# resale on ebay



## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

There have been many "hyena" diapers going for above retail on ebay lately. Discussion?


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## Sugarwoman (Mar 12, 2004)

I have mixed feelings about the high prices that some items go for on eBay. I personally will not pay more than retail for hyena items. I just can't do it. Thus, I have to stalk like crazy to get FCB, el bee, KP and Luxe items. Yet, I think eBay is nice in ways because it gives everyone a fair shot at an item and they determine the price they are willing to pay for it.

I do feel it is wrong to buy a hyena item and just turn around and put it on eBay to make a profit on it. I feel it isn't fair to the WAHM. I have never done that because I have a very hard time letting go of my hyena items and only do so when they no longer fit my ds.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sugarwoman*
I do feel it is wrong to buy a hyena item and just turn around and put it on eBay to make a profit on it. I feel it isn't fair to the WAHM. I have never done that because I have a very hard time letting go of my hyena items and only do so when they no longer fit my ds.

its not that they turn right around and do it but buy it and soon after they have gotten their use choose to put it on ebay to milk it for the money.
There is no way you can honestly tell me these elbees in the past few weeks on ebay havent been put straight on their for the money.


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

I honestly don't get why people pay such high prices for used stuff on ebay. I mean, even take Motherease. They go for 6 bucks minimum used. I found some super cheap once on a BIN so I have 7. But before I'd pay 6 dollars, I'd just buy new ones for $3 more.

As far as the hyena stuff, it's all just silly IMO. I mean, the baby only wears it for 2 hours max, then into the laundry it goes. I got into cloth diapering largely for the cost savings though AND my baby isnt' a heavy wetter or particularly hard to fit, so that could be partly why I don't get it.

And buying things just to put them on ebay could definitely backfire if the lust for the item goes down too quickly and they can't get their money back. I got 2 new SOS's for $12 each recently. I don't think that that person was just trying to resell at a huge profit or anything though.


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## Sugarwoman (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
its not that they turn right around and do it but buy it and soon after they have gotten their use choose to put it on ebay to milk it for every penny they can get.
There is no way you can not honestly tell me these elbees in the past few weeks on ebay havent been put straight on their for the money.

Yes, I agree that it is probably an item that was quickly out grown or something of that sort. About the el bees, I'm taking the 5th. I don't want to assume anything about anyone.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sugarwoman*
Yes, I agree that it is probably an item that was quickly out grown or something of that sort. About the el bees, I'm taking the 5th. I don't want to assume anything about anyone.

I do want to assume because it is pretty obvious when a dipe goes for $60 and all the sudden a bunch pop up after that, its VERY suspicious. And I did have 1 mom(a friend) tell me(comment) she wanted to ebay her elbees for the money.


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## Sugarwoman (Mar 12, 2004)

SEEPAE, yeah, I see your point.


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## mom2orionplus1 (Sep 17, 2004)

I personally don't have the funds to spend the money that some do on Ebay so I just watch and enjoy. I think it's one thing when a new diaper that the original diaper maker (for example Fluffymail) puts on sells for a higher price. Then I know that the WAHM is getting the money that she deserves.

However, I do think it is a bit much when some of these used (and stained) items are going for more than what they originally resell for. I know that the hyena items absolutely rock and that is why they are coined that. But are there not other non-hyena dipes out there that potentially work just as well? The question is are people buying these dipes because of the way they work, fit, etc. or just to say they scored a (fill in the blank with your favorite hyena item)?


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I see both sides of this issue and I don't have a strong opinion on it in general. Personally, I would not put a WAHM item on ebay just for the money. I see that as exploiting the WAHM and her hard work. What if all WAHM's decided to only sell on Ebay? I think the Elbee making mama is generous to sell her dipes off ebay! She could make good money if she weren't kind enough to sell the way she does.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2orionplus1*
I think it's one thing when a new diaper that the original diaper maker (for example Fluffymail) puts on sells for a higher price. Then I know that the WAHM is getting the money that she deserves.

I think the WAHM auctions are awesome! I dont care how they go for and someone pays, if I had a lot of money Id have bid on the FM auctions too, its profiting off someone elses work that gets me.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Doesn't bother me a bit. I think people should get as much as they can for their property. I don't think it's unfair to the WAHM, either. If a WAHM is only charging half the market value for her items, that's HER choice. She can set whatever price she likes. In fact, in a way, I wish that these ebay auctions would serve as a wake-up call to the hyena WAHMs that they are severely underpricing their wares, and they should jack up their prices a few notches. The downside of that is that, if they do that, I personally won't be able to buy any hyena items, but at least the WAHMs would get what they really should get for their work, instead of letting the ebay auctioneers get the lion's share of the profit on the dipe. I realize, of course, that the WAHMs are just being nice and want everyone to be able to buy their diapers, which I really appreciate as a poor person, but they shouldn't be surprised when the items re-sell at their true market value.


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## stacey0402 (Aug 16, 2003)

I've changed my mind since posting







: I'm going to sleep on this and find something brilliant to say in the morning


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

since we are on the Elbee topic I just wanted to say FYI She _is_ raising her prices and by what she marked on the customs form as the retail it looks like its going to be a $10CDN increase


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
She _is_ raising her prices and by what she marked on the customs form as the retail it looks like its going to be a $10CDN increase









Good for her!









Bad for me!


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Good for her!









Bad for me!


















yeah I know, LOL, that just means if I ever got an order in the future id get 2 or more less
but the increase wont take place for a good while


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
There is no way you can honestly tell me these elbees in the past few weeks on ebay havent been put straight on their for the money.

Well this thread is perfect timing as I list my hyena stuff on ebay just last night









I think that comment is so judjemental and RUDE.I listed an el bee last night on ebay and you know what it was for the money.I have hit very hard times and am selling everything.We are having to pack up and move because we are losing our house.I just had my son's birthday and Christmas in a row and now have my taxes due.So yes I need money and chose to put an el bee on ebay instead of the tp.If people will pay above retail , as I have in the past , then sometimes in life you need to not always do what everyone considers the right thing.I am not hurting anyone.

Statements like that just really make me want to leave this place for good.How dare anyone be judged for where they sell an item.Should I add the disclaimer to my auctions that yes I need money right now but in the past month have spent almost $300 on Christmas for needy families and shipping their boxes.Listing something for money on ebay in no way reflects on who I am as a person.

And too talk about two other members here and what they listed and said on the tp is horrible too.We all know who you are talking about and how awful to put them on the spot like that.Also it is against the rules.









Wow I am beyond angry right now.Seriously I just want to know if all you who sit around judging every one else's actions need a life or what.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Jaime. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. I joined the debate and stated what *I* feel comfortable with. It doesn't mean the opposite is bad or wrong (at least IMO).

I'm so sorry to hear things are rough for you financially right now. I know how it is, and I hope things look up for you soon.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Its al about supply and demand really. There no supply and huge demand. I sold and Elbee before Christmas for less than $30. I tried it out didnt think it was all it was hyped up to be, I mean really my son peed right through it in one pee. It's no better than what I can sew my self, and I thought ok I need $ for Christmas it makes no sense to keep it so I sold it. I had a total of $70 to spend on my 4 kids and DH with that $, so it almost doubled my Christmas budget and was able to actually get my kids some presents they wouldn't have had any. So yeah I feel totally fine I sold it.

It comes down to this, if someone is dumb enought to pay that much $ for a diaper than let them. But don't blame it on the mamma who is selling it for much needed cash. It's not her fault.


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lindsaylou*







Jaime. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. I joined the debate and stated what *I* feel comfortable with. It doesn't mean the opposite is bad or wrong (at least IMO).

I'm so sorry to hear things are rough for you financially right now. I know how it is, and I hope things look up for you soon.

Thanks.I don't like that I have to explain my actions and put my personal business out for all to see just to defend myself and explain that I am not greedy.

I am really mad not just for me but the other people who are being talked about in this thread.I happen to know they do a lot of giving to others.So how can anyone feel they can judge someone by the simple act of listing things on ebay.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goddess3_2005*
It comes down to this, if someone is dumb enought to pay that much $ for a diaper than let them.

Um, the people who *sell* hyena diapers on ebay aren't the only ones who read this board. The people who *buy* hyena diapers on ebay also read this board. In fact, I think most of us here, at one time or another, have paid more than we really should have for a diapering item.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Why don't you all who have major problems with the way the free market is working come up with a manual on used diaper sales ettique covering topics such as:

1. Is the MDC TP the only place we are allowed in good conscience to sell highly sought after diapers that we own but for our own personal reasons, wish to sell?

2. Do we have to publish valid reasons, with proof, for wishing to sell them? e.g. picture of babe with diaper around body but obviously too tight or picture of diaper on tightest settings but still too big for babe and falling down.... Or perhaps financial statments proving how much $$ is actually needed, and also written proof of good deeds and charity work done that year?

3. A price guide on used items allowing what we are allowed to accept for our used items: If the diaper is used for one month, how much depreciation from resale value is mandated, etc? (Clearly getting full market value is unethical based on the feelings I see expressed here, as is auctioning an item if there is a chance it will go above retail)

I'd really like to know---most of us who are 'offenders' are just mamas who aren't trying to screw anyone, but apparently have erred gravely nonetheless.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Sorry, I could have worded that a little better.







I was feeling a little hurt by the comments.

but seriously if someone is willing to pay $ for and item, whos to say the person is wrong for selling it to them. And for that matter (after some calmed down thought) if you have the $ to spend, and its worth it to you, then go for it, its not wrong to pay what you feel an item is worth either.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *averymybaby*
It is making it harder and harder for those of us who refuse to pay such inflated prices to get good quality diapers.


I feel bad for diaper sewing WAHMs reading this thread who for whatever reason don't have the overwhelming demand for their products like elbee and fluffymail do, but nonetheless make extremely good quality diapers.
No one can say that while FCB and elbee are awesome, they are the only 'good quality diapers' out there, and that there aren't lots of other WAHM goods sitting around instock or available for custom order right away.

Bottom line, FCB and elbee are not THE only good quality diapers available, so implying that if you can't purchase those because they are going for too high a price on ebay, you won't be able to get quality diapers is kind of mean to other diapering WAHMs. Ebay sales are not keeping anyone from getting good quality diapers.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I am going with Butterflymom on this one. I don't think anyone should be made to feel bad about this. Nor should anyone have to make excuses about why they are putting something up for bid like Jamie.

Does it upset me? Maybe it makes me sad. I won't pay that much for something unless it is for charity. I am sad because it makes it harder to get these diapers in good used condition. I would like to get some more FCB size 2s because I dig the fit. *BUT* if people are willing to pay that much for a diaper in used quality, more power to the seller. If someone never posted at MDC or Diaperpin or She Knows or wherever but still CD'd and sold her stuff on Ebay how is that different from someone who happens to post here and doesn't sell her things on the TP?

I do not think Elbees are the end all be all. She makes a great diaper but there are so many out there who make great diapers!

And maybe we should try to remember... that these are just freaking diapers people. Diapers. There are a lot more important things in life. I refuse to waste my time or energy being upset over not being able to get another El Bee or even missing every single FCB stocking from here to eternity.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Apparently, Kate, if you're an MDCer then you have an obligation to offer your goods on the TP first.

I gotta say I prefer buying and selling on ebay than the TP. Buying because I have a fair shot at something (don't have to be stalking my computer waiting for something to pop up instock or on the TP, if it ever even does) and ebay will even send me an email if something on my "favorite searches" list comes up for sale so I don't have to search ebay daily, and if it goes higher than I'm willing to pay, I'm grown up enough to be able to shrug my shoulders and figure it just wasn't worth as much to me as it was to those who outbid me and call fair's fair. I prefer selling on ebay because I know I gave everyone an equal chance and I myself get the fair market price, which I always (like without a single exception) then turn around and redistribute to diapering WAHMs for more fluff.
Plus, when I'm listing items for sale, it's usually a mix of hyena and non hyena items--and it's so much less work and faster to just list all your fluff for sale on ebay and forget about it, and it almost always sells (and not for a pittance) with no more work on my part. The TP involves endless bumping, PMing, and if it ain't hyena, it just won't sell (my experience). Weeks later you can still be hoping to sell a silly fitted or soaker and it's just too much hassle! I need funds for new fluff now (my line of thinking at the time)! I have had such better luck on ebay all around, for hyena and non-hyena goods alike.

I know we all wish we could get our favorites in good used condition for a less-than-retail price and be happy, but please try to remember that the items we're talking about are LUXURY GOODS. No baby is going diaperless without them, they are luxury items. And thinking that these few "top-shelf" items going for quite a bit out there in the marketplace will scare mamas from cloth diapering at all is like saying that families on a budget will be intimidated from all the Mercedes and BMWs with their lofty price tags and won't drive at all. Give mamas some credit for being able to distinguish items they can afford and items that are obviously just luxury goods with a cult following on the secondary markets driving the price up. Do I wish I could get a Mercedes with a Honda price tag? Sure. But I'm not going to storm the sales office at the dealership and try to make them feel guilty for getting the price they can get for it, just because it's out of my budget.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Hm...honestly, I think I'm okay with the eBaying of items as well. I have chosen not to eBay stuff before because I was afraid of the MDC judgment factor







:. (My ebay username is the same as my MDC username).
When you know your item will go for way more on ebay, it's nice to still sell it on the tp, but it's awfully tempting to just put it up for auction. That way you don't have to bargain, trade for stuff, whatever. I love ebay. Sometimes you can get great deals too.

I think what the real issue is here is that some people (whether they're MDCers or not) are willing to pay scandalous (IMO) prices for diapers, and that kind of hurts those of us who aren't willing to do so. But Angelica's right about the luxury factor. Remember? Diapering haute couture here, ladies!


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## ustasmom (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, I may be in the minority here, but I think that eBaying the high demand hyena items undermines the WAHM.

Are we sending the message to WAHMs that we are stalking their stocked items in order to sell them on eBay? They could charge a whole lot more than they do, and obviously get it. But they don't.

I feel that earning more profit on eBay than the original WAHM earned when she designed and produced the item is just plain WRONG.









I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. Just stating my thoughts.

WAHMs are NOT stupid. They see what goes on. If it were me, I would be angry and upset. Why do that to the WAHMs that we love and respect???


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

We've discussed this before, although it hasn't been so personally directed. In the past, more than one WAHM has said that they benefit from auctions for used goods that go higher than retail. It's great advertising (and free), and it enhances their reputations. In this market now where CDing consumers have multiple choices, these intangibles (having people talk about your biz, thinking your diapers must be oh so awesome, etc) help your biz solidify for the long term. So I think that those who say that it's bad for the WAHM's are ignoring these intangible benefits.

