# This is NOT the United States of Caucasian-Christian-Heterosexual America.



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Hey, I wish someone would make this awesome quote by pugmadmama into a bumpersticker.

Quote:

This is NOT the United States of Caucasian-Christian-Heterosexual America.
anyone else?


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Thank you!!!
















I'm so glad you like what I said. I certainly meant it from the heart.


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

There is no doubt, Pugmadmama is brilliant and articulate!

It runs in our family.









(Pug is my sister IRL) :LOL :LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

lol, well as the mommy of two pugs myself I can't help but







a fellow pug lover.

pugmadmama my hero!

*wonder if she is a writer IRL?*


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*pugmadmama my hero!

*wonder if she is a writer IRL?**
Arduinna, You are totally making my day! Did my sister put you up to this?









I used to put out a zine and I recently submitted an essay for a book (it got rejected. bummer.) I do love to write, especially about things I'm passionate about. One of my secret dream jobs is to have an editorial column!

I think you should make a bumper sticker that says "PHD in Deviancy". Very funny! :LOL


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I made it my sig at your suggestion. That is the limit of my powers!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Oh yeah, I think you'd be great at editorials.

hey, maybe I should offer a course in deviancy?? you know how much we all like to recruit :LOL


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

You could send it in to Northern Sun. They do awesome shirts and bumperstickers. This would be good for both IMO.









http://www.northernsun.com


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, but it IS!!!

And if you don't like it.................

LEAVE!

:LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'd be delighted to live in a place where there were no homophobes. point me in the right direction.........


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I'm putting it in my sig line too! Thanks pug!


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

hmmm, me thinks that sadly it is, but I am all for the power of suggestion in the form of a bumper sticker


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## gardeningmom (Mar 4, 2004)

This whole thread is completely rude. If someone else bashed any other group of our society everyone on this thread would be upset. You should respect others if you expect respect back. This type of attitude does nothing to bridge the gap between people.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Hey, I wish someone would make this awesome quote by pugmadmama into a bumpersticker.
*
You mean like this?

http://devrock.5u.com/images/usa.jpg

Just go to www.makestickers.com


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*This whole thread is completely rude. If someone else bashed any other group of our society everyone on this thread would be upset. You should respect others if you expect respect back. This type of attitude does nothing to bridge the gap between people.*
Huh?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Are you suggesting that someone in this thread has "bashed" or disrespected caucasion Christian heterosexuals?


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

I would buy that bumper sticker or t shirt!!!!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm confused. Bridging the gap would mean accepting all people and not legislating morality. That's the point the bumper sticker is making, IMO







:


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## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

I would buy it too!







I love it.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

candiland: I was confused too, but then I did a search for her other posts. It's all becoming clear now.

gardeningmom: Look, all we're saying is that this country is for everyone: heterosexuals, homosexuals, white people, black people, Christians, pagans, and everyone else. All we're saying is that this country isn't JUST for white heterosexual Christians. If you disagree with that statement, then YOU are the one who is bashing and disrespecting non-whites, non-Christians, and/or non-heterosexuals. WE are in no way, shape or form bashing or disrespecting whites, Christians, or heterosexuals. If we're bashing or disrespecting anyone, it's only homophobes and bigots. I have no problem bashing or desrespecting them.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I suspect there might be a few caucasian-christian-heterosexuals hanging out on these boards who think it's pretty darn funny. :LOL I might only be two out of three, but it's hilarious....


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Hey I'd buy it too! And I am caucasian-christian-okay not quite hetrosexual but hey... only prob is I dont live in America... sadly tho its not just an Amberican problem, its a global one.


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

Well, I'm half caucasian-half mexican-half all sorts of other things, totally heterosexual, although I'd love to be a gay man! and I used to consider myself christian (many many moons ago) and now I consider myself a multi-spiritual human being (mshb)


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Since we're sharing, I'm a caucasion, heterosexual, non-Christian American.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I actually am caucasian, heterosexual and Christian. But I know this country doens't exist soley for me and those like me. It is _our_ country... and I am using an all inclusive we there!


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I'd put that bumper sticker on MY car if my dh wasn't so anal about keeping the cars pristine!









I don't see how anyone here is bashing Caucasians, heterosexuals, or Christians. It's just people expressing their frustration with discrimination. If an African-American friend said to me, "This is not the United Staes of White America!" I'd wholeheartedly agree, not take offense.

Oh, and it isn't discrimination that bugs me (what I mean is it rarely happens to me), because other than being female, the other things that make me a "minority" are not apparent to others - for the record, I'm a Caucasian, bisexual, non-practicing Jew - it's the ASSUMPTIONS. The people who call my daughter a "Christmas baby" because of her Dec. 25th birthday, the people who ask me what I think of "those gays who want to get married," that sort of stuff. It doesn't make me mad at the people who do it, it's just ignorance on their part. But it is irritating anyway.

People just assume you are part of the "majority" unless you tell them otherwise. It just gets so damn tiresome.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm a white, non-Christian, heterosexual Canadian.

And I live here in the US, too.


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## plum (Mar 7, 2003)

i like that sticker! i like that site, too.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

People just assume you are part of the "majority" unless you tell them otherwise. It just gets so damn tiresome.
boy is that the truth









from the pagan, bisexual white chick...


