# Watching others discipline. What would you do?



## Gene (Oct 22, 2005)

In my job, I see lots of parents and kids. Today, a mom lightly smacked her 6yo son's head when he was acting out. I didn't say anything (they were leaving my office). And since I'm in a position of power (and am legally required to report abuse), this was a judgement call on my part. At what point do y'all consider it "abuse"?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I would NOT turn that in as abuse...nor would I a spanking, slapping or anything of the like. Weather it's right or wrong parents who spank do NOT deserve to lose their DC forever, and I would ONLY call if I felt that exact thing happening (permanantly losing their DC) was in the best interests of the child. Because, with CPS, it's a real possibility.


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

I don't consider that abuse...more like ineffective parenting. And I think reporting that as abuse would do two things...

1)Cause a lot of havoc for a family that might not parent the way you do or would but still loves their childern and does what is best for them.

2)Take time and attention away from situations where real abuse is occuring. There are only so many people out there to investigate allegations of abuse. If they are looking into a light smack on the head is there a child being beaten with a broomstick getting over looked?

I think not reporting it was the right choice. If they came in again and the mother was the same way you might want to say something about it to her.

Casey


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

I would frame your office as a place that is not for hitting, where instead you all get the opportunity to try new and different things. (I'm assuming you're a counselor of some type???) Whether or not you say that to her in front of the son is your call. You don't want to shame her 'cause that usually doesn't result in much trust, but you also want the son to feel what it's like to have a boundary set and have someone stand up for his worth. Your call...

I would also see it as an opportunity to talk with her about "habits" that might not be accomplishing what she wants them to -- i.e. hitting as one of those. Use it as a way to talk about what she _is_ trying to accomplish, what she wants for her son and her family. We all have dreams and hopes, no matter how off base we are. I say try to access those before you pull the abuse card.

I also know that a slap on the back of the head would not be considered abuse by DSS. If in doubt, you can call DSS and run a "hypothetical" by them. They'll do this with professionals, where as they won't with us mere mortals.









Good luck...!


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:

I would NOT turn that in as abuse...nor would I a spanking, slapping or anything of the like. Weather it's right or wrong parents who spank do NOT deserve to lose their DC forever, and I would ONLY call if I felt that exact thing happening (permanantly losing their DC) was in the best interests of the child. Because, with CPS, it's a real possibility
.

Oh that'll teach me for not reading replies first...

I agree completely.

Casey


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I wouldn't turn it in either, but I would look for an opportunity to recommend resources in the community. I would think that people who are at the hospital because they have very ill people in their family and are going through the most stressful times of their lives. When we used to spank, it was during these overwhelming times of crisis when the spanking or "tacky parenting" would become more prevelant. I think that as a physician, you could recognize the extreme stress that families are under and it would be within your scope (I think) to be able to recommend things. I can think of a lot of community resources we have here for support of people going through illnesses....I would have a flyer or handout with resources for dealing with the stress and keeping parenting positive during hard times. Here in our town we have this whole foundation that supports people with chronic illnesses and their caregivers with all kinds of free classes from parenting, to yoga, to dealing with grief. I would let the families know about services that are available like this.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

A little OT . . .

Seems as if you'd be free to say something about treatment like that, even though it's not something you'd report. And perhaps your position of power would increase the power of your words against treating a child poorly. (I'm not suggesting you threaten or manipulate through fear . . . just that you're in a good position that parents might listen to you.) You might also want to have info that parents can read about the detrimental effects of hitting a child.


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## Gene (Oct 22, 2005)

Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gene*
Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

My baby hasn't ever been to a Dr. - but with my 1st 3, no...never mentioned at all.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

Even some of the most prospanking people think its wrong to hit someone in the head.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gene*
Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

Mine just did at the 2-yr visit, she asked how things were going and I said, you know, the usual toddler stuff, but we're handling it fine and I think she mentioned something about time outs as a safe alternative to some other approaches, so I assured her we're WAY into GD and it was not a concern, but appreciated the effort.









If I do remember correctly, the AAP has a statement against spanking; that would likely be easy to print out and have available for people, if you're thinking of going in that direction. Lemme see if I can find it...

yup - here it is: AAP statement

I'm not entirely sure of your position (you're a Ped, I'm guessing, based on your question above), but I think this would be easy enough to duplicate and have this handy, along with maybe a couple other web pages printed out from say, the natural chidl project or something like that...I do recall that at every well-child visit, my office would hand out developmental stuff, so maybe this would be a good one to hand out starting around 12 months and do it through 3 or 4 years old or so - like every well visit, kind of drive the point home









HTH.


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

Hi,

I am new to this group and thought I would give my reply a whirl. How do I find out about the abreviations DD, DS and what that all means?

