# Are We Disciplining the Creativity out of Children?



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Do you discipline your child for things you believe in, or do you sometimes discipline them for things they "should" learn according to society but not necessarily what you believe in your heart?

Ok, that wasn't very clear,,, I'll try again. For instance, if my DD stands on the coffee table, I have no problem with that. Sometimes we dance on the coffee table together (it is a very strong one, so no safety digs there please LOL). Sooooo, if I were to tell her to get off the coffee table, that would be because I would be trying to teach her that generally, society would prefer you don't stand on tables.

Moving on...we go to a friend's home, she stands on _their_ coffee table. I tell her that Jane prefers we don't stand on her table, and she gets down. We go to dinner, she attempts to move from the booth onto the table, I have the waiter tell her himself that she should get down, it isn't allowed in this restaurant. She sheepishly gets down. Therefore, I think that is more in line with reality, the real bounderies of society will be taught to them without us having to tell them not to do things if we don't really care if they do.

I have seen so many parents posts things here that I perceive as almost creative genius in the child, only to find the responses are sometimes, "perhaps you should see a psychologist". If a child doesn't behave the way we have been trained to behave, we pull them in line so they "learn" how society works. Thereby, crushing potential creative thinking. My DD wears shoes on her hands sometimes, my first thought was "why didn't I think of that?" Where my mother was like, "You can't walk in public with her shoes on her hands!" I thought that was really creative, and my mother saw it as a time to teach "conformity, society rules etc"

Am I making sense? I often don't apparently







!

I think many struggles could be avoided (and have been in my home) if we embrace children's strange ideas and see them as creative instead of going against the grain. Is it more important to a parent to teach a child "how to fit in" to society than to embrace the uninhibited ideas and innocent exploration of a child? Which ultimately, with gentle guidance, could create the next Leonardo Da Vinci (who thought extraordinarily "out of the square").

And sorry, lastly...many parents say this: "If I don't teach them this, they won't learn the bounderies of society." Which to me, is the most crippling thing to "teach" a child.

Go ahead, flame away, I'm braced and ready.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

*You will not get any flames from this mama! I very much agree with you.







The "just because you are supposed to" rules haven't ever held up for me if that is all they were about. I have shared what society generally expects of people, but I have also shared that I don't agree with a great deal of all that so... Jumping on the bed, we often did that together (well when we had a different bed. We've discussed why jumping on the ones we have no wouldn't be such a good idea and she's totally cool with it) The choice to wear a coat outside is theirs to make based on whether or not she feels she needs one, not because the world says we wears coats when it's cold. In a way, giving them control over their language (swearing ) fits in I think too, because society says that children shouldn't swear just because they are children, and I disagree etc.

I think children with different ideas, personalities, and actions are labeled (I understand that some children do have disorders that are valid... please don't misunderstand me ) more often than they are embraced and accepted just as they are, for who they are








. This is also one reason I am very against school. Blending into society has never been my goal, and it isn't my childrens either. For instance the way you handle being on the coffee table at home, and at someone else's home is just the way I would handle it. Personal freedoms and choices is something my family is *very* big on, and it is something I find many just do not understand when it comes to children*


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

In our home (our life), there are different rules for in the house (actually, very few rules in the house) than out of the house (at other homes, schools, restaurants, etc). At home, the rules are safety and kindness, with a couple added in to make sure everyone gets enough rest. That is pretty much it, so, no--I don't believe that at home we are disciplining according to society's standards. She is free to create, explore, and just be silly in our home. She has no obligation to dress at all in our home, and if she chooses to dress, she does not have to wear things any particular ("right") way. Her body, her choice.

Out of home, things get more difficult to balance. Have to consider other people's property and space, other patrons in restaurants and stores, other students in school, etc. My dd has been able to easily understand that there are differing behavioral expectations at home and away from home, so I have never felt the need to enforce the same level of "societal standards" at home (thankfully!).

A quick "for instance":
Dd likes to play rhyming games, and, at home at least, she likes the rhyming words to be mildly "naughty". It is just so much fun to rhyme words with dart (fart), shiny (heiny), and goopy (poopy). Her absolute fav is blanket (spank it







no...we have never spanked her. That is why it is so funny







). She also likes to play rhyming games at restaurants (keeps her entertained), but she knows that she can not say these "naughty" words in a restaurant. It just isn't tasteful! But she likes us to ask "What rhymes with dart?" so that she can say







and laugh









Have I missed the point completely? I guess what I am saying is that--I believe that we can allow our children room for creative freedom at home without fearing that they will not learn society's norms. And I also believe that we can teach society's norms, but put them in the proper perspective--these are what these people feel is appropriate/what is appropriate for this place, but not what is inherently "right" or "wrong".


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

no flames here either!









Quote:

I believe that we can allow our children room for creative freedom at home without fearing that they will not learn society's norms. And I also believe that we can teach society's norms, but put them in the proper perspective--these are what these people feel is appropriate/what is appropriate for this place, but not what is inherently "right" or "wrong".
yes!!! that!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I agree wholeheartedly but...as the therapist who parents are dragging their kids to- its the kids who can't adjust between the complexities of different expectations that sometimes need help. Certainly school is most often a problem, it can be a really hostile environment for creative, sensitive kids. But some kids struggle within fairly healthy boundaries and may need emotional coaching or healing help. Just like the families that post here for support, it can be helpful to get a fresh perspective. Some parents haven't worked through their own childhood well enough to parent the way they would like.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I think that a big problem is that society expects children to behave like adults, and we fail to recognize normal, age-appropriate behavior in children.

MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

They adapt the way we as adults adapt to different situations. I think we tend to underestimate the intelligence of children. Sure, they lack experience, but not necessarily intelligence. I was brought up with few limitations. I could put my feet on the table at dinner if I felt like it, for instance. At school, I quickly learned that it wasn't to be done there. And I certainly didn't need a list from my mother of all the things I'd have to change to fit in at school. Good point though.

And maybe I should have gone even deeper into what I was saying. When we put "rules" on children, even outside the home, what are they based on? As a for instance, not wearing shoes. I have spoken to a friend about this, and asked why she insists on her child wearing shoes. She said for safety at first. Then when I said, what if that wasn't an issue? She said, "well, it just doesn't look good, my son will look like we come from a poor house." Which is where I am trying to go with this.

Many of the restraints and conditions we place on children are based on other's perceptions, conformity, expectations and belief. Each one of those things worthy of a text book in themself. Each reader, as a bit of fun and inner searching, indulge me a moment. Think about one or all of these scenarios:

- your child saying "I don't like you." to a friend of yours.
- dc wearing no shoes somewhere like a mall.
- dc swearing eg, SH** or other such words.
- eating dinner using their mouth at the plate ie, no utensils, like a dog.
- eating with their fingers older than 5 years.
or any other situation where you feel uncomfortable and feel the need to show them a better way.

Have you pictured it? Ok, now, how does it feel? Do you feel ashamed of yourself, of your child? Do you feel like the whole world, or at least those near perceives you as a bad parent? When you can clearly picture the scenario, is it really important to teach them "our" way of doing things (eg, safety, hygiene), or is it purely society or belief that motivates our controlling tendencies?

Please keep in mind that I am just trying to open a channel of thought. As I search my own motivations for things, I am sharing here my journey, in a sense. It is amazing the things we can be controlling for that with deeper thought, aren't that important. As parents we often insist children not speak their mind, for instance, as it is embarrassing when they do sometimes.

Anyway, look forward to your thoughts.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

my brain is mostly dead tonight but i just wanted to put this in quickly ~ i used to see no problem w/ my son being on sturdy tables, like you, until he fell off of one and bit clear through his bottom lip + had to go to the ER.

rules are there to protect people.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

doing things in an unconventional way like wearing shoes on your hands is one thing while safety issues like running through the house with a pencil in your hand is quite another. IMO

I personally don't see the creativity of children jumping on the furniture (that's just me) but if my son wants to go shopping with only 1 shoe on or completely naked that's his choice.

So I guess I'm saying unconventional is ok by me, but I get to rate the safety aspect of it since I'm the adult/parent.

I hope that gets read the way I meant it.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"rules are there to protect people."

What about the rules that aren't?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Calm wrote:
I have spoken to a friend about this, and asked why she insists on her child wearing shoes. She said for safety at first. Then when I said, what if that wasn't an issue? She said, "well, it just doesn't look good, my son will look like we come from a poor house." Which is where I am trying to go with this.

I think this happens a lot. People wonder "but what will the neighbors think?" about many things. Perhaps it has something to do with over zealous and misguided CPS agencies or whatever that we constantly worry what is thought about our parenting, and that they might turn us in. The truth is that even though I have met (mostly online) like minded parents, I have yet to meet someone who parents exactly as I do. Which is why I don't really focus what others think much. If I let others (people we deal with in our lives anyway) beliefs dictate my parenting the kids would be in school (ick), attending conservative Christian church classes, getting spankings, being grounded, and never watching tv. They'd have a bedtime, and be forced only to eat what and when I said they could. We don't do any of that stuff though, because we feel it's not right for us. Given the above list of stuff can you tell what kind of extended family we deal with? lol....

I do guide the kids about safety now, and did much more when they were wee ones. The issues look different now of course. (I have no need to counsel my 13 yr old on why running with a pencil or paring knife is no good, but I did when he was was 4 KWIM?) Sometimes though, I think that parents squash childrens ideas just cause they don't want to deal with it (not referring to people here necessarily..) My friends little girl loved to play in water. She always wanted it to be bathtime, and would request a bath mid day or not long after she'd already had one. My friend would tell her she couldn't have one, and when I asked why she'd say it was due to the girl getting UTI from bath water. Fair enough. But when the child asked to play with water but not in it, she continued to say that it wasn't healthy. It seemed to me that she just didn't want to deal with it, and she knew that her daughter would take the warning of it not being healthy to heart and stop asking at least for a little while. Instead of supporting her daughter's water wonder she squelched it with some made up health reason.

Some rules make sense, and some just do not. Some seem to be in place just because "everyone does/nobody does" or because that is how it's always been. That doesn't work for me without a valid, make sense reason behind it. I encourage my kids to challenge such things. If we explain about respecting other peoples' space, feelings (with exceptions) and property and how behavior can be different in different places, I don't think that it's so hard to have kids be thier unique selves.

