# Issue in English class



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

My oldest (boy, age 14) brought home a permission slip for English class to read the book _Speak_ by Laurie Halse Anderson. The slip said that there was mention of sexual assault and rape in the book, so if we weren't comfortable with our child reading that, they could do an alternate project.

I've never heard of this book, and was shocked that it would be considered for an English project! I said no, my child would not read that book.

What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

What does "mention" mean? Now I want to read it! As a former English teacher I'm curious and feel ill informed.

Really there's a lot of sex stuff "mentioned" in a lot of great literature. Off topic a bit but it always annoyed me when people got upset about _Brave New World_, something that really got me thinking as a teen. I'm so glad I read it in high school, and think it's terrible that it's now making the banned lists.

Hm, I wonder if the school would send a note about Romeo & Juliet? The only thing any of my schools ever sent a note about, that I can remember, was us watching a documentary on concentration camps. It was graphic. I distinctly remember some parents opted out of it too.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

I had to look it up, and here it is in a nutshell:

"Melinda Sordino can classify every incoming and returning student at Merryweather High according to the clique to which he/she belongs. The only problem is that she doesn't belong to any of them -- not the jocks, punks, nerds, Marthas, bandgeeks -- not a single one. She used to, but not any more. Not after what she did.

What she did was call the cops to bust up a party at the end of summer. Not out of spite or stupidity, though that's what everyone thinks. They don't know the real reason, and most of them really don't want to know. Even if they did, Melinda couldn't tell them. Even if she wanted to.

Rape is not a word that falls freely from the tongue."

It's about a freshman girl who is raped at a party and almost speaks up but doesn't, resulting in her becoming withdrawn and alienated. If only that plot weren't so realistic. Sounds like it would be a good discussion starter. It deals a lot with the first year of high school so I'm sure that's why it was selected for his grade.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I don't see the problem with a 14 year old reading a book that has sexual assault mentioned or as part of the plot. I believe my Dd read two books when she was 12/13 that did actually.

What is your reason for wanting him to avoid it?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't know that book, but I will share this.

My hs'd teen and I just read To Kill a Mockingbird together , and rape is more than mentioned. It's a central theme. (My teen hser is 15). I think TKAM is a really important piece of American lit. As an unschooler, I was thrilled she indulged me my suggestion. . I was afraid she would say "No, thanks" , but she did not. I was grateful, as I think it's too important a piece of lit to pass by.

I don't think a book with a rape theme, in and of itself, is a reason to not read it. In fact, it may give voice to those without voice.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
My oldest (boy, age 14) brought home a permission slip for English class to read the book _Speak_ by Laurie Halse Anderson. The slip said that there was mention of sexual assault and rape in the book, so if we weren't comfortable with our child reading that, they could do an alternate project.

I've never heard of this book, and was shocked that it would be considered for an English project! I said no, my child would not read that book.

What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?

I haven't read that book, but as a HS English teacher I can tell you that many of the books we read have at least some mention of sex, and rape is not that unusual. This isn't true because I am so salacious that I just love exposing children to sexual content, but rather because this is the reading list the district creates.

I think that being exposed to concepts in class is a fairly good thing for most children. I think that, given the description someone else posted, this book in particular sounds like a really on-topic sort of book for high schoolers. You of course have the right to restrict your child's exposure, but these things *are* in the world. It's better to think about them in advance in the abstract than to be totally ignorant and become a victim.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I think you are overreacting. If your ds is any kind of a reader at all, he has encountered such topics before. I'm sure he has heard of them. This sounds like a good book for an adolescent.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

I read this book when i was 16, I loved it. Its an amazing book about a girl and her personal struggles. I think you should let him read it, because its such a good book.

I dont exactly understand why you wouldn't want him to read it. Maybe if he was 10 or 11 but he is 14 and in highschool so i think he should be able to read about more 'mature' topics. It could be a great discussion opener for you two too.

Edit/
Oh and there is a movie made out of the book too. Maybe after he reads that you guys can watch it to get a better understanding. The book is much much better then the film though.
Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_(film)


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'd say you're over-reacting. Teens really get a lot out of reading books with deeper subject matter.

-Angela


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

I guess I'm just over-reacting then. I still said no though.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

How does your ds feel about that?


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Maybe you could just read it with him outside of school. I think my only concern as a parent would be whether his classmates of that age could handle the subject matter maturely in discussions etc.--that is to say if you don't know them well.

BTW, the school could have framed it in a better light. How about a brief explanation of plot and/or themes, rather than just saying sexual assault and rape...


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

I read it. It's an excellent book. Whether you're overreacting would depend on how ready your ds is to deal with disturbing themes.

I am a former English prof, btw, but I don't have a teen boy, so take my advice with a grain of salt.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

I wish more young teens, girls AND particularly boys, would read books that give them a glimpse into the aftermath of a rape.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I have a teen boy (16). He read _TKAM_ a few summers ago - I think between 7th & 8th grade. He's rereading it now for school. I don't always agree with his reading choices, but I've yet to censor any of them (much to the chagrin on my mother). He hasn't read _Speak_, but I would not have had any problem with his reading it, now or at 14. He read _Night_ at 14, which is a pretty tough read, in terms of subject matter.

I also have a teen girl (14). She hasn't been as big of a reader as her brother, but has started to get more into it over the past year. Her topic of choice is.... genocide. She's currently reading two books - _A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich_ (about the Soviet Gulags) and _Doctors From Hell_ (a very detailed and graphic description of the Nuremburg trials regarding medical experiment). Neither of them are "pretty" books, and both are quite mature reading. But again, I don't censor their reading choices.

I suppose that, if there was a book I personally wasn't keen on, I'd read it along with the kiddo.

What, exactly, is your objection?


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I'd say you're over-reacting. Teens really get a lot out of reading books with deeper subject matter.

-Angela

I agree. I've not read the book, but I wouldn't censor my child's reading at any age.

I do hope the teacher is at least mature about it. I had a sophomore English teacher who was uncomfortable talking about sex in relationship to _The Crucible_. I loved that play (long before it ever came up in class), was well-educated on it (again, long before it ever came up in class), and she was such an @$$ about it.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
I wish more young teens, girls AND particularly boys, would read books that give them a glimpse into the aftermath of a rape.

Yes, me, too.


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## bu's mama (Mar 25, 2004)

It is an excellent book. I would definitely let him read it.

It was on the high school summer reading list last year for the district I worked in then & it's also on my district's summer reading list.

They are likely asking for permission because they don't want parents surprised by the content & discussions. They wouldn't ask for permission for something like Romeo & Juliet because the content is well established.

It is more about the reasons the girl kept the attack secret, how it impacts her relationships with her friends and how she deals with the aftermath. I agree with the pp's that it's important for teens to observe the aftermath & far reaching effects of rape.

Since we're on the topic...Inexcusable by Chris Lynch is about rape from the boy's perspective & doesn't think he did anything wrong. It's not as good as Speak, but still pretty good & a very interesting perspective.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
He read _Night_ at 14, which is a pretty tough read, in terms of subject matter.

Oh yeah I forgot this one. I did a unit on it with 8th graders, in a Catholic school. They had many questions but I feel handled it fine. The other English teacher there was doing the unit as well.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
I agree. I've not read the book, but I wouldn't censor my child's reading at any age.

I do hope the teacher is at least mature about it. I had a sophomore English teacher who was uncomfortable talking about sex in relationship to _The Crucible_. I loved that play (long before it ever came up in class), was well-educated on it (again, long before it ever came up in class), and she was such an @$$ about it.









The teacher is 22 years old, fresh out of college. I don't think SHE'S mature enough to teach material like that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bu's mama* 
It is an excellent book. I would definitely let him read it.

