# What do you do when your 4-year old severely BITES a baby on her FACE for no reason?!



## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

My DD has always had issues with younger ones- I would catch her squeezing them, pushing them, etc for no reason. She never did this to her little brother though, and has never had any issue with older kids or kids her own age, and never had an issue at preschool.

Well today I had a friend over and my DD bit her 14-month old's face so bad it immediately turned black and blue







I was horrified. I had no idea what to do. She knew she did something wrong because she was sitting in the corner with her head down. I quietly brought her upstairs to her bed, and talked to her about how it was very bad to bite a baby, how much she hurt her, etc. At firat she was upset and crying, but then DD basically just got pissy, and said "I thought you were a good mommy, but now you are being a bad mommy!"









She stayed up there for about 15 minutes, then came down and was being cranky and annoying, clearly seeking attention, but refusing to apologize and showing no remorse. she eventually came out of it and started being nice, but said that she didn't feel bad about biting the baby.

WHAT DO YOU DO IN THIS SITUATION?!?!?! My husband is so desperate to spank her, but I know that will not help matters. She *generally* does not have behavior issues like this, but does seem to like to pick on babies. Which is great since I am due with one in 3 weeks :/


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

I like Barbara Coloroso's advice when your child gets physically violent, "if you hit/shove/bite... you sit". And, considering it was a playdate I would end the playdate immediately. Then I would have a long talk with DD, and we would figure out what went wrong, how to prevent it next time, and what we should do to make the little girl feel better.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I'd expect her not only to apologize, but to make amends. Give the baby something she likes or do something nice for the baby. My child would probably be put down for a nap right away too - if a child's impulse control is that poor and judgement is that poor I generally blame lack of sleep. 4yo is WAY too old to be biting people randomly, IMO. I am someone who does believe in forced apology, so YMMV.

HOWEVER, if this is something that didn't 100% surprise you, but only like 50% surprised you (which it seems may be the case) then I'll admit I think YOU should also be making amends and doing something nice for this toddler and the family. It is completely unacceptable for a kid to do that, and if you had any idea that she would do something like that she should not have been allowed to have the opportunity. I actually think that even if you didn't know your child could do such a thing you'd want to make it up to the family somehow.

Sorry, I know I sound harsh. I just imagine the little toddler being bit in the face and how I'd feel if it were my kid. 4 is not 3 or 2 - and if your child behaves at a 3 or 2 or 1 year old level then you should provide that level of supervision.

Tjej


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Honestly, I would look into counseling for her. If this is a long running problem of her hurting smaller children, there is a larger issue. I don't know what that issue might be. A four year old is CERTAINLY old enough to have the self-restraint not to bite a baby/toddler on the cheek. There was a 2yo at our playgroup who hit babies, and that was pretty awful but at 2 they really have no self-restraint or understanding of empathy. At 4 that is not an excuse.

I also agree that spanking won't work. It may not even be a job for the sort of discipline you can do: I obviously think that there should be some sort of repercussions, but it does sound like this is a larger issue. So I would seek some professional input on where she is getting these feelings about hurting younger children.

As for repercussions, I'm thinking the logical consequence for being mean to younger children is that she doesn't get taken places where younger children might be. The playground, the museum, the petting zoo, story hour, etc. Whatever it is that you guys do for fun. And certainly no more playdates with friends who have younger siblings. She can have all these privileges back when she's ready to be nice to other children.

That poor baby







Have you apologized to the family, too? That would probably be the polite thing to do.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree with lach. And OP, I know you will soon have 3 LO's but it will have to be you and your DH's responsibility to be 100% on top of your 4 year old if she is around any younger kids.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

My gut reaction to your subject line is: FREAK OUT.

Although I am a fan of handling things calmly most times, this is one time that I would personally allow my horror and upset to come through. I'm not saying I would say anything mean but I would want my child to know how completely and utterly unacceptable that is. Now that the moment's passed though, it's passed. I agree that making amends is the logical next step.

I think from now on she needs to be shadowed around younger kids. And I agree with Lach too...it may be that your daughter is an outlier for normal but I think you might need to have her evaluated.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
My gut reaction to your subject line is: FREAK OUT.

Although I am a fan of handling things calmly most times, this is one time that I would personally allow my horror and upset to come through. I'm not saying I would say anything mean but I would want my child to know how completely and utterly unacceptable that is. Now that the moment's passed though, it's passed. I agree that making amends is the logical next step.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Although I am a fan of handling things calmly most times, this is one time that I would personally allow my horror and upset to come through. I'm not saying I would say anything mean but I would want my child to know how completely and utterly unacceptable that is.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think from now on she needs to be shadowed around younger kids.

So true it nearly goes without saying. DC needs 100% supervision around young kids and I would feel obligated to tell the caregivers of kids that DC is around.

Sorry you're going through this, mama!! That must have been such a hard day. Hugs to you.