On the other hand, some WAHM's have said that it makes them upset for all the same reasons that people have listed here. Clearly WAHM's are not of one mind on this topic, so I think it's reasonable that consumers would disagree as well.

I also tend to think that the high prices for used items mean that those hyena WAHM's should raise theirs, and I often feel baffled that they don't. I can't really get behind the theory that they keep their prices artificially low out of love and kindness-- even though many WAHM's are lovely and kind people). Historically women have undervalued their time and products, and I think many WAHM's are fearful that they might not sell all their dipes nor sell out as quickly. You gotta be bold to raise your prices, because you know it's going to be front page news here the next day.

I can't help thinking that if men made diapers, we'd all be paying in excess of $30 . . .

Karla


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## ShabbyChic (Feb 24, 2003)

I really can't believe this. I just can't. I cannot fathom that anyone makes judgements on how people sell their diapers, new or used and how much they pay, ebay or other means of purchasing. If someone needs or wants the funds and they feel a diaper will sell for more on Ebay than anywhere else, then they should sell it there. I may get flamed for this, but I am a full propenent for making as much money as you can. By selling diapers and in life. I applaud every person who got $80.00 for an Elbee on Ebay.I applaud people who make money and spend thousands on shoes and bags.

And if you all think that WAHMs are not charging enough, well then become a WAHM and charge more. Leave them alone. They will charge what they want. If they see their diaper go for $80.00 on Ebay, well then, they are big girls, they can make their own business decisions. And, if you all think that no one would pay $80.00 for a new Elbee from Laura, I think you are wrong. Her list might be smaller, but she could charge it.

And, in closing, becuse I am flaming mad now. If anyone thinks that it is simply not fair, because the diapers they want cost too much money and it should be "fairer", that is not the way of the world. Houses, cars, diapers and the list goes on. If you can't afford the high end, then too bad on you.


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## ShabbyChic (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
I know we all wish we could get our favorites in good used condition for a less-than-retail price and be happy, but please try to remember that the items we're talking about are LUXURY GOODS. No baby is going diaperless without them, they are luxury items. And thinking that these few "top-shelf" items going for quite a bit out there in the marketplace will scare mamas from cloth diapering at all is like saying that families on a budget will be intimidated from all the Mercedes and BMWs with their lofty price tags and won't drive at all. Give mamas some credit for being able to distinguish items they can afford and items that are obviously just luxury goods with a cult following on the secondary markets driving the price up. Do I wish I could get a Mercedes with a Honda price tag? Sure. But I'm not going to storm the sales office at the dealership and try to make them feel guilty for getting the price they can get for it, just because it's out of my budget.

Oh, and I almost forgot. RIGHT ON.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

1. Is the MDC TP the only place we are allowed in good conscience to sell highly sought after diapers that we own but for our own personal reasons, wish to sell?

2. Do we have to publish valid reasons, with proof, for wishing to sell them? e.g. picture of babe with diaper around body but obviously too tight or picture of diaper on tightest settings but still too big for babe and falling down.... Or perhaps financial statments proving how much $$ is actually needed, and also written proof of good deeds and charity work done that year?

3. A price guide on used items allowing what we are allowed to accept for our used items: If the diaper is used for one month, how much depreciation from resale value is mandated, etc? (Clearly getting full market value is unethical based on the feelings I see expressed here, as is auctioning an item if there is a chance it will go above retail)








:

ITA with Butterflymom and this thread is completely ridiculous.


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## Jecca (Feb 1, 2002)

I was going to completely stay out of this and I'm goign to stay out of the personal stuff cuase it's really besides the point.

The point to me is really that it's sad that the wahms can't get as much for their dipes as others are getting on ebay and if they are worth that on ebay then thats how much they should be getting for them.

As a Wahm from time to time not a diaper wahm it's sad i can sell things on ebay or my own site and make less money pay a friend commission and sell on her super marketed website and make what I'm really worht thus thats what I do becuase underselling yourself is what most of us do and we shouldn't!
I sure can't buy a diaper for $80.00 let alone $20.00 personaly but if there are people out there that can then the wahm should be selling them for there complete worht!
Seamstresses make allot more then i think most Wahms pay themselves by the hour!
juts my 2cents!


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Hm. I think 2much2luv is right. This thread is getting ridiculous. I see where averymybaby is coming from, but Angelica has a point too.
But it's too personal and we shouldn't be driving ourselves apart like this. It's going to ruin the board if we have more discussions of this nature. I know it's good to discuss the issues, but we have several totally different opinions in this area and people take things so personally that they might not post here anymore.
We have people who shop for high-demand, high-price diapers, people who look for the very unique, collector-type custom diapers, people who look for the best value, and LOTs of people who are doing this to save money. Some people care what their diapers cost, some don't. To me, if you're into very high priced or collector type diapers, then eBay might be your best idea. If you're not, then eBay isn't the place for you. I don't always think it's right to make money off of something, but sometimes just to get a fair price for a hyena diaper (or what you think is fair) you need to go to ebay. Then, it gets way up there sometimes.
Anyways, I think this has more to do with coveting others' diapers then anything else.
And I could care less about that.
Can we just can the discussion and patch up the hurt feelings here?


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## Nickarolaberry (Dec 24, 2001)

I have to say, as someone who has rarely if ever (I don't think) bought a "hyena" diaper, that for myself I'm not sure why people do spend so much on one diaper.

But if they want to, that's their right. Ebay is really the free market in its purest form that exists these days. People pay to sell what they have and hope someone will buy it. Sometimes things go high, sometimes they go low. If there's a lot of demand and little supply, they go high. And if they're willing to pay that price, then why not?!

Can I afford to pay those prices? Nah. But then again I buy all my diapers used, sell off what doesn't work or is too much work for me, and try to keep things simple because I don't have the tolerance for too many different "systems" or anything high maintenance.

I can't afford a lot of things that I would prefer to have. But I do sell things on ebay and hope someone else can afford to buy them at a premium.







I don't work outside the house right now, money is tight, and whether it's a diaper or a piece of Lennox china, a stroller, or something else I have but don't use, I would prefer to have the cash to pay a bill than the item in my house. I certainly hope I get the highest possible price for it. But if I don't, and I get the minimum bid, that's the chance I take. That's the chance any ebayer takes.

I think these forums, and especially MDC, are a wonderful place to communicate with "like minded" attachment parenting mamas. But the "orthodoxy" of what's "politically correct" here can lead to people feeling excommunicated, judged, or otherwise silenced if/when they don't toe the particular line of the moment. Whether it's diapers, or any other potentially controversial topic. It's unfortunate because it's so often we who feel sidelined by other, more "mainstream" communities - whether online or IRL.

Ebay is a great place to throw your lot in and see what happens, whether as buyer or seller. What can be bad about that? All of us have to make choices about what we buy, how much we're willing to spend on any one item, what we are willing to sell and how much we are willing to part with it for, etc. As in life, you hope the person you're dealing with is ethical, you depend on your own due diligence in researching an item and a seller to the best of your ability, and you conduct your own business in an ethical and moral manner. After that, let the price go where it may.

My own $.02 :LOL That's about all I have on hand right now anyway.


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## Lisadeanne (Sep 15, 2003)

I agree this thread is completely ridiculous. I am sure no one was trying to undermine wahms or stir up trouble in the diapering world by selling on ebay. These mamas can sell their diapers however they want. Who are we to judge???


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## grnmtnmama (Jun 14, 2004)

these ebay auctions increase the mystique and cachet of the wahm businesses involved. everytime one of these diapers sells for a huge amount of money, more and more people wonder what the buzz is all about driving more business to the wahm -- if it's even possible.

it's a free market, if now a whole bunch of people start listing their elbees hoping to make $70+ per dipe, there will be enough available that the prices will drop and become more reasonable.

if it's a diaper that you own you should be able to sell or trade it as you see fit.


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## LoveBaby (Jul 22, 2004)

Ok...I totally see both sides of the coin and while I won't be as eloquent as Butterflymom or jmunch here's my take on it!

Does it suck for those of us that can't or aren't willing to pay $80 for a dipe because that is what it goes for on ebay? Yes, of course it does. Is that the seller's fault? Absolutely not. Whether they put it on ebay to make the extra $$ or not.

If the WAHM's were that upset about it or truly hurt...then they could totally hike their prices and obviously some people would be more than willing to pay. That is *their* perogative...not our business! We all pay a lot for availability and convenience every day...diapering wouldn't be any different. If Laura had in-stock everyday but her diapers were $80 then people would pay it and others would knock her for hiking her prices.

It's all a matter of supply and demand! Aren't we by the very virtue of this conversation perpetuating the idea that el bee and FCB are the be all end all of diapering...probably spurring others to lust after them like most of us do?

I wrote out this whole thing and scratched it... Life isn't fair, diapering isn't fair and that's just the way it is...right, wrong or otherwise! Doesn't this come down to being po'd that you can't get what you want for the price *you* feel is fair?


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

I think people should be able to sell their property where they want, for whatever price they can get. Just like I think people should be able to pay whatever they want for something they're interested in- it's their money. I have tried selling some hyena stuff on the TP, only to get a PM box full of BEGGING - mamas saying that I really needed to sell to them because it was all that would fit their dc, they had been waiting for months to get that item, etc. It made me feel really bad to have to tell one person yes and all the rest no. Ebay is easier, gives everyone a fair shot, etc. And by fair shot I mean that hyena diapering items are not luxuries- ITA that nobody's baby is going to go diaperless because the price of ElBees is so high on Ebay. And I've also sold on ebay with the motivation to make more money than I would have on the TP- I bought a friend some stuff for her babies and needed the cash to pay for it. So I went through my stuff and sold it for as much as someone was willing to pay. And the Mercedes/Honda analogy was great, IMO :LOL


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## Oceanone (Oct 24, 2002)

I think high resale value is good for the wahm, even if it is completely out of their control once the item leaves their hands. I also believe they should mix some ebay auctions of their own in, reap some of the benefits and maybe even take some of the heat off the used auctions.


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## Rising Sun (Sep 15, 2003)

All I can say is, If I saw one of my diapers sell on ebay for $70, I would be VERY flattered!!!! It would be the motivation I need lately to sew more.

I think it drives up the market value of the diapers, so that wahms might actually make a profit with their business. After you consider everything that a wahm has to buy for her business, and the time spent, etc, she is barely making a profit if any. It takes on average, 3 years to make any profit at all, then it might be $100 a month, or a few hundred a month.

To see the market value of a product that is hand made with love, and worked on so hard, is great. Heck, the very idea of "hyena" and "hyena diapers" is great. A wahm can work and dream that one day she will be one of the much cherished wahms. I think we all dream of that and strive towards it.

Now, if a mama wants to cloth diaper to save money and doesn't have the fundage to spend on cloth to begin with, I would recommend that she start out with prefolds. As she saves tons of money using them and not buying disposables, she can start splurdging on a few fitteds here and there. Keep in mind that having a good resale value makes the diapers more obtainable. I purchased a used FCB for $12 and resold it after using it for a while for $10 or somewhere around there. So, I actually only paid $2 plus shipping for a diaper that I could use over and over again. That is still MUCH cheaper than buying disposables. So, if you pay $70 for a diaper, you will most likely get your moneys worth in the long run... if you look at the big picture.

Teri


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

I think my main problem with this is a few months ago this would have been looked down upon and all the sudden now its ok? There was a thread about NOT selling something above retail and if you did its just unethical, and I still feel that way and Im very very very sad that you all do not anymore, it means the ethics of the diapering world are changing. It saddens me greatly and I am NOT afraid to point fingers, I have always made sure I offer my items at an ethical and reasonable price even though I SURE COULD use the money.


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## Magnoliamama (Apr 20, 2004)

+


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## Joannect (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
There was a thread about NOT selling something above retail and if you did its just unethical

If I remember correctly that thread was about asking more than retail for a dipe on the TP, not on ebay. Ebay is a whole different game, the price is driven by the buyers, not the sellers. Even if the person listing the dipes on ebay was hoping to make a ton of money off of them, the only people who can guarantee that she does is the person bidding. If people weren't willing to pay $80 for a dipe then they wouldn't sell for $80.

I personally would never spend $80 on one dipe and it's not because I can't afford it. I just think it's way too much money for something that gets pooped in. :LOL Appearantly there are people out there who will. Good for them it's their money and they should be able to do with it as they damn well please.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
I still feel that way and Im very very very sad that you all do not anymore, it means the ethics of the diapering world are changing. It saddens me greatly and I am NOT afraid to point fingers, I have always made sure I offer my items at an ethical and reasonable price even though I SURE COULD use the money.

Maybe you don't mean to sound so completely melodramatic and over the top, but I'm quite sure from my memory of the thread several months ago that the "diapering world" has NEVER been of one singular mind about this. I think that reasonable people can disagree about this subject and nobody needs to insinuate that the ethics of the community have gone to h#ll in a handbasket. Respectful disagreement is what makes this place great, and I tend to think that "pointing fingers" at people who disagree with you is in very bad form.

Perhaps someone can now invoke a customer related service issue so this thread can get pulled.

Karla


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

If I remember correctly that thread was about asking more than retail for a dipe on the TP, not on ebay. Ebay is a whole different game, the price is driven by the buyers, not the sellers. Even if the person listing the dipes on ebay was hoping to make a ton of money off of them, the only people who can guarantee that she does is the person bidding. If people weren't willing to pay $80 for a dipe then they wouldn't sell for $80.
This is what I remember, too. And people have paid wayyyy more for stuff on ebay that I was selling than what I would have paid. For dipes and Hanna clothes :LOL


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

ok yes that is prosumptious to say that it includes everyone and we are all like-minded, I know that is not true, but it seems that there has been a shift on both ebay and the TP. And yes there was a thread about an ebay item being sold for more than retail and profiting and the majority seemed to agree they looked down upon it.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

I personally don't really care. I figure if I don't like it - I don't have to bid on it.

I may have my own feelings about whatever it happens to be...but I don't think that everyone needs to think or feel the same way. I don't really care what the majority thinks of something.

I never can quite understand why these things cause such a stir. I keep saying...it's not the first time and it won't be the last. We don't have to get involved in these things. I don't think it really affects us unless we choose to involve ourselves in the process. I do find it amusing when certain items take off and go for outrageous prices. But again...it doesn't necessarily impact my life.