It was on the high school summer reading list last year for the district I worked in then & it's also on my district's summer reading list.

They are likely asking for permission because they don't want parents surprised by the content & discussions. They wouldn't ask for permission for something like Romeo & Juliet because the content is well established.

It is more about the reasons the girl kept the attack secret, how it impacts her relationships with her friends and how she deals with the aftermath. I agree with the pp's that it's important for teens to observe the aftermath & far reaching effects of rape.

Since we're on the topic...Inexcusable by Chris Lynch is about rape from the boy's perspective & doesn't think he did anything wrong. It's not as good as Speak, but still pretty good & a very interesting perspective.


So, how detailed is the sexual assault/rape?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
The teacher is 22 years old, fresh out of college. I don't think SHE'S mature enough to teach material like that.

Ouch. As a person she's not mature enough? Or no 22 yr old fresh out of college would be?

Because as a 22yr old -fresh out of college- teacher I would have been fine teaching this sort of material.

-Angela


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Ouch. As a person she's not mature enough? Or no 22 yr old fresh out of college would be?

Because as a 22yr old -fresh out of college- teacher I would have been fine teaching this sort of material.

-Angela

As a person. I regret even posting this now.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
As a person. I regret even posting this now.

Okay. Some people aren't. But then perhaps they aren't good teachers for 14 yr olds at all.









-Angela


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tex.mom* 
I had to look it up, and here it is in a nutshell:

"Melinda Sordino can classify every incoming and returning student at Merryweather High according to the clique to which he/she belongs. The only problem is that she doesn't belong to any of them -- not the jocks, punks, nerds, Marthas, bandgeeks -- not a single one. She used to, but not any more. Not after what she did.

What she did was call the cops to bust up a party at the end of summer. Not out of spite or stupidity, though that's what everyone thinks. They don't know the real reason, and most of them really don't want to know. Even if they did, Melinda couldn't tell them. Even if she wanted to.

Rape is not a word that falls freely from the tongue."

It's about a freshman girl who is raped at a party and almost speaks up but doesn't, resulting in her becoming withdrawn and alienated. If only that plot weren't so realistic. Sounds like it would be a good discussion starter. It deals a lot with the first year of high school so I'm sure that's why it was selected for his grade.

Wow from this description I think that it could be a great spring board for so many conversations, so yep I would let my son read it.


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## Shahbazin (Aug 3, 2006)

I read it a few years ago, as it was one of a group of books I got w/Scholastic bonus pts for my classroom (grades 5-8); I remember it being a good, thought-provoking book, & several students did book reports on it. FWIW, I was the middle school English teacher at a small Christian school, & we read To Kill a Mockingbird as a class in 6th grade. I tried to present/provide books with young protagonists facing peer pressure or in finding one's personal strengths in dealing with larger issues.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Can you explain what your concerns are with the book?


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Can you explain what your concerns are with the book?









I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Why don't you think these topics should be discussed in school? What is the fear, exactly? I'm not being snarky, I just want to understand where you're coming from on this. So many other "unpleasant" topics are discussed in school: war, slavery, genocide. What makes this topic different?


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

Unfortunately, as high school teachers and administrators are aware, such things happen - if not in school (although sometimes, in fact, in school), in relation to it. The social structures constructed and enforced by and among students in high schools sometimes perpetuate sexual assault and silence concerning sexual assault. Class discussions of fiction about the problem are one way to get students to consider the problem and think about ethical behavior.

I would want my kid to participate in that discussion if it was going on - not because I want him to have his nose ground into horrifying reality, but because I want him to know that sexual assault and the aftermath of assault are problems in this culture, and to think about himself and his actions in relation to that fact.

I haven't read Speak, but if I were a teacher, I'd be looking at:
The actual assault - who commits it, and who directly or indirectly enables it.
The affect of the assault upon the victim.
The effect of the assault (and the victim's inability to talk about it or report it) on other people in that social sphere.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

I realize this is my personal experience, but I was in 9th grade the first time a friend was raped (incidentally by an older, popular guy). She did speak up and no one believed her, and she was shunned by everyone, including the parents.







I had a couple friends confide similar events to me later, but no one ever spoke up again.

I truly believe these issues are discussed in many schools at this age, outside of the classroom setting.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.


Why? I don't mean to sound like a broken record or a 4 year old going through the "why" stage, but I am genuinely interested in your reasoning.

I think it's extremely important for young people to learn about sexual assault, harassment, and etc. They need to understand that it's not taboo and can and should be discussed.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bu's mama* 
Since we're on the topic... Inexcusable by Chris Lynch is about rape from the boy's perspective & doesn't think he did anything wrong. It's not as good as Speak, but still pretty good & a very interesting perspective.

Thank you for recommending this. I hadn't heard of it before and it sounds really interesting.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

I'm really interested in how your son feels? Do you censor what books he checks out of the library?


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 

Why? I don't mean to sound like a broken record or a 4 year old going through the "why" stage, but I am genuinely interested in your reasoning.

I think it's extremely important for young people to learn about sexual assault, harassment, and etc. They need to understand that it's not taboo and can and should be discussed.

That's where I disagree. There's a time & place for things like that, but it's not at school, and not at that age.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

I understand having that feeling in elementary, but not at all in high school? It seems to be a very valid topic in high school. Many classic works of literature mention it in some form or another. Most school districts would not even TELL you, much less ask permission.

-Angela


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## PMolly (Dec 16, 2005)

Speak is one of my favorite teen lit books. It's really more about the girl finding her voice and being able to stand up for herself after this really awful thing happens to her in the beginning of the book. The author did a great job of depicting some of the emotional torture teens go through from their peers and themselves. It's not a book ABOUT rape, but that does happen in it.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

I just had to stop here and pull my jaw off the keyboard.

Are you naive? Do you really think that sexual assault and rape don't happen to 14 year olds?

I keep having to stop, and rewrite because what I want to say violates the U/A.

I'll say this: it is YOUR attitude, and the attitude of many people like you, which is the reason that so many young girls (and BOYS) are sexually assaulted and don't report it.

Please consider changing your tune. It is damaging...to EVERYONE...and helpful...to NO ONE.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
That's where I disagree. There's a time & place for things like that, but it's not at school, and not at that age.

So....why not? Do you think 14 year olds don't get assaulted?

HOnestly, reading what you are writing is making me absolutely. livid.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

To butcher a favorite catchphrase: Won't it be a glorious day when schools freely teach deep, thoughtful literature that gets to the heart of the human experience, and they have to send home permission slips to read The Babysitters Club and Sweet Valley High?


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## Ruth S (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
To butcher a favorite catchphrase: Won't it be a glorious day when schools freely teach deep, thoughtful literature that gets to the heart of the human experience, and they have to send home permission slips to read The Babysitters Club and Sweet Valley High?

















:

And even more, Gossip Girls and those other disgusting series that are all the rage now.

To the OP -- I am someone who believes in sheltering my children; why is it that they have to grow up so quickly these days? Nonetheless, I think that highschool is an appropriate time to be exposed to what really goes on in this sometimes ugly world, be it poverty, war, sexual abuse or whatever.


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## mom de terre (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
That's where I disagree. There's a time & place for things like that, but it's not at school, and not at that age.

I'd love to agree with this statement, but as a high school teacher I can tell you that graphic conversations about sexual content are taking place. You can prevent your kid from possibly maturely discussing the consequences of sexual violence in a moderated setting, but you can't do much about what he is hearing in the halls.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I'll say this: it is YOUR attitude, and the attitude of many people like you, which is the reason that so many young girls (and BOYS) are sexually assaulted and don't report it.

Please consider changing your tune. It is damaging...to EVERYONE...and helpful...to NO ONE.

