# Traditional Foods (NT) Mamas - October Thread



## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, thought I'd start the thread for October.

I'm boiling chicken for stock/soup and have sourdough made with some (2 cups) Kefir (OMG, it really makes the bread soft and fluffy) ready to go for later (cold weather baking is so nice...)

I made chocolate pies a few days ago and used VCO in the crust, and WOW, they turned out flaky and perfect. I grew up with 'Crisco' for pie crusts, so I'm glad the coconut oil works so wonderfully! I know you can use lard, but I don't have any!

I am on my second batch of Kombucha tea, and this batch turned out MUCH nicer! It's smoother and more mellow. I can drink it straight, rather than having to water it down. I actually have neighbors wanting a baby shroom for making their own.









Anybody tried Piima culture yet? I keep delaying sending off for some...

I make vanilla yogurt now too, and wow, what a difference from store stuff! I put it in little 'jelly jars' used for canning, put on the band lids and then place them in a insulated lunch tote (Little Playmate brand) and add hot tap water. 4 hours later WOW, awesome yogurt. They have been turning out just fine! I use Yogurmet brand starter, organic whole milk, and add a dash of organic vanilla extract just before pouring it into the little jars.

Thanks for letting me ramble on...naking and the Dh is in the kitchen helping chop veges for the soup...so I'm delaying going in there..hahah...mmm...if I time it just right..he'll have the soup almost made for me


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Hooray for new threads! Thanks xenabyte!









We've recently gone dairy-free, mostly because it's such a PITA to drive down to the raw goat's milk place, and secondly because I have recently suspected that it makes me congested (even the raw stuff, though definitely not as bad). So unfortunately, no more yogurt or kefir for me. And double unfortunately, I think DD is allergic to coconuts so I can't do coconut kefir either. Sigh. Maybe I'll do some rejuvelac or kefir d'aqua (if I can find grains for that) so I can still get some fermented beasties in me.

We've been doing lots of harvesting and canning, loads of tomatoes, and vinegar pickles. It's finally gotten cool enough to lacto-ferment so we started a big batch of saeurkraut which hopefully will not get moldy like the last batch we did. We're probably going to do some sauerruben soon when we harvest our turnips. Our poor chinese cabbages are being decimated by cabbage worms but hopefully we'll get enough to turn into kimchee.

Still feeling pretty good, am trying a gluten-free experiment to see if it makes me feel better. I keep flirting with the idea of low/no grain too. I definitely notice that I feel like crap on the days that I eat heavy on the grain.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, the Kombucha would be fermented beasties, sans dairy of any kind...I'll have extra shrooms in the coming weeks...

I agree. I did a low carb diet, NOT like Atkins (with so much meat), I actually ate stir fried veges (in quantity) in good oil, and added in chicken, sometimes shrimp and occasionally beef. I just didn't do any grains and no sugar. I did eat a LOT of deviled eggs, though...I dropped like 20 pounds in 4 months. I had to start adding back in grains and such. I also noticed my 'tiny bloated tummy' went away, but hey, when you lose 20 pounds, hard to tell if it was just fat!

I do not have as much problems with the soaked grains, as I did with regular ones, so I'm so glad my sourdough bread is better for me for TWO reasons now...

I agree about dairy in general. If it wasn't for Kefir, I'd not be drinking any milk. I would still be doing cheese though..man that stuf has 'power' over me...









I'm still 'tweeking' our diet...maybe someday I'll settle on the perfect fit for me..until then, I kinda go by how I feel, as well!


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## phroggies (Sep 13, 2004)

Hey, all:

I'm just getting started on some of the NT practices and have been pleased with the results thus far. I'm getting ready to cook an apple crisp and was wondering if anyone had any experience soaking oats (or for that matter, flour) before baking them (crisp: spread fruit in a pan and top with a mixture of oats, flour, butter and sugar. Bake. Devour.). I may be dreaming the impossible dream here, but, well, I'm going to eat it anyway so I'd like to make it as healthy as possible. Any tips or relevant experiences?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I've yet to make a 'crisp' the NT way, but you can soak the oats in water with some lemon...then spread them on a cookie sheet and quickly dry them and toast them up some. The lemon would work well with the apple flavors too. I'd probably either use bulgar wheat (which is pre soaked) and gind it finer...or just use an unbleached flour you like. Soaking, drying and grinding wheat for just the crisp would be a LOT more work...


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I keep hearing good things about kombucha but caffeine does bad things to me so I've refrained thus far. Maybe one day I'll get brave and try it though.

I feel like I'm constantly tweaking my diet! Ah, the days of blissful ignorance I used to have so long ago, eating packaged and fast foods and not realizing that that was why I felt so dang sick! :LOL Sometimes I forget how long of a journey it's been.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Xenabyte, I'd be interested in hearing more about making sourdough with kefir. Do you just add it to any recipe, replacing... what? Or is there a special recipe you use?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Toraji,

I make Kombucha with caffeine free Green Tea (Celestial Seasonings) and it's wonderful! I do no not drink caffeine, since I'm still BFing...but again, it's something you either like to drink or not...the flavor takes some getting used to...

Persephone,

I have been using Kefir JUST like Buttermilk. It turns out even better, I think. OMG, biscuits and Kefirmilk yeast rolls are so good. I usually make a 'sponge' and soak (sour) it over night, but it will be just as yummy if you only have a few hours during the day to do it (and make it for dinner). For example, here is what I did for my Kefir Sourdough:

*Kefir Sourdough Bread*

4 cups flour (Whole Wheat, Spelt, or unbleached regular)
2 cups Kefir
2 cups warm water
1 tsp SAF Instant Yeast ('rise' insurance policy)

Stir in a glass bowl (big one) and soak a min of 2 hours up to over night. I cover with a damp clean cloth and sit on counter top or in oven if it's a chilly day and just turn on the light. This is your 'sponge'.

When ready to make bread, I melt a stick of butter, then let it cool off. I add probably 2 tsp sea salt to the sponge and mix with a wooden spoon. Then I pour the cool (just not hot) butter in one spot and slowly stir to integrate. (If you leave a little butter in your pan, you can use it to brush the top of the loaves before baking). I then start adding in unbleached flour by the cup full, and stir until it's incorporated and the dough begins to thicken to the point it's easier to handle.

At this point you could give it a whirl in a table top mixer, and keep adding flour until it gets to where you can shape loaves, or I just pour about two cups flour on the counter and 'gently knead' until it's not super sticky. I like it more soft, like a 'biscuit' dough. I cut into 4 loaves, and slightly flatten, then roll them into 'logs'. I sprinkle either cornmeal or some ground wheat or spelt on 2 cookie sheets, and lay two loaves, on each pan, side by side with some room in between them. (They cook faster and I like the 'peasant' feel).

I cover the loaves with a clean 'dish towel' and let rise until they bulk up. This takes about 30 min to 1 hour, depending on how warm my kitchen is. (Again, can use the oven/light trick).

I preheat oven to 400 deg F and bake them for about 25 minutes. I let them rest a few minutes and then transfer to baker's racks to cool. I sometimes brush butter with just a tinge of garlic (or cinnamon sugar, if I want it for 'sweet' jams, etc) on top, and then cover the baked loaves with a clean dish towel to slightly 'steam' them and make the crust SUPER soft.

Enjoy. This bread was super soft, puffy, and tasty!


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Can someone tell me about coconut kefir? We can't do dairy and I really do not like the taste of goat. But I love coconut milk, so coconut kefir sounds wonderful. Also, I've been getting canned coconut milk. Is that what people are using? I would rather get frozen coconut milk but haven't found any yet. Also, is creamed coconut + water better than canned? Or do you think they're about the same. I'm almost ready to order some coconut oil, and I might pick up some creamed coconut if its good.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

this will be fast and dirty response to coconut Kefir. naking, getting ready to go on a 'jog'...

i used canned coconut milk for my first experiment. Shook can well, put in glass jar added the kefir grains and let it sit over night. It tasted really good!

