# baby center babies vs some of our babies?



## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I generally read only this mothering.com forum. Occasionally, I do check-out the babycenter.com threads but find, for the most part, I don't seem to occupy the same "head space" as many of the baby center.com participants.

I don't know if I'm breaking any forum rules here .... I hope not. ... I 'm not trying to start any flaming or arguments. I am just so curious. Why do I read all sorts of literature from La Leche, articles and posts on this site, kelly.com etc. - all saying it's normal and okay to have your baby and toddler wake through out the night. YET, when I read the "expert" medical doctors on babycenter.com or the messages on the bulletin boards or even talk with most of my friends who are moms or my medical doctor or my mother-in-law, for goodness sake - THEY ALL seem think a baby should be sleeping 8 hours straight, the sooner the better. And, why do so many people on babycenter.com seem to have children who sleep in such long stretches. I just don't understand why I have a one year old son who rarely sleeps longer than 2 hours and often less than 1 hour. La Leche says this is normal. Yet, my friend's kids both slept at 6 weeks of age for 10 hours straight! This girl friend would not know how to cope with my son!

Anyway, I hope I'm making sense. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I just don't understand how there is such a dramatic difference in opinion and sleeping patterns. Maybe this is a stupid question. Just wondering what I can say to my MIL next time she tells me my son should be sleeping for 12 hours straight!


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

i think a lot of the conventional sleep beliefs are based on the old methods that promoted getting babies independant asap for the convenience of the parents. you know, those theories that if you hold the baby too much or (GASP) sleep with baby, they will never learn to be independant and will depend on you forever.

while i believe a lot of what they have about total sleep needs, i put little stock in their theories about now much sleep a baby should get before waking.

i have a 6 month old and this is my theory... no one sleeps "thru the night". we all wake at intervals throughout the night, resettle ourselves and go back to sleep. most of the time we don't even realize we do this b/c we've learned to do it without waking fully. babies aren't born with this skill and when they wake they are unable to get back to sleep without some kind of aid (nursing, rocking, etc). eventually, they all learn, but like any developmental milestone (like rolling, sitting, crawling, walking, etc) they reach it at different times.

the "sleep training" parents do, like CIO, is an attempt to accelerate it.

jmo, of course, my dd is only 6 mo, so what do i know, except that i haven't had a full night's rest since the second trimester! LOL


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## tuscany123 (Feb 15, 2004)

People always ask me if my DD (6 months) is sleeping thru the night. I agree with the PP, I don't think most babies truly sleep thru the night, the real question is, do they go thru the night without "disturbing" their parents!! So, do we as AP mothers respond to our children in a loving way, and help them get resettled, versus others who may wait and see if the baby will eventually cry or fuss, and resettle himself without bugging the parents? I used to get really hung up on this issue, and wondered why my daughter did not sleep thru the night. She actually did sleep all the way thru from 8 wks to 12 wks, but that quit when I went back to work! Now she SOMETIMES sleeps thru, but now she's teething, so that' s another issue. It doesn't help when her Pedi is constantly askimg her father and I about her sleeping habits, and basically inferring that we are creating a monster my letting her nurse on demand at night, and sleep in our bed. We were told we would be still sleeping with a 3 year old if we didn't get her out of our bed now! My DH (bless his heart!), called me at work hours after the appt and said "so what if she's still with us when she's 3!! (hurray hubby!). So, I just don't buy into the sleep myth any more. Our babies need us as much at night as during the day, and by golly, that's all there is to it!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

It's very simple.

There is a very sad LACK of good solid studies on cosleeping that don't START OUT with the premise that the longer baby sleeps without waking, the better.

These "scientists" have never questioned that basic assumption. What if it ISN'T normal for a baby to sleep through the night? Under what conditions has "normal" sleep been measured? (answer: babies who sleep isolated in cribs and often separate rooms, most of whom were formula fed, and most of who were sleep trained - CIO - from the get-go).

James McKenna is one of the few to document night time behaviour in infants who have routinely coslept since birth and are exclusively breastfed. *This has been the normal standard for thousands and thousands of years.* Therefore THIS represents the TRUE norm for infant sleep.

The fact that our society is woefully unequipped to deal with that, doesn't make it any less normal, or even less desirable.

The effects of nightwaking vs sleeping through the night are almost universally determined in light of how they affect the PARENTS. There are hardly any studies that look at what the effects are on the baby. They measure stress, exhaustion, and sleep deprivation on the parents, then blame excesses on the baby instead of looking to the parents' own environment (does the mother have any support? is the father away long hours? is there extended family around? support? etc).

I absolutely believe that many kids can be trained to sleep through the night by using CIO. But I don't believe it is at all in their best interests.

Besides, it is estimated by most "sleep experts" (especially the real sleep training CIO ones) that up to 30% of American babies have "sleep disorders" or "sleep issues". Well, we all know that intentional cosleepers do NOT make up 30% of the population (estimates are around 7 to 8%) so obviously crib-sleeping, sleep trained, babies are just as prone to "sleep issues" as cosleeping kids, but people so readily dismiss that.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
It's very simple.

The effects of nightwaking vs sleeping through the night are almost universally determined in light of how they affect the PARENTS. There are hardly any studies that look at what the effects are on the baby. They measure stress, exhaustion, and sleep deprivation on the parents, then blame excesses on the baby instead of looking to the parents' own environment (does the mother have any support? is the father away long hours? is there extended family around? support? etc).

I absolutely believe that many kids can be trained to sleep through the night by using CIO. But I don't believe it is at all in their best interests.

.

ITA with Piglet! Especially the above.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

It's strange because people always ask me if my baby sleeps through the night, I say yes, because he does. But we co-sleep, I wake a couple times (everytime) when he moves, he does nurse -sometimes- at night, I just don't think of this as a problem. I am happy, I don't feel sleep deprived. So this is my definition of "sleeping through the night". maybe it's not the same definition as a babycenter mom (I belong to their march'04 board and I think it's safe to say 90% of women ff their babies) they also let their babies CIO, (women ask "when" they can start when their babes ARE 6 WEEKS OLD...) how awful.

In my opinion, and I am going to risk sounding mean and discriminatory, but people at MDC are much more educated and informed. This is why we don't EXPECT our kids to sleep through the night when they are so young. Because they were never supposed to. Most moms at babycenter (the ones that I met, anyway) had their kids, loved being pg, loved the baby showers, the gifts, baby stuff, but when baby was born, they got hom and went "ok baby, time to be independent and stop bothering me. I feel like getting my life back"

If you post at babycenter (whoever does) please note I am NOT talking about you or EVERYONE at babycenter.com, just the people I met at the board I -used to- post in.


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## Geofizz (Sep 25, 2003)

(Nothing really to add to above posters....ITA on all points)

To reply to the Mom/MIL comment: I've wondered if our parents think that babies should be sleeping longer stretches because they were told to put their kids on their tummies to sleep. Babies sleep much more soundly on their tummies.

(I read somewhere that the reason that tummy sleeping and SIDS are related is that some babies may sleep so soundly that they are unable to rouse themselves when something goes wrong. This can't explain all SIDS deaths, but maybe a chunck of them...)


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## brusselsprout (Jan 19, 2003)

When Deek was a baby his doctor told me that sleeping thru the night was defined as after a baby wakes the first time and settles back to sleep, usually at around 11pm or midnight until 5 or 6 in the morning. So basically he was asking if my son got one good 6 hour stretch of sleep in there.

