# Why are kids so mean sometimes?



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place for this. It's more of a philosophical question. I'm really curious what other people's take on this is because I just can't figure it out.

There is an elementary school bus stop right in front of my house. Several times I have witnessed the children out there being downright cruel to each other. One time I felt compelled to tell the bus driver that I could see one child beating up an another child near the back of the bus through the window. There was another adult at the back of the bus but, apparently, she wasn't aware of the problem, either.

Today I heard the kids hollering so I peaked out my window and saw a loose dog running around. I went out to watch the dog while I called animal control. While I was standing on my porch there was an interchange between 3 boys that I could not hear. One of the boys walked away to get away from the other two. He looked a bit scared. One of the other two boys said something to the first boy about being a girl. He was obviously saying that to the boy just to be mean. When the bus pulled up and the kids started to walk toward it to get on, I noticed that the boy who had been picked up had the physical characteristics of Down's Syndrome. Now I wonder if they were picking on him solely because he's different.

I just don't get it. Why do kids do that? Is it something we are all born with and have to be taught not to act on or is it learned by what we witness and experience?


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## SnowSparrow (Sep 1, 2010)

Power. Plain and simple.

Being mean is how adults have power over them. Making children feel or be powerless, using negativity as a motivator or as compulsion, is extremely common parenting. Just because there's happy moments doesn't mean that that meanness doesn't stick.

It's only natural that children who are shown meanness and manipulation through being made to feel bad at home (and usually at school, if they go), by those more powerful than themselves, would turn around and use those tactics on others who they want to control, manipulate, or feel power over.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

That's exactly what I was thinking. They must see this behavior at home and are probably treated that way by their parents and older siblings. I also think school is a great place for learning mean behavior. I guess there's a part of me that doesn't want to blame parents and school for all of it, though.

I have to deal with this on a daily basis with my 6yo and his best friend. His friend comes home from school and exhibit all the typical mean school kid behavior. My ds picks it up and comes home and treats his 3yo brother that way. If he's not around his friend for an extended period of time, he doesn't do things just to be mean. It makes me not want to let him play with any of the neighbor kids.

Today he wouldn't go outside to play with the group of kids at his friend's house next door because there was a girl there who had pinched him. Apparently, she insisted that he hit her so she pinched him back even though he told her over and over that he didn't hit her. I believe him because he's not the type to just hit people and because of his reaction. He was so upset that this girl would hurt him for something he didn't even do and not believe him about it. The kids expect each other to lie about that sort of thing, though. I think they learn that at home when their parents punish them harshly. They learn to lie so they won't get in trouble. Even if my son did hit her, why is it that all she wants to do is retaliate? Doesn't anyone teach these kids that revenge is not the answer? What happened to, "turn the other cheek?"

Ugh. I could go on and on. I'm just so disillusioned by the meanness I see.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

You know, my boys regularly attack each other when they get mad. Someone "steals" the other guy's lego creation and...watch out, bro. They have never seen me or their father hit each other. On the contrary, they've seen us argue and then settle things peacefully. They have seen us apologize to each other for being unkind. We don't hit them.

So no, I don't think kids are aggressive only because they have observed this behavior at home. Sometimes, sure. But whacking someone we don't like is a basic human instinct. One most of us as adults have learned not to give in to. Also, I believe some kids are just mean for no particular reason.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Well, I'm not really talking about the aggressiveness that children exhibit when they are overwhelmed with their emotions. I'm talking about deliberate meanness, like when one kid does or says something to another kid just because they know it will be upsetting, bullying. They tease this kid for wearing glasses, that kid because they know he won't fight back. That sort of thing.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> They must see this behavior at home and are probably treated that way by their parents and older siblings. I also think school is a great place for learning mean behavior.


I disagree that it is because kids see this behavior at home. I am sure some kids do, but I am also quite sure that kids who have respectful homes practice this kind of behavior as well. It is a way of testing boundaries and power and control.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

But why do they choose that kind of behavior to test boundaries and control? Aren't there other ways? They must see those behaviors somewhere to think they might work to get them what they want. KWIM? For example, my ds never expressed an opinion about toys and clothes and such in terms of boys and girls until his friend made that distinction. It was only after hearing other boys disparage "girl" stuff that my son started doing that.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


The opposite also is true. I grew up in a terrible, violent family, but I don't hit people. I never bullied. I never intentionally hurt someone else's feelings.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

There are ALWAYS those that do not follow the patterns that are modeled to them, but I would venture to say that 99% of the time, yes, it's modeled at home. I mean that's one of the mantras here at MDC... model the behaviors you want to see in your children. If it were not effective, we, as intelligent mommas, would suggest something else. Of course there will be kids that don't conform to the home environment. Most do. When I see kids tormenting and belittling others my very first thought is that they are tormented and belittled at home. When I see kids being kind to someone else, I think they must have kindness modeled at home.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> But why do they choose that kind of behavior to test boundaries and control? Aren't there other ways? They must see those behaviors somewhere to think they might work to get them what they want. KWIM? For example, my ds never expressed an opinion about toys and clothes and such in terms of boys and girls until his friend made that distinction. It was only after hearing other boys disparage "girl" stuff that my son started doing that.


