# "extreme" cio



## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Question:

If you are letting a baby scream and aren't going to check on them, is it okay (legally) as long as your intent is for them to fall asleep? I just feel like, if you did that at any other time it would be neglect, but if you do it at bedtime it's sleep training. I'm not saying cio is abuse here, not saying my opinion on it one way or another. We parent to bed gently. But a lady in my church described this to me and... IDK... that doesn't sound like CIO to me and I don't understand how that wouldn't be considered something more?

And in cases like this, I feel like there is no way for me to recommend anything else to her, because she is obviously unmoved by her child cying and doesn't care at all. why would she be willing to do more work. I don't want to share the dangers and seem judgmental either. Tactful way to make a recommendation?


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## makuahine (Mar 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Question:

If you are letting a baby scream and aren't going to check on them, is it okay (legally) as long as your intent is for them to fall asleep?


I don't know the legalities of it, but this is abuse in my opinion. But I think that most people practice CIO a different way, don't they? I feel like there's some sort of method where you only let them cry for something like five minutes and then soothe them, and then start all over again, but I'm not sure since I haven't tried it.
Maybe you could mention (after researching what the actual method is) that some people practice CIO in a gentler way. I don't know that I would be able to be tactful at all if someone told me that they just shut the door and walk away while their baby screams. Good luck with that!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I think legally you'd be fine







As long as the child didn't end up injured or something.

-Angela


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

thats what I thought too makuahine... I kind of just want to avoid her now, Iwas really horrified. She was so passive about it. She said "oh sometimes she just babbles and other times she screams bloody murder but I NEVER (she stressed this word) go back in there."

*shudders*

I just thought surely this doesnt count as cio just because a person says thats what it is, but what do I know? I think people would call it neglect if she wasn't trying to get the baby to go to sleep but I think its really neglect no matter how you look at it. what if something bad happens? she wont check on the baby. im just concerned.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think legally you'd be fine







As long as the child didn't end up injured or something.

-Angela

this isn't right. i'm reallysad to hear this. the whole point of neglect being illegal is something bad COULD happen. why isnt it okay for someone to do this when they want to play bingo but its okay if they are "sleep training"

and wth, how is it training? no one said "here's a book" and I learned to read. I had to at very least be read to. I didnt learn to talk by being surrounded by mutes only. I didn't learn math by having advanced algebraic equations set in front of me. How does one learn something with NO support?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I have had people tell me that they let their child cry for 3 hours because "nothing was wrong, they were fed, changed, etc and they were tired and needed to go to sleep."









Def abuse in my book.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

It is abuse, and I do not care how one looks at it. I do not think they would like it if it were done to them down the line when they become disabled and need care. I have cared for friends of mine, of which some were very bad off. Never could I let them scream because I just wanted them to go to sleep. Actually, if I did something like that, adult protective services would have me investigated and thrown in jail on some hefty charges. I can't understand the double standard--why it is fine to handle babies in such an undignifying manner and not disabled adults. It is so sad that a baby is crying, no screaming, because in his mind it is a life or death situation that the parent is not responding, but the parent takes it with a grain of salt.

There is a ninety percent chance I have MS--we are just waiting on one more test to confirm this. If the time came that I was not able to speak or care for myself, i'd hate anyone who just left me to scream and cry just because they felt it was good for me...

If you want to know the truth, I could never talk to her again. I'd have extreme animosity towards her for treating her baby in such a cruel fashion. you are doing better than me for wanting to even try to talk to her in a tactful fashion because I could never be able to do that. Not to mention, CIO is a very touchy subject for me. And because I strongly view CIO of any form to be child abuse, it is hard to have a diplomatic conversation with anyone who does it.

You may want to give her some literature that shows the seriousness of this, letting her know that the baby feels it is a life or death situation because the survival of the infant depends upon the presence of the carer. Because the baby feels this way, it is freaking out something terrible. You could also turn her to look at Erik Erikson's eight stages of development and focus on the first one, which is trust versus mistrust, and tactfully explain that CIO can cause the baby to lose trust and confidence. Erik Erikson's stages of development can be found at http://www.learningplaceonline.com/s...ze/Erikson.htm Just for the heck of it, i'll post an excerpt from the article right here in regards to stage one.

