# Body Modifications



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

What are your thoughts on teens and body modification?

I have a 16 year old, 17 in the fall. She wants to dye her hair blue. I said fine, but let me get the family portraits done first. She wants to get facial piercings (nose, eyebrow, has mentioned tongue). She also wants to stretch her ears and to get tattoos.

Now, the piercing talk has faded, so she may have got over that, and I'm not about to remind her. I'm really against permanent changes to her body, especially ones I consider ugly (all of the above pretty much). She's not putting much thought into other than "I want to". I'm saying no. She says that for the ear stretching, if you don't go above a particular size (which I don't remember what it is) then you don't need surgery to close it up.

I have told her that she needs to have saved up the money for the plastic surgery to fix anything she does to her body before she does it to her body. She's not buying that! But she won't go behind my back, I'm pretty sure.

So. I realize it's her body. I get that. I'm also older and wiser, and know what job hunting, etc. is like, and how hard it can be. I feel it can be a hindrence to being taken seriously in adulthood.

I'm interested in people's opinions both with my daughter and with modifications in general.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Blue hair and piercings are fine, I would probably ask her to wait for stretching and tattoos until she's 18.


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## NannyMcPhee (Nov 24, 2010)

Yeah my mom said no the piercings when I was a teen, but I got them anyway. I went to a cheap piercer and got some unskilled, bad piercings as a result, with ended up causing a lot of scar tissue. If she does it, you should insist she research her piercers and make sure she goes to a professional with a good reputation. The blue hair and other piercings wouldn't bother me, but as PP said, I would probably encourage the tattoos and stretching to wait till 18.

This is the time in a persons life where they can experiment with this kind of thing without any real repercussions, unless she is going straight from high school in a tight laced corporate job it shouldn't really make a difference to her future prospects. THAT said, I do know plenty of people that work all kinds of jobs, legal, medical, administrative, service oriented even corporate ones, that have piercings and tats.

Also, one persons ugly is another persons beautiful.


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

Blue hair is fine with me. My daughter pierced her nose and I thought it was really cute. She had plans for other piercings, but got a keloid on her nose that required a steroid shot, so any plans for future piercings went by the wayside. I would have been fine with a small tattoo also, but no one here will tattoo a child. I would definitely not be comfortable with a tongue piercing because my next door neighbor developed a pre-cancerous growth at the piercing site. I don't know about the ear gauging either.

For my daughter, interest in piercings and tattoos peaked at about 16 and was pretty much gone by the time she was 18 and could do anything she wanted. If she had not developed keloids (twice, because she really really wanted that nose piercing!) she may have had more done. At her high school the thing to do was go out with your friends and get a tattoo on your 18th birthday. The fact that so many people were doing it also turned her off, She likes to be different. My son was never interested in any of it.


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## Emma Bryan Fuller (Dec 17, 2007)

I agree with the others. I would have no probs with anything none permanent. I would almost be happy for her to get those so she may be happy and forget about the others! Then you would still be a reasonable parent and not one who says NO for everything. I got so many piercings and never regretted them so I think that's something you can do when young. I would never be OK with a tat or ear stretching. A tat isn't something I could've decided on at 18...but that's me. Also the ear thing...eeeew! My ears are stretched due to having them pierced at a yr old and they never healed back.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't see any problem with any of the things your daughter is exploring. Especially the blue hair. What is the purpose of a family picture anyway if not to capture in time your family...so I don't really understand the point of waiting until after the photos to dye her hair. Were I her I think I would have been offended by that request actually.

You can have a perfectly respectable professional career with piercings and tattoos. At least this is the case every place I have ever lived. I am a high school teacher and I have three tattoos which I did not takes pains to cover in my classroom. When I was a teaching assistant I had an eyebrow ring (which, like a PP ended up with a nasty keltoid scar. I suppose it was good to know I scarred easily _before_ I had a c-section). I also had blue hair as a TA. In none of these situations was my authority challenged or my professional commitment doubted.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

I have tattoos, and have had piercings, myself. So I obviously do not have a problem with them.

For the tongue tattoo, I would not suggest it. Myself, and almost everyone I know who have had one for any length of time have problems with their teeth. The ring taps against your teeth repeatedly throughout the time it's in. This weakened a part in my tooth, which then eventually broke. Other people I have known have had chipped teeth.

A nose ring, eyebrow ring and lip ring are not permanent body modification. I know people who work in the courts and government who have septum piercings (the centre part of your nose). These can easily be worn tilted up inside for work if needed.

I would not be against a tattoo. These can be on any number of parts of the body and still be able to be covered for a corporate job. Any part of the body that can be covered for a job interview or on the job during all seasons would be fine with me. I would ask my kid to be 25 before getting tattooed in more prominent parts of the body or to get stretching done. Hopefully if Im cool about other stuff they will listen to that advice.

With the hair, I'd be fine if my 6yr old wanted blue hair. That just isn't even something on my radar to be worried about.


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## MovnMama (Jul 3, 2009)

I'm pro-body modifications over here. In fact, yesterday I just sat (second session of three) for 4.5 hours on my sleeve tattoo (shoulder to elbow, so only a half-sleeve) honoring my son's birth and also my pregnancy losses. It's a beautiful, custom piece, and I'm thrilled about it. Also, I have 4 other tattoos (upper back, just below the elbow on my other arm, and two that are 4 or 5 inches high full circle around both my ankles).

That being said, the one I got when I was 18 is my least favorite, and I don't think I should have gotten one that young, but I did make a good decision about it's location (upper back) and it's always been hidden in any business attire. In fact, when I'm in a business suit, you can't see any of my tattoos. I very consciously planned it that way. Also, I live in a conservative area and am in a conservative profession, but many of my fellow school district employees have piercings and tattoos (eyebrow and nose piercings mostly, and upper arm and ankle tattoos).

The thing about tattoos is that, IMHO, they should be symbolic and also custom. I don't feel that basic tribal tattoos that come out of a book at tattoo shop (ahem, the one on my back from when I was 18) are beautiful or meaningful (with rare exceptions). Also, depending on physical development, 17-18 is still quite young and a person's body (especially males) can still grow, stretching their skin, etc. Also, they HURT a lot.

My parents begged me to get pierced and not tattooed, the idea being that piercings can always be removed. I did have 11 (I think) piercings in my ears, but never wanted to pierce anything else. I personally don't think facial piercings are attractive, but as a pp stated, beauty is quite subjective. Also, for the record, I dyed my super-short hair every color of the rainbow, with permanent hair dye, from blonde to blue to red to black and back again, over and over. My parent's liked blonde the best (not my natural color!







).

I think it's important to consider that a wide variety of cultures throughout history have used body modifications as a right of passage. I personally would argue that teens have a hard time in our culture today because we don't provide them with this type of process. Also there is the psychology of the forbidden fruit that plays a role in wanting a tattoo as well. I never went behind my parents back to get a tattoo, I just waited until I didn't need their permission anymore. ETA: an interesting book to read on this kind of topic is The Quest for Human Beauty by Julian Robinson. It's about the cultural anthropology of beauty. Interestingly, all cultures practice some kind of body modification. He hypothesizes that this separates humans from animals.

If/when it becomes a question with my son, I'd let him have a regular piercing - ear, nose, eyebrow, tongue, lip but not gauged ears; we'd probably negotiate a waiting period for him to gauge if that's really what he wanted. There's no going back with that and it's not hideable by a business suit - (clearly this is one of my sticking points. I love tattoos, but I'm not going to tattoo "RIP Vinnie" in old English lettering on my neck either. Certain criteria apply - anything permanent should be classy, carefully located and done by quality professionals). With tattoos, as I've stated my belief about customized and meaningful work, and also rites of passage, I would probably have lengthy discussions with him about what he wanted to get, what it symbolized, and where to get it. He and DH and I would plan it together, and he could get it when he's 18. I don't approve of under-age tattoos, personally, for the developmental reasons stated above. Tattoos at age 18 are kind of a rite of passage in our culture anyway, and my signing a waiver would take that away from him. Weird, but that's how I feel.


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## nomadsindiansaints (Jan 17, 2009)

I'd be fine w/ the hair and the piercings, with the possible exception of tongue piercing (though I wouldn't forbid it). And as a PP said, I'd DEFINITELY make sure she researched the people working on her, because I too had a lousy piercing done at a random unprofessional place as a teenager, and it never healed correctly.

As for the tattoos...I love them. Absolutely positively love them, IF THEY ARE WELL DONE. But most of the heavily tatted people I know have had their earliest tats removed or covered over because their 20-something selves no longer liked their 16-18yo choices (content, quality, memories, whatever). If her design choice is something guaranteed to be lasting, and her artist is really talented - ie, if she's really thought this through - I would sign off on a small tattoo in an easy-to-cover place.