Regarding this topic, I would speak up. Gently and firmly state that people are not for hitting. Hitting creates shame, punishment, and ill will. I consider slapping, spanking, etc. abuse. I consider yelling abuse. These abuses affect a person's psyche, physicality, emotionality, etc. I am senstive to all of these things and life long results that accumulate. I am also human so here is what I have done and here is what has helped me.

I was in a sports store with my husband and son when another little boy took a ball from my son. My son (22 months at the time) asked for the ball back. The boy (probably 5) pretended to throw the ball (psyched him out) then accidentally hit my son on the nose with the ball. The boy's father wacked him pretty hard and called him something in a foreign language. My husband shielded my son. I stood by the little boy, put my arm around him and said, please do not hit your son because that is how he learns to hurt other people. The man became very calm and very quiet. I too, being a previous teacher, thought this is reportable and I also have compassion for the wounds that are being passed down from generation to generation, so I decided to speak up and hopefully that helped.

I did that because when I was my lesser self and acting anxious in front of my son, I had a calm mom ask me what was going on and if I needed help. Just someone tuning in and caring was enough to support my shifting in the moment.

Much love and peace


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

One more thing, from a child's perspective. If a child is acting out that is a message for the adults to tune into, they want or need something and need to be shown how to meet that need. I sure wish as a child, an adult would have intervened when my parents lost control


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bridge's Mom*
Hi,

I am new to this group and thought I would give my reply a whirl. How do I find out about the abreviations DD, DS and what that all means?


Welcome! Here you go:
Abbreviations


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gene*
Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

oooohhh and how MUCH!!!!
this is Switzerland here and (much as I actively try avoiding peds who talk about discipline) I have had to listen to:
- how the fact that I do not let my kids CIO (I did not mention we cosleep, God forbid) will lead them to being needy, not adapting to school etc.
- how the fact that I let my dd (at the time 2 yo) "have her way all time" (because during the visit, while I had been talking to the ped for 20 minutes and she had been an angel, asked me at one point if she could exchange seats with me, and I _let_ her) caused her to have _eczema_!!!!!! (this was a omeopathic doctor....stopped going there of course...)
and many more instances I now have forgotten.
I am sorry I am rambling and totally OT but please forgive me, I need to get this off my chest sometimes...
Anyway, I second other people's idea of making a note of what happens and telling the mom (in private, next time she comes for a visit) if she would like some advice on discipline and if she wants advice just give her some handouts or website addresses and tell her if she is interested you are willing to talk to her (but not in front of dc).
Frankly, I do not think it is OK for a doctor to impose his/her views if the parents do not wish him/her to do so. Although I can laugh about what the doctors said, it was very painful for me at the time, because although it seems childish, you still trust a doctor, and to imply in any way I was causing my dd eczema that was just very mean...
Sorry, getting emotional...


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## Three~Little~Birds (Jan 10, 2005)

morning glory said:


> I don't consider that abuse...more like ineffective parenting.
> 
> Ditto!


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I definitely wouldn't call CPS for that! That is way, way over the line. I strongly disagree with hitting, tapping, smacking, spanking or whatever else anyone wants to call it. I think it should all be illegal. However, I do not think it would be in a child's best interest to be snatched from his parents over something like that.

I personally don't listen to anything a ped says about discipline. However, I imagine the type of person that would hit their child is a lot different than me, and would probably view a doctor as a trusted advisor, so they may be interested in what you have to say regarding discipline.

ETA: I do think it is always the right thing to step in when a child is being hit. I just don't think pulling rank as a pediatrician is a great way to do it.


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

Thank you so much for welcoming me and assisting me with abbreviations!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

When I was in a position as a "required reporter", I had to take a class that very clearly outlined the types of situations that would require a report. I was a youth group leader at church. You mean that Peds. don't even have that much training? Yikes!! The guideline was "any physical abuse that leaves a mark, any sexual abuse at all (including things far short of actual sex), and any consistant pattern of emotional abuse." While I don't advocate or approve of many of the discipline practices that leaves "uncovered", I think its a reasonable stardard for when to get others involved.

I, for one and speaking only for myself, have no interest in hearing about discipline from my children's doctors. In that area, they can have all sorts of different approaches, some of which are repellent to me, and they generally don't know any more than I do. If someone is interested, they will ask. And then I think its OK to present recommendations and such. But I don't want unsolicited advise on anything other than pure medical issues.

