# What are we afraid of??



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ok, this is sorta a rant.

I just don't get all the repressed attitudes regarding sexuality in the world today. We are born sexual beings from birth. Sexuality is what helps create people afterall. So why are we as a culture afraid to talk about ourselves as the sexual beings that we are? Why are we afraid to address sexual issues with our kids? Why do we think that we can pretend that we aren't sexual beings until either we hit puberty, become 18 or get married?? Why are Gov officials that discuss or advocate masturbation fired?? Why do we think that we can ignore the sexual beings that our kids are until they are adults and then expect them to have a satisfying sex life??

This all seems like the head in the sand approach to life. Lets pretend that kids don't have sex, or that small kids touch themselves, or that certain kinds of sexual expression are bad. I really don't understand this at all. In fact I find the whole thing extremely sad. Sad that people are being raised to be ashamed of who they are, or what they want or how they feel. The sadder part is that this suppression is supported in much of society.

Why must moms hint softly, or be afraid (as if something is wrong) when they have questions about how to handle their toddler who has just discovered their genitals? In fact, why don't we all know the answers like we would if such things were able to be talked about freely and without shame.

Why are certain sexual acts not discussed in "polite conversation"? Or not appropriate? I know my parents never really discussed sexual orientation with me. Why the implied assumption that our kids will be straight? How many of us are actually talking with our kids about the complexities of sexual orientation?

Why must a new nursing mother have to worry in silence as so many do that something is wrong with them if they have any pleasurable feelings at all during breastfeeding? Why do we worry about the enjoyment of holding our babies close to us and feeling skin to skin contact? We are so paranoid of being judged as sick by a repressed society that a time of love and joy is overshadowed by shame and worry and fear.

When will we ever embrace ourselves for the perfect and beautiful beings we are and all our myriad ways of expressing it??

not soon enough, IMO!


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## 1boy1girl (Jun 3, 2003)

to you! ITA!!

I truly think if we weren't so sexually repressed as a society we would have a lot less rape, molestation and other kinds of sexual violence.


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## L.J. (Nov 20, 2001)

I have no answers to your questions and have thought about all of it alot too.
I agree, it's sad. Why do we live in fear that someone may misread a perfectly innocent thing & then be persecuted for it? It's sad. I keep hoping that when my children are parents these things will no longer be issues. It would be great if it happened sooner than that!


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## Kim (Nov 19, 2001)

Arduinna,

Have you read the book "Harmful to Minors" by Judith Levine? Extremely interesting book -- discusses the historical, emotional and physiological complexities that surround sexuality. The text is so open and honest Levine had a difficult time publishing the book. Most publishers were scared away.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Thanks for the replies.

Kim, I haven't read the book. Thanks for the recommendation. I will look around and see if I can find it.

edited to add, I found the book at Amazon. It looks amazing, I can't wait to read it. And the reviews were awesome too!!


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## 1boy1girl (Jun 3, 2003)

I just found that book on BN.com. It looks great! I'm gonna see if my local BN has it!







Thanks for the rec!


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

I so agree. On the Why is the person who recommends masturbation fired? Just remember why circumcision became mainstream in the USA-to STOP MASTURBATION! (All led by the cornflake man, Dr. Kellog, really!) We are so backwards, we throw sex in our kids faces while yelling its wrong to do. It's called the nasty, the dirty, etc.

Breasts are no longer for nurture, they are sex toys. I am sure the formula companies would agree. We are backwards....


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

We live in a country founded by Puritans. Sexual fear/repression has pervaded our culture ever since.

They were good for one thing though - they gave us the first amendment!


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

I agree with all of you. I remember as a teenager the hypocracy of it all baffled and infuriated me. I mean here I was surrounded by popular media flaunting sexual images in my face. Clothes that exposed everything, sexual images everywhere. Yet a society that said girls that had sex "too much"were sluts, but if you waited too long you were a prude. A school that only taught that abstinence was how to avoid pregnancy. Made condoms hard for a teenager to find. I live in a "liberal" state, yet CA law says that a girl is not mature enough to choose who to have sex with until 18, I mean come on MA says 16. I mean the whole first 3 years of my relationship with my DH (BF at the time) he could have been thrown in jail because I was under 18 and he was over. They even called our relationship stauatory rape. I was raped in real life and was furious that they would put my relationship with him under the same term as true rape. I was mature enough to live on my own, work and go to school paying for all my own bills but yet my government said I was not able to decide who I could sleep with. Oh but if he had been some horny immature lying pimpley faced jock then it would have been acceptable. We are surrounded by sex in the media, yet it is not okay to practice the act. Oh and breasts are our nation's sexual icon so heaven forbid some mom pull them out to feed her baby because that is perverse. okay enough pregnant ranting.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by annakiss_
*...

They were good for one thing though - they gave us the first amendment!*
Actually, they didn't. A bunch of Scots who never even got to America...like David Hume...indirectly contributed that. Over here it was probably Shay's Rebellion (Daniel Shay, western Mass., NOT a Puritan at all. I think he had been a former drinking partner of Ethan Allan at one point.) that could be held responsible for it. The Bill of Rights was in response to concerns about widespread insurrection after the Revolution.


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## nernie (Jul 24, 2002)

my four year old dd was discussing with my neighbor (who just had a baby) how the baby grew in her womb and came out her vagina, wasn't that neat?! and my neighbor freaked out (politely) and wondered why in the world anyone would have told dd that and that she couldn't imagine telling her daughters (11, 9, and 5) that "kind of thing". Where are they going to learn it? From a relative stranger at school? Their first boyfriend? Please. I don't know why we are like this as a nation, but it is frightening.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

That is so awesome about your dd!







mom!!!

lol, yeah I can just see your neighbor. I remember when my bf dd asked what is that baby doing when I was nursing, lol


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

My mom would say (when a sexy scene would come up on TV)"Oh, that's so dirty!" As a kid, I wondered WHY it was "dirty". She won't let me BF at her dinner table and tells me it's time to wean DS3.

I am of the opinion, sex ain't so dirty when it produces such glorious individuals such as my kiddos and myself! BFing is normal at any age! It's all about personal image!


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## El Casey S (Apr 7, 2002)

When I was in my late teens early twenties the book, "Our Bodies, Ourselves" came out. And they were openly talking about body parts. In discussing the book I found out that my room mate hated the word vagina. Which I MUCH preferred to all the other profane words - so I went on a campaign to cure her of her Phobia. I would work it into conversations, or sneak up behind her and whisper it in her ear! :LOL she would jump literaly into the air when I would do that! It was so much fun!









