. Both are upsetting to me but also opportunities for growth and learning. There is no way you will ever be able to prevent your child from getting hurt by other children unless you isolate them from other children completely. Why not empower them instead?


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Sorry to respond to the same thread twice but what I don't understand is why it is a big deal to limit social play for a brief period of time? One pp said that young children don't know why they are being isolated - I don't even think that they would know they are missing anything (nor would they be ISOLATED if they are with their parents/siblings) if you decide to skip playgroups for a couple of months. I didn't do any playdates at friends houses for about 6 months because I just felt like sharing was a rough concept for my kid and other kids his age at that time....we met at the park, we met at the library, we met at places where the toys and turf were neutral.

Likewise, we have embraced not eating-out, not going to movies, etc. etc. etc. at various times. Now my big kid is great to have a nice meal with or go to the movies with and my toddler isn't. I guess my point is that it seems like playing with other kids is tough for some kids at a certain age so why do we MAKE them? Because we are lonely and want to chat? Because we are afraid it somehow makes them not easy to get along with or something?

I am not meaning to sound combative, I just really wonder as I have wondered the samething with some friends/neighbors in the past. To me it isn't avoiding a problem anymore than keeping a babygate at the top of the stairs until my babes are big enough to go down safely.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
And I call myself GD, despite promoting "shunning," because I strongly believe in teaching consequences.

Seasons, with all respect, you may call yoursel GD but there is no room for "gentle discipline" and "shunning" in the same sentence. Gentle Discipline is not about isolation and shaming. Teaching consequences - yes. If you are out with your child and your child bites another, you may choose to leave the place. That is a consequence. But to isolate your child for a period of time, whether it is days or months, from social contact with other children deprives them of the thing that is most important for them to learn at a young age - appropriate social interaction.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
If she hit a friend, she'd be denied the opportunity to play with that friend (first hit) or any peer-age/victimizable friends (second hit) until I knew the phase was over.

How will you know when it is over unless you expose her to other children?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
I wonder how much of this conversation could be informed by a day-care provider's point of view (because many mothering.commers do not use daycare and are unaware of necessary large-group rules)?

I don't dispute the methods that your friend uses in day care but mothering one's own child is not comparable. I'm quite sure that when a daycare worker is sick, she tells the other children "you can't come here today, I can't take care of you." No mother has that luxury.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Re: my kid's cat-tail pulling, I isolated her from *other's* cats. We have two at home. I liken the situation to a biting kid who can't yet be trusted to play with friends/strangers, but who still plays with siblings, because the *mom of the potential victim* in both cases is choosing the contact, the risk of socialing the abuser. But I think it my duty to protect cats who haven't entered into our home's social contract.









So I'm trying to understand: when you visit a friend who has cats, you lock your child in a room? Or do you lock the cats away? I would assume that the tail puller is not being placed in isolation. I think you would have a very different feeling if you had a friend who wanted to come and visit you and bring her cat but wanted you to lock your child up so that she wouldn't pull on the cat's tail. In essence, that is what you are asking mother's of biters to do.

In life, stuff happens. Human interaction and connection is the thing that we strive for the most. Kids get bitten, kids get pushed, kids get hit. The thing that makes us grow as people is learning from the things that happen -not avoiding them. It is our job as parents to use these moments as teachable times to grow our children into young adults. Has any book, magazine, tv show or movie prepared you for the experience of motherhood the way becoming a mother has? Of course not! There is no way to know certain things until you experience them and the slippery slope of isolating children for exhibiting age-appropriate behavior is just not one that I can agree with. The next thing that happens is you start to wonder why people aren't isolating their children when they have a cold, or a different opinion, or an allergy. I just can't agree that isolating children is ever a solution.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Quote:

I have worked in early childhood education for 10 years, we employ developmentally appropriate practice in everything we do. Aggression in toddlers is NORMAL. The concept of excluding children of toddler age for aggressive behaviour is not taking into consideration this natural developmental stage of the young child. In all my years of Daycare, I have never seen a toddler that has not exhibited some form of aggression!
Thank you! This is exactly what I meant. Jeca, I wasn't trying to point you out personally. I think its great that your kids have never hit or bit another child. But you said they do hit each other. I suppose what I meant is that all young children will act aggressively in some form or another at some point. of course, I beleive that all children have their own separate personality traits.

My older son would be a good example. He used to play with a little girl that I never saw hit anyone. However, she did not play very nice AT ALL. Everything he picked up, she would take, she constantly bossed him around, screamed in his face, threw tantrums, tattled on him for no reason, even lied just to get him in trouble. Eventually, he would start to feel so nervous and irritable around her that he would throw something at her, or push her, or whatever. He doesn't verbalize his feelings very well. In this situation, it was best to separate them for awhile. However, what eventually worked best was to let them play together with ALOT of adult supervision. Both her mom and myself had to watch very carefully to see when things would explode, and help them learn to talk things through. Now that they are older, they are both very sweet children, and play together just fine. Can you see how just removing them both from the situation, and never letting them play together ever again would have solved nothing?

Neither of them was an abuser. Neither of them were abused. Sure, its hard to see your child get hit, or called a name, or not get invited to a birthday party, or left out on the playground, or not get a date to the prom. But thats parenting!!!! You can go your whole life thinking the worst about these things and judging other people's children and parenting, and taking your kids away from whatever situation. Or - you can teach them that its part of growing up, its life, its how you treat other people that matters, and stop sweating the small stuff


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

The thing about aggression is that it is instinctual. It is in our nature to fight when we feel threatened--or to take flight, but that's another thread. It is not in our nature to work things out initially. That's our learned response. And so to remove a person and not teach that person to work things out in a nonaggressive manner is potentially more devastating over time. Sure, one could argue that isolation with the parents until the child has learned to work through things nonverbally is the preferred response, but really, how many of us parents are going to purposefully threaten and provoke our children so that they learn it? We're not going to do that because that in and of itself would be aggressive and counter to what we're really trying to teach. I do see your point, but in the end I don't think it's effective. It's one thing to isolate within the situation itself and discuss, redirect, etc., but to keep the child from learning what s/he really needs to learn ultimately doesn't make sense.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamaya*
Sure, its hard to see your child get hit, or called a name, or not get invited to a birthday party, or left out on the playground, or not get a date to the prom. But thats parenting!!!! You can go your whole life thinking the worst about these things and judging other people's children and parenting, and taking your kids away from whatever situation. Or - you can teach them that its part of growing up, its life, its how you treat other people that matters, and stop sweating the small stuff










You know, I think this is going too far in the other direction from the OP. Jeca's daughter got really physically hurt by the child who bit her. I don't blame the child for not knowing that he shouldn't bite, but I would not want my child to play with someone whose parents were as relaxed about biting as what Jeca described. I would want to see a positive resolution after a situation like that, not merely "we don't bite" and okay, bye. You know? It's got to go further--the child who was bitten has to be empowered to say something and the biter has to be helped to some kind of empathy and alternative behavior. Parents or adult observers need to cooperate to make that happen.

I am not judgemental of parents whose toddler-aged children bite or hit, even repeatedly. I'm judgemental of parents whose toddlers bite or hit and who don't intervene. It's normal for toddlers not to be able to restrain themselves, but we help them get ready and gradually learn self-restraint and how to cope with the world around them.

(And YEAH I do think you can label hitting and biting as "bad behavior"--come on! If they aren't bad, then I'm going to enjoy a lot of hitting and biting in my next argument with my husband!







)


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I think that kids who are dangerous to other kids ought to be very closely watched at all times by their caregivers when around other kids. period. So if you have a 2 year old who likes to pick up a handful of sand, walk over to a peaceful 3 year old, and fling the entire handful into her face, then you need to anticipate that and prevent it.
this is based on a real situation. I had no idea this 2 year old was going to do this. it was clearly a problem of his because before we could even react, he did it again. then his mom screamed at him. "bad boy bad dont throw sand i told you that already!" like telling him in a screetchy voice is going to help! and he laughed. nice. my daughter's eyes were okay but she could have been damaged. and that is not acceptable.

when they're so small that they cant control themselves, and at the same time if they havent been taught not to throw dirt in peoples faces/hit/bite, then the 'rents need to be ready to intervene if necessary.


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## MommytoMJM (Aug 3, 2004)

I want to preface my answer a bit....My daughter is a Special Needs Kid (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome relates specifically to this particualr topic, tho she has other disabilities as well) FAS kids almost always have problems with impulse control, that part of their brain just doesn't function well or at all in some cases. DD knows it is wrong to hit, is always sorry for it, but literally cannot stop herself in time (she also can't stop herself from running into the street or touching a hot stove no matter how many times I tell her not to, the issue also happens with good behaviors that she can't control too). She usually doesn't hit hard, but occasionally she can. I have always intervened (before she hits, or after if I am not fast enough to get there before), make her apologize, kiss or hug the boo-boo if the child wants her to, reiterate that hands are not for hitting, etc. occasionally, I have to remove her totally if she is too out of countrol.....

