# Help.... 5 year old hurting his two year old brother



## geogirl (Mar 2, 2002)

Please help me! What would you do in this situation? From the other room I heard my five year old say "put your fingers in there" to his two year old brother and then I heard a slam. I ran into the room and they were both standing up by the window. I asked him what he had asked he brother to do, he said that he wanted him to put his hand on the train table, I aksed again he said another place and I asked again and he said on the window. I said that I thought he tried to smash his fingers int he window. He said oh yeah I'm sorry. I flipped and said many things that I now regret and will apologize for (such as not wanting to be near him if he was going to try to hurt his brother). So I feel so upset now and I have no idea AT ALL what should happen in a situation like this. Ugh I feel like things are so out of control at times. Please give me your ideas on what to do.

Thanks so much.

Rebecca


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

No answers, but here is another Rebecca is waiting to share in other's wisdom as well. The other day my 5 YO slammed his 22 mo. old sister's head between his bedroom door and the doorframe in an effort to keep her out of his room. Sounds like you controlled yourself better than I did -- this was the one and only time I ever struck my son. It was a very ugly scene all the way around! I so hope someone has good advise!


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

hmmmm... we have similar situations with my 4yo ds and his 1yo little brother. DS1 was perrrrrrffect until 1yo came along. 1yo is very intense, high-needs. 4yo is very easy and laid-back. However, with the birth of little brother, I've seen this mean-streak that I never knew existed. I can totally see him doing the same exact thing that your little one did.








I'm so confused, too. I periodically search the boards, but haven't seen many threads on this.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

easy. Your children are 5 and 2 and shouldn't be left unsupervised ever. they obviously don't know how toplay nicely and lack of supervision and direction and teaching have led to them coming up with silly childish things to do (I mean really in thier mind this is no different than cutting his hair or gluing on his underware or pinching him. this is what kids do when they are unsuoervised before they are ready)

So you can do a search on my name if you want the details because i feel like I have said it a million times . Stay right by your kids. stuck like glue. That way you wilk be aware of thier interaction and can step in when need be. they will not be given over to bordom which is what leads to that kind of behavior. You can give that five year old something productive to do with those hands







Also it will be easier to head off the temptation to lie when you really do see everything. if someone strikes out at the other you will be right there to block it. Since you are worried that your 5 year oldmay injure your two year old I would keep them both within arms reach. either sitting at your feet playing or coloring or walking around with you helping with the household tasks. as they prove they can be trusted and can choose wise ways to play and ointeract you can sloooooowly let out the lease. so they are in the same room as you and then solong as you can see them and then so long as you can hear them and then off playing again (I am talking a couple of years though.) If you get clostrophobic give them some individual time in thier rooms everyday so you can get some personal space. but for the most part 24/7, 7 days a week keep them within arms reach. they will learn so much just being with you and witness and beng a part of your normal every day here and there interactions. you will also be able to direct and teach them if they are close. Sounds familiar. Like what someone told about your newborn. I think many AP parents (myself included. I sent my dd to "go play" waaaaaaay to soon and we have a lot of ground to make up. our relationship was wrecked by my over expectations and now we are rebuilding, anyway) send thier kids to go play before they are ready and then whine when thier children do things that could have easily been delt with with proper supervision in the first place.

So supervise supervise supervise. Anddon't think that means you are stuck in the playroom all day. they can grab a toy or whatever and come with you. my kids were resistant at first but they adjusted.

good luck.


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## mama_kass (Jan 11, 2003)

Very Good advice Lilyka!


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Lilyka - ITA. Great advice. I think that the lack of supervision is definitely an issue, at least it is in my house. We are temporarily living in a 1 bedroom and it claustrophobic. So, it's easy to imagine the scenario: I get frustrated, the children get frustrated, etc. I tell one to "go play." I feel like I constantly need extra space for my head to clear. Unfortunately, for us, it is unavoidable right now. But in a few months, we'll be able to start house hunting and personal space for everyone is my top priority. That said, I feel like I, too, will need to do some rebuilding with my older child.









