# Consensual Living Discussion Thread



## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

First let me say I am really excited about writing this thread! I am loving getting this chance to share this philosophy with others, I truly can not imagine living or parenting in any other way. So, before I start let me say thank you for listening, thank you all for being open minded enough to read and consider this, and please let me know of any or your questions or concerns.

This next part I will be borrowing a bit from the CL website, which I advise you go to as it can explain this better than I can, and I will post it at the end of the paragraph. Consensual Living means treating those in my family equally, respectfully, and making sure everyone's feelings and needs are heard and honored. It also means that when problems arise we all try to work together toward a solution that meets everyone's needs. Next I will list a few key precepts that are central to CL:

*Equality

*Trust: It is very important to create a enviroment in your household where everybody feels like they're feelings and needs are valued, heard, and will be addressed. It is also very important to keep in mind that we are all doing the best we can to get our needs met with what tools we have in whatever given situation. Most of the time what we see as "bad behavior", "disrespect", "acting foolishly".... this is just our own perception of the situation and it really has nothing to do with the other party.

*Self - Determination: I believe it is important to give appropriate information so that we can make the best decision suitable for us.

Respectful communication is also very important in the CL household, personally I think CL and NVC go very nicely together. Respectful communication is that in which everyone's feelings and needs are heard, and valued, and it can be a extremely helpful tool in conflict resolution.

http://www.consensual-living.com/Essay2.htm

http://consensualliving.wordpress.com/


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

I wanted to add some more to my OP, so firstly let me say we are not 100% CL, in fact I don't think I personally know of anyone that is. Our main issues here are food and toys; we have MANY food allergies, and I insist on only buying either recycled, wooden, or secondhand toys for enviromental reasons. My kids aren't always happy about this, but I don't believe CL is about making everyone happy all the time because that's just not realistic; so we talk about why we have these rules, I empathize with their feelings, and we try to find a suitable alternative if the issue is that important to them.

Next, I wanted to talk about how to make CL work for your household. Since each family has different values they choose to live by I can't give any concrete "what to do" sort of plan, I have found it's mostly a case by case kind of thing. Here is what I am willing to share that has worked for us:

*Always focus on getting your own cup filled first. You can't give what you don't already have.

*Make note of your own personal triggers, and try to dig into them and turn them into learning opportunities.

*NVC

*Examine your need for control. Whenever you feel you "need" to control something or someone ask yourself why, how would this benefit you, how would this benefit your family, what might the cons be...... I have found it very helpful to come up with a list of at least 10 ways I can handle this situation, just to open my mind up to the possibilites. After all this if you still feel the "need" to assert some control in the situation try to work together with your family to come up with a compromise everyone can live with.

*Playful parenting

Part III to come sometime tomorrow


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for sharing. When we encourage bonding and relationship it is not in order to make kids more compliant but to teach them how to be in a relationship with people and other life skills. I find that Ross Greene's Collaborative problem solving is really great in helping parents do the 'HOW' of working with , consensual approaches


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm excited about this thread. I would describe our family as making baby steps towards this. Our biggest issues include sleep and sibling fighting. I read Ross Greene's book when my eldest really hadn't gotten verbal enough for it to work for our family, but it's been on my reread list for a while. I hope to see others join this thread!


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

I suggest the latest editions of Ross Greene's books as he is always fine tuning the approach. For non-verbal kids he suggests using pictures, google pictures and teaching cps vocab. My favorite is ' lost at school ' - great for both parents and teachers. I think if we are chatting with our kids focusing on we listening and directing conversations with dialog questions that promote perspective taking, identifying concerns , coming to an understanding that living is inherently ' consensual we are really helping kids


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I read this post last night, and today had a chat with my 2.75 year old about how to make tooth brushing more palatable for her. She suggested using more tooth paste, I said cool, we'll do squeeze the toothpaste three times while I brush your teeth, and it was the first non-screaming tooth-brushing we've had in recent memory. Guess I should read some more on this  Thanks for the thread and the links.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

newmamalizzy: That's great! I truly believe in most cases, and with a little bit of guidance, kids really do know what is best for them. I think we need to teach children to listen to and respect their inner authentic voice, that will keep them on the right path more than almost anything else in life.

I love Ross Greene's book! It really helped me see a key part of the problem solving process that I was forgetting, and it's pretty simple to use.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Subbing to come back and read and ask some follow up questions...


