# Gently curbing repetition and endless rituals with 2.5 year old?



## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Hi there,

My 2.5 year old girl has got me wrapped around her little finger! (kind of).

I am wondering if anyone can give me specific advice on how to handle a problem we're developing to do with endless repetition of things, rituals if you like. It comes in a specific form (see example below) - but seems to be affecting lots of other things too.

Here's a specific example. Bedtime (oh the dreaded bedtime) and nap time. Let me preface by saying that the below takes place after dinner, bath, milk, and bedtime stories (stories last about 20 minutes).

Finish bedtime stories (in a chair by her cot).

Carry LO to bed (cot/crib).

Goodnight cuddles/kisses.

Then the fun begins....

'Touch the backs and the fronts of the books!'

(Don't ask me how this weird thing started, but I have to go and get the bedtime stories and she has to touch them before I leave. Something I'd like to stop completely, but can't figure out how to without a tantrum!)

Me: Lie down now and give caterpillar a cuddle.

Lies down.

'Sit bear up!'

And this is where we have our real problem. She has a bear (well, obviously) - and I have to sit it up multiple, multiple, MULTIPLE times at the end of her bed in a certain way, not too fast or too slow etc.

*THEN....*

'Do it again!'

'Sit bear up again!'

'Do it again!'

'Again!'

Springs up onto feet.

'Again! Again! Again!'

*And on and on...*

All the while, she's smiling, laughing, having a good old time.

Sigh. I'm so tired at the end of the day especially, that I get quite close to losing it. But the odd time I've gotten cross, ends in tears...and bedtime becomes completely out of whack...so I resist with all my might being visibly irritated. Sometimes I find myself threatening that I'm going to GET cross (Mummy's going to get cross soon...) - which, in some ways is just as bad. She still smiles through that though, she's not getting the concept of a cross Mummy (which is good) - unless I actually get angry of course.

Having said all that, the only way I have managed to even slightly control this is by pretending to leave the room, which sets her off in a minor tizzy, but after the minor whinge/tizzy, she relents and asks me to sit bear up 'the last time'. Which nearly works each time. There must be a better way?

I've tried talking to her during the day about how we will only do it X (3?) times or whatever. She understands this perfectly well when not in bed, and IN bed, even COUNTS with me. I've tried this tactic over and over again, but I still get 'again! again! again!'. Limits be damned!

Firstly, it's not a massive problem...I'm usually out of her room within ten minutes of actually putting her in bed...so it's not the end of the world. However, this same behaviour is spilling over into other things. If we make the mistake of doing something just ONE time (like letting her watch a small video after her nap) - then it seems we are now doomed into having it repeat daily! She now gets more screen time daily than I'd like (about an hour in total?) because what was a once-a-day video, is now x3.

Our day is SO rigid and seemingly unchangeable, it's a little bit scary. She even gets up in the morning sometimes and announces: 'First change 'undies', then breakfast, then videos...' etc.

Maybe I'm being gutless in not laying down some firmer 'rules' - but the truth is...it seems so much easier to grit my teeth, and give in - just for some peace. I also have an understanding that in toddler world it is quite important for their growing autonomy to feel some sense of control. I also know that at bedtimes, she'd rather I stayed - but I have never done that...and don't want to relinquish my 'independent sleeper' anytime soon.

So hear I am....and I guess the question is:

*How can I work on limiting repetitive rituals like this - whilst still being gentle and kind?*

Any help or pointers to some advice would be MOST appreciated.

I feel like I'm missing something really obvious about how to handle it?

Thanks.


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## dovey (May 23, 2005)

If it makes you feel any better, I think it might be a developmental thing. My 2.5 year old is pretty obsessed with rituals as well. For example, he will want to be let in from the yard and one of his siblings opens the door for him. He starts freaking out and having a tantrum because I'm the only one who he wants to open the door for him. So usually I go back, close the door like he wants and then open it again. Like you said, it's just easier that way. But I can see such an issue becoming a much larger problem if it had to do with bedtime or screen time.....

Usually I find that if I set a boundary with my toddler, he will be very upset and cry a lot the first time, but then he understands that it is set in stone, and he doesn't ask again. For awhile, he would ask for sips of his dad's diet soda, (something I didn't think was a very good idea). I finally put my foot down because he started to want more and more sips throughout the meal and I set a boundary around the issue. You may not have a sip. That's a grownup drink. It is not for kids. He was pretty upset for one or two meals, but then he accepted it, and he doesn't ask at all anymore.

Maybe you can do something similar with the bedtimes and videos. Set a simple boundary at bedtime - No touching books or bears. It's bedtime now. And then stick to it, even if your child gets mad. Then once she knows that you mean it, maybe she won't ask anymore.

I'll be watching this thread, hoping for more ideas!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think that you are mistaking you being gentle and kind with her being happy all the time. They are different things. You can gently and kindly say no. That's the part that you are responsible for. Her reaction is a different deal altogether. Whether she is happy or not doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you are gentle.

It's ok to say no about videos or arranging the bear or whatever. You can set boundaries. Although it will make her unhappy at first, this is a lesson you will have to teach her at some point. The longer you put it off the worse it will get. The sooner you do it, the more you get to enjoy your dd and - honestly - the happier she will be.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Thank you both for those posts and thoughts. I definitely think the problem is something to do with me not wanting her to get upset. She's a very feisty young thing (aren't they all? I don't honestly know!) - but mostly a fairly happy kiddie. But when there are tears, bedtime....in particular becomes a long protracted miserable affair. Perhaps I have to accept this happening a few times though, in order to break some cycles? I'm just so scared of it.







A bit pathetic of me...but just my honest feelings. Perhaps it's because, mostly, we don't really have to discipline her much at all (thus far). And I just have no clue.

One of the reasons I'm so paranoid about bedtime, is my own sleep is very bad (see chronic insomnia thread in mental health forum). Whilst I know it's perfectly normal to have these ups and downs and challenges, on the whole, she is a good sleeper...and life is not too bad - but when something goes 'wrong', I'm not very good at coping with how it might affect MY nights sleep. E.g. Today she got upset at nap time, so I got her up. No nap. On no nap days, we try for an early bedtime, but this backfires spectacularly, as every time we try an early bedtime she wakes up distressed in the middle of the night (which doesn't normally happen). So...I guess I do everything within my power to try and keep her 'happy' at both naptime and bedtime...more for my own sake. Hmm.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

I guess there is just a weird thing for me about bedtimes (and her getting to sleep happily, and getting the right amount) - it's a shame little kids don't just choose all other times of the day to play around, and save their best behaviour and sweetness for night time!

