# Spinoff: GD, eating, and sugar



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

We have on ongoing issue with sugar with ds1. I don't ever want food to be a battle, and I certainly don't force him to eat. I've never been into praise or threats to get children to eat, and I believe in letting him follow his body's cues as to what he wants to eat when. However, I also believe that sugar is addictive and that at this age I am responsible for guiding his consumption of sugar. But I am not always sure about how to go about doing that.

First, let me say that we have tried the "whatever we have in the house is up for grabs." It wasn't healthy. We could have no sugary treats whatsoever but he would ask to eat the sugar plain out of the cupboard. If we went out to dinner he would just want soda pop. If we were at his grandparent's house he would only eat ice cream. Actually, "only" isn't entirely correct. He would first eat the junk and then eat a little food. But the main problem is that his behavior is horrible if he eats too much sugar, so if nothing else it's not working for us as a family to have to deal with his sugar behavior if he's not limited.

But, of course, the problem is that I get cornered into what begins to resemble a "one more bite" routine. I don't want to do that. I don't want to tell ds how much to eat. I talk about eating whatever feels good for his body, but then he takes one bite of chicken and then and wants "something sugary."

I just sometimes don't know what to do when he asks for sugary stuff before he's eaten.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I haven't had to address this personally yet, as my daughter is young, but I have a friend who has a 1-sugary-treat-a-day limit for everyone in the family, including the parents. It seems to work well for them. Soda counts, as does ice cream, candy bars, etc. The 5 year old and his mother had a long conversation about whether or not his waffle with maple syrup and whipped cream counted when we went to brunch. (It did.)


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

KristiMetz has posted some great info on this in the past. Her advice has actually helped us a LOT. Basically, if there is a food or treat that DD likes, we keep some in the house, even if it's something totally not good for her, we keep some here. Whenever she wants something, she can have it, whatever it is. I don't say, "Wouldn't you rather have broccoli?" when she asks for a sucker. I don't tell her, "We have apples, oranges, carrots and yogurt if you want one of those things" when she asks for popcorn. I just give it to her and pretend like I could care less what she eats. I smile and act happy about it. (This is SO hard for me!) It works WONDERS for us though.

DD will ask for something I'd rather her not have anywhere from one to five times a day. But this is what happens: "Mommy, I want sucker." I cringe inside, then get her a sucker and say, "Here you go, honey." She licks it 4 times, then says, "Don't want it. Put it way." I then immediately clean her teeth (she had dental problems before she had ever tasted sugar in her life) and that's that. Sometimes she'll do that 5 times a day. Usually, it's once or twice. But inevitably, she ends up eating LESS junkfood than she did when I limited her. Whenever I refused to keep things like suckers (her favorite) in the house, she would eat a whole sucker any time she got her hands on one -the WHOLE thing. But now she doesn't eat the equivalent of an entire sucker in a week. Heck, probably not even in three weeks. The novelty is gone because I gave her access to then, rather than refusing to keep them in the house, or only allowing her X number, etc.

It's just a thought...I hope KristiMetz comes - she can explain it much better.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Plummeting, it sounds like that is what the OP was doing and it isn't working for them.

I am wondering about how I will approach this issue in the future b/c I feel that I am addicted to sugar in the same way that I used to be addicted to cigarettes, and I do not think that high-sugar junk foods are the same as whole foods. No one gets "addicted" to apples, for instance, but the brain responds to refined sugar differently. Highly processed junk food does not occur in nature and so I don't think we can expect our bodies or our brains to be able to self-regulate with these substances in the same way that they can with whole foods. I think that for some children, who are not prone to be addicted to sugar/carbs, letting them self-regulate their food intake could work. However, for many (dare I say most?) children, their "natural" self-regulatory system is going to be totally stampeded by the lust for sugar, and they will *never* be able to self-regulate. I cannot self-regulate with sugar and I am 30 years old. I cannot keep junk in the house because it would always - always - displace healthy whole foods. To me, it is not fair to demand something of a child that they are not capable of doing - and self-regulating intake of junk foods clearly falls under that heading for MOST children, and probably mine since she is mine and DH's daughter!







I would no sooner keep sugary treats in the house and let her have unfettered access to them than I would do that for myself. It would be neglectful parenting IMO.

But I am always interested in hearing about how people deal with the junk food issues. I am very aware that making sugar the "forbidden fruit" can have the opposite effect from that desired.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Plummeting, it sounds like that is what the OP was doing and it isn't working for them.

No, it's not at all what she was doing. She specifically said,

Quote:

First, let me say that we have tried the "whatever we have in the house is up for grabs." It wasn't healthy. We could have no sugary treats whatsoever but he would ask to eat the sugar plain out of the cupboard.
She was limiting his food choices by not keeping certain foods in the house, so that he wouldn't have access to them. I am saying to KEEP those foods in the house and allow him free access to them. Totally, totally different.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
To me, it is not fair to demand something of a child that they are not capable of doing - and self-regulating intake of junk foods clearly falls under that heading for MOST children, and probably mine since she is mine and DH's daughter!







I would no sooner keep sugary treats in the house and let her have unfettered access to them than I would do that for myself. It would be neglectful parenting IMO.

Are you saying that, in your opinion, I'm practicing neglectful parenting? Or that if my daughter ate sugar all day, I would be doig so? Hopefully the second.









Have you ever wondered *why* you can't control your eating habits? Has it ever occured to you that it may be because of the attitudes and controls about food that your own parents enforced upon you as a child? It's worth considering.

Do you believe that the only reason my daugher isn't a sugar junkie is because I and her father are not junkfood junkies? Let me rid you of that notion. I have a *very* hard time not eating junk. I happen to LOVE brownies. I happen to LOVE ice cream. I happen to LOVE potato chips. If I didn't know they weren't good for me, I would eat them all day long. My husband LOVES those snack crackers filled with cheese. He LOVES Burger King. He LOVES chocolate chip cookies. He exercises much less control over his own diet than I do over mine. DD doesn't have some special gene that protects her from craving junk food, but she still manages to choose a very healthy diet. (Although I would have preferred she didn't eat a whole jar of homemade, organic walnut butter in 4 days last week.







Oh yes, and it had only 1 teaspoon of honey as a sweetener in the whole pint.)


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

nak so must be short

we also do what plummeting does. some days it bites us in the arse and he eats crap all day. but those days are rare. and i can't tell you how great it feels when i ask my son what he wants for dinner and he proudly says "tofu and grapes, please?" ahhhh.









of course, this following a lunch of goldfish and cookies.







: but anyway! i think that your dc is old enough (5yo, right OP?) to *talk* about self-regulation. tell him about how we all need to be careful about what we put into our bodies. this could even be combined with a little mini anatomy/digestive lesson. talk about what happens to the food when we put it in our mouths. talk about how we need healthy food to keep our bodies running smoothly,to have enough energy, AND to help us digest the yummy treats we like. instead of an "in the moment" one more bite routine, you could talk about how each day we need to eat a certain amount of good stuff so that our bodies are ready to digest the yummy not-so-good-for-us stuff. and let him start thinking about it, start examining his own diet, talking about what YOU'RE eating and what he's eating and how balanced it is, etc.

i'd also suggest finding some very yummy, sweet healthy alternatives. some applesauce or a sandwich of sunbutter and honey (a new discovery for me, thanks captaincrunchy!). you probably have already done this.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Can you talk to him about possible solutions?

Maybe without using words like "junk" and "addiction" and "control"?

Even if we're not actively prohibiting, sometimes our negative attitudes can really come through to our kids. And knowing that they're on "shaky ground" with the limits lifted, might cause binging behavior--b/c they're pretty sure that even though you're saying, "OK." that permission probably isn't going to last very long.

We don't limit (neglectful!







), and we deal with a lot of food allergies/sensitivities. Last night my son (4.5) and I discussed him giving up potato for a few days--just to see if that was the root of some reactions he's been having. And even though he LOVES his Cape Cod potato chips and french fries are pretty much the ONLY thing he can eat in a restaurant, he was cool with it. Mostly because he knows it's up to him. So, I'll remind him today when he'll likely ask for something potato, but ultimately it's his call.

Good luck!


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## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

Hmm, I'm sort of naturally done what Plummeting described. Mainly because, growing up, I was given access to any food in the house. My mother bought a lot of junk food. She also cooked dinner every night, even thought it wasn't the healthiest of stuff all the time, it included veggies and whatnot. So I ate whatever, and I drank a lot of soda. DH on the other hand had a more strict diet. He couldn't have soda or fast food or junk food. His mom bought healthier foods and made him eat those.

He is overweight and addicted to soda and fast food. I am not. So while it may not be the same situation for everyone, I think the way we were brought up regarding food really has affected us.

Anyway, I let my 2yr old have anything she wants in the house that's reasonable (I'm not making her mac and cheese after I've made lunch already). Sometimes she'll choose to have 5 chocolates (UGH) but so, so rarely. Usually she asks for milk or water, now and then she'll ask for juice or even some soda. She prefers to snack on oranges, apples, cheese slices, whatever. She loves oatmeal. She loves tomatoes. Also, we have a LOT of junk food in the house.

To the OP, you mentioned limiting what is in the house. But have you actually just "let it go"? Your child (sorry I don't remember if girl or boy) might overdose on all the junk for a while, but I do think *most* children are capable of self-regulating foods, especially IF they have been eating the healthier foods since they started eating solids.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I do limit, we have the same issues as you Oceanbaby. My ds gets aggressive and hyperactive when he has sugar. He has also stopped napping in the afternoon so that is a very difficult time for us both.
Ds gets a choice. He can have something sweet after breakfast. He gets his choice, so it's not always sweets, sometimes it's potato chips, etc. That's usually when we go outside to play or go for a walk anyway, so being hyper, loud and a bit aggressive is more managable for me then.
I also let him have a fruit popsicle for dessert each night. He is so exhausted by then that a fruit pop won't keep him awake. He knows he's going to get these things daily, if he wants them.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

hmmmm. I try to not limit what ds eats. We eat pretty healthy in this house, and we tend to have fruit and veggies a lot. The main junk in this house consists of tortillas and salsa, and triscuits and cheese. And the chocolate (gross cheap chocolate) that we had before we tried really hard to go no-junk, because ds already has cavities that are getting worse by the second. But that's been there a while, so...
I also have some canned fruit and veggies (ok, ok I know...but its better than junk- and I rinse it before he eats it) in a bottom cupboard where he can see it, and get it to ask me for it. That way when he's hungry, his first idea isn't something junky.
If he sees something that is junky that he wants, I don't say no. I kinda just let it happen.
We do have some xylitol candies that he likes. And he doesn't really regulate that very well. And when we go to my family's houses, they have candy all over the place. And he pretty much eats as much as I'll let him. I try to let it go until I just can't stand the thought of him having one more bite, then I just say no, and try to redirect to something a bit better. Actually, after that point, he's pretty easy to redirect lol. So maybe there is some semblence of regulation there. But, we do try prevention









Perhaps I could try to not limit at all. That didn't work a few months ago, but he's only 22 mos now, so that could change. But really, this way isn't ending in any power struggles. And it seems that he's getting less and less interested in the junk food at my family's houses. So...

I did read an article that referred to a study where kids who had juice on a regular basis, and had candy more than once a week, were more prone to have cavities. The toothbrushing habits of both groups were the same.
So (like has been said here before) sugar is a HUGE factor in cavities (obviously)- bigger even than toothbrushing. At least according to that study.


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## VelmaLou (Jan 8, 2006)

Besides fruit my dd eats dried prunes, dried apricots, dried figs, raisins, dark chocolate, toast with honey. If she wants something sweet to drink she can have tea sweetened with honey. Otherwise it's water. That's all there is in this house. The problems arise occasionally when we're out.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

I have been thinking about this all morning. We don't take either extreme position in our house. I have a sweet tooth, my dh does not, but he likes his carby snacks, like pretzels, etc. I agree that parents should not make a big deal about any kind of food with their kids, but I think we do have to set some limits.

We limit the time that we can eat sugary stuff. We don't eat any sweets in the morning. Breakfast must be healthy and not consist of sugar cereals, poptarts (things I don't buy anyway), or any other junky stuff. With the occasional exception of pancakes or waffles with syrup, the whole family sticks to this rule. I started it for myself years ago, before children because high sugar in the morning just makes me tired and cranky. And, I really believe that we all need to start our day with healthy foods.

Also, I believe it is a much more complex issue than having access to junk foods or not to learn self-control. Food additives like high-fructoce corn syrup over ride the bodies natural ability to regulate quantity. A child (and many adults) that has unlimited access to this kind of junk food is not going to be able to self-regulate. Also, different people crave different types of foods. We are all a little different genetically and some of us have stronger sweet tooths (sweet teeth? lol) than others. That is like arguing nature vs. nurture. Is my sweet tooth because of the way I was raised or is it because of my genetics? Either way, I KNOW that sweets are bad for me and I have even cut sugar out for weeks at a time, but ultimately, they get the best of me now and again. By making little rules for myself, I am able to keep myself from having a weight problem. But, how is a child, even armed with this knowledge going to be able to completely control themselves given unlimited access if an adult can't?

