# The Power of Probiotics



## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

I compiled this list for a friend and thought it might be good here.

IMO, although very common these days the following are not "normal" for infants and toddlers and are evidence the need for a close look at dietary/health issues:

Reflux
Chronic Ear Infections
Asthma
Diarrhea
Eczema
Hives
Profound Food allergies of all types--- even to the extent of being deadly
Constant runny nose
Constant throwing up
Persistant cough
Poor appetite
Low growth- weight gain (except in cases where genetic predisposition dictates)

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/65/9/3763

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/444S

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/5/1035S

These are pdf files:

http://www.univ-lille1.fr/lea/Menu_d...cenier_CPD.pdf

http://www.slpk.sk/eldo/actafz/golian.pdf

http://www.nutricology.com/proddesc/...heet050103.pdf

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray

2/22/2004 Additions:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.victusinc.com/Enterales/R...Probiotics.htm

http://www.merc-buyers.com/FS-microorganisms.htm

3/14/2004

natha's "eczema" thread:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=95863


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## natha (Jul 2, 2003)

merci goodpapa!
excellent complement to my thread "eczema"


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I'm curious cause I have my own little "leaky gut" thread over in the vax forum called "Hope, Faith and Activism" (it started out as something but turned into something else.)

Maybe I'll bring some over and we can compare notes.










Always happy to meet other disseminators!

Ray


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks...very timely.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....words of my Spiritual Father...

"Energy is the only life, and is from the body; and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy.

Energy is Eternal Delight."

For the Visionary only,

Ray


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## CosmicMama (Mar 7, 2002)

New to the whole pribiotics thing but doing more research. A couple of questions for you. Is this something I should be taking and giving my 17 mo. old ds on a regular basis - adn if so -do you recommend a certain brand (I'd be buying it, not making it) and dosage to give to a babe/toddler? I've looked into some brands but it seems they are more recommended for a little older child.

Thanks.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....my local Whole Foods from a refrigerated case.

"Ethical Nutrients" Acidophilus and Bifidorum and

this:

http://jarrow.com/products/JarroDophilusfos.htm

you can check out the Jarrow site for the baby version.

I culture two different yogurts for everyone in my family from the two powders I buy.

The point of culturing is two fold. I believe they are far more powerful and ready for action when they have just been born and are in their metabolic products. Remember you're trying to get them to cohabit with the epithelial cells in the GI tract.

To get the volume of bacteria to really make a difference would cost a fortune. One or two caps a day ain't gonna do it.
Especially if you're still eating meats pumped full of antibiotics (gotta keep those sick cattle alive long enough to turn them into food!)

When my son started getting dairy at about a year he loved the yogurt so much he could eat 2 6 oz containers in a day.

Compare that volume to a couple of caps.

He went through his measles at 18 months with barely a rash-- it was very faint and stayed only on his chest and back, never made it to his face and limbs.

That's how strong his immune system is.

If you're not sure how that relates to the probiotics, keep reading the links I posted-- I promise that all the info is there.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## ColesMom (Dec 3, 2001)

He's finished his second round of antibiotics (another story!) and is now having digestive problems. He's had 1/4 t. of the babyjarrodophilous once a day, but I"m wondering if I can or should give him another dose or two throughout the day.

Anyone know? Thanks!!


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## bebe luna (Nov 20, 2001)

I myself take probiotics and will gladly sing the praises of the benefits of taking them...
but I think an even more important and effective way of obtaining health and balance from probiotics is through dietary therapies. Many traditional cultures around the world have long incorporated specific foods to their daily diet, foods that include beneficial bacteria, aka probiotics...
The Korean~ Kim Chee
Japanese~ miso, tempeh, oshinka, tofu, amazake
Chinese~ tofu
India ~ yogurt, tofu, and pickled vegetables
Europe~ yogurt, cultured butter and cheeses, pickled vegetables, sour kraut
Latin America~ cultured sour cream, pickled relishes
etc etc etc
We all could benefit greatly by incorporating these foods into our daily diets. I have seen great improvement in my digestive health and immunity once I began eating yogurt, tempeh, tofu, miso, sour kraut, and cultured sour cream on a regular basis.
There are also other foods that work greatly in conjunction to these foods by supporting healthy bacteria/flora levels~
-garlic
-onions
-shitake mushrooms
-apple cider vinegar
-ginger root
-apples
-cranberries
-blueberries
-lemons
-various chili peppers
-sea vegis


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....that establishes the importance of healthy flora for eliminating rather than absorbing the mercury (and other heavy metals for that matter) in our diets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I have seen reference to the fact that they help keep pesticides and other toxic chemicals from being absorbed by the GI tract but I still have to find a specific study.

The issue of mercury in our food is not limited to issues with fish consumption. Soils all over the world and specifically in the US are being contaminated by the burning of coal in power plants.

North Carolina' rain has tested at TWICE the level for mercury that the EPA recommends and we sure know that they aren't exactly the toughest standards.

Even if we eat organic we still need to have healthy flora in order to keep the toxins out.

If you are growing food on your property, as a rotational crop plant sunflowers, they draw heavy metals from the soil into their stems. I don't know if the metals migrate to the seeds or not, but without specific studies to reference I would throw the whole crop out.

For any interested in more info do a web search for "phytoremediation"

Ray

Ray


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

fascinating about the sunflowers. beautiful and a health benefit too. i love it.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....from my computer crash and burn.

Luckily, I posted everything worthwhile.

This is good for any newbies here.

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Thanks so much for that info.......


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

bump

(it took me 20 min. to find this!)

**
Also, I am having trouble finding Baby's JarroDophilus. Of the online retailers listed on Jarrow's website, they either don't sell it or their sites are malfunctioning. HELP!!

I think my son could use some. His poops have been really weird recently. Info on probiotics in a thread here called "poor weight gain and allergy" peaked my interest.

Thanks!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

What are the brand names, products you all get at Whole Foods? I found, for example, Kefir (organic lowfat), an acidopholus whole milk yogurt, and some other similar products. There's also a refrid. case in the natural remedies aisle, but I don't know which ones to buy.

I am not looking to culture own yogurt, just incorporate probiotics into dd and ds's diet in a relatively easy way (e.g., store bought yogurt if poss., adding probiotic powder to their milk.. or too good to be true????). FYI.. they currently eat mostly organic, whole foods - healthy diet by most standards. Just interested in natural boost to immune system, esp. during this flu season (and allergies run strongly in dh's family).


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## serenetabbie (Jan 13, 2002)

Thanks Ray







saved me a lot of searching!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

-


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

Is there a specific place to find information about the use of probiotics to treat/help a child who is receiving medication for lactose intolerance? I have a niece who has been on meds for over 3 years now and I just know theres more that can be done in her diet to get her off regular medication for an intolerance that was probably brought on by her diet to begin with. Thanks!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

-


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Goodpapa, Amnesiac, others..

I have done some reading on probiotics (incl on this website). I bought Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions, for example, and found it to be very informative (and a terrific read). But I still have so many questions and am left feeling more confused than before. I think what I'm missing is a "primer" of how to get started. What to give and when, how much, etc... I am hoping you might be able to help me and others who seem to be in the same boat.









I am interested in incorporating more probiotics into their diet, as I am fairly convinced of its immune-boosting properties and protection against allergies -- it being cold/flu season, dd and ds having been born early, and allergies running rampant in dh's family.. I worry about being "high risk" for illness and allergy. Dd and ds are 20 months old, healthy... they eat mostly organic foods, and I try to buy/serve whole grains as much as possible. Hardly any sugar at all. So their diet is already very healthy from a mainstream perspective anyway. They ADORE yogurt, and a few months ago, I switched from YoBaby to organic whole milk PLAIN yogurt (with fresh fruit mixed in) and they love it. Hmmm... anything else pertinent. Ds weighs around 22 pounds. Dd weighs around 27 pounds. They do drink organic whole cow's milk - around 12 oz. a day. Both were sensitive to dairy in my diet when infants, but have grown out of it and seem to tolerate dairy well now.

Now a few specific questions I still have...

1.) Is it possible to benefit from incorporating "probiotics" without culturing your own food. With twins, I cannot imagine finding the time to do this. Or if you can only do store-bought (e.g., Jarrow Baby, Kefir, etc.), should you even bother.
2.) Which products? How much? How often? For exmaple, will 6 oz. of whole milk yogurt mixed with a little Baby Jarrow powder each day be enough?
3.) How will I know it's "working"?? For example, will poops change? If so, how? (Sorry - yuck!)

Any pearls of wisdom you all have in getting started would be SOOO helpful. Sorry to have rambled on, but as I said, I'm sort of at the stage where I have more questions than answers.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

-


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## megtell (Mar 18, 2003)

The article below ran in today's Baltimore Sun about the issue of protection from probiotics. It was likely sparked by the press release we shared with you yesterday. It also discusses a number of studies similar to what we've discussed, so I thought you may find it interesting.

Copyright 2004 The Baltimore Sun Company
All Rights Reserved
The Baltimore Sun

January 5, 2004 Monday FINAL Edition

SECTION: TELEGRAPH, Pg. 10A

LENGTH: 1066 words

HEADLINE: Good bugs getting more notice;
Probiotics: Researchers say friendly bacteria can improve intestinal functioning and may be a source of treatment for a range of diseases.;
MEDICINE & SCIENCE

BYLINE: David Kohn

SOURCE: SUN STAFF

BODY:
As you read this, your intestinal tract is playing host to a multitude of guests -- several trillion bacteria, between 500 and 1,000 different strains.

But there's no need to rush off to the emergency room: This throng of tiny creatures, which together can weigh more than 4 pounds, exists in every human on the planet.

They perform a variety of useful tasks that our own bodies cannot. They keep harmful bacteria in check, help regulate the immune system and even make vitamin K, a key blood-clotting agent.

"We need bacteria. They do a lot for us," says gastroenterologist Jeffry Katz, a professor at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine.

Until recently, few researchers studied this complex internal ecosystem. But over the past five years, scientists have taken a closer look, and they're finding that some of these bugs may be able to prevent or treat a variety of ailments, including intestinal disorders, allergies and perhaps even some cancers.

"It's an extremely exciting area. We can exploit the bacteria within the intestine for beneficial purposes," said Dr. Fergus Shanahan, a leading researcher on "probiotics," as these bacterial treatments are known.

Gulping bacteria to improve health is hardly new. People have been eating yogurt -- milk fermented with bacteria -- for centuries. But recent research could lead to a range of specific probiotic treatments.

Some say probiotics can help offset the overly sanitized nature of modern society. This "hygiene hypothesis" argues that our rush to eliminate deadly microbes has also eliminated too many useful bacteria, inadvertently increasing the incidence of ailments they once held in check.

Much of the research has focused on intestinal illnesses, including Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Many probiotics researchers suspect that a disturbance to the intestinal ecosystem results in an excess of harmful, damaging bacteria.

Some scientists believe that adding "good" bacteria to the intestine can counter the harmful bugs. In a small study, University of Chicago gastroenterologist Stefano Guandalini gave daily doses of Lactobacillus GG, a particularly friendly strain, to children with Crohn's disease, an IBD that afflicts 500,000 Americans. Their symptoms improved markedly.

"The good bacteria seem to have a protective role," said Guandalini, who is now doing a larger follow-up study.

Other scientists are examining whether probiotics can treat allergies and other immune system ailments. Finnish researcher Erika Isolauri gave Lactobacillus GG to pregnant mothers and then to their newborn infants. Compared with a control group, these babies had half the rate of atopic dermatitis, a common skin rash.

Perhaps most intriguing, researchers are accumulating evidence that probiotics can help prevent colon cancer, which kills around 50,000 Americans a year. Irish researcher Ian Rowland has found that several microbes prevent precancerous cells from forming in mice.

No one knows how beneficial strains like Lactobacillus GG actually work. They may produce natural antibiotics that kill destructive bacteria, strengthen the intestinal lining or occupy key intestinal receptor sites, crowding out other microbes.

"The intestinal milieu is remarkably complex and difficult to study," said Katz, who suspects that most gut bacteria have not even been discovered yet.

Advances in genetics are making the job easier. In the past, many of these bacteria couldn't survive outside the intestine, and so couldn't be cultured in the lab. But researchers can now use DNA from dead organisms to identify new species.

Some researchers have moved beyond identifying helpful bacteria, and are trying to genetically engineer these microbes to make drugs or perform other useful tasks.

Bacteria are relatively simple creatures, so adjusting their genetic makeup presents fewer difficulties. And because bacteria are already adapted to the human body, they are unlikely to be destroyed before completing their assigned task.

This approach has already shown promise. Stanford researchers have engineered a lactobacillus to latch onto and kill the HIV virus. The bacteria live naturally in the human vaginal tract; if the modifications turn out to be safe for humans, the modified version could be the basis of an affordable HIV vaccine.

Even without definitive evidence that probiotics work, some doctors have begun recommending bacterial remedies. For the past five years, Dr. James George, a gastroenterologist at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York, has advised many patients to take probiotics for irritable bowel syndrome, a chronic condition that causes abdominal pain and diarrhea. Bacteria help a "substantial portion" of those who take them, he says.

Although proponents like George are an exception in the United States, probiotics are well-known and commonly used in Europe and Japan. In fact, they are a billion-dollar industry, available in mainstream stores and supermarkets.

In the United States, by contrast, such products are generally available only in health food stores or via the Internet.

"The concept that microbes could be good for you is foreign to people in this country," said microbiologist Mary Ellen Sanders, president of the International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics. The nonprofit group was formed in 2002 to bring scientific rigor to a field that even bacterial believers admit sometimes veers into snake oil territory.

Because the U.S. Food and Drug Administration classifies probiotics as foods and supplements rather than drugs, the industry receives little oversight. Some manufacturers take advantage of this: One company, for example, sells a "probiotic" after-shave. Katz recently analyzed 17 probiotic products and found that more than half contained far less bacteria than advertised.

"There are a lot of outrageous claims that have not been subjected to testing," added Shanahan, who is director of the Alimentary Pharmabiotic Centre at the University of Cork in Ireland. He worries that shoddy or overhyped products could taint the entire field.

Shanahan, who began studying probiotics 20 years ago, came to the field as a skeptic, expecting to find that probiotics had little or no benefit. Instead, he has been convinced of the opposite. "There are too many observations here that are real," he said. "We need to explore this."

GRAPHIC: Photo(s), Some bacteria, such as this Bifidobacterium longum R0175 (shown under an electron microscope), may be able to treat or prevent a range of ailments, including allergies and some cancers.; ALEXANDRA SMITH : UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

"We can exploit the bacteria within the intestine for beneficial purposes," said Dr. Fergus Shanahan


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## megtell (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

This approach has already shown promise. Stanford researchers have engineered a lactobacillus to latch onto and kill the HIV virus. The bacteria live naturally in the human vaginal tract; if the modifications turn out to be safe for humans, the modified version could be the basis of an affordable HIV vaccine.
WOW


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## tea lady (Jan 14, 2003)

The links in this thread have been so helpful to me. I wanted to bump it up for others to check out.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Update, and some questions...

I've been giving dd and ds Baby JarroDophilus (1/4 tsp) once a day for 4 days now. We've "upped" the amount of yogurt (Stonyfield Farms whole milk plain) they eat daily to ~6 oz. (up from 3-4 oz.), and added Kefir (~2-3 oz. every other day). Is this a good amount, variety? They are tolerating well, no ill effects at all - should I increase or leave as is?

Quick question re: poop (sorry, gross)... oddly, their poops have firmed up a bit. (They both had a mild tummy bug a week or so ago for a few days, and were having frequent (3-5/day), loose-ish green-ish stools. Sorry, gross I know.) Now they're firmer, still soft, maybe 2-3/day... but certainly not the "frothy" I've read Goodpapa describe. Is this normal? I would have thought they'd be practically runny at first.

Slightly OT... I have a general question about cultured milk. If someone has a milk sensitivity or allergy, can you still give them cultuered milk products (cheese, yogurt, buttermilk, cottage cheese..)? I've read you can, but why? I have some slight concerns that ds may be sensitive to too much milk, but am not sure about whether to include cultured milk products in the amounts.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....from my perspective.

Why runny poops? The good flora are knocking out the bad but they breed so prolificly that they constitute a healthy portion of the final product.

Four days seems like a remarkably short time to be seeing the benefits.

Maybe it's time to toss the store-bought and start culturing?

Honestly, the beauty of poops is that if the majority of parents were paying attention to their appearance they'd know early on of the health problems in their children that later manifest themselves.

Diarrhea is NOT a normal state of things for anyone, let alone a child. In fact, there is a strong link between GI problems (first) and autism (later) in vaxed children.

No more PharmaDestruction!

Ray

PS. The "why" of cultured milk is that the bacteria actually digest the proteins (primarily casein) that cause allergic reactions in children who have leaky guts. When undigested casein slips through the unprotected, flora absent, GI epithelial walls there is an IgE response from the immune system reacting to the foreign substance in the bloodstream.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...at the front page told me it was time to kick this up.

Hope everyone is getting cultured in the new year,

Ray


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## r+smom2 (Jun 18, 2003)

Hi,

I have been reading all the great news here on the use of Probotics. I am still a bit confused because I have never tried this before and would really like to start using this.

1. My ds is 4.5 years should I use the Baby Jarro powder on him or another one (please let me know) and how much to use.

2. My dd is 9 mths and has a eczema on her cheeks, I have been trying everything possible to get rid of it. I have even limited my dairy intake. I haven't started her on any yogurt as yet.

The yogurt that I use is Stonyfield 4 oz cups for ds.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

I really need to know how to get started, what I need to get started.

Thanks so much
Fay


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Hi r+smom2. I am fairly new to probiotics myself. However, I asked a lot of questions on this thread and a couple of other probiotics threads in this forum too, most of which answered. I also read a lot - many great links provided here by Goodpapa and Amnesiac. Also, I highly recommend getting Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions. Goodpapa recommended it, and I found it to be tremendously informative on all manner of health topics, but especially the cultured foods part.

For your 4.5 year old, you should not use Baby Jarrow. Use the regular adult powder, "Jarro-Dophilus+FOS". You can buy it online at several places, and Whole Foods may sell it. I do not think there is any reason not to [I}ultimately[/I] be giving him an adult dose (which is 1/4 tsp.). However, since he's new to it, I'd ease into it. Over the course of a week or two, start with 1/8 tsp. 1x/day, then if well tolerated (e.g., no diarrhea), work up to 1/8 tsp. 2x/day (once in the morning, and once in the evening - so this is the full amount, but split into 2 doses). As long as he is tolerating that well, you can give him just the regular dose (i.e., 1/4 tsp 1x/day). I have been using yogurt to give it to dd and ds - I just mix in the dose of powder to a SMALL amount of yogurt (small, so you know they'll take it all), mix it around, and in a spoon or two, it's all gone.

As for store-bought yogurt, I have not yet started culturing either. I use 2 kinds of store-bought cultured milk products:

* Stonyfield Farms whole milk PLAIN yogurt. I mix mashed bananas or applesauce into it, and dd and ds LOVE it.
* Organic Kefir (sold at Whole Foods). I use plain, and mix it with some juice. I figure a little juice is probably better than a lot of plain sucrose (table sugar). I guess I use about 2 oz. Kefir to 1 oz. grape juice, and dd and ds drink it down like a smoothie. You could also use mashed banana, which would be delicious.

I would advise against using anything with table sugar in it on a regular basis for children. I think it's just plain bad for you for a variety of reasons and encourages the growth of BAD "flora" such as yeast. That includes things like Stonyfield Farms Yo-Baby yogurt, Dannon Actimel, flavored Kefir, store-bought yogurt smoothies, and so on. It is very possible to make plain yogurt products very yummy with a little fruit.

HTH! Good luck!!


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I see in this forum would be solved with a simple homemade probiotic yogurt.

It is truly manna from heaven.

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Can I make my own cultured soy using soy milk? Any opinions on this product?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I agree with goodpapa about culturing your own. It is so easy it isn't even funny and my kids, who would never eat (plain) store yogurt gobble down plain fresh homemade yogurt. It's so much better tasting.

I am making some right now- I put a corningware pan in my Girmi yogurt maker since I had the jars full of my latest experiment- cultured almond milk!


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## MommyCat (Dec 16, 2003)

I was wondering about buying probiotics, Since they need to be refrigerated is it a bad idea to buy them over the internet? How can you know that they havent been been compromised? I looked at WFs the other day and didnt see any for infants.


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## looloo (Jan 29, 2004)

How does one go about making yogurt? can you recommend a book or website? or machine?
thanks,
Jenny


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

you've got all the sources of info right here on this thread.

You want low tech or high tech?

I use a Donvier yogurt maker, it looks like monni has a girmi one.

If you want to just go for it, you can use your oven. Just get a thermometer and some clean glass jars.

Of course you need starter. I use Jarrodophilus for one of mine and Ethical Nutrients Acidophilus and Bifidorum for the other.

Two different tastes, different organisms, and YES, the flavor is so good you really don't want any sweetner.

My wife can attest to that. (LOL)

Mommycat, how old is your child? Less than 2?

http://jarrow.com/products/BabYsJarroDophilus.htm

I get this at my local WF:

http://jarrow.com/products/JarroDophilusfos.htm

BTW, my son's been taking the adult one from about 6 months.

I like the assortment of bacteria in it better. I also based my assessment of what he needed on his size and weight rather than age as he is now at 2 bigger than 3 year olds and very close to some 4 year olds. 40" and 36 lbs. His 5 year old cousin is 41".

Anyone who is going to culture really doesn't need to worry about maximum viability of the bacteria (especially in the winter when delivery trucks in most of the US will be colder than a fridge)
you're going to be breeding your own.

My soy experiment didn't work ,but maybe monnie's almond milk did?

My goat milk DID work (it has less casein than cow's milk)

Remember, the bacteria digest the casein when culturing and change it into an easily digested form.

Good luck,

Ray

PS My son now goes into the fridge himself for his yogurt---makes a goodpapa proud.


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## r+smom2 (Jun 18, 2003)

Wow, this is one great thread. I have learned so much from this thread and started on the probiotic treatment with great results. Thanks to all who posted here with questions and those who answered those questions for helping us all.

A great heartfelt 'THANKS" here from me and my new family.

God Bless
Fay

My next attempt to try homemade yogurt, hee, hee, hee.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

goodpapa, did you go a "second generation" with your soy milk culture?

I found that my first generation (made with powdered starter) almond yogurt was very thin- more of a cultured drink, but when I used 6 oz of that to start a quart of almond milk I got fairly thick almond yogurt. The problem was it tasted sharp and needed sweetener.


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

wow - I have used the Jarro probiotics after our maybe 3 times use of antibiotics, but as we already eat yogurt and actually have a yogurt maker (from the 70's !!) I'd love to make my own - but my question is: how much of what organisms to you use per quart of milk? (organic, whole, of course) One cap per type? More info, please!

Thanks so very much

Barbara


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by goodpapa_
*Remember, the bacteria digest the casein when culturing and change it into an easily digested form.*
My DD is highly allergic to cow's milk and I've been reluctant to try...it's just not worth the weeks of eczema that result. Has anyone else tried cow's milk yogurt w/a very allergic two-year-old?

What about cultured rice milk? I'll try goat... (she is also allergic to almonds).


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I have an allergic child- I started him on yogurt and he can now have cheese as well- I rotate between cow and goat cheese. I don't know if all kids outgrow the allergy, but some do.

(He also outgrew his almond allergy- it used to give him a huge eczema flare)


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

monnie - how old is s/he?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Meg's mom- he's 23 months.


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## looloo (Jan 29, 2004)

i just made my first batch of yogurt. for the next batch, made with this yogurt as a starter, how much yogurt do i add to the milk?

also, if i use store bought yogurt as a starter, must it be unpasteurized?

thanks.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...whether it's storebought or homemade, 3 oz / 48 oz is good.

As long as storebought has "live cultures" on the label it's good to go-- all milk is pasteurized. IMO if you're goig to go to the trouble to culture why not get a high quality powder. Find a friend who's interested and split the cost of the intial container.

For any using jarro gelcaps for starter, 6 caps/ 6 0z container is good, but do only two containers so you can keep the rest for backup (it's good for a long time)

Of the two containers, use one to eat and half of the other to make the next (full) batch.

My soy milk culture just didn't take, my next move when I can find it here in central NC will be to culture raw milk. No heating to 180, just to 110 and culture. this will preserve the cow enzymes that are apparently good for us as well.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks, Ray!


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## MommyCat (Dec 16, 2003)

I recently came across an article that stated: Well I just looked for it again and cant find it but essentially it said that most yogurts and pills were no good because they contained the kind of probiotics found in animals and not in people.....
Is this the case???
They did give the names of 2 yogurts so I wonder if they were plugging them. I think Presidents favorite and maybe something that started with an E????
Anyway i am pretty sure that Ive never seen either of them around here anyway.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..".because they contained the kind of probiotics found in animals and not in people....."

We ARE animals (LOL)!

Trust me, you've seen the ones I recommend, I'm sure. I truly can attest to their health giving benefits. Try them-- I am positive you will like them.

Get Cultured!

Ray

PS HEY, I just noticed something.

What's that under my monikor?!?!?

RAGING LACTIVIST!!! LOLOLOLOL

I didn't do that!!!! Would the resident genius please step forward?

That's FANTASTIC


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Goodpapa-

My dh and I have just started reading about probiotics. We are big yogurt eaters but also enjoy kefir. I have read that kefir is easier to culture and also has tons of health benefits. I was wondering what your opinion is. Do you culture kefir as well as yogurt? Do you feel one has more health benefits than the other?

My husband is taking this on as his next project. We figure we spend about $6 a week just on yogurt so this would be a great way to save money. Plus no more trips to the store just for yogurt/kefir.

Thank you for all the links you posted above. We have saved them and will start reading through them soon.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

I am culturing REAL Kefir. Have been for a month now... Am loving it & its benifits! (I have crohn's disease)
It is simple, and we all love it (as a smoothie, blended w/ fruit of course!) :LOL

I am also curious to hear your oppinion goodpapa on kefir.....


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Ms. Doula, how does homemade Kefir compare to the store stuff? We get terrible sinus and chest congestion from store kefir, which is a shame since it is supposed to be a health food.

Not sure why we can tolerate yogurt, not kefir. Maybe because it's not fresh...???


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....that I started awhile ago.

Could we keep the probiotic and kefir stuff separate?

You'll see one link in that thread, I had more that I was going to start the discussion with, but my computer crashed and burned-- I lost those links.

BTW, the new computer is great and I'll be finding and sharing more webinfo as I find it again.

Check out my thoughts on the other thread, I had an initial anti-kefir reaction to the info because the sites were so anti-yogurt-- unnecessarily so.

It seems to me that both can coexist--- I just need more info about what these somewhat mysterious grains contain.

Most important to me is anecdotal evidence from people saying they "feel" the benefits.

I know I do when I eat the yogurts I make, that is in part the reason for my enthusiasm-- that as well as the links to research.

Ray


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Umm goodpapa... Kefir *IS* a Probiotic!!


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

even in the yogurt research that I've read clear distinctions are made between "probiotic" strains and typical yogurt strains, ie, the Bulgaricus ones.

In fact, Amnesiac (wish she were still here...oh well) sent me a great article that outlined how, in fact, the probiotic bacterium are antagonistic and vice versa to the yogurt type in cultures.

This is why I titled the thread "The Power of Probiotics" and not "The Power of Yogurt" because as of yet I do not believe that the typical yogurt cultures (Bulgaricus, Streptococcus Thermophilus, etc) are as beneficial to the body. Simply because what I culture is found in human bodies in permanent residence.

But this is just a hunch--- the research continues.

I want to see that kefir is truly "probiotic" (for myself)

Ultimately I don't care where the info goes between these two threads.

I'm just happy to be getting all of this--- yogurt, probiotic, kefir-- on the front page here-- generating interest...

....and good health for all, no matter what "culture."

I did post some discussion stuff on the Kefir thread--- some quotes from links that Quirky gave--- that have my analytical mind sparked.

I sure would like to hear more about your Kefir process, from where, when, why and how?

I said it before and I'll say it again, 90% of the illness, ill health problems that I see here would be cured by consuming some type of cultured food. So far we're just dealing with the dairy ones.

Ray


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...on probiotics is getting out.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...990512,00.html

Ray


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm in the process of trying to make my own yogurt using the Jarro caps ...

I have a Salton 5 cup thingy and I just put milk and probiotic powder , warmed up, in it ... 4 hours later and I still have liquid.

*sigh* the powder didn't seem to dissolve very well, no matter how I stirred.

Any suggestions on what I did wrong??

thanks

Barbara


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....with a thermometer?

I'm assuming you've never used this maker before.

I wish you'd mentioned that you were about to try before you did, cause the first time I'm culturing from the powder I only make two cups and use about 6 jarro gelcaps/cup.

Also, I don't know what type of container your using, does the lid seal?-- are there threads on the lid and jar top (glass or plastic).

Again, when I'm working from the powder I put in and tighten the lid and shake quite a bit. Stirring is only for when you're working with actual yogurt starter.

Also, you have to heat to 185- 190 F first, and then cool to 110-115 F, not just warm it.

Hang in there, it will work, just get me more details.

Ray


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## EBM (Feb 9, 2004)

You may have to register to view this (it is free).

To Print: Click your browser's PRINT button.
NOTE: To view the article with Web enhancements, go to:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/468412

Probiotics Well Tolerated, Safe in Infant Formula


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...it's nice to start getting "official" recognition.

"To our knowledge, this is the first careful documentation of intake of live bacteria over any extended period of time in any population. The intakes studied can be used as a benchmark for well-tolerated, safe intake of these bacterial agents," the authors write. "Long-term consumption of formulas supplemented with B. lactis and S. thermophilus was well tolerated and safe and resulted in adequate growth, reduced reporting of colic or irritability, and a lower frequency of antibiotic use."

This is the gist of it for those that aren't registered (though it's free and easy)

Ray


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

Hey, Ray

Thanks for the info. After about 10 (!) hours I did get a soft gel.

I do have the thermometer, although not the instructions! for the Salton. The lids for the cups are the snap on kind.

I used 12 oz whole milk, and added 12 caps of Jarro probiotic when the thermometer was at the "add starter" stage - I have no clue as to what the actual temperature was, as there is no calibration... Perhaps my error was in not shaking the powder more fully into the milk?

Further insights would be most appreciated. Can this soft yogurt be used as a starter for the next batch?

thanks a lot; I'm really looking forward to incorporating probiotics into our diet.

Barbara
and ******
and Noah
and Nathaniel


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

I made my first attempt at home made yogurt a few days ago.

I used whole milk,
heated it to 185 degrees
let it cool to 115 and added the Yogourmet starter
Put it in a quart mason jar and put in in a cooler with water at 115 degrees.
I let it sit for 4 1/2 hours as the directions say.
It tastes good but has a weird texture, its kind of lumpy. I usually eat Stonyfeild farms yogurt and its very creamy and smooth.
Is lumpy just the nature of homemade, or did i do something wrong?


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

arimama, if it tastes fine, it should be good. You might incubate longer for firmer yogurt. Also, if you use this as starter, the second generation is usually firmer, more uniform. Another thing- did you wisk the powder in? I find a wisk gets it mixed up better than a spoon.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I finally got around to using my new yogurt maker that I got for xmas last night! It's a Girmi and has glass jars.

This is what I did: heated a quart of unhomogenized (but pasteurized) organic whole milk up to the boiling point. Let it cool. Whisked in 5 Tbsp organic whole milk yogurt plus 2 tsp. Country Life MaxiBabyDophilus just for kicks. Poured into glass jars that had just been through dishwasher. Put in yogurt maker and plugged in it. Let them do their thing for about 10 hours. Couldn't have been easier!

The result - yummy yummy yogurt!







I mixed some organic blueberry preserves (sweetened with grape juice) into it to get ds to eat it, as he wasn't interested in it plain.

Question - why exactly is it necessary to heat and then cool the milk, if it's already pasteurized when you buy it? Anyone know?

And goodpapa, I'd love to see that article from amnesiac about yogurt and kefir counteracting each other? I consume both, and don't know why that would be bad (if it is).


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Quirky- from what I've read, heating the milk and cooling it helps the yogurt "set" better. It also kills any bacteria or yeasts that got in there while it was sitting around.


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## looloo (Jan 29, 2004)

we have now been making our own yogurt for over one week, and we love it! my husband remembers eating homemade yogurt with a layer of cream at the top. does this mean anything to anybody? how would we produce that?
thanks


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

loloo, if you use whole milk, you should get a layer of cream on top!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Cream-top yogurt is the best. I can't wait to crack open a new batch of homemade yogurt. I like it best cold -- I like the cream part to set up a bit in the fridge.

You need *non-homogenized* whole milk fo the cream to be on top.


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## EBM (Feb 9, 2004)

.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Amnesiac-







Hey hon, your confusing an already confused momma! :LOL

What would you not like to be where???


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Melissa -- She's referring to EBM's link in the deleted post, so it's irrelevant now.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

... in the first post.

L. reuteri and Cryptosporidium--- good vs. evil (at least for us humans)

and a general info link that looked short and sweet.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey there, here is a question for Goodpapa and anyone else you may know the answer! Can you grow Lacto. salvarius? It is dental specific probiotic and I have only ever seen it in the Udo Erasmus Super five chewable probiotic that also contains 4 other strains of probiotics. Anyone ever heard of this strain? I would love for my dd to have this from a food source everyday to help prevent early decay. (She is statistically at higher risk although so far no decay!)
Thanks for the advice
Colleen


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I'll include it here:

Let's clarify for a minute...
All of the bacterium that are called "probiotic" are originally soil-based bacterium.

There are approximately 40,000 different TYPES of bacteria in a teaspoon of soil.

Now, some of them should be in the human body and of course some not.

The first step in culling out the bacterium that we as human animals need is the plant and animal world. Just about every culture and civilization has derived bacterium from animals-- whether directly through animal husbandry or , for instance, in the case some Native Americans, eating the intestines of bison directly after a kill. Most likely, when I can get the raw milk that I should be able to soon, I will take the milk from the healthy animal and culture it simply by heating to 110-115, without the additon of anything. Now, this animal will have to be a grazing animal, and most likely the best bacteria will come in the fall after plenty of grass grazing.

When I start making sauerkraut, should I choose to do it the completely "natural" way, I will put the cabbage in the brine (inhibiting bad bacteria) and wait for the natural lactobacillus that are in the cabbage to start breeding. At this first stage all sorts of bacteria will be breeding (even with the brine) and this is why some culturings fail. In a successful culturing the lactobacillus will take over in time, becoming the predominant bacterium and resulting in a good, tasty sauerkraut. To ensure success I will separate out the whey from my yogurt and add it to the cabbage FROM THE BEGINNING to give the inherent lactobacillus a head start.

What are called "Probiotics" have all been derived from humans--- these are the sources. Thus, they have survived the high-acid stomach conditions.

Without any specific names--- actual scientific names-- I view these HSOs with a great degree of scepticism.

It was the same with KEFIR--- they always compare themselves with "Probiotics"-- claiming greater everything, yet there are never enough details to distinguish them in any meaningful way from "Probiotics."

If someone actually takes these HSOs and reports even feeling "better", as I have with my experience, then I'd be more curious.

So far, everything I've seen claimed about "HSO"s here, can also be said for what are called "Probiotics"---- everything.

So far, HSOs are simply a marketing gimmick.

Ray

PS mountain mom, I have seen L. salvarius kickin' around in my research, though I don't think it's the only one that combats tooth decay.

From what I remember the important thing is to fight Streptococcus Mutans--- the primary cause.

Regular yogurts with just about any Lactobacillus will help.

Why don't you break a tablet and see if it'll culture. I'm very curious. BTW, what are the other strains in the tablet?


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

well, I just got some new Stonyfield "moo-la-la" yogurt, brought it home, looked up the website and found it had L.reuteri ... Cool! But expensive, even on sale.

http://www.stonyfield.com/HealthyFoo...aranteed.shtml

I still can't get my jarrow based milk to culture. Can it be that I got a "bad" bottle of jarrow??

Do you *have* to add powdered milk? I haven't.

thanks


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey good papa thanks for writting back so quick. Here is the website: http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/p...r5_lozenge.htm

We also use the infant blend powder for our dd and I take the adult super 8 daily. In addition to these supplements we culture out own youghurt and make fermented veg every fall such as cabbage, beet carrot ginger "craut".

dinnertime gotta run.....


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

here goodpapa- http://www.kefir.net/kefir4.htm

and this:

Both kefir and yogurt are cultured milk products, but they contain different types of beneficial bacteria. Yogurt contains transient beneficial bacteria that keep the digestive system clean and provide food for the friendly bacteria that reside there. But kefir can actually colonize the intestinal tract, a feat that yogurt cannot match.
Kefir contains several major strains of friendly bacteria not commonly found in yogurt, Lactobacillus Caucasus, Leuconostoc, Acetobacter species, and Streptococcus species. It also contains beneficial yeasts, such as Saccharomyces kefir and Torula kefir, which dominate, control and eliminate destructive pathogenic yeasts in the body. They do so by penetrating the mucosal lining where unhealthy yeast and bacteria reside, forming a virtual SWAT team that housecleans and strengthens the intestines. Hence, the body becomes more efficient in resisting such pathogens as E. coli and intestinal parasites.