I have only ever had one friend who's baby slept longer periods that that at one stretch and we always kind of raised our eyebrows at them. They would feed the baby 2 full bottles in a row and then put her to bed. Never even really checked on her or anything.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

So is the concensus here that CIO is the reason for ALL those other babies I hear about who are such great sleepers? Because I've wondered about this, too. I have friends who don't CIO and acquaintances (don't really know well enough to ask) whose babies all are great sleepers. I'm talking kids who naturally fall asleep at 7pm and sleep for 12 hours. You couldn't define paradise any better than that for me right now!

Now, I know that mine who woke up repeatedly till 2 1/2 and my current up-every-two-hours 16mo are only doing what babies do. But is it all babies? I know I've asked myself why other parents got lucky with kids who sleep through the night while I'm still sleep deprived.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Babycenter is a huge forum so I think it depends on the board you visit. There are many great Moms who frequently post and share in that community as well







I regularly post on the CIO debate board so yes I know exactly what you are referring to. All of their sleep experts advocate CIO so what does that tell you, they also offer some twisted advice about vomitting and head banging/rocking. If you enjoy a good debate regarding the risk in CIO than please check it out.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

just a question... when you say your babes wake a lot at night. what do they do?
do they want to play? nurse? be rocked/walked to sleep?

My baby sleeps most of the time for a full 8 hour stretch. we cosleep so he maybe awakens a couple times but I don't. I am a light sleeper, though, I would think I'd wake if he did. Sometimes he wants to nurse at night. He doesn't cry or anything, he just starts moving, I assume he wants to eat and nurse him.


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## sarahmae1 (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
In my opinion, and I am going to risk sounding mean and discriminatory, but people at MDC are much more educated and informed. This is why we don't EXPECT our kids to sleep through the night when they are so young. Because they were never supposed to. Most moms at babycenter (the ones that I met, anyway) had their kids, loved being pg, loved the baby showers, the gifts, baby stuff, but when baby was born, they got hom and went "ok baby, time to be independent and stop bothering me. I feel like getting my life back"

If you post at babycenter (whoever does) please note I am NOT talking about you or EVERYONE at babycenter.com, just the people I met at the board I -used to- post in.


Yes, I agree. I post at BC and I have found this to be the case on many of the boards, but as Quillian said - it depends upon the board!









Hi Quillain! Do you 'regonize' me? I host at BC!

Oh, I wanted to add that my new baby does sleep for a good long strech at night, but his older bro didn't until he was much older. All babies are different!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My baby rarely ever "woke up" at night. She would stir, root for the breast, take it and nurse, then pop off when she fell asleep. I was only partly awake for these feedings, and could never remeber exactly how many times I fed her, come morning, lol. I kept meaning to write it down, just for curiosity's sake, but at the time I was not feeling like disturbing myself.

I think loving-my-babies also makes a good point. It depends on how you define "sleep problems". If your baby is in a crib down the hall and wakes five times a night, then you will have a problem. But if your baby is right beside you and just stirs until they get a boob, and you barely wake up...well, no problem!









It also depends on your expectations (b/c "sleep problems" are defined differently in different cultures) and also what sort of life you lead. If you are a SAHM with a good support network of family and friends you might have it easier than a mom who starts work at 7 am, works a 10 hour day, then comes home and tends to house and baby...both of you may have kids who wake frequently, but the one with support and a flexible schedule has a better chance of finding extra sleep/nap time than the other.

Finally, I wanted to say that I liked the comment about how excited everyone is when they are pregnant, decorating the nursery, and picking out crib fabrics...but after the babymoon is over, they want baby to disturb their lives as minimally as possible. Baby needs to be held all the time? Well, who has time for that? I've got step dance class and a casserole recipe to make, blah blah blah...so let baby cry in his bouncy seat until he gets used to it. Etc, Etc....One mama on my old board weaned to formula after 6 months of BFing b/c she "wanted her body back" (no nursing problems, no sleeping problems). Good lord, is a year or so too much to ask for your children?

I will just never understand such women. Not saying they are evil...I just don't understand them at all.

_PS - please don't lets launch an invasion at babycenter. after recently being invaded by another horde that wished to "show us the error of our ways", it would NOT be cool to start that sort of thing over again. thanks._


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## sahm23boys2003 (May 21, 2004)

I think that there are so many mass generalisations and stereotypes out there.....that new moms seldom really know which way to turn. This is especially for a brand new Mom. My 5yr old ds "slept" through the night around 9 months old. That is he began to wake less frequently and was alseep for longer intervals, about 5-6 hour stretches. He was ebf, slept side-car. Even from the first few weeks, this guy was a "sleeper"! I think it was around 4weeks that he slept for a 4 hour stretch and man, I was nervous! But I thought - YAY, he "slept thru the night"

My twin ds's on the other hand, at 10months old are very different sleepers! One will sleep through from 9pm to 5am while the other will sleep for maybe 3 hours at a time during the "night". He will stir and sleep sorts restlessly and sometimes wake up to have a play for a few minutes then conk out again.
They too are ebf (tho close to weaning) and sleep side-car. SO if you had asked me when my older ds was around 6 weeks if he "slept thru the night" and I said well Yeah! You probably would have immediately lumped me into those who CIO and visit BC. When had someone took the time to dig deeper, my idea of sleeping throought the night at 4-6 weeks was a good solid 4 hour stretch!

which parents are better and who has better babies - those on babycenter or those here? I think this is a bit rude actually. I thinks its the wording that makes me feel rather yuck! I try to gently and informatively (not with condesention or an air of superiority) sway Moms to a more ap/natural way of parenting. I think that one of the things that needs to be overcome about AP/GD/NAtural PArenting is the "sterotype" that all of us who do it are Pushy, Intolerant and Preachy "better than you because I do <x,y,z>" granola types. Threads like this do nothing to help eliminate that sterotype whatsoever!


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I've always thought it was because they were using formula. Breastmilk is digested faster so babies get hungry soon and wake up wanting to eat.

I also agree with the thought that parents seem to think children are an inconvenince. I think if I was working and getting up twice during the night, I would have much different feelings about it than I do as a SAHM. I don't get up at 5:00 a.m. like some moms have to in order to get to work by 8:00, so I'm not sleep deprived when I have to get up during the night. I'm never up for more than 10 minutes, so sleeping from 10 to 6:30 while getting up twice works just fine.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

QUOTE: I think loving-my-babies also makes a good point. It depends on how you define "sleep problems". If your baby is in a crib down the hall and wakes five times a night, then you will have a problem. But if your baby is right beside you and just stirs until they get a boob, and you barely wake up...well, no problem!

It is comments like this that make even the most dedicated co-sleeper like myself completely crazy. Piglet68, I don't doubt for a minute that your nighttime scenario plays out exactly as you describe it. But it doesn't for me, no siree! Dr. Sears will also lead you to believe - and expect - that a nursing mother, sleeping with her child, just "naturally" nurses it back to sleep without hardly becoming conscious.

Hooey! When my baby wakes up, I wake up. And I mean, WAKE UP. As in, must lie there waiting for sleep to come after he's nursed to sleep. Over and over and fricking over. I am fully conscious, it's not a sweet parenting moment at all. Now of course, what I go through is a whole lot easier than what I'd deal with were he down the hall in a crib. And believe me, you wouldn't hear me complaining if we were only talking twice a night. But we're not. (Insert hollow laugh).

Happily, he's my second, and so I know this won't go on forever.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

Thank you everyone. At the end of the day, I guess sleeping habits really depend on the individual baby. I have read thoses studies by McKenna as well as Meredith Small's Our Babies, Ourselves and am aware that most of society for most of history have had babies who co-sleep and nurse frequently, on demand. So, why I can't just ignore the people surrounding me who tell me about their babies who sleep for 8,10 or 12 hour straights, I don't know. No matter how good a job I think my son and I are doing, I still, have nagging thoughts, somewhere in me, that maybe I am doing something wrong. And, yet, I know that babies, in general, have short sleep cycles. I think I've got to just move on and get some thicker skin!!!

