# Talk to me about Love & Logic



## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

A child development friend introduced me to Love & Logic last year (when my DS1 turned 2), and I have used it a little bit. However, the more I am looking in the GD section of this forum, the more I see that I have been parenting in a way that might not be ideal. And -- the Love and Logic (even when we are consistant for months) is not "working" anymore.

We started using it to help with the constant crying of our high needs child. Our kids are 18 months apart, so when the newborn came, the 18 month old's constant crying was putting us over the edge. So, using the Love and Logic approach, we said:

"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.









Please tell me your thoughts on Love & Logic and and what you like about it and what you don't. Nearly every school district I know encourages parents to use it (not that that means anything! lol!)








Oh, and please don't flame me for using Love & Logic....Thanks.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

I haven't read the book, but there is a long thread in the adoption forum on it.

I can see how that phrase would get really annoying "If you are tired..." Crying doesn't always equal tired, so there isn't much "logic" to it. It seems like logic would be "Your crying is making the baby upset, or your crying is hurting my ears, so if you keep doing it you will have to go in your room."

I don't know what else you've tried but a Time In might be what's needed, or some Super Special Big Boy Alone Time Without the Baby.


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## lesmac (Dec 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raw Vegan Mama* 
A So, using the Love and Logic approach, we said:

"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.










I have a couple of friends who swear by the L&L...but they do sometimes say that it's difficult to come up w/ the "logic" part of it, especially in the moment. The most I've taken from that book is "you d/n have to wear your coat, but pls take it w/ you in case it turns cold."

I agree w/ the PP. I'm not seeing crying = tired. (But I d/n live w/ you, and you are his mother...)

This is only my (very humble) opinion, but he may be telling you to stop saying that b/c it's not his reality. He's crying, he's not tired, but you're telling him he is.

I also avoid "mirror" statements (Harvey Karp stuff): LO says "I'm tired!" and starts screaming. The response "You're tired! ARGH!" d/n really demonstrate your understanding to LO, and, quite honestly, I think LO is thinking that you're mocking (rather than mimicking) him.

We use "Your crying (around here it's screaming) is rattling Mommy's brain. You need to stop or you will be removed from the dinner table/Mommy will find a more quiet place to read/etc."

Good luck.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raw Vegan Mama* 
"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.









I haven't read the book, but my mother used to say exactly that line. I hated it! It felt like she didn't care why I was crying at all, and was just threatening me to make me stop. I completely understand why your son doesn't want you to say it. It sounds like more logic than love to me.


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

I think you all are so right!

The L&L people & supporters claimed the phrase would change the behavior, but it really didn't. Plus -- I never realized how insensitive it was.







I think the statement "more logic than love" is fitting, but now I am thinking it is not logical at all. Just because a child is crying, doesn't mean they are tired.

I feel like such crap for ignoring my DS's feelings for so long.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi, my two girls are 16 months apart, and I don't know what you mean exactly by "high needs" toddler, but my two year old is very energetic and cries a LOT too. I stay home with her and her 10 month old sister and the oldest seems to be very needy. It can get SO frustrating with the constant crying, whining and tantrums. I tried the logic thing and it only lasted a couple of days. Now, I just try and figure out why she is crying. Is she tired? Hungry? Hurt? Sick? The other day I ran through the list and it turned out the poor thing was just thirsty! (Ok, now I feel like bad mom, but I was swamped with a lot to do and forgot about refilling the water cup! Oops!) Anyway, it seems to be working ok, I wouldn't even try L&L, but that is just my opinion.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Well, I was recently told that the L&L way to get kids to pick up their rooms is to tell them that they don't get dinner until they do. And listening to the tapes once I heard them suggest to tell an older child that thus and so would be done by the end of the day and to wake them up just before midnight to do it if it doesn't get done before they go to bed.

I find the approach to be adversarial and sometimes passive-aggressive. And totally icky.


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks to the GD section of MDC, I don't feel that I will not be using Love and Logic now or in the future!