Also, my daughter did once tell a friend of mine that she (my daughter) didn't want to go to her house anymore. When my friend asked her why my daughter answered, "because you yell too much now, and your house is icky" She was 5, and it was true.







Just some more thoughts on this. I love this thread so far. Smiles


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Well, my dd, for one, challenges my requests a lot :LOL So, when they are based on my self-conciousness (rather than a true safety issue), I often have an opportunity to rethink the request and allow her the personal freedom she craves.

For instance, she will be choosing clothing, and want to wear a shirt and pants and a dress on top. And I might (unthinkingly) say, "No, dresses don't go on top of pants"--and she says "Why not?"....and then I say, "You are right, they are your clothes. Wear what you want". Frankly, I get lots of the "Oh, did dd dress herself today?" comments, and I just don't care









So, I think I see where you are coming from, Calm, and agree with you. I try to eliminate the needless power struggles from our life, and dd's questioning helps me to do that. She does, indeed, eat her pasta with her face "like a horsey eating hay" at home. But she does not eat her pasta that way in a restaurant. I guess I am lucky because dd has never had a problem adapting to the rules of differing environments.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

To clarify my position- I agree that children are wonderfully intelligent and flexible and can manage diverse expectations. I think consistancy in parenting is highly over-rated. If you are a pretty stable human being, your reactions are pretty stable. Its not like some days its ok to hit the cat and other days it isn't. They can sometimes play on the table and sometimes not. They can play on the table but if they get too wild, they are done. That is shaping behavior- we do it all day without thinking about it. We teach them how loud is too loud, how rough is too rough. There can't be rules per say.

I think kids learn the difference between mom and dad, outside and inside, home and public. And a very important part of that is learning by pushing the limits.

I believe most abusive parenting is related to parents feeling too much need to control behavior, teach them a lesson, make sure they don't get away with something, etc. Kids that get scolded, told no, limited too often just get smaller, stop reaching out, stop testing and that is the death of creativity.

Therapy is helpful for kids when they are really unable to manage those diverse expectations and more often for parents whose own childhood issues keep them from parenting from a rational, stable place.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.

From what I remember from my grad school early childhood cognitive development class, most kids are able to shift from one set of expectations to another (called framing). One set of rules at child care, another at home, some things are OK to say/do with Mama, but not with Daddy. I would guess it would be the kids who have difficulty shifting who would need more structure and consistancy with the rules
Annette


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.

That's one reason we homeschool. I don't think it's fair to expect my children to live so dividedly for long periods before they're fully able to understand the differences in expectation.

Society has the problem, not my children.

Quote:

rules are there to protect people.
from themselves, and as such there should be few.

Most of society's "rules" (such as those calm mentioned) are there for the benefit of those OTHER than the individual. We are constantly told to "live" for others. Look nice, dress snappy, etc. For who? for others!

Well I don't live for others pleasure and I don't teach my children to live for others pleasure. My kids DO walk barefoot when they wish, DO eat with their hands still, DO say "salty" words on occasion. I couldn't control it even if I wanted to, I guess their wired personalities is a blessing in disguise that way. They're certainly not the kind to let another dictate their thoughts or actions.

Rather than punish my kids who DO have difficulty transitioning, I choose to "shelter" them (as it were) so that they CAN be themselves. At some point they'll have less trouble transitioning and I won't need to shelter them as much. I really don't think its in my children's best interest to squash their natural creativity because it's distasteful to others for no good reason.

I do understand that some parents lack objectivity and stability, but I don't see that as a good argument for all parents to follow those "rules".


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

I just wanted to pop in & say thanks to all the Mom's further down the road than me for this thread. My DD's just 17 months and we don't have many rules... this is good food for thought! I was raised in a pretty strict and conservative home & I do NOT want to pass this feeling of repression onto my child! I want her to know it's ok to disagree with people and society and she can do what she knows in HER heart is right and best for her and if it doesn't work out well, her Dad & I will be there to help her figure out what to do next. I sooooo don't want her to be afraid of me like I was afraid of my parents!


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Who was going to flame you for that??

Btw,







sup:


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

Calm, as someone who has had this particular discussion with you in another thread (and appreciates your thoughts and how non-judgemental you were!), I thought about your scenarios:

Quote:

your child saying "I don't like you." to a friend of yours.
I wouldn't tell DD that she couldn't say that, but WOULD ask her right on the spot why she did. What doesn't she like? Why doesn't she like it? How did saying it make my friend feel? How would it feel if someone said that to her? At no point would I say, "We don't say that to people!" or "Don't say that, DD!," but I would want to talk right there about all the implications of it.

Quote:

dc wearing no shoes somewhere like a mall.
I would be opposed to this and wouldn't allow it. That, to me, is a safety issue. If someone dropped something glass or a pin from clothing or something like that, I'd worry. However, DD wearing boots to the mall in summer or protective-soled slippers or two different shoes -- those would be no problem, as long as she was protected.

Quote:

dc swearing eg, SH** or other such words.
This is a harder one. My first thought is that, no, this is unacceptable, even at home. Those are angry words, mostly, and not very descriptive and generally will make others around DD uncomfortable. So, it is a societal reason, for sure. I guess I'd rather teach her meaningful words for her emotions -- "I'm so angry!" or "This toy doesn't work and that's not fun!" or "You mean man!" or whatever she's trying to get across. However, those are the same standards I try to follow myself. I think I'd like some convincing from those who don't have issues with curse/foul words coming from their kids. How did you come to be ok with it?

Quote:

eating dinner using their mouth at the plate ie, no utensils, like a dog.
No problem there at home where we can change wet/dirty clothes and clean our own table. Out at a restaurant, convenience becomes an issue.

Quote:

eating with their fingers older than 5 years.
Absolutely no problem at any age, anywhere, assuming the above is not an issue (convenience of cleanup). Heck, I eat many, many things with my fingers that you're not "supposed" to.

Since my heated discussion on another thread on this issue, I've really tried to say no to a whole lot fewer things. It's very liberating when you decide to stop struggling on things that don't really matter. I am still working on how to incorporate my needs into the equation -- for example, I don't mind if she gets soaked and covered with soap suds playing in the sink if we're home for the day and have the time and ability to dry her off, but the 2 days a week I have to go to work and take her to daycare, I just don't have time for it first thing in the morning. She's upset because I say "no sink playing now, now we have to eat and get our coats on and get in the car." I have to say no sometimes, totally for my convenience. Do I count? *Should* I count? This is where I still struggle.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

a rational, stable place.
In the context of this thread, I find this comment interesting.

I was wondering if you could clarify? My interpretation of what you are saying is that some parents allow behavior that is outside of the norm because they have baggage from their past and are REACTING. That allowing their child these freedoms are not so much a conscious decision, but more an "up yours" to soceity in general, or a refection of, for lack of a better word, deficiencies in their own upbringing.

If I have interpreted this correctly, then how does a parent or psychologist (or other outside observer) determine if a parent is parenting from "a rational, stable place.", or "reacting" to left over baggage from your childhood.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

I took the rational, stable place in the context of this:

Quote:

If you are a pretty stable human being, your reactions are pretty stable. Its not like some days its ok to hit the cat and other days it isn't.
to mean parents who aren't consistent. Consistency is at least as important as gentle discipline so it needs to happen too.

I think too many however think that consistence must mean harshness, rules, etc. It means reacting consistently so that your children know what to expect. Not spanking them for jumping on the bed one day then having the whole family jump on the bed for fun the next (for a wild "instance").


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## HippieMomma2Chloe (Oct 6, 2004)

I'm finding this thread quite fascinating. I'm with Bippity in that this is food for thought for the future, as my DD is 20 months old and much of this doesn't apply yet.
This topic raises this question for me though: What about respect for others? Along with teaching my DD to be creative, to think outside the box, and to explore her own individuality, I also want to teach her to respect other people's thoughts, ideas, and feelings.
For instance: if my DD were to use a cuss word in front of relatives or even strangers, surely that would make those people uncomfortable, as those are words *they don't believe are appropriate. Yes, it's because of the way society is that those words aren't "okay", but nonetheless it still makes some people uncomfortable to hear such a word coming from a child's mouth. So if it's okay to say them in our home, but not in public/in front of friends/family, you get that double standard or change of environments thing.
Hmmm.... I'm sort of talking myself through this as I type, so bear with me.








I think that I will try, as she gets older, to teach her to empathize, and to try to understand what others will feel, and take that into consideration with her actions. If she doesn't like someone, by all means is she more than welcome to tell them. I'm quite upfront about things like that as well (though I do have a bit more tact than a 4 or 5 year old would!) But I want her to think about how that person might feel if she says "I don't like you."
So perhaps that's part of teaching the difference between home and outside the home - learning to respect the feelings of other people? And surely it will be a constant work in progress!
::







ff to think more about this:::







:


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Children are the BEST mirrors. They learn what they see. What you want them to learn, do.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NatureMamaOR*
Children are the BEST mirrors. They learn what they see. What you want them to learn, do.

And sometimes what you don't want them to do. :LOL
(As in, they often see right through adults and our weak points)

This a great thread. I have always disliked having rules for the sake of having rules. Even as a child, I needed to know WHY.

On the subject of parenting from a stable place - my dad didn't. It was very hard to deal with. The problem was not that the rules for home were different than the rules for public, or that the rules at home/public varied with the circumstance. The problem was that the "rules" depended on his mood and current mental state, making it very hard as a child to know what to expect. Some days he was easy going, other days he was punitive. You never knew what the reaction would be.

If rules change with the circumstances, that does not equal a lack of consistency. If rules change because dad is in a certain mental space, that IS a lack of consistency.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

As in, they often see right through adults and our weak points
isn't that the truth? :LOL

I love love LOVED the article in Mothering about kids mirroring us. Gave me SOOOO much insight (and foot to chew







).


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HippieMomma2Chloe*
For instance: if my DD were to use a cuss word in front of relatives or even strangers, surely that would make those people uncomfortable, as those are words *they don't believe are appropriate.
...................................

