# Fight or flight and "The bigger person"



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

OMG!! What an Easter I had. The history is that my FIL has stopped talking to me essentially about 3 years ago when he found out that we were "thinking about" homeschooling.
Essentially he would only talk to me if I talked to him. I always just played what others might call "the bigger person" by going in and saying hello and "happy (whatever holiday it might be) "
Today was different...I went in and FIL basically turned his back on me. He walked away. For whatever reasons..maybe hormones, maybe sleep deprivation, maybe the straw that broke the camel's back but I just felt my eyes well up with tears.
I walked outside and just started sobbing. I couldn't take it anymore, I know in my heart he has no right to treat me this way. I have at this point just so had it with his judgment.
So my husband came out and I told him about his father and how wrong it is and that I just can't handle it.
So DH went in and told his father that he was being rude and that he upset me.
MIL comes out and talks nicely to me telling me to ignore him that he is an old man just a big jerk. (Nice to get some support from MIL)
So I start walking inside with MIL and FIL is on the porch and says, "that's a good way to catch a cold"
As MIL walks in FIL closes the door so I can't go in. I thought he was going to say a fake apology and that would be that,
Instead he said, "You know I have no regard or friendliness towards you"
I said, "STOP..stop right there don't go on"

I just wanted to move on but instead he went to..
"I think you are a very confused girl..."
"I don't approve of the way you raise my grandkids..."
Then he went to attack me...reminding me of how I was not good enough for his family or his son.
Luckily my DH was standing up for me.
There was lots of back and forth but it was essentially he got to say horrible things to me and that was that if I did n;t want to make waves today.

It was hard decision as to whether to pack up my kids (Something would really upset them)
Or to just go back in and ignore him.

what would the bigger person do?


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

The bigger person would realize that her children are watching. The bigger person does not want her children watch her being abused by someone and keep taking it. The bigger person does not want her children to grow up and end up in an abusive relationship because they saw mom take it all the time. The bigger person wants her children to know that this treatment is unacceptable and she will protect herself and she not only has the right to stand up for herself and her children, but the responsibility to teach her children self preservation.

What do you want to teach your children to do in a similar situation? Let's say, abusive boyfriend in high school? To stay and try to fix the person? To ignore it and go on pretending all is fine?

His behavior was wrong and abusive and children learn to abuse and be abused by the modeling from their parents.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

BTW..you have an obligation to not expose your children to that man anymore. He stands to do way too much emotional damage. This kind of stuff is for the adults, not for children to have to manage and handle and reconcile. When he can be appropriate to you and your children, maybe. But unless he shows he is sorry and can behave, truely sorry, or at least truely understands he cannot do this, then you should not expose your children to him anymore. They are children. Protect the gift, preserve the childhood.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Thank you..the kids were not ear shot just so that is clear. we were outside they were inside.


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## SmoothieMom (Feb 12, 2009)

Good lord, what a terrible little man. All this hatred towards you because you are thinking about home schooling? Ugh!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Actually we are officially homeschooling now and it seems he never thought I was good enough for any them (I guess I'm from the wrong side of the tracks b/c I didn't grow up with money)


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## demottm (Nov 15, 2006)

I would leave. That is emotional abuse. He is trying to manipulate you into raising YOUR children the way he wants. I'm so sorry that your FIL is trying to be so controlling. I would send a stongly worded email or letter letting them know that you will raise your children how you see fit. FYI the MIL is not giving you support, she is enabling her husbands abuse of you. If everyone stood up to him and let him know that how he acts is unacceptable he would have no reason not to change or not wonder why you and your family choose not to be abused. Good luck.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Thank you..the kids were not ear shot just so that is clear. we were outside they were inside.


They have seen things. They will hear it eventually. They know how he treats you.

((((hugs)))) I have btdt with a nasty inlaw. The only thing you can do is protect yourself and your children. Sometimes, that means walking away. This is definitely a case for it.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

My grandmother always said don't let a man see you cry, it gives them power. I think this really applies to any bad person. They get joy out of seeing you cry..it gives them the power.

(((hugs))) again.


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## SmoothieMom (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Actually we are officially homeschooling now and it seems he never thought I was good enough for any them (I guess I'm from the wrong side of the tracks b/c I didn't grow up with money)

Even worse, he is a terribly small person. Is there anyway you could limit your exposure to him?


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I wanted to leave so badly but I didn't. I kept hearing just ignore and be the bigger person.
I told my husband that I didn't feel like the bigger person..The bigger person doesn't just let people walk all over you.
The bigger person is not a doormat..which I really was not. I laid into him good and he tried to change the subject when I made too much sense.
I at no point was trying to convince him about homeschooling just letting him know that he was being mean and I did stand up verbally for myself.
I just feel like staying was a mistake...but MIL went to a lot of work to make a nice Easter and the kids would not accepted just up and leaving. Not without a fit here and there.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmoothieMom* 
Even worse, he is a terribly small person. Is there anyway you could limit your exposure to him?

My exposure is very limited. I only go there on select holidays. My kids unfortunately go every Thursday when I work at night DH brings them.
MIL is not the greatest but she has made big strides in just letting me parent (something she had lots of trouble with)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

You have the right to just get up and walk out and leave any time he starts or is any bit rude to you. Your MIL seems fine - she can come visit you to see the kids or something. I'd just stop seeing him. He is toxic.

Edited to add that I know it's hard to just leave on Easter, but in my experience, you do something that big once, and he'll stop being so rude. I walked out on my toxic parents one Christmas and they've been at least somewhat less toxic since. Though I don't see them often anyway. I didn't want to punish dd so we went straight to a movie she'd been wanting to see.


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## maryeb (Aug 8, 2005)

I'm sorry, that would be so hard! If it had been me, I would have said my piece/peace and left. You are not being a bigger person by staying, IMO. You are a bigger person for forgiving his crappy behavior. But I agree you have the right to protect yourself and your children. I've btdt with my own mother. It came to a head when ds1 was about 16 months, poor thing was right there when we argued, or she argued and I told her to cut it out and just enjoy us. (She was so annoyed we were still nursing, ecing/cloth diapering, co sleeping, talking to ds like a normal human being, etc.) I packed up right away and left, it was a 2 hr. drive home but totally necessary to protect myself and boy. The next time we talked I gave her the option of either enjoying us, or just not spending time with us. Again, so sorry and good luck! It's great your dh is supportive. Mary


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

You said your DH was there during this. What did he do? You said he was standing up for you but why was he allowing the berating to continue if that was the case? Quite honestly, it's his responsibility to take care of his family and he failed epically today. There is no reason a husband should stand by and watch while his father tears into his wife in that way and there is no way he should allow it to continue on a regular basis. Your children may not have been on that porch today but they know what's going on. Kids are smart, they know a heck of a lot more than anyone ever gives them credit for. How do you know your FIL isn't saying stuff to them while they're there on Thurs.? Or saying snide remarks while they're around? I'm sorry but based on what you've said here your DH really needs to step up and do more to protect his family from such horrible attacks. There is no reason you have to handle this alone, this is his parents and he needs to stand beside you and present a united front to them.

There is no reason you need to continue to take that. If your FIL can't behave civilly towards you then you shouldn't continue to put yourself in that situation. Do you want your children to constantly turn their cheek and allow others walk all over them and trample on their beliefs and opinions? Or do you want them to be secure in their decisions and stand up for them, even if that means cutting toxic people out of their lives no matter what relation they are to them? Your FIL is toxic and is not worth the time of day.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

wow. I'm so sorry








I think you really handled that like "the bigger person". But if I were you I would never see him again.
I'm glad your dh is standing up for you, but I don't think he should expect you to ever visit with him again. I wouldn't let my kids around him either, that's what he wants, your kids without you.
I don't think you should be told to "ignore him". I think the whole family should tell him to shut-up. It doesn't matter how old he is, he doesn't deserve any respect.
Does your dh realize that his dad is being disrespectful to him, too, simply by being disrespectful to you?
I expect my family to treat my dh with respect whether they like him or not, simply because he is MY dh.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *demottm* 
FYI the MIL is not giving you support, she is enabling her husbands abuse of you. If everyone stood up to him and let him know that how he acts is unacceptable he would have no reason not to change or not wonder why you and your family choose not to be abused.

This is a good point. I absolutely think her *intention* was likely to be supportive, but in actuality, she failed to do what she intended.

My FIL is sometimes verbablly abusive to my MIL. They've been married for 50 years. Sometimes he lashes out at others as well. MIL tries to talk us all into just sucking it up and ignoring it, and I know that's been her "survival tactic" all these years, but that totally enables FIL.

The most toxic thing in my in-law's family is the unwritten rule that we should all pretend we don't have feelings or that others can't hurt us.

I know I drive my MIL up the wall because I refuse to abide this rule. Like your FIL, she has little regard for me and does not agree with choices I am making in parenting my children. Most of all, she can't stand me talking about my feelings or questioning anything. She's polite, but passive aggressive, and I'm not sure which I'd rather.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
I just feel like staying was a mistake...but MIL went to a lot of work to make a nice Easter and the kids would not accepted just up and leaving. Not without a fit here and there.

