# ap/mainstream=big difference



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I wasn't sure where to post this and figured maybe this was the best place. Our ds is 25m and we're are ap all around. My good friend is actually mainstream (lives out of state) and is the only mainstream parent we really get along w/ besides my sister. Anyhow they were here on vaca and ds and I spent the day/night with them in Orlando.
Wow is all I can say to the parenting differences. Her boys are 12, 5, and 19m. First off I noticed how little they actually hold/cuddle thier baby let alone the 5yr old. I honestly can't count how many times we hug/cuddle etc ds because it's so much in a day.
Tv is big for them and the 5yr old can't sleep with out it. She doesn't understand why, and with all three sharing a room right now, well the baby is going to learn that tv=sleep as well at night. When we first got there her dh said there were cartoons on in the bedroom and I said "well ds doesn't know what cartoons are". He said sorry (meaning sorry he was missing out on tv) and I said "don't be, because he's Not missing anything".
Also spanking/hand slapping. It has no effect. Why even bother smacking a hand or but if it doesn't do anything after 5 years?
And I guess just attitude in general with her boys. They don't listen very well, especially the 5yr old. I realize that even ap parents have behavior/discipline problems, and that kids will be kids, but you could really see a difference in her boys compared to ours. Even in the two babies even.
And I know not everyone can bf, but she chose not too, and her kids are always sick. Everytime we talk on the phone one has a cold or just got over something.
I just amazed at the difference I truely believe ap makes-especially seeing it over the various ages and how they deal with it. It hasn't changed at all any time we've seen them.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Is TV AP/not AP? Not sure what it has to do with attachment.


----------



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I'm saying I only know 1 mostly ap parent that uses tv as a babysitter as opposed to the many mainstream parents we've met where the tv is on most or all of the day or used as a babysitter. They have it on all night for him and all day. Most ap or nfl families we've met/know use very limited tv or none and not as a sitter for the babies. As for tv in general, I think it can cause unattachment from parent to child if all you do is plop them in front of it just so you can do other stuff. When they could be looking through books, playing with blocks and thier toys instead.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
I'm saying I only know 1 mostly ap parent that uses tv as a babysitter as opposed to the many mainstream parents we've met where the tv is on most or all of the day or used as a babysitter. They have it on all night for him and all day. Most ap or nfl families we've met/know use very limited tv or none and not as a sitter for the babies. As for tv in general, I think it can cause unattachment from parent to child if all you do is plop them in front of it just so you can do other stuff. When they could be looking through books, playing with blocks and thier toys instead.

I think you are confusing AP with NFL, though. Attachment parenting is literally about physical closeness and attachment -- babywearing, co-sleeping, breastfeeding. Television can be used in synch with any of those parenting approaches.

You can "plop" kids in front of books, toys, and blocks while you go and do other stuff, too.

I'm not advocating extended use of television for young children, but I don't think it really has much to do with whether one is AP or not. Much like cloth diapering or vaxing, television is a topic that creeps into AP discussions but has nothing to do with attachment.


----------



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I don't have the two confused. I added tv into thier parenting because it's a huge part of it for them. If it wasn't, there is a greater chance that thier kids would have better attention spans. When they get mad if they can't watch a particular show etc, they get yelled at or spanked. It goes hand in hand with them.
Only asking, but are there any ap friendly books or etc that recommend tv use? I only have the sears ones and I haven't seen anything in there that promotes tv usage, but interaction with your children with blocks, toys, coloring, music etc. I have to disagree that "plopping" a kid in front of tv is different than in front of things that they can build, color, explore etc. If I put our son in the family room with his toys so I can do the dishes, cook dinner etc, he does something new daily with his toys. It's always a learning exp with him. Tv can't compare imo. But I don't want this to turn into a tv thread.
I was mainly trying to point out how amazed I was at the difference in ap vs ms with us & them and how our kids and ourselves behave. Everyone I know who does ap, thier kids are so much more behaved, loving etc compared to those who don't practice ap. The parents too.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think that falling asleep watching tv everynight is detrimental, and hand slapping/spanking is counterproductive and traumatic. That said -- I think that no matter how you cut it, being a first time parent to a 2 year old is going to look very different when compared to an established family of 12+ years and 3 kids. You get more relaxed, you take more shortcuts, and yougner sibs get exposed to stuff you never would have exposed your firstborn to just by nature of family dynamics. Honor your ideals, but be slow to judge others, kwim?


----------



## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

What mamaduck said. And also, I have to say that as far as "well-behaved" goes, I know a lot of mainstream families whose children are a lot better "behaved" than mine are in public. I don't know if it has anything to do with AP vs. mainstream, or general child temperament, or what, but I'm not sure that good behavior is a direct result of attachment parenting. (If anything, I think that sometimes kids who feel more attached and secure are more likely to act out in public. This is just a theory/guess, though.)


----------



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I don't mean to judge at all. I've watched my sister and friend raise thier kids for 10 years. And though not mine, I've always thought how they were doing it was wrong-cio, spanking, tv dependant, leave baby in a swing/playpen for long periods etc. Some of you might think we'll be singing a diff tune in ten years, but really- are you going to just turn around and start non ap parenting because of more kids and time issues? Especially when you know it's beneficial to the whole family, though hard sometimes? We know families who make it work and they are our role models. It can be done. My sister only started to come around to ap when ds was born-from seeing how we raise him and with members of her church practicing ap. It (ap) was almost unheard of when she had her first 3. They still do things like yelling & spanking, cio and tv is thier sitter. With her a lot is just pure lazziness and being stuck doing that for so long. My friend is the same way. If I really judged them we wouldn't be friends and my sis and I would have some issues going on. I'm just saying that it was almost a shock to see that kind of parenting for a whole day almost compared to what we're used to seeing among ap friends here.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I just have to say that I think there's a spectrum of behaviors and styles that people have when parenting and there's no clear AP/mainstream dichotomy. Also, what is "mainstream"? Is mainstream middle-class white suburb the same as upper-class multicultural urban neighbourhood? I doubt it.

Also, coming from the perspective of someone who identifies neither with the counterculture, nor the AP label, but with my own personal style of parenting in a mixed religion, mixed culture, mixed language and mixed nationality marriage, I really don't think that it's easy to just put other families into a category. We just don't know. Some attached-looking families might use psychological violence against their kids- you don't know. Other mainstream families might not spank at all. It doesn't depend on the label, it depends on a commitment to love.

Also, I agree with the PP that those of us with new babies can't compare ourselves to people with more, older kids.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
I realize that even ap parents have behavior/discipline problems, and that kids will be kids...

Uh huh.

There are crappy parents out there, within all "styles" of parenting.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
I don't mean to judge at all.

Well, no offense but you ARE judging. I mean, you used phrases like "pure laziness" to describe others' parenting.

So, if you don't mean to judge, what exactly is the point of this thread? Because it seems like you want a bunch of people to come in here and tsk-tsk about what crappy parents your friends are and to pat each other on the back for being AP.

We seem to have a thread like this every day on MDC, it gets a little old.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

ITA with what chinaKat and Mamaduck have said. When my first was a babe, I was very idealistic and was very quick to judge other families. Now that my family has grown (as well as the amount of exhaustion I experience daily!), I have much more compassion for others who do things differently than I do.

Even among friends, we don't know the nitty gritty of what they are going through with their partners and children. And I always try to remember that parenting is a journey of self-discovery as well as dealing with sometimes painful issues from our own childhood. It's very complicated and the hardest job on earth.


----------



## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

I can be a judgemental jerk but that usually lasts only a few moments, I remember how bad it feels to be looked down on. I'd be really heartbroken to think someone I cared for and trusted wrote nasty things about my mothering in a forum like this. It's not in the spirit of unsolicited advice or education. it's just mean.







:

I know what it fees like to be shocked at how other people raise their children. It feels wrong to me, it feels off and ill fitting and sometimes unfathomable. I spend so much time in my little bubble with my little kids that every now and again I am surprised and unnerved by differences. This is where tolerance and respect comes in, I believe.

We all make our own choices, we all make choices that we feel are right and best and when compared to other, different styles and choices mine feel more right and others feel even more off. But that's their thing. If I let myself get worked up over every choice made that differs from what I think is best I'd be insane! Besides, who am I to judge? Who am I? There have been times that I've said how can she let her baby do that or whatever and you know what? I ended up with a child who made me understand and I was humbled bigtime.

I know a lot of "mainstream" parents who are turned off by "AP" parents because there can be some holier than thou vibe and that's not friendly and that isn't proactive and it certainly doesn't foster respect. Negativity and a sense of superiority will not get a spanker or a tv babysitter to open up to different ways. I don't think so anyway. I think judgement breeds judgement, it breeds nothing positive. I don't want to be one of those parents who scoffs at a FF but then gets offended when I am scoffed at for NIP, KWIM?

I'm sure you're a sweet person, bbrandonsmom. I don't mean any of this in a negative way.


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanB* 
What mamaduck said. And also, I have to say that as far as "well-behaved" goes, I know a lot of mainstream families whose children are a lot better "behaved" than mine are in public. I don't know if it has anything to do with AP vs. mainstream, or general child temperament, or what, but I'm not sure that good behavior is a direct result of attachment parenting. (If anything, I think that sometimes kids who feel more attached and secure are more likely to act out in public. This is just a theory/guess, though.)









: I know that on the surface my 21 mo dd probably looks like a brat at times so I would be very hesitant to make blanket statements about behavior and AP. In fact my 15 yo who I was very "mainstream" with was certainly a far easier and gentler baby than his sister who I have used a AP style with since her birth.

I also know that having 2 kids who are 13.5 years apart that I would be hesitant to judge another person's parenting when you have yet to get to that age. Its extremely hard to find activities that can engage a 5 yo and a 12 yo and I can easily see where the TV would be a easy tool.

Shay


----------



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
Just because we feel that way of parenting is wrong, doesn't mean we're right. It's our opinion. My sister and I as well as my friend and I have talked about our differences and never even implied that our/thier way was better etc, or put anyone down. It was more about why they did it that way and why we did it our way. I was just shocked to see the total lack of respect from kids to parents and how I honestly feel it could be different if went about another way. It's not just them I see it with.
I thought I could come here and point out how I see a difference in the parenting styles among other similar parents, and see if anyone else saw a difference in the two as well. Some of you do see a difference, and that's what I had wanted to talk about. I was using my friend and sister as examples of non ap-not to bash or put down.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

There really isn't anything to talk about. You parent differently then your friend. You feel that your way is better. Keep parenting your kids your way.