All of that being said, before any play dates, get togethers, meeting new kids at the park, etc...I explain MJ's conditions to the parents and let them opt out if they want to (for some dealing with disabilities like this is just hard) and I understand that. If they still want to go ahead, I ask that they explain to their kids or I will if they like, that their kids tell me if she is hitting and for some reason I don't see it and ask if the kids have any questions (or the parents do) that they feel free to ask them, whatever they may be.

BTW: Lest you think she is a monster, MJ is really the sweetest most loving little girl and hugs waaay more often than she hits, but it is an issue we deal with frequently.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

I wasn't aware of any thread where Jeca's child was bitten. That really sucks. I'm sorry that happened. My child was bitten on the bum- of all places- by another child and it was really traumatic for him. I was just going by what I had written on this thread. Sorry if I offended. I don't really see how my statement was off from the original post - all I was saying is that you are going to see your child get hurt a myriad of different ways throughout their lifetime, and you won't always be able to isolate the other person, or your own child, so you need to work it out. Of course, if a child is biting someone they need to be removed from the immediate siituation. But isolating them from playtime with other children fro an extended period of time is just not something I would do. I can respect that others have different views than me...

Personally, I don't like to label children's behavior as "bad". Maybe wrong, but not bad. That puts too much meaning behind it. Its just my opinion, though. Other people can think whatever they want.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamaya*
Thank you! This is exactly what I meant. Jeca, I wasn't trying to point you out personally.

It's okay I didn't feel singled out. I was just a little onfused on why you though thatw ay. It's true my kid have hit each other but only over something(not that that excuses it in any way). I really wish I understood the reasoning behind fighting your siblings but not anyone else.I know that hitting, pushing is normal, the biting I'm on the fnece on cause they have never ever bitten and while I understand while a teething toddler may bit I am totally baffled why a four year old would bite a plug into a younger child.I was just totally taken back by the way she handled it. I was still pregnant at the time do that means yana was only 18months old. too too young for a 4yr old to bite and have nothing more said to him than "we don't bite". There are alot of good ideas in this thread that seem to be working. I already stated I don't think isolation is the key. I must say abuse is a strong word but I belive(and I could be totally wrong) that the word was used to describe a child with a serious history of biting and fighting.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm really bothered by the fact that you're calling small children who hit or bite "abusive." Hitting and biting are normal (if culturally undesirable) behaviors for a lot of children who are learning how to handle their emotions and how to socialize appropriately with others. And just because a child expresses frustration or anger physically at a young age does not make the child "troubled," someone who would act out in other ways. Luckily, my first child was not a hitter/biter. But some of her friends were, and I never expected their parents to keep them locked away from other children. Did I like it when my child was hit/bitten? No. Did I think there was something "wrong" with the kid or the parents? No way. I realized that this was normal behavior for many children and chalked it up to life experience for my daughter. One of my friends nearly left my house in tears when her son was hitting others at playgroup. ALL of the rest of us told her it was no big deal and it would pass. And it did, and none of our children were permanently scarred by being slapped by another small child.

My second child is a hitter (he learned the slap 'n grab, then run away as fast as possible, method of toy acquisition at the orphanage). I have no intention of isolating him from other children. I will just make sure I monitor him closely, and if he does hit another child, I will apologize to the parent and hope that the parent is understanding of child development.

Namaste!


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

*lovebeads* asks,

Quote:

So I'm trying to understand: when you visit a friend who has cats, you lock your child in a room? Or do you lock the cats away? I would assume that the tail puller is not being placed in isolation. I think you would have a very different feeling if you had a friend who wanted to come and visit you and bring her cat but wanted you to lock your child up so that she wouldn't pull on the cat's tail. In essence, that is what you are asking mother's of biters to do.
Until my dd gets over her tail-pulling stage, we don't visit friends with cats, because it's my social responsibility to protect those cats. (And we don't visit pet stores or cat shows or other places stranger-cats might be. My daughter DOES get to intereact with her "cat-siblings," with my supervision and permission.) That is what I'm "asking mother's of biters to do" -- to protect those who would be bitten/hit, by keeping the abuser away from victims until the phase has passed. As for your other metaphor, friends who visit, I've never had one try to bring their cats. I've had a few bring big dogs and -- as they were told or knew beforehand -- they had to leave the dogs outside, because the dogs had innate cat-chasing tendencies and I had potential victims, cats, inside. The dog-owners didn't complain about temporarily isolating their dogs, and I don't think it was wrong of me to expect isolation: it protected the victims, *regardless* of whether it's a teaching tool for dogs/toddlers. Flipping the situation, if I the cat-owner (analogous to "bitee" child's parent) tried to visit a dog-owner (biter child and parent), then I'd be -- er, foolish and probably cruel by bringing the cat inside. I'd be far better off, and kinder to my cat/child, to avoid the situation. (And that's what's cool about parents who TELL you they have a biter; you, the victim's parent, can decide whether to risk your child for the sake of socializing. On a playground, with strangers, we victims' parents don't get that warning.)

Many in this thread are focusing on the needs of the hitters/biters (and that's okay; thread discussions are fluid). I focused on the needs of MY child, the potential victim.

And since it was asked on page two: my dd has never hit or bitten another person (or animal), although she has pulled our cats' tails. She has never been hit or bitten (although she has been pushed and, this past weekend, kicked). None of these events happened in her daycare, which also has a zero-telerance policy (and a strict reporting system for all injuries), so either we've been really, really lucky in avoiding hitting kids (except in those few playground incidents), or the teaching and supervision at her daycare are a successful way of preventing abuse. Maybe both. Again, I don't know the statistics for how many kids hit, and that isn't my concern. Protecting kids from hitting/biting, is.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I think most parents of toddlers who have gone through the hitting/biting stage are interested in protecting other children, too.

Toddlers hit and bite. If you absolutely can't tolerate that, don't go around toddlers with your kid.

I'm perplexed and conerned about this repeated abuser/victim mentality. Doesn't seem applicable or healthy when discussing this age group.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

not all toddlers hit and bite. mine didnt. and I wouldnt expect any future kids of mine to be hitters/biters either. that said, if I do end up with a hitter/biter one day, I will make sure that s/he doesnt hurt anyone. it's not cool.


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## mojomom (Mar 5, 2003)

I agree. I don't think it is very balanced or GD way to look at children and the reapeated use of the words abuse and victim do not give your position alot of credibilty IMO. I can only speak for me.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
not all toddlers hit and bite. mine didnt. and I wouldnt expect any future kids of mine to be hitters/biters either. that said, if I do end up with a hitter/biter one day, I will make sure that s/he doesnt hurt anyone. it's not cool.

Of course not all toddlers hit and bite. But it is par for the course--as is tantruming, not sharing, etc. This is normal behavior for this age.

Why would you not expect your future children to hit or bite??

Who is saying that it is cool for toddlers to hurt other kids? I haven't seen anyone advocate that here. But, it is nearly impossible to avoid the occasional incident.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Why would you not expect your future children to hit or bite??

because I think a large part of my child's not hitting/biting was my parenting. I am absolutely intolerant of violence. And I think that had a big influence on my dd's behavior. But even if it is just random (and I don't think so) whether you get a biter or not, I think that expectations are critical. Children meet our expectations. I expect non violence. And not suprisingly, that is what I get.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boston*
because I think a large part of my child's not hitting/biting was my parenting. I am absolutely intolerant of violence. And I think that had a big influence on my dd's behavior. But even if it is just random (and I don't think so) whether you get a biter or not, I think that expectations are critical. Children meet our expectations. I expect non violence. And not suprisingly, that is what I get.

So you think the people here who have identified themselves as parents of hitters and biters all tolerate violence and expect that of their children? 'Cause that seems loonytunes to me--especially in light of their posts discussing the trials of dealing with it and trying to teach their kids socially acceptable behavior. But, that might just be me...


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## mommybritt (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
That is what I'm "asking mother's of biters to do" -- to protect those who would be bitten/hit, by keeping the abuser away from victims until the phase has passed.