I feel so silly for listening to my friend, and not doing tons of reseach on it. She is very mainstream, but I thought with her child development background, she would have a good solution that wasn't what I grew up with (hitting, spanking, yelling, guilting, embarrasing, etc. the child). I guess I was just too tired with the baby to figure out a better way.


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklefairy* 
I find the approach to be adversarial and sometimes passive-aggressive. And totally icky.

Looking back at the parents I know that do L&L, I think you are right on. it is VERY passive-aggressive, and I don't want to raise my kids to be that way.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raw Vegan Mama* 
The L&L people & supporters claimed the phrase would change the behavior, but it really didn't.

That's the problem with many "parenting techniques", they focus on the child's behaviour instead of what is going on inside the child or between the people involved.

So from what I have heard about it here, I wouldn't use that book either.

Don't feel too bad about it, it's impossible to be a perfect mother all the time. We live and we learn!


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## Cabrnay (Aug 17, 2006)

We use Love and Logic. I think it's all in how you use it. It is hard to deal in the heat of the moment.

I have never woken my kids up at midnight. I have said. "do you want to pick up your toys or should mommy?" When she says Mommy, I pick up the toys and she doesn't get them back for a few days. She almost always picks them up now. There is an extreme group of L&L people that do rather bizarre "logical" consequences.

I also ask if she is going to make a "happy choice or a sad choice" when she is throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I will do when she makes a sad choice as she always chooses happy.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

Don't be hard on yourself!! You are doing the right thing which is seeking info and strategies that will help your home be happy and peaceful. This one isn't working so a new strategy might be in order. I found dipping into Becoming the Parent You Want To Be, is nice as it talks more about how to go about formulating choices rather than the specifics of the issues. I can't recommend Raising Your Spirited Child enough, in fact I am about to re-read it. I am also reading a book by Diane Loomas which is called something like 12 Things Every Child Wants Their Parent to Know. It is very gentle and inspiring with lots of tips without being a 'style'.

I honestly think that the best thing you can do as a parent is be authentic. If you don't feel something suits you and your child do something else. Even if I find a strategy works a) I know it won't last forever and b) I won't follow all of the 'school' it comes from. I just don't find a lot of ideas resonate with what I feel my family should be. I also recognise my real limits, what is and isn't possible for me.

It sounds like you might need to work out your dc's temperament (Spirited Child has all that info) so that you can anticipate his needs and the issues that might come up.

Good luck and be kind to yourself. Remember that you are learning and growing just as much as your child is


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

There are parts of L&L I am okay with- such as giving your kids choices- I was a nanny for 2 year old twins- I asked them which shirt they wanted, or what choice of lunch, or do you want to leave the playground in five or ten minutes. I think you can take some good out of many parenting techniques- but I have yet to find *one* that is the do all, end all of parenting. You need to find what works for you and your family.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Not a fan of Love and Logic...although it has been an improvement for some of the moms I know who used punitive Time Outs for every little infraction. But some of the "logic" doesn't make sense to me as it's been explained to me by the folks I know who use it....but maybe they are confused.

Anyway, just wondering how old your LO is now? My DD was a high needs toddler and it turns out she had some special needs that needed addressing....constant screaming sounds a bit out of the norm to me for simply high needs - have you ever had your LO evaluated by a developmental pediatrician to make sure you aren't missing some other issues with him? Not saying there is anything especially wrong - but I know it was somewhat of a relief to me to realize that my DD did indeed have some special issues that could never be addressed by "discipline"....

good luck
peace,
robyn


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cabrnay* 
We use Love and Logic. I think it's all in how you use it. It is hard to deal in the heat of the moment.

I have never woken my kids up at midnight. I have said. "do you want to pick up your toys or should mommy?" When she says Mommy, I pick up the toys and she doesn't get them back for a few days. She almost always picks them up now. There is an extreme group of L&L people that do rather bizarre "logical" consequences.

I also ask if she is going to make a "happy choice or a sad choice" when she is throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I will do when she makes a sad choice as she always chooses happy.

I would feel just fine about that if she knew what to expect if she wanted mommy to do it.

This was not an "extreme" group thing -- the waking a kid up was right off the L&L disc that I borrowed. It was suggested for teenagers.

