# Comparing "Thank You" to "Good Job!" - dangers of praise



## seeingeyecat (Oct 17, 2005)

I jsut read "Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good JOb!"" by Alfie Kohn, and it rang very true. My 15 month old daughter already seems to be a praise junky. She's also very happy, attached, and in love with herself and her world. She excitedly claps for herself when she knows she's done a good job at something... adorably imitating our praise of her astonishing development.

I am interested in redusing extraneous praise in her life, focusing instead on general celebration and spontaneous expression of less conditional love... but I wonder about Kohn's first point - manipulating children. I certainly dont want to mould my child into someone who acts only out of concideration for her family and others, but I do want to teach her how to help, support, and enjoy the way our family works togeather. Is thanking her or "Good Jobing" her more often for her "help" of my convinience always wrong? How else do I express to her that I appreciate her work and her concideration? I say "Thank You" to her as I would anyone else, and she responds to that statement jsut as she does to "Good Job!" or similar expressions. I recognise that there is a subtle difference between these statements... but does Thank You work the same way as Good Job, in the end?

I'd appreciate any sugestions of good comprehensive books and articles to read on praise, gentle disipline, and manipulation of toddlers and preschoolers.


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## earthluvinmama (Jan 20, 2003)

How about...

"That was so helpful/thoughtful!"
"It feels so good when we work together!"
"I really appreciate that!"

First books that come to mind are...

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort

Connection Parenting by Pam Leo

Living Joyfully With Children by Bill and Winn Sweet

and of course if you liked the Alfie Kohn book,

Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I am not particularly taken by Kohn's arguments against praise. They just don't really sit that well with me, I guess. However, I don't praise for other reasons.
Here's one article that I liked http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html

This is my favorite praise quote though from the Continuum Concept:

Quote:

The familiar expedients of praise and blame wreak havoc upon the motives of children, especially the smallest ones. If the child does something useful, like putting on his own clothes or feeding the dog, bringing in a handful of field flowers or making an ashtray from a lump of clay, nothing can be more discouraging than an expression of surprise that he has behaved socially: "Oh, what a good girl!" "Look what Georgie has made all by himself!" and similar exclamations imply that sociality is unexpected, uncharacteristic, and unusual in the child. TCC 88
I think this is where I see "thank you" different from "good job." If you say thank you to a child in the same way that you would say it to an adult, you are not implying surprise that dc did x. You are telling them that you appreciate their efforts.
Of course, if you say "Oh thank you! That was wonderful! How helpful you were!!!" that will imply surprise. kwim?
When you say "good job" it seems to imply that that you are surprised in some way- that dc did x, or that they did it well, or whatever. It also assumes that you don't believe that they could judge that action for themselves.
And on a different note, "good job" focuses on YOUR judgement of their actions. It doesn't give information about how that action affected others, or the real reasons that the particular action was worth doing.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nermal* 
Is thanking her or "Good Jobing" her more often for her "help" of my convinience always wrong? How else do I express to her that I appreciate her work and her concideration?

I'd appreciate any sugestions of good comprehensive books and articles to read on praise, gentle disipline, and manipulation of toddlers and preschoolers.

I think general politeness is different. You are providing her a model of how to interact with others. You say "please" and "thank-you" at appropriate times.

Have you read "Unconditional Parenting?" It gives a few specific examples how how to deal with this issue. And, I just started "Punished By Rewards," by Kohn. It's very good...and very detailed!!

Example he gives...he sees a child who has created a paper snowflake. The Mom instantly gushes about how great it is and how beautiful etc, etc. Kohn asks the boy, "what do you think of your snowflake?" The boy responds that he doesn't like it that much and wishes it were bigger.

Try pointing out something specific about what she's done.

Instead of "Good job for sharing your brownie with Emily."

Try, "What made you share your brownie with Emily when you didn't have to?"

I'm enjoying getting my brain wrapped around his books. They are not super specific, which is frustrating. But, Kohn comments that he did this on purpose. So, each parent would respond authentically to each individual child.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nermal* 
I certainly dont want to mould my child into someone who acts only out of concideration for her family and others, but I do want to teach her how to help, support, and enjoy the way our family works togeather. Is thanking her or "Good Jobing" her more often for her "help" of my convinience always wrong? How else do I express to her that I appreciate her work and her concideration? I say "Thank You" to her as I would anyone else, and she responds to that statement jsut as she does to "Good Job!" or similar expressions. I recognise that there is a subtle difference between these statements... but does Thank You work the same way as Good Job, in the end?

