# Is it bad to give your children Cheese???



## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

My children love cheese and I give it to them when they want it. My dh keeps telling me not to give them cheese because it is bad for them. I keep arguing with him saying noit isn't, "Where are you getting your info"?







: He keeps saying "its just bad for them".

So what do you think, Is it bad? I mean anything excessive is bad but this isn't the case here. I don't know what to think! I tell him "how can it be bad, its a source of calcium". this argument is continuous because I keep giving them cheese.

I don't know, is it?

Steff


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

HUH? Tell him he needs to be more specific about what is "bad". Is he worried about cholesterol? Hormones? Fat? Once he can identify what he is worried about, we can talk. But no, I don't think it is "bad" to give kids cheese.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't see how it could be (unless abused)







: It's a dairy product and it has calcium... I guess the only stuff that would be "bad" is the processed stuff that's not really cheese IMO anyways...

Cam would rip my head off if I tried to take cheese away from him - it's his favorite food in the world!!!! He's especially fond of cheddar - he can be balling his eyes out over something and if I give him a piece of cheese he'll instantly stop :LOL

Karen


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

hi steff,
Dairy products are not something that I or my daughter have in our diet because of what I have learned about them since having her...it is scary to me how dairy has been pushed onto people and the reality is that they have a very negative impact on your body.

here is an article about eating dairy that gives an honest look at consuming dairy, something you would never get from the dairy industry or the government who also pushes dairy on us.

http://www.**********/general26/milk.htm


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

I guess it would be bad if that was ALL your child ate, but not in moderation like everything else. My DS went through a stage of refusing any food but cheese. And I was just happy that he was eating SOMETHING.

It also depends on what kind of cheese you are talking about. Some are high in sodium or cholesterol. And some super processed cheeses remind me of sheets of plastic, so I don't think that kind of cheese could be that great for you.

I guess you can make a valid debate about cheese and dairy, no matter which side you are on though.


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## Ivarson (Aug 28, 2002)

I don't think milk or dairy is the cause of unhealthy Americans. We can blame that on processed foods, artificial sweeteners and sugar. Fat doesn't make you fat, sugar does. Cheese and milk are GREAT for kids - better than teddy grahams and tang by far!


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

I would like to add some things which I should have put in my original post on this thread.

Most dairy that is being pushed on us out there is not good for many reasons, it is pasturized which means it is cooked and that makes it very mucous forming and kills any living enzymes that are present in it.

Cows are being shot full of growth hormones which get into the body...anyone see any link between the serious numbers of overwieght children and the dairy consumption? I know its not all caused by dairy, kids are eating lots of growth hormone meat, refined sugary foods, hydrogenated oils, preservatives and all kinds of other scary stuff. And there is a difference between bad fat and good fat...bad fat will make ya fat...btw...I agree, milk is great for kids, mamas milk or nut milks but isnt it logical that cows milk is for baby cows and human milk for baby humans (and artificial growth hormones arent for any of us)??

I wonder, if milk has so much calcium in it than why is it that we have so many people with osteoporosis, being prescribed a calcium supplement? I would'nt be surprised to find there is more calcium in a carrot than a gallon of milk!

Chedder Cheese is not yellow naturally, it is dyed and dye is not a healthy and natural thing to be eating...and neither is the table salt in most cheese for that matter...it takes a very discriminating eye these days to avoid all the bad food out there because it is _everywhere._

Small/moderate amounts of *raw*organic* dairy preferably goat or sheep in the diet can be okay even beneficial but 99% of the diary out there is neither raw or organic. There are so many yummy dairy replacements that make it very easy for dd and I to leave it out. Making fresh nut milks, seed cheese and yogurt at home is easy and so much better than cows milk, of course that is my opinion.

The proof of the effect your chosen diet is having on you and your children is in your health and well being and that is all the proof you should need to deciede what works best for you.


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## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

I would be very surprised to learn that a carrot has more calcium in it than a glass of milk. Now, if you want to compare a bunch of spinach, then we're talking.

Salt is not an unhealthy substance unless you're sensitive to it, in which case you should limit your consumption. Most people have no trouble consuming pretty much any amount of salt. The idea that high salt consumption gives everyone high blood pressure is outdated and has been proven false.

And finally, no, I don't see a link between dairy consumption and overweight kids. Kids have been drinking cow's milk for a long, long time in this country, but only in the last 20-30 years or so has there been a big problem with overweight children.

There are lots of good and valid reasons that a person might want to avoid dairy or other animal products. I am definitely not disputing that, or trying to say that they're the healthiest choice you could make. But I do see a lot of claims made about dairy products that seem a little unfounded to me.