Video's are different, sort of - as sometimes I have said no - she has thrown a wobbly, then gotten over it fairly fast....

Again, I think I'm being a bit timid about it, for fear of rocking the boat. But during the day, handling the 'wobbly' that occurs just seems a lot more manageable...for one, there is distraction. No distraction possible at bedtime though. We are trying to cut down on the x3, and the last couple of days have managed to get it down to x2....but I still feel like I'm not in control of any of it really.

I think you're both right - I do need to stop these things escalating. And they do escalate. First it was sit bear up once or twice - now....? Well, all the fingers and the toes in the room doesn't cover it.

Also - setting boundaries is good for all of us. I know this...I just need to get over my own feelings I guess? Though I'm trying to imagine myself being firm...and eeek! I can see how difficult it's going to be.

I'm struggling (maybe because I'm so exhausted) - to think of how to even simply SAY no in an effective way. At the moment, I whisper to her...but it's mostly waffle...like: 'Mummy has to go downstairs now....mummy doesn't want to sit bear up...we've already done bear ten times....lie down and cuddle caterpillar (argh!)....one LAST time...okay just one last time...' Waffle. Waffle. Waffle!

Does anyone want to pop around and do it for me??


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

It sounds to me like she is pushing the limits. She doesn't want you to leave and is trying to get you to stay by insisting you keep sitting the bear up and touch the books, etc. You probably will have a couple of hard nights once you set the limit, but it'll just get worse if you don't.


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

I agree with the others. I had some repeated-ritual-and-specific-bossing-around going on when my ds1 was that age too (he even tends toward this now at age 8!) It was driving me crazy and I had to learn to just stop the cycle and lie silent at bedtime instead. The only thing that works is just not negotiating - when I give in and think keeping him happy will end up with him happy, it never works! This is the right time/age to set the absolute limit on the bedtime rituals. And an absolute limit on the video- if you agree to one video, then after the one, the tv goes off (unplugged, put the remote up out of reach, whatever), in a friendly, "that was the one video, now let's do something else!" kind of way, if that works best. Like others said, the first time will be the worst, but she will learn that you're serious and probably won't continue to test these rules as much over time.


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## BabySmurf (Apr 27, 2011)

I do think this is a developmental thing. DS was never much into routines, but has needed them lately, so we have set them up, and having a routine has helped a ton. But now that we have a routine, he has boundaries to test. And it's not that he's being evil, and it's not that participating in his requests aren't helping him. But I can see how it can easily spin out of control and those little extras will need to be incorporated into the routine. That hasn't happened for us yet, but reading your post set of an alarm in my head that it's probably heading that way.

I have been looking at the Aha Parenting website a lot lately, and realized that I have been a totally permissive parent (it just kind of suited our lifestyle and quite honestly, like you describe with your DD, I never had to discipline much because he always just went a long with things). What makes a HUGE difference is the inflection you use in your voice. If I don't have confidence in my voice that this IS the last time, then he will totally ask for more. It's not about being rough or demanding, it's about having confidence that he will follow. If it sounds like I don't think he will follow, or if the inflection in my voice indicates that it's a choice or a question, he will treat it like it's a choice. And then I've set myself up for failure because I've indicated that there is a choice when their isn't, and that's not really good for either of us.

I like what a PP said about not being able to control their reaction. Sometimes it makes him upset, and I am empathetic to those emotions, but that doesn't change the fact that it still is the last time. Once I acknowledge his emotions, (and for him point out that it's not that we can't EVER do this again, but for tonight we are all done - he thinks that last time means last time EVER, so if I say we can do it again tomorrow, he feels better), he will usually say "okay" and go along with bedtime, or whatever else we need to accomplish. I do think that kids need to have those boundaries set and to know that we are in control so that they feel safe. But that doesn't mean that we have to be crazy disciplinarians to accomplish it.

I would try not to change too many things at once, maybe pick one thing to eliminate per week or something. That way it's not too many changes all at once. And I would describe what is going to happen beforehand, like you are, but with more confidence and finality in your voice, then matter of factly stick to it, while being empathetic to her feelings. I wouldn't make a big deal/use big emotions about of it being the "last time" or whatever, but I would definitely make sure that you empathize with how it makes her feel, that way you aren't setting up an expectation that it will or should be upsetting, but you can understand if she does find it to be that way. Which she probably will, at least the first couple of times. but once that boundary has been set, then she won't need to test it anymore.

I hope that makes sense?


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Thank you for the further thoughts. For something seemingly simple - I'm doing a great job of complicating it for myself enormously, I know. I did try yesterday being more firm - but, I just find it impossible to keep my talking (waffling...explaining...reasoning) to a minimum. I somehow feel compelled to EXPLAIN to her why it's not okay...but then find I don't have any good 'reasons'.

That, and I'm also deeply afraid...(I'm chuckling to myself, but it is actually true)...of the tantrum. I just didn't realise how much until I posted this thread.

We have 'minimised' the number of bear-sit-ups a little...and we've got her down to x2 video sessions a day (total of 30-40 mins max screen time, which I'm a lot more comfortable with) - but we are still touching books...and although slightly less, are still having the 'again! again! again!' business.

When I say: We're only going to sit bear up once. I just get: I want to sit bear up again! Then it becomes a silly back and forth...'no, once.' 'no, again', etc. According to above wisdom (no sarcasm, I think all the advice has been great, thanks)...I should just leave the room....?? I just don't dare!









She is very verbal and communicative, and I know she understands 99% of what we talk about, and can negotiate. I have been drumming home the message during the day - but am weirdly not sure what to say: 'We will only sit bear up three times tonight...'??? Sounds kind of ridiculous doesn't it? I've tried a small compromise, where I tell her I will only sit him up ONE LAST TIME, if it IS the LAST time -- and this has worked....when she's in a good mood.

*Babysmurf*: I do like your idea of doing things slowly and one at a time. I think she would respond MUCH much better to a slower kind of withdrawal, or change in habits, definitely. In terms of inflection and voice - I try to whisper most of the time...to stop her getting all jumpy and excited. It kind of works. If I whisper: 'Lie down'. She will, every time. But then will pop up again. Ha ha. Just curious - what would you say instead of 'this is the last time'? I'm sure there are a myriad of things I could be saying during these minutes, but I seem to only be capable of one's that turn into a giant ping-pong of wits with her!

