# The initial talk didn't go well vent/cry



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm trying to not panic. But I feel sick to my stomach and am crying. And really dislike DH right now.

I showed him the graphic video of the black baby being cut. I cried so hard upon watching that for the first time.
He made me move away from him bc he said i was hovering. Whatever.
Then after said it didn't bother him aas much as it bothered me and he HAS a penis. I'm totally shocked.

Then he started doing research on "unbiased"sites.
Then when I thought he was still reading, he was infact researching toy airplanes for our 8 yo nephew.







:
Ya-about 20 mins worth of reading.

I started asking questions.
His reasons are-It's cleaner. (he actually said he would dribble if not circ'd!!)
Wants him to look the same-no "upset"
Doesn't want him to be teased at school
Then after reading-fewer UTI's (2% vs 7 % for uncirc'd boys)
Less penile cancer
HIV

I said-he won't look like you-you're 36-he will be a child-you'll never look the same.
-He needs to wear a condom anyway and that HIV study was one study that used flawed research and has since been refuted by newer studies.

It's NOT cleaner b/c the penis is fused. And when it retracts later, he will need to wash it anyay-like any other part of his body. You still need to wash your pits and butt. It's just another body part.

I said that about 10 % of canadian kids are circ'd.He found a stat that said about 30 %.

Then he started being an ass. Making fun of me and calling me a tree hugger and that he was going to put parental controls on the computer so I can't get to sites like this one. Basically slammed my pov.

Then started joking. When I said that his dad wouldn't have been -and how traumatised could he have been if he didn't even KNOW if his dad was-he said he was traumatised for his dad that he wasn't.
I swore at him and started crying and got mad that he couldn't be serious about anything-he always needed to joke and that I found nothing about this funny.

I explained that I didn't think it was our place to make this decision for him. It was HIS penis and he should make that decision, bc there would be no going back if he didn't want it done.

He said it was more painfull to have it done as an adult, even though I have read the opposite here.

I'm pissed that he fell asleep in under 3 mins and I'm sitting downstairs so upset and can't sleep.
I'm so worried.

I see my Dr. for an allergy shot in the morning and will talk to him about this with him as he will be the baby's dr. I'm almost positive he will be against it.
And I told Dh he should talk to him-which he said he would-and he really likes him (he's the dr. for all of us)

What else can I do? I am scared and feel sick and am feeling hostile. He wouldn't even let me show him those hatchet pics from the horror story thread from this morning. I guess that will be for tomorrow night?

HELP!! I just don't know what else to do. In canada, can a baby be cut without the conscent of both parents?

ETA--OH,and he said well, it will be healed in a week anyway, so what's the big deal??
HOLY F***!

And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!

ETA 2-- I just checked the computer history. Ya!! His "unbiased" research was googling "arguments for circumcision" How friggin unbiased can that be?
And he looked up the provincial health info which said it wasn't covered.
I also saw where he got his stats. I'll print off and give him the info that glongley provided.








:


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

How about just put your foot down? Say, this baby is not being circumcised and that's the end of the discussion. I will not consent, and if you do it without my consent the marriage will be over. I am growing this baby, I am his mother and I will protect him with every fiber of my being. End of story. No more discussion.

You are giving him way too much power in this situation. Take your wind out of his sails. It's not his body, it's not his decision, so he may not decide to cut your son.


----------



## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Canadian stats:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

Gillian


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!
Any man who threatened that wouldnt see his child. Seriously, what kind of person would do soemthing like that.

It sounds to me like he is having a really hard time dealing with what was done to him.









The sad thing is that if he were to take the baby he could get it done with his concent only







I hope you get this worked out fast.


----------



## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Looks like you're in Canada, MapleLeafMama, so I'm waving to you from
Vancouver BC. Here's a link to a 2004 Medical Post item about how the
B.C. College of Physicians and Surgeons beefed up their anti circ position
after a 6 week old baby boy bled to death after being circumcised at a
Penticton, BC hospital. His name was Ryleigh McWillis if your husband can
bear to do some research on that terrible occurence.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/...on_06JUL04.htm

We also had a case last year in Winnipeg where their was a mixup of baby boys and a boy was cut without his parents' permission. The dr tried to do a
coverup and obtained consent from the parents through manipulation after the fact. Luckily, in Canada, even the nurses are becoming whistle blowers on this kind of nonsense and the truth came out. Manitoba was the last prov in Canada to give up prov health care funding for genital mutilation.

Your husband will see the light eventually and then he'll become a bigger intactivist than you are. It happens all the time but sometimes it just takes a little longer for the penny to drop.

Keep loving him and educating him. . . your son will thank you.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I've come to beleive that pregnancy brings out the worst in DHs.

I find with the _wise a$$_ type of personality direct confonrtation becomes a game and they keep argueing not b/c they believe they are right but b/c they like to see you get







. Basically frusterating you is fun.

Take the wind out of his sails and make your points when he can't argue back at you. One person here left anti-circ literature in the bathroom and took away all other reading materials so her DH had to look at it. Leave web browsers open to pages with possible complications. Bring the subject up when you are with people who will support you so that you out number him.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Maple Leaf Mama -







to you. That is so hard.









Here is an article you need to read - this is just for you, not for your husband. It will explain what is happening with him:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Lots and lots of men shut down and won't listen about circumcision. It can't be easy to hear that you lost sexual sensation as a baby, you know?

Perhaps this article will help you understand a bit where your dh is coming from. You know him best - after you read it, perhaps you'll have a better idea of how to approach this with him.

