# "The only difference between a boy and a girl is a penis."



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Would you say that? Would you correct someone who said it?

The mother of one of my Girl Scouts said this is an often-used line in their family, after I looked surprised when she quoted her 4-year-old son as having said it when arguing that he should be allowed to join the Girl Scouts.









It wouldn't bother me if they said, "The only difference between a boy and girl is anatomy." or something like that. What bothers me is that this sounds as if girls, instead of a penis, just have nothing. Girls' parts are important too!

It's been a few weeks since I heard this, and it kept bugging me, so I told my partner about it, and he







thinks it is astoundingly sexist.

What do you think?


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## akwifeandmomma (Aug 13, 2005)

No, I wouldn't say it, and I would probably respond with something along the lines of, "Not true at all, the differences between boys and girls are varied and many, anatomy is only the most basic."

Weird.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

I don't feel that is true at all. There are psychological differences as well. I think I would have said "I don't feel that's true...." And explained my opinions and such.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

"Not true at all, the differences between boys and girls are varied and many, anatomy is only the most basic."
That's along the lines of what I was thinking.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Oh, yeah, I think there are some other differences between the sexes than anatomy (that's why I'm a GIRL Scout leader and not with some co-ed group) but they're more debatable.

But EVEN IF someone wants to say it's just anatomy, the penis is not the only part that's different! That's what gets me. It's like saying the penis is the only important part, and that whole business of being able to grow a new person inside your body is just nothing...or, conversely, the ONLY difference is a penis and you can hear from my dismissive tone that a penis is not important or respectable or special. Weird.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I remember saying this myself - when I was in first grade. Had similar intentions, too. I must have been awfully vague on anatomy. I'm kind of horrified that I ever had this perspective (if you can call it that ... since it's kind of "non-perspective").

I consider that a value of second-wave feminism. The idea was that males and females are "the same." We apparently needed to be the same to be equal. I don't blame feminism; I can see how that might have been a necessary step.

As for seeing boys as "having a penis" and girls "not," that's just old-fashioned or something. A penis (and testicles) are really obvious anatomy, but clitoris and labia minora and vagina require some study to see/discover. At first grade I probably never really looked around, and my mother never gave me even a brief tour. I probably also already internalized the idea that I was "dirty down there" or something (though I don't recall my mother ever saying or suggesting this). So now you have a recipe for ignorance.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

While it obviously isn't strictly true (and I think "the only difference between boys and girls is a vagina" would be more accurate, since the clitoris is analogous to the penis) I think the point is not to be sexist or anything, but rather the opposite.

It probably originated when the girl was told she can't (play with trucks/play football/be president) or other such sexism.

I see it as a simplified way of telling children that boys and girls are equal.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

totally *not* true and very simplistic. i would correct her. that statement is dismissive to both boys and girls.

there is a book called As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto about a boy who was injured during a botched circ and his parents/doctors tried to raise him as a girl. it's a very sad true story. it was required reading in a gender studies class i took. check it out if you get the chance.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Anything that simplifies that much is just...well silly. Would you say, "the only difference between a boy and a lamp post is a penis?" Not exactuly the same, but it isn't true.

People vary so much from one individual to the next, but there are general differences between boys and girls. I'm the mama of two boys and a girl, and her brothers are alike in development/ certain characteristics that are very difference from their sister. And my two boys have VERY different personalities...

And I was a major tomboy growing up, but my brother and I still had major differences in perspective/how we related to other people and different situations.

Generalizations are just that, very general... but there is a lot more to a boy being a unique individual and it isn't just having a penis.... Why reduce a little boy to one body part?

IS the only difference between a man and a woman his mustache?


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I wouldn't say it.

I guess it depends on how it is being used if I would feel the need to correct it.

If it is being used to say boys and girls are equally capable of participating in an activity, playing with a toy or having emotions then I would clarify that and agree.

That is different from saying that boys and girls are exactly the same in all ways except for genitalia. It isn't true and should be corrected.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

there is a book called As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto about a boy who was injured during a botched circ and his parents/doctors tried to raise him as a girl.








