# Obey right away, all the way, every day...



## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

to the tne of twinkle, twinkle.

I got this idea from another board. I like it and when i sing it, DD joins me (most of the time) and it changes the mood. But, it doesn't always work...and my DH isn't as good at keeping it playful. Sometimes instead of singing, he kind of lectures it...says the words in a stern voice. I almost think the song has gotten us thinking that she _should_ be able to obey right away & all the time and that's not really true for a 2 1/2 year old.

So *what do you do* when you ask your toddler to do something and they don't? My DH immediately gets angry (he's really a good dad, but both of us were raised in abusive homes so it's really a lot of work for us to learn new ways to parent)

ETA: I can see where this is leading and that's not really where i want this to go. I know that a lot of people on this board don't agree with the concept of obedience. What I am looking for here is what to do to get my child to do what i want, when it's necessary.

For instance...we bought my 2 1/2 year old a mini Christmas tree that we let her decorate with her own ornaments. It has lights and we plugged it in at her little play table. She is constantly unplugging it and moving it around the house. No matter how Ive explained why i don't want her to do it she continues to do it. I don't want to take the tree away from her, I just want her to let it sit on the table. So is there a good technique that will help her do this.


----------



## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

I don't really think of behaviour in terms of "obedience". To me that suggests that I am in command and my children are expected to follow orders. This just isn't consistent with our parenting philosophy. I feel it's my job as a parent to help my children understand WHY it's important that we brush teeth, eat nutritious food, not hit, share toys, stay away from moving cars, etc. Even my two year old becomes immediately more cooperative when I explain why I want him to do things.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I do like my kids to follow directions and be cooperative, and I encourage that. However, the words to that song give me the creeps, kinda. People shouldn't really "obey right away, all the way, everyday." I think kids need to be taught to think things through carefully and make good choices, to question conventions, and to voice their needs/ suggest compromises. Developing those skills will take them a lot further in life and relationships than learning instant obedience.


----------



## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vancouver Mommy* 
I don't really think of behaviour in terms of "obedience". To me that suggests that I am in command and my children are expected to follow orders. This just isn't consistent with our parenting philosophy. I feel it's my job as a parent to help my children understand WHY it's important that we brush teeth, eat nutritious food, not hit, share toys, stay away from moving cars, etc. Even my two year old becomes immediately more cooperative when I explain why I want him to do things.

I agree with everything you say to an extent. But, there is a time (not necessarily at 2)when I will ask my child to do something and expect it to be done, whether there is an explanation or not. I am pretty sure that's the definition of "obey." I'm not really looking for this kind of discussion - just tips or advice on how to get your child to do what you want and what age I can expect it consistently.


----------



## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
For instance...we bought my 2 1/2 year old a mini Christmas tree that we let her decorate with her own ornaments. It has lights and we plugged it in at her little play table. She is constantly unplugging it and moving it around the house. No matter how Ive explained why i don't want her to do it she continues to do it. I don't want to take the tree away from her, I just want her to let it sit on the table. *So is there a good technique that will help her do this*.

Put the tree out of reach. She's 2 1/2, the tree is fascinating. She's gonna touch it, she's gonna play with it. I'm way older than 2 1/2 but if an enticing toy, like an iPhone or laptop, was in my work space, I'm going to play with it, no matter how many times I'm told not to. I just might be very sneaky about it

I totally agree there are times when they need to follow directions, like when safety is involved. I generally think that if it is a safety matter, don't rely on their ability to follow verbal directions and cooperate to keep them safe. They're just not mature enough to be able to do that.

You might want to have a look at the Playful Parenting anecdotes thread to get some ideas about how to get kids to do things they don't necessarily want to do, but need to do.


----------



## Kikelet (Jun 21, 2007)

Maybe you can let her play with the tree at certain times, but put it back in its more permanent location if she can't keep it in one place. Before you give it to her you can also tell her that she can pick one place to play with it, but if she moves it from the special tree spot, it has to go back up.

ETA: I think this is an appropriate request at her age, and it's ok to take it away if she can't follow the tree rules.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

A really excellent book for you would be: Parenting with Purpose by Linda Madison. The book is out of print, but copies are still available on Amazon, or you can ask for it through your library (if they don't have it, ask for Interlibrary Loan). (I personally never buy books unless I KNOW I'm going to use it.)

The reason I like this book is because it talks first about how you need to figure out what your parenting philosophy is before you implement any techniques. Knowing WHY you're doing what you're doing is more important than a technique (such as time out, or Playful Parenting).