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## Ivarson (Aug 28, 2002)

I agree totally with Jan B. We can blame the processed foods and refined sugars for our fat kids these days. I was born in 1971 and milk was my beverage of choice - I never wanted juice. My brother always wanted orange juice and drank lots and lots of it, and guess who was the "husky" kid? My brother, thanks to all the sugar in the juice. My son LOVES milk and always asks for that if I give him a choice between that and juice. He's healthy, smart and strong. The only time he avoided it was when we were in Mexico and he didn't like the taste of it there. He just drank water. People have been milking cows and drinking milk, making butter and cheese for centuries, and it has just been recently that we have this SURGE of obesity. Its not the dairy. Yes, of course, organic is better. I agree with that. I know for a fact that my son would not like soy milk's taste as much as cow's milk - I don't like it as much either!


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Hi,

I'm brand new at MDC, but wanted to add my 2 cents. Dr. Jay Gordon has an interesting FAQ on cheese:

http://www.drjaygordon.com/nutrition...d/danger03.htm


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## spu (Dec 6, 2002)

Can dairy also cause a skin rash if the baby is sensitive to it?

We've already eliminated eggs and strawberries, which helped, but when I started making Charlotte smoothies with milk, yogurt, and fruit, her rash came back. No red ring around her tushie, just a skin rash on her torso and legs - almost like chicken skin or goosebumps that wont go away.

susan


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

I had my husband read these replies and evertime there was a thread against cheese he was like "SEE" "SEE" LOL When it was pro cheese he was silent. LOL

Thanks everyone for you input appreciate it!!!

Steff


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spu*
Can dairy also cause a skin rash if the baby is sensitive to it?

We've already eliminated eggs and strawberries, which helped, but when I started making Charlotte smoothies with milk, yogurt, and fruit, her rash came back. No red ring around her tushie, just a skin rash on her torso and legs - almost like chicken skin or goosebumps that wont go away.

susan

Yes, dairy is a very common allergy in little ones







Both of my kids are allergic to it.

Kristi


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Just want to agree with Rainydaywoman about cheese and dairy. The way it is made now isn't healthy. There is PLENTY of calcium in other sources: almonds, sunflower seeds, garbanzo beanc, black beans, pinto beans, kale, collard greens, tofu, etc.

There's lots of books available on the subject, but for a simple, fun read check out Susan Powters book "Food", there is a section on milk, and all her stuff is very referenced. Saves some legwork, lol!

Kristi


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Little time, a few words:

Organic, raw milk, moderation


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## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

That was almost a haiku.









Sometimes we differ
On whether to give dairy
Jasmine blossoms fall


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## lovetomom (May 21, 2003)

Dr. Spock and Dr. Sears say that animal milk is for animals and not humans! There has got to be a reason.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Dr. Spock and Dr. Sears say that animal milk is for animals and not humans! There has got to be a reason."

But I dont think Sears is against dairy - just milk. He approves of yoghurt and cheese as far as I recall.

Dont know about Spock, have never read him.


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## Tink (Mar 7, 2004)

wow no clue! we don't do alot of dairy but my gals love string cheese (organic).they also love it when i take yogurt and freeze it,i also add some flax oil without them knowing!


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## maman_d'alex (Aug 31, 2003)

I think most people think cheese is bad because it is high in fat. But for young children, it is necessary for them to get a lot of fat for brain development. FOr toddlers, fat is a good thing-- rather, it is better to avoid empty calories like juice or other sugary snacks.

I don't think cheese makes children overweight-- I think juice, french fries, and sitting in front of the TV all day makes kids overweight.

I am huge consumer of cheese. It is how I get most of my protein and calcium. I love it. ANd so do kids.

Yep, probably better for you and your kids to eat organic, but if you have to choose organic foods due to cost, I would choose organic thin-skinned fruits and veggies over cheese. Fewer hormones get through in milk than pesticides get into fresh veggies.

My kid eats tons of cheese-- of course, we live in France, so he gets lots of cheeses, even the stinky kinds. ANything but Kraft singles and velveete and cheeze whiz I think if good for kids.


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## spu (Dec 6, 2002)

Isn't that amazing that Dr. Spock actually approves breastfeeding? I have his old old old book from when my mom was a new mom, and some of the things in there are soooo funny! The section on twins is a hoot. It says to have "the husband" construct a little wooden divider to put in the crib to keep them separated.

susan


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## Achelois72 (Aug 16, 2003)

About Dr. Sears:

He's definitely OK with cheese, yogurt, etc:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/3/T030500.asp

Cheese at 9-12 months, actually!