But I want her to think about how that person might feel if she says "I don't like you."
So perhaps that's part of teaching the difference between home and outside the home - learning to respect the feelings of other people? And surely it will be a constant work in progress!
::







ff to think more about this:::







:

great thread!!!

on the swearing issue- yes, i want my dd to be able to respect others as well. however, i want her to come to this through her own understanding, not out of fear- fear of punishment, fear of not being accepted, fear of making someone uncomforable. yk?

i like the last part of what you wrote. it will take time, in that this is not for young toddlers to necessarily "get" , but it will be a work in progress.

gotta go for now...
lisa


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Wow! You guys are quite bloody enlightened! I don't mean that in the way it probably sounds, but, I did think I would come up against more walls than have been apparent. You see, IRL, I have been flamed for my parenting style. So, I guess I was expecting it to be even worse with a post as tone is not as easy to read. But, nooooo, you have all shown me that yes, MDC is a condensed unit of liberal thinkers, yet again. Not that that was my point (oh, geez, burying myself here!).

I had many an online discussion with a man who practices NLP, and I learned some great things from him. I argued back and forth about respect for others, and teaching the child to speak nicely and not be rude. I could never impart the info quite like he did, but he showed me that the "speak nicely" thing was actually still hampering a child. And most importantly, it takes years of bringing up a child and constantly modelling polite behaviour to reap the benefits of a liberated child who can still be respectful. In the meantime, we cringe from time to time as they test out phrases (such as "you stink grandpa"), they see and learn about the reactions, thereby consciously choosing better phrasing as they grow, but not with coersion, manipulation or fear - but with choice and empathy. And as it was pointed out, asking "why did you choose to say that?" is a great tool.

I am just smiling ear to ear right now that so many parents are allowing such freedoms with their children. Ok, so I know that many aren't posting their thoughts who differ, (or simply aren't members of MDC) but we have come a long way Toto, from the parenting styles only decades before us.

There was a question or two in the previous page, and I am afraid to hit the 'back' button in fear of losing my post, so I will end this one to check I haven't left something out.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

calm, i have to say that i too am pleasantly surprised by the posts. i have read some really yuchy stuff on the GD forum.
this actually fits in great w/ TCS modality.







lisa


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"Do I count? Should I count? This is where I still struggle."

Fiddledebi, hi! Telling a child to pull their finger out cos life has other plans today, is perfectly fine in my book (and it's a very large book LOL). It is one thing to stop a child playing in the sink because "that is where we do dishes" or "you make too much mess" or some other reason, but quite another to stop them because you have to be somewhere.

This is a part of natural bounderies. You DO count, as much as they do. There is a spectrum of parents, those who put their needs first at the expense of a child, those who have a kind of middle ground and those who struggle as they wish to give give give to the child and often put themself last on the list of "life". I think many at MDC are in the latter category, myself included at times.

As a for instance, in the situation you mentioned, I would first decide if it is really necessary to leave right now. Usually, it is. Then I try to let her choose in some way, what to wear, where to sit in the car, etc. My dd has kicked up a stink about things occasionally, really harping on what she'd rather be doing (playing in the sink), but I just acknowlege her desires "I know you want to play in the sink, but that's not going to happen." let her grieve, and move on. Allowing my dd to grieve has worked wonders. I used to freak out at her crying or getting angry, like I had to step in and do something about it. But, as I am an experimental mom, I tried different things, and found that she needs grieving time. As she comes to terms with what she cannot have, I allow it and don't tell her to "stop whining, stop crying, stop being silly", and get on with the task at hand.

You have to struggle with children sometimes. Especially toddlers. As they struggle for their autonomy, their freedom of choice, they are learning a valuable lesson. Sometimes their freedom is granted, other times, responsibilities come first - just like adult life! Try putting a diaper on a 14 month old who is intent on playing naked with his pull trolley. Exactly. No parent is exempt from struggle from time to time. Don't beat yourself up over struggle. We fit into each other's lives, just as the tribal mother slings her 4 year old and takes him into the field to pick berries, so must we take them into our life as much as we are taken into theirs.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Unlike many people here I personally LOVE rules. Yep, I do. Partly because of the way I just was born and maybe because I was raised in a house with MANY rules but very little punishment and NO harsh or physical punishment.

I don't feel bad or guilty having lots of rules and I don't think I have to have a reason for them. I am the parent and yes my kids are expected to follow the rules that I set. I don't feel that my kids should be on the furniture, for example. Why not? Beause furniture was not meant to be walked on and is more likely to get dirty etc. BUT I also don't feel that I "owe" it to my kids to have a reason. I just don't.

I don't care if someone else has different rules in their house, but I do care if they don't respect the fact that there are different rules in my home.


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
...I just acknowlege her desires "I know you want to play in the sink, but that's not going to happen." let her grieve, and move on. Allowing my dd to grieve has worked wonders. I used to freak out at her crying or getting angry, like I had to step in and do something about it. But, as I am an experimental mom, I tried different things, and found that she needs grieving time. As she comes to terms with what she cannot have, I allow it and don't tell her to "stop whining, stop crying, stop being silly", and get on with the task at hand.....

Thanks, Calm! This is very much the way I go about our daily negotiations. I remember a terrible moment in my adolescence when I tried to explain to my father that the way he talked to me made me feel really hurt, and his answer was, "Well, stop it. Feeling like that is foolish, you just need to stop being hurt and do what I'm telling you." I am not really paraphrasing or giving you the gist of what he said; that is REALLY what he said. Being told -- literally! -- that what I was feeling was foolish felt so completely destructive. I felt like an un-person. That's why, even when the injustice seems small to me compared to the consequence (i.e., DD is hysterical because she cannot cut her play food with my real butcher knife), I still say exactly what you're saying. "I can tell you are really sad and angry that I won't let you play with the knife, because you really want to! It's just not safe, DD. I'm sorry I can't give it to you. Can we find something else to do, or would you like a hug?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
...No parent is exempt from struggle from time to time. Don't beat yourself up over struggle. We fit into each other's lives, just as the tribal mother slings her 4 year old and takes him into the field to pick berries, so must we take them into our life as much as we are taken into theirs.

This is such a great way of looking at it! Thank you for putting it so nicely!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Calm, how do you think being a Buddhist has influenced your thoughts on this?

I know Buddhism has a deep impact on how I approach parenting. Children are sentient beings too. They have the same basic nature we do. They deserve respect and compassion and as much skillful means as we can muster!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Mona wrote:
on the swearing issue- yes, i want my dd to be able to respect others as well. however, i want her to come to this through her own understanding, not out of fear- fear of punishment, fear of not being accepted, fear of making someone uncomforable. yk?
=============================
Yes! This is how I feel as well. My children swear, probably as much as I do (more on a bad day lol) It doesn't make me uncomfortable, but they know that it makes my dad and his wife uncomfortable if they say more than just the occasional "crap" or "hell" slip out. The kids and I have talked about that, and they say that because they don't want to make them (the grandparents feel wierd) that they just don't use those words around them. It comes from a place of respecting someone else, and wanting to not intentionally make someone uncomfortable rather than a place of "can't say that, I'll get in trouble".


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
If I have interpreted this correctly, then how does a parent or psychologist (or other outside observer) determine if a parent is parenting from "a rational, stable place.", or "reacting" to left over baggage from your childhood.

As a therapist- I help parents determine that question for themselves. Mostly, they know, even if they don't know how to do differently. Now that you mention it, I can't think of one situation where a parent was too permissive and felt bad about it. It is offering your children options and freedom and then resenting how they chose that makes parents so angry. People see me because they feel bad when they lose it, yell too much, feel out of control, feel ineffective. If you set the bar and then live well with it, how would I ever get involved?

My niece used to get in trouble at the daycare because she would take the little boys under the table and get them "playing doctor". When we tried to talk to her about it she said- "Its my body!" She was 4. At some point they do come face to face with social expectations.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HippieMomma2Chloe*
What about respect for others? Along with teaching my DD to be creative, to think outside the box, and to explore her own individuality, I also want to teach her to respect other people's thoughts, ideas, and feelings. :

Children learn respect by watching you. Children learn empathy from being understood. Sadly what they often get from sensitive parents is fear of hurting other people's feelings. Children are born assertive and then somehow 30 years later they end up in my office unable to speak for themselves, unable to identify their own needs and feelings. I fear that especially for girls, they learn nice at the cost of honesty.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

What a great thread with so much food for thought!
I totally agree with your post, Calm, yet it is something that I struggle with. It's like I know intuitively and intellectually the way that I want to parent, but sometimes I've spoken before I even notice and I've said something totally counter to my philosophy. And yes, for me, it is very much about societal expectations and the desire to please others. Does that make any sense?
I guess this is one reason why I find it easier to be around people who parent like I do- I don't have to constantly battle that part of myself that pleases.

Kaly


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Maya43, hi! I would love to discuss with you if you like, however, I fear you will think I don't respect your decisions if I ask you questions (which isn't the case). So I open the door to discussion if you like, and if you would prefer to leave what you wrote as a conclusion - fair enough too.

In a rush, but will come back with more soon - good question Dechen.


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## annh (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
I think that a big problem is that society expects children to behave like adults, and we fail to recognize normal, age-appropriate behavior in children.

MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Maya43, hi! I would love to discuss with you if you like, however, I fear you will think I don't respect your decisions if I ask you questions (which isn't the case). So I open the door to discussion if you like, and if you would prefer to leave what you wrote as a conclusion - fair enough too.

Calm,

I have no problem discussing this with you. I have read many of your posts and I know you are a respectful person. Ask away.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

http://sandradodd.com/rules

I was reading this article and thought of this thread


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

PumpkinSeeds, great link! Maya perhaps you'd like to take a look at that link and tell me what you think. It is a rules vs principles chat.

But before I let you go to that, (let you go? bleh, you know what I mean) I wanted to say that rules have saved our lives. I have nothing against rules, my goal was to engage people into a thought analysis (cos that's what I've been doing, so I thought I'd drag everyone for the ride) about our reasons behind our chosen rules. There are many rules that are the same in most homes - don't run with pencils, and don't stick your tongue into power sockets, for example. They are safety based, and until we have architects and electricians for children, these rules keep them safe and make sense in context.