THANKS EVERYONE!!!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

My 2 cents: I often wonder how many of these people just sleep through their kids waking. Do you know how often I have heard from grand parents, cousins, aunts, et that commented on the baby crying and mom not getting up?

I have a friend who as a teen lived with her older sister. This sister swears up and down her babies were sleeping through the night at 6 weeks. The truth was the sister was but she (my friend) would get up and take care of them because she could not stand to hear them cry.

Also, when I had strep and on meds my children were sleeping in other rooms. My youngest was sleeping on the couch with daddy. I comment how lucky she decided to sleep for the last few days. My husband corrected me "You might of but we didn't". I honestly do not remember even waking to nurse her half the time. My husband watch closely to be safe.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
My 2 cents: I often wonder how many of these people just sleep through their kids waking.

ITA! Case in point: my bro and sil. They have a split-bedroom floorplan in their home so the master bedroom is not directly next to the children's rooms. My dh and stayed with them for a month while we were moving, and their toddler woke up at least 2-3 times every single night. My sil is a total CIO mom who has told me time and time again that babies have to be "taught" how to go to sleep at night and swears this is the only way. But her kids don't actually sleep. Every time this toddler cried at night it would wake my own ds up. Ds got to come and cuddle in with mom and dad and go right back to sleep, while his cousin remained crying and crying upstairs. Before I had a baby of my own, when I would stay at their house, I would always get up with their children, sometimes several times a night. Not only the baby/toddler, but the preschool age children too. The only time my bro and sil would come get them would be when I would take the crying child and stand right outside their door so the HAD to hear it. Even if they do hear the children cry, they ignore it, but a lot of the time they don't even hear it.

I think the formula/digestion issue is only a small piece of the puzzle. My ds had to be bottlefed and he woke up many times a night for a long time.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

my ds didn't sleep through until he was 2, then started waking again after dd was born (i had milk again and he wanted to drink it :LOL) when he was 2.5 and didn't start sleeping through again until i nught weaned him. actually, i don't know that he sleeps through now, as he always ends up cuddled up to me - not sure if he's sleep cuddling or actually waking up to snuggle. dd, OTOH, has slept through since she was 5 weeks old. it started at 6-8 hour increments and by 12 weeks or so, she was sleeping 12-14 hours. both were breastfed, both slept in the same room as me (ds in a cosleeper until i learned to nurse laying down, dd was in a pack 'n' play bassinet at the end of the bed, then a crib next to the bed, now *in* the bed). anyhow, in my mind, dd is the abnormal one. i'm not complaining - at her age, ds was reverse cycle nursing - waking at least hourly to nurse. anyhow, dd will occaisionally stir, but not for the breast. when she was tiny, i'd hear her sucking on her hand in the middle of the night and try to feed her, but she'd push the breast out of her mouth and shove her hand back in. for the most part, though, most people i know with kids who slept through at an early age did some sort of CIO - or the baby slept down the hall without a monitor - so who knows if they *really* slept through.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Hi ya Sarah!! What board do you host?


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## sarahmae1 (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quillian*







Hi ya Sarah!! What board do you host?

I host the Starting Solids board and co-host the Feeding Questions board. I am also around on a few other boards occasionally as a member. What is your sn at BC?


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

I think a lot of it has to do with where these babies sleep. I co-slept with DS (same bed) and he woke to nurse 2-5 times a night until he weaned. But he never cried to nurse, just snuffled a bit until I popped the breast into his mouth, then back to dreamland. DD sleeps in a co-sleeper next to our bed and "wakes" only once a night. I think it would be more appropriate to say that she wakes ME, only once a night. I'm sure she wakes more often, but she sucks her fist to get back to sleep. I think because she's not right beside me, I am less likely to be woken by her "snorfeling". I can only imagine that a baby in a crib, down the hall, would be heard even less than my DD in her co-sleeper, giving her parents the impression that she's sleeping "through the night".


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

A lot of the difference, I am convinced, has to do with co-sleeping vs crib sleeping, not necessarily CIO. I co-slept until my daughter was six months, and just stopped a couple of weeks ago. The difference is amazing. She was waking to nurse, or play, or fuss 3-5 times between 11 and 6. I was very sleep deprived. In the early months, she would just nurse, and GO BACK TO SLEEP, which was fine for me. After five months, she started waking more often, and staying awake longer. I couldn't take it any longer. I am amazed by the mamas who live like that year after year being "really" woken several times a night. I felt like a POW. Anyway, moving my babe into her crib did not seem traumatic for either of us. I didn't do any CIO, or ignore her. I just put her in the crib when she went down early in the eveing. Instead of popping up every couple of hours, she sleeps pretty solidly. Many nights, she is sleeping 7pm to 6am, like the Baby Center babies. About half the time, she wakes fullly to nurse around midnight, and then back in the crib. I have seen her stir, and even fuss for a minute, in her sleep. For six months, I would be woken and tend to her at those times. Now, it doesn't register, and she is able to stay asleep on her own. I think we are both doing better with more sleep. Sometimes, long-term co-sleeping doesn't work out for people, and they are no less responsive or attached to their babes. Although I am a proponent of co-sleeping, for us, it really only worked well during the first couple of months, when she had to be nursed every 90 minutes. The last month or two, we were just keeping each other up, I think. I am actually very glad I made the transition now, because I think if I waited even a couple more months, she would have been very set in her ways, and resitive. So, if I have a second one, that's the deal: We co-sleep for 3-4 months, then into the crib.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahmae1*
I host the Starting Solids board and co-host the Feeding Questions board. I am also around on a few other boards occasionally as a member. What is your sn at BC?

My sign in is the same with a 1 on the end







: . The boards you host must be rewarding. I have occasionally ventured over for advice and have gotten some excellent info


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
A lot of the difference, I am convinced, has to do with co-sleeping vs crib sleeping, not necessarily CIO. I co-slept until my daughter was six months, and just stopped a couple of weeks ago. The difference is amazing. ....if I have a second one, that's the deal: We co-sleep for 3-4 months, then into the crib.

Just please keep in mind the dangers (re: SIDS) of young babies sleeping too deeply.

One of the reasons babies sleep longer when not beside a parent, is that the parent is not there to guide their sleep cycles. They tend to spend longer periods of time in a deep stage of sleep than cosleeping babies, and it is believed by many experts that this is a risk factor for SIDS.

Sleeping longer isn't always better. The parent must weigh the risks of their current sleep situation and the effects of sleep deprivation on the parent, versus putting their child at risk for sleep-arousal disorders like SIDS and sleep apnea.

Also, I think that cosleeping brings about an awareness of the baby that is not had by non cosleeping mothers. The former automatically wake up when baby stirs, but the latter are shown to sleep much more deeply, in states where they aren't as aware of baby's arousals, etc. This may or may not be a good thing.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

okay, here's my 2 cents...i think one reason the OP hears MDC mamas talking about nightwaking and baby center mamas not is because more challenging kids (sleep and otherwise) lead lotsa mamas into attachment parenting. i know that was the case with us. dd1 didn't want to be anywhere but right beside me in the bed at night. that's how we came to be cosleepers. we tried for about a week to put her in a cradle right beside the bed, but she would have none of it. the question might not be why are MDC babies cosleeping/nightwaking more, but why are MDC mamas cosleeping more and it might at least partially be because their babies are the kind who demand to be next to mama like my first did. now i know a lot of mamas here didn't fall into AP and cosleeping like i did, but were planning it long before they even TTC'd, but i daresay there are quite a few mamas here who became AP and cosleepers in response to their babies' needs rather than the babies waking in response to cosleeping. does that make any sense or clear as mud??

now that i know what i know, though, dd2 has never spent a night not snuggled up right next to me and i love it. i'd be a nervous wreck with her in the crib.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

My experience has been much like Raven's. We had DD in a cosleeper for her first 4.5 months and recently transitioned her to the crib, where she is actually sleeping better. She is an extremely active baby--needs to move around to resettle--and the cosleeper (Baby Bunk) was too confining for her. She was getting quite restless. She is also a very light sleeper and we had a lot of problems with our movements waking her (she would then cry out). She now wakes up once or twice to nurse.