Last night, when I was failing to be firm, I realised that she is a huge creature of habit/routine. That may or may not be our doing, as she is a very 'scheduled' child (not activities, just eating/sleeping/bathing etc) - I've always been immensely strict on all that, so she may be picking it up off me, or maybe by nature she is quite orderly, regimented, and habitual. Either way, last night, when she instantly went into: 'Sit bear up again!' - it occurred to me that she's just doing it on total *autopilot*. She's done this every night for a few weeks (?) now, so from HER point of view, it is a part of her bedtime routine. It kind of just POPS out of her mouth, without too much thought involved. So, I can see why (even if I don't like it) - that she freaks out when I don't participate, and play my role in the ritual.

This makes me wonder about some kind of substitution instead of outright denial, on my part? Some way to just break the cycle - i.e. a distraction that won't throw the whole of bedtime into chaos.

Having said that, I did offer her a final kiss and a cuddle last night instead of 'sitting bear up' - but that didn't get accepted. Maybe it's worth pursuing though? (Can imagine scenario's where I'm KISSING bear goodnight three million times instead. Oh dear.) ****

I'm thinking about it too much I'm sure. And I do know that all the advice I've received is spot on. I do find it an interesting thing though, as on one level I can't help thinking it's not a big deal - so what if she gets her own way for ten minutes every bedtime. On the other hand....well, have already mentioned how I think it's going to not do anyone any favours as she gets bigger and even more demanding.

Also I can see into the future, that we're going to have problems getting rid of her bottle...(boy is she attached to that before bedtime and in the morning!) and, well, lots of other things - if I can't get a handle on how to do this now.

I wish I was a lot less exhausted, and therefore able to better contemplate a couple of nights/days of disruption. Hmmm.

** Just as an aside. She has a book called Russell The Sheep. Russell can't sleep and does various things to help him sleep, include counting the stars. 'Six billion million....and ten'.

Occasional nights when an ordinary number won't do I get asked to sit bear up.....you guessed it....six billion million and ten times. Ha!

Sometimes, you just have to laugh.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I just wanted to add that another benefit to learning how to set a firm boundary is that you avoid future battles. Your child knows in each new situation that when you set a boundary, that is what will happen. They may test it a bit to make sure, but if you have history of being consistent, it just becomes normal not to fight about these things.

Also, I have a chronic negotiator, too, and I definitely find myself talking way too much about discipline stuff sometimes. Sometimes I just have to say "i am all done talking about this," and then refuse to engage any more. One other thing that helps me is having silent time, where I don't talk at all to my DD, but still focus my attention in her. It helps us both get out of that back and forth cycle, out of the verbal rut. When talking is out of the picture, new tools present themselves. IDK, it's just something I've found helpful.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newmamalizzy*
> 
> I just wanted to add that another benefit to learning how to set a firm boundary is that you avoid future battles. Your child knows in each new situation that when you set a boundary, that is what will happen. They may test it a bit to make sure, but if you have history of being consistent, it just becomes normal not to fight about these things.
> 
> Also, I have a chronic negotiator, too, and I definitely find myself talking way too much about discipline stuff sometimes. Sometimes I just have to say "i am all done talking about this," and then refuse to engage any more. One other thing that helps me is having silent time, where I don't talk at all to my DD, but still focus my attention in her. It helps us both get out of that back and forth cycle, out of the verbal rut. When talking is out of the picture, new tools present themselves. IDK, it's just something I've found helpful.


I don't want to stress myself (I'm already a stress machine) too much about how it could get worse...or how I'm not being a good enough parent (eek) - though obviously those things cross my mind all the time anyway. But I agree with what you (and the others) have said about setting up a precedent. It totally makes sense.

Also - just rereading through the replies I've had, I see that being silent IS something of a useful tool. There have been nights after I've asked her to lie down...that I just shut up for as long as I can - and perhaps this has diffused things a little, and made the next bit quicker/easier?

Maybe I need to be a whole lot less talky....hmm. I will dwell on this alternative way of handling it, or at least an adjunct tool. Thank you.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newmamalizzy*
> 
> Also, I have a chronic negotiator, too, and I definitely find myself talking way too much about discipline stuff sometimes. Sometimes I just have to say "i am all done talking about this," and then refuse to engage any more.


I think that refusing to continue to engage on a subject can be helpful--I've not gotten to this point with my kid, but I've read some stuff advocating it. After you've explained the boundaries a couple of times, if they keep asking, you could say something like "We already discussed this and the answer is no. Asking again won't get a different answer, it'll just irritate Mommy." That might help get you out of the "no, once"/"no, again" game.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> When I say: We're only going to sit bear up once. I just get: I want to sit bear up again! Then it becomes a silly back and forth...'no, once.' 'no, again', etc. According to above wisdom (no sarcasm, I think all the advice has been great, thanks)...I should just leave the room....?? I just don't dare!


" want to sit bear up again!"

" You want bear to sit up a lot! I'm just doing it the one more time, and then we can (hug, kiss, sing, whatever) and then I have to go (brief activity like laundry or whatever). Then I'll check back on you." (this is just hwo things went in my house, you say whatever it is you need to here).

(tantrum)

"You're really upset that I won't keep sitting bear up. I'm sorry you're so sad about it. I'm happy to {hug, sing, etc.} but I'm done playing with bear right now." (wait to see if she wants any of the other options, and only do those once).

(continued tantrum)

"I'll sit her with you while you get that sad out." (hug or comfort however you do).

If she keeps saying, "Again!" or "I want bear to sit up again!" I'd just reply, "I know you do. We can do it again tomorrow, but I'm done playing that for tonight." Like a kind, but unwavering broken record. lol. You can be empathetic, and gentle, and kind, but firm. You don't have to keep explaining it to her, or arguing with her. Just be with her while she processes it (if that's what soothes her. Some kids hate being comforted and want to just get it out).


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## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

We had a similar thing where 2 year old DD wanted to read and read and read and wanted me to do all the reading at bedtime. She wasn't talking as well at the time so it was "more! MOOOOORE!!!!!! " then cue the screaming, thrashing tantrum (while on the potty - FUN!!!) We compromised on two long books and decided to take turns and had a couple of rough bedtimes but it all blew over and we have a new routine we're all happy with. I don't have chronic insomnia but I am pretty pregnant and my emotions are all out of whack so I'd like to think I can relate in a small way. I'm not trying to minimize things but if you get it over with then you'll have a few rough evenings. If you don't put your foot down then not only will you have stressful evenings but it'll weigh on you and you will likely stress over it which certainly won't help you get the rest you need.







