# She will NOT get up for school!!!



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

The school bus left 10 minutes ago with 2 of my 3 children on it. My middle child is still in bed and is refusing to get up!

I'll admit my gut reaction is to be the opposite of GD with her right now- I want to scream at her, pull the blankets off of her, and turn on all the lights in her room. Now, before you start flaming me, I'm not about to do any of those things! I've given her a few gentle reminders to get up and now I'm posting here to let off some steam.

I mean, WTF am I supposed to do? I can't exactly pick her up and carry her to the bus in her pajamas- she's too heavy and I'm not strong enough. If I ignore her, she'll go back to sleep. If I overwhelm her (with lights or sound) she'll shut down and be even less responsive. I know what that's like because I was the same way as a child (and my mother didn't understand *me* and often came in loudly as I was almost ready to get up and caused me to shut down again.)

The alarm in the girls' room was set for 6:00. She obviously ignored it. The alarm in my room was set for 6:30- I hit the snooze a few times, then snuggled with DS for 2 snooze sessions, then ended up raising my voice when I had to go to the bathroom and he wanted to stay in bed (he didn't want me to go to the bathroom without him but I had to go and, from the bathroom, I gave him the choice to come in now or let me go first.) Anyway, except for that one moment of raising my voice I managed to get him up and ready on time this morning without yelling, and my oldest got herself ready, but my middle child is STILL in bed and it's now 20 minutes after the bus came.

What am I supposed to do with her? She's 10.5 and I have a real 5yo who needs my attention in the mornings. I can't "force" her to go to bed at night because I generally fall asleep before she does. I went to bed with DS around 8:45 last night, she was supposed to be in bed by around 9 but she woke me up at 9:30 to complain that she wanted a snack and didn't like what we had in the house.

If she sleeps in my room she has an even harder time waking up in the mornings- and it makes bedtime harder for DS (either she sleeps in his bed which he doesnt like or she sets up a sleeping bag between his bed and the closet and I can't get to any of our clothing.)


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## anjelika (May 16, 2004)

Does she enjoy school and/or the social interaction she is receiving there? I know school (esp. at that age) was a fairly toxic environment for me, and it definitely affected my ability to wake up for it in the mornings.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't think that's the problem here. She was having trouble with one specific teacher (for Hebrew language) and I just pulled her out of that class. She seems to be doing fine in all her other classes. Social interaction at HOME(with her sister) is a problem, but I don't think that's the case at school.

I think she just doesn't want to get up early.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't even get up that early. ugh.

Can you wake her up with a foot rub? I had a boyfriend who did construction and would get up at 5. He'd wake me up with a foot rub, it wasn't a long one, a few minutes per foot, and I'd get up and make him coffee and breakfast.

You could turn the lights on and open the curtains, the windows if it's not too cold, gently not madly, give her a little foot rub and a kiss and maybe bring her a glass of juice or something so she can have something to get up for. Maybe just devote 5-10 gentle minutes to her in the morning.

What are the school consequences if she is late? Do you have to drive her? Is school close enough that she could walk?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

The school consequence is that I'm stuck driving her and she gets to miss however much school she misses.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
The school consequence is that I'm stuck driving her and she gets to miss however much school she misses.

Will the school not back you up on providing a different consequence?

Would it be a natural consequence for her to have to give up leisure time to work with you on tasks you normally do by yourself, for the same amount of time as it takes you to drive her to school and back? And perhaps have to figure out how much gas costs and be responsible for that cost?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Ds is 10.5 and he would still need a good amount of supervision at night and in the mornings in order to get himself to bed and then up on time. I know you have a littler one too, but ds at 10.5 would still need supervision.

I would be inclined to make it happier and positive in response to her problem, rather than more punitive and detached. Something about using punitive coercion to force a child to leave the house seems counter-intuitive to me. It also feels like the kind of thing I'd regret one day when she left-for good. Anytime I acted like this as a kid, it was because I wanted on some level to just be the baby again, to stay home with my mom, not to have any worries. This does get your dd some extra time alone with you. I would not want to punish her for craving that, even if school is non negotiable. It's a compliment to you that she wants to stay home









My mother often woke up her kids by snuggling next to each of us for a few minutes. So, I second the foot rub-type of wake up. Soft music might also be good. Also, just a tiny bit of light at first is better than the overhead lamp.

I think waking up before your dd is going to be key. I know you don't want to hear that. I don't see a way around it. Not saying she will magically love it, but being the first one up is always very tough. She doesn't sound ready for that kind of responsibility.