But she was born a naturally long sleeper and went for 4 hours at 6 weeks old. Also, we never did full-on cosleeping. Our bed was too small and its design too full of "gaps" for it to feel safe, and when we did try it, I found that DD kicked and struggled much of the night. She is not a snuggly baby, and wants her own space a lot. It kind of breaks my heart, but that's the baby we were given.

I find the implication that anyone who decides crib sleeping works better than cosleeping for her family is recklessly choosing SIDS and apnea danger as troubling as the assumption that anyone who cosleeps is recklessly choosing overlying/suffocation danger.


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## romoma (Jun 7, 2004)

i have often wondered this myself... i think Baby Center is a pretty good slice of mainstream american baby life, and in general it does seem like crib-sleeping babies are "better" sleepers (this value judgment is extrapolated from the cultural attitude toward sleep, not from me). whether moms AP because babies are needy and inherently less likely to sleep, or babies are taught to sleep more lightly because of their proximity to mom (and milk) is a question of nature vs. nurture, really. Either way, it's damn annoying to hear about when you're feeling sleep-deprived and burnt.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I find the implication that anyone who decides crib sleeping works better than cosleeping for her family is recklessly choosing SIDS and apnea danger as troubling as the assumption that anyone who cosleeps is recklessly choosing overlying/suffocation danger.

Well, the difference is that cosleeping has been shown NOT to be associated with overlying/suffocation, whereas crib sleeping has been shown to be associated with greater incidents of sleep apnea and of SIDS.

With that said, I never used the word "reckless". I think it is wrong to make a child cosleep if they obviously want some space. I said the decision needs to be made with the risks considered. We consider the risks every time we put our kids in the car, but I don't think one would classify car-driving mamas as making "reckless decisions".

The point I was trying to make is that sleeping longer is not necessarily a good thing for young babies. The notion that all babies (even all babies for one mother) should be transitioned at 4 - 5 months is, IMO, wrong. Perhaps for that one baby the situation made crib sleeping the better option, but I think it is NOT in the best interests for MOST babies and so each child should be considered uniquely. And there are reasons to wait...hang in there a few more months until the SIDS risk has passed, if possible.

Decisions should be informed ones. I felt this information needed saying.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

I had an idea while reading these posts stemming from a memory of the Sears study on co-sleeping vs. crib sleeping in seperate rooms (didn't the baby in the study stop breathing more times, like 36, while during the coslept time the baby only stopped breathing like 3 times?).

Wouldn't a baby who had breathing difficulties during sleep have less oxygen during that time and therefore need more sleeping time to achieve rest and growth? Could this explain why a crib slept baby not in parent's room may sleep longer?

Just an idea about why there might be a difference...

Jenne


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## tuscany123 (Feb 15, 2004)

This is an interesting thread, particularly the post about AP arising from the Babies needs, rather than a planned parenting choice. I definately fall into the latter category. I am a 38 yr old first-time parent of a 7 month old DD, and I had no clue about parenting. Before I gave birth, I was given the book BabyWise, and read it cover to cover







. When my child was born, I resisted all efforts to put her in bed with me. The 1st night in the hospital, my baby (rooming in with me) cried and cried. The nurse came in, and saw my horrifed look. She told me my baby missed being close to me, bundled her up and put her in bed with me. (pretty unusual for most hosptials whan you think about it!) I was scared that this was horribly wrong, and could not sleep, after about an hour, I put my DD back in her basinet. My DD turned out to be what Dr Sears described as a high-needs child, but I still never clued in to the fact that what my baby wanted was more time close to me. She wanted to be held all the time. She was a colicky, GERD baby, and went undiagnosed for a long time. Nights were horrific, with her crying from 7pm to 1am non-stop. Hubby and I would take turns pacing the floors with her. Not once did we consider bringing her to bed with us. I can almost cry just writing this!







We just resigned ourselves that this was the way our baby was wired. Well, finally, out of sheer exhaustion one day over Christmas, visiting family, I gave in and put her in bed with me, for 2 long naps. I never felt so close to my daughter in my life, and we both slept great. But when we got home, I was back to putting her to sleep by herself in the basinet by her bed







. The nights were still awful. One day, we both got stinking colds. I was back at work by this time, and came home completely spent, looking at my daughter, who was just as sick as I was. I told my husband to take care of himself, I was taking DD to bed with me. That was 3.5 months ago, and she's been sleeping with us ever since







. Either in bed with us, or sidecarred in her crib. Now I read every AP book I can get. I threw away the BW book (thank God!!) I listen to my DD instead of what the Dr says, or the CIO books say (I never did let her CIO). I became an AP parent because I *FINALLY* listened to my DD. She was speaking to me loud and clear, and I finally heard her. Sorry this is so long. BTW, DD wakes up once, sometimes twice a night to nurse, and with her in bed with us, it is a joy, not a resented chore. I don't really want her to sleep thru the night, I need this time with her. Thank you for listening.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Well, the difference is that cosleeping has been shown NOT to be associated with overlying/suffocation, whereas crib sleeping has been shown to be associated with greater incidents of sleep apnea and of SIDS.
My understanding from my reading of the data is that the situation is not this black and white. There are indeed documented cases of overlying deaths in cosleeping situations, and no, not all of them involved drunk or drugged parents, sleeping on sofas, etc. I know of a case personally.

I'm not dismissing the potential for a connection b/t crib sleeping and SIDS, either, but my personal read of the information suggests that there are possible risks to both choices, and that the picture is far from clear at this time.

I don't mean to start an argument but I just don't feel our understanding is complete at this time, and to say there is NO association b/t cosleeping and overlying deaths seems misleading.


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

My experience was also similar to Raven's. My daughter co-slept with us until after she was 3 months old, at which point DH, DD, and I were all sleeping poorly due to her new moving skills, noises, etc... and DH and I waking her trying to get comfortable after being awakened by her. We both enjoyed co-sleeping with her, but it didn't seem to be the best long-term solution for us.

At the time I began the crib transition, she was typically waking 3x a night for nursings in our bed. (between the hours of about 9:00pm and 9:00am) When I started putting her down in the crib, she woke up the same 3x a night for quite a long time. When she would wake, I would go in, get her out of the crib immediately, nurse her as long as she wanted (often until she started falling asleep--usually 7-15 minutes) and put her back. She would go immediately back to sleep. Later, as she got older, she would wake only twice, and then around 7 or 8 months, she began to wake only once in the early mornings (sleeping from about 7:00 pm to about 7:00 am with an awakening around 3 or 4:00 am). Recently, around 11 months, she gave up that early morning nursing and now wakes for the day around 6:00 am.

This is what has worked for us, and I feel that DD's needs have been met. It is possible to have securely attached children that sleep long stretches that are in a crib. I assume that we will try to enact a similar plan for our future children, if possible.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I think there are many answers to your questions.

Babies have different temperaments. Maybe responsive parents (cosleeping etc.) become that way because of more "high need" babies who demand it, while maybe more easygoing babies put up with conventional parenting.