I would also be fine w/ her doing gauges, but only up to a 00 (ie, the point of no return, iirc). There are certainly some loud gauges out there, but I wear bone and horn and glass gauges (2's & 4's) and no one ever knows my ears are gauged unless they look closely. I could easily work an office job w/o anyone noticing. So even if she wants to wear something that stands out most of the time, she also has lots of more subdued, feminine options for times when that might be more appropriate. Also, if I leave my gauges out for a week or 2 I can still wear normal earrings and it doesn't looks weird. That said, I don't have any scarring whatsoever - like all of the above, it's really important that she knows what she's doing and does it right to avoid the pitfalls.

Overall, I think it's great that she's getting creative about her personal appearance. Who knows what will last and what will be quickly discarded, but I personally don't think there's any reason to stress about it, just do your/her research.


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## nomadsindiansaints (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *colsxjack*
> 
> With the hair, I'd be fine if my 6yr old wanted blue hair. That just isn't even something on my radar to be worried about.


That.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> I don't see any problem with any of the things your daughter is exploring. Especially the blue hair. What is the purpose of a family picture anyway if not to capture in time your family...so I don't really understand the point of waiting until after the photos to dye her hair. Were I her I think I would have been offended by that request actually.


Not an issue (her being offended) - I mean she's not offended, not that I don't care if she is. And I see your point about capturing now in a photo, but I'm quite happy to do more portraits after with blue hair. But I want "normal" ones too.

I am perfectly fine with her dying her hair, that is so totally not an issue. Heck, I let her dye it at 11 or 12, and helped her. She hasn't done it since.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nomadsindiansaints*
> 
> But most of the heavily tatted people I know have had their earliest tats removed or covered over because their 20-something selves no longer liked their 16-18yo choices (content, quality, memories, whatever). If her design choice is something guaranteed to be lasting, and her artist is really talented - ie, if she's really thought this through - I would sign off on a small tattoo in an easy-to-cover place


Problem is, she wants the Dark Mark! http://swansong.determinismsucks.net/nonsense/Dark_Mark_II.png

I'm actually okay with some of the piercing places (nose maybe, ears, belly button maybe) but not the gauging (and thanks for the info on the size) or some of the other ones. But I'll take piercing over tattoos any day!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Piercings in the mouth are a dental nightmare. I highly recommend you and your dd talk to your dentist together next time you are there. Saying "no" isn't the answer. She neds to understand the fallout from those so that she doesn't do something stupid when she turns 18. Infections are just the start, then broken teeth, root canals, etc. Long term, they can cause so much damage the person needs gum surgery.

Here, kids can't get tattoos until they are 18, even if their parents sign.

What does she want to do with her life? Have you discussed how some of these things are seen in some situations?

I'd be ok with blue hair and a nose piercing. And I think you need to schedule the portrait asap, or that it's fair to ask her to wait.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

re: Blue hair

- what color is your DDs hair? Because if it is dark, then she'll have to probably peroxide it to get it pale enough to take a blue dye.

My DD (14) wanted purple streaks and after lots of conversation I agreed to pay half (and she pay half) at a salon to have

She has very dark hair so the purple faded quite quickly to the paler color that was required to make purple show up. Then she was messing about w/ her hair for the next few months.

My husband and I continued to express our concerns about the chemicals used to dye her hair and how it is also bad for her hair. So, she had this sort of band of reddish hair and her dark roots coming in a bit, but we were patient. Then about a month ago she looked at some pictures from a friend's birthday party and thought "Ugh". So, I agreed to help pay for a trip to a salon to basically dye her hair back to it's original color, so as it grows out it will go back to her "normal".

Piercings - she started to want pierced ears when she was about 8 or 9 and I said "Wait until you are 13" because I wanted her to be able to take care of it herself. Then, that was her big 13th b-day present.

She once sounded me out about other piercings and I basically said "Not while you're a minor. When you're 18 it's up to you." She has no interest in tattoos for herself. One time when we visited Toronto I let her get henna designs on her hands.


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

When my daughter was in her "I want a tattoo" phase, she was absolutely convinced that she wanted the Little Mermaid on her calf. Now, at 22, she cringes when I remind her







. I wonder what your daughter will think of the Dark Mark in 6 years? It is cooler than the Little Mermaid, but still.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 


> She says that for the ear stretching, if you don't go above a particular size (which I don't remember what it is) then you don't need surgery to close it up.


she's misinformed on this


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

No piercings or tattoos until over 18, period. Boy, girl, doesn't matter. Same with tattoos. Hair dyeing would be on a case by case basis, dependent on the child.

I should say, this comes from two parents that are "heavily" tattooed. And I've had my share of piercings in the past, though I've since taken most out. I do plan to re-do one at some point in the near future and add another. I just feel very strongly that the things that people want to do to their bodies when they're minors are not necessarily something they're going to want later. And while you can take piercings out, there are scarring issues. Some won't be major, some will. It's not worth it to me to have that on my head.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

If you really don't want her to stretch her ears and she is considering that, I'd wait for her to get the ear piercing until she is 18, because once you have the hole it's quite easy to stretch. As for the other piercings, none of the piercing and tattoo shops I've been to will do anything other than basic lobe holes in minors. I'm not into the whole, if they want it help them get it because they will just do it anyway mentality.

My dd did want white blond hair when she was about 15, we discussed what was involved ( I had blond hair in my 20s) and I took her for a consult with a professional as part of getting informed, but I told her I wasn't going to pay for it and she could make that decision when she was able to. I did let her dye her hair other colors that didn't require bleaching though. She still has never gone blond.

I have 6 tattoos and 2 piercings and had my nose pierced at one point. My daughter is 21 now and got her ears pierced as an adult, stretched them to 12 gauge ( which is still small) and considered getting her eyebrow pierced but so far has chosen not to. She doesn't seem to be into tattoos though.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kawa kamuri*
> 
> she's misinformed on this


Actually she isn't. Stretching doesn't just mean 4 gauge or whatever. You can stretch up to a certain size and it will shrink back. Off the top of my head I can't remember the limit either, but you start where you are and stop where you want and what is safe depending on a variety of factors.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skreader*
> 
> re: Blue hair
> 
> ...


It's light brown, with red tints, I think it would take colour very well, especially reds. She also wants Amy Davidson's hair http://www.perfectpeople.net/photo-picture-image-media/Amy-Davidson-518x690-52kb-media-3694-media-140241-1220781909.jpg I actually love that one. And I have NO ISSUE wiht any hair colouring. It's not permanent.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Piercings in the mouth are a dental nightmare. I highly recommend you and your dd talk to your dentist together next time you are there. Saying "no" isn't the answer. She neds to understand the fallout from those so that she doesn't do something stupid when she turns 18. Infections are just the start, then broken teeth, root canals, etc. Long term, they can cause so much damage the person needs gum surgery.
> 
> ...


She wants to be a midwife currently. And yes, the portraits should have been done months ago, but life has been a busy nightmare and we keep putting it off.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kawa kamuri*
> 
> she's misinformed on this


A PP said you could go up to 00 before needing surgery, now I'm confused again!


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *enkmom*
> 
> When my daughter was in her "I want a tattoo" phase, she was absolutely convinced that she wanted the Little Mermaid on her calf. Now, at 22, she cringes when I remind her
> 
> ...


My point exactly!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

My daughter got a tattoo on her 18th birthday. It wasn't that I had forbidden it until then, but more that stuff kept coming up that seemed like good reasons to wait (international travel) and then by the time she got home and settled it was just a few months from her 18th birthday anyway, so it seemed like a nice symbolic was to mark the day. She's happy with it. I don't like how it looks, but then it's her body and I don't have to see it (it's also hidden by clothing, except like a bikini or something). It healed well and the tattoo artist was clearly skillful.

She's got a few holes in each ear, I'm not really sure how many. My big thing was to go to a real piercer, not the mall. She never wanted to do the stretching, though, but I think up to a certain gauge I would have shrugged it off. And her hair has been different colors for years and years.

I think it's harder when it's a modification I personally find aesthetically unattractive... like, for me the nose piercing and tongue piercing are unattractive, but I do like the pierced eyebrow look, with a small hoop maybe. I find tattoos ugly, too, but I think I'm in the minority these days (both my siblings have a few of them).

