# Learning to not be permissive



## Laurapartera (May 16, 2004)

*I'm looking for discussion about no-spank but non-permissive/non-jellyfish parenting.*
I probably have alot in common with many mothers on this board. I had natural childbirths at home, breastfed, co-slept, wore a sling etc. In short I feel this AP approach to baby raising primed me (and my husband because he was following my lead) to become a very permissive parent. We could deal with the consequences of our permissiveness until our 2nd baby came along and dd #1 turned 4yo. She be 5 in a month. At that point I woke up and realized all my friends who had children whose children seemed happy and were pleasant to be around were a very different kind of parent. They had very memorable consequences for their children for their misbehavior-some even spanked (in a controlled way-not a parent having a temper tantrum way). They have GREAT relationships with their teenagers and their teens seem so confident and happy.
Given the fact that I was going crazy with a whining, fussy 4 yo and I would DO ANYTHING to have a relationship with my kids in 10 years like my friends have with their older (and younger) children I asked them all for advice-and got some great insights. The first lesson: your kids will only behave when you expect them to: 100%.
So anyway, in the last year I have come to believe that permissive parents that "reason" with their children are doing the kids a disservice-children are not mini-adults, they NEED their parents to be in charge. This is simply a developmental stage for them. This realization was *devastating* to me, I really wanted to be able to take the no-punishment approach to parenting but I really cannot anymore. In fact since we started consisitently, clearly stating limits and punishing instead of talking so much my dd is SO MUCH HAPPIER!
This year I've spent time reading 123 Magic and John Rosemond-the first is antispanking, the second is not. Both have really helped me. I also really like "KIDS ARE WORTH IT"
Anyway, I struggle with believing that spanking is not right-VIOLENCE IS NOT THE ANSWER!!! I cannot be against this war that my country is waging and hit my child. I don't feel like I have to hit my dd, but I crave conversation about parenting from like-minded folks like you who also may be parenting in an authorative way.
What are you reading? What are your techniques? Is there space for this conversation here?
Thanks,
Laura


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Have you read Anthony Wolf?

His book "The secret of Parenting" is subtitled "How to be in charge of kids today without punishment or threats"

He operates on the parent in charge model, yet he believes that punishment is not a morally sound choice.

He is not AP, but he is GD. I have a feeling that his books might really appeal to you.

He believes in disciplining by expressing your expectations and by noting to the child when they were not met: For example "I asked you to pick up your toys an hour ago. You did not do it. We were having company so I had to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys."

He believes that children need their parents help and assistance to get over big dispointments in life, BUT he also believes that they must learn to get over minor disapointments on their own (by minor he means "potato chips that are too soggy, toys they can't have (when they already have lots and lots etc...)

He believes, as do I, that learning with these minor disapointments that one has the power within ones own body to feel better after being upset is very valuable. I have found this his most powerful piece of advice. Letting our children know that they have the power within themselves to feel happy again is so important.

He is also big on disengaging with a child who is whining or tantruming over these type of things. This is not ignoring but more like "Do you need a hug, if so I'll be right over there folding the laundry."

These methods have made our family life a joy. I am happy to discuss further or answer any questions.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

I am writing a book for you.







In the meantime, a lot of it is on my site (in my sig line).

By way of intro, I am Joanne. I APed my 3 children (and my daycare babies when I was open and accepted infants). I nursed my kids past toddlerhood. I slung, family bedded, snuggled, nurtured and used gentle/positive discipline.

Quote:

This realization was devastating to me, I really wanted to be able to take the no-punishment approach to parenting but I really cannot anymore. In fact since we started consisitently, clearly stating limits and punishing instead of talking so much my dd is SO MUCH HAPPIER!
I have some good news for you. You can have those firm limits and still not punish.

Quote:

This year I've spent time reading 123 Magic and John Rosemond-the first is antispanking, the second is not. Both have really helped me. I also really like "KIDS ARE WORTH IT"
I certainly support you in reading Kids Are Worth It. But my support ends there. Rosemond is adversarial, creepy and cold. He's also deliberately ignorant about AP and positive discipline. Reading Rosemond can lead you directly into a negative frame of mind regarding your kids.

I'm not a fan of Magic 1-2-3, either. The author uses horribly negative terms to describe children, is sarcastic and asssumes a battle of wills. I'm not a fan of time out as discipline; I think it's limited in usefulness and misses the mark.

That said, Magic 1-2-3 is better than permissiveness and that's why things are better for you now than they have been.

Here is a cut and paste from my site:

_Let's be honest, and above all, practical. True, quality discipline combines knowledge of age appropriate behaviors, reasonable standards, clear expectations, proactive discipline and consistency. Anything less is not effective discipline. Let's take out the "extremes". Let's remove the heavily punitive parenting in which parents punish and fail to teach positively. And let's remove the pleading, requesting, passive parenting in which parents never establish or enforce rules of conduct. In the middle is the parent who says "stop that" or "do this" and makes it happen. In the middle is the parent who looks at the toddler on the dining room table and removes them while also thinking "This child likes to climb. How can I make that safely happen?" That middle parent may or may not punish. But that (good) parent takes both a proactive approach and a responsive approach to the discipline challenges they face. That good parent uses a bare minimum of physical punishment, if any, but lots of physical redirection in the younger years. Good parenting looks very similar, even if the parent uses punishment. If a good parent uses punishment, it's not often. It's not daily, or weekly. I'm not condoning punishment. I'm making the practical point that good parenting must include the tools I outline in the pages of this site.

Effective Practical Parenting ideas can be used in a home that also reserves punishment as an option. Indeed, it's my hope and desire that each family use these ideas. As you use them, the seeming need for punishment will diminish.

But I'll be honest and tell you that this approach is best utilized in the absence of punishment. If I haven't convinced you to drop punishment altogether, I encourage you to incorporate these ideas into what you are already doing._

There are 3 Levels to non punitive, firm discipline:

1) A foundation of love, comfort, care and trust
2) A system of proactive discipline strategies that minimize the need for responsive discipline and build a lifestyle of setting the family up for success
3) A tool box full of firm, respectful ideas to use when a discipline situation emerges.

If you post some specifics you are dealing with, we can help you respond to them firmly but without punishment.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't know, Laura.
My son just turned 2, but I do think there's a difference between being permissive and being...well...mean, yk?
I *think* that logical consequences, even "memorable" ones, are still within the GD scope of practice.
Then again, I think logical consequences are akin to punishment.
For example, if my 2 yo throws a toy at me because he's mad about something (like we can't go plat outside coz there's a thunderstorm going on), then I put that toy on a shelf for a little while.
And I've found that when he picks something up to throw it at me, if I say "If you throw that at me, I'm taking it away", he's now starting to rethink throwing it at me, and usually doesn't.
I don't know if that's GD or not.
I don't really see myself parenting in an "authoritative" way, but I do kind of have a "this is just the way it is, and you're just going to have to come to terms with it" sort of style with some things.
And I think you can do that and still be loving and sympathetic to your child's POV.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay*
I don't know, Laura.
My son just turned 2, but I do think there's a difference between being permissive and being...well...mean, yk?
I *think* that logical consequences, even "memorable" ones, are still within the GD scope of practice.
Then again, I think logical consequences are akin to punishment.
For example, if my 2 yo throws a toy at me because he's mad about something (like we can't go plat outside coz there's a thunderstorm going on), then I put that toy on a shelf for a little while.
And I've found that when he picks something up to throw it at me, if I say "If you throw that at me, I'm taking it away", he's now starting to rethink throwing it at me, and usually doesn't.
I don't know if that's GD or not.


I call this "removing the means of misbehavior" and I have no problem with it. If my child then comes to me a minute later and says "Can I have my toy, I won't throw it anymore." I say "sure"

I am not trying to "punish" them, but I will do things to keep them from hurting the person or property of another or themselves.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laurapartera*
I probably have alot in common with many mothers on this board. I had natural childbirths at home, breastfed, co-slept, wore a sling etc. In short I feel this AP approach to baby raising primed me (and my husband because he was following my lead) to become a very permissive parent.

Welcome to MDC!

I just want to disagree with you a little.

First, I am an AP mama, and like you * I was * very permissive (jellyfish). It is easy to blame AP on this. But it's not AP's fault. Truly. My other AP friends are not permissive. I was the only one!!! APing doesn't mean you are permissive (necessarily). I happened to fall into that trap because * I * was raised by a very authoritative (physically/verbally abusive) mother and I went the other extreme (not having any real guide for myself on what a "good" parent was. That's pretty common with permissive parents (they go the other extreme.)

Like you, my wake up call was after baby # 2 came along and I was shocked at my son's behavior.







That's when I woke up, did a lot of soul searching, read some books, etc...

BTW, I too strive to having a relationship with my children that my







SIL & BIL have with their 14 year old son. He is SUCH a good kid. You know how they treat him? With love and respect. No yelling, no shaming, no time outs, no punishments... they pretty much used GD with him.

I think this book resembles their parenting style (democratic):
P.E.T. Parent Effectiveness Training: The Proven Program for Raising Responsible Children

Here is part of an e-mail I sent to friends recently:

Quote:

I really encourage you to read the P.E.T. book (by Thomas Gordon). It really opened my eyes to how I was acting that was causing him to be very resentful. It's all about GD (gentle discipline). It encourages parents to work with kids (rather than use authority all the time). Kids end up hating their parents when they rely on authority (my way or the highway) all the time.

Here is an example. Yesterday he wanted to open a box that was delivered. I was just too tired to deal with it and wanted to do it tomorrow. He was insistant. I firmly said no, later. I could see he was seething. "Wow, you really look angry. You really wanted to open that box right now." (That was my attempt to empathize with him, like the books say, but that wasn't enough.) Right then I realized I was railroading him ALL THE TIME and he was so pissed. I was indeed telling him what to do all the time (in my determination NOT to be a permissive parent anymore). So I said, "OK we have problem, let's see what solutions we can come up with." I wrote the possible solutions down. (That tip came directly from the PET book.) He got all excited and happy. 1. open right now 2. I open it and you just look, don't touch (he came up with that). 3. open it tomorrow, etc...

I agreed on opening it right there and we talked about what it was and he was much happier.

Problem solved.








I heard Aletha Solter speak about Discipline without Punishments or Rewards a few months back.
http://www.awareparenting.com/articles.htm
She explained that that relying on punishments or "consequences" (not natural ones, natural ones are fine) lead to children hating/resenting their parents. It leads to more conflicts between parent & child. Child feels the need to rebel. I don't want that. (And rewards aren't so great because they make the child feel manipulated.)

She recommended the P.E.T. book and *PLAYFUL PARENTING* by Lawrence Cohen. Read the first, amazing Amazon review of Playful Parenting. It's all true.

I really like Kid Cooperation: How to Stop Yelling, Nagging and Pleading and Get Kids to Cooperate by Elizabeth Pantley. She's the mother of 4 children and very AP, but she is also very firm, which is something I really needed because I was very permissive and didn't know how to stop being permissive. Her book had great, simple examples of how to speak to a child with AUTHORITY and confidence (something I really needed.) So that helped me, since that was my hard spot. I skimmed it... Some of her dialogue/attitude sounded TOO strict to me, so I don't think her whole seemingly, very firm tact would have worked. But some of the dialogue did help my wishy-washy self.

Becky Bailey's Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline : The 7 Basic Skills for Turning Conflict into Cooperation is really wonderful!!!

Edited to add:

P.S. Two other







books I'm reading right now that are GREAT are:

*Hold On To Your Kids* by Gordon Neufeld
http://www.gordonneufeld.com/book.html
(Finally, making it clear to me what AP looks like past the baby stage.







)

and

*Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Punishments and Rewards to Love and Reason* by







Alfie Kohn. Wow, he's got a new







website and DVD!!! I'm going to order it.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/index.html


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
Rosemond is adversarial, creepy and cold. He's also deliberately ignorant about AP and positive discipline. Reading Rosemond can lead you directly into a negative frame of mind regarding your kids.

I have to agree with this. Maybe you were feeling confused, but this guy is WAAAY to far to the other side for my taste.

I read The Secret of Parenting after reading a post by Maya44 about it and consequently changed my whole view on punishment. I love what he says about punishment, about teaching our kids self-reliance, about offering support and love but ultimately allowing them to learn things on their own. His practical ideas, however, do not work that well in my family, but maybe they would work with a 5 year old. I just needed more in my toolbox than what he offered. Disengaging works great with an argument, or with whining, but I have yet to get my dd to do something, anything, by waiting it out, as he suggests. I think she's too young, I don't know, I gave up on that.

I've been trying to think not about how I want my kid to behave, but how I want my kid to be. I want her to be polite. I want her to be helpful. I want her to be gentle. I want her to BE those things, not just act like she is for a reward or for avoidance of a punishment. Does punishment help a child internalize the value you want them to embrace? I think it just distracts them from it.

Here's my two cents, but I have never felt that I was too permissive, if anything I worry about being to strict.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I read The Secret of Parenting after reading a post by Maya44 about it and consequently changed my whole view on punishment. I love what he says about punishment, about teaching our kids self-reliance, about offering support and love but ultimately allowing them to learn things on their own. His practical ideas, however, do not work that well in my family, but maybe they would work with a 5 year old.

Wolf really does not think they will work for a child as young as yours either. Most of his "how to get them to do things" are directed at children who are closer to three or four then two.

