# getting walked all over. they completely ignore me.



## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

I"m so frustrated. I have always tried to set reasonable limits, save the "no" for when it's really necessary, give them explanations when it's appropriate. And it's always been important to me to mean what I say and not meaninglessly throw out punishments and threats. But it really seems to have backfired because my kids pay zero attention to what I say, and push the limits at every single opportunity. I hate walking around and being a mean mom all the time.

Examples from today: 4 yo accidentally spills snack all over the ground. That's fine. Then he thinks it's funny so purposely dumps it again and again. That's not ok because I don't want to needlessly waste food, money, or litter the playground, and we don't have any other snacks with us. I ask him nicely to please pick them up, and offer to help. He gleefully ignores me and runs away. Because I"ve asked him to pick them up, I can't just ignore it, so that leaves me to chase after him all around the playground while he runs away from me, and it's hard for me to catch him because I have a sleeping baby on my chest. He refuses to come with me so I have to pull him. I hate depending on physical force to get them to comply - I know that's not the answer but he simply won't do it. I pull him over and he refuses to clean up the snacks, even with me helping. I can't physically do it b/c of baby sleeping on me. He completely refuses, so my only recourse is to leave the park immediately. Meanwhile, he's happy as can be, doesn't mind a bit, has gotten nothing out of it and I look like an ineffective idiot.

Earlier, same child grabs another kid's kite and runs away with it, the other kid is crying. I once again kindly try to have my son give it back, and give an explanation for how we take turns, ask permission to use people's things, etc. He happily runs away, doesn't give it back, ignores my explanation, keeps playing. My only choice is to wrestle it away from him and give it back. I feel horrible because I don't feel right overpowering him, but he won't do it on his own. He then hits the other child, runs away, I'm again looking like an idiot b/c I can't catch him, and he ignores all of my pleas and threats to come back and make amends to the other child. So now the other boy is crying and I've done nothing to address my kid's behavior. Again, my only recourse is to leave, but that doesn't help the other child, or teach him anything about respecting other people's things or hitting.

Pretty much every day, they completely ignore me when it comes time to get dressed, leave the house, sit down for meals, go to bed, clean up after themselves. I try to say things once and then make them do it, but how do I MAKE them do anything? They simply won't, and I can't physically force them to do everything, I don't feel it's right, and I am caring for a baby so most of the time I'm nursing her or my hands are full.

I have tried natural consequences, such as if they won't get dressed they wear their pajamas out. They love it, it doesn't bother them one bit. If they won't sit down to eat and I put their food away, and they go hungry, their behavior is miserable and it is actually a punishment on me. if they complain about snacks so I don't bring any with us next time, same thing. If I forget the bedtime routine because they won't settle down, it again is a punishment for me b/c that means they stay up till all hours and I get no alone time at all. If they wont get ready to leave despite my cajoling, laying out their clothes and toothbrushes and offering to help, I get myself and the baby ready, and go out to the car, and then they act surprised and scream and cry that I'm leaving them, we are late to where we're going- sometimes that's ok, but other times it's not, like a doctor's appt we need to get to on time.

I feel like they don't respect my word one bit. Like I've been too nice and they walk all over me. But now I find I am parenting by constantly threatening taking away of privileges and fun things to do and leaving wherever we are, b/c I feel like I have no other options. I hate to use those as my main tools because I don't think it gets at the root of the behavior.

What am I doing wrong??? Or do these sound like normal kids. I feel like I've completely messed up somewhere along the way, or my kids just simply do not respond to gentle measures.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I won't be able to write (no time right now) until later tonight, but I did want to chime in and say that your situation is very understandable and totally solvable, and without resorting to force. But I would need more time to put my words together intelligently.

But I just wanted to say "take heart! your kids are normal, you're normal and trying real hard, and there IS a solution" . And you're not alone. More later....


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

thank you, NellieKatz, you have been very helpful when I've asked questions in the past, so I appreciate it! I'm glad to know this isn't too far outside the realm of normal!


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## ps4624 (Apr 16, 2009)

Waiting for NellieKatz's return...


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

nak

I feel the same way lately, with my 3yo. We have those types of situations often. So at least I can tell you that you are not alone. Looking forward to others responses...


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

I too am awaiting NellieKatz return.
:subbing:


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

OMG you guys...waiting for my return? The pressure! I am still working on paintings and trying to meet a deadline. Let me see if I can think about this while I work. 

Actually I think I am going to print your message out so I can look at it later and pull out the points and answer them. My mind is mush when I am on this stupid laptop. I like to write my ideas down as I think .

But an early tidbit of advice would be: pull back a bit from the demands and commands, if only so you can save face & regroup for a bit.  And also, you are looking for respect and if there is one thing I have learned the hard way (and I've heard it elsewhere too) it's that the more you talk, the less people respect you. (which should slow me down somewhat on these message boards, come to think of it....but as you can see it doesn't!!)

But really. Less words/threats/instructions/warnings for now. Let your actions speak. It will feel a thousand times better too...if you are anything like me you get SO sick of hearing yourself!

Seriously though I can't respond in depth to the stuff in your post until later. But I SO can identify with what you are going through!!


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## Nillarilla (Nov 20, 2007)

Sounds a lot like my 4yo. How old are your other children?


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## MilkyMuse (Feb 8, 2009)

It can be so frustrating when you feel you are doing your best and your children *still* won't cooperate with you! I have had periods with my children where I felt the same way you do: that nothing works and I'm constantly threatening to take things away and do nothing fun. It's not a good feeling and I really sympathize!

Now that my oldest is older (7 years and very high-need) we've been through the good-bad-good cycle a few times together, and there are a few things I've observed. One is that my children (DS1, 7 yrs, DS2, 2 yrs) tend to behave undesirably when I am very busy, whether it's a project I've involved myself with or am just taking too long checking my email. I wonder if your 4yo has (unintentionally) found that mischief gets mommy's undivided attention -- my kids do this sometimes too when I am concentrating on something else, especially if I've been busy with that something else a lot lately. Maybe using a sling or other type of baby carrier would make it easier to keep your baby close and even nurse while engaging with your older children, lessening the opportunity and need to get your attention.

Another thing I've noticed is that my boys become "mother deaf" when I fall into a habit of barking orders at them. I have learned to stop and ask myself whether I *need* them to do something, or do I feel like I should? Depending on the situation, I remind myself to take a deep breath and watch to see if DS does what I'm itching to tell him to do -- it's usually something like cleaning up a spill or closing the door all the way. Often, when I give him a chance to do it without being nagged, he does it on his own. Unfortunately we also have those days when it seems like everything my kids do is on purpose to make the biggest possible mess in the shortest amount of time, like the day recently when DS1 made himself an extremely messy peanut butter & jelly sandwich, getting jelly all over the counter and himself. He was not very cooperative in dealing with the mess and I'm sure, in retrospect, that my angry reaction only made the situation worse. My son could probably have cleaned up all that jelly with no extra commentary on my part, but all I could think about was how hard it would be to get out of the carpet! We all mess up sometimes, and we have to be willing to forgive ourselves and recognize the fact that we will have another chance to respond more positively the next time. So, the thing that I have learned to effectively deal with "mother deafness" is to first stop and ask myself if I really need to be demanding that my child do whatever it is that seems so urgent in the moment. The answer is often no; when it's yes, such as when something can get broken or someone can get hurt, I physically stop the activity if necessary (banging on the window with a stick, hitting another child), put my hands on my child's shoulders and make eye contact, say his name, and tell him he *may not* continue doing whatever it is, and that if he does, the consequence will be...whatever (I will take the stick away because I don't want the window broken; we will leave the park because hitting is not acceptable). I ask if he understands and if not I clarify. Sometimes, it turns out that the hitting was due to another child calling names or taking something from him, and then I encourage him to talk to the other child instead of hitting. Often, it seems that destructive (or potentially destructive) activities happen when I am busy, and that fighting with other kids tends to happen when they have been playing together for awhile and are tired, hungry, in need of a change of scenery, etc.

I have found that my 2yo ignores me entirely when I don't connect with him. It makes a huge difference to get on his level, make eye contact, speak calmly, clearly, and simply, and above all, not be dramatic no matter how upset I am. If I allow myself to get emotional and yell, he thinks I am playing and laughs and runs away. If I calmly say, "Please put the apple slices back in the bowl" and hold out the bowl, watching him and doing *nothing* else, he usually says, "Okay!" and does it. I believe that it makes all the difference in the world for him to hear my request and see me right there next to him, ready to help if needed and also expecting that he'll do what I asked.

It really helps to consciously connect with my children when they are already behaving well. It's the last thing you want to do when you are irritated with their behavior sometimes! But it can make a big difference. Spending some time, even just a few minutes, making eye contact and smiling while we do something enjoyable together can really help me feel more positively about them. Then, if I *have* to do something, it helps to say, "I have to do this really important thing. It will take me 10 minutes. I am going to set the timer, and when it goes off we will read a book (make muffins, play trucks, build a castle...)." Then I have to really stick with it, and be done when the timer goes off; however it seems to help when it's a finite amount of time that I'll be busy, and they know we'll do something fun when I'm done.

This is totally off the wall, too, but I thought I'd mention it...my kids always act out more when they are in the process of coming down with a cold or something! We have sometimes had a very bad couple days, and then someone wakes up coughing and sniffling, or throwing up. I've heard this from other mothers too! I've also heard others say that kids feel sort of rough when they're working on learning a new skill or dealing with a new situation, and that's been my experience too.

Good luck! Your kids are lucky to have a mom who cares so much about their feelings. Hang in there!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

OK I can say one more thing that popped out at me as I re-read your post, and that is that you can only control what YOU do. What YOU are going to do. You cannot MAKE someone else do something....you can force them of course, but understandably this is NOT a desirable option for you (or anyone). Who wants that kind of relationship? You want them to grow up to want to do these things on their own, not because someone stood over them and forced them.

I think that realizing this was revolutionary for me.

My child is an individual. He is a separate human being with his own interests, feelings and perceptions. He is not an extension of me. He is not here to serve me. His wants are not my wants. And not all my wants are mandatory. And I only "pull rank" when I need to. This sort of realization made a big difference.

And it's hard, because unless you are homeschooling like we are, there are a lot of "have to's" that you seem to find yourself up against on a daily basis and they are oftentimes quite arbitrary, or at the very least they are imposed on you based on someone else's wants and schedule (I am thinking in particular of the school system and the daily school schedule, since that's the big one. The school sets the agenda and forces the kids to do XYZ and the parent is forced to force the kid to do XYZ, whether or not any of it makes any sense. So the system is full of coercion.) So if I decide that I am not going to pull rank ("because I'm the Mom and I said so, that's why!") and I let some things go because I value the relationship more than the arbitrary have-to's that I put on him, then it's OK because we are not bound to a schedule. (My son does stay in his PJs all day if he wants. I only ask him to get dressed if (a) we are going out or (b) the weather will destroy his PJs if he goes out to play in them. It's pretty cute to see him running around the back yard talking to imaginary friends, waving a nerf gun around, with his PJs and a raincoat on. Yes, I let him play in the rain too. Again, why not?)

Anyway, I was just trying to say I am lucky in that I can let things go if I don't deem them important, and let him work them out on his own.

I am digressing....Where did I begin this? OK, I was saying that you only can control what YOU do. So, if you want cooperation from your kids, rather than badger them about stuff on a regular basis, why not only ask for help if you really NEED help? The rest of the time, generously do it yourself. And say No to them once in a while too if you need to. You're a human being too...not an automaton with unlimited energy and resources and patience.

I firmly believe that if kids are treated kindly and respectfully, they will return the favor. No offense, but badgering, threatening and grabbing don't probably feel respectful to your kids. They don't know the kind of crazy pressures we moms are under. To them it just looks like we're insane when we do that!

And if cooperation is one of your family's core values, explain to your kids that this is the case. They probably really want to please you. And that bit where they run away, OMG that happened to me and I will never forget that day in the grocery store!! Chasing him was my first mistake, seriously. He ran, he laughed at me. It was mortifying to me, but to him it was more of a game. That was before our relationship was improved, to say the least. I don't chase any more. 

I have SO much I want to say, but I may say it in a separate post and I am already up way too late. I have to go to bed. But you have raised so many different issues in your post that I just want to write and write and write!

I'll be back....


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

OK that response of mine was so all over the map, I apologize. You have raised many points and they each deserve so much attention. I look forward to giving each one more attention tomorrow, hopefully.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

ok; it's the morning now and my son is still in bed, so I will tackle one issue from your post. .

Here is your comment:
"Examples from today: 4 yo accidentally spills snack all over the ground. That's fine. Then he thinks it's funny so purposely dumps it again and again. That's not ok because I don't want to needlessly waste food, money, or litter the playground, and we don't have any other snacks with us. I ask him nicely to please pick them up, and offer to help. He gleefully ignores me and runs away."
Here is my idea:
You could just pick them up and silently put them away. End of story. If you wanted (since this is new to him) you could say "the snacks are for eating" as you scoop them up.

I think what might have tripped you up here is that you had a scenario of obedience and regret that you wanted to see him act out, AND you also saw it as your job to make those reactions happen. And since that sort of thing is impossible (controlling someone else's feelings and reactions) you decided to enforce it and, as they say, "let the games begin!"


