# Is being AP a whole pick and choose whatever you want and do away with the rest?



## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

I know that even Dr. Sears says that being an attatchment parent isnt about "the rules" - safe birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, gentle discipline. I know that he, being a HUGE AP advocate would never tell a person, for example, "oh, you didnt breastfeed so you cant be an attatchment parent". Life isnt that black and white and just because you couldnt breastfeed doesnt mean that you can't still practice all of the other wonderful aspects of attatchment parenting and call yourself an AP mom or dad.

I, myself do believe that being an attatchment parent is about not the rules, but about respecting your child/children and about raising them in a gentle way. A safe birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, and gentle discipline just so happen into that way of thinking and parenting. I also work very hard at all of these things. It doesnt always come "natural" to me and I have to remind myself why I want to raise my son this way.

With this in mind, is it really okay to call yourself AP and not follow "the rules"? Can you breastfeed, babywear and then let your child cio, and spank them and still be considered an Ap'er? I definitely dont think so. But I am finding myself in conact with woman who tell me that they are AP moms and then tell me they do stuff that doesnt go along with the whole gentle approach to AP, like cio, weaning their children at 12 months or younger and spanking.

I dont like to get hung up on lables either. But Im finding that the word "attatchment parenting and AP" are becoming a more mainstream phrase, adn that's good, but they dont really parent like most of the AP moms I know, especially not like the AP moms I know here at MDC.

SO, are you gals finding this in your community? Moms who claim to be AP moms and do stuff like spank, cio, and even use aggressive weaning techniques to wean their 12 month olds? How does this make you feel about being an AP mom yourself? I hate to say it, but I dont want to be associated with moms that parent this way...it makes me upset in fact.

Is being AP a whole pick and choose whatever you want and do away with the rest?

I find it particularily disturbing that the aspects of attatchment that I see mostly disregarded is the gentle disipline aspect. ANd I think it is the MOST important aspect. Eventually, one day, all of our kids will wean, sleep in a separate bed, adn be too big to babywear, but being gentle and respectful in regards to discipline will be there for a long time!

Ive been thinking about this for several weeks so Im sorry if this is too long and jumbled, just had to get my thoughts and feelings out.


----------



## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

well. i think that to label yourself "AP" you should do most of the stuff.. or the majority of the stuff that Sears recommends.

i guess i dont consider myself "AP" because I don't do the majority.

i do feel that i do enough to feel comfortable here.

i think it is fine to pick and choose.

maybe id not label AP, unless a majority of the "rules" are "followed", but ....

i have picked and choosen. personally

PS> CK'smamma. YOu said everything I feel so well. Much better than I did.


----------



## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I think AP is more being in tune with your child and less where your child sleeps (for example). Some children sleep better in their own bed than they do next to you, while others need to be next to mommy in order to sleep. AP is knowing which child you have and giving your child the opportunity to be in the environment that works best for him or her. It's how you approach the issues more than which answer you select.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I've heard this before and I have to say I've never encountered it. Most people I know have not heard of attachment parenting (LLL and AP group folks not included, lol).

It pains me when terms get bandied about so that they lose their meaning. But then I don't feel I have the right to tell a mother "well, you may think you are AP but you aren't". Still, it's hard to wrap your mind around respectful parenting (definitely a hallmark of AP) that includes yelling and spanking.

It would definitely frustrate me, and probably make me less likely to use that term to describe myself if I were surrounded by people who were "perverting the word" (to use my Dad's favorite expression, lol).


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Follow your heart. If your heart is with your children I trust you will do the right thing by them.

AP isn't about the rules rather ap gives you permission to follow your mother's or father's heart.

db


----------



## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pageta_
*I think AP is more being in tune with your child and less where your child sleeps (for example). Some children sleep better in their own bed than they do next to you, while others need to be next to mommy in order to sleep. AP is knowing which child you have and giving your child the opportunity to be in the environment that works best for him or her. It's how you approach the issues more than which answer you select.*
While I agreee with you, I think your example is one of the things that I would agree that you can give or take. I mean, some kids out there probably do sleep better alone and even in a crib. I have one friend that is very upset that her baby prefers her own space instead of their bed. But being such a great mom, she recognizes this and accepts this. This is being respectful of your child.

But how does spanking, cio, and forced early weaning fit into doing what is best for your child? How would these things EVER be best for them?


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

I breastfed DD until she was 19 months, she co-slept until she was 5, I picked her up whenever she wanted and am a sahm but I don't really consider myself AP, probably because DD did get a spanking when we felt it was necessary. The last time she was spanked (and quite frankly the only time I can remember) was when she was 5.

Even though we had talked about it repeatedly and she knew she wasn't supposed to, she ran out into the street. DH spanked her. That was the first and only time he ever laid a hand on her. She never did it again. She is 10 now and to this day when we are walking together she still waits for my signal before crossing the street. So I think in that situation it was best for her. But I don't think that automatically makes us bad or disrespectful parents.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

<typing as fast I can so computer does shtu down before I'm finished!>

There are AP parents, people who think they are AP, or call themselves that, but don't understand what that means, and those who are striving for an ideal. I feel I am in the latter category.

I'm not technically AP because I do spank, yell, and let my toddlers fuss/cry themselves to sleep sometimes. Ideally I would like not to do any of these things. I would like to be a gentle disciplinarian, but it hasn't happened yet. With my first I followed all "the rules" and thought that would make discipline easy, cuz that's what the books siad. It woas a rude awakening to find that wahsnt' true! I've said theis and seen it posted before that AP is easy with babies, but onece they hit about 2.5 or 3 it all goes out the window. it's liek, what do I do now?

Also, I am a single mom, so some things I'm just not capable of. ANd to say that I am selfish, not attached, bad mom, or whatever because I let my toddlers fuss/cry to sleep is short sighted. THey learn to sleep without me not because I value my sleep over their needs, but because I know what my limits are and what will make me snap and that is when I am a bad mommny!

I am trying ot just lead with my head and heart and trust myself to parent my children the best way for us. Torturing myself with doubts, second guessing myself, worrying about traumatizing them wiht every little thing, was making me wishy washy, not confident. I think that was messing with dd's head more than anything. So, yes sometimes I am at my wit's end and I yell or spank, so I am not an attachment parent. But, we are attached and all I can do is keep trying to get better. It's not like it is an exclusive club or something. I do wish though that the books and some parents did not make it sound so easy and such an if then situation, because it is not easy and it is not an if/then kind of hting.

I knew I wanted to breastfeed, and not cio (with little babies), then decided to co-sleep and finally not to spank. Problem was, I was not parented that way, so it did not come naturally and I had no huge thing against my parents' way of doing things to kick off from, so it was much easier to slip back into non gentle stuff when the going got rought. I need more support, more role models and more ideas that actually wokr for my high need spirited gifted kiddo.


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

You know, this reminds me of discussions about who is a Christian and who isn't.
Some say you have to take the bible literally, others say you don't.
Some say you have to adhere rigidly to church dogma, others say you don't.
And everyone gets all bent out of shape about it.

AP isn't a religion. And it isn't something concrete and absolute.
And Dr. Sears isn't even the be-all, end-all of it. He's ONE voice. He's not the Pope.

I don't CARE what other people call themselves.
I don't CARE whether people think I am an "ap" mom or not.

I am just interested in doing what seems best for my kid.
So far, the ideas expressed by Dr. Sears, Elizabeth Pantley, Dr. Gordon and the Kabat-Zinns and others have helped me.

But I am not their disciple.
I am not trying to get into some AP heaven by following all the AP rules.
Just trying to be a good parent.

So, if it makes you all feel better.. I won't call myself AP.
And y'all can call yourselves anything you want.
I won't object.
I'm proud and happy if my son someday calls me a good parent.
That's the only label I will ever need.


----------



## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

If your child wants to be spanked or cio'ed, you can do these things and still be an attachment parents. Otherwise, not.

babywearing, family bed... all these things are done or not done because of the child's preference. breastfeeding can be limited by biological or perhaps even other urgent reasons, but we all agree it's best when it can be done. Same with natural birth.

cio and spanking are inherently abusive, and therefore don't fit the ap philosophy. imo


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Pretty much what asherah said.

I don't understand the obsession with this term. "Is she AP if she does this? Will I still be AP if I do that? How dare she call herself AP if she does this!"

What absolutely kills me is threads like this, and the threads about someone else trying to say that she is AP when clearly, in the eyes of the poster, she is not. I like the AP philosophy as outlined by Dr. Sears. The first time I heard it described, I did not think it applied to me at ALL. The person describing it to me was an idiot. When I actually read about it, I found that it DID apply to me, even though I'd never heard of it before, the main idea being that you are attached to your child and your child is attached to you. The rest are ideas on how to get you there. Being attached to your child and your child being attached to you make an attached parent, not a sling and a bravado nursing bra.

Like asherah said, I don't care how "AP" I am. I only care what my kids think of me as a parent and how I feel about my relationship with them. Pretty good on both fronts. Disecting how AP someone else is or isn't doesn't make sense to me given that the core of the philosophy is that AP isn't about individual parenting techniques, but the overall nature of the relationship between mother and child.

When I see a "Is this person really AP if she does this?" I see a cry for a rally for everyone to bemoan those who aren't REALLY AP and pat each other on the back for being so much more AP than the "mainstream", a term which bugs me to no end.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

From the man that coined the term...

*AP is a tool.* Tools are things you use to complete a job. The better the tools, the easier and the better you can do the job. Notice we use the term "tools" rather than "steps." With tools you can pick and choose which of those fit your personal parent-child relationship. Steps imply that you have to use all the steps to get the job done. Think of attachment parenting as connecting tools, interactions with your infant that help you and your child get connected. Once connected, the whole parent-child relationship (discipline, healthcare, and plain old having fun with your child) becomes more natural and enjoyable. Consider AP a discipline tool. The better you know your child, the more your child trusts you, and the more effective your discipline will be. You will find it easier to discipline your child and your child will be easier to discipline.

http://askdrsears.com/html/10/T130300.asp

I do want to say that Dr. Sears himself admits that this is not a new style. Attachment parenting is a term that decribes a type of parenting that is instinctual and does not just belong to the middle-class white women that make such a big deal about throwing it around to describe themselves and exclude others.


----------



## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i do not consider myself ap, but i do feel comfortable here. we co-sleep, i bottlefed. i have spanked in the past, not something i'm proud of. ap tools are like a twelve step program. take what you can use and leave the rest.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I've always thought of it as a mindset and not a list of rules that need to be followed. AP parents (in my definition) follow their intuition about what is right for the child rather then what some book tells them (Dr. Sears or otherwise!). The idea is to establish a close bonding so that as a parent you can instinctively tell what your baby wants or needs and (provided it's safe and non-harmful) you can accomodate. So rather then feed the baby on a schedule or force sleep on a kid that just may not be tired by CIO - you follow the baby's lead. If your baby wants to co-sleep, you co-sleep, if your baby wants to be carried around in a sling you oblige (or if the baby enjoys the stroller you do that!), if your baby wants to EBF cool - but if s/he wants to wean him/herself at 10 months of age you deal with it and let it happen. That kind of thing.

I don't think that meshes with everyone else's idea but that's always how I describe it!


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm not as "crunchy" as most here, but I'm inclined to agree that someone who spanks or lets thier infant CIO is very unlikely to be an attached parent. _Very_ unlikely. I wouldn't have a problem saying that to someone, either.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

About the spanking, there is a culture within conservative Christian circles in which parents are taught spanking is mandated by the Bible.

I know this firsthand. To my shame I spanked my children because of these teachings but they didn't ever sit well with me. I have always been ap in my parenting (co-sleeping, breastfeeding, responding to crying) and the more I explored written ap thought the more my own inner voice was validated.

Eventually I stopped spanking my children in spite of the enormous pressure to spank. It has been harder to get my husband onboard, he was resistant for a long time and now he has come around as well.

So please be gentle with spanking ap'ers they may need time to get the overwhelming prospanking culture out of their systems.

Debra Baker


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Spanking is one area where I have a hard time being gentle. When a parent is spanking, a child is actively being abused. I don't see any other way to put it. Spanking is also the one thing that would indicate to me that there is not an attached relationship between the parent and child.

I think there are few areas in parenting where outrage is warranted, and spanking is one of them. Definitely. There HAS to be outrage and intolerance of spanking in order for it to stop immediately. I think that it should come with other things, too, such as tools to help the parent who feels that he or she "must" spank lest they spoil their child.

http://www.nospank.net/

Here is one.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

You can be firm and resolute in your beliefs while being gentle.

There is a growing body of literature directed toward the Christan parent that counters the mistaken notion that the Bible mandates spanking.

I had no one in my real life to help me, I did this on my own. I would have appriciated a real-life friend to help me.

DB


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I know, which is why I'm working on it. I know that by completely freaking out on someone who does spank, I'm being selfish in that I'm using the opportunity to express my own rage, rather than helping both the parent and child by doing what I can to help the parent see why spanking is unacceptable on so, so many levels. I think a lot of activists, in pretty much any area, have the same problem.

I think the outrage that many of us feel regarding spanking is necessary in dealing with the societal practice of spanking, not in dealing with the individual. I didn't make that clear because I wasn't even sure what I meant.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I came across Ap all on my own. It was weird, I was always holding my dd, she slept with us, I ebf, and we used/use GD all because it felt best to us. It wasn't until I had my ds#1 that I even knew there was such a thing as AP. I think it is more about being respectful of your child, like going with the flow of what they want. Like all of my kids have LOVED sleeping with dh and I LOL ) BUT if anyone of them seemed they needed to sleep alone, then they would have been able to.
I like the "tool" idea. Instead of the step idea. I mean steps are like what you use to put something together, if you miss astep the whole thing doesn't work right, BUT sometimes you can use a different tool and still get the job done.
It is more about knowing your child enough, being attached, so that you both can work together, and "you" as the parent can find what works best for your child. And what works for one child in your family may not work for the others. But if you know your child you know what works and can do it. So being "attached" at a young age... ie doing some of the "typical" attachement parent stuff when they are babies gets you close to your baby and you get to know them better. That isn't to say that if you didn't "AP" when they where a baby you are a lost cause or anything. It is about learning from your child. A child centered approach. I think for some people that whole idea rubs them the wrong way (like my mom!:LOL ) Finding out what your child needs and being gentel (sp) with them. Helping the child find out what they need, helping them find their voice.
It sure isn't easy because I think so many of us where not raised that way. And to go against our up bringing can really be hard. My folks hit and yelled alot when I was growing up and don't see the point in "working" things thru with my kids. And honestly some days, I just wanna SCREAM (and I have in the past I have been working on that a lot). BUT anyway I am rambling alot here sorry.
I hope what I said made some since...









H


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

nevermind


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

FWIW, I don't consider spanking a parenting tool. I consider it an outward cry for help from the parent's child within. Some are doing ten times better than how they were treated, but are still not at the point where they can control themselves and overcome their inner demons. I honestly believe that spanking is the last resort of a parent who has run out of resources and support and good information. As a famous horse trainer once said "Violence begins where knowledge ends".

It's not something to villify parents about (as much as it raises my hackles to see it), but I also think nobody can really say that it's just "one tool". I don't think it's a tool, I think it's a symptom of inner conflict and lack of self-control on the part of the parent (and I don't mean that in a "you should be able to control yourself" way, but in a "you don't have the support, resources, you need" sort of way).

btw, asherah, great post! I, too, was reminded of the whole "you think you're christian but you're not" stuff that goes on amongst the various christian faiths.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

You obviously did not read the rest of my posts on the issue. It IS judgemental of me, which I already acknowledged.

Ack, I read the first paragraph above Piglet's post and it appeared to be part of her post, which really didn't make sense.

With that in mind, I'll type out a whole new post.


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

OT:

Wheee Piglet68 agrees with me about something! Whoo hoo!

(I am affectionately TEASING here)


----------



## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Can you spank and be AP? There was a huge debate about this years ago on an AOL forum after an article was written on Bella Online. I posted this article on another thread and it was pulled. So If you want to read it, I will mail it to you. I am not an advocate for spanking, but I sure am not the militant I once was about not spanking I once was.