"1. Infancy: Birth to 18 Months

"Ego Development Outcome: Trust vs. Mistrust

"Basic strength: Drive and Hope

"Erikson also referred to infancy as the Oral Sensory Stage (as anyone might who watches a baby put everything in her mouth) where the major emphasis is on the mother's positive and loving care for the child, with a big emphasis on visual contact and touch. If we pass successfully through this period of life, we will learn to trust that life is basically okay and have basic confidence in the future. If we fail to experience trust and are constantly frustrated because our needs are not met, we may end up with a deep-seated feeling of worthlessness and a mistrust of the world in general.

"Incidentally, many studies of suicides and suicide attempts point to the importance of the early years in developing the basic belief that the world is trustworthy and that every individual has a right to be here.

"Not surprisingly, the most significant relationship is with the maternal parent, or whoever is our most significant and constant caregiver."

"The Continuum Concept" is also a wonderful book for her to read. If you are worried about bogging her down too much with things to read, print out some of the articles from the stickies st the top of this specific forum. There are some good CIO articles there.

Since you say she goes to church with you, she obviously is a Christian. Perhaps, showing her to some Biblical resources would do good. As a matter of fact, that is the first thing you should do before directing her to any other literature. This way, she can see that even the Bible does not condone such a practice. The website is www.parentingfreedom.com It is an attachment parenting site that speaks from a Biblical perspective.

Give her an illistration. For instance, my favorite one is the adult being in a foreign country and not being able to speak the language or understand the culture. That adult has someone who is responsible for him, and the one responsible keeps him on a schedule. Finally, at the end of the day, that adult is placed in a strange room and locked in there. The responsible one expects that adult to go to bed; however, because the adult is in a strange country, in a strange and unfamiliar place, he cannot come to that reason. He just knows he is locked in there, cannot come out, and when he cries for help, nobody listens. Scary, huh? Then, tie it into the world of the baby. The baby has just come out of the womb into this big, scary world. Baby does not understand what is going on, hence the reason for clinging to mama for survival. All the sudden, mama disappears, and the baby freaks. When he screams out, nobody listens. So sad.

If you like my illistration, feel free to use it.

I wish you well on this. you are a brave one. Not to mention, you have a lot of self control if you are able to pull this off. Perhaps, I can learn a thing or two from you?

Keep us all updated. Let us know how things work out. Also, if my suggestions work, i'd love to know. Take care of yourself.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Thank you for the information. I worry because I know CIO can cause brain damage. There are emotional and physical side effects. I just don't understand how there are NO rules about this. I think its bad in every case, but how can this not been seen easily as horrible?


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

I am not sure why it is not outlawed, considering that it is not lawful to do such a thing in a institutionalized or caregiving setting. Not to mention, it is known, and there is enough literature out here to show that this is extremely harmful. What is taking it so long to classify such a thing as this as child abuse? It clearly is, especially if it can cause harm in more ways than one. Just as it should be unlawful to burn a child on a stove or beat him, it should be unlawful to practice or enforce, more like it, CIO.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

In the US we live in a society where it is okay to HIT your children. Even beat them with objects in some states. Of course it's "legal" to neglect them.










-Angela


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
In the US we live in a society where it is okay to HIT your children. Even beat them with objects in some states. Of course it's "legal" to neglect them.










-Angela

I could talk all day about how backwards our system is, about how they will snatch parent's children all because they want to do what is in their heart and love them; yet, if you hurt or neglect your children, they can stay. It is interesting how abuse in foster homes--yes, part of the system--is five times more than in regular homes. Oh, I really can go on about this, since i, myself, was victimized by the system, and were some of my very close friends. But that is another discussion for another time. So sad. Now we know why there are so many psychological problems on the rise. Hmmmmmmm. let me think...

Children really do have it bad...


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## Sheryl1678 (Sep 15, 2006)

I also feel it is abusive. Maybe not from a legal perspective but most certainly from a moral one.