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Here is another one I want to make a suggestion on:

Your comment:
"Earlier, same child grabs another kid's kite and runs away with it, the other kid is crying. I once again kindly try to have my son give it back, and give an explanation for how we take turns, ask permission to use people's things, etc. He happily runs away, doesn't give it back, ignores my explanation, keeps playing. My only choice is to wrestle it away from him and give it back. "

My reaction:
No, that's not your only choice. I cannot emphasize this enough. (and I realize that a whole new way of looking at your child might be needed here; this is NOT easy, I know) I might have done the same thing, too, once....but nowadays I take a different approach. It all involves teaching your child and TRUSTING him that he will learn. He will. Maybe not in one day, but he will learn. And that, I presume, is the goal, more than force-induced compliance.

In the kite scenario, since force is not the right thing to do, and you know that he loves the thrill of "the chase" so that is also ineffective, you could try just waiting till he returns with the kite. In the meantime, turn to the crying child and kindly say that you are sorry that your son did that; he is still learning how to share. [your son will likely see you acting with kindness toward the child; I will call him Johnny] I am guessing that if you aren't involved in the "I make a command and you run away giggling game," your son will return with the kite sooner than later, and his defenses will NOT be up. When he comes back with the kite, if you want to get the kite from him before he puts it down, you can say "You made Johnny pretty sad; look at how he cried when you took the kite. It is better to ask for the kite. Let's rewind this like a DVD. May I have the kite please? [when son gives it to you, you hand it to Johnny] OK now, can you say "Johnny, can I play with the kite?" Your child is not threatened in this scenario. His dignity is still intact AND you are giving him a chance to "do it over" and correctly, no less! A way to make Mama happy! And since Mama is not a growling chasing bear at the moment, your son can see a way to do this without the win-lose dynamic.

Later, when things are calm, like when you two are home enjoying a happy moment or tucking him into bed, you can revisit the issue and say "I was glad when you hit the rewind button today and asked Johnny nicely for his kite. Next time, maybe you can do that the first time. Do you think you can share better next time? (Yes, Mama). Good. Then, In the car on the way to the next playdate with Johnny, you say "Now remember how we discussed that you are going to ask before taking Johnny's toy from him? Let's practice so this will be a great play date and you will be a great friend! Show me how you ask for the kite. "Johnny, can I have the kite?" Good! That's terrific. You will need to use this new way of asking, or else we won't be able to come to play dates with Johnny for a while. Can you do that? "Yes, mama"

And then if he doesn't do it, and if he instead grabs and makes Johnny cry again, you wait until you are IN THE CAR going home (i.e. calm, no chasing required). "I noticed that you grabbed toys from Johnny again. This made Johnny upset, and I need for our playdates to be friendly, safe places for all the kids. So we won't be going to Johnny's house again until I can see you asking first, not grabbing,.

end of story

Yes, that is HUGE amounts of work. And that is why I am exhausted most of the time. LOL. But my relationship with my son has never been better since I started with this. Also, he goes to a democratic free school (basically a bunch of homeschooling kids that learn together) and it REALLY REALLY helps that respect is not only taught, but LIVED in that school. No one is more important than the others, and the children get equal votes with the adults. So when he is being treated as an intelligent good person at home, and as an intelligent good person at school, they reinforce each other, and he rises to the occasion.

Your son will not change right away, but over time he will improve; I am sure of it. He is a person just like you who enjoys being respected, and who enjoys happiness. So how could he not come around?


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

this is an interesting thread as we are having some similar experiences lately with our five year old, due in large part I'm sure to our reactions to her. I find it so, so hard to let go of my internal tape loop that wants obedience! now! and to move into a less confrontational space. She is a bright, intense kid who is doing her best to express her needs, get her needs met and co-exist in her family in her own way, but it seems like lately it so often clashes with what we want, and I so often find myself falling into using shaming phrases like "you're 5, you're old enough to understand/behave etc."

I also now that I am not getting nearly enough rest and personal time to be able to be as zen as I need be to not engage with her. I can try really hard to be positive and notice good things and five minutes later she screams in my ear and off I go again....

Sorry! Not trying to hijack this thread, more just to commiserate and to let you know that I am reading the advice here with interest.

In the scenario you describe Nellie, where the mom quietly puts away the snack, I know that I would be seething underneath, thinking to myself 'she needs to learn to help, to take responsibility etc." sigh. I know this is not productive!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow. He is sleeping late today so I have time to answer more things....here is another one:

Your comment: _"Pretty much every day, they completely ignore me when it comes time to get dressed, leave the house, sit down for meals, go to bed, clean up after themselves. I try to say things once and then make them do it, but how do I MAKE them do anything? They simply won't, and I can't physically force them to do everything, I don't feel it's right, and I am caring for a baby so most of the time I'm nursing her or my hands are full."_

When there are things that are non-negotiable, like teeth brushing, I would put them in an order-of-events where one thing is contingent upon another. For example, his daily routine was he likes to watch a tape or DVD in the morning. He LOVES that. It is very important to him. So there was a rule....1st he gets dressed, then he brushes teeth, THEN he can watch a tape. Now that he is older (7) and I can trust him and reason with him, I tell him flat out that the reason I used to set out that order of events before is so that these things would be sure to get done. But that if I can trust him to get dressed and brush teeth sometime in the a.m., then I really DON'T care what order he does them in. And so now he does them in whatever order he wants, and keeps his word and does teeth and dressing (if we are going out, that is) afterward.

I keep my eye on the long term goals (healthy teeth, trustworthiness, learning to handle his responsibilities, etc), so that rigidity and order-following are NOT my emphasis. In fact I do not WANT a child who follows orders all day long from mama and/or school. He will arrive at adulthood not knowing how to make decisions and live with their consequences. So in any area where I see an opportunity to build his skill and preserve our relationship in the process, i'm going to DO it! 

Oh! And one other face-saving thing. Don't say No so much...switch to Maybe. Seriously. That buys you some time to think about whether you really NEED to say No, which often sets up an oppositional win-lose dynamic. Maybe you don't need to say No after all, but if you have already said it, you do NOT (understandably) want to go back on your No, so then you needlessly dig in. So saying Maybe first and then thinking about it helps with that.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

But *proudmamanow*, she DOES need to learn responsibility and to learn to help. I am with you on that. Absolutely!! But I am just suggesting a different way to get there. And I say this with all earnestness and heartfelt feeling ....there IS another way to get there. The seething tells you that something is wrong. And it might not be her. It might be that the way we were brought up...all the forcing, threatening, coercing, punishing....it may teach outward compliance but I can tell you from experience that the resentment will build up powerfully inside the child.

What will they do when you aren't there to see what they do? What will their inner dialog be? "Ha ha, now I don't have to pick up anything because Mom's not here to bug me about it." or "I feel good inside when I do my very best. My friend (or teacher, or Sunday School teacher, or Grandma) would pick this mess up; so I can, too!"

I was parented rigidly, with criticism, punishments, spanking, the whole bit. My hypocritical parents preached one thing and lived another. (for example, we do that when we preach kindness, patience and generosity but don't show it toward our kids). Well, long story short, I left home at 16 just after graduating high school and had a crappy relationship with both parents until they died. And I promptly rebelled and did every single thing they told me not to do. You name it, I did it.

I want my kid to live his life from a place of happiness and emotional safety, not grudging angry compliance. But don't think that I don't agree with you that the goals of teaching responsibility, cleaning up messes, etc. are not also my goals.

There's so much more to what we all do on the surface. Underneath are our powerful emotions motivating us....it's valuable to explore them. Both ours AND our children's.

(can you tell I think about this stuff 24/7 ?)


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## activemomma (Jul 23, 2009)

I'd like to chime in here in my small way. I've been dealing with some similar issues and I've noticed that one of my triggers (for getting angry, for feeling resented, etc) is when other parents are around. When I announce that it's time to leave the part, for example, and then I'm ignored, I start to feel really angry when there are eyes on me. Looking like an idiot whose kids don't listen is hard for me. In those moments, I try to pay extra attention to how I'm feeling and sometimes I try to do the opposite of how I feel. A lot of this comes from pride: if my children are "obedient", if they "behave," somehow this is a reflection on me. This pride is totally unfair to the kids. Also, ultimatums & commands end up setting ME up for a fall in those situations, so I try to avoid them. I hope that helps a little.


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Yes--Nelliekatz, you're right, it really realy helps me to keep my eyes focused on the long term...I don't know, I found it easier to do this when dd was an only and I was home with her, now that I work and she has a two year old sister, I find myself so much more reactive. But obviously this MY issue more than hers, and one I need to work on.

Good food for thought!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

*activemomma,* truer words were never spoken! (the "all eyes on you" feeling). Everything tends to go out the window in those moments, doesn't it?


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Thanks so much for all your thoughtful responses! NellieKatz, thanks for taking the time to write your ideas! I really appreciate that people can have a dialog here, and recognize that we are all trying to do our best with our kids but facing some real challenges!

I pretty much agree with you on all points...just getting there is the hard part. I really don't say no a lot or make them clean up tons- I just think they should participate in cleaning the especially gratuitous, messy messes!

Re: baby carriers, yes, my baby is usually in the moby wrap so I do have some mobility, but even so, I cannot climb under a picnic table to clean up his snack, or chase a fast running 4 yo with her sleeping in it!

A lot of my problem is that it's hard to do all this when I have two active boys to keep track of in public spaces, and a baby who needs nursing, or for me to bounce her to sleep, or is crying. It's hard to have a big dialog with my kids and/or help facilitate interactions with them and other kids while doing this. I think that's why a lot of times I do need (want?) compliance right away because my mind is on 3 kids at once and usually calming and feeding the baby takes precedence so I'm not able to spend the needed time on having a conversation about why such and such needs to be done, or wait the extra time for them to come around and do it on their own initiative.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *activemomma* 
I'd like to chime in here in my small way. I've been dealing with some similar issues and I've noticed that one of my triggers (for getting angry, for feeling resented, etc) is when other parents are around. When I announce that it's time to leave the part, for example, and then I'm ignored, I start to feel really angry when there are eyes on me. Looking like an idiot whose kids don't listen is hard for me.

YES, exactly!! this is usually all playing out in front of a group of other parents, so it does make me a lot angrier to look ineffective. LIke, look at her kid run away, what's she going to do about it?" That's why my go-to tactic is normally to leave- it's the one thing I can do to end it- but I see that's an easy way out and isn't teaching them much!

I completely agree about their behavior being worse when we don't connect- I actually just finished Connection Parenting and have been trying to keep that in mind. And you're right- it doesn't take hours, just a few minutes of really getting into what they're interested in and having a conversation really helps. I usually have so much going on and am crazily trying to get stuff done, that it's easy to put them off, and I realize their behavior is a way to get my attention!

you're right about the colds- they actually did all have colds this week!


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

This is such a great thread - I really needed this this week. Thank you.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Awaken* 

A lot of my problem is that it's hard to do all this when I have two active boys to keep track of in public spaces, and a baby who needs nursing, or for me to bounce her to sleep, or is crying. It's hard to have a big dialog with my kids and/or help facilitate interactions with them and other kids while doing this. I think that's why a lot of times I do need (want?) compliance right away *because my mind is on 3 kids at once* and usually calming and feeding the baby takes precedence so I'm not able to spend the needed time on having a conversation about why such and such needs to be done, or wait the extra time for them to come around and do it on their own initiative.


Parenting gently becomes infinitely harder with more than one kid. I used to have a ton of patience, never threatened, never "reacted", but three kids going in three different directions, not to mention hourly conflicts, reduces the best parenting technique to smithereens. No advice for you OP but I hear you!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I hadn't thought of the number of kids! OMG yes, that makes a big difference. I only have the one child, not several running in different directions. I have thought about this in the past....how do moms of many DO it? I often think that those kids must HAVE to be super "well behaved" because seriously, the mom can't chase all of them.

My hat is off to anyone with more than one little child. Now that mine is 7 I don't have to worry about the running-off thing so much, but for a while it was a huge problem .


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
Parenting gently becomes infinitely harder with more than one kid. I used to have a ton of patience, never threatened, never "reacted", but three kids going in three different directions, not to mention hourly conflicts, reduces the best parenting technique to smithereens. No advice for you OP but I hear you!

Word to the -ORD on this, at least for me. I was super awesome gentle mama with DS when it was just him - he was a very easygoing (if not super energetic) toddler. Introducing a second, very differently tempered (read: intense and OPINIONATED) child into the mix made things infinitely more difficult (and made/makes me feel like a gentle discipline fraud sometimes). I am on the more "strict"/parental authority (not authoritarian but authoritative) end of the GD spectrum and always have been; even so, in in the past year I have used more logical consequences and less discussions and reasoning, because the discussions are fruitless and reduce all of us to tears. They are bright, very persistent children and I am often emotionally exhausted from negotiating nearly every situation and interaction. I sometimes feel like I shot myself in the foot by always explaining things and giving them reasons behind things, because now they refuse to do a lot of things unless there is a detailed, lengthy explanation....and then they still won't do it if they happen to disagree with my reasoning.







. I have to jsut keep my eye on the prize and remind myself I want critically thinking, understandign kids to grow into critically thinking adults and not obedient kids that grow up into unquestioning adults. I should print that out and post it somewhere.