His waiting it out is defintiely meant for older kids, with little one's you have to physically help them (gently) do things and accpet that sometimes they won't want to.


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## Girl Named Sandoz (Jul 16, 2002)

I also recommened the Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff. Amazing book.

www.continuum-concept.org

My son is 3 and we use positive discipline (no punishment, no rewards, NO hitting). He is a pleasure to be around. Just the other day a shop worker commented 'he is so sweet and lovely, you must be so proud of him'.









I'm an AP parent (co-sleeping, natural weaning, slinging etc.). I DO NOT believe that AP necessarily leads to permissive parenting.

I am NOT a permissive parent. The Continuum Concept talks at great length about not being child centred. The child-centred vs. not child centred concept may seem contrary to AP at first, but the way she approaches it, it really isn't (IMO). On the contrary, I found her ideas to be a radical extension of AP in most areas. TCC takes children very seriously and gives them a lot of credit as reasonable, intelligent beings (i.e. the tribe she was with let 18 month old children handle very sharp knives because they trusted them implicitly -- no child ever hurt themselves!).

Her point about not being child centred stems for the insight that children look up to adults as role models. They like to learn from adults by participating in the world of adults. They also get a deep feeling of security from an adult who they sense is in control. Looking to our children to make decisions for us confuses them because they are biologically/ psychologically wired to look to adults for guidance and example. Adults who are child centred in the Liedloff sense of the term cause children to experience deep feelings of disorientation and insecurity. By taking away their expeirence as children and effectively turning them into adults (who WE look to for guidance, entertainment etc.) before they've had a chance to be children [and learn through experience] they are 'short-circuited' into the world of adults before they are ready. Children often express their unease and frustration at this treatment in fits of rage, 'difficult' defiant behaviour, regression etc.

She explains this a lot more eloquently and with many practical examples in TCC.

It's definitely worth a read. It led to a significant shift in perspective for me when I read it. The book also works very well in conjunction with (the research-based) Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. You don't NEED punishments, rewards, 'consequences' (which really are just punishments). Even if they may seem to work on the outside, they have a detrimental psychological effect. Ds has so far responded really well to being raised according to TCC principles (as much as I've been able to implement them).


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## nepresser (Oct 10, 2005)

Wow!! thank you everyone who posted. I too am struggling w/ the behavior of my 4.5 ds. Especially since we have just moved in w/ my MIL and her ways and my ways of treating my son/disciplining are sooooo contrary. I am still at a place where I don't know what to do -- but your recommendations and just knowing that I'm not alone out there has been really helpful. I would love to vent, vent vent more -- but perhaps this isn't the forum for that. Thanks.
Nancy


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laurapartera*
So anyway, in the last year I have come to believe that permissive parents that "reason" with their children are doing the kids a disservice-children are not mini-adults, they NEED their parents to be in charge. This is simply a developmental stage for them. This realization was *devastating to me, I really wanted to be able to take the no-punishment approach to parenting but I really cannot anymore. In fact since we started consisitently, clearly stating limits and punishing instead of talking so much my dd is SO MUCH HAPPIER!
*
*
*
*
I definately can believe that your dd is happier having limits and consistancy, but I doubt punishments are making her happier.
I strongly believe that having limits and expectations are critical for happy healthy children. I also strongly believe you can do that without punishment( actually, I know- I'm doing it). It is not one or the other. BUT I also think that being able to do so takes commitment and consistancy and is a lot of work. It's easy to be authoritative, and dole out punishments- but how is that "good" for the child? What do they learn? What do they gain and as human being?*


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I can relate to how the OP feels. I don't think AP necessarily leads to permissive parenting, but I think it *can* if a parent already has a permissive personality. I am NOT by nature a very authorative person, and my general nature is defintiely more permissive and jellyfish. So, I have fallen into the jellyfish/permissive trap. A year ago, I was defintiely a jellyfish and it wasn't working for our family. I read a ton of books, like P.E.T., Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline, How to talk....., Punished by Rewardsetc., etc., I have had to work hard at being authorative without punishing, and it is a learning curve..but we are getting better at it. I had to learn to set limits and enforce them (without punishing, and in a gentle way...but still enforce them--usually using physical direction or redirection. Life is much better when we have limits and enforce them, but still in a non-punitive way.

I really like what HappyHSer wrote...I am going to go check out her website now. She basically wrote all the things I have learned and try to work hard to implement.


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## Englishmummy (Sep 30, 2005)

:
Thanks everyone for this thread. It has made me think a lot...am I a permissive parent? Or more to the point, will I be? Thanks for the book recommendations.








I shall get The Continuum Concept asap.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

this is a GREAT thread!!! I have added so many more books to my cart at Amazon. LOL.

I am not a permissive parent - I am an AP parent and a GD parent who sometimes slips.








Quote:

your kids will only behave when you expect them to: 100%.
I agree with this 100%. My daughter KNOWS what is appropriate behavior and what is not. We do this without punishments, but there are consequences for negative actions, such as a toy being taken as mentioned above. As someone said above, they want their child to BE the things - want them ingrained - not just when the parent is around. This is exactly what I want for my DD - I am sure it's what we ALL want. Granted I fail miserably at times by yelling at her and I have spanked her a time or two - once she hit me back!







I immediately apologized for hitting her and told her now I knew how she felt to be hit and it was not nice. I grew up in a house of punishments and never learned the natural consequences for my actions - we all were wild and rebelled when my mom wasn't looking. I DO NOT want my DD to do this! I did so many stupid and scary things...had NO respect for authority or adults.

I believe that kids DO need limits and they do need to know their parents are in "control" for lack of a better word. It makes them feel safe and loved. I also believe that your children will treat themselves and the world as they are treated by their parents - afterall, the people who love you are the greatest mirrors in which you view yourself and the world around you.

There are not two extremes - permissive or punishing. There is a middle ground - a balance - and it can be found. Sometimes it feels like a tightwire I am balancing on and sometimes I fall, but I get back up there because I know it works.


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## Laurapartera (May 16, 2004)

Wow, thanks for all this discussion. I've read several of the recommended books, and will look into some of the others.

I just wanted to clarify that I don't think being AP leads to being permissive. I have other issues that lead me to that difficulty-my mother grew up with an abusive father and a mental ill and totally unconsistant mother-she then was very permissive with me and my brother. This was balanced to some extent by my father who is a great parent-but wasn't the one with us all day. Growing up I was an very "good" child who almost always tried to make my mom happy and did what was expected of me-I was racked with guilt about my mother's unhappiness for my entire childhood.
She and my stepfather raised my sister (14 years younger than me) in an extremely permissive manner, my sister was a terror and completely in charge of their house. Today she's a teenager who waffles between feeling guilty all the time and continuing to boss my mother around.
When I had children I really had internalized my mother's fear of being firm with children-to this day if we are firm with an expectation for my daughters in front of her-her anxiety is palpable.
I think the last year I think I've been swinging around exploring a new path for me-different from my mother's path.
About John Rosemond: His book was given to me at an important time. I immediately *disagreed* with his condescending attitude toward children, his neutrality regarding breastfeeding, his ban on co-sleeping and his pro-spannking stance. What I did get from his info is some good basic parenting advice I could have gathered from Dr. Sears "Discipline Book" but somehow I wasn't able to "hear it" from Sears.
Insights I gained: I'm the parent and in charge, children need routine, I can disingage from a tantrum (and not give into them), I don't need to feel guilty for having my own needs, children don't need alot of toys-just a few traditional ones that require creativity, TV is bad for children (this has not been a big problem for us, our girls can watch 1 video a day and many days they just forget). I need to mean what I say and follow through with that. He also has really good advice regarding 1 and 2 year olds-he advocates good childproofing so children are free to roam, acknowledges that children of this age cannot comprehend consequences so you simply need to stop their behavior and start something new. I wish I had done that when my daughter was that age instead of trying to "make her happy" which actually made her resentful and confused. So, definately not the author I would follow to the letter but rather a balancing influence during my time of exploration.
Keep talking.
Laura


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Englishmummy*
It has made me think a lot...am I a permissive parent? Or more to the point, will I be?

I like this, it's very helpful to read and might help answer your question Englishmummy:

Diana Baumrind's Theory of Parenting Styles: Original Descriptions of the Styles (1967)

The 4th style (Democratic) is not listed, but







Aletha Solter described it in her talk. She's got a great website with articles if anyone is interested:
http://www.awareparenting.com/

Here is a great article about what Liedloff means by being "child-centered."

Who's In Control? The Unhappy Consequences of Being Child-Centered

















TCC is a great book and should be read by everyone. I read it in my son's first year. It really helped me "chuck" the stroller (instead of being continually frustrated why he wouldn't just relax in it sometimes.) I went stroller-free for the first 20? months. Pretty dang good.









The problem * I * have is that it's hard for me * not * to be child-centered. Really hard. I have a friend who used TCC from the beginning and I think she is THE BEST mother I have ever seen. I really admire







her. She doesn't read ANY parenting books. All the stuff GD teaches, that you are supposed to do, come naturally to







her. Her children are wonderful and pretty normal. I just talked myself out of living that way because DH wasn't on board. I guess I could have done better, but gave up waaaay too early.







There is my confession of the day.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Great Thread!
I also like Anthony Wolf's book. I think it is a good start on how to be GD and still expect your kids to behave.
I am AP, GD and I am not permissive.
I do think that people who are predisposed to be permissive are more likely to also be AP. But that doesnt mean AP causes permissiveness.
I have however heard the argument from permissive parents that the way they treat their children when it comes to discipline is a logical extension of AP but I heartily disagree.

I agree that children need structure and external guidance to feel safe and happy.
I am not 100% anti punishment. (but then I dont define punishment like Wolf who claims to be anti punishment but does suggest logical consequences. WHich to me are punishments LOL)
I am all for logical consequences (meaning related DIRECTLY to the issue, (removing the means of misbehavior LOL).
I think spanking , like permissiveness is a tool for a lazy parent.
IT solves nothing, it teaches nothing. But it gets the parent off the hook by making them feel like they are doing something.

I'm in your club. You CAN be AP and GD and still teach your children how to behave.

Joline


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Laura, I am new to this board too. And I certainly do not want an authoritarian relationship with other people. Nor an authoritative dynamic. Nor a permissive one. My goal is to live with other people with consent, voluntary agreement. Where no individual or individuals in a relationship are entitled to obedience or submission to another. One of *mutual* dignity and respect.

My 1972 Webster's dictionary defines

authoriative: 1. having or proceeding from authority; entitled to obedience, credit or acceptance. 2. dictatorial, permemptory

authoritarian: 1. relating to or favoring blind submission to authority. 2. relating to or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite.

permissive: 1. granted on sufferance: tolerated. 2. granting or tending to grant permission: tolerant. 3. allowing discretion: optional.

consensual: 1. existing or made my mutual consent. 2. correlative with voluntary action or movement 3. in agreement as to action or opinion

This is how I desire to relate with other people, regardless of race, age, nationality, sex, (dis)ability, religion, etc. This is how I desire other people to relate with me. Therefore, this is how we choose to relate and model interacting in our family relationships. How could it follow that our son perceive himself unhappy or unhealthy, when his needs, opinions, desires are considered _whenever_ decisions affecting him require and receive *his consent*? How could it follow that he won't have the tools of living in consent with others as he develops and matures when he has always lived and practiced consensual decision making? He has them now. He is only four. What opportunity is lost for those who don't have 18 years of practice negotiating for having their needs met and opportunites for setting boundaries for himself? *How would a child subjected to authoritative relationships begin to learn how to relate with consent, having observed a parent's belief in entitlement to obedience or experienced submission to others?*

This whole power matrix does not have to exist in order for families to live happily and healthfully together. Authoritative parenting is merely a constuct of authoritative relationships. Living by mutually agreeable solutions requires more than blind obedience, more than submission to an authoritative power. It requires mutual respect for other's different but equally valid pov, even children's regarding that which affects them. And learning to utilize the negotiation tools of consensus, rather than the power of force, depends upon honoring other's consent or refusal about the autonomy of their own body. Living consensually does not require one to be the authority over another person.

