# Watch out for those baby buckets!



## beanzer (Feb 3, 2003)

I just came back from a very eye-opening weekend visit with a friend who has a daughter a bit younger than my 15 mo old. I feel like my friend is pretty AP in that she really tries to respond to her baby's needs and cues, but I was really shocked at how much time her kiddo spends sitting in one kind of baby bucket or another.

Lulu sleeps in a crib, so there's 10 hours with no human contact right from the get go. She gets up and gets put in her playdeebug exersaucer (no human contact) while her mother makes her breakfast. Then she gets transferred to her highchair (a little bit of human contact) and gets fed. For a couple hours, Lulu played on the floor and crawled to her mother when she needed something(limited contact). She also hung in the jolly jumper (no contact) and went back in the playdeebug (no contact) while we had tea, because my friend is terrified she will get burnt by hot tea. Sometimes she goes into the playpen during tea time.

Then it was naptime, and back into the crib she went, with no human contact for another hour. After naptime, it was another round of the playdeebug, highchair routine.

Then we went for a walk, and Lulu sat in her stroller for over an hour. When we came home, she played down on the floor a bit, but was very clingy and wanted to be held (too much time in the baby buckets?). Dinner time was yet another round of the saucer/chair, and then Lulu played with her Daddy for awhile.

During her evening bath, she sat in a plastic ring in the tub with a bit of contact when she was getting scrubbed. And then it was back into the crib for another 10 hours of no human contact.

I don't use a crib, stroller, playdeebug, highchair, jollyjumper, playpen or bathseat, so I can't really relate. But by my estimation, Lulu is easily spending between 16 - 20 hours a day with little or no human contact. That's just so different from my child, who spends 16 - 20 hours a day IN CONTACT with me.

I wouldn't be the slightest bit afraid to talk to my friend about overusing her baby buckets, but I'm not sure if she IS overusing them. Is this normal? Do other people use buckets this much and still have happy, attached babies? Should I just MYOB?


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## chapulina (Feb 18, 2003)

IMHO, that is too much time spent in contact with non-human stuff. Of course, babies have individual preferences for the amount of touching they need/desire, but seems like even a less touchy baby would want a bit more nuzzling..?

I use the high chair for when I am cooking and dd wants to be near me ( too dangerous in the sling, as her reach has extended to incredible lengths!); however, I drag the chair with me as I go to different parts of the kitchen, and its easy to read her cues when she's finished with the chair.

don't use the exersaucer much these days, but was helpful previously when I needed to wash the kitchen floor...guess I 'm not washing the floor as much??

dd slept with us for the first 13 months; now she sleeps on "her" mattress in "her" room. she outgrew our king size bed (!); she literally needs an entire bed to herself to helicopter around all night long. dh and I lay down with her until sleep overtakes, then we move next door..

anyway, just how we use/don't use things in our household..


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

It depends on how you define "human contact" Sounds like she is with her mom or dad except for sleep time which is her own time.

So she's in an exersaucer while mom has tea. Is she NEAR mom? Is mom INTERACTING with her? If she is just plopped down and ignored, then yes, it's too much time without contact, but if she is being involved, there's nothing wrong with it.

I stroller my dd alot. She loves it. I stop and show her things, we talk (ok I talk..she babbles)
Just because I am not having her in physical contact with me doesn't me she isn't getting contact time.

I think it's fine to use a bathring. DD uses one and we are with her while she bathes. We talk, sing and play with her.

AP doesn't mean you have to be in physical contact. IMHO, it means you are in EMOTIONAL contact with your child.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree with Foobar. If the baby seems attached to her mom and happy, then that's all that counts. BUT--

is this enough exploration time for a toddler? If this baby is crawling or about to start walking, she needs more time to be freeeee! wheee! and exploring toddlerville. The visual exploration is good, but she should get more of that floor time you describe. (I hope I'm not being judgemental here, I have never been the parent of a toddler, and I keep finding out how hard things are as I go along!)

I don't know any toddlers who spend that much time protected in "buckets" as you termed them. It sounds like this mom is a little nervous about accidents.