I'd appreciate any sugestions of good comprehensive books and articles to read on praise, gentle disipline, and manipulation of toddlers and preschoolers.


I think not saying "Thank YOu" out of some "theory" about "junkies" is the saddest thing I have ever heard!

Of course I DO want to raise children who act (not only, but often) out of consideration for her family and others!!!!!!!!!


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I agree with the others. I thank DS all the time, just as I would thank an adult if they helped me carry a box into the PO, or brought me my shoes when I was looking for them









If we're struggling, say, with getting a diaper on, and DS decides to come sit on the diaper finally, I might say, "Thank you for cooperating, I appreciate that." or "We get things done a lot faster when you cooperate with Mama, thank you!" or whatever.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I try to avoid praise, but I think saying "thank you" is fine, and I do it. Praise can make a child feel judged, or it can make a child feel you love her more when she does what you want, or it can make her focus on acting helpful for selfish reasons (to get more praise) instead of thinking about how her actions affect others. I don't think "thank you" is as likely to cause any of those problems, as long as it's not an over-the-top, "Oh, thank you, thank you, that was so wonderful!" It shows the child that what she did was helpful to you, and that's information you want her to have. But I don't think it usually gives the impression that what the child did is having a big effect on your feelings about her.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

We say Thank You a lot in our house. I thank DH for making supper (which he does every night). I thank the kids for clearing the table, even though it has been their job for years. Like someone else mentioned, I say things like "the job goes a lot faster when we all work together".

Instead of "Good job", I say things like "I can see you really worked hard on that", or comment on a specific part of the job. I have tried very hard not to use "good boy" to my sons - to me it seems to imply that he is a "bad boy" at other times. When they tell me about something wonderful they have done, I say things like "How does that make you feel?" or "You look like you're really proud of that accomplishment".


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

i agree with PPs about thank you being generally fine. we say thank you as a routine acknowledgement that someone did something helpful for someone else, even if it was expected.

we don't use thank you for achievements or acts - no "thank you for taking your first steps" or "thank you for making a pretty painting" right?? so i don't even really see "thank you" as a praise.

i think the authentic reaction is what i strive for, not the automatic reaction - if i really appreciate something, thank you is an authentic reaction. if i approve of something DS did, i can usually find a more authentic reaction than "good job" and i think that authentic reaction will be more meaningful to him. sometimes if i'm just too excited not to praise, i'll just straight out say "i'm so excited that you figured out how to do ______ !" (and then i don't keep saying that the 20th, 50th, 100th time he does the same thing).


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

Hmm, was it Madelyn Swift who spoke to over praising and how the child develops an external need for praise and how it affected the child's emotional development?

Some children shut down when they are praised for their work or effort and some don't.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think saying "thank you" is the same thing as manipulating someone by praising them.

I am very pleased that my son has begun to automatically thank people who give him what he wants. I would not be at all pleased if he said "good job!" to me when I tied his shoes (as one of my friends did when he was a three year old!) Learning to thank people when they do something for you is part of socialization. Yes, I suppose there is some level of manipulation there--but it is the kind of manipulation I would like to see enacted universally.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I think not saying "Thank YOu" out of some "theory" about "junkies" is the saddest thing I have ever heard!

Of course I DO want to raise children who act (not only, but often) out of consideration for her family and others!!!!!!!!!

I'll say!!!!


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## Lohagrace (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I am not particularly taken by Kohn's arguments against praise. They just don't really sit that well with me, I guess. However, I don't praise for other reasons.
Here's one article that I liked http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html

This is my favorite praise quote though from the Continuum Concept:

I think this is where I see "thank you" different from "good job." If you say thank you to a child in the same way that you would say it to an adult, you are not implying surprise that dc did x. You are telling them that you appreciate their efforts.
Of course, if you say "Oh thank you! That was wonderful! How helpful you were!!!" that will imply surprise. kwim?
When you say "good job" it seems to imply that that you are surprised in some way- that dc did x, or that they did it well, or whatever. It also assumes that you don't believe that they could judge that action for themselves.
And on a different note, "good job" focuses on YOUR judgement of their actions. It doesn't give information about how that action affected others, or the real reasons that the particular action was worth doing.