That being said. I think you can be AP and spank and even allow a baby to CIO.
For some people spanking is a part of their religious beliefs. I know moms who sling, homebirth, breastfeed, cosleep, cloth diaper -- and are very intune with their children and spank.

I adopted a child with FAE and had SID. I let him cry it out. I really dont care about the judgement anymore, but when you have a child that cried 4-6 hours straight per day, you can only hold them so long, sling them so long, until you are a basket case. Once my son was allowed to lay in his crib (something I never used before) and cry, he would calm and sleep. He never was interested in cosleeping and he never calmed when I held him. Luckily I had this wonderful mom, that most people on this forum would despise because she is not AP at all and walks into the hospital begging for an epidural, would come to my house and take this crying baby to her house so I could have some peace. She would even let him stay there all night when she knew I would go without sleep for days and get really depressed. I still considered myself AP. It was difficult parenting this child based on "AP" rules and norms -- and still is.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Forget it.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

A parent who spanks is not, at the time of the spanking, attached to her child. I can't see how that is even part of an attached relationship. Spanking is hitting, and hitting is abuse. Every. single. time. Hitting is not part of a loving, trusting relationship.
I understand that using the word "abuse" causes a lot of people to just tune out, but I can't sugarcoat it. Doing so, to me, invalidates the fact that a child has been hit by someone she trusts. I won't invalidate the experience of a child who has been abused in order to make the parent feel better about it.

I don't think that every parent who has ever spanked is a bad parent. I think that a parent who spanks is a parent who doesn't have a better way of coping. There are ALWAYS better ways of coping, and I don't expect everyone to automatically know what those are. As it has been pointed out, many people are raised in a home where spanking is the ONLY option. We learn by example.

There are legions of parents who have parented quite well without resorting to hitting, and even more who have, with help, found other ways to deal with what is perceived as misbehavior. Spanking is about the parent's frustrations, not the child's actions. The victim can never be held responsible for the actions of the abuser. There cannot be mutual respect and love when one party believes that he or she has a right to inflict physical pain on another for reasons that are often not clear to the person being hurt.

Again, I know that seeing the words "abuse" and "victim" get a rise out of people, but I think we have to stop stepping so lightly around this issue. It doesn't have to be about villifying the parent who is hitting, it is about protecting the child who is being hit.

In addition to the other site, this one also has good ideas for ways to discipline your child without spanking.

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org...r/further.html


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Cross-post-- Just to clarify-- I do not feel that my stance against spanking, and believing that it is wrong in any situation and is never acceptable is judgemental. I will never be tolerant of abuse, and I believe that spanking is abuse. I'll go so far as to say that I know it is. I realize that my initial reaction to people who say that they spank is where my problem lies. I have to be better at understanding why someone would spank, because it is a concept that is completely foreign to me. My mind always goes to the child. Spanking doesn't stop with the children, though, it stops with the parent.


----------



## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I do believe that you can spank and still be attatched to your child.. So that is out there.. Not clouding anyone's judgement or trying to misrepresent anything..

If AP is all about gentle disipline why is the a seperate forum for it here?? Not that we are the be all and end of of AP forums..

Spanking IS a discipline tool.. Is it the best on?? No, but sometimes it works..

You can use a knife for a screwdriver.. You can use a wrench for a hammer sometimes.. Are they the best tools for the job?? No, but sometimes they are all you have to get you there...

Sometimes spanking is what you do until you get another tool to help you..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Attached, perhaps. But in a positive way? I guess that depends on how you view the ideal parent/child relationship. If you think that a good parent/child relationship involves the child being afraid of the parent or understanding that the parent has the right to physically harm the child, I can see why you would think that.

Hearing spanking, hitting described as a "discipline tool" chills me. Sure, it is a tool. Just like emotional manipulation and mind control can be a tool. It doesn't make it acceptable on any level.


----------



## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

I think pynkie said it best. and i also said i don't consider myself AP. but i feel comfortalble here. and what does it mean when you are spanking you are not at that time attached? so, when i spank i'm detatched. all of a sudden i've lost touch with who my child is? sometimes you guys are so literal.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm curious as to why some of you spank instead of looking for other ways to cope with your kids. Another thread, perhaps?


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Bear in mind, I am against spanking.

It is abusive at some level and doesn't even work in the longterm.

I've done a lot of research in this area and am completely against the practice.

Ironically the Bible doesn't mandate spanking and, in light of other gentle teachings, I would even say there would be an inclination against physical violence but the Bible is silent to the particulars but speaks gentleness philosophicaly.

But I think we need to approach others gently. I know Christian AP parents who do spank. I don't agree with them but they love their children, breastfeed, co-sleep, respond to cries but have been deceived into thinking they must spank to be good Christian parents.

As frustrated and downright enraged we can become over this issue think about how grieved G-d must be to have children suffer in His name!!

Debra Baker


----------



## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I do not ID as "AP".. I don't think I'm particularly "mainstream" either.. I am simply the mother of my children.. For good or bad at times, that is all I can be.. Me.. A mother to 3 boys..

The boys do at times get spanked.. There I admit it.. Ban this Sr.Member who is trying to be the best mother she can be.. I also admit that it isn't the best way to deal with issues.. I am working on finding better tools.. I am working on it every day.. Sometimes though, I've tried all the tools I have that are newly acquired and they just aren't working.. Sometimes the spanking works were nothing else is..

Sometimes even with new tools, you need to find even better ones.. Sometimes you grab the wrong tool out of the box and use it anyway.. I don't need a lecture.. I need support to know.. I am working on it.. I am getting better..

Parenting for me is a new growth experience.. I am learning.. I am working on being a better parent everyday.. I am working on new solutions.. I am working on getting better tools.. I am working on not spanking.. NOT because I believe it is abusive, just because I believe it isn't the best tool to use...

You can kil a fly with a swatter or a sledge hammer.. Both get the job done.. One does have greater impact.. I'm trying to find a flyswatter for the times that I need one..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan


----------



## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Pynki-

I would never ban you!









I consider myself a mainstream Ap mom. I have made certain decisions and I stick with those.

I spent last night on the couch with Goo because she has insomnia and DH needed sleep. Neither of us could let the poor girl go alone in her room just because she couldn't sleep and we needed to.

But, I am trying to figure out how to bottle fed when I give birth to Moo in a couple of months.
There, I don't breast feed.

I think the key of AP is respecting your child. Yes, even the best of us can grab the wrong tool and sometimes, it feels like it is the only tool in the box. I have twice this week had to tell DH to take Goo because I was ready to toss her out the window. Luckily, I have support with my DH and he holds me up when I reach into the tool box and vice versa.

To get back to the original question, treating your child like a person, not a posession is the key to AP in my mind.


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I was spanked as a child. My mom was trying the best she could, under the circumstances she was in. However, even though we were very close (attached) I still remember those times I was spanked and I ask myself: Why?

Actually, because we were close I think it hurt even more (not physically, but emotionally). Now I'm committed to not spanking my child. I will use time-out and remove privileges as a last resort.

I find now that I'm a mom actually harder to relate to my mom and more distant, instead of closer. I look at her a whole new way now. I thought there was no other alternative [to spanking]. She made me feel that way and told me so in the past. But now that I see more clearly I know 1) that I behaved very well as a child and 2) I think as a result of spanking I still (at 27) lack discipline when it comes to organization (my parents were very neat) and other things because it was forced upon me rather than instilled in me.

After reading all this you guys probably think: Uh oh, she needs therapy! But actually I have no hard feelings, I'm just worried about being a gentle disciplinarian (since I have no role model to go by) and about sticking to my commitment. It's very important to me. I'll be lurking in this area for a long, long time









And I guess I use AP in my parenting (I had an unmedicated natural birth, bf on cue, co-sleep, do not CIO and believe in gentle discipline).


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

How is spanking *not* abuse? I assume that when we are talking about spanking, we are talking about an adult hitting a child in a situation that is not self-defense and in which the child cannot defend herself. We call it abuse when one adult hits another adult, why is it somehow acceptable, or not abuse, when the person being struck is a child?


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I was also someone who was spanked. I think what I got out of it was that I feared my parents. I behaved because I was scared, not because I was trying to please them, or doing it because it was right, I just didn't want to get hit.

Like I said up above I was a yeller. And one day after reading a book about anger managment, I asked my dd if I scared her, if she was scared of me.... she said yes. I was shocked. (I know that sounds weird, but I just spaced out that she might me terrified of me yelling) So I decided I had to stop. I want my kids to do what is right for the right reasons NOT because they fear me.
Sometimes when I feel like I am going to loose it, I leave the room: go to the bathroom, go outin the back yard. I cry I scream at the moon, whatever. Sometimes the "tools" of parenting are the ones you use on yourself. I journal my feelings at the end of the day. When I write out what I think my kids where doing to "get me" riled up, I laugh. Where they really trying to drive me crazy? No. They are just acting like kids.
I have made the choice to NOT do something. I understand now more than ever, that what I do as a parent truly effects how my kids see themselves. Yes, mom can loose it, but mom is learning to deal with that. Example: We where having a particularly stessful day. dd was on the computer and something happened to what she was writing... so she is freaking out, crying, yelling. My older son was in the carport skateboarding, and wanted to come in. BUT ds#2 was trying to get out... ds#1 acidentally hit ds#2 in the head with his skateboard. So ds#1 is upset cuz he knocked his brother in the head and ds#2 is crying cuz he got hit, dd is still freaking in the office. I try to get the boys settled, but ds#2 will not be consolded. I go to help dd with the problem, but somehow make it worse. I am about to loose it. Everyone is yelling or crying or both. I finally just snap.. I yelled for everyone to just cut it OUT!!! And then I started crying. They all stopped and stared at me. I was sitting on my bed, head in my hands jsut sobbing like a baby. I was thinking just get me out of here! They are making me crazy. The kids all got on the bed with me, we all talked I appologized for yelling, they appolgized for freaking out. and we just held each other for like 10 minutes.
I could have gone nuts... I felt like I was. The day had started out bad and was just getting worse. I could have been like my mom, she would have spaked us all and probably yelled alot more. But I want to use better parenting than that. Itry really hard to find ways that work better for my family, that are non-violent. Sometimes the "new tools" take a while to work, it has taken YEARS for me to put to use all I have learned, and anytime something new/better comes up I try to incoperate it in. Being a parent is a learning/growing experience... but it doesn't have to be a painful one.
Anytime I think about just swatting their butts or screaming like a mad woman, I try for just a split second to think how I would feel if that was happening to me. What if I was hungry, tired, whatever and I was getting crabby/sassy/demanding, would I like to be hit, yelled at or demeaned because of how I was feeling? 99% of the time I answer NO to that. and 100% of the time I say no to being hit.
Hitting is easy, I know form being hit and dealing with people I care so much about being hitters. My niece hits her kids (said her church said it was the right thing to do) and a month or so ago we where visiting her and her youngest was crying about something... I think she wanted another tic-tac... and my niece had had it, she told her she could either stop crying and be a pretty girl or she could get the woodenspoon and she could get a spanking. I felt sick. The girl shut up, but I thought... there had to be a better way. How would I have delt with it? I don't know. Maybe talked with the child, maybe I would have given them a nother tic-tac before it even became an issue.... I couldn't/can't say. It is just.. no matter how you justify it how you slice it whatever hitting hurts, not just physically but mentally/emotionally the child and the parent.
It is most important to be there for people who are trying to break the cycle of violence, I totally belive that. To understand that being judgemental doesn't make people open up it clams them up. Book ideas, websites, support groups whatever it take to stop the hitting.

H


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

No, outrage, lectures, calling people abusive, asking why they don't try something else, saying you can only see it from the child's point of view is definitely not helpful. I do try lots of things. Over and over and over. I worry myself sick. I stay up all night thinking. I read Dr. Sears, Barbara Colorosa, Kabat Zinn, Kurchinka Sheedy, etc. etc. I come here. I take Love and Logic seminars. If I resort to spanking it is because I am drowning. Parents need support, not criticism. Just like the children.

I am not abusive, nor am I detached from my children. I love them more than anything. I had them on my own from wanting them so much. They are wanted, loved, cared about. I want the best for them. I want people to like them. Sometimes they are not very likeable. I just wish I could hear how wonderful they are and what a good job I am doing and offered some *helpful* suggestions when things are not going so well.

And that whole thing about how co-sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing, getting connected, in tune etc. makes discipline easier is a crock. Disciplining dd1 is the *hardest* thing I have *ever* done in my life, giving birth included!


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Foo - must be something in the air...DD was up from midnight to four am last night. ugh.

It's really hard to criticize a technique or a particular practice without everybody who uses or has used it getting all defensive. Don't we have a 10 page thread about this somewhere?









Spanking doens't work, it's a band-aid. And maybe, in that moment, that is what the parent was faced with as an only solution. But I doubt anybody here who spanks/spanked thinks it's a great tool - I'm sure if they could they would do without it.

I don't judge or villify parents who spank. It *is* hard not to get upset, because spanking is really just wrong from the child's POV. But it also isn't some kind of moral judgement on the parent, either. As I said above, and as Sofiamomma has pointed out so clearly, sometimes it's all that is left to a parent lacking the resources to cope. That is nothing to be ashamed of, or to be mean about. But let's all acknowledge spanking as what it is: the last or desperate act of a parent who has come to the end of their rope.

And please....let's not insult true faith by claiming that spanking is a "part of religion". It's a perversion that doesn't belong in any faith that claims to be founded on love. That some people have twisted things to make it that way shouldn't warrent giving it that much credit!

asherah: LOL


----------



## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*Attached, perhaps. But in a positive way? I guess that depends on how you view the ideal parent/child relationship. If you think that a good parent/child relationship involves the child being afraid of the parent or understanding that the parent has the right to physically harm the child, I can see why you would think that.

Hearing spanking, hitting described as a "discipline tool" chills me. Sure, it is a tool. Just like emotional manipulation and mind control can be a tool. It doesn't make it acceptable on any level.*
Are you just trying to be inflammatory and judgemental?

Do you believe that is the best way to speak about other mothers or convince them?

I can assure you it doesnt work.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

My problem used to be yelling. My parents didn't hit, but they yelled. I can remember being a kid and just being humiliated when they would yell at us. I hated it. When my oldest got to be about three, I started hearing my mother's voice coming out of my mouth. One day it just stopped me cold. I had to work really, really hard at it. I feel like my behavior was unexcusable. I still don't excuse it, but I have stopped. It still creeps up on me sometimes. I'll start to feel myself tense up and I can tell by the look in my kids' eyes that I'm getting close to losing it. Sometimes I'll go scream in the pillow or just go in the bathroom and shut the door. Or whisper. I will whisper what I feel like yelling. It has gotten easier with time. If I do yell, I apologize immediately and let my kid know that there is nothing that they can do that makes it okay for them to yell at them.

I basically try to be the parent that I wish I'd had. Not that my parents were horrible, but my childhood was not exactly happy. Some things my parents had no control over, and some things they could have done differently to make things more bearable for us. Not yelling would have been a big one. I remember being jealous of my friends that were spanked because after they were spanked, their parents loved all over them. Guilt, I guess.

I think that the first step in breaking the cycle of violence is realizing that spanking IS violent. I totally commend anyone who used to spank and then stopped. Your story really touched me, mamaofthree. You can't go wrong when you are being honest with yourself. I know that it is much easier for me not to spank because I wasn't spanked as a child. But I remember how hard I struggled when I decided that I wasn't going to raise my voice anymore. It is still hard sometimes.

I'm not going to say that spanking is not abuse to make people who do it feel better. I've been hit as a child (not by my parents, a babysitter used to hit me), and I've been a frustrated parent. Both suck, but being hit sucks a hell of a lot more than being a frustrated parent. Feeling like you have no control and actually having no control are two different things.

I also stand by my assertation that there must be public outrage against spanking as a practice. I'm learning to divorce that outrage from the actual person spanking. It doesn't do anyone any good, especially the children who are being spanked, to say that this is okay sometimes or that hitting children is not abuse.