I would try these things too:

Have a hot drink ready for her to sip. Warm cider (easy, just buy a jug of it and heat a cupful), tea, even natural decaf. Anything she likes. Sipping something can wake up the digestion which in turn wakes up the body.

I'd stock up something cheap and good smelling I could pop in the oven when I rolled out of bed. Ready made cinnamon rolls, instant oatmeal with maple syrup, anything that needs to be warmed and will give off a nice smell.

Ds is a a VERY VERY deep sleeper and absolutely has never ever awakened early on his own, even as a baby.

When ds was in science school our routine was:

I woke up first.
I turned the white noisemaker in his room down to low.
5 minutes later I turned it off.
5 minutes after that I lightened the room a little.
5 minutes later a little more light.
5 minutes after that I would give him a little kiss and whisper "Time to wake up"
Usually in another 5 minutes with a second normal voiced-Time to get up sweetie!-he showed some sign of life.

He always put out clothes the night before, on the end of his bed. At that point I'd remind him to get changed and come out for a treat in the kitchen. I'd have something he liked waiting, and a hot drink. He loved the hot drink and went straight for that first.

He was STILL half asleep in the car. But we were both happy. It was a lot of extra work, but it was really easier than rushing or feeling tense.

I hope you find a routine that works for both of you!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Maybe she needs to be in bed even before 9.

Are you sure she doesn't have more school consequences than that? At my middle school we failed all our classes for the quarter if we had more than three unexcused absences, and 3 unexcused tardies counted as one unexcused absence.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Kailey will be 6 in February and for her it was all about routine.

She goes to bed no later than 9:30 and gets up about 5:45

Every night we bath, brush hair (chat about the next day)

Get school clothes out for the next day (this eliminates clothing related frustrations)

and then read in bed for 15-20 minutes

Since we started the routine (a week before school started) she has not had troubles with getting up. her BIGGEST motivator is riding the bus. She LOVES to ride the bus and there have been a couple of times we were running late (my fault) and I have had to take her to school. She loathes me taking her to school, oh it drives her mad!

So in the morning she hears me go potty and gets up on her own. After she goes potty she likes to lay on the couch for a bit. Sometimes she forgets about getting dressed, so I say, öh let's get dressed so we don't miss the bus!" And off she goes!

Is there something that your dd loves about school or getting up in the morning? Is there a breakfast food she adores and would hate missing if she slept in late?

Kailey loves french toast. If she wants french toast in the morning she needs to get up by X a.m. If she sleeps in, no french toast (this is all hypothetical of course). Is there something like that?

Maybe a morning story time?
Special TV privileges (if you aren't TV free)
an arts or crafts project with just mom?

As for consequences, I agree that they need to come naturally and not be punitive, it may only shut her down and cause her to be resentful of her "punisher".

I know I harden like steel if I feel i am being put between a rock and a hard place.

Hugs to you mama


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Maybe she needs to be in bed even before 9.

Are you sure she doesn't have more school consequences than that? At my middle school we failed all our classes for the quarter if we had more than three unexcused absences, and 3 unexcused tardies counted as one unexcused absence.

This is an alternative school, and it's quite a bit less structured than a standard middle school would be. There are no tests (except for once a year standardized tests), no traditional "grades" and really no way to "fail." It's all about project-based learning (no busywork!) and no punishments. If a child acts up they want to know why- is the child bored? Needs to let off some steam? Etc. They're not going to do any kind of artificial "consequence" and I wouldn't want them to anyway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I would be inclined to make it happier and positive in response to her problem, rather than more punitive and detached. Something about using punitive coercion to force a child to leave the house seems counter-intuitive to me.










Quote:

My mother often woke up her kids by snuggling next to each of us for a few minutes. So, I second the foot rub-type of wake up. Soft music might also be good. Also, just a tiny bit of light at first is better than the overhead lamp.

I think waking up before your dd is going to be key. I know you don't want to hear that. I don't see a way around it. Not saying she will magically love it, but being the first one up is always very tough. She doesn't sound ready for that kind of responsibility.
She's NOT the first one up. The 12yo gets herself up even before I do. While she's getting ready, I'm getting DS up- snuggling, then he likes company in the bathroom (somebody tell me he's going to outgrow this soon!!) etc. Once I'm out of the bathroom, I go and check on the 10yo- she's usually still in bed and it's often past 7:00 at this point. The bus comes at 7:40 so this IS enough time if she actually gets out of bed at this point- the problem is she often doesn't. Most nights she sleeps in what she plans to wear to school the next day so that simplifies the mornings a little.