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## StellaG (May 3, 2009)

Ok, I'm not condoning this in *any* way, but maybe it's not necessarily the case that the mother is hard-hearted and unmoved. Inexperienced first-time moms get bombarded with advice, a lot of it the CIO variety (our ped just encouraged us to start it the other day...sigh...) Obviously every woman on this board is the type of person who seeks out parenting information in order to make informed decisions, otherwise we wouldn't be here...but not everyone is like this, some people just trust the advice given by their moms/pediatricians/etc. which is very often CIO. It may pull at her heart strings to hear her baby cry, but because she has been told she should let the baby CIO, thinks that she is being a good mom by doing so (and therefore proudly proclaims she never goes in). Anyway, my point being, maybe she isn't beyond convincing if you tread gently (after all, no one likes to feel that they're being judged, esp. as mothers)... You know, "I was thinking about our conversation last week, when you said your baby could cry for hours sometimes. What a lot of racket that must make, and how hard for you to have to listen to that. I was thinking...I heard of a new approach that is supposed to work wonders, that might help for those hard nights...have you tried X?" It might be worth a try, for that poor baby's sake.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StellaG* 
Ok, I'm not condoning this in *any* way, but maybe it's not necessarily the case that the mother is hard-hearted and unmoved. Inexperienced first-time moms get bombarded with advice, a lot of it the CIO variety (our ped just encouraged us to start it the other day...sigh...) Obviously every woman on this board is the type of person who seeks out parenting information in order to make informed decisions, otherwise we wouldn't be here...but not everyone is like this, some people just trust the advice given by their moms/pediatricians/etc. which is very often CIO. It may pull at her heart strings to hear her baby cry, but because she has been told she should let the baby CIO, thinks that she is being a good mom by doing so (and therefore proudly proclaims she never goes in). Anyway, my point being, maybe she isn't beyond convincing if you tread gently (after all, no one likes to feel that they're being judged, esp. as mothers)... You know, "I was thinking about our conversation last week, when you said your baby could cry for hours sometimes. What a lot of racket that must make, and how hard for you to have to listen to that. I was thinking...I heard of a new approach that is supposed to work wonders, that might help for those hard nights...have you tried X?" It might be worth a try, for that poor baby's sake.

I love your approach, and I agree with you. I wish I could have that tact, but it is hard since the issue is a very, very sensitive one.

I have a much different take on things now, since I read both the babywise books out of curiosity tonight. I not only cried, but I now have a new perspective on things. I blame the experts for why the parents do what they do. While I will never, ever sway from the belief that CIO of any form is abuse to the fullest extent, I now feel sorry for parents because experts abuse their power, manipulating and trick them into ignoring their babies, their instincts, and enable them to ignore common sense. Sad what some people will do for a buck...


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

thanks you for the ideas. Yes, it's very sensitive to me so I didn't say anything since I didn't have any responses on hand that would be tactful. Maybe she thinks it's something she should be bragging about.

It's amazing the way the law works (or doesn't) when it comes to children. Soon the average child neglected (at least what the law considers) will catch on and they will just say "oh we were leep training" and th neglect will be forgiven. It makes no sense. I don't agree with CIO but I can see a difference between a parent who checks on the child and one who doesn.t I'd still owrry about brain damage and attachment issue sthough.


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## Rubber Ducky (Jul 16, 2009)

Sorry if someone has said this already. I haven't read all the replies. You say this mum goes to church? Ask her if she expects God to let her "cio" when she's troubled. Isn't He a refuge in times of trouble (Psalm 46:1)? Didn't Jesus say He will never leave or forsake us (Matt 28:20)? Shouldn't she be teaching her child that instead of the opposite?

Sometimes it could just be ignorance. She must think that this is the best way for her child and her. Tell her gently and don't ignore her. You'll be surprised how receptive one can be with a little patience and love.

You might even want to recommend "The Baby Book" by William and Marta Sears to her. They've written excellent books. Very pro attachment parenting and they give very good reasons (from pedeatric, parent and Christian point of views) for not letting baby cio.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I am not sure why it is not outlawed, considering that it is not lawful to do such a thing in a institutionalized or caregiving setting..


How could you outlaw it? How could you enforce it? I know some moms who don't change dirty diapers right away, put soda in bottles, etc. Who can tell them not to?

I think women are told their instincts are wrong and here are "modern" ways to raise a baby and give birth...I think many feel insecure about doing things from their gut.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Thats what I'm saying - that I understand why they allow some "bad parenting" - limited resources in every aspect. What gets me is it WOULD be considered neglect if it wasn't being done "for the purposes of sleep training" Why is it okay to leave a child crying all night and not check on them even if something bad might have happened just because "you are teaching them to sleep" if you did it because "i was watching a 3 hour long movie" it would be neglect. But if you were watching a 3 hour long moviewile "sleep training" then its not.


