# School age kids and booster seats?



## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

My DD's are 5 and almost 7 years old and are still in boosters at this point. Can anyone tell me what the top recommended or safety tested booster is for this age? At what age did you stop putting your DC in a booster or carseat. We have been using a high back graco so far. Just wondering what booster seats do you swear by.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Can anyone tell me what the top recommended or safety tested booster is for this age?

Sorry, no answers there, but I imagine there is a consumer reports on the web somewhere? We use a Graco as well and are just getting ready to try and take off the back... last time I tried (about six months ago), the seat belt still didn't hit DS in the right place so the back went back on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
At what age did you stop putting your DC in a booster or carseat.

Although age is involved, it also depends on the child's size and the type of seat you have in your car. We have a Saturn where the backseat is slanted down in the back so it makes it a bit challenging. DS is on the small side so the booster seat will remain a staple for us for awhile to come I believe. DS is 7 1/2.

Best of luck,
Em


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

In Utah it is now law to have your child in a car seat or booster until age 8.

We love our Britax Regent. (There is a car seat safety forum on MDC, too.) --subforum called Family Safety.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

5 and 6 wouldn't be "older" in my book for boosters. I plan to still have my kids harnessed at those ages- not even in boosters yet.

-Angela


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

The CDC recommendation is to use a booster seat until 58 inches (sitting height 29 inches) and 80 lbs. According the growth curve our ds is on, he'll hit the height limit at about age 9, but he won't hit the weight limit until about age 12! (He's tall and thin.) I have no idea what we're going to do.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
5 and 6 wouldn't be "older" in my book for boosters. I plan to still have my kids harnessed at those ages- not even in boosters yet.

-Angela

To each their own.







They were harnessed until five after that we switched to high back boosters, I'm okay with it. IS aid the same thing when mine we not that age yet. I would just like to get them a new one. My six year old does complain that none of her friends use boosters and she is going into the second grade (I guess that's suppose to matter to me).


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

I thought the law was 8 years or 4'9". Perhaps that is just our state.

I know my nephew was still in a booster when he weighed 145 pounds because he hadn't met his state's age requirement and he was/is obese and tall.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I thought the law was 8 years or 4'9". Perhaps that is just our state.

I know my nephew was still in a booster when he weighed 145 pounds because he hadn't met his state's age requirement and he was/is obese and tall.

My great-niece is also tall and obese. She simply could not fit into a booster (this was right before her 7th birthday that we discovered she was over the limit). We tried to find an appropriate booster. We went to the Sheriff's dept. to talk to their car seat tech about what my niece (the mother) should do. He said that once the child reaches the limits of the booster seat (the highest is 100lbs.) then they should simply go into a seatbelt... that is was more dangerous to be over the limit in a booster.

Our state has the same laws, but there are exceptions.


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## Kelly Jene (Jun 8, 2008)

Our state law is 4'9" or 90lbs. Ds (7yo) will definitely reach 4'9" way before 90lbs, he's such a small guy.

Even if it wasn't the law, we'd still have him in a booster as the seatbelt does not fit right yet.


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## sarahmae1 (Nov 11, 2002)

My 7yr. old uses a highback Graco turbobooster too, even though NO ONE else he knows has to be in one at his age. Legally, in my state even my 4yr. old could be riding in just the seat belt. He's still harnessed! I think the Turboboosters are good economical boosters.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
5 and 6 wouldn't be "older" in my book for boosters. I plan to still have my kids harnessed at those ages- not even in boosters yet.

-Angela

You'll have to see what sizes they are. My 5 year old is 51 lbs, no way would she be fitting in a harness. The highest weight level I found for a harness is 47 lbs which both my kids stayed in until they hit that weight. My 7.5 year old is 54 lbs and he is still in a high-backed booster and will be for quite awhile.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
You'll have to see what sizes they are. My 5 year old is 51 lbs, no way would she be fitting in a harness. The highest weight level I found for a harness is 47 lbs which both my kids stayed in until they hit that weight. My 7.5 year old is 54 lbs and he is still in a high-backed booster and will be for quite awhile.

Are you in Canada?

Not sure if the OP is or not- I assumed not, but I could be wrong...









We have harnessed seats in the US up to 80lbs (the regent....)

-Angela


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## craftymom (Jun 27, 2005)

Jeca,
This was me too, but then practicality whacked me in the face (can't refuse to host playdates, can't buy a minivan, and I just can't be paranoid because I get so nervous and lose weight when I worry about the might-bes)! Mine are now 5.5 and 8.5, and both in Graco boosters. The 5.5yo only rides in the high back, the 8.5yo usually is in the backless/popup. He prefers the high back for long trips (more comfy for snoozing), but is truly about to outgrow the back. My 8.5yo is more comfy NOT in a booster in grandma's truck--it has a "short" backseat (the kind very uncomfy for adults) and he fits great in it--it also has a built-in seatbelt adjuster. He also has ridden in the back middle of our car without the booster when ds5.5 has friend come home. That seat is funny and feels higher up (that good old back middle), and it works. I cannot get 3 car seats in my back seat safely--I also can't put 2 huge Britax and a third child. There is no way to buckle that 3rd child's belt.

My 8.5 has a seated height of 27", my 5.5yo is 22" (he came into the booster last year when he outgrew his harness seat that fit soooo nicely in the car, boo-hoo!). They are both all torso in height, with short legs, so THANKS to whoever posted that info. They are both like their grandpa









My 8yo has many friends still in boosters. We all make it very casual and normal--I have 2 pop-up boosters in my car, and the 8yos ride in those. I actually don't give them a choice, and they just sit. I think the law here is 6 or 60, but they constantly advertise 4'9" on TV. FWIW, my 8.5 yo is 57 pounds! With ds5.5's friends, everyone is in boosters with a few in harnesses. We have never had kids tease, I think I am lucky.