It occurs to me that this might not be typical for your friend, though. She might have put the baby in all those baby-holders to have time with you.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

O.K. first, don't call them "buckets" because I think your friend would find this term really insulting. If this kid is happy I do think you should not even bring the whole thing up!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

[mod note: use of the term "baby buckets" has been offensive in past threads, and messages have been sent for edits to this thread. Please stick to the original topic.]
************************************************** *

my 2 cents (I'm passionate about this subject!







)

Numerous books have been written documenting the healing effects of touch. I think we as a society tend to overlook physical contact as one of the "necessities" of good health. How often have we heard "if they're dry and fed then they are just crying to be picked up", as if needing to be picked up was a bad thing, or a luxury that needn't be met if there are more pressing chores to be done. But more and more science is showing that physical contact and touch are an integral part of human nature and health.

Anyone familiar with NICU's will know about "Kangaroo Kare". It's a program whereby mothers hold their infants skin-against-skin for several hours a day. This has been shown to dramatically speed up healing, recovery, and development in sick and premature babies. The vital signs are regulated by being held: heart rate and variability, blood pressure, respiratory rate; the immune system is boosted, calming neurotransmitters are released from the brain, stress hormone levels fall...all these and more simply by being held. Twins benefit from being placed together in incubators in a similar manner. Not to mention all the physiological consequenes of baby sleeping next to an adult. Can we look at this evidence and still think that holding a baby is a benign act?

When you think about it, babies have evolved to be in constant physical contact for most of their early lives. You can look at any primate mother/infant dyad and see that. For a helpless infant in the wild, being untouched means abandoned and that means certain death. I'm not saying that little Joey is fearing for his life when mama puts him in his exersaucer. I am saying that a lifestyle whereby baby is held minimally is not optimal for his physical and emotional wellbeing. And this opinion is backed up by numerous studies. Go to any babywearing website and you'll find references to this. Babies who are held often are more content, cry less, and are more secure.

In no other culture are babies so routinely out of the arms of caregivers, and even in our culture it is a relatively recent condition (prior to prams, introduced by Queen Victoria, babies were held either by their mothers, siblings, extended family, or a nanny). Certainly we have a different lifestyle now, little help, and not always someone to hold the baby, but I don't think that we can ignore the fact that babies were designed to be held and in close physical contact with other humans for *most* of their day.

I think it's really easy for mothers to get caught up in their very busy lives. With all we have to do, and a baby (or more than one child!) to care for, the time in a day flies by, doesn't it? Do we really stop to ask ourselves "how often was my baby held today?". I've never added it up before and I'm sure that mother isn't aware of how much time her baby actually spends out of arms. I'm not judging anybody and I'm not saying that if you don't hold your baby for "x" hours a day then you're a bad mommy who's damaging their child. I just think that it gives us all something to think about.

stepping off my soapbox now!


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Piglet,
Um, I'm not sure how I was "off topic." The post was about getting involved with a friend's parenting and should you do it. The fact that the term the poster is using is offensive is very relevant! If you use offensive terminology your friends are not going to listen to anything you have to say!!!!!!!


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## nataliekat (Dec 3, 2002)

Obviously, human touch is good for all of us. But remember, babywearing is just one of the aspects of AP. It doesn't work out for everyone. I think Foobar's point about INTERACTING with the baby and INVOLVING her is important.

Since you asked if this is normal, here's what we have:

high chair
exersaucer
stroller

She sits in the high chair when she eats solids, but she still nurses a lot so gets a lot of contact. Plus, we co-sleep, so there's a lot of touching there.

She sits in the exersaucer when I'm showering, or preparing my or her food.

When I want to get some exercise, we go for a walk, her in the stroller. I found with the sling I couldn't walk as fast, and she got jostled a lot.

She gets a lot of floor time for her exercise, and to encourage crawling. Even if we're not always holding her, she's always with us. And we interact for most of the day. But there are times when she plays on her own.

Just my .02.