Even my example of standing on a table can be against the rules in someone else's home - for safety reasons. I have what could be classed as a rule in our home - always climb the stairs with mom or dad. This will change when she demonstrates she can do this safely without me. I am more interested in rules that are applied without a safety clause.

They may not even be called rules. They may be one off instances where we pull our child up on something that we are not comfortable with but it is not based in safety, but more on belief. I mentioned some examples (eg, eating off the plate with their face) to find reactions and see where they are based. There is no harm in doing this, so a rule applied to how to eat would be based in a belief.

Anyway, update me on your thoughts so far, and perhaps give me some examples of rules you have applied in your home.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Nice thread. One of my "rules" as a parent is to review my requests in a meaningful way. I feel that I have SO much power over my child that the least I can do is think and rethink my demands, yk?

This has resulted in many different outcomes ranging from me being surer of the motivations and rightness of my request to me changing my mind.

It is absolutely true that I make lots of decisions for myself and child based on what's socially acceptable but when this happens I try to be aware of it and express this to my child.

We ARE struggling with the fact that our home is so different than many other areas of DC's life as far as expectations are concerned but, like you said, my child is fully capable of making this distinction and I think most children are.

It's interesting that you brought up language because I think this relates to language in a different way. One of the main components of learning a language is learning the different ways in which use language depending on the situation. Children learn this and they can also learn that certain behavior is okay in one place and not another.

There will be a learning curve but in the end, the child will be the better for it because they would have solidly learned how to adapt to different situations ~ something US adults seem to have a very difficult time with.

I think one could tell from my post that I'm the type to conform to community standards ~ to a very limited point. This is NOT to say that I don't respect someone's choice to not conform or that I think these children will be worse off.

Good discussion!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Dechen, this is for you, and I totally agree with your post.

If it weren't for my Buddhism training, parenting for me would have been very difficult. My signature below is basically how I parent - and just those simple thoughts make such a positive difference to my parenting. There are many things that do not exist in this moment - society is one of them, someone's opinion is another, and well, the list goes on. In a moment with my child, a moment where we are confronted with frustration, being completely in the moment and seeing it for the purity it is helps me listen to her. Helps me focus.

So when it comes to this line of thinking (rules, disciplining creativity), it would be true that the basic Buddhist foundations I have create this. My husband and I see "love" as an entity. We think, "What would LOVE do now?" It is amazing how differently we react. DD is whining, crying, angry, demanding - but love is understanding; love sees the innocence beneath the behavior. My daughter is showing signs of modeling this already. She is the first one to offer a listening ear: "Are you ok? What's happening?" the first one to humble herself: "Oh, I'm sorry, I just wanted to play with you." The first one to live through love: "Mama, you are cranky right now, and that's ok, I am trying to understand."

She is not yet two and a half.

Mindfulness keeps my anger in check and extends my patience. Trying to practice non-attachment keeps me grounded about the things I have - and causes me to share my "precious things" more gracefully with children. Love of all beings, especially the hateful ones, helps me stay differentiated - so that I do not react out of a past hurt, or a future fear. As I walk the eightfold path, I attempt to communicate with kindness. This becomes interesting sometimes, as I engage in communication with someone about Osama Bin Laden for example, and try to wear his shoes and understand his motivations, you can imagine the reactions I get with THAT one. But this is what I want for my child. I wish for her to be that one person who can love beyond usual human feasibility. I wish for her to be able to understand that which seems incomprehensible. How to achieve that? By extending that courtesy to HER. By allowing her inherent expressiveness and creativity spill out in whichever way it will - unharmed by my preconceived ideas of how life should be, or how she should be.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I am coming into this thread way too lat, I fear!

It is just what I needed right now, though, as I am going through many outside of the family stressors and unfortunately am taking much of it out on Dylan. I had always meant to parent with no rules except safety ones, but am slipping.

I hope this thread continues and I can add more (and learn more!)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I wanted to ask some of you about the things that I consider conforming to societal standards to see if we're on the same page because I've never met a parent who doesn't do *some* of this ~ and I know some 'out there parents'.

I think clothing is a good example. We don't actually need clothing where I live during several months out of the year but I don't let DC go naked to places like the grocery store or out on the main street and the reason for this is purely social conformity.

I also find that safety rules are somewhat...unrealistic sometimes. There are *lots* of things that I simply don't find dangerous to the extent that other people do. But, it's even more difficult in some ways to be outside of the 'norm' when it comes to safety/health.

I mention this type of thing because this is what I had in mind when I was admitting to parenting with some conformity.

So, how do those of you who have a goal of parenting without rules based on social conformity handle these type situations?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Calm,

The rules in our home have changed over time:

Here are some examples:

1. Bed at 8 p.m. (under age 8) Bed at 8:30 (age 8 and up)

2 I shop for and pick out your clothes on a daily basis (under age 5) I shop for and supervise your clothing choices (age 5-6) I shop for but you can pick your clothes (age 7-8) You can help shop for your clothes (with mom's heavy involvment) and pick them out (age 9-10) You can shop for clothes (with moms veto) and pick out what you wear (age 11 and up).

3. No potty mouth (around me or other adults, by youself when playing in your room with friends, that is you business)

4. Sit at the table until all are done (from age 2 up).

5. You may comment on but not complain about the food served.

6. You do not have to eat anything you want, but will not get something else for dinner. (heavily involved in lunch and breakfast choices, but not dinner)

7. And the one that I am sure will offend some people here:
do what I ask of you when I ask:

Such as "bring me that book" "clean up this mess" "let's go"


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I won't argue- if it is working. If it is working, then you are raising your kids to be cooperative and respectful. If you are using heavy handed obedience (I certainly can't judge just from your reply) then you would start to see more sneaky behavior, lack of cooperation, and disrespectful behavior out in the world. Your plan is a good one, if your kids know they are loved, know that your plan is based on how much you value them. I think of myself as pretty lax but realize after reading here, that I like more structure than some parents. For me, bedtime is a big one. I am not the worlds best mother when I am tired, and my kids are not the worlds best kids either. So I put a lot of energy into bedtime rituals so that nights go smoothly. But that is a lot about know what I need, and some about knowing what my kids need.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

This has been an interesting thread -- I've thought about this since I read it the first time.

Our house is more like Maya43's. While I allow a lot of independence (more than most people I know) and always acknowledge my son's feelings about what is going on and would never trivialize his wants or desires, I don't know that I agree that setting some limits, even if they are not solely constrained by safety concerns, hinders his creativity. I don't know, I think there is a difference between setting reasonable rules and acknowledging age-appropriate behavior and not providing enough structure to allow optimal growth. A middle ground.

I thought of a few analogies which people can take or leave. First, music. There is a time for experimentation, for just banging on the keys, etc., but to allow full expression of musical creativity, there must also be a time to learn chords, harmony, musical theory, how to position your hand, etc. IMHO, behavioral rules are like those lessons, channeling creativity into the most beautiful and productive output. The difference is -- do you force the child to practice chords or admonish them when they make mistakes? No, not as part of GD. But you can still guide them to more effective expression of music. Second, plant growth. Many plants require some constraints (whether that is pruning, cutting back, staking, etc.) to be able to grow appropriately.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Feeling a little mainstream here (though still considered alt-crunchy by everyone I know IRL!) I just see a difference between "you must color inside the lines" and "you can't color on the walls." I don't think my child is any less creative because I set some rules.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Just for the record, none of my rules are enforced with harsh punishment. The only discipline is that the "rules" are restated and an expression of dissatisfaction is given.

So its "Pick up your toys now sweetie"

and most of the time they do it but if not i ask again a time or two. And I explainin why ONCE (like I don't like how messy things look or whatever) BUT I don't get dragged into ANY discussion of WHY they have to do it or WHY they don't want to).

If they still have not done it and I need it done, i will do it myself and then say:

I asked you to pick up your toys. Its your job and I had to do it. I do not like that next time I expect you to do it.

As for interfering with creativity, I just don't buy that. I mean, why are so many artists at their most creative when they are unhappy. Not that I want my kids to be unhappy, but I don't see the correlation.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

i don't use the words rules a lot, but we do have general "priciples" that we follow and enforce:
no stepping on the animals
no poking at the animals
no hitting the animals
no hitting anyone (in a hurtful way)

basically, if it hurts someone/some animal, it is not permitted. likewise, if i know it is going to hurt dd, it is not permissable. although honestly can't think of too many things that she wants to do that will lead her to hurting herself.

everything else is negotiable. she can wear the shirt she wants. why should i decide what she wears when it is her body? i mean, i'd get really pissed off if i had to wear the clothes my dh set out for me, even if he has better fashion sense then me.









if she's not tired, i don't make her go to bed. if she is tired, but doesn't want to go to bed, then we move things towards going to bed. but it is a work in motion, not an absolute that i force her to do. we move towards decisions and actions together.

i could go on and on, but i think you get the idea of how i parent. i respect her as a human being. if i don't respect her, i am imposing MY ideas, judgement, ect onto her. THIS is what limits creativity, imo. if she is not free to explore, to choose, to be who she wants, how can she trust her own inner creative nature?

one thing that i too struggle w/ is the concept of "what about me?" It is hard work when you honor your child, but they are not yet at teh age when they can necessarily honor you. (my dd is 22 mo). like, when we are at the park, and i want to go home bc i have to go to the bathroom. very difficult. but i do my best to give her lots of warning, and tell her that i have to use the bathroom, ect. In the end, sometimes we leave peacefully, other times there is stuggle involved. which i don't like.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

I mean, why are so many artists at their most creative when they are unhappy.
because of our personalities.

What stops creativity is when the creative process for a child (say coloring on the walls, may be some day they will do murals) is squelched due to "rules" that have no sound basis.

Every time I whine to my Mom on the phone that the twins have colored on walls again, she helps me keep perspective by asking "I wonder what they'll do with that skill some day?" and it's true.

For us that means looking into putting newsprint rolls or butcher paper on the walls to allow for clean walls *and* creativity. See what I mean?