That's really tough, but personally, if I was looking on the day in retrospect, I think I'd have said it was a mistake not to leave as well. I would have not wanted to spend a holiday that way, and there is no reason that doing so should be expected of me. MIL can always visit our family on her own.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Pack up the kids, tell FIL "Until you can start acting like a decent human being, we will not involve ourselves in your life any longer", tell MIL who was at least trying to be nice that she is welcome to visit herself, and leave.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

P.S.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeanine123* 
How do you know your FIL isn't saying stuff to them while they're there on Thurs.? Or saying snide remarks while they're around?

I also had this thought. Given what you've shared, I am thinking I would be uncomfortable with my kids spending time with him.

And I see what people are saying about your husband too. In our house, I don't have to answer to any parenting questions/concerns from my ILs, and my dw doesn't have to answer to any parenting questions/concerns from my parents.

If my ILs didn't agree with us homeschooling, it would be my dw who would take responsibility for the decision to homeschool (regardless of her role in actuality) in regard to conversations with her parents. She would be the broken record: "I'm sorry you don't agree, but this is something _I_ have researched heavily and feel very strongly about. Ultimately, *I* get to make the decisions for my children that I see fit." She wouldn't even use the word "we" in these conversations. This is true for any parenting decision we make, whether it is more her decision or more my decision or something totally shared.

That said, I think you were right on the mark when you didn't let your FIL pull you into a debate over homeschooling. That's the bee in his bonnet right now, but the real issue is his behavior. Good for you for not letting him distract from the real issue.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

that is horrible. i'm so sorry mama


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

If it were me I would have as little contact with him as possible. I am sure your kids will grow up to be wonderful adults and that will speak for itself. The two of you have no obligation to each other. If he wants to act that way, you don't need him around. Your children will be better off as well if you let go of it and go on raising them the way you see fit.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

I definitely understand not wanting to cause a scene, ruin the kids' easter, ruin your MIL's event, etc, etc, etc. But now is the point of your husband needing to have a serious conversation with his father about unacceptable behavior towards you and what, if it were to happen again, it would mean in terms of your family's -- that is you, your husband, and your children's -- attendance at future holiday events.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm very sorry that this happened to you on what should have been an enjoyable holiday. I'd like to echo what MusicianDad said.

Also... I think it's very concerning that this has been allowed to continue for three years. Does your husband actually think it's okay to ask you to be around someone who treats you so poorly?


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Your husband should have packed you all up and left. Your husband is the one enabling this behavior. He shouldn't be going over there as long as they treat his family with such disregard. Your FIL has permission from your husband to treat you this way.

What's up with him that he can't stand up to his father? I'd refuse to let my offspring to go over there...if you're not good enough, neither are the children that you created.

I'm really upset at your husband in this situation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeanine123* 
You said your DH was there during this. What did he do? You said he was standing up for you but why was he allowing the berating to continue if that was the case? Quite honestly, it's his responsibility to take care of his family and he failed epically today. There is no reason a husband should stand by and watch while his father tears into his wife in that way and there is no way he should allow it to continue on a regular basis.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Your husband should have packed you all up and left.

Umm...wow. If dh tried to "pack us all up" and leave somewhere, whether his family's home or not, without a clear indication from me that I wanted to leave, I'd blow a gasket. I'm not a child, and it's not his decision whether I stay or leave. I have no idea what the OP decided to do, but if _she_ chose to stay, for her children's sake or whatever, I don't understand why people think her dh should have overruled her. This smacks of protecting the "little woman" to me, and I wouldn't put up with it for one second.

I think the OP and her dh need to have a serious conversation about whether they're going back there again. I, personally, wouldn't allow my children to spend time alone with someone who showed so little respect for my parenting - my mom did so, in error, and has always regretted it, because it had a very negative effect on all of us. That said, this is a decision that the OP needs to make, and her dh needs to back her up on, either way.

I don't know what the OP's dh did or said, either. But, all she said about it was that he was standing up for her, so I fail to understand why people are jumping all over him for not telling his wife to leave...


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Standing outside in tears because of his father's treatment of her is a pretty clear indication of being ready to leave. She only didn't because of it seeming to be too inconvenient.. Women aren't allowed to inconvenience others apparently in that family. "Little women" don't need to be protected, but he should never allow anyone to treat his family like that.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I'm sorry and that really blows. Frankly, if this is how he treats you then I can't imagine who would possibly expect you to spend any holiday (or time at all) with him. Nurture the relationship with your MIL with week day things when FIL is not around, and ignore FIL. He is a bully. You can not use logic, you can not make him feel bad about how he treats you. He does not care and probably enjoys having someone to kick around.

You know who you are, you know why you do what you do. You know yourself, your intentions, your children, and their needs far better than he does. Be confident (or at least look it). Ignoring only works if you can really truly put on an "Oh jeeze, I have a million other things I'd like to be doing is this guy still talking" kind of face and then move on. You know, go back in time to when you were a bored teenager and your parents were going on about something or another and you just wanted them to stop talking so you could get on with your life. I find this works AMAZINGLY well (even on strangers who want to make drive-by comments on your parenting). Disclaimer: certainly not all teenagers are like that, I certainly was









None of this matters because after this kind of Easter blow out, I would certainly just refuse to ever be around when he was. You don't have to make an announcment or a big thing of it, just stop going. Make other plans before they have a chance to suck you in. There's no reason all your major holidays should be handed over to him. It makes no sense. Perhaps a few years of spending holidays without his grandchildren won't change his mind, but maybe he'll learn to at least keep it to himself.

Somewhere around 2nd grade I figured out that bullies don't bother you if you really don't care about what they're saying. I mean really. You know you're a good mom, you know you're not hurting your kids, his saying it doesn't matter nor does his weird little opinion.

Good luck. I hate hate HATE to hear of people who have to (or think they have to) put up with this kind of constant bad treatment from other people. There's no reason NONE AT ALL to do it. You have no obligation to people who are hurting you and you certainly don't have to allow them access to your children because they're related.

ETA: I'm sorry my post is so long but this is such a hot issue with me. There is NO REASON to put up with this from anyone. The ONLY reason I can think of is if it's someone with like, dementia or something and they really no longer know what they're doing.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

Wow, I am so sorry you had to go through all that today. In your situation I probably would have stayed as well (depending on how DH reacted). I get caught up in the moment in situations like that and sort of end up caught like a deer in headlights trying to do "the right thing". Then I get home, or in the car and go through in my head all the things I should have/would have done/said. However, I would never go back there again and never see FIL again either without some major apologies on his part.
I think you and your DH need to have a serious talk about your nuclear family interacting with his extended family, even if it is just the kids and him. Others are right, if he talked to your face that way who knows what he says around them behind your back.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Standing outside in tears because of his father's treatment of her is a pretty clear indication of being ready to leave. She only didn't because of it seeming to be too inconvenient.. Women aren't allowed to inconvenience others apparently in that family. "Little women" don't need to be protected, but he should never allow anyone to treat his family like that.

This.

OP, *I* would have packed up the kids and left. I've done it before with dd, though not on a holiday. I've stormed out by myself on holidays (before dd). I cannot and will not let some







ruin my holiday with my daughter. I'm ready for a ruined holiday with dd. I've already planned what I will do. My plan is what a pp did--grab my kid and go to a movie...something fun so the day isn't ruined for us.

I continue to put us in toxic environments, out of obligation. Some encounters with said person are good. Some encounters with said person are toxic. I never know "which" person it's going to be. I keep trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Over and over. But, as soon as crap hits the fan, we flee.

If I stay, I will fight. The fight will not end if I am there. If I leave, the fight is over. I win (the bigger person).

Easier said than done, I know, but don't subject you or your kids to FIL.







Sorry you had a rotten Easter.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Standing outside in tears because of his father's treatment of her is a pretty clear indication of being ready to leave. She only didn't because of it seeming to be too inconvenient.. Women aren't allowed to inconvenience others apparently in that family. "Little women" don't need to be protected, but he should never allow anyone to treat his family like that.

I probably wouldn't take my kids away from a family celebration at Easter, either. That would be _my_ choice, not dh's. If dh ever chooses to decide that he knows what I want, and "packs us up" to leave _anywhere_, because he's decided that's what's best for me, all hell will break loose. I certainly wouldn't tolerate anyone criticizing him for thinking I can make up my own mind about whether I want to leave or not. I've struggled with the nonsensical idea that my male partner should protect me from myself most of my life, and I'd go nuts if someone criticized him for not doing so. Simple as that.

The thinking that her dh should have "packed them all up" is, imo, really, really patronizing to women, in general. If the OP would be okay with her dh making her decisions, that's her business, of course. I just think it's a bit much to jump all over a guy for _not_ doing so.