I do know that there was a mama here recently who protected her son, even though her dh never came around to agreeing with her that leaving him intact was better. Her dh did eventually get over it.

But as you said - bottom line, not his penis, not his decision. You can always tell him that if your son wants to be circumcised himself as an adult, he can be.

It is much easier on an adult - he can discuss with his doctor exactly what kind of circ he wants, he'll get proper pain relief, he won't be sitting with an open wound in urine and feces while it heals, the foreskin will already be detached from the glans, so it won't have to be forcibly scraped away, etc.

Hang in there - and know that we're here to support you in standing up for your son's right to his whole body.


----------



## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

Just tell him it's NOT getting done.

Quote:

And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!
He actually said that







that is just wrong.
I'm with the pp that said

Quote:

Any man who threatened that wouldnt see his child. Seriously, what kind of person would do soemthing like that.


----------



## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

I think it is a great idea to work closely with your doctor and see what kind of influence that can have on him. At least he (hopefully) won't be sarcastic and joking with the dr. Tell your dr how much this is upsetting you and that you need someone on your (and your baby's) side.

Good luck and big hugs to you.


----------



## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm sorry, but that was not a discussion. Making fun of you, calling you names are not very good pro-circ arguments. I don't see why you have to plead, cry and be afraid for your baby. If he can't come to terms with his son not being circ, it's HIS problem, not yours.


----------



## Mewsin (Aug 30, 2004)

hugs mama

The only thing I can think of, out and out tell your dh he didn't do research. So his opinion doesn't mean squat until he does (yeah, I hate being made fun of)

And talk to everyone before hand. Talk to your dr, say no circ, talk to admitting, say no circ, talk to nurses, say no circ, co-sleep in the hospital so no one can take him while you're sleeping, say no circ everytime you can.

good luck sweetie. protect that baby.


----------



## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mewsin* 
The only thing I can think of, out and out tell your dh he didn't do research. So his opinion doesn't mean squat until he does
And talk to everyone before hand. Talk to your dr, say no circ, talk to admitting, say no circ, talk to nurses, say no circ, co-sleep in the hospital so no one can take him while you're sleeping, say no circ everytime you can.

Yes to both points. I make pretty much all the parenting decisions in this house because I research things and get new ideas or affirm ideas I already have. If my husband argues, I tell him to look stuff up and we can discuss what he finds but he usually always drops the subject and we go ahead with what I plan. I think it's pretty silly to rely on someone's opinion when they don't even know what their opinion means.

Mark all the clothes you bring to the hospital with "do not circumcise" on them. Bring a permanent marker and write it on all the disposable diapers in the room. In the bassinette - if they must take him for any reason at all - make sure it's written in a couple places. Better yet, insist on accompanying him everywhere they say he needs to go.

And please tell you husband for me that 10% circed or 30% circed, your son will still be the oddball. 30% is still not the majority!


----------



## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Poor Dh. Poor you







.

Give him some space and time to absorb all of this. Think how emotional you feel about it and know that even if he doesn't show it the same way that he's feeling just as emotional as you are, except the issue isn't just about a DS, it's about _him_. His brain is whirling right now. I really do feel for him, he's grasping at straws. I assume he doesn't normally make fun of you and minimize your thoughts and feelings etc (?). I assume that's atypical behavior for him







? It's so personal for him and I assume he felt backed into a corner (because he probably knows deep down that you're right about this because you're right about so many things due to research etc) and he dealt with it the only way he knew how without caving outright.

When he said you were hovering....I think that's actually a good thing because it means he's really thinking this over and giving it some intense thought and he needed some space to do that. He was probably afraid of how he'd react to the video or the feelings it might bring up. I mean, this was _done to him_, too. He probably feels that you expect him to go from thinking RIC is great (his penis is great) to thinking it's terrible (his penis is terrible and you don't like it and maybe it even makes him feel like he doesn't like his penis and so what does that say about him as a man?) in one conversation and that's just asking a lot of him.

When I approached my DH I took it sllllllloooooooowly. Gave lots of time for things to sink in. ITA with reading vunerability of men if you haven't yet. It will help you a lot. Give you DH time to think about things....weeks or months if you have it. If not, put your foot down and hope that he comes around.

Your poor DH. It makes me cry to think of what was done to our men.


----------



## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

Your husband sounds like a real prize. You really need to put your foot down and say "There is no way that our baby will be circumcised. NEVER!" Your children should come first even if you have to leave your husband. Your husband wants to cause harm to your son and that is not ok.
Honestly I wouldnt even be with him in the first place but if my husband was saying the things yours is...I would be out that door in seconds. No way is that behavior acceptable.


----------



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

Well, I just got back from talking to our Dr.
He said he is not in favor of it bc he sees no medical need for it. In fact, all the reasons out there to do it are WEAK at best!! He doesn't do it either. (He's pretty crunchy/pro baby IMO)
I made it clear that I was vehemetly opposed to it and DH was holding onto his beliefs for doing it based on poor reasons like HIV and looking like Daddy.
He agreed with me on all accounts.
He said thatwhen DH goes in to discuss this next week, he will tell him what he told me-that it is not recommended b/c there is no medical reason for it.

I read the article posted by Momiska. I gfelt pretty bad after reading it b/c I really didn't think about this from his side. After all, this happened to him so long ago, I didn't think it would be a sore subject.
I went on the attack a bit last night after his a-hole comments and his lack of reaction to the grusome video. Now I'm thinking that may have been him throwing up walls. I watched him over my paper and he was furrowing his brow and squinting a bit-how could you NOT??

