# Shamed, embarrassed, depressed, HUMILIATED



## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

I am a bit teary as I even write this. I had no idea this was going on, and I already felt so ashamed about myself.

It's been 2 years since the birth of my second boy. He was 9 pounds, 21 inches. I was proud to have such a big baby being small myself at 5'1 95 pounds pre-pregnancy. I was hoping the joy would just continue and continue, but it didn't.

We are now trying for number 3 and I have fallen into somewhat of a depression for the first time in my life. I feel shamed, embarassed and utterly saddened. My stomach after giving birth to him, was a huge hernia- I looked 6 months pregnant for months after the birth, along with skin so baggy and so wrinkly I looked like an 80 year old in my tummy area.

Well, the big new news is that my vaginal floor muscles are completely deteriorated. I had wondered why the past 2 years, I haven't been able to keep in urine, now I know why. I was also wondering why doing kegals religiously (and I've been properly trained how), were also not doing anything. In fact, they wouldn't even budge when I tried. When I saw the specialist last week, she measured everything, tested everything, and determined that huge fat buldge in my "area" was in fact, bladder prolapse- there are no muscles holding it in place. They're in a constant state of jitteriness and weakness.

I guess I am just looking for mutual experience or just plain flat out support. I feel like the ugliest 25 year old girl out there, and since finding out about my floor muscles, I have even more reason to completely hate my body. DTD is often difficult because of my lack of confidence and now I am even less confident because of my muscles.

Suggestions, or even personal experiences are so welcome. I am hoping this will all pass, that I will be able to figure this out, and that I will gain my confidence back, because I just don't have it anymore, and it's saddening my husband, and most of all, me.

To top this all off, my best friend told me "I think this means you should only have c-sections now". Well, that's not the best thing to tell someone who is so passionate about natural birth and what it means to have a beautiful bonding experience. I can't just do that so lightly, KWIM?

But maybe I should just shove natural birth out the window now. If physical therapy won't cure this, I have no idea what's in store for me, my health and our dream of a big family.










Thanks in advance for anyone who responds...


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

I also wanted to mention about the "humiliated" part, that what I mean by that is- shopping at the store the other day, with a cart full of groceries and the boys in the cart, I completely "lost it all" because I wasn't able to get to a bathroom quickly enough. This is all making me feel so CRUMMY (although I would like to insert some slightly stronger verbage in there)


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I am so sorry!!!

Also, I don't think that it has anything to do with natural birth. I mean, was it the pregnancy or the birth that caused this? Regardless, changing how you do birth in the future won't change damages from the past, see what I am saying?

((((hugs))))


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

There's a thread in the healing birth trauma for those of us dealing with pelvic organ prolapse. Let me see if I can find it for you.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Here you go
http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/713732/pelvic-organ-prolapse-support-thread/1360#post_16392369

There's a lot of great information and support on that thread. Here, I'll tell you that I have both a prolapsed bladder and rectum. Not fun. Sometimes it's better than others, but I've started to experience some of the urine leakage that you're talking about, and I know how bad it feels







. I'm considering surgery right now, but it would have to wait until after I'm done with a course of medication I'm taking for something else (can't have "elective" surgery while I'm taking it because it can affect my ability to heal properly). Anyhow, surgery might be anoption for you in the future, but it would need to wait until you're done having children, because pregnancy and child birth would likely undo any repairs made.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

I am sorry this happened to you.

You should know that this is NOT a reason for an Elective Caesarean Section or any kind of Surgical Birth. You will be fine. Ask if a pessary or a simpler repair can be made for the time being.


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

Thank you- about the c-section thoughts. Unfortunately (and different topic) now my friend is "even more determined" to never give birth vaginally based on my example. So much for influencing natural childbirth to friends, eh?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I asked he gyno-urologist if I had the surgery now and got pregnant again, if an elective c-section would protect the repairs and he said that it is pregnancy itself that contributes to his issue, rather than vaginal child birth. Women who have given birth only by c-section still suffer from prolapse. I asked him about it when he told me I should wait until I'm sure I'm doing having children before I consider reconstructive surgery. He did say that he thought epidurals and delivery on your back could make a prolapse worse (due to unnatural positioning and women not being able to feel themselves pushing. I had three medicated births, and he recommended that if I did have any more children that I do what I could to have an unmedicated birth, but that regardless of method of birth, my prolapse was likely to get worse with another pregnancy.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

I am sorry for both of you! It is for this reason that I tell women birth with an unmedicated birth with a midwife is worth the extra $. I am sure there are ways to improve your situation now. Doctors do all kinds of surgical things for women and this could be one wonderous one.