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Here's the part III I've been meaning to get to. So, in this part I will address some of the misconceptions and concerns I have heard about CL. So, here are a few I've heard:

"I don't see how CL would work for families with more than one child."

I will admit CL is more challenging the bigger your family is, but I think this is kind of a given with everything when you have a bigger family. I would say taking care of yourself, conflict resolution, and a commitment to this kind of lifestyle are really the keys to making CL work with a bigger family.

"CL only works for easier kids."

I can definitely say with the upmost confidence that this is not true! My dd is highly sensitive and is a aspie, my ds is spirited, and they both wear me completely out on a regular basis. I don't think I could ever describe either of them as "easy kids". I have found that CL works the best for them, all other forms of discipline we tried using just seemed to stress everybody out.

"My partner doesn't agree with CL."

Well, neither does mine. My dh says he agrees with CL in theory, but he has no idea how it can work practically in real life. Since I am absolutely commited to this lifestyle, and dh is really not that into discipline at all, we have agreed that I take full reign over any discipline issues. Whenever we have a issue dh comes to me and lets me know what is going on, then I empathsize with him, and we try to find some middle ground everyone can live with.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Ok, I'm back and want to first say that the lack of TCS parents is part of why I started this whole "alternative" GD philosophies stuff in the first place. I've never considered myself TCS...ok, wait...first question....

Is CL the same as TCS?

A while back the forum was fairly dominated by folks who identified as TCS. While I found myself butting heads with a lot of the advice, which often felt differentiated by semantics or totally impractical, I loved having that side of things to help stretch my thought process.

So how does CL look at things like the family budget? Does a child have equal say? What about thinks like television and video games? What about food? I have just exposed what I suppose are my "control issues" - they are some of the things that I just never felt comfortable not controlling in some way. Now for us, the TV control thing went fine - I expressed what I wanted to see and why, suggested a solution that I thought would fit with DC's needs and personality and it's been working for 5 years. Food...that's another thing. I find the food thing frustrating because I like to buy sweets and treats and etc. but I feel like the only one in the family who can savor them for the shopping term. I'd be fine with DC eating their portion of treats up early in the week but then I feel like I get complaints over "having nothing to eat". DC and I just talked about that yesterday because I did a big shopping trip and won't need to go to the store for probably two weeks. We'll see how that goes. So what does CL say about something like that?


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

No, CL and TCS are not the same thing. TCS is about living consensually mainly with children, while CL is about aiming for consensuality in ALL of your relationships/interactions with others.

Family budget wise, we have given our kids a allowance to do what they will with, and it has the added bonus of teaching them about money management too. We do insist that they search out toys that are recycled, wooden, small business, or secondhand for enviromental reasons; and also get food treats that nobody is allergic to for health reasons.

TV is not a big issue for us, so we have given up trying to control it. We have a lot of fun watching programs with the kids, finding out about their interests, and talking about anything surprising that may come up. We do insist on having no shows with lots of language or violence, and that's because non-violence is one really big core value we have here. This works for us because we are radical unschoolers, but I can understand how this situation may not work out for other whose beliefs are not in line with this lifestyle.

Food is a big issue for us. Dd and I have a ton of food allergies, but thankfully she is used to it, and she knows how negatively the food affects her so there is not much issue with her. Ds and dh are the big complainers in this arena. Dh refuses to look into any of his likely food issues, and he insists that he doesn't like any of the allergen friendly food we have, so he has his own stash of food. Ds is not affected by food as much as the girls in the house are, except for the fact that we very recently figured out any type of refined sugar makes him really crazy! So, we have banned all refined sugar, and currently ds is rebelling by telling us that none of the food in the house "tastes right". It's a long crazy saga.........

We aim for everyone to have equal say here. When we need to make a new rule we try to do it based on our core values, and we also try to come up with a way that will meet everyone's needs.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Ok...for the purposes of understanding what differentiates CL from just sort of mainstream GD - I'd like to use the example of the allowance. Allowance is not especially unique and then adding some restrictions of reused, locally sourced, wooden, this seems fairly restrictive to me. I get that it is within NFL and fitting with your values but I feel like many other families would say the same about whatever their restrictions are. So, how is this unique? Is it because you as a family have decided on your core values?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not quite getting what sets this apart from just being a regular old GD parent.