My mom never bought sugar cereal or poptarts for us, and I don't crave those now as an adult. And potato chips and soda were for special occasions. I never had the desire to binge on those things even though they were mostly forbidden in our house. But, I do sometimes binge on things that were readily available. Cookies and cake, etc. Those are the kinds of sweets that I love, not the forbidden stuff.

I also have and continue to educate my oldest about what is healthy and what is not. He understands, but that doesn't mean that he always complies or wants to comply. We do have a certain amount of junk in our house. But, our house is not stocked with it always. I do buy healthier snacks as well, but my dh and I are not going to live a life without ice cream and don't want our kids to either - lol.

Another thing I have done is make some fruits into "treats". I will make a big deal out of the kids each getting to pick a special apple from the myriad of apples they have at the grocery store. I do buy the bagged apples for every day eating, but if my ds gets to pick out a granny smith that is all his own, he is happy. We have had family movie nights where out "treats" are our own special apples.

I also make a big deal about picking local fruits when in season. I'm already getting excited for strawberry season, which is soon here. And, I'm talking it up to my kids. "I can't wait until we can go strawberry picking" I say often to get them excited too.

Other things I do this with are fresh pinapple, watermelon, blueberries, etc. Even though we eat a lot of fruit, I try to make it seem like a treat too. Our common everyday fruits, like bananas and macintosh apples are always there. But, there is something special about a box of clementines in January because we don't get them any other time of year. I will often use the phrase "what a treat this is". So, my boys think it is special too. I want them to think of these kinds of things when they think of the word "treat", not lollipops or chocolate cake.

Also, I don't mean to offend anyone, but when my oldest was 2 and 3 years old, it WAS much easier to avoid the junky stuff with him. This is an issue that gets harder to deal with as your kids get older and they realize that other kids get to eat all kinds of junk. They start to wonder why they can't. As with many things, compromise is the key.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Just as Oakberry said I also limit My DD's choices. However she is 2.8 yrs old & not 5 like your son. I do talk to her about things we consider to be bad foods & how they can hurt her body. I too would eat junk food if it were in my home & this is why I have a hard & fast rule that it doesn't come in.

I grew up eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted (My mom worked in a licorice factory & candy factory so we had it ALL the time). I happen to be the only one of my sibilings who was able to self regulate & now I won't touch the stuff. They eat crap all the time. Being exposed to sugar all the time only made them want it more. It had the opposite affect on me though. I find by limiting the amount of sugar DD has, that when she does have ice cream or anyhting else very sweet she tends to not eat all of it---her taste buds are used to something more bland.

So I don't believe all children can be trusted to self-regulate & eventually figure out that this stuff is bad for their body. I feel it's my job to provide healthy snacks, consistent with mine & DH's beliefs, & my DC can chose from those.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Also, I don't mean to offend anyone, but when my oldest was 2 and 3 years old, it WAS much easier to avoid the junky stuff with him. This is an issue that gets harder to deal with as your kids get older and they realize that other kids get to eat all kinds of junk. They start to wonder why they can't. As with many things, compromise is the key

So true Mama.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Also, I believe it is a much more complex issue than having access to junk foods or not to learn self-control. Food additives like high-fructoce corn syrup over ride the bodies natural ability to regulate quantity. A child (and many adults) that has unlimited access to this kind of junk food is not going to be able to self-regulate. Also, different people crave different types of foods. We are all a little different genetically and some of us have stronger sweet tooths (sweet teeth? lol) than others.









:
My brother, sister and I were all raised with the same diet, and same approach to food. I'm a complete sugar junkie. I have to monitor myself constantly to keep on top of it. I've found that having a couple hard-boiled eggs every morning helps, but it took me a long time to find that solution, because boiled eggs are the only protein source I could find that didn't want to make me gag first thing in the morning. That said...I don't eat white bread (except dinner rolls at restaurants and garlic bread), but my brother and sister won't eat anything else. My brother and sister will both happily start the day with a big plate of bacon and fried eggs, which I wouldn't touch. I eat meat...probably more than many people here...but I eat a fraction of what my brother and sister both eat. I'm the _only_ one in my family with a real sweet tooth. I do think it's genetic - there are complicated psychological factors involved, as well...but they're also present for my sister. (In a nutshell, we were sexually abused, and the man's wife bought us off with junk food.)

DS1 has never had much interest in sugar, until recently. He'd end up throwing out half his Halloween candy every year, for instance. Since he hit puberty, he's been wanting more sugar, but he doesn't seem to have a real sweet tooth. DD, on the other hand, is a whole different story! She's only three, and I found her eating the brown sugar out of the bag in handfuls yesterday. If I let her, she'd live on sugar all day - this has happened (birthday parties and such). Sometimes, she might do what a pp mentioned, and take one bite, then leave it...but she's _far_ more likely to do that with carrots, bananas, yogurt, etc. than with sugary treats. She's also _extremely_ difficult to deal with if she gets a lot of sugar - she's up and down like a yo-yo, grumpy and prone to tears. There's no way she needs to be eating a lot of junk food. DS2 is still mostly breastfed, and hasn't had any sugary stuff yet (he's not quite 10 months!), so I don't know what he's going to be like.

I'm convinced that a lot of this is nature, not nurture. But, I don't have answers....I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with dd's sugar "thing".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
IAnother thing I have done is make some fruits into "treats". I will make a big deal out of the kids each getting to pick a special apple from the myriad of apples they have at the grocery store. I do buy the bagged apples for every day eating, but if my ds gets to pick out a granny smith that is all his own, he is happy. We have had family movie nights where out "treats" are our own special apples.

I also make a big deal about picking local fruits when in season. I'm already getting excited for strawberry season, which is soon here. And, I'm talking it up to my kids. "I can't wait until we can go strawberry picking" I say often to get them excited too.

Other things I do this with are fresh pinapple, watermelon, blueberries, etc. Even though we eat a lot of fruit, I try to make it seem like a treat too. Our common everyday fruits, like bananas and macintosh apples are always there. But, there is something special about a box of clementines in January because we don't get them any other time of year. I will often use the phrase "what a treat this is". So, my boys think it is special too. I want them to think of these kinds of things when they think of the word "treat", not lollipops or chocolate cake.

I do this to some extent. There's nothing that gets ds1 and dd as hyped up as seeing me come home with mangoes. They _love_ them. And, we do dried fruit, as well...dd loves dates, dried cranberries and dried mango _almost_ as much as candy.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm reading Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's book Sleepless in America about sleep deficiencies in children...there are links between lack of sleep and sugar cravings...haven't gotten to that chapter yet







, but it looks so interesting!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

georgia: I don't know about kids, but from personal experience, there are definitely links! When I was in the last few months with my ex-husband, and life was really awful, I didn't get much sleep. Between my ex and the job I had at the time, my stress levels were in orbit, which always causes me insomnia. I wasn't ever sleeping more than four hours a night, and had at least one night week, usually two, that I didn't sleep at all. What sleep I did get was in short spurts...that four hours would be an hour here, two hours there, etc. I was constantly ill, and...anyway - I was seriously sleep deprived. And, I ended up putting on about 30 pounds in six months or less. I'd buy a bag of toffees at lunch, and eat the whole thing at my desk in the afternoon. If I had to take in the bank deposit, I'd swing by the dollar store, and buy a chocolate bar and a bunch of caramels - they'd be gone in an hour. I was trying to give myself a boost...what I needed was sleep, but since I couldn't get it, I'd go for sugar...lots and lots and lots of sugar. It was brutal, and I'm convinced that it created a vicious cycle, in which my sugar intake was affecting my ability to sleep, as well.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy*
So I don't believe all children can be trusted to self-regulate & eventually figure out that this stuff is bad for their body.

I don't think children will learn this on their own (unless they are really sensitive and actually feel sick from eating things which is not the case with ds) which is why I educate ds (read food labels, talk about the hazards of trans fat, discuss why he is hungry again a short while after eating sugar). Recently, we watched a PBS special about children in India developing night blindness from a lack of vit A which led to a discussion about nutrition and economy. Ds has gone through a sugar in a bowl phase. I let him do it for a while but now he seems to be accepting of the fact that it isn't a good breakfast food. In other words, he asked for sugar this morning, I told him that I wanted him to eat something with vitamins, and he cheerfully ate something more nutritious.

Another thing that I keep in mind is what kind of glycemic index (how high the food elevates blood sugar level) different foods actually have. For instance, ice cream, although sugary, does NOT have a very high glycemic index so it is a much better food than lollipops or even crackers. If ds wants something sweet, he'll be better off with ice cream or reese's peanut butter cups than with Italian water ice and jelly beans. Because of this knowledge, I can avoid a knee-jerk reaction of thinking ice cream is a bad breakfast food.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

I guess we take a pretty extreme approach. We do have some major food issues as far as food sensitivities go. No gluten , nuts, chocolate for the youngest. Refined suger literally makes me feel like I have the flu. I honestly have the view that it is poison. It affects the immune system negatively as well. wE dont keep anything unhealthy in the house at all. I do use organic sugar in hommade preserves, and in baking.Once in a while we will even make hommade ice cream.Its not that treats arent available.But treats and sweets are things like dried fruit, or a fancy smoothie or a special fruit.
You wouldnt put anything but the right type of fuel in your vehicle.... why would we put fuel in our body that isnt optimal. Maybe it is because we are on a budget as well.... every bit of food we do eat is important and we make sure that is giving us the best nutrition.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. So much to think about.

Just for some background, we are a very healthy household in general. Whole grain breads (the kind other kids won't eat!







), organic fruits and veggies, (and lots of them since that's my favorite food group), no hydrogenated oils, etc. I have white sugar in the house for some baking but use Rapadura more often. We buy plain yogurt and sweeten with a dash of maple syrup. You get the picture. And like a pp pointed out, this was not an issue at all until ds was about 4yo. That's about when he started noticing what other kids were eating, being able to recognize the sweet stuff in grocery stores, developing an affinity for birthday cake, etc. Until then he ate kale and black beans and tofu and vegetable soup with abandon. Now he won't touch any of it - well, he'll eat black beans and the broth from the soup. But it's a rare vegetable that makes it past his lips. It kills me because I model such great eating habits (well, except I don't eat enough protein, but I think he does), and our house has always been full of yummy veggies.

I really want to let ds self regulate. I feel like he's a good candidate, but it didn't seem to work when we tried it. But maybe we didn't try for long enough - I think we gave it about a week. But it was the behavior that we couldn't take, not his nutritional intake per se. He doesn't get hyper, but he does get bratty and obstinate when he eats too much sugar. The other issue is that ds2 is only 21 months old, and wants whatever ds1 is having. I am definitely not comfortable with ds2 self regulating jelly beans and ice cream sandwiches - I'm not even comfortable with him having very many. So having it in the house and letting ds1 bring it out whenever he wants could be very problematic with ds2 then wanting it.

Interesting thought about lack of sleep and sugar cravings - ds1 is definitely tired a lot. We've been struggling with this for about the past 6 months. He does not nap, but since the time change has a hard time going to bed before 8:30/9pm. And then he's up by 7:00, so he's barely getting 10 hours of sleep a day. And he is a high energy, go go go kid, and I really feel like he needs more. He often gets really cranky at about 4-6pm, and would probably fall asleep if we got into the car. I'm going to keep an eye out for a link between when he is tired and when he craves sugar.

We do talk a lot about healthy foods, why they are important, etc. But I think I may amp this up a bit, maybe find a good book that really discusses in detail, yet in a way he can understand, how different foods affect our bodies.

For those that do say "no," how do you handle it in a GD way? Ds1 will bug me about it for so long that I often snap and yell, which I don't want to do. I tell him I don't want to discuss it anymore but he keeps badgering me. Eh, I've got so much to figure out about this.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts, but I never understand why not including certain foods in a child's diet-- including not introducing them to children as a part of the household's pantry, is considered so extreme or deprivational. *Really....I just don't get it.*

Frankly, I crave Indian food. But most of my life, I had never had Indian food. And guess what-- all of those years? I never craved it! You don't miss the things you don't know about. (For the most part.)

We are vegetarians. I don't expect my DD to crave meat if it's never been made available to her. The doctor says tests show she has an allergy to peanut butter..... Guess what I'm not going to bring into the house???....If the guy at the bank offers my DD a lollipop, I'll let her have it. But I expect she'll associate lollipops with the ban, not with home. On the other hand, my girlfriend has a jar full of lollipops in her home...and she wonders how she can control her kid's consumption of the things. I just don't understand why she looks at me blankly when I say "Why are you keeping lollipops in the house in the first place??? (Oh, and that reminds me of a couple who used to order a bakery birthday cake every week! Crazy! I always thought that birthday cakes are for birthdays!!! LOL! It would never have occured to me to take the appearance of birthdya cake into my own hands, and order them 52 times a year! LOL!)

