# nightweaning



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

_The following links contain loads of helpful information about either nightweaning or encouraging your child to sleep longer at night._

Dr. Jay Gordon says:

Quote:

I never want to see my ideas applied to a four month old or even a seven month old baby. As a matter of fact, I am not too excited about pushing any baby around at night but I know that sometimes it will be done and I'd like to offer a gentle, supported plan for *after the first year*.

...
*I don't recommend any forced sleep changes during the first year of life.*
http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm

Dr. Sears says:

Quote:

When trying any behavior-changing technique on a child, don't persist with a bad experiment. Use your baby's daytime behavior as a barometer of whether your change in nighttime parenting style is working. If after several nights of working on night weaning your baby is her same self during the day then persist with your gradual night weaning. If, however, she becomes more clingy, whiny, or distant, take this as a clue to slow down your rate of night weaning.

Babies will wean and someday they will sleep through the night. This high maintenance stage of nighttime parenting will pass. The time in your arms, at your breast, and in your bed is a relatively short while in the life of a baby, yet the memories of love and availability last forever. http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070800.asp
He also does not recommend nightweaning prior to 18 months, but you have to read in context of the entire article, and maybe in some of his books as well.

and

Quote:

If your current daytime or nighttime routine is not working for you, think about what changes you can make in yourself and your lifestyle that will make it easier for you to meet your baby's needs. This is a better approach than immediately trying to change your baby. After all, you can control your own reactions to a situation. You can't control how your baby reacts.
...
Nightfeedings are normal; frequent, painful nightwaking is not. see also Hidden Medical Causes of Nightwaking

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070300.asp
And from KellyMom:

Quote:

Remember that sleeping through the night is a developmental milestone (like walking or toilet training) that different babies will reach at different times. At some point, your child will sleep through the night - even if you do nothing to encourage it.

If night weaning is not going well, then consider backing off and trying again a little later. The closer your child is to reaching this milestone on his own, the easier it will be for both child and parents.
...
Remember that night waking in babies and young children is temporary!
Children grow out of night waking, even when we do nothing to discourage it. This period of time will be a very tiny part of your child's years with you.

A child's internal timetable for sleeping through the night can vary greatly. Some parents are comfortable with letting the child lead when it comes to night weaning, but for others night nursing truly interferes with their quality of life. If night nursing is not working for you, then encourage changes while taking into account the needs of your child.

Your goal is to maximize sleep for everyone, and if what you're doing works, then you've met your goal. If it's not working (or stops working) then you can always do things differently. All parents find that they change the way they do things as their child grows older and reaches different developmental stages - sleep is just another thing that changes as your child grows.
Like Dr. Sears, she also emphasizes that her nightweaning suggestions are for "toddlers" - not infants, not babies, but TODDLERS!

And, here is an inspiring article from Mothering Mag about learning patient parenting, that I think is also appropriate here:

Quote:

There are notes, relentless and obsessive, chronicling the same child's waking in the night. He finally slept through at age twenty-five months, one week. In the months leading up to that first silent night we developed many plans of action, but we were too exhausted to follow them through. It was abundantly clear that nothing we ever did or didn't do about it made one whit of difference.
...
But in the raising, so much is lost. Not just the hours spent toilet training that could have been spent in play, but those things we prune off along the way - child logic, child language, child priorities - in our haste to grow our seedlings up. If we wean our breastfeeding children before they speak, we will never hear them describe an experience lost to memory for most of us. If we teach them too soon to tell time and live by our schedules, they will lose touch with the rhythm of their inner selves, the same rhythm that carried them into the world when the time was exactly right, hours or weeks after the midwife said simply, "trust". http://www.mothering.com/articles/bo...parenting.html


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

i feel like this thread was posted in response to the one i started about nightweaning at one year. i just want to make perfectly clear that i would NEVER EVER EVER forcefully change my ds' sleep habits. EVER. i'm not saying that you are insinuating that; i just want to make sure that it is clear. if ds was not receptive to nightweaning, or to reduced nursing frequency, than so be it. but i think its definetely appropriate to try and find ways to help ds sleep without the boob.

Quote:

I don't recommend any forced sleep changes during the first year of life.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

This forum has been inundated recently with lots of threads about nightweaning. If anyone would bother to use the search feature, they'd find many older posts where parents attempted to nightwean before their child was ready, and only made their problems that much worse instead of better.