I think its kind of funny that you say you don't like kohn's arguments against praise/good jobbing but you give your own reasons, which are VERY similar to his arguments! especially the part about not giving info on how their actions affect others, or the real reasons the action was worth doing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I think not saying "Thank YOu" out of some "theory" about "junkies" is the saddest thing I have ever heard!

Of course I DO want to raise children who act (not only, but often) out of consideration for her family and others!!!!!!!!!

there is a school of thought, which i subscribe to, that says that children do not need to be taught to act out of consideration for others. this is innate, as they are social beings. so saying "THANK YOU!" all praisingly when your child does something nice for their sibling is kind of weird. its like they wouldn't have acted that way otherwise, without you saying that (see the other post i quoted and the continuum concept quote).

i think there is a difference between thank you as praise, and real thank you. for instance, if my dh goes and does all the dishes i might say "hey, thank you for doing the dishes". i'm not trying to reinforce him or manipulate him to get him to do the dishes again. i'm expressing genuine thanks for him doing that. i think its perfectly fine for family members to thank one another, so long as it isn't intended to be reinforcing (behaviorist) praise-like thanking.

for example, dd hands me a fork (w/o me asking) from the drawer when i say 'where did i put my fork?' and i say "thanks, honey". i'm really thanking her. i'm not trying to manipulate her. genuine thanks: "i appreciated that when you set the table. that made it a lot easier and faster to eat dinner."

contrast with: dd shares a toy with a friend "THANK YOU, dd! thanks for sharing". you could have just as easily said "good job, dd. good job sharing" in that sentence. you are trying to reinforce her behavior to get it to happen again using praise (only the praise is 'thank you' and not 'good job'). if you don't see what's wrong with that, i highly recommend a read of Unconditional Parenting.

I ask myself this: would i thank DH for this? if so, then its a thing i can thank dd for. if it would be weird to thank dh or another adult for it, its probably praise and conditional and not something i need to thank dd for. how weird would it be if you were like "good job putting away your jammies, dh?"


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

I feel like a horriable parent sometimes on here. We GD because it feels right to me. I never thought praising my child could be so harmful.
E is a VERY attached fresh 2 year old and I praise him, always have. I don't see what is so wrong with that. I just don't say thanks, or cool, or good job and leave it at that. I have always said, 'great throw e' and then clap or 'thanks for pickin up' and clap. He is so animated that he loves to clap and see clapping. Even if he is doing just a little thing, I praise the same a big thing. If I am on line and he is hanging out in his area out of sight I will sneak in there to give him a hug or yell it so he can hear.
Am I going to screw my child up for life for showing him praise. I show hi affection ALL the time, what is so wrong with praise?


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lohagrace*
I ask myself this: would i thank DH for this? if so, then its a thing i can thank dd for. if it would be weird to thank dh or another adult for it, its probably praise and conditional and not something i need to thank dd for. how weird would it be if you were like "good job putting away your jammies, dh?"









:

I read Continuum Concept when ds1 was a baby and have followed her advice about praise.


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## earthluvinmama (Jan 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
I feel like a horriable parent sometimes on here. We GD because it feels right to me. I never thought praising my child could be so harmful.
E is a VERY attached fresh 2 year old and I praise him, always have. I don't see what is so wrong with that. I just don't say thanks, or cool, or good job and leave it at that. I have always said, 'great throw e' and then clap or 'thanks for pickin up' and clap. He is so animated that he loves to clap and see clapping. Even if he is doing just a little thing, I praise the same a big thing. If I am on line and he is hanging out in his area out of sight I will sneak in there to give him a hug or yell it so he can hear.
Am I going to screw my child up for life for showing him praise. I show hi affection ALL the time, what is so wrong with praise?