Why is it not okay to be sad?


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

I wouldn't like to be treated that way, so I don't use it. I also think they misuse the phrase "natural consequences." A better book is How to Talk so that Kids listen and How to Listen so that Kids will Talk.


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## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

I took a L&L class at our daughter's school. We quit after I got into a "debate" with the teacher ("facilitator") about developmentally appropriate behavior and discipline. It started after we watched a video of the founder/leader of L&L, recommending locking a 2y.o. in his room for having a tantrum! The whole thing had been too punitive. It annoyed me to be constantly sitting there, listening to parents being told (and believing) stuff I knew was wrong and hurtful. I wanted to scream, "just because something gets a child to 'fall in line', doesn't mean it's good or right."


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that when a baby is crying they need to be held, especially when you have displaced them with a new and in their eyes more perfect baby. It seems like he has a need and he is tired of you meeting his need by isolating him. When you have kids you have crying and when you ignore them you have resentment and more crying. If you don't want to hear so much crying be proactive about giving him the time he needs rather than just the time you prefer to give him and do it in fun ways. Try to remember that while the new baby is a blessing to you it is a curse to him and he is so young that he needs to see in tangible ways that you love and care for him, hearing you say it is not enough especially when your actions tell him you don't care for him.

While some of the Love and logic ideas are pretty good for much older children in regards to taking responsibility I don't think that it is a good program on the whole. I especially despise their advice that parents should teach kids to obey on command like a German Shepard dog by smacking them around.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raw Vegan Mama* 
Thanks to the GD section of MDC, I don't feel that I will not be using Love and Logic now or in the future!

I feel so silly for listening to my friend, and not doing tons of reseach on it. She is very mainstream, but I thought with her child development background, she would have a good solution that wasn't what I grew up with (hitting, spanking, yelling, guilting, embarrasing, etc. the child). I guess I was just too tired with the baby to figure out a better way.










I understand (((RVM))) Mine are a little farther apart in age (2 years) but I definitely made a lot of "surviving overwhelm-ment" decisions that I wish I could go back and do differently. (Mine were mostly of the permissive kind.) We do the best we can with what we have at the time, and then we make amends, forgive ourselves, and move on.


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## luvmytwo (Nov 20, 2001)

My husband and I took this course and I found it to be somewhat helpful. Mostly in giving the child choices to choose from. The part that stressed me out was the letting your child decide for themselves when to go to bed (staying in their room at bedtime going to bed when "they" wanted to), when to clean their rooms etc. I wasn't sure if this was actually teaching the kids anything. They would just have a messy room and be tired. Would giving them this much control really help them learn?


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
Not a fan of Love and Logic...although it has been an improvement for some of the moms I know who used punitive Time Outs for every little infraction. But some of the "logic" doesn't make sense to me as it's been explained to me by the folks I know who use it....but maybe they are confused.

Anyway, just wondering how old your LO is now? My DD was a high needs toddler and it turns out she had some special needs that needed addressing....constant screaming sounds a bit out of the norm to me for simply high needs - have you ever had your LO evaluated by a developmental pediatrician to make sure you aren't missing some other issues with him? Not saying there is anything especially wrong - but I know it was somewhat of a relief to me to realize that my DD did indeed have some special issues that could never be addressed by "discipline"....

good luck
peace,
robyn

DS1 is now 3 and DS2 is now 1. Things are much different now. It wasn't constant screaming from DS1 once DS2 was born, it was him crying. He was very upset with his life changing and me not being there for him at every moment, as it had been. We have not used the L&L since january-ish, as it wasn't working anymore...


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## Ell-Bell (Nov 16, 2002)

Don't beat yourself up! Parenting choices are tough. We all do things and later think..."That probably wasn't the best way to handle it..." We're all on these boards because we care so much about our kids, right?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cabrnay* 
We use Love and Logic. I think it's all in how you use it. It is hard to deal in the heat of the moment.

I have never woken my kids up at midnight. I have said. "do you want to pick up your toys or should mommy?" When she says Mommy, I pick up the toys and she doesn't get them back for a few days. She almost always picks them up now. There is an extreme group of L&L people that do rather bizarre "logical" consequences.