With us, for TV for instance, I think DC gets the values I put forth and I think relates to them and tends to agree that they are for the best. The solution was no TV at all from M-Th and then unlimited from Fri evening to Sunday. We also restrict shows...though DC isn't all that aware of that (we watch TV off the computer and DH puts all the content on the computer). I don't know, again, I'm thinking how is that so different?

And maybe it isn't. Or maybe it is and like with the TCS folks, I'll be dense and take forever to understand the significance of the difference. nk

I'm thinking of the way we restrict TV content. DH's big thing is he doesn't want any commercials in our home. It's "his thing". I think he likes that it's his thing. He once joked that it was his crowing achievment as a parent. I happen to agree with him and I'm sure with frequent talks and etc. DC would agree...but part of that feels wrong to me. I can't explain it. I think I was allowed to just kind of develop my own morals out in the world. My parents didn't actively coach me. I think I have a preference for that way of doing things.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

And this is really interesting to me that after letting all that TCS stuff settle in that maybe it was the "family values" thing that turned me off. I know it seems really natural for some folks to actively teach and encourage their kids to share their values but I don't have that instinct.

Can you share some stories or experiences (or predictions) about what you will do when you do not all share the same core values? I'm thinking that maybe this is the confusing bit for me...


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Interesting that you mention TCS folks. I found that when they discuss issues amongst themselves , they are more balanced but when in the company of UP or GD parents they take kid's autononmy to an extreme. Alfie Kohn discusses this with regard to education - the flaws of libertarian education which can be applied to parenting are the lack of community and cooperation and parents and teachers playing an important role as guides by the side *http://tinyurl.com/aabzl94 .*

I was wondering if CL folks see value in CL in itself - community and cooperation or just a way to solve problems ?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mary934*
> 
> I was wondering if CL folks see value in CL in itself - community and cooperation or just a way to solve problems ?


From what I've learned about Mittsy as we've been discussing this I would guess that CL is far more than a problem solving approach. I'll check that link - I am very interested in AK in the educational setting.

Mary, we are looking for someone able to make a 101 type guide to some of these philosophies that contains a brief description (and then we will include the discussion thread link and off-site sources). Is this something that you would feel up to the task of doing?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mary934*
> 
> Interesting that you mention TCS folks. I found that when they discuss issues amongst themselves , they are more balanced but when in the company of UP or GD parents they take kid's autononmy to an extreme.


Yes, some of my responses here are I'm sure somewhat in reaction to not being quite finished with the TCS debate. ;-) Can you describe the difference and relationship between TCS and CL from your experience? You seem to be a big fan of CL, would you like to talk about what CL means to you and how you practice it in your life?

What I'm focused on from Mittsy's writing is that shared core values seem somewhat key here. I can really see how something like CL would work if a family has that really works on that together.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

IdentityCrisisMama: Yes, enviromentalism is a core value for us. I think part of what CL different from regular GD is the core family values, but the other more important difference is the intent of the discipline. With regular GD the intent of discipline is usually to teach a lesson, whereas with CL the intent of discipline is normally to bring the other person aware of a issue and work together to find a mutually agreeable solution.

If my kids grow up to not share our values I would like to think I'll be ok with that. Between my family, in-laws, friends, and my dh I have quite a bit of experience with getting along with people who don't share my personal values.

mary934: I do see value as CL itself. We know a number of families who also do CL, and we try to get together monthly for empathy circles or social gatherings, and we also get together for 2-3 community camping trips. It's a great help for us on this journey.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> 
> IdentityCrisisMama: Yes, enviromentalism is a core value for us.


What would happen in a CL philosophy if your children did not share your environmentalism value to the same extent as you and/or had a different opinion about how to express that value?

Quote:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> ...


Interesting! I will admit that as much as I relate to the ideas that discipline is about "teaching" or is about "finding ways to work together" it is often, realistically, about....I suppose behavior for us.


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> What would happen in a CL philosophy if your children did not share your environmentalism value to the same extent as you and/or had a different opinion about how to express that value?