I hate to react negatively to a new person, but this really bothers me:

Quote:

Regarding this topic, I would speak up. Gently and firmly state that people are not for hitting. Hitting creates shame, punishment, and ill will. I consider slapping, spanking, etc. abuse. I consider yelling abuse. These abuses affect a person's psyche, physicality, emotionality, etc.
While it is true that yelling at children isn't good for them, I have a real probably with classifying poor or ineffective discipline practices as abuse. If we call even yelling abuse, then what do we call the cases of real, physically harming a child for life, sorts of things? If shaming is abuse, then what do we call those incidents that caused such trama that they are forever burned into the minds of the chilren who suffered, even if they didn't cause lasting physical harm? As you can guess, I could give you some real lovely stories from my own life. And I feel that calling every little "less than perfect" parenting move as abuse trivializes actual abuse.

And if you label everything short of perfect GD parenting as abuse, then how do you deal with it when you lose it? Which we all do, at least occassionally. If its abuse to yell, then how do you deal with yourself when you yell, even if it's only once in a great while?


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

My ped has a sign in the waiting room that reads "this is a spank-free zone" and something else in smaller letters explaining that hitting kids teaches them to hit....
Maybe you could print out something like this and frame it! It would be food-for-thought for so many...


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Djwratha*
My ped has a sign in the waiting room that reads "this is a spank-free zone" and something else in smaller letters explaining that hitting kids teaches them to hit....
Maybe you could print out something like this and frame it! It would be food-for-thought for so many...

That is awesome! All peds should have one.

As for the OP, I do consider hitting someone in the head to be abuse. But then, I also consider spanking abuse and that, sadly, is still legal. I would report it if I thought the child was in danger (how hard did she hit, etc.?) Otherwise, for the reasons the other posters gave, I probably would not. I wish ALL hitting were reportable but the reality is that it has to be pretty horrific to be deemed "abuse."

Since you are in a position to educate parents, I think you should explain that spanking is harmful and why. You can judge for yourself how receptive parents are to this information. But I think you have the opportunity to do a lot of good.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:

Quote Removed by Moderator
It's not "spanking in public" that I take seriously. It's hitting another human being. While spanking might not legally be abuse in the United States, there is no doubt in my mind that it is an abuse of power. I hope we follow all of the countries that have already legally protected millions of children from violence. Then I won't be "taking it too seriously," as you put it, when I call the authorities. I'll be doing my civic duty in reporting a crime.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:

Removed by Moderator
I heartily disagree. And I find it so very sad that you feel you have a child who requires physical pain to learn.







Are you aware of the harms of hitting children? Or "popping" as you euphymistically say?

Do you know that "spanking children can make them temporarily more compliant but causes more problems than it cures by raising the risk that children will become aggressive, antisocial and chronically defiant, according to new research.
The discipline technique is also associated with delinquency, a failure to learn right from wrong, and an increased risk that the spanking might turn into child abuse, according to the author of one of the most comprehensive examinations of the subject."

Not to mention that hitting sends a message that violence is an acceptable way to resolve conflict. Sad. Just sad.

ETA: Did you ever find it odd that millions of children in all of the countries that have illegalized hitting children (e.g., Austria, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Cyprus, Denmark, Latvia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Germany, Israel, Iceland, Romania, Ukraine and Hungary) manage to learn just fine without violence? Is there something special about your child that makes her learn best through physical violence? Or is it just easier for you? Or a lack of understanding/patience?


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## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses, but wanted to put my 2 cents in. I was a mandatory reporter for a few years and have a degree in social work. I would not turn someone in to CPS for what was described. Some states require any hitting of a child needing to be reported, so I understand your questioning it. I like the idea of posting a no hitting sign in your office to prevent situations like you explained. I used to do home visits and the first thing I told parents was that I was a mandatory reporter and ANY hitting would be reported (whether they were telling me about it or doing it in front of me). I feel it's a parents right, especially if their letting someone in their house, to know the rules. It's not that I'm against CPS, but I have a deep respect for families staying together. The system is far from perfect and I wouldn't recommend many children be put into it.

It's hard for me to understand how people aren't more sympathetic of these parents. It's so hard to raise children and many, many are doing it without ANY training, so they do what their parents did. Is that so hard to understand? I don't feel these people love their children any less, they just don't have as many skills to parent. I don't agree with hitting either, but I feel great sadness for families who think spanking is an ok form of discipline. Spanking isn't something alien to our culture. I was spanked. I'm sorry, this just sparked an emotional nerve.

I just feel that people can be somewhat unrealistic on this board about discipline. I really think parents do the best they can, but not everybody was raised perfectly themselves and therefore have harder times when they have children themselves.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OR Mom*
I
It's hard for me to understand how people aren't more sympathetic of these parents. It's so hard to raise children and many, many are doing it without ANY training, so they do what their parents did. Is that so hard to understand? I don't feel these people love their children any less, they just don't have as many skills to parent. I don't agree with hitting either, but I feel great sadness for families who think spanking is an ok form of disipline. Spanking isn't something alien to our culture. I was spanked. I'm sorry, this just sparked an emotional nerve.

