# Is America "Really" free? Or is this the illusion we live with?



## alaskan mom (Aug 19, 2004)

Are we truly free in america? We have the most rules and regulations of any country I know. I felt free when I lived in Central america, not here in america. This is no longer the land of the free to me. What are your thoughts? All opionions are welcome :]


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## Stacie (Nov 19, 2001)

America free? lol. We began our servitude when we allowed FDR to install the Federal Reserve and all the alphabet soup agencies which are it's tenticles to slavery.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I don't free here... specially not after 9/11 and Bush's Patriot act








Another problem: how can you really be free if you have to keep watching your back for fear of being sued by someone for stupid reasons? A couple of friends have gone through it, and it is just horrible...
Yet another one: I feel from personal experience that if you have different opinions from the majority, you are usually treated as a fool or a traitor.
Also: How can you throw "suspects" in prison without charging them and without any rights? Is it how a free country should act? (last week in NY, Guatanamo, etc...)


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Its a heck of a lot better than some other places. I'm grateful to be here. If I thought it was bad, or dangerous, or becoming a tyranny, I'd just pack up my bags and leave.

In dh's country, you have to be careful of what you put in letters and email, or say in phone calls. Censorship of anything anti-government is still going strong. We have friends with American relatives in Yemen, and the wife was actually struck by someone acting as a "morality policeman", because she was new to they style of dress, and didn't think to make sure her ankles were covered when she bent over to pick something up.
I'm glad I'm not in Sudan where whole villages are massacred, with at least the implicit approval of the government-no aid, and a refusal for international peacekeepers to come assist in protecting people from the raiders.
I'm glad I'm not under any communist government, and particularly glad I'm not in China where I would not be free to have a large number of children.
I'm glad I'm not in any of the many, many countries where I could be jailed, tortured, or murdered for no other reason than that I'm Christian.

Me, I'm glad to be here.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

We are certainly better off than those in truly repressive regimes, as Cappucinosmom's post makes clear, but I don't think our country is as free as we're told it is.

From the time of Washington's administration, ordinary people have been kept in tight control. There was the Whiskey Rebellion and Shay's rebellion...then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition acts--basically you couldn't publish criticisms of the president. And it goes on from there...anti-war protesters silenced in WWI, Japanese-Americans interred in WWII, the House Un-American Activities Committee, and on and on and on.


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## Amandzia (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
Me, I'm glad to be here.









Me too!

Dh lived all over the world because his dad's an engineer and went wherever the projects were. Dh and his family are from Poland. They tell me about communism, about the crummy goverments around the world and the shabby conditions people live under. They and other immigrants I talk to tell me how happy they are to live in a country where anybody is allowed to get an education and nobody has to join the military and how many people own houses (apparently the number of homeowners in the US has gone up). My mil talks about the icky places she's had to live where women aren't allowed to drive, walk down the street without a male relative and can't show any skin at all. And I never want to get sick or hurt in another country. My bil and sil work out the county hospital and they tell me they never turn anyone away for lack of money. I never knew how lucky I was until I became an adult and learned about the rest of the world. I sort of idealized foreign countries when I was a teenager. I like living in California because people from all over the world come to me. So, I get to meet people, but I don't have to go out of the country. Hmm, interesting how so many people want to live in America. I guess it's a pretty good place for a person to live.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

Before I answer this, I have a question:

Forgive my ignorance, but does anyone know where the oft-used phrase "the land of the free" really came from? (I know it's in the song...)

TIA


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

This is my first activism post since my first month on MDC...









I'm glad to live here. Do I feel free?? Depends on how I think of free. But generally yes.

I think we're at the point where all we do is make up laws to please the individual. I'm starting to wonder how one law that protects me hinders the right of another.

I know that is bound to happen but it seems to be all th time. Hey, if I don't lke it...lets make a law so you HAVE to do it MY way!


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## Amandzia (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skim*
Before I answer this, I have a question:

Forgive my ignorance, but does anyone know where the oft-used phrase "the land of the free" really came from? (I know it's in the song...)

TIA

I suppose it came from the founders who set themselves free of England's king and created their own independent country.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

"land of the free" is a part of the Star Spangled Banner which was taken from the poem of the same name written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key during the War of 1812.