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## lyra1977 (Oct 25, 2009)

I just want to chime in with what works for me to get my DD's attention when I'm talking to her. DD is only 19 months but started with the selective listening at about 17 months and what works for me (with a toddler at least) is to do one of the following (not all at once):
*I use my "teacher voice" (I was a high school teacher pre-baby) which is lower pitched than my normal speaking voice. If you haven't been a teacher, try to find a teacher in your social circle who will teach you this voice. It is extremely useful. You might be able to learn it by remembering what your teachers used to sound like in school, but it usually takes practice to be able to use it yourself with kids. The key ingredients are low pitch, serious tone and confident delivery. It doesn't have to be loud, although it often is in a room full of students.
*I whisper to DD so she has to stop what she's doing and look at me to understand what I'm saying
*I change my tone to be very calm and casual, almost as if I'm not saying anything important at all but talking to another adult in a casual conversation.

I hope those ideas help! It's so frustrating to feel ignored as a Mama.







s


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I think 3 kids is a A LOT to handle at a park. And I think 3-4 years old is a bear as far as listening. Their behavior sounds normal but exhausting and unpleasant to deal with constantly.

Do you have the room in your budget to have someone come watch your baby for 90 minutes so you can take the older to the park twice a week? That would free you up somewhat.

I would let them know that you are not giving multiple chances at the park anymore. The first time they don't listen/behave badly with another child you are leaving. I did this with DD all of 3 times at the park when she ran away from me and then she realized that not listening/running away meant the end of fun. Plus, I find that once she starts not listening--it doesn't get any better. Usually it's a signal that nothing good will happen next.

Do you have a back yard? Can you have small playdates there and avoid the park for a bit? I would not want to be chasing my child all around the park, I feel your pain. I had to stop taking DD places for a while--like the store--because she was constantly acting out in public. Like everyone mentioned, it pushed my buttons too, so I just stopped for a while. I did my grocery shopping at night at 8pm for a while (which was actually heavenly--no kids, no crowds...) and just gave her some time to mature.

For getting dressed in the morning, do you have any kind of routine? For us, the best days are when DD (just 5) gets up and gets dressed and goes to the bathroom first thing. So, before breakfast or any fun stuff. She likes to watch Superwhy in the morning so that's what works here.

Also, I would ask--what happened after you left the park when he ran away with the kite? Was leaving the consequence? For me, I would add on that we won't be returning to the park until I felt that I could trust DD to treat other children and myself with respect.

I might also have some bedtime talks about respect, and how it makes people feel when you don't listen to them. How respect is important in a family, and how you as a mom try very hard to respect your child...it's a big talk but I think seeds of it can take root.

Respect and listening--everyone in your family needs to do that--you and the daddy and the kids. It's not singling them out to be mean to insist that they listen. What do you do for discipline currently?


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

My DD is 4, i'm 37weeks pregnant and i HEAR you mama!

I think with DD i used to be very "on top" of how she was doing, so i could predict when things were going to get crazy, and deflect or rearrange it all. NOw i'm so big and pregnant i'm not able to interact the way she wants and i'm not fast enough to chase her AND SHE KNOWS IT - i think a lot of the problem is i feel her running off is deliberately provocative when she knows i can't chase her and i guess i feel she's being purposefully cruel to me. I find myself thinking "when this baby is 8 weeks old you are in SERIOUS trouble lady" when she runs off, which isn't healthy at all!

I guess i'm not doing too well, and not in a position to advise - she's driving me crazy, she just doesn't listen half the time.

My coping tactics are:

I give one chance. If she doesn't come in from the yard for dinner the 2nd time i ask her i slam the back door shut and go eat. She always comes running, and if she didn't she'd be offered cold food. I only have so much time for micro-managing someone's behaviour in that context.

If she can't behave i hold her hand (or arm if she won't hold hands). I hate it, she hates it, but before i do it i get down and say "i cannot chase you, you won't stick close by me, you won't hold my hand and so i can't keep you safe unless i hold your arm. I'm sorry this is the only option, but all the other options you have refused" and then i hold her arm. Yes, i am the mama with the squirming yelling kid. Oh well, i am not the mama with the dead-on-the-road kid who ran away...

In the snacks scenario (which has happened to us) i left the snacks where they were and 2 minutes after we left the park, when she announced she was hungry, i said it was too bad she dumped the snacks out then. She was hungry. Oh well. Tough. If *I* had wanted some of the snacks i'd have picked enough for myself up and left hers there.

If she won't get dressed we can't go out. Which is sad. But a fact. I don't care if she gets dressed in the house/yard so long as she's not naked (i'm in Scotland). I let her out in the rain. If she refuses a jacket she gets cold.

I am so tired and pregnant at this stage i'm kind of over caring what other parents think of me at this stage. Most of the people who have being openly judgemental have one kid and no pregnancy and i can't compete with that. I definitely think everyone is the perfect parent until they have a kid, and everyone is a good parent until they have 2. Once you get to 3 and beyond you should get a medal for getting out of bed.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I definitely think everyone is the perfect parent until they have a kid, and everyone is a good parent until they have 2. Once you get to 3 and beyond you should get a medal for getting out of bed.

That is an awesome quote!


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## Melanie_7773 (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm struggling with similar behaviour in my 4.5 year old. I too am feeling like I've tried to be reasonable, parent with love, avoid coercion, threats, yelling, punishments, etc. And I really believe that it CAN work. But right now I have a child who frequently refuses to co-operate with even the simplest of requests, ignores her father and I when we speak, and throws a fit if the slightest little thing doesn't go her way. And I don't know if it's because I've "let her get away with it", or if it's just a phase she would be going through regardless of my parenting approach.

The kite thing really reasonated with me. Truthfully, I don't think my daughter would ever dream of grabbing something from one of her friends or schoolmates, and certainly not from a stranger. But she does this ALL THE TIME to her 18 month old brother. And I typically ask her to give it back, and she refuses. And I tell her that she made her brother sad, and it doesn't make a difference to her. And then I tell her to give it back or I will take it from her, and then I do end up prying it out of her hands. And possbily the worst thing is that by the time we've gone through all of this, her brother has moved on to something else and no longer cares about the thing anyway.

I just think it's so unfair to let her do this, repeatedly, to her much younger and mostly defenceless brother. I suppose I could try apologizing on her behalf and hoping that she will do the right thing, but I don't think that would go far to console my 1.5 year old (especially when/if she chooses not to do the right thing), and really, what does it teach my daughter? That she can take whatever she wants from her brother whenever she wants, and that the only consequence is that he will be unhappy? Frankly, she knows perfectly well that she *shouldn't* do those things, but whatever she wants in that moment is simply more important to her than her brother's happiness.

I really appreciated NellieKatz's perspective on a possible alternative to dealing with the kite situation, but even so I'm not sure it's practical. The assumption seemed to be that the kite was taken from a friend, and maybe it was in this particular case. But what if it was taken from a stranger? Is it really adequate to console someone else's kid with "sorry, my child is still learning how to share, hopefully he'll bring it back soon"? I try not to worry too much about what other people think of my parenting, but I don't think most people would agree that this is a suitable response. I'm not sure I would think it was enough if someone did that to my kid. And when the kid with the kite does come back and the parent asks him to hand over the kite (not those words, of course), what happens if the kid screams "NO" and runs off again? Do you tell the other kid and his parent "oh, sorry about your kite but my charming child isn't ready to give it back yet"?

Sorry, I don't mean to tear apart what I think was a very thoughtful response. I'm just so frustrated with this aspect of my child's behaviour at the moment, and really at a loss for how to deal with it. Besides "this too shall pass".


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

You know, I fall into the developmentally appropriate does not always equal socially acceptable camp, no matter what the age. So for me, apologizing and consoling a stranger child while mine ran around with their kite would just not be OK. I would get the kite back for the other child....and perhaps I would just be showing my child that the bigger, stronger parent can take stuff from them when they want to, and maybe they'll grow out of it shortly, but the message 'sorry he's having a hard time learning how to share, he'll bring it back soon' sends to the other kid when it's their own item is just not OK to me - now, if it was my kid's kite and the kid asked to borrow it and my kid said no, TOTALLY different story IMO and I wouldn't have a problem letting the stranger kid know gently that my kid didn't want to share it. We have lots of discussions on being polite and kind, so it's not like I'd wordlessly rip it out of my kid's hand while berating them. I would explain the situation to them and say that they had a choice to either give it back to the kid themself, or I'd give it back for them but that keeping it was not an option, and then as gently as possible give the kite back even if it upset my kid. My child's right to be developmentally appropriate stops when he/she upsets another kid (especially a stranger). Just like my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of someone else's nose. 3 yrs old or 30, it's just not OK, and like many other things 3 yos can't understand but are "made" to do (like periodic baths, brushing teeth, car seats, etc.), this is one of them for me, too. I will be empathetic with my kid and not scream at them, but I will get the object back for the other kid. And I will talk with my kid about it afterwards that night, etc. about the situation and how it could have been handled better.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

OK first of all...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Once you get to 3 and beyond you should get a medal for getting out of bed.

Sweet! Where do I go to claim mine?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
You know, I fall into the developmentally appropriate does not always equal socially acceptable camp, no matter what the age. So for me, apologizing and consoling a stranger child while mine ran around with their kite would just not be OK. I would get the kite back for the other child....and perhaps I would just be showing my child that the bigger, stronger parent can take stuff from them when they want to, and maybe they'll grow out of it shortly, but the message 'sorry he's having a hard time learning how to share, he'll bring it back soon' sends to the other kid when it's their own item is just not OK to me - now, if it was my kid's kite and the kid asked to borrow it and my kid said no, TOTALLY different story IMO and I wouldn't have a problem letting the stranger kid know gently that my kid didn't want to share it. We have lots of discussions on being polite and kind, so it's not like I'd wordlessly rip it out of my kid's hand while berating them. I would explain the situation to them and say that they had a choice to either give it back to the kid themself, or I'd give it back for them but that keeping it was not an option, and then as gently as possible give the kite back even if it upset my kid. My child's right to be developmentally appropriate stops when he/she upsets another kid (especially a stranger). Just like my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of someone else's nose. 3 yrs old or 30, it's just not OK, and like many other things 3 yos can't understand but are "made" to do (like periodic baths, brushing teeth, car seats, etc.), this is one of them for me, too. I will be empathetic with my kid and not scream at them, but I will get the object back for the other kid. And I will talk with my kid about it afterwards that night, etc. about the situation and how it could have been handled better.

I totally agree. Honestly, and I'm sure this will get me some flames, some of the advice here (not just this thread, but there are definitely some examples here) is why GD gets a bad reputation. Yes, maybe a lot of the issues are related to age-appropriate behaviour - but that does not mean that they are socially acceptable!

Also - about picking up the spilled snacks yourself because the child refuses to help - I don't understand how that is teaching them anything useful. It seems to me like that basically teaches them that if they don't feel like doing something they are asked to do, that's fine, someone else will do it for them. I don't know what the answer is - and I have had VERY similar situations myself - but just giving in and doing it myself is not.cool. with me.

I would LOVE to see more discussion about managing all of these situations with multiple children to watch. The initial advice given sounds great if you have plenty of time to stand there and negotiate, model, supervise, guide, etc. But the OP has 3 kids. So do I (and so do lots of other moms reading here I'm sure), and I know that I have MAYBE 10 seconds to deal with a situation before I need to be sprinting off to catch one of the other kids or deal with their situation.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Xander* 
some of the advice here (not just this thread, but there are definitely some examples here) is why GD gets a bad reputation. Yes, maybe a lot of the issues are related to age-appropriate behaviour - but that does not mean that they are socially acceptable!

Also - about picking up the spilled snacks yourself because the child refuses to help - I don't understand how that is teaching them anything useful. It seems to me like that basically teaches them that if they don't feel like doing something they are asked to do, that's fine, someone else will do it for them. I don't know what the answer is - and I have had VERY similar situations myself - but just giving in and doing it myself is not.cool. with me.

I remember many, many times years ago when discussions of consensual parenting vs parent-authority parenting and how they both fit in the GD realm would occur on the boards, that the consensual parents would qualify that the solutions to problems had to be OK for *everyone*, not just one party or the other - and it seemed that the parents living consensually, at least to me, were just more creative and patient than I.







The assertion that the solutions don't really take extra time to reach once you get into practice of being open to multiple ways of doing things sounds great, but every discussion I read with various examples made my head spin and I'd get antsy thinking about that amount of thought going into, for example, a trip to the grocery store or getting buckled into a car seat. I'll fully own that that may be my own issues and that for some people it can really work.

So coming from the "mutual solutions" angle, I can't imagine that the kid that gets his/her kite taken is going to be OK with my kid running around with it until they feel ready to give it back. I would agree that this is the area where different kinds of GD can get sticky.

IMO not compelling your kid to do something when it's a situation that involves just you/your family/your kid is one thing (like the snack situation above), because it's your family and if that's how you want to parent/live it has no impact on anyone else, so more power to you.....but when it involves someone else outside of your family or your close circle of friends (if they're living that way too or are OK with it) , I don't think it's fair to make other people (i.e. strangers) have to engage in that if they're not interested in it for whatever reason.