I guess I'd focus on safety and reversibility, and work with her from there... I wouldn't want it to become a huge power struggle so that the minute she turned 18 she went out and did crazy stuff she might regret, but I also think you can sort of pace things so she doesn't do something she might later regret. Come to think of it, I think I did ask Rain to come up with a tattoo idea and then wait 6 months and see if she still wanted it, which she did, but by then other stuff had some up. If it's something she'll have forever, though, I think it's reasonable to see if she'd still want it in 6 months.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> 
> She wants to be a midwife currently. And yes, the portraits should have been done months ago, but life has been a busy nightmare and we keep putting it off.


I think that either the portrait needs to be a high enough priority that you make the appointment in the next 24 hours, or she should get to color her hair now. I understand being super busy, but you being busy isn't a reason for her to not die her hair. If you can't make the portrait thing happen right away, that's fine, but there's no reason for her to not have blue right now then. She could be sick of blue hair by the time you get around to doing the portrait.

I think that tasteful body art would be fine as a midwife. I would talk to her more about where she wants the tat, and if it really represents what she wants to represent about herself. I would also talk to her about the importance of going someplace that actually follows the laws. I'm not sure how you find that out, but people do get hepatitus (sp) from tats, so one does need to be very selective. She can do this the minute she turns 18, so helping her make GOOD choices about it seem more important to me than saying "yes" or "no."

The "no" is so temporary that it is sort of meaningless. Getting a tat on one's 18th birthday seems like a nice rite of passage. Taking time to really think about what you want makes sense.

Personally, I think gauged eyes look really, really stupid. I wouldn't want a health care provider of any sort who had them or had the scars, but I'm old and will never hire a midwife again!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

24 hours, come on. Dying your hair is not a life and death I have to do it NOWWWWW situation. Boy this thread makes me grateful I don't have one of those demanding kids that.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> A PP said you could go up to 00 before needing surgery, now I'm confused again!


So every ear lobe on earth can be stretched to 9-10mm - not 11mm as that's the magical point of no return - and shrink to its previous state? I didn't read the PP so I might have missed something but, it is a common misconception that lobe stretching can be a temporary body modification. I mean, it can be, but should be done with the understanding that it most likely is a permanent alteration of flesh.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

My Mom allowed me to have blue hair at around that age, too. The only thing I would speak to her about is whether or not it would be okay with her employer, if she has one. I ended up mysteriously getting fired the day after I dyed my hair blue, so now I am always sure to check with the higher ups before I dye my hair a non traditional color. My current employer could care less what color our hair is, so that is good.









The piercings I think are fine, as she could take them out if she wanted to. I agree with the PP, that I would ask her to wait until she was 18 for the other things, because ear stretching and tattoos are harder to reverse. I actually have no clue about ear stretching, I assume it is hard to reverse.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I think that either the portrait needs to be a high enough priority that you make the appointment in the next 24 hours, or she should get to color her hair now. I understand being super busy, but you being busy isn't a reason for her to not die her hair. If you can't make the portrait thing happen right away, that's fine, but there's no reason for her to not have blue right now then. She could be sick of blue hair by the time you get around to doing the portrait.
> 
> ...


Well even with me reminding her every day or two to make an appointment with the hairdresser (the mom of a friend of hers), she hasn't done so, so I haven't been put under the gun to get the portraits done either. If she told me today that she's getting idtdyed on Thursday, I'd have the appointment made in the meantime.

And the tatto she wants first? A DArk Mark on her left forearm. Pretty damn noticeable.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
> 
> 24 hours, come on. Dying your hair is not a life and death I have to do it NOWWWWW situation. Boy this thread makes me grateful I don't have one of those demanding kids that.


Luckily, I don't either.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Purple*Lotus*
> 
> My Mom allowed me to have blue hair at around that age, too. The only thing I would speak to her about is whether or not it would be okay with her employer, if she has one. I ended up mysteriously getting fired the day after I dyed my hair blue, so now I am always sure to check with the higher ups before I dye my hair a non traditional color. My current employer could care less what color our hair is, so that is good.
> 
> ...


She works concession at a big movie theatre. One of her supervisors has stretched ears, not sure about hair colour, but that's a good point.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh, I just asked her. Her friend dyed her hair blue, so she no longer wants to, She is back to the red I pictured earlier! I think that would be awesome on her, even in a portrait.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I would have her check just to make sure. Better to be safe than risk a job, unless she is okay with losing the job. I was shocked when my boss told me she could care less, it was not the reaction I was expecting, because I am a teacher.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
> 
> 24 hours, come on. Dying your hair is not a life and death I have to do it NOWWWWW situation. Boy this thread makes me grateful I don't have one of those demanding kids that.


The mom has been meaning to make the portrait appointment for months. Months. Waiting to die your hair for months because some else is stuck isn't reasonable. (no offense to the OPer, I understand being busy)

I don't think it's reasonable to tell a teen that can do X when the parent gets around to doing Y and then just never get around to doing Y.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> 
> Well even with me reminding her every day or two to make an appointment with the hairdresser (the mom of a friend of hers), she hasn't done so, so I haven't been put under the gun to get the portraits done either. If she told me today that she's getting idtdyed on Thursday, I'd have the appointment made in the meantime.
> 
> And the tatto she wants first? A DArk Mark on her left forearm. Pretty damn noticeable.


I don't understand -- why are you reminding her every day or two if you want her to wait until the portrait is done?

I wouldn't remind her, but I wouldn't disallow it. I'd just leave it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Purple*Lotus*
> 
> The only thing I would speak to her about is whether or not it would be okay with her employer, if she has one. I ended up mysteriously getting fired the day after I dyed my hair blue, so now I am always sure to check with the higher ups before I dye my hair a non traditional color. ...
> 
> I actually have no clue about ear stretching, I assume it is hard to reverse.


Ear gauging without the little ---- ear rings??-- can end up looking really weird, like little anuses. I'm not sure if that is just if the whole things goes wrong, or just what happens.

I also think that some forms of body art can end up with job interviews that are polite but result in "no thank you" letters. In spite of the fact that tats and piercings are very common where we live, when I walk around my DH's company, no one has any tats that show, facial piercings, or ear gauges.

I think the dark mark on a forearm sounds like a kid tattoo, and not something an adult would want. It's like having a bumper sticker that says, "come to the dark side, we have cookies" except harder to remove. I can't imagine anyone in labor wanting to look at the dark mark. Has she run this past any one working in midwifery?


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm reminding her partly so that I'll get the portraits done, and partly because I know it's something she wants. But not enough for her to make one call.

And no, she's not talked to work or a midwife about any of this. I think that will be my next step.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I had to look up what the symbol meant. I'd never heard of it. Makes sense, I've never seen the movies or read the books. I agree, it doesn't sound like something a person might want to have long term. You might, or you really might not. But this is one of the reasons I don't think minors should be getting body mods.... They change their minds a lot. It's just not worth it. There's no good reason to rush to get a tattoo.

I think back to the tattoos I wanted as a teenager, and thank goodness I had to wait until I was older. Even now, if I want a new tattoo, I make myself wait at least six months. In a lot of cases, I end up changing my mind.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Sorry, I assumed everyone knew what it was!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> 
> I'm reminding her partly so that I'll get the portraits done, and partly because I know it's something she wants. But not enough for her to make one call.


But if she can't be bothered to make a phone call about the one thing on her list that you will allow, how much does she want any of this? When she says things like "I want a tattoo of the dark mark on my forearm" does she really mean it? Or does she just mean that it would be cool/funny/whatever. There's a big difference between thinking a particular tattoo would be cool, and deeply wanting the tattoo.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

i can't imagine telling a nearly 17 year old she couldn't dye her hair. i started dying mine all sorts of colours when i was about 13. i can sort of understand not wanting her to get tattooed, but piercings are another thing i can't really imagine telling my older teenage daughter she wasn't "allowed" to do. i was 17 when i got my first tattoo and it is a truly beautiful piece of work. i had a fair number of piercings by then too, and the great thing about piercings is that they can almost always be removed without any issue... hence the only one still remaining is my nose piercing i got in my 20s.

look, i get that it's not something you think is a good idea, but i honestly don't think it's your call. body mods (and hair dye does NOT fall into that category... that's along the lines of make-up in my book) are something that truly only hurt the person who does them. she's not going to be unemployed for life because she has a few tattoos... i'm an elementary teacher and no one has ever said a thing to me about them (nor has it affected my ability to get a job, even in very conservative atmospheres). a lot of people 30 and younger, maybe even the majority, have some kind of minor body mod at this point... it's just not going to be something that affects her life with any severity in the future. as long as she is paying for it herself, going to reputable shops and is aware that her choice of placement, subject matter and size of body mod are in some way permanent, it's all good. maybe she WILL regret her first choice of tattoo, or get bored of her conch piercing, or have someone react negatively to her hair colour. these are learning experiences though, and nothing that is going to seriously ruin her life.

