# What would you do?



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My dd, who will be 3 next week, is a real spirited child. She also falls into the gifted category which has its own set of challenges (asynchratic development for one). She's getting better around the house with cooperating although we have to have a discipline tune-up every so often when she tests to see if those rules really do still apply.

But she seems to have a knack for knowing when we are in a situation where we can't discipline her at all, and she get so defiant. We can't provide any consequences to her actions at all and she makes a sport out of challenging us even when we try to explain things to her calmly.

Two examples:

We were flying out of town for Thanksgiving. She got into her seat on the plane and started shrieking just for the heck of it with a big smile on her face, and kicking the seat in front of her. Both of which really annoyed people around us. I asked her to use her quiet voice to which she shrieked louder and said, "Leave me alone!" and kicked the chair in front of her harder. There was nothing I could do. Couldn't put her in time out, couldn't take away a priveledge, nothing. And she knew it. I tried to ignore it and the behavior escalated further in an attempt for her to get our attention. We apologized profusely to those around us but she just kept at it until she got tired of it.

This evening we stopped by a friend's house to pick them up for the light parade. We were driving separately and were to caravan there. They were ready to pull out of the driveway and dd would not get in her carseat. She is normally fairly cooperative but chose not only to refuse to get into her seat, but to climb over the back seat into the cargo area of the car. Dh opened the back, got her out, and she was kicking and screaming. Tried to talk to her about us going to see lights but she wouldn't listen . Counted to three and she again got away from us and flopped onto the floor on the opposite side of the car and dh had to go around and get her. Finally we both held her down while he strapped her in. I felt like telling her that if she didn't get in her seat we were not going to see the lights and would go home. If we were alone I would do that but our friends were waiting for us and we had driven across town to see the parade. If we didn't leave soon we would not get a good parking spot.

So, what would you do? How do you handle this type of behavior when your child has you backed into a corner and seems to delight in it?

Darshani


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think that's one of the problems with punishment-based discipline - when you're in a situation where you can't punish, you're powerless. Rethinking your basic MO may help prevent situations like this from occuring, or if they do, you'll have more of a toolbox to use, and your child won't be delighting in the tables suddenly being turned.

Distraction often works; when we were on planes and Rain was little I interacted with her pretty much constantly. We played games, we drew, we talked, I read to her. I brought new stuff just for plane trips - wiki stix were fun, and those clings that stick to windows.

In the carseat situation, I would probably have just taken her home, since she didn't seem to be in a good place for the event. If there were two parents, perhaps one could ride with friends to see the lights and the other taken the kid home. Or since it was a caraven thing, I might have just pulled out a book, told friends to go on without us, and waited to see if/when child would pull herself together. Generally it's a ten minute thing, by that time she would either be ready to go or it would be clear that it wasn't happening.

I would also focus on preparing her for what's coming; you didn't menion whether or not you did that. It helped Rain for me to pretty much lay out what was happening, and what she would be expected to do as a participant. If she chose to go, then she knew what to expect. If she really didn't want to go, we could look for solutions.

Dar


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Thanks for the input. *I'm* feeling worn out and burned out by punishment based discipline. And dd doesn't seem to care about it anyway. I was spanked (beaten) as a child so that's basically my life experience and it's hard to be able to come up with other ways to deal with situations. I've vowed never to spank her and so far never have (although I sure did feel like it yesterday with the carseat thing!).

I should have had more distractions on the plane, like stickers or something. Actually I did have some sticker books. Guess I got so caught up in the struggle that I didn't even think of them.

One characteristic of gifted children (as I just learned from my gifted child list) is that they are extremely defiant beyond most children's level of defiancy.They also get locked into something and it's very hard to distract. Distraction almost never works for dd.

I did prep her for what to expect, and how to behave before the light parade. And yeah, maybe I should have gone on with my friend and left her with dh to deal with. It just stinks. I'm so resentful of her at times. Why should we miss out on something we were looking foward to, and took a great deal of effort and time to get to? I mean, the light parade was mostly for her sake, I would have been happy watching it on TV.

We have done similar things in the past. Like she refused to get her shoes on and wanted to go to the store with dh. So he just left without her and she stayed home with me. Cried and cried and for about a week was very cooperative about her shoes. Another time I told her if she pushed other kids on the playground we would leave. We left after about 15 seconds. The next day she only pushed once out of self-defense to get a kid out of her face who was being really nasty to her. Up until that time I'd thought maybe her pushing was just because she was too young to know better. But she knew perfectly well-- that she could get away with it until that day.

Dh suggested maybe with the carseat thing that if we are at home still, to just not go, or to delay the trip until she gets in the seat. If we are out and she does this, like at the library last week she refused to get her seat and I had an armful of books, to just shut both of us in the car and open a book and read until she gets in the seat. But how will I handle that with a screaming baby in the car who needs to get home??

Some of this may be baby anxiety, although she's known for quite awhile that we are having a baby soon. We've read books, talked about it, I've had friends with babies over and held them and she doesn't seem jealous at all. In fact she's very helpful and wants to change baby's diaper and all that. I involve her in picking out baby stuff that we buy, too. But I know that it's on her mind a lot, her stuffed animals always are either pg or have babies. I had to feel the baby kick on a stuffed chicken yesterday! lol!

Darshani


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## oncewerewise (Feb 14, 2003)

With the plane incident, I would have tried talking calmly to her and asking her if she would rather do X (colouring/stickering/whatever) but after a couple attempts, I would have restrained her legs and otherwise ignored her.

I normally do not advocate restraining children, but if they are hurting/disturbing other people and I could not remove them from the situation, I would. I mean, I think if you just let her do it, that teaches her that she can treat other people however she wants and that's not realistic. And, if I had been sitting in the seat she had been kicking, I would have said something to her.

If we are at home and the kids do not want to get in their car seat to go somewhere they want to go, we don't go. If only one of them won't and I have someone to watch her, then I take the co-operative one. If it's somewhere I need to go, then I count to 3 and if they don't co-operate they lose a privilege that they need my co-operation for.

I believe in giving children options, but also limitations.

Mind you, these type of moments happen rarely around here (thank goodness) and I think it's because of the fact that they have a lot of choice and flexibility. But, when I have to go write an exam or whatever, then I need them to co-operate. And, I think it's realistic to say if you don't help me with X (travelling safely), then I am going to feel less inclined to help you with Y (fingerpainting).

I also am a big fan of noticing and praising good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour as often as possible, unless it's a situation like above that is adversely affecting others or placing my child or other's in harm.

Peace and Happy Holidays!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Darshani,
I've read this thread about 6 times this morning....your dd sounds so much like mine (3 in feb).
We have the carseat issue a couple times a week (and only when we are already out--trying to get home usually). And, yes, often we resort to forcing her into the seat








We have the getting dressed issue. I left without her today (have before), and she screamed the whole 20 minutes I was gone. I explained her choice very clearly: get dressed and come along, or don't get dressed and stay here. She was a WRECK when I got home.

....just this moment, I got up to wash her hands, and while snuggling she said "Mommy, I'm really really sorry I fighted getting dressed". Spontaneously, half-hour after I got home. But, she is still wearing her pj's









Anyway, I, too, am worn out by the punishment-based discipline, but often the only natural consequence of her defiance is that mom and dad are miserable and resentful








I feel like we are caught in a bad pattern....far too many battles this month. Probably a phase, but I am tired.
Any good books that anyone can recommend that specifically address this kind of situation? I am in the middle of "Kids are Worth it!" and have read "Raising Your Spirited Child".