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

I don't think it's bad if given in moderation. We don't drink milk, but we do use cheese.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanB*
I would be very surprised to learn that a carrot has more calcium in it than a glass of milk. Now, if you want to compare a bunch of spinach, then we're talking.


I don't know if anyone has replied to this yet, but, there's no way a carrot has more calcium than a glass of milk. A GLASS of straight carrot juice has about 24 milligrams of calcium. A serving of spinach has 122 milligrams. A glass of milk is about 300 milligrams. Not that I think milk would be a good choice.:LOL

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/milk/whycal/sources.cfm

http://www.notmilk.com/


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

There is another thing I heard about cheese that I am not sure of and it is that, Cheese causes constipation when consumed on a daily bases. It actualy bounds you up, or slows down the function of the intestines.

Has anyone heard this before???







:
I had a pediatrician tell me once don't give your child milk. It wasn't meant for her to have. I just don't get it You use milk in a lot of stuff.
I just not sure what to think anymore. My children Love chocolate Milk. How do I take that away. I also heard chocolate milk is better than just plain milk.

What do you think??

Steph


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

I use rice milk most of the time when I cook. I have never given my kids milk. I really believe that human milk is for humans and cow's milk is for cows.

I've heard that - binding- about cheese, but never experienced it myself, nor have my kids.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

Okay, I was waaaaay off on the carrot thing









I wonder how much calcium from cows milk the human body can actually assimilate and use? Our systems have got to be much different from a baby cows.

I have recently eased up on our consumption of cheese and now we do occasionally as a "treat" have pizza with cheese on it. Its not a regular part of our diet and it is organic cheese. I do not think that very moderate amounts cheese is going to be horribly detrimental but eating lots of it I do believe will cause many problems like constipation (which I definitly agree with forumla fed babys can get very consitpated...but thats another topic







), wieght gain, colds and sickness when the body tries to detox to mucous and not to mention the pesticides and growth hormones effect on the body.

Steff,
If you make the choice not to give your kids chocolate milk and just quit giving it to them thats all you have to do...of course you should replace it with something like carob or raw cacao almond, rice or soy (if you use it) milk. Chocolate milk is not better than plain milk in any other way than the chocolate taste...processed chocolate is _very hard_ on the body and can do nothing but bad things for your health. This is an addiction I am adament that my daughter does not get...not all chocolate is bad though so its not like you cant have it. Raw Organic Cacao beans are real chocolate and I love them they are delicious, you have to sweeten them with honey or agave nector unlike processed sugary bad chocolate. It is a natural craving to have but we need to eat it from its natural source, hope that makes some sense and doesnt seem like I was jumping all over you because I am not meaning too at all. Just answering you question in your post is all...

sarah


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## Cranberry (Mar 18, 2002)

Yes, cheese can be very binding.

We don't eat cheese because we all have seasonal allergies, and milk and milk products just add to the congestion. Anyone with these kinds of allergies or asthma would benefit from reducing or eliminating cheese from their diet.

I am also concerned about the hormones given to cows, which can be avoided if you eat organic?


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

Organic cheeses should have no hormones in them. I prefer goat or sheeps cheese its easier to digest from what Ive read and it tastes soo good...but costs twice as much as cow cheese.

Its been a while now but when dd and I were on an all raw diet we used to eat raw cheese...that kind of scares me now...I'm thinking of trying some fermented cheese products like Kefir, anyone eat those??

sarah


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

rainys~mama

It is so strange the things you hear and what really holds true.
Thanks for answering.

I thought this thread died.
Steff


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *steff*
rainys~mama

It is so strange the things you hear and what really holds true.
Thanks for answering.


It is!! And that is my motivation for getting the little bit I have learned out there to hopefully help someone else.

sarah


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

I don't really have much to say. I'm only posting because I haven't found the "subscribe to this thread" button since the changes. I've been considering the dairy issue. Since being a nursing mon, I just feel bad for those cows who cannot have the nursing relationship with their little calves that I can with my dd...


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## Killick (Apr 15, 2004)

As with anything, moderation is the key when eating. This applies to dairy as well. One of the big problems with recommending that people not eat dairy from cows is the expense. Organic, raw, ect, is very expensive, and generally not covered for those who are on food assistance programs. For those of us who can afford it, buying organic milk is the best. It is also better tasting. But for those who can't, getting cow's milk is the next best thing.