I've been in a very similar situation, although not with my in-laws. DH came to see me, when I left the group in tears. He talked to me. He supported me. I'd have torn his head off if he'd started packing up my stuff to leave, and/or told the children that we were leaving. I was very upset, and the person involved had treated me badly - but it was _my_ choice how I wanted to allocate my priorities, not dh's.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I think that debating what you should have done is counterproductive at this stage. I would focus, instead, on the future. My first step, after leaving that house, would be to arrange for your MIL to care for your children at your house, or to find another arrangement ASAP. As other PPs have pointed out, I would be very concerned about what he says about you to your children when you are not around. Then lay down the line about future visits. If he cannot be civil to you, then you should not be asked to put yourself and/or your children in that situation. Period. He does not have to like you, he does not have to be warm and fuzzy with you, he just needs to keep his opinions to himself and act like an adult. If he cannot manage that, then you need to cut him out of your lives.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Right, look at solutions for the future...good point. Have you read "Toxic Inlaws?" Maybe you should bring it to read next time your forced to hang out with them.LOL


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

He does not have to like you, he does not have to be warm and fuzzy with you, he just needs to keep his opinions to himself and act like an adult. If he cannot manage that, then you need to cut him out of your lives.
I so agree. IF you were good at kind of shutting him down and ignoring him, that would be one thing but it really sounds like he really knows how to get to you. Please let your children see that this is something no one should put up with. It breaks my heart to think of my daughter growing up and being tormented by one of her ILs for no good reason out of some misguided sense of obligation and that's what your children are learning.

If it helps, remember that it may not be forever. When he sees you're not going to take it, he may decide to keep it to himself and you can go back to limited contact and letting him have a relationship with your children.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
My exposure is very limited. I only go there on select holidays. My kids unfortunately go every Thursday when I work at night DH brings them.
MIL is not the greatest but she has made big strides in just letting me parent (something she had lots of trouble with)


Your dh should not be taking them over there on Thursdays. They should not be where you are not wanted. Seriously. You are making a huge mistake on that. DH can stay home and handle his own children. And your dh was wrong to keep telling YOU to be the bigger person and ignore it. That makes him part of the problem. He is not standing up for his family, he is being that abusive man's son...not his wife's husband.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Be the bigger person and cut him off cold. Direct all invitations directly to MIL alone and refuse to let the kids near him. He's not a safe person for them to be around if he can't behave like an adult.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Edited to add that I know it's hard to just leave on Easter, but in my experience, you do something that big once, and he'll stop being so rude.









: Make him scared to step on your eggshells.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've been in a very similar situation, although not with my in-laws. DH came to see me, when I left the group in tears. He talked to me. He supported me. I'd have torn his head off if he'd started packing up my stuff to leave, and/or told the children that we were leaving. I was very upset, and the person involved had treated me badly - but it was _my_ choice how I wanted to allocate my priorities, not dh's.

But what if your dh was disgusted with what was going on and didn't want to have his kids around that? Would he have to ask your permission to leave?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
But what if your dh was disgusted with what was going on and didn't want to have his kids around that? Would he have to ask your permission to leave?

Well, he actually does, as I'm the only driver in the family, but I know that's not what you meant.

No - if he wants to leave, he can leave. (I'm not sure what he wouldn't want his kids around, as the OP stated that the kids didn't hear any of this.) He doesn't have to ask my permission, any more than I have to ask his. However, "pack us all up" implies that he'd also be making _my_ decision for me, and that doesn't fly around here - ever.

What I object to isn't the idea that her dh might be disgusted enough with his father to walk out. I object to the slamming him, because he _didn't_. And, quite honestly, if I, as the person on the receiving end, chose to stay, for whatever reason, I'd be pretty PO'd at dh if _he_ took it upon himself to leave. Yeah - I know - it's his family, so he should do something. Fine. Everybody looks at it differently, and my way of looking at it is different from most people on this thread. Maybe the OP agrees with you all. I just know that, if I were the OP, I'd be just as angry at people criticizing my dh for not stomping on my autonomy as I would be at my FIL for acting like that.

If I were the OP, I'd have a long, hard talk with my dh, and I think I'd raise hell about the weekly visits when she's not there. Her FIL is obviously as toxic as it gets. I think her dh should also back her up, for sure. I just found the "pack us all up" phrasing extremely offputting, as dh doing that would be grounds for a huge fight around here.


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## pokeyrin (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma_mama* 
I think that debating what you should have done is counterproductive at this stage. I would focus, instead, on the future. My first step, after leaving that house, would be to arrange for your MIL to care for your children at your house, or to find another arrangement ASAP. As other PPs have pointed out, I would be very concerned about what he says about you to your children when you are not around. Then lay down the line about future visits. If he cannot be civil to you, then you should not be asked to put yourself and/or your children in that situation. Period. He does not have to like you, he does not have to be warm and fuzzy with you, he just needs to keep his opinions to himself and act like an adult. If he cannot manage that, then you need to cut him out of your lives.

Totally agree, if your FIL openly treats you with such disrespect to your face and in front of your MIL and DH, I can't imagine he hides his contempt for you in front of your children. Personally I would not allow my children to have contact with anyone who would treat me that way in front of them or not.

This isn't about fight, flight or being the bigger person. It's about not subjecting yourself to his abuse and it is abuse however your DH and MIL want to paint it. They are enabling this abuse by allowing him to treat you this way without serious action on their part. While your MIL has the misfortune of being married to this toxic man, your DH seriously needs to step up and defend his wife and demand that you be treated with courtesy because that is common decency. But you need to be the one who draws that boundary line by letting them know that his behavior is unacceptable and you won't subject yourself to that kind of treatment which means cutting FIL out of your life. He'll only get away with this abusive behavior if you allow it.

My heart really ached when I read your post.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Pack up the kids, tell FIL "Until you can start acting like a decent human being, we will not involve ourselves in your life any longer", tell MIL who was at least trying to be nice that she is welcome to visit herself, and leave.

This!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Umm...wow. If dh tried to "pack us all up" and leave somewhere, whether his family's home or not, without a clear indication from me that I wanted to leave, I'd blow a gasket. I'm not a child, and it's not his decision whether I stay or leave. I have no idea what the OP decided to do, but if _she_ chose to stay, for her children's sake or whatever, I don't understand why people think her dh should have overruled her. This smacks of protecting the "little woman" to me, and I wouldn't put up with it for one second.

I understand and agree with your idea in general, but not in this specific instance. The OP was allowing her FIL to mistreat her, clearly and repeatedly. Her kids were there, and believe you me they know EXACTLY how their grampa feels about their mom. The OP made a choice - that while I hear her was for the sake of family harmony and a "nice" Easter dinner - was also VERY damaging to her and to her kids. And hurtful for her dp to witness his own father mistreat his wife that way. Standing up for yourselves or not, you don't let someone treat you that way then sit down and ask to pass the potatoes.







:

Her dp should have told his father off, supported his wife and kids by taking them out of that environment - which I would assume is what the OP wanted to do too, but was trying not to rock the boat. It wouldn't have been against her will! They should both have been so outraged that neither one would want to stay! And to allow kids around that man is just beyond me.

Toxic in-laws is a term tossed around here a bit too easily IMO - but it fits her FIL. I would not let my kids go there on Thursdays for one more day. That is just crazy! If he will say these kinds of things to you when you are there, I cannot IMAGINE how bad he talks about you when you aren't there to defend yourself. Your poor kids...









Few questions...

How old are the kids?
How close do MIL and FIL live to you?
What does your dp think you should do about this?
Why are you continuing to see FIL?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, he actually does, as I'm the only driver in the family, but I know that's not what you meant.

No - if he wants to leave, he can leave. (I'm not sure what he wouldn't want his kids around, as the OP stated that the kids didn't hear any of this.) He doesn't have to ask my permission, any more than I have to ask his. However, "pack us all up" implies that he'd also be making _my_ decision for me, and that doesn't fly around here - ever.

What I object to isn't the idea that her dh might be disgusted enough with his father to walk out. I object to the slamming him, because he _didn't_. And, quite honestly, if I, as the person on the receiving end, chose to stay, for whatever reason, I'd be pretty PO'd at dh if _he_ took it upon himself to leave. Yeah - I know - it's his family, so he should do something. Fine. Everybody looks at it differently, and my way of looking at it is different from most people on this thread. Maybe the OP agrees with you all. I just know that, if I were the OP, I'd be just as angry at people criticizing my dh for not stomping on my autonomy as I would be at my FIL for acting like that.

If I were the OP, I'd have a long, hard talk with my dh, and I think I'd raise hell about the weekly visits when she's not there. Her FIL is obviously as toxic as it gets. I think her dh should also back her up, for sure. I just found the "pack us all up" phrasing extremely offputting, as dh doing that would be grounds for a huge fight around here.

Just gonna say that I agree with you one the "pack us all up" thing. No way DH would walk away from making my decions for me. The same goes for me make his decisions for him. I likely wouldn't choose to stay in the situation mentioned by the OP, but if for some reason I did, DH doesn't have the resposibility or the right to "pack us up" up. He can leave, he can't nor shouldn't make me leave.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I didn't read the other replies yet (I see there are lots!) but I wanted to say something. I am sorry this is happening to you, and I understand how upsetting it is. I have heard similar things from my own family, including my mom. Please, do not let it happen any more. Stand up for yourself and your children, or if your husband's family is unable to respect you and the way in which you choose to raise your kids, cut contact. I can see this progressively getting worse, not better. Your FIL sounds like a terrible UAV, and you won't be able to change him or his views. You can, however, make sure you don't get exposed to him or his views, by cutting him out of your life. Whether that would be "depriving" your kids of their grandfather? Well, yes and no. Personally, I think you would be doing them a favor. How does your DH see the whole situation? Other than standing up for you this easter, what are his views?


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh, and is there any way at all to find alternative childcare arrangements for the Thursday evening?


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
This!!

Few questions...