All of the suggestions you made seems to be on the same theme- baby her some more. I agree with the concept, but the reality is that if I baby the 10yo more, I'll have to baby the 5yo less- there's only one of me, there's 2 of them, and my bed isn't big enough for three! If I run back and forth between the two bedrooms all morning, the result is usually that DD10 isn't ready in time(or just barely makes the bus) PLUS the 5yo is angry at me for not staying with him and he nearly misses the bus as well!

Did I mention that the girls share a room, and the older one is up and puttering around for at least half an hour before the younger one bothers to get up?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I really can't base this on anything but what I've seen others say, since I only have one child, so do with this what you will:

My understanding is that, to some degree, a parent of several children sometimes has to give their attention to the one who needs "babying" the most *right then*~not necessarily by birth order. If your youngest is otherwise happy to get up for school and go about his routine, it would seem he is handling that particular time of day better than his 10 year old sister. So, based only on what I've seen other parents say, I'd be inclined to give his sister extra attention at that time of day, and give him more at the time of day he especially needs it. Perhaps you could enlist your 5 year old as your "morning helper", even let *him* help in getting up his sister, making him feel very special and important for getting up with you and helping with the others.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

OK, but what do you do when two of them need babying at the same time?

DS will throw a tantrum and NOT get out of bed or get dressed if I don't stay with him. DD is pretty independent about getting dressed and going to the bathroom- once I can get her out of bed! Both need help packing snacks/lunch for school and both are capable of getting their own breakfasts. Packing 3 lunches is no harder than packing 1, so I usually do that myself.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

No advice here, just some sympathy. My ds had this same problem. When she was a baby I would just dress her and put her in her car seat and we would leave. Nothing I tried ever worked. I think she mostly did not want to go to school in the later years. It is very very hard for her to wake up. She co-sleeps now with her 1 yo ds and he is the only thing I have ever seen wake her up!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I was a top student, absolutely loved school and never wanted to miss a minute of it, and yet I was constantly late and unable to get up early from the age of 5 on and always, always had trouble getting up early. I have just always needed a bit more sleep than everyone else and it has never been a lack of health. I wonder if your 10 year old is not able to get to bed early enough because the 12 year old stays up later? I still hate it when my DH tries to wake me up earlier than my body says I am able to handle and if he does wake me up, I am incredibly cranky for quite a while and it throws off the rhythm of my entire day. I have no idea if your DD is like this, but I thought I'd just throw out my 2 cents.









The fact that she missed her bus though and is still in bed...that seems to signal that she's either feeling sick or that there is something else bothering her and she doesn't want to go to school to face it.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
No advice here, just some sympathy. My ds had this same problem. When she was a baby I would just dress her and put her in her car seat and we would leave. Nothing I tried ever worked. I think she mostly did not want to go to school in the later years. It is very very hard for her to wake up. She co-sleeps now with her 1 yo ds and he is the only thing I have ever seen wake her up!

I hope you're not suggesting my 10yo have a baby for the purpose of waking her up!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I was a top student, absolutely loved school and never wanted to miss a minute of it, and yet I was constantly late and unable to get up early from the age of 5 on and always, always had trouble getting up early. I have just always needed a bit more sleep than everyone else and it has never been a lack of health. I wonder if your 10 year old is not able to get to bed early enough because the 12 year old stays up later? I still hate it when my DH tries to wake me up earlier than my body says I am able to handle and if he does wake me up, I am incredibly cranky for quite a while and it throws off the rhythm of my entire day. I have no idea if your DD is like this, but I thought I'd just throw out my 2 cents.









The fact that she missed her bus though and is still in bed...that seems to signal that she's either feeling sick or that there is something else bothering her and she doesn't want to go to school to face it.

Nope, nothing else bothering her about school- we talked about that on the way to school today. She likes school, and wants to go- it's a physical problem waking up in the mornings. She's showing no other signs of illness and this isn't something "new" for her.

Ugh, I wish I could just give them separate bedrooms. You're absolutely right about the 12yo wanting to stay up later and that keeps the 10yo up. I'm almost tempted to make them all go to bed at 9:00 and let the 12yo wake up at 5:00 AM to hang out if she wants to, but I know that wouldn't go over well.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Can you try approaching it as a non-judgemental, unemotional problem to be solved _with_ her? At some point, when everything is okay in the day, can you take some time and sit down with her and talk about the problem of being on time to catch the bus? "I realize that it's hard for you to get up. And I understand what that's like. It's hard for me too, sometimes. I really can't flex on you being ready to catch the bus. But there may be something else we can do to make it easier on you. So, what can we do to help that happen? Let's think of something that would be helpful." Then, maybe throw out a suggestion or two that you really can get behind. Like agreeing to have hot chocolate in a thermos ready for her to take on the bus. Or making sure that on the days she doesn't have to catch the bus, she can wake up entirely on her own, and won't be bothered at all on those days. Or whatever. Let her know that you really are ready and willing to find a way to make getting up easier and more appealing to her.

