# "the best gift you can give them is the gift of sleep"



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i was just on another message board where some mamas were talking about CIO. someone said this in regards to CIO--how it's such a great thing to teach your baby to sleep on their own and "self-soothe." this sent chills up my spine, literally.

just the rationalization of this practice as something that is for your child, for their own good--it's manipulative and insidious and









some poor mama is going to read that and think she has to CIO for her child's own good, even though she feels terrible inside about it, KWIM?

and the mama who made the statement went on to say ferber/controlled crying didn't work for them--they had to do "extinction." the pedi told them to feed and change their baby, then lay him down and not go in till the morning. TEN HOURS MINIMUM.

wow, just wow.









my heart breaks for these children, and i have no idea why leaving your baby unattended for 10 hours could be construed as anything less than child abuse. but somehow it's supposed to be a "gift."


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## amp (Nov 23, 2007)

I know exactly what board you are talking about. I just finished reading that post and it makes me so angry. I have to bite my tongue alot when people at work and my family say things like that to me.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Could either of you post a response to this that wouldn't offend too much? I think it's important to offer another point of view on the subject, maybe get some of them thinking.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Could either of you post a response to this that wouldn't offend too much? I think it's important to offer another point of view on the subject, maybe get some of them thinking.









:







: people really do need to hear the other side of it--especially since the biology of babies really is known now--they need their mommies!!


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *locksmama* 







:







: people really do need to hear the other side of it--especially since the biology of babies really is known now--they need their mommies!!

i posted back to the OP (who said she was feeling bad about CIO) that if she was feeling bad, she should try something like the NCSS. and i mentioned to her about co-sleeping.

all i could think of to say to the responder who posted about the 10 hours thing was, "that's child abuse, you UAV." so i didn't post that.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

I DO give my son the gift of sleep. He is asleep right now. He sleeps through until morning. Does he rustle to nurse a couple times at night? Yes. But he has NEVER cried to sleep, and he has only cried at night when he's had gas pains. Beat that, CIO. I dare you.

I have a friend who CIOs NEWBORNS. Her DS is 2 1/2 and I didn't know about co-sleeping or anything like that when he was a babe. I have a feeling our friendship will fizzle when she gets pregnant again.


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## dimibella (Feb 5, 2007)

That is just waaaay too sad







I will never understand how people think that come night fall their babies don't need them anymore, I mean would they sit and ignore their child from 7am to 7pm? I know it's not exactly the same thing but come on, I thought parenting was a 24/7 job? I love my sleep, I mean really love my sleep and that's part of the reason I co-slept/sleep. I will never be convinced that CIO is anything but a/n convience/excuse for the adult. I really just don't get it.


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## Mommy2anangel (Dec 17, 2007)

I don't understand how people can't see that their babies need them!!! I read posts about CIO on this board I'm on and I can't even finish reading the posts. I'm about to tear up every time. It's sad


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## chemer (Jun 15, 2006)

10 hours!!!







: How can you leave a baby on it's own for 10 hours? How can you leave a small child on their own for 10 hours? Please post something in response to that.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

I think in addressing it it would be good to show how/why babies who are nighttime parented DO learn how to sleep on their own eventually and DO get plenty of sleep.

I hear this reasoning ALL THE TIME from really lovely, well-meaning mamas on another board. They really aren't doing it for their own convenience; they really do believe that a baby needs to learn to sleep on his own and that this is the only or best way to do it.

One thing I sometimes comment is that using NCSS techniques, I am helping the baby gently to learn sleep and self-soothing skills. CIO teaches baby that "no one's coming, might as well sleep;" NCSS teaches baby "if I wake up and I'm still sleepy, I can put myself back to sleep; here's how to do it."