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## Shoshoni (Mar 10, 2004)

Nevermind. I am staying OUT of activism


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

As a mostly hetero, non-Christian, white Euro-mutt....:LOL

DH would hesitate to put such a bumpersticker on his car because he knows there are just sooooo many "tolerant" white Christian heterosexuals out there.....we can't afford to have the car being vandalized.

I'd think about it...sucks that fear can affect our personal expression doesn't it?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I know I don't feel safe expressing myself on my car. As much as I'd love to have this as a bumpersticker. Hate crimes still happen sadly.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

As a white christian heterosexual I fnd this statement to be absolutely hilarious and true.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Pagan-Jewish-UU, not-quite-hetero white chick here!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

*This is NOT the United States of Caucasian-Christian-Heterosexual America.*

yes it is.








:


















that's the part that sux about it.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I sort of think it's funny but I'm not one to become easily offended.

I can see why someone would be offended. Think if you said, "This is not the United States of Pagan, Black, Gay America."

Sort of offensive?

But like I said I think it's sort of witty and funny, I laughed the first time I read it.

DB


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

It's not even the same thing at all. The reason why is that white Christian heterosexual America does think that they have the right to to tell everyone else what to do. They see themselves as the default correct way to be and as the majority are loathe to give up their power.

The rest of us are asking for the equal rights that we deserve.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*\
The reason why is that white Christian heterosexual America does think that they have the right to to tell everyone else what to do. They see themselves as the default correct way to be and as the majority are loathe to give up their power.
*
I fall into those categories, but I don't think that.







It's rampant, but not universal. I also don't find this thread offensive in the least. Whiteness and Christianity and heterosexuality are not the definition of normal, and being something other than one of those is not an abnormality.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

This is NOT the United States of Caucasian-Christian-Heterosexual America.

You say the above is not offensive.
Is this offensive?

This is NOT the United States of Black-Tree Worshipping-Homosexual America.

If I had posted the second, I would have been set on fire for being offensive. I am amazed that Mothering has let this go on so long. With the militant erasing of posts and locking of threads, I am surprised this one has lasted so long. Of course, the usual erasing and locking is biased, so I shouldn't be surprised at all.

So long. I imagine this post will get me banned for speaking out against "THE MOTHER"


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Once again, some people here simply do not understand the concept of privilege.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

do you mean the privilege that some have to speak their minds but others do not?

Or is this another privilege of which I am unaware?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Sorry, not swallowing your bait.
Others here, thankfully, know exactly what I mean.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Not bait. I am truly interested to know what you meant by that comment.

Or am I not part of the inner circle?

Seriously, what is this elusive privilege?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

When you keep making snarky comments about inner circles and some people not being allowed to speak their minds, and blasting the way these boards are run, it is very hard to see your question as sincere.

So, if you are really interested, do a search on privilege and racism. These things have been discussed a lot here.

Though, I somehow doubt you will be open to the concept anyway.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

:LURK


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

here is some suggeswted readin material on privilege

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=86003

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=86469

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...hreadid=105329


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks!
Off to read!
Hayes


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*This is NOT the United States of Caucasian-Christian-Heterosexual America.

You say the above is not offensive.
Is this offensive?

This is NOT the United States of Black-Tree Worshipping-Homosexual America...*
Do you really not see the difference? How the people named in the first one are in the majority in this country (both in term of population and, more importantly, power)?

I wrote that line in response to an email someone put up about how affirmative action, gay/lesbian rights and non-Christians were ruining this country. My line was meant to be a gentle, but firm, reminder that people of color, gays and lesbians, and non-Christians are Americans too.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Did a quick scan of the threads posted, thanks again Arduinna.

I understand that white, heterosexual individuals in this country to have privilege.

However, I do not think that gives anyone the right to condemn anyone else anymore than it gives an African American tree hugging lesbian the right to condemn me.

I simply meant that if I had turned that statement around to say things about people in the minority then I would have been flamed and banned from the site.

If you are going to preach tolerance, then you have to tolerate all of us. You can't single out those who disagree with you.

Also, sorry about the snarky comments. They were unwarranted on this thread. If I have a beef with MDC or its members, then I should post that in a seperate place.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Here's a link to Peggy McIntosh's poweful essay, 
*White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack*. If you haven't read it, it's well worth reading.

Inspired by that, B. Deutsch wrote, *
The Male Privledge Checklist ,
An Unabashed Imitation of an Article by Peggy McIntosh*


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

I simply meant that if I had turned that statement around to say things about people in the minority then I would have been flamed and banned from the site.
sadly that isn't true that anyone would be banned for posting bigotry. Recent rule changes have allowed for gay bashing under the guise of "opinion" at MDC.

Although as the OP I would request that a different thread be started for gay bashing.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

FYI, Here is the essay/mindset I wrote my line in response too.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*...However, I do not think that gives anyone the right to condemn anyone else anymore than it gives an African American tree hugging lesbian the right to condemn me.

I simply meant that if I had turned that statement around to say things about people in the minority then I would have been flamed and banned from the site...*
Who is condemning anyone??? Reminding the people in power that they are not the only Americans is hardly condemnation.