Now, I love Tropical Traditions Coconut Cream Concentrate, and use it for smoothies, but for some reason it didn't ferment well with the kefir grains. I made about 'two cups' coconut milk using the coconut cream concentrate with water, and then added the grains. The oils in it kinda re formed and I ended up with small lumps of hardened 'oil' in the mixture...but my kitchen was cold when I tried it. So I can't really say if it would do this with yours. It did NOT hurt the grains, they fermented regular milk fine afterwards, and the flavor is more mellow now. So perhaps it was a good thing to try the experiment! Using the ccc might be more akin to doing 'kefir d'aqua' and might need more sweet in the mix (sugar) and then you'd have to convert your milk grains (or some of them) to 'aqua' grains and you eventually wouldn't be able to use them in milk again...but anything with a sugar/water ratio like the Dom suggests would be fine or even fruit juice.

If this doesn't make sense...google Kefir Grains and or I'll post the 'dom's' website with a TON of Kefir info when I get back from my jog.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I thought I would let you all know that I made 6 loaves of bread last thursday, froze most of them. I am so stoaked! I've been buying sprouted grain bread for forever it seems like. Yea!


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I'm looking for some advice about kefir. I have been making it for a few weeks now, have tried putting it in the fridge to slow it down but basically I need to get rid of a few grains. What do people do to thin their grains? What would be a good routine? Does dehydrating the extra grains really make since? I have been making it with far more grains that Sally calls for in the book because that's what the woman who gave me the grains suggested and also it has been working for me.


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## phroggies (Sep 13, 2004)

xenabyte, thanks for the advice (sorry to take so long responding, but soaking, cooking, etc.). It turned out a bit closer to cobbler than crisp, but no one complained, and I think I can see my way to tweaking it a bit more in the crisp direction. I thought the soaked oats were delicious (and yes, I just went with straight unbleached flour). Thanks again!


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

phroggies - I would love your apple crisp recipe. I am sure that there is a reason that there is no cinnamon roll recipe in NT but what the heck. So I tweaked a family recipe and made fabulous rolls. . . kind of like NT. I substituted white flour with soaked freshly ground whole wheat, and all the sugar for honey and rapadura. I'm sure that they aren't "good" for us but they have to at least be better.









Kefir Help!!! Okay so here is the problem. I just started doing kefir (thanks to Xenabyte!







) and I can not get my family to eat it unless it is in a smoothie, okay I can't really get myself to eat it either unless it is in a smoothie.







: It doesn't taste anything like the kerfir I buy in the store. I think I did it right it smells and tastes like the instructions say. Quick! I need kefir ideas before it starts coming out my ears!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I have been making Kefir Sourdough bread every few days...it keeps really nice too, even just on the counter in a bag. Kefir pancakes, biscuits, smoothies you know about already...







, basically anything you can find a recipe that calls for buttermilk, you can use the Kefir. My other favorite, when my frige jar gets too full of Kefir, is to make it into whey and cream cheese.







it's awesome, and with just a pinch of sea salt, it makes a great spread! With some seasonings, it makes a great dip...just add in a bit of whey to thin it out, or regular milk or water and your favorite 'dip' seasonings.

I think the store bought stuff is more an amalgam of a 'yogurt' type culture with some 'Kefir' culture added in. Many of the store bought Kefirs are sweet or flavored too. I mix fresh brewed Kefir with fruit juice and it comes out great for a 'yogurt drinkable' type effect.

I was thinking about starting a Kefir thread with JUST recipes, so it'll be easy to 'search' and find them. I've just been super busy these last few days, and these 'slow load' MDC glitches are no fun when you have a whole 5 minutes of computer time, spaced between chores, kids, and other stuff, and you want to read/post FAST and then get back to what you need to do...

/hugs to all.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Heather,
that would be a great idea to start a kefir thread. Thank you so much for the ideas. Just out of curiosity, do you drink kefir straight? Is it just an aquired taste? Well anyhow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is having a hard time with this website, it's running very slow.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I do believe it's an aquired taste for /real/ brewed Kefir.









But I'n not a big milk drinker, just a big milk byproduct user (Cheese, sour cream, butter, yogurt)...if that makes sense.

I hated Kombucha the first time I drank it, now I can drink it straight up. I'm still working on the Kefir straight up...I usually drink a small amount when I strain it...but am finding it's just nice to have on hand for 'add in's' for baking breads, smoothies, cheese making, etc....


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Hey NT mamas. Thought I'd give this thread a little bump.

Let's see, our progress here: I'm reading Weston Price's book. I have been critical of the writing and structure, but sat down to read it in spite of those issues and have found it to be very interesting. I am understanding more of the complexity of his argument. I have just started, so I am not ready to report back to you all, LOL, but I do recommend it.

I've cut out more carbs and am trying to lose my summer fruit fat and my first trimester fat before I miscarried. I've been exercising a good bit as well.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Hey! Thanks for the bump!

DH went over the Weston Price book with a fine-tooth comb, and after he did that he said, 'That is a man obsessed with dairy!". :LOL I will admit that I have not done the same fine-tooth comb treatment with the book. But the major complaints that we had with it was that Price did not talk much about native vegetation in the diets, so it's hard to tell what or how much the cultures were eating of that.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I pickled squash

I just used the old-fashioned salt and water method. I nested a little jar in the mouth of a big one to keep the squash from floating and molding. It actually tastes like pickled squash. Imagine that. Now I just need to figure out what to do with it. I've got nearly a gallon.

I had a second jar of summer squash and eggplant (first jar is winter squash) and it is helping to speed up the composition process in the compost bin. It was nasty. It had some floating vegetables that went wild with mold while I wasn't looking (which was the whole week it was sitting).


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Reading Weston Price makes me appreciate the pregnancy and lactation diet on the WAPF website. I have always been amazed at the sheer amount of food they recommend. Here is their list:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children...ormothers.html

But in reading Price, I am getting a newer, more profound sense of the nutritional requirements we have. He assumes we'll absorb half of the nutrients we eat (and really depending on our circumstances - stress, yeast, etc - it could be a lot less) and he states that pregnant and lactating women need 2X the nutritional requirements of folks in a regular state. In the old days I really did assume that I was absorbing all of what I was eating. I did appreciate that I needed more while pregnant, but I can see now why I've been eating like a working man for a year and a half and am still hungry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
But the major complaints that we had with it was that Price did not talk much about native vegetation in the diets, so it's hard to tell what or how much the cultures were eating of that.

Good point. I skipped the sections on the specific cultures, but have seen little on that in the chapters I have read.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Hey all...

I would like to join this thread. I was given a copy of NT this summer, and it is the first cookbook I have read cover to cover. I started to adopt some of the easier things, but have held off on all of the fermenting on my own and making kefir and such, though I was making yogurt for awhile.

Now I am reading Sugar Blues and am feeling like its really time to commit to making more substantial dietary changes. Especially really kicking my sugar habit- I'm so addicted







... mostly baked goods and ok, chocolate. So, i could use this thread to keep me motivated. I am already excited about making that sourdough bread, as our favorite sprouted spelt bread is almost $6 a loaf









where have you all acquired your kefir grains?

thanks-
kelly


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome Kelly. Xenabyte and I have been mailing kefir grains lately, though I have been getting some flack from the postmaster.







I'll be mailing some soon to an MDC mama (need to tell her they're not out yet in fact).

I'm also belt-tightening. Cutting out the fruit and a certain fermented pleasure. Hoping to lose a few pounds. It is hard to be strict. Our diet is pretty NT-oriented, so that's not a huge deal. Having only a finite number of apples a day is a bigger deal.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Aye, I'm sending out grains (usually 1-2 boxes with a starter) a week now. Just PM one of us for mailing info.

Glad to be back...I had my computer crash for two days, and it feels like a week...mainly missed my MDC mommas!

/hugs to all...I'm just thankful my hubby was able to save me and all those recipes I've been typing up!


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Heather, I wondered what happened. Usually when there is a new thread, usually you've beat me to it.







You have quite a bit of knowledge on many subjects.

By the way, I LOVE vanilla kefir, so does my daughter! I haven't gotten DH to try it yet but I'll let him get jealous before he gets a sip!


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Gale force,
Boy do I know. I've plateaued at my current weight and size and can't seem to get past it. I'd like to be able to wear MY jeans and not just my husbands!