I also think that trying to figure out if there's anything else going on that makes sleeping in the most appealling of all choices is the best place to start. Does she hate the bus ride? Is she teased? Is there something about the start of that day at school that she dreads?

HTH.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Is this an ongoing problem? Has she missed the bus before, because she will not get up when she needs to?

I like the idea of bringing her juice in the morning. Beyond that, I would not baby her. I would probably ask her first though, "_Would it help you to wake up if I started bringing you juice in bed each morning?"_ Or else I would approach it as a "how can I help?" issue. _"How can I help you get up in the morning?"_ Sometimes if they come up with the solutions, they are more comitted to making them work.

As far as bedtime -- I would try to exert some control there. Probably some rules/new structure about what time lights need to be out, etc. Does your 12 yo. have a reading light on her bed? Perhaps you could put a low watt bulb in it, and have her read silently if she is not ready to sleep. Maybe reposition their beds so that the reading lamp doesn't bother the 10 year old?

Finally, I probably would not have driven her to school late. I probably would have had her miss school for a day (assuming I could stay home with her.) I know it would make my 10 yo. crazy to miss a whole day of school, but then he would feel motivated to get up in time thereafter. If he continued to miss school -- well then, I guess we would become homeschoolers!


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

Since your oldest one gets up on time, would she be willing to help her sister get up? Perhaps you and all the kids could come up with a morning plan.
Something I had do with my first grader was to tell her that if she gets up on time, we could have time for a good breakfast, instead of eating something quickly and running out the door. Now she gets up because she wants eggs!!


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Is it that she just needs more sleep than most, or is her whole body clock "off"?

For me, personally, I've struggled with waking up on time my entire life. It's not that I need more sleep than most adults, I truly don't. . it's just that I'm simply not tired until late into the night. This has always posed a problem for me because school and work don't often accomdate night-owls. If left to my own devices, I typically don't get tired until 2am, at which point I sleep until 9am, or so. Thankfully I have a job that doesn't mind that I don't come in until after 10 or I'd have been fired by now! And on the weekends, I'm lucky if I'm up before noon! I'm not a slacker, I promise, I just feel that this is how I'm wired to be.

It's not a matter _not wanting_ to wake up early (in fact, I very much would prefer to wake up at the crack of dawn). I honestly think that my body clock is just off and as much as I try to change it, it never lasts more than a week or two.

If you think this is the case with your daughter, there are something that might help. For instance, after 7pm, or so, keep all the lights off in the room she's in. This will help signal to her body that it's getting time for bed. She probably won't be tired for a good while, but maybe by 9 (or even earlier) she'll be sleepy. Then in the morning, a natural-light lamp that gradually brightens over the course of 30 min or so might help her get up.

If she's not getting enough sleep, then that definitely needs to be addressed to. But I did want to throw out the possibility that it may not be avoidance of school, or anything like that, that's the problem. It may honestly be something she doesn't have a lot of control over.


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Please don't be offended by this suggestion (I know some people are adamantly opposed to giving caffeine to children), but maybe you could give her a little coffee. I was the same way when I was little, and when I was about 8 my mom had had enough. She started bringing me a small cup of coffee in bed every morning and would sit with me for awhile to help wake me up. It worked for me. If you don't want her to have caffeine, you could try decaf.


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## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't know what your particular circumstances are (and admittedly, I have not read all of the other posts), but I have thoughts of some things that might help and make the morning rise/out of the house routine go well.

Children generally need more sleep than adults. I sympathize with you in that my child is often still revving to go when I am exhausted and ready for bed at 8 p.m. So if there is a way to get her to at least be in bed earlier, that might create a situation where she goes to sleep sooner. Does she read? Maybe some books she'll like so she can unwind this way. Or maybe a backrub for a few minutes. This might also help you feel more connected to her since she's driving you crazy. How about a warm bath before bedtime? Again, I know you can't force her but since she's approaching the pre-adolescent years and womanhood, maybe she'd be willing to start the ritual if you got her some lavender oil, some nice lotions and pretty candles to light while she gets 10 minutes of time to herself in warm water every night. That would get me in the bath ; )
A light snack before bedtime helps me sleep. It sounds like she's being picky about what to eat but if there are few tried and true snacks that you know she enjoys, maybe always have those on hand.