Kefir's active yeast and bacteria provide more nutritive value than yogurt by helping digest the foods that you eat and by keeping the colon environment clean and healthy.
Because the curd size of kefir is smaller than yogurt, it is also easier to digest, which makes it a particularly excellent, nutritious food for babies, invalids and the elderly, as well as a remedy for digestive disorders.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

I've seen that site before, though I appreciate your posting it to discuss.

In the case of MY yogurt, the following simply isn't true:

"Yogurt contains transient beneficial bacteria that keep the digestive system clean and provide food for the friendly bacteria that reside there. But kefir can actually colonize the intestinal tract, a feat that yogurt cannot match."

The two different yogurts that I make have bacteria that actually have come from the GI tracts of human beings. They are extracted, purified, and cultured. So they in fact DID colonize the GI tract of the donating individuals and are naturally found in humans.

On other KEFIR sites I have seen them emphasize, in fact, that Kefir must be eaten every day or the bacteria will dissipate. Quite confusing. Ultimately, if Kefir were permanent all that would be necessary would be one serving.

As far as this claim:

"Kefir's active yeast and bacteria provide more nutritive value than yogurt by helping digest the foods that you eat and by keeping the colon environment clean and healthy."

MORE "nutritive value" , where are the details? This type of commentary is one of the reasons for this thread. I think I've documented quite extensively the specific bacteria and their extensive nutritional and health aspects.

I still haven't seen any info on the need to supplement our diets with yeast. I get so much in the natural breads I eat and if anything yeast seems to be more of problem from what I've seen on these boards. And yes, I know there are different yeasts but I want to see clear info that the type of yeast in kefir is distinct from the types in my breads and beneficial.

I still am going to try Kefir. Amanda (Gale Force) has generously offered her grains--- I'm just waiting for her to finish moving (I'm sure she's got more than enough to do--- I'm a veteran of the moving wars myself).

What bothers me about most of the Kefir sites is that they are all very similar to the one you posted.

It turns into a pissing contest, without any hard facts.

Can't we all just get along?

:LOL

Everyone get Cultured!

PS Colleen---don't know why but I can't get the PDF informational file to load yet from the website. I'll keep trying.
As far as making " fermented veg every fall such as cabbage, beet carrot ginger "craut"."

I'll be asking you for more details once I get started fermenting. The beet carrot ginger craut sounds fantastic--- what a nutritional powerhouse!

Barbara-- it's time to test your yogurt maker to see if it's holding the right temp. Heat plain water, pretend your making yogurt, and test the temp of the water after a few hours to see if it's still in the target zone. I'm sure your Jarrow is just fine. I have two yogurt makers when I do my batches. One runs hotter, one runs colder. I set them both for 2 hours and then switch them out to even out the culturing temp. I'm pretty sure the one time I lost my culture was by overheating and essentially cooking them. They have to be at 110-115 F for optimal breeding. One interesting factoid I came upon recently in researching enzymes is that temps higher than 118 F destroy them. Remember cultured products are rich in enzymes. The lactose (sugar) in milk is converted by our little friends into the enzyme lactase. This is why my wife is no longer lactose intolerant as she was when I met her. She now has the necessary internal bacteria to digest the milk.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I thought my ears were burning.

Ray -- my life has been crazy for two years and will be crazy for at least six more months with this move. We've actually got the house and are moving into it slowly and will list our house in the next two weeks. Who knows how long the move will actually take. The weather is decent now for a shipment, so we should do it soon. I don't plan to dehydrate them, just send them as-is, so it's important that we do it this winter.

This is an interesting discussion and I look forward to fermenting more foods in the future. The new house has a very big kitchen, so we've got all kinds of space for kitchen experiments. The book "Wild Fermentation" is on my wish list. Perhaps I'll wait on it, though, and get it at the new address.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....thanks for checking in.

I PM'd you.

I've got the Wild Fermentation book and it's full of detailed info on all kinds of culturing.

As I get started in the next couple of weeks, I'll be disseminatin' all of the stinky details.

Get started looking for crock pots. Apparently they're not so easy to find anymore. There are alot of potters here in central NC so I'm looking for a good supply.

Ray the soon to be Kefir King


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

So I've been packing the car and thinking about my summer. My mom and I are going to go on our super-strict anti-candida diet this summer when the mvoe is over and the garden is in full swing. I think we've learned enough that we might be able to lick it. When I've been on the diet before, I've been very food-sensitive because the diet is so clean. So, I am going to try both of Ray's yogurts this summer while on the diet (the bacteria is going to be key to success anyway). And just to make it more interesting, I am going to have my chiro muscle test Ray's yogurt, my (probably) crappy yogurt, and my kefir. I don't know if we'll be able to distinguish too much -- it may just be "this is good, this is bad" as opposed to some scale of bacteria paradise. And the results also will be specific to my body, but I think it will be interesting nonetheless.

I've also got a glass gallon jar for you Melissa if you want to size up.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

WOOO HOO!!!! You betcha! THANKS Amanda!!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

How about amasake? Anyone make their own amasake? It is a staple in our house but is so darn expensive. Yet another way to have a daily dose of probiotic through food source. My dd loves it, especially the almond flavour!


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Elaborate pleeeease!!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Amasake is fermented rice milk. Here are the ingredients: Filtered Water, organic brown rice, organic almonds (or other nuts or fruit such as blueberries, this ingredient can be left out), vanilla, culture, celtic sea salt.
It is sooooooo yummy, tastes like a milk shake, thick and creamy.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

ohh that looks good. have you made your own?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

No I have never made amasake. I wonder if you would make milk out of the rice first then ferment it with the culture or would you ferment everything then strain. I can't imagine it would be too hard just wondering if anyone out there has a recipe. I would assume one could find the recipe in a macrobiotic cook book or website.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group.../message/15066


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks megs mom you rock!!!


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Just thought I'd come tell someone who cares...









DH made his very first batch of homemade yogurt last week and boy is it yummy!! No yogurt maker he rigged up his own system and we both found it to be much easier than we anticipated!!

Dd loves it too.

How do you all flavor? We do sometimes add fresh fruit, but we love the vanilla flavor of the Stoneyfield stuff we *use* to buy. Can I just add some vanilla extract?

Tonight we are meeting a local person who has some kefir grains they are going to share with us.









I am so excited that we are going to have our own homemade yummy probiotics. The expense of this was really getting to us (almost $4 per container of Stoneyfield in this area and the the three of us could easily take out three containers of week + kefir)

Anyhow, just wanted to share! Hope ya'll are having fun "getting cultured" :LOL


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I DO like to know.

Keep me posted on the kefir, I might start doing that as well.

Here at the ranch we sometimes mix fruit smoothie (strawberries, bananas, mango, papaya, kiwi) into the yogurt.

It don't get no betta!










Ray


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## bluegreen (May 9, 2002)

great thread -









i am just starting a pro-bio-tic life cycle - and have a question or two - anyone read the garden of life company's book,' patient heal thyself'? in it Dr. Rubin recommends a 30 hour cultured probiotic goats yogurt - can't find the page where he probably explains why 30 hours is the magic number?








also, i'm tempted to order some of the whiteegretfarm yogurt he recommends (just curious) - how much of it need i add to some raw milk when attempting to make my very own first batch? i do plan on using goodpapas suggestions (powders ...) oh yes!
i have a life of leaky gut behind me (almost!!)- and ALL that has come with it - now my ds at 15 months - well ...







i of course unknowingly inocculated him with the bad and didn't give him the good (didn't have any) - until now.








he's no vax, no antibiotic - but has 'stuff' .... i won't even write it - too powerful to state - he's going to get stronger and healthier - that's all i want to say








culture rocks!!

mb


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...good luck and God bless.

I do have profound belief/experience of the body's ability to heal itself. We didn't make it through the millennia by accident--- we evolved as an extension of the natural life that we now need to survive and thrive.

Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food. (Hippocrates)

Those little bacteria can even keep toxic metals (ie, mercury) from entering our bloodstream from our GI tract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

When I make yogurt from yogurt I use 3 oz (half of my 6 oz jar) to make 48 oz (8 x 6oz jars)

If you have time, I'm curious about which individual bacteria Dr. Rubin discusses.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I just tried making kefir this weekend- and it worked great. You can buy starter at Whole Foods. Like yogurt, it was much better than the store stuff and way cheaper.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...can you give more details, the brand name, package info, etc?

I've never seen it at my Whole Foods, don't even know where to look.

I have seen Kefir in the refrigerated section--- but I guess that's not what you mean?

Very curious,

Ray


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

It's Yogourmet brand starter, by the powdered yogurt starter in the refrigerated section.

It's in a box.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..Dr.Jay will take a look.

No more PharmaDestruction!

Ray


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Monica,

I've seen that kefir starter, I just wonder why people use it. Why not make real kefir with kefir grains? Are you anywhere near California? I'll send you some. If not, post on this yahoo group and someone would surely hook you up for the cost of shipping:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Kefir_making/

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

MB -- Good for you. It sounds like you are doing well. I haven't read the book but I do let my yogurt culture for at least 24 hours. Supposedly you end up with a lower lactose prooduct, lactose feeds yeast, so lower lactose is a good thing.

Best of luck to you.

Amanda


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

T
punkprincessmama
What part of Texas are you in, I'm in deep east texas (behind the pine curtain







)

Question for you though...would you mind telling me about how you're making yogurt? I really want to, but don't have the $ to buy a machine right now.
You can pm me, if you'd like. Or anyone else for that matter...with any advise.
Thanks much!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Gale Force, what's the difference between "real kefir" and the freeze dried starter bacteria? Mine turned out great with the freeze-dried starter.

What is a kefir grain made out of? What advantages does it have over the stuff in the box?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Monica,

I am not really sure what the box stuff is. I assume they take the bacteria normally present in kefir and make it into a yogurt-like starter. I assume you made it much like you would make yogurt. Is that true? I also wonder how well the bacteria would actually colonize your GI tract. The real deal kefir is made with grains, the live on the sugar in the lactose and reproduce right in the milk as they culture it. You don't have to heat the milk, just put grains in the jar, pour milk over them, cover them lightly and put in a cupboard. A day or so later, you have kefir. YOu strain out the grains and start again. You get a great cultured milk product for the cost of milk.

Amanda


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Thanks, Amanda. The grains sound more cost effective, since you can reuse them.

Just curious- what are the grains? Are they actual grain? I'm wondering because I can't have any gluten-containing grains (wheat, rye, spelt, barley).


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## scientist (Feb 24, 2004)

zanelee,

i am punkprincessmama's husband. being the yogurt maker of the family, she mentioned to me that you had some questions.

here is basically what i do:

i mix 1 gal. milk and 1 3/4 cups dry milk and bring that to boil in a pot.

immediately cool to 110 F.

i then pour this into the empty 1 gal glass yogurt jar (it's actualy a tea jar). it needs to have about a cup of the old yogurt left in it.

i place this jar over a pot of steaming hot (not boiling) water. i use the stove to keep the water hot, and the steam from the water to keep the yogurt warm.

it needs to be kept at 110 for about 5 hours. it is done when it has a custard like consistancy.

i started with a cup of the horizon organic. we like the consistancy.

i got the recipe off a website. here is the link:

http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/Dairy/g449.htm

if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

YIPEE!








Thanks so much! I'm off to try and make yogurt!!!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Monica,

You've asked the age-old question -- what are kefir grains. Legend has it, the grains were given to the tribes of the Caucasus by Allah.

Here's a resource (which may address the starter too):

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html

Amanda


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Thanks, Amanda!


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## scientist (Feb 24, 2004)

that's excelent zanelee, let me know how it turnes out.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

Your monikor seems quite clear, are you in fact a scientist?

Also, could you re-do the link in your last post, I can't seem to get through.

I need to do bulk yogurt for the whey to start culturing vegs, but I'm not quite sure I get this:

"i place this jar over a pot of steaming hot (not boiling) water. i use the stove to keep the water hot, and the steam from the water to keep the yogurt warm. "

I guess you use a metal grill to suspend the jar over the steaming water? Also, is the yogurt jar then just heated as the steam rises up past the glass? The jar is itself not enclosed, correct?

Just checking.

Again, welcome,

Ray

PS Here are some new links I'll be including on page1 soon, just wanted to get them out there:

check out especially the conclusion of the first:

http://www.lib.umich.edu/taubman/res...ngDonaldYM.pdf

Also B.breve and L.casei function here:

notice anti-rotavirus, anti-flu, and with L.casei IgE modulation--- remember eczema and allergies are IgE responses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


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## scientist (Feb 24, 2004)

goodpapa, i am just finnishing up a double degree in boilogy and chemistry. i chose the name because that's what my wife (punkprincessmama) calls me.

i actualy use an empty metal soup can that i punched a bunch of holes in (i'm very cheap). i set the can in the water with the water level just up to within an inch of the top of the can. then i set the jar on top of that. and yes, it's just a plain glass jar with a plastic top on it. i stick a thermometer in through the top. the stem is not used to heat up the jar, rather it is used to keep it warm.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....I'm getting ready to add yogurt culture #3 to the process.

I found the Nature's Way Primadophilus Reuteri at my local conventional grocery store (don't buy much there)--- but there it was in the refrigerated section for 3 bucks cheaper than what I had seen online.

Lactobacillus Reuteri-- apparently the major bacterial constituent of healthy breastmilk. (the last link, I think)

After discovering it's power to battle Cryptosporidium parasite, a pretty potent accomplishment:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I also found this info intriguing:

http://www.victusinc.com/Enterales/R...Probiotics.htm

Especially, this:

"Reuteri is reported to be a universal enterolactobacillus, being the only member of its genus found in the gastrointestinal tracts of humans and most of the animals so far examined, including cattle, pigs, mice, rats, hamsters, gerbils, chickens, turkeys and ostriches."

It's prevalence in the animal world definitely caught my eye, and it is NOT in any of the yogurts I make.

I then went on to find these:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.chichiyasu.com/e/reuteri/lactoreu02.html

I've got a bottle with 30 gelcaps (just to recount for any that might benefit) and they're kind of small so I'm going to use 8 caps per 6 oz and make only 2 of my 8 possible jars in the unit just to conserve supplies.

Then I'll eat one, and use half of the other to make a full 6oz x 8 (48oz) batch.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## vegmom (Jul 23, 2003)

Let me know how the culture turns out. My L.Rueteri powder contains corn syrop and dd loves to eat it in her yogurt. I am not sure how the corn syrop will affect the culturing process.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Hey- Gale Force- PM me for the best time to come get my New Jar!!


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## cornflake girl (Jan 2, 2002)

Maybe this is a silly question, but... for how long can I reuse my yogurt as a starter for new batches? I started with brand new Jarro caps about 4-6 weeks ago and my last batch of yogurt smelled a bit yeasty and tasted even more bitter than usual. Should I start over with new caps?


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...time to make a new culture.

You've got to keep all objects related to the process clean--- right before you make it.

Airborne yeast can get on the surface of the jars if you wash and let them sit for awhile before culturing.

Also, if the milk is pasteurized you have to heat to 180 F first before culturing at 110-115.

If your careful about this issue the starter just keeps on going and going....

First culture of the L. reuteri worked great. It didn't seem as tart as my other two but the texture was so silky. Quite pleasureable on the tongue.

Actually the mix is L. rhamnosus and L. acidophilus as well.

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....is what we're doing all this culturing for folks!

I haven't finished reading this yet but for all of you scientists out there (especially "scientist")...

....here ya go!

Registering is free and easy:

Please ignore, even CONDEMN any and all pro-VAX content:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/433151_13

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

http://mercola.com/2004/mar/27/bacteria_gut_cancer.htm


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Anyone worried about this issue...

Quote:

_From Mercola's website_
Having studied 55 products labeled "probiotic," Belgian biologists conclude that in fact, not every product that claims to be "probiotic" actually contains the bacteria associated with this claim. In addition, in many cases the researchers found bacteria other than those named on the label.

"Probiotic" refers to foods that contain certain bacteria, which are said to have beneficial effects on colon flora and the immune system.

The researchers studied the micro-flora of 25 dairy products and 30 powdered products that are used as nutritional supplements. *More than a third of the powdered products contained no living bacteria whatsoever* - unlike the dairy products, which contained up to a billion living microorganisms per milliliter.

*In identifying the bacteria, they found that only thirteen percent of the products contained all bacteria types included on the label.*

*Meanwhile, in one third of all the products, the researchers found other bacteria not listed on the label.*
I use powdered probiotics - the regular Jarrow and also the Baby jarrow for dd and ds. I worry sometimes that it's just powdered snake oil, kwim? Anyone know of any way to test what these powders actually contain?

Anyway, just another plus for "real live" cultured dairy products and fermented foods, instead of probiotic supplements it seems.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by TwinMommy_
*Anyway, just another plus for "real live" cultured dairy products and fermented foods, instead of probiotic supplements it seems.*
I totally agree...I will check my supplements by culturing some yougurt with them just to be sure.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I've been concerned about this too, after hearing many probiotics contain bacteria (bad stuff) not listed on the label since when they grow the bacteria (like we used to do in science class with petrie dishes) you can't 100 percent control what grows in the culture. There are bacteria everywhere and they will reproduce if you give them a favorable environment.

Now I only culture my yogurt with Nancy's organic yogurt as a starter or from my previous batch. I figure this is the most natural way to go.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I culture Jarro, Ethical Nutrients acidophilus and bifidorum, and now, my latest friend, Primadophilus L. Reuteri, so I know they've got living bacteria.

Also, I know that these bacteria are lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium because they culture in milk and produce lactic acid.

The point of these bacteria is that they are antagonistic to "bad" bacteria so that in the culturing process only the good survive.

I do not think that any of the above are snake oil. The problem is that infants should not have dairy, but many desperately need probiotic supplementation.

My son needed probiotic supplementation and until we could give him yogurt he got the powder with his breastmilk--- right when he was nursing.

It would be great if there had been some names named in the linked info-- let the sinners be punished in the marketplace, but....

...as usual it's on the "fear" part that makes it ....not the important info. This isn't like Mercola's usual info... oh well.

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## scientist (Feb 24, 2004)

goodpapa,

good article. slide 15 is excelent! i copied it to my yogurt making file.

thanx


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## EBM (Feb 9, 2004)

.


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## seahorsie (Jul 1, 2003)

hi, has anyone used KAL brand "Dinosaurs Supplements for Kids - Baby Bifidactyl"? I was looking for Baby Jarro, Whole Foods here was out of it and told me to try this. My dd has had nasal congestion now for 3 months - dark circles under her eyes, and it's getting worse each day. (we also just moved to the country) She is still bf-ing - I take "Primal Defense" by Garden of Life, recommended by Dr. Mercola as best probiotic brand. I wasn't sure if I could give Primal Defense to my dd, it is a hard tablet and not suggested for her age. Her diet is mostly dairy free, except for whole milk plain yogurt, sometimes cheeses. I try to give her spelt bread instead of wheat. I am concerned about these allergies at her age. If dd goes on like this, does she run the risk of asthma? Allergies are on both sides of my family. Could this be a food allergy? Something I am eating that is in my breastmilk? Can I reverse dd's allergies with probiotcs? Also, what is the difference beween FOS and HSO's? please help...







:


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## EBM (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by seahorsie_
*I take "Primal Defense" by Garden of Life, recommended by Dr. Mercola as best probiotic brand.*
How do you like Primal Defense and how does it make you feel--better, the same?

Here is info on FOS http://www.natren.com/pages/healthyliving/beware.html

Perhaps one of the knowledgeable on this thread can explain the difference and answer your other questions.

I have been trying to find out more info on the HSO's. On Mercola's website he said the the NCI is funding research on HSOs. He provides a link to NCIs website but not the exact page with info on the research. I am still trying to find it.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

You'll find that opinions vary widely regarding FOS from one manufacturer to the next. For example:
http://www.cfsn.com/natren.html


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## EBM (Feb 9, 2004)

That is a pretty impressive challenge against Natren.

CFS Nutrition argues their case well--they back their statements up with references.

If the things Natren claims are true-it would be nice to see some sources.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Seahorse, allergins can pass into breastmilk. It's complicated to find the source- and probiotics can help with allergies, but sometimes you do need to eliminate foods. Start with the major allergins and see if there's improvement- also with nasal congestion, check for airborne allergins- dust mites, pollen, mold etc.

Good luck.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Goodpapa, others. I was doing a search of Pubmed and found this article about significant issues with the viability of probiotics outside of the gut due to oxygen toxicity (the bacteria being anaerobic, exposure to oxygen over even a relatively short amount of time kills them). Ever hear of this? Thoughts??

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15055922


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## seahorsie (Jul 1, 2003)

After switching to BabyJarro & 2 days of taking it, my dd's poops are just as goodpapa says they should be. Oh, and it turns out that dd has a cold (a rare occurence, so didn't recognize it - esp since she has had hayfever). I'm encouraged.


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## scientist (Feb 24, 2004)

twinmommy, this is good to keep in mind while making yogurt (if you make yogurt). if you stir too vigorously, you will not get great results because of too much oxygen being added to the mix. other than that (unless you have some specific concernes) i don't give it much thought.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by seahorsie_
*After switching to BabyJarro & 2 days of taking it, my dd's poops are just as goodpapa says they should be. Oh, and it turns out that dd has a cold (a rare occurence, so didn't recognize it - esp since she has had hayfever). I'm encouraged.*
OMG!!! I wonder if that's why Meg's poops improved! How exciting! I've just been mixing Jarro into her morning soy milk!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I have definitely noticed firmer poops for ds after starting mixing in baby jarrow (we use 1/2 tsp) with his rice milk. The other big difference was reducing cow's milk and increasing yogurt, kefir, cottage cheese, butter, and other cultured milk products instead. He used to have really runny, fairly frequent, noxious smelling poos.


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## TurboClaudia (Nov 18, 2003)

just bumping this thread up for new readers...

warmly,
claudia


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## late-night nan (Jan 28, 2003)

Thank you so much for this thread and all the great information. My ds has had chronic diarrhea and also eczema for several weeks. I'm excited to try a probiotic regimen starting tomorrow!

Our ped never connected these two conditions, but it does make a lot of sense...


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Bumping up the thread for new members and such.


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## lactationlady (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks so much for bumping this thread! I have just spent over an hour reading all of the info, with more reading to go. I am ready to begin making our own yogurt, but I'm wondering if I should start with goat, rice or almond milk and if it will work as well. My dd is 21mos and has been suffering with horrible excema since about 2-3mos. It has been much worse for the last several months. She currently has very large patches on her legs, arms and tummy. We have been to 2 allergists, 1 derm and our regular pediatrician, tried many "remedies, none of which have helped and now I am learning more about how probiotics may help improve her condition. The reason I am wondering about starting with something other than cows milk is that we are about to start a dairy elim diet and see if that helps. I also want to avoid soy as she had a definite sensitivity to it until about 3 months ago, so I don't want to overload her system on that either. I have always given her probiotics (primarily the powder from regular acidophilus capsules) when she has had to have antibiotics for recurrent ear infections, but I am now starting to be more diligent about giving her a chewable probiotic (acidophilus + bifidus, the label says). I may head back to WF tomorrow for the Baby Jarrow powder though.

Again, thanks for the info, and if anyone has any input on using goat, rice or almond milk to make my own yogurt while dd is on a dairy elimination diet, I would love to hear it.

p.s. dd has almost always had very soft, smelly stools (since starting solids) and I just assumed it was because she eats ALOT of fruit. It would be a great bonus if her stools firm up. Cloth diapers and runny poo can be a bit of a pain.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I say go for the goat first. In my opinion it is easier to ferment than rice or almond. Also the protein is smaller and easier to digest than cow milk.

Glad you found the thread.

I miss Goodpapa!


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## lactationlady (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks! I'll give it a try!


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

The very soft smelly stools is definitly a food related allergy. My dd gets like that is she has soy, it also makes her eczema worse.

Good luck!!


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## mettamama (May 19, 2004)

wow, great thread.

i've been giving ds jarrobaby for about 3 wks (he's 9 wks)--mixing it in with ebm once a day (1/4 t). planned on doing this for a while for all the beneficial reasons...a year or so, but after perusing this thread, wondering what some of you are doing vis-a-vis how long, if/when to mix it with yogurt etc (i'm not a make-your-own-culture momma...wish i were!).

thanks.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Mettamama, I didn't give dd and ds yogurt until they were 7-8 months old. In fact, I didn't give them ANY food until they were 7-8 months old. Not sure yogurt adds much if you're already doing the Jarrow. Jarrow+EBM (or perhaps Jarrow on a finger for awhile) is what we plan to do for #3. FYI... dd and ds have always tolerated organic, all natural, whole milk plain yogurt extremely well. For a while, ds had a dairy "sensitivity" (he'd get loose, frothyish stools from drinking cow's milk) but I never had that problem with yogurt, culturered butter, real cheeses, etc. etc. Now that he's 2, he tolerates cow's milk much better... can have a glass or so, or regular milk in cooking, etc. with no problems, though I still give him calcium+D-fortified organic rice milk (and TONS of yogurt and cheese!) instead of doing too much cow's milk... don't want to rock the boat.

HTH!


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## Merlin (Sep 13, 2004)

Some fun fact for you about fermented milk products:

Quote:

Fermented milk products also have powerful bactericidal properties. _Salmonella typhi_ (the agent for typhoid fever) added to yogurt disappeared within thirty to forty-eight hours. _Shigella_ species, agents for dysentery, disappeared within two hours. Escherichia coli did not develop; _Salmonella paratyphi_ (an agent for recurrent fever and diarrhea) and _Corynebacteriae diphtheria_ lost their ability to cause disease, as did _Neisseria meningitides_ (an agent for meningitis) and _Vibrio comma_ (the agent for cholera). _Dahi_ is a fermented milk product in India that is similar to yogurt. When _E. Coli, Streptococcus,_ and _Straphylococcus_ were added to _dahi_, the organisms soon died off.
Source: Seneca, Harry and others. "Bactericidial properties of yogurt." _American Practitioner and Digest of Treatment_, Dec 1950;1(12)1252-1259.

Actually, I have plenty fun facts about raw milk and fermented milks but due to mothering's rules, I couldn't post any more than 100 words... The problem is that I got these from the journals, oh well.

I bought the kefir grains from G.E.M. Culture since it contains pure kefir grain as well as Dom's kefir. I used Dom's simple method with cold raw milk, it works well for me. In fact, it works far better than kefir starter powder, I used that before I found Dom's site and placed an order thru G.E.M.

However if anyone is still interesting in kefir and milk products, get either books, "The Untold Story of Milk" by Ron Schmid, ND with foreward by Sally Fallon (extremely high recommendation) and "The Milk Book" by William Campbell Doughlass II, MD. These books cover many things about milk & fermented milk products plus messy politic issues that we may/may not aware of. Other third book on milk will be soon release, couldn't wait to get my hands on it.

Cheers!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

How timely...thanks for the new info!

I have a question for all my 'cultured' friends.

When I make youghurt I will make a mother batch and then take a 1/4 cup of that to make 1 quart batches until the 'mother' is gone or its (mother batch) has gone off. Normally is use 3.25% milk (occasionally 2%) for this.

My question is this. The whole foods store where I work had 1/2 and 1/2 creme a day away from expiry so I got 1 quart for about 1$. I made my 'mother batch' from that last night.

It is pretty decadant...the creme rose to the top and it is thick and smooth.

Now I will use 1/4 cup of this to make yougurt for about the next month.

What do you all think? Is this a good option for my 'Mother batch'? Have any of you tried this? Can I use this mother with 1% milk for a lighter youghurt for me?

Thanks!
Nice to see this thread back up!


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Hurray, I tried my first batch of cultured soy milk yesterday! I haven't tasted it yet, but the consistency looks great!

Question: the book I'm using (Super Baby Food) says to pour off the whey to make the yogurt thicker, which makes sense. But my understanding was that the whey contains most of the probiotics so it should always be stirred in...what's up?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I've heard that too - and never pour off the whey on ours (unless I have to use the whey for something, like soaking beans or oatmeal or whatever). My kids hate the super runny yogurt so if there's a ton of whey, I sometimes I add a little gelatin or mashed banana. HTH!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

MM- I don't see a problem with using the heavier one as your starter. It's got the bacteria. It sounds incredible, by the way. Sometimes I put a bit of extra cream in ours and eat the top layer myself.









On the whey -- I usually strain it off and save it for my son to drink. I put it in his cup with a bit of stevia. It's great on days when he's eating very little else.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

I've got extra Kefir grains (orrigionally from somone on Dom's site) If anyone is wanting some......... LMK









HEY... Gale Force- I replied to at least one or more threads you were posting in... with no reply so far....... *ARE YOU PREGNANT TOO!!??*


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks for the reply Gale!

Another question:

So I used the creme starter and I made youghurt from a un-homogenized, low heat pasterized milk I found at the farmers market.

It smells good, tastes fine but has stringy strands of mucous like stuff throughout it and its lumpier than usual. It had ALOT of whey on the top.

Any comments on this...I am not sure how I feel about it.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Thanks for the reply Gale!
It smells good, tastes fine but has stringy strands of mucous like stuff throughout it and its lumpier than usual. It had ALOT of whey on the top.

That doesn't sound good, particularly the whey on top, but I am not sure what to tell you. Well, the mucousy stuff doesn't sound great either. LOL


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
I've got extra Kefir grains (orrigionally from somone on Dom's site) If anyone is wanting some......... LMK









Did the grains I gave you bite the dust? I have given them to some other folks who left them in the fridge for 3 months waiting until they are less busy. Eww. I recommended composting them.

Quote:

*ARE YOU PREGNANT TOO!!??*








Not anymore. I was thinking yesterday about the fact that I still haven't dealt with it. I have been super-busy with work deadlines. From one fire to another since the m/c at 9 wks. (Not a literal fire LOL, I said I was up to my eyeballs in alligators the other day and folks thought I was a Floridian. Since I am in the Sierras and we have been breathing our share of smoke this summer, I should clarify that the house is still standing.)


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks again for the response Gale...I think I will discard this batch.

Sorry to hear of your loss and the fire smoke


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks MM


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Merlin -- I missed your post earlier. Interesting quote and thanks for the book recommendations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Merlin*
I bought the kefir grains from G.E.M. Culture since it contains pure kefir grain as well as Dom's kefir. I used Dom's simple method with cold raw milk, it works well for me. In fact, it works far better than kefir starter powder, I used that before I found Dom's site and placed an order thru G.E.M.

Definitely get the actual grains. I've got about 3 cups even though I have probably given away grains to 10 people in the last month. If anyone wants any, free for shipping, PM me. I'll ship priority outside of Calif ($3.85) and regular mail in Calif (about $1.50). I've been shipping every Monday but we missed the boat today, so it looks like Tues. The GEM grains cost something like $30 I believe. It's totally worth the price, believe me, but you can also just PM me.









Amanda


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

I have read this thread at least three times. I went to my local vitamin shoppe and got the only book they had on probiotics "Probiotics: Nature's Internal Healers" by Natasha Trenev. It was definitely an eye opener!! I was all set to do some research on the types of supplements the book recommended and found that, surprise!, they round-aboutedly (is that a word? LOL) recommend... THEIR OWN PRODUCTS from Natren... that just rubs me the wrong way.. I always find it suspect when I read books like that.

So, I looked around on the net to find a TON of info, most of which is written by the makers of the particular supplements, all of which claim their supplement is the best.... aargh..

Now I feel like I'm back at square one... I would like to get my family on a supplement regimen (I don't think I'm ready or willing to try making enough yogurt/kefir etc. to feed my family.... maybe later, once I get a handle on this whole probiotics thing, but to start, I really just want a supplement) and start as soon as possible (what with winter on the horizon and and cold/flu season, etc.).

Does anyone have any recommendations for supplements?? THe Natren ones look terrific, but OMG they are pricey!! Is there something out there that is as good for less money?? Or, do I just have to cough it up to get the quality and guarantees?

Thank you for educating me about probiotics and for answering my questions









Lo


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

they round-aboutedly (is that a word? LOL) recommend... THEIR OWN PRODUCTS from Natren... that just rubs me the wrong way.. I always find it suspect when I read books like that.
Exactly. That's probably the reason I don't like Body Ecology either. And yes, they are way pricey. I really like the products made By Jarrow Formulas. I think they are good products & reasonably priced.

http://www.jarrow.com/products/BabYsJarroDophilus.htm
http://www.jarrow.com/products/Jarro...sfospowder.htm
http://www.jarrow.com/products/JarroDophilusfos.htm


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I use the Udo Erasmus line of probiotics in my practice and for my family. I like its combinations of different bacterias for different situations. I like its packaging, (dark amber bottles that I reuse for formulations) and that they use cold refridgeration while it is enroute to the retail level.

Here is the website link. www.udoerasmus.com/probiotics

His website seems pretty self promoting unfortunately but I have seen his lecture before and he is very well educated on well spoken on the subject of the human body.

I personally use the Udo' Super Five daily for dd and dh and I as well as the Super Eight to make starter for my youghurt.

The Super Five is $19.99 Can. funds for about 30 chewable tabs.

HTH


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Mountain Mom - can you tell me exactly HOW you go about using the Super 8 as yogurt starter? At what point do you add the contents of the capsule? Just one capsule, or more? Thanks!


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## balrog (Apr 3, 2003)

Do the probiotics survive freezing? My kids love "popsicles" -- yogurt that I freeze in pop-forms.

Do all the probiotics survive in yogurt, or only the lactobacillicus (sp?) ones? If I culture milk with Jarro or PB 8, will I keep all the lovely little buggies?

DS is a very picky eater and I have resorted to mixing the PB 8 into ice cream. Sigh. But if I can culture it and make yogurt-pops...

FYI: DS's stool quality has changed dramatically since (4 days ago) starting the PB 8 powder. He has gone from loose-as-a-goose to firm (not hard, but I'm still a little concerned about constipation). The eczema and nightwaking are not (yet?) affected, but maybe they will improve with time.

Thanks,
Balrog


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
Mountain Mom - can you tell me exactly HOW you go about using the Super 8 as yogurt starter? At what point do you add the contents of the capsule? Just one capsule, or more? Thanks!

My method really came about in a bit of a fluke.

When I first started culturing milk, I would purchase envelopes of probiotic bacteria made by a company called yougertmet.

I was out one day so I opened enough super 8 capsules to equal what I estimated to be the amount in one envelope, about 1 tablespoon.

So my method is this.

1) Heat the milk to 180 degrees. I heat between 150 and 180 depending on the dairy the milk came from.

2) Allow the milk to cool to 110 degrees

3) Get your probiotic ready. (This is to make starter, if you have made your starter already then use 1/4 cup of that per 1 litre of milk to make the next batches)

4) Take a small portion of the cooled milk and mix the starter or already cultured youghurt and mix gently.

5) Add this to the cooled milk. Stir in gently to avoid creating bubbles and more oxygen.

6) Incubate* for 6-12 hours depending on the thickness you want

*you can use a variety of methods... a canning jar set in hot water in a cooler... a canning jar in your oven with the light on and the burners covered...an actual youghert maker, electronic or thermos type...etc.

HTH


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *balrog*
Do the probiotics survive freezing? My kids love "popsicles" -- yogurt that I freeze in pop-forms

Yes, they can survive freezing..I make dd youghurt pops alot.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *balrog*
Do all the probiotics survive in yogurt, or only the lactobacillicus (sp?) ones? If I culture milk with Jarro or PB 8, will I keep all the lovely little buggies?

This is a complicated subject. All can survive, but some cannot survive together. If the combination exsists in a probiotic supplement then it will survive cultured together because they already are cultured to be in the capsules or powder of the supplement KWIM?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *balrog*
FYI: DS's stool quality has changed dramatically since (4 days ago) starting the PB 8 powder. He has gone from loose-as-a-goose to firm (not hard, but I'm still a little concerned about constipation). The eczema and nightwaking are not (yet?) affected, but maybe they will improve with time.

Thanks,
Balrog

To reverse symptoms of digestive disturbance such as eczema, one must be on probiotics for some time as well as making other changes in the diet such as essential fatty acids and low allergen foods that are easier for the child to assimilate and digest.

But over time you will see a big difference for sure. Everyone is so different it will be hard to pinpoint a timeline of this.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
3) Get your probiotic ready. (This is to make starter, if you have made your starter already then use 1/4 cup of that per 1 litre of milk to make the next batches)

4) Take a small portion of the cooled milk and mix the starter or already cultured youghurt and mix gently.

5) Add this to the cooled milk. Stir in gently to avoid creating bubbles and more oxygen.

6) Incubate* for 6-12 hours depending on the thickness you want

I may have to start a thread called "Probiotics for Dummies" because I feel so stupid about all of this...









So, for #3 above, the probiotic stirred into the heated-up milk substitutes for a store-bought yogurt starter? I've been making yogurt in a yogurt maker by heating a quart of milk with 1/2 C of dry milk, adding 1/2 C of Mountain High plain yogurt, stirring, and then incubating the whole mess. It's tasty, but I figure I'm missing out on some good stuff, which is why I want to add (additional?) probiotics.

Sigh...sorry for the elementary questions...


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*

So, for #3 above, the probiotic stirred into the heated-up milk substitutes for a store-bought yogurt starter?


Exactly!

I also will use a 1/4 cup of store bought youghurt (plain whole milk) to stir the probiotic in because it is difficult to completely mix it with milk only without clumps. It seems to mix better with youghurt and then adding that to the heated, yet cooled milk.

HEY, there are no stupid questions by the way. We all started out wondering all the same quesitons as you. Once you understand the variables of culturing then it becomes easier.

Two books to check out are

Nourishing Traditions and Wild Fermentation.

If you google them you will see a content list.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Cool! MM - you're helping so much!

