# co-sleep and "the smell of milk"



## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

My pediatrician is not pro or con family beds... but I can tell from her tone she thinks it's odd. No matter, she is pro breastfeeding and all. So she asked at our 4 month check up today how often DS feeds at night/ how long he sleeps. I said he sleeps 4 hour stretches (at the most) sometimes 2 hours...
She was shocked and said "he NEEDS to sleep longer than that, can you put him in a bassinet or something?"
Me: NO.
Then she suggested something... she said "the smell of milk" sleeping next to me might be waking him up. That a slight stir in the night turns into wakefulness b/c of the milkies near by. She suggested having DS sleep on DH's side of bed, away from me, and then DH can pass him to me "if he REALLY needs to eat".

What do you more experienced co-sleeping families think of this? Is there any truth to this? Help.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't think it's a good idea to put the baby on DH's side instead - the fact is that men do not have the same instinct to wake that mother's do and it would be a safety issue for me.

Whether in the crib or next to you a baby will wake up during the night - that's just normal. My DS did wake up to feed for a long, long time and actually still does on occasion (he'll be 2 on Sunday) but because he's right next to me I don't need to get up and go to him to comfort him or to nurse him and I like that. He doesn't seem to have ever suffered due to these wakings so I don't think he "needs" to sleep more then that. Most of the time now if he wakes I can just pat him back or something and he'll go back to sleep - you can try to see if you can get your babe to go to sleep without feeding and sometimes it might work.

Believe me - overtime he will NOT need to eat every 2 hours, he really will slow down on the feedings. It just takes a while.

Kitty


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## IamCoupongirl (Jan 3, 2003)

My 2 cents....but my background first:

With my (now) 3 year old dd, she slept in a bassinet next to my bed for 4 months. After 4 months I started putting her down for the night in the crib and co-slept from her 1st night awakening until morning. I totally believe the "milk smell" theory! Not that I minded...but still. When I started nursing her in the rocking chair and putting her back in her crib (at around 12 months), her night nursings dropped down to a more reasonable *one* time per night.

With my (now) 1 year old dd, we ditched the bassinet and co-slept from 1 week until about 4 months. Loved it! At around 4 months, when she naturally started sleeping longer, I started putting her down for the night in her crib. By 6ish months, she was sleeping 10-12 hours at night about 90% of the time. That freaked me out at first, but I just figured that was normal for her. I notice that whenever we co-sleep, she wakes up (halfway) to nurse all night long. Then we're both crabby during the day.









I love co-sleeping, but have found that it isn't 100% great for us, mostly because I feel like they "smell my milk" and want it! If you want to co-sleep, go for it! If you change your mind later, that's okay. Just don't let your doc bully you. I HATE that.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Hmmmmmmm.... ds is 8 months old now and he stays asleep for 4 hours at a time. He could probably sleep for longer, but it has never been tested b/c the longest he is alone in bed before I come to bed is 4 hours. I don't know about "smelling" the milk, but I think mama's presence stimulates babies to eat. That is why when women have supply problems, they tell them to take the baby to bed. Personally, I have no problem with this, b/c I don't even wake up when ds nurses at night. I don't think he wakes up either. I certainly don't remember any of it. I don't think waking is a problem or harmful for a baby, either. Sleeping all night through without waking is not biologically required or normal for humans - it is an aspect of our culture. Some people cannot function well without uninterrupted sleep, and some (like me) don't have a problem. I say, if you are sleepy all day, or the baby is, then maybe you need to work out other arrangements. Lots of people do well with the crib until the first waking, and then co-sleeping. I cannot stand to not sleep with ds - the thought of it is upsetting!


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

Thanks for the input from all.
For us, a crib is not an option b/c we don't own one. Or a bassinet. We do have a home made "side car" arrangement we stopped using at around 3.5 months that we could go back to, but I don't think he'd go for it plus we like having him in bed.
Some nights... the 1-2 hour feedings, despite nursing in bed laying down I get exhausted. The 3-4 hour feeding nights are ok. I changes`weekly...

Keep the input coming!!!