I have read it. It's horrifying, and it was the first step in my being really opposed to circ instead of just, "Meh, why bother with surgery?" The really scary thing is that, less than a decade before that book was published, my college developmental psych text cited that boy as an example of how gender is all about socialization...because the authors had heard only from "her" doctors about how it all worked out great.







:

Quote:

Would you say, "the only difference between a boy and a lamp post is a penis?"








That sounds just like something my high school best friend would've said during her "guys are useless except for sex" phase!


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
totally *not* true and very simplistic. i would correct her. that statement is dismissive to both boys and girls.

there is a book called As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto about a boy who was injured during a botched circ and his parents/doctors tried to raise him as a girl. it's a very sad true story. it was required reading in a gender studies class i took. check it out if you get the chance.

That is so messed up.









It illustrates the point, though, the being a boy involves more than just having a penis. Just as being a girl involves more than just a lack of a penis.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I'm actually reading a book right now called Why Gender Matters that discusses other physiological differences between the genders. Things like hearing ability, location of different aspects of the brain, etc. It references the David Reimer case frequently as well.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

Apart from anatomy it gets complicated. I've read that boys and girls use their brains differently, that has actually been studied. However, 20% of boys use their brains like girls and 20% of girls use their brains like boys. (This is not related to ****/hetero -sexualitiy).


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

"The only difference between a boy and a girl is anatomy" would not bug me. (I'm not a gender essentialist, so although there _are_ "differences", they're along the lines of overlapping bell curves, not absolute differences.) "The only difference beween a boy and a girl is a penis" would bug the BEJEEBUZ out of me, and I would absolutely correct it. Kind of like "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina." Drives me insane. The female analog to the penis is the _clitoris_. Vulva would also be acceptable.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
"The only difference between a boy and a girl is anatomy" would not bug me. (I'm not a gender essentialist, so although there _are_ "differences", they're along the lines of overlapping bell curves, not absolute differences.) "The only difference beween a boy and a girl is a penis" would bug the BEJEEBUZ out of me...

This.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

There is a lot more to gender than anatomy. I think that the woman's intent is probably to promote equality between the sexes - to try to break down the barriers that exist. That would be something I would approve of; however I think it's quite poorly worded to sound almost back-handedly sexist without meaning to be.

I've just heard so many awful, demeaning, and/or controlling things said to children to keep them in the gender stereotype that this wouldn't bother me at all. At least she's trying.

Perhaps the next time she says it, cheerfully agree with her to your child, in her hearing: "Did you hear that, Dc? Boys and girls are the same except for their anatomy!" she will probably feel pleased at the approval, and also she might prefer the words you used and either consciously or subconsciously take it on as her own phrasing. You remain positive and nonconfrotnational in front of your child while still being authentic to yourself.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Though I would be more likely to say that the only difference between a boy and a girl is genitalia, I probably wouldn't over-think a statement like you posted -- I would just be pleased to find another parent who agrees that genitals are the only difference between boys and girls.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

If that were true, there would be no such thing as transgendered people.









That being said, I think there can be just as much difference between boy A and boy B as there is between boy A and girl A. I prefer to see people as individuals because what's between their legs really doesn't guarantee anything.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

I would be annoyed too. Statements like this are hurting men/women relations just like "the only difference between races is the colour of skin" is hurting race relations.







: There is more to it then that! I'm not a man without a penis, I'm a woman, a totally separate thing!

It does sound like something a sexist would come up with to "show" they weren't sexist. KWIM?


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I probably shouldn't get in to this, but a woman is NOT a totally separate thing from a man. They are both human mammals, and are fundamentally _the same_. There are a couple absolute anatomical differences, and many overlapping-bell-curve tendencies to be slightly different, but basically, we're the same. A female human is more like a male human than she is like a female chimpanzee, even if with the chimp she has a few characteristics in common that they both don't share with the males.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I probably shouldn't get in to this, but a woman is NOT a totally separate thing from a man. They are both human mammals, and are fundamentally _the same_. There are a couple absolute anatomical differences, and many overlapping-bell-curve tendencies to be slightly different, but basically, we're the same. A female human is more like a male human than she is like a female chimpanzee, even if with the chimp she has a few characteristics in common that they both don't share with the males.

we will have to agree to disagree. Depending on 'how big a ruler you use' to measure differenced, Women are vastly different then men. If you look at the grand scheme of the universe, we are related to every spec of life on this rock, if you narrow the field, women are different then men, we are not a homogeneous mix of humans, we are men and women, and other because there always has to be an other! I will give you that gender is a spectrum, but as a generality, we cluster on the "men" and "women" sides. Not to many humans hanging out in the middle.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I think I would just smile and nod.