One more question (for now







) - Do you use the probiotics capsules for each batch of yogurt you make, or is it OK to reserve 1/4 - 1/2 C of the yogurt made from the probiotic starter to use as starter for subsequent batches? If it's OK to use the yogurt as starter for subsequent batches, how many future batches would you make before starting a new one with the probiotic capsules? Thanks! (again)


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

the probiotic stirred into the heated-up milk substitutes for a store-bought yogurt starter?
Depending on what's in your probiotic. If yours doesn't have L Bulgaricus & S thermophilus it won't turn out like you expect without also adding yogurt starter.

Quote:

is it OK to reserve 1/4 - 1/2 C of the yogurt made from the probiotic starter to use as starter for subsequent batches? If it's OK to use the yogurt as starter for subsequent batches, how many future batches would you make before starting a new one with the probiotic capsules?
It's okay to do that. Reserve some from new batch A to start batch B. Then reserve some from Batch B to start batch C etc. The longer you store it, the less likely it is to work well for you so you need to make them fairly frequently. I just use the probiotic for each batch though.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

You guys are so cool!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Ditto


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## balrog (Apr 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the helpful info, especially responses to my query.

We have already tried a few thousang thing to reduce the eczema, including eliminating dietary allergens and increasing B vits and Omega acids. Nothing has worked. But now we're trying probiotics, no uncultured dairy, and B vits. Should probably do vit E and Omegas too.

I have to drag out the ol' yogurt-maker and try culturing my PB 8. It's been a while since we made yogurt, but for those folks who have been asking about making it-- the quality of your yogurt depends a LOT on the starter you use. Get a nice tart starter if you want a tarter end product. Also, we found that longer incubating (like, 19 hours) resulted in a tarter, thicker, more flavorful yogurt. I don't see how that would damage the probiotics, but if it would, someone please correct me!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

balrog -- I culture my yogurt for at least 24 hours to reduce the lactose in the end product, so I agree with you


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

ITA as well.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Amanda- Theres nothing wrong with my grains... their perfectly fine. I just have too many AND an wanting to try water kefir now.... kinda burnt out I guess...
BTW I feel like such an







about my last post I believe Amber & I are due about the same time you were







you are in my prayers. PLEASE deal with the loss. It will help you heal for the long haul.







HOPE to see you next month!!! -Love ya

Now back to your regularly scheduled Probiotic Posts.....


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

This may have been answered before, but I can't remember.
Can you freeze the bacteria and they still be alive and well once thawed?
TIA!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

zanelee -- there are probiotics that are freeze dried, but I think I've read that the process kills them or weakens them, so I am guessing no.

And on the totally sideline topic: glad your grains are fine Melissa, I thought you had to order more ffrom someone on Dom's site. I also had no idea that Amber was pregnant. That's great. I am out of touch. I will try to go to the Oct mtg.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, and a sideline funny: my husband tried to mail kefir grains on Monday but needed a priority mail box and so just had the grains in the doubled baggies. The postmaster wouldn't mail them -- he said if they leaked that the postal service workers would freak out. So I'll mail them this Monday.


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## hnybee (Sep 21, 2003)

I totally thought it was okay to freeze your probiotics. That is where I have been keeping mine. Usually they are stored in the fridge at the health food store. I am going to email the PB8 people and see what they say. I will let you all know what I find out.

I'd hate to have to throw out all the probiotics i've been using. we'll see......


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

I know probiotics are good things but everytime I hear their name I can't help wondering when those biotics lost their amateur status......


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penalt*
I know probiotics are good things but everytime I hear their name I can't help wondering when those biotics lost their amateur status......

LOL. I'll never think of them the same way again.

Oh, and I really don't know about the freezing, so I hope no one throws out their stash....


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

In this thread and in the thread "Lets get Cultured" there was a user that was a microbiologist that knew all kinds of information about freezedried probiotics versus live.

I wish I could remember her name. I will try to find the time to look back through.

I think if anyone is worried their probiotics are inert should try to culture a bit to test them before tossing.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

OK this falls under the heading of TMI... but I've got to ask and you all are the only people who might know...

I started taking Dr. Udo Erasmus' probiotics about 5 or 6 days ago. Today I started having the most amazingly obnoxious gas... OMG... it would make your eyes water!!!

Is this a "side effect" (hopefully a positive one?) of taking the probiotics?? I am taking two a day (one in the am and one pm), should I lower or raise the amount I'm taking?? Or will this just resolve on it's own? Or, alternatively, is the gas totally unrelated to the probiotics?

Also, while I have you here.... does anyone here use "Custom Probiotics"?? Their product looks impressive and I called and talked to the owner and he sounded knowledgeable (but, I am a newbie, so I don't really know enough to make that judgment, kwim?) so I thought I'd ask you all if you like them or not www.customprobiotics.com

Thanks a million!

Lo


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey lo,
I have not tried the custom label. But I can tell you that your gas and flatulence is caused by the probiotic. In very non scientific terms what is happening is that there is a turf war happening in your digestive system. The good vs the evil. The good will prevail. Keep taking the probiotic, watching for the quality and consistencey of your bowel movement and regulating your dosage based on that.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

lolov -- definitely stick with it despite the gas.\

On the custom probiotics, it seems like folks here have considered taking them, but I haven't heard a review from anyone who did. The combination of yogurt and kefir have worked really well for me (and hit a lot of bases) to fight candida. Of course, that's been with a candida diet too.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Looks to me like the Custom product is more potent so some people might not tolerate them that well if you're taking a whole capsule. The Udo Erasmus adult product says it contains 12 billion/capsule (which is similar to the 12 billion/ 1/4 t green label JarroDophilus though the species content is a little different) & the Custom site says "25 billion per capsule guaranteed at date of expiry...Our latest independent laboratory test results indicate 66 billion total bacterial count per capsule. " And I'd NEVER pay $40/bottle either.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Thanks everyone for your input!!! I was beginning to feel like I was about to explode or something because... OMG... I smell like sewer!! That just tells me that my innards are YUCK!!! I am assuming that this is a positive sign that the probiotics are working









Amnesiac... ??? I'm confused... you said the custom probiotics looked like they were pretty potent, but you'd "never spend $40 a bottle"... I was thinking of buying the powder... it's $90 for 50g (for my whole family... adults use a large scoop and kids use a small scoop... both provided) which I thought was more cost effective than buying capsules. The Udo Erasmus caps I have are $16 per bottle of 30 caps @ 15 billion guaranteed at "best by" date. Since the custom probiotics was guaranteed and independently tested at 60+ billion, I just assumed it was better (see, I'm a newbie... more = better... LOL) Should I hold off or is there a better/less expensive product out there?

BTW, I got my husband to take these probiotic caps three times a day. He's had persistent heartburn, IBD/IBS etc. for YEARS and I'm banking on this regimen (once we get the dosage right) to get him off all of the stupid meds he's been taking (there's $200 a month). I will keep you all updated... I'm just so excited that he agreed to take these!!! He's already noticed that he's, uh, "stinkier" than usual, so I'm hoping that's a good sign of things to come!

Thanks to everyone again! I never would have learned about probiotics if it weren't for you all here!

Lo


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

The Udo product is $16/30 doses. The green label Jarrow I use is $13/70 doses (1 dose=1 gram=1/4 t). They contain about the same # of organisms/dose but the species are a little different. Of course, I grow mine up in yogurt so I'm not really dosing us out of the bottle every day & it goes farther.

I didn't look at the Custom powder pricing before, just the capsules. I just would never pay $40 for something that potent that I had no idea if I'd like or tolerate. Just realize that your experience with the gassiness etc will be magnified if you suddenly double/triple your dose & you may or may not tolerate it. I don't know how much their large/small scoops are so I have no idea what volume/organism count they are using per dose for the powders but they must be super tiny scoops.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

where have you all found your Jarrow for $13/70 doses???

I was getting a freeze dried variety at Trader Joes, and I know its probably not Near as good... but it was 7.00 for 30 caps. & better than nothing... well now Im out & I want to try the Jarrow


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

My little health food store carries it. Their prices are usually lower than say Whole Foods so it may be a little higher elsewhere. They make a few different products & this is the one I get because it's the highest potency & since it's not in capsules it's easy to make yogurt with:
http://www.jarrow.com/products/Jarro...sfospowder.htm


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Amnesiac: Thanks for clarifying!!! It's so hard to know what someone means when you aren't "talking" in person, kwim?

I think I'm going to try the custom probiotics powder and start with the
"baby" scoop for my dh and I and just about half a baby scoop for the kids.

Do you know if the probiotics go through to the breast milk?? I wonder because since I've been taking the probiotics, my ds's bm's have been very soft and very stinky... tho, he's teething as well, so maybe that has something to do with it????

Thanks again for your input... I will let you know how I tolerate the CP powder


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## balrog (Apr 3, 2003)

Yes, it seems clear (based on good studies (double-blind placebo-controlled)) that probiotics go thru in the breastmilk. In (at least) one such study, young infants (under 6 mos) got benefits from probiotics regardless of whether they or their mothers were taking the probiotic.

Doing a search on "lactobacillicus" (sp?) and "eczema" my MIL found 4 articles in the Cochran Library (archive of good research, esp for perinatal stuff), all 4 of which found a positive effect of probiotics for infants (reduction of cases of eczema & allergies, plus other possible benefits (asthma). These positive effects occurred in infants whose mothers were taking the probiotic equally to the good effects in infants who were themselves being given the probiotic. (All or virtually all of the babies in the study were breastfed.)


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## ComaWhite (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:

It smells good, tastes fine but has stringy strands of mucous like stuff throughout it and its lumpier than usual. It had ALOT of whey on the top.
This happens to me if I use a goats milk starter in cows milk or vice versa.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *balrog*
Yes, it seems clear (based on good studies (double-blind placebo-controlled)) that probiotics go thru in the breastmilk. In (at least) one such study, young infants (under 6 mos) got benefits from probiotics regardless of whether they or their mothers were taking the probiotic.

The Lactobacillus GG studies were sponsored by Culturelle:
www.culturelle.com and are posted along with other food allergy information in their Research section.

It is a very potent probiotic strain, but expensive. $18 per 30 capsules of 10 billion. I will say once our naturopath started DS on this his poops got firm within a day or 2 and he had already been on Baby Jarrowdophilus for a month. I have no doubt it contributed to his improvement.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

First of all, this is an awesome thread.







I have learned so much! Right now I am trying to make some yogurt in the crockpot (making yogurt without a yogurt maker), but am looking at buying a yogurt maker on-line. My question is this: If I want to add some sweetener, do I add it before I begin culturing it or after it's already turned into yogurt? I was thinking of making some vanilla yogurt with a little sweetener (sugar?) and a little vanilla extract but didn't know when to put it in. Also, does 2% milk work? That's what I'm trying today. And, I have some baby/children's probiotic powder that is strawberry flavored ... has anyone used a flavored probiotic to make yogurt? Does it come out good? And, what machine should I get? I'm looking for ease of use and also money ... hoping to keep it under $50 (I'd love it that included shipping). Thanks!


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## Lexymama (Mar 14, 2004)

I have some probiotic powder that my dd asked me to taste last week. After she tasted it she asked for a bowl of it to eat, so I gave her a few tablespoons in a bowl and she loved it! She kept asking for more, so I gave her a couple of more tablespoons. Anyway, now she wants to eat it everday like a treat. How much is too much?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
My question is this: If I want to add some sweetener, do I add it before I begin culturing it or after it's already turned into yogurt? I was thinking of making some vanilla yogurt with a little sweetener (sugar?) and a little vanilla extract but didn't know when to put it in. Also, does 2% milk work?









I can answer a few of your questions.

The firmest and most successful youghurt comes from milk with fat. So 2% is fair but whole is better.

I would avoid sugar all together as it will most definately interfere with the ability of the body to absorb all the nutrients in the youghurt and it interferes with the purpose of probiotics which is to increase the flora of the digestive system. Sugar increases negative bacteria in the d.s. so sugar and probiotics in my opinion do not mix.

If you need a sweeter taste then add a drop or two of stevia extract to the finished product. Or simply add puried fruit when serving such as blueberries or apples to help flavour it.

This way you can use your plain unflavoured yougurt for other dishes that are more savoury in flavour such as greens and quinoa with youghurt dressing.

HTH


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lexymama*
I have some probiotic powder that my dd asked me to taste last week. After she tasted it she asked for a bowl of it to eat, so I gave her a few tablespoons in a bowl and she loved it! She kept asking for more, so I gave her a couple of more tablespoons. Anyway, now she wants to eat it everday like a treat. How much is too much?

I think the answer to that would be how your dd's bowel movements have been.

Too much probiotic at once can cause very loose stool with tummy upset.

Everyone is different. It also depends on the probiotic powder itself. How many millions of bacteria are present and how many strains.

Watch her poop for signs of overuse.


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## Lexymama (Mar 14, 2004)

Thanks mountain mom!


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks Mountain Mom! Okay, my next question ... my yogurt still isn't setting ... it's quite runny and has been "cooking" for over 4 hours. Does this mean the probiotics I used are bad or not living any more? Is there something else that I did wrong? Thanks again


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

The longer you incubate your youghurt the firmer it becomes. Sometimes I incubate as long as 15 hours. The key is to test a portion of your probiotic for viability by culturing a small amount (like 1/4 cup of milk) to be sure its active. Another pointer is to make sure your incuation temperature stays consistent.

HTH


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
The Lactobacillus GG studies were sponsored by Culturelle:
www.culturelle.com and are posted along with other food allergy information in their Research section.

When I went on a severe elimination diet while breastfeeding Meg (has eczema), I saw a nutritionist and this is the brand he recommended. He also told me Houston Buyers' Club has some of the best prices for it.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Question: I made yogurt from soy milk with a cultured soy ("soy yogurt") starter. I added some "Dairi Free", which is the non-dairy equivalent of powdered milk. I used my electric skillet with water in it to hold the container while it cultured. It turned out pretty well, with one exception: it molded two days after I made it. I thought I was being careful about sterility. A friend suggested maybe my starter should come from a brand new container and not one that has been open for several days?


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## G-Dawg (Oct 9, 2002)

I am ready! How many Jarro capsules should I add to a quart of milk? It is better to mix that into yougurt, then the milk? Does it make a difference if it is homemade soy milk or cows milk? I am pretty sure this was already covered, but I have been reading this thread over a few days and now I can't find it.
Thanks!
G


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lexymama*
I have some probiotic powder that my dd asked me to taste last week. After she tasted it she asked for a bowl of it to eat, so I gave her a few tablespoons in a bowl and she loved it!

Speaking of taste... DS used to take Baby Jarrow off the spoon. It tasted very sweet. Now they have changed formulations and the taste has changed. It doesn't taste bad, just not sweet and different. ;(


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## kaismom (Aug 20, 2002)

Thank you all so much for this thread. My dd seems to have some immune system challenges from reflux as a newborn to constipation to our latest an ear infection (the first ever in this family)







Dh wants to give them the prescribed antibiotics so I thought I'd google for an infant probiotic but stopped here at MDC for a quick search first. Man I love this place. I had always thought probiotics were a treatment not a preventative I just ordered some jarrow for all of us hope it gets here soon.

Mylittlewonders: did the crockpot work? I tried culturing almond milk in my oven a year ago and failed miserably.

thanks again


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Bumping this back to the front page









Also, for anyone in Southern California, Henry's Marketplace (owned by Whole Foods) has Jarrow products on sale this week for 25% off! Can I buy a bunch and just keep it in the fridge or freezer for a while (I'm thinking like a three month supply) or will it go "bad"???

Thanks!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolov*
Can I buy a bunch and just keep it in the fridge or freezer for a while (I'm thinking like a three month supply) or will it go "bad"???

Thanks!

Yes of course, keep in frig. . . the latest batch I bought has an expiry date of 2006


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## whoziwhatsit (Oct 18, 2004)

Ms. Doula....I would love to get some kefir grains from you if you still have extra. A friend of mine just got a cow so I have more raw milk than I know what to do with. Also my midwife would like some as well if you have enough for two. If not, that's ok...I'll keep looking. I'm new to all of this but very excited to get started.







Thanks


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

this may be a silly question...

but will giving my breastfed toddler a probiotic supplement mess with the good intestinal flora that breastmilk is supposed to give her? she does eat a little bit of solids, but still nurses for most of her nutrition. i don't want the probiotic to change the way her gut is "supposed" to be...although i suppose if she is eating solids, that is already altered anyways, right? (okay i may have answered my own question here...







)

i got her the Udo's Choice Infant Blend Probiotic...does anyone else use this? it's the only infant one my health food store carries. http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/p...cs_infants.htm

she had/has reflux, and gets sick alot, ear infections, etc. hoping this will help! thanks for all this great information.


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Hi everyone









I am so glad to see this thread is still going strong







It really changed my family's life for the better. I am newly pregnant and have some questions pertaining to probiotics and the birth canal.

With my last pregnancy I had 2 yeast infections, and then towards the end my midwife told me I had an imbalance in the bacteria in my birth canal. Depsite our attempts to treat it naturally the infection (or overabundance of bad bacteria) irritated my uterus leading to incredibly painful contractions for twenty four hours. I thought I was in labor, however the contractions were not opening the cervix. I ended up in the emergency room (sent by my midwife who was very concerned when she checked my cervix and I began gushing blood) and had to have an ultra sound plus several hours of monitoring - all of which I would not have other wise had - and the threat of a c - section loomed large... anyhow, this all passed, I took Flagyl, and went on to have a completely natural bith to a very healthy babe.

This time around I want to avoid all of this. I am 5 weeks along and have allready had a yeast infection though







I drink lots of kefir and eat yogurt regularly. I avoid sugar and almost all refined foods. i have a very balanced whole foods diet (though pizza is my downfall, which is why i said i avoid almost all refined foods







)

I am wondering if I should also take a probiotic supplement? The jarro stuff I hear so many of you talking about :LOL Will this help keep my birth canal nice and healthy?

Any other ideas would be so very appreciated


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..I wish I could dig out the various posts I've got somewhere that have all the details of my wife's pregnancies but we'll go with the salient points.

We'd had two miscarriages, numerous bouts of bacterial vaginosis, high-powered antibiotics and the docs couldn't do a damned thing.

I did the research, we got off the antibiotic and hormone meats, and started yogurt douches ( I wasn't culturing then.)

It was primitive at the point--- just Ethical Nutrients Acidophilus and Bifidorum powder in a Stonyfield organic plain yogurt. I took the applicator they gave us with the antibiotics and filled the tube with yogurt cream and with my wife sitting in bed at bedtime gave her the entire tube to put in.

At a subsequent visit at the obgyn the doc, using a speculum could actually see those lil' bacteria setting up shop.

Throughout the pregnancy my wife would request and receive regular yogurt douches. She could simply feel when they were necessary. I don't why but the best mix seems to be the yogurt with 3 or 4 powder caps in there. I'd go with adult Jarro now as the bacterial mix has that L.rhamnosus that is especially good for the "lady parts".

You might also eat as many yogurts as possible. My 2.75 year old son has raised the bar around here and his most recent daily record is 5 6oz jars. He's 38 lbs. He just goes into the fridge to get them. One culture is Ethical nutrients the other is the Jarro. Bananas have great nutrients for the bacteria.

I'd also recommend dropping the kefir and culturing probiotic powder as a yogurt rather than eating store-bought yogurt.
From the research I've seen countering the claims from kefir websites, probiotic bacteria and NOT kefir bacteria are native and synergistic to the human GI tract. The strains in high grade probiotics are actually derived from bacteria taken from humans.

Let the hulla-balloo begin!

Good luck,

Ray

PS Thanks to all for the excellent care of my "baby" (the thread of course)


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...you're question is not at all silly. It points to an essential failing in our "cultural" heritage.

In giving birth women can only give as good friendly flora as they have. In the cases of C-sections such as my wife's the powerful antibiotics needed for the surgery severely compromise the bacterial flora in the mother.

Where does the child's come from then??

Antibiotics and hormones in the conventional meat supply, antibiotic medicines, our modern diet (devoid of cultured foods and the fibers that enhance their lives) decimate our bacterial populations.

Remember, the bacteria were here first, we evolved in a biosystem where their functions are essential to all "higher" life-- let's say mammalian in this case. (I'm just trying to give a sense of their primacy NOT ours.)

When we got back from the hospital--- day 3 of my son's life-- I took the probiotic powder on my finger and pressed it into his mouth while he nursed. Meanwhile, I cultured yogurts for my wife to recolonize her healing body. I would say that any infectious complications after C-sections are the result of women not replenishing their flora at a time when they are most vulnerable--- when they're trying to heal.

Let me know how everything goes. Don't be afraid to be aggressive with the powder. If she's had any eczema and is possible allergic to dairy, go with powder for yourself. If not, you might think of culturing the powder as a yogurt.

Good luck,

Ray


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *punkprincessmama*
I drink lots of kefir and eat yogurt regularly. I avoid sugar and almost all refined foods.

Punkprincessmama -- is your yogurt and kefir homemade? If not, that is critical. The commercial stuff simply does not have the amount of bacteria that you need. You can also let your own yogurt culture longer (24 hours or more) and let your kefir sit longer (2 days or so) and you will have a lower lactose product which will not feed the bacteria.

You also should introduce antifunglas into your regimen. Grapefruitseed extract is a popular one and very strong -- be careful. Oil of oregano is apparently very good, though I have yet to try it. Ideally you would rotate two or three antifungal products every 3 days or so.

And welcome back, Ray. I disagree with your kefir assessment. From my own experience, kefir has made the difference for me in beating my yeast problem. I think both kefir and yogurt are critical.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rareimer*
she had/has reflux, and gets sick alot, ear infections, etc. hoping this will help! thanks for all this great information.

rareimer -- it sounds like she really needs probiotics, so I would definitely start her on it. Most of our little ones are compromised in that department even when they are exclusively breastfed (of course formula fed too), because our own systems are compromised.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

For anything fungal based, candida based...Lemongrass essential oil is profoundly effective at lowering the bad bacteria and increasing the good.


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

wow, thanks for all the help everyone. It is very much appreciated. Goodpapa, you timing is great, I was thinking I had read something about your wife and yogurt douches, but wasn't sure of the "potion" exactly.

We had gotten out of the habit of making our own yogurt in the last two months, but you are all right, that is the way to go, so we will make another batch this week. As for the kefir, we were culturing our own, but could never get used to the taste - any ideas there?

I will definetley let the yogurt sit longer, dh and I both have a lactose intolerance.

Okay, I had no idea about antifungals. So far, Grapefruitseed extract, Oil of oregano, and Lemongrass essential oil have all been suggested. How do I use these? Do I add them to the yogurt? I just have no idea, please excuse the ignorance, but hey we are all here to learn, right?

Oh, and we have been buying only organic meet since January.


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Okay one more question! Pertaining to what you said, Ray, about giving your son probiotics on your finger at three days old. If a woman has a natural vaginal birth, and her birth canal is healthy, due to good eating habits, supplements, yogurt douches, etc. this wouldn't be necessary at that point, right? The child would have great bacteria in their system from the trip down the birth canal, correct?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi, PPM, in regards to the lemongrass essentail oil. Dilute the oil to a concentration of 2% in a carrier oil such as grapeseed. Soak an organic tampon and insert overnight. Also rub the diluted oil on your belly region daily.

In regards to the oregano oil. This you take internally as long as you are using the oil of oregano that is already diluted. If it is oregano essential oil then you will have to dilute to a concentration of about 10% in a carrier such as olive for internal consumption. 5 drops maximum daily. It is very strong stuff, get ready for quite a taste.

Grapefruit seed extract is a supplement, usually either in tincture form or in capsulated form thus you take a daily dose internally.

I think all children/infants no matter how they are born can benefit from extra probiotics. I look at it this way. The viruses and bacteria that are around now are mutated to the 100th degree due to overuse of antibiotics. I think to give our kids a fighting chance against these monster bugs we need to create a ironclad immune system which is directly related to the health of the flora of the intestinal tract.

One last thing...I make an essential oil blend call Cand-aide for thrush and yeast situations. I can share that recipe with you punk mama if you want. Let me know.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

thanks for the advice!

i never thought about that, but yes i did have a c-section, so that probably compromised her immune system somewhat. she does not have excema, and i don't *think* she has a dairy allergy, though i have always wondered if she is sensitive to it or not, hence the reflux. i have never seen much of a difference when i have tried going dairy-free.

i have started giving her the probiotic once a day, and i myself take one three times a day. should i give her more often than once a day?


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...is what is "necessary" and what is "optimal?"

I always go for optimal.

The science hasn't been done and probably never will be inasmuch as Modern Medical powers currently put all of their efforts into something as primitive and toxic as vaccination.

Actually the culturing of an infant is at least two part. The vaginal passage and, I think more importantly, the breastfeeding. Of course at a time before refrigeration in a healthy culture, cultured and fermented foods would have been a part of the daily diet. These foods would be loaded with ideal phytonutrients and fibers to fuel our human bodies and the flora within.

Our human history is as well fully linked to animal husbandry, so imagine a diet of daily, fresh, unpasteurized, unhomogenized milk, warm and loaded with beneficial flora, anti-yeast and anti-bad-bacterial compounds.

Our civilization is so far from this ideal state right now--there's no such thing as "natural" anywhere-- that I wouldn't bet on anyone's "great bacteria." Remember also, pregnancy mandates that the woman's immune system be compromised. It's necessary for the survival of the fetus.

I'm not being negative here, just realistic. The proof of what I've tried to do with my son's health is contantly evident.
Last thanksgiving he got the flu from my father when he visited and beat it overnight with a fever-- that was it.

You've probably read about his easy case of measles.

He plays alot with other kids and is very "huggy", so he is in continual contact with a full array of germs and viruses. Most of the children are in playgrounds so we have NO idea about what contagiousness they may or may not have. He gets fevers and coughs now and then, but nothing lasts for more than two days. Of course the final test will be when he stops breastfeeding but I think the greatest impact of that will be beneficial to my wife's overall health, and not detrimental to his.

I even think he may have had an almost completely asymptomic case of chickenpox. They looked like pox, but there were only four and they disappeared before even having a chance to crust over. Nonetheless, we are looking for a verifiable case to expose him to.

I'm taking the long winded route here since I'm wondering why you even asked the question about supplemental probiotics, assuming-- perhaps incorrectly-- that you are nervous about the prospect. I think my son's flora now is definitely stronger because of what we started on the 3rd day of his life. Neither my wife nor I were breastfed as infants. We discovered this healthy nutritional path relatively late in life, and, specifically in her case, we can't possibly know how the poor nutrition and toxic environmental loads of her early years-- while her body was developing--might limit her ability to pass on good health to our son.

Hi Amanda. I only opt for a probiotic yogurt instead of kefir for punkprincessmama,, at this point on the basis of this info from page one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

If she's going to culture, getting L. rhamnosus and L. fermentum into her body can most clearly help her situation.

http://jarrow.com/products/JarroDophilusfos.htm

l. rhamnonus is 20% of the mix. In fact, punkprincess, I would use the jarrow as a yogurt base for the douche and empty 2-3 jarrow caps into it for good measure. For some reason, probably because it thickens it, the yogurt with extra powder seems to work better.

I did some searching and found a source of l. fermentum:

http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/produc...s/probio.shtml

Hi, mountain mom, I didn't miss your offer of recipes for fermenting. I've got the time, the crawl space should be the perfect temp right now, and I'm re-reading Sandor Katz's Wild Fermentation. Sauerkraut and beets are at the top of my list.

Ray


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Ray -- ITA that yogurt is important. I am recommending both yogurt and kefir.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Yet another question for you probiotic gurus









I was at the Vitamin Shoppe yesterday and saw they had a section of probiotic products that are shelf stable. Jarrow has a product there as well as one called "PB8" and then an assortment of other brands including the Vitamin Shoppe's own. I asked the woman who worked there what they do to the bacteria to make it shelf stable and she gave me the deer in the headlights look LOL... big surprise. So, I thought I'd ask all of you. It would be nice to have a shelf stable variety for when we travel. It seemed to be the same price ranges as the refrigerated ones, so it's apparently not cheaper for them to produce...

So, what gives??

Also... how do I know when I (and my kids and dh) are taking "enough" probiotics?? I had a nasty case of mono last week which lasted for about four and a half days and I now feel fine (my recovery was quick and sudden... which is odd for me based on past experience) without taking any antibiotics or anything other than ibuprofen for the pain. I'm wondering if I'm still not taking enough pb's or if I am and the mono would have been much worse if I hadn't been taking them... I am taking two 1/2 tsp doses of the jarro (green label) one in the am and one pm. My dh is taking 1/2 tsp 3x a day and my kids are taking the yellow label jarrow capsules (I dump them in yogurt) one full capsule a day (3.4 billion).

Any advice on whether or not I should up our dosages?? Oh, an FYI, I'm pretty sure that DH has a persistent case of systemic candida... he's constantly got jock itch and athletes foot and his digestive system is a mess (always has been), so I'm assuming it takes a loooooonnnnggg time to clear it up. Is there anything special I should be doing for him other than pb's??

Thank you so much! This thread ROCKS!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

The shelf stable Jarrow (EPS I think?) has some sort of enteric coating made out of hard to pronounce junk plus each capsule is blister wrapped to protect from air & moisture. It does say on the label that the fridge is preferable though.

Actually I take my other Jarrow along in my carry-on bag when I travel. I'm usually only gone 5-7 days & it's fine for that long.

You can increase your dosage as tolerated, but that's a pretty decent amount. In addition to the pb's for your dh, you might think about a nice multi-mineral, or at least some zinc & selenium. Some people have good luck using GSE with yeast but I know for sure my dh would never take it, he's so hard headed.


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Thank you very much everyone for the responses and the time you took to write them. i have copied and pasted them into an email and asked DH to print them out for me at work(our printer is not working)

Goodpapa, I asked the question out of sheer curiosity. I don't doubt the awesome power of probiotics, just wondering about the benefits of supplementing a child from birth who is breastfed and had a vaginal birth. From your post and mountain moms I now understand that even if you do everything "right" a young babe can still benefit from extra help in the probiotic department.

I am so glad I posted my questions here, and that you all took the time to help me.

Mountain Mom, I would love to know more about your essential oil blend for yeast and thrush situations. Thank you kindly for your offer to share


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

Good to see you back, Goodpapa. I had worried we lost our local raging lactavist!








I have a question that I hope you guys won't mind giving me your opinion on.
Sorry if it's tmi....here goes.
I have been told I have bacterial vaginosis, and I know that I have constant yeast problems. I am due to give birth again this coming January, and want my body to be the best it can for my babe to pass through. What would ya'll recommend I do as far as probiotics? I also have a 2 1/2 ds who I believe also has yeast issues which are my fault, I'm sure.








Admittedly, I am a sugar-holic. No doubt due to the yeasty beasties telling me how badly I need refined sugar.







:
Anyway-any help will be GREATLY appreciated!
TIA-


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

wondering...is there any way that giving my daughter a probiotic supplement would cause an upset stomach? she has had two very spontaneous, totally unexpected throw-ups since she's been on it. she is pretty prone to throwing up for various reasons, but these were without warning, hours after she'd eaten, and the only thing i can think of that has changed has been the probiotic. part of the reason i have her on it is that i'm hoping this will help her reflux, not make it worse!









(fyi, she is taking the Udo's Choice Infant Probiotic, 1/2 teaspoon once a day.)


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zanelee*
Admittedly, I am a sugar-holic.

Good stuff for sugar-holics.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *punkprincessmama*
Mountain Mom, I would love to know more about your essential oil blend for yeast and thrush situations. Thank you kindly for your offer to share









Hi there,
Here is the recipe. If you have any questions just ask. Make sure to follow dilution percentages closely.

This is an essential oil blend that is excellent at healing vagintosis, yeast infections etc. This is for adults only. Take one drop internally daily and dilute to a concentration of 3% essential oils in a carrier oil to soak a tampon in and insert overnight. Also rub the diluted form on your belly and massage. Make sure the E.O.'s are distilled from organic herb matter.
Tea Tree 2 parts
Cinnamon LEAF (not BARK) 1 part
Oregano 2 parts
Peppermint 1 part

This following recipe is for active thrush in babes and kids. Take one drop and swish into the babes mouth and on the nursing Mom's nipples.

In this recipe I am asking you to take drops of oils. A drop of an essential oil comes from a graduate dropper. Turn the bottle upside down and let the drop fall on its own with no help from you (ie tapping the bottle)

Blend into a 12 ml bottle. The total drops into the bottle will be 22 drops which constitutes just under 1 ml.

Again source essentail oils distilled from organic plant matter for this.

Niaoulli 3 drops
Lavender 3 drops
Lemongrass 6 drops
Marjoram 3 drops
Pepperming 3 drops
Rosemary 3 drops
Cinnamon Leaf 2 drops

Top the bottle up with a carrier oil such as grapeseed or jojoba.

HTH, good luck.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodpapa*
Hi, mountain mom, I didn't miss your offer of recipes for fermenting. I've got the time, the crawl space should be the perfect temp right now, and I'm re-reading Sandor Katz's Wild Fermentation. Sauerkraut and beets are at the top of my listRay

HI Ray,
My recipe is pretty simple.

Take beets (any variety, this year I used Chiogga!), turnip, carrot and ginger. Shred to a consistency that feels good to you. I should add that I use the same amount of beet and turnip, and a quarter of the amount of carrot and 1/8 of that of ginger.

Once you have shredded sprinkle celtic sea salt over the veg and mix it up in your crock or jar. You can add caraway seeds too.

Then follow Sandor's instructions from there in.

I am going to make Amasake from Amaranth. Any one tried this?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rareimer*
wondering...is there any way that giving my daughter a probiotic supplement would cause an upset stomach? she has had two very spontaneous, totally unexpected throw-ups since she's been on it. she is pretty prone to throwing up for various reasons, but these were without warning, hours after she'd eaten, and the only thing i can think of that has changed has been the probiotic. part of the reason i have her on it is that i'm hoping this will help her reflux, not make it worse!









(fyi, she is taking the Udo's Choice Infant Probiotic, 1/2 teaspoon once a day.)

Sometime probiotics can cleanse out whatever is ailing the digestive system. In children they tend to release toxins quickly!

I wanted to add too, that there is virus running around here (close to you) that presents very much like what you describe.

If she complains of tummy upset, lower her dosage, since the probiotic issues a turf war of sorts at the beginning causing gas and bloating sometimes.

HTH


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Well, I think I have finally gotten the hang of making yogurt. The crock pot didn't work out too well, but I don't think it was the crock pot's error.







For some reason I didn't put any water in the crock; I just set my container of yogurt in there ...







Needless to say, I kind of cooked the container. But, I've been using a big pan I have that has a pretty good sized domed lid ... I put my yogurt mix (milk and probiotic powder) into mason jars (little 8oz ones) and then fill the pan up with hot tap water. I put a thermometer in there to keep a check of things and every now and then put the stove on really low to heat the water again. If it's bedtime and it's not done yet, I refill with hot water and put it all in the oven (with it off) to let it culture over night.

Then, I put some yogurt in a bowl, add some wheatgerm and honey and YUMMY!!! Ds#1 still thinks it's not good ... hopefully I'll find a flavor combo he'll like (like puree'd strawberries or peaches). Oh, and I also blend it with some OJ and a banana and honey for a really tasty smoothy. I think next I want to buy some Really Raw Honey and use that instead of the store bought stuff ... even more nutritional stuff in there.









I'm hoping that between increasing our intake of probiotics and eliminating straight milk (for drinking) as well as ice cream/pudding we can get control of our allergies and ds#2's reflux issues.


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## lactationlady (Feb 16, 2004)

I found this and would love to hear what others think...

Thought you may find this article of interest:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/329/7465/548

To avoid developing vulvovaginal candidiasis after antibiotic use, many women use complementary and alternative therapies, including lactobacillus in various forms (e.g., oral capsules, vaginal suppositories, yogurt). In this Australian study, 278 women (age range, 18-50) with nongynecologic
infections were randomized to receive one of four regimens during 6 days of antibiotic use and 4 days thereafter: an oral lactobacillus-containing powder (one-half teaspoon twice daily) and a lactobacillus-containing vaginal suppository (once daily at bedtime); oral lactobacillus and vaginal placebo; vaginal lactobacillus and oral placebo; or double placebo.

Women completed symptom surveys and provided self-collected vaginal-swab specimens at baseline and either 4 days after completing their randomized treatment or when symptoms developed. Cases were defined as women with
symptoms plus candida isolated from the follow-up swab; asymptomatic women with positive cultures were not considered cases.

The trial was terminated when enrollment was 62% complete because interim analysis showed no evidence of treatment benefit. Of the 235 women with complete outcome data (85% of those randomized), 55 developed symptomatic
vaginal candidiasis. The incidence was 24% with oral and vaginal lactobacillus, 24% with oral lactobacillus and vaginal placebo, 29% with vaginal lactobacillus and oral placebo, and 17% with double placebo. The resulting odds ratios for developing candidiasis were 1.06 for oral lactobacillus and 1.38 for vaginal lactobacillus (both ORs were nonsignificant).

Comment: Despite conventional wisdom encouraging women to use lactobacillus preparations to prevent yeast infections after antibiotic use, this small but well-designed study demonstrated no benefit from this practice. In fact, the findings suggest the potential for harm. Based on this study,
clinicians should discourage patients from using these products to prevent post-antibiotic yeast infections.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lactationlady*
I found this and would love to hear what others think...