Parents have different temperaments too. Some seem proud to be different (LLL, AP) while others seem very uncomfortable breaking away from the norms of the larger culture. For some people it's very difficult to break away from the way they were parented:

*It is often hard for today's parents, who may have been deprived of adequate cuddling and emotional support from their own parents when they were babies, to give that support and physical comfort to their own children. They may feel uncomfortable holding their baby or dealing with the emotional requirements of a child.* Dr. Paul Fleiss, _Sweet Dreams_

More about culture: I highly recommend the book Our Babies, Ourselves by Small. HIGHLY! And this long article:
http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/culturalarticle.html

Part of it is feeding. Cow's milk does stay longer in a child's belly so they do not wake up as often....some babies that is, not all. But that doesn't mean it is best...it's not. Breastfeeding is.

Part of it is sleep training, letting baby cry it out. (Forcing a newborn child into a crib instead of gently coaxing an older baby, etc.). I believe that many babies will give up if their parents send them the message that they simply will not come at night. But at what cost to the child's well being? I think many babies will wake at night and sadly realize that no one is coming so there is no point in crying, unless they are so thirsty or ill or lonely that night ,that they can't help crying. Again, different temperaments.

As for doctors, when they talk about infant sleep or breastfeeding, I have a feeling that they are regurgitating stuff from old out of date books that have been handed down as fact rather than keeping up on the most recent research about sleep, attachment, breastfeeding etc. They also can have cultural bias. One of the things that sold me on attachment parenting, LLL etc. (besides it speaking to and healing my heart) is that science backs it up!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleet76*
At the time I began the crib transition, she was typically waking 3x a night for nursings in our bed. (between the hours of about 9:00pm and 9:00am) When I started putting her down in the crib, she woke up the same 3x a night for quite a long time. When she would wake, I would go in, get her out of the crib immediately, nurse her as long as she wanted (often until she started falling asleep--usually 7-15 minutes) and put her back.

I'm glad this worked for you. But it sounds like you made yourself twice as much work! You went from being woken up in bed 3x per night, only having to nurse her by rolling over and then falling back asleep without even leaving the warmth of the sheets...to having to drag yourself out of bed, go to her, pick her up, sit down and nurse, blah blah blah...

I guess I'm just too lazy for that!!









Had you continued to cosleep until she was 7 or 8 months, mabye she would have naturally gone down to her once or twice anyways, with alot less work for you! (as you can see, I like to boil things down to how much work I have to do, lol).

Quote:

There are indeed documented cases of overlying deaths in cosleeping situations, and no, not all of them involved drunk or drugged parents, sleeping on sofas, etc. I know of a case personally.
Such cases are exceedingly rare. It is very difficult to distinguish overlaying from SIDS, and in the past little effort has been made to do so during forensic investigations. Most overlaying reports are anecdotal at best, and misdiagnosed at worst. IMO, the chances of such a thing happening is so slim as to be hardly worth considering (all cosleeping safety precautions in place, of course).

The fact is, a child's risk of SIDS is almost doubled by being in a crib (ref: Mothering Magazine's Cosleeping Issue). Around 5,000 babies die of SIDS each year. This far, far outweighs the chances of a cosleeping baby being smothered by an aware, non-drugged or drunk mother.

James McKenna has shown conclusively that babies who sleep in cribs have 3 times as many episodes of sleep apnea as babies who cosleep. Futhermore, the physiology of sleep is vastly different in the two situations. I trust the situation that babies have spent hundreds of thousands of years adapting to: that of cosleeping. Human babies are so neurologically immature compared to any other primate, that it is amazing so many of them do survive when put in isolated sleep environments.

Quote:

It is possible to have securely attached children that sleep long stretches that are in a crib.
I never meant to suggest that it's impossible. Just that it doesn't represent the norm, IMHO.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I'm not dismissing the potential for a connection b/t crib sleeping and SIDS, either, but my personal read of the information suggests that there are possible risks to both choices, and that the picture is far from clear at this time. I don't mean to start an argument but I just don't feel our understanding is complete at this time, and to say there is NO association b/t cosleeping and overlying deaths seems misleading.


IMO co-sleeping has much, much less risks than crib-sleeping. I know it works for some families, and I think that's great for you, but in my case (I coslept with dd for 3 years, and now cosleeping with my 4 month old) it's practically impossible to smother your child when co-sleeping. This is IMO the way it was intended to be, before when there were no cribs, they didn't exist, when there was no such thing as a "separate room for baby".
People cosleep all the time in other parts of the world, in fact, the United States has one of the lowest co-sleeping stats yet, one of the highest infant death rates... so I feel much better and much more confident about cosleeping. There are always accidents, but there are accidents in everything. We don't know if that one cosleeping mom that smothered her child took medication before putting baby next to her, was so sleep deprived because she didn't have enough support around her to help with baby, so her body didn't respond to baby's cues when sleeping.
I could go on forever but there are always possibilities and risks but IMHO the risks associated with cosleeping are much, much lower.

Just my opinion...


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

```
It's strange because people always ask me if my baby sleeps through the night, I say yes, because he does. But we co-sleep, I wake a couple times (everytime) when he moves, he does nurse -sometimes- at night, I just don't think of this as a problem. I am happy, I don't feel sleep deprived. So this is my definition of "sleeping through the night". maybe it's not the same definition as a babycenter mom
```
There I go, agreeing with you again, Loving-my-babies. Same thing here., ds whimpers, settles in a flash, boom, we're both back to sleep.

Regarding CIO and not even hearing their babies cry.. SAD, SAD, SAD


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Aaargh! It was supposed to be a quote! Oh well..


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## geogirl (Mar 2, 2002)

T

Sagira What did you do? That is one cool quote! :LOL

Rebecca


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

just today I was involved in a "debate" about co-sleeping, crib sleeping and SIDS in this other mainstream forum. I admit I have a hard time understanding CIO moms and FF by choice moms, but the one thing I honestly cannot tolerate is people that opinionate without facts, that just go ahead and say whatever they feel like saying, disguising it as a "fact" when really, it's not. It drives me *bananas* to say the least, I told this particular person that said "co-sleeping is dangerous, nobody does it in the world and all studies show you will smother him" that it's ok to disagree, but some people are just so ignorant that don't even bother looking up the facts.
oh... and this other mom said "don't cosleep your baby will be spoiled"
you ladies have known me for a while... I am not a calm person when I hear something like that... I mean PLEASE... the one thing I like about mothering, is that mothers here are much more educated, we know what we are talking about, we don't go with the flow, we do what we feel is best, who cares about the rest of the world (well, the rest of the world is on our side anyway, most of the world does NFL and AP) but people that say such things... urggg, what makes my head boil, is mostly the fact that first time moms may be seeing those posts and believing these uneducated moms that make up these lies... and because of it some innocent baby may end up paying...


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

Piglet,

I totally agree that co-sleeping longer would have been easier in some ways. I loved co-sleeping while we did it, and I am in no way against co-sleeping or suggesting that others do what we did. I do think that that we did was best for all of us, though. Here's why:

All three of us are extremely light sleepers. When Nora would wake, I'd also be wide awake, and so would DH. My DH is a medical resident, and already sleep-deprived, so his sleep is very important--not that sleep isn't important to all of us, but he is already on the short end of the stick in that department. All of us being awakened by his pager and a baby was getting to be a bit much.

We also didn't feel that very long-term co-sleeping was what we wanted to set up. Again, I feel that is great for many people, and nothing wrong with it, but not for us. (see previous sleep reason above







) Another reason is that with him being gone so much, we really needed that little bit of alone couple time for ourselves for the health of our relationship. I am sure that we could have worked through this time issue in a different way if we had both wanted to continue to co-sleep, but this seemed the best option for us. Plus, I am a SAHM with my first child, so I had lots of time to nurse, snuggle, and catch naps if necessary...