Much Love.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

some babies are happier (believe it or not!) w/less human contact. some babies can be happy in the exersaucer, in the high chair, in a crib, in the jolly jumper, in the stroller and GASP! in the dreaded bucket!

i have a fellow friend/AP mom who has a son who is happier to sleep on his own, often happier in a stroller than a sling and she felt bad b/c he wasn't attached - well, that's his personality. that's a system that works for them, nothing to feel bad about. i agree - interaction is the key.

i would love to co-sleep w/my dd2 as i did and do w/dd1 and dd3. dd2 will not have it. she is HAPPY and MORE COMFORTABLE in her crib for both naps and bedtime - 14 hours w/no human contact in a 24 hour day. this is a seriously attached kid. she is very huggy and cuddly when awake, but just sleeps better on her own.

so all kids are different. if you feel your friend is not INTERACTING w/her child at all and the child seems to be suffering, by all means, bring it up. but if baby is happy in these different devices, please don't judge.


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## mom2mygirls (Nov 10, 2002)

Iam going to put my two cents in I dont co sleep or ap But I do cloth diaper and try to save the planet and recycle. Iam very offended by this but I know people have there right to an opinion. but just because I dont ap or cosleep and I do use a walker from time to time and my daughter sleeps in a crib. but it does not mean that I dont love her any less I spend alot of time with both of my girls I tell them I love them 20 times a day. and even though Kimberly is in her walker I talk to her and play with her and when she is on the floor playing Iam too. just because parents dont ap or cosleep does not make them a bad parent. I just thought I would put my two cents in about my parenting choice.

Christina


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I know with my bad back and knees after dd got to a certain size I couldn't carry her anymore all day in the sling. So we did use the swing, excersaucer, and bouncy seat, but she was always near me and I was talking to her all the time. She also coslept with us. I agree that too much time is a bad thing, but when she's ready she'll protest all those contraptions as my dd did, when she learned to crawl and walk and then it will be impossible to contain her.

BTW my dd got a flat head in back because of too much time in the carseat/carrier. She had reflux and had to remain upright after feedings for 30 mins. and also slept in her carrier at night per ped's (bad) advice. So that's another risk to consider.

Darshani


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm with Foo and the captain on this one.

It is different from what you do with your child. My concern isn't that the child isn't in mama's arms...it's that she's not exploring and roaming.

Also, I think you can have attached and happy babies who spend time in baby gadgets. Even if they sleep in a crib at night, too. My DD wouldn't sleep with us at all. She rarely slept on DH's chest, either. She wanted her own space. We should have known that from the get-go since she lived in my womb with one leg straight out. (not kidding)

If you're visiting and baby is in the bouncer or whatzit, and she's fussing, ask "Does she like that pretty well? Does she feel confined sitting there?" or something. If baby and mama seem happy, they're doing alright.


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## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

I think you can have a VERY attached, ap parented baby and still use the 'equipment' you're referring to! We use a high chair for meals.... personally, I like to have 2 hands to eat my own meals, and we have fun feeding dd in her chair! We co-sleep, so we don't use a crib, but we do have a 'saucer', which DD LOVED for many months. She would spend a up to 15-20 min at a time a couple times/day (while I showered, made dinner, etc). It was FUN for her. Those jumper things are also FUN for babies. Mine loved to bounce up & down in the doorway. She also enjoys the occasional walk in the stroller.

We do have several slings & a baby bjorn & she gets TONS of 'in arms' time..... but I think the original post alluded to one important thing..... babies/toddlers NEED time to be on their own, exploring the world & figuring things out. That may mean some 'alone playing on the floor time', crawling around exploring the house, playing in the saucer, etc. If they spend every second of the day being held or in the sling, when do they have time to figure out how the world works on their own? I'm not saying your friend does or does not use the equipment too much, but I think using it in itself is not bad.

My dd has had floor time since she was a newborn. She loved the gymni-thing, loved looking at the toys. She was mobile at 5.5months, rolling around the house exploring. If I never put her down, when would she have learned how to do this? She's now walking at 10.5 months and is a VERY secure & attached little girl. BUT, she also spends time every day playing by herself. I think this is very important! She knows how to amuse herself, chats away with her toys, etc. I don't think it's my job as a parent to HOLD my dd every moment of every day, rather to be there for her whenever she needs me, but to foster her development in all areas.

Just my 2 (okay, maybe 3) cents








Amy


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

If you are saying that Lulu is slightly younger than your 15 month old, she is a toddler. Toddlers often do not want to be held.