If I jumped in every possible argument I came across at kids events I would never be invited anywhere.







:


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
we will have to agree to disagree. Depending on 'how big a ruler you use' to measure differenced, Women are vastly different then men. If you look at the grand scheme of the universe, we are related to every spec of life on this rock, if you narrow the field, women are different then men, we are not a homogeneous mix of humans, we are men and women, and other because there always has to be an other! I will give you that gender is a spectrum, but as a generality, we cluster on the "men" and "women" sides. Not to many humans hanging out in the middle.

You're serious? You really think female humans are more similar to female chimps than male humans?


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
While it obviously isn't strictly true (and I think "the only difference between boys and girls is a vagina" would be more accurate, since the clitoris is analogous to the penis) I think the point is not to be sexist or anything, but rather the opposite.

It probably originated when the girl was told she can't (play with trucks/play football/be president) or other such sexism.

I see it as a simplified way of telling children that boys and girls are equal.

That's also how I see it. I am an female electrical engineer and I am happy with statements to young childeren that there are only anatomical differences between boys and girls. It leaves IMO much more room to discover your own personality/interests. Other typical male/female features are much more vague, and also a single female can have more in common with a certain male than with the average female.

Carma

ps. To OP: I agree with your point that a penis is not the only difference. But my 3yo DD discovered her vagina, my breasts, she sees her dad and brother naked. She is figuring it out fine.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
You're serious? You really think female humans are more similar to female chimps than male humans?

I never said that.
It was used as an analogy, but not by me.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Would you say that? Would you correct someone who said it?

The mother of one of my Girl Scouts said this is an often-used line in their family, after I looked surprised when she quoted her 4-year-old son as having said it when arguing that he should be allowed to join the Girl Scouts.









It wouldn't bother me if they said, "The only difference between a boy and girl is anatomy." or something like that. What bothers me is that this sounds as if girls, instead of a penis, just have nothing. Girls' parts are important too!

It's been a few weeks since I heard this, and it kept bugging me, so I told my partner about it, and he







thinks it is astoundingly sexist.

What do you think?

I agree. I hate the way it is commonly phrased about girls lacking a penis.

I do think that most differences between the sexes are more to do with personality and socialization than anything else.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't like the way it was phrased, but I'm guessing it was used in an attempt to say, "You are not limited by your gender" or something. I agree with that sentiment.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I probably shouldn't get in to this, but a woman is NOT a totally separate thing from a man. They are both human mammals, and are fundamentally _the same_. There are a couple absolute anatomical differences, and many overlapping-bell-curve tendencies to be slightly different, but basically, we're the same. A female human is more like a male human than she is like a female chimpanzee, even if with the chimp she has a few characteristics in common that they both don't share with the males.









:


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't like the way it was phrased, but I'm guessing it was used in an attempt to say, "You are not limited by your gender" or something. I agree with that sentiment.









:
I would extend it to include that men are not the "bar" and women meet it, so they are 'ok'
that's the undertone I get, and I don't like it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

She probably used the word penis instead of anatomy because she has a boy and that is more relevant to him. I agree with the spirit of this though, especially for young children. It frustrates me when people categorize activities and games as boy games and boy activities because my daughter enjoys those activities just as much as she enjoys some of the activities normally refered to as girl activities. She also has a friend who is a boy who is the same way with "girl activities."
Gender is socialized and a choice that should be respected whether it is a boy wanting to consider himself a girl or a girl wanting to consider herself a boy. At school dd gets a lot of pressure to conform to a role and activities she isn't comfortable with, she tells me that she wants to be on the boy team but her friends who are girls tease her about it. She thinks the boys get to have more fun and it really seems like she is right because physical activity is not encouraged much in girls. Activities shouldn't be segregated and girls shouldn't have to hide what they like. An activity is an activity, a color is a color, and who we are as people is a choice that should be respected.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I wouldn't be offended or argue but I do disagree with the statement.