Quote:


> Women who have given birth only by c-section still suffer from prolapse.


This is very true. I have known of women who elected to have a caesarean to avoid the possibility of a prolapse. I have also heard of ob's tell women that a surgical delivery will avoid a prolapse all together.

It is the hormones of pregnancy and gravity that cause the organs to soften and go south. Some of this can be hereditary.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh my gosh! I just want to tell you how much I sympathise. I'm 29, and have been having the same problem since the birth of my daughter. I know what you mean about humiliating. No one understands-- nobody. Even when you go to get help about this issue-- all the ads and brochures etc are aimed at old people.

I've had to change my pants at the mall, and I peed myself at my son's playground, right there by the swings. I can't do hardly anything without peeing myself-- standing up, picking up my son or daughter etc. lately I thought I was getting better, but yesterday I such a horrible experience that I can't even get into the details here- it's too embarrassing even for the internet.

I wanted to put a vote for physical therapy-- it's the only thing that gave me hope; and a little bit of relief. I can now hold my pee for certain things.

Oh-- and btw, re child I had a c-section and then a vbac. my pt said that the section likely contributed to the muscle weekness-- this doesn't happen as a cause of vag birth alone.

I will post more later.


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## Momofplenty (Mar 20, 2011)

I got diagnosed after my 2nd baby. I have since had 2 other natural births and am pregnant again. I have prolapse of bladder and rectal muscles, along with my uterus "falling"... so I completely hear you. I don't find being intimate the same and after a few minutes, it actually hurts unless we are in the same.dang.position.the.whole.time. Because I am done having children after #5, I am opting for a partial hysterectomy. My midwife said that would pretty much take most of the prolapse away because the pressure will be off of everything. I have had the experience of peeing in a parking lot as well...started dry heaving from morning sickness and peed right through my jeans.  Not fun.

My doctor told me about reconstructive surgery and how it needs to be redone every 7-10 years or so... It's just such a delicate area. 
But yeah, I'd definitely seeks some love in the link posted by the other mom. It's way more common than we think...people just don't talk about it casually.


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

WOW. I did NOT realize how common my issue was! Thank goodness I have support here. Now I just need to post a picture of my tummy though and hope someone says "Mine looks JUST like that!"

ugh.

About pregnancy and prolapse- Interesting. I did not know that! I had midwives with both my birth, yes, they are the way to go and I will never go to an OB, or a hospital for that matter!

Hopefully can sort all of this out, and gain some confidence. Although you ladies have already given me a little bit  Thank you...


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *texmati*
> 
> Oh my gosh! I just want to tell you how much I sympathise. I'm 29, and have been having the same problem since the birth of my daughter. I know what you mean about humiliating. No one understands-- nobody. Even when you go to get help about this issue-- all the ads and brochures etc are aimed at old people.
> 
> ...


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

(((hugs)))

I've had a mild bladder prolapse since my third was born. Been wearing pads daily since then, and he's about to turn 4. No fun. Also, mid cycle every month, everything in there seem to "fall down" and I have that awkward "it's going to fall out" feeling for a few days. Yay, hormones.










Also, yeah, the stomach thing? I try to ignore it. It's never going back to where it was, not after 3 kids, two of them 10 lb or more.

I am so sad though, that you are ashamed about all this. In daily life, it's annoying to deal with and all that, but feeling shamed and ugly because of it is so, so sad. Being incontinent is definitely embarassing, but nothing that should cause shame, as it's not your fault. And the visible outer changes (like stomach) are a normal result of birth. But our culture doesn't allow deviation from airbrushed standards of beauty, so we all hide it and feel like we're the only ones who don't have a perfectly hard and smooth belly.

What helps me tremendously is that my husband loves me, and my body, and doesn't consider the changes traumatic or ugly. He loves my body more than I do, and that has helped me change my attitude towards myself over the years. Do you have people in your life that can remind you that you *are* beautiful and encourage you?


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

I've been to pt for this... I don't have prolapse, but I'm still incontinent. Basically what I was told was that it was just muscle weakness, abs, from the section, pelvic floor from the back to back pregnancy, vaginal wall...etc. Pt definitely lifted my mood. i also go a pelvic floor exerciser which i started using, and I really belive helped.