My last baby was 100% ap, imo. For the first eight weeks, he did not leave my body contact. In fact, I had a particularly pathetic post when he was about 3 weeks old and I felt overwhelmingly guilty bc I had to put him down on the floor(he had no problem with it at all!)for 5 or 10 minutes to get my older two boys lunch!! But, as he reached 3 and 4 months, he started to really enjoy tummy time. When he got to six months, he liked taking stroller rides. When he was 8 months, he started walking, and believe me, I cold not hold him. It seems from your post, that except during the times when baby would be in danger, the baby always had unrestricted access to her mom. Was she crying when she was in the exercsaucer? if you think that your friend is ap and listens to her baby's cues, why on earth are you second guessing her judgement? Every child is ddifferent, every family dynamic is different, and I think that if the baby is happy, then it is no ones business how it is done.

I also really think that the amount of physical contact a toddler(not all toddlers







) needs is alot less than a little baby.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by angelwraps_
*My dd has had floor time since she was a newborn. She loved the gymni-thing, loved looking at the toys. She was mobile at 5.5months, rolling around the house exploring. If I never put her down, when would she have learned how to do this? She's now walking at 10.5 months and is a VERY secure & attached little girl.*
Well they do learn if they are in-arms. My youngest was worn almost constantly in the sling (Didymos) for his first 5 months or so, he was really only put down for diaper changes. He was rolling over at two months old, he was sitting independently and crawling at 5 months old, pulling himself up at 6 months old and walking by the end of his ninth month. He never had tummy time, never played under the baby gym. Once he was able to explore on his own, he spent less time in the sling and more time exploring. But always napped in the sling and slept with me. The only time he was not in contact with me was when he chose not to be.

Marcelle Geber's study of 300 Ugandan babies (home birthed) shows the amazing benefits of carrying babies in-arms. The babies had head balance at 48 hours, were crawling and sitting at six to seven weeks.

(Marcell, Geber - "The Psycho-Motor Development of African Children in the First Year and the Influence of Maternal Behavior." _Journal of Social Psychology, no. 47 (1958): 185-95_)

Babies are hardwired to be carried IMO.

Deborah


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

ITA with Piglet (you always have such wonderful things to say about this subject!







)

what i think of when i come to my conclusions about 'baby gagets' as someone called them- or when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!! that baby, if truly 'not wanting to be held', or liking to sleep isolated and alone, would surely die- that is, if the mother did not have her insincts, which tell her to keep the babe close and safe.

mother nature would not benefit by crafting human babies who desired to be isolated, just as is is implausible that babies cannot be born without hospital care, or that any large # of mothers cannot breastfeed. i believe in the perfection of nature's design.

of course, we live in a world that requires more of us than what we are designed to do as mothers- we're expected to raise children in homes filled with truly dangerous (to babes) situations like the oven and electricity, without a group of other mothers and grandmothers around us.

the really amazing thing is that babies and mothers are able to adapt to the adverse conditions we are given.

what shocks me about the excessive use of infant carriers (they are actually mentioned in some baby books as 'must-haves') is that they offer absolutely no mechanical advantage!! those things make is so difficult to carry a babe around in them! i see mothers carting these things around and i want to approach them and give them the sling off my back... please, take this- its so much easier! i guess the real 'ease' of those seats is that you can go from car to stroller to house, even let the baby sleep in them, why- you could go all day without touching your child, if you have one of those 'super absorbant' diapers!

... i don't have any judgements for anyone. i feel sorry for mothers who really don't realise how easy it is to parent if you follow your insincts. you have to dig, sometimes, to get at them. but once you get them flowing and start listening, its amazing how well suited we are to our roles.

tabitha


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I stand by what I wrote above, but wanted to clarify one thing. For some reason (possibly the fact that I read the OP while minding the lovebird didn't bite DD, that the cat didn't try to eat the lovebird, and that DD didn't yank the cat's tail, lol!)...I thought we were talking about a younger child. Now that I get we are talking about a toddler, I share the comments of others who noted that toddlers love to explore and love floor time.

I might have even spared y'all my speech, but now you're stuck with it! :LOL








<----- this is SO me (and DD is already a chatty one, too!)


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## LoneFemale (May 4, 2003)

I'm new here, so please don't laugh. When I read the title of this thread I thought it was about actual buckets. It took a few sentences to realize that's not what you meant.