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks for the replies. I spoke with the mom of this baby several times about this, both right after the incident, and then later that evening through facebook- we are friends. She knew I was horrified, and I admitted to her that I just did not know what to do in this situation. Although she obviously wasn't happy about her baby getting hurt, she understood, and things are totally fine.

Yes, I will not leave my DD unattended with younger kids for sure. The other few times I have seen her do things to younger babies have been right in front of me- it was mostly like grabbing their hands and squeezing them too hard, or just pushing them down, which are obviously unacceptable, but I never in a MILLION years thought she would do something like this. She is normally such a sweet girl, and I know she gets very upset when her brother gets hurt- he recently burned his hand on the stove, and she started crying because she was so upset, and she held the ice pack on it for him and "mothered" him for an hour. So it isn't that she doesn't show compassion or empathy. I think she is just asserting herself as the "big kid" or something. I don't know. I am friends with someone who specializes in redirecting children's behavior, so maybe I will ask her what she thinks. Ugh, what a crappy situation.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think it is unheard of for 4 year olds to occasionally bully smaller children, which at this age means toddlers. But if you know she has this trigger she should be supervised.

I have a crystal clear memory of deliberately hurting a newborn baby when I was four. I had a new baby sister at home and knew better than to hurt her. But when I saw another newborn baby I thought he was boring and wanted to make him do something interesting. I waited for his mother to leave the room and then pinched him as hard as I could. When he started to scream his mother ran into the room and asked what happened. I lied sweetly and said I didn't know. And now I am the moderator of the GD forum, so yes this can be normal and a child can certainly outgrow it


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

My 5yo went through a very physically-aggressive phase when she was younger. It actually led to the breakup of one of my friendships, when dd (then almost 3) got really violent with my friend's 7 yo when the 7 yo was visiting my older dd.

My friend just very strongly felt that I needed to be spanking my dd, and that the ways in which I was dealing with the behavior were inadequate.

I honestly can't say that I figured out the "right" way to handle it, but dd's behavior has gradually improved with maturity. We did learn that she is sensory-seeking.

A couple of years ago we were at the playground, I can't rememember dd2's exact age, but she was running around with some other kids playing tag or something. And some teenagers had brought a baby who wasn't crawling yet, and just laid the baby on a ledge of the playground equipment while they were sitting a few feet away talking.

And I saw dd running past the spot where I knew the baby had been laid, and then I saw the baby falling to the ground just as dd went by. And I ran to dd (the teen girl had gone to scoop up the baby) and asked her if she'd pushed the baby off the ledge, and she said yes.

I definitely went through a long period of wanting to just hole up in the house with my child, I was so scared of what she might do next.

I honestly don't have answers, since as I've said it's not like I "solved" the problem, I just kind of avoided situations with other kids with my youngest until she was more able to control her impulses. I just wanted to reassure you that it seems like "forever" when we're in the midst of these stages but it does get better.


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
My gut reaction to your subject line is: FREAK OUT.

Although I am a fan of handling things calmly most times, this is one time that I would personally allow my horror and upset to come through. I'm not saying I would say anything mean but I would want my child to know how completely and utterly unacceptable that is. Now that the moment's passed though, it's passed. I agree that making amends is the logical next step.

I think from now on she needs to be shadowed around younger kids. And I agree with Lach too...it may be that your daughter is an outlier for normal but I think you might need to have her evaluated.

Yup. My thoughts exactly. It's all good to be calm, but sometimes you gotta raise the momma lion and show your true feelings. that is SO SO SO SO not o.k!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I would probably scream, "YOU MAY NEVER, EVER, EVER HURT A BABY!!!" and then sit her in a chair for a ridiculously long time.

Beyond that, if it happened more than once, she would have to stay within my reach when other kids were over for a while.


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## Jade's Mom (Aug 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amila* 
Yes, I will not leave my DD unattended with younger kids for sure. The other few times I have seen her do things to younger babies have been right in front of me- it was mostly like grabbing their hands and squeezing them too hard, or just pushing them down, which are obviously unacceptable, but I never in a MILLION years thought she would do something like this. She is normally such a sweet girl...

If she only does this when you are around, is it possible that she thinks you are paying too much attention to the babies and wants your attention? Could she be thinking these babies are taking "her" mommies attention from her and lashing out? Could you try giving her more attention when you are with younger kids so she knows she's not losing mommy's attention to the babies?


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Reading this thread reminded me of a little girl we knew. She was around four years old and it seemed that when she had an opportunity she would hurt younger children especially babies. Things like pinching, twisting, pushing. etc. At the time, parents came to know that they needed to be with their younger child if she was around. Now she is seven and is a delight. She is now very gentle and caring with younger ones.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think counselling could help, not because it's completely abnormal, but because a counselor might be able to figure out what's going through her mind as far as this goes.