There really are plenty of diapers out there. And what's hot today will not be tomorrow and so on. You can count on it.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I've seen some pretty strong arguments made on thi thread. I never did judge what others chose to do, but now I may just put some dipes on e-bay when I'm ready to sell (hyena and non).

It does seem kinda "big brother" to have some moral code stating where is ok to sell a diaper.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

And angelica that is not true for everyone, I happen to be in a very specific situation where only very specific items can be worn by my child. but I know I am in the bitter minority and maybe even the only one. But thats another story, there is always something that makes it harder than it should be, for me.


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## Izzybee (Feb 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clothcrazymom*
I personally don't really care. I figure if I don't like it - I don't have to bid on it.

I may have my own feelings about whatever it happens to be...but I don't think that everyone needs to think or feel the same way. I don't really care what the majority thinks of something.

I never can quite understand why these things cause such a stir. I keep saying...it's not the first time and it won't be the last. We don't have to get involved in these things. I don't think it really affects us unless we choose to involve ourselves in the process. I do find it amusing when certain items take off and go for outrageous prices. But again...it doesn't necessarily impact my life.

There really are plenty of diapers out there. And what's hot today will not be tomorrow and so on. You can count on it.









my feelings exactly


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## Knittin' in the Shade (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

I am a full propenent for making as much money as you can.
I agree 100% with you on this, Meg. It's ridiculous to think that a mama shouldn't sell her items wherevere she'll get the most money, and on ebay, honestly, it's the buyers who set the price.

However, it has seemed to me in the past that WAHMS who have a "capitalist" slant, or who get really big and successful, are looked down on by diapering mamas (fuzzibunz, anyone remember that?!) There's a "little guy" mentality that buyers like to see in their WAHMs, and it's my opinion that any wahm who would suddenly up her prices from say, $20 to $50, would be slammed up, down and around the diapering forums. She's be labelled a greedy, capitalist pig, for sure. So, I think the suggestion that a WAHM should just raise her prices when ebay auctions of her goods go high is a bit off base. There's a lot more that goes into the WAHM's position than just whether or not there are a few people willing to pay high prices for her goods. Let's face it, in the diapering world, reputation and perception is everything, and if a WAHM is percieved as greedy and just trying to make a buck, she won't be successful.


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## ryansmom02 (Jan 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Knittin' in the Shade*
I agree 100% with you on this, Meg. It's ridiculous to think that a mama shouldn't sell her items wherevere she'll get the most money, and on ebay, honestly, it's the buyers who set the price.

However, it has seemed to me in the past that WAHMS who have a "capitalist" slant, or who get really big and successful, are looked down on by diapering mamas (fuzzibunz, anyone remember that?!) There's a "little guy" mentality that buyers like to see in their WAHMs, and it's my opinion that any wahm who would suddenly up her prices from say, $20 to $50, would be slammed up, down and around the diapering forums. She's be labelled a greedy, capitalist pig, for sure. So, I think the suggestion that a WAHM should just raise her prices when ebay auctions of her goods go high is a bit off base. There's a lot more that goes into the WAHM's position than just whether or not there are a few people willing to pay high prices for her goods. Let's face it, in the diapering world, reputation and perception is everything, and if a WAHM is percieved as greedy and just trying to make a buck, she won't be successful.

what she said....


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

:

Okay, I have no opinion. I am a cd newbie reading with interest about the politics of the diapering world... I had no idea! But this quote has me nodding my head vigorously...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*

I can't help thinking that if men made diapers, we'd all be paying in excess of $30 . . .

Karla


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

I agree with certain parts of each side.

I did want to say that these diapers are hyena for a reason, they fit damn good and are super absorbant yet trim. The reason they are sought after is b/c they work so well, not b/c they are "hyena". Once people hear they are hyena, of course they want to try them, no not for the sake of obtaining a hyena item, but b/c they want to try this diaper everyone finds wonderful for their child. So, my point as to why this is relevant is b/c some children like SEEPAE mentioned can only fit into these diapers. My son is SO hard to fit. You dont even want to know. Ill pay whatever I think the diaper is worth since I WANT/NEED to CD, and no more than that. If people want to pay $80 for the diaper, fine. Who cares??? While this item may be luxury, I truly do NEED the luxury item and Ill find a way to get it whether it be purchasing new or used for whatever price I want to pay.

I also could just care less about people selling on ebay and I have to agree that Ive never done it before even when I needed the money for whatever reason b/c I was afraid of being reemed on. I just wanted to state the above b/c some points people were making were invalid. The diaper sells high for a reason. If you can find me a non-hyena WAHM who sells a diaper that has the same quality in sewing, in absorbancy, trimness and hold up tremendous, as FCB, PLEASE let me know as I could really use the diapers. But to my knowledge there is no one. Sorry if this is being mean to other WAHM's but its just true!


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

its not just that he can only fit into certain ones, he use to be easy to fit but now has a small rise and medium waist but the medium rise is HUMUNGOUS on him now, its that he has this stupid rash and I have to choose between certain cloth diapers and switching to sposies and NO WAY could we afford disposables as much as he has to be changed, and no way I could pay the "going rate" for the dipes we need, so its like Im sh*t-outa-luck.


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Exactly how my son is Seepae. My son is very short with a short rise but a normal medium sized waist. It surprises me that FCB fits him as well as they do b/c I never thought of them as a low rise diaper but they do. The way they are manufactured just fits him perfectly.

I also agree with bad rashes. Braedon has PUL issues but I really need an AIO for certain occasions and so far FCB and VB are the only 2 AIO's that do not give him rashes. So I have to go with what works.

Anyways, I guess my point is that unfortuntely for me, FCB is really one of the only diapers out there that fits my son correctly w/o giving him rashes or wicking. So the point that FCB isnt the only good diaper out there is null for me. Like Seepae said, we are probably the minority, but this is for sure true for my son up to date. Again, if anyone knows a WAHM who makes nearly an identical diaper, lemme know. Who wants to go through the trouble of stalking if they dont have to. But like I said before, I have yet to find anyone identical to FCB and thats WHY they are so hyena.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Let's face it, in the diapering world, reputation and perception is everything, and if a WAHM is percieved as greedy and just trying to make a buck, she won't be successful.








I keep trying to explain this to my dh, mr business major, because he says the WAHMs should just raise their prices to match what they go for on ebay.

Ok, sorry if I am being insensitive here, but how can your child only fit in one type of diaper? How did people diaper for thousands of years with flats and then prefolds if there are these babies that just don't fit in certain diapers? I don't buy the "he/she can only wear elbees so if I don't get a stash of those we are gonna have to switch to sposies" argument. Sure, some diapers fit alot better and look wonderful and stylish, but the real point of diapers is to catch the pee and poop, and you can do that with just about anything. Sorry, I'm just not getting it.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Spreding some sunshine on a gloomy thread. Have you gals tried Sugar Plum Baby? My son is what I consider hard to fit and these work wonderfully on him. Easy to get, super absorbant. I use mine overnight with a doubler and not a leak in sight. Plus the best, they are easy to get.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*
"he/she can only wear elbees so if I don't get a stash of those we are gonna have to switch to sposies" argument.

That the thing is is *NOT* about fit with him it is about his rash, and I pray that if moms thousands of years ago had a DC with a rash like my DS's they were able to find a cure fast because we have not. It is not only painful for him but painful for me to see him suffering and the only thing I can do is make him comfortable in whatever diapers work for him, and THAT is why it is only certain types.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goddess3_2005*







Spreding some sunshine on a gloomy thread. Have you gals tried Sugar Plum Baby? My son is what I consider hard to fit and these work wonderfully on him. Easy to get, super absorbant. I use mine overnight with a doubler and not a leak in sight. Plus the best, they are easy to get.
















These diapers hold up like nothing I have ever seen. Also, little-fishy diapers look a lot like FCB. I'm wondering if they fit the same. I've been wanting to try one, but the only knit print in-stock is a print I already have on a FCB. Woven outers usually make the diaper too small to fit Kylie







And most of the pretty RB's are woven outers. RB is another spectacular fitting dipe IME. Kylie is really hard to fit and RB's are amazing









Sugarbums are another well made diaper that hold up really well. I had one that was pretty old when I got it, then I used it everyday for months and it still looked nearly new (minus some print fading). Kylie outgrew it and now another baby is wearing it.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Also from what I have been told, She should have Organic Velour soon to


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

DS cant wear fitteds that are serged


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Ok....Lemme do some explaining.

I think most of the issue for me is rashes moreso than fit. If my son never got a rash, than I think I could manage with a diaper that didnt fit as well as my fav diaper. I dont feel I should have to explain myself but I will.

I can use prefolds, but my son ONLY fits into Infant Size (yes, still at 16 months) and those are NOT absorbant enough to hold one of my sons pees (he doesnt pee often but pees a river when he does), also he tends to get rashes along his legs and penis area as prefolds are not soft enough.

My son has a SHORT rise yet a medium sized waist and thighs. I could name specific diapers, non-hyena and hyena that dont work for him that Ive tried hoping they would but Id be afraid Im hurting someones feelings. The problem with this situation is Size Medium diapers are too high in the rise and cause the diaper to go over the belly button which doesnt allow him to sit OR causes the bottom of the diaper to droop causing the legs to gape and not secure around his thighs which allows for major leakage. In Size Small diapers, the rise is perfect but it barely fits aroung his waist and thighs without giving rashes, etc.

Ok, so now Ive narrowed down the fit but what about his rash problems. He needs a diaper that makes sure he feels dry to touch or he gets major rashes. Microfleece is the best but 90% of the diapers I tried w/microfleece tend to pill after one wash causing them to not be so soft anymore and again causing rashes. You should have seen last weeks rash on his penis. It was red raw and swollen to the max.

So, what I found is FCB provides a high enough rise to provide room to grow yet fits him accordingly now so that there is NO drooping or sitting issues. The inside of the diaper has a micro that DOES NOT pill barely at all, remains soft on his skin, as well as keeping him dry. The fit works perfect and he doesnt get rashes. If you know of a diaper that works this way, AGAIN, lemme know, as you dont know how hard its been to begin looking for a uniform stash of FCB, phew, and Id love a second alternative.

Phew, now we are WAY O/T but you asked!


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## ShabbyChic (Feb 24, 2003)

It is too tedious to go back 4 pages to quote, but I am responding to the comment that the inflated prices of so called hyena diapers eliminate part of the diapering population from be able to use "good quality" diapers.

I'm here to tell you Mamas and I won't name specifics, but not all "hyena" diapers are well made. On more than one occasion I have seen a hyena diaper fall apart, while it's much less expensive counterpart that came from instock that is always available, is like a work horse and beautiful to boot.

It is all too common around here to create a hyena diaper. Oh, you know, we have seen it happen time and time again. All the talk, all the hype, all the stalking, and then, well you know the stories.

So really, don't hold true to a concept that is fiction. You can buy good quality diapers at all prices.

And in addition, if your baby has certain issues, be it fit or rashes, there are wonderful WAHMs out there that will sew exactly to your specifications. So really, don't tell me its FCB or disposables.


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## ustasmom (Jan 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
DS cant wear fitteds that are serged









So are windpro AIOs not serged?


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ustasmom*
So are windpro AIOs not serged?

yes here is where it is tricky, AIOs can be serged, fitteds can not. When he pees in the fitted the moisture automatically makes it to the serged edges which is where his rash is located in some areas, in turn the rash gets iritated by moisture causing it to swell, which causes it to flake and the serging rubs up against the raised flaking areas and causes "rub burns" and causes the skin to flake off. With AIOs the moisture never makes it to the edges which means the rash doesnt get iritated and the chain reaction doesnt happen, which is why it is OK to use them for AIOs only. All of this takes place in a matter of seconds. do you all need pictures to understand?


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm not sure what the fit of FCB is like, but have you tried Motherease One size? They are bound, not serged. I know there are a few brands of organic cotton that are very similar to the MEOS too, if you prefer organics.


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## penny31 (Jul 21, 2003)

This has already been covered but my opinion is that if you want the Hyena stuff, then bid enough to buy it and if you don't want to spend that much money, then buy something else. There are tons of WAHMs making tons of great diapers out there and I think with a little searching you can find a diaper that works well for you and isn't impossible to get. OR if you must have some diapers exactly like XXX brand, and you can't get them, then take one apart, make a pattern from it and make yourself some (or pay a seamstress to do it for you, you can get most diapering fabrics at places like http://diapershop.com/store.htm and you can send your diapers off to someone listed here http://diapershop.com/snapservice.htm for snaps to be put on them). I mean for your child's personal use, of course, not to sell.

I also don't have a problem with someone buying a dipe just to resell for more money. Do you feel the same way about all the people selling Gymboree on e-bay for more than they paid for it? To me it is win/win - I get what I want, they get some $$$ for providing it to me and Gymboree got what they asked for it in the first place. I don't feel sorry for the WAHM, I mean she could sell her own dipes on e-bay under an alias if she wanted to preserve her reputation as having reasonably priced dipes and we would never know. Dipes aren't hyena fodder for long, so she better get the $$$ while the getting is good, you know? I admire an entreprenurial spirit and anyway I love when hyena dipes get listed on e-bay because then I have a shot at getting them (I mean I don't spend that much anymore on dipes but there was a time when I did). I just don't have the time to stalk, so e-bay evens out the field for me a little!

XOXO


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmunch*
So really, don't tell me it's FCB or disposables.

I totally agree, Meg. I am not buying that argument for a minute, either.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*
I'm not sure what the fit of FCB is like, but have you tried Motherease One size? They are bound, not serged. I know there are a few brands of organic cotton that are very similar to the MEOS too, if you prefer organics.

I have tried a few 'commecial' bound diapers which none seemed to fit him at all, but that doesnt matter now because we have been making the switch to all AIOs as to eliminate all contact with moisture on his skin as we can.


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## ustasmom (Jan 12, 2004)

Don't get fresh with me, Seepae. You aren't all that much older than my daughter. :LOL

Anyway, Ben has this issue with the chafing thighs as well. I'm just trying to put this into perspective. Why does the serging not get wet on the FCB AIO? Does the windpro push the wetness back into the hemp/sherpa, therefore staying dry?