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## jbirdmom (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm so glad I found you guys. We have a 6-month-old and before he was born, my DH was saying "he will sleep in the crib, not in the bed." Well, once he was born, DH fell instantly in love and HE is the one insisting our baby sleep with us. I can get our son to nap in his crib during the day (although they are usually short naps) and have suggested maybe starting him out there at night and if he wakes up, bring him to our bed, but my husband says no, we would both just worry about him if he weren't between us, which is true. Plus we just love waking up to his cute little face. So far we are content to co-sleep for however long. Our only problem is our baby not staying asleep unless one of us goes to bed early with him - we can usually have the tv on just about muted or bring the laptop or read because obviously we aren't ready to sleep at 7 or 8 pm., but one of us has to be next to him for him to stay asleep.

Anyway, just wanted to say how nice it is to have others here who do the same. When we were around my husband's family for the holidays, his brother kept saying how he would just let his son cry in the other room when he was a baby, hinting to us to just do CIO and not pick up the baby when he cried and rock him to nap. My mother-in-law kept suggesting CIO it out to us too, and I wanted to tell them to just mind their own business! I just ignored them and continued to pick him up. I did CIO one time, during the day adn I was right next to him. Our baby cried for a SOLID HOUR and then fell asleep - and woke up 10 minutes later. Never again!

My question is, I wonder what kind of impact this really has on our children? My brother-in-law's son is kind of a jerk (okay he's 8 so I feel bad saying that) but I wonder how much of an effect the CIO had on him? They don't remember that far back, so does it really affect them later in life? Right now I'm co-sleeping and picking him up when he cries intensely simply because that's what my baby needs. On my side of the family, my brother's children were co-sleepers and they are very good kids and very close to the parents (age 5 and 9). I can't help but think it shapes their personalities somehow ??


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

That makes me so sad. I have a couple of friends who did CIO and they recommended it to me. I had decided long before that, that it wouldn't be an option for us. I can tell that they look down their noses at me when I say that Oliver "still" isn't STTN, but I don't care. I love knowing that Oliver knows that if he cries, that mama or daddy is going to be there to hold him and rock him. One night I went in there and he had thrown up. He hadn't had any signs of sickness before that. It ran through my head that if we were a CIO family that he might have slept in his vomit all night. That thought made me really sad and reinforced why it's not a good idea. I think many parents say it's for the good of the baby in order to get over their own guilt.
Plus, I think one of the reasons Oliver has always gone to bed so easily is because he knows that if he needs us or wants to get up, that he can. Who am I to say that he doesn't need to see mama if he wakes in the middle of the night? Of course he'll sleep through the night eventually, probably when he isn't a BABY! Until then, he'll cry out for his parents, just like all babies do.


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## jbirdmom (Nov 7, 2007)

The vomiting thing happened with my brother's son once. His mom put him in a blocked off play area temporarily and was in the kitchen where she could see him. He cried and cried and she tried to talk him thru it, saying she'd be there in a minute, and he vomited. I also put our baby in his crib one evening while i was working in the next room. He woke up crying harder than usual. I checked on him and he spit up (he has reflux) and since he's a tummy sleeper, he put his face in it and inhaled it up his nose. I felt sooooo bad. I thought what would have happened if i hadn't checked on him??


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

So, so sad. As much as I am exhausted from accomodating our little people's sleep issues, I cannot imagine even making my preschooler CIO, much less a *baby.*

My aerobic instructor mentioned going into her toddler's room in the morning and finding him and the crib covered in vomit and diarhea...he had come down with the stomache flu, during the night. And they lived in a townhouse. How could she not have gone in to him?!

Makes me think of Lady MacBeth.


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jbirdmom* 
My question is, I wonder what kind of impact this really has on our children? They don't remember that far back, so does it really affect them later in life?

Everything is stored in the brain/body. No concious memory doesn't mean a *thing* (except for maybe the emotion or thought is too painful to conciously recall). Even what a baby experiences in utero is formational (there's a great article on this in the current issue of The Mother). The child's brain develops more in infancy than at any other time is his/her life. This stuff (CIO/cosleeping) is hugely formational.