----------



## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
My sister is lazy, she's admitted herself and I'm sorry, but I think plopping your kid in front of a tv just so you can go read a book or something is lazy or maybe selfish.
I really don't mean to come across as better. I thought I could come here and talk about the differences that I saw in the two ways of parenting. This was just my opinion and I didn't mean to make anyone feel bad or wrong in anything.

But you *do* come across that way....how old are your kids again?? Just asking because sometimes, *gasp* I too, am *more*than happy to grab a Barney video so the baby and I can grab a quick 30 min nap...or even*gasp* distract the older kids with TV so I can maintain my sanity..or even read a book for a few minutes. I'm okay with that....see I'm as AP as you get, but I've learned that some things just don't matter in the long run. So, I plan on continuing to lazily/selfishly 'plop' my kids in front of a movie so that I can catch my breath every now and then. And I don't feel bad about it.

And that certianly has nothing to do with the fact that I'm AP.

And the way you compare parenting styles without coming across as judgemental to family/friends is to get over yourself!! You don't know everything yet, neither do I!! Give advice when asked for advice. When someone compliments you, throw in a yes, babies really seem to like the slings or yes, we practice gentle discipline or yes, we breastfeed....don't preach. Don't dictate and above all, no name calling or insinuations. Every parent raises their way they think is best, be aware of that. You're not the only one who thinks they're right. Tread carefully.


----------



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I had a weird experience last night. We were having dinner with dh's elderly great aunt and uncle. Great aunt was telling me about how she breastfed, coslept, didn't spank, etc. I told her did you know they have a name for that now? "Attachment Parenting" "We were definately attached!" she said. Even today, my grown up kids will call me and tell me about anything and everything. She also described dh's grandparents as being more strict, spanking, weaning the kids from the bottle by 9 months, very strict about a clean house - just painted a less warm picture.

So we're on the car riding home and I ask dh how great aunt and uncle's kids are (I've never met them). Oh, they are all a mess - can't get their acts together! Huh? Then you look at dh's dad and aunt and uncle and they are all pretty "successful", have things together, loving, but definately a tad repressed. I guess dh says that the whole family has really grown in the past couple decades to be more loving....

But anyway, just thinking about it - there's a balance there between love and attachment and discipline and guidance. All pieces of the puzzle - I think it's alot harder to ruin a person than we think. It's good to look at what we are doing and see the benefits - also good to take an honest assessment of what we need to work on as well. Sometimes looking at what other people do critically (in the academic sense) is a worthwhile activity - it's all about what you do with the information. Just babbling...


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
hem.
Only asking, but are there any ap friendly books or etc that recommend tv use? I only have the sears ones and I haven't seen anything in there that promotes tv usage, but interaction with your children with blocks, toys, coloring, music etc.


Well you are not going to find any mainstream books that recommend T.V. either, so you are setting up quite the false argument.

In any event I know lots and lots and lots of mainstream families that don't spank, have lovely well behaved children whom they cuddle with all the time (not the 12 year olds though, at least not in front of anyone else). Many of these families limit TV time.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think that its wortwhile to evaluate specific parenting practices. But I don't think suscribing to an overall methodology puts anyone on the "right track" in terms of parenting. It just doesn't worth that way.

I also think its pretty dangerous business to start making a lot of comparisons, especially in terms of outcome. We do the best we can, but we can't guarantee that our kids will be okay.

I sure wish we could though!


----------



## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

I tend to be judgemental because I like to be right (or at least *think* that I'm right)...._all the time_







. However, I don't really find this an endearing quality in myself, so whenever I find myself being judgemental- even in my private thoughts- I remind myself that parenting is just about the hardest job in the world and the last thing that we need- especially us moms- is to waste time judging each other for the choices we make and the way we parent. It's hard for me to do sometimes because like I said, I love to be right







, but I despise being judged so I try not to do it to others. I'm not going to lie...sometimes it's hard. What can I say, I'm a work in progress







.

Don't forget that we sisters gotta stick together







. It's The Man that likes to keep us on different teams







.


----------



## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
But you *do* come across that way....how old are your kids again?? Just asking because sometimes, *gasp* I too, am *more*than happy to grab a Barney video so the baby and I can grab a quick 30 min nap...or even*gasp* distract the older kids with TV so I can maintain my sanity..or even read a book for a few minutes. I'm okay with that....see I'm as AP as you get, but I've learned that some things just don't matter in the long run. So, I plan on continuing to lazily/selfishly 'plop' my kids in front of a movie so that I can catch my breath every now and then. And I don't feel bad about it.

And that certianly has nothing to do with the fact that I'm AP.

And the way you compare parenting styles without coming across as judgemental to family/friends is to get over yourself!! You don't know everything yet, neither do I!! Give advice when asked for advice. When someone compliments you, throw in a yes, babies really seem to like the slings or yes, we practice gentle discipline or yes, we breastfeed....don't preach. Don't dictate and above all, no name calling or insinuations. Every parent raises their way they think is best, be aware of that. You're not the only one who thinks they're right. Tread carefully.

I agree with this.

You say you aren't saying your way is better but it's obvious you do think so and that her "mainstream" ways aren't as good. I get so sick of the whole "mainstream" vs. "ap" argument.

And yeah, I'd love to know how old your kids are because one thing I've learned in parenting is don't say, "I would NEVER do ...." because I'll have my foot in my mouth before I know it.

As far as whether or not there are books on "Should an AP mom let her kids watch tv?" I wouldn't know because I wouldn't read them. I do what I feels right in my heart. I don't worry about whether it would be considered AP or mainstream. If I'm doing what I feel is best and right for my children that is what matters. And for me that just so happens to fall more into attachment parenting.


----------



## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm new to these boards, lots of debates huh....well I'm going off topic a little..just for a quick question, I hope that's ok because I don't want to start a thread for it. What's "mainstream" and what's "ap". I've been told that I was ap, though I couldn't breastfeed







: . but my daughter loves the video "babysongs" and it soothes when I need a 15min break to fold laundry etc..We cosleep, I hold my daugher most of the time, we just do what feels natural..I actually didn't know that there were names for different parenting( I need to come out from under my rock)) As for her being well behaved most people say "she's spoiled" she's very picky. She screams and crys if someone she doesn't know touches her.. I think she would be like that no matter how I paranted her, that's just her personality.


----------



## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 







I'm new to these boards, lots of debates huh....well I'm going off topic a little..just for a quick question, I hope that's ok because I don't want to start a thread for it. What's "mainstream" and what's "ap". I've been told that I was ap, though I couldn't breastfeed







: . but my daughter loves the video "babysongs" and it soothes when I need a 15min break to fold laundry etc..We cosleep, I hold my daugher most of the time, we just do what feels natural..I actually didn't know that there were names for different parenting( I need to come out from under my rock)) As for her being well behaved most people say "she's spoiled" she's very picky. She screams and crys if someone she doesn't know touches her.. I think she would be like that no matter how I paranted her, that's just her personality.

I had never even heard the term "mainstream" in reference to parenting style until coming here.

To me mainstream means that you tend to follow the trends in regards to well baby visits, possibly vaccines(although I do know "mainstream" parents who don't vaccinate their kids), baby gear, baby toys, etc...

I've gotten the impression from a lot of people here that mainstream means you let your baby CIO, you feed them formula, you circumcise them, etc... basically the opposite of AP.

I think there are variances in attachment parenting and the same is true of mainstream parenting. I think overall that mainstream parents get a bad rap.


----------



## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Well you are not going to find any mainstream books that recommend T.V. either, so you are setting up quite the false argument.

In any event I know lots and lots and lots of mainstream families that don't spank, have lovely well behaved children whom they cuddle with all the time (not the 12 year olds though, at least not in front of anyone else). Many of these families limit TV time.

my 12yo son is fine with hugs and stuff in public! my 8yo, forget it.


----------



## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanB* 
. I don't know if it has anything to do with AP vs. mainstream, or general child temperament, or what, but I'm not sure that good behavior is a direct result of attachment parenting. (

I'm going to say it's both...

Parents who AP are *generally* more likely to go with the flow, overlook the little things, etc., which MAY be magnified in certain circumstances, at least to the casual observer...

Since part of personality is inherited, I'm going to assume that AP'ers probably have less rigid children who may not succumb to the "norms" so readily....

I do some AP, and some mainstream, but, around here, I definitely would be put in the "mainstream" group

I think there's a happy medium somewhere, and that's all I'm going to say....


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
But you *do* come across that way....how old are your kids again?? Just asking because sometimes, *gasp* I too, am *more*than happy to grab a Barney video so the baby and I can grab a quick 30 min nap...or even*gasp* distract the older kids with TV so I can maintain my sanity..or even read a book for a few minutes. I'm okay with that....see I'm as AP as you get, but I've learned that some things just don't matter in the long run. So, I plan on continuing to lazily/selfishly 'plop' my kids in front of a movie so that I can catch my breath every now and then. And I don't feel bad about it.

And that certianly has nothing to do with the fact that I'm AP.

And the way you compare parenting styles without coming across as judgemental to family/friends is to get over yourself!! You don't know everything yet, neither do I!! Give advice when asked for advice. When someone compliments you, throw in a yes, babies really seem to like the slings or yes, we practice gentle discipline or yes, we breastfeed....don't preach. Don't dictate and above all, no name calling or insinuations. Every parent raises their way they think is best, be aware of that. You're not the only one who thinks they're right. Tread carefully.

Wow from the snarky ton of your post (and other people's posts along the way) it sure does seem like you guys do in fact feel badly for using the TV as a babysitter.

If the OP wants to say that her friends have a crappy parenting style why shouldn't she? I mean come on guys, this is a place you are supposed to come and vent. After 20 posts telling her she is a judgmental jerk you'd think you would all lay off. We all make judgements every day - it's how you form a decision - god forbide anyone comes out and admits to it though. Why would you parent the way you did if you did not judge it to be better then any other way to parent?


