# Permissiveness



## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Warning: this is one rambling post.

What are your thoughts on permissiveness? Including what you think it means, and how you feel about it, and how you feel it relates (or does not relate) to GD?

I know most people equate GD with permissiveness, and while I believe most here will disagree, I am interested in examining that further rather than simply dismissing it.

IMHO, permissiveness is letting your kids do whatever they want because you are afraid to intervene. For example, letting your kid do something when you think there may be a bad outcome (something broken, feelings hurt, physical hurt, etc.) just because you're afraid of what might happen if you try to stop it (crying, screaming, etc.).

I realize GD does not dictate where you draw the line - for example, you and I can both be GD but I might permit something you would not - but I also think that some parents (GD or not) just draw the line in different places for reasons other than not wanting to discipline.

I would probably be considered permissive by many observers - I let my child make a mess or even play with breakable items (not other people's, just mine). I feel a mess is not a bad thing and usually easy to clean up, and I know my DD well enough to trust her with breakable items (honestly, she's broken one thing her whole life. She's 2.). If it were another child, I might feel differently.

But I just wonder where the difference between being permissive and being laid-back is? Am I in fact permissive? I do prefer to let DD make a mess rather than stop her from it because I know she'll often object strenously if I try to take her away from something she's doing, and I feel the mess is a small thing. So does that make me afraid to discipline her, given that choice?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Permissive is a loaded word, I agree with you. People's definitions vary wildly on the subject (as you will probably see







).

I ask this lovingly and with kind intent though, why does it matter if anyone thinks you are permissive or not? If you feel good about what you are doing and your child is healthy, happy, and is learning skills at a level you feel is age and developmentally appropriate for her personality type, that is all that matters imo.

We are probably considered permissive by most *mainstreamers* and even by some GD standards. However, that doesn't make a lick of difference in how we parent -- dd is a healthy, happy, secure, loving, gentle little human being and while I don't credit our parenting style for _causing_ it, I certainly give the method some credit for creating an environment to _support_ the growth and blossoming of what I believe was _already_ a gentle, loving, capable, happy spirit.

Permissive shermissive


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I would probably be considered permissive as well. I prefer just to fight the battles that are really important, like when someone could get hurt. I would probably be more permissive but then I have to deal with the wrath of my husband. For example, jumping on the couch and standing on chairs is something that I don't care about. But he is so against it and if I allow it, it causes a huge blowup between us.

But my kids are very well-behaved (I hate that term but that is what everyone tells me about them) so I know I am doing a great job.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think if you're not intervening in something potentially dangerous or hurtful because you're afraid of your child's reaction, then that's simply bad parenting. It's telling the child that you don't think they can handle disappointment. And is going to lead to a whiny, insecure child. Similarly, if you don't intervene because you can't be bothered to get your butt off the couch. Your child is going to grow up thinking you don't care about them.

On the other hand, if you don't intervene because you trust that your child, or you don't mind messes and you value the exploration your child is doing, then it's not permissiveness. Yes, sometimes you might let your child do something that in retrospect wasn't such a great idea (see my first example below) but I don't think that's harmful. It's a learning experience for both you.

Some little things I do that I _know_ that make some of my friends look at us funny:
-Let my kids (even dd who is just 3) color with permanent markers. We did have to restrict dd's a bit when she went off the paper a lot this week and got permanent marker all over our wood floor (anybody got any idea how to get sharpie out of a wood floor?), but it wasn't ill intention on her part, she was just trying to trace her body -- which doesn't fit on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper, even if several are strung together! Our solution is to ask her to put a newspaper under the paper she is drawing on.

-Not require our kids to wear shoes (ok dd - ds never takes his shoes off!). So, dd spent about a month at church either just in her socks or in bare feet. She didn't have comfortable church shoes, and I wasn't going to have a 30 minute battle with her about keeping shoes on.

-Letting dd run around the house naked.

-Let my kids eat sweet snacks after dinner/before bedtime. They're amazingly good at self-regulating after dinner (they're OK before dinner too, but it does interfere with their eating dinner, and I do want to make sure that they get a decent meal of reasonably healthy food).

-Not monitoring what they eat at potlucks.

There's a difference between relaxed and connected and permissemess (and I can tell you that I'm a lot _less_ relaxed that captain crunchy!)


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## of2mindsmama (Nov 18, 2007)

-Let my kids (even dd who is just 3) color with permanent markers. We did have to restrict dd's a bit when she went off the paper a lot this week and got permanent marker all over our wood floor (anybody got any idea how to get sharpie out of a wood floor?),

hi lynn,
try rubbing alcohol.
lots of people use it to make sharpie permanent marker tie-dye online, it makes the ink run. so it should dissolve your stains too.
i wonder if it will do anything to the finish on your floor. i don't think so, but if it does, you can always reapply a finish after you get the stain up.
good luck!


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

Some people think I'm permissive but its really that I belive in natural consequences, and I guess they look the same sometimes?
I don't allow things because I'm afraid of screaming and crying if I do so. There might be a bad outcome going to happen and I can see that it will happen, and sometimes I let it happen out of 'natural consequence' so ds can learn from it.
The amount of times ds has a glass of water and spills it and I still let him have glasses of water could be seen as permissive. 'Why don't you just give him a sippy!' I hear from others. But he helps me clean up the water, or sometimes he slips on the water, and usually by the 3rd time of spilling it on the floor he doesn't do it anymore.


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## Logan's Mom (Mar 2, 2006)

Interesting thread...I hope more people post.

I am interested in figuring out the right thing to do as far as discipline goes. I really don't care what other people think of my style but I do work and he has to go elsewhere so that will be an interesting topic when issues arise.

I guess I would definately call myself permissive to a fault. Take this example, for which I was just unthinking and kind of stupid. We were at a car show (a big event one of my client's host every year) and my son was crusing along a car, got his hands dirty from the tires, but kept on crusing around and around. Well, my thoughts were that he wasn't doing any harm, I didn't see any dirt getting on the car so I kept let him go at it. It was only from someone else's reaction (no not even the car's owner) did it hit me that it probably wasn't the "right" thing to do. Duh -- these people are car people -- these cars are their babies. Now, this wasn't an expensive or old car -- but it wasn't MY car and I was letting my son do this.