Seasons, I see this as a totally unrealistic expectation and a very harsh punishment for both mom and babe. Fwiw, my dd has been the victim far more often than the aggressor and I *do* have expectations of parents whose kids are in the bitting/hitting phase. I expect the parents to be very watchful, to intervene when necessary, to have their child make amends by apologizing/hugging, etc if a hit/push/bite does happen and I expect them to know when to call it a day if necessary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Many in this thread are focusing on the needs of the hitters/biters (and that's okay; thread discussions are fluid). I focused on the needs of MY child, the potential victim.

Yes, and so do I. It is as much my responsibility, if not more, to keep my child safe as it is that of the parent of the more aggressive child. If a situation is getting hairy, *I* need to be right in there helping dd and if I feel that it's too much for us, I can redirect dd to another area (if we're in the park, etc) or I can go home. I feel it is very much my responsibility to teach my dd's how to deal with the unpleasant parts of life as well as the good stuff. I remind her to use her words, to walk away, to come get me for help, etc.

I have read several articles, books, etc that suggest that toddlers are human nature at it's most primal and violent and I have no problem believing that from my experiences. It is our job to teach them to how to control their impulses. Isolating a child for acting age-appropriately is shocking to me and counter productive for everyone


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
because I think a large part of my child's not hitting/biting was my parenting. I am absolutely intolerant of violence. And I think that had a big influence on my dd's behavior. But even if it is just random (and I don't think so) whether you get a biter or not, I think that expectations are critical. Children meet our expectations. I expect non violence. And not suprisingly, that is what I get.

woah!!!Come one, my children aren't biters or hitters either but to suggest that children who do display that type of behavior is beacuse they are witnessed to violence and poor parenting is ludicrious. Children mock everything not just their home surrounds. Children fight and bite for a variety of reasons most of which has nothing do with violent learned or witnessed behaviour.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca*
woah!!!Come one, my children aren't biters or hitters either but to suggest that children who do display that type of behavior is beacuse they are witnessed to violence and poor parenting is ludicrious. Children mock everything not just their home surrounds. Children fight and bite for a variety of reasons most of which has nothing do with violent learned or witnessed behaviour.

Is this directed at my post? I never said these things you are accusing me of saying. Where on earth do you get that?

I said that I believe my expectations, my parenting has prevented my children from behaving violently. And that if I'm wrong about this belief, then I will be one who protects others from my biting/hitting child. I didn't make some claim that parents of biters have exposed thier kids to violence or that they are sucky parents. stop being inflammatory.

monkey's mom, you too. I didnt say that all parents who have biters/hiters expect that. but a lot of people do seem to. and that probably isn't helpful in my oh so very humble opinion. thanks for playing try to piss off boston. it wont be working today.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Not trying to piss anyone off, just responding to somthing that I thought was absurd.

If you think that the way you parent created a toddler who did not hit/bite, then it would follow that you think that the way other people parent created toddlers who DO hit/bite.

I just think that's insane given the nature of the posts here. And offensive, to boot.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

well, your logic is impaired. sorry about that.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Why are you being rude?

I'm trying to understand what you meant. Either parenting is responsible or it's not. You seem to be saying that it is. I'm saying I don't think that's true and I don't like the implications of that.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
Is this directed at my post? I never said these things you are accusing me of saying. Where on earth do you get that?
.

I was responding to a direct qoute from your post. I qouted you in the original post that you just qouted me from. That's where I got it from.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
because I think a large part of my child's not hitting/biting was my parenting. I am absolutely intolerant of violence. And I think that had a big influence on my dd's behavior. But even if it is just random (and I don't think so) whether you get a biter or not, I think that expectations are critical. Children meet our expectations. I expect non violence. And not suprisingly, that is what I get.

Here it is. Perhaps you didn't mean for it sound that way but it certainly implies that parents of biters or hitters are the direct reasn that they are biters and hitters.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I think I have stated quite clearly, if not in my original post, then in subsequent posts, what my intended meaning was.

Better luck next time!

ps- (eta: For those with logic problems, check this out:
Denying the Antecedent)


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## inthesnow (Dec 8, 2004)

I think that it is important to remember that age-appropriate expectations are absolutely necessary.

My daughter that is almost 5 has never been a biter or a hitter. She did go through many stages of tantrum throwing, however.

My younger daughter who is 2 is a biter. Her bites are usually directed at her older sis. Perhaps it is because her verbal skills are not at the same level as her sis and she gets frustrated. Perhaps it is because she tends to get the reaction from her sister that she desires. I don't know why she is a biter.

HOWEVER I have practiced GD with both of my girls in the best way that I can. We do not condone violence of any kind in our home. We have never bitten, hit or hurt her in any way. She is just going through a very normal stage in toddler develoment. We are helping her through it and I am sure that she will not be biting her college roommate.

Children are all so different. That is such an obvious statement but I think that it is easy to forget. There is not some magic parenting formula that if you follow, just right, will give you perfect children. We are all growing and it is our job, as the parent, to NOT label or shun or blame. It is our job to kindly and consistently teach by example and with natural consequences.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I think there is a big difference between expecting that your child will hit or bite and understanding that it is a normal behavior if/when it happens. I had no expectation about whether my child's disposition or tolerance for frustration or ability to handle her emotions at a young age would make her a biter/hitter or not. I figured she'd be what she was. But that doesn't mean I would have been tolerant of that behavior, had it occurred. I would have "expected" that, with my guidance, she learned better ways to express herself.

Similarly, simply because I understand why and how my son is a hitter doesn't mean that I excuse that behavior. He is held accountable every time he hits, and I "expect" that the behavior will stop.

My daughter wasn't a non-hitter because she was well parented any more than my son is a hitter because he wasn't well parented. Hitting wasn't tolerated by the house moms at the orphanage, either, but hey, some of the kids hit anyway.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Having now read the entire thread, I'd like to add that you can't compare an adolescent or an adult of normal psychological development hitting someone to a toddler hitting someone. You just can't. Yes, hitting is wrong, but comparing the intentional act of someone who knows better and has the mental resources to formulate a more effective way of expressing him/herself with a baby is just not an accurate comparison. I don't think my husband should pee in his pants, and I wish my daughter didn't, either, but developmentally that's where my daughter is. My husband (thankfully) had developed beyond that level.









Also, I do think that young children differentiate between the behaviors of their peers and the behaviors of adults. My kids respond far differently to children's behaviors than they do to the same behavior in an adult.

Namaste!


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Hi, *dharmamama*.

Quote:

you can't compare an adolescent or an adult of normal psychological development hitting someone to a toddler hitting someone.
Well, in the limited context about which I posted -- _my daughter's_ point of view -- I _do_ parallel them. (Otherwise, of course we agree.







Else, why would we need to parent our kids?







) You say,

Quote:

My kids respond far differently to children's behaviors than they do to the same behavior in an adult.
I'm not so sure about that. I saw my daughter's bewildered face, and heard her cries, and understood her refusal to play again, with a certain playmate who pushed her. I think my daughter felt betrayal of trust, hurt, and fear just as if an adult had pushed her. (Luckily, she's never experienced that. If she did, mightn't any difference be attributable to the relative size of the aggressor, adults being far larger than she?) Versus, I see her hurt when, say, the staircase "pushes" her -- she falls -- and she has a very different reaction, frustration but not fear. As AP teachings counsel, I respect my daughter's feelings and think her capable of far more comprehension and emotion than her verbiage might indicate; she's a person, at whatever age, and I want to keep her from being hit.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

If A, then B. If a toddler is parented well, then they will not hit. This only works if not B, then not A. If a child hits, they were not parented well. IMO you can't say if not B then not A, so the assertion if A then B is not true. IMO.

And if you don't agree, my toddler will bite you.







:


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Boston, sorry, but I







'ed at your posts.

I was on my high-and-holy when my daughter was a toddler. I, too, was absolutely intolerant of violence on any level. I was utterly convinced that this is why she never hit/bit.

Now my second.... he is a very energetic, very aggressive 2 yo. His first instinct is to push... and he has hit a few times before. He was parented the same way.... and I am absolutely "intolerant" to violence. And guess what? Each kid comes here with their own personality and their own issues to work through. My kids are as different as two kids could EVER EVER be... and I mean that in all honesty. And they were both raised the same way.

And Seasons, I have to say that I have no doubt that your next will be a hitter or biter.







That's how karma works. I don't know how much experience you have with children, but it is a normal phase for a toddler to go through. A toddler doesn't know not to stick things in electrical sockets. A toddler doesn't know that walking on the ledge of a tall wall could get her hurt or killed. A toddler doesn't yet understand the actions and reactions to biting and hitting. It's life. It's a gamble. Kids are resilient. Hitting and pushing can provide valuable lessons to both the hitter and hittee... if dealt with appropriately.