I also ask if she is going to make a "happy choice or a sad choice" when she is throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I will do when she makes a sad choice as she always chooses happy.

See, that sounds like manipulation to me. You offered Mommy to pick up the toys as one option, but when she picks that, she's punished.









DS is only 2 so we haven't had any behavioral problems to deal with yet- so this is all theoretical for me! I think we need to pick and choose from whatever methods and books resonate with us. I love the Unconditional Parenting approach, Connected Parenting, etc. The UP discussion group I'm on recently had a thread about L&L and there were a lot of negative comments about it. I have a friend at work that has been to several workshops and next week we are trading books- My Unconditional Parenting for her Love and Logic. Should make for interesting discussion!








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## rosie_plus_one (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I especially despise their advice that parents should teach kids to obey on command like a German Shepard dog *by smacking them around*.

(Emphasis added by me)

I've taken several Love & Logic classes and think very highly of the strategy, when used appropriately.

I have NEVER heard mention of "smacking them around." Can you share with me where that comes from in any of their literature?

That said, I think too many people think that they can begin the Love and Logic techniques on Day 1 and they will work flawlessly. They will not.

In the example of the toys being taken away if Mommy has to pick them up, this is a consequence that must be outlined ahead of time. They talk about setting up positive expectations before each event - ie - "Dinner is going to be done in about 10 minutes, but we need to have your toys put away first. Mommy gets to keep any toys that she picks up. Do you want to pick up your toys, or do you want Mommy to do it?" This is not developmentally appropriate for a two year old.

I think that something that gets overlooked a little is the emphasis on being really engaged with your child, and facilitating learning sessions as much as possible. I think it's similar to the emotion coaching that "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" talks about.

I really think a lot of parents can benefit from their ideas, and I would be happy to help anyone work through any problems they are having if they want to try some of the L&L techniques.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/rue_kream2.html

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=logic

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=logic


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm a strong opponent of most of the practices in Love and Logic for Early Childhood. I find them to be mean, manipulative, and not respectful of children's developmental needs.

I'm surprised that this book was recommended by your "child development" friend. I've worked as a teacher and Early Childhood Specialist and find the practices to go against everything I've learned and do in my work.

While there may be strategies that are more gentle, the majority aren't.


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/rue_kream2.html

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=logic

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=logic

Thank you so much for these links. I searched for "Love & Logic" on MDC, but got nothing !


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## maemaesmama (Mar 19, 2004)

I was told about L&L by a friend as well. Of course I came straight to MDC to check it out! I see that I would likley be turned off, but this puts me back at square one. I need book suggestions! So what do you use for parenting fall backs. I have a style of mothering, but in times such as these for our family (moving, divorce,4 kids getting older, etc) I need to be sure I remain true to my beliefs which I find harder and harder under so much stress. I wish I could say, oh yeah this is how to react. Or sit down with my parenting book to recenter.


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## Ell-Bell (Nov 16, 2002)

Well, I love Unconditional Parenting, the DVD is great, too. I am currently reading Parenting from the Inside Out, and really like it so far. I have also heard good things about the new book by Mary Sheed Kurchinka, Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles: Winning for a Lifetime. Oh, and Playful Parenting is also on my list of good reads.

You also might browse Yahoo Groups for groups on Unconditional Parenting. I am in a local UP yahoo group and it's REALLY great. People share stories and struggles and there are always great words of wisdom and pieces of advice.


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Did you know that in the book, Teaching with Love and Logic, twice the author tells about when he hit students in two separate incidences, three years apart. He prefaces with, "I'm certainly not proud of it," and later says something about admiring teachers who never get frustrated with students.

I just can't believe it. Does anyone find it the tiniest bit acceptable to hit a student? This author discusses how neither student was the type to "suffer in silence" and he got in trouble with the principal. Yes, the same principal both times.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie_plus_one* 
In the example of the toys being taken away if Mommy has to pick them up, this is a consequence that must be outlined ahead of time. They talk about setting up positive expectations before each event - ie - "Dinner is going to be done in about 10 minutes, but we need to have your toys put away first. Mommy gets to keep any toys that she picks up. Do you want to pick up your toys, or do you want Mommy to do it?" This is not developmentally appropriate for a two year old.