If you can, I would def try pt. It's wonderful to be able to *do* something about this. And if not, if you feel that the pelvic floor exerciser would help you, you can buy those off of the internet. Mine is really easy to use, even though the idea of it still kind of squicks me out.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Oh OP, Totally know how you feel. I was so utterly humiliated by my postbirth body. I once peed all over the bathroom floor because I couldn't lift the toilet cover on time. I even pooped myself once when I was desperate to get to the potty. Blah! I also have a pretty bad rectocele and mild cystocele. My body is a mess. I have a hernia in my tummy as well. My guts sort of pop out every time I sneeze or cough. That doesn't really bother me as much though, because at least everyone knows your tummy goes to pot after you have a baby.
I read a great book called "Ever Since I had my Baby" by Rodger Goldberg. He's a urogyn in the practice I go to. The book is fabulous and it makes you feel so much better about your problems, and gives you a lot of pointers about good treatment options.
I would definitely see a PT if I were you. They can do wonders. Also check out the blog www.katysays.com. She's a biomechanist and has some really great pointers for posture etc. Also, if you have time, check out this study
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/461719_7

It's a study questioning whether or not mild prolapse should be considered a normal and expected finding in postpartum women. I hope you can find comfort in knowing that most women are going through the same thing as you!


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *texmati*
> 
> Oh my gosh! I just want to tell you how much I sympathise. I'm 29, and have been having the same problem since the birth of my daughter. I know what you mean about humiliating. No one understands-- nobody. Even when you go to get help about this issue-- all the ads and brochures etc are aimed at old people.
> 
> ...


Have you seen a urogyn? I ask because you could have something wrong with your bladder itself, like stones or something. If you couple a bladder disorder with weak pelvic floor muscles it can be very hard to control your urine flow. Just a thought. And (((hugs)))


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## kltroy (Sep 30, 2006)

I have POP that developed after my second child was born as well. Actually, I just read a statistic the other day that 11% of all women will have pelvic floor problems that are bad enough that they ultimately seek surgical treatment. So yes, very common! No words of wisdom beyond what you've already gotten, but I wanted to let you know that you are not the only one.


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## mt_gooseberry (Jun 25, 2010)

I just read a bunch of stuff on squatting to help with both preventing and healing prolapse due to pregnancy. I'm sure I found some of the info here on MDC, so I'll see if I can find where I read about it and then repost.

As far as the emotions you are experiencing, I would like to commiserate. I am about the same age as you, and feel like my days of physical enjoyment are over. I did not have prolapse, but I was ripped to shreds (literally) when I gave birth. I am now trying to deal with how I look and feel down there more than a year later, and trying to get ready for another birth soon (which I am so scared of because of what happened last time). How can my husband stand to have sex with me? Plus, it still hurts to DTD. I used to love the visual element of making love, now I only like lights-off and minimal touching (whichs makes for pretty boring sex). If I had the money for cosmetic surgery to fix things, I would do it in a heartbeat. Sex was such an important part of our relationship, and now...we still do it regularly, but I doubt either one of us is really fulfilled.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

I think this might be the article mentioned above.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

i second this. have you seen a urologist or urogyn??? there are meds for incontinence, i'm told. i have a problem with frequent UTIs and after almost 2 years (after the birth of ds2) of dealing with UTIs every single month, i FINALLY found a good urologist who helped me. ask for a 2nd opinion if you're not happy with the first. i did and i am so happy i did. i'd still be dealing with this if i'd stayed with the first fool i was with. grrr. i'm still seething. he had me stop nursing my son at 8 months to try a bunch of prescriptions that didn't even work. THEN he gave up on me, saying that there was nothing else to try. he didn't even do any tests!! he just relied on tests another doc did while i was pregnant. i went to my family doc, asked to try a med i was on before i was pregnant with ds2 and then saw another urologist who said it was actually her recommendation (and she explained exactly why it was working.) i am on a med that does miracles for me now and couldn't be happier. i was so tired of taking antibiotics for a month at a time. it was awful.

i know what incontinence is like. i had a problem with it after ds2 but worked on kegels and in time, i have improved. one of the things that gives me a sign i have a UTI is incontinence. i know plenty of mamas with incontinence and prolapsed bladders. i was shocked at how many admitted to having a problem when the topic came up! i thought i was alone in having issues.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Jynuine (Jan 9, 2011)

(hug) I just wanted to give you upliftment and some positive support. I'm really sorry you have to go through this, my friend.