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

I think the smell the milk thing is real, but moving baby out of your bed isn't the only way to reduce nightwakings. No Cry Sleep Solution is a book with a lot of recommendations for cosleeping families.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I honestly think there is no problem with what you are doing. My ds(almost 5 months) is waking more and more because he gets distracted during the day, learning new things, etc. He gets ALOT of nutrition at night which I am not willing to give up. My dd stopped nursing altogether at night about 11 months. So honestly, I don't think you should worry.
Also, sleeping next to dh could be a potentially dangerous situation. Men are not wired hormonally to respond to babies during the night like we are- even though they might be willing. I suggest reading through some of the info on the Dr. Sears website. I don't like to put ds next to my husband at night. Because my husband doesn't sleep lightly like I do, as a mother.

Just makes sure he eats well during the day, do your best, and don't wory about it. Babies will get the sleep they need eventually and every baby has different needs. I wouldn't stress.







Hope you figure it all out. Co-sleeping babies sleep better on their own in the long run, and it is well worth every night waking


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Your child sounds very normal. Doctors are very misinformed when it comes to CHILDREARING issues. They know about bacterial meningitis, not about cosleeping. Sadly, they often know next to nothing about breastfeeding or nutrition, either.
I would also not put the baby on my DH's side of the bed. I agree with the PP who said that men do not have the same waking instincts that mothers do. I wake up when the baby whimpers in bed next to me -- he can sleep through her screaming.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Do what works for your family, but after last weekend I'm a big believer in "smelling the milk"

We have real sleep issues, dd wakes up hourly most nights to nurse I could go into it but it's truley unbearable. This weekend I slept with ds in his room dh slept with dd, and guess what, she only woke up twice a night instead of 10 or more. Last night we were all in bed again together and guess what, yup, up 7 times to nurse.

Overall co-sleeping has worked well for us and I really love all the snuggling and having her close but she's nearly 14 months and I'm really tired.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Both of my girls sleep right next to me, always have. DD1 started sleeping all night at five weeks, DD2 started sleeping all night (7hours minimum) within her first week of life. But I wouldn't say I night-weaned them, that's just how they are. If either of them wakes up and needs to nurse, I nurse them. Usually it only happens when they are teething or having a growth spurt or hitting a developmental milestone. Both girls have always cluster fed literally for hours at bedtime, and I think that plays a huge role in how long they sleep at night.

I think if your baby needs to nurse, he will wake up no matter where he is. The big difference between cosleeping and having him in a crib is how far you have to move to nurse him. Cosleeping means you can just latch him on there in the bed. If he were somewhere else, you'd have to get up, nurse him, put him back to bed, then go to bed yourself. That's too much trouble, if you ask me.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Heck my almost 2 years old sleeps the same way as your infant, lol
If you are happy with the way thiongs are, then there is no need to change anything.
Your baby is going to wake up no matter where he is, and the best place, imo, for him to be is right next to you so that you can nurse him to sleep as fast as possible before he *really* wakes up.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Our 16 mo. old DD sleeps with us and nurses frequently. But we still choose to co-sleep at this point.

I have read the "No Cry Sleep Solution" and though I appreciate the information, we don't like heavily scheduled lives so we haven't really initiated any of the suggestions seriously at this point. In fact, so far I haven't even really been able to chart her patterns because I get too tired to keep track of times during the night and I don't always wake up when she nurses either.

We've tried several sleeping arrangements over the months. Started out with co-sleeping but I was too afraid we'd squish her so DD slept in a bassinet in our room for 3 months. When she grew out of the bassinet, we moved her to a crib in her own room (as suggested by my mother) but I hated it. I missed her and though baby seemed fine with it, I was not ready to be away from her. It just didn't seem right to me that somebody so little should be left all alone like that. Besides, I had to get up and tromp through the dark to get to her for nursings which would wake me up too much to go back to sleep. (I did a lot of crossword puzzles from 2-4 in the morning.)