I'll take a step back a bit and let him think about this for a while.

I din't get to sleep until some time after 4 this morning. I couldn't shut my brain off.

This morning was tense. He asked if I was angry. I said I was tired and angry. He asked if I would stop being angry any time soon, or would he have to wait until after the baby was born?
Ya, it was a bit tense.

No--he does not usually act like he did last night. I've known him for most of my life and he is a gentle, loving man. A real softie. Even his Dad says so.
This is why I think this is like a punch in the gut for him. Something I really hadn't considered.

I will print off the above links--THANK YOU!!
And hand them to him over the weekend.
While I was very upset last night, I have some confidence that our DR. will bring this home for me.

The knot/nausea is lightening a bit. If all else fails, I'll sharpie the baby's tummy!!


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I hope he comes around and quickly. I would be so hurt and angry that he threatened you and the baby like that. I seriously hope he has an apology for you. He is defending his own circed status right now. I hope can see past his own ego and insecurities to take an honest look at what circ is and that it shouldn't be done.
But I would tell he him that it's not happening and he can either research (real research) or not but you've done your research and you will protect your son.


----------



## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

here's my opinion, take it as you will:

I have to say that this gives you a pretty good idea of how he's going to treat you in a marriage. If I were you I'd be considering wether or not this was the person I want to raise children with and be tied to for the rest of my life.

If he'll belittle you over this and threaten to go against your wishes what else is he willing to do and how is he going to respect your opinion in the many other important decisions in life and marriage to come?

I agree with a PP who said that children don't bring a couple together, they create more stress. Children are a blessing but parenting is hard and can put a lot of extra stress on a couple.

Just to clarify, I'm a lot more bothered by his treatment of you than his pro-circ response. As much as I hate circ his treatment of you is more of a red flag in terms of his suitability to be a husband.

Laura


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska* 
Maple Leaf Mama -







to you. That is so hard.









Here is an article you need to read - this is just for you, not for your husband. It will explain what is happening with him:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html
.









:

I agree--YOU need to read this article (DON'T show it to your dh.)

And then, as gently and lovingly as you can, tell your dh that circ WILL NOT BE HAPPENING to your son! Period.


----------



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Hang in there, Maple Leaf Mama!

Maybe something like this would work with your DH:

"Remember when Hailey was born? Remember the feeling of joy and relief when we learned that she was healthy, normal, and perfect? Imagine how we would have felt if there had been something wrong with her - if she had needed an operation before she even went home from the hospital! It would have been devastating.

I want to feel the same way about our newborn son. If we are blessed with a baby who is healthy, normal, and perfect, there's no way I'm signing him up for an operation he does NOT need."


----------



## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

If you've known him most of your life and he's never acted like this then the real conversation you two need to have first, before discussing your baby, is to talk about how come he felt the need to act that way?

I'd make sure I knew where he was coming from and why he felt he could treat methat way. Then I'd make sure he knew how I felt being treated that way. After all that "get it out in the open" talk it would be agreed that it won't happen again. We figure out a way for him to communicate and be respectful the next time he felt that way instead of being tactless and abusive.

Obviously, if he's never given an inkling (sp?) of acting like that before then he must really be bothered by it. Time to help him learn how to talk to you about things when he dealing with such strong feelings. Having a little one just adds stress when parents don't agree - get it fixed now before the baby comes.

Best wishes!


----------



## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

(((Hugs))) What a difficult situation...I'm sorry you're going through this.

I agree with what others have said, belittling you, calling you names, and literally threatening to go behind your back and do something that is clearly so upsetting to you you're already in tears is not a discussion. I would go so far as to call it emotionally abusive, and I would confront him with it.

I might even be tempted to say something like...

"It's not okay to talk to me like this. I deserve respect. Our son will be born perfect, no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.

The foreskin comes standard; a whole penis is the default.

Unless you can convince me in a calm & compelling manner that circumcision is necessary, it's not getting done, period.

Threatening to go behind my back and perpetuating something I consider to be abuse on our baby is unacceptable. Over. My. Dead. Body.

If you *ever* hurt one of our children like that we'll leave you so fast your head will spin."

Good luck,

Jen


----------



## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

If he does not change his tune, I don't think I would use the "if you do this, our marriage is over" line. He may just decide that that's the price he's willing to pay and call your bluff. I don't know what the legal situation there would be, but you might consider getting some kind of injunction to stop him if he does not turn around.


----------



## Naless (Apr 9, 2007)

Maple Leaf Mama I understand how you feel I was there just 3 months ago.
I have never been a fan of circumcision but always thought I would leave the decision up to my son's father. My first two babies were girls so it was not an issue.

With my son born in March I didn't want to have the circ but his dad wanted him to have it so I relented. My doctor said that babies have to be 28 days old before he will perform the surgery so it was not done in the hospital. I am so glad for that now.

After making the appointment I looked up a video on the internet and actually saw how a circumcision was performed. I was horrified. I had to watch the video 4 times to see it all the way thru. My son was crying in response to the baby on the video crying and his dad came in the room to see what was going on. When I told him I had just watched that (I have no word that fits how I felt at that moment) horrific crime and that it would not be done to my child he responded with "you should not have watched it and he will be circumcised" He also made jokes and said that he would take him without me. At the time that set off my mama bear reactions but in hindsight I can now see that he was not serious and was trying to lighten the mood.

The argument went on for days with me hysterical and badgering him about it and him fighting back and then ignoring me. Whe then came to the agreement that he would watch the video and then we would discuss if DS would be circumcised. For 4 days he "forgot" or "didn't have time to watch" the video.