Thought you may find this article of interest:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/329/7465/548

I think the study was poorly designed and operated on principles not yet established as fact: such as why did they only take the supplements for 10 days. I have seen studies on L. reuteri concluding that it takes 21 days to colonize.

It did lead me to this interesting page:
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/Sept012.htm


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

ITA that the study was poorly designed. During the six days of the antibiotics, the antibiotics were killing everything, including the supplement. So bascially these gals got supplemented for 4 days.


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

mountain mom, thank you again for your help


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

No prob ppm my pleasure!!!


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

ANother question...

I find that the easiest way to get my boys their probiotics is to put it into their soymilk once a day. I just empty a capsule of jarrow (the 3.4 billion ones LOL) into the cup and shake it all up with the soy milk. My question is, can I just put the probiotics into the container of soymilk (figuring out how much per oz to get the correct dose of course) instead of in individual cups?? We usually go through a half gallon every two and a half days or so.

Is there any problem doing it this way?? Please advise









Thank you!


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

bumping back to the front page


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I don't see why that would be a problem.


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## artisticat (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi everyone. Great Thread. I am just getting into cultured milk like kefir and yogurt. Next I want to start fermenting!! Just wanted to know if anyone can help me with this. My neice is 17 months old and allergic to soy and dairy. Which means it is very hard to feed her!! My sister isn't really into anything like this as she "thinks" she is too busy and doesn't have the money and so on. I am just wondering what kind of probiotics or cultured foods to feed her. Just start her on the Jarro capsules? The allergist tells my sister to not give her any milk or soy products so I don't know if she will go for cultered milk. She uses rice milk right now so maybe I could culture that? Let mw know what you think. I'd appreciate the help.

All the info here is great! I came looking for one thing and found a lot more. Thanks.


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## summerblu (Feb 4, 2004)

I'm a little confused really. I want to make the probiotics yogurt for my 7 mo. old, but... the recipe i saw in this thread calls for milk. I thought that under a year old, babies cannot drink cow's milk. Am I missing something? Or, should I just be spoon feeding the baby jarro to my DC?

Also, if the milk recipe is apporpriate for my babe...is it also appropriate for an adult? Should there be a different recipe for each of us.

One more question, I've seen recipes but they are just boil milk and cool to 100 degrees and let sit overnight. When do I add the probiotics? Don't I need something to thicken the milk to form yogurt? Is there anything else I should be adding to boost my child's and my immune system?

As you can tell, I am very new at this. Any help is appreciated greatly.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...of those friendly flora!

First off, what you need for the wee one is this:

http://jarrow.com/products/BabYsJarroDophilus.htm

The PERFECT combo for a 7 month old is breastmilk and the powder. Just wet your finger when nursing and put some powder on it, gently get into your child's mouth. There's NO BETTER food for the flora than breastmilk.

For yourself, culture the powder, I wouldn't worry about getting the adult verision of Jarrow unless you want to. No thickener required, just sterilize the milk at 185 degrees, add your powder (about 6 caps per 6 oz) at 115 degrees and culture. I would advise making a small starter amount and then using that to make larger amounts. 3 oz probiotic yogurt can make 48 oz (or more).

Here's more info than you need.

http://www.donvier.com/donvier/produ...tructions.html

BTW, those instructions mentioning skim milk (above) are dead wrong. Skim milk has powdered skim milk in it for thickening. Skim milk has been processed with heat and contains OXIDIZED cholesterol, NOT good. This is the type of cholesterol that IS bad for us.

I use two percent organic milk.

The best thing for your baby's immune system is YOUR diet at this point.

http://whfoods.com/foodstoc.php

No more PharmaDestruction, Let's get Cultured!

Ray

PS There's nothing like the power of breastmilk, kinda makes those vaxes look as ridiculous as they are:

Breast isn't the best option, it's the ONLY option!

Here's a lil' bit from Jamie Murphy's "What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization" on

"The Protective Factors in Breastmilk"

"Breast milk has proven to inhibit the growth of many bacteria and viruses in laboratory experiments. Antibodies or isoagglutinins have been isolated from breast milk in response to the following disease organisms: tetanus; pertussis; pneumonia; diphtheria; polio virus 1, 2 and 3; mumps; Coxsackie and echo virus; smallpox; and influenza organisms."

"The immunoglobulin IgA is referred to as secretory IgA (sIgA) and is somewhat different from the IgA that is produced in serum. The secretory immunoglobulin found in breast milk is thought to be produced in the mammary gland of the mother. SIgA greatly benefits breast-feeding infants because it coats their intestinal tract with "anti-septic paint", thus protecting the infant from bacterial and viral invasions from such pathogens as E. coli, poliovirus, streptococi, staphylococci, and pneumococci."

"One of the major reasons for the substantially lower incidence of infant diarrhea in breast-fed babies is the quality of their intestinal flora. In contrast, infants who are reared on cows-milk based formulas have an intestinal flora that is predominately bacteroides, streptococcus faecalis, and E. coli organisms. The gut flora of exclusively breast-fed infants is colonized almost entirely with friendly bacteria: lactobacilli and bifido-bacteria. In 1953, Gyorgy demonstrated that human milk contained a carbohydrate known as the bifidus factor, whcih may encourage the growth of these beneficial organisms. In breast-fed infants, the production of ascetic acid and lactic acid by friendly lactobacillus bacteria lowers the ph (acid-alkaline balance) of the stool, thus providing a suitable acid environment, which prevents the growth of yeasts, shigella, and E. coli bacteria. As a result, breast-fed infants are largely protected from the organisms associated with candida albicans, dysentery, infantile diarrhea, and gastroenteritis."

Remember that the regular meats we eat are loaded with high-powered antibiotics that can knock out our beneficial intestinal flora, and that the infants "colonization" can only be as good as the mothers.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..."sheer curiosity" is the lifeblood of our soul....

...welcome artisticat...

Jarro and bananas with any ambient fruit that your niece likes would be a start.

Altering the consciousness of your sister will take far more effort and time.

How much are you up to? and how much will you be allowed to control?

I get the feeling that there is no breastmilk presently in this equation. Is that so? Has there been any?

If you have the money and can drop off food for your niece, will the gift be accepted?

An organic diet would be best. I'm sure a smoothie of organic strawberries, bananas, mangos and papayas (hard to find organic and the least contaminated) would do your niece a world of good.

Check out the link in the previous post to see the best food options.

Good luck,

Ray

PS While I'm at it, here's a "taste" of what's possible.

This is where we get our beef:

http://www.lasatergrasslandsbeef.com/

With shipping, the family sampler is around 6 and half bucks a pound. Not bad for cheap Omega-3 (try getting fish for that price). My last order had the soup bones and I was surpised to see quite a bit of meat on them. I'm gearing up to make another "Beef Barley" for the winter.

Get whole grain (not pearled) for amazing nutrition. My local food coop got me a 25lb bag for .69/lb. Soup bones for stock, chunks of beef, carrots, celery, root veggies, mushrooms (this is the very expensive part) like shitake, maitake, matsutake, oyster, etc. But even with minimal or simple button mushrooms, this is dynamite nutrition, and as cheap as it gets.

BTW, the beef is aged-- really good. I'm curious to find out what bacteria predominate. I did see recently that L. plantarum is used in dry, Italian sausages.

Also, the meat comes frozen, and though I used to thaw it first, much of the "juice" (yes, that is a euphamism) runs out. Now, I have the no-thaw, grill method. Very hot grill (meat on skillet with a little water--keep a little till the end), sear the outside, then turn down to slowly thaw and cook inside. It works best to the rarer end of the spectrum.

Just got a first jar for culturing sauerkraut. It's one of those Sun Tea jars, that I'm going to paint black on the outside and put a cork wrapped in cheesecloth (to allow gasses out) in the little hole on the lid, using a smaller jar pressed up under the lid to hold the cabbage down under the broth.

I'll be looking for a nice cabbage this weekend at the farmer's market.

LOL


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## punkprincessmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Ray, I'm doing much better, thanks so much for thinking of me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodpapa*
Soup bones for stock, chunks of beef, carrots, celery, root veggies, mushrooms (this is the very expensive part) like shitake, maitake, matsutake, oyster, etc. But even with minimal or simple button mushrooms, this is dynamite nutrition, and as cheap as it gets.

this is what we live on in winter


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## mama2j&t (Apr 26, 2004)

Hi!
I am ready to make yogurt!!

I have Maxi baby-dophilus by Country Life at home right now. It has 3 strains of lactobacillius and 3 strains of bifidobacterium. Can I use this alone as a starter? I am planning to get the "good stuff" like goodpapa recommends but I thought this might work for now. Also this probiotic is a powder so I am not sure how much to use. I figured the recommendation of 6 capsules per 6 oz would translate to 6 "servings" and each serving is 1/4 tsp.

Thanks!


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## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Hi all,
This has been a fascinating and inspiring thread! Because of it, I bought a yogurt maker and am preparing to make my first batch this weekend.









I have a Eurocuisine, which is quite similiar to the Girmi. I was reading the instruction booklet and it mentioned that it can be made without heating the milk. Make sure that the milk warms to room temperature before adding the culture and incubate. What would happen, it states, is that the yogurt would be less firm.

Is there any other reason why one might not want to try making it this way? I didn't know if by not heating the milk much of the beneficial properties would be lost.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

heket, I have the girmi yogurt maker (the flat wide one) and one thing I do to increase the quantity is to substitute four pint canning jars + one of the yogurt maker's small jars to get a half gallon of yogurt (plus the extra from adding starter).

I set the lid on top of the jars- it sits up high, then throw a dish towel over the whole thing and this always works.

I always scald the milk to kill any yeasts or bacteria that got in there while it sat on the shelf, but you'd probably be fine without. Maybe some of the experts will check in.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I always scald mine as well because 1) same reason monnie said AND 2) the heat does something to the proteins that will give you a firmer product as your instructions mention. I also add milk powder to mine.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Just want to post my favorite sweetener...
Stevia Plus with FOS to help the probiotics grow and colonize:
http://www.sweetleaf.com/products/sw...steviaplus.htm

Something Goodpapa said jogged my memory about powdered milk, that it was very bad for you... does anyone have any links on this?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I didn't find what Ray said about powdered milk, but I don't see how powdered skim milk would be any worse for you than fluid skim milk. If you buy powdered milk that has fat in it though, the lipids will oxidize which isn't good for you.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

babe asleep in arms

hello! I am very new to healthy eating







: but am really trying to learn. i read all 13 pages here and all ray's links- to be honest the links were too scientific for me







so I'm going to get dh to read all this. I'm sure I'll have a million questions- but one main one noe. I had read about the probiotics helping to eliminate mecury- is this safe while breastfeeding? I have 4 fillings and once got the flu shot 3 yrs ago







: (stupid.stupid). Would the elimination of mercury be passed into breastmilk?
Thanks so much


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

As far as I am aware, the probiotic bacteria are going to only be able to detoxify mercury as it passes through the GI tract. Say you eat some tuna with mercury in it or maybe trace amounts of mercury from fillings is swallowed, the bacteria will act on that. They cannot have any effect on liberating mercury that is stored in tissue elsewhere like brains & bones. So you wouldn't expect them to increase mercury content of your milk because they aren't liberating stored mercury into the bloodstream like you might see with chelation.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

THank you so much








I have another question, I live in Canada, in a small rural part, so access to a lot of whole food stores is pretty much limited. We have a Nutrition House, and on there website is probbiotics. They have one listed: http://www.nutritionhouse.com/page79.html

Is this a good one? I really don't know anything about probiotics except from this thread that I read yesterday. Also, since I've very new at all this, I won't be making my own yogurt- in fact I'm just learning how to cook







:
The yogurt we've started to buy is "Liberty Mediterranee with Active Acidophilus and bifidus cultures" I was getting fruit flavoured, but will look for plain. Is this an ok yogurt? And I just realized is has the acidophilus and bifidus culture, so will the one at Nutrition House plus this be too much?
Thanks again everyone, I'm learning so much from you guys


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi all,

Please advise. My dd is 21 mos old, healthy as a horse (by the doc's admission in two recent and very expensive office visits! grr) but has had diarrhea for over two months now. In late September, she and I both had colds. I noticed at the end of our illness, while she was bf'ing (still bf's on demand and eats inconsistently in the way of solids) that she had white patches in the corners of her mouth. I looked further and saw what I felt must be thrush; neither she nor I had ever had this since her birth. It seemed to go away w/in a week's time, though. Not long after that (early-mid Oct) her poops went from bf+solids type stool to total squirty diarrhea. She did not have a fever or vomiting; was not acting unlike herself. I figured maybe it was some food she tried that didn't agree with her. The diarrhea continued; thought I might be pregnant, since hormonal changes in mom can cause this; tested negative. Finally went to doc and they suspected yeast; told us to give her a capsule's worth of Florastor (which is absolutely nasty and was torture to try to make her swallow it, no matter what form). We persisted but no improvements. Thrush, meanwhile, would sort of appear and then disappear over the weeks. Second visit to doc ($140 later!!) and doc wants tests done for parasites, blood, etc. My gut feeling was that it isn't these things, so I eliminated virtually all sugar from my diet and hers for a week, and I started eating yogurt daily and taking acidophilus daily, AND we got some jarrodophilus (not baby version but another that says 1/8 t. for babies) and gave that to her every day, hiding it in something. By week's end we saw her stools "seem" to firm up just a bit -- went from explosive watery stuff to a pile of stuff with the heft of applesauce, maybe (sorry to be graphic). Then we went out to a kid's museum and within hours of returning she got a fever of 102.8 and fell asleep for most of the evening, woke up totally normal and fever free the next morning (related to diarrhea or just a bug she beat b/c she's so darn healthy??? I don't know!!) But we missed one day of jarro and her poops are watery again. Sometimes she holds the lower part of her tummy like something hurts, and it often seems to end up being gas. We want this to GO AWAY. What else can we try? B/c of the concurrent thrush, it seems like it is all yeast related. Should we get parasite tests done or not bother? Should we be giving her more than 1/8 teaspoon daily? My gut tells me it is yeast but if so, it seems to have a very strong grip on her system and we need to know what to do to "knock it out of the park". ANY SUGGESTIONS would be much appreciated!! Sorry for the long post.

THANK YOU!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Expect it to take several months of consistent dosage to really fix messed up flora. Whatever dosage she tolerates is good. Sometimes if there's a problem it can take a bit higher dosage to be effective. I also like to use supplemental zinc for yeasty beasties.
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/3-nut/411-zinc.htm

Hbbg, whatever you can get your hands on is good -- something is better than nothing, right? Whatever you tolerate is fine. If you start feeling too gassy/bloated etc, just back off the amount until you are comfortable. If you just want to do the yogurt alone, that's good too.


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Wow -- that long? The doc ordered over $800 of tests and we have to pay entirely out of pocket so, while we want our dd to heal from whatever is going on, we are not big on the idea of unnecessary tests either. Does this definitely sound like yeast though? I was reading on another board about milk protein allergies & diarrhea and I began to wonder if that could be a possibility also, but I thought something like that would have popped up with dd long before now, if she was reacting poorly to dairy proteins in my diet via breastmilk.

Claire


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Yes, you notice improvement sooner, but to really get the balance under control it takes much longer. Anything that causes disruption of mucosal integrity (yeast or other infection) can result in food sensitivity. That's a lot of tests & being that I don't carry insurance right now, I totally feel your hesitation. I think you have to go with whatever feels right to you.

I think perhaps if it were me.... if I gave her the probiotic & it was helping, and symptoms worsened when I slacked off, I'd give that a bigger try before I went for more testing. I'd probably give my dd a dose first thing in the morning with a full glass of water/juice/whatever (dilutes stomach acid which is at the lowest level first thing in the morning) and another couple of doses throughout the day with one being at bedtime and see how she tolerated it. I'd give her as much as she could tolerate without becoming too gassy or uncomfortable. And if I saw no improvement after a couple of weeks, then I might think about some testing or re-evaluating my plan.


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## snuffles (Apr 11, 2002)

Claire,

I have been going through the same thing with my dd who is 33 months old. Almost a year ago she started having diarrhea. Lots of tests later, I am figuring out many of her intolerances. She had a persistent yeast rash when she was a baby. I think the yeast destroyed her system. RIght now she has several food intolerances. She may have Celiac disease but that is not definite (gluten intolerance). Please try to get control of the yeast before it gets really bad. I am sorry I am not much help.

I am feeling really upset about this right now. I now have a 3 month old and she has started having persisent yeast rashes now as well. I am treating her with nystatin 3 x a day but in between applications, the yeast creeps back. I am trying to do an antiyeast diet and I am taking probiotics and trying to get the baby started on some. I am so depressed about this. I went through so many tests and heartache with my other dd, I do NOT want my baby going through the same thing.


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Mel, that's terrible! How awful for your dd. And for you! Well, given that my dd doesn't eat a LOT of solids (seems interested some days, but not on others) I feel at least partly to blame via bf'ing. And when I thought back, I remembered I actually had a yeast infection on my skin (and not even in a "skin fold" or whatever) in the summer so my system was out of whack anyway. Cutting back severely on sugar last week I ended up getting headaches for several days which made me also think I was too dependent on sugars in my diet!

--Claire


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## snuffles (Apr 11, 2002)

The headaches are probably from yeast dying off. It should get better after a week or two. Check out the recent thread on yeast. You should be taking probiotics yourself too. My 33 mo was slow with solids too. Maybe just a coincidence.. maybe not! The allergist said something like, she probably nursed so long without solids because it was healthiest for her damaged system. My dd did not eat solids much until I was pregnant last January.


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

How interesting -- I'd heard of yeast die-off before but didn't realize that's what was happening -- what might symptoms be for my dd if I am giving her probiotics every day and she is also experiencing die-off, I wonder? I am taking acidophilus every day and eating yogurt (which I love anyway -- we "made" our first batch at home last week and it was easier than I thought it would be!) every day as well. If I try to eliminate dairy from my diet and see if that eases her situation, I wonder if yogurt can be an exception that I can keep in my diet, since it is cultured?

Sometimes I get frustrated with doctors; I know some really try but others seem so quick to order rounds of tests (at Christmas time no less -- $$!?) without really trying to be more of a detective about the situation/concern, working WITH you.

--Claire


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
I always scald mine as well because 1) same reason monnie said AND 2) the heat does something to the proteins that will give you a firmer product as your instructions mention. I also add milk powder to mine.

Amnesiac, what is your yogurt recipe that includes powdered milk? Do you find that the powdered milk creates a different texture? Do you use it instead of reg. milk or in addition to? When my dh and I made yogurt last week, the taste was great but it was sort of grainy somehow -- we used lowfat reg. organic milk + organic plain yogurt as starter. Is it better to use acidophilus powder?

Claire


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

In a large saucepan I whisk together whole milk, powdered milk, vanilla & sugar then heat it until you see steam rising from the surface. Remove from heat, cool, then add starter as you did & probiotic powder. I culture mine in a yogurt machine for 5 hours.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

If you have any lactose sensitivity, it's good to culture the yogurt for at least 24 hours to eat up the lactose. Someone probably already said that but I haven't looked at the earlier pages in awhile. The yogurt is more tart, though- but we all tolerate it better.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
In a large saucepan I whisk together whole milk, powdered milk, vanilla & sugar then heat it until you see steam rising from the surface. Remove from heat, cool, then add starter as you did & probiotic powder. I culture mine in a yogurt machine for 5 hours.

I really have to step in and caution about the sugar. I hope I don't step on any toes, but if one is using youghurt to help flood the system with healthy bacteria, compat yeast, improve food sensitivities, eliminate ezcema etc. then it is vital to elimate sugar all together.

If anyone is battling yeast/candida/thrush then not only should refined sugars such as white sugar, brown sugar etc be eliminated but so should things like honey, molasses, date sugar, maple syrup etc.

It is redundant to use sugar with youghurt, the sugar feeds the candida which will overpower the probiotice, if the system is overridden with it(candida).

As well as the 'turf' war that occurs when you consume sugar with probiotics, you literally shut off the immune system when consuming sugar thus the body has a hard time digesting due to the mucousal lining of the digestive system being partial comprised of immune tissue.

I could go on and on but I won't :LOL

Again, I just wanted to issue a caution in regards to sugar.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I've recently returned from the land of "Sheer Curiosity".

I'd been pondering how we can best feed the intestinal flora once they set up shop inside and discovered that there are in fact "sugars" in the form of soluble fiber called "oligosaccharides" that our flora feast on. There's an amazing amount of info out there:

"Human digestive enzymes have little or no effect on raw starch and polysaccharides such as cellulose, pectin, hemicellulose, and pentosan; and oligosaccharides such as melibiose, raffinose, stachyose, fructo-oligosaccharides, isomalto-oligosaccharides, and galacto-oligosaccharides. These substances are hydrolysed to varying degrees and digested by colonic bacteria with the production of organic acids, mainly volatile fatty acids (acetate, propionate, and butyrate), and gas (carbon dioxide and hydrogen). Small amounts of lactic, formic and succinic acids are also produced. Methane may be produced in some people.

Most Bifidobacterium species metabolise a wide rage of indigestible polysaccharides and oligosaccharides to acetic and lactic acids and subsequently act as effective scavengers in the large intestine, when many oligosaccharides are ingested in the diet, while E. col 1000 i and C. perfringens do not."

http://www.healthyeatingclub.org/APJ...1/mitsuoka.htm

So if we eliminate processed sugar, ie, simple sugars which easily feed the bad bacteria (as mountain mom wisely advises) and increase the complex sugars that support the friendly, we dramatically enhance the intestinal environment. To me it's now easy to see how destructive the modern diet is to our flora.

http://ific.org/foodinsight/2003/ma/...ybugsfi203.cfm

Also, my wife and I now eat our probitic yogurts in the wee hours of the morning when the digestive system is basically shut down. Pregnant and lactating women have enhanced stomach acids to derive as much nutrition as possible from food. This increases the difficulty of getting the bacteria through the stomach and into the intestines. We eat one or two yogurts with two bananas for the oligosaccharides, drink a good deal of non-tap water (non-chlorinated--Evian is the choice here) and head back to bed.

With a huevos rancheros breakfast-- corn tortilla, farm fresh eggs and especially BLACK BEANS (another supreme source of oligosaccharides) the previous nights new inhabitants have plenty of food to set up shop.

Today's the day for sauerkraut!-- freshly picked cabbage from Periwinkle Farms (it's soooo sweet--but that sugar WILL already be digested when we eat the cabbage), prepared whey sittin' in the fridge, and a couple of jars, I'm ready to GO!

Looks like we're gonna......

.....GET CULTURED!

Ray


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

It is redundant to use sugar with youghurt, the sugar feeds the candida which will overpower the probiotic
I'm afraid I disagree. It's much more complex than that. We have found our recipe (using 1/4-1/3 C rapadura per 1/2 gal milk) to successfully assist in correcting eczema, allergic rhinitis, food hypersensitivity, thrush and post-antibiotic dysbiosis.

Ray, are you telling me that you set your alarm clock to eat yogurt & bananas in the middle of the night? That cracks me up! :LOL


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I culture my yogurt for 24 hours as well to reduce the lactose content. I sweeten it with stevia after it's cultured if I want it sweet.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't know Ray, with depression that comes with yeast problems and with pregnancy in general, getting up in the middle of the night seems like a bad idea. I can see something like that towards the end of recovery, but good sleep is so dear to new moms that I couldn't see actively disrupting it even for good bacteria. Probably the most important variable for us gals here, and probably your wife as well, is time. It's taken 18 months making a concerted effort to have some glimpse of my pre-pregnant self healthwise. I think it was the overall effort and consistency all of those months that have finally paid off.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, definitely report back on the kraut. I haven't done any yet. ANd so far with what I have attempted, I am about 50/50.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Ray, the catch phrase for what you described is "prebiotic". Preparing the digestive tract to handle the probiotic.

Chicory is very high in these factors too.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Amnesiac, I am glad you have found success with your recipe.

I am concerned that the new people on board will assume from your original recipe that called for 'sugar' that its okay to include white sugar in the process of youghurt making. Which is isn't. Including unrefined sugars such as the rapadura or brown rice syrup or barley malt is borderline dodgy in my opinion.

Sugar of all kinds feed the bacteria (not just candida) that the probiotic is trying to overcome. Thus balance to the intestinal tract is slowed down when sugars are involved.

Ray's post sheds good light on the way to prepare the intestinal tract to absorb the probiotic more successfully.

When there is chronic digestive issues sugars in the refined state should be elimated. The body's immune system is fighting hard enough to maintain balance without being shocked into a non-response by sugars.

Some types of sugars are better than others but if there is a history of digestive illness and weakness why stress the body furthur.

I only wanted to bring this up due to the high number of new posters recently so there would be no confusion regarding the hazards of sugar and the digestive and immune systems of the body.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

And when I've been out of rapadura I've even added sinful white sugar. For new folks to avoid yogurt all together just because they dislike the flavor of plain would be a far greater sin.







Things don't have to be done hardcore to still be effective -- something is better than nothing. Not that a lot of sugar is a great thing, mind you.

Quote:

Sugar of all kinds feed the bacteria
Including probiotic bacteria.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
For new folks to avoid yogurt all together just because they dislike the flavor of plain would be a far greater sin.









I agree. Savory youghurt dishes may solve that. Adding diced garlic and cucumber, shredded with a bit of oregano and a tablespoon of olive oil is a wonderful dip.

Or adding cumin and serving with curry dishes.

If it is a sweet taste one desires adding a bit of frozen berries, or diced apples, or raisins or currents, or diced date to the finished product should offer a taste of sweetness with the tart yougurt.

(Not dissing you, Amnesiac, just offering alternatives.







)


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

Adding diced garlic and cucumber
That really is good. I like to drain my yogurt through cheesecloth & then stir in garlic, and cucumber that has been salted & drained. Super yummy with veggies & pita bread.


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

I have a question about ordering Jarro-dophilus. I'm assuming my whole foods would have it, but vitaminlife is much cheaper. If Jarro needs to be refrigerated (the capsules and the baby powder), how does it survive shipping?

TIA!
Golden


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi everyone,

My dh and I started making our own yogurt a couple weeks ago after reading this thread and both batches seem to come out sort of grainy in texture -- is that normal for homemade yogurt that doesn't have the weird additives that commercial yogurt uses to get it creamier? Or are we doing something wrong? Any thoughts? The taste is great but the texture leaves a LOT to be desired. Also: how much probiotics do you put in -- what's the ratio of probiotics in teaspoons or whatnot to the amount of milk used, for example?

I am also going to re-post something about an ongoing problem with 21 mos old dd, to this board, to get any more helpful thoughts.

Thank you!

Claire


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Sorry, I forgot to talk about that before. I've only ever noticed a more clumpy type texture in 2 situations- when using lower fat milk & at a higher incubation temperature. I have a Donvier machine but I think sometimes the temp is a little too high. Seems that a lower temp, slower fermentation gives you a creamier product. As for the probiotics, I must admit I'm not very scientific. I guess to my half gallon of milk I usually put about ... maybe 1/2 t green label Jarro.


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Thanks -- our oven is very tricky -- an electric, and the lowest possible setting still brings the temp up to 150 according to an oven thermometer we bought; the only way we can do 110 is by keeping the oven door ajar (which is horrible waste of energy) -- is there a range of acceptable temp? We could keep the oven on but closed and set the yogurt on the stovetop, which gets warm when the oven is being used --

?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Usually 110 +/- 5 degrees. That may be the problem -- it may be going too fast in the oven. A couple of other things to try (which I have done before) that may slow it down a bit & give you more of the texture you're looking for:

I tend to do laundry most of the day on Sunday so it's handy to put the yogurt on top of my drier & that keeps it warm. Another thing is that if you have a heating pad like you'd put on your back or something, you can turn it on low, set the yogurt container on top of it & invert a large mixing bowl over the top -- I think Alton Brown suggests lining an ice bucket with the heating pad & placing the yogurt container inside. Also, you can put warm water in a "cooler" like you normally put ice & drinks etc. and put the yogurt container inside there.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..out of the abyss for friend.

While I'm at it let me just straighten out the misconception that I awaken anyone-- let alone a lactating mama-- to have wee hour yogurt.

This is catagorically NOT the case. We are well hydrated and often have an early morning pee.

Good that's settled.

And well, since I'm at it, mountain mom, it's pre-biotic, post-biotic and everything in between that I'm looking at that provides the dietary oligosaccharides for the beneficial flora.

The fact is that these indigestible sugars are indigestible to OUR digestive systems, but are then available once they hit the intestines for the flora to feast on. The beans, legumes etc. of most indigenous cultures (I mean just about any traditional culture but the US) have far greater supplies of these soluble fibers than our "modern"-- ie, debased--diet.

There's some great biochemistry in this piece:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?p...trient&dbid=59

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray

PS If you gotta have sweetener in the yogurt, use a fruit smoothie to mix in it. We make an organic strawberry, banana, mango and papaya (last two not necessarily organic) that is loaded with nutrients-- everything from minerals to digestive enzymes.

PPS Did everyone have their mucilage today? :LOL


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## texas_matka (Jan 29, 2004)

I take Probiotics and so does dd. Would I need to lower the doage since I am nurisng and she would be getting some from me and her's? Probably not, just want to make sure. We just started them right before I found this thread and she has had looser stools.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Whatever she tolerates.

I also got this in my e-mail today in case you haven't seen it before:

Quote:

"To our knowledge, this is the first careful documentation of intake of live bacteria over any extended period of time in any population. The intakes studied can be used as a benchmark for well-tolerated, safe intake of these bacterial agents," the authors write. "Long-term consumption of formulas supplemented with B. lactis and S. thermophilus was well tolerated and safe and resulted in adequate growth, reduced reporting of colic or irritability, and a lower frequency of antibiotic use."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/468412


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

bumping for Melinda...


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## bigcrunchie (Dec 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
The shelf stable Jarrow (EPS I think?) has some sort of enteric coating made out of hard to pronounce junk plus each capsule is blister wrapped to protect from air & moisture. It does say on the label that the fridge is preferable though.

It might be a little late to reply regarding the shelf stable Jarrow but oh well. I would only trust that the capsule is protected from air and moisture is the blister is aluminum. Plastic blisters will only slow the permeation of air and moisture into the capsule. I work in pharma (*gasp*) on the stability of tablets and capsules and I know of no coating that will completely protect a capsule from air or moisture. Even if I bought shelf stable Jarrow I would keep it in the fridge. The fridge will *always* be the best place for those wonderful little organisms.

On a different note, this thread inspired us to buy a yogurt maker and try some on our own. We have always loved yogurt so after reading this thread it was a natural step. We used:
~40 oz. of The Organic Cow of Vermont whole pastuerized milk
1/2 cup of Trader Joe's Organic Cream Line Plain (S. thermophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. acidophilus and bifidus)
1 tsp of Baby Jarrow
I mixed the Jarrow in with the yogurt and then whisked this into the milk after heating to 180 and bringing it back down to 110. I took three bottles from the Girmi after 8 hours and left the other four go until 18 hours. The 18 hour yogurt was firmer but the taste wasn't a whole lot different. Texture was smooth and taste was fantastic! I might have gone overboard with both the Jarrow and yogurt starter but I wanted to make sure it worked.

Unfortunately for my wife, our son has a dairy sensitivity when she eats dairy so I am left to enjoy the yogurt myself for the time being. Our son gets his Jarrow every night before bed though. He is BF already but we thought some more little guys setting up shop in his GI tract probably won't hurt.


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## texas_matka (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks for the info on shelf life. I think it is great that you made yogurt. I made all my dd's baby food except the yogurt because the recipe the The Baby Food Book took much time and effort which I did not have enough of at that time.

I made some in College which multiple times which was very easy since we had the heated rooms. I guess I could trythe yogurt thing at home now.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I'm glad that this thread inspired you.

The degree to which your wife's GI flora is able to colonize your son is a question that I think no one has the answer to.

Any conventional meats in the house will bring antibiotics with them to some degree. Other problematic aspects of modern diets have profound,deleterious effects on our GI flora. Although I don't have the proof, lately I've been thinking that any disturbance to the GI flora at any time in a human organisms life creates slight, though permanent damage. Thus the need in our house to regularly consume bacteria that should have established residence.

When I first started making probiotic yogurt I also used some conventional yogurt starter, but decided that I didn't want to take any space away from the most significant bacteria-- those in the powder. Both Jarrow and Ethical Nutrients Acidophilus and Bifidobacteria make perfect, delicious yogurts. In fact, prior to these my wife would not eat plain.

Food allergies which seem to be epidemic in children these days involve a syndrome called "leaky gut." I recently found this info-- the best ever that I've read:

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?ID=425

This sentence was particularly striking in a clearly unbiased piece:

"A single dose of bacterial endotoxin, administered by injection, increases the gut permeability of healthy humans [87]."

Good luck,

Ray


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Goodpapa, thanks for that article link --

This is very interesting; a month or two ago I posted about my 22 month dd who suddenly started having persistent diarrhea. She lost her appetite (which wasn't much to begin with) for many of the solid foods she used to enjoy and just nursed even more than usual. Aside from the diarrhea she acted normally but occasionally would grab her lower tummy and wince -- we thought it was gas.

Then one day she got a fever which went away overnight. Then another fever (without any other accompanying symptoms) 2-3 weeks later, again disappearing overnight. Our docs speculated that it could be teething or a UTI. She tested neg for UTI and they tested for parasites, infections, etc. Everything came back neg but there were red AND white blood cells in her stool.

All this time, we'd been giving her Jarro and had started making our own yogurt using Jarro, thanks to this thread. (It was delicious). The doc suggested I avoid gluten for a week or so to see if that changed anything; it didn't. We were then referred to a wonderful naturopath who tested (noninvasive) our dd and dairy and gluten came up as the main offenders that she was showing sensitivity to; and for the most part, coming from my diet as the bf'ing mom.

We're continuing the Jarro for dd, and my dh is finishing off the most recent batch of yogurt (sniffle, sniffle -- I miss it badly) while I try to find dairy free and gluten free things to eat. The article was the first time I had EVER seen (and I've been scouring the Internet for two months trying to figure out what is wrong with dd) that associated fever (with no apparent cause) with food sensitivities. It also seemed to suggest to me that, even though we were giving dd Jarro directly and I was consuming Jarro live cultures via yogurt, that her little digestive system is just too ripped up to deal with any dairy right now.

I am assuming that somewhere down the line, the first (and possibly only) dairy type products I can introduce into her or my diet would be cultured varieties. We've gone totally organic with our meats and fruits and veggies and have learned a lot through this -- the toxins that are everywhere. When I was talking with the naturopath, commenting on how it is interesting how prevalent food allergies, environmental allergies (and all the "drugs" for them) behavioral-related drugs, etc. are in the media and in our culture as a whole, I guess it comes as no surprise when you consider the 24-7 assault on our systems from all sides: the foods we eat, the air we breathe, the way we clean, the plastics, etc. I had already picked up a book by Doris Rapp, "Is This Your Child?" -- re. allergies and related physiological and behavioral issues -- it has been very helpful. Apparently she has a new book out, "Our Toxic World."

Anyway, thank you for the link to that article. I saw things in it that really made sense as far as the "vicious cycle" my little one has been subject to these past few months. Now I'm off to try my hand at soy yogurt...anyone have any luck with such a thing????

Claire


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

weegift: this also might be helpful for you -- I know moms who have used it for babes with GI problems & it has helped:
http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autis...m95.html#fatty


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Thank you very much for that article Ray.

Has anyone used Saccharomyces boulardii ?

Quote:

Saccharomyces boulardii is a non-pathogenic yeast originally isolated from the surface of lichee nuts. It has been widely used in Europe to treat diarrhea. In France it is popularly called "Yeast against yeast" and is thought to help clear the skin in addition to the gut. Clinical trials have demonstrated the effectiveness for S. boulardii in the treatment or prevention of C. difficile diarrhea, antibiotic diarrhea and traveler's diarrhea[132, 133]. Experimental data suggest that the yeast owes its effect to stimulation of SIgA secretion[134]. SIgA is a key immunological component of gut barrier function.


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Thanks for the link, Amnesiac! -- though my dd is not autistic, I have noticed that g-f/d-f dietary recommendations for children in the autistic spectrum; which reminds me to write my aunt about that, see if she was aware of it. She works with autistic kiddies and (ironically) is married to someone with celiac.

Forgot to mention in my last post, in the event anyone reads it and sees similarities to their child, and thus finds it helpful, that the naturopath did recommend giving dd jarro daily while we do the elimination diet. Does anyone know if "maltodextrin" has anything to do with gluten? The jarro bottle I have already says it is dairy-free --


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## weegift333 (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi Jane, I used it (Florastor http://florastor.com/) -- it was recommended to us by our doc office -- it was very yeasty in taste to try to give to our dd (22 mos old) and she fought it tooth and nail. They wanted me to take some since I'm bf'ing and her to take some at the same time. We thought we noticed some very slight improvement in dd's problem (diarrhea) but I think by that point her gut needed healing through eliminating food culprits which we didn't know about at the time. It was highly recommended, though, by the midwife who treated dd, for yeast infections (instead of topical / suppository stuff) and supposedly what it does it sweep out all the bad stuff in the gut. If I had been off of dairy and gluten at the time I used it, we might have made better use of it, but I'm sure my gut benefitted from it anyway . If you look on the florastor site it is surprising how much this little organism can do....


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Maltodextrin is made from corn starch & doesn't have gluten.