I think I just need to exercise instead of sitting here at my computer.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I've added a yoga class (once a week on Tues Mornings) and have been walking with my neighbor on a local trail anywhere from 2 to 4 miles. We are also alternating days with a 'Pilates' video she has. I must say, I'm still eating the regular stuff, but here it is week 3 and I lost an entire pants size, which amounted to about 5 'solid' pounds on the scale, and my legs, butt and tummy are shaping up nice.

hehe, yea, when I get quiet, you should wonder what happened to me...it's usually my computer crashed! :LOL

Oh well, stupid new window security update, it's worse than getting the actual virus it's supposed to protect against! hahaha...

Fair warning, I might have to wipe my entire system and start over now, as the update corrupted some files. So I'll be trying to 'rescue' all my recipe files (the only ones I care about) and having to reinstall EVERYTHING...ugh.

So if I'm 'quiet' for a week, that's what happened!








to all


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

What helped me with losing weight is cutting out breads, crackers and such. I cut those foods out because my body is not digesting carbs well (and I only ate whole grains). I was losing weight after dd#2 because I was training for a marathon. When I gave up on the training (nutritionist's advise because my body was in starvation mode), I thought I was going to stop loosing weight. Well, I continued at a steady pace. I'm almost back to pre-dd#1 weight. I still run 3-4 miles a day, but I definitely think its the starch thats getting me.

BTW, any suggestions for nice warm drinks for the fall and winter? I'm supposed to watch my sugar intake too, so something thats not too sweet would be good.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I was walking about 2 miles daily with my double stroller but I kept seeing our local bear. Well needless to say I turned into a chicken and quit my walks.







I'm sure the bear is close to hybernation, so I really should walk again.

I also had a denise austin yoga and pilates video, wierd, but it worked and I stopped doing it because I would keep getting interupted by one or the other of my lovely children.








There is a great yoga place in the nearest town, but they have no child care.

Here is the wierd part, I've lost all the weight with the exception of my belly and butt. What's up with that?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I finally started a normal exercise routine. I have convinced Frederick that it is exciting to go in the stoller -- it's exercise for mama, that will make mama strong like Frederick, etc. So off we go in the stroller and Frederick says "mama talk about exercise." So I do. On and on. The good thing is that on our little mountain road here I get a very good workout. Each stroller ride down to the main road and back is probably only 1/2-3/4 of a mile, but it is a killer. We do it twice a day now.









Oh, and I don't eat many grains normally, so the stuff I have to cut back are the incredible apples in season (I am sure I gained 5 pounds in the winter and spring from oranges, 5 in the summer from nectarines, and 3 or so from apples before my belt-tightening). Since my miscarriage in late July I also started a wine habit -- nearly a glass every night. I'm glad I've avoided medication like Diflucan to protect my liver only to become a wine-o.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Hey all!
Since the topic is on weight loss right now, I thought I'd tell all you open minded mamas something I noticed the other day. I know it's a bit controversial though.








One day I ended up eating fat liberally. Butter, cream, CLO, eggs cooked in a little lard, and some other fats.
The next morning I noticed my stomach, which has always had that big lower tummy pudge, kwim, that I can never get rid of-anyway, I noticed that it looked like it had slimmed down quite a bit! I was suprised.
That theory that you hold onto your fat if you don't eat enough fat may be true!
just thought I'd share.
I'm sorry you have to cut out fruits, Gale! I would be sad!
Your doing much better than I am though, I'm still working on cutting out some junk.









edited to add that the cream and butter is RAW of course!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

tweetybirds -- as a person who thought that fat makes you fat, I am not surprised by your report. I have eaten a very high fat diet for 18 months and lost 45 pounds the first 9. In the last 9 I have not been strict enough. There was all the fruit but also during our move period in the spring, we ate out A LOT and, needless to say, those meals weren't all they could have been. It's all added up to too much weight for me. I do want to lose some that I have gained.

But, here's the real skinny on what I am doing: I had a heart-to-heart with my mom over whether we could afford another baby. And this is "afford" in terms of can my body handle it. I have had very bad PPD and have been working on correctly my nutritional deficiencies which apparently were pretty severe. All along of course, I have nutrients flowing from my nipples almost hourly, so it is not easy to get where I need to get. I would really like to have another baby and a number of older women have let me in on their confidences lately about their desire to have more babies way back when. The pain doesn't go away. I'm almost 36 too, so I don't see that I have a whole lot of time to get where I need to get to make this happen.

Anyhoo, the diet is a weight loss diet to some degree, it is taking care of the last little strong holds of candida that caused the diet in the first place, and generally, it's eating a whole lot of very high nutritional foods so that I can have another baby and actually survive it. To this end, I have made a renewed effort to make sure I am getting all of the best foods regularly -- liver 4 times a week, broth daily, high quality salmon 2-3 times a week, a bit of cultured dairy, and of course a bunch of vegetables. I have also been exercising regularly first, for mental health reasons, second to lose some fat and gain muscle (which will help with the mental health indirectly).

I'm giving it three months before I make any decisions about more children. I don't think I should torment myself with that decision on an on-going fashion, so I'll work on my state now and decide later what's best based on how I'm doing.

So that's the "skinny" on me. hee hee


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Gale:










I think you are on the right track to allow your body time to heal, irregardless of your personal decision on having more children.

I didn't have my first until I was 35, and this second one, I am 38. So if I wanted to have one more (to try for a girl), I'd probably be 40, with timing and all that (due to BFing and no AF and all that).

So it can be done. Just keep doing what you need to do health-wise and try not to listen to the dogma about women over 35 having kids. I have had two really healthy babies and great births.

Those hills sound like killers! I have to push uphill on the trail when I take the kids in a stroller (NOT a good stroller either, it is horrible on trails), and I always think....WHY am I doing this??? I need a 'jogger stroller' or something!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks Heather. That is a perspective I need right now.

Yes, get a good stroller. I don't know how I'd do it without a jogger. Frankly I don't know how I do it with one. It takes us 25 minutes to do the walk -- and it's well under a mile. The problem is that it is pretty much downhill first and then uphill nonstop on the return. I'll have to take a picture sometime.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I totally understand what you're saying Gale Force. After dd#2 (and nursing dd#1 for 3 years), my body was no longer taking in nutrients from the foods I eat. Thats why I'm on a high nutrient diet as well (eating meat for the first time in 10 years...). My nutritionist is limiting my fruit intake to 2-3 a day though (and I love fruit). The chicken soup seems to be helping quite a bit (my pH jumps back to normal on days I have the soup). Anyways, I'm thinking about adding some liver into the diet. How do you cook it? The recipes in NT requires 1-2 lbs of liver, isn't that a lot? Are you using those recipes?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

mamaMAMAma,

I actually haven't followed the NT recipes, I am getting trained by my mom.







We rinse the slices, put them in a bowl, squeeze some lemon juice on, let it sit for a while (this just depends on when we got started in the kitchen). We make a flour, salt, and pepper mixture and use it to lightly "bread" the liver. Chop onions, cook onions, set aside. In same pan, add liver, cook on medium high heat for a couple of minutes on each side. Then add water or broth and cover and cook for another few minutes. At thispoint I hover, paranoid, with a knife, and check for pink. If it's overcooked it's pretty tough (but I eat it regardless). I get mine at Whole Foods for $3.69/lb. WE go through about 2 lbs/week, on my own I would probably eat 1 lb.

Liver has made a big difference for us.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I have a hard time with liver so I usually make it into a very spicy sausage. Most of the time we wing it though, so I don't have a recipe. But one time we had lamb liver and we prepared it this way:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...er#post2017341

GaleForce







2 ITA with xenabyte. And I feel the same way you do about my body still recovering from a previously insufficient diet. I definitely feel the pinch from DD's nursing, and I think another baby right now would wreck me.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

"as a person who thought that fat makes you fat, I am not surprised by your report. I have eaten a very high fat diet for 18 months and lost 45 pounds the first 9".

Wow that is amazing! congratulations on that accomplishment!

"but also during our move period in the spring, we ate out A LOT and, needless to say, those meals weren't all they could have been."

Yep, that's where I am now, moving can mess up so many routines, but I'm slowly trying to get back in gear!!