I'm not saying what I want to say clearly. I know that I sound awful right now. I'll think about how to stop sounding like such a judgemental bitch, which I know I do. I really, really do understand that being a parent is really hard sometimes, I just don't think it justifies hitting a defenseless child. I guess I don't know how to say that without offending someone.


----------



## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm replying to this without reading other responses, but I am BUSTING to say this LOL

I think we can identify with a label and be identified by a label by someone else. Obviously when we do the first, we include not only our actions but our motivations and beliefs, values etc.

If a sociologist spied on me, they'd have no trouble classifying me as AP id that's a terminology they'd want to use.

I was drawn to AP ideas, and learnt about things I may not have really considered, like slinging, that are now an integral part of our life. Some people may consider this "following rules" but it doesn't feel like that. I dare say if she'd slept in the bassinette beside the bed all nigth they'd have been no cosleeping, despite what I'd read. Because of what I'd read, I didn't see her "failure" to do that as as a problem, and had a ready easy "solution" anyway. So now I look at our lifestyle and see that describing ourselves as AP is quite accurate.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, if a formula feeding, crib using mum identifies herself to me as AP, I'm taking her word on it. But by simple observation, I'd assume (incorrectly) she wasn't. Similarily, I'd assume someone who is breastfeeding and cosleeping was AP and they might have never heard the term and may think their child is taking terrible liberties with them







It's just what brains do - catergorise on the informaton that is available, and reclassify if more information becomes available.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*No, outrage, lectures, calling people abusive, asking why they don't try something else, saying you can only see it from the child's point of view is definitely not helpful. I do try lots of things. Over and over and over. I worry myself sick. I stay up all night thinking. I read Dr. Sears, Barbara Colorosa, Kabat Zinn, Kurchinka Sheedy, etc. etc. I come here. I take Love and Logic seminars. If I resort to spanking it is because I am drowning. Parents need support, not criticism. Just like the children.

I am not abusive, nor am I detached from my children. I love them more than anything. I had them on my own from wanting them so much. They are wanted, loved, cared about. I want the best for them. I want people to like them. Sometimes they are not very likeable. I just wish I could hear how wonderful they are and what a good job I am doing and offered some *helpful* suggestions when things are not going so well.

And that whole thing about how co-sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing, getting connected, in tune etc. makes discipline easier is a crock. Disciplining dd1 is the *hardest* thing I have *ever* done in my life, giving birth included!*
I can relate to your post so much and I totally agree. Disciplining my dd ( 7) is the hardest thing I have ever done for sure. I most definitely relate to that!! I shouldn't have deleted my previous post but I thought this thread was going to go in a direction I wasn't willing to go to. I rarely put myself out there and the judgement was just something I didn't feel like being a part of. I have enough stress right now w/o people saying I am abusing my kids.

Mothra, I know you are very passionate about this and I respect (and admire it too) that however I feel utterly disrespected and judged by you.
All I can say is I KNOW I am doing the best I can right now and I am always working on being a better mother. I KNOW that I love my kids and for the most part I am a pretty good mom.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Pynki_
*Spanking IS a discipline tool.. Is it the best on?? No, but sometimes it works..

*
Need to pop in here for a moment. Spanking is not a discipline tool, it is a punishment. I know this sounds like rhetoric, but it's important rhetoric.

Punishment is a punitive (duh!) reaction to a child's behavior. Discipline is an ongoing, pro-active solution to challenges and gentle discipline should be pro-active and respectful.

I have been hanging out on the GD boards for a long time and I have to say this: the women there have always been extremely respectful of women who post there saying, "I have spanked and I want to change". They have been more than encouraging with women who want to stop yelling and humiliating. I rarely have seen anyone ever get condescending or judgmental when someone comes to GD looking for real advice and support.

I think, in short, they practice what they preach.

And pamelamama is the coolest!









And ITA with Piglet's responses.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sheacoby-- I understand that you, personally, feel judged by me. I understand that my words relayed that to you, and I'm sorry. Genuinely, truly sorry. I'm working on being able to judge the act of spanking and not the person who spanks. I don't think you are a bad parent. It sounds like you have a rough time of it and you use what is available to you, which sometimes is spanking. I only hope that you will read the links I posted and find a way to stop doing it. The fact that you are willing to put yourself out there like that shows that you do care and I really feel like you understand that spanking isn't the way to go.

I'm coming from a place of someone who was abused as a child, by someone who was not her parent, and someone who has worked with abused children as an adult. (I never, ever talk about that. I don't even think my husband knows about it.) I've seen kids who came from loving homes where spanking was used only in extreme cases, but it went wrong. The parent lost control, the kid moved the wrong way while being hit, or a kid who was just a bit more fragile than the parent thought. It is something that is very, very difficult for me to deal with and I need to be more understanding of the people who feel like spanking is the only option in order to help them see that it is not.


----------



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I think "being AP" is listening to your child's cues and encouraging healthy communication through positive parenting.

I've tried CIO before. However, I know it is not the highest choice. I am an APer at heart, and I would never deny that CIO is wrong. I spanked once; again, I have no qualms admitting I was wrong. I lost control. No excuses from me!

People are either AP at heart......... or not. Being truly AP is about growing up with your children. No matter what your age. You can see every weakness you have mirrored in your children... some people deny this or see everything as a control issue; others recognize it and try to learn and love and grow with and through their children. IMO, that's an AP parent.... someone who is respectful of their children's needs and aren't afraid to grow and change and learn right along side their kids. I truly believe that that is the most loving gift - and the most valuable life lesson - one can give their children.


----------



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, one more thing









I think AP also encompasses the idea that you behave in a respectful, compassionate way so that your children will have a healthy, loving role model as they grow. If you don't want your kids to hit, don't hit them. If you want them to communicate positively and openly, don't scream and yell at your spouse all the time. If you want them to be compassionate toward others, don't leave them to scream themselves to sleep every night................ etc. etc. etc.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Mothra, thank you for trying to understand! I meant to thank you for the link, some of the ones on there I have been to. I have so much positive/gentle discipline stuff printed out, I try to read my print outs often. I know spanking is wrong, yelling too. I have never doubted that. I struggle every day with my inner *demons* and I hope to conquer them one day (hopefully sooner than later). I hope one day my daughter and I can discuss when I USED to spank and yell. I do have very open discussions with her about my short comings as a parent. I don't want her to think it's her fault at all. I know that may seem odd and maybe hypocritical but I try to be as open as I can with my kids. I also apologize to her.

edited for typo


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*I remember being jealous of my friends that were spanked because after they were spanked, their parents loved all over them. Guilt, I guess.*
Hmmm, there's a judgemental assumption if I ever saw one. After my daughter got spanked she got "loved all over", not because of guilt but to let her know that even though she had done something unacceptable that we felt required punishment she was very much loved.

And people who keep saying spanking doesn't ever work are completely discounting the experience I posted about. Do I believe children should be spanked for being crabby/irritable/feisty/etc...? Not at all. Spanking was used in our home as a very last resort for very serious offenses. I could probably count on one hand the times she got a spanking.

And if it went wrong or parents lost control and harmed the child that IS abusive. DD was never ever ever hit hard enough to where it would cause any injury. I didn't want to hurt her, just wanted to get her attention and let her know what she had done was COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Did it teach her to hit or be aggressive? Nope. In fact, my nephew had a problem with hitting her and when she'd tell my sister my sister would say "Well hit him back". DD absolutely refused.

Did it make her non-compassionate? Nope, not that either. Her teachers have always commented on how she was very empathetic and compassionate to the other children. Her kinder teacher told me that if another child got hurt DD was the first one to try to comfort them.

DD is 10 now and is an awesome kid. She's funny, feisty, opinionated, smart, creative, environmentally conscious AND well-behaved. Would she have turned out this way if I hadn't spanked? Maybe, but then again maybe not. But I did and I don't regret it a bit. I'm thrilled at the beautiful person she has become and wouldn't change a thing.

And as far as the comments about it being abusive, well, that's strictly a matter of opinion. I am a childcare provider and have taken classes and completed modules on recognizing and preventing child abuse, as I am a mandatory reporter. In this country an open handed swat on a clothed bottom is NOT legally considered abuse.


----------



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

What does this have to do with the original post?









You spanked. Hooray. Here's your medal







:


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

I was replying to a couple of the other posts. Not the original one. But thanks for the sarcasm. Always appreciate that.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Oh, and one more thing, simonee, love ya, but come on, if being a parent is doing only what my kids want, then why do they need a parent at all? (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist, this is in no way intended to justify spanking or CIO).

Also, I don't consider what I do with my toddlers CIO. It is outlined in Sears' Baby Book in fact. I have not ever and will not ever let my babies scream themselves to sleep. But, both my girls hit a phase where they thought that Mama should sleep with them all night and that was not working for me. I parent the baby to sleep and if she wakes up before I go to bed I try to just give her a hug and some back patting and put her back down to see if she will settle. Sometimes she fusses or cries a little while settling. Other times she sits bolt upright and cries like her heart is breaking holding her arms up to me. To me that means she needs me so of course I take care of her, nurse, snuggle etc. But if she is waking every half hour for some company, I can't do that. I let her know she is loved and she is okay with Mama in the next room and if she is obviously settling I let her fuss or cry a little.

As far as the spanking I agree with pretty much everything that Piglet and Sheacoby, and Pynki, Candiland have said. Sorry if I forgot everybody on that wavelength. I even agree with some of what Mothra has said, but I am not abusive and that is just plain old not helpful, inflammatory, even.

I try soooo hard with my older child. She just completely stymies me so often. Once, in the airport she was totally out of control and nothing was working, explaining, naming feelings, sympathizing, distracting, feeding her, etc. etc. I was near panic with being all alone trying to manage her and the plane change and the luggage, make the connection and so on. So I spanked her. I didn't know what else to do! And it worked. It was like a lightning rod that focused all her energy that was just everywhere and she was able to get control of herself and listen to me after that. I also yell when I have asked and given choices and used all my Love and Logic ideas and she is still ignoring me. I just lose it. I don't know how to get her to listen to me. She so often acts like she thinks I don't know anything and she knows better than me. She listens when I yell. I have posted on these boards several times for help with stuff like this and they are almost always ignored. Sometimes commiseration and sometimes suggestions of things I have already tried.

I think if you want to come to my house and watch us interact and tell me what you think is going on between us and what I could do differently that might be truly helpful. But there is no way to tell what is going on over the internet, kwim?


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LoveBeads_
*I have been hanging out on the GD boards for a long time and I have to say this: the women there have always been extremely respectful of women who post there saying, "I have spanked and I want to change". They have been more than encouraging with women who want to stop yelling and humiliating. I rarely have seen anyone ever get condescending or judgmental when someone comes to GD looking for real advice and support.*
I have to agree. Spanking is most definitely a No-No in GD, and yet I've never seen anybody get flamed (well, except a few trolls). People are very supportive there.

I'm sure each and every one of us has aspects of our parenting that we work on all the time. I'm lucky in that spanking is never a problem for me. Even though I was spanked as a child, I have never been in a situation where I've come close to spanking my child. My problem is "ranting" (my DH calls it yelling but he's never heard me really yell, lol). I tend to "go off" (and as someone else here said - I hear my mothers voice coming out of me and it freaks me out!) on my DH and there have been a few occasions where I've done this right in front of DD. I hate myself for that. I work on it alot. Most of the time I'm good about it. But I know how hard it is, and how you can be _right in the middle of doing it_ while this voice in your head is screaming "shut up! stop it!". It's not easy.

But I still know it is wrong. And yeah, I think in that moment I *am* detached from DD b/c I am not truly putting her in my mind first, I'm just running on autopilot and too absorbed in my own "moment"...if that makes any sense!


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Piglet (and others who have said something similar) I agree that we are all always working on something and it is different for differnt people what those issues are. I think one of the main things about being a parent is that you grow right along with your children.

I think that being outraged about something is a stage in a process toward changing it. I just want to say,though, that the history of child rearing is so horrifying, that I can barely take saying spanking is abusive seriously. Children are still beaten, tortured, starved, made to work in horrendous conditions, burned, used, and even killed. Female circumcision is still the norm in some cultures. Changing the collective consciousness is a slow process. It is only recently (in the grand scheme of things) that the things I listed above have begun to be considered wrong by the majority of people. People do consider spanking a discipline tool. A *lot* of people do. It has been the norm. It has only been, what?, the last 30 years or so that not spanking has started to become the norm? It's going to take awhile.

My grandfather was beaten within an inch of his life on a regular basis. He was one of eleven children. The value placed on children was different back then. My father was thrown down and kicked repeatedly, among other things. My mom's mother was emotionally abusive. She had her moments as my mother. There is just no way I can call my parents abusive because they spanked. They did worlds better than their own parents, who did far better than theirs. My parents were strict disciplinarians who used spanking, grounding, taking away privileges, etc. They wanted to be good parents and raise us to be good people. They were doing the best they knew how. They lost it sometimes and made mistakes. They are human.

When I was pregnant I planned to spank. I planned to parent pretty much how I was parented, with a few differences. For instance I was going to spank only for danger situations. My mom EBF and tried to have a homebirth, so I was on the right track already with that. I was apprenticing as a midwife at the time, so that came naturally. I learned about co-sleeping and researched that, decided to do it. Freaked my poor mom out. She was sure I would roll over on and suffocate her grandchild! I had more conversations with AP and NFL folks and did more reading and research. I decided not to vax and not to spank. The problem was that I did not have much to replace it with. And when what I did have didn't work I was left high and dry. I was also left with a "spoiled brat", that people did not like to be around. Depending on who you talked to I was either too harsh or not strict enough.

And no one can seem to tell me where things went wrong. If I had a natural, unmedicated, homebirth, breastfed on demand until she was 3, co-slept, baby wore, was responsive to her needs, did not spank, did not use a stroller or carry her around in a bucket, got attached and connected, then why was discipline not easy? Why does she not listen? Why is she so argumentative? uncooperative?

She kept asking me if spraying the air freshener directly in her nose would work better than spraying it in the air. I kept answering her that that was not how it worked and that that was not a good idea. The stuff in the air freshener would be bad for the inside of her nose. Then one day I hear her screaming in pain in the bathroom (while the baby is screaming on the changing table, of course







: ). She has sprayed the air freshener in her nose and gotten it in her eyes. Of course, it stings terribly because it is alcohol based. My dad hears her screaming and comes up to help. He helps her rinse out her eyes. Talk about natural consequences. But see, why doesn't she believe me when I tell her stuff? How can I discipline a child who thinks I know diddly squat? And that she was born knowing everything?


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sofiamomma-- have you ever heard of Oppostitional Defiant Disorder? I'm not saying that your dd has this, but some of the things that help parents cope with child who have ODD might help you out.

No one can seem to come up with a reason why spanking is not abuse. Just because other kids are abused worse or have been abused in worst ways in the past does not make it NOT abusive. If my husband hits me, even one time, even if I have done something I should not have, it is abuse. Why is it not abuse if he hits one of our children? I am much closer in size to my husband than our children are. I have a better chance of defending myself, which still isn't very good. Is it only not abuse when the person being struck is completely incapable of fighting back? I really don't get it and I wish someone would address this.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Kara, your dd sounds so similiar to my dd. My dd does not listen to much of anything I say. I sometimes think that she believes I'm just a dumba$$ that gets in her way of doing things her way. She is also dramatic to the point of ridiculous sometimes. She is also stubborn as hell. I love her so much and she is so smart and beautiful but she is also a very dufficult child to parent. She is so intense. A lady from our homeschool group said to me one day "Heather, she'll raise you yet" oh so true.

Mothra, I don't know how to answer your abuse question. I just don't think a smack on the butt is abusive. You make very good points about this and I see why you feel spanking is abuse.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I know it wasn't suppose to be funny, and your poor daughter was probably in a lot of pain, but your comment on her not believing you was funny. My dd is that way alot, luckly for me (and her) she has never sprayed air freshener up her nose... A friend of mine suggested a book called "Raising your spritited child" it was really an eye opener for me, in how to "deal" with my dd. (There are many different levels of "spiritedness" and it isn't just a book about this is what your child is now deal, it has lots of tools in it too to help out. I really liked it)

Candiland: I really liked how you said how that with AP you kind of are growing with your child. I was trying to say something like that, but you said it so nicely.







