# ?re: changing a convertible seat to a booster



## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

my 3 year old is in a cosco alpha omega convertible seat.

The booklet says
"when your child is over 40 lbs. or 40" and over and over 1 year old, you must remove the harness and the base and use this seat as a belt-positioning booster."

Ds is just under 40 lbs. and is about 41", but the harness still fits him just fine. His shoulders are level with the holes the the harness comes through. Is there a reason why I should take the harness out just because he's over 40", even though it still fits him? It seems safer to me.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

If he is under 40# and his shoulders are under the 4th set of slots (PLEASE check the back of your seat to see), then he is fine in the harness. If he's using the 5th set of slots, it needs to be a booster ASAP.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

A three year old child is in no way, shape or form old enough to be using a belt positioning booster.

If you are using the top slots of your AOE in harness mode, you need to buy a new harnessed seat ASAP. You will be needing to buy one anyway, as your boy is nearly 40 lbs.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Why did I think he was 5? Oops!


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
A three year old child is in no way, shape or form old enough to be using a belt positioning booster.

If you are using the top slots of your AOE in harness mode, you need to buy a new harnessed seat ASAP. You will be needing to buy one anyway, as your boy is nearly 40 lbs.

It's not on the top slots, that position is only for booster use. It's on the one below that.

So are you basically saying that this seat is dangerous in its intended use? Ds is kind of a big kid but well within normal and according to the makers of this seat, will be in belt-positioning booster territory when he's 3.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 

So are you basically saying that this seat is dangerous in its intended use? Ds is kind of a big kid but well within normal and according to the makers of this seat, will be in belt-positioning booster territory when he's 3.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes! Cosco has a history of selling dangerous seats. (Case in point:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/servic...ck=1&cset=true )
That's why my Alpha Omega got trashed a long time ago.
A child needs to be at least four years old to be safe in a booster. The Alpha Omega makes a terrible booster anyway; it has funny belt guides that don't keep the belt snug against the child, posing a risk of ejection in the event of a crash.


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes! Cosco has a history of selling dangerous seats. (Case in point:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/servic...ck=1&cset=true )
That's why my Alpha Omega got trashed a long time ago.
A child needs to be at least four years old to be safe in a booster. The Alpha Omega makes a terrible booster anyway; it has funny belt guides that don't keep the belt snug against the child, posing a risk of ejection in the event of a crash.

Do you know why 4 years old?

Also, does anyone know of sites with safety comparisons of different seats? I see that one sticky in this forum, but that looks like it is just rating ease of use?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 
It's not on the top slots, that position is only for booster use. It's on the one below that.

So are you basically saying that this seat is dangerous in its intended use? Ds is kind of a big kid but well within normal and according to the makers of this seat, will be in belt-positioning booster territory when he's 3.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Four years and forty pounds is the bare minimum for transferring from a five point harness to a belt positioning then, and even so, most car seat safety enthusiasts wouldn't even consider a bpb as an option before the fifth birthday.

The AOE is a notably bad carseat in this regard.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would never never never put an under 4 yr old kid in a booster. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a 4 yr old in anything but a harnessed seat.

Going from a harnessed seat to a booster is a HUGE step down in safety for a number of reasons. Most simply though is the difference in a crash of how a 3pt seat belt fits vs. a 5pt. harness.

-Angela


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Four years and forty pounds is the bare minimum for transferring from a five point harness to a belt positioning then, and even so, most car seat safety enthusiasts wouldn't even consider a bpb as an option before the fifth birthday.

The AOE is a notably bad carseat in this regard.

Hmm, well I'm glad I asked. Maybe I'm naive, but if four years is the bare minimum for a booster, why is a seat allowed to be sold that is sized for a normal sized three year old to be in a booster? Where is the four year old rule written down?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 
Hmm, well I'm glad I asked. Maybe I'm naive, but if four years is the bare minimum for a booster, why is a seat allowed to be sold that is sized for a normal sized three year old to be in a booster? Where is the four year old rule written down?

Why is it allowed to be sold? Because it makes money.