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 
Why would you parent the way you did if you did not judge it to be better then any other way to parent?

I parent the way I do because it works the best with my son. If I had another child I am sure i would have to tailor my parenting to fit that childs personality, temprament and needs. I also try to take my needs and my DH's needs into consideration.

I HATE it when people judge me, so I try very hard not to judge anyone else.

Most people I know are a cross between "AP" and "mainstream" and are trying to make the best parenting choices they can. Ragging on someone who parents different then you accomplishes nothing.


----------



## APCDmama (Dec 22, 2004)

I agree with you bbrandonsmom. There is a big difference. It's a huge difference and I see it all the time, everywhere I look. I don't understand the posters who are trying to take you down for voicing your opinion. Are we not allowed to believe something is "wrong" or against our values? Are we not allowed to speak up against what we believe is harmful or detrimental to the psychology, health, and development of children? I read so much anger and defensiveness in the replies, but I fail to read the same level of emotion in the original post. The OP sounds more surprised/disappointed/saddened than judgemental. I don't think she is a "holier than thou" type. If you disagree with her, can you not say so in a gentle, kind way? You won't change anyone's viewpoint with the way you are coming across. Let's also remember that wording can change (unintentionally) the entire tone of a post - hers and yours. I am pretty sure that bbrandonsmom means well.

Ironic that you are judging her for judging others. Please think about it.


----------



## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't believe your average person is able to be 100% judgement free, I don't think it is typical to live a life in which no judgements are passed. HOWEVER, I do see the difference between keeping it in check and posting about a friend and their family, a friend who trusts and cares for you and would not expect they are spending vacation with you being judged for their parenting and written about in a public forum.









Maybe I can't see the original post for what it is, I don't know, I keep thinking about that mama and how terrible she would feel if she knew what a great friend she has. Most people I know IRL parent differently than I do but I wouldn't smile to their face and then snark online.


----------



## numericmama (Apr 27, 2005)

Maybe I can't see the original post for what it is, I don't know, I keep thinking about that mama and how terrible she would feel if she knew what a great friend she has. Most people I know IRL parent differently than I do but I wouldn't smile to their face and then snark online.

*************

What other suggestions is there for her?

I have family members who use severe TOs. I am uncomfortable with my son even witnessing the child's upset, and how she is constantly being told to stuff her feelings and to distrust her feelings. There is literally nothing I can say to them about it. They are truely doing the best they can in a hard situation and have greatly improved with parent education (which includes the use of TOs, a ton or praise, and the feeling stuffing). I am very distressed about the situation. I try and limit our time together. I try and offset the negative impact by discussing things with my son later. Even my husband is distressed and he usually thinks I am overboard. BUT I still need to get my frustrated, sorrowful feelings out to someone. So, I keep quiet at the family events, I empathize with their situtaiton, but my friends do hear about it later.


----------



## APCDmama (Dec 22, 2004)

I think I understand what you're saying, kawa kamuri. That makes sense to me. But I also agree with numericmama's points. Sometimes, we do need to keep our thoughts to ourselves in order to respect another's feelings or simply to keep the peace. There is also a time and place to share these thoughts, and it often happens amongst like-minded (or at least open-minded) people.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 
After 20 posts telling her she is a judgmental jerk you'd think you would all lay off. We all make judgements every day - it's how you form a decision - god forbide anyone comes out and admits to it though. Why would you parent the way you did if you did not judge it to be better then any other way to parent?

I have to agree with this.

Yes, the OP was judging. We are all judgemental. It's human nature. Give this OP some support and I bet the judging will die down.

Kylix


----------



## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zach'smom* 
Most people I know are a cross between "AP" and "mainstream" and are trying to make the best parenting choices they can.

This is something I've noticed since I first learned about the whole "AP vs non-AP" debate, back when I was still single. IRL, the families I've met with young children are all over the map. You can't really make any blanket predictions about how they're going to do things. For instance, I know dedicated "family bedders" who use formula by choice, and "child-led weaners" who occasionally spank. (Not to mention those quasi-NFL folks who feed their children an organic whole-foods diet, and give them natural wooden toys to inspire creative play, but also let them watch quite a bit of TV. Hmm, wait, that would be us.







)

Whether or not I'd agree with these families' decisions, they clearly have their own reasons for doing what they do. They don't seem to be ignorant of the alternatives, or stuck in a "mainstream mindset." In fact, many of them did certain things one way with their first child, then switched with the second or third.

Another problem with this supposed dichotomy is that some of the "AP" and "GD" practices are becoming "mainstream," in the sense that they're being promoted by popular "experts" and various professional organizations. For example, based on what I've seen from the AAP, parenting web sites and magazines, and the majority of bestselling books -- and from what I've observed in my own community (admittedly, in a fairly "liberal/progressive" state) :

Spanking is not mainstream. (This applies 100x for the Pearls, et al.)
Formula feeding is not mainstream.
Scheduled feeding is not mainstream.
Giving solids before 6 months is not mainstream.
CIO in the first few months is not mainstream.
Putting baby to sleep in a separate room from the earliest days is not mainstream.
When we see a parent who's doing some things we strongly disagree with, instead of labeling that person as "mainstream," it might be more helpful to try to understand _why_ they've chosen not to follow the advice (which they've most likely already heard, from one source or another) to follow that particular AP/GD/NFL practice. Even if we think their behavior is wrong, or even harmful, we can respect their intentions to do right by their children. In fact, I tend to think we _must_ do so. If we _don't_... if we just figure they're "lazy," and can't be bothered... then what hope is there at all?


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix* 
I have to agree with this.

Yes, the OP was judging. We are all judgemental. It's human nature. Give this OP some support and I bet the judging will die down.

Kylix

Some support for *what*, precisely?

I'm not being snarky, I'm truly curious.

It honestly sounded to me like she was looking for a pile on about how crappy her friend's parenting was. Honestly, what else could have been the point of starting this thread? She was comparing parenting styles, with the obvious implication that "AP" yields "better" results than "mainstream".

Calling somebody on being judgemental is not the same as _being_ judgemental.


----------



## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
I was just shocked to see the total lack of respect from kids to parents

I guarantee you that you'd be shocked at how my ds treats me, too







.

And I wouldn't cuddle him nearly as much if he would stop climbing on my lap every time I sit down.

Kids with siblings in school get sick more. My breastfed preschooler got everything that came his way during his brief time at school.

There are no easy solutions or pat answers in parenting.

I'm sure problems exist with your friend's parenting (as they do in mine) but even spending the day with wonderful AP GD parents cause me to wonder if their way is best. Family dynamics are so complicated and there is so much that is a response to unseen and unobservable things.


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryCeleste* 


Spanking is not mainstream. (This applies 100x for the Pearls, et al.)
Formula feeding is not mainstream.
Scheduled feeding is not mainstream.
Giving solids before 6 months is not mainstream.
CIO in the first few months is not mainstream.
Putting baby to sleep in a separate room from the earliest days is not mainstream.











I have no idea where you live but it is a bubble I would like to live in too. I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, in one of the most liberal towns in said state. Everything in that list except for spanking is 100% mainstream to the 100th degree.


----------



## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

I also see a lot of threads like this but I have to say I can see where the OP is coming from.

IRL I feel very alone much of the time. I feel like my parenting practices are judged when someone makes a comment that it is gross to nurse a 2 year old, or they ask about dd's cloth diapers when I change her in public and say they make a face when they ask what to do w/ the poop and I say I dump it in the toilet (I know that's NFL not AP but I'm talking about parenting in general).

So it's nice to have a place to come where someone can "pat you on the back" for parenting the way you do instead of feeling judged. Does that make you judgemental as well? Maybe, but I'm personally tired of feeling I'm the only one who does stuff the way I do.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Some support for *what*, precisely?

I'm not being snarky, I'm truly curious.

It honestly sounded to me like she was looking for a pile on about how crappy her friend's parenting was. Honestly, what else could have been the point of starting this thread? She was comparing parenting styles, with the obvious implication that "AP" yields "better" results than "mainstream".

Calling somebody on being judgemental is not the same as _being_ judgemental.

How about "it must be hard watching someone parenting in a way that you don't agree with". Or, "it sounds like you are doing a great job with your dc, don't worry about others. She's doing the best she can too". There were some posters who took this approach and then there were others where the snark was palpable. It's not necessary.

I wasn't referring to "calling someone on being judgemental" when I said everyone is judgemental although I do think the snark borders on that. I simply meant we all judge. And I agree that we wouldn't be so for AP if we didn't _judge_ it to be the best way to parent our kids. She voiced the thoughts she had in her head. Maybe it isn't productive or fair but there is no need for the snark. Find out what she was really trying to communicate in her post and speak to that. I think we need to be gentle with each other here.

Kylix


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I'm not advocating extended use of television for young children, but I don't think it really has much to do with whether one is AP or not. Much like cloth diapering or vaxing, television is a topic that creeps into AP discussions but has nothing to do with attachment.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 









I have no idea where you live but it is a bubble I would like to live in too. I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, in one of the most liberal towns in said state. Everything in that list except for spanking is 100% mainstream to the 100th degree.

Are "common in your geographical area" and "mainstream" the same thing? I guess you could argue so, although then everyone's definition of mainstream would differ. (I must live in the same bubble as the person you quoted -- spanking, CIO, formula feeding, etc. aren't at all common here, despite the fact that most people are decidedly un"crunchy.")

I always think mainstream means what the widespread experts (AAP, etc.) recommend, and most of them seem to recommend breastfeeding, gentle discipline, etc.

I agree with a pp who said that they never heard the word mainstream in regards to parenting style until she came to MDC. I think people here just use it to refer to parents who do the majority the opposite of AP. "Mainstream" is just an unfortunate label, because it insinuates that that parenting style is ultra-common, when that's not the case in many many areas, and most well-regarded experts don't recommend those parenting practices anymore.


----------



## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 
Wow from the snarky ton of your post (and other people's posts along the way) it sure does seem like you guys do in fact feel badly for using the TV as a babysitter.

If the OP wants to say that her friends have a crappy parenting style why shouldn't she? I mean come on guys, this is a place you are supposed to come and vent. After 20 posts telling her she is a judgmental jerk you'd think you would all lay off. We all make judgements every day - it's how you form a decision - god forbide anyone comes out and admits to it though. Why would you parent the way you did if you did not judge it to be better then any other way to parent?