So, why, exactly does "Mommy get to keep any toys that she picks up?" They're not her toys. And she's the one who wants the room clean.

Eating dinner can be done whether toys are picked up or not. There's no relationship there other than a preference by the mother.

Which is fine. But maybe the adult thing to do is own that and not give the kid a false choice that might end up in her having her belongings taken from her by the person she's supposed to trust the most in this world.

I mean, I'm sure it "works." But I don't guess it's fostering a whole lot of good feelings for each other.

If I leave my windows down on my car and my husband notices it on his way in from work, imagine how I'd feel if he said something like that? "I'll put the windows up, but then I get to keep the car."







What a crappy way to offer help.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie_plus_one* 

I have NEVER heard mention of "smacking them around." Can you share with me where that comes from in any of their literature?

I got an older version of L&L from the library, and they talked about spanking. It said something like- if you are going to spank, make sure you do it hard enough to hurt. If it doesn't hurt, you may as well not spank at all.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:

I got an older version of L&L from the library, and they talked about spanking. It said something like- if you are going to spank, make sure you do it hard enough to hurt. If it doesn't hurt, you may as well not spank at all.
Interesting. I have what I believe is the newest edition of the book (put out June 06) and it's decidedly anti-spank from what I can remember while reading it.

For me it's a situation of "take-what-works-for-you-and-leave-the-rest". I've found the idea of offering two acceptable alternatives a VERY useful concept in dealing with my toddler and preschooler, for example. But never in a million years would I use some of his convoluted plans--for instance to make my older children walk home for fighting in the car.

I think some of it is age-dependent too. For instance, if it's cold outside, I consider it MY responsibility to get a coat for my 3 yr old. With my 5 yr old, I'll insist he bring the coat but give him the option of wearing it. At some point, I figure my kid will be old enough to decide for himself whether or not to bring it.

Quote:

We use "Your crying (around here it's screaming) is rattling Mommy's brain. You need to stop or you will be removed from the dinner table/Mommy will find a more quiet place to read/etc."
Here it's "Your screaming isn't making our home a happy place to be. You can choose to do it in your room or you can stop and stay out here."


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

The program used to be called "Tough Love." I think that says a lot.

Two books I recommend instead:

Unconditional Parenting and Connection Parenting


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tiger Lily* 
Interesting. I have what I believe is the newest edition of the book (put out June 06) and it's decidedly anti-spank from what I can remember while reading it.

Yeah, I think they revised their stand on spanking. It seems to me that they are anti-spanking now (at least from the article that I remember reading).
I was just saying that it's very likely that the pp DID read something pro-spanking in the book, if she had an older version.


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I mean, I'm sure it "works." But I don't guess it's fostering a whole lot of good feelings for each other.

If I leave my windows down on my car and my husband notices it on his way in from work, imagine how I'd feel if he said something like that? "I'll put the windows up, but then I get to keep the car."







What a crappy way to offer help.

I liked this example & ITA.

Books I've found very helpful are How to Talk so kids Will Listen and Parent Effectiveness Training (which is a precursor to the first, but just helps foster the general approach). I also enjoyed Unconditional parenting and Jan Hunt's The Natural Child is great.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I took a course on parenting with dh that used a lot of Love & Logic material.

Mostly, as dh described it they needed "a lot more love and a lot less logic". They no longer advocate spanking, but they do advocate time out in ways that I find silly. The example used in class was "if your 3 year old dumps his oatmeal on the dog's head, then you put him in time out." No, sorry, if my 3 yo dumps oatmeal on the dogs head, s/he's helping me clean up the oatmeal from the floor and where ever the dog spread it! (and helping me give the dog a bath - and we're not going to do anything 'fun' until those are accomplished).