I really feel that is what I am /we are doing. Growing together, learning from our mistakes. And I am learning how to "read" my children, because each of my three are so different that not everything I do works for everyone. Where I think maybe if I hadn't wanted to be so attached to my kids, I might not have ever learned this. I know my folks used the same sorts of disapline (sp sorry I am terrible)on my bro as well as on me. We where so different and what worked for me or him didn't always work the other way around, but it was like they didn't realize it or something. Anyway that was off topic sort o.

Piglet: I wasn't trying to say all churches are saying it is OK to hit, it was just my nieces was saying it was ok, and even gave guidelines on how to do it etc. A little weird to me!









H


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Ok, here is my reasoning. Whether it is "abuse" or not depends on how hard you are hitting. If you are hitting hard enough to cause a bruise or even soreness, then yes I feel it is abuse. I don't feel it is abusive to give her a swat to get her attention and let her know what she did is NOT ok.

I guess I do hit my husband. Sometimes if I'm feeling feisty I'll smack him on the butt when he walks by. The smacks I give him are harder than any spank Krysten ever got. Is this abusive? I don't think so and he certainly doesn't either.

And I gotta say mothra, if you are trying to get people to stop spanking their children I really don't think you are going about it in the right way. People get defensive if their parenting skills are called into question. And not just defensive about spanking. I see it here when someone's friends/family/doctor questions their AP practices. When people are told EBF is abusive or co-sleeping is harmful to children people get very defensive.

And when you are saying any spank is abusive you are in essence calling parents abusers (i.e. bad parents). If they are on the fence about it, somehow I doubt being called an abuser is going to sway them to your side. If anything I believe it'll make them cling more tightly to their discipline practices as admitting they might be wrong would be tantamount to admitting they are abusers. And how many people do you honestly believe are going to do that?


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sabrina-- I honestly cannot believe you would compare playfully touching your husband's butt with spanking a child. If my husband hits me because he feels I've done something wrong and wants to bring my attention to it, it is still abuse, no? No matter how hard he hits me, right?

I'm not going to say that spanking is not abuse because it is. I think that parents need to realize that. If they don't, then why stop? There is no difference between hitting a child and hitting an adult. I think the fact that it is widely accepted that there IS a difference speaks loudly to how little children are valued in our society. Children do not enjoy the same basic human rights that adults do.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Mothra, You seem like a very wonderful, thoughtful, intelligent person, and you have a handle on something that I don't. FWIW I think you are ahead of your time. This is a very difficult thing to get a handle on. I can think of it in more than one way. I can see what you are saying about spanking being abuse, esp when you compare it to wife-beating. Wife-beating used to be the norm. It was accepted practice. That is where the phrase "rule of thumb" came from. A wife could be struck with something that was as big around as a man's thumb or smaller. Of course, domestic violence still occurs, but it is not socially acceptable. It is abuse.

Spanking is still socially acceptable behavior in this country. It has not yet been unlearned by the collective conscious. I dare say, that is where we are headed, though, so that's good. But, it has got to be replaced with something else. Something that works. The gentle discipline methods I have learned do not work! On my daughter at least! (Sheacoby, they are two peas in a pod, sounds like! And, yes I get [email protected]$$ of the year award, too!) They work sometimes and sometimes they work for awhile. I am just not there yet and I can't consider spanking abusive in the face of the horrors out there that are wrought on children. It is a difference of degree. I really am not sure how else to explain. I don't know if I am making any sense. Spanking is still a discipline tool in this culture. One that I am trying to find a replacement for. It is hard to replace something that works for something that doesn't. Part of it is my kid, I realize. (And, yes, I have heard of ODD, my dad is a psychologist. I get a little hot under the collar about "disorders" and the overmedication in this culture, but that is another thread.) I also need to reread some of my books. I think I have forgotten how to do some of things I read about before. I need a "refresher."









It is a continuum. I'm not at the end of it. And neither is spanking. Intellectually, I can see that it is wrong and why it does not work in the long run. But that is not my lived experience. It works, but I can tell by the way she glares at me that it is not *the* answer. Haven't found it yet, though. I feel like I am fumbling around in the dark for the light switch.

I don't want to be told spanking is not abusive to make me feel better. I don't need anyone to make me feel better about it. If I felt better about it what would be the point? However, telling me that it is abusive doesn't help, either. To me, that is an intellectual thing. A research finding, a value judgement. And I don't yet agree with it. I don't consider myself abusive. I am not totally convinced that there are not some children who don't need a swat from time to time, because otherwise they will continually barrell on ahead like a bull in a china shop. I have corrected my child in the presence of other parents who then chide me to leave her alone, "She's okay, she is just being a kid" or something like. They don't know her, though. They don't know at what point she needs to be reigned in before she spins out of control. If I don't stop her *now* when her voice is simply too loud or she just bouncing in the seat, I will be too late to stop her when she is pitching overboard! (Or the zoo train conductor is turning around to tell her if she does not lower her voice and sit still she will not be able to concentrate to drive and the animals will be scared!!)







: Who me, I've never even been to the zoo.


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Why not? A smack on the butt is still a smack on the butt isn't it? As to the 2 questions you posed I guess I'd have to say not necessarily. Because there have been times that he's cussed in front of our daughter and I've smacked him on the butt and said "Hey! Watch it!" So I guess in your book I'm an abuser.







Oh well, I suppose I can live with that. And good luck in getting people not to spank. BTW, there's an expression that goes "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Perhaps you should think about it.

Edited to say: Great post up there, Sofiamomma.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Sabrina and Mothra, I agree with you both. Therein lies the rub. I get my dd's attention when I spank. That is why it works. I get her attention when I yell. That is why it works. I have pleaded and pleaded for someone to tell me how else to get her attention. I have not yet found a way that consistently works. The drawback, of course is that she is scared and/or angry of/with me. I don't have a dh, but I do smack my friends and they me, in both a playful way and a "Hey! I don't like that!" kind of way. Perhaps that is the next thing to be called abusive! In the future our communication skills will be so advanced we will not resort to physical communication of that sort. Where is the line?


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sabrina-- you are obviously not open to discussing this seriously. If that is what you honestly believe, then I'm not going to bother.

Sofiamomma-- I'm not a psychologist, not even close, but I do have experience with kids who have ODD and kids who simply act like they do sometimes. I actually think medication for the majority of these kids is useless and I have seen behavior modification and diet changes work wonders for these kids. It is so heartbreaking to watch them lose all control of themselves. I was only with them for 8-10 hours a day and I remember clearly the frustration I felt at times. I understand your reluctance to labels, but you don't have to label your daughter in order to try some of the behavior modification techniques. I have to go run some errands right now, but tonight I will look for some resources and pm them to you, if you want. It sounds like you already have some but maybe a different take on things would jolt something for you.

Thank you for your patience with me, Sofiamomma. It is especially kind since I didn't show you any at first.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I am very much appreciating this discussion. I have the hardest time with this aspect of attachment parenting and find it is usually very difficult to discussion. The OP really pointed to something that bugs the heck out of me.

I apologize for skimming over using some of the techniques for ODD earlier. I can't quite get it all in. I'm posting as fast as I can! :LOL I would appreciate any help I can get. You are expressing yourself very well and I can see that you are genuinely wanting to understand another POV. I see that you are very patient. I have been very impressed with how people are expressing themselves here and being heard!


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Sofiamamma-- Have you ever read How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk?


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I am very opposed to spanking. I'm even opposed to calling it spanking - it's hitting. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that I think it is always abusive. However, I would go so far as to say that it is always wrong.

Hitting someone is humiliating. It detracts from the equality of a relationship. It's true, you have an unequal relationship with your child - you are the parent and must make a million different decisions a day which are in the best interests of helping your child grow and expand. They don't always like those decisions but they have to defer to you, the parent, who knows what is best. But there is a difference in the inequality between parent and child in terms of the way a household runs and the inequality in terms of the respect that each deserve - to me, there is no difference in the amount of respect your children deserve as opposed to the amount you deserve: it is equal.

The only thing hitting teaches is that the stronger person wins. The person who can overpower and intimidate will have the last say. It may "work" in the sense that it stops the behavior, but what does it do to promote the loving bond between parents and children? I can only imagine that it detracts from it.

Hitting teaches children that it is acceptable to be hit. I would assume (and you know what they say about assumptions) that the children who have grown up in a spanking household will either spank or not, but those that grew up in a non-spanking household wouldn't spank their own children since it has been ingrained in them that you just don't do it.

I'm curious about that: for those that spank, were you spanked? I'm really curious to see if any grew up in non-spanking households and decided that spanking is the better way to go.

Anyway, I am opposed to hitting and all means of physical intimidation but my best friend is the occasional spanker and you would be hard-pressed to find a better, more connected mother on this earth. I'm proud that she is my best friend and she has taught me much. But I still disagree with spanking.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Mothra, would you please pm them to me too. I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Mothra, just because you don't agree with my beliefs doesn't mean I'm not open to discussing this seriously. Actually, I feel discussing this seriously is exactly what I'm doing.

I'm not trying to tell you that you should stop thinking spanking is abusive. If that's what you think than that's what you think. I'm not even suggesting you start going around saying spanking is NOT abusive. But throwing around accusations of abuse the way you are is not going to endear anyone to your cause. It makes people defensive (surely you know this) and when people are defensive they are likely not going to hear the good points you make.

Lovebeads, yes, I was raised in a household that spanked. Your post is great, and the kind of post I feel WILL make people stop and think about it. You expressed your opinions without being judgemental and accusatory. Most excellent.


----------



## MFuglei (Nov 7, 2002)

You know, I think this is an interesting thread and it raises some interesting question. . . the allusion to Christianity brought something to the forefront for me though.

Is being respectful to your child considered a cornerstone of attachment parenting? If that's the case wouldn't it be sort of like the existance and life of Christ being a cornerstone for Christianity? It's not a question of literal or figurative interpretation of the bible (something that differentiates Christians), but a question of the existence of Christ (something that differentiates Christians from, say, Jews or Muslims). So if respectfulness to your child is a cornerstone of Attachment Parenting and spanking disrespects the child, then being a spanking APer would be sort of like saying "Yeah, I'm a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus." The two seem mutually exclusive to me.

I have no real judgements of parents who yell or spank. I was raised by a few of them - and I love them with all of my heart. I hate, though, that my first reaction to any conflict with Lilly is to bully, spank, or yell. I am doing everything in my power to change that, but the programming is difficult to debunk. I will say this, though -- I remember with stunning clarity the last time my mother spanked me. I was seven or eight and I ran from her. I feared her. I remember how I felt deep in my heart and how much it hurt me on an EMOTIONAL level. To this day when I think of the event, my heart races. It's been over twenty years since that happened, but I can still recall it all with an amazing amount of clarity and detail. I don't want my daughter to EVER feel like that.

We're probably more AP than most people -- nearly had a drug free labor, we breastfeed (and extended nurse), coslept until DD wanted otherwise (which STILL breaks my heart. I MISS her), we try to use gentle discipline, we babywore until DD wanted otherwise (again this breaks my heart, but it's about HER wants and needs, not mine). And yet I'm hesitant to call myself AP until I can deprogram my hitting, yelling, and generally bullying mind. No, I don't yell often. I've only spanked once. But EVERY time we have conflict everything in my being wants to yell and spank and hit. Until that changes, I don't feel comfortable calling myself AP.

As for others, well, I guess to each their own - if they want to wear a label with pride whether they follow it or not, I guess they can. But I really can't, in my mind, call someone AP when they don't follow the very basic tenet of the philosophy - respect for their child. And I can't see any way whatsoever that spanking, forced weaning, and CIO are respectful of the child.

**I should note, though, that CIO and fussing are, in my mind two very different things, and that for things like running into the street, touching a hot stove, or what have you, a certain amount of fear should probably be instilled in the child. I don't know how that should be done, but I'm continually learning here. I'll also note, for what it's worth, that my daughter is 18 months old and we are JUST ENTERING the boundary testing, limit-testing territory.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LoveBeads_
*I'm curious about that: for those that spank, were you spanked? I'm really curious to see if any grew up in non-spanking households and decided that spanking is the better way to go.*
I was spanked on and off. When my mom had us I was switched (for wetting the bed mostly) and spanked. My sister was pretty much beat on to the school bus every morning (I wasn't school age yet). When my grandparents had us ( most of the time) we weren't really spanked, however my older uncle (4 years older than me) beat us up and abused us in many ways. We did watch my grandfather beat our uncle on several occassions. I was abused physically, emotionally, verbally and sexually thru out a lot of my childhood.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

(((((((Sheacoby and sister))))))))

Edited to add: this is why I can never get angry with a spanker. I remember that they were children once, too and probably spanked.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Thank you Lovebeads. You know I feel the same way when I think about that little girl that I was I just want to hold her so much.
I really never never want my dd to feel like I did as a child. I know I should never hit her and I feel so much grieve about this whole thing. I know she gets scared of me and it breaks my heart. I know I am so much better to her than anyone one was to me but it's not good enough. I want to be the best mother possible to her and my ds. Writing about this really helps a lot and has got me back on track to finding better parenting tools!!


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MFuglei_
*
**I should note, though, that CIO and fussing are, in my mind two very different things, and that for things like running into the street, touching a hot stove, or what have you, a certain amount of fear should probably be instilled in the child. I don't know how that should be done, but I'm continually learning here. I'll also note, for what it's worth, that my daughter is 18 months old and we are JUST ENTERING the boundary testing, limit-testing territory.*
MFuglei, this is exactly the kind of situations a spanking was reserved for in our household (like I said, last time DD was spanked was for running in the street and she never did it again). Did we like spanking her? Of course not. But we didn't know of any other way to instill fear of that situation into her. We'd already discussed it with her numerous times and taking something away from her wasn't something that would adequately get the point across.

If someone had walked up and offered us a better way that was guaranteed to make her understand that running into the street was extremely dangerous and not at all acceptable, we would have taken it. But we did the best we could at that current time with the skills we had.


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

this spanking tangent is very interesting. i don't have too much to add there, though. i did want to digress back for a minute to the original question of if somebody _self identifies_ as AP, but spanks or does CIO or weans early is she still AP, here's what popped in to my mind. suppose somebody says to you, "i breastfeed", but then you find out that person breastfeeds only once a day and feeds her baby formula the rest of the time. (lets also suppose that this example mom has no physical difficulties precluding her from breastfeeding.) i guess the mom in my breastfeeding example would still be breastfeeding, but certainly not to the same degree as a tandeming mama who lets her children self wean. i don't know that _I_ would self identify as "breastfeeding" if i only nursed once a day for a month and then decided formula was easier (remember, no physical problems), but some people would i guess. if you want to educate the moms who are doing CIO and spanking, etc you could offer to help and offer some resources/books, experience.

gotta run, but that was just burning a whole in my keyboard...


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LoveBeads_
*I am very opposed to spanking. I'm even opposed to calling it spanking - it's hitting. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that I think it is always abusive. However, I would go so far as to say that it is always wrong.*










You said it beautifully.



*Quote:*

...my best friend is the occasional spanker and you would be hard-pressed to find a better...mother
That's how I feel about my dear friend who spanks. She honestly tries to do it "with love" and not in anger. I don't agree with it at all, but she loves her kids more than life itself and is the most selfless person I've ever met.


----------



## MFuglei (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by SabrinaJL_
*
If someone had walked up and offered us a better way that was guaranteed to make her understand that running into the street was extremely dangerous and not at all acceptable, we would have taken it. But we did the best we could at that current time with the skills we had.*
And I guess this is why I'm searching for those skills now. I'm not trying to criticize you because I understand why you guys did what you did -- but for me, deep in my heart, being spanked was such a horrible thing that I can still remember it vividly, and I want to be armed with a different arsenal to deal with Lilly, you know?

Anyhow, not trying to be critical, just trying to say that I understand.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

You guys, you *have* to differentiate between spanking, hitting, and abuse if you want anything to change, because *spankers* make that distinction, kwim? Spanking can certainly lead to hitting and abuse, but when someone who uses spanking as discipline refers to it they are generally talking about something pretty specific (the wooden spoon example not included).