-Angela


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Why is it allowed to be sold? Because it makes money.

-Angela

Well, yeah, but I thought that car seat manufacturing was regulated to conform with certain standards. So I'm wondering about the four year minimum for a booster and where that comes from.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 
Well, yeah, but I thought that car seat manufacturing was regulated to conform with certain standards. So I'm wondering about the four year minimum for a booster and where that comes from.

The standards are very, very low.

The 4 year standard has to do with a number of factors- skeletal strength being one- just like turning from rf to ff.

Also to sit in a booster, a child must be able to sit perfectly correctly at all times every time (this includes not falling asleep) I've not known children who could do this before 4 at the earliest.

-Angela


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Here is my favorite link on appropriate booster use:


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

And here are some others, kindly provided by someone on another forum:

mentions weight and maturity:
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/BoosterShop.aspx

2005 Data: Car crashes #2 cause of death for ages 1-3, and #1 cause of death ages 4-34:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd...005/809831.pdf

High Back Booster seat crash test:
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...xicosirodi.mpg

5 point harness crash test:
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...cosipriori.mpg

The CHOP on child safety seats:
http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...c.jsp?id=77971

The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia on booster seats:
http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...74#when_should

Why We Use Booster Seats (on pg 2, point #3 it gives age and weight guidelines of 'about' age 4 & 40 lbs):
http://www.safe.state.mn.us/BoosterS...ove%20res).pdf

Here are the links to some crash tests of booster seats:
http://www.oeamtc.at/videobox/index....movie_kind=swf

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...g_P3_vorne.mpg

I hope something in there helps you out! You won't find it written in stone anywhere that you can't put a three year old in a booster, because here in the US it is legal to do so. Like Angela said, the standards are very, very low. Just like it's legal to turn a 22 pound 13 month old forward facing. It's legal, it just isn't safe.


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Thanks for all those links!

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'm going to get him weighed next week so I know exactly what weight I'm dealing with. And if he's 37 lbs. or so it really might take him a while to get up to 40, he's been gaining slowly since 2 or so. He really is pretty mature, calm, and non-wiggly, so it almost seems like he could be ready for a booster by the time he outgrows the harness, but I can definitely appreciate the thought that 3 or just barely 4 years old is just too young for a booster.

Does anyone know what the less expensive higher weight limit 5-pt. harness seats are, off the top of your head?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 
Does anyone know what the less expensive higher weight limit 5-pt. harness seats are, off the top of your head?

There's the Apex- if your car has head rests or a high seat back. There's the Fisher price seat (safe voyage?) that's a stripped down marathon.

Then you get into the radian, regent and new recaro price range.

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 
Thanks for all those links!

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'm going to get him weighed next week so I know exactly what weight I'm dealing with. And if he's 37 lbs. or so it really might take him a while to get up to 40, he's been gaining slowly since 2 or so. He really is pretty mature, calm, and non-wiggly, so it almost seems like he could be ready for a booster by the time he outgrows the harness, but I can definitely appreciate the thought that 3 or just barely 4 years old is just too young for a booster.

Does anyone know what the less expensive higher weight limit 5-pt. harness seats are, off the top of your head?

If he's just 37 lbs you may have 6 months or more before it's a worry, from a weight perspective anyway.

The answer as to why it's still being sold? Because it SELLS. People see it in the catalogue and think, "hey, a seat that will last me until my child is ready to be in a seat belt!" and they buy it. And since every child grows differently, Dorel can't be slapped under Truth in Advertising laws.

US standards for carseats are amazingly pathetic.

If you let us know your budget and your car, I can make some higher harnessing weight suggestions


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
If he's just 37 lbs you may have 6 months or more before it's a worry, from a weight perspective anyway.

The answer as to why it's still being sold? Because it SELLS. People see it in the catalogue and think, "hey, a seat that will last me until my child is ready to be in a seat belt!" and they buy it. And since every child grows differently, Dorel can't be slapped under Truth in Advertising laws.

US standards for carseats are amazingly pathetic.