As an adult, I do things regularly without asking why or trying to negotiate a different solution if it's not exactly what I wanted to do...and it doesn't cause me a sense of dread or oppression or anything. I sometimes feel like always finding a mutual solution leads kids to feeling like they should always be able to negotiate the outcome of all interactions/situations that aren't exactly to their liking, when reality is not that way (at least my reality isn't) nor do I particularly think it should in order to be a content, fulfilled person.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Actually, for the snack-kind of situations that just involve me and my kid, I sometimes will let them know what I want them to do....and if they don't, I'll do it myself and then later on in the day let them know I wasn't happy about having to do it myself and that next time I expected them to help me. That's right out of Anthony Wolf's "The Secret Of Parenting". It sounds like it would never work, but I have gotten pretty good results.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

The4OfUs said:


> for me, apologizing and consoling a stranger child while mine ran around with their kite would just not be OK. I would get the kite back for the other child....QUOTE]
> 
> Maybe I did not make myself clear. I am on another screen now typing this response so I can't double-check my exact words, but I think the original problem had been that the original poster usually chases after the child and the child runs away laughing or some such thing. My idea being that rather than chase the child, you do the best you can to get him back by NOT chasing him. By NOT engaging him in that cat & mouse game. And in the mean time yes, it's nice to go over and apologize to the other kid--yes, a stranger--out of consideration, not so much in an effort to make excuses for your kid. But if the kid is crying and feels that your kid has been mean (which kite grabbing certainly qualifies for), then I think that apologizing and saying something kind or whatever is entirely appropriate.
> 
> ...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
My idea being that rather than chase the child, you do the best you can to get him back by NOT chasing him. By NOT engaging him in that cat & mouse game. And in the mean time yes, it's nice to go over and apologize to the other kid--yes, a stranger--out of consideration, not so much in an effort to make excuses for your kid. But if the kid is crying and feels that your kid has been mean (which kite grabbing certainly qualifies for), then I think that apologizing and saying something kind or whatever is entirely appropriate.

Of course you want to get the kite back and give it to its rightful owner! LOL
It's just a matter of how and when, and I thought the OP was in no position to chase her child.

You know, I see your point. That not chasing the kid might in fact make them come to you because you're not engaging in the struggle. Got it.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
You know, I see your point. That not chasing the kid might in fact make them come to you because you're not engaging in the struggle. Got it.

Am I the only one who wants to know what to do when NOT chasing them doesn't work either?







Because in my experience, it really doesn't help. They seem to interpret is as permission to continue doing whatever it is that they are not supposed to do.

(No, I don't chase them either... ineffective and makes you look like a fool, lol)

I don't know. I guess there are no easy answers. It is just frustrating to keep reading on here "just do xyz" but that never seems to work either. My 2 older boys both have some special needs that affect their behaviour though, so perhaps these things do work for other kids without those issues. I don't have a lot of experience with "normal"


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I did say "might"....lol.

Honestly, I'm not sure my kid would come back to me any sooner than a few minutes, which would be too long for me to be OK with if the other kid was crying. I would probably end up chasing them down as best I could, getting madder the longer I had to chase them, and leaving once the kid had their kite back. Not pretty, but it's what would likely happen.

I think in situations like that, you're right, there are no easy answers and it's just muddling through as best you can in a crappy situation...and trying to avoid/prevent the crappy situation if possible (e.g., your kid is tired, hungry, been acting crabby all day, etc. other trigger things that might make it best to skip a playground or other outing that day)


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Melanie_7773* 
I'm struggling with similar behaviour in my 4.5 year old. I too am feeling like I've tried to be reasonable, parent with love, avoid coercion, threats, yelling, punishments, etc. And I really believe that it CAN work. But right now I have a child who frequently refuses to co-operate with even the simplest of requests, ignores her father and I when we speak, and throws a fit if the slightest little thing doesn't go her way. And I don't know if it's because I've "let her get away with it", or if it's just a phase she would be going through regardless of my parenting approach.

The kite thing really reasonated with me. Truthfully, I don't think my daughter would ever dream of grabbing something from one of her friends or schoolmates, and certainly not from a stranger. But she does this ALL THE TIME to her 18 month old brother. And I typically ask her to give it back, and she refuses. And I tell her that she made her brother sad, and it doesn't make a difference to her. And then I tell her to give it back or I will take it from her, and then I do end up prying it out of her hands. And possbily the worst thing is that by the time we've gone through all of this, her brother has moved on to something else and no longer cares about the thing anyway.

I just think it's so unfair to let her do this, repeatedly, to her much younger and mostly defenceless brother. I suppose I could try apologizing on her behalf and hoping that she will do the right thing, but I don't think that would go far to console my 1.5 year old (especially when/if she chooses not to do the right thing), and really, what does it teach my daughter? That she can take whatever she wants from her brother whenever she wants, and that the only consequence is that he will be unhappy? Frankly, she knows perfectly well that she *shouldn't* do those things, but whatever she wants in that moment is simply more important to her than her brother's happiness.

This is my situation exactly right now. I have a 4.5 year old and she seems adverse to just about everything right now. I'm trying to develop a whole new set of skills because everything that used to work to help her doesn't anymore. It's exhausting!

Enjoying reading this thread.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I fully rely on 'the voice' and 'the look.' My daughter is only 14 months old but she knows that if I use those, I mean business. She will usually test me but if I just sit there and give her the look, she'll get bored because she isn't getting any reaction - no yelling, no chasing, no nothing. Once she moves onto something else, I pull out my normal voice again and thank her for listening and that I love her. I'm huge on always making sure I say please and thank you to her and let her know I love her all the time. I grew up always feeling disrespected and not understanding why I had to treat my parents one way, but they could treat me another so I really make sure she gets from me what I want from her.

Mine is only 14 months though so she is barely getting into the toddler/disagreeing/tantrum stage. I'm kind of scared of what 4 will bring us.... hopefully the voice and look work then too...


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I'd just like to throw out there that the kiterunner child is FOUR years old, not two. I can see not chasing a two year old, they're not going very far. I cannot see allowing a four year old to run off with someone elses toy and wait for them to return on their own. To me, four is plenty mature enough to understand that stealing someone elses toy and running off is wrong, and that not coming to Mommy when she calls you is also wrong.

I live in NJ, and all stereotypes apply, people here can be very "in your face" and if my FOUR YEAR OLD child stole something from another child who was then crying, and I apologized but continued to let my child run off with it for an indefinite amount of time--I am pretty sure I would be running the risk of THE OTHER MOM chasing my child and grabbing the kite and then probably frightening the bejesus out of my child. On most playgrounds here, four is a bigger kid, because once they hit five the kids are off to school.

One thing that keeps popping out in the post to me, is that all of this happened, and then they sat down for snacks (if I'm reading it right)? So it just seems like there is no consequence for this kind of behavior--which involved stealing a kite, running away with it, not listening to mom, hitting the other child when he did have to return it and--the dropping snacks I can handle--but that's just the cherry on top of this Mom's rough day!

We used redirection for a loooong time, and then moved on to non-punitive time outs when DD was about 3. As in, I don't say "You are a bad child and must sit there." But I do say, "That behavior is not acceptable. When you can (stop hitting, start listening to Mommy) please come back and play."

And yes, I too only have the one child--I cannot even begin to fathom how tough it would be to take three kids to the park, plus you do have the added stress of having to make everyone leave when only one child is misbehaving but...for me, the bottom line is you have to set limits and stick to them to preserve some order every day. Even if sometimes it feels like it's only for your sanity!


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I don't think taking another kid's toy without permission is a "sharing" issue. You wouldn't say, in a shop your child had just shoplifted in, "sorry, he's still learning how to share!". That's NOT sharing or related to sharing, it's stealing, plain and simple. Which isn't to say that i would throw my 4 year old in jail if she did this, but equally i wouldn't calmly dismiss it as a difficulty with sharing.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Again, missed the point. Put in whatever words you want--sharing, grabbing, whatever. But it's true, right? I mean, the point isn't that your little kid is a criminal of some kind and you can't wait to punish him for it. The point IS (at least I thought) that your kid really HASN'T LEARNED YET. Seriously!

Because if you think your kid really HAS LEARNED how to share and/or not yank things out of people's hands and/or be polite and socially acceptable at playdates but is just choosing to do the wrong thing because he seriously doesn't care what you or the others think...he just WANTS THAT KITE, then I suspect you have a bigger problem. I maintain that he hasn't learned. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Something in his head has not yet clicked, and it doesn't yet make sense to him to wait for the kite.

I have found that when my child is OLD ENOUGH to restrain impulsive behavior (impulsive thoughts like I want it so I grab it), understands what I want him to do and what his playmates want him to do, and is generally treated fairly in group settings (which my child now IS), he's going to do the right thing more often than not. When I look back to those times when he did not do that, and when he was more impulsive and grabby, I can attribute it both to a certain age he was at AND the fact that he was still in a very coercive, might-makes-right environment at the time. And say what you will, if a kid is being coerced and grabbed from and told what to do regardless of what he understands, or what's important to him, day in & day out (some households are like that), then there's more to his grabbiness than "misbehavior" that you have to stamp out.

I sound a little irritated I guess. It's probably because people seem to be assuming that I don't want to correct the grabbing behavior. I do. I just am talking about how to get there, and what I think is counterproductive vs. what I think gets us to the goal with our own dignity AND OUR CHILD'S DIGNITY intact. Very few people think of the child's dignity in these situations. It's all about us. How WE look as disciplinarians. Whether or not they obey US, the almighty gods of wisdom and patience that we are. (insert sarcastic look here) I have found out that many of my parenting methods LOOK crazy to more conventional folks at first glance. But in the end I want my kid to be a good playmate, whether with strangers or with friends, it doesn't matter. And if I don't treat him like a human being throughout the process, I'm not likely to get there.

I wish I had more time, but I promised I'd go up and play with him in 5 mins. and my time is up.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I'd just like to throw out there that the kiterunner child is FOUR years old, not two. I can see not chasing a two year old, they're not going very far. I cannot see allowing a four year old to run off with someone elses toy and wait for them to return on their own. To me, four is plenty mature enough to understand that stealing someone elses toy and running off is wrong, and that not coming to Mommy when she calls you is also wrong.

I live in NJ, and all stereotypes apply, people here can be very "in your face" and if my FOUR YEAR OLD child stole something from another child who was then crying, and I apologized but continued to let my child run off with it for an indefinite amount of time--I am pretty sure I would be running the risk of THE OTHER MOM chasing my child and grabbing the kite and then probably frightening the bejesus out of my child. On most playgrounds here, four is a bigger kid, because once they hit five the kids are off to school.

Yes, exactly. I just can't see most people being okay with that. I mean, if another kid took something from my kid, and ran off, refusing to give it back, and the parent basically just waited for the kid to come back when they were ready... I don't think I'd feel very good about that myself, yk? (not to mention that I don't think my kid would be very happy)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
One thing that keeps popping out in the post to me, is that all of this happened, and then they sat down for snacks (if I'm reading it right)? So it just seems like there is no consequence for this kind of behavior--which involved stealing a kite, running away with it, not listening to mom, hitting the other child when he did have to return it and--the dropping snacks I can handle--but that's just the cherry on top of this Mom's rough day!

We used redirection for a loooong time, and then moved on to non-punitive time outs when DD was about 3. As in, I don't say "You are a bad child and must sit there." But I do say, "That behavior is not acceptable. When you can (stop hitting, start listening to Mommy) please come back and play."

And yes, I too only have the one child--I cannot even begin to fathom how tough it would be to take three kids to the park, plus you do have the added stress of having to make everyone leave when only one child is misbehaving but...for me, the bottom line is you have to set limits and stick to them to preserve some order every day. Even if sometimes it feels like it's only for your sanity!

Not to nit-pick your post - I know you acknowledged that you have one child, not three - but leaving the park because one child misbehaved is WAAAAY easier said than done. Actually it is *physically impossible* a lot of the time. Same goes for any type of time-out/time-in/whatever you want to call it - any type of removing the child from a difficult situation is usually impossible to enforce - it's not as if they are going to willingly sit on a bench, and when you have other kids to attend to, the child who is supposed to be sitting on the bench simply takes off again. So the OP could very well have tried to enforce such a consequence, but it didn't work out...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
I sound a little irritated I guess. It's probably because people seem to be assuming that I don't want to correct the grabbing behavior. I do. I just am talking about how to get there, and what I think is counterproductive vs. what I think gets us to the goal with our own dignity AND OUR CHILD'S DIGNITY intact. Very few people think of the child's dignity in these situations. It's all about us. How WE look as disciplinarians. Whether or not they obey US, the almighty gods of wisdom and patience that we are. (insert sarcastic look here) I have found out that many of my parenting methods LOOK crazy to more conventional folks at first glance. But in the end I want my kid to be a good playmate, whether with strangers or with friends, it doesn't matter. And if I don't treat him like a human being throughout the process, I'm not likely to get there.