I can't comment on whether the friend was overusing any of these things because I wasn't there, but since you were only there for the weekend, could she possibly have been using them more because she had company? It was just a thought.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Piglet-

I think you bring up some good points in your "speech" (lol) but I think with older children, they may want to explore more (and this is where I do feel bad for LuLu... I know Goo would be off and running if she can)

Tabitha-
I think everyone needs both, space and closeness. Quite often, Goo will push away from me when she wants to be "alone". I'll be near her, but she doesn't want to be held. Other times, she'll come and snuggle with me.
We all need both.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tabitha_
*when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!! that baby, if truly 'not wanting to be held', or liking to sleep isolated and alone, would surely die- that is, if the mother did not have her insincts, which tell her to keep the babe close and safe.

mother nature would not benefit by crafting human babies who desired to be isolated

... i don't have any judgements for anyone. i feel sorry for mothers who really don't realise how easy it is to parent if you follow your insincts. you have to dig, sometimes, to get at them. but once you get them flowing and start listening, its amazing how well suited we are to our roles.

*
My daughter wasn't a cuddly baby. She's five now and she is a hugger/smoocher/lovey dovey girl. But as a baby, she really DID want to sleep by herself. She would NOT sleep on my husband and believe me, he tried and tried and was sad that she was happier checking things out or snoozing on her own.

Don't feel sorry for me for following my instincts to put her down if that's what she wanted. She got her touchy time from nursing and that was enough for her.

I don't want any other mamas to doubt themselves about this. If your baby is happy and healthy and you are, too, it's WORKING for you. There is no reason to read this thread and think, "Did I do something wrong to my baby if my baby doesn't want to be held constantly?" If they weren't meant to eventually move about on their own in their own space, they wouldn't come OUT.

And a toddler certainly doesn't need the in-arms time that a smaller baby does. At slightly younger than 15 months, that child should be exploring...and perhaps the devices that contain her are restricting that...but I don't think taking those things out of the equation means she'd require more in-arms time.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

AP doesn't mean you have to be in physical contact. IMHO, it means you are in EMOTIONAL contact with your child.
ITA.

like someone else said, i thought this was about actual buckets.....mop buckets filled with cleaning solution and maybe a baby drowned in it. i have never heard of a highchair being reffered to as a bucket..._WTF?_

if her baby is happy, and mom is happy, then i agree, MYOB. if the baby was in opbvious prolonged distress, then thats another story entirely. but in your OP, it seems like the child was OK, you werent. every mom does things differently. a crib isnt a problem unless the baby is spending those 10 hours screaming.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:

- or when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!!
That may be so in theory, but my baby was AP'd from birth and once she started crawling did NOT want to be held at all unless she was sleeping or feeling sick/tired. Now that she's a very spirted toddler I can see that it was her personality coming out. We did the family bed until recently because she kicks the heck out of us at night-- trying to get her own space. She likes us to be with sight or earshot but wants to have her own space otherwise.

Just wanted to make it clear that not all babies are the same.

Darshani


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tabitha_
*... or when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!! that baby, if truly 'not wanting to be held', or liking to sleep isolated and alone, would surely die- that is, if the mother did not have her insincts, which tell her to keep the babe close and safe.*
If I didn't have the brother I do, then I would probably agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I remember, though, my mother telling me that my brother (who is a year and ten months older than I) completely threw her for a loop. She had very strong mothering instincts, having had an incredibly nurturing mother who died when my mom was 14, and three younger siblings that she had to mother after her own mom was gone. My brother was her first child and from the very beginning he wanted nothing to do with being held, nothing to do with being cuddled - he wanted to sleep, eat, and be left to himself. (The funny thing is that even now, at 30, he is very much the same. He's very loving in his own way, but needs a *lot* of personal space). She said she spent the first six months or so absolutely freaked out - her instincts were screaming to her to nurture and keep him close, and he wouldn't hear of it. This is not what she knew about babies and not what she felt in her gut was the right way for a baby to interact with his mother - she even thought there might be something wrong with him because he never fussed and never cried to be held.