But it is amazing the fears of talking about the sexuality of humans - and children. DS was obviously enjoying his penis from very young and recently I was asked adivice about a little girl in the kndergarten who would sit on the edge of her chair and hike on leg up and bounce on the other. It was obvious to me that she was masterbating, and the teacher asked me if I had any idea what she was doing!







: Anyway, we talked about it and it will be worked out with the parents, but I thought it was so weird that the teacher had not idea that a 2 1/2 - 3 yr old girl would do something like that!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

unless i totally misunderstand........which maybe.

let your kids be kids.
dont take their childhood and replace it with sexual crap!

i am a sexual abuse survivor and it leaves you feeling guilty and awful for your whole life.

i hate the idea of kids being exposed to sexual stuff.

maybe i misread. if so . sorry.

im gonna go take a shower now
i feel dirty from reading this post.

maybe adding some to my ignore list if i am reading correctly.

ICK


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## 1boy1girl (Jun 3, 2003)

Sleepies,
I am a sex abuse survivor myself and we are not talking about exposing our kids to porn or anything like that. We are talking about having a HEALTHY attitude about sex for our kids. You know, teaching them the proper names for their body parts and teaching them not to be ashamed to use the proper terms. Teaching them ABOUT sex when they are old enough to ask and things like that.

We aren't talking popping in an x-rated movie. We are talking about teaching a healthy respect for the body and sexuality. Kids ARE sexual creatures, otherwise we wouldnt' see little boys and girl with their hands in their pants.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Exactly what 1boy1girl said.

I'm sorry for what happened to you sleepies. No one here is talking about sexual abuse. In fact, I feel that making kids feel dirty about their inherant sexuality is a form of sex abuse. Examples of this IMO would be telling kids they will go to hell for touching themselves. I think posts like yours and and any people who might have read this thread and not posted on it but left disgusted because they thought it was something it wasn't are all perfect examples of why sexuality needs to be talked about more not less.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

just to be perfectly clear so there is no misunderstanding ( it is truley a sad state of affairs that I even have to post this)

NOTHING IN ANY OF MY POSTS REFERS TO SEX WITH CHILDREN
OR SEX ABUSE

I was refering to the fact that teens can and do have sex and that small children do masturbate.

And my reference to "certain sexual acts" was about the act of A.S. (as we have come to call it here, since the full name seems to be taboo) I was also refering to homosexual sex.

I hope that clears things up.

edited to ad that if anyone can't figure out what A.S. is feel free to pm me.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I'm so confused. I reread every post and just don't see anything wrong with any of them. What was there to misinterpret? No one said anything about teaching masturbation, but talking about it. No one said anything about inappropriate behavior against or among children, but rather that children are sexual beings. I don't think this implies that children have or should have sex or even explore sexuality with someone else. I think that the whole discussion was about discussion. About healthy attitudes towards sex and sexuality. I think that misinterpretting what was said here is exactly the issue being discussed - that we as a culture have some serious issues with sex and sexuality. I think that to misinterpret sexuality as sex may be the mistake? I don't know. I'm quite confused.







:


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Anna, I think you might be right. I think that the word sexuality has been misunderstood or misinterpreted to mean sex act. The two are not one in the same. It never dawned on me someone might not see the difference. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

and yes, i did read and not reply, then it was bugging me at night.
so i wrote.

i wont be ignoring anyone.

i am still a little bothered, but not nearly as much.

thanks


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm glad that you feel better and understand more of what we mean. And I'm happy that you posted and asked instead of assuming.

It is hard because some terms aren't really acceptable to be used (which is part of my rant). If we could talk openly everywhere there would less misunderstanding all around.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Why must moms hint softly, or be afraid (as if something is wrong) when they have questions about how to handle their toddler who has just discovered their genitals?
My ds has been pulling and prodding at himself almost since day one. He always seems to have his hand in his diaper. I never thought about it one way or another until my mother said, "Some people might call CPS about a thing like that".







I'm not sure if that was her round about way of telling me she thought it was wrong and I should stop him or that I should be careful about what other people saw. I was too shocked to ask her what she meant.

When he is old enough to understand, I will tell him that is something people do in private and that he may go into the bedroom or bathroom to do it. But, I really want him to know his body is okay and touching it is okay.

This might be TMI. I didn't know about masturbating until after I met my dh (he told me







) I was to scared and ashamed to explore on my own. Quite honestly, I really wish I had known when I was a teen. I was encredibily horny and made a lot of stupid mistakes because of that.







:


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Great post, Arduinna. I couldn't agree more!









Kylix


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

first you guys are saying that proper names are ok to use with children and masturbation is cool with children, but i remember a couple of months ago i posted that my dd takes a bath with her grandfather, who has been more like a father to her, and you guys flipped! and in order to take a bath with her grandfather they both have to be naked, and God forbid that was n't proper so make up your minds........get it straight


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Jannen, I suggest you take up your beef from another thread there and with whoever said it.

BTW, no one has said masturbation is cool WITH children (meaning adults and kids doing it together) that is sick, period.

Mel, I can't believe your mom said that about CPS. I think you made some great points about masturbation and teens having partnered sex (couldn't think of a better term) and also regarding knowing your own body.









Thanks Kylix


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

you guys are saying that it is ok if children masturbate


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

this is a very complex topic. on the issue of orientation, i've become really aware of how much society projects a "straight" preference--even on kid's shows. i make a point of not favoring one orientation over another with my ds. i want him to be happy, and if it's with a man or woman doesn't matter.

and in some countries in Europe, masturbation is seen as a part of a "normal" sex life. the teen pregnancy rates in those countries are much lower than that of the US. i think that speaks for itself.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I can't speak for everyone else but IMO masturbation is perfectly normal in human beings. Hope that answers the question.

sexual orientation, glad we got there. ITA, that we all automatically assume heterosexuality. I hadn't thought about kids tv shows but that is an interesting point. I think it would be healthy if shows that dealt with relationships ( like teens dating) showed a vider variety of sexual orientation.


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## Zhlake (Mar 19, 2003)

ITA that our society is very afriad of sexuality. I still remember something we talked about in French class when I was a freshman in high school, and it has affected how I parent DS. The teacher talked about how nudity there was not a big deal. None of us could believe how parents would allow their children to see nudity on TV. The teacher stated that parents there sheltered their children from violence, not nudity, and how here that is backwards. I thought how strange that was for us to do that. Why do we allow children to see thousands of images of violence throughout the years, but cringe if a child sees a pair of naked breasts. It really is quite strange in my opinion.

So with DS, I have a made a point of not making nudity a big deal. If someone in a movie is naked (or partially so) in a nongratidous way I am not going to jump up and fast forward it or anything. In fact many times we watch it without any comment at all. Violence is another issue and something I try to avoid as much as possible. Obviously many of you are going to have similar philophies as thisl.....but it is strange that as a society we are more afraid, it seems of breasts than guns.