I want to keep my kids away from lots of things. It's understandable that you want everything that could possibly damage your child locked away somewhere. However, it's not realistic. And it's not healthy.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I want to throw this into the mix....i posted early in the thread....

To the moms of kids who hits shove push outside say the normal toddler limits...how would you feel if your child was pushed or shoved back in anger by an upset child? I have seen other kids do that, my middle son being one of them. Andrew always had what i call a low tolerance even as a 3 yr old.

Does this reflect badly on my parenting? I certainly never encouraged it.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh man, it always makes me














: when people assert that their parenting is what has made their kids so nonviolent. I'm not just talking about this thread, I've seen countless times things like, "I just don't know why little Timmy's hitting/biting/kicking/spitting/pushing. I've never spanked him or advocated [insert above chosen behavior]!" It's one thing to wonder about it when your child is well into his/her teens, but I'm with others--if you have only one child, wait until you have more. If your child is two years or under, be careful, Humble Pie is often a bigger bite than you had in mind. Folks, kids are aggressive because it's normal! If your kid is not aggressive, thank your lucky stars! If your kid *is*, well, roll your eyes a bit, heave a sigh, and get in there and work on it (I'm in the latter category with one, the former with another). Does that categorize my parenting as schizophrenic?


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

A very good friend of mine has a daughter who was a pusher. We figured that she mostly pushed when she was frustrated and/or didn't have the words to say what she needed to say. Dd (same age) has been pushed by her many a time, and her response to being pushed and/or frustrated and not using her words is to deliver a stunning mini-tantrum. I have to admit that at first it bothered me that this girl was such a pusher, but then dd's reaction to being pushed also bothered me. I felt like she was dealing with her frustration at being pushed just as inappropriately as the pusher. We started schooling her on appropriate responses - "[NAME], don't push me!" and we would practice any time we were about to see this girl. Naturally, dd tried to avoid direct contact with the pusher, which I think is okay. Natural consequences for the pusher, and dd was learning to look out for herself by staying away. She also got to practice her "line" a few times, and it really helped! There was no tantrum from dd, and having dd say this seemed to actually affect the pusher (she was probably also somewhat dissapointed that she was not getting the spectacular reaction anymore from dd, LOL!). After a few months, by and large the pusher no longer pushes. She and dd play very well together, and dd has learned to more proactive about protecting herself (with her words and by staying away) because goodness knows I can't always do it.

Let me add to that during the time period when the pushing was most intense, we avoided situations where pushing and frustration (on the part of all the kids) was most likely - playdates at people's houses being the primary hot button. Once we started meeting at public places (outdoor parks mostly) where everything was bolted to the ground and no one owned anything, everything went SO much more smoothly.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Lotusdebi, thank you for answering my question


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

Whew I finally read through the whole thing. At some points I thought about just stopping reading and replying in an angry way, and at others I thought about just walking away. But all in all I was pretty fascinated to read what others had to say. I want to preface my post by saying that my son has special needs. He was damaged by an MMR vaccine, and hasn't been quite the same since. He has SID and a speech delay and it is hard to anticipate how he will react to any given situation. Up until his 2nd b-day he never hit. He did go through a biting stage while teething where he would chomp down on anything within reach, but we got through it, and it was never his intent to harm any one. (his mouth just hurt really badly) Then it happened all of the sudden my quite little boy who could be pushed over by a playmate and just get up and start playing again turned into a hitter. ANd a biter. I think several things atributed to the change. First there was the vacc reaction which caused him to have horrible headaches and lash out in an attempt to ease his own pain. Then there is the SID. Sometimes he just gets over stimulated and reacts by melting down and hitting/kicking anything with in reach. ANd last there is the frustration. He lost his ability to talk when he reacted to the vax and since gets rather frustrated when he can't make himself understood. Now if I were going to go by Seasons theory I would keep ds locked away at home all of the time. We wouldn't go to the park or the mall or the restraunt or anywhere else because ds could potentially get over stimulated and bite/hit/kick another child (just for the record ds has never actually kicked any one, he just flails his legs when he has a tantrum and sometimes he hits some one with them). So for the last year I would have kept ds isolated and he would have missed out on the chance to have socailly apropriate interactions and to learn why hitting/biting is not acceptable. I also would have missed out on learning what triggers his hitting/biting and how to aviod the triggers.

When ds bites or hits first I take ds out of the situation and explain the biting/hitting is wrong, and then I try to figure out why he is biting/hitting. Is he doing it because he is hungry or tired. Toddlers are more likely to lash out when they are uncomfortable in these ways. If he is hungry I feed him, if he is tired I take him some where where he can rest and sleep. Is he over stimulated, this is the most common reason ds hits or bites. Things get to active and loud and ds can't take it so he lashes out. If he is over stimulated I remove him from the situation. We usually stay home for a few hours or even the rest of the day. Is he frustrated. This is another big problem for ds. He gets frustrated, and he lacks the social graces and communication skills to handle his frustration so he hits. This usually happens when another child corners him, or takes a special toy away from him. I try to prevent other children from picking up or hugging ds when I can tell it will upset him, and when another child takes a special toy away from him I get it back for him and we put it up where it is safe. In most cases I can avoid ds ever getting to the point where he feels the need to lash out by keeping him well fed and rested, staying away from situations I know will over load his senses, and trying to keep him out of frustrating situations. But sometimes things still happen.

I recently had to quit working in the church nursery because it was too upsetting for ds. The running kids and the noise were just too much for him. We also had another litle boy who icessently bullied ds and the other kids. No matter how many times I told the child's parents what he was doing they wouldn't listen. Finally ds lashed out at him (the child, B, had stolen a toy from ds's friend, G, and made her cry, so ds hit him and took the toy back). B's parents threw a fit, and I decided that it wasn't worth it. Now I believe that B's parents should do something with B to help him understand that what he is doing is wrong instead of pretending that their child is perfect and never causes problems. But I dont' believe they should keep him home and never let him leave until he stops behaving this way, because if they do he will never learn to interact with his peers apropriately. They obviously aren't going to teach him and so some one else will have too.

For the most part ds is fine now. I know what triggers him, and I can avoid it most of the time. There have been times that I have taken him to do things and realized that he just wasn't going to be able to handle it and turned around and taken him home. There are times when I thought every thing was going well but I was wrong and he lashed out. I watch him very closely when he is interacting with other children, but I don't lock him away until this phase passes, because I believe that interacting with other children will help him get past it. I do want to protect other children, but I also want my ds to learn and grow. I think I am doing a very good job, and you will never know how hard it is until you have a child who hits and bites. And going by Karma I would guess that you next child will be a hitter and a biter.

Ultimately what I have to say is if you expect other parents to keep their kids home because they could possibly bother your daughter then I am afraid you are going to be terribly disapointed.

ETA: ITA with lotusdebi there is no excuse for older children who pick on and mistreat younger children, and for parents who ignore the bad behavior in their children. I try to stay on top of ds, and react quickly to any bad behavior and I expect other parents to do the same. And it irks the h&ll out of me when parents allow children who are much to big to be in the indoor play area to play unsupervised there. I understand when toddlers run head on into each other, or have a bit of shoving or hitting. But I don't think it is right to allow a 6 year old to run rampant in an area desinged and filled with small children, stepping on and pushing them out of the way.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiamnEmma*
Oh man, it always makes me














: when people assert that their parenting is what has made their kids so nonviolent...be careful, Humble Pie is often a bigger bite than you had in mind.

I can attest to this! With my first son, I was the one standing in judgement of all these "bad" parents, then along came ds#2! The sweetest little boy you could ever hope to know, but he went through a biting phase! I had to eat crow big time!









Seasons...your consistent use of words like "abuse", "violence", and "victim", is disturbing to say the least. These are _children_ we're talking about! Brand new people! They don't have the years of experience we have to draw from while going about their day. It reminds me of a book called "Paranoid Parenting". A good book (although, like most books, I don't agree with everything in it). One excellent point made in the book is fitting for this particular discussion...
"Throughout history children have been portrayed in many different ways-as savages, selfish little animals, resilient, _*or today, permanently at risk*_. These changes in perception are primarily the outcome of tensions that permeate the adult imagination and have had a great impact on how children experience their lives. _*Indeed, children learn about the world through interacting with and internalizing adult values and expectations.*_ Cognitive skills-thinking, conceptualizing, problem solving-are assimilated throught interaction with competent adults before they come under a child's control. The initiation of a child into the wider social world takes place throught the guidance of adults. How children think is inseperable from how adults imagine childhood...the point of this chapter is to outine how _*parental paranoia expresses adult anxieties in the guise of concern over children*._" (italics mine)

It seems that if you believe your daughter is a victim of an abuser (a, what 2 year old?) she will believe this also. I can't help but wonder what message this is sending out...if she is not around "common" toddler behavior now, because she is protected from it, what about all the other trials she will face as she grows up? Will she be looking over her shoulder for mommy to save her?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Hey, *Pigpen* (and others), I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to disagree on the nomenclature; neither camp is going to convince the other. I certainly think it's likely that my "all hitting = abuse" attitude affects my daughter, but I don't mind her thinking that, just as other mamas may think "getting hit isn't that big of a deal if the hitter didn't really mean it" and think it's okay if their kids internalize that.