Just about every state has different laws.

E: can't spell

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
To each their own.







They were harnessed until five after that we switched to high back boosters, I'm okay with it. IS aid the same thing when mine we not that age yet. I would just like to get them a new one. My six year old does complain that none of her friends use boosters and she is going into the second grade (I guess that's suppose to matter to me).


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

My oldest will be 9 in 3 weeks and he's still in a high back booster, even though the law here says till 8 or 80lbs, and most people interpret that to mean 8yrs. He weighs about 60lbs I think and is average height for his age. There are boosters that go up to 120lbs. My almost 5 year old is in a Britax Regent after outgrowing by height his up to 65lb harnessed seat (he weighs less than 40lbs, though, just has a REALLY long torso.) I didn't think he was ready for a booster. The Graco Nautilus came out just before I got him the Regent and I may have gotten that instead if I had seen it before I got the Regent. It looks like a really nice seat and converts to a hb and lb booster after the harness is outgrown. My almost 9 year old is just barely too big for the harness if that gives you an idea of how long it will harness. And like I said, he's average size for his age.

He's in a $60 Britax Parkway booster we got at Albeebaby.com. It's one of the collegiate ones, I think Georgia Tech. We chose by color, not school.







http://www.albeebaby.com/britax-park...niversity.html He was VERY uncomfortable in his Graco Turbobooster b/c the back was too narrow for him. Even though the Parkway looks narrower and takes up less space, he's MUCH more comfortable in it. And the wings are nice to nap in on long trips.







It's amzing how little space it takes up. If I had room issues and needed 2 in boosters, it's a great seat. This one is also similar, I think: http://www.albeebaby.com/fisher-pric...-tan-tech.html But it has armrests, which are unnecessary and take up more room, imo.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:

5 and 6 wouldn't be "older" in my book for boosters. I plan to still have my kids harnessed at those ages- not even in boosters yet.

-Angela
ITA. Not too mention there's still a good chance my peanut may even be rearfacing still. It really is in your child's best interest to remain harnessed as long as possible. There's a youtube video on this but I don't have the link handy.

Unless you're not in the U.S.* there are quite a few good options for high weight harnessed seats. Britax Regent, Britax Frontier, and Radian off the top of my head.

*Not that you can't find quality seats elsewhere, just that I'm not knowledgeable on seats legal in other countries to know which ones would/wouldn't work.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
ITA. Not too mention there's still a good chance my peanut may even be rearfacing still. It really is in your child's best interest to remain harnessed as long as possible. There's a youtube video on this but I don't have the link handy.

.

A rear facing 6 year old? If you have the link about that I'd be curious. I haven't seen a kid that old rear facing since the volvo wagons had that trunk seat that faced out the back window!

What I've read shows that after the age of 2 kids are just as safe in a booster with a car seat belt as in a 5 pt harness. I *feel* safer keeping my kids in the 5 pt harness much longer, but haven't actually seen that it is either helpful or hurtful so I go with my gut.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly Jene* 
Our state law is 4'9" or 90lbs. Ds (7yo) will definitely reach 4'9" way before 90lbs, he's such a small guy.

Even if it wasn't the law, we'd still have him in a booster as the seatbelt does not fit right yet.

Yeah that. DD is almost 8 and we just went back to the booster. she will stay in it a while.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Moved to family safety


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
What I've read shows that after the age of 2 kids are just as safe in a booster with a car seat belt as in a 5 pt harness. I *feel* safer keeping my kids in the 5 pt harness much longer, but haven't actually seen that it is either helpful or hurtful so I go with my gut.

Good lord, I wish that Freakonomics guy would just disappear and take all his media with him







:

A two year old IS NOT SAFE in a booster. Period. Sorry to be rude, but that guy just chaps my hide and this is the third thread in two days that I have read about him.

To the OP, you want a booster with good SIP that adjusts nice and high. The Recaro Vivo, Britax Parkway or Monarch, and Sunshine Kids Monterrey are all very nice boosters. Children need to remain in boosters until they can pass the 5 step test.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
G
To the OP, you want a booster with good SIP that adjusts nice and high. The Recaro Vivo, Britax Parkway or Monarch, and Sunshine Kids Radian are all very nice boosters. Children need to remain in boosters until they can pass the 5 step test.

Thanks!
I'm not interested in switching back to a 5 point harness we did it until they were five and now that they are all in school the high back booster is what works for us. I just didn't research it and now I would like to know what's the best out there since I'm looking for new carseats.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Thanks!
I'm not interested in switching back to a 5 point harness we did it until they were five and now that they are all in school the high back booster is what works for us. I just didn't research it and now I would like to know what's the best out there since I'm looking for new carseats.

Oops, I meant Sunshine Kids Monterrey. That's a booster. The other 2 are boosters too


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

The SK Radian is a convertible, not a booster, but the others she listed are boosters.







THe Sunshine Kids Monterey is another really good booster. AnAurora, I assume you meant to type Monterey, but are so used to typing Radian after Sunshine Kids, that's what you typed. LOL


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

LOL cross posting


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221* 
The SK Radian is a convertible, not a booster, but the others she listed are boosters.







THe Sunshine Kids Monterey is another really good booster. AnAurora, I assume you meant to type Monterey, but are so used to typing Radian after Sunshine Kids, that's what you typed. LOL

lol yes I did mean the Monterey, like you said I am so used to typing Radian!


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

My two kids, 8yrs and 5 yrs were in boosters and I never would have considered moving them to a five point harness either. Then I saw this...