So after about a week, we moved the crib to our room. For awhile, we put her to bed in the crib and I still had to get up to nurse. I was still doing too many crosswords at night, so after a few weeks of this, I ended up bringing her to bed with me after she'd wake the first time.

It took me a long time (6 months?) to master side-lying nursing, but once I did it was just easier to let her stay in bed and nurse all night. I don't really know how often she does nurse at this point because I fall asleep and then wake up with a breast exposed.

Sometimes I do want to night wean her (like lately because I've been experiencing some insomnia) but trying to do so just seems like too much work at 3:00 a.m. when I am half asleep, so we're still nursing at night all snuggled up together. DH likes co-sleeping so that's a plus. If I get out of bed, DD will often snuggle up to him. But she still wakes and wants to nurse.

As for sleeping with DH, I say go with your instincts. I think at this point, our DD would be fine sleeping with DH. But she's pretty big now and DH is being treated for sleep apnea and is able to be aware of her presence (I always tell him if she's there next to him). I would never have felt comfortable with it before when she was younger, though.

Now, at bedtime, we read a couple books and DD nurses until sleepy then rolls over to sleep. She likes to spoon with me (I LOVE this!). DH and I often get out of bed after she's asleep and spend a little adult time together. Baby wakes up to nurse around midnight or 1:00 then every 2-3 hours later through the rest of the night. I am hoping that once all of her teeth are in she'll be able to sleep in longer increments. The eye teeth have been really hard on her. (And me, too.)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Yeah - the "smell the milk" thing is real, IMHO. We've been having quite a lot of trouble with DD's sleep - she's having trouble settling down with me, she's a restless sleeper with me, and she doesn't settle back down well after nursing at night with me. DH and I have been experimenting with her sleeping with him in a separate room and she sleeps SO much better. She settles down, she wakes less frequently, and she resettles after nursing. She's fully capable of letting DH know when she needs to nurse and if she wakes and doesn't need to nurse she goes back to sleep, whereas with me, she'll nurse b/c I'm there (not a bad thing by itself, but it upsets her more than it comforts her right now). I think it does dads a disservice to say that their instincts aren't good enough to sleep next to baby. Maybe their instincts aren't as good as Mom's INITIALLY, but I think it can be learned behavior - my DH certainly has, and I trust him absolutely with our DD.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Go here:

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/dettwyler.html

and click on the commentary about sleeping through the night to see how it is not even normal for our species. And read the other stuff too, Kathy is a great resource! I was lucky enough to take one of her courses when I was at A&M. I love her site, because you can find scientific studies to back up what we already know intuitively (but often have to defend to others constantly).


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## ChinaDoll (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*

I think if your baby needs to nurse, he will wake up no matter where he is. The big difference between cosleeping and having him in a crib is how far you have to move to nurse him. Cosleeping means you can just latch him on there in the bed. If he were somewhere else, you'd have to get up, nurse him, put him back to bed, then go to bed yourself. That's too much trouble, if you ask me.

ditto that! We co-sleep with both our kids as well, and I totally buy the smell-the-milk theory, but I think they'll smell it from anywhere in the house if they're hungry, particularly as young babies. If I'm nursing my toddler, the baby can/will wake to protest he's not getting any - from anywhere in the house and even out of a deep sleep! So I figure, why not make it easier on all of us, and just be accessible - works for us, anyway!

They just Loooooove their Mommy-milk


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

If baby smells the milk and wakes b/c of that to nurse more, there is probably some biological reason for that, don't you think? At that age, I don't think it's a problem.

For us, night waking/nursing wasn't an issue until it was nursing out of habit and needing a nipple IN the mouth to stay asleep, around 15-18 mos.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I have a few thoughts ...

I found as my baby got older, having me there DID wake her up to nurse more than she would have without me. I know this because she slept better when she was with daddy and I was in the other room. (We didn't night wean, I'd come in and nurse when she woke).

On the other hand, it is absolutely ridiculous to say that a 4 month old "needs" longer stretches of sleep. Nonsense! Their sleep cycles are shorter than ours. It is not a big deal (for them, at least!) to wake every 2-4 hours. Me, I didn't do so well waking every 2 hours, but that is a different story.