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## librarymom (May 25, 2004)

Very interesting replies. Cool.

My .02: a lot of parents lie. They say their kids sleep through the night and they don't. Or they consider a 4 hour stretch through. And you are thinking 8 or 10 hours and wondering how. Different definitions. A lot of parents also lie about cosleeping. I have been at this parenting thing for 11 years and cannot tell you how many people I have come across who don't cosleep...except they do. KWIM?? For some people, it's a dirty little secret. Here at MDC, people are open and honest and seeking info, help, comraderie and support.

If you decide you are looking for that kind of help, this is the place. I suggest taking BabyCenter sleep talk with a grain of salt. I think growing an adult is the accomplishment, not sleeping through the night.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Well, both of mine cosleep and sleep through the night, always have! Really, they do, not every single night, but it is very rare that either of them wakes up before daylight. DD1 started sleeping 7hrs at night at around five weeks, when doc and LC and everyone told me I had to wake her up to nurse because of weight issues and feeding problems. DD2 started sleeping at least that much within her very first week of life, except I didn't bother trying to wake her up.
I am a very light sleeper, I wake up if baby so much as moves a toe. It isn't like I'm just sleeping through my baby's awake stages or anything.

honestly, I don't think I've done something right, I don't have some secret that nobody else knows. It's just the way my kids are. I have never made either of them CIO, not ever! Both of them cluster-feed right before bedtime, so that might be a big factor, I dunno.
My first is a very high-maintenance, spirited child, my second is the total opposite, the calmest, most zen-like child you'd ever want to meet. So I'm not sure it's temperament either.

I totally agree that my first child determined my parenting style - I never even heard of AP before she was born, and never had any intention of nursing so long or cosleeping or any of the other things I do.
But as soon as they finally brought my baby to me in that wretched hospital, she slept in the bed with me, to some of the nurses' horror!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I should have figured I'd end up a cosleeping mama...

I used to *always* get in trouble for letting the dog up on my bed. If I had my way, she'd have slept with me every night, but mother thought that was gross.

When I got my own dog when I lived on my own, she slept with me, as does my cat. I couldn't imagine banishing them to the floor, and I love snuggling with my pets.

Why would I be any different with my baby?


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## carrietorgc (Sep 16, 2003)

I think it depends on each baby. My dd started sleeping in 6-8 hr stretches at 8 wks when we started swaddling her







we do a combo of crib/co sleeping that works for us.

She is 12 mo now and goes down around 7:30 in her crib (i nurse/rock her to sleep), wakes once or twice, normally only hungry once, the other time just needs a back rub. some nights she is content in her crib, others she isn't and sleeps with us







Never done CIO and never will.

she was waking more, but i made a conscious effort to resettle her in her crib using the suggestions from the no cry sleep solution and it made a difference.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Those babies *are* waking up, or at least semi waking up and rolling over or whatever. They just are forced to self-soothe earlier on and so they don't need parents to help them back to sleep. Many cosleeping babies will do the same thing--rouse a little, roll next to mom, take a boob or not, and go back to sleep. If you are the easy waking type, you'll notice this. (Mine finally does this too somewhat, instead of needing to be carried around all night, thanks be to goddesses)

I just can't imagine sleeping with a baby monitor in my room. I'd never be able to sleep--I'd just be sitting up every 5 minutes and going "did you hear him??" to my DH, then running in to check.

I've said this before but I do believe that some babies have real sleep problems/disorders, and you can tell this by their waking behavior, not how they sleep. Mine did, and became happier once he was sleeping longer stretches (longer than 20 minutes, that is...long story involving surgeries and major high needs)


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sleepymama*
Mine did, and became happier once he was sleeping longer stretches (longer than 20 minutes, that is...long story involving surgeries and major high needs)

I would love to hear your story if have time to share


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Certainly. Warning--this is long!!!

DS had a severe congenital heart defect called tetralogy of fallot which was dx hours after birth, spent 2.5 weeks in NICU, had one surgery, came home at about 3 weeks old. About a week after he came home he decided he would not be put down, would not sleep in the cosleeper, would only sleep on our chests (or perhaps next to me in bed). He had a heart shunt that could close if he got dehydrated, so we had to wake him up to eat at least every three hours (combo of BF and formula, my milk supply was minimal). I think he might have started sleeping longer stretches around 2-3 months but we had to keep waking him up. Then he had another surgery at 3 months, an emergency, and it was rough. He was in the hospital for a week, and you know they poke them and take blood pressure every 20 minutes so that added to the trauma of surgery just messed him up. I held him most of the time he was in recovery, including all night long in the little chair they gave me next to his bed b/c he just screamed if I put him in the crib. The stupid nurse kept telling me to put him down because he "needed his rest" but he wasn't exactly "resting" when I did put him down since he had never slept in a crib!

When we got home he wouldn't sleep for more than 20 minutes at a time, even during the day. He'd sleep for 20 minutes, be awake and cranky for 20 minutes, then I'd spend the next hour trying to get him back to sleep. He woke up screaming (I held him almost 24 hours a day during his first 6 months or so) and sometimes had night terrors (where he didn't really wake up but got rigid and screamed for half an hour). He woke up regularly every half hour or so for months. Until he was about 6 or 7 months old he would just latch on and go back to sleep. But after that he needed to be carried around to get back to sleep. It was killing me. I went back to work part time when he was about 9 months and daycare was horrible for him, he wouldn't be put down and wouldn't sleep there. So I quit my job at about 11 months. After he learned to sit up around 6 months the separation anxiety got a little better, I could sit with him on the floor while he played for a few minutes, and then when he crawled it got even better, he would play in the same room for a few minutes. But naps were awful--he took 3-4 20-30 minute naps a day, and nothing I did to extend them worked. Sometimes he would sleep a whole hour, and he was so much happier on those days. He was so cranky and miserable all the time, and I had no idea how much this was due to his sleep.

When he was 11 months old we changed some things. I was dying, I screamed at him all the time, I ran red lights in the car. DH had been sleeping on the spare futon most nights, and taking DS in the chair on the nights when I just couldn't do any more. So we put our spare queen sized futon on the floor in DS's room and started taking turns sleeping with him there. My milk had pretty much dried up by this point (another long story) so the partial night weaning wasn't a big deal. It was tough for DH to get DS to sleep with him lying down, as he wanted to be held. It took several weeks I think of walking around then lying down, sleeping on DH's arm, etc. But it was magnificent. I got a full night's sleep every other night. DS still woke up just as often with his dad but we were more capable of dealing with him.

After he turned 1 a lot of things changed. He started eating solid food finally. He got a little more mellow, more able to handle things. And he started sleeping better. I think it was the partial night weaning, maturity, and, finally, I stopped nursing him to sleep on the nights I put him to bed. I did this cold turkey--but we had developed a bedtime routine before this. We moved his bedtime from 8:00 to 6:30 (slowly). We realized that he spent the time between dinner and bedtime getting completely maniacal and what was the point of that? It was winter, and the sun set early, so this wasn't as big of a change as I thought it might be. We had dinner, bath, story, tooth brushing, then into his room with a bottle. Pitch black room, I mean, so dark you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. I would hold him on my lap while he had his bottle (formula until 14 months, then milk) and then we would lie down together. For the first couple weeks, he would cry when I wouldn't let him nurse. I would hold him, and carry him around. Then lie down again. After a while, he would just fuss a little like he was annoyed with me and then he'd roll around for a while, crawl around the bed, babble nonstop, bang on the dresser, open and close the closet door, you get the idea. After about half an hour he'd come and lie beside me and get quiet, and finally just go to sleep.