Stef -
Cheese is binding. My DD loves cheese and bananas and one weekend went on a bender with these two items. We had to give her an entire cup of prune juice to loosen her up.

As for making kids fat, neither sugar or diary or fatty foods are the entire culprit. Kids sit for hours every day in front of a screen, either tv or computer, and that is a HUGE part of the problem. If they were to get their little behinds back outside and play, then that would at least help with the problem.

Keep in mind that moderation is the key. Even the occasional trip to McDonald's is okay, as long as it doesn't happen every single day or weekend.

Nicole


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

ooh I know it is so sad to see or think about mama cows being seperated from there babies so they cannot nurse them









Why is man so cruel to the earth and the beautiful creatures on it??

sarah


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

I agree that going to McD's on occasion in itself is not terribly detrimental BUT getting the taste for fast food in my opinion is...not to mention the marketing aimed towards children that goes on there and the cheap labor they use to produce the "happy" meal toys...my $.02 on McD's.
sarah


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:

My DD loves cheese and bananas and one weekend went on a bender with these two items. We had to give her an entire cup of prune juice to loosen her up.
Ahh my children Love both. But banana's really get them constipated. I can only buy them once in a while or they would eat them like crazy.

I believe everything has to have a balance.

The MCd's thing. I can't even stop eating fast food myself. I know I know, this is mainstream of me. But.... I don't want to let it go.









Steff


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## Mommy2Brittani (Nov 7, 2003)

Ok, This is probably going to get me flamed, but I live in a dairy community, where the farmers are all VERY adament about not treating their cows with growth hormones or any other things, and not using pesticides in their fields. That said, the only milk that I buy is locally made, and is covered by WIC. Even then, I probably only drink milk in my cereal, and my dd gets it with breakfast, and dinner. The rest of the time we eat other sources of calcium...esp. yogurt.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

No flaming here...I would so much rather know where my dairy products were coming from and that the farmers cared so much...I would feel that much better about eating it









sarah


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanB*
That was almost a haiku.









Sometimes we differ
On whether to give dairy
Jasmine blossoms fall


*snarf*

my dd loves cheese. i try to get the organic, no growth hormone stuff when we can afford it. and she eats it in moderation. i'm glad for her to get the fat. toddlers need fat. they need to get fat into their little brains to help them grow. i'm not ok with my dd eating only breastmilk and frozen blueberries-her fare of choice-so if she asks me for a bit of cheese, she gets it!! it's something to eat thats not me, lol.

i have to say i was a bit surprised by dr jay's spin on cheese. ita that the sheet stuff (and most of the block cheese available) is crap, but ALL cheese??


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

I wanted to write a haiku with smoked gouda in it but I coudn't.

We eat cheese at our home (no chicken or pork or beef though) - but we try to stay organic and to not rely upon it too much. The baby started eating cheese at about a year and a half when he snuck some smoked gouda during a camping trip...now it's his favorite. He won't eat cheddar or jack - prefers gouda or baby swiss no less. thank goodness for Trader Joe's.

I'll keep working on that haiku.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I am so tired of hearing the "cow's milk is for baby cows" argument.







There are plenty of valid scientific reasons for not drinking certain kinds of milk - hormones, antibiotics, etc. So what if it's for baby cows?? We eat meat - the flesh of animals is not made specifically for us to eat, it's there for the animal's benefit. Apples are there to make more apple trees, not so we can eat them per se. Just because mama cows make milk for their babies does not automatically mean we can't drink it too! This argument is just intellectual shorthand, a catchy little blurb that sounds good but has no real meaning. I know I am going off on this but really, I am just so tired of hearing this phrase.


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

:LOL
Steff


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

The nutritional make up of cow milk is specifically designed to make baby cows grow into big ol' adult cows...mama milk is for little human babies...there is a difference there.

And eating meat is a whole other issue...which I dont think is a good idea to get into.

Fruit was made for us to eat...and so that we would have more the seeds are spread through us eating them...this evolution story about fruits ingenious plan of propagation is ridiculous!









sarah


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I am so tired of hearing the "cow's milk is for baby cows" argument.









Well, I think what makes this statement so important is the fact that cows are RUMINANTS.

Yes, they are mammals, but the digestive system of a cow could hardly be more different from a human being's. Cows have four stomachs, one of which is loaded with vast quantities of very specific bacteria that aid in the digestion of their diet (which is basically cellulose). Cows also chew cud as part of this process. Just consider this: cows weigh what...1000 lbs? and can sustain themselves entirely on a diet of cellulose. If you had to live on cellulose alone, you would literally starve to death. The human digestive system is incapable of digesting and extracting any nutrients from cellulose.

