# At what age do you begin discipline?



## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

DS is 26 mos old. He's a sweet kid, generally well behaved. I've avoided having to discipline him because for the most part, if he is acting up, I can redirect him or distract him. Very seldom to I have to just say "no" to what he is doing. And when I do say no, he, of course, has a tantrum. So I try to avoid having to say "no" to him - it makes things more pleasant for both of us.

DH does not see this the same way. I feel like DS does something "wrong", DH says "no", DS melts down. DH will put DS in time out for some infractions (such as throwing toys). I just feel like he unnescesarrily escalates things. He, on the other hand, says that I am too soft and am afraid of saying no.

Both of us are into gentle discipline as we define it (not sure what common definition is) which to us means that we do not spank or hit, do not yell or use nasty tone, and try not to act out of anger.

Am I too soft? Does DS just need to get used to hearing no?

So for an example, DH goes to get a banana. I leave the room, and DS starts screaming. I come back, ask what happened. DH says "he wanted to hold the banana". I said, so let him hold the banana. DH says well, what if he made a mess? Well, so what? He wants to hold the banana. It's exciting for him to be involved in whatever Daddy is doing. I figure no harm in letting him hold the banana.

There are other examples - this one sounds pretty petty when I reread it - but this is our typical pattern.

Am I wrong?


----------



## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

Well, discipline really means teaching, right? So it begins on day one, when you explain to your baby what you are doing as you change their diaper, and if they cry, you commiserate that yes, that wipe was really cold, but pretty soon they will be snug in a dry diaper, and so on and so forth.

I don't avoid telling my kids, "No" because I'm afraid of their reaction. I try to consider their opinion, and let them do it there way if I can. If not, I explain why. They don't always understand (especially when they were younger.) A tantrum is more an expression of frustration and disappointment then a "punishment" for the parent. I try to be sympathetic, but I don't let it discourage me from keeping my kids safe, or doing what I need to do during the day.

Does this make sense? In the case that you were writing about, I would have let him hold the banana. But if he started to smash it, I would intervene. If he went back to the smashing, I would take it away, saying, "Please don't smash my snack." If he screamed, I'd let him scream. It doesn't seem like a hill to die on, one way or the other, if you know what I mean.

If your DH generally has a good relationship with your son, I would encourage him to take him out on his own more. I always feel that the second year is a good time for dads to develop a deeper relationship with their kids, and now that nursing isn't such a huge part of your son's life, your DH should be able to take him for a couple of hours without either of them needing you. Your DH will develop his own style of discipline and care for your son, and frankly, it's easier for most men to do that without their wives leaping in to "help." Even though my kids are 8 and 5, I still find myself offering "helpful" suggestions, when really, my kids adore DH and he does really well with them. Everyone benefits from some "daddy only" time.


----------



## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi,

I agree with you that we should avoid saying No unless there is a good reason , we should also give an explanation, show some empathy and try find something else for the kid to do - No because ...., but you can ......

discipline means to teach and the best way to teach is to encourage thinking , not ' thinking ' what's in it for me , what will I get if i do ..., or what will be done to me , but rather how my actions impact on others and the environment

The litmus test is for imho good intervention is whether the relationship is improved or intact and learning is taking place.

We can teach kids how to handle frustration by solving problems , finding something different to do or just wearing different lenses - no big deal , it is not the end of the world and we need to model this type of flexibility and problem solving

Mary


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I don't avoid 'no' because I think it's important to be clear on the rules. If all I did was distract/redirect then I think it's only a job half done.

I don't see your banana example as a disciplinary issue though.

Anyway, by 26 mos my kids definitely knew what 'no' meant and there were deliberate consequences for their actions. I don't do time outs much but I will send my older (4) y/o to his room to get a grip sometimes. My DD is 2.5 and she knows that if she throws a toy it's purposefully removed from her. If she hits her brother she's not allowed to play with him (and some stern words from me and an apology from her). Bad behavior in public means we go home, etc etc.

I actually have much higher standards for her behavior than I did of my son at this age. Partly b/c I found out the hard way that kids are capable of much more than I thought. Once I raised my expectations and really got firm with consequences with my son, he was like a new (better!) child.


----------



## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

It sounds like your dh may be one of those people that believes "he should do it because I said so." (If I'm reading the banana incident correctly.) Honestly, I don't think this philospohy works. I think it's best to let the kids explore their world in any safe and reasonable way. Kids are always messy with food. For me, I say ok, you can eat the yogurt yourself, but you have to sit at the table with a bib on.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saving the no's for the really important things. (No, you can't hit, throw toys, cross the street without holding my hand, etc...) It does make for a more peaceful household. My son sounds alot like your son. He's very easy going and it's been easy to parent him. I'm pretty permissive and he's doing great. He's almost 4 and listens great and is very obedient.

IMO - It's ok to not say no just for the sake of saying no. Try to work with dh on ways he can say yes. Maybe if you take that view of things everyone will be happier. (ie, no you can't hit me, but you can hit this pillow. No, you can't throw your toys, but you can throw the basketball into the basket. Yes, you have to hold hands while crossing the street, but you can hold mommy's hand or daddy's hand. We've even done we'll each hold bear-bear's hand.)


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Your DH doesn't understand appropriate 2 year old behavior and has unrealistic expectations. A really good book is The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. Here's a link http://www.amazon.com/Science-Parenting-Margot-Sunderland/dp/075663993X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300998521&sr=1-1 . The focus of the book is how are parenting effects our child's neurological development. It goes into normal child development and the causes of misbehavior. The link does have a 'look inside'. We found it at our library and after reading it a couple of times I bought a used one off amazon.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Just going with the Banana Incident - that's one you should've let your husband handle. He and your son were on their own. It sounds like your husband was trying to eat and your son wanted to squish a banana. Your husband has the right to say no, you can't have my food and/or no, I don't want to clean up a mess right now. If YOU want to come in and give him a banana and clean it up, that's for you. Maybe your husband isn't down with wasting food as entertainment? I just can't see where he did anything wrong. Sometimes the answer is just no. Sometimes kids don't like to hear no. They don't have to like it, they are welcome to express themselves by crying (or whatever is age-appropriate) but it's also ok to say no when the answer is no.

I don't know about time out for a 26 month old. Short of sitting on her, my child never would've stayed anywhere at all for more than ten seconds, whether I called it a Time Out or Santa's Fun Time Happy Spot. She would have been WAY too focused on "I don't want to sit here" to have a clue that she was experiencing a consequence or learning a lesson. For something like wanting something she couldn't have, I would've just found something else, removed the object, or removed her. There may have been tears. Sometimes that's just the way it is.


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

The throwing toys is situational. I did give times to throw -- redirect but we also had strict "NO". NO throwing in living room. No throwing toys that were not designed to be thrown. But we also did redirect, sometimes we needed something firmer.

As for holding the banana -- that is what high chairs are for. There are many reasons to have the rule to sit down to eat. If they were in the living room I could see saying, "No I hold the banana we are in the living room." I would be more than willing to move to an eating place or move a high chair into the living room. But I do see sometimes were the mess isn't worth it.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I agree that we should avoid saying no just for the sake of saying no, that kids need to be provided with a safe environment to explore their world physically and messily even. However, I agree with your husband that at times we need to set limits, and there is nothing wrong with saying no and facing the tantrum. Tantrums are just baby's way of saying "I don't like that!" And it's okay for them to have those feelings and express them in a way that is safe and doesn't hurt themselves or others. Avoiding those conflicts is dangerous, as it doesn't allow them the opportunity to explore those feelings and develop the coping skills necessary for those emotions.

I think it important to have a balance, and your DH may be overcompensating if he feels you're not allowing your child enough opportunities to deal with "no". Tantrums are a pain, but they are a phase that toddlers NEED to go through. If you spend his toddlerhood avoiding tantrums they will be much more likely to rear their ugly head in older childhood and adolescence than if you let them have the tantrums now.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Discipline (as in teaching) begins on day one here.

It's hard to comment more generally, but in the specific example i am seeing you are mad that your DH "made" your DS cry by refusing to give over his own food to be held...? Your son had no right to expect other people will let him hold their food if they don't want to. Refusing was well within your husband's rights, and more likely to be the response your son would encounter in the real world (not many people want others to "hold" their food before they eat it) and i think it was handled appropriately. I too would have refused.