The difference is that I don't call anyone names, especially not lazy or selfish, for the way they parent. Of course I think that my choices are beneficial for my children, however, to state that parents who 'plop' their children in front of the TV are lazy and selfish is a ridiculous statement. I don't use the TV as a babysitter. I have three children under the age of 10, two under the age of three, work from home nights from 9p-1a and sometimes I need to breathe, go to the bathroom by myself, take a shower more than once a week, and perhaps even read a book. I am okay putting a DVD in so that I can do that. There is a difference, and perhaps I responded snarkily (for which I apologize) and probably could have phrased better in my response to her. My point is, we've all seen something that another parent did and said...oooooh no, not me...but yet one day, I find myself asking if the kids want to watch Barney so I can sleep for 1/2 hr and not totally lose my sanity. Of course I take offense and respond defensively to someone who insinuates that this action defines my parenting and would somehow have anything to do with the AP that I in fact practice.

Sometimes we take ourselves too seriously, which is what I meant when I said to the OP to get over herself...we really don't know it all in regards to parenting, and probably won't know anything until our kids are 50.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

but I just reread the OP's post

I don't really care if the 5 yo falls asleep with the TV on TBH-my oldest went through a phase where he watched TV before falling asleep. It passed. Now maybe it will never occur to the OP's friends to try it without TV but still there are worse things.

Spanking and slapping hands I don't agree with personally. I admit it would be hard for me to watch.

As for the kids not listening and not behaving. It has nothing to do with TV or AP IMO. There are so many factors.

As for being sick. I knew some breastfed,homeschooled kids who have never been to school who were often sick. They just had a lot of kids and if one picked up a virus it would work it's way through the family. Granted, the kids may have got much sicker if formula fed but they still got sick.


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Are "common in your geographical area" and "mainstream" the same thing?

To me that is exactly what "mainstream" means. What experts recommend has very little impact on my idea of mainstream since "experts" recommend breastfeeding but the breastfeeding rates in this country are horrifically low.


----------



## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 









I have no idea where you live but it is a bubble I would like to live in too. I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, in one of the most liberal towns in said state. Everything in that list except for spanking is 100% mainstream to the 100th degree.

There are many people around here who do those things, but there's also a lot of diversity. My friends in various medium-to-large cities in the US and Canada have reported the same thing. If you go out and about, you'll see babies in car seats, strollers, slings, front packs, backpacks, etc. Nursing, formula-feeding, and pumping are all common (and then there's the occasional young infant drinking green kool-aid from a bottle







). And all kinds of discipline, or lack thereof. It seems as if there's no single definition of "mainstream," unless perhaps you break it down quite precisely by ethnic, socioeconomic, and religious group.

"Mainstream" for Indian immigrants != "mainstream" for Mexican immigrants.
"Mainstream" for conservative Protestants != "mainstream" for liberal agnostics.
"Mainstream" for college professors != "mainstream" for people without a high school education.

Given that we have many families from of all these groups, and lots more, it seems pretty much impossible to define "mainstream parenting practices" based on what the neighbors do.

OTOH, it's somewhat easier to establish what constitutes "mainstream parenting _advice_." While parents are unlikely to follow this advice to the letter, many do pay attention to it, especially those who are well-read, conscientious, and without a strong commitment to their extended family's traditions. And these days, those parents (again, from what I've seen) will tend to find themselves becoming more inclined toward AP/GD than they would otherwise have been. (Which is kind of funny, given that one of the basic concepts of AP is to "throw out all the expert advice, and just follow your baby's cues." Of course, we also now have a whole publishing industry to tell us how to cook "traditional foods" the way our mostly-illiterate ancestors did.







)


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
The difference is that I don't call anyone names, especially not lazy or selfish, for the way they parent. Of course I think that my choices are beneficial for my children, however, to state that parents who 'plop' their children in front of the TV are lazy and selfish is a ridiculous statement. I don't use the TV as a babysitter. I have three children under the age of 10, two under the age of three, work from home nights from 9p-1a and sometimes I need to breathe, go to the bathroom by myself, take a shower more than once a week, and perhaps even read a book. I am okay putting a DVD in so that I can do that. There is a difference, and perhaps I responded snarkily (for which I apologize) and probably could have phrased better in my response to her. My point is, we've all seen something that another parent did and said...oooooh no, not me...but yet one day, I find myself asking if the kids want to watch Barney so I can sleep for 1/2 hr and not totally lose my sanity. Of course I take offense and respond defensively to someone who insinuates that this action defines my parenting and would somehow have anything to do with the AP that I in fact practice.

Sometimes we take ourselves too seriously, which is what I meant when I said to the OP to get over herself...we really don't know it all in regards to parenting, and probably won't know anything until our kids are 50.










I wonder this a lot because there are so many threads that end up on this topic - why do people care sooo much about how other people define "AP parenting?" Maybe to the OP watching lots of TV does not fit with her version of AP parenting. Why does AP have to be defined so rigidly that we cannot accept that to her it means no TV and to you it means TV is fine?


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I understand what the op is saying, and I think I understand the need to share her thoughts here. Mainstream isn't just _a_ style, but _the_ mainstream style, so if you are making a conscious choice not to go that route, the need for affirmation is probably felt frequently if you are a new parent. Sometimes that's in the form of "I'm having a terrible day, I want to give up on ap" and other times it's "I really am glad we ap, mainstream parenting doesn't look so good at all".

I certainly went into ap because I thought it was best, not because I thought it was just another way to parent, and I know I felt that strongly as a new parent. I didn't want to go the route I was raised, so it was a conscious choice to do something "better". Personally, I think deep down most of us do parent in the way we think is best. I don't think many people are truly neutral.

If I were staying with friends who spanked I would be really upset, and I wouldn't make apologies for that to anyone. I personally am learning to value non judgment, but I don't think these kinds of personal judgments are wrong when I hear others share them--parenting is a process, and many people need to identify this as "right" or "wrong" in order to stay the course they have set as a new parent.

I think that is essentially the kind of feeling the op is sharing. It's true that time does mellow many parents, but I don't think it's at all wrong to be idealistic or to have personal judgments as a result. Honestly, I'd rather see an outspoken idealistic new ap parent than one who is hedging and insecure.


----------



## APCDmama (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:

How about "it must be hard watching someone parenting in a way that you don't agree with". Or, "it sounds like you are doing a great job with your dc, don't worry about others. She's doing the best she can too". There were some posters who took this approach and then there were others where the snark was palpable. It's not necessary.
So nicely said.

It seems like there is more than one topic being discussed here:

- whether it is appropriate to vent certain feelings and "judge" (evaluate? disagree with? comment upon?) the parenting styles/strategies of others

- the definition of NFL, AP parenting, mainstream parenting, etc.

If we need to vent or disagree, we can do it in a postive, constructive way. The word "judge" has such negative connotations. I like what a few PPs said: that we all judge in some way, and that judgment is not necessarily bad, but how we form our own parenting decisions.

I think the thread is moving OT when we start discussing the definition of "mainstream" and "AP". I highly doubt the OP intended to spark a huge debate over whether t.v. watching can be part of attachment parenting, nor did she intend to offend those who use tv as an occasional tool. Sometimes, you have to read past the words to get the real message of a post. KWIM?


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryCeleste* 
Given that we have many families from of all these groups, and lots more, it seems pretty much impossible to define "mainstream parenting practices" based on what the neighbors do.

Exactly. Seeing as how the internet community is extremely diverse, it seems arbitrary and inaccurate to define "mainstream" as what the majority of people in your IRL communities do. I guess we're all just using a different measuring stick on that term, which kind of makes it meaningless.







:


----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
but I just reread the OP's post

I don't really care if the 5 yo falls asleep with the TV on TBH-my oldest went through a phase where he watched TV before falling asleep. It passed. Now maybe it will never occur to the OP's friends to try it without TV but still there are worse things.

Spanking and slapping hands I don't agree with personally. I admit it would be hard for me to watch.

As for the kids not listening and not behaving. It has nothing to do with TV or AP IMO. There are so many factors.

As for being sick. I knew some breastfed,homeschooled kids who have never been to school who were often sick. They just had a lot of kids and if one picked up a virus it would work it's way through the family. Granted, the kids may have got much sicker if formula fed but they still got sick.

I have a friend who had her baby girl 2 weeks after I had mine. She was able to nurse, and last time we tlaked was still nursing (Aroudn 20 months.) I was only able to nurse for a few days.

Her daughter has been sick WAY more than mine. I was really worried about it, too. But mine has NEVER needed antibiotics. She just been a very healthy girl!

Now of course i"m not saying that's due to formula feeding. Just saying you don't know in an individual case. (I actually tend to think of it as in spite of, not because of. or maybe the first few days of nursing even if that's all you manage is very beneficial.)

Oh, and around here, bf is pretty mainstream, as is co-sleeping.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

It's always interesting to see what threads spark off these debates...I can never quite figure out the formula, but for some reason this one got one going.

I just wanted to say to the OP that I really do understand where you're coming from. When my first was a baby, I was highly sensitive to every detail of parenting and the choices we were making. I also had very strong reactions to others and I think that's just part of the natural developmental process that parents go through. We start out very idealistic and compare a lot because the stakes are so high and we are looking for feedback that what we're doing is the best.

As times goes on and the family grows, it does seem that parents enter a different phase of mellowing a bit and needing to be easier on ourselves when we fall short of our ideals....I think that might have been what got sparked a bit here. I am guilty of using the TV for breaks and I am ok with it. My child is limited to a certain amount a day and I rarely go over that (the baby still doesn't watch any...I wonder if he'll go as long as the first did...I doubt it!). That's what works for us. Had you asked me 4 years ago if I would have allowed TV viewing, I might have said 'no way!'....but that was then and this is now and it's all just fine.

I wonder if the moderators have considered having a "debate" section?? It seems that we all long to talk and bounce things around more philosophically. It would be more appropriate, I think, than getting these things started when someone is just reaching out for support or encouragement. Anyone know if this has come up as a suggestion before?