My 19 month old has started noticing that girls' penis's are 'gone'. I tell him 'girls' have vaginas' because I don't want him to think that boys have something that is 'missing' on girls. It starts young.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

The statement bothers me slightly for the same reason it bothers the OP - it makes it sound like boys have a penis and girls have nothing. Other than that, I have no problem with it. The other non-anatomical differences some people are mentioning are average differences seen only when comparing large groups of males and females, not differences that are guaranteed to be seen between any boy and any girl. If you take any randomly selected boy and randomly selected girl, the only difference you can be sure about is anatomical. You can't tell just based on their genders which one is more nurturing, more physically active, better at math, etc.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Just for the record, men and women both have 46 chromosomes. There is one sex chromosome that is different in men and women -- the only absolute genetic difference between an XX woman and an XY man (there are lots of other genetic and non genetic variations of men and women, but those are the "defaults" so to speak). So doing rough genetic mathematics, we are 97.8% the same.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
I never said that.
It was used as an analogy, but not by me.

Huh? A poster said that female humans were more similar to male humans than female chimps. You quoted that, and said you disagreed.

No, you were not the one who originally used the analogy but you said you disagreed with it.

So DO you feel that female humans are more similar to female chimps than male humans? And if so.... how? And if not.... why did you say you disagreed with the poster?

Is it possible you quoted the wrong post? Because I'm really confused as to how you're saying that you didn't use the analogy - since it doesn't matter, you disagreed with the analogy, and that's what I was responding to.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Huh? A poster said that female humans were more similar to male humans than female chimps. You quoted that, and said you disagreed.

i did take the whole post, I mostly disagreed with "a woman is NOT a totally separate thing from a man"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
So DO you feel that female humans are more similar to female chimps than male humans? And if so.... how? And if not.... why did you say you disagreed with the poster?

I feel that when you look at genetics, chromosomes, number of bones, musle structure, etc, you are missing a very large part of the picture of what makes a man and a woman and *how they are viewed in society*

I don't think that a human female is more like a chimpanzee female. I don't even feel that this is part of the argument. This is extemporaneous information.

I think some of us are approaching this statement physiologically and some psychologically. Yes physically men and women are alike, but why are more men OCD then women? More women caregivers then men? Some of this can be explained by environment, but not all of it. I think that the uniqueness of men and women should be loved and explored and not simplified by "we're all the same, except this one piece" I feel this doesn't do any gender justice. We are just different. Not better or worse, which I think a lot of people hear when "different" is said.

also, since we're 97.8% the same, so we are 2.2% different. We are also 2% different then chimps. 2% is 15 million changes in our genome (human to ape) If you change 2% of someones genetics (not to mention 2% of enviroment) the differences would me ENORMOUS!

heres my source for the 15 mil #


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
She probably used the word penis instead of anatomy because she has a boy and that is more relevant to him. I agree with the spirit of this though, especially for young children.


ITA. This was not a conversation meant to dig into deep issues of gender and equality. It was a simple explanation for a male child. Maybe that explanation satisfied the child's curiosity, so the mom never felt the need to get into it further?

For my 3.5 year old, the explanation that girls' "peepees" and boys' "peepees" are different is enough. Oh, and everyone has nipples except for mommies, they have nursies. I'm not going to get into a discussion about the psychological and social differences between him and his sister that won't mean anything to him.

(and, yes, I've tried to teach him the correct words for genitalia, but he rejects them, so "peepees" works for him)


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

I think it is very simplistic, just like saying "The only difference between girls and boys is a uterus." But I wouldn't get upset about it. I think she's probably just trying to give the message to her Girl Scouts that they can do anything they want to do and shouldn't let people tell them they can't because they are a girl.

Maybe you should come up with a statement of your own to that effect and she would start using that instead??