----------



## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Doesn't sound petty to me. That stuff is really frustrating, especially when you are finding your feet with GD. It's a tough age and when you're not sure you're on the same page as your partner it just adds to the stress.









I agree with almost everything that's been said here - discipline begins from day one, your husband may not realize what's age appropriate, and I also seem to be going down the same road as D_McG with first and second children.

I think the problem is that you and your DH are seeing the solution to the problem as A or B - you think you should let him hold the banana and clean up after him and your DH thinks that shouldn't let him hold the banana and he should be taking no for an answer. The classic permissive-authoritarian dichotomy. I wouldn't be interested in either solution...I have a low degree of patience for cleaning up banana all day and also a low degree of patience for tantrums







Instead I would try to approach it by spelling out the problem with the child and looking for win-win solutions. Your son is really young so at that age I would probably give him choices rather than getting him to come up with alternatives. I might try "you want to hold the banana, but I'm worried about a mess. Do you want to hold the banana sitting in your chair, or eat it here while I hold it?" Or if it's a situation that comes up all the time then it might be time to set down some house rules so that you're not facing a bunch of judgment calls all the time.

Even so (if your DS is anything like my DD) you will not avoid all tantrums, but hopefully you will be able to reduce them. My DD is really strong willed and I am working to channel that energy in a positive way, making real decisions for herself and helping decide things for our family. It hasn't been easy to start thinking this way but it is starting to really pay off!


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

As for Time outs...

I saved them for when when DS was hurting people, like biting or screeching at ear drum breaking volumes directly in someone's ear, or scratching, and only after 2 warnings and we keep it age appropriate meaning: It was after 2 warnings, it was a minute for each year of age, I used an egg timer to time it, and I followed it with a double length "time in" talking about why he reacted that way and what we can do to not let that happen again. We started at about age 18 months, when he really got the hang of his teeth.

Now that he is 5 we still occassionally do time outs, when he is having a hard time being civil in the common family spaces. Mostly it is so that DH and I have time to calm down so we don't lose our cool and shout or swing, but it is always less than 5 minutes, and is always followed by a ten-twenty minute heart to heart and serious cuddle session.

Obviously this doesn't give the same results in the short term for behavior like my parent's method of spaking with the wooden spoon once or twice and then just having it hanging there as a constant threat "Do you want me to get the spoon?" But it has worked well to interrupt destructive, violent and hurtful behavior in the moment, and has built our communication skills (on all ends actually), so that we have more words to express our needs.

I don't give time outs for throwing stuff. They get two warnings and then I just take the stuff away...and not for a little while. For weeks the first time (hoping they mature enough to play with it properly) then months, or a year, or if I see it will never be used appropriately by my kid, I give it away. Some kids can handle china dolls. Some kids need a world of Nerf, know what I mean?


----------



## UmmRiyam (Mar 24, 2011)

I started using the naughty chair with my 2 1/2 year old a few months ago when she would throw fits for not getting her way. I mean, she would go on and on and on for 20 minutes or more sometimes. At first she wouldn't stay on the naughty chair, but she soon knew what it was and knew that she didn't wanna stay there, so she would run to another chair and curl up with her blanket and pillow and cry for a few minutes. Then, once I put her there for refusing to help me pick up the puzzle pieces she had just thrown on the floor, and she stayed there for 2 minutes, and that's when I think she really got it. I haven't actually put her there since, but the chair is still there for her to see, and I remind her about the naughty chair when she starts to throw a fit, and she calms down immediately and I get her interested in doing something else.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *UmmRiyam*
> 
> I started using the naughty chair with my 2 1/2 year old a few months ago when she would throw fits for not getting her way. I mean, she would go on and on and on for 20 minutes or more sometimes. At first she wouldn't stay on the naughty chair, but she soon knew what it was and knew that she didn't wanna stay there, so she would run to another chair and curl up with her blanket and pillow and cry for a few minutes. Then, once I put her there for refusing to help me pick up the puzzle pieces she had just thrown on the floor, and she stayed there for 2 minutes, and that's when I think she really got it. I haven't actually put her there since, but the chair is still there for her to see, and I remind her about the naughty chair when she starts to throw a fit, and she calms down immediately and I get her interested in doing something else.


See, to each their own, but I think there is something about calling it the "naughty chair" that makes it so shaming and humiliating. I couldn't do that, not for something developmentally normative like tossing pieces of toys everywhere and not wanting to do the hard work of putting it away. I would have just told her that either she helps pick up the pieces or I will put the puzzle away for a long LONG time. It doesn't take them long to realize this consequence. I only had to put away my son's track pieces once for four days and he has never questioned my resolve on that issue ever again for anything he really cares about. Now if he leaves stuff on the floor he knows he has one chance and it's either pick it up or say goodbye as it get's taken to the Kids Foundation we volunteer with and he can play with it there when we go to play with the kids. It's pretty simple. If you can't take care of it, it doesn't get to live with you. Something about that naughty chair sitting there as a threat just reminds me of my mother's wooden spoon collection, especially the creepy ones that had smiling faces burned onto them and bow ties around the handle necks.

It also doesn't seem logical. If she has to go sit on the naughty chair for not helping, how can she help you then?


----------



## amyjane (Mar 4, 2011)

Please read the Dr. Sears disciple book it is so helpful. Like many have said on her it is about teaching your child and it all starts day 1 with getting to really know your child. Each one is different and should be dealt with differently. Also knowing what behavior is age appropriate is important, a 2 your old might want to hold a banana. I really doubt if his father let him, he would do it as an adult in the "real world". The book has really helped me with my 2 1/2 year old, I hope you'll check it out.


----------



## Minalas (Feb 24, 2011)

Sounds like we are in a somewhat similar situation. My DH uses 'No' much more frequently than I do, but by now his 'No' is less respected than my. Because I choose my battles, so I can be consistent in upholding the rules. If I say 'No', DD (36 months) and (DS 11 months) know I mean it. If my children cry as a response to my 'No' I take that as a positive response. It means they understood me. I usually give them a hug and explain 'I love you, but you still can't...'. Usually, that works fine for us.

If I were to try to forbid my children mess making, I'd not only use the N-word no stop, but also keep my children from learning how to eat or deal without being too messy. So with me, DD comes to do a lot of things herself. If the mess is made deliberately, I make DD help with the clean up. So far that worked well for us.

I used time out only for about five times with DD so far. Usually, I just repeat myself until she obeys. Since my span of attention is longer than that of a toddler that approach works well for us.


----------



## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

I will and do say "no" when I really have to say no.

Reasoning with him is not really effective. He's not that verbal. I do explain why I am saying no or stopping something but I don't think it's very effective at this point.

I'm with poster above - I don't say no very often, so DS's reaction to mine is different than to DH.

I think my main issue is that DH and I are approaching this differently. He's in total agreement about not hitting, but he is still a bit of an authoritarian in his approach. I'm probably more of a distractor in my approach. We probably have to duke it out or something.

Sigh.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Redirecting or distracting is discipline.

I think others have said most of what I'd say: Discipline begins at birth.

That being said, it does sound like you're a bit afraid of your son's screaming/tantrums. I'm all for distraction, redirection and saying yes when possible. However, at some point in time in the very near future, he's going to quit being quite so easily redirected. Somewhere between 2 1/2 and 3, my kids' memories really improved and I could no longer distract or redirect. Thus, I had to develop some tools for dealing with their meltdowns. It was at that point that I realized that my job had shifted between infancy and toddlerhood, but I was still parenting my toddlers as if they were infants.

In infancy, your main job as a parent is to meet your child's needs. Crying is a sign of an unmet need. Somewhere in toddlerhood, crying also begins to mean an unmet want or frustration over the world. You can't always say yes. (It is, for example, perfectly reasonable to not let your 2 year old hold your banana if you're going to eat it.) So, your job shifts from preventing crying to helping your child deal with his frustration. That doesn't mean that you should increase his frustration, which is why distraction and redirection are still a good idea. But at some point in time, he's going to cry. You won't be able to prevent it, and you both will have to deal. (I remember one epic meltdown with ds when his candy can broke and I could not fix it. All I could do was hold him.)