How old are the kids?
How close do MIL and FIL live to you?
What does your dp think you should do about this?
Why are you continuing to see FIL?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Oh, and is there any way at all to find alternative childcare arrangements for the Thursday evening?

My kids are 6 1/2 and 3 (4 in june)
they live about 20 minutes from us
My Dh would like me to be able to ignore him as everyone else does. See they were raised and abused by him and know how to just turn it off and not let him get to them. They roll their eyes and walk away..that is not me! I fought with him and he even said, "Hey the neighbors don't want to hear all of this" to which I said,
"Maybe they do. It might be pretty exciting







"

and I did walk out on them several years ago on Mother's day when they laid into me about homeschooling. It was at a restaurant and I took my kids and my husband and left. I told them, at the time, that I would not keep them from seeing their grandkids but they had to come to my home to do so.
They did not see their grandkids (We have the only ones) for 6 mos.
Finally MIL met me at park and we agreed to disagree and life was rocky but did get smoother after time with her. (Yes she does still annoying things like trying to sneak TV watching with my kids..but mostly it was stuff I could work around)
So after that FIL was mostly quiet to me..not doing anything. Over the years I have gotten DH to the point where he does defend me but it is still not perfect. He is still afraid of that man wont leave him his inheritance and I think he also some kid fear of him.
I am working out solutions in my head and my first step is that from now on I will now have all holidays in my own home.
the Thursday night thing will be tricky so I need to really work that out. It isn't childcare b/c DH goes, too. It's just a visit and DH does laundry and they have dinner.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

There's a difference between being the bigger person and being a doormat, and if your MIL was telling you to be the bigger person in that situation, thinking that meant you needed to just ignore him, she doesn't have a healthy grasp on the concept. The petty person would rip into him for every fault he's ever shown, whether or not it's related to the subject at hand. The bigger person would address his attacks head-on and tell him in no uncertain terms that he was acting unacceptably and until he could behave like an adult and stop being abusive, he would not be welcome in your lives. The bigger person would manage to set some healthy boundaries without screaming obscenities or acting like a drama queen -- she would use her "big girl" voice and her words, as I tell myself when I really just want to swear and throw things.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Bah on being the "bigger person". This piss poor excuse for a man belittled you, humiliated you, and you are supposed to suck it up and take it? Um...hell no.

Be glad I wasn't there with you.

If one of my inlaws were so abusive, I would have let loose a verbal assault the likes of which he/she would probably never see again. I would have told the offender that I didn't care what they thought of me, how I raise MY children, or anything else. That they don't get a say and their opinion doesn't matter. That they need to grow the hell up and either act like an adult, or they will not see my children.

I say that the time for niceties is over. He feels free to berate you, so let him have it if the opportunity presents itself again.

I also take issue with the fact that your DH takes your kids to see the man who treats his children's mother like dirt. I don't care if he does take up for you. That is nice, but he should demand that his father either treat you with respect or he doesn't see the kids. If my mother had acted so horribly toward my husband, there would be hell to pay. I don't care if my family of origin likes my husband or not, they will treat him with respect.

Don't be fooled. Kids always know what is going on. I mean, FIL hates you. What will stop him from mistreating your children?


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Umm...wow. If dh tried to "pack us all up" and leave somewhere, whether his family's home or not, without a clear indication from me that I wanted to leave, I'd blow a gasket. I'm not a child, and it's not his decision whether I stay or leave. I have no idea what the OP decided to do, but if _she_ chose to stay, for her children's sake or whatever, I don't understand why people think her dh should have overruled her. This smacks of protecting the "little woman" to me, and I wouldn't put up with it for one second.

I think the OP and her dh need to have a serious conversation about whether they're going back there again. I, personally, wouldn't allow my children to spend time alone with someone who showed so little respect for my parenting - my mom did so, in error, and has always regretted it, because it had a very negative effect on all of us. That said, this is a decision that the OP needs to make, and her dh needs to back her up on, either way.

I don't know what the OP's dh did or said, either. But, all she said about it was that he was standing up for her, so I fail to understand why people are jumping all over him for not telling his wife to leave...

I said nothing about her DH packing them all up and leaving so please don't hang that on me. I'm merely stating that it's HIS family and as such he should be the one dealing with them instead of leaving it up to the wife that the FIL has already made clear he dislikes and does not respect. Maybe I'm odd but my DH deals with his family, especially if a matter such as this were to arise, not me. And I deal with my family, especially if a matter such as this were to arise, not him. Why should I have to be the one to lay down the law with his family?


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

As someone who always has to the bigger person when it comes to family, the bigger person would suck it up and deal with it BUT the better person would not let someone else treat them this way. They have no right to say that you and if they can't respect you and continue to treat you that way especially with the kids around, I would no longer see them and I would not let me kids be a part of their lives b/c I would fear what they would say behind your back. Sometimes you have to realize that bigger does not always equal better.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Honestly, I don't think there's any reason to review and relive yesterday. think I'd make a plan going forward that my children would not be exposed to this person, and that I would not be exposed to him.

I would explain to them- rationally- that because of his inappropriate behavior,you are forced to choose to protect yourself and family from further abuse. You will no longer be spending time with them, and they will no longer have access to the children.

Being a doormat isn't being the bigger person. Being able to stand up for yourself without engaging him is.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Bah on being the "bigger person". This piss poor excuse for a man belittled you, humiliated you, and you are supposed to suck it up and take it? Um...hell no.

Be glad I wasn't there with you.

If one of my inlaws were so abusive, I would have let loose a verbal assault the likes of which he/she would probably never see again. I would have told the offender that I didn't care what they thought of me, how I raise MY children, or anything else. That they don't get a say and their opinion doesn't matter. That they need to grow the hell up and either act like an adult, or they will not see my children.

I say that the time for niceties is over. He feels free to berate you, so let him have it if the opportunity presents itself again.

I also take issue with the fact that your DH takes your kids to see the man who treats his children's mother like dirt. I don't care if he does take up for you. That is nice, but he should demand that his father either treat you with respect or he doesn't see the kids. If my mother had acted so horribly toward my husband, there would be hell to pay. I don't care if my family of origin likes my husband or not, they will treat him with respect.

Don't be fooled. Kids always know what is going on. I mean, FIL hates you. What will stop him from mistreating your children?

I was hunting through the thread for where TinkerBelle responded because I knew she would say what I wanted to say so I didn't have to type as much around the nursing baby.

Oh, and you only see your FIL on select holidays? So you are saying that he only gets to make your holidays miserable? Is that really a win?


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

s
Hugs to both the OP and her hubby. It is very very hard to confront a parent that you have been abused by. At 36 years old I am still scared of confronting my dad.

Quote:

How do you know your FIL isn't saying stuff to them while they're there on Thurs.? Or saying snide remarks while they're around?
I could bet my life on it that he does. And the older the kids get the worse it will be. I promise you. My MIL is like this. She once pulled 12 year old nephew aside and told him "if your parents ever slap you then you call me. It is against the law for them to ever hit you" And then not 20 minutes later when nephew was out of the house she told bro and sis-in-law "he keeps acting out. You need to control him and put him straight. Just hit him. Hit him right in the face. Don't let him get away with it"

She has also gone into stages where she will insult the children because they are half white (or rather have me). (not to their faces but we stopped contact so she will never have the chance)

You are at a very hard spot right now. I remember being there. The only difference is that MIL would insult and say nasty things to other people about me. If DP had heard everything it would have been easier and quicker to kick her out of our lives.

First decision was for ME to stop contact. I never stopped DP or kids from going over there. They too would hang out on the one day a week that I worked. But then I started to hear from SIL what she was doing and saying about me.
Poo finally hit the fan when DP confronted MIL. The kids are no longer allowed to see her. DP has gone over a few times to help her to fix a fence or tile the tub but the kids don't go over.

Another







to you.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Lord.....my pregnant, hormonal a$$ would have packed up and left.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeanine123* 
I said nothing about her DH packing them all up and leaving so please don't hang that on me.

I never said that you did. I quoted _two_ people in my initial post, and the other one said that.

Quote:

I'm merely stating that it's HIS family and as such he should be the one dealing with them instead of leaving it up to the wife that the FIL has already made clear he dislikes and does not respect. Maybe I'm odd but my DH deals with his family, especially if a matter such as this were to arise, not me. And I deal with my family, especially if a matter such as this were to arise, not him. Why should I have to be the one to lay down the law with his family?
I see these situations differently than a lot of people do, and I don't expect dh to lay down the law to his family. I think the OP needs to make it clear to her dh that she will not expose herself to his father again, and he can figure it out from there.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I believe you can choose not to "take offense", and that whatever he said is a glimpse about *him* and his value system, not a reflection of you. I tell our son, 'Others don't have to agree with you for you to believe you are right.' He can get stuck when someone says 'the Pokemon xyz is pronounced abc', for instance. He doesn't have to believe or agree with their beliefs. Nor do his beliefs that XYZ is "true" have to agree with mine, about whatever.

We can all believe whatever we want to believe, doesn't make it "true" for another person, imo. You could restate what he says, so that he feels heard. You don't have to change anything which doesn't affect him. Perhaps, you could *inquire*, "How would you like it to be?" and again validate and restate. Like when ds says it will snow tomorrow, I can restate 'You believe it will snow tomorrow.' Doesn't mean I *agree* with that belief.

