# For those doubting the "praise is bad" idea



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

My niece is 3. All her life she had the whole family clapping when ever she did *anything* and saying "good job!" "you're so smart!!" etc etc. At Thanksgiving on three separate occasions she was having trouble doing some small task and she just quit working on it after only a few seconds, I had to jump in and tell her it was okay if it wasn't working and that just trying to do it was a good thing. Then she persisted and was able to do it.


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

We are not big on praise, unless it is warented of course (using the potty is the current exception, though it is fading away). But my DD does the same thing. She gets SUPER frustrated with little things and screams and gives up. I constantly tell her she needs to slow down (like when she has issues putting on her pants, 2 legs in one hole) and watch what she is doing. She still yells and throws them at me. It is just her personality. She has always been a "do it perfect the first time, or don't do it" kind of kid. i don't think praise necessairly has much to do with it in her situation. She is barley 2 right now.

I am not saying overuse of praise won't cause the issues you state, but 2-3 y/o is pretty young to chalk it up to that being the only issue.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

That's a relief. I was thinking that 3 was ridiculously young to already give up on things, because I think of 3 as the "I'll do it MYSELF" age.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I can see how over praising can become a problem but its not necessarily the cause of your niece's frustration. Just as Mrsboyko, I have a DS who gets frustrated at a drop of a hat. If something doesn't turn out perfectly the first time he will give up. My DH and I have praised him when he did something significant (first steps, pee on potty) but not for every little thing. I'm pretty sure its just in his personality because *ahem* that's basically me to a tee.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.


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## christy005 (Mar 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.

Honestly, that's what I believe too.
My 2 year old son is praised occasionally, for important things, but not all the time, and he gets extremely frustrated if he can't do it himself the first couple times he tries.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.

I agree 100%.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Some kids are just perfectionists. I remember DD2 not even TRYING something until she was sure she could master it. She took her first steps at 13mo, after she'd learned how to stand up without holding onto anything. She never wobbled and fell- she was VERY steady on her feet before she even attempted those steps. Then about 2-3 days later she was toddling everywhere. Both of her siblings took the first steps as soon as they were able, when crawling was still faster and more efficient for them. DD1 didn't walk well for about 2 months after those first steps.

For a 3yo to get easily frustrated is NOT necesarily a sign of "being over praised"- especially at a holiday when there's so much more excitement and distraction than usual. She's likely a lot more patient at home during her normal routine.


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.

Sapphire_chan's point is that praise _has_ been overused in her niece's case.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
Sapphire_chan's point is that praise _has_ been overused in her niece's case.


in the example given i don't see the child as needing praise to succeed, but rather encouragement. imo, there is a difference between the two.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
Sapphire_chan's point is that praise _has_ been overused in her niece's case.


You know, maybe it has and maybe it hasn't.

But, my dd, when 3, had a lot of behavioral issues. She refused to speak to many relative, certainly never hugged or kissed most relatives, and had huge-enormous tantrums several times a day. My SIL, who is not AP and did not agree with my parenting, could easily have written a "for those doubting that GD is a bunch of phooey" post on a mainstream board.

The truth of the matter is, 3 yo's have their own personalities, parenting is t-o-u-g-h, and sometimes children respond better to the help of a person other than the parent. It sounds like this child has a lot of people who love her very much, and, while they may not be perfect, she is a lucky girl and will probably be fine.

I am still very unconvinced that praise is always bad. I will continue to enthusiastically celebrate my dc's acheivements with them.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.

I agree I can come in from the other side I was brought up in the home where I was sosposed to just have "self pride" the act of completion or the self sasitifaction of reaching another goal was always sospsoed to me enough. If I ever asked in any form.. "did I do good?" it was always met with how do you thnk you did? The result I ended up second guessing EVERYTHING I still do this today I'm all for self sastification but sometimes I really really just needed/need to here a simple "good job" way to go.

Deanna


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

I'm a fan of Alfie Kohn, but I do not make any effort to withhold or conceal an honest, spontaneous expression of enthusiasm or delight in DS or his behavior. I do make an effort to refrain from positive feedback as a form of manipulation ("You are doing a great job sharing!"), and frankly it can be hard sometimes to navigate the line between attempting to control behavior and true discipline (patiently fostering learning from within your child).