I just feel that people can be somewhat unrealistic on this board about disipline. I really think parents do the best they can, but not everybody was raised perfectly themselves and therefore have harder times when they have children themselves.

You make good points. Violence begets violence and that is what many have learned, going generations back. But it is time to un-learn violence as a part of child-rearing. Just as it is time to un-learn racism, sexism, religious intolerance, etc.

I DO have empathy for parents who don't know better. I have volunteered on a child abuse hotline and I actually felt as much sympathy for the parents many times as for the child-victims. I feel the same about domestic violence (against adults). Many adults have internalized the violence and simply don't know better. But that doesn't change the fact that I want to help people un-learn violence in child-rearing. And I agree with you -- compassion and understanding play a role in achieving this goal. I'm sorry -- I just get frustrated with people who defend violence against children. But demonizing the parents is certainly not the way to effect change. Your point is well-taken.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Edited since post was deleted....


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
Removed by moderator























Amen.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I have removed several posts that advocated spanking. Please note the *Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines*:

Quote:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
*Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.*

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
Please report any violations of these Guidelines or the User Agreement to either me or lilylove, rather than responding to them directly to the thread.

Thanks everyone for your understanding and cooperation!


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I would report it. Yes, a cps investigation is miserable, but so is being hit by someone who's supposed to be taking care of you.

But then I am a hardliner like that. Hitting someone less than half your size, with no legal rights, and who can't leave, is a cowardly act. I don't respect that.

I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.









Are you serious? OMG.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*







Are you serious? OMG.

I second that.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.

I find that a little scary. I have never hit, tapped, smacked, popped or inflicted any other physical "discipline" on my daughter. I think it's wrong. I think it's reprehensive. However, I know some very, very good parents who have had a bad day, lost their patience and spanked a kid. They apologized and cried about it, and never did it again, but if someone like you had been watching they would have been reported to CPS and had their entire family investigated. That's horrible. Or what if you just *thought* someone was hitting their child? What if that's what it looked like, but that isn't what actually happened?

I really think that if you want to help children, you should step in when you see these things happening - not disrupt an entire family, possibly having children removed from good parents.


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## pacifica (Apr 8, 2006)

Brigianna, I find your post very disturbing!! Gentle Discipline is a type of discipline and I'm very happy that I use this technique.....BUT many people do not hold your strong belief. That doesn't mean they require state intervention. Do you know the trama CPS can have on a family? Maybe you could hand out a book to these folks instead!


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

While I would not call CPS if I witnessed a spanking, I think I understand Brigianna's sentiment. Kids SHOULD be protected from violence.

I'm not saying that every spanking/instance where the parent "loses it" leads to abuse either. But I do know that in many, many of the child abuse cases I've studied (many of them fatal), people who could have intervened and saved a child didn't. In too many cases, neighbors, relatives and other witnesses will later tell police that they "didn't want to interfere," they "wanted to mind their own business," etc.

Anyway, I'm not saying that every instance of hitting warrants police or CPS involvement. I really think that education is the key. Same with so many other issues. People who circ boys should not have their babies whisked away. They should have access to education. Women who don't bf should have access to education and support, not condescending lectures or rude judgment.

I think spanking should be illegal but that there should not be penal consequences. At least not while the law is new and our culture is in transition. I think that, as in Sweden, hitting should result in mandatory parenting classes and/or counseling so that people can learn to parent without violence. After all, the goal is not to humiliate people, be holier than thou, or rip families apart. The goal is to empower people to parent without violence. To unlearn what might be deeply engrained in them.

In sum, I do agree with those who would not pick up the phone and call CPS at the drop of a (violent) hat. But children would be better off with legal protection against hitting so that we didn't have to make these absurd judgment calls (how hard did she hit him? was it in the face, head, or "just" his buttocks? did it leave marks? etc.). And I do think that violence against children is an issue that is ALL of society's business.

ETA: I'm thinking of the CHazarus Hill case in Oakland. Varioius neighbors witnessed the 3-year-old's father spanking him with tree branches, belts and his hands. Often. One neighbor was quoted as saying that she "thought he was just spanking him as you would any child." Chazarus didn't survive those "spankings." That is a case where someone like Brigianna and her speed dial could have saved a life. And yes, I know there is a difference between a spankng and fatal abuse. But it's a tough call sometimes....


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.