just so you know where i'm coming from: my parents are conservative christian missionaries. when we moved back to north america, i was really drawn to alternative culture and within a couple of years was getting pierced, tattooed etc. i don't agree with all the decisions my parents made, but one thing i really appreciate was that they emphasized caring about my ACTIONS, not my appearance. my mom used to help me dye my hair purple, she said she thought my tattoo was pretty (wasn't thrilled i got it though), she never criticized my choice of piercing, and she never banned me from getting them. i think it's a pretty normal part of teenagerhood to experiment with one's appearance, and the resounding message i got from my parents was that they loved me no matter how freaky or ridiculous i looked to them. the message you're sending to your daughter right now is that you think she will look terrible with blue hair, and you want her to 'look normal' ... basically, that your approval of her is tied to her appearance.

finally, this will either become a pretty permanent part of her life, or she'll get over it and move on. i haven't gotten a new tattoo in a loooong time, haven't dyed my hair bright colours since university and only have my nose piercing now... i'm pretty clean cut looking now and no one would probably guess how i looked at about 17-18. making it into a battle seems silly and counter productive to me.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> just so you know where i'm coming from: my parents are conservative christian missionaries. when we moved back to north america, i was really drawn to alternative culture and within a couple of years was getting pierced, tattooed etc. i don't agree with all the decisions my parents made, but one thing i really appreciate was that they emphasized caring about my ACTIONS, not my appearance. my mom used to help me dye my hair purple, she said she thought my tattoo was pretty (wasn't thrilled i got it though), she never criticized my choice of piercing, and she never banned me from getting them. i think it's a pretty normal part of teenagerhood to experiment with one's appearance, and the resounding message i got from my parents was that they loved me no matter how freaky or ridiculous i looked to them. the message you're sending to your daughter right now is that you think she will look terrible with blue hair, and you want her to 'look normal' ... basically, that your approval of her is tied to her appearance.


I have to comment that I love what you have shared here, esp. the piece about actions vs. appearance. I understand that's not the whole picture here, but I do think this is worth considering when we talk to our kids. I am no where near having a kid who wants tatooes or piercings yet, as mine is 12, but I do have regular conversations w/my dd about how she is thinking of coloring/streaking her hair-this is probably in our future. I have to say that I wouldn't have done this at her age (too inhibited), and I'm frankly happy that she's feeling self confident enough to want to express herself in this way.

I occasionally hear of kids doing piercings on their own, and I wonder why. Just being kids, or lack of feeling like there is open communication?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Heh. I dyed my daughter's hair for her for the first time when she was 7, I think. Somewhere we have a videotape from that time from the tv news of her being interviewed about the unseasonable hot weather, with bright pink hair and a Brownie uniform on....

I think Irish said upthread that she wasn't really against the hairdye... it was more just part of the broader questions of appearance modifications. Rain stopped with the colorful hairdye when she started doing a lot of theatre, because most of the parts she played required normal-colored hair. She has naturally gorgeous dark blonde hair, but she recently dyed it brown, which I do *not* understand... meanwhile, I dye my medium brown hair the dark blonde color it was when I was a teen....


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## MovnMama (Jul 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I think the dark mark on a forearm sounds like a kid tattoo, and not something an adult would want. It's like having a bumper sticker that says, "come to the dark side, we have cookies" except harder to remove. I can't imagine anyone in labor wanting to look at the dark mark. Has she run this past any one working in midwifery?


As someone with tattoos, I agree with the above. Only to a certain point, however. When she's 45, if she still thinks that Harry Potter and the symbolism that goes with is is valuable and important to her, then hey, she can get the dark mark tattooed on her forehead, even. Whatever.

I think was really needs to be sorted out is... is it the proposed tattoo ("dark mark") or the idea of tattoos in general, that the OP is concerned with? And which is the true priority for the teen?

This is the tack I would take with my own child. I think the dark mark is out of the question for a 17 year old too, but I'm 28 and have lots of ink. Clearly I'm not opposed to tattoos, and I'm not opposed to an 18 yo getting a rite of passage type tat either - but I would advise any young adult against getting a tattoo like the dark mark, because I deeply question whether or not it actually *means* something to the bearer of the tattoo. According to the fictional universe of Harry Potter, it definitely means something. As indicated by followers of this board, it really only indicates that the bearer is *really* into Harry Potter, and maybe wants to seem a little "hard."

This brings in another important discussion point for the OP's kid - *why* she wants the tattoo. To get a tattoo just to have one is different from getting a tattoo that is a symbolic rite of passage, that is patiently designed, that is conceptualized with the help of the tattoo artist and other trusted family and friends, etc. Getting a tattoo just to look cool is something to advise a teen against for the same reasons moms advise not to do all other "doing it to look cool" type things - like "if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump off too?" type deal.

If she really wants to mark her transition into adulthood, with a cooperatively developed design in an appropriately discreet body location, done by a reputable artist - I don't see the problem. If she's going down to Telegraph for a walk-in appointment with a printout of the dark mark on her 18th birthday, that's a different thing altogether, and a problem IMO. The OP is in a wonderful AP position to determine which of these happens. That is, if the kid's mind and heart are set on a tattoo. If they are not, it could be one of many issues that blows in the wind.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> 
> Oh, I just asked her. Her friend dyed her hair blue, so she no longer wants to, She is back to the red I pictured earlier! I think that would be awesome on her, even in a portrait.


LOL kids are funny.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

As far as tattoo choice at 18, it really depends on ones personal philosophy. I got my first tattoo at 19 or 20, can't remember it was a loonng time ago and I don't regret it. It's not my favorite tattoo either though, I look at it as a reflection of who I was at the time. The only tattoos I sort of regret are actually my last ones I got at about 5-6 years ago. I wanted to mark a rite of passage and choose them but they just don't mean as much to me as I thought they would. My favorite one is actually my 4th tattoo I ever got. What's my point? I'm not sure. I guess that age isn't the primary factor in art satisfaction.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> look, i get that it's not something you think is a good idea, but i honestly don't think it's your call. body mods (and hair dye does NOT fall into that category... that's along the lines of make-up in my book) are something that truly only hurt the person who does them..... it's just not going to be something that affects her life with any severity in the future.
> 
> ... i don't agree with all the decisions my parents made, but one thing i really appreciate was that they emphasized caring about my ACTIONS, not my appearance......the resounding message i got from my parents was that they loved me no matter how freaky or ridiculous i looked to them.


Body modifications ARE a parent's call until the teen is 18. Then it's the teens call. That's the magic moment when in our culture one becomes an adult. I, Personally, think it's fine for parents to say "no" about permanent modifications, but I think it's MORE important that parents talk to their teens about *why* or *why not* to get mod, how to decide what mods to get, how to get them safely etc. We can veto them now, but not forever. It's our job to help them learn to make good choice for themselves.

As far as the actions VS appearance, I agree with you but find it a poor reason to get modifications. Obviously, anyone with tattoos and multiple piercing is really, really, really concerned with how they look. It's all about looks!!!

I'm fine with my teens looking any way they want -- hair style and color, make up, clothes, fingernails, henna tattoos, and even drawing on themselves with sharpies!. I'm not confused about the actions vs. appearances thing at all. But making permanent changes to their bodies is something I think is better left until they are adults. Hopefully, they'll be better able to make decisions they will be happy with long term that way.

I also feel that body modifications DO make a difference depending on what field of work the person wants to go into. It's why I asked up-thread. In some fields, it doesn't matter. In some fields it does. A lot of teens change their minds about once a month about what they want to do when they grow up.

When getting a body modification, it *might* end up making a difference in someone's life if they got their tattoo where it is covered by business attire, or where it cannot easily be hidden. Or if the opted for a belly piercing VS ear gauging.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MovnMama*
> 
> but I would advise any young adult against getting a tattoo like the dark mark, because I deeply question whether or not it actually *means* something to the bearer of the tattoo. .....
> 
> This brings in another important discussion point for the OP's kid - *why* she wants the tattoo. To get a tattoo just to have one is different from getting a tattoo that is a symbolic rite of passage, that is patiently designed, that is conceptualized with the help of the tattoo artist and other trusted family and friends, etc. Getting a tattoo just to look cool is something to advise a teen against for the same reasons moms advise not to do all other "doing it to look cool" type things










One of the girls in my DDs' school turned 18 last week and got a tattoo on her birthday. It's lovely. She spent years planning it and it is in memory of her father. It's on her shoulder, so she can decide in what context she wants it visable, and in what context she wants it to be private.