I'll also say that I think your dh also has some things to learn. Even if you do timeouts, they're not recommended for kids under 3 because they don't understand the connection between the timeout and the 'infraction'. Even after 3, they're of dubious value. I did use them, but mostly when I was either at my wits' end, or when someone was hitting and we needed separation for everyone's safety. He can work on redirection and distraction, and saying 'yes'. I've said 'yes' to a lot of things when my initial reaction was "no!" My kids rollerblade in the house. They've ridden air mattresses down the stairs. Dd and her friend mixed water and flour together in the kitchen the other day and created a lovely mess.

Instead of saying "no", you can both work on telling your son what to do with the toy. "Keep the toy on the floor." is much more effective than "no" or "don't throw the toy". If someone tells you "don't look over your shoulder" how hard is it to not look over your shoulder? Apply that to a 2 year old. If you tell them not to throw, it's really tempting to throw.

Work too, on having the consequence be directly related to the crime. If he throws toys, a better solution, IMO, is to put the toy away and find him things he can throw.

You'll need to decide whether you want to use timeout in your discipline or not. It was a necessary, if seldom used, tool for me. At times, I simply needed the separation from my kids to get my act together. Other parents can make do without it. We always reconnected afterward. Both my kids have learned to separate themselves when they're overwhelmed. Now if they can learn to do it without slamming their doors, they'll have more control than their mom!


----------



## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I don't know your son but I think there is a learning curve for kids as well as for parents with GD. I felt the exact same way about my DD around 2.5 but somewhere around 3 or 3.5 it kicked in, but only after I had really been consistent with GD. I don't know if it was developmental or related to something I was doing but it might be worth sticking with it or trying different approaches and offering choices more often.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> Reasoning with him is not really effective. He's not that verbal. I do explain why I am saying no or stopping something but I don't think it's very effective at this point.


----------



## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> Just going with the Banana Incident - that's one you should've let your husband handle. He and your son were on their own. It sounds like your husband was trying to eat and your son wanted to squish a banana. Your husband has the right to say no, you can't have my food and/or no, I don't want to clean up a mess right now. If YOU want to come in and give him a banana and clean it up, that's for you. Maybe your husband isn't down with wasting food as entertainment? I just can't see where he did anything wrong. Sometimes the answer is just no. Sometimes kids don't like to hear no. They don't have to like it, they are welcome to express themselves by crying (or whatever is age-appropriate) but it's also ok to say no when the answer is no.
> 
> I don't know about time out for a 26 month old. Short of sitting on her, my child never would've stayed anywhere at all for more than ten seconds, whether I called it a Time Out or Santa's Fun Time Happy Spot. She would have been WAY too focused on "I don't want to sit here" to have a clue that she was experiencing a consequence or learning a lesson. For something like wanting something she couldn't have, I would've just found something else, removed the object, or removed her. There may have been tears. Sometimes that's just the way it is.


Good post, I agree.


----------



## UmmRiyam (Mar 24, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> See, to each their own, but I think there is something about calling it the "naughty chair" that makes it so shaming and humiliating. I couldn't do that, not for something developmentally normative like tossing pieces of toys everywhere and not wanting to do the hard work of putting it away. I would have just told her that either she helps pick up the pieces or I will put the puzzle away for a long LONG time. It doesn't take them long to realize this consequence. I only had to put away my son's track pieces once for four days and he has never questioned my resolve on that issue ever again for anything he really cares about. Now if he leaves stuff on the floor he knows he has one chance and it's either pick it up or say goodbye as it get's taken to the Kids Foundation we volunteer with and he can play with it there when we go to play with the kids. It's pretty simple. If you can't take care of it, it doesn't get to live with you. Something about that naughty chair sitting there as a threat just reminds me of my mother's wooden spoon collection, especially the creepy ones that had smiling faces burned onto them and bow ties around the handle necks.
> 
> It also doesn't seem logical. If she has to go sit on the naughty chair for not helping, how can she help you then?


I never thought of it as shaming and humiliating. I learned this method of discipline from Supernanny. It is working, and I think it's better than yelling or hitting, which I wouldn't do, but that's how I was raised and I don't think it really taught us anything to be yelled at or spanked.

she didn't just refuse to help pick up the puzzle pieces, she started stepping on them too. She knew she was being bad, and she made the choice. I could tell she was pushing me.

Before finding this forum, I'd never heard of Gentle Discipline. I really don't know what it is or how to do that. Can anyone direct me to some good articles or literature on the subject?


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Discipline is something intrinsic, we can't give it to someone. Discipline has become synonymous with punishment or consequences, but it is something that develops within a child in the right conditions. They learn the discipline to carry them through the many issues of life. We don't have any unnatural consequences or try to impart some kind of discipline on the kids.

When I say no to my son, he might melt down, but I just hug him and empathise. Tantrums, tears, anger, frustration... all of it gets a hug around here. If he doesn't want a hug, I just offer affection and empathy while he pours his anger out and is ready to be held when the tears inevitably follow.

Sometimes they have a build up of emotions that need releasing and will have what we call the BCS (broken cookie syndrome). It's where they melt down over something like a broken cookie but really it is just they can no longer hold on to their feelings - past hurts or current ones - and it pours out over something unrelated and relatively small.

It helps me to remind myself children are people too. My 9 year old daughter and my husband get my full undivided attention when they are angry or upset, and my 3 yo son is just as deserving of my love. More so, because he has less ability to process his feelings. Tantrums are wonderful opportunities to help them heal past trauma if dealt with compassionately and patiently, it also models how to react to other people's emotional pain. I remember when my son would arch back in my arms during a tantrum, like a baby coming out of the birth canal... I have no way to prove this but I felt in my heart he was processing his birth trauma. He was almost crushed in my uterus. It took him a long time and many crying fits to process it. All of it in-arms.

After a big release though, he is like a new boy, very calm and focused and happy for the rest of the day.

I just thought it might be helpful to know there is another way to view and react to tantrums. Parents can feel at the mercy of their kid's emotions, worried about saying no due to the melt down, but this reminds us that they are just processing feelings, and each time is actually a gift we are given that we can return to them in helping them to heal. I could never even consider punishing emotional expression, not even the biggest of rage filled outbursts. I'm afraid we might create another generation of emotionally repressed medication addicts if we do.

BTW, Supernanny should be removed from public viewing, she is causing nothing but damage to our new people. She's got all the compassion of a mosquito and all the understanding of a child's emotional development of a sushi roll.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

BTW, the biggest single sign that a child needs to release hurt/trauma/stress is "misbehaviour". Aggressive behaviour, etc, that is my clue that the tears or tantrum is not far behind. I get prepared, and then set the stage for them to feel safe enough to fall apart. My kids already feel safe in this way but some families have to first show the child this because emotions have been punished in the past. And then I accept however they DO fall apart, and be their emotional rock while they purge.

It can be challenging at first, but it gets easier, and the meltdowns get fewer and fewer as past hurts are processed, then they're only dealing with fresh ones so they are less intense and less often. My daughter only had a few after I started this when she was very little. If my son keeps harping about what he can't have, I just keep gently saying he can't have it, and that I understand how frustrating that is, and that I am here for him while he deals with it.

It gives us our power to parent back. It is very liberating. And the bonus is, you don't have to do things we as parents would rather not do, such as punish, because it becomes moot... you suddenly understand where all their behaviour comes from, and what it needs to be addressed.