I think spanking would just reinforce this behavior. Bigger people have a right to be physically aggressive with younger people. That's the opposite of the message she needs to learn. If you weren't on a GD forum, I'd wonder if spanking were the trigger of this, because it sometimes does trigger kids to become aggressive to those smaller than them.

Until she gets past it, shadow her, like the PPs said, and be prepared to leave playdates if she's having trouble any particular day.

You could also look at her diet as a possible trigger.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

She didn't do it for no reason. You are due in 3 weeks. What are you doing to get ready for the new addition? You likely can't do many of the things you did even a month ago in terms of babying her. People are very likely talking non-stop about the coming baby and asking her incessantly about becoming a big sister.

As a preventative measure, I'd start pouring on the attention now and get your husband on the same page. These are your very last few days with her all alone. I wish you and her much sweet enjoyment of that time.

You may want to tell your husband that introducing spanking at the same time you introduce a new sibling is likely to be a disaster.


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## faithsstuff (Nov 30, 2008)

*hugs* I'm sure you were shocked by this. Remember, our kids are amazing little ppl and their actions aren't always our fault.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm not exactly going through this, but my 4yo got a baby sister 4 months ago and i have seen some pretty ugly things since. For example she has only once physically hurt her sister (accidental headbutt when trying to lift her from the bouncer, though she knew not to) but she often says cruel things. Fortunately of course DD2 doesn't understand, but it's hard to hear your kid shouting "i hope you die in your SLEEP!" at your baby! I basically shower attention on the baby and ignore DD1 when she says these things. She did once deliberately throw a hard toy at the baby's head (missed thank goodness, but very narrowly) and i immediately screamed at the top of my lungs "YOU DO NOT HURT THE BABY! GET OUT! GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!" but mainly that was because as gentle as i am in FACT, i really wanted to hit her in that moment. My mama-bear came out and i had to stay away from her for 5 or so minutes to cool off. She's never done anything like it since.

Try to remember she is not you, you are not her. She's herself and making her own choices. Often those choices might be unwise and you have to guide her to better choices, but that doesn't make the poor choices your fault.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
My gut reaction to your subject line is: FREAK OUT.

Although I am a fan of handling things calmly most times, this is one time that I would personally allow my horror and upset to come through. I'm not saying I would say anything mean but I would want my child to know how completely and utterly unacceptable that is. Now that the moment's passed though, it's passed. I agree that making amends is the logical next step.

I think from now on she needs to be shadowed around younger kids. And I agree with Lach too...it may be that your daughter is an outlier for normal but I think you might need to have her evaluated.

Omygosh! I would have freaked out too.

I feel for you, because I have no idea how I would have handled that. (other than to freak out) That poor mommy of the baby. I would have cried if I were her.

Four is just too old to bite such a small child. I think I would be taking this very, very seriously, and call that mom to let her know that you are taking this seriously. Even if you don't know what to do yet, please just tell her that you are doing research and you will be dealing with this.

I would not allow your daughter to be around other small children any more until you feel like you have a handle on this. This could become a very serious problem for your family. (Imagine if it had broken the skin.. there would have been medical bills that you would have to pay)


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 









I'm not exactly going through this, but my 4yo got a baby sister 4 months ago and i have seen some pretty ugly things since. For example she has only once physically hurt her sister (accidental headbutt when trying to lift her from the bouncer, though she knew not to) but she often says cruel things. Fortunately of course DD2 doesn't understand, but it's hard to hear your kid shouting "i hope you die in your SLEEP!" at your baby! I basically shower attention on the baby and ignore DD1 when she says these things. She did once deliberately throw a hard toy at the baby's head (missed thank goodness, but very narrowly) and i immediately screamed at the top of my lungs "YOU DO NOT HURT THE BABY! GET OUT! GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!" but mainly that was because as gentle as i am in FACT, i really wanted to hit her in that moment. My mama-bear came out and i had to stay away from her for 5 or so minutes to cool off. She's never done anything like it since.

Try to remember she is not you, you are not her. She's herself and making her own choices. Often those choices might be unwise and you have to guide her to better choices, but that doesn't make the poor choices your fault.









I had something similar happen. When my youngest was about 6 weeks old I had laid him down on the floor and stepped into the kitchen. He was still in view. I was talking to my husband and our oldest, then 4, either kicked him or stepped on his stomach. He let out a bloodcurdling scream. She had never done anything like that before and hasn't since. She said she was upset because he wouldn't look at her.

I was so desperately scared that she had really hurt him and beyond any anger I've ever felt. I made my husband take her to her bedroom and keep her there for fear I would hurt her. Because in that moment I really really wanted to. I don't know how he kept his calm, but I am so glad he was home.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I cannot say what I would do, as it would violate the rules here. I really do not support spanking. But, I would go along with your husband. But the rules here say we cannot support spanking ever, so they only opinions you will get here would be not spanking.