As for karma, well, if you look back at my earlier posts (e.g., why I'm a single mom), you might agree that I certainly deserve some *good* fortune by now in my life. Having an amazing daughter is that goodness; I have no desire to stretch my own energy reserves, let alone "tempt fate," by having another child.









Finally, have no worries about

Quote:

if she is not around "common" toddler behavior now, because she is protected from it, what about all the other trials she will face as she grows up?
Remember (from earlier in this thread) that my dd is in toddler daycare (although she's never been hit/bitten there) daily without me, and that she encounters strangers on public playgrounds etc. (where she HAS been kicked, and which has been part of our "bad touch!" practice). Nonetheless, after hearing the choices made by many parents here, we'll be limiting our encounters with strangers from now on; I *do* want to restrict her direct exposure to violence. I do *not* believe it's necessary for her to acclimatize to being hit, and I don't think it's realistic to espect our "bad touch!" training to make her into some ninja fighter capable of physically rebuffing, and psychically ignoring, all blows. Sadly, there'll likely be plenty of time *later* in her childhood to learn that people hit.

Peace, mamas! It's certainly been an enlightening discussion.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
I do *not* believe it's necessary for her to acclimatize to being hit,

I don't think anyone has said that anywhere on this thread. If my daughter is kicked, hit, or bitten by a child, I do not just expect her to suck it up and accept it. I help her work out the situation and process what happened. What I don't do is act like it's a life-altering tragedy that will scar her for life, because it's not and it won't. I also don't teach her to be afraid of other children because they might occasionally be not nice.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but your comments about other parents' choices rubbed me the wrong way. We and our children are not a bunch of menacing brutes you have to keep your daughter away from.

Namaste!


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I finally read all five pages of posts.

Just wanted to say - I have a dd who will be 2 next month.

I have NEVER hit, pinched, slapped, pulled her hair, pushed, bitten or done anything else to her. And we are very gentle quiet people. And do not advocate violence in any regard.

Guess what???

DD - HITS, PINCHES, SLAPS, PULLS HAIR, PUSHES AND BITES other toddlers. And there's not much I can do except watch her closely and redirect!









Toddlers get rough, it happens. Some more than others. It's their temperment, not the parenting.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

How do the parents deal with it when your child does this?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Hey, *Pigpen* (and others), I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to disagree on the nomenclature; neither camp is going to convince the other. I certainly think it's likely that my "all hitting = abuse" attitude affects my daughter, but I don't mind her thinking that, just as other mamas may think "getting hit isn't that big of a deal if the hitter didn't really mean it" and think it's okay if their kids internalize that.

It's not the all hitting=abuse language that I find odd. It is the categorizing of hitters as abusers, and even more so the characterization of your daughter as a victim or a potential victim. You say she as been pushed once, been kicked once, never lashed out at another person, but has had some incidents with your kitties. Yet you consistantly cast her as a potential victim. I would find it equally odd if you were to refer to her as an animal abuser or potential animal abuser based on the couple incidents you mentioned regarding the kitties. I think it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy when you cast kids into roles like that. Anyway, that was my take on the whole "attitude affecting your daughter" thing.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

LiamnEmma - Your comment about children under 2 and humble pie really rang true for me







: Truthfully that maybe why my instinct is to just stay home and let these phases pass...my ds1 was such an awesome toddler - to the point that I took it for granted. I always made him share with the kids that couldn't share, was so impressed that he could get hit and come and tell me rather than hit back, whenever younger kids grabbed stuff from him I told him to be the big kid because they didn't know better, etc. etc.

Well right around 3.5 he had enough od getting pushed around - he is now almost 5 (and I know he should be completely grown and incontrol of all of his impulses???) and I think he is more work now than he was between 18 and 36 months (the months that seem to have a reputation for being difficult) He is easier now than he was a year ago but I feel like I need to be right on top of him becasue in many ways he is still a baby but just so physically BIG. It isn't as easy to be right on top of older kids because they move faster and by the time your kids are 5 and should be perfectly well-behaved you often have a younger sibling in tow.

Anyway, now that I have had a child who was more poorly behaved at 3-4 than he was at 2 years of age I have also learned not to assume I know anything about how kids who are older than mine should be acting. I also have friends with kids who are between 6 and 8 years old who say that those are difficult ages because the kids are often not old enough to know they are older than kids who are 4 & 5.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

How do the parents deal with it when your child does this?
If this is directed at my post - their children do it to. Toddlers are rough and impulsive. I come from a huge, extended family and lots of close friends with toddlers. We've all had our children be on the receiving/distributing end of teeth or a fist at one point (by another child, not us!).

We try to intervene before the biting/hitting/pinching occurs and closely monitor the situation to see if any little people are starting to feel frustrated or overwhelmed. Sometimes I don't get there in time and Zoe will have bitten/been bitten, but we make a big fuss of the "injured" child and move on with the next activity. Redirection. It's all you can do.

I'm not saying it's okay for children to do these rough things, but that they do happen and it has nothing to do with a child being violent or bad. I really dislike those words.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Hey, *Pigpen* (and others), I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to disagree on the nomenclature;

I had to go and look that word up! :LOL

Quote:

Nonetheless, after hearing the choices made by many parents here, we'll be limiting our encounters with strangers from now on; I *do* want to restrict her direct exposure to violence. I do *not* believe it's necessary for her to acclimatize to being hit, and I don't think it's realistic to espect our "bad touch!" training to make her into some ninja fighter capable of physically rebuffing, and psychically ignoring, all blows. Sadly, there'll likely be plenty of time *later* in her childhood to learn that people hit.
This part makes me sad. I get the feeling that it's black and white...kids who hit (once, twice, or 30 times) are "bad", those who don't are "good" and must be protected from the violent ones. Again, there _is_ a distinction between real "violence" and toddler behavior. Isolating a child from others when they hit or bite won't help. Just last weekend at our place of worship a little guy (maybe 2 years old) came up to me while I was walking my 11 month old dd. He stopped in front of her, gave her a really mean look then held up his fist and punched in the head! My first thought was to drop kick him (I'm only human, and this is my baby!). I got down at his level, looked him in the eye and said "we don't hit". Just then his uncle came and took him away. Later, this same boy came up to my dd while we were walking and very gently grabbed her other hand to help me walk her. I said thankyou and "how nice of you to help her". Now, if a grown man had done the same thing to my girl, totally different story. One is truly violent, one is not.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'll admit I am







and







at Boston's post.

Your comments were very insensitive in the context of this thread.

If I said my 8 year old was once a little hitter, because he felt secure and safe in my unconditional love for him, and knew he could trust me, in a thread like this, that would be a selfish, insensitive thing to say.

This isn't a discussion on logic. It's about parenting. You don't make yourself any more sensitive by arguing the logic of what you said.

Hitting, biting, kicking, hair pulling is *completely age appropriate* for toddlers.

What counts in parenting a toddler through this phase is not whether the toddler is gentle, but whether YOU remain gentle, firm, and involved as you guide them through this phase.

The OP does not seem to understand normal child development. Using terms like abuser and abusive to describe a 2 year old who hits is wrong. What a terrible thing to think about a toddler, and what a message to send to your own!

Most loving and involved parents of hitters and biters will do all they can to protect other children and educate their own. I'm sure that is true of the mothers in this thread. Going on and on about your own unrealistic prejudice on this issue is perplexing, and frustrating for parents in the midst of it. Is this thread helping you? What have you learned? What have you taught others?


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dodo*
Does anyone have a kid who has never been bit or hit by anyone? Just a thought.

Me.

Pure luck, I know. We don't shield her from the world. :LOL


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Hey everybody, thanks so much for all your input on this thread. As I have said before my just-turned-2-yr.-old. has recently started hitting. It is such a relief to see that mostly everybody sees this as a normal toddler thing. I have been treating it as such (though of course I am trying to teach him not to do it) and it is nice to see that others do too. Also it is reassuring to know that, chances are, other moms on the playground are not going to think horrible things about me and my DS if, G*d forbid, he hits one of their darlings! (Most of them, anyway.)