If you let us know your budget and your car, I can make some higher harnessing weight suggestions









Yeah, I'm just not sure EXACTLY how much he weighs. Our scale isn't very accurate, so I'll stop by the doctor's office in town next week. I actually think his height will be an issue before his weight. His shoulders are right at the level of the harness holes now.

We have a`'97 suburu outback station wagon - no LATCH. Budget is hard to pinpoint - I don't even know the range of pricing without checking ... I don't want to say something ridiculously low and be scoffed at







. But really, we don't have expendable income, it would come out of savings. Is $50 ridiculously low?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
*US standards for carseats are amazingly pathetic.*









:

Just worth repeating...

-Angela


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Unfortunately I think the cheapest you are going to find is the Apex, and the best price I've seen on it is $100.
This is why the 3 in 1 pisses me off so much. They sell for about $150. But a parent can buy a Cosco Scenera for $40, and then later an Apex for $100, their kids will be a lot safer and they'll be money ahead. It's aggravating the way Cosco suckers parents into wasting money on this seat by advertising it as "the only seat you'll ever need". It's really unfair to people with limited budgets.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neldavi* 

We have a`'97 suburu outback station wagon - no LATCH. Budget is hard to pinpoint - I don't even know the range of pricing without checking ... I don't want to say something ridiculously low and be scoffed at







. But really, we don't have expendable income, it would come out of savings. Is $50 ridiculously low?










I've got bad news for you







I'm not scoffing









There are combination seats in the fifty dollar range, but all of them max out at 40 lbs for the harness, which doesn't do you any good.

The CHEAPEST seat that has a nice tall harness (17 inches) and a greater-than-40 weight limit (65 lbs) is the Cosco/Safety First Apex/Biltmore which runs between 90-130 depending on cover/sales. It converts to a booster up to 100 lbs. It's a great niche seat, but you MUST HAVE HEADRESTS to use it. If you don't have headrests, it's not an option, unfortunately.

Do you have headrests?


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## Neldavi (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 

Do you have headrests?









yes, on the side seats, not the middle, which is where I've had him, with dd rear-facing on the side. But I guess he could sit on the side, that would be an ok trade-off.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

If you have headrests you can get the Apex. I had to do that with my dc. My dd was 40lbs at 3years and now my 2.5 year old is fast approaching 40lbs. As long as it will work with your vehicle the apex would be a good buy for you.

I got mine on albee for $100


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
Unfortunately I think the cheapest you are going to find is the Apex, and the best price I've seen on it is $100.
This is why the 3 in 1 pisses me off so much. They sell for about $150. But a parent can buy a Cosco Scenera for $40, and then later an Apex for $100, their kids will be a lot safer and they'll be money ahead. It's aggravating the way Cosco suckers parents into wasting money on this seat by advertising it as "the only seat you'll ever need". It's really unfair to people with limited budgets.









: It is WRONG!


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

I would so love to know what you would do if you had a 50lbs child who's only 3yrs old. Plus you have no $$ to spend for a better carseat that has the 5pt harness for over 50lbs. They have no choice to be in a booster. This is what happen to my friend. She had no choice to put her child in a booster seat at this age. She didn't want to but there was/is no other carseat here that she could have bought.

There is no rule about putting a child under or even over 4yrs old in a booster. It goes with the weightand/or height.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
If he is under 40# and his shoulders are under the 4th set of slots (PLEASE check the back of your seat to see), then he is fine in the harness. If he's using the 5th set of slots, it needs to be a booster ASAP.

My ds is using the 5th slot on the Eddie Bauer High Back Booster? He is just under 40lbs and is almost 2.5. I was waiting until 40lbs to move him to the apex b/c dd is in it right now. What is the reason that he can't be using the 5th slot?


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandrine* 
I would so love to know what you would do if you had a 50lbs child who's only 3yrs old. Plus you have no $$ to spend for a better carseat that has the 5pt harness for over 50lbs. They have no choice to be in a booster. This is what happen to my friend. She had no choice to put her child in a booster seat at this age. She didn't want to but there was/is no other carseat here that she could have bought.