He was taken captive and was being held on a British warship as they bombarded Ft McHenry. When he woke in the morning and saw the tattered American flag still waving over the Ft he penned (er..well he started on it then) the poem which eventualy became the US's national anthem

Original Poem written by Key

Quote:

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

It was actually set to the music of a tavern ballad (heh)

Sorry for history buff's enthusiastic interruption of thread...


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

A lot of the old hymns were set to tavern songs as well (great creative source, I guess)

I feel free but not as free as I should be made to feel (if you know what I mean)

db


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

nak

Hey thanks for the history, abimommy!

To answer the op'squestion-sure I feel free from the English monarchy here in this country.

But I think before I feel free from oppression we have a LONG way to go...


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alaskan mom*
I felt free when I lived in Central america, not here in america.

When you were living in Central America I doubt that you were involved in any kind of political activism. If you had been you might have been "disappeared", tortured or killed for expressing your political views.

Historically here in the U.S. you can usually engage in political dialogue without fearing death or government retaliation. That isn't always strictly true, of course, but it's an ideal and we have generally done better than other contries.

However, recently we are headed back down the slippery slope of repressing political speech by governemnt intimidation. The U.S.A. Patriot Act means that by speaking up you could be labled as a "terrorist". Lately eople have been pre-emptively arrested for engaging in protest or simply being Moslems.

So, if we have laws AND free political speech we can still call ourselves free because we can speek up to change the laws. Once freedom of speech is dead it would be absurd to call America a "free country" any more.

--AmyB


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
I'm glad I'm not under any communist government, and particularly glad I'm not in China where I would not be free to have a large number of children.
I'm glad I'm not in any of the many, many countries where I could be jailed, tortured, or murdered for no other reason than that I'm Christian.

Me, I'm glad to be here.










I totally agree.
We may think we have it bad in some respects- which may be true, not to discount anyone. But- people have fought to give us this land where we can think freely, live as we want(pretty much) have children, vote, etc, etc, etc.
I think that honor is due for all of the lives lost fighting for our freedom- however it may be abused. I mean, we sit here and chat, but people have paid a high price for us to be able to do this.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amandzia*
They and other immigrants I talk to tell me how happy they are to live in a country where anybody is allowed to get an education and nobody has to join the military and how many people own houses (apparently the number of homeowners in the US has gone up). .

this is certainly not true for everyone.Both me and my husband are immigrants ( 2 different countries) and we don't feel particularly free here.Those tourists comming in next year that have to leave fingerprints and MUST present passports with biometric data probably also won't feel very free either. Or those people held in custody for years without charges,legal advice and any rights.


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## alaskan mom (Aug 19, 2004)

I think thay all of you have valid points. And yes we are better off than a lot of country's. Do we settle for just being better off? I don't know.

When I lived in central america, I saw the mass graves. The country that supplied the money and means to kill so many was the USA. They wanted to make sure ordinary people in this country did not fight against a country that we controlled. How dare they fight for freedom.

I don't have the answers, but I do have questions.


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## Tata (Jun 2, 2004)

'Free!' It's a good marketing word. It works better than 'Sale!'. I have to say that I do feel more free than other people do in other countries. My parents came from communist controled Poland in the '60s. Not a pretty place. But, with the patriot act, things are now very different. Our e-mail and mail can be read. All international e-mail is read (stored and analyzed by computer). Our homes can be searched without our consent and knowledge on very little pretense. We can be detained for no reason. Various citizen watch groups are forming to look for suspicious folks. The list goes on and keeps getting longer.

However, let us remember those who suffered and died so we may have this land. The Indigenous people. They were hated and massacred by George Washington's people. In the later 1800s it became government policy to irradicate (genocide) them and / or assimilate them. Ask any decendents who live on reservations if they feel free.

I use this one example to make the point that "we" does not mean every single citizen. There are many levels of class and priviledge in this society. Some people are definately more free than others. Some are totally above the law and are about as free as anyone can get. Others have to worry about getting stopped for 'driving while brown'. It just depends on who you talk to.