The book *"Loving What Is"*, or doing Byron Katie's "The Work" helps to move through our beliefs that something "should be" other than it is. I find that wanting reality to be different than it is causes me pain and suffering. I have compassion that your FIL is choosing to inflict that upon himself. That must be hard for him. But, it ain't about you. Your actions don't impact his beliefs, only he has that power. Similarly, his actions don't impact your beliefs about yourself or about him, only you have that power.

It feels much more empowered when we recognize that WE control our own thoughts and thus our reactions about events. It seems that FIL feels disempowered _by his belief_ that *you* can control his happiness. He is choosing to be unhappy. Another book which I found helpful in making this transition is *"Happiness Is A Choice"*. Maybe gift him with it.









Pat


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I would have packed the kids up and left. Dh could do what he wanted (though to be fair, if he stayed, he would have got an earful at home later).

Mind you, I wouldn't have been there in the first place, having been ignored for so long - I'd have given it once, maybe twice of being ignored, then the kids and I would no longer be there.

And dh would have not been allowed to bring the kids. It's my job to protect my kids from toxic people, and no one gets to over rule that.

And for the record, we live this now - we haven't seen dh's only relatives here in 8 years due to the way his sil treated me, and I refuse to expose my kids to it.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Just gonna say that I agree with you one the "pack us all up" thing. No way DH would walk away from making my decions for me. The same goes for me make his decisions for him. I likely wouldn't choose to stay in the situation mentioned by the OP, but if for some reason I did, DH doesn't have the resposibility or the right to "pack us up" up. He can leave, he can't nor shouldn't make me leave.

here is my take on it.

First off, this is HIS family, so he has an obligation to make sure his wife is treated well/is enjoying the visit. It is a lot harder for her to defend herself with his family, than it is for him to defend her.

Secondly, it is clear from the OP that she doesn't feel that she has the right to leave, especially not with the kids on a holiday. In many ways, as mentioned by PPs, women are trained to not rock the boat or inconvenience anyone else. Men are not trained in the same way. And they are encouraged to defend their loved ones.

So it may have been psychologically easier for her husband to say "that is it, I won't condone this behavior" and - assuming the wife is in agreement - pack them all up and leave. Because by taking this action, he is giving HER permission to be defended. And saying very clearly to his family that this treatment will not be condoned.

I can say this because one of the first things my dh did (when we were engaged) was defend me to my own father. Instead of being patronizing, the message sent was "when you mess with her, you mess with me too, and I won't tolerate it". It was wonderful and made me realize that this was a man who would look out for my best interests - even when I could not recognize them for myself. And he did it with respect for me as an individual.

We teach people how to treat us - and our extended community either supports or undermines these lessons.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 

We teach people how to treat us - and our extended community either supports or undermines these lessons.

Good Statement


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
here is my take on it.

First off, this is HIS family, so he has an obligation to make sure his wife is treated well/is enjoying the visit. It is a lot harder for her to defend herself with his family, than it is for him to defend her.

Secondly, it is clear from the OP that she doesn't feel that she has the right to leave, especially not with the kids on a holiday. In many ways, as mentioned by PPs, women are trained to not rock the boat or inconvenience anyone else. Men are not trained in the same way. And they are encouraged to defend their loved ones.

So it may have been psychologically easier for her husband to say "that is it, I won't condone this behavior" and - assuming the wife is in agreement - pack them all up and leave. Because by taking this action, he is giving HER permission to be defended. And saying very clearly to his family that this treatment will not be condoned.

I can say this because one of the first things my dh did (when we were engaged) was defend me to my own father. Instead of being patronizing, the message sent was "when you mess with her, you mess with me too, and I won't tolerate it". It was wonderful and made me realize that *this was a man who would look out for my best interests - even when I could not recognize them for myself*. And he did it with respect for me as an individual.

We teach people how to treat us - and our extended community either supports or undermines these lessons.

So, he has an obligation to defend her, because it's her family, but your dh should also defend you against _your_ family?

To each their own. If dh ever says one word to anybody in my family about how they interact with _me_, all hell will break loose. And, the sentence I bolded would make me run like a rabbit. It's not up to dh to look after my best interests. I'm not a child.

Anyway - I guess the OP should just her dh take care of it, whichever family it is. Because, despite what you said at the beginning of this post, the rest of your post suggests that you think he should just defend her, no matter what, because the poor little woman isn't socialized to be a grown-up.

I wouldn't leave a family event that my children were enjoying, either. It has nothing to do with not having the "right" to do so. That would be my choice. Despite being a poor, pathetic, poorly trained woman, I'm capable of setting my own priorities.

I'm bowing out. This thread makes me sick. God forbid dh doesn't treat me like a pathetic little girl who can't look after her own best interests...because if he doesn't, he'll be subject to criticism for not being a "real man". Ugh. I really thought we'd outgrown this.


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## annamama (Sep 23, 2005)

I would not go there ever again - neither would my child(ren). Frankly, I would expect DH to tell him that whilst they're all used to dancing round him, his behaviour isn't something that anyone should have to tolerate.
I can't express myself properly - I'm too cross for you.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
here is my take on it.

First off, this is HIS family, so he has an obligation to make sure his wife is treated well/is enjoying the visit. It is a lot harder for her to defend herself with his family, than it is for him to defend her.

Secondly, it is clear from the OP that she doesn't feel that she has the right to leave, especially not with the kids on a holiday. In many ways, as mentioned by PPs, women are trained to not rock the boat or inconvenience anyone else. Men are not trained in the same way. And they are encouraged to defend their loved ones.

So it may have been psychologically easier for her husband to say "that is it, I won't condone this behavior" and - assuming the wife is in agreement - pack them all up and leave. Because by taking this action, he is giving HER permission to be defended. And saying very clearly to his family that this treatment will not be condoned.

I can say this because one of the first things my dh did (when we were engaged) was defend me to my own father. Instead of being patronizing, the message sent was "when you mess with her, you mess with me too, and I won't tolerate it". It was wonderful and made me realize that this was a man who would look out for my best interests - even when I could not recognize them for myself. And he did it with respect for me as an individual.

*We teach people how to treat us* - and our extended community either supports or undermines these lessons.

Maybe we need to stop expecting the man to defend the woman and start expecting the woman to defend herself. Women don't need protecting, they are fully capable of doing it for themselves. They also don't need someone to look out for their best interest, like storm bride said, a woman is not a child.

The bolded is right, _we_ teach people how to treat us. Other people don't teach people how to treat us.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Maybe we need to stop expecting the man to defend the woman and start expecting the woman to defend herself. Women don't need protecting, they are fully capable of doing it for themselves. They also don't need someone to look out for their best interest, like storm bride said, a woman is not a child.

The bolded is right, _we_ teach people how to treat us. Other people don't teach people how to treat us.


This statement makes me kind of dizzy with disbelief. Sure, people should feel empowered to stick up for themselves when they are being verbally attacked and abused, but when that abuse is coming from an in-law I think it is morally reprehensible for the other spouse to stand their mutely and do nothing while their parent is going after their wife/husband like that. Family dynamics get so complicated where in-laws are concerned, and I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that the actual child of that in-law may need to step up and lay down the law with their parent in order for the words to be heard and respected. I'm very surprised that some here have a hard time seeing that the FIL doesn't consider the OP to be family in the first place, and that he doesn't care one way or the other what she may have to say.

It sounds like the OP's FIL has been verbally abusing his wife and kids his entire life and that they have put up with that abuse without little, if any, resistance. The OP's husband is now asking her to let that cycle of abuse continue unabated, and by extension he is also asking his wife to let herself be abused by this man. That's just not acceptable. I honestly don't think anything will change with this dynamic unless and until the husband stands up for both himself and the family he has now with his wife.

(Btw, my personal frame of reference involves a very contentious history with my own FIL. It didn't matter what I said to stand up for myself with him, he simply didn't care. The nonsense only came to an end once my husband told him in no uncertain terms to stop if he wanted to continue having a relationship with husband or our kids.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
This statement makes me kind of dizzy with disbelief. Sure, people should feel empowered to stick up for themselves when they are being verbally attacked and abused, but when that abuse is coming from an in-law I think it is morally reprehensible for the other spouse to stand their mutely and do nothing while their parent is going after their wife/husband like that.

I didn't realize the OP's dh was doing that. When she said he was standing up for her, I assumed that mean the _wasn't_ standing their mutely, yk?


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I didn't realize the OP's dh was doing that. When she said he was standing up for her, I assumed that mean the _wasn't_ standing their mutely, yk?

I was responding more generally to the notion that women don't need their men to defend them, and that they should defend themselves. In my mind, that sounds an awful lot like telling the OP that her husband would have been perfectly justified to walk away from that entire exchange and to have left it up to her to resolve (or not) the situation with her FIL.

While I agree the OP should have been free to tell off her FIL, I still think that her husband had an ever greater duty to put his father in his place once and for all.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This isn't a man/woman thing. My parents have been rude to my dh and I stand up for him and tell them off. It's about whose parents are the problem, not which partner is male or female.