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## kai28 (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein* 
How could you outlaw it? How could you enforce it? I know some moms who don't change dirty diapers right away, put soda in bottles, etc. Who can tell them not to?

I think women are told their instincts are wrong and here are "modern" ways to raise a baby and give birth...I think many feel insecure about doing things from their gut.

Yup. couldn't agree more. But there are also a lot of people who don't seem to have a solid internal compass for whatever reason. People whose 'gut' steers them wrong (in many ways - not specifically just child rearing). And there is SO much conflicting advice out there, they can't tell which way is up. So they go with what THEIR parents did (which may explain the messed up internal compass in the first place) figuring that they survived ok... or they go with whatever "expert" is yelling loud enough to be heard.

My sister is one of those people & I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what maker her do the things she does. What makes her tick. The funny thing is, I think she does the same with me & can't figure out why I'm so bent on doing things "differently". Like human evolutionary history is a fad or something.

As far as CIO being illegal/child abuse: isn't that kind of a technicality? I wouldn't call the police on someone practicing CIO (I live in Mass. where I heard they want to outlaw cosleeping, so I'm hoping no one would call the police on me for doing what I thought was right). I KNOW it's wrong morally, at least for my family. In your situation, I would hope I'd be strong enough to provide gentle suggestions to alternatives to that mom, and I'm really impressed that you're putting the effort in to help.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think legally you'd be fine







As long as the child didn't end up injured or something.

-Angela

I don't know about other localities but when we get a cps complaint in concerning people hearing a baby scream on a routine visit, we make a visit. Usually it's not an investigator...it's usually a CPS prevention worker like me since there's no outright substanciated abuse (cuts, bruises, etc.)
Or agency does not support CIO and see it as a parenting behavior that needs correcting...and in extreme cases we have had neglect investigations based on CIO but that is usually just one of many concerning things that is going on in the home. We routinely hand out the NCSS and Happiest Baby on the Block.
Legally though - the police wouldn't get involved unless the CIO is just one of many disturbing things in the home.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Yea, thats what I mean though. If the intention is for the baby to go to sleep, no one would report a baby being left to cry for 3 hours without even having it's safety checked on. But if they did that "just because" then it wouldn't be okay.

I don't want to bring it up again, but if she does then I will try saying something more. Maybe I can say, "That must be so hard on both of you. With all the information on the dangers of letting a baby cry it out you must be really torn up over things, between teaching baby good sleeping habits and keeping baby safe and healthy. I'm more then happy to share what worked for us if you are interested. We didnt have to risk letting baby cry it out, but we still got them to sleep at night."

I'd have to practice that though and it'd probably sound like a speech lol. I'm not good at talking like that in person. I get all nervous just at the mention of these kinds of things, but I'd love to help her. She just seems, to be honest, really self centered. I remember when she was pregnant even at the church parties and stuff she barely ate anything because she didn't want to gain any weight (she told me this) and wanted a small baby (she got her wish). I just don't understand it. Usually i try to avoid her, but she's always coming up to me trying to compare our kids, which makes me uncomfortable because I know she is trying to make her kid look smarter then mine, but that's not the case. Could be because her little one is a little younger, but my childre was talking a lot moer at that age... and of course I just bite my tongue because I don't want to flame the fire with her competitiveness.

Sorry to go off on a tangent here. I just am trying to be tactful with her but sometimes it's hard.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
I don't know about other localities but when we get a cps complaint in concerning people hearing a baby scream on a routine visit, we make a visit. Usually it's not an investigator...it's usually a CPS prevention worker like me since there's no outright substanciated abuse (cuts, bruises, etc.)
Or agency does not support CIO and see it as a parenting behavior that needs correcting...and in extreme cases we have had neglect investigations based on CIO but that is usually just one of many concerning things that is going on in the home. We routinely hand out the NCSS and Happiest Baby on the Block.
Legally though - the police wouldn't get involved unless the CIO is just one of many disturbing things in the home.

I'm really glad to hear this. Sounds like you handle the situation tactfully too


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kai28* 
But there are also a lot of people who don't seem to have a solid internal compass for whatever reason. People whose 'gut' steers them wrong (in many ways - not specifically just child rearing). .


That's a good point. I guess mostly my experience is moms who are "afraid" to do what their gut tells them because of their Doc, parent, spouse, etc.