(Of course, then I came along a few months later and she was happy to have such a "low-needs" toddler







: )

I guess my point is that although evolution tends to be a pretty logical process (with the occasional exception), it also needs to be looked at in a larger context. We can't simply look to what was necessary thousands of years ago - we also have to consider our environment in the not-so distant past -- an environment that has made it possible for babies to survive without sleeping right next to their mothers and without being constantly held.

Personally, I prefer to do things the old way - fortunately my baby agreed.


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## beanzer (Feb 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the input - even though I tend to agree with the posters who think babies are programmed to NEED human contact, even if they don't express it, I decided to just keep my mouth shut and let my friend find her own way. After all, no one knows Lulu better than she does. And Steph always responded immediately to Lulu if she showed any distress, and got her out of her plastic seat. Lulu is just 13 mos, btw.

But lo and behold, guess who called me this morning, saying that after I left with my dd, she noticed all by herself that Lulu was in a plastic seat far too much? She has also noticed that while Lulu is not *unhappy* being in a plastic seat, she is much happier if she gets carried. Steph says she is "in sorts" instead of "out of sorts".

So I stuck my nose in and asked why Lulu was sleeping in a crib, and it turns out that the husband doesn't want the baby in bed. So my friend is torn between husband and baby. How much does that suck







?

At least the baby is getting carried more, now. And she is happier because of it. Maybe the fact that a baby will tolerate being put in a plastic seat doesn't mean they are happy. I mean, a baby would eat twinkies and cheese puffs if that's all you gave her, and maybe even learn to like them, but that doesn't mean it's good for her!! Maybe the same is true for plastic seats, no matter what the shape or size.


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## nataliekat (Dec 3, 2002)

But again, it's really all about paying close attention to your child.

The mamas who put their babies down because they are pushing away and NOT happy when being held, I believe are truly paying attention and giving their children what they need.

It would seem that babies who fuss and push away when being held, but don't in an exersaucer aren't just tolerating the plastic seat. Isn't it possible they might actually prefer it?


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## geekmom (Jan 12, 2002)

I definitley have problems with parents keepign their children in isolated rooms away from the family too much when they're not sleeping, but anything that keeps the child in the midst of things is great.

I don't agree that humans or any creature for that matter has or is supposed to have huge amounts of physical contact. I think anyone who holds and looks at and hugs and kisses such is provding the kinesthetic needs. Most importantly respond to your kids touch needs, if they ask for more, provide it, less provide that.

What I think IS very basic to mammals and humans in particular is the invovlement in life. All children should be where the other peopel are. If you're cooking in the kitchen the kids shoudl be there. If you're in the living room the kids should be there. What kids hear and see even when they're infants is crucial. They're learning all about life and the world this way.

I have my 7 month old in an exersaucer during the evening cuddle time. My 5 year old, 2 year old, 1 year old, 7 month old, the dogs and I all gather in the living room and read books, listen to music, watch TV, dance sing and mostly cuddle and kiss. The kids roll over each other and laugh and tickle the baby and kiss him on the head and hug him. I'm with the baby all day long alone and need to have phsyical time with my other kids.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I know i posted before, but i must add that my adorable 5 yr old, with the bluest eyes you have ever seen, hates to be held and kissed. he demanded to be held for about 6 months, then that was it. it is so upsetting that i do not, and have not had "holding time" with him, my other two loved, just loved to be held and kissed. sigh. what i do to get my sorely missed kissing time, is to cut him a deal.....i will give him *2* fruit roll ups if he lays on the bed with me for five minutes (i set a timer) and i get to kiss him and hug him and smell his blond hair as much as i want during that five minutes.

i'm pathetic, right?

**no flame shots for the rollups, i'm desperate!*


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

sweetbaby - LOL!!

That's adorable!!


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I use freckles as an excuse to make my kids let me smooch them now that they're bigger and don't want mama all over them.

I kiss every new freckle. My former Anti-Snuggling DD now points out new freckles so I can be sure to kiss them all.

Freckles are fun.