This isn't fair. No, it isn't her attitude that causes young girls and boys to not report sexual assault. Sexual assault is very complicated and reporting it is very hard. My mother didn't censor anything I read and my mother didn't care what I did at school and I didn't report sexual assault when I was in high school.

Attacking her and blaming her for terrible things isn't going to help the situation.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Gee thanks for the helpful and wonderful advice. I really apreciate it







.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I haven't read the book, but I think reading it yourself first would give you a better idea on whether it is something you want your son reading it.

I can see in a classroom setting it being more of a controlled conversation & putting truth vs false information out there about rape & assault.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

When my bf and i were in 9th grade, she was raped. It is age appropriate to talk about it, because it's happening at that age. Off to see if our library has it for my 14 yo dd...


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## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

I teach high school and I have a 12 year old son. When he is 14, I would be fine with him reading the book. I have read it and it is not sexually explicit at all. It deals with the trauma of rape moreso than the actual act. Most of my students have already seen the movie and really like it. It was also on a summer reading list when I taught at an all girls Catholic school- I teach co-ed public now.

I am teaching To Kill a Mockingbird right now and there are tons of issues that we discuss. I also feel that many parents would be surprised to find out what their kids know about and talk about. I know I was shocked when I first started teaching.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

OP, I'm wondering, and don't mean this to be at all snarky, why did you ask for advice on this? It sounds like you have already made up your mind.

Personally, I find the subject matter appropriate for that age group. Like many others, I had friends who were sexually assaulted and raped in high school. I especially think it's important for boys to be exposed to discussion of rape and the aftermath, since it is often an overlooked topic with them.

Would it be possible to talk to his teacher and find out how she intends to discuss/teach the book?


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Support is not always "you're right." As a matter of fact, the best support challenges us to question our own tightly-held opinions. I think what I saw was awesome support. And I'm going out to buy that book for 13yo DD!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Support doesn't mean people tell you you're right, when you're wrong.

And in this particular instance, you are very, very, VERY wrong.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.

Most of the posts here seem helpful and supportive to me, even if they don't agree with your point of view totally. Several people made suggestions for alternatives, like you reading the book with your son if you don't feel comfortable with the teacher, that seem like they want to help you think of options.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

OP, the questions you asked were:

"What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?"

People have answered your questions. If you wanted a support only thread for parents who don't approve of teens reading about rape, you should said so. But that's not the discussion you started.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.


I hope change your mind and return. Honestly, I do believe that you are overreacting. High school is not a PG environment anymore. I worked in a high school for a few years, was the student council sponsor for one, and you would be shocked at some of the discussions that I overheard in the halls on a daily basis. maybe if some of these kids had read a book and then discussed it in a classroom with their peers and a teacher maybe their attitudes would be different about sex and how to treat the opposite sex. Chances are your son will be the only one not reading the book. In high school kids look for reasons to exclude classmates, reasons to call them different. I would hate to think that my child would have to suffer at all because I felt that he wasn't ready to read a book discussing sexual assault in the classroom. Instead of saying he can't read the book why don't you read along with him, discuss the book at night before they discuss it in class. If you feel that the content in that section of the book is too much for him to handle keep him home that day. I just wouldn't stop him from participating in a classroom discussion that could benefit the entire class.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I can say I would worry a bit about sensitive issues being discussed in clalss - - but I have trust issues with schools









Can you read it first and then go from there? Either let him read it at school, and then discuss it at home as well, or only read it at home? (if he is Ok with not reading/discussing it in class)

It does sound like a goodish book - and may lead to some really interesting discussions. My DS is 12, not 14, but I remember being concerned with whether he should read The Giver. I let him, we had some really cool discussions, and it remains one of his favourite books. Sometimes kids suprise us with what they are ready for.

Kathy


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## The Harpy (Apr 1, 2008)

I have a 14 yr old DD and they read this book in her english class together and did chapter discussions. There was ONE child whose parent said "no" and so during English that child had to sit in the hallway and work on homework. She was pretty much left out of 2 weeks of English class.







Keep that in mind too.

If I were you I would read the book and then decide.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

So by advice, is what you actually wanted was for everyone to agree with only your point of view? I think most people's reactions here have been mature and respectful to you.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
High school is not a PG environment anymore. I worked in a high school for a few years, was the student council sponsor for one, and you would be shocked at some of the discussions that I overheard in the halls

I have to ask, what was your own high school experience? I'm being earnest. A few others here have basically said the same, even the original theme of this post, and when people use terms like "anymore" and "shocked," it always makes me wonder, what was high school like for you? I promise I'm not being sarcastic at all...I know it's hard to tell in print sometimes!


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## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tex.mom* 
I have to ask, what was your own high school experience? I'm being earnest. A few others here have basically said the same, even the original theme of this post, and when people use terms like "anymore" and "shocked," it always makes me wonder, what was high school like for you? I promise I'm not being sarcastic at all...I know it's hard to tell in print sometimes!

No kidding: When I was in high school in the 80s:

* One of my oldest friends got pregnant at 15.
* I spent 3 years waiting for her boyfriend to make good on his threats to kill her.
* At least once a year a student died or was left severely incapacitated after a group of friends got drunk and someone shot someone else.
* A classmate was stabbed to death, and it was in part his own fault. (He had been threatening the person who stabbed him.)
* Another classmate and friend of a friend was using uppers so that he could work almost full time while in high school (and on the tennis team and in several other extracurriculur activities) and then smoking pot to bring himself down.
* Half of the folks in the accelerated classes were using heavy drugs on weekends.
* A friend of mine had to use the money she had saved for a band trip to Florida to pay for an abortion.
* I knew a lot of people for whom the best meal of the day was the free one at school.
* I knew several girls who were in relationships that could be considered statutory rape (15-yo girl dating a 27-yo man).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tex.mom* 
I have to ask, what was your own high school experience? I'm being earnest. A few others here have basically said the same, even the original theme of this post, and when people use terms like "anymore" and "shocked," it always makes me wonder, what was high school like for you? I promise I'm not being sarcastic at all...I know it's hard to tell in print sometimes!

I attended a high school in the same district in which I worked. Honestly, the things that I noticed that were different (and just so you know 10 years had passed from my graduation to my returning as an employee) were mainly behavioral differences and it's kinda hard to put into words. The attitude of boys towards girls seemed to be less, they used more vulgar language when describing them, used more crude terms when addressing them, lots more sexual gestures in the hallways, attitude towards teachers and staff members changed too, more kids frequently used profanity when speaking with teachers, seemed to have no problem talking back to a teacher, had less respect. The girls seemed to wear more exposing clothing (I know also a sign of the change in fashions), seemed to value themselves less, talked about fooling around with guys in a much more casual manner, I don't know. Like I said it is really hard to put into words. When I was in high school I was in a lot of AP classes, did really well in school, but I also hung out with the popular crowd, sang in the choir, played sports, basically knew kids from all kinds of backgrounds. Maybe the kids just seemed older to me, I really don't know. Does this make any sense? (I'm not saying none of this went on when I was in school just that it was more out in the open now)


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

This discussion kind of reminds me of when I was in 9th grade and we had to have premission for the sex ed part of health class. My mom did not want to sign the slip because the class discussed how abortions were preformed and stds. She ended up relenting only when I reminded her that she had had no problem with my brother taking the same class the year before.

And to the OP, please rethink MDC. I do not share many of the same ideas that people on this board do, but I have found lots of good information and advice here, not to mention lots of food for thought.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Ya' got a permission slip. Your child doesn't have to be exposed to that book if you don't want him to be. You have a choice. He reads it, or doesn't. What, exactly, is the problem??


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

The books I read for English class in middle school and high school were largely heavy and dealt with intense topics. Unless school has changed drastically, I think you are in for a long road if you object to heavy material.