----------



## UmmRiyam (Mar 24, 2011)

I just wanna say that I don't jump to mention the naughty chair to my daughter every time she's doing anything 'wrong'. It's like a once a week thing, and it's something that works because she doesn't wanna sit there. What I have read about GD is that it's really idealistic in the way that there's no need for rewards or punishments, but to me, this is unrealistic. Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives. It's also the way of many religions. Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished. Many people believe in heaven and hell. So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments? Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better? Why not use that with our kids in some situations? I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline. You have to see what is best for the situation you're in. Most parents aren't trying to do anything to hurt their kids or prevent them from developing emotionally. Parents try to bring out the best in their kids in the ways they know how, and I don't think any one system works for every child in the same way.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *UmmRiyam*
> 
> I just wanna say that I don't jump to mention the naughty chair to my daughter every time she's doing anything 'wrong'. It's like a once a week thing, and it's something that works because she doesn't wanna sit there. What I have read about GD is that it's really idealistic in the way that there's no need for rewards or punishments, but to me, this is unrealistic. Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives. It's also the way of many religions. Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished. Many people believe in heaven and hell. So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments? Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better? Why not use that with our kids in some situations? I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline. You have to see what is best for the situation you're in. Most parents aren't trying to do anything to hurt their kids or prevent them from developing emotionally. Parents try to bring out the best in their kids in the ways they know how, and I don't think any one system works for every child in the same way.


Hi UmmRiyam!

Welcome to the GD forum. I think you're going to find a lot of really useful tools and ideas here.

You're right, GD is sort of about idealistic parenting and no one is perfect. We are all doing the best we can, and even those who do believe in corporal punishment feel this way. I come here because I find it helps to recognize when the tools I have chosen might not be doing the job as well as I thought, and the folks here help me brainstorm better ideas.

I do not believe in forcing religion on my kids, and I am not sure that even if I did, I would want them making their life decisions based on whether or not they went to hell, but rather, whether or not they felt good about their choices.

GD isn't about removal of all consequences and rewards (that might be some of the Unconditional parenting philosophy, but I don't really know), but it IS about trying to find gentle ways of raising little people.

There are lots of schools. Not hitting and shouting is just part of it. I try to have logical consequences where natural consequences are not acceptable, and natural consequences when they are. For example: If my son wants to throw my necklace off the balcony, the logical consequence is that he will not be allowed in my room where my nice things are stored, and he will not be allowed out on the balcony until I can trust him to not throw stuff of of it. On the other hand if he insists he wants to go out in shorts on a cold day I let him, and when he cries that it is cold he has a choice of either cutting the trip to the park short or suffering the cold and making a better choice next time. I'm okay with that (it doesn't get dangerously cold here, just uncomfortable). This is a chance for him to learn about choices and decide which choices to make next time. .

I also reward. I am motivated by rewards and bonuses and I have no problem with that aspect. I try to make rewards connected to the achievement or the behavior. So if DS has helped do the dinner dishes, I let him blow bubbles with me off the balcony from the dish soap, or if he has done really well in his reading class we get to go to the book store and pick out a new book on whatever topic he wants. I think these sort of rewards can help kids feel good about their choices and help them to make better choices in the future because they see positive consequences for those choices in the same way that negative consequences deter them from making bad choices...I just try to be careful about the consequences I choose, like I don't give money for grades or a clean room, and I don't take away toys because he's being rude, for example.

You'll find a lot of different ideas on this board to help you be the parent you want to be, and we have all had our ideas dissected and shot down. Don't worry. Just visiting this board means you have an interest in being a gentle parent and that's an awesome step.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Oh and if your own self-discipline is about fearing punishment, rather than making good choices, when the threat of punishment goes away (ie the child gets bigger and stronger than you, or you die, or they go away or grow up...) what real LEARNING has taken place that allows that child (possibly now adult) to make sound choices?

I know for me, there was nothing...so when my parents trusted me to be on my own at the age of 14 I started doing things I would have been punished for if they had found out and started highlighting for them the good things that they literally paid me for with cash, (which I used to fund the activities that would have gotten me punshied if they had known.) When I went away to university it was even worse.

I had to learn a lot of hard life lessons between 17 and 24, and I wish I had been taught to make better choices...and truthfully my parents did a pretty good job with me...you should have seen some of my friends whose parents were REALLY strict.

As a teacher I know my students don't behave or misbehave because of a system of punishments, but because of the consequences they will see as a result of their choices. They know we will have interactive fun activities if they can control themselves, and will have to sit quietly writing if they don't (because I can't organize fun activities with choas in the room) and that the better choices they make the more they learn and the better prepared they are for the future, and the more they goof around, the more likely they are fail and have to repeat the year. It's all up to them, and they make better choices for it.


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *UmmRiyam* So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments?


Tantrums are how small humans learn to deal with overwhelming emotions. It's developmentally useful and helps the individual begin to become emotionally mature. When a parent punishes or isolates for tantrums the child can become afraid to express being overwhelmed and learn to hide their emotions. Learning to hide the reactions to emotion instead of learning to deal with emotions undermines the person progress to emotional maturity and can lead to adult coping behavior that's harmful. Just one example of how fear can damage.

There's a really good book on how our parenting effects our children's brain development. It's The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. Unlike Supernanny who has her show and time that she's dealt with kids as experience Margot Sunderland is director of education and training at The Centre for Child Mental Health London. She has several books for children with various mental health issues. The book is built on over 30 years of neurological research and it's pretty easy to read.


----------



## kateye (Nov 17, 2007)

This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters! Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing! I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving. I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc. ALL DAY. I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated. I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve. We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out". Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown. Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?

Thank you!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> BTW, the biggest single sign that a child needs to release hurt/trauma/stress is "misbehaviour". Aggressive behaviour, etc, that is my clue that the tears or tantrum is not far behind. I get prepared, and then set the stage for them to feel safe enough to fall apart. My kids already feel safe in this way but some families have to first show the child this because emotions have been punished in the past. And then I accept however they DO fall apart, and be their emotional rock while they purge.
> 
> ...


----------



## WhimsicalMama (Feb 23, 2011)

Ms Fortune-I can completely sympathize with your situation. I greatly value a calm, cooperative environment so I am willing to let the kids "hold the banana" but not the matches, if that makes any sense. My husband thinks these episodes of conflict precipitated by his saying no are a necessary learning experience, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the children actually learn from any of this. Except that dad says no alot and won't let me hold the banana. I gather from your post that your frustration stems from the feeling that your husband creates unnecessary conflict by saying no when you can see there is another alternative that wouldn't result in an unhappy, battle of the wills with a tantruming toddler. It's great that your dh values GD, and there is definitely a learning curve. If you spend more time with your child, you've had more of a chance to notice the cause/effect relationship of saying no. Therefore, you've already modified your approach accordingly. Maybe he just needs more time to figure it out? If you must bring it up with him to maintain a home environment that you are comfortable living in, the conversation will go better if your dh doesn't feel criticized, which so often leads to defensiveness and then you won't be heard at all. Be empathetic to his feelings as well-he may be very frustrated with the difficulties he is encountering without realizing the root cause. Don't worry that you aren't disciplining your child. As others said, discipline is teaching. Children learn by example so leading by example is a great strategy! You don't want to end up with a child who says no to all of your requests, another good reason to avoid saying no as often as you can. With my first child, I wondered when to start using discipline. But it began with my clumsy unsure attempts to nurse him in the first few minutes of life, where he first learned he could depend on me to nurture, care for, and comfort him.


----------



## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kateye*
> 
> This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters! Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing! I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving. I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc. ALL DAY. I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated. I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve. We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out". Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown. Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?
> 
> Thank you!


I know you were asking Calm, but I have insomnia and am butting in! I think it helps a lot to stop thinking of it or calling it misbehavior, and instead think of it the way you explained it above, as needing attention/feeling frustrated. The more you can help with that, the less the undesirable behavior will occur. When I act out, it's generally because I haven't had enough sleep, or I'm stressed and need a hug and some empathy. Or a long break. Maybe think what makes you feel better when you're at your breaking point and try to give that to your son. Does he need to get out (to the park)? Does the day need to be less hectic (make a conscious effort to slow down, turn off talk radio, skip errands for a day, whatever)? Or just read books together all day (working around the four week old, of course--but at least that age is usually easy to read books around). Fill him up with love, recharge him. Maybe take a break from telling him what's not allowed. He probably already knows (since those are the things he's doing when frustrated). Oh, and talk to him about how he feels, let him know that you understand. Even tell him that you feel that way sometimes and what you find helpful at those times. Just like you said above, what helps you when you throw a tantrum. Sounds like you're on the right track 

I'm going to go try to sleep now so I can be nice to my kids all day tomorrow ;-)


----------



## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Sometimes they have a build up of emotions that need releasing and will have what we call the BCS (broken cookie syndrome). It's where they melt down over something like a broken cookie but really it is just they can no longer hold on to their feelings - past hurts or current ones - and it pours out over something unrelated and relatively small.