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## alaskan mom (Aug 19, 2004)

These are very valid points. I guess the real question is do you feel free now?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi, me, the Aussie again. I married an American, and live in the States now and again for months or years at a time. We have chosen to bring our child up predominantly in Australia because we do feel more free here. I can walk the streets at night. Janet Jackson's boob was shown on regular tv and no one gave a hoot. You don't hear "bleeps" during songs or movies, they don't censor as much. THERE ARE NO GUNS! If you walk barefoot in the mall, it isn't frown upon, in fact, many others choose to leave their shoes on the step.

There are so many subtle reasons why it feels a little less free in the US. Then there are the big reasons, as mentioned in previous posts. However, I will live in America over many many other countries, and i love it in America. I mean, heck, the love of my life is American and my child is half American! I have a tie to the States I could never break and would never want to break. But, in a nutshell, it isn't as free as i would like it to be.


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## whimsy (Aug 6, 2004)

It depends.....

I feel free when I watch the school bus drive by and I have the freedom to keep my children at home.

When I watch the news I wonder how much is really true and how close to the truth it is

Free when I can choose to see one of the best doctors in the country for my daughters seizures.

Not free when I wasn't able to change jobs because I would lose the insurance that paid for us to see that doctor.

But, all in all pretty darn free!


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## Dov (Nov 21, 2001)

Define "free." What's "free" to me isn't "free" to the neokooks who run the place (at everyone else's expense). I can't do it. I don't think America being free is an illusion it's a largely shared delusion fomented by those who control her. But that's me and I am already well-versed in how "sick" and "unpatriotic" I am....bwaaahahaha









Speaking of "sick"....I'm sick of feeling "grateful" for: my "freedom" to not have health insurance (can't afford any but earn too much to qualify for "handouts"..oops, forgot it's all cuz I'm "l-a-z-y" an' a "communist"); the "freedom" to speak my mind and have the "privilege" to be physically attacked, verbally harassed, and my safety threatened (but that only happens in "other" countries... doh! I missed _that_ memo); the "freedom" to practice my religion as long as I make the proper applications for "special treatment" and keep/respect the holidays of a certain other religion that isn't mine (oh, that's right, freedom of religion means only "one" religion gets to be free... ooh and at my expense too...); the "freedom" to raise my kids in a soldier-cult where "honor" and "civic duty" are limited to unquestioning hommage and "voluntary" participation in the national military (but at least I don't have to serve, just my kids... perhaps someday whether they want to or not); just to name a few things for which I'm feeling daily more grateful.









I'm a north american (or whatever the indigenous name was or might have been...) .... I think big, I want big, I love big, I am willing to throw out everything that is to make something that could be, I wanna be part of it all. The air, the land, the water, moves my soul like no other places on earth, though many others move me. IMO it's the nationalism that gets in the way of what I'd call being "free." This 18th century, national-cult stuff is nonsense and is killing human beings here and abroad (oops I forgot culture can't kill). So what's "free" anyway? I'd like to be free of nationality... and nationalist cults like the 'Merikaaner one that's sweeping the middle of the continent. I'd love to not have to deal with the delusionalists who rant and rave and wave their flags (although I admit it's fun to do that at international soccer matches) and not have to deal with teh delusionalists who think they're all better than every other nation-state and that their way is the pinnacle of human societal evolution. If I didn't have to put up with them, maybe I'd feel "free"... but what is free to me...









Back to digging the bean patch on the porch... the one that my "freedom" permitted me to buy (didn't matter what I _wanted_ to buy, I had the "freedom" to chose to buy what "they" allowed me to buy... such a "free" country indeed). Bwaahahaha....hah


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## steph (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyB*
... Historically here in the U.S. you can usually engage in political dialogue without fearing death or government retaliation. That isn't always strictly true, of course, but it's an ideal and we have generally done better than other contries.
--AmyB

Unless you're Leonard Peltier, Mumia Abu Jamal, Judi Barry, or a host of others with less prominant cases. Sorry, Amy, just feeling pissy tonight....


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## sarenka (Mar 29, 2002)

Well I write appeals for Amnesty International, to repressive regimes where prisoners of conscience are kept, where unfair trials are rife, where mistreatment and torture are commonplace and prisoners are executed, often as a result of dubious evidence, often when they are not even in a mental state to understand what is happening.

So far this year, Sudan, Syria, and several to the USA.