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Dar, how could you say this is a problem of punished based discipline, it doesn't sound as if the young child has ever been disciplined.

USAmma, I probably would not give her any choice about whether or not she was going to get in her carseat. If you explain that when we go somewhere in the car you have to sit in it for safety and it is the law, and don't let her stop you from going when you want to she will probably stop. Once she finds out that her fussing around isn't getting her anywhere she will stop. When your child has a behaviour that needs change it helps if you can figure out what benefit they get from that behaviour and eliminate the benefit. Example if a mom has a child that whines to get what they want if you tell them they need to talk in their big girl/boy voice before you can hear them they soon learn to give up the whining.


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*USAmma, I probably would not give her any choice about whether or not she was going to get in her carseat. If you explain that when we go somewhere in the car you have to sit in it for safety and it is the law, and don't let her stop you from going when you want to she will probably stop. Once she finds out that her fussing around isn't getting her anywhere she will stop. When your child has a behaviour that needs change it helps if you can figure out what benefit they get from that behaviour and eliminate the benefit. Example if a mom has a child that whines to get what they want if you tell them they need to talk in their big girl/boy voice before you can hear them they soon learn to give up the whining.*
ITA. There are some things IMO that aren't up for choice or debate (like riding in your carseat). ITA with the whining example also. My dd's whining has decreased considerably.

USAmma, I can only imagine how frustrated you must be. Sounds like you're doing the right thing!

Penelope, what is "TCS?"


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

oncewerewise, I always try to complement my oldest when she is helpful. Truly earned praise really is helpful. DD packed my diaper bag for me this morning and I told her how helpful and kind she was this morning and I really meant it. They seem to blossom with praise.

I dont know what ITA or TCS is







:


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Laura, that is great advice. I also do that. Praise, praise, praise for all the good deeds.

ITA means "I totally agree" (at least I think it does--took me a while to figure that one out!).


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Darshani- I have a spirited nephew (he also has Asperger's) and what you are saying are the challenges similar to what my sister has faced. The praise and many of the no-punishment based techniques did not work for my nephew- not that he is hit or anything- that is harmful- but having firm, clear rules seemed to be necessary and keeping him focussed. She has had to force him into his car seat at that age. No amount of preparation or negotiation or explanation had an effect.

It is a totally different situation to discipline a spirited child.

Spiritied children often don't have the sense of "heirarchy"- the parent knowing more or being in charge. (I mean this in its most basic sense- as in the parent being capable of knowing enough to keep them safe- I am sure this is coming across wrong)


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

It has been our experience with our gifted and super-spirited ds that punishment-based discipline does not work, and forcing the child into something he/she does not want does even worse. It is not a lack of discipline (though people are always quick to assume LOL), it is a characteristic of a child who needs to learn things on their own.
As I am no expert on the subject I will just share what generally works for us. Natural consequences are the absolute best way to go for us, Akira needs to see and understand WHY he shouldn't do something and will only accept the answer if he learns himself. If he throws things down the stairs I cannot take him down to do laundry (it is too dangerous for me to manipulate our steep stairs while balancing him AND a laundry basket while I dodge toys). That makes sense to him so he stopped doing it. He refuses to get dressed, he doesn't come. He won't get in his carseat, we wait until he does. He needs to see what happens when he is "defiant" to understand why it isn't desirable. And he has to test this theory over and over. It is exhausting, and I definitely get burned out from time to time. Parenting is a labour-intensive job! Besides, it will be time well spent, he is learning WHY he should behave in an appropriate manner instead of learning what he can get away with when we are unable to stop him








What helps his over-all attitude is to keep him constantly learning new things. When he is not intellectually stimulated enough his boredom and frustration manifests itself in all areas of his life. He becomes a lot harder to deal with. I find his "giftedness" a useful tool in getting his cooperation. Many times if I just sit down and talk the problem out with him (with a long and complicated list of reasons why I am frustrated) he responds well. Even if he doesn't get the point of it all he really appreciated the respect I am showing him.

Hopefully something in here was somewhat useful








Laurie


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I try to be playfull in these situations. Note -- I say that I "try." Because plenty often I'm too burned out to do it very effectively.

But for instance, on the airplane, I might have started up a game of "I spy." I have no idea why, but my children love that game and distracted into peaceful behavior the moment the words "I spy..." come out of my mouth. (I'm so freaking tired of that game though!) But it keeps them quiet.

My 3 year old also does the evasive manuever thing about getting into his carseat. I try to turn it into a game. "I'll count to 10 and you see if you can get into your seat before I get to 10." Or often, I'll offer him something to hold once he is in his seat -- like a small toy from my coat pocket. Worst case, I give him a choice. "Will you climb in by yourself, or shall I pick you up and put you in?"


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Out in public, take her to the bathroom, car, side hallway, et. This does not mean you spank her, yell at her, et. Just a firm when you can behave (descibe desired behaviors) we will finish. This is of course when you know nothing is wrong with her and you have done your best to prevent a negative situation.

As for the car seat/seat belt issue. It is simple we will not go anywear until you are in your seat. You do not go in the house, et. You sit and wait. If it takes an hour a firm one time "You did not get in your seat in a prompt fashion so we do miss the seeing the lights". That is a natural consequence of this behavior. So is getting cold or wet.

My three year old liked to refuse to get out of the car. So I left her out (I watched her through the window) she came in crying and told me she did not like to be left out in the car. I just politely said that is why we get out of the car quickly when we get home.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I try not to label children. I was labeled "gifted" all through my childhood, and it was a burden at times, and it also made me feel either like a weirdo or like I was better than the other kids, at different times. Rain is very much like I was as a kid, she becomes intensely interested in things and has difficulty switching gears, or did as a smaller child. She was dubbed a"spirited child" by our LLL group as a toddler, but I never used that term. She was sensitive, she was (and is) intense, and her habits have always been fairly irregular. Those things are useful to know, but they don't define her.

I think distraction works better if the child is seeing it as an attempt at problem-solving, rather than as an attempt to manipulate her into changing her behavior against her will. Because I parente harmoniously, Rain generally saw it as the former - "this isn't working for all of us, how about this?" - but other kids have seen it as trying to trick or fool them. It also helped to suggest something different before she "locked in", because there is a point of no return...

I agree with the playful thing. Goofy humor often works, too, especially at that age. The Butt-Munching carseat was a fave - "Please, pelase sit here - I am sooo hungry and I want just a liiiittle taste of Rain-butt!" There is a point where she would be too far gone and find that sort of thing to be not taking her seriously, but if I got it in time, it was great.

Darshani, I found it interesting that you said "Why should we miss out on something we were looking foward to, and took a great deal of effort and time to get to? I mean, the light parade was mostly for her sake, I would have been happy watching it on TV." The first sentence bit seems to be saying that you really wanted to see the lights, but then you say it was for her and you would be just as happy seeing it on TV. I think it's easy to get caught up in doing all these cool things for and with our kids, and sometimes the kids really aren't into the cool things, and it's more about us as parents, if that makes sense. I've planned great art projects for Rain when she was little that she couldn't have cared less about, but it seemed so cool to be making little wool and clothespin dolls together. That one ended up with me frustrated and her unhappy. We don't do art projects together much, and that's okay. We do other stuff. When Rain was 3, there was a not very widely known street that did great lights for the holidays, and we went 3 or 4 times a week during ecember. It was close, we could park nearby, we wouldn't stay more than half an hour and we could stop for 15 minutes at the Train house if she wanted. That was where she was then...

Dar


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Thanks sooo much for all your support and help! Really, it makes me feel better to have such useful insight. Sometimes when I get frustrated I feel backed into a corner and can't think of any alternative things to try.