"it's eating a whole lot of very high nutritional foods so that I can have another baby and actually survive it. To this end, I have made a renewed effort to make sure I am getting all of the best foods regularly -- liver 4 times a week, broth daily, high quality salmon 2-3 times a week, a bit of cultured dairy, and of course a bunch of vegetables."

You are doing so well! I hope that your body will respond well to all of the great stuff you are doing for it so that you will be able to have another child. Pregnancy and nursing really does take so much out of us. After each birth I have had health problems that were pretty severe, but eventually leveled out. I'm so glad to have this thread to remind to focus on how important it is to get the real nutrients into my body during my childbearing years.
I have heard that health problems that make themselves manifest after having a baby are indicative of what what your health will be like 10 or so years down the road. Mothers really do sacrifice their bodies for their children!! It is so important for us to get our bodies working to absorb nutrients so that our health doesn't deteriorate while we are trying to raise those babies!
I'm glad someone else asked about liver too-I have a hard time with it as well.
Does it matter what kind of liver? Like chicken or beef liver? Does anyone know of good online sources or do you get it from local farmers? Oh wait, someone said Whole Foods, maybe I'll check that out too.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I'll give that liver recipe a try. I checked WF last week, but they have the gizzard and liver all mixed together and didn't have any liver left. A lady was getting some liver for her cat and was helping the "butcher" with picking out the liver. I wasn't paying any attention, but what does the liver look like? Is it bigger than the heart and gizzard?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

On liver -- Our Whole Foods ( 2hours away) doesn't always have it, but what we get is beef liver. Once I saw them cutting the liver and was shocked to see how big the organ is. It must have weighed 30 pounds. They slice it in thin slices and put several slices in a plastic freezer-like bag. On occasion they have veal liver as well for about $5 a pound. I asked my chiro what kind of liver he recommended -- beef, chicken, etc. He said beef, preferably with the blood drained. Some liver does seem to have more blood than others, but I am not sure if the WF stuff fits his ideal. Ask your WF butcher about liver if there is none out. Sometimes they have some in the back and can slice it up for you.

A friend of mine likes to get her liver in bigger pieces, freeze it, and use some sort of an electric knife to thin-slice the frozen liver. She breads it and fries it. That might be an option for people who are more liver-squeamish.

What is liverwurst? I've never had it. Is that a viable option? I have no idea what's in it. Liver pate? Anyone? Perhaps I'll hunt around.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks again ladies for your support.

I can't remember if I mentioned this, but one of the bad things I incorporated back into my diet was wine, every night. So I've been craving it each night now. I think Sally Fallon says that alcohol cravings are a B vitamin deficiency. Interesting. The last hold-out in my otherwise good diet is black tea. I was up to three cups a day. Today I'll make it two. I keep reading SF's comments on caffeine to keep me focused on getting off of it. That is a very hard one for me -- there's something about the experience of drinking tea that is hard to give up (same with wine really).


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

So it looks like liverwurst is traditionally made with pork liver and some other pork meat. I'm sure it could be adapted. But sauteeing is so much easier, I don't think I'll branch out for now. I don't see the liver eating as a culinary experience. I just eat it. I would hate to spend a whole lot of kitchen time on it.

Oh, I forgot to add on how we cook liver here -- we make a gravy after the liver is done, then put the liver and onions back in with the gravy. It's not bad. Liver tastes a bit rangy, but not nasty.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, it looks like I'l double my post count today alone.









I just made the most incredible salmon salad. The key ingredient is this salmon (canned):

http://www.vitalchoice.com/

Simple salad: salmon, banana peppers, pickled squash, red onion, dressing (yogurt + homemade mayo), salt.

Incredible.

We need more work just to pay for the salmon though.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Gale,

Don't give up tea, or the 'ritual'...just switch teas.









I LOVE the Celestial Seasonings holiday teas (caffeine free) and they are nice to have. There IS something about holding onto a warm steaming mug and sipping while looking out the window at snow or a gentle fog coming down off the mountains.....

In the summer, it's Raspberry Zinger iced, or a nice caffeine free Green tea.

Now liver...hmmmm...when I was a kid, I would eat it cooked like steak, with A-1 sauce on it.

Now, I am still having issues getting a grip with my 'head' around to eating it.
I think because of all the stuff you read about environmental toxins and the liver is the great 'detox' processing center, I subconciously worry about contamination....even with organic raised cows...

I'm sticking to my strawberry flavored, Living Fuel smoothies to get that nutritional 'boost' for BFing and 'healing' from having two babies fairly close together.....it tastes much better







haha


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Gale,

That salmon salad sounds GREAT. I love canned salmon, and I agree...the cost of the 'good stuff' is prohibitive to eating it as much as we'd like ...

I have a 'Cranberry Orange Kefir Cream' pie in my refrigerator. I made two and let them chill overnight to make sure it all 'set up'. I am thinking I need to cut a small slice for 'early lunch' to test it...hey, it's got Kefir in it, so it's a 'probiotic' pie....haha


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
Gale,
Now, I am still having issues getting a grip with my 'head' around to eating it.
I think because of all the stuff you read about environmental toxins and the liver is the great 'detox' processing center, I subconciously worry about contamination....even with organic raised cows...

Yes, definitely an issue. The liver processes all of the bad stuff, but it also is a big storing house of minerals. I was hesitant, but I've responded so well I figure my body is increasingly able to flush out all of its toxins, including those in the liver.

Oh and on the tea, I am definitely working on a caffeine-free alternative. I just checked the cupboard and was not satisfied with the options, so I'll have to shop for some this week when we head to civilization.

I just finished my salad and licked the bowl clean. Literally.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hehe,

I...erm...uhhhh....just 'tested' the pie (ok, so it's only 10:30am here...but I was doing it as an experiment so I could post how yummy it is!)

OMG it's AWESOME! My son Alex helped, and he's eating some too! He's kinda 'pie picky' so that's a good sign! It set up really nice, and is all creamy and fluffy at the same time.







Mmmm, Cranberry Kefir! A new Thanksgiving Pie, to be sure!

Recipe is in my 'Got Kefir' thread. I am heading over there to do some minor edits now that I've tasted it with the changes I made!!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Amanda,
What about finding a herbal tea rich in nutrients that you love and makes you feel good.

I formulated a wonderful tea made of roots, bark and leaves of different herbals. It is nutrient dense and tastes rich and amazing. Most the time it satisfies my need for caffienne, some days I give in and have organic french press coffee







: This tea has been very helpful to me nutrient wise.

I formulate lots of teas for my clients too..with all kinds of wonderful different herbals.

Have you tried Rooibois?

Colleen


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

This is such a great group!
















this hug is for gale force. While I was pregnant I began to bleed and I thought, well you know what I thought. Anyhow you are doing exactly what you need to be doing right now - taking care of you and your children. Also, you are still a spring chicken by any means when it comes to having children. A good friend of mine just had her first at 41 and my sister just delivered her third at 38. You'll know what is right for you, don't let an age or anyone else dictate it (like you would.) Anyhow I wish you the best.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I've been confused about the whole mercury issue with Salmon so I've avoided adding fish back to my diet. Is the canned salmon at the vitalchoice site pretty safe? I know to look for wild salmon from Alaska, so I guess this would be it?

I'll see if they have beef liver then. I grew up eating pork liver and I liked it. I remember it was cooked in a vegetable soup or something like that.

As for caffeine, I kicked that one many years ago. I was drinking 5-6 cups of coffee a day, and would get headaches on the weekends because I was drinking less. One day, I woke up and gave it up. But I'm kind of like that, in a black and white kind of way.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Amanda,
What about finding a herbal tea rich in nutrients that you love and makes you feel good.

Have you tried Rooibois?

Thanks Colleen. I had honestly never thought about herbal teas as a mineral source. Medicinal, yes; tasty, yes. My mom had an herb business in the 70s and actually sold herb teas at craft fairs. I mentioned your note and she's working on a plan.







We live together here in the sticks.

What is Rooibois?

Quote:

I've been confused about the whole mercury issue with Salmon so I've avoided adding fish back to my diet. Is the canned salmon at the vitalchoice site pretty safe? I know to look for wild salmon from Alaska, so I guess this would be it?
Mercola promotes this salmon as mercury-free (or low mercury). That's what got my attention.