Pat


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

This is really such a great thread. Though my dh thinks I'm permissive w/ ds I really don't think I am. I really think children need guidance in the decisions you allow them to make for them selves, gentle guidance of course. And they also need you to make many decisions for them, and to have you set limits for them as well. You are helping them to know their place in the world and sometimes conflicts arise where as the parent I feel the need to be firm.
For me punishment is not a necessary part of this (ds is only 2) and hopefully we can work out something where it never is.
I agree with many posters that it is comforting to the child that you are "in charge", but I also see the importance for a child to always be listened to and respected. Some children definately seem to need more guidance than others, more discipline if you will.
I think to give your children firm and basic expectations of behaviour and to let them know what is expected (gently and respectfully) is to free them from the burden of not knowing.
Acheiving this ofcorse is so much harder. As ds gets older I now face daily tests of my patience and ability to hold on to some sort of "good discipline" approach.
I think I'll definately be checking out some of these
books.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Consensual Is permissive defined in a way that doesnt imply that parents have a position of authority over their children.
But it works the same. The child gets full say over what they do and do not do.
I believe children ought to have choices and ought to have lots of practice making good decisoins. And this will fully prepare them to make all of their own decisions as they grow and gain maturity and become adults and take on more and more and more of their decisionmaking and power.
To just expect children to have this ability and power from birth is not something I can accept as good or beneficial. In my particular view in fact it seems to give the child too much power, and I also believe children look to their parents for guidance. If you tell you rchild "I will not guide you. You must guide yourself in order to learn how to make decisions" I believe that would lead to a great deal of insecurity and anxiety. THat is not a way I would ever treat my children.
I believe that there is a natural power arrangement based on age in humankind. I also believe that children come into this world expecting certain things of their parents and unprepared to navigate in this world.
I believe it is my responsibility as a parent to educate my children and aid them in their way through life so that they gradually take full control later. I believe this makes children feel secure. I also believe it fully prepares them for adulthood.
That said, I think that just as children expect certain things from their parents, Children pick their parents. So it is likely that there are children who have chosen parents who parent differently because this is what they need and expect for themselves. Just as my children chose me because I offer them a different type of guidance.
If a parent wants to live with their child as a peer rather than in a traditional parent/child dynamic that is their choice, and good luck to them.
For me and my children that is not a path I would choose to follow, nor do I think it is a necessary offshoot of AP and of respecting my children as fully human with legitimate needs.

Joline


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

oops.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

scubamama

Laura, I am new to this board too. And I certainly do not want an authoritarian relationship with other people. Nor an authoritative dynamic. Nor a permissive one. My goal is to live with other people with consent, voluntary agreement. Where no individual or individuals in a relationship are entitled to obedience or submission to another. One of mutual dignity and respect.

My 1972 Webster's dictionary defines

authoriative: 1. having or proceeding from authority; entitled to obedience, credit or acceptance. 2. dictatorial, permemptory

authoritarian: 1. relating to or favoring blind submission to authority. 2. relating to or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite.

permissive: 1. granted on sufferance: tolerated. 2. granting or tending to grant permission: tolerant. 3. allowing discretion: optional.

consensual: 1. existing or made my mutual consent. 2. correlative with voluntary action or movement 3. in agreement as to action or opinion

This is how I desire to relate with other people, regardless of race, age, nationality, sex, (dis)ability, religion, etc. This is how I desire other people to relate with me. Therefore, this is how we choose to relate and model interacting in our family relationships. How could it follow that our son perceive himself unhappy or unhealthy, when his needs, opinions, desires are considered whenever decisions affecting him require and receive his consent? How could it follow that he won't have the tools of living in consent with others as he develops and matures when he has always lived and practiced consensual decision making? He has them now. He is only four. What opportunity is lost for those who don't have 18 years of practice negotiating for having their needs met and opportunites for setting boundaries for himself? How would a child subjected to authoritative relationships begin to learn how to relate with consent, having observed a parent's belief in entitlement to obedience or experienced submission to others?

This whole power matrix does not have to exist in order for families to live happily and healthfully together. Authoritative parenting is merely a constuct of authoritative relationships. Living by mutually agreeable solutions requires more than blind obedience, more than submission to an authoritative power. It requires mutual respect for other's different but equally valid pov, even children's regarding that which affects them. And learning to utilize the negotiation tools of consensus, rather than the power of force, depends upon honoring other's consent or refusal about the autonomy of their own body. Living consensually does not require one to be the authority over another person.
I completely agree with this post! Unlike some of the people who see this post as permissive, or treating the parent/child relationship like a peer relationship, I see it as common sense. After all, we are really raising our children to leave us, aren't we? We are raising them with the mindset that hopefully they will be whole, happy, secure people will minds of their own and a healthy understanding of how healthy relationships should be...

Of course I would never say to my child, "Okay, you make all the decisions." That is ridiculous. Firstly, in a consentual relationship, no one makes all or none of the decisions. Secondly, if you look at raising a child the way you would look at someone studying Buddhism under a monk, it makes perfect sense that the parent would be more of a guiding presence, a presence of safety, a presence of wisdom...the parent has lived longer, has experienced more, has a greater understanding of how the world works and how people work. Just as the monk would not control the student, but rather, respectfully guide, teach, and lead by example, so does the parent of a consentual relationship.

It is not as if you ignore your three year old and tell them to do whatever they want and fend for themselves because you want them to "learn to make decisions"... but rather, you lead by example in your own behaviors, mannerisms, tone of voice, etc... you have your chilren be an intricate part of the decision making process as it relates to _their_ life. I would not look to my three year old for what I should wear to a party, but I would most certainly allow them the choice of what they wanted to wear...I would not be comfortable with my 5 year old spooning what she thought I should eat on my plate, so why should I force certain food on her? Things of that nature... I don't feel that is permissive at all, but rather, empowering to the child to let them know you trust them with issues regarding themselves-- to make their own choices, but still give them the security of knowing that you are right there to help them, to guide them, to love them, to keep them safe...

It is not my goal to have someone that I am "in charge" of. It is not my goal for that same person to "know who's in charge"... I would like a relationship with my daughter where she knows that I am not only legally, but morally and happily responsible for her safety, well-being, needs (food, shelter etc), and that in all other things, she will have as much as, or as little as, an opinion in her fate as she likes (within reality, no you can't light your hair on fire to see what happens) as it relates to what she wears, what she eats, where she goes, who she interacts with, how her hair looks, whatever...while at the same time knowing that I am always here to guide her, teach her, love her, and support her...

I dunno, maybe I am naive, but I don't see a relationship based on mutual respect turning into your teenager shooting up in alleys when they are 14... I just don't. It has been my experience with almost everyone I have ever met in my life, from young to old, that if you treat someone with respect and kindness, you most often recieve that in return.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laurapartera*
About John Rosemond: His book was given to me at an important time. I immediately *disagreed* with his condescending attitude toward children, his neutrality regarding breastfeeding, his ban on co-sleeping and his pro-spannking stance. What I did get from his info is some good basic parenting advice I could have gathered from Dr. Sears "Discipline Book" but somehow I wasn't able to "hear it" from Sears.

OK, sorry I jumped your case about him. I've never read his books, just read his column in the newspaper and it makes my blood boil.

This is an interesting thread, I was just checking out the Continuum Concept website. Though I have to say I was a little turned off by the article about the South American Indian tribe. I think it's easy to romanticize other cultures as utopian and reject ours as inherently unhealthy, but I just don't think that's true. But that's probably OT. And I should probably keep my mouth shut until I read the book.

Maya44, I know Wolf thinks she's too little, I need to remember that.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

This is an interesting thread, I was just checking out the Continuum Concept website. Though I have to say I was a little turned off by the article about the South American Indian tribe. I think it's easy to romanticize other cultures as utopian and reject ours as inherently unhealthy, but I just don't think that's true. But that's probably OT. And I should probably keep my mouth shut until I read the book.
FWIW, I found the Continuum Concept a good read. It was limited in usefullness and defnately limited in applicableness to our culture. The most useful stuff I found (I had already "believed in" the AP stuff when I read TCC) was in the child centeredness.

There has been considerable criticism of her research.

I also want to make clear the fact that I do not think that AP is inherently permissive *at all*. I think APing an infant into toddlerhood is the organic design for babies. I APed my own chldren and the infants in my daycare. Indeed, I stopped accepting infants because I was unable to offer the care I believe they need and deserve.

However, AP is a place for permissiveness to show up. So, if a parent is prone to permissiveness, it will show up in the family bed, the grocery store, nursing, food, and gentle discipline. The AP tools, when coupled with permissiveness, can create dynamics that are miserable for everyone. I've also observed a higher percentage of permissive parents in AP/LLL type communties.

I wrote about it a few years ago:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/realizat...ent_parent.htm


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I really do not like attaching labels (such as permissive) to people, or to myself. I do not like books that start off attaching a label to parents, guiltying them as it were into reading the part where they magically supply the solution to all your woes. I also do not like worshipping other parents, or authors, or anyone for that matter. Or, to contradict myself, I do worship myself, and all other human beings as human beings and not for being the perfect parent, or the perfect kid. Is there any such thing as the perfect parent? We are all humans...
Anyway, to judge a parent as being permissive on the basis of the behaviour of a young kid who has just become the big bro or big sister of a young baby, that's pure nonsense. Those months will be chaotic, and I do not think that the right answer to that chaos is being authoritarian. It will be listening to the older child, showing love to him in a number of ways, reaching out to him, and at the same time, building expectations on his behaviour, expectations that he will not always meet but which will be there to guide him through those first difficult months.
But more importantly, how is permissiveness defined? Some parent's behaviours are permissive. Like, giving in to a child every whim to buy toys/candy is not a good idea. But then, giving in to a child's every request for love and affection, that's different, and it's not being permissive. Other people then seem to think, if a child obeys the parents orders, you are a successful parent. If he does not, you are permissive. Why is that? Why should struggling to find compromise solutions that make sense for both parent and child be called being permissive? How about finding creative solutions, that make chores fund and playful? The other day I was hopping to the car with my 4,5yo and my 3 yo and an older gentleman stopped me to say "Stop behaving like a kid. You are the mom, you are in charge now". I could not find the right words to answer, besides, I was busy but ....


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

I think a lot of times, Positive or Gentle Discipline is viewed as being permissive. Some people believe if a parent doesn't believe in spanking or even time outs etc, that the parents are jelly fish. And that is not true at all, IMHO.









I don't believe in punishment, spanking or even time outs. However, that does not mean my children, (especially my DD who is 3), don't have firm boundaries and guidelines to follow. My DD especially, knows there are are expectations of her depending on the situation, but DH and I make sure those expectations are reasonable based on the age of our child. For example, we're not going to take the kids shopping when it is 4pm and they are tired and hungry, because we know it is a disaster waiting to happen.

So we try and be proactive and sensitive to their needs and avoid situations that might send them over the edge and require some form of firm guidance etc from us. When I do take them shopping for groceries etc, I tell them before hand what is expected of them and things are fine, mainly because I think they are prepared before hand on what is going to happen next. Well, my DD anyways, I don't think my little guy who is 1 yo, quite gets what I am saying yet









I agree with HappyHSer, she sums it up perfectly!

Quote:

There are 3 Levels to non punitive, firm discipline:

1) A foundation of love, comfort, care and trust
2) A system of proactive discipline strategies that minimize the need for responsive discipline and build a lifestyle of setting the family up for success
3) A tool box full of firm, respectful ideas to use when a discipline situation emerges.


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## Laurapartera (May 16, 2004)

HappyHSer: In reading your blog and parenting site I'm pretty excited to learn more. It sounds like you have walked the walk that I have begun and have come to some great conclusions.

I have to tell you that not being permissive is extremely non-intuitive for me, my aforementioned friends with good boundaries and great kids all simply parent that way because it's natural for them. In the beginning of trying to actually discipline my child I had to fight every impulse in my being to be permissive. I still struggle with having ideas about how to express boundaries and follow through with enforcing them. I like the 1-2-3 Magic technique not because it's "the best" or somehow unique, it's just very simple. I always know "what to do." Anyway, I'll be exploring more. Time outs are no longer very effective.

Also, in the Rosemond vein: He is very conservative and punative. I was just throwing out some books that I had read. His book was given to me by a good friend who is politically, socially and religiously very different from me, she also likes James Dobson (yuck). I find much of Rosemond's writing offensive as well. His book was the first place I found a person writing of their journey from permissive, make-the-kids-happy-all-the-time parenting to disiciplining their children consistently. I knew when I read it there were others out there who must have made the change, improved their relationship with their children but were more of my mindset-that's why I started this thread.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I like the 1-2-3 Magic technique not because it's "the best" or somehow unique, it's just very simple. I always know "what to do." Anyway, I'll be exploring more. Time outs are no longer very effective.
Hi! I have actually recommended Magic 1-2-3 to moms transitioning from permissive to positive parenting. Not the book, because I find the author adverarial. But the method. It is simple and it's firm and it's (on a scale of things) not horribly punitive.

What you are discovering, though, is true. There is so many more options that are better.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a link from Jan Hunt's "The Natural Child Project" about using the threat of "One, Two...."

"One, Two..." Teaching Through Love Instead of Fear - The Natural ...While counting may appear to be a magic form of discipline, there is no magic in threats. Children know that adults are bigger and more powerful than they ...
www.naturalchild.com/guest/pam_leo2.html - Similar pages

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a link to "Parenting from the Heart" with *connection* and 'power with', rather than 'power over' through the use of *coercion.*

http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/inbal_kashtan.html

Pat


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## Laurapartera (May 16, 2004)

Thanks for the above links. I've been to this site before a few years ago, it's better now. I linked around to an interview with Alice ****** (I've never read her books) about abuse suffered in early childhood and it's lifelong effects. Good reminder about why I don't want to spank and be punitive.
Maybe I can find another balance but the super-sensitive, non-punishing parenting just doesn't work by itself for me and my daugther.

_Controlled By Drama: A realization I came to a few months ago as consistancy and consequences were becoming a reality in our house._ I was studying Buddhism with my husband and really working on not getting hooked into my initial emotional response and repeating my typical dramatic path (I'm no more or less 'dramatic' than your normal woman). I realized that in giving my daughter neutral feedback and helping her control her outbursts I was actually minimizing drama in her life. I simply will acknowledge her feelings but not accept obnoxious behavior. If I try to talk about her emotions in depth rather than address her behavior she begins to sucked into the drama more and more. She's very unhappy when I don't help her contain and control herself, I think it's good practice. We're not denying here, just not going on and on.