One thing that dh and I are lacking in that is making the problem worse is lack of consistency. If we ask her to do something and she refuses, we tell her what the consequence will be, but then sometimes we are too tired to follow through, or else we can't because of being in public. For example telling her that she can't come if she doesn't let me help her put her shoes on, but then I have to go to the doctor and I can't just leave her alone in the house. Or dh will chase her around with her toothbrush and tell her 10 times to stop running, but there's never any consequence if she doesn't stop running. *He* gets tired and sits on the sofa. Sometimes reverse psychology works like he'll say, Okay, no brushing your teeth tonight. Too bad. Maybe tomorrow, and then she'll practically beg to have them brushed. But doesn't work very often.

A friend once told me that kids know exactly how many times they can get away with something before mom or dad follows through. So we really, really do need to be more consistent with consequences. I'm struggling with dh challenging me in the middle of a "crisis" too. Like tonight she found a screwdriver and dh felt it was dangerous and tried to get her to give it to him, which resulted in another chase. She was running with a sharp object and he was mad and started taking out on me, accusing me of not watching her well, rather than trying to catch her and get the screwdriver back. And personally I thought she was okay with it, she was just walking around trying to unscrew things which I thought was fine. Did't cause any harm. So anyway she sees that we are not in agreement about things and it makes the problem worse. She's much better when it's just me, than when we are both together in the evening.

Tomorrow I'm going to make some practice runs with the carseat thing. I'll get us all ready to go to the park or someplace, and then when she refuses to get in the seat I'll just pull her out of the car and walk back into the house and say we are not going to the park after all, because she didn't get in her seat. Or if we are at the park and she refuses to get back in her seat I'll just bring a book and sit there and read until she does. Bet she'll get bored real fast once she realizes I'm ignoring her and it's no longer a power struggle.

Not sure about the plane thing. I already told dh's parents I probably am not going go with the kids to India when baby#2 is a year old as originally planned. I would have to be nuts. Imagine my spirited dd and a 1 year old on a 40 hour commute plane trip!!!

Quote:

I was labeled "gifted" all through my childhood, and it was a burden at times, and it also made me feel either like a weirdo or like I was better than the other kids, at different times.
Dar I agree to a point, that kids should not be labeled in theory. However I have been so very frustrated and overwhelmed with my dd's spiritedness and behavior issues, as well as astounded by her achievements and observations at a young age. She has been so much more intense and just different from other babies/kids her age from the very beginning and I have often been at a complete loss. The classical parenting books and discipline books don't work for her very often.

Finding a label that fit her was like a burden off my shoulders. It gave me a direction to go in, to read books and meet other parents of similar children. Since discovering that label (and btw the term "gifted" seems so terribly outdated and wrong), I have learned so much more about what makes her tick.

This has been a recent discovery so I'm still struggling with things at times but it's getting better. I will probably not get her tested formally anytime soon, as I plan to homeschool. There's no need at this point. However I'm afraid if I put her in public school with the personality she has, and their strict policy of trying to make a child conform to their age group, I have no doubt she'll be very misunderstood, bored, and may be slapped with the wrong label by someone who doesn't understand her. However if she was labeled as gifted by a better school than what we have in our area, they can use that label as a means to meet her special needs. It's a paradox.

Darshani


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by USAmma_
*if we are at the park and she refuses to get back in her seat I'll just bring a book and sit there and read until she does. Bet she'll get bored real fast once she realizes I'm ignoring her and it's no longer a power struggle.
*
When I do this (and I an only do this in the winter, because we live in a very hot climate--much too hot inside a car that was parked in the sun to safely sit there), my dd will hum gleefully to herself as she clamors *directly for the most danger/off limits parts of the car (gear shift, emergency brake, etc.). I simply can not read and ignore her because she "ups the ante", very deliberately. So then we are engaged in a new battle.
Grrr. How have we become such adversaries?
Oh, and I guess I can answer that....because we've been dealing with this carseat issue since she was 18 mo, and I used to force her (while she fought violently) to sit every single time







. I can tell you first hand that *that* does not "teach" a spirited child not to fight--just teaches that Mommy will fight back.

The carseat and getting dressed are really our two last battle grounds....everything else we have learned to trust each other and cooperate together, for the most part. But what do you do when your 3 yo child *knows* you have to go somewhere, and she just refuses to take off her pjs and get dressed? How is it any consequence to her if we don't go?


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## Liz (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sunnmama_
*But what do you do when your 3 yo child *knows* you have to go somewhere, and she just refuses to take off her pjs and get dressed? How is it any consequence to her if we don't go?*
This is where we are stuck too. We don't have a problem with the car seat but if we did I would force him in there. I find that if he is picking the same fight over and over and I calmly, quietly, firmly and gently force him to do it a few times he will stop picking that fight. I don't think I have broken his spirit just not given him the reaction he was hoping for (angry Mom).

But getting dressed and out the door in the morning has me stumped. I physically can not force him into his clothes, he's too strong and he knows it.

To the OP:

I don't know what I would have done on the plane. Maybe cried!?

As I've said above I am not against forcing them into the car seat (let me say again: calmly, quietly, firmly and gently) but in this case I would have told dd that if she doesn't get in the car seat you will not go to the parade. If she doesn't do it tell your friends to go on ahead then give her one more chance.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Our answer to the "won't get dressed" issue was two-fold. First, we praised Evan every time he did work to get dressed. Or even started to take his PJs off. And we still say "thanks for getting dressed" frequently in the mornings. The only two times that he refused to get dressed when I couldn't cancel plans? He went in his PJs. (I took cloths in the diaper bag and he was willing to get dressed before getting out of the car for preschool.)

The same with the carseat -- if its someplace that is motivating for him, we don't go until he's in his seat. If that takes too long, we don't go at all. If its a situation where there is no choice, then I "help" with that time. But, I also always say "thanks" when he gets into his seat willingly and quickly.

As for the plane situation, it sounds like a nightmare for everyone! I think I probably would have held her legs still because the person in front was being hurt. That's more of a "anything to survive" time.

But I think you have really hit on the "global" answer by realizing that you aren't consistant. The only way consequences work is if you follow through every time, even when you don't want to. And also you and your partner have to agree on consequences and always help each other be consistent. And it takes a lot of help and work!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm finding this thread so interesting! Thanks, Darshani, for opening yourself up as the "example" that we're all learning from (lol).

I think it is definitely true that punishment-based discipline runs smack against a wall when either a) you are in a situation where you can't punish them or b) they "up the ante" (I mean, if spanking doesn't work, what do you do - hit them harder??).

I also think sunmama really hit the nail on the head: "how did we become such adversaries?"...

...this just resonated SOOOO much with me as the reason WHY I want to use GD and not punishment. I want to avoid it EVER being about me-vs-her. (ha, easier said than done I'm sure)

Anyways, I have one suggestion about the getting dressed thing. In "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf, he says that you aren't necessarily being inconsistent if you end up doing something for your child that you'd rather they had done themselves (so long as it's not at the end of a bunch of "or else" 's). You let them know that you don't have time to wait, that you are going to do it for them this time, and then you let them know that you are very displeased that you had to do that. The idea is that your child will end up feeling guilty that they upset you b/c they are not busy defending themselves against an attack of why they were "bad" for not getting dressed themselves (does that make sense?).