I think it's a complex mix of testing out their power + how kids are socialized. Kids can come up with fairly cruel things through trial and error. They may not have a full grasp of the implications of the things that they're saying at a young age, but they can easily observe how others react when they say something mean. Our ds got teased some in 1st and 2nd grade by the neighborhood kids. He's a really sensitive kid, and really reactive. I think a couple of the kids who were doing it noticed how he reacted, and then they had fun getting a rise out of them. It was a power trip pure and simple.

I think if kids don't see respectful communication at home, or they have parents who exercise power without respect, they're more likely to try those behaviors out on others. But of the kids who were teasing my son, two came from homes where I noticed a distinct lack of respectful communication, but one didn't. So, it's more than just "they're reflecting what they see at home". All of the parents, by the way, dealt with the issue reasonably when I brought it up to them. The kids were all given to know that this was not acceptable behavior, and we worked with ds on not being so reactive.

Socialization also comes out in terms of how the kids demonstrate bullying. Boys in middle class America are more likely to use a combination of verbal taunts and physical aggression. Girls in middle class America are much more likely to use verbal and relationship aggression. This, I have to believe, is a reflection of what they're seeing as acceptable both at home and in their peer groups. There are subcultures in the US where girls are as likely as boys to be involved in physical aggression. There are subcultures where boys are more likely to do relationship violence. But honestly, I see the same kind of exclusionary relationship cr*p going on with some of the adults in their lives too. In fact, I've never seen more than when I became president of the PTA at our school. Holy cow, it was like being back in middle school!

But I believe there is some sort of basic human desire for power, and if it's not channeled appropriately and if kids aren't given appropriate tools to deal with these desires, it will come out as bullying.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

One of the points Gordon Neufeld makes is that kids, when grouped together by age and thus at similar maturity levels, will establish a pecking order. This is one of his arguments for mixed age groupings - older children and adults providing guidance.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Its not just kids.

I had a grown women, a nurse no less, grab my daughters white cane from her and shout "Why do you have a blind mans stick, your not blind."

She had never seen my child before in her life ir knew if she was blind or not (which she is or she woudlnt have a cane).

And my poor 3.5 year old daughter just smiled up at her and said "Thats my cane." Like she was giving her a compliment.

I cried.

People suck at times. So it doesnt surprise me that kids do at times too. However, there was this boy who picked on my kids horribly for 5 years with another boy. Now, he stands up formy kids and is the first to tell his former friend what a jerk he is for picking on people.

So, kids do change.


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## pink_emerald77 (Mar 26, 2010)

I can't say that I know how kids acted 50 years ago, but I can tell you, I believe kids are getting meaner and meaner by the day. And the things that they talk about, these 11/12 year olds, are things I never thought about til I was in high school. Our generation is growing up too fast, imo. And the innocence and simplicity of childhood is no longer considered sacred.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Saying that 99% of bullies are repeating what they see at home is too simplistic.

That would mean that 99% of the kids I worked with at the womens shelter were bullies. And that is not accurate in the least. SOme were, yes. But most were not. Infact most did what theyt could to be invisable and not draw attention to themselves. They just wanted to get to school and try to be a normal child. It is their safe place and most just try to be as innoculous as possible.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Saying that 99% of bullies are repeating what they see at home is too simplistic.
> 
> That would mean that 99% of the kids I worked with at the womens shelter were bullies. And that is not accurate in the least. SOme were, yes. But most were not. Infact most did what theyt could to be invisable and not draw attention to themselves. They just wanted to get to school and try to be a normal child. It is their safe place and most just try to be as innoculous as possible.


Actually, I didn't say that people of a particular demographic or sample size fit into the 99%. It was a generalization.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I know that adults are mean, too, especially toward their own children. I see it all the time. It makes me so sad. I wonder why people like that have children in the first place. But mean adults aren't born that way, are they? They learn that behavior somewhere as well, don't you think? That's what I'm wondering.

I can see how children from extremely abusive families would rather be invisible than be bullies. I think it's more the kids from normal, average families that are more likely to be mean and aggressive. This is how people act. A lot of times, it's kids from upper middle class families who are bullies.

I really don't buy much into the idea that children are worse now than they ever were. I think maybe society is becoming more aware of these behaviors as harmful. That's part of why this behavior confounds me so much. There seems to be more and more info out there among "experts" about how harmful meanness is but the average parents don't seem to be getting it.

IDK. As I write all of this it seems too simplistic. I don't think it comes just from parental modeling. I think it comes from all directions. I don't think kids are born mean, though. I think if kids saw that they could gain power and control through being nice, that's what they would be more inclined to do. The problem is they see too many adults and older kids using aggression and teasing and meanness.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SnowSparrow*
> 
> Power. Plain and simple.
> 
> ...


I was going to say the same thing!