After talking to a girlfriend about it she gave me the best advice "Leave him alone!!!!" I wanted him to get where I was right now instead of giving him space to think for himself. After 3 days of not mentioning the subject at all I asked him if he had thought about it and he said that he still wanted him circumcised but since I felt so strongly about it he would let me decide.

I'm not saying that this is the exact situation with your DH but just try standing back and giving space for a moment. Just think of what you look like from his perspective, your hovering, checking to see what websites he looked at, and if you are anything like I was, a raving lunatic. He may be reacting to your behavior and feeling attacked and not able to deal with the issue itself.

Also, I would think that a doctor would not perform the procedure if the parents are in disagreement seeing as you can't undo it.

I hope it all works out well with your relationship and son intact.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Hi again - it sounds like you're getting a handle on how best to approach your dh with this. The Vulnerability article is such a good one for helping us to understand what is going on for circed men. It makes me so sad when I think what was done to the men of our generation.









I will say this - I've been ranting about the evils of circ on and off for the past 3.5 years to my mom (ever since my ds was born!). Both of my brothers are circed (although my dad is intact), so she would never say anything when I went off about it (that is her way of dealing with my rants when she doesn't agree with me!).

But my brother recently had a son and left him intact (yeah!). And my mom was very pleased, and will now make the odd anti-circ comment.

It just took her a long time to process...I imagine there was some grieving to be done over what she had allowed to happen to her sons, you know?

If this was out of character for your dh, I'm sure he will eventually come around (although I agree with the other posters that it would be good to let him know how his comments made you feel, and that they weren't appropriate).

Hugs to you both.


----------



## AdoptChina (Dec 7, 2003)

I have 3 circ'd boys....with the last baby i put my foot down and said no more. DH fought with me but in the end I won--DS4 is intact. Im still very upset that the other boys were circ'd, especially DS3 . My DH even watched DS2s circ and still wanted to do it to DS3 & 4.

Just stay strong and dont let your DH bully you into something you will regret


----------



## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Clarinet* 
Mark all the clothes you bring to the hospital with "do not circumcise" on them. Bring a permanent marker and write it on all the disposable diapers in the room. In the bassinette - if they must take him for any reason at all - make sure it's written in a couple places. Better yet, insist on accompanying him everywhere they say he needs to go.

Put it in a *birth plan*, copy it and give it to your doctor and every person you come across in the hospital, whether they want to see it or not. Bring a red marker to write "do not circumcise" on the consent form and any other paperwork. I also like the idea of writing it on the baby's clothes and diapers, you can also buy a newborn T-shirt from NoCirc that has the words and symbol big and clear.

Stay strong mama!!! He sounds a lot like my sister's husband, but he eventually, gave in to keeping baby intact.


----------



## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
(((Hugs))) What a difficult situation...I'm sorry you're going through this.

I agree with what others have said, belittling you, calling you names, and literally threatening to go behind your back and do something that is clearly so upsetting to you you're already in tears is not a discussion. I would go so far as to call it emotionally abusive, and I would confront him with it.

I might even be tempted to say something like...

"It's not okay to talk to me like this. I deserve respect. Our son will be born perfect, no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.

The foreskin comes standard; a whole penis is the default.

Unless you can convince me in a calm & compelling manner that circumcision is necessary, it's not getting done, period.

Threatening to go behind my back and perpetuating something I consider to be abuse on our baby is unacceptable. Over. My. Dead. Body.

If you *ever* hurt one of our children like that we'll leave you so fast your head will spin."

Good luck,

Jen


----------



## fishface (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:

It's NOT cleaner b/c the penis is fused.
Exactly. Would you consider your fingernail beds to be dirty?







I know what you're going through. Let him know you are PASSIONATE about this for the safety of your baby. Don't pester him to death but don't give up, either.

Quote:

He said it was more painfull to have it done as an adult, even though I have read the opposite here.
Right on. Adults get pain meds. Babies get nothing.


----------



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!


----------



## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Alright!!! Maybe he just needed to think on it a little.
My dh was super resistant at first, but eventually relented, and now is convinced that circumcision is one of the worst evils of the world.







:
You never know, huh?
I'm so glad that he seems more open tonight. I truly hope, for you and yours, that he will continue to be this way.


----------



## fishface (Jan 6, 2007)

Woo hoo! What worked for me was sharing info/videos with him, backing off, letting him think, bringing it up again after a good while, rinse and repeat. Of course, every time our conversation evolved a little until he finally gave in. He said he will not put up a fight to circ because he doesn't feel like battling me, but he's a softie of a goober so I know it's REALLY because he doesn't want to slice and dice a baby, with a little bit of "not worth the battle" on the side.


----------



## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

i'm so sorry i went through 5 long months of this argument after ds was born...FINALLY WON!!! dh said almost the same things your dh said...guess it's a guy thing...tell him straight up "over my dead body" when you say this for the ummtenth 1000 time it sinks in...in all honesty my dh finally gave up he saw i was being serious... you'll win momma and don't back down your sons whole intact penis is on the line here! you'll be in my thoughts...


----------



## jesrox (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama* 
HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!











That is good that he is changing his mind. It took a bit of time for us as well. I was against it from the beginning, and he was for it. Watching the "aftercare" video as part of the parenting classes I dragged him to helped to convince him. I know one thing that hurt my case was that all of his friends with boys got them circ'd. I just held my ground-my baby, no circ!!!
As an adult, they get put under anastesia(spelled badly) and get pain meds after- neither are guarenteed as an infant!! They can't even have tylenol as newborns and people do surgery to them! It boggles the mind.