There is no rule about putting a child under or even over 4yrs old in a booster. It goes with the weightand/or height.


I would have spent the cheapest amount I could have which is $100 dollars and gotten a carseat that harnesses to 65lbs.

Not having the money isn't an excuse for me, I would have saved up, borrowed from friends whatever it takes.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandrine* 
I would so love to know what you would do if you had a 50lbs child who's only 3yrs old. Plus you have no $$ to spend for a better carseat that has the 5pt harness for over 50lbs. They have no choice to be in a booster. This is what happen to my friend. She had no choice to put her child in a booster seat at this age. She didn't want to but there was/is no other carseat here that she could have bought.


The Kyle David ****** Foundation provides HWL seats to low income people in need.
http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages...y_for_Help.htm


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lil_stinkyfeet* 
I would have spent the cheapest amount I could have which is $100 dollars and gotten a carseat that harnesses to 65lbs.

Not having the money isn't an excuse for me, I would have saved up, borrowed from friends whatever it takes.

I never saw any seat in Canada that had harnesses to 65lbs. To 47lbs was the max i ever saw. Please don't say that Britax do make seats up to 65lbs with harnesses because we can't get them up here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
The Kyle David ****** Foundation provides HWL seats to low income people in need.
http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages...y_for_Help.htm

That's looks like a great site but it's not available for canadians.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Ya know, in most cases Canadian lawmakers are MUCH more sensible than Americans. The one exception is carseats! I don't get why it was just THIS YEAR that 65lb seats were approved to be sold in Canada. And the Regent is still not allowed there. I just don't get it. You have my sympathies, in that respect.
Not that America is a WHOLE lot better. Here you can't get a seat that rearfaces past 35 pounds. In the Netherlands they go to 50! I don't get why that is. I would SO LOVE for those 50lb rearfacing seats to be available here...


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

The Kyle David ****** Foundation does not just supply Regents. They also have Radian80's, called the Radian Premier in Canada. It's only rated to 65 lbs in Canada, though.


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

It still doesn't mean that it's available everywhere in canada. I never saw it here.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

I've heard Canadian Tire is a popular place to get them.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandrine* 
I never saw any seat in Canada that had harnesses to 65lbs. To 47lbs was the max i ever saw. Please don't say that Britax do make seats up to 65lbs with harnesses because we can't get them up here.


The marathon will now be labeled for use up to 65lbs in Canada as well as the radian.

-Angela


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

You can always order them online, too.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Someone told me and the ministry of transportation site seems to suggest that the law is that children must be in a boost between 40 and 80 pounds, and cannot be in a harness past 40 pounds. It's stupid.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

I think that is the way it used to be in Canada, but Canadian techs on other boards have told me that just recently (like in the last few months) they have started allowing kids to be harnessed in Canada until 65 pounds.

I agree that to put any limit on how long you can keep your own child as safe as possible in the car is, as you said, stupid. That's about the ONLY reason I can be thankful I don't live there!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Someone told me and the ministry of transportation site seems to suggest that the law is that children must be in a boost between 40 and 80 pounds, and cannot be in a harness past 40 pounds. It's stupid.

That's the way the law was. It was recently changed.

-Angela


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Can you help me find a source?

Of course, I can ask DP to ask his colleagues at the Ministry of Transportation.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Here ya go:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/child...07c06/menu.htm


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Thank you so much!

My oldest is still far way from even 40 pounds, but that makes me feel a lot better.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Ok, this has been making me ponder... If the US standards are more stringent than the Canadian standards, why don't more Canadians buy US seats and use them according to US rules? Ok, I know that would be technically illegal. But, when you consider how vastly many people misuse carseats in ways that are dangerous, wouldn't "misusing" seats in a way that is safer than your country requires pretty much pass under the radar?