I hope to learn from my own mistakes but wanted to share what an unthinking thing I did with my permissiveness. How do you teach him what is ok with your stuff (I'd let him cruise my car no problem at all) vs. what is ok with someone else's stuff?

My mother made a comment something to the effect of what kind a parent she found me to be (not really saying what that meant -- but ok, we can guess that would be permissive) when I let my son push the buttons on the TV. She thinks I shouldn't let him do this cause he would do this at other people's homes. Well, I guess so...the only place he goes is the sitters, really. We don't have friends or family here so we don't go to other people's homes. My thought was, well he doesn't go anywhere, its something he will outgrow and he isn't hurting anyone or anything.

Am I too permissive? I just don't know. I'm lienent and pick my battles (mostly only when he could get hurt.)

Now that he is getting older, I know we should teach him how to do things like not throw his toys (still haven't figured out how to get this one across) and pick up his toys (again, this hasn't worked yet either). I simply don't know where to draw the line so to speak, with the exception of when he gets hurt and now that I have learned from my own mistake about him respecting someone elses property.

I hope that made sense wasn't a bunch of rambling jibberish.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I really don't think permissiveness has much at all to do with what behaviors you consciously choose to allow or dissallow. A lot of the specific rules and behaviors mentioned on this thread have more to do with personal tolerance levels and values than with parenting style.

I think permissive parents tend to be more caught up in their own needs and wants than their child's needs, at that attitude leads to a lot of inconsistancy in the child's life. If you are persmissive, you may respond differently to the same behavior depending on your mood. You will make it a priority to be "liked" by your child, because you won't be able to tolerate him being angry with _you_ (nothing to do with what _he_ needs, just with how _you_ feel.) I do think permissive parents tend to tip-toe around confrontation with their child, and dissmiss or belittle any negative feelings their child might have. eg. - "_Oh don't cry -- here, have a lollypop!"_

My understanding is the permissive parenting tends to be void of consistancy, structure, predictability, and reliability -- and very confusing to the child.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I see a lot of what could be described as "permissive" behavior in public at story time, stores, and the playground. It seems that some mothers are aware of their child's behavior, but seem to shy or embarrassed to do anything about it when they have an audience. They just sit there with an uncomfortable smile on their faces. I consider myself pretty tolerant and lenient, bur some of the behaviors I've seen make me shake my head.

I have a family member who is like this. We were at a craft fair and her dd (who is 7 and developmentally average) was in a crafter's stall pulling out all the soaps and candles, ripping the price tags and ingredient tags off, walking out of the stall and dumping them at another crafter's table.







: The poor lady (her products were beautifully packaged, and the care she took to make her display was obvious) just sat there with her mouth hanging open. The girl's mom saw it all, but nothing was said. I was the one who asked her to stop, brought everything back, and apologized to the crafter. That, imo is permissive parenting.
I do not like going any where with them, because things of that sort happen quite frequently.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I do agree with mamaduck that what you allow or do not allow your child to do has to do with the rules you choose for your house. If you decide that your child can touch the TV buttons, fine. That is your house, your rules. And of course, rules change with age..
Permissiveness is also not - in my opinion - wanting to be liked at all costs. It is - at least for me - my inability to make my children follow the house rules.
For example, Oceanbaby in another thread I read this morning finds it difficult to get her children pick up toys. Me too, I really am not successful at that. I do not think that Oceanbaby finds that hard because she wants to be liked or is tiptoeing around her children. And that is also not the problem with me. It is just very difficult for me to find tools, within the GD palette, that are not going to lead to an incredible waste of time and are going to get the children to follow the house rules.
I will not allow my kids to do things that are not appropriate. Like if they were destroying stuff on a display, I would be able to make that stop. And honestly, I have never seen them do things like that... However, stopping bad behaviour is one thing, obtaining cooperation quite another. I agree with a lot of the comments I get, that I am too permissive. I find that the lack of time is the main problem. Because for example the Maya44/Wolfe technique of "waiting for the bus" is hard to fit in the little time we have together, as life of full-time working parents to children in school goes, although I would agree it is successful in many cases


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

For me - I think 'permissivness' has more to do with letting your children do what they want without thought.

I like mamaducks description:

Quote:

I really don't think permissiveness has much at all to do with what behaviors you consciously choose to allow or dissallow. A lot of the specific rules and behaviors mentioned on this thread have more to do with personal tolerance levels and values than with parenting style.

I think permissive parents tend to be more caught up in their own needs and wants than their child's needs, at that attitude leads to a lot of inconsistancy in the child's life. If you are persmissive, you may respond differently to the same behavior depending on your mood. You will make it a priority to be "liked" by your child, because you won't be able to tolerate him being angry with you (nothing to do with what he needs, just with how you feel.)
That kind of lifestyle...attitude...is really done without much though imo. Its just acted out, an act of selfishness...permissivness!

Dawn says:

Quote:

Some people think I'm permissive but its really that I belive in natural consequences, and I guess they look the same sometimes?
And yeah I agree - I get the same as well! A think a lot of people just view permissivness as 'letting your children do what they want'...and whilst I do let my son do what he wants (whilst helping him set boundaries in a way not always obvious to those who think that dicipline and setting boundaries requires punishments! lol) - I do 'think' about everything. My son doing what he wants, isnt without my thought into it a bit. He is doing what he wants because I am allowing him to - so not being permissive. And this is really more what people have said above in that:

Quote:

I really don't think permissiveness has much at all to do with what behaviors you consciously choose to allow or dissallow. A lot of the specific rules and behaviors mentioned on this thread have more to do with personal tolerance levels and values than with parenting style.
I once explained GD and they said 'Oh so you are just a whole lot more tolerant?'...lol Yeah I guess I am! - I dont stress the small stuff that really doesnt matter. Who cares if my child has squished a banana into the carpet... that can be washed out! - hes having fun and learning about...bananas and carpet! lol I am not being permissive...I have given it thought and my conclusion is that it doesnt matter.

One thing that led me to this thought on permissivness was reading up on tantrums - that link above about 'Cry for Connection' where it points out that actually (what most 'mainstreamers do') ignoring the tantrum is being permissive...not listening to your child and understanding their feelings and letting them 'get it out' by allowing them to have a tantrum...which imo gives it a whole lot more thougth than just ignoring the tantrum...if any of that makes sense! lol


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
For me - I think 'permissivness' has more to do with letting your children do what they want without thought.