Keep going w/ your instincts and ignoring those relatives.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Does anyone have the link to the study showing the real damage done to the developing brain by CIO? You should post that there so that others can see that CIO is not the answer.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
Does anyone have the link to the study showing the real damage done to the developing brain by CIO? You should post that there so that others can see that CIO is not the answer.

this one? http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Point out to them that the children still wake during the night just as much, they just know not to try and involve their parents in helping them back to sleep. And if they ask for a reference, tell them Ferber says so in his book









Quote:

My question is, I wonder what kind of impact this really has on our children? They don't remember that far back, so does it really affect them later in life?
They wouldn't remember you burning them with cigarette butts, either. But no-one will argue that that's OK. Nor does anyone condone date rape if the rapist uses rohypnol to make sure she won't remember it.


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## BarefootScientist (Jul 24, 2007)

I think the reason everyone thinks CIO is so good for babies and what-not is because in all the baby books, your mainstream pediatrician's handouts, etc. it is presented as the only option and something you have to do for your baby's good. I know when I was pregnant I just assumed we would do that when DS turned 4 mo or so. It wasn't until he was born that I realized, a) He is NOT sleeping way over there in his crib alone, and b) How on EARTH could I leave him crying in another room alone???







No WAY.

When I was pregnant I bought the AAP book Your Baby's First Year, and I was thumbing through it the other day to see what they had to say about my baby now that he is 6 mo. I can't get exact quotes now because of sleeping baby on my lap, but it said things like if your baby is still in your room it's time to move him out so he can get better sleep, and when you put your baby to bed and he starts crying, just keep going in to check on him and reassure him that you're there if he needs you but now it's time for bed, don't pick him up or anything. Um...ok, so how are you there if he needs you??? HE NEEDS YOU!! That's why he's crying so hard. Jeez.

Rant over.


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## MiaMama (Jul 21, 2007)

I agree that sleep is one of the best gifts you can give a baby. My daughter sleeps better than ANY other baby I know IRL. That's because I HELP her by nursing, snuggling, etc instead of expecting her to know how to do it by herself. We learned on about day 4 that she sleeps for 14minutes in the bassinette, and about 14 HOURS in our bed. Now she is the happiest babe I know.


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## averymybaby (Jun 14, 2004)

The best gift you can give is to make your baby believe its parents disappear at night and only love it during the day? Sounds GREAT to me!







:







:


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

"The best gift you can give your child is sleep"???

...Because, you know, sleep is _totally_ unnatural. It's something that absolutely _has_ to be _taught._ It has to be taught methodically and systematically. Without being trained with an expert strategy, your child will _never_ sleep. And they can't _possibly_ know when they're sleepy and when they're not, so you have to teach them that, too.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mlec* 
My aerobic instructor mentioned going into her toddler's room in the morning and finding him and the crib covered in vomit and diarhea...he had come down with the stomache flu, during the night. And they lived in a townhouse. How could she not have gone in to him?!

Yeah, I always think about that happening if I wouldn't go to her. And once she fussed during a nap, and when I went in, she had her little leg stuck between the bars of the crib (she'd pushed the bumper out of the way) and had twisted so she couldn't free herself. Can you imagine if that happened overnight to a CIO baby? shudder.

I really can't imagine how people do CIO without a video monitor at the very least. Even if I truly believed it was good for the baby, I'd be such a nervous wreck wondering what if this time there's something really wrong.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiaMama* 
I agree that sleep is one of the best gifts you can give a baby. My daughter sleeps better than ANY other baby I know IRL. That's because I HELP her by nursing, snuggling, etc instead of expecting her to know how to do it by herself.

yeah, that.


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## threadbey (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoginisarah* 
One night I went in there and he had thrown up. He hadn't had any signs of sickness before that. It ran through my head that if we were a CIO family that he might have slept in his vomit all night. That thought made me really sad and reinforced why it's not a good idea.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mlec* 
My aerobic instructor mentioned going into her toddler's room in the morning and finding him and the crib covered in vomit and diarhea...he had come down with the stomache flu, during the night. And they lived in a townhouse. How could she not have gone in to him?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *cotopaxi* 
Yeah, I always think about that happening if I wouldn't go to her. And once she fussed during a nap, and when I went in, she had her little leg stuck between the bars of the crib (she'd pushed the bumper out of the way) and had twisted so she couldn't free herself. Can you imagine if that happened overnight to a CIO baby? shudder.