I know there is a big issue with some remote tribes in Africa who go through similar things, only culturally it's VERY taboo and women actually die from being shunned. Their bodies are stunted from hard work at a young age so they are physically tiny and their bodies arent capable of carrying a baby properly when they are of age to marry and have kids.

So there is a HIGH infant and mother mortality rate there and it tears these women's bodies up with holes from the rectum into the vaginal opening (Fistulas) allowing feces and urine to seep out constantly.

The tribes see this as a punishment from either THEIR sin or the sin of their parents and literally throw these women out... It really brings to light for ME how lucky a lot of us are. You might be able to relate a little to their situations?

There is an amazing story given by Nova on it http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/filming-ethiopian-fistula-women.html.

I'm sure you are seeking out help in whichever way you can. I would think the doctors would be looking into finding you a specialist to help your situation? Again many hugs from this area. I suffer from minor incontinence and my pelvic floor feels VERY VERY loose after birthing 6 kids- and at term I literally feel myself 'falling out' vaginally', but I'm sure it's nothing compared to what you are going through. Prayers and blessings are with you!!!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Lurking here, getting lots of great information. My mother-in-law had 7 children and only stopped when her pelvic floor/muscles etc were wrecking havoc on her life. This was maybe 18 years ago and she had surgery including a hysterectomy. She says the surgery was immensely helpful.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lifeguard*
> 
> I think this might be the article mentioned above.


Wow that's interesting. She recommends against Kegels. Ditch the Kegels and add two to three squat sessions throughout the day... She also recommends squatting to pee in the shower, to help strengthen and maintain the pelvic muscles. OK, I'll admit it, I've done that for years.

Per that article I think it's very interesting to note that MIL has a naturally flat butt, never did have the round gluteus maximus muscles even before she had children.

Reader comment from May 12, 2010, Mamalikey: I do enjoy telling people that I call my wee wah Jamie Sommers now. They have rebuilt her.


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## Lucy Alden (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
> 
> And the visible outer changes (like stomach) are a normal result of birth. But our culture doesn't allow deviation from airbrushed standards of beauty, so we all hide it and feel like we're the only ones who don't have a perfectly hard and smooth belly.


Thank you cappuccinosmom. I needed to hear that today.


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

OP, hugs.

I just want to chime in and say that the article/blog lifeguard posted has been a life saver for me. Follow the links to Katy Bowman's blog (http://www.katysays.com/)... especially teh article "You don't know squat" - there's a TON of information. I've had a urethrocystocele for over ten years - but I always thought it was normal. Then, after DD was born, everything inside was collapsing to the outside. And I definitely had the tucked pelvis posture - I'd trained myself to stand that way around age 15 because 1) I hated the way my butt stuck out, and 2) because I read in some stupid women's magazine that it was good posture! And that idea was reinforced by years of exercise classes.

After following the advice in this article about posture and squatting.... my pelvic floor is in better shape than I was before I got pregnant. In the past, I experienced near-constant pain during intercourse (due to my retroverted uterus, collapsing urethra and bulging bowels.... yuck...), and that has gotten about a 100x better. I'm not 100% normal and I'm not sure I ever will be, but peeing has gotten easier over the last year (used be like trying to pee thorugh a kink in a hose - and then after she was born I was beginning to have some incontinence), and I can sprint after my kid and not feel like my vagina is going to turn inside out. (TMI? I clench my buttocks and pull my pelvic bone back as far as I can if I am going to run, though.) I can have sex sometimes instead of never. And I can squat..... I still have a diastasis and I don't know if it is going to go away, but Bowman says that the diastasis also comes from the tucked pelvis posture, so maybe it will get better. I also had a really bad piriformis problem/sciatica right after DD was born, and working on my glute muscles has made that go away. I also try to be super conscious of which way my pelvis is tilting at any time.

So if you are wondering if this advice could possibly help... I think the answer is... possibly. It did help me. One thing that was heartening was the idea of the pelvic floor muscles being unable to function properly unless they are pulled taut. And that they can work like a bowl supporting the innards. So even if your ligaments are all stretched out (as undoubtably mine are), getting into the right posture can help support them, along with any other types of therapy. For whatever it's worth, Bowman believes that the cause of prolapses is the tucked pelvis posture... not pregnancy, and not vaginal childbirth (though both can exacerbate the problem). I think she's onto something as I had a retroverted uterus (which is believed by some to be the earliest stage of prolapse) and the urethrocystocele... at 19, and possibly even earlier - never having been pregnant or given birth.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lifeguard*
> 
> I think this might be the article mentioned above.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Big hugs and a second for the suggestion of visiting the POP support thread... I know those ladies saved my sense of humor when I was first diagnosed with POP following the (VBAC) birth of my second child.