This is *purely* a hypothetical question, I am *not* criticizing anyone for not doing this!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Except for the harness thing, which has now been changed, the standards are not less stringent. In fact, I have read the opposite.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

We have the Britax Boulevard, which has a weight limit of 65 pounds...but...I just had to turn it forward-facing because it has a huge warning to do so once the child is over 20 pounds. DD turns one today, and, although I'd much rather keep her rear-facing, she's 22 pounds so I switched it.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Except for the harness thing, which has now been changed, the standards are not less stringent. In fact, I have read the opposite.

Canada's standards are definitely more stringent. The US doesn't have any mandatory safety standards (barring carseats) on childrens' products, whereas Canada does. 'Nuff said.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
We have the Britax Boulevard, which has a weight limit of 65 pounds...but...I just had to turn it forward-facing because it has a huge warning to do so once the child is over 20 pounds. DD turns one today, and, although I'd much rather keep her rear-facing, she's 22 pounds so I switched it.









I'm surprised. I thought Britax had high rf limits.

My non Britax car seats can rf to 35 pounds.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
We have the Britax Boulevard, which has a weight limit of 65 pounds...but...I just had to turn it forward-facing because it has a huge warning to do so once the child is over 20 pounds. DD turns one today, and, although I'd much rather keep her rear-facing, she's 22 pounds so I switched it.









Go re-read it. The Boulevard has a rf weight of 33lbs. You misread.

-Angela


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Go re-read it. The Boulevard has a rf weight of 33lbs. You misread.

-Angela

Seats in Canada only RF to 30 pounds.

But yes, she did misread it. The Britax seats are kinda confusing if you read the sticker. A tech did the same thing with ours at a check--she read the "Rear facing ONLY for children under 20 pounds" and didn't see the "RF to 33 lbs, FF from 20-65 lbs" part. They really need to re-word that sticker.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson* 
Ok, this has been making me ponder... If the US standards are more stringent than the Canadian standards, why don't more Canadians buy US seats and use them according to US rules? Ok, I know that would be technically illegal. But, when you consider how vastly many people misuse carseats in ways that are dangerous, wouldn't "misusing" seats in a way that is safer than your country requires pretty much pass under the radar?

This is *purely* a hypothetical question, I am *not* criticizing anyone for not doing this!

Canadian child restraint laws are more stringent in MOST ways. But you're right in that in the US, you can put your child in a Regent to keep them harnessed when they outgrow the MA/Radian. Regents are not approved for use in Canada. AND, I believe all seats in Canada still have a 30 lb rearfacing limit (?), whereas in the US, many seats rearface to 35 pounds. So as to your question about people buying seats in the US and using them illegally in Canada, I know of a few Canadian techs who have made the parental decision to do exactly that. Just like there are a few Americans who import seats from Sweden to keep their 36 pound 1 or 2 year olds rearfacing, even though Swedish seats are not legally approved for use in the US. It happens.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
We have the Britax Boulevard, which has a weight limit of 65 pounds...but...I just had to turn it forward-facing because it has a huge warning to do so once the child is over 20 pounds. DD turns one today, and, although I'd much rather keep her rear-facing, she's 22 pounds so I switched it.









That sticker is very, very confusing. I can't remember exactly what it says but something about "Rearfacing only until 20 pounds". It means you can only use the seat only rearfacing, not forward facing, until 20 pounds. But it does not mean that you can use it rearfacing only until your kid is 20 pounds and then you have to turn it. Britax seats in Canada rearface to 30 pounds, US ones to 33 pounds. You can (and absolutely should) turn her back rearfacing.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the 30lb clarification. I didn't realize that the boulevard was available in Canada. Last I heard only the Marathon was (of the high limit britax seats)

-Angela


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Oops, maybe they aren't. I wonder if she bought it in the U.S?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
Oops, maybe they aren't. I wonder if she bought it in the U.S?

That's what I was thinking... in which case it's rated to rf until 33lbs









-Angela


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

I just got word from a Canadian on another board. She says they still just have the RA and the MA.
You're right!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
Oops, maybe they aren't. I wonder if she bought it in the U.S?

She must have bought it in the US. Sorry, scratch what I said earlier


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