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## El Casey S (Apr 7, 2002)

Over here there are naked women on posters quite often - for like commercials for shower gels, etc . . . it amazes the Germans that the US Americans get all riled up about nudity but seem to have no qualms whatsover about blowing up /shooting etc - and other forms of violence - but whoa - no nudity that's not good!!







Masterbation IS normal in children - how we deal with it it determines a lot about their furture sexual experiences - if they feel their bodies are "dirty" or not. Masterbating in public should be taught from early on that it is a private thing, and this little girl in the Kindergarten has a problem - it just amazed me that the sexual taboo was so strong that the teacher couldn't (wouldn't?) recognize it when it was right in her face! I think it is OK for children to masterbate - it is natural - but they should be taught that it is private. When I notice DS has an erection I just ignore it. He is also embarrassed by it. Poor guys - they can't keep it so private as girls can. But I would never teach him that it is wrong. THAT, I believe (as well as most psychologists), is really wrong - teaching our children that parts of them are bad and wrong and evil







.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*you guys are saying that it is ok if children masturbate*
Yes, I am saying it is ok and in fact healthy for kids to masturbate.
If I have a girl, I will tell her about masturbation. In the same vein as telling her about menstruation and sex, I will tell her that it is ok to touch herself.
I will mention it to my son, also, but I don't think boys have any trouble discovering masturbation.









mshollyk, I have caught myself assuming a hetero orientation for ds in my thoughts and words. I think it's strange because I have many gay and bi friends and I don't assume anything about adults I meet. I'm consciously changing the words I use in my thoughts and by the time he is old enough to understand, I think I'll have changed my ways.

Zhlake, I know what you mean about the difference between sheltering kids from violence rather than sex. I remember when Titanic came out on video and some stores offered to edit out the scene with the naked breast. That scene didn't bother me at all and I wouldn't mind kids of any age seeing it. But, I would not want kids under about 13 seeing an entire group of people being kept locked below decks to drown simply because they were poor. I'd want them to be old enough to be able to talk about why that happened.

Speaking of sex in movies, when I was 10 or so, my family went to the movie "Coming Home" with Jane Fonda and Jon Voight. My mom made me cover my eyes during the sex scenes. Years later, in my late 20's, my mom and I rented that movie. I didn't remember any of it, except the sex scenes!


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Or why can't I just let my 3 yo dd run around our yard naked without feeling like she should cover up--because of what the neighbors wil think. Or worse, what if some sicko sees her as a plaything.

Jesse


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## memama (Apr 18, 2002)

I can appreciate some of what is being suggested, especially in being honest, open and forthright with your children about sex. But some of the other directions of thought have stirred up a slew of questions in my mind.

Where do you draw the line? It seems to me that the measuring stick is "If it feels good do it" with a bit of education thrown in to make sure no one is abused.

If your 10 year old daughter, having been raised openly and honestly about sex and sexuality, came to you and said she wanted to give sexual intercourse a try with, say, the nice teenager next door, what would be your response?

What about incest? If sex is healthy and meant to be enjoyed and expressed in a myriad of ways who's to say that a parent should not fondle his/her little boy to show him the pleasures of sex? Or take away a daughter's virginity?

If your children asked to watch while you and your partner had sex would you feel comfortable with that? If they wanted to join you would that be acceptable?

Why is it we don't have sexual intercourse in public? Or is that just another example of our sexual repressiveness?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I think you need to reread the WHOLE thread.







:







:


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## 3boys4us (Mar 7, 2002)

I've read this whole thread and am deeply interested in it. I have always thought that US popular culture is hypocritical in sexual matters. How can we idolize a Pamela Anderson while totally panicking over our relatively high rate of teenage pregancies (at least for the industrialzed world)? We worry about the images our children see while bombarding them with sexual imgaes selling anything?

Anyway, my kids have always been pretty free to discuss sexual things with us. I rarely bothered to dress them when it was hot out and they were babies and they ran around nude for a while. Even now they like to run around without clothes after a bathe or whatever. While I recall they all went through a period where they discovered their penises, I don't recall any cause for concern. It was a period that was relatively short.

Quote:

you guys are saying that it is ok if children masturbate
Certainly. I cannot see why it would not be okay for them to masturbate. Perhaps if they did it to excess or in public ....

Quote:

Where do you draw the line? It seems to me that the measuring stick is "If it feels good do it" with a bit of education thrown in to make sure no one is abused.

If your 10 year old daughter, having been raised openly and honestly about sex and sexuality, came to you and said she wanted to give sexual intercourse a try with, say, the nice teenager next door, what would be your response?

What about incest? If sex is healthy and meant to be enjoyed and expressed in a myriad of ways who's to say that a parent should not fondle his/her little boy to show him the pleasures of sex? Or take away a daughter's virginity?

If your children asked to watch while you and your partner had sex would you feel comfortable with that? If they wanted to join you would that be acceptable
I guess I would have to turn this around and ask you why it is upsetting to have children who are encouaged to be open about sexual questions and matters with their parents. I have not seen and heard of any child who may the kind of questions you are posing. Do you know of any?

Equating sexual awareness in children IMO is not the same as encouraging them to go out and do it for themselves, or even worse make them party to sexual abuse. Many of your arguements have been used for the reasons for circ'ing or against bf (or heaven forbid, ebf).

My hope in being open with my kids is to PREVENT them from abuse, or an unwanted relationship. To encourage them to realize that sex and sexuality is special and not to be dismissed.

Someone mentioned earlier about recognizing that they may be raising a child who may not be hetereo. Dh and I careful about this as well. I want my kids to feel free to be whomever they wish to be and to me being open to the possibility that one of my kids is gay is very important.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by memama_
*If your 10 year old daughter, having been raised openly and honestly about sex and sexuality, came to you and said she wanted to give sexual intercourse a try with, say, the nice teenager next door, what would be your response?

What about incest? If sex is healthy and meant to be enjoyed and expressed in a myriad of ways who's to say that a parent should not fondle his/her little boy to show him the pleasures of sex? Or take away a daughter's virginity?

If your children asked to watch while you and your partner had sex would you feel comfortable with that? If they wanted to join you would that be acceptable?