I do like the concept of "descriptive praise" as presented in How to Talk So Kids Will Listen... In this way parents can offer encouragement and support while emphasizing self-evaluation rather than external judgement.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

We use praise but we use specific praise. Example; instead of just saying "good job!" when DS shows me a drawing I say something like, "I love the way you drew xyz part" or "I love this color that you use here".
I don't think never praising kids is a good idea. Who doesn't like to be recognized for their accomplishments? Unless I'm misunderstanding this philosophy of no praise.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Wow, lots of discussion, I win!

More info, this was a change in behavior for my niece. And for one of the things, she didn't stop trying until I had something like "hmm, it doesn't look like it's going in that way."


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:

That's a relief. I was thinking that 3 was ridiculously young to already give up on things, because I think of 3 as the "I'll do it MYSELF" age.
For dd1, 2 was the "I do it myself!" stage. 3 is now the, " But I CAN'T" stage, even when she's done it plenty of times before. My neighbor warned me about it last summer and I just nodded and smiled while thinking "Well, maybe for her kid, but dd1 is so independent and has such great concentration, I really don't see her doing that." Rule number 1 in parenting, never say never. Rule number 2 would be anecdote does not = data.


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I agree I can come in from the other side I was brought up in the home where I was sosposed to just have "self pride" the act of completion or the self sasitifaction of reaching another goal was always sospsoed to me enough. If I ever asked in any form.. "did I do good?" it was always met with how do you thnk you did? The result I ended up second guessing EVERYTHING I still do this today I'm all for self sastification but sometimes I really really just needed/need to here a simple "good job" way to go

Thanks for sharing that about the way you were raised - it really helps to see the other side of the picture, especially since there are apparently very few adults who grew up like that and want to talk about it. I always wonder how kids will internalize praise or lack thereof, and yours is an interesting example. You really were simply looking for someone else's opinion of your work and were denied it, causing you to doubt that your work was even worthy of their opinion. Interesting.

I'm with krystyn33 that genuine responses of delight should never be concealed from our children. My son does things daily that surprise and delight me, and I think my sincere responses are wonderful feedback for him. I think that having that attitude with him since he was born (he is 3 now) has helped shape him into the confident, creative little person he is today. He's not afraid to make mistakes or try, and he is proud of his own achievements and enjoys sharing them with us. Who could ask for more than that?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chimpmandee* 
I'm with krystyn33 that genuine responses of delight should never be concealed from our children.

Absolutely. But they should be real, not just "Yay!! Good job!!" I think "wow! you did it!" has a different feel than "yay! Good for you!"


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Absolutely. But they should be real, not just "Yay!! Good job!!" I think "wow! you did it!" has a different feel than "yay! Good for you!"

Sometimes I really truly needed the "Good job" not a wow you did it (depending of course) but in the end it was the honestly I needed more than specific words. My parents weren't mean or withdrawn but they spent a lot of times wanting me to evulate myself. How dod you feel you did how do you think you can improve are you happy ect.. so "now" if I get a WOW look at what you did and I'm myself am not 100% sasitified it feels fake to me and it hard to appreciate the complement. 0What made it really hard was my mother especially would show praise (genuine not sappy overdone) with her preschoolers just not with me or my brother which really made both of doubt ourselfs a lot.

Deanna


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Sorry, I meant "wow" more like "awesome." A spontaneous "that's really cool" rather than just "good job" "good job" "good job".

I like the idea of unconditional parenting--that the child just *knows* that they are loved success, failure, averageness without all the little verbal reminders we need with other relationships. As someone who was raised with parents who didn't succeed at that, can you point to anything in particular that might've lead to you needing reassurance? Of course, just having other kids around regularly getting praise while you get "I don't know, how do *you* feel?" probably would be enough to cause doubts about how your parents think of you.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

We use praise when we feel excited about something. I have zero problems with sincere praise. I don't think the situation you describe has anything to do with the proving praise is bad.

My son has been praised with regularity and sometimes gives up and sometimes asks for help and sometimes does things on his own. If it is a task we've seen him do before and he asks for help, we remind him that he can do it and praise him (with a kiss on the cheek or a hug) when he does.