And when it comes to such extreme power imbalances, you can't just "turned that statement around". For that to work, people of color, enviormentalists and lesbians would have to have the _same amount of power_ in this country that caucasian, heterosexual, Christians have now.

By the way, I am two of the three things in my own list. I am aware that I hold a privledged position in this country. That doesn't mean I hate or condemn myself, it simply means that I am aware that the power balance is skewed primarily in my favor. But just because I benefit from something doesn't mean it's a good thing or that I should be defending it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*...If you are going to preach tolerance, then you have to tolerate all of us. You can't single out those who disagree with you...*
This line I wrote is preaching tolerance. I can't say it anymore clearly than that.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*This is NOT the United States of Black-Tree Worshipping-Homosexual America.

If I had posted the second, I would have been set on fire for being offensive.

So long. I imagine this post will get me banned for speaking out against "THE MOTHER"*
So... you haven't been flamed or banned. How long will it take you to admit you were wrong?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

If black, gay pagans were in the majority and had all the power, and laws were passed banning straight marriage, and the pagan holidays were all national holidays and none of the Christian ones were, and whites were pulled over by the police just for being white, then there would be nothing wrong with a bumper sticker that said this is not the U.S. of black gay pagan America.

The bumper sticker does not condemn ANYONE. It simply asserts that this country is for EVERYONE, including those who are not the majority race, or the majority religion, or the majority sexual orientation.

People getting offended by the sticker are completely missing the point of it. It's not saying that this country isn't for whites or heterosexuals or Christians. All it's saying is that this country isn't JUST for those people, to the exclusion of non-caucasions, non-Christians, and non-heterosexuals. WHAT IS OFFENSIVE ABOUT THAT??


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by SBFmommy_
*People getting offended by the sticker are completely missing the point of it. It's not saying that this country isn't for whites or heterosexuals or Christians. All it's saying is that this country isn't JUST for those people, to the exclusion of non-caucasions, non-Christians, and non-heterosexuals. WHAT IS OFFENSIVE ABOUT THAT??*
Amen Amen Amen sistah!


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Pugmadmama, thank you for those two lists of privileges to which you posted links above. And I somehow missed the "heterosexual privilege" thread started by Greaseball.

I would love for everyone I know to read these.

I'm really proud to be a member here.


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

Well said, SBFmommy.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I can't quite figure out whether to agree or disagree with you (or you)

See, I fit into the dread category and I don't harbor those narrow minded beliefs. To suggest otherwise is hurtful.

I have not lived a life of privledge, I have been in poverty most of my life.

But, on the other hand, I *know* blacks are pulled over more often than whites, I've seen this myself and think, "why is it so often a black man being pulled over for no reason?" so I understand the frustration blacks endure and I will stand by you and fight against that.

I am for gay marriage primarily because of the concept of equal justice under the law. Whether I agree or disagree with gay-ness a gay person has the same *inherent* rights as anyone else. My *opinion* doesn't change that inherent right.

Whether you are majority or minority these rights are inherent and people of minority status need to know this and feel the security of the assurance that their rights are respected.

Debra Baker


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

I think it's important to think of privilege in a wider sense than just financial. You can be absolutely poverty-striken, but if you're white and heterosexual, you'll still have an easier time in the world. Being upper class is easier, but it's not the only definition of privelege.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

I have not lived a life of privledge
IMO all caucasians, Christians and heterosexuals do live a life of privledge.

for details as to why, see the links that were quoted.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, thank you Hayes for bringing some excitement to this thread, lol.

You will not be banned for saying what you did. It will not be edited. And, in fact, I don't even find it the least bit offensive.

I'm not actually sure why it would be considered offensive? Can you explain that to me?

You're right. This isn't the United States of [insert minority group here].

But somehow, that sentence doesn't carry much in the way of a double-meaning, whereas the original statement does.

Black, tree-worshipping, homosexuals are not trying to change the constitution to leave out those who don't feel the way they do. I realize not ALL white-Xian-heteros are either, but sadly there is a vocal majority who are. So the original statement contains humour, political commentary, and an inherent double-meaning all in one go. That's what differentiates it from your statement, which really has no meaning at all, except a literal one, which I don't think anybody can argue with.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Glad to livenm up the day.

I am really enjoying this in a lighthearted way and hope it stays that way.

A couple of things.

One poster asked when I was going to apologize, I am not sure what she meant. I apologized for my snarky comments. I am not sure what other apology is warranted here.

Second, though many of the holidays celebrated in the US are considered "christian" most of those are pagan holidays.

Christmas and Easter spring to mind. they were adaptations by the Catholic church to cover up pagan holidays around the same time. I do not celebrate christmas or easter as religious holidays, even though I am a Christian. My bible doesn't tell me that Jesus was born on December 25th or that he was resurrected on the random Sunday chosen by some lady who makes the calenders.

As for a large number of national holidays being christian, those are the two that spring to mind. Memorial Day, Labor Day, MartinLuther King Jr. Day, President's Day (although these guys were pretty much all white, hetero, christians) seem to be pretty equal opportunity holidays.

Also, I agree that Pug's sig line is thought provoking. I like it. I have the ability to see humor in things with which I disagree. I really like a recent bumper sticker I saw that said,"Sorry I missed church. I was busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian." Those I things I disagree with, but it is funny!