You know...back when I was going through the breakdown of my marriage and trying to do everything...work a very stressful full-time job, save my marriage (what a joke!), all the childcare (non-work hours, of course), make sure ds1 had _fun_ (I was the _only_ one taking him to the park, having picnics, playing Play-Doh, etc. with him), grocery shopping (on foot - no car), picking him up at the babysitter's (even if dh was home, because _he_ was "too tired"), getting meals, laundry, housework, human alarm clock (for my ex & ds1), helping ds1 withs homework, dishes, bills, etc,. etc., etc....I did lose it a couple of times and smack ds1, and he got yelled at way too much. I can remember times when ds1 and I wound up crying together on the floor in the hallway, because I felt so bad about being so mean to him, and he was upset because I was upset - I can remember gasping out "no, sweetie, it wasn't your fault - it was mommy's fault - I shouldn't have done that - I'm sorry" between tears. (I also sort-of hit my ex a couple of times, and yelled at him and cursed at him quite a lot.) It was _not_ a pleasant home and I should have left. That's blindingly obvious to me _now_, but it took a few months of this to realize it.

If someone had called CPS (our equivalent) on me, they would have been in my home, hassling me about housework and all the rest, and _adding_ to my stress level. They may have taken my son away, as my ex was a pot smoker (one of the things we were fighting about). After about six months of things being this bad, I kicked my ex-husband out. I've never hit my son again. He's a happy, confident, loving, intelligent, creative, wonderful boy. Yet, some well-meaning person could have thrown him into the foster care system. I had friends who were in foster care here when I was younger...one of them was sexually abused by someone in her foster parent's home...she also had another foster mom's boarder selling her drugs, while the mom was out partying...another friend was placed with four different families in one school year. Do you honestly believe that would have been better for my son, than being with his mom who loved him more than anything in the world, but was only a human being going through a really bad time? CPS is _not_ a fix-all. They don't have all the answers, and they don't necessarily make things better. It's unfortunate that people, including me, hurt their children sometimes...but _I'm_ my son's protector, and despite my slips years ago, I've done a better job for him than CPS has for _any_ of the people I've known who have ended up in their files. CPS should be the place to go when a child is being abused badly enough that they will be better off _in_ the system than out of it...and that's not because someone spanks their child sometimes. Maybe when someone calls CPS, it's with the thought that "CPS can teach him/her to be a better parent", but once the call is made, CPS are the ones who decide how to handle it, and I don't trust them.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
You know...back when I was going through the breakdown of my marriage and trying to do everything...work a very stressful full-time job, save my marriage (what a joke!), all the childcare (non-work hours, of course), make sure ds1 had _fun_ (I was the _only_ one taking him to the park, having picnics, playing Play-Doh, etc. with him), grocery shopping (on foot - no car), picking him up at the babysitter's (even if dh was home, because _he_ was "too tired"), getting meals, laundry, housework, human alarm clock (for my ex & ds1), helping ds1 withs homework, dishes, bills, etc,. etc., etc....I did lose it a couple of times and smack ds1, and he got yelled at way too much. I can remember times when ds1 and I wound up crying together on the floor in the hallway, because I felt so bad about being so mean to him, and he was upset because I was upset - I can remember gasping out "no, sweetie, it wasn't your fault - it was mommy's fault - I shouldn't have done that - I'm sorry" between tears. (I also sort-of hit my ex a couple of times, and yelled at him and cursed at him quite a lot.) It was _not_ a pleasant home and I should have left. That's blindingly obvious to me _now_, but it took a few months of this to realize it.

If someone had called CPS (our equivalent) on me, they would have been in my home, hassling me about housework and all the rest, and _adding_ to my stress level. They may have taken my son away, as my ex was a pot smoker (one of the things we were fighting about). After about six months of things being this bad, I kicked my ex-husband out. I've never hit my son again. He's a happy, confident, loving, intelligent, creative, wonderful boy. Yet, some well-meaning person could have thrown him into the foster care system. I had friends who were in foster care here when I was younger...one of them was sexually abused by someone in her foster parent's home...she also had another foster mom's boarder selling her drugs, while the mom was out partying...another friend was placed with four different families in one school year. Do you honestly believe that would have been better for my son, than being with his mom who loved him more than anything in the world, but was only a human being going through a really bad time? CPS is _not_ a fix-all. They don't have all the answers, and they don't necessarily make things better. It's unfortunate that people, including me, hurt their children sometimes...but _I'm_ my son's protector, and despite my slips years ago, I've done a better job for him than CPS has for _any_ of the people I've known who have ended up in their files. CPS should be the place to go when a child is being abused badly enough that they will be better off _in_ the system than out of it...and that's not because someone spanks their child sometimes. Maybe when someone calls CPS, it's with the thought that "CPS can teach him/her to be a better parent", but once the call is made, CPS are the ones who decide how to handle it, and I don't trust them.

