# Would you make your daughter wear a bra?



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have an 11-year-old who loves to wear a bra but doesn't need one, so this isn't an issue here, but I remember when I was a kid refusing to wear a bra for some period of time. I was a late bloomer so by the time it got to be that big of an issue I was more accommodating. It does make me wonder what I would do if she were larger and refused, how I'd handle it?

What have you done, or what would you do?


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## Kate&Joey (Sep 8, 2006)

Interesting and timely question!

DSD showed up at our house a few weeks ago with sports bras for soccer and a 'bralette' to wear under regular shirts. She's 9.

Both DH and I think she's too young and not sure whose idea this was: her or her mother's.

Will read along....


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## rainbowasylum (Aug 25, 2013)

My daughter is a C cup these days- just turning 12. I do ask that she wear a bra if she is wearing a shirt that gaps at the neck or sides, and otherwise, I let her choose whether she wants to wear one or not.

I can't fathom forcing her to wear or not wear a bra on a regular basis. It is her body, not mine.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I would "make" my daughter dress relatively modestly. If she had developed breasts and chose not to wear a bra (or equivalent like a cami with a shelf), that would likely mean that I would insist on dark, loose shirts.

She prefers to wear a bra so it is moot here.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

What criteria makes someone "need" a bra?


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Interesting thread. My daughter is far too young as of yet, but I have already given some thought to this because I really don't like the way my mom handled it with me. I would not make her wear a bra because I think each person deserves to wear the undergarments they are comfortable with and I just can't see any positive consequences to forcing a bra on someone who isn't ready. I do think if she was wearing a shirt in which she'd be borderline indecent without a bra, I would probably keep her from leaving the house that way.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes I would. When I did my student teaching the nurse talked to the girl and made phone calls when a girl needed but wasn't wearing a bra and it was my teacher who talked to me about doing it as a child (same with my mom) so it could be something that you just have to reinforce once you get the call. I haven't had to reinforce this though but we did get the call about deodorant despite daily showers and shaved pits so it may have been covered in discussion then. I love school nurses!


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## oceanmamafarmer (Aug 24, 2013)

I am almost 30 years old, a mother, and literally do not own any bras (ok, one cotton-only sports bra for nursing)... Talk to your daughter about bras as she develops? Sure, just like hygiene and deoderant and all that... "Make" her? Absolutely not... I just can't imagine forcing that kind of decision about my daughter's personal body on her.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Mine asked me to take her bra shopping well before she needed one, as she wanted to go with me rather than her stepmom (who had indicated that it was time....). No big. We went, had fun, went out to lunch. At 19? She's a C-cup, and an athlete. And prefers to wear a bra of some type. Sports bra for sports and hanging out, a "pretty" bra for going out. I think it's appropriate.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Not an issue for us as my girls want to wear them. I got my older dd1 some training bras/bralettes when she was in 3rd grade (9) and going through a hard time with some girl drama. Some of the other girls in her class were wearing them (and needing to). Her little sister (6 at the time) wanted some too and I put her off with some camis for a year or two, but after a year or two I did let both of them wear some cotton non-padded ones whenever they wanted to. I don't see anything wrong with a 9 yr old having a simple basic unpadded cotton bra to wear under her clothes if she wants to. I would not be in favor of a padded bra at that age, but now that dd1 is age 12 and developing more I am okay with it because growing boobs can be a little ouchy at times. I would not "make" my kids wear a bra, but I would suggest to them that certain shirts might look better w/ a bra underneath. Dd1 really liked this new unicorn shirt she got, but it's black and that slub fabric which is a little bit sheer in places. Dd1 really wanted to get a skin tone bra to wear under it, so we did. She didn't want people to be able to see her bra, but really wanted a bra under the thin fabric.

I remember not wanting to wear one in 6th grade when I was beginning to need one, but by the time I got to 7th grade everyone was wearing them and I was too.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

No. For years I often went bra-less myself. DD likes wearing a bra though. More than I did at the same age, but I was quite flat so I could never find bras that I liked at that age. I did take her to a specialty shop a couple of years ago and she's gone through the fitting process, so she knows about proper sizing. She likes shopping for pretty bras. We have fun going to Victoria's Secret and other shops. It's a mother-daughter bonding thing.


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## neptunemama (Jun 20, 2005)

Like beanma, I've never made my dds wear a bra but I have pointed out that certain shirts are too sheer on their own and they should wear a bra or tank top underneath.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

No, I wouldn't make my daughter wear a bra. I wouldn't make my son wear one either. I regularly go bra-less myself, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me to make one of my kids wear one anyways. Bras can increase comfort under certain circumstances, but they can also be uncomfortable and distracting to wear.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> Yes I would. When I did my student teaching the nurse talked to the girl and made phone calls when a girl needed but wasn't wearing a bra and it was my teacher who talked to me about doing it as a child (same with my mom) so it could be something that you just have to reinforce once you get the call. I haven't had to reinforce this though but we did get the call about deodorant despite daily showers and shaved pits so it may have been covered in discussion then. I love school nurses!


I would have a problem with a school nurse commenting on my kid's underwear, and then trying to dictate about it. If one of my kids was wearing a bra as a top, with nothing over it, then fine, but trying to dictate what my clothed child wears underneath their clothes is creepy and inappropriate.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't see the nurse or teacher talks as a big deal. I am glad they do it really because it helped me a lot. Wearing a bra helped decrease the negative attention I got from the moms who were horrified by my early and obvious development. Strangely the bra helped me feel more confident because the bouncing had been uncomfortable and made me very self conscious.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

No one should dictate whether a child even wears underwear, barring health issues. I have known dads who insist their daughters wear a bra, and that is just creepy to me. School faculty getting involved in underwear...a HUGE no-no. I wish bras weren't an issue in society. I hate wearing one but I am pretty floppy/bouncy and it feels physically awkward if I am just hanging loose in certain shirts.


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## delightedbutterfly (Oct 5, 2006)

I needed one physcially far before I ever got one. I only wish my mom had taken me sooner.

For me it will depend on their health. My health would have benefitted from having a proper supportive bra around 9-10. My DD? It's not even an issue as of yet, even though I'm expecting early puberty with my children, I'm hoping that it will be a little later than me. But if they have a significant need, then yes for the health of their back, breasts and body I will insist (but probably not have to), I was a full B in grade four and a full C in grade 5, and it was sudden!


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Definitely not. And I pity the school nurse who calls me about my child wearing *antiperspirant* (which IMO is really what is expected). I will tell her that *I* have a little 'Secret' for her: It is a drug, it is labeled as an OTC drug and no one in my family will be coating their underarms with Aluminum Chlorohydrate to prop up US prudishness.