I suppose my point was that someone posting something that was similar to the original but with a minority slant on it, it would not be well received.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm not sure what pagan verses Chrisitan holidays have to do with this thread??







:

Anyway, there wasn't and isn't one universal pagan holiday cycle. There were and are many different pagan beliefs and religions. But they each had/have their own name (and festival cycles) or were simply called somthing similar to "our ways" by certain groups. What is currently considered to be "the pagan holiday cycle" is actually the one of modern Wicca which has been borrowed by generic pagans today. But it is not universal either, even if it is the most common in the west.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*...I suppose my point was that someone posting something that was similar to the original but with a minority slant on it, it would not be well received.*
It wouldn't be well received because it wouldn't mean the same thing! Are you really not seeing the inherent power differences between, say, heterosexuals and homosexuals _as a group_?

and since SBFmommy already answered this so well, I'll just repost her words...

Quote:

_Originally posted by SBFmommy_
*If black, gay pagans were in the majority and had all the power, and laws were passed banning straight marriage, and the pagan holidays were all national holidays and none of the Christian ones were, and whites were pulled over by the police just for being white, then there would be nothing wrong with a bumper sticker that said this is not the U.S. of black gay pagan America....*
By the way, holidays that have pagan origins don't invalidate this. They are celebrated because they are _now percieved to be Christian holidays._ Most people are not aware of the origins of Easter and Christmas, let alone prepared to consider making Imbolc or Lughnasadh national holidays.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*though many of the holidays celebrated in the US are considered "christian" most of those are pagan holidays.*
Despite its pagan origins, the Dec 25 holiday is called "Christmas" as is celebrated by most Christians. I celebrate the Solstices and the Equinoxes, and have never gotten a day off from school or work to do so. The same could be said of Jewish holidays, and other minority holidays.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*"Sorry I missed church. I was busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian." Those I things I disagree with, but it is funny!*
That bumper sticker is based on something a conservative Christian said (sorry, I forget which one... was it Pat Robertson?). "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*I suppose my point was that someone posting something that was similar to the original but with a minority slant on it, it would not be well received.*
A bumper sticker that said "this is not the U.S. of black gay pagan America" simply wouldn't make any sense, because this country is not in any danger of being perceived as a country which is only for black gay pagans.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I'm not sure what pagan verses Chrisitan holidays have to do with this thread??







:
*
Sorry, that's my fault, I brought it up. However, I was only using it as one example of the MANY ways Christians are given the preference in this country.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Pat Roberson is an idiot
and wrong
about a LOT of things
at least we can agree on that.


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Hayes_
*Pat Roberson is an idiot
and wrong
about a LOT of things
at least we can agree on that.*
Amen, amen amen Sistah!!!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by SBFmommy_
*Sorry, that's my fault, I brought it up. However, I was only using it as one example of the MANY ways Christians are given the preference in this country.*
Ha, l should have read more carefully and I probably would have made the connection.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

sadly that isn't true that anyone would be banned for posting bigotry. Recent rule changes have allowed for gay bashing under the guise of "opinion" at MDC
Actually this isn't entirely correct. People *have* been banned for posting bigotry.

Gay bashing will not be allowed. While this isssue is currently being allowed as a discussion topic the members are more than welcome to pm the mods should they see hurtful things being posted or have concerns regarding the discussion.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

People *have* been banned for posting bigotry.
didn't see anyone post saying they haven't








:


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

:

It is in the quote...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

no it's not in the quote. I specifically said that people WOULDN"T (read future tense) get banned because of the new rule change. Since now things that weren't allowed before are currently acceptable.

I never said that people Haven't (read past tense) ever been banned. Which is what you said.

they aren't the same thing.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Ah...I read it wrong, sorry my mistake.









We weren't allowing it until we heard from Peggy, which we said when we first stopped allowing the discussion.

She said she thought the discussion should be allowed as long as it stayed peaceful...

That isn't exactly what she said..I can hunt down the exact quote if you like.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

no biggie, just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding









and yes I know the ruling came from Peggy


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by abimommy_
*
That isn't exactly what she said..I can hunt down the exact quote if you like.*
Yes, please.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

yeah, thanks for asking Kama, becuase I guess that slipped on by me.

I'd love to read the quote too.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'd love a definition of "staying peaceful" while we are on the topic.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Now this is what Cynthia said about what Peggy said so it isn't exact.

Quote:

Opinion and respectful discussion but no active advocacy or attack of a person specifically

Quote:

And, it should not be allowed that anyone make specific personal comments of prejudice toward another.
I will check with Cynthia and see if she heard anything more.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

T
Everytime I see that sig line PhD in Deviancy I think "Boy, I bet that program has some interesting electives!"


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Kama :LOL

you know that I'm a liar and just put it for shock value


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Kama :LOL

you know that I'm a liar and just put it for shock value







*
Well now you've gone and ruined it. I was pondering how very valuable a sheepskin was when you had actually dated the sheep.


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## Mommy StormRaven (Jan 21, 2002)

Bisexual Pagan here









I'm ALMOST convinced that some (lets just call them narrowminded) peopel just might not be aware of how many more priviledges they have than same sex couples simply becuase they are allowed to legally marry....