Even the experts who do support nightweaning usually agree that it's not a good idea prior to 18 months of age. To be honest with you, I disagree. I personally feel that baby will stop nursing at night when baby no longer *needs* to nurse at night. For some, that's much sooner than for others. Nursing is not always about food, there is more to breastfeeding than the milk, and that comfort is a real need. As attached parents, it is our job to meet our children's needs. I very strongly believe that nightweaning can and often does lead to premature weaning from the breast altogether. As much trouble as I had getting my firstborn to nurse in the first place, that is a huge concern to me.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
Even the experts who do support nightweaning usually agree that it's not a good idea prior to 18 months of age. To be honest with you, I disagree. I personally feel that baby will stop nursing at night when baby no longer *needs* to nurse at night. For some, that's much sooner than for others. Nursing is not always about food, there is more to breastfeeding than the milk, and that comfort is a real need. As attached parents, it is our job to meet our children's needs. I very strongly believe that nightweaning can and often does lead to premature weaning from the breast altogether. As much trouble as I had getting my firstborn to nurse in the first place, that is a huge concern to me.









Thank you, stafl. Your posts are always so affirming to read, like Peggy's editorials









ETA: I always feel that before implementing any major changes in a child's life, such as nightweaning (if necessary), it would be ideal to wait until the child is of an age where you can *explain* it to them, and have them understand, at least to a degree. Eg. explaining that while it's dark out, the boobies are sleeping too, or however you want to phrase it. My ds, at 11 months, is WAY too young to understand this. But maybe an 18-24 month old would. I'm sure others will disagree with this but it's just my 2 cents.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Thank you for this post stafl.

I feel extreamly discouraged to visit this forum recently, which seems to have become the "The Family Bed & NIGHTWEANING". I expect it elsewhere, kwim? Just disappointing here.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I know this link is in my OP, but it's hidden in the quote from a different page at Dr. Sears' website:

Quote:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070400.asp
HIDDEN MEDICAL CAUSES OF NIGHTWAKING

As a pediatrician, one of the reasons I am becoming increasingly cautious about insensitively using the cry-it-out approach to get babies to sleep longer is that doctors and parents automatically assume that a nightwaking baby has bad sleeping habits and they miss underlying painful causes of nightwaking. Suspect a medical cause for nightwaking if:

baby awakens with sudden colicky-type abdominal pains
a good sleeper suddenly becomes a restless sleeper
baby has not slept well since birth
there are other signs or symptoms of illness
baby cries inconsolably
your intuition tells you something is wrong
no other cause is apparent
obviously, if there is a medical reason your child is waking often at night, nightweaning will do absolutely nothing at all to help your situation! Unless, of course, your attempts to nightwean serve to sleep train your child (with or without CIO, no matter what you might want to call it).


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

stafl ... just wanted to thank you for the links and the reminders. Sometimes, when you're so tired you can't see straight from yet another bad night of sleep, it is really difficult to see that the nightwaking and all night nurse-a-thons at Mom's All-Night Diner will all end on their own someday. I keep hearing those around me say it's time to nightwean blah-blah-blah, and it is sometimes so hard to ignore those voices when you're drop dead tired. It is comforting to have some place to come where wise mamas can remind me of why I'm doing this, why my ds is benefiting so much from it, and that it will all end in its own time.

Thanks!


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Thank you for this thread... I appreciate the support & information I get here, especially when the majority of moms I know outside of LLL have weaned their babies by one year, and I'm cautioned by a parent educator to "guard against bad sleep associations" like nursing to sleep.







There are just a few places I can come for support for nursing past 1 year & nursing at night and this is one of them & I appreciate it.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

great links


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

In talking about all these topics, there is much discussion about "infants", "babies", and "toddlers". Which term refers to which age?

I've considered night-weaning my 18m old son only because I am going insane from exhaustion. We've been trying a bunch of different things and right now (what is sort-of working) my husband is sleeping on the floor so my son and I can have the bed and more room. We can't keep this up forever. But working moms like myself are expected to do all the happy tra-la-la "good" parenting things as well as get up in the morning to go to work and be functional. Housework? Forget it!