My son actually prefers not to wear underwear to school and I don't really see why exactly he should have to . . . There is no situation in which anyone should be in his pants.

I find the idea that MOTHERS would be upset about the breasts of a developing child more than reprehensible and just speaks to the incredible breast obsession/envy in our culture that drives the billion dollar silicone implant industry.

As a woman who is well endowed, I say step right off the nursies of other women. If they are bigger than yours, well maybe you have better hair or something. Just appreciate what another woman has and be done with it, we are all blessed with something.

I am definitely someone who thinks underwire and padded & push up bras are WAY more offensive than no bra @ all.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dinahx*
> 
> I find the idea that MOTHERS would be upset about the breasts of a developing child more than reprehensible and just speaks to the incredible breast obsession/envy in our culture that drives the billion dollar silicone implant industry.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

It seems to me that probably most girls want to wear a bra before or around the time that they're starting to be physically uncomfortable without one. The situation with a girl who is experiencing physical issues (as opposed to social) due to not wearing a bra, and yet she doesn't want to wear one as opposed to her parent not wanting to get her one, seems comparatively rare. But if you do happen to have that kid who has back/shoulder pain from large breasts and yet stubbornly doesn't want to wear a bra, and you discuss with her the benefits of a bra and how a properly-fitting one will help her feel more comfortable, and she still stubbornly doesn't want to wear one, then I just don't see where pushing it on her is going to accomplish anything constructive. She'll either take it off the first chance she gets, or wear it and seethe at you. As for deodorant, assuming she is bathing regularly and her clothes are reasonably clean, that also sounds like a social issue rather than a physical one, but I am not opposed to the nurse pointing out such an issue to parents, who may legitimately not have realized it. The parent can then decide how to proceed.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Whether or not to wear a bra is their choice.

I have 2 girls - 14 and almost 11.

The 14 year old always wears a bra, and enjoys getting pretty ones.

The 11 year old does have small breasts, but rarely wears a bra. She does have a couple of camisole type ones she picked out. Once in a blue moon I will let her know that a shirt is a little see-through (or is in some other way immodest) if we are leaving the house and ask her to put on a bra or change tops - but that is pretty rare.

I was pretty resistant to wearing a bra when I started to develop in grade 6. I was not amused at going through puberty - and somewhat in denial. I do remember a couple of kids commenting on my lack of bra, and it was embarrassing, but honestly, I think it would have been more damaging if my mom insisted I wear a bra. i just wasn't ready. This changed - of course - and I started wearing a bra pretty consistantly from about grade 7 onwards. Nowadays, I wear a bra about 75% of the time. I do not find bras all that comfortable, so I do go without sometimes.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

When I was 12, the school nurse yelled at me for not wearing a bra. I didn't feel any need for one at the time before she mentioned it. In hindsight, she didn't tell me about it because of my chest size- she was pissed off because it made the scoliosis testing more difficult for her. Rather than being sympathetic that I'd forgotten they were testing that day and had meant to wear my swimsuit under my shirt like I'd done every year beforehand, instead she decided to yell at me while I was half-naked. I basically left the room in tears and immediately got a bra just out of shame. I was never able to find comfortable bras, I always hated the way they made my clothes look, I don't know if I ever would have decided to wear them if left to my own devices- and don't see anything wrong with that- but it sure would have been nice for my decision to have been based on genuine interest rather than shame!

(If a school nurse really feels this is an issue that needs to be addressed: my opinion is that they should call the parents and leave it to them to handle. It is not the nurse's child, it is not the nurse's place to tell a child what they should or should not wear.)

If a doctor told me that my kid had to wear a bra, I'd address the medical concerns and try to find a solution that's most comfortable. Beyond that, I'll only raise concerns about modesty and otherwise leave the timing up to my children. My biggest concern is how to make it clear that they're free to get a bra whenever they're ready without coming off as pressuring them into one. If it seems like they may need one but aren't asking, I'm not sure how to make sure they aren't asking out of genuine disinterest rather than out of discomfort about raising the subject.


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Sure, there are situations were I would. I force my son to wear a cup when he spars in karate (well, I used to "make" him when he was little... now he gets why one wants to do that lol.) My daughter is expected to wear a bra in productions (or a nude leotard in some cases) where it's a big distraction to the audience to have a lot of movement... or changes the line of a costume.... particularly period pieces. I've never had to force her though. On a normal day? No, wouldn't bug me but certain activities, support is a really good idea. Maybe a well-endowed runner or tennis player.

I did encourage her to wear a cami in 6th grade even though she didn't need one. I knew she'd go into the P.E. locker room and feel particularly naked and very likely to be the only girl without one (she was 10 and flat as a pancake.) However, she chose not to and I didn't push it. In a week, I noticed she was wearing them to school for the locker room reason. She didn't really wear them outside of school until 8th grade when she actually started having reason for it.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

No. (Old hippy mom here.) I often go braless (with a 38 C body) and I don't feel bras are absolutely necessary. I only wear them when I am seeing clients or going out to dinner or a party and need to make my clothes fit better.

All my girls asked for bras fairly young, and two developed fairly young. My girls wear bras to bed, which I don't understand, but it's their bodies and they do their own laundry, so it's their choice.









However, I have had to insist they wear deodorant. Asperger kids sometimes need some prompting, but then eventually they get it and don't need any help and just do these kinds of things on their own.


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## Voondrop (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh, how I remember the Battle of the Bra. My step mother took me aside & said if I was going to wear a sweater around dad, I needed to wear a bra. Looking back, I don't think of it as creepy. Our culture does sexualize breasts & dad was distressed at seeing me w/ sexual traits. I think it's more of a nipple factor than curves as I was never more than a smallish B. My mom did force me & locked me in her room until I put on the bra she had purchased when I was 11. It was horrifying & shaming, I remember distinctly being shoved into puberty. I still played w/ dolls & was the only cousin to get a huge pack of makeup at Christmas as opposed to a toy & no one understood why I cried. W/ 3 daughters now I'll probably follow their lead, but modesty is important in our house. My oldest girl is 5 so likely if it's an issue we'll knit some trendy vests.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

It must have been terrible to be shamed that way. So sad. I'm sorry you had to go through that.









IMO, "modesty" means different things to different people. As I frequently don't wear a bra, I don't think the slight outline of a nipple nor the normal curve of a breast to be sexual. What other people think, as I see it, is their issue not mine to have to wear things I feel physically uncomfortable about. (When you have fairly large breasts bras can actually cause pain. I'm a 5 ft woman, petite, with a 38 C almost D cup. Most underwire bras HURT me if I wear them too long and I can't go without an underwire because the weight of my breasts will work their way under the band of the breast without a wire. Bras without underwires don't make me look any different than simply not wearing a bra. So I frequently go braless.)