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I understand what the op is saying, and I think I understand the need to share her thoughts here. Mainstream isn't just _a_ style, but _the_ mainstream style, so if you are making a conscious choice not to go that route, the need for affirmation is probably felt frequently if you are a new parent. Sometimes that's in the form of "I'm having a terrible day, I want to give up on ap" and other times it's "I really am glad we ap, mainstream parenting doesn't look so good at all".

I certainly went into ap because I thought it was best, not because I thought it was just another way to parent, and I know I felt that strongly as a new parent. I didn't want to go the route I was raised, so it was a conscious choice to do something "better". Personally, I think deep down most of us do parent in the way we think is best. I don't think many people are truly neutral.

If I were staying with friends who spanked I would be really upset, and I wouldn't make apologies for that to anyone. I personally am learning to value non judgment, but I don't think these kinds of personal judgments are wrong when I hear others share them--parenting is a process, and many people need to identify this as "right" or "wrong" in order to stay the course they have set as a new parent.

I think that is essentially the kind of feeling the op is sharing. It's true that time does mellow many parents, but I don't think it's at all wrong to be idealistic or to have personal judgments as a result. Honestly, I'd rather see an outspoken idealistic new ap parent than one who is hedging and insecure.











Kylix


----------



## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

How about "it must be hard watching someone parenting in a way that you don't agree with". Or, "it sounds like you are doing a great job with your dc, don't worry about others. She's doing the best she can too". There were some posters who took this approach and then there were others where the snark was palpable. It's not necessary.
I wouldn't expect that from complete strangers when the OP can't even offer it to her own sister and friend.


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

The whole AP vs Mainstream dichotomy drives me mental. Actually the AP label drives me pretty mental, especially when there are people here who seem to think it's a club whose membership comes with a checklist.

Where I live (not in Nth America) most people sling their babies and are very physically attached. Most also do not breastfeed. Many use cloth diapers. Some spank. Who is AP?


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Uh huh.

There are crappy parents out there, within all "styles" of parenting.

Yep. I see posts where children are kicking, hitting, and even SPITTING on their parents, and I am just aghast. I don't spank. I do my best not to yell. I try to redirect the toddler as much as possible. I am not perfect, but far from the spanking and yelling my parents did. Yet, my kids don't hit, kick or spit on me.

Kids are all different. No matter what happens, even with the most GD parent on Earth, you are going to have problems sometimes.


----------



## hippy mum (Aug 12, 2006)

I wasn't going to respond as I felt my origional post was getting twisted when all I wanted to do was relay how shocked I was and what difference I saw in the parenting styles in general. I thought this would be a safe place to talk about what I saw in the differences, I guess not. But I had to say thank you to the moms who posted in response to actually understanding the point of my op and not that I was attacking other parenting styles. For the other moms-
After 10 years my friends don't see how maybe trying new would work, and that's on them. We talk about it. Same with my sister-but for her after 10+ years she is trying some new things, but she's also a bit more opend minded than my friend. That said I don't see how pointing out a difference in thier parenting vs our parenting is being mean.
As far as tv. I never said that any tv was bad at all. But it seems that got hilighted and those of you who use it limitedly felt like I was attacking you. We let ds watch up to 30m only imax ocean/animals and maybe nemo. 90% of the time we sit with him and point out the animals, plants etc. The other 10% I might use it to get 10 min of something done in the other room, but never where I can't see him or take a nap. It was my opinion that hours upon hours of tv-where it's left on 24hrs a day for the kids was detrimental and didn't help with behavior/attention-which is exactly what my friend does and she sees the problem, but is afraid of tantrums by turning it off. And that her 5yr old won't sleep. I suggested a trial run to let him cry or sleep with them for a few days with out tv, so the baby doesn't get stuck needing the tv 24/7 as well.
For those of you who think I'm being judgmental and snarky toward my fam/friends-you are being the same way toward me and completely missing the point of my op, which has been brought up by numerous pp. But if you really thought I was that type of person you could check my other posts on mdc and see that I'm open minded, supportive and helpful in every thread I've taken part of. I've never had my words twisted like this anywhere here.
Sorry I brought in bf-has nothing to do with parenting.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

For those of you who think I'm being judgmental and snarky toward my fam/friends-you are being the same way toward me and completely missing the point of my op, which has been brought up by numerous pp. But if you really thought I was that type of person you could check my other posts on mdc and see that I'm open minded, supportive and helpful in every thread I've taken part of. I've never had my words twisted like this anywhere here.
Sorry I brought in bf-has nothing to do with parenting.
I don't think you were being snarky. It sounds like you honestly didn't feel the presence of _attachment_ in that family and many possible "reasons" came into focus during the visit. I think it's easy to get distracted by agreeing/disagreeing with the reasons you gave. I'm hearing the underlying concern that the family didn't seem engaged and attached, the interactions were mostly negative when they did happen, and you felt discouraged. If the parents seemed content with that arrangement, I am sure I'd be thinking "I wish this family would consider ap" or something like that too, in your place.


----------



## Sol (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nznavo* 
The whole AP vs Mainstream dichotomy drives me mental. Actually the AP label drives me pretty mental, especially when there are people here who seem to think it's a club whose membership comes with a checklist.

Where I live (not in Nth America) most people sling their babies and are very physically attached. Most also do not breastfeed. Many use cloth diapers. Some spank. Who is AP?

Same here! Slinging babies seems very common in Europe.

I think of 'mainstream' as being what the most widely-read parenting books books advocate. Things like breastfeeding; not starting solids until 6 months, not spanking/yelling; timeouts; scheduled feeding and routines; fresh, organic food; restricted TV; controlled crying/sleep training. I've not read a mainstream book that encourages spanking or formula over breast!

My parenting is kind of mainstream but ap leaning - I take the bits that work for me but don't subscribe to an overall ideology. I'd guess most people are the same.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bbrandonsmom* 
It was my opinion that hours upon hours of tv-where it's left on 24hrs a day for the kids was detrimental and didn't help with behavior/attention-which is exactly what my friend does and she sees the problem, but is afraid of tantrums by turning it off. And that her 5yr old won't sleep. I suggested a trial run to let him cry or sleep with them for a few days with out tv, so the baby doesn't get stuck needing the tv 24/7 as well.

The real difference in parenting that I see is that your friends don't seem to be willing to try new things. I'm honestly not sure if the baby will become addicted to TV-I believe that some kids can self-regulate and some can't but that's neither here nor there really.

It may be that more or a different kind of structure might be beneficial for their family. It seems from what I'm reading that TV may be a symptom.

Also if she's leaving it on to avoid tantrums that suggests what Barbara Coloroso would call "jellyfish" parenting.


----------



## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sol* 
Same here! Slinging babies seems very common in Europe.

I think of 'mainstream' as being what the most widely-read parenting books books advocate. Things like breastfeeding; not starting solids until 6 months, not spanking/yelling; timeouts; scheduled feeding and routines; fresh, organic food; restricted TV; controlled crying/sleep training. I've not read a mainstream book that encourages spanking or formula over breast!

My parenting is kind of mainstream but ap leaning - I take the bits that work for me but don't subscribe to an overall ideology. I'd guess most people are the same.

I wish I lived where you guys live! It is so rare to see a mom slinging a baby around here (Idaho) and I'm always the "weird" one for still breastfeeding my baby (he's only 14mo!). Even my semi-crunchy mom friends completely weaned by 6 months, put their babies in cribs at least by that same age and have done the whole "sleep training" by one. I get the "oh...just let him cry for a little bit, he'll learn".







: And I'm not out in the country here in Idaho, I'm in the most urban area in the state. Oh well.








Wendi


----------



## seamama11 (Jan 5, 2007)

I think it is good that so many posts on this thread encourage everyone to be open-minded. That being said I can relate a lot to the op. I agree with you, and have experienced some of the same things around my friends and family. I really believe each mama does her best...but I do feel that CIO, not truly interacting with their kids, TOO MUCH TV, spanking and such isn't fair to the child or family as a whole. And I don't care for defining what it means to be ap or nfl. For me it all goes together and falls under the big idea that all living creatures are special and need to be treated with respect, compassion, love, and understanding. People all over our world, our children, animals, the forests. Parenting in a gentle and respectful way for me describes what you do and not what your friend does. I think that is fine to write about and you certainly didn't offend me.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

And I'm not out in the country here in Idaho, I'm in the most urban area in the state. Oh well.
First of all, having lived in a tiny town in the Pacific Northwest, I would like to dispel the myth that we rural-dwellers must not be crunchy. Second of all... okay... now I love Idaho as much as the next woman but I don't think Boise exactly counts as an urban haven. Though it is a lovely city.

Wendi, I love the drooling smiley.


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

I don't think the spirit of the OP was misunderstood. It's one thing to post about parenting practices that you think are detrimental i.e. "too much television" or "giving in to children's tantrums". But that's not what the OP said. She framed it as "AP" versus "mainstream" parenting and inferred that the former produces well-behaved kids and the latter produces badly-behaved kids. Besides the fact that this is simply not true (as a look at this forum clearly shows) it is offensive to parents who consider themselves fairly "mainstream" with some "AP" in the mix. "Mainstream" kids can and do grow up very attached to their parents.

So to the OP, if you are still reading: I'm sure you meant no harm or offense . I get that you feel passionate about your choices and are aggreived at what you saw at your friend's house. But maybe in the future you could stick to the particular parenting practices you observed rather than putting labels on them. Labels are tricky things because, as this discussion shows, real life usually doesn't fit into neat labels.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

in regards to mainstream parenting...

one should never be so open minded that thier brain falls out


----------



## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

: Is this MDC? Just checking.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

FYI!
Posts like this one and a few others ie. WOHM VS SAHM posts that repeatedly keep coming up make newbies uncomfortable (well at least this newbie) and paranoid to share. I'm new and really interested in learning but sometimes I find that these threads are just too negative and make me not want to read....therefore I may miss something that is actually valuable.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk* 
I tend to be judgemental because I like to be right (or at least *think* that I'm right)...._all the time_







. However, I don't really find this an endearing quality in myself, so whenever I find myself being judgemental- even in my private thoughts- I remind myself that parenting is just about the hardest job in the world and the last thing that we need- especially us moms- is to waste time judging each other for the choices we make and the way we parent. It's hard for me to do sometimes because like I said, I love to be right







, but I despise being judged so I try not to do it to others. I'm not going to lie...sometimes it's hard. What can I say, I'm a work in progress







.