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I probably wouldn't take my kids away from a family celebration at Easter, either. That would be _my_ choice, not dh's. If dh ever chooses to decide that he knows what I want, and "packs us up" to leave _anywhere_, because he's decided that's what's best for me, all hell will break loose. I certainly wouldn't tolerate anyone criticizing him for thinking I can make up my own mind about whether I want to leave or not. I've struggled with the nonsensical idea that my male partner should protect me from myself most of my life, and I'd go nuts if someone criticized him for not doing so. Simple as that.

The thinking that her dh should have "packed them all up" is, imo, really, really patronizing to women, in general. If the OP would be okay with her dh making her decisions, that's her business, of course. I just think it's a bit much to jump all over a guy for _not_ doing so.
I've been in a very similar situation, although not with my in-laws. DH came to see me, when I left the group in tears. He talked to me. He supported me. I'd have torn his head off if he'd started packing up my stuff to leave, and/or told the children that we were leaving. I was very upset, and the person involved had treated me badly - but it was _my_ choice how I wanted to allocate my priorities, not dh's.


See though, it's more a generic loyalty to one's spouse. When my toxic relative lambasted my DH, you better believe I tore into her (pre kids, no littles around) and we left. Dh was willing to stay, but I was not having anyone disrespect my spouse like that. Part of showing the toxic idiot that their bullying is totally not okay.

OP, I'm so sorry. Never let that happen to you again... and keep your kids away from him. He has zero boundaries and no respect for you as their mother. Warning warning warning.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I disagree. If dh's parents are rude to me, I'm perfectly capable of telling them off and/or avoiding contact for myself. DH is equally capable of holding his own with my family (actually, I think he deals with my brother better than I do).

I don't know. If dh's family treated me like the OP's FIL treats her (and I can't even begin to imagine any of them acting like that - my ex's family, to some extent, but not dh's), I'd stop having any contact with them at all. I'd have stayed for Easter, but I wouldn't go back - ever. DH could then figure out how he wanted to handle it on his end.

I always expect dh to back me up. If I cut off his family, I'd expect him to accept that, pass it on to them, and not put pressure on me to resume contact. I would _not_ expect him to cut off contact on my behalf, if I hadn't even made that decision for myself. I would, in fact, be furious if he did that. Others see it differently - to me, it's a clear message that he needs to look out for me, because I can't do it for myself.

Oh - and it is a man/woman thing, to at least one poster. I think there were at least two who mentioned the whole "women aren't trained to make waves" thing. Well...if I'm willing to be a doormat so that I don't make waves, that's my problem, not dh's.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Jesse* 
See though, it's more a generic loyalty to one's spouse. When my toxic relative lambasted my DH, you better believe I tore into her (pre kids, no littles around) and we left. Dh was willing to stay, but I was not having anyone disrespect my spouse like that. Part of showing the toxic idiot that their bullying is totally not okay.

As I say, to each their own. If dh had done that, in your shoes, he'd have had an earful from me later. Some people appreciate that kind of "support" (as is obvious from this thread). Some don't.

I really don't care what the OP's dh does. That's between them.What bothers me is the criticism leveled against him. Maybe the OP feels the same way, in which case she and her dh need to work things out. I just find it annoying to see a guy being raked over the coals for not protecting his little woman, as I could see dh not doing so, _because_ he knows it would annoy the heck out of me. Different people see this differently, and I don't want dh criticized for not being enough of a man because he refuses to patronize me.

And, yes - this thread has people in it saying that women need to be protected by their men, because we poor little women can't do it ourselves, because we haven't been "trained". (Of course, with parents like his, the OP's dh has probably not been "trained" to defend his loved ones, either, but he has a penis, so he's supposed to do it, anyway. I guess it's just too much for our tired, sad little female brains.)


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

And, yes - this thread has people in it saying that women need to be protected by their men, because we poor little women can't do it ourselves, because we haven't been "trained". (Of course, with parents like his, the OP's dh has probably not been "trained" to defend his loved ones, either, but he has a penis, so he's supposed to do it, anyway. I guess it's just too much for our tired, sad little female brains.)


I bet that people on this topic that say that DP needs to deal with it are not saying it because he has a penis.







They say that because it is HIS family. Just as if I was with _my_ family and they started in on my DP then I would feel like it was totally MY place to let them have it.

Quote:

because we poor little women can't do it ourselves, because we haven't been "trained".
Did I miss some postings or are you just putting words into peoples mouths with huge assumptions?

Quote:

This isn't a man/woman thing. My parents have been rude to my dh and I stand up for him and tell them off. It's about whose parents are the problem, not which partner is male or female.
yes to this.

Quote:

See though, it's more a generic loyalty to one's spouse. When my toxic relative lambasted my DH, you better believe I tore into her (pre kids, no littles around) and we left. Dh was willing to stay, but I was not having anyone disrespect my spouse like that. Part of showing the toxic idiot that their bullying is totally not okay.
and yes again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh* 
I bet that people on this topic that say that DP needs to deal with it are not saying it because he has a penis.







They say that because it is HIS family. Just as if I was with _my_ family and they started in on my DP then I would feel like it was totally MY place to let them have it.

Did I miss some postings or are you just putting words into peoples mouths with huge assumptions?

Here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Standing outside in tears because of his father's treatment of her is a pretty clear indication of being ready to leave. She only didn't because of it seeming to be too inconvenient.. *Women aren't allowed to inconvenience others apparently in that family.* "Little women" don't need to be protected, but he should never allow anyone to treat his family like that.

It sounds as though nobody is allowed to cross FIL, which isn't a gender issue. It's a toxicity issue. I've known more than a few women who are the same way. However, the conclusion that it's because "women aren't allowed to inconvenience others" was promptly jumped to.

And...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Secondly, it is clear from the OP that she doesn't feel that she has the right to leave, especially not with the kids on a holiday. In many ways, as mentioned by PPs, *women are trained to not rock the boat or inconvenience anyone else. Men are not trained in the same way.* And they are encouraged to defend their loved ones.

I also have no idea how this would even apply in the family dynamic described by the OP:

Quote:

So it may have been psychologically easier for her husband to say "that is it, I won't condone this behavior" and - assuming the wife is in agreement - pack them all up and leave.
The OP's dh has been "trained" not to rock the boat. That's not going to make "psychologically easier" for him to stand up to his family.

And, then this, which completely contradicts the whole "it's _his_ family, so it's his responsibility" thing:

Quote:

I can say this because one of the first things my dh did (when we were engaged) was defend me to my own father. Instead of being patronizing, the message sent was "when you mess with her, you mess with me too, and I won't tolerate it". It was wonderful and made me realize that this was a man who would look out for my best interests - even when I could not recognize them for myself. And he did it with respect for me as an individual.
Sure - some posters here believe the "his family, his responsibility" thing. But, some of them also quite obviously believe that we poor little women need a big, strong man to look after us...and that our societal training is an excuse to put up with abuse, but a man's family training isn't an acceptable reason. None of this makes sense to me. Mind you, in the scenario above, there's a very good chance that I'd have broken the engagement, so it's really a matter of different strokes.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh* 
I bet that people on this topic that say that DP needs to deal with it are not saying it because he has a penis.







They say that because it is HIS family. Just as if I was with _my_ family and they started in on my DP then I would feel like it was totally MY place to let them have it.

Exactly!

As I also mentioned in my earlier post, my FIL absolutely refused to knock it off with his disrespectful comments and behavior directed at me until my husband finally told him off himself. I defended myself until I was blue in the face, but it didn't matter to FIL because I'm not actually family in his mind. He needed to finally hear it from his own son before he was willing to accept and understand that the line crossing would stop for good or we would have nothing to do with him.

If the situation had ever been reversed I would have absolutely felt like it was my responsibililty to draw the line with my family. I guess what I'm trying to say that one can only have a united front if both spouses draw the line together. Anything less can and will be seen as tacit approval of the abusive behavior being dished out by the in-law.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
This statement makes me kind of dizzy with disbelief. Sure, people should feel empowered to stick up for themselves when they are being verbally attacked and abused, but when that abuse is coming from an in-law I think it is morally reprehensible for the other spouse to stand their mutely and do nothing while their parent is going after their wife/husband like that. Family dynamics get so complicated where in-laws are concerned, and I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that the actual child of that in-law may need to step up and lay down the law with their parent in order for the words to be heard and respected. I'm very surprised that some here have a hard time seeing that the FIL doesn't consider the OP to be family in the first place, and that he doesn't care one way or the other what she may have to say.

It sounds like the OP's FIL has been verbally abusing his wife and kids his entire life and that they have put up with that abuse without little, if any, resistance. The OP's husband is now asking her to let that cycle of abuse continue unabated, and by extension he is also asking his wife to let herself be abused by this man. That's just not acceptable. I honestly don't think anything will change with this dynamic unless and until the husband stands up for both himself and the family he has now with his wife.

(Btw, my personal frame of reference involves a very contentious history with my own FIL. It didn't matter what I said to stand up for myself with him, he simply didn't care. The nonsense only came to an end once my husband told him in no uncertain terms to stop if he wanted to continue having a relationship with husband or our kids.)

The other doesn't have to stand their mutely, but it is not someone elses responsability to make sure I'm treated properly. DH can express his own feelings if I'm being treated unfairly, but I am the one who has the final say in how _I_ deal with those who treat me poorly, not him.