Yesterday he did the sign for 'friend' for the first time and my husband and I pretty near jumped up and down (and meant it) because we've been working on it for a while. I don't think a bland statement of fact would have been appropriate.

Basically, if you mean it, praise is good. I don't care what the so-called experts say.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I don't have to book, but there was a line that I'll paraphrase in Unconditional Parenting that finally made me comfortable with the principle that gets translated to "praise is bad." It's something like: "we don't have to stop being positive, we just need to be unconditionally positive."

That makes total sense to me, and it's what I try to do. I think that's very in line with the ideas in several posts about, about celebrating and being enthusiastic. Enthusiasm isn't to be avoided at all; IMO the "praise" part (to just deal in the semantics) is when we are conditional with our enthusiasm.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhaleinGaloshes* 
Enthusiasm isn't to be avoided at all; IMO the "praise" part (to just deal in the semantics) is when we are conditional with our enthusiasm.


I can get behind that (but I think we are fooling ourselves if we can be unconditionally positive, and if we think we can completely, or necessarily should, exclude judgment from our interactions with our dc).

I can't imagine not cheering on my kids, even for things that other people think are mundane. A lot of the time, I am just reacting to the expression on _their_ face that says "Look what I did!" with my own "Fantastic!"







: What can I say, they genuinely do thrill me and I let it all out


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Absolutely. But they should be real, not just "Yay!! Good job!!" I think "wow! you did it!" has a different feel than "yay! Good for you!"


I agree! I use the "wow, you did it" line a lot out of genuine surprise when DS masters a new skill. Or just "look at all the colors in that picture!" with excitement.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

As someone who was raised with parents who didn't succeed at that, can you point to anything in particular that might've lead to you needing reassurance?








I just needed to hear it I'm not talking 52 times a day or for every tiny thing I have /had a lot of confidence but sometimes I just needed some darn feed back. If I said hey mom can you check over my math homework then thats what I needed I needed her to just mark what was wrong and help me. I didn't need the constant well are you happy with this are you sure this is what you want as an answer for number 5.. When I got back my test I didn't need so are you happy with a 95 or so how does this make you feel..







Just once in a while it would have been benificial to hear you should feel proud or more importantly I AM PROUD of YOU. I never felt like I made my parents proud of me they are today shocked that my brother and I felt this way they just assumed that our self confidence was enough.
Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

BTW sadly my DB way of processing this is to be unpraising to the extreme he spends all the time pointing out to his kids how they can improve. He doesn't think hes being mean or anything he just sees it as honest feed back. So like in our child hood if we held up a painting and said Mommy Look Isn't it beautiful? the answer was always something like. WOW you sure used lots of colors or look at those brush strokes! and how do you like it?.. SO now if his kids say daddy look isn't it pretty? He will just matter of fact say well you used lts of colors that blue looks kinda pale but the red is very thick you got some green on that yellow flower was that on purpose.. It seems fine for a 5 year old (or whatever)







Then when they







he wonders why they can't jsut be happy with them selfs.

Deanna


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.

I agree. Also, I think you can't get an accurate idea of what a child is like by observing them for one day.


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
I'm a fan of Alfie Kohn, but I do not make any effort to withhold or conceal an honest, spontaneous expression of enthusiasm or delight in DS or his behavior. I do make an effort to refrain from positive feedback as a form of manipulation ("You are doing a great job sharing!"), and frankly it can be hard sometimes to navigate the line between attempting to control behavior and true discipline (patiently fostering learning from within your child).

I do like the concept of "descriptive praise" as presented in How to Talk So Kids Will Listen... In this way parents can offer encouragement and support while emphasizing self-evaluation rather than external judgement.

I think this is actually exactly what Alfie Kohn suggests. If you have a true heartfelt appreciation, show the appreciation. But there was a movement starting in the 70s and 80s, and it seems to be dying down, to say, "good job!" to every single thing a kid did. And to give manipulative praise every time a kid did anything to get them to keep doing what you want. And I do think *that* creates praise junkies. But showing true appreciation and joy, particularly if using descriptive praise rather than vague "good job!" is not really the same thing. Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so he's talking about using praise as a reward, not about sharing joy and appreciation.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