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom_
*The only two times that he refused to get dressed when I couldn't cancel plans? He went in his PJs.*
We did this for the whole summer. She went almost everywhere in her undies, and then dressed when she got there. Frankly, after months of having to struggle to dress her in parking lots (not fight her...but struggle with shoes and pants and such), I started to resent it.
I guess we will start that again. With the weather a bit cooler, it might actually be uncomfortable for her and she might decide it is a good idea to dress at home. Hope springs eternal, right?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Here's what my sister did- she dresses her boys in clean comfy clothes before bed- they sleep in them and are ready to go in the morning. She dispensed with PJs altogether and this has worked.

I haven't done that because usually my dd gets herself dressed and I dress the baby... I mean toddler...


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I try not to label children. I was labeled "gifted" all through my childhood, and it was a burden at times, and it also made me feel either like a weirdo or like I was better than the other kids, at different times.
I think understanding your child is gifted has nothing to do with labeling them (well most of the time it doesn't) and everything to understanding your child better. Gifted children THINK DIFFERENTLY then other children. They operate differently right from birth. Once you realize your child is different in this way (different, not better) it is so much easier to understand some of the challenges that you will face with this child on a day to day basis. Because these challenges increase as they get older it is so important to be aware of these differeces. It is not about telling your child they are "gifted" or putting extra pressure on them, it is about understanding your child the best you can so you can help them learn and grow







I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions about that because often people don't understand that a "gifted" child isn't just a child who is really smart, it is a child who is very different in all areas of development and requires a much different approach then other children. This is often why parents of "gifted" children have a hard time with discipline issues, and the problems they have are not solved with all the traditional forms of discipline.

Laurie )


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

My boys wear sweatpants and t-shirts to bed, so changing clothing is not an issue if we have to leave the house early in the morning.

Sunnmama, lol! It's cold here right now, and one of my children just will not wear warm clothing. There are a few issues here, first, I cannot assume that he feels as cold as I do, second, it seems a valuable thing to me to develop hardiness, and third, I want him to learn how to listen to his body's cues, which he will not be able to do if I am always making decisions for him. So unless there is danger of frostbite, I let him dress as he likes. There have been a few times already this winter that he has been a little unhappy because he was cold because he refused to put on warm clothing (or take it with him, which I always offer as an option.) Every once in a while he whimpers a little about it, and I just remind him that it was his choice. And so far, almost without exception, he is *still* choosing to dress in shorts and short-sleeved shirts.







: But I am going to continue to respect that choice, as long as it isn't going to hurt him. (I sneak warm clothing into the car if we *have* to be outside and there is danger of frostbite or hypothermia.)

I've done the forcing-them-into-the-carseat routine. (And feel bad about it, too, because carseats are incredibly uncomfortable. Hard plastic with about 1/4" of foam padding. *I* sure wouldn't want to sit in one.) Sometimes there's just no way around it. (They do understand about police and the law, and sometimes that works.) But, whoever said "if their fussing isn't getting them anywhere they will stop" doesn't know my child. I make it a point not to respond to whining or fussing or tantrums, and he just keeps going, which makes me think that for him it is not about manipulation, it is an expression of _frustration_. I do my best to give him options, explain things to him, and sympathize if that's appropriate. After all, _I_ get frustrated too, I get mad and rant and rave about things. Why should I expect a child not to ever do that, expecially when they have so very little power over anything.

Your situation, especially the plane episode, is different though. I would have restrained her too, though then there is the danger of her fighting back, which would be just as much of a scene if not more. In such situations I have resorted to threats and bribes, which never seem to work very well. Shame sometimes works (like a stranger saying something), sometimes it helps if I explain the situation in detail and ask him to help me out or I am going to have a nervous breakdown, sometimes it helps to get some physical distance from the situation at least a little bit. For instance, taking her to bathroom, or asking a flight attendant if there are isolated seats anywhere.


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## pixie-n-hertwoboys (Aug 17, 2003)

Now see this is why I love coming to MDC! I see myself and our situations played out by others and get all the advice w/ out posting it!! LOL

I also have the same kind of wonderful kiddo... and are going thru the same issues - almost to the tee. down to the whole dh issues! anyway, as a parent of a SC i tend to get wrapped up in the frenzy if it happens in public and its hard to concentrate and remember the other things that may help defuse (sp?) the ordeal. Also, I find that ds feeds off my moods. If I am nervous, he acts up; if I'm cranky, he is too. So in the plane situation I really don't know what I would of done. I guess it would of depended how I was handling the trip. I bravely took both my boys to MI this summer by myself on a plane - insane huh? Well, to my surprise he was AWESOME! just so excited to be on a plane and sit like a big boy. But I treated the situation like he and I were best of friends and it was my pleasure to be taking him w/ me. Not like it was a burden. He even was very helpful w/ the then 3 month old baby. So I think the moral of my story is if *I* am calm and concider it a treat to have him with me he acts accordingly - as long as he has food in his tum and caught up on sleep. If I only can remember this all the time! lol

One thing I did think was that your dd behavior could be from the baby coming. DS still gets in those phases where it just kills him to share mom.... but like everything else we get through it.

Humor does help in some situations with us. but like a pp said it has to be before all hope is lost w/ them.

DH and I don't work together all the time in the discipline area also. And I KNOW the inconsistancy does affect his behavior. He plays us to no end if he knows its something we have disagreed on before. Parenting as a team is the hardest thing I have ever done before, ever. DH thinks that physical discipline is what he needs to behave and I don't agree - I am trying to get him to see that he just needs strict boundries and if he crosses them there are other ways of showing the correct way. But omg it is wearing me out.

I am burned on parenting more than I am able to enjoy it.

Hugs to you Darshani as you are pg and dealing with this stage. I would of gone nuts already. Wait, I already have! lol

hang in there.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Just wanted to say thanks for the continued posts and support. I swear, dd is really making my brain strained from having to stay on top of it all the time. Keep the answers coming, I'm learning so much.

The carseat thing didn't work. I mean, it worked at home to get her into the seat or she would be left at home, but didn't work when out. What finally worked was she said she was thirsty and I told her she could have her water after she sat in the chair. Bribery. Look what I'm reduced to.

A couple days ago I asked her to shred leaves for a salad and went to the bathroom for 5 min. Came back to find this. I snuck up on her with the camera and called her name, expecting her to look guilty or something. Nope, she's showing me the "so what are you gonna do about it?" look? At least her mouth is full of lettuce-- getting her vitamins.







:

I was kinda laughing at how much fun she had but to her face I was like "Oh boy what a big mess. Come on let's clean this up" and that's where she drew the line in the sand and the power struggle started. She picked up 2 pieces and then refused to do more. So I told her she could either pick up the lettuce or go to her room for awhile. She chose neither so I carried her to her room. Asked her a few minutes later if she wanted to pick up the lettuce. I swept it in a pile. She picked up 2 more and started to stall. Said she was hungry (it was dinner time). I said she wasn't getting any dinner until this was cleaned up so she cleaned it all up. Bribery again.

So, any thoughts on how I could have handled this any better? I didn't get much satisfaction that any lessons were learned here. If she wasn't hungry at that moment I don't think she would have had any incentive to clean it up.

Darshani
who's starting to get pre-baby "what in the world have I gotten myself into" panic
and Abi who's THREE tomorrow!