Personally, I didn't grow up with a candy or cookie jar in my house. The home was mostly a place of plain, ordinary healthy, food. Daily sweet foods included breakfast cereal, chocolate milk, and pb&j sandwiches. Dessert was served after a special Sunday dinner. Other types of food were special treats or parts of celebrations. I'm sure many of you didn't grow up with candy jars...and perhaps a few of you didn't have cookie jars in your home. So why is it now some inalienable right that your children have one?

Please explain. I'm dying to understand this type of thinking.

Faith


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
I haven't read all the posts, but I never understand why not including certain foods in a child's diet-- including not introducing them to children as a part of the household's pantry, is considered so extreme or deprivational. *Really....I just don't get it.*

Frankly, I crave Indian food. But most of my life, I had never had Indian food. And guess what-- all of those years? I never craved it! You don't miss the things you don't know about. (For the most part.)

We are vegetarians. I don't expect my DD to crave meat if it's never been made available to her. The doctor says tests show she has an allergy to peanut butter..... Guess what I'm not going to bring into the house???....If the guy at the bank offers my DD a lollipop, I'll let her have it. But I expect she'll associate lollipops with the ban, not with home. On the other hand, my girlfriend has a jar full of lollipops in her home...and she wonders how she can control her kid's consumption of the things. I just don't understand why she looks at me blankly when I say "Why are you keeping lollipops in the house in the first place??? (Oh, and that reminds me of a couple who used to order a bakery birthday cake every week! Crazy! I always thought that birthday cakes are for birthdays!!! LOL! It would never have occured to me to take the appearance of birthdya cake into my own hands, and order them 52 times a year! LOL!)

Personally, I didn't grow up with a candy or cookie jar in my house. The home was mostly a place of plain, ordinary healthy, food. Daily sweet foods included breakfast cereal, chocolate milk, and pb&j sandwiches. Dessert was served after a special Sunday dinner. Other types of food were special treats or parts of celebrations. I'm sure many of you didn't grow up with candy jars...and perhaps a few of you didn't have cookie jars in your home. So why is it now some inalienable right that your children have one?

Please explain. I'm dying to understand this type of thinking.

Faith

I certainly don't think sugar needs to be in the house. But sometimes sugar is in the house, for whatever reason (right now it is leftover birthday cake from ds's birthday) and that's when the problems start. I als want to respectfully point out that when my son was 2yo we didn't have any problems either. Oops, baby wakes, gotta run,


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
Personally, I didn't grow up with a candy or cookie jar in my house. The home was mostly a place of plain, ordinary healthy, food. Daily sweet foods included breakfast cereal, chocolate milk, and pb&j sandwiches. Dessert was served after a special Sunday dinner. Other types of food were special treats or parts of celebrations. I'm sure many of you didn't grow up with candy jars...and perhaps a few of you didn't have cookie jars in your home. So why is it now some inalienable right that your children have one?

I don't think anyone was suggesting that kids have a "right" to a cookie or candy jar?

We have sweet stuff in the house sometimes. We always have sugar - white and brown (ds1 likes it on his cereal, and I use it for baking and some cooking). Sometimes, I make cookies, then we have them in the house for a few days. We had leftover birthday cake in the house for a few days...things like that. I certainly don't think my kids have some "right" to junk food. We drink water and milk, and there's usually some orange juice in the fridge, but we almost never have pop/soda. I don't see the point in spending the money on that kind of stuff.

I haven't stuck to it fully, but I'm implementing a "home-made junk food only" policy. We can even have candy...I can make fudge, and learn to make taffy and such. Somewhere, I have a recipe for homemade candy canes. This is all still junk, and loaded with sugar....but at least it would get rid of all the other crap that's in the store-bought stuff....no more trans-fats, no more preservatives, no more "artificial flavor and color", etc.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I certainly don't think sugar needs to be in the house. But sometimes sugar is in the house, for whatever reason (right now it is leftover birthday cake from ds's birthday) and that's when the problems start. I als want to respectfully point out that when my son was 2yo we didn't have any problems either. Oops, baby wakes, gotta run,

Okay....but may I respecfully point out that if you know sweets are a problem, you can insist that all the vistors take birthday cake home withthem, so that there won't be leftovers the next day? (Or if you don't have visitors, buy a smaller birthday cake.) We personally use this strategy all the time for any food we think is unhealthy.

Also, are you saying that you didn't have this problem with your 2 year old, because my DD is a baby and perhaps that's why I don't have this problem yet? Frankly, I've been married for 16 years, and a veggie for over 20 years. The idea of limiting the types of foods I have in my house, or that I would personally introduce my future children to, has been with me for forever. And that idea will still be with me when my DD is grown and out of the house. Limiting the personal availability of foods you have previously found delicious, but now feel are unhealthy, is just part and parcel of becoming a vegetarian for health reasons. I would no sooner make lollipops a part of my pantry than I would marijuana. *I'm not saying they are the same thing.* But I am saying they are equally just not for me.

Faith


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

A week is definitly a very short time. I'd say it could take 6 months to a year. It is totally understandable that you don't want ds2 to be introduced to all the available junk food. Maybe you can come up with some compromises with ds1, things that he will like but won't be such a nutritional void. Despite letting my ds self-regulate (and I guarantee that you would be uncomfortable with what my ds eats), I don't buy him anything he asks for. I do work with him to find acceptable compromises. I really do not want any trans fats to pass his lips since I have become aware of the extent of the damage that they do. So if ds says he wants a donut, I tell him we can go to Whole Foods and get a pastry. He is usually reasonable because I try to find something that makes us both happy. He knows that I can tell what is in the food by reading the label, and he accepts it if I tell him it has something bad for us in it.

Because candy is readily available to him, he doesn't go ape for it when he sees it. His pattern has always been to eat a lot of something the first day of a new food, a moderate amount the second day, and hardly any the third day. If something has been unavailable for a while, he resets to the first day binge.

Sleep is very important to my ds, not that he wants sugar when tired neccessarily, just he is cranky and unreasonable. I certainly eat when I'm tired, but ds tends to not eat when he is tired. Anyway, things will probably get better in a year when your ds needs less sleep. Mine seems to finally be going off naps, but he hits a lag around 4-6 also.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I don't think anyone was suggesting that kids have a "right" to a cookie or candy jar?

I think some people DO feel that children DO have a right to have candy and other junk foods in the home (in or out of jars.) I think that way because whenever I hear parents complain about how consumption is out of hand in their households, I mention that I don't think it's a "right," and that they as parents have other options-- starting with not bringing it into the home in the first place. Then they almost always tell me that I'm mean and I will be depriving my children if I don't make sweets available to them in my home

Some people tell me I'm _also_ depriving my children of their rights if I don't make meat available to them in my home. (And I've never said my children can not try meat for themselves when they are old enough to make the request. And they can eat it all they want when they are old enough to access it for themselves, as well.)

Please understand-- I don't think it's bad if you have cake or cookies or sugar for baking in your house sometimes. Your house is your house and your responsiblity. But if you think that the amount your children is consuming is unhealthy, I think every parent has options about how they will manage the consumption of these foods in their homes. But many parents act like this is sooo out of their control...like their kids have twisted their arms behind their backs...and I just don't understand why. When sense were the kids holding the parents hostage?

Faith


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I also think a week is a very short amount of time.

Oceanbaby, did you talk about his behavior with him? Casually point out times where you felt he was reacting or behaving out of the norm? That helps us sometimes. Anyway, I'm not sure if you're looking more for a GD way to limit or advice on lifting limits....so I'll hold off.

But for the other poster who questioned "WHY?"

I don't think my kid has any more right to eat the foods he wants than I do. But he also doesn't have any less rights than I do, you know?

If I choose to eat vegetarian for health or ethical reasons, I would no more want someone telling me that I had to have 3 bites of meat before I could have some hummus. And try as I might to avoid it, I'm going to encounter meat in other places--doesn't mean I'll crave it, but it might pique my interest to try it.

gotta run....more later if anyone cares....


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
I think some people DO feel that children DO have a right to have candy and other junk foods in the home (in or out of jars.) I think that way because whenever I hear parents complain about how consumption is out of hand in their households, I mention that I don't think it's a "right," and that they as parents have other options-- starting with not bringing it into the home in the first place. Then they almost always tell me that I'm mean and I will be depriving my children if I don't make sweets available to them in my home

Some people tell me I'm _also_ depriving my children of their rights if I don't make meat available to them in my home. (And I've never said my children can not try meat for themselves when they are old enough to make the request. And they can eat it all they want when they are old enough to access it for themselves, as well.)

Please understand-- I don't think it's bad if you have cake or cookies or sugar for baking in your house sometimes. Your house is your house and your responsiblity. But if you think that the amount your children is consuming is unhealthy, I think every parent has options about how they will manage the consumption of these foods in their homes. But many parents act like this is sooo out of their control...like their kids have twisted their arms behind their backs...and I just don't understand why. When sense were the kids holding the parents hostage?

Gotcha. I thought you were talking about the posters here, and I haven't really seen that attitude here.

I was at my sister's one day. I walked in and her son was sitting on the bed (eek!) with a tub of candy - jujubes or gummy worms or something like that. He was eating the whole thing, while my sister watched tv. When I told her that he had it, she just said, "yeah - I know". During that same visit, she told me just can't understand why her kids eat so much junk. I'm totally boggled as to why something like that was even in the house if she's worried about it!

DD has a taste for potato chips and chocolate chips (wonder if she just likes the sound of "chips"?) and that frustrates me. They both started when we lived with my mom and stepdad. My stepdad would sit down with a little dish of chocolate chips to eat while he watched the tube. DD would go in to see him and have some of the chips. I would have preferred that she not even taste that kind of thing until she was older (she was about 21 months), but I can't see telling someone what he can eat in his own home, especially when we were living there rent-free at that point! Because she knows what they're like and enjoys them, I don't keep them in the house, anymore...I used to have a bag on hand for an occasional batch of cookies, but....


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

The thing is that I want to have be able to have some "treat" stuff in our house. I like having a bit of birthday cake over the next few days, and I'm okay with ds having some as well. I'm just having a problem with him wanting it when he wakes up, then wanting some a few hours later, and then wanting some more right before dinner. I don't want to argue about it. I want to be able to let his body dictate when it feels right to him, but that doesn't seem to be working. But never having sugar in the house doesn't seem to be the right solution for us either.

I have no problem limiting certain foods. I will no way buy hot dogs. I think they are disgusting, and will never purchase one for ds. If he buys one when he is older, fine, but I'm not having them in the house. (We do have veggie dogs, however.) So it's not a philosophical thing wherein I believe that foods shouldn't ever be off limits. My problem is moderation of foods that are within limits.

And yes, when my son was 2yo, I would never have thought I'd be talking about this. I always thought that if you just didn't have it around, it wouldn't become part of their consciousness. I was wrong. Maybe that will be the case for you, I dunno. I live in a big city, we go to other people's houes a lot, we are constantly in and out of restaurants, bakeries, cafes, and various grocery stores. So just not bringing it in the house, even if that's what I chose to do, doesn't entirely eliminate the problem.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Faith NJ, I think the only thing about your daughter being 2 is that she's just beginning to see and recognize that other kids are eating something different. My daughter is also 2, and she was very upset that I wouldn't let her have popcorn (she's allergic) when her friend had it. My dh is veggie and I eat no beef or pork, but honestly, trying to explain to my dd why we don't eat the meat ravioli her friend is eating at a restaurant was too much of a challenge for me. (I let her try it, and she hated it. If she'd loved it, then maybe I'd let her have it at that restaurant with that friend, but I wouldn't make it at home.) I imagine it just gets harder as they get older and talk to friends about food more.


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

I guess that I have been lucky in a sense to have the gluten/ wheat intolerance. It has limited so many of the foods that I wouldnt have had around anyways. In our case it has gotten much easier as the kids have gotten older. My son who turns 5 next month never even bats an eye anymore. I am always sure to bring an alternative food our with me when we are in groups where food will be available. Neither of them ever seem disappointed


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Another thing for me is that I want to teach ds to eat as part of a larger community. He did not live in a household consisting of just his parents when he was younger than 3. We also lived with his grandmother and 5 men in their young 20's. Consequently, I never had the idea that I was in charge of all food that came into the house

Many people advocate making all of the food choices for the family, including their spouse. I find that to be a bit strange, to say the least. I do know more about nutrition than dh, so I discuss food choices with him in a respectful way, but I don't dictate what he eats or make him keep his choices out of the house. I extend the same courtesy to ds.