Eilonwy, I have read that book. In fact I got it out last night to read it again. It was interesting to me that I am still dealing with a lot of the same issues that I was three or four years ago when I was doing the exercises in it. A lot of my issues with dd center around her acting like she is a grown up and not knowing how to behave in socially appropriate ways. The suggestions in the book work sometimes, but it is when they don't that I get so frustrated. It is very similar to Love and Logic, which also works, but sometimes doesn't. The problem with Love and Logic is that it requires so much time, effort, thought, planning, etc. ahead of time for it to work well.

I don't know if I should keep posting here or start a new thread, but I wanted to give a couple of examples. Last week I took dd out to eat. She was crying and the waitress came over to see what was wrong. She sat down and talked to dd like she was a real person and really helped her feel better. (Dd was upset about child labor laws. She wants a job.) Dd kind of glommed on to the lady after that. She does that. Kind of gets obsessed with people. So she's grabbing the lady around the waist and not letting go. As her mother I realized she needed to be stopped right then and not let it go further, but when I tried she waved me off. "Oh, it's fine. She's okay." When it was time to go I gave dd the check and sent her to pay, thinking that would distract her from the waitress. She didn't want to leave her, and I was trying to get her to go so the gal could get back to work, but she went with her. When the check was paid, dd was hanging off her, being totally inappropriate. The waitress said she needed to get back to work a few times, but dd wouldn't let go. Of course, at the same time I am trying to talk to her too. Finally, I start counting and she lets go. I could tell by the look on the lady's face that she was upset. When we got to the car I was trying to talk to dd about it, but she was blowing me off. Finally, I started yelling and only then did she listen to me. Today we went back to that same restaurant and I apologized to the waitress, but she never once came near us. I felt horrible. I was so humilitated and also sad for dd that she lacks these social skills and I can't figure out how to teach her without yelling. My insides were all twisted up. She was pretty nice on the way out, so I felt better, but I could barely eat, my stomach hurt so much.

Another example: We are in the car, dd2 needs to go to sleep. Dd1 is reading aloud. Dd2 starts to fuss every time dd1 speaks. So I say "You need to stop now, please." I didn't explain. Dd2 didn't any more talking and dd1 is smart enough to figure it out. Besides which she needs to not argue with me every time I ask her to do something or not to. So she keeps reading, because of course she isn't finished. I say "now", she keeps on I say, louder, "Now!", she keeps on and I am livid! I yell "NOW!, Not when you are done, not when you decide, when I say so!" Of course, now the baby is crying because I am yelling. I pull over, get the baby out, calm her down and nurse her, put her back in her car seat and ask dd1 to get out of the car. I tell she may ride home with me in the car if she can mind. I say I do not owe her an explanation every time I ask her to do something. If she needs to know why she can ask me later at an appropriate time. She agrees and the rest of the trip home is uneventful.

So, I understand that spanking is wrong, does not work in the long, is disrespectful of my child, and is not AP. I realize that I am not AP. I knew going into it as a single parent that I would not be able to truly be AP, or do everything the way I wanted to. I do get very frustrated, though, when I feel like I don't have alternatives that actually work and that my smart little cookie can not thwart!

P.S. If you read this and feel like you have no suggestions for me, could you maybe tell me why? Is my post too long, too hard to understand. You just don't get where I am coming from?


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Kara, I don't have any advice because my dd does similiar things and I can't find a better way myself. It makes me feel a little better knowing my dd isn't the only child like this and I'm not the only mom that struggles. Of course I wish we all were perfect and knew exaclty the right thing to do at all times. However, I guess that wouldn't make us human.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I just had to pop in again and say one thing (or two) about spanking...
My ds#2 was about 18 months old at the time, when he did something (not sure what) that made my father feel it was ok to hit him on the butt. I walked in when he was "spanking" him... maybe 2 or 3 swats. I freaked. My son didn't appear upset by it, he wasn't crying, he didn't even look shocked: like what was that???? I confronted my dad, and told him NO ONE hits my kids, NO ONE!!! My dad's reply was Look it didn't even hurt him.
So what was the point of hitting him, if not to hurt him? That is what I don't get. If you are going to use spanking as a form of disapline even one you choose the very last to use, you are wanting to get something from it right? I mean to say you hit, but not to hurt... is good, but what is the point of hitting them if NOT to hurt them even just a little to get that immediate response. I mean it has got to sting or what is the point. I don't mean to say that as accusatory (sp) because I know just reading over it it sounds bad... but I am not sure how else to put into type what I am trying to say... so please for give the very judgementalness of this reply.
I guess what I am saying is, if you do hit, it is going to hurt, or what is the point of hitting?
I don't think that every child that was hit turns out to be a hitter or even as they grow up hits other kids. But I do think that it instills a fear into the child, that IMO (from being hit as a child) isn't good, and isn't something I want. For me the yelling (me to my kids) was so bad, I feel terrible about it. I realized that I wasn't even yelling out of love... I was at the end of my rope. That is when I desided I needed to find something better for me and my kids. I read "When Anger Hurts Your Kids" and that was so freaking helpful. I love it, and when ever Iget to the "end of my rope" I just pull it off the bookshelf and look inside and remind myself that just cuz I don't hit, doesn't mean my yelling and attitude aren't just has harmful....
OK I don't think I made any since here...
H


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

OK, I am sorry I was posting when you two were posting, so I am NOT trying to get nasty with either of you.

I wish I had some advice... maybe giving a quick explanation would have worked? I don't know it is so much easy to think of things AFTER something happens then when it is happening. What I have noticed with my dd is that she does seem to "NEED" a reason for why I am telling her to do or not do something. I use to just say "Because I am the mom..." kinda things. But when I stepped back and thought Would I like to NOT know why I was asked to do or not do something. I thought, no I would want to know. SO, even if what you really want is for her to just do it! (Cause I so know how that feels) Maybe she is just someone who wants to know why.
My ds#1 is someone who is totally OK with just doing something or not doing something cuz I say so. dd is not like that at all. Ds#2 seems to be leaning towards what my dd needs! (LOL)
I guess what I have been trying with my kids is to treat them in a manner that I want to be treated in, when it comes to respect issues. I mean there are things I get to do cuz I am a grown up and for the most part they are OK with that. But something like an explanation I am ok with giving, because I too would want to know.
Did that make since??

H


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Makes sense to me. The one thing that drove me nuts that my parents did to me was say "Because I said so". I HATED that with a passion and swore I'd never do it to my child. For the most part I haven't. There has been a time or two that I didn't feel like debating with her but I almost always give her a reason. She may not like the reason and she may think it's lame, but I still give her one.

Sofiamomma, I wish I had some suggestions for you but I have no experience with situations like that. Maybe mamaofthree is right and you can try giving her a real quick explanation.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I usually do give my dd an explaination but she a lot of the time questions it and I get to the point where I just say because I said so, ugh. What I'm trying to say is my explanations aren't enough for her. I think she honestly thinks she knows better than me. Which I admire (I want her to be sure of herself) but shit it's frusterating.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*
Another example: We are in the car, dd2 needs to go to sleep. Dd1 is reading aloud. Dd2 starts to fuss every time dd1 speaks. So I say "You need to stop now, please." I didn't explain. Dd2 didn't any more talking and dd1 is smart enough to figure it out. Besides which she needs to not argue with me every time I ask her to do something or not to. So she keeps reading, because of course she isn't finished. I say "now", she keeps on I say, louder, "Now!", she keeps on and I am livid! I yell "NOW!, Not when you are done, not when you decide, when I say so!" Of course, now the baby is crying because I am yelling. I pull over, get the baby out, calm her down and nurse her, put her back in her car seat and ask dd1 to get out of the car. I tell she may ride home with me in the car if she can mind. I say I do not owe her an explanation every time I ask her to do something. If she needs to know why she can ask me later at an appropriate time. She agrees and the rest of the trip home is uneventful.
*
I have to tell you, this would have absolutely _infuriated_ me as a child, and gotten a similar result. If my mother couldn't explain to me why I should do something, there was no way on earth I was going to do it. She's smart enough to figure it out? Even so, by refusing to explain it to her you're basically sending the message that your desires are inherently more important than hers. Quite frankly, I think that parents do owe children explanations every time they are asked to do something. If you explain in the majority of the time (and I mean 99 times out of 100) why you want them to do/not to do something, when you shriek that 100th time to "GET OUT OF THE STREET!!" they're much more likely to come running back to you.

About the restauraunt.. that's a tricky situation. Honestly, I think I would have left when she started to cry at the beginning of the evening. I've done it before with my niece and I'll do it again.

Learning to behave in public settings can take a while, but before it can happen the child has to demonstrate an ability and a desire to do so. Social boundaries take more work for some people to learn than others. There was a thread about this either here or in Toddlers a month ago or so.. I'll try to find it for you. At any rate, I would explain that if she can't learn to behave herself in public/social situations that she's going to have to stay out of them for a while.

Wanting to be treated like a grownup but not being aware of social nuances.. yeah, that's pretty much the description of a kid. They all do that. Think back to when you were a child.. didn't it irritate you when someone said "Because I'm the grownup and I said so"? Didn't it puzzle you when you tried to do something you honestly thought was helpful/reasonable and got yelled at for it? This is why so many kids will tell you that grownups make no sense; they behave erratically, they follow a set of rules that are completely foreign, and then they don't even explain those rules, they only tell you that you're wrong.

In short, I think explanations are a reasonable expectation for a child to have, and a fair thing for a parent to do. I don't think it's too much to ask. JMO.


----------



## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

I want to comment, although many of the girls have summed up my veiws of this whole thing. The Title 'AP' is kinda silly IMO. I really hate titles. One person may take it as an insult if somone says 'they are not AP' as if you are snubbing them and insinuating they are inferior or not a good parent, so the whole title thing rubs me the wrong way.

That said, I just want to comment on the spanking issue since that seems to the hot topic (I dont CIO and have no comment regaurding BF/weaning). Soooo , I guess my veiws on spanking are pretty much this: Its not the best method but some parents dont know any different. Does this make them bad parents? no. It may make them feel inferior if they have not been able to effectively apply other methods and see others totally puting down spankign as if its a crime. I think we should help these moms instead with thier specific situations instead of judgeing them. Now personally I have been known to spank, not a first resort and yes it has been out of frustration. I hate it! I always try other things first but sometimes I get over frustrated. If one of my kids gets spanked they KNOW why and we always have a talk about it after so they understand. It doesnt make it the best way or even right but sometimes when you have tried everything you cant help but give into frustration. More than anythign if I feel myself getting frustrated I tell my kiddos, "Mommy is getting really frustrated. Why dont you guys (name an activity) and mom is going to go the the bathroom to chill out." I've talked with my kids to discuss what fristration means and that if mommy goes into the bathroom she is not to be disturbed. I cry, I scream I bang my head, but its all in the bathroom where I can get it out safetly and not taking my frustration out on my kids. That certainly doesnt mean I'm perfect, like I said I have been known to spank on occastion. because of that and because I dont know each person's situation or what they have or have not tried I will never look down at parent who spanks. As far as AP, some would consider me AP some would not, I guess it really doesnt matter. I do say I practice some AP but I have a hard time thinking that anyone could totally be completely AP because this is not a perfect world therefore no perfect parent. JMHO.

One more thing I'm adding in, I have a special needs child. And life gets SUPER frustrating here (see current post on SN forum). I think all special needs parents are SAINTS if thier kids make it to thier teen years! LMAO

Now something I posted on another board that I think applies to this:
We as parents try to do whats best for our children. We read, we scour the internet, and we try to connect with other like minded parents. Our lives are focused on our children, everything we do is for our children in one way or another. I like to call this "Parenting in the Baby's Space"
For those who are familiar with what "The Baby Space" means you may have the idea of what I'm referring to. For those who don't, I'll explain... The Baby Space is the special space that we give our child, its the space that centers on them, its the space that they can feel safe in because its 'thier' space. Everyone/baby/child needs 'thier' space, us as parents are responsible for creating and maintaining the "Baby's Space"

So with that definition given I'd like to explain what "Parenting in the Baby's Space" means. You'll see this phrase come up alot! Many Parents practice Attachment Parenting, but perhaps they dont feel they fit in there because they dont follow ALL the 'rules' of AP. I personally love the idea of attachment parenting, I think many if not all the ideas are great and are ideal. But, the truth is, we dont live in a perfect world. I find it hard to follow through on some of these. I have found my children don't always respond well to some of the methods suggested in Attachment Parenting, therefore, I had to come up with my own parenting styles.

After really studying each situation and finding what methods work well for each of my individual children I do what works for them. I feel attached to my children because I 'know' them. I know what they respond to and what the best things are for helping them to learn and succeed in thier lives. I want to emphasise, each of my children are VERY different, as are each of yours. No one way of parenting is the 'right' or 'wrong' way, and there definately is no cookie cutter method that we as parents will fit into. We each find what works best for our children and go with it.

By finding out what works best for our individual child we are essentially parenting in thier space. We are not trying to get them to conform to the ideas we have, we are instead helping them to learn to find thier own uniqueness while still enforcing some basic rules and morals that we believe in. We are not parenting strictly in our space, we have taken our childrens space into consideration. By finding what works for our child we are respecting the fact that they are individuals and deserve the right that no one method is going to fit all children.

This is "Parenting in the Baby's Space". If your 'baby' has grown up some you may want to call it Parenting in the Child's Space .


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Really? You think children should get an explanation 99 times out of 100? I might go mad if I did that! I've told her many times before that she needs to be quiet when Ellie is falling asleep. It is only for a few minutes. She cries if you talk while she is falling asleep. This baby joined our family long enough ago now, that I think Sophia knows this. I did not want to talk any more than I had to, because I didn't want the baby to cry. Obviously, it totally backfired on me, because I did not control my temper! I just find it very hard to believe that an extremely bright seven year old needs an explanation each and every time.

And the restaurant thing. I know what you mean about leaving and we do do that, but she was not misbehaving with the initial crying. She really was upset. Leaving and telling her it was because she was not behaving appropriately would have been very unfair. It was not until she was hanging on the waitress on not letting go that she was misbehaving.

I do appreciate your input. I need to be more aware of what you are saying about the whole double standard thing. I have a hard time with that, because there are so many times that kids are *not* equal, that I worry that she will not be able to differentiate when I need to be the parent and that is why she needs to mind and when it is okay for a kid to be treated the same.


----------



## sabrosina (Jun 23, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by asherah_
*You know, this reminds me of discussions about who is a Christian and who isn't.
Some say you have to take the bible literally, others say you don't.
Some say you have to adhere rigidly to church dogma, others say you don't.
And everyone gets all bent out of shape about it.

AP isn't a religion. And it isn't something concrete and absolute.
And Dr. Sears isn't even the be-all, end-all of it. He's ONE voice. He's not the Pope.

I don't CARE what other people call themselves.
I don't CARE whether people think I am an "ap" mom or not.

I am just interested in doing what seems best for my kid.
So far, the ideas expressed by Dr. Sears, Elizabeth Pantley, Dr. Gordon and the Kabat-Zinns and others have helped me.

But I am not their disciple.
I am not trying to get into some AP heaven by following all the AP rules.
Just trying to be a good parent.

So, if it makes you all feel better.. I won't call myself AP.
And y'all can call yourselves anything you want.
I won't object.
I'm proud and happy if my son someday calls me a good parent.
That's the only label I will ever need.*
Ditto.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

You know what sucks... you want your kids to be independant and you want them to be leaders etc... but then you want them to do what you say without question. I feel the same way. My girlfriends and I crack up about it, "JUST DO WHAT I SAY!!!!" stop questioning me all the time, just do it! But in the end, I almost always give an explination, because I find at least for my dd that it does work best for her/us. Even if I want tosay... "WE all ready talked about this! JUST DO IT!!!!" LOL ) I can totally understand the frustration, but when you look back on the experience, I would say... what did you learn? (I don't mean this in a smartassy way...) What can you do different next time? That is what I do when I feel that something went off worse than I was hoping. What can I do different next time to have this not happen again. Like maybe reminding her that while the baby was trying to fall asleep we don't talk. (hind site is always 20/20).