My son will be eight in three months; and it has been a long time since he has had a "tantrum". But a couple of days ago, he went skiing for 8 hours with my husband. He was exhausted; but really wanted to go see an old timers NHL hockey game. So they went; and had a great time. When I picked them up, he accidentally hit his ear on the car door when he was opening it. He started to cry. Actually to wale. In the car he sounded like a cat in heat He didn't want to be held or comforted. He just wanted to sit in the car while we drove and howl. It had been so long since I had seen my son get so upset. It brought back memories of when he would just cry and cry and cry sometimes. My husband was great; he knew my son was overtired, and while we were driving he kept gently saying "It's ok, just let it out. And my son would cry harder. (he seemed to know this is what he needed to do)" If my husband and I started to try and talk -he would have begin to cry a loud frustrated type of cry. We realized he needed this space; and for us to just hold it for him. . At one point I offered him a kleenex, he sobbed thank you. And then just continued to cry. When we got home he had just startled to settle down. He was calm and we carried him inside. He got his teeth brushed and went to bed where I read him a story. He was so peaceful. In this case it was because he was tired. But I remember when he was younger; it could be anything that he had been holding in and needed to release. I found ie) holding him and rubbing his back; or if he wanted space - giving him the space and checking in on him; and sometimes talking to him about the "hurt" (sometimes this was after the emotions had subsided) seemed to help him process through the emotions. It has been a almost three years since I can remember the last time he really freaked out. I think it is healthy for children to not repress emotions; but help them go through them in a safe way.


----------



## kateye (Nov 17, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adasmommy*
> 
> I know you were asking Calm, but I have insomnia and am butting in! I think it helps a lot to stop thinking of it or calling it misbehavior, and instead think of it the way you explained it above, as needing attention/feeling frustrated. The more you can help with that, the less the undesirable behavior will occur. When I act out, it's generally because I haven't had enough sleep, or I'm stressed and need a hug and some empathy. Or a long break. Maybe think what makes you feel better when you're at your breaking point and try to give that to your son. Does he need to get out (to the park)? Does the day need to be less hectic (make a conscious effort to slow down, turn off talk radio, skip errands for a day, whatever)? Or just read books together all day (working around the four week old, of course--but at least that age is usually easy to read books around). Fill him up with love, recharge him. Maybe take a break from telling him what's not allowed. He probably already knows (since those are the things he's doing when frustrated). Oh, and talk to him about how he feels, let him know that you understand. Even tell him that you feel that way sometimes and what you find helpful at those times. Just like you said above, what helps you when you throw a tantrum. Sounds like you're on the right track
> 
> I'm going to go try to sleep now so I can be nice to my kids all day tomorrow ;-)


I hope you were able to get some sleep! Thank you so much for taking your middle of the night time to reply  I found what you said to be very helpful! I desperately feel like my DS and I need to have kind of another "babymoon" of our own while I just spend time showing him love and giving the "don'ts" a break. Here's what worries me though--I don't want him to think that what he is doing is acceptable (yelling in the baby's ear, etc.) and these things are happening even when I am giving him lots of positive attention...I know I need to give him even more, but I don't think the behavior is 100% preventable even with tons of focused attention. So what should my reaction be if he does these things? Thank you in advance for any advice!!


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kateye*
> 
> I hope you were able to get some sleep! Thank you so much for taking your middle of the night time to reply  I found what you said to be very helpful! I desperately feel like my DS and I need to have kind of another "babymoon" of our own while I just spend time showing him love and giving the "don'ts" a break. Here's what worries me though--I don't want him to think that what he is doing is acceptable (yelling in the baby's ear, etc.) and these things are happening even when I am giving him lots of positive attention...I know I need to give him even more, but I don't think the behavior is 100% preventable even with tons of focused attention. So what should my reaction be if he does these things? Thank you in advance for any advice!!


When he DS's tantrum interfere with the health and safety of his sister or myself or DH we physically remove him to a safe place. Once for example he had a terrible melt down in the car while his dad was driving down a busy highway and he was kicking and screaming. It was dangerous.

We pulled over and took him out of the car seat and held him until he calmed down. It took about a half hour. DH called our friends and let them know we would be late and DS sat on my lap until he was ready to go back in the car seat. Calmly.

When DS gets so upset now that his flailing is dangerous he is taken to his room or my room where he can have his feelings safely.

Screaming in the baby's ear sounds like he has some serious anger towards the LO...any chance he has some unresolved feelings about having a new baby in the family?


----------



## kateye (Nov 17, 2007)

Sorry--I feel like I'm getting off topic from the OP and taking a lot of attention here! I think I overstated my DS's screaming--I should say screaming near DD's ear--he's not yelling at her, just trying to get my attention and since the babe is usually in the carrier on me or in my arms nursing, he's quite close to her ears. His behavior is not aggressive, angry, or dangerous, just attention-seeking, but that doesn't make it much easier to handle (if it was, I think your example of just holding the child or giving them a safe space to act is a good one)! I'm quite sure he has unresolved feelings about the baby--she's only been here for 4 weeks and he's used to being the center of our attention 100% of the time...


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Discipline as in teaching, from birth like the others have said.

Discipline as in having certain expectations that will be enforced gently (such as "you are not allowed on the table while other people are eating"), probably starting slowly around 18mos. This would also include saying "no" when you have to, and not distracting them from being upset. Though I always try to redirect to something similar that is acceptable to us both.

Discipline as in punishment (including time outs), never.








(though sometimes I do take away the object of misbehavior. Ie: if he's hitting the dog with a stick, I take the stick away and explain that I'm going to take away the temptation to hit the dog with it. I don't do it in a "you were bad, so now you must suffer" type of way, so I see it somewhat less than punishment, kwim?)

I think enforcing boundaries is always ok, though you do need to keep in mind that kiddos have limited coping abilities and are very curious about everything. I think that not allowing a kid to squash a banana is ok, no matter the age, if it truly does matter to the person who is saying no. But I also think it's ok to let them squash the banana, if it IS ok. So for me, saying no depends on if it's a true no, or if one is saying no just to "assert their authority." I don't like the latter at all, personally.


----------



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

It depends on what you mean by discipline. I mean, if my child throws something over the balcony, I say no. If he does it again, I give him time out. He is 19 months old tomorrow but was given his first time out at 17 months old (it was 60 seconds long). A couple days ago, he wanted to play outside, but it was raining and cold. So, he started screaming bloody murder until I told him we would not have that screaming. Oddly, he just stopped and found something else to do. That was kind of funny because I did not think he would stop based on that.


----------



## sarahquinn (Nov 29, 2010)

Im a big beliver in starting disipline from birth.... meaning building a trusting relationship so when later on you have to say no they are more likely to trust what your saying because you have never broken their trust. But it sounds like your a mother who believes in that too. Ive found that for most children( and adults) if you get down at eye level and explain why.... it helps to ease the frustration from the no. Also trying a differnt word or phrase, instead of saying "No" try " Not right now" or ( for an example) " can i hold the banana?".... "Daddy's holding the banana right now you can have it after after dinner" ( just a silly example but you get the point : ) )


----------



## veganfox (Nov 24, 2008)

You ladies rock! This thread is eye-opening. DS is 22 months old and sometimes a handful. Being a stay-at-home mom and responsible for most of the disciplining can take a toll on my sanity, but all the suggestions I read here make it so much easier. Thanks!!!! {{hugs}}


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kateye*
> 
> This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters! Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing! I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving. I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc. ALL DAY. I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated. I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve. We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out". Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown. Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?
> 
> Thank you!


You're welcome, Kat. Sorry for the delay, I broke my foot!









It's hard to explain this and do it any justice and it not be a novel, so here's the short version, followed by the longer version...

Aletha Solter of Aware Parenting has books and articles on this.

Books

10 Principles

articles such as...

Why do Children Misbehave?