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## DianeMarie (Jul 7, 2009)

I'd totally stay out of it and not even say anything. Just because you don't like what she is doing or how she is doing it, it is not your place to tell her anything. People raise their kids how they want, and there is a lot of support from society and also from the medical world for letting a child go to sleep on it's own. And, it will never be viewed as neglect or "illegal" because of this very reason. Some people "wear" their children, some don't. Some people sleep with their children, some don't. Some people breastfeed, some don't. Short of her telling you that she all out beats her kid or something like that, I'd leave it alone. Mothers DO NOT LIKE being told how to raise their child or what to do with them!! Unless they're asking, don't "advise".

However---it seems to me that this woman may be a bit of a drama queen. To "brag" about your child screaming and "compare" your kid to someone else's kid is pretty silly to me. Every single kid on the face of this earth is different----every movement, every milestone, EVERYTHING!! To "compare" one child to the next is ridiculous, especially in things like "My child was walking by such-and-such a time. When did yours walk?" "My child was saying sentences by a certain time. When did yours say sentences?" If one child walked when they were 10 months old an the other child walked at a year and a half----then I wonder if the one who walked at 10 months is a "better" walker than the other child when they are 5 years old? KWIM? (Did anyone understand that?? LOL A bit confusing....) If the child who was saying sentences ealier than the other child, then how is their speech "different" when they are 10? (Considering they are both within "normal" development.) Somehow it makes mothers feel "better" about themselves if their kids are "faster" than their friend's or neighbor's kids, and it makes them feel better if they let everybody know it.

I find that mothers have a tendency to "brag" about when their kids did certain things---as if it makes a hill of beans difference when they are older, because it doesn't. Some kids are just faster than others, that's all. There are different external and surrounding factors which is a big contributing factor to their development.

There has been a lot of research done on baby's sleep patterns, sleep training, letting them cry and self-soothe, responding to every whimper, co-sleeping, sleeping in a crib in their own room........and there are LOTS of theories out there. As long as what someone is doing is acceptable by the standards, it will never be made "illegal".


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I understand that, I just don't understand why the same action is legal if you say you are sleep training but not if you aren't. screaming in such excess and saying "no matter what I dont check on them" seems off to me... like it's going beyond cio methods.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein* 
That's a good point. I guess mostly my experience is moms who are "afraid" to do what their gut tells them because of their Doc, parent, spouse, etc.

Their gut may be telling them in the beginning that it is "wrong" and that they need to pick up baby, but most CIO'ers I know let their baby cry a lot during the day too (like 10 minutes here and there) before responding, and by doing so they become almost numb to the sound of their baby's cries. So their "gut" feelings have sort of been lost.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Another thought on why it probably isn't 'outlawed'--- Babies cry. A lot. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop it. Of course, as an AP parent, we hold our babies and try to sooth them as much as possible. But there are babies that cry for hours on end no matter what you do. And every baby is different. I think babies are a mystery to those who have never had a baby, and even to those who have had 'easy' babies. And to those who had babies long ago- they forget what it's like sometimes. I feel like I'm babbling and not getting my point across... does anyone get what i'm saying?


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

What mystifies me about it is this.

These women spend 40 weeks walking on eggshells, sitting on cushions, banning the coffee pot to the garage so they don't even smell it, not lifting more than the 64 ounces of water they religiously drank every day, never missing a prenatal, always sleeping on the "right" side, shopping at a different store so they don't walk by the deli lest they be tempted to eat fatal deli meat, avoiding the company fourth of July picnic because someone may offer them a killer hot dog, calling the doc every time they hiccup and a little pain happens, visiting the ER six times in 9 months because they think they're in labor, on message boards every day asking if "this is their mucus plug", asking for and taking every single test prenatal available, including 32 ultrasounds, being so obsessed over making sure this little being in them is absolutely 100% no questions asked getting the best, healthiest, happiest start in life -

then they immediately leave them alone in bed to "train" them to be independent, because clearly they're manipulating mama and getting spoiled and will NEVER (that word makes me cringe) sleep on their own.










_(yeah, I skipped over the whole gimme dangerous drugs in labor as soon as the first contraction comes, but that would've lessened the impact of what I was saying!)_


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

^ Spitting out the water, again!


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
What mystifies me about it is this.