I don't let my younger girls wear inappropriate clothes (and most of mine never wanted to anyway) *but I don't think women should bear the brunt of the misconception that ALL men are thinking about sex (ostensibly with them ) ALL the time* *and it's OUR responsibility to stop them.* Men don't walk around with jock straps on, and it makes sense why.

I would never force a child to wear a bra (what an awful experience it must have been, and I wonder if it made you feel ashamed of your natural beautiful female body!) From where I sit, too much which is often seen as "modesty" is actually internalized shame. I agree that young women shouldn't wear strapless tops or shorts where their butt cheeks stick out the bottom or clothes that say inappropriate things (we've all seen 6 year olds with shorts or tops that say "Juicy" or "Sexy" or some other inappropriate sexual message.) But, I feel the natural curves of a female body are natural and beautiful and should not be hidden from the world.

As with most things, your mileage may vary.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Once I was harassed @ work by some co-workers for coming to work without a bra. My wise Boss said 'why did we bother burning our bras in the 1960s if women are still acting like this?' and she said 'I would be much more concerned if you were wearing a padded, push up bra to work'. She also said 'men set up the social code & women enforce it on each other.' (That is a generalization, obviously, but I think partly true). Bras don't automatically equal modesty, especially the varieties on the market today.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

A girl should have the option of wearing a bra if she wants to, but she should never be coerced into it. How horrible to hear about school nurses trying to crawl into our children's pants like that! It's a personal choice and should be made by the person herself. It's nobody else's business!

That said, my 13yo definitely prefers wearing a bra to school because all the other girls wear them and she doesn't want to be the only one showing her bare breasts when she has to change for gym class.

I like going braless at home, and I'm a G-cup, but I prefer wearing bras when I go out, not because of modesty, but because my breasts hang down really low now and the bra gives me more of a shape. Young girls, in contrast, have a shape whether they wear a bra or not.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes, I would make my daughter wear a bra if she needed to even if she didn't want to.

I had my daughter start wearing one as soon as she started developing. I think she was about 10. She wasn't getting boobs, per se, but her nipples were starting to poke out and show. The way they make shirts nowadays, as well, t-shirts are so paper thin you can see right through them.

I try not to buy those shirts, but sometimes it doesn't matter what you wear, you're going to see a girl's nipples.

So I got her some sports bras, just so people would not see her nipples through her shirts.

We lived in a bad part of town and I did not want some perv to notice and maybe molest her.

I know, we would all like to live in a world where we shouldn't have to worry about these things, but we do.

At her age she would not know how to deal some grown man who might say some lewd comment to her

or worse try to rape her, and I would rather her wear a bra than attract the attention of some pervert.

Granted, she could be wearing a burka and still be attacked, but I'm not going to increase the odds of her getting

unwanted attention.

And I'm not saying women that don't wear bras are asking to be raped, I'm just saying a preteen girl does not know how to handle

the attention a more experienced, older woman would know how to handle.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

My daughter is far away from this, being only 3. But I'd hope to make it a nice sort of experience, (like her first period), a type of rite of passage as she develops breasts (growing up knowing how wonderful and amazing breasts are), and make sure she gets ones that fit properly and are comfy. I developed late age 14. She will also be homeschooled though so not as likely to get teased if she doesn't wear one or does early.


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## lilitchka (Jan 19, 2012)

OK, I am 32y.o. and I didn,t know that people wear bras for modesty!

I always thaught it was for comfort! if you have huge breasts. I got to D cup at age 15, and baught myself my first bras with my part-time job money, because I was getting not very comfortable.

well, now I know what bras are really for! it explains why my flat chested friends wear bras!


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> Yes, I would make my daughter wear a bra if she needed to even if she didn't want to.
> 
> ...


I understand your concern for your dd's safety. I think all of us want our children safe from assault. But, as you briefly alluded to, the way a woman looks is not why women are assaulted. Rape is not about "male lust" but it is about the need for some (not all by far) men to harm, humiliate, shame and punish women. Women in their 70s get raped, little babies and toddlers get raped, it's terrible, but no one has ever been raped due to whether her nipples were poking through her shirt or not. That's been proven to NOT be the way the mind of a molester or rapist works.

I agree with you about not wanting undo attention on your daughter, but if heaven forbid a child was assaulted, I would never want her to think anything she did, said, wore or how she looked was a factor in the assault. Women have been blamed for being victimized for thousands of years, I think we are past that now. Victims should NEVER be blamed, and when we pass on the message, "Someone might rape you if you look too attractive or 'sexy'." IF that girl would then been assaulted she might remember being told that and carry the shame that was NOT hers for a lifetime. I doubt any mother wants to pass that toxic message on to her innocent daughter.

Rape occurs because someone wants to hurt and humiliate and dominate an other person. Rape does not occur because of what someone is wearing nor does what a woman is wearing "increase the odds" of being raped. This has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. I think, as modern educated women we can all agree on that. Sending the message to our daughters that they even might have a hand in their own assault is harmful, and in the end does nothing to actually decrease the incidence of rape by a single woman.

I think we can all agree on that, no mileage needed.


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## Voondrop (Oct 31, 2012)

MaggieLC, I'm not sure what to think on that. It's kind & appreciated. In my head you are right but in an idealistic fantasy world. Based solely on my own observations the studies are wrong. I joined the army when I was 18 & lived in a barracks w/ 200 other guys (1 female for every 10). Maybe it's just the military culture, but guys, at least young ones, really do think about sex every time they see you, & are vocal about it. The girls who did wear strappy cami's, short skirts (back in 2000 styles) pretty much w/out exception were sexually exploited. Alcohol had a lot to do w/ it, but the respected girls were the ones who covered up. By that I mean jeans & a t shirt, nothing burqua-ish. They'd opt to leave, usually as single moms from playing like the guys & if they ever dared to call rape on someone they didn't advance in their careers. And there were a number of them.

I'm in my 30's now, but those 4 years probably did more to shape what I wear now than anything growing up. I nurse openly & frequently; I'm not sure if my oldest (7yr) boy or any of my girls have an idea of breasts being sexual. They are a very necessary functioning part & belong to baby. I promote that unflaggingly. BUT no cleavage or nips of mine show out of the house either. I know where the male psyche goes & have heard from a huge cross-section of states & cultures. American men are trained to be polite & check you out when you're not looking. Men in other countries don't have that conditioning & seeing their reaction to a jeans & tshirt combo was an eye-opener. Men are men are men are men. I've come to accept that that's just how they're wired.