But it sounds like you could have used some support. People assume that CPS exists solely to take children away. That's just not the case. There are many programs that offer respite care, parenting classes to help parents better cope with stress, hotline numbers, etc. I don't think that the above situation warrants CPS swooping in and taking your child away. But it does sound like you could have used some support.

The person who founded Parental Stress Service (a hotline in Oakland, CA) was a single mom who loved her child very much. But her circumstances were horrible and she was losing it with her son. Services like PSS offer programs designed to help parents through tough times without the violence. I support that. It's not all about taking kids away. Nor should it be. It is about helping parents and preventing/treating abuse. I do not think that parents who abuse kids are evil or deserve harsh judgment in all instances. But it frightens me that people would shy away from helping people in these situations.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I would report it. Yes, a cps investigation is miserable, but so is being hit by someone who's supposed to be taking care of you.

BTW...have you ever been there when an 8-year-old boy is being torn out of his cozy bed in the middle of the night..terrified...by total strangers? As it happens, his parents weren't hitting him, and he found CPS's intervention miserable at best. He went through absolute hell. These people were friends of mine, and I don't happen to think they were particularly good parents...but I also don't think that their children benefitted by being torn out of their bed at night, and left with strangers while the case wormed its way through the courts.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
But it sounds like you could have used some support. People assume that CPS exists solely to take children away. That's just not the case. There are many programs that offer respite care, parenting classes to help parents better cope with stress, hotline numbers, etc. I don't think that the above situation warrants CPS swooping in and taking your child away. But it does sound like you could have used some support.

The person who fouded Parental Stress Service (a hotline in Oakland, CA) was a single mom who loved her child very much. But her circumstances were horrible and she was losing it with her son. Services like PSS offer programs designed to help parents through tough times without the violence. I support that. It's not all about taking kids away.

Assuming that parenting classes would have helped (doubt they would have - this was extremely situational), when would I have gone? I'm not sure what respite care is? And, why does anybody need to call CPS to provide a hotline number? If something like that exists here, why not just hand it out with well-baby checks or something? (In all honesty, I doubt I'd have called. I'm paranoid about interference from CPS, and would be afraid that calling would somehow get them involved in screwing up my son's life.)

Anyway...I didn't want support from a hotline. I wanted my ex to actually take _some_ responsibility for something...anything...his kid, his home, his job...anything. When I finally accepted that it wasn't going to happen, I left...less stress, more money, happier me, happier ds1...everybody happy.

If someone calls CPS, can they say "don't take this kid - the mom just needs help", and have CPS stay with that? I know that CPS doesn't always take the kids...but someone calling them has no idea of what's going to happen, and the possibility always exists.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
But it frightens me that people would shy away from helping people in these situations.

The thing is that I don't see calling CPS as helping. I'd call if I thought a child was in really serious danger...beatings, starvation, etc. Because even the potential hellhole of foster care (and I'm not slamming the many good foster parents out there...it's a dice roll) is better than being beaten to death. I simply don't believe that "CPS knows best". Right now, I know someone who has them involved in her home. They've taken her story at face value...her husband's gone, because everything was his fault (it wasn't)...her 4-year-old is now being put in time-outs (perfect...all the kid wanted was some attention from his mom!), and their job is done. The kids have lost the only parent who paid any attention to them, and the 4-year-old is unhappier than before. But, the house is cleaner.... I could vomit.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
The thing is that I don't see calling CPS as helping. I'd call if I thought a child was in really serious danger...beatings, starvation, etc. Because even the potential hellhole of foster care (and I'm not slamming the many good foster parents out there...it's a dice roll) is better than being beaten to death. I simply don't believe that "CPS knows best". Right now, I know someone who has them involved in her home. They've taken her story at face value...her husband's gone, because everything was his fault (it wasn't)...her 4-year-old is now being put in time-outs (perfect...all the kid wanted was some attention from his mom!), and their job is done. The kids have lost the only parent who paid any attention to them, and the 4-year-old is unhappier than before. But, the house is cleaner.... I could vomit.

It takes quite a lot for CPS to remove children from a home. In your case, I would not have called CPS. If I were your neighbor, I would have approached you and told you that you seemed to be in a really tough spot, and could I help? I would have given you a hotline number. PSS, the one I mentioned, offers over 800 programs to help parents parent better. Respite care is free childcare for parents who are needing a break. THere are also programs offering free care while parents seek jobs, counseling, help with addictions, etc. It's not about judgment and punishment -- it's about helping people who really need it.

