# does divorce really screw up kids?



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Does divorce really screw up kids, or do they generally come out ok?

All opinions welcome; please just be respectful of others' opinions. Thanks!!

PS. My kids just turned 8 and 13, if that makes a difference.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Divorce does not screw up children, bad parenting screws up children. (Ok, that is overly simplistic and there are 3 million complicating factors there outside of parents but for the sake of this argument...)

To the degree that parents affect the 'outcome' of their children it doesn't (in my opinion and experience) matter that much if the parents are together or separate. If parents co-parent respectfully and work together for the benefit of their kids it is better to be divorced and happy than together and unhappy. However, that is providing that both parents can be grown ups and put the kids first.

Ok, there are tons of other factors that matter here... but I think that is the basic starting point.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

It doesn't have to. I am a product of several divorces actually, and a really screwed up family (like Oprah worthy). I was a competitive, nationally ranked athlete, graduated with honors from high school and college, was an officer in the military, and am the sole income provider in my home, supporting my family rather well.

I'm very level-headed, I have no horrible "scars". I've been married to my husband (who, by the way, was my first boyfriend!) for 7.5 years.

I owe it all to my mom, who was a stern but loving parent with clear expectations my whole childhood. She was very involved in my life, always supported me, but was really strict and upfront also. Made it clear that I was expected to do well, regardless of anything going on in my life. And I did.

I'll gladly share more...but my husband is waiting


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Well Dh's parents are divorced and I wouldn't say he is screwed up at all. I think his parents did a lot of stuff right when it came to their divorce. They never bad mouthed each other behind their backs. In fact I have never heard his mother say a bad thing about his father or the other way around. They also had joint custody, 4 days a week at mom's, and 3 days a week at dad's. His mother also married a wonderful man, who has been incredibly supportive of dh and his siblings. Was it hard on them? Of course. Divorce is hard and disruptive, but I don't think it results in screwed up kids.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

It really does depend on the parents and the divorce.


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## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

It doesn't screw up kids any more than living in a home filled with arguments, tension and possibly worse.

It depends entirely on how the adults conduct themselves - married _or_ divorced.

If it's an acrimonious divorce, then certainly that can be detrimental to children (if they hear their parents bad-mouthing each other, for instance, or are in the middle of an ugly custody battle). But it's also damaging for kids to live with two people who are married but acrimonious - bad-mouthing each other, seeing disrespectful or abusive behavior.

Some couples are able to be more friendly, or at least civil, once divorced. It can take a while, but divorce doesn't have to mean ugly scenes.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

There are a lot of happy healthy adults whose parents divorced as children.

I'm not a therapist, nor do I have anything but my own personal experiences to go on, but I tend to think that children are better off in a happy household than a miserable one. If parents really cannot be happy together, if the kids are witness to unresolved arguments, bitterness, acrimony, and household tension, I tend to think they'd be better off if the parents separated, even if it was a tough adjustment at first. And if abuse of any type is involved, they are way better off if the parents divorce.

If the marriage is dull and unsatisfying for the parents, but they get along OK, I'm not sure which would be better for the kids .

I don't know how this applies to your situation, but it sounds like you're thinking contemplating a very difficult decision.







s


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## Momma Moo Martin (May 24, 2009)

I agree with the PPs - it depends on the parents and how they conduct themselves. My DH's parents divorced when he was about 9 and it drastically affected him and he still has a lot of pain about it. However, his parents bad-mouthed each other, continued to call each other and leave nasty messages, pulled the step-parents into it, and wouldn't be in the same room with each other for the rest of his childhood into adulthood until our wedding. It was miserable for him. My parents divorced when I was around 7 and even though it was hard for me to understand I really have no lingering issues about it. They never spoke an ill word towards one another. I think the parents' attitudes and dignity (or lack of it) is key.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Divorce is no more traumatizing then living in a house full of conflict, probably less so. A civil divorce, as civil as it can possibly be, is ideally the best. If one party is being hurtful about it, then there are certainly a lot of therapists who would be capable of helping your kids deal with the divorce and the coinciding fallout.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

not mine.. they dont like their dad and things changed for the bettet since the split
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

It depends on the kids and the divorce. My parents are split up. It didn't screw me up, as I was in my 20s. I wish they'd broken up a lot sooner...at least 10 years.

My decision to split up with my ex was the best thing that ever happened to ds1, imo. It just really all depends.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It just really all depends.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted opinions anyway.

I think dh was seriously screwed up by his parents' divorce, but I also know that his mother bad-mouthed his father a lot (and still does to this day.)


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## Icehockey18 (Oct 24, 2009)

I agree with pp, it depends on how the parents handle it. I am a step mom of a 6 yo, and he's not screwed up. The mom can be a bit crazy at time, but dh is very level headed and does not 'play her game'.... But they have been divorced since dss was 9 mo, so he doesn't really 'know' any other way...
But I wil say not getting a divorce can sometimes be worse. My mom should have divorced my fathers years ago, but she didn't, because of us kids. Now, I am 'dealing' with the result of her just 'sucking it up' for us. She has moved in with us and I have become her shoulder. After my brother moved out a few years ago she realized how empty she had become from staying with my father when she should have left him. Yes it would have been hard on us, but it makes me so sad seeing what has become of my mom. So, long story short, if it is not a heathy relationship then it is probably better off ended, even though it might be hard for the kids short term. It kills me to see my mom like this and now know the pain she has suffered for so long...


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## maizy (May 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Yeah, I know. I just wanted opinions anyway.

I think dh was seriously screwed up by his parents' divorce, but I also know that his mother bad-mouthed his father a lot (and still does to this day.)

My parents are happily married. H parents divorced and (we're almost 40) still can't be in the same room together, bad mouth each other and are just toxic. I think my H is very affected and screwed up by his parents divorce and unhappy marriage together.

As for me, I have the same question you do. We coexist. We don't argue in front of the kids. We kinda just do our own things.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I suppose it depends.

However, almost all of my friends come from (acrimoniously) divorced families (including me). We are all doing very well as adults, most of us in stable, happy marriages. On the other hand, we'd all say that it messed us up quite seriously - at the time of the divorce. We were all between the ages of 8-13 when our parents split, and those were dark, difficult years. A lot of anger, a lot of sadness, a lot of high-risk activity. It took years for most of us to get over the wreckage of the families we'd known. They are not years we really like to think about now.

We emerged as adults ok. But the years it took to get there were not ok.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Yeah, I know. I just wanted opinions anyway.

I think dh was seriously screwed up by his parents' divorce, but I also know that his mother bad-mouthed his father a lot (and still does to this day.)

Yeah. This is indicative of some real problems, imo. That kind of thing leaves kids feeling guilty for still caring about the "other" (non-custodial) parent, makes them feel pulled between both parents, etc. It's really unfair to pull on a child's loyalty like that.









I let one or two comments about my ex slip out, despite my good intentions, but I generally gave ds1 as honest, yet age-appropriate, an explanation of what was going on as I could manage. (In the first couple of years after our breakup, my ex first bounced between 3-4 addresses in about six months, then mostly dropped off the map, then ended up in jail.) Explaining what was going on, without badmouthing his dad, was hard...but he deserved to know, and he did _not_ deserve to feel that the father he loved - and was/is quite a bit like, in some ways - was someone I held in contempt, yk?

I think this kind of thing is a _huge_ factor in how a divorce impacts kids.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

I believe that children and adults suffer consequences in divorce. This, however, is not a simple topic to post about and/or make generalizations about.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

I think it depends on how much tension/conflict the kids actually witness.

To kids who really didn't know anything was wrong, ie. if mom and dad were civil, arguing behind closed doors or without kids around then, yes, it could affect them negatively. It could feel like the rug was pulled from underfoot.

However, if the kids maybe saw it coming from the horrible environment full of open conflict/hostility, maybe it prepares them somehow.

Then there's age and ability to understand dynamics without blaming themselves for being 'bad' and breaking the marriage up.

And gender dynamics.

So many factors to consider.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

A couple of things I'm concerned would really affect my kids:

Living in two places, since we would share custody (as in, "oh no, the book/toy/game/outfit I want is at the other place," etc.)

both mom and dad having less money (my kids are really accustomed to music lessons, elaborate birthday parties, summer camps, vacations, etc.) I mean, this sounds materialistic, but it's the life they know, yk?

(And it's not really about materialism, because we buy them "experiences" much more often than "stuff.")


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maizy* 









As for me, I have the same question you do. We coexist. We don't argue in front of the kids. We kinda just do our own things.


I saw your vax thread.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't think it screwed me and my siblings up. My parent divorced when I was 3, yet they remained good friends and did a great job co-parenting. My dad would be there many mornings to take us to school, he was around for conferences, sport events, concerts, etc. When we got in trouble as teens you better believe my mom was on the phone with him and he came over for lectures/family meetings. He was/is always at my mom's house for holidays - so we didn't have to switch off and say, have Christmas with one parent one year and the other the next - my Dad was there Christmas morning. We did do the whole every-other weekend at my Dad's house growing up. But it was fun, and he lived in a few different nearby cities, so it wasn't something we dreaded.

I'm sure it was harder on my mom in ways financially. She had worked to put my dad through law school, and then they split and he was a judge for a while before getting out of the field all together. She was an RN, and has two master's degrees in nursing - including becoming a midwife. I know there was a time when my dad wasn't paying child-support - but I didn't know it at the time, yk? She wasn't complaining about it, and we weren't suffering, as a result. I can see how splitting up could mean a big financial stress depending on the family (especially when I consider my own marriage; I've been a SAHM for a decade w/o a completed college degree. Child support wouldn't allow us to have the same life we do now).

I definitely agree that it really depends on how the divorce is handled - whether or not true co-parenting is possible, if there is resentment on either side - badmouthing, etc., the age of the kids, living situations (like in the case of one parent moving to another state). Step-parents and step/half siblings (I have a half-brother), are all things to consider.

IME, though, there is a way to go about it that least impacts the kids. I never really wished my parents were married, even though I don't remember them being married since I was so young.








A&A. I read your post in P&P, but didn't have anything helpful to contribute.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 







A&A. I read your post in P&P, but didn't have anything helpful to contribute.

Thanks!! I'll take all of the hugs I can get.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

I think it is super complicated.
My parents divorce was pretty hard on me and my brother. I have done a lot of therapy - and am now happily married and in a good spot in my life. I probably appeared outwardly to have it pretty well together, but struggled with relationship/family dynamic stuff a lot. But, and this is a huge part of it I think, my parents had a horrible divorce. They did not co-parent, talked badly about each other, did awful things to each other, were in court non-stop, held a lot of anger and blamed each other for a lot - even though they clearly hated each other, it was like they could never get over it and let it go. Sooo, I would probably say that divorce is going to be hard for your kids to some degree. How hard it is will probably depend on how the parents handle the situation. I don't think kids come out totally unscathed, but if it is necessary, it can be handled well - or not.

A book I would recommend is called "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce". Very interesting and applicable, I found.


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

My parent's split the summer I turned 9. I have no memories of them fighting before the split (a handful from after). I think divorcing my father was one of the best decisions my mother made. Yes, I have some hurt and scars related to the divorce. My father has not been a father to me or my brothers (aged 7 and 2 at the time) since the divorce. He moved in with his secretary, and her two children started calling him dad and using his last name in no time. Meanwhile he went longer and longer without seeing us or speaking to us. He often moved (cities and even states) without letting us know. My mother also screwed up a bit, a few times really ranting about him to me (I think mostly with me as the oldest and only girl she felt like I should understand her position more. I think she was more careful about what she said to or in front of my brothers.)

Neither of my brothers have spoken to him in years, and this January he disowned me in a bizarre off the deep end email. He's unstable to say the least.

My mother did very very well to get out and get us out. I'm hurt by his rejection. It was really hard for her to be a broke single mom after years of SAH. Her remarriage was a hard transition for all of us. My stepfather is a wonderful caring husband and father (with some faults of course). He brought to the family three kids I am so very glad to call my siblings.

I'm not screwed up. My relationships with my parents, step parents, siblings and so on have certainly helped make me who I am today. I was a rather strong student in middle and high school. I was a very successful self employeed tutored throughout high school and well beyond. I never did do drugs, drink alcohol, or the like. I married my high school sweetheart when we were very young. We put ourselves through college, started careers, bought a house, and then had children. My DH and I have our issues, but ours is a solid loving marriage.

My father was an alcoholic. Both of my brothers have struggled with alcoholism as well. They're not nearly as on the surface successful as I am. I don't think that's the fault of the divorce. They are honestly very loving men. They're not settled in relationships at the moment, but they treat women with respect.

A&A, if you need to make changes in your marriage to take care of yourself, don't hold off because of your children.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

My parents divorced when I was sixteen and it really screwed me up. REALLY. I'm sure it doesn't do the same to everyone since there are a million factors.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Divorce does not screw up children, bad parenting screws up children. (Ok, that is overly simplistic and there are 3 million complicating factors there outside of parents but for the sake of this argument...)

To the degree that parents affect the 'outcome' of their children it doesn't (in my opinion and experience) matter that much if the parents are together or separate. If parents co-parent respectfully and work together for the benefit of their kids it is better to be divorced and happy than together and unhappy. However, that is providing that both parents can be grown ups and put the kids first.

Ok, there are tons of other factors that matter here... but I think that is the basic starting point.

That.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
It doesn't screw up kids any more than living in a home filled with arguments, tension and possibly worse.

It depends entirely on how the adults conduct themselves - married _or_ divorced.

If it's an acrimonious divorce, then certainly that can be detrimental to children (if they hear their parents bad-mouthing each other, for instance, or are in the middle of an ugly custody battle). But it's also damaging for kids to live with two people who are married but acrimonious - bad-mouthing each other, seeing disrespectful or abusive behavior.