I know I'm not exactly on the AP curve here most of the time, but I have no problems with letting my DS know that I think he's doing or has done something good.
I have no problems telling him how much I appreciate it when he (finally) chooses to share something. Yes, I want him to keep doing it. I want him to want to do it, and I want him to know that, in general, he will be liked by others for doing it. I don't see the problem with that. I still love him when he doesn't, but I am always happy when he does. Yes I want him to be proud of himself just for being who he is. But I think it's unrealistic to expect that our opinions of our children don't matter. Of course they do! He feels good about himself when he does well, but he also wants ME to feel good about him too, it's natural to want your parents' acceptance and praise. If we're here to point out what behavior is unacceptable, why can't we point out when behavior is commendable?
For some background, my dad didn't go to my high school graduation. His rationale was that it should not be a big deal, it should be expected. I always expected to graduate, but I was still very happy to have completed that chapter of my life, and I was upset and bitter for years that he didn't even bother to come. He never bothered to say a kind word to me until I was older, and I always feel worthless and stupid when I'm around him. I avoid visiting him mainly for this reason. That and I don't want to have done to my husband and children what was done to me.
The point is that your opinion MATTERS to your child, whether you want it to or not. Yes he should be proud of himself, and know that he has worth no matter what others think, but he is still going to look to you to help him determine his worth, always. I think too much praise is less likely to make him feel unvalued as a person than too little.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

My dp and I joke around a lot with talking to each other the way some things suggest talking to kids and see how it makes us feel for instance if I made dinner and dp said to me
"wow you used a lot of cumin in this" (try saying it flatly or excitedly both ways it just sounds weird)

I would probably tell him to make his own dinner next time and storm out of the room. Because it doesn't sound like approval or support to me. Ya know?

So I wonder sometimes if "you sure used a lot of blue in this painting" is kinda the same thing yk?


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## cishi (Jan 1, 2009)

Praising kids for their good behavior motivates them to continue and maintain such attitude. Just don't overdo it...


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
You know, maybe it has and maybe it hasn't.

But, my dd, when 3, had a lot of behavioral issues. She refused to speak to many relative, certainly never hugged or kissed most relatives, and had huge-enormous tantrums several times a day. My SIL, who is not AP and did not agree with my parenting, could easily have written a "for those doubting that GD is a bunch of phooey" post on a mainstream board.

The truth of the matter is, 3 yo's have their own personalities, parenting is t-o-u-g-h, and sometimes children respond better to the help of a person other than the parent. It sounds like this child has a lot of people who love her very much, and, while they may not be perfect, she is a lucky girl and will probably be fine.

I am still very unconvinced that praise is always bad. I will continue to enthusiastically celebrate my dc's acheivements with them.

What she said. DS really responds really well to praise, and I love to give it.

Quote:

I agree. Also, I think you can't get an accurate idea of what a child is like by observing them for one day.
I also agree a lot with this. Until you've parented a toddler, and worked through that age where they have to do it themselves, but get so emotional about EVERYTHING, it's really hard to make a judgement about somebody else over praising their child.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think this is actually exactly what Alfie Kohn suggests. If you have a true heartfelt appreciation, show the appreciation. But there was a movement starting in the 70s and 80s, and it seems to be dying down, to say, "good job!" to every single thing a kid did. And to give manipulative praise every time a kid did anything to get them to keep doing what you want. And I do think *that* creates praise junkies. But showing true appreciation and joy, particularly if using descriptive praise rather than vague "good job!" is not really the same thing. Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so he's talking about using praise as a reward, not about sharing joy and appreciation.

This makes alot of sense.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
My dp and I joke around a lot with talking to each other the way some things suggest talking to kids and see how it makes us feel for instance if I made dinner and dp said to me
"wow you used a lot of cumin in this" (try saying it flatly or excitedly both ways it just sounds weird)

I would probably tell him to make his own dinner next time and storm out of the room. Because it doesn't sound like approval or support to me. Ya know?

So I wonder sometimes if "you sure used a lot of blue in this painting" is kinda the same thing yk?


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Thank you to the mamas on the thread who shared personal experiences regarding this subject. It really made me think about my approach.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
My niece is 3. All her life she had the whole family clapping when ever she did *anything* and saying "good job!" "you're so smart!!" etc etc. At Thanksgiving on three separate occasions she was having trouble doing some small task and she just quit working on it after only a few seconds, I had to jump in and tell her it was okay if it wasn't working and that just trying to do it was a good thing. Then she persisted and was able to do it.