It also talks about age appropriate behavior and expectations. If you grew up in an abusive house, you or your dh may have very little experience with age-appropriate expectations. For example, your dd is in a stage of development where she's learning via physical exploration. Thus, expecting her to have a tree of her own and not play with it is unreasonable. She needs to touch it, handle it, etc. She's not doing this to be naughty, but because this is how kids this age explore things. In our house, I'd let my kids drag it around. If you choose not to do this, then the fair thing to do is either to have a designated spot where she can explore it, and then put it back when she's done, or put it out of reach so it's not an issue.

Finally, the book talks about ways to make things work for you. One of the strategies I love is to set things up so you minimize conflicts. A basic example is baby proofing. You know that your child is going to explore, so if you set up some rooms where it's safe for her to explore, then you remove a lot of 'no, don't touch that' kind of conflicts. For situations where you don't have that kind of control, you can help your children explore and teach them a 'one finger' touch. I did this with my kids when we were visiting a colleague's house one Christmas season. They had a very tempting, fragile snow globe. I took it down, we explored it together. They touched it gently, and then I put it back on a higher table. They were happy, the snow globe was safe.


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
So *what do you do* when you ask your toddler to do something and they don't? My DH immediately gets angry (he's really a good dad, but both of us were raised in abusive homes so it's really a lot of work for us to learn new ways to parent)

Well when my 4 year DD was a toddler I didn't expect her to be able to resist her impulses enough to do what I asked most of the time. If it was something dangerous I'd say 'oh that's dangerous' and put the item out of reach. If a tantrum ensued we'd be sympathetic with her desire but explain it really was dangerous. Over the last 2 years her impulse control has developed alot, but there are still things she can't resist. We don't let those things become an issue. We just don't have unrealistic expectations. She is usually polite, co-operative and helpful most of the time now. I do have a child that tells me to 'be careful, that's dangerous' and that specific things are 'too expensive'.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't approach it as "taking it away from her". I'd approach it as "putting it up where she can see it but where she won't get hurt."

She can't help touching things at that age. I'm afraid nothing is going to make a 2-1/2 year old have much if any impulse control. Toddlers are like walking babies. They are little explorers and just can't keep themselves from exploring and experimenting with things.

And I know you like this "obey all the way" song, but that just seems scary to me. A child who is taught to obey her parents will learn to obey all adults, and a child who is taught to obey to do good things will also obey to do bad things. She won't be old enough to control herself to obey until she's old enough for you to explain things to and have her understand anyway. You could just explain your reasons and work with her.


----------



## abharrington (Jun 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
And I know you like this "obey all the way" song, but that just seems scary to me. *A child who is taught to obey her parents will learn to obey all adults, and a child who is taught to obey to do good things will also obey to do bad things.* She won't be old enough to control herself to obey until she's old enough for you to explain things to and have her understand anyway. You could just explain your reasons and work with her.


I'd like to respectfully disagree. We teach our children to obey us (us being mama and daddy) but they already know this is not a blanket statement to obey every adult. We give them very specific instruction if they are to obey another adult and this would only happen when we are not with them. (ie. babysitter).

as far as when children are able to control impulses, reason and explaination...human brains are not fully developed until at least age 25. this may contribute to why teens and 20's often have problems with things like alcohol, driving and drugs.

i definatly agree with the OP about avoiding all possible conflicts. our home is set up so that things the children cannot have are not in reach. I also do not expect good behavior when they have not had good food, good sleep and good play (some might say 'quality time'). i think realistic expectations are SO SO SO important.

all that said...i think you dd could learn rules for her tree. or, if you feel she can't...i would put it up for her to 'look at with her eyes.'

We also find the one finger rule WONDERFUL for when we are out in public, shopping, nature walks, etc. Dd can touch to her little hearts content but does not end up breakign things (or filling my cart.)


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Well, your specific question about the tree, the way to make sure it stays put is to get a taller table.

In general, you really really really really really really need to get the book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline". And have your dh read it first.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Oh, and for me, if it really matters that my child does what I want, I pick her up and make it happen. Like staying on the sidewalk, she heads for the road too much, I carry her right back into the yard. Going for the cat food? We both move into the kitchen. My 4 year old niece is better about verbal commands and she still needs to be physically moved sometimes. Heck, I've got a couple 6 year old friends who get picked up by their mom on occasion.

And really, knowing that if it was really truly vital that something happened that I could make it happen lets me relax about the small stuff.

Oh, and what creeps me out about the obey song is how will your DD handle making mistakes? Even if she's the sort of kid who naturally wants to do everything "right" and follow all your rules, what happens to her when a time comes that she can't follow your rules?