You are being such a good, strong momma and I know its hard fighting w/ the emotions of pregnancy. hang in there!!!


----------



## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Maybe he's be reassured that you can think he has a beautiful penis AND that you would never circumsize a child, ever. I think sometimes guys think you are rejecting their penis and that hurts. Whatever doubts you might have about what he might have been/had without circumsicion, this is probably not the time to bring them up.

One teenager I know tells people that being uncircumsized is "good for an extra inch". He knows it's not true, but he's a teenager likes to tweak the circ'ed guys.


----------



## terese17 (Dec 5, 2006)

After arguingwith my husband for months about it, I finally told him he had a choice. He could have our son cut when he was born, if he didn't want his son to have a mother, as I would kill the person that did it and then go to jail for murder. He chose to keep me around.


----------



## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama* 
HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!

Congrats! Early Fall is such a great time to have a baby! All three of mine were born 9/26/01, 10/04/99 and 10/13/97.


----------



## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Glad to hear he's warming to the concept. In Canada, the circ rate really is super low, as indicated above, and it's getting lower every year. Last I heard, it was down to 11%. I'm not sure if that figure is still accurate. I _personall_y do not know a single baby boy born in the last 5 years who has been circumsized. That's not bad.

If you're having a hospital birth, my experience has been that they don't take a self-written "birth plan", but fill out a form with you that works as one. One of the questions they ask is about circumcision. With my first pregnancy, they asked what our plans were. With the second baby, it wasn't even brought up. Now that it's not covered by Canada's health plan, I think you have to specifically ask for it. So you may want to ask them about that when you do your hospital tour. There's no risk of having it done behind your back in Canada. Since we now have to pay out of pocket for it, there are forms that will need to be filled out, that will no doubt be given to YOU to sign. With both of my births, all of the paperwork was given to me, not my husband.


----------



## catholic74 (May 21, 2007)

I can relate. I am 9 months pregnant and convinced that circumcision is a bad idea, yet my husband is not convinced. I am amazed and yet, relieved to read about the similarities here that I am going through myself. My husband too wouldn't do any research. He would just insist it be done. For most of my pregnancy, we just didn't talk about it. As the day draws near when our son will arrive, I brought it up gently and asked him to do some reseach. He did and even looked at sites I had hoped he would and I am now giving him space to absorb it all and have not brought it up again. I know my husband and I know he will need time to adjust to the idea of not circumcizing and to hopefully come to see why we shouldn't.

I would never say this to him at the moment, but regardless of what he decides, I cannot consent to my son being cut. It just will never happen. Because I feel this way, I'm praying he will come around. We only have a few more weeks to go now!

It's interesting to me as well, how it's the women who pave the way when it comes to certain things and men who are in denial or hide, etc and are always the last to get on board!

Also, of special note, my father is having a really hard time accepting that I don't want to circumcize. I can tell he's really upset about it but doesn't say too much to me as he respects that it's our decision. The decision not to circumcize can really upset a lot of of the family, not just the fathers (my mom doesn't really understand either..she circumcized my brother).


----------



## kyangel80 (Oct 5, 2005)

Didn't read any of the replies.

Oh, hon, that sounds like a difficult situation. I have a question for you, do you feel strongly enough about non-circing that you would be willing to go against your dh's wishes? If so then I woudn't worry about it any more. After all, they aren't going to be asking your dh if he would like your baby circ'd are they? With all 3 of my hospital births the nursing staff/doctors consulted me for everything, since I was the actual 'patient' to whom the child was born.









In the meantime, just work on discussing it with your dh from time to time. Give him some time to forget about the last discussion and then try to stay calm the next time. Hopefully by the time your little bellydweller is born your dh will be willing to forego the circ and just let your ds decide about rather or not he wants to get circ'd when he get old enough. Remind your dh that circumcision is FOREVER. If you don't circ, your son can always have it done at a later date, if you do circ there's no reversing what has been done.

I hope the two of you resolve this issue and make up quickly.(((((good vibes))))


----------



## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apricot* 
One teenager I know tells people that being uncircumsized is "good for an extra inch". He knows it's not true, but he's a teenager likes to tweak the circ'ed guys.

Actually, I've heard that men on here _have_ gained length, sometimes more than an inch, when restoring their foreskins. Especially if it was a tight circ, so I wouldn't say that it's untrue.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catholic74* 
I can relate. I am 9 months pregnant and convinced that circumcision is a bad idea, yet my husband is not convinced. I am amazed and yet, relieved to read about the similarities here that I am going through myself. My husband too wouldn't do any research. He would just insist it be done. For most of my pregnancy, we just didn't talk about it. As the day draws near when our son will arrive, I brought it up gently and asked him to do some reseach. He did and even looked at sites I had hoped he would and I am now giving him space to absorb it all and have not brought it up again. I know my husband and I know he will need time to adjust to the idea of not circumcizing and to hopefully come to see why we shouldn't.

I would never say this to him at the moment, but regardless of what he decides, I cannot consent to my son being cut. It just will never happen. Because I feel this way, I'm praying he will come around. We only have a few more weeks to go now!

It's interesting to me as well, how it's the women who pave the way when it comes to certain things and men who are in denial or hide, etc and are always the last to get on board!

