# "Newborns don't have fully developed nerve endings in the foreskin/penis" HUH?



## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Long story short, this came out of a random dr's mouth as a reason to circ a newborn as opposed to later on, because it won't "hurt as much" I guess is the reasoning. Of course, I think this is a load of bullhockey. I know I've read many times that the foreskin is chock full of nerve endings. Surely these nerves are there in utero/after birth. It just doesn't make sense! It makes about as much sense as "babies are born with fingers that don't have the nerve endings fully developed".

I'm a-googling, but a specific reference to newborns and nerve endings in the penis would be welcome.







It would really make my day to at least try to refute this.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Try here...http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm

I wonder if this doc still thinks it's okay to preform open heart surgery on un-anesthetized infants...they used to think that was fine as well.

Here is another that talks about later pain response as well:

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

This one actually discusses where that idiot got the idea:

Quote:

Paul Emil Flechsig advanced the idea that infants could not feel pain because "their nerves are not completely myelinated."
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Here is an article about a study done in 97: http://edition.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/2...on.anesthetic/


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

The classic paper that put the "newborns can't feel pain" BS to rest was:
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/

Anand KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus. New Engl J Med 1987;317(21):1321-1329.

From its conclusion:

"*Numerous lines of evidence* suggest that even in the human fetus, *pain pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain perception are well developed late in gestation*, and the neurochemical systems now known to be *associated with pain transmission and modulation are intact and functional*. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in *hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater than those observed in adult subjects.* Other responses in newborn infants are suggestive of integrated emotional and behavioral responses to pain and are *retained in memory* long enough to modify subsequent behavior patterns.

"...current knowledge suggests that *humane considerations should apply as forcefully to the care of neonates and young, nonverbal infants as they do to children and adults in similar painful and stressful situations*."

Gillian


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Wow, thank you!


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

At the very least, I have been motivated enough to start to re-save my lost intact/circ bookmarks for easier reference.







I had heard of the long held myth that infants didn't feel as much as or no pain, but hadn't looked into it before.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

All you really need to do is look and listen to an infant being circumcised to know that is totally false.

Regards


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greg B* 
All you really need to do is look and listen to an infant being circumcised to know that is totally false.

Regards

Yes, one thing I was going to point out was that why bother to use local and topical anesthetics (which seems common) if the baby isn't going to feel it or not feel it "as much"?


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

The idea that the infant penis has no feeling of pain is a hypothesis advanced in the early 20th century when the medical profession was trying to get circumcision instituted as a universal practice. There was never any research to back this wild idea up and it is clear that it was advanced to deceive parents into allowing a circumcision. Research by the AMA in the late 1990's found that infants are most sensitive to pain in the 8 weeks before and after birth and that includes the penis. After that, the pain threshold will recede the rest of their lives. That also kills the idea that during the neonatal stage is the best time because adult circumcision is "so painful." In reality, it is less painful. The only positive thing about neonatal circumcision is that the child doesn't usually remember it. If they did, I can imagine the homicide rate in the US would increase significantly. LOL!

Frank


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

Someone needs to watch a circ video!


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greg B*
All you really need to do is look and listen to an infant being circumcised to know that is totally false.

Oh, but doncha know, it's the being undressed and strapped down to the Circumstraint that they object to. The actual circ is pleasant, like being licked by kittens. Heck, babies sleep through it!

/sarcasm


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I wonder how they can rationalize the *its only because hes tied down that hes crying* crap when they dont start crying until AFTER they start cutting their penis. I've seen a few random videos like that-baby was fine, or maybe very slightly fussing, but nothing compared to the horrible screaming and the expression on their faces when the cutting starts. Poor babies









IMO babies feel ALL pain much more acutely. Besides the fact that they have all of their nerves fully functioning, whereas the older a person gets, the more nerves have died off, they also have to way to raitionalize the pain. Does that make sense? An adult can say *ok, I know this is gonna hurt a bit, but it'll be over quickly and I can handle it (or not).* A baby has no clue that they are even going to be hurt, let alone know when or if that pain will end. You can see that just from an infant having vaccines versus an older child. They scream, and continue screaming, even after the shot is over. My older kids know whats going to happen, they know its gonna hurt a bit, and even if they cry from the shot itself, they stop quickly and are just happy its over. Honestly its one of the reasons I cant do vaccines on my babies anymore-the screaming just kills me inside. I dont know how parents can listen to the crying of a circumcision. Ick.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking* 
The idea that the infant penis has no feeling of pain is a hypothesis advanced in the early 20th century when the medical profession was trying to get circumcision instituted as a universal practice. There was never any research to back this wild idea up and it is clear that it was advanced to deceive parents into allowing a circumcision. Research by the AMA in the late 1990's found that infants are most sensitive to pain in the 8 weeks before and after birth and that includes the penis. After that, the pain threshold will recede the rest of their lives. That also kills the idea that during the neonatal stage is the best time because adult circumcision is "so painful." In reality, it is less painful. The only positive thing about neonatal circumcision is that the child doesn't usually remember it. If they did, I can imagine the homicide rate in the US would increase significantly. LOL!