This is a good point, and actually where I think another disconnect happens for me and the more consensual GD parenting styles. I think that valuing a kid's feelings and validating their emotions is a really, really good thing - I think kids should be able to voice their opinions and their input be considered and implemented when possible. I don't, however, think that there's anything wrong with a kid feeling bad about something they shouldn't have done....sometimes to me it feels like paying too much attention to remaining neutral and positive and nonjudgemental can skitter close into the territory of emotional bubblewrapping, especially as the kids get out of toddlerhood and preschoolhood. I don't think that showing disappointment or making your kid give back another kid's kite is going to damage their psyche or ruin their dignity - I don't think kids in general are that fragile. I think that regularly berating a kid, never asking their opinion, never letting them have a say, and regularly ignoring them can lead to damage....but in scenarios where your kid has done something they shouldn't have, I don't think making them default to making amends quickly is going to damage them. Make them mad/embarrassed? Maybe - but damage their psyche? It takes a a fair amount of physical/emotional harm to do that for most people, from what I've read about people who did have childhoods where they felt unvalued or unheard, it was a daily, regular thing, not a correction when they did something they shouldn't have. In a case where my 4 yo took another 4 yos kite, my kid's dignity would actually be considered in line *behind* the other kid getting their kite back. NOW, TO BE CLEAR - I'm not going to purposely look to humiliate or embarrass my kid to "teach them a lesson" because I think that's gross, but I'm not going to put a lot of energy into figuring out a way for my kid to not be embarrassed at all if they did something they shouldn't have. IMO There's a difference between actively *trying* to humiliate your kid to prove your power (which is uncool in my book), going out of your way to be sure they don't feel bad about themselves at all, and somewhere in the middle where you try to resolve whatever it is quickly and if your kid feels bad they'll get over it with some discussion later on after the heat of the moment is over.

Gotta go get the bigger kiddo from school. This has been an interesting discussion for me.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Xander* 

Not to nit-pick your post - I know you acknowledged that you have one child, not three - but leaving the park because one child misbehaved is WAAAAY easier said than done. Actually it is *physically impossible* a lot of the time. Same goes for any type of time-out/time-in/whatever you want to call it - any type of removing the child from a difficult situation is usually impossible to enforce - it's not as if they are going to willingly sit on a bench, and when you have other kids to attend to, the child who is supposed to be sitting on the bench simply takes off again. So the OP could very well have tried to enforce such a consequence, but it didn't work out...

Nope, I totally get that. And I'm not sure how much speed you can get going to chase a 4 year old while you're wearing a baby either...I guess it comes back to--how does the OP make the point with her four year old that he needs to listen and cooperate?

What's the GD way of taking the time to impress upon this little boy that he needs to listen to his mom? That he is reaching the age (and this is a judgment up to the OP, but I am thinking from my own perspective) where running away and not listening like a toddler is not acceptable.

In addition to consequences like not going to the park for a good long time, I like bedtime talks and role playing. For a while, my DD and I had the "OK Club" where we tried to say OK to each other about as many things as we could all day.

"Pick up those toys, please."
"OK MOMMY"

"Can I have juice please?"
"OK DD!"

It was kind of a silly little game but I think it got us over a time when we were being disagreeable & combative with each other.

This is an interesting discussion. Everyone's different perspectives are really food for thought--especially as my DD moves into older kid territory (she's five now) and is getting more reasonable and also more argumentative! How do you foster an atmosphere where cooperation is more the norm?


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I don't, however, think that there's anything wrong with a kid feeling bad about something they shouldn't have done....sometimes to me it feels like paying too much attention to remaining neutral and positive and nonjudgemental can skitter close into the territory of emotional bubblewrapping, especially as the kids get out of toddlerhood and preschoolhood. I don't think that showing disappointment or making your kid give back another kid's kite is going to damage their psyche or ruin their dignity - I don't think kids in general are that fragile.

When on earth did I say these things? First of all, I *HATE* the emotional bubblewrapping and pussyfooting around and walking on eggshells that I presume you are speaking of. I've seen parents who are afraid of their kids' disapproval and it's pretty painful to watch. But since I never said that, I won't elaborate further on that.

But I do think that we have stumbled upon something here, in that you've taken my words to mean that I don't want the child to (a) be taught that the kite-grabbing is wrong, (b) to return the kite to its owner or (c) that my method is driven by a perception that my child's feelings are "fragile". Nothing could be further from the truth.

But what we have stumbled upon is the still-present (apparently) assumption that by caring about the child's inner learning....by caring that he can make sense of what I am teaching him in addition to guiding him toward learning to do socially acceptable things.....by doing these things, I am somehow squishy. I think we should all question these assumptions. How many of you (raise your hands) still have a little voice in your head which is all power-based right now ("no kid of mine would get away with that" "I'll teach him" "Now, I want to punish but I don't know how to do it gently" "Boy do I look ineffective in front of the other moms because I can't MAKE my kid do something" etc etc)

The point after all this babbling on my part is that just like you, I want my child to learn the socially acceptable behaviors under discussion. But I want him to learn them because he SEES them (in me and in our social circle) and he understands them. (Now we are not talking about the urgent, on-fire, non-negotiables here like waving a knife at a toddler during a picnic, or running toward the busy street. I am talking about stuff where we have a choice in how urgently we pounce on the situation.) I am talking about sharing, taking turns, caring for other kids' feelings, obeying the rules of the playground, etc. I want him to get there. And he's not fragile emotionally. But respecting someone's dignity as a human being does NOT mean that I am treating him like a hothouse flower. (There's a lot of "power-over" underlying an attitude that I am.) Respecting his dignity as a human being means that I can see that he is a small human, relatively new on this planet, desperately wanting to please Mama and be happy, but not always knowing how, given all the insane social messages that surround him every. single. day. all. day. in school and on TV & at home & beyond. I can see that he needs my help. That's all it means. He is not a dog to be trained, but a human to be built up from the inside out.

This is such a passionate topic for me, I am seriously considering writing a series of articles about it because posts are so woefully inadequate. But now I have to go pick hubby up from work. He just called. must run


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## DirtyHippyMama (Apr 29, 2007)

subbing to this. issue is very near and dear to my heart.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I notice that a lot of people here on the more consensual end of the spectrum have always parented that way, so what works for them might not work for the OP. I think that the whole democratic-problem-solving thing takes _practice_, and kids who haven't done it before will suck at it for awhile.

We were pretty coercive from about the age of two and we're trying to dig ourselves out of the hole at 3.5. I think it's working...(seeing as 3 can be a really tough age no matter how you parent, sometimes it's hard to tell.)

What I'm doing right now is trying to use a bunch of different techniques, but I'm trying to go slow and implement one at a time. Which is tough because DD's behavior sucks and I'm not very patient.







Hopefully it will be worth it though.

First of all, nobody has said on this thread that if a child is giving you power struggles over something, maybe it's a cry for MORE responsibility. Like getting ready...DD now gets herself ready. This has taken awhile to slooooooowly teach her to do it, enforce the logical consequences when she's tested me, etc...but so worth it. You have to expect the crying/screaming/etc when they are testing the system. The key is _not give in_ at this point. I'm trying to see the testing as good and a sign of an inquisitive mind and not a future sociopath







By the second or third time DD usually gets it. Another thing I do with getting ready is set the policy that if we have somewhere to be in the morning, you must be dressed before breakfast.

I have also set up a few situations when the logical consequences are totally OK. You don't want to get in the carseat? No prob, I have nowhere to be. Let's see who I can text while you figure out that parking lots are a really boring place to hang out. You're not going to be ready on time? Fine, I'm leaving without you (good thing Daddy's home and has been warned.)

If DD commits a playground faux pas I usually talk to the other parent. If the parent is laid back then I will usually help facilitate DD and the other kid working out the problem. If the parent is not laid back or DD is stubborn, then she would get the choice of behaving nicely at the park or going home. Then I would leave the park.

When I do the democratic-problem-solving thing, one thing that seems to resonate with DD is when I point out how it impacts ME. For some reason DD sometimes won't respond to stuff like "We don't steal kites" or "That little girl is really sad because you stole her kite" but will respond to "You're embarrassing me in front of the other mamas."


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
When on earth did I say these things? First of all, I *HATE* the emotional bubblewrapping and pussyfooting around and walking on eggshells that I presume you are speaking of. I've seen parents who are afraid of their kids' disapproval and it's pretty painful to watch. But since I never said that, I won't elaborate further on that.

But I do think that we have stumbled upon something here, in that you've taken my words to mean that I don't want the child to (a) be taught that the kite-grabbing is wrong, (b) to return the kite to its owner or (c) that my method is driven by a perception that my child's feelings are "fragile". Nothing could be further from the truth.

But what we have stumbled upon is the still-present (apparently) assumption that by caring about the child's inner learning....by caring that he can make sense of what I am teaching him in addition to guiding him toward learning to do socially acceptable things.....by doing these things, I am somehow squishy. I think we should all question these assumptions. How many of you (raise your hands) still have a little voice in your head which is all power-based right now ("no kid of mine would get away with that" "I'll teach him" "Now, I want to punish but I don't know how to do it gently" "Boy do I look ineffective in front of the other moms because I can't MAKE my kid do something" etc etc)

The point after all this babbling on my part is that just like you, I want my child to learn the socially acceptable behaviors under discussion. But I want him to learn them because he SEES them (in me and in our social circle) and he understands them. (Now we are not talking about the urgent, on-fire, non-negotiables here like waving a knife at a toddler during a picnic, or running toward the busy street. I am talking about stuff where we have a choice in how urgently we pounce on the situation.) I am talking about sharing, taking turns, caring for other kids' feelings, obeying the rules of the playground, etc. I want him to get there. And he's not fragile emotionally. But respecting someone's dignity as a human being does NOT mean that I am treating him like a hothouse flower. (There's a lot of "power-over" underlying an attitude that I am.) Respecting his dignity as a human being means that I can see that he is a small human, relatively new on this planet, desperately wanting to please Mama and be happy, but not always knowing how, given all the insane social messages that surround him every. single. day. all. day. in school and on TV & at home & beyond. I can see that he needs my help. That's all it means. He is not a dog to be trained, but a human to be built up from the inside out.

This is such a passionate topic for me, *I am seriously considering writing a series of articles about it because posts are so woefully inadequate*. But now I have to go pick hubby up from work. He just called. must run

you totally should. i love your responses in this thread and totally agree with them!







and yes, when i had one child i had endless patience. with 2 it has been rough but i also dont have the help i need (dh works too much imo)


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

thank you for the encouragement, *lookatreestar*!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

****** Oopsies, posted WAY too soon. Numerous rewrites and edits below.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
Again, missed the point. Put in whatever words you want--sharing, grabbing, whatever. But it's true, right? I mean, the point isn't that your little kid is a criminal of some kind and you can't wait to punish him for it. The point IS (at least I thought) that your kid really HASN'T LEARNED YET. Seriously!

Because if you think your kid really HAS LEARNED how to share and/or not yank things out of people's hands and/or be polite and socially acceptable at playdates but is just choosing to do the wrong thing because he seriously doesn't care what you or the others think...he just WANTS THAT KITE, then I suspect you have a bigger problem. I maintain that he hasn't learned. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Something in his head has not yet clicked, and it doesn't yet make sense to him to wait for the kite.

I have found that when my child is OLD ENOUGH to restrain impulsive behavior (impulsive thoughts like I want it so I grab it), understands what I want him to do and what his playmates want him to do, and is generally treated fairly in group settings (which my child now IS), he's going to do the right thing more often than not. When I look back to those times when he did not do that, and when he was more impulsive and grabby, I can attribute it both to a certain age he was at AND the fact that he was still in a very coercive, might-makes-right environment at the time. And say what you will, if a kid is being coerced and grabbed from and told what to do regardless of what he understands, or what's important to him, day in & day out (some households are like that), then there's more to his grabbiness than "misbehavior" that you have to stamp out.

I sound a little irritated I guess. It's probably because people seem to be assuming that I don't want to correct the grabbing behavior. I do. I just am talking about how to get there, and what I think is counterproductive vs. what I think gets us to the goal with our own dignity AND OUR CHILD'S DIGNITY intact. Very few people think of the child's dignity in these situations. It's all about us. How WE look as disciplinarians. Whether or not they obey US, the almighty gods of wisdom and patience that we are. (insert sarcastic look here) I have found out that many of my parenting methods LOOK crazy to more conventional folks at first glance. But in the end I want my kid to be a good playmate, whether with strangers or with friends, it doesn't matter. And if I don't treat him like a human being throughout the process, I'm not likely to get there.

I wish I had more time, but I promised I'd go up and play with him in 5 mins. and my time is up.

I think the concern I have with this is that it focuses on the needs on the grabbing child and ignores the needs and the dignity of the kite owner. IME there are ways to have the kite returned in a timely manner and not on the grabbing child's timetable while still treating that child with respect and teaching them more appropriate ways to meet their needs. It's not okay in my book to have one child's needs take precidence over anothers in this scenario and I actually think it teaches the child the wrong lesson.

OP I have 4 kids 5 years apart, with twins in the middle. They are 12, 9, 9 and almost 7 now. I think parenting a crew is vastly different from parenting one. For me the shift from one to many required becoming a far more proactive parent, rather than a reactive one, and keeping the bigger picture in mind. Here are some of the things that have worked for us.

1. Family rules.
When the kids were 2, 4, 4 and 7 we had a family meeting and worked with them on our list of 5 family rules. These came from the kids and we helped them simplify them but the wording is very intentional.
They are
~ always listen to one another
~ be kind
~ be helpful
~ use words to solve problems
~ respect what mum and dad ask

We still use these rules almost daily. They work because they came from the kids, they are simple, the cover every situation, and we expect everyone to follow them (parents kids and those around us).