Why is it we don't have sexual intercourse in public? Or is that just another example of our sexual repressiveness?*
Sex between adults and children is unacceptable. Which is what most of your questions are about. Why is it unacceptable? Because a child doesn't have the experience or understanding of what a healthy sexual relationship is. And an adult can use this naivite (sp?) to manipulate the child into doing something they wouldn't normally seek out. The hard part is I think the age of an adult is a blurry line between 16 and 21. I've known 16 yos that were mature enough to support themselves and raise a family. I've also known 21 yos that couldn't make themselves dinner without burning it or remember to use a condom.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

*If your 10 year old daughter, having been raised openly and honestly about sex and sexuality, came to you and said she wanted to give sexual intercourse a try with, say, the nice teenager next door, what would be your response?*
Well, first of all I'd be delighted that she felt she could come to me and tell me that. How many children raised in sexually prohibitive homes would ever broach the subject with their parents? Lord knows my mother knew very little about what I was doing behind closed doors, and had even less input into it. I might have appreciated her wisdom had she been able to share any of it.

Then...me and my 10 year old would talk about why she wanted to have sex with that boy, what she thought would come of it, etc. I would listen, not get angry, and I would validate her feelings. And she would probably listen very carefully to my reasons against it (you'll get hurt emotionally, you could get pregnant, you want it for the wrong reasons, etc) because she knows that I have no problem with sex. There is no "agenda" behind my wisdom. Probably she isn't ready for it and wants *someone* to give her a good reason to follow her gut, rather than peer pressure.

If my daughter were older, in a good relationship, and seemed mature enough, I'd probably go with her to Condomania and pick out some funky prophylactics.









Quote:

*What about incest? If sex is healthy and meant to be enjoyed and expressed in a myriad of ways who's to say that a parent should not fondle his/her little boy to show him the pleasures of sex? Or take away a daughter's virginity?*
Incest is unnatural and unhealthy. Nobody even needs to argue that incest is acceptable. It is pathologic. Sex is to be shared between mutually willing partners. Incest is not that.

Quote:

*If your children asked to watch while you and your partner had sex would you feel comfortable with that? If they wanted to join you would that be acceptable?*
That is unlikely to ever happen. You have natural instincts that direct you to what is appropriate sex and what isn't (which is why incest is very rare in the animal kingdom). If your child asked the above, you'd be wanting to see a therapist. Children ARE sexual creatures and, as such, possess the same internal check system that adults have. They *know* when certain types of touching are "bad" - they don't even need to be taught that.



*Quote:*

Why is it we don't have sexual intercourse in public? Or is that just another example of our sexual repressiveness?
Same reason we don't poop and pee in public. Same reason we don't share our deepest feelings with every person we meet on the street. Some things are of a private nature, and sex is one of them. That doesn't make it "bad".


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm getting the sense that things are getting pulled waaaay out of context. Children are sexual beings. This is why very young babies find their genitals and touch them. It feels good. It is supposed to feel good. Children also naturally feel uncomfortable with sexual acts comitted against them. I know I did. This is right. If my daughter came to me about wanting to have sex with someone I would praise God on high that she felt comfortable enough with me to discuss it. The same with my boys. We are teachers and guides in the rocky path of life. If you can't ask your guide a question, why bother following them in the first place?







:


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## Zhlake (Mar 19, 2003)

I think this thread demonstrates our societies problem with being open about sexuality with our children. Some people feel like if we are open about sexuality than we open ourselves up to things like incest and early sexual experiences. There is a difference between being open about sex in a appropriate and inappropriate way. Can we not differntiate between that in our society???


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## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

I think this thread has made tangents into several different
thread topics.
It might be worth it to end this discussion and start new ones
in appropriate forums. Begin one in Childhood Years for
children and sexuality and start a new one here for the
broad topic of Americans and sexual hangups. (or something
like that anyway)








This way I think the discussions can become more of what the OP had
in mind!
thx


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Missy I appreciate your view, I just feel that the all these issues are tightly interwoven. Societal expectations directly effect how children are raised and I think acknowledging the link is an important step in effecting change.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm with Arduinna.

I think breaking this into sub topics would dilute it.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Then perhaps Parenting Issues is a better place for it as a general "raising children with a healthy sexual attitude" discussion. I'll move it over there now.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

well, I don't see this as just a parenting issue either. In fact I think it could just as easily belong in activism since that forum is a place to "stand up for a cause". This is an issue about all of society and certainly is not limited to parents.

People without children also have to deal with these issues.

While yes, we as parents can make a difference in the next generation the issue is for everyone. Which is why I put it in TAO.


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## amymarie (Jun 21, 2002)

These are issues I often get angry about...I totally agree with Arduinna...I remember when dd first touched herself and my dp reaction was to tell her no...I had to educate him and now he also realizes its natural and nothing wrong with her doing it as long as its in private...as with most toddlers she stopped doing it on her own...I get so scared sometimes when I think of her growing up and all the crazy things she is going to have to learn and deal with...I wonder if some of you mamas of older children have any words of wisdom on how you have taught your children healthy attitudes about sexuality.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I was raised in a very open household sexually - remember my mom showing me what everything was with a mirror, remember seeing my dad naked, all no big deal. Very frank discussions all around, no censorship etc. Interestingly, me and all my siblings (even my brother) were late loosing our virginity (me at 23). My friends lost thiers at an average age of 15/16, and I was the ONLY one in my group of friends to graduate high school a virgin. So no, open sexuality doesn't lead to promiscuity or incest etc. I never even masterbated (though my mom said I did quite a bit as a todler) - not because I felt it wrong-but because I thought it felt silly.

Neither, however, does it lead to happy adult sexuality. I am pretty hung-up and repressed - though no more than other adults I know.

Ok, so here is a question. My friend was 5 when her 7 year old brother showed her how to do "it" (intercourse). Thier parents walked in on them and screamed and beat them with hangers.

What would y'all do in that situation?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

In no particular order...

*Masturbation is a wonderfully healthy activity
*All about the clitoris, location and function of (some sex ed classes do not mention it at all)
*That she never, ever has to do anything sexually with anyone until she really wants to
*That if she wants to, it does not mean she is a bad person with evil thoughts
*That there are no "sluts" - nothing is wrong with sexual behavior between consenting people
*That adults never have the right to be sexual with children, no matter what
*That her body is perfect and sacred, and other people do not have a right to it
*All about birth control and abortion - if I cannot answer her questions, I will refer her to an unbiased person who can
*That 40% of teen girls get pregnant each year and that if she turns out to be one of them, she can do whatever she wants in regards to parenting, abortion or adoption, but I will also teach her how she can be less likely to become one of these stats
*That teen girls who have sex or become pregnant are not "bad"
*That rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment are crimes and the victim is never to blame
*That women and not men are the "authorities" on female sexuality
*That menstruation can be a special time in a girl's life, and that I think it's the single greatest thing about being a woman
*That she can ask me any type of sex question there is and she will not be "in trouble"
*Nudity in the home is OK but not required
*That she can have as much bodily privacy and personal space she needs
*That birth control sometimes fails and has risks, even young teen boys can be carrying STDs, and that oral sex can be risky too
*That there is nothing wrong with homosexuality
*That pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding are beautiful
*If she is being harassed at school, I will do everything I can to make it stop or she doesn't have to go to school
*Book recommendations such as Our Bodies Our Selves and Spiritual Midwifery (read that the first time when I was 11!)
*Numbers for Planned Parenthood and other woman-friendly clinics


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Greaseball, Will you be my mom?????