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
Yes physically men and women are alike, but why are more men OCD then women? More women caregivers then men? Some of this can be explained by environment, but not all of it. I think that the uniqueness of men and women should be loved and explored and not simplified by "we're all the same, except this one piece" I feel this doesn't do any gender justice. We are just different. Not better or worse, which I think a lot of people hear when "different" is said.

But we're not _all_ different in the same ways (except physically.) _All_ men do not have OCD. _All_ women are not better caregivers than _all_ men. I think the uniqueness of _each person_ should be loved and explored and not simplified by saying, "Women are this way, and men are that way."


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
But we're not _all_ different in the same ways (except physically.) _All_ men do not have OCD. _All_ women are not better caregivers than _all_ men. *I think the uniqueness of each person should be loved and explored and not simplified by saying, "Women are this way, and men are that way."*









:
I also don't think that we should be simplified down into "the same, except one piece"

One piece that not _all_ people who are "men" have. Do genitals dictate gender?


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
But we're not _all_ different in the same ways (except physically.) _All_ men do not have OCD. _All_ women are not better caregivers than _all_ men. I think the uniqueness of _each person_ should be loved and explored and not simplified by saying, "Women are this way, and men are that way."

Yup.

No one that I've seen is saying there are no differences. What I'm seeing is some people saying the only _absolute_ difference is, generally, anatomy. Everything else is variations on a theme, in which there are _on a large scale, slight differences_. Overlapping bell curves. In general, men have more upper body strength than women. But this is not an absolute difference; many women are stronger than many men. Our bell curve peeks are different; our absolute ranges or theoretical ranges really aren't. To say we are "totally separate things" is patently false. We are primarily similar; we have small variations (differences in the rates of OCD, for instance) that are true on a generalized scale, and meaningless on a personal scale, because _each person is unique_. We can identify that, in general, more women experience depression than men. But men experience depression. Women have OCD (I have mild OCD). These are not absolute differences; to paint us that way does injustice to individuals, to whom it doesn't matter that more of the "other" gender has the characteristic they have, because they have it, AND they are of their own gender. It does not make a woman less of a woman to have OCD, or to not like chick flicks, or to enjoy physical labor. If we are saying that there are _absolute_ differences between men and women, then we are saying that it _does_.


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## Contrariety (Jul 16, 2007)

I refuse to belief that after millions of years of evolution the only difference between men and women are their genitals.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

This is fascinating; I did a search on "overlapping bell curves", and the first link had this in it:

Quote:

Ask students to talk about what sorts of toys they played with when they were younger. Then pose the following question:

* If boys typically like to play with trucks rather than dolls, does that mean that no girls like to play with trucks (rather than dolls)?

Help students understand (using language appropriate for your students) that in this lesson, they'll learn about normal distribution of characteristics within groups. Tell them that they will be able to better answer the question by understanding how normal distribution graphs, sometimes called bell curves, can overlap.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

I think this is an age old question!

We can all agree that whatever the gender, we're all special!

(still don't like the genitalia based statement







)

Arwyn: you've got to pm me more about your siggy. I've been studying it trying to get something more out of it!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Neat.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

The graphic isn't loading for me, but this is also neat.

And I'll stop now, I swear.









ETA I lie. One more.

Quote:

Actually, however, the key question is not the difference in gender averages, but rather how much the bell-curves overlap. Figure 3.10 shows the data on lifting capability from the US military data. *The curves indeed overlap less than for height, but not much less - still more than 10 percent of the military women have greater lifting capacity than the lowest 10 percent of men. Recall that these data are not biological givens but reflect the influence of a culture where men try to grow up big and strong, girls thin and pretty (back in 1982).* Remember, too, that lifting capacity (part of upper-body strength) is the area of greatest gender difference among all the kinds of strength that go into combat (running, enduring fatigue, etc.). Thus, even the most pronounced gender differences regarding height and strength alike appear to show a nontrivial overlap of bell-curves, albeit nowhere near gender equality.
Sorry, this stuff fascinates me. Once I get started, it's hard to stop.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
It was a simple explanation for a male child. Maybe that explanation satisfied the child's curiosity, so the mom never felt the need to get into it further?

How is it "getting into it further" to avoid the implication that girls have nothing for genitalia? It isn't a matter of the _amount_ of information. It is a matter of whether the statement is true or false. In regard to genitalia alone, it is certainly false. Boys do not have vulvas. That is another difference.