Freedom for some. Better not be poor, black, male, with inadequate parenting and mental health problems.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarenka*

Freedom for some. Better not be poor, black, male, with inadequate parenting and mental health problems.

I was thinking along these lines exactly. Sure, we have it loads better than many countries. I have the freedom to come here and say that I can't stand our president. I have the freedom to live without religion to a great extent (though it might be forced on my kids if I send them to school in some people's ideal world).

At the same time, you're only as free in the country as the majority wants you to believe. We believed we were the land of the free when slaves were common place. We believed we were free when women had no right to vote. We believe we're free when a couple can't be awarded civil rights because they happen to be the same gender.


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## StillmeadowWomyn (Oct 8, 2004)

What freedoms are you missing that you used to have in Central America, that you don't have here?


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## StillmeadowWomyn (Oct 8, 2004)

I've seen this phrase often used too, Skim. "The land of the free and the home of the brave". I don't know if it originated back to the founding of our country but many people came here for religious freedom and to break away from the worship restrictions of England. The Mennonites came here to worship freely.... the Catholics.... lots of different denominations.... because they were being so persecuted in their homeland. That's just an idea about the origination of "the land of the free".


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

I think America has a very powerful mythology of their own freedom. I don't think it is more free than the "old" European countries myself. I once met a woman who said that she felt more free to voice dissenting opionions in Yugoslavia (under Communist rule) than she did in Chicago. I don't know what her rationale was for that. But I think there is a pervading moral force of conformity. Is that freedom?

Funnily enough. given people are talking about the founders, I was just reading this article on Bush (sorry!) Here's the rest
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1320762,00.html

and here's an extract:

When Americans tell their own history at the grade-school, storybook level, they conveniently forget the earliest and most successful colony of tobacco-aristocrats in Virginia (a bunch of degenerate smokers) and instead trace themselves back to the zealous theocrats in tall black hats who founded the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and whose first harvest is celebrated in the all-American orgy of Thanksgiving. The names of the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery, which put into the James River in 1607, have little resonance now, but everyone knows about the 1620 voyage of the Mayflower and its Pilgrim Fathers because the Puritans, who have never gone out of date, left behind a peculiarly American philosophy of the miraculous power of faith and hard labour, along with a dangerously uplifting vision of America's rightful place in the world.... While the Virginia colony brought 18th-century rationalism to America, and supplied four of its first five presidents (Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe), the New England puritans of Massachusetts gave Americans an intensely dramatic and emotional sense of their peculiar predicament.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

calpurnia, that article is right on.

myth: traditional story used to explain some phenomenon, custom, etc. (from my Webster's, 1983).

I do see faith as part of this myth, too, as the article's author argues. And also as the tool by which Americans achieve and feel "freedom". Since freedom is a myth for so many here in the US, and yet such a part of our ideological origins as a country and empire, it is important to connect it directly to the idea and practices of our country's government.

Truly, there are degrees of freedom, as there are degrees of privilege, as expressed in other posts in this thread. I am not grateful for the "pervading moral force of conformity" either.

Moral is far more than a system of personal or cultural values. It includes the unfree actions of our government.

And no, we are not even free to say what we want without being watched. Our emails are not private. Our web posts are not private. In particular, our overseas emails have been watched and analyzed, by computer and by people, for years. To catch/prevent "terrorists", you know. This is not freedom. It is the pervasive myth of freedom.

Thank you so much, calpurnia, for your post.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I think all of the Western countries, such as the UK, Australia, USA, Canada, parts of Europe, all have the same sort of freedoms. Some are more free in certain areas, eg, parts of Europe where nakedness is embraced, Australia where censorship is minimal, etc. But generally, almost as free as they can be and still be safe. Free enough that residents and citizens of those countries feel free and happy to live a life they choose. In muslim countries, eg, Saudi Arabia, the women must veil; the same women come to western countries and still veil, but the difference is they have a choice. BUT, they can't go naked, and in some countries that is fine (to be naked or semi-clothed), so that is still a lack of a freedom of choice there, but one we are happy to conform to.

Freedom lay in the people - what they consider acceptable. If I walk naked through the mall, I may get away with it LEGALLY in some places, but I would not escape the judgement of everyday people. It is everyday people who take some freedoms from us just by judgement alone.