See... I remember my DD going through that stage for a while, and we do praise regularly here. I think it may be personality.

Once she got closer to age 4, her ability to focus and persist on a task, even when it wasn't working, definitely got longer.

I believe personality is at greater work here than mom saying "good job" when kid does a good job, or "you're so smart" when child does something that demonstrates intelligence. And if a child shows a proclivity towards being easily frustrated, then perhaps giving them smaller, less challenging tasks which can be completed, and moving from there at their ability level to slightly more complex & time comsuming jobs, to me, is better than stopping praise for the work they DO get done on their own.

I understand not giving empty praise... but if a kid does a good job, then I say good job.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ks Mama* 
See... I remember my DD going through that stage for a while, and we do praise regularly here. I think it may be personality.

Once she got closer to age 4, her ability to focus and persist on a task, even when it wasn't working, definitely got longer.

I believe personality is at greater work here than mom saying "good job" when kid does a good job, or "you're so smart" when child does something that demonstrates intelligence. And if a child shows a proclivity towards being easily frustrated, then perhaps giving them smaller, less challenging tasks which can be completed, and moving from there at their ability level to slightly more complex & time comsuming jobs, to me, is better than stopping praise for the work they DO get done on their own.

I understand not giving empty praise... but if a kid does a good job, then I say good job.

I'm the same way.

I missed you "K"!


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

we praise our DD when she does things that are hard or take work for _her_. she started walking at 7.5 mths, knew and used more than 100 words when she was 16 mnts, etc, but these were thing that just came naturally to her.

we praise her when she follows a directions she doesn't really want to (not a parade, or anything, just a sincere "i know it was hard for you to do xyz. thank you for listening to my words.") or when she shows empathy ("it made your friend feel better when you gave her a hug after she got hurt. that was very kind.") but we try to be specific, and not to over praise her for things that just come naturally to her.

i think that kids want and need to feel appreciated and celebrated for the things they work at


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I agree that age 3 is the "I can't" age for a lot of kids.

I have one child who is a perfectionist and whose first thought is "I can't". He too won't try anything until he knows he can do it perfectly. He was 7 when he learned to button. 6 when he learned to read. 7 when he learned to ride a bike.

I have another child who is persistence defined. When she learned to walk, she did NOTHING else for about 2 weeks. She learned to ride a bike at 4. She's 4 1/2 and starting to read. She can button her sweaters.

And guess which child needs more verbal feedback? Child #2 - my persistent one. She made a drawing the other day, and showed it to me. I said "Wow, look at that. You used a lot of colors. Look at that purple up there. It looks like it's a storm." Her response? "Do you like it? Is it beautiful?" "What do you think? Do you like it?" "No, do YOU like it?" At that point, I caved, and said "I do, it's pretty."

She's my child who thrives on verbal interaction. In terms of the 5 Love Languages of Children, one of hers is verbal affirmation. My non-persistent child rarely asks for verbal affirmation and is quite satisfied with "wow! look at all those colors!"


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
I'm the same way.

I missed you "K"!









Hey Max's Mom!! You too!!!!


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
praise is only bad if it's overused, insincere, or has an ulterior motive. that's my 2 cents.









:


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:

For those doubting the "praise is bad" idea...
That story doesn't convince me praise is bad. It does tell me what I already know: that too much of the wrong kind of praise can have ill effects.

I use praise with my daughter, always have. She is not afraid to try and not succeed. She does not engage in activities for the sole purpose of being told "good job." She does thing for her own personal satisfaction.

The blanket statement "praise is bad" is like saying that eating dessert is bad. It can be bad in excess, it can be bad if it is used as a reward for cleaning a plate. But eaten occasionally dessert in itself is not a bad thing.
In our family eating dessert afterwards isn't the point of the meal, it isn't the reason we eat the meal. I HAVE seen families where the kids put up with dinner so that they get the dessert at the end. This is not good. In our family we enjoy food for the sake of itself, and dessert is a nice little bonus we sometimes have. it can make us feel good, but it is it the reason we eat.