I read your insomnia thread and my heart goes out to you. I have intermittent problems going back to sleep and am an absolute wreck after a bad night so I can't even imagine what you feel like most days. I just think the more you wait and debate, the harder it will be because you're exhausting yourself in the process. Try to turn off your mouth/brain and prepare a script.
"last time we sit up bear today"
"again!!"
"we are all done for tonight. We will sit bear up again tomorrow."
"AGAIN!!!!!!"
"all done for tonight. More tomorrow"
"AGAAAAAAAIN!!!!!! Aaaargh!!!!!!" etc
"all done for tonight. More tomorrow. You can have a hug if you like"
And repeat or simply say "good night." and follow the next step whether that's staying or leaving

Good luck!


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## BabySmurf (Apr 27, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> Thank you for the further thoughts. For something seemingly simple - I'm doing a great job of complicating it for myself enormously, I know. I did try yesterday being more firm - but, I just find it impossible to keep my talking (waffling...explaining...reasoning) to a minimum. I somehow feel compelled to EXPLAIN to her why it's not okay...but then find I don't have any good 'reasons'.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
> 
> " want to sit bear up again!"
> 
> ...










that's a great script to start with.

OP, I totally understand what you mean about not feeling like this particular thing being a huge deal. But, it is important that you learn how to set limits with her, and that she learns that you are able to be in control, because it shows her that you are able to keep her safe. It's not about being mean or depriving her, it's about working with her and teaching her how to have limits and how to cope with emotions. kwim?


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

That reminds me of this article I saw recently: http://www.janetlansbury.com/2012/10/if-gentle-discipline-isnt-working-this-might-be-the-reason/


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## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

It sounds like you are really tired because of your sleep issues. But I think being out of her room within 10 minutes of her laying down is amazing. I, for one, don't think there's a big deal with kids negotiating and learning what's acceptable and not. They're trying to figure out what makes sense (for them and others). But as far as a bedtime ritual, what about reading stories in her bed, instead of a chair? That way, she's all relaxed and that's not being interrupted by being carried to bed. You could also, break up the habit a little...by asking her how many times bear has to sit up, and when that's done, that's done. But ask her instead of telling her how many times. If she comes up with a really big number, tell her it must be less than 15 or something. Or give her a choice of 4 or 6? And then maybe read one last story after bear is done. Dunno, my 2.5 year old decides he's hungry sometimes, or asks for water, or whatever, that's just how kids are. We are not super strict about those things and just expect that he'll grow out of it, just like my 5 year old has.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Hi folks.

Thanks PP's for new thoughts. Thanks *lmkl* for adding a different perspective too....I do need to step back occasionally and realise that a lot of these kinds of things are a phase. There are other obsessive things that we/she used to do, that are now history - e.g. pushing the buttons on the alarm system keypad before going to bed (it's defunct, she just always saw the keypad on the way up the stairs and wanted to touch it and key in a different number each night - nothing to do with fear or anything).

I have been running little experiments the last few nights...and have taken inspiration from this thread. Some things have changed, but not the essential fact that the wee one is somehow in charge - OR - a better way of putting it would be that she seems to need to have the very last word.

In the spirit of my first post - this is how we're looking now:

Stories end:

In bed.

Touch books (gah! We got rid of this for two nights - but it's back.)

Lie down.

Sit bear up a specified number of times - 1, 2, and 3. (Have given her the choice of number - 3 is her favourite).

Me walk to door.

Her jump up.

'Come back come back! Sit bear up again.' (Nights gone past this happened MULTIPLE times).

Me come back.

'This is the last one.' (<---- DD)

Sit bear up one last time.

Say goodnight.

Okay - so I'm still 'giving in' to that last demand. But at least it's not happening over and over and OVER again, like previous. When she says it's the last one now...she means it. So something has changed about the dynamic.

I did have a little 'chat' with her a couple of days ago about how I wasn't happy doing multiple bear thing, but I knew she wanted to - could we decide how many times so we can both be happy. Didn't seem to work that night, but maybe it has sunk in a little.

In addition to the above, I have lowered my voice...repeated: No, it's bedtime now...lie down - if needed....AND also incorporated some silence in the mix if she seems like she's going to go beyond the above.

So...I'm out of there in five or so minutes - and I can live with that I think?

I really appreciate some of the thoughts given to me here. Our little one's and their personalities and habits are obviously so unique to them though, that it makes it difficult to find a magic bullet in other people's great advice.

For example, in the great script above. We can't really do the 'I'm just leaving to do X, Y, Z' thing. We tried this quite a few times with night wakings a few months ago, and then again with bedtime distress a few weeks ago...but the little person does not react well to this method at all. In the middle of the night, she would just sit and wait, and sit and wait....then when you poked your head back in...she fired up big time. Ditto with bedtime a while back - she'd just go banana's until we came back...and then needed a whole other half an hour to resettle. It seemed more mean in the end, than just staying for as long as it took to get her comfortable.

And in terms of her getting upset - well, I'm still very reluctant at bedtime. The main reason is that there's a whole OTHER ritual that's never-ending, that goes along with crying...which is: 'Wipe my face! Wipe my face! Again! Again! Again!' etc. Sigh. I don't know how she locks on to these things - obviously I wiped tears away a few months ago...now it is another obsession/comfort/ritual thing. Fortunately she doesn't cry too much - once every second day maybe?

Some days I count myself lucky she is sleeping at all, as she is definitely of the 'spirited' variety. She gets quite locked into things, and doesn't transition terribly easily at all. Even with all the relaxing stories etc...she tends to yabber and talk all the way through them - seemingly on full steam (or just overtired?)...then once finally left alone, STILL takes nearly half an hour to yabber herself to sleep - (sometimes a lot more for naps...so difficult to figure out her naps at the mo, they're all over the place - sometimes conking out, sometimes no nap at all).

Quite quite often she'll fall asleep MID-sentence!

Can't help thinking.....'Sheesh kid - just RELAX would you!?'

Speaking of having the last word. She even says the same thing to me every night as I'm going down the stairs...which is run-together-sentence that goes something like this:

'Where'sDaddyGone?Say'Goodbyeandseeyouinthemorninganddon'tsayitagain!'

Ha.