Now that he is almost 5, he is about confident enough to think he can get to the closest store by himself. I am NOT saying that I am considering sending him on errands, but if he decided he really wanted candy and found some loose change in the house, it would be possible that he would decide that he is just going to get it for himself. I DO NOT want that to happen. We live in a large house. I would not hear him leave (hey, we didn't even hear someone break open our front door last month). All it would take would be him getting the idea in his head and me not checking on him for 5 minutes. So, I think teaching him and respecting his choices is a better route than simply controlling what foods come into the house.

I remember what a big difference it made to me when I was old enough to get to stores by myself. I no longer felt that I needed to eat as much as possible of any sweet food available. I was able to tell myself that if I ever wanted something badly enough, I could just go out and get it. Then, I was able to decide that I didn't really want it that much.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
I haven't read all the posts, but I never understand why not including certain foods in a child's diet-- including not introducing them to children as a part of the household's pantry, is considered so extreme or deprivational. *Really....I just don't get it.*........

......So why is it now some inalienable right that your children have one?

You're totally misunderstanding the point. The point is not that I think keeping children from having access to certain foods is "extreme or deprivational". Nor do I think it's an "inalienable right" that they have access to junk food.

I let her eat what she wants and keep those foods available to her, because it is what WORKS. I read KristiMetz's posts about this with a great deal of skepticism, thinking, "That couldn't possibly work," but I decided to give it a try. It took about 2 weeks (probably a short time because DD is very young) but she became quite adept at managing her own food intake. As I said, it takes her about 2 or 3 weeks to eat the equivalent of *one* sucker. She probably eats 5 bittersweet chocolate chips 3 times a week and she might have a total of 4 all natural gingersnaps in an entire week. She occasional (twice a month, maybe) eats a few saltines, when she sees DH has them. Other than that, she's junk food free. Therefore, I can hardly see the harm in what we're doing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I think the difficulty I'd have with that approach is how to curtail it if it didn't work. I think it would be awfully confusing for dd if she were allowed to have cookies whenever she wanted for 2 or 3 or 4 weeks, then I suddenly stopped having them in the house. How long do you give this approach if your child doesn't start to self-regulate their intake? I think dd really is a born sugar junkie, just like her mom.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I think the difficulty I'd have with that approach is how to curtail it if it didn't work. I think it would be awfully confusing for dd if she were allowed to have cookies whenever she wanted for 2 or 3 or 4 weeks, then I suddenly stopped having them in the house. How long do you give this approach if your child doesn't start to self-regulate their intake? I think dd really is a born sugar junkie, just like her mom.

I really can't say. I'm definitely not an expert on any of it - it's still rather new to me. But I can guarantee you that if my DD's diet got completely out of control, I would change things. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm not a healthy eater because I've given this a try. I may crave things, but I don't eat a lot of junk. I cook everything from scratch. I don't use refined flour and the only refined sugar I use is for the cookies DH asks me to make. (DD and I don't eat those.)

There are some limits I have to place on DD, because she has a dairy intolerance, so it's not like I think limits are mean or bad or whatever. And again, I'm still pretty new to the idea myself, but I'm loving the results.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

My ds was self-regulated at 2 as well. Now he is 5 and it is a whole different world. In the long-term it certainly didn't work for us, quite the opposite in fact. Eating is a huge battle for us. Food consumes our lives. I wish I could go back and un-do the 1.5 years of damage to his gut......

He self-limited to foods he was allergic to. He became "addicted" to them. I am sure it contributed to the autistic symptoms we really began to see at that time (he is dx'd as autism spectrum). We took away all trace allergens and he self-limited to something else. Didn't eat a thing other than dry toast with butter for 6 months. Imagine what kind of nutritional problems THAT lead to. 6 months of OT later he was still only eating foods that were ultimately harmful. Then he was addicted to cheese, then bananas, then peanut butter, then whole wheat crackers, then red apples.

2 RADICAL diet changes later we have our son back. He speaks well, doesn't zone out, no major panic or anxiety, he eats tons of food and is actually growing like crazy, he sleeps at night, he doesn't scream or rage, he tries new foods with no hesitation (and no more gagging!), he doesn't "stim", he makes great eye contact, he plays imaginative games, he is a regular 5 year old! Do I let him self-regulate? NO! I control everything he eats. 3 meals, 2 snacks, and leftovers if he is still hungry. Sucks, but it is true. One wrong food could kill him, though most of the bad foods he may be given by confused relatives will just cause a whole host of other problems. After all we have been through the stakes are too high to do it any other way.

FWIW my 2 yo only wants foods that are harmful to him as well. He craves dairy even though he has been off it for 9 months (and was only allowed it periodically before that as we were trying to determine allergy). He would eat a whole tub of honey in one sitting if he could. Self-regulation is not an option for him either. He drinks salt from the salt shaker, eats butter or flour by the spoonful at any opportunity. I work to address the underlying issues and keep him full of healthy foods of MY choosing. I shudder to think where we could be in 2 years if we went down that path again.

We actually started off pretty healthy too, no processed foods, no sugar, no junk food. Long-time vegans. My oldest made "healthy" choices. I'm sure we congratulated ourselves many times at how well we were doing. Then the other shoe dropped









I'm not trying to caution anyone away from whatever they feel is right for their family. Although our situation is NOT unique it probably doesn't apply in a great many households. In the end it is whatever works for the family. Some kids do well on their own, some just need the "help" making good choices, others just can't be allowed to make those choices. If sugar effects your ds that way it may be doing worse to his gut. It could be a health issue beyond the regular "sugar is bad". We are very much a limit-free household, but I prefer healthy, happy kids to the alternative. I have HAD the alternative and I don't wish to go back!


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## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I keep only healthy food in the house. No sugar and nothing with sugar. The children can eat whatever they want because it is all healthy, organic.
I find it the easiest. No power struggles. Dr. Aldort mentions this solution on one of her CDs and may in her book. I don't remember. It works for us. We used to have such struggles around food. No more. it is great. I wish everyone stopped buying junk. We need to get the companies that make junk food and candy out of business. They addict our children to their products.
The only difficult times is when we go to a birthday party or any other get together. I feel so angry at other parents for ruining it for me. My children completely forget about all this junk, until some other child reminds them about candy... Why don't we all just go on junk food and dancy strike for good?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think the problem with simply saying "don't bring them into the house" is that this doesn't teach children anything. They are going to be old enough to go out and get themselves junk one day, pretty soon. And I don't agree with the notion that not having had any junk will make them not want any, ever. I was raised very healthy eating by my mother. She made her own granola for us, treats were not common, and she homemade every meal with fresh veggies, etc. But I have a sweet tooth. I love sugar. I start my day with something sweet - bacon and eggs would make me barf. I used to have to work really hard at limiting my sweets b/c of weight issues, but ever since my DD was born I've been able to eat lots of sweets and not gain any weight. A blessing and a curse in one!

Anyways, the point is, as it is with all things GD, to TEACH the child a valuable life lesson, rather than seek to control their behaviour by virtue of our power (in this case, our power to buy food).

We got a book from Usborned called "what happens to your food". It's about the digestive system, but it also talks a bit about healthy eating and foods that aren't health. DD really "got it" then. This hasn't translated into an ability to control her desires for sweets, and she certainly has my sweet tooth. Add to that she is, like I was, extremely picky about food and it's a daily battle to get her to eat anything remotely healthy other than protein or fibre (i.e. virtually no fruits and veggies - the kid even hates berries!). And yet she is well aware that there are foods that "help your body grow and be strong" and foods that don't (we call them "sometimes foods" so as not to demonize food).

Anyways, I sympathize with the OP. I tried letting her control her intake, I tried not doing anything coercive with eating, and it still was not good. Finally, I started setting some simple limits. Dessert is for after dinner. If you want ice cream, you need to eat your dinner. I try to stay away from "take 3 more bites", but on rare occasions I've resorted to that. I also try to say "No". Just simply "No" when she asks for a treat and I feel she's already had enough sugar.

But it's hard. Especially if your child is a very picky eater. I have actually resorted to calling a Power Cookie (from the local HFS) "lunch", because it is full of organic nuts and raisins and grains like kamut, etc....but it is still a cookie and it has chocolate chips.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

You know I do think that children do pick up on our strong feelings about things and react against them.

I have a giant, and I mean GIANT candy BIN in our home. It's similiar to the one I grew up with. Our rule is one thing at lunch time and one at night. The only "trick" is that all of the items are very small (bite size like they sell at Halloween).

We have a bigger "treat" on Friday nights like homemade chocolate chip cookie or pies or cakes. DH brings them to work with him on Saturday mornings, so they are out of the house fast.

My kids almost never press for more. They know it's there for them and so they don't have to obsess over it.

IMO, the more desperate you are that your kids not eat this stuff the more the "feed" on this desperation.


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## VelmaLou (Jan 8, 2006)

I don't think that's true at all.

My kid is at a birthday party tonight. It's the first one she's ever attended. And it's going to be doozie (the whole class is going in a limousine)! I told her she can eat what she wants (the kid who eats dried dates for sweets). I would be really, honestly surprised if she ate more than a few bites of any of the sweets, including the cake.

Frankly, two sweets a day, every day does not seem like a good idea to me, having researched all the cons of trans fats and sugars.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VelmaLou*
I don't think that's true at all.

Frankly, two sweets a day, every day does not seem like a good idea to me, having researched all the cons of trans fats and sugars.

None of the treats in our house have trans fats (milky way, m and m's, dove candies etc...). The serving size we use is about the size of a quarter (as I said bite size).

I challenge anyone to show that this size serving per day is an issue.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I think the problem with simply saying "don't bring them into the house" is that this doesn't teach children anything. They are going to be old enough to go out and get themselves junk one day, pretty soon. And I don't agree with the notion that not having had any junk will make them not want any, ever.


First of all, please know that I have really been addressing people who are not satisfied with how things are going with their children, as it pertains to sugar consumption. If you are satisfied with your arraingement, then by all means-- stick with what works. But if you are dissatisfied, I really don't understand why some people (not all people) don't consider limitations or eliminations as a possibility. I have truly encountered people who have stated they believe this is impossible-- as if they do not control the purse strings or something. But whatever.

When you say that regulating the foods that come into our house doesn't teach DD anything, *I beg to differ*. DD has an opportunity to self-regulate. She self-regulates when she eats, the amount of food she eats, as well as which foods she eats from those that are provided. *And she's always learning.* It's just that I prefer to teach my child to cultivate a taste for fresh fruits and veggies, as well as international cuisine, by repeated exposure to those foods. Perhaps by leaving out the option of junk food on the regular, I'm just not teaching her what YOU want to teach your child. But she's _still_ learning something, regardless.

As for thinking that leaving out junk food will not make her want it ever-- I don't know who suggested this would be the case? She can make whatever decisions she wants to when she gets older. In my point of view, it's my responsiblity to provide her with the best that I can, while she is too young to provide for herself. At this age, it is her responisbilty to eat, or not eat. When she is older, she will have the tools and the nutritional information to decide for herself what she wants to do. Children often grow up to make different choices than their parents have made. That doesn't worry me (too much.) I have my job to do as a parent, and I will do the best that I can. She will have her choices to make, as an individual. I hope she will choose to do er best, but I know that at times she will choose things I wouldn't have chosen for her. So what? Who doesn't?

*Some people think they have a parental responsibility to expose their kids to everything, before their kids find themselves with free access to it out in the world.* Some parents think they should try and give their kids everything they want...especially if other kids are getting it. I get the idea. But I don't feel the same way. And I don't think that's my personal role as my DD's parent. I just don't see it that way. If you or anyone else feels that's the right role for you in your particular child's life in this particular time in history-- go right ahead. I dont' understand why there is so much pressurefor us all the parent the same way.

Faith


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I think our oldests are the same age and my DS also has a "problem" with sugar. I have been educating him for a few years now and I think he is starting to get it. It makes him crazy and I tell him so, that it affects the way he acts and makes it unpleasant for the rest of the people in the family.

Now he asks if things have too much sugar in it and he is very good at regulating how much he eats. WHen he gets a boat load of candy (birthday parties or Halloween, for example) we talk about how much he can have a day. We strike a deal. ANd after awhile he forgets about it at which point I get it out of the house.








I hope you guys come up with a solution.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I'm always amazed at the strong philosphical feelings posters have on this issue.

I prepare three meals a day for the boys. In addition, they are permitted three snacks a day whenever they wish, but no more than two of the same item. They have a drawer in the frig and a drawer in the cabinets with a variety of snacks to choose from (cheese, youghart, ham slices, crackers, dried fruit, applesauce, etc.). Plus they are allowed unlimited fresh fruit. I stock the snack drawers and fruit bowl regularly.

This may seem overly stuctured,, but it has been working pretty well for us. DS#2 was driving me crazy eating about ten yougharts a day and not even tasting his meals. I didn't want to just not buy more, since the other four members of the family like to eat the occasional youghart too!