FWIW - I do not think all the heavy material I was exposed to in high school was positive. I was on occasion left without closure after reading heavy stuff - not good.

I think, for the love of reading, a few lighter novels could have been thrown in. The fact that I was not turned off reading by my high school English is truly amazing - and probably thanks to my mother who kept a good supply of popular fiction around.

Good luck with all this. What does your DS have to say?


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I attended a high school in the same district in which I worked. Honestly, the things that I noticed that were different (and just so you know 10 years had passed from my graduation to my returning as an employee) were mainly behavioral differences and it's kinda hard to put into words.

Okay, I get it a little, and you did a pretty good job of putting it into words. I went back and taught at my high school as well, and I guess some things had changed in terms of attitude. I mean we already had kids majorly disrespecting teachers, hard drugs, pregnancy, std's, and everything else (and btw some of the _worst_ stuff went on in our honors classes), but I did notice one thing changed, now that you mention it. Girls had gotten way more aggressive with each other. Starting fist fights in class (honors class again!), name calling, one even stabbed another almost to death--all over boys.







I mean obviously over deeper issues, but... Yeah, so that was different to me.


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## PregnantMomma20 (Mar 1, 2008)

I would be completely okay with my child reading that book, in fact, I'd probably want to read it too! As someone who was raped (and got pregnant from it at 14...my freshman year of high school) I KNOW the pain that comes from that experience, and I think anything that allows it to be talked about and get information out there is wonderful. Granted, I strongly feel there has to be a level of maturity, and I would not introduce this book or topic any earlier. I just know how horrible I felt walking the halls pregnant and being called a whore, slut, skank, etc.... when I was a virgin before it happened. I think if my peers had read the book, maybe there would have been some understanding.... I know this isn't an everyday situation, but it is definitely something that needs to be brought up and talked about.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.

You know you can't really stop him right? I mean the moment he realises it's taboo he's going to borrow it from a friend and read it. Seriously...if my mother had forbidden me to read a book at 14 I would be all over that...he could just go to the public library even...


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

My question would be this - do you think it would be bad for your kid to read this book, and why? Because you think he is unaware that rape happens? Because you think it would be bad for him to know it happens? What exactly do you think would be the harm to your child from reading this book? Are you afraid that he would ask you questions you would find difficult to answer?

I just don't understand what it is you fear from this book.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

See, I think this sort of topic is going to get discussed in high school, just among teens who pass along some (or a lot) of ignorance with what they say... whereas Speak is literature that wouldd help students gain a better understanding of the ramifications of this sort of topic, as they read and as they discuss the book. I figure it's better to start discussing it in the open rather than letting a bunch of teens suss it all out on their own.

I would recomend reading any book you're thinking of banning for your kid. Speak would take you a couple hours at the most. It is an amazing, amazing book. All my students loved it, argued over who got to check it out from the classroom library next.

Freaky Grean Eyes by Joyce Carol Oates is another similar book where the protagonist fights off a rape so that's different, tho other main plot points are even darker. Just if anyone's looking for more books for young adults who liked Speak.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
You know you can't really stop him right?

For me this is what parenting older kids is all about. We can't force them. All we have is the strength of our relationship and the kids' common sense. I know adolescents who's parents control, structure and dote over every aspect of their lives. I shudder to think of the rebellion to come.


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## emelsea (Jun 21, 2005)

I happen to know Laurie (the author of Speak, Laurie Halse Anderson) and she's a lovely person. I think the book is very thoughtful and - as other's have suggested - an excellent springboard for discussion.

To the OP (I hope you do come back and read the rest of the comments), I wish you would have read it on your own, just to get a better idea, before you made your decision (I find that I can read most of my teenage stepson's required books in one evening. I just skim them quickly so I can help him if he has questions).

Also, I'm curious, if a parent chooses for their child to do the alternate project, how is that done? Do they go to the library and work alone while the book is being discussed in class?


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## AlwaysLearning32 (May 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
The teacher is 22 years old, fresh out of college. I don't think SHE'S mature enough to teach material like that.

So, how detailed is the sexual assault/rape?


Wow, "fresh out of school at 22 and not able to handle discussing rape and its aftermath"...I just totally don't see it. Then again, I've always been an old soul and wise and mature beyond my years.

FWIW, I think it is an incredibly valid subject matter that is essential to discuss, in active dialogue, with our youth. What better segway for some honest, open communication.

You could always pick up a copy and read it for yourself to see if it's something you feel you must censor. Me, I'd use it as an educational opportunity.


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## AlwaysLearning32 (May 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I just had to stop here and pull my jaw off the keyboard.

Are you naive? Do you really think that sexual assault and rape don't happen to 14 year olds?

I keep having to stop, and rewrite because what I want to say violates the U/A.

I'll say this: it is YOUR attitude, and the attitude of many people like you, which is the reason that so many young girls (and BOYS) are sexually assaulted and don't report it.

Please consider changing your tune. It is damaging...to EVERYONE...and helpful...to NO ONE.

I couldn't agree more. To make it a dirty, shameful, "don't talk about it and it won't happen" topic is a huge disservice to our youth.

Not talking about rape...in highschool?! That just boggles my mind.

I work, well volunteer, in an elementary school and last year there were several incidents of hugely inappropriate sexual behavior going on in the bathrooms...and these were THIRD GRADERS.

Times are not like they were when we were young. Pushing subject matter like this under the rug, in my opinion, is atrocious.


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## ziggy (Feb 8, 2007)

I was sort of put off by the whole "she's only 22 and can't handle it" thing too. I'm 20, a rape crisis counselor, I've worked at women's shelters in three states and five counties, I've presented to teens and preteens, and done countless fund raisers and such. People mature at different ages - If I could handle what I do now when I was 18, I see no reason why I couldn't at 22.


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## AlwaysLearning32 (May 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.

I'm a new poster, but years long lurker...I do think you need to have a little thicker skin if you want to engage in conversation about topics that are bound to stir emotions for people.

Not everyone is going to agree with your views and opinions...in fact, most won't. And this, well this is the world of the internet message boards where, if you put something out there, you have to be able to handle what comes back at you.

I don't think you should be offended or walk away. There are some very thoughtful perspectives that, should you take the emotion out of your visceral response and take a moment to cognitively process some of the opinions, you may learn a new way of looking at something that you wouldn't have thought of before.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
My oldest (boy, age 14) brought home a permission slip for English class to read the book _Speak_ by Laurie Halse Anderson. The slip said that there was mention of sexual assault and rape in the book, so if we weren't comfortable with our child reading that, they could do an alternate project.

The slip "mentions" sexual assault and rape in a book to be read by 14 yr olds?







There are better ways to approach children on the topic of sex or rape.







It doesn't have to be done through reading a book with a whole class. I'm thinking of it moreso from the standpoint of being an embarrassing topic to cover.

Not only would my child not be reading it but I'd be raising a stink at the school and I'd also be getting other parents involved.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom de terre* 
I'd love to agree with this statement, but as a high school teacher I can tell you that graphic conversations about sexual content are taking place. You can prevent your kid from possibly maturely discussing the consequences of sexual violence in a moderated setting, but you can't do much about what he is hearing in the halls.

This thread isn't about what is being talked about in the halls, it's about a book being pushed on 14 yr olds. If a parents doesn't agree then that's their choice.

I do think the parent should make sure the child is getting the information elsewhere but that's JMHO. Just because I'm against my child being forced to sit in a classroom of his peers (males and females) and listen to a book being read that has rape or sex in the context doesn't mean I wouldn't talk to him outside the classroom on my own or that I wouldn't condone the same book being read to him within an all male group through his class. I think there are more tactful ways to do it. If they wanted to discuss situations in health class regarding sex or rape then I'd probably be okay with that (maybe) as long as it's done in the right manner. However, I think the genders should be separated. That way if anyone has a question they aren't embarrassed to ask in front of the opposite sex, things like that.