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## Tuckersmom (Sep 4, 2003)

Have you read the book Playful Parenting? It has helped us tremendously. It has helped turn otherwise power struggle situations into silly cooperative fun. I'm not very good at explaining it, so maybe someone else on here has read it and can help out. It can be hard sometime becuase being silly isn't the first thing on your mind when trying to get a toddler to clean up a mess, but it really works.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:

I'm not very good at explaining it, so maybe someone else on here has read it and can help out. It can be hard sometime becuase being silly isn't the first thing on your mind when trying to get a toddler to clean up a mess, but it really works.
Yeah, I should have had a race with her or something. I'm sure she would have been game for it. I was just so tired, my back hurt, my mood swings are getting worse. I wish I could push "pause" and think about things. I did think it was pretty funny, the mess she made, but didn't want to encourage her to do it again. But just to show how effective (not) my discipline was, she did the same thing today with the shells of hard boiled eggs. Oh that was fun to clean up! I did it myself, she was just having way too much fun and I didn't really feel like getting into it today.

Darshani


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## Profmom (Feb 13, 2002)

I so remember those moments you describe, Darshani, when my DS was little. It almost always boiled down to stimulation - either too much or too little. The first thing I thought of when you described the Light Parade was just how freaked out my son was (and still is) about lots of flashing lights. Could she have been anticipating a lot of dramatic flashing lights? Just a thought.

A second thought. My son is very sensitive to all kinds of touch. The other day he got in LOTS of trouble at his violin lesson for "spinning down" the teacher's stool while she was off doing something else. This made it about 8 inches shorter and she nearly fell when she sat down on it. Later, when I asked him why, he told me he had been looking at that chair and thinking about that chair for *weeks* and finally he just gave in to the overwhelming impulse to touch it and see how the whole thing felt. He still hates to get dressed because the present clothes are warm and the new ones are cold. He is 10 now and better with issues of impulse control. But seeing the photo of your dd with the lettuce made me think: how good it must have felt to do that to the cold lettuce -- feel it, taste it, and who cares if mommy gets mad. Been there about 2,000 times







: Toothpaste feels really neat, too, as I have learned...

I am still not sure about how to address these issues -- it helped us to play with a lot of playdough, and I am convinced that his love of playing the violin stems in part from the touch of the thing -- the strings, the bow, the vibrations.

Sorry more anecdote than advice, but I hope it helps anyway!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

:LOL at the pic of abi surrounded in lettuce--what a cutie!
Really, your dd sounds SO much like mine. Does it feel like she "looks" for fights? Like she is disappointed if you don't challenge her? That describes my dd sometimes.....really frustrating--because I am trying to undo this adversarial stuff!

But, I am being honest when I say that dressing and the carseat are our last 2 battle grounds---and the reason (I believe) is that I still battle her in these situations (haven't figured out yet how to avoid it). I've let go of ALL the other battles we were having. You don't want to help clean up? That is your choice. Consequence is that toy is removed, or maybe no consequence at all except discussion on importance of cleaning up--and I swear, she cleans up with no problem now. You don't want to use the potty (after completely potty-trained for months, she started refusing to make a peepee even when dancing with strain). That is your choice. I trust you to let me know when you need to go. She goes no problem now! You don't want to apologize? That is your choice. I trust you to do the right thing and apologize when you feel ready to do so. Maybe 10 minutes later, she will go back and apologize.
The emphasis, obviously, is on her choosing her behaviors, and my dd has really picked up on this language. She talks about her behavior in terms of choices, and I think that is a really great thing. It empowers her and makes her feel more in control--which seems to be really important to certain personality-types.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

You have already gotten some great advice, be consistent, try to make a game of things, etc.

I don't think "bribery" (if that is what it is) is all bad. My 2 have been uninterested in clean up time as of late, even if I make it a game. So- it is never long before they want snack or a drink etc. I make it clear that when the toys are picked up, we'll have snack. I don't say, "if you pick up your toys, I'll give you a treat", I just say that "I will get snacks out when the toys are picked up". Some may say there is no difference there, but to me there is









Also, if you know there is going to be a struggle, you can try to be proactive- I have never had the car seat issue (yet







), but when we are going somewhere they don't want to go, I always plan something special to do there, or a treat to have, and BEFORE it ever becomes an issue to go, I say, "hey, kids, we need to go to the bank, and when we get home from there, we're going to fingerpaint







", So, they go along with no fight







: Maybe they are just easy? (easy to "bribe")









Good luck, and don't beat yourself up, you are doing great!


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## grumo (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

I make it clear that when the toys are picked up, we'll have snack. I don't say, "if you pick up your toys, I'll give you a treat", I just say that "I will get snacks out when the toys are picked up". Some may say there is no difference there, but to me there is
I agree. I don't consider the order of things to be bribery. "After the toys are picked up, we'll have snack" is quite different from "you can't have snack until you pick up all these toys." To some extent I see the first statement as an instance where you are not willing to be interrupted from the task at hand to do the next thing. I often say to dd, "I will read that book to you after I complete what I am working on on the computer." This is no different from, "I will get you your water after I finish putting you into your car seat."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sunnmama_
*...That is your choice. I trust you to do the right thing and apologize when you feel ready to do so. Maybe 10 minutes later, she will go back and apologize.*

Oh I so Loved reading this!!

My hope is that when DD is not put into a position where she has to defend herself, or struggle to be heard, that it will allow her to hear others (like me!).

I hope that my DD would feel really bad if she did something to hurt me, or make me lots of extra work (and not help clean up) etc. And that if I explained that to her in a non-judgemental way, that she would care enough to do something about it of her own volition.

It's so wonderful to hear this being confirmed IRL!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

We are having the getting dressed issue, too.

I find if I can do it almost first thing (while he's still kind of groggy and hasn't gotten into something) it goes a lot better. In a pinch, I will put on the TV and let him lay down in front while I dress him--he is distracted enough to be willing.

gotta go----melt down


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

ITA with the one poster who said that spirited children are different from other kids right from birth....
I thought there was something horribly wrong with me as a mother... my DD screamed and cried constantly, always had to be stimulated, always needed her way, or no way -- right from birth?! -- would never, could never be coerced into ANYthing... my MIL, who has been a teacher for 25 years, can't even do child psychology or reverse psychology on her because she can literally see right through it!







She calls our "bluff" every... single... time...
ITA, Piglet, that punishment seems to be about upping the ante, upping the ante, upping the ante... I will admit that one time, about a year ago, I slapped my DD's thigh. She giggled hysterically and continued the behavior.... this time, she did it with more glee and laughter than she had been doing it before!!! Once I wiped the tears outta my eyes, I saw how totally ludicrous the traditional forms of "punishment" are.
Darshani - to make a long story short, power struggles don't work with kids like these







You can threaten, count, take privileges away... it really doesn't work. Take a look at my two threads here and you'll see what I mean... when my DD gets like that, and we have somewhere we have to be... ie, the doctor's office... I will start out really "light". I will sit there, file my nails, look through my planner, whatever. If she doesn't get bored from this reaction, I tell her she needs to choose whether she wants to do her carseat or if I should do it for her. I explain how we have to be there on time because....... then ask my question very calmly again. If she still refuses, I pick her up and put her in and we are on our way. I make light talk, discuss what we'll be doing after our appt., whatever, but I try to not let the screaming and yelling effect me. After you go through this for a while, she'll give up. Trust me


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Okay mommies, yesterday was dd's bday and I tried very hard to be patient, nice, and did a lot of fake smiling when I felt like scolding. I wanted it to be a good day for us. Dh took off work and we had a small family party for her, took her to IMAX, and then to YMCA childcare in the evening while dh worked out.

Like once she was trying to climb in my lap in a rough way. Not to snuggle but to bounce on me. I told her if she wasn't going to be nice she was going to be tickled. So she got tickled. Laughed but was frustrated and kept trying. I kept tickling. She got tired of trying and went on to other things after awhile.