I know this is not at all what this thread was meant to do, but that's the value it had for me. Thanks mamas!


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I'm not saying it's okay for children to do these rough things, .

I'm glad you feel that way.

And yes, my question was directed at you. Thanks for answering


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I have to admit I am, uke at heartmama's post.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
What counts in parenting a toddler through this phase is not whether the toddler is gentle, but whether YOU remain gentle, firm, and involved as you guide them through this phase.

What also counts is not damaging another person. One of my family rules is we do not harm others. I am not talking about pushing and shoving and having tantrums and being unable to share. I am talking about dangerous behavior, like a fistful of sand in the face, or pushing a kid off the top of a piece of playground equipment. Need I really delve into what constitutes a real threat? God I hope not. It's not a confusing idea.

But I'll say it really slowly: Some kids are dangerous to others. If it doesn't apply to you, move on.

BTW. I think it's just darling how so many like to jump on my posts. When all I'm saying, control your dangerous kid if you have one of those. Please! A very simple request! If the shoe fits, wear it. If not...well....good!

And to all the ones who think my post is so funny because I suggest that I don't expect future kids to be violent, well...keep laughing. Cos I also said in my post that I acknowledge that one day I might be proven wrong. Keep skimming, though. Skimming gets you to the juicy bits that are the most fun to attack! And you thought I didn't know you! ;-)

Unsubscribing to this thread now. Its pointless.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
Unsubscribing to this thread now. Its pointless.

Thanks.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

LiamnEmma - Your comment about children under 2 and humble pie really rang true for me
Oh, where do you think I learned how big a Humble Pie really is?!







I had the sweet little toddler too. And when I was pg with dd, I took ds to Gymboree to give him some fun running around time as I waddled behind. There was a kid there though that my ds just set off for some reason. I have no idea why. Maybe mine gave him a quick poke in the ribs one day when I wasn't looking, I don't know. But this kid would suddenly catch my ds in the corner of his eye and literally run screeching across the room to tackle my ds. It was awful. I would stay close to ds, the other kid's mom stayed close to her ds, but sometimes we both lost track simultaneously and it would be mayhem for a few seconds. I was always very nice to her and her ds because I knew the mom was trying really hard to teach her tiny little guy (our kids weren't quite two years old yet) and the kid was so young and not at all that way with other kids. But I had bad thoughts in my mind about them and was absolutely _certain_ that _my_ ds (who was in daycare, mind you) didn't behave that way because of my stellar parenting. And then he turned two. :LOL Needless to say, I've eaten a lot of my words since then. And now, as a 5.5 year old, he's still a sweet guy, but is prone to wrestling his way through a crowd much to my chagrin and mortification, despite prompting, removal from the situation, nagging, cajoling, consequences, etc. So I'll just







: myself too, because even worse, I'm a school psychologist who specializes in preschoolers, and I _know_ this is normal behavior, and yet, I still judged!







Peace!


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

Famousmockngbrd I am glad this thread has helped you. I know it really helped me to talk with other moms and see that it really is a normal behavior. You can bring your ds to play with mine any time. :LOL

Season I really don't know what to say. I can't see how constantly painting your daughter as the "victim" is ever going to help her. The sad fact is that young women are more likely to be victimized than any other segment of society, and girls who already think of themselves as victims are more likely to be affected. I also don't see how painting 2 year olds as "abusers" serves any one. I am just glad that so many mothers who have posted here have a better grasp of child development. The facts are just the facts. Toddlers act out in ways that are not socialy acceptable. They have to interact with other children and adults to learn what are socialy acceptable behaviors. If you decide to keep your dd home because of what we have said, well that is your choice, but I definately won't be keeping ds home because it would make you more comfortable.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Boston, I came back to apologize for the tone of my previous post. It hit a really raw nerve with me; I think that's obvious by my knee-jerk reaction.

Quote:

I think it's just darling how so many like to jump on my posts. When all I'm saying, control your dangerous kid if you have one of those.
"Control your dangerous kid _if you have ONE OF THOSE."_ In all honesty, I am disturbed by such a sentiment, especially when it is said regarding toddlers. Not older kids, *but toddlers*.

I will take a deep breath and try to say this without offense: Every kid has some sort of issue. Some are more physical, some are more verbal. My first child was very verbal and never laid a hand on ANYONE... never even pulled a cat's tail. I chalked it up to my parenting. My second is a delayed talker and was quick to lash out without thinking. To say that my child is dangerous and a potential menace to society because he has a normal toddler impulse is beyond ridiculous... it's downright insulting. I don't see how you cannot understand that.

sweetbaby, in answer to your question, I am always quick to jump in and firmly reprimand. I remove him from the room for a couple of minutes and I let him know why. I tell him that he needs to use words and that it's never okay to put his hands on someone without permission. Then we rejoin the group after an apology to the other child. He doesn't continue the behaviors. If he were to do this repeatedly, I'd leave the group with an explanation about why we can't have fun with our friends today.

Just as it is extreme to say "isolate your kids because they're a threat to society", it is just as extreme to treat such violence nonchalantly. Extremes are usually a reflection of some sort of imbalance within ourselves that we need to work through.

I had an extreme reaction to a few posts here... and I realized it's because one of my deepest fears is having others judge me so harshly for something my child is working through. But now I realize I need to stop listening to those fears and be a more confident parent.


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## spearso (Nov 4, 2003)

haven't read the whole thread, don't have time, just the original post. I'm a mom to an almost 2-year old girl who hits/pinches. I don't know where she picked this up, we don't hit, and my oldest daughter doesn't hit, from what I can tell, it seems to be an attention thing... I don't really know. But to keep my daughter away from other children won't help the problem. When we have other children over, I monitor them, and I tell other parents to watch their kids, and I explain Hannah's tendencies. She's 2. She's not a serial killer. She's not sticking them with knives. Jeesh. If you have a problem with it, keep your child away from the aggressive child. All I can do is hope Hannah grows out of it, or learns to play nice, or whatever. I certainly don't intend to lock her up, that's absolutely ABSURD







: .

susie


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Candiland, thank you for your response to my question.

The reason i ask, is because of personal experience with my child being hit or bitten, and attitudes like those of Spearso's, who thinks *I* should keep *my* child away from her hitter/pincher. shouldn't it be the other way around?

I always assumed that parents of children who hit or pinch/shove whatever would be more like some of the concerned parents here of kids who do those things, Candiland, lotusdeb and the others....its just that there are so many parents who use the very real excuse of age appropriate aggressiveness as a reason to sit back.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

It sounds like you were very scared and upset for your dd by the recent incident.

I think it depends on the degree of the behavior. If a child is having a particularly hard time being around people on a certain day/week/month, perhaps it will save your child and others a lot of frustration by staying in.

In the long run, however, I do believe it's important to provide the opportunities for interaction so we can teach our kids how to interact with each other non-violently. Of course, this means constant supervision, intervention, etc. as other posters have already discussed.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

And yes, there have been times I have been annoyed with the other parent for allowing their child to behave inappropriately. But that is LIFE. Ultimately it is MY responsibility to protect my child, so no, I don't expect people to keep their toddlers in baby lockdown if they are going through these phases.
Coming in late to the conversation, but wanted to say that I totally agree with this.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

nak

Quote:

I was on my high-and-holy when my daughter was a toddler. I, too, was absolutely intolerant of violence on any level. I was utterly convinced that this is why she never hit/bit.
ditto.
For his first 3 years, ds never hit anyone. he has recently pushed or hit a few times (never bites) - still less than any other kid we play with, but i was still shocked. i used to be pretty uppity in my stance on aggressive kids, but have come down to earth once i saw my own very gentle, loving boy push someone. i think the OP will experience this at some point as well.

this is a good discussion, but a pretty silly topic, imo. Maybe totally out of control, violent kids should be limited in their contact with other kids, but that would be a rare child in my experience. The neighbor boy we play with hits and pushes constantly, but both my neighbor and I are vigilant about it. He is a sweetie otherwise, and I wouldn't want to deny my son the friendship with him that he enjoys.


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

I am very surprised by this thread. I admit, i have not read the entire thread, but nonetheless it seems so judegmental.

It is developmentally appropriate for a pre-verbal child to hit and bite when they are frustrated. It isn't socially appropriate, but it is totally normal. To categorize toddler/preschool hitting/biting as abusive and to somehow blame their parents seems really unfair and misguided.