These women spend 40 weeks walking on eggshells, sitting on cushions, banning the coffee pot to the garage so they don't even smell it, not lifting more than the 64 ounces of water they religiously drank every day, never missing a prenatal, always sleeping on the "right" side, shopping at a different store so they don't walk by the deli lest they be tempted to eat fatal deli meat, avoiding the company fourth of July picnic because someone may offer them a killer hot dog, calling the doc every time they hiccup and a little pain happens, visiting the ER six times in 9 months because they think they're in labor, on message boards every day asking if "this is their mucus plug", asking for and taking every single test prenatal available, including 32 ultrasounds, being so obsessed over making sure this little being in them is absolutely 100% no questions asked getting the best, healthiest, happiest start in life -

then they immediately leave them alone in bed to "train" them to be independent, because clearly they're manipulating mama and getting spoiled and will NEVER (that word makes me cringe) sleep on their own.










_(yeah, I skipped over the whole gimme dangerous drugs in labor as soon as the first contraction comes, but that would've lessened the impact of what I was saying!)_

Good point, I think it's bc society tells them that it's the right thing to do, on both counts. Not a lot of free thinking and information seeking going on. (I also place more blame on society, experts, peds, etc. than any indiv. mom. Just being myself and doing things the way I do I have been an example to other moms-the one's not set in their ways-and influenced the care of their babies. I think this is sometimes all we can do).


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Isn't that what Ferber recommends? If I remember correctly, he conceeds that some weak-kneed parents may feel the need to check on their babies but that it definetly for the parents not the kids.

If a parent really wants to give them the "proper start" they won't check because it only prolongs the amount of time before babies gives up and goes to sleep.


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## Epona (Jul 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but I think its really neglect no matter how you look at it. what if something bad happens? she wont check on the baby. im just concerned.









I agree. WhAt if the baby chokes, and she thinks she has just fallen asleep? Geez, it makes me sick.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
Isn't that what Ferber recommends?

He recanted. I *have* to go find that article. I was just telling a new mother about it a couple weeks ago, and meant to look it up then...


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I know true love.* 







I agree. WhAt if the baby chokes, and she thinks she has just fallen asleep? Geez, it makes me sick.







:

This is what I mean... it's so scary to me!

I will say, most CIOers I know never cared more about the baby during pregnancy though. They didn't quit smoking, they had planned inductions with planned epidurals or planned c-sections. They barely ate so they would stay skinny and so they could have low birth weight babies (on purpose) they were taking castor oil before they even reached term... not saying all CIOers i know are like this, but the ones I personally know, most of them were this way. I shouldn't be surprised they don't seem to care I guess. A lot of women in my church have babies because it's part of some "program" for life or something ??


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## Jen-o (Jun 16, 2009)

Your description of her technique reminds me of one of the books I read looking for a way to get my dd to sleep better. (4th one I read at the time - definitely not the best) He was a doctor, and he advocated letting babies cry for however long it takes. He doesn't believe in incremental CIO. Maybe she read that book, and figured that she was following a method described by a doctor, so how bad could it be. (BTW I couldn't swallow that technique at all. We are still co-sleeping at nearly 11 months, and DD barely cries.)

I second the suggestion that you bring it up next time you see her in a "by the way" kind of way. I always have ladies at church giving me advice about my baby (seeing as I'm the only one with a baby), so it wouldn't necessarily be weird. Just suggest a lighter method or different book to read to give her some perspective!


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I was that mum. I did it because I was seriously depressed, I had a colicky baby who was sleeping for 3 hours in 24 or less, and doing it in 45 minute increments, and I was told it was the right thing to do and it would make my life bearable. As Lady Catherine hinted, my kid screamed nonstop anyhow- what difference would screaming make if he wasn't in my arms?

Your church needs to get off the fence and get involved. You have two extremely vulnerable individuals in your midst who need love and support and compassion and information. If this is a first child, as mine was, then giving her new skills and your time and your energy will change not just two lives, but more.
Oh, and maybe if our half-assed backwards society didn't expect mothers to be able to parent, pump breastmilk, hold down a full time job, do half the house work and create an interesting and educational craft activity for your children each and every day then maybe having children who sleep would be a little less critical.