For us, praise is the same. It is not the _reason_ to do an activity. My daughter does not do a job, color a picture, or finish a chore because I praise her. But I see no damage in letting my daughter know that I am proud of her for a job well done.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinuviel_k* 
That story doesn't convince me praise is bad. It does tell me what I already know: that too much of the wrong kind of praise can have ill effects.

I use praise with my daughter, always have. She is not afraid to try and not succeed. She does not engage in activities for the sole purpose of being told "good job." She does thing for her own personal satisfaction.

The blanket statement "praise is bad" is like saying that eating dessert is bad. It can be bad in excess, it can be bad if it is used as a reward for cleaning a plate. But eaten occasionally dessert in itself is not a bad thing.
In our family eating dessert afterwards isn't the point of the meal, it isn't the reason we eat the meal. I HAVE seen families where the kids put up with dinner so that they get the dessert at the end. This is not good. In our family we enjoy food for the sake of itself, and dessert is a nice little bonus we sometimes have. it can make us feel good, but it is it the reason we eat.

For us, praise is the same. It is not the _reason_ to do an activity. My daughter does not do a job, color a picture, or finish a chore because I praise her. But I see no damage in letting my daughter know that I am proud of her for a job well done.











very well put! i absolutely agree!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I agree with the pp's that said that 3 can be the perfectionist age. lol. My ds wouldn't color at all, because he couldn't stay totally in the lines. And I had never used praise at all in response to staying in the lines, etc.
So the op could have been due to praise, or it could have just been the lo. hehe

This is basically my praise philosophy in a nutshell http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...nt/W00009.html

I want DS to be able to praise himself. I don't want it to HAVE to come from an external source (ie: me). So when he says "I did a good job on that picture!" (not sure where he got that phrase from- it wasn't me!) I agree with him, and say it is fantastic! But the point is, that HIS evaluation of himself came first, kwim?

Other than that, I've always told him how his actions affect others, and described what he did, and used words like "cool" and "neat". Except when it comes to art - I never felt right NOT using praise type words for art. I try to gauge his thoughts on his art, then go from there, but I do use evaluative terms (very nice, pretty, "I like it!" etc).


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
I agree with the pp's that said that 3 can be the perfectionist age. lol. My ds wouldn't color at all, because he couldn't stay totally in the lines. And I had never used praise at all in response to staying in the lines, etc.
So the op could have been due to praise, or it could have just been the lo. hehe

Yeah...this story isn't convincing in itself, because it could be other things. I was always a perfectionist child, so I totally know about that giving up, and lemme tell ya, no amount of praise would convince me to keep going if I thought I couldn't do something right. I still struggle with that. Learning new things has always come easily to me, so if I have to struggle with something new even a smidge, I'm ready to throw in the towel because "I can't do it." It could very easily be a personality trait for your niece.


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## smibbo (Jan 14, 2009)

there's a serious difference between affirmations of character and praise of accomplishment. I think the problem that Kohn was addressing (whether he clarified it or not, I didn't read his book though I've read a lot about it) is that too often parents confuse the two. your child shouldn't be hearing "you're such a good boy!" just because he mastered a new skill. he should hear "great job! you ____ed!" or whatever variant. He should hear "you are sooo sweet to your brother!" or "you played so quietly! I liked that!"
But giving affirmations of character are something you do naturally because you love them and want to build self-esteem. Those should be spontaneous and not attached to any particular actions.

"good job!" is not the same as "you're a good boy!"
and they certainly should not be used for cross-purposes.

I think its unnatural to withhold praise just as it is unnatural to withhold affirmations of character. I think sometimes people ascribe motivations and psychological events that are far too sophisticated for children.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Though I was just thinking- if a child hears praise a lot, it could make it seem like the result is all that matters, and that the process is unimportant. It seems logical to me that it could result in a child not trying very hard when they might fail. (because what matters most, in their mind, is finishing it correctly).

So it could be either way.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
That's a relief. I was thinking that 3 was ridiculously young to already give up on things, because I think of 3 as the "I'll do it MYSELF" age.