Now they're riding in Britax regents and even the 8 yr old likes it and says it's SO comfy. I couldn't imagine having the knowlege in this video, not using it and having something happen and being left with so much regret.
Just my 2 cents.

If you decide to get one, do it at hipmonkey.com and they give the proceeds to Kyle's foundation. http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/ they have boosters there too.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
What I've read shows that after the age of 2 kids are just as safe in a booster with a car seat belt as in a 5 pt harness.

Absolutely and totally (frighteningly) false.

EVERYONE is safer in a 5pt harness than a 3 pt belt.

And everyone is safer rf (just kind of hard to drive that way







). My dd was rear facing until she maxed out her seat at 3.5yrs.

-Angela


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
A rear facing 6 year old? If you have the link about that I'd be curious. I haven't seen a kid that old rear facing since the volvo wagons had that trunk seat that faced out the back window!

Any child who is within the rear-facing restrictions for their seat can ride rear-facing. So a six-year-old who is under 35 pounds and has an inch of shell above their head? Not common, maybe, but definitely possible. Hmmm... the 3rd percentile on the CDC charts hits 35 pounds at age 5y11m for girls, so yeah, about 2.5% of girls will get to age 6 without exceeding the rear-facing weight limit of several convertible seats. They might outgrow by height before then, of course.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

We have 2 Parkways for our 5.5yo twin boys, but they're mostly just emergency back ups. My boys are currently in Regents and I plan to keep them there til they outgrow them. They've sat in the Parkways like twice, and both times they didn't know what the heck to do. I don't think they're ready to be out of a harness. And I know I'm not ready!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
My DD's are 5 and 6 years old and are still in boosters at this point. Can anyone tell me what the top recommended or safety tested booster is for this age? At what age did you stop putting your DC in a booster or carseat. We have been using a high back graco so far. Just wondering what booster seats do you swear by.

we had a Britax Monarch that would have probably been good until around age 8 but we now have an Ollie CLek that my son is in at 10. I suspect he will be in it for at least another year...he's 4'6 and 70 lbs.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I wouldn't consider 5-6 yr. olds "older kids" either. My son is 5.5 and still in a harness. I'm about to buy him a booster for carpooling (the SK Monterey, which goes to 120 lbs.) but he'll be in a 5 pt. harness in my car until 7, at least. He'll remain in a booster until he outgrows it-- I'll consider a backless booster in other cars around 80 lbs./8, but I think he'll be 10-12 before he is in just a seatbelt. He's 45" and 46 lbs. now.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

I still have my 8 y o who is 65 lbs in a booster. Granted, it's just an elevated booster, not w/ a back. The ones with a back do not fit him well, no matter what we've tried...w/a carseat tech. But w/o the booster, the seatbelt cuts across his neck.

My younger one is 4 and only about 35#. He is in a Boulevard.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milkmommie* 






Now they're riding in Britax regents and even the 8 yr old likes it and says it's SO comfy. I couldn't imagine having the knowlege in this video, not using it and having something happen and being left with so much regret.
Just my 2 cents.

If you decide to get one, do it at hipmonkey.com and they give the proceeds to Kyle's foundation. http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/ they have boosters there too.

He was 3.5 and would have still been in a harness here but I agree it is something to think about.








My oldest DD will be 7 in september It will be hard to get her back into a harness.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
A rear facing 6 year old? If you have the link about that I'd be curious. I haven't seen a kid that old rear facing since the volvo wagons had that trunk seat that faced out the back window!

What I've read shows that after the age of 2 kids are just as safe in a booster with a car seat belt as in a 5 pt harness. I *feel* safer keeping my kids in the 5 pt harness much longer, but haven't actually seen that it is either helpful or hurtful so I go with my gut.

What in the world have you been reading that said THAT?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Ok so I have been looking at all the carseats even the harnesses but it wouldn't work. I don't have $250+ per child to get them new harnessed seats. I was thinking more along the lines of $100 each and nothing in a harness fits that budget. $500 just wouldn't work right now.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Ok so I have been looking at all the carseats even the harnesses but it wouldn't work. I don't have $250+ per child to get them new harnessed seats. I was thinking more along the lines of $100 each and nothing in a harness fits that budget. $500 just wouldn't work right now.

The Graco Nautilus is ~$150.
How old and what size are your kids?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
The Graco Nautilus is ~$150.
How old and what size are your kids?

One will be 7 in september she is 46 inches tall, not really sure on her weight right now but it's over 40 pounds since she is heavier than her last physical and she was somewhere around there then. The other is 40.5 inches and turned five in march.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Ok so I have been looking at all the carseats even the harnesses but it wouldn't work. I don't have $250+ per child to get them new harnessed seats. I was thinking more along the lines of $100 each and nothing in a harness fits that budget. $500 just wouldn't work right now.

I think your older dd probably won't fit in a harness long enough to make it worth the extra money, unless she's short or has a short torso. She's old enough to be in a high back booster and be very safe in it, imo. There is nothing wrong with the Graco high back booster she's in, it's not a bad one at all. However, for your 5 yo, I WOULD consider getting a Nautilus. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=8112222 Free shipping to your local store, where you can also return it w/ no problems if it doesn't work out. And if you still would like a nicer booster for your older dd, I still recommend the Parkway that my ds has. They have been discontinued, which is why they're so cheap right now, though, so I don't know what colors are left. Maybe not any that would be appealing to a girl, but you could match your car and point out that your car seat isn't girly.







There's also this one, which looks like it has excellent side impact protection. http://www.albeebaby.com/recaro-vivo...eat-blush.html

Good luck with your decision!


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

My two "older" kids are almost 5 and 7 they both ride in Regents in our van and have quite a growing ways to go.