H


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

To answer the OP, spanking is not an expression of attachment. Spanking is hitting, and hitting as a form of control is an act of hate.

To practice attachment is an ongoing discipline of ourselves. When our child is loud, we learn to be quiet. When our child is selfish, we learn to give. To be attached to another person is to practice the art of living in balance with them, where they are at, because we love them. It is learning to trust yourself, and trust the goodness of your child.

To find that balance you have to look. Still your mind. Meditate. Pray. Reflect. Find inroads to attachment~look at baby pictures, artwork done by your child.

Find things which inspire you and go to them often.

It is ongoing.

The quieter you become the more you can hear~ Baba Ram Dass

This--the immediate, everyday, and present experience--is IT, the entire and ultimate point of the existence of a universe~Alan Watts

Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends.
Love never fails.~ corinthians


----------



## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Beautiful post Heartmama!!!

I am learning so much from all of these posts. I guess I do understand that parents get frustrated and lose it. We are afterall human. ANd humans make mistakes. ANd if we are truely blessed we learn from those mistakes. I just dont like to hear people who do act disrespectful and ungentle and not act regretfully about it. I cant imagine acting anything but gentle with such a small little person and if I so happen to falter ( my ds is only 2 years old so I havent been tested as much as other parents have) I hope that I realize my mistake and try to make it better. And I will remain firm in my beliefs that true attatchment doesnt come from using methods that detach you from your child like spanking, cio, and early weaning.

Let's continue to make this thread respectful, thanks ladies!


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*Really? You think children should get an explanation 99 times out of 100? I might go mad if I did that!*
I haven't forgotten about pm'ing you. I'm having a rough 24 hours!

But about this-- It takes practice. I try my best to always offer an explanation. When I don't, my 6yo knows that I mean business and he trusts that I have a good one. Case in point-- We were driving to Dallas over Easter weekend, 5 hours from here. I was driving by myself with all three kids-- 6, 2, and 3mo. We stopped at a gas station and I let my oldest out to stretch his legs while I pumped gas. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw a man walking purposefully toward me. This gas station was not in a well populated area, I could not see another person anywhere. Ds was about fifteen feet away from me. I stopped pumping gas immediately and told my son to get in the car. Now. he asked why and I said, "Just do it." And he did. The man asked me for some money and I did not give it to him because I did not want to pull my wallet out in this situation where I would have no recourse if he tried to take it. He was clearly intoxicated and being belligerent. I drove away with him yelling at me. The point of the story is that in a situation where there was danger, my son could infer from the tone of my voice and my lack of explanation that something was up and I needed him to do what I asked immediately.

This is the same level of trust that I have with my husband. If he tells me firmly to do something, I do it because I trust that he has a good reason that will explained to me later. In many ways, the relationships we have with our children are not different than those we have with our adult family members. After all, that is really what we are helping them to do-- figure out how to have healthy, meaningful relationships with other human beings. We can teach them how to earn love and respect by being agressive and angry, or we can show them how to express themselves to others with respect and understanding.

Now that is the desired outcome. Getting there is hard sometimes. If he asks why, I tell him why to the best of my ability.

Why can't I have ice cream money today? Because we don't have enough money to buy everything we want.

Why do I have to be quiet when my brother can run around and be loud and no one makes him stop? Because he is a baby and doesn't understand us like you do. When you were a baby, you did the same thing and it drove us nuts just like he driving you nuts right now. One day your little sister will drive him nuts, too.

Just a brief explanation usually works. I try to curb longer discussions about "why" by offering an alternative. Sometimes the alternative is to play "the quiet game" or whisper what he wants to say to me in his head if I need him to be quiet for a minute. Choices are an important part of gentle discipline. You can't simply say, "Stop what you are doing." You have to guide the child to help him or her decide what it is that they want to do instead of what you are asking them to NOT do. Sometimes phrasing it in a positive way rather than a negative way helps. Instead of saying, "Stop reading so your sister can sleep," or whatever, you could say, "Let's stop reading while your sister falls asleep. Think about the words in your head, and once she is asleep, you and I can have a special conversation about what you read." Or something like that. Don't say "Why don't you..." because they will always have a reason why. If you need her to be quiet while the baby falls asleep, give her something to do quietly.

This IS a lot of work at first. It takes a while to train yourself to do this, and it will take a while for your child to understand that you always have a reason for asking her to do something. Eventually, you will get to the point where you can say, "I really just need you to do this for me right now and we can talk about it later." I promise. I think it is possible, in the situation that you described, that she does it now simply to get a rise out of you. If you stop giving her what she wants, she will stop. You might have to sit through listening to the baby cry a few times, but eventually it will work.

This is what is so difficult about the alternatives to spanking. They take time. I've had dozens of conversations with parents who spank, some who want to stop and many that did not, and they always ask what they can do instead of spanking. I think that the first step is to just remove spanking from the realm of possibility. Don't make it an option. The next step is developing techniques for dealing with difficult moments with your child. This just takes time. The fact is that there isn't anything out there, aside from interupting the behavior that is undesirable with physical pain, that will get your child to stop what you DON'T want him or her to be doing instantly. All of the alternatives take time to work, especially if you are coming from a place with your child where your initial reaction to perceived misbehavior is anger. It takes time to heal the wounds that are already there, time to correct bad habits in both yourself and your child, and time to see the results of a new way of parenting.

Just to go ahead and make this the longest post ever, I'll tell you about my journey to this place. When my oldest son turned 3, all hell broke loose. The two's were cake for us. He was SO EASY! But, he wasn't verbal and couldn't hear very well. Once that was corrected, he was so hard to deal with all of the sudden. He had this voice that could reason and argue with me, and it drove me insane. One night I got very drunk on the back porch after he went to sleep and cried while my husband sat and looked at me like I was mad. But he admitted that he felt frustrated, too. I talked to some parents I knew that I thought were wonderful parents and asked them how they did it, and this kept coming up-- talk to your kid, listen to your kid, respect your kid. And this was the result of that. Always taking time to explain why, taking time to build trust.

I've seen this stuff work with even the most defiant kids. A group of mamas stepped in to help a mother we saw drowning in our neighborhood. We took turns interacting with her child and showing her how to respond to his outbursts without giving into one ourselves. It helps to have someone show you. If you have a mama friend who, by all outward appearances, is in a good place with her parenting, ask her for help. Seriously, I think most people are more interested in helping than judging (even if they are like me and have to get over themselves first).

My husband is glaring at me so I'd better get off the computer for a while, but I have been thinking about this and didn't want to say "don't spank!" without offering any alternatives.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

It's true that the "advantage" of spanking is you usually get a result right away. It's the long run that fails you. OTOH, with GD it is usually not right away that you see the results, but later on after much practice and hard work.

Kara, your post reminded me of a book I read called "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf. It sounds like something you would get alot out of. He talks about why kids like to prolong conversations - like why should I do this, well dD this is why, but so and so never does it, well we aren't so-and-so's parents....blah blah blah. He talks about how to get your message across and then put a swift end to the procrastination and haggling. Now, some people didn't like this book because it COULD be misinterpreted as not letting your child have a say, but he does stress talking with your kids about incidents LATER, when everybody is more calm and in the mood to listen. I'm thinking that this might be a technique that you can use. I really recommend you read the book. It should be in your library as it's been out for a long time. I have to cut this post short but there was a discussion about this book in GD some time ago...a search might bring it up.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*I Case in point-- We were driving to Dallas over Easter weekend, 5 hours from here. I was driving by myself with all three kids-- 6, 2, and 3mo. We stopped at a gas station and I let my oldest out to stretch his legs while I pumped gas. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw a man walking purposefully toward me. This gas station was not in a well populated area, I could not see another person anywhere. Ds was about fifteen feet away from me. I stopped pumping gas immediately and told my son to get in the car. Now. he asked why and I said, "Just do it." And he did. The man asked me for some money and I did not give it to him because I did not want to pull my wallet out in this situation where I would have no recourse if he tried to take it. He was clearly intoxicated and being belligerent. I drove away with him yelling at me. The point of the story is that in a situation where there was danger, my son could infer from the tone of my voice and my lack of explanation that something was up and I needed him to do what I asked immediately.
*








This is exactly the point I was trying to make about the hundreth time. If your child knows that your natural inclination is to offer an explanation, when you suddenly have a reason not to explain immediately they are much more likely to take you seriously. I don't even think it really take more time, in the long run. If you had said "Your sister can't sleep while you're reading, she will cry and stay awake longer. Why don't you read quietly in your head until she falls asleep and then she can talk about it." It would have taken a lot less time than what you ended up doing.

Even though my son is a baby, I explain everything to him. "When you scream instead of using words, Mommy gets frustrated and doesn't want to do anything. Please use your words." "When you bite the nursie, Mommy doesn't want to nurse anymore." And so on and so forth. It's very very difficult for me right now, mostly because I'm pregnant and my fuse is exceptionally short, but I know that he appreciates and understands the explanations I give him. It's very important to me, because I really feel that even at 17 months he is entitled to an explanation for my behavior, even though I find myself saying the same things over and over again. He needs to know that I have a consistant reason for doing the things I do and that I still love him even when I'm frustrated/angry/upset. He's also developing a vocabulary to express his own feelings about things, and that will serve him well in the months and years to come. He can already tell me that he's tired, sad, hungry, hurt, and several other things, and he loves that I can respond to his words quickly and effectively when I can't always respond to his 'wah-wah's' the same way. Yes, he's a very verbal 17 month old, but it's very worthy of note that he's got a better vocabulary for how he's feeling than many 4 and 5 year olds.

Another huge aspect of this for me is choosing your battles. Very often, a child will ask to do something and be told no without any real reason. Who really cares if they wear a pink tutu to school? Will the world end if they blow bubbles in their milk? No, not really. It totally grosses me out sometimes when Eli will eat stale graham crackers that he's hidden in a drawer, but it's not going to hurt him, so why should I make a fuss about it? I try not to argue with him unless it's dangerous or it really is too far for me. Granted, he's 17 months old at this point, but still. It's about setting precedents.

Like this: Eli is very independant. He loves to do things all by himself, and he loves to help out around the house like a big boy, or to do what daddy and mommy are doing. So he wanted to eat his cereal all by himself, holding the spoon. This is, of course, much much much messier than if I feed him, but he's so much happier when he does it himself. I compromised by teaching him to wipe up his place when he's finished eating. I get him a bowl of cereal and (soy)milk, and a spoon, and he eats and is very happy. When he's finished, he gets a burpcloth and wipes up the milk he spilled. He doesn't get things perfectly clean, but he does a very nice job all things considered. I don't have to look at a puddle of milk that I can't bend over to clean up, and he gets to feed himself and feel like a big boy. He also loves cleaning up at this point, because that's something that grownups do, so he gets to feel even better about his place in the world. Mutual satisfaction!


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Eilonwy (beautiful user name, BTW, I *loved* the Chronicles of Prydain!), I've been thinking about your response and what frustrates me is that you said that would have infuriated you as a child. Doesn't being shushed infuriate you as an adult sometimes, too? And don't you realize that if someone asks you to stop doing something that they have a good reason? I'm just thinking we should be about there by now. Like Mothra was saying her son, at age six, got into the car without an explanation. My dd very likely would not have done that. I've been explaining things since she was very little. Her toddlerhood was a lot like you describe with your son. I was pleased with AP back then. Then she hit three and I was at sea. I kept getting advice to not talk so much, not negotiate, she is becoming a spoiled brat, she thinks she runs the show, has the right to just to whatever she wants, whenever she wants, not take others into consideration, she needs to know who is the parent, parenting is not a democracy.
She's seven now and I don't trust even with all the explanations she has been given over the years that she would mind me without one in a dangerous situation. And I would like to streamline things, conserve some energy. I would like to feel like she trusts that I have some valuable things to offer her, teach her, etc. That if I tell her something I know what I am talking about. That if I ask her to do something I have a good reason.

I think yesterday that if I had said "Please read to yourself now so Ellie can fall asleep" that would have worked much better. I was already irritated by the reading in the first place (she was doing it in a "funny" way) and had been restraining myself because I felt that she was not hurting anything and shouldn't be stopped just because it was bugging me.

I think the history of the relationship I have with her plays a huge role. I am on edge all the time, because I have to always be ready for a fight, kwim? And of course, she is probably got expectations for how I will respond in a given situation. Maybe I can catch her off guard. . .

I can see that a two year old needs an explanation every time, but if I've given explanations for things in the past, is a seven year old really not capable of carrying that information forward to future situations? She is soooo bright I feel like she should be able to do that. She is always "forgetting" stuff and I suspect she often "plays dumb." Did any of you ever do that? If so, do you remember why? Piglet, do you think the book you mentioned addreses that? I have often wondered if it is a way of entangling me in a conversation.

P.S. Mothra, I would *love* to have someone show me how to interact with her. The problem is, well you can see from the advice I've gotten above! My aunt does very well with her, but I've always thought that was partly because she is not me. I've thought about asking for her help.


----------



## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*Sometimes the alternative is to play "the quiet game" or whisper what he wants to say to me in his head if I need him to be quiet for a minute.*
Hehe, just had to say I love "the quiet game". I used this one with my daycare kids. With 8 kids aged 5-10 it could get SERIOUSLY rowdy sometimes. The winnner would get 2 "star dollars" which was our daycare money that they could use to purchase stuff out of the treasure chest.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Kara, I keep knodding a long every time I read one of your post. I think our daughters were seperated at birth(Shea is also 7). I thought I was a really competent parent (I had never heard the concept of AP at the time) and was doing most everything right. I explained everything to my dd, we had long talks every night before bed after her story, I nursed her still.......then she turned 3 and all hell broke loose. Since then I have almost daily felt like a failure as a parent.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I really think the two of you would really get alot out of this book: Raising Your Spirited Child" By Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. MY daughter does sound a lot like your dds. I thought what the heck happened? Did I get the devils child or something. Everything was "fine" and then she turned 3. OMG! I about went mad. What happened to my sweet little girl? She was so much "MORE" to deal with. THen about 18 months ago a friend and I were talking about our dd's and she was telling about how her dd did this and that and fianlly she found that book and it was so helpful. SO i went right to the library checked it out LOVED it and then went out and baught it.
Because my dd is so "more" and I am not is some respects, I just don't get her sometimes. It has taken about 18 months to get to this new level in our realtionship. We work on the new tools everyday, BUT I have noticed we have a lot more days when things are going GREAT then how it use to be. And I find myself much more relaxed then I use to feel.
I have also learned (have 3 kids! :LOL ) that some situations I just choose to avoid... LIke if it is at all possible, I DON"T go shopping with all of them. I found that 1) I am way more stressed so my level of tolerance is really low 2) they just get so excited about being OUT and all the stuff in the store (and we don't even go to regular grocery stores... health food ones!) 3) everyone is happier if we just don't do it that way, plus I do get one on one time with one of them when I just take one out at a time. (SO usually food shopping is a Saturday morning thing!







: )

H


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I've heard that book mentioned several times. I'm gonna see if my Local library has it, if not I'll try to buy it (money very very tight right now)! Is there a website you can suggest with good parenting info for those w/spiritied children. I had one booked marked a couple of years ago but I can't remember what it was.
My dd was a "highneeds" baby too but that I could handle.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*Eilonwy (beautiful user name, BTW, I *loved* the Chronicles of Prydain!), I've been thinking about your response and what frustrates me is that you said that would have infuriated you as a child. Doesn't being shushed infuriate you as an adult sometimes, too? And don't you realize that if someone asks you to stop doing something that they have a good reason?*
Oh, definately, but I'm rarely shushed irl; people don't even bother doing that to most adults. Children, however... well, the majority of adults seem to think that whatever they have to say is inherently more important than anything a child could say. I couldn't disagree more. What I mean is, I never was willing to tolerate that kind of attitude from adults when I was a child, so I don't expect children to tolerate it from me today.