For example - from the HRC (Human Rights Campaign) Website:

Quote:

Rights and Protections Denied Same-Sex Partners

Because same-sex couples are denied the right to marry, same-sex couples and their families are denied access to the more than 1,138 federal rights, protections and responsibilities automatically granted to married heterosexual couples. Among those are:

The right to make decisions on a partner's behalf in a medical emergency. Specifically, the states generally provide that spouses automatically assume this right in an emergency. If an individual is unmarried, the legal "next of kin" automatically assumes this right. This means, for example, that a gay man with a life partner of many years may be forced to accept the financial and medical decisions of a sibling or parent with whom he may have a distant or even hostile relationship.

The right to take up to 12 weeks of leave from work to care for a seriously ill partner or parent of a partner. The Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 permits individuals to take such leave to care for ill spouses, children and parents but not a partner or a partner's parents.

The right to petition for same-sex partners to immigrate.

The right to assume parenting rights and responsibilities when children are brought into a family through birth, adoption, surrogacy or other means. For example, in most states, there is no law providing a noncustodial, nonbiological or nonadoptive parent's right to visit a child - or responsibility to provide financial support for that child - in the event of a breakup.

The right to share equitably all jointly held property and debt in the event of a breakup, since there are no laws that cover the dissolution of domestic partnerships.

Family-related Social security benefits, income and estate tax benefits, disability benefits, family-related military and veterans benefits and other important benefits.

The right to inherit property from a partner in the absence of a will.

The right to purchase continued health coverage for a domestic partner after the loss of a job.

Such inequities impose added costs on these families, such as increased health insurance premiums, higher tax burdens and the absence of pension benefits or Social Security benefits in the event of a partner's death.

Some same-sex and transgender families consult attorneys to draw up legal documents such as powers of attorney, co-parenting agreements and wills, that will at least permit them to declare who they wish to make health care and financial decisions for them if they become incapacitated; how they wish to share parenting responsibilities or, in the event of a breakup, custody of a child; and what they want to happen to their property when they die. However, these are not a substitute for legal protection under law and cannot provide the broad range of benefits and protections provided by law

For more information visit Human rights Campaign - Marriage center


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## MamaTT (Aug 29, 2003)

As a person who fits everything crunchy here at MDC (well I don't lotus birth...) but is a cultural conservative, I never fit . So here I go putting my neck out on the chopping block. (Do we have a smiley for that yet?)

Sigh.
I really do wish that I had time to address this as thoroughly as I would like, but I do want to point out, as an aside, that at this juncture, people who fit the designation of caucasian/christian/heterosexual and especially those who are conservative in moral/political stance are increasingly marginalized in our culture. I am sure this sounds ridiculous to you!

I can't go into fully documented details at the moment, due to being ill and the kids being super fussy, but the general atmosphere of academia (which tends to portend the direction of society in general) is very, very hostile to Christians. Really. If you are a minority in another sense, you might get away with it, but maybe not. People lose their jobs. And not just white collar places, either. My Dh works at TJ's and he only barely gets away with going to church --because he agreed to work the late shift on Sundays. It's not that he's proselytizing, just trying to practice for himself.

While the pres and possibly much of the executive branch may fit the dreaded designation, most of the rest of government are not. Sure, most are white, but that is changing. Most are straight, but so is the general populace, so that is to be expected. Most are not Christians, and those who are don't often have the balls (or ovaries) to go beyond nominalism. (John Kerry comes to mind. WTF is he doing calling himself a Catholic?)

Personally, I am so disillusioned with the performance of the current administration WRT spending and the encroachment on civil liberties, that I have no idea whom to vote for. At this point I really will be writing in Charles Shaw.

I do agree with Hayes that selective tolerence is in the air here.

Computer time is over...


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

... and the beat goes on.

Selective tolerance. hmmm...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ya know I just don't feel guilty for standing up for my rights to be who I was BORN as.

nope just don't.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MamaTT_
*As a person who fits everything crunchy here at MDC (well I don't lotus birth...) but is a cultural conservative, I never fit . So here I go putting my neck out on the chopping block. (Do we have a smiley for that yet?)

Sigh.
I really do wish that I had time to address this as thoroughly as I would like, but I do want to point out, as an aside, that at this juncture, people who fit the designation of caucasian/christian/heterosexual and especially those who are conservative in moral/political stance are increasingly marginalized in our culture. I am sure this sounds ridiculous to you!

I can't go into fully documented details at the moment, due to being ill and the kids being super fussy, but the general atmosphere of academia (which tends to portend the direction of society in general) is very, very hostile to Christians. Really. If you are a minority in another sense, you might get away with it, but maybe not. People lose their jobs. And not just white collar places, either. My Dh works at TJ's and he only barely gets away with going to church --because he agreed to work the late shift on Sundays. It's not that he's proselytizing, just trying to practice for himself.

While the pres and possibly much of the executive branch may fit the dreaded designation, most of the rest of government are not. Sure, most are white, but that is changing. Most are straight, but so is the general populace, so that is to be expected. Most are not Christians, and those who are don't often have the balls (or ovaries) to go beyond nominalism. (John Kerry comes to mind. WTF is he doing calling himself a Catholic?)

Personally, I am so disillusioned with the performance of the current administration WRT spending and the encroachment on civil liberties, that I have no idea whom to vote for. At this point I really will be writing in Charles Shaw.