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## grethel (Mar 14, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *karne*
> 
> I have to comment that I love what you have shared here, esp. the piece about actions vs. appearance. I understand that's not the whole picture here, but I do think this is worth considering when we talk to our kids. I am no where near having a kid who wants tatooes or piercings yet, as mine is 12, but I do have regular conversations w/my dd about how she is thinking of coloring/streaking her hair-this is probably in our future. I have to say that I wouldn't have done this at her age (too inhibited), and I'm frankly happy that she's feeling self confident enough to want to express herself in this way.
> 
> I occasionally hear of kids doing piercings on their own, and I wonder why. Just being kids, or lack of feeling like there is open communication?


I was one who got piercings done by friends without my parents' permission. In my case, I felt a deep need for individuation, so I was driven to have it done. I knew my mother would never agree (my mom and I fought a lot over her wishes for how I looked as opposed to my wishes) so I did it on my own at 16. I should mention I was in college and living on my own at the time, but not legally emancipated so to go to a legitimate shop I would have needed her permission. She did hate it, was angry, shamed me over it - but I didn't regret doing it. Only felt bad about her reaction.

For that reason, when my dd wanted a cartilage piercing (top of her ear) for her 13th birthday, I made an appointment at a great, reliable shop, and I took her myself. Rite of passage, and everyone's happy. She has a few other ear piercings. Law here is 16 for piercing other parts of her body, so she'll wait until then for anything else, and 18 for tattoos. I hope that by talking honestly and often about body mods in regards to her health and future plans, she'll make responsible decisions when they're hers to make. If she does get other piercings done by friends before the legal age, I won't be angry and I won't shame her (or tell her I wish she looked "normal," or anything like that - wow do I remember how much that hurt to hear from my mom). I will express my concern about her health, tell her why I think it's not a good idea to pierce certain parts of her body or to do it in a nonprofessional environment. But when it comes down to it, it's her body and all I can do is educate her and try to help her stay safe.

As far as hair dyeing and other nonpermanent mods -- my dd is artistic and adventurous and I recognize that she has a desire to try out different looks. Again, we just talk talk talk about it. Having been there myself, I can talk to her frankly about people's impressions and how they may affect her in ways she doesn't realize yet. I can offer her a lot of cautions. But I understand that this need for individuation is a natural process, and I try not to take it personally. When I remind myself that she is her own person, and not an extension of me, it makes it easier for me to cope with choices she makes that aren't what I wish she might do, or that I find a little embarrassing from a parental perspective.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> i can't imagine telling a nearly 17 year old she couldn't dye her hair.


As I'm pretty sure I said, I have NO PROBLEM with her dyeing her hair. NONE. I just want to get off my ass and get pictures done before she does something wild with it. She first dyed her hair at 10 or 11, with my help. I have no issue with dyed hair.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> But if she can't be bothered to make a phone call about the one thing on her list that you will allow, how much does she want any of this? When she says things like "I want a tattoo of the dark mark on my forearm" does she really mean it? Or does she just mean that it would be cool/funny/whatever. There's a big difference between thinking a particular tattoo would be cool, and deeply wanting the tattoo.


Well she sounds really set on that tattoo. But you have a point about not making the phone call herself.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverFish*
> 
> i can't imagine telling a nearly 17 year old she couldn't dye her hair. i started dying mine all sorts of colours when i was about 13. i can sort of understand not wanting her to get tattooed, but piercings are another thing i can't really imagine telling my older teenage daughter she wasn't "allowed" to do. i was 17 when i got my first tattoo and it is a truly beautiful piece of work. i had a fair number of piercings by then too, and the great thing about piercings is that they can almost always be removed without any issue... hence the only one still remaining is my nose piercing i got in my 20s.
> 
> ...


I read the rest of your post. I'm not thrilled with certain piercings (tongue mainly) but I have not said no to the others. It's the ear stretching I object to. If she want 10 holes in her ears, as long as they are regular size, then more power to her. I'm really feeling like most people haven't read beyond "almost 17, mom says NO, horrible mom".


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MovnMama*
> 
> As someone with tattoos, I agree with the above. Only to a certain point, however. When she's 45, if she still thinks that Harry Potter and the symbolism that goes with is is valuable and important to her, then hey, she can get the dark mark tattooed on her forehead, even. Whatever.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Hair dye seems to be a non-issue for you. I think that red would look great on her. 

As for piercings, well, I would say that it really behooves her to find out what all can go wrong before doing anything.

I had a tongue ring for years, and have dental damage from it. I had a friend who got her eyebrow pierced and the guy hit a big enough blood vessel that her eye swelled shut and she had to take it out. Additionally, those are frequently not permanent (as most surface type piercings like that aren't) and the body begins to push them out. Bellybuttons can do the same thing. So you have to think about that as well if you get those, and suddenly find that your piercing is much shallower or in a different place.

As for gauging, I have my ears stretched. I am currently at a 4g. According to my piercer (who is the DH of an MDC mom and has been doing it a *VERY* long time) you can get to a 2g before you start having issues with it not shrinking back down. There are also factors of how fast you stretched, and scar tissue involved that can factor in. At 4g, if I wear plugs, they just look like earrings. Honestly you cant tell unless I have in my fancy earrings that clearly are larger, or eyelets where you can see through the hole. I love mine, partially because he repierced them and they are no even for the first time ever, and because I like the more solid earrings I get to wear.

And I love my tattoos. 

All that being said - none of this will happen until kiddo is 18 (well the initial ears I might let her do earlier, but we'll see, and that's only because I know a good, reputable piercer who will do kids)

I'm with you on hair dye, I don't care what color she wants her hair, but everything else will wait - and I am a fairly modified person who is looking to get more tattoos very soon. I didn't get any until I was 21 though, and even my ears didn't get pierced until i was 12. Everything else has happened well after adulthood. (heck stretching my ears didn't happen until about 2 years ago!)


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Additionally, I have had several tattoo artists tell me it is a good idea to sit on a tattoo idea for a year before getting it. I have done that with pretty much all of mine, and it has been a good idea. I had some ideas that I looked at a year later and was glad I didn't get.


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## Kaydove (Jul 29, 2010)

One thing that's not neccessarily relevant to the situation but I want to point out about underage piercing - my DH was the first body piecer in Seattle and had a very successful business (now works at Microsoft, lol). He allowed underage piercing with a parent signature, until a parent threaten to sue him because the father allowed his daughter to get pierced and the mom was upset. From that point on, no more underage piercing! Even if they had both parents present. This is from a professional perspective. Nowadays, not all piercers allow underage piercing. My mom took me to get my nose pierced at 17, which 9 years later I still wear and love.


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## WCM (Dec 15, 2007)

I know this thread is about the bigger picture, and I'm in agreement with all of you saying it's her choice, but feel free to have many discussions with her about her choices, etc. I too dislike my first/earliest tattoo, but it's part of my path so I accept it. At least it's not a cartoon character. 

I'm posting because I've gotta' chime in on the stretched lobes thing. I was an apprentice piercer, and had it all done, every piercing we offered I had. And I stretched my lobes, nothing outrageous (this is 15 years ago) but to a 00. Now I'm a late-30's mama (who's removed all those piercings thanks) who cannot wear any earrings cause my ear holes are too big. I stopped wearing stretch-plugs 10 years ago, but no difference. Studs will just fall through and hook earrings fall out over the course of the day. I looked into surgically fixing it, it bugged me that much. For $500 they need to cut out the stretched hole, to make a wound, so it can heal back together. It'd have a bump on the bottom of the lobe because of the squished skin. Then they'd re-pierce after it all healed. I'd lose size in my already small lobes and have a wonky fold in the bottom. Awesome. So I've learned to live with my big holes that hold nothing but the plugs I no longer want to wear. Sigh.

I will be supporting my kids in their experiences modifying their looks, but will strongly, strongly try to talk them out of lobe stretching. No matter how fast or slow, or big you go, they stay stretched baby. And not all of us stay in that piercer-scene for life, thinking big lobes are the coolest.


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## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

My ds brought up tats and piercings/gauges a few times to which we responded we would not sign for, and after 18, he would have to finance on his own. We explained our reasoning, emphasizing the permanency of such decisions. We firmly believe these types of things need to gone into with eyes wide open. 18 has come and gone and no modifications yet.....

OTOH...hair is fine. He had a bleached blond streak when he was about 12.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WCM*
> 
> I know this thread is about the bigger picture, and I'm in agreement with all of you saying it's her choice, but feel free to have many discussions with her about her choices, etc. I too dislike my first/earliest tattoo, but it's part of my path so I accept it. At least it's not a cartoon character.
> 
> ...