Regarding the kids exploring. It is so hard to go by the limited description. I'm assuming that while showing "it" they weren't actually having sex and that neither party was forcing the other? Regardless I wouldn't beat them. If any abuse was occuring I would take the whole family to therapy. If the kids were just playing ( all kids are natually curious about how it happens)I wouldn't make them feel bad about it and probably ask if they had any questions about how sex works. I don't know, I've never been in the situation.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Great list, Greaseball!

Those are the things I want to teach my ds, too. Including the strictly girl things. I want him to understand that girls/women are people worthy of respect and not just a hole for him to use. I want him to understand menstruation and fertility signs. Most of all I want to foster an open atmosphere that he feels safe to ask anything.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Oh yeah, I would tell a ds all that stuff too. I don't agree with the whole "Boys go outside, while all the girls come to the cafeteria to watch the Period Movie" approach.

As far as genital exploration, I really think all kids do it and it's usually harmless as long as the kids are around the same age and there is no force or guilt involved.

Of course, it's usually really young kids. If, say, 8-year-olds were doing it I might be worried. Worried that either they were being abused, or that their background was overly oppressive.

When I was five I took a bath with my dad and 3-year-old brother. When I was seven, I was still taking baths with my brother and when we were ten and eight, we shared a room. No traumatic memories there! It was all happy stuff.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*you guys are saying that it is ok if children masturbate*
I really didn't take it this way. Children do not "masturbate" in the way that you are describing, for pleasure. Children "explore". I think it's very natural part of the growing process. "Mommy, what is this?" I have never told my dd (who is 8) that she couldn't watch me change her brother (who is 4 months). I want her to understand the differences. I have never not let my daughter watch me breast feed. We relactated starting at 9 weeks. She will actually tell COMPLETE STRANGERS "My mommy started breastfeeding my brother late. I am going to breastfeed my child too, only earlier than she did" (Oh, the things that children say!) I think that it's pretty sad that someone could confuse "masterbation" (as in for pleasure) with "exploration". It's also a very strong indication of how our society works.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

But I do think children get pleasure out of touching thier genitals. It is probably NOT AT ALL the same kind of pleasure we get from our genitals. A very different kind of sexuality, I imagine. Maybe sensual is a better term than sexual when it coems to children's sexuality (or sensuality).


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I would be very, very concerned about a child who never explored her genitals.

I just don't think it's normal behavior not to be curious.

I would also be concerned about a child who was never curious about opposite-sex genitals. If dd never asks me by the time she is 5, I will get her one of those books like "Where Did I Come From."


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I would be very, very concerned about a child who never explored her genitals.

I just don't think it's normal behavior not to be curious.*
Within my memory I can honestly say that I was never curious about my genitals. Not until I married my SECOND husband and became a bit freaky









I was told by both my mother and my first husband that it just wasn't the thing...he did though







: I never really understood that.







:


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Children do not "masturbate" in the way that you are describing, for pleasure.

What are you basing that statement on??


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Ok, after doing some research here is what I found....

I masturbate to achieve an orgasam..

child orgasams

I do believe that a teen, and preteen can achieve an orgasam..i,e wet dream and through masturbation. But I do have to agree with the above link that toddlers, ever older CHILDREN cannot achieve an orgasam, therefore not masturbating for "pleasure" in that sense. Now, you can construe this and say that children masturbate because it feels good, but there again, it's a different KIND of pleasure and not at all orgasmic

also

child masturbation

I am not saying that masturbation is bad for a child, I am saying that IMHO (and I will do further research on this subject) I do not think that small children masturbate for 'SEXUAL' pleasure.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I didn't read the links, as I have personal memories from my own childhood regarding it.

And I'm certainly not trying to get into a debate as to when orgasm starts. I don't think that really matters one way or the other in the discussion. I was just wondering what you were basing your statement on.

I'm sure that we can agree that orgasm is not the sole definition of pleasure or sexuality (sexuality covers many things including sexual orientation)

I think the fact that society in general is afraid that kids touch themselves for sexual pleasure is the sole reason kids are told not to do it or that it's bad. Kids certainly aren't told to not touch their noses or their feet. No, just don't touch genitals. Why, because they are associated with sex (obviously they have other purposes) by people. Same issue about breasts, are they for sexual pleasure or for breastfeeding?? Obviously both, but part of the hangups some have with breastfeeding is because they are equated with sex.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think if a child has an orgasm it's by accident.

And even if they did find out how to do it, would that really be so bad? I would much rather a 6-year-old girl have an orgasm on her own than have a boy do it for her.

And no, not everyone is curious about genitals. I'm pretty much bored with mine!


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## TEAK's Mom (Apr 25, 2003)

This is an outstanding thread!

It frightens me so much that American culture bombards children with sex, even in the clothes sold for little girls, then robs them of a sense of their own bodies and beautiful, sacred, and their own.

Maybe if we informed our children, there would be less abuse. I know that information might not have saved me from sexual assault as a teen. But, it might have given me somewhere to go for help and support. Boys will be boys is never a good answer.

In addition to Greaseball's awesome list, I plan to make sure that my daughter knows how to defend her body and herself.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

In the new Ina May book about childbirth, there is a story about an adult woman in labor for the first time and she did not know where the baby was going to come out. Finally she decided it was probably going to come out her throat. Then the midwife started washing the genital area and she figured out where the baby would be.

What do you bet that this woman was told as a child that touching her genitals is bad? That she was not able to talk to her parents about anything related to sex at all? That she had never been to a sex education class? Maybe she had never even seen her own vagina; many women have not!!


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Maybe she had never even seen her own vagina; many women have not!!*
I have a special mirror simply for this and when my daughter finds it or begins to ask questions about it or shows curiosity about it, I will show her what it's for. I think it's incredibly important for a woman to be very familiar with her body.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Justice2_
*Ok, after doing some research here is what I found....

I masturbate to achieve an orgasam..

child orgasams

I do believe that a teen, and preteen can achieve an orgasam..i,e wet dream and through masturbation. But I do have to agree with the above link that toddlers, ever older CHILDREN cannot achieve an orgasam, therefore not masturbating for "pleasure" in that sense. Now, you can construe this and say that children masturbate because it feels good, but there again, it's a different KIND of pleasure and not at all orgasmic

also

child masturbation

I am not saying that masturbation is bad for a child, I am saying that IMHO (and I will do further research on this subject) I do not think that small children masturbate for 'SEXUAL' pleasure.*
Have to butt in here.. By the time i was in 3rd grade I was having sexual dreams and orgasms.. Maybe i just figuired out my plumbing earlier, but i can tell you my orgasms of youth felt exactly the same as my orgasms of adulthood with regards to masterbation..