As for boosters, we have Compass B510's ( I think I'm blanking on the exact numbers but the fancy ones) they are about 100 bucks a piece and go to 100 pounds, they also have an adjustable back to accomodate different height kids.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Any thoughts on this? Or a website where I can find out the crash specs on it?
http://www.albeebaby.com/sa1stap65boc1.html
It says the harness can be used up to 65 pounds if I'm not mistaken. I


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Your oldest is about the same size as my 5.5 yr. old (46", 45 lbs.) A harness would definitely be safer and would last her a good while (my son has a 16" torso and the Nautilus has 18.5" top slots, so that's about 2 years-- probably more for your daughter since she's so petite), but I also think a good high back booster is safe if she sits up straight, with the belt tight, and stays awake, all of the time. I really like the SK Monterey, the Britax Monarch, and the Recaro Vivo boosters. The first two are about as expensive as the Nautilus, though.

Your younger one should definitely be in a harness, at only 40". I'd get a couple Nautiluses and put them both back in harnesses. Walmart.com (I know, evil, but if money is the issue here, your kids' safety is worth shopping there) has them for $127.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

My son uses an Apex at his dad's house (who lives out of state, so not a lot), and while it's okay, the nautilus is much better, with higher top slots (18.5" vs. 17") and a stronger frame. You need headrests in your car to use the Apex because it's headrest isn't reinforced. It's a pretty flimsy seat. There weren't as many options for past 40 lb. harnessing when we bought it (2.5-3 yrs. ago). The Nautilus is only $17 more and definitely worth it.
I saw a code on this board for the Nautilus at $117 a few days ago-- you could see if that still works!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Any thoughts on this? Or a website where I can find out the crash specs on it?
http://www.albeebaby.com/sa1stap65boc1.html
It says the harness can be used up to 65 pounds if I'm not mistaken. I

It's okay. But your car MUST have headrests to use it.

The nautilus is MUCH nicer.

-Angela


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 

What I've read shows that after the age of 2 kids are just as safe in a booster with a car seat belt as in a 5 pt harness. I *feel* safer keeping my kids in the 5 pt harness much longer, but haven't actually seen that it is either helpful or hurtful so I go with my gut.

i really hope no one reading this believes its true. 5 pt. harness has been proven over and over to be safer. there is a reason race car drivers are in 5 pt. harnesses also.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Any thoughts on this? Or a website where I can find out the crash specs on it?
http://www.albeebaby.com/sa1stap65boc1.html
It says the harness can be used up to 65 pounds if I'm not mistaken. I

The harness isn't very tall. Your 5 year old may already be too tall for it.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i really hope no one reading this believes its true. 5 pt. harness has been proven over and over to be safer. there is a reason race car drivers are in 5 pt. harnesses also.

I believe those harnesses are part of the car, just as the pilot's harness in an airplane. Of course a 5 pt harness is better than a 3 pt (Such as a stoller or like you use in a car) but the issue is adding other items to the cars safety system.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i really hope no one reading this believes its true. 5 pt. harness has been proven over and over to be safer. there is a reason race car drivers are in 5 pt. harnesses also.

She's referring to the Freakonomics guy Steven Levitt, mentioned in the other thread. And you are right, it is absolutely not true that a 2 year old is safe in a booster. The other thread ("Interesting car-safety idea for children over 2") discusses why in more detail.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I believe those harnesses are part of the car, just as the pilot's harness in an airplane. Of course a 5 pt harness is better than a 3 pt (Such as a stoller or like you use in a car) but the issue is adding other items to the cars safety system.

There are downsides to having built in items also. Are you aware that seatbelts (and built in carseats...) are single use items? Technically they must be replaced after even a minor crash.

-Angela


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
It's okay. But your car MUST have headrests to use it.

I have a honda Odyssey so every seat has a headrest. I will go measure the girls again on the height issue.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
I have a honda Odyssey so every seat has a headrest. I will go measure the girls again on the height issue.




















-Angela


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I believe those harnesses are part of the car, just as the pilot's harness in an airplane. Of course a 5 pt harness is better than a 3 pt (Such as a stoller or like you use in a car) but the issue is adding other items to the cars safety system.

im sorry im confused about this statement. i understand pilots and race car drivers have the 5 pt. harnesses in their car seats but the physics is still the same re: the safety of a 5 point harness vs. just a seatbelt used in a booster.

not trying to be argumentative but im not seeing the relevance of built in vs. car seat 5 pt. harness. Of course, any built in wont have the SIP also which alot of carseats do.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Does the Nautilus use teether straps? I don't see that in the description.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

I believe it uses a top tether, and I believe that it's one that, when used in booster mode, can use LATCH to hold it in.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Does the Nautilus use teether straps? I don't see that in the description.

If you mean LATCH, yes, all car seats are required to come equipped with LATCH straps.







The Nautilus is also approved for use of LATCH while in booster mode (but not the top tether).


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
If you mean LATCH, yes, all car seats are required to come equipped with LATCH straps.







The Nautilus is also approved for use of LATCH while in booster mode (but not the top tether).

Yep that's what I meant.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"im sorry im confused about this statement. i understand pilots and race car drivers have the 5 pt. harnesses in their car seats but the physics is still the same re: the safety of a 5 point harness vs. just a seatbelt used in a booster."

The issue is points of failure, and the adding thereof. A child in a harness, sitting in a seat attched via the seatbelt, has two chances to go flying through the window - the car's belt can fail, or the harness can fail. I prefer to rely directly on the seatbelt and not use a harness on my 4 y.o.