I like mamaducks description:

That kind of lifestyle...attitude...is really done without much though imo. Its just acted out, an act of selfishness...permissivness!

I disagree with this AnnofLoxley.... You know, take my mum for example, she cared so much about the four of us and really did think about us and how to raise us a whole lot. I love my mom to bits, and I do not want to use a loaded word - like permissiveness - to describe her, because she tried her darn hardest. That notwithstanding, it was beyond her to get us to follow the house rules. If we wanted to respect them we did but many times we did not. Like my eldest brother would beat my second eldest brother. Bad. They were teenagers. It was horrendous. She was just not capable of making that stop. I remember (I was like 5-6 yo I was sobbing in my room and felt awful, awful for my dear brother). Picking up after ourselves? At times she managed to get us to help, mostly she did herself. My eldest brother - it was a struggle for her to get him to go to school when he was a teenager. At times, well, it was just impossible and he skipped school. A lot of the things which were not allowed, happened nonetheless. This kind of parenting, combined with kids which were all of them gifted in different areas, did not lead to anything dramatic. Some of us - and I do put myself in the category - were left with a lot of difficulty following rules and imposing rules on others (leadership). We're all very creative, and very individualistic, as well... I do not judge her, I really have the very same difficulties that she had. For me permissiveness is a lack of authority - not for want of trying, though. I think she would have coped well with one, but the four of us was a lot. Like for me, I cope with one, two seems a crowd already...


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

slightly confused... I described permissivness along with 'not thinking' and you disagree yet say...

Quote:

she cared so much about the four of us *and really did think about us and how to raise us a whole lo*t.
so what is it you disagree with? lol
It doesnt sound to me like she was being permissive...she was thinking about you...a lot.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
slightly confused... I described permissivness along with 'not thinking' and you disagree yet say...

so what is it you disagree with? lol
It doesnt sound to me like she was being permissive...she was thinking about you...a lot.

We define permissiveness differently Ann. For me, permissiveness is not a lack of thinking. It is a lack of authority. She did think about us, like I do think about my dc yet, we both, we find it difficult to get cooperation. I think - it hurts to say that - but yes, she was permissive and so am I.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Oh right...gottcha!

But is that a bad thing? I wouldnt like to think I have authority over my son. He is his own person. I am here to guide him but not to rule him!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I know what you mean Ann, and believe me when I had only one I felt the same way. We could negotiate through most things. But with two, endless negotiating is exhausting and there are times when not all needs can be met. Rules are good then. Growing up within a household where there are rules and a structure is very reassuring. It is frightening to hear your eldest brother beat the second eldest while your own mum is crying "please, please stop, please" but then he is not stopping. I mean, to this day I wonder, "But what could she have done?" He was you know much taller and stronger than her and he had a bad, bad temper.... Seeing my mom having little time to herself because she needed to pick up after us was not nice either. I am so trying to do better - I hope I succeed.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

We're not permissive. Between my husband's safety consciousness, and my interest in inculcating good manners, we're in the kid's business. It seems to be working well. Our community (at synagogue, at the park, at daycare, other places we go with him) likes our child's behavior and they seem pleased to see him. He makes friends with other children and seems to have found the golden mean in playing between not taking any physical risks and getting hurt all the time. (That is, he takes some risks but doesn't constantly hurt himself.)

But there's one of him and two of us, and he's at an age where he likes us involved and wants to discuss things with us. So it's working.

I think we sometimes conflate permissive parenting with ineffective parenting, and that's probably because permissive parenting looks like ineffective discipline.

Parents who are permissive allow their children to do anything they like, no matter how obnoxious or dangerous. Sometimes this is a spectrum, like parents who think that children are ready to make certain decisions that _I_ don't think they are! Sometimes it's just not being willing to intervene for another reason.

Parents who are ineffective may not mean to permit everything, but they don't have the resources to stop their children doing dangerous things, or things that are harmful to others.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
I think we sometimes conflate permissive parenting with ineffective parenting, and that's probably because permissive parenting looks like ineffective discipline.

Parents who are permissive allow their children to do anything they like, no matter how obnoxious or dangerous. Sometimes this is a spectrum, like parents who think that children are ready to make certain decisions that _I_ don't think they are! Sometimes it's just not being willing to intervene for another reason.

Parents who are ineffective may not mean to permit everything, but they don't have the resources to stop their children doing dangerous things, or things that are harmful to others.

Perhaps you are right, I confuse permissiveness with ineffectiveness. In actual fact, they seem to lead to the same result, so for me they are just the same thing. A complete lack of authority.

I am not sure I have ever met a permissive parent that matches your description. I meet plenty of ineffective or at least partially ineffective ones. I hear a lot of "You never ever obey!" or "Will you for just this time listen!" being yelled at kiddos who are wrecking hamoc in shops, running away from the parent at the park when it is time to go, etc etc.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
Perhaps you are right, I confuse permissiveness with ineffectiveness. In actual fact, they seem to lead to the same result, so for me they are just the same thing. A complete lack of authority.

I am not sure I have ever met a permissive parent that matches your description. I meet plenty of ineffective or at least partially ineffective ones. I hear a lot of "You never ever obey!" or "Will you for just this time listen!" being yelled at kiddos who are wrecking hamoc in shops, running away from the parent at the park when it is time to go, etc etc.

Yes, these folks sound ineffective to me--and not particularly gentle, either!

My neighbors, who are very good parents in most ways, have made some decisions that one could construe as permissive. For example, they don't regulate whether their children dress warmly in the winter. Now, lots of people here decide that, and I am pretty neutral about it. My husband thinks it's _terrible_--the children will get cold! (my husband's fear of cold cracks me up!) I think these are the parenting decisions of individual families. I've been in discussions with groups of parents in which someone said that they let their older child make some decisions for herself that their younger children weren't ready to make at the same age.

I think gentle discipline is more effective than punitive discipline, though I would probably not want to punish for ethical reasons in any case.

I am guessing that some parents lack authority with their children because they are seeking the wrong kind of authority. You can be an authority figure in the sense of meting out punishments, or you can be an authority in the sense of being an expert, a go-to person with questions. If you are the latter, kids do listen, even when what you are asserting is that it's time to leave the park. Right? Because they know when you say "it's time to leave the park," it's because you have information about dinner!