I can't speak for Mittxy, but before I became a mother, I was a vegan and involved in animal rights activism. Of course I'd raise my kids vegan. For the first couple years of my eldest's life, that worked. And then, more and more she shunned the meals I prepared. Even as a toddler she would say things like, "I eat animals!" Eventually, I gained a whole lot more compassion for people who were sympathetic to animal rights but felt they couldn't do a vegan lifestyle and decided to put my daughter first. She started eating meat, and I eventually followed. I still try to get pastured, organic meat, but I will buy her other kinds, too. We're about to start an adventure into raising chickens for eggs and meat. I am so glad that I did not try to impose my values on my child.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

IdentityCrisisMama: For example, when my kids find a toy they would like to get I usually point out that it's not recycled/wooden/small business and then ask them if they would be willing to find a similar alternative toy that is. If they say yes then terrific, but if they say no and would like to get the toy that's fine too because it's their money and they can spend it as they see fit.

revolting: What a great example! I am a ethical vegan too, and my kids have recently brought up to me that they would like to start eating meat and eggs again. I am not comfortable buying or preparing meat, but thankfully dh is definitely a carnivore so the kids share dad's meals when they feel like eating meat. I have discussed with them my issue with eggs and now we are looking for a small family farm that has no roosters, cage free hens.... and then we will start getting eggs again.


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

I'd like to talk about school attendance. My daughter most days likes to go to school. We've talked on and off about homeschooling as an option, but generally speaking, she wants to stay in school to have more time with friends. About once every week or two, she will adamantly refuse to go. We are already past the limit the school allows for missed days of school, and I'm getting nervous. Any ideas?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Revolting,

Do you want to have this discussion specifically within the umbrella of Consensual Living or would you like to discuss this in the general GD forum? Another interesting exercise (if you want to be the guinnea pig) would be to open this discussion to the community and ask for answers specific to various philosophies.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revolting*
> 
> I'd like to talk about school attendance. My daughter most days likes to go to school. We've talked on and off about homeschooling as an option, but generally speaking, she wants to stay in school to have more time with friends. About once every week or two, she will adamantly refuse to go. We are already past the limit the school allows for missed days of school, and I'm getting nervous. Any ideas?


I am glad you brought up school.

A little OT, but there are a number of USers on the USing forum who are more CL than USy

Here is my take and I consider us soft-core CL:

You daughter has the choice to HS and she has the choice to go to school. Whichever one she chooses, she should commit to in good faith. She also has to understand that actions have consequences for the whole family. If you live in an area where attendance is strictly monitored, she really needs to commit to going or she needs to pursue an alternate arrangement - as it is not fair for you to get in trouble over her truancy.

I understand the desire to skip school. Getting at the root of why she wants to skip may help curb the situation (you might be able to problem solve solutions) - or not. Assuming her grades are acceptable, I would discuss with how many times she can do this without there being consequences - either consequences of falling behind, truancy, etc. Off the top of my head, a kid wanting to skip a day every 2 weeks would send up flags for me; once a month would not (and might just give a child the control they desire over their week, as well as time to de-stress).

ETA: okay, I just read your siggy and she is younger that I thought. I will let the above stand as ideas in general. I would be inclined to let a 5 or 6 year old who wanted to skip, skip. Extra mommy time at that age is probably more beneficial than a day is school when she does not want to be there. Just don't get yourself in trouble over truancy.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revolting*
> 
> I'd like to talk about school attendance. My daughter most days likes to go to school. We've talked on and off about homeschooling as an option, but generally speaking, she wants to stay in school to have more time with friends. About once every week or two, she will adamantly refuse to go. We are already past the limit the school allows for missed days of school, and I'm getting nervous. Any ideas?


I'm just curious, do you know why she refuses to go to school? What type of school does she attend? I'm wondering if a different type of school may be a better fit for her. I don't really know what else to say because my kids have never been to or really shown any serious interest in school, sorry!


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

Identity crises mama: I'd like to see it done under the framework of consensual living. A lot of parents would either force their kids to go to school or overrule their kid's decision to attend school or stay in their current school if their behavior had gotten to this point. I'd really like, at least initially, to see if there are others who have found a way to work out a situation like this with their young kid.

She's in the local public school, which is full-day, academic kindy that sends homework home.