I will follow my daughter's lead but looking back, though it was shaming I can see how it was also protective. We also lived in a bad part of town where needles & used condoms were frequently found under the stairs & in the basement of the apartment buildings. The bra I get, the unwanted make-up, I don't. All I can do is to promote the naturalness of the breast which I do by nursing 24 hours a day. Sigh. Well, it seems that way, anyways.


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## Rose-up (Feb 7, 2006)

My oldest is 10.5yo and has had bralets in her drawer for at least a year. She asked (begged, really) for them and wears them at her discretion. Just in the last several months she has started to develop at all, so she certainly doesnt need the support of a bra but she has said that some days she appreciated the protection from shirt friction. I cant imagine ever thinking I should force her to wear a bra, but there have been times when I've asked her to please either put on a bra/tank or to choose another shirt because of gaping or thin material. When shopping for new clothes, I have no problem pointing out if a certain top will need to have something under it and she can choose if she is willing to accept those terms or not. I dont think she has felt shamed or embarassed by my approach, she seems pretty comfortable in her skin and has so far accepted the body changes of early puberty in stride.

I dont remember when or how bras were introduced to me. I do remember as a teen my mom being adament that a bra strap never show, but she was even less pleased when i complied by not wearing one at all, lol. As an adult I seem to go through phases of wearing them or not. I never wear ones with wires, though, those suckers are crazy uncomfortable.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

Yeah, I wish we lived in a world where we were not judged by our outward appearances, but unfortunately we are.

I would never tell my daughter she has to wear a bra because some perv might attack her.

My biggest concern is she not having the emotional maturity to deal with some guy who sees her walking home from school. We are grown women, and if we don't want to wear a bra we have the backbone to tell someone to F off if they don't like it.

But my thing is a 10, 12, even 14 year old girl does not know how to handle that kind of attention from grown men. She would not know what to say if some guy were to start making comments to her about her breasts. Heck, what he might say to her would be far more hurtful, damaging and shameful than any shame she might feel from wearing a bra.

That's why I had my daughter start wearing a bra. I never said anything to her like okay, hon, you have to start wearing a bra so some perv does not attack you, or you

know it will be your fault if you get raped because you didn't wear a bra. Of course I wouldn't say that to her, or even imply that.

However, I did explain to her that she is starting to develop and she needed to start wearing one for modesty's sake.

And yeah, I think women should wear bras because I do not want to see another woman's nipples. There was one woman at work who wore unpadded bras so you could see her nipples through her shirt. Geesh, I don't want to see your nipples any more than you want to see my butt crack. LOL.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> But my thing is a 10, 12, even 14 year old girl does not know how to handle that kind of attention from grown men. She would not know what to say if some guy were to start making comments to her about her breasts. Heck, what he might say to her would be far more hurtful, damaging and shameful than any shame she might feel from wearing a bra.


While I remember a few juvenile comments in the puberty years from equally pre-teen and teen boys, I have never really had random men comment on my breasts. Ever. Do they look? Who knows - I am kind of oblivious. I am sure some do - but looking is not typically a giant deal. I look at men (and women) occasionally, too. I don't hit on them, I don't stare them up and down - but people are sexual beings and do find others attractive. I don't think wearing or not wearing a bra prevents any of this, btw.

Oh, wait, I did have a random drunk stranger tell me I had nice breasts (not the word he used) at one point. I was wearing a bra.


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

My daughter started developing at 8, and we got her some comfortable, bra-like tops, just to get her used to them. It's her choice now, at age 9.5, whether she wants to wear a bra or not, but we talk honestly about how others might react to her nipples showing in an obvious way. Whether we like it or not, this is the world we live in. So she gets to make a choice, but hopefully, it's an informed choice. She's good about looking at an outfit and deciding how loose fitting it is and whether or not she would prefer to wear a bra. Same thing with deodorant. It doesn't bother her to be smelly, but the fact is, if she goes to school and has armpit odor, she will be teased. So we talk about social norms, and I got her some non-toxic crystal deodorant that works well. We've had similar conversations about shaving, when it comes time for that.

I don't wear bras (I'm tiny on top) and I don't shave, so she has that as a role model. But I wore bras and shaved through my adolescence - as someone else noted, it's one thing to go against the grain as an adult, and it's another to make that choice as a teen. If she wants to, I'll support her, but if she wants to fit in, I understand that as well.

Just my two cents.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> Yeah, I wish we lived in a world where we were not judged by our outward appearances, but unfortunately we are.
> 
> ...


You're claiming that comments from random strangers are more damaging than being shamed by ones own parents? Interesting hypothesis.

If I thought either of my didn't have the skills to deal with people, I'd help them learn those skills instead of forcing them to wear padded underwear in the hopes that it would somehow shield them from the world. If they chose to wear a bra as a form of social camouflage (or for any other reason), then that's fine, but I'm not going to force them. And incidentally, I've heard of teenage boys taking the presence of a padded bra (the kind that hides your nipples) as a sign of promiscuity.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rachelsmama*
> 
> You're claiming that comments from random strangers are more damaging than being shamed by ones own parents? Interesting hypothesis.


I don't see how a mother saying to her daughter, "honey, it's time to wear a bra" is going to shame a girl.

HOW is that shaming? I don't see any difference between that and telling my daughter to wear a pad when she has her period.

Quote:


> If I thought either of my didn't have the skills to deal with people, I'd help them learn those skills instead of forcing them to wear padded underwear in the hopes that it would somehow shield them from the world.


And I would do both. I'd have them wear a bra AND teach them how to deal with people.

Seriously, I don't understand how wearing a bra would be embarrassing or shameful. Are you embarrassed or ashamed to wear panties? Come on people, it's a piece of clothing, not the scarlet letter A.

You know what's embarrassing? Having to wear bell bottoms when the style is tight legged jeans. You know what's embarrassing? Wearing no name brand sneakers when everyone else is wearing Nike's. Having to wear old, worn, torn clothing because that's all your parents can afford. THAT's what my mom did to me, and that was FAR more embarrassing than having to wear a piece of underwear.

And it's MORE obvious when you don't wear a bra than when you do wear one. I don't see how letting your boobs flop all over the place, nipples poking out would draw less attention than wearing a padded bra.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

I can sort of understand the thinking of protecting our girls. It's like, my girls walking through a bad part of town alone is not an invitation to be raped, but they are more likely to be. So I don't let them do that. I just don't see a bra that way. The worst thing with not wearing a bra is social...nipples poking out and bounciness.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> I don't see how a mother saying to her daughter, "honey, it's time to wear a bra" is going to shame a girl.
> 
> ...