I think this is a technique that might work well with a teenager who can comprehend the logical (and sometimes natural) consequences that parents are talking about. The people on the adoption board who use L&L are parents, I believe, who've adopted older children who have some pretty extreme issues, and are not responding to connection alone.


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## Labbemama (May 23, 2008)

Our church is offering a L&L class and I've been to a couple in my early childhood edu trainings.

I don't know though I think 18 months is too young for "logic" do they really understand that whole long sentence? "If you are screaming, you are tired if you are tired you go to bed."

I might just say "GO to sleep" or some cuter baby talk version that is probably not endorsed by any parenting program. (go sleepies, go night-night, or in the case of my bilingual nephews. "go Mimis" That one worked the best. LOL even on my kids.

The difficult thing with reasoning with kids (like L&L) teaches you to do is they turn into verbally peruasive and sometimes logical kids. I'm not going to bargain or reason with you. Sometimes I feel like because I'm your mom and I love you and wouldn't steer you wrong should be good enough. If you always given a logical reason "Why not" then the kids are going to learn (at about 2 I think) to ask "WHY?" and then what?


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:

The difficult thing with reasoning with kids (like L&L) teaches you to do is they turn into verbally peruasive and sometimes logical kids. I'm not going to bargain or reason with you. Sometimes I feel like because I'm your mom and I love you and wouldn't steer you wrong should be good enough. If you always given a logical reason "Why not" then the kids are going to learn (at about 2 I think) to ask "WHY?" and then what?
I guess I feel differently. . . I WANT my children to think logically and be able to question WHY someone is telling them to do something. In today's world, I don't want my children to just blindly obey because an adult is telling them to do something, period. That's my SIL's philosophy and it scares the living heck out of me for her children. It almost seems like grooming them for predators.

Additionally, I find if I give my children a concrete reason for why I'm saying "No" most of the time, they're much more likely to take me at face value in those rare instances when I can't really explain and the answer is just "No, because I'm the mom and that's it". So it works in my favor to talk with them and discuss with them. Sometimes they try to rationalize and bargain. Usually it doesn't work, but sometimes they (even at 3 and 5) bring up a point I hadn't considered and I'm willing to re-evaluate.

I'd much rather my children feel that they can discuss their problems with me than that they just have to obey no matter what.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Totally agree, Tiger Lily! Critical thinking....it's a good thing!


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## Alvenchrst (Feb 3, 2003)

Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.


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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

Well in that particular situation, what about saying, "Let's get these toys picked up" and then explain why - so we don't trip on them, so we can find them when we want them, because it makes you feel calm when the house is picked up, etc. Or say, "let's pick up teh toys so we can go......<insert whatever activity>. My children are much more likely to want to help around the house when they feel it is a team effort. I also think it's important to have realistic expectations. You could make a game out of it. And if all else fails, you can model it.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Yeah, I think they revised their stand on spanking. It seems to me that they are anti-spanking now (at least from the article that I remember reading).
I was just saying that it's very likely that the pp DID read something pro-spanking in the book, if she had an older version.

i have never read love and logic. i don't really know much about it..... but i wanted to say that they do have a statement at their website stating they are definitely anti-spanking now. just wanted to verify you are correct.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvenchrst* 
Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.


My favourite book pretty much for "daily life, getting things done" is How to talk so kids... and in that case I'd say "Noah, toys."

I also like the Secret of Parenting as a /thought starter/. Some of the tactics in there do not appeal to me for our family but I loved some of the thinking and stories in there. In this case 1. that "doing it for them" but expressing things about it "okay, then I will clean up the toys. But I'm not that happy about it." CAN be helpful. Most especially though, 2., the idea that the I think he calls it "baby self" of young kids is probably not going to put them in a place where they will clean up their toys when they are recovering from other stresses (like school), and that the long-term goal is self actualizing adults, not winning every battle.

I liked that and the story about the garbage cans.









But.

I don't actually think early two year olds necessarily can clean up toys out of a sense of duty or obligation. I disagree with your "surely they're ready for that." They just don't have the impulse control or the desire to be non-oppositional.

What they can do it out of is fun or routine. So making it fun and a routine helps a lot. I don't think that's poor modelling. I frequently put on good music so that cleaning is more fun for myself.