----------



## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

www.enjoyparenting.com


----------



## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

I'm having a hard time imagining how those words could be said to the tune of twinkle twinkle


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abharrington* 
I'd like to respectfully disagree. We teach our children to obey us (us being mama and daddy) but they already know this is not a blanket statement to obey every adult. We give them very specific instruction if they are to obey another adult and this would only happen when we are not with them. (ie. babysitter).

My fear there would be that young kids aren't very good at differentiation. "Obey these adults all the time, these adults some of the time, but you don't have to obey these adults all of the time, or these adults any of the time" is a bit much to expect a young kid to really get. What we teach them and what they learn aren't always the same thing.

Edited to add that there's some personal baggage behind my answer. I was taught to obey, and only my parents but then also my babysitter (my parents both worked.) But I didn't really get that. I remember being confused about things adults told me to do I thought I shouldn't do, but an adult told me and my thought was that if I wasn't sure to err on the side of obeying - like I knew I'd get in trouble if I didn't obey when I should have, but I didn't think I'd get in trouble for obeying when I didn't need to. And my sister certainly didn't understand and was molested by an adult she thought she had to obey.


----------



## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

""It also talks about age appropriate behavior and expectations. If you grew up in an abusive house, you or your dh may have very little experience with age-appropriate expectations. For example, your dd is in a stage of development where she's learning via physical exploration. Thus, expecting her to have a tree of her own and not play with it is unreasonable. She needs to touch it, handle it, etc. She's not doing this to be naughty, but because this is how kids this age explore things. In our house, I'd let my kids drag it around. If you choose not to do this, then the fair thing to do is either to have a designated spot where she can explore it, and then put it back when she's done, or put it out of reach so it's not an issue. ""

My quote thingy isn't working, but I just wanted to say







.

That song gives me the creeps. I have a 9 year old and a 7 year old and while I expect them to listen to me, I dont expect them to drop everything and march over like a little robot when I give them commands. If I ask them to do something and they need to finish what their doing, I give them that. Also, things like safety rules are easily explainable at about 4 years old and up so..I guess I would say at about age 4 or 5 you can expect them to understand what you are saying more, and follow rules.
But why give her a tree to decorate and then not let her play with it? She doesn't understand the difference yet.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
I agree with everything you say to an extent. But, there is a time (not necessarily at 2)when I will ask my child to do something and expect it to be done, whether there is an explanation or not. I am pretty sure that's the definition of "obey." I'm not really looking for this kind of discussion - just tips or advice on how to get your child to do what you want and what age I can expect it consistently.

That's only the rule here if it's a safety thing. And it applies to everyone in the house. If someone has a safety concern, everyone stops until it's worked out.

If you are Christian (and where I live this song kind of thing is most popular among conservative Christians), you might get some great ideas for "grace based discipline" at www.gentlechristianmothers.com

I think you are wise to think ahead since your child will develop their own ideas and ways of doing things....and that process is sometimes pretty messy. That often triggers profound anger in someone who has been abused. Planning a non-angry, playful response strikes me as a very good thing.

I found the book Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen very helpful for that.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I remove things that dd doesn't have the maturity to handle safely, think about whether my request is a reasonable one or not, give choices I am happy with either way, and gently guide my dd so she can listen to what I tell her to do when I think I am making a reasonable request. I don't go for the obeying stuff, that is what men who beat their wives demand in my experience and just the word makes me ill.


----------



## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Oh, and for me, if it really matters that my child does what I want, I pick her up and make it happen. Like staying on the sidewalk, she heads for the road too much, I carry her right back into the yard. Going for the cat food? We both move into the kitchen. My 4 year old niece is better about verbal commands and she still needs to be physically moved sometimes. Heck, I've got a couple 6 year old friends who get picked up by their mom on occasion.



Exactly. We did this for safety and health reasons, only when necessary, and coupled it with a very calm quiet voice using imperatives ("Stop. A car could hit you."). We use absolute statements very very rarely, and to this day they respect it. This seems to be working well from a temperament match, too, since both our kids respond to it. They see us consciously working to not abuse our authority -- physical when they were small, moral now that they're taller than I am, which is why we just use the verbal component now







. A very quiet voice giving only one option cuts through everything, if a respectful foundation's been laid.

More immediately for you, would a 3-D stuffed fabric tree, or maybe a wooden one, be a "touchable" option for your LO? I agree with other posters who say a tree that needs to be left where it is ought to be out of reach for a 2 1/2 y.o. It's just too pretty!


----------



## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weliveintheforest* 
I'm having a hard time imagining how those words could be said to the tune of twinkle twinkle

















I thought the same thing!

I will say, I am more in the camp of believing that children should obey their parents than most people on MDC, but that song seems a little creepy even to me.