I find it very difficult to express myself in writing. Tell if the above thought makes sense-I know many will disagree, but can you follow my train of thought?

Laura


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Oh I entirely agree.
There is a very fine line between validating feelings and encouraging overdramatic displays of feelings.
I am all about. "I can see you are upset (angry, sad, etc. . .) about that. I am sorry but that is something that cannot be changed. It is time to move on."
WIth my kids we work on breathing deeply to bring them out of meltdowns, as well as visualizing and thinking about things that make you feel happy.
This works amazingly well for my 3 year old.
My children have the right to be upset and feel their emotions genuinely. But I think it is important to get it out and move on, not wallow in it and roll around in your despair. I think by really overdoing the sympathy we give the message that "this must be really really bad, look at all the love and sympathy I am getting"
Joline


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## Laurapartera (May 16, 2004)

Johub-I like you.
Thanks for the reminder about deep breathing. That is also really effective with my dd. It's great because whenever dh and I get snippy or stressed she's say "Guys, take a deep breath and settle down."







That way I know that however we're acting is stressing her and she even has a suggestion for dealing with it. It usually diffuses us quickly!


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Controlled By Drama: A realization I came to a few months ago as consistancy and consequences were becoming a reality in our house. I was studying Buddhism with my husband and really working on not getting hooked into my initial emotional response and repeating my typical dramatic path (I'm no more or less 'dramatic' than your normal woman). I realized that in giving my daughter neutral feedback and helping her control her outbursts I was actually minimizing drama in her life. I simply will acknowledge her feelings but not accept obnoxious behavior. If I try to talk about her emotions in depth rather than address her behavior she begins to sucked into the drama more and more. She's very unhappy when I don't help her contain and control herself, I think it's good practice. We're not denying here, just not going on and on.
I completely agree. My children feel secure and comforted when I not only help them label and process their emotion, but when I help them contain their expression of it.

I went into parenting thinking I would not ever intend to mitigate my child's feelings. I assumed that managing emotion for my child was also repressing it. I've discovered their is a balance. My kids need to know they can be angry. And they need to know that I have a limit on how that anger is expressed.

In my house, there is an expression that "You feel how you feel. You can not insist I feel it with you." We also have "You can have your feelings. You can't hold me hostage with them."

Disengage is a good term for it. And telling my child "Yes. You are angry. But you can't stop there. You need to move on" is often followed with a visible relief.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I think by really overdoing the sympathy we give the message that "this must be really really bad, look at all the love and sympathy I am getting"

Oh I like this point! I've noticed this happening before when my dd seemed to have really hurt herself and I couldn't hide my fear and she gets very scared, even though she isn't actually hurt too bad. I'm sure this could go the other way, too. But, again, I think I'm guilty of not validating her emotions enough.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

On the topic of feelings, I'm trying to put together my thoughts on the subject in a chapter. I came across an old writing of mine:

_Early on with my passion for positive parenting, I went overboard on *feelings*. Feelings reigned supreme and the need to validate, label, name and embrace them obscured the need to teach my children how to have feeling *and* manage the expression of those feelings. I would have cringed had anyone suggest I help my son gain perspective and modulate. I would have felt that they were suggesting that I tell my son how to feel. Today, I have no problems telling my children. "You're reaction is an 8. The situation is a 3. You need to gain control over how you are acting." I still don't punish for feelings (I don't really punish for anything). But nor do I let my children hold me or others hostage with the expression of the feeling._


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am going to discontinue responding to this thread as our goals for our relationship with our children are too philosophically different for me to be of help, it appears.

Best wishes,

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
I would have felt that they were suggesting that I tell my son how to feel. Today, I have no problems telling my children. "You're reaction is an 8. The situation is a 3. You need to gain control over how you are acting." I still don't punish for feelings (I don't really punish for anything). But nor do I let my children hold me or others hostage with the expression of the feeling.

I have been thinking about this all afternoon and last night. I guess I want to say that I think there's something vaguely insulting about "rating" a child's reaction to a disappointment. I know some mothers might feel comfortable saying this, but in my continuing quest to avoid blame, shame and pain, I am going to reject this comment.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laurapartera*
Johub-I like you.
Thanks for the reminder about deep breathing. That is also really effective with my dd. It's great because whenever dh and I get snippy or stressed she's say "Guys, take a deep breath and settle down."







That way I know that however we're acting is stressing her and she even has a suggestion for dealing with it. It usually diffuses us quickly!

A bit OT, or not, my 4 yo just started taking a kids yoga class. It's been an incredibly helpful tool for him when he's frustrated. I had worked on this with him before but it was much more meaningful to him coming from someone else. The other day when he was angry and on the verge of a total melt-down over some halloween candy he stopped and said, "I'm going to my room to do yoga!" then stomped away, slamming the door. While the exit was pretty full of anger, I was very impressed at his decision to take a time out and do yoga to calm himself down! He came out a few mins later totally mellowed out. Yay!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I always find these threads interesting. Most people find me to be a permissive parent I suppose. My kids decide what and when to eat, when to sleep, what to wear, what to study/read/watch on tv, and listen to on their CD players. We've guided them all the way with our information, ideas, and thoughts on all of it. We've modeled the kind of behavior we think is good, for the most part anyway lol-nobody is perfect right?









We come to an agreement, we work stuff out, we talk A LOT, we listen A LOT, we argue rarely, and explain our position. Children have the right to anger and all the other emotions I have as an adult, and I believe they should be respected just like anyone else. Back to lurking for now...







:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah, I sort of reject placing a number on a child's reaction to a situation. Every child is different...I for instance, got called "dramatic" all my life by my mom for "overreacting" to situations...turns out I am just an extremely sensitive person, moreso than my previous siblings... so I was expected to react to situations the same way they did or didn't or whatever and it did a lot of damage to my self esteem -- always feeling like I couldn't adequetely express myself because I would be shot down or waved away "Oh, she's just being dramatic..."

Label me what you will, permissive, whatever...but we have 2 rules in our house...we respect ourselves, and we respect others... if my daughter wants to go outside and get covered in head to toe with dirt, grime, sticks, stones, mud, whatever...that is totally cool with me, but please have enough respect for our home to hose off your feet or whatever before dragging mud in...if she wants to stay up until 2 am doing whatever, that's cool, but respect yourself enough to regulate how much sleep you can get by on, and respect that others may want to sleep so please keep the noise level down... you don't want to eat dinner? You want something else? Sure, eat what you like, no skin off my nose, but please respect my not wanting to be a short order cook and either get a pre-made snack (apples, veggies, yogurt, whatever) or I will be happy to make you something simple and quick (beans and quick cook brown rice or something)....

This of course is geared for a slightly older child, but even as a baby, we pretty much allow our daughter to sleep when she wants, she feeds on demand, she explores what she likes (we have made our space very child friendly, which helps a lot)...and I expect that will continue as she gets older...

We aren't so much "child centered" but we are family centered. We are a family unit. Yes, we are individuals and there is allowance for all of us to pursue individual interests that fufill us, but we are a family first and everyone in the family (except the cat maybe







) gets a say in what we do, how we live, where we live, etc... that doesn't mean one person will always or never get the final say, or that we will all always agree all the time on a course of action, but we will strive as much as humanly possible to be a family where all persons are equal in value, if maybe not equal in impulse control or life experience...


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I dont know.
I think being able to process emotion and move on, is a VERY useful skill. I also think that keeping perspective is a very useful skill.
Not everybody has a sense of perspective about such things.
It think a basic ability to control (not ignore) ones emotional reactions and a sense of perspective is really important in resiliency and overall happiness.
My child is much happier if he can see that something is truly not the end of the world, and he does have something to look forward to.
It is my child's overall emotional life, and not his fleeting momentary emotions which is the most important to validate to me.
And if I can help them learn the skills to be emotionally resilient and to pick themselves up and brush themselves off after small letdowns, then I will certainly do my best.
And if that means helping them recognize the smallies from the biggies. I will do that too.

Joline


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes, but I guess my question is, how do you distinguish between the big upsets and small ones when you aren't in your child's head? I mean, of course, if my daughter say, ripped a hole in her favorite pants or something... I would probably try to redirect her upsetment if she was still crying about it like a week later...but usually things like that don't happen ya know? Usually, children do "get over" what they are upset about when they need to...whether it be in 5 minutes or 5 hours...I just don't see how I can define what is important to my own child or what isn't (within reason as in the example above)....

Say she lost her favorite lovey...well to her, that lovey could have meant everything in her little world at that period of time... who am I to tell her, "Gee, that isn't a big deal sweetie, let's move on"... she can be upset as long as she wants about her lovey...

Yeah, moving on is great, but for a child not ready to move on, someone else, especially an adult in a position of power (no matter how gd someone is) telling them to "get over it and move on"...no matter how nicely, is really insulting to me -- as insulting as someone telling you to finish your dinner because their are starving children in Africa or wherever....


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Yes, but I guess my question is, how do you distinguish between the big upsets and small ones when you aren't in your child's head? I
One of my 3 kids has no intuitive sense of scale or emotional boundaries. He literally needed help, and scripts, in not responding to everything on level 10.

*All* of my kids and *all* of the daycare kids that have come through here needed, at times, to be told "enough".

I don't "do" adult/child analogies often because I don't think they are useful. But if an adult were reacting wildly and with too much intensity - and that reaction was affecting everyone around - I'd tell them to knock it off as well.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Yes, but I guess my question is, how do you distinguish between the big upsets and small ones when you aren't in your child's head? I mean, of course, if my daughter say, ripped a hole in her favorite pants or something... I would probably try to redirect her upsetment if she was still crying about it like a week later...but usually things like that don't happen ya know? Usually, children do "get over" what they are upset about when they need to...whether it be in 5 minutes or 5 hours...I just don't see how I can define what is important to my own child or what isn't (within reason as in the example above)....

Say she lost her favorite lovey...well to her, that lovey could have meant everything in her little world at that period of time... who am I to tell her, "Gee, that isn't a big deal sweetie, let's move on"... she can be upset as long as she wants about her lovey...

Yeah, moving on is great, but for a child not ready to move on, someone else, especially an adult in a position of power (no matter how gd someone is) telling them to "get over it and move on"...no matter how nicely, is really insulting to me -- as insulting as someone telling you to finish your dinner because their are starving children in Africa or wherever....

Losing your favorite lovey is a big deal, of course it is. I would never try to tell a child differently

There are other things that may not be a big deal to me, but are within the realm of what a child could think was important.

When I say little, I mean little, like: We don't have the kind of potato chips you want that day, the man at the store that gives free balloons gave you a red baloon instead of a green one, etc....

I have no problem letting them work these things out on their own. I think it is in fact very beneficial. So if my child were tantruming over one of these things, it's not that I'd say "You need to move on" in those words, but I would say " I am sorry that you are not happy with the chips. We will try to get the kind you like next time" and then I'd move on. I wouldn't engage in long conversations about how sad it was. I'd go about my day. "I am going to be in the bathroom tidiying up, if you need me.

Now with the lost lovey, I would be much more involved in helping them deal with their upset. It is a bigger deal.

This is what I mean by letting them learn to deal with the *truly little things on their own.*


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I have no problem letting them work these things out on their own. I think it is in fact very beneficial. So if my child were tantruming over one of these things, it's not that I'd say "You need to move on" in those words, but I would say " I am sorry that you are not happy with the chips. We will try to get the kind you like next time" and then I'd move on. I wouldn't engage in long conversations about how sad it was. I'd go about my day. "I am going to be in the bathroom tidiying up, if you need me.

Yes. I would do this, too. And this isn't too different from, "You're reaction is an 8. The situation is a 3. You need to gain control over how you are acting." But there is a difference, and even though it's subtle, I think it's important.

In one case, you are empathetic, but uninvolved. You model putting things in proper perspective, and you take responsibility for your own emotions but no one else's. You suggest a reasonable solution and move on.

In the other case, you place a judgement on your child's emotion, you instruct them how they should be feeling, and you're even just a wee bit snarky about it.

I also think that telling a child repeatedly that they're blowing things out of proportion or being dramatic encourages them to be even more dramatic, because since they're robbed from the ability to gain perspective on their own, they feel the need to REALLY convince you that they're upset, because their emotions have become your problem.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I also think that telling a child repeatedly that they're blowing things out of proportion or being dramatic encourages them to be even more dramatic, because since they're robbed from the ability to gain perspective on their own, they feel the need to REALLY convince you that they're upset, because their emotions have become your problem.
I understand the concern behind your posts on this one. I really do. I think it's unfair to assume that any of the posters who are comfortable with a higher level of emotional coaching are involved *repeatedly* or with the tone I think you surmise.

What I also know is that some children require assistance in learning the perspective some children learn more organically. I've seen kids who develop that sense of perspective. Obviously, you have as well. But I've also encountered children who don't have that and left with empathy only, spiral into a chaos in which they feel out of control.

I have not seen the problem develop in your last phrase. I understand why you think it might happen, but it hasn't.

The general rule here is that you can feel whoever you feel. You can not make anyone else feel it with you or hold anyone else hostage with your expression of that feeling. All children get emotional support and coaching on request.