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

and its not "fcb or disposables" its whatever diaper I can manage to find to ease his discomfort or we will have to switch to disposables, which we cant afford. FCB is NOT the only AIO he can wear and it is not the only AIO we have, I am still in the market to try new AIOs when I find them, thats why I tried a VB but sadly it did not work at all for DS


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Valor Kids can make AIOs exactly to your spec's--I should know, I just dreamed up an AIO style in my little head that from what I know, doesn't exist out there, she made it, and I'm one thrilled CDing mama. I KNOW there are other WAHMs out there who are talented sewers and can tailor to whatever you need done.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

I posted recently saying that the only thing my dd could wear overnight were her FCB Nightlights- the hemp SOS which worked so well for months give her a really bad rash on her belly now at night. BUT I know that it's not likely that I'll be able to get anymore NL's, unless I get lucky and am sitting here when they stock and happen to check. The mamas here gave me great advice on a few other brands to check out- I won't stop cd'ing her at night just because the one dipe that I've found to work is not readily attainable. We'll find something else, or I'll beg one of the diaper making wahms to make something that will work. I really don't think it's reasonable to say that only one diaper will work- what would you do if for some reason you absolutely could not get those dipes anymore?


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

it doesnt get wet because its not an absorbent material that spreads out the moisture, the small area between the elastic and serged edge is 1 layer windpro 1 layer hemp and 1 layer micrfleece so it is a completely procted area from the moisture... maybe if he wore it for a few hours with a lot of pees it would get wet, but i change him hourly if not more often


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
Valor Kids can make AIOs exactly to your spec's--I should know, I just dreamed up an AIO style in my little head that from what I know, doesn't exist out there, she made it, and I'm one thrilled CDing mama. I KNOW there are other WAHMs out there who are talented sewers and can tailor to whatever you need done.

yes there are! and I happen to be looking around and talking to a few WAHMs seeing if they will help me, I havent contacted Kathleen yet but have been wanting after seeing a fllece AIO on orangestarfish.com that she made.


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## lori810 (Feb 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*







:

ITA with Butterflymom and this thread is completely ridiculous.









Ditto. I think it would benefit some individuals to take a step back, breathe the fresh air, enjoy their children and families, unhook from the computer and look at the things they are spending their time judging. If this is so highly troublesome to you, I think some perspective is in order.


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

Honestly, IMO it's about the people bidding. Unless the seller puts a high minimum bid they have no control over how high the diaper goes. I saw those El Bees on ebay when there were still no bids, I was bummed that there was no BIN as I knew that would have been my only chance. The starting bid was only 99 cents though.


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Wow! Im really surprised by this thread. Now Im being judged b/c I have a son who is in massive amt of pain unless he is wearing a few certain types of diapers. That really saddens me. Do you need to bring all your stashes to my home to sample him to believe that my son DOES have sensitive skin and a body VERY hard to fit.

Also, I dunno if the disposables or FCB was directed at me, but I NEVER said anything about disposables, in fact, disposables probably would make the situation worse. All Im going for is complete comfort for my son, forgive me. Sheesh!


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## lori810 (Feb 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsayloo2020*
Wow! Im really surprised by this thread. Now Im being judged b/c I have a son who is in massive amt of pain unless he is wearing a few certain types of diapers. That really saddens me. Do you need to bring all your stashes to my home to sample him to believe that my son DOES have sensitive skin and a body VERY hard to fit.

Also, I dunno if the disposables or FCB was directed at me, but I NEVER said anything about disposables, in fact, disposables probably would make the situation worse. All Im going for is complete comfort for my son, forgive me. Sheesh!

I wouldn't say you are being judged because your child gets a rash. But if you expect the world to come to a halt and provide you with a lovely stash of brand new FCB at a cheap price, ain't gonna happen. If the price is driven up by demand, I guess you'd better save up and get in line if you MUST have them. But as others have said before me, I don't buy it. Make your own, use organic prefolds and change every 10 min, have a seamstress make some custom-made for you, etc. Of course there are other options. FCB hasn't been around THAT long, imagine what people did before!

And FTR, my child had an absolutely awful rash for about 5-6 months. I know the agony. We saw about 6 docs, changed our diets dramatically, and dealt with trying a million kinds of diapers. I know how tough it is. But that doesn't mean that if XYZ diaper is the only one that worked, I'd expect others' selling practices to be dictated by my situation.


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## lori810 (Feb 3, 2004)

Julia- I think you initiated an interesting discussion and it is quite unfortunate that it took on such a personal twist. It's not your fault, but it's where the thread has gone.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I think it's fine to sell dipes on ebay -- as has been said many times, no one (and this is not directed to anyone in particular) is *entitled* to a stash of their favorite dipes at any price.

Also wanted to add that www.lucyshopechest.com makes a very nice serged AIO, she does have windpro, and there's no waiting list.


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lori810*
Julia- I think you initiated an interesting discussion and it is quite unfortunate that it took on such a personal twist. It's not your fault, but it's where the thread has gone.


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lori810*
And FTR, my child had an absolutely awful rash for about 5-6 months. I know the agony. We saw about 6 docs, changed our diets dramatically, and dealt with trying a million kinds of diapers. I know how tough it is. But that doesn't mean that if XYZ diaper is the only one that worked, I'd expect others' selling practices to be dictated by my situation.

what was it? any advice? DS has had his rash for almost 6 months, look at my rash thread, is that it?????


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## HeatherTremblay (Jun 7, 2003)

This thread has been an interesting read for me, although I must confess the information is not something that hasn't already passed through my mind - all the various viewpoints, and been discussed by wahms amongst themselves ad infinitum, as well as from the consumer point of view. Thanks, Julia, for opening up a thoughtful discussion, wherever it may have lead us all!

Here's my 2c, or 2.00, depending upon how lengthy my post gets, here.

From the wahm standpoint (or, should I say, from *a* wahm's standpoint, since I neither speak for other wahms, nor would I ever presume to do so).

1. If I make a diaper or knit item, or a left-handed thingamabob, and someone buys it from me and re-sells it immediately on eBay at twice the price or more:

(a) I would immediately have a passing emotional reaction that 'hey, that wasn't fair', which is really just evidence that I have felt I missed an opportunity to improve my own financial situation, from the work I did myself; I have to remember that it's a business I run in a capitalist market, not a personal service in a commune.

(b) I would then consider raising my own prices, or selling a few unique items myself on eBay to see if I can get the same fortunate response; what will the market bear?

(c) I would endeavor to remember that, for me, it's none of my d*** business what people do with my diapers, etc. once they purchase them. Ditto for if I give away a freebie item, a diaper fairy item, etc. Whatever my immediate emotional response may be (and since I am human, it is unavoidable), it boils down to the fact that someone else has taken the chance to make a profit for themselves for whatever reason, and that's what I do every day (or try to) while running my own business. It's not an ethical crime for me to want to profit from my work to care for my family, that's a certainty in my mind.

Although some may feel there are ethical violations involved in selling diapers for more than they purchased them originally, everyone determines their own personal ethics, and I do not determine others' ethics, nor do I feel that they are in any way violating me, since it's a waste of my time, and I have precious little to waste as it is, as busy as I am. I don't know (and it's none of my business) how much help you give to the needy, if you are the needy, or if you have lots of 'hyena' diapers, or just wraps and prefolds and need money to re-roof your house after a hurricane hits, or if you just like to buy low and sell high to save for your vacation next year... in other words, more power to you, whoever you may be!

I run a business, and not a communal service of any kind, and there are always knocks to be taken when I don't present myself in the best light possible publicly, but this does NOT mean that I cannot raise (or lower) a price for an item depending upon supply and demand, costs of materials and time, etc., etc.

I may run the risk of having publicly posted threads in the vein of 'Wow, can you believe how much so-and-so charged for that?!', with possible responses of 'Good for her!' or 'What is the cloth diapering wahm community coming to?!'.

Regardless of this, either way, I have a demand level and a supply level that varies from year to year, season to season, and item to item. I wouldn't be a very savvy businesswoman if I didn't recognize that it's not about personal feelings, with the exception of the emotional gratification customers get from receiving an item they like and can use -- but _*my*_ emotions must remain in check, if I am to have a successful business.

Besides, any thread that goes into that great a discussion about a particular wahm is just good free advertising, IMO. I know a number of wahms who feel it is sometimes worth raising prices, considering what the market will bear (and who doesn't want to get paid what their time is really worth; and women _do_ need to demand their worth, and not just from men).

Okay, enough out of me.


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## Just*Lindsay (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lori810*
I wouldn't say you are being judged because your child gets a rash. But if you expect the world to come to a halt and provide you with a lovely stash of brand new FCB at a cheap price, ain't gonna happen. If the price is driven up by demand, I guess you'd better save up and get in line if you MUST have them. But as others have said before me, I don't buy it. Make your own, use organic prefolds and change every 10 min, have a seamstress make some custom-made for you, etc. Of course there are other options. FCB hasn't been around THAT long, imagine what people did before!

And FTR, my child had an absolutely awful rash for about 5-6 months. I know the agony. We saw about 6 docs, changed our diets dramatically, and dealt with trying a million kinds of diapers. I know how tough it is. But that doesn't mean that if XYZ diaper is the only one that worked, I'd expect others' selling practices to be dictated by my situation.


WHOAAAA! I think you are totally mistaken me. Please read my initial thread. I SAID...I will pay whatever price I CAN to get the diapers that fit my son correctly and that I found nothing wrong with ebay and high prices of diapers on ebay for resale. Im sorry Momma, but I never ever said people shouldnt sell things on ebay b/c theyll sell for more than the WAHM makes them for. If I have to pay 50 bucks to get my son nearly the only AIO that works for him, so be it! Here is part of my initial thread:

If people want to pay $80 for the diaper, fine. Who cares??? While this item may be luxury, I truly do NEED the luxury item and Ill find a way to get it whether it be purchasing new or used for whatever price I want to pay.

I also could just care less about people selling on ebay and I have to agree that Ive never done it before even when I needed the money for whatever reason b/c I was afraid of being reemed on.


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## lori810 (Feb 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsayloo2020*
WHOAAAA! I think you are totally mistaken me. Please read my initial thread. I SAID...I will pay whatever price I CAN to get the diapers that fit my son correctly and that I found nothing wrong with ebay and high prices of diapers on ebay for resale. Im sorry Momma, but I never ever said people shouldnt sell things on ebay b/c theyll sell for more than the WAHM makes them for. If I have to pay 50 bucks to get my son nearly the only AIO that works for him, so be it! Here is part of my initial thread:

If people want to pay $80 for the diaper, fine. Who cares??? While this item may be luxury, I truly do NEED the luxury item and Ill find a way to get it whether it be purchasing new or used for whatever price I want to pay.

I also could just care less about people selling on ebay and I have to agree that Ive never done it before even when I needed the money for whatever reason b/c I was afraid of being reemed on.

Oh, OK, my mistake. So why did you think you were being judged? Because you paid a lot? I agree then, people shouldn't judge if someone wants to spend a boatload on a diaper, it's their choice. Sorry I misunderstood!


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## Pamela Anderson (Sep 25, 2003)

Holy Tattoos! I guess the holidays and goodwill are over!?!

I think I'm one of the biggest lurkers here at MDC, and I have to say... this thread had more ups and downs than me and Tommy Lee.

Let's all try to remember, we're a community. We're a haven away from the harsh back biting and paparazzi of the outside world. Please, let's make peace with one another. Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

I wish you all peace.


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## mom2kbeth (Aug 18, 2003)

Roflmao!!!


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pamela Anderson*
Holy Tattoos! I guess the holidays and goodwill are over!?!

I think I'm one of the biggest lurkers here at MDC, and I have to say... this thread had more ups and downs than me and Tommy Lee.

Let's all try to remember, we're a community. We're a haven away from the harsh back biting and paparazzi of the outside world. Please, let's make peace with one another. Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

I wish you all peace.
















: Pamela, it's about time you made another appearance!









I wanted to say







to the WAHMs who took the time to chime in here, too. It's really helped me see the varied perspectives!


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

You can always count on Claire to bring a smile to your face.


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

Hey! My boobs are droopy and real! When I nak, Cicely is sitting on the floor.

So... no Pam Anderson here!


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spark*
Hey! My boobs are droopy and real! When I nak, Cicely is sitting on the floor.

So... no Pam Anderson here!

















:





















now *that's* an image. :LOL


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## Pamela Anderson (Sep 25, 2003)

:LOL You gals! ok... I'll show you mine if you show me yours!!!

MINE


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Yeah! Mamas are smiling! Oh......the thread was scarying me at first!

My two cents........................each mama has to do what is right for her and her family. I don't own hyena items really, but I did purchase/trade for certain dipes due to their reputation and resell value. If I were a seller of dipes and people were bidding high on them, I would be honored. And yes I would probably raise my prices.

I do think it is kind of a silly thing for us to all be debating with such passion. This kind of energy and passion may be better used over in the Activism Forum.


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## Piffle (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spark*
Hey! My boobs are droopy and real! When I nak, Cicely is sitting on the floor.

So... no Pam Anderson here!

















:


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Well, Claire, you are mentioned in Pam's public profile, so you are claiming NO connection?









When talking about pricing and ethics we need to distinguish between necessity items and luxury items. Necessity items are needed for sustaining life (and health = primary needs) while luxury items are wanted to fulfill other needs after an individuals basic needs are met. There can never be anything unethical about selling a luxury item at market prices. (Ethics come into play only when pricing necessity items, and then too only in rare 'special cases'.) There can never be anything unethical about selling a gourmet meal for $60 if there is a fast food place and grocery store next doors. Sure many of us might want to have same champagne and caviar occasionally, but it is not necessary to our survival or health. There can never be anything unethical to sell a Mercedes for $70,000 because a car is not a necessity item and even if it would be there are viable options at the Honda dealership for less than $20,000 (not to talk about the second hand market).

A hand made cloth diaper with a strong brand and a market value of over $70 is a luxury item. Nobody's life or health is dependent on it. There is a plethora of more affordable options on the market. There can never be anything unethical about selling a hand made cloth diaper on a free market for any price; whether the price a voluntary buyer is paying for it is $70 or $700 or $7000. Period.

Ethics and market pricing can only come into conflict when someone's life and health is in danger. It is unethical of me not to give a glass of water from my well in the middle of a dessert to a man dying of thirst even if he would not have the 50 cents that might be the correct market price for it. As a human being it is unethical for me to watch him die.
When it comes to pricing, ethics apply directly only to necessity items, which cloth diaper are not, no matter how much you would prefer one brand over another.