I really can't imagine how people do CIO without a video monitor at the very least. Even if I truly believed it was good for the baby, I'd be such a nervous wreck wondering what if this time there's something really wrong.

i wonder about this all the time. i remember reading in some book that you had to leave them alone once you put them to bed, because by that point you had "met all of the baby's needs" for the night and now the baby just needed to learn to sleep. i don't know how anyone who's ever been around a baby can honestly speak about a baby's needs as having been "met" for the night at some specific time on the clock! seriously, ds's diaper might have been dry when i put him down, but 5 minutes later it might not be! ds might have been full when i put him down, but an hour later, he could easily have room for more!

it just doesn't make sense to me.

sure, i get frustrated in the middle of the night sometimes, myself. but i try to remember at all times that even *i* don't usually sleep through the night! i always need the bathroom and sometimes a snack and usually a sip of water... honestly, ds is usually a MUCH better sleeper than i am!!


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

On another board I visit, which is craft oriented and therefore mostly women, and mostly moms, there was a thread today by a woman proclaiming happily that she took the other posters' advice and her 5 month old slept through the night - 11 hours - after "only 40 minutes of crying!" I am so sad for that baby. Obviously not being BF if Mama's happy he went that long. 5 months? 5 MONTHS? So sad.


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## NishaG (Mar 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
On another board I visit, which is craft oriented and therefore mostly women, and mostly moms, there was a thread today by a woman proclaiming happily that she took the other posters' advice and her 5 month old slept through the night - 11 hours - after "only 40 minutes of crying!" I am so sad for that baby. Obviously not being BF if Mama's happy he went that long. 5 months? 5 MONTHS? So sad.

I, too find this so sad. My oldest DS was rocked to sleep and slept in a crib in our room. I would have never just let him cry. I don't even let my kids _stay_ in their crib once they're awake (I have an issue with crib tents) from a nap.

With DS#2, he co-slept from Day 1. (DH still wants to know how I slept in the same position for a year without moving through the night.)

He never cried. Once he turned a year, we would rock him to sleep, put him in his crib, and when he woke during the night, bring him to bed with us.

I really think it's sad that Westernized culture is so far removed from the family unit and what nutures the child, whether it's childbirth, breastfeeding or co-sleeping.

I belong to another board (soulcysters), where a poster posted a poll about breastfeeding. She asked if many mothers felt pressured to nurse. She was surprised that the majority of mothers were actually pressured by family to formula feed!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I have just started posting on another message board and am finding that if anybody suggests that CIO is mean, they get flamed. I can't believe that people can let babies cry and rationalize it by saying "it's so hard on me, but she/he will never remember." Or saying how they go down in the basement so they can't hear the crying.


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## threadbey (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
her 5 month old slept through the night - 11 hours - after "only 40 minutes of crying!" I am so sad for that baby. Obviously not being BF if Mama's happy he went that long.

had to respond - my ds often slept 11 hours or more at 5 months and he has never had a drop of formula (nor any solid food until he was over 7 months). i agree it's sad to make a baby cry so long, but it is possible the mother bfs. i know some bf mothers who nonetheless use cio, sadly.


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## oskie (Mar 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *threadbey* 
i know some bf mothers who nonetheless use cio, sadly.

How?? I leak like crazy when my son cries - how could anybody last through that? It's a basic biological response!

(that was more of a rhetorical question, I'm not doubting that there are peopl who do this...)


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *threadbey* 
my ds often slept 11 hours or more at 5 months and he has never had a drop of formula (nor any solid food until he was over 7 months). i agree it's sad to make a baby cry so long, but it is possible the mother bfs. i know some bf mothers who nonetheless use cio, sadly.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *oskie* 
How?? I leak like crazy when my son cries - how could anybody last through that?

My baby also started going 10-12 hours at night without nursing at around 6 months. I had to start pumping before I went to bed so I don't explode, and it's the first thing I do in the mornings too if I wake up before she does! Believe me there were moments where I was actually sort of HOPING she'd wake up. By now my supply has somewhat adjusted.


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