The same way, I mean, that you have information about, I don't know, how to look up song lyrics, or the migratory habits of birds, or what to say when you accidentally push someone down, or how to repair a doorknob.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Yes, I think permissiveness and ineffectiveness are very different. Permissive parents permit behaviors, ineffective parents cannot stop/redirect behaviors. One allows it, the other does not allow it but fails in the discipline.

I do see permissive parents in public who let their children destroy property or annoy strangers and do absolutely nothing. To me that's different from the parents who are ineffectively saying "no! put that down! come back here now!" to a kid who ignores them. It's both poor discipline though, IMHO.

Yeah, it's hard to say if permissiveness is an objective or subjective description. I call something permissive if the parent is allowing a child to negatively affect a person or property that is not the parent's.

So if my kid plays with our Christmas tree and breaks an ornament, that's fine, I just help her clean it up (if I cared about the ornament I would have done something to prevent this in the first place, such as putting it out of reach - but if I didn't, then I would permit it). But when we go over another person's house, I do not permit her to play with their Christmas tree, because I cannot decide on the other people's behalf how they feel about their ornaments. If I did, I would consider that permissive (and not good parenting). Also, if I just kept yelling at them ("get away from that! you put that down right now!") that would not be permissive (I wouldn't be permitting them to play with the tree) but plain ineffective.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
Yes, these folks sound ineffective to me--and not particularly gentle, either!

Yeah! At least meeting parents like these makes me feel like such a good parent for at least getting as far as being able to get my kids to: leave a party politely, not touching the displays, etc etc. I am definetely trying to teach them all the time about a lot of stuff. I find when they are learning from me (even stuff as simple as being able to prepare boiled pasta with no sauce) then they are listening to me more when I make unpopular decisions.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think "permissive" is a word with a very good literal meaning -- but it's been given a bad rap in our society. It's generally used, as mamaduck said, to describe parents who are so self-absorbed they just don't care to be tuned-in to their kids.

Like many of you, I often get labeled as permissive simply because I believe in letting my kids explore the world in their own ways. I don't stress about banana getting smashed into the carpet -- even if it later gets eaten.









I get fed up with the tendency for some to want everyone to understand Gentle Discipline is NOT permissive parenting. Why not just talk about what it IS? It's pretty obvious, once you start to look into it, that it's a very attentive and involved style of parenting.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I don't think that the inability or failure to control a child's behavior is necessarily persmissiveness, in and of itself. Some children are more challenging than others, and sometimes we just cannot manage a child's behavior. If the parent has consistant expectations, and responds constructively to misbehavior -- they are not permissive. Each child has the ability to push the envelope if they so choose. I think it is problematical to judge parenting based on children's behavior.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
Yeah! At least meeting parents like these makes me feel like such a good parent for at least getting as far as being able to get my kids to: leave a party politely, not touching the displays, etc etc. I am definetely trying to teach them all the time about a lot of stuff. I find when they are learning from me (even stuff as simple as being able to prepare boiled pasta with no sauce) then they are listening to me more when I make unpopular decisions.

Sometimes it's not what you get them to do, but what skills you teach them to have. We have been having fun reading Pippi Longstocking together. Pippi is always doing things she shouldn't because she doesn't understand manners. I am not sure how much my son understands this, but it's an interesting way to think about it. It's more like I want him to learn HOW to do it, and to practice doing it the socially acceptable way, so that later he'll be able to choose to do things this way.

It's not that he has to obey me about the right behavior, but that I am responsible to teach him the best way to handle things in society, so that he has that at his disposal. Not to teach him how to behave well is doing him a disservice.

Then the second part is to say why we do things in a certain way, which is also important, I think, because manners and morals are connected, and I want to transmit my ethical values.

Every time my kid remembers to say "thank you" I could write a book about it1


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

I have a sort of three-question test as to whether or not some behavior or action should be allowed. DS is almost 2.

1. Will it hurt DS
2. Will it hurt someone else
3. Will it irreparably damage/destroy an object (sure they're just things, but things cost money and can be useful so I don't want them destroyed.)

So, there are many things I don't care about- like making a mess with food or toys, or playing in puddles/mud, or making a lot of noise in the privacy of his own home- that some others think should be stopped, but they can't give me a rational reason. They think I am permissive...but DS is a great kid so I don't care what they think.


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## Logan's Mom (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
So if my kid plays with our Christmas tree and breaks an ornament, that's fine, I just help her clean it up (if I cared about the ornament I would have done something to prevent this in the first place, such as putting it out of reach - but if I didn't, then I would permit it). But when we go over another person's house, I do not permit her to play with their Christmas tree, because I cannot decide on the other people's behalf how they feel about their ornaments.

I get this, I really do. How does the LO know the difference between what is acceptable at one place isn't at another? I don't know at what age (if there is an age) that they can understand the concept of what is ok at one place and not another. I guess the only reason why I'm hung up on this is because of my mother....yes, long history of horrible parenting (not that she meant to be one, its just a fact) has got me all screwed up inside.







:


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
I do see permissive parents in public who let their children destroy property or annoy strangers and do absolutely nothing.

Yes, this is how I define (the negative connotation of) permissive parenting.

As far as the whole "how will they learn that it's not okay to play with other people's Christmas tree if I allow him to play with our Christmas tree" thing, I think that would be an incredibly stressful and not at all authentic-feeling way to parent, to try to make DS stick to everyone else's house rules at our house just to try to keep the rules consistent for him.

DS just turned 3, and so far he's had no trouble distinguishing between our house rules and other people's house rules. I don't think anything that someone lets their kids do at home/with their own stuff can really be described as "too permissive" -- it's up to the parents' discretion to determine what's acceptable at home.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's Mom* 
I get this, I really do. How does the LO know the difference between what is acceptable at one place isn't at another? I don't know at what age (if there is an age) that they can understand the concept of what is ok at one place and not another.

I don't know what age she could fully understand, but dd always adjusted to these differences fairly easily. Having one set of rules for all places never made sense to me. I think it is ok from the youngest ages....my baby can eat my wallet, but not my friend's wallet, for example







.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's Mom* 
I get this, I really do. How does the LO know the difference between what is acceptable at one place isn't at another? I don't know at what age (if there is an age) that they can understand the concept of what is ok at one place and not another. I guess the only reason why I'm hung up on this is because of my mother....yes, long history of horrible parenting (not that she meant to be one, its just a fact) has got me all screwed up inside.