Telling girls they have to wear extra layers of clothing over their breasts implies that their breasts are shameful. And if a parent forces their daughter to wear one against her will, then that implies that her body is so shameful it's worth a fight. (A girl choosing to wear a bra for comfort reasons is a lot different than a parent forcing the issue)

As for the difference in the amount of attention drawn to breasts in or out of bras, they're noticeable either way, and how their level of adornment is interpreted is up to the person noticing them. Some guys are going to find the jiggle enticing, some guys are going to find breasts carefully adorned in a bra enticing. Neither guy has an excuse for behaving badly, but neither strategy is going to remove the presence of the breasts.


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## amber3902 (Dec 2, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rachelsmama*
> 
> Telling girls they have to wear extra layers of clothing over their breasts implies that their breasts are shameful.


So I guess telling them they HAVE to wear extra layers of clothing over the top portion of their bodies i.e. coats is shameful as well.

I guess telling them they have to wear a hat when it's cold outside means they should be ashamed of their heads.

And I guess a layer of sunscreen implies that their white skin is shameful.

Oh I give up.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Voondrop*
> 
> MaggieLC, I'm not sure what to think on that. It's kind & appreciated. In my head you are right but in an idealistic fantasy world. Based solely on my own observations the studies are wrong. I joined the army when I was 18 & lived in a barracks w/ 200 other guys (1 female for every 10). Maybe it's just the military culture, but guys, at least young ones, really do think about sex every time they see you, & are vocal about it. The girls who did wear strappy cami's, short skirts (back in 2000 styles) pretty much w/out exception were sexually exploited. Alcohol had a lot to do w/ it, but the respected girls were the ones who covered up. By that I mean jeans & a t shirt, nothing burqua-ish. They'd opt to leave, usually as single moms from playing like the guys & if they ever dared to call rape on someone they didn't advance in their careers. And there were a number of them.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry you had that experience.







I've never been in the Military, but from what I have read, seen and heard from others the "culture" of sexuality in many parts of the military is twisted, broken and sick. It is NOT what happens in normal society. I think decades of ignoring and even promoting inappropriate treatment of women in general is at the root of this deeply inbred sexism in the Military. Too many of my friends came out of the Military with twisted views of how society, sexually and otherwise, worked, simply because they were forced into an artificial environment with women treated terribly and the overwhelming idea that everyone is either an "enemy" or an "ally." With, from what I have seen, a helluva lot more "enemies" than "Allies" in most situations.

I'm proud of you for breastfeeding whenever your LOs need it, instead of letting the damage the Military did to your self esteem and the damage it did to your perception of what men are like stop you from doing what is best for your babies. Addressing what you experienced in the military: Most normal healthy men are simply NOT like that. I think the way the Military promotes and aggressively encourages Macho type thinking and acting, thus further twists the mind set of so many young men (and women) who sign up. It's a sick thing when I see the rapes and sexual assaults coming out of our Military, and how the women who were victimized were further victimized by the military courts and strongly encouraged not to press charges. IMO, it's a huge black mark on the military brass and something the Higher Ups have allowed for too long and need to do quite a bit of apologizing for and remedying for before the bulk of thinking civilians are going to change their mind about this most grievous of attitudes and actions. I'd blame the sexist background of the Military Industrial Complex before I'd blame ALL male people in our society! And, yes, I'd be angry if I were you, too. I am angry that this complex can cause such fear and unrealistic attitudes towards the opposite sex. It saddens me greatly. A LOT needs to be done to fix this debilitated system. Especially when we want young people coming out of the military to healthily re-enter civilian society and be able to function and form healthy relationships for the rest of their lives.

I can tell you, I've lived in regular non-military society my entire life (all 51 years of it) and I know it can be hard to realize our individual experiences may not be how the entire world acts, feels and thinks. There are myriad studies of the minds of predators and rapists, how women look and dress have ABSOLUTELY NO impact on who gets raped. As I said before, old women are raped, little babies are raped, boys get raped. Sexuality is really not the main point of rape; aggression, hatred, "teaching a lesson," humiliation and harm ARE the main reasons people rape.

Continuing to think so only promotes the idea that women and girls who get raped could have somehow "prevented it" and that it was at least in part "their fault" by how they looked, what they wore, something they said, where they went etc. Women are NOT responsible for when a small proportion of men made BAD choices! I'm sure you wouldn't want your own daughters to think if heaven forbid they were ever assaulted, that what they wore or didn't wear in any way CAUSED the assault. Children internalize a lot of messages we send to them and we need to let our girls know that most men are kind, beautiful, loving people and only a small minority of men want to harm. Allowing a young girl to internalize a sexist message such as "all men are pigs and rapists so YOU have to be responsible for what they might do to your body" will only harm her future relationships with men and harm her and her thought formation overall.

I'm sure you don't want that kind of internalized message for your girls. I know I don't.

I hope you can find some peace for what was done to you in past.







I'm sorry you had to suffer through such a humiliating, hate filled, aggressive environment. I'm sorry that anyone is treated like that and our Military should expect better behavior of its soldiers than to simply let these types of actions and attitudes go unaddressed.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> So I guess telling them they HAVE to wear extra layers of clothing over the top portion of their bodies i.e. coats is shameful as well.
> 
> ...


There's a world of difference between saying "It's cold out, better put on a coat and hat", and "You need to wear a bra because you have breasts". Saying to a girl that she has to wear a bra is more equivalent to saying she has to wear a veil whenever she goes outside than to saying she has to wear a hat if it's cold out.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amber3902*
> 
> So I guess telling them they HAVE to wear extra layers of clothing over the top portion of their bodies i.e. coats is shameful as well.
> 
> ...


It really isn't just another piece of clothing, though. If it were, we would not be having this conversation







.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

I have to wonder if some of y'all have seen modern bras. IDK where you would buy a magical sexual harassment shield, but the purpose of a BRA is to 'lift & separate & sometimes falsify/enhance'. Hence the term 'push up bra'? Where is the data that men are likely to be driven WILD by breasts that are not lifted & separated, but breasts that are enhanced by underwire & padding are immune to comments?

Someone needs to send a memo to Victoria that her real purpose is to hide & shield & keep breasts 'secret' because I can tell you right now, she doesn't know that.

I am over 30, have been sporting 34Ds since HS & have never had a clue that I am actually supposed to be padding them, for an extra layer of nipple hiding! My mom always told me that women wear padded bras to make their breasts appear larger.


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## MaggieLC (Sep 2, 2013)

You make a great point, Dinah. But, somehow I think the "bras prevent rape" crowd isn't shopping at Victoria's Secret for their 9 year old daughters who are shamefully growing breasts.