So in the kite grabbing incident I would have said:
"Freeze! (more on that in a sec)
ARe you following our family rules? Are you being as kind as you can be?
Please bring the kite back now. We need to talk about this".
The kite would be returned to the owner. And then we would talk about it.
"How do you think the other child feels? What would you want if you were that child? How can we help you get what you want or need?"

This teaches the kids a few things:
1. It teaches them to act in accordance with their ethics (our family rules) and it teaches them to right the wrong immediately.
2. It helps them connect their actions to the effect on other people and gives them a chance for understanding (because they are asked to empathize) and the realization that they may need to make amends.
3. It gives them a chance to identify what it is that was motivating them and to brainstorm some strategies around how to get it - whether that is in the short term by asking to share or coming up with a group game, or a longer term solution like making our own kite that night with dad or putting it on the birthday list.

It leaves their dignity intact.

2. Freeze!
This is an important word in our family. We use it sparingly and it is only when someone is in danger or someone is being hurt. The kids literally freeze and then listen.
We worked on this a lot by talking about it regularly and practising (as a game). With me having a 3 year old and twins and then two year old twins, a 5 year old and an infant I needed a verbal command that worked.

3. Prep prep prep
Things always run most smoothly if I prep my kids for success.
So the prep for the trip to the park for example would be a mini family meeting before we leave the van.
We'd go over
~ our family rules.
~ any place specific rules - (ie no throwing sand, watch out and take care of other kids, leave anything you dont want to share in the van, be a good friend etc)
~ what our plan is (what we have for snack, what are the boundaries, how long we are going to stay, why we might have to leave early (fussy baby etc).

This just takes a few minutes, we talk about it rather than me lecturing the kids and I check in for understanding before we get out of the van (particularly with the kid(s) who are most likely to struggle with any of that this day).

4. Catch them being good.
I don't mean turn them into a praise junky but I do mean that noticing and thanking my oldest for helping his little sister or commenting to my son about how much I think the other kids are appreciating his generousity in sharing helps set the tone.

I also think that reminding them in advance of them needing correction is a valuable skill. You can often tell if a kid is getting wound up or frustrated etc. That's the perfect time to call them over for a quick snack, a cuddle, a sip of water, or a reminder of some of the other options they have, like telling them the swings are open. In that moment I thank them for their efforts and remind them of whatever they might need to remember. It helps them recenter and also meets other needs at the same time (connection, physical - hunger or thirst, a reminder of who they want to be and what tools they have to be that.)

5. Ask them if they need help.
If a kid is struggling or out of sorts I ask them what they need and try to give them some suggestions - a snack, a cuddle, some quiet time, a distraction, help with a strategy or words to solve a problem. I also try to help them name what they are feeling (frustrated, lonely, tired, overwhelmed etc).

6. Be prepared yourself.
For me this meant having a back-up kit packed in the van that had things like a blanket, bubbles, blow up beach ball, a good book, crayon and paper, some extra snack, a discovery kit (magnifying glass, bag for treasures etc).
It also means have a plan for the day (basically realizing ahead of time when to pull the plug and how that can happen smoothly), to remind myself of some strategies to help the kids, and to remember which battles I will take a stand on and what I will let slide. I usually take a stand on issues related to safety, respect of others and respect for community property.

The snack thing I would have probably just said "The snack is on the ground. We need to clean it up. It's not kind to others to leave our messes in the park. I will hold the box and you can pick it up." If the child took off I would have asked another of my kids to help clean up and then would have allowed for natural and logical consequences - no snack, and a discussion around responsibilities, family rules and how to make amends for having someone else have to clean up his/her mess.

I think a lot of this works because it is just part of our family expectations and they are communicated regularly. I make consistent use of a no-nonsense voice, and head shake and the raised eyebrow.

I hope this helps.
Karen


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*


But what we have stumbled upon is the still-present (apparently) assumption that by caring about the child's inner learning....by caring that he can make sense of what I am teaching him in addition to guiding him toward learning to do socially acceptable things.....by doing these things, I am somehow squishy. I think we should all question these assumptions. How many of you (raise your hands) still have a little voice in your head which is all power-based right now ("no kid of mine would get away with that" "I'll teach him" "Now, I want to punish but I don't know how to do it gently" "Boy do I look ineffective in front of the other moms because I can't MAKE my kid do something" etc etc)

The point after all this babbling on my part is that just like you, I want my child to learn the socially acceptable behaviors under discussion. But I want him to learn them because he SEES them (in me and in our social circle) and he understands them. (Now we are not talking about the urgent, on-fire, non-negotiables here like waving a knife at a toddler during a picnic, or running toward the busy street. I am talking about stuff where we have a choice in how urgently we pounce on the situation.) I am talking about sharing, taking turns, caring for other kids' feelings, obeying the rules of the playground, etc. I want him to get there. And he's not fragile emotionally. But respecting someone's dignity as a human being does NOT mean that I am treating him like a hothouse flower. (There's a lot of "power-over" underlying an attitude that I am.) Respecting his dignity as a human being means that I can see that he is a small human, relatively new on this planet, desperately wanting to please Mama and be happy, but not always knowing how, given all the insane social messages that surround him every. single. day. all. day. in school and on TV & at home & beyond. I can see that he needs my help. That's all it means. He is not a dog to be trained, but a human to be built up from the inside out.



**Warning after I proofread this and realized how long it is** - holy novel, Batman! I've been away from the GD boards for a while and recently started coming back, and what follows is just a gigantic brain/heart dump. Reader, beware......









I'm honestly not intersted in training my kids like dogs. I'm really not. In fact, I kind of feel like I'm a little burnt because I spent a lot of time when they were both in the 18-month to 3 range: Distracting and redirecting and honoring impulses and discussing feelings and laying background and giving options and alternatives for next time and working on the inner learning, and NOT punishing or judging or shaming or berating or time outing. If you look at my posts from oh, 2006 to 2008 on this board you'll see me advocating for all of the things above and in my more philosophical posts talking about kids UNDERSTANDING things and not just doing them to avoid punishment; so I'm really right there with you in spirit, and have embraced those things for years and been the hippie/nonpunitive/GD advocate parent on my local mom boards and to IRL friends.

Yet in my personal experience with my own kids, I'd say 50% of the time at this point (they're 6 and almost 4) the kids just do not want to discuss anything, despite the years of background work I've done when they were younger - they just want what they want when they want it and have no interest in working things out with someone (me or others) - the other 50% of the time it's great and we work things out, but that 50% where they don't want to compromise is DRAINING, and disheartening - maybe IM DOIN IT RONG or something....and it's not that I think everyone should be perfect problem solvers all the time, but seeing these problems INCREASE as they get older instead of DECREASE - yeah, that's like a kick in the butt. When he was around 4 ish and she was 2 ish, things were really pretty good as far as us all working together on things. Then, things started changing so subtlely I barely noticed it at first, then about 6 months ago I realized that though about half the time we work really well together and live harmoniously, just as often they decide my reasons and explanations (which were the same as the ones I gave them 2 years ago) were no longer acceptable and they just weren't going to do what I asked because sometimes "they didn't feel like it" (yes, a direct quote from my son when I asked them about why it seemed harder for us to cooperate lately). I really like the *concept* of consensual parenting, but I just can't seem to make it really gel in my life. As I said before, I feel neither patient nor creative enough once I discuss/explain things and give options, and they are unmoved to compromise, to move forward. So then it finally comes down to, "I understand you don't want to X; we still need to Y because of Z." and then I make whatever it is happen as gently/quickly as possible, _while _validating their upset (which is a technique I advocated on this very board with those very words years ago when they were younger and mentioned that as they got older I anticipated would not be necessary since they would understand more).

I honestly, really did not mean for my earlier post to come across as attacking/criticizing. I don't think you're squishy, or that you personally are walking on eggshells or bubblewrapping anyone - that was mostly philosophical talk and though I quoted your post, was not specifically directed at *you*, just the concepts in general - and for that, I sincerely apologize. I am as I said above, kind of burnt and a little disgruntled because I thought this was going to get *easier* as they got older, and so far...it hasn't. I also do not mean this post to be directed to you specifically; to some of your questions/points, yes, but also to the general philosophical and practical discussion.

I think the hitch for me is (and this is a general question, not directed at anyone in particular), what happens when your kid really *doesn't* come back to you in 2 minutes.....3 minutes.....5 minutes...when you are waiting for them and call to them again or move towards them and they run farther away (I had a situation where my son ran a full baseball field distance away from me and only stopped because I shrieked his name in genuine terror because he was near a ravine that led to a creek and he didn't know how to swim. He was mad because I suggested he let a kid who was dragging their feet on the merrygoround slowing it down have a couple turns doing that and then he could go faster on the merrygoround when they were off or done dragging their feet - I quickly stopped trying to follow/walk/talk with him and he just kept going further and further away).....or, if they do come to you and you talk about how the other kid didn't like it and it made them sad when they took the kite and that they should ask instead and please give the kite back and we can have a do-over, and your kid flat out refuses. Maybe kids who are consensually parented form the get go aren't like that a lot, but what about others? What do you do then? You discuss the feeling of the other kid and suggest several different resolutions to the kite situation, and your kid just won't give the kite back. Cause I've had it happen with my daughter in the past year - not the running away part, but the refusing to give back part, after brief discussions about asking politely and taking turns and she could play with this other thing while she waits for her turn and please give it back for a do-over. So what then? I let her keep whatever it is for another minute and try again? I let her keep it until she decides she's done with it? I keep trying to think of a way to explain it to her that she's going to care about while the other kid stands there waiting? That just doesn't feel right to me (and not because of what the other parent would think of ME, but because of what I feel like it's teaching HER). *That's* where my patience and creativity runs out. If I've given a couple alternatives, and reasons why they should or shouldn't be doing something (especially if it's a topic we've talked about numerous times before, and it's something that has upset someone else) and they're not responding at all, my patience is over and I'm going to make something (gently but firmly) happen. And no, it won't *always* come to that - sometimes she grabs something and I say, "K, please ask politely before taking something, they weren't done with their turn yet" and she grumbles and hands it back and waits....but then other times, she doesn't.

Maybe I have particularly stubborn, persistent children, or maybe it's because I'm a pushy, naggy mom and they're rebelling. At this point, I feel like either is possible.

The topics mentioned above are ones we have had conversations about in non-heat-of-the-moment times for years now; and they seem to understand, and talk with me about things like how the other person feels, and how we could handle things better. *BUT:* In the heat of the moment that all goes out the window. For all of us, I suppose.

Sooooooooo - um, there you have it. My deep, dark GD confession. My fraud is unveiled







: My GD card revoked.







In all seriousness, I have 2 great kids who much of the time are polite and considerate and willing to work with me and get comments from others about how great they are....but also have plenty of times when they're not, and I just can't figure out a way around, "I understand you don't want to X. We still have to Y because of Z." because I run out of patience or ideas and they aren't interested in the ones I've given.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
What has worked for me is to separate the issues.
Following the previous example our first step is to make it right - give the kite back.
It's non negotiable but the kids "get" that because we use the structure of our family rules. I give them 2 options - I am happy to do it for them because sometimes that part is hard for them, or they can do it themselves.
This discussion isn't antagonistic or done in a threatening or punishing way. It just appeals to their higher selves and their basic understanding of the right way to act.
Invoking our family rule (their moral centre) is the short cut through that discussion.

THEN we have the discussion about the whys and where do we go from here where the issues are worked through.

I am sorry you feel like this is getting harder.
I know for me when it feels that way I go back to basics.
We talk more about our family rules and how they help us live up to our own expectations for ourselves.
I prep my kids more and doing that helps me thing through more strategies.
I also make more effort and time to reconnect individually with my kids. It's that connection that makes all of this possible and if I am struggling it is often a sign that the connection needs some tending.

hang in there
Karen

Thanks, Karen. I do actually do what you suggest above with my own kids in our interactions. I absolutely would have the kite returned whether my kid wanted to or not - not with shaming or yelling, but it would be done quickly, then I talk with my kid. The questions in this part was more a philosophical discussion for me about more consensual parenting and how it works when obstacles come up. I read your first response and it is a lot like how I parent, the prepping, dicsussing, etc. I'm in a philosophical crisis on several levels and topics right now.







: I appreciate your post, though. We have in the past month focused on playing with them daily on their terms and spending one on one time with each of them regularly....thus far, we have not seen much in the way of increased cooperation. Hope springs eternal, though.









I'm not sure if I feel like it's getting harder overall, but it sure ain't getting easier, which I thought it would.







Some things are way easier, but others are harder.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I would let them know that you are not giving multiple chances at the park anymore. The first time they don't listen/behave badly with another child you are leaving. I did this with DD all of 3 times at the park when she ran away from me and then she realized that not listening/running away meant the end of fun. Plus, I find that once she starts not listening--it doesn't get any better. Usually it's a signal that nothing good will happen next.

Also, I would ask--what happened after you left the park when he ran away with the kite? Was leaving the consequence? For me, I would add on that we won't be returning to the park until I felt that I could trust DD to treat other children and myself with respect.