Some couples are able to be more friendly, or at least civil, once divorced. It can take a while, but divorce doesn't have to mean ugly scenes.

And that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cascadian* 
I think it depends on how much tension/conflict the kids actually witness.

To kids who really didn't know anything was wrong, ie. if mom and dad were civil, arguing behind closed doors or without kids around then, yes, it could affect them negatively. It could feel like the rug was pulled from underfoot.

However, if the kids maybe saw it coming from the horrible environment full of open conflict/hostility, maybe it prepares them somehow.

Then there's age and ability to understand dynamics without blaming themselves for being 'bad' and breaking the marriage up.

And gender dynamics.

So many factors to consider.

And that.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

I thought that more of the research was indicating that if the marriage was high-conflict, kids tend to see how the divorce improves their personal situation and have better outcomes (than if the parents stayed together)

If the marriage is low-conflict, kids don't feel the reason for the divorce, and see only the negative side of it for them and have poorer outcomes (than if the parents stayed together).

However -- generally the outcomes (not surprisingly) are better for kids coming from a low-conflict situation than a high-conflict situation.

Nice even-handed article summarizing research and what items indicate a better outcome and how to mitigate certain factors:

http://parenting247.org/article.cfm?ContentID=646


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I haven't read the other replies.

My parents divorce did affect me. But I think that was mostly the circumstances surrounding it, not the actual divorce. I was older, 17, so I think that helped (I guess, I don't really have anything to compare it to).

I think the worst part for me was trying to learn how to deal with my parents as separate. It wasn't a pleasant divorce and they have a very hard time being in the same place at the same time even now, so it makes family things extremely difficult. And I did bring some issues into my own marriage as a result.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it's such an individual thing. I know a family where the kids are doing much better since their parents' divorce, but it was a really awful and tense marriage and anything would be better than living in that environment. Also, there's something to be said for parents being in separate happy relationships instead of one unhappy relationship from the standpoint of modeling happy adult relationships for their kids. On the other hand, divorce can be full of drama, and can be financially devastating, both of which can be difficult for children. And the difficulties single parents face, and having parents date and bring other romantic partners in and out of the kids' lives can be difficult. I suppose you'd have to weigh the pros and cons for your specfic case.


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## mekat (May 18, 2005)

In the short term my answer is yes. In the long term no it won't. Sorry for being brief I have to run take my kid to another appointment. My answer is based off my divorce. My ex got addicted to drugs and when he refused to straighten up I kicked him to the curb, hired a good lawyer and now have sole custody. The only real right the ex has any more to our child is to pay child support. I am a better mother now that I only have to take responsibility for a child and not have to parent a man-child as well.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Does divorce really screw up kids, or do they generally come out ok?

All opinions welcome; please just be respectful of others' opinions. Thanks!!

PS. My kids just turned 8 and 13, if that makes a difference.

Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but had to comment--

LIFE screws up kids. All kinds of unfortunate things will happen in life, and everything that happens in life affects our emotional/psychological development.

I do believe (my own opinion) that the best environment for kids includes a happy and stable adult relationship to emulate. But that is not always possible. And I am absolutely certain that divorce is better for kids, than growing up in a household with an unhappy and acrimonious adult relationship to emulate.

From all the people I've known who grew up with divorced parents, the worst damage seems to come when the parents clearly hated each other and would talk bad about each other, and put the children in the middle of their personal disputes. When the divorced parents acted like adults and didn't bring their kids into the argument, things tend to turn out better.

When my parents split I was 11. I did have wishes of them getting back together. But that stopped after a few years, when I was old enough to understand more what relationships are. They were very unhappy together, and their fighting caused a lot of stress in us kids before the divorce. Now that I'm grown, I am glad that they split when they did, because it was worse for us when they were together.

I consider myself only minimally screwed up


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Does divorce really screw up kids, or do they generally come out ok?


How are we defining ok?

Because most of the time IME the ok is defined as the kids not turning into a ax murderer or living their whole adulthood in their mothers basement. When ok should include such things as having a healthy sense of self, feeling safe in the world and able to make long lasting commitments to other people. Those are the things that are at risk as a result of divorce.

I think it is really important for children to have a mother and father that live together while growing up but those parents need to be mature enough to not inflict their relationship struggles ( we all have them at some point) on their children. It should never come down to a choice of kids living with parents that are always fighting in front of them vs living apart. There are cases where kids will be better off without one of their parents living in the home, but whatever has caused that situation to come to pass is going to effect them in some way.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
It doesn't screw up kids any more than living in a home filled with arguments, tension and possibly worse.

It depends entirely on how the adults conduct themselves - married _or_ divorced.

.

Yep. I was _so relieved_ when my parents finally divorced. They had been awful to each other for years, and with my mother putting my brother and I in the middle of it. Just not having Mom around any more was way, way better.


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

His parents' divorce really screwed up my stbx-- but I think them staying together would have messed him up, too.

Stbx and I have been separated for less than 5 months. I know living with him was messing up our dc. He was acting badly in so many ways, and I was really stressed dealing with him.

So far, being apart is much better for the kids. I am less stressed and angry. He "has to" pay attention to the dc during visitation, which he barely did before. And he "has to" give me money to take care of them now, instead of blowing it.

My dc are happy that their dad is actually spending time with them and that their mom is less tightly wound.


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## MommatoAandA (Jun 4, 2010)

My children were happy as long as I was happy. Did they miss their dad while we were separated? YES. Now that we are back together and getting remarried, we live together again, they are MUCH happier for it. I think it all depends on how you are both able to parent in the situation. Meaning, if your marriage is so bad, it is making you a snappy mess of a parent, it will prob affect them positively to have the two of you seperate. Also your children are old enough to express themselves to you, H, and possibly a counselor if needed. Good luck in whatever comes about.


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## MommatoAandA (Jun 4, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
How are we defining ok?

Because most of the time IME the ok is defined as the kids not turning into a ax murderer or living their whole adulthood in their mothers basement. When ok should include such things as having a healthy sense of self, feeling safe in the world and able to make long lasting commitments to other people. Those are the things that are at risk as a result of divorce.

I think it is really important for children to have a mother and father that live together while growing up but those parents need to be mature enough to not inflict their relationship struggles ( we all have them at some point) on their children. It should never come down to a choice of kids living with parents that are always fighting in front of them vs living apart. There are cases where kids will be better off without one of their parents living in the home, but whatever has caused that situation to come to pass is going to effect them in some way.

ITA with this.

In other words, there are other options to fighting and bringing the DC into the situation. Exactly why we made the decision to be together again.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
A couple of things I'm concerned would really affect my kids:

Living in two places, since we would share custody (as in, "oh no, the book/toy/game/outfit I want is at the other place," etc.)

[*I]I help my son pack a bag ever Friday that contains what he wants. If something really important has been left behind, then I will run it over or he and his dad will come and get it. Mostly if it's just about a toy he thought about and wants, then he can wait for 48 hours until he gets home. [/I]*

both mom and dad having less money (my kids are really accustomed to music lessons, elaborate birthday parties, summer camps, vacations, etc.) I mean, this sounds materialistic, but it's the life they know, yk?

(And it's not really about materialism, because we buy them "experiences" much more often than "stuff.")

*Will they be able to do everything they want? No. May children have had a parent ( or both) get laid off recently and have lost out on lessons and camps and whatnot. That's life. Some places have scholarships or reduced payments for people who just don't have the money. Sometimes judges will encorperate this kind of stuff into child support payments. Perhaps things would be civil enough between you and your ex that he would split the cost with you? I understand that your kids are accustomed to certain things, but there are other life events that could take those things away. It's not unrealistic for your kids to understand that once a divorce takes place that standard if living usually decreases. If it's handled the right way and you find a way to not be super negative about it, then it is simply a type of change that they will have to adjust to.*


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

IIRC, the research shows that research is pretty darn bad for kids, but if the marriage is very high in conflict, sometimes divorce is better than staying together. Much of the negative impact of divorce has to do with the reduced standard for living of moms, who usually have custody.


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## Angela512 (Dec 22, 2007)

My parents didn't divorce until I was 21. I can honestly say I used to wish they would divorce...I would dream that my mom would leave my dad and life would get better (he was a violent binge alcoholic).

I don't think it's the divorce the screws up the kids, but the parenting. I know many people whose parents divorced but stayed civil, respectful, fully engaged and they turned out great. In my case, my mom didn't want to divorce "for the kids"...I feel like I am now really trying to learn how to maintain my boundaries and not get walked all over, trying to undo the "ingrained lessons" from growing up with someone who put everyone else first...even at everyone's expense.

I think each scenario has their different screw-ups, you know? Would I be a better person had my mom left? Who knows? I think I've done pretty good, but it's been at the cost of a lot of hard lessons (past and present) and I am still working on it. I think it would be the same either way, though.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

From observation and not personal experience I think it actually depends on whether the parents keep the children's needs central after the divorce, or whether they go through some kind of stage.

I know parents who have divorced and yet chosen to live within several blocks of each other to disrupt life as little as possible; not bad-mouthed the kids; worked together to provide as much as possible for the kids in the "new reality" (two rents) and not gotten into crap like "well I paid for swimming so even though I have money and you don't I won't pay for soccer."

Others have chosen to prioritize their own dating life or lifestyle over their kids' needs.

Also it does depend on the "the village." Extended family, friends, etc. can really help. Or not.

I know this boils down to "it depends" but maybe it is food for thought.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

We're pretty low-conflict but just not happy (ok, mainly I'm not happy.) But I think divorce would still come as a surprise to the kids because they don't see us fight very often.

Dh is a good father. He'd still be involved in their lives and would split the costs of what he could, but the realities are that, if we're paying for two places, there will be less money to go around for other things.

And I worry about what Arduinna mentioned..........the kids' ability to feel safe in the world. I think my 13 yo. dd would be fine, but it's my 8 yo. ds I really worry about. He's such a sensitive soul. He cried when his "team" lost in the World Cup.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I think there is no question that the adjustment would be hard on them, but I don't think they are any more at risk for not feeling safe in the world, having a good sense of self or making long-lasting commitments because of it. Plenty of people whose parents didn't divorce have those issues and vice versa. Witnessing one parent disrespect the other is more damaging, imo, even if there aren't a lot of scary fights going on.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

My parents divorced when I was three. My mother finally found out that my father was molesting my older sister. She had put up with 15 years of severe emotional, verbal, and occasionally physical abuse towards her and my older siblings. Apparently sexual abuse was over her personal line. I don't think the divorce is what screwed me up. I think that every other factor in my craptastic childhood is what screwed me up.

My husband comes from an 'intact' family. His parents knew one another in high school and married during college (they both went away to the same school and decided that they liked that home-town kid better than anyone else). My husband's mom is very verbally and emotionally abusive towards her kids and in the past she was physically abusive towards her husband. Her husband has never left her because he's afraid she would get full custody and then he wouldn't be there to protect the kids and because "you get married for better or for worse--no one is promising better". My husband didn't have 1/10 of the crap in his childhood that I had--he's not quite but almost as screwed up as me.

So... yeah. I'm still going to say that parenting is the important bit.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
I think there is no question that the adjustment would be hard on them, but I don't think they are any more at risk for not feeling safe in the world, having a good sense of self or making long-lasting commitments because of it. Plenty of people whose parents didn't divorce have those issues and vice versa. Witnessing one parent disrespect the other is more damaging, imo, even if there aren't a lot of scary fights going on.

Of course plenty of people have those issues even they don't have divorced parents. That is because divorce is not the only thing that can cause them. That doesn't change the fact that divorce can result in them also.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Of course plenty of people have those issues even they don't have divorced parents. That is because divorce is not the only thing that can cause them. That doesn't change the fact that divorce can result in them also.

Well maybe if someone just gets divorced on a whim, but many women who consider divorce are in bad marriages. I can't see how staying would decrease those risks or how leaving would increase them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I have to admit that I'd completely forgotten about the widespread decline in financial stabililty after a divorce. My mom ended up in more-or-less the same place when dad was gone, as she lost both his salary _and_ his spending habits. (None of that was really relevant to me, as I was paying room and board and planning my own wedding. It would have sucked if she'd lost the house, but it wasn't like a child losing everything, yk?) As for me...I was so much better off financially once my ex left that there was just no comparison. He spent way more than he earned, told me that he'd bills he hadn't paid, etc. Our lives were much more financially stable without him around.

That is a serious concern, if you have a husband who is actually a net contributor. I always forget about that.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
How are we defining ok?

Because most of the time IME the ok is defined as the kids not turning into a ax murderer or living their whole adulthood in their mothers basement. When ok should include such things as having a healthy sense of self, feeling safe in the world and able to make long lasting commitments to other people. Those are the things that are at risk as a result of divorce.

I think it is really important for children to have a mother and father that live together while growing up but those parents need to be mature enough to not inflict their relationship struggles ( we all have them at some point) on their children. It should never come down to a choice of kids living with parents that are always fighting in front of them vs living apart. There are cases where kids will be better off without one of their parents living in the home, but whatever has caused that situation to come to pass is going to effect them in some way.

Wow. I think that having 2 parents who are able to parent is MUCH more important than whether or not those parents actually live together. If I had stayed with my ex, I would NOT be able to parent effectively - b/c he was abusive. My child should grow up with both me and his dad in the picture, and with 2 parents who love him - I agree wholeheartedly. BUT - the big but here is that I should not be subject to abuse to live up to some Idealist notion. My son should be raised by a happy mom, and a happy dad. Now, thats impossible anyway, since his dad suffers chronic depression, body dysmorphic disorder, and possibly some other mental illnesses. BUT - he needs to have AT LEAST one parent who is stable, happy, and able to provide him with a happy stable home - neither of us could have done that if I was still living with his abuse.