I know these suggestions must sound like "giving in" or accomodating her....but, if you do it williing to achieve more peace in your life and household, then it is not giving in. It is a willingness to do a few small things for your own sanity (and her siblings too). Everybody can gain something this way.

P.S. Regarding the coffee to wake up suggestion...you know, one main cause of lethargy in the morning is that we are a bit dehydrated. You could also rouse her with a glass of juice...cold, sweet, refreshing and hydrating could help her rise too.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I have the same problem with my 10.5yo dd if she's in bed later than 8pm. On those mornings I try to wake her up 3 times gently. The 4th time I take the covers off of her and start dressing her while she lays in bed. When she's dressed I sit her up and hand her a cup of orange juice, then walk her to the bathroom, and brush her hair while she sits on the potty. Then it's out the door with a slice of toast and a piece of fruit. Luckily I only have to do this about once a week, the rest of the time I make sure she's in bed by 8pm.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Ruthla...Read "Sleepless in America" by Kurcinka. It's full of answers. Really. It'll help soo much...


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Is this an ongoing problem? Has she missed the bus before, because she will not get up when she needs to?

Yup, this is a constant, ongoing problem, that we've been dealing with for *years.*

Quote:

Finally, I probably would not have driven her to school late. I probably would have had her miss school for a day (assuming I could stay home with her.) I know it would make my 10 yo. crazy to miss a whole day of school, but then he would feel motivated to get up in time thereafter. If he continued to miss school -- well then, I guess we would become homeschoolers!
This is not the first time she's missed the bus- I think I've let her stay home all day about 4-5 times and driven her twice. Letting her stay home all day usually results in me being angry at her for messing up my routine, and with her angry and withdrawn because I'm ignoring her all day and snapping at her when she does ask for something. Or I plan to make her do chores all day and then I get angry at her for not doing them. I don't have it in me to homeschool. I've thought about it a lot but I need to respect my limits and I NEED that break every day. She needs to go to school, and driving her late is less of a hardship on me than dealing with her all day or running errands with her home alone and me worrying about her safety. Then she gets out of the school routine and it takes her a few days to get back on track- if I drive her late she's usually back on track by the next day.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
Is it that she just needs more sleep than most, or is her whole body clock "off"?

I'm honestly not sure, but I do know that she has an easier time getting up in the mornings when she's gotten to bed earlier the night before.

Quote:

Then in the morning, a natural-light lamp that gradually brightens over the course of 30 min or so might help her get up.
No need for that- we have these low-tech things called windows,







and coincidentally it gets light around 6:30 AM, around when my alarm clock goes off.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

No time to read all the replies. Sometimes when dc do not want to get up I put a story on tape on, and then they let me dress them up while they listen to it. It is not every morning. Usually they get up earlier than they need to, while I am getting myself ready. But if they are still not awake after their alarm goes off, then I put the stories on tape.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

This morning, every time my alarm went off I got up, and instead of going right back to bed I gave DD a kiss and then went back to bed.

She got up on time this morning with no fuss! Instead it was DS who stayed in bed and refused to budge.







: In fact, she helped me get DS ready this morning. Unfortunately, she forgot to take him to the bathroom before dressing him (I was packing lunches) and he had an accident and I barely had time to change him before the bus came.







:

Maybe today I'll just put them to bed the minute they get off the school bus.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

The Sleepless in America book addresses how to gently nudge your kids to a healthy sleeping pattern. It's practical and addresses temperment....I'm a UP, blah blah blah. I've made a few minor changes in *my* behavior and it's already getting better in less than a week.....

And my kid is liking me better....


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
The school consequence is that I'm stuck driving her and she gets to miss however much school she misses.

Can you ask the school to give her a detention after school (my school also does "lunch detentions" where the child has to eat in a different place with restrictions...no talking, etc) or take away some other privelege? My second child was often missing the bus and I would drive him...but we have to leave pretty soon after the bus or we'll be late anyways, so it wasn't even gaining him much time and it's a huge inconvenience for me and my toddler daughter. By the time I get myself and her ready to go, find my keys/ glasses etc there's a good chance he'll be late. He had three tardies and lo and behold got assigned detention. He has only missed the bus once or twice since then. He really hated that detention. I like it that someone else was the bad guy, not me. Since detention is the school policy for three unexcused tardies, it falls into the "natural consequence of this behavior" catagory, and isn't just mom squawking at him about being irresponsible.