I have a handout I made about POP (recovery, prevention, etc) that I made after the shock of my own diagnosis wore off a bit... I'm a reference librarian and birth advocate and it drove me up the wall that POP was so very much misunderstood, mis-reported/mis-diagnosed, and taboo in our culture and it's become something of a soap box subject for me. Anyway, if anyone wants a copy of my handout, just PM me and I'll send you one... it's put together from all sorts of sources and you're free to pass it along to midwives, doulas, OBs, friends, neighbors, etc. Websites, books, and programs like Ending Female Pain, Saving the Whole Woman (the site totally looks like an infomercial, and a cheesy one at that, but the forums rock and it's one of the best sources for non-surgical treatments for POP), the Tupler Technique (there are threads in the fitness forum for moms using her program), and Beyond Kegels are all fantastic resources.

Since POP is considered a "quality of life" condition, there are all sorts of options before you reach surgery, or decide to change your future birth plans. I remember how crushed I was after my dd's birth when not only did I feel like my body was a total failure (I'd had a c/s and then when I'd finally had a vbac /this/ happened... not exactly on top of the birthing goddess world) and I was still emotionally fragile into my second year post-partum. However, I went on to have another VBAC with no worsening of symptoms and I'm planning another VBAC for this fall... so it's totally possible! And that first post-POP vbac was in a hospital with a midwife/ob team and they never tried to talk me out of it so hang in there! It's true that pregnancy and breastfeeding can complicate a POP surgery so it's a good idea to wait till you're done having kiddos to pull out the "big guns" but many women find that smaller fixes work fine.

~~(kind of unrelated, but you might want to share my POP theory with your friend... POP, especially in younger women, is on the rise. Part of this is generational since many women today are more comfortable going to a dr to complain about POP symptoms and less willing to accept "it's life" as a diagnosis. But even with increased reporting, the fact remains that POP used to be seen as an end-of-life issue and now it's a 30 something issue. My money is on cesarean section as a MAJOR factor. I mean here's a surgery that has exploded in numbers over the past few decades that specifically targets the pelvic organs! Bladder is retracted, uterus often removed and at the least banged around, intestines moved, etc. If you have surgery on a joint you kow that that joint will always be more prone to weakness/injury... so it's no surprise that a bladder that has been detached and replaced may not "stay put" as well as a bladder that was never retracted from it's home, and so on. Obviously there are a lot of factors that contribute to POP.... diet, lifestyle, genetics... but your friend may want to think about the long term "costs" of a cesarean, especially if her reason for choosing a c/s is specifically related to POP.)~~

HANG IN THERE..... IT WILL GET BETTER!


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## mt_gooseberry (Jun 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lifeguard*
> 
> I think this might be the article mentioned above.


That is indeed the article I was thinking of! Thanks, because I couldn't find it.


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## briannas auntie (Feb 21, 2011)

My grandma had the same exact problem after she had all her kids back in the day. Her doctor had her use a pessary for the pelvic prolapse and it helped her a lot, from what she told me today when I told her about your post. She also said that kegels didn't do a thing for her and she eventually decided to use the pessary. She also uses bladder spasm medicine like Ditropan to help with the leakage. I asker her what pads she used for the incontinence and she told me that she likes Tena Serenity Ultra pads that are a little longer in the back (not the ultra thin kind). She told me that these ones don't leak hardly at all and they are comfortable.

I thought I'd let you know all of this. I know its coming from a grandmother, but she thought that she'd let you know about all of this that helped her.

Jessie


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## dlm194 (Mar 23, 2005)

As much as i agree with using a good midwife and having an unmedicated birth, I do know a woman who suffered through a lot of these problems after a homebirth with a very reputable midwife in the area. It was just one of those crappy things that happened. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *miriam*
> 
> I am sorry for both of you! It is for this reason that I tell women birth with an unmedicated birth with a midwife is worth the extra $.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Destroyed pelvic floors can most certainly happen after natural childbirth. I actually find it distressing that the implication is that it won't. Sure, instrumental delivery in the hospital may up your chances! But that isn't particularly common nowadays. But look up obstetric fistula and have a gander at what some of the women giving birth without any obstetric assistance, in developing countries (very natural, indeed) deal with.