We as a "people", world over, can change the state of our freedoms in many areas, but we don't. Even on these forums, where people are more easy going and natural than the majority, will still say things like "but society doesn't accept that, and one must fit society". If I started having sex in front of you, what would you think? Yet, in other places, sex is celebrated and even watched and revered as a sacred and beautiful (not 'disgusting' and 'private') act. So, some things are so ingrained in us, and titled "disgusting" that there need not even be rules, society - in all its strict glory - polices for us.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

hey skim, that's alrighty


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

We can never be free in this world. Freedom is always relative and comparisons are in the final analysis , phoney.

Freedom to have sex in front of people, in public!!! Well, they were doing that in the final decadent times of the Roman Empire. You might think that is free. I certainly don't.

Someone unabashedly having sex in front of a crowd might sound like they march to the beat of their own drum, but they might very well be ensnared in lust, or acting out their narcisistic delusions of grandeur.

I am no prude either when it comes to nakedness. I think it would be great if we could walk around naked like some of the jains and holy men in India do! But they are (usually) doing so for ascetic spiritual reasons ie. naked b4
God, no material possessions or bonds etc.

For the rest of us mere mortals I think it is better to have some standards. We do need rules and discipline....they lead to freedom, not away from it . The "rules" of poetry lead to greater licence and imaginative expression

ie. this haiku poem: A raging sea
Above Sado Island lies
The milky way

Basho

When balanced with awareness and understanding, restraint is very useful and skilful. With it we may cultivate virtues like generosity, patience, and thriftiness.

These lead to the highest freedoms, like peace and contentment.

Licentiousness and promiscuity, "letting it all hang out" are superficial freedoms, which can only lead to misery and ignorance in the end, imv.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

When balanced with awareness and understanding, restraint is very useful and skilful.
_Self_-restraint is very useful and skillful. _Other_ imposed restraint is loss of freedom.

Quote:

We do need rules and discipline....they lead to freedom, not away from it .
Again, _self_-discipline is the greatest of all the disciplines, and one as a Buddhist I practise before all others. The ultimate freedom is freedom from illusion and ignorance - something that no authority, nor rule can intill.

Quote:

Licentiousness and promiscuity, "letting it all hang out" are superficial freedoms, which can only lead to misery and ignorance in the end, imv.
*Attachment* to such leads to misery and ignorance. Freedom does not lead to ignorance.

Just because I _could_ have sex in a crowd, doesn't mean I would. However the freedom to make my own choices - define my own right and wrong - and then choose compassion in my speech and deed _from_ those choices *without need for law* - now THAT is virtue.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

I certainly agree Calm that true virtue goes beyond the law. Laws can be both good and bad. It is probably best not to have too many of them. As Tacitus once said, "The more corrupt the Republic, the more numerous the laws". The USA seems to have a lot of laws and regulations these days, doesn't it?

I of course was referring to self-restraint when I mentioned restraint.

But there will never be perfect freedom in this world, as I said before. No-one can live forever, there will always be sickness, old age, death, disappointments, grief....to think otherwise is illusion.

And societies will always exist, and will impose their restrictions, their at times arbitrary values.
Just look at western societies, of which the US is a prime example. Women have the right to dress how they please would be the common view. But do they? A young "babe" wearing a dress that was becoming but relatively unrevealing would be regarded as anchronistic and uncool. Because society is so permissive, because her own internal superego would not allow it due to the huge pressures to conform, to be "popular" , to fit in with the crowd, it is a very rare event these days, except amongst the Amish.

Western societies (Wastn' Societies) have lost their "vertical gaze" as Robert Bly puts it. Respect for the traditions, for the ageless wisdom of spiritual masters, for the wisdom of those who are older has meant many start to look sideways for their guidelines, their "precepts" and values. An adolescent is much more likely to take seriously the thoughts and approvals of his or her peers, than his or her parents or grandparents, and thus we have the prevalence of conformity, the tyranny "popularity", the growing juvenility of dress codes for young adults, the lack of original thought, the coarsening of manners etc.

If ever you want to read an excellent book on this subject, check out Robert Bly's "The Sibling Society".


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