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## natural_momma (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
I wouldn't like to be treated that way, so I don't use it. I also think they misuse the phrase "natural consequences." A better book is How to Talk so that Kids listen and How to Listen so that Kids will Talk.

I second this recommendation...(I read both)

Not a fan of L&L. There are some good nuggets if you are a critical thinker, but most of it is not appropriate for young children IMO. It seems based on the assumption that your kids are going to fight you every step of the way just for the sake of being oppositional, rather than looking into positive ways of communicating w/kids on their level and in ways that are impactful from the child's developmental perspective.

L&L is pretty passive-aggressive and I think it can be easily abused and taken way too far. Someone I know took it so far as to lock their 10yo out of the house overnight for something he did (don't remember particulars, but they somehow made this a logical consequence and justified it w/L&L). I understand the whole teaching responsibility thing, but I think sometimes you have to cut people (incl. kids) some slack, after all there are times when I need them to cut me some slack as well.

One piece I do use and like is the allowance/chore system. Allowance is practice money that we give free of strings ie it is not 'earned'. However if you don't want to do your chores you have to 'hire' someone to do them (just like dh doesn't get paid to mow the lawn, but if he doesn't want to do it he has to shell out some $ for someone else to). Granted dd is 5 and it's $1/week and her only chore is feeding the dog, but she has never chosen to spend the $.25 to hire me to do it for her (not that it would be a big deal if she did--she'd get a vacation and I'd be up a quarter







I keep it very lighthearted and she's not lacking for anything so if she ever chooses to part w/the money it's mostly symbolic). She's very proud of taking care of our dog and rarely needs reminding. I'm sure it will always be this easy









I haven't really delved into it too much yet but I also have the Sears Discipline Book and it seems on-track.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natural_momma* 
Someone I know took it so far as to lock their 10yo out of the house overnight for something he did (don't remember particulars, but they somehow made this a logical consequence and justified it w/L&L). I understand the whole teaching responsibility thing, but I think sometimes you have to cut people (incl. kids) some slack, after all there are times when I need them to cut me some slack as well.

i've never read the book....but certainly the authors would frown upon this example given (or at least i hope!!!!). people who follow a philosophy very strictly...ya know, there is always going to be an extremist who behaves irrationally...lol. but that certainly doesn't mean it's justified and can be blamed on the parenting philosophy itself. i mean there are people who claim to follow "this" or "that" philosophy....but the examples they give here don't actually line up with that teaching at all. anyway, like i said...i've not read the book - but locking a child out of the house all night???? that's crazy!!!! surely the authors of L&L would agree!


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvenchrst* 
Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.

A two year old is capable of cleaning up toys, but in many cases it is not important enough TO HIM to want to do it on a regular basis. Not requiring a two year old to pick up toys isn't being permissive, more likely realistic IMO. If picking up is required, in most situations the parent will have to either resort to punishment or rewards. Rewards make actually work for a while, but when they stop working the parent is going to be in for power struggle central. Then once the power struggles kick in, that is when it is damaging to the relationship.

This is the way that I look at it. We have so many more toys than kids had generations ago. When you look at history - kids just had a few special toys and could understand that if something happened to those it would be a while before they would get a replacement (if ever). The overload of toys today, plus the pile on of gifts from friends/relatives totally changed how kids view their toys and they don't have the incentive to take care of them as children in past generations. This is not the child's fault that he doesn't have a high regard for toys.

As a parent, I feel that if it is important to me that the toys be picked up, I take care of it. If the kids help great! If not, I'm modeling what I would like to see. I think it is also great to model that it is fun. If they see me being grumpy about picking it up, they are not going to want to do something that they see as making me grumpy. If I enjoy what I am doing, they are more likely to join in.

So I say, you are already picking up after them, so just lose the guilt over it. Make it fun, have a silly routine or something, make cleaning up look inviting. They may not start helping right away, but slowly they will start to come around.