The only other thing I would mention is that while some people are naturally night owls and cannot be perky in the morning no matter what, if she seems unnaturally tired and unable to get out of bed, there could be a physical reason, or even some depression.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Ruthla -- I'm so glad you had a better morning with her! Sorry about your 5 yo. wet pants though. What a pain in the....... well, anyway....

I would not want my child to get a detention or consequence at school, especially if it were not a normal policy that was spelled out ahead of time and applied to all the children. However, playing further on that idea.... how about if someone in authority (director, principle, teacher???) at school had a talk with her about tardiness? Sometimes it helps when another respected adult backs us up. Sometimes it makes more of an impression. It might sort of sink in that, _"Hey, this isn't just mom being fussy. Its a real issue!"_


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthe* 
Can you ask the school to give her a detention after school (my school also does "lunch detentions" where the child has to eat in a different place with restrictions...no talking, etc) or take away some other privelege?

*Hell no!!!*

DD *NEEDS* downtime and physical activity or she can't function. Trying to ostracise her during a much-needed break from schoolwork is going to result in a very angry child who will completely shut down and learn absolutely nothing else the rest of the day. It would also make it much, much harder for her to get up for school in the future because then she'll really have a reason not to want to go.

This morning went a lot better than yesterday. What I really need to do is focus on making the bedtime routine run smoothly so she has an easier time getting up in the mornings.


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
*Hell no!!!*

DD *NEEDS* downtime and physical activity or she can't function. Trying to ostracise her during a much-needed break from schoolwork is going to result in a very angry child who will completely shut down and learn absolutely nothing else the rest of the day. It would also make it much, much harder for her to get up for school in the future because then she'll really have a reason not to want to go.

This morning went a lot better than yesterday. What I really need to do is focus on making the bedtime routine run smoothly so she has an easier time getting up in the mornings.

I don't think a one-time half-hour detention would result in a lifetime angry-shut-down child. I'm sure she would be annoyed by it both before and after, for several days, as my son was, but if that's too terrible a consequence for you to consider, even to avoid further morning drama day after day and more missed school, then forget I suggested it.
You are going to need her cooperation in order to get the nighttime routine running smoothly, so you are going to HAVE to think of SOME natural consequence for her actions that will motivate her to stick to the new routine.


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Ruthla -- I'm so glad you had a better morning with her! Sorry about your 5 yo. wet pants though. What a pain in the....... well, anyway....

I would not want my child to get a detention or consequence at school, especially if it were not a normal policy that was spelled out ahead of time and applied to all the children. However, playing further on that idea.... how about if someone in authority (director, principle, teacher???) at school had a talk with her about tardiness? Sometimes it helps when another respected adult backs us up. Sometimes it makes more of an impression. It might sort of sink in that, _"Hey, this isn't just mom being fussy. Its a real issue!"_


Frankly, I cannot imagine a school that does NOT have a policy in place for unexcused absences and tardies. If a parent is willing to write a note stating, "so-and-so is late this morning because she wasn't feeling well," that's an excused tardy in our district. But if this parent gets fed up and decides not to write any such note for so-and-so who does not want to get to bed at a decent hour and get enough sleep, then so-and-so will have to own that behavior and accept the consequences, which are spelled out in so-and-so's student handbook.
If unexcused tardies continued despite detentions etc being assigned, I am certain the school counselors would get involved to whatever degree was necessary to figure out the cause.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Ruthla...the things that have helped me so far with reading Sleepless in America are:

1) noticing and helping dd's tension level *thoughout* the day
2) the suggestion to chart a number things (wake up time, bed time, sleep time, screen time, meal times) for a week or two to determine this child's "average" need. Then, making small changes to nudge the sleep time to something easier for all of you.

It's not a "one size fits all" approach, and it accepts that your child is not doing this to drive you crazy, get attention, manipulate you, get away with something, etc.

It's the same person who wrote "Spirited Child" and "Kid, Parents and Power Struggles."


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Hooray Ruthla! I'm so glad the "Many small wakings" approach worked. Sorry about your ds though. Hopefully tomorrow will be a TOTAL success!