Something's got to give, and at the moment it's me. I'm sure that his nightwaking would end on its own, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out...maybe some would think that this makes me a bad parent, but I think it makes me human. I do think that I can't be a very good parent when all I want to do on the weekends when I have unlimited time to spend with my son is to sleep all day, and to be frank nodding off at my desk is getting old.

- Jen


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## KariM (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks so much for sharing the link to the patient parenting article.

While my babe is only 5 months old, her nightwaking (every hour and sometimes every 1/2 hour) has been draining this past week.

I needed a reminder that she will grow out of it when the time is right!









--Kari


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Mainegirl, you're right. It's okay to be human and tired, and when things aren't working for you, try to change something. there comes a time when exhaustion is so great that you have to take stock...Am I falling asleep at the wheel?? At work?? One time I Woke UP!! at a red light. Didn't remember the 1/2 mile or so before it. Whoa, time to make a change. I would rather nightwean my kid or toddler or whatever than to be dead. Just my opinion


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Thank you for those great links, Stafl.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

bump


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## butterflyma (May 14, 2002)

Thanks for sharing some great info


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

bump


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## ms. pacman (May 4, 2004)

I agree with Henry's mamma! I've got a restless sleeper and every morning when I wake up I think and sometimes say, "am i doing something wrong?" and luckily my wonderful dh says that it's normal, she's a baby, and she'll grow out of it eventually. It can be really hard when it just seems to be going on and on though. I guess that's why I clicked on the nightweaning thread to begin with







:


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks for this thread! As a mom who nighttime nursed until dd was 3 1/2, and currently with an almost 3 year old who still sometimes nurses at night, all the nightweaning threads can make me feel alone in responding to my children's need to nurse at night. I have definitely been there with the 2 year old fequently waking and wondering what I was doing wrong, and fighting exhaustion during the day. But we hung in there, it is temporary, and they actually turn into great sleepers. Not to diminish what others are going through, but it is nice to see a thread supportive of my experience.


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## RosesArePurple (Nov 20, 2004)

Wow! This thread is great. I haven't lurked here in a long time since doing research in the dental forums. My 2 yo still nurses at night and while I have found it to be exhausting and been ready to nightwean (I'm not a good nighttime parent I get grumpy with my ds :-( ). There's always been a bit of me pulling at me telling me it's not time. The andecdote by farmer mama that "long time" night wakers can and do become good sleepers struck a chord with me.

It's been my secret fear that my son would never be good sleeper and have sleep issues his whole life because I've ignored all the CIO, sleep in your own bed from day one parents.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
In talking about all these topics, there is much discussion about "infants", "babies", and "toddlers". Which term refers to which age?

I've considered night-weaning my 18m old son only because I am going insane from exhaustion. We've been trying a bunch of different things and right now (what is sort-of working) my husband is sleeping on the floor so my son and I can have the bed and more room. We can't keep this up forever. But working moms like myself are expected to do all the happy tra-la-la "good" parenting things as well as get up in the morning to go to work and be functional. Housework? Forget it!

Something's got to give, and at the moment it's me. I'm sure that his nightwaking would end on its own, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out...maybe some would think that this makes me a bad parent, but I think it makes me human. I do think that I can't be a very good parent when all I want to do on the weekends when I have unlimited time to spend with my son is to sleep all day, and to be frank nodding off at my desk is getting old.

- Jen

I just wanted to bump up Jen's question, since no one has offered a response.

The other day I met a mom who is just beginning to wean her 9 mo. She was amazed that I am still bfing my almost-18 mo, and seemed really open to the idea of bfing longer. But I couldn't figure out how to sell it to her because she works full time and pretty much the only time her baby nurses is at night... _all night._ Like mainegirl, she is falling asleep at work and a total mess on the weekends. What could I tell her?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
In talking about all these topics, there is much discussion about "infants", "babies", and "toddlers". Which term refers to which age?

I'll try to answer this question, but I suspect the answers you are looking for are at the websites I linked to earlier. I consider an infant to be a child who is totally dependent upon breastmilk for 100% of his or her nutritional needs. Yeah, sure, some babies are ready for solids before others, and some have solids forced upon them too soon. But basically, an infant is not to the age where solids are necessary. I think of a baby that is unable to crawl as an infant.
A toddler is a baby that can walk. For the nightweaning discussion, I'd probably add to that description that a toddler is an older baby, one who is learning to talk and who eats lots of solid food.