I also think that kids pick up on relationship unhappiness - no matter how much the parents try to hide it. And if a parent is deeply unhappy (not having had a minor fight, but deeply unhappy all the time) kids are going to know about it - you can't hide that much emotion. Kids need to see that their parents have the right to be happy - b/c otherwise when they end up in a situation where they aren't happy as adults they won't know they deserve otherwise.

I don't think that divorce is the cause of so many of kids problems, I think parenting is. If you are able to parent effectively, then your kids will most likely turn out to be productive, happy individuals that are able to contribute to society. If a kid has 2 parents who are able to parent effectively, they will be more likely to become productive members of today's society.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
We're pretty low-conflict but just not happy (ok, mainly I'm not happy.) But I think divorce would still come as a surprise to the kids because they don't see us fight very often.

Dh is a good father. He'd still be involved in their lives and would split the costs of what he could, but the realities are that, if we're paying for two places, there will be less money to go around for other things.

And I worry about what Arduinna mentioned..........the kids' ability to feel safe in the world. I think my 13 yo. dd would be fine, but it's my 8 yo. ds I really worry about. He's such a sensitive soul. He cried when his "team" lost in the World Cup.

I don't think you're giving your 8yo enough credit here (maybe that didn't come out just right, but bear with me). He was probably sad when his team lost, and he will most likely be sad if you get a divorce. BUT - as long as both you and your dh are able to honestly tell him, "We love you, we are both here for you no matter what, and we are going to do the best we can by you" he will be ok. Be prepared for extra snuggles, be prepared for him to be upset, angry, sad, etc (same for the 13yo actually), be prepared for them to ask if it was their fault, reassure them it wasn't. Tell them what happened - don't lie to them - they'll know if you do.

Also, it might not come as big a shock as you think. Even if you don't fight, if you don't communicate they see that too. If you aren't happy together, they probably have some idea something isn't right.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Didn't read anything but the OP. My parents got divorced when my brother and I were 4 and 6, I think. It seriously was the best thing my mom could have done. It did the opposite of screw me up. My brother had/has a harder time with it.
My dad was abusive to my mom (but kept it mostly hidden from us), didn't work a lot (and spent a lot of money), and just generally made my mom's life more difficult. He loved us and showed it, and was caring to us, but was not the kind of dad you'd really want to leave your kids with all day- just your basic irresponsible stuff, kwim?
Though, thinking about it a bit more, most of the problems that my brother has, has to do with drugs, and my dad started smoking weed with him when he was relatively young (18ish, maybe younger). Also, part of the problems that he had when we were younger was that my dad favored me, and it was pretty obvious.

So I think that sometimes divorce is the best thing that can happen, and it does not always screw kids up.

eta- I should also add that I saw a huge benefit to myself in regards to their divorce. My dad was the one that punished us (spanking and standing in the corner) and my mom very rarely punished us. My first thought, I remember vividly, when my mom told me they were divorcing was that we wouldn't get punished anymore.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I think if my DH and I were to get divorced - it would screw my son up. Ds2 is only 11 weeks old - so I don't think he would know any different! lol

At the moment - it sorta feels like DH and I are 'coexisting'. Things happened pretty fast for us. Mostly, DS1. I think we would have more of a 'relationship' to fall back on if we had had more time to ourselves to build that relationship. But we fell into being parents pretty soon. I basically found out I was pregnant a month after we got married. Neither of us would change a thing of course and now we have two beautiful boys but our marriage is not without flaw. The 'D' word has been thrown around a few times. Of course, things are tought after having a baby so that could just be it really.

I just could never see me getting divorced. Even if we do just 'coexist' for the rest of ours lives. DS1 adores his father. He loves waving to him in the morning when his car pulls away for work. He waits anxiously for him when he comes home from work. He looks forward to the weekend when we can go out and do fun things together! I can just picture what a divorce would do to him. How on earth would I explain it to him as well? I can see him growing up with insecurity issues because of it. I can see him having love and relatonship issues as well because of it. I can then also see him blaming me and hating me because of it! I just can't see how it would be good for him! But then, whilst DH and I arn't as close as I would like us to be - right now - our children are not also in a home full of hate or violence or anger or anything like that. So being here, with us, together - as a family - isn't 'damaging' him - as much as I feel a divorce would. If that were the case though - I can only see a divorce as a good thing - and 'staying' as what would screw him up. (but thats not our case)

Quote:

I believe that children and adults suffer consequences in divorce. This, however, is not a simple topic to post about and/or make generalizations about.
This exactly!

What I just posted are what my current thoughts for _my_ family have been - cause things have been a bit rocky the past few days!


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

From my experience, it's the circumstances of divorce that do, not divorce itself-parents talking bad about each other, abuse situations, parents getting new families and the older kids feeling displaced in their roles, using kids against parents, changes in living situation-secure to a parent working all the time to make ends meet while the kid watches the opposite parent be well off and moving on, etc. Not all divorcees do this, but it seems pretty common in my personal experience.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

who knows? my parents *didn't* divorce, and I feel like I'm mildly screwed up. I feel it would have been worse if they split, but who knows?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
who knows? my parents *didn't* divorce, and I feel like I'm mildly screwed up.

me, too.


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## carouselrider (Nov 12, 2005)

My parents separated when I was 8 and divorced when I was 10. They had a high conflict relationship. Given the chance, I would have sold my soul to get them back together. Divorce equalled the end of my childhood. I felt as though I was an instant adult even though I did not at all understand the emotional landscape.

I'm not a proponent of staying together no matter what. I've supported friends through divorces. And I know there are lots of people (most of the people in this thread, even) who feel they were better off for their parents divorce. Objectively, I probably WAS better off - I wouldn't want my kids living through that kind of conflict. But it broke my heart and made me feel very alone and abandoned in the world. That view has informed how I deal with issues in my own marriage for sure.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It really does depend on the parents and the divorce.


Yep, I was a little screwed up in HS because of my parents divorce, BUT that was because my Dad replaced my mom and me with a new family. He and his wife had twins and I basically got pushed out of his life by them. My parents being married wasn't that awesome though, they had me when they were too young and we always trying to figure out their own lives to put me first. My Dad was a great father and my mom was kinda self-absorbed, in her own weird way.

It was better they got divorced, but my stepmom made my relationship with my Dad pretty crappy, until about 4.5 years ago when I got pg with my DD, then things changed and are really good now.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

previous posters bring up a good point, my parents screwed me up (not incredibly bad but in bothersome ways) not the divorce. My mom talked bad about my dad. My dad did not have a good foundation for parenting, so did his best, which was not great. I felt abandoned by him. He always said he was pushed away, which is partly true. But he also put the boys first, an inherited trait


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm going to go with "yes."

Generally, the children I've known whose parents have divorced have had isues stemming from it.


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## simplemama32 (Jul 16, 2009)

I think there are a lot of factors involved...child's personality, age, the situation, how the parents act, life in general, etc.

I'm about to go thru a divorce, so this is a question I have really, really struggled with. And the answer I've come up with is that there IS no answer. There is no guarantee, no way to 100% predict the future in any situation. However, you can do your darndest as a parent to positively affect your child's life. I agree with many of the PP's that, IMO, parenting more than the divorce itself shapes a child. I also don't think that having a mommy, daddy, and child together under one roof is necessarily the be all, end all of ideal situations. Family can be defined in so many different ways...single parent/child(ren), grandparents/child(ren), couple/child(ren), guardian/child(ren)...to name a few. I don't think one is better than the other, provided you have important components like stability and love and respect.


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

A&A, my parents divorced when I was 16, my youngest sibling was 5. IN our case, dad was very physically abusive (so that's what messed me and my sibs up), and there was a collective sigh of relief for the older ones of us... It was hard for the first few years, but we've generally doing ok.

But you know what, alot of things, other than divorce can screw up a kid. So it's just amatter of looking at all the factors involved.


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## chicoandthemama (Jan 21, 2010)

My husband's parents are divorced. Mine are still married. I am way more screwed up than him.








DH's mom left his dad when he was small because it was clear his father had no interest in being a father. She did it for DH, and he has understood that for a long time. She was/is an amazing mom, and DH adores her. He understands love and how it should look because she chose it on his behalf over and over.
My family is as dysfunctional as it gets without physical abuse. Simple love is a foreign concept I've had to learn as an adult, same for respect and boundaries.
If by divorce, individuals are choosing to bring more love into their families (I don't mean more partners, if cheating is involved) then I don't think the kids will suffer long term specifically from the divorce.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

A&A, I imagine I understand only a sliver of what you've been experiencing, through what you described. But in my marriage I was the one who was demanding and demeaning for a few years. I did not respect my dh much, I made 'commands' not 'requests', I was sarcastic and cutting with him, he could do nothing right. Unfortunately it's what I grew up with. My mom was nothing but scornful of my dad. However - I did actually shape up and I treat my dh much, much better now.

As ugly as my mom was to my dad, and it was pretty horrible, I'm glad they didn't divorce. I just wish my mom had got therapy or whatever so she could work out why she felt it was necessary to be so dreadful to her husband.

For what it's worth as just this mom out in cyberspace, I support whatever choice you make. Because you deserve to be happy and respected.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think it is all reletive. The statistics say "less likely to" and "more likely to" but what is more or less? more or less the who? There are so many variables. I got to the point where I realized. I was screwed up and their dad was even more screwed up (and growing up in a family with two parents who loved each other and love their kids and loved God didn't seem to give him any sort of advantage in life as far as not being screwed up goes) and they were getting way the heck screwed up by witnessing and living in the collasal mess that our marriage was...So yeah they may be at a disadvantage by us being divorced but hey they were at a disadvantage watching us do our stupid crap as well. They were at a disadvantage just by being my kids. I knew when I was preggers they would need therapy one day. at least now they have some sanity in their lives.









I am not saying you should get divorced. I am just saying even if it puts your kids at a disadvantage it is not the end of the world. My parents were divorced and my mom was crazy and I turned out right nice I think. Not perfect or even copmpletely stable by any means but I did OK. I didn't sleep around or do drugs or get thrown in jail. I went to church (even though my family did not) got good grades and had perfect attendence. I was just fine. except for my poor choice in men....


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
For what it's worth as just this mom out in cyberspace, I support whatever choice you make. Because you deserve to be happy and respected.
















Thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
They were at a disadvantage just by being my kids. I knew when I was preggers they would need therapy one day.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
They were at a disadvantage just by being my kids. I knew when I was preggers they would need therapy one day.

Slightly off-topic: My DH and I have the (mostly mental) "therapy jar." When we mess up we say "time to put another $2 in the therapy jar."


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)




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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I remember my parents divorcing when I was six and being happy that we got my mom to ourselves. She never made it a big deal because it is something that is normal in our family. I separated from my ex when dd was 3 and divorced when she was 4 and it has never been a big deal because we treated it as something normal. Even her deadbeat hardly there dad isn't a big deal because I never say a negative thing about him (when she is home) and we both treat her only seeing him a few times a year for an hour or so as normal and fine. It helps that this is how dads are in our family and we have all learned how to be single moms with great kids. My income went down significantly, but I have learned how to make great memories with staycations and cheaper birthdays.


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## sleepingbeauty (Sep 1, 2007)

Depends on the situation.

My parents got a divorce last year. I'm 21 and my sisters are 17 and 10.

I had already moved out so I wasn't in the middle of it but I can honestly say that is kind of gets to me when I visit my parents' houses and that I wish like hell that I appreciated my family as it was when I had it because I miss it every single day. Every once in a while it flares up really bad but I'm usually alright. I know, logically, that my parents are each happier now with their new partners and whatnot, but it still sucks on my end of things. Maybe I will feel a bit better with time. It's still new. I am happy that everyone else is happy though.

My sisters demonstrate both ends of the spectrum. The teenager is very upset about the whole thing. There's been too much change in her life recently and she is upset at how quickly my father got remarried. The little one loves it. More family for her!

Personally, I don't know how I'd react if a half-sibling were to pop up. I don't think it would go over too well though. Neither of my parents are looking to add more kids though. My dad's riding my ass about grandkids though! <3


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I remember my parents divorcing when I was six and being happy that we got my mom to ourselves. She never made it a big deal because it is something that is normal in our family. I separated from my ex when dd was 3 and divorced when she was 4 and it has never been a big deal because we treated it as something normal. Even her deadbeat hardly there dad isn't a big deal because I never say a negative thing about him (when she is home) and we both treat her only seeing him a few times a year for an hour or so as normal and fine. It helps that this is how dads are in our family and we have all learned how to be single moms with great kids. My income went down significantly, but I have learned how to make great memories with staycations and cheaper birthdays.


We are similar to this. We didnt make it a big dramatic thing and ex dh and I were amicable and are still to this day, good friends. It doesn't have to be horrific.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

My parents were selfish and arrogant in their reasons to divorce. my brother and I have suffered greatly. I agree with Arduinna's post about degrees of consequences in divorce.

My husband's parents have been married for over 36 years. They are selfish people, too, and their marriage lacks intimacy. He struggles deeply with the consequences of their selfishness and arrogance as well.

So what are the reasons to divorce? Where are our hearts in our marriage and divorce? What do we want for our children? I think it is really personal but I do think and see that divorce has grave consequences that our society just blows off a lot.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotmamacita* 
I think it is really personal but I do think and see that divorce has grave consequences that our society just blows off a lot.

I think it's very hard to see what the consequences are, because we can't see what would have happened to/with any given children of divorce if their parents had _not_ divorced (or had divorced earlier or later). I can pretty much guarantee that my son, for instance, is far better off in every respect than he'd have been if I'd stayed with his dad any longer...and that he'd have been better off if I'd ended it a couple of years sooner than I did.