At some point in the future when they're able to work with permanent things (such as paint) we'll probably let them paint murals on their room walls, even if it doesn't "look nice" to someone else.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

T
good ideas for the walls mama.
i was just thinking this morning that one day soon i might have to have to work w/ that issue.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Interstingly, despite the many rules in our house many of which are NOT health/safety based, I get little resistence. Maybe because they know I will NEVER get into a power struggle about it.

I know some people think its terrible that I don't let my kids pick their own clothes when they are little, but I just decided that the time that this involved made our whole family life too jarring in the morning.

I do not feel bad about this. I feel that small children are not as capable of decision making.

Would I like it if my DH laid out my clothes for me? This is in my mind a false analogy and one I truly dislike. First I believe that kids and adults are not equals. My mother alway said "Adulthood has more privleges and more obligations" and I believe this.

As adults we owe more to children, especiall our own, then we do other adults. I love my DH but there are things that he could do (Thank god this is just a hypothetical) that could make me stop loving him (use your imagination).

However, there is NOTHING my children can do that would ever make me stop loving them. The relationship is unique and can't be analogized to ANY other.

I have an obligation to love my kids no matter what. Their behavior has for me very little to do with how I feel about them. I adore them all the time. I am not one of those people who feels that their kid is driving them nuts.

I also have an obligation to teach them how to behave in society. I do NOt allow my kids to bother other people's feelings or property, no matter how much they might want to in the name of "creativity".

I also feel as an adult that I get to set certain rules in my home for my own happiness, and I just don't feel badly about it.

This is how I was raised. It never bothered me a whit. I felt loved and secure and since I was never punished the rules to me just made me feel that much more secure.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

calm, thank you so much for sharing your heart-felt and thoughtful ideas about our children's selves. I've been lurking in this thread for a little while reading all the posts, and finally feel comfortable posting my little feedback.

As with you, I am concerned about my dd's sense of self and security and creativity. We value these traits very highly in my family. I am a firm believer in healthy boundaries for everyone and feel my dd needs lots of room to explore, and a few healthy boundaries in which to act safely. I let her eat however she wants, dress herself, determine nap time, determine what she will choose to eat (for example, I'll ask her "you can have peas or tempeh with rice. which one do you want?" food is a limited resource in our house, so these kinds of choices are necessary)

She also chooses music - and surprises us every time! Her favorites are Chuck D, Sugarhill Gang, and old 70s funk/soul stuff. (A child of great taste, I say! And she hates regular kids' music...) I try to limit my restrictions on her behavior with the question: is this really necessary? It also, as noted by others, reduces power struggles.

My dd has already been told not to do things by her grandparents, things like comb your hair and come here when she obviously doesn't want to. And I've had to step in and say, "In our family we don't say 'shame on you', Dad. If you don't like how dd's behaving, just say it to her. Or talk to me later." Or, if they touch her and she's not happy about it, I'll say "DD, do you want to hug Grandma?" or "Is it OK is she touches your hair?" Dd still loves to see her gp's, but avoids them when they put too many demands on her.

DD is 31 mo.

Rules I enforce day-to-day in our house are very few, all safety based. DP's rules, however, are more often "just because". He is reluctant to see this, and we've talked about times when he had made her do something that really wasn't necessary, just customary. I enforce the following rules that are, to me, safety or reality-based:
"no climbing stairs without mom or dad"
"no throwing your plate on the table because it will break"
"now you need to chew and swallow everything in your mouth before you put anything else in there so you don't choke"
"everything gets put away before bed"
"shoes at the grocery store/restaurant/other food place" [always seemed sanitary to me, but now I wonder...]
etc.

All in all I am not a perfect model. I do slip when tired or when I feel undersupported. Breastfeeding is a great example. I have limited nursing times when I just can't do it, and feel OK with that boundary. I delay juice requests by making her drink all of her previous drink first - usually water. But most of all I try to just listen to her and follow her lead, and she's usually taught me patience and led me into spontaneity - my two most needed places these days. Perhaps it gets more difficult with more than one?

All in all, I reject most social custom. I feel nothing wrong with teaching children to speak their mind - after all, I'm the adult, and threfore more capable of handling any embarrassment that may arise, right? She will learn through experience what she needs to. It's my job to be the guide, the one with all the experience, and not to make her conform just because.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

[/QUOTE]Anyway, update me on your thoughts so far, and perhaps give me some examples of rules you have applied in your home.[/QUOTE]

Ok, here's some examples:

We don't have a rule about not dumping things. While I inwardly cringe at the crayons being dumped out all over the floor, it has led to color and size sorting, rolling experiments, and hand eye coordination (in the form of throwing the crayons back in the container).

We don't have the one toy at a time rule that many of our friends seem to have.

The guys can wear any clothes they want, even if it is completely seasonally inappropriate. (I don't make them wear coats or sweatshirts when it is cold outside. We take one along and they put it on if they want to).

They can bounce on beds, climb on most furniture (not bookshelf for safety reasons). (A favorite game right now is to tip over the inflatable couch and climb on it like a mountain/submarine/etc. )

They don't have to sleep when I think it is bedtime (although, equally, I won't stay up with them if I'm tired). And, actually, this has never really been an issue. They do end up going to bed at around the same time every night because they usuallly are tired then.

I actually don't have much of an issue with running with implements like pencils, although I might if they were sharp? Don't know, it's never come up. They do run with kids safety scissors sometimes.









Rules we do have:
Be loving. We don't hit or physically hurt, and when we do use hurtful words we talk about the ramifications of such words.

It gets much harder for me outside of the house. Like at the grocery store, for example. I really don't want to have to deal with my son picking everything off the shelf, even though I know he'll put it back in its correct place, and it isn't a safety issue really.









Kaly


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
My husband and I see "love" as an entity. We think, "What would LOVE do now?" .

I LOVE this!!!









As ICM noted, it is more difficult to shed the social customs when around other parents and children....

One thing I feel strongly about is letting dd choose her own foods. She eats very healthfully, and we only buy what we are willing to let her eat (if we don't want her eating it, we don't have it in the house). If dd wants ice cream with dinner, so be it.

But, when we are with friends, I know that other parents strongly do not want their children eating "dessert" before "the meal". And if dd is eating dessert first, then that will cause problems for the other mamas. So I find myself making "rules" for no reason other than the standards of other parents (no eating dessert first when with your friends....). It is so difficult to explain the "why?" to dd when it is not really an important rule to *me*.

Sometimes, referring to signs helps a bunch. I have no safety issue about shoes in the mall, etc...and no inherent shame attached, either....but there is a sign on the door stating "shirt and shoes required", and I insist that we follow all of the posted rules of any establishment we patronize. Similarly, the community has decency laws that require clothing, and I am sure that a police officer would object to a 3 yo walking the neighborhood naked. Whether that is appropriate or not, that is the state of our society--and I am not interested in an altercation with the police. So clothed it is. If I were not anxious about confrontation with the police, or if the laws were different, then I would be a happy to let dd walk around naked whenever she wanted.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Our rules seem a lot like yours zipper, with bedtime being the aside. Since we've discovered just how much their ADHD is affecting their sleep, we do give them the melatnonin at 6pm. Generally they'll get tired between 7:30 and 8:30 (they wouldn't get tired EVER otherwise). Obviously however, that's an abnormal situation (the ADHD).

Our "rules" are no riding bikes out front without a parent out front, no playing "tractor game" (one child pulling another child up and down the hall at breakneck speed. our hall is Z shaped and shortly after we moved in Matthew dragged Andrew into one of the corners and he got a SEVERE laceration on his scalp -through the muscle to the bone), no playing "falling game" (falling backward off the ends of the couch toward each other-Matthew's front teeth got pushed into his gums that way as well as gum abrasions), if you dump all of something out you have to help or put it back.


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

This is a great discussion!

I'm trying to think of my hard-and-fast rules...most are safety related, like "no touching the stove," "hold hands when we walk in the alley," "you must be buckled into your car seat in the car," "we don't hit/kick/push each other," "we don't throw dirt from the garden if anyone is close enough to get it in their eyes," etc.

The rules that don't involve safety involve the maintenance of our lifestyle -- i.e., she cannot bang on my laptop keyboard, because the 2 days a week I work at home, I need that laptop to do my job, and if it's broken, I can't work. Getting her her own keyboard to bang on was the smartest thing I did in that area.







We also have a rule about not spitting food at each other, because I have a really weak stomach and find it absolutely disgusting. I guess the only other one I can think of is that sand stays in the sandbox. I just don't want to be replacing the sand all the time, since play sand is expensive, so I don't let DD take it all over the yard. Dirt, however, is perfectly transportable and makes decent castles too.









I think it's really important that parents respect themselves, even when it comes to parenting. I want DD to have freedom and be creative, but not at an unreasonable expense to me. She used to twirl my hair when she was tired, and the sleepier she got, the harder she'd yank and tug at it, and I'd just lie there wincing and grimacing. Finally one day DH said, "You do not have to let her do that to you! You can teach her to stop doing that because it hurts you. It is ok to take care of yourself, too." I hadn't even thought about that. I think that some parents on this board (someone else mentioned this, too) forget that respecting themselves and their own boundaries sets a positive example for their children, too.

That said, if anyone needs me tonight, I'll be ignoring my exercise routine and my fiddle practicing so I can play with DD in the backyard!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
We think, "What would LOVE do now?" It is amazing how differently we react. DD is whining, crying, angry, demanding - but love is understanding; love sees the innocence beneath the behavior.


Yes, this is something I believe and practice as well. ITA. Though probably not where you were originally going with the thread, it's interesting to think about how our religion/spirituality affect our parenting.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I just love this thread- it is really getting me thinking. I really think that the "zen" of parenting is finding as few power struggles as possible and then being firm about the ones that you really believe in. That is where we each have to decide for ourselves what our core values are. Now, I have raised one kid- so some of this isn't just theoretical to me. What about smoking? piercing your tongue? "dangerous" friends? I'm trying to think of some of the power struggles I chose not to have. Looking back I wish I would have fought smoking harder as it is a safety issue. Of course I would have lost I suppose. I never let him think it was ok with me- why breast feed all that time and then have him poison the body I worked so hard on. As for the tongue piercing- no safety issue although my dentist had a fit. I wouldn't pay for it- he had to but I agreed to sign the permission slip so that he would do it safely. It hurt like hell. That was a natural consequence. Then he got picked up on a curfew violation and they made him take it out... he never put it back in. So in some odd way, I think letting him make that choice worked better than fighting him.