Thanks for sharing. There is some really great advice in this thread that makes me feel like I'm not alone, that there are some solutions, and that I can do something about it.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

OK Lilyka, you have a good point, supervision is key. But do you never go to the bathroom? Or change a tampon? Or have the flu (and are thus vomiting)? I'm sorry, but there are definitely times that I just flat out cannot deal with my children being that close to me!


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Rebecca,

I take the little one with me to the kitchen when I'm cooking and to the bathroom when I need to use it. I never leave the almost 4yo alone with the almost 1yo.

When they are playing, I am right there *always* helping to mediate. I say things like,

Excuse me little brother, you're in my way

Big brother, don't grab from me, I was playing with that.

I am always always always giving them a language to work out their differences.

Today when my son was playing with a friend who came for a play date, he said, "Friend, when you are done playing with that train, can I have a turn?" (*my* son the one who always likes to grab things from others--I couldn't believe it)

and right away I said, "yes, son, your friend will tell you when he is done because your friend is good at sharing" THis helped my almost 4yo be patient and helped his friend realize that it was ok to play with the toy and to feel positive about giving it to my son later (which he did).

This is not something that happened overnight. THis is something I work on day in and day out.

I recommend reading, "siblings without rivalry" and "how to talk so kids will listen...." You can find these books in the GD sticky to get the authors.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

My 2 and 4 year old sit outside the bathroom door and occaisionally my 8 year old if she is in a surley can't get along with anyone mood. She doesn't require quite so much supervision because I can trust her in some instances to play alone. the four year I could trust also (but wouldn't put the two of them together) but she just loves spending time with me and the 2 year old just is still such a baby.

As far as being sick no I have never been sick since I started parenting this way. (maybe because all this supervision has led to more hand washing







"oh no you didn't touch that!!







: go wash your hands!! with soap!! ) but I am sure that day will come and when it does I will park on the couch, allow a little more TV and conduct from the couch. Its not like I would get any help anyway







and they are already used to being close to me. So it isn't like they would feel grounded. They are accustomed to playing where I am. Actually now that I have thought about more how much easier are kids that stick close than ones that are dumping shampoo out in the hall and one that are slamming fingers in the winow? How is that easier. It is always hard when you are sick but if your kids are used to hangingout right by you they wil and if they are used to being off getting away with stuff then they will and really who has the enrgy to deal with that when you are sick.

Granted there will be times when I can't have all or even any of them within arms reach. Some times we just wander away from each other. But for the most part if I run down stairs to switch out the laundry they come with me. one "helps" pull it out and one goes and gets the dryer sheet (I know I know but static is so bad this time of year ). If I am cooking they stand on either side of me and help while Madeline tidies up or finishes up school work. We keep a basket of toys down stairs and rotate often. Both Lilyka and MAdeline are allowed to go one at a time to rotate toys or take stuff like laundry upstairs (we live in a very small yet four story house so yeah, this is a pain), or get school supplies. believe it or not it is very efficient though. I think I stay on task better when I know I am being studied. Ava though, nothing good comes from her wandering off alone. She is into everything so if she is going to be into I need be beside to take anything dangerous from her or her path whichever ismore appropriate.

And for clotrophobia, she takes a three hour nap every day which i know is n its way out so right now the kids go to there own rooms when she is falling asleep and that is when I have my mee time. 2 blissful hours in the hardest part of the day. then for that last hour hey may come down stairs with me or remain in thier rooms. they almost always remain in thier rooms engrossed in whatever. and often they will talk through the shared vent because that is just so cool. Thier relationship is getting better now too since no one is fighting for my attention, and they have been spending so much time together interacting.