It is the responsibility of the parent of the hitting/biting child to help their child in a group setting. However, sometimes you don't know that your child is a hitter or a biter until they do it for the first time. My DD, who is 2.5 years younger than my ds is a biter/scratcher. The first time she bit another child was when she was at her 1 year b-day party. A 3 year old gave her a hug and my dd went to kiss her cheek and bit instead. It really hurt, but was not mean-spirited. She just didn't know what to do with her mouth.

It has since become a bigger problem and has also resolved. DD is now 2. It has so much to do with my daughter understanding more and becoming more verbal.

For this last year, I shadowed my daughter and in any social situation, I would announce immediately that she was an aggressive child and should not be trusted. I expect other parents to give me similar information and was grateful when other parents listened and helped me help my daughter learn to be more gentle.

I appreciate other parents telling me important information about their children, whether it be that they are aggressive or that they are shy. That way I can appreciate that child at the stage that they are at, not just at the developmental stage I *think* they should be at. I want my children to play with other children and to learn to respect other people. Part of that is modeling that behavior, which would mean that I would respect where another child was at and help my child understand what is happening with that child. I might tell my ds or dd if they had been hurt or bit, "Wow, Suzie has really big feelings. She really wanted your ball. She forgot to use her words. I'm so sorry you are sad."

I have been on both ends of this stick. My son is incredibly sweet and gentle, but my daughter is sometimes down-right mean.

I have spent a lot of time helping both of them. If DD hurts someone, I make sure to comfort the other child, get their mother and point out to DD how they have hurt the other child. We talk a lot about using our words and what are feelings are and how our actions cause different feelings.

I step in if I see that a situation is deterorating and help my dd to find the words, like "my turn!". I also help my ds to stand up for himself and to help his friend respect his space.

All of my friends help me with this and we all jointly agree that no child is bad for hitting or biting in frustration.

Yes, parents need to be on top of this issue, but to blame parents or children for something so incredibly developmental is like blaming the parents for a child who falls while learning to walk.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

boston writes:

Quote:

Unsubscribing to this thread now. Its pointless.
When you hold a thread in contempt and view it as pointless, it comes across in what you post. If that is how you feel, I understand your need to leave the thread.

candiland writes:

Quote:

"The reason i ask, is because of personal experience with my child being hit or bitten, and attitudes like those of Spearso's, who thinks *I* should keep *my* child away from her hitter/pincher. shouldn't it be the other way around?

I always assumed that parents of children who hit or pinch/shove whatever would be more like some of the concerned parents here of kids who do those things, Candiland, lotusdeb and the others....its just that there are so many parents who use the very real excuse of age appropriate aggressiveness as a reason to sit back."

In a way you are both right. You have an obligation to keep your child safe. It isn't up to the other person. And you have an obligation to teach your child how to behave, that isn't up to the other person.

I think part of the problem is the "us vs. them" mentality. Very few children NEVER do this. Every parent should be paying attention when toddlers are playing.

I think there is a LOT of sympathy for the child who was hit, and if the hitting itself had not been so maligned in this thread, the discussion might have been more balanced. Some of the attitudes here were very unrealistic. Calling toddler hitting abusive and wanting 2 year olds kept in lockdown after second offense is going to put some parents on the defensive, kwim?

The best way to get empathy in a thread like this, where both sides have a valid emotional investment, is to empathize.


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## spearso (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Candiland, thank you for your response to my question.

The reason i ask, is because of personal experience with my child being hit or bitten, and attitudes like those of Spearso's, who thinks *I* should keep *my* child away from her hitter/pincher. shouldn't it be the other way around?

I always assumed that parents of children who hit or pinch/shove whatever would be more like some of the concerned parents here of kids who do those things, Candiland, lotusdeb and the others....its just that there are so many parents who use the very real excuse of age appropriate aggressiveness as a reason to sit back.

Umm no, I think it's my responsbility to monitor the situation, and I think it's *your* responsibility to monitor the situation. I don't care if my children are hanging out with the Pope, I'm still going to watch them. Regardless of the company, you're still a parent. And Hannah (remember, she's the ripe old age of 22 months) needs to learn to play properly, and I try to facilitate that. I do not shrug it off, and it really bugs me sometimes that she does it, but she's almost *2*!!!!

I wasn't saying that you have to keep your child away from mine, I was saying the OP has a choice. If someone who has a hitting child is hosting a playgroup, don't go to it if it bothers you so much. She was suggesting that someone who has a hitting child should not host playgroups etc. I'm saying you have a choice whether or not to attend.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

Well, I don't know quite what to think about this thread. I've been on both sides. DD was just over a year the first time she was hit by an older child, I was upset, and thought "my child would never do that" . Well, karma bit me on the butt, because at 23 months she is a biter, and has been for some time. She has bit 2 children, I watched a friends's ds this summer, and DD did bite him twice. She does not watch TV, and had never witnessed another child bite, so this behavior was not learned. The worst of it was one day they were at the table eating, and the little boy grabbed food off dd's plate (I was up getting more food), and she poked him with her little plastic toddler fork. Where did she get that behavior from? It's not like DH and I go around stabbing each other with forks. I believe it is normal toddler behavior born out of frustration, that doesn't mean that it is ok, but she shouldn't be keep away from other children becasue of it. I do watch her very carefully, and I always warn other parents, I apologize to the bitten child, take dd away and talk to her. She has recently befriended a older boy who does hit. She has been hit by him numerous times, and dd has bit him numerous times, even with us moms carefully watching them, it can happen in a blink of an eye. DD bites out of anger, everytime she has bit another child, it has been when the other child takes something away from dd. She really doesn't talk that much yet, I know it it related to that. If another mom doesn't want her child around mine, that's fine, it's her choice, but I am not keeping my child home on purpose. I do believe that it is my job to watch my dd, I don't expect another mom to make sure my dd doesn't bit her child. I do catch dd before the majority of the bites occur, but no I haven't been able to stop them all.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Like a few other children mentioned on this thread, ds never hit... well me a few times, but never other children. Until recently, anyway. He's just turned 4 and for the past few months has taken to hitting back at the little boy who I babysit (who hits, bites, and pinches quite a bit). He's been doing it because the little boy is not very verbal and, so, using his words doesn't work. He's always been the type to engage verbally rather than walk away, so that's what he does - he engages, tries his words, they don't work, and he can't break the need to engage at that point so he reacts physically. It's frustrating, yes. But it's a lesson. He's learning other ways to deal with a problem.

Ds has always had great learning from the occasions that he's been hit (or pushed, or kicked, or had sand thrown on him). Initially he learned that his mother would protect him and that it was okay (through me) to address other people who were doing something to you that you don't like. Then he learned how to stand up for himself. I provided the words when he didn't have them - "Ds, you can tell him/her, 'Don't hit me! I don't like it!'" It was very empowering for him. Now he's learning that when words don't work, we sometimes need to walk away.

How does a child learn to stand up for herself when she never has occasion to? I understand not wanting your child to experience being hit, but to shelter her from other toddlers because she might be hit may just be denying her valuable life lessons. Victims aren't necessarily once strong people who were beaten down over time. They're often victims because they've never learned how to stand up for themselves. Toddlerhood is a great time to start; and also a great time to learn the valuable life lesson that difficult things happen, we weather them, we transcend them, and we go on with life.


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## bente (Apr 1, 2002)

I will just copy what I wrote in the other thread. I do think children and babies should be protected from being hit by other kids, it is no different for them than it is for an adult!! I have been on both sides, like I said, my dd went through a phase when she was 18 months were she would hit any kid that came near her. We did take a break from playgroups, but not from seeing people all together. I am not talking about when a kid randomly hits and then it does not happend again. But when a child hits, the mother needs to be close to him so that she can prevent it.
My children do not hit. They will hit if put in a situation were there is hitting going on.

I felt so bad for the kids who got hit,when my dd went through her phase and we just stayed away from playgroups for a while. She got over the phase and has had nothing like that after, she is now almost 6.
I feel differently now about children hitting children, the more "AP" and gentle dicipline I become, I see my children as people, just smaller. They do not feel any less bad after being whacked by some kid out of the blue, then I would if I got hit by another adult. I used to be more "relaxed" about it. But now, after having som experience with my baby and child being hit, I just feel like we should try to prevent it. Sure, try to get to the bottom of the anger, and there is always a reason. The hitter should not be made to feel bad. But as parents we should make sure that the hitting does not happend, to the extent that it is possible.
The funky vibe that comes with hitting and watching my children trying to deal with the situation and becoming so agitated, has made me think "just make it stop", get out of the situation, dont leave your kids floundering to deal with this themselves.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Heartmama, i so appreciate your last post.