OTOH (and I think this is the big lesson to take from that Kyle video), if you have your child harnessed in a seat that is LATCHed or belted _and_ tethered, you are actually adding another line of defense if the LATCH or belt should fail (still won't help if the harness fails). The top tether might keep the seat from being ejected, which greatly increases your child's chances of surviving the crash. While there has not been any particularly good testing on the use of tether at higher weight limits, the Car Seat Lady has put together a chart of the available info. IMHO, continuing to use the tether after you've stopped using the lower anchors never hurts and might help.

I think that the conversations about 3-pt. vs. 5-pt. can only be usefully made in the context of integrated vs. non-integrated. Integrated 5-pts. would be the safest for everybody, all the time. But as alegna points out, seatbelts need to be replaced after crashes, there is a cost issue, there is not consumer pressure to integrate 5-pts. ---> I do not have the option of purchasing a vehicle that offers integrated 5- pt. harnesses for my kids. Once my son was of sufficient weight and height, it was a great relief to me to secure him directly with the integrated 3-pt. system my car came with. If he was the kind of kid who wiggled around and messed with his belt, he would still be in a non-integrated harness.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"im sorry im confused about this statement. i understand pilots and race car drivers have the 5 pt. harnesses in their car seats but the physics is still the same re: the safety of a 5 point harness vs. just a seatbelt used in a booster."

The issue is points of failure, and the adding thereof. A child in a harness, sitting in a seat attched via the seatbelt, has two chances to go flying through the window - the car's belt can fail, or the harness can fail. I prefer to rely directly on the seatbelt and not use a harness on my 4 y.o.

OTOH (and I think this is the big lesson to take from that Kyle video), if you have your child harnessed in a seat that is LATCHed or belted _and_ tethered, you are actually adding another line of defense if the LATCH or belt should fail (still won't help if the harness fails). The top tether might keep the seat from being ejected, which greatly increases your child's chances of surviving the crash. While there has not been any particularly good testing on the use of tether at higher weight limits, the Car Seat Lady has put together a chart of the available info. IMHO, continuing to use the tether after you've stopped using the lower anchors never hurts and might help.

I think that the conversations about 3-pt. vs. 5-pt. can only be usefully made in the context of integrated vs. non-integrated. Integrated 5-pts. would be the safest for everybody, all the time. But as alegna points out, seatbelts need to be replaced after crashes, there is a cost issue, there is not consumer pressure to integrate 5-pts. ---> I do not have the option of purchasing a vehicle that offers integrated 5- pt. harnesses for my kids. Once my son was of sufficient weight and height, it was a great relief to me to secure him directly with the integrated 3-pt. system my car came with. If he was the kind of kid who wiggled around and messed with his belt, he would still be in a non-integrated harness.

Are there any recorded instances of carseat harnesses failing in a non-expired seat?

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Here's a 5yr 10m old boy rfing. http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Quinn.aspx

I have to agree, at 5 and 6, that's barely booster age, let alone old in a booster. AJ is 5 and is in a Graco Nautilus. If I had to buy him a booster today, I'd get the Sunshine Kids Monterey. He knows he has to wear his harness till he's at least 6, then we'll talk again and see where he is in his seat etc. At this point though, I don't forsee him outgrowing his harness before 7 or 8. Evan is still rfing at 3.5yo so he'll barely be heavy to use a 30# booster at 6, let alone use one full time. The kids will be in high backed boosters as their full time seat till they outgrow the seat. A hbb is safer than a low backed booster and my kids will be in them for a long time. After that, if they still need a booster, they will be moved into a lbb.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Are there any recorded instances of carseat harnesses failing in a non-expired seat?

No, at least not in a correctly used seat. Everything that was posted in that post is her logic alone and I must say the first time I've ever heard that argument for moving to a seatbelt instead of a harness. A correctly used harness will be safer no matter if it's built in or not.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

She will be seven in two months so that makes her older in my book. By "older" kids I meant not toddlers. They are school aged children.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
She will be seven in two months so that makes her older in my book. By "older" kids I meant not toddlers. They are school aged children.

Toddlers are too young for boosters.

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
She will be seven in two months so that makes her older in my book. By "older" kids I meant not toddlers. They are school aged children.

Yes, but when you realize that most kids need boosters till about age 10, some upwards of 12, she's not old in booster talk.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Toddlers are too young for boosters.

-Angela

That doesn't stop people from putting them in it and a "toddler can be a four year old to some people if you want to get into the technicality of it.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
Yes, but when you realize that most kids need boosters till about age 10, some upwards of 12, she's not old in booster talk.

I know their not too old that was never the question I just never really thought about the safety aspect of it. I was kind of in the mind frame that they were all created equal until reading more and visiting this forum. I decided to put them back into a harness though.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
That doesn't stop people from putting them in it and a "toddler can be a four year old to some people if you want to get into the technicality of it.

And IM(educated)O 4 is too young for a booster.









We're talking best-practices here. A 14 mo isn't an "older" child to be rf.









-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
I know their not too old that was never the question I just never really thought about the safety aspect of it. I was kind of in the mind frame that they were all created equal until reading more and visiting this forum. I decided to put them back into a harness though.

That's great! I was just trying to explain our side of it. I see many people who say 'my child is too old for this' simply b/c of an age, be it rfing, using a harness, using a booster whatever. You mentioned your dd had made mention that none of her friends were in seats still and that can make a parent feel like they are doing something wrong, when really, they are the ones doing the something RIGHT! At 7, I wouldn't worry too much about a harness if she can sit properly in a booster, but I would make sure she had a nice booster w/ some food side impact protection.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
but I would make sure she had a nice booster w/ some *food* side impact protection.

Like what? Some nice dense bread? Maybe some lightly steamed squash? Or perhaps a springy angel food cake...



















-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Angel food cake sounds good...AJ would like anything carb based for his booster.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
And IM(educated)O 4 is too young for a booster.