You know what, my son is almost 6, and he JUST started this behavior recently. I'd say in the past 6 months. He's also learning perserverance now. Toddlers go through a "my do it" stage. However, with their short attention spans, giving up after 30 seconds is totally normal.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Frustration is normal for kids whether they get praise or not, it is a human reaction. Sometimes kids do get frustrated with a task and stop it not because they need encouragement or praise, but because they realize that the task is to hard or because they are frustrated and need a break. Encouragement does help some children to go on and complete a task and it is great that your encouragement helped her to be successful at a hard task. I bet she feels proud of herself for accomplishing a hard task. I think your example shows how important encouragement can be when you are having a hard time with a task.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so he's talking about using praise as a reward, not about sharing joy and appreciation.

I'm still new around here, so I'm not familiar with all of the books and terms sometimes. What do you mean that Kohn is an anti-behaviorist? I know he wrote unconditional Parenting (I haven't read it yet) but wouldn't using praise as reward be considered behavior-based? I'm not getting the anit-behaviorist thins. I'd like to hear more about that. Thanks!


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
...Kohn is an anti-behaviorist, so he's talking about using praise as a reward, not about sharing joy and appreciation.

I agree, 100%. The definition of 'praise' is technically "to express a favorable judgment of." In these discussions, it often seems to me that we loosely use the word 'praise' to mean any expression that is remotely positive or warm, to include enthusiasm, encouragement, appreciation etc.

It may actually be somewhat telling that the absence of praise is interpreted by so many of us to be the absence of positivity entirely.

I believe, and Kohn says in his book, that one can be positive, loving, excited and supportive without passing judgment.


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

Ruthla said:


> Some kids are just perfectionists. I remember DD2 not even TRYING something until she was sure she could master it. She took her first steps at 13mo, after she'd learned how to stand up without holding onto anything. She never wobbled and fell- she was VERY steady on her feet before she even attempted those steps. Then about 2-3 days later she was toddling everywhere.
> 
> 
> > DS1 is just like this. He didn't walk until one day he just took off across the room at about 13 months. He didn't talk until he was about two and his words came out in sentences. He is very very safety conscious and has excellent spatial awareness. He is very hard on himself, and wants so bad to get everything right and be able to do everything well. He is just now starting to dress and undress himself and gets very upset when he can't figure it out right away. He doesn't give up for good... he will come back and try again after he has taken a break, but encouragement with him goes a long way... or just helping him slow down and take it one step at a time since he gets so frustrated so quickly. He takes after his mom, I guess.


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## emmaegbert (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
I'm still new around here, so I'm not familiar with all of the books and terms sometimes. What do you mean that Kohn is an anti-behaviorist? I know he wrote unconditional Parenting (I haven't read it yet) but wouldn't using praise as reward be considered behavior-based? I'm not getting the anit-behaviorist thins. I'd like to hear more about that. Thanks!

Maybe its unclear if you haven't read his stuff-- Kohn is saying NOT to use praise as a reward, because he is anti-behaviorist.

If you want to get up to speed quickly, there is what seems to me like a pretty concise summary of the position against behaviorism and praise at the naturalchild.com website (even using the same phrase "poisoned carrots" that Kohn uses in his much longer book)
http://www.naturalchild.com/robin_gr...ds_praise.html

I just directed my students to this after assigning them a chapter from Kohn that seemed to really confuse them (they aren't parents, but are undergrads working with kids).

HTH


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## baileyann3 (May 12, 2008)

"[in behavorism] all behaviors are believed to stop and start, wax and wane, solely on the basis of whether they are 'reinforced'. Behaviorists assume that everything we do can be explained in terms of whether it produces some kind of reward, either one that's deliberately offered or one that naturally occurs. If a child is affecionate with his parent, or shares...with a friend, it's said to be purely because this has led to pleasurable responses in the past" - Alfie Kohn on behaviorism

So this thought process runs under the assumption that a child wouldn't naturally share or be affectionate, but they are trained to dothat to get positive response or praise.


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## baileyann3 (May 12, 2008)

It's all about loving your children unconditionally, AND them knowing it. Using praise as a "reward" and using punishment shows a child that your love is conditional of their behavior. It's about not going to extremes, both ways. Don't only show love when your child has done something well.

In our family we show each other how we feel. If dp cooks a great meal, I tell him. If dd (she is still young) does something well, I tell her so. If she is doing nothing in particular, I still tell her how much I love her. If she takes a spill trying to walk, I tell her she tried really hard and that I'm proud of her.


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