It's easy to look at overall stats of children whose parents divorced, and say that they don't do as well as children whose parents didn't divorce...but there's just no way to tell what stories underlie the numbers. I know some kids right now whose parents are divorced, and their lives are probably not going to look that good, as far as I can tell - but it's not because of the divorce.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cascadian* 

To kids who really didn't know anything was wrong, ie. if mom and dad were civil, arguing behind closed doors or without kids around then, yes, it could affect them negatively. It could feel like the rug was pulled from underfoot.
.

This is what happened in my family. My parents divorced when I was 19, after 21 years of marriage. It was a shock (to my mom as well), and it was really hard.

It's been 16 years now, and they still can't stand to be around each other. They mostly don't have to (never had to share custody, cause we were 18 and 19 at the time of divorce), but occasionally it comes up, like the birth of my babies, graduation, baby's 1st ibrthday party, weddings, etc. At those times, I really, really wish that they hadn't got divorced, cause it's just so stinking hard. But, that's just selfish thoughts on my part. They are both happier now. But, it's still hard.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

It can I think. I have my issues, and I think my parents divorce had some negative effects. But know that I am older, (married 8 years BTW) I realize that my parents are dysfunctional, and I would quite likely have more issues if they'd stayed married!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
BUT - as long as both you and your dh are able to honestly tell him, "We love you, we are both here for you no matter what, and we are going to do the best we can by you" he will be ok.

But maybe it won't. TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime. My family of origin is so highly dysfunctional that divorce doesn't even register as a blip, but my family of choice isn't that way. I absolutely would fight with everything to stay married. Short of my husband waking up one day and becoming an abuser, I can't imagine a reason that I'd get divorced rather than working on our problems. I've seen severe abuse, neglect, really, really bad things, and I'll do anything I can to protect my children from pain.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

My take? Divorce is divorce - a separating of the two parental units. I think what screws up kids, is screwed up parenting. Kids can adjust if they are given solidity and tools and a positive way thru... vs. anger, rage, blame, abuse, jealousy, guilt, etc...
If the parents can deal with the family separating in a healthy way, the kids could be taught that there is a healthy way to end a relationship that is not healthy anymore - which can be a great tool, actually. If the parents bring anger, rage, blame, abuse, jealousy, etc into the family, married or divorced, the kids will probably suffer & be confused & screwed up, etc.

Sorry for what you're going thru.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

Being a kid of divorced parents, I think a parent being miserable is a lot worse for a kid than parents being divorced. If things can be worked out so that parents aren't miserably unhappy and divorce can be avoided, great. But that's very far from always possible. And kids ARE affected negatively from having parents who are unhappy with their lives.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

My parents divorced when I was 19. My brother was 16 and my sisters were 11 & 8. It affected each of us differently (to this day), and it was definitely hard on all of us. It also had some benefits for each of us over the long run.

My parents' bad marriage leading up to the divorce affected each of us differently as well. They had a very strong commitment to each other, but no love or affection or even basic ability to communicate about simple matters. I personally was so relieved when my parents divorced, perhaps because as the oldest, I had spent so many years observing their dysfunction & mutual loathing. Later I got angry (especially at my mom, who was not the one to ask for divorce) for not ending the marriage sooner. Now I have yet another perspective, which is deeper compassion for my mom's situation and a better understanding of why she stuck with it, even though it sucked in so many ways.

One of the hardest tangles of the question of divorce/stay together is that sometimes I think staying together causes damage AND getting a divorce causes damage. In some situations, there just isn't a damage-free option. There are only trade-offs about the type & severity of the damage.

I also have perspective that life is like that, and people survive, grow, and often thrive in spite of the messed up things that have happened to them. I certainly have my share of damage from my parents bad marriage and their acrimonious divorce. But my damage isn't catastrophic, and it hasn't prevented me from having love in my life and doing things that I want to do.

And we have the imagined "therapy jar" for our DD, too!







We started joking about it before she was even born. We joke that when she's 18 she gets to start college & therapy.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *number572* 
My take? Divorce is divorce - a separating of the two parental units.

But, it would result in the children having two homes, two beds to fall asleep in at night. I can't help but feel like it would be like trying to live out of a hotel half of the time.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
But maybe it won't. TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime. My family of origin is so highly dysfunctional that divorce doesn't even register as a blip, but my family of choice isn't that way. I absolutely would fight with everything to stay married. Short of my husband waking up one day and becoming an abuser, I can't imagine a reason that I'd get divorced rather than working on our problems. I've seen severe abuse, neglect, really, really bad things, and I'll do anything I can to protect my children from pain.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

As a child of divorced parents, I agree with all of this. I spent much of my life arguing in favor of my parents divorce, and that it didn't affect me...but now at 40, in my own marriage with my own child I can see that it really has been detrimental to me in many ways. I wish my parents had gotten some therapy and fixed their own issues, each of them, and then fixed their marriage. I don't think either of them went on to be significantly happier post-divorce. They just traded in different problems.

If you do get divorced, I think the best thing to do is still face up to your problems honestly--they will not go away. If you are unhappy, figure out why and deal with it. I would suggest getting your children some pre-emptive therapy since a divorce is confusing to go through and being able to talk to a neutral person would be helpful. I think divorce can be so horrible that a lot of parents (my mom) hide under the bedcovers while everything is falling apart. Specifically, don't do that.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
But maybe it won't. TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime. My family of origin is so highly dysfunctional that divorce doesn't even register as a blip, but my family of choice isn't that way. I absolutely would fight with everything to stay married. Short of my husband waking up one day and becoming an abuser, I can't imagine a reason that I'd get divorced rather than working on our problems. I've seen severe abuse, neglect, really, really bad things, and I'll do anything I can to protect my children from pain.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

SO maybe it won't be OK. Maybe they won't be OK if the parents stayed together. Maybe there will be other "major negative events" that go on in their lives. A person having to have extensive medical treatments can still be a major negative event - as can other things that are totally up to chance.

I think that in divorce the parties seeking the divorce can choose to make it a less negative event - by never speaking ill of the other party, by doing everything they can to foster a good relationship with both parents, etc. Yes, it may be a negative event, but it doesn't have to turn children into monsters or mess them up for life. People come through "negative events" every day and go on to lead normal lives. Divorce doesn't have to be a negative event that screws children up.

I think that people should try to stay in marriages, but I also think that people have the right to be happy - and children have the right to have happy parents. When parents aren't happy children get screwed up too - even if their parents are together. So which is better? Parents that are miserable and together, or parents that are happy apart, and able to parent much more effectively?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
But, it would result in the children having two homes, two beds to fall asleep in at night. I can't help but feel like it would be like trying to live out of a hotel half of the time.

That depends on the custodial arrangement. If you think that it would be detrimental to the kids to be split 50/50 between the parents, don't do that.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. *I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful.* While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

Well said.

Too many people today pass off divorce as normal and no big deal and act like bio parents don't matter that much.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Well said.

Too many people today pass off divorce as normal and no big deal and *act like bio parents don't matter that much*.

WHAT??? Can you please expand on this? I haven't seen a single post on here that says that a step-parent is more important than a bio-parent to a child.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
WHAT??? Can you please expand on this? I haven't seen a single post on here that says that a step-parent is more important than a bio-parent to a child.

That is because I was making a general comment about how society views parents today. I wasn't quoting anyone in this thread. Not every comment posted in threads is a direct reply to someone else's comment.

BTW, I never said anything about step parents.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
That is because I was making a general comment about how society views parents today. I wasn't quoting anyone in this thread. Not every comment posted in threads is a direct reply to someone else's comment.

I don't see that as the general societal view though. I can't move out of the state I currently live in b/c my son's dad lives here. It's HARD to move out of state when you get divorced - you have to PROVE in COURT that its in your child's BEST INTEREST. Thats not an easy standard to meet at all.

I think my son's father is a very important part of his life, and I think that most parents would agree that their children should have relationships with both parents. A step-parent does not get to replace a bio-parent (unless there is a history of abuse, neglect, or abandonment - and then it very well could be in the childs best interest).

People do pass divorce off as normal - but thats b/c it is. don't 50% of marriages end in divorce now? That makes it normal - at least today it is.

Ok, lunch time.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Even looking at happiness of children of divorced parents to children of married parents can be deceiving. You'd have to look at the happiness of children of divorced parents compared to the children of parents who considered divorce but stayed together, or something more like that. A statistic that includes children of happily married parents isn't useful if that isn't an option.

Also, there's a difference between remaining in an unhappy marriage for the kids, and going to couples counseling and working on a marriage to make it happier for the kids.

Personally, if my marriage were unhappy, I would first try hard through counseling or whatever to make the marriage better for the sake of the children, even if that weren't my first desire. But I would not personally remain in an unhappy marriage for my children, as I don't think that it would even be in their best interest, and I also don't think it would serve them for me to be a martyr for them, nor do I want to teach them to become martyrs. (Not saying "being a martyr" is a description for anyone's situation or potential, just how I would interpret it in my case, or more accurately how I interpret it in the case of my unhappily married parents.)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
I don't see that as the general societal view though.

I'm not surprised we don't agree on this. I'm not debating it with you any further though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe it was okay (not great, in many ways) for my son, because it _was_. I had ds1 seeing the school counsellor as soon as my ex and I split up, and the counsellor eventually told me that he'd love to keep working with him, because he was a lot of fun, but that he really didn't need any help and was doing great.

And, I know his dad is important to him. About a year ago, he saw him again for the first time in a few years. DS1 took his sketchbook, his juggling equipment, his guitar, etc. It was like he was audtioning for a part and desperate to impress the casting director. (In my personal opinion, his father should have been on his freaking knees, begging for the right to be part of this remarkable young man's life, but that's not how it works.) Whether my ex deserves it or not, he _is_ ds1's dad, and he is important to ds1. That doesn't mean that he and I staying together would have even remotely been in my son's best interests.

The thing about divorced parents vs. married parents is that, in the case of a divorce, the marriage was such that at least one parent was unhappy enough to want a divorce. Yes - there are married couples who have also worked through stages like that, but there are no divorced couples where both parties were thriving. When we're comparing the two groups, _all_ the ones with functional, or even _happy_, marriages are in the "still married" group, and none of them are in the divorced group. It's apples and oranges.

And, yeah - there are cases where people divorce for what seem like frivolous reasons. I know at least one woman who basically dumped her husband, because he turned out to be a fallible human being, instead of a white knight out of a romance novel. But...her approach to life is such that she won't _ever_ have a successful long-term relationship, whether she marries or not, and whether she has children or not, unless something _major_ changes within her. So, we can look at her kids and say, "they're screwed up, because they come from divorced parents"...but it's more like "they're screwed up, becuase their mother is in denial - about everything - to her eyebrows". The same things that caused her marriage to fold are the things that make her a less-than-wonderful parent. It's not cause and effect.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
But, it would result in the children having two homes, two beds to fall asleep in at night. I can't help but feel like it would be like trying to live out of a hotel half of the time.

It totally depends on the custodial situation.

In my case I moved away to another state with my mom and stepdad, and only had to see my dad during the summer, but when I was a teen I decided I didn't want to do even that because life at his house sucked. My stepmom was a pretty awful person most of my teen years, honestly the damage from the divorce came from her being such a rag. I hated her and what she did to my family(dad and her were cheating on their spouses). She treated my very badly, imagine how it feels to come home and find ALL of your belongings packed up in the front yard, yep she did that. I was 12 at the time and was moving in with my mom because life with them and their new babies was dreadful.

Now as a mom to two young children can *kinda* understand her irrational behavior was partially brought on by being a sleep-deprived new mom of twins, BUT that doesn't make her behavior acceptable at all. I feel that if parents do divorce they need to be advocates for their children first. I think my dad just was a bit spineless through the whole thing, and my mom was just as weak because she signed some stuff in the divorce decree that was superbly lame. I do know that they really were just pretty selfish in the situation.

Thing is though, they are happier with their partners, both remarried and still are married to their new mates(20+years later). They were a bad match, and I was a failure of BC, they weren't established in their relationship and were thrust into being parents when they weren't ready.

There are many kids from "happily married" families that are screwed up, there are kids of drug addicted parents who are fine, I think more of it has to do with how the kid processes and adapts. No matter how stable a family is a kid may end up angry over something, and be messed up from it.

It really is dependent on the situation.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
But, it would result in the children having two homes, two beds to fall asleep in at night. I can't help but feel like it would be like trying to live out of a hotel half of the time.

Yeah, I mean, it would have been easier in some ways (mine divorced when I was 7) to not have to move around at all. But, that part was not the hard part, and to be honest. We (my sis & I) didn't have a set room or a particular bed and would sleep on sleeping bags in our Dad's living room... we went every other wknd for several months at least until he moved out of state and then it was only a few x per year... but we didn't feel bad about sleeping on the floor. And he would flip us a $20 and we'd walk to the corner store and get candy bars & the cereal that our mom didn't buy. It had its perks, as a kid!

All casual attitude aside tho, if you're facing this, the parts that did cause problems for my sis & me were their behaviors toward each other & toward us, the remarriage of my mom to an alcoholic pervert, my mom's anger & rage issues. Our dad was killed when I was an early teen, that was hard & I got caught up in killing that pain with alcohol for many years. But, I feel that they could have made it different, maybe even very positive, if they'd been capable of getting their own emotions & anger, etc under control & presenting the situation as a positive one. Maybe not, but I think even if they'd stayed together and had the same attitude they had, we could have still had major issues to deal with, maybe even worse? I really don't think their act of divorcing and having to go from home to home was what did it.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
That depends on the custodial arrangement. If you think that it would be detrimental to the kids to be split 50/50 between the parents, don't do that.