So just imagine the "superpowers" of the calf digestive system, the sorts of complex proteins and strong fibres that they can break down, and then imagine the content of the MILK that has evolved to sustain them and aid in the development of this digestive system.

Okay, with that said: I have milk (we switched to organic/locally produced several months ago) in my cereal and my tea, and in some cooking. I have rarely drank it (I"m a water person). We actually don't eat much cheese, but I'm quite happy with having organic cheese as part of our diet. As most people said, all things in moderation.

Funny thing is: I have tried "other" milks (soy, rice, almond) and find them quite unpalatable, probably b/c I am just so used to reg. milk...however, DH recently came home with a whole bunch of soy milk stuff b/c there was a huge sale and DD seems to just love it, so we're gonna go with that as an alternative.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Piglet, you make a good point but I don't think your conclusion necessarily follows the premise. The fact is people *can* live on cow's milk, if not a cow's diet. We're not talking about babies here - yes, a baby should be fed human milk because that is food designed specifically for babies, regardless of what other foods are designed for. Once we get beyond the baby stage, though, anything's fair game so look out!







We're not called omnivores for nothing! :LOL

I have heard that one of the reasons Hindi people worship cows is because a family can stay alive in the desert for a year if they have a cow, by drinking its blood and milk and then finally eating the meat when it dies. Just an interesting aside.

I think if you can digest it and you like it, drink it. If not, then don't. But I don't think it's a matter of "should" or "should not", except on an individual level.


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## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

My dd seemed to get a rash on her belly, heiney and sometimes legs from milk/dairy. She will be 4 in September and I haven't seen the rash in a few months, despite her eating cheese and yogurt (she rarely drinks milk). There may be other allergens causing hers, but I did identify dairy in the form of cheese and yogurt for sure when she was about 15 mths.
I honestly did not do too much about it, b/c it came and went and there were only a few occasions where it bothered her (though it looked terrible!). I tried to limit dairy but not strictly. And even when she went a stretch of time with no dairy she would sometimes still break out in the rash (another allergen causing that one, but I did not find out what it was). I did pinpoint that she broke out in it everytime she ate dairy when she was 1, and then as she got older (2), she broke out for sure when she ate a fair amount of it, but small amounts were fine.
Now she has pretty much free range to dairy and no rash, maybe she has grown out of it! I have also seen other kids with an eczema type rash due to dairy. And, I myself get eczema and it worsens when I consume more dairy.
So, sorry to be so long-winded, but there is my take on dairy and allergies!
Sara


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

famous: I don't disagree with you. I don't think there is anything wrong with adults drinking cows milk from a dietary perspective, I just think it's wildly inappropriate for babies.

interesting tidbit: richard dawkins, famous evolutionary biologist, claims that lactose intolerance was once the "norm" and that lactose *tolerance* was a mutation that became successfully selected for by cultures where agriculture took hold, particularly those who raised cows, goats, etc. People who could digest the milk of these animals had some nutritional advantages, especially with the more-limited diet of agricultural based peoples compared to hunter-gatherer types.

rainysmom: not sure what you were getting at, but it actually IS a wonderful mode of propagation, and it's no wonder fruits became so successful.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

I meant that I believe seed bearing fruit and other plants were put on the earth for us...I dont believe they just evolved into what they are to propagate themselves and I do think it is an amazing and beautiful process









sarah


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

I don't know I have always drank milk. I even craved it at times.

Why do they say milk is good for the bones and a good source of calcium. I mean they have said this for how many years and all of a sudden things just change.

It's bad for you now! ??

I don't know so many things that were good for you at one time are bad for you now. Maybe the scientists are just bored and start coming up with new things to make life more complicated.







hehehe









Steff


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Piglet, that Richard Dawkins thing is interesting. Not to totally derail this thread, but what evidence does he present to support this? It seems like it would be hard to prove which came first, lactose tolerance or agriculture, kwim? Do you remember if you read it in one of his books? Just curious.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

famous: I screwed up. It wasn't Dawkins, it was Matt Ridley (author of the Red Queen) in his book: "Genome: the autobiography of a species in 23 chapters".

It wasn't his study, but he refers to it in his book. It's a fun read: each chapter focuses on one chromosome and tells a story related to that chromosome. Don't ask me which one the lactose tolerance gene fell on, lol! But there are references (it's packed away right now, so I can't check on that for you). If you can pick up the book at your library, you can find it.

steff: calcium IS good for the bones, and cow's milk (like any milk) is a great source of calcium. it's not that people are "changing their minds" about milk. The real source of the "milk is so good for you" message is the dairy industry.