So, "Is it ethical to sell diapers for more than the primary producer asks for a new one?"
Of course it is. Either the producer sells it under fair market value (= what people would be buying them for and thus performs an act of charity) or the reseller has contributed to marketing and made it available to customers who were not connected to the primary producers first hand market and has thus added value to the whole process. No losers, only winners. If the seller wouldn't have put the item on sale in the first place, nobody would have gotten it. Since she did the buyer who voluntarily paid $70 obviously thought she was better off doing this, the seller is better of since she voluntarily put it for sale AND the primary producer is better off thanks to, among other things, proved secondary market for her products à increases primary demand à a given benchmark for adjusting the primary market prices (which she could decide not to do and this could yet benefit her in another form discussed later).

If somebody claims that the secondary seller who has bought for $20 and now sells for $70 should sell for less than the market value (= voluntary bids) she claims in fact in economic terms that the seller is obliged to do an act of charity equal to the difference of the fair market value and the lower price, in this case $50. Now, this somebody needs to make her case. Why is the seller obliged to this act of charity? Because there is scarcity in this world? Because not everybody gets all luxury items they want? This line of thought boils down to a communist ideology where everybody is obliged to do give what they have or can produce according to ability and everybody is entitled to the same material goods (and eventually essentially nobody gets anything).

To make her case, this somebody would need to show that a specific person is in life or health threatening danger and that this charity of $50 would save her AND that out of the 6.7 billion people on this planet the seller is among those who are morally obliged to save her (since she has the means and the object of charity is in such close proximity to her that the moral obligations falls on her based on community or family ties rather than on some closer family or community member to the person in need.)

It should be clear that no such moral obligation to charity can be proven in this case.

To me it is obvious that people making arguments based on 'morals' in this case subconsciously think that if the seller would be willing to sell for less than $70, lets say $35, they themselves would snatch the luxury item at hand. They forget that at this price there would be more willing buyers than at the price of $70 where we in our example had only one buyer, the highest bidder. Who gets too decide which one of these, lets say 15 persons, who would be willing to pay $35 gets the item? Some sort of lottery? The losers would be the person who wanted the diaper for $70, if the buyer who was only willing to pay $40 gets it for $35, as well as the seller who got $35 for the diaper who had a buyer at $70. We would have a $5 winner, $35 looser and the person who wanted the item most (in dollar terms) didn't even get it.

The free market is, has always been and will always bee the most efficient and just distribution system for luxury items, such as hand made cloth diapers.

It is however noteworthy that the sellers, both the primary producer and the secondhand seller, have the opportunity to sell their diapers a below market values, thus performing acts of charity. Acts of charity can substantially raise an individuals standing in a community. We could have a situation where the second hand market price for a product could be $70 even in the longer term (if supply in the second hand market would not catch up to demand) while the primary market price would be $20. In a while it would be generally known that the primary producer constantly performs an act of charity equal to giving away $50 when she sells an item (assuming that items are constantly selling at $70 in the secondary market) and she could benefit through a higher social standing in her community. It of course depends largely how she chooses to allocate these free $50 pieces of cloth (= who gets to buy in the primary market when she is flooded with orders since 'everybody knows' the diapers are worth $70 on eBay).

It seems to me that there are some primary producers in the cloth diaper market selling their products at below market values, thus performing acts of charity and benefiting in social standing (aka reputation). This does not however lead to a moral obligation to anybody else to sell below market prices.

From a potential buyers viewpoint (who is willing to pay only $35 for a diaper) it might be a viable strategy to try to induce guilt in those operating in a voluntary free market by claiming that there is something unethical in their actions. If an obligation to charity can't be proved these claims are unfounded. Since handmade cloth diapers are clearly luxury items I do not believe this can be done.

But Angelbee is right--I think I've spent too much energy on this topic.







:


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

Here I am practicing attachment parenting with the Himba people.
A Picture from National Geographic

Seriously, isn't this a great picture! I love that she's working so hard, being close to her baby and not self conscious about the breasts that have nourished her children. And, they're known for their peace-making abilities while acknowledging that conflict is a natural part of being human. Pretty cool, huh?


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## Boobiemama (Oct 2, 2002)

Seems to me you guys are putting WAY too much thought into something petty.....


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## LoveBaby (Jul 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spark*
Hey! My boobs are droopy and real! When I nak, Cicely is sitting on the floor.

So... no Pam Anderson here!









So glad to hear I'm not the only one...except in my case one side he sits on the floor, the other in my lap 'cuz after nursing 3 babes they are Soooo lop-sided!!! :LOL







:


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boobiemama*
Seems to me you guys are putting WAY too much thought into something petty.....

















I agree--but hey, one of my fave MDC mamas asked for a discourse, so I'm trying to comply!


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

The primary seller is free to sell to/distribute her goods however she wishes. Her choices dictate who the pool of primary buyers consists of. For example, fluffymail occasionally chooses to open up their stocking to everyone via ebay auctions, but usually stocks their regular store or offers custom slots as an instock available items so that it's "first come/first serve". Laura of el bee has thusfar only offered her diapers for sale via a custom order waiting list that was open to anyone for many months (maybe more than a year? not sure), save a few select offerings to her yahoo group and very few diapers via ebay.
To the secondary buyer who wishes they were a primary buyer, that's sad and all, but not unfair that the WAHM hasn't made a primary purchase available to that individual. The other primary buyers are not the ones who control who gets to be primary buyers, that is dictated by the primary seller's choices in how she wants to distribute her goods. The intentions of any primary buyers are irrelevant and do not play a role in who else gets to be primary buyers.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

I disagree, and stand firm that it is the choices of the primary sellers that dictates who gets to be a primary buyer.

If they choose to sell the items in a situation which would give those with the fastest internet connection a huge advantage, and they see their items being immediatly resold on the secondary market at higher prices, then it is up to the primary seller to reconsider if this is okay with them. They can raise prices, sell via auction to truly give everyone a shot, do a lottery drawing to see who gets to buy, or anything else they wish.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

But it is the choice of distribution that the WAHM makes that makes it _possible_ in the first place for these would-be 'scalpers'(







: ) to follow through with their intentions. She can easily make different choices that would eliminate that from ever happening. The secondary market is visible to everyone, and the WAHM can choose how to offer her goods in the future based on what happens there. In your example she chooses to let those with the faster internet connection get the goods, and if that system proves to have flaws (e.g. 'scalpers' behaving as re-distributors that are perhaps unwanted by the primary seller as well as secondary buyer in your example), the primary seller can choose to sell her goods another way to prevent it from happening. WAHMs have the freedom to make those kinds of decisions in order to maximize benefit from their time/labor, and however they choose to distribute their goods is their prerogative and is not 'unfair' to those who did not manage to become a primary buyer based on those decisions.
Clear as mud? :LOL


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## ustasmom (Jan 12, 2004)

Could you imagine how the fur would fly around here if a WAHM refused to sell an item to somone? I know that most of them have that as policy, but still.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannect*
If I remember correctly that thread was about asking more than retail for a dipe on the TP, not on ebay. Ebay is a whole different game, the price is driven by the buyers, not the sellers. Even if the person listing the dipes on ebay was hoping to make a ton of money off of them, the only people who can guarantee that she does is the person bidding. If people weren't willing to pay $80 for a dipe then they wouldn't sell for $80.

I personally would never spend $80 on one dipe and it's not because I can't afford it. I just think it's way too much money for something that gets pooped in. :LOL Appearantly there are people out there who will. Good for them it's their money and they should be able to do with it as they damn well please.









Yup, I started that thread and that was what it was about, thanks!







I was referring more to people buying something JUST to resell for a profit.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

You know, I always wondered why on earth people didn't ask more than $25 or so for El Bees or other hyena dipes on the tp, and the reason is now painfully clear.


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

OK Holli and Angelica, I'm trying to follow, but I'm a little







:LOL


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

I was going to stay out, but I just can't....

Angelica states:
"There can never be anything unethical about selling a luxury item at market prices. (Ethics come into play only when pricing necessity items, and then too only in rare 'special cases'.)"

"There can never be anything unethical about selling a hand made cloth diaper on a free market for any price; whether the price a voluntary buyer is paying for it is $70 or $700 or $7000. Period"

"This line of thought boils down to a communist ideology where everybody is obliged to do give what they have or can produce according to ability and everybody is entitled to the same material goods (and eventually essentially nobody gets anything)."

"it is the choices of the primary sellers that dictates who gets to be a primary buyer.

If they choose to sell the items in a situation which would give those with the fastest internet connection a huge advantage, and they see their items being immediatly resold on the secondary market at higher prices, then it is up to the primary seller to reconsider if this is okay with them. "

Ok, this is one ethical standpoint, but, while persuasively stated, it is not the only one. In order to accept that there can never be anything unethical about sellling luxury items at market prices, one must also assume that the existence of said luxury items in no way impacts the existence/quality/availability of necessity items. If drug companies are busy producing viagra because there is a great luxury market for it, they are not investing in the production of drugs for aids or diabetes or cancer etc. So the line between luxury items and necessity items is not as clear cut as Angelica's perspective suggests.

Second, saying that something is the eqivalent of a communist/socialist ideology is not in and of itself an argument against it. One must explain why such an ideology is undesireable.

Third, what is the meaning of "fair market value?" What makes "market" value better than "use" value, or the value of labor and materials? We are often told it is because the market is not biased. It is the "invisible hand," and hence not subjective in the way that other determinations of value might be. But, the market does not exist in a vacuum. Markets exist in real worlds with real inequalities and injustices, and inevitably reflects those injustices. There is nothing sacred about the market. It is only as fair and just and valuable as we make it. A "market" requires an infrastructure of buyers and sellers (ours happens to be characterized by extremes of wealth and poverty), it requires rules of the game to govern its operation, and it requires a way to generate demand for items (such as a discussion forum where hype can create artificial demand). All of these things are subjective and biased. Ebay, for example, has rules against bidding up one'e own item. According to Angelica's ethics, this rule is unnecessary. As long as the buyer "voluntarily" (and we could also debate the meaning of voluntary) puts in her bid, why should it matter if the seller is jacking up the price by bidding on her own item?

Finally, perhaps it is worth thinking about why it is that acts of charity can raise someone's standing in a community. Presumably we honor such acts because we see value in placing the preservation of communal ties (and the mitigation of poverty, inequality,and injustice that strong community requires) above mere self-interest. It makes perfect sense for a community or nation to cultivate such a communal attitude by developing an ethical perspective that discourages avarice and greed.

Ethics are typically pretty context dependent and require a bit of thought. It may not always be the case that selling an elbee on ebay is indicative of avarice or greed. Perhaps the seller is in a difficult financial situation and needs to make some money. In that case perhaps they would choose to do something (sell on ebay) that they would not normally do. We might alter our ethical stance if we take these mitigating circumstances into account. But, that does not mean that under normal circumstances the seller would choose ebay. Claiming that you are selling on ebay due to unusual circumstances just underlines the fact that under normal circumstances you would probably not make that choice. We all know that you can recoup your entire investment for an elbee on the TP, so choosing to sell on ebay is a choice to get as much as possible. I would define that as greed and see no reason why a community shouldn't discourage such an attitude under normal circumstances.

Angelica, I do appreciate your very thoughtful comments. I think this is exactly what the op had in mind. I do not think this thread is ridiculous (or at least it is no more ridiculous than debating the merits of velour v sherpa). I clearly disagree with your perspective, but I wish we could have more such discussions. I have truly enjoyed reading the entire thread. Now, I need to pick my middle aged boobs up off the floor and get the babes to bed!


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
. We all know that you can recoup your entire investment for an elbee on the TP, so choosing to sell on ebay is a choice to get as much as possible. I would define that as greed and see no reason why a community shouldn't discourage such an attitude under normal circumstances.

Okay I thought I was done with this thread but then I read that statement and once again I am all fired up









What I don't understand is how can you call that greed when you do not know what is even being done with the money? What if a person is going to give the money to charity and here you are assuming they are greedy.I think to judge a situation you know nothing about is wrong.

Okay my auction is not even above retail but let's pretend it is.Last month I went a little overboard in my holiday charity and spent more then I had to spend on other families.Now I am trying to sell some things to make up for the money I overspent so that I can take care of myself and my son.But under you rational of if you list an el bee on ebay you are greeding way of thinking then puts me in the box of greedy.I know I am far from greedy.Irresposible with money , yes , but not greedy.Now of course I really don't care if you think I am a greedy person but I am trying to show how your judgements of people by one action is way off.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
choosing to sell on ebay is a choice to get as much as possible. I would define that as greed and see no reason why a community shouldn't discourage such an attitude under normal circumstances.

How can anyone criticize someone for getting the top dollar for their property?? How can that be considered greedy?? If you knew that there were people willing to pay you $200k for your house, should you be expected to sell it for $100k? Should you be expected to sell your car for $1k when you know there are people willing to give you $2k for it? If so, WHY? If not, how are diapers different? I totally agree with Butterflymom: if someone sells something for less than they could get for it, they are engaging in an act of CHARITY which they are under no ethical obligation to do.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

But, I specifically said in the sentences above that the very actions you describe I would not define as greed? I was suggesting that circumstances do matter.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSugarKane*
Okay I thought I was done with this thread but then I read that statement and once again I am all fired up









What I don't understand is how can you call that greed when you do not know what is even being done with the money? What if a person is going to give the money to charity and here you are assuming they are greedy.I think to judge a situation you know nothing about is wrong.


I had nodded and agreed with you before, but deleted to try to stay out of it. :LOL But what the heck...


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Wow, I could really go for a big Libertarian group hug right now.


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

Wanted to add I am no angel.I am not trying to come off as a saint.I am not greedy about money but have been known to be about certain diapering items in the past














:


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't find people greedy for selling dipes at high prices. I am poor. I can afford pf and all sorts of covers, PUL or wool. I can also afford used dipes that are not hyena gear. That does not make my experience cding any less than all of the hyena moms.

I just can't afford the same stuff. Does that make me jealous? Sometimes because I wish my finacial situation was better. Does that make them greedy? Absolutely not! They are mamas who are financially better off. No big deal.

Is this an issue just because not everyone can afford it? Would it be bad if I bought a cover for $4 and it sold for $5?

It is an auction people. You have a choice of whether or not to bid. The seller is not "selling" it at a higher price. We, the bidders, are bidding at a higher price. If any thing, that would make those of us who are bidding the bad guys. KWIM?


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Please read the whole paragraph and don't just quote one sentence. My point was that ethics are tricky. Sometimes people are selling because they need money, and that is different than just selling to make as much as possible. I think I am being misinterpreted here.