Understanding Tears and Tantrums

Dealing with behaviour I don't like and preparing would, in short, be first making sure I am in the right head space so I don't react from a place of either frustration or even anger. Whatever I'm doing: the net, cooking... I stop and tell myself "gentle, patience, this isn't about me, this is about him, he is doing exactly what he should be doing, I have to find out why he is doing it." and get on his level and empathise. I might take him to our releasing space to cry or rage in my arms. Or I do play/laughter.

My kids *beg* for rough and physical play with us, they love it, and if they don't get it at least once a day, they aren't as easy to deal with. It builds connection, and with connection, you have power over all behaviour. I found it helpful to learn many years ago that it isn't *attention* a child craves but *connection*. The difference is hard to describe but you can give someone attention just by looking, you can't connect with someone just by looking. When parents dismiss a child's behaviour as "oh he just wants attention" they have it ass backwards. Connection is what they are hard wired to build from birth. Always question the connection, and you'll find a direct link between shoddy behaviour and a lack of connection with you. Remember to go back to the connection, that's "baseline".

Because that's deficient, I've gone into more detail...

First, to explain what "he should be doing that" means, this 3 minute video by Naomi Aldort might help:






Accepting release of emotions is a unique parenting approach in our culture, I've discovered over the years of looking and interacting. AP tends to be a big *prevention* philosophy, which has limits that become evident as soon as something was failed to be prevented. Then AP is big on *distraction*, which I find very dismissing and invalidating. When prevention and distraction fail and the tears are inevitable, it is big on doing whatever it takes to *stop* the crying/raging. These issues are where this style is different to AP... DH and I don't distract, invalidate, or turn inside out trying to stop emotional release with rocking, pacifiers, breast feeding, blankets or toys. But at the same time, punishments, bribes and rewards are not required. I've been parenting for 9 years without them, if they were necessary, surely I'd have needed them by now. We have tried to stop a crying child, of course, and we've tried distraction and definitely live trying to prevent things occurring but we didn't feel a sense of rightness about some of those things.

How it works for us for instance... we first have to examine ourselves to make sure that what he is doing is actually unacceptable behaviour and in need of curtailing. Most of it can be put down to experimenting with cause and effect because it is a favourite past time of the toddler set. (eg, I dropped something yesterday and it bounced... if I drop this vase, what happens?).

If he is upset, that one is obvious, but if it is behaviour that disrupts his sister or interferes with others in some way or he's clingy, whiny, demanding... I stop what I'm doing, go to him and crouch down and if he lets me, I hug him, I ask if he needs to get some feelings out and he usually says, "swing chair swing chair". We go to the swing chair (we have one bolted to our bedroom ceiling) and he has some sort of release and I listen and occasionally try to give his feelings words (you sound sad; that must have been very frustrating... that kind of thing). For six months now, if I get it wrong, he corrects me, like one time, "you sound very cranky, darling." and he said, "No. No cranky. I sad." This has been very helpful to learn more about him.

He almost always demands something. Like "stand up stand up", if I stand up, he demands I sit down... this used to go on an on, and no matter what I did, he was unsatisfied. I eventually cottoned on to his needs... he needs a reason to release, so he creates one. Things are much faster now, he asks for something, I say "you can have it soon, let's get some feelings out first" and he melts down. He never wants it when we're finished, btw.

Yesterday morning is an example of how I use play and laughter for healing and switching his behaviour. The slightest provocation had him screaming at someone and he was really clingy with me. I said "let's go get some feelings out" and he put a teddy on the chair and said, "mama get it." I took my cue and said, "I'll get it soon" and he started screaming "mama get it mama get it and we went to the swing chair. In a couple of minutes he looked at me and it felt like an appropriate time so I said, "You can't push ME over, I'm too big and strong!" and he shoved my chest a little and I pretended to be shocked at his strength and he smiled and did it again with more strength. This time I said WHOA and fell backwards and he giggled. I kept provoking him but letting him tackle me and win.

This gives him a sense of power that he is trying to get by harassing his sister, and a release valve of all kinds of feelings via laughter. Even better if the play is appropriate to whatever my son wants to play/process. If a dog scared him for instance, I will pretend he is a big scary dog and (without mocking him) I'll be fearful but funny and he thinks that is hilarious and wants to play it repetitively for a while. Best examples found in the book Playful Parenting

Kids live in a world where they have little control. Aggression is a sign that they feel powerless, paradoxically. Here is a vid of a boy in such play that heals aggression.

My son just recently finished a stage of tossing all the books from one of his bookshelves onto the floor. I now know most behaviour ends as mysteriously as it began, whether you smack 'em, put them in time out, yell at them, threaten or lecture... the only true remedy is time, patience, tolerance and creating an environment friendly to children.

With the books I didn't shame him about it with a look or a word, I just picked a time when he was in a good mood and made a game of picking them back up, I said, "if you're finished sorting the books... shall we put them back this way or this way?" (one laying on the side, one upright) and he decided all laying down was best. He threw them off the shelves a couple of times a week after that and each time I managed to get *him* to put them back away and I think he got tired of picking them up. Books stay on the shelf now.

Our home is very zen, everything we care one iota about is packed away and we live with only the bare essentials of couch and bookshelves. All kitchen breakables are in a magnetically locked cupboard but the rest of the kitchen equipment he can use. Which means that yes, almost every day the kitchen floor was strewn with stuff but I try to remember ... what else would I expect he do? Sit in a corner and read?? We've a few years to go for that yet.

He's sick to death of his toys, as am I, so it only makes sense that my stuff is more appealing... until he tires of it, which he did. My daughter has her bedroom and she knows that if she leaves something unattended anywhere else in the house it is subject to being lost or ruined ... there's only so much blame can be passed to children, depending on age. At a toddler's age, around here they are blameless... if they broke something, who is the idiot that left it where they could get it? It was shown it you give a baby an object they will smell it, taste it, listen to it, feel it, then they will try to break it to see how it works... all in the space of 90 seconds. Toddlers are less fast, perhaps because we've trained this efficiency out of them, but they still put objects through their paces... expecting them not to is setting both yourself and your child up for heartache and arguments and time outs that are really the parent's fault.

A jungle environment is what they are driven to explore in, finding a way to make one helps. Having outside water play, playdough, sticks, rocks, leaves, stuff to break, open, tear and throw... that kind of thing. It's usually a choice between many years of battles, or organising his environment to fit his maturity and readjusting how you see childish behaviour. What makes sense to him won't make sense to you... and along the way, as the bookshelf example shows, we still model what we want, and show them how we'd prefer they behave, but we also bend to the fact that we have a toddler in the house therefore it is a science lab so protect all valuables and then get out of the way.









People used to promise me that children must be taught and molded into how to behave in society. "oh if you don't show them firm boundaries now they'll walk all over you or become criminals" I called "bullshit" based on years of anthropological studies. My kids were never taught manners for example, but they are very polite. My son, who is three on Saturday, has said, "you're welcome" when he is thanked since he turned 2. Relax into the knowledge that they will not be doing this stuff in a few years, each stage brings the same new challenges of that age as they lay to rest the challenges of the past stages... no matter WHAT you do. All you do if you try to force these stages faster is create a rift and go to bed wishing you'd been a nicer parent.

With yelling in the baby's ear, this is an example of:

- first protect the baby.

- the child should be doing it, because he is doing it; the question is why is he doing it. Sometimes the reason is obvious (feeling jealous etc), sometimes not so obvious. Usually, it is a lack of connection.

- assess his reaction when asked to stop or when prevented. If he melts down, see point below. If he resists, insists, rebels, does it again, etc, we want to tease out the release of feelings, which in this age bracket is almost never verbal; get on his level and go through feelings and needs (courtesy of Non-Violent Communication)... with little ones, you have to try to be their mouthpiece, older kids are easier in this regard... offer words for his feelings "it's hard to have a new baby in the house; do you feel angry and frustrated?" "You are very loved, you are my special boy." (if the need to feel valued has been threatened)

- if he melts down, just be there, listen, empathise, hold him if he wants it. If he gets aggressive, he might benefit from rough play or you can show him how to punch a pillow while you give him feedback like, "my my, you ARE angry!" The success of this process is not only due to the release of emotion, but to the establishment of a firm connection.