My response is similar as I'm escaping:

'Daddy'smakingmummyanddaddysdinner.Goodbyeseeyouinthemorning!'

Her: 'Don'tsayitagain!'

Ha!

But she's always been intense like this. Certainly never just dozed off anywhere, for any reason just because she might be tired. (I have a couple of friends with older kids, that always told me just to pop her on a couch, or when she was small, in a bassinet under a table etc. I myself was carted to movies, and parties right up until the age of...well, it never really stopped! I expected to have a child that would do this, fall asleep on a dime - but no!! Feel a bit ripped off I must say!) And she's always been strong willed. Always talkative (with us anyway).

The other lovely idea above was reading stories to her in bed. We aim at that one day - but at the moment it's kind of impossible, physically. Her cot has a rail...I couldn't get her to lie down inside, me holding the books at weird angles and things. We might have to leave stories in bed until she's in a big girl's bed.

So there you go - a little bit of improvement. Enough maybe. Until the next thing (she has taken to licking me goodnight - 'a snail kiss mummy!' instead of kissing - yuk! - so hopefully that one doesn't get out of control.)

Also, I seem to have much bigger problems on my plate right now unfortunately. Still...I think about this type of issue daily, and have gotten lots of useful things out of this thread that I will try and implement where and when I can.

I think my relatives and friends tried to tell me about this aspect of parenting....but who can tell what it's really going to be like.

My situation with her is much-complicated by the insomnia disaster...and the house-build disaster. There are things that we wanted to be doing with her...playgroup...then followed by a little preschool time - but these are all on hold. It's all very frustrating.

We battle on.

Trying to take a breath every now and then.

Things could be worse?

Thanks again.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skycheattraffic*
> .
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this.

I feel so sorry for myself sometimes, it's a little bit pathetic! - but it is genuinely nice to have strangers send virtual hugs, and advice. Thank you.

The insomnia thing is just weird and horrible. It definitely colours everything. But I'm trying to keep my head up...and reserve lots of positivity for the kiddie each day (I hope I'm being the parent to her that I would be if I was well-rested, mostly anyway. My partner gets the brunt of a bad night...but he's supportive too...so life could be much worse) - and I'm trying to have hopeful thoughts about it all for the future. Nothing is forever, right? (unless it's my daughter's weird habits!?)


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## sarafi (Feb 10, 2008)

I skimmed this, baby should be up soon. Insomnia is horrible, so sorry.

Have you had her sit the bear up on her own? If she doesn't want to initially, could you pretend to not know how she wants the bear sat up? Maybe during the daytime so it's not a hot-button issue. If she could do it herself, while in her bedtime element it might not be such a struggle.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> I've tried talking to her during the day about how we will only do it X (3?) times or whatever. She understands this perfectly well when not in bed, and IN bed, even COUNTS with me. I've tried this tactic over and over again, but I still get 'again! again! again!'. Limits be damned!


On those days that you said you'd do it the 3 times and she's saying to do it again, are you doing it again?


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> On those days that you said you'd do it the 3 times and she's saying to do it again, are you doing it again?


Well, yes (as above). But she seemed to be getting the groove of saying: 'This is the LAST time'. And it was - so I was happy enough with that. However, it's gone a bit pear-shaped the last few days....and she (and I) are going back to old/bad ways a little. There is so much going on in our household....it's hard to find the energy to tackle this one thing properly. Though, unfortunately, after saying that she was a pretty well-behaved child, and that we hadn't had to think about discipline much yet - well, of course, she's been going a bit nutso-naughty this last week. Defiantly doing the opposite of all things asked. e.g. 'Please don't drop that food on the floor' - drops food etc. So we've gone from maybe 10mph, to 100mph in terms of testing limits suddenly. Needed that like a hole in the head! But there you go.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

For anyone that was wondering....

I have not solved this problem.

It has not gotten worse - but it remains an explosive little part of my dynamic with my daughter (which is sad, and unhealthy I know).

We tried one night of limiting the behaviour, then left her to it (with head round door for reassurance occasionally) - this was such an unmitigated disaster, that I'm unwilling to do that exact thing again. She cried on and off for two hours - got to sleep very late (heartbroken) and had an awful next day too.

I understand she might need to be sad, and then learn to get over it - we are having some success with that during the daytime battles (video's / books / food) - but the sleep thing.....sigh.....it still seems impossible to solve. If I stay in the room with her for any reason - she simply wants out...she has always been like this. Thus, I just can't stay in there comforting her....besides, that would set up an even worse habit in some ways.

Having said all that - things in the house are generally pretty horrible at the moment. DD is choosing now (well, the last three weeks) to seemingly drop her last nap. I'm filled with actual terror about this...and have been just scrambling with head above water trying to manage compensatory early bedtimes every second night, all the while hoping against hope that it is just a phase. I do my job whilst she is supposedly 'asleep' - and...well...none of this is helping my insomnia one iota.

But - the comments above are all so correct. Whilst we are sometimes more successful setting limits for other things in the daytime...in general - having no boundaries for other things IS making life harder for everyone. (A warning to others who might read - and have more guts than I).

We're getting some very oppositional behaviour at the moment about lots of things (e.g. throwing food at mealtimes). I'm losing my cool more than when I first started this thread.

Am at a loss slightly.

Wish I could update that I tried a few things and something worked. But being silent - or trying to change what has become the status quo in any way....just isn't working for both of us.

How to feel quite useless as a parent. Especially of an increasingly demanding, autonomous, bright, energetic, challenging child.

PS: Though unrelated (well, not entirely) to this current problem. I'm having a bit of stress too about her bottle. She still has a small amount of watered down milk in a bottle four times a day. But not only the bottle, she has to have it sitting on my knee. Not daddy's. And in a certain chair etc.

I've tried really hard to introduce a cup - but she won't have it. Hmm. I should look up old threads on this....we are going to be in for some big trouble I think. Why are they such creatures of STRONG, STRONG habit?

(ETA: She drinks water from cups with all meals - the milk is additional and in between.)


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## BabySmurf (Apr 27, 2011)

It sounds like you just have a child who really needs those rituals to feel secure. If making gentle changes just isn't being received well right now, it might be better to hold off until she is in a place that is more open to it. It can be really hard when we are ready for a change and our kids aren't, but at this point the situation might get worse if you keep pressuring her. And it seems to be causing both of you a lot of stress. So, if it's not working, don't force it.