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## Ok (Feb 6, 2004)

Jessica: Well said! (from another middle-aged Mama w/ droopy boobs







)

I think in general I have opted into the more communal aspect of the diapering world, which is one reason I like MDC so much. There are certain diapering items I'll never own, and thats OK. I actually could afford a piece or two of them in the literal sense, but just not in my family's sense of economics. But I enjoy seeing the beautiful art. And in the world-economy, I'd much rather see money switching hands between WAHMs and Mamas than Proctor-and-Gamble & the Masses.

However, that doesn't mean I deny the existence of different attitudes-- nor judge them as deviant. Its just a different attitude. I do understand that the competition for certain items does drive that WAHMs business in very positive ways at certain levels.

I still definitely prefer the economy of scale we're working with in our little diapering enclave. And I have to agree that how other family economies work is none of my business (as long as its legal







)


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## tuffykenwell (Oct 23, 2002)

I don't personally see anything wrong with getting whatever you can for an item. The way I see it is lets say that hyena "A" is purchasing hyena diapers for the purposes of reselling...we all know how fickle hyena's can be so hyena "A" is still taking a risk by purchasing the product. If the hyena's are caught by some new fancy then the resale on the item will fall and they may or may not get their money back on the item.

So since they are willing to take the risk I think they are entitled to the profit (or lack thereof) which the market will bear...If you want some examples of what I am talking about how about the HoneyBoy's made by Jodi that sold for huge amounts just a couple of years ago...think anyone could get over $100 for a HoneyBoy regardless of the maker now (I doubt it because the hyena's have moved on). Ditto that for Sugar Peas (still well liked but no one is paying insane amounts for them any longer because they are readily available).

So lets say Laura could hire a team of seamstresses and pump out enough El Bees to satisfy everyone...the price people were willing to pay for the item would ironically fall as the cost of making it rose...thus the reason why so few WAHMs ever make it really "big" because you have to be able to purchase your materials in large enough quantities to make up for the increased cost of having your product manufactured and few WAHMs can make that leap.

Of course I don't have many hyena items and those that I do have I tend to use into the ground rather than sell LOL so I have no real world experience to speak of here









Steph


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

Can I just say that if I make any extra money on my auctions maybe I had better put it towards sigi advertising because having that always kept me in line. Without it I am a loose canon









I have no hard feelings towards anyone.Even those who are so wrong by not seeing things the right way..my way







:
JK


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Please read the whole paragraph and don't just quote one sentence. My point was that ethics are tricky. Sometimes people are selling because they need money, and that is different than just selling to make as much as possible. I think I am being misinterpreted here.

I read your entire post I understood that the main thrust of your post was that ethics are tricky. I wasn't even going to respond to your post at all, until I got to the part that I quoted. Naturally, since that was the part I was responding to, that's the part I quoted.


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## mum2tori (Apr 7, 2003)

Please ignore any typos... I'm NAKing.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *SEEPAE*
I think my main problem with this is a few months ago this would have been looked down upon and all the sudden now its ok? There was a thread about NOT selling something above retail and if you did its just unethical, and I still feel that way and Im very very very sad that you all do not anymore, it means the ethics of the diapering world are changing. It saddens me greatly and I am NOT afraid to point fingers, I have always made sure I offer my items at an ethical and reasonable price even though I SURE COULD use the money.

If I remember right one of the auctions that prompted that discussion had a BIN of an exorbitant price. Many thought that was tacky. If the auction "naturally" went that high hey more power to the seller but to automatically ask that high was frowned at. Same with some of the "high" over retail prices that were being listed at the TP too.

Personally I don't think its anyone's business where someone decided to sell their diapers. Used or otherwise. So I should only post diapers for sell on the TP? Even the ones that I get from other places? I've been buying diapers for over 3.5 years and only been coming here for a 1.5 years, this is the only place I can sell? I don't think so, I'll sell the diapers in the market that is most likely going to get me the best price. Because I turn around and BUY more products from other WAHMs with the money I make off of them. It is supporting other WAHMs. Now I don't sell stuff with the intention of getting higher than what I paid for something but I don't feel guilty about it if it happens. (Means more fluff!!














I also don't buy something with the full intention of just turning around and selling it either.

And how does anyone KNOW (unless the person says so) that someone IS doing that??

At different times in my diaper buying career :LOL I have been more "flush" with funds than at other times. SO yes I have bought in "bulk" for the future and later found that I don't like something as much as I'd thought.

Yes a few things I have bought knowing if I didn't like it... I'd be able to probably get my money back in full. Did I know that the Elbees that I placed a large order for (when I was flush and knew they were difficult to get then) and received in Jan04 would still be so difficult to get? No. Do I constantly consider selling the ones I still have left that we rarely or haven't used at all (because there is a HUGE demand for them)? Heck YES!!

I agree with the PP who said this isn't the first and it won't be the last time that this causes a stir.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*

Ethics are typically pretty context dependent and require a bit of thought. It may not always be the case that selling an elbee on ebay is indicative of avarice or greed. Perhaps the seller is in a difficult financial situation and needs to make some money. In that case perhaps they would choose to do something (sell on ebay) that they would not normally do. We might alter our ethical stance if we take these mitigating circumstances into account. But, that does not mean that under normal circumstances the seller would choose ebay. Claiming that you are selling on ebay due to unusual circumstances just underlines the fact that under normal circumstances you would probably not make that choice. We all know that you can recoup your entire investment for an elbee on the TP, so choosing to sell on ebay is a choice to get as much as possible. I would define that as greed and see no reason why a community shouldn't discourage such an attitude under normal circumstances.

I have to disagree with this statement about putting it up on eBay equates basiclly greedy behavior. I've sold some hyena stuff on the TP and some on eBay. I can't tell you how many PMs from the TP listings that I got from people begging or demanding (







) that I sell something to them at a much cheaper price than I had listed it. And I wasn't listed them at outrageous prices either, most were close to retail because they were either Brand New or Washed and Worn once. Why should I have to put up with that kind of behaviour when I wouldn't get it from eBay bidders? Sometimes listing on eBay is just easier when you get less attitude.

Also I have a question: Why is it okay for someone to get the highest price for something when they "need" money but not when someone just decides to sell something? Why does finacial straits make something 'ethical'?

That has never made sense to me.
















P.S. I started typing this over an hour ago.







: Hunt and peck one handed typing sucks... and he JUST fell asleep too.


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## MissSugarKane (Jun 19, 2003)

It is annoying to list a hyena item on the TP sometimes.Then you have to answer a ton of pm's and sometimes check times of posts and pm's to see who was first.Whenever I would list a hyena item on the TP I would have to make sure that I had time to sit and be ready to edit the listing ASAP and reply to the pm's.Ebay is so much easier.And Samantha brought up a good point.Why should only MDC moms get a chance at the el bees and such.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Holy Smokes!







I mostly leave the diapering page for a couple of months and I just happened to pop on...and the drama marches on. :LOL

FWIW, I don't think it's anybodys business what you sell your property for. I do enough things deemed stupid by others to get a heap of unwanted judging...far be it for me to judge someone elses needs or wants.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Ok, this is one ethical standpoint, but, while persuasively stated, it is not the only one. In order to accept that there can never be anything unethical about sellling luxury items at market prices, one must also assume that the existence of said luxury items in no way impacts the existence/quality/availability of necessity items. If drug companies are busy producing viagra because there is a great luxury market for it, they are not investing in the production of drugs for aids or diabetes or cancer etc. So the line between luxury items and necessity items is not as clear cut as Angelica's perspective suggests.

Without going into detail about your example about the drug industry (whose business model is based on government enforced immaterial rights regulation which are a violation to natural property rights), cloth diapers remain luxury items. If you follow your line of thought to the end, then not a single person on this planet is entitled to produce a single luxury item as long as there is any primary need unmet. Where do you draw the line? When is a SAHM allowed to produce the first luxury item? When there are no homeless people in the US? When there is no hunger in Africa? When we have a cure for AIDS (I bet she could do her share in the research too)? Why are you using your luxury item (computer and internet service) at the moment for mostly entertainment purposes as opposed packing canned food for the Asian tsunami victims. But that's not your responsibility or moral obligation. People are entitled to produce luxury items even when there are unmet primary needs in the world as there will always be. But please, since you seem to disagree, were would you draw the line and how would you enforce this? And in general, who should draw the line?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Second, saying that something is the eqivalent of a communist/socialist ideology is not in and of itself an argument against it. One must explain why such an ideology is undesireable.

I think there has been enough theoretical and empirical evidence the last century to make it rather clear why a communist/socialist system is not desirable and therefore I won't elaborate on this point. If anyone truly wants to get into a debate about this, please PM me. To state it shortly, in a system where prices are decided by individuals (as opposed to bids and offers on the free market), we need a regulator. Who get to be this regulator? How is he elected? What about those individuals who do not accept that the fruits of their labor is taken to the common pool? A socialist system requires either the use of violence or the threat of violence to function. Thus, being the only non-violent alternative, the free market is clearly the more just one. If you think otherwise how do you justify the use of violence? You haven't mentioned violence thusfar, and I suspect you haven't accepted that element in a larger communist/socialist system yet. If you think that violence is not necessary in such a system and that it can function simply based on inducing guilt in people, then name a single example where this has happened. (You can have a small commune, from 10-100 individuals where a commune can work to a certain extent simply with the use of inducing guilt, but never a nation from 10,000 to however many million individuals where this can work). It's important to note that inducing guilt is only appropriate on ethically just grounds. If not, people will eventually realize that their behavior was in no way morally wrong and begin to resent those which they have been performing charity for, since they won't see them as appreciative, rather as arrogant, and themselves as manipulated. This will contribute to social division.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Third, what is the meaning of "fair market value?" What makes "market" value better than "use" value, or the value of labor and materials? We are often told it is because the market is not biased. It is the "invisible hand," and hence not subjective in the way that other determinations of value might be. But, the market does not exist in a vacuum. Markets exist in real worlds with real inequalities and injustices, and inevitably reflects those injustices. There is nothing sacred about the market. It is only as fair and just and valuable as we make it. A "market" requires an infrastructure of buyers and sellers (ours happens to be characterized by extremes of wealth and poverty), it requires rules of the game to govern its operation, and it requires a way to generate demand for items (such as a discussion forum where hype can create artificial demand). All of these things are subjective and biased. Ebay, for example, has rules against bidding up one'e own item. According to Angelica's ethics, this rule is unnecessary. As long as the buyer "voluntarily" (and we could also debate the meaning of voluntary) puts in her bid, why should it matter if the seller is jacking up the price by bidding on her own item?

Fair market value is based on VOLUNTARY bids and offers. There is no threat of violence or confiscation of property involved. Just two parties believing they are both better off doing the transaction based on their bids and offers. This aspect of "voluntarity" makes market value better. How is your 'use' value determined? Who determines it? How is it enforced if the parties do not happen to voluntarily agree on it?
Your notion that the value of a good could be the labor and material put into it is fundamentally flawed. Assume that I would decide to build a car. After educating myself for years and constructing it manually, I would finish by maybe 2010 if I'm lucky. I would have put easily more than $200,000 of labour + material cost into building this thing which would be light-years away from factory produced vehicles. Can I then assume to sell it to you for $200,000? It is after all a "fair price" :the labour and material put into it.
The fair vale of an item is what somebody is *voluntarily* willing to pay for it, that is the market value, nothing else. Period.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Finally, perhaps it is worth thinking about why it is that acts of charity can raise someone's standing in a community. Presumably we honor such acts because we see value in placing the preservation of communal ties (and the mitigation of poverty, inequality,and injustice that strong community requires) above mere self-interest. It makes perfect sense for a community or nation to cultivate such a communal attitude by developing an ethical perspective that discourages avarice and greed.

About charity: Charity is a free market act. It is by definition a VOLUNTARY act. Cultivating a communal attitude can benefit some needy people for some time but if this attitude becomes predominant and if everybody counts on these acts of charity we soon have a nation of beggars and very few primary producers and when we then go down two generation we do not have a nation at all (see case USSR). Charity can only happen in a system where private property rights are respected because you cannot give away what is not yours to give. I do agree that cultivating an attitude of charity is good but it has nothing to do with taking the fair market value of your goods. *If you are not taking fair market vale you are performing an act of charity*. If charity by definition is a voluntary act it can never be unethical not to do it. You would need to make the case why someone is obliged to perform an act of charity.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
Ethics are typically pretty context dependent and require a bit of thought. It may not always be the case that selling an elbee on ebay is indicative of avarice or greed. Perhaps the seller is in a difficult financial situation and needs to make some money. In that case perhaps they would choose to do something (sell on ebay) that they would not normally do. We might alter our ethical stance if we take these mitigating circumstances into account. But, that does not mean that under normal circumstances the seller would choose ebay. Claiming that you are selling on ebay due to unusual circumstances just underlines the fact that under normal circumstances you would probably not make that choice. We all know that you can recoup your entire investment for an elbee on the TP, so choosing to sell on ebay is a choice to get as much as possible. I would define that as greed and see no reason why a community shouldn't discourage such an attitude under normal circumstances.

Contrary to common belief ethics is not context dependent or subjective. In human conduct there are fundamental and universal rights and wrongs, which do not change with place, time or society. Burning children at the stake was unethical yesterday, is today, and will be tomorrow. People engaging in voluntary barter with their own goods was ethical yesterday, is today, and will be tomorrow. (To think otherwise would be to think that initiating violence [to prevent these voluntary transaction which by definition will take place if not prevented] is ethical, and clearly initiating violence in this case is not.)
I'd like you to define 'greed.' I understand you seem to object to the scarcity of resources and unequal distribution of them in nature. If so, where would you draw the line? How much can a person own before he becomes 'greedy' or too wealthy, since if I read you correctly between the lines you somehow seem to think that those too go hand in hand? $100,000? $500,000? More? Less?
Any person in a community has of course the right to discourage 'greedy' behaviour and it can be good to some extent. What you seem to think of as 'greed', the voluntary free market operations, are however the foundations of material wealth *and thus make charity possible in the first place*. Therefore I would not object to what you call 'greed' too much. A nation of beggars gets nothing in the end.