Remember: cows milk is not popular here b/c it is the best foreign-species milk, it's b/c it is the cheapest and most convenient source given our love of meat, etc...this country was already set up to raise cattle (huge tracts of land, etc). So raising dairy cows was simple to set up. In many countries, people just don't drink cows milk b/c they don't have the resources to support a large scale dairy industry (nor do they seem to have figured out - insert sarcasm here - how to cram hundreds of cows into a small barn and never give them access to grass, thus increasing productivity/land size even more).

Don't confuse Science with marketing power of the Dairy Council.


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## Trishy (Oct 15, 2002)

_Moving to Nutrition and Good Eating._


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## steff (Apr 7, 2004)

ahhhh, I see.









Steff


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

About the calcium thing and milk no longer being good for you and why do we have so many women suffering from osteoporosis --

I think that other aspects of our diet make it difficult for us to absorb calcium and draws it out of our bones. I don't think milk is causing the problem.

I probably shouldn't bother to post because it's late and so I'm not going to look up anything to back me up, but I've heard this in a few different places and I could see the logic in it. Not that I'm great with logic. I just don't think it makes sense to point fingers at milk when people have been thriving on it for so long.

Oh, I think also that osteoporosis rates increasing has a lot to do with women not breastfeeding (the hormones have something to do with it) and being sedentary (your bones need exercise, too, or they loose mass). Again, I'm just reiterating what I've heard that makes sense.

Off to bed....


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)

The large amount of animal protein and fat in milk is what prevents the body from properly asboring the calcium and drinking large amounts of milk actually leaches calcium from the body.... the countries with the higher consumption of milk actually are the ones with the higher rate of osteoporosis (cant spell)

the dairy council has been the ones spewing milk is good for you for obvious reasons... these days big business doesnt care about your health and care more about the almighty dollar....

ok theres my .02 now time to drag myself off to school...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

cheese, like wine, is a gift of god. (or nature, if you prefer.)

piglet, wasn't 'genome' an awesome book? highly recommended! (i have seen that hypothesis in several books now & who knows what came first; it is my background however, & cheese makes me feel good.)

raw organic cheese will not be such an anomoly if we buy more of it & support local farms.

and lastly, re: coloring- wtf is wrong with annatto? call it an herb & put it in 'natural healing' and mdc'ers will be all over it, but make cheese orange & it's the devil's hindmilk.

suse


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Dairy is not good for me or my kids since we have allergy and lactose issues. Not to say the occasional organic cheese doesn't find its way into my fridge







Milk, never, but only because I find the whole concept uke
Anything in moderation is usually what we use in my home, with cheese, sweets, etc.
I do find though, that most of us Americans have "moderation issues" with cheese...is it addictive or what? Usually kids meals in restaurants are either fried meats or cheese meals.
Downsides of cheese on a non-ethical standpoint: it is constipating, harder to digest than veggie forms of calcium, and in the US usually coupled with too much salt, unhealthy fats, and processed foods. If I or my kids want a little cheese, I couple it with veggies or fruit and in small amounts.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
cheese, like wine, is a gift of god. (or nature, if you prefer.)

You made my mouth water. When we lived in Cambridge, MA we were literally right behind an Italian deli with their own cheese cavern. They had hundreds of varieties and I loved going there to sample their "cheese of the day". DH and I would often make dinner out of a fresh baguette, a wedge of Brie (the real thing! like butter!) and a home made salad, washed down with a nice cabarnet...YUM!

Good cheese is, as you say, like good wine - one of life's simple pleasures!

Unfortunately, what passes for cheese in this country is often rather disgusting - you'd be amazed at how many Americans look at me sideways when I ask if the cheese on this menu item is real cheese or processed cheese - I don't think they realize that Kraft slices aren't REAL cheese, lol. And let's not even talk about cheese-in-a-can. :yuck And what's worse: cheese here is so expensive!!


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## lolabelle (Mar 9, 2004)

My husband and I have been dairy free for almost 5 years and it's one of the best things we've done for our health.

The Dairy Industry is a very powerful lobby and has sold the American public a bill of goods. When the Food Pyramid was first developed it was originally a pie shape with the pie slices indicating the portion of each particular food group. Of course dairy only recieved a small slice but to make it less obvious and in a way, play a mind game with the public, they lobbied for the pyramid so even if they recieve a small portion it is near the top, giving the impression of being more important.That is not why we gave dairy up, however...I just think it's interesting!