Also, of special note, my father is having a really hard time accepting that I don't want to circumcize. I can tell he's really upset about it but doesn't say too much to me as he respects that it's our decision. The decision not to circumcize can really upset a lot of of the family, not just the fathers (my mom doesn't really understand either..she circumcized my brother).









to MDC and CAC.

If you need any information or links to help with convincing DH just ask we are here to help.

In the mean time _you_ are the one that has to sign the papers at the hospital, so you can just say "*no.*" Just make sure you say it loudly, and often.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *notyetamommy* 
Actually, I've heard that men on here _have_ gained length, sometimes more than an inch, when restoring their foreskins. Especially if it was a tight circ, so I wouldn't say that it's untrue.

Yes it probably has quite a bit of truth. However, it is the *worst* thing to say to a sensitive DH when arguing. It will just make him very defensive.


----------



## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

I wasn't saying that she should use that as an argument, I was just clearing up something apricot said was not true, when it may be. I would never talk about my dh's inadequacies when trying to convince him.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catholic74* 
I can relate. I am 9 months pregnant and convinced that circumcision is a bad idea, yet my husband is not convinced. I am amazed and yet, relieved to read about the similarities here that I am going through myself. My husband too wouldn't do any research. He would just insist it be done. For most of my pregnancy, we just didn't talk about it. As the day draws near when our son will arrive, I brought it up gently and asked him to do some reseach. He did and even looked at sites I had hoped he would and I am now giving him space to absorb it all and have not brought it up again. I know my husband and I know he will need time to adjust to the idea of not circumcizing and to hopefully come to see why we shouldn't.

I would never say this to him at the moment, but regardless of what he decides, I cannot consent to my son being cut. It just will never happen. Because I feel this way, I'm praying he will come around. We only have a few more weeks to go now!

It's interesting to me as well, how it's the women who pave the way when it comes to certain things and men who are in denial or hide, etc and are always the last to get on board!

Also, of special note, my father is having a really hard time accepting that I don't want to circumcize. I can tell he's really upset about it but doesn't say too much to me as he respects that it's our decision. The decision not to circumcize can really upset a lot of of the family, not just the fathers (my mom doesn't really understand either..she circumcized my brother).

Just wanted to say Welcome to MDC and CAC as well!

As eepster said, we are all here to support you in protecting your son. Have you read the 'Vulnerability of Men' article (I linked to it earlier in this thread)? It's very good for helping us women to understand what is going on for the men in our lives when they realise we don't want to circ.

Sounds like you are doing well with your dh...hopefully he is processing things at the moment and will be able to come to terms with his own circ, as well as being able to support you in protecting your son.

Hugs to you both...


----------



## imbarefoot (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
How about just put your foot down? Say, this baby is not being circumcised and that's the end of the discussion. I will not consent, and if you do it without my consent the marriage will be over. I am growing this baby, I am his mother and I will protect him with every fiber of my being. End of story. No more discussion.

You are giving him way too much power in this situation. Take your wind out of his sails. It's not his body, it's not his decision, so he may not decide to cut your son.


ITA!! I haven't had time to read this entire thread, only the first page, but I could have written this post. Hugs to you mama, you are fighting for a very important issue here. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. Follow Quirky's advise, seriously!!


----------



## catholic74 (May 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 







to MDC and CAC.

If you need any information or links to help with convincing DH just ask we are here to help.

In the mean time _you_ are the one that has to sign the papers at the hospital, so you can just say "*no.*" Just make sure you say it loudly, and often.

Thanks for the welcome!

We are having a homebirth, so we won't even be in a hospital. We would have to call the hospital, make and appointment and bring him in, all of which would happen over my dead body, of course! We recently discussed whether to have the Vitamin K shot administered and my midwife told me that if a boy is going to be circumcized, he must have the Vitamin K shot. I told my husband this (he has a right to be informed) and he was silent. He is thinking about it I suppose. He knows that if we do not consent to a Vitamin K shot, then we will esentially be passing on the circumcision as well. Anyone have any particular advice/info on the K shot in relation to circumcision? Sorry to get off subject.


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Ask him if he had to get his peepee cut right NOW as an adult if he would. I bet he'd say "NO". Then ask him why it's okay to cut a baby's penis?


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catholic74* 
Thanks for the welcome!

We are having a homebirth, so we won't even be in a hospital. We would have to call the hospital, make and appointment and bring him in, all of which would happen over my dead body, of course! We recently discussed whether to have the Vitamin K shot administered and my midwife told me that if a boy is going to be circumcized, he must have the Vitamin K shot. I told my husband this (he has a right to be informed) and he was silent. He is thinking about it I suppose. He knows that if we do not consent to a Vitamin K shot, then we will esentially be passing on the circumcision as well. Anyone have any particular advice/info on the K shot in relation to circumcision? Sorry to get off subject.

Well, first you need to decide not to circumcise







and then you need to make a separate decision about Vitamin K. I did it with my first, didn't with my second, and may or may not with my third -- hemorraghic disease of the newborn can occur in all different babies, male and female, those born in a hospital and those not, and those cut and those not. Although I don't vaccinate at all, I'm not convinced of the harms of Vitamin K, and the downsides, although rare, of not doing it are usually very serious. I may do oral K this time around, still haven't decided.


----------



## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catholic74* 
Anyone have any particular advice/info on the K shot in relation to circumcision? Sorry to get off subject.

The reason they are related is b/c of uncontrolled bleeding during the circumcision. You could use it to remind him that sometimes healthy baby boy bleed to death during the surgery, many more are weakened by uncontrolled bleeding.