I've never used the S. boulardii because I don't think it's as safe as the probiotic bacteria. There are really quite a few cases of fungemia in patients being treated with it -- seemingly moreso than infection with the probiotic bacteria I am aware of -- and that wierds me out. I might use it if good dosing with a bacterial product failed with something like C dif but I'd have to have a really good reason.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Thank you Weegift and Amnesiac...
Some reports on s. boulardii does make one think twice:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=262466


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Another study fresh out this month:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496959?src=mp


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Goodpapa,
I'm going to buy a yougurt maker and try to use almond milk as a base. I currently buy baby jarro for my dd who has multiple food allergies and massive yest overgrowth on her skin (4 locations), never had thrush. Could you send the best recipe you know using almond milk? Thanks so much for sharing your yougurt making wisdom.

Moneca








mom to Sierra Bear














1/01/04


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

I've only used goat milk as an alternative to cow and it worked fine. I have no idea about almond milk.

There is, however, a supremely superior food for those little flora friends, you guessed it, mama's milk.

When my son was 3 days old, after my wife's C section (HAD to have the antibiotics) I started taking a little probiotic powder (at that time we had Ethical Nutrients Acidophilus and Bifidorum) on my finger and gently pressing it into his mouth while he nursed. Worked like a charm.

The key, as unpleasant as it may sound, was paying very close attention to the quality of his poops.

When they smelled like yogurt I knew he was gettting enough powder.

Of course Mama was also eating plenty of probiotic yogurts for her intestinal rebuilding as well.

The fact is, without these little bacteria we would most likely have never had our wonderful little boy. The miscarriages due to bacterial vaginosis just wouldn't stop.

Good luck,

Ray

PS I don't necessarily recommend Sacc.Boulardii. We have some, but haven't used it. I would always recommend Lactobacillus and Bifidorum first.

After I experiment on myself and research more I'll share the info.

PPS Again for emphasis: BREASTMILK, BREASTMILK, BREASTMILK ! for those little friendly flora.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Goodpapa,
My dd is still breastfed (after pumping every 2 hours for a month to get it back after a bout with the flu left me dry-I absolutely believe in the power of breastmilk!) After reading the whole probiotics thread, I really want to get my dd started on good yogurt in addition to the breastmilk. I'm limited since she is allergic/sensitive to dairy, soy, goatmilk (even the raw version),and wheat uke . I have a TON of extra breastmilk in the freezer since she only drinks max 20 oz. per day due to her injured GI system. This may sound horrible, but could I make the yogurt from breastmilk - I know, I know, it sounds like a waste. What do you think? Also, I'm thinking of taking papaya enzyme to increase my enzyme load. Do you think the extra enzymes would make it to my breastmilk to benefit her?

Moneca


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## bigcrunchie (Dec 31, 2004)

What an enlightening article. The possible links between various disorders, sensitivities and LGS is an important one for this family. My wife doesn't have any food sensitivities herself but her mother and our son does. My wife however was diagnosed with PCOS but doesn't exhibit any of the outward symptoms normally associated with the disease. Some might even argue that PCOS is an auto-immune disorder, a possible side-effect of LGS. I see some more investigation coming...

Our diet is healthy overall, no meats, few refinded foods, lots of organic beans, grains, vegetables and whole wheat pastas. Though I am tempted every once in a while to eat regular meat while out I remind myself as I look at it that it is probably full of antibiotics. We may go back to meats someday but it will be organic beef. However, since I'm getting ready to head back to grad school (possibly at UNC, btw) organic beef is probably out of the question on my pawltry stipend.

Thanks again for the info.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

I say start culturing the breastmilk.

The culture temp is about 110 F and enzymes don't break down till 118 F so the full nutrient content should be in the yogurt as well.

No point in keeping the milk in the freezer when it can be consumed.

Papaya enzyme is great too. We eat here. I buy papayas to make smoothie (organic strawberry, organic banana, papaya, mango--the last two don't have to be organic and anyway organic for them is almost impossible to find)

I clean the seeds in the papaya, dry them gently (don't want to cook those enzymes) in the oven and put them in a pepper grinder. They're slightly peppery, quite delicious.

ANYTHING you can do to enhance your physical being will enhance your daughter's at this point. We recently went to grassfed beef and cheese to increase Omega 3 and CLA (conjugated linoleic acid-- anticancer compound) among other health benefits. One of which is less saturated fat.

I do believe that high quality animal flesh is important to human health.

Dr. Mercola is a great source of detailed dietary info:

http://www.mercola.com/beef/health_benefits.htm

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..didn't know what PCOS is but I do now:

http://www.4woman.gov/faq/pcos.htm

Excess insulin sounds like insulin resistance. This is something that I discovered (in the course of researching my wife's borderline hypothyroidism brought on by "excessive" nursing, ie mineral loss, on the part of my son) can be linked to Vit. D deficiency. Here's a sample of what you can read with a "insulin resistance Vitamin D" search. This one mentions PCOS:

http://www.wdxcyber.com/ngen10.htm

Here are the subtleties of getting enough Vit.D from the sun-- the most bioactive form:

http://www.westonaprice.org/nutritio..._vitaminD.html

Do what you like, I'm just giving feedback, but the no meat diet cocnerns me.

Check out the above link to Dr. Mercola. I've recently found a source of grassfed beef that is fantastic and seems relatively inexpensive at least when compared to fish (I've been a grad student and am fully sympathetic to those low income issues):

http://www.lasatergrasslandsbeef.com/

Now, we've bought the family sampler (those grad school years are 10 years back) and it's fantastic. But on the last order I bought some of the stock/soup bones for $2/lb. There's alot of meat on them--it's a small circle of bone with a large ring of meat around it. VERY tasty and I can't think of a more nutritious meal than my whole grain barley (NOT pearled), beef veg soup made with them.

What the conventional food industry has done to beef is simply a crime.
Grassfed beef, as Nature intended it, is life-promoting goodness, plain and simple.

If you do move to the Triangle, let me know. We're in Chatham county just south of Chapel Hill where the livin' is much cheaper and more spacious and beautiful than any area around us. There is a sustainable agriculture movement that promotes a great farmer's market in Carrboro as well as a food coop-- Weaver St. I've met the chickens whose eggs we eat, and as soon as I can get it arranged, will meet the cow for our milk.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey Ray,
When are you coming over to the NT thread? Sounds like you have lots to offer there too!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Goodpapa,
Thank you, thankyou for starting this thread and continuing to provide lactation education. I'm determined to make breastmilk yogurt for my little one. Can I eat yogurt made from cow's milk since I'm still nursing her? If I eat cheese or drink milk she vomits upon drinking my next pump. What do you think?

Moneca


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Hi there,
Here is the recipe. If you have any questions just ask. Make sure to follow dilution percentages closely.

This is an essential oil blend that is excellent at healing vagintosis, yeast infections etc. This is for adults only. Take one drop internally daily and dilute to a concentration of 3% essential oils in a carrier oil to soak a tampon in and insert overnight. Also rub the diluted form on your belly and massage. Make sure the E.O.'s are distilled from organic herb matter.
Tea Tree 2 parts
Cinnamon LEAF (not BARK) 1 part
Oregano 2 parts
Peppermint 1 part

This following recipe is for active thrush in babes and kids. Take one drop and swish into the babes mouth and on the nursing Mom's nipples.

In this recipe I am asking you to take drops of oils. A drop of an essential oil comes from a graduate dropper. Turn the bottle upside down and let the drop fall on its own with no help from you (ie tapping the bottle)

Blend into a 12 ml bottle. The total drops into the bottle will be 22 drops which constitutes just under 1 ml.

Again source essentail oils distilled from organic plant matter for this.

Niaoulli 3 drops
Lavender 3 drops
Lemongrass 6 drops
Marjoram 3 drops
Pepperming 3 drops
Rosemary 3 drops
Cinnamon Leaf 2 drops

Top the bottle up with a carrier oil such as grapeseed or jojoba.

HTH, good luck.

This is for *MountainMon*

HTH Please ask if you have any questions.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Thank you mountainmom!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Just bumping this wonderful thread up!


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...what is the NT thread?

While I'm here I don't think I put this link in yet. Good science:

http://www.speedyvet.com/speedyvet/library.asp?page=19

"We've got to get ourselves back to the Garden"

CSNY

Ray


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

It's where the action is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&page=1&pp=20


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

I have a 3 month old on jarro baby, 1/8 of a teaspoon per day. We've been doing this for about a month. He's been on low dose antibiotics for about 3 weeks and will be for quite a while.

Can I increase the dose? His poops are bf poops, but stink. Not sweet smelling like they were in the beginning. I know some of you mention watching for a bowel change to dtermine how much to give and how much is too much.

My second question is about the jarro baby powder. Is it just me or does this stuff just NOT dissolve? I put 1/8 tsp in about a tsp of breastmilk and their are always chunks on the bottom. I'm assuming these are the FOS? Or do I just not wait long enough?

Thanks!
Golden


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....can you give a timeline as to when the poops smelled sweet, when they started to stink in relation to whatever it was that is needing a long period of low dose antibiotics (ie, did the poop smell change with the illness?) and the start of the antibiotic regime? I can't really tell what is causing what on the basis of your telling.

The easiest way to get the Jarro into an infant (I started this on day 3 of my son's life) is putting a little powder on a moistened fingertip and gently pressing it into his mouth when he's nursing.

I'm ready to advise a little Jarro with each feeding on the basis of what I would consider to be radically extreme antibiotic use in one so young (I'm not saying it isn't necessary, I simply don't know) but filling in the above details would help alot.

Good luck and welcome,

Ray


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...the action is pretty thick over here in Health and Healing right now.

I think I'll stick it out over here and see if I can help put out some fires.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray

PS I hope you're doing alright up there in the CA mountains. The videos coming through the press are pretty striking.


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

Hi Ray,
My ds has been on low dose amoxil for some suspected kidney/ureter obstruction. He's on a very low dose prophalytically.

When I say sweet smelling, I mean that normal bf poop smell that he had for the first two months of life. I say sweet because what it smells like now is foul. Sick smelling. I *think* the change in smell started with the antibiotics. Coincidentally, he had a yeasty diaper rash start up about 4 days BEFORE starting the antibiotics, which then about a week later, still with the rash, i got a yeast infection, and a few days later, he got thrush in his mouth.

He has been on jarro baby 1/8tsp/day since about two weeks BEFORE starting the abx.

For his yeast, I have been wiping him down with GSE with each change and of course the probiotics. For me, I did vinegar douches and probiotics and GSE orally. Worked great, but starting slacking too early I guess. It's back and I went for the monistat this time.

It's not clear to me if the foul smelling poops are from the yeast or from the abx that soon followed. Honestly I don't remember if his poops stunk before the abx.

The good news is that the thrush is gone from his mouth (I never got it on my nipples!), and the yeasty diaper rash is on it's way out. (I bleached the diapers as a final desperate attempt to get rid of the yeast).

I would like to increase the baby jarro but fear that 1.5 billion is his tolerance. I would love for you to tell me that everybody else's baby is tolerating much more than that, and they aren't even on abx either.

Also you mentioned jsut putting it in his mouth straight. The bottle says not to do that. Why? It certainly would alleveiate the lack of dissolving problem I have with that powder. The chunks nver make it into his mouth so probably he's missing out on the FOS?

Thanks!
Golden

Off to culture some yougurt. Can I add babyjarro to the milk and yogurt mix?


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

I just got my new yogurt maker- it's a girmi with the glass jars. I'm skimmed the thread, but can't seem to find what I'm looking for. Could someone be kind enough to please tell me exactly how I do this? At the moment, I have 2%milk in the fridge, and jarro capsules. How many capsules? I think I read Goodpapa recommends making 2 jars full at first, then using 1/2 jar for another full batch the next day- do I have that right? Do I scald the milk and how exactly do I do that? The directions that came with the maker aren't very explicit. It just says to put yogurt starter in cold or room temp milk and place in maker for however long I want- not very descriptive. I'm going to pop the jars in the dishwasher to get them nice and sterile, and hopefully some soul will take pity on me by the time their done and give me a few hints.

Please?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Do you have a few tablespoons already made yogurt to use as a starter?


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Can anyone think of a starter I could use for breatmilk yogurt that does not contain dairy, soy, or wheat? I know this is a tough one.

Thanks


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

I just have jarro capsules. I tried it last night- didn't work. Any suggestions?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

You have to have a starter in there too, the Jarro doesn't have the bacteria that give it the texture you're looking for. You can use that same milk, I'd probably scald it first, then when it's cooled to around 112 degrees add in the Jarrow along with a few T. plain yogurt.

Mountainmon, look at the 2 products Ray uses. I think one of them can replace starter. Just look & see if you can find a powdered starter/probiotic that contains S Thermophilus & L bulgaricus.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodpapa*
PS I hope you're doing alright up there in the CA mountains. The videos coming through the press are pretty striking.

OK, here's a confession: we have no television and the local newspaper we get have been coming weeks late. Perhaps I should check out the Christian Science Monitor for our local news. LOL. We've had a lot of weather and so. cal. is having mudslides, so I assume that's what you mean. LOL. In that case, we're fine. Our house is on a great foundation although at the top of a hill. The little house on our property is another matter, but I can see it out my office window and it appears to be here. We do have about 3 inches of snow right now which will last another 3 hours -- it will be gone once the sun comes over the mountain.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Golden,
I'm with Goodpapa... I think you should try to give a little of the Baby Jarro during each feeding. You can put some of the powder on your nipples right before a feeding, my naturopath recommended this and it worked great when my DS was young (now he notices and wants to play with it







)

I think you should do some intensive supplementation for quite some time because it seems that the yeast has invaded first and then the antibx will continue to do damage to intestinal flora. How long are the prophylactic antibx px for?

The new version of Baby Jarro came out about 6 months ago and I hate how it changed. The old version was sweet tasting and dissolved very easily, I could just give DS a spoonful and he would slurp it right up straight. The new version clumps up and tastes flat. The trick is to add infantesimal amounts by shaking very gently (like a fine mist of powder) over the liquid to dissolve it, then it will be more likely to dissolve.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Amnesiac and anyone else who may be in the know...
Even if you dont' use starter, will the probiotics grow in bm? I used to do this and even though Baby Jarro didn't produce a firm yogurt, I assumed that the bacteria was growing and still was very beneficial to drink?


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

Thanks for the suggestion of adding it to each feeding. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who had a hard time dissolving it in breastmilk. I was beginning to think I had wacky bm or something!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I've never tried to culture BM myself so I really have no idea how it turns out even with starter. I think even if it does work well it will be a looser consistency than regular yogurt. One thing I'm not sure of though is how much/if antibacterial properties of fresh BM affect bacterial growth if you try to grow a culture in it. Those bacteria do like the other goodies in BM though so as long as they aren't inhibited by something they should grow just like they would in cow or goat milk. Actually in some of the probiotic supplementation studies done with chilren, they used cultured milk as the delivery medium.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Hey there, I had posted this question in nutrition, but since there are a lot of yogurt making experts here, I thought I'd ask you guys.

Has anyone heard of making yogurt using rice milk? I'm trying to eliminate dairy from my diet, and I think dd has a soy intolerance so I'm going to avoid soy also.

Here is my thread and the response so far. Any other advice would be really appreciated.

By the way- both dd and I take Jarrow Probiotic FOS type (they didn't have the baby kind for her).

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=1#post2510862

Thanks so much!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to give BM yogurt a try and let you know how it comes along.

Moneca


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

Thanks, amnesiac.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Question: Dh would like to try a probiotic. Unfortunately he gets sick when he eats dairy. He doesn't mind some soy in his diet, but we try to avoid eating to much of it... and we already use it in cereals and cooking. Is there any rice based probiotic that is worth the time? I saw the Amasake suggestion towards the beginning of this huge thread, but can't find anything on exactly what ti is or how to make it.

I don't know the depth of his dairy sensativity though. He gets digestive (intestinal) upset from milk, ice cream, cheese and the like. Is there a good chance he would be able to stomach homemade yogurt even if he can't stomach these other dairy sources?

How much should a grown man (6'4) eat a day to start out?

What is the best yogurt maker for the dollar?


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

My understanding is that amazake can have some lactobacilli in it but it's primarily rice fermented by Aspergillus oryzae. I have no idea what, if any, health effects A oryzae might have but it wierds me out because I think it's one of those fungi that can produce aflatoxin. I think I'm just wierd about fungi period though. If you want to try & make some, GEM Cultures has the starter you can order online.

My dh is bothered by dairy too, but not all dairy. For him, it's primarily the lactose (which the probiotic bacteria munch up). If he were to just drink a glass of milk he has bad belly problems afterwards, but yogurt he's ok with. So it's possible your dh might tolerate a homemade yogurt. Or you could just use the powdered stuff.


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## Illuviel (Jul 4, 2004)

Delurking after reading through a wealth of material. Hi, all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weegift333*
Thanks -- our oven is very tricky -- an electric, and the lowest possible setting still brings the temp up to 150 according to an oven thermometer we bought; the only way we can do 110 is by keeping the oven door ajar (which is horrible waste of energy)

Weegift,
There may be a way to adjust your oven' s temperature range.

I know that on the back of the temperature control knob of my electric oven there's an adjustable bit -- I can move the lowest temperature setting ten degrees per notch on the gauge, and have enough 'room' that I can lower the temp to 110F.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...I've re-read your story a number of times and I have one more question:
What were your son's symptoms that led to the "suspected kidney/ureter obstruction." It sounds like something happened and the yeast suddenly (after 2 months) got the upper hand.

I think his "foul smelling poops" are from the yeast die-off in his system, which is definitely good.

My son had tons of probiotic powder starting day 3, my feeling was that the dangers of his having had antibiotics during his birth (the C section) far outweighed the "danger" of getting too much probiotic powder. I cannot imagine that there could be too much of the good bacteria. What isn't needed, ie, has no place to go (they essentially form their on communities at various sites in the intestine) would simply move on.

The trick here, from what I've read, is YOUR intestinal condition right now. If you start to clean out the yeast too vigorously by getting alot of the good flora into your system, the by-products of the yeast die-off will end up in your bloodstream (yeast and leaky gut go together to some degree) and into your breastmilk. Your son is detoxing himself right now, and is already dealing with his own elimination.

One thing you could do that would keep your system somewhat under control is a probiotic yogurt douche. My wife used them all through her pregnancy and even now requests them when she's not feeling quite right.

My son never had trouble taking the powder, maybe try mixing drops of BM into a cup with the powder to make a paste not the other way around.

RiceMomma--- I use just probiotic powder for making my yogurt, no other starter. Did your yogurt maker come with a thermometer to tell you exactly when the heated milk has coolded to the right temp? With the yogurt making unit, I think the heat they supply is to KEEP the milk at the right temp, not in any way get it there. My hunch is that the yogurt was too cool.

Mountianmon-- my Jarro and my Ethical Nutrients do not have dairy, soy or wheat. And I use nothing but the powders for the two different yogurts. The consitency is perfect without any yogurt starter bacteria (st.therm or l.bulcaricus--both of which are not native to the human intestine). I consider the real-estate in my jars to be prime, so I'm only giving room to the bacteria that could actually "stick" around.

Rainbow--- my wife was lactose intolerant and our first step was to get lactase gelcaps (the enzyme necessary for lactose digestion) for her milk consumption. Once she got "cultured" the lactase was no longer necessary.

Gotta go make the yogurt.

Good luck everyone (especially you Amanda--

stay close to home, maybe think about a small TV set for emergencies)

Ray


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

My son has hydronephrosis and a mega ureter(fluid rentention in the kidney and distended ureter). This was detected prenatally by many ultrasounds, has had many ultrasounds since, a VCUG test and has a Mag3 Renal scan in a few weeks. He has had NO visible symptoms, no UTIs, no fevers, etc. Hopefully this is how it will play out with him, as it can with some children. However, until the extent of the effects of the megaureter on his kidney function is known, he is on the abx at least for another 3 weeks. Longer obviously if something comes from this test.

I will try mixing a few drops to make a paste instead of trying to dissolve it.

As for me, I'm frustrated to say the least. The yeast infection is back today in full force despite me taking probiotics twice a day, and GSE by mouth once a day, vingear douches (which worked until I stopped last week), and a round of monitstat3 that I just finished yesterday.

I just made my first batch of yogurt yesterday. So how do I douche with it? How much, how often? Won't the sugar in the milk/yogurt feed the yeast? Wouldn't it be better to douche with the jarro powder? If so, how much of that?
This is really frustrating. The big guns of diflucan are next....I don't want to wipe EVERYTHING out though.

I will up the probiotic frequency in babe too.

So how much probiotics should I be taking, keeping in mind that excessive yeast dieoff will end up in my bloodstream/breastmilk. I have been taking about 6 billion a day total over two doses.

Thanks for your help!
Golden


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
My understanding is that amazake can have some lactobacilli in it but it's primarily rice fermented by Aspergillus oryzae. I have no idea what, if any, health effects A oryzae might have but it wierds me out because I think it's one of those fungi that can produce aflatoxin. I think I'm just wierd about fungi period though. If you want to try & make some, GEM Cultures has the starter you can order online.

My dh is bothered by dairy too, but not all dairy. For him, it's primarily the lactose (which the probiotic bacteria munch up). If he were to just drink a glass of milk he has bad belly problems afterwards, but yogurt he's ok with. So it's possible your dh might tolerate a homemade yogurt. Or you could just use the powdered stuff.


Quote:

Rainbow--- my wife was lactose intolerant and our first step was to get lactase gelcaps (the enzyme necessary for lactose digestion) for her milk consumption. Once she got "cultured" the lactase was no longer necessary.
Thanks! We are going to to try it. The lactose pills don't help him- so I don't know if it is a lactose thing or not. However, we figure we'll make a batch and see how it goes. If he gets sick we'll just try the plain powder. If he's ok than we know he can handle it.

I went to the store today and bought everything... since we don't eat dairy we didn't have any of the products around. Somehow thought I forgot the dry milk







Not excited about going back...


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Just a quick note today:

Psyllium is *excellent* for absorbing toxins in the digestive tract... and keep everything moving along. It's perfect for BF'ing moms who want to detox but not leech anything into their bloodstream.

3-5 grams at night is the recommended dosage with a lot of water, I would say at least 16 oz., at room temperature. I have taken the capsules and find them much easier than trying to mix the powder and then gagging on it.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Golden:

GSE is best taken at before bed/two hours after eating on an empty stomach to kill the yeast in a relatively empty digestive tract.

Also, you might want to research Candex, which is supposed to not cause die off symptoms. There have been some moms here who have used it:

http://www.pureessencelabs.com/candex.html

I think www.iherb.com is the cheapest.

I have more to add but I'm pressed for time... DS is napping and I gotta go shave my legs so I don't look too scary in at water aerobics tonight :LOL


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

OK you've got the yogurt and it's just Jarro?

Did the monistat come with the "plunger" that gets the tube screwed to it?

If not get one of those from the drugstore, cut the bottom off of the tube so you can load it with yogurt and a paper clip (the big ones that look like a clamp). Load the tube right before bed, lie back with your legs up (crooked) and plunge that yogurt right in there. Let it go to work while you sleep.

The bacteria have digested the lactose--- there won't be any sugar left in there.

To boost the douche, I recently started adding probiotic powder to the probiotic yogurt and it seems to make a difference for my wife. It makes the yogurt pastier and probably allows the good bacteria to "stick" better.

Start eating the yogurt instead of the probiotic powder. I can't prove it, but I think it's more effective. Also, I don't know what your sleep schedule is like, but if you're up between midnight and 6 (or first thing when you wake) try to eat the yogurt with a banana (two of each if you can) BEFORE your digestive system has a chance to wake up (before the stomach acids kick in.) The bacteria need to make it past the stomach acids to be able to set up shop in the intestines.

Also, start paying attention to the darkness (yellow) of your urine. When you are able to get an early morning yogurt and banana, you should notice (all fluid intake remaining constant) an intensifying of the yellow of your pee. This is the bacteria synthesizing B vitamins for your body. This will be enhanced if you can then have a oligosaccharide meal (black beans and eggs are my favorite) which gets some of those indigestible sugars (to us humans) down into your gut where the bacteria will then feed on them.

I'm not familiar with your son's specific issues, but I'll be researching.

I'm sure all of this sounds like alot of details with all of the details you already have to deal with with your son, but just a step at a time will do the trick.

I've been at these details for 4 years now and I'm still experimenting and learning.

Bottom line-- I wouldn't have a son if it weren't for what I've learned.

Everybody get cultured!

Ray


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

O.K. I remember reading pages ago on this thread that those with dairy allergies could eat yoghurt because the lactose was already digested. I wasn't sure where that came from since organic yoghurt was the first thing my dd uke @ 7 1/2 months







. Now I'm reading /Breaking the Vicious Cycle/ and Gottschall mentions that youghurt is tolerated when cultured for 24 hours. Can anyone confirm this? My dd and I are on an elimination diet and she hasn't vomited in seven days (miracle)- hate to see her get sick again. I'd rather be sure before trying cow's milk for yogurt. Also, would culturing for 24 hours increse the number of bacteria as opposed to culturing for a shorter time








One more question on yeast. DD has been on Jarrow Baby probiotics (3 x per day) and oregon grape root (to kill the yeast) extract for two weeks. After 2 days her poop started smelling sweet like yogurt and still does. This morning her yeast rash was only in one armpit. Tonight the yeast rash is back in both arms, under her chin, belly button, behind both ears, and in her diaper area. This is much worse than it has ever been. We've both been faithfully sticking to the elimination diet and we're both still taking fish oil. She has never had refined sugar. Any ideas


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

....I did a "wet" run the other day (using water to see if temp held) and it looks like it's going to work. We're eating so much yogurt, I'm getting tired of all the little glass jars.

I'm using a heat-pad on the first setting (mine has three).

I bought a 1.5 liter jar (I'm going back for the 2 liter) for a buck at Dollar General. Wrapped the heat pad around it and held it in place with a rubber band chain (where you link them together) and a paper clip.

We had some Christmas wrapping paper that is mylar foil based (to bad they don't wrap houses with it--we could save alot on our heating bills). One side is decorated, but the other is not-- I put the clear side facing the jar. This foil will reflect the radiant heat (basically the jar becomes a thermal mass) so I did some top to bottom to top coverage both front to back and side to side. A complete seal is not necessary.

I put a Tushies diaper bag over the top to hold it all together and tested the temp after three hours. It was right where it started.

Now, one important thing was that I when I heated the milk, I let it drop to slightly above the recommended spot on the thermometer to account for heating up the jar. When I use the milk I'll do the same and put the starter into a 3/4 filled jar so that the temp has come down a bit and then add the rest of the milk.

It was easier to do it than it was to describe it.

If there are any SNAFUs I'll report back.

Get Cultured!

Ray


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Golden - Many years ago I suffered from a yeast infection that WOULD NOT go away. I made so many trips to the OB. I was not into natural healing and nutrition at the time. Anyway,after many conventional medications, my OB suggested that I try taking garlic. I began to take it every day, and it helped enormously! If I missed a day or two, my symptoms would re-appear. I also did a diluted vinegar rinse (external only) daily in the shower. But I really think the garlic was what did the trick for me. (I'm sure I was on acidophillus too - but you're already doing that.) HTH!


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I've been using the yogurt (with probiotics mixed in), douche at night and vinegar douche in the morning, probiotics twice a day (Maybe 6-7billion a day?), fish oil (2000mg), and eating about two cups of yogurt a day. Totally loving my yogurt maker, although I forgot about it while I was heating it up and totally burnt it. Yuck. Then when I made the second batch, I realized while it was cooling that I had no yogurt to start it with! Could I have just used the probiotic powder? If so, how much?

A funny story: Goodpapa! The first night I did the yogurt douche, dh looks at the contraption (Old monistat tube with the end cut off, filled with yogurt, and folded close with a binder clip, attached to the plunger....) and asks where I learned about this. Well Goodpapa, of course!







Goodpapa? He smiles, laughes, and says something like, only on MDC will you find a knowledgeable guy to tell you how to douche with yogurt.









So far so good. If this doesn't work, I may try garlic, by mouth and/or vaginally.

My ds thrush in his mouth is gone and the diaper rash is gone. He has been getting probiotics and GSE washing with each diaper change.

Another question:
The organic milk I bought (Organic Cow?) had a crazy far away expiration date. I think it was Feb 28th. Then I noticed it said it was ultra pastuerized. What effect does that have? Is all organic milk ultra? Does this mean that I don't need to heat the milk to 180?

Thanks!
Golden


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..actually disseminating on the vagina is definitely a move up for me.

Contrary to popular opinion, there's no glory in the guts :LOL

There is as well no excuse for physicians not having a clue about what to do after an antibiotic/anti-yeast wipeout. The evidence is everywhere when you think about it:

http://www.medscape.com/content/2004...70468_ref.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...m_uid=14581876

And of course this from the first page of the thread:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

What did you use initially to culture your first yogurt? I actually recommend using probiotic powder and NOT storebought conventional. Too many transient bacteria in the conventional.

About 6 gelcaps per 6 0z container will do it. When I'm "starting up" (my son often grabs my last jar out of the fridge) I make two 6 oz, one to eat and one to use to culture a full 8 x 6oz setup.

And now (drumroll please)

I'm crazy about my heatpad culturing system. I did it a second time and it works like a charm. There's double function as well for my over 40 muscles. Even with the stomach crunches my back just ain't what it used to be (granted I don't cut it any slack--- my roadside stone gathering for backyard projects is a hell of a workout)

Read Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions on the problem of ultrapasteurized. No other solution really than to find raw milk.

Why heat to 180? Because pasteurization destoys milks natural antiyeast compounds and the beneficial bacteria that would otherwise keep the bad stuff in check. Raw milk left to culture is how they make farmer's cheese-- from the ambient bacteria from the cow. Pasteurized milk left out just rots.

Moneca-- the skin is an organ of many things, one of which is elimination of unwanted anything. I'm amazed at how quickly the coffee scent of my morning latte (just one) shows up on my skin. That tells me something, but I'll ignore it for now.

Very likely your daughter's rash (at this point) is an elimination function.

What happened to the breastmilk yogurt? Last I remember that was going to be your tactic?

As far as culturing time, I don't see a need for 24 hours. If 3-4 doesn't get all of the lactose turned into lactic acid (thus lactobacillus) any left over would be quickly consumed once the bacteria reactivate in the body.

The issue with dairy allergies and yogurt is the problem of casein (used in making the Tetanus portion of Dtap) which is a protein molecule and apparently a large and problematic one. From what I've read its 3 dimensional character is broken down into two by the bacteria and SUPPOSEDLY that makes it less invasive to the human system, but I'm VERY wary.

The problem of leaky gut is that the inflamed intestinal epithelial cells that are normally rectangular become round, thus creating tiny holes that allow the intestinal contents to leak into the bloodsteam. 2 or 3 dimensional, I would be very careful with the casein content.

Even breastmilk has casein:

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/1875.html

so that the best option for a dairy allergic child would be a cultured breastmilk where the casein would be partially digested.

Thanks for bringing this up. I wasn't aware that breastmilk had casein in it. Although I still wouldn't recommend not nursing-- the other aspects are simply too important.

Good luck folks, keep me posted

Ray

PS Moneca, keep that baby poop smellin' sweet!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Ray,
Thanks for the additional info.


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

..one thing that I can't emphasize enough.

This is probably as potent a life-giving force as those little bacteria.

The Sun-- every bit as essential to our bodies as it is to our psyches.

The Bottom Line (from the link below):

"Using food as one's primary source of D is difficult to impossible."

I'm sure I've posted this link somewhere on this thread but here's one more time for supreme emphasis:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut..._vitaminD.html

As I begin to fully understand the severely compromised state of our digestive systems-- even among those of us that have some awareness, the necessity of sun exposure on our skin gets more and more mandatory. I simply don't think that even the best foods for Vit. D have enough of it in them. As far as the artificial D that is used for supplementation-- forget about it. If I remember correctly it actually interferes with the dietary absorption of the best natural D.

The rest of this site would be great to "digest" as well.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodpapa*
The problem of leaky gut is that the inflamed intestinal epithelial cells that are normally rectangular become round, thus creating tiny holes that allow the intestinal contents to leak into the bloodsteam. 2 or 3 dimensional, I would be very careful with the casein content.

Even breastmilk has casein:

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/1875.html

so that the best option for a dairy allergic child would be a cultured breastmilk where the casein would be partially digested.

Thanks for bringing this up. I wasn't aware that breastmilk had casein in it. Although I still wouldn't recommend not nursing-- the other aspects are simply too important.

I would like to add to this... in our experience I think the best option is breastfeeding while following a dairy free diet. Or possibly only cultured dairy is allowed.

I believe that leaky gut in the mother passes more of the whole milk proteins onto the babe. Generally, most of the protein in BM is easily digested whey and the casein content is quite low.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/2/t021600.asp
http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci308/HumanLact.html

*Re: Raw Milk*
Mercola.com has a source for frozen raw milk and other dairy products shipped from Calif. I just don't have the time to travel to locations in my state (the closest one is not organic or all grass fed) so I'm going to order some by mail. I'll let everyone know what I think.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I remember your previous posts on this issue. Does your DW have her blood levels tested? I was wondering if you could recommend a lab if so. Does she use any supplements at all or only the sun? Is there any physiological signs of adequate D?

You are lucky you live a bit closer to the equator. We currently have 2 feet of snow outside and it's blowing around in little mini tornados. I'm not going out there in my bikini today









The cod liver oil we use is Nordic Naturals which has a low amount of D, so sometimes I take a supplement derived from fish oil (Solaray). I give this to DS in the winter as well. Although I'm increasing feeling like I'm doing this blind, not really knowing if we need more or not.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Ray,
Thank you for the sunshine advice. A friend had told me this months ago and I had forgotten. We moved from Colorado (major sunshine) to NY







this summer and the amount of sunning time has taken a drastic drop. I went and held dd in a sunny window before I even finished reaing what you had to say. The link had good and surprising information. Please keep sending any wisdom that might help Sierra beat this leaky gut and be able to have a normal baby life again









Jane S,
I found a mention of Candex on a previous page and went to the site you had provided. I had asked my holistic pediatrician about Candex and he didn't know a thing. I couldn't find any info on whether this would be safe for a 12 mo old. Since it is only enzymes and rice bran I can't imagine that it would be a problem. Have you ever given this to a young one and how much did you give? Does your little one have leaky gut? Please PM me with his/her story because I'm trying to learn all I can to help Sierra. Thanks









If only I would not have let them give her vaccines


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

to you Moneca, things will get better! You are a great Mom!


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm sorry but I can't go through all the posts and I appologize if this has been answered already. I bought a yogurt maker and it says to just add the starter to the cold milk and put it in the maker for up to 12 hours. The first time I did this I made "yop" and while the girls love it, I like a thicker yogurt. My first question is does the yogurt still have the same benefits whether it's thin or thick, heated to 180 or not? The only milk I can buy is organic pasturized and sometimes I can get my hand on non-homoginized (but it usually goes bad rather quickly, befor the expiry date so I only buy it when a new shipment arrives at the healthfood store). Should I be heating the milk up to 180? I did this with the batches after the first, but this last time I did not because the girls want "yop" again.

I am also on a very insenive probiotic formula to help with candida. I am putting this in my kefir smoothie every morning. It contains
75 billion CFU L. acidophilus (two strains)
12.5 billion CFU Bifodobacterium bifidum
12.5 billion CFU bifidobacterium lactis
30 billion CFU L. Salivarius
10g Fructo-oligosaccharides

Can I use this to make yogurt and if so, how much? If I use it for the first batch can I just take a little from each batch to start the next? How many batches can I make before needing to start all over using the powdered probiotic? If I use the powder should I heat the milk up to 180?

Thanks for your help.

One more thing after reading Golden's yeast problem and advice. Should I be taking my probiotic/kefir smoothie early early early in the morning and then go back to bed, or is it ok to take it when I wake up and start making my family breakfast?


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

I sent my holistic ped websites on Candex and he approved it for use on dd.
The site stated it's action is to destroy the yeast cell wall and therefore would not interfere with the good bacteria as other antifungals would. Here is my question for all you probiotic mamas and of course, goodpapa Ray : Could giving gse in the same applesauce mix as baby jarrow somehow diminish the probiotics? I never considered this because gse is a natural product, but since shortly after starting the gse I noticed that only every othe poop was sweet smelling. What do you think?

Thanks again!


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

I haven't looked at the candex web site guess I will, but many anti-bacterials will kill good bacteria along with the bad. GSE in my experience does wipe out lactobacillus. I am not happy with tea tree oil or garlic either, if I am sick I will use garlic but need to work on recolonizing later.

I will have to read through the many posts previous to this but I have a question does anyone here do fermenting of things at home besides yogurt?
TIA


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Lemongrass is very effective at fighting all things fungal.

Just thought I would add that back in, as well, Oregano essential oil.


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
Question: Dh would like to try a probiotic. Unfortunately he gets sick when he eats dairy. He doesn't mind some soy in his diet, but we try to avoid eating to much of it... and we already use it in cereals and cooking. Is there any rice based probiotic that is worth the time? I saw the Amasake suggestion towards the beginning of this huge thread, but can't find anything on exactly what ti is or how to make it.

I don't know the depth of his dairy sensativity though. He gets digestive (intestinal) upset from milk, ice cream, cheese and the like. Is there a good chance he would be able to stomach homemade yogurt even if he can't stomach these other dairy sources?

there are atleast 300 varieties of lactobacillus, some ways to get lactobacillus outside of dairy are naturally fermented foods like- sourdough - and sauerkraut and kim chee to name a few now you have to get the fermented kind not the quickly produced/processed add vinegar kind.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mwherbs*
there are atleast 300 varieties of lactobacillus, some ways to get lactobacillus outside of dairy are naturally fermented foods like- sourdough - and sauerkraut and kim chee to name a few now you have to get the fermented kind not the quickly produced/processed add vinegar kind.