I think sex is too "loosely" discussed in society today and then parents turn around and gripe about their young teens maturing too fast. That's very contradictive. Actually, if more parents would start talking to their "own" children about sex beginning at a very young age then such books wouldn't have to be read in a classroom. But I understand a lot of parents are embarrassed to do so and would rather the schools (or their peers) do it for them.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I also think your DS voice needs to heard on this book - as well as other books to come.

As stated earlier, I read a bunch of very heavy book in English - I would have _loved_ it if my mother had "just said no". I think being forced to read a book you are not ready for or really do not want to is an abuse of power.

I am not opposed to this book being read in a class per se, but it should be voluntary, and should be thoughtfully discussed - preferably by the parents as well as the school.

Kathy


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
The slip "mentions" sexual assault and rape in a book to be read by 14 yr olds?







There are better ways to approach children on the topic of sex or rape.







It doesn't have to be done through reading a book with a whole class. I'm thinking of it moreso from the standpoint of being an embarrassing topic to cover.

Not only would my child not be reading it but I'd be raising a stink at the school and I'd also be getting other parents involved.

I think you're out of touch with literature.

Julie of the Wolves *mentions* sexual assault and it's normally read by 4th graders here.

If you eliminate all literature with any mention of sexual assault and rape you eliminate TONS of classics and important literature.

-Angela


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I wonder how history and current events classes deal with this. I don't imagine they send home a permission slip to see if the students are allowed to learn about Columbus, or Boudicca, or WWII, or prominent news stories about rapes, do they?


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

If the OP is still listening.....it's probably a valid assumption that the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak. Your child will know that his classmates are reading something he isn't allowed to, and I'm betting that will pique his interest. Perhaps he will read on his own without benefit of class/peer/teacher moderated input?

I am wondering how you would explain to your son your refusal to allow him to participate in this class activity. Not smarky, just wondering? Will you explain your objections to the content of the book? If so, you may end up having a discussion at home about the content you're not comfortable with.

Would you consider reading the book first and then sort of "parallel" reading along with the class. That way you might be able to share the experience with your son, instead of potentially shutting him out.

FWIW, we were a family that sheltered our kids (younger child and older school age) from a lot that we thought was harmful. Well, you can really only go so far with that because we do live in the real world. At some point your ideal has to meet up with the reality of the world we live in. JMHO.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

When I was in Junior High, we read "The Scarlet Letter". That has some pretty "adult" themes in it. We also read "The Great Gatsby", which IIRC, included themes such as bootlegging, adultery, murder, and abortion(?). Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants" is about abortion for sure (as well as probably statutory rape).

When I was 12 or 13, I read the entire "Flowers in the Attic" series - checked it out at the public library and read them. Those have rape, incest, and murder, and I don't want to have sex with my sisters because of it.

However, you know your child, and if you feel he's not mature enough for this book, have him do the alternate activity. But if I were in your place, I would read the book BEFORE making the decision.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I hope change your mind and return. Honestly, I do believe that you are overreacting. High school is not a PG environment anymore.

Elementary school is not PG any more. In 1989, when I went to a K-8 school in south Phoenix, we had THREE pregnant girls in my grade. I wasn't in 8th grade, or even 7th grade. We had THREE pregnant 12 year olds in the 6th grade.


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 

So, how detailed is the sexual assault/rape?

I have not read the whole thread, but as an English teacher and parent myself, my biggest issue is not your choice to not let him read it, but rather the fact that you are not making a fully informed decision. If you are that concerned YOU should read the book first and then decide if it is acceptable for your child.


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tex.mom* 
I realize this is my personal experience, but I was in 9th grade the first time a friend was raped (incidentally by an older, popular guy). She did speak up and no one believed her, and she was shunned by everyone, including the parents.







I had a couple friends confide similar events to me later, but no one ever spoke up again.

I truly believe these issues are discussed in many schools at this age, outside of the classroom setting.


I was in the 9th grade when *I was date raped* The guy who did it bragged to the whole school about popping my cherry and I got labeled a slut. No one believed me, or they all thought I asked for it, because I had lied to my parents about where I was and went to his house with two other couples when I knew his parents were not home. Yes, appropriate/relevent material for 9th grade


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I don't know this particular book, but if it was handled well, I would have no problem. In fact, I think it is *important* for these things to be discussed. I don't think grade 9 is too young at all. We read To Kill a Mockingbird and that had a lot of deep issues we discussed.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
This isn't fair. No, it isn't her attitude that causes young girls and boys to not report sexual assault. Sexual assault is very complicated and reporting it is very hard. My mother didn't censor anything I read and my mother didn't care what I did at school and I didn't report sexual assault when I was in high school.

Attacking her and blaming her for terrible things isn't going to help the situation.

It is not the only reason, but it is one reason. Contributing to the air of secrecy, taboo, and shame around sexual assault is a huge problem in perpetuating more assaults and victimizing the victim again.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

why? i don't understand this at all, sorry. it's a part of life. how exactly would it be avoided for 6-7 hours per day? you do realize that some of the girls who read this book will likely have had or will later have this happen to them, right? which is a whole lot worse than talking about it







:


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
This thread isn't about what is being talked about in the halls, it's about a book being pushed on 14 yr olds. If a parents doesn't agree then that's their choice.

I do think the parent should make sure the child is getting the information elsewhere but that's JMHO. Just because I'm against my child being forced to sit in a classroom of his peers (males and females) and listen to a book being read that has rape or sex in the context doesn't mean I wouldn't talk to him outside the classroom on my own or that I wouldn't condone the same book being read to him within an all male group through his class. *I think there are more tactful ways to do it.* If they wanted to discuss situations in health class regarding sex or rape then I'd probably be okay with that (maybe) as long as it's done in the right manner. However, I think the genders should be separated. That way if anyone has a question they aren't embarrassed to ask in front of the opposite sex, things like that.

I think sex is too "loosely" discussed in society today and then parents turn around and gripe about their young teens maturing too fast. That's very contradictive. Actually, if more parents would start talking to their "own" children about sex beginning at a very young age then such books wouldn't have to be read in a classroom. But I understand a lot of parents are embarrassed to do so and would rather the schools (or their peers) do it for them.

IS there a "tactful" way to discuss rape? I have, thankfully, not been in that situation OR known anyone who has. But both of my kids - boy AND girl - have been taught from early on that NO means NO! My son would try to wrestle with his little sister, and when she said STOP, darned straight he was taught that meant STOP. Whether they were 5, 10, 15 or whatever age.

If 14 is too young to discuss rape, when is it appropriate? I'm honestly gobsmacked. OP... you son already knows about rape - I can guarantee it. What he needs now is some serious and honest discussion about it. If you're not comfortable with it happening in school, so be it. At least talk to him at home.

Me? I'm likely going to go out and buy the book for all three of us to read.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
My oldest (boy, age 14) brought home a permission slip for English class to read the book _Speak_ by Laurie Halse Anderson. The slip said that there was mention of sexual assault and rape in the book, so if we weren't comfortable with our child reading that, they could do an alternate project.

I've never heard of this book, and was shocked that it would be considered for an English project! I said no, my child would not read that book.

What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?

I have to ask, if he was a girl do you think that your response would be the same? Ignoring the issue and existence of rape is one of the privileges of being born male, and I'm glad that there are some men who are prepared to go beyond she's lying/ she asked for it.