I don't know if it would be exactly 50/50 but we're both very involved in their lives, and we're both very important to them, and that wouldn't change. Therefore the custodial agreement would reflect that. I'm trying to work on being happy in my marriage, though. Some days I manage that; some days I don't. I think dh finally "gets" the depth of my unhappiness, though. That's a good place to start.


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## MaerynPearl (Jun 21, 2008)

Im the daughter of a divorce... with healthy marriages resulting on either side afterwards and... while my parents are not friends, they are civil with each other and never talked bad about each other in front of me. That mattered a LOT.

I try to do the same with my kids despite my divorce. My son has even mentioned that I talk to his bio-dad like hes a friend. Hes not my friend, but the kids dont have to know that.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
But, it would result in the children having two homes, two beds to fall asleep in at night. I can't help but feel like it would be like trying to live out of a hotel half of the time.

For me an my brother it was more like having two happy, stable homes where we felt loved unconditionally instead of one less than happy, often emotionally tense home. We were both much happier in the long run.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Well said.

Too many people today pass off divorce as normal and no big deal and act like bio parents don't matter that much.

The biology of the parents _doesn't_ matter that much. DD is _my_ daughter, no matter what her genes say, just like DS is DH's son no matter what genes say. My bio mom is _is_ not my mother. She is a woman who gave birth to me that I no longer talk to since she tried to kill my dad when I was 14 months old. My real mom is my dad's second wife. Even after mom and dad divorced she was still my mom even without biology or even legal pact to say so.

Heck, that's why my parents had no specified custody arrangement after the divorce. Because anything legal would have negated any connection I had with her. It was one of the few things they managed to agree on right off the bat. That both my brother and I be allowed to retain the mother child relationship, not just my brother. Dh refers to her as his mother-in-law, my kids refer to her as grandma and she is still a very big part of our lives. And for that I am glad that biology has very little say in these things. The divorce would have been a lot harder on me if I had lost her in it just because we don't share half out DNA.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
But maybe it won't. TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime. My family of origin is so highly dysfunctional that divorce doesn't even register as a blip, but my family of choice isn't that way. I absolutely would fight with everything to stay married. Short of my husband waking up one day and becoming an abuser, I can't imagine a reason that I'd get divorced rather than working on our problems. I've seen severe abuse, neglect, really, really bad things, and I'll do anything I can to protect my children from pain.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

I totally agree. It saddens me that divorce is seen as something so "normal" within our society. My children would be devastated if my husband and I divorced... and while I think it's great that so many seem to come out of divorce so well, that doesn't make it okay. Children are amazingly resilient, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't fight like hell to do everything I can to save them the heartache of a broken home.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I don't know if it would be exactly 50/50 but we're both very involved in their lives, and we're both very important to them, and that wouldn't change. Therefore the custodial agreement would reflect that. I'm trying to work on being happy in my marriage, though. Some days I manage that; some days I don't. I think dh finally "gets" the depth of my unhappiness, though. That's a good place to start.

Absolutely - but that doesn't have to be 50/50. Custody arrangements are as different as all the couples who have them - they are determined on a case by case basis. So long as both you and your dh are willing to work hard to make sure that both of you are very involved, it can be something that is positive, and that works for you and kids. Custody also takes a long time to figure out - so if what you start out with doesn't work, you can tweak, and change, and try new things to see what works best. There is no one size fits all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija y mijo* 
I totally agree. It saddens me that divorce is seen as something so "normal" within our society. My children would be devastated if my husband and I divorced...

It's great for your kids that this is the case for them. I was devastated that my parents _didn't_ divorce. My son's life would have been badly damaged if I hadn't divorced his dad.

Divorce _is_ a "life happens" issue, because...life happens. I've been through 3 miscarriages, years of secondary infertility, a stillborn son, and 5 unwanted c-sections...and those are all "life happens" issues, too. Life isn't always pretty, and divorce isn't always that ugly.

There's a part of me that will always regret that my first marriage didn't work out. We were together for 15 years, starting when I was 16. That's a really, really significant chunk of my life. He was there when _my_ parents split up (as I was there when his parents split up). He was there when my grandmother died, and when my grandfather died, and when we briefly thought my mom might have ovarian cancer. He was an _amazing_ dad, for the first year, and supported me through my first c-section recovery like a champ. We had dreams of growing old together and plans/dreams for what we'd do together. He was my best friend for a long time, and my best "buddy" (very different connotation) for even longer. But...life happens...


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Even looking at happiness of children of divorced parents to children of married parents can be deceiving. You'd have to look at the happiness of children of divorced parents compared to the children of parents who considered divorce but stayed together, or something more like that. A statistic that includes children of happily married parents isn't useful if that isn't an option.

Also, there's a difference between remaining in an unhappy marriage for the kids, and going to couples counseling and working on a marriage to make it happier for the kids.

Personally, if my marriage were unhappy, I would first try hard through counseling or whatever to make the marriage better for the sake of the children, even if that weren't my first desire. But I would not personally remain in an unhappy marriage for my children, as I don't think that it would even be in their best interest, and I also don't think it would serve them for me to be a martyr for them, nor do I want to teach them to become martyrs. (Not saying "being a martyr" is a description for anyone's situation or potential, just how I would interpret it in my case, or more accurately how I interpret it in the case of my unhappily married parents.)

Re: kids needing to have relationships with both parents. It's hard to have a real relationship (non-custodial father) when only seeing the person 4 days a month. A lot, if not most, visitation agreements are every other weekend. That is not enough time with one's children, no matter how you slice it. I think divorce is not god for kids. I think fighting all the time in front of your kids is not good, either. I think parents owe it to their children to figure out a way to coexist (in the same house) peacefully for the sake of their children. I know this opinion is very unpopular here, but I don't know of many mothers' and children whose lives actually improve after a divorce. Statistics back that up. Also, I tend to see most people as going from one set of problems to another. I wish divorces were harder to get.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
But maybe it won't. TBH, it bothers me that people view divorce as a "life happens" issue. It's not. Life happens is when a parent gets laid off or someone has to have expensive medical treatments. The family members come together, look at the situation, and make decisions on how to proceed.

Divorce doesn't "happen." It's a conscious decision that 2 (or 1, in some cases, I suppose) makes. Just because people can be resilient doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider their well-being in the meantime. My family of origin is so highly dysfunctional that divorce doesn't even register as a blip, but my family of choice isn't that way. I absolutely would fight with everything to stay married. Short of my husband waking up one day and becoming an abuser, I can't imagine a reason that I'd get divorced rather than working on our problems. I've seen severe abuse, neglect, really, really bad things, and I'll do anything I can to protect my children from pain.

So from a personal perspective, yes I think a divorce would be emotionally harmful to my children. From a research perspective, divorce is considered a major negative event on children. *I think a lot of people want to believe it's okay for their children because believing otherwise would be painful*. While there are extenuating circumstances that lead to divorce and make kids happier (leaving an abusive or addicted parent, for example), I don't think it's the case all the time.

I think this is mostly true.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The biology of the parents _doesn't_ matter that much.

I'll make sure to tell that to my husband who after 50+ years still longs to know where he came from and who is bio parents are. Thanks.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

Personally, I don't believe in staying together for the children when things are really that bad. I think it's just doing them a disservice. I do believe that children are happier & healthier having 2 happy homes instead of 1 miserable one. Plus I feel it teaches the children that it's okay to be in a relationship like that. Not to say everyone should run out & divorce when thing aren't perfect but people shouldn't put up with garbage just "for the kids"

I have divorced & remarried. One of the biggest things was that I didn't want my girls to see how I was being treated, think it was okay & find themselves in a similiar, miserable relationship down the road & think that's the norm.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am not saying divorce isn't hard on kids but what I think is harder on them is all the crap the builds up to a divorce. It would have been great for my kids if my husband and I could have kissed and made up and went on living happily ever after. but it was not healthy for them to see up like we were. granted, divorce is not easy on any of us. neither was the affair, the emotional abuse, me going crazy, the physical violence, the constant fighting, them not ever knowing if daddy was coming home or walking out for good, me being constantly stressed and mentally deranged. ALL of that hurt them terribly and it greives me. But I don't believe us staying together would have done them any favors. I am such a better mother now that I don't constantly freak out about their dad. Their dad actually sees them every now and then because he doesn't have to see me. They know he left us for his new girlfriend but divorced or married he would still be with her. and they would definitely know about her by now either way. Nothing healthy or advantageous about it. yes divorce sucks. and if you can avoid it by all means do everything you can to make your marriage work. But divorce is not necessarily worse than staying together in a really insane environment. Either way your kids get screwed. and that sucks. You just have to figure out how to do the least amount of damage sometimes.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I'll make sure to tell that to my husband who after 50+ years still longs to know where he came from and who is bio parents are. Thanks.

Wanting to know your origins doesn't mean biology is important, it means we do have a drive as humans to know where we came from. Saying biology is important devalues every family where DNA is not part of the connection. Including my family, with my kids, and my family, with my parents.

If biology is so dang important then why did my mother want _me_, the family member she has no biological connection with, to be the one who walked her down the aisle when she got re-married? Why is it she introduces me to friends and co-workers as "my oldest boy"? Why did DD start calling me Papa on her own with no influence from me or DH? Why am I the one she goes to when she needs help with matters pertaining to growing up? She has a biological mother (who admittedly doesn't want anything to do with her) she has two grandmothers, she has her biological dad too who is her other parent, and yet _I_ am the one that she feels comfortable going to. Every non-biological connection in my family is just as valid and just as strong and just as important as any of the biological connections.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Re: kids needing to have relationships with both parents. It's hard to have a real relationship (non-custodial father) when only seeing the person 4 days a month. A lot, if not most, visitation agreements are every other weekend. That is not enough time with one's children, no matter how you slice it.

And, in some cases, there's no real relationship with one parent, even if that parent lives in the house. I have very little relationship with my dad since the divorce...but what little relationship I had with him _before_ the divorce was an illusion. He's simply not interested in having that relationship. (The same applies to _his_ parents. As soon as my mom stopped pushing visits and phone calls, he pretty much dropped them both.)

After our divorce, my ex played treat dad for a few months (without paying any child support - ever), and then basically dropped off the face of the earth for several years. DS1 saw him most Christmas Eves at my ex-SIL's place. That was _it_. While there, ds1 would get an IOU for an expensive gift that would never materialize. That was their "relationship". If you think that was because of the divorce, I can assure you that you're wrong.

Quote:

I think divorce is not god for kids. I think fighting all the time in front of your kids is not good, either. I think parents owe it to their children to figure out a way to coexist (in the same house) peacefully for the sake of their children.
And, what if you can't?

Quote:

I know this opinion is very unpopular here, but I don't know of many mothers' and children whose lives actually improve after a divorce. Statistics back that up. Also, I tend to see most people as going from one set of problems to another. I wish divorces were harder to get.
I'm really glad they're not harder to get, thanks. I had to borrow money from my mom to pay my legal fees, as it was. Without that divorce, dh probably couldn't have become a legal resident in Canada, which would have meant I'd have had to lose the one real source of emotional support in my life, _or_ I'd have had to move to the US, and cut ds1 off from his friends and extended family (grandparents, cousin who was like a brother, etc.). I also don't care about statistics. My situation, both financially and physically (re: my health) improved by miles when we split up. Maybe some people do go from one set of problems to another, but people outside (ie. the courts) really aren't qualified to say which set is worse.

I stayed in an incredibly toxic situation for a long time, because I believed that divorce was bad for kids. I was an idiot, not to put too fine a point on it. Divorce isn't inherently good or bad for kids. It depends on a lot of factors.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I am such a better mother now that I don't constantly freak out about their dad.

You said it.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

What I find troubling in some divorce discussions is when the mother assumes that because she is unhappy, her child is automatically unhappy too.

It smacks of narcissism -- as if her child doesn't have independent feelings and emotions, but is instead merely a reflection of her.


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## mekat (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
It smacks of narcissism -- as if her child doesn't have independent feelings and emotions, but is instead merely a reflection of her.

I don't understand how you think living with someone either, child, parent, sibling or roommate that is deeply unhappy can't effect you or a child in the household? To me that sounds like a very self centered view to assume that some one you live with and interact with a majority of the day would not be impacted by your moods. Even my child who is very mentally handicapped picks up on my moods and they are reflected in how he reacts to me. If I am stressed (which is often the case because of his medical conditions) he often acts out more. I sometimes have to force myself to be happy around him and it can be really really hard especially if I just had bad news from one of his doctors. My ex was very troubled by severe depression at times. It impacted my life and stressed me out and made it harder for me to be happy because he was a large part of my life at that point. A family unit is codependent on one another not separate entities sharing space.

I don't know anyone who undertakes divorce lightly even after knowing all the really bad stuff my ex was involved with. I still offered him a second chance and no I wasn't being stupid. That second chance involved quite a few rules one of which was packing up and moving to a new state to get him away from his drug addicted friends as well as him getting significant mental health and substance abuse help but he refused and I just couldn't stay in that environment nor subject my son to it. Even his parents kicked him out after we split up because they realized all they were doing was enabling his destructive ways. He had to hit bottom. He lost everything he owned his relationship with his entire family, including me and his child before he finally admitted to having a problem. He says he is straightening out and I really really hope he is because before the addiction he was a fantastic person to know and be around it was why I married him. Addicts lie and manipulate and steal to support their habit so I am very doubtful about this turn around, even then I wouldn't reunite if he wanted to because he is a dreadful father and my son is far more important to me then a man I spent half my years on earth with. Even my ex admitted to being a bad father during the divorce. My attorney and I talked and he flat out said that my ex could take me to court but because of his history there was no way my ex would ever be able to get physical custody of our son and even visitation is very much limited from a legal perspective. I have allowed more visitation then what was in the custody agreement (because of my ex's issues the custody issue was pushed through the courts in advance of everything else) but only because I knew I could trust my ex-inlaws and it was with the stipulation that my son not leave his grandparents house. We are fortunate because I know my son's paternal grandparents will watch out for my son's safety and place that at higher importance then my ex's wants. If I didn't have that confidence in them then my son probably would have been completely cut off from his father's side of the family once I filed for the divorce and I would have had the law on my side so could have easily done it.