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

hey, ruth, wanna hear my btdt?

i had the same problem in school, in fact, i quit in 10th grade and got my diploma from the american school. my ds has sleep/wake up issues also.

after i was dx w/FM a yr or so ago, i read every book i could find on the subject. one of them (of course i cant remember which...brain fog! haha) mentioned signs of FM that exist in childhood, sort of markers to show future likelihood of having it as an adult.

since learning that, i am much more understanding of ds...and much more angry at my parents for not taking me seriously yrs ago. i keep a very strict bedtime for him, and when needed, give him 1mg of melatonin to make sure he is asleep by 9pm. if i keep his sleep time stable, he gets up much more easily, and i feel that by not allowing him to build up a huge sleep debt, i am lowering his chances of FM later.

any chance your dd has/had "growing pains"?

HTH


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthe* 
I don't think a one-time half-hour detention would result in a lifetime angry-shut-down child. I'm sure she would be annoyed by it both before and after, for several days, as my son was, but if that's too terrible a consequence for you to consider, even to avoid further morning drama day after day and more missed school, then forget I suggested it.
You are going to need her cooperation in order to get the nighttime routine running smoothly, so you are going to HAVE to think of SOME natural consequence for her actions that will motivate her to stick to the new routine.

It wouldn't result in a lifetime angry shut-down child, but it WOULD result in a day's angry-shut down child. I can't imagine how punishing her would make her co-operate at night or how it would possibly make the mornings any easier.

I *am* on the GD forum, right?







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthe* 
Frankly, I cannot imagine a school that does NOT have a policy in place for unexcused absences and tardies. If a parent is willing to write a note stating, "so-and-so is late this morning because she wasn't feeling well," that's an excused tardy in our district. But if this parent gets fed up and decides not to write any such note for so-and-so who does not want to get to bed at a decent hour and get enough sleep, then so-and-so will have to own that behavior and accept the consequences, which are spelled out in so-and-so's student handbook.
If unexcused tardies continued despite detentions etc being assigned, I am certain the school counselors would get involved to whatever degree was necessary to figure out the cause.

This is a private school, fairly small (6 students in DD's class,) with a whole-child philosophy that's very much in line with GD. There are no arbitrary consequences, no detentions, etc. There aren't any official school counselors, but the people involved in running the school act as counselors as needed. Getting involved to help the child and figure out what's wrong is the FIRST thing they do, not something they only resort to if punishments don't work.

This doesn't take rocket science. We just had a 4 day weekend and got off schedual. She got to bed earlier last night and had an easier time getting up this morning. She's not intentionally staying up late just to spite me, nor is she intentionally missing the school bus. Punishing her would be counterproductive.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I was chronically sick and fatigued until the day I graduated high school. Some children are just not cut out for such a ridiculous schedule. 6am is WAY too early for a 10 year old- sorry! Is it possible for you to find alternatives or even homeschooling? Her health WILL slide if she is repeatedly forced to start her day when she is not ready.


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

I do understand that you do not want to punish her for something she can't control. And yes, this is the GD forum but I think my mindset in all this is that, yes, home is a safe place where gd should occur, but if you are GOING to go out in society (such as school, whether it is private or a bigger public school) then you are expected to conform to a large degree with expected behaviors such as attending regularly and arriving punctually. And since it is apparently a struggle for you at some times to get her on schedule so she CAN wake up on time, and because the object of GD is to NOT have such struggles and drama coming from the home environment, wouldn't it be helpful in this case to be motivated by an expected consequence from the school since you would rather not assign a consequence yourself? And arguing and occasionally yelling when things get rushed and hectic in the morning is also a somewhat natural consequence but, IMO, a less desirable one.
It's great that the school is willing and able to be involved in finding a solution; have you spoken to anyone there about it on the 4-5 occasions she was late or absent before? If that was all this school year, it sounds like it IS time to work on this problem before it builds up any more. When she's just a bit older it will get very hard to make up missed work, although it may not seem like a big deal yet.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
I was chronically sick and fatigued until the day I graduated high school. Some children are just not cut out for such a ridiculous schedule. 6am is WAY too early for a 10 year old- sorry! Is it possible for you to find alternatives or even homeschooling? Her health WILL slide if she is repeatedly forced to start her day when she is not ready.

I wonder if that is what happened to me. I was always getting sick until I started 11th grade in a different school. The first class wasn't until 10:30 am, so, no more waking at 5:45 am to get to school. I never got sick in 11th and 12 th grade.

I will admit that I was the one who would wake up at 1 am and have to read to get back to sleep....always been like that....that's why there are sometimes posts here at MDC at 1-2am.


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

is your ds awake when your alarm clock goes off?? if not then you could maybe go cuddle with dd2 for a bit then get her up, then go and wake up ds??