I agreed with everything you said, but especially these two points! Even if it makes your other child sad (and maybe you can make it up to him later), I would leave the park immediately if this happened, and definitely explain why we were leaving. BTW, in regard to above posts, I am 36 wks pregnant with #3, and my children are 3 and 6 years old, I'm still certain that i could make them simultaneously leave the park if necessary. I don't like to remind kids of their failures, but it can be helpful to remind them of why they are experiencing certain consequences: "Today is Monday, and usually we go to the park on Monday, but we are not going today because I'm not sure that you are going to be nice to the other kids." "when you can show me that you'll be nice to the other kids, we can go to the park more often", of course with the occasional trip to the park to test the waters (with a reminder before getting out of the car that we will only be at the park if everyone plays nice). BTW, I rarely chase my kids if I'm hoping for them to come to me- it's too much fun for them to resist running!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Karenwith4--I'd like to be one of the kids in your minivan! You sound you like you are working together as a great team.

The4OfUS--I wonder if where you are now is just what it is. I don't know that any of us ever reach 100% tranquility and agreement with our children...you're at 50/50 now and you're handling situations in a way where you can still respect yourself and your children, that doesn't sound too bad to me. Who knows what the next stage will bring?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
...We have in the past month focused on playing with them daily on their terms and spending one on one time with each of them regularly....thus far, we have not seen much in the way of increased cooperation. Hope springs eternal, though.









I'm not sure if I feel like it's getting harder overall, but it sure ain't getting easier, which I thought it would.







Some things are way easier, but others are harder.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Karenwith4--I'd like to be one of the kids in your minivan! You sound you like you are working together as a great team.

The4OfUS--I wonder if where you are now is just what it is. I don't know that any of us ever reach 100% tranquility and agreement with our children...you're at 50/50 now and you're handling situations in a way where you can still respect yourself and your children, that doesn't sound too bad to me. Who knows what the next stage will bring?

I'm scared about what the next stage will bring







:









I don't *think* I'm looking for 100% tranquility (though in recent months I have been exploring my tendency towards perfectionism in interpersonal relationships), and I think deep down there are things about consensual parenting that make it not a good fit for me - but nonetheless, I still wonder what it is I'm missing sometimes to just get it to click with the kids and me so I'm not pulling out the now broken record, "I understand you want to X. We still need to Y, because of Z." I feel like I say that too often, yet I don't know how to get from there if they're not in a place (for whatever reason) to work with me.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow. Again, hats off to you moms with more than one. It really IS a whole 'nother ball game at that point. I mean, not the principles of what we're discussing, but how much harder it is.

Secondly, I can say with full honesty that things started to change big-time when my little guy turned 7. I am so pleased and surprised how he's able to talk things out with me. Just one year ago I would have been (and was) ripping my hair out. It's an age thing. It gets better and if it helps, just know that all the impossible-seeming stuff that you know is right IS laying some kind of a foundation for a future good relationship where all that stuff you did will come back to you in a good form. It's happening to me right now. They might not seem like they're listening, but they really do stash everything you say and do away in the back of their heads, and I think they're putting puzzle pieces together the whole time, even when it looks like they are disregarding you.

My awe and encouragement go out to all of you with more than one kid. That's one area where I have zero expertise.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Perfect example of the 50/50 in my life, from today:

I pick DD up from preschool, and say I want to go to a local Agway just to look at some plants and get some prices. Not gonna buy anythng, just look, and get soem prices. But first, we grab a bite to eat. She is AWESOME at the restaurant and we have a great time and she is polite and patient and helpful, such that 2 other patrons even stop us and say what a kick they got out of her. Awesome - feeling so great and happy on our way to Agway. We get there, and I remind her in the van we'll walk around together and she shouldn't run from me - she has to see me and I have to see her. OK. I follow her around the garden statues/fountains a few times, I give her her own piece of paper and pen, and we start walking around, and it's going fine. In the blink of an eye, she decides she wants to dart in between a row of plants; not in the aisle, but in between the pallets/tables and concrete pavers that are backed up against each other to create the rows. She is squeeeeezing herself trying to get in, and I ask her to stop. "NO. I want to be IN here." This is what she wants to do, and she's gonna do her damndest to do it. I tell her I'm worried about her getting hurt. I tell her I don't want her knocking plants over. I tell her I wouldn't be happy if she surprised or scared someone who was shopping because they weren't expecting a little kid to pop out from between rows of plants. She starts SCREECHING and insisting that it's safe for her to squeeze in between these displays and continuing to try to squeeze in. I squat down again and repeat calmly again why I don't want her doing it and tell her that she needs to stop or we're going to have to leave because it's not safe. She screeches even LOUDER and tries to get in there again. So, I take her hand/wrist and calmly walk out, with her melting down LOUDLY the whole way. When we were both finally buckled in, I said, "What just happened there, why did you not listen to me when I was asking you to come out from the tables?"

and she said, "I wanted to play hide and seek, and I didn't want you to find me or follow me."

"Well, kiddo, Agway is NOT the place to do that, we can do that at home. Out in stores, we stay together and walk together to be safe." (which we've talked about 10 jillion times)

"But I WANTED to."

"I totally understand you wanted to, it's just not safe and not an option in that place - other places, yes - but there, no."

"Oh.......OK. Sorry."










All this within an hour's timespan. Sigh.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Perfect example of the 50/50 in my life, from today:

I pick DD up from preschool, and say I want to go to a local Agway just to look at some plants and get some prices. Not gonna buy anythng, just look, and get soem prices. But first, we grab a bite to eat. She is AWESOME at the restaurant and we have a great time and she is polite and patient and helpful, such that 2 other patrons even stop us and say what a kick they got out of her. Awesome - feeling so great and happy on our way to Agway. We get there, and I remind her in the van we'll walk around together and she shouldn't run from me - she has to see me and I have to see her. OK. I follow her around the garden statues/fountains a few times, I give her her own piece of paper and pen, and we start walking around, and it's going fine. In the blink of an eye, she decides she wants to dart in between a row of plants; not in the aisle, but in between the pallets/tables and concrete pavers that are backed up against each other to create the rows. She is squeeeeezing herself trying to get in, and I ask her to stop. "NO. I want to be IN here." This is what she wants to do, and she's gonna do her damndest to do it. I tell her I'm worried about her getting hurt. I tell her I don't want her knocking plants over. I tell her I wouldn't be happy if she surprised or scared someone who was shopping because they weren't expecting a little kid to pop out from between rows of plants. She starts SCREECHING and insisting that it's safe for her to squeeze in between these displays and continuing to try to squeeze in. I squat down again and repeat calmly again why I don't want her doing it and tell her that she needs to stop or we're going to have to leave because it's not safe. She screeches even LOUDER and tries to get in there again. So, I take her hand/wrist and calmly walk out, with her melting down LOUDLY the whole way. When we were both finally buckled in, I said, "What just happened there, why did you not listen to me when I was asking you to come out from the tables?"

and she said, "I wanted to play hide and seek, and I didn't want you to find me or follow me."

"Well, kiddo, Agway is NOT the place to do that, we can do that at home. Out in stores, we stay together and walk together to be safe." (which we've talked about 10 jillion times)

"But I WANTED to."

"I totally understand you wanted to, it's just not safe and not an option in that place - other places, yes - but there, no."

"Oh.......OK. Sorry."










All this within an hour's timespan. Sigh.

Ha! We have the same child!









This is precisely the sort of thing i deal with, and i haven't even HAD another one yet! I am kind of dreading how i will balance the needs of a newborn with her need to do crazy-dangerous things against loud repeated advice....

Nelliekatz my kid knows when she's misbehaving. I can tell when she doesn't know. For example her step-father was telling me something about work yesterday and she told him "shut up!" (which we don't use in our household at all and consider very rude, but which she has heard elsewhere) and i looked at her and she hid her face and said "i love you!". I replied "i love you too." then after a pause, "please remember not to say hurtful things to people honey" and that was that. Earlier on she had said "hi guys!" to a stranger and her little girl en route to the bus stop and then, 20 seconds later "hi fat ladies" to two fluffy ladies at the bus stop. When i explained to her that some people find that word hurtful and it's therefore best not to refer to people using it she was genuinely confused, because she had no idea that was a wrong thing to do.

I can tell the difference between took-another-kid's-toy-and-ran-off-because-genuinely-believed-it-was-a-good-choice and took-a-kid's-toy-and-ran-off-despite-knowing-it-was-a-bad-choice. Perhaps at 4 my kid is incredibly adept to know already that is a bad choice, but she knows it, i know she knows it, and she knows i know she knows it. I don't think it does her any favours for me to go on assuming she didn't get it the last 46 times i explained to her that a thing was wrong/dangerous/unkind simply because she keeps doing it. And yes, she does sometimes do something like that due to poor impulse control, but she generally catches herself again, and either returns the object without being reminded, or does it on the first reminder.

I do not want to train her like a dog (fairly inflammatory phrase to me, but i am assuming you didn't mean it to be). And neither do i spend every second of the day micromanaging everything my DD does and forcing my-idea-of-good decisions on her because "might makes right".

For us (ymmv of course) in a situation like the grabbed kite, returning the kite and redressing the wrong is the first order of business. Any learning/discussion/punishment/whatever-is-going-to-happen-next waits until after that. The wronged party is righted again, as soon and as thoroughly as possible. That is not about shaming anyone, that is about treating others as you would like to be treated. THEN i deal with the situation with my kid. Why? Because i don't think the other child should have to wait and be a part of that process. Because i don't think it's the other kid's responsibility to be patient while *I* parent *my* kid. Because ultimately DD and how DD behaves IS my responsibility until she's old enough to take that responsibility for herself. And because i believe seeing me bring about redress IS teaching her something, even when she's not able or willing to help with it. I really don't care what other parents think of me, i care what *I* think of me.


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

OP here! wow, thank you all sooooooo much for this great discussion! It has helped me tremendously to read your responses and know I'm not the only one dealing with this and trying ti figure it out. Sorry I haven't been able to get back to the thread in a fews days; been busy with the aforementioned 3 kids









I have been thinking a lot about how they model me- for instance if they ask me for something reasonable, and I keep doing what I'm doing and don't respond and they have to ask a couple times. Or I do respond but I don't get it right away. Why should they respond to me any differently? Not that I have to drop everything immediately every time they ask for something, but I'm trying to be more mindful of responding to their requests in a way that I would want them to respond to me.

Also, in listening to them. I am usually so busy and my attention is on so many things at once (often this is necessary, not just my own lack of attention to them, because we do homeschool, so I am with them 24/7 and my dh works long hours. So I don't think it's unreasonable that once in a while I make a phone call, and do housework sometimes and not converse with them continuously!), and they want to talk to me nonstop and have me respond enthusiastically to everything they say, and participate in every thing they're doing. Well, I can't physically do that, but as much as I'm able, I am trying to really focus on what they're saying, look them in the eye, and make my body language attentive. I think of how sometimes my dh is walking around or looking as his computer while I'm talking to him and how it makes me feel- like I'm not being heard, unsatisfied. So I"m trying harder to really have good times of connecting, so when the time comes for them to need to listen to me telling them something important, they are more in a frame of mind to listen.

We even did a listening exercise where each person got to talk about what was bothering them while holding a toy, and no one could interrupt. It really went over well. Of course, lots of vitriol was spewed, but they did seem to appreciate the chance to talk their hearts out.

I love the idea of bedtime talks, too. Or dealing with the situation quickly in the moment, and having more of a discussion later when it's calmer and it may be more of a teachable moment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
They are bright, very persistent children and I am often emotionally exhausted from negotiating nearly every situation and interaction. I sometimes feel like I shot myself in the foot by always explaining things and giving them reasons behind things, because now they refuse to do a lot of things unless there is a detailed, lengthy explanation....and then they still won't do it if they happen to disagree with my reasoning.







. I have to jsut keep my eye on the prize and remind myself I want critically thinking, understandign kids to grow into critically thinking adults and not obedient kids that grow up into unquestioning adults. I should print that out and post it somewhere.

Thank you!!! I totally agree!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I would let them know that you are not giving multiple chances at the park anymore. The first time they don't listen/behave badly with another child you are leaving. I did this with DD all of 3 times at the park when she ran away from me and then she realized that not listening/running away meant the end of fun. Plus, I find that once she starts not listening--it doesn't get any better. Usually it's a signal that nothing good will happen next.

Well, in my original post I didn't even get into my 7 yo- he is awful at playgrounds, and we leave in tears about 90% of the time. His behavior is not usually directed towards the other kids though, he just can't stand his younger brother's presence so he flips out regularly and severely. So that is my usual routine, we leave when he starts to act out, if it can't be solved- he tends to run away when he's upset (and has run into the street or very far away on multiple occasions).

So often to we do take breaks from the park. I just can't handle it. Maybe for a week or so we don't go. And I do let him know why. That it's just no fun to be at a playground fighting.

But then I'm stuck at home with 3 kids, and their behavior is usually so much worse when we're cooped up at home for days on end, and it's not fair to my 4 yo (the kite runner, LOL), and again, a punishment on me b/c then I have to find ways to entertain them all day.

Playdates do usually work out well, so I need to do more of that. They play much better with another kid in the mix, and it's easier to end it if someone isn't able to handle it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
For a while, my DD and I had the "OK Club" where we tried to say OK to each other about as many things as we could all day.