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

The most important lesson we can teach our children (and others) is how to be a good person. When I happen upon a bullying incident or harsh teasing, I always (gently) intervene. I tend to have the mindset of "not on my watch". I don't denigrate or shame the children. Often I might make a very gentle suggestion, but mostly I just engage the children long enough so that the moment passes. If I notice that another child has tried to stop the bullying/teasing, I will ALWAYS praise this child in front of the others for his/her maturity and empathy. Usually, I know the children involved, but there have been occasions when I had never laid eyes on them before (...two little lads brawling in the park, punching each other in the head/face...). FWIW, I don't think the children are 'bad', nor do I believe they come from dysfunctional homes. They are just kids... feeling their way around this big, crazy world.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, I'm sure that this won't be a popular opinion, but I believe in original sin. I don't believe children are born pure and perfect, and develop bad behaviors only through the evils of society or bad parenting; I believe they have a natural, inherent desire for control and dominance, a natural selfishness, a natural greed and so on. I don't believe it manifests at birth, mind you - I don't think babies are mentally capable of acting maliciously or manipulatively - but I believe it emerges just like other aspects of humanity (the desire to be loved and liked, to communicate, to do things independently and so on). Sure, society can influence whether the good or bad aspects of a child's nature are rewarded (deliberately or not), but it certainly doesn't surprise me when a small child exhibits viciousness or cruelty.

And I think kids tend to bring out the worst in each other. I've noticed toddlers will often spontaneously share with an adult, but not with another toddler. Is it because they know and like the adult (their mother, often) better? Or because they know they'll get lavish praise for sharing, whereas their peer probably won't thank them? Or because they know the adult will promptly return the toy if requested, whereas the other kid might want to keep it? Or simply because the adult has prompted them about sharing in the past, and the other kid hasn't? Who knows.  But I don't think the sharing reflects the "natural" unspoiled nature of the child, and the not-sharing reflects abusive parenting or the Problem with Capitalism. They're both just what kids do.

Plus, I think most people in peer groups act worse when they're alone. Kids act better with an adult around, but I also think a group of adults will tend to act better with a kid around. I notice groups of women are sometimes less catty when there's a man around, and groups of men are sometimes less sexist/ogly when there's a woman in the group. Put an older person in with younger people and they may clean up their language; put a younger person in with older people and they may be more cautious about making nasty comments about Young People Today. And so on and so forth - with any demographic from mums to plumbers to academics. It's harder for a group to judge the petty things they get hung up about when an outsider is present, by her very presence making those things seem trivial or ridiculous by comparison. Even kids tend to feel a bit silly making snarky comments about another kid's sneakers in the presence of an adult.

In other words, I plan to homeschool.  I'm sure my theory isn't all-encompassing, but it does explain why so much bullying is observed with kids very close in age. (For instance, isn't it a general trend for kids to be bullied by other kids in their class, not older or younger kids? Because kids of different ages are less hung up about the intricate social rules of the very specific group - they may not even realise that in Grade 3, growing potatoes instead of tomatoes is really lame, or that in Grade 4 you're not allowed to wear yellow. They have different things to worry about - their own little set of rules.)


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Developmentally kids are exactly what you say they are. They are self absorbed and they dont really display empathy until they are older. That is all completely appropriate.

However, most kids also dont relaize they are seperate entities from thier primary caretaker until about 2. So it is commom for them to share with caregivers b/c they dont exactly see themselves as completely seperate beings at that point.

We homeschool also. ButI have learned that bullies are everywhere, not just at school. They are at the YMCA, the mall, the dance centre. It is easier to deal with bullies when they arent faced with it every single recess. But unfortunelay our homeschooled kids are not safe from bullies either.

Adults can be bullies to kids as much as other kids can be from expereince.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I homeschool, too, and bullying and the way schools as institutions don't deal with it are two reasons.

I have to disagree that young children don't display empathy. My almost 7yo has expressed empathy since he was very young. He has always perked up and been affected by a crying baby or child. He wants to make sure the child is ok. He starts discussions about what he perceives as unfairness or injustice or bullying. I think kids who are never treated with empathy won't understand it. A simple example is the very common way that I see most parents deal with their young child's hurts and upsets. They tell their children it's no big deal and to just brush it off. They tell their children they aren't really hurt.

I do agree that we are all born with an innate desire to have power over ourselves and our own lives. The instinct to control our own destinies is not the same as the behavior that we use in order to achieve that. I lean more toward the idea that the behavior, to a large extent, is learned.

John Lennon was in entertainment news a few days ago. I guess it was his birthday. I'm not really sure because I'm not what you'd call a fan (I don't worship any other person) and I didn't pay that much attention to the news. I did catch a few snippets here and there. One thing that stuck in my head was a quote from him. I'm not going to get it exactly right. It was something like, "If everyone would demand peace instead of a bigger TV, there would be peace." Beyond basic necessities, we learn that having more is better.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

While I think that bullying can be learned, it isn't always. For example, my ds is in a very small daycare center, there are 4children under the age of 2. My ds is the oldest and is 23mo, 2 of them are a week apart in age and are 18mo, and the youngest is 15mo.