So I would just try to get back to that status quo. My son is also transitioning away from naps, and dropping this nap has been much less straight forward than when he dropped his others. And it's going to be a while before this transition is over too, I can tell. He naps every couple of days, sometimes he doesn't nap at nap time, but unavoidably passes out in the evening and bedtime is naturally really hard on those nights. When something like this is going on with them, I tend to say "just do what works" until they get into a groove, then try to streamline or make small changes. Another thing that I learned about my son, is that while when he was a baby routines had no bearing on him at all, and no matter *what* I tried we couldn't find something that worked. Now he really needs a routine and he depends pretty heavily on them, and I think that this is a very normal progression. As they become more aware of the world around them the consistency we provide them with is the *only* thing that helps them feel grounded. So trying to change things right now may be making this worse.

In terms of setting boundaries, the best advice I can give is to really try to avoid wording things that will lead to a power struggle. Try using different phrases and being excited about the choices you give her and letting her have some control over things. (I really, really recommend reading over the AhaParenting website - it was so valuable and easy to implement while still being able to parent as "me").

Some examples of easy changes are to never ask a "yes" or "no" question - they are two and a half, the answer is always going to be "no". Try not to ask open ended questions unless you can actually accomodate what they ask for. Try giving a choice of two things (too many more options may be too much) that need to be done and letting them pick. I sometimes have to say that if he doesn't pick, then Mommy has to pick and he hates to give up that control. Sometimes I have to pick and that causes a meltdown. Which means that there is a need that I am not meeting and it's manifesting itself in a power struggle. So I try to identify that need or emotion for him and explain why it hasn't been met, and that we can meet it at X,Y,or Z time. Once I started using that technique of identifying his feeling for him and explaining with empathy why we still can't do X, the melt downs tend to get shorter. He feels more in control of himself because he can understand some of his emotions, and because I have empathy for his feelings, they are validated and I'm not the enemy, the circumstances are.

I would start out by just experimenting with how you phrase things and watching for her reactions. She is going to try to push boundaries, so the other thing is that those boundaries need to be clear and with a particular consequence. (Um, like, DS is allowed to walk in the parking lot without holding my hand so long as he walks on pace with me and doesn't run away. If he runs, I carry him. He hates that. The first few times I implemented it, he did kick and scream a little (handle like I said above - I know you really wanted to do X, but remember that we are in a parking lot and you have to walk with Mommy. It's really frustrating when you really wanted to do X and Mommy says no, but we really need to stay safe in parking lots and that means staying with Mommy). Most of the time he does stay right with me and it's not an issue, but occasionally he can't control the impulse to run at the curb so that he can jump off of it. Knowing his cues I can scoop him up in an instant, and since he knows that the consequence is that he gets carried, he doesn't fight it so much. If he's overtired he does get upset, especially if he feels guilty because he just forgot the rule (which you can tell happens sometimes), and I acknowledge that he's not a bad kid for doing it, but we still need to stay safe.

I'm starting to babble a bit, but it feels really good when you can connect with your child and they actually *listen* to you. No child (or adult) is going to do things 100% all the time, but having a consistent empathetic way to deal with things makes it go a lot smoother. For both of you. It's funny, I said that DS was never much into routines, and he really wasn't, but you know what? That in and of itself turned into an expectation that we get up and lounge around in the mornings and he gets to play trains. I didn't even *realize* that had become our routine until the weather got nicer and I started to want to get out of the house in the mornings. And it's really hard. Because it doesn't fit in with our "usual" leisurely morning. So, when that dawned on me, I realized that I needed to set up a morning routine that will allow us to leave the house at a reasonable hour! Which means getting up and getting dressed right away (which being pregnant over the winter we didn't do much!). Now, instead of it being a battle to get out, it's what he expects. I think it's also easy to look over the "routines" or expectations we have set up for our kids because it's not a big deal for us to change those things, but it is for them. So maybe starting there and trying to see from her perspective what expectations for the day look like, and work on implementing one or two changes at a time until you find your groove. And involve her in the process too - let her choose how some things go.

Hopefully you get something useful out of my musings, lol!! I hope that you are able to find something that works!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BabySmurf*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, this is a fair point.....for instance, both of my kids had a pacifier at bedtime until between 3 and 3-1/2. Starting somewhere right around 3, I'd try gently eliminating it from our routine...but if they weren't ready, I'd go back to it, we'd have gentle convos about how it was OK to need this for now and we'd try again in a little while...and then a month later, try again. The consistent, but gentle nudges were all I did, and within a 6-month timeframe they both gave them up without more than a few tears that I cuddled away....and I'll just say that my daughter is NOT an easygoing kid by any means, so a few tears comforted away from her meant she was absolutely ready on her own.

Soooo, perhaps- set the limit you described a few posts ago, but soften your frame of mind a little on the bedtime thing. Heck, we laid with our kids in their beds until they were nearly 4 until they fell asleep. Some kids just need that connection to transition into dreamland, longer than others.

I have a very strong willed, prone to negativity, daughter (she'll be 7 next month) - so I get where you're coming from, I get how draining it can be to have this little person butting heads with you so early on, so strongly, and so intensely....yet still, on matters like this IMO a gentler firmness always yields better, and more lasting results, than a hard line. I save the hard line for things that are dangerous, rude to others, or destructive.

I keep this age-centric thing in my head where the advice I think about first is that of what my own kids are living right now; and your situation, would just absolutely not fly with my nearly 7 and 9 year olds. lol. But 2-1/2? Is SO LITTLE. Bending the framework, without breaking it, especially with ones so little, can help them through tough things like this.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> Defiantly doing the opposite of all things asked. e.g. 'Please don't drop that food on the floor' - drops food etc. So we've gone from maybe 10mph, to 100mph in terms of testing limits suddenly. Needed that like a hole in the head! But there you go.


I'll also note that, while this seems like minutae, phrasing can often make all the difference in the world. Soooo... instead of:

"Please don't drop that food on the floor" (which she hears "drop that food on the floor", really)

try

"Oh, food stays on the table!" or, "Keep that on the plate please!" and help her do it.

Phrasing things by what you want them TO do often gives much, much better results than what you don't want them doing.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I guess to me the issue is that the kid is learning she can push Mommy's boundaries. If Mommy says "we'll sit the bear up one more time" and then when pressed continues to do it, the kid isn't learning what the guidelines are, she's learning she can push. It's one thing to decide "I'm not going to fight this sitting-bear-up thing" and just go with the flow on it, but another to set a boundary and then change it. Like... be careful what you say "no" to, but when you say no it needs to really be no.