I don't think it is or should be all about trying to get kids taken away. The sad thing to me is that so many people think that this will automatically happen if they get involved. And this myth causes many people to stick their heads in the sand. There are lots of steps to take to help an overwhelmed parent before removing kids. I just wish that more people would take them, reach out and help parents.

Because regardless of what is causing the violence (unemploymemt, domestic violence, addiction, poverty), there IS help available. I dislike that many demonize the parents and see removal of the kids as the ONLY option.

ETA: I should add that, if I ever went through tough times and ended up taking it out on my children, I would want someone to approach me (compassionately) and offer help. There is no shame in reaching out and accepting help. ANd if I was hitting my kids, I'd much rather get the help I needed than have that continue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

If someone had offered me more chlidcare, I think my head would have exploded. I was only seeing my son for 3-4 hours a day during the week as it was! I had a job. My ex didn't want help with his addictions. I suppose counselling might have helped, but it would have taken time...more or less than it took me to figure out myself that I had leave?...I don't know.

I highly doubt that any of my neighbours knew there was a problem. If/when they heard me screaming, the probably thought it was a fight with my ex. I'm not sure what help they could have offered me, anyway. Child care was NOT what I needed. I wanted to be home with my son, and somehow, I don't think my neighbours were going to offer to pay the rent and buy me food so that I could do that. A hotline number might have been useful, but, without having tried it, I really don't know.

I don't think CPS will automatically take a child. But, I know that it does NOT take "quite a lot" for them to do so. I've seen it happen. I followed the entire court case, beginning to end, including the transcript of the complainant's testimony. I saw three children kept from their parents for a year (they got a few supervised visits - Christmas and such), then returned, as if nothing had ever happened. I've known a total of six families who have had CPS involved in their lives. In _one_ of those cases, she ended up better off (and that was the girl who was being sexually abused and buying drugs in foster care). In every other case, they did huge damage to the family, including the children, then went on their merry way. I hope the people who called feel better about themselves, because it would be nice if _someone_ benefitted from their interference.


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

I had CPS threaten to seek custody of my child because we were refusing eye prophylaxis after his birth. The agent told us she could and would seek custody over this.
My point? If that agent had that kind of power and was willing to use it over something like that, then you don't know what could happen if you call them for something that, potentially, could be a misunderstanding. I don't think CPS is evil or corrupt. I believe they are needed and helpfull sometimes, but why call them if you could offer help in a way that does not have the same risks?


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilylove*
but why call them if you could offer help in a way that does not have the same risks?

This is my point exactly. I think that protecting children from violence is the business of ALL of us. There are so many programs out there available to help people that do not involve removing children from the home. Also, I don't think we should underestimate the value of reaching out to friends, neighbors, relatives. I think what I react negatively to is the view that how other people treat "their" children is none of our business. I think that violence against children IS society's business. Just as domestic violence against adults is.

After all, it is in society's best interest to help parents parent well. Education and prevention are so much more valuable than judgment and punishment, IMO. Of course, if I see a child at risk of injury or death, I am on the phone calling 911 first, CPS second.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Well, I'd certainly be willing to pass on contact numbers and such if I noticed someone who needed them. I could certainly see that making some difference, depending on circumstances. (It's certainly more helpful than the guy who stood on his balcony yelling at me, because I was yelling at ds1 for dawdling...having someone bitch me out publicly didn't do much for my screaming headache, hacking cough, or sore arms from lugging heavy groceries. It just made me feel even worse about not being able to cope just then.)

But, as I said, I wouldn't call CPS unless I felt the child was in danger of massive injury or death. CPS is too often a cure worse than the disease, imo.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

To clarify, I wouldn't call cps over "spanking," ie a slap on the butt. That is wrong, but unfortunately it isn't illegal. I report illegal things. Hitting a child under age 2 is automatically abuse, even if it's "only" a slap on the butt. So I report that. I reported the man in the store who beat the barely-standing baby on the bottoms of her feet until she screamed (calmly, I might add, and with none of the other people, including store security, even taking notice). I reported the woman who literally dragged the toddler down the sidewalk while beating him. I reported the family who had a baby sitting unsecured on an adult's lap in the back of a pickup truck going 50 mph down the state highway. I reported the woman who left her baby and toddler home alone while she went out.

I'm not talking about a loving parent who snaps. Believe me, I've *been* that parent. Not to the point of hitting, but still, not what my kids deserve. But these people go way, way beyond that.

Maybe I'm just being jaded and cynical, but in my own opinion, if your conscience and/or common sense doesn't tell you that slapping a toddler so hard that he falls over, then picking him up and slapping him again, is not something you should be doing, I don't think friendly advice is going to convince you. Child abuse is a way of life for these people. And they are *defensive* about it. They have a massive persecution complex--we "godless liberals" are taking away their "right" to "discipline" their children. Again, perhaps I'm just jaded and cynical, but it seems to me that the only thing radical authoritarians respect is authority. In this case, the authority of the state.