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

I actually don't think it would be considered "neglect" even if not done for "sleep training purposes". i.e. if a child were having what the parent perceived to be a tantrum and they just let them cry, I don't think that would legally be considered neglect either. As a PP said -- unless there were other concerning things in the home, I don't think CPS or the police would get involved if the child came to no physical harm. Not saying it's right, but I am just disagreeing that it would be legally or even just socially considered child abuse in other circumstances. Our society suffers a lot of things to be done and letting your child cry is one of the freedoms you have as a parent. And to be totally honest, I think it ought to remain that way. I don't want government getting involved and telling me how to raise my kids, whether I have to get them vaccinated, etc. so I think I have to give other people the leeway to raise their kids their way.

P.S. BTW, this method of CIO was introduced to me as "extinction CIO". The idea was that you/your child suffer through a few nights of terrible crying but that the child would "learn to sleep on their own" more quickly because they're not getting mixed messages. What really bothers me about the lady at your church is that she seems to be doing this on an on-going basis? I think even a pro-CIO person would see this as neglect.


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## nerdymom (Mar 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StellaG* 
Ok, I'm not condoning this in *any* way, but maybe it's not necessarily the case that the mother is hard-hearted and unmoved. Inexperienced first-time moms get bombarded with advice, a lot of it the CIO variety (our ped just encouraged us to start it the other day...sigh...) Obviously every woman on this board is the type of person who seeks out parenting information in order to make informed decisions, otherwise we wouldn't be here...but not everyone is like this, some people just trust the advice given by their moms/pediatricians/etc. which is very often CIO. It may pull at her heart strings to hear her baby cry, but because she has been told she should let the baby CIO, thinks that she is being a good mom by doing so (and therefore proudly proclaims she never goes in). Anyway, my point being, maybe she isn't beyond convincing if you tread gently (after all, no one likes to feel that they're being judged, esp. as mothers)... You know, "I was thinking about our conversation last week, when you said your baby could cry for hours sometimes. What a lot of racket that must make, and how hard for you to have to listen to that. I was thinking...I heard of a new approach that is supposed to work wonders, that might help for those hard nights...have you tried X?" It might be worth a try, for that poor baby's sake.

I say, say something! Poor baby needs an advocate. If this mama is on the fence about it, then suggesting a different way, like StellaG proposed, may be the catalyst that changes her behavior.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
What mystifies me about it is this.

These women spend 40 weeks walking on eggshells, sitting on cushions, banning the coffee pot to the garage so they don't even smell it, not lifting more than the 64 ounces of water they religiously drank every day, never missing a prenatal, always sleeping on the "right" side, shopping at a different store so they don't walk by the deli lest they be tempted to eat fatal deli meat, avoiding the company fourth of July picnic because someone may offer them a killer hot dog, calling the doc every time they hiccup and a little pain happens, visiting the ER six times in 9 months because they think they're in labor, on message boards every day asking if "this is their mucus plug", asking for and taking every single test prenatal available, including 32 ultrasounds, being so obsessed over making sure this little being in them is absolutely 100% no questions asked getting the best, healthiest, happiest start in life -

then they immediately leave them alone in bed to "train" them to be independent, because clearly they're manipulating mama and getting spoiled and will NEVER (that word makes me cringe) sleep on their own.










_(yeah, I skipped over the whole gimme dangerous drugs in labor as soon as the first contraction comes, but that would've lessened the impact of what I was saying!)_









this is my friend, seriously. I broke all the "rules" for pregnant women, and she followed them. Now she did have a vaginal birth and my waterbirth ended in a c/s, but on the whole we were your stereotypical mainstream and crunchy odd couple. And nothing has changed. She's CIOing and I'm cosleeping, the list goes on. Now she knows how I feel about CIO, but that doesn't change her mind either. And if she lets him CIO while I'm there, then I leave.

The thing is, I really do feel that CIO is abuse. But I think that people get away with it because so many people don't really see babies as _human_. Too many times I have heard new parents say things like "He looks almost human when he does that" Or "She's like a real person now!"







Sad but true. Maybe if culturally we began to accept newborns as intrinsically human then we can begin to see CIO for what it is: emotional and physical abuse of a helpless individual.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nerdymom* 
The thing is, I really do feel that CIO is abuse. But I think that people get away with it because so many people don't really see babies as _human_. Too many times I have heard new parents say things like "He looks almost human when he does that" Or "She's like a real person now!"







Sad but true. Maybe if culturally we began to accept newborns as intrinsically human then we can begin to see CIO for what it is: emotional and physical abuse of a helpless individual.









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