A child who depends on breastmilk for 100% or even 75% of his nutrition NEEDS to nurse. Nightweaning is denying that basic need for food.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
The other day I met a mom who is just beginning to wean her 9 mo. She was amazed that I am still bfing my almost-18 mo, and seemed really open to the idea of bfing longer. But I couldn't figure out how to sell it to her because she works full time and pretty much the only time her baby nurses is at night... all night. Like mainegirl, she is falling asleep at work and a total mess on the weekends. What could I tell her?

do you have her email addy? I'd send her the link to kellymom.com I'm sure there's a page on that website about reverse cycling (which is what her baby is doing, and it's perfectly normal in her situation). I'd give her the info from the WHO and AAP about how babies get 90% of their nutrition from milk for the first year, and the recommendation to nurse for at least two years. I'd ask her if she knows how to nurse in bed, and snooze after latching the baby on.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Stafl, I did tell her about MDC and kellymom, and recomended "Nursing Mother, Working Mother."

She does co-sleep and I got the impression she is getting some sleep while nursing in bed, but I know from my own experience I could never get good sleep while T-Bone was nursing all night. He went thru a period of a couple mo where he had to have my nipple in his mouth all night long, and altho I am very good at sleeping while nursing, this was just awful. My back was killing me and I never felt fully rested. (This was also while I worked full time, so I had to get up in the morning, and no naps for me.) Fortuantely for me, this was only a temporary situation; i soon went back to school and was able to nurse him more during the day so he quit nursing so much at night. But I still didn't know what to tell this woman about how to make her life more tolerable _now_.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I went through reverse cycling the first year as well. What got me through was remembering that this is what will keep the nursing relationship going as long as we'd both like it to. Not always easy on those nights when they wake up 10 times. But also what has helped waiting for dd for nightweaning is knowing that nightweaning isn't going to stop a child from waking up at night and needing comfort. I always cringe a bit at mothers with children less than a year old who want to wean or nightwean b/c they aren't getting enough sleep. Weaning isn't going to stop illness or teething or the reaching of developmental milestones or night terrors or any of those other wonderful things besides hunger that are usually responsible for your child waking up at night. So I took comfort in knowing that when I nursed dd at night I was giving her the comfort she needed and that by doing this it was going to get us all back to sleep sooner.

Family bed never worked for us except for a couple of occasions when dd was sick. So she's been in a crib in our room. I just found I couldn't sleep through her nursing and she was waking up to nurse more frequently being that close to me. It was just easier to take her into the living room, watch The Daily Show, let her nurse back to sleep and go back to bed myself.

DD at 20 months is still waking 1-2x/night. I'm sort of nightweaning. Well, actually beginning to make sure she wants to nurse rather than assume and comforting her if that's really all she wants when she wakes.


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

Not that this is earth shattering news, but the main thing that keeps a breastfeeding relationship alive and thriving is proximity. If a mom is working all day away from baby then it is more difficult to bf..it's that simple. If the only option to continue is an all night nurse a thon, then the mom has to make a choice--is breastfeeding her child important enough to make those personal sacrifices. If bf continues, I'd suggest making sure that support from the family and like-minded nursing friends are in place. Support for working mothers who want to maintain a nursing relationship is paramount to its success.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Since you all have been talking about me and I completely missed it, I figured I'd drop in with an update since it's now six months since my original post.









As with all things, that phase, too, did pass. My son is still breastfeeding quite a lot, and he still drives me crazy some nights, but the key is that he is now old enough that I can reason with him somewhat.

He gets mad when I tell him "Mommy's breasts are going to sleep, it's time for you to go to sleep, too," but it's getting increasingly easier to prompt him to go to sleep without the boob.

My issue with him wasn't the need to nurse, I have no problem with that, but it was the constant calisthenics and the heel in the eye that I took issue with. He would swap from one nipple to the other every thirty seconds or so, accompanied with a bellyflop onto me each time. After an hour or so of this I was ready to go mad.

It was getting to the point that all he needed to do is roll over and touch my arm, and he'd rouse himself enough to start pawing at me. It was very disruptive to both our sleep cycles and it became obvious that it was more out of habit than need by the time he was 18-20 months old.