When I was young, women who were "well endowed" wore what used to be called "reduction bras." They actually made the breasts look smaller by, I guess, crushing them into the chest wall. Even as a young child I never understood that at all. Why would someone wear one of these? I kinda understand now. I don't agree with it, but twisted attitudes about sex and sexuality are so prevalent that I understand.

I don't know if these are still made, but if you get a chance, there's a video that shows some tribal women in parts of Africa using a process called "breast ironing." They take young girls when they start to develop and use a heated wooden paddle to crush the developing breast "to prevent rape." It's NEVER been shown to prevent rape one iota, and women who are subjected to this treatment end up with stunted milk supplies, chronic mastitis, scar tissue and often chronic pain and scarring.

Because, in most cases, men do the raping and women get raped, it's hard for some to realize that not all men are rapists, not all women get raped or that somehow the truth is NOTHING will stop a rapist from harming, humiliating, dominating and hurting whomever he chooses. Nothing. Certainly not a training bra.







The sight of the outline of a nipple never cause a rape. (That should be on a T Shirt or something....)


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I think the bra/rape discussion is really a red herring and shouldn't be the big issue in the decision for a girl to wear a bra. It's far more likely that a girl will get some remarks, looks, teasing from her peers (both girls and boys) over bras, than have to deal with a potential rapist.

I would encourage my child to appropriately cover up (either with a bra or a cami) if her shirt/dress is thin/sheer. I would also encourage her to wash her hair if it's greasy. I'd encourage my son (if I had one) to wear deodorant if he was stinky (though not the smelly kind like Axe







). I wouldn't "make" my child do something like this, but it's part of dealing with puberty. We get smelly and hairy and grow breasts or facial hair as we go through it. It's part of a parent's job to let the kids know what the options are out there and how some people will view them. No, you don't have to wear deodorant or brush your teeth, but if your armpits stink and your breath smells you may find that no one wants to sit with you at lunch. If your hair is greasy and you haven't washed it then people may make fun of you. If your shirt is thin and your developing breasts are obvious other people may notice and say something.

My kids are shy and modest by nature about their bodies and would be mortified if anyone noticed so if I point out that I think a shirt could use something underneath they're not shamed by me saying that. They're grateful they didn't go around in public like that. My dd1 has a little teeny dress that she can still fit in and likes to wear as sort of a tunic with leggings underneath. The other day she had it on with shorts underneath, but you couldn't see the shorts. I pointed out that it looked like she wasn't wearing any pants and she immediately decided to go change.

I'd tell 'em if they had a piece of spinach on their teeth, too. I don't come right out and say, "Hey I can see your nipples through that shirt" (instant mortification







), but I will say, "that fabric is a little thin, you want to put something on underneath that shirt?"

And ftr, I don't wear padded bras and hate them. I also don't wear underwire and hate them. I'm about a 36C, fwiw. And I need some new bras and hate shopping for them, too!


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## Queenmom2006 (Nov 2, 2011)

I am all for living in a society where women's breasts are not shameful. When I was 10, I was rather well developed and only wore a bra when I felt like it, which was about 50% of the time. I was teased mercilessly with the accusation that I stuffed my bra. This was because (I suppose) my chest looked different with a bra than without. I do not always wear a bra now.... but when I do I wear a tank top under light colored clothes. Would I make my child wear a bra? No. But this issue is not black and white. The parent who is suggesting she would insist that her daughter wear a bra is just seeing the world through different experiences than yours.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

My daughter is 5, so I haven't crossed this bridge yet.

I think I would offer her the opportunity to wear bra's, probably comfortable sports bra's or t-shirt bra's but not force it. I like to wear a bra, but a lot of women don't and that is really their choice. I have never been offended by the visual of someone else choosing not to wear a bra, and if a guy is gawking at a young ladies chest...seems like his disgusting issue. Should I really force my daughter to wear something that she doesn't want to wear just because men are pigs? We will let her be free to choose, and try to shelter her from pigs. When she gets older, she will choose who she wants to be around. Hopefully she chooses wisely.

Bra's are a choice. It is not my fault or my daughters if people are pigs. Or if they are offended by our breasts.


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## sillygrl (Feb 10, 2008)

My daughter is not even 2 yet  However, this is an interesting topic. I don't see myself forcing her to wear a bra, just like I don't tell my three boys what type of underwear (or even *if* they wear underwear) to use. My boys are all big enough, I don't feel the need to check on them when they get dressed anymore. Every now and then, someone will wear some boxer briefs that show a little longer than their shorts, and I'll give them a heads up. I would probably do the same with my daughter, but if she'd rather wear a cami or whatever, fine with me. Personally, I was super excited about getting my first bras, but I was always in a hurry to grow up, lol. I think if I notice she's starting to develop, mentioning that maybe she'd like to try one wouldn't hurt. I don't think it has to be something embarrassing or shameful. I do think I'd strongly encourage a larger girl to wear a sports bra during athletics, but being a larger girl myself, I don't know why anyone would want to go without during those times.

Personally, I only put one on when I'm going out.


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## BellyArtsMama (Jan 27, 2011)

I am reading this because I have a 5 month old daughter and some day the issue will come up. All I have for comparison is that sometimes I wore little cotton bras when I started developing a little bit in 4th grade, though not all the time, and wearing them full time by the time I was in 6th grade and had a full cup size. I didn't resist, nor can I remember whether my Mom said anything about it, but I know when she told me I was wearing too much makeup and hair spray that I put on more and more and more... I've destroyed most of the photos of that era! LOL! Anyway, my point is that when I felt my choice was being disrespected, I clung to it even more tightly and while I will try to guide and teach my daughter about certain rules of "social propriety", I will tread carefully and make sure my daughter feels respected. I do insist that my son wears pants outside here because our neighbors are close, but at my parents' farm where there aren't neighbors, he's free to roam as naked as he wants to be.

Narah/Kimberly

www.vinegarandglitter.com


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## Umm Ayoub (Sep 25, 2013)

When I was 9 years old I was a size c and disliked wearing bras but my ma made me wear bras because without them I was showing nipple and breast . I have a 12 year old daugther and when she was 9 all her friends started wearing bras and she didn't need one but wanted one so I bought her some so she could be like all her friends and get use to how they fit now she actually needs one and is comfortable enough to go to the store and buy her own bras


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

In my own experience with my 13-year-old daughter, kids in the preteen and teen age group are almost always very eager to fit in with the social norms of their age groups. Since most teen girls are wearing bras, my experience has been that most preteen and teen girls are eager to start wearing them, too. So the whole question of "would you make her wear them?" seems like such a total and complete non-issue.