In answer to your previous question, I've just gotten "Nourishing Traditions" cookbook and have just started making fermented veggies and beverages. I've got gingered carrots and ginger ale right now. I do have an authentic source of kimchi from a Korean friend too and it's delish, really clears out the sinuses!

I want to try the fermented ketchup and salsa recipes next.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainmon*
Jane S,
I found a mention of Candex on a previous page and went to the site you had provided. I had asked my holistic pediatrician about Candex and he didn't know a thing. I couldn't find any info on whether this would be safe for a 12 mo old. Since it is only enzymes and rice bran I can't imagine that it would be a problem. Have you ever given this to a young one and how much did you give? Does your little one have leaky gut? Please PM me with his/her story because I'm trying to learn all I can to help Sierra. Thanks









No, I haven't given to DS, but I think there was a previous post here where a mama had called the Candex company and they said it was safe for all ages. It probably would be better than other yeast killers b/c it isn't supposed to cause die off or interfere with probiotics.

Now if only I can find a holistic ped!!!


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

JaneS - I've been meaning to ask you this...Do you give the Quercitin directly to your baby? If so, how much and how do you do it?

My ND said for *me* to take it and DD would get it through breastmilk. I'm wondering if there's a more efficient way to do this. Thanks!!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Just wanted to share what I found on Candex. It is composed of 5 or 6 enzymes (four of them enzymes that engulf sugar and starches and two of them enzymes that target and engulf fiber i.e. yeast cell walls) rice bran, and cellulose. It is safe for any age and my holistic doc said to give 12 mo old dd 1/4 the adult dose (4 capsules per day) which would be 1 capsule devided between an am dose and pm dose. You can't take it with anything but water, however breastmilk is o.k. since it is predigested and the enzyme activity won't be wasted on it and can target the yeast cells. The are no die-off symptoms because the enzyme engulfs the yeast instead of piercing and allwoing it's toxins to remain in the body. The woman employed to answer all product questions is very knowledgeable concerning natural health care. Her name is Nadine King if anyone wants to contact her with questions. We've been on it four days and dd is already sleeping better and much less whiny - lots more laughter. I have high hopes for the Candex.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pilgrim*
JaneS - I've been meaning to ask you this...Do you give the Quercitin directly to your baby? If so, how much and how do you do it?

My ND said for *me* to take it and DD would get it through breastmilk. I'm wondering if there's a more efficient way to do this. Thanks!!

Yes, I used to give it directly to DS, starting 1 capsule, then 2 capsules a day, separate dosages.

Breastmilk is not a good carrier for this particular nutrient, it's not like other vitamins. Only a very small percentage of quercetin is actually absorbed by the person taking it. So BM would only contain a very tiny amt., and then your babe would only absorb a very tiny amt. of that.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks!


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## eleven (Aug 14, 2004)

I just wanted to thank everybody who has provided such great info on this thread! I was inspired to invest in a yogurt maker and I am proud to announce that my first batch came out wonderfully!! I used some organic plain yogurt and jarro powder as starter. It was absolutely delicious and had a great consistency! Our next project is to try flavors...

Thanks again!


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## Runningmommy (Jun 14, 2004)

Has anyone used protien powder in their yogurt or tofu to increase protien intake? Would the protien powder make the yogurt thicker?

What has everyone done for sweetness and flavors. We just made our first batch of yogurt last night and it is quite yummy. We have put our usual strawberries and blueberries, also tried some honey in it. YUM and FUN!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My dd's both inherited reflux from their dad, who also had a very bad case of it as an infant. He developed a feeding aversion and since they didn't have stomach tubes in India in the 70's, he was force- fed by dropper for 7 mos. The allergies/asthma/eczema come from my side. We know that it goes back at least 5 generations.

I give Nitara probiotics through her g-tube and it seems to be helping. At least it's not hurting anything.


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

So what that heck did I do wrong? two days in a row my yogurt never set.

The first day I used 2% milk (like I always do...), and tried to use just jarro capsules because I forgot to leave a little yogurt for the starter. I think I used 10 capsules for 5 little jars? That didn't work. Pure liquid.

So I did it again last night. Used 2% milk, 1/4 of stoneyfield (which I've used many times before and worked just fine) and a 1/2 tsp of jarro baby powder. After 10 hours (8 hours usually does it), it was half set. After 13 hours, I gave up.

Milk was heated up tp 180 and cooled to 110 each time. Stirred in yogurt and then jarro with a whisk.

What did I do wrong?


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...it's time to test your system by just using plain water. Let it sit for whatever time you do normally and go back in with a thermometer.

It sounds like the temp isn't holding. What type of system are you using to culture?

JaneS-- We did get my wife's Vit.D levels tested, and they were low. Spectrum Lab performed this and other tests:

http://www.spectrumlab.org/

Metametrix did extenisive nutritional analysis as well:

http://metametrix.com/

Of course, you need someone (in our case a physician) to interpret all of the details.

The more I read about Vit.D, the more I am convinced that sunshine on skin-- coated with an abundance of the natural oils produced is absolutely necessary.

"Nature intended for you to make it in your skin, not put it in your mouth."

http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/2/vi...production.htm

This is especially true for those of us with Mediterranean ancestry. My wife's mother's mother came over from Southern Italy. I also have discovered very recently my own Mediterranean ancestry, although it is further back in time:

http://www.tennesseehistory.com/class/melungeon.htm

I had always wondered about my grandparent's (mother's side) strong resemblance to Native Americans. The "ancestral" home was a dirt-floor log cabin in the Southern Appalachians. Sarcoidosis has afflicted us for 5 generations. I had pleurisy as a child.

My hunch ,which I am currently researching, is that cultural origins yield very precise environments-- dietary, etc. Take people (as our transient modern existence so readily does) out of the precise physical environment that they evolved in and you create stress to the organism.

The Mediterranean diet is one of the healthiest known to humans and extensive in Omega 3 oils and Natural Vit.C among many other things.

I am convinced that I, as well as my ancestors, have suffered due to this transplant from the Mediterranean.

cjr-- Unless you are using raw milk you should always heat to 180 first. Raw milk contains probiotic agents that will keep ambient yeasts (that exist on everything) and bacteria at bay during the culturing process. In fact, farmer's cheese is simply cultured raw milk-- using those bacteria coming right out of the mammal. In fact (this just came to me) I would bet that an EXCELLENT test of the probiotic content of breastmilk would be whether or not it cultures on its own.

The probiotic powder that you have will make a yogurt. Just make a small starter and then use the yogurt as starter. As far as the best time to consume the yogurt if you are using it "medicinally", the early AM hours seem to be the time when the digestive system is most completely shut down. Take with plenty of water and you're good to go.

Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!

Ray


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## goodpapa (May 14, 2003)

...everyone. I haven't found the perfect link to demonstrate the depth of its necessity for many of our bodies' metabolic functions but the ambient reading definitely demonstrates it.

But there MUST be skin oil for the sun to be effective. Check out the bottom of this page on cholesterol:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/lipids.htm

I would go even further to say that extreme care should be taken when showering and bathing to retain as much skin oil as possible. We use only olive oil soap that we buy at the "Mediterranean Deli" in Chapel Hill. It is imported- doesn't even have any English on the plastic bag it comes in. Very simple, very basic.

Obviously I'm not saying not to bathe, but our Western Culture is far to harsh on our skin. We strip it constantly of the natural oils and then spend fortunes buying expensive specialty products to "heal" the damage that is done.

The full cost to our internal biochemistry is probably not even known yet.

The incidence of skin cancer in the modern world is not the excess but the absence of sunlight on skin. To not get sun for three seasons of the year and then go and get a tan in the summer is a sure-fire recipe for skin cancer. This is the reason that the experts then start calling for sunscreen and no exposure between 10 and 2.

Constant, regular sunlight (year round) stimulates the melanin that will protect against the damaging effects, while allowing minimal exposure to the UVB in the Summer when the Sun is strongest. In North Carolina the summer sun is so strong that daily bodily exposure isn't even necessary, and when we do (at Noon) its only for under 10 minutes.

Further North its more difficult and the Summer exposure is absolutely necessary. Try to start as early in the spring as possible, start with very little exposure, and increase gradually remembering that Noon Sun is the key.

The darker the natural pigmentation of the skin is, the more exposure it needs for adequate D.

Here's the Weston Price link again:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...ndmiracle.html

Now that my wife's body is slowly recovering from the nutrient drain of my son's nursing (he's 3 and still going strong) we have noticed the amazingly profound difference the sun exposure makes on her entire being. Physically and mentally.

It hasn't been easy. A couple of years ago I had a hunch about all of this, but had a very hard time getting her to believe. Not until we did the testing and she saw the D deficiency (as well as the mineral effects) did she finally come around. Now the sun is as essential as food and water.

Good luck everyone,

Ray


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

I have a new yogurt maker. I bought it maybe a month ago?
I have the euro cuisine one. Just like the gimini one. Little jars.

Grrr......I guess I will test it.

Thanks!
Golden


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Goodpapa Ray,
Thanks for the info. I just drink it in and try to learn all I can to help my dd. You've been a wonderful source of help.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Golden, it does sound like a temp problem. That's what my yogurt did periodically when I used my gas oven and couldn't maintain temp.

Goodpapa, I so agree with you about sunlight. It is so important. There was an article in Scientific American on this very subject (Vit D absorption and people who move their native latitudes and suffer from not enough sunlight).

People think I'm crazy here, but I get the kids out every day to get their 20 minutes minimum of sunlight, as low as the sun is.


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

OK, so I've had a jar of water in the yogurt maker all day. I've checked it quickly about once an hour. Temp ranges from 109 -115. Isn't that what it should be?

So going to just using jarro powder. If I use the jarro baby powder, how much for 7 little jars? Do you sprinkle it in and whisk it a bit? I know Ray you mentioned making a potent batch just from jarro and making a full batch from that. So do you just make one jars worth of milk and then add jarro to it? How much for one jar?

The other thought I had about my two failed batches, one from yogurt and jarro and the other just from jarro, is that maybe coincidentally, I have dead bugs. The stonyfield yogurt was fresh and the jarro powder I opened last week.
I don't know. I'm stumped. Maybe I'm killing the bugs by gently whisking in the yogurt and the jarro?


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Bumping this back to the first page


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Hey. I just spent hours and hours reading this thread and all the links! I just wanted to say thanks for the education. I have taken notes and bookmarked the thread for further review, as my brain is too tired to have absorbed so much info well. I have been making yogurt for some time now but started w regular organic yogurt...I'll be up at the HFS first thing Weds (10%off day







) to look for the "GOOD STUFF." Can't wait to taste (and feel) the difference. Thanks again mamas and papa!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I've been trying to read this thread and have read it several times before (months ago). I'm wondering if anyone has experience with candida in adult men?? Please read my other post here to see what I'm referring to. I am thinking he has some issues related to this/leaky gut syndrome. I think I'm going to put him on the candida diet. (Where do I find recipes??) Any thoughts?


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Hey, I just reviewed this whole thread and couldn't see where this question was answered (I may have missed it as I kept getting called away):
How many batches can you do w the original starter? I mean, if I culture initially w the Jarro and then use that to start the next batch, then the next...you know what I mean. So how many batches before I need to use more Jarro?
Thanks, and sorry if this info is already in the thread somewhere.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

More evidence you should be making your own probiotics:
http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Bump for the Eczema Tribe. Check out the link in JaneS post right before this one if you're interested in the difference in number of bugs between probiotic capsules and yoghurt/kefir made at home.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Hi Mon









I want to add that quote you mentioned from Elaine Gottschall too,

Quote:

"Homemade yoghurt that is fermented for 24 hours, as recommended in the book Breaking the Vicious Cycle, will have an average concentration of 3 billion cfu/mL of yoghurt".
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.i...otic_count.htm

Meaning 1 tsp. of yogurt would contain 15 billion organisms. I don't even think there is a capsule on the market can claim that much.

One batch of homemade yogurt contains more probiotics than one entire bottle of probiotic capsules (at $15 - 20 a bottle!?)


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Jane







,
Glad to see you chiming in!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Bump for SEEPAE!


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Subscribing!

I have all the raw goat's milk from my mom's milking doe that I want and my mom made some yogurt and said it makes Stonyfield taste like crap.







I guess it's some pretty darn good stuff and she doesn't get hungry as quickly as when she eats Stonyfield lowfat yogurt. I have a piece of Rowe Pottery specifically designed to make yogurt so I'm going to try it.

I'm planning to start the Maker's Diet as soon as I can finish the book and I want to get my gut back in order. I used to have an iron stomach, but no more. And my dad has an auto-immune disorder so I'm concerned about keeping my body healthy, especially since I was formula fed after 2-3 months old and completely vaxed (my parents do regret that!).

Tons of info here... thanks goodpapa!


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

Do any of you know if kombucha has positive probiotic "powers" like kefir, etc. Or is it only the milk-based ferments? I have my first batch of kombucha brewing now & am curious if it could be a replacement for kefir or if its properties are not probiotic, if I'm making any sense..... Thanks.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Bump for Matt and Shari







!


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Just bringing this back up to the front!


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

What do you do if your DD won't eat yogurt regularly?


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

You could blend it with fruit and honey to make a smoothie. You could also freeze this mixture in trays with popsicle sticks - the bugs will survive. I mix dd's yoghurt with honey and give it to her in a bottle which she gladly SUCKS down







. You could add some herbs/salt and make it into a veggie dip or salad dressing. You could add honey and dip fruit into it. I mix mine in granola instead of milk







. Hope this helps.

Peace,


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

hello all!

i am trying to read through this thread and am on page 13. i will try and finish tonight. but i wanted to post a couple of questions while i am thinking about it.

first a comment really. someone on here was talking about the girmi yogurt maker. i bought one after looking at the different ones, and it seemed like the easiest. i eat a lot of plain organic yogurt but it still doesn't keep the yeasties away so i was hoping if i culture my own i would get more benefits. i also take probiotics in a pill form but the other night i ate a bowl of ice cream (first one in a LONG time), and then BAM, yeast. i drink smoothies with fruit juice and fruit which has a lot of sugar and i seem to be able to tolerate those. i'm not sure what to use as a starter. i think i will start with store bought yogurt until i decide. plus the trip to the health food store is kind of a drive if i wanted to buy a starter.

second, i just started drinking kefir- store bought. wow it is a strong flavor and different consistency. i am going to try to get used to it b/c it has so many different bacteria and i need all the help i can get.

any tips?


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

oh ya now i remember my ? about kefir

why do you need to take it first thing in the morning? i have to take my thyroid med on an empty stomach and an hour after that i'm starving for a real breakfast. can i take it another time of day? maybe a smoothie will help with the taste.

also could my son drink a kefir smoothie? he is one. for some reason i feel weird about giving it to him. maybe just b/c it is new to me. i felt weird about giving him probiotic powder at first and that cleared up his thrush so well. i swear by it now.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodpapa*
..

This is catagorically NOT the case. We are well hydrated and often have an early morning pee.


hey i'm glad i'm not the only one. i thought maybe there was something wrong with me but i drink A LOT OF WATER. when my son was nursing, he would wake me up at night to nurse. then by that time i was wide awake (couldn't just drift back off like in the early months). so i would get up, pee and get a snack!

i also like bananas in my yogurt ray. just b/c it was yummy. i had no idea it was beneficial


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Nicole,
You could use probiotic powder to start your yoghurt or another yoghurt - Stoneyfield is one I've used. I also use Yogourmet starter that I order from www.lucyskitchen.com
Kefir should be fine for a one year old, but the kefir gurus are on the nutrition forum. Mountainmom and Galeforce are usually on that thread and have good advice. There is a thread on the nutrition forum "NT thread for July" that is filled with kefir lovers. NT stands for Nourishing Traditions which is a book by Sally Fallon.
Girimi should work well.
Good luck.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Okay, I just had to post that I am about where I LOVE my yogurt plain! This is huge for me as I have always been a big big sugar addict. But, I've been making smoothies in the morning with raw milk (LOVE that too!), my yogurt (made with organic milk), flax seed, spirulina, barley grass powder and fruit (banana, strawberries and sometimes mango). One morning I forgot the honey and realized I liked it anyways. Then, when mixing some yogurt, honey, and flax seed for my dh, I licked the spoon after scooping some yogurt into the bowl and thought, wow, this tastes pretty good! I am so excited ... I actually have stopped craving sugar and now crave home made yogurt mixed with raw milk and fresh fruit/veggies.







I just wanted to share that ... since this is probably the only place that would really appreciate it (MDC that is).


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

yes, i know what you mean. i actually remember saying a year ago that i wanted to start eating plain yogurt but couldn't get over the taste. i started by putting it in smoothies and now i can just eat it plain or maybe with some almond butter or bananas.


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## BklynMom (Oct 5, 2004)

I have a question....

I started taking probiotics (2X a day) myself a couple of weeks ago, when I had to give my DD antibiotics for an infection in her belly button. So now it turns out she has to have surgery and will get large amts. of antibiotics during and after the surgery, and has also been put on a low dose antiobiotic until the day of the surgery (about 3 wks from now). So I began giving her the BabyJarro brand last week. I started her on 1/8 tsp. and increased to 1/4 tsp. after several days. Now it seems to be giving her more frequent bowel movements. She usually goes every other day, but now with the higher dosage of the BabyJarro, she seems to be going 1-2X a day. Is this a normal side effect of probiotics or should I lower the dosage??? Also, what is the correct dosage for a 4 month old? Should I change either my dosage or hers??? I just want to make sure she's getting enough since she's going to be on antibiotics for a few weeks and I don't want it to totally screw up her system. This thread has been a great read... thanks for all the helpful info.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Bklyn mom -
It is an excellent idea to give your dd probiotics. I have found it most beneficial to give probiotics three times per day. Start with a small amount if you increase to 3x . You'll know that you are giving too much if her stools are runny.

Peace,
Moneca


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## mlleoiseau (Jun 28, 2005)

I would love to have yogurt again. Especially for the probiotics. And I'd love to give it to dd. But, I am still breastfeeding dd who is anaphylactic to milk. I have heard that if it's cultured properly, milk allergic people can tolerate it, but I'm too afraid to try it. (The same week we found out about her dairy allergy, one of her playmates had one bite of yogurt, went into anaphylactic shock and almost died.)
We can't do soy yogurt either or goat's milk. So, does anyone know if it's possible to make yogurt from coconut milk? I've heard that rice milk yogurt doesn't turn out too well, besides coconut milk has healthy fats. And what about breastmilk? I only get about 1 1/2 oz per pumping so I'd really rather do coconut milk but I could pump frequently.
Thanks in advance for the response!
Deborah


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

I asked the exact same question about breastmilk yoghurt when I was dying to get probiotics into my babe who I thought was "allergic" to everytihing. She never had an ana type reaction. I think you are very wise not to chance it







. There is a recipe for nut milk yoghurt (which I would not suggest since it is a high allergen) on the following link under the recipe section. You could try this and just substitute the coconut milk. If this recipe does not work for the coconut milk I would go to the good nutrition forum and ask the same thing. They are very wise about culturing anything under the sun - esp. on the NT thread (nourishing traditions)

http://www.pecanbread.com/recipes.html

Peace,


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

See links at very bottom of page...
http://www.giprohealth.com/starter.html

research review articles on:

Immunologic Effects of Yogurt

Yogurt and Gut Function

Yogurt Influences Intestinal Health


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Jane, would you choose yogurt over kefir? I make kefir because the milk is not heated at all. We only consume raw dairy, so to me it seems a shame having to heat the milk to make the yogurt.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Jane, would you choose yogurt over kefir? I make kefir because the milk is not heated at all. We only consume raw dairy, so to me it seems a shame having to heat the milk to make the yogurt.

From what I understand, you only need to get the raw milk up to 110 degrees to make yogurt - no need to heat it to 185 or so. That way you aren't killing off the good stuff while culturing it into yogurt.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
From what I understand, you only need to get the raw milk up to 110 degrees to make yogurt - no need to heat it to 185 or so. That way you aren't killing off the good stuff while culturing it into yogurt.

Actually, the enzymes and vitamins and minerals in raw milk will begin detrimental alteration at temperatures above 93º. I guess if all you are concerned about are the bacteria it probably would be okay, but as far as I know, by heating the milk even to 110º you are killing off a great deal of the "goodness". This why I am asking. It just seems a shame to do that if you are making the yogurt with raw milk.


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

Hi, I've read through this thread like 3 times and I am going







with all the yogurt making instructions. Am I just dense? I went to college and I still can't figure this out. I normally consider myself to be a smart person but maybe it's just late :LOL .

Anyway, so I want to make some yogurt for my family (I'm doing dairy free for now bc baby has eczema but maybe soon I can eat this too). We don't have a yogurt maker so I was thinking the oven idea sounds easiest.

Ok here's what I have figured out (help if I am totally off!)

1. Heat 1 quart milk (preferably organic and whole) to 185 in saucepan and then cool to 110 to 115.

Q. We just have regular 2% for now, will this work?

2. Warm oven to 100

Q. Not sure how to do this, I read somewhere a 60 watt bulb will warm the oven to this temp? Am I wrong? Should I just put it on 150 and then let it cool off a bit?

3. Pour milk into casserole dish and add 3 Tbsp. yogurt (I got some yogurt from the store with live bugs)

Q. I'd like to add some Baby Jarrow, how much can I add for 1 quart of milk? Will this do something weird because I am already adding 3 Tbsp. of yogurt?

4. Stir mixture, cover dish and put in the oven overnight or up to 24 hours.

Q. Do I leave the 60 watt oven light on, or can I just leave the oven door closed and pray the temp doesn't drop? If I keep checking it will it cool off too much?

OMG you would think that with over 20 pages of this thread I could have figured it out by now. Seriously, I read each and every word (except for the studies). Somebody shoot me please! Or is it just something I have to jump in and try and experiment before it works?

Thanks so much for reading.
Liane


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Liane,
You will want to have the light on and the door closed on your oven for the temp to stay right. If your oven will not keep its light on w the door closed, then if I were you, I would use the cooler method (pour heated water into a small cooler and leave it in a warm place to incubate the yogurt).

I think that if you are using 2% milk, then your yogurt will be thin. You can acheive the creamy, thicker consistency with the help of powdered dry milk. I don't do this (have used whole milk every time), but I am pretty sure I am remembering accurately that you add 1 c dry milk to each qt of milk (someone please correct me if this inaccurate!)

On the babyJarro, you would want to start w innoculating only a small container w that, which you can use to start subsequent batches. This would be much more economical than innoculating a full batch w the Jarro. I don't use any storebought yogurt to start mine at all, just the Jarro. I don't know about the baby stuff at all, but w regular Jarro I use either 12 caps or @ 4TBS to 1 3/4 c milk for my initial batch, and then use half that to start the next full quart.

Here is a good page w pictures that might help you out:
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser...YOGURT2000.htm

HTH! and Good luck!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Jane, would you choose yogurt over kefir? I make kefir because the milk is not heated at all. We only consume raw dairy, so to me it seems a shame having to heat the milk to make the yogurt.

I agree, and I had been making kefir, and doing very well on it.... until we decided to start the Specific Carbohydrate Diet and it only recommends acidophilus, bulgarius and thermophilus organisms in certain yogurts and starters. However, I'm finding it hard to give up my kefir. And, I find that I better tolerate and have improved digestion using the powdered kefir starter from Body Ecology rather than the grains. I dont' know why this is.... the since the grains are supposed to be "better".

Sorry this is a roundabout answer. But many experts and lay people disagree as to "which strains of probiotics are best". I think you just have to listen to your body.

But it seems to be that the enzymes and other immune boosting properties of raw milk might be best untampered with. I've also found that making raw milk (unheated beforehand) yogurt turns into something different and more watery so perhaps the yogurt organisms are hampered by the other live bacteria in the milk.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Oh and I also want to add that since the intestines contain something like 300 or 400 different strains of probiotics, the above articles regarding immunological properties of yogurt probably apply to other probiotics, not just the kind that is normally found in yogurt. (For ex. L. Casei and L. Reuteri which have been studied for their unique properties. L. Plantarum too.)


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
I agree, and I had been making kefir, and doing very well on it.... until we decided to start the Specific Carbohydrate Diet and it only recommends acidophilus, bulgarius and thermophilus organisms in certain yogurts and starters. However, I'm finding it hard to give up my kefir. And, I find that I better tolerate and have improved digestion using the powdered kefir starter from Body Ecology rather than the grains. I dont' know why this is.... the since the grains are supposed to be "better".

Sorry this is a roundabout answer. But many experts and lay people disagree as to "which strains of probiotics are best". I think you just have to listen to your body.

But it seems to be that the enzymes and other immune boosting properties of raw milk might be best untampered with. I've also found that making raw milk (unheated beforehand) yogurt turns into something different and more watery so perhaps the yogurt organisms are hampered by the other live bacteria in the milk.

I have only ever made my kefir with the grains so I don't know what the difference might be. In our case we are really not dealing with any guts that need a great deal of healing, although I am sure they could use some improvement! We basically consume kefir because it is generally so beneficial. We don't have many allergy issues, DH is intolerant of gluten and a few other things (caffine - there went his quadruble iced Americano - decaf just isn't the same







and peppers), and DS has intolerances towards, beef, pork, asparagus and lemons, he also has an _allergy_ to feathers but none of these things are much of deal. He is still an extremely picky eater but after having him tested and having nothing much come of it, I guess that it is just "him". We are not dealing with any behaviorial issues either. He has been taking a couple of Toby-specific homeopathic remedies to address his "mouth breathing" which has helped immensely.

Anyway, as everyone seems fine on the raw milk kefir, I think I am going to stick with that and not get into the specific strains of probiotics.


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

Ack, I made yogurt but it didn't work! Well, it sort of did. I made one out of 2% milk and dry milk that I scalded and added some regular yogurt. This one was fine. The almond milk totally didn't work though! I did the same thing except heated to 120F, then added some Jarrow (8 caps for 1 cup), shook it, and then put it in a cooler overnight with 125F water.

I used the instructions here: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser...YOGURT2000.htm

I made the almond milk by peeling the skin off the almonds, adding an equal amount of water for the almonds (1 cup almonds/1 cup water), blended, then strained it.

I figured I didn't need to heat it to 185F like regular milk--was this my problem?

Or does almond milk just not work well for yogurt?

Can I still drink the failed almond milk mixture? Or will I just make myself sick?

Help please!







:


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## greencat (Jul 8, 2005)

CHECK THIS OUT!!!

Simple Home Candida Test:

Try this simple test to see if you have a candida yeast infection.
First thing in the morning, before you put ANYTHING in your mouth, get
a clear glass. Fill with water and work up a bit of saliva, then spit
it into the glass of water. Check the water every 15 minutes or so for
up to one hour. If you have a yeast infection, you will see strings
(like legs) traveling down into the water from the saliva floating on
the top, or "cloudy" saliva will sink to the bottom of the glass, or
cloudy specks will seem to be suspended in the water.

If there are no stings and the saliva is still floating after at least
one hour, you are probably yeast infection free. ThreeLac could then
be used to maintain good bowel flora and proper pH, and prevent a
yeast infection from coming back as we are always exposed to things
that may cause it to come back.

Most people fail the test. I have heard that over 80% of the
population has candida yeast infections. While using ThreeLac, you can
continue to test yourself. You will start to see fewer and fewer
strings hanging down.


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

OMG! I am totally doing this tomorrow morning!
Thanks so much !!


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Okay, that sounds so totally gross and yet, I'm making dh do it with me in the morning (separate glasses







). All I can say is ... ewww! :LOL


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj*
Ack, I made yogurt but it didn't work! Well, it sort of did. I made one out of 2% milk and dry milk that I scalded and added some regular yogurt. This one was fine. The almond milk totally didn't work though! I did the same thing except heated to 120F, then added some Jarrow (8 caps for 1 cup), shook it, and then put it in a cooler overnight with 125F water.

I used the instructions here: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser...YOGURT2000.htm

I made the almond milk by peeling the skin off the almonds, adding an equal amount of water for the almonds (1 cup almonds/1 cup water), blended, then strained it.

I figured I didn't need to heat it to 185F like regular milk--was this my problem?

Or does almond milk just not work well for yogurt?

Can I still drink the failed almond milk mixture? Or will I just make myself sick?

Help please!







:

Nevermind. I found better instructions for almond yogurt on the pecanbread site. I'll let you know if it turns out.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Okay, dh and I did the spit into water test ... I had very little in terms of "whispies" floating down, he had tons that settled upon the bottom of the glass. ewww But then again, I eat about 1 cup of homemade yogurt a day, and drink between 2-4 cups of homemade kefir a day. After about a week of the GI issues associated with so much kefir so quickly, I know it was busy kicking the yuckies out of my system. So, dh has now decided to up his kefir intake too ...


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

I failed the spit test miserably, need to get to work on that 24 hour yogurt.

Now I gotta get DH to try too.


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

OK, I've finally come back to this thread.








But, I have some questions. My dd is now 6 months old, and has always, well since she passed all the meconium, had very stinky, orangy colored loose stools. She's never had the nice bm poops like my ds had. She has lots of gas too. I am not on probiotics now,







: and she never has been. What do you all recommend? Should I put her on them first, or both of us? What brand is relatively affordable and good? I'm also looking into yogurt making again, but don't want to do things too quickly.
I would like to totally remove sugar from our diets, but boy is that going to be hard. I do think it would help my ds. Don't know exactly in what way-just an instinctual feeling.
Any suggestions?


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

Hi zanelee, my baby has not had good poops in a while either, and I don't have any advice for you as we are still struggling, but here is a good thread to read for info:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=320840

Hope this helps!
Liane


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## kamesennin (Jan 3, 2005)

Hello, I need advice on my yogurt, please!

I'm making yogurt right now, and I would like to culture it for 24 hours. But I can't figure out how to do that!

I am using this method:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhause.../YOGURT2000.htm

So right now my yogurt is in a cooler with 110F water, the directions say to leave it in there for 3 or 4 hours. Do I just keep adding hot water to the cooler to keep the temp steady at 110F up until 24 hours is reached?

Thanks,
Liane


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Anybody have an suggestions for me... a friend has a dairy/soy allergic (since birth) dd who is almost two years old. She was nursed until around 14 months old and since then her health problems seem worse. She currently has pneumonia and is on high doses of antibiotics. Since she's allergic to dairy/soy, what can she do? Is is possible to make Kefir or yogurt without using dairy or soy? She is not gaining weight and the doctor's office continues to suggest hot dogs, butter, cheese, whole milk etc despite the fact that she's allergic. I'm trying to dig through this thread, but I'm on dialup and my kids are needy so I appreciate any help anyone can give. PM me if you want to keep it off this thread!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Michelle,
Please check out "gut healing tribe" in health and healing. You can make kefir from grape juice (I use organic without additives, but you could use any juice).

Peace,


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

*Warning about Baby Jarro-dophilus*

Gut issues have been plaguing DS and I for a long time (despite consistenting taking probiotics and Elimination/Rotation Diets, but that's another story).

DS had been on Baby Jarro for almost a year. We did use others, but chiefly this one. It did help his stool firm up and digest food better. However, he still needed to be on a restricted diet and certain grains, all forms of sugar and other things would send him quickly back into mushy "stink-to-high-heaven stool" Land.

We had a stool analysis done after a year of the above interventions (diet, probiotics) and he was 4+ for Bifidus. NO Acidophilus. And 4+ for several potentially pathogenic bacterium: Citrobacter, Klebsiella, and Proteus mirabilis.

It wasn't until we started reading about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet that I learned that the author of said diet does NOT recommend bifidus b/c it has a tendancy to overgrow and encourage the development of pathogenic bacteria.









Since that's exactly what happened with us, I believe her. She only recommends acidophilus, bulgaricus, and thermophilus calling them "community minded" organisms. Also she notes that research has shown that a bifidus dominent gut beyond exclusive nursing period (first 6 mos of life) is correlated with celiac disease.









It is very frustrating that so little research is available in this area re: which is the best or even most beneficial probiotics.









DS is still most likely dairy intolerant, so he gets Kirkman Acidophilus until I get my non dairy yogurt making up to speed for him.

I'm doing terrifically on The Body Ecology Diet Kefir powder starter made with raw milk for my probiotic fix. Kefir has beneficial yeasts which the SCD author is not sure about but since I improved greatly on it, and is easy to make and preserve the other beneficial enzymes from the raw milk, it's staying for now.

If you want to read more about the SCD for healing the gut see:
www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info
www.pecanbread.com

and the "Healing the Gut Tribe":
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=320840

UPDATE: the gut flora imbalance due to antibiotics at birth and thrush issues with me led to food allergies in DS. *Bifidobacterium is absolutely the correct probiotic to give a babe and toddler.* See Healing the Gut Cheat Sheet. However, we've always had issues with FOS.. it makes bad bacteria grow as well as the good, depends on what's in your gut.


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

Ok, I've got a question.
I've finally gotten myself back on probiotics. The one I'm taking has these in it:
Bifidobacterium breve,
bifidobacterium longum,
lactobacillus rhamnosus,
lactobacilus acidophilus.
My children aren't taking any just yet, as I had to order it. It should be here in a week or so. Both are still nursing, the baby moreso, and both have had looser stools and more gas. The baby moreso, I'm assuming because she's nursing more than my 3yo. I'm assuming also that this is because of the probiotics I'm taking. Is this normal? Something I should be worried about?
Should I do anything, or just wait and see?
Thanks so much!
Also- are the first two I've listed the bifidus bacteria. JaneS- your post made me think...I don't remember which ones are in the powder I ordered for my kids, and that bifidus isn't commune bugs...hmmm....
I don't want to trade one (or several) bad bugs for just one good one.

Oh, and now my poor dd has what looks like "poop scald" on her.








Someone help!


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Thanks for the info Jane.. I passed along the link to the Healing your Gut tribe and I hope she'll find some good info there. They are struggling so!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zanelee*
Oh, and now my poor dd has what looks like "poop scald" on her.








Someone help!

This bullseye rash and gas meant yeast in my DS.
Has she started on solids? In fact, DS got a "rash from hell", first ever in his life, when we started that horrid rice cereal as his first solid. And eczema started then too. If only I knew then what I know now...


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

Quote:

Has she started on solids?
Well,







: we did start giving her that same horrid rice cereal a couple of months ago. But it's been VERY sporadic. At least I've only given it to her maybe 4 or so times. Other than that, she's only had a few bites of banana. She's definately ready to eat some solids, but I'm just too scared now, and really don't know what to give her.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I totally know how you feel!

I'd stick to fruit and veggies and then meat and egg yolks. The grains will just feed the yeast. Definately start probiotics.

Banana can be excellent as long as the peel is well covered with brown spots... which means all the hard to digest sugars have been converted to simple sugars that are rapidly absorbed. I think avocado is a good first food as well but as with anything go slowly, wait several days before starting something new and note any reaction.

I liked to steam organic veggies then puree them very well with a bit of breastmilk to help digest them (bm has enzymes).

You might want to come over to the Gut Healing Tribe in this forum and look around


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

Quote:

I'd stick to fruit and veggies
Sounds good to me, and nice and simple.

Quote:

I liked to steam organic veggies then puree them very well with a bit of breastmilk to help digest them (bm has enzymes).
What a great idea! This never occured to me. Do you store any of your prepared food, or do you just fix it up right before feeding it to baby? If so, how long were you comfortable storing it?

Quote:

You might want to come over to the Gut Healing Tribe in this forum and look around
I'm a lurker there...








Thanks so much for all your info!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I used to freeze small batches (using glass containers, I was and am a bit of an anti-plastic freak). Or used frozen veggies.

I was only comfortable storing food for a day plus I know that that vitamins break down. Add the bm right before feeding though, it will start to digest the food and shouldn't be mixed and then stored.

Steaming is so easy and quick, things take no time to heat up. I got a Braun stick blender to puree the food. It's easy to wash too.


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

Thank you so much for all your help and information. I have another question. Should you let all fruit be a bit "older", like the bananas? Or are other fruits ok when their ripe?
TIA-
Jennifer


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

OK, here's a question for all of you. I put myself back on probiotics (over 1 week now). I've got some prob. powder ordered for my kids...but that's another story. Anyway-since I've been back on them, I've had a major "outbreak" of boils. (geez I'm so embarrassed) Not just in one spot, but all over. It's awful! Is this a consequence of the good bacteria getting rid of some bad? I mean it's not like I don't keep myself clean and all....
And what do I do about them? My other worry about it is that I have them under my breasts, and I'm breastfeeding. Both my children still nurse. I worry about one of the infections somehow getting into a milk gland/duct.
(Geez louise! This is just way too much info., I'm so sorry.) I use antibacterial soap for bathing, and drink water....I'm working on my diet....
But can anybody help me? Please?!


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## Carsonsmama (May 17, 2004)

I live a very sheltered life.....







:
Just last week when reading this thread is THE first time I have ever heard of probiotics, homemade yogurt and kefir.....Bad I know!

However now I am very interested and have NO idea where to start.
Would anyone mind doing a little hand holding?
What do I need to read...any good books out there?
And what do I need to buy and do to make my own yogurt? I need allot of hand holding here a list of things I need and a recipe too!!
I did an internet search but I just want to make sure I am making the GOOD yogurt!
I would really appreciate it!
Thank you!