To clarify a misconception in this thread divorce is not easy. It is expensive and time consuming. It is exhausting physically and emotionally. I felt like all my dreams had been ripped away from me and shredded into a pile of scraps at my feet. I had to emotionally pull myself out and make myself a whole person again after my separation (my divorce won't be final for another month or two). Yet despite all that I would do it over again in a heartbeat because my child's and my life have improved significantly.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mekat* 
I don't understand how you think living with someone either, child, parent, sibling or roommate that is deeply unhappy can't effect you or a child in the household? To me that sounds like a very self centered view to assume that some one you live with and interact with a majority of the day would not be impacted by your moods. Even my child who is very mentally handicapped picks up on my moods and they are reflected in how he reacts to me. If I am stressed (which is often the case because of his medical conditions) he often acts out more. I sometimes have to force myself to be happy around him and it can be really really hard especially if I just had bad news from one of his doctors. My ex was very troubled by severe depression at times. It impacted my life and stressed me out and made it harder for me to be happy because he was a large part of my life at that point. A family unit is codependent on one another not separate entities sharing space.

This is very much true. How we feel affects those around us. We, as humans, are designed to be affected by the emotional state of those we spend time with. This is especially true when dealing with what can technically be referred to as a superior/subordinate relationship, such as between employer and employee or mother and child, when one person ultimately has more power than the other. The person with less power instinctively picks up on and responds to the other persons emotional state as an evolutionary "self preservation" mechanism. If we can't adjust our behaviours when the person more powerful is in a bad mood, we are more likely to suffer negative consequences as a result.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
What I find troubling in some divorce discussions is when the mother assumes that because she is unhappy, her child is automatically unhappy too.

It smacks of narcissism -- as if her child doesn't have independent feelings and emotions, but is instead merely a reflection of her.

First, I think the mother being unhappy usually does have an affect on her kids, just because of how close that relationship is. My mom was and is unhappy in her marriage and that had a huge negative affect on me. If my parents had divorced, that also would have had an affect on me. I don't know at all that divorce would have been worse. It certainly isn't a choice between good and bad, or even neutral and bad.

Also, the mother's happiness or unhappiness is important independent of how her children feel. Our feelings and lives don't stop being important when we have kids. I agree that the choice shouldn't be made without consideration of how the children will handle it, but her happiness should also factor into that equation. If she's able to create a good life for her kids and be happy, that's for the best, and that can happen with divorce.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
What I find troubling in some divorce discussions is when the mother assumes that because she is unhappy, her child is automatically unhappy too.

It smacks of narcissism -- as if her child doesn't have independent feelings and emotions, but is instead merely a reflection of her.

A little off-topic but one of the more narcissistic things my mother did growing up was choose to be a SAHP when she was pretty clearly unsuited to it. Her image of "what a family should look like" was more important than the reality which was that our family was full of tension - over money, over her unhappiness, over her focus on small, small things as huge.

I think whenever you take a particular configuration - "children need two parents in the house" "one parent has to be home" "we have to keep up with the Joneses" "kids need private school" or whatever it is - and fail to address whether that configuration actually works for the people involved, you are engaged in narcissism of a particular kind. The kind that says, "I want to be a GOOD MOTHER and a Good Mother does X regardless."


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

***


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

"I don't understand how you think living with someone either, child, parent, sibling or roommate that is deeply unhappy can't effect you or a child in the household?"

There is *effect* and then there is assuming that the child is as unhappy as the parent due to the continuing situation. Is the effect better or worse for the child than the divorce?

Also, I have known a number of people who have been blindsided by a parents' divorce or by a spouse's choice to divorce -- so it is possible to live with someone and be unaware of the extent/nature of their unhappiness.

My issue is that it is at heart a very easy excuse for doing whatever you want. "My kids are only happy if I'm happy, therefore I am fully justified in following my bliss." Very boomer-ish.

EDIT: It is also worth examining whether the parent will actually be happier after the divorce. My recollection of the research is that ON AVERAGE (only) they are not, and that the situation might be (in such cases) that people with unhappy tendencies who enter into marriages are more likely to become divorced. Obviously, there are situations of spouses with mental instability, addictions, abuse, etc. where that is not the case.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
What I find troubling in some divorce discussions is when the mother assumes that because she is unhappy, her child is automatically unhappy too.

It smacks of narcissism -- as if her child doesn't have independent feelings and emotions, but is instead merely a reflection of her.

I don't know if you were refering to something I said or not but I will address it anyway....

I was not just unhappy/ I was loosing my mind and my chidlren were most definitely not happy in that situation. It wasn't because I was unhappy. its because their dad was off running aorund with another woman most of the time and when he was home was being cruel and abusive to theri mother. witnessing such craziness took its toll on them. They were also starting to lose their mind. never knowing when the next bomb was going to drop was awful for them. They knew their dad wanted out. They knew he hated me. Every time he left for work they would all launch into hysterics thinking he was never coming back. So it wasn't just a trite little "iof mama ain't happy, no one is happy" kinda crap. We were all very unhappy and that unhappiness was feeding more unhappiness. it was an insane situation. Also being in such a state I was completely unable to parent. and their dad was busy with other things and was hardly ever around and when he was he certainly was not parenting (he was usually in the basement playing video games and talking to his girfriend).

Quote:

Originally Posted by vbactivist
Re: kids needing to have relationships with both parents. It's hard to have a real relationship (non-custodial father) when only seeing the person 4 days a month. A lot, if not most, visitation agreements are every other weekend. That is not enough time with one's children, no matter how you slice it.
My ex gets a few hours one day a week and every other weekend. It is so much more time than he spent with them when we were married. Before I went back to work he saw them maybe 15 minutes a week and only because I would go sit outside his business and wait for him to come out and say hi to them. we usually had to wait half an hour or more to be acknowledged (he was the owner. all we wanted was a hello) So yeah, sometimes even four days a month is an improvement.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular - just previous threads or discussions where the assumption is made that if the Mom is unhappy, the kids must be too.

While I would not be surprised if that is the case, I do not believe it is something that can be automatically assumed.


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## carriemama (Jun 19, 2008)

I was unhappy in my marriage. We went to marriage counseling and it highlighted how unhappy I was. I could have stayed and tried to work it out. We were both unhappy and not good partners, and were arguing in front of our 1.5 year old daughter. There was no abuse, there was no infidelity, there was nothing truly horrible. I was just miserable and felt like I was sleepwalking through my life.

Then, I did something arguably "selfish" though to me it felt like a life preserver thrown to someone drowning. I fell in love with someone else. That clarified for me pretty immediately that I could not continue in my marriage. My XH was shocked but at the same time relieved.

We are definitely both happier now. He is a MUCH better father on his own. We have a very, very amicable relationship. I am still with my partner and we are happy and are modeling a healthy relationship for my DD. My DD is happy and though I have spied for problems for her over the past year, she is thriving.

I will never ever know what it could/would have been like if we had stayed together. Would it have gotten better or worse? I will never know, but on the likely chance that I would have hung in there and we would have gotten divorced anyway, with more kids, and with them older, I definitely think it was better to end it when we did, while DD was still so little. She will never know any different. And on the one hand, that is very sad, but it is also a blessing.

I ABSOLUTELY feel like I did the right thing for my DD. I am a much happier, more joyful mother. Our finances are fine, as I WOH and can keep us in our home without a problem. Her dad is happy, a wonderful father. We are doing SO MUCH better. It is hard, it is sad, it is the loss of so, so, so many dreams. But there is more than one way to live a life, and there can be more than one set of dreams. I don't know if my DD will face her own inner troubles about this as she gets older. If so, I know that her dad and I will help her in any way possible. She will always know that she is very, very loved and cherished.

Maybe I am just looking at the bright side out of necessity. But I can't see how it would be better for her to grow up in a home where her parents were increasingly disrespectful of each other, and increasingly unhappy, and have that be what she understood marriage to be.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular - just previous threads or discussions where the assumption is made that if the Mom is unhappy, the kids must be too.

While I would not be surprised if that is the case, I do not believe it is something that can be automatically assumed.

I'm the OP, and that is definitely NOT the case. If that were the case, I wouldn't have even felt the need to start this thread.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

1. I wish my parents had divorced long ago. I started wishing this when I was about ten. My dad is emotional and financial deadweight, and he lacks introspection and motivation to change. Our family dynamic was/is essentially codependent and my mom is miserable with him today but still won't cut him loose. Drives me crazy.

2. I often want to divorce my DH. I'm not attracted to him any more (haven't been for years), I hate some of his attitudes/behaviors, and I'm pretty sure I could technically be *happier* with someone else...but IMO, *lackluster* isn't a reason for divorce. We have two small children who adore him, and he loves them...and divorce wouldn't rid me of having to deal with those things about him that bug me. It would just make a logistical nightmare out of our lives. Plus, there are no guarantees, and I do appreciate other things about DH. So I'm going to get creative with ways to make me/us happier, possibly get some counseling and stick it out. Marriages (relationships in general) aren't always a smooth ride.

I think you really have to do a cost-benefit analysis on a decision like this. In my parents' case, everyone would have benefited from divorce except my dad. In my case, no one really gains anything. How much is the *likelihood* that your kids will suffer negative consequences worth the estimated benefit to everyone involved? It's complicated, and also not to be taken lightly.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I thought of this thread today. I have a friend with a mixed son where the dad is African-American. She's said multiple times that she will never get divorced because statistically, black boys who don't have both parents in the home end up in jail.


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## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

Haven't read any of the other replies, but here's my blunt answer.

Divorce is only merited if there is unrectifiable abuse in the household. I would put under the category of abuse: cheating, alcoholism, drug addiction, verbal/ psychological abuse, physical abuse, gambling, spending addiction.

If things are just "blah" and dull at home, hang in there. It will be better for the kids in the long run. If nothing else, divorce is financially ruinous to families, and that has all kinds of implications for a child's future and well being.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

My divorce certainly affected my seven year old dd (less my younger dd who was sixteen months at the time). My hope is that in the long term, it will turn out to have been a positive thing. We handled the divorce fairly amicably, maintain a healthy co-parenting arrangement, etc.

There is still some minor palpable tension when we're all together, so we tend to avoid any gatherings where we need to spend any significant time together. My ex and I dated, got pregnant very quickly - w/o any relationship to fall back on.

Despite marriage and marital counseling, it was evident that our situation is one that would definitely have ended up worse for the effort. After eight years we threw in the towel. I sincerely hope that by providing a stable, loving home life, my two dds will come out on top.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frugalmum* 
Haven't read any of the other replies, but here's my blunt answer.

Divorce is only merited if there is unrectifiable abuse in the household. I would put under the category of abuse: cheating, alcoholism, drug addiction, verbal/ psychological abuse, physical abuse, gambling, spending addiction.

If things are just "blah" and dull at home, hang in there. It will be better for the kids in the long run. If nothing else, divorce is financially ruinous to families, and that has all kinds of implications for a child's future and well being.

And what about my parents? They got divorced because they just couldn't get along anymore. Everything turned into a shouting match, a _loud_ shouting match. Yeah there was one incident of cheating, but that wasn't what sent the relationship down in hill. It happened because the marriage didn't end soon enough IMO.

When two parents cannot get along, to the point that they are screaming at each other in front of their kids, then it's more than just "the relationship is just blah, so I want out." It becomes "this relationship has reached the point of being toxic and for everyones best interest it needs to end."


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
When two parents cannot get along, to the point that they are screaming at each other in front of their kids, then it's more than just "the relationship is just blah, so I want out." It becomes "this relationship has reached the point of being toxic and for everyones best interest it needs to end."

Yeah, I agree that high-conflict marriages like that should end. I'm just wondering about my low-conflict marriage.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Ds just turned 3, and has turned out great so far.... granted he hasnt seen/heard from his daddy sense he was 15months old.

He has a family that loves him, and it doesnt matter to him that it doesnt include a dad.

BTW: Im not divorced yet, next week though, in theory!


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

How a child may feel about something at 3 can be very different than at age 10 when he wants to do Boy Scouts and most of the other kids have their Dads with them at camp and so forth. Or when he's 15 and wishes his Dad could to teach him about cars or how to drive, etc.

Now maybe that role is being filled by someone else for him, but I can't believe he will never experience any negative feelings about that fact that his biological dad has abandoned him, and I think a kid needs a safe space to be able to express that.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

there are no easy answers because so many factors come into play. i personally think divorce is really really tough on kids. i can only speak from my own experience of raising my two children for the last 13 years after divorce and seeing how it has impacted and influenced them over time.

i don't think that a parent should kid themselves that divorce can't have a significant negative influence. the research seems to be fairly clear that it's just not a good scenario


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Yeah, I agree that high-conflict marriages like that should end. I'm just wondering about my low-conflict marriage.

If you can avoid divorce and work together to figure out where the spark went, it probably better and easier to do that. Its easy to get looped into a boring routine and lose who you are in a long term relationship, and then lose the spark and your sense of identity that keeps life fun & interesting. Add kids to that mix and things can get to the point of feeling stuck in the mud, then built up stress causes arguments and distance between people, kids sense that and soon the whole family is stressed and feeling like running would be possibly the answer. OP, I feel for you, it sux to feel stuck. Could you and your husband dedicate some time to figuring out where "it" went in your relationship? And work out ways to bring some joy back in? From what you write it feels like you want changes but are pretty hesitant on divorce at this point.