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## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

i'm kind of suprised at the response on this thread.

i have opted my child out of a few things at school b/c either i wanted to handle that kind of thing myself or b/c i felt it was innapropriate subject matter for my child.

it does seem like this is more about the op's comfort level than her son's comfort level though.

i haven't read that book but i can see opting out if i felt my child couldn't handle it, didn't feel the teacher could handle it

it would have been nice if this could have been one of several options for each child though. i guess thats a fantasy land though.........

when i was in hs we didn't really read current fiction as a class project that was reserved for extra credit........

it's the kind of topic that really has to be handled properly. i don't know what the best way to handle the topic of rape is at 14 yrs old but i don't know that english class is the best place for it.

that said i wouldn't keep my kiddo from reading anything they wanted to read but this is not a choice her son is making, this sis something that is being assigned.

what would the alternate assignment be? maybe a different book by the same author?


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

What would you like to see your son reading?

What was his reaction to having to opt out?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.

When and where then?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.

Hmmm....


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Okay, so my curiosity was totally piqued, and since I was IN the library posting yesterday, I grabbed the book. It's a little longer than a two hour read, but just barely. I started it at 1:30 and with several interruptions (including laundry and cooking supper!), finished it just before hubby got home from work (4:30).

IMO, the rape scene is not graphic at all (it says he "hurt her" and describes non-specific pain and blood in her mouth from him holding his hand over it) - and the word rape is not even mentioned until the last quarter of the book. Someone who just picked up the book and started reading might not even figure it out until more than halfway through.

I like that the people who HELP the protaganist the most are other men (her art teacher, the lacrosse team) - it doesn't paint all males as evil.

I would absolutely give this to my 12 1/2 year old sister to read.


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## seeing_stars (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I think it'a wrong to discuss sexual asault and rape in a 9th grade classroom. That's my problem with it. I'm obviously not as free of a thinker as most here, and I believe such things shouldn't be discussed in school.









I was raped when I was in 9th grade by an older, popular classmate. When things came to light everyone was terrible to me and the effects of that have impacted my life to this day. I WISH people had talked about rape so that maybe my peers had been able to relate to me and accept me.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

I just have to chime in, even if OP isn't listening anymore.

By 14, I was already a rape victim for 3 years. And now, at the 'ripe old age' of 22, I've been a rape victim for 11 years.

In high school (which for me, wasn't all that long ago), we read The Scarlet Letter, To Kill A Mockingbird, and other books that dealt with adult subject matter. There was no giggling, no mocking the material. Even at a young age (9th grade for TKAM, 10th for TSL), we understood the severity of these subjects, and they were approached by both teacher and student with great sensitivity.

And I know I wasn't the only girl in class so painfully identifying with some of the characters in some of the books we read. Speaking as a young assault victim, it really makes you feel... less alone.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm so sorry this happened to you, seeingstars and Redifer







I was older when I was raped, but that assault took the life of my first daughter. At some point, I have to have this discussion with my children- they know I was assaulted before she died, but at some point I worry that specifics are going to come up.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyto3girls* 
I was in the 9th grade when *I was date raped* The guy who did it bragged to the whole school about popping my cherry and I got labeled a slut. No one believed me, or they all thought I asked for it, because I had lied to my parents about where I was and went to his house with two other couples when I knew his parents were not home. Yes, appropriate/relevent material for 9th grade

I'm sorry that happened to you. In 8th grade at my school, there was a girl who was supposedly such a slut because it was said that while drunk she offered to have sex with a whole line up of guys. At the time the word rape was never mentioned, it was just that she was a slut. Reading a book in English class that referred to rape would not be the first time students heard of rape, it might just be the first time they understood it was different from consensual sex.

I understand people want to pretend if they don't share real information with kids it keeps them safe - but it is the exact opposite. It keeps them ignorant and unable to properly understand and interpret their experience.

And, to the original poster, I seriously can't believe you didn't even read the book first. To single your kid out and exclude them and not even take the time to read the book. I can think of so many age appropriate books from To Kill a Mockingbird to I know why the caged bird sings, that include themes of sexual violence.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

While I can't say I would never censor reading material (I have with my youngers on occasion), I do think that by 14, most kids are ready to choose their own reading material and handle what they read.

That said, last year, when my oldest was 12 and newly arrived from Ethiopia, I did opt out of a book her class was reading in 6th grade. Knowing my daughter and her history and her then-current emotional state, I didn't think that reading that book about that subject matter at school would serve her well at that time.

dm


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## onlygirls (Mar 16, 2008)

Quote:

Due to its controversial subject matter, Speak has often been challenged. In the Platinum Edition of Speak, released 2006, Anderson spoke out against censorship. At the end of the novel, after an interview regarding the content of the book, Anderson wrote: "But censoring books that deal with difficult, adolescent issues does not protect anybody. Quite the opposite. It leaves kids in the darkness and makes them vulnerable. Censorship is the child of fear and the father of ignorance. Our children cannot afford to have the truth of the world withheld from them."
I would absolutely let my children read this book and I would read the book at the same time so that it could be discussed in the home.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?

Yes. I think you're overreacting. I think a classroom--where a teacher can guide discussion, where there's a "story" to focus on, is a far better place to discuss this issue that in the hallways, where kids might be dealing with innuendo and rumors about real people and where there is no adult mediating. The latter is already certainly happening. So balancing it with the former, especially with a sensitive and well-written book as a touchstone, seems like it would only be beneficial.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llamalluv* 

When I was 12 or 13, I read the entire "Flowers in the Attic" series - checked it out at the public library and read them. Those have rape, incest, and murder, and I don't want to have sex with my sisters because of it.

I read those when I was 9! I assure you I didn't turn into a deviant.







I also remember needing my mom to sign a sheet for me before my teacher would let me check out the Catcher in the Rye from the library when I was 10.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
While I can't say I would never censor reading material (I have with my youngers on occasion), I do think that by 14, most kids are ready to choose their own reading material and handle what they read.

I agree. I think 14 is certainly old enough to make one's own choices about reading material. If I were the OP, I would ask my son about it before censoring. And if I was 14, and my mom tried to dictate what I could or couldn't read, I would be extremely angry (and go read the book on my own, naturally).


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I just remembered our class read "To Kill a Mockingbird" in the 8th grade.

Mommy68, if you were making a stink at my high school over such a relevant and IMPORTANT topic, I would make a larger stink, mostly to get you out of my kid's education.


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## onlygirls (Mar 16, 2008)

Quote:

Mommy68, if you were making a stink at my high school over such a relevant and IMPORTANT topic, I would make a larger stink, mostly to get you out of my kid's education.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

As a teacher I'm very ok with parents getting involved enough in their child's education to disapprove of a book. If a parent wanted to protest a book being taught they would have to go through the school board because which books are taught are decided for the whole district waaaaaay above my head.

It is worth considering how we (me, generic you) are trying to enforce our cultural values on the people around us. I am generically pro-sex education and very liberal/tolerant about homosexuality and queer rights and I don't mind rough behavior and even rougher language. BUT I don't think that I have the right to tell other people they have to agree with me. The first week of school every year I drive all of the kids (mostly Juniors, but I also teach Sophomores) nuts because they have to have extensive conversations about what "being respectful" means. I don't participate, they have to debate it out amongst themselves. It is usually pretty astounding for the kids because they realize how differently they all perceive "being respectful."

In my mind being respectful includes letting parents say, "I don't want my kid talking about 'x' subject in class" and then respecting the parent and _not shaming_ the kid. In the very rare cases when I have had this happen I have talked to the parent about what sort of alternative project would be most appropriate. Often the parent agrees to read a similar sort of topic/book with their kid at home and then the kid and I discuss it one on one.

Parents shouldn't have to consent to just anything the school wants their kid to learn. That is abdicating responsibility as a parent.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Parents shouldn't have to consent to just anything the school wants their kid to learn. That is abdicating responsibility as a parent.