And, at least where I live, cps doesn't take children away for things like that. They do a cursory "investigation" and they give a warning. They write it in a file. At most, they assign parenting classes. They don't have the budget to actually enforce the law.

I do understand the other side. I was investigated by cps when dd was a baby. We have all heard these stories about cps taking children for things like homeschooling or co-sleeping. And I am very, very sensitive about any kind of abuse of power. But as offended as I am by these things, I have reformed my opinion about it. It's like airport security--if they don't search me, they won't search the bad guys. Yes, there are bad cps people, just like there are bad police, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't report crime.

I'm sorry if I sound judgmental, but, well, I am. I believe that treatment of children is the great moral issue of our time. If there were an adult treating another adult the way these people treat their children, would we say he needs help or education, or he needs jail? Don't children deserve at least as much?


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!

Likewise. I've never seen anything that bad. I have heard a lot of scary stories about the kids who slip through the cracks, and it boggles my mind. They hang around someone's house for weeks, because a neighbour said that the kids hadn't been outside in a month. (Everyone in the complex has kids, so how could the neighbour even know, unless she's been inside all that time, herself?) They pull someone's kids out of bed in the middle of the night, based on one accusation of one incident of sexual abuse that allegedly happened 13 years prior. Yet, children are taken in by concerned relatives (eyewitnesses in some cases) with bruises and bone-breaks, and nothing is done? I don't get the way they think at all.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I think peds have no business telling parents how to raise their kids. It's an abuse of perceived authority. For example, the AAP statement about co-sleeping is just undefendable to me, as there is solid evidence that it is a boon to children's health. (A strong warning about intoxication would have been better.)

_*HOWEVER!*_

This child is your patient, and he was being _hit_ by his mother. I doubt it's CPS worthy, but at a minimum _every_ citizen, and that includes peds, has an obligation to speak up for hurting kids - whether anyone calls it abuse, assault, or "ineffective parenting". (For me, the way to tell is if I did the act in question to a stanger in the park, what would it be called?)

I like the idea of a sign. I also think that printing up articles is a good idea. But talking about how the "smacking" (whatever that mom calls it) will affect your patient is relevant to his care. I will be happy to help you find some articles with the relevant info if you want!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

About the question of whether our peds talk to us about discipline...

There are 2 categories to me. When he asks about DS's responses to us and "boundaries" and "limits" - a concept I don't subscribe to in the usual way - I assume he is interested in the developmental issues about that, and further assume that he frames his questions that way because that is his paradigm. I never feel like having a discussion about the difference when we are there, as DS is always under much stress, and I just answer the questions as honestly as I can within that framework. It tells him what he needs to know.

The other category is when it really crosses over into advice, or endorsement of how to parent in a way that has no proven benefit to the child. In other words, preferences or prejudices. For example, as I mentioned in the last post, I think sleeping (namely how to help kids get it) is in the domain of parenting, not medical care. Co-sleeping, CIO, and night-nursing are not medical sleep issues, except that CIO and milk-withholding is abusive and harmful to the patients the ped should be advocating for. I have told this to my ped (who I like very much) after disecting an article he posted in his exam room, which with rather poor logic and an authoritarian tone admonished parents to CIO.

To me the line does not distinguish whether peds should offer advice or not, but that peds should advocate for their patients - and the line is drawn between practices that are clearly beneficial and those that are demonstratively harmful.

Hitting is harmful. Stopping it benefits your patient.

JM.02


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!

There are. But I'm working a little revolution over here, persuading the persuadables, undermining the anti-child propaganda, stalking the church nursury...


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

About peds, I think it's pretty pathetic how doctors are deified in mainstream society. But, with that being the case, I think pro-childrens-rights doctors should use their undue influence for good rather than evil.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
But I'm working a little revolution over here, persuading the persuadables, undermining the anti-child propaganda, stalking the church nursury...











Rock on!


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.









It must be kept in mind that any time CPS is called a parent could loose a child. Though I am a gd parent and think any hitting of a child is wrong. In the OP a child being removed from the parents I believe causes more damage than did the light hit on the head. I think a way better option is educating the parent and creating a no hit zone in the office.


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## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I would not report, but yes intervene. The child assumes it is all right to be treated this way when another adult endorses it by silence. Someone must stand up for him.

And, its not too late. You can share with him in a meeting.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
. . . peds should advocate for their patients - and the line is drawn between practices that are clearly beneficial and those that are demonstratively harmful.

THANK YOU for this wonderful insight, aira!


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