We're talking best-practices here. A 14 mo isn't an "older" child to be rf.









-Angela

You realize that your implying that those who do put their four year olds in boosters are uneducated right? I'm hoping you mean "educated" in car seat safety.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
You realize that your implying that those who do put their four year olds in boosters are uneducated right? I'm hoping you mean "educated" in car seat safety.

Of course. There are many highly educated parents who are woefully ignorant on carseat safety.

-Angela


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:

but I would make sure she had a nice booster w/ some *food* side impact protection.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Like what? Some nice dense bread? Maybe some lightly steamed squash? Or perhaps a springy angel food cake...

I was thinking she meant like a plexiglass shield to stop flying cream pies...


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I would like a shield between the front and back seats to stop the bunny crackers and sippy cups from being tossed at my head, come to think of it. Not to mention the baby dolls, socks and shoes, etc.







:


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## SaraC (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Of course. There are many highly educated parents who are woefully ignorant on carseat safety.

-Angela

I have to agree with this since I was once one of "those parents". I have three children. Oldest is 7, 54 inches tall, and 77 lbs. Middle is 40 ish inches tall and 46 lbs. Youngest is 16 months and about 22 lbs. I had the oldest restrained in the low back booster and my youngest in a Marathon. I know that they were restrained to the best of my ability. But my middle child was in a high back booster which was not. On May 14,2008 we were hit by a bus going appox. 35-40mph and she ended up with a broken neck. I know that without the restraint she would have been killed but I just keep thinking that if I had her in a 5-pt harness the movement would have been less and she wouldn't have suffered such a serious injury. I am thankful that she is ok but that day I ordered a Regent and she is now harnessed again. My friend put her son who is similar in size weight wise but taller back in to a Regent and he is 7. I just personally feel that if you can put them in a harness then you should. My friends son is 7 and we just explained why it was safer and he was cool with it. My daughter loves her new seat and I love that she is safer.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

That must have been scary.








We are deciding now between the nautilus and the frontier. The frontier has a higher weight limit which I like but I can't find one locally anywhere to test out the fit. I took them to babiesrus to try out the nautilus and the fit is great they both like it. The regeant is HUGE I'm glad I saw it in person. So frontier or nautilus for us probably the nautilus since they have actually sat in it and tried it out.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milkmommie* 
My two kids, 8yrs and 5 yrs were in boosters and I never would have considered moving them to a five point harness either. Then I saw this...






Now they're riding in Britax regents and even the 8 yr old likes it and says it's SO comfy. I couldn't imagine having the knowlege in this video, not using it and having something happen and being left with so much regret.
Just my 2 cents.

If you decide to get one, do it at hipmonkey.com and they give the proceeds to Kyle's foundation. http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/ they have boosters there too.

Oy, While I truly feel for this kid and his family, it was not the booster that killed him, it was the seat belt failing... In my van, in my third row, there is no LATCH, so if I had to put a car seat in, I'd have to use the seat belt whether it was a booster seat or a 5 point harness. If the seat belt were to fail, it wouldn't matter what kind of car seat the child was in. The same goes for my DH's car. His car does not have the LATCH either.

PLUS!!! The LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt, just easier.

I'm not against 5 point harnesses or anything like that, I'm just saying that _this_ kid died because of equipment failure in the car. His sister, sitting right next to him, was in the same booster seat, and walked away with minimal injuries.

Most of my friends have minivans too, and not one that I have carpooled with has LATCH in the third row... If a seatbelt were to fail it wouldn't matter if you had your kid in the $300 britax or the $70 graco turbo booster.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

My van has a latch in the middle seat of the third row. I'm confused about the LATCH now is there anything that says that it is or is not safer, I always thought it was but I'm not very knowledgeable about it I admit.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

MommyJoia, while I understand what you're saying, had he been in a 5pt harness, even if he had been ejected, the carseat would've taken a lot of the crash forces. If you talk to Kyle's mom she will tell you there was an almost identical crash to hers that same say or close in time and the little girl was thrown from the car in her 5pt harness. She is still alive today. Granted, getting thrown from a car increases your chance of dying by about 400%, the older and more mature a child's body is, the higher the chance they can survive more traumatic things like that.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
My van has a latch in the middle seat of the third row. I'm confused about the LATCH now is there anything that says that it is or is not safer, I always thought it was but I'm not very knowledgeable about it I admit.

Properly installed seats are equally safe installed with a belt or LATCH according to everything I've seen.

But TOP tethers increase safety substantially.

-Angela


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i think the "safety" issue with the LATCH is the ease of use.

i have an SUV and we have LATCH in the 3d row...they do make them.

i agree about the 5 pt. harness...even if a seatbelt installed seat is ejected, the kid is still in something (ideally w/ SIP).


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Properly installed seats are equally safe installed with a belt or LATCH according to everything I've seen.

But TOP tethers increase safety substantially.

-Angela

What exactly is a top teether?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
What exactly is a top teether?

The top tether is the strap attached to the top of your car seat. If you car is equipped with top tether anchors (it's in the manual), the top tether increases safety of the seat by decreasing head excursion.

Quote:

Top tether

An assembly consisting of a top tether strap, attached at or near the top of a CR, together with a length adjuster and a top tether hook, that is used with either a vehicle belt or lower LATCH attachments for complete installation of a CR in a vehicle. For a forward-facing CR, the top tether keeps it from rotating forward in a frontal crash and significantly decreases head excursion...

As of September 1999, new head excursion requirements in FMVSS 213 made top tether straps, either attached or with attachment instructions, necessary on almost all convertibles, child seats, and combination seats sold in the U.S...