Nate was a really tough kid to raise. Not sure he is yet, but pretty close. He was born for power struggles. (ADHD, Tourettes, mood problems.) He says that if he had a different kind of mom (stricter) he never would have lived through his childhood. He thinks my letting him do it his way was a good decision. I don't think I really had much choice. The only way some kids make sure that they really do have a choice is to chose poorly. They have to blaze their own path. Then your parenting strategies get really tested. Believe me, lots of people thought I was crazy. They would have felt better if I tried to beat it out of him. But love and respect seems to be working. He's a pretty great guy, sensitive, creative, respectful. But still struggling with how to fit into the world and my heart hurts for him.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
But, when we are with friends, I know that other parents strongly do not want their children eating "dessert" before "the meal". And if dd is eating dessert first, then that will cause problems for the other mamas. So I find myself making "rules" for no reason other than the standards of other parents (no eating dessert first when with your friends....). It is so difficult to explain the "why?" to dd when it is not really an important rule to *me*.


Dang, I find that so hard, too.

Ok, so my new mantra is "be love."
Thanks, Calm, for this thread and your words.

slightly ot- naturemamaor, your kids sound so much like mine(the insanely crazy games). I have a hard time sometimes, because even though they are both enjoying a game it looks so dangerous to me!








Kaly


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Kaly, that is why I'm grateful for a DH who is actively involved! He can "supervise" those *games* and let them have fun where I'd be inclined to constantly "stop! that's dangerous! you'll poke an eye out!" etc :LOL

Somehow, it doesn't phase him (and no, tractor game and falling game weren't condoned by him).







:


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)




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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

:

What an interesting thread! I'm curious how those of you with very few rules handle the wasting/ruining issue. Money is tight around here, so I find myself limiting the kids' behavior based on not wanting something wasted or damaged. Example: 4 y.o. dd loves to mix her tempura paints (we only have red, blue, yellow, black and white, and mix our own colors from there.) I love to let her, except that left to her own creative devices she uses *tons* of paint! (Not painting with all of it, just mixing huge amounts of any given color -- like a half cup of orange!







) Giving her smaller amounts doesn't help much; she uses it all up right away then wants more. If I refuse, she stops painting, and there goes the creative play, KWIM? So my response has been to not allow her to be in charge of the paint bottles. I will give her small amounts of whatever color she chooses to make next, but *I'm* the bottle squeezer. I wish I could come up with a better strategy -- this way feels too controling. I'd love to just hand her the paints and let her go at it, but I can't afford be replacing these big bottles of paint every month. On the other hand, is it such a bad thing to be teaching her to be mindful of not wasting things? This is but one example of a rule we have that is dictated by money rather than safety or convention. There are others as well. The paint example probably has the most obvious connection to creativity.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Yeah, I get you on the wasting things. My oldest is a paint mixer too. He doesn't actually like to paint, but he does love to mix those colors. I have explained to him that we have a limited budget for art supplies, and that once they're gone, they're gone. So right now they're gone and we'll get more at christmastime. Watercolors are his newest fav, and they can be mixed much more economically.
Kaly


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Skim wrote:
My dd has already been told not to do things by her grandparents, things like comb your hair and come here when she obviously doesn't want to. And I've had to step in and say, "In our family we don't say 'shame on you', Dad. If you don't like how dd's behaving, just say it to her. Or talk to me later." Or, if they touch her and she's not happy about it, I'll say "DD, do you want to hug Grandma?" or "Is it OK is she touches your hair?" Dd still loves to see her gp's, but avoids them when they put too many demands on her.
===============================
We have dealt with this too. Mostly with my husbands family. His mother stayed with us a time or two for extended periods. She would tell them that a tv show was inappropriate for them, or that they shouldn't eat cake before dinner, etc. Since the kids choose what to watch for themselves, and what to eat and when we had to discuss how things work in our family with the in-laws.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

I'm curious how those of you with very few rules handle the wasting/ruining issue
a lot of natural consequences and some rationing (things which we know they will REALLY desire when we still don't have $$ for it).

We are extremely limited in funds, so the twins have learned many a time that if you waste something, there's no replacement.

fortunately, they're creative enough to figure out something else to do.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh, patience don't fail me now! I just lost my post. Geeez. It answered a few questions and everything. I'll have to try again later.

Don't ya just luuuuuurve that?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

My house is more like maya43. We do have quite a few rules and we do enforce them. We don't spank or yell but we are firm. For example if you dump your plate of food on purpose (something both of our kids have done or still do on a regular basis) your meal is over, no exceptions. They know better and if they were hungry they wouldn't be throwing their food. They have set bedtimes and they go when I say they go. They are not allowed to swear or say stupid, shut up and stuff like that. No one in our house speaks like that. At the same time we aren't strict about some things that others are. Our kids can jump on their beds, we don't care. They don't have frames anyways. We don't mind if they climb all over the furniture as long as their careful. I drive my mom nuts because I would rather them learn things themselves - for example Olivia was standing on the picnic table outside and my mom is freaking out saying "get her down, she'll fall!" to which I reply "well then she wont do it again will she?" If there is a chance of them getting seriously hurt I will stop it but otherwise I leave them be. I don't care how they dress, even if they look silly, but I DO make them dress warmly if its cold out. So we have rules but we are relaxed to. Make any sense?

"She also chooses music - and surprises us every time! Her favorites are Chuck D, Sugarhill Gang, and old 70s funk/soul stuff. (A child of great taste, I say! And she hates regular kids' music...) " I had to comment on this! Everyone I know thinks I'm nuts but I don't put on kiddy music, we listen to whatever. Today my son and daughter have been walking around singing ,"I'm a rocket man!" Rocket Man by Elton John. LOL!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
Everyone I know thinks I'm nuts but I don't put on kiddy music, we listen to whatever. Today my son and daughter have been walking around singing ,"I'm a rocket man!" Rocket Man by Elton John. LOL!

We don't do kiddy music, either







Dd did get some Wee Sing tapes hand-me-down, but she rarely requests them.

But she does ask for The Cranberries, Simon and Garfunkel, The Dixie Chicks, and The Beatles by name


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

ICMama, clothing is often optional, with seasonal variations. I have walked with my child through malls without anything on her bottom half, but she likes shirts. I figure every other child in our family started feeling self-conscious all on their own at around 5 or 6, which is about the age adults start to feel uncomfortable around naked children anyway. At the beach, it is also seasonal, as she can get sunburned. But since her one and only mild sunburn, she complies with suggestions for cream and shirts at the beach, so logical consequence prevailed again.

When you say you won't let her go naked, has she ever asked? Maybe she is happy in clothing, like my daughter is in shirts. That is a good example, as we feel a little judged when out with naked children, which is why I broke that rule myself, to challenge myself. I haven't taken her out naked recently, but knowing that I would allow it if she wanted it makes dressing an easier chore. She gets in the air conditioning, too, so she learned that donning at least something light is a good idea.

Safety and health are good bounderies for children. When we set a guideline for these reasons, but the rest of their life is easier to control, they comply generally, because they aren't constantly restricted.

About language, my friend only yesterday set an interesting example. Her 3 year old son said, "I want a drink" and she insisted he say "I would like a drink" before she would get it. Later, I asked her what this was about, because the way he asked was actually closer to the truth. He WANTS a drink. What the heck is WOULD LIKE a drink? She said it sounds more polite. She is my best friend, so I said, "oh, darlin', get a grip, why are you creating such a fuss over language, when what he said is a perfectly reasonable request and very truthful and to the point?" Being used to me, she said, "yeah, I don't know, have to work on my ideas of politeness I guess." She constantly amazes people with her ability to challenge herself, being a very mainstream parent, yet she is so open to such suggestions.

"So, how do those of you who have a goal of parenting without rules based on social conformity handle these type situations?"

The goal is a personal one, not necessarily one for the child. The child will go on as he will, regardless. It is us as the parents who have this amazing opportunity to grow and stretch with them. Each time you feel discomfort (which is the key word), that is an opportunity to search for its foundations. To question yourself - is this safe? Is this necessary? Is this my belief, or one I follow to keep others comfortable? Etc. The process is the beauty of it, not necessarily the change or the result. We tend to stagnate as adults, and that is very sad. If somethin' ain't growin', its dyin'.

But, reading your posts, I think you already do this, and are a very open, daring person. I can't find much in your posts to disect, you are on a nice path.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
The rules in our home have changed over time:

Here are some examples:

1. Bed at 8 p.m. (under age 8) Bed at 8:30 (age 8 and up)

2 I shop for and pick out your clothes on a daily basis (under age 5) I shop for and supervise your clothing choices (age 5-6) I shop for but you can pick your clothes (age 7-8) You can help shop for your clothes (with mom's heavy involvment) and pick them out (age 9-10) You can shop for clothes (with moms veto) and pick out what you wear (age 11 and up).

3. No potty mouth (around me or other adults, by youself when playing in your room with friends, that is you business)

4. Sit at the table until all are done (from age 2 up).

5. You may comment on but not complain about the food served.

6. You do not have to eat anything you want, but will not get something else for dinner. (heavily involved in lunch and breakfast choices, but not dinner)

7. And the one that I am sure will offend some people here:
do what I ask of you when I ask:

Such as "bring me that book" "clean up this mess" "let's go"

1. I personally find routine benefits my child, and if it works for you, then go with it.
2. What happens when you let them choose their own clothing, even at the store? Is it for convenience, expense, or that they choose what you might consider unsuitable clothing when left to their own devices? Most days I lay out two or three choices for DD, which is choosing her clothing in a sense. I once asked her to bring me something from the cupboard, and she brought an armload of clothes out LOL! So, although I offer a choice, I limit it (not always, sometimes she picks a few herself from the closet).
3. Do you swear? If so, do you swear in front of DC? When they hear such language somewhere, do you explain that it is harsh language that adults should also use with caution? I ask this, as a parent has to be careful not to confuse a child - if we do something, or another adult does something, they have a right to know why they are considered incapable of using it/saying it correctly.
4. Wow, how do you manage that? My daughter is always last at the table, she can take an hour to eat, as she always makes art work with her food as she eats. She plays with her food and makes masterpieces, and it takes ages, and I certainly don't wait at the table for her. (she also likes to make soup with her food by putting it in her water glass!)
5. I think I need a definition of complain, would it be to say they don't like it or it tastes bad? Are they allowed to tell you after dinner that they prefer different food?
6. Fair enough.
7. Treading carefully here...do you do what they ask, when they ask? Again, this is consistency, and to lessen confusion as they process.