As far a sweets go, we have dessert about 1 or 2 times a week and the boys have a sweet after-school snack (today it was ice cream sandwiches) about 1 or 2 times a week.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
I keep only healthy food in the house. No sugar and nothing with sugar. The children can eat whatever they want because it is all healthy, organic.

Me too. I used to keep sweets, but stopped at the beginning of the year, and now she never asks for unhealthy food because it is not there. And there is no power struggle around it.

We got into this thing where I would buy sweets for her at the grocery store (like a few smarties or whatever) and she got into the habit of wanting them every time we go to the store. Which is a lot. So I've just started saying no, we don't buy that stuff, and offering to get something healthy as an option.

This change with the junk food at the store has only been in the last few weeks, and my kid is still in withdrawl. She had a dream about donuts the other night, and still oogles any sweets we see.

I do let her have sweets or junky foods if others bring them around... if my roomie gets an ice cream dd can get one too, if there are crappy muffins at the playgroup, that's fine. I don't want to prohibit her from having food that is right in front of her and that others are enjoying. I just try to eliminate it wherever I can.

I believe that sugar is an addiction, and that children should not be left alone to try to manage their intake. My daughter would eat way more sugar than I am comfortable with. I want to help her develop tastes for healthy and nourishing food.

I also think that we can't expect our children to eat more healthily than we do. If there is cake in the house, if we eat sweets, they will want them.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy*
This may seem overly stuctured,, but it has been working pretty well for us. DS#2 was driving me crazy eating about ten yougharts a day and not even tasting his meals. I didn't want to just not buy more, since the other four members of the family like to eat the occasional youghart too!

Ds does this, as well. He'll go through an entire box of the organic squeezy yogurts in one sitting. It's maddening. I've taken to making a deal with him before I buy them about how many he'll eat in a day. It feels way controlling but the kid is a sweet fiend. I'm at a loss as to how to feed him anymore.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
If you or anyone else feels that's the right role for you in your particular child's life in this particular time in history-- go right ahead. I dont' understand why there is so much pressurefor us all the parent the same way.

This is kind of a funny way to respond to people who took the time to answer your strong pleas to explain our approach. There's no pressure here. It's a message board. No "do or die." And you *did* ask.

For ME, I would rather my kid eat a trans-fat sugar-laden item with joy and happiness, than eat tofu and beans with any shred of remorse/shame/sense of duty/etc. Emotional health and the health of relationships factors in a lot for me. More so than the occassional sweet.

And I have enough trust in my kids' desire to self-preserve that I'm giving him information and my opinion and some freedom now, than at some arbitrary date of reason in the future. He's done really, really well. He has no need to go off into adulthood eating brownies for dinner as a way to defy the "no dessert until you finish your dinner" voice like I did.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
....For ME, I would rather my kid eat a trans-fat sugar-laden item with joy and happiness, than eat tofu and beans with any shred of remorse/shame/sense of duty/etc. Emotional health and the health of relationships factors in a lot for me. More so than the occassional sweet.

And I have enough trust in my kids' desire to self-preserve that I'm giving him information and my opinion and some freedom now, than at some arbitrary date of reason in the future. He's done really, really well. He has no need to go off into adulthood eating brownies for dinner as a way to defy the "no dessert until you finish your dinner" voice like I did.

Well I'm sorry the "no dessert until you finish your dinner" voice sent you off on the road to defiance. When I lived with my grandparents, I lived in a no dessert until you've finished dinner household as well. It never made me feel like I had to defy anything. You see, I thought they said those words to me because they wanted me to grow up healthy. DD also has no reason to defy that voice. Finishing meals isn't a condition for having dessert here. Besides, we follow the Spanish tradition of serving fruit for dessert. Naturally, DD can have fruit whenever she wants it.

All the same, I find it interesting that you tied eating tofu and beans in with remorse/shame/duty. (Oh what misery the Asian and Hispanic world must feel for having to eat those foods as staples! LOL!) I also find it interesting that you tied sugar and trans-fats in with happiness, joy and emotional health and good relationships. I'd say those links _almost_ smack of some sort of cultural bias: Foods I'm Used To=Good. Foods I'm Not Used To=Bad.

Whatever the actual case, emotional health and the health of relationships are important to me as well. But strangely enough-- since my DD likes both tofu and beans, I really don't see what those particular foods and her emotional health, or a healthy relationship between the two of us, have to do with each other. *I also don't see what supplying regular doses of sugar and trans-fat laden foods have to do with ensuring a good relationship with your child, or your child's happiness and joy. I think one can ply a kid with all the sugar she/he wants, and still find one's self with a crappy relationship in the end. Plus, if you ask me, there are just so many ways for a person to enjoy life that don't have anything whatsoever to do with stuffing one's face full of brownies. And there's no better time than the time of one's youth to discover how it's possible to generate happiness from the inside, out.*

In my home, our relationships are built more on things like what we say to each other and how we say it. How we look at and touch one another. Things we do for each other, like playing together, teaching each other, singing songs, reading books, telling jokes and tickles. Sure, having meals together plays a part in creating a positive family dynamic. But when it comes to meals, I'd prefer to emphasise the love and care I put into providing health promoting, tasty and interesting foods for my family, on beautiful plates, and also the conversations we have at the table. And I sure as heck don't believe limiting unhealthy foods is going to be a source of some sort of family breakdown. _If my kid grows up, and her greatest source of resentment against me is because I didn't provide her with enough brownies, then I really will have to ask myself what in heck was I doing with all that TIME I had to spend with her, that brownies amounted to anything more important than a hill of beans? Or else, after all these years filled with laughter, hugs, storybooks, softball coaching and camping trips, how could she be so shallow as to choose to dwell on the lack of brownies, and make it a defining and bitter touchstone of her childhood?_ *The thought that her future happiness hinges on dessert is scary. And to suggest that sounds like the thinking that comes from addiction, not emotional health.*

As I've said before, my questions are really directed towards those who are having problems with keeping a lot of sweets in their homes, not to anyone who's happy with how things go. But since you felt it necessary to reply, _despite your happiness_, I just have to reiterate: there's no problem if we parent differently. I just dont choose to make a habit of using sugar to buy happiness in my house.

Faith


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Dude.

No one here is buying happiness with sugar.

There are plenty and plenty of stories of kids rebelling against child food controls--it's not my personal "road to defiance" existing in a vaccuum.

No one is suggesting that happiness now or future hinges on dessert. But lack of trust and anger at being controlled might impede on a kids' happiness.

All I'm saying is that I'm not creating arbitrary limits on my children's food intake, I'm trusting them now to make decisions, and we don't have power struggles over food. Trust, freedom, and consensus. That's all I'm saying. My kid's not addicted to sugar. He's not too young or unreasonable to make his own decisions. Just offering it up as one viable alternative.

And your cultural bias remarks are completely offensive.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Ack, I had a long post typed out but it's no use, people have their ideas about this and my long involved post isn't going to change anyone's mind. Anyway, sorry I didn't respond to those who quoted my post; I forgot to put this thread on Subscribe. But I don't think I have it in me right now to get into a defense of my opinion that it would be neglectful to give my DD junk food on demand. If you can't see my reasoning, you can't see it.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Ack, I had a long post typed out but it's no use, people have their ideas about this and my long involved post isn't going to change anyone's mind. Anyway, sorry I didn't respond to those who quoted my post; I forgot to put this thread on Subscribe. But I don't think I have it in me right now to get into a defense of my opinion that it would be neglectful to give my DD junk food on demand. If you can't see my reasoning, you can't see it.

*I think you made your point, in your original post, very clear.* If your personal experience helps any one person who feels they actually _need_ help with making a decision, then it's a blessing. For those who can't see your point, well it didn't seem like you were really addressing the needs of those whose kids are not having problems with sugar, in the first place. But that's just my opinion.

Faith


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This is a copy of a recent post of mine regarding facilitating nutritional awareness in young children.

This is one of my areas of passion: nutrition and behavior. ;-) What I have come to see as a radical unschooler is that our son has incredible observational skills and deductive ability to see correllations between events. Although, he has limited impulse control at some times more than others. My task is NOT to obstruct his own listening and learning about his body (and its effects on others).

When I override his perceived needs for a food (sugar, etc), he is learning to dismiss his own body signals. I believe that this process interrupts him from experiencing the Non-Life Threatening consequences of his actions and recognizing how they affect himself and others. As a result, we do not intrude in ds's food choices, we offer suggestions, make observations and share information regarding the impact of his actions on us. At 3, he was saying 'Mama, I am hungry. I need some protein."

Concurrently, I have been observing for patterns related to his food consumption and behaviors which negatively impact me. As I have said, his dairy consumption is a huge issue for those around him. However, we haven't restricted it. But we do give authentic feedback about its impact and our observations when he initiates consuming it. What we have both/all learned is that he *can* consume dairy on an occasional basis with no significant effects, at this point. But, if he consumes dairy daily, then the physical aggression occurs about one hour afterwards and lasts for 1-6 hours depending upon quantity consumed. This type of information (which I have noted) helps *him* to decide what foods to consume, or not. Our anticipated activities are a huge variable in whether dairy is likely to be an issue or not.

If we are going to the park, he understands that he needs protein to feel like sharing and taking turns. If he only consumes carbohydrates (yes, he has known about the components of food, since about age 3.5), he starts having a harder time taking turns and we end up needing to leave to get something to eat sooner. If he consumes dairy, he recognizes that he has a hard time keeping from pushing and physicality. It is pretty simple and he understands and chooses accordingly, most of the time. He IS a little scientist though, and loves to test and retest the theories for accuracy on occasion.







But, if we are going to be home with no company, dairy consumption early in the day, isn't an issue. So, the choice (which is his) is when to consume the dairy.

I believe this level of awareness would be harder with multiple children. But, my goal is to empower ds with self-awareness. And mostly, my part is to share by observations and not interfere with his own.

Self-control is something that I am still working on, at 43. I don't believe that anyone does things without a reason. Sometimes that reason is externally initiated. Sometimes it is an ineffective or non-constructive strategy to meet an underlying need. Helping our son toward listening to his own body, is my way of helping him to meet his own needs through identification of his needs, and information about alternative strategies. *Choosing "what is best" *for* him, changes the locus of self-control away from him.* How then can he learn self-control, without the opportunity to practice using his own judgement? I am not saying that you suggested this. But the whole "appropriate expectations for behavior" is a matrix of externally generated control of another person.

Btw, I haven't read Naomi Aldort's latest book, but I believe that her parenting paradigm is similar in nature: self-awareness comes before self-control. My point is this ability happens much earlier when the child, even very young children, have the reins to listen and follow their own inner voice, with the safety net of an attuned parent.

Pat


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
Have you ever wondered *why* you can't control your eating habits? Has it ever occured to you that it may be because of the attitudes and controls about food that your own parents enforced upon you as a child? It's worth considering.

I just wanted to respond to this. My parents did not enforce any food rules on me as a child--they kept both healthy food and junk food in the house, I was allowed to get what I wanted at the supermarket or at a restaurant, and I was never asked to "clean my plate" or coerced to "just have another bite."

I was never able to self-regulate, however. Like Nora's Mom, I am a sugar addict in the worst sense. If I have it in the house (and I confess that I often do), I am often unable (literally) to control my consumption. I can eat a box of cookies at a sitting, easily. Now, I have a fast metabolism and my body "compensates" by not being hungry for other things--so I maintain a healthy weight, but sugar often takes the place of healthy, whole foods for me. I have been actively fighting this since I went to college and really educated myself about nutrition. I have to say that it's horrible to feel like you're damaging your body, while struggling with POWERFUL physical addiction. It has been most difficult during this pregnancy; I can't tell you how many times I've ended up in tears b/c I want to feed my growing baby the best foods possible, but I can only sometimes control my desire for junk food.

Frankly, I wish to G-d that my parents had imposed some more "rules." I certainly don't blame them--I think they really thought they were doing the best thing by allowing me to make my own choices--but they both struggled with weight their whole lives and had their own problems with sugar, so I also think they might have predicted that giving me 24/7 access to Froot Loops, Pop Tarts, and Twinkies might not have been the best thing for me.

My real point is only that all kids are different. Some will react to a junk-free home by rebelling against it, sneaking junk food, etc. Some will react to a junk-free home by never really developing a taste for junk. Some will react to a "permissive" home by not over-glamorizing the appeal of junk; some, like me, will react to a "persmissive" home by developing life-long unhealthy habits that they are always struggling to break. Just because it works for you doesn't mean that it will work for everyone, or even that it will always work for you.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

ITA with yuor post NYCVeg and have a similar experience with permissiveness and hardcore sugar addiction.