If what you are doing is working for you, no worries! Your ped is just plain wrong.


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

Such interesting and varied input, THANK YOU!
I agree that how lon he sleeps at this age doesn't matter. It seems though that everyone from random strangers to the pediatrician is obsessed with how long he sleeps. I am getting ready to stop being polite about that question!









Last night was interesting. Of course last night wasn't normal for him b/c he had 2 vaxes from the ped and is breaking a tooth, so the poor little guy was out of sorts. But we put back the home made "side car" arrangement we used to use, and he went down initially like a rock, but then woke in 2 hours and even after a long nurse fussed like crazy until he was back in my arms in the main part of the bed. Then he slept the remainder of the night until 6:30am without waking!!

I love having my sweet boo in bed and happy with me...
I think the next time someone asks or tries to analyze our families' sleep patterns I will politley (or not so...) tell them to take a hike.







:

i DO however love hearing all of your input... thank you for all of the wonderful support!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

...and then there are many mamas who move baby but baby still wants to nurse all night and now mama has to get up!









if it works, i'd say go for it - but not with a 4 month old, too young


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Question: In your follow-up post you mention the 1 - 2 hour feedings leave you exhausted. Do you fall back asleep once the baby latches on? Or do you fight sleep, working at staying awake? Or are you just unable to fall back asleep while the baby nurses?

Have found that once the baby is able to nurse without my intervention (breast-holding or anything like that) that I fall asleep very quickly when they nurse. And end up with a pretty full night's sleep (despite the few interruptions here & there to help the baby latch on).

And once they're old enough to find it themselves, I can sleep through the whole thing, and only know that they nursed at some point because my shirt is up/over/open in the morning ... :LOL


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

I haven't read everything written here, but I have some thoughts.

1. Your baby does want to eat more because you are there. This is not a bad thing. Why discourage it? It ups your supply and protects you from having too little milk due to illness, dehydration, etc.

2. You will be able to sleep during nursings and even through nursings after a bit of practice at it. Night nursing does not have to equal exhaustion.

3. Watch your own behaviour. You don't have to shove a nipple in baby's mouth every time he stirs. I made that mistake at first, too. a restless baby isn't always a hungry baby. and DON'T look at the clock. You'll stay awake waiting for feedings and there is no need.


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## Roon (May 23, 2004)

Quote:

and DON'T look at the clock.
Amen, sistah - so simple, but *so* important! I finally covered the display on mine last week and it's made *such* a difference. Hard to get all worked up and play the "poor, pitiful me" game (that only serves to keep you awake longer!) when you aren't sure if you've slept 20 minutes or 2 hours. LOL

I also covered the nightlight most of the way so the room's a lot darker, started taking 250 mg of magnesium (TY to the person who posted that advice - can't remember who - sorry!) and gave up *all* caffeine after 4PM - even *decaffeinated* iced tea (still has traces) - and we've been sleeping great ever since. Still night nursing, but *much* better able to remain drowsy/asleep through it now!


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Why magnesium?


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## awnja (Sep 1, 2004)

yup. i sleep through most night nursings. dd's 6 mo so i still have to wake to latch her on but then i'm out. people ask how she's sleeping i either say "good enough" or tell them that she wakes all the time but since we cosleep, I sleep all night, and that's all I really care about.

Last night I rolled onto my tummy and she slept from 2 am to 6 am so maybe that kept her from smelling the milk...

but the reason I know this is that I'm so used to nursing regularly through the night that when she stopped waking, I couldn't sleep! It felt like a huge waste of potential "adult sleep" as my pediatrician calls it. (she worries more about my sleep than dd's, won't tell me not to co-sleep, but warned me of future problems- marital,sleep -at least she's respectful about it. She acts like its none of her buisness and I appreciate that.)


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## Roon (May 23, 2004)

Sorry for the late reply, Tammylc - I don't get to follow up here as often as I'd like.

Check this thread by a poster named "rrr" - it's very helpful: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...9&postcount=10

Hope you see this!


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