So i have to respectfully disagree that children don't do it for the sexual feeling encountered because i most surely did..

Warm Squishy Feelings...

Dyan


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Pynki. Agreed.









When I was a student, a psychiatrist friend 15 years my senior told me that she had her first O in 3rd grade. She and a bunch of other girls would use the erasers on the back of pencils in class!!! It was an all girl thing. The thrill was to do it in front of the teacher, but to appear nothig was going on.







:

She told me that she'd go for one 2 or 3 times a week before sleep. I was not surprised given the activities of my fellow 6-7y/o class mates.









While it is common for boys to get erections from an early age, orgasm (I believe) is rare before pubity. She was surprised that pre-pubesant boys could not "resolve" themselves.

I guess we never stop learning the wonders of the human condition.

a


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The purpose of the clitoris, as we all know, is female sexual pleasure. If it were bad for a child to experience bodily pleasure (that she controlled herself, not that someone else forced on her) the clitoris would lie dormant until age 18, marriage, college graduation, etc.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*The purpose of the clitoris, as we all know, is female sexual pleasure.*
No! Male pleasure too! But I digress









a

(I guess : wag would have been out of order on this reply!!!)

a


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

lol you guys are too cool.

Pynki







me too!! I can't say exactly when it started but definately by the middle elementary school years.

If it were bad for a child to experience bodily pleasure (that she controlled herself, not that someone else forced on her) the clitoris would lie dormant until age 18, marriage, college graduation, etc.








on that one too!!


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Alexander_
*While it is common for boys to get erections from an early age, orgasm (I believe) is rare before pubity. She was surprised that pre-pubesant boys could not "resolve" themselves.*
My dh tells me he was masterbating to orgasm at around 10. However, he didn't have his first ejaculation until 14. The first time it happened, it scared him to death. He didn't know why stuff was suddenly coming out of him. Then, he was just annoyed that it was now messy.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Melanie, that is too funny. ok, maybe it's not that funny. It would be so much better if boys knew it would happen at some point and that it was normal. And they could be prepared.

another example of the benefits of education.


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## Lifesabeach (Apr 8, 2003)

you're kidding right?

I mean, look around, the whole world is obsessed with sex. You have adults hopping from one partner to another like a pack of wild animals. and the same people throw their hands up in the air and say, my child is gonna do it anyway, let's teach them to be responsible. Well first off, ya can't teach kids to be responsible when they don't even have self control. And why dont' they have self control? because adults model their lack of self control all the time.

we give our kids breastmilk, we don't vax, we family bed them, we give them nutritional food. And then we teach them to act like dogs in heat and subject not only their bodies to potential harm from multiple sex partners, but we destroy their spirits. Sex isn't just a hot flash and a shudder. It's more.

I'll teach my boys to be self controlled, responsible and protective of their beautiful bodies that God gave them. They will learn they will not disrespect girls but rather cherish them. And sex will be that beautifull relationship they have with their wives in the loving safe environment of a marraige. That's not sexually repressed.

It's unfortunate there isn't more sexually repressed people out there. I've been reading message boards far to long to understand that half the problems in the world today is because we have abandoned that which I consider a healthy dose of sexual repression.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I also plan to tell my kids that I don't see the point in having sexual intercourse before age 16. I mean, I was younger than 16 but it was just so unremarkable. I only did it because I thought I was supposed to, but really no one else was doing it!

But age 16 was when I really saw the point to the whole thing. I was pretty mature at 16, had a full time job, B+ average in school. I was actually a lot more mature at 16 than I was at 18.

But still, sex at 16 was nothing like it is now. (Meaning now it is better.) I used to do the one-night-stand thing and being married is so much better. I figure all I can do is pass on my experience and hope my kids don't make some of the mistakes I did.

I think this goes for just about everything...drugs, staying in school, choice of friends, jobs, etc. All I can do is share what things were like for me and hope my children have it better.

I don't automatically think my dd will do everything I did, but if she does I think the last thing she needs is shame.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

When my paternal grandmother was having her first child, she did not know how the child would come out of her, and her first guess was that her belly button would open up and deliver the baby through there.

Lifesabeach: I think there's a big difference between a thorough sex education, including frank honest open discussion about masturbation, and teaching your children to be "like dogs" going from partner to partner. Sex requires a certain responsiblity and THAT is a very important lesson in sex education, IMO. So I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but if you are equating sex education and openness about sexuality with promiscuity then I think you are mistaken. OTOH, if you are saying that part of YOUR sex education for your kids will be emphasizing that sex is best within the context of a marriage then I see nothing wrong with that, and don't see how it differs from what anyone else here is saying (except that some of us don't see sex outside marriage as a specific problem, but to me that is more of a morals/values issue).


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Um, the mamas talking about teaching thier kids that sexual pleasure is not a dirty thing that they shouldn't do and certainly shouldn't talk about were planning doing more than teaching thier kids to be responsible.

My parents were VERY open and frank about sexuality and I was the ONLY one of my freinds (many of whom, if not all, grew up in households with a healthy dose of sexual repression) to graduate high school a virgin.

So, in my ancedotal experience, the kind of stuff people are talking about teaching thier kids does not lead to promiscuity.

I do agree that our society places too much emphasis on sex - but that is probably a result of sexual repression rather than a result of sexual openess.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

We do not make nudity a big deal. I grew up in the family where sex was openely diucssed. And I belive it is the reason why I sateyd virgin till 19, did not get pregnant at 15 like so many of my firends (and avoided abortiona t that age). At 19 I was ready to protect myself against STD and pregnancy. My mom gave me several books on my 12th b-day. Kama Sutra, tao of Love and Sex, STD textbook, and Pregnancy textbook.
Masturabtion is great for so many thing! From sleeping aid to relaxation. I have an open marriage


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

This is a great thread.

Teaching children about healthy sexuality is not the same as condoning sexual activity with a partner. Values differ from family to family, and I think it is absolutely possible to raise children who are comfortable with their bodies and sexual feelings but who also think of sexual intercourse as something that should only occur in a committed, loving relationship between two consenting people of a reasonable level of maturity.

In fact, if those are the values a parent wishes to teach, I think it is ESSENTIAL to nurture your child's sexuality through open discussions and an accepting attitude, because she (or he; I'm using she because I have a daughter) will have sexual feelings throughout childhood and adolescence, and if she does not know what to think about them, or how to enjoy them without guilt (by masturbating rather than having sex prematurely), she will not be able to live up to the values you have taught her.