Use only tether anchorage locations specified by the manufacturer. For older CRs, a tether kit, which includes the webbing strap and the means to attach the strap to the CR, may be obtained from the manufacturer.
Source


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Yes it has two top teethers but are all carseats equipped to be used with them?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
Yes it has two top teethers but are all carseats equipped to be used with them?

Yes, all harnessed car seats that are not expired will have top tethers.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
Oy, While I truly feel for this kid and his family, it was not the booster that killed him, it was the seat belt failing.

There's some speculation about that. One of the concerns with putting younger children into boosters is that seat belts are designed to be buckled and unbuckled by the wearer. If the wearer is of insufficient maturity to understand that they MUST leave the belt buckled, there's a chance they may release it during travel.

So, it's possible that the belt did not actually fail, but was unbuckled by the child. In which case, a 5-pt. harness would have made all the difference.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread and you all convinced me to put my girls back in harnesses.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread and you all convinced me to put my girls back in harnesses.

yeh!!!!! good for you mama!


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## Jes'sBeth (Aug 30, 2004)

good for you for learning!!! I think some parents don't use carseats appropriately because there is so much to learn about them and it's intimidating. I didn't research our first carseat so we ended up using a seat that was poorly installed for the first 6ish months of our daughter's life. Then I learned better and was so grateful that we hadn't been in an accident and we got a seat that fit better in our car.

Don't forget to read your car manual and find out the weight limits for latch in your car. With the Nautilus you might need to do a seatbelt install if you have exceeded the weight limit on the latch when you use it as a harnessed seat. After that you will switch to booster mode and you can use latch to keep the seat in the car.

Like I said... SOOOO much to learn...!


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jes'sBeth* 
Don't forget to read your car manual and find out the weight limits for latch in your car. With the Nautilus you might need to do a seatbelt install if you have exceeded the weight limit on the latch when you use it as a harnessed seat. After that you will switch to booster mode and you can use latch to keep the seat in the car.
Like I said... SOOOO much to learn...!

The manual doesn't say but I heard it was 40 pounds. It's a honda odyssey. How can I use the latch to keep the booster in the car but not as a harness seat if my child is over 40 pounds?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

From what I understand (someone correct me if I'm wrong!) when you use the latch in booster mode, it doesn't add anything to the safety of the seat. The seat belt is still what is protecting the child. Using latch is basically for convenience, so the seat won't tip while dc is trying to get in it, and you don't have to buckle it up when you drive when dc isn't in the car.


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
Oy, While I truly feel for this kid and his family, it was not the booster that killed him, it was the seat belt failing... In my van, in my third row, there is no LATCH, so if I had to put a car seat in, I'd have to use the seat belt whether it was a booster seat or a 5 point harness. If the seat belt were to fail, it wouldn't matter what kind of car seat the child was in. The same goes for my DH's car. His car does not have the LATCH either.

PLUS!!! The LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt, just easier.

I'm not against 5 point harnesses or anything like that, I'm just saying that _this_ kid died because of equipment failure in the car. His sister, sitting right next to him, was in the same booster seat, and walked away with minimal injuries.

Most of my friends have minivans too, and not one that I have carpooled with has LATCH in the third row... If a seatbelt were to fail it wouldn't matter if you had your kid in the $300 britax or the $70 graco turbo booster.

This is wrong. If he had been in a 5point harness seat, the seat would have protected him as it would be ejected from the car with the child within it. If the seatbelt fails, I want my child in a carseat, not a booster!! There's way more protection for them that way. There is also something that happens to kids in boosters called sumbarining or seatbelt syndrome. They slide down just a smidge during an accident and the lap portion of the belt impacts them in such a way as to shear their organs from the inside of thier bodies. Thus a child in a booster who's seat belt does not fail can still be killed by the booster. Kids should stay in a 5 point harness as long as possible, it's the safest thing for them even if the seat is not secured using LATCH.
I moved both of my kids into Regents after learning about the danger of boosters. They're 5 and 8 and are both above the LATCH weight limit. When you use the car belt to secure the seat, you also use the top tether which is a seperate component from the LATCH. Both units, the car's belt and the top tether would have to fail for the child to be ejected in their seat.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Top tethers are good to use, and mandatory with some seats, but they are not designed to keep a seat attached to a vehicle. Don't count on them to do that.

5-point harnesses are the safest. There's no question about that. But properly used boosters for children of an appropriate age, size, and maturity level are safe as well. Kyle David ****** was too young and too small for a booster, and I believe the booster was improperly installed as well. That was tragic. But boosters are not death traps.


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Top tethers are good to use, and mandatory with some seats, but they are not designed to keep a seat attached to a vehicle. Don't count on them to do that.

5-point harnesses are the safest. There's no question about that. But properly used boosters for children of an appropriate age, size, and maturity level are safe as well. Kyle David ****** was too young and too small for a booster, and I believe the booster was improperly installed as well. That was tragic. But boosters are not death traps.

Not saying boosters are death traps but given the choice, a 5 point harness is always safer.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I agree, and I stated, that a 5-point harness is always safer. It is not always an option, however.

I hate the Kyle David ****** video. Sorry, but I do. It is emotionally manipulative and technically inaccurate.

I think kids should be in harnesses as long as possible. I advocate for extended harnessing at carseat clinics. I don't think parents should be scared to use boosters when it is physically and developmentally appropriate.


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Sorry, but I have to take issue with you on that. I can't imagine that the family of that boy is trying to "emotionally manipulate" anyone. And I'm not sure exactly what's technically inaccurate about it. I don't really think it's about making parents scared to use a booster. I do hope that parents will hesitate to rush their child into a booster. My 8yr old _still_ fits into a 5point harness and that's where she'll stay until there's absolutely NO other choice.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

It's technically inaccurate because it claims LATCH is safer than seatbelts, and encourages parents to use the lower anchors even though many cars don't allow use past 40 or 48 pounds.