Here is a good article that highlights some of the concerns associated with praising children Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" by Alfie Kohn


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthluvinmama* 
Here is a good article that highlights some of the concerns associated with praising children Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" by Alfie Kohn

I've read it. Don't buy it. Feels it WAY overstates its case. Have looked at the underlying research and feel it simply does NOT bear it out either.

Read "Rewards and Instrinsic Motivation" which lays out the reserach in an even handed way and shows when praise and rewards are good and effective.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lohagrace* 
I think its kind of funny that you say you don't like kohn's arguments against praise/good jobbing but you give your own reasons, which are VERY similar to his arguments! especially the part about not giving info on how their actions affect others, or the real reasons the action was worth doing.

I guess I should have said that I wasn't very swayed by his Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" arguments. I wanted to be swayed by them, but they just didn't speak to me the way he wrote them. My immediate response was "yeah, but..." (and them some thought that pointed out that his concerns were overboard or something.)
I certainly agree with his "manipulating children" argument. But the others- Creating praise junkies, Stealing a child's pleasure, Losing interest, and Reducing achievement- just don't speak to me much.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with them, just saying that they weren't really enough to convince me (or my dp).

But the TCC thing about praise implying surprise at social actions really set it firmly in my head.
And I do think that kids should be allowed, and are capable of, judging their own actions (I think that's something that's in UP as well).

I agree with much of your post







Especially that I pretty much thank ds for things that I'd thank an adult for.

eta- I like to add in these threads the UP isn't anti-praise. It advises us to avoid certain types of praise, and to *try* to avoid making value judgements. But he never says that ALL praise is harmful.


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## earthluvinmama (Jan 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I've read it. Don't buy it. Feels it WAY overstates its case. Have looked at the underlying research and feel it simply does NOT bear it out either.

Read "Rewards and Instrinsic Motivation" which lays out the reserach in an even handed way and shows when praise and rewards are good and effective.

It's awesome that you have researched the topic out and came to a place that works well for your family.







It's frustrating to talk to people that have come to their decision "just because".

I always try to look more into something when someone suggests a different concept or idea to gain more insight at least to where they're coming from. This is exactly how I've come to be where I'm at in my life right now which is still by it's very nature ever-changing and growing









Being completely honest, I most likely won't read the book Rewards and Intrinsic Motivation.
The book has very few reviews on amazon, one of which was an in-depth review about how and where the authors where very misleading. The reviewer gives specific quotes and examples. It's also $95 for the hardcover and $40 for the paperback...maybe they don't really _want_ people to read it?? Oh, and my library network doesn't have it.

I did a quick google search to find information supporting the author's findings and came up short. I did come across much information supporting the opposite. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction to some online articles?


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

I say thank you all the time to everyone, including the kids. Although I don't get the whole manipulating/good job argument. I say things that probably mean the same thing as good job all the time.


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## seeingeyecat (Oct 17, 2005)

Wow! thanks everyone for the thoughtful responces
woops... is that praise???









Oh dear.

It's really all very complicated, isn't it?
Whenever I encounter concepts like this that are beyond simple instint it makes me wonder if we actually have the tools to sort out what's best for babies. I're read the Continum Concept years before I ever got pregnant, and twice more since, and it did resonate strongly with me. We've been "ap" since, because breast feeding, cosleeping, and carrying our daughter near us seemed natural and right. Now that she's a toddler and our parenting decisions are become more complex, and more reliant on theory, it's tough. Certainly I want her to know she's loved unconditionally. We all deserve that. And I do agree that over praise belittles our efforts and skews our vison of our accomplishments. I do try not to judge people.

The term "Thank You", along with "Please" and "Your Welcome" and "Have a nice day" are important social lubricants. I've recongnised there's a big difference in the tone of my voice when I thank my daughter for handing me her sock and when she brings me some special tresure she's found or when a volunteer firefighter saves my home from buring down... Thank You is one of those terms we could afford to splint into a donzen more precise categories, like "Love". I've decided that there's nothing wrong with how I say "Thank You" to my daughter. And I'll read through Unconditonal Parenting if I find it at a LLL meeting or something, but my library doesn't have a copy, and I dont think it's worth my family's money. (Especially when I can get the important bits from you ladies for free!) I dont want to scare myself away from saying "Good Job!" or the like when I'm actually very impressed by something my child accomplishes. I will, however, focus on more meaningful expressions of celebration.