I've asked her if she'd like to change schools, but she emphatically dislikes the idea: the only reason she wants to go to school is to spend the whole day with her best friends. According to her, what they do in school is boring and stupid; she doesn't like to get ready to go; she doesn't like the threat of punishment at school; she doesn't like to line up at school; she thinks the teacher doesn't listen to her; she thinks it's unfair that her younger brother gets to do things when she's away at school; she wants more time to do archery, read, do art and craft projects, and play; and she misses home. (I would add that she is a night owl and that makes getting ready for school hard; that she's pretty precocious academically and that makes school work pretty dull; the adult-to-child ratio is huge and it's hard to get adult attention.) We've talked outside of the moment about what we should do when she refuses to go to school. She says that when she doesn't want to go to school, she wants me to remind her of how much fun she has sitting next to her friends and whispering to them, but when I do that in the morning, she finds it less than motivating. We have also done sending notes and surprises with her to school, working with the administration to better tailor her education tailor her education and discipline to her needs (the school thinks that as long as I send the message that attending school is her choice, she will never acclimate to school and that it's very important for bright kids to sit through lessons they already know, since that's part of being in school







), different routines to limit the stress of getting ready to go, trying to keep as many of the fun activities and outings I do with her brother at times when she could also participate, but it continues to be a problem. I'd love a list of more suggestions that I could discuss with my six year old about how we could better deal with the situation.


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi,

I think you can work on her late nights and being tired by resetting her biological clock with Melatonin

If being with friends is really the only thing that matters maybe if she has something to share with them - a joke or a story for days when she does not feel into it

I am not one for rewards but if they are self -determined - meaning she decides that she wants some extrinsic incentive to help her get to school , she can come up with something that might help her - her goal is to get to school , the SD reward is to help her get there.

the morning schedule shoud be quite limited - her bag packed the night before by you if needed , eat a sandwich on the way out etc


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

revolting, this is a wild idea-- find out how many friends she has that is pulling her to attend a school she mostly hates. If it's only 2 or so, give the parents a call. How do they feel about the school? Have they been considering changing schools or homeschooling? You never know until you ask....


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

revolting: Can you introduce your daughter to the homeschooling community in your area? I would talk to her about classes she can take, co-ops she could participate in, 4-H or homeschool scouting groups. Also, she would probably like some reassurance that she will still get to see her school friends if she decides to be homeschooled, so may'be talking to her about setting up playdates or sleepovers with her school friends.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

I could use some perspective and advice from other cl mamas on the issue of kids watching troublesome tv shows. My kids have recently started watching Spongebob Squarepants, which I personally don't like at all because of the language and violence, but the real issue I'm having is since they have started watching this show I'm seeing a real upsurge of name calling and hitting in our house. We have had numerous discussions about these behaviors and how hurtful they are, but nothing has changed at all. The only option I can really see at this point is blocking Spongebob, but that seems like punishment to me and of course I'd really rather not go that route.....

Help!


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)




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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

TV , hitting and bad language are behaviors. If we take a CPS - collaborative problem solving perspective behaviors are merely symptoms of lagging skills and unmet concerns. Talking about behaviors won't solve the underlying problem. So we need maybe to do some cps with each kid seperately and then facilitate cps between them

TV - Mom: I have noticed since you have been watching the xx TV show , there is a lot more bad language , hitting and fighting in the home , what's up


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

mary934: Thanks! For some reason I always forget about cps, I should do something about that.

I wanted to give a little update on us regarding the situation I needed help with. We have all agreed to stop watching the tv show in question for a bit as dd seems to be really sensitive to some of the things portrayed in it. To help dd with the name calling we have been scheduling regular music making sessions, and other games, where we shout out whatever name comes to mind just for fun.If I hear name calling outside of these games I usually pull her aside and let her vent on me while I translate her tirade into nvc feelings and needs that we can work with. The hitting has completely stopped, now when anybody feels like hitting we call a family pillow fight or a playful wrestling match.


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## LunaLady (Dec 28, 2010)

Can anyone give me some ideas on how this works with a toddler? My son is almost 18 months and he has started doing some major screaming tantrums and hitting and/or throwing objects at me. For now I have been ignoring it and if he hits me more than once I say, "We don't hit."


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

We are quite good at collaborating with babies and toddlers by be responsive to their cues. If they are not verbal and can't articulate their concerns , we can try make suggestions about what is bothering them , maybe use pictures , put our concerns on the table and then suggest solutions , maybe in pictures etc. This must be done out of the moment - the focus is not on behavior bit on the concerns.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

So, Mittsy, do you think the activities you are doing are what is helping or is it the decision to not watch that show?