I know about toxic in-laws because I have them. I never forced DH to cut contact himself, he never decided I should cut contact from them. I made my own choice to speak with them as little as possible, just as DH has made the choice that he will only have limited contact with them. The only person either of us made the choice for was DD because she was 4 at the time and truely not capable of saying "I have no desire to spend time with you" at the time and enforcing it.

I deal with my interpersonal conflicts and DH deals with his, no matter who those conflicts are with.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Maybe we need to stop expecting the man to defend the woman and start expecting the woman to defend herself. Women don't need protecting, they are fully capable of doing it for themselves. They also don't need someone to look out for their best interest, like storm bride said, a woman is not a child.

The bolded is right, _we_ teach people how to treat us. Other people don't teach people how to treat us.

Well, if the man does not stand up for his wife, then his family will think that he is in agreement with their mistreatment of her. That is a fact, at least in my case. For years, I put up with stupid crap from my ILS. Then I got tired and started mouthing off right back, and finally, my husband decided to be a man and side with me. Then, the crap stopped. They can still be annoying, but they know where to stop, for the most part.

If my husband were being belittled and treated like crap, you bet your sweet bippy that I would defend him. Not that he could not defend himself, but I would want the offender to see a united front.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
Exactly!

As I also mentioned in my earlier post, my FIL absolutely refused to knock it off with his disrespectful comments and behavior directed at me until my husband finally told him off himself. I defended myself until I was blue in the face, but it didn't matter to FIL because I'm not actually family in his mind.

In that situation, I'd cut contact with my in-laws, and dh could do whatever he wanted from there. He can't make me spend time with them, so I don't have to subject myself to that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Well, if the man does not stand up for his wife, then his family will think that he is in agreement with their mistreatment of her. That is a fact, at least in my case. For years, I put up with stupid crap from my ILS. Then I got tired and started mouthing off right back, and finally, my husband decided *to be a man* and side with me. Then, the crap stopped. They can still be annoying, but they know where to stop, for the most part.

If my husband were being belittled and treated like crap, you bet your sweet bippy that I would defend him. Not that he could not defend himself, but I would want the offender to see a united front.

"Be a man?" I thought this was about "his family, his responsibility", not about gender?

I wouldn't "mouth off right back", nor would I expect dh to "side with me". I'd cut contact for myself.

And, honestly, if your dh stood up for you and it had that effect, that's great. It doesn't always. It frequently reinforces the in-laws belief that the woman (or man, in some cases) is all wrong for their child, and has "even turned my son/daughter against me". It's not like having their child suddenly tell them they're wrong is going to work on every toxic person out there (or any of them, in my experience).


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
In that situation, I'd cut contact with my in-laws, and dh could do whatever he wanted from there. He can't make me spend time with them, so I don't have to subject myself to that.

That's all well and good, but you do realize that having kids only makes dealings with the ILs all the more complicated? I know this is getting way OT here, but my husband works with his dad and that side of the family gets together on a very regular basis. Cutting him out of my life would have been all the more of a logistical nightmare once the kids were born, because there is no way in hell I would let them be present for FIL's mean-spirited commentary directed towards me.

As is the truth with most bullies, FIL feels empowered to continue being abusive if his wife and/or kids don't stand up to him and tell him to shut it. Otherwise, he quickly convinces himself that everyone agrees with him wholeheartedly and is only further emboldened to continue his nonsense. I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb here in thinking that the OP's FIL is also a big old UAV who needs similar treatment in order to put this all to a stop for good.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, he has an obligation to defend her, because it's her family, but your dh should also defend you against _your_ family?

My DH should defend me against anyone who tries to harm me, and vice versa - especially if for whatever reason, we are unable to defend ourselves at that moment. Trust me, I get VERY defensive and into people's sh!t if I think they are harming my dh, and I get doubly so when I know that the person is hitting his buttons and he is incapable of defending himself properly due to baggage or other circumstances.

It isn't about gender, it is about standing up for your family.

Quote:

To each their own. If dh ever says one word to anybody in my family about how they interact with _me_, all hell will break loose. And, the sentence I bolded would make me run like a rabbit. It's not up to dh to look after my best interests. I'm not a child.
I find this a very interesting statement. Frankly, we all got baggage, and family baggage is some of the most powerful stuff around. I don't know many people who don't revert to childhood when around their families - stuff that happened when they are 8 or 10 or whatever tends to be replayed again.

My husband saw my father treating me in a way that he saw was disrespectful to me and he saw me acting like a child, and taking it. After all, this was an interaction that started long before he came on the scene, heck, long before I was an adult.

Because he intervened (respectfully), for the first time in my life I saw that I did not have to be treated by my father the way he had been treating me. It was more powerful a lesson than being told to stand up for myself or being made to feel guilty for taking the crap from my dad.

This is not about gender roles, though gender will always have an impact. This is about emotional support. We don't always have to be strong and emotionally secure all of the time. We all got baggage, and the entire point of a relationship is to be strong for the other person when the other person is unable to be strong.

Quote:

Anyway - I guess the OP should just her dh take care of it, whichever family it is. Because, despite what you said at the beginning of this post, the rest of your post suggests that you think he should just defend her, no matter what, because the poor little woman isn't socialized to be a grown-up.
And what if that is true? what if she isn't socialized as a grown-up? So she should just continue to be abused because she was denied the skills to defend herself? And that will help her learn those skills?

Personally, I do think that knowing that your husband has your back, and will intervene if needed can make one more prone to stand up for oneself.

Quote:

I wouldn't leave a family event that my children were enjoying, either. It has nothing to do with not having the "right" to do so. That would be my choice. Despite being a poor, pathetic, poorly trained woman, I'm capable of setting my own priorities.

I'm bowing out. This thread makes me sick. God forbid dh doesn't treat me like a pathetic little girl who can't look after her own best interests...because if he doesn't, he'll be subject to criticism for not being a "real man". Ugh. I really thought we'd outgrown this.
I find your insistence that it be solely about gender to be even more interesting than your objections. I too would be loathe to leave a family event that my kids were enjoying - the decision to leave or not would depend on the history and how eggregious the behavior was.

It sounded from the OP that this was NOT the first time the FIL pulled this crap at a family holiday event - and at some point, the desire to avoid a scene or hurt the kids plays into his hands - classic gaslighting maneuver - get you to a place where you cannot leave easily and then harass and attack you, to force you to leave, and then it is YOUR FAULT for ruining the event for the kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
My DH should defend me against anyone who tries to harm me, and vice versa - especially if for whatever reason, we are unable to defend ourselves at that moment. Trust me, I get VERY defensive and into people's sh!t if I think they are harming my dh, and I get doubly so when I know that the person is hitting his buttons and he is incapable of defending himself properly due to baggage or other circumstances.

It isn't about gender, it is about standing up for your family.

I'd stick up for dh, if he made it clear that he wanted me to. Other than that, I butt out, and expect the same from him.

Quote:

I find this a very interesting statement. Frankly, we all got baggage, and family baggage is some of the most powerful stuff around. I don't know many people who don't revert to childhood when around their families - stuff that happened when they are 8 or 10 or whatever tends to be replayed again.

My husband saw my father treating me in a way that he saw was disrespectful to me and he saw me acting like a child, and taking it. After all, this was an interaction that started long before he came on the scene, heck, long before I was an adult.

Because he intervened (respectfully), for the first time in my life I saw that I did not have to be treated by my father the way he had been treating me. It was more powerful a lesson than being told to stand up for myself or being made to feel guilty for taking the crap from my dad.

This is not about gender roles, though gender will always have an impact. This is about emotional support. We don't always have to be strong and emotionally secure all of the time. We all got baggage, and the entire point of a relationship is to be strong for the other person when the other person is unable to be strong.
I'm more than a little confused as to what's "interesting" about it. DH has no business getting involved in my battles, if I don't want him there. I also can't imagine him telling me to stand up for myself, or "making" me feel guilty for not doing so - in any situation. I don't have patterns like that with my parents (my involvement with my dad is pretty minimal, although friendly, and my mom is, hands down, my best friend in the world after dh), and if we did happen to have a blow-out - can happen between anybody - dh had better stay out of it. Mind you, I can't really imagine how anybody in my family would react to someone's SO jumping into an existing dynamic like that, either. It would be interesting, if annoying.

Quote:

And what if that is true? what if she isn't socialized as a grown-up? So she should just continue to be abused because she was denied the skills to defend herself? And that will help her learn those skills?

Personally, I do think that knowing that your husband has your back, and will intervene if needed can make one more prone to stand up for oneself.
She was standing up for herself. She just continues to go back there and see her FIL. I fail to see how her dh stepping in and acting like her daddy (packing them up to go and...whatever people think he should have done) is going to help her learn the skills to defend herself.

Quote:

I find your insistence that it be solely about gender to be even more interesting than your objections.
It's not solely about gender, but it's ridiculous to assert that gender plays no part in this, when people are talking about her dh needing to "be a man" (a phrase that honestly makes me sick), and bringing up how "women are trained to compromise". I'm not the one who brought up the gender red herring, although more than one person in this thread has suggested that I am. The gender politics of having my dh treat me as a child who needs protection from the "man" don't sit well with me.

Quote:

I too would be loathe to leave a family event that my kids were enjoying - the decision to leave or not would depend on the history and how eggregious the behavior was.