----------



## Margot Adler (Jun 2, 2007)

Just a thought: He may need therapy to get through his feelings over this. If he is lashing out and behaving irrationally towards his pregnant wife clearly he has some unresolved issues that you may not be able to help him sort through on his own.
You are right to want to protect your baby. It should be his choice.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama* 
HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!

Can you trust him, or is he just appeasing you? I wouldn't necessarily trust his change of heart.

I left an ex because he said the things that your dh has been saying. However, luckily I wasn't even pregnant at the time - it was all hypothetical, but it was a dealbreaker for me.


----------



## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

That's great news! I'm betting that if he has had an opening of sanity, he won't go back to the dark side. There are so many things with parenting
that I have been "dead right" about and, then with education, completely
turned around 180 degrees on---vaccinations for one. We have to realize that people can see the light when they get some facts and have a chance to digest the info. Right from your first post, I thought "this is a guy who will come around". After all, he found a good woman like you to mother his children so he's got some smarts


----------



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Can you trust him, or is he just appeasing you? I wouldn't necessarily trust his change of heart.


Sadly, you're right. We were talking last night about the new Ontario co-sleeping info and how if FIL attacked my choices again I would lose my **** on him (again)
Then I asked if they would be all over us for not circing.
He gave me a scrunched up look like WTH and said --When did I decide it wasn't being done?

I LOST it. I feel duped. I pretty much talked at him and told him his reasons were crap (I was madder than mad) like being cleaner and looking like Daddy (Since he now knows our Dr. take on the situation-and it's not medically necessary)
So now he has to hang on to emotional reasons. STUPID emotional reasons IMO
I again stomped on the looking like Daddy argument and full on said Over my dead body will this be done.
*I* will be the patient-so they will be asking ME for the decision. (If it even comes up at all, since it is an optional procedure) and that I will sharpie the poor kids belly with NO CIRC if I have to. HE cannot sign papers without me-it WILL NOT be done. Then I told him to sleep with the dog and stormed off to bed.
Back to square -well maybe 2 or 3. Not totally starting from scratch, but AAARGH!

I'm printing off all I can find regarding Canada and he WILL be reading it tonight-in prep for seeing our Dr. in the morning.
PLEASE ladies, keep me in your thoughts. I was having palpatations in anger last night.
Why does he have to be so dense and stubborn? Dumb ass man!


----------



## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't come here often because it makes me mad but here you go with my two pennies

Keep your foot down Mama and sharpie your little babe from head to foot. And for now sharpie your dh's arms with something like 'I love you, you love me, you love your child: don't hurt him.' or just 'Over my dead body.....'

He is coming from a place of hurt which is why he is finding this hard. My dh is mad with his mum for many reasons but knowing that she asked some-one to snip off the overhang of his foreskin as a preemie baby just takes the biscuit. My dh's hurt is directed outward and he is very very anti-circ; your dh's is still within him and he is trying to build a fortress around it, hence the 'look like me' argument.

It may be that he has to make peace with himself in the months after your baby is born and he will finally come to realise that doing nothing to this perfect child was right. BUT you will have to be strong and make this decision so that he can see the reason later.

And politely - stuff the ILs.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

What province are you in MLM?


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

s Momma. I am so sorry he is doing this to you....especially at such a vulnerable time.

Does your dh not care that the Canadian circ rate is so low and most of the boys your son will grow up with will be left whole? We live in the Niagara region in Ontario and in our experience with family, friends and kids in swimming lesson changerooms, intact is DEFINITELY the majority now. In fact, seeing a circumcised boy somewhere is almost a shock.

I for one would hate to be the one to have to explain to my son why he is missing half of his sexual organ while most of his friends are not. There would just be nothing you could say to justify it when it is so blatently clear that it is totally unnecessary.

My dh is circumcised and our sons are intact. They are 5 and 2 and the only time it has ever come up is when my older guy retracted himself for the first time at age 4. He said look Mom, and showed me he could retract, and then he said, rather nonemotionally, hey, that looks like Daddys.

No further comments, no questions nothing. Thats how big of a deal it is to "not match" for a child. Men who want to have their sons look like them are not doing it for the well being of their sons, like they might try to convince themselves and others. The are doing it to reassure themselves that circumcised is "THE" way to be. The right way, the best way, the only way.

I hope for your sake, your dh comes around soon.

Take care,
Tara


----------



## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk* 
Poor Dh. Poor you







.

Give him some space and time to absorb all of this. Think how emotional you feel about it and know that even if he doesn't show it the same way that he's feeling just as emotional as you are, except the issue isn't just about a DS, it's about _him_. His brain is whirling right now. I really do feel for him, he's grasping at straws. I assume he doesn't normally make fun of you and minimize your thoughts and feelings etc (?). I assume that's atypical behavior for him







? It's so personal for him and I assume he felt backed into a corner (because he probably knows deep down that you're right about this because you're right about so many things due to research etc) and he dealt with it the only way he knew how without caving outright.

When he said you were hovering....I think that's actually a good thing because it means he's really thinking this over and giving it some intense thought and he needed some space to do that. He was probably afraid of how he'd react to the video or the feelings it might bring up. I mean, this was _done to him_, too. He probably feels that you expect him to go from thinking RIC is great (his penis is great) to thinking it's terrible (his penis is terrible and you don't like it and maybe it even makes him feel like he doesn't like his penis and so what does that say about him as a man?) in one conversation and that's just asking a lot of him.

When I approached my DH I took it sllllllloooooooowly. Gave lots of time for things to sink in. ITA with reading vunerability of men if you haven't yet. It will help you a lot. Give you DH time to think about things....weeks or months if you have it. If not, put your foot down and hope that he comes around.