Frank


I read an article that spoke about the first year of life from the perspective of a baby. Apparently, many of the senses are dulled at this stage in life, for example the vision of a new born is something like us walking around with "coke bottle" glasses on. Yet the one sense that is very strong, stronger then we are older, is touch. The skin is super sensitive. I would love if every male circ supporter could feel EXACTLY what a new born boy feels during circumcision, just for 30 seconds, and see if they still support the practice after that!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
I would love if every male circ supporter could feel EXACTLY what a new born boy feels during circumcision, just for 30 seconds, and see if they still support the practice after that!


Real life experience says that they would. Muslims typically circumcise between the ages of 5 and 7 years old when they are fully cognizant of what is happening and of the pain and they carry the memory of the pain with them. Still, virtually all Muslim men are circumcised. Some African tribes circumcise and it is done in the mid to late teens. As with most of the Muslim boys, there is absolutely nothing given to attenuate the pain. These men grow up to perpetuate the same thing on their sons, often to the point of kidnapping their own children and turning them over to the circumcisers.

Frank


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## bunniemunch (May 28, 2005)

hey if that was true he just found a way to help cure paralysis


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

A ten year feels more than an adult. A five year old feels more than a ten year old. A six month old feels more than a five year old. A newborn feels more than a six month old.

A newborn is all feeling. They have not yet learned how to block feelings.

I have read a six month old fetus has a fully sensitive nervous system.

Anyone who says newborns don't have fully developed etc. is in denial.


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## tlh (Oct 10, 2007)

Any doctor that would say this is lying or needs to be educated.

But if this were true then the cutting/circumcision would stop the full development of the nerves and reduce pleasure not to mention remove the protection and function of the foreskin so it still would be no reason to do it.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *serendipity22* 
A ten year feels more than an adult. A five year old feels more than a ten year old. A six month old feels more than a five year old. A newborn feels more than a six month old.

A newborn is all feeling. They have not yet learned how to block feelings.

I have read a six month old fetus has a fully sensitive nervous system.

Anyone who says newborns don't have fully developed etc. is in denial.

I read a article on WebMD, that talked about how newborns perceive the world. Even that mainstream site said at birth all senses are dull, they have blurry vision, bad hearing, underdeveloped sense of smell, all EXCEPT touch. Babies are very touch sensitive, its how they interact with the world.

So for these babies, they cant really understand much thats going on. (thats why a parent holding and touching a newborn does so much to calm him, because its his only strong sense)

So circumcision, is almost like locking their whole reality and all they perceive in incredibly horrible pain. And they have no idea where its coming from from, or if it will ever stop.


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## bluegrassgirl (May 8, 2007)

That's a bunch of bull coming from that doctors mouth! Of course a newborn can feel if someone is slicing his foreskin off. I read that even with a anestetic, a newborn can still feel some of the procedure being done (sorta like a mom having a C-Section can still feel some pressure as the baby is being delivered). Plus, I doubt if most newborns like being strapped down with a bright light shinning over them during the whole procedure.
My Dad didn't want my brother circumcised, because at the time (1986) they didn't use numbing agents when they did the procedure, but my Mom said it would be easier for my brother to take care of that as he got older, so she had him circumcised. I honestly feel sorry that my brother had to go through that at 1 day old.

I was on this board the other day when my boyfriend came to see what I was doing and after reading some of the stuff that others wrote about not circumcising their newborns, he said that he honestly wished his parents hadn't done that to him. He didn't realize how tramuatic that is for a newborn.

Jessie


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Oh, in that case, I think I'll stick a sewing needle through the clitoral hood of my (non-existent) newborn girl, since the skins are nearly identical. Perhaps get her that clitoral piercing I've been wanting for her so she'll look all "pretty". But the male skin is different? _Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure!_







:


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