We haven't really had to struggle with hitting or language but one thing that I feel worked well with language is to just talk about appropriate settings for different types of language. I don't consider "bad language" to be a problem but more a problem if used in the wrong setting. That has seemed to work for my older child. She knows I don't mind her using it, knows that it really offends others, knows that it's not allowed in school and etc. I feel like that took some of the charge out of it.

Not sure if this is CL or not though.

Also, I've seen a few recommendations for outlets for hitting as a solution of hitting at MDC. I thought that sort of cathartic therapy was frowned upon lately. We bypassed any of that because of some articles I had read when DC was young (that are now perhaps dated?) and I feel like at least for her I think it was a good fit.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

LunaLady: We take a pretty playful approach to tantrums. For screaming we do things like pretend we are gorillas banging our chests and calling, getting into a cat yoga pose and yowling and hissing, screaming into pillows, pretending we are a very loud fire alarm going off, getting into a snake yoga pose and hissing, making music or drumming and just yelling out whatever comes to mind. For hitting and throwing we bring out a special basket of soft toys and let the kids at it, or sometimes we do a family pillow fight.

IdentityCrisisMama: I think both the activities and not watching that show for now are helping. She has told me that she is having a hard time dealing with her "yucky feelings", so I've been trying to help her with that by reading books, doing eft, and by doing validation and showing her some calming techniques. We don't mind bad language at all, but the issue we were having is that dd was calling ds and other kids things like "stupid star", "idiot", "I'm going to kick your butt" when she was getting mad and it was really hurting their feelings.

I actually agree with doing things to physically work through your anger like throwing or hitting toys. I think the child innately knows what they need to do to work through their anger but it just our job as parents to redirect those behaviors to a harmless outlet.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

In response to LunaLady, I think screaming tantrums are different (on the level of being problematic or not) than hitting and/or throwing things at someone. Meaning that I think the latter situations require some sort of intervention, just taking the responsibility to keep yourself safe and/or protect others from physical violation, and to protect the upset toddler from inflicting harm, too. I think it's important to protect a child from the hurt he'll carry from having hurt someone else, or just to acknowledge regret (take the situation seriously) the times we don't get there in time to offer that protection.

If a "screaming tantrum" does not involve physical acting out, then it wouldn't call for that physical limit/protection, but otherwise I think the approach to the child in the situation would be the same. And I think the response is generally about recognizing what is going on and acknowledging the feelings being expressed. Contingent communication would be conveying that understanding (empathy) and showing acceptance of the feelings (validation or acknowledgment.)

Staying close and supportive while those feelings are expressed would be my goal for a toddler who is having some "major screaming tantrums" and generally the physical limit (putting your hand on the toy he wants to throw, or taking measures to keep yourself safe from kicking/hitting/biting as needed) in combination with that same closeness & support will facilitate emotional release in those times when he began to "act out" his overwhelm in physical aggression. Once the feelings are flowing, I think you are in a good place because he is doing what he needs to do.

Responding playfully can be a fine thing, too. Laughter is a release just as tears are.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> 
> I could use some perspective and advice from other cl mamas on the issue of kids watching troublesome tv shows. My kids have recently started watching Spongebob Squarepants, which I personally don't like at all because of the language and violence, but the real issue I'm having is since they have started watching this show I'm seeing a real upsurge of name calling and hitting in our house. We have had numerous discussions about these behaviors and how hurtful they are, but nothing has changed at all. The only option I can really see at this point is blocking Spongebob, but that seems like punishment to me and of course I'd really rather not go that route.....
> 
> Help!


Reading this & the resulting conversation was interesting for me, (I haven't been to this site for awhile), because I got to think about an issue and then mentally frame it in the CL context, which was a little tricky for me!

That's only because I haven't been too preoccupied with or mindful about "CL or not" when proceeding in life, for awhile. But I think CL values/practices greatly influenced my approach to parenting (and for awhile I actually did try to make choices or respond based on referring to a CL framework.)

So it was just a little tricky for me to think about. Like, would my kids (or at least my oldest child) have the opportunity to start watching Spongebob in the first place (or whatever substitute show might introduce something I found problematic)? And if not, "is that CL"? And if this situation were actually happening for me, would any of my responses "fit" CL?