I completely agree with all OP's b'c no two situations are alike and even if all goes great, the kids may struggle years down the road, then it would be too late. And then you get to live with being blamed for getting divorced and causing their unhappiness - not a fun role I imagine.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
How a child may feel about something at 3 can be very different than at age 10 when he wants to do Boy Scouts and most of the other kids have their Dads with them at camp and so forth. Or when he's 15 and wishes his Dad could to teach him about cars or how to drive, etc.

Now maybe that role is being filled by someone else for him, but I can't believe he will never experience any negative feelings about that fact that his biological dad has abandoned him, and I think a kid needs a safe space to be able to express that.

OT! - I have a niece who's dad split the scene when she was less than a year old. Over the years has made no effort to see her but randomly calls (like every 2 - 3 YEARS!) to get her excited about seeing him, gifts that never materialize... its absolutely heartbreaking. She waffles between "I don't have a dad", to hating him but still acknowledging , to calling every one of her mom's boyfriends "DAD" after only a few months of dating... it so crazy. She constantly says "I love you" in a desperate way, like 20 times in an hour long conversation to me or her other relatives. Seems like she's making sure that we're not going to leave her, if she says she loves us enough. Really heartbreaking. She's 13 now and I'm so afraid of how she's expecting to be ready to have the confidence and clarity to navigate her own relationships. The divorce was not my sister's choice, but there's the result.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Saying biology is important devalues every family where DNA is not part of the connection. Including my family, with my kids, and my family, with my parents.

<snip>

Every non-biological connection in my family is just as valid and just as strong and just as important as any of the biological connections.

Yes. That means that both biological AND choice are important. Saying biology is important does NOT devalue everything else; just as surely you do not think that non-biological connections trump all bio connections no matter how strong.

A weak connection is weak regardless of genetics. A strong one will be strong regardless as well.

But many people separated from their biological contacts DO feel a great deal of pain and/or yearning over that. They also often get told that is stupid and that it shouldn't matter to them (totally devaluing their feelings). I think it's important to recognize and acknowledge the entire web of our contacts without turning it into a competition. Some people will gravitate more towards one or the other. Others will do the opposite. But it's not cool to say "biology doesn't matter at all" just because it doesn't to you; and vice versa is not okay either.

Why does it have to be either or? Why does a statement of value for one automatically mean the other is devalued? I think that dads are of extreme importance in children's lives. Me saying that does not mean that I devalue mothers--because I also assign them the same level of importance. I don't think you can assume that because someone says biology is importance in one statement that therefore they believe that chosen kinship connections are not, that seems a little ridiculous to me; especially since this is a discussion of marriage/divorce--a primary relationship involving *chosen* hopefully non-biological connections!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Yes. That means that both biological AND choice are important. Saying biology is important does NOT devalue everything else; just as surely you do not think that non-biological connections trump all bio connections no matter how strong.

A weak connection is weak regardless of genetics. A strong one will be strong regardless as well.

But many people separated from their biological contacts DO feel a great deal of pain and/or yearning over that. They also often get told that is stupid and that it shouldn't matter to them (totally devaluing their feelings). I think it's important to recognize and acknowledge the entire web of our contacts without turning it into a competition. Some people will gravitate more towards one or the other. Others will do the opposite. But it's not cool to say "biology doesn't matter at all" just because it doesn't to you; and vice versa is not okay either.

Why does it have to be either or? Why does a statement of value for one automatically mean the other is devalued? I think that dads are of extreme importance in children's lives. Me saying that does not mean that I devalue mothers--because I also assign them the same level of importance. I don't think you can assume that because someone says biology is importance in one statement that therefore they believe that chosen kinship connections are not, that seems a little ridiculous to me; especially since this is a discussion of marriage/divorce--a primary relationship involving *chosen* hopefully non-biological connections!

Because of course _biology is independent of the connection we have with people_.

If someone was saying "It's better in most cases for the father to be the primary caregiver because the father is important" it does devalue to mother. Just like saying "it's better for children in most cases for parents to try and stay together because biology is important" devalues non-biological parent/child connections. If DH and I split, it would be just as painful for our children as it would for a child who's two biological parents in a happy relationship split.

When it comes right down to the parent/child relationship, biology is _not_ a factor that affects the child in the divorce. It's the _connection_ that has the affect. Was there a strong _connection_ between parent and child that was severed either intentionally or unintentionally? Does one parents actions during the divorce negatively affect the _connection_ the children have with the other parent? Is the negative effect warranted or is it based on the one parents own selfish reasons?

My connection to my _biological_ mother was severed when I was less than 2 years old. It had absolutely no negative effects on me what so ever. If my connection to my non-biological mother were severed, even as an adult it _would_ have a negative effect on me. And if my connection with my _biological_ father were severed, well that would have a negative effect on me too. Biology is not a deciding factor.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

Musician Dad,

I think those adoptees who feel compelled to search for their biological parents, and the children of sperm donors who feel compelled to locate their father donor would have to disagree with you. I think each person has their own individual feelings about the importance of the biological tie to them. Also, the issue may be made more complex with, for example, the children of interracial couples, where seperation from a biological parent can mean seperation from a particular cultural heritage as well.

However, I do believe that you would be in the minority to have abandonment by a biological parent mean nothing.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I would not say it screws them up, but it messes with children. Plus, rarely are divorced people nice to each other. They tend to drag the children in to it. It is extremely hard on children to not really have a home, but rather have two places they visit.

If someone needs to divorce, then it is the better alternative to whatever is going on. But, people should work at their marriage. I have seen people claim the other person is abusing them just because the other person did not have sex with them at 3am. That is not abuse. It is not ok to have an affair and then leave because you would be happier elsewhere. If that happens, then I would wonder how long that person would be happier there.

I have rarely know of a divorce that should have happened. Divorce does drag the children down. Divorce is awful for children and adults alike. People need to commit to their marriage or not get married in the first place. I understand there are times for a divorce where it is needed, but it still hurts the children.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Because of course _biology is independent of the connection we have with people_.

I think the issue is more complex than that, and varies from person to person. I am an adoptee and know too many adoptees who have searched and located biological relatives to believe that to be generally true. (Of course, there are also adoptees who never want to search or who do not feel a connection--in fact, quite the opposite--with birth relatives that they find.)

You can't extrapolate your experience to everyone. So while YOU may never have suffered effects from the loss of a biological parent, it does not mean that everyone else will be the same. And vice versa.

I think this is the problem when we as parents try to project what our children will feel. As nice as it would be sometimes that our kids would be little automatons of ourselves who feel, think, and experience the world in the same or very similar ways--that is simply not reality. We can make our best guess and do our best, but sometimes that is going to put us flat on our face.

I think generalizations (bio doesn't matter AT ALL never oh no) or (blood is thicker than water, chosen is a poor second) harm kids. First, it kind of removes their voice, if they feel differently about it than their parent expects. And second, it makes people who experience things differently than those around them feel like they are weird or devalued or defective for not being like what people want them to be.

I know as my own personal experience as an adoptee (WHICH DOES NOT EXTRAPOLATE TO ALL ADOPTEES, just to be *absolutely clear about that*!) I find myself walking a very thin line sometimes. I was also abused by my adopters, so you have abuse issues at play (both towards me and witness of abuse) as well. It's all very complex. And a different person plopped into my life would see things very differently I'm sure--because they're different from *me* and my complicated blend of personality and experience.

You may not wish biological connections to be important, but it doesn't make it true. Especially not for other people, who are not you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
I would not say it screws them up, but it messes with children. Plus, rarely are divorced people nice to each other. They tend to drag the children in to it. It is extremely hard on children to not really have a home, but rather have two places they visit.

If someone needs to divorce, then it is the better alternative to whatever is going on. But, people should work at their marriage. I have seen people claim the other person is abusing them just because the other person did not have sex with them at 3am. That is not abuse. It is not ok to have an affair and then leave because you would be happier elsewhere. If that happens, then I would wonder how long that person would be happier there.

I think that a child being reared by someone who _would_ claim abuse, then leave their spouse and child over not getting sex at 3 am (and I really, really doubt that's all that was going on, but that's kind of beside the point), is going to have big problems, whether that parent does or doesn't leave. It's not the divorce that's the problem - it's the selfishness of the parent involved.

Quote:

I have rarely know of a divorce that should have happened.
What on earth makes you think that you know why _any_ divorce happened?

My ex's friends and family - and my own sister - thought I was blowing things out of proportion, etc. and was being completely unreasonable when I kicked my ex out. I won't even repeat the names I was called behind my back, or the allegations that were being made about how it all went down - and some of the people saying that stuff had known me since I was a child. Everybody and their dog (except my bff and my mom) "knew" that my divorce shouldn't have happened, and I just wasn't working hard enough at it.

Oddly enough, after one of his friends offered my ex a place to stay (because his life was in shreds, because of that @#(*&% ex-wife), that same friend ended up apologizing and wondering how I lived with that crap as long as I did. He (the friend) filled a few other people in, and that was that. But, I suspect if my ex hadn't stayed there, that whole crew would be thinking there was no reason for us to have ever split up, even 10 years later. We can't see what goes on inside other people's marriages, and even my mom and bff only knew about about 75% of what was going on for me.

Quote:

Divorce does drag the children down. Divorce is awful for children and adults alike.
Actually, making up my mind to get a divorce was brutal...but actually _getting_ divorced? Freedom. It felt like a new lease on life, and it wasn't awful at all.

Quote:

People need to commit to their marriage or not get married in the first place. I understand there are times for a divorce where it is needed, but it still hurts the children.
hmm...looking back 10 years and extrapolating...I can say with about 99.9% certainty that my divorce hurt ds1 a _lot_ less than having both parents together would have. So, yeah - it hurt him...but there was no option that wouldn't, and divorce was _definitely_ the lesser of two evils.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *helterskelter* 
T...while children who are already in school experience depression and anger towards their parents...

I think you should probably point out here that this isn't universal, yk? I had ds1 seeing a counselor as soon as my ex and I split up. I felt he needed someone he could talk to who wasn't directly involved with the breakup. He never exhibited any signs of depression or anger. And, honestly, at 17, he has his brief moments of mild temper (being "snappish") and is occasionally a little moody, but he's certainly not a depressed or angry person.

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For long term effects, kids inherit the destructive nature of their parents towards relationship and marriage, and they are most likely to also undergo divorce.
Only time will tell if he ends up divorced (only time will tell if he even ends up married), but his approach to relationships thus far has been anything but "destructive".

These things might be more common in children of divorced parents, but it's not like a divorce is a guarantee that they'll happen. The two most messed up of ds1's peers (fairly lengthy juvenile criminal records, both expelled before they were 16, etc.) both come from "intact" families.

Studies on divorce, by necessity, fail to account for the nature of the parent's marriage pre-divorce. There is no way to account for what would have happened with the children from those particular marriages if the divorce hadn't happened, because the divorce _did_ happen.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
I would not say it screws them up, but it messes with children. Plus, rarely are divorced people nice to each other. They tend to drag the children in to it. It is extremely hard on children to not really have a home, but rather have two places they visit.

I agree.

I have friends who are wary adults because their parents divorced..... they either never married as grown-ups or have gone on to marry and divorce just as their parents did. I have nieces and nephews from split homes now and they are not nice kids. They are mean, demanding and do not respect parent /child boundaries.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think you should probably point out here that this isn't universal, yk? I had ds1 seeing a counselor as soon as my ex and I split up. I felt he needed someone he could talk to who wasn't directly involved with the breakup. He never exhibited any signs of depression or anger. And, honestly, at 17, he has his brief moments of mild temper (being "snappish") and is occasionally a little moody, but he's certainly not a depressed or angry person.


I would think anger and depression are probably two of the most normal responses for a kid to have. Perhaps because you were proactive, in finding a counselor for your child, he was able to work through his feelings constructively. Or perhaps because your divorce was so necessary, he truly had no negative feelings about the process. But I am a little surprized that you think two fairly common emotions are not the norm when a childs family situation has had a dramatic change?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
I agree.

I have friends who are wary adults because their parents divorced..... they either never married as grown-ups or have gone on to marry and divorce just as their parents did. I have nieces and nephews from split homes now and they are not nice kids. They are mean, demanding and do not respect parent /child boundaries.

As an adult with divorced parents, who knows adults with divorced parents, that has not been my experience. I know very few people who come from divorced parents who are demanding or do not respect parent/child boundaries. I know very few who have never married. The reason of course being that each person will have different experiences, and the people you know may have _other_ aspects of their relationship with their parents that affected them. Or the divorce was less pleasant than the one my parents and my friends parents went through. Maybe the area they live in has a high level of stigma associated with divorce and it negatively affected the children, and the adults they became. Maybe, just maybe, things are far more complex than "divorced parents vs. non-divorced parents."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I would think anger and depression are probably two of the most normal responses for a kid to have. Perhaps because you were proactive, in finding a counselor for your child, he was able to work through his feelings constructively. Or perhaps because your divorce was so necessary, he truly had no negative feelings about the process. But I am a little surprized that you think two fairly common emotions are not the norm when a childs family situation has had a dramatic change?

I don't think she said they aren't the norm... In fact I think she said

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These things might be more common in children of divorced parents, but it's not like a divorce is a guarantee that they'll happen.
That being said, when my parents divorced I felt anger and depression but it had nothing to do with the divorce and everything to do with events that no one could have seen that happened _after_ the divorce. In fact, it took a long time for my parents to figure out what was/did happen after the divorce because they assumed exactly what you are saying, that the anger and depression had to do with the divorce.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
As an adult with divorced parents, who knows adults with divorced parents, that has not been my experience. I know very few people who come from divorced parents who are demanding or do not respect parent/child boundaries.