It sounded from the OP that this was NOT the first time the FIL pulled this crap at a family holiday event - and at some point, the desire to avoid a scene or hurt the kids plays into his hands - classic gaslighting maneuver - get you to a place where you cannot leave easily and then harass and attack you, to force you to leave, and then it is YOUR FAULT for ruining the event for the kids.
We see things differently. The option to leave a particular event would probably never be the one I chose. I simply wouldn't go back again. I have no interest in playing games with people like that, and to choose to subject myself to it, then get mad because dh isn't somehow stopping it? Makes no sense to me. If I'm not being treated with respect, then I don't go...dh can make of that what he will. But, if I'm sending him the message that I'm willing to go somewhere (even if I'm far from eager), it's pretty ridiculous to criticize _him_ for not taking me away from all this.

DH doesn't override my decisions about myself - ever. If the OP would like to leave, and her dh won't cooperate, then she has to figure out her options. If she's not prepared to leave, then why should he? In any case, I just hope that if I'm ever in such a situation, dh isn't criticized for not being enough of a man to protect me from myself...because I neither need nor want to be protected from...me.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
"Be a man?" I thought this was about "his family, his responsibility", not about gender?

I wouldn't "mouth off right back", nor would I expect dh to "side with me". I'd cut contact for myself.

And, honestly, if your dh stood up for you and it had that effect, that's great. It doesn't always. It frequently reinforces the in-laws belief that the woman (or man, in some cases) is all wrong for their child, and has "even turned my son/daughter against me". It's not like having their child suddenly tell them they're wrong is going to work on every toxic person out there (or any of them, in my experience).


Okay, "Be an adult" then. I would not stand by and allow my family of origin to be nasty to my husband. I don't have it in me to do such a thing to someone I love.

And I never said my plan works in every.single.solitary.case. Obviously, it is subjective.

However, I still think that the united front is best. But, if a guy (or gal) refuses to do the right thing, IMHO, by his/her spouse, then I say that the one who is being picked at should tell them off and let the chips fall where they may. To me, a person who would not stand up for their spouse, does not love the spouse as they should.

But, you have your opinion and I have mine.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Threadjacked, much?


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
I would have packed the kids up and left. Dh could do what he wanted (though to be fair, if he stayed, he would have got an earful at home later).

Same here!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
We teach people how to treat us - and our extended community either supports or undermines these lessons.

Yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Well, if the man does not stand up for his wife, then his family will think that he is in agreement with their mistreatment of her.

If my husband were being belittled and treated like crap, you bet your sweet bippy that I would defend him. *Not that he could not defend himself, but I would want the offender to see a united front*.

Thank you. This is exactly where we are going astray on this thread. He isn't "taking care of a weak wife"; he is appropriately siding _with her_ in his disgust and refusal to sit idly by while someone (his dad or anyone else) verbally and emotionally abused her, and their kids as well as I find it hard to believe that FIL's level of UAV goes unnoticed by their kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'd stick up for dh, if he made it clear that he wanted me to. DH has no business getting involved in my battles, if I don't want him there.

I'd be furious if someone was so mistreating me, and I was defending myself but my dp was sitting around like it was all ok. Sounds like the OP's dp did say something, not clear what or to what extent. I wouldn't expect to have to ASK dp to be furious and stand WITH me. I didn't get the feeling from the OP's posts that she didn't want her dp involved, although it is clear that you wouldn't want yours to be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
She was standing up for herself. She just continues to go back there and see her FIL. I fail to see how her dh stepping in and acting like her daddy (packing them up to go and...whatever people think he should have done) is going to help her learn the skills to defend herself.

DH doesn't override my decisions about myself - ever.

She is NOT standing up for herself when she continues to go back there and see FIL. And even worse, she is teaching her FIL that he not only gets to CONTINUE to verbally abuse his now adult kids but his DIL and grandkids too. The whole thing is sick. The OP should certainly stand up and refuse to participate in it, and it sounds like she did put up a fight but ultimately decided to stay there and eat dinner. Not the choice I would have made!

The OP should be outraged enough to walk out and never go back.

The OP's dp should feel the exact same way.

And the kids should see that "I've got your back" from their parents. They will not stand by and watch someone mistreat me or their spouse.

I do agree with you on one point - dp doesn't override my decisions about myself. But I don't think the OP really wanted to stay there; she stayed so her kids wouldn't miss an Easter dinner. Which I doubt kids care much about anyway so it was a bit misplaced IMO and DOESN'T OVERRIDE THE DAMAGE TO THEIR KIDS OF CONTINUING TO WATCH THEIR GRAMPA MISTREAT THEIR MOTHER HOLIDAY AFTER HOLIDAY. I wouldn't want my dp to toss me over his shoulder and carry me out, but I'd fully expect a "this is bullshit; let's go!" If I really wanted to stay, I could explain that - but his response should have been one of siding with me against abuse from the get go. I shouldn't have to ASK him to do the common sense, decent thing.

And it would all work EXACTLY the same way if the roles were reversed. It is not a man/woman and their roles thing at all.

My mom was raised to be a doormat (children are to be seen and not heard, respect your elders, husband is the head of the home, etc). Only once did I see her mistreated, and because she wouldn't defend herself, I did. My dad had died of a heart attack at age 39. She was alone, raising three kids. We lived 15 minutes from my dad's parents, and two states away from my mom's. A year later, she was dating. All us kids were fine with it (well, I did slam the door in that one guy's face - but got it out of my system) but my dad's dad was outraged. I walked in one day to find her sobbing on the phone "I'm sorry, N.... I'm sorry". I asked who she was talking to, and she tried to shoo me away but I could hear my grampa screaming through the phone that she was a slut and a whore. I told her to hang up. She told me go upstairs. I was horrifed that she wouldn't hang up, and that she kept apologizing. So I reached over and hung up for her. He immediately called back, but I answered the phone. He says "put your mother on the phone!" and I told him absolutely not. He again demanded to talk to her, and I again refused. My mom was upset that I was disrespecting my grampa that way. He said if I didn't put her on the phone that he'd just drive to our house. I told him if he so much as pulled into the driveway, I'd call the police. He didn't call or come over after that. I was 13.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Thank you everyone for being outraged on my behalf. I really appreciate the feedback.
I just finshed talking to Dh and I said I will not spend another holiday in thier home nor will my children.
I told him I stayed out of guilt b/c MIL did work hard on Easter; Putting together and egg huint and baskets and a beautiful dinner for everyone.
I said I will not be trapped by guilt anymore.
From now on all holidays are here..they can come or not as they see fit.

The kids may have picked up on some stress going on (although I really don't think so b/c my Dd stresses and shows it very easily so if she were feeling any angst I would know it and see it in her behavior immediately)
The entire conversation took place outside while the kids were in..DD saw me crying and asked why and I told her that I was telling grammy about the sad story we heard in church that morning.

This Thursday visit is canceled, as well.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeminijad* 
Threadjacked, much?


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Right, look at solutions for the future...good point. Have you read "Toxic Inlaws?" Maybe you should bring it to read next time your forced to hang out with them.LOL

I have read the book..LOVE it and always recommend it. I love the idea of me just sitting casually reading it in front of them. Thanks for the laugh!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Have you read "The Dance of Anger"?

It might give you some good ideas for dealing with him. It's by Harriet Lerner, she also wrote "The Dance of Intimacy, might also have some good ideas.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
Thank you everyone for being outraged on my behalf. I really appreciate the feedback.
I just finshed talking to Dh and I said I will not spend another holiday in thier home nor will my children.
I told him I stayed out of guilt b/c MIL did work hard on Easter; Putting together and egg huint and baskets and a beautiful dinner for everyone.
I said I will not be trapped by guilt anymore.
From now on all holidays are here..they can come or not as they see fit.

The kids may have picked up on some stress going on (although I really don't think so b/c my Dd stresses and shows it very easily so if she were feeling any angst I would know it and see it in her behavior immediately)
The entire conversation took place outside while the kids were in..DD saw me crying and asked why and I told her that I was telling grammy about the sad story we heard in church that morning.

This Thursday visit is canceled, as well.









: I love the update. I am so glad that you DP is backing you up. (not because he has a penis but because he is your partner and your love







)

If they do choose to come over to your house just make sure that they are never alone with your children. Because I know those types of people will take every chance they get to slam you.
For example "your mom is too selfish to let you come over any more"

Good job and good luck for the future.

(psst My children do not miss their toxic grandmother at all. They sometimes wonder "why doesn't Abuela like you?" But they have never really missed her.)

eta: I have to warn you that things most likely will get worse but eventually they will get better. So hang on tight, buckle you seat belts it is gonna be a bumpy ride. (but at the end of the ride you get a lolly-pop,lol)


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

First, I'm so, so sorry that this was the sort of holiday you ended up having. Your "F"IL is a UAV, and neither you nor the kids deserve to be around that.

You know if I were you, neither of those people would be seeing my kids, let alone calling them "grandma" and "grandpa." You have no obligation to keep them in your lives. If your husband wants to see them, he can do it alone, without subjecting you and the kids to whatever they might throw your way.

I'm glad he is backing you up at least, and won't be bringing them this Thursday. I hope you can get him to cease Thursday visits altogether.

What a rotten situation . . . I'm glad you have something to look forward to at the end of this week!!


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Jessy, you might want to edit your post before it gets pulled. Namecalling is against the uA, even when it's true


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