And, yes, if there is an over the top reaction, I will impose a limit to it.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

What is the definition of an "over the top reaction"? Crying longer than you think they should? Being upset longer than you think they should? Being more upset than you think they should be about something in particular? Being upset over something you don't think they should be upset about? I mean the list could go on and on...

I agree that no one should be "taken hostage" by someone else's emotions, but imposing a limit to how someone can react (provided they are not detroying the joint or screaming at the top of their lungs so as to have the police called because neighbors think someone is being killed -- we do have some limits) I don't agree with.

I think it is healthy to let an emotion run its course, without stepping in on my part to tell my child that they are grieving too long, or are too angry, or are sad too long, or for the wrong reasons... I would let the emotion run its course, within of course, the above mentioned boundries I am willing to set for myself, and let my child know I am always there to talk, to listen, and to help them if they desire...

ETA: Of course I would try to help ..."you always feel happy when you color, do you think that might help you feel better?" things of that nature, but I would never be all "knock it off, you are overreacting"... or whatever is said....


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I think it is healthy to let an emotion run its course, without stepping in on my part to tell my child that they are grieving too long, or are too angry, or are sad too long, or for the wrong reasons... I would let the emotion run its course, within of course, the above mentioned boundries I am willing to set for myself, and let my child know I am always there to talk, to listen, and to help them if they desire...
Which is fine if you are dealing with a child who has an internal sense of scale and the ability to wind down and move on.

But the child who moved me from feeling like you do is one who has not intuitive boundaries for emotion and *needs* an external force and imposed information. It took 2 additional kids and more experience with kids for me to see that. Today, I trust *my* intuition about his needs. Since that time, I've met other kids like him. It is related, in his case, to his need for absolute firm boundaries where other kids can happily handle more flexibility.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Yes, but I guess my question is, how do you distinguish between the big upsets and small ones when you aren't in your child's head? ...

Well, I think one way to distinguish is how frequently is this type of upset likely to happen.
I mean, if a child is crying and carrying on for an hour because her crayon broke or I didnt have his favorite cereal in the house, that is a small upset being treated like a big one. The way I can tell is that any person is likely to encounter this type of upset every day of their lives, if not several times a day. If it took an hour of tears to process this every time, IMO that is an awful lot of my child's life being miserable when he doesnt have to.

A child likely only has one "lovey" but a box of crayons comes with 24. Crayons break all the time. It is part of life. Drinks get spilled. Friends play with other friends.

I might not give upset a numerical rank, however I do think that when something is a smallie, my child gets the corresponding amount of comfort and sympathy. If he or she needs to grieve some more, that is ok. But I am not going to encourage it by continuing to be a party to it or an audience.

Joline


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I do like the numerical rank, but my kids are older. I would not have used this on little kids.

Also, I don't see it being said meanly but rather really asking like "the situation is a three and your reacton is an eight. Why do you think you are reacting this way". If not said sarcasticly or meanly, but with true sincerity, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If I spilled some juice and was carrying on and on about it and my dh said something like this to me, I would not be offended at all.

I think that my 9 and 11 y.o. could really benefit by exploring this question sometimes.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I always find these threads interesting. Most people find me to be a permissive parent I suppose. My kids decide what and when to eat, when to sleep, what to wear, what to study/read/watch on tv, and listen to on their CD players. We've guided them all the way with our information, ideas, and thoughts on all of it. We've modeled the kind of behavior we think is good, for the most part anyway lol-nobody is perfect right?









We come to an agreement, we work stuff out, we talk A LOT, we listen A LOT, we argue rarely, and explain our position. Children have the right to anger and all the other emotions I have as an adult, and I believe they should be respected just like anyone else. Back to lurking for now...







:

My guess is that you aren't permissive. You sound "democratic" which is the "ideal." I don't have time to write the differences (as per Aletha Solter's great hand-out.)

Permissive parents generally resent their children at times because the children get what they want (more often than not) at the expense of the parent.

Permissive parents find it * very hard * to say no when they should.

Permissive parents typically have to argue, plead, wait, wait, WAIT for the child to do stuff.







:

Permissive parents look to the child for guidance. (!!!)







(All this I learned from Aletha Solter and all this was true for me.)

You don't sound resentful. Nothing you described sounds like my prior







: parenting. It sounds like a good equilibrium. All the communicating helps that.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I completely agree with this post! Unlike some of the people who see this post as permissive, or treating the parent/child relationship like a peer relationship, I see it as common sense. After all, we are really raising our children to leave us, aren't we? We are raising them with the mindset that hopefully they will be whole, happy, secure people will minds of their own and a healthy understanding of how healthy relationships should be...

Of course I would never say to my child, "Okay, you make all the decisions." That is ridiculous. Firstly, in a consentual relationship, no one makes all or none of the decisions. Secondly, if you look at raising a child the way you would look at someone studying Buddhism under a monk, it makes perfect sense that the parent would be more of a guiding presence, a presence of safety, a presence of wisdom...the parent has lived longer, has experienced more, has a greater understanding of how the world works and how people work. Just as the monk would not control the student, but rather, respectfully guide, teach, and lead by example, so does the parent of a consentual relationship.

It is not as if you ignore your three year old and tell them to do whatever they want and fend for themselves because you want them to "learn to make decisions"... but rather, you lead by example in your own behaviors, mannerisms, tone of voice, etc... you have your chilren be an intricate part of the decision making process as it relates to _their_ life. I would not look to my three year old for what I should wear to a party, but I would most certainly allow them the choice of what they wanted to wear...I would not be comfortable with my 5 year old spooning what she thought I should eat on my plate, so why should I force certain food on her? Things of that nature... I don't feel that is permissive at all, but rather, empowering to the child to let them know you trust them with issues regarding themselves-- to make their own choices, but still give them the security of knowing that you are right there to help them, to guide them, to love them, to keep them safe...

It is not my goal to have someone that I am "in charge" of. It is not my goal for that same person to "know who's in charge"... I would like a relationship with my daughter where she knows that I am not only legally, but morally and happily responsible for her safety, well-being, needs (food, shelter etc), and that in all other things, she will have as much as, or as little as, an opinion in her fate as she likes (within reality, no you can't light your hair on fire to see what happens) as it relates to what she wears, what she eats, where she goes, who she interacts with, how her hair looks, whatever...while at the same time knowing that I am always here to guide her, teach her, love her, and support her...

I dunno, maybe I am naive, but I don't see a relationship based on mutual respect turning into your teenager shooting up in alleys when they are 14... I just don't. It has been my experience with almost everyone I have ever met in my life, from young to old, that if you treat someone with respect and kindness, you most often recieve that in return.

You know CC, I get upset with you sometimes. You just take what I think and put it in words. And eloquently on top of that! How dare you


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

You know CC, I get upset with you sometimes. You just take what I think and put it in words. And eloquently on top of that! How dare you
aw shucks, that is honestly the nicest thing anyone has said to me on Mothering!!! Thanks!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I do like the numerical rank, but my kids are older. I would not have used this on little kids.

Also, I don't see it being said meanly but rather really asking like "the situation is a three and your reacton is an eight. Why do you think you are reacting this way". If not said sarcasticly or meanly, but with true sincerity, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If I spilled some juice and was carrying on and on about it and my dh said something like this to me, I would not be offended at all.

I think that my 9 and 11 y.o. could really benefit by exploring this question sometimes.

I was thinking about this last night. And yes it is also true for me and dh. WE will sometimes point out when our reactions are over the top as well.
I remember a time just a few weeks ago when we were in the car. I cant even remember if he was the one who was driving, but the traffic was really ticking him off, he was getting irritable and cussing. And I put my hand on his arm and told him "this isn't real you know." Which is basically my way of saying that in terms of his lifelong happiness moments like these dont even show up on radar so it is not worthy of his upset. He was not offended by my helping give him perspective. It was not a power trip or a judgment. It was just meant to help him get a grip.
So yes I do it with my husband, he does it with me and I also unashamedly do it with my children.
Joline


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Okay I'm really debating this in my head now.

My original thought was I would never tell a child to knock it off or get over it, well at least not those words. We are all entitled to how we feel. As growing human beings we do have to learn how not to abuse the world with our feelings (I am not saying this is happening). But when I _perceive_ the reaction as greater than the situation warrants (note the italicized...it's my perception, not theirs) I don't give as big of a reaction. I do say things like I understand it is frustrating when... If it continues to escalate I have a decision to make on whether to ignore/react small or intervene. Grocery store thrashing on floor knocking displays over vs. home in the middle of the floor no danger involved.

I have after the fact said something like, wow you really got upset about X, can you tell me what happened that made you so upset. I'm not questioning the validity of her emotions, but helping her to see it was a big reaction and did it get her what she wanted?

I also believe all people can learn to scale their own emotions. I obviously do not know people's own intimate environments, so I can't say this conclusively. I would hypothesize though that it would take a long time of having minimal reacitons to the "over reactions." And minimal internal reactions of our own to these.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
Permissive parents generally resent their children at times because the children get what they want (more often than not) at the expense of the parent.

Permissive parents find it * very hard * to say no when they should.

Permissive parents typically have to argue, plead, wait, wait, WAIT for the child to do stuff.







:


I don't know. I find this kind of judgemental comments off-putting. Like, if your kids put on pajamas at your first "bedtime" hint, as though in the military, then you are a successful parent. Otherwise you are bad, you are "permissive".

I do find it hard to say no to the kids. When they ask for something, I find a way to meet their request or I explain why I cannot grant that. I do take their wishes seriously, and I do not say "no" lightheartedly. My kids do not execute orders at the snatch of my fingers. More often than not, we get things done playfully. We often need to discuss how to get something done.

I have a long-term objective of my daughters (now 4,5 and 3) to understand that they are part of a family, and they need to help out, and every day I find they do more and more to make themselves useful. Some days, they help me hanging clothes outside, other times, they help me unload the dishwasher, or help me take care of the hamster... Often we will pick up their toys playfully at the end of the day .... Sometimes they won't.. that's OK... no big deal... My goal is not for them to pick up their toys every time they play...

I think labelling people permissive or democratic or elevate them to a kind of semi-god of parenting is not really all that useful. We are all humans. We all make mistakes...


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## jlpumkin (Oct 25, 2005)

Sorry, I just couldn't make it through all of the posts... but I'm throwing in my 2 cents as well b/c this is a pet peeve of mine. I have a cousin who claims to AP parent - though she does not. She just claims this when her whining demanding son is ruling their household. I think that AP gets unfairly blamed for parents who can't allow their children to experience the disappointment or upset that normal life calls for. I don't spank, shame, etc. But I do require that our daughter act as a member of our family, not the center of it. I believe that I would rather have her hugely upset now over something relatively small - ie. bad behavior at a play date means immediate termination of playdate (only had to happen once) - then have her go through the heart break of no social skills or friends as she grows.

I guess my 2 cents turned into more like 4


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I also believe all people can learn to scale their own emotions. I obviously do not know people's own intimate environments, so I can't say this conclusively. I would hypothesize though that it would take a long time of having minimal reacitons to the "over reactions." And minimal internal reactions of our own to these.
I agree with your first sentence. But the rest would not have happened with the children I've met who don't have an intuitive sense of scale. Kids *with* an intuitive sense of scale may indeed react with passion. A minimal response from adults will eventually help them understand and use a scale.

But some kids don't have incremental steps and a minimal reaction from parents won't teach them one.

For me, coaching and teaching a child to manage their emotions is as individual as teaching them to read. Some kids learn themselves, at 3. Some still struggle with simple phonics at 9. The fact that there are struggling 9 yo readers doesn't mean there is something wrong with the teacher (or parent) or the child. They just require a different/specific kind of intervention.

Coaching the one child I birthed who did not mature into a "scale" of emotional reaction was counter-intuitive to my concept of respectful parenting. Until I saw on his face, in his body and in his behavior that my elevated involvement was what he needed to help him. Then, it became very intuitive. (I've since met a few other kids who needed more scripted, imposed emotional coaching)


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I don't know. I find this kind of judgemental comments off-putting. Like, if your kids put on pajamas at your first "bedtime" hint, as though in the military, then you are a successful parent. Otherwise you are bad, you are "permissive".

that's not what I meant.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I do find it hard to say no to the kids. When they ask for something, I find a way to meet their request or I explain why I cannot grant that. I do take their wishes seriously, and I do not say "no" lightheartedly. My kids do not execute orders at the snatch of my fingers. More often than not, we get things done playfully. We often need to discuss how to get something done.

That's great... (the last part). I don't think anybody here expects any little person to execute orders immediately. That's not the point. I feel the same way about the first part.

Anyway, maybe this would help. Or maybe not.









*A Comparison of 4 Approaches to Discipline*
by Aletha Solter
http://www.awareparenting.com/

(I don't have time to write up Authoritarian/Violent or Authroritarian/Non-violent right now. My daughter just woke up crying, but I will do it ASAP. I'll just write up Permissive & Democratic for now.)