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## vein (Mar 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tabitha_
*
what shocks me about the excessive use of infant carriers (they are actually mentioned in some baby books as 'must-haves') is that they offer absolutely no mechanical advantage!! those things make is so difficult to carry a babe around in them! i see mothers carting these things around and i want to approach them and give them the sling off my back... please, take this- its so much easier! i guess the real 'ease' of those seats is that you can go from car to stroller to house, even let the baby sleep in them, why- you could go all day without touching your child, if you have one of those 'super absorbant' diapers!
*
While I totally agree that there are a huge number of people who do use devices to ignore their kids, not everyone who uses these devices are NOT AP.

I have a physical problem with my knee, ankle, and leg. Because of this, my ankle often gives out and I often go splat on the ground unless I can catch myself. Until Gavin has stronger back and neck muscles, I NEED to use his car seat as a carrier in places we HAVE to go (post office, vet, bank) and have to leave my SO to take care of all other errands (like the grocery store). I would LOVE to be able to use a sling or carrier, but I'd be incredibly selfish and stupid to put him in one KNOWING my physical problems and KNOWING that it offers him more protection at the moment. Do I like lugging it around with a rat travel carrier in the case of the vet or with a bag full of packages at the post office? Of course not. It's bulky, it's heavy, and it's a pain in the ass to open doors.

That being said, whenever I have one or both hands free, they are both playing with Gavin in his carrier, he is being talked to the whole time, and giggles and laughs while in it, far from being ignored and forgotten. While he was in the carrier yesterday at the vet, he was all smiles and the vet said that he was an extremely happy baby.

Again, I'm sure a lot of people who use infant carriers on errands don't have a physical problem, but many of us do, so please don't think that we're any less AP or love our babies any less because we are keeping them safe.


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

One general thing I've noticed a lot is the tendency to extrapolate from your own kids(s) -- "If my dd was in that situation, she would be so unhappy, therefore this other child must be unhappy, too." It's a natural tendency -- I have certainly done it -- but I become more convinced with everything I read (both colloquial and scholarly) that kids have innate personalities which can be urged in one way or another but are very hard to squelch.

Say two moms are talking about their HS kids. One kid, Scott, is 7 feet tall. The other, David, is 5 feet tall. Scott's mom says, "Of course David can dunk the basketball! I was patient with Scott and did drills with him, and now he can dunk like a pro!" Scott's mom's patience and drills no doubt _helped_, but that doesn't mean that if David's mom does the same thing, David will be able to dunk.

KWIM?


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## Lifesabeach (Apr 8, 2003)

we a have a bouncey seat...4th kid and someone finally gave me one. anywho, I just want to sew without him on a boppy in my lap nursing, lol. he will lay on the floor for 10-15 minutes here and there... I think there is a balance.

I don't have a swing, high chair, exsaucers, pack n' play, etc not just because I know I would overuse them but because, who wants all that tacky lookin stuff sittin around the house?!....it's almost as bad as that little tykes lawn trash







:

if my friend's kid was always sat to the side, i'd jump right in and interact with him myself or ask if I could hold him.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by chellemarie_
*Foo and the Captain*
Oh wow! They were my favorite musical act of the late disco era! I have all their albums!!!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Regarding the OP, I think spending 20 hours a day out of physical contact is excessive.

Baby or toddler, I think such a young child should be encouraged to explore in and out of arms more hours than not each day.

It would really bother me to spend 20 hours a day without having physically touched by baby!

Out of curiosity, would the op be more disturbing to anyone if we were talking about the routine in a daycare? I try to withhold criticism of mothers, but if that same routine were being used in a daycare, I expect many more would agree the child was being deprived from play time and holding time in a very unhealthy manner, regardless of how content she may seem with her circumstances. If anything, we might find her acceptance of so little contact all the more troubling.

Is there a difference?


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

I agree heartmama. However, I think that the title blaming the equipment rather than the mother was what initially got things off track. JMHO.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I agree with laralou, I've noticed that when we go after the stuff and not the user people get offended because they use the "stuff" whatever it may be. I have a bucket n my bathroom. DD outgrew it as a carseat and I plop her down in it for my showers and for when I get in and out of the tub for her baths and showers so I don't worry about dropping her. I'm certainly not offended at someone calling it a bucket, in fact, we call it a baby tupperware because MIL's mom asked us if we had a "container" for dd when she was 6 days old. I have a highchair, a booster with a tray and probably some other "neglect devices" lying around, and I even use them for some things, but I don't neglect my daughter, kwim? While I am not offended by terminology that degrades these devices and appliances or whatever they are, I've ntoiced some folks get good and riled up about it.