:

Your whole post was very well stated, RKOM!

dm

Ps. We also opted out of dd doing dissection last year, because dh and I feel that raising and killing animals for children to dissect in science is wrong. The school was happy to honor our request and find an alternative for our daughter.


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## PregnantMomma20 (Mar 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 







:

Your whole post was very well stated, RKOM!

dm

Ps. We also opted out of dd doing dissection last year, because dh and I feel that raising and killing animals for children to dissect in science is wrong. The school was happy to honor our request and find an alternative for our daughter.


I begged my parents to opt me out of dissection.... and they were hesitant to do that but finally allowed me to, I don't see any similarities between dissecting animals and talking about an important teen issue such as rape. Dissection is nothing that will come back up in life, (when was the last time you saw a dead animal laying somewhere and decided to label it's parts?) it wont help my child be a less ignorant person, it wont educate my child about something they WILL encounter in life,(either personally or through a partner or friend), and it's not educating them to be a good citizen once they are an adult.

I could never imagine opting out of something that could potentially harm my child, especially if I don't even make an educated decision about the issue or just throw my arms up when I realize others do not have a problem with it. Ignorance is not bliss.

(I was a rape victim, and I still struggle with flashbacks and issues during sex sometimes even though it's been 6 years) what if my fiance had been naive towards rape? Would we be together? Probably not! There is a statistic I found that says 1 in 3 girls will be sexually assaulted before the age of 18. That's pretty scary.... and it's real. I know you might be thinking, "Oh my child's a boy, so I don't have to worry about this issue!" Actually, you do. Women aren't the only ones who get raped ( I know of 2 guys in my high school who got raped... it happens, just a lot less often) And also, what about your son's future wife? Future daughters? female friends? Classmates? Coworkers? And honestly, it could teach him the importance of not being the instigator to get what he wants and potentially rape someone.

*****( No... I am not saying just because he's opted out of the reading of the book he will go rape someone, I am saying that by not being educated as to what rape is,the different "kinds of rape", or how it effects the victim involved, he could easily make a bad decision. I highly doubt guys who date rape girls are truly thinking they are raping their victims, I'm all most certain they are just thinking they are giving her a little "fun" pressure, or that they are the only thinking about themselves and the fact that they have a hard on and cant really think rationally (lets be real now, we all have been there or had a friend there at one point) *****

If as a country, we came together and awknowledged that rape is a serious problem in America, and start educating people and taking action against it, I know the statistics will go down. Why not educate your children about such an important issue that one day will leave them voting on laws and issues that will effect how rape is punished, handled, or what the definition of rape is? Covering your child's eyes and protecting them only gets them so far in life.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, I was referring to this:

Quote:

Parents shouldn't have to consent to just anything the school wants their kid to learn. That is abdicating responsibility as a parent.
I wasn't equating dissection to rape. I was agreeing that

Quote:

Parents shouldn't have to consent to just anything the school wants their kid to learn.
dm


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Maybe not, but a parent has a moral responsibility to the rest of society to impart some basic moral teachings- don't steal, etc. In our house, the use and abuse of personal power is a big deal, and we do talk about it a lot. It sounds like the OP is trying to defer this conversation because it's developmentally inappropriate- for some kids round by me, 14 is far too late because they've been sexually active for some time. That's the only justification for schools heavy-handed involvement-that some parents aren't giving the kind of loving guidance necessary.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Maybe not, but a parent has a moral responsibility to the rest of society to impart some basic moral teachings- don't steal, etc. In our house, the use and abuse of personal power is a big deal, and we do talk about it a lot. It sounds like the OP is trying to defer this conversation because it's developmentally inappropriate- for some kids round by me, 14 is far too late because they've been sexually active for some time. That's the only justification for schools heavy-handed involvement-that some parents aren't giving the kind of loving guidance necessary.

Most of the parents who are uninvolved and don't teach their kids stuff at home are not going to go through the trouble of protesting a book. The parents who protest stuff at school tend to have reasons for their protests and they talk to their kids. Do I always agree with their motives and ways of believing? Hell no, but I don't get to tell people what to believe.

And honestly having taught in public schools has convinced me that my kids won't be attending public school because I don't want people who are so completely apathetic and uncaring in charge of the education of my children. I worked my butt off; many of my coworkers barely showed up for the required hours and complained about any extra work. There were a few teachers in my department where I wouldn't want to have my kids sit through their version of talking about rape or sexual assault.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
There were a few teachers in my department where I wouldn't want to have my kids sit through their version of talking about rape or sexual assault.









Yes.

My daughter was being bullied in the classroom of a clueless first-year teacher who was 22 years old.

Her advice to my daughter?

"Sit in the back of the class so that the bullies don't see you."

Um ... yeah. I'd definitely want that teacher educating my kid about sensitive matters or facilitating group discussions about rape and sexual assault.









And I'm not saying that I'd opt out of the book that the OP mentioned. But just because parents have a "moral responsibility" or whatever to impart "basic moral teachings" doesn't mean that parents have to let anyone who wants to discuss these things with their kids.

Yeah, I'd probably have said something had that clueless first-year teacher been in charge of the sex-ed class rather than the older, veteran teacher I knew and trusted.

Besides, I don't think the OP said she didn't/wouldn't/hadn't discussed these things with her child. She simply said they shouldn't be talked about in a classroom. I happen to disagree in general, but she did mention she doesn't feel that particular teacher is the right person to do it.

dm


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## kennedy444 (Aug 2, 2002)

I am coming late to this thread but had to say that I would read about the book before answering but would probably let her read it. Afterall, wasn't "To Kill A Mockingbird" about rape too? And that is a "classic."


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## MrsCorell (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't have time to read through the whole thread~kids need to be read bedtime stories. However, I have read the book. It does touch on the idea of rape, but was not graphic. It is about a girl who was raped and focuses more on her emotional aftermath than it does the actual assault. The premise of the book is how an emotionally traumatizing event can alter a person's perception of reality, the things that they enjoy/their reactions to such things, and how hard it can be to come to terms with such things.

If you have the time, ask the school if you can borrow a copy to read for yourself. I recommended it to my junior high students because it really is a great book.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

First of all you did not ask for support, you ask for opinions, and you were given many respectful opinions. I see no reason to become angry and take off in a huff because you were expecting support only when you asked for something different.

Second I am also really confused by why you feel this is inappropriate. I don't want to accuse you of anything but I have to ask: Is it because you feel the subject is shameful? Would it be okay to discuss other difficult struggles? Say a young woman who's mother committed suicide?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
I'm still not allowing my son to read it. That's that. I'm not posting or reading anymore posts to this thread. I was looking for support, but instead got attacked and put down.

I have changed my views about MDC as well. Maybe it isn't the place for me.

i'm with threebeans. you didn't ask for support you asked for our opinion on whether you were overreacting. you were.


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I don't know that book, but I will share this.

My hs'd teen and I just read To Kill a Mockingbird together , and rape is more than mentioned. It's a central theme. (My teen hser is 15). I think TKAM is a really important piece of American lit. As an unschooler, I was thrilled she indulged me my suggestion. . I was afraid she would say "No, thanks" , but she did not. I was grateful, as I think it's too important a piece of lit to pass by.

I don't think a book with a rape theme, in and of itself, is a reason to not read it. In fact, it may give voice to those without voice.

My 10 yo read it with me for her book club, middle schoolers.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I was just talking about this thread with my kids yesterday after something kind of related came up on TV and Dd informed me that she read "Speak" last year. She said it was a really good book and she could see how it might be useful in having discussions about sexual assault, courage in a difficult time, etc.

Also there's a movie about it too I guess. Anyway, just thought I would share.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Haven't read it- but many, many of the required books have adult themes such as that, and they're all great books. He's 14, not 4- a mention of rape won't hurt him, y'know?