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## Calliope84 (Aug 19, 2010)

I have mild rectocele and cystocele. I might have been the one to tell people about the benefits of squatting to go to the bathroom... and give birth (google the lillipad squatting platform).

I LOVE the whole woman DVD and book. I've been trying to walk and stand using the whole woman posture and I haven't felt "hangy" in awhile now. I've heard the forums can bum people out because there are some bad cases on there, but the DVD with the exercises made me feel beautiful and empowered...proud to be feminine. Everything she said makes a lot of sense. I am worried about having a second child now, but I can't really let it freak me out. And everyone is right, it can actually be the pregnancy itself that causes this.

Btw, I had a natural childbirth that lasted 33 hours- though I ended up with an epidural for 6 hours and episiotomy at the end. DD was 9lbs 1oz. I gained too much weight and couldn't squat at all during labor because my feet were turning purple...but I hate that I had to basically give birth on my back. Everyone was saying holding my legs was just like squatting but that is plain stupid. I really hope to build up my balance and such and gain less weight next time so I can squat to give birth. It opens up the vaginal canal something like 20-30% more than other positions and I hope that will make things easier.


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## Jynuine (Jan 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calliope84*
> 
> Btw, I had a natural childbirth that lasted 33 hours- though I ended up with an epidural for 6 hours and episiotomy at the end. DD was 9lbs 1oz. I gained too much weight and couldn't squat at all during labor because my feet were turning purple...but I hate that I had to basically give birth on my back. Everyone was saying holding my legs was just like squatting but that is plain stupid. I really hope to build up my balance and such and gain less weight next time so I can squat to give birth. It opens up the vaginal canal something like 20-30% more than other positions and I hope that will make things easier.


I have heard conflicting reports on the squatting position and trauma to the pelvic floor on the gentlebirth.com archives... but I actually went into labor Thursday and literally labored horribly all day with ABSOLUTELY no change. The entirety of my perineum and cervix was SO sensitive from contraction after contraction and no change... and at 2:30am yesterday I had to resolve to be induced with an epidural too. I had to give birth on my back since I had an epidural but it turns out his cord was only about 13 inches long and it was wrapped around his neck once. He coded on the way out and had to be clamped/cut at the perineum.

I was trying VERY hard to go easy since I have a separated symphasis and an ailing hemroid- but the emergency of his crowning sort of prevented me from doing that/// and as Im going home today I will finally have a chance to inspect the damage. But it doesnt look good. My midwife is tlaking about having some pelvic floor PT.... *sigh*


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## Calliope84 (Aug 19, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jynuine*
> 
> I have heard conflicting reports on the squatting position and trauma to the pelvic floor on the gentlebirth.com archives... but I actually went into labor Thursday and literally labored horribly all day with ABSOLUTELY no change. The entirety of my perineum and cervix was SO sensitive from contraction after contraction and no change... and at 2:30am yesterday I had to resolve to be induced with an epidural too. I had to give birth on my back since I had an epidural but it turns out his cord was only about 13 inches long and it was wrapped around his neck once. He coded on the way out and had to be clamped/cut at the perineum.
> 
> I was trying VERY hard to go easy since I have a separated symphasis and an ailing hemroid- but the emergency of his crowning sort of prevented me from doing that/// and as Im going home today I will finally have a chance to inspect the damage. But it doesnt look good. My midwife is tlaking about having some pelvic floor PT.... *sigh*


Wow... that site has a lot of info. Can you tell me what you read on there about it? Since Avalon was big, I just thought squatting might help for the next baby. If you are dealing with hemorrhoids, I am telling you- get yourself a lillipad for the toilet. I had some hemorrhoid issues and actually I still do. If I try to go on the toilet sitting it hurts and I can't. I have zero issues with squatting, though. No pain unless I get constipated (which never happens now if I avoid dairy and soy. Guess I'm sensitive just like my baby!) I just think it is the natural way to go.


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## Calliope84 (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh! Also, I've had that Walk to Beautiful movie on my instant queue netflix for awhile now. I'll have to watch it. You know... everyone talks about how you have to birth naturally and all this junk- but look at this. Even though the female body is meant to give birth to children - that does NOT mean that it is natural and great and my body will do everything just perfectly. I bought into all that before I actually had this child. I don't 100% believe it anymore. I also don't believe we need such a high rate of interventions and c-sections but clearly there are pros and cons to both natural birth with no doctors around and a medical childbirth. My views are more balanced now I think...