Nak. Here are all 4:

*AUTHORITARIAN (VIOLENT)
Who has the power?* Parents
*Type of control?* Control by physical or verbal abuse
*Methods used:* Hitting, spanking, threatening, yelling, humiliating, blaming, critizing
*Home atmosphere:* Tense, rigid, oppressive
*What children learn:* Blind obedience to authority,violence, competitiveness, lying, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Angry, hostile, scared, powerless, low self-esteem
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children rebel, leave, or "act out" (fights, drugs, etc.), become hurtful to others; parents run out of control

*AUTHORITARIAN (NON-VIOLENT)
Who has the power?* Parents
*Type of control?* Control by material & emotional means
*Methods used:* Rewards: money, privileges, treats, hugs, praise, attention Punishments: loss of privileges, isolation, withdrawal of love & attention, making child feel guilty
*Home atmosphere:* Orderly, consistent
*What children learn:* Conformity, apple-polishing, deviousness, competitiveness, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Resentful, angry, misunderstood, manipulated
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children withdraw emotionally, rebel, search elsewhere for unconditional love; parents run out of power

*PERMISSIVE
Who has the power?* Children
*Type of control?* No control
*Methods used:* Pleading, bribing, nagging, yielding, lecturing, waiting, self-sacrificing, rescuing, neglecting
*Home atmosphere:* Chaotic, inconsistent
*What children learn:* How to manipulate other, no self-discipline
*How children may feel:* Confused, guilty, insecure
*What can happen during adolescence:* Children are selfish, dependent, demanding, irresponsible; parents resent the children.

*DEMOCRATIC
Who has the power?* Everybody
*Type of control?* Self-control
*Methods used:* Unconditional love, modeling, encouragement, filling needs, listening to feelings, natural consequences, problem solving, family meetings
*Home atmosphere:* Relaxed, orderly
*What children learn:* Self-discipline, responsibility, problem-solving skills, respect, cooperation
*How children may feel:* Love & respect between parents & children; no need for children to rebel or withdraw

Obviously, all of us on the GD board (and MDC in general) are aiming for Democratic (i.e. Gentle Discipline). But none of us are perfect. I've done





















some of the stupid things on the authoritrian sides (blaming, criticizing...) I know that when I read the Permissive list, I saw myself very clearly.

Does this help you Gaialice or not?

Solter explains that many parents use mixed styles of discipline.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My only feeling about this thread is this: My goal is not for my daughter to meet the needs for other adults (be pleasant for adults to be around). My goals are for her to be happy; to grow up to become her authentic self, whoever that is; and for us to have a good relationship now and forever. This could not be accomplished if I were permissive, but it also could not be accomplished if I were controlling her. I don't worry too much about temporary behavior. I'm more concerned about her overall feelings about herself.

I think AP leads to a true and deep understanding and respect between parent and child, not to permissiveness. I think permissiveness stems from an "I don't care - do whatever you want" attitude and not from the kind of relationship created by AP.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I absolutely think thre are people who do not have a sense of what is a reasonable reaction, so i absolutely think some people might need external guidance in putting things in a more appropriate prespective.

Some kids can drop an ice cream cone on the ground for instance, and think 'oops. i'll just get another'. (If the scoop is not pressed down, they fall, and most places will give you another free- so i am not talking about money or 'waste' here). However, another child, from the same family, with the same set of free ice cream experiences will react with great anquish and may need reeling it in.

At the same time a parent can comfort the child, the parent can also do the child a favour by pointing out that it really can easily be dealt with. Aknowledging the loss, but not wallowing in it- "Oh, honey. I know how upsetting this is for you. blah blah blah just reinforces to the child it's on the same scale as losing a loved blankie. It's not. The parent --and child-- are better off with the "Oops, that's too bad" reaction. The child may still scream, but with the parent showing a more calm reaction, the child may feed off that calm better than hearing all his internal swirling verbalized over and over. "you're so so sad. i know, i know. " etc etc etc.

Sometimes when we wallow with our kids we make it more of a big deal than it should be. we're feeding their stress.

Plenty of adults over-react to the smallest things, and holy crap, is that annoying. We have one parent in our group right now making a mountain out of a molehill over a smal toy that was accidently taken by a toddler from her house. It's now a huge big deal when it should have been a non issue.
Oops, I think so and so borrowed one of our toys. Oops, oh yes. here it is.

I think presepctive is an important thing to learn, and some people need it more than others. It can be done respectful to the emotional needs, but not every event is the same, so reactions should vary.


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

Interesting thread!

Okay, I like the idea that some kids need more guidence learning to manage their emotions. And I agree that parental reactions play a role in the child learning to manage the emotions. But I'm not convinced that not allowing the child the feel the full range of their emotions is the best way to go about teaching emotion management. In other words, I don't like telling a child that the range of their emotions is off kilter.

So, in the ice cream example: the ice cream falls, the child cries. But maybe the child had stored up a lot of other upsets, and finally let them all out when the ice cream fell? To us, who didn't see the smaller upsets, it seems like the child is crying over split (frozen) milk. I think Playful Parenting talks about this, and how these emotional releases actually help free up the child. (Doesn't The Aware Baby say the same thing?) And maybe some kids just need more emotional releases than others.

Perhaps a better way to instead coach the child through the emotion, is to help lead the child to see *why* they are so upset. Like Johub said: "You seem very upset about this ice cream. Can you talk about it?" I think if the child gets hysterical, deep breaths are always helpful, but I really dislike the idea of outright stating that a child's emotional reaction is out of line. I think emotional coaching has more to do with helping the child figure out the root of their sadness, and then helping the child figure out for themselves how to handle it (with our guidance).

I'm not for letting them do it by themselves because I know of adults who when left alone to deal with small upsets, found internal distructive ways of handling them (e.g., self-hatred, negative internal talk, etc.). But I also think that if the parent can offer empathy, while still modeling emotional detatchment (i.e., clear emotional boundaries for themselves by not getting sucked into another person's anguish), then the parent can coach the child through their sad emotions.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

There is no way to control another person's emotions. You couldn't control a human's range of emotions in any given situation if you tried. (although people do try...)

I'm talking about helping the older child deal with them, and assisting them in putting various emotional reactions and experiences into prespective. Perspective is important.

Igorning emotions, and helping to put them in context are not the same.


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

That's true, having a good perspective and putting things in context is a great skill. I think, though, the humans are normally only open to hearing other people's help in putting things in a better perspective after they've felt genuinely heard.

Hmm, the more I type, the more I think that maybe we are saying the same thing!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I agree with the idea of putting emotions into prespective, not by saying "you are not allowed to feel that way" but by moving on yourself when the situations warrants.

What I mean is that if a child looses a beloved blanket they will need a great deal of time, attention and discussion of their feelings. This is appropriate.

But if you did the same thing when the ice-cream drops it's not appropriate.

I think you have to move on from small losses and you can "tell" a child this with your actions and behavior

"Oh, you dropped your ice-cream. Let's ask for another"

If the child is hysterical, I would remain calm and say something like "Do you want another vanilla, or should we get you chocolate this time"

I would go about my day, ignoring not my child, but their out of proportion reaction.

I would LATER with an older child inquire as to why they reacted in this way. Was something else bothering them? etc.....


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a link about 'Highly Sensitive People' who comprise approximately 15-20% of the population. And a copy of the 'Is your child highly sensitive?' test.
http://www.hsperson.com/
http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

Is Your Child Highly Sensitive?

A Parent's Questionnaire

Instructions: Please answer each question as best as you can. Check answer if it is true or at least moderately true of your child, or was for a substantial time in the past. Leave unchecked if it has not been very true of your child, or was never at all true.

My child:

1. startles easily.
2. complains about scratchy clothing, seams in socks, or labels against his/her skin.
3. doesn't usually enjoy big surprises.
4. learns better from a gentle correction than strong punishment.
5. seems to read my mind.
6. uses big words for his/her age.
8. notices the slightest unusual odor.
9. has a clever sense of humor.
10. seems very intuitive.
11. is hard to get to sleep after an exciting day.
12. doesn't do well with big changes.
13. wants to change clothes if wet or sandy.
14. asks lots of questions.
15. is a perfectionist.
16. notices the distress of others.
17. prefers quiet play.
18. asks deep, thought-provoking questions.
19. is very sensitive to pain.
20. is bothered by noisy places.
21. notices subtleties (something that's been moved, a change in a person's appearance, etc.)
22. considers if it is safe before climbing high.
23. performs best when strangers aren't present.
24. feels things deeply.

Last updated on August 17, 2005
Copyright © 1999-2005 Elaine N. Aron, Ph.D. - All rights reserved.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Thank you for posting this scubamama.

I think the fine line between dismissing your childs feelings and not helping him/her learn to deal with small disappointments in life depends on many things
like sensitivity level, maturity level, personality, previous experiences, etc.,

While it is true that I personally would get annoyed by witnessing an adult person "overreact" to a situation (on the other hand who am I to say it was an "overreaction", but lets say I percieved it this way); I would also get upset (and have gotten upset) when I feel strongly about a matter and my husband dismisses it as a "small thing"


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree. I would never in the world say to my husband, "this situation is a 3, you're reaction is an 8"... I think that is really condescending and rude actually. People may argue, 'your husband is an adult, you aren't *raising* him..." Yes, that is in fact true, but in my humble opinion, it is not my place to put a label on ANYONE'S reaction. People are using extreme examples here. Don't you think though, that if your child is consistently (key word) crying for 2 hours over tiny things, or consistently throwing unbelievable fits over things that any other child wouldn't -- that there may be a deeper issue to explore? I say consistently, because we all have our *off* days, the child may be hungry, or overtired, or going through some other stress at the moment -- but I feel that if a child on a daily basis, is having major 2 hour long freak outs over situations that don't warrant it, that is the LAST time to withhold empathy and to disregard their feelings as an overreaction or drama or whatever. That would indicate to me possibly a sensory issue, or deeper emotional distress about something, or maybe a food or dye allergy, or something....

All those things aside, if the only "problem" (and I use that term sarcastically) is a highly sensitive child, I would also think that withholding empathy, or basically telling them to "get over it" (even in nicer terms) would be a disservice. It is showing a small child (imo) that the person who is supposed to love them the most in the world, is disregarding and not validating their feelings because _they_ percieve them to not be worthy or important.

In a small child's world, something like an ice cream cone could be the highlight of their entire day, especially here, where most of us are health concious -- so if it spilled on the ground, I could totally see a small child getting really upset. Now if that same child, after replacing the cone and all that, is still crying and screaming for an hour...again, I believe (unless it is a really off day) there is something deeper there to be addressed. To me it would be the last thing to tell them to get over it.

In our home, I want my child to always feel loved, always feel secure, always feel heard, and always feel respected. Yes, there are many cruelties in the world and believe me, she doesn't need me to "toughen her up" by showing her that people aren't always going to care if she is upset -- I am quite certain the world will show that to her... but when it does, I want a strong foundation there of self confidence, of security, of knowing that even if they don't give a damn, that there is someone who will show them empathy, who will take their upsets seriously, who will comfort them when they are upset.

This stuff about moving on, they have to learn how to get over things, they have to know that the world doesn't revolve around their feelings... has the same creepy connotation to me as letting a baby CIO...aren't those all the excuses people give for that? How is it any worse with a toddler, or a bit older child? A baby may be fed, rocked, burped, changed, loved, swaddled, sung to, everything, and still cry...they may just be lonely....so we don't let them cry, we love them, hold them....

Is the infant "taking us hostage" when their needs are all met and they still cry out of lonliness or boredom or some upset we can't understand? I strongly say no.

Why is it when they get a tiny bit older, some of us are so willing to disregard the feelings of a small child and tell them to just "get over it" when they are upset?

You can't compare tiny children to adults in the respect of "well I tell my husband when he is going crazy over something small"..because one would think, that after 20 or 30 odd years someone would be able to accurately distinguish between something tiny and something huge... or at least if they are upset, have learned the skills to not behave crazed, like throwing and breaking stuff etc...

...but with a very small child, it is not my place to teach them how upset they should be, could be, shouldn't be, etc... it is my job to teach them how to respect themselves and others around them, while loving them, keeping them safe, helping them feel secure, heard, valued, important and letting them become the people they are going to become without being stifled.

Telling them to get over an incident because it doesn't matter to ME, even if it is big to them, doesn't fall under that in my book.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Sorry I disagree, I think that it is my job to let them learn that they have the power all by themsleves to get over little stuff. I think many childen carry on becasue they are terrified that unless their parent helps them get over it, they can't. This to me is emotionally retarding them.

I understand you disagree. That you think that a person should always reach out to others when upset. I think that this is what leads to a dependant personality. The adult who can never get over things. Who rehashes everything looking for a differnt but unatainable outcome. I dilike this aspect of a personality. I see this in my SIL who was raised this way. And in a friend who was raised this was also.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I want my children to know that they do have the power within themselves to get over minor dispapointments. That they don't have to desperately seek out others to get them over it.

I can see how much happier my kids are that they know that they have the aiblity to overcome minor upsets on their own and that they can alwasy depend on me for the ones that are not minor. They are amazingly good at knowing the difference.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Sorry I disagree, I think that it is my job to let them learn that they have the power all by themsleves to get over little stuff. I think many childen carry on becasue they are terrified that unless their parent helps them get over it, they can't. This to me is emotionally retarding them.

I understand you disagree. That you think that a person should always reach out to others when upset. I think that this is what leads to a dependant personality. The adult who can never get over things. Who rehashes everything looking for a differnt but unatainable outcome. I dilike this aspect of a personality. I see this in my SIL who was raised this way. And in a friend who was raised this was also.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I want my children to know that they do have the power within themselves to get over minor dispapointments. That they don't have to desperately seek out others to get them over it.