And no, I don't believe in making my daughter wear or not wear anything. I really and truly do trust her judgment. I actually started a thread here a short time ago about a couple of t-shirts dd liked that I thought might be offensive or send the wrong message about her -- and what I eventually decided to do was just let her know that I had this concern, but others may not see it the same way that I did, and I really did trust her and feel like she was able to make the best choice for herself. She has continued to wear them, hasn't gotten any negative feedback about them as far as I know, and she also wears them at school now, where there is a dress code and kids can be sent home for wearing anything seen as offensive by the staff, and the shirts haven't caused her any problems at school either.

I think we need to realize that most teens are waaay more sensitive to social norms than most 20 or 30-plus women are, especially those of us who are mothers and have dealt with public breastfeeding, children throwing tantrums in public and all that stuff that helps us transition into not being so wrapped up in what others think.


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## Tiffa (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't always wear a bra, so no I would not make my daughter. As long as she was dressed modest and presentably. I am very small chested though, so I don't feel like I always need to wear a bra, and I doubt my daughter will either. I kind of think bras are stupid.

Then again, as others have pointed out, most girls want to wear bras too early. And I do not think I would let my daughter wear one if she did not need one.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tiffa*
> 
> Then again, as others have pointed out, most girls want to wear bras too early. And I do not think I would let my daughter wear one if she did not need one.


You might want to reconsider this if she's going to be in a public school setting where all the girls will be changing together for gym class. Even for small-chested girls, I think a bra or some kind of undergarment that covers the breasts is a real need in this situation, because dd says there is literally no one showing their bare breasts in her locker room. I know breasts are nothing to be ashamed of, but in this kind of situation in a middle school setting, small-chested girls are just as likely as large-chested girls to feel self-conscious about having their developing breasts exposed to everyone.

And no, I wouldn't make my dd wear a bra if she felt okay about changing in front of the other girls without one -- I'm just saying that she doesn't, and I don't think most girls in her age-group would, either.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Public schools are really moving away from group nudity & I for one could not possibly be more excited about this much needed policy change. Mostly for the infant boys who will have their parents throw up one more reason for elective surgery, but also for the bullying & liability concerns.


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## onyxfire (Feb 14, 2013)

No one should be making a kid wear a bra unless you can see their areolas through the shirt, and the same should go for boys. That being said, my DD 12 always wears a bra and has since she was 10 (although there wasn't much there, she was self conscious about her nipples showing through her shirt and started wearing bralette/sports bra style bras until she was an A cup). She has padded, adult type bras now, which I am fine with (except she has no problem with the fabric showing with certain shirts, which I find completely tacky and ask her to change sometimes, just because its cute doesn't mean anyone needs to see more than the straps), so sometimes I wish she didn't wear a bra, lol. I think shirts are a lot thinner than they used to be and a camisole or another layer are necessary with many shirts if there is not a bra involved. I know my DD likes the security a padded bra offers, they don't bounce during gym/dance class which developing breasts are sensitive to, but if there isn't much there to bounce, I don't see the problem with not wearing one. I am only a B cup and don't wear one all the time if the top I'm wearing isn't sheer or thin.


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## Tiffa (Mar 24, 2013)

Mamma1_mama - That's a good point that I had never thought of. As a woman who has barely grown to a B cup while pregnant, and always been an A cup I totally agree that small chested girls are just as self-conscious as larger chested girls. And when I was first developing I wore a bra with a little padding because I didn't want anyone to see anything at all. If it's a question of security and comfort as apposed to vanity and (ooh I want boobs and I am nowhere close to having any!) then I would consider the situation and make an appropriate choice.

I kind of wonder what can be done to help daughters have a healthy and confident view of their bodies. It took me a long time to gain confidence in that area. I have no problem with my figure now, but it was a long time before I felt comfortable in a swim-suit or bra without padding. Now I have shifted to wishing I didn't even ever have to wear one. Haha!

My first idea would be to be a good example of it yourself. If someone gives you a compliment, gracefully accept it without acting like you don't deserve it (I heard a friend say this and have done it myself since. I think it has helped myself a lot). If you feel pretty about yourself sometimes, don't think it's a bad thing to say it.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Sixth grade gym class in a new school was my first exposure to public changing (aside from a few brief weeks of swimming in fifth grade, and I didn't see a lot of bras then). Whoa! I was in a sea of girls with bras. And I was the odd one out. And the other girls didn't at all mind commenting on it. I didn't "need" one physically, but psychologically I needed one! The closest I had was a cut-off camisole/bralette sort of thing with flowers on it. I wore that on gym days sometimes but got teased about the flowers! Oh, how I wish that my mother had had enough awareness of this issue to be willing to take me bra shopping at that time. She had no clue. I asked and she told me I didn't need one and that was the end of the discussion. Though she was willing to let me try bleaching the one that I had to see if the flowers would come out (and in hindsight, she had to know there was no way that was going to work). So my inner sixth-grade girl hasn't forgotten, and therefore when someday my daughter asks, we'll go bra shopping right away.

As for the question of how mom can bring up her openness to purchasing a bra without seeming to make her daughter feel pressured, I think a mention of it during planning of back-to-school shopping could work. "Hey, A, I started wearing (or wanting to wear) a bra when I was around your age. If that's something you're interested in, we can go shopping for one when we're out getting this other stuff. If not, no worries." I would also hope that we would have open enough communication that even if she turned that offer down, if she changed her mind a little later on, she could revisit the topic.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tiffa*
> 
> I kind of wonder what can be done to help daughters have a healthy and confident view of their bodies.


One thing that helped my DDs as they developed was being professional fitted. Having a bra that FITS is important (choosing to wear it is a separate issue). I highly recommend this, especially if you have a large busted daughter.

This is a wonderful article to share with your daughters, too.

http://www.stumptuous.com/why-dont-you-look-like-a-fitness-model


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

That's an awesome article, Linda. The hard part about communicating this with young girls, and even young women, is that many are a lot more focused on what their bodies look like than on what they can do. My ability to appreciate function has blossomed relatively late in life. I'm 49, and last November I weighed nearly 300 lbs., and all that extra weight was making it really hard for me to do many of the simple tasks of daily living, such as walking down a flight of stairs, carrying a load of laundry upstairs from the basement, and even getting up from a deep chair or couch.

Now I've lost about 100 lbs. and have been practicing a near-daily regimen of hula hooping and yoga, and the abilities I've regained, or in some cases gained for the first time, are huge! The extra energy and absence of pain are so wonderful, and I rejoice every time I notice I'm able to do something I couldn't do before. Learning to hula hoop a few months ago for the first time in my life was a huge milestone, as was becoming able to do the full camel pose in yoga a few days ago. It's also fun seeing how nice I look now in form-fitting clothes -- but ability and function are way more important to me than appearance now.