It's technically inaccurate because it claims a top tether would keep a carseat from being ejected.

It's technically inaccurate because it implies that a child in a 5-point harness seat would survive being ejected, and that is by no means certain.

It's emotionally manipulative (and I am not questioning the intent of the family, just the effect of the video) because it implies that properly used boosters are not good enough. KDM was too young and too small to be in a booster, and it appears that his booster was being used improperly. And he died. And that was tragic. But there is no reason to believe that a child who was old enough and large enough to use a booster, and that booster was being used properly, would also have died. Boosters aren't bad. Boosters used badly are bad.


----------



## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
It's emotionally manipulative (and I am not questioning the intent of the family, just the effect of the video) because it implies that properly used boosters are not good enough. KDM was too young and too small to be in a booster, and it appears that his booster was being used improperly. And he died. And that was tragic. But there is no reason to believe that a child who was old enough and large enough to use a booster, and that booster was being used properly, would also have died. Boosters aren't bad. Boosters used badly are bad.

IMO boosters aren't ideal. A child should really be left in a 5 point harness if at all possible. Not a 5 point harness _or_ a booster.
And fwiw, a video can't be emotionally manipulative. By calling it emotionally manipulative, it really sounds as if you're interpreting the intent behind the video. They're using their horrible loss to educate other parents. I see that as a very giving thing to do.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I think you are misunderstanding what I am writing. I have stated in this thread, in other threads in this forum, and in numerous carseat checks IRL, that five-point harnesses are safer than five-point harnesses, and that many children who meet the (very low, IME/IMO) manufacturers' requirements to ride in a BPB would benefit from being in a harnessed seat.

I take issue with your statements:

Quote:

There is also something that happens to kids in boosters called sumbarining or seatbelt syndrome. They slide down just a smidge during an accident and the lap portion of the belt impacts them in such a way as to shear their organs from the inside of thier bodies. Thus a child in a booster who's seat belt does not fail can still be killed by the booster.

{snip}

Both units, the car's belt and the top tether would have to fail for the child to be ejected in their seat.
Submarining and seatbelt syndrome happen when children are too small for boosters or the booster is not being used properly. And a top tether is not designed to and probably will not prevent ejection if a seatbelt or the lower anchors fail: it is inaccurate to claim that it is another line of defense.

Again, if I haven't written it enough: five-point harnesses are safer than three-point harnesses. But for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. It's not a question of "booster bad, harness good", but "booster good, harness better".


----------



## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Submarining and seatbelt syndrome happen when children are too small for boosters or the booster is not being used properly. And a top tether is not designed to and probably will not prevent ejection if a seatbelt or the lower anchors fail: it is inaccurate to claim that it is another line of defense.".

I'm not being a smarty, could you tell me why the tether is there if it's not meant to "tether" the seat into the car? I honestly don't know the answer to this question and would like to know. And even if the tether doesn't hold the seat in the car, the 5point carseat will protect a child that is ejected...a booster won't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Again, if I haven't written it enough: five-point harnesses are safer than three-point harnesses. But for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. It's not a question of "booster bad, harness good", but "booster good, harness better".

This is where we agree. But I'd still say it worries me that a parent might read, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice." and move their child out of a 5point harness for comfort or convenience or to make the child feel like " a big boy/girl". I would rather hear something like, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. BUT a 5point harness is the safest choice."


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milkmommie* 
I'm not being a smarty, could you tell me why the tether is there if it's not meant to "tether" the seat into the car? I honestly don't know the answer to this question and would like to know. And even if the tether doesn't hold the seat in the car, the 5point carseat will protect a child that is ejected...a booster won't.

A top tether stabilizes the top of the seat and helps to reduce head excursion. The top tether bolts and top tether strap are not designed to withstand the force of an impact. And honestly, ejection is a pretty big deal. I have my doubts that a carseat shell will protect a child adequately in the event of an ejection. It might. But my educated guess is that many accidents with ejections are simply not survivable. Again, I am NOT arguing that harnessed seats are bad or worthless. They are not. They are terrific.

Quote:

This is where we agree. But I'd still say it worries me that a parent might read, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice." and move their child out of a 5point harness for comfort or convenience or to make the child feel like " a big boy/girl". I would rather hear something like, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. BUT a 5point harness is the safest choice."
You may not like this. I don't even like it all that much. But it is a parent's right to make that choice. As a CPST and advocate, I fear that I will lose credibility by telling parents that they need to keep their kids harnessed to 80 pounds. They're likely to laugh at me, and then dismiss everything else I have to say. I also worry -- and have seen with my own eyes -- that parents are so scared of boosters after watching the KDM video that they cram their 50-pound kids into 40-pound seats. That's bad. That's way worse than putting that 50-pound kid into a good highbacked booster.


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Good points! I can attest from my side of things that out of 6 or so friends I forwarded the video to, four put their kids back into a well fitted 5 point harness. That's a success. It's sad to hear that it doesn't always work out so well.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

so what about the tall skinny 50 lb 8 year old? she has a backless booster....


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiddoson* 
so what about the tall skinny 50 lb 8 year old? she has a backless booster....

How tall? I would really prefer to see a 50-pound child in at least a high-back booster.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I too would prefer a high backed booster. A high backed booster, especially one w/ good side impact protection is going to offer loads more protection than a backless booster. I have some great side impact crash tests of boosters if you'd like to see them. If you sit her against a wall, you can measure from the floor to her shoulders to get her torso height. It's not far fetched that she may just be too tall for a high backed booster and in that case a backless is best.

Here's a good visual of why top tethers are so important.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...uch/Tether.jpg


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