That said, a frind of mine pointed out to me that some people refer to their carseat/ baby holder affectionately as "the bucket" so I don't think anyone should get too upset about it.

Back to the real topic, I am certainly not judging anyone's parenting styles or their own intuition about thier children, Lord knows you know your kids better than I do, but anthropologically speaking, children are designed to be held close, their instincts tell them it's supposed to be that way, and I think it is a reflection of our "modern" society that we think they want or need to be put down. Not only that, but our society requires that we put them down. To live a life even close to normal, we have to set our babies down to do some things. The problem I think is inherent in what we as a culture value, i.e. cars, houses, clothes, status in the form of jobs, etc., wanting these things separates us from our kids. When society's norm is all about separation and how many "baby containers" one can acquire at one's baby shower, it's easy to fall into the trap of separation which I probably don't have to point out is the opposite of attachment.

It may be that your frind thinks that these devices are cool and she had just wanted to play with them, kwim? Like I can't wait to feed dd solids even though she's not ready, just for yox. Like hey, maybe Lulu will like the jumper, let see... Look she's laughing, great, and then she puts her in there tomorrow and again the next day and it becames habit. Does that make sense?

I really don't want to get into it about specifics, but I have a hard time believing that so many babies (I mean all babies, not just MDC babies) want to be set down and that so many babies "need their space." I have a friend whose son is freakishly advanced and he is the most active and independent child I think I have ever seen and he doesn't "need his space." Babies are designed to be with their parents. Toddlers are like babies on wheels, they have baby brains and halfway kid abilities and they need lots of in arms time too, even if they also need lots of exploring time.

I'm glad your friend is realizing her daughter would benefit from in arls time, I think we all would.
Lauren


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Heartmama wrote
QUOTE] Out of curiosity, would the op be more disturbing to anyone if we were talking about the routine in a daycare? I try to withhold criticism of mothers, but if that same routine were being used in a daycare, I expect many more would agree the child was being deprived from play time and holding time in a very unhealthy manner, regardless of how content she may seem with her circumstances. I[/QUOTE]

Goo has less contact time at daycare than at home. I know that she fights being held by them except for bottle time. They've reported that to me. I have seen her do it when I am there! She'll actually push away so she can wriggle and be on the floor and play.

At home, she goes back and forth. Sunday I spent two whole hours of her running away, playing with a toy and then crawling over to me, hugging me and then running away again. I enjoyed it and I try to be there, but the truth is, she'll fight me if she doesn't want contact. She really does want space sometimes.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
*I have a hard time believing that so many babies (I mean all babies, not just MDC babies) want to be set down and that so many babies "need their space."
Lauren*

Well, sorry you don't "believe" it. My DD hated to be held. But babies like this didn't exist in the ancient past you say? WRONG. The brutal truth is that in those ancient times, babies like this did exist but unfortunatley sometimes not for long. Babies like this would often have been in a lot of trouble. There would have been a good chance of abandonment of a baby who cried all the time they were being held. (Read the book MotherNature for a fascinating discussion of this issue).

So my thinking is THANK GOD the past is past. And that babies with different needs can now have those needs met!


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## beanzer (Feb 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by alexa07_
*Well, sorry you don't "believe" it. My DD hated to be held.*

..._deleted by moderator_...


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Beanzer,
First no personal attacks please. Second, my dd did not like to be held from day one. She resisted bf'ing until I bf'd her without touching or stroking her, then she became a good eater. She would scream when I carried her in a sling and would only be happy if I held her facing outwards with my arms outstreached. She hated people touching her face. She loved being in a stroller. This all occured before we allowed her to learn to sleep on her own.

While, I understand you don't approve of CIO, my daughter was happier and calmer after she was allowed to learn to sleep alone. Please do not attack me and talk about things you know nothing about. Today my DD is happy and sweet and loving, but she tells me that long hugs annoy her and she does not like to be touched at all by people who she does not know well. She is articulate about her wants and needs and I respect them.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

This thread is now closed. It isn't going anywhere but downhill.


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