One of the 18mo's went through a period of hitting, biting, and kicking the other children - none of the others have ever exhibited this behavior at daycare. He would do it out of the blue sometimes (when the teachers thought he was giving hugs, kisses whatever), other times when he was angry, other times when he was frustrated.

I don't think anyone on here would label him a bully - he's too young right? But where did he get that behavior? Not at home, I'm good friends with his mom, and she has never done CIO, she's very gentle in her discipline (far more gentle than I am), and she does address the behavior (unlike some who use GD who just don't do anything). She's a great mom!

I don't thin the behavior itself is "learned" - but I do think it needs to "unlearned" with the guidance of adults. I think when parents notice, or are told, about their child displaying bullying behaviors they need to act on it. But saying, "Oh, we are a GD household so my son doesn't know how to bully" certainly isn't doing anyone any favors. I'm sure its true that some children will not engage in bullying, but as parents we need to have our eyes wide open and watch for it so that we can address it if it comes up.

I also disagree that young children don't display empathy - just the other day my 23mo gave me a hug and kiss when I was crying (I stubbed my toe and it hurt so bad!), and he and his friends at daycare hug each other when one of them is crying.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> John Lennon was in entertainment news a few days ago. I guess it was his birthday. I'm not really sure because I'm not what you'd call a fan (I don't worship any other person) and I didn't pay that much attention to the news. I did catch a few snippets here and there. One thing that stuck in my head was a quote from him. I'm not going to get it exactly right. It was something like, "If everyone would demand peace instead of a bigger TV, there would be peace." Beyond basic necessities, we learn that having more is better.


John Lennon "Peace" waffle was rather ridiculously simplistic. Does "peace" take precedence over justice? Who gets to define both the peace and the justice? Can anyone over the age of 12 honestly go believe that all we have to do is "give peace a chance" as though that is all it takes?


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## goldenwillow (Jan 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> John Lennon was in entertainment news a few days ago. I guess it was his birthday. I'm not really sure because I'm not what you'd call a fan (I don't worship any other person) and I didn't pay that much attention to the news.


He was in the news because it was the 30th anniversary of his death.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Again, I'm not talking about the natural aggressive defensiveness of toddlers. I'm talking about school-aged children whom you would think would have been taught there are other ways to deal with problems. I'm also not talking about when children become overwhelmed or overstimulated and lose control. I'm talking about deliberate bullying just for the sake of making someone else feel bad. I don't think that is natural or normal or instinctive.

It seems to me that somewhere along the way children who are bullies learn that they can get whatever it is that they want that way. Where that is learned is what I'm wondering about, I guess. Is it learned from parents who bully their kids? Is it learned from watching other children bullying and being bullied? Is it learned from watching other people in IRL and media who behave badly? Most likely, a combination of all of that coupled with parents and other influential older people who don't attempt to show children that there are other ways.

I have to actively seek out parents who are respectful toward their children. If I just randomly associate with people from my neighborhood or my dh's work, I am surrounded by parents who belittle, berate and hit their children. They use intimidation and punishment to address their child's perceived "bad" behavior but do nothing to model or foster "good" behavior. Examples, spanking a young child for hitting another child. Punishing their children for interrupting, not listening or otherwise being rude while the parents don't ever listen to anything the children have to say. That makes no sense but I see it all the time.

And, yes, I think that if most people in the world demanded peace and started acting in accordance with peace, there would be mostly peace. Will there always be people who will use intimidation and violence to get what they want? Yes. But if the majority of people in the world would not do that, there would be a lot less pain and suffering. There is overt violence and there is subtle violence. I think most people fall into the trap of using subtle violence as a defense mechanism because they perceive so much violence and threat around them.

Whether or not I think it's possible for the majority of people in the world to get that and start doing it is another question. Sadly, I think that most people are too concerned with surviving (albeit, maybe a warped sense of survival) to contemplate life beyond that.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Again, I'm not talking about the natural aggressive defensiveness of toddlers. I'm talking about school-aged children whom you would think would have been taught there are other ways to deal with problems. I'm also not talking about when children become overwhelmed or overstimulated and lose control. I'm talking about deliberate bullying just for the sake of making someone else feel bad. I don't think that is natural or normal or instinctive.


I don't think its only toddlers that exhibit natural aggressiveness though. Children go through many developmental stages where aggression in some form is exhibited, toddlerhood is not the only one. I also think that teaching children to use other methods of problem solving is a continuing process. Yes, parents should teach their children to use other methods, but then we have to stay on top of it b/c our children grow and change, are exposed to outside influences - we can't assume that we've done our job of teaching alternate problem solving by the time they are school age.

I agree that bullying can be a learned behavior, but it certainly isn't always. Kids also learn it from each other. There are parents who practice GD that say, "Oh, I know my child would never lie to me, the other kid must be lying." - but thats putting a child on a pedestal which isn't any way to teach them how to act. I've seen posters on MDC say that their children would never do the things they are being accused of, sometimes I'm sure its true, other times I read the posts and think, well that makes no sense at all. No one wants to believe that their children would do such things, but I really don't think it necessarily has anything to do with parenting. I'm sure there are some parents on MDC who have children who have become bullies - that doesn't mean the parents stink, it just means they have more work to do teaching their child.