and there is more to what we have done than that. we have really limited TV and videos, books that have characters with bad attitudes, toys in general,chaos all over to create a more peaceful home and less bad influences. We always supervise playdates because bring in such strange ideas and when one six year old hears her mother say *** and then she tells another 6 year old **& and that six year old comes and tells Madz *&& it makes me think HUH? but now that I hear what is going on I can correct misinformtation and go back to the parent and say "where did she get this??" and usually we can trace it back to the original person and why she would think that way and how it changed from each girl. why is this good you ask? becuase for a while I was thinking of ousting dd best friend because she kept saying really off things but after finding out how it traveled down the line and seeing that her mom was just as disturbed as I was we both decided they needed more supervision so we could explain and give correct informataion. We also limit outside activities for the same reason. until I feel they have social skills I can trust, a firm foundation of what our family thinks is important and I can trust that our relationship is strong I want to keep her as close as possible.

I am much calmer now clostrophobia and all. At least now I am not having to dseal with a zillion horrible things a day. no one picking the paint off the wall, shaving thier sisters head, breaking windows to watch the glass fall, cutting everything in sight, sneaking food up to thier room that rots, sqeezing out every tube of everything, putting who knows what that tase is but it isn;t tooth paste on all the tooth brushes and another and another and another fight. being reative was killing me and my relationship with my dds. This takes a little getting used to and doesn't produce perfect children over night. it is a lot of work but I have to say, parenting every minute of the day as hard as it is works better for me than cleaning up after children and getting mad at them because I wasn't watching them, and wasn't teaching them and giving them better ideas. after a while it just got easier. and is starting to feel more natrual. for all of us.

sorry to hyjack . . . back to our regularly scheduled discussion


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, Lilyka, this seems like a perfect example of very different strokes for different folks.

If I tried to insist that my children sat anywhere for more than 30 seconds (e.g. less time than I need in the bathroom), we would have a big problem. It is just not in their nature to sit still unless they are working on something really, really interesting and there just aren't that many facinating things for them to do while they wait for me to use the toilet. I cannot begin to imagine what sort of "discipline" (read abuse) it would take for me to accomplish this sort of behaviour. Not saying that's what it took you, just commenting that different children might not allow you to do what you are doing. For me, it would feel like I was squelching my children's natural desires to explore and play for my own convenience. Your solution also feels like overkill. I have an occassional problem with siblings not behaving well to one another, but your solution is a total 24/7 make over.

Do you feel like you are restraining them from what they should be doing, developmentally? As I see it, my 2 YO's "task" for this age is to learn to play independently, moving ever further away from me. Being arm's reach from her at all times would seem to negate any opportunity for that. I would rather let her explore, develope, and occassionally get a little hurt, than not allow her to develop the way she is supposed to. Not to mention the inherent disrespect of making her stop her interesting play to allow me to attend to my needs of nature.

I cannot imagine keeping my little one safe in the kitchen when I was actually cooking. Prep, maybe, but not cooking. Standing next to me while I was working would expose them to razor-sharp knives, very high heat ovens and stovetops, spattering oil... I shudder even to think about it. Nope, when I'm cooking, they need to be out of the kitchen.

Finally, I am going to guess that neither you nor your children are introverts, of if you/they are you aren't respecting those needs. Although I am always within earshot of my children, the idea of them being that close to me all day makes my skin crawl. And my son wouldn't like it either. Not sure about daughter's temperment yet.

Different goals, different children, different levels of risk tolerance, different parenting decisions. After reflecting on your post, I've decided that I'm OK with the occassional spat and negative interactions. Sure couldn't live in your house or your style!

I have been meaning to find "Siblings without rivelry."

Anyone else have some less-drastic suggestions?


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

why do i always find the threads that i can really relate to and learn from when I have ot get off of the computer?