I think that sexual repression, in the form of a hush-hush-we-don't-talk-about-that attitude, or just by neglecting to talk about it because you have (wrongly) assumed that if your kids don't ask, they don't want to know, creates adults who have a lot of trouble having healthy sexual relationships.


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*

If my daughter were older, in a good relationship, and seemed mature enough, I'd probably go with her to Condomania and pick out some funky prophylactics.









*
I heard of a case where a parent was convicted of contributing to the delinquency of a minor by doing that. I think that is just wrong. I think that parent did his son a great favor! My parents had condoms in the medicine cabinet and my mother implied that if I needed them I should take them. Turns out that my dad was "fixed" so why they had condoms? Oh for me!

I am still uncomfortable a lot about sex but I am getting better. I don't know why because obviously my parents were not so sexually repressed. We used to go wilderness camping so we saw each other in the nude to swim bathe etc. I mean there is not another soul around. Why hide? In our own house there was some privacy but if we saw each other nude it was no big deal. When I got to college nudity was suddenly a BIG deal in the dorms. Freaked me out because a guy walked into the hallway and I was inadequately covered and her would not stop about it. It was just a human body!







:







:
I still looked good then too.
And I was more covered than in most bikini's

And when people start talking about who DD is going to end up with (marry etc) I say Oh, I think she's a lesbian. Shuts them up everytime.

And sex is part of healthy relationships between men and women. It should be talked about openly just like menstruation and masturbation and wet dream and what testicles are (my friends son recently asked her what they were and what they were for. He is 3) Masturbation in children (them masturbating themselves) is normal, that is why they figure out how to do it on their own. It is normal for them to be interested in bodies. It is a huge part of being a human being. Of course, masturbation is generally done in private.

Sexual abuse is wrong no matter what age the parties involved are and I hope that DD will be secure enough in her own body and sexualtiy to realize when another touching her is not healthy or "clean" or OK. I hope she feels, if it does happen, that we are open enough about sexuality that she can tell me and I won't find her dirty.

Of course levels of openess and privacy and comfort with nudity are different for all different families.

This is a great thread.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Is Condomania an adult store? I would not take an underage child there, nor would I go there myself. There are other places to get condoms.

My high school supplied them without parental knowledge. I admire them for that.


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## 3boys4us (Mar 7, 2002)

*It's unfortunate there isn't more sexually repressed people out there. I've been reading message boards far to long to understand that half the problems in the world today is because we have abandoned that which I consider a healthy dose of sexual repression.*

I think there is confusion over what is being discussed. No parent here is encouraging their child to go out and act in a sexual manner. What I read are parents who are trying to teach their children about their sexuality and value it to OVERCOME the sexual nature of the media around us.

OTH if you really beleive sexual repression is the way to go..... I guess to each his own. Nothing like a little repression to make everything go away.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

healthy = sexual repression, that's an oxymoron if ever I heard one!

AFAIK (not the expert) Condomania isn't an adult store.
I think it is completely wrong for a parent to be charged with anything for giving their kid a condom. I mean really, it's better if they don't use protection?? This is another prime example of the huge problems our society has with sex.

This type of thing comes from the idea that sex is bad so if your having it, you shouldn't get protection so that way you will get pregnant or a disease and then you won't get away with it, because everyone will know and we can all ridicule you for being bad. Whatever.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think so few people - adults and teens - actually use condoms that when they do so, they should be met with approval.


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

Just want to add my .02. I am the eldest of my parents' kids and even though my parents were nonchalant about nudity and teaching us about the basics of sex, they didn't really set up an environment where I could talk to them about my questions about sex. All my mom ever said was don't do it! Well, I had a lot of curiosity and decided to find out on my own. I set myself a deadline to have sex by the time I was 16, and I did. I didn't have anyone to talk to about the emotional ramifications, about not needing a boy's approval to feel good about myself, etc. Luckily, I didn't get pregnant or infected with anything, but I could have.

My sister is 3 years younger and I told her EVERYTHING! I talked about my mistakes, the good things I learned, etc. Well, my sister decided to wait until she was 22 and then had sex with the man who is now her husband. I think that says a lot.

Ignorance does not keep kids from having sex before they are ready. Knowledge helps them make responsible decisions.

I LOVE Greaseball's list and I'm copying it to remember as my girls get older!


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## mamabain (Sep 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Justice2_
*I really didn't take it this way. Children do not "masturbate" in the way that you are describing, for pleasure. Children "explore". ...
I think that it's pretty sad that someone could confuse "masterbation" (as in for pleasure) with "exploration". It's also a very strong indication of how our society works.*
i usually lurk here and have really enjoyed this thread. i had to jump in when justice2 posted that children do not masturbate they just explore.

i vividly remember exploring when i was approximately 2 or 3. i definitely remember masturbating, (ie to an orgasm) when i was 4 or 5. the reason i know approximate ages is because we moved when i was 4 and i have memories in both houses. i actually don't have any memories before discovering my genitalia.

that being said, i somehow got the impression that masturbation was a sin (don't think my parents ever said that, but i am a minister's daughter). i remember vividly promising/vowing to never do it again because it was so evil. then, of course, a day or few days later, there i was doing it again. i felt horrible about myself because of that. and i had severe hangups until i got married about sexuality based in part on my feelings about masturbation.

i will NOT do that to my daughter. she is only 20 months and has been fondling herself for about 2 months now. i think it just feels good to her. it is inconvenient cuz i would like to just put her diaper on and get on with life but i feel i have to let her explore a little and not deny her that. i am unsure how to go about making her feel comfortable with herself because i certainly wasn't.

i hope to hear more suggestions about how to, from a very early age, let kids know that sexuality is beautiful and healthy while protecting them from sexual abuse and hangups!

rachael


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamabain_
*i hope to hear more suggestions about how to, from a very early age, let kids know that sexuality is beautiful and healthy while protecting them from sexual abuse and hangups!

rachael*
A great book that does exactly that is called "From Diapers To Dating," by Debra Haffner. She leaves plenty of room for families individual values regarding things such as nudity, premarital sex, etc., as well, so it's not one of those one-size-fits-all books. I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone who feels they need a little guidance, or just some affirmation that they are doing a good job in this area!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"i hope to hear more suggestions about how to, from a very early age, let kids know that sexuality is beautiful and healthy while protecting them from sexual abuse and hangups!"