I do agree with Hayes that selective tolerence is in the air here.

Computer time is over...








*
You have GOT to be kidding me.

Have you taken a gander at the statistics of those who are unemployed? Compared the wages of caucasians to ethnic minorities? Checked out discrimination laws, or lack thereof, lately? Did you hear about the study that was just done in which identical resumes were mailed out to companies, some with "white" names and others with "African-American" names? Guess who got more offers? Guess who was offered more money?

I'm so sick of hearing about the poor, marginalized, white man that I could puke. It makes me sick to my stomach, literally.

I have no tolerance for bigots, and I don't apologize for that. If you really think that heterosexual, Christian whites are the marginalized ones in this country, then you are a bigot.

Tolerance is not a word I like. I prefer acceptance. I do not accept people who are intolerant. I do not accept their opinions or their views because they threaten MY civil liberties. I don't have respect for people that don't think I should have the same rights as them. I won't engage in civil discourse with someone who sees me as less-deserving of the personal freedoms they enjoy.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Another thing, I don't get where people think that they are "entitled" to certain opinions. I hear people all the time follow or preceed a racist, homophobic, or otherwise intolerant diarreaha of the mouth with "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion." No, you aren't. I don't think people are entitled to opinions that involve the oppression of another person.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

WOW Mothra, very eloquent


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## MamaTT (Aug 29, 2003)

Quote:

I don't think people are entitled to opinions that involve the oppression of another person.
Well this just happens to be the reason I am pro- life.

And not that it means anything to you, but I am strongly opposed to racial discrimination. We can agree on some things.

And contrary to your beliefs, Mothra, we are supposedly guaranteed not only the right to have opinions, but also to speak them. I know that there are starting to be hate speech laws there, and I think that they are actually something pretty dangerous. They can be so easily abused. But I have a libertarian streak that way.

There is a famous quote (I forget by whom) that goes, "I disagree with every word you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it." That is the spirit upon which are county was founded and I find it sad that we have strayed so far. No-one has the right not to be offended. This is the argument used to often against nursing in public, as I am sure you are aware.

I have more to say, but it will wait.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

How can you insist that white christians are the marginalized people in this society and say that you are against racial discrimination at the same time? Unless you are talking about racial discrimination against whites?

You might want to look up some definitions of racism.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

The quote you are attempting is usually attributed to Voltaire, thoug it is doubtful he said it. In any case the US was not founded on anything remotely like that. That's why the part of the Constitution that addresses freedom of speech is an amendment. It was added later.

I am finding your posts to be really judgemental both in what you say and your general tone. And yeah, that's your right... sure. But don't be surprised when people react negatively to that.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because I disagree with it, and may even call it racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. doesn't mean that the person doesn't have a right to express it. As long as they don't express it by physically harming another person, or threatening them, then it's fine. I do believe that the KKK has a right to assemble and march. I despise everything about the KKK, but I recognize that they have the same Constitutional rights as the rest of us.

I think that the whole "everyone's against white Christian heterosexuals" thing is a combination of a few factors.
First, there's the assumption of many Christians that only those people who believe as they do (esp. fundies) are TRUE Christians. This makes them a) a minority and b) persecuted (who likes proselytizers?) Then, there's what they hear in church or from their favorite holier-than-thou radio/tv/website spokesperson. They are told that they are the minority, they're persecuted, and they need to save everyone else cuz armeggedon's a-comin'! They also feel persecuted because of the changes in society. They take things like the Separation of Church and State and the possibility of equal rights for homosexuals as being against them personally.
Then, there's things like Affirmative Action. Many people (esp. Caucasians) take issue with Aff. Action. I, personally, don't like it because I don't see it as changing what needs to be changed. We need equal living conditions, education, and wages, for instance. I think Aff. Action is only a short-term solution for a select few. But, back to my point. Some white people see Aff. Action as taking something from them. They see themselves losing jobs or college placements because they're white. The sense of white entitlement is long-lived, and will take a while to die out. Most white people have no sense of white privilege. They don't understand it, and need to be educated. Many white people have lived in white neighborhoods their entire lives, and have no sense of what many racial minorities have experienced. They don't understand the ongoing racism in our society. They don't even recognize racism when it's staring them in the face (or wading through their own minds). There is a huge backlash because of Aff. Action. That's contributing to the "white people are persecuted" idea.
The whole heterosexual thing? I think many heterosexuals are homophobic. They don't understand homosexuality (or bisexuality, transgendered people, etc.). What they don't understand, they fear. There's also the history of homophobia in the USA. Many people are still raised to think that homosexuality is wrong, bad, evil, sinful, etc. They use derogatory, homophobic terms to hurt each other. They don't understand that sexuality is not a choice. They also don't understand the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. So, they don't want equal rights for GBLT people. Any attempts at equal rights are seen as "special rights," and so heterosexuals think they're being persecuted.
Overall, I think this is a privilege issue. It's also an issue of society evolving too quickly for some people (though, not quickly enough for many of us). Change is scary. It's especially scary when your position at the top of the food chain is suddenly being threatened.
White, heterosexual Christians are the people in power in the USA. You try arguing with them about how things need to change, how we don't want them to be in power anymore, or we want equal rights to them, they become threatened. Their position is no longer secure. They don't like being told that they're wrong, that they've hurt people. So, they throw out that they're being persecuted. They can't handle that they've been the ones persecuting everyone else.