Thanks, again, for your help and direction.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

She's 15 months old.







I don't think it matters much at such a young age.

I'm always saying thank you to any member of my family although I am careful not to overuse it. I say thank you to my oldest children and my husband very often as well as my 4 yr old. They all do the same.


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## numericmama (Apr 27, 2005)

We don't praise in our house. My MIL tried to get my son (who was 2 yo) to tell me "good job" for folding up the tent. Aaargh! I felt demeaned at her tone, etc. Now, if she had said, honestly appreciating my effort, "Wow, I noticed that you refolded the tent 3 times to get it to fit in the bag right and now it does," then I would have been pleased.

I do notice when he does things and really try and appreciate his effort, or self-control. I found the book Easy To Love, Difficult To Discipline really helpful and very AP.

I do say Thank you for things just like I would with anyone else.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

To me, there is no comparison between 'thank you' & 'good job'. I say thank you all the time to anyone & everybody who helps me out in any little way- whether that is an operator who has given me a phone number, or my child who has put her clothes in the laundry hamper, or a friend who has given me a compliment, or my dear DH who has cooked a beautiful dinner.

I use good job much more sparingly. As in 'I thought you did a really good job in painting the cubby house.'. Or, 'It's a good job you thought to bring your skateboard in for the night, because it has rained' sort of thing.......

I haven't read Kohn's books, but am guessing they are heavily Ameri-centric???


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## Lohagrace (Sep 21, 2006)

I really don't think its complicated. I think for me, it really comes down to what kind of people we want our children to be. Do we want them to do something (share, be kind, help, etc.) because we either rewarded (good job or otherwise) or punished them for it? Or do we want them to do it because they know that it is the right thing to do--because it helps other people? Do we want them to not hit others because it hurts others. Or do we want them to not hit because they will get punished for doing so?

there is a huge difference between:
"Good job sharing! Thank you for sharing!"
and
"It made Lucy smile when you shared with her!"

The first one implies that the child should share because you think its a GOOD "job" to do that. the second one gives real information: when you share with others, they feel good. The first one makes the child focus on YOU, what you want. the second one makes the child think about the impact their actions have on others. the first one makes the child more self-centered (what can I get out of it if i do X?) the second one makes the child less self-centered and more likely to focus on others when considering an action.

rewards are the opposite side of the coin from punishment. You could just as easily punish a child for not sharing as you could say "thanks for sharing!" to reward sharing. this makes the child think "what will happen to me if i do X? will i get time out?" instead of "I shouldn't hit her, that hurts her and she cries when i do that."

UP doesn't say you shouldn't "praise" it says that you should praise authentically. i think thank you falls into that category as well. i have to ask myself, am i thanking or praising because i want to train my child do something for my convenience/ idea of what my child should do? or am i thanking or offering authentic praise in order to show my child that her behaviors have an impact on others, either positive or negative? "thank you for getting in your car seat" is the former (training). "thanks for hopping in your car seat so fast, it makes it a lot easier on me to get going when you do that" is the latter (showing the child that their actions have an impact on others).


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## Emmalina (Apr 2, 2006)

I have to say this whole argument does not ring true with me. I think it is important to be authentic as much as anything. I am a very enthusiastic person so it is natural for me to be very positive about what my ds does. As a teacher I have also noticed how praise can have a very positive effect on a student, particularly those who are used to criticism and are in a negative spiral (I work with high school and college students). I've seen students really turn around because they finally have a place in which they can feel successful and valued. I'm afraid I don't care if this is 'manipulation' as I'm a bit more interested in the results and helping people to understand the realities of human interaction. Society praises and punishes us in a myriad of ways, it is up to us to decide, as adults, which bits matter and which don't.

I saw an interview with John Travolta once and he said his parents always praised (seemingly excessively) him and his siblings. However, this helped him become an incredibly confident adult who was able to cope with criticism externally as he had a very robust veiw of himself. If people said 'Quit acting' he thought 'they are crazy!'

Finally, I don't necessarily compare my reactions to my dp with my reactions to my ds. My dp doesn't draw on walls, suck on plugs or try to ingest my conditioner. My ds is learning about what is safe/ok so he needs a different attitude from me.