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Well Zanelees mom, your outbreak of boils could be your body trying to throw out a whole lot of toxins. It is quite possible that the probiotics are doing a springclean of your gut, and that has liberated a lot of toxic material. I am surmising here...

One thing for sure is that boils come when the blood is toxic. And a high dosage of echinacea can really help. It cured me of the one boil I have ever had, very fast.

As to you Carson's mama, yoghurt is incredibly easy to make. You just need a large glass jar and a warming cupboard (u know, where a hot water cylinder is). Get some milk. I recommed unpasturised, but organic pasteurised will do. Cows milk or goats. I myself prefer goats. heat it up til it is the same as your body temp. Then add to the clean jar.

.....and then put a bit of yoghurt in, about one tbsp, from a high quality yoghurt you can get from the stores. The cheap stuff often doesn't have live bacteria in it anymore. You'll soon know if there was live bacteria or not in the yoghurt, because if there wasn't, nothing will happen to the milk.

Next, store it overnight in the warming cupboard. Yoghurt bacteria grows best in warm temperatures. And hey presto, in the morning, or at least the next evening you should have a nice thick creamy yoghurt, full of good bacteria. Goodpapa is the expert, but it sounds like lactobaccillis type bacterias are the best, and L. Reuteri.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Does anyone else make their yogurt using pottery? I use a Rowe Pottery Yogurt Maker and just made my first batch on Sunday night. It appears to have turned out.

The recipe is as follows:

Quote:

Bring one quart of water to boiling; pour into Yogurt Maker and set aside.

Combine one qt of whole milk [I used fresh raw goat's milk] and 1/3 cup of dry non-fat milk [I used organic, I assume it's cow's milk though]. Heat on medium high until it reaches 180 degrees. Monitor temperature with the enclosed thermometer. Remove from heat and cool naturally to 115 degrees. Once cooled to 115 degrees, add two tablespoons of plan active yogurt [I used 2 T. of yogurt from my mom which originated from Stonyfield and has since been made using raw goat's milk] and mix. Pour out hot water from Yogurt Maker and pour in milk mixture.

Set aside in warmer part of home (near stove, on refrigerator) and wrap with a bath towel. The bath towel will help retain the warmth of the Yogurt Maker. [My mom recommended that I put it in the oven with oven light on for warmth.] Let it set for 9-10 hours until thick. Place into fridge.

Save two tablespoons near the end of this batch for your next one. This yogurt is delicious mixed with your favorite sweeteners, flavorings and fresh fruits.
*Ray/GoodPapa*- a question for you. Since I'm using raw goat's milk do I need to heat it to 180 degrees? If not, should I just heat to 115 degrees and then immediately add the starter yogurt and continue with directions? I don't want to unintentionally kill any of the good bacteria.

And for those of you who responded to my queries before, my friend's dd is doing very well. She found some probiotics capsules at the hfs and her dd is doing better than she has done in months and months. A real life-saver and my friend is wishing she'd known about it before. She plans to give the ped a real earful at her ds' upcoming well-checkup.


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## Carsonsmama (May 17, 2004)

Thank you Aquaduct!
A warming cupboard? That is just a cupboard that is warmer then the rest? Or is the hot water cylinder the hot water tank that heats water for the house....do I sound really stupid? I just happen to be a person that has to know exactly what I am doing, and KNOW I am doing it right before I get the nerve to try something!
What about setting it in the laundry room while I am doing laundry...gets warm in there...would that work?
Your right it doesn't sound that hard then.....I am going to have to try your method it sounds SO easy!
Thank you!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *busybusymomma*
Does anyone else make their yogurt using pottery? I use a Rowe Pottery Yogurt Maker and just made my first batch on Sunday night. It appears to have turned out.

*Ray/GoodPapa*- a question for you. Since I'm using raw goat's milk do I need to heat it to 180 degrees? If not, should I just heat to 115 degrees and then immediately add the starter yogurt and continue with directions? I don't want to unintentionally kill any of the good bacteria.

And for those of you who responded to my queries before, my friend's dd is doing very well. She found some probiotics capsules at the hfs and her dd is doing better than she has done in months and months. A real life-saver and my friend is wishing she'd known about it before. She plans to give the ped a real earful at her ds' upcoming well-checkup.









That pottery is gorgeous!









I use raw milk and only heat to 110F per Nourishing Traditions recipe... she suggests a double boiler.

Good news about your friends DD!







Probiotics are truly one of the great secrets of the universe.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You're welcome Carsonsmom. I live in New Zealand. Over here a warming cupboard is usually a cupboard placed over the hot water cylinder that heats all the water for the house. But if you can find a nother cupboard that is consistently warm, that will do.

To be sure, if you want to do it properly you ought to use raw goats or cows milk. Pasteurisation does do something negative to the milk, making it more indigestable. Yoghurt bacteria can't undo the damage completely. And stay right away from homogenised milk. The homogenisation process is bad news.

As to the bacteria, I've been reading this thread quite a bit, and suggest you do the same. It looks as though you ought to avoid bifidus bacteria. Lactobaccillus Acidophilus and L. Reuteri are the best.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
That pottery is gorgeous!









I use raw milk and only heat to 110F per Nourishing Traditions recipe... she suggests a double boiler.

Good news about your friends DD!







Probiotics are truly one of the great secrets of the universe.

Ah, okay... thanks for the tip! My mom just bought Nourishing Traditions two days ago, so I'll have to check out the yogurt recipe! My mom bought each of us one of the pottery yogurt makers last year (BTW all that pottery is fabulous, though expensive). She started using it this spring after her doe kidded, but I just used mine for the first time. It turned out, but I was afraid I'll be killing good bacteria by heating it that high. My difficulty is I really love the Stonyfield strawberry flavor in the qt container, not sure if I can get strawberry juice to flavor or not since I don't normally buy juice. I'd really like to avoid adding any sugar.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *busybusymomma*
My difficulty is I really love the Stonyfield strawberry flavor in the qt container, not sure if I can get strawberry juice to flavor or not since I don't normally buy juice. I'd really like to avoid adding any sugar.

Have fun reading NT. It's a fabulous book, really riveting...well I think it is! :LOL

I wonder if you could make a strawberry sauce and reduce it, then mix in w/ yogurt.

I make a sauce from frozen strawberries... use organic, regular strawberries have the nastiest and most pesticides of all fruits ex. grapes. Strain it to get rid of seeds. I normally don't cook it, but (just thinking out loud here) simmering gently would thicken it. A little lemon juice or top quality balsamic vinegar to finish. Frozen raspberries are good this way too (no vinegar, just lemon juice).








I need a snack now.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Thanks for the ideas Jane.







I'm heading up to Bloomington tomorrow so I can hit the ethnic and hfs so I'll be able to get some frozen berries (organic).

My mom bought some kefir grains cultured in raw goat's milk on eBay (this makes me :LOL, you really _can_ get anything on eBay) and they arrived yesterday so we bought started some kefir today. I have a finished batch chillin' in the fridge now so I'll try it out in the morning and I have another batch sitting in the oven since the A/C is on. I'm curious to see what the kefir is like, we bought some of the hfs once but I don't even remember what it was like.







:


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

holy moly, it's taken me 3 days, but i've gotten through this thread!!!







thanks for all the great info- i'm new to the probiotic journey & am 99% sure i've got an overgrowth of candida in my system ( i fit all the criteria







) I'm starting slowly- store bought kefir & supplements, but am getting motivated to try making my own yogurt







Thanks everyone!


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## Oldinos (Aug 26, 2005)

Hi Aquaduct,
I'm from Auckland and I try to get raw milk,preferably from goat or ewe,but couldn't get any .do you know a place?

For several months I'm feeding my little boy (nearly 2) a mixture of psyllium hulls from the health shop(soaked in warm/hot water),sometimes together with coconut flakes and carob powder,then blend with banana , off an on orange juice,fresh aloe vera, and then I cut pieces of fruit (papaya,mandarin,grapes,kiwi fruit)in. the mixture should be smooth,the psyllium hulls need enough liquid that they don't stick together. my son loves it (me ,too)and as we are raw eaters, it's a good option for us.(Dr. Vogel "the nature doctor" recommends P.H. for constipation/eliminating toxins and it is safe to take during pregnancy.) maybe someone wants to try it out.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

It is illegal in this country for a store to sell raw goats milk (and for that matter raw cows milk). Isn't that stupid? You can sell pasteurised milk that has all sorts of antibiotic traces in it, along with hormones no doubt, that can easily cause asthma attacks in susceptible children because it is so indigestible, but certified raw milk.....just don't go there.

But as it happens, I used to get raw goats milk from a certain store on the sly. They used to keep it out the back, just for me. A friend of yours Oldinos works there, so I think you know which one I mean.









Just ask her if they can arrange it.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

By the way, does anyone know which are the best foods to burn off candida in the body?

I believe the following are good: olive oil
garlic
oregano essential oil
coconut oil? (not sure about this one)

And what about seaweeds? Any other foods or oils


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## Oldinos (Aug 26, 2005)

Thanks, Aquaduct,my friend is looking herself for raw milk (cheese) and could get goats milk from "out of auckland",too far away for a day's trip. the store doesn't seem to be an option anymore. i actually found a ph.number ,but this is probably too far up north.
I'm myself fighting candida. frederic patenaude says, fruit is ok, as fruit sugar is different from refined sugar. any fat should be avoided (even avocado,nuts) as they slow down the elimination of the sugar from the blood and this is where the candida thrives on. but he says also,that garlic is highly toxic and kills everything.well, if it kills the candida,for me it's worth taking it. i read as well,that any mushrooms should be avoided as they are fungi-but who knows- when sugar isn't always sugar,maybe fungus isn't always fungus. everything is so contradictory...so i'm making my own decisions. now i'm having energy and ozone treatment 3x /week, share a colloidal silver/beck zapper with a friend and apart from raw food diet i take supplements to build up my immune system (which is apparently the basis for getting rid of the C.,not necessarily taking tablets etc) and detox. i'm thinking about taking probiotics .
my energy has already improved and the "veil" has lifted a bit,though still quite a way to go.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

That's great Oldinos. Candida is very hard to get rid of. You can't actually get rid of it completely as it is naturally occuring, but it can be controlled.
I just made my first batch of yoghurt, the first for a long time. It had about 13 different bacteria in it....lots of different types of lactobacillus. I got the starter from my neighbors who had a natural health supplement from Australia with all these bacteria in it. The only bad thing is it had bifidorum bacteria in it, which after reading on this thread may not be so good.

But my goat's milk yoghurt tasted so nice. It was made from pasteurised goat's milk...I wish it could be raw. Let me know if you can find a source of raw.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Oldinos & Aquaduct

http://www.realmilk.org has sources for raw milk around the world.

It might not just be candida, but also an imbalance in other bad bacteria in the intestines, competing against and reducing the amount of good bacteria. I've had great success on a no grain diet specifically designed to correct his called the Specific Carbohydrate Diet.

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.i..._the_diet2.htm
http://www.pecanbread.com/scdscience.html

Come join us in the Gut Healing Tribe


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes, the medium chain fatty acids in coconut oil have excellent anti fungal, anti bacterial and anti viral properties.

http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/index.htm
http://www.lauric.org/


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Thanks Jane S. That was very helpful of you.


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm sure I remember reading this already, but I haven't a clue where to look for it now. I'm considering taking an antibiotic (Flagyl) for persistent and recurrent bacterial vaginosis. My question is, should I continue to take probiotics while taking the antibiotic, or just start up again after I'm done with the antibiotic?

I have tried changing my diet, adding yogurt & kefir, hydrogen peroxide washes, and other remedies with no results. I also think dh needs to be treated. I'm open to other treatment ideas and success stories, too, please!

One more thing....I am also pregnant (another reason I need to lick this BV now since it can contribute to preterm labor). Is it okay to use yogurt vaginally during pregnancy? Would that be helpful for me in addition to the probiotics? Thanks so much!


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You ask whether it is safe to use yoghurt vaginally while pregnant. You should in fact be asking yourself a far more important question: is it safe to take flagyl while pregnant.

Flagyl is one of the most powerful drugs. It is no ordinary antibiotic. I know because I once took it, and it nearly gave me a nervous breakdown. It is very hard on the liver and has all sorts of side-effects. They (the hospital staff in Japan where I was working many years ago) gave it for amoebic dysentery which is very hard to kill. That's what I had it for, although it turned out I never had any amoeba, I just had a mild case of piles! So I took it for no reason, but it wiped me out.

For goodness sake, do some research into flagyl yourself and weigh it up. Especially if you have a baby in your body I would think thrice before popping that drug.

Oh, and the yoghurt has no side-effects and is completely safe. If I were you I would keep trying at the natural treatments. Try oregano oil and garlic. Also incredibly safe compared to flagyl!!!


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

Aquaduct, thank you for your response. I have done extensive research about metronidazole and its use during pregnancy. I am sorry that you had an adverse reaction to it in the past, and that it was poorly prescribed. I have also done research about bacterial vaginosis and its possible ill effects on pregnancy and newborns. I really want to get my vaginal flora into a state of equilibrium before I give birth to this baby. Since this has been an ongoing issue for some time now, and has not responded to the many treatments I have tried, I am feeling like I may need to go to "extreme" measures to get my body back in balance.

I am glad to hear that yogurt has no side effects. You also mention oregano oil and garlic....how would I use them? Take orally or otherwise? Thank you!


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Ilovelife,
Somewhere in all these pages is the story of goodpapa's wife having BV. He gave her yoghurt douches. If you can't find the post I would pm him. He is VERY helpful and generous with his wisdom.

Peace,


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks, moneca! I was able to find the post and see that they were using the yogurt during pg, too. I think I will go that route to see if it helps.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Actually I technically speaking didn't have any side-effects from taking flagyll. I never did have a nervous breakdown when on the 5 day course of flagyll. I simply felt like I was on the verge. Western medicine is very poor at picking up on mental effects. I have little doubt I was emotionally affected because of the drugs deletorious effects on the liver. The prescribing doctor hinted that many people who take flagyll don't last the full 5 days, I suspect because of the aforementioned affects. Good luck.

If you want to know how to use things like oregano oil you'll have to read the rest of this thread. I think it was on page 18 or thereabouts.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat*
CHECK THIS OUT!!!

Simple Home Candida Test:

Try this simple test to see if you have a candida yeast infection.
First thing in the morning, before you put ANYTHING in your mouth, get
a clear glass. Fill with water and work up a bit of saliva, then spit
it into the glass of water. Check the water every 15 minutes or so for
up to one hour. If you have a yeast infection, you will see strings
(like legs) traveling down into the water from the saliva floating on
the top, or "cloudy" saliva will sink to the bottom of the glass, or
cloudy specks will seem to be suspended in the water.

If there are no stings and the saliva is still floating after at least
one hour, you are probably yeast infection free. ThreeLac could then
be used to maintain good bowel flora and proper pH, and prevent a
yeast infection from coming back as we are always exposed to things
that may cause it to come back.

Most people fail the test. I have heard that over 80% of the
population has candida yeast infections. While using ThreeLac, you can
continue to test yourself. You will start to see fewer and fewer
strings hanging down.

Thank you so much for posting this.... I know, I'm a little late to the party...

I did this this morning (after months of using probiotics daily) and NOTHING... no strings, no flecks... NADA!! YAY!!!

I am going to have my dh do this the next time he is home... I'm hoping a VISUAL cue will encourage him to take probiotics daily... he has a continual case of athlete's foot and jock itch and so many other symptoms of a yeast/candida type thing going on... and insists on using OTC "remedies" instead of addressing the underlying issue. I hope this will show him what's going on!

Thank you!

Lo

P.S. And thank you to everyone on this thread.... I've learned SO much!


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

Just wanted to update....I've been doing the yogurt douches for 7 days now, including adding in more probiotic powder. Also taking probiotics orally (for months now, at least). Well, I am actually itchier now than ever. Argh! I am at my wits end. I don't know what to try next.

ETA: In case anyone is still reading here for info. Turns out my itch is due to excema & is all under control now....finally.


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## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

Hi,
I haven't had a chance to read thru all of the posts yet, so I don't know if this has been asked, if so-- I apologize.. Anyway, which yogurt maker is the best??? Thanks
Btw Goodpapa, I'm in Greensboro NC!!!!!!!!!


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## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

Hi,
Is anyone else freaked out about this? I recently started taking probiotics and this is the brand that I'm using. Any thoughts?
Thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
*Warning about Baby Jarro-dophilus*

Gut issues have been plaguing DS and I for a long time (despite consistenting taking probiotics and Elimination/Rotation Diets, but that's another story).

DS had been on Baby Jarro for almost a year. We did use others, but chiefly this one. It did help his stool firm up and digest food better. However, he still needed to be on a restricted diet and certain grains, all forms of sugar and other things would send him quickly back into mushy "stink-to-high-heaven stool" Land.

We had a stool analysis done after a year of the above interventions (diet, probiotics) and he was 4+ for Bifidus. NO Acidophilus. And 4+ for several potentially pathogenic bacterium: Citrobacter, Klebsiella, and Proteus mirabilis.

It wasn't until we started reading about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet that I learned that the author of said diet does NOT recommend bifidus b/c it has a tendancy to overgrow and encourage the development of pathogenic bacteria.









Since that's exactly what happened with us, I believe her. She only recommends acidophilus, bulgaricus, and thermophilus calling them "community minded" organisms. Also she notes that research has shown that a bifidus dominent gut beyond exclusive nursing period (first 6 mos of life) is correlated with celiac disease.









It is very frustrating that so little research is available in this area re: which is the best or even most beneficial probiotics.









DS is still most likely dairy intolerant, so he gets Kirkman Acidophilus until I get my non dairy yogurt making up to speed for him.

I'm doing terrifically on The Body Ecology Diet Kefir powder starter made with raw milk for my probiotic fix. Kefir has beneficial yeasts which the SCD author is not sure about but since I improved greatly on it, and is easy to make and preserve the other beneficial enzymes from the raw milk, it's staying for now.

If you want to read more about the SCD for healing the gut see:
www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info
www.pecanbread.com

and the "Healing the Gut Tribe":
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=320840


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

Jane,

We have been using baby jarro too for my now 11 month old. What brand do you recommend then?

Thanks!
Golden


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## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

DH bought me Bio-K Plus probiotics from Whole Foods after I had tummy problems for 6 months. It cleared it right up! It contains LB acidophilus and LB casei. I recently weaned my 2 1/2 year old dd, and lately she's been having runny poops. I decided to see if she would eat the Bio-K Plus. I'm so excited because this morning she ate a full serving straight from a spoon! That will make it so much easier to give her if I don't have to hide it in a smoothie. (DH can hardly stand the taste). I'm so proud of my little girl! (She also eats her DHA pills straight--just bites into them and likes the fishy taste!) I'll keep you posted on whether the probiotics or not!


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

I'd be very interested in finding out what brands of probiotics everyone is using and any other pertinent information.

I recently got back on probiotics after my dd (almost 8 months and exclusively bf) started pooping awful, stinky orange poos! She's never had the normal breastmilk poos. I also put her on probiotics.
I'm using Nature's Way, but it has the bifidus in it, and interestingly enough (look out, TMI here) I started having awful gas and poos that smelled like dd's! She's on the Nature's Way probiotic for children, which unfortunately has the bifidus too.
So, I'm looking for what to go to next. Anyone want to share?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I truly think homemade yogurt/kefir is the best probiotic there is. I took buckets of pills and never noticed as big a difference. Trust me, they are worth the extra effort to make.

That being said, if you need to take a pill, and probably your gut issues are not as bad as mine were: I'd recommend

Nature's Way Reuteri
http://www.iherb.com/reuteri.html

www.Culturelle.com which is L. Casei


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Too much probiotic at once can cause very loose stool with tummy upset.

So, if this happens, will it pass, or do you have to back off? Should you stop completely for awhile or just lower the doseage?








: I _may_ have given myself very, very loose stools. Ok, fine, watery.







:


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
So, if this happens, will it pass, or do you have to back off? Should you stop completely for awhile or just lower the doseage?

I would just lower the dose. You should be fine.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*







: I _may_ have given myself very, very loose stools. Ok, fine, watery.







:

Uh-oh.


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## scbegonias (Aug 15, 2003)

:

subbing as we're going down this road after dd's recent yeast inhabitants over the summer.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

This huge thread needs to be bumped up...

Newbies, it's worth taking the time to slog thru it.

It is one of the many little secrets of the universe you will find here at MDC. It will change your family's life.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

This thread rocks. It DID change my family's life.

I came here to post this to the thread.... with the new deadly "stomach bug" going around ("C. Diff" or clostridium difficile) one of the few things that will touch it is YOGURT or probiotics.









Yes another reason to eat your probiotics!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122901575.html


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## carrietorgc (Sep 16, 2003)

thanks for bumping jane! until i have my own kefir from breastmilk ready.....I am looking for a new probiotic - needs to be hypoallergenic though. ds tolerates the kirkman's but mine has bifidus in it. tech. since he is under 6 mo it sounds ok for him, but i dont' want to risk anything!


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## carrietorgc (Sep 16, 2003)

ok, kirkman has another hypo probiotic beyond the pro bio gold:

Kirkman Laboratories Pro-Culture Gold™ features the Lactobacillus rhamnosus probiotic strain

would this be of any help? I want dd (2.5 yrs) and dh on probiotics as well - they are both happy to take them.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Jane, why do you recommend the Nature's Way Reuteri over any others (if someone isn't eating homemade yogurt)? I want to give some advice to my mom on what to take. Thanks!

And for everyone... can we have a recap on which yogurt brands are best? Again... I think we all know that homemade is best, but for those who don't/can't bother with that.

I've used Stonyfield Farms and Brown Cow, both of which I like.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)




----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Jane, why do you recommend the Nature's Way Reuteri over any others (if someone isn't eating homemade yogurt)? I want to give some advice to my mom on what to take. Thanks!

And for everyone... can we have a recap on which yogurt brands are best? Again... I think we all know that homemade is best, but for those who don't/can't bother with that.

I've used Stonyfield Farms and Brown Cow, both of which I like.

Whoops I totally missed this! I recommend Reuteri b/c first, Goodpapa recommended it previously in this thread.







Secondly, I noticed significant help when me and my DS took it for leaky gut.

I don't think store bought yogurt is at all helpful, it's not strong enough to be worth eating for real probiotic benefits.

Here is good article on the bacteria count of homemade yogurt:

*The Great Yogurt and Kefir Conspiracy*
http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

(I do 24 hour culturing, it gets rid of all lactose and produces the most probiotic count).

*24 hr yogurt contains a 15 billion bacteria count per teaspoon*.

Btw the strongest capsule on the market I know of is 10 billion, www.Culturelle.com.

The National Yogurt Association's Live and Active Cultures seal only requires store yogurts to contain at least *100 million* active cultures per gram at time of production and at least 10 million at the end of shelf life. ( There are 5 grams in teaspoon.) Pretty paltry.

The exceptions could be the Dannon drinkable DanActive:
http://www.dannon.com/dn/dnstore/cgi..._ID_253247.htm
(but still the count is 10 billion for entire container)


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## niruprem (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi, I'm totally new here, but not new to kefir. I received my grains in November 2005 from the kefir making group and have been happily imbibing and experimenting with them. I am a huge fan.
I have a question for all you moms and pops out there. How old does an infant need to be to start on kefir? My neighbor's infant (2 months old) is having problems. He was born small, put in incubator, been sickly, now has problems with throat, swallowing. They are going to specialist soon, can kefir be used so young? Any advice on this would be appreciated.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

niruprem, welcome to MDC!









I would definitely not give an infant under 5-6 months of age anything other than breastmilk in terms of foods - sure the probiotics in kefir (and yogurt, etc.) are great but the foreign proteins and make-up of the food in terms of nutrients/sodium/fats-proteins are woefully inadequate at best and downright destructive/dangerous at worst. A small baby or a baby who is close to being FTT should have mama focusing (with help from an LC) on getting her milk supply up and getting him to nurse more/better - there is nothing like breastmilk to help with that, and in fact, he needs it even more than ever because he was born early.

They do make just the straight probiotic supplements, e.g., Baby JarroDophilus plus one of the ones with Reuteri in it, but to be honest, it sounds that he's got a lot more going on that gut problems. The things you described are pretty common sadly in low birthweight preemies and they may do tests for developmental delays, GERD (reflux), etc. And again, the primary focus should be how to get him more breastmilk (and the good hindmilk towards the end of a feeding). But no non-breastmilk foods until he is AT LEAST 5-6 months (or more) **corrected** age.

Hope that helps!


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## niruprem (Mar 19, 2006)

Periwinkle, thank you so much for the welcome and the quick response.
What you say makes incredible sense, though I don't understand what close to being FTT means.
This baby was not born premie but is small....was home from the hospital within a week. So maybe it is the mom who is in need of the kefir?
Sorry for my ignorance here, my mothering has come to children already grown!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh sorry. FTT=failure to thrive.

I think the kefir couldn't hurt (for the mother only) but again, it sounds like this poor baby has more going on than a poorly colonized gut, kwim? The real focus should be on upping his breastmilk consumption while trying to rule out physiological problems (like GERD). It is also important not to give the mother the message that there is something inadequate with her milk, i.e., by saying she should supplement her diet with something to improve her milk (kefir, Vitamins, etc.), which could make her consider some of those "hypoallergenic" or easy-to-digest







formulas on the market now (e.g., Alimentum, Nutramigen, Good Start). The only thing I am thinking, especially if he does have reflux (GERD), is that is could be a dairy sensitivity (or other food sensitivity) in which case she should be focused on continuing to breastfeed exclusively well into the 6th month (corrected) and I might even tack a month or two (at least) onto that before introducing ANY solids (even and especially baby cereal), and should do an elimination diet to pinpoint the culprit foods in her diet.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

While I agree with Periwinkle that you don't want to do anything to get this mom to consider stopping to breastfeed this child, I expect her nutritional status is woefully inadequate and improvements in her own diet would help her milk and help her baby. Kefir would certainly be helpful, particularly raw milk kefir if it's available. Visit the nutrition and immunology thread in the vax forum for lots of reading on issues like these.

And keep in mind that my comments are coming from a mom whose nutritional status was woefully inadequate.


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## niruprem (Mar 19, 2006)

Periwinkle said:


> Oh sorry. FTT=failure to thrive.
> WOW, that's heavy. But this baby looks so delicate,...that might be the most apt description. The mom works for me, so the particulars are not clear/ I think you hit it on score with the <more going on than a poorly colonized gut?>
> KWIM ? definition please?
> And not to give the wrong message of inadequacy///I hear you,,, it's not about kefir. Thank you both.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I'm sorry. I just use these phrases almost without thinking anymore.









KWIM= know what I mean?


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## apple_dumpling (Oct 20, 2004)

Hello everyone,

I have recently found this thread and have a few questions. I would like to start dd on some probiotics. For a few months now she has been having runny poops (only one or two a day, but not firm at all) and I think perhaps she has some gut problems.

I was BF but had to stop due to medicines for RA... making my own yogurt is really out of the question right now. Some days I can hardly get out of bed, even cooking dinner is tough... and couple that with the fact that dd does not like yogurt. I'd really like to supplement her. What is the best out there?

DD is 13 months and doesn't have a great diet to begin with. Any help would be appreciated!


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## *Jessica* (Jun 10, 2004)

I feel like I've been reading this thread for hours and I still don't know what kind of starter I should use to make my own yogurt! LOL What brands of starter do you recommend and where can I buy it if my store (Wegman's) doesn't carry it?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Jessica,

You can use any storebought yogurt with natural cultures to start a homemade batch. To make it stronger, culture longer than the recommended 4 hours, up to 24 hrs. to elminate all lactose and get a concentration of 15 billion bacterial count per teaspoon.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apple_dumpling*
Hello everyone,

I have recently found this thread and have a few questions. I would like to start dd on some probiotics. For a few months now she has been having runny poops (only one or two a day, but not firm at all) and I think perhaps she has some gut problems.

I was BF but had to stop due to medicines for RA... making my own yogurt is really out of the question right now. Some days I can hardly get out of bed, even cooking dinner is tough... and couple that with the fact that dd does not like yogurt. I'd really like to supplement her. What is the best out there?

DD is 13 months and doesn't have a great diet to begin with. Any help would be appreciated!

Sorry we all missed this! How are you both doing now?

Have you looked into enzymes for RA? specifically high proteases taken between meals.

Culturelle and Nature's Way Reuteri are good probiotic capsules IMO.


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## Abbie Nermal (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
Jessica,

You can use any storebought yogurt with natural cultures to start a homemade batch. To make it stronger, culture longer than the recommended 4 hours, up to 24 hrs. to elminate all lactose and get a concentration of 15 billion bacterial count per teaspoon.

In the wonderful world of false advertising, aka the USA, you need to buy yogurt that states clearly "Live ACTIVE" cultures.

Technically any yogurt can put 'live' somewhere on the container because it *is* live cultures doing the work of making the yogurt, but then they grow old and get abused in handling and some added 'stuff', and die off by the millionz.

It is very important that it states "active" cultures. Manufacturers are supposed to have a minimum number make it to the store shelf (or cooler) still alive, but barely counts.

Typical store yogurt is not 'alive' but dying. Sorry, but it's true.

If possible, try to buy good organic active yogurt. You may pay more for it, but remember that it will be 'seeding' your own supply. The better start it has had, the livelier it is when you rush it home, the better your own yogurt will be and the longer you will be able to cutlivate your own from that initial batch.

btw, some starters, though they may get treated properly and fed regularly to continually make new batches, always reserving from the 'new' for the next batch, may still peter out over time and use.

Sad, but true.

Here's a cheerful addition to making your own yogurt - use a meticulously cleaned and sanitary cheese cloth, line a strainer, pour your yogurt into it, fold the edges all over the top and then weight it down with a small plate and can. Set in the refrigerator for a few hours.

Now you have a wonderful soft raw cheese that is very healthful. Makes excellent dips, cheese balls, snacks, spread for crackers, celery sticks, etc. Somewhat like cream cheese. The longer you 'press' it, the firmer it will be. But it won't get to be 'hard' cheese without a more serious commitment, so do enjoy it rather soon after creating.

We even enjoy it in our home made burrito wraps.

Sorry to cut in so late in the thread. The site often frustrates me with logging me out in the middle of a thread or post attempt even though I have it set to remember me and I have my security software set to allow the site.

Such is life.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Have you read this thread?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)




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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

does anyone know where kefir grains came from originally? i've looked at dom's kefir site but can't find anything there about origin of the grains themselves...


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

I did a search and found this site, which talks about where kefir grains come from.


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## Vaquitita (Mar 2, 2006)

subbing


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

i guess i wasn't specific enough... i was wondering how the kefir grain came to be... why hasn't it been possible to re-create one?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluets*
i guess i wasn't specific enough... i was wondering how the kefir grain came to be... why hasn't it been possible to re-create one?

I found a lead on this issue and I'll post if I can figure it out. It looks like, in fact, God may not have handed these down from Heaven.


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## 98741 (May 17, 2006)

i'm really sorry, you guys must be sick of answering yogurt questions! BUT i have one anyway!







i'm not sure what went wrong please tell me. i'm thinking that possibly my probiotics may not be good.

I heated whole, organic, local milk to 185F, cooled it to 120F and added 4 caps (powder from) of probiotic (refridgerated, name brand I can't remember right now, supposedly active living culture) and 3 caps of a store brand kind. I didn't have any yogurt but was excited to try and read that yogurt wasn't neccesary when adding powder probiotics. So I added that and gently mixed it in a thermos. I placed it in a warm place overnight (about 8 hours) and when I checked it this AM it was still liquid but the temp was good (98F). Did I do something wrong or did I get ripped off on my probiotics? All help is GREATLY appreciated!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

118 degrees starting killing live bacteria so perhaps too hot.

How much milk? Maybe not enough to get it going.

What sort of bacterial strains? Only certain strains will cause the casein protein micelles to gel and create a thick texture. Did it taste different/more tart? That way you can tell if you have "acidophilus" milk, essentially a cultured milk drink with live probiotics, but not the strains that will gel.


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## 98741 (May 17, 2006)

Jane, Thank you so much for your reply, I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I didin't realize 118 was the point, I was thinking I had read higher, that could certainly have been the problem. I have tried again and the yogurt from today looks very promising although I haven't tasted it.

The probiotics I'm using are UAS Labs DDS-100 Lactobacillus acidophilus 1g (says over 2 billion active at manufacture) and FOS 50mg. Also a Proprietary Blend of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Bilfidobacterium Bifdum, and Streptococcus Thermpohilus and FOS is listed as an other ingredient.

This time I used 1Qt whole, organic, non homoginized milk, heated to 185 and cooled to 112. I added 3 caps of the Blend and 4 of the DDS as well as 2 TBS of Dannon Plain Yogurt. I put it in a Thermos and sat it outside all day (12 hours). It was hot here so I'm hoping not too hot. Anyway, it had a nice creamy smell and was mostly pourable but thick.

I am wondering how it should taste in comparison to the store bought Dannon. Also the middle batch I did was not as thick as this but I tried it and it was like poorly dissolved chalk. NASTY! I couldn't even swollow. This one appeared to have a bit of grainyness but not as bad. Is that just the consistancy of homemade yogurt? Is there a way to make it creamy? I'm big on texture and I don't think I can handle it. Will another batch from this yogurt be better? THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for you help! I am very happy to have found this thread and hope to be well on my way to healthier living with yogurt!!


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## EBG (May 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahn4639*
Jane, Thank you so much for your reply, I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I didin't realize 118 was the point, I was thinking I had read higher, that could certainly have been the problem. I have tried again and the yogurt from today looks very promising although I haven't tasted it.

The probiotics I'm using are UAS Labs DDS-100 Lactobacillus acidophilus 1g (says over 2 billion active at manufacture) and FOS 50mg. Also a Proprietary Blend of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Bilfidobacterium Bifdum, and Streptococcus Thermpohilus and FOS is listed as an other ingredient.

This time I used 1Qt whole, organic, non homoginized milk, heated to 185 and cooled to 112. I added 3 caps of the Blend and 4 of the DDS as well as 2 TBS of Dannon Plain Yogurt. I put it in a Thermos and sat it outside all day (12 hours). It was hot here so I'm hoping not too hot. Anyway, it had a nice creamy smell and was mostly pourable but thick.

I am wondering how it should taste in comparison to the store bought Dannon. Also the middle batch I did was not as thick as this but I tried it and it was like poorly dissolved chalk. NASTY! I couldn't even swollow. This one appeared to have a bit of grainyness but not as bad. Is that just the consistancy of homemade yogurt? Is there a way to make it creamy? I'm big on texture and I don't think I can handle it. Will another batch from this yogurt be better? THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for you help! I am very happy to have found this thread and hope to be well on my way to healthier living with yogurt!!

You need l. bulgaricus and s. thermophilus in addition to the acidophilus to make yogurt. These are the guys that make yogurt yogurty.
Dannon has these but I'm not sure how much... a lot of the mamas use it, it's good. I use either Dannon Plain, or Erivan or Yogourmet free-ze dried starter which is the best. If you ferment it longer, 24 hours or longer, it'll be more tart and thicker. I use half-and half which makes it less tart and pretty thick. Yumm.


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## 98741 (May 17, 2006)

Thank you EBG! this yogurt turned out pretty good but I think I'll try the half and half next time, good idea. I think I'll add more Dannon and some of this yogurt as my starter for the next batch.

How do you all eat your yogurt? Do you eat it plain? I just can't, not yet anyway I feel like I'm eating butter and sour cream or something. I've been making smoothies with strawberries and a small bit of sugar. I know the whole thing with yeast and sugar and I'm hoping to develop more of a taste quickly so I can drop the sugar. Is artificial sweetener any better? I know they have a whole set of issues on their own though! So what do you guys do? Do you just add fruit? Plain? Is there something else I can do? Thank you!


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Sarah, you can try honey or agave nectar or some plain fruit concentrates like cherry. I can't do it plain either.


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## EBG (May 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahn4639*
Thank you EBG! this yogurt turned out pretty good but I think I'll try the half and half next time, good idea. I think I'll add more Dannon and some of this yogurt as my starter for the next batch.

How do you all eat your yogurt? Do you eat it plain? I just can't, not yet anyway I feel like I'm eating butter and sour cream or something. I've been making smoothies with strawberries and a small bit of sugar. I know the whole thing with yeast and sugar and I'm hoping to develop more of a taste quickly so I can drop the sugar. Is artificial sweetener any better? I know they have a whole set of issues on their own though! So what do you guys do? Do you just add fruit? Plain? Is there something else I can do? Thank you!

I like it plain but I can also eat butter and sour cream straight, too. It's not as sour from half and half. We also mix it with blueberries, you can add mashed bananas as they are sweet plus they are loaded with enzymes. So are mangos, papayas and pinapples. Or raw honey.
Smoothies are great. Just put more friut in it and cut the sugar.

You can also make your own cream cheese and whey. Just put a clean kitchen towel in a colander over a bowl, fill it with yogurt and let it sit on the counter for several hours until no more liquid is dripping. Then you have cheese which is really yummy. You can use it as a spread, eat it with fruit or straight. The whey you can use for soaking grains and legumes or drink it diluted with water. Whey is where the bacteria are.


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## Vaquitita (Mar 2, 2006)

OK, I have a yogurt question.