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## cagnew (Oct 1, 2007)

I have a first degree uterine and bladder prolapse, as well as a second degree rectocele. I wanted to chime in on the "ugly stomach" thing though.

I've have a big abdominal separation ever since the pregnancy and birth of my second child (he was 10 lbs and the birth was a disaster). I hate the way my stomach looks (especially my belly button)- but even worse, I could feel my organs poking out. I found a physical therapist online and I am in the middle of 6 week program she offers called "Core 4." So far, I am very pleased with the results. My organs have gone back in, which has taken about 3 inches off the diameter of my stomach. That's pretty big for me! The only thing that might be difficult for anyone with a major POP is that you are supposed to wear a tummy splint the whole time and I know that too much pressure around the mid-section can cause the POP to feel worse sometimes. However, I think you could do the exercises without wearing the splint and still see results. Have you ever read the book, 'How to Lose Your Mummy Tummy" by Julie Tupler? The exercises from the program I am doing are similar to the Tupler exercises, but WAY less repetitions.

Just thought I would throw that out there. Many women are able to improve their diastasis through specific exercises. For me, even though my stomach has gone down, it's still "ugly." I'm resigned to it always being unattractive and saggy. It's hard not to cringe when I see myself naked... but at least I am starting to look better with clothes on....


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Squatting- My 4th degree tear (and the POP that happened as a result of that particular birth) happened while I was squatting. DD2 was smaller than dd1 but at 9lbs even she was still "bigger than the norm" and I pushed for about 4 hours. So at least my own anecdotal evidence is that squatting is NOT a silver bullet for preventing pelvic floor injury!

After doing gobs of research I decided that side-lying or even hands and knees were the best positions for preventing repeat tears/pelvic floor injury, and I made sure to deliver my ds while side lying... worked like a charm with about 30-40 minutes of pushing and a small 2nd degree tear along the old scar tissue. Again it's anecdotal, but I'll be side lying or hands/knees with my next birth just in case!

I did that research several years ago now (dd2 was born in 2007) and on a different computer so I'm not sure I still have my research folder easily accessible, but I'll take a look to see if I can share the various studies, papers, and midwifery conference notes I used!


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

I have a sneaking suspicion re: squatting, that if you are not able to arch your back enough while squatting (see the katysays "you don't know squat" blog for pictures)... that it is no help for pooping or giving birth and you would, as wombatclay suggests, be better of side lying or on hands and knees so that you can keep that healthy arch in your back and healthy pelvic angle. Because it is the pelvic angle that is important, not the squat itself. When I first began squatting, my pelvis would still curve forward so my back was in a c-shape and that would cause increased pressure on my pelvic organs. Only improving my hip and calf flexibility to squat properly has helped in that regard, and I still have much work to do before I would consider squatting to be a useful giving birth position for my body.


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## Calliope84 (Aug 19, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> I have a sneaking suspicion re: squatting, that if you are not able to arch your back enough while squatting (see the katysays "you don't know squat" blog for pictures)... that it is no help for pooping or giving birth and you would, as wombatclay suggests, be better of side lying or on hands and knees so that you can keep that healthy arch in your back and healthy pelvic angle. Because it is the pelvic angle that is important, not the squat itself. When I first began squatting, my pelvis would still curve forward so my back was in a c-shape and that would cause increased pressure on my pelvic organs. Only improving my hip and calf flexibility to squat properly has helped in that regard, and I still have much work to do before I would consider squatting to be a useful giving birth position for my body.


 I don't know about her... why aren't her feet flat on the floor? And the c-shape thing... that is how stuff comes out more easily

.  This is the kind of squat I am talking about and the back definitely isn't arched...

But I think I will look into side lying and all 4s for the next time, too, though. I have a feeling it is kind of luck. I'll do what I can to minimize any further damage but really there is no way of controlling it probably.