:

DD is 2, and I doubt she understands yet the difference between "it's ok to do that here but not at your grandmother's house." However, I don't think it's been an issue because I'm not just yelling at her and telling her it's not ok to do something she's accustomed to doing. Instead, I'm putting things out of her reach or redirecting her to other things to do or something similar to that. I'm not even telling her no. So I'm not really worried about being inconsistent. She does not fuss at this either, she just goes with the flow.

I figure that rules in life are in fact not always consistent anyway. It's ok to run in the grass at the park, but not in the parking lot. It's ok to pick your nose at home but not in the grocery store. It's ok to tell mama you don't like her cooking, but not nana. It takes a long, long time to fully distinguish all of those differences. I will just be her guide until then, and hope that she will trust me most of the time, and hope that I will have earned her trust by not putting the pressure on her to understand the differences herself. So I wonder if your parents expected you to know the rules no matter how they changed, and were frustrated/angry when you didn't, rather than simply communicating to you what the rules were when they changed.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Yes, I think permissiveness and ineffectiveness are very different. Permissive parents permit behaviors, ineffective parents cannot stop/redirect behaviors. One allows it, the other does not allow it but fails in the discipline.

This is interesting. I know I have become both more permissive and ineffective since my third child was born. Part of it is that, like today, I just can't follow up on my requests as immediately and calmly as I need to when more than one child needs me. My ds2 is super sick and wants to be held but not jostled or really moved. So when I tell ds1 that I don't want him to eat any more marshmallows, there's not much I can do to get him to comply.

The other part of it, which is sort of permissive, I think, is that I don't want to draw lines in the sand about issues like that because then I tend to get really mad and out of control. This is about myself not having the self-control to remain calm, and I'm sorry my children have to bear the brunt of it, but I also think it's better than flipping out and screaming or spanking them.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's Mom* 
I don't know at what age (if there is an age) that they can understand the concept of what is ok at one place and not another.

I just quoted you in my response above, but requoting this one sentence after I reread it. I think the difference is just that i'm not expecting DD to understand what is ok here and not there. And I'm not telling her that she or her behavior are not ok. So I think that's the critical difference.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's Mom* 
I get this, I really do. How does the LO know the difference between what is acceptable at one place isn't at another? I don't know at what age (if there is an age) that they can understand the concept of what is ok at one place and not another. I guess the only reason why I'm hung up on this is because of my mother....yes, long history of horrible parenting (not that she meant to be one, its just a fact) has got me all screwed up inside.







:


Much younger than you might think. Kids understand when they're at home and when they are not.

Example: When ds was about 15 months, a friend gave us a set of peg puzzles her kids had outgrown. Once ds had figured out the puzzles, he discovered that what he really liked to do was throw the pieces of the puzzle on the wood floor (they made a nice sound??) So _every morning_ for about 10 months, he'd get up, get out the puzzles and throw the pieces across the floor. Every night we'd pick up the pieces before we went to bed (if we picked them up before, he'd just throw them again).

Then we went to my parents for the holidays when he was about 20 months. My mom is blind and thus cannot have toys left in the middle of the floor because it could lead to a dangerous fall. Ds would throw the peg puzzle pieces that they had, and then we would help him clean them up. We would explain that we had to keep them out of grandma's way because grandma couldn't see them and might fall. He got it. He did not keep throwing those pieces.

By the time my kids were 2 or 2 1/2, they were both able to contain their play at my parents house (which we only visit 1-2 x a year because of distance) so as to keep their toys out of the places where grandma walks.

At our house, on the other hand, we're all terrible about picking up (parents as well as kids)! We're always stepping over things left on the floor. So, my kids are able to go from our model (clutter everywhere) to my parents house (must be kept clutter-free) very easily. They complain a lot when I ask them to pick up at home, but they don't complain when I ask them to move their stuff/pick it up for grandma.

I've also taught them the 'one finger touch' for places where they want to explore and the things might be damaged/precious for someone. It's hard (but not impossible) to destroy something with a single finger! I've also taught them that if they want to explore something (e.g., a snow globe at a colleague's house) that might get broken, I will help them do that as much as they need to so they can satisfy their curiosity without damaging someone's stuff.


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## Logan's Mom (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
So I wonder if your parents expected you to know the rules no matter how they changed, and were frustrated/angry when you didn't, rather than simply communicating to you what the rules were when they changed.

My mother parented to such a point that if I followed the rules whether at home or out, that I would be a model child. Here are some examples: only 2 toys out at a time, one for each hand (from the age of 1), on my first birthday she took my bottle away cause the dr said age 1, her idea of being a good parent was to raise an adult (not let me be a child), there was an implicit rule/idea that a child should be seen and not heard, boogers aren't to picked at any time. I can tell you I came from a house that people were amazed that children even lived there, literally, I'm not joking. They thought it was a model home where they could see the children's rooms but no children or people for that matter lived there. Everything had its place. We were spanked, first with a wooden spoon, then a belt, and then a whip (yes a whip) so I come from a very extreme environment and have no model of what is appropriate behavior for GD or otherwise. I'm not asking for sympathy --- really I wish I had a parenting coach to bounce things off --- which is why I really need the on people on this forum. You help me and I thank you.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Yeah, it's hard to say if permissiveness is an objective or subjective description. I call something permissive if the parent is allowing a child to negatively affect a person or property that is not the parent's.

Sorry to shamelessly quote myself, but I thought about this some more, and I have decided for sure that we use the term "permissive" purely subjectively.

Permissiveness is merely being inclined to grant permission. Its original use did not connote being overly lenient. But now it does carry that connotation, but it does not define where the line between being lenient and overly lenient is.

I gave my definition of how I judge it, but it's only my personal definition. I realized that I actually do consider the permissiveness of some behaviors that are between the parent and child to be overly lenient - for example, I would not permit a child to be physically or verbally abusive to me (nor, of course, would I permit myself to act similarly to them). So if I see a child slapping their parent in anger, and the parent allowing it, I consider that (overly) permissive. Same with a child cursing at their parent without any reaction to that. But I'm only bringing this up not because I expect you to agree with me, but just to show that it really is a purely subjective definition. Another parent may well consider me overly permissive if I allow my child to drop food off her plate and onto the floor (something I haven't really bothered to get into a struggle about).