Also I hear a lot of guilt here and the OP beating herself up for even trying to set what are totally reasonable non-abusive boundaries.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

No, I get that - all I'm saying is that gentle reconfiguring of the boundaries may work best with her kiddo, instead of trying to get several things all resolved at once. That's all.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

^^^I agree. I wasn't trying to disagree with your post or mean it to come off like I was.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Oopsies! I'm doing eleventy things at once here, sorry for the misread!!


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Thank you so much for those recent comments. I'm completely new at all this, and won't be doing it again...so am trying my best, to do my best for everyone but very open to learning as I go.

I think there is huge merit in the fundamental idea that I need to decide if it's a real problem for me (or her) or not. I think she is a child who, at the moment, does require these strong rituals. And when I stop and think through our typical day, there are many of them....many. I mean, am I going to start trying to minimise or eliminate them all? Who really has the problem...her or me? Well, considering she is mostly a happy child (a little more stroppy now...but I'm hoping it's just her age) - and does get comfort from all of them. I think, the bedtime thing is more a case of me not being able to 'control' the situation...and therefore losing my cool. The unhealthiness of it seems based in the fact that until I make motions to actually leave, and then raise my voice somewhat - she won't let me go - like that is now a needed part of the ritual. The only way to 'finish' it. She basically curls up with her bum in the air, ready for me to walk to the door...then springs up and yells for me to come back. That is usually when I raise my voice, slightly stomp back, do bear quickly again...say goodnight fast...and escape. Ergh. Sounds horrible. Kind of is.

As soon as I leave, she's usually happy as larry...so voice raising is not upsetting her - but it obviously upsets me each and every bedtime.

I don't have anger issues generally, and am a bit horrified that my fuse is so incredibly short at the moment - but I am under a lot of stress (but that's not her fault)...and find it weirdly hard to count to ten, or do anything useful to express myself more positively, or be more patient. I'm frustrating myself. Daily.

However, last night, I tried being very quiet...and just go with the flow of 'bear'....but again, it went on and on and on, until I ended up raising my voice a little and forcing the end of ritual. Hmm. I do need to decide what to do, either way. For my own sake and for hers. The words 'last time', and 'no more' etc, have lost all meaning to her. Why though, do I find it so difficult to find the right thing to say?? Gah.

She does seem to self-limit somehow if I let things run and run - for example, we do stories before nap time too. What used to be two stories and 15 minutes, has now turned into 4 stories and half an hour (don't know if this is contributing to her not sleeping, probably). If I try and limit to two, there is much fuss and wailing...same at story 3. Story 4, she's always ready to go upstairs quietly.

I suppose the same thing applies with bear - I just do, say: 'time to say goodnight to mummy now' each time, and rinse and repeat, and rinse and repeat....and eventually, SHE sometimes chooses when she's had enough, and actually says goodnight. (But most of the time now, this isn't before the voice-raising business). The issue goes back to me not being able to predict or control it I suppose - and the fear that one day, she'll realise she can do it forever (because I keep letting her, well, doh.)

I will go and have a look at the AhHa site for sure.

Thank you for the points about being positive. It's SO EASY to say things in the negative. I find myself doing it all the time. Just two days ago I thought the answer to two problems was:

1) No yoghurt for pudding if you throw dinner...and

2) I'll take bear away unless....

In my madness...I thought, yes! That's sure to work. But then suddenly realised that this would be MEAN. I don't want to be mean. I want to handle things in a way that don't make her into a 'bad' girl that's being 'punished'. So...for the food, I've decided to:

a) ignore food throwing whilst happening, but then insist she help me clean it up afterwards before she can play...OR

b) help her eat her dinner

Bear? I can't take him away. I'll have to keep thinking....

Also, it strikes me, that in the scheme of things - we do have much bigger things that we should be focussing on. Her dropping her nap is a big scary one (though for the moment, I intend on taking her to her bed daily regardless...am just not ready for alternatives). Another example, we are not very social and the intention was that she would be having a couple of days at preschool at 3 (she is now 2.9 months). But we haven't even managed to get her to the local playgroup, which is the step before actual preschool, and is parent-attended and a lot more casual. There's that, and small things that may be big (I just don't know) like not yet buying her a toilet seat so she can start experimenting with going to the toilet (she has shown a little, but not huge interest).

I just hope we're not doing her a disservice by allowing her to dictate the way our days run (except for meals / bedtimes) to the detriment of having her exposed to other things, and/or not learning how to play and get along with life when we need to do grown-up things.

As I say, never having done this before - you wonder whether you are spoiling them somehow...or disadvantaging them...it's a tricky, tricky job. I admire you Mama's that have been there, done that, survived and lived to share helpful experiences and advice! Hopefully I'll be one of those too one day!

She is extremely bright (I have a feeling I might be posting in gifted threads a little later on, with many questions) - and like yours The4OfUs, she does definately tend towards negativity. She seems to have these brilliant answers for almost everything, and her logic can be several steps ahead of our own, so often she catches us out and we can't think of appropriate responses. But sometimes I feel that she is SO busy talking and using her brain, (and likewise we are always talking, responding, challenging her to think, playing word games...whatever) that her emotions get left behind a little. I think emotionally she is probably acting her age - but then comes out with things I would expect to hear from a five year old. She is also not terribly physical, and it takes a lot to get her moving (and tired!) - she's also going through a phase of extreme frustration over physical tasks at the moment. Giving up, before even beginning.

I try to compensate a little for this by trying to dance...tumble....tickle....cuddle a few times a day - try to give her brain a break. I'm not sure if it works or not.

I'm getting way off topic here now, but I feel I should mention that she is not a very cuddly child (not sure if I mentioned already). Doesn't particularly like to be held when upset, and even as a baby, didn't respond hugely well to rocking or cuddling or kissing. So that is sometimes quite challenging too. One's instinct is to swoop in and cuddle to death, and hold, and try and comfort - but she resists most of this (unless she's hurt herself).

I better stop waffling now.

Thank you all for the further food for thought. I think I either need to accept bedtime bear, and be calm and happy about it - or if I can't...then be prepared to follow through somehow. Since she generally lets me go still within a reasonable amount of time (5-10 mins max) - and I don't have to do other things, like rub her back for hours, sing songs, or sleep in her cot with her!! maybe I should count my blessings and just work on my own emotional temperature and responses to things.

Any tips for that? Keeping my cool when my life is just a big slice of stress-pie at the moment?