Since giving dairy up our seasonal allergies are pretty much non-existant, our face "baby fat" is gone and so is the phlem...BTW, milk is mucus producing...so at the least don't give it to a child with a cold.

We haven't given our ds dairy either and he is almost two...and very bright! My sister-in-law used that reasoning for giving her children dairy too....they need it for brain development! Not true. There are good fats for brain development that won't put a child at risk for diabetes, asthma, allergies and heart disease. My son eats an avocado almost daily, olive oil added to some foods and a Carlson's fish or cod liver oil...which I have slacked on lately and need to order fish oil to replace the cod since the warmer weather has arrived.

We went off of dairy for many reasons already listed. What started my interest is that I have an IBD and I was looking for ways to improve my digestion. After researching and then showing that to my husband, we both dropped it from our diet. Besides better digestion, some other reasons that come to mind are: the naturally occuring hormone present in milk, IGF-1 (which if you don't know much about you should educate yourself on) , BGH used to promote milk production (not all farmers use this but because of Monsanto and the other chemical producers, they aren't allowed to post it on their packaging if they don't, reasoning that the consumer might come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing); the amount of pus allowed by the gov't in a gallon of milk disgust me, diseases that cows carry that aren't destroyed by the paturization temp set in the US and if it was higher it would destroy anything left of the nutritional value already destroyed by present paturization; the fact of weaning babies from the breast of it's mother to, in around about way, a cow's is a weird concept to me;the fact that cow milk is designed to turn a fifty pound calf into a three hundred pound cow in six months...so it is obviously not designed for human consumption and not only does a calf have four stomachs, it also has nine feet of intestines, as oppposed to humans, who have 27 feet of intestines; and quite simply our digestive enzymes are not capable of breaking down a food that is designed to nuture the the young of another species. And about calcium. Cows get their calcium from grass...we get it from green leafy veggies, broccolli, tahini, and the calcium in cows milk is much coarser than ours and which makes it harder to absorb. And the protein in cows milk makes our blood acidic and in order to neutralize this, calcium is pulled from our bones. So milk really doesn't strengthen our bones. Infact, the opposite may be true. The more I have learned, the more unappetizing it has become. Knowledge is power.

Once I gave up milk...which I was never one to drink a glass of but I had cheese on about everything (it takes 10 pds of milk to make a pound of cheese) ...my Mother told me that a farmer in Alabama where I grew up, told her when I was young that he would never feed a child that poison.

Oh, and about the chocolate milk question...it is not that the chocolate makes it more nutritious...it is thought or used to be anyway,that the chocolate makes the lactose more digestable.

Don't take our word for it...research it yourself and come to a conclusion you and your husband are comfortable with.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I don't think they realize that Kraft slices aren't REAL cheese, lol.

We always called it cheese slices or processed cheese, knowing it wasn't real. But then, as an adult, I had some recipes that called for American cheese. It took me a while to figure out that it meant the processed cheese slices. It cracks me up, for some reason.


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## lovetomom (May 21, 2003)

I have a question for lolabelle (that is off topic and I apologize in advance),
When your child is weaned (or was weaned) what beverages will (did) you give him? Do you think rice, soy or goats milk is appropriate? I am in total agreement about dairy and also am a proud mother of a dairy free child (other than my own dairy of course), however, I am having trouble moving forward on weaning (she's 21m) because I am not sure what to wean her on to.

I'd love to know what your DS's diet looks like?

xo
lovetomom


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## dot2dot (Nov 14, 2003)

I have been following this thread with interest as my son is just starting to eat more solids, and cheese is one of the foods he will eat. But I wanted to respond to this:

Quote:

Yes, they are mammals, but the digestive system of a cow could hardly be more different from a human being's. Cows have four stomachs, one of which is loaded with vast quantities of very specific bacteria that aid in the digestion of their diet (which is basically cellulose). Cows also chew cud as part of this process. Just consider this: cows weigh what...1000 lbs? and can sustain themselves entirely on a diet of cellulose. If you had to live on cellulose alone, you would literally starve to death. The human digestive system is incapable of digesting and extracting any nutrients from cellulose.

Quote:

So just imagine the "superpowers" of the calf digestive system, the sorts of complex proteins and strong fibres that they can break down, and then imagine the content of the MILK that has evolved to sustain them and aid in the development of this digestive system.
Claves have something called an esophageal groove in their rumen (the compartment with all the bacteria for breaking down the grasses they eat). When calves suck, this groove closes, allowing the milk to bypass the rumen so that it can be digested without being eaten up by those bacteria. If this didn't happen, they would not get the benefits of their milk but of the less beneficial (at that point in their lives) bacteria. I just always thought this was a really neat part of cow development and had to share.