We've started having discussions about respecting other peoples' bodies and how Mommy likes to be asked before he starts lifting my shirt. We also bargain - "Michael, you can have as much milk as you want right now, but once you start to fall asleep Mommy will bring you to bed and rub your back for you." Things like that, setting limits, has worked very well for us.

My son is getting a definite idea that he needs to respect other peoples' space, and we in return will respect his space should he need it. He also knows how to go to sleep on his own, but who wouldn't like to have mom and dad right there? We'll often lay with him until he is asleep, then get up. He's also a major pillow hog









I'd say that we have one terrible night (either very disruptive nursing or a battle going to bed) every two weeks, and the rest of the time we all sleep pretty well. Some nights if my husband and son are already asleep and hogging the bed I'll sleep on the couch. Kidlet will come out to the living room around 4am and take advantage of drive-thru nursing, since the couch is very convenient for him while standing.

All in all, though, as my son's second birthday appears on the horizon (August 7), I'm glad that we've kept nursing. Sure, it's hard sometimes and I miss out on some sleep that I might have like to have had, but I also feel that we're very close due to our quiet time together.


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## Monkeypants (Apr 30, 2004)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents here. I agree with most of the comments made here about nightweaning- i.e.- it's normal for breastfed babies and children to nurse at night- our cultural obsession with sleeping through etc. With my 1st DD- who nursed every hour and a half throughout the night until I nightweaned her at 18 months- she still didn't sleep through the night until she was 4- so nightweaning isn't always the answer to nightwaking.
Also, I wanted to make the point that nightweaning doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal. I recently worked to wean my 18 month old from her midnight nursing. Now she sleeps through until anywhere from 2-4 am and then nurses sometimes 1, 2 or 3 more times after that (the last time is a wake-up nursing). This gives me at least 3 hours and usually more of good sleep before the nursing starts. This is my deepest and most restful sleep of the night and I usually get up in the morning feeling like I got enough sleep. I don't plan on nightweaning any more than this. I think doing something like this might work for some of the more sleep deprived mama's out there.
Just wanted to share my experience!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

can we sticky this thread?


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I agree, I think babies under 18 months are generally too young to nightwean. I say I nightweaned my daughter around that age (or was she 2? I guess I was too tired to make a note of it at the time...) It made a huge difference for me in terms of sleep. And she was very verbal; we talked about it and she grasped the concept that we would nurse when the sun came up. She started sleeping for longer stretches, but if she woke up, we did nurse for a short time. We'd go sit in a chair instead of nursing in bed.

But I just realized, I guess she isn't really nightweaned after all, at almost-4! We recently devised a strategy for her to stay dry at night, and part of it involves taking her into the bathroom for a midnight pee. Often when I put her back in bed, she will intone "I want to nurrrrrrrrrrse..." And we do, for a few minutes.

However, I have definitely recommended nightweaning to people who otherwise would have weaned entirely. I hear frustration and "I'm ready to wean!" stories from mamas who are just so tired and touched-out. I am pro-CLW, but my personal definition means that the child chooses the time to stop nursing altogether. I am OK with limits and/or nightweaning, after 18-24 motnhs, depending on the child. So I don't think that nightweaning has to spell the end of breastfeeding; on the contrary, in some cases, it may be what keeps the mom nursing longer. I think it's far, far better to nightwean and keep nursing than to quit altogether because you're so sleep deprived!


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

Thank you thank you.
DS and I have had some rough night lately. I am getting way too grumpy and can barely make it thru the day. It is my older guy that i feel bad for. I become so angry at night when I have had no sleep and have no down time in my day.
Anyways, thanks, just what I needed to be reading. Nightweaning has been on my mind a lot of nights. I needed this reassuring...


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## honeysucklemama (Jun 28, 2005)

I just want to add something. Excessive night waking in a child of ANY age, and reverse cycle nursing (refuse all day, nurse all night) usually has a CAUSE. It is a nursing problem really and NOT a sleep problem. If you can find a really good LC you can probably get to the bottom of the NURSING PROBLEM that is causing the night waking and help everyone sleep better.

I say this because I AM a LC, and in 5 years of practice I can tell you that it is the RARE baby who wakes excessively or reverse cycles who does not have a daytime nursing issue that contributes to the sleep issue. Once we get to the root of the nursing problem, the sleep issue is often also solved.