But overall, I know that once I got past my initial reactions & feelings of displeasure (with a focus on Spongebob Squarepants as being the source of the problems I'm observing), my typical practice would be to identify my feelings as being mine (or as indicating something about me--something I am not liking because of some fear it triggers in me, etc.), and that I likely would want to respond to the issue by increasing connection. So rather than setting limits or trying to make rules to manage viewing habits, I might specifically offer connection instead, with the belief that resolution is likely to come naturally.

It sounds like you may have done this, actively substituting more connection for the time spent with the show.

I do, too, think it's important to keep reminding ourselves that kids will "work out" (or "play about"!) the things that are bothering them, including having been exposed to edginess, confusing or frightening attitudes/dynamics, mean words, and power-over dynamics. Exposure to scornful, sarcastic, mocking or mildly belittling language, tones or exchanges is likely going to "come out" or get expressed in a child's play & relationships. Ultimately, this is a good thing. (Though it's usually upsetting to witness it, particularly between children.) But it only splashes out because it's in there in the first place, making the child feel off-track because she feels confused, or unhappy.

They have the good instinct to heal their hurts & the things that cause little "blips" for them inside. And play is how they do it.

So I think your focus on recognizing when she has some of that work to do/stuff to express, and taking her aside so that YOU are the one it gets "splashed on," is really constructive. Being able to "translate" what you hear likely helps you to show empathy & acceptance for what you're hearing, which means you're likely staying warm and connected, which helps her.

I really think serving that function (being the container that "holds" for her what she has trouble containing, and reflecting it so she can "have" or see herself & can enter a process of relating to what she sees, making decisions about it, and resolving it) is THE task. Even more than any "processing" we do...reflecting them and really receiving them in that active way is the function we serve. Because it facilitates their individual processes.

Anyway, cool.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revolting*
> 
> I'd like to talk about school attendance. My daughter most days likes to go to school. We've talked on and off about homeschooling as an option, but generally speaking, she wants to stay in school to have more time with friends. About once every week or two, she will adamantly refuse to go. We are already past the limit the school allows for missed days of school, and I'm getting nervous. Any ideas?


My daughter hasn't expressed clear unwillingness to go to school in a long while, but she actually did this morning! In the past when this has come up (and also today when it came up!) my focus has been listening to her feelings with real acceptance (rather than a focus on any particular outcome.)

In general, I imagine I would want the outcome to be "resolution" of the issue with her going on to school, and I probably have some fear about "what if?" it doesn't resolve, but my approach is to be present in the moment rather than thinking about the immediate future (her "working through it" and "ultimately going to school.") The effect is that I am not pushing against or resisting her feelings, so there is a lot of space for just exactly how she's feeling and what she has to express about it. (This is the same when she has negative stuff to say ABOUT some other person, too.)

I focus on presence & really hearing/understanding accurately, rather than on "doing" anything to get something to happen. And looking back, I can observe that she's never actually stayed home at any of these times (nor have I ever "made her" go to school.) I think inside I'm ultimately open. I am not closed to the possibility of a so-called mental health day (or days) even though at some point the issue of missing too many days becomes a factor, so as a result I am not tightly wedded to one absolute outcome of her going to school. But the truth is, I am not thinking "yes" or "no" at all; I'm not engaging her adamant assertion (of not going to school today) on the level of its validity ("will" I grant it? "can" I grant it? what should I do/how should I respond?) at all. I think this fact is what helps most.

I know, too, that getting there is not a matter of trying. It's a matter of congruence....just bringing my actual feelings & reactions (tension, irritation, fear, annoyance, helplessness....) into awareness so they are part of my conscious experience (and thus, I am congruent.) I tolerate or "contain" them, and in the process I find that I'm able to make space for my child's experience.

THEN, something happens inside her. My presence (my lack of opposition) facilitates a process in her. (She frequently takes care of the "collaborative problem-solving" steps all on her own, lol! But this actually makes sense, considering how my own process is typically internal--a matter of experiencing my own feelings that results in emotional resolution and the ability to move on. And these mornings always have involved the "problem" of feelings....so often they "just" need to be felt: allowed, and experienced.)