G.


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## BabySmurf (Apr 27, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> Thank you all for the further food for thought. I think I either need to accept bedtime bear, and be calm and happy about it - or if I can't...then be prepared to follow through somehow. Since she generally lets me go still within a reasonable amount of time (5-10 mins max) - and I don't have to do other things, like rub her back for hours, sing songs, or sleep in her cot with her!! *maybe I should count my blessings and just work on my own emotional temperature and responses to things.*
> 
> ...


First off, you absolutely can't fight her on all of the rituals and routines - that's very age appropriate and she will grow out of it. If there is one thing in particular you really can't stand, you can try distracting her a bit with something different, but it will probably lead to a new ritual to replace it. I think that remembering that we don't need to micromanage things can make a huge impact on our own psyche as well as theirs. There is no reason why some of our "jobs" can't be turned into play-like adventures. It's a lot more motivating for the kids, and it can relieve some of the pressure we feel to have to have things done a "certain" way. Kids couldn't care less about our schedules and why should they? They have their own agenda and their instincts require them to follow it - and that is right now to learn how to live in and manipulate the world around them, and that very much includes pushing boundaries. (And yes, the more you "give in" to the "last time" not actually being the last time, the more she is going to need to test it. If something really *is* the last time, use that phrase, but if it's not, then try to avoid saying it. Otherwise, like you said, it won't really mean anything.)

Secondly, the bolded part about you being stressed; my son absolutely reflects my stress levels. I think most of the time he "acts out" is actually him just not knowing how to respond to my stress. When he was a baby I really didn't need a lot of "me" time to reduce stress, but as he has transitioned into the "testing boundaries" phase, I need a lot more time to myself. Just to reduce my levels of stress because it is mentally exhausting to have to think like a two year old and negotiate on their level and always be a few steps ahead so that you can avoid problems. If you can find ways to try to reduce your own stress levels about things, I guarantee that you will see at least some improvement in her behavior.

Hopefully you get things figured out!!


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

I have an update for this thread and issue.

I wish the problem had been solved in some gentle way by ME - but it seems my headstrong daughter has taken matters into her own hands. (Perhaps the friction and bad dynamics of it all has gotten to her too?)

Anyway - we had an incident during a daytime nap yesterday. She got a toy with a small loop on it's head (the kind of loop you don't bother cutting off...because it seems to small to be a danger). She got it stuck on her wrist - didn't have her nap because she had a silly tiger stuck to her the whole time. She didn't call out or get upset at all...but instead played with all her cot toys (of which there are a few, but smallish). When I got her up, she asked me to remove them all and put them on a shelf. When questioned carefully, she insisted she didn't want them in her bed anymore.

I left bear in the bed, but she was all: "No. Put bear on the shelf too. I don't cuddle him anymore....I don't want him in bed." (She has two other fave toys at the mo that get the bed cuddles).

To cut a long story short. I asked her what we were going to do at night time. No bear to sit up etc. She replied that we could just do kisses and say goodnight.

Me, ever the cynic - was all ready to reinstate bear at the last moment - but NO - it went as she said it would. First night in MONTHS and MONTHS - just simple cuddles, kisses, and then a nice loving goodnight.

No silly games. No stressed out mummy.

Wow.

Not only this - but one of my other niggles was her having a bottle of milk AFTER she cleans her teeth in the bath. (The best I could ever do was get her to rinse her mouth with some water after the milk). I've been foreshadowing changing this routine for ages. Mentioning it to her daily. Perhaps she got sick of hearing about it, or perhaps she got sick of the water rinsing.

Last night she decided on her own that she would have the bottle downstairs, after dinner, but before her bath - so she could clean her teeth.

No milk for stories, and whilst she automatically reached out for it...she was fine doing it differently.

I don't know what the moral of the story is....maybe, not to panic - as things will change anyway over time?

I'm feeling very grateful at the moment that she has singlehandly eliminated one of the most stressful moments of my day. That stupid bear was killing me. Hopefully I'm not speaking too soon, and all goes well today too.

Thank you sweetheart.

May all your decisions be so timely and wise! (ha! as if!)


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

Love it. I do think the moral is things will always change! AND if you have a child of a certain kind, and you respectfully let them know what you also need and expect... then maybe they will decide when they are ready. And hopefully she will stick with that decision! When my kids have made decisions like that for themselves, they generally do mean it and stick with it. Glad to hear the new turn of events!


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## sarafi (Feb 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> That stupid bear was killing me. Hopefully I'm not speaking too soon, and all goes well today too.


I sooooo hear you, and I am sure my mother did as well. Only one child of mine has a "lovey" and it is for sure a pain. My mother "forgot" my lovey at a play date when I was two, and I am still irked about it (just about the fact that she really did throw away something that I clearly loved) and I remember being mad and hurt about why we couldn't just go and get it for years later--we lived in the same town.

Anyway, I know it was a hard slog. Now your kiddo can grow up and not remember anything about this time, and definitely won't be fixated for life on where their special lovey is. Even if this new pattern only lasts a short bit, you are doing good work with your child.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

My grandparents once threw away something I really loved....have never forgotten that either! Funny creatures...kids.

Bear used to be the toy-of-choice. Now he is rejected. In his place are two toys she recently chose for herself at a toyshop. Both cheaper and nastier than the bear...but, who am I to argue against a fake-fur penguin and a now-very-squashed and grubby caterpillar?

I should add one thing that I remembered after I posted my (her) success.

Which is that the two days prior to the BIG change, I had threatened (I did do it very gently...no shouting or anything) to remove bear from the bed altogether because of the silliness. I said this maybe on about three different bedtimes. It had the instant result of her just wanting him sat up for the last time (and it was) - i.e. curtailing the whole process....then, maybe she thought about it - thought to herself somehow that the whole rigmarole was just not worth the hassle? I will never know her exact thought processes, but we're four days into it now....sailing along all happy at bedtimes (kinda - well, much happier in that regard anyway) it seems the change has stuck. Hurrah!

I also got my first ever spontaneous "I love you mummy" that first night - and this now happens at every bedtime!! Woohoo! Who knew that would take nearly 3 years?

Now all we've got to sort out a little bit is her dropping her daytime naps (have another thread on this) - but am giving up hope a little on this one. Boo hoo.

That, and general behaviour, which has gone very toddlery and out-of-control-defiant of late. So, ha ha, I guess we swapped a nicer bedtime, for all the other annoying things! Damn!


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