It's sad that you live somewhere that parents bullying their children is the norm, but I would wager a guess that not all those children are bully's.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pink_emerald77*
> 
> I can't say that I know how kids acted 50 years ago, but I can tell you, I believe kids are getting meaner and meaner by the day. And the things that they talk about, these 11/12 year olds, are things I never thought about til I was in high school. Our generation is growing up too fast, imo. And the innocence and simplicity of childhood is no longer considered sacred.


Early philosophers made this argument. It's a staple of every generation in Western culture.


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## bluebackpacks (Nov 5, 2010)

VisionaryMom is right. Also, childhood as we know it has only been around for a 150 years. Prior to this, children were considered little adults. The idea of protecting 'childhood innocence' is a very new one. I believe that we often tend to romanticize childhood... not that this is wrong. It's just helpful to realize that this is a newer philosophy. Otherwise, we become susceptible to chasing an old world kinder dream.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> *I agree that bullying can be a learned behavior, but it certainly isn't always. Kids also learn it from each other. *
> 
> It's sad that you live somewhere that parents bullying their children is the norm, but I would wager a guess that not all those children are bully's.


The part I bolded: It's still a learned behavior even if they learn it from each other. It doesn't really matter who they learn it from. It has to come from somewhere. You have one kid who has a stable, loving home life and another who is bullied at home... the one who is bullied at home teaches the other how to bully. I just disagree that kids are natural bullies.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> I don't think its only toddlers that exhibit natural aggressiveness though. Children go through many developmental stages where aggression in some form is exhibited, toddlerhood is not the only one.


True. Heck, adults have "natural aggressiveness". Men get a testosterone surge every hour! Aggressiveness is a tried-and-true method of getting things from a weaker party (not necessarily physically weaker, but psychologically weaker - it can include adults). It doesn't seem "unnatural" that kids would notice that and use it to their advantage.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


It can be a learned behavior, and if children are learning it from their peers it still needs to be addressed. I guess what I hear the OP trying to say is that only kids who are brought up in authoritarian households are bully's - but thats not true. And as parents who practice GD we need to be aware of what outside influences are teaching our children - homeschooled, public school, private school, whatever - b/c they can learn it other places. I think that the way we treat our children is most influential, but that may not be true for all children and personalities. I think if I acted like my ds could never ever ever become a bully b/c I'm such an awesome parent I would be doing him, and his peers, a huge disservice.

And, really, if we just allowed our children to hit/kick/pull hair/etc when they're toddlers, and don't teach them not to do it, they would probably grow up to be bully's. Considering most children do those things to some extent as a toddler, most children probably are "natural bullies" and we teach them alternate ways of behaving. Now I'll get to hear from everyone who's children never ever once even tried to do any of those things b/c they were born perfect


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> We homeschool also. ButI have learned that bullies are everywhere, not just at school. They are at the YMCA, the mall, the dance centre. It is easier to deal with bullies when they arent faced with it every single recess. But unfortunelay our homeschooled kids are not safe from bullies either.


I realise that, but my comment was tied into my theory about bullying being worse in demographically-similar groups. At the YMCA, the mall or the dance centre, kids are more likely to come across kids of a variety of ages. It doesn't prevent bullying entirely, but it removes one of the triggers, ie. lots of kids of the same age, in the same social group, in which they've had time to develop a pecking order and hash out a strict this-is-cool-this-is-not regime.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pink_emerald77*
> 
> I can't say that I know how kids acted 50 years ago, but I can tell you, I believe kids are getting meaner and meaner by the day. And the things that they talk about, these 11/12 year olds, are things I never thought about til I was in high school. Our generation is growing up too fast, imo. And the innocence and simplicity of childhood is no longer considered sacred.


Respectfully, but tell that to the Jewish people who survived the pogroms and World War II, and to the kids in sub-Sahara Africa that have survived various injustices in which "kids" were catalysts. Kids have killed; kids have been informers; kids have shunned people on the basis of their race, religion and creed. Kids take their cues from their surroundings and go with it. Kids have been actively involved in "mean" things for thousands of years. Life isn't so simple as talking about or thinking in romantic terms about the "old days" and the innocence thereof. Kids have been involved in violence in every aspect of known history. Why? Because it was okay to treat people shamefully (in our terms of shamefulness). There were mean kids when I was growing up (and I'm on the older end of the spectrum here) and there are mean kids now. Kids aren't meaner now then they were then. There has always been a pecking order and sometimes that order is modeled in the form of violence. What has changed is our tolerance of such behavior. What was acceptable or over-looked then is not now. I think that is a good thing. I think it is good that we recognize the mean in people and shame them accordingly. I think a lot of this begins at home, not in school or social groups. Modern schooling as we know it hasn't always existed, and there have been horrid times in history in which children were active participants. It is the societal acceptance of meaness that is disturbing, not peer pressure, which is just an off-branch of the greater problem, in my opinion.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Actually, I never said that all kids who are bullies must have come from homes where they are bullied. If you read my last post, you will see that I think it probably comes from a variety of sources. My point is that I do think it is a learned behavior and not something that they are born with, not original sin, as it were. I also never argued that older people don't have a natural aggressiveness, either. That is not what I'm talking about here. To me there is a difference between the person who expresses their natural, defensive aggression and a person who does something deliberately mean just for the sake of being mean.