These are just my thoughts, I'm glad these ideas work for other people and don't have any problem with them. I even agree with some elements such as 'expecting' good behaviour, that makes sense to me. However, I would feel I was being false if I didn't allow my enthusiasm and genuine delight in my ds to show.


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## red moon (Mar 14, 2007)

Dear, dear, NamastePlatypus
That isn't helpful, then, is it? I mean, YOU ARE THE BEST MOM for your kids. Overthinking and secondguessing yourself on all of it is headache producing. I dont think you need to dig so deep here....just love your kiddos in the way that flows naturally for you. BREATHE! AH! It's like with food....if your too dang careful, there's nothing suitable to eat. This doesn't have to be such a rocket science


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

Emmalina I agree with you. I think calling praise "dangerous" is an extreme statement and sounds like it's reaching back into our Puritan roots. Like you I've also noticed how students respond positively to praise. I think the lack of praise is a much bigger issue than the overuse of praise.


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## Lohagrace (Sep 21, 2006)

I'm a teacher, too, and i think being all "oohhh, good job!" is so much LESS authentic and fake for students than something like "you put a lot of work into that" or "You have really understood this concept--here you phrase it in a very clear way". that is more authentic praise. the ultimate praise--grades--has a depressing effect on students. how many times have you heard your students say "is this for a grade?" because if its not, they don't care. they wont put effort into it. i hate grades--i hate seeing how it makes student hate learning and feel like learning is a chore. i just wonder what kind of "results" we get with conditional praising of our students. i think that students, ESPECIALLY the troubled ones, need to see that their teacher cares about them no matter how they "perform". not just giving them a star on their paper or a good job when they get the right answer. how about, you are valued in my classroom no matter how well you understand this?

i love the kohn example of a parent who took a bumper sticker that said "i'm proud of my child who was honor student of the month at X middle school" and just cut it to say "i'm proud of my child".

i don't know...we all have to do what feels right for us. but i think i see so many parents offering up praise in a way that i find so ludicrous. for example, going down the slide: "good job sliding!" i mean...why? why do we need to praise a child's innate desire to have fun? do we feel like we need to encourage them? like they won't slide if we don't praise them? maybe we are enthusiastic about something they have done, like going down the slide by themselves for the first time. we could say "you did it by yourself!" or just laugh or smile. but its like we have to inject our opinion into all of their experiences...like "what a pretty painting!" i just dont think that is helpful for children to hear. that YOU think its pretty. why not ask them how they feel about it, or acknowledge that they worked hard on it? or just say nothing and smile? i don't know. it just bugs me. especially like "good job sliding!" or "good job swinging!" stuff like that...blah. its gravity. why is that a good job?


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmalina* 
I have to say this whole argument does not ring true with me. I think it is important to be authentic as much as anything.

Me neither, and I found Alfie's writing to be abrasive. I don't think we would get along.







His suggestion to me is akin to withholding affection - perhaps that's because I "words of affirmation" is one of my love languages.
"Give honor to whom honor is due." One of the most touching things my dd ever did was telling me "thank you" after I had rocked her because she was having trouble sleeping. It is so nice to be appreciated!


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmalina* 
However, I would feel I was being false if I didn't allow my enthusiasm and genuine delight in my ds to show.









I think it would be really sad for any of us to get rid of our enthusiasm and genuine delight in our kids. It's great that you show him love this way.

I recently read Unconditional Parenting and am trying hard to turn what I notice to be empty praise, like "Good job!," into meaningful and specific appreciation. I really think there is a difference between praise and comments that show you are thankful for or interested in your child's actions. For me, it's hard to get out of that autopilot mode where I praise without thinking of how to make my comments more meaningful. Maybe it's because when I worked as a teacher I was taught to do that, but I think it's just pervasive in our society.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
I am very pleased that my son has begun to automatically thank people who give him what he wants. I would not be at all pleased if he said "good job!" to me when I tied his shoes (as one of my friends did when he was a three year old!)

I wonder if the use of "good job" all the time slows the process of learning to use "thank you"? It seems there are situations where parents are using "good job" when "thank you" would be more appropriate and that makes a missed opportunity for modeling.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

This is interesting...