You are right, and it was never my intention to imply that i didnt have personal responsibility in watching over my child, but you said what i have been thinking, and trying to say.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Another poster already mentioned this but I wanted to chime in and agree with her. The only time I will be obviously annoyed is when the child is twice as old and twice as big as the person on the recieving end. Yana was only 18 months old when that four year old bit her, no excuse what so ever IMVHO. I thinkI would have tolerated it alot better had it been someone her own age. I do expect todlers to do things like bit and preschoolers will probably hit but after that I think logic should come into play sometime soon.


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## mamapajama (Feb 9, 2003)

There is absolutely nothing GD or AP about calling a toddler "abusive" or suggesting they should be "isolated" until the behavior stops. This thread is horrible, the implications disturbing. Yuck.
Unsubscribing


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

This thread actually reminds me of a Simpson's episode. Bart was wanting to hang out with Nelson Muntz. Marge says to Bart, "Nelson's a troubled, lonely, sad little boy. He needs to be isolated from everyone."

A little sad when a bad joke from the Simpsons rears it's head here.

Bec


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bec*
This thread actually reminds me of a Simpson's episode. Bart was wanting to hang out with Nelson Muntz. Marge says to Bart, "Nelson's a troubled, lonely, sad little boy. He needs to be isolated from everyone."

A little sad when a bad joke from the Simpsons rears it's head here.

Bec

I've always thought Simpson Logic could be applied to just about every aspect of life!


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Magster, don't know if you're still reading, but that's awesome!

FTR, she posted that her two-year-old has never been hit or bit.

This is such a touchy issue. Reading this makes me so grateful that I'm not currently parenting a hitter-of-other-children.

Got to admit that I do try to avoid kids while they are going through violent periods. How could I not?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Wow, this thread makes me sad.









Toddlers/preschoolers are not abusive. They are inexperienced little people who often use their bodies to communicate. Hitting, as undesirable as it is, is so normal for toddlers. What toddlers who are hitting need is guidance and compassion, and _because they learn best by interacting with others_ isolation just does not seem like the best answer. I think it is the responsibility of any parent of a small child to remain nearby and aware, and to step in to guide her child when her child shows signs of having a difficult time coping or as soon as her child hits or bites (sometimes it happens so fast it can't be stopped). And certainly if it is apparent that it is the stress of being with a group of children or a certain child that is the stimulus for hitting, it would be appropriate and compassionate to take a break from that group or that child.

No one wants their child to be the one who is hit or bitten. But these things happen. If my children were consistently hit by a particular child (or hit at all and it made me uncomfortable) I might choose to keep my own children away from that particular child for awhile for my own comfort or if my child didn't want to be around the child anymore. But I would not think of that child as abusive and I certainly would not wish for him to be kept away from all other children.

Although my kids aren't "hitters" and I can be confident when I take them to visit other kids that mine will not be hitting, the fact is that it could happen at any time-I cannot know with complete certainty that my children will never hit or bite another child. I would hope that if my young children ever hit someone else's child my fellow parents would then be able to offer some compassion rather than wishing my child isolated.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

As a mother of a biter/pusher/pacifier out of mouth popper this thread makes me sad. DS is only 14 months old but has been biting and pushing other kids (his 2 year old aunt and his cousin who is 7 weeks younger than him) since he could move (we have pics of him at less than 3 months old *hitting* his cousin). I obviously try to catch him and curb this behaviour as much as I can but there are times he "strikes" and I don't catch him until it's happened (so sue me for being a single mom, burned out at times, who only has 2 hands). I have tried everything I can think of (and all the suggestions I've gotten from here) but there is no magic cure. I am hoping and praying it is just a phase but no, I don't think he should be isolated from other people (it's not just kids he bites).


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Because I'm no logician, I asked dh to explain why it is illogical to assume that someone who says that her child doesn't hit because of her parenting is implying that a child who does hit does so because of parenting. Apparently, it hinges on the assumption that not all children are the same (e.g., all hit or don't hit because of parenting). Logically, there would be three types: (1) kids who hit because of parenting, (2) kids who don't hit because of parenting, and (3) kids who hit or don't hit, regardless of parenting.

I hope that makes sense. I'm very tired (a certain little baby had his diaper changed fifteen times last night. Fifteen!) and have little-to-no short-term memory. I was like an amnesiac, asking dh to explain it, telling him how interesting it was, and then promptly forgetting what he'd said.

StephandOwen, it's interesting what you say about your child. Dh and I have both had the distinct feeling that our three-month-old was hitting us on purpose, but dismissed it as crazy talk.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

There have been times while reading this thread that my stomach has been in knots. Intense discussions. Not for the faint of heart. *sigh*

My son has been both the hittee and the hitter, the bitee and the biter. I do not place blame for these behaviors, although there was a time when DS was quite young that I may have. In addition, I don't allow others to take responsibility when it's very appropriate for me to monitor situations more closely and discipline where necessary. When DS has been the aggressor, I have acted quickly (preventing in all biting cases except when I was the victim) and disciplined in the moment. When DS has been the victim, the parent has received my support and co-misery, only. NOT my judgement. As I mentioned, the only person actually bitten by DS was me and I must have looked rather shocked and awed at the time, as our playschool teacher looked at me and quickly said, "Don't go there. It's normal. Totally normal. It will pass. Take a deep breath... and again." Thank goodness for those words to me right then and there.

That said, I do not remove DS from any and all social situations when things have been rough going. However, in our case, social stimuli can often intensify and trigger acts of aggression and I take this seriously. When DS was biting at 22 months, it was fairly clear that he was frustrated and being pre-verbal to a large extent, having trouble expressing his strong emotions. I emotion coached consistently and he grew out of it quickly. When he was hitting at 3, it wasn't as clear, but thankfully I was reading PLAYFUL PARENTING at the time where I learned that most "bad" behaviors come from the "towers of isolation and helplessness" and not from some place of internal aggression. _There is little to be learned when a person is in a emotional state of isolation or helplessness, period._

At any rate, when my DS is going through a spell like this, I make darned sure that I spend more time with him because there isn't much we can't solve by simply slowing our pace, focusing more, spending more time and following his lead (role play has worked wonders). I do, during these times, give him opportunities for positive social situations (feeling good, well fed, not tired, etc.), follow him EXTRA closely and learn to leave if I see signs of emotional overload.

In general, I recognize that most kids do go through some sort of agressive behavior now and again. I've learned that not being immuned here, it my place to support and help other parents and children, not shun children (which very well puts them in a place that would rather perpetuate the problem rather than solve it), but to give them opportunities to make better choices in the future. Luckily, in the community where I live this is also the mind-set of most parents. *whew!*


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

"At any rate, when my DS is going through a spell like this, I make darned sure that I spend more time with him because there isn't much we can't solve by simply slowing our pace, focusing more, spending more time and following his lead (role play has worked wonders). I do, during these times, give him opportunities for positive social situations (feeling good, well fed, not tired, etc.), follow him EXTRA closely and learn to leave if I see signs of emotional overload."

Thank you Embee - That is what I have been trying to say. To me slowing down and limiting situations that seem to be causing my child distress is not the samething as "shunning" anyone.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys*
To me slowing down and limiting situations that seem to be causing my child distress is not the samething as "shunning" anyone.

I agree with you. But I think it should be the decision of the parent involved and not some third person who demands that the child be "kept away."

Namaste!


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I have been on both sides, though my son has only rarely been the hitter.

I absolutely do not think that moms should keep biters/hitters away from other children and playgroups *where the mom will be able to constantly supervise them.* But what I do have a problem with, is moms that know it's a problem, tell people it's a problem, and then proceed to gab with all the other moms at said playdate and not adequately supervise them.

And the OP mentioned a LLL group. I think in instances like that, where it can be impossible to adequately supervise an agressive toddler or young child around a lot of babies, that child is best left at home. Not to mention in parenting groups or groups that have some other purpose beyond children socializing, it is very distracting to have a kid like this who requires such constant attention on the part of all the parents.


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## mich (Apr 19, 2002)

It seems to me that the problem with raising a child with super vigilance against any and all inaproperiate behavior, as you describe, is that there isnt much room left to teach and model resilience.

Resilience being a key ingredient necessary to all people in order to have a happy, healthy life.


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## K&JsMaMa (May 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mich*
It seems to me that the problem with raising a child with super vigilance against any and all inaproperiate behavior, as you describe, is that there isnt much room left to teach and model resilience.

Resilience being a key ingredient necessary to all people in order to have a happy, healthy life.









Well said!!! This is exactly what i was thinking while reading most of this thread. My, my, my this mama is in for it when her little darling gets older and kids get meaner and meaner.

My advice: Deal with toddler stuff during the toddler years. Hitting/biting is definately toddler stuff.


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