Thanks again ladies in reminding me that I am not as old as the hills and maybe have a little more time than I feel like sometimes.

And on the black tea: down to 2 cups yesterday. I think I'll cut to one tomorrow and 0 on Thursday. This is a habit I am perpetually giving up.







After the miscarriage, I started right back without a thought.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Rooibos is a native tea of Africa. Every country or region has its native plant that can offer the vitamins and minerals one needs to survive. Africa has rooibos.

Here is a link to a little bit of information on this herb/tea. I use it as a base in mineral rich teas. For minerals I use herbs like irish moss, nettle leaf, kelp, dulse, yellowdock root, dandelion root, comfrey root (I know the contraversy, I choose to use it internally







) P'au D'arco and others.

The link: http://www.africantea.com/Rooibos-He...os-health.html

The method of extraction for herbals is the key to retrieving the vital minerals and nutrients. Some cannot be extracted in h20, some need a stronger menstrum.

Hope that helps you out and the link works!








s to you Amanda








everyone


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Here is another option to balanced depleted mineral loads.

I have been using this product all the way through my pregnancy, postpartum, breastfeeding and extended breastfeeding. Dd is about three now and when she feeds I can really feel it in my body. I will have a scoop of this and immediately feel better, in fact on days when I am a bit blue, if I take the mineral powder I immediately feel happier.

Here is the link:

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals....neral_whey.asp

Hope that helps


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

mountain mom, that mineral whey looks really good. i am currently trying to deal with a zinc deficiency. didn't know i had it until i started a course of treatment with a chiro/cranial-sacral/applied kinesiologst (!). Apparently I am fairly deficient, but not critical. However, I do get the white spots on my nails, which is the sign of z.d. has anyone else dealt with this? i feel like i eat zinc-rich foods, but there are large intestianl issues that we are working on and hopefuly that will help my body better absorb. oh, and more water. always more water.

xenobyte- did you get my pm about the kefir grains?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm writing about the tea for Gale Force. A tea I've really enjoyed around here is Tibetan Buttered Tea. Its a tea that tibetans drink w/ meals. Its usually made with black tea but I think you could have success with other types of teas. I usually have it with a spiced tea and butter. They also add a bit of salt to the tea. It seems to me if you made a spiced tea with some of the other herbs discussed above you might have good results.

I know that buttered tea is not for everyone, my husband almost yaks (haha) everytime he sees me drink it. I think its very yummy. It is said that it helps with meat digestion.

To make it you just add some butter and salt (w/ the celtic salt you can get a little more mineral in your tea, yay!) and you need to blend it. They have a little gadget that churns but I use the blender (just be really careful blending such hot liquid, I once exploded it everywhere).

Anyway, I'll probablly mess around w/ some caffeine free versions since I'm still trying to kick my caffeine habit (she says as she sucks down some chai).


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer*
xenobyte- did you get my pm about the kefir grains?

Yes, sorry. I have been distracted last couple days. I was about to reply to it! So look for an answer tonight.


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

Amanda,







to you. I understand the toll and energy children have on our bodies even without PPD issues.

We planned to TTC #2 when DD turned 2 but I feel like I'm just getting back to normal after her birth and continuing BF'ing. That canned salmon sounds great. I went to buy some frozen last week but it was no longer stocked at the store I've been buying it from.







:

Mountain mom, that mineral whey sounds really interesting- I just bookmarked that website last week to get some coconut oil- sounds like I need to put in an order! Isn't the internet awesome?

I definitely noticed feeling full longer and losing several stubborn pounds this summer, after I started cooking in coconut oil and switching to regular fat, non-homogenized milk. I also went to the gym, though somewhat sporadically. I also tried to cut down on breads and crackers. I've been backsliding lately though.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks for those links mountain mom, they look very interesting.

hrheka -- I've never heard of that tea before either. I will look into it and into the herbs mountain mom suggested.

This is a great bunch, don't you think? Thanks so much everyone.

I'm down to one cup today. We'll be out and about tomorrow and the next day so I thinK I'll keep the one cup in for those days and cut it out on Thursday.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Not to keep harping about Celestial Seasonings teas, but they have several 'rooiboos' teas now. There is a red rooiboos vanilla that is mighty tasty...caff free too.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

mountain mom - wilderness family naturals is awesome! i can't figure out what to order from them first.

another option for minerals is dolomite. sally fallon just recommended it to me. i had posted a message on a WAPF chapter leader forum i'm on about options for getting enough calcium (and other minerals) while breastfeeding.

sally said she recommends coconut milk, dolomite powder, and a little maple syrup. mix, heat through and serve. another mom on the list who's in FL said she makes the same concoction but blends it into a frapp instead. yum.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
Not to keep harping about Celestial Seasonings teas, but they have several 'rooiboos' teas now. There is a red rooiboos vanilla that is mighty tasty...caff free too.

I am not sure whether or not C.S. tea is fair traded or not but with teas such as Roobios it is very important to source them from a company who is certified fair trade. Given that roobios comes from Africa is it very important that the small farmer of this plant benefits from the first world consumption of it.

JMO, but I thought I would add a sustainable angle.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Great point about the Rooibois! I hadn't even thought about that. I should contact CS, since they are up here in Boulder and find out what their trade deal is for obtaining the leaf.

I order whole shea butter from a source that benefits the tribes 'processing' it, in Africa. So I am all for sustainable farming and income going to the people having to do all the work! Kinda why I like Tropical Traditions for my VCO.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Xenabyte,

What is VCO?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*







Xenabyte,

What is VCO?

oh, sorry, Virgin Coconut Oil! I am addicted to both their VCO AND the Expeller Pressed Coconut oil, as it's odor and flavorless and is good for making more savory foods or where you don't want a 'coconut' smell.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I've been wanting to order some VCO for a while now. I heard rumors that Tropical Traditions take a long time to ship. Is that true? Has anyone ordered VCO from wildernessfamilynaturals?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I just ordered VCO from Tropical Traditions and it took less than a week to get here. I love it! Its so tasty compared to the others I've tried. Its also a good deal. I got the gallon tub and they gave me an extra 2 quarts and free shipping, so it ended up being cheaper than the junk I was getting around here.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I've always had fast shipping with TT. I recently got one gallon of EP coconut oil, and got a gallon free! I'm Set! I also got the gallon of dried coconut and it's so tasty. Good for 'add ins'.

Plus, like you say, the flavor is so much better than what I can get at the WF market.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks.... I'll get some VCO now.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

:does the happy dance

WHOO HOOO I just got my very OWN copy of Wild Fermentations. Wow, I thought it would be a good book, but WOW it has a ton of great info!!

Just sharing the joy. I haven't gotten anything in the mail in a long time! And it was a used copy, but it's in great condition!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

WIld Fermentations is such a great read. He is an excellent writer and an interesting person. I've been trying to get everyone in the house to read it just because it's such a good read.

So, I'm officially off tea. Stopped one day early.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Speaking of Wild Fermentation...

A friend and I just made the fruit kimchi out of that book today. I'm SO excited to taste it - it smells and looks delicious. I'll be sure to post the results. This is the first time I've attempted to ferment rather than lacto-ferment!


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I just made my first batch of kefir-d'acqua. I hope I like it. The problem is, I put all my grains in it before reading on dom's site that you're supposed to save some in case something goes wrong. Whoops! Should I fish some of the grains out now? Or just keep my my fingers crossed? Also, some of the grains are floating on top while the rest are on the bottom. Is this normal? I've only done milk kefirs before so I can't tell if the grains were floating on top or down in the bottom.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Speaking of kefir - I was unable to find a local source from that link posted a long time ago - my email to the guy in Saskatoon bounced back, and I lost that link. Anyone have an idea where to get it in Canada? CJR, did you ever find it?
Good news is, we're getting very close to finding raw milk


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I think the 'Dom' says when rehydrating kefir grains, if they float, and are pink, get rid of them...but for regular grains, I've seen some float, some not. And it turns out fine. So not sure. Kefir d' Aqua is a 'lighter' medium, and I would think some could float, especially when producing 'carbon dioxide' gas and the bubble's can make stuff float.