I'm in the process of reading Unconditional Parenting right now and I find Kohn to take his ideas a bit to the extreme. I fully see where he is coming from and mostly agree with him but I don't believe it's an all or nothing approach.

I try to stay away from giving empty praise and saying "good job" or something similar for every simple feat because I do think it teaches my children to rely on external validation but I also don't think it's irreversibly harmful to be praised for something when truly deserved.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

You know, I was thinking more about this, and I realized one reason the idea doesn't resonante with me is I am completely unfamiliar to the "good sliding" type praising. I don't know if it is cause I'm from a rural background and have lived in rural places or what - but most all parents I know tend toward being hard on or critical of their kids (be tough, buck it up, work is an expected part of life, you could do better, etc.), rather than being coddling. I can't think of a single person I know who would tell their kid "good sliding" or pour out endless "good jobs" for every single thing their kid does...


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't think Alfie Kohn wants us to stifle our delight and joy that we TRULY feel with our kiddos. I think he wants us to keep the praise and excitement specifically FOR those times.

There are times when I cannot POSSIBLY keep my enthusiasm to myself, and so I share it with Evan. And usually those times are times when he himself is feeling rather excited or proud of what he did. But in my joy and delight, I STILL really feel no need to put my own value judgments on what he did. You can be happy and proud and excited with your child, without "good job"-ing them.

Something someone suggested to me (probably on here haha) is to mirror your child's reactions. If she is jumping for joy, then YOU jump for joy too...but if she is quietly feeling pride, then maybe a more subdued reaction from Mama is better. You're STILL showing your happiness, and sharing it with your child, but you are also respecting how the CHILD feels about what they just did.

Anyway, that's that. As for the thank you being compared to good job, I think that others have covered what I would say - thank you in honesty is great and a wonderful way to model socially accepted behaviours for your child. But thanking them in an empty sort of way, trying to manipulate them to do the act again...is where it does border on the 'good job' side of things.

I thank Evan a lot, and he's only 14 months old. If I ask him to hand something over to me, and he does, I say thank you. If I ask him to move out of the way when I'm climbing over the baby gate and he does, I say thank you. When he hands me a toy randomly, I say thank you because I know he's trying to share with me.


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## Emmalina (Apr 2, 2006)

I am finding this really interesting, it is nice to see such varied opinions and from real mama's rather than 'experts' who seem quite faceless to me.

I just wanted to address a couple of things. I think that being authentic means being true to your own feelings and thoughts. I would not be comfortable with empty anything and certainly don't value empty praise. If I praise my son I try to be specific about what I thought was great, but sometimes I just have to say "You are so fantastic!" because he makes me so happy with his little face all smiling or when he tries to make me laugh. I don't want to have a 'theory' in the back of my mind guiding my interaction with him.

As a teacher I don't value empty praise with students either. I find being really specific and praising something that can seem mundane can have quite an impact. I've said to a disruptive student "It was such a pleasure having you in class today, thank you" when I can see they've worked hard on their interaction with others and worked at controlling their behaviour. It had a good effect in that the student appreciated the praise and I meant the praise. I don't then think they will never be disruptive again and I don't like to drag things up for example "You were so much better last week", I think it is important to look at what is happening now and address it. By the way I actually think grades are a rubbish way of giving praise or assessing ability, I would get rid of them entirely and have a value added system if possible









I think if you are someone who sees praise as empty or false then it is not a good tool for you, if you see praise as an expression of positive acknowledgement you will find it useful. I think in practise we are all actually using a lot of the same tools we are just labelling them differently. For me praise is a really useful tool, especially with my ds who is not even 2 so can't tell me how he feels about things yet. But like any tool it has to be used with care and with a good idea of the outcome you are driving for!


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

I just started reading unconditional parenting, and I have to say the whole 'too much praise' thing really made sense to me. I have always thought excessive praise was phony sounding and I think it teaches kids to manipulate others with flattery.

For months now I've been trying to figure out why it irritates me so much when dd says 'thank you mom' whenever she sits down at the dinner table.
It just sounds like sucking up, and frankly, I feel like it's my job to see she's fed, clothed and housed, so until she's out on her own, the thank you doesn't sound sincere.