Your poor DH. It makes me cry to think of what was done to our men.









: Yes yes yes! Maple Leaf Momma we had similar types of discussions before DD was born. DH was definitly grasping at straws. We were both actually relieved when DD was a girl because it had been such a tense issue. Even if they won't admit it (my dh won't) men are traumatized by their circs and having to discuss it is painful for them. With this pregnancy when DH started talking about having another baby I drew the line then. I told him I was not going to have another baby if he wanted to circ. He consented to leave a son intact and we haven't discussed it again. You have gotten good advice so far. Try to be sensative to him this is something he may not have had to confront.

ETA: The threatening to circ when you weren't looking thing kind of bothers me. Why would your DH threaten to do something you were so adamently against that did not involve your child's immediate health? Did he ever say?


----------



## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Personally, I really think he is just being silly and not thinking. Maybe it is something about pregnancy too that just creates these conflicts at times.

Don't back down, but I'd have to guess your dh realized you really were serious and hopefully is smart enough to *think* about the issue a bit before dismissing it.

It is so hard when things are stressful during pregnancy, but don't let him use that as an excuse either. Your feelings and instincts are backed up by logic science and biology (as in biological norm IS intact).

Jessica


----------



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I'm so sorry.

Tell him if he wants his penis to match the baby's, you expect him to shave his pubic hair and pack ice in his shorts until the baby hits puberty.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

You could try telling about our fam:

My husband has mongolian birth marks on his back (dark blue birth marks that look like bruises). With your husband's logic, I should beat my son a little so that their backs match!


----------



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

I just called the birthing unit where I will give birth and asked them about this.
She told me that she has NEVER dealt with this problem! She said most parents agree.








I explained the problem and she told me that she JUST today had a father sign the conscent form. Because only ONE parent needs to sign. Though it would likely be given to me since I am the patient.
She gave me the name and number of their social worker who will know all about the legalities of this. But that I could have it put in my chart ahead of time so it would be refused if DH asked.
But she said my OB doesn't do it. Only 2 Dr.s at the hospital do.

I'm fully expecting that our Dr. and I (and the 100 or so pages of info) will convince him in time.
If not, I'll have my ducks in a row with the hospital prior to check in.








I'll keep ya posted! (Oh, and I'm in Ontario)


----------



## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

when i hear about men saying they want the baby to look like them, i wonder how they would respond to the question "who is it important to? the baby? or daddy?" cuz i am 100% sure the baby doesn't care! and that leaves daddy wanting to cut up _his child_ for his own desires. it has nothing to do with the baby at all.


----------



## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *titania8* 
when i hear about men saying they want the baby to look like them, i wonder how they would respond to the question "who is it important to? the baby? or daddy?" cuz i am 100% sure the baby doesn't care! and that leaves daddy wanting to cut up _his child_ for his own desires. it has nothing to do with the baby at all.

Exactly! It's for Daddy's emotional comfort, not the child's IMO. Believe me, he'll hear this over and over until he sees the light.

ETA--JUST spoke to the hospital social worker. What a doll. She even said at the end that we could have some really great talks about raising kids-as we also talked about her attached son and my very attached DD. 
She is also a marriage councellor and she walked me through this.
She is placing my wishes in my chart right now. It is now documented that I am 100% against this. DH can't do this on his own. (Not that I really think he would try) But I feel SO much better that my ducks are in a row. I feel protected now.
And I still have 3 months to get DH on board.
The 2 dr.s that do the cutting at my hospital are the 2 Dr.s that delivered DD. I just saw one of them recently. There is a one in 8 (I think) chance that one of them will be delivering DS.
I know I will come across as a loud mouth-but ya know--I'm really OK with that








I'll keep you up to date on DH and the Dr.s appt tomorrow. LOL


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama* 
HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!

Fingers crossed! (My youngest says he is going to name his son 'Rock of Fierceness'. It's a nice little name. You could get used to it







:.)


----------



## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

I'm so sorry about your dh changing again!







: It sounds like you're really doing a good job preparing, though! Its good that the social worker is helping out.
I hope that the dr's visit goes well!


----------



## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Maybe you could show him this:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/circumcis...rcumcision.htm


----------



## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

I think Rock is a cool name.

If you still have any worries come delivery time, you do not ever have to let the baby out of your room for anything. Hospital staff will give you a hard time, but there are no newborn procedures that can't be done in your room, it is just an inconvenience for the staff. Much easier to have the babies lined up assembly-line style in the nursery, but is that better for the patient or for the staff?? Of course you can just go with if they want to take him, but you really don't have to let him go out of the room at all.
Good luck with your husband. It is so sad what happened to so many men when they were babies 20, 30, 40 years ago. And the fallout continues as so many deal with the trauma by doing it to their sons, then they can rest assured that "it was done to me because it was NECESSARY, that's why I HAD to do it to my son too."
Best to your family.

Jen


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Maybe you could show him this:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/circumcis...rcumcision.htm

I like how they attribute circumcision of females as abuse, yet they don't think the same of males being circumsized.


----------



## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammyswanson* 
I like how they attribute circumcision of females as abuse, yet they don't think the same of males being circumsized.

Male circumcision is listed under the section "Child abuse" and they call it mutilation and say it should be illegal. What part are you talking about?


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
I think Rock is a cool name.


I knew a boy named Rock.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Any update on this?


----------



## kaylee18 (Dec 25, 2005)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...67&postcount=7


>


----------