He started sleeping longer stretches after we did this. He'd sleep 2 hours, then 3, and now he usually goes 4-5 unless he's having a bad night. Also, he will sleep alone for a couple hours after he goes to bed. Heaven!!! DH and I hadn't had 5 minutes alone since he came home from the hospital.

Anyway, I have no idea if something we did really helped him, or he just needed time to mature, but I think it was a combination of both. I think he would have been super high needs anyway, but his medical traumas just added extra to it and made it unbearable. BTW he's almost 18 months now, getting more independent and is generally happy, if intense and full of energy







He usually takes one 2-3 hour nap per day now, half in his bed and half on my chest in the sling. I never would have thought it possible, after a year of 20 minute naps!!

I have written a lot about DS's surgeries etc. on his website if anyone is interested http://schnoogly.com/pages/iainspage.htm


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## normajean (Oct 21, 2003)

I haven't read all the replies, so I hope I'm not duplicating what others have said.

I do not "sleep through the night" myself! A normal person doesn't, we go through various cycles of sleep/waking throughout the night, even if we aren't conscious of it. Every once in a while, I happen to be awake in the night right when DH is, and we have a mini-conversation before going back to sleep.

Babies are no different.

We did not cosleep when my DS was a baby, and he was "sleeping through" at 6 weeks old. Meaning I would put him down, he would play in his crib for 20 minutes or so, and fall asleep on his own. He would sleep for about 7 hours and then wake up hungry. During the day, he would eat every 2 hours, so he made up for the 7 hour stretch. However, I doubt he was sleeping the entire time. One time DH had to get something out of DS's closet very early in the am and found the baby laying there playing with his toes quietly. Greeted dad with a smile, didn't cry when daddy left the room, just kept playing. (We have never used CIO, even before I heard about AP I have always thought it was mean.)

This whole event was a couple hours before I woke up at the time DS was used to a feeding. I doubt he was awake the whole time.

I have always had a very easy going baby...many other babies would cry out of lonliness or boredom as soon as they start to stir, so I could say my son was sleeping through--meaning my sleep wasn't interrupted--when another parent might have to go to get baby after every lapse in his sleep cycle.

My mom considers "sleeping through the night" being 5 hours at a stretch. If thatst the case my son was "sleeping through" at birth. I never considered it that, because if I'm only getting 5 hour stretch of rest I am ill. 7-8 hours is what I consider sleeping through. I only hope I am so lucky with the next baby!


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Sleepymama,
Thanks so much for your reply. Wow you guys have been through a lot. I checked out your pics and what a sweetie he is. I'm looking forward to going back to your site and reading some more. Take care.


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## ILuvMyBaby (Feb 24, 2004)

I guess I am one of the lucky ones...and I don't CIO







Parker is awesome and started sleeping through the night at 4 months. Just one night...he did it







If he does wake up at night, he does not cry or move around, just goes back to sleep. He sleeps from 5:30 pm to 6:30 am. Honestly, I think it is just because he likes to sleep...not any other reason.

I wish I could offer some advise...I do sleep with earplugs. I can still hear the baby, it is more for my hubby's snoring. I am one of those people who take an hour to fall asleep and if I wake up in the middle of the night, it takes me forever to go back to bed.


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## Squinkymom (Dec 16, 2003)

Interesting story:

I was in the lactation room at the quasi governmental organization where I work part time, when I struck up a conversation with a young woman from India who was also pumping. We got into a discussion about sleep deprivation, and I asked her, out of curiosity, if she coslept, as I know from all of my reading that it's the norm in so many other countries.

She said yes, (without the quasi-shame that so many of us here in the states feel when asked the same question). Then I started asking what she does when her son awakens during the night, and she said, "Well of course, I take care of him." So I asked how it would be perceived in India if she just...well...oh...let the baby cry for a little while. And she looked at me in horror! Her eyes got big and round, and she said that the elder women would criticize a mother for doing such a thing and would accuse her of not being able to handle her baby! So...delighted by such a response!...I attempted to describe to her the concept of CIO that is often used here, and she honestly could not believe it!!! She was having a real problem grasping the "philosophy" shall we say of the method. She hadn't heard of such a thing.

Oh gosh, it made me feel sooooooooo good to hear her question CIO and be appalled by it. I think she's still shaking her head!









So just remember in those times of exhaustion (and I live in an almost permanent state of exhaustion!) there are entire societies that believe in co-sleeping! We're not crazy...we're not crazy...we're not crazy...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

That story reminds me of a recent experience I had...

We have a Japanese doctor, young, here doing research with us. He and his wife are newly expecting. One day I was sitting in the computer room with him and another doctor doing research, who hails from India originally. They have a DD almost the same age as mine.

So my boss is in the room chatting us up, and I told him I was having a boy. He asked if we would need a crib, saying they have a spare one. I said no thanks. He kept offereing, and finally I said "well, DD has never ever slept in a crib and we don't plan on one for this baby either". So boss looks totally shocked, and made some joke about it (not mean, just typical of someone who thinks such a thing is way "out there"). Meanwhile, I'd just gotten back my cosleeping issue of Mothering from young Japanese guy, who said he loved it (they had it for weeks).

So I'm thinking "oh boy, Toshi is gonna hear our boss saying this and think I'm weird" and then Indian doc pipes up and says, SO matter-of-factly, "yeah, our DD has never slept in a crib either" then turns to Toshi and says "it's the biggest waste of money you'll ever spend. don't even bother!". So we started going back and forth with jokes about "really expensive laundry hampers" and never having to leave the bed to tend to baby at night, etc...

So my boss ended up feeling like the weird one. Indian doc just made is sound so normal, so "crib sleeping is such a silly idea"...anyways, it was a great moment!!


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## tuscany123 (Feb 15, 2004)

Wow, what great posts! I LOVE sleeping with my Baby, and I don't care who knows it!


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

Well, i'm on both sides here, so maybe i can put some sense of another perspective in. (and no, i totally don't feel like my toes have been stepped on, i yell at the computer when i go on the babycenter boards, so i won't go anymore!)









Ok, so i bf dd for only 5 weeks & we were both so miserable ( i couldn't eat ANYTHING) that we were crying all the time. even BF, she slept for 3-4 hr intervals. she has a lot of DH in her! when we switched to total ff, she continued the same pattern & gradually increased her stretches. we do not co-sleep- neither of us were comfortable with it- just a preference, no judging (or flaming, please







so she slept in her crib.

i heard EVERY noise she made & was out of bed making a bottle before i was even awake. but, by 11 weeks, she wasn't waking up, just moving around a bit, re-settling. (again, lots of dh in her- i'm up all the time!







. she's just a solid, sound sleeper. now, at 14 months, once in a while, she gets up at night. we always go to her, soothe her, rock her, etc. we NEVER tried CIO. felt too cruel. we did a mish-mosh of Dr. Sears, Baby Whisperer, friends, family, what felt right & good for us. we're a bit of a fly-by-the-seat faimily









anyway, i do think all babies are different. i also think that co-sleeping babies do wake more b/c it's nice to see mama (dada, ds, db, etc.) with them and they at least acknowledge that. i also think some babies are natural party timers up all night (my best friend has 3!!!









for the record, i'm making a conscious effort to stay off the babycenter boards b/c i really get aggravated at some of the way off base advice that's out there (especially speech & language wise, since that's what i do when i'm not at home!! but i won't














i wish more families figured out what was best for them and didn't worry so much about what "they" say!!!