BY excessive waking, btw, I mean babies and toddlers who wake every 1.5/2 hours all night long. 3-4 hour stretches are not only normal for babies under a year, they are actually managable if you are willing to co-sleep. I've had three babies now with health problems that caused frequent night waking and 3-4 hour stretches all night long are GOOD nights. I kiss the ground in joy when my current nursling lets me sleep a 4 hour stretch without waking.

Its all in your perspective.



My older children, 4 and 7, still don't "sleep through the night". But, then again, neither did I EVER even before children, so they come by it honestly.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

I personally think whether or not you and your lil one should nightwean is something each mama should really figure out for herself... I am still nursing my 18 mo old, at night as well, and have considered night weaning, but have decided to continue nursing a little bit longer since he seems to need it right now, and I feel I can manage it. It bothers me though that some of the mamas seem to have a judgemental "tone" that is not supportive of other mamas who have decided to night wean. I agree with the lady who said that sometimes it is better to night wean and be alive than to be so tired that you "wake up at a stop light" . I am sure that mama's baby is appreciative of her getting more sleep! We all want what is best for our babies but sometimes life gets in the way- I bet many of the mamas contemplating night weaning are, like me, working and or going to school in addition to being a mama. Just a hunch.

A great thread, BTW. Thanks for all the informative links.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeysucklemama*
I just want to add something. Excessive night waking in a child of ANY age, and reverse cycle nursing (refuse all day, nurse all night) usually has a CAUSE. It is a nursing problem really and NOT a sleep problem. If you can find a really good LC you can probably get to the bottom of the NURSING PROBLEM that is causing the night waking and help everyone sleep better.

I agree that excessive nightwaking usually has a cause. Sometimes it is a nursing problem. In my experience, it's always been allergies, either environmental or dietary. But that's just my experience. Dr. Sears has a page (linked on the first page of this thread) on some of the hidden causes of nightwaking.


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## lavender6 (Feb 9, 2004)

I appreciate the desire and commitment to be attentive to a child's needs that is motivating this thread; however, for those who are growing frustrated with the mention of nightweaning on this site, wouldn't you rather have someone ask for gentle suggestions here than look elsewhere and be told to just let the baby cry to sleep? I believe there are all kinds of attachment parents, not just one fixed model, and every situation is different. So while some of us might feel there is no need or cause for us to nightwean, others may need that help, and I'd like to think that people here are open enough to accept that need and offer what they can in terms of support and suggestions. It frustrates me to think that some have such black-and-white ideas of what is okay down to every last little parenting decision we all have to make. I think it is best to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume if they are coming here to ask for help, they are still trying to do right by their child.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeysucklemama*
I just want to add something. Excessive night waking in a child of ANY age, and reverse cycle nursing (refuse all day, nurse all night) usually has a CAUSE. It is a nursing problem really and NOT a sleep problem. If you can find a really good LC you can probably get to the bottom of the NURSING PROBLEM that is causing the night waking and help everyone sleep better.

Hmmm. interesting, and something to think about.
But there is a VERY big difference in my son's nightwaking when he nurses to sleep vs when he falls asleep some other way (usually walking). When he nurses to sleep, he wakes up every hour or 2. When I walk him to sleep, he usually has a stretch of anywhere from 4-7 hours, then wakes up every 2 hrs or so after that.
As far as I can tell, the only difference is HOW he goes to sleep. Well, maybe another difference is that the nights he will be walked to sleep, I generally have walked him to sleep for naps, and not nursed him.

If you saw this situation, would you still say that there is some type of nursing problem, and not really a sleeping problem? If so, where do I start looking?

Thanks
Becky
Keagan 11 mos


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## honeysucklemama (Jun 28, 2005)

I lump food allergies in an infant under 1 year in with "nursing problems" because often part of the problem is that the mother is still eating the problem food, and those foods are being passed onto baby. Food allergies are a very common cause of night waking.

I REALLY resist any notion that there is a "big no no" to night weaning before 18 months. Although I nursed my older two children for three years, and allowed unrestricted night nursing for that entire period, I also know that this is something that was PERSONALLY ok for me.

I have been in the situation, however, of counselling parents who really needed to night wean their children. IDEALLY night-weaning happens naturally and compassionately and is only attempted in a child over 18 months who has the capactiy to understand what is being said. BUT, we don't live in an ideal world and we all have to play the hand we are dealt.