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## Kathryn B (Jan 23, 2007)

I think that there are a lot of misunderstandings about the Love an Logic program. Love and Logic isn't about getting your children to do things your way, it's more about training yourself to be a better parent, to allow your children to have a certain amount of control and responsibility in their lives and having this result in a home of mutual respect. If there are methods we are using which we feel are not respectful or are passive-aggressive, we are probably not doing them right since the whole program is about allowing our children to learn and to recognize the results of their actions. The methods promoted in Love and Logic do not relieve parents of the responsibility of modifying and personalizing things for our individual children -- we are supposed to use our brains and strive to understand what will work best for each of our children. Everything is supposed to be done in Love and is supposed to be Logical -- if it isn't, then we are doing it wrong; it's as simple as that. If we are consistent in our learning and growing as parents, then Love and Logic will continue to be successful. If we use the methods to try and manipulate our children, then we aren't following the program at all.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

Naomi ALdort's book, Raising our Children Raising Ourselves is a great book for using actual love and actual logic with children and getting our own reactions out of the way. I highly recommend it!


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## natural_momma (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't think I misunderstand any of the book. I do understand that they advocate training babies like dogs and leaving infants to cry in their room when they are unhappy ("obnoxious"). They recommend hiring a babysitter and going to a hotel if your child is in the habit of coming to you at night, and pretending to give away the family pet if the child doesn't do chores. I'm sure plenty of parents can filter out this sort of ridiculousness, but since the authors explicitly state that you should not listen to your instincts when making parenting decisions, I would be concerned about the number who _would_ buy into the techniques 100%. Clearly the person I know who locked their child out is one of those cases, but they truly believed they were being loving and logical. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I respect the abilities of most parents to take-and-leave parts of any method. There were a few on-point ideas in the book, especially for _older_ children. As a whole though, the negatives outweigh the positives for me, and I would never recommend it. I'm surprised to find so many people here who do.

Kathryn B, the way you state it sounds wonderful and I'm sure you are using the method for the best in your family. It sounds like how I try to parent...Just not what I got from the book. I'm wondering if you went to a great workshop or something that made the difference.


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## Eavesdrop (Nov 19, 2005)

The edition I've read -- "Parenting With Love and Logic" (1990) -- approves of corporal punishment.


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## Ell-Bell (Nov 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvenchrst* 
Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kacymoose* 
A two year old is capable of cleaning up toys, but in many cases it is not important enough TO HIM to want to do it on a regular basis. Not requiring a two year old to pick up toys isn't being permissive, more likely realistic IMO.









: I don't use threats, confiscations, or time outs with my 2 year old son. We try to practice Connection Parenting, or Unconditional Parenting, both great books. We lead by example. I say, "the floor is awfully messy, I might step on something! Let's clean up the toys." Then I start to clean them up. Sometimes DS joins right in, other times he doesn't. Sometimes I can just say, "Hey Max, will you grab that firetruck and put it in the bin?" and he'll do it. If he says no, I do it. If it's important to ME that the toys be put away then I do it. It might be important to him that the floor be clean if he wants to do a floor puzzle or something, in which case I might say, "We can't do the puzzle right now because the floor is covered with toys. Let's clean them up so we can play with the puzzle." I also try to have fun with it. We might race around the room trying to pick things up as fast as we can, or I might make the bin say, "Thank you" in a low voice every time he puts a toy in the bin.

Again, I think leading by example is a huge thing. Just this morning my son looked at some books and papers that had fallen onto the floor and said, "I make a mess!" my MIL said, "yep, there's a mess where the papers fell on the floor." and he thought for a moment, then said, "I clean it up!" and started to pick the books up. I said, "I'll help!" and together we picked up the papers and books. He's learning that when he makes a mess he should clean it up, but I'm also modeling that it's nice to help someone when there is cleaning to be done.

As for alternatives, I highly suggest the Alfie Kohn book, Unconditional Parenting. Also, Connection Parenting is available in book or CD form, as well as a downloadable MP3. I found listening to it a little slow and basic, but it's still good info.

There are a ton of great articles on the Joyfully Rejoicing website. Here's on on Getting your Kids to help with the Chores. The Natural Child Project also has some great articles, including "The Case against Time Out"


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