My aunt was very vigilant in not letting her first daughter have pop or junk or anything, but by the time she had had her second daughter, she became more lax, so she had pop and junk at an earlier age. to this day, my oldest niece does not drink pop or eat junk because she doesn't really like it; whereass, the youngest does.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy*
I'm always amazed at the strong philosphical feelings posters have on this issue.

I prepare three meals a day for the boys. In addition, they are permitted three snacks a day whenever they wish, but no more than two of the same item. They have a drawer in the frig and a drawer in the cabinets with a variety of snacks to choose from (cheese, youghart, ham slices, crackers, dried fruit, applesauce, etc.). Plus they are allowed unlimited fresh fruit. I stock the snack drawers and fruit bowl regularly.

This may seem overly stuctured,, but it has been working pretty well for us. DS#2 was driving me crazy eating about ten yougharts a day and not even tasting his meals. I didn't want to just not buy more, since the other four members of the family like to eat the occasional youghart too!

As far a sweets go, we have dessert about 1 or 2 times a week and the boys have a sweet after-school snack (today it was ice cream sandwiches) about 1 or 2 times a week.


I am with you. I see nothing wrong with structure and offering healthy snacks. I think I may use some of your ideas. LOL


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We had an experience at our favorite diner recently. Ds and I always get apple pie and peach cobbler, respectively. And we order it as the first course. Well, ds was wiggly and hungry, but not eating. So, dh says "if you want to eat your pie before your roast beef, you need to hurry as your lunch will be here soon". I just laughed at the irony.









Pat


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
We had an experience at our favorite diner recently. Ds and I always get apple pie and peach cobbler, respectively. And we order it as the first course. Well, ds was wiggly and hungry, but not eating. So, dh says "if you want to eat your pie before your roast beef, you need to hurry as your lunch will be here soon". I just laughed at the irony.









Pat


How old is your son, Pat? And how much can he eat? If my 5-year-old had pie before roast beef, he'd have no room for the latter. This is a problem that we often have. I don't buy into the "dinner then dessert" paradigm. But if ds chooses dessert first, he'll invariably have no room for dinner.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
How old is your son, Pat? And how much can he eat? If my 5-year-old had pie before roast beef, he'd have no room for the latter. This is a problem that we often have. I don't buy into the "dinner then dessert" paradigm. But if ds chooses dessert first, he'll invariably have no room for dinner.

Dragonfly, he is 38.5 pounds, about 42 inches high and will be 5 in a couple of weeks. He has enormous appetite but generally grazes all day and night. He won't usually do big meals either. But he LOVES apple pie and roast beef. He will eat almost all of the pie and then most of an adult portion of the roast beef, the side of squash, *and* the corn, *and* sometimes fries *and* corn bread too!! It is an absolutely amazing amount of food. About twice a week he will consume a huge meal like this, if it is a favorite. The rest of the time, he will eat protein, carbohydrates and fats throughout the day. But, he does self-regulate to have a broad spectrum of food over the course of a few days. We also make smoothies about 3-4 times a week and I add vegetable and animal protein powders and often some other goodies like olive oil and coconut oil for fats, and some algae powders for the vitamins. He loves a few select green vegetables, but goes in spurts and will eat them for several "meals" in a row and then none for a week.

We use mostly organic fruits and vegetables, avoid all artificial colors and flavors and preservatives, high fructose corn syrup and dairy, soy and wheat. He is aware and agreeable about this because of their affect on _how he feels_. It is never a struggle. We also try them occassionally whenever he desires and we learn (together we observe and discuss) about how they affect him currently, again and again. Frankly, I am fine with just the pie when he wants that (this happened once) and we save the roast beef for later. And he enjoys the rest when he is hungry, when and if he wants. We've eaten at the diner about 3 times a month for lunch since he was nursing in arms. He does the same binge at his favorite BBQ restaurant and his favorite seafood restaurant. I think he just likes their cooking better than mine.









I consider the apple pie a fruit, don't you?









Pat


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

how great (and confusing







) to see this thread....i just got back from yet another visit with grandparents that amounted to my dd gorging on sweets and non-food while being verbally harrassed by the grandparents for ME not liking it. i got criticized for objecting, and dd tantrums...its a huge, huge ordeal. and avoiding the particular situation doesnt help, because i have come to realize that EVERY home (even otherwise 'crunchy' friends) is laden with nonfoods, sweets, and artificial crap. and i am put in a defensive battle if i object. my MIL agreed to stop giving dd large quantities of candy and ice cream during their 3-4 hour visit weekly, but still feeds her 'breakfast' of white french toast with country crock slathered all over it and sprinkled with white sugar and high fructose syrup. i say 'well, its only once a week' but then the OTHER grandparents see us at least once a week, and every meal is the same as above (despite the grandpa missing his foot from diabetes) he is the WORST about attacking me for food choices i make for my children. his son is ADDICTED to junk food so severely he steals money and credit cards and spends it on food to gorge himself....and he was NEVER limited, all they eat are sugary convienence and fried foods.

i am in real distress over this. i have in the past been very casual about food, i just try to avoid it before it happens, and not openly oppose when its offered....but its really all she will eat in these outside the home situations. for example, she knows grandparents have lucky charms and fritos for their kids, so denying that as soon as we get there would automatically create a battle for the entire day or so we are there....i leave her unregulated and she will only eat the box of cereal. now, my relatives say she does that BECAUSE i am so 'strict' and 'controlling'







, as if....but if that reasoning is used, why do they AND their children also eat this way. 'they eat whatever we make, they dont want lucky charms all the time' is what they say....well, breakfast was instant pancake mix with ALL the fixins and microwave bacon. lunch was hot dogs and bbq chips, dinner was deep fried (in crisco) chicken nuggests and mac n cheese. so, its ALL the same. its all processed, white, and difficult on the body.

i dont argue with them, i dont think i am better than anyone (i am addicted to sweets and its so frustrating to be there as well) i am really just concerned about my kids and their bodies. WHY IS THAT SO WRONG???

so i am reading all your responses and tryin so hard to find a way that will help my dd (3.5 and hyper with frequent behavior problems when with others...but not at home, usually) i dont like limits, but dont want to let her poison herself. i dont want her running rampant now, OR when she is older and out of the house.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VelmaLou*
IFrankly, two sweets a day, every day does not seem like a good idea to me, having researched all the cons of trans fats and sugars.









I am disturbed by this kind of thinking. Trans fats are just as likely to occur in other store bought foods, as in sweets. Perhaps MORE likely.

I always have something sweet around to eat - usually one or two things. My "sweet" things are usually more healthy than most people's MEALS. So I do not get this idea that sweet things are inherently unhealthy and non-sweet things are better. In ALL areas of food, there are good choices and bad choices to make.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*







I am disturbed by this kind of thinking. Trans fats are just as likely to occur in other store bought foods, as in sweets. Perhaps MORE likely.

I always have something sweet around to eat - usually one or two things. My "sweet" things are usually more healthy than most people's MEALS. So I do not get this idea that sweet things are inherently unhealthy and non-sweet things are better. In ALL areas of food, there are good choices and bad choices to make.

Yes, we have many, many sweets and chips and sweetened cereals that have no artificial colors, flavors, preservatives, HFCS, nor hydrogenated fats. Same with bacon, nitrate and nitrite free chicken bacon. Frozen waffles without wheat, mayo, mustard, etc. without colors and flavors. We just bring these along with us when we visit places. And we bring extra to share. THEY TASTE BETTER! We also bake many cakes, cookies, muffins, cupcakes, brownies from scratch with added protein powders, organic alkaline-free chocolate, aluminum-free baking powder, gluten free flours, natural vanilla, etc. We add flax seed oils, coconut oils etc. and who would prefer that tasteless processed stuff? We also have all natural popsicles and ice cream in abundance for all "meals" of the day.









Our food budget is about equal to our mortgage though. But, I focus on organic fats (where most pesticides are stored) and preservative free convenience foods. But mostly we make sweets delicious at home in abundance and other sweets don't have the allure. Since ds can have all he wants whenever, new sweets are just novelties generally. And we grow many vegetables that are appealing to ds. And he loves fruit. We also use an all natural multivitamin and mineral supplement which are Feingold Diet approved.

"If you make it an issue, it becomes an issue" has been my experience.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, it is true that sweet foods can be nutritious. However, most of them contain sweeteners... sugar, honey, etc. And I believe sugar etc is not good for our bodies, and is addictive.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*

My task is NOT to obstruct his own listening and learning about his body (and its effects on others).

When I override his perceived needs for a food (sugar, etc), he is learning to dismiss his own body signals. I believe that this process interrupts him from experiencing the Non-Life Threatening consequences of his actions and recognizing how they affect himself and others. As a result, we do not intrude in ds's food choices, we offer suggestions, make observations and share information regarding the impact of his actions on us.

I have been very pro allowing my daughter to make her own food choices. My reasoning for this was much like what you are talking about, scubamama. I believed that her body would let her know what it needs in all areas nutritionally, and that I would be doing her a disservice by interrupting that system.

I also believed until very recently that my own sugar/food addiction/binging stuff was psychological, mostly in response to the diet culture, and being shamed and restricted regarding body size and food as a child/teenager.

I started a naturopathic food plan in January of this year, and I have found that my cravings for sugar and non-nutritive foods have disappeared, for the first time in my life. This has really caused me to shift my opinion about the cause of sugar cravings. I really feel like most of the food options we have available in this culture at this time are far removed from what we are meant to consume, and I believe these foods overwhelm our bodies and create imbalance. Which leads to cravings for more of these foods.

My kid was/is a little sugar addict. As much as possible I don't want to create situations with my kid where I am prohibiting her from having certain foods, so if a food is offered and she wants it, that is fine. But we don't keep junk in the house, and I just in the last couple of weeks stopped buying her sweets at the grocery store. And what I am finding is that she is much more apt to eat her vegetables and ezekiel bread and other wholesome and enjoy them.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
"If you make it an issue, it becomes an issue" has been my experience.

I believe this is sometimes true, but not always. As I described above, my experience was that not making it an issue...made it a huge issue. It sounds, scubamama, like you've found a path that works extremely well for your family...but I don't think it will work for every family/child (as it didn't work for mine).

thismama: I would love to hear more about the naturopathic eating plan that you follow--PM me if you have the time!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I wonder....

...are sugar addicts born, or made?

My mother greatly limited, but did not entirely restrict, sugary and "junk" foods. The junk foods I can take or leave, but the sugar...

I love it. So, apparently, does DD.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think ppl can become addicted to sugar at any time. It's not a case of if you don't have it in your childhood, you won't ever be addicted.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Well, it is true that sweet foods can be nutritious. However, most of them contain sweeteners... sugar, honey, etc. And I believe sugar etc is not good for our bodies, and is addictive.

Well, I do not share that belief. However, I do believe that salt is not terribly good for you in large quantities, and is somewhat "addictive" (in the sense that people sometimes crave salty foods, and it's hard to stop eating when you're full).

But, I do not think the answer is to regulate my DS' salt intake. I agree with scubamama that self-awareness is best achieved without regulation.

On a separate note, am I the only mama here who buys foods that my DS likes so that he will STOP eating them? He kept asking for M&M's because MIL gave them to him, so I started keeping them around the house and in a few weeks he completely lost interest. Unfortunately, I found out what I'd been missing and now *I* like to have them.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
"If you make it an issue, it becomes an issue" has been my experience.

I completely agree with that. But we're already at the point where it's an issue. So, how do you go from issue to non-issue, especially where you aren't the only influence (as in Kristi's situation and in mine, where my son is with his dad a few times a week who has quite different eating habits)?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This is the area I need the most help in. I am really enjoying this thread. Luckily it is just me (so far) that has the problem surrounding food. I am tryign to figure out how to NOT pass it on to my dd.

In theory I am definately with Scuba on this one but am having a hard time fathoming the "letting go". So far dd is too little to have experienced many food choices. She still relies heavily on what is available at home. in theory I have never restricted dd's choices and have bought her what she has asked. But with zero TV reception and little interaction with non-line-minded people, she is pretty used to the whole organic foods that my family and friends consume.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I think that a key variable has been our limited exposure to the mainstream diet while ds was quite young. Until he was about 2, breastmilk was ds's preferred sweet.







And my he has a sweet tooth. My main effort is to take optimally nutritious and preferred foods with us wherever we go. And other people love our snacks. Or eat before we go. We buy all natural convenience foods and ds is still inclined to eat them even when other options are available. I do tell him if I believe something has artificial colors, or preservatives or dairy. And I remind him of the substitute we have available at home. Or I offer that we stop to pick it up on our way home. He occasionally imbibes anyway.

Dragonfly, you might consider footing the bill to send nutritious favorite options with ds when he goes to visit. I am sure this would be difficult, but perhaps your ex would consider buying all natural things that your son likes. We have all natural, no artificial colors, no corn syrup lollypops for instance. They are delicious. We buy all natural juice boxes, all natural popsicles, all natural ice cream, granola, chips, etc. And I carry a bag of the dry foods with us in the car all the time. So, they are always readily available. I carry the lollys in my purse and offer them when other options look appealing. We have carob chips and carob powder that we make carob cakes, cookies. And carrot cake and muffins etc. and these are available pretty much every week. Maybe, ds and you could make up a sweet treat to send along to share with the ex.