As far as fishing someout, you know he says once you start them on the track to becoming 'aqua grains' not milk ones, you can't go back to using them in milk after a certain period of time. So they should be 'dedicated' to making only fruice juice or the 'aqua' type ferments.

I send CJR a PM asking about the grains too...if you and her both STILL need grains, I would be happy to try to get you some (cross the border). I picked up some 'Priority' shipping boxes for going from the US to Canada. If they don't get twitchy about the tiny amount of liquid (milk), then it should work.














:

Just PM me


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Hi Mamas. I've been lurking around this month's thread every now & then as I've been a bit busy. I need







My middle dd has yeast related excema. This is what originally got us NTing in the first place. It has suddenly gotten heaps worse. The skin on her face is so dry now & she is getting scaley bits around her back & arms. I am very careful about what I give her food-wsie. All organic, no junk, no sugar etc. The only thing I can think it is is the raw dairy. It always used to be OK but we had a break for a few months whilst the cows were off milking. Since we've had it back, the milk has sometimes tasted of mould. Not like sour but of mould mould. I don't know if they maybe have mouldy hay near where they milk or something. I have had her off the milk for a few days, but I am still not sure if it is the dairy or that particular dairy if that makes sense. Nowhere else to get raw milk around here either









I was sent a recipe by a NT lady for coconut milk with dolomite to substitute for milk but I have always been a bit iffy about dd & nuts as she used to react to them when she was a baby if I ate them.

I so wish I did not know the truth about soy milk!!! What I am thinking is I am going to go back to real basic simple food for her for a while. Just meat & veges really. Lots of bone broths for the calcium & some nourishing herbs teas. Anyone done this ?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OceanMomma*
I so wish I did not know the truth about soy milk!!! What I am thinking is I am going to go back to real basic simple food for her for a while. Just meat & veges really. Lots of bone broths for the calcium & some nourishing herbs teas. Anyone done this ?

I wish I didn't know about a lot of things sometimes - they say ignorance is bliss - but then that wouldn't be true happiness would it ?









I've been getting grains mostly in the form of breakfast porridge (oats or 7grain cereal) lately - usually I soak it in water with a bit of yogurt, but I have used raw apple cider vinegar instead and it was really good.

For calcium - alfalfa, nettles and red raspberry leaf are all good sources. So are sesame seeds.

I've never tried eating quite that way, but as long as you're getting lots of veggies, and try to maintain the 50% raw thing, you might as well give it a go. Every body is different, so it might be exactly what you need.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

So, since reading NT, I'm finally giving in to my cravings for saturated fat (butter, the fat on steak, etc). And my kidneys are finally feeling better!!! There was nothing wrong from an allopathic viewpoint, and I was just thinking about going to see a homeopath (recently been learning a lot about homeopathy - I'm still going to see him about other troubles) - when I realized my kidneys are better! They've been achy for 2 years at least! Yay for saturated fats!!!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Katzmama, where are you? Andrea sent me Kefir grains from Edmonton to get me started. Are you in Canada? Where did you find raw milk?

Thanks!

Also, Oceanmamma, what do you wish you didn't know about soymilk?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Katzmama, where are you? Andrea sent me Kefir grains from Edmonton to get me started. Are you in Canada? Where did you find raw milk?

Thanks!


I'm in Saskatoon, SK, Canada. Where are you? Which Andrea is in Edmonton? Shipping of stuff across the border is going to become more and more difficult with the holidays coming up, I think.
As far as finding raw milk, it helps when almost everyone around you grew up on a farm or has a family member who did - my dh's friend lives in a farming community and is putting the word out for us among those who farm organically and have cows (although he did say we might have to milk the cow ourselves - I think/hope he was joking :LOL)


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I am in Calgary. The Andrea that sent me Kefir grains is 'Andrea' (used to be Andrea88.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

MountainMom. Here is something about soy milk
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Granted it is westonprice so they may be a tad baised







But the phytic acid thing is my main problem. I also have a friend who has a friend who did research on it. Not sure what or how biased or relaible she was as I never met her. But my friend told me that women of childbearing age should never drink soy milk. Not sure about kids but I know there are big issues with soy formula. The whole eostrogenic effect bothers me for children. I mean it may be a red herring & not be an issue but my gut tells me it is wrong. Thus I would worry about my 3 1/2 yr old drinking a good 1/2litre of soy milk a day. I'm sure she would be better off with water, herb teas & bone broths.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks for the link.

We really slowed our soy consumption over the last three years to just miso soup and a soy milk that contains job's tears and barley as well. Even that milk we are only going through maybe 1.5 litres a week at the most. The milk that dd has been loving lately is amasake! Slrrrrp.

Soy has raised my red flags too...its good to have a list of data such as that link.

Thanks again.


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I have been lurking and just got the NT cook book. Now back to







:


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I saw my chiropractor last week and he poo-pooed the canned salmon. He said that with the acid levels in the fish the metal from the cans would leach into the meat. You can't catch a break around here.

He also told me that I need to eat more protein. He has told me this before and I have not ever been able to eat as much as he has recommended. But he seemed to stress its importance in my recovery. Are you ready for how much he recommends?

Hold onto your hats.

He recommends four eggs and two pounds of red meat or fish a day. I asked about poultry. He said "you'd need four pounds of that." Anyhoo, I headed back to the store and got a little more meat, but I still have yet to eat this much in any one day.

Has anyone gotten similar advice?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Amanda,
Are you supporting your kidney function throughout this program? Juniper berry, unsweetened cranberry juice, parsley root, cleavers are all helpful.

When consuming higher than 45 - 50 mg of protein a day it is vital to support the kidneys and to try and help the body remain alkaline.

take care
Colleen


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

have any of you ordered sourdough starter through carl griffiths?? if so, how do you get it going from the grain? there's recipes on the web site but they all call for sugar. i'm wondering if there's a more NT/whole food way to go about it.

tia - i'm so excited to start bread making!


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, that is a lot of meat gale force. My chiropractor also says I'm not getting enough protein. I've since added chicken broth in my diet (ovo-lacto before). I test my pH in the morning, and the days I don't eat chicken broth my pH plumets. I drink about 3 bowls of soup a day. I also eat 2 eggs a day on the average. 2 lbs of meat is a lot though!

I made some kefir d'Acqua and its so yummy.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaMAMAma*
I made some kefir d'Acqua and its so yummy.

Did you use the exact recipe. I finally found Barley Malt for it. I was going to make it tonight. Just wanted to ask you before I added in all the stuff, especially if it turned out especially tasty!

Gale, WOW, that is alot of meat/eggs. Is he basing it on any certain program, like 'Protein Power' by the Eades?

I think I'd go into Ketosis if I ate that much meat! I have a program that calculates how much protein you need to maintain or build muscle mass for your particular body (based on what is fat, and what is muscle)...it's around here somewhere....


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Gale Force:







: Holy Crap! That is a lot of meat! I am very interested in knowing if it does make a difference though, so keep us updated!

The predators have discovered our poultry flock, so we have lost 1 goose, 2 ducks, and about 5 chickens. So sad.







Sigh, the hazards of free-range birds.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Yeah, holy crap just about covers it. I am not sure what he is basing the recommendation on, I will have to ask next visit. But I just don't see how I could eat all of that, much less cook it all, much less afford it all. wow

Sorry about your birds toraji. Here in the mountains, free range is just about impossible. A neighbor does have about 60 chickens free range but they have taken over the whole place and are damaging his hillside. They do roost in coops at night and I think he locks them up to keep them safe. We've got coyotes and mountain lions around.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Xenabyte: I did 3 cups of water instead of 4 because I can't find a big enough glass container. So I adjusted the sugar accordingly. Other than that, followed the recipe and its yummy. Tastes even better the day after its done. A friend came over and tried some and she's going to try and make some too.


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## lovelee (Sep 20, 2002)

Hi all,
I'm a newbie, I just picked up the NT book this weekend, very interesting! I have a question about soaking though. I don't have a grain grinder yet and I'm wondering if soaking the grains (before I run it through my food processor) is the same as letting the flour soak? Or do I need to soak the grains before I grind them AND after??

Is soaking beneficial enough, or must they be sprouted?