Whatever you do, it needs to be drastic and should have been immediate.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I should add, I have/had a friend. I met her on a parenting board years ago, but not this one. She would babysit children in her home. One of the children, a little girl, would get hit and pushed by her older brother. She usually had extensive injuries on her, bruises and such, from the brother. The parents did not do enough to protect that little girl. Finally, she felt she had no choice and called CPS. CPS came out and originally said they would take the child out of the home, but then decided to do parenting classes instead. Needless to say, the children stopped coming to her home for babysitting and went elsewhere.

A week later, or so, I don't know the exact dates, the little boy shoved the little girl down such that she sustained brain injury and died a week later. The parents did not think it would come to that. I am sure the shoved and bites would not lead to this. They probably even thought it was just sibling stuff. But the little girl is dead. Even if that little boy moves on from this, he will always know he killed his little sister. Even if he is not told by the parents, it was in the news. I don't know if the details about what he did were there, but there was something in the news about it.

I am not saying it will come to this, but the wrong hit, the wrong bite, whatever, could be fatal. Plus, she could have lived and if she lived, she would have been seriously brain damaged, so there is more than just deaths. I am sure that little boy did not intend to kill his sister, but his parents did not take strong enough action against his attacks all that time.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
I'd expect her not only to apologize, but to make amends. Give the baby something she likes or do something nice for the baby. My child would probably be put down for a nap right away too - if a child's impulse control is that poor and judgement is that poor I generally blame lack of sleep. 4yo is WAY too old to be biting people randomly, IMO. I am someone who does believe in forced apology, so YMMV.

HOWEVER, if this is something that didn't 100% surprise you, but only like 50% surprised you (which it seems may be the case) then I'll admit I think YOU should also be making amends and doing something nice for this toddler and the family. It is completely unacceptable for a kid to do that, and if you had any idea that she would do something like that she should not have been allowed to have the opportunity. I actually think that even if you didn't know your child could do such a thing you'd want to make it up to the family somehow.

Sorry, I know I sound harsh. I just imagine the little toddler being bit in the face and how I'd feel if it were my kid. 4 is not 3 or 2 - and if your child behaves at a 3 or 2 or 1 year old level then you should provide that level of supervision.

Tjej

I have to agree with this. If this were my baby, I would have been horrified and never ever want to have a playdate, or friendship again. If I did continue, out of pity or whatever, and I really am not saying this to be mean, I would be quite guarded. I might only come around if you were to tell me you were having her evaluated by a psychologist and if I saw very pointed discipline limits being put.

There is no shame in having a child with special needs, if you take care of them. I have had children who have had some special needs. If she has something going on, the earlier the intervention, the better her chances will be for the long run. It is not within the range of norm for a 4 yr old to do this. I would say maybe a 2 yr old might try this, but not 4 yr old.

((((hugs)))) Please know that I know this is hard for you and you are going through a lot. I hope I have not hurt your feelings in any way. You do have my support though. I hope I have helped somewhat.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm glad you are taking this seriously! Obviously LOTS of awesome little kiddos do the occasional thing that is WAY, WAY out of line... I agree with everyone that 4 is obviously too old to be biting a baby (barring any special needs). In the moment, I probably would have really freaked out, (not a time to be sweet and understanding IMO) and my DD's fun for the day would have been OVER. In addition, (and it is certainly not too late to do this) I'd make sure that there were some consequences for this behavior. I'd have her dictate an apology to me to mail (we just did this for a friend b/c my DD "borrowed" a tiny duck without asking) AND I'd make sure that SHE knew about the next few fun things she was missing (playdates, park trips, etc- whether it was true or not) because I could not trust her around little kids-- logical consequence IMO.


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## Kuba'sMama (Oct 8, 2004)

I do agree that the behaviour was unacceptable and horrific.
I wouldn't agree that it necessarily signal special needs (unless there are other indicators). Some children are capable of feeling jealous rage to the point of not being able to control themselves, does she view younger children as competition, especially as you are expecting? I've seen my very good friend's son (also 4) bite his older brother's cheek out of frustration this summer. My dd (4 as well) will not bite others, but will attempt to bite herself when really mad.
However, since she's had prior issues with aggression towards babies, and since you are expecting I would ask my dr. for help or recommendation of a therapist. You do not want something like this happening ever again, and not to your precious new baby.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm going to be on the other side here, and say that I don't think it was THAT horrific. I guess I'd like to know more details. How big was the toddler? How mobile? How much was she getting in your dd's space?

Kids don't judge ages of other kids as well as we do. And they come in lots of different sizes. When my ds2 was about 15 months old he pushed dd's 5 yo friend off of one of those toddler slides, and she was appalled. She couldn't understand he was a baby, because he weighed as much as she did.

I DO think "freaking out" would have been a good solution, so that she would have realized that was totally out of line. But punishing and yelling beyond that probably wouldn't have helped.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP --







It breaks my heart to see some of these posts. Of course, I realize that for posters who've never dealt with a child who's crossed a line like this (and I do have one child who crossed lines like this, and her toddlerhood lasted well beyond age four, too), it's just not comprehensible.