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## bluedaisy (Sep 5, 2008)

Having lived in other cultures, there is a certain "meanness" that I observe in American kids that I feel is different that the typical human aggression/power plays, etc.

I am sure the issue is multi-faceted but I think a huge contributor is media. In sitcoms, characters get laughs by making fun of others. Family members cut each other down and use sarcasm constantly. Celebrities are constantly criticized for wearing the wrong thing, gaining too much weight, having the wrong hairstyle. The worst contestants are American Idol are shown just so that people can make fun of them. Certain characteristics (being overweight, being a "nerd" or "uncool" etc) are overemphasized and jokes are constantly made about such characteristics that make people different.

Children imitate what they see. most kids spend many more hours in front of a screen than they do with their parents. I have been shocked at hearing how mean characters are on some popular tv shows for kids.

When I was living in another culture, I tripped while walking. Several of my friends immidiately rushed to my side with genuine concern to see if I was ok (it was a little stumble and it was obvious I wasn't really hurt). Nobody laughed or even smiled. Here, if a kid trips while they are walking, everyone bursts out laughing and will probably make fun of the kid for weeks. We have been conditioned to think that others mistakes or misfortunes are funny. this is not typical human nature but it goes beyond that and I think the media is a huge factor in creating this culture of meanness.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

well i think various factors are at play.

1. our kids are constantly being asked to fit in a certain box. adn there is something wrong with them if they dont fit in. so i think social conditioning is coming from that. so in their world everyone has to fit in a box.

2. break down of the community feeling - breakdown of the family. extreme stress on the families - whether rich or poor. we are getting socially conditioned to react. not think.

i think children are like the canary in the coalmine. they are truly pointing out how degraded our society is getting. in this 'all about me', 'me me me' culture - its about every man for himself and as others have pointed out that sense of power. we should have power over others.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

I have to say that my view on this is a bit different. I dont think that putting the same age kids together creates a more ripe atmosphere for bullying and putting in various aged kids creates a lessened atmosphere for bullying.

For example, my daughter is in 4 dance classes a week ( 1 pre pro tap, 1 pre pro ballet, 1 req jazz and 1 req ballet). In 3 of them she, at 6, is the youngest by up to 3 years. In her pro ballet class she is the youngest by only a year.

In the req class where there are kids from 7 to 9, my daughter is bullied more often b/c she is younger and therefore weaker. She is isolated b/c of her age and her lack of "standing" in the age grouping, while also being picked on b/c she is seen as the teachers pet..the youngest who is good enough to play with the older girls. I have had to step in more then once.

In her pro class, she is younger by only a year. There has not been once where I have had to step in and intervine. They see her as a peer and not as a threat.

I think when you put kids of varying ages in, you are creating an automatic peeking order. The older kids are at the top of the heirachy, and the youngest is at the bottom. The younger ones with the stronger personality will automatically take up head over the older ones who are quiter and not as dominant.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

bluedaisy ~ I think you make some really good points. I'm reluctant to blame the media because my experience has been that it's only as influential as you let it be. I think the problem with the media comes when parents don't discuss the behaviors of the characters with their kids or even laugh along with everyone else. I don't restrict my children's TV watching much. I don't let them watch very scary, gruesome, violent or sexual adult shows and movies but they can watch pretty much whatever kid's shows they want. We watch them together, though, and we discuss what happens on the shows. We talk about who the person being picked on or made fun of must feel and if we would want to feel that way. That sort of thing. I think because of that my kids understand that a lot of the behavior is mean instead of funny.

Your experience in another culture is very interesting.

beenmum ~ I wonder how much of the teasing from the older kids comes from what they've learned from other exclusive environments. I don't know if most of the teasing and bullying that goes on in school, for example, comes from same aged peers or older kids. What I see from the kids in my neighborhood is that the slightly older and/or bigger kids pick on the younger and/or smaller ones. I have read that is a trickle down effect. Adults treat teens with disrespect. Teens treat tweens with disrespect. Tweens treat younger children with disrespect. I can't remember where I read about this now but it was comparing western society and culture to other cultures where teens are treated with much more respect and caring. Those teens then treat the younger children in the same way.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> While I think that bullying can be learned, it isn't always. For example, my ds is in a very small daycare center, there are 4children under the age of 2. My ds is the oldest and is 23mo, 2 of them are a week apart in age and are 18mo, and the youngest is 15mo.
> 
> ...


Just on the bolded part, your post assumes that a parent who doesn't CIO, is gentle in discipline, and addresses behavior is still not capable of parenting in a way that makes a child act out. I agree that on the surface those factors should give a child a better chance of not exhibiting those behaviors, but you simply never know what else is happening in a home. Everything from subtle negative influences to blatant meanness is possible when no one is around. I'm NOT saying your particular friend is like that or her home is like that... just saying you really can't be sure that because a parent does those 3 things, there aren't other factors/dynamics in play that could make a child act out.