I love this, thank you! I think my 4 yo especially would enjoy this









*karen*- thank you so much for your post, that was so helpful! It is great to hear from other parents with multiple kids how they manage things. I love your idea of family rules- I think I will do that with them this week. I wonder what they will come up with. I really need to hold myself accountable to the rules.

*NellieKatz*-thank you for all of your great ideas, and for giving me a different perspective to consider! You should definitely write some articles!

Ok, park situations from yesterday- WWYD?

4 yo got out bag of freshly homemade cookies to snack on at the park, walked around with it and left it at some random place around the park. I asked him very nicely to help me find it, since we all wanted some and there are aggressive squirrels there who will steal whole bags of food. He said "I don't want to!" and did his usual laughing and running away, begging me to chase him around. Not a severe infraction by any means, but the fact was, I asked him something nicely and he ignored me, and it made me feel so angry. I told him so, with the anger evident in my voice, and he came and helped me. I hate that it came to that over such a small thing.

Then they were throwing their food (snacks again!!!!!! URGH!!!!!!!!) in the stream and watching it go by. I totally see how this was fun for them and not a terrible or bad thing to do. I just didn't want the stream littered with our food or for it to be wasted, and said so nicely, and suggested they use natural items like sticks and leaves to float in the stream. They looked right at me and laughed and kept doing it, until again, I pointed out that I had just made a reasonable request and was feeling pretty sad and angry at being ignored.

So obviously we need to sit down and have snack times and not walk around with them- I got that!! Or not bring any and have very short times at the park! BUT, do you think I'm out of line in my responses or my emotional reactions? I know they were small things and not major instances of willfulness or anything but the deliberate ignoring makes me feel so disrespected!


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I dont think you over-reacted. I like how you handled the cookie thing. I probably would have taken the snacks away that were being thrown in the stream.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

I would have to dole out the food in bits and pieces like you would have to do with a toddler- since that is teh behaviour they are exhibiting. When they are to be trusted not to throw it in a stream or dump it or lose it. I have to say I have a 4yo and a 7yo along with a 9yo and a two year old, and would be absolutely appalled if my children acted in any of this manner. They would have to stay by my side, like my 2yo toddler, since they are not to be trusted to act appropriately. Again, act like a toddler, be treated like a toddler.

I begin when they are toddlers modelling the behavior and manners I absolutely expect and so far it is working. I think your kids need to have firm expectations and firm consequences, no wishy washy-ness. Keep them close to you so that there are no opportunities to steal the kite or run off with it. Be firm with your expectations- snatching is NOT acceptable and we WILL return it to the rightful owner. Put your child in the offended child's shoes. At 4yo that is a concept that he should be able to easily grasp.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

How about going to the park with no snacks and shorter time there? Drastically lower your expectations of having an afternoon there. Instead, just stopping in on the way home from something else now and then--don't make it a dedicated outing.

I know you have babies, so you probably always have some snacks in your bag, but the snack thing seems to be a recurring issue at the park.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Awaken* 
Then they were throwing their food (snacks again!!!!!! URGH!!!!!!!!) in the stream and watching it go by. I totally see how this was fun for them and not a terrible or bad thing to do. I just didn't want the stream littered with our food or for it to be wasted, and said so nicely, and suggested they use natural items like sticks and leaves to float in the stream. They looked right at me and laughed and kept doing it, until again, I pointed out that I had just made a reasonable request and was feeling pretty sad and angry at being ignored.

So obviously we need to sit down and have snack times and not walk around with them- I got that!! Or not bring any and have very short times at the park! BUT, do you think I'm out of line in my responses or my emotional reactions? I know they were small things and not major instances of willfulness or anything but the deliberate ignoring makes me feel so disrespected!


I think that being proactive around this sort of thing is probably your best bet. We have a blanket we took to the park (essentially a big baby blanket) and that was the snack spot. Snack stayed there and was eaten there. Primarily it prevented me worrying about choking when I had two wandering little ones but it also meant that we were less likely to run into the situations you encountered.

I think you may want to think about communicating your expectations in a way that tells your kids what the appropriate response is without resorting to "asking" them which doesn't seem to be working for any of you. I fully believe you can parent gently and respectfully and still provide firm guidelines to kids. For things that I am not willing to negotiate with my kids I usually use the same approach to giving them directions: Expectation, reason, alternative, engagement.

With the cookie scenario I would have said "Bring me the cookies now please (expectations). We'll save the rest for snack. I don't want us to be wasteful with our food or and make a mess here. (reason) You can throw leaves or small sticks in the water instead. (alternative) Which do you think will go down the stream faster - a stick or a leaf?" (engagement) Depending on my energy level and the mood of my kids I might do this in a very playful way or it might be low key and straight forward. I find that the closer I am physically to my kids, the better I am able to make eye contact at their physical level and speak at a lower quieter level, the more likely they will do what I ask. It also makes it easier to engage in the alternative option smoothly.

I think there is a place for discussion and "asking" for certain kinds of behaviour and there are circumstances when it is important for parents to be clear about what the expectation is and how to meet it.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I was going to suggest (already been done by the lovely ladies above!) that the snack stays in a static place and they come to it when they want it, so there is no scope for losing or wasting it. I tend with DD to say "you have to stand still to eat that" at the very least - usually we have a bench or a whole area with a buggy and heap of coats/bags etc. (we're often out with friends who have 3 kids) and we all sit down for a snack together. One parent takes on the responsibility for chasing and removing snacks of those who didn't listen/care to stand still. It is MUCH harder when there aren't at least 2 adults though!

Do you have a good friend with kids you can team up with? I know i find parenting easier (as does my friend with 3) when we're together, because we share tasks. Sure enough it can get crazier with more kids there, BUT the extra adult to help out, vent with and share the tasks with makes a MASSIVE difference to me.

Can i just add, i'm 38weeks PG and the idea of warm homemade cookies is sooooooooo tempting!


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Karen, thank you so much for that practical advice! That is super helpful, esp. coming from a mom of 4!

Bec- yes, sometimes I do have another parent, but because we homeschool usually I'm alone at the park with them during the day. I agree, it's a lot easier to go with a friend to spread the kid managing duties around!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
I have to say I have a 4yo and a 7yo along with a 9yo and a two year old, and would be absolutely appalled if my children acted in any of this manner. They would have to stay by my side, like my 2yo toddler, since they are not to be trusted to act appropriately. Again, act like a toddler, be treated like a toddler.

- snatching is NOT acceptable and we WILL return it to the rightful owner. Put your child in the offended child's shoes. At 4yo that is a concept that he should be able to easily grasp.

Thanks for your thoughts. A practical question- how do you MAKE them stay with you if you're watching multiple kids? They simply walk away and go play. I can't see how it would be physically possible without a leash-type thing and that would be ridiculous on kids this age! Not to mention defeating the purpose of being at a playground.

And how do you MAKE them return something that was snatched if they don't willingly do it, without physically grabbing it yourself?

Even though I need help dealing with some of these scenarios and it's hard sometimes, I don't think their behavior is "appalling"- just normal kids who are learning how to negotiate the world and interpersonal relationships.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
How about going to the park with no snacks and shorter time there? Drastically lower your expectations of having an afternoon there. Instead, just stopping in on the way home from something else now and then--don't make it a dedicated outing.

I know you have babies, so you probably always have some snacks in your bag, but the snack thing seems to be a recurring issue at the park.

Yep, I think I will need to greatly curtail the snacks and park time! We all have fast metabolisms and need to eat every hour or more often (and I've been nursing and/or pregnant for the past 7 yrs), hence the constant eating







I have very long days at home alone with them so we need outdoor recreation - I can't just stay home always, so I keep trying it in hopes things will eventually improve with practice.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Awaken* 
Thanks for your thoughts. A practical question- how do you MAKE them stay with you if you're watching multiple kids? They simply walk away and go play. I can't see how it would be physically possible without a leash-type thing and that would be ridiculous on kids this age! Not to mention defeating the purpose of being at a playground.

And how do you MAKE them return something that was snatched if they don't willingly do it, without physically grabbing it yourself?

I know it wasn't me who said this, but i thought i'd reply...lol

I have always been ueber strict with DD. Obviously she too is now not always listening (so i cannot claim this is the answer!) but i do think things like returning someone else's toys i can "make" her do because since before she could really remember i have made it clear that it's a Cardinal Sin to take something from someone else and my (perhaps in those days OVER)-reaction has meant that she really knows VERY clearly that it's just not acceptable, it never has been, it's not happening. That of course is of very limited use in your situation, but i do think kids learn fast and if you're determined to be strict but calm (at least outwardly) it might take a few weeks but they'll probably learn what their boundaries are. It would be exhausting, but might make a big difference to what happens at the park. I think as well when i'm ready to explode i tell myself that if i do they (whichever kid it is, usually mine of course! But sometimes one of the others) have "won" - yes, it's a REALLY petty thought, but it really helps me to keep my head in the face of it all, and when she/they realise they cannot push me to breaking they soon give up and do as i asked.

Another thing i was thinking, after today, when i was with the friend i mentioned and in 2 separate incidents MY 4yo kicked her 4month old (accidentally) in the face and HER 4yo bit her 2yo very hard on the upper arm, is that the issue between the 7yo and the 4yo (that the 7yo can't stand his brother being around) might be making it worse. I noticed today that my friend is AS horrified and active when HER kids hurt one another as when they hurt other people's kids. I know when i was a kid my mother's attitude seemed to be that if my brother hit a stranger it was a Major Issue, but if he his ME it was One of Those Things. I know that drove a big wedge between us and made me really hate him and thus act up around him for a long time. My mother was very strict so i wouldn't have behaved as you describe your kids acting, but i definitely did subtle things to wreck outings for him/everyone because i felt she wouldn't defend me anyway, so why not ruin it for everyone while i had the chance. Of course all that's probably irrelevant to your situation, but i thought it was worth a mention.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Awaken* 
Karen, thank you so much for that practical advice! That is super helpful, esp. coming from a mom of 4!

Bec- yes, sometimes I do have another parent, but because we homeschool usually I'm alone at the park with them during the day. I agree, it's a lot easier to go with a friend to spread the kid managing duties around!

Thanks for your thoughts. A practical question- how do you MAKE them stay with you if you're watching multiple kids? They simply walk away and go play. I can't see how it would be physically possible without a leash-type thing and that would be ridiculous on kids this age! Not to mention defeating the purpose of being at a playground.

And how do you MAKE them return something that was snatched if they don't willingly do it, without physically grabbing it yourself?

Even though I need help dealing with some of these scenarios and it's hard sometimes, I don't think their behavior is "appalling"- just normal kids who are learning how to negotiate the world and interpersonal relationships.


In our family, those are appalling behaviors- obviously they are not ALWAYS nice to each other- but mutual respect IS EXPECTED AT ALL TIMES. I understand that they may not always want to play together, but I absolutely expect them to be respectful of the others feelings if they don't want to play- it's not ok to kick or hit each other or say they hate each other or other rotten things.

As far as *making* them stay by me, if they aren't exhibiting behavior that warrants independent play, I shadow them. For the most part, my 4, 7, and 9yos are able to play independently without being mean to each other or other children. If they were having a bad day or just plain mean, depending on the situation, they either need to sit with me, if the 2yo is nursing or eating or whatever, or I stick to them and intercept as needed.

For the kite, I would firmly tell them that I expect that they hand it over immediately, if not, I will take it from them. Honestly though, the only child that might even DO that would be my two year old, who I would as well take it from because she doesn't always understand not to snatch, so by returning it to the rightful owner while explaining WHY she can't just snatch things, thereby modelling appropriate behavior. Maybe my expectations of what my kids are capable of are much higher than yours, but I would not think that snatching a toy from a random kid at the park and then running with it and not giving it right back is normal age appropriate behavior and that hopefully I laid appropriate groundwork to avoid that situation ever happening at 4yo. Also my kids are 99% of the time compliant when I ask them to stay next to me and not run off, and I have never once used a kiddie leash. I give them firm expectations and they generally just heed them. My two year old is now in a phase of hitting kids who get in her personal space- as such, she does not get the freedom to play alone if there are other kids in the park. Which means most of the time I am her play buddy no matter where we are. She also dumps her drinks and snacks out, just because- which means I hold her drink for her, and give her one cracker at a time. When she can just eat/drink without feeding the ground, then she can have more freedom with her food and drinks.


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## Jude Rose (Jul 7, 2006)

I have more than one kid, and NellieKatz philosophy rings most true to me. That said, putting it all into action is the hardest yoga, isn't it?









I think in the OP's situation with the snacks, I would simply upgrade the redirect approach and pre-plan the snack destruction time they seem to love. I mean, why are they throwing things into the stream? Why scatter things at all? I usually blame a love of science and wantiing to explore how the world works. I would set up a fun project a day or two ahead of making things that bio-degrade and bring them to the park. You could use a punch-hole in tissue paper and make a ton of holes to throw in. Make a game of who can find the most stones to throw in and compare how they react to the light tissue holes. You know, get creative and get them thinking about the current and cause and effect. That's what they crave, then dig in. They will forget about tossing in expensive snacks, I imagine. Heck, even bring some stale bread to toss in. Fish or birds will like that.
I am not making light of the suck that the kids are dishing out. I'm just showing a lighter way of dealing with it.Good luck!


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