I think she meant the nieces and nephews (and who I assume are currently children) are the ones who are mean, demanding and unable to respect parent child boundaries.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Further on the subject of learning destructive patterns of relationships...I'm divorced. My parents are divorced. So, I guess that fits into the pattern, except:

1) I was with my ex-husband, and already planning to marry him, for about five years before my parents actually divorced. Their divorce had nothing to do with what melted down my marriage, which was

2) I married a guy who was a lot like my dad. I didn't know I'd done it, and I was actually deliberately looking for someone who _wasn't_. However, my ex is an exceptionally good con man, and had me completely suckered until we were actually living together, married and expecting a baby.

So, I married a guy who was immature, irresponsible (especially with money, but in other ways, as well) and incredibly dishonest. I did that, because those were traits I was comfortable with on some levels, _having grown up with them_. I've often suspected that if my parents had split up earlier, I'd have been _less_ likely to make a bad first marriage myself.

Correlation does not equal causation and we simplyl don't have enough real knowledge about the families involved in these situations. When I hear stories of the "my friend's friend got a divorce, and her husband dropped off the map, and their son is a ball of rage" type, I conclude that having a selfish parent and being abandoned by said parent messed the son up, not the fact that his parents split up.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
I agree.

I have friends who are wary adults because their parents divorced..... they either never married as grown-ups or have gone on to marry and divorce just as their parents did. I have nieces and nephews from split homes now and they are not nice kids. They are mean, demanding and do not respect parent /child boundaries.

Well, my parents have been married 30+ years, my mom was a SAH mom to five.... and I'm a divorced, gay, f/t working mom to 2.









As to your neices and nephews - I'm sorry they're such a mean and demanding lot. My two daughters are the most calm, loving and compassionate kids I know.

So much of this is anecdotal.









I maintain that my divorce has had and will have minimal impact on my kids. They have two healthy and happy parents who they have regular contact with, a stable home life and a loving step-parent.

It's really been a win-win.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
I agree.

I have friends who are wary adults because their parents divorced..... they either never married as grown-ups or have gone on to marry and divorce just as their parents did. I have nieces and nephews from split homes now and they are not nice kids. They are mean, demanding and do not respect parent /child boundaries.

And I have a friend who flits from meaningless relationship to meaningless relationship because her parents DIDN'T divorce and to her "marriage" means a stifling, loveless, anger-filled union where the woman has to give up all her dreams. There are plenty of examples in which divorce was terrible for kids, but there are also plenty of examples where parents staying in volatile, abusive, or loveless marriages was bad for kids.

I think the point is that you simply CAN'T generalize. No matter what the statistics say, every relationship and every family dynamic is different. Personally, I suspect that the way the parents handle the divorce is probably more important than the fact of the divorce.


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## HappyMommy2 (Jan 27, 2007)

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Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Does divorce really screw up kids?.

No, but step-parents sure do!! (in my own personal experience)


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyMommy2* 
No, but step-parents sure do!! (in my own personal experience)

Not all step parents. My dad's second wife (my first step-mom) is the woman who is in every way except biology, my mom. She didn't screw me up in anyway. Nor have any other other step parents I have had over the years. My current step parents are both awesome people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
Personally, I suspect that the way the parents handle the divorce is probably more important than the fact of the divorce.

This is my feeling, as well. You stated it much more succinctly than I did, though!

And, actually...I think it could also be said that the way parents handle their marriage is more important than the marriage itself.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
I think when the question is "does divorce really screw up kids," particularly in reference to low conflict marriages, it's unlikely that there will be many responses from divorced parents saying it does. I'm certain that both of my parents, particularly my father who wanted the divorce, would say that it did not seriously screw up their kids. They'd each say that for different reasons though. My dad because he's completely oblivious to how his actions affected everyone else and my mom because it would make her feel guilty. Everything is fine. We all came out if on top. Blah, blah, blah.

My parents would say it too, for no other reason than it's true.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
I'm certain that both of my parents, particularly my father who wanted the divorce, would say that it did not seriously screw up their kids. They'd each say that for different reasons though. My dad because he's completely oblivious to how his actions affected everyone else...

This is kind of what I mean, though. If a _parent_ is oblivious to how his or her actions affect everyone else, including their kids, what's life going to be like growing up with that parent? Living with someone who is all about their own stuff, and can't be bothered with how that stuff affects their children, isn't good for kids, either.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
My parents would say it too, for no other reason than it's true.

And you said yourself that your parents marriage was anything but low conflict.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I think the point is that you simply CAN'T generalize. No matter what the statistics say, every relationship and every family dynamic is different. Personally, I suspect that the way the parents handle the divorce is probably more important than the fact of the divorce.

I agree 100%.

My own anecdata is that my parents did a lot of things wrong when they divorced (Immediately: father moved in and married girlfriend who had no idea how to deal with kids and is a very selfish person, mother moved us away from all friends, pretty far from our dad, started us in new schools, she let her resentment and issues spill over into daily life, said bad things about our father, etc.) I had some very rough years as a teen that definitely would have been solved by more attentive parenting, but I turned out okay and have a wonderful marriage. My sister, on the other had, is a complete wreck and the fallout from the divorce played a major part in that. She has undiagnosed personality disorder/mental illness and it should have been caught, treated and carefully dealt with during childhood. It's too late, now.









That said...DIVORCE didn't cause those issues. My parent's choices did.


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## liberal_chick (May 22, 2005)

My parents were in a low-conflict marriage. Or at least I assume that b/c I don't remember any yelling, arguing, fighting, nothing of the sort. I remember my dad moving out (at my mother's demand, but I didn't know that at the time) and I remember when she told me they were getting divorced.

I have no negative memories surrounding the divorce, which occured when I was 8. My dad was (and is) amazing. He would come see my sister and I every day after work and take us on Thursday night and every other weekend. I never felt as if I was "visiting" two places. I had 2 homes.

My parents both remarried within a year or so after the divorce was final. Along with my new step-father (whom I've never LOVED, but always liked and respected) I got 2 step-brothers. I moved in with my dad and step-mother (who has been like my mother, for all intents and purposes) when I was 11 and my half-sister came along a year later. I was in the room when she was born and got to cut the cord.







: I've never thought of her as my half-sister; she's just my sister.

I say all of that to say: I'm fine. My sister is fine too. I'm not convinced divorce in and of itself is damaging. I sure don't have any negative feelings surrounding it. I can't say that I want to get divorced, but I'm in a super happy marriage.


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## Kiernan (Jan 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
But even if your parents divorced sooner, your dad would still have been your dad and you still would have grown up knowing those same traits except you would have had the divorce to deal with too.

Yes, but she would have grown up in an environment in which marriage to someone with those traits was not OK. It makes a difference how the behavior is modeled: is it tolerated and thus internalized by the child as the way things are, or is it changed because the other parent believes that living with such behavior is damaging, and models that belief for their child?

I grew up with an alcoholic father and married an alcoholic. I swore I never would, and yet I did. I'll never know, but I believe that if my mother had chosen not to live with my father when I was younger, I would not have been quite so comfortable with the personality traits that ultimately defined my late husband as well.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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## jessemoon (May 31, 2004)

I remember hearing something on NPR about a study that found that it often wasn't the divorce itself that was most damaging to kids; it was the relationships that parents had after the divorce that could be potentially damaging.

The study found that single parents who have a series of relationships (or marriages) after a divorce have unhappier children than those who stayed single or those who eventually remarry only once. The swiftness and number of new relationships seemed to be the thing that was hardest on kids.

I have no personal experience with this, but I thought it was an interesting P.O.V.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
Uh, I still had to live him both literally and figuratively.

I'm sorry for that. But, the bottom line is that the biggest problem was that you had a parent who was oblivious to how his own actions affected other people. A parent who doesn't even consider the potential impact of divorce on his/her children isn't parenting in those children's best interests. It's not about the divorce.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
But even if your parents divorced sooner, your dad would still have been your dad and you still would have grown up knowing those same traits except you would have had the divorce to deal with too.

The divorce to deal with, too? You mean, he would have been out of the house, and my mom wouldn't have been trying to find the emotional energy to raise three children, while coping, day in/day out, with the crap that came along with having my dad in the house?? I used to cry into my pillow wishing my mom and dad would split up, because my mom was so unhappy that it hurt _me_ to see it. My parent's marriage was probably "low conflict" in the way many people mean it, but my mom was obviously unhappy, and that carries its own burden for kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiernan* 
Yes, but she would have grown up in an environment in which marriage to someone with those traits was not OK. It makes a difference how the behavior is modeled: is it tolerated and thus internalized by the child as the way things are, or is it changed because the other parent believes that living with such behavior is damaging, and models that belief for their child?

I grew up with an alcoholic father and married an alcoholic. I swore I never would, and yet I did. I'll never know, but I believe that if my mother had chosen not to live with my father when I was younger, I would not have been quite so comfortable with the personality traits that ultimately defined my late husband as well.

This. The things I considered "normal", even while hating them, were unhealthy. If I weren't living in them, I wouldn't have considered them "normal".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
But it's not always an either/or situation...either the parents stay together and are miserable and set a crap example for their kids or they get divorced. There's often a place in the middle where they each can decide to put their big kid panties on and quit thinking about their own personal happiness so much and figure out a way to make their family work for everyone even if it means just being content and not being blissed out happy because honestly chasing that kind of happiness is a fantasy anyway, and they likely won't find it even if they split up. Like the old saying goes, there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.

I actually agree with this completely - but that's not about the divorce, as such. That's about parents who need to grow the freak up. If they're not going to "put on their big kid panties', then staying together or divorcing isn't really the issue. The issue is the lack of "big kid panties".

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Unless he remarried and she saw it modeled in his new relationship or her mom found someone just as bad or worse. Divorce doesn't change who the parents are.
As for this...my mom was/is someone who was very concerned about her kids, and thought that divorce would be too hard on them, so she stayed. She did remarry eventually, and her husband is my children's favourite, and most involved, grandfather (my FIL is awesome, too, but he lives far away from here). They see my dad a couple times a year, if I make the effort...because he won't.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
Don't be sorry. I'm glad I had my dad around. He tried to be a good father, but he simply didn't consider that a divorce could have any kind of profound impact on his kids and it seems many people agree with him. Nothing was because of the divorce but because of this that or the other. I think the divorce and that lack of consideration are tied together.

I don't know anybody, in this thread or elsewhere, who would never consider that a divorce could have a profound impact on a child...not ever. Nobody in this thread has said so, either, so I have no idea where you're getting that from. What we're saying is that divorce doesn't screw up kids. _Some_ divorces screw up _some_ kids and that depends on the nature of the divorce, the parents and the kids themselves.

Since I scheduled ds1 to see the school counsellor upon my divorce, it's fairly obvious that I knew it _could_ have a profound effect on him. But, it didn't.

Quote:

I don't really consider that marriage low conflict then. You made it sound like your dad just had some undesirable traits not that there was that much turmoil in your family unless it was in an earlier post I missed. My point was you still would have known those traits with or without the divorce. The fact that there was such conflict in your family though takes it to a different level.
My dad is an alcoholic, but those traits (the irresponsibilty, immaturity, etc.) are 99.9% of what caused the conflict. The actual drinking wasn't that big a deal (and my stepdad drinks quite a lot, too). The point is that there wasn't much visible conflict. My mom was very unhappy. That's 99% (or more) of what I saw. (I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your dad probably wasn't happy, either, or he wouldn't have wanted a divorce, yk?)

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Anyway, my sister and I had no idea my parent's marriage was problematic for either of them and so many of my friends had the same experience with their parent's divorce. None of us ever wished our parents split. So I am coming at this from a completely different POV.
I get that. But, whether you knew about it or not, there _were_ problems, and you don't know how they would have played out.

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I think we're talking in circles on this issue or splitting hairs or something.
I don't think it's splitting hairs. I think that saying "divorce screws kids up" is a gross oversimplification of a very complicated issue. Divorce is a major life change. Major life changes are hard. We could just as easily say "moving screws kids up" (sometimes it does), but that doesn't make it that simple.

Quote:

I wasn't speculating about what actually happened in your specific case and no one has any idea what would have happened if the divorce happened sooner. I was just pointing out that just because parents divorce doesn't necessarily make the problems go away or change anyone. I know many people that have ended up right back in the same situation or worse after a divorce.
You're right. Nobody knows what would have happened if my parents had divorced sooner. But, nobody knows what would have happened if your parents hadn't divorced, either...or if my parents never had, or if a previous poster's BIL (think it was) hadn't abandoned her niece, etc. etc. etc. Nobody knows. But, we look at divorce stats and how the lives of the children from those homes turned out, and we say "divorce screws up kids".

Familes where the parents are divorced are _all_ made up of families where at least one parents was unhappy - maybe it was abuse or addiction or maybe it was "just" selfishness, or maybe it was something else entirely, but at least one parent was unhappy. That parent was then either unhappy enough to take the step of ending the marriage, or selfish/immature/whatever enough to not even see that as a really big step (and yes, I do know someone like this, and her kids are well and truly on their way to "screwed up"...but it's not because she got a divorce). When looking at kids from divorced parents vs. non-divorced parents, we're looking at samples that were already different from each other _before_ divorce ever entered the picture.

Divorce is a life change, and an upheaval. It doesn't, in and of itself, screw kids up. How it's handled screws kids up. Things that go on after the fact screw kids up. Things leading up to the divorce screw kids up. Simply making the decision to end it? Not so much...at least not as some kind of natural law.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

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