This is really interesting to me. Mine - which are a bunch smaller than 00 for sure, will start to shrink down if I even sleep without something in them. I can see that if I left them I could get them back down in pretty short order. Not to a 20g necessarily, but easily back to a 12 or 14. What gauge would you say yours are at now?


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WCM*
> 
> I know this thread is about the bigger picture, and I'm in agreement with all of you saying it's her choice, but feel free to have many discussions with her about her choices, etc. I too dislike my first/earliest tattoo, but it's part of my path so I accept it. At least it's not a cartoon character.
> 
> ...


Word to this. I'll be 36 this year, have stretched lobes from way back, currently 3/4" and if I should tire of this look, find the $ for cosmetic surgery they will still never be the same as they were before I modified them BUT with full understanding that it was a permanent choice. No one ever told me fairy tales about temporarily permanent body modifications - that's not real life. Same goes for many I know who stretched much less, slowly and inside of the "safe" range. Our bodies are different and ear lobes are not an exception.

I also have tattoos from my late teen days that are not what I'd choose now, are not of the quality I'd accept. I love them anyhow but at least I could, if my grown child asked, offer some guidance. My first piece of advice for my own would be - all of this is as forever as your body lasts.

My oldest child is 16. If he wanted blue hair I'm fine with that so long as it doesn't interfere with employment or other activities. He did have his ear pierced but it fell out and he lost interest. It's not shocking to me that my kids are conservative next to me and I kind of wonder if they view body modifications as the stuff of old mom people, not rebellious in the least - I was surgically modified before my oldest kids can remember, their view of individuality is different. Anyway, I think it's important to respect and encourage autonomy but within the framework of being educated about the procedures.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kaydove*
> 
> He allowed underage piercing with a parent signature, until a parent threaten to sue him because the father allowed his daughter to get pierced and the mom was upset. From that point on, no more underage piercing!


Interesting!

My fun fact, that isn't completely relevant, is that in the city I live body piercing is so common and so many middle aged adults have them from YEARS ago, that ignored ones have become an issue in medical care. You have to remove nipple rings for a mammogram, but some woman have rings that haven't taken out in years and are a bit of an issue to remove. For surgery, ALL jewelry must be removed -- and people show up for surgery with belly rings and such that they haven't taken out in years and have grown in. And, if a person has a heart event and requires an AED, depending on where the piercing is, it can smoke and burn.

I don't have any tattoos or interesting piercings (only boring ones) but so many of my friends and peers do, and so many of my kids' parents have them, that I don't think my kids and their friends they will ever see body mods as an act of rebellion, a sign that they are part of the counter culture. Hopefully, that will help them make good choices about any body modifications, and do things they will really like, rather than just doing something to prove a point or make a statement.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Personally, I think because you are accepting of a lot of options (specific piercings, hair coloring) you have a little bit more credibility when you say, "Please don't do ____ because ____."

My oldest niece is 9 years younger than me and I watched her go round and round on this issue with her parents. She had several piercings that I thought were cool (and told her) and she was always doing something different with her hair. Many people freaked and her mom was always complaining.

Then she wanted a tattoo (this started around 16). Her mom saying, "no, no, no" didn't get anywhere--- she had said the same thing over and over before. But when I said it was a really bad idea to get one that young, that her body was still changing, that if she waited until she was 20 I would pay for the first hour, lol, she took it a little more seriously. I could show her my tattoo and say, "I'm not against tattoos, I just don't want you to make a permanent mistake." And she didn't get a tattoo. She still doesn't have one (that I know of, I know she didn't have one at 20) and now she is 26. I also talked to her about my concerns about eyebrow rings (movement/rejection) and tounge rings (teeth problems) but that didn't stop her.

For my own children, I hope they don't do anything too permanent before they are adults. I've talked and talked to them, though, about how tattoos & piercings are MEDICAL decisions and you don't just let your friend with a potato and a needle perform minor surgery on you! If they are going to get something pierced, I want it to be clean & safe. If that means they get something pierced I don't want them to, but I end up driving them to get it done, so be it. DD got her ears pierced at 9, DS doesn't have anything pierced yet.

DP used to tell kids about his horrible piercing times (he loves them, but he is very infection prone--- he had a nasty transverse lobe issue going on for years) and tattoos--- we have actually seen kids begging their parents, "Do I have to get that done ever?!?! Please don't make me." I think he should charge them. Since DP has, until January, had long dreads and DS has rotated between long hair, shorter hair and a mohawk, I'm pretty sure our kids understand we just don't care about their hair *too* much (it must be clean, that I do care about--- dreads cannot come about by just being gross).


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Irish, as an unrepentant adult HP fanatic I love the idea of your dd's tattoo choice. However I think the below remark summarizes the reality of a Dark Mark tattoo perfectly.

Quote:



> I think the dark mark on a forearm sounds like a kid tattoo, and not something an adult would want. It's like having a bumper sticker that says, "come to the dark side, we have cookies" except harder to remove. I can't imagine anyone in labor wanting to look at the dark mark. Has she run this past any one working in midwifery?


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Well we both got haircuts today, so I can book the appointment tomorrow. She changed hers a bit, and now has straight bangs, and it's just longer than shoulder length. She posted a picture on FB and a friend's mom said she looks like Hermoine Granger (I don't see it myself, hair is nothing like hers) so now she doesn't want to dye it!!!

She also put regular earrings in a couple of days ago, and she said there was no problem putting them in (it's been a couple of years since she wore earrings last). I pointed out that if that tiny hole hadn't healed in all that time, that a stretching almost certainly wouldn't heal on its own either. Hopefully she'll think.

There's been a lot of food for thought here, which I appreciate, even the posts that disagree with me, so thank you!


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## HuntressMother (Jun 4, 2009)

Hello there.

I myself am 22 years old and I have 2 children. I have many body mods including: tounge ring, lip ring, ears are streched, navel ring and septum ring. I also had a few more that I removed. I also have quite a few tattoos.

As far as your daughter, IMO, she is still quite young. I remember wanting all of those things when I was her age ( and i did get a few peircings before I was 18) and when i had them done later, as an adult- i was glad that I waited.

I believe that allowing a child to express his/her individuality through body mods is ok and can be quite important to some teens. I would be okay with her allowing to maybe cut/dye her hair how she wished and maybe a few peircings- but i would have her wait until she is older for the tattoos. The holes can grow up, a tattoo cant be removed that easily.

If you decide to allow her to mod her body, i would just be sure that shes aware that shes beautiful that way that she is- but also let her know that how she views herself is important as well. I would make the trips with her to the body mod shop(s) where she has them done, just to make sure that who ever does this for her is trained and clean. Maybe have her read a bit about after care for each of the mods that she is asking for before hand so that she understands it isnt always easy to look after. She really should do some thinking about each mod.

As far as getting a job, the pericings can be hidden by retainers which are little clear, unnoticable jewlery that goes into the peircing so that it cannot be seen. I have worn many myself and never had a problem- even when i was working at the hospital. Blue hair, however, isnt easily hidden. Maybe you can suggest that she try a hair color that will wash out after a few days so that she can decide if she likes it or not- before she has to bleach her hair ( unless her hair is naturally light! ).

Like i said, i have many now that I love, BUT im very glad that i didnt have them done at a young age. Im very glad that I waited.

Personally, i would maybe allow her to have her lip or nose done but not her tounge or eyebrow. My tounge ring took awhile to heal and can be troublesome in the healing process and the eyebrow rings tend to scar badly.

Whatever you choose is the right choice- your the parent. If you make her wait, im sure shell be glad that you did! Good luck!


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## objet_trouve (Jan 30, 2010)

Hair dye is an absolute blast and I'd love to recommend my own hair dye brand.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z203/lofnmusic/PICT2165.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z203/lofnmusic/l_144b3366dc6543174ad234695329df9a-1.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z203/lofnmusic/blue.jpg

(Special Effects- costs 10 dollars, doesn't fade quickly, doesn't look terrible faded, no animal testing, easily ordered online, bottle can be closed and the dye doesn't dry out, can be re-used)

I went through high school wearing short pink hair, dressing punk/ska style. I was covered in safety pins and made most of my own clothes. I believe it's one of the best decisions my parent's made, to let me dress how I want , especially before having to join a workforce that may not appreciate my style. It let me explore who I am and who I want to be, let me explore other people's perceptions, and taught me a lot of valuable lessons about pre-judging. It encouraged my creative side, encouraged me to DIY and to value money and recycle (I LOVE thrift stores now and hate chain stores, feel like they have too limited options most of the time, nothing unique). The only limit they gave me was nothing permanent on my body that could be seen by people at the grocery store unless I dress immodestly (naval rings for example, were acceptable as a teenager, but my lip ring had to wait until I was at least 18, and even then I waited until I was 23 and knew I could obtain devices that would keep it from closing but would hide my piercing, like these http://compare.ebay.com/like/130495324065?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=220592186392&crlp=1_263602_304662&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=fcdcaffa12c0a0e1e4e0b8e0ffc8be2b&itemid=130495324065&ff4=263602_304662).