Last week I was making the eziekiel bread (heather's recipe-thanks) and soaked my grains overnight then divided the batch in half. The first I ground and baked up immediately turned out wonderful and yummy.

The second I let "sit" with the water the berries they were ground in for 24 hours, I did make a small mistake, when I took off the plastic wrap it had stuck to the bread and it sank, but I baked it anyway. It was a little dense but still moist, but it tasted awful! Any particular reason you think? I tossed it out for the squirels though and it was gone in hours, amazing!

Also, how much of a "purist" do you all tend to be? I know friends that raise chickens and eggs but they aren't fed organic feed so I'm sure the meat and eggs isn't pesticide free. It's better that store bought of course but $5.00 for organic eggs is what I'd have to pay here!

Oh, and I'm going to make kefir soon. Is it still beneficial if you only have pasturised and homogenized milk to work with, from the book it seems completely useless.

One last question (for now!!) ARe there any other good cookbooks that recommend similar cooking technique??


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Ok, I've read this post three times to be sure I understand your questions and what you did with your bread...So I'm gonna break it down and try to answer best I can, repost with more questions, if I just make it more confusing..hehe









Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
Hi all,
I'm a newbie, I just picked up the NT book this weekend, very interesting! I have a question about soaking though. I don't have a grain grinder yet and I'm wondering if soaking the grains (before I run it through my food processor) is the same as letting the flour soak? Or do I need to soak the grains before I grind them AND after??

You can either
1) Grind grain into flour, and then soak it or
2) Soak your whole grains, then 'grind or proccess' and use that. No need to soak twice and if you did, I'm thinking that was what made the second batch of bread taste wierd, due to the extra long soak.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
Is soaking beneficial enough, or must they be sprouted?

*Soaking* is mainly to remove the phytic acid from the outer hulls (Bran) of your whole grains, seeds, or nuts. It helps it to be more digestable and removes the 'digestive enzyme' inhibiting effects of the acid. Enzymes are what break down your food and allows your body to absorb the nutrients from them.

*Sprouting* increases the nutritional content of said grain, seed, or nut (as they are gearing up to grow into the mature plant form). It's up to you if you like eating sprouts and want to deal with additional steps. However, when you sprout foods, though they have superior nutritional value, they also form 'irritants' as a survival process (little sprouts want a chance to grow, not be eaten by foraging animals until they can mature into an adult plant)

So if you sprout something, you might find you need to soak any flour (or mush) you make from them, as it to helps remove the NEW irritants formed, but they are different than the phytic acid found on the seed, grain and nuts outer germ.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
Last week I was making the eziekiel bread (heather's recipe-thanks) and soaked my grains overnight then divided the batch in half. The first I ground and baked up immediately turned out wonderful and yummy.

Yea, good to hear! I've always had success with that recipe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
The second I let "sit" with the water the berries they were ground in for 24 hours, I did make a small mistake, when I took off the plastic wrap it had stuck to the bread and it sank, but I baked it anyway. It was a little dense but still moist, but it tasted awful! Any particular reason you think? I tossed it out for the squirels though and it was gone in hours, amazing!

1) The second soak was not needed, and depending on what was in the water (since it got a double soak time) it probably developed some aceto bacteria (vinager) or strong alcohol content. You were on your way to making hooch...hehe Did you see drunken squirrels running around? :LOL Just kidding, they bury nuts and seeds, and eat them much later, they probably appreciated your pre-soaked and fermented grain product!









2) I hate when bread sticks. I will 'oil' plastic wrap before putting on my loaves to 'rise'. Or I use a soft kitchen towel and don't let it sit as long. Someone (sorry don't remember your name, was an older thread) had a great idea, sit them in the oven, door closed, with a pan of water under them to keep them moist while they are proofing...no cloth or plastic needed!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
Also, how much of a "purist" do you all tend to be? I know friends that raise chickens and eggs but they aren't fed organic feed so I'm sure the meat and eggs isn't pesticide free. It's better that store bought of course but $5.00 for organic eggs is what I'd have to pay here!

I will pay whatever for good eggs. It's a big thing we eat around here, ergo, I'll pay whatever. BUT I sure wish I could have my own chickens! Your friends chickens are free roaming, so they are getting access to various plants and crawly critters, so the quality of their eggs is still going to be pretty good, even if the feed isn't organic. Too bad, they are doing that, and don't go the extra step to have REALLY healthy chickens!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
Oh, and I'm going to make kefir soon. Is it still beneficial if you only have pasturised and homogenized milk to work with, from the book it seems completely useless.

I only have access to whole, organic, but pasturized and homogenized milk. It seems fine to me! The pasturization kills off bacteria, but the Kefir culture adds that back in. So no biggie there, however I do worry about the homogenization, but hope that the Kefir helps to restructure the 'fat' when forming curds and whey. I never drink milk straight up anymore (neither do my kids or dh).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellafinn*
One last question (for now!!) ARe there any other good cookbooks that recommend similar cooking technique??

Not that I've found yet. Maybe another mom has found one. I use the 'Meta Givens Encyclopedia of Cooking', circa 1950s. It has many recipes 'from scratch' and long, slow cooked foods. So I adapt most recipes.

The 'wild fermentations' book is great as a resource! Mainly you just need some good sourdough or soaked bread recipes, you have the Kefir / yogurt info from this site (ditto for the bread recipes). The only other things would be how to make some good fermented vegies and a few good how to make 'stock', which the book covers and there have been posts on that too.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

bellafinn,

Our chickens eat conventionally grown grain as well as stuff from our garden and yard. They are not free roaming right now but we have let them out here and there. The yolks are darker orange and the shells are a lot thicker than the organic eggs we buy at the store, so I expect they are better eggs. They will be better still when the chickens are eating their patches of purslane in the spring.

And your grains will be delayed a day it appears. I'll mail them tomorrow from town,

Amanda


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## lovelee (Sep 20, 2002)

Yes! That clarification helps alot, thanks!

No I didn't see any drunk squirrels, but they had two loaves gone in like an hour!! The loved it, they've been hanging around alot since, I think they're waiting for more, LOL!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
...The yolks are darker orange and the shells are a lot thicker than the organic eggs we buy at the store, so I expect they are better eggs...

Oh yes, they sound MUCH better than even store organic! I remember on the farm when I was a girl, we had a 'bug zapper' light. We hung it near the chicken coop and at night that thing was like a 'firecracker' going off all night long. In the morning, the chickens would have a literal 'feast'! Those were the BEST eggs! We didn't do organic back then either, but it was during the 70s recession and money was super tight!

Maybe you should get a bug zapper to give them lots of 'organic' bug protein! hahah

Oh also, I might be getting my hands on some REAL water kefir grains (they are REALLY hard to find and much more temperamental than regular milk ones). If they are reproducing, then we'll all have something new to play with!


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

WOW! I just made the raspberry drink from the NT cookbook & it is soooo tasty. I must say my fave part of the book is the drinks, once I reduced the salt by a teaspoon in all the recipes. anyway, I highly suggest this one, it is really yummy & refreshing. I used organic frozen raspberries & I think they worked well because when you defrost them they are already so mushy, perfect for a drink.

Anyway, how's everyone doing? Its been so quiet. We've been sticking to our diet pretty well. I've been really loving home made creme fraiche lately. My bodies been loving it too because I finally started loosing weight again. Tonight I'm making saag w/ homemade panir & a soaked chickpea steamed bread. yummy.

Hope everyone out there is good and can't wait to here some more Nt banter!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL at the bug zapper. Good idea.

On that raspberry drink -- it gets extra fizzy with age. Yumm.

And one thought on the NT drinks -- cut the salt out and put in kefir grains to culture it instead.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Gale Force, great idea with the kefir for drinks. I was going to start another one tomorrow since the raspberry drink is going fast. I'll try a batch of something with a few grains.

I made some panir tonight to go with a curry and when you finish making the cheese there is a bunch of whey leftover. Its not cultured though so not useful for soaking grains in. I'd made a lot of cheese so I had just shy of a half gallon of the stuff. So once it cooled down a bit I added a bit of yogurt and wrapped it upi with a towel and let it sit in tthe warm oven. I took it out and it seems cultured. I'm super excited because we can only eat so much yogurt cheese each week but I notice such a difference in my digestion when I soak things with the whey.

anyway, if your sick of yogurt cheese I highly suggest this as a way to get a bunch of whey and some really yummy cheese!