----------



## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I have been wandering around for 3 days trying to sing this song in my head, too. My kids looked at me funny when I burst out in Twinkle, twinkle while I was getting their plates tonight...I was trying to get the tune down. Ha! I'm with ya' pp's.

I also think kids should obey. I also don't like the song. It's too simplistic, and robotic. Maybe "Please do what Mama says, she loves you" or something...but "obey right away"? I dunno...it's just lacking and, yeah, creepy.

If we had a tree like that for my 2.5 ds, and he kept plugging it in and out (which is the real problem, right?), on a better parenting day I would...

1.) Evaluate WHY he is doing it...
2.) Evaluate WHY I care...
3.) Try to think of a compromise...

She isn't exactly being defiant, disrespectful, or disobediet here. (I believe that's the "catch phrase" right?). Anyway, she's not doing it for the sole reason of not obeying you. There's more too it. That's childishness. And something they'll grow out of on their own. The other stuff I spend more time on...the deliberate.

So..if my 2.5yo ds was plugging the light in everywhere, I would figure he probably wants to know if it works in ALL the sockets. EVERY time. So, I would say, "Buddy, this isn't for little guys to do. It's for Mama's. Do you want to see it again?" And I would do it for him. I'd make it clear, after a though examination of all the sockets, that he come get me if he wanted to see it again, and I'd be happy to help him so he didn't get hurt. (With my 4yo literal dd, I would add..."I know you did it and didn't get hurt, and you won't always, but..." and I would proceed with another explaination on that account.)

THEN...if he did it again without asking me for help, I would phrase the question for him. "Oh, hey. Remember? You were supposed to ask Mama for help. Let's try that, okay?" And then I'd help him.

After several times of that, when I was sure he knew the drill, if I was still having trouble with him, I would say, "You have to ask Mama for help. If you don't ask Mama, Mama will have to put the tree away."

Then, if it happened again, I would put it away, remind him of the conversation, and assure him he could try again tomorrow.

I know that seems like a lot for a 2.5yo, but my guy "gets it." We go slow, and explain lots, but I do expect him to control himself.

I disagree that the little ones can't. I agree that you can't COUNT on them to do it, but I am positive that you can expect them to.


----------



## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Try telling her what TO DO, not what NOT to do. For example, with the tree, you'll probably need to repeatedly tell her things like "You can move all the ornaments where ever you want, but the tree stays right here" and "Let's leave the tree on the table, OK?"

And you might need to take it away. Now that she's knows it's mobile, she doesn't really have the impulse control at 2.5 to be able to stop herself even if she "knows" the rule. Maybe call that a preview, and bring the tree back out a couple days before Christmas. It may well be just too much temptation for her. OR, you can adjust your attitude about it and allow her to move it where ever she wants and you just have to get over it.

And yeah, I'd stop singing that song right quick. Doesn't seem to be helping anyone remember anything, except maybe giving you and your partner unrealistic expectations of her behavior.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 

I disagree that the little ones can't. I agree that you can't COUNT on them to do it, but I am positive that you can expect them to.

This is largely an issue of semantics then. Because if you expect them to control themselves, you'd have to count on them being able to. If they aren't able to enough for you to count on them to do it, how can you expect them to? That's setting them up for failure.


----------



## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I can expect that the bagger who puts my groceries in the car will not squish my bread. I can't count on the bagger not to squish my bread, so I ask for the bread bag when they start loading. There is a difference between count on and expect.

I expect my children to listen to me, and I guide them to do so. I don't trust that they will 100%, so I don't let my 2 yo play outside without me (we live on a busy street). I expect when we are outside that he will stay in our yard. If he doesn't, I gently guide him back to our boundaries and reinforce the lesson as neccessary. Just because I EXPECT him not to go out of the yard doesn't mean that he will stay in.

It seems I read in the these threads a lot that a child CAN'T, so don't even try. And I just don't think that's true. I think we sell our children short of what they can be, and I think we keep them from doing a lot of things they could enjoy because we don't give them the chance to work on impulse control, because we don't expect they can get it.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
I can expect that the bagger who puts my groceries in the car will not squish my bread. I can't count on the bagger not to squish my bread, so I ask for the bread bag when they start loading. There is a difference between count on and expect.

I expect my children to listen to me, and I guide them to do so. I don't trust that they will 100%, so I don't let my 2 yo play outside without me (we live on a busy street). I expect when we are outside that he will stay in our yard. If he doesn't, I gently guide him back to our boundaries and reinforce the lesson as neccessary. Just because I EXPECT him not to go out of the yard doesn't mean that he will stay in.