I can see how much happier my kids are that they know that they have the aiblity to overcome minor upsets on their own and that they can alwasy depend on me for the ones that are not minor. They are amazingly good at knowing the difference.

But Maya44, allowing your child to deal with their disappointment on their own, after you feel they have the skills to do so, and telling them, basically, to "Get over it." are two different things, don't you think?

I agree that ignoring a child's reaction, once you are certain they have the skills to cope with disappointment on their own, does help children develop emotionally healthy reactions. But I think LABELING a child's reaction would have the opposite effect. ESPECIALLY because of the children I've seen who have a harder time processing and sorting through disappointments.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I just want to say, that this is the best thread I've seen on MDC in a LONG time, if ever. This is one of the most helpful GD threads I've ever read.







And I'm really glad someone brought up the TCC idea of child-centeredness. The discussion has been fascinating, and I'm learning a lot from both sides.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I think that the word "permissive" has gotten a bad rap.
Instead of simply being a description of a particular pattern of behavior the word has been taken to be a judgment that is obviously bad.
I think that some parents are permissive because they want to be. I do not agree with the above definition that a permissive parent feels resentful towards their child etc . . . And just claiming the term "permissive" does NOT equate to bad parenting.
My oldest daughter has a rebellious personality type. The only way to parent her and get any amount of cooperation is permissively. I purposely do things permissively with her because she has to be actively involved in any decision in order to internalize it.
I am not a permissive parent by nature. I hope and pray every day that the personality requirements of my younger three children will not require me to parent this way because I think I have more to offer my oldest daughter than she is willing to accept.
Some parental philosophies I firmly believe are rooted in an ideology whilch is equivalent to permissiveness. (although the word might not be used because even the word "permissive" implies that parents should have the power but that they give it to the children. If you believe the chldren have the right to their own power, the word permissive doesnt really seem to imply. Although in practice it is the same. )
It is my philosophy that authoritative is best and that is waht I strive for. I want to be a strong and loving guiding force to my children.
But we throw these words around and act like they are epithets rather than merely adjectives, and I dont think that is necessary.
JOline


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My child who is classic Highly Sensitive benefits *most* from our calm reactions. Too much talk feeds dc's stress. A hug and a bit of empathy "Oh no. That's a bummer" works far better than going on and on about every minute detail of dc emotions. DC needs big reactions to be met with calm, almost breezy reactions. I've seen dc lose it over spilling water. A bright "Oh gosh, here's a towel" which I then throw over the spill helps dc to see it's really not a big deal at all. Dc's body can physically react strongly to even small events. Not reacting as strongly to the event is not saying one's emotions are unimportant--it's saying one needs to be realistic for mental health.

I have seen dc breathe a sigh of absolute relief when I tell say 'Stop, now. Nothing bad will happen. Stop. Your body is reacting strongly, but your body needs to know everything is really fine. Let the feeling wash over you, but you don't have to let it suck you in". I think a lot of the anxiety that plagues Highly Sensitive people can be lessened as they see people around them go on with their lives when something is spilled--or broken-- they really need to see it's no big deal.

To those you are polarizing this -- this conversation is *not* about either being sympathetic or cruel. it's about being realistic. While I have never put a number on a reaction, I think that could probably be very handy to an older child trying to put emotions and reactions in prespective. I am sure it can be said kindly and with the child's understanding of what it means.

I don't see code as being inherently insensitive.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I want my children to know that they do have the power within themselves to get over minor dispapointments.
...but at the end of the day, it is YOU labeling what is important and what is not important in the child's head or world...

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I didn't once suggest that I want my child to "desperately" seek out approval or help on an emotion, and to suggest that is plain insulting. What I do want my child to know though, is that just because something may not be a big deal to ME, that I can still recognize and empathize when it may be a big deal to her -- instead of disregarding her feelings and taking on the role of "I'm the parent, I know what is a big deal and what isn't" at the expense of her own feelings..

Also, I never said there had to be a big, 4 hour reaction to something either. Reacting calmly is a very useful tool and one is able to epathize, sympathize, comfort, talk, explore feelings etc while remaining calm (me relating to her I mean)...

...but to just disregard a child's feelings because I'm "the boss" and I know what she should or shouldn't be reacting to and how and on what scale is wrong to me.

These discussions often end in disagreement because there is a fundemental difference in parenting outlook. There is one school of "my child is her own person and though I am here to love, guide her and keep her safe, I will try everything in my power to see that she is treated as an equal in all ways" and there is the perspective of "I won't hit, or yell, and I am a good mom who loves my kids, but make no mistake who the parent, and thus, the boss is"....


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Too much talk feeds dc's stress. A hug and a bit of empathy "Oh no. That's a bummer" works far better than going on and on about every minute detail of dc emotions.
One of my kids is like this (Not the one who needs a lot of emotional coaching). The one who needs *space* to feel and process emotion escalates his expression when he's focused on during times of passionate response. He has very strong intuitive emotional skills and clearly prefers to be left alone during his processing. Even labelling them irritated him. Apparently he already knew he was angry, frustrated, sad, etc and telling him the names served only to make things worse.

The hard part for this mom was teaching the child who requires a high level of emotional coaching to leave the one who requires little *alone* during processing. The one who needs help assumes everyone needs company/help and the one who prefers solitude to process can't understand why someone would *talk* to him.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
...
arent, I know what is a big deal and what isn't" at the expense of her own feelings..
...

You're polarizing an excellent discussion.

Who is saying this?

My children's emotional lives matter very much to me---which is why i see it as important to help my children, esp my highly sensitive one-- learn to calm the swirling mass of conflicting physical feelings some humans have.

There are all sort of ways to be an empowered person. Understanding how one's body reacts to various stressors and how to handle that is something we can all benefit from.

There are many layers to emotional reactions, and children deserve a tool box full of coping mechanisms. Some kids benefit from a lot of talk and some kids need something a bit different.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
To those you are polarizing this -- this conversation is *not* about either being sympathetic or cruel. it's about being realistic. While I have never put a number on a reaction, I think that could probably be very handy to an older child trying to put emotions and reactions in prespective. I am sure it can be said kindly and with the child's understanding of what it means.

I don't see code as being inherently insensitive.

This is a good point. I think I'm one of the ones who is guilty of polarizing it, but I think the "3-8" thing just really rankled me. I deal w/my sensitive dd's reactions in much the same way as you. And, I can see now if you had had a talk about situations in which dc got upset, and discussed degrees of distress, you could use the number system without shaming your child.

Now that I think about it, I think this discussion has gone on because of the op's feeling that she is too "permissive", and I think I hoped that she wouldn't broadly classify all recognition of negative emotions as being "permissive" when I read HappyHSer's comments.

BTW, I really like what johub said about "authoritative", as always.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
There are all sort of ways to be an empowered person. Understanding how one's body reacts to various stressors and how to handle that is something we can all benefit from.

This is great, this is one thing I strive to teach my dd.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
He has very strong intuitive emotional skills and clearly prefers to be left alone during his processing. Even labelling them irritated him. Apparently he already knew he was angry, frustrated, sad, etc and telling him the names served only to make things worse.

This is so interesting! My mom tried this a lot with me, too, always labeling things for me. It kind of worked, because my irritation with her distracted me from what I was upset with in the first place. If only that had been her intention...poor lady. I should call her.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
...but at the end of the day, it is YOU labeling what is important and what is not important in the child's head or world...

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I didn't once suggest that I want my child to "desperately" seek out approval or help on an emotion, and to suggest that is plain insulting. What I do want my child to know though, is that just because something may not be a big deal to ME, that I can still recognize and empathize when it may be a big deal to her -- instead of disregarding her feelings and taking on the role of "I'm the parent, I know what is a big deal and what isn't" at the expense of her own feelings..

Also, I never said there had to be a big, 4 hour reaction to something either. Reacting calmly is a very useful tool and one is able to epathize, sympathize, comfort, talk, explore feelings etc while remaining calm (me relating to her I mean)...

...but to just disregard a child's feelings because I'm "the boss" and I know what she should or shouldn't be reacting to and how and on what scale is wrong to me.

These discussions often end in disagreement because there is a fundemental difference in parenting outlook. There is one school of "my child is her own person and though I am here to love, guide her and keep her safe, I will try everything in my power to see that she is treated as an equal in all ways" and there is the perspective of "I won't hit, or yell, and I am a good mom who loves my kids, but make no mistake who the parent, and thus, the boss is"....


I was with you until your last paragraph, Captain Crunchy. I just don't think it's so cut and dry. I personally constantly vacillate between wanting to coach my child a little bit more and save her some of the pain that I know is going to come if I let her do it her way, or wanting her to learn on her own and developing self-reliance. It's a fine line, I think, and for most parents it's impossible to be completely one way or the other.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Now that I think about it, I think this discussion has gone on because of the op's feeling that she is too "permissive", and I think I hoped that she wouldn't broadly classify all recognition of negative emotions as being "permissive" when I read HappyHSer's comments.
I'm feeling a bit attacked and taken out of context here. I have not commented on the personal feel of this thread up until this post.

I'm not the one who used the word permissive. Indeed, I think I worked hard to leave that out as a concept in my responses in this thread.

I offered workable, concrete ideas that are respectful and appropriate ways to offer emotional coaching to a child. Aside from stating facts that I won't allow one person's emotions in a home to set the tone for everyone else, I did not comment on other's approaches. I explained *mine* and the reasons I chose it.

If you read what I actually *wrote*, there is nothing but honor and respect in my approach to emotions, of all kinds. Happy is not the only acceptable emotion in my home.

My words and intent in parenting have been unfairly judged in this thread and I have not been polarizing or commenting on other approaches at all.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Who said they would never discuss a parenter's big emotions over something small? I can't find that line, but i know i read something like it in this thread.

I have to confess- while I have not dismissed my partner's emotions, I have told him he's making a big deal out of something small. The first thing that comes to mind is when he was upset that our first child was drawing and playing with art supplies at our dinning room table. I reminded him that we bought the 'distressed' finish for this very reason. And reminded him that we were going to live in our home, not turn it into a museum. He kind of jerked his head up and went' 'You're right. Of course. My first reaction was, 'Oh, no! What's he doing?!''.

I didn't tell him to shove it, or that i didn't care about his feelings, but I did run through the situation with him. I simply did point out that he was making a big deal out of something that wasn't.







I might have saved myself some time had we worked out some code in advance.







"Hon. That's a 9 on 1 situtaion. Remember why we bought the 'distressed' finish?"









I think it's unusual for partner's not to clue each other in on these things. My dh has talked me down a couple of times in my life, with me thinking later "OMG. he's right. Who cares?" I think older kids can benefit from some gentle guidance in these areas as well.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

...oops double post


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## Girl Named Sandoz (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
My child who is classic Highly Sensitive benefits *most* from our calm reactions. Too much talk feeds dc's stress. A hug and a bit of empathy "Oh no. That's a bummer" works far better than going on and on about every minute detail of dc emotions. DC needs big reactions to be met with calm, almost breezy reactions. I've seen dc lose it over spilling water. A bright "Oh gosh, here's a towel" which I then throw over the spill helps dc to see it's really not a big deal at all. Dc's body can physically react strongly to even small events. Not reacting as strongly to the event is not saying one's emotions are unimportant--it's saying one needs to be realistic for mental health.

I have seen dc breathe a sigh of absolute relief when I tell say 'Stop, now. Nothing bad will happen. Stop. Your body is reacting strongly, but your body needs to know everything is really fine. Let the feeling wash over you, but you don't have to let it suck you in". I think a lot of the anxiety that plagues Highly Sensitive people can be lessened as they see people around them go on with their lives when something is spilled--or broken-- they really need to see it's no big deal.

To those you are polarizing this -- this conversation is *not* about either being sympathetic or cruel. it's about being realistic. While I have never put a number on a reaction, I think that could probably be very handy to an older child trying to put emotions and reactions in prespective. I am sure it can be said kindly and with the child's understanding of what it means.

I don't see code as being inherently insensitive.

As the mother of a Highly Sensitive Child I know _exactly_ what you are talking about and agree with you completely. I am a Highly Sensitive Person myself and tend to have extreme emotional reactions that I can get caught up in. I definitely benefit from a calming influence, someone saying 'take a deep breath, it's only XYZ'. I don't see this as devaluing my reaction but helping me put it into perspective and giving a frame of reference that helps me attain an emotional balance.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
This is so interesting! My mom tried this a lot with me, too, always labeling things for me. It kind of worked, because my irritation with her distracted me from what I was upset with in the first place. If only that had been her intention...poor lady. I should call her.


I think people are so different-- what works for one totally irritates another. Recently, in regards to my grandmother's failing health, I sighed to my mother, 'I know how powerless you must feel". My mother said "I really hate it when you 'do that'. You don't have to tell me how I feel".










I think it can sound as patronizing to some kids as it sounds to some adults. I wasn't patronizing my mother, just filling in the spaces, when some people, my mother included, are perfectly comfortable with the spaces and don't need to label what it obvious.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
I'm feeling a bit attacked and taken out of context here. I have not commented on the personal feel of this thread up until this post.

I'm not the one who used the word permissive. Indeed, I think I worked hard to leave that out as a concept in my responses in this thread.