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
maybe it's not the same definition as a babycenter mom (I belong to their march'04 board and I think it's safe to say 90% of women ff their babies) they also let their babies CIO, (women ask "when" they can start when their babes ARE 6 WEEKS OLD...) how awful.

In my opinion, and I am going to risk sounding mean and discriminatory, but people at MDC are much more educated and informed. This is why we don't EXPECT our kids to sleep through the night when they are so young. Because they were never supposed to. Most moms at babycenter (the ones that I met, anyway) had their kids, loved being pg, loved the baby showers, the gifts, baby stuff, but when baby was born, they got hom and went "ok baby, time to be independent and stop bothering me. I feel like getting my life back"

Ugh. That's been exactly my experience as well. I belong to the June '04 board and some are already doing CIO!!! Of course, this is the same board where I have been roasted for trying to educate women about pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding... blech, why do I bother sometimes?


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## mackinsiesmom (Apr 3, 2004)

I haven't read all the post either so if mine is repeative I am sorry.

I started out over at babycenter because that was the only site I knew about. I had a hard time at the hospital when my daughter was first born when the nurses kept telling me that I had to make my daughter mad inorder to get her to eat. To me that did not sound like it was a good thing to do. I believe that when she is hungry she will eat and I don't need to get her undressed, pinch her, etc to make her mad to eat.

My daughter was getting close to six months when I looked on the board for some advice. I didn't like hearing that you have to make the child messerable to make them sleep through the night. She was going to bed at 7 and waking up at around 3 to eat and then at 6 to see her daddy off to work. I love getting up with her in the middle of the night and I didn't think that I could just not cuddle her and give her water so she wouldn't want to wake up. To me that was too much to even think about.

While I was reading the post one stuck out. It was a mother who said that she thought about doing the same thing that everyone else suggested but then she thought that they were only going to wake up in the middle of the night for so long. Pretty soon they will be grown up enough to sleep though the night without waking up for you to comfort them. That post reasured me of what I felt was right. The night time feeding were our special time together where I could talk to her and hold her and love her.

To all who post at babycenter, please keep posting. It helped me so much to know that there was someone else who understood what I was going through. I wish I could find that post again and thank that mother who wrote it. You never know how much a post can change just one mothers life.


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## Slackermom (Jul 23, 2003)

I don't post on Babycentre, but I am (or was, until today, actually) the member of another mainstream board. I finally got fed up with the CIO philosophy, among other things, and just couldn't post there anymore. I understand what the pp said about needing to reach out to the one or two people who might not be so mainstream, but sometimes it's hard and tiring being the only voice of dissent.

Co-sleeping was also something I kept under my hat at that board. People there like to "sleep train" starting at 4 or 5 months. I personally have never slept all the way through the night. I don't expect my baby to. And because she's sleeping with us, none of us really fully wake up anyway. I'm much more rested now than I was when I was pregnant.

My biggest problem right now is that DD has moved to a side-car crib, and the cats have claimed her former space in the middle of the bed. More than once, I've caught myself on the verge of preparing to breastfeed the cat!








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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jellyfishy*
My biggest problem right now is that DD has moved to a side-car crib, and the cats have claimed her former space in the middle of the bed. More than once, I've caught myself on the verge of preparing to breastfeed the cat!









:
Lucky cat!







:


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I really enjoyed reading this thread and I am now up WAY past bed time. I am sitting here looking at my beautiful DD sleeping in the bouncy chair where she often stays until we go down for the night. I love co-sleeping and wouldn't change it for the world. Even the sleepy night feedings and the leaky diaper that soaked our mattress last night. I wonder how my boob gets out in the night







and love waking up to her cute little snurfiling for nursy noises.

DD wakes twice (usually) to nurse and is a velcro sleeper. Normally, she doesn't really wake up just to nurse quickly and drift back off. I tell people she sleeps through the night because, to me, this doesn't really count. Neither of us "wake up" and I am still under the covers!

I no longer post at babycenter because I got so fed up with all the CIO, FF mom's. My board seemed to have a lot of issues from the beginning. But, the PP about never knowing who you will effect is right, I discovered AP from a thread at babycenter. I was hooked right away and we haven't looked back. Maybe it's time to tip toe back and see what's going on with all those moms....

Happy sleeping to you all, how ever it comes!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery*
I no longer post at babycenter because I got so fed up with all the CIO, FF mom's.


same here... I am also too sensitive to hear stories of mothers that want to sleep train, CIO, ff'ing by choice, etc.. I feel so bad for the babies that it makes me upset IRL and it affects me, so I don't go there anymore.


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## bubbles (Jul 26, 2002)

I just skimmed the posts (so many!) so I will just add my brief 2cents. Dh and I decided early on that two things are happening : 1) parents lie, and 2) parents aren't really aware of their own children. A sad story that helped solidfy that comes from when I spent a few nights with a friend who had an 11 month old and I had a 9 month old. Ds woke up a lot (esp. being in a different place) and as I was up nursing I would always hear my friends little one crying upstairs. I waited and waited for her to do something. She never did. I actually fell asleep and woke again to hear him banging his crib against the wall. As soon as I went to get him he was happy. I just took him in with us. The next night, same thing! I asked my friend about it and she said "I never hear him." She had been telling me from very early on how he slept through the night. Well, in her huge house she could not hear him in his room even banging the crib on the wall! Ok. Long vent here, but it really made me think about what everyone else says in this competition to have the best sleeper, smartest, earliest weaner, tallest, earliest walker, etc.


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## nankilicious (Apr 6, 2004)

Our dd sleeps in a bassinet in our bedroom (the bassinet portion of a packnplay, so its quite roomy for her) and her nighttime varies so much. Sometimes she does sleep for 7-8 hours at a time. Sometimes she sleeps for 4 hours, wakes for about 2, then sleeps 5 more.

She rarely falls asleep before 10, but usually before 1 am. When/if she wakes, I nurse her, change her (if she falls back asleep nursing which has happened a few times now) and then we play quietly until she acts tired and then I either walk with her until she falls back to sleep, or try nursing her back to sleep.
Does that make any sense at all?

We did the family bed for a few months, but it was not working for us, in many regards. Having her in the bass. in our room is perfect. In fact, I dont think she will be in her crib or in her own room for a long time, yet. (still working on DH about this)

I know I am lucky because she doesnt wake every few hours all night long, but if she did, I would be getting up with her. Like when she is in a growth spurt...


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## bubbles (Jul 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nankilicious*
Our dd sleeps in a bassinet in our bedroom (the bassinet portion of a packnplay, so its quite roomy for her) and her nighttime varies so much. Sometimes she does sleep for 7-8 hours at a time. Sometimes she sleeps for 4 hours, wakes for about 2, then sleeps 5 more.

She rarely falls asleep before 10, but usually before 1 am. When/if she wakes, I nurse her, change her (if she falls back asleep nursing which has happened a few times now) and then we play quietly until she acts tired and then I either walk with her until she falls back to sleep, or try nursing her back to sleep.
Does that make any sense at all?

We did the family bed for a few months, but it was not working for us, in many regards. Having her in the bass. in our room is perfect. In fact, I dont think she will be in her crib or in her own room for a long time, yet. (still working on DH about this)

I know I am lucky because she doesnt wake every few hours all night long, but if she did, I would be getting up with her. Like when she is in a growth spurt...

That makes complete sense and sounds just like how it went with my ds! As I read that I felt like I could have been writing it. He is now 3 and sleeps in a twin bed next to ours. He actually did move to a crib in his own room for awhile and was quite happy. (We never forced it, but he would practially dive into it and go right to sleep.) When he stopped wanting to do that he moved into our room. We will just see how it goes from here.


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