:


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

*


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

This wasnot an easy switch for us but we had to do something because the kids wereoutof control and I was really hating being thier mom. My oldest dd and I are both huge introverts and I would be perfectly content to only see them in passing during the day. But then my middle child (huge extrovert) would be running around annoying everyone because her needs need to be met also. Madeline does get her time to herself. She is 8. responded really well to closer supervision and can now be trusted for short periods by herself. Also when Madleine is gone Lily gets run of the house since she has no one to bother. But now she just usually chooses to stick close to me. I don't know, maybe the design of our house makes it easier (yet also necessitates the be where i can see you part) but they all have room to explore and yes even occaisionally get hurt falling off the arm of the couch or some stupid thing. I don't spend all day doing just what I want to do either. I make sure there is plenty of timein the playroom andplently of fun things to do in the downstairs. As for cooking, I am uncoordinated and hate havingmy children under foot while I cook (Lily has the scar to prove it . . . and I was just doing dishes that day







) so until we were in a place where they could be in the next room I didn't do any fancy cooking. lots of crock pot, ordering out, and occasionally asking older dd to watch the baby for me or cooking while the 2 year old slept and the big girls were in thier rooms for quiet time. the really intesive phase only lasted about 6 weeks for us and then we could start spreading out more. especially Madleine. Also since I got reaccuainteed with them it was easier forme to know how to respond and catch moods before they became actions. That is the goal. And as for my personal space I need it like a crazy person. That is why the girls do quiet time while the baby sleeps anbd then I have glorious hours tomyself when they are in bed. But in the end even if I didn't have that I am the momand have to do what is best for the children even if it isn't what I want for myself. In the end I stillhave Lily who chooses to have her extroverted need for touch met in the most irritating ways possible when I am not present to intentionally meet her needs for that (I don't know if that came across right . . what I mean is I can either be thier chatting with her, doing crafts, playing dolls etc or she can be climbing on me, do drive by abuse on me such as running by and throwing things at me or picking fights with her sisters. I would rather the attention I give her be positive







but either way she will get it)

Oh and by sitting outside by the bathroom door I mean running up and down the hall and occaisionally wandering off. and if the wander we just recollect.







no big. it isn't like I spend hours in the bathroom. They can only get so far in the time it takesme to pee. I keep the paint and scissors and matches far enough from the bathroom door









It really isn't as bad as it seemed (and it seemed like the end of the world for me when someone suggested it). But it isn't for everyone. But if you say to me "my kids are doing XXX" my only logical response can be "where were you? Why was your baby left alone?" becuase it is somehtingthat never occured to me until someone just said it and if it helps one person parent more gently and feel better about being a paret then I will say it till I am blue. It is so simple yet so different from what any one I know in real life (except for one friend who did it with me and is also much calmer today







)

But I understand it is really different thanmost people do it but I gues I just think it is developmentally apropriate for children to act up and do silly childish things when thier parents are watching, and I think iti s really hard for children to learn how to act if they so rarely see how people act in certain situation and never recieve guidence in ones thier parents have grown out of unless they are actually in the presence of adults the majority of thier time. But I am hyjacking (and I apologize







) so if anyone has questions about how it actually does work I am obviously more that happy to share so feel free to PM me.


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## loftmama (Feb 12, 2004)

Lilyka - I love what you're doing with your girls. I think my boys would respond well to more involvement from me. They love being in the kitchen and I am usually so annoyed by it that my annoyance spreads to them and then they play in another room, annoyed and take it out on each other. I have seen these things called a tower stool, or something like that and I've been thinking it would be the perfect place for my youngest to hang out in the kitchen while I give him something harmless to do to keep him busy, etc. Then my oldest can hang out, too, on the step stool, or play in the next room if he wants to be alone.

Since I read this thread, I've been implementing some of Lilyka's advice and it has been so nice. Already I've seen some very nice results. What's amazed me is that instead of being more stressed b/c I have less time to do certain things, I'm actually less stressed. I guess b/c I'm not wondering where they are and constantly being interrupted to fix/explain/amend/etc a situation. Since my ds1 has been jealous of ds2, I can tell it's really good for him. I LIKE your suggestion. I think it's just the thing. Thanks for sharing!