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Well, I know I haven't been around lately, because I was getting kind of discouraged with how little I was doing with NT, and how little I am able to do right now. So, we're supposed to be soaking FLOUR too?? I really wish I had the NT book with me. (I got mine from the library and had to give it back.) Currently, I'm making organic whole yogurt cheese. I think I let my yogurt sit out too long, and it tastes funny, plus it's a lot chunkier than before. Almost like on it's way to being cheese. So, I AM making cheese out of it. Any ideas on what I can do with it once it's done?


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
I made some panir tonight to go with a curry and when you finish making the cheese there is a bunch of whey leftover. Its not cultured though so not useful for soaking grains in.

Sorry, what is panir? Is it in NT? It's been a while since I've looked through the book







:

Why would uncultured whey not be useful for soaking grains? I thought it was just acidity that was needed for soaking -- that's why you can sub lemon juice for whey.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Panir is a kind of fresh Indian cheese. I have this great Indian cookbook that is filled with sourdough flatbreads and interesting yogurt recipes (one that uses fresh dates cooked in the milk before you make it into yogurt).

I've tried soaking grains in plain whey from cheese & lemon juice but I still get indigestion from grains prepared that way. I think that I might have a grain allergy but the grains soaked with cultured dairy like yogurt whey or kefir I digest much easier.

The cultured whey also lasts much longer in my fridge than the uncultured whey.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Can someone post how they make youghurt cheese? I read the recipe in Wild Fermentation but I want to know how all of you do it.

I love the indian spinach dish with panir. I would love to be able to make that myself. Can panir be made from youghurt?

I wanted to share this: I just made the most amazing chicken stock. After boiling the raw bones for about 4 hours I added celery, kale, a whole shwack of garlic and onion and then I added nettle, yellowdock root, wildyam root, and burdock root.

It is unreal how vibrational it is! It is cooling, after being strained out, in my fridge.

My dd, who is three, came over to the pot and exclamed, Oh mommy this is good!!

Have a good weekend all!


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

Has anyone tried making fermented carrots? I started mine 2 days ago and now they are bubbling in the jar. I don't want to poison my family!! I made my husband try a bit since I'm pregnant and didn't want to risk anything. He said they were ok, but ???

The whey I used was not completely clear...kindof cloudy looking because I probably didn't wait long enough with my buttermilk.

My in-laws are coming for lunch tomorrow. Should I risk serving them?


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chocomoto*
My in-laws are coming for lunch tomorrow. Should I risk serving them?

Depends on how much you like your ILs









Sorry, I don't have much experience. My understanding is it would be obviously nasty if something had gone wrong.

Good luck!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

chocomoto,

If they taste fine they should be fine. I just fed a batch to the chickens and all it took was a sniff to let me know. Trust me, if your husband even agreed to eat them, they are fine.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
Panir is a kind of fresh Indian cheese. I have this great Indian cookbook that is filled with sourdough flatbreads and interesting yogurt recipes (one that uses fresh dates cooked in the milk before you make it into yogurt).

I've tried soaking grains in plain whey from cheese & lemon juice but I still get indigestion from grains prepared that way. I think that I might have a grain allergy but the grains soaked with cultured dairy like yogurt whey or kefir I digest much easier.

The cultured whey also lasts much longer in my fridge than the uncultured whey.

Ah, thanks for the info.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Sorry I haven't been around...I've been stamping out the political fires on another board. Not much to report food-wise, dehydrating apples galore.

mountain mom, that soup sounds fabulous! I will have to try that.


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

:LOL I'll make sure my father-in-law gets a full serving.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Well, I made yogurt cheese, and I have some whey left over. What can I do with it? Before you guys, I would have thrown it away. But now I know it is good! But I don't know what to do with it. Help?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

My son drinks our yogurt whey, sweetened with a bit of stevia. It's very good.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I've been so busy all I've had time to do was lurk in here for awhile!

Yeah, with fermented stuff it's easy to tell if it's bad. . . whew~! You wouldn't be able to bear the smell. Lacto fermented things have a natural oder, but once you know what it is you'll also recognize it right away when you open the container.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Gale Force, thanks for the whey drink idea!! My daughter just sucked down 2 glasses after her nap, she really likes it! I still haven't found a reliable raw milk source here so I try to give her only cultured dairy and this is something she really seems to like.

I must admit that I'm a total wimp and didn't try it. You said your son likes it but do you like it? I know this is silly. I eat anything 7 everything really but I get weird about drinks, Isadora always tries them first. then, maybe a few days later I try them :LOL


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey,

Just stopping in. I use extra whey in place of water in recipes and in my soak for sourdough bread. I have drank it plain, and while it's not like my favorite green tea, it's good. I sometimes will use whey water for my smoothie. I mixed it with some organic apple juice and will drink it that way, it's REALLY refreshing that way too.

I've been having DSL connection issues, so not on as much lately. Hopefully they will get it fixed this week!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, to make the 'Kefir or Yogurt' Cheese, here is my favorite way, there are variations depending on where you read how to do it:

Make Kefir, strain out the grains.
Let this strained Kefir continue to set in refrigerator or on couinter top for another day.
This should give you really nice whey and curd seperation (which is helpful if you are using cheesecloth, and not a yogurt cheese maker, designed to strain a looser mix).

You can also let this 'strained' Kefir accumulate if you want to make a larger amount of cheese. I sometimes do it only every 3-4 days, and usually once a week for sure for our bagels and such.

I used to line a hand strainer with 5-6 layers of cheese cloth, then put it over a big bowl. I would slowly pour in the Kefir (the curdier the better) into this. Some of the Kefir 'milky' bits would get through, but usually the layers captured it pretty well. I would cover this with plastic wrap or a plate, and sit it in the fridge to drain overnight.

Now I just pour my Kefir into a 'Donvier' Yogurt Cheese Maker, put the lid on, and let it drain in the refrigerator overnight.

Next day, scoop out the 'cream cheese' and put in a glass, covered container in your refrigerator. Will keep about 1 month. If you let the whey settle a bit, you can pour off the clear part into a glass jar and keep it also. It will supposedly keep up to 6 months in the refrigerator. If you had really curdy and used the 'aged' Kefir, you might have all clear whey.









I will be posting a new chocolate cream cheese 'pudding' recipe in the 'Got Kefir' thread when the kids take a nap! MMMmmmm

P.S. I add a pinch of sea salt to the cream cheese for flavor enhancement and to add to the 'keeping' quality. I have also put in a 1/2 tsp Ms. Dash salt free, and it made it taste like herbed 'neufchatel' cheese.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Awesome! I can't wait! I made bread the other day, and tried some as a spread and it was yummy with a pinch of salt. When I made the cheese, I forgot to leave some to culture my next batch of yogurt. Could I use some of the whey for that? Or should I just start back at square one and buy some yogurt for culturing?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't know if the whey would have enough of the original culture to 're-culture' your new batch. I'd just buy another 'start' of yogurt to be safe.

I guess you _could_ try an experiment with just whey, but I'd be cautious about eating it, especially if it sets out a long time...If you don't have enough of the 'good' bacteria in the brew, then the bad ones take over pretty quickly!

Aye, nothing like some fresh hot bread slathered up with some fresh made cream cheese


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Hi everyone! We've been sick for about a month with multiple cold/ cough things. Still fighting it off.









Anyhow, the whey drink sounds wonderful, I have been kind of slacking and not making my lacto-fermented drinks and extra veggies. So we have an over-abundance of whey (from Xenabytes wonderful kefir cheese recipe! Yum Yum) I need to pick up some stevia (and liquid vitamin C







)

I know all of you will have sympathy for me. Okay, I usually will make about 4-6 loaves of bread a month, my theory is that if you're going to do, then do it good and freeze some. Okay, so I soaked my wheat like usual and punched the bread down all day. Well, because I haven't felt so well, I just took the bread out and didn't cut it open or anything. In the morning when I went to have fresh bread I found







that each loaf had a finger of raw dough in the middle. Argh!!! As charlie brown would say.


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