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## sammypants (Sep 11, 2007)

Haven't read the whole thread but wanted to say that I taught it this year and got an overwhelmingly positive response from the class including meaningful, emotionally explorative culminating projects. Some students who had not participated all year came out of their shells to contribute to the discussions this book generated. There are many resources out there dedicated to teaching this novel with a socially proactive spin, seeking to empower those disenfranchised by brutal sexual experiences.


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## JSerene (Nov 4, 2004)

This is a great thread. I had never heard of the author and now I've not only read Speak as a result of this thread, I've read 2 of her other books and plan to read more. Speak was a great book. I'm so glad I saw this thread and was hipped to this book.


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## Labbemama (May 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
I wish more young teens, girls AND particularly boys, would read books that give them a glimpse into the aftermath of a rape.

I think it's great that this topic is being addressed in school if it's in terms of talking about it and recovering from it. as 1 in 4 girls will be sexually assaulted and one in 5 boys. (Approximately, figures could be higher because it often goes unreported) It's not just a women's issue. 1. It happens to boys and men too, and 2. If we don't talk about it how can we prevent it and get support for the healing process to begin?

There's a great program called ManUP and another one called Men can prevent rape which encourages boys and men to have education and join in the fight against sexual violence. I do advocate having some talks with just boys and just girls and then the group together. I think the kids are more comfortable sharing their attitudes and concerns in same sex groups and then having a conversation about specifically what they can do in their school to improve things for all.

There are also programs for talking to teens about healthy relationships. I know of one such program called Teen Exchange and they talk about a lot of things including date rape, how far are you willing to go, self-esteem and personal values.

I'm glad you brought it up, we're looking for summer reading material.


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

Our local paper had summer reading recs from librarians, and _Speak_ was mentioned for highschoolers.


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## potatocraft (Apr 4, 2008)

The Color Purple, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Crucible, The Scarlet Letter....All of these books at least mention sex, and all of them were required reading in highschool when I went.
Most of them I had already read, but that is another story. I think discussing these topics helped boys understand girls positions on this stuff and girls understand boys.

I would at least read the book at home first then decide if my child would be reading the book in class or not. It is like when I was in high school and took a humanities class. They had many religious groups come to school and talk about the basis of their religion. No one had a problem with any presentation until it came to the Jehovah's witnesses...Then all of the christian families in the are pulled their children from the class for the day. And this was a 12th grade class. No one was trying to convert anyone, they just didn't want them in the room with them. And no one had a problem with the Hasidic(sp?) Jews, the muslims, the mormons, or anyone else that came to visit.

When we got out of class we were grilled by the kids who didn't get to see the presentation. Did they try to convert us? did they do this, that or the other thing? Because the subject was made taboo by their parents, their minds just ran with it. In truth the presentation was much like everyone elses. a little history about the organization, a brief overview of the beliefs and q&a. That is it. They had to follow the same rules as everyone else that spoke, (no literature, no preaching, etc...) But because these kids didn't sit in the classroom for discussions afterward, they didn't get the understanding about the subject matter that everyone in the class did.
Hope this makes sense, I need to go to bed.
Shawna


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I have only just stumbled onto this thread, and it blew my mind. Not because of the book, nor the age of the child in question, but.......

HOW can a work be dismissed simply on hearsay??? Without reading the book, without knowing the context of the questionable content, HOW can the experience be blindly ripped away from another?

As parents, it is our job to be the top tier when it comes to our children. When they are small, we do research into the toys, safety seats, shows..everything we expose them to. But as they grow, there's no reason to forget that it is still our job to check out anything that makes us uneasy.

What a shame it is to let down our children in this manner. To say 'no' without knowing why.


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## TefferTWH (May 13, 2008)

If you haven't read ths book, then it's difficult to understand how well it's written and how it handles the topic. I taught it to 14 year olds with permission slips to CYA, and I can tell you that my girls loved it and it was checked out of the library by others based on the original readers' recommendations. It's a good book.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Posting late to this thread - but after reading it earlier I checked the novel out from the library and read it. It was a very good read and I would definitely allow/encourage my teenaged children to read it. It was an interesting read for me too. I started late at night, read till late, then woke up early wanting to finish the novel.

The rape scene itself is described without being graphic - I think I don't think younger children would even realize what was being described. It is the emotional aftermath that is the focus of the story - the event itself takes up less than a single page.


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## kijip (Jun 29, 2005)

I am not sure it is possible to truly study high school literature without some exposure to violence or sexual assault. Further, I don't think such lit condones it, it condemns it and empowers kids to work against the sadly large epidemic of sexual violence in the USA. I was raped at age 11. Many of the books I read helped me heal from it and speak out against it- in essence, helping me claim my voice back. The Color Purple and To Kill a Mockingbird for example.

Also, I would never withhold permission for my child to read something I myself had not read. Honestly I can't see not giving permission for just about any book. BUT if I was on the fence about something, I would read it myself before making up my mind.


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## jul511riv (Mar 16, 2006)

wow wow wow! Mama, it miht be time to think about homeschooling. If you dont like your kids teacher...or the material that WILL be discussed in and OUT of class, its time to get your baby outta there and in an environment that makes you feel good and safe.


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## asunlitrose (Apr 19, 2008)

Hello! Another English teacher and sexual assault survivor here who is also 22 and definitely mature enough to teach about adult themes.









I think the book is so incredibly important to teach to high schoolers. Sexual assault is real at that age -- I was SA'd in 10th grade -- and I only wish we would have had discussions about dealing with SA and believing people who said that they were raped. That's a huge deal in the book -- the main character's friends don't believe her and she's completely isolated. Teenagers would rather believe that they don't know anybody who could possibly rape someone, than believe the victim.

My teaching philosophy is that students learn best from studying real world issues, and how to solve them, so they become better global citizens. This includes things like women's rights, racism, homelessness, poverty, bullying, gang violence, and yes, sexual assault. Because we do need to discuss these things. I don't feel like I'm teaching if I pick books that are all about puppies, or vapid brainless fiction. Books and literature MEAN something. And it's how you get students to care.

Something that also needs to be said is that many teens who read _Speak_, boys especially, ask why the main character is so upset about being raped, and why she doesn't just "get over it." They don't understand the gravity of the act. That is scary to me and proves to me the importance of addressing such a subject. Men and women need to understand how damaging rape is, and how not to victim blame.

To me, this is essential in stopping rape and victim blaming.


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

See, this is why I find it ridiculous to send home a parent permission slip for a book. You have never read the book, yet you decided your child should not read it. I'm sure that the intention was to excuse kids who have experienced sexual assault and might be retraumatized by reading the book. Instead, parents who freak out at the word "sex" pull their kids from an opportunity to take the perspective of a silent victim. Brilliant.

If I was your kid, wild horses would not keep me from that book now that you "forbid" it.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

As another woman who was date raped at age 14 and who had SEVERAL friends go through the same thing (even younger)... I'd totally allow it and even encourage the reading of the book.

If I'm not sure of a book for my kids.... I read it myself first.


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## DiannaK (Jul 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofmany* 
My oldest (boy, age 14) brought home a permission slip for English class to read the book _Speak_ by Laurie Halse Anderson. The slip said that there was mention of sexual assault and rape in the book, so if we weren't comfortable with our child reading that, they could do an alternate project.

I've never heard of this book, and was shocked that it would be considered for an English project! I said no, my child would not read that book.

What do you think? Am I over-reacting as usual? Has anyone here read that book?


I wouldn't call it over reacting, I'd call it being a concerned parent, and normal. (at least for me)

Looking at the synopsis of the book listed here, I think I'd let my 13 yo read it, as well as read it myself. Sounds like it brings up some issues that could open up important discussions at home.


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