I never dressed immodestly in high school, but still enjoyed my belly button piercing, mostly because it helped me overcome my crippling fear of needles.

Plastic surgery however, I'm inclined toward not being so approving of. These other modifications, piercings, tattoos, hair dye, always encouraged a sense of being myself, enjoying and ornamenting my body, plastic surgery just seems like the opposite of that, changing because you don't like your body, not because you are enjoying it. That's how it seems to me anyway. I've considered plastic surgery for my weight issues, because I gained weight from medical problems and have had a lot of trouble losing it, so I can understand wanting to fix stuff, but I'm still inclined to encourage loving yourself as you are, adding for fun or for expressing yourself, not to hide something you aren't comfortable with.

Anyway, whatever you do, be calm and reason with your kid. You really don't want them deciding to do things to get revenge on you for perceived meanness. It would suck to have a tattoo you'd regret later that you got out of angst. Always explain why they can't, and hell, why they can do things. Some kids want this stuff so they can feel adult, and "because I said no" feels like child treatment, and can make them want to rebel with it. My appearance in high school was non-rebellious. My parents loved it, and I loved telling my friends how cool my parents were. We connected over it, and I think that's totally valuable. Even when I did stuff they thought was ugly (one parent likes my lip ring, the other doesn't), they still liked that I feel like I can be myself, be smart about my choices, and have some fun.

That's my view anyway.

.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Long thread and I haven't read all the replies.

I did want to tell you about our recent trip to Manhattan, which happened to fall over St. Patrick's Day. By coincidence, DS has his hair in a green mohawk right now. It was blue, but it's faded to green. While watching the parade, he had several shoutouts from people who were marching - mostly seniors and veterans. They loved his hair. One elderly vet also had his hair dyed green.

On another occasion, when he and DH went out to dinner, the host quietly moved them from the back of the line right to a table, because "You guys look like you are a lot more fun than the others in line".

Many years ago, I agreed to let my children dye their hair and get single piercings in their ears. They were both less than 8 y.o. at the time and they both begged to do it. They pretty much wear what they want, with exceptions for certain social occasions - and they always check with me about dressing for these occasions. They know I'd prefer it if they dressed in preppy cargo pants, khakis and polo shirts, but I try not to interfere with what they wear. Even though I think they would like to get tattoos and more piercings, they don't and they don't complain about it since they have almost complete freedom of personal expression otherwise. I'm not sure how much longer that will last now that DS is over 18, but I am content that their personal expression was limited to temporary changes to their personal appearance (hair, clothes, accessories) until they reach adulthood.

Oh, and I have a series of gorgeous studio photos taken a couple of years ago, before DS shaved his hair into a mohawk the first time. I made the same deal, asking him to wait on changing his hair until we had the studio photos done. We have many, many photos of him and his crazy hair (red, blue, green, mohawk, totally bald etc.) since then, and I treasure all of them - before and after.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> Many years ago, I agreed to let my children dye their hair and get single piercings in their ears. They were both less than 8 y.o. at the time and they both begged to do it. They pretty much wear what they want, with exceptions for certain social occasions - and they always check with me about dressing for these occasions. They know I'd prefer it if they dressed in preppy cargo pants, khakis and polo shirts, but I try not to interfere with what they wear. Even though I think they would like to get tattoos and more piercings, they don't and they don't complain about it since they have almost complete freedom of personal expression otherwise. I'm not sure how much longer that will last now that DS is over 18, but I am content that their personal expression was limited to temporary changes to their personal appearance (hair, clothes, accessories) until they reach adulthood.


You're an inspiration. I'm hoping I can say the same thing in another 10 years (when my kids are 19 & 22)!


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> 
> You're an inspiration. I'm hoping I can say the same thing in another 10 years (when my kids are 19 & 22)!


Thanks! It isn't always easy, because we tend to live in conservative, professional neighbourhoods and I've had to ignore some comments and looks from some people. I've often wondered if agreeing to a few discreet tattoos or piercings wouldn't have been so much easier on me, if it meant they regularly dressed more conservatively overall. Every morning when DS walks out the door in a ripped up, studded and patched denim jacket, torn black skinny leg jeans and knee high Doc Martens, I would almost trade him a tattoo and a piercing to see him in a nice pair of khakis and a sweater vest







!!

The funniest thing of all is that DD always asks for my fashion advice and an opinion on what she is wearing almost every day







. She thinks my clothes are terribly boring!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I tend to be pretty okay with things like hair cutting/coloring & simple piercing. Basically, anything that can be changed or concealed at some point if need be is totally fine with me. At that age, my general feeling is that they might not have reached a point where their adult aspirations are fully in view. Because of that, I am not so okay with more permanent, clearly visible things like facial piercing, stretching, prominent tattoos etc. The reason being, I have witnessed multiple instances where such things have prevented perfectly capable, good people from getting professional jobs they wanted.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My kids can do whatever they want to do with their hair. Hair grows back. They can get their earlobes pierced once they are 12, and I am convinced they wil take care of them.

Anything else they can do when they are entirely off my dime, and are self supporting. Should they decide to get a tattoo, etc., while I am supporting them, that support will end abruptly, and they will forfeit us paying for their college education. It is illegal to tattoo a minor in my state. We have made our position on this crystal clear from the time they were very young and they know we don't make idle threats.


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
> 
> Actually she isn't. Stretching doesn't just mean 4 gauge or whatever. You can stretch up to a certain size and it will shrink back. Off the top of my head I can't remember the limit either, but you start where you are and stop where you want and what is safe depending on a variety of factors.


To an extent. My ears were stretched to about a 0 with a flanged plug--so in between 0 and 00. After nearly a year of no piercings (basically coz I lost jewelry and couldn't afford new stuff), they still will hold a size 2 plug easily, and with no jewelry, the holes shrink up, but still have a very different "stretched hole" look--does NOT look the same as a tiny "regular" piercing hole.

Gauging IS a permanent body modification--it will shrink down a bit but will never be exactly the same as an unstretched ear piercing--that's what my piercer says!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

First: I think any shade of red (or purple!) would look great on her!

My DD is 11 and is thinking about body mod a lot, but doesn't want any at this point. But we've talked about it a lot (she did a presentation on the topic in class, where she decided a labret was not her thing  ).

I told her I would make the medical-side decisions until I believe she can take those herself, whichever age that is. Once she's 16 (here in the Netherlands) I have no legal vote, but we'll get there when we do. Until that age, most body mod artists won't deal with her, anyway.

If your DD has been into the Dark Mark for a while, I would let her get it. It's weird and childish to us, but I'm sure that many people in her generation will view it as a sign of their younger years once they grow up, like the Grease posters were to me. But for tattoos and piercings beyond standard and generally-acknowledged-as-unproblematic (anywhere on the ears, nose, eyebrow, belly button) I would only request my child to think it over for a while - few months at least. I would voe mouth piercings till 16, quoting the medical issues.

In my generation, body mod was mostly for weirdos. But it's so mainstream now, I can't really imagine our children being outcasts with their mods. So many entertainment and sports stars have them, and so many CEOs and business people, they will not have to deal with the same prejudice we did. And once she has enough sense to foresee the effect of her current choices, who am I to stop her? Even if she might change her mind later - I"m still changing my mind a lot, and I would rather my kid be okay with the implications of changing her mind than simply bowing down to mine.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *simonee*
> 
> In my generation, body mod was mostly for weirdos. But it's so mainstream now, I can't really imagine our children being outcasts with their mods. So many entertainment and sports stars have them, and so many CEOs and business people, they will not have to deal with the same prejudice we did.


I don't agree with this, at least for Americans. I can't speak on what being modified was like before the early 90's but it still carries a heavy stigma and it can limit your options. I feel it's extremely important to understand the social ramifications.