None of us can really be in another person's position, and until we have walked in the proverbial shoes, we should err on the side of listening and understanding. Here's an example. As a lactation consultant MY huge hot button is people who want to wean their young babies when they are under one year of age. When I have people who call me for advice on that, I have to REALLY resist the knee-jerk "lecture" response. I HATE that people want to wean under one year, and I REALLY want to load on the "reasons" why they shouldn't.

BUT, when I can control myself and just find out what is REALLY going on I actually find that in MOST cases the mother really does NOT want to wean. She just is having seemingly unsurmoutable nursing issues and is frustrated and upset. WHen I can listen and validate her worries and concerns, and guide her to a good solution, only RARELY have I had a mother insist that she still wants to wean.

Sleep depriavation is a HUGE issue. When sleep deprivation reaches a critical point, many things suffer. Mothers who are slept deprived can be short-tempered, forgetful, and easily frustrated. AND, the old statement is true "when momma ain't happy, there ain't no one happy". SO, a grumpy mom can be short and angry with older children and her husband and partner.

Driving while sleep deprived has been shown to be more dangerous than driving drunk. Long term sleep deprivation has consequences for a mother's long term health. It can cause problems with glucose regulation and can cause pre-diabetes like symptoms.



I would be willing to bet that when a mother is EMBRACED and validated, she may end up deciding that she does not need to night wean at all. BUT, I think it is also important to note that some babies under 18 months may need to be night weaned for a variety of reasons. If mom's health, sanity, or marriage are in question, I'm pretty sure I can make a case that all these are more essential to a child's well being than whether or not they are allowed unrestricted nursing through the first 18 months of life.

Anyway, I think that the references posted on this thread are GREAT and that every mom considering night-weaning should read through them. BUT, I also think that we should see with eyes of compassion before we make any blanket statements. After all, although MOST of us co-sleep AND nurse, you can co-sleep with a formula fed baby as well. AND, night nursing and night weaning are important aspects of night parenting that are worthy of being discussed EVEN if a mom decides she needs to night wean her child.

I would hope that all these forums are a place where mothers who want to "do right" by their children can freely discuss ways to parent compassionately. When you make a topic like "night weaning" taboo, you drive desperate parents to other less-supportive and open minded places for help.


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## honeysucklemama (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi, Becky,

You start with baby's history and work forward to decide. Allergic babies have all kinds of symptoms, and allergy is the most common reason why babies excessively night wake. Yes, it can be habit, but examining all the potential causes won't hurt.



Try PMing me and I'll send you some of the references on sleep and allergies that I have.

Tricia


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## lavender6 (Feb 9, 2004)

Thanks for your eloquence!


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

Thanks honeysucklemama, I should have clarified that this thread is helping me continue night nursing. Although when wehave several nights of no sleep for mama, I do feel that maybe night weaning would be the best for the whole family. DS2 is a mover and a scrathcher and I have yet to be able to sleep thru nursing. So some nights I am up all the time and never feel like i have had any rest. The next day I feel for my children becuse I start the day frustrated.
Anyways, thanks again Mama's


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

We're in the middle of the night weaning process with our 25 month old dd. I was one of those mommies at the point talked about earlier- contemplating weaning all together beacuse I was getting so overwhelmed and so exhausted.

It has not been an easy process. There have been a lot of tears (hers and mine) and a lot of frustration, although her behavior hasn't necessarily changed during the day, which leads me to think that we're on the right path. I think the dirty secret that no one ever tells you about night weaning is that just because they aren't nursing at night doesn't mean that they are sleeping through the night. My little one still wakes up several times a night, and there are some nights she accepts cuddling or rocking instead of nursing, and there are some nights where she protests pretty loudly. I also tried to get to 6 am without nursing, and realized that that was pretty impractical for her. She usually has a pretty early bedtime- rarely is she in bed later than eight o'clock, and it just seemed really long for her to go from 8pm-6am without nursing. She would wake up at 4 or 4:30 and want to nurse, and if I refused her, she would cry and fuss until she just decided to wake up for the day.

So yes, I am getting a little more sleep at night- there have been one or two nights where she has slept straight from 8 to 4 am or so in her own bed. But more often than not, I am still awakened by a little one needing comfort in the middle of the night. (And she likes to snuggle up as close to my breat as possible.)

Jus my $.02.


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