Yes, I realize that most of the time when someone asks me to stop doing something, they have a good reason, but again I'm rarely asked to stop doing anything. I also find that when I have to ask another adult to stop doing something, I have to stop and explain it a lot of the time even if it's perfectly obvious to me. If you've ever read anything I've posted about my FIL, you'll understand this: he honestly can't see why I don't think it's a reasonable thing for him to tease Eli about his outfits, or to talk with food in his mouth or any number of other things. When I ask him to stop, I inevitably have to explain myself (or DH does). This is a grown man, you'd think he'd know that you shouldn't tease a baby, but he's totally clueless.









It's not that I think a seven year old is incapable of carrying advice forward... it just sounds to me like she doesn't take you seriously ever, and perhaps that's because she doesn't feel like you take *her* seriously. When I was seven and a scary-bright child, I would get absolutely livid when adults felt that it was their perogative to boss me around just because they were adults. Who the heck did they think they were? There were some adults I would never have 'minded' under any circumstances; they didn't take me seriously, so I paid them no attention whatsoever. My mother, however, did explain things all the time. If she had said "get in the car now!" or something like that, I'd have done it because she always explained what was going on.

It's all about patterns. Your daughter seems to have decided, for some reason, that she can't take you seriously in this respect, so her actions reflect that. It's not that she doesn't know or can't remember or that she's faking it, she's just decided that since you don't respect her she won't respect you... So you have to start all over again and try to build that mutual respect. In the meanwhile, she'll need to learn about natural consequences, which requires very little effort on your part (all you'll have to do is point them out).


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Sheacoby, I may still not know what to do, but at least I know there is someone out there that feels the same way. I have read, and own, Raising Your Spirited Child, How to Listen. . ., Sibling Rivalry, Mindful Parenting, Whole Child Whole Parent, Sears' Discipline Book and their Fussy Baby High Need Child one, and taken a couple of Love and Logic seminars. Love and Logic has a website. They have some wonderful stuff. The downside of it is that it requires some masterminding, which is tough for me to do.

My dd is not capable of playing the "quiet game."







: Thank goodness she learned to read or that little smilie down there would still be







and not







.

Hmmmmm, I *do* get shushed occasionally as an adult. I feel embarrased about it, but I always do it. I have a rather loud voice (as does my dd) and sometimes I don't realize how high my volume has gotten. I've also been asked to stop doing something, like tapping my foot or something like that. Or I am about to spoil a surprise inadvertently or whatever. I can think of lots of instances as an adult where I would need to trust that someone else has a good reason for doing something and asking something of me without an explanation. I always like one, though! But I can wait.

It is interesting what you say about her not taking me seriously or respecting me. I think those things are true, but I am dismayed that you say this is because I don't respect her. I spent the first years of her life explaining, redirecting, offering choices, treating her as though her opinion mattered and the result was a child who thought the world revolved around her and she did not ever have to do what anyone else asked of her or consider anyone else's opinions, feelings etc. unless that is what she wanted. Her ideas were always best, her way is always best, she always has the right answer. I often ask her how she feels about things or what she wants to do, but I rarely get turnabout.

I'm not sure what happened, but last night we went to swimming lessons and she reheated leftovers for herself, got herself dressed and her stuff together, went in on her own, behaved herself during the lesson, played appropriately with her sister afterwards, went right into the locker room and got in the shower, picked up everyone's wet things without being asked, minded the baby for me for a minute, without cranking about it, and carried a bag out to the car without being asked! I was like "Who are you? And what did you do with my daughter!" Seriously, I just tried to act like it was all very normal and the way we always act and nicely showed appreciation.


----------



## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
It's not that I think a seven year old is incapable of carrying advice forward... it just sounds to me like she doesn't take you seriously ever, and perhaps that's because she doesn't feel like you take *her* seriously.
<snip>
Your daughter seems to have decided, for some reason, that she can't take you seriously in this respect, so her actions reflect that. It's not that she doesn't know or can't remember or that she's faking it, she's just decided that since you don't respect her she won't respect you...

I couldn't disagree more.

Kara, I think it isn't at all that your daughter has decided not to take you seriously because of anything you have done. In fact, I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.

Not taking your parents seriously and refusing to comply until *you* decide to is a normal part of childhood, particularly this age. My 9yo still feels that his judgement should supercede my own. He must know everything and question everything. He would *never* jump in the car because of my tone, he would definitely ask me what was going on/linger trying to figure it out himself. Then he'd try to "help" me handle it (can't you imagine what "help" he has been when I was pulled over for going through a yellow light?).

AP is no guarantee for a perfect kid and having your child be rude or disobediant or anything else doesn't mean you aren't doing it all perfectly. It is the nature of children to defy their parents- that's healthy development. Let's not get into the blame the mom game or tell her she just isn't attached enough or respectful enough because her daughter doesn't always obey. That kind of thinking can come back to bite you on the rear in time.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laralou*
I couldn't disagree more.

Kara, I think it isn't at all that your daughter has decided not to take you seriously because of anything you have done. In fact, I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.


Thank you, thank you for posting this. I have often thought to myself that at least my dd can question me and obviously feels quite comfortable doing so! Although it is very fusterating because it is an all day thing alot of the time!!


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I wanted to mention, Kara, that we can all read the same book and have it come out differently. So much of parenting in a healing way involves healing ourselves. To be GD, you must feel GD either intuitively (because you were raised that way) or consciously, because you have been working on it for some time. I'm betting that the problem isn't so much that you haven't read the right book, or that you aren't applying the books correctly, I think you are just coming up against issues that are tough for you, because of who you are and your life experiences.

Now I'm going to recommend another book, lol. It's called "Giving the Love that Heals: a guide for parents" by Harville Hendrix. Yes, it's about GD and how to communicate effectively with your kids. But he goes way beyond that. He also talks about you, the parent, and helps you figure out why certain things are "issues" for you. Usually, the issues we have with our kids are issues we have within ourselves. In his book, he talks alot about this. I think you might find it helpful. Or at least interesting! It's one I go back to again and again and again...


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Forgive me if i repeat but I haven't read all the post - I do think you can pick and choose. AP m,eans atttatchment parenting and I think the "rules" are instead more of a set of tools to help you attatch to your child. Being attatched is what it is all about. not how you attatch. Also you may not not know what another baby needs. Some really hate being held in a sling. For some family bed makes the parents resentful and put distance between child and parent. Nursing may be imposible or such a stuggle that it hurts the relationship. Each of my children have been different and needed different things. I wouldn't have been a Mothering poster mom with any of them. All of themlike time alone on the floor to explore rather than being in the sling, they all loved the swing, one wanting to be in it every waking moment. (she still owuld swing all day if I let her). I think whatever works towards bringing parents into a close responsive relationship to thier children and has them judging each situation and it needs rather than acting according to a predetermined set of rules counts as AP.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Laralou,







Thanks! I needed to hear that!! And my story at the end of my last post is illustration of how it is always darkest before dawn! :LOL Just when I think we are a hopeless case something like that happens! And I thought it was so funny about the "help" you got from your son when pulled over. The same day I pulled over to nurse dd2 a security guard came to tell me I was on private property and dd1 pipes up to explain that I had to pull over to nurse the baby. I made a strangled noise and she stopped midsentence. He started to turn around, thought better of it and kept walking. Whew!

Piglet,







I think you hit the nail on the head! It is particularly enlightening to watch dd's relationship with my mother. bwa ha ha ha! She takes care of the girls when I am working and it has been interesting to see her try to take care of my daughter "my way" rather than relying on what she did with us as kids.

Lilyka, I have always thought that you rocked!


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
... it just sounds to me like she doesn't take you seriously ever, and perhaps that's because she doesn't feel like you take *her* seriously.

Okay, I know it's weird to quote yourself, but I wanted to re-emphasize something: I never said that you don't respect your daughter or take her seriously, I said that *perhaps she doesn't feel like you take her seriously.* Those are two entirely different statements; I never meant to make you feel attacked in any way, and I'm sorry if I did.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laralou*
I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.

I would argue instead that children who feel that they are entitled to respect will always disobey and question anyone who they feel doesn't respect them, for whatever reason. It's not a matter of security, it's a matter of entitlement. I can remember spending a lot of time around adults who didn't respect me (teachers, for example) and questioning/disobeying them at every turn. They didn't respect me, so I didn't respect them; it was very very simple. I'm sure that some of those adults would have argued that they did respect children in general and me in particular, but it doesn't change the fact that *I didn't feel like they respected me* and my actions always reflected that.

Kara, a bright child is often one who questions constantly, and she may not see that as respect or comfort at all, but rather an attempt to glean more information. I was always willing and able to ask questions of anyone, because I knew that I was entitled to respect. It didn't matter if the person I was asking was comfortable with my question, or if I thought they respected me; what mattered was that I got my answers.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Eilonwy,

It's okay. I don't feel attacked. This whole discussion has been profoundly enlightening, from the pick and choose aspect, to the spanking tangent, to the children deserve respect topic. And speaking of respect I was responding to the very last paragraph in the post you are referring to (sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote, yet).

I'm curious, how old are you? Is it possible that you are an Indigo? It sounds like it. I do appreciate hearing what your POV was as a child, because I was not like that and it sounds like you were a lot like Sophia is. Just tonight she was wanting to know why children get "a talking to" when they make a mistake and adults do not. I tried to explain that adults *do* sometimes get a talking to as well as other consequences, but I think she may have been driving at the whole adults go by different rules,children are equal, children should be respected the same as grownups thing, which of course is at the heart of AP. My one nagging frustration with this concept, though, is that if children are not different, do not need to be "raised" then why do people not just arrive on this planet as adults, kwim?


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunachele*
I wish I was creative enough to envision another alternative that a mind wrapped in fear would move to so readily in that instant, but I suspect out of instinct, in that moment, I would swat a behind.

If you are close enough to hit, then you are close enough to pick up the child and move him or her out of the danger. My kids, 6 and 2, know not to touch the stove or run out into traffic, and they have never been hit. The 2yo might try to run away, but we're close enough to get him. If spanking really worked, it would only have to be done once in regard to running out into the street, or whatever else. I've been known to scream my head off like a madwoman when one of my kids is close to putting himself in danger. That gets their attention, too, and while it might scare them, it does not physically harm them. You can't hit a kid when you are on the porch and they are headed into the road.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Sofiamomma - Okay colour me dumb or something but the air freshener incident? She is just being a normal child! Yeah it wasn't a smart thing to do, and you had told her not too, but that's how kids learn. Its all trial and error. She heard you say it wasn't a good idea but she still wondered maybe, just maybe it would smell really nice. Well she found out it didnt. No biggie IMO. Oppositional defiant disorder techniques needed? Not in my opinion.

"Last week I took dd out to eat. She was crying and the waitress came over to see what was wrong. She sat down and talked to dd like she was a real person and really helped her feel better. (Dd was upset about child labor laws. She wants a job.) Dd kind of glommed on to the lady after that. She does that. Kind of gets obsessed with people. So she's grabbing the lady around the waist and not letting go. As her mother I realized she needed to be stopped right then and not let it go further, but when I tried she waved me off. "Oh, it's fine. She's okay." When it was time to go I gave dd the check and sent her to pay, thinking that would distract her from the waitress. She didn't want to leave her, and I was trying to get her to go so the gal could get back to work, but she went with her. When the check was paid, dd was hanging off her, being totally inappropriate. The waitress said she needed to get back to work a few times, but dd wouldn't let go. Of course, at the same time I am trying to talk to her too. Finally, I start counting and she lets go. I could tell by the look on the lady's face that she was upset. When we got to the car I was trying to talk to dd about it, but she was blowing me off. Finally, I started yelling and only then did she listen to me. Today we went back to that same restaurant and I apologized to the waitress, but she never once came near us. I felt horrible. I was so humilitated and also sad for dd that she lacks these social skills and I can't figure out how to teach her without yelling. My insides were all twisted up. She was pretty nice on the way out, so I felt better, but I could barely eat, my stomach hurt so much."

Maybe you need to talk less in this situation and act more. I would not have let it go on at all, I would have taken her arms and taken them off the woman and made her walk away. I don't understand why you would be sitting there talking instead of just pulling her off.

"Another example: We are in the car, dd2 needs to go to sleep. Dd1 is reading aloud. Dd2 starts to fuss every time dd1 speaks. So I say "You need to stop now, please." I didn't explain. Dd2 didn't any more talking and dd1 is smart enough to figure it out. Besides which she needs to not argue with me every time I ask her to do something or not to. So she keeps reading, because of course she isn't finished. I say "now", she keeps on I say, louder, "Now!", she keeps on and I am livid! I yell "NOW!, Not when you are done, not when you decide, when I say so!" Of course, now the baby is crying because I am yelling. I pull over, get the baby out, calm her down and nurse her, put her back in her car seat and ask dd1 to get out of the car. I tell she may ride home with me in the car if she can mind. I say I do not owe her an explanation every time I ask her to do something. If she needs to know why she can ask me later at an appropriate time. She agrees and the rest of the trip home is uneventful" I think you are expecting too much from her. Do you remember being seven? It is very hard for a child to be quiet, especially in the middle of the day. You don't seem to be respecting her feelings at all. You said you didn't explain why because the baby didn't need more talking but look what it is escalated into. Forgetting the fact that I don't think its fair to expect a 7 year old to be silent in the car you could have said, "Sweetie you are doing such a wonderful job reading but the baby really needs to go to sleep now. Please be quiet so she can sleep and when we get home you and I can sit together and you can read the rest to me. I would love to hear your book. Why don't you look out the window and see what you can see and when we get home we can talk about it?" Would that really have been so hard? In all the posts about your elder daughter your tone is very harsh IMO. You seem very resentful of her and your expectations of her are too high IMO. She is just a little girl and contrary to what you may beleive she is NOT trying to make your life difficult, she is just going about the business of growing up.


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I think it is important for people to work on that instinct to hit in situations like that. Honestly, it just doesn't occur to me to hit my kids when they are already in danger. That is probably because my parents never hit me. Same with my husband. It just doesn't occur to us to hit our kids in any situation. I've seen lots of people get over that, and train themselves to get rid of that instinct to hit. It is learned. I do not think it is something that is part of our evolutionary defense mechanisms that we have to protect our kids.

I think, too, about adults caring for their elderly parents. My grandfather has Alzheimer's Disease and has to be watched closely. We would all be horrified if someone hit him to warn him of danger. I've seen kids who couldn't even walk yet being spanked for putting their fingers in the electrical outlets, etc. My grandfather probably wouldn't do that, but he will walk out into traffic.

I guess I don't understand the argument that hitting in those types of dangerous situations is somehow okay or more acceptable than hitting for other perceived misbehaviors. In those types of situations parents' adrenaline is high, and it seems like those times, when you don't have total control over yourself, are more dangerous. A parent who is reacting out of fear or anger just isn't going to be thinking about exactly how hard they are hitting their kid. It also teaches the kid, if anything, that they shouldn't do whatever because mom or dad will hit me, not because the behavior is dangerous. What if mom and dad aren't looking? Will the kid still perceive it as dangerous? In a group care setting, I can almost always tell which kids are spanked and which are not. Those that are spanked are more likely to be devious and secretive when they do mess up. Research backs this up-- spanking doesn't deter misbehavior, it simply makes kids more devious about it.

I don't think you are saying that spanking is okay. There seems to be this need to explain away spanking as something that "isn't so bad all the time", when it really is. I think a lot of well-meaning parents hit because they either don't know how to discipline without punishing or don't understand how dangerous it is to hit a child.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I forgot to add-- many kids have died when the parents didn't intend for them to die. There was a case a few years ago in my town where a man was spanking his child, six years old, because he was playing on some train tracks. Dangerous, for sure. The kid tried to get away from him, naturally, and tripped and hit his head on a cinder block. The kid died and the dad went to jail. Did he intend for the kid to die? No, he probably thought he was protecting his child by trying to teach him not to play on the train tracks. When I worked in social services, we would see kids all the time with injuries caused by spanking that the parents certainly didn't intend. We heard all the time, "I didn't really hit her that hard." Sometimes you don't have to hit very hard for these things to happen.