Just my thoughts on the matter... Take them as you will...


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Fair is fair is fair. And if this

Quote:

My Dh works at TJ's and he only barely gets away with going to church --because he agreed to work the late shift on Sundays. It's not that he's proselytizing, just trying to practice for himself.
is happening, it is not fair IMO. I support the right of Muslims & Jews to take time off for their religion- I can't then deny it to anyone else.

And I'm quite sure this opinion will be unpopular, but I believe that if you force people to hold their opinions in, the opinion doesn't go away, it simply goes underground. I would much rather know that people don't like me- I would defend their right to say what they like about me, because I think it's very scary to not know....... Flame away, but I believe orgainsations like the KKK were developed as a way for people to have a political voice (albeit a hateful one) that was denied to them immediately after the Civil War. And unfortunately, the KKK has hung around. Forever it seems. Much better to get all that hatred & racism out in the open- at least you can fight it with words then.

oh, & if you all do decide to blast away, I'm not ignoring you- I've just gone away for the weekend.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kama'aina mama_
*And yeah, that's your right... sure. But don't be surprised when people react negatively to that.*

Exactly. People are entitled to hold any opinion, and they have the right to speak those opinions. They just can't expect everyone to *respect* those opinions.

I can respect someone's right to hold and speak an opinion, without respecting the opinion itself.


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## MamaTT (Aug 29, 2003)

I am sooooo not surprised.









I do apologize for the tone of my last post. I was brusque and I see how it could have been taken as mean spirited. I will post when I don't have kids hanging on me and I have time to take several deep breaths.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Thank you for your post, lotusdebi. I was nodding my head all the way through it.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*I believe orgainsations like the KKK were developed as a way for people to have a political voice (albeit a hateful one) that was denied to them immediately after the Civil War.*
I have to disagree with this statement. The KKK was formed to threaten, intimidate, and kill blacks and other minorities (or those who supported them). Read Freedom Road . That stuff really happened.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I doubt anyone here is denying anyones right have an opinion. The problem comes when your opinion is being used to deny me safety, equality and happiness.

Because your homophobia, bigotry, racism ect is not an acceptable reason to deny me the right to love, marry, have a relationship, be a parent or worship.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I doubt anyone here is denying anyones right have an opinion.*

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*I don't get where people think that they are "entitled" to certain opinions. I hear people all the time follow or preceed a racist, homophobic, or otherwise intolerant diarreaha of the mouth with "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion." No, you aren't. I don't think people are entitled to opinions that involve the oppression of another person.*

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*The problem comes when your opinion is being used to deny me safety, equality and happiness.

Because your homophobia, bigotry, racism ect is not an acceptable reason to deny me the right to love, marry, have a relationship, be a parent or worship.*
Exactly.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

aussiemom, I have to disagree. I'm not sure anyone has a right to time off from their job to practice their religion. Is it nice if they can all be accomodated? Yes, of course.... but as soon as you start treating it like a right it could easily lead to "Yes, you seem very qualified... and do you practice a religion? Oh, I'm very sorry but I can't hire you. I already have too many Muslims/Jews/Christians and I need to hire someone I can schedule to work on Fri/Sat/Sun." If engaging in certain practices of religion is important enough to a person they need to find a job where there will be little or no conflict with that practice. That said, I'm sorry this is difficult for your DH, TT's mom.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

SBFmommy I have actually done a lot of reading on the Civil War- history is an interest of mine, especially civil wars & resistance movements- altho I haven't read the book you recommend.

Quote:

The KKK was formed to threaten, intimidate, and kill blacks and other minorities (or those who supported them).
Goodness me, I'm not denying that happened!! Next thing you know I'll have folks thinking I'm a Holocaust denier!!





























But I also know that white landholders were not allowed to vote in the years immediately after the Civil War, which I believe was one of the 'triggers' for the development of the KKK.

Quote:

Because your homophobia, bigotry, racism ect is not an acceptable reason to deny me the right to love, marry, have a relationship, be a parent or worship.
Arduinna, I hope that's a generic you & you don't think I'm like that!! That is my point- I don't think anybody should be denied the right to be a parent, or get married, or whatever just because they are part of some sort of 'minority' group. You won't find me gay-bashing, my dear, far from it. I just want it all out on the table- no more hiding our opinions & thoughts because I want to know my enemy, if that makes any sense........


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

cross posting here! Kama, I think if we work at it we can find a way to accomodate people's beliefs. I mean, I wouldn't force an Orthodox Jew to work on Saturday, & I can't deny her a job because her faith means she doesn't work for a certain period of time. So I think Christians should get time off on Sunday to go to church. And Muslims should get time each day for prayers. Not all people who practice a religion are so devout that they follow all the 'rules'. I'm sure there are enough non-practicers out there to cover the Saturday & Sunday am shift..... Why can't we be open about it? Why can't the pagans say 'today's such & such holiday' without having people look at them like they've got horns on their head?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Anyone who thinks that everyone should have the right to express their opinions anywhere they like has never had racial slurs hurled at them as they walked from the grocery store to the car with their kids. This didn't happen to me, but it happened to my dad. And it wasn't just the grocery store. Words hurt, words are dangerous. And what are words but opinions? People who have the opinion that certain people are less human than they for whatever reason are dangerous.