We had a few more small power struggles and I tried very hard to give her a choice about and most of the time she chose the right thing. Once I did have to take her out of the barstool for standing on it. Gave her a choice to sit down or I would take the chair away, and I did the next time. She cried, tried and failed to drag the chair back to the bar. Said sorry. I explained what happened again to her and then paid no attention to the crying. It fizzled out in 2 min. after she realized it was not changing anything.

Resisted the carseat after the movie. She was carrying her new My Little Pony in her hand. I told her again that she could sit in her chair, or I would hold her Pony for her. She refused so I took the Pony. She cried, I said get in the chair and she did, then got her Pony back. Not sure what we would have done without the Pony but anyway, we didn't have to resort to forcing her into the seat. I think I may carry some toys/books in the car and tell her when she gets in the seat she can choose one. See if that works.

So NO time outs yesterday at all!! None so far today either. I'm really trying and she's responding so well. I think she was as tired of a grumpy mommy as I was tired of a defiant toddler. Hope it lasts. And thanks so much for the support and encouragement!

Darshani


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm glad you're feeling less grumpy, and like you're making more of a connection with your daughter. Those things are important. I have some concerns, however, about some of the methods you've employed instead. They may "work", for now anyway, but taking someone's possession away from them if they don't do what you say doesn't strike me as respectful. Likewise, tickling can be a fun game or it can be a physical intrusion on someone's body, and it didn't sound like your daughter was having fun. Maybe I'm wrong, but I probably would have just stood up to end the rough game, or something like that.

As far as the bar stool, could you have turned that "no" into a "yes"? Maybe you could have stood next to her in case she fell, or held a hand if she was okay with that? And you can tell her what you're doing - "That's a pretty tall stool, I'll be here so if you fall I can catch you and you'll be safe." - and maybe eventually she'll come get you to stand near her when she goes to climb on something tall, so she'll be safe. Rain did that at 2ish or 3ish, while other kids her age tended to wait until their parents' backs were turned and then scarmble up.

Dar


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## pixie-n-hertwoboys (Aug 17, 2003)

nak- darshani, glad it was a little easier for you! i forgot to mention that for the carseat issue I always keep a bckpack of "special" toys in the car so if he sits down fast he gets the toys. seems to work.... now the issue is getting IN the car and not running through the yard terrorizing the cat.

I wish i had someone walking behind me reminding me of all these great ideas everyone has given!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:

but taking someone's possession away from them if they don't do what you say doesn't strike me as respectful. Likewise, tickling can be a fun game or it can be a physical intrusion on someone's body, and it didn't sound like your daughter was having fun.
Look, I was trying. I'm not perfect. If this had happened a week ago I would have forced her into the carseat, and put her in time-out for hurting me. And probably sat there holding the door shut for the entire 2 minutes too. Instead, it ended peacefully. I turned it into her choice. If she chose to jump on me she got tickled. If she had a problem with that she can choose (and she did) to move out of the way and find some other way to entertain herself.

As far as the bar stool thing, she's been doing this for ages. I don't have time or energy to stand there while she eats although it's a lovely idea. She takes forever to eat sometimes. Actually for a time when she was younger we put the stools in the garage but now we feel she's old enough to learn how to use it right or lose the chance of sitting in it. We don't let her stand on the table or kitchen chairs either.

Remember, I'm almost 8 mos. pg. I just don't have the energy to always be standing up to get her off me or standing next to her chair. I was on bedrest for about 6 weeks and am just now getting back into the swing of things, slowly. My hips hurt and legs are weak so I can't stand up or walk for long periods of time, still getting stronger.

I don't mean to come off sounding grouchy and defensive here, but I guess I just know my limits. I still feel like I did better than was doing last week. No time outs in 1.5 days is quite an achievement. She's also not fighting me as much because I'm holding my ground.

She wanted cake for lunch today. I offered her some healthy choices and she cried for cake and stomped her foot. Normally I would have very little patience for this and would have snapped back or something. It probably would have resulted in me making a sandwich for her and her throwing it at me, and then a time out for that. Instead I said, "Abi, cake is not a food. It's a dessert. You need to eat some food. If you don't want a sandwich or noodles, what do you want?" She said, "A banana." Good, problem solved, no major power struggles, and we are both happy.

I'm being more consistent too, as is dh after a long talk the other night. I hope it lasts, I'm afraid to hope. But it's def. more peaceful in our house, and I'll get better at this as time goes on. I was literally beaten as a child, CPS took me away from my parents twice. So with this kind of background I'm extremely proud that I've never, ever laid a hand on my child, as has sometimes been my first impulse. But I wanted to do better than that. It's a learn-as-you-go process and I'm glad you all are here for me.









Darshani


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Oh Darshani!! You're doing a SUPER job!!

Please don't feel bad. I'm sure Dar was not trying to pick on you. I know that I've been reading this thread with so much interest. I feel like we're all in a big classroom and YOU, Darshani, have generously volunteered to be our "guinea pig". I am SURE that Dar wasn't trying to pick on you, but to explain to the "class" of eager thread-readers how some of the things you did might be changed.

You are amazing and patient and so wonderful a mother to be willing to bare it all for us and learn along with us!!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Darshani, you are doing a great job with your beautiful, bright spirited daughter. The challenges you face every day with a spirited child are greater than most people face- spirited children ARE different-- and you are doing a wonderful job to never have laid a hand on your child and to a great, understanding mom in spite of the challenges.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

You did fine! I often offer my son something to hold once he is in his seat. In fact, it has become habit for me to walk out with something for him in my hands. "When you are in your seat, you may have your cup of cheerios." Or toy car. Or whatever. Sometimes, if I have nothing else, I unsnap my housekeys from my car keys and offer him my house keys!!! LOL.


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## pixie-n-hertwoboys (Aug 17, 2003)

You don't need to defend yourself here Darshani. Being 8 mos pg you have every right to be like that. I think whatever means you do to achieve peace in your household is best for you. Raising kids (especially spirited ones) is a hit or miss ordeal - no pun intended! Really you don't know whats going to work until its tried and tested. So I think doing the tickling thing worked just fine as it got the result you wanted.

You are a wonderful woman and mommy to not have spanked your little one with the background you've had. I'm sure its challenging at times. So many people resort to the way they were treated as kids and it takes a strong person to turn that around.


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

Darshani, I have nothing to add except my support to you! The fact that you even try to do things better is amazing in my book and a sign of a wonderful mommy!

And happy birthday to Abi!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Day 3 with NO time-outs!!!! Wow, she's actually getting more and more cooperative just through me talking things over with her. Yeah, we've had some crying fits today when I was firm, but then I found strength in myself to try to change the subject with some humor. I also offered to rock her and give her sympathy even though she still didn't get what she wanted.

WOW, life is so much better around here with my attitude adjustment. Dh started barking at her and threatening time-outs and I was like, "Honey we are on a roll." So he got down to her level, touched her arm, made eye contact, and gave her 2 choices and she responded. I think it surprised him that she didn't fight and cooperated and hopefully that will inspire him to try to be more patient in the future.

Thanks again SO much for all the support and encouragement. It's amazing what a little patience on my part has done for our home life. I've been feeling better physically, that's part of it. Made it 31, almost 32 weeks pg. Doctor told me today he was secretly worried that I wouldn't be able to carry the pg this far but I have, and if all goes well may make it full term. Even if baby's born now she will be okay. Spend some time in NICU but probably be okay. Great news!

Darshani


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

That's great about the good news, Darshani! Yah! What a relief to know the baby will be ok. I remember passing that point, too.