I also agree that whether a child turns into a bully/consciously mean or not is a sum of 3 factors that are all very influential: how they're parented (or not); how their peers act; and the temperment they're born with. I think parenting and termperment are most influential though, because that determines the base behavior on which they'll process and respond to peer behavior.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thats not what I was saying at all - I was pointing out that children go through aggressive stages, and it has nothing to do with our parenting. A child who has never been left to CIO, whose parents practice GD, etc can still be aggressive - most 18mo - 2yo children go through a stage similar to the one my friends child is going through right now. My ds did too. It's NOT b/c of the way they were each parented, and just go check out the GD forum here on MDC - there are posts about hitting/kicking/aggression going up almost daily. If we did not address those things, our children would grow up to bully other children.

I don't think that practicing AP gives our children a better chance at not exhibiting those behaviors, I think it gives us parents a better chance at being able to effectively ADDRESS those behaviors - which I think is an important distinction. I don't AP b/c I think it will make my child "better" than the next child, I do it b/c I want to be in tune with my ds so that when something is wrong I know about it, and then can address it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't really believe in original sin...but I also don't believe that kids fully understand the consequences of their anti-social actions and that this ignorance is ingrained. Even though I agree that young kids can show empathy and so on, I'm not sure that it's part of their brain and moral development to really be able to step into other people's shoes for a long time.

I see aggressive behaviour or power-play behaviour a bit like I see a baby dropping food off a tray. It's experimenting with the forces around us - in the baby's case, gravity. In the kids' case, social capital (withholding, and giving), tribal pecking order, etc. I think some kids may experiment once (or not at all), others are going to experiment over and over.

What shapes them is how those around them respond to that experimentation. Fighting on a school bus where the bus driver can't notice makes it clear that there will be no consequences. So, over time, it escalates and even becomes part of the 'riding the bus' culture. I don't think we can blame any one environment...and actually I've worked with kids who were very kind in one environment, and not in another. Bullying could be reinforced at home, in the media, at school, on sports teams, etc. Or at least not negated.

In my experience not all the kids who are bullies grow up to be bullies. Some do, but a lot meet up with some kind of insight or pressure. There are definitely adult bullies, but some of them weren't bullies as kids.

When I was in school in the 70s, I have to say that bullying was basically acceptable. Not only did teachers participate in it, I bullied on a couple of occasions where we were hauled in and in 2/3 cases that I remember, the attitude of the teacher was more along the lines of "don't do that, even though so-and-so is a total screw up" than "what's wrong with you." However I was mostly on the receiving end of the bullying and a few things that happened to me that didn't result in very significant consequences would probably produce a suspension or expulsion these days. There's tons of bullying in literature going back. So I don't buy that it's getting worse. We may be noticing it more.

I do think some of the new anti-bullying stuff is making some progress, especially programmes that focus on the role of the bystander. It will be the bystanders (the majority, whether child or adult) who end up setting the tone.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> I think when you put kids of varying ages in, you are creating an automatic peeking order. The older kids are at the top of the heirachy, and the youngest is at the bottom. The younger ones with the stronger personality will automatically take up head over the older ones who are quiter and not as dominant.


See, I haven't witnessed this. IME it's more that the older kids ignore the younger kids a bit - more like they consider them beneath their notice (both in terms of friendship and bullying). This is mostly from homeschool events - not sure if that changes the dynamic any. As a generalisation, a lot of homeschooled families are big, so maybe the bigger kids are used to having bevies of smaller kids tagging along, and kind of tune them out?


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebackpacks*
> 
> VisionaryMom is right. Also, childhood as we know it has only been around for a 150 years. Prior to this, children were considered little adults. The idea of protecting 'childhood innocence' is a very new one. I believe that we often tend to romanticize childhood... not that this is wrong. It's just helpful to realize that this is a newer philosophy. Otherwise, we become susceptible to chasing an old world kinder dream.


ITA with this. It seems to me that children are kinder than they were in the past, generally speaking of course. Adults are more aware of instances of unkindness, perhaps. There's no such thing as the good old days...


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thanks, I understand the point you were trying to make now.

And very interesting the posts about "There is no such thing as the good ole days" re: a time when children were kind and allowed to be children (or rather, that concept is still fairly new and does not go back as far as we think it did. It does feel like things have gotten more intense and kids have gotten much meaner, but maybe it is the combo of public exposure to it all... both the increased exposure makes it seem like there's more of it, but also kids learn from it. How many post-bullying teen suicides have their been in the last year? So did just as many kids commit suicide because of bullying in the 10-20 years prior but we hear more about it today... or has it actually gotten worse? Not sure what I think, but it's very interesting to consider...


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Well, suicide used to be a huge scandal. People did not talk about it. It was shameful. At least that's the impression I get from things I've heard and read about how things were 50 years ago or whatever. So I think it may be very possible that, like many other things, we are just more open about and aware of it today. .