Call me whatever you want, but on the grand scheme of things, a white, Christian man not getting every Sunday off just isn't high on my list of priorities when it comes to righting wrongs. Many Christians simply cannot comprehend what TRUE religious prosecution is. Unless other employees who practice other religions are getting their holy days off, it isn't really religious discrimination.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*Kama, I think if we work at it we can find a way to accomodate people's beliefs. I mean, I wouldn't force an Orthodox Jew to work on Saturday, & I can't deny her a job because her faith means she doesn't work for a certain period of time. So I think Christians should get time off on Sunday to go to church. And Muslims should get time each day for prayers.*
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there, too. What's to stop me from starting my own Sun Worship religion and saying I can't work during daylight hours but also can't be denied a job because of it? A job should be allowed to require that you work through the weekend. If you don't want to work through the weekend -- for *whatever* reason -- don't take that job. Find a different job. I actually think it's unfair and discriminatory toward those of us who are nonreligious, when you allow religious people to always have weekend days off, and then we end up always having to work on the weekends to compensate for them not being there.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, like I said... it's great if people CAN be accomodated. It really is. But those who don't practice any particular faith are gonna get tired of always taking sloppy seconds when it comes to days off. Suppose I am a budding photographer and I need Saturdays off to work at weddings. Or I'm a part time DJ and work at a club until 4am on Sat night/Sun morning. Does that make my desire to not work the Sunday brunch shift less valid than someones religion? Scheduling for jobs in the leisure industries can honestly be a nightmare. The bottom line is that some jobs require people to work during the hours that most people consider 'free time'. As a result the people in leisure industries are always struggling with missing important events in their families, their faith communities and of other interest to them. It's just the nature of the beast. (I'm going out on a limb here and assuming TJ's is a restaurant of some sort... I've never heard of it.)

It seems to me that this is a personal issue and people need to find a life that will work for them. It's not their employers responsibility.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Mothra-
Words hurt, no doubt. But I guess my point is that by someone shouting abuse at your dad, we all get to see that for the evil that it is & it offers an opportunity to speak against it. It offers an opportunity to say 'I'm sorry that happened to you' even if the abuse is something you would never do yourself. I just think that is far better than someone glowering at you from their car & muttering insults quietly where you can't hear them. I don't have the experience of someone hating me for the colour of my skin (but I have directly witnessed it happening to a friend)........ people hate me for things that I can hide on the outside, but it doesn't make me change who I really am, any more than someone can change the colour of their skin........

I really am outta here now- I have got to go check those seedlings........ have a nice weekend everyone....... even those who have to work.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

too many posts, anyway for whoever asked about my use of the word your, it was in the plural sense.

Generally I use you and your in the plural sense unless I'm quoting someone or otherwise make it obvious that it's to someone specific.

Mothra, very good point regarding how opinions become translated into action.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

on the topic of religious holidays and time off work. I know that in CA employers are required to give you time off for relgious holidays. My ex rabbi's wife was the one that brought the case before the court that made it a law.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MamaTT_
*...(John Kerry comes to mind. WTF is he doing calling himself a Catholic?)...*
He is a Catholic. And luckily for him, that's between him and God, not between him and you.


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## lotusbeans (Dec 20, 2003)

.....

.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

This is where the reality of the unholy alliance between big business and evangelical Christianity rears its ugly head. Business doesn't give a fig if you want the day off to pray - it's not in their interests. The mantra of business is: business must be served before all else. Before religion. Before family. Before preservation of or promotion of life. Those who worship the invisible hands of the market will tolerate the promotion of other issues like the right to life and prayer in schools only insofar as it doesn't impede access to cheap labor, or affect the bottom line.

And as for Kerry's Catholicity, Bush was (and still is, from time to time) denounced by his own bishops too.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Anyone who thinks that everyone should have the right to express their opinions anywhere they like has never had racial slurs hurled at them as they walked from the grocery store to the car with their kids. This didn't happen to me, but it happened to my dad. And it wasn't just the grocery store. Words hurt, words are dangerous. And what are words but opinions? People who have the opinion that certain people are less human than they for whatever reason are dangerous.

Call me whatever you want, but on the grand scheme of things, a white, Christian man not getting every Sunday off just isn't high on my list of priorities when it comes to righting wrongs. Many Christians simply cannot comprehend what TRUE religious prosecution is. Unless other employees who practice other religions are getting their holy days off, it isn't really religious discrimination.

We've gotten that a few times- one a restaurant which was especially uncomfortable because it was well over heard and we had to finish our meal and nobody said anything to calm the mood it left. UGH. I was so mad that it had to be said in front of our children.

I support free speech... of course I never want to hear anything like that again although I'm sure we will. It is a confusing topic for me.

I agree though that religious discrimination is when every religious group is allowed to do XXX but a particular one isn't.

WRT the OP- I *love* that saying. We should form a co-op and buy a bunch of window clings for our cars (much better than bumper stickers) :LOL I don't get how that is offensive. Unless you want it to be that type of country... it is just saying that although those are the majority of citizens, it is not the only citizens. To many people forget that, good people included.


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