This has been a very interesting thread - I was going to post the biggest thing I've learned, but I think you're realizing it - that discipline issues are pretty much a change in your OWN thinking and responses. Of course, we're going to have moods, and we're going to be inconsistent, but most often it's not our child's behaviour, but our response to it. If we have a plan ahead of time about how to deal with a situation it is much more likely to go well. Now, wouldn't we like to prevent all behavioural problems? Sure! But our goal is to teach acceptable alternatives, and it's not always going to prevent the probs, although it does often minimize them.

I liked Dar's suggestion of finding alternatives - I do this ALL the time with dd. Sometimes it's hard for me, who is still holding onto some punitive-minded things from my upbringing, b/c I feel like "she's getting away with stuff" and not directly obeying. I'm glad you've found that helpful, to give alternatives or two choices. It does become frustrating when my dd is indecisive, though, LOL!

As an example of alternatives - dd always needs cream on her bum (either b/c of a rash or b/c she wants it). This is fine, the part that drives me nuts is when she sticks her whole hand in it and wipes it everywhere, making my life more difficult. I tried warning her it was cold, I tried asking her to keep her hands up, etc. etc. - you know what worked? Her standing up, bending down and LOOKING at it before the dipe goes up - LOL! I think she just wanted to make sure it was there...end of power struggle (only took me about 9 mos. to figure that one out!!)

I'm also of the "get up off your butt" philosophy to get things done. When I find myself repeatedly asking her to stop something I realize that *I* need to make that happen, i.e., if she's banging the glass stereo doors open and shut I have to go over there and help her stop, sometimes physically moving her hands (not roughly, just helping her) while explaining what I need. Sometimes dangerous things, medicines and whatnot do need to be immediately removed, and she will be unhappy about that. We are not always going to be able to make our child happy, and that's something I've had to realize - just b/c my child is unhappy doesn't mean I'm punishing her. She may feel upset and angry, and that's ok! We have a screaming pillow to help mommy's ears.









The other thing I wanted to comment on is be sure to expect changes in your ability and tolerance - my parenting is directly influenced by how much sleep I've had the night before! Seriously. Also the time of the month, etc. In those situations, realize your patience is low and you may not be able to parent as ideally as you'd like. As you've already done, realize that you've made changes and improvements, and be able to move on.

I don't think the question has been answered, but TCS is a parenting philosophy called Taking Children Seriously. It is non-coercive. I don't know a whole lot about it except for a few people online whom I've met and a couple articles I've read. I parent non-punitively, which means I don't (or ideally don't) use punishments, shaming, yelling etc., but instead a lot of prevention, teaching acceptable alternatives, giving of limited choices, some experiencing of natural consequences (not for an infant/baby, though), etc. For those who are interested, see the yahoogroup PositiveParenting-Discipline. I, too, am constantly learning, but have found, like I said at the beginning, that the biggest change has been in ME.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by USAmma_
*Wow, she's actually getting more and more cooperative just through me talking things over with her.

Even if baby's born now she will be okay. Spend some time in NICU but probably be okay. Great news!

Darshani*
Great news about BOTH of your babies!!!! Good job Mama!!!


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## herstorian (Jul 9, 2003)

I'm joining the thred very late, after having learned a lot from all that's been discussed before. I think I may have some twists and variations on some earlier suggestions, for what they're worth.

Our child is younger-only 19 months. But we have found that for some tasks and procedures, it helps a lot to let one or more of her dolls or stuffed animals go through the motions first, with the child's help and inspection, of course. We're not sure why this helps-if it's the opportunity to see the whole picture and make sure that the operation is safe, or maybe it's just that it turns the whole endeavor into a game and so she's more inclined to be cooperative. If she's doubtful about some foods, monkey can be the royal tester and if he survives, maybe she'll try. Before she gets into her pjs, we'll change one of her doll's clothes. In the morning we reverse the process. For teeth brushing, we start out with me or dad, then we move onto a particular bear (bear has no visible teeth-it's all pretend) and only after bear do we start helping the child. Sometimes we return to bear several more times before child is done. She's using the toilet now, often, but usually it's one or two dolls first and then at least one duck before she's ready to hop on herself and we know that sometimes she wets while she's waiting in line behind the ducks. But we'd rather have that happen sometimes than have her stressed about the toilet. This may seem like it takes a lot more time-but, then again, so does chasing a child around the house with a toothbrush, which we've never had to do. Sometimes we badger the dolls and animals or play out little disasters with them-like "Don't fall in, Duck!" as duck slips part way down into the toilet and we catch her-or "Now, Bear, you know you have to open wider-wider, I say, you Bear, and you better listen to me." We exagerate and talk more forcefully to them then we ever would to her and she loves seeing them get bossed around and then, usually flies through the procedure with great good grace herself once the dolls or animals have made it through and caught all the flack and made all the mistakes&#8230;, and survived.

I don't know how we could translate this into a situation like that on the plane. She flies with one of her dolls. I could have lectured the doll strongly on plane safety and politeness, and have the doll talk back to me, but I don't know if that would work. Both parents being present, I may have offered for one to switch places with the passenger in front to take the blows-though that would have left that unfortunate person to still deal with the screaming in close proximity and left the other parent in the middle without a close ally. Hmmm, maybe I'd let that parent be dad. I'd rather be kicked in the kidneys than have to sit next to a melt-down. And, then I could pretend, a little, like it wasn't my kid at all! Just for a few seconds. Then, probably, I'd try to see if a game of peek-a-boo or "secret messages" or coded taps back and forth would bridge the divide and restore peace.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I have the attention span of a gnat today and haven't read the entire thread, but I have an idea.

For those mamas having trouble getting children to sit in carseats, try taking them to the car seat knowitall at your local police station. We sit in carseats for safety AND because it's the LAW. Maybe seeing an officer and getting praised by an officer will help your cause.


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## heythere heather (Apr 11, 2003)

Wow, what a lot of good ideas! I have to share what works for us with the carseat, because it's so darn effective, and yet so simple (yes, I know it won't work for every child, and Erik is only 2...)

Anyway, if I put him in his seat and he resists me, I take him out, snuggle him close and talk it through. "Erik, it's time to go to the store, and mom needs you to sit in Erik's seat. Are you ready?" if he says no, I tell him "I'll hold you until you're ready" At first, he would fight me, and I would tell him "I know you're frustrated, you don't want to get in. But it's time to go to the store, remember...so it's time to get in Erik's seat. Are you ready?" If he says no, I just start a commentary about the store "we're going to the store, to get yogurt, and applesauce, and bananas, and apples...are you ready?" If he says yes, and then fights me still, I just repeat until he's ready. Of course, he is spirited but not as high on persistence, so that helps, I know. But it's soooo effective for us! He doesn't really fight it much at all anymore, because he knows what to expect. (BTW, he's a BIG 2, so he is heavy...if it gets too much, I squat down and hold him...)

I love reading threads like this because I learn so many different ideas to try when we encounter similar problems.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Okay just another update. It was a rough weekend because dh was home and he is still learning to be consistent. She's still testing him big-time but he's following through. Left her behind when she wouldn't put her shoes on for an errand and boy did she cry hard, beat the door, etc. But she practically brought her shoes to him the next time he asked if she wanted to go.

I found a cute magnetic "Responsibility Chart" with many tasks on it that would apply to preschoolers. You can customize it and the tiles with the tasks all have pictures so pre-readers can understand them. Then as each task is completed the child can place a magnetic sticker in the right place. This thing has been great! She is so motivated to get those stickers. Now she is more than cooperating with picking up toys before bed, getting her pj's on, and brushing her teeth. The tooth brushing thing was a big struggle before. Not the actual brushing but her turning into a cat and mouse chase until she decided she was ready to brush.