(Not to mention that there is a complex internal female anatomy that boys don't have, and some internal male anatomy which is different from the female anatomy. And with older girls and boys, what about breasts?)

Why should a male child *ever* be taught that girls have nothing, except the absence of a penis?

I think those who have made this into an argument about non-anatomical gender differences seemed to have missed the point of the original post, which was along the lines of, should the male anatomy be used as the measuring stick against the female anatomy? It is okay to tell a child simply "boys have penises" when talking about gender differences, but not once mention the vulva?

That was the issue the OP was raising.

My answer is, I probably wouldn't have thought about it right away, but it would have bugged me later, and depending on how close this mom and I were, I might go back and say, "I've been thinking about this...what do you think about this perspective?"

_As for the slightly tangential conversation about whether there are non-anatomical differences, the study of gender (of which there are more than two) is complex and fascinating and you could spend an entire university career taking classes on the issue and still not be any more certain (believe me, I took all the classes on gender studies I could find). Actually, it is a very difficult area to research too because even among those parents who support gender equality and who wish not to burden their child with pre-conceived notions of gender identity, studies have shown that from as early as 20 minutes after the birth, parents speak (subtly but notably) differently and with different frequency to boy babies and girl babies. Some people say, "Oh, I thought boys and girls were the same until I raised both my kids the same and then my boy wanted to ___ anyway," or whatever. But the truth is, it is highly unlikely that both the boy and the girl were raised exactly the same. And even if the parents somehow managed to be different than parents in the studies out there, the child still exists within a larger society, and no child is ever fully protected from the gender differences propagated by their society. Is it nature vs. nurture? Well, the most interesting differences are cross-cultural, but many of those studies are conflicting and it is very hard to know. I suspect like all things it is too complex to boil down like that._


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:

Why should a male child ever be taught that girls have nothing, except the absence of a penis?

I think those who have made this into an argument about non-anatomical gender differences seemed to have missed the point of the original post, which was along the lines of, should the male anatomy be used as the measuring stick against the female anatomy? It is okay to tell a child simply "boys have penises" when talking about gender differences, but not once mention the vulva?
Yup yup yup.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 

Why should a male child *ever* be taught that girls have nothing, except the absence of a penis?

I think those who have made this into an argument about non-anatomical gender differences seemed to have missed the point of the original post, which was along the lines of, should the male anatomy be used as the measuring stick against the female anatomy? It is okay to tell a child simply "boys have penises" when talking about gender differences, but not once mention the vulva?

That was the issue the OP was raising.

I agree. My in laws told me how my SIL was so upset as at one point as a child because she didn't have a penis. Everyoen thought it was funny, but I think it was sad.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

When girls are told they're lacking in something, or boys are told they have something more than girls, it hurts them both. Not only is it ("the only difference between a boy and a girl is a penis") false (whether or not we get in to non-anatomical differences), it's damaging.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I love your sig btw.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Ignore the horse part. That was added by someone else.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

In the OP it seems to say that this was a 4 year old boy that said this, because he was disappointed and trying to be able to go to the girl scouts as well.

In that context, no the statement would not bother me. And since I'm not a 4 year old boy who thinks he's missing out, I wouldn't say it.

Since all my kids are now school age, we do have talks about gender differences quite a bit. Sometimes it's simplified, sometimes it's not.

But I don't know, that sounds pretty on-par for a 4 year old. How many of us have told our kids that there are no "girl toys" and "boy toys", but that both boys and girls can play with any toy? Or that it's okay to like any color you want to? By 4 many people have only discussed rudimentary physiology with their kids, so in that framework (especially for a 4 year old who's first point of reference is going to be himself), the difference between himself and a girl is "only" his penis. He sees his penis every day. Does he see a vulva on a regular basis?

To me, that's encouraging at that stage. Perhaps I'm just whacked though.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I can understand why she would say it, it would be easier to understand. But I wouldn't say it. There is more then one anatomical difference between boys and girls and I feel my children have a right to know that more then the penis is different.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I wouldn't say it, and not in that context, either.