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

It isnt really arched, but there is a definite difference in pelvic angle that seems like an arch in the back to someone like me, who has spent a lifetime sitting on chairs and slouching my whole back into a C-shape when I sit at a computer. I can really see the difference between my mom squatting and myself. My mom looks like Bowman's ideal. She grew up squatting for toileting, work, eating, and waiting, and continued to do so for her whole adult life (for work and waiting, and often eating), so her knees go way past her toes, her feet are flat on the ground, and her quads are nearly parallel with the floor, and her pelvis is in the same position it would be if she were standing, so her butt kind of appears to be sticking out, but it's not really. And she has total mobility in a squat... she can sort of duck walk and sweep the floor while squatting, or chop veggies, or do all kinds of work. I've seen her, at age 55, squat dozens of times a day. I can do this too, but I lose my balance more quickly, and I look much more like that guy (not a c-shape... he has a pretty flat back and so do I in a squat like that). I am considered to have pretty open hips by most yoga teachers, etc....but my hips just aren't nearly as flexible (nor my glutes as strong) as they would have been had I squatted more in my teens and early 20s. I look at a toddler and they are able to move through a range which includes a squat like what that guy is doing, to, as they get older and stronger, a squat more like what my mom does. I do think ankle flexibility plays a big part. Anyhow, those are the experiences that sold me on Bowman's ideas... and it's just my guess that the working squat like my mom does is the one that is best for birth, but I'm no scientist.

I agree though, ultimately, luck probably plays the biggest role in terms of birth outcomes.


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## Calliope84 (Aug 19, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> It isnt really arched, but there is a definite difference in pelvic angle that seems like an arch in the back to someone like me, who has spent a lifetime sitting on chairs and slouching my whole back into a C-shape when I sit at a computer. I can really see the difference between my mom squatting and myself. My mom looks like Bowman's ideal. She grew up squatting for toileting, work, eating, and waiting, and continued to do so for her whole adult life (for work and waiting, and often eating), so her knees go way past her toes, her feet are flat on the ground, and her quads are nearly parallel with the floor, and her pelvis is in the same position it would be if she were standing, so her butt kind of appears to be sticking out, but it's not really. And she has total mobility in a squat... she can sort of duck walk and sweep the floor while squatting, or chop veggies, or do all kinds of work. I've seen her, at age 55, squat dozens of times a day. I can do this too, but I lose my balance more quickly, and I look much more like that guy (not a c-shape... he has a pretty flat back and so do I in a squat like that). I am considered to have pretty open hips by most yoga teachers, etc....but my hips just aren't nearly as flexible (nor my glutes as strong) as they would have been had I squatted more in my teens and early 20s. I look at a toddler and they are able to move through a range which includes a squat like what that guy is doing, to, as they get older and stronger, a squat more like what my mom does. I do think ankle flexibility plays a big part. Anyhow, those are the experiences that sold me on Bowman's ideas... and it's just my guess that the working squat like my mom does is the one that is best for birth, but I'm no scientist.
> 
> I agree though, ultimately, luck probably plays the biggest role in terms of birth outcomes.


I wish I could see what you are talking about! I don't even know what I look like when I do it. I am just happy I don't fall backward anymore lol.


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm right there with you on "happy I don't fall over." I tried squatting while I was pregnant because it's supposed to be good for you, but I kept falling over, so I gave up... lol.

I noticed that I can get "all the way down" in a squat if I tuck my pelvis in. Without tucking, I can get about halfway down to the floor. So I have been squatting that way - really gripping in my glutes to protect my knees - and am finally starting to get deeper into it... not much. But a little... I read somewhere that flexibility is a function of strength rather than relaxation, and since I started thinking of it that way, I feel like I've seen more progress.

Ooh, actually here is a great picture :

Now just imagine a little old lady doing this, lol, and that's my mom.

I do kind of believe it's part of a range of motion, though, which does include a squat like the guy upthread on the pot.

The ones that really showed a good pelvic angle were all of bodybuilders for some reason. But like this

If only she weren't wearing heels on her shoes.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

A little off topic but just as a note the heels on the weightlifting shoes are hard (usually made of wood) & are not any higher than regular running shoes but they don't crush & move when a lot of weight is handled.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

so, are those (pics above) the ideal squats for improving bladder muscles? i can pretty much sit on the floor in a full yoga squat (i'm a little too flexible. my chiropractor warned me that i hurt myself without even knowing it sometimes.) so if that will help me with my own bladder issues (esp after i give birth to baby 3), i'm all for it! tell me more?


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Yes, according to one biomechanicist: http://www.katysays.com/2010/06/02/you-dont-know-squat/

Not everyone agrees with her, but I've spent some time reading her stuff and since I've been following her posture recommendations, I've seen an improvement - I used to have a hard time peeing through my urethrocystocele (which I had pre-baby), and it's gotten WAY better in the last six months. I didn't buy anything either, just started doing the stuff she recommends on her blog. I also do the other squat like the guy on the toilet, but I'm also working towards a feet flat, butt out squat.


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