Unfortunately, I don't see much kindness from the children we see. I see a lot of teasing and meanness and even fighting. A few weeks ago I had to break up a fight between 2 6 or 7 year old girls. As if it weren't bad enough that these children were fighting, there was a group of boys standing around them chanting, "cat fight." Where in the world did these young children hear and understand that term? Also disturbing was the fact that I was the only adult around who intervened. I had to run two houses down to reach the girls and break them up. The adults in the house of the yard where the fight occurred didn't even open their door. The mother even told me she looked out her window and saw it but didn't think it was a big deal. And we live in what's considered a good neighborhood.

I'm so tired of it all. I don't want my children going outside or playing with the neighbor kids at all anymore.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Interestingly, fighting - among boys, at least - was pretty much accepted by adults several decades ago. Even encouraged - pugilism was considered a necessary manly art, and not fighting was seen (probably not by all adults, but a lot) as a sign of cowardice rather than moral strength. So a teacher at a British public school might have refereed a fight to make sure the boys fought fair, but wouldn't actually try to prevent it.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yes, I know fighting used to be considered a sort of rite of passage for males. It still is a lot. I think you can see that with the popularity of boxing and now MMA fighting. IDK. Maybe I expose myself to much different info than most people but everything I hear now on the news or read in news or scientific reports is about how fighting among children is not a good thing. It's all about cooperation and team players these days. I thought our society had evolved a bit beyond the gladiator days. Guess I'm wrong.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

This is true, ime, as well. I was bullied fairly badly in high school, and several of the guys involved apologized at the 10 year reunion. They were very obviously sincere, and it had obviously been bothering them for quite a while.

I don't know most of them very well, and don't know most of their families at all, but I do know one of the families a little bit, and they're very nice people and I think they were very loving parents. (The dad just died a few weeks ago.) They divorced just after their youngest graduated, so I'm sure there was some tension at home...but there was all kinds of tension at my house, too, and none of us were bullies. I think this whole thing depends on many, many factors, but I do think it's natural, and it's not really about parenting. I agree with those who say it's a form of experimentation with control, social dynamics, etc. I don't assume that a child who is mean to another chlid has mean/shaming/whatever parents, any more than I assume that a five year old who throws things (ds2, for instance) has seen that behaviour modelled at home. Different kids learn and process life differently...and for some of them, meanness is at least a temporary part of the process. (Two of those bullies I mentioned are really, really nice people as adults - their behaviour when they were younger was very temporary.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> In my experience not all the kids who are bullies grow up to be bullies. Some do, but a lot meet up with some kind of insight or pressure.


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## Owen'nZoe (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluedaisy*
> 
> When I was living in another culture, I tripped while walking. Several of my friends immidiately rushed to my side with genuine concern to see if I was ok (it was a little stumble and it was obvious I wasn't really hurt). Nobody laughed or even smiled. Here, if a kid trips while they are walking, everyone bursts out laughing and will probably make fun of the kid for weeks. We have been conditioned to think that others mistakes or misfortunes are funny. this is not typical human nature but it goes beyond that and I think the media is a huge factor in creating this culture of meanness.


It all depends on the country you are using as a reference point. We've spent time in my husband's home country (Jordan), and my children have been shocked by how physically agressive the children we've interacted with are there. We started avoiding events where there would be children in our last week of the most recent visit - we were tired of watching our kids get hurt and having everyone (except us) treat it as 'oh, kids will be kids'. Our boys wanted absolutely nothing to do with other children after the first few experiences. We had a thread recently in the multi-cultural forum, and it was interesting to see how many American ex-pat children have similar experiences in widely divergent cultures. Our kids, at least the ones who have grown up in your average American suburb, do not expect to have to put up with physical violence - and when it happens, they expect someone to get in trouble. That isn't always the expectation in other places.

Intercultural issues aside, I guess I fall into the 'kids are no meaner now than they were in the past, and maybe even less mean' camp. I certainly see meanness among my son's friends, but I also see a lot of kindness, caring and generosity. For little ones who are still working out how to behave properly with others, I think they do pretty well.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I haven't read the rest of the responses yet. Just want to share that I think that the school bus experience is basically a distillation, an amplification of the very worst parts of the school experience. I rode the bus during middle school. It was Hell on wheels.


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## caviti (Feb 20, 2013)

Wow, what an interesting discussion! I have been reading a good book on the topic http://www.abebooks.com/9781402219443/Why-Good-Kids-Act-Cruel-140221944X/plp since my 10yo son has been starting to experience it (like I did, many moons ago), and my 7yo daughter (at both ends). It's a great book for practical strategies to assist both the "victim" (in asserting themselves and understanding their options) and the perpetrators (in parents guiding more prosocial behaviour). At essence motivated by the need to conform and assert social social status by differentiating from the "other" (identifying with might highlight one's own otherness) and attacking with preemptive strategies. Fascinated by the social psychological side, but distressed by its actual manifestations. I guess it's part of human condition, and one can only hope to protect/educate our children with useful strategies. From my observation or P&C behaviour, it feeds directly on from learned behaviours from parents about asserting social status.


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