And comparing degrees of abuse is just pointless. Either it is abuse or it isn't, and hitting someone for non-self-defense reasons is abuse. A large person hitting a small person, exercising power over that person (as we sometimes forget that a child is still a person) using physical force is abuse.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
Eilonwy,

It's okay. I don't feel attacked. This whole discussion has been profoundly enlightening, from the pick and choose aspect, to the spanking tangent, to the children deserve respect topic. And speaking of respect I was responding to the very last paragraph in the post you are referring to (sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote, yet).

I'm curious, how old are you? Is it possible that you are an Indigo? It sounds like it. I do appreciate hearing what your POV was as a child, because I was not like that and it sounds like you were a lot like Sophia is.









T There's a "Quote" button at the bottom of every post, if you click on it it'll quote the entire post in your reply.

I'm 26. I've read a bit about Indigos and the description definately fits me, especially as a child. Many perfect strangers have mentioned that I am an Indigo sort, or that I have a lot of indigo in my aura, for most of my life. I think I'd be kind of old for it, but hey, it's all good. :LOL

Quote:

Just tonight she was wanting to know why children get "a talking to" when they make a mistake and adults do not. I tried to explain that adults *do* sometimes get a talking to as well as other consequences, but I think she may have been driving at the whole adults go by different rules,children are equal, children should be respected the same as grownups thing, which of course is at the heart of AP. My one nagging frustration with this concept, though, is that if children are not different, do not need to be "raised" then why do people not just arrive on this planet as adults, kwim?
Okay, this is gonna sound at first like it's all semantics, but hear me out. Children don't need to be "raised", they need to be "guided". Raising implies directing the child along a certain path, while guidance implies an awareness that while a child needs to choose their path, it may not be the one which would be ideal for you. It's like the difference between "training" and "teaching"; one implies coersion, the other does not.

I honestly believe that children do not need to be coerced. They do need guidance, but if they need direction they tend to ask for it. I can't just "train" a child because I don't expect them to mind me; I never would have tolerated that as a kid. It was always a mystery to me that parents who did this were surprised when their children fought against them. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of adults simply don't remember what it felt like to be a child. I was very lucky in this respect, because my mother *did* remember. Her parents also remembered, and were generally more respectful towards her as a result.

Learning social rules is very difficult, especially when you're expected to interact with a group of the population who abides by different rules. I can remember a little old lady bending down towards me and saying "Oh, you're so cute! How old are you?" and I said "I'm two and a half. How old are you?" very politely. She was stunned, and she and her friend had a bit of a giggle about it as they walked away. I asked my mom about it and she said "It's not considered polite to ask adults how old they are." I said, "Why not? They're always asking me!" She said she had no idea, that it never made any sense to her as a child and it didn't make any sense to her as an adult.







So I learned a lesson, with no coersion: That adult rules don't make any sense, and that I wasn't the only person who thought so. And now, if I ask a child how old they are, and they ask me I tell them. I tend to abide by rules that make sense to me.

Kids have lots of things to learn, and quite frankly adults do too. (I know I do, at any rate!) That doesn't mean that they need to be raised, though, only that they need to be taught. Does that make any sense?


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Heavenly,

I do appreciate responses to my dilemmas and yours is a common one: that I expect too much of my daughter. Perhaps that is true. I really don't know. I'm just doing my best, kwim? And this is my child and I know her pretty well. She isn't anybody else's child or anybody else when they were a child. Those POV may provide insight, but I feel like she often plays dumb and I can't figure out what to do about it. I'm not so sure spraying air freshener up your nose after someone who would know about stuff like that told you that it doesn't work that way and how it does work is all that "normal." I worry about her because she does seem to need to learn things the hard way. And I was just trying to give an example that showed what I meant by not believing me about stuff. Sheacoby has a child who is like Sophia so she "got" it.

And to reply to your question why I didn't just remove her bodily from the waitress, the answer is twofold. One, I only have two hands! I am not going to just set my baby down in a crowded restaurant to physically remove my 7 year old from a situation she is capable of removing herself from. Counting was quicker than finding someplace safe to put Ellie and all my "stuff." The other part of that answer is that she is getting too old for physical redirection. When I put my hands on her I can feel in my gut that her strong muscular arms are not for me to be getting hold of to redirect her.

And the whole car/baby sleeping incident. No, I don't remember being seven. Just a few stand out memories here and there. And yes, my older *is* capable of being quiet, even in the middle of the day, for the few minutes it takes for Ellie to fall asleep. She just didn't want to stop what she was doing. It wasn't about not reading or not being able to be quiet. Very simply put she wanted to finish what she was doing, because that is what she wanted to do. Also, the whole "Sweetie, you are doing a good job reading, why don't you. . .blah, blah, blah," my dd would hear that as very patronizing. I don't talk to her like that. She's seven, not three, and she's a very old seven at that.

And I have acknowlegded already that my avoiding an explanation to prevent further talking completely backfired because I did not control my temper. That was the whole point of giving the example. I mean, Geez, are you a perfect mother? One of the reasons I have such a hard time coming here and posting in gentle discipline is because I get responses like yours when I leave myself wide ipen for criticism.

I *do* resent my older daughter. It's not rocket science! However, I do love her and want to be the best mom I can to her. That is why I ask for help and support. She and I are completely different from one another. I have a *very* hard time with her. Do you think I *like* having these feelings? I have been really upset by them. In fact, after my little one came along I even posted a thread about the dark side of mothering because it is so hard to deal with stuff like this.

Also, we have wonderful times together and times when I do do things right, but that is not what this conversation is about, although I did post an example of what a great kid she was at her swimming lesson last week.

Eilonwy,
I'll wager you are an Indigo. You're not too old. I've known dd1 was one since before she was born. As I was saying above, I don't remember much about being a child, so I do appreciate hearing your examples from your childhood. I used the word "raised" and put it quotes, because I was in a hurry and did not have time to be more elaborate. I do mean guided and taught. I guess I just don't understand why she even needs a mom if being a child is no different from being an adult.

P.S. What if I only want to quote a few sentences? That is what I haven't figured out how to do.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

But WHY do you have to tap them on the bottom, lightly or otherwise? Can you honestly say that there is NOTHING else that will work at all? I don't believe that and I think its a cop-out. I used to spank and I haven't in 3 weeks now and I am very proud of that. There have been many moments (I have two spirited children 3 and 1.5) that I would LIKE to have been able to spank but I know it is wrong. I think the issue is whether or not you view children just as worthy of respect as you. Do you view children as just a smaller human being? Because if you do there is no way if you truly search your heart that you will be able to justify hitting them. And calling it abuse is not minimalizing other abuse. If someone slaps there husband that's abuse just as well as if they beat the living hell out of him with a baseball bat. They are both abuse, regardless of the severity. It IS abuse to hit another person. There is no reason that you need to hit your child.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

No I am not a perfect mother by a long shot. I just came out putting my daughter down from a nap and my son had peed all over the floor on purpose (a weird thing he has started doing). I wanted to smack him so hard. But I didn't, I'm learning. I didn't yell either thank goodness. Okay maybe that would be too patronizing but asking her to work with you rather than demanding she do something would probably help.

What is an Indigo?


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I think it is important for people to work on that instinct to hit in situations like that....I've seen lots of people get over that, and train themselves to get rid of that instinct to hit. It is learned.

I do really understand this. There is one incident that really stands out in my mind. I was jogging with my dog in a quiet residential neighbourhood. She was off-leash trained and usually very good at healing. Well, at one point she ran out towards the street just as a car came by (too fast), and she almost got hit. I can totally recall that feeling of total fear that overcame me, and the very first thing I did was whack her hard on the rump - I mean really hard. I felt AWFUL afterwards!! And honestly, I don't think it did a lick of good - she was already freaked out by the car coming so close. But from that point onwards I recognized that instinct for what it was, and I worked consiously on it and I never did it again. I have not been in such a situation with my DD yet, but I know in my heart that I would not hit her b/c I am now aware of that reaction.

By the way, I don't know that anybody here has suggested that spanking is an appropriate or even useful tool, just that many have resorted to it when faced with a lack of options. Seems people are trying to convince us why spanking is bad, and I'm not sure anybody here has said it isn't...? Are we preaching to the choir?


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

A few things, I don't have much time.

If the intent of spanking isn't to hurt, then what is the point? If a parent has enough control to deliver a carefully placed, not-to-hard hit, then it seems to reason they have enough control to just not hit.

Reading these responses only strengthens my view that spanking needs to be seen as abuse. I think that most people do realize that it is not the best thing to do, but don't really think it is "that bad", either. The stories told are those of frustrated, angry parents. Those are not the moments that we are most in control, and those are the last times we want to be hitting our kids. Plenty of people have described hitting their kids as a "tool", that doesn't indicate to me that everyone here understands that hitting a kid, for whatever reason, is just plain wrong.

Comparing abuse is silly and insulting. A lot of people think that date rape isn't really rape and it is insulting to those who have been raped by a stranger to call it rape. Same thing with spousal rape. Hitting a child is abuse. I'm not comparing it to rape, mind you, but it abuse all the same.

I think that very little in parenting is black and white, but this is one of the things that I just can't see another way. I understand why parents resort to spanking. I don't think everyone who does is a horrible person or a bad parent. But hitting is just wrong. It just is.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Yes, you're right, demanding rarely gets me very far. I try not to do that. In that situation I was trying to streamline my request, but she may have heard it as a demand. I guess what I am balking at is this idea that she needs an explanation *every* single time, or even the lion's share of the time. That is what I am resentful of.

An Indigo is a term for the children that are coming into the world right now. Indigo refers to the color of their aura. Even if you are not into New Age stuff, the theory still resonates if you know about children. Teachers and psychologists for instance have noticed that children are different now. The sense of entitlement, expecting respect, the impatience with old systems that don't work, etc. There is a book "Indigo Children: The New Kids Have Arrived" and there is also a website. They started being born about 20-30 years ago, in small numbers, and their numbers increased until recently. The children being born now I have heard referred to as "Crystal" or "Light" children. I feel my younger dd is one of these. It is fascinating and if you or one of your children is one you will find yourself nodding along with the descriptions.

P.S. Congratulations on not spanking or yelling!


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

That's just it, Mothra, it may be wrong, but abuse is just too strong a word.


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sofiamomma-- I understand the reaction that people have to the word abuse. However, I think that many people will continue to think that it is okay, or at least "not that bad" until they realize that it IS abuse. I understand that you don't think that it is, and I think I understand why, but I'm not going to change my mind about this.

Lunachele-- I think my posts speak for themselves. I have been logical and respectful. If you think otherwise, just put me on ignore. I think you are being insulting by comparing your abuse to someone else's. I don't need something to be in a penal code to know what it is. I'm not going to change my vocabulary, which I consider carefully, because someone else disagrees.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
I *do* resent my older daughter. It's not rocket science! However, I do love her and want to be the best mom I can to her. That is why I ask for help and support. She and I are completely different from one another. I have a *very* hard time with her. Do you think I *like* having these feelings? I have been really upset by them. In fact, after my little one came along I even posted a thread about the dark side of mothering because it is so hard to deal with stuff like this.

Also, we have wonderful times together and times when I do do things right, but that is not what this conversation is about, although I did post an example of what a great kid she was at her swimming lesson last week.

Man, isn't this hard to admit. I feel your pain, I really do. I don't know how many times I have just sat down and bawled my eyes out because I hate feeling this way about my beloved child. I didn't know that a mother could feel that way about their own child. The guilt and heartache over it is awful.
Just because I do feel this way about my dd it does not mean I don't love her with all that I am. Kara, thank you for having the courage to admit this!

I am pretty much done debating the abuse thing, I now what abuse is and I do not feel spanking is it. I do however think spanking is wrong and not benificial or effective in the long run. I know you can feel spanking is wrong and shouldn't be done w/o labeling it as abuse.


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)




----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Having worked in the field of Domestic Violence, I am very familiar with these arguements. I had many clients who thought they'd not been abused because they had not been punched. They didn't realize that absue can consist of being kicked, slapped with an open palm, etc. Abuse may leave a mark or it may not. Just being threated with an object that can be used as a weapon is also abuse, even if the object is not used against the victim. And so on.

I think the fact that we are still debating over how hard and with what kind of hand position it is okay to hit a child with says a lot about how we view children in this country.


----------



## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

"slaping your child to avoid immediate danger"???







That's nonsense.

How bout scooping the child up? "Oh honey, that's hot. Don't touch. You scared me!"

Or shouting, "Careful, Hot!"

Our whole job as a parent is to PROTECT them. If my beloved child were in danger I wouldn't waiste my time hitting her


----------



## lunachele (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm removing all my posts. I have revealed personal information that I regret revealing, because I have been attacked with it. If there's a moderator here who can completely remove my posts, please do.

If you have quoted me and have an ounce of compassion, please delete the quote and any mention of me.

I do not feel safe or welcome here. I have no wish to offend anyone. I don't need the pain that events on this board have caused me. My heart hurts.

Please leave me alone.

I do not know how to unsub from here, but I will not be back.

Words can hurt worse than fists.

Goodbye.


----------



## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Hi! OP here









I havent been as involved with this thread as I would like because I guess it isnt going in the exact direction I thought it would. But hey, I should be used to that, when has anything gone 'my way' when parenting a 26 month old VERY spirited boy!!!

Anyways, I have been following the thread and agree with lots of the posters that feel that any hitting, whether its a soft pat on the bum, or something leaving a mark is wrong, and abusive. It isnt the mark that the child will remember, or even the pain but the feeling they felt that their parent betrayed them. I know that my ds got yelled at by a family member ( and yes, I had a very nice talk with that family member







) and especially since he has never been yelled at in that way before he just crumbled into tears. He was so upset that someone would talk to him in such a angry way. It was awful.

Also, getting to the OT, I think there is a big difference in saying, "OH my goodness, I lost it and spanked my ds and I feel so bad and I apologized adn I dont want to do it again" and someone saying, "Spanking is okay, and I gladly do it and will do it again". The first is someone I would say is still trying to attachment parent, hey we all mess up and the important thing is where are intentions lie. And if we are doing something active to try and change our behavior. The later is someone I wouldnt consider attatchment parenting because they are actively detatching themselves from their child. My opinion of course.

ANd I used to think that it was okay to spank in situations like the stove or street, but after reading Dr. Sears - Discipline Book I realized that it just wasnt an effective tool to curb that behavior and most importantly not neccessary. He explains a techinique of saving a special scared loud voice for those types of situations. Since your child is not used to you yelling and using this voice they stop what they are doing just to see what is going on. He explains it much better in his book







. But I have used this technique with ds and the street before and it worked like a charm. I screamed, NO! NO! STOP! STOP! STREET!!!" and he did and I grabbed him and took him away from the curb and then talked with him that he wasnt allowed in the street alone and needed to hold hands with me.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sheacoby-- I hope that you don't hold any hard feelings over this disagreement over what we call spanking, because I don't.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Mothra, I don't hold any hard feelings. I can understand why you feel the way you do. It does make me feel very judged though even if it is not your intent. I have broke down every time I have come to this thread. It has brought up a lot of pain and guilt for me.
I do wish people could understand we are not all starting at the same vantage point. Some of us have far to go in this area but maybe we have it more together in another area. I can get very down on myself for my failures and believe me it doesn't make things better. Eventhough my best isn't seen as good enough for some I still know I am doing the best I can. And I hope my best keeps getting better, that is what I'm working on.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Parker'smommy, I was just thinking about you! I was thinking it was too bad this thread got a little off your original question. I'm considering starting a new thread, but there are important undercurrents here. As I said in my first reply to you, there are people who are striving for an ideal, and as Sheacoby has just so eloquently pointed out we are all starting from different vantage points and we all have different areas where we shine. I think it is also important to remember AP is not one size fits all, and that, yes, it is pick and choose, so that way it fits your family and your goals.

Sheacoby,







and









P.S. I wish we could all be a little more gentle and respectful of each other, not just the children!


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
I have broke down every time I have come to this thread. It has brought up a lot of pain and guilt for me.
I do wish people could understand we are not all starting at the same vantage point.

























You are so right. We aren't all starting from the same place. I actually credit my pre-marital counselling with helping me be a better parent, by teaching me how to promote the inner-growth process and manage my reactions better. I am not the parent I would have been 10 years ago, and I'm sure I'll be even better 10 years from now!


----------