Those little calf tummies work great!


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## lolabelle (Mar 9, 2004)

Hi lovetomom...I weaned ds completely at 13mos. because of a flare of my Crohn's disease and was having trouble keeping weight on an needed to go on more medication.

I weaned him to rice milk...Imagine Rice Dream Enriched. It is sweet but it's naturally sweet from the brown rice and not added sugar. It is also organic...I think so anyway! Anyway, I thought it was a good transition since breastmilk is also naturally sweet and he took to it readily. I also added flaxseed oil (1/2 teaspoon per 4 ou. I think would be good) to add some good fat to it. Soy milk has added sugar. He is 21 months and rarely ask for it now and he drinks mostly water...I do give him calcium enriched organic orange juice some mornings when he ask, but it is watered down so much, more than half, that it is mostly water. I don't think it is necessary to wean to another "milk" as long as the baby is getting fat and calcium from other food sources and vitamin D from the sun in the summer and cod fish oil in the winter months...Carlson's is great and DS loves it. The rice milk just made weaning easier.

Breakfast is usually:
Cascadian Farms Purely O's or Oatio's instead of Cherrio's or Rice Crunchem's cereals with rice milk, Omega 3 enriched eggs, and occasionally Ezekial raisin bread toasted etc...He usually has a cereal first and then an egg or two an hour later

Snack:
He eats one or two organic apples a day,bananas, oranges, kiwis...fruit in general. I tried soy yogurt which I love but he didn't. I was going to try goat yogurt (still in the fridge and probably expired by now) but I haven't gotten around to it. I haven't given him any cheese subs as a snack because they are pretty much nutritionally void and loaded with salt, but I do use it sparingly in recipes like mexican lasagna and I and DH eat an Amy's soy cheese pizza occasionally so he is bound to have some of that too.

Lunch and dinner:
Avacodo was his first solid food and he loves it and gets one almost every day for the good fat, Turkey...almost always Boarshead brand which doesn't have a lot of adidtives and perservatives, organic baked chicken, occasionally wild alaskan salmon, Free Range Turkey burger without the bun, turkey meatloaf, sweet potatoes, broccolli, green beans....really any and all veggies but we don't do corn yet, brown rice, Casbah brand rice pilaf's...and you don't have to add the whole packet of seasoning, cous cous,
quinwa (sp?), beans...LOVES BEANS especially black, lentils, canned Walnut Acres soup or Amy's that I thicken with organic tri-colored abc noodles so that it is easier for him to eat, marinara sauce with pasta (usually spinach, tomato, or spelt pasta except when at a restaurant) occasionally organic oven fries but not fried at restaurants, I am sure I am forgetting some items but you get the jist.

My goal is to help him develop a taste for healthy foods and I have read that a person develops his taste for foods by the age of three. So I am holding off on the sugary sweets and breads until them...That is my plan anyway. He has had the Ezekial breads toasted and I am okay with that, and he did have an egg this morning a wanted it like daddies on an english muffin so I did give him that but it was a natural unbleached unbromulated white wheat flour muffin with out additives and perservatives and I don't plan on making that an every day kind of treat. A big treat for him right now is a Newman's Own organic Pretzel rod with the salt scrapped off!

We use the rice milk now just over cereal and when I need a milk sub for baking or cooking, I use Silk soy milk (or creamer when a recipe calls for cream or half and half) except for things that are sweet...sweet things I use Rice milk ie.pancakes.

Feel free PM me if you want any other specifics. Another good source is www.Marilu.com boards...the main one. It is all health concious, dairy free (some vegan) wonderful, helpful people. Marilu Henner also has a cookbook, Healthy Kids, that I have. I think it will be more helpful when my son is a little older.


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Now this is totally off topic (sorry!), but wanted to mention something to lolabelle. I was dx with ulcerative colitis when my younger dd was about 15 months old. I found a really great book with a litany of natural remedies for IBD & wanted to mention it to you in case you haven't read it. It is called "Listen to your Gut" by Jini Patel Thompson. The author also was dx with Crohn's disease & has been symptom-free for 10 yrs by using alternative medicines. I used a combo of Robert's formula (which she doesn't mention in the book), and l-glutamine (which she does mention) & had a total remission w/in a week. I have been symptom free for almost 3 years now. Anyways, sorry for the sidebar - it is just a great book if you need in the future!


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