Looking back, the same thing has happened every time. (She has reached some kind of internal resolution and just gets ready for school.) I think that "space" for her feelings is THE thing.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Also, I've seen a few recommendations for outlets for hitting as a solution of hitting at MDC. I thought that sort of cathartic therapy was frowned upon lately. We bypassed any of that because of some articles I had read when DC was young (that are now perhaps dated?) and I feel like at least for her I think it was a good fit.


Do you have a link or source for articles against cathartic therapy? I read something recently, and it really resonated with me, but I lost the source.


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

Okay, wise mamas. Help me figure out how to handle this situation. When my first child was born, I was unmarried but in a committed relationship. We decided to hyphenate, but to keep the name from getting too long, we decided against a middle name. Starting around 3.5, she hated not having a middle name. For the last couple of years, she's consistently used a middle name but it's not her legal name, so her school refuses to recognize it. We've talked about legally changing it, so the school would. After using it for more than a third of her life, to us it really feels like her middle name.

However, for the last six months, she also has talked about wanting to drop my husband's last name from her name. She doesn't like being the only kid in her class with a hyphenated last name (which is how this middle name business started: not liking being the only kid without a last name), and she prefers my last name to his. (For the record, I'm married but didn't hyphenate or change my name.) This definitely hurts my husband's feelings (and will probably hurt his family of origin's feelings when we already have a rocky relationship with them); she still uses the hyphenated name; and we worry that the changed last name won't stick like her middle name (though it might). She doesn't like the idea of taking my husband's last name, because she feels closer to me (the primary caregiver) and my parents (who she adores). My daughter would like to change her name as soon as possible. I would really prefer getting it done within the next 10.5 months, so she remains young enough that she doesn't have to go to court for the name change. (She might want to go, but I definitely prefer having the option of not taking her if she doesn't want to go.) I really really don't want to go through a name changing process more than once. Should I change her name, including the last name? Should I try to push her to take my partner's last name instead? (I'd be a bit disappointed, but I think I could take it in stride more than he could.) Should we wait? Any advice with getting my partner's support?


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## Queermama (Jan 7, 2011)

What does GD and TCS mean?


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

*GD = gentle discipline *

*TCS - take children seriously - a libertarian approach to parenting and education.*

Alfie Kohn talks about the ' Trouble of Pure Freedom ' and the focus on the individual kid's learning , and the lack of community - cooperative learning, that characterize libertarian schooling.

The libertarian worldview sees adult involvement as an authoritarian restriction of personal autonomy. Total autonomy is not developmentally appropriate . Kids need guidance and many of them need structure at the same time that they need the opportunity to learn how to make good decisions.

The same criticsm holds for parenting the TCS way.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Revolting - I have experience on the subject of name changing, and thought I would share what has worked for us. Not exactly CL (or anything else), but it feels right.

My DD has always wanted to change her name. Long story, but at 4, I had to change her name for safety reasons, in a major domestic violence situation. Although she helped choose her new name, she has never been satisfied with it, and has always wanted to go back to the original name. I personally love her current name (of course I do, I chose it!) and am sorry she doesn't like it (I like her original name too - I chose it also, of course!). But I decided this is an adult choice, not a child's, to make. I fully support her in making this change when she turns 18 (in 3 weeks!).

In my mind, this is nearly as permanent a decision as a tattoo. I am pretty heavily tattooed, and am happy with my choices. But it is not a decision for a child. My children are welcome to make this decision as adults, but while they are kids, I am saying no. ElderSon, at 30, has a mess of tattoos himself, and YoungSon, at 16, has plans for his tattoo as soon as he can. But he is pretty OK with waiting.

I am happy to discuss these limits with my kids - I have solid, sound reasons for my choices. I am aware of their plans, and they both have good reasons for their choices. These are the only subjects I can think of that I have ever played the Parent Trump Card. Even when the issue was as serious as smoking pot a couple years ago, my parenting style is very similar to collaborative problem solving, very much based on CL types of attitudes and values. But I feel comfortable to say, in these limited circumstances, "As an adult, I have more experience than you do. Your feelings are perfectly valid, and I understand why you want to act on them. But for now, I am making this decision for you".

The post about revolting's DD sounds like a kid wanting to change her name to fit in with her friends. It sounds like she has changed her mind a couple times - and I might expect her to change her preference again, as her tastes mature. Many kids go through stages of hating their names. From my perspective, that is OK. A name is a gift from a parent - it may well be that she will eventually appreciate the thought that went into your original decision.


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