Don't forget that we sisters gotta stick together







. It's The Man that likes to keep us on different teams







.

Wow. I was going to write my own post...and then I read this one.
A big "yeah that!"
I can't say it any better.


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrugglingMomX's2* 
FYI!
Posts like this one and a few others ie. WOHM VS SAHM posts that repeatedly keep coming up make newbies uncomfortable (well at least this newbie) and paranoid to share. I'm new and really interested in learning but sometimes I find that these threads are just too negative and make me not want to read....therefore I may miss something that is actually valuable.

Because you think the OP was negative or because people get so snarky in the threads?


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

The OP and if I'm totally honest maybe even her thread title bugged me a bit. I know I can be sensitive as I'm still trying to find my parenting groove, yes even after 15 yes LOL, but I just don't feel welcome when I read posts like that....again maybe because it's just that I'm new and still learning.
Cheers!


----------



## pumpkinseed (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LolaK* 









I have no idea where you live but it is a bubble I would like to live in too. I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, in one of the most liberal towns in said state. Everything in that list except for spanking is 100% mainstream to the 100th degree.

I also live in a place that is exactly like MaryCeleste's and is on the opposite coast. I, too, get so confused when people are comparing AP vs mainstream-because AP is mainstream here-mainstream is a good thing here







And I do not live in a bubble







Also the area is very diverse: people from all walks of life, religions, cultures, different educations and political affiliations.


----------



## pumpkinseed (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryCeleste* 


Spanking is not mainstream. (This applies 100x for the Pearls, et al.)
Formula feeding is not mainstream.
Scheduled feeding is not mainstream.
Giving solids before 6 months is not mainstream.
CIO in the first few months is not mainstream.
Putting baby to sleep in a separate room from the earliest days is not mainstream.

tried to include MaryCeleste's quote in my post above-didn't work! This is what I was referring to...


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Yes, it's MDC.

I guess why I originally posted here was not because I don't feel the plight of the OP- I see her point, that she can really see a difference between her kids, and the kids raised by people with a different style of parenting than her.

But checklists of slogans, artificial dichotomies, and labels are not natural, either. As someone who believes in natural living but who doesn't accept labels, I don't like the idea of dividing the world of mommies into two camps: those who follow AP like a religion, and those who don't ("mainstream", even though many people who aren't AP are not mainstream at all).

For me, there is a spectrum of behavior for nearly every choice we are faced with, be it breastfeeding (CLW? supplementing? using donated milk because of psychological issues?) or birth (homebirth? UC? hospital?) or co-sleeping (in the middle, at arm's reach, or in a cradle), or something else. All Muslims circumcise: does that mean that no Muslim family can be attached and NFL? I don't believe that. There are a lot of things that change from situation to situation.

To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.

The same goes for natural family living.


----------



## pumpkinseed (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.

I guess I should consider myself lucky to live in an area where GD IS mainstream.


----------



## ulla (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.

Do you have a citation for this? That doesn't sound realistic to me.


----------



## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
First of all, having lived in a tiny town in the Pacific Northwest, I would like to dispel the myth that we rural-dwellers must not be crunchy. Second of all... okay... now I love Idaho as much as the next woman but I don't think Boise exactly counts as an urban haven. Though it is a lovely city.

Wendi, I love the drooling smiley.









Yeah....I thought about that when I went to bed last night (the part about rural-dwellers not being cruchy). I have a step-sister in the middle of nowhere, Montana and she's as crunchy as they come.









Wendi


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.
This bears repeating.

I do most of the AP "checklist" of things, but I don't assume for a minute that this means I am more attached to my kid than a parent who doesn't. I do them because they feel right for me and my kid, period. My mother didn't breastfeed, babywear, cosleep, or GD, and we have always been extremely attached because she always loved me and did everything she could for me that she knew how.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

My mother didn't breastfeed, babywear, cosleep, or GD, and we have always been extremely attached because she always loved me and did everything she could for me that she knew how.








Yeah, that.


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
For me, there is a spectrum of behavior for nearly every choice we are faced with, be it breastfeeding (CLW? supplementing? using donated milk because of psychological issues?) or birth (homebirth? UC? hospital?) or co-sleeping (in the middle, at arm's reach, or in a cradle), or something else. All Muslims circumcise: does that mean that no Muslim family can be attached and NFL? I don't believe that. There are a lot of things that change from situation to situation.

To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.

Nicely put.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

okay so....*rubs her aching head* are you all really implying that no matter how we parent our children it doesnt make a difference at all?

and if thats true then why would you put so much effort into something you dont think matters?


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Layla- is that really what you see in the posts above?

You don't see people advocate for a certain level of tolerance, based on the fact that we have not lived others' lives; for an understanding that in life, there are shades of gray; that you can't divide the whole world into two camps, those of AP ("good") and "mainstream" ("bad")? All you can see in those posts is that "how we parent doesn't matter at all"?

I think that is a very simplistic way to look at things. It might be easy to categorize the world into "good" (the way "we" do it, AP or whatever, you're AP if you check off all these things on the list) and "bad" (if you're not with us, AP, then you must be "mainstream", viz. "bad") but it's simply not accurate.

The beef that some of us have with the post was not that there was a judgement call on particular actions, but that it was framed as a criticism of "mainstream", which was also sort of conflated into meaning, "everything which is not AP and which would result in a poorly raised child".

I have very strong opinions on what is best for my baby and for other people's babies. But since I cannot imagine every single situation that every other person could face, I try to withhold judgement unless I can see very clearly that the action violates the most important principles- like if it is not loving, if it is not done with the best intentions, if it is done not for the sake of the child but out of selfishness, etc.

I also don't like labels and checklists. For me, a good night's sleep is more than one in which me and baby are in the same bed. A good meal for baby is more than one in which she has a boob in her mouth. Attachment comes from more than just seven or eight activities that are advocated by one or two doctors in a couple of books. It's much deeper and more compex (and yet, simpler) than that.

I will repeat that I'm not opposed to some judgement, what I don't like is the attitude that it's AP or nothing, that there's only one way to respond to every situation, and that it always works. I just think that's not true.


----------



## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
I don't think the spirit of the OP was misunderstood. It's one thing to post about parenting practices that you think are detrimental i.e. "too much television" or "giving in to children's tantrums". But that's not what the OP said. She framed it as "AP" versus "mainstream" parenting and inferred that the former produces well-behaved kids and the latter produces badly-behaved kids. Besides the fact that this is simply not true (as a look at this forum clearly shows) it is offensive to parents who consider themselves fairly "mainstream" with some "AP" in the mix. "Mainstream" kids can and do grow up very attached to their parents.

So to the OP, if you are still reading: I'm sure you meant no harm or offense . I get that you feel passionate about your choices and are aggreived at what you saw at your friend's house. But maybe in the future you could stick to the particular parenting practices you observed rather than putting labels on them. Labels are tricky things because, as this discussion shows, real life usually doesn't fit into neat labels.









I find it impossible to say this does that.. with regards to BEHAVIOUR. One of my closest friends was raised hardcore AP, and she really was a little brat at times.. and as a young adult was very selfish and had a lot of um, not so desirable qualities. I love her.. but it's true. I had zero attachment to my parents, was physically and emotionally abused and was extremely "well behaved" oh my parents should be so proud for raising such a good kid.







: It was just me. Oh wait, maybe being afraid of being screamed at or hit. I didn't ever want to be "bad" though, it just didn't interest me. Kids are so different.. the most we can do is practice what we feel is *best* and love them and love them and love them... oh yeah, and make sure they know they're loved and accepted.


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

*Izobelle said it better than I could*

Layla, I put effort into determining what I think is the best way to parent because I want to find methods that work for her and me. But, with the exception of bad or abusive parenting, I believe that (most) parents who do things differently have the same desires, they just came to different conclusions than I. Babywearing or playpen, breast or bottle, cloth diaper or disposables, vax or non, taking away priveleges or consensual living.... Loving parents can do all of these. You might disagree with my choices in these areas or I might disagree with yours, but the bottom line is we don't know each other's situations the way we know our own, and as long as our intentions are loving the chances are all of our kids will grow up happy. So what's the point of judging?

Judging bad or abusive parenting, sure. But the OP was vilifying "mainstream parenting" which is really broad, essentially undefinable, and includes a lot of good moms including my own. So I don't see the point.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
okay so....*rubs her aching head* are you all really implying that no matter how we parent our children it doesnt make a difference at all?

and if thats true then why would you put so much effort into something you dont think matters?

the biggest thing for me is that I ap because I believe it's the right thing for my kids. I don't believe that ap is outcome-based. I don't for a minute believe that ap OR crunchy parenting guarantees perfectly behaved kids. It doesn't IME.

I also don't see such a big difference between "ap" and "mainstream" parenting as kids get older. I see many "mainstream" parents who may not have breastfeed very long but use gentle discipline and are very loving and attached.

I also have seen parents who ap'ed and were crunchy who are not gentle with their kids and TBH are not nice to their kids.

I think ap is the best way to meet babies needs BUT as kids get older their needs change. Many parents may not ap babies but they still use ap practices as their kids get older.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
Layla- is that really what you see in the posts above?

You don't see people advocate for a certain level of tolerance, based on the fact that we have not lived others' lives; for an understanding that in life, there are shades of gray; that you can't divide the whole world into two camps, those of AP ("good") and "mainstream" ("bad")? All you can see in those posts is that "how we parent doesn't matter at all"?

well if people have issue with a post called 'ap/mainstream = big difference' uh yeah...it does look that way....

maybe if you replaced the words 'good' and 'bad' with 'optimal' and 'not optimal' ill say you totally can divide things into those groups. well if you add a neutral too... but most of mainstream parenting isnt neutral. most of it isnt optimal. people can get thier panties in a tangle over that if they want to but i just dont get how its commonplace on mdc to defend mainstream practices.


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

I think izobelle might be my internet hero.

Poxybat, I parent the way I do because it feels good.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
Judging bad or abusive parenting, sure. But the OP was vilifying "mainstream parenting" which is really broad, essentially undefinable, and includes a lot of good moms including my own. So I don't see the point.

so is the issue that mainstream parents are feeling attacked?
because that makes this thread make sense...