- at other times, play scenes out where he can work through the issue, allow him to lead, maybe try something like, "Hippo has a new baby sister. He doesn't like her, he wants her to go away." and see if he shows interest.

Ack. It really isn't easy to write because one thing leads to another. Essentially though, it is about maintaining connection, and reestablishing it after even the shortest of separations, and again throughout the day... and with that, you'll be able to divine from that connection all the information about his needs. Without connection, we need rules, protocols, time out, books, plans... sigh... it just becomes too hard.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *UmmRiyam*
> 
> Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives. It's also the way of many religions. Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished. Many people believe in heaven and hell. So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments? Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better? Why not use that with our kids in some situations?


Hi UmmRiyam







.

This book goes into great detail, highly recommended:

*Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes*

I don't think the fact that rewards and punishment exist in our culture is sound evidence they are a good thing. Many awful things also exists in our culture, doesn't make them something to emulate. Plus, anything that exists in our culture is evidence that it is a bad thing, generally, considering the state of our people, society, and the planet - which we're destroying. We've messed everything up, and a ridiculously high percentage of people are medicated or at the very least, highly dissatisfied with life. I don't think anything we do is evidence we should continue to do it, quite the opposite. In fact, I use as my yard stick "which culture does this, and how well functioning is this culture?" therefore, when it comes to the white western culture... eeeerk. I'm not interested because we're such a self-obsessed, unhealthy, obnoxious, greedy bunch of brats - and it's no secret, it's a cliche for a reason.

The difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic, is with extrinsic you need the motivator to get the job done. Intrinsic motivation gets something done without that need. In fact, studies have shown that extrinsic rewards eliminate the desire to do the task at all. For example they studied children doing art work: they all started doing it just out of the joy of doing the art. Some of the children were rewarded for their art, and after a while, those ones lost enthusiasm for the art, most eventually quit unless the reward became greater and greater. The kids who were not interfered with in such a way kept the same level of enthusiasm.

There are areas of our life that are called "rewards" but really aren't. We are not "rewarded" for our jobs for instance, we are paid in much the same way barter functioned - you can have this lettuce if I can have that cabbage. That isn't a reward and can't be compared to one. So when it all boils down, our society doesn't really reward you often at *all* once you are an adult. There are sports and so on, but how many of us really get a reward of any sort for doing anything? We all deserve them, but we don't get them. So in childhood we were first messed with by shown that when you do something you get something in return other than the satisfaction of the task itself - only to be disillusioned in adulthood by the fact that there are actually NO rewards, we're expected to do all we do just because it needs to be done.

I learned from this disillusionment by trying something different with my kids. I show them the joy of a task, how to extract the greatest reward from the task itself. My father taught me that, he did not reward us like the rest of society did, but he modeled great joy in all he did, from the dirtiest, sweat inducing jobs through to simply washing dishes - he sang, he made funny songs and jokes, and he could be found doing this even when he thought he was home alone. He didn't seem to distinguish between work and play... it was all play. With the bookshelf example in my last post, I sing, I play, and nothing motivates them to join me in a task more than seeing me enjoying it.

As for religion, there are many who do not need religion to do the right thing. The religious still kill each other and act like total brats, so it doesn't seem to be something that actually works to keep us plebs in check anyway. It's another example of how fear and rewards are limited, at best, as control tactics.

Quote:


> I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline.


I don't quite understand this. There should be a balance between gentle discipline and non-gentle discipline?


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Hi UmmRiyam
> 
> ...





> This book goes into great detail, highly recommended:
> 
> *Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes*
> 
> ...





> I don't quite understand this. There should be a balance between gentle discipline and non-gentle discipline?


*I was wondering the same thing!*


----------



## kateye (Nov 17, 2007)

Calm--THANK YOU!! so very much--this is just the kind of thing I have been desperately looking for. Off to do more reading/research....hope your foot heals quickly!!


----------



## letitiah81 (Mar 9, 2011)

The bigger issue to me is the inconsistency played out in front of the kids. If daddy gave a consequence (short of being abusive) Mom needs to support it in front of the kids. Then later discuss it and decide on the best approach for next time. My DH and I have these discussions often, but we always back each other up in front of the kids. THis makes for a more consistent household and a better marriage.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I've never been rewarded as an adult, Rebekah. I'm not saying it never happens, some people compete in sports, too. But most of us are not rewarded... esp not in the way we reward children "you tidied your room, here's a gold star... you finished your homework, here's a candy...". That's just not sustainable and teaches nothing. I can't see payment for work as a reward though... that is an exchange. If we can see any payment (even that which we think is more than we're worth) then we must by extension see any payment for services a reward, and obviously they're not. When I treat a client, they aren't rewarding me with money, they are paying me in an exchange for services rendered... this exchange is legally enforced, too. If I do my job well, I am paid more but again, it's not a reward, it's what my services are worth. The rest of what you mentioned is a reward.. the pats on the back and bonuses, I agree with that.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> I've never been rewarded as an adult, Rebekah. I'm not saying it never happens, some people compete in sports, too. But most of us are not rewarded... esp not in the way we reward children "you tidied your room, here's a gold star... you finished your homework, here's a candy...". That's just not sustainable and teaches nothing. I can't see payment for work as a reward though... that is an exchange. If we can see any payment (even that which we think is more than we're worth) then we must by extension see any payment for services a reward, and obviously they're not. When I treat a client, they aren't rewarding me with money, they are paying me in an exchange for services rendered... this exchange is legally enforced, too. If I do my job well, I am paid more but again, it's not a reward, it's what my services are worth.
> 
> The rest of what you mentioned is a reward.. the pats on the back and bonuses, I agree with that.


So by that logic a child who renders a service could get paid in the currency of their choice be it gold stars, candy or cash? I guess I am not sure what the difference is? I don't mean to be obtuse, but since I pay a house keeper to clean my room, if DS cleaned his room (ergo meaning I would not need to pay the housekeeper to clean his room, shouldn't he get payment in exchange? I mean aren't chores and duties services rendered? (not finishing homework though....that's part of learning. The reward is learning something new and gaining practice with a new skill. That is the "exchange" between teacher and student.)

So...Do your clients ever tip you? Would you see that as areward for services they deemed above and beyond, or just a reflection of what they felt you were worth? I think I may have a harder time separating the two than you do. Some things are chores and I will never be convinced that anybody genuinely enjoys cleaning or doing laundry. I am more than happy to pay someone else to do it, be it my housekeeper or my child.

Is it really that rare to get rewards at work or in real life? I really don't think it is. I worked in HR out of University. It was pretty common practice back then and still is in all the places I have worked....am I just extremely lucky? Do you not get a notice in the company newsletter acknowledging a job well done after a large successful project? Even if you wrk for yourself, do you not occassionally reward yourself with a day off or a bottle of champagne to celebrate your success? Even in our consumerism we are rewarded for our loyalty to a store or restaurant, by occassional free cups of coffee or an extra bagel in the bag. In what way is that different from the gold star for meeting or exceeding expectations or responsibilities at home as a child? Do you see what I mean?

Obviously I am not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to understand what you think the difference is...mainly because I quite admire the things you have posted here and I wonder if I could be doing this better with my kids somehow.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

The best thing I can say is to read that book Punished By Rewards. He answers all those types of questions and then some.

Rewarding ourselves is the way it should be, it's not ideal, but at least we are then relying on ourselves which is partially intrinsic.

I also think that not everyone dislikes washing... some dislike making beds but love dishes, some dislike laundry but love mowing. You dislike cleaning and doing laundry but I'm sure you don't mean you couldn't believe others don't dislike that. My father loved life, and life is all those things, we can't isolate parts of it, esp the parts that are in it every day, and say we don't like it - not without suffering. Which is what most people do, they dislike something because culture has told them it is a task that sucks. But just because culture tells us that, doesn't make it true. What's the difference between dipping photo paper under the developing liquid and a dish under detergent water? Only our mind tells us there is a difference... the photographer tells herself there is more reward in the photo development.