There's one generic "be nice" one that covers everything from hitting to cooperating with the carseat, and a "sharing" one, and I have the power to remove those stickers if necessary and she has to earn them back. She hates that and all I have to do is ask if she wants me to remove the sticker if she doesn't get in her carseat and she scrambles right in. Not sure how long it will last but it's working great for now at least. At the end of the day if all of them are there across the column she gets a quarter for her bank. Thought I might want to start introducing allowance in a very simple and modest way. Perhaps in a couple weeks I'll take her to the store and she can buy some play-doh or paints or something.

Another thing is today I realized she's about outgrown the 5 pt. harness on her car/booster seat so I ran the regular seatbelt over it. Oh boy did she feel special. She said to me, "Mommy I'm growing bigger and bigger!" And gave no trouble at all. Probably because it's a new thing. Again we'll see how long that lasts.

Darshani


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## playfulmama (Apr 15, 2002)

Great thread... it has really helped me from feeling alone and frustrated with these issues.

You are doing amazing mama with your beautiful spirited dd and the new babe growing, almost ready to see the world!


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Its not an issue for you anymore Darshani, but for others with this problem what worked for the carseat for us was to rename it "the Thinking Chair" (from Blue's Clues). now he is excited to go to the car and THINK! He brings a little notebook and a crayon and we draw "clues" that we see along the way







Car rides have become fun for him. It won't last, none of the games do, but we started pointing out shapes and letters on signs at 12 months and progressed from there. We have gone through him giving us directions from place to place, his bear being seatbelted in next to him, silly song games, detouring to routes that had things he enjoyed (bridges, windmills, trains, etc), anything to keep the car ride new and exciting. It is a challenge to keep new ideas, but it has saved us from the constant battles over the carseat. He went from HATING the car and screaming constantly to loving it and looking forward to it.

Just thought I would throw that out there









Laurie


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

herstorian...

I have to agree. Sometimes, if I want DD to do something and she's a little slow getting moving, it really helps to take Elmo and Nadia (her dolly) and start them on the process, then she quite quickly runs to join in.









By the way


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## sarahwebb (Feb 12, 2002)

This has been a great thread to read--I've been struggling with DS (20 months) hitting and having fits when he doesn't get his way, so instead of sleeping (at 5 months pregnant with #2, that's a big concession), I sat down to read what the MDC crowd might have to say about it--I've learned so much and know I need to redirect my approach. Thanks to all of you!

It is trial and error, think and rethink but some key things have been said here:

1) Be consistent
2) A shift in the parent's attitude can make all the difference
3) Stay as calm as you can (often very hard!)

So glad things are getting better for you! You're doing great.

The one thing I would add is don't be afraid to do what you need to do to address your daughter's behavior in public. Many in our culture are not supportive of parents doing what is right for their children--I've even heard of strangers giving a child whatever they were throwing a fit to get in a store. People who would rather see you give in to your child than deal with the inconvenience of your child's response to not getting what she wants do not have your child's best interests at heart. They are more concerned with their own immediate convenience than helping you raise a child who can handle herself appropriately. There are probably many more silent bystanders who understand that the tantrum at the checkout line is better than giving the child the candy bar...

Best,
Sarah


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm relatively new to the GD forum but I wanted to first complain that I haven't been able to catch one of these great threads early enough to follow along thoroughly!







: Would someone PM me when a good one gets going? :LOL

OP, You are amazing! I'm so glad to hear that you were able to effectively change the situation for the better. That means that there's hope for us when things get rough.

My daughter is only 2 and 3months so we don't have quite the same challenges but I imagine some are coming&#8230;soon, which is why I'm here poking around.

I do have one thing to add. When it comes to "discipline" in public, I continue with whatever approach is working at home. I really think the public can/should deal with my dedication to being consistent with my child because not doing so is going to result in a more "poorly behaved" child down the road, kwim?

I hope you are feeling well.

Edited to add:

About the bribery, I do thing there are different ways of looking at bribery, furthermore, I think that some things should not even fall into that category. I tell my daughter she can take out some more toys after some other toys have been put back. This is not bribery IMO. I don't know if this is relevant (I know the example I used isn't great) but I thought I'd include it.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Well it hasn't been all sunny and perfect but dd and I and dh are def. making great progress. I'm still tired, grumpy and pregnant. Prodomal labor isn't helping at all.









But overall our family is a lot happier. Dd has become much less aggressive with other kids recently too, perhaps because we are trying to model good behavior to her and encouraging her if she is good. But like I said I still have my bad days and so does she.

I had to put the 5 pt. harness back on the carseat because we had a couple days where she thought it would be fun to get out of her seat while I was driving. I checked the manual and we have 2 more inches still. Another thing was something my doula showed me during a visit to my house when Abi was being difficult about the carseat (which is less and less often). Instead of me counting to three as a warning, it's now a game. Let's see if you can make it to your seat before I get to three. I keep the door closed, then say, "Mark, get set, GO!" and open the door and she scrambles in giggling. This works well for reminding her to use the potty or putting on clothes too.

Darshani
almost 35 weeks-- in the home stretch!


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## SmilesALot (Nov 20, 2001)

Hello Darshani

Thanks for starting off this very useful thread and following it with updates on what worked and what did not. That takes a lot of time and effort when you are in your final stretch of pregnancy.

I have a ds who is checking his limits too (started after he turned 3 yrs) though i would not call him defiant. I have also experienced that fighting back, yelling or threatening (i am very weak when it comes to being punitive) only seems to encourage them to up the ante!! Yes, it is very difficult to be calm all the time but the cooperation and the pleasant feeling that prevails at home makes it worth putting all our energies into the positive methods!!

Thanks to all the moms here who are sharing their wisdom here in this thread. It really helps make the world a better place.

Love and Peace!


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

My...I think your doula must be a very wise, wise woman


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## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

Hey Darshani, you may not remember me, but I "met" you over on Babycenter, I think. One time I sent you some Dr. Sears audio tapes a nd a diaper or diaper paraphernalia, but it never got there (during the 9/11 attacks). Anyhoo, my dd turned 3 in Sept. and I wanted to say we just got that same Responsibility Chart yesterday from Target! It's pretty cool, my dd likes it and all, but nothing like your dd! She gets a very proud look on her face when I whisper to her "Thank you for not whining when I told you no ice cream, let's go put a magent on you chart!"
I have to whisper b/c we just had a friend and her 2.5 yr old dd move in with us, so any fun that can't be shared, we keep quiet! That is our current challenge- dd has an instant sister, who is only 8 mths younger than her. She is great, but it is a big change from only me and her and her having full run of the house, to 2 other people, 1 of whom is serious competition and who she must share many of her toys with.
I wanted to also offer you encouragement on the sharing/playing nicely thing I think you mentioned. My dd seemed to have adopted the mantra "What's mine is MINE ALL MINE, and what's yours is also MINE ALL MINE!!!!" at around age 2.5, and in the last month or less she has suddenly been so so so so so much better about this! Good thing, considering our new roommates!!
I was really worried b/c she could be so rude to other kids, and nothing I did seemed to help. But, all of a sudden she improved a whole lot, she is like a diiferent child. She certainly has issues with sharing still (mostly with her new "sister"), but it's not all the time and she really likes to share her things most of the time. So, good luck and maybe your dd will be out of that phase soon too (if not already, I remember reading that several weeks ago).
Sounds like you are coming up with some good ideas to gain cooperation- my dd also loves the "see how fast you can do such-and-such". Best wishes for you and family!
Sara


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