I'd like to reassure you that if I'd been the mother of the baby who'd been bitten, I wouldn't be requiring you to do special favors for me before I could be your friend again.

Sure, I'd be extra vigilant around a child who'd bitten my baby. Sure, no mama likes to see her little one get hurt. But I'd still be your friend, for sure, and you wouldn't have to jump through any hoops to keep my friendship.









I'm reminded of the book _Mothering Your Nursing Toddler_. The author, Norma Jane Bumgarner, shared about how judgemental she'd felt toward the mother of a child who bit one of her children. Since none of her children up to that point had gone through an aggressive phase like this, she'd assumed it was a parenting problem.

Then her next child ended up going through a really aggressive phase ... not that I'd wish these difficult times on anyone. I just do sometimes wish that more folks were capable of feeling empathy for the parents of biters, hitters, shovers, and pinchers. I understand that this is kind of a tall order, though.







So we just need to support one another.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

when i was 4 i bit my older sister on the butt cheek. yeah, i chomped her butt. it was bad!

my point it its not all that abnormal. i think 4 is a trying time because they are starting to truly find themselves.

i would have her write a letter (with help) to the little one and i would restrict and 'fun' things for 4 days (because she is 4) and that seems like a good number. . she does need to understand that what she did was wrong.








s mama!


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## wanderinggypsy (Jul 26, 2005)

Sounds like too much talk and not enough action for a four year old. Also, you taking her and talking to her and explaining and whatnot is basically rewarding the behavior. Before she bit the baby your attention was diverted to your guest and the general goings on in the house. Then, your dd bit the baby and was rewarded with 15 minutes or whatever of one on one time with mom.

Like a past poster mentioned, Barbara Coloroso's "if you bite, you sit" approach is good. It's very gentle, but it cuts through the BS of sitting and talking with a child who was clearly misbehaved. Say "Because you bit, you sit". Put her in your designated spot. Turn around and stop feeding her your attention for a few minutes.

And don't get too worried about what this behavior represents in the long term. A lot of kids do things like this at her age. You can help her to get past it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I'm going to be on the other side here, and say that I don't think it was THAT horrific. I guess I'd like to know more details. How big was the toddler? How mobile? How much was she getting in your dd's space?

Kids don't judge ages of other kids as well as we do. And they come in lots of different sizes. When my ds2 was about 15 months old he pushed dd's 5 yo friend off of one of those toddler slides, and she was appalled. She couldn't understand he was a baby, because he weighed as much as she did.

I DO think "freaking out" would have been a good solution, so that she would have realized that was totally out of line. But punishing and yelling beyond that probably wouldn't have helped.

I agree with this. My dd has always found younger kids annoying and she has no patience with them. It has taken a lot of talking and telling funny stories about little kids to convince dd that they really don't think about the world like big kids do. I don't think that one bite at this age signifies anything horrible. My dd is seven and mostly very gentle and thoughtful, but she bit someone once when she was almost four, she said she didn't know why at the time, she also recently pinched someone at church a few weeks ago out of the blue and that has also not happened again. Kids sometimes do horrible and very embarassing things for odd reasons and that doesn't mean anything is wrong, it doesn't mean they need serious punishments, and it doesn't mean they need counseling. I do think you should keep a close eye on her with a third child coming because kids sometimes do odd things when their mom's are expecting.


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wanderinggypsy* 
Sounds like too much talk and not enough action for a four year old. Also, you taking her and talking to her and explaining and whatnot is basically rewarding the behavior. Before she bit the baby your attention was diverted to your guest and the general goings on in the house. Then, your dd bit the baby and was rewarded with 15 minutes or whatever of one on one time with mom.

Like a past poster mentioned, Barbara Coloroso's "if you bite, you sit" approach is good. It's very gentle, but it cuts through the BS of sitting and talking with a child who was clearly misbehaved. Say "Because you bit, you sit". Put her in your designated spot. Turn around and stop feeding her your attention for a few minutes.

I don't see how she handled it as a "reward" for the behavior. I see it more so as a means for treating her like a human being, not an object to be controlled. Also, the child is clearly seeking attention, so isolating her is not going to help...it will more than likely only add to the underlying problem.

Sometimes 4-year-olds just don't understand that what they did was wrong nor do they always feel remorse or compassion. Sometimes they are simply feeling needy and are acting out, not contemplating their actions beforehand because, well, they're little kids. I feel that aggressive behavior is a sign that they're not feeling heard or acknowledged in some way or another and they're unable to communicate these needs and feelings. I also agree with many other posters that therapy will probably help quite a bit with getting to the root of the issue (I've heard many wonderful things about art therapy for kids).