One of the things that I think is very important in helping protect kids from sexual abuse is to raise a child that knows who he/she is and what they want and give them the ability to voice it. I've worked at that by making sure that I ask her opinion of things, what does she want, starting with the little stuff. No we don't always do what she wants. But, I am able to explain why. Kids raised to blindly do as they are told no questions asked are not able to tell someone NO when they are being told do something wrong. This effects not just sexual preditors but also peer pressure (and I don't mean just peer pressure regarding sex or drugs). Also be a parent that is easy to talk to, so your child can come to you without fear. Often parents are automatically angry that the child was in a position to be exposed to something negative. Yes we don't like that, but they need to understand you aren't angry with them. You can be a sound person to come to for advice without fear.

Regarding sex hangups. I think it's really important to teach kids your personal values, but it sets them up for hangups if you attach shame to not doing things your way. Our kids will one day grow up and be adults in relationships. Shame is never a good thing, so attempting to shame a child into doing what you want is setting them up for problems. I think what your doing so far is awesome. It;s fine when she is old enough to let her know that touching yourself feels good but it's something that people do in private. And make sure she knows that no one should be touching her unless she wants them to.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Lifesabeach, ITA

I think there is a misconception that if you teach your child to not have sex until marriage and not to masturbate that you are 'stufling their sexuality' and not teaching them to respect their bodies. On the contrary! I do not think any part of our bodies are dirty. I happen to have a deep religious and personal belief that our sexuality is for marriage, to be shared with one other person. That is a perfectly respectable idea that has alot of merit, even if you don't agree. This does not mean that my dds won't know where their vagina is. OR that I will beat them with a hanger if I catch them masturbating. People connect the conservative view of sex with a conservative view of raising children and they don't always go together. We are a happily nude family that bathes together.







lol I tell my dds the proper names for all of their parts, from feet to vaginas. I will always be honest with them about that their body parts are for and what they can do with them (anything they wish) I will teach them to respect themselves and protect themselves and their bodies from those that might hurt them. I will also teach them that, IMO the deepest joy and happiness comes in life if you control your urges and save yourself for the one you will choose to marry. I hope and pray they will see my point and choose this path, but if they don't I won't beat them or berate them or humiliate them. I will still be their loving mama, no matter what they do in their life.

I also wanted to say that there is a difference in a masturbating child of 4 or 7 and a teenager who masturbates. One is exploration the other is pleasure. IMO that pleasure should be saved to share with the one you marry and not indulged in alone. Just my belief. I will share it with my children and hope they understand and agree, but, like I said, it is ultimately their choice and I won't hassle them for their choice.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

about beating your kids with a hanger. It is child abuse. Whatever you like it or not, your kids will masturbate at some poin, and when they find out that you do not approve of it and beat them with a hanger, they will learn how to hide it well. My grnadmother was very much against masturbation for utterely ridiculous reasons (at leat the religiou prohibition I can understand). She slapped my hand and put me in the corner when she was taking care of us. Well, i learned ho to do it in the shower. No one ever had to know.
I alway felt that the Onan episode in the Bible was misinterpreted.
Frankly, whaht is a better outlet for urger and a preventeion of extramarital sex, pregnancy and STD than self love. 100% safe


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Did I miss something? Who said anything about beating with a hanger?

As for my Condomania comment, I picked that name out of my head. There was a store on Melrose Ave in CA in the eighties called Condomania, don't know if it's still there, and at that time they just sold condoms - in a rainbow of colours and flavours. It was not an "adult oriented" store at that time, IIRC. It didn't have sex toys and such.

Not that there's anything wrong with an upscale (read: not sleazy) adult "toy store", lol.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Not that there's anything wrong with an upscale (read: not sleazy) adult "toy store", lol.







*
Nope, I truely love my happy store (as I have begun to cal it)


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Alenushka, did you think I said I would beat my children with a hangar. lol re-read my post.


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## jen and her girls (May 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lifesabeach_
*you're kidding right?

And sex will be that beautifull relationship they have with their wives in the loving safe environment of a marraige. That's not sexually repressed.

It's unfortunate there isn't more sexually repressed people out there. I've been reading message boards far to long to understand that half the problems in the world today is because we have abandoned that which I consider a healthy dose of sexual repression.*
My born-again Christian parents tried this too. They told me sex was only for marriage. They said I was not allowed to have sex until I was married. They never talked to me about masturbation. They basically repressed me in the name of Jesus. In return I lost my virginity when I was 13, and then proceeded to screw anyone I could for the remainder of my high school and college life. I thought it stunk that they were quite obviously having sex in the next room, but never bothered to tell me anything about it other than "don't do it". However, it's not like I was enjoying myself - I was hellbent on not letting my parents make my decisions for me.

The sexual repression that I experienced still has complications to this day, and I have been happily married for 6 years. I cannot think of sex without thinking of my parents, and how wrong they said it was, and how I was such a slut. Try that on for size as you're trying to get intimate with your husband.

I would strongly encourage you to tell your children that you would like them to wait until they are mature enough to make a good decision, but if you tell them not to, and that it's a sin, it will probably blow up in your face.

Kids typically want to do what you tell them that they can't do. I think you'll have to be a little bit open minded if you want to avoid giving them a complex.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Jen, how sad. That is almost exactly like what I posted in the old abstinence thread, except my parents were not religious, and my mom said even sex in marriage was bad and wrong!


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## jen and her girls (May 22, 2003)

Thankfully my DH totally understands, he knows exactly what my parents did to me. He is very patient and kind. I still find if we are with my parents and my dad says anything about sex I can't even think of intercourse with my husband for weeks.

I really resent my parents for giving me such a horrible feeling about sex, sexuality, and myself. If they had once told me that the feelings I had were normal and not evil, then maybe I wouldn't have had sex for the first time at 13 - with a Ziploc bag as a condom at that.

I plan to teach my daughters to love and respect themselves, to know that sexual feelings and curiosity is totally normal, and that I will not judge them for their decisions. I am hoping that by giving them the self respect and information that they need they will wait, not until marriage, but until having a sexual relationship will be beneficial to them.

And by the way "raise our children up in the way that they should go" has been interpreted by many Christian scholars to mean that we should respect each childs individual personality and needs, and raise them accordingly, not necessarily in the mold that we as parents have determined will produce spiritually perfect children.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

My dh and I were talking about this last night. I can't believe that we are still having to deal with the hangups regarding sex that his parents put on him. He finally (after ooo 40 some years) remembers the "not spilling seed" talk he got from his dad. And it really angers me and him that he has had to deal with guilt and shame about this.

I wish I could talk openly, but I have to stay within the "family firendly" guidelines. In this case I think being open could really save someone else from the hurt he has experienced and that would definately qualify as family friendly.

I really resent my parents for giving me such a horrible feeling about sex, sexuality, and myself.

Jen, I can so relate to this. The sad part is that it takes so much work to overcome this kind of ABUSE! which is what I think it is.


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