DD1 goes to school this yr and i have to wake her up everyday. I usually do it softly with a cuddle or two, then with lots of kisses everywhere on her faces, then i tickle her. By the time i tickle her, she is awake and is laughing. I don't have a hard time gettiing her up after all that.

If i let her wake up by herself, she would only wake up about 7:30-8am. Her bus comes at 8am.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
She's not intentionally staying up late just to spite me, nor is she intentionally missing the school bus. Punishing her would be counterproductive.









ITA. Punishment is not going to solve this issue.

Is she getting enough physical/outdoors time after school/before bedtime? That helped tremendously with my children. They get home, eat snack and then get outside until dinner is ready. Then they eat, do homework/laundry/bathtime and get to bed.
Before we implemented the outdoor time....OMG! 4kids who were so crabby in the morning.







:


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

This thread takes me back. I couldn't tell you what was taught the first 2 hours of school. Waking early never made me a morning person. My brain seems to need several *hours* of light in order to fully awake.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Ruthla said:


> I mean, WTF am I supposed to do? I can't exactly pick her up and carry her to the bus in her pajamas- she's too heavy and I'm not strong enough. If I ignore her, she'll go back to sleep. If I overwhelm her (with lights or sound) she'll shut down and be even less responsive. I know what that's like because I was the same way as a child (and my mother didn't understand *me* and often came in loudly as I was almost ready to get up and caused me to shut down again.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 3lilmunkeys (Oct 31, 2005)

This is a great thread full of good suggestions. I have the same type of problems wtih my 6yo, and needed to hear what other mamas do in the morning to get their kiddos up.
I am definetely going to try some of these strategies!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Ruthla, we've gone through similar challenges getting everyone up, dressed, fed and out the door. Dh suggested I help my 6 yo (my challenge







) with all he needed to do--and I was like, well, how do you propose I get myself and the other two children ready? Or, I suppose I could wake up a few hours earlier...but that ain't gonna make for a happy mama. It does sound like getting off-track rhythm-wise over the holiday. I would still recommend to everyone Sleepless in America though---it is an amazing book!

Quote:

Maybe today I'll just put them to bed the minute they get off the school bus.
That sounds tempting to me









Growing up, I was such the anti-morning person, when I was in high school, I showered and actually dressed in my school clothes for the next day when I went to bed at night







: I still have a different circadian rhythm than most.

And ITA that punishment, in any form, from any person, will not help, and more than likely, hurt. Trust your instincts







BTW, the school sounds really cool---wish they could all be like this. Working with rather than against, problem solving with the child, gotta love that.


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

Regarding the sleep thing- my 12 & 13 year old boys (I have 10 of them who live with me & DH at a group home) go to be every night at 8pm. We tuck them into bed and then let them listen to a half an hour radio drama. Almost all my boys are sound asleep by 8:45! We wake them up at 6:30, some are still tired but are usually soon ready to face the day. Most kids that age would shudder in horror at going to bed that early. BUT I find that after my boys are on that schedule for about 2-3 weeks, they are often saying to me "I can't wait to go to bed!" Or "I'm so sleepy, I can't wait to climb into bed!" And they all sleep well and are much less cranky.

All that to say, I strongly encourage you to read the recommended "sleep" books and help your kids get more rest. I'm not a morning person either, but I can handle my boys much better after the right amount of sleep. I don't think we are helping our kids (we as in society) by depriving them of sleep!


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

Wow, I think you are doing an amazing job! Honestly I am not a morning person. I could not get up for school for years. If I have to get up early I find it is easier to just not go to bed at all.









I know this thought will not be helpful currently but just in case your dd has a hard time in the future. School is one of the only times in life we HAVE to get up consistently early for things. I am not a morning person. I took evening college and law school classes. I found a job that does not involve early mornings. My dd has a mother who gets out of bed after she does and so far life is going pretty ok.

I know you are aware of this but just in case someone gives you a hard time I am proof that you don't need to see a sunrise to be a happy adult!







:

ETA: I don't know how hard this would be for you but if there is a time where her schedule is thrown off again could you just plan on driving her to school the next morning? Would it be easier on everybody if you could get the other 2 kids on the bus and then have some time to focus on her getting out the door? Sometimes I find it helpful to know in advance that something is going to be a particular challenge. Perhaps bypassing the bus route, really early morning wake-up, struggle to balance multiple needs of kids, etc on a few key days would make it easier on everybody. You could even plan a trip to the coffeeshop after you drop her off as a reward to yourself for having the foresight to plan ahead...or maybe that is just what I would do!


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