My son sometimes throws things at or near people in order to get our attention and let us know that he needs something. If we were to shun him for this or try to control his behavior then this would only make him act out more in the long run (or make him shut down internally). I feel that giving them the space to voice what they're experiencing and feeling is very helpful in honoring their needs/getting to the root of things. I've found that if I sit down with my son after he's been throwing stuff, just simply holding him and asking him questions then he will feel safe with releasing what's going on inside of him and the throwing stops. Over time, he's been throwing less and less because (I think) he's understanding more and more that he can come and tell me what's going on without having to throw and he's also simply growing out of that phase.

The bottom line is, kids just want to be heard like anyone else. They want to be seen, they want to be acknowledged, they want to be and feel loved.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

I'd like to reassure you that if I'd been the mother of the baby who'd been bitten, I wouldn't be requiring you to do special favors for me before I could be your friend again.
You can count me in too. Some of the mamas above offered some great advice. I think if you dig a little deeper you'll begin to understand the underlying problem. My own four-year-old (as mature as she would like to think she is) sometimes has problems processing and controlling her emotions. At first I thought I was doing something horribly wrong but then began to realize that there were underlying reasons. One reason we don't throw children in jail for assault is that because we have recognized as a society that children have difficulty judging between right and wrong, especially if they haven't yet learned to manage their emotions. I think in these instances it is a great learning/teaching opportunity, especially if your own reaction is that of horror, as some have mentioned above. I know that my own DD has learned valuable lessons simply by my own reaction and sadness when she does something wrong. They won't know that it is wrong if we gloss over it in any way. It is a very difficult age, and I'm experiencing some of the frustration myself. Hugs.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

She stayed up there for about 15 minutes, then came down and was being cranky and annoying, clearly seeking attention, but refusing to apologize and showing no remorse. she eventually came out of it and started being nice, but said that she didn't feel bad about biting the baby.
My child would have been taken back upstairs until they were ready to apologize.

I have 1 older sister & 2 younger brothers. When my mom was pg with my first brother I hated him. I did not see what was wrong with it being just me & my sister. Then when the baby was born & it was a BOY that made it even worse. I did not like him, I wanted him to go away. When he was 1(I was 4.5) I pushed him into the doorframe & he hit his 2 front teeth & they ended up dying. I didn't care, I wanted him to go away. When he was around 14months & put in a full body cast for hip displasia when mom left the room I'd stand him up & try to get him to walk simply because I wasn't supposed to(now I'm pretty sure my sister did too). When my mom had another baby & it was also a boy I was a little happier because that meant I didn't have to do anything with the first boy as he had his own boy to play with.

What I did & your dd did is unacceptable, but it does not mean she needs therapy or evaluation. She's 4 now & is more aware of what you having another baby means. When she was 2 & had your son she didn't have that awareness. She knows there's going to be a big change soon & is acting out becasue of it.

When she squeezes smaller kids hands she may not be aware that she is hurting them. My dd is 9 & had a friend who is quite a bit taller(seriously this kid is 5 feet tall!), she doesn't realize when she hugs her friends that she hurts them sometimes.

ETA, my brothers & I have a good relationship & have since we were younger kids. I went through a rough patch in my older teen years & took it out on them physically & they still don't hate me for it(they really should)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Just chiming back in to say that a bite from a friend's child would certainly not impact my friendship with that mama -- or that child!! I hope you know that none of the mamas who I know would never shun a mom going through a tough patch.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah, especially as there's a new baby coming any minute. I'd missed that when I responded before. That completely explains the behavior to me. My guess is that it'll die down after the baby has been around for a while. But I would not leave the older child with the baby alone for any period of time at all. There will be much jealousy.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
OP --







It breaks my heart to see some of these posts. Of course, I realize that for posters who've never dealt with a child who's crossed a line like this, it's just not comprehensible.

I'd like to reassure you that if I'd been the mother of the baby who'd been bitten, I wouldn't be requiring you to do special favors for me before I could be your friend again.

Sure, I'd be extra vigilant around a child who'd bitten my baby. Sure, no mama likes to see her little one get hurt. But I'd still be your friend, for sure, and you wouldn't have to jump through any hoops to keep my friendship.










This.

You didn't ignore what happened, or laugh it off, or minimize it. You responded the best way you knew how. Then you followed up with the mom later to make sure everything was all right.

Did you handle it the very best way ever? I have no idea. But hey, sh** happens when you have kids. I would never hold something like this against a mom because I realize that eventually, MY kid's going to be the biter.


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## Acupuncturist (Sep 25, 2010)

I have to say, the first thing that jumped out to me about this post was OP's signature and the way she describes the offending DD: "my pretty princess". I know I'm new around here and perhaps it sounds harsh, but I have noticed a disproportionate number of brats among the little girls I know who are parented as though they are "princesses". Seriously -- what do you think of when you think of a "princess"? A polite person? A considerate person? An intelligent, kind, or helpful person? Or a person who has learned to throw a fit (or bite) if she isn't the center of attention or she doesn't get her way?