I do believe that matters in ethics and economics are less subjective than people in general seem to think. You have naturally the right to your own opinion and you have the right to disagree with me. However, the fact that you might personally not like or approve of something has not necessarily anything to do with ethics. Ethics is more a science of logic than the introspective analysis of emotions.
Analyze these issues and please continue to argue with me if you like. But I ask you this: are you *sure* that what you call "greed" is the root of all evil and not the root of all good? An undisputable fact of reality is material scarcity, and the root of this issue is how to address that. But please address how we are to do that, if _not_ allowing individuals to operate on a voluntary basis.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
Wow, I could really go for a big Libertarian group hug right now.









me too!


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Great thoughtful response Angelica. I was not trying to offer a complete ethical theory here, just to suggest to others that the perspective you offered is only one of many ethical theories.

To say that there are connections between luxury and necessity items does not necessarily mean that no luxury items can be produced until all "needs" are met (it might mean this in some theories, but I can easily think of theories where the requirements are less stringent), it is only to suggest that seeing the connections between the production of some luxury items and the scarcity of some need items might help us to make better (more thoughtful) decisions about which luxury items we as a society want. Also, democratic communities have established elaborate procedures for making public decisions about the distribution of all sorts of goods (granted, some of these decision-making procedures are flawed, but that is definitely another debate). So decisions about production are not, should not, and in fact never have been, left soley to individuals. So there is not only one endpoint to my line of thought. You stated that there can NEVER be anything unethical about selling luxury items at market value, and I am merely pointing out that that assumption depends on a particular ethical perspective.

I will not debate the merits of socialist political and economic systems except to say that there is much debate remaining over the best way to organize production and distribution. To suggest otherwise is simply to ignore that debate. Your perspective again depends on a particular theory of human nature and motivation, for which there is some evidence. But it is certainly not the only theory of human nature and behavior available.

I did not really offer an alternative theory of value, but rather was raising questions about the meaning of "fair market value." My references to use value or other means of determining value were just quick references to other possibilities. The idea that market transactions are defined by voluntariness seems to be the same as that offered by Milton Freidman in his famous book CAPITALISM AND FREEDOM. Here Friedman suggests that market transactions are free as long as they are bilaterally voluntary and informed. Again, I am just asking people to think seriously about what this means. What does it really mean for both parties to be completely informed about a transaction. And what does it mean for a transaction to be completely voluntary. Obviously you could spend some time thinking about this problem, but I would suggest that the current situation of great inequality of wealth and power and voice not only in the US but also in much of the rest of the world, makes it very difficult for transactions to be completely voluntary (unless of course you have a very weak definition of what voluntary means - ie as long as I don't have a gun to your head). Voluntariness may indeed play a role in determining value, but it is just not as simple as you suggest.

Your definition of charity also depends on other definitions. It assumes we agree on the definition of fair market value, which, as I stated above, is a disputed concept. I agree that it assumes a system of private property rights. But remember, just like the notion of a market, property rights have to be defined. They are not self-evident. And, defining them is, or ought to be, a public political act. Even if I accept your definitions, I still do not agree that it can never be unethical not to engage in an act of charity (unless of course you are arguing that charity as well only applies when we are talking about luxuries and not about needs, and then well what is the point?). It would be unethical for the US not to offer disaster relief to South Asia. According to your perspective this would still be an act of charity, would it not?

To say that ethics are not context dependent is again a PARTICULAR ethical perspective, but certainly not the only one. Also, to say that ethics are context dependent does not necessarily mean that there are not fundamental rights and wrongs. What it does mean is that most of the time it is very difficult to say act X is unethical in all contexts across history etc. Sure, I think we can say that about some things (genocide for example), but the ethics of everyday life is not quite as simple. What I am suggesting here is that when we think about certain more mundane acts, like selling on ebay, the context DOES matter. It is too simplistic to say that it is either right or wrong, period.

My point about greed, which I am sorry was misunderstood, is just this. We have had lots of posts saying it is perfectly acceptable to sell your items for as much as you can get for them. I do not believe we have had any posts stating that it is acceptable to be as greedy as you want to be. My position is simply that under normal circumstances (ie not economic need or charity auction, and yes, someone would need to decide what constitues economic need) sellling for as much as you can get is what I would define as greed. I do see a significant difference between someone who needs to pay their bills to keep the lights on selling their hyena product at auction, and Pamela Anderson doing the same (I am assuming something about her economic needs here that may not be accurate, but you get the point). And, I agree it would be very complicated to defined needs and think about all the different possiblilities, but that is what a complex ethical system for a complex society requires.

I will just end by saying that your perspective on ethics, that it is
scientific system and less subjective than people think, is indeed one valid perspective. However, it is not the only one. And that it is not the only one was the whole point of my post in the first place. There are many understandings of ethics that have been debated for thousands of years. I don't believe I said that greed was the root of all evil. I don't believe I stated anything about the root of all evil. I merely suggested that a comunity ethics that discourages greed might be a useful thing in some contexts.

Ok, my kids are waking up, so I have only had time to respond (pretty pathetically, sorry) to Angelica. But, I guess momma ethics calls. This has been fun. I'll try and get back before the thread gets pulled as off topic. :LOL


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

This thread is enormous and horrid to read through. I can see the baloney monsters got out. :LOL

Angelica


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Thank you for continuing our discussion, Jessica! And Kathleen, I'm sorry this is no fun for maybe anyone but Jessica and I!







:

You say in different forms at least on 3 occasions that there are many other ethical theories than a free market based libertarian system. Could you please name one or two or give me a list. I will gladly point out the problems and inconsistencies with each and every one of them, one by one. You seem to say that there are other solutions, yet you do not provide a single alternative for me to analyze and criticize here. Random objection here and there are not enough. We need an equally comprehensive system which addresses all the aspects that a laissez fair system does.

When it comes to Friedman's definition of a voluntary trade he is simply wrong. This has been debated in academia many times over. In this world there are no guarantees of full information. Who would define when a trade was informed? If no one was forced by the threat of violence to a trade it was voluntary. It does not need to be well informed. People are 'tricked' to buying products based on very biased information through commercials all the time. Yet purchases triggered by commercials should be regarded as voluntary. In a free society people are allowed to make decisions without full information like most people do throughout their lives. They can also decide to obtain more information before engaging in the transaction. Nobody is forced to do anything, hence voluntary. Friedman's addition is simply wrong.

The problem with your subjective ethics is that it leads to exactly the kind of legislation the US has today. Million of pages of cases of all possible different scenarios one by one and still we get new ones by the thousands every year. The legislation of a nation should be based on a few fundamental rules that protect the populations rights, the constitution. In the US the spirit of the US constitution is long gone and dead. A nation's legislation should be short and give room for individuals to agree to it among themselves on a voluntary basis. Any credible ethical code should consist of only a few principles from which you can derive the right conduct for particular cases.

With your system of ethical subjectivity you have not been able to define if it was ethical to sell diapers on ebay or not. You need more information, don't you? How can such an ethical code serve anybody, when a simple question like this cant be instantly answered?

When you talk about greed and the acceptability to get as much as you can for an item you need to address one important question. Acceptable to whom and on what grounds? The fact that you as a bystander do not approve of someone's voluntary transaction does not really lead to any ethical implications. You are entitled to you feeling but are you introspective enough to find the root of your disapproval. Why does it bother you that these two people who both consider themselves better of after the transaction engaged in it in the first place? Can you formulate a simple ethical code for buying and selling diapers in your subjective world. The laissez fair solution fits on one line:
When two parties exchange a diaper on a voluntary basis for any amount of $, its ethical.
You can go on and ad:
If both or one of the parties is forced to do this trade by the threat of violence the whole transaction should no longer be considered ethical.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Critique is an essential and legitimate intellectual exercise.

There are dozens of ethical theories, many of which have developed out of critique of free market based theories, and many of which have their roots in theories that predate the Enlightenment and the development of classical economic liberalism.

I agree that Friedman is wrong, but how do you define "voluntary" without any reference to adequate information. Just eliminating "and informed" from Friedman's formulation doesn't clarify what it means for something to be voluntary (or at least doesn't clarify it enough for me). The choice to work at Walmart for a pittance is "voluntary" according to this definition. Yet there is so much coercion involved in that choice that I think it renders the idea of voluntariness meaningless.

The problem with the short and sweet understaning of constitutionalism or law is that it is difficult to address the complexities of contemporary society with a few simple principles. As I see it, the short and simple approach often tends to favor those who already have power and wealth and influence.

Gotta run now, I will try to add more specifics, and answer the diaper question tonight.


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## maggiemae (Apr 10, 2004)

Gosh- I am simply not smart enough to keep up with this thread! :LOL


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## todzwife (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamingMama*
This thread is enormous and horrid to read through. I can see the baloney monsters got out. :LOL

Angelica

































It used to bother me to see an Elbee go for $70...but really- if someone wants to pay $70 for an Elbee good for them...and yipee for the mama who sold it. She had NO control over how much it was going to go for. I've seen Elbees go for $25-$75 each on ebay...it really depends.

Can't we all be friends?







:


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## maggiemae (Apr 10, 2004)

I also wanted to add that I am very grateful for Ebay. How else would I have a chance to get my hands on that beautiful Mudpie baby inchworm fitted, right Angelica







. I wanted that when it was on the MDF but it was snagged before I got a chance to get it. I never have time to stalk the tp. At least now I have a fighting chance.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:

Thank you for continuing our discussion, Jessica! And Kathleen, I'm sorry this is no fun for maybe anyone but Jessica and I!








: I have a nasty head cold and I ache all over so when I read this thread my brain is going help me. :LOL I think it is good to sell for whatever you can get for your stuff. I never had it in me to do eBay because I personally hate selling on eBay but if there were another site that had tons of traffic I would go there and hope for the biggest dollar I could get. Let's face it we all need money.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamingMama*
I never had it in me to do eBay because I personally hate selling on eBay but if there were another site that had tons of traffic I would go there and hope for the biggest dollar I could get.


Me too! I just hate to do Ebay. The TP is so much easier. And then most of the time I just end up giving things away because it's too much of a hassle to sell things. I have some new Mother Ease stuff that I really should stick on Ebay though since that seems to be the only place to get good prices for that stuff.


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## GeorgiaGalHeidi (Apr 16, 2004)

If someone is listing them with good intentions and they just happen to go high, well, no biggee there. But, the mamas that stalk just to ge a hyena item to make a profit, well, that's lame. Especially to the lower income mamas that have bad connections and cannot afford the prices on ebay. It's a free country, they can do it, but it sure does say something about their character.







I usually list things first in the TP. IF there are no bites, I ebay. So, I never feel bad if the items go for higher, cause I offered them up at the TP first. I am not saying you have to do it this way, of course.


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## GeorgiaGalHeidi (Apr 16, 2004)

Angela-I do agree with you to a certain extent.







I mean, when I see something go for close to or over a hundred dollars, I don't get mad, I think the winning bidder is a fool! I say that cause no matter how much money I had, I just could not justify that(especially to dh!)


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I don't know how I feel about this. I've bought things (hyena dipes) above the retail price on ebay, and sold them considering the fact that it's used, making a small profit.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

I think that this all boils down to one basic thing--Socialists and Libertarians will never agree. No matter how much we go round and round, our core beliefs are just flat-out different.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
I think that this all boils down to one basic thing--Socialists and Libertarians will never agree. No matter how much we go round and round, our core beliefs are just flat-out different.

Sooooo true, mama.


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## girlfactory (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
Maybe you don't mean to sound so completely melodramatic and over the top, but I'm quite sure from my memory of the thread several months ago that the "diapering world" has NEVER been of one singular mind about this. I think that reasonable people can disagree about this subject and nobody needs to insinuate that the ethics of the community have gone to h#ll in a handbasket. Respectful disagreement is what makes this place great, and I tend to think that "pointing fingers" at people who disagree with you is in very bad form.

Perhaps someone can now invoke a customer related service issue so this thread can get pulled.

Karla

Karla, I love you. I mean really. I do. You are only the second person to ever make me laugh so hard I spit coke on my keyboard.


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## girlfactory (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
Wow, I could really go for a big Libertarian group hug right now.

consider yourself hugged


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Hey there!







I'd like a Libertarian hug from Terri, too.


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## girlfactory (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherTremblay*
This thread has been an interesting read for me, although I must confess the information is not something that hasn't already passed through my mind - all the various viewpoints, and been discussed by wahms amongst themselves ad infinitum, as well as from the consumer point of view. Thanks, Julia, for opening up a thoughtful discussion, wherever it may have lead us all!

Here's my 2c, or 2.00, depending upon how lengthy my post gets, here.

From the wahm standpoint (or, should I say, from *a* wahm's standpoint, since I neither speak for other wahms, nor would I ever presume to do so).

You can speak for me anyday..........you are complete, concise, and to the point in your thoughts. I appreciate that







I also happen to agree with your points.


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## girlfactory (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
Hey there!







I'd like a Libertarian hug from Terri, too.









teehee








we're coming out of the woodwork eh ladies


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with buying hyena diapers and then turning around and selling them for a profit, even though I personally have never done this. The wahm's who make them sure do need to raise their prices though! They could be making all that money. It isn't like anyone *needs* hyena diapers. There are plenty of great quality diapers out there for very reasonable prices, both wahm and mass produced if what you are really looking for is a diaper to put on your baby to hold poop and pee and not a fashion statement. I don't have any hyena diapers and we're doing just fine







I think that the whole reason a particular diaper gets to "hyena" status is just because they are hard to get. Someone raves about it and then another person does and before you know it the wahm is swamped with orders. People like to have things that are hard to get and that everyone else wants. Hyena diapers change a lot over the years. Back when sugarpeas were super hard to get they were all anyone could talk about. Now it's other dipes like El Bees. In the 4 years I have been cding there have been a lot of different "hot" diapers. I mean, it's not as if people are starving or anything. I just can't see getting all worked up and calling someone a bad person with no morals over expensive diapers:LOL


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## ChattyCat (Sep 7, 2004)

Wow, I leave you guys alone for a few days and look what happens! :LOL

Here's my $.02:
Seeing as how we like to think of this as a community, it's nice when people offer they're used items on the TP for a reasonable price, and a little rude when they try to scalp on the TP. But, there is no obligation to be nice and offer things on the TP or to buy an item being scalped. Everyone can make there own decisions.

eBay is an entirely different creature, however. A seller cannot determine what any particular item will go for. (I for instance sold a Luxe diaper that just wasn't working for us (used about 3x, no stains, excellent condition) for half what I paid new.) If someone can get $70 or $700 for an Elbee, then go for it. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Do I think it's yucky when people purchase hard to get items just to turn around and list them on eBay? Yes. Do I think they're evil or unethical? No. That's just the way the world works.