All up though, not nearly as full on I thought it would be. You sound fair and strong. Take my breakdown above as you will, I wanted to address all the points, even though none of them hamper creativity very directly, if at all.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mona*
i don't use the words rules a lot, but we do have general "priciples" that we follow and enforce:
no stepping on the animals
no poking at the animals
no hitting the animals
no hitting anyone (in a hurtful way)









Nice principles! As an animal lover, it always pains me when I see children chasing a flock of birds for instance. DD saw this once (regretfully) and was very upset by it, "Oh no, mama, the little girl's chasing the birds. Oh, don't worry little pigeons, fly away quick!" because we feed the wild birds that come to our home, so she has learned respect for them. Modelling gentleness with animals worked for us, thank goodness, I don't know what I'd do if she started harshing on them, I'd probably let her get bit, or scratched - as harsh as that sounds, because that would teach her much more than my words.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
First, music. There is a time for experimentation, for just banging on the keys, etc., but to allow full expression of musical creativity, there must also be a time to learn chords, harmony, musical theory, how to position your hand, etc. IMHO, behavioral rules are like those lessons, channeling creativity into the most beautiful and productive output. The difference is -- do you force the child to practice chords or admonish them when they make mistakes? No, not as part of GD. But you can still guide them to more effective expression of music.

"More effective" is an interesting phrase. Mozart needed no guidance, in fact, if he got some, he may have turned out very differently. But, I intend on guiding DD's music in the years to come. She likes drums and keyboards, and my brother just happens to be a teacher of those.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
Second, plant growth. Many plants require some constraints (whether that is pruning, cutting back, staking, etc.) to be able to grow appropriately.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Feeling a little mainstream here (though still considered alt-crunchy by everyone I know IRL!) I just see a difference between "you must color inside the lines" and "you can't color on the walls." I don't think my child is any less creative because I set some rules.

No plant _needs_ constraints. There are vines and beans that cling to trees as they grow, and this can be likened to a child who uses a parent as a guide and strength. But pruning, cutting back, staking, etc, that was started by humans in an effort to create that which they believed was more appealing. Nature is perfect as it is, and one can see that in any wild forest where no intervention has occurred. Yes, nice neat gardens are beautiful, I have some myself, but who is deciding this? One person's idea of beautiful is another's tragedy. My mother prefers wild growth. Her garden is a "mess" according to many books. But to her, it is natural and perfect. If you prune your child, you are creating that which _you_ think is beautiful, and the wildness within, which could be breathtaking, will not be seen.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Each time you feel discomfort (which is the key word), that is an opportunity to search for its foundations. To question yourself - is this safe? Is this necessary? Is this my belief, or one I follow to keep others comfortable? Etc. The process is the beauty of it, not necessarily the change or the result. We tend to stagnate as adults, and that is very sad. If somethin' ain't growin', its dyin'.

But, reading your posts, I think you already do this, and are a very open, daring person. I can't find much in your posts to disect, you are on a nice path.

Yes, I do this, although, the reminder is appreciated.

I was asking because I've only seen one naked child in a non-naked place (by non-naked I mean not the beach or garden, hippie festival and etc.) in my life ~ gotta love the Santa Cruz farmer's market! I really admire any parent who gets above this 'norm' but I've just never been able to do it myself. Oh, yea, we've gone with just diapers and DC wears all kinds of crazy clothes but stark naked at the mall is beyond me, unfortunately.

I agree that the process of reflecting on *why* you're asking or doing something is the most important thing.

Rules IN the house...we don't have many. I liked the link contrasting principals and rules. I read that to mean that if you 'enforce' principals than rules are unnecessary. I try to just have some encompassing 'principal' to draw from rather than individual rules.

Actually, it's good to be reminded of this as well...thanks!

On a side note, I have actually *forgotten* to dress DC when I took her to a non-naked place and I used to forget her shoes all the time but that's a much different type thought (or lack there of) process.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

[QUTOE]Originally Posted by sntm
I just see a difference between "you must color inside the lines" and "you can't color on the walls." I don't think my child is any less creative because I set some rules.[/QUOTE]

For me, I am just clear about *why* I don't want DC to draw on the wall. There is also the issue of honoring the idea to draw on the wall...kids are so fresh and unencumbered. I can totally see the value in nurturing the clarity and independence of their ideas.

I guess I didn't pick up on the idea that this topic was about traditional artistic creativity...is this a major component that I missed?


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

I guess I didn't pick up on the idea that this topic was about traditional artistic creativity...is this a major component that I missed?
not the OP, so can't speak for her, but I didn't think it was only about "art". Creativity comes in many forms and many aspects of life. It's by no means limited to drawing/painting, etc.

My sons use their creativity sometimes to sing what they want to say (can say they learned that honestly :LOL). It can be annoying when we're in the middle of the grocery store and they're singing to their heart's delight, but it's not HARMING anyone so we allow it without asking them to stop or whatever. They've taught themselves many aspects of language and music by doing this (singing what they're saying) and I can only see that it's benefited them.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"I guess I didn't pick up on the idea that this topic was about traditional artistic creativity...is this a major component that I missed?"
No, you got it. Traditional creativity (art, ect) is almost always embraced in a child. It is that other stuff that shows a creative thought process that I am mainly talking about. Creative thought solves riddles, builds pyramids, counsels addictions, saves lives, etc etc. Thinking outside the "square" is so much more than paint brushes and music. Although, it is also very much those things. Thinking outside the square is "the world is round" (he was damned for saying this), "this is my interpretation of a person" (Picasso was shamed for this), "clean hands before surgery" (was it Pasteur? He was ostracized for this). Oh boy, the list is never ending. See what I mean? History (and we are still writing it) has never looked fondly upon non-conventional thought processes. It starts in the cradle, our chance to allow an unencumbered brain stay as free of pre-conceived ideas and belief as possible, even if it is as simple as allowing a child to play with their food.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, did you read the Waldor article in Mothering from April or so? They addressed this issue quite well.

I agree and good examples!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I had another thought ~ about getting to the bottom of why a child wants to do something.

Take drawing on the walls...(although I first thought of this with standing on the table, maybe I'll do both)

Why is the child drawing on the wall?

-Is she out of paper?
-Does he like a large canvas?
-Does the texture of the surface create a nice design?
-Does she prefer to draw on a vertical surface?
-Does he think that wall needs some flare?
-Does she want to see what dad will do when she does that?

I find this interesting and helpful. It's not so much that you must allow these things but that discipline with some extra thought for the child's experience could lead to great things!

Right?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Calm

I don't let them choose their clothes when they are young because of cost and convenience

I do not swear. They know that I don't want to hear it, but that they can do it alone with their friends, although they know I believe it is wrong to ever name call

We have all sat together at the table since they were little. They were never dawdlers and certainly are not now

Complain is 'This is gross" Comment is "This is too spicy for me"
As you may recall, they NEVER have to eat anything they don't like, but no special meal will be made for them. They get desert no matter how little, or how much they ate.

No. I don't always do as they ask. I do quote my mom "Adulthood has it priveleges"


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

ICM - beautiful! That is YOU becoming creative! Love it!

Maya - thanks for clarifying, and your answers are perfect (for me, whatever that's worth). It is amazing when we dig deeper and question instead of jump to conclusions - your first post had me wondering - hmmmm, how strict is this woman? But now! Nooo, I see what you are saying, and this is a perfect example of why on these forums we should ask questions before we pass opinions. If i were to get picky, I could go into language use (gross, etc and why it offends) but as far as I am concerned, the important thing is that there is thought behind your direction, not just some willy nilly rules to prove you're boss. Many parents force their children to eat whatever they are given and put conditions on dessert, and this is one of the causes of eating disorders and obesity - the desire in adulthood to have control of their bodies and food.

I would like to know, from anyone, not just Maya, what it is about the finishing the meal together rule. It is a lovely practise, and shows consideration, but I thought that was mostly for restaurants. Sitting waiting for others to finish their meal would drive me bonkers, let alone if I were under 10 years old. Anyone?


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Sitting waiting for others to finish their meal would drive me bonkers, let alone if I were under 10 years old. Anyone?

When we eat DD can get down from her chair when she is getting "antsy"- i don't feel the need to torture her, or myself, by making her sit there. The rest of us hang out until we are ready to move out of the kitchen area, and she stays in there w/ us playing or visiting various people ( i have an extended family living situation).
When we're at a restaraunt, and she gets antsy, my dh or i will get up and walk around w/ her for awhile and then return to the table.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Calm

Let me just answer (though I certainly would like to hear from others)

For us the family meal is VERY important. We all come together and leave together (this was expected from about age 2 1/2). This is a time to talk as a family.

We always dissuss the best/worst thing about our days and then usually have a discussion topic. These can be anything from "What kind of party do you want for your next birthday" to "Why do you think people believe in God" to "What was the one thing you were most worried about this year, and how is that turning out" to "What is the one thing that you wish you could do, but you don't have the ability"

Our family meals are great fun. What our family views as good manners are taught at the table and then expected.

In general I tell people "I am very strict, but I don't punish"

Most people have no idea that this is even possible.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We only eat at the table maybe one night a week and beyond that only really for special occasions (sabbat/holiday dinners, company sometimes etc) and the rest of the time we eat wherever we want. We don't always eat at the same times though (dinner is made about 3 x a week) so eating together at the table would not work for my family. I do understand that this is a special time for many families though, and I think it's great.

Personally I would feel uncomfortable forcing a child to stay seated at the table after the point that she was comfortable there. It feels disrespectful, and it isn't something that I would appreciate having forced upon me. In a restaruant we also walked around to help our child work off the antsy feeling while waiting for food or whatever. We also were willing to leave if our child was just plain done.