It's a good thing that I am the mother of three boys, because I have no patience for divas. And I have to say, things would not be okay between me and a friend who allowed her four year old to bite my baby black and blue.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acupuncturist* 
I have to say, the first thing that jumped out to me about this post was OP's signature and the way she describes the offending DD: "my pretty princess". I know I'm new around here and perhaps it sounds harsh, but I have noticed a disproportionate number of brats among the little girls I know who are parented as though they are "princesses". Seriously -- what do you think of when you think of a "princess"? A polite person? A considerate person? An intelligent, kind, or helpful person? Or a person who has learned to throw a fit (or bite) if she isn't the center of attention or she doesn't get her way?

It's a good thing that I am the mother of three boys, because I have no patience for divas. And I have to say, things would not be okay between me and a friend who allowed her four year old to bite my baby black and blue.

Aww.. that's not true at all. A girl who likes to be pretty or princessy is not bratty. This little girl isn't bratty. She did something very wrong, but it has nothing to do with mom's description of her. This child was held accountable. Mom never once tried to make up an excuse for her. She didn't ALLOW it.

I LOVE princess stuff. I'd wear a sparlkley tutu and carry a magic wand if I didn't think I'd look like an idiot. I love that she's a pretty princess!


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## Acupuncturist (Sep 25, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
This little girl isn't bratty. She did something very wrong, but it has nothing to do with mom's description of her. This child was held accountable. Mom never once tried to make up an excuse for her. She didn't ALLOW it.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't see in the original post where the little girl was held accountable. OP states:

_"She knew she did something wrong because she was sitting in the corner with her head down. I quietly brought her upstairs to her bed, and talked to her about how it was very bad to bite a baby, how much she hurt her, etc. At firat she was upset and crying, but then DD basically just got pissy, and said "I thought you were a good mommy, but now you are being a bad mommy!"

She stayed up there for about 15 minutes, then came down and was being cranky and annoying, clearly seeking attention, but refusing to apologize and showing no remorse. she eventually came out of it and started being nice, but said that she didn't feel bad about biting the baby."_

This is not accountability. It is permissiveness. I do not have perfect kids and I know what it's like to be the parent of the biter -- I speak from the experience of having had two kids (my twins) who went through a bad biting phase (when they were 18 months old). My husband is a professor of child development at a major university and we have done our best to provide our kids with consequences that mimic what they will experience in the real world (as appropriate to their age, of course). When you do socially unacceptable things like bite, people are don't like it and don't want to be your friend. For a two year old this means using an angry mommy voice and removing the child from the play date for a period of time. For a four year old this means putting on a show of being absolutely horrified and certainly not allowing the child to rejoin the social occasion that day.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acupuncturist* 
I'm sorry, I guess I don't see in the original post where the little girl was held accountable. OP states:

_"She knew she did something wrong because she was sitting in the corner with her head down. I quietly brought her upstairs to her bed, and talked to her about how it was very bad to bite a baby, how much she hurt her, etc. At firat she was upset and crying, but then DD basically just got pissy, and said "I thought you were a good mommy, but now you are being a bad mommy!"

She stayed up there for about 15 minutes, then came down and was being cranky and annoying, clearly seeking attention, but refusing to apologize and showing no remorse. she eventually came out of it and started being nice, but said that she didn't feel bad about biting the baby."_

This is not accountability. It is permissiveness. I do not have perfect kids and I know what it's like to be the parent of the biter -- I speak from the experience of having had two kids (my twins) who went through a bad biting phase (when they were 18 months old). My husband is a professor of child development at a major university and we have done our best to provide our kids with consequences that mimic what they will experience in the real world (as appropriate to their age, of course). When you do socially unacceptable things like bite, people are don't like it and don't want to be your friend. For a two year old this means using an angry mommy voice and removing the child from the play date for a period of time. For a four year old this means putting on a show of being absolutely horrified and certainly not allowing the child to rejoin the social occasion that day.

I'm sorry, but I agree with the above post.

I think the princess thing is a bit of a stretch, fwiw.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acupuncturist* 
I have to say, the first thing that jumped out to me about this post was OP's signature and the way she describes the offending DD: "my pretty princess". I know I'm new around here and perhaps it sounds harsh, but I have noticed a disproportionate number of brats among the little girls I know who are parented as though they are "princesses". Seriously -- what do you think of when you think of a "princess"? A polite person? A considerate person? An intelligent, kind, or helpful person? Or a person who has learned to throw a fit (or bite) if she isn't the center of attention or she doesn't get her way?

It's a good thing that I am the mother of three boys, because I have no patience for divas. And I have to say, things would not be okay between me and a friend who allowed her four year old to bite my baby black and blue.

The leap from "pretty princess" to "diva" is very judgmental, unsubstantiated and completely off-topic.

OP- do you feel that you parent "permissively"? Or do you have clear rules and guidelines for your 4 yr old? I have a 4.5 yr old and while I tend to lean towards permissiveness, I recognize that his behavior improves with clear expectations and consequences (no means no, etc.).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Those of you who are dawging princesses really need to watch, "The Princess Protection Program." Also, "The Princess Diaries."