I found that the more ds is involved in preparing a food, the more of it he trys or consumes. But, the mess involved is incremental too.









I believe the difference between "eat whatever you want" without parental involvement and without information; OR providing all natural options and *discussing* our observations and facilitating self-examination about how the child feels when they consume different foods is HUGE. I am often asking our son 'What do you think your body needs to feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you need something sweet, cold, salty, spicy, crunchy, protein?', 'Are you hungry, tired, thirsty, excited, full of energy?' These type of questions were certainly absent in my childhood. We were told what to eat, when to eat and how much. *Listening to our bodies* wasn't a concept, and certainly it wasn't facilitated. The "unschooling" part of food is the active participation and engagement in the child's experience of nutritional intake. Not just providing an open door or carte blanc food choices.

Although, we never discuss foods as "good" or "bad" or "junk". I help ds to understand 'that has a lot of sugar, it often makes you bouncy; a lot of fat and you won't get hungry as fast; a lot of protein and you usually feel better longer; simple carbohydrates and you might be hungry soon; a lot of vitamins and nutrients in that food, etc.' I don't lecture, we just examine foods together while in the grocery and when we have new choices. I help him to have information of which he may be unaware, and often it is useful to him and occasionally ignored. But, we discuss how we feel _after eating_ something if it has a behavioral effect such as excitement and energy, physicality, difficulty hearing other's boundaries, difficulty sleeping, etc.. And we make accomodations for those needs.

HTH, Pat


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if somebody has already said something similar. I had an epiphany about this the other day. Why does he want to eat crap foodover good food? He has no IDEA that cookies are crap and bananas are good for you. He eats what we let him eat and it seems perfectly ok to him to have cookies and chips and ice cream and a donut in the same day. After all, if mommy and daddy let him eat it and they eat it too, it must be good for you as well as good tasting. We know what is good for us and what is not. But they don't, yet. They just know what is good tasting.
I try to offer him the right food groups, which means actually putting it on a plate instead of asking him if he wants a certain food (he would rather play than eat and his first reaction is always no he isn't hungry). If he chooses not to eat something, at least I know it was offered to him. If he asks for a treat , he can have it. I just don't offer it. But, if I'm eating chips and he wants some, I let him have some 'cause I'm not a hypocrite. I figure if I want to clean up his eating habits, I need to clean up mine first.


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## VelmaLou (Jan 8, 2006)

KristiMetz -- Don't be disturbed! I had a lot more to say, but ended up editing in a way that was not very comprehensible. I'd like to talk about the sugar/junk food culture (and discussing from an "in it" and not "in it" perspective), but I just don't have time these days.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
On a separate note, am I the only mama here who buys foods that my DS likes so that he will STOP eating them? He kept asking for M&M's because MIL gave them to him, so I started keeping them around the house and in a few weeks he completely lost interest.

No, you're not the only one. We're still trying this. We do still struggle with doubt when we have the occasional days when ds wants large amounts of candy. This is not easy to do. But I still believe that allowing him to learn to self-regulate is the best choice for us. We've certainly had fewer food conflicts already.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
I'm having a REALLY hard time believing that kids will choose healthy snacks over junk when they are 100% free to choose.

<snip>

I can't imagine how giving unlimited access to junk foods and healthy foods and just waiting for a kid to realize that junk is gross will work for the majority of kids.

Any thoughts?

Well, I know of hundreds and hundreds of radically unschooled children who choose a huge variety of foods and don't binge on candy all day despite 100% free choice. A critical aspect is that the parent's are not "just waiting for a kid to realize". Rather they are sharing information with their children in a non-judgmental dialogue regarding food, ingredients and their effects on our body, through modelling, self-examination, observations and discussion. It isn't a black and white issue of _no information_ *OR* _parental control_. Freedom to choose provides the opportunity to learn from our choices. How does one learn *how* to choose if they don't have the choice?

Btw, our son will refuse cookies, cake, leave sweets uneaten, and choose many whole foods depending on his preference and taste buds. And, he loves popsicles and has eaten 5 or 6 in a day, eaten three pieces of pie back to back, and eaten 4 bowls of ice cream in a row.







I know plenty of healthy, productive, happy adults who eat much less nutritiously than our free child. My husband is one of them. (I believe that parental diet is the greatest influence to our children's choices).

Pat


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I love you, Pat! Thank you for explaining this all so well!

Because it's become such second nature to do some of this it can be hard to explain.

Like when someone asks how your kid learned to walk: "I don't know--he just started walking when he was ready." Well....yes and no. There was a whole lot of facilitating that took place before (and sometimes during) those first steps. Providing non-slip socks and surfaces, having ledges for him to grab onto and cruise, letting him use my hands for balance, getting down on the floor with him, offering interesting things for him to move toward, picking him up and comforting him when he had setbacks, etc.

It's the same idea with the food. There's lots and lots of facilitating and talking and modelling and providing.

It's NOT, "Here's a bag of Twinkies, go wild."









This page might be interesting for more info on kids without food controls:
http://sandradodd.com/food


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
So what do you do before your kid gets verbal enough to be able to share information and understand things like nutrition, healthy eating choices, etc?

Breastfeed? (Sorry Pat







)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
So what do you do before your kid gets verbal enough to be able to share information and understand things like nutrition, healthy eating choices, etc?

Apparently, you haven't noticed, I just





















, even if it seems that no one is listening.







We have been watching food due to an elimination diet since ds was 8 weeks old. So, he has always heard me 'talking out loud' about my/our food choices. He was basically exclusive breastfeed until 10-15 months. And I only *introduce* that which I believe won't hurt ds. As alternatives which have less nutrient value (or are food intolerances), but perhaps more taste value, according to ds's priorities, he has 100% free choice. Subsequently, as we *observe* behavioral changes, we discuss those: 'oh, that has artificial colors, it seems to have kept you awake last time you ate it'. And I select something as an alternative and offer it. 'How about this sweet thing instead?' And ds has free choice. For instance, I'll mention 'it is after 5 o'clock (he can't tell time), if you eat chocolate, it has caffeine and it has made it really hard to go to sleep. How about a popsicle or some jelly beans instead?' Still 100% free choice, but when something equal or better, according to ds's priorities, he will choose it. Sometimes he will say 'I want something cold', or 'I want some thing spicy, or sweet, or crunchy and we will find something with those characteristics that is preferable to him.

His self-awareness has developed from when something that we avoid due to food intolerances was available. For instance, we avoid dairy. So, when dairy ice cream was available, I might ask 'That has dairy in it. Are you wanting something sweet, or cold?' And he may say 'cold' and I could offer some sorbet. Or he may say 'sweet' and I might offer some snack from the car. Or he may be hungry and we would make an effort to meet his food preferences in that way. It is an on-going communication supporting his self-discovery through introspection. I just offer some of the unlimited possibilities so that he can choose optimally, _according to him_.

HTH, Pat


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My experience with this is that if I eat a high glycemic index diet, I get hungry more often and tend to crave sweets. I wouldn't call this an addiction, it is just the result of eating foods that elevate my blood sugar quickly. All it takes for me to get out of this vicious cycle is to make a point of eating low glycemic index foods for a couple of days. Because I am aware of this, I don't worry so much about ds eating a lot of sugar. I know that it is just as easy for me to get out of that way of eating as to get into it. There is much being said in the media about how what a young child eats is setting up life long habits. That can certainly be the case if the family eats that way and knows no other way. But if the parents eat healthily and educate their children about nutrition, I don't think it is such a concern.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Breastfeed? (Sorry Pat







)









Yep, we did A LOT of that.







Thankfully, since ds had so, so many food intolerances. And now he can eat pretty much anything in moderation. But, he avoids many of the foods so that when something he really has no substitute for is available, he enjoys it fully. He doesn't choose in a vaccuum, I am almost always available with information. But I stop once he makes a choice too. It is so much _easier_ to start discussing all of this when they are young, imo.

Pat


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
My experience with this is that if I eat a high glycemic index diet, I get hungry more often and tend to crave sweets. I wouldn't call this an addiction, it is just the result of eating foods that elevate my blood sugar quickly. All it takes for me to get out of this vicious cycle is to make a point of eating low glycemic index foods for a couple of days.

This is my own experience with my body too. I learned at 30-something that I had to eat protein to feel healthy. And then I can eat about anything and I don't have the sugar lows. Apparently, for many people, it really makes a difference if the first meal of the day includes protein. Ds is aware of this at 5. Most conventional "healthy" breakfast includes cereal, toast, fruit juice, but not protein. We try to eat protein in the morning and the whole day is smoother. And we don't worry about sugar quantity, as the sugar we have in the house doesn't include HFCS. HFCS causes our son to be physically aggressive, loud vocalizations and yelling. Sugar doesn't.

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Wanted to offer a book suggestion...

Sugar Blues, by William Dufty

An Oldie But Goodie.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I believe the difference between "eat whatever you want" without parental involvement and without information; OR providing all natural options and *discussing* our observations and facilitating self-examination about how the child feels when they consume different foods is HUGE. I am often asking our son 'What do you think your body needs to feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you need something sweet, cold, salty, spicy, crunchy, protein?', 'Are you hungry, tired, thirsty, excited, full of energy?'
If only it were that simple for all of us!

Honestly, not all people are like that. Some people become ADDICTED to the foods that hurt them. Like a DRUG. Of course eating that food feels good, it feels like a high. But it acts in the body like poison.

My ds would eat corn-derived foods all day if he could. It makes him high. He feels good when he eats it. It is addicting. If he did eat that way he could die. Its nearly happened more times than I would care to remember (before we figured out his allergies). If it didn't kill him it would likely increase some of his autistic "behaviours". Or he would become very ill later that day.

He craves the foods that hurt him, but he doesn't know they are hurting him. He was a self-regulated child for the first 3 years of his life. He chose things like organic yoghurt, whole wheat bread, , organic crackers with nut butter or cream cheese. Good healthy foods more often than not. Then he stopped eating. He stopped responding to us. He stopped breathing or woke up gasping for air. He vomitted several times a week. Apparently those "healthy" foods he was choosing (by himself with no restrainst from us) were hurting him.

It is naive to think that all bodies are the same. We are all built a little different. Just look at the vast difference in each pregnancy. At the many different types of breastfeeding experiences. In how differently people can experience the same virus.

Just because one method works for some families it doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Different children NEED different things. I am glad I learned this lesson for my ds before it was too late


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

It's also interesting to read about underlying causes for sugar and other food cravings. Deficient intestinal flora (the yeast crave sugar, better bacteria smother out the yeast), plus junk can ferment in the gut with the yeast, producing alcohol (and therefore more addiction). Magnesium deficiencies relate to chocolate cravings. . . . It's only possible to be self-regulating if healthy.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I agree.

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.

A body that is out of balance in any way will swing like a pendulum searching for balance - IME causing many more problems in it's quest.

.


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## faeriewisp (Mar 13, 2005)

I think that 5 years old is too young to expect a child to make his own logical choices about food concerning the information we give them.

Just because we live in a society filled with choices does not mean that our children are suddenly born in this day and age able to make their own choices. Up until the past 50 years or so, children ate what they were given and they were given what the parents had. Kids did not used to go grocery shopping several times a week and see all the prettily wrapped junk.

I'm trying to raise my children as anti-consumers. I want them to be independent and able to make good choices, when they have the ability to logically think. Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.

I think 5 year olds should eat what is given to them, without having to question Is this junk? I really want to eat this even though my mom says it's junk.

I think it's important to offer regular wholesome meals as the norm. I want to give my kids a good basis for freedom and I don't think being bogged down with unnecessary choices is free.

I'm not saying we should never give our young children choices, I just really feel like food is a basic need I need to provide for my children. I don't feel like it's a born right for my daughter to get to choose everything she eats. THat's just not how it happens in the real, natural world.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
This is my own experience with my body too. I learned at 30-something that I had to eat protein to feel healthy. And then I can eat about anything and I don't have the sugar lows. Apparently, for many people, it really makes a difference if the first meal of the day includes protein.

This is also me and it took me a LONG time to realize it, because I don't _like_ protein the morning. I've started eating hard-boiled eggs, because they're about the only non-carb thing I can stomach when I first get up.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faeriewisp*
I think that 5 years old is too young to expect a child to make his own logical choices about food concerning the information we give them.

Just because we live in a society filled with choices does not mean that our children are suddenly born in this day and age able to make their own choices. Up until the past 50 years or so, children ate what they were given and they were given what the parents had. Kids did not used to go grocery shopping several times a week and see all the prettily wrapped junk.