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nznavo* 
Poxybat, I parent the way I do because it feels good.

so do i, and i firmly believe that if youre secure in your parenting you wont care what anyone else thinks.


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

Are you suggesting I do? I was simply answering your question upthread.


----------



## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

I loathe dichotomies of all kinds, believing the distinctions to be, if not false, then inadequate ways of describing life in the real world.

That said, occasionally, I will use the terms, ap or mainstream, to make a distinction that makes sense in a certain context. For example, the other day I talked about my friend who nurses her niece and the types of reactions that she gets from other mothers. I would say that, for the most part, it is the more mainstream mothers who express discomfort with the idea. I am loathe to assume, however, that anyone can be put into a 'parenting category' since many values and techniques overlap. Although, I must also say that it is comforting to find someone who is familiar with the concept of "attachment parenting" because in some places, allies are few and far between.


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
the biggest thing for me is that I ap because I believe it's the right thing for my kids. I don't believe that ap is outcome-based. I don't for a minute believe that ap OR crunchy parenting guarantees perfectly behaved kids. It doesn't IME.

I also don't see such a big difference between "ap" and "mainstream" parenting as kids get older. I see many "mainstream" parents who may not have breastfeed very long but use gentle discipline and are very loving and attached.

I also have seen parents who ap'ed and were crunchy who are not gentle with their kids and TBH are not nice to their kids.

I think ap is the best way to meet babies needs BUT as kids get older their needs change. Many parents may not ap babies but they still use ap practices as their kids get older.









: I'm at work so I can't post more but having a 15 yo and 21 mo I absolutely agree with you, what's important when your kids are small really matters less when they grow up. I feel bad at times that my eldest was not BF but at 15 he really does not care.

Shay


----------



## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

What an interesting discussion! I really hate seeing people gang up on posters looking for a little "yeah that," once in a while. I think sometimes we post because we are looking for outside support for our choices. That's not even about being insecure, it's just about feeling part of a larger community of like-minded people, IMO.

I have to laugh at the idea of AP being mainstream. Here in the DC area the norm is formula feeding. The stats I guess are that 70% of moms nationwide try to breastfeed, but that does not translate to duration of time or nursing in public. I have yet to even see another mama breastfeed here (I mean in my entire life), except for moms I know from my AP group. At LLL meetings here even many LLL leaders admit they don't/won't nurse in public. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, but I do not think it is the norm.

My ped just recommended I start my 4 month old on solids. That is mainstream.

My SIL has no shame about slapping her six year old in public. That is mainstream.

My brother screams, yells, shames, and enforces time-outs on his kids... that is mainstream. (BTW their kids are beautiful and wonderful. I believe they'll have issues related to this though, only because *I* do... my brother is 9 years older than me and used many of the same tactics on me when I was a kid.)

I saw a mama recently at a store shopping with her brand newborn (3 weeks-ish) in a pram with a bottle propped in her mouth. The mom was a few feet away from the pram checking out clothes. That is mainstream.

At least it is here! I've lived in the DC area my whole life. Now you all sure are making me want to move to California, but California is really not America. It's like its own little country. If it weren't so $$$ to live there, I'd be there!







I think even people who aren't "crunchy" to you in CA, are probably kind of "crunchy" to the majority of the US! LOL!

I DO however believe that some aspects of the AP lifestyle are becoming more mainstream. I say "some aspects of the AP lifestyle," because the reality is that there is not a checklist. If you check out the API website AP is described as "behaviors which foster attachment." That is it. That can be MANY different things. Some things are generally thought to foster attachment, like breastfeeding, and some to foster detachment, like spanking... but there is still a HUGE range of behaviors in there and it is tough to judge from the outside. And many parents do things from many parts of the parenting spectrum.

Now I have a friend who describes herself as AP and is constantly talking about other moms she knows... "Oh, she is not really AP!" I'm like... why? Is it a club? Do you get to decide who belongs? I really hate that attitude.







:

BTW vaxing has nothing whatsoever to do with AP.







:


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
so is the issue that mainstream parents are feeling attacked?
because that makes this thread make sense...

Not really. I wouldn't consider myself mainstream and I don't feel attacked, although several other posters have stated that the judgemental attitude makes them wary of posting here.

The OP sets up a false dichotomy. What is AP and what is mainstream? With all the discussions of "mainstream" on this thread, people give their own experiences and it's all different. The behaviors prettypixel describes in her post as "mainstream" in DC are definitely NOT "mainstream" where I come from in the U.S., and no I'm not from California, I'm from Washington state. So we can't really define "mainstream". As for AP, at its core it simply means to create a loving attached relationship with your children; my mom didn't do any of the AP "rules" but she loved me and spent time with me and created opportunities for me and we are close because of that. So it's doing a disservice to AP to reduce it to a list of behaviors that one does or doesn't do.

The labels simply are not helpful at all, and they are hurtful because they create an "us vs. them" dynamic. That's what I'm responding to in the OP.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

so now youre taking the stance of not knowing what mainstream is.

i think ill just go over here now....


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

GD is certainly not mainstream in the U.S. Individuals may find GD communities in specific geographic locations, but the country as a whole is not GD.

You can find statistics similar to these all over the net. The following is from

http://www.neverhitachild.org/unspar1.html

Quote:

Here are some facts about spanking, culled from several recent national surveys of parents:

- 68 percent of American parents think spanking is not only good but essential to child rearing;

- 90 percent of parents spank their toddlers at least three times a week; two-thirds spank them once a day;

- One in four parents begin to spank when their child is 6 months old, 50 percent when their child is 12 months old;

- 52 percent of 13- and 14-year-olds get spanked; 20 percent of high school seniors do.

For someone like me, who was spanked once as a child and doesn't believe in spanking as a parent, these statistics were stunning. Healthy skeptic that I am, I decided to ask parents attending workshops at Families First, a parent education resource in Cambridge, to answer a questionnaire on spanking. To my further surprise, their responses mirrored the national surveys. Of 63 parents, 39, or nearly 62 percent, said they spank.

Sociologist Murray Strauss, the nation's foremost researcher on spanking, was surprised only that the numbers weren't higher. He attributes that to geography: Studies show parents in the Northeast spank the least, parents in the South, the most.
Also remember that public school spanking is legal in approximately half of all states in the U.S.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle*
To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.

This bears repeating.

I do most of the AP "checklist" of things, but I don't assume for a minute that this means I am more attached to my kid than a parent who doesn't. I do them because they feel right for me and my kid, period. My mother didn't breastfeed, babywear, cosleep, or GD, and we have always been extremely attached because she always loved me and did everything she could for me that she knew how.


Superficial?

Perhaps the idea of attachment as a litmus test is... But let's cut to the heart of the matter - in the GD forum, let's go with GD. Are you (any "you" taking this general position, that is) willing to stand behind the idea that spanking, shaming, or otherwise unfairly wielding parental power over children (and I'm including the whole spectrum here, so let's not get bogged down on a tangent about particulars...) does _*not*_ damage them, and therefore the parent / child relationship?








:


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Let's keep in mind the forum guidelines for Gentle Discipline:

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.
Also the following MDC statement:

Quote:

Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents. The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"Superficial?

But let's cut to the heart of the matter - in the GD forum, let's go with GD. Are you (any "you" taking this general position, that is) willing to stand behind the idea that spanking, shaming, or otherwise unfairly wielding parental power over children (and I'm including the whole spectrum here, so let's not get bogged down on a tangent about particulars...) does not damage them, and therefore the parent / child relationship?"

I would absolutely never say that shaming a child, for example, was not damaging. I don't see how that flows out of anything that I've said. All I've said is that there is not a simple dichotomy of AP and mainstream, with one being simply good and the other being simply bad or somehow damaging.

For one thing, we have Canadians, British, Australians, and Americans, and people from other, non-English speaking countries on this board. What is mainstream in one state or province is not mainstream in another. What is mainstream among poor families is not always accepted among upper-middle class ones. When we suggest that mainstream is not a cut-and-dry parenting philosophy that is diametrically opposed to attachment parenting- that's just to say you can be attached without co-sleeping.

I just don't understand how we got from a very basic statement- that parenting is not black and white, as in "AP or not", to spanking is OK.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Aside from the fact that you refuse to use the quote function, why did you snip my post without noting that you did so? What you left out is speaking to everything else you said following.

Please take care to quote properly.


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
But let's cut to the heart of the matter - in the GD forum, let's go with GD. Are you (any "you" taking this general position, that is) willing to stand behind the idea that spanking, shaming, or otherwise unfairly wielding parental power over children (and I'm including the whole spectrum here, so let's not get bogged down on a tangent about particulars...) does _*not*_ damage them, and therefore the parent / child relationship?

Of course not. But this thread is not titled "AP/spanking, shaming, and unfairly wielding parental power = big difference". There are plenty of parents who would be considered "mainstream" by this board who do not spank or shame. My objection is to the use of a vague, unhelpful labels rather than simply focusing on the specific behaviors involved. That's what I've been saying from the start, it's why I've been putting the word "mainstream" in quotes.

I don't argue that spanking is still the dominant paradigm in the U.S. But the word "mainstream" encompasses so much more than just discipline style. Say a mother doesn't spank but bottle feeds, doesn't sling, and sleeps separately from her child. She would be considered "mainstream", right?


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I don't argue that spanking is still the dominant paradigm in the U.S. But the word "mainstream" encompasses so much more than just discipline style. Say a mother doesn't spank but bottle feeds, doesn't sling, and sleeps separately from her child. She would be considered "mainstream", right?
The OP's family in question did spank. For me personally, and perhaps for others, that resolved any doubt as to whether the OP was justified in drawing a line between ap/mainstream in this instance. I can see where some definitions of gd are too narrow, but I think the OP correctly assumed she was not dealing with an ap/gd family. I understand that was mixed in with other decisions that were irrelevant (tv use). I understand that was called out as such (irrelevant). But even without the addition of those items she wasn't describing gd, kwim?

Perhaps I'm trying to get clear in my own head what is being debated...


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

No-one is advocating spanking at all, and I'm not really sure how it came into the debate. Some of us are resisting the labelling that is at the heart of this thread. To me, it's simplistic and not useful.