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## kakies (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
" If you prune your child, you are creating that which _you_ think is beautiful, and the wildness within, which could be breathtaking, will not be seen. "


...that was beautifully put.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I have been watching this thread with interest...

I think a balance needs to be struck as with everything in life....I try to NOT do things just because and it's easy for me because I have that kind of personality myself...drove MY mother round the bend because she was a "just because" kind of parent.

We have routine...2 older girls in school, pets to be fed, a toddler, children's activities etc. If I didn't have a routine then things would get missed. We have rules but they mostly are safety issues..."do not cross the highway" for example

However...if Sophia uses crayons on the walls then that's fine...we have Goo Gone to wash it off and she helps me do that....she knows that what's on the walls is temporary but what's on papers she keeps...she is starting to write on paper more and more. She also colours on the floor. When we go places I take her washable crayons so if she happens to color on someone elses walls it comes off easy. Usually it's her grandparents so they don't care.

As to meals, we all sit together every evening...we do not put her in her high chair until we are all ready to sit down...her maximum time before she wants out is 20 minutes but daily it varies. She sits in my lap or her daddy's lap for dinner if we are not done before her patience in the highchair wears thin. She can get down and play but she usually doesn't want to.

I let her play the way she wants to play...I let her play with stones and dirt and bugs and whatever...as long as it's safe.

I don't change her clothes and I let her get messy...most stains come out...

Now as to complaining and such...this right now would apply to my older children...

If I or anyone else served them a meal and they said "this is gross" I would explain that that is there opinion and that everyone else likes it and that it hurts peoples feelings when they work hard at something and it's insulting.

Right now my older girls at 10 and 14, well they wouldn't do that. They are pretty good at knowing how to behave in public, in a restaurant etc. But they were pretty wild according to others when they were toddlers. I thought they were fun!

I think you have to direct them and model the behaviour you want and eventually it will come. They will see that they get approval for certain behaviour, disapproval for other in society and will adapt to that. And as long as my children are principled and not afraid to buck society when they need to it's ok to go along with society in general.

I think there are lots of people who are disciplining the creativity out of children but then there are others who just are directing the children to be creative in ways they can live with.

I think the schools discipline the creativity out of children but that is a whole other thread!


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
"More effective" is an interesting phrase. Mozart needed no guidance, in fact, if he got some, he may have turned out very differently. But, I intend on guiding DD's music in the years to come. She likes drums and keyboards, and my brother just happens to be a teacher of those.

No plant _needs_ constraints. There are vines and beans that cling to trees as they grow, and this can be likened to a child who uses a parent as a guide and strength. But pruning, cutting back, staking, etc, that was started by humans in an effort to create that which they believed was more appealing. Nature is perfect as it is, and one can see that in any wild forest where no intervention has occurred. Yes, nice neat gardens are beautiful, I have some myself, but who is deciding this? One person's idea of beautiful is another's tragedy. My mother prefers wild growth. Her garden is a "mess" according to many books. But to her, it is natural and perfect. If you prune your child, you are creating that which _you_ think is beautiful, and the wildness within, which could be breathtaking, will not be seen.

Interesting comments. With regards to the one on music, I would counter that for every Mozart, there may be dozens with the potential to be a Mozart if they had guidance in channeling their efforts. Not always having to reinvent the wheel, understand? Though, yes, I agree that sometimes reinventing the wheel may lead to unexpected advances, it also may waste time and energy. I'm glad to stand on the shoulders of giants and be guided by what has worked in the past.

The pruning example was thinking mostly about food-bearing and flowering plants. I have a lovely plant that produces beautiful flowers. When the flowers die, if they are left on the plant, the plant doesn't continue to flower. But if they are pruned off, the plant is freed to flower once more. There are beautiful wild plants, but there are also brambly wild plants.

Quote:

I think there are lots of people who are disciplining the creativity out of children but then there are others who just are directing the children to be creative in ways they can live with.
Yes, this was my main point. I'm sure there are people who do this, but just because I discipline my child, and have rules and guideline for behavior that others do not, does not mean that my children will be any less creative than those who run naked through the streets cursing gleefully!









I read the OP as a (mild, possibly not intentioned) slight against my slightly "pruned" but magnificent and creative child, implying that he had the creativity disciplined out of him (though, Calm, I have enjoyed your posts and hope you do not take offense.)


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## bionicsquirrel (Jan 2, 2003)

:


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Personally I would feel uncomfortable forcing a child to stay seated at the table after the point that she was comfortable there. It feels disrespectful, and it isn't something that I would appreciate having forced upon me. In a restaruant we also walked around to help our child work off the antsy feeling while waiting for food or whatever. We also were willing to leave if our child was just plain done.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"I read the OP as a (mild, possibly not intentioned) slight against my slightly "pruned" but magnificent and creative child, implying that he had the creativity disciplined out of him (though, Calm, I have enjoyed your posts and hope you do not take offense.)"

Are you judging me? I take great offense at that. JOKE JOKE JOKE!!!!

Sorry, just foolin' with ya. I don't take offense easily, I figure, if offense is offered, AND I TAKE IT, then that's MY fault, isn't it? And anyway, you didn't say anything remotely offensive!

With the Mozart analogy, I hoped with my comment that I was going to get lessons for my girl it would even it out. Tis true, that discipline and guidance are essentials for any reasonably functioning being. And no, there was no slight, if for no other reason than I haven't met your child, so I wouldn't have a clue if he is pruned or not. Just sort of went with your examples, if you know what I mean.

After thinking about this thread, I have realised I should have called it "Are we ignoring potential creativity in our children". As I think that is more in line with where I was going. I wanted to open other's eyes to catching glimpses of what could be perceived as annoying, repetitive, messy, anti-social behavior as creative - often, not always.

I have seen waaaaay too many undisciplined children, and it ain't pretty. Discipline, especially the kind that instills self-discipline, is fine. I want the world to change. I want certain things to be different for my child's generation. I would like parents to challenge their pre-conceived ideas and think like a child as often as possible. Let go of the strong hold of "adulthood" and "rules for no apparent reason" and "going with the general consensus".

Children will be creative regardless - can you tell I like children a little? But IRL, I see parents squishing and molding and directing and "NO!"-ing and stopping and so on and so forth, all the while, the parent doesn't see the method in their child's madness.

My niece walked over to her father and threw a bunch of leaves and twigs at him, right over his head and face. He admonished her, from the angle of "don't throw things at people." and she was "but dad..." and he was "No, Jade, you just don't do that!" As she sat on the floor, with a sullen look on her face, I said, "Hey small person, wanna throw leaves?" she said, "I'm not allowed." I said, "Well, we can throw leaves at other things, not just daddy." she said, "I don't want to sprinkle him anymore anyway!"
"Sprinkle, what do you mean, sprinkle?"
Jade said, "It was magic fairy dust, and I made a wish and sprinkled him. I couldn't find my fairy dust, so I used stuff from the garden."

It broke my heart. Yet another "disciplinary action" that totally missed the method in her madness. Sure, she shouldn't throw things at people, but he could at least have found out what she was doing. Right?

Go ahead and guide your children with my blessing, just don't miss the finer points of childhood on the journey. They are everywhere!
You guys are too crunchy anyway, trying to find fault in your disciplinary tactics is like trying to find a needle in the proverbial haystack. Someone give me something easy! LOL!


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

great post calm, esp the story about your niece.
those kinds of stories happen all the time, dapening spirits galore. it is very sad indeed.

i really try to watch for those moments of creativity that may be clouded by "wrong" behaviour. it teaches me to really be in each moment, and to communicate, and take nothing for granted.

oh, maya, dinner time is a impt time for my family too. we share lots of things, and enjoy each otrhers company. it is impt that we all enjoy it , not just the adults.

gotta go....


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## Laughingmommy (Oct 10, 2002)

Total tangent, but....

Speaking of Mozart, I've been thinking about how to encourage excellence in music (and other areas) in my children. I've decided that my conscience allows only this: that I offer myself as the role model. Mozart wouldn't have played the piano if he had no piano. So, I'll expose my kids to instruments, and art, and everything I think is great in the world. Including pruned trees and wild vines. And instead of finding a way to get my children to learn discipline, like in practicing violin for 1/2 hour a day, I would conduct these "classes" as sort of self-directed college courses, with no grades and final exams. What I've been doing is getting myself to sit down or stand up to practice whatever. To show them discipline in myself. This is really hard, and I'm not having success. But I'm convinced that this is the key. We gravitate towards passion. When I see someone passionate about playing piano, I want to play piano. Sometimes that inspiration is enough to carry me through months of practices. I hope to offer myself as a role model and a resource for my kids. I can show them technique, I can watch them practice, I can buy materials and equipment for them, but I can't make them practice. That's gotta be self-directed.

I feel like that about everything else. I can't force my kids to eat what I cook. But I can offer more possibilities. I can encourage kindness (i.e. no "this food is disgusting!") by showing them the natural consequences of mean-ness ("I feel hurt that you would call something I offered with time, labor, and love 'disgusting'"). Something like more guidance and less [parent-imposed] discipline.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

that I offer myself as the role model. Mozart wouldn't have played the piano if he had no piano.










Quote:

Including pruned trees and wild vines.










Quote:

To show them discipline in myself.










Quote:

I hope to offer myself as a role model and a resource for my kids.










Quote:

I can offer more possibilities.

















Quote:

I can encourage kindness (i.e. no "this food is disgusting!") by showing them the natural consequences of mean-ness ("I feel hurt that you would call something I offered with time, labor, and love 'disgusting'").

































You just blew my mind.


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## MyTwoAs (May 19, 2004)

I just have to hop in here







: I've just spent the last 30 minutes or so reading through this thread - very thought provoking. Thank you to everyone who's offered their opinions and experiences.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

I call it "picking my battles."








However, I do NOT allow my boys to stand on our furniture, ever. That's one battle that we need to win , in this house. But if you let your daughter do it, than so be it!


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Another person stopping in to thank everyone for the depth of this discussion...I just read throught this whole thread, too...I feel...inspired!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

i agree.

at home we paint on the walls.


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