I'm trying to raise my children as anti-consumers. I want them to be independent and able to make good choices, when they have the ability to logically think. Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.

I think 5 year olds should eat what is given to them, without having to question Is this junk? I really want to eat this even though my mom says it's junk.

I think it's important to offer regular wholesome meals as the norm. I want to give my kids a good basis for freedom and I don't think being bogged down with unnecessary choices is free.

I'm not saying we should never give our young children choices, I just really feel like food is a basic need I need to provide for my children. I don't feel like it's a born right for my daughter to get to choose everything she eats. THat's just not how it happens in the real, natural world.









:


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colleen95*
No, you're not the only one. We're still trying this. We do still struggle with doubt when we have the occasional days when ds wants large amounts of candy. This is not easy to do. But I still believe that allowing him to learn to self-regulate is the best choice for us. We've certainly had fewer food conflicts already.

I haven't had much time to keep up with this thread. Colleen, I just wanted to say I'm glad you're seeing good results. My DS was obsessed with the lollipops for about a day and now he has started to go back to being indifferent. Not there completely, but he's getting there.

it is really interesting to me. Now that he's older, it takes a MUCH shorter time for that to happen. I think he realized to some extent, on a more conscious level, that if something is kept in the house, it is there whenever he asks for it. So the whole process happens a lot faster. Although, we don't get to test the theory very often because food is not a big issue, UNLESS you count me wishing I didn't make everything from scratch and wishing we could eat at Sonic every night for the rest of our lives!









Anyway, I didn't want to breeze through the thread without replying to you.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Faeriewisp, I disagree with your logic.








Quote:

Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.
For example, for the first time, my sister was going to take our son to the park while dh and I went to an early dinner. Ds, age 4.97, spontaneously says "Dada will need to pick you up at Aunt Sissy's and drive you to dinner. You will need to leave your car so that Sissy can drive us to the park." This type of awareness of cause and effect, or anticipatory projection was totally his *logic* regarding his need for a carseat to ride to the park. I had not suggested this as a problem to be solved. We had never had this situation occur before. But, our son considered with forethought the needs of the situation and created a logical solution which incorporated everyone's needs. Frankly, even I was amazed. However, he has always had the opportunity to negotiate for solutions which meet his needs and he has frequent practice incorporating other people's needs concurrently.

I believe "logic" is a skill that develops with practice and experience. To me it is logical that the earlier one starts relying on their own choices, and experiencing non-life threatening consequences (with the safety net of a supportive parent), the sooner they are *able* to use logic. The assumption upon which the quoted belief is made is self-fulfilling, imo. If we assume that our child isn't logical or can't think logically, then we obviously don't provide him with opportunities to use his own judgement. If we override his logic "for his own good", we short-circuit his learning potential, imo.

I don't believe that it is different for food choices, being tired enough to go to bed, clothing choices when it is cold, etc. I do agree that it is not "simple" to trust our child. And it is difficult to believe that information alone could be enough for him to make the choices we deem best. However, I do believe that our child has a strong survival instinct and is able to choose what is best for himself based upon his priorities. I don't believe that he has complete information. However, I don't believe that we, his parents, do either. Children are not evolved to make decisions in a vaccum, none of us are. But I don't believe that children will make life threatening ones if they have experience practicing their judgement with an attuned, attentive, supportive parent. This level of parental awareness, facilitation and engagement is easier with one child than several, I imagine. But that doesn't mean that children are not *able* to be logical until an older age. To me, it means that they haven't had the opportunity to develop the skills of logical decision making. Making decisions implies having a choice.

Granted, there are some few children who have a chemical reaction to some foods which impairs their judgement. However, we have found that despite our son having impaired judgement when he consumes dairy, artificial colors, flavors and some preservatives, or high fructose corn syrup, that he *does* choose not to consume them in large enough quantities to impair his judgement enough to be life threatening, damaging to property or harmful to others. And we do share information and observations regarding the effect of these foods on his body and behavior. And he chooses to consume plenty of variety in his diet which has helped him to remain quite healthy. I am not disputing any of FreeRangeMama's experience. It sounds quite frightening and life-threatening. But, sugar isn't causing anyone to stop breathing, from what I have heard.

Sometimes the Boogie Man isn't real.

Pat


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *provocativa*
It's also interesting to read about underlying causes for sugar and other food cravings. Deficient intestinal flora (the yeast crave sugar, better bacteria smother out the yeast), plus junk can ferment in the gut with the yeast, producing alcohol (and therefore more addiction). Magnesium deficiencies relate to chocolate cravings. . . . It's only possible to be self-regulating if healthy.

Yes, THANK YOU for pointing this out. I think it's very important for people to understand this. If someone has problems with cravings, they should look at the underlying reason and FIX it. The craving itself is not the problem, the problem is whatever is causing the craving.

Quote:

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.

A body that is out of balance in any way will swing like a pendulum searching for balance - IME causing many more problems in it's quest.
I agree!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.
Yes, but I believe it is impossible to be in a 100% natural and healthy state anymore, at least not while living in a modern culture. Our environment is full of toxins, pesticides, foods that have been leached of their nutritional value, polluted air, chemical laden water . . .

Scubamama - I philosophically like much of what you've had to say, but one aspect of it stands out for me. You've talked about how your son is free to make the choice after you've explained how it may make him act - moody, not sleeping well, etc. My issue with this is that the rest of us have to deal with that. It's not fair to me to have to deal with an overtired child who won't go to sleep just because he made the choice to eat six popsicles. It's not fair to his younger brother to deal with aggressive behavior because he chose to start his day out with leftover birthday cake. And I guess that's one of the reasons that I don't feel like just not having anything in the house is a good option - it's not fair that no one else gets to have a little sweet treat now and then because one child demands it all day long.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Yes, but I believe it is impossible to be in a 100% natural and healthy state anymore, at least not while living in a modern culture. Our environment is full of toxins, pesticides, foods that have been leached of their nutritional value, polluted air, chemical laden water . . .

Okay, no one has perfect health, but I still think we can come close enough that we can regulate our own bodies.....


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Granted, there are some few children who have a chemical reaction to some foods which impairs their judgement. However, we have found that despite our son having impaired judgement when he consumes dairy, artificial colors, flavors and some preservatives, or high fructose corn syrup, that he *does* choose not to consume them in large enough quantities to impair his judgement enough to be life threatening, damaging to property or harmful to others. And we do share information and observations regarding the effect of these foods on his body and behavior. And he chooses to consume plenty of variety in his diet which has helped him to remain quite healthy. I am not disputing any of FreeRangeMama's experience. It sounds quite frightening and life-threatening. But, sugar isn't causing anyone to stop breathing, from what I have heard.

Sometimes the Boogie Man isn't real.

Pat, I love what you have to say about how children develop logic skills. I agree 100%. I think that the issue here is all about how we define "food".

IMO, sugar is not a food. Not even the "organic" or "raw" stuff. I know that is an unpopular belief here - and everywhere - but the history of sugar production and consumption makes it pretty clear to me that it is not food.

Many of the additives and refined products that are commonly eaten I would not consider food. I would not have them accessable in the pantry any more than I would styrofoam. Even if everyone else on the planet decided that styrofoam was really tasty, gave you quick energy, and wasn't really too bad for you in small quantities... I just wouldn't agree.

For those things I consider non-foods, I believe there is no safe intake. Sure, there is a quantity that we can eat and not die. Even an amount that we can eat and _get by_ without "serious" consequences. Until later... The sludge adds up after a while. It's not only the immediate or short-term responses to non-food that I'm concerned about for my family.

I'm trying to do more with my body than get by. I want to thrive. I want to live in a state of absolute optimal health physically, mentally, and emotionally. I want that for DS and DH too. The only means to that is eating foods we evolved to eat, in the way we evolved to eat them. I know there is no shortage of opinions about what that means. I have mine, based of what feels right and appeals to my logic. I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience.

Luckily, DH and I have always seen eye-to-eye on this one.









I feel that I owe DS an absolute free range of _food_ choices... per my understanding of food. I wouldn't make alcohol, heroin, or cigarettes available either. They also don't fit in my definition of _food_. (Hyperbolic example, everyone.







) I simply can't be OK with spending a penny of our money on anything that will ultimately cause my family to suffer - either sooner or later.

Despite DH's and my request, he does get junk at the ILs and my mom's house. We talk to DS about it. As he gets older and has more independent access to food and non-food, we will keep the conversation going. And by conversation, I don't mean "lecture". But I will tell him what I know about what junk does to our bodies. Both how to tune into how his own body feels, and especially about the effects we can't immediately perceive.

I will let him know about what others have learned by the end of their lives, so that he doesn't have to live solely by trial-and-error until at age 65, he learns that the little bit of junk he liked to have everyday and thought was no problem, had caught up to him. I just owe him that wisdom. But I will not control his eating.

Maybe he will choose to eat junk, and if he does have health issues later because of it, at least he will have done so with all the knowledge I can give him about that possibility. It won't happen blindly.

Gotta go play trains _again!!!!!_ Wish I could've polished this up a little bit...


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## VelmaLou (Jan 8, 2006)

That is _precisely_ what I wanted to write the other day!


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Slightly OT but relevant.

I think moms today have a harder job with dealing with food than in previous generations. When I was a kid, there weren't candy displays at every blessed store. Now, they are at the thrift stores, craft and cloth stores, and home centers as well as the convenience stores and grocery stores. I can't think of one place that I go that doesn't have a candy display. Oh, the paint store didn't have any, but I only go there every few years. Plus, there is such a greater variety of candy and snacks. Since it is unavoidable, it has to be dealt with somehow.


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## faeriewisp (Mar 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Faeriewisp, I disagree with your logic.









I believe "logic" is a skill that develops with practice and experience. To me it is logical that the earlier one starts relying on their own choices, and experiencing non-life threatening consequences (with the safety net of a supportive parent), the sooner they are *able* to use logic. The assumption upon which the quoted belief is made is self-fulfilling, imo. If we assume that our child isn't logical or can't think logically, then we obviously don't provide him with opportunities to use his own judgement. If we override his logic "for his own good", we short-circuit his learning potential, imo.

I don't believe that it is different for food choices, being tired enough to go to bed, clothing choices when it is cold, etc. I do agree that it is not "simple" to trust our child. And it is difficult to believe that information alone could be enough for him to make the choices we deem best. However, I do believe that our child has a strong survival instinct and is able to choose what is best for himself based upon his priorities. I don't believe that he has complete information. However, I don't believe that we, his parents, do either. Children are not evolved to make decisions in a vaccum, none of us are. But I don't believe that children will make life threatening ones if they have experience practicing their judgement with an attuned, attentive, supportive parent. This level of parental awareness, facilitation and engagement is easier with one child than several, I imagine. But that doesn't mean that children are not *able* to be logical until an older age. To me, it means that they haven't had the opportunity to develop the skills of logical decision making. Making decisions implies having a choice.

Granted, there are some few children who have a chemical reaction to some foods which impairs their judgement. However, we have found that despite our son having impaired judgement when he consumes dairy, artificial colors, flavors and some preservatives, or high fructose corn syrup, that he *does* choose not to consume them in large enough quantities to impair his judgement enough to be life threatening, damaging to property or harmful to others. And we do share information and observations regarding the effect of these foods on his body and behavior. And he chooses to consume plenty of variety in his diet which has helped him to remain quite healthy. I am not disputing any of FreeRangeMama's experience. It sounds quite frightening and life-threatening. But, sugar isn't causing anyone to stop breathing, from what I have heard.

Sometimes the Boogie Man isn't real.

Pat

I totally agree that logic develops gradually from birth and not just after a certain age.







I also think that a parent who provides lots of opportunities for choice and examples of LOGIC will find that her child can become more logical earlier.

Well I think there's plenty of time in life to practice such skills, and while my children are young, I just want them to play and explore the world around them in their own way. I want to present them with a homeschooling life so rich and wonderful, including good food, that they don't have to learn how to choose yet what's good or bad. The world is so wonderful and the day so full that there's simply not enough time to ponder certain choices. Both food, TV and bedtime are areas where I don't provide my 5 year old a choice yet.

I just wanted to add that "logical" isn't really the right word to describe this food topic. Maybe the concept of "applying morals" is the point I'm trying to make. THe more logical thinking that comes in around 7-8 may not really be logic, but just a greater understanding of what's right and wrong. I don't think a 5 year old should have to carry the burden of weighing the good and bad of sugar candy vs fruit.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Unless you make all your own foods from scratch for every meal and snack, and never add any sugar in them, your family is geting sugar in many forms all day long. Also, as the pp has said, potatoes and other starches turn right into sugar anyway.

We are not eating starches, grains, or sugars except honey, so we do control what ds has access to but we don't force feed him anything.=. There are days when all he eats is fruit, and on those days, he doesn't nap and only gets about 7 or 8 hours' sleep at night.


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