To answer a much earlier question, I'm not so much concerned about what other people think of me and my parenting styles, as much as wanting to ensure that I examine that and feel secure in knowing I am making the right choices. On many things (breastfeeding, or whatever), I don't have to examine it, I already have come to my conclusions and if someone doesn't like it, they can kiss my butt







But discipline is something I haven't considered in great detail, and even if I instinctively think I'm doing ok, if a lot of other people don't think so, I'd like to at least examine it before dismissing it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Much younger than you might think. Kids understand when they're at home and when they are not.

Example: When ds was about 15 months, a friend gave us a set of peg puzzles her kids had outgrown. Once ds had figured out the puzzles, he discovered that what he really liked to do was throw the pieces of the puzzle on the wood floor (they made a nice sound??) So _every morning_ for about 10 months, he'd get up, get out the puzzles and throw the pieces across the floor. Every night we'd pick up the pieces before we went to bed (if we picked them up before, he'd just throw them again).

Then we went to my parents for the holidays when he was about 20 months. My mom is blind and thus cannot have toys left in the middle of the floor because it could lead to a dangerous fall. Ds would throw the peg puzzle pieces that they had, and then we would help him clean them up. We would explain that we had to keep them out of grandma's way because grandma couldn't see them and might fall. He got it. He did not keep throwing those pieces.

By the time my kids were 2 or 2 1/2, they were both able to contain their play at my parents house (which we only visit 1-2 x a year because of distance) so as to keep their toys out of the places where grandma walks.

At our house, on the other hand, we're all terrible about picking up (parents as well as kids)! We're always stepping over things left on the floor. So, my kids are able to go from our model (clutter everywhere) to my parents house (must be kept clutter-free) very easily. They complain a lot when I ask them to pick up at home, but they don't complain when I ask them to move their stuff/pick it up for grandma.

I've also taught them the 'one finger touch' for places where they want to explore and the things might be damaged/precious for someone. It's hard (but not impossible) to destroy something with a single finger! I've also taught them that if they want to explore something (e.g., a snow globe at a colleague's house) that might get broken, I will help them do that as much as they need to so they can satisfy their curiosity without damaging someone's stuff.

To this I wanted to say: this meshes with our experience exactly. And we LOVE the one finger touch in this family.









My son is almost 28 months and he has understood for a while that there are different rules at different houses. Does he know what they are instinctively? No, we have to tell him. And does he turn into angel baby when out and follow them all the time? No. But he does get it. Kids are scary smart that way.

To the more general question: to me negative permissiveness means you don't intervene or you can't intervene effectively _when something is important to you_.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan's Mom* 
My mother parented to such a point that if I followed the rules whether at home or out, that I would be a model child. Here are some examples: only 2 toys out at a time, one for each hand (from the age of 1), on my first birthday she took my bottle away cause the dr said age 1, her idea of being a good parent was to raise an adult (not let me be a child), there was an implicit rule/idea that a child should be seen and not heard, boogers aren't to picked at any time. I can tell you I came from a house that people were amazed that children even lived there, literally, I'm not joking. They thought it was a model home where they could see the children's rooms but no children or people for that matter lived there. Everything had its place. We were spanked, first with a wooden spoon, then a belt, and then a whip (yes a whip) so I come from a very extreme environment and have no model of what is appropriate behavior for GD or otherwise. I'm not asking for sympathy --- really I wish I had a parenting coach to bounce things off --- which is why I really need the on people on this forum. You help me and I thank you.









I know you weren't looking for sympathy, but I'm sorry anyway.

I can understand struggling with these items when you didn't have a good model for it. I struggle in my marriage for similar reasons.

I wonder how many of us here in this community have chosen NFL specifically because they wanted to do better than their own parents did. And if that number is signficantly different from the groups of people who follow different parenting/family/life philosophies. I don't know if it is, but I do wonder.

I think that above everything else, truly caring about your children and their needs is the crux of it all. I think that if a parent makes mistakes or is not perfect - yelling, maybe, or being inconsistent about rules, or being easily irritated by stupid stuff - while it's obviously not ideal, if the parent consistently shows they care for their children, all is well. It's the inconsistent examples [ETA: I mean inconsistent CARE and LOVE for the children, not necessarily inconsistent discipline or rules] (parents who withdraw their love if their child misbehaves, gets pregnant, whatever) or the ones who consistently demonstrate otherwise (cares more about how other people view their homes, etc.) that have really done damage.


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## Logan's Mom (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
To this I wanted to say: this meshes with our experience exactly. And we LOVE the one finger touch in this family.









Love it -- a new concept!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 







I know you weren't looking for sympathy, but I'm sorry anyway.

I wonder how many of us here in this community have chosen NFL specifically because they wanted to do better than their own parents did.

Thank you and I wonder too....its great that we have found people who have like interests!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
The other part of it, which is sort of permissive, I think, is that I don't want to draw lines in the sand about issues like that because then I tend to get really mad and out of control. This is about myself not having the self-control to remain calm, and I'm sorry my children have to bear the brunt of it, but I also think it's better than flipping out and screaming or spanking them.

This is smart use of the resources you have. You can't be two people when you are only one person, and you can't have three hands.


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## L'lee (Dec 6, 2005)

I think that what some of you were saying earlier about "authority" was interesting. I think of authority and I don't automatically see a bad thing. Certainly you can have Authoritative parents who are bossy and expect children to do as they say as soon as they say it or _SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES_...

However, I think that there's another kind of authority that stems from respect. Because, no matter what, we ARE the parents and they know that. They admire us and learn from us. Hopefully, eventually, they will respect us enough that they will WANT to be like us!









When I was about 20, I knew a woman who I would call permissive and ineffective, and it was really hard to watch. She really did have her kids' best interests in her heart, and she was a REALLY nice person to be around and talk to as another adult, but she didn't have the ability to get her children out of unsafe situations or to get them to be respectful of themselves and others. It was really hard to see. I learned a lot from observing and thinking about what I would do differently or the same as her. It's very interesting trying to find this balance.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I think I am "reformingly permissive"







. I am trying to add some learning and responsibility in to the mix with the messes and other things I allow DD to do that others might not, if that makes sense.

Example: If I do not care that DD is pulling a bunch of office supplies out of a drawer, and figure they're just as good as "actual" toys, then I also ask her to clean them up when she's done. So, I'm not forbidding something just because it's a pain to clean up, but I'm also not being lazy and letting her make a mess without any consequences (which means I have to do more work & clean it up), kwim?