I don't think people deserve to get more based on why they're selling. It's all about the market for the diapers. Supply and demand! The Fluffymail mommas and Laura of Elbee could probably charge lots more for their dipes. Sure, they'd probably sell fewer, but they'd still make money. Perhaps, they'd make even more money. The purpose of selling is to find the price point at which you can make the most money (price goes up, numbers go down/price goes down, numbers go up). So, who knows?

Now would it be nice, if these hyena diaper producers took notice of who frequently scalped diapers (not people who are selling them, because they didn't work or they need money or whatever reason... just scalpers) and created a no sell list? Sure, but that's not really their responsibility and just creates more work for the hard-working WAHMs. Especially, since they'd have to decide if each person's reason for selling the diaper was "valid." It's just not practical. Great idea though in theory.

So, we are left with the world as it is. We can choose to buy hyena diapers or not. There will always be other quality diapers available to purchase elsewhere. Just because I want a Volvo (which I can't afford) doesn't mean I get to have one. I have to be happy with my Honda. Same thing applies to diapers. Just because I want an ElBee (which I can't get my hands on) doesn't mean I get to have one. I must be satisfied with the rest of my diapers that work just fine.


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## wildthing (Feb 16, 2003)

Wowzers!!!!! It has taken me over 4 hours (between nursing, making lunch and playing with kids) to try to read through this thread. Quite unfortunately, I have had to skim through most of Angelica and Jessica's posts, but I plan on reading them in entirety tonight when the kids are asleep. So incredibly thought provoking!
In general, I agree with Angelica. I am a business owner. In addition to my diapers, I own two IRL businesses. There are ideals in business, and there are realities, sometimes the two mesh, sometimes not. I am afraid I do not have time to type out a well versed post, I wish I did.
Heather, I appreciate your post as well, thank you for writing it.








In general, I agree that once a person has purchased an item, it is their property to do with as they please. Who am I to tell someone otherwise?
I wish I had more time to write today, but my time is up. Maybe I can come back tonight.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
I think that this all boils down to one basic thing--Socialists and Libertarians will never agree. No matter how much we go round and round, our core beliefs are just flat-out different.

On one level, I agree. There are some pretty different core beliefs here. However, that does not discourage dialogue for me. Since I am really not satisfied with either position, I keep thinking that there might be a new sythesis possible here, a new way of thinking about these sorts of questions.

What it really boils down to for me is that fact that I am suspicious of any theory that claims to have solved the problem or answered the question definitively for all time. The older I get, and the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know. Part of the criticism of my sort of contextual and complicated ethics is that it is so messy and indeterminate, and you always have to keep thinking. Well, that's just what I like best about it. I am much more comfortable with the grey area than I am with hard and fast principles. I think a little cognitive dissonance is enlightening and really the only way to see some sorts of oppression.


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boobiemama*
Seems to me you guys are putting WAY too much thought into something petty.....









Yep. The only person who should be bothered is the person paying the credit card bill. It's a person's free will to spend their money however they like in this country.


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

I followed this thread yesterday until Pamela Anderson showed up, then just ran across it again. like boobiemama said, I thought it was just too much energy spent on this topic. but then, angelica, wow! great posts! ITA with you and others.

and as I've said before, jamie, you crack me up!

I'm in for the libertarian group hug too.


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:

Gosh- I am simply not smart enough to keep up with this thread!
:LOL me either.


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## Ok (Feb 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
On one level, I agree. There are some pretty different core beliefs here. However, that does not discourage dialogue for me. Since I am really not satisfied with either position, I keep thinking that there might be a new sythesis possible here, a new way of thinking about these sorts of questions.

What it really boils down to for me is that fact that I am suspicious of any theory that claims to have solved the problem or answered the question definitively for all time. The older I get, and the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know. Part of the criticism of my sort of contextual and complicated ethics is that it is so messy and indeterminate, and you always have to keep thinking. Well, that's just what I like best about it. I am much more comfortable with the grey area than I am with hard and fast principles. I think a little cognitive dissonance is enlightening and really the only way to see some sorts of oppression.

Now once again you've said it better than I could. I also enjoy the dialogue and I'm not particularly happy w/ any of the different sides. I punt into deontological ethics b/c I'm definitely unhappy w/ pronouncements of apriori and/or ontological "ethics."

Even those claiming to love capitalist-type ideologies are really talking about rule-bound "capitalism." Otherwise you'd think what Enron did is perfectly legitimate, that unfettered monopolies are acceptable and that junk bond trading is great. There are laws against corrupt levels of greed that pure capitalism would just have to put up with. But the concept of "corrupt" only comes up b/c the community agrees that unfettered capitalism goes awry much too easily.

Is that beyond the scope of a simple diapering discussion of re-selling things on ebay? Of course. But a number of the responses here are rather naive in their portrayals of capitalism-- as if its an ethical system of god-given, natural or human rights. Capitalism is NOT an ethical system, although its definitely got plenty of people who justify the economics w/ philosophical pronouncements. I don't happen to buy lots of them.

I believe in tax codes which help to redistribute money, for instance. I believe in community members helping each other. And I'm perfectly confident that many of the proponents of capitalism (here and elsewhere) are deeply involved in charitable good works and volunteerism. Thats great, and definitely softens the blow of the ugly side of capitalism.

Put another way, Rawls has an idea that if we were building a community and you didn't know which job you would have...the income disparity between the jobs would not be nearly as great as turns out in real life. The garbage collector would not be so disdained in economic terms b/c if you don't know if you'll be the garbage collector or the dentist, you're more likely to make their incomes more equal. I do think this plays into diapers as well, given that the sewing WAHMs don't really earn a proper working wage (most of them don't seem to anyway). This is true of most traditionally-female jobs. That smacks of a generic oppression against the roles of women in our society. Thats perfectly acceptable in the capitalist scheme. Its not acceptable in mine. How do I fight it? Well, I can buy "small"-- I can support WAHMs instead of Proctor and Gamble. I can be part of a small enclave of a special economy instead of the generic disposible economy.

Yes, our enclave has many elements of capitalism. It'd be silly to claim or hope otherwise. But its also a small sub-economy with its own communitarian ethics. And the growing pains of the community are fully evidenced in the above debate.

Anyway, I think I'm basically following Jessica's line of thinking and really appreciate the thoughts behind her posts. I appreciate Angelica's side too, I just don't lean that way so much.

Can I still join in the group hug?


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

I was beginning to feel a little left out of the hugging here. I might have to beg into the libertarian group hug too. There don't seem to be enough old hippies here to form a group.


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## weetzie (May 29, 2003)

Virg and Jessica, can I get in on your hug?


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## Rising Sun (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:

I'd like a Libertarian hug from Terri, too.

















This thread has really evolved to be very interesting. I've enjoyed reading it.

It's interesting how understood "rules" or Mores tend to be more important than the written ones. That's such a great thing about communities.

Still on the subject of reselling diapers....

When a person scalps them, it irritates me. This is from the consumers point of view. From a business point of view.... it's not even my business.

OTOH, who has time to determine who is buying and reselling because it didn't work out for them and who is scalping hyena products? Certainly not me. We all have children to take care of or prepare for.

Personally, I am happy that people are willing to pay $70 for a diaper. I'm happy that people love Fuzbaby and will pay $$ for those too. I think it sets a standard in the cloth diapering community.... a standard that makes it so that wahms get paid for their time and effort. I think it puts women owned businesses on a new level. This is what we need to do... we need to work towards small businesses succeeding.

If people are always out for the cheapest diapers and the greatest deals, they are not going to be able to support the small guy. They will need to buy manufactured diapers. But, if people continue to appreciate the finer qualities of handmade items in unique designes, they will continue to seek out the small wahms to purchase from, and this will help the small guys succeed. All of us women have the power to change society, and the power to support the small guys. If it means we spend a little more, that is worth it to me. If it means that some people pay $20 for a diaper and turn around and sell it for $70 on ebay... that is worth it to me.

Teri


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

: if there's any hugging room left, I sure could use in.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

I find Teri's perspective very interesting precisely because it is not based entirely on a libertarian, "we are free/have the right to do whatever we want with our money" approach. Rather, she has offered a rationale for selling high that is also justified by the positive consequences of doing so. I am actually pretty sympathetic to this argument. If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small,local economies, and that these benefits outweigh the potentially harmful consequence of promoting an attitude of materialism and consumerism then I might be willing to keep my diapproving mouth shut. I am not yet convinced, but I am open to the possibility.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *averymybaby*







: if there's any hugging room left, I sure could use in.

I think this thread has been fun, and you are welcome in any hug I'm in!


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## HeatherTremblay (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlfactory*
You can speak for me anyday..........you are complete, concise, and to the point in your thoughts. I appreciate that I also happen to agree with your points.

Ooh, I've been validated! :LOL







Now I'm in on the group hug, too.
















Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small,local economies...

Now, that's exactly the sort of idea I'm talking about. Nicely put!


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## Rising Sun (Sep 15, 2003)

:LOL

This thread gets more and more interesting, and I am glad we had it.

My views are strange... and probably not popular in any way. But, I believe that if there is somebody selling an item, and somebody wanting to buy that item for the price it is being sold..... allrighty then... let them deal with each other. It's their item, their money.... and it benefits the market.

Here's the capitalist in me speaking.... When somebody has a lot of money to spend, and spends it on items such as expensive cloth diapers, it distributes the money to the smaller guys. Keeping the money distributed keeps the economy good. Hey... re-distribute the wealth! Keeping the smaller guy in business helps the gap between poor and rich shrink. My idea of an ideal world would be one where everybody has a job, because they want to contribute to society. Everybody is compensated fairly for that job, and those who hit hard times are helped out by their community. I see that a lot in the cloth diapering world. We hear of a wahm in hard times and we all pull together to help.

Anyway... if somebody has $70 to spend and wants to spend it on an Elbee, I would rather see that $70 go to hand made cloth diapers, and the money distributed to the smaller guys, than see the mama run to a large store (Gap, Gymboree, etc.) and spend it there. kwim?

Now, personally, I can't spend $70 on a diaper. I would go to a lesser known wahm that makes quality products. But, if the person wants that Elbee and is willing to pay for it.... let them. There are other good quality diapers out there.... plenty of them. So, I don't buy for a moment that it is the only option for this person.... must have elbee or child won't have diapers at all.... but again... it's not really my business.

My concern is seeing the smaller guys succeed and the economy improved by this success.

And in my own case, I had some of the coolest diapers. I had an FCB, a few ecobaby grow with me, a Fuz, a Little Lovies, a knickernappies, etc. All kinds of nice diapers. I saved them for my friend who has a baby that is over a year younger than Emily. So, when I didn't need them anymore, I was giving them to her. As it turns out, she decided that cloth was too hard and sposies were easier.







So, I ebayed some of them... I needed the money afterall. I actually felt a little guilty because I felt like I should be helping out another mama by giving them to her. But, I'm going to stick to selling most and give the rest that I have to a local charity.

Anyway... I'm more Libertarian than anything else, but my dh says that my ideas are very utopian. Less laws, less government, people helping each other, people doing what's right because it's right, communities taking responsibility for the people in them, etc.

Oh, and people buying a ton of cloth diapers... yeah... cloth.... definately.

:LOL

Teri


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rising Sun*
:LOL

This thread gets more and more interesting, and I am glad we had it.

My views are strange... and probably not popular in any way. But, I believe that if there is somebody selling an item, and somebody wanting to buy that item for the price it is being sold..... allrighty then... let them deal with each other. It's their item, their money.... and it benefits the market.

Here's the capitalist in me speaking.... When somebody has a lot of money to spend, and spends it on items such as expensive cloth diapers, it distributes the money to the smaller guys. Keeping the money distributed keeps the economy good. Hey... re-distribute the wealth! Keeping the smaller guy in business helps the gap between poor and rich shrink. My idea of an ideal world would be one where everybody has a job, because they want to contribute to society. Everybody is compensated fairly for that job, and those who hit hard times are helped out by their community. I see that a lot in the cloth diapering world. We hear of a wahm in hard times and we all pull together to help.

Anyway... if somebody has $70 to spend and wants to spend it on an Elbee, I would rather see that $70 go to hand made cloth diapers, and the money distributed to the smaller guys, than see the mama run to a large store (Gap, Gymboree, etc.) and spend it there. kwim?

Now, personally, I can't spend $70 on a diaper. I would go to a lesser known wahm that makes quality products. But, if the person wants that Elbee and is willing to pay for it.... let them. There are other good quality diapers out there.... plenty of them. So, I don't buy for a moment that it is the only option for this person.... must have elbee or child won't have diapers at all.... but again... it's not really my business.

My concern is seeing the smaller guys succeed and the economy improved by this success.

And in my own case, I had some of the coolest diapers. I had an FCB, a few ecobaby grow with me, a Fuz, a Little Lovies, a knickernappies, etc. All kinds of nice diapers. I saved them for my friend who has a baby that is over a year younger than Emily. So, when I didn't need them anymore, I was giving them to her. As it turns out, she decided that cloth was too hard and sposies were easier.







So, I ebayed some of them... I needed the money afterall. I actually felt a little guilty because I felt like I should be helping out another mama by giving them to her. But, I'm going to stick to selling most and give the rest that I have to a local charity.

Anyway... I'm more Libertarian than anything else, but my dh says that my ideas are very utopian. Less laws, less government, people helping each other, people doing what's right because it's right, communities taking responsibility for the people in them, etc.

Oh, and people buying a ton of cloth diapers... yeah... cloth.... definately.

:LOL

Teri


Ah - VERY well put!! I totally agree with your entire thread.









BTW, there are more FCB AIOs on ebay today for those who want to participate in an innocent bidding war. :LOL (no, they are not mine







)


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## Kari_mom (Jun 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaSAR*
...If I could be convinced that selling hyena diapers to the highest bidder would indeed raise the profile of small wahm made items thereby mitigating gender based income inequality, and enouraging small, local economies, and that these benefits outweigh the potentially harmful consequence of promoting an attitude of materialism and consumerism ...

I am not sure it would/could mitigate gender based income inequality, because the consumers who purchase diapers are also often victims of gender based income inequality, you know? Women buying from women, smaller pool of money to go around. Men buying from women, positive influx of money into the women pool, the pools become more equal. Maybe WAHMs should sell to male diaper perverts, :LOL .

Just a thought. I really know little to nothing about economic theories but this has been an interesting thread.


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