It seems I read in the these threads a lot that a child CAN'T, so don't even try. And I just don't think that's true. I think we sell our children short of what they can be, and I think we keep them from doing a lot of things they could enjoy because we don't give them the chance to work on impulse control, because we don't expect they can get it.


I totally agree with this.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Then this is just an issue of semantics, because I do everything you do, but I don't use the word "expect". And, when I say "they can't", I just mean you can't count on it happening all the time. I don't think anyone says you shouldn't work on things if they can't control themselves, and I'd work on things exactly like you do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
I can expect that the bagger who puts my groceries in the car will not squish my bread. I can't count on the bagger not to squish my bread, so I ask for the bread bag when they start loading. There is a difference between count on and expect.

I expect my children to listen to me, and I guide them to do so. I don't trust that they will 100%, so I don't let my 2 yo play outside without me (we live on a busy street). I expect when we are outside that he will stay in our yard. If he doesn't, I gently guide him back to our boundaries and reinforce the lesson as neccessary. Just because I EXPECT him not to go out of the yard doesn't mean that he will stay in.

It seems I read in the these threads a lot that a child CAN'T, so don't even try. And I just don't think that's true. I think we sell our children short of what they can be, and I think we keep them from doing a lot of things they could enjoy because we don't give them the chance to work on impulse control, because we don't expect they can get it.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

A child who is taught to obey her parents will learn to obey all adults, and a child who is taught to obey to do good things will also obey to do bad things.
I don't think so. My children know that they have to obey dh and myself, but they've also been taught that they don't have to obey anyone who we haven't told them to, and that they never have to do anything that makes them uncomfortable.

As far as children being taken advantage of goes, I know from personal experience that children who don't have to listen to adults can be taken advantage of just as well as ones that think they have to listen. It's nice to think that by not teaching our kids to obey that they'll be safer somehow, but I highly doubt that it has any basis in reality.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I don't think so. My children know that they have to obey dh and myself, but they've also been taught that they don't have to obey anyone who we haven't told them to, and that they never have to do anything that makes them uncomfortable.

As far as children being taken advantage of goes, I know from personal experience that children who don't have to listen to adults can be taken advantage of just as well as ones that think they have to listen. It's nice to think that by not teaching our kids to obey that they'll be safer somehow, but I highly doubt that it has any basis in reality.

I know that children who are not taught obedience can be molested, but I don't have to give child molesters a tool. And they do use obedience as a tool.


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I once started reading a "pearl" website to see how crazy it was and came away with a subtle feeling that my kids SHOULD obey first time, every-time, so yes- I agree that stopping the song is a good idea. It must be a leftover remnant from our childhoods and the feeling that "we" never got away with this stuff, but then again, we were often obeying out of fear.
Impulse control only starts developing after 4 years so really need to put things out of the way if you don't want a 2 year old to get it. Otherwise you have a lot of work ahead of you distracting, re-directing etc. Would be less frustrating for all involved to just move it.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
1.) Evaluate WHY he is doing it...
2.) Evaluate WHY I care...
3.) Try to think of a compromise...

So..if my 2.5yo ds was plugging the light in everywhere, I would ....









: This is great. Now, if only I could figure out how to stay interested in the activity as long as she does.


----------



## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Maybe it is the "Hi-Ho-the dairy-o" tune?

I personally do think it is important for children to learn to obey people in authority over them - not blind obedience, but obey. I think that being non-obedient may or may not be helpful in protecting a child from harm, but I also think it can cause them a lot of harm to be disobedient. For one, being non-obedient puts a child on a teacher's short list, and causes the child and teacher to have a more strained relationship. And the non-obedient child is not able to experience as many places or things as early as one who can obey and behave themselves.

I don't personally like the song - I do find it a bit creepy too.

When a child does not obey, I help them obey. I ask my DD to come and brush her teeth. If she doesn't come, I help her come to the bathroom to do it. Sometimes I carry her. Sometimes I hop her like a frog. Sometimes we walk together. But she goes there when I ask her to.

Tjej


----------



## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
I have been wandering around for 3 days trying to sing this song in my head, too. My kids looked at me funny when I burst out in Twinkle, twinkle while I was getting their plates tonight...I was trying to get the tune down. Ha! I'm with ya' pp's.

Ok...I have absolutey nothing constructive to add to this conversation except to say that this totally cracked me up. Someone was walking by my office as I sat here laughing. they probably thought I was crazy.

I too was trying to figure out how these words go with the song/ I am at work and can't sing out loud, but I have had twinkle twinkle going through my brain for the last few minutes and can not figure it out for the life of me.


----------