Another scenario: If I feel myself letting her do something because I fear her reaction at me pulling her away from it, like climbing up a stool or something dangerous, I try to instead "teach" her that what she is doing is not allowed. I say, "put your feet on the floor please" "sit your bottom down" or "you can sit on the step" (instead of going up the stairs). A lot of times she will point up the stairs and say "no" and smile and sit down where I said she could.

I don't know if that makes sense the way I explained it but I am really learning a lot about how much she can understand, and that I need to respect her in the process of "disciplining", or whatever you want to call it. Pulling her physically or taking something away from her will get a lot of kicking and screaming and teach her nothing. But talking to her about it gets cooperation 90% of the time, and she learns!

The way this relates to permissiveness, as I see it, is that I would allow these things out of laziness to avoid conflict, if I were being permissive. Teaching natural consequences and cooperation is neither lazy/permissize nor harsh/strict. Please correct me if I'm off-track here.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
This is smart use of the resources you have. You can't be two people when you are only one person, and you can't have three hands.

Thank you for reframing it for me more positively! You're right, you are Captain Optimism!

And I gotta work on growing that third hand!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I don't think that the inability or failure to control a child's behavior is necessarily persmissiveness, in and of itself. Some children are more challenging than others, and sometimes we just cannot manage a child's behavior. If the parent has consistant expectations, and responds constructively to misbehavior -- they are not permissive. Each child has the ability to push the envelope if they so choose. I think it is problematical to judge parenting based on children's behavior.

Thank you for this Mamaduck. We had a rough weekend with dd1 behaving in ways that were extremely inappropriate and at a loss for how to respond. I just could not help but being very judgemental about my parenting yesterday. But I agree with you, parenting cannot be judged only on the basis of behaviour. I was being hard on myself... need to do better today.









As for the difference between being permissive and ineffective, I think it is more in theory than in actual practice. I do not think anyone will choose permissiveness as a superior parenting style. I have not met one mama who would say "Yeah! I want to allow my child to do whatever he pleases. That will make him a great adult!"







I have met many, many parents who did not put aside the resources in terms of time and energy, to be effective in their parenting.







Also, I meet a lot of parents who are giving up (perhaps for just one hour, one day or one week) on their children because their children have completely spent their resources to parent them.

In this sense, I see how ineffectiveness leads to not caring consistently for your children - hence permissiveness. I think in many ways permissiveness is the result of ineffectiveness. Some parents after trying and trying to teach manners, eventually give up... it is sad.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

This thread has really had me thinking, since yesterday, about WHY so many parents are hung up on worrying that Gentle Discipline is permissive parenting.

I recall some really good info. I got on another thread here -- about 2 different worldviews: the individualistic (or is it individuistic?) and the integrative.

The *individualistic* is the one many of us grew up with: it's the idea that we're all inherently bad/selfish, and just really want to get our own way at the expense of everyone else. In this view, the only way to get a child to be caring and responsible, is to punish negative behavior and reward positive behavior (behaviorism) -- because children are seen as having no intrinsic motivation to help others or be cooperative.

The *integrative* is the view that I think undergirds the whole premise of gentle discipline: it's the idea that we actually come into this world with a desire to have caring, loving relationships with others. That we want to help and cooperate ... we just need adult guidance in learning how to get the things we want/need in ways that are respectful of others, and we need help learning to see things from others' perspectives.

I think that among those of us who've rejected spanking and punishment as being unkind, disrespectful, and ineffective in the long run, we're all at different places in our worldviews. Some still have a more individualistic world view, some (I think those who were raised with more Gentle Discipline themselves) have got a real headstart in seeing their children as little people who are good but just need guidance. And many people are somewhere in between.

As to the authority issue: I think there are 2 views of parental authority. One (which fits more with the individualistic worldview and behaviorism) is the idea that children need to learn their parents are boss. The other (which fits more with the integrative worldview and Gentle Discipline) is the idea that children need to be able to trust that their parents are valuable resources for helping them to understand and navigate the world.

As an example, on another thread here I shared about a problem we're having because our 2yo thinks it's hilariously funny to run into the street. I got some really good advice, to think about what need she's trying to fill -- and the suggestion that maybe it's the fun of being chased. So I'm playing more chase games with dd in our fenced-in yard, where it's safe.

And, of course, I continue to talk with her about the dangers of running into the street, and I continue to protect her from harm.

I think someone with a more *individualistic* wordlview would see the issue as: the child who still doesn't understand the dangers of running into the street, needs to learn, "I don't run into the street because Mommy says no and she's boss."

In contrast, I think someone with a more *integrative* worldview would see the issue as: the child who still doesn't understand the dangers of running into the street (or who doesn't understand how pulling hair or biting hurts, etcetera), can nevertheless see that certain behaviors are very upsetting to the people who love her and whom she loves.

My goal is not for my child to see me as her *boss*: I'd rather she see me as her *facilitator*: as someone who wants to help her to be happy, to enjoy life and have fun, and to have good relationships with others.

My hope is that in situations where she lacks the experience to understand WHY certain behaviors are potentially harmful, she'll come to trust in my guidance, and trust that since I'm always trying to help her get the things she wants, if there's something I'm guiding her away from, there must be a good reason why that particular thing is not in her best interests.

Another thing I'm learning is that there are two views of resources/happiness. I think the individualistic/behavioristic worldview sees resources and happiness as finite, as things everyone has to compete for. For some to "win," others have to "lose." Parents with this view, tend to talk about teaching children that sometimes other's needs and wants "trump" their needs and wants.

In the finite view, self-control means learning to sacrifice your desires sometimes, because it's the only way other people can ever get their "turn" to be happy.

I think the integrative/gentle discipline worldview sees happiness and resources as potentially infinite (while recognizing we all have human limitations and sometimes the day ends before we've found a solution to a conflict or problem). In this view, rather than thinking of one person's need as "trumping" everyone else's, we think in terms of finding ways to help everyone be happy.

For example, a baby's need to nurse is urgent: she needs to be latched on right away. But that doesn't mean Baby's need has to "trump" the 3yo's need/desire for some attention from Mommy. There may need to be adjustments, depending on what kind of attention/interaction the 3yo's asking for, and what this particular Mommy's physically capable of doing while nursing.