Is it just me? She also does this thing where she invades my (or someone else's) space, or wants to push ahead, and she thinks if she says 'excuse me' it's ok to do this. I have tried to explain that the nice words don't make up for the rude behavior, but she doesn't get it. Or maybe she does???

I have noticed that many of her female relatives are also phony and insincere so I fear she may already be doomed to continue this behavior.

So as I continue reading this book, I am waiting to get to the place where he tells us what does work. So far all I've seen are the things that don't work.

I am mostly trying to get to the point where it doesn't seem important to get her to just do what she's told the first time. How do you make the shift when you know your current parenting style is not working with this child?








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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

bigeyes he really doesn't give you specifics as to how to deal with things...which in my opinion is the greatest thing about this book. He tells you the dangers of certain things, the effects they could ahve in the long run even if they APPEAR to work in the immediate moment....then he lets you work it out how it fits with your family, your child and yourself. I don't tend to trust any books (even if I agree with the theories) that say "Do x + y and you'll get z action out of your child". It's never that easy, so I like books that give you some info and let you figure out the rest.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
For months now I've been trying to figure out why it irritates me so much when dd says 'thank you mom' whenever she sits down at the dinner table.
It just sounds like sucking up, and frankly, I feel like it's my job to see she's fed, clothed and housed, so until she's out on her own, the thank you doesn't sound sincere.

It's your job so you shouldn't be thanked for it? Noooooo - this is the kind of thing that makes me worry about this theory being slung around. You should be able to accept gratitude with grace. Just because you have to do something, doesn't mean you are without merit and undeserving of honor. I fear too many children are going to grow up feeling this way when their parents withhold positive feedback for fear of damaging their kids.

Phony people - well that's something else. If you tell a child they did a good job cleaning their room, and then run in to finish the job yourself, then yes, you've been phony. Maybe you really did feel that for their age, they did a good job, but your actions have negated your words. Better to be more specific - Your bed looks good, let me help you with the dusting.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

My ds thanks me for dinner, and I've never thought anything of it except that he's following my example. I'm pretty sure he sees that I work to cook dinner, and he says thanks.
It seems like a lot of "thanks" that kids might say might not *really* be heartfelt, as they are probably doing a lot of social mimicking.

I thank ds for things that I'm grateful that he does, so I'm not worried that he's going to take that and start thanking people inappropriately. kwim?


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I wouldnt have any issues with Evan saying thank you to me.
He already tries to actually - if I give him a snack or a cookie or whatever it is, he says "TA-TA...MAMA" and it melts my heart. I usualy say "your welcome buddy" and give him a kiss on his lil head.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
My ds thanks me for dinner, and I've never thought anything of it except that he's following my example. I'm pretty sure he sees that I work to cook dinner, and he says thanks.
It seems like a lot of "thanks" that kids might say might not *really* be heartfelt, as they are probably doing a lot of social mimicking.

I thank ds for things that I'm grateful that he does, so I'm not worried that he's going to take that and start thanking people inappropriately. kwim?

that's what I mean, though. when we go out, a thanks is nice, but every night at home it doesn't even sound sincere, it's like she's just saying it either to annoy me or to suck up, which, guess what, annoys me! I am trying to figure out if it's just my perception or if she really is just parroting to appear polite. Like the crowding example, I don't care how many times you say excuse me, if you step on me every time we are both in the kitchen, maybe you should back off and give people some space instead? Like the polite words don't match the behavior? I've encountered this behavior when I worked in retail, someone keeps repeating 'excuse me' very loudly to make you look like you're ignoring them, when in reality they are trying to jump ahead in line. kwim? If you acknowledge someone and tell them there are 2 people ahead of them, they shouldn't continue to invade your space and shout 'excuse me, excuse me!' Likewise, if the answer to your question is no, don't nag repeatedly hoping for a different answer.

I am totally open to the possibility that this is all my perception, but I swear it just feels so manipulative, and I wonder if it's conscious effort on her part, or just mimicking behavior she's witnessed?

I want my kids to be assertive, but not naggy, pushy jerks. And I have to get rid of the irritation so I don't just automatically assume they're being manipulative or phony.

8(


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