Oh, one more thing. I read somewhere that children SHOULD NOT be responsible for their own safety (i.e. playing in a street, that kind of thing). I added to that they should not be responsible for little sibling's safety either. About a year after ds2 was born, ds1 was crying about not wanting ds2. Of the many reasons he gave (too much work, always getting diapers, picking up diapers, getting wipies...) the thing that struck me was: keeping him safe. I realized that he felt like it was this huge responsibility of his which was preventing him from just hanging out, having fun, and being a friend to his little brother. I immediately changed the situation and let him know that it was mommy and daddy's job to keep him and his brother safe. He has certain responsibilities, sure, but that would not be his job anymore. Having fun with his brother would be. Now, looking back, I can see that I changed the rule, but didn't fully step in to do the monitoring Lilyka mentions. Now, I see that has been the missing element. I am happy to see how to continue my AP style.

Off to search for Siblings Without Rivalry. Definitely a book I need to check out!


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## gcmama (Oct 23, 2004)

Lilyka,

Although we don't have the OP's situation in our home, I really like what you are doing with your children. I'm going to make a few changes in our home...thanks for sharing!


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## Melis (Jan 27, 2005)

Ladies, I am sitting here with tears rolling down my face. This has been one of the absolute worst weeks of my life. I am soooo fortunate to have found you. As one of you mentioned, I think it was Lilyka (and fogive me if I cannot remember who said what and screen names - I am so exhausted), I am at the point that I can't stand being "momma". This week I've woken up everyday and wanted to cry because I just feel like I cannot take another minute of this torture. Let me explain so that someone doesn't read this and think I'm horrible. I am a SAHM and like another poster, have two boys, ages 1.5 and 3.5...Both of my boys are so beautiful and wonderful - the joys of my life, but have two has been a real challenge for me. Ben (3.5) was the most happy, attached baby boy until Sam (1.5) came along. I see that most of their difference lie in in the differences between have 1 and 2. Today when Ben was acting out I asked him why he was behaving so naught and he said, "I learned it from Sammy." I am seeing a lot of regression and I also see a lot of age-appropriate behaviour. BUT, what I see and know in my heart is what Lilyka so gently reminded me of...I really needed to hear it, although I don't want to believe it because I am already spread so thin and am exhausted. I believe that a lot of reason that Ben was so "easy" is because I was always with him 24/7. Now that he's getting older, I have CLEARLY expected too much from him. It's not that I want to be "away" from them. In fact, I never leave them with anyone and even though I do believe that it gives moms time away to become refreshed, it's not for me. I don't do unsupervised playgroups either. I love being with my children, I guess I've just been so desperate to have some time in the house to do the things I so desperately want to do (like getting organized, tidying up, meal planning, self-improvement such as reading books and researching health and nutrition and parenting...sound familiar?). I truly believe in spending as much time with your children because before you blink it will be over, but resent that we cannot even do other household things without eveything falling apart. BUT, I understand and know what I must do. Lilyka, thanks again for the reminders and for sharing that you really HAVE been there and it isn't easy. To all the other ladies, thanks for reminding me that I'm not alone. I would love to share more, but the end of naptime is fast approaching. We should make a daily thread where we check in on the "24/7 supervision changes" to see how everyone is doing...especially since it seems like we are all dealing with children around the same ages and siblings. Thanks again! I look forward to chatting some more








Melissa
Ben 3.5
Sam 1.5


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## Melis (Jan 27, 2005)

I also wanted to thank Pumpkinseeds for reminding me of what really works. I use to do alot of what you are suggesting before I "fell off my wagon" and started expecting too much from the boys. I feel so much more positive going forward...DH and I are going to have quite a discussion tonight







You know, I'm going to confess something to you gals. I have been such a hyprocrite when it comes to DH...I am always getting frustrated with him because I feel like he expects too much from the boys and then I turn around and get angry when he won't let them be independent...Hmmm...maybe I should have him pick up some beer for tonight...

Melissa


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