If she were trying to encourage a daughter by saying that girls can do anything boys can do, well, maybe I'd be more likely to agree.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, there's the penis, and the vas deferens and the prostate and the testes and the scrotum, and OH, there's the ovaries and the uterus and the clitoris and the vagina, and then you add in the testosterone and estrogen differences, not to mention the psychological differences... what were you saying again?


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
that statement is dismissive to both boys and girls.

Ditto this.

There are so many differences. Wonderful differences, that really should be celebrated. Men & women, boys & girls ARE different. This doesn't mean they should have the same opportunities, or be treated with the same level of respect... they should! But being treated equally doesn't mean they are the same.

It's not fair to say they are the same, and point at anatomy as the difference.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
The mother of one of my Girl Scouts said this is an often-used line in their family, after I looked surprised when she quoted her 4-year-old son as having said it when arguing that he should be allowed to join the Girl Scouts.









Where are people getting from THIS statement in the OP, that the mother in question has never taught her son anything about female genitals or that he believes that girls have no genitals?

I think I'm missing something here.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I refuse to belief that after millions of years of evolution the only difference between men and women are their genitals.

We evolve together - evolution requires male and female to mate together and form something new between them.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

should the male anatomy be used as the measuring stick against the female anatomy? It is okay to tell a child simply "boys have penises" when talking about gender differences, but not once mention the vulva?
No and no. But at four years old, it wouldn't upset me that he only knows about his own anatomy. My younger children have only been taught about the parts that they actually possess, though they've picked stuff up in conversation.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I'm actually reading a book right now called Why Gender Matters that discusses other physiological differences between the genders. Things like hearing ability, location of different aspects of the brain, etc. It references the David Reimer case frequently as well.

That is a REALLY good book, EXCEPT for the page that talks about how you should stop breastfeeding your child on demand and place him/her in a crib so they don't manipulate you...not even sure why it's in there since it's supposed to be a book about gender (not parenting). And it's only one page, but it annoyed me!!!!







:


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

it is a really good book, we read it in a womens studys class, our prof told us to skip that page,so naturally it was the first page I read


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Clarifications:
-Yes, it was the 4-year-old who said this, as quoted by his mom.
-The mom said, "Oh, he's heard that a million times; we say it a lot in our family." So it's not HIS way of explaining the situation; it's a saying in his family, which also includes his 10-year-old sister.
-Nobody else was within earshot of our conversation, so I wasn't thinking about what to say for benefit of any children present.
-This mom is very pro-sex education (we were talking about that a different time) so I'm sure her kids do know about anatomy of both sexes, though I don't know how often her son actually sees a vulva. While they are not being TAUGHT that girls have no genitals, I feel that "The only difference between a boy and a girl is a penis" gives the impression that the penis is the only important part.
-I'm the Girl Scout leader, not this mom, so this is not a statement that has been made to the Girl Scouts.

My son, who's just a few months younger, recently informed me, "Some girls in my school have bottoms that go all the way around." I felt it was important to explain that the part in the front is not buttocks but vulva, that inside the vulva is the vagina where babies are born, and that little girls have vaginas even though they are not able to have babies yet. My son thought that was very interesting. He had previously asked about my "furry part" but I think he didn't recognize that little girls have the same part without the fur. (







"bottoms that go all the way around"







)


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
She probably used the word penis instead of anatomy because she has a boy and that is more relevant to him. I agree with the spirit of this though, especially for young children. It frustrates me when people categorize activities and games as boy games and boy activities because my daughter enjoys those activities just as much as she enjoys some of the activities normally refered to as girl activities. She also has a friend who is a boy who is the same way with "girl activities."
Gender is socialized and a choice that should be respected whether it is a boy wanting to consider himself a girl or a girl wanting to consider herself a boy. At school dd gets a lot of pressure to conform to a role and activities she isn't comfortable with, she tells me that she wants to be on the boy team but her friends who are girls tease her about it. She thinks the boys get to have more fun and it really seems like she is right because physical activity is not encouraged much in girls. Activities shouldn't be segregated and girls shouldn't have to hide what they like. An activity is an activity, a color is a color, and who we are as people is a choice that should be respected.


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