No matter what we do, we're just doing something ordinary with a different backdrop... we're still inhaling, exhaling, walking, sitting, talking... it's not what we're doing that makes an experience good or bad, but our perception. The most fundamental secret to happiness is also the most simple. Captured in the cliche, "Happiness is not the destination, it is the journey." If we are always looking beyond what is into what could be or what we'd prefer to be doing, then we miss the constant, present opportunity for joy and contentment.

The joy is not derived from the task but from our perception of the task. Joy is either within you in the moment or it isn't. Have you ever, even just once, enjoyed cleaning? Did you ever do it with a giddy feeling of wonder and joy? If you have, you'll remember that it wasn't that the task was any different, it was that you were different. When we are truly present in this very moment right now, then we can only experience joy. If we are too busy thinking about yesterday, that girl at the mall, all the things I could be achieving instead of mopping this floor... then there is no joy there.

When we are here now, in this moment, whatever we are doing is where the joy is... whether the backdrop is a gorgeous tropical sunset or a cloudy rainy concrete London street - that's just a backdrop. If we are not here now, then we may indeed rely on a reward, which only intensifies our distraction from this moment and puts it firmly on "later": ie, "When I'm finished THIS bunch of crap, I'll get THAT bunch of good stuff", the current moment is definitely elusive to the person focused on rewards.

I do think it is rare to get rewards in adult life. Unless you count a pay check. Ask any mother... what rewards do you get? She won't have any extrinsic ones on that list. Me personally, I get no extrinsic rewards, not even for work (which I don't currently do for payment, I treat occasionally for free, but I'm including when I do work for money). And if we count freebies for loyalty and so on, there are rare rewards but can we say that is the same, in any context, to rewarding a child for doing what needs to be done? It may be just as manipulative, to reward a customer for loyalty or reward a child for cleaning... true. We do it for the same purpose: we want them to repeat that behaviour. We are hoping to encourage the behaviour because we don't think the coffee, or cleaning, in itself, is enough to entice that.

Rewards may occur, on a rare occasion, or more if you live a city/social/working/sporting life, but overall, it is not common for most of us, and is generally not comparable to the reward system children are introduced to.

Whether we agree or not that payment for services is a reward, the fact is, rewards perpetuate and encourage a life of illusions. A life lived "tomorrow", a life where we are never truly here now, but in constant chasing of the bigger better moment. America was cursed with "Life, liberty and *the pursuit of happiness*". What they should have written is simply "Life, liberty and happiness". Then perhaps they would stop pursuing it and start to be it.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Thanks for that. I see what you're saying. I still will never find joy in cleaning. Never have, never will. It's no more or less awful than eating dry unsalted lima beans. But then that's why I pay someone else to do it for me so I can spend my time doing things that I truly enjoy. Maybe that's why I see my salary as a reward, because I love my job and it's like total gravy that I get money for it!

I also feel very much rewarded when my son draws me a picture or my daughter (like she just did this second) looks up and gives me a milky grin like I am the best thing in her life. They're not the sort of rewards most kids in a materialistic society are given, that's true. But they feel very much to me like the gold stars I got at school when I was a kid. There I was just doing what I wanted to do anyway, what was expected of me, what made me happy, and out of nowhere this lovely little acknowledgement, a tiny token of appreciation to remind me that I'm special. It was nice especially when the task was especially hard, painful or tedious.

I'm not being obtuse, I can see what the dangers are and how they can be overused and become a warped expression of value, how the achievement can be all about the reward. I usually spend the first semester of any school year untraining kids to expect As and 100s, stickers, and sweeties for merely showing up and following instructions or caring one iota about learning, and to stop expecting rewards just for following basic student guidelines. It is an arduous task to undue unhealthy rewards systems, but then when they do achieve that A , they see it as a symbol for what the true reward is, knowledge and stronger skills. I do get that, and I see the dangers first hand. On the other hand, I also need a reward to force myself to eat my lima beans, so to speak, if the lima beans must be eaten . I just have a hard time comparing photo developing with dish washing...I know what the dish is going to look like when I take it out of the water...it will be the same as before, but with less food on it. A photo will be a piece of art, unique and is a discovery. As a result, I have a hard time not offering the odd spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, ya know? Like blowing bubbles off the terrace when we're done with doing dishes, or taking the boy out for ice cream if he tidies his toys up without complaining. Not to the point where he expects the reward, but now and then to say "THANKS! You're awesome!"


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't think you're being obtuse at all. I'm just the same when I don't agree with something... it's like, well, teach me or explain further because I just ain't seein' it, luv. It's a shame we're all a little worried about going deep into any issue, we fear looking pushy, "harping" on an issue... all number of things that prevent us from truly diving deep into things and pressing each other for more intimacy, depth, mental processing. I also find it interesting that people can't disagree without making it personal. I often message people I haven't agreed with on a thread as a personal courtesy, as a human contact thing.. I mean after all, we're human and aren't we trying to model to our kids all this stuff? Yet you'd be surprised (or perhaps not) at how often I am outright ignored - they just can't cope with leaving an issue with the topic, not the person.

What you mentioned above... that's ok by me... we can call anything we want a reward. As long as we realise that when it is used as bait or a bribe or if it is required to get the job done then it is probably best kept from children and left with us adults... we can drink a bottle of plonk and call it a reward if it floats our boat. We're the one labeling it a reward not someone else, and that's the first step to healing from reward addiction.

My parents never rewarded me, they didn't give me any kind of thing as thanks or for a job well done - but they never punished me either. Yet I always knew they felt I was the best thing since sliced bread. And I was never in any doubt when they were happy or upset with me. I think in the end we are most comfortable to parent in the way we ourselves were parented... no matter how much we loved or hated their methods.

I understand how it can be difficult to do something, and initially have to do it mindfully until it becomes automatic. I found it hard not to praise my kids but I try very hard not to. I instead had had to learn how to feedback the details. Instead of "good boy!" I say, "thank you for putting the glass in the sink" instead of "what a nice painting" I say, "I love the way you used pink for the tree". Although not easy for me initially, I resonated with the reason why this is more useful and less judgmental. I know that if I do something, I feel the person really saw it if they give feedback instead of an overall judgement of good/bad.


----------



## Thedomesticyogi (Apr 3, 2011)

This is awesome! With a baby and 3 year old I rarely have time at night to discuss and then forgot the next day. This is a great reminder that I need to make a better effort to make sure we are on the same page. Right now my DH is so hard on my son, and I really want him to be more compassionate and parent encouraging more intrinsic behavior as discussed above. It's so hard! And we end up arguing in front of my son. UGH. We really need some alone time to discuss this! THanks!


----------



## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

wow this is exactly like my husband and I. Dead frickin on. Exactly. Etc. lol

well ours is younger (18 months( but this is exactly our interaction about this...


----------



## happymommy1 (Mar 26, 2011)

Birth, begin having expectations as soon as possible. If you a re positive, as you state you try to be, then this will carry you for a while. I like to be positive and teach what TO DO not what NOT to do. However you will have to say no or not for baby or not now sometimes. When child accepts it the first time, praise praise praise.


----------



## banarain27 (Apr 11, 2011)

This is a great thread, lots of really good information.


----------



## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kateye*
> 
> This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters! Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing! I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving. I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc. ALL DAY. I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated. I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve. We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out". Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown. Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?
> 
> Thank you!


I agree this thread has been greatly informative! Especially since I am relatively new to AP & GD. I feel so confident with DD (10 weeks) because it's all I've done with her, but DS' infancy was not as ideal - like someone else mentioned, I absolutely did what I thought was best, but in some areas I was sorely undereducated or misinformed. Just wanted to reply to your post and let you know DS (now 2 years 8 months) had some very similar behavior issues when DH returned to work and it started being just the 3 of us during the day. I tried to be firm in the beginning and it also backfired, and I realized it was because he was just needing love, love, love, love. It took a few weeks, a million hugs, and endless "I love you sweeties" "I know this is frustrating for you" "I understand it makes you angry when I am nursing Jeana" and "Mom still has all the time in the world to play and cook and cuddle with you" .... but now 10 weeks out, he is just happy as a clam, and the only person my DD loves as much as me is her big brother!!! He talks to her and tries to play with her and include her in everything and etc... the adjustment is hard for a toddler who is so used to 100% of your attention, but just keep reassuring him and he will get there!


----------