Where I'm from spanking is illegal. It certainly isn't "mainstream". I feel like this label is being tossed around like it has some inherent meaning. It doesn't.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

But this thread is not titled "AP/spanking, shaming, and unfairly wielding parental power = big difference".
Where's the "yeah that" smiley?


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Heartmama- for me, the question is whether everyone who is not AP is mainstream, and whether it's useful to have just two labels, one of which encompasses all that is good and attachment, and another which encompasses all that is bad and detached.

When we frame it as AP vs. mainstream, that is what we do. We take billions of parents and say: okay, either you're with us (how many AP activities do you have to check off to be with us?) or against us (are you a circumcising Muslim family? does your baby sleep better by herself? do you spank? do you beat the crap out of your toddler? you must be "mainstream"). I personally don't like that mentality.

For me, parenting is a spectrum. Dr. Sears used to advocate spanking- was he not attached at that time? The OP- and again, I do sympathise with her feelings after what she saw- has taken one family at one point in their lives and used it to form an idea of a polar-type dichotomy that just doesn't exist.

And the whole mainstream label to encompass everyone from people who live as Pirates and also spank to, say, upper class twits who don't but who send their kids to boarding school at six, to my mom is not helpful either.


----------



## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

bbrandonsmom, I was thinking of you this morning and wanted to give you a


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Another







to you, mama. I know you didn't have any intention of starting a debate with your post.

I think that there are many of us here, though, that get a lot out of these discussions. It would be so nice if there was a place on MDC where we could have these more philosophical/theoretical discussions. They keep popping up in threads where that wasn't the intial intention and I'm sure it makes the OP feel uncomfortable.

Can't we have a forum for discussions on broader topics??


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Alright, so you're saying that the bone of contention here is the term "mainstream". Right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao*
As for AP, at its core it simply means to create a loving attached relationship with your children; my mom didn't do any of the AP "rules" but she loved me and spent time with me and created opportunities for me and we are close because of that. So it's doing a disservice to AP to reduce it to a list of behaviors that one does or doesn't do.

This quote seems to exemplify the idea that you're putting across, right?

The issue is that you're making a false dichotomy that sort of supercedes the one you're talking about. It's not either a checklist or a parenting free-for-all. There are gradiations of parenting choices that we can say are optimal and others that are not. AP is not just a mystical, undefined "spirit" of parenting - a vague intention - nor is it a rigid checklist. And to cast it as such is this larger false dichotome.

We can talk about these things with a common understanding that some parenting choices meet children's needs and others don't. There are qualifiable aspects to parenting that are superior in terms of healthy outcome for a child. BFing is one. (That takes on many shapes and forms, like in my case EPing.) GD is another aspect that, at least on this board, is not debatable as a superior choice to shaming, smacking, or punative measures. On MDC, we don't take the stance that circ has no effect on babies, and therefore AP - we simply don't discuss religious circ. It's not the same as saying "It doesn't matter." I've also seen many times on the Nighttime Forum where people are supported for having a baby who prefers solitary sleep. The point is it's meeting the needs of the child and not ignoring them.

If your mom spanked, left you alone, and whatever else, you may have overcome the lack of needs-meeting in those areas, and put it into a perspective that she really did her best. You may be close with her now. But that is not the same as AP. And that being the case doesn't mean then that AP is a "checklist".

Distilling these things down to a "checklist" doesn't serve the cause anymore than what you're miffed about the OP doing. She used a shorthand way of communicating apoint. So are you. It's not a checklist. The biggest difference I see, is that she truncated a valid concept backed with vast knowledge that supports attachment practices as the superior choices. And she did it in a way that communicated exactly what she meant to others who are feeling her pain.

This really gets to the idea that those who are up in arms about the way she chose to convey the concept of "sup-optimal parenting choices" as mainstream, are feeling something like guilt. What are we debating here? That optimal parenting choices are mainstream? Heartmama posted links addressing that. Seems an absurd thing to get offended over. Are we debating the idea that everyone gets to do what they want with their kids without "judgement"? This is what was expressed back on page 1. Very different than how things are being framed on pages 5-6... Feeling those goalposts changing around...


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

This really gets to the idea that those who are up in arms about the way she chose to convey the concept of "sup-optimal parenting choices" as mainstream, are feeling something like guilt. What are we debating here? That optimal parenting choices are mainstream? Heartmama posted links addressing that. Seems an absurd thing to get offended over.
I don't feel guilty OR offended. I do feel sorry that the OP feels that some of us were twisting her meaning. I do understand her general feeling- that their actions, and the theory behind them- are not doing these kids good. She is sorry for the children and is glad that she can do better for hers. Boy, can I sympathise! However I would not lump all non-AP practicers into the mainstream, and I would not lump all followers of Dr. Spock into a strictly non-attachment category.

I agree that an AP/GD theory thread or sub-forum might be interesting and take some of the pressure off people who are posting from the heart and who don't want to get into the philosophical stuff.


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

I think much if the time it is just easier to say "mainstream" or "AP" instead of writing a paragraph about what they mean to you. My guess is that if you polled all the MDC members _at least_ 80% of them would come up with pretty similar definitions. So for the sake of quick prose when you have a baby or toddler calling you I think using words like that is pretty handy.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"My guess is that if you polled all the MDC members at least 80% of them would come up with pretty similar definitions."

Really? Off to start a spinoff thread on that.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Why bother? Check the guidelines in each forum. It's clear and well-defined what we hold as optimal and why.

This is MDC, right?


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 

This really gets to the idea that those who are up in arms about the way she chose to convey the concept of "sup-optimal parenting choices" as mainstream, are feeling something like guilt.

Why should I feel guilt? I'm comfortable with my parenting choices.

I just take umbrage at the fact that somebody like my friend who didn't BF, gave me her baby sling after trying it once, and whose son sleeps in his own room (and always has) is a SUB-OPTIMAL PARENT.

On the contrary, she is a WONDERFUL mother. She has made different choices along the path than some of you might have made, but that doesn't mean her kid is going to grow up any worse off than yours is.

I love AP parenting and it's the way to go for our family, but for crying out loud, it's not the only way to bring up kids successfully. What a narrow world view to think that it is.


----------



## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Right but the OP was talking about her friend, not yours. She said in that situation she clearly saw a connection between the way the kids turned out and the way they had been parented.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
Why bother? Check the guidelines in each forum. It's clear and well-defined what we hold as optimal and why.

This is MDC, right?









Amen. I feel like some posters have started an arguing point and are going to follow it til the grave. Who cares what the definition of mainstream is? I got what the OP was saying. It seems like even the people have started this sideline debate got what the OP was saying. Who cares if the label wasn't used correctly.

The point is there is no perfect mainstream and AP label. The labels' usefulness is only in its communication among people. If we get into the pointless debates about what is mainstream and what is not when we are clearly on MDC which has clear board guidelines (supports breastfeeding, not spanking, not circumcising, and cosleeping options), it just doesn't make sense and it just becomes semantics. AP is not a checklist. But, there are specific AP practices.

Also, saying that some parenting practices are more optimal, more beneficial or more nutritious than other practices does NOT mean that parents who don't use these practices, for whatever reason, are bad parents or are SUBOPTIMAL parents.

But, it's not "whatever works" when it comes to being a parent. Having said that, I don't believe in condemning parents or judging them as people but do I judge parenting practices and weigh some as better than others? Absolutely. I wouldn't be here at MDC if I didn't.

Kylix


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Well said, chinaKat. This is the problem I have with presuming that one way is superior to another. Most parents are doing the best they can.

And I find the implication that opinions like this don't belong on MDC incredibly irritating. It gets to feeling like a sorority of sorts where critical thinking is not valued. Isn't a diversity of opinion interesting? It's curious to me that threads like this get so hostile and defensive...boards like the utnecafe don't ever get like this and often very differing views are posting and challenging one another...respectfully.

I am doing the very best that I can for my children, but I would in no way suggest that my way is somehow better than someone else's (with the exception of verbal, emotional and physical abuse, of course). Of course I think that I'm making the best choices for my children...but that is what fits me and my kids.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I know several people who don't co-sleep, used CIO, never bf, always used strollers etc...

But now they use GD and now that their kids are older, anyone would admire the families they have built: closely bonded, fun loving, happy, with kids who are every parent's dream.

As someone here said, I think its almost impossible to build a great family if you shame or demean children. But those who do things differently than I do can certainly do so, and often do a great job of it.


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Aira, I'm trying to figure out how to say this so it's clear. I am not setting up a false dichotomy saying that AP is either so vague as to be meaningless or so rigid it is nothing more than a list. What I am saying is that the range of behaviors advocated by AP is very wide and when played out in actual family situations will often overlap with what many people on this board would call "mainstream" behaviors. So a given family may be (for lack of better terms) hard-core AP; or AP with some mainstream mixed in; or mainstream with some AP mixed in. Also, in terms of results acheived, there is the fact that some completely "mainstream" families can do manage to raise attached kids (I'm one) and some completely "AP" families occasionally produce very self-absorbed kids. So while I understand that labelling can simplify things, it can also distort the complexity of reality and alienate people. By casting the family with poor parenting as a "mainstream" family the OP implied that all "mainstream" families are like this and all "AP" families are wonderful, even though that was not her intention.

And when I read these boards I do not see that AP or GD is so easily defined. Yes, there are guidelines in the forum; there are also countless threads trying to parse exactly what those guidelines mean. Is it okay to use any kind of force with a kid? Are timeouts GD? What is coercion? Etc etc. People come to different conclusions and so the definition varies from family to family, just as the definition of "mainstream" varies dependending on where one lives (like the poster who lives in a country where spanking is illegal and so is definitely not "mainstream". Or don't non-US members count?).

As for the idea that those of us who are saying this are really just secretly guilty that we aren't practicing optimal parenting, I have to say that is insulting. Like we should only be concerned about the feelings of families that might be considered "mainstream" if we personally are one. Well, I can assure you that if you came and lived with my family for a week, you'd probably consider us "AP" so that is not my motivation. Nor do I see that we have "moved any goalposts"; there are multiple issues under discussion (definition of AP and Mainstream, whether AP is the only way to raise well-adjusted kids, labelling leading to judging...). I think the discussion would go better if we did not try to ascribe ulterior motives to each other.


----------