But if the mother approaches the situation as an opportunity for both her and her children to exercise their creativity, rather than as an opportunity to teach the 3yo, "You've just been 'trumped' by your baby sister, and it's time you learned it's not all about you" -- I just see so much more potential for positive relationships and outcomes.

In the integrative worldview, I think self-control means learning to see conflicts as opportunities for growth, and learning to have faith that there are enough love and happiness to go around, rather than resorting to grasping for "what I can get" at others' expense.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

of2mindsmama said:


> -Let my kids (even dd who is just 3) color with permanent markers. We did have to restrict dd's a bit when she went off the paper a lot this week and got permanent marker all over our wood floor (anybody got any idea how to get sharpie out of a wood floor?),
> 
> hi lynn
> 
> ...


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaB2C* 
I have a sort of three-question test as to whether or not some behavior or action should be allowed. DS is almost 2.

1. Will it hurt DS
2. Will it hurt someone else
3. Will it irreparably damage/destroy an object (sure they're just things, but things cost money and can be useful so I don't want them destroyed.)

So, there are many things I don't care about- like making a mess with food or toys, or playing in puddles/mud, or making a lot of noise in the privacy of his own home- that some others think should be stopped, but they can't give me a rational reason. They think I am permissive...but DS is a great kid so I don't care what they think.


I am so with you on this. but frankly, you practically can't win the permissive/not permissive game. when i tried to co-sleep, some people said i was foolish for trying to do it. when i gave up on co-sleeping because my dd didn't like sharing her personal space...others criticised me for not co-sleeping. i didn't feed my dd by hand because my failing-to-thrive dd insisted on eating on her own....my indian friends thought it was shockingly neglectful. now i'm happy as a clam that dd will allow me to feed her and help her increase her food intake...my american friends think it's insanly indulgent. i'm following my child's cues, and responding to her individual needs-- not anyones ideas or theories. to me, that's responsible parenting. however, i'm sure there's someone out there who would beg to differ.

xoe


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## Logan's Mom (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
i didn't feed my dd by hand because my failing-to-thrive dd insisted on eating on her own....my indian friends thought it was shockingly neglectful. now i'm happy as a clam that dd will allow me to feed her and help her increase her food intake...my american friends think it's insanly indulgent.
xoe

interesting insight to cultural differences -- thanks for sharing!!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I am so with you on this. but frankly, you practically can't win the permissive/not permissive game. when i tried to co-sleep, some people said i was foolish for trying to do it. when i gave up on co-sleeping because my dd didn't like sharing her personal space...others criticised me for not co-sleeping. i didn't feed my dd by hand because my failing-to-thrive dd insisted on eating on her own....my indian friends thought it was shockingly neglectful. now i'm happy as a clam that dd will allow me to feed her and help her increase her food intake...my american friends think it's insanly indulgent. i'm following my child's cues, and responding to her individual needs-- not anyones ideas or theories. to me, that's responsible parenting. however, i'm sure there's someone out there who would beg to differ.
We really can't win! Thats true, if we are seeking approval. One of the hardest things about being a mother is the fact that its a highly scrutinzed and judged position in this world, combined with the fact that we just "can't please everyone." Parenting styles aside, life gets much easier when you let accept the fact that _it really doesn't matter what people think._

That said, I do think that exploring the characteristics and definitions of various parenting styles is interesting and helpful just in terms of self-evaluation.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
In the integrative worldview, I think self-control means learning to see conflicts as opportunities for growth, and learning to have faith that there are enough love and happiness to go around, rather than resorting to grasping for "what I can get" at others' expense.

I agree with your "weltanshauung" and you also put it beautifully. It is also true as you say that people who are raised GD have a natural tendency to see how it is possible to find a solution that meets everyone's needs, rather than trumping one's needs over and above those of others. If there is a thing I say over and over, when I am with the kids, and they ask for something that requires adjustment, it is "let's see if there is a way". Usually, I need to give in something and they need to give in something too. I do not think this is permissiveness.

I think, as I said in my earlier post, permissiveness ensues from a lack of resources and skills, when a parent feels overwhelmed and is no longer capable of finding a solution that satisfies the needs of all, and lets the needs and whims of his/her child take priority.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
I agree with your "weltanshauung"

What a lovely word! Is it Welsh, or from one of the other Celtic languages? I'd love to learn more!

Quote:

I think, as I said in my earlier post, permissiveness ensues from a lack of resources and skills, when a parent feels overwhelmed and is no longer capable of finding a solution that satisfies the needs of all, and lets the needs and whims of his/her child take priority.
True in some cases -- though I don't see an occasional overwhelmed time as indicative of overall permissiveness or bad parenting.

Also, some permissive parents seem not exactly overwhelmed -- but more uncaring, being off into their own pursuits and not wanting to devote time and attention to their kids.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
What a lovely word! Is it Welsh, or from one of the other Celtic languages? I'd love to learn more!

It is German. It means "the framework of ideas and beliefs through which an individual interprets the world and interacts in it". You can learn more from this Wikipedia page!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Also, some permissive parents seem not exactly overwhelmed -- but more uncaring, being off into their own pursuits and not wanting to devote time and attention to their kids.

I know what you mean. Like there are mamas who just let their kids watch TV all day not for a specific choice they may have made but really just so that they can have peace to do their thing. That is one aspect of it, I also see a lot of the other aspect, namely, moms that are so unable to get their kids to mind their requests, that they prefer not to even utter them.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
It is German. It means "the framework of ideas and beliefs through which an individual interprets the world and interacts in it". You can learn more from this Wikipedia page!

Thanks for the link! And mothering is definitely taking me on a journey of readjusting my weltanschauung!

I started out trusting my new baby's communications and impulses, and as she grew, I trusted that she knew when she was ready to walk, potty-train, etcetera. I also trusted that her toddler explorations didn't stem from an evil desire to stress or inconvenience me.

Then she got a little older, and I started clicking back into my old weltanschauung that saw human nature as inherently bad and in need of "reinforcements" to do the right things. But moving back into that perspective was kind of like pouring new wine into old wineskins (to borrow a Biblical analogy). It didn't fit with the new me.

So I'm now learning to keep trusting my children as they grow. It's still sometimes easy to slip into that old pattern of making threats, etcetera. But it never really fits. So I just keep giving myself second chances, just as I give my loved ones. We all just keep learning.


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