I mean, if the OP put "crunchy mom" in her siggy would you assume that _this_ was the cause of the biting? The poor kid just needs more Micky D's and then she won't bite?

Or if she put "AP mama" or "breastfeeding mom" (for all I know she may have, 'cause I can't remember), would you be saying it must be all the breastmilk she got during those early formative years?

OP, I still think you're doing a great job.









I guess there really are a few folks out there who would dis another mama over this, but rest assured there are many of us who would stand by you! Many of us know that we'll need our friends to stand by us, many times.

I suppose it's natural to look for ways to blame the OP about the incident. After all, we live in a rather blaming society, with all kinds of lawsuits and all kinds of bending-over-backward to avoid getting blamed for something. It can be really hard to avoid being blame-and-shame focused and to choose the path of understanding and empathy instead.

But I believe the OP will be really glad she chose the higher road. OP, I hope you're giving your little princess lots of love and cuddling, and just enjoying these precious days before your new little one arrives!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acupuncturist* 
I know I'm new around here

Yes, new. MDC is a great place to come for support. If you read through the thread you will see that lots of mamas gave similar practical advice as you gave. The OP replied that she is going to get some additional help.

If I were you I would have mentioned that I agreed with some of the PP (previous posters) and checked to see how the OP was going with the extra help.

If I really felt the princess thing was super important I may have asked the OP for more info about that word in their family or gently suggested that she consider the implications of that word and why you feel that way.

I think the GD (gentle discipline) forum is a great place to practice GD!!!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbow_mandala* 
I don't see how she handled it as a "reward" for the behavior. I see it more so as a means for treating her like a human being, not an object to be controlled. *Also, the child is clearly seeking attention, so isolating her is not going to help...it will more than likely only add to the underlying problem.*

Sometimes 4-year-olds just don't understand that what they did was wrong nor do they always feel remorse or compassion. Sometimes they are simply feeling needy and are acting out, not contemplating their actions beforehand because, well, they're little kids. I feel that aggressive behavior is a sign that they're not feeling heard or acknowledged in some way or another and they're unable to communicate these needs and feelings. I also agree with many other posters that therapy will probably help quite a bit with getting to the root of the issue (I've heard many wonderful things about art therapy for kids).

My son sometimes throws things at or near people in order to get our attention and let us know that he needs something. If we were to shun him for this or try to control his behavior then this would only make him act out more in the long run (or make him shut down internally). I feel that giving them the space to voice what they're experiencing and feeling is very helpful in honoring their needs/getting to the root of things. I've found that if I sit down with my son after he's been throwing stuff, just simply holding him and asking him questions then he will feel safe with releasing what's going on inside of him and the throwing stops. Over time, he's been throwing less and less because (I think) he's understanding more and more that he can come and tell me what's going on without having to throw and he's also simply growing out of that phase.

The bottom line is, kids just want to be heard like anyone else. They want to be seen, they want to be acknowledged, they want to be and feel loved.

My problem with the bolded is that the OP was giving positive attention to the negative behavior. If you say, "Because you bit, you sit" and then make sure they stay sitting for a few minutes, its paying less attention to negative behavior. When children are given attention (any kind) for negative behavior, they continue to do it. They need to be given positive attention when they do positive things, and realize that when they do negative things they don't get attention, and there are consequences.


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## aihley (Dec 28, 2009)

The action, to me, reads as aggression. Now, aggression is a perfectly normal human behavior but it needs to be carefully directed. I think the stress and inevitable reduction in attention that is happening and which is going to likely increase when the new little one moves in is elevating her need to express her aggression and reducing her impulse control. Having aggressive feelings in no way means she is unloving or mean or incapable of very tender acts of empathy you described with her younger sibling. Is there some way she can get out her aggressive impulses in a way that is not harmful to others? A karate class, perhaps? A punching bag?

Therapy does not indicate something is horribly wrong with your child and it is a travesty that it is not more widely available. Therapy will most likely help her tremendously and would likely help any child whether there is an identified "problem" or not. We're not saying your child is "broken" by saying she needs therapy, merely that she needs someone (preferably experienced in the field) to help her process her emotions and provide both of you with acceptable, alternative outlets for her aggression.

I would also wonder if perhaps she has realized (probably unconsciously) that saying she is not remorseful garners her more of your coveted attention. I'm guessing that, in the past, a "talk" about what she did wrong usually ends when she acknowledges the appropriate feelings of sorrow and remorse and promises not to do it again - she doesn't seem to want that attention to end so it follows that if she refuses to express the statements you want her to, you will continue talking with her about it. I would see what happens if you ignore her negative statements (as they likely do not represent her actual feelings) and reward, with one-on-one attention, acts and statements of empathy.

I'm so sorry you are both going through this, it is clearly a stressful and emotional time for both you and your DD.


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