I offered workable, concrete ideas that are respectful and appropriate ways to offer emotional coaching to a child. Aside from stating facts that I won't allow one person's emotions in a home to set the tone for everyone else, I did not comment on other's approaches. I explained *mine* and the reasons I chose it.

If you read what I actually *wrote*, there is nothing but honor and respect in my approach to emotions, of all kinds. Happy is not the only acceptable emotion in my home.

My words and intent in parenting have been unfairly judged in this thread and I have not been polarizing or commenting on other approaches at all.

I'm sorry that you're feeling attacked HappyHSer. I was actually trying to explain that in retrospect I felt I had taken your post a little out of context, but that I had a strong reaction to your comment about:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
"You're reaction is an 8. The situation is a 3. You need to gain control over how you are acting."

I wanted to explain that my reaction was fueled by this part of the OP's post:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraPartera*
So anyway, in the last year I have come to believe that permissive parents that "reason" with their children are doing the kids a disservice-children are not mini-adults, they NEED their parents to be in charge.

Because being an authoritative parent doesn't give you a right to tell your dc how to feel just because you are "in charge". And I see now that's not what you meant, but it did get some discussion going. So please don't feel attacked, nothing was meant personally.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LauraPartera
So anyway, in the last year I have come to believe that permissive parents that "reason" with their children are doing the kids a disservice-children are not mini-adults, they NEED their parents to be in charge.
Getting back on topic, I take issue with that statement a lot. It is not my goal that my child know "who's in charge"...that seems really power-trippy to me. My daughter will know this: Legally and morally (and happily!) I am responsible for her health, safety, clothing, food, roof over her head, and to help guide her towards adulthood by modeling and attempting to teach her through various methods how to function as an emotionally healthy, happy, secure, human being in the world without me (not as in dead, but not under my roof type thing)...I think that can be accomplished without me being "in charge" of her. Will this be possible ALL the time? Probably not, as of course there will be times where safety and the law will be concerned --i.e. I will have to "control" her putting something back on the shelf that we aren't buying or can't afford so she won't steal, or "control" her by not allowing her to run into a busy street...but I have a feeling that type of "in charge" isn't what that comment is referring to.

My daughter will always know that I am a soft place to fall. She will know that as her mama and daddy, we have more responsibilities in general, and her job is simply to be a kid, and a happy kid at that...while at the same time learning the skills that will carry her into adulthood -- respect for herself and others, helping the family work as a healthy, functioning unit, patience, natural consequences, etc...

I honestly think that can be accomplished without her knowing "who's in charge"...

I also think reasoning is a very valuable skill in raising a child. Of course, under a certain age or maturity level, the reasoning is pretty minimal and basic, but it can still be done. Reasoning helps critical thinking, it helps open discussion, it helps to see things from different perspectives, it helps get to any "deeper" issues that may be at play...I think it is important in the parent/child relationship...

Either two things happen when there is no reasoning: It will be done my way, or your way...that's it...and coming from the perspective of that comment about parents who "reason with their kids", I derive that the poster seems to think that there should be no reasoning, that it should be a "because I am the mom and I say so" kind of situation.

That simply goes against my whole parenting philosophy.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Getting back on topic, I take issue with that statement a lot. It is not my goal that my child know "who's in charge"...that seems really power-trippy to me..

I wanted to get back to the original statement that children "need their parents to be in charge" which I 100% believe in.
But I do not think this is tme same thing as making the child "know who is in charge."
Some (shall we say ) "Authoritarian" style parents primary goal is to teach their children WHO is in charge. Because their primary means of direction is to have their children always obey them (and they dont really ever have to learn anything else)
It is my belief that children are born knowing that their parents are In charge. (basically meaning parents have all the power, babies are helpless and they take that power from parents slowly as they grow up) And it is always a pointless exercise to take any action for the actual purpose of showing the child "who's in charge" or "who is the boss" or whatever.
These are two different things. Being the one primarily in control. And taking action to make sure your child knows it.

I do not think that the statement by the OP that children need their parents to be in control in any way implies that parents need to prove to their children that they are the boss. Simply that the parents respect the need of their children for them to manage most of the power and teach the child slowly to take more and more of it. As opposed to giving the child most of his or her power and only witholding what power might cause great harm if used (the power to run into the street for example).

I am of the camp that children feel most secure when they know their parents have it all under control and they only have as much freedom and power as they can handle at any time. I do respect however that there are those who disagree and believe that a childs power beongs to the child at birth and parents have only to keep them safe and loved.

Joline


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

Quote:

I'm feeling a bit attacked and taken out of context here. I have not commented on the personal feel of this thread up until this post.
I'm sorry you are feeling attacked HappyHSer. Even though I intially disagreed with you, Maya, and UUMom, I thank you for bringing up some provokative ideas that I hadn't considered.

Talking about parents being in charge. Well, the fact is that we *are* the authority, or have the power simply because we are older, have the house and money, make the appointments, etc. BUT, I think the best ideal to aim for is for parents not to use their power over kids, but instead go about making decisions democratically. Granted when they are little, they have less "say," although we still always try to accomedate thier wishes. (For example, with matters of safety.) But, as they get older, our "power" should only be used in the rarest cases.

I like what Thomas Gordon says about it: "It is paradoxical but true that parents lose influence by using power and will havemore influence on their children by giving up their power or refusing to use it [in order to make kids "obey"]." While I do think that a child's power belongs to them since birth and is equal to the parents, I would define this "power" more as their rights to their own life. Parents will always have more possession of controlling influences than their children--but I think using it carries a cost.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
Does this help you Gaialice or not?

Tanibani, thanks for posting this. The thing is, as I said and other pp said also, I do not find it useful to put a label on people. I mean, there are so many things affecting the atmosphere in your house: for instance, having lots of help from grandparents, living in a house with a garden, having a supportive dh, as opposed to living in a small apartment with two young kids, having a spouse who travels, living far from one's family of origin.... These things make a huge difference on the house atmosphere, independently from your parenting style. So, in my view, zeroing in on permissiveness as the root cause of the house being messy and the atmosphere kind of tense, I find that unfair.... it leads to guilty feelings. I know I am trying my best, given the circumstances, to be a good parent. What helps me is: learning to maintain my calm through meditation and self-nurturing, finding ways to show my love to the kids, having some good tools (playfulness, constructive dialogue ...)when things get rough.... Labelling me as permissive, which is where I would probably fit in reading your list, honestly this does not help me much...


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to read each of the posts. I see some concerns regarding attacking and will go back and read carefully. But noting I have not read enough, please keep it kind and gentle. Thought provoking discussion without attack leave the biggest mark.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
These are two different things. Being the one primarily in control. And taking action to make sure your child knows it...

Simply that the parents respect the need of their children for them to manage most of the power and teach the child slowly to take more and more of it...

I am of the camp that children feel most secure when they know their parents have it all under control and they only have as much freedom and power as they can handle at any time. I do respect however that there are those who disagree and believe that a childs power beongs to the child at birth and parents have only to keep them safe and loved.

Joline, ITA with this and love the way you phrased your post, especially in these sections. I think that a child can sense when the parent is confident in their role and 'in control' of/handling situations and life in general, but not necessarily *controlling* the child. I sincerely believe there is a difference.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
My guess is that you aren't permissive. You sound "democratic" which is the "ideal." I don't have time to write the differences (as per Aletha Solter's great hand-out.)

Permissive parents generally resent their children at times because the children get what they want (more often than not) at the expense of the parent.

Permissive parents find it * very hard * to say no when they should.

Permissive parents typically have to argue, plead, wait, wait, WAIT for the child to do stuff.







:

Permissive parents look to the child for guidance. (!!!)







(All this I learned from Aletha Solter and all this was true for me.)

You don't sound resentful. Nothing you described sounds like my prior







: parenting. It sounds like a good equilibrium. All the communicating helps that.









I don't know if I would label these permissive but to me *some* of these are what I feel are "The biggest mistakes of those attempting to practice gd and wondering why it isn't "working" ". For me those are:

*Resent their children at times because the children get what they want (more often than not) at the expense of the parent.*

If you feel "resentful" you are not setting up a healthy model. Of course my children are often going to get what they *need* at my expense, but I do not let this happen with things they *want* so much that I feel resentful.

*find it * very hard * to say no when they should.*

If you really need to say "no" to your child, and you are finding it hard and letting that show, you are not doing your child any favors. They sense that ambiguity and I believe it makes them feel insecure.

*have to argue, plead, wait, wait, WAIT for the child to do stuff. :*

I do think "waiting" for them to do stuff can in certain circumstances be very helpful, as long as it is done in an "active waiting mode" but if you are arguing and pleading with your child, you are setting the whole dynamic up for failure.

*look to the child for guidance*.

I am not sure what this means. Looking to your child for guidance as to their wants, needs and personal emotional style is fundamental to good parenting.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I haven't had a chance to read each of the posts. I see some concerns regarding attacking and will go back and read carefully. But noting I have not read enough, please keep it kind and gentle. Thought provoking discussion without attack leave the biggest mark.
Ooops. "Attack" was a poorly chosen word on my part. Unfairly represented or scrutinized out of context is more like it.







No one has done anything inappropriate in this thread. Sorry to send up a red flag.

You are reacting with an "8" but the situation is really a "2".


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I don't know if I would label these permissive but to me *some* of these are what I feel are "The biggest mistakes of those attempting to practice gd and wondering why it isn't "working" "

Thanks Maya this *really* helps. As I said, I do not like putting labels on people or on myself but I do accept that I make mistakes. Wow, it took reading 5 pages of this thread to find the right angle from which to see it!!

If we talk mistakes fine, I am ready to own up to the fact that I do a lot of pleading and that really sets the whole dynamic up for failure. That is true.

I also agree that you do not need to say yes, if saying "yes" leads you to a place where you are resentful. This does not make it necessary to say "no" in my opinion. For instance, saying, "mmhh, you would like chocolate cake, but it is almost time for dinner. What do you think we could do?" or "I see you would like another story. I know it is nice to read together at bedtime and I like that too. Now it is almost time for me to go finish cleaning up, so let's cuddle up and switch lights off". I do not use no very lightheartedly, it is a cultural question I believe, a lot of cultures find "no" impolite, as I learned at my expense living in a very multi-cultural environment...

Looking to your child for guidance, yeah, I find that confusing too. We are on this parenting journey together my kids and I.

For me the distinction between wants and needs is not a strong one. It is not something I ask myself before saying yes or no... but I guess this would lead us off track...


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
Ooops. "Attack" was a poorly chosen word on my part. Unfairly represented or scrutinized out of context is more like it.







No one has done anything inappropriate in this thread. Sorry to send up a red flag.

You are reacting with an "8" but the situation is really a "2".






































:


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Thanks Maya this *really* helps. As I said, I do not like putting labels on people or on myself but I do accept that I make mistakes. Wow, it took reading 5 pages of this thread to find the right angle from which to see it!!

If we talk mistakes fine, I am ready to own up to the fact that I do a lot of pleading and that really sets the whole dynamic up for failure. That is true.

I also agree that you do not need to say yes, if saying "yes" leads you to a place where you are resentful. This does not make it necessary to say "no" in my opinion. For instance, saying, "mmhh, you would like chocolate cake, but it is almost time for dinner. What do you think we could do?" or "I see you would like another story. I know it is nice to read together at bedtime and I like that too. Now it is almost time for me to go finish cleaning up, so let's cuddle up and switch lights off". I do not use no very lightheartedly, it is a cultural question I believe, a lot of cultures find "no" impolite, as I learned at my expense living in a very multi-cultural environment...

Looking to your child for guidance, yeah, I find that confusing too. We are on this parenting journey together my kids and I.

For me the distinction between wants and needs is not a strong one. It is not something I ask myself before saying yes or no... but I guess this would lead us off track...


I guess for me and the cultural that I am in saying "no" is not impolite or offensive but just "not beating around the bush"

I do not, and never have, feel upset or unhappy just because someone says "no" to me. I have no problem saying "no" to my children where appropriate.

Because perhaps of my cultural bias torwards blutness, I dislike it when a child is on the verge of tears because someone said "no" to them. Now by this I do not mean that a child should not get upset by not being allowed to do something they really want to do. But what I mean is that when a child actually seems terrified of the word "no".

My children are not afraid of the word. If they feel it has been said for no good reason, they know that there are steps they can take to question or change it. But freaking out because someone has told you, you can't do something is to me unhealthy and unproductive.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I see your point Maya. I think it is also an age thing. Saying "no" to a 2 year old is different from a 14 year old. At the same time, I think that saying "no" does not invite discussion, whereas "beating around the bush" as you say, really means explaining your point, and when the points gets across to the other person, she can try and see if there is a solution that would make both people happy.
It is certainly true that this sometimes leads me on to saying "yes" when I do not want to, and that is a mistake, no doubt, but I what I mean is that there is a space, between saying yes and saying no and that place is negotiation. MY mistake in my opinion is that I say yes, not that I do not say no.
I really try to involve the kids in the decisions we make, and saying no, that feels like closing the discussion, or at least not inviting one. However when I do say no, my children understand it is not a negotiable issue. If I do say no, like I say "no, we will not buy candy, it spoils your teeth" then it is pretty much a not negotiable no. So I am not sure my kids would say that they can see steps to change it. But there are not all that many nos, I do not use that word very often...


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