I made some raw milk yogurt using jarrow capsules (per goodpapa's suggestions) the yogurt came out really runny, but i ate it anyway. i made a second batch using that yogurt as a starter and when it was done i noticed a yeasty smell. this was late last night, so i just tossed it in the fridge and haven't checked it today. what do you think? if it still smells yeasty should i toss it? what am i doing wrong? my raw milk yogurt keeps coming out about half yogurt and half whey -which i stir back in and then i have weird runny yogurt with clumps of thicker yogurt in it. i've been eating it anyway, but i'd really like some nice thick creamy yogurt. do you think my salton getting too hot could be effecting things?


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## EBG (May 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vaquitita*
OK, I have a yogurt question.

I made some raw milk yogurt using jarrow capsules (per goodpapa's suggestions) the yogurt came out really runny, but i ate it anyway. i made a second batch using that yogurt as a starter and when it was done i noticed a yeasty smell. this was late last night, so i just tossed it in the fridge and haven't checked it today. what do you think? if it still smells yeasty should i toss it? what am i doing wrong? my raw milk yogurt keeps coming out about half yogurt and half whey -which i stir back in and then i have weird runny yogurt with clumps of thicker yogurt in it. i've been eating it anyway, but i'd really like some nice thick creamy yogurt. do you think my salton getting too hot could be effecting things?

What's in the jarrow capsules? If it's a supplement it probably won't have the coagulating bacteria needed for thickness. I wouldn't use the same batch for a starter either. As I said before, half anf half makes creamier yogurt. If you're into raw dairy, try half raw milk and half raw cream. I don't think the Salton gets too hot, I'm using one. My yogurt consistency depends on what kind of milk and starter I use. It comes out more runny with whole milk than half and half. Also, the yogourmet starter works great - nice and even, pretty firm, while some store-bought yogurts make the whey separate for some reason. So I prefer using the yogourmet starter as it has always worked great.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Q: when culturing L. reuteri, do you mix it with the other probiotics, or do it by itself?


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## Vaquitita (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EBG*
What's in the jarrow capsules? If it's a supplement it probably won't have the coagulating bacteria needed for thickness. I wouldn't use the same batch for a starter either. As I said before, half anf half makes creamier yogurt. If you're into raw dairy, try half raw milk and half raw cream. I don't think the Salton gets too hot, I'm using one. My yogurt consistency depends on what kind of milk and starter I use. It comes out more runny with whole milk than half and half. Also, the yogourmet starter works great - nice and even, pretty firm, while some store-bought yogurts make the whey separate for some reason. So I prefer using the yogourmet starter as it has always worked great.

why can't i use my old batch for starter? it doesn't seem like i should have to use new starter everytime.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

JaneS asked me to post a recipe for cabbage rejuvelac (fermented cabbage juice). It's supposed to be a great source of acidophilus (sp?). If you like kimchi or sauerkraut you will probably like it...unfortunately I don't like either so I think it tastes nasty, but I can get it down mixed with a little tomato juice.

First batch:
3 c. cabbage, coarsely chopped
1 3/4 c. filtered/spring water

Put cabbage & water in blender. Blend on high for 30 seconds. Pour mixture into covered mason jar and let sit at room temperature for 3 days. Strain off cabbage and reserve 1/4 of liquid for next batch. Refrigerate remaining liquid and throw out any that remains after 24 hours.

Subsequent batches:
3 c. cabbage, coarsely chopped
1 1/2 c. filtered/spring water

Follow instruction for original batch but add 1/4 c. of previous batch to mason jar with blender mixture. Shake to combine. Leave at room temperature for 24 hours.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Do you think it would work with distilled water?


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

The water can't have chlorine in it, so if distilled water is chlorine-free I think it would work fine.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)




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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Okay, I have given up on yogurt for a while because I couldn't get it to set, even using the Yogurtmet starter. And now that we are only buying raw milk (and it's quite costly out here in CA), I'm afraid to waste anymore. But we are having kefir daily (homemade). I thought I read somewhere though that kefir has almost all the good stuff you need, but it's lacking something or another that is present in yogurt. Does this sound familiar to anyone? If so, then I guess I could start making yogurt again. Also, someone posted above about using L.Reuteri as part of the starter. If I used that (I think I used to but can't remember), do I need to use it in conjunction with another probiotic? And, does anyone have a full proof recipe using, say, 1 quart of raw milk and powdered probiotics? Or, I guess, using 1 quart of raw milk, yogurmet, and possibly some added L. Reuteir?

And ... about raw milk ... doesn't it already contain probiotics? Couldn't you just put it straight in the yogurt maker and make *yogurt* with it without adding any yogurt powder stuff? And what's clabbered milk? And does that mean it has even more probiotics in it? Isn't soured raw milk loaded with probiotics? Anyway of finding out which strains? Phew ... been wondering all that for a while!


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

I bought a probiotic called Primadophilus Reuteri for dd today w/l.reuteri in it (that's what I was looking for) and it also has this:

Quote:

1) *L. Rhamnosus* R049 - This strain is superior in many ways: In the report of the Taxonomic Subcommittee, L. rhamnosus shows the greatest ability of all lactobacteria to survive stomach and bile acids next to L. plantarum. It can withstand 30-40% bile acids and provides over 10 times the survivability of L acidophilus. L. rhamnosus is also capable of manganese-catalyzed scavenging of superoxide. Other characteristics of L. rhamnosus as compared to L. acidophilus are:

8-10 times as prolific
Ferments 23 carbohydrates (over twice as many as DDS-1 and NCFM)
Greater survival to freeze-drying process (75-80% vs. 30-35%)
Produces L+ lactic acid, which is the natural form in human metabolism and biologically superior to the DL lactic acid produced by L. acidophilus
Good resistance to antibiotics
Shows superior results in controlling diarrhea
Longer shelf life
For some 50 years, many products sold as "acidophilus" were actually rhamnosus. This error was not discovered until new methods of strain and species identification were developed. Rhamnosus was previously classified as a subspecies of L. casei, but has been reclassified as a separate species due to its own unique genetic makeup. Previous studies citing "L. casei" were often subspecies rhamnosus (for example, see Pardigon G. et al. "Systemic augmentation of the immune response in mice feeding fermented milks with Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus acidophilus" Immunology 63:17-23, 1988.)
Actually dh bought it for us and I noticed this when he got home. I gave her 1/2 capsule tonight. I'm hoping it'll improve her poops. Oh, wait a minute . . . I'm not on the Healing the Gut thread . . . can I still mention poops?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
Okay, I have given up on yogurt for a while because I couldn't get it to set, even using the Yogurtmet starter. And now that we are only buying raw milk (and it's quite costly out here in CA), I'm afraid to waste anymore... (snip)

And ... about raw milk ... doesn't it already contain probiotics? Couldn't you just put it straight in the yogurt maker and make *yogurt* with it without adding any yogurt powder stuff? And what's clabbered milk? And does that mean it has even more probiotics in it? Isn't soured raw milk loaded with probiotics? Anyway of finding out which strains? Phew ... been wondering all that for a while!









Raw milk yogurt will not set as firm as pasteurized milk. It has to do with the casein protein matrix ... raw milk proteins will not clump together and gel up in the same way. I just drink mine.

Yes, raw milk contains probiotics but not of the kind that produces yogurt. You need specific strains like bulgaricus and thermophilus for the texture. That is why Goodpapa's L. Reuteri culture doesn't gel. Yes sour milk has more probiotics and NT recommends it. I however, cannot stand the taste!


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## MommyofPunkiePie (Mar 24, 2005)

:


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
I bought a probiotic called Primadophilus Reuteri for dd today w/l.reuteri in it (that's what I was looking for) and it also has this:

Actually dh bought it for us and I noticed this when he got home. I gave her 1/2 capsule tonight. I'm hoping it'll improve her poops. Oh, wait a minute . . . I'm not on the Healing the Gut thread . . . can I still mention poops?









I just got the same stuff yesterday for all my boys.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
I bought a probiotic called Primadophilus Reuteri for dd today w/l.reuteri in it (that's what I was looking for) and it also has this:

Actually dh bought it for us and I noticed this when he got home. I gave her 1/2 capsule tonight. I'm hoping it'll improve her poops. Oh, wait a minute . . . I'm not on the Healing the Gut thread . . . can I still mention poops?









DS is responding very well to this probiotic (the Primadophilus Reuteri in capsules). Again. He used to be on it a year ago, due to info. in this thread.









He's getting it several times/day b/c I've cultured in with his regular 24 hr. yogurt starter.

Firms up diarrhea in record time.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
First batch:
3 c. cabbage, coarsely chopped
1 3/4 c. filtered/spring water

Put cabbage & water in blender. Blend on high for 30 seconds. Pour mixture into covered mason jar and let sit at room temperature for 3 days. Strain off cabbage and reserve 1/4 of liquid for next batch. Refrigerate remaining liquid and throw out any that remains after 24 hours.

Subsequent batches:
3 c. cabbage, coarsely chopped
1 1/2 c. filtered/spring water

Follow instruction for original batch but add 1/4 c. of previous batch to mason jar with blender mixture. Shake to combine. Leave at room temperature for 24 hours.

Why on earth does it say to throw out after 24 hrs... kimchi and sauerkraut lasts forever? I love drinking the water from our sauerkraut, I'm gonna make this as soon as our local organic farm starts offering their cabbage for sale. I was hoping to make a big batch of this Rejevelac and store it.

Also I think the major good guy in cabbage ferments is L. Plantarum.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
DS is responding very well to this probiotic (the Primadophilus Reuteri in capsules). Again. He used to be on it a year ago, due to info. in this thread.









He's getting it several times/day b/c I've cultured in with his regular 24 hr. yogurt starter.

Firms up diarrhea in record time.









I'm gonna try this in my next batch of yogurt. Guess it can't hurt dd2. I have the capsules too. How much do you use per gallon of milk?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

8 per gallon in addition to regular starter but that is just what I feel like adding, not based on anything!


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## lllmomma (Sep 1, 2003)

I need recommendations for a good probiotic that is dairy free (and all the other typical allergens). DD can' tolerate any dairy, even raw goat. There's also no way she will eat fermented cabbage


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Natren makes completely dairy free probiotics ... they are grown on chickpeas I think. Also Garden of Life Primal Defense powder.


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## lllmomma (Sep 1, 2003)

Thanks Jane! You wouldn't happen to know if the Primal Defense is Gluten-free as well? I thought I had looked at it and couldn't have it for some reason...hmm.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

Metagenics (http://www.metagenics.com) has a bunch of probiotics, some of which are dairy-free. I use the Ultra Flora Plus DF capsules that contain FOS. They appear to have a bifidus only product and an acidophilus only product - hard to tell if those contain gluten or not (perhaps this would merit a phone call to them). They also seem to have some powdered products and some capsule products - each product seems to have a regular version and a dairy free (DF) version. You can buy them locally at Bloomington Chiropractic Clinic (on E 3rd St. across from the Sprint Store) or you can buy them online. I found the best price at evitalhealth.com - chiropractors take long lunch hours here so I could never stop by during my lunch break!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lllmomma*
Thanks Jane! You wouldn't happen to know if the Primal Defense is Gluten-free as well? I thought I had looked at it and couldn't have it for some reason...hmm.

Probably that's the reason, I think it's possible there are traces in the grasses.


----------



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
Why on earth does it say to throw out after 24 hrs... kimchi and sauerkraut lasts forever? I love drinking the water from our sauerkraut, I'm gonna make this as soon as our local organic farm starts offering their cabbage for sale. I was hoping to make a big batch of this Rejevelac and store it.

Also I think the major good guy in cabbage ferments is L. Plantarum.

I think because it doesn't have any salt it in to preserve it. I just chop up a week's worth of cabbage at a time and then it takes about a minute a day to make a new batch.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

now this is one study in which i would NOT have wanted to be a researcher:

Survival of yogurt bacteria in the human gut.
Appl Environ Microbiol. 2006 Jul;72(7):5113-7.

Elli M, Callegari ML, Ferrari S, Bessi E, Cattivelli D, Soldi S, Morelli L, Goupil Feuillerat N, Antoine JM.

Whether Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus can be recovered after passage through the human gut was tested by feeding 20 healthy volunteers commercial yogurt. Yogurt bacteria were found in human feces, suggesting that they can survive transit in the gastrointestinal tract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
I think because it doesn't have any salt it in to preserve it. I just chop up a week's worth of cabbage at a time and then it takes about a minute a day to make a new batch.

I'm still confused b/c that is what the good bacteria is supposed to do... the most ancient form of food preservation is lactofermentation. Lactic acid bacteria prevent putrefactive bacteria from growing. The salt added at beginning of recipes is just to preseve for a short time until the lactobacillus can grow (from NT). I think the traditional recipe for Kimchi calls for it to be buried in ground for months?


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
I'm still confused b/c that is what the good bacteria is supposed to do... the most ancient form of food preservation is lactofermentation. Lactic acid bacteria prevent putrefactive bacteria from growing. The salt added at beginning of recipes is just to preseve for a short time until the lactobacillus can grow (from NT). I think the traditional recipe for Kimchi calls for it to be buried in ground for months?

I don't know then. I guess you could just keep it in the fridge and make sure it smells okay before you drink it


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

:


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## sparkletruck (Dec 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
I'm still confused b/c that is what the good bacteria is supposed to do... the most ancient form of food preservation is lactofermentation. Lactic acid bacteria prevent putrefactive bacteria from growing. The salt added at beginning of recipes is just to preseve for a short time until the lactobacillus can grow (from NT). I think the traditional recipe for Kimchi calls for it to be buried in ground for months?

There is NO SALT in the rejuvelac though. Since reading Wild fermentation this week, Im now wondering why not? Couldnt we be potentially culturing the bad guys too without salt?


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

subbing. I am searching for the 'recipie' to make home-made yogurt and other ways to work on naturally reducing my dd's autism & sensory issues but the kids are fighting . back later


----------



## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lllmomma*
I need recommendations for a good probiotic that is dairy free (and all the other typical allergens). DD can' tolerate any dairy, even raw goat. There's also no way she will eat fermented cabbage









someone else on another forum recommended this brand, which is a starter, so you don't have to use starter + supplement. it's both dairy and gluten free:

http://www.giprohealth.com/Merchant2...ode=probiotics

so now my question is, are the strains in this brand sufficient or should i still go out and get a supplement to add to the yogurt? the strains in this one are:
l. casei
s. thermophilus
l. bulgaricus

i too read this entire thread and i still don't know what to buy ! my 2 year old dd has eczema and we're on an elimination diet. i'm making coconut milk yogurt for her. she and i both have yeast imbalance as well.

TIA!


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Hi guys. So I've finally got my Salton yogurt maker and am ready to use it. I will this time, but I just want to ask... is it actually necessary to scalt the milk beforehand, as per the directions?

http://www.healthgoods.com/Shopping/...gurt_Maker.asp

Also, is there a more crunchy version of making yogurt with the Salton?

Any information on really good yogurt starters available in Canada?

ETA: More questions! Ah, I just discovered that one random plastic part is the "built in stirring spoon." Any tips on how to use that? Can anyone tell me what the numbers on top of the cover are for?

TIA!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes you need to scald if you are using pasteurized milk. It is not sterile. With raw milk you don't, just heat to 100 degrees then add starter. Raw milk has macrophages and probiotics that inhibit harmful bacteria. By not heating about 100 - 110 you preserve these beneficial elements and also digestive enzymes too.

Crunchy version meaning what? Using raw milk? There are more posts about alternative yogurt making in Traditional Foods forum.

Yogourmet yogurt starter packets are available in Canada, I think they are a Canadian co. I've used them a lot, works great.

If you stir the yogurt, it will be thinner, more drinkable. If you leave alone and refrigerate for 8 hours after making, it will be more solidified. What number are you referring to?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motocita*
so now my question is, are the strains in this brand sufficient or should i still go out and get a supplement to add to the yogurt? the strains in this one are:
l. casei
s. thermophilus
l. bulgaricus

i too read this entire thread and i still don't know what to buy ! my 2 year old dd has eczema and we're on an elimination diet. i'm making coconut milk yogurt for her. she and i both have yeast imbalance as well.

TIA!

Sufficient for healing? It depends on diet composition, who you talk to, etc. etc. Its really hard to say it's so individual.

Lactobacillus actually comprises a very tiny amount of the beneficial bacteria in our bodies, like 1%! So right now I'm on a kefir kick (again) for the beneficial yeasts. You can get live grains or the Body Ecology kefir powder, which is dairy free.

More info at Dom's Kefir In-site:

http://www.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaitnbugsmom*
subbing. I am searching for the 'recipie' to make home-made yogurt and other ways to work on naturally reducing my dd's autism & sensory issues but the kids are fighting . back later

See here:

The SCD diet might be helpful: http://www.pecanbread.com/BTVCautismchapter.html

More on goat yogurt and how to make at that site. Goat is more recommended for ASD kids b/c the proteins are smaller and easier to digest.

Read Karen DeFelice's book on Enzymes for Autism www.enzymestuff.com


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saskiasmom*
There is NO SALT in the rejuvelac though. Since reading Wild fermentation this week, Im now wondering why not? Couldnt we be potentially culturing the bad guys too without salt?

My turn to








I think it depends on the strength of your organic produce. What does Wild Fermentation say about that? Yeasts survive too? but I thought they were crowded out by the lactobacillus?


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
Crunchy version meaning what?

I should have clarified--I was just inquiring to see if there was one, for example I get the impression that a lot of people don't use powdered milk, maybe having it sit longer instead.

Quote:

What number are you referring to?
On the top of my salton there are numbers, 1 to 10 if I remember correctly. And there's a sort of dial you can move around to select the numbers, But it's just on the cover and I can't discern whether it actually has a use.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinxie*
On the top of my salton there are numbers, 1 to 10 if I remember correctly. And there's a sort of dial you can move around to select the numbers, But it's just on the cover and I can't discern whether it actually has a use.

It goes to 12, and it is for indicating when your yogurt is done. As in what hour to take it out.


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## sparkletruck (Dec 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
My turn to








I think it depends on the strength of your organic produce. What does Wild Fermentation say about that? Yeasts survive too? but I thought they were crowded out by the lactobacillus?

Ill have to look. What I remember is that all bugs start out on equal footing, but the salt inhibts the bad bugs enough so the good ones can get a lead, and once they do they proliferate and take over. So Im thinking, without the salt, you're culturing good and bad. Ill look in wild fermentation ... I sure love the rejuvelac though, its like tangy lemonade. My dd wants it too, so now I need to make bigger batches. Dh is grossed out


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I don't use powdered milk, I usually use raw goat's milk. And have it sit at least 24 hours, preferably 36. Gets nice and tart. Tastes kinda lemony. And ds loves it!


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
See here:

The SCD diet might be helpful: http://www.pecanbread.com/BTVCautismchapter.html

More on goat yogurt and how to make at that site. Goat is more recommended for ASD kids b/c the proteins are smaller and easier to digest.

Read Karen DeFelice's book on Enzymes for Autism www.enzymestuff.com

thanks.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yogourmet yogurt starter packets are available in Canada, I think they are a Canadian co.

Ooh, thank you. Hrm... does anyone have experience on whether it's possible to use their extra-probiotic in a Salton, although they say it must be heated very gradually?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine* 
It goes to 12, and it is for indicating when your yogurt is done. As in what hour to take it out.

That's what I was thinking... so it's more like a note to yourself for how long you want the yogurt in for?

The yogurt came out really thick, creamy, and even a little sweet. Quite good! Almost a little too rich, to my surprise. I was using "cereal cream." (Which I think is just regular cream marketed in bigger bottles for cereals.) At this rate, not sure I'd need to drain the yogurt at all!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
I don't use powdered milk, I usually use raw goat's milk. And have it sit at least 24 hours, preferably 36. Gets nice and tart. Tastes kinda lemony. And ds loves it!

I would _love_ to use goat's milk, but DH can't stand it. (It's our only major incompatibility.) Instantly makes any meal gourmet







although admittedly I only like it with savory things.


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## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

Anyone have a source for dairy free l. reuteri? I've talked to several makers of the dairy based ones and they were no help.

TIA!


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## bunnybartlett (Aug 27, 2002)

off and on and while you have lost me on a lot of the subjects I have begun supplementing our families diet with a powdered probiotic made by Megagenic called ultra-flora plus.my question to you folks is this....we also take a vit c supp in the form of ascorbic acid powder.I mix this in juice or water.Can the probiotics be mixed with juice? and can they be mixed together or will one ruin the effects of the other??

thanks


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## crystalkr (Jun 29, 2005)

OK - so my head is swirling and I'm trying to get it sorted out







Basically, my goals are to find the best quality probiotic for the least cost. My ds has several (now) mild food allergies/intollerances, my dh is lactose intollerant, and as for me, I'm 11 weeks pg and would like to try to prevent the reflux/food issues that my first ds went through. So, my questions:

1. Am I correct in thinking that the probiotics found in yogurt you make at home is better both in quality and in numbers than a store bought supplement?

2. If I do start making the yogurt - should I use a starter that has multiple strains in it, like the Yogourmet CBA Probiotic Yogurt Starter http://yogurtmakers.livingright.com/...t-Starter.html

3. How much yogurt would me and/or my 2 yo need to have daily?

Am I on the right track??? Thanks in advance!!

Crystal


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## webjefita (Aug 16, 2003)

So I read 10 or 20 pages of the thread and got inspired to make yogurt yesterday. I used whole organic milk and Stoneyfield farm organic whole milk yogurt as a starter. I heated it to almost boiling, mixed in the yogurt ( afew tbsp.) and have been incubating it for about 17 hours... it's still liquid. I kept it as warm as I could for a few hours yesterday until I went to bed, then it cooled considerably overnight. I tried the cooler method (hot water inside) and the thermos method.

What do I do now? At what point does it go bad? Do I throw it out and get new milk? Can I use this as a starter somehow to try again?

Thanks!


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## webjefita (Aug 16, 2003)

I think my mistake was adding the yogurt while the milk was still hot, not letting it cool to 110 first.

So, can I still use this milk? To remake yogurt? Or can we just drink it?


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Joni, you're right, you have to cool it to 110 before you incubate it, otherwise your culture dies. I personally wouldn't drink it or reuse it, but others might disagree.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalkr* 
OK - so my head is swirling and I'm trying to get it sorted out







Basically, my goals are to find the best quality probiotic for the least cost. My ds has several (now) mild food allergies/intollerances, my dh is lactose intollerant, and as for me, I'm 11 weeks pg and would like to try to prevent the reflux/food issues that my first ds went through. So, my questions:

1. Am I correct in thinking that the probiotics found in yogurt you make at home is better both in quality and in numbers than a store bought supplement?

2. If I do start making the yogurt - should I use a starter that has multiple strains in it, like the Yogourmet CBA Probiotic Yogurt Starter http://yogurtmakers.livingright.com/...t-Starter.html

3. How much yogurt would me and/or my 2 yo need to have daily?

Am I on the right track??? Thanks in advance!!

Crystal


I'm interested as well!!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *webjefita* 
So, can I still use this milk? To remake yogurt? Or can we just drink it?

No, throw it away and start with fresh milk and fresh starter. Other bacteria have likely grown since the yogurt bacteria that preserves the milk died.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalkr* 
OK - so my head is swirling and I'm trying to get it sorted out







Basically, my goals are to find the best quality probiotic for the least cost. My ds has several (now) mild food allergies/intollerances, my dh is lactose intollerant, and as for me, I'm 11 weeks pg and would like to try to prevent the reflux/food issues that my first ds went through. So, my questions:

1. Am I correct in thinking that the probiotics found in yogurt you make at home is better both in quality and in numbers than a store bought supplement?

2. If I do start making the yogurt - should I use a starter that has multiple strains in it, like the Yogourmet CBA Probiotic Yogurt Starter http://yogurtmakers.livingright.com/...t-Starter.html

3. How much yogurt would me and/or my 2 yo need to have daily?

Am I on the right track??? Thanks in advance!!

Crystal

1. Yes and no.

24 hour yogurt removes all lactose and has highest bacterial count, see here: http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

The types of bacteria in yogurt cultures and the specific strains are different though than in supplements. I have been adding some super strains to my yogurt mix: Nature's Way Reuteri and Natren's Acidophilus and Bifido factor for this reason. And Natren's Yogurt starter for their super strain of Bulgaricus. I may experiment with Culturelle next. Super strains have been identified to actually live longer, attach to intestinal walls... basically to stick around to do some good better than other versions of certain bacteria.

Goodpapa orginally used several super strains in his yogurt making method and we should learn from that. However, one issue that complicates this is that some strains may crowd out others. Bifidobacterium for example has a tendancy to do this. I do not know how others behave. That Yogourmet multi is interesting b/c it also brings up the point that different bacteria may like different temps too.

2. Yes that looks like a good mix of bacteria but it seems like it must be used with a certain yogurt maker to get the full benefit of all strains?

3. Completely individual depending on needs, current health and desired results. You might want to start slow to be sure it is tolerated well and doesn't shift gut flora so fast.

All of these issues illustrates why kefir is so unique and may be more beneficial for certain people rather than yogurt. Kefir contains both beneficial yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship... they all get along together.

See other posts regarding bifidus and infants.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...61&postcount=9

Supplement with bifidobacterium, avoid all antibiotics and vaccines (you and them), and give no other food than BM if you want the best chance of good flora in your next babe. This is nature's way of sealing up the infant's gut and avoiding reflux/allergies as good gut flora is the gatekeeper of the immature immune system. Even more crucial at that age b/c other immune factors are not developed yet.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Whatever happened to Goodpapa, anyway?


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## manoj_2002 (Nov 22, 2006)

Very informative and eye opening thread, but after reading all the posts, I am totally confused.
Can someone please answer some of my basic questions:

1. From what I understand, we have to make 2 separate yogurts to capture most of the good bacteria. Now where do I buy the yogurt starters? Can you please also give me the specific names?
2. Are the freeze dried starters any good?
3. Is that correct to say we can make about 5 cycles of yogurt (using previous cycle's yogurt) before using the starter again?
4. What is the best milk to use? Pasteurized and Non-homogenized? Can we get it in the store?
5. Apart from Yogurt, what are the other sources I can get the good bacteria. I know this is a difficult question to answer. But if you suggest some products (sauerkraut?)and brand names etc, that will be great.
I know these are too many questions, but answers would help a lot of people like me.
Thank you everyone


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## Becken (May 28, 2006)

bump!


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Holy cow! I just need to sub so that I can remember where this thread is









I'm getting started on dairy and water kefir and will be picking up some kombucha SCOBY this week! Yay!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *manoj_2002* 
Very informative and eye opening thread, but after reading all the posts, I am totally confused.
Can someone please answer some of my basic questions:

1. From what I understand, we have to make 2 separate yogurts to capture most of the good bacteria. Now where do I buy the yogurt starters? Can you please also give me the specific names?
2. Are the freeze dried starters any good?

Goodpapa and many make separate yogurts to vary bacterial strains. But its not necessarily needed.

Yes, both Yogourmet and Natren are good starters. I've added bifidobacterium or acidophilus or Reuteri separately to my batches for high counts that I couldn't get from pills.

Quote:

3. Is that correct to say we can make about 5 cycles of yogurt (using previous cycle's yogurt) before using the starter again?
Personally I use fresh starter but that's just me.

Quote:


4. What is the best milk to use? Pasteurized and Non-homogenized? Can we get it in the store?
Raw grass fed. Has omega 3's and doesn't have oxidized cholesterol. Otherwise organic grass fed pasteurized homogenzied next best bet.

Quote:

5. Apart from Yogurt, what are the other sources I can get the good bacteria. I know this is a difficult question to answer. But if you suggest some products (sauerkraut?)and brand names etc, that will be great.
I know these are too many questions, but answers would help a lot of people like me.
I highly recommend Kefir (raw milk the best). It contains beneficial yeasts as well as lactobacillus. Lactobacillus is very helpful for the digestion but it actually is a very small part (1% or less) of your gut flora. If you are having problems, best to include other strains for maximum effect.

There are Kefir grains that are renewable (and you can eat them too, your own personal probiotic factory!
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html

Or powder:
http://www.mercola.com/forms/kefir.htm

Yogourmet makes a Kefir powder too but I haven't tried it.

Sauerkraut yes indeed, one of the best for L. Plantarum. Must not be pasteurized. I forget brands, there might be a thread in Traditional Foods, you can start one asking for recs if not.

Get the book _"Nourishing Traditions"_ to learn how to make many different kinds of probiotic foods such as pickled cucumbers and red peppers (my favorite, search on my name for recipe). And why they are good for you, aid digestion, boost immune system, etc.

Fermented ketchup is great too, I just posted a recipe in recent ketchup thread in N&GE forum. Also can make other dairy ferments such as villi or fil mojik (sp?). And fermented beverages such as lacto fermented sodas, kombucha, water kefir, etc. etc. Traditional diets have also included probiotic foods for good health and yummy eating, they have died off in our horribly processed modern food culture.

You are welcome, sorry I didn't see until now! (hope you are around.)


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I get my freeze dried Yogourmet starter at Whole Foods but I've seen it many places online. Lucy's Kitchen Shop for ex. Never had a batch fail.

Natren's starter is in some stores on west coast or online at www.natren.com. I happen to be on a Natren kick right now b/c they have the super strains DDS-1 Acidophilus and LB something or other Bulgaricus.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

subbing and bumping


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## goodearthmama (Nov 7, 2006)

I didn't read through all 25 pages, but I did read something the other night that I did not know and thought was a great tidbit of info:

Your child receives 80-85% of their probiotic bacteria when they pass through the mother's birth canal during natural childbirth. The remaining 15-20% is acquired through the child's environment (soil-based org. in food & natural environment or probiotic supplements, etc.)

WOW! Just one more reason to advocate a natural birth!!

Also, after reading that, I am researching how to really boost up my personal probiotic count and intestinal flora before I give birth to my first this July(or June). I will post a thread soon about it when I know more!! or anyone else knowledgeable about this-let me know!!


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## Love_Cyber_Cat (Aug 14, 2006)

Hello!
After reading this wonderful thread I still have a question- can you believe it?
Is it OK to feed 8 1/2 mo baby with homemade yougurt? She is going through stomach virus and i would love to help her immune system fight it off, it seems she is doing better but then in a few days she starts puking again. She is EBF with just a few solids here and there- nothing big...
Thanks!


----------



## snuffles (Apr 11, 2002)

Yet another newbie here with questions.

I would like to give my 5 and 2 yr old probiotics for off and on yeast problems (they got from me.. I have always struggled with it.) They both have loose stools. I would also like something for myself (and I am nursing a 7 mo baby.)

I discovered Three-lac at amazon.com and it intrigues me. Has anyone tried it? It seems so expensive, and I would like to find something that would work for less but I am willing to try three-lac if it's the best.

Thoughts?


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodearthmama* 
Also, after reading that, I am researching how to really boost up my personal probiotic count and intestinal flora before I give birth to my first this July(or June). I will post a thread soon about it when I know more!! or anyone else knowledgeable about this-let me know!!

Please do link to your post. I think a number of things can effect vaginal flora, including probiotics we eat like the strongest versions of homemade yogurt and kefir. Possibly using super strains of yogurt bacteria like Natren's. And including bifidobacteria in your pg regime since it will be over 90% of a healthy babe's flora. Avoiding antibiotics is definitely a must.

I'm also thinking that some of the allergy doctors advice I've come across to supplement babes immediately right after birth with bifidobacterium makes a lot of sense.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mat4mel* 
Yet another newbie here with questions.

I would like to give my 5 and 2 yr old probiotics for off and on yeast problems (they got from me.. I have always struggled with it.) They both have loose stools. I would also like something for myself (and I am nursing a 7 mo baby.)

I discovered Three-lac at amazon.com and it intrigues me. Has anyone tried it? It seems so expensive, and I would like to find something that would work for less but I am willing to try three-lac if it's the best.

Thoughts?

There are a few threads around on it, have you searched? Personally I would go with homemade kefir for the beneficial yeasts and high counts. Raw milk dairy kefir stopped my thrush while bf'ing. You can make dairy or water kefir.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love_Cyber_Cat* 
Hello!
After reading this wonderful thread I still have a question- can you believe it?
Is it OK to feed 8 1/2 mo baby with homemade yougurt? She is going through stomach virus and i would love to help her immune system fight it off, it seems she is doing better but then in a few days she starts puking again. She is EBF with just a few solids here and there- nothing big...
Thanks!









Maybe, it's really individual. If she has had digestive and gut flora problems it could lead to allergic reaction but if not it's fine. Yogurt predigests the proteins so really it makes sense for yogurt to be the first introduction to dairy for a babe. You can also take the probiotics yourself, there's really nothing better than healthy breastmilk for the digestive system. I think at her age she probably still needs bifidobacterium and maybe L. Reuteri and L. acidophilus will help combat the crisis.

Vitamin A is also excellent at treating viruses (standard measles treatment) get some high vitamin cod liver oil and take a tablespoon yourself, she will get the A thru your milk.


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## cohsmama (Oct 12, 2004)

I started doing kefir about 2 weeks ago. I gave my dd and ds kefir twice since then. My daughter developed a stomach ache 5 days ago. For 2 days it was just stomach ache. Then, she developed a fever and has been doing cold/flu symptoms with a major sore tummy. Is there any chance that I gave her some germ-y kefir?

I had one day where the kefir smelled like acetone. I dumped it, rinsed it and have been kefiring successfully since then. She hasn't eaten it since before that day. My ds is fine and I am fine.

Thanks for helping me figure this out.

Ann


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## TushasAmi (Feb 2, 2007)

I started reading this thread a few weeks ago and was getting excited to make my own yougurt and then figured out that dd is sensitive to dairy. So then I thought I could make water kefir using the Body Ecology kefir starter powder. However, I emailed them and they told me that their starters are cultered on dairy and therefore are obviously not dairy-free.

What are my options for homemade probiotic foods that are dairy-free? and what starter can I use?

Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm eager to get started!

-Heather


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TushasAmi* 
I started reading this thread a few weeks ago and was getting excited to make my own yougurt and then figured out that dd is sensitive to dairy. So then I thought I could make water kefir using the Body Ecology kefir starter powder. However, I emailed them and they told me that their starters are cultered on dairy and therefore are obviously not dairy-free.

What are my options for homemade probiotic foods that are dairy-free? and what starter can I use?

Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm eager to get started!

-Heather

You could do water kefir grains


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## TushasAmi (Feb 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
You could do water kefir grains

Great! Thank you. Any suggestions about which ones and where to find them?


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TushasAmi* 
Great! Thank you. Any suggestions about which ones and where to find them?

Here's a thread where you can post for people to send you some









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=517191


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## TushasAmi (Feb 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
Here's a thread where you can post for people to send you some









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=517191

Thanks a lot! I hadn't ventured over to the tradional foods forum yet. Lots of good info there!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping to read more.

Pat


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)




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## naturalmom08 (Dec 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodearthmama* 
I didn't read through all 25 pages, but I did read something the other night that I did not know and thought was a great tidbit of info:

Your child receives 80-85% of their probiotic bacteria when they pass through the mother's birth canal during natural childbirth. The remaining 15-20% is acquired through the child's environment (soil-based org. in food & natural environment or probiotic supplements, etc.)

WOW! Just one more reason to advocate a natural birth!!

Also, after reading that, I am researching how to really boost up my personal probiotic count and intestinal flora before I give birth to my first this July(or June). I will post a thread soon about it when I know more!! or anyone else knowledgeable about this-let me know!!

Came across this old post today, and wondered if anyone else had any more info on this. This is the first I've heard about this. I know babies get probiotics through breastmilk, but hadn't heard about getting it during natural birth. And what about other births (with meds administered) causes the babies to not get probiotics during birth?

Also to add, for those of you asking about what to give young babies, I've always given my 9 mo. old dd a probiotic...natrogen or Jarrowdophilus, or Primadophilus for kids. I don't give more than the suggested amount, but have given due to antibiotics (she's had 2 surgeries), and flu season. Interesting tidbit as well...did you know that about 70% of our immune system is related to our guts? Good reason to take a probiotic.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

I need to go back, I just thought I'd share our dairy-free probiotic approach. We're dairy-free, have been for a year and a half and probably will be for at least another 2 or 3 years, I'm guessing. I love making fermented vegetables. In fact....

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ight=fermented

this thread in Traditional Foods is full of great ideas about how to ferment many, many different types of veggies. I like the section on fermented veggies from Nourishing Traditions, but it makes it seem very complicated (and it calls for whey, which is just strange) but this discusses how to really do it and have the ferments turn out.

For now, given that we can't have any dairy, I am starting to look into whether fermented veggies that some cultures have consumed in relatively large volumes (sauerkraut, kimchee, pickles, haven't gotten beyond that yet) could have a comparable effect on regulating the bacterial balance in the gut.

I can say that having kimchee and pickles 2-3x/day (after we'd taken out our allergens, for us gluten and dairy) has had a very nice effect on her poop. It was somewhat pale and falling apart a bit too much (variable depending on other things as well) but it's turned brown and formed and it looks nice.

http://www.enzymestuff.com/rtstools.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale

I found those helpful with the poop situation.

I haven't looked far yet into how much difference, in terms of bacteria, there is between different types of veggie ferments, but for right now, I'm trying to focus on ones we like that have a history of being eaten in volume.

Now I'll go back and read this monster thread. It looks fun.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, Pat, you rock! Thanks for digging this up! I'll be back tonight to read more.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

My favorite subject.









Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Pat


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

bumping and subbing


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## annarose999 (Feb 5, 2010)

bump. it took me two days to find this again!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This is my new favorite site for evidence-based research about alternative treatments. There are over 120 studies linked from PubMed about the power of probiotics!

Pat


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