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## urbangoddess2 (Feb 17, 2011)

If that's what she wants, then let her get them and pay for them. If you don't agree, just don't give your consent (if where you live requires they be of a certain age). Piercing is a personal choice that is not worth a fight, in my opinion. I never had problems getting a job with my piercings, but I did have to take many of them out for work (I was restricted to two sets of earrings, no more!). Blue hair was also a bad choice for me (Starbucks has/had a policy of "no unnatural haircolours" so I had to dye it brown). In general, though, hair dye is there to experiment with and as long as it's not done too often, it doesn't damage hair (at least mine hasn't been and I've been dying it for 17 years)


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## melodyev (Mar 5, 2011)

I have three teenage girls, all of which have very different personalities and express them in very different ways. My oldest has her tongue pierced. My 16 yr old loves to change her hair color. I tease her that she changes it like she changes her underwear. She has had blue, green, pink, black, red, blonde, teal...I don't think there is anything wrong with it. She is trying to find herself and be an individual at the same time. She gauged her ears a few months ago, but I didn't let her go so big they wouldn't go back to normal. She was over that faze fairly quickly. Now she wants to get snake bites. I am making her wait a few months to make sure she truly wants them. My 13 yr old has dyed her hair, although pretty normal colors. She wants her belly button pierced, but I am making her wait a few years for that one. When it comes to tattoos and piercings, I think they should think about it seriously so they know that is what they want. No tattoos for my kids until they are older, though. That is something I don't think kids should make a decision about.


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## oldhippiemom52 (Jan 24, 2011)

Whoa.....I would definitely re-think the "no more support unless you do it our way" paradigm. That's what gets parents and children into more trouble than almost anything else. Permanent body modification obviously has its own set of significant consequences and needs to be thought through very carefully. As a parent, I would never have offered to pay for the procedure itself; that would be up to the kids. But to withdraw financial and/or educational support if they make those choices is not the way to go about things. They will do it anyway, out of independence or rebellion. Then, minus support, they will be unable to create lives for themselves. You don't want to deal with the ramifications of that, trust me. I've seen it more than once.

My own children were free to do what they wanted. Fortunately, all my older son wanted was his ears pierced and his hair bleached at the tips. He was 15 at the time. No problem, and you know what? He outgrew it by the time he started college. My younger one pierced his ear freshman year in college. He also outgrew it. There were no fights, no threats, no emotional blackmail. Kids need to discover who they are, BUT they also need to understand the consequences of they take it too far. Gauging looks really grotesque to me, but if they wanted to do it they'd get the usual "think it through carefully and here's why, but I'll support what you decide.

My sons, now 21 and 24, are both talking about getting a tattoo. All I've done is remind them to put it in an inconspicuous place because employers and landlords are conservative and judgemental. Mind you, these are both professionals, as am I. My 24 year-old is a chemist and my 21 year-old is about to be earn his degee in math/economics. I've seen far too many parents try to take control of their children's lives by playing the money card, and it fails miserably. The kids are going to do what they want regardless, and in the final analysis all that does is destroy your relationship. Think very carefully here.


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## silverdragon16 (Mar 14, 2011)

I do have a suggestion on the whole tattoo thing.

When I was 16 I wanted a tattoo, it happened to be a cross with my moms initials underneath it. I knew I wasn't going to be able to get it until I was at least 18, so I got it as a hena tattoo, which if you're not familiar is basically an ink that goes on the skin and comes off in a few weeks. I ended up doing it a few times and not only did it help with how big and where I wanted to put it but it also really helped to know that I did really want it.

I got it tattooed on my left forearm when I was 18, but added a red rose around the cross. Now maybe because it's in honor of my mother who passed away when I was 12, but I still love it to this day and it will always be my favorite tattoo.

Anyway, my point is, maybe if you let her get it in a non permanent way, she may not want it any more.


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## carolm1 (Mar 29, 2011)

Im 21 so im pretty young, and at hot topic they got this cool hair dye. Its not perminate and she can buy a few packets ( its $2 for it one) and its a wide range of colors. I think it stays in for a few days to a week or two not sure. But most places like sallys only has hair dye for blue, purple and a dark red color or grey/silver. If she gets facial pericings and ends up with a job they will make her take them out for a professional look. Tattoos can be hidden easily, unless you get them on your arm then you have to wear long sleeved shirts which during the summer isnt fun and most tattoo artist wont let any one get a tattoo under the age or 18 any way (had a friend that ran his own shop and even if a parent agreed he wouldnt do it not sure if thats every where). The ear streaching is really gross. Its very unattractive weither its guys or girls, and if your going to sew it back up why get it in the first place?


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## PatienceAndLove (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with the PP who mentioned doing the tat in henna first. Call around to the tat shops in your area and see if they do henna. I know a few around here do. I would also talk to your DD about tat placement. So she wants to get a dark mark? Fine. But the forearm is not a good choice. Maybe the upper arm? Doing the tat in henna first will probably help you.


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## Superman5000 (Mar 29, 2011)

you can stretch your ears "Gage" so long as you do it properly. do "Gage up" or make the hole bigger. the numbers get smaller. to "Gage down" you have to "SLOWLY" and i say that meaningfully because if you try to gage down to fast it can cause perminant damage to your ear. but depending on the style or what your daughters attire is. gaging might not be the best idea. i see alot of girls in my highschool. gage their ears and use toung rings. it looks alright i guess. tattoos, are a most deffinant NO yes it make you feel a little cooler. but in the end guys will think differently of her. if you get what im saying?. nose rings, if you get he side ones look really cute on most girls, because you can get the small gem pins. and you wont really see it that well. belly button peircings, shell get it and regret ir. my girlfriend has one and she complains every time she takes it out to clean it. because they never "heal" all tho they are super cute on almost all girls, take that with great caution, if she does get that one. itll be a good laugh for you, it was for me when my girlfriend got hers! she couldnt even sit down for two weeks almost!

so as a 17 year old guy. nose peircing should be the ONLY facial peircing any girl should get. toung rings, their annoying, 7\10 girls have them, they sit and play with them all day, and there just annoying when you try to talk to them because they sit their and play with the ring in their teeth while your talking.

before you even think about taking her to get a toung or belly button, make sure the artist has ALOT of experience with that particular incision. one wrong incision in the toung and your daughter goes from track star to cripple in seconds.  ive seen it done. good luck!


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## les_oiseau (Apr 9, 2010)

I would let her dye her hair. My (attempted) approach with my kids is that, even when I wouldn't do it myself, or don't neccesarily approve, I will let them do it if it is not 1. morally wrong, or 2. permanent. There is no way I'd take my 16yo to get a tattoo, for any reason. I am 26 and don't think my mind fully matured until the past couple years. I regret most of the things I did when I was 16, and 18. I would make her do a lot of research on scar tissue resulting from peircings before giving it any serious thought. If she felt the risk was worth it, I would make it clear that I would not pay for any removal of scar tissue, and MIGHT let her do it. I would not let her gauge her peircings


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## Eyelet (Feb 9, 2009)

My husband is a tattoo artist and he and I are both heavily tattooed. Our children haven't expressed an interest in getting body modifications yet, but if/when they do we've decided that they will have to wait until they're 18 to get tattoos.

Your daughter is almost 17... if she still wants this tattoo in a year at age18 then by all means let her if she understands the responsibility and life altering decision that it is.

My ears are guaged at 0. I can wear certain french hook earrings, but my holes are too stretched to wear studs or post back earrings. I personally don't mind as I prefer my plugs for everyday wear.

Body modifications can be a positive and wonderful thing. Tattoos are ancient and for some people, an ingrained need for self-identification. But only if it comes from a responsible and fully researched point of view. I would definitely not allow rash or impulsive modifications...

Tattoos and jobs. It can be done. I'm fully sleeved and a semi-professional. I wear long sleeves at work to cover my tattoos.

I would make sure she's educated on body modification before she proceeds... have her read a book on the matter. Talk to artists. This is not something to go into lightly.


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## jdsf (Apr 6, 2011)

We all have gauged ears over here, even my 10.5 year old DD (although very small). Ear gauging is only as permanent as a healed ear piercing. Unless you blow your hole out, they will always shrink back up, especially on a young person. I have gotten up to a 00 three separate times and have had no problem with them "going back to normal". This is also coming from a parent that wouldn't let a child bleach their hair until they were 13, not because I have problems with dyed hair but because hair bleach is super harsh. I have my moments of being a little on the overprotective side, but I also support children's autonomy especially when it comes to their bodies. If I don't give a child the tools to do something safely, they will seek it out on their own and do it anyway, perhaps unsafely. I would never condone anything permanent, but piercings, gauging (within reason), and hair dye or crazy hair styles are not going to prevent a child from growing up to be a successful adult. In my experience, if they don't get it out of their system when they're a teenager, it will just carry over into their adult life. I was lucky enough to have a mother who respected my opinions and let me wear whatever I wanted, even though my curfew was a good two hours earlier than everyone else's, and I think it's made me more centered as an adult, to have a better gauge on who I am having tried many things in my life. I don't see the harm here, and kids who feel heard and trusted to make their own decisions are generally more accountable and grounded.


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