At 49, I find feeling good to be a whole lot more important than looking good -- and actually, when you feel great, it tends to make you look better, too. But at 19 or 29, I took basic physical health for granted. I wasn't rejoicing every time I was able to briskly bounce up a flight of stairs -- and of course, I wouldn't want my daughters or anyone else's daughters to go through the horrid experiences a young girl would have to go through to be able to feel "appreciative" about the ability to run up the stairs or jump up out of a chair without needing to grab the sides, or a table, and hoist herself up.

The perspective I now enjoy has evolved through a lifetime of experience. It would be great if more young girls started feeling joyful about the wonderful things their bodies are able to DO, and I hope we can create a culture where this happens a whole lot more frequently. But of course, this isn't really about bras. Sorry.


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## chuord (Dec 6, 2012)

I
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> It seems to me that probably most girls want to wear a bra before or around the time that they're starting to be physically uncomfortable without one. The situation with a girl who is experiencing physical issues (as opposed to social) due to not wearing a bra, and yet she doesn't want to wear one as opposed to her parent not wanting to get her one, seems comparatively rare. But if you do happen to have that kid who has back/shoulder pain from large breasts and yet stubbornly doesn't want to wear a bra, and you discuss with her the benefits of a bra and how a properly-fitting one will help her feel more comfortable, and she still stubbornly doesn't want to wear one, then I just don't see where pushing it on her is going to accomplish anything constructive. She'll either take it off the first chance she gets, or wear it and seethe at you. As for deodorant, assuming she is bathing regularly and her clothes are reasonably clean, that also sounds like a social issue rather than a physical one, but I am not opposed to the nurse pointing out such an issue to parents, who may legitimately not have realized it. The parent can then decide how to proceed.


I agree with this.
As a late bloomer in grade 8 I got to the stage where it hurt to do phys Ed and very embarassingly at the constant urging of my friends had to beg my mum to get me fitted... I was only an A, I spent most of my life a C (regardless of weight) when I ate more healthy fats I jumped up to a dd... I can't even imagine the pain of running without - or the damage that would be done to the tissue. I think if daughters know the possible damage then they can make their own conscious choice.
Re deodorant, of course the nurse is right to get involved, I've sat beside kids so stinky before I couldn't focus on what the teacher said... How is that fair? I agree with the no aluminium though, the crystal sticks work really well too. Btw for comfort I would have gladly stuck with my c cups, people who get boob jobs for mega size are gluttons for suffering.


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chuord*
> I've sat beside kids so stinky before I couldn't focus on what the teacher said... How is that fair? I agree with the no aluminium though, the crystal sticks work really well too.


the crystals are made of *alum*, which is short for *ammonium aluminum sulfate*. i get sooo tired of crystal deodorant manufacturers advertising their products as aluminum-free (and constantly running into people who have been misled), b/c not only are they not aluminum-free, this aluminum salt is the only ingredient in them (so, 100% concentration, instead of being just one of many other constituent ingredients). honestly, i've tried more deodorant/anti-perspirants than i can count at this point and have come to the grim conclusion that ONLY aluminum-based compounds actually work to stop odor for any lengthy period. tea tree oil products can work (some of them) but don't last. so, yeah, i stink sometimes. if people's noses were just used to the odor, it wouldn't be an issue. i have to increase my chances of developing breast cancer just to not offend other people's noses? that's not fair either. luckily no one has to sit next to me at a desk, though. i don't know what the answer is, except that we need to reclaim the right not to expose ourselves to aluminum, and people need to re-acclimate to the scent of armpit odor, b/c if everyone stinks all the time, everyone also stops being able to smell it. i bet my ideas on this are fairly fringe, but i think it's ridiculous to wear pink breast cancer awareness ribbons a few inches away from aluminum-slathered pits.

(sorry for the tangent!)


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

just thought i'd chime in with my experience. first of all, when kids were trying their hand at making sexualized comments when i was in late elementary school, they always went for butts, not boobs. not sure if that was just b/c i'm bootlicious







or if that was just the differing culture, or just the individuals i encountered who were trying their hands at that thing they didn't quite understand yet called flirtation (always tinged with a bit of mean-spirited teasing or sexual language they didn't know how to wield). b/c obviously around 6th grade, you can't just tell another kid you like their personality and can you hang out some time and get to know each other better, right? (seems so obvious that a 6th grader would not take this approach, which is so sad. one of the reasons i want to unschool my kid. i want them to defy these norms. blech, i hate some things about the mainstream society that currently surrounds us. there's just no reason i should have been aware of the fact that i had a "big butt" at age 8 (the first time i remember this incidentally very cute 12-yr-old boy commenting and subsequently grabbing), and that the older boys were "into" that. and thank god we haven't invented butt bras of any kind.)

but even though up to a certain point i got NO comments on my boobs (well, that is, my nipples, no boobs yet in 6th grade), from any of my classmates, "training bras" (as they were called) started trickling into the cooler kids' wardrobes, causing many of the rest of us to go home and beg mom to buy us one, to which some of our moms relented and others said no way. now i sorta wish she'd said no way. as soon as i started wearing one, THAT'S when i started getting comments. the cool kids were so ready to point out how stupid i was for wearing a training bra i obviously didn't need. i think that was worse than the left-out feeling the kids whose moms said no felt, b/c my inability to fit in was called to attention, and overtly made fun of. theirs was just ignored. (we didn't have to change in front of each other until 8th grade.)


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## alaskanmomma (May 25, 2011)

No. I got so embarrassed when my aunts, grandma, my dads female friends, etc. would point out I needed a bra, asked publicly if I was wearing one (or announce I needed to wear one...), etc. I was around 5th grade when this started and definitely wasnt a busty little girl.

It made me really self conscious. I'll let my daughters know what bras are and they can ask for one when they want, but I'll never FORCE them, or make it a big spectacle.


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## rainbownurse (Dec 19, 2012)

Aluminum doesn't cause breast cancer. The study that you're referring/inferring to showed that women with underarm hygiene were more likely to find breast cancer earlier because they were more familiar with what their breasts felt like. Under the armpit is an infamous place for breast cancer tumors to go un-noticed.

I'm not sure I would MAKE my daughter wear a bra, but I would talk to her about them, and if she was well endowed like me, her aunt, her grandmother and her great-grandmother, I'd encourage to wear one for health reasons.


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

i think it's unwise to pretend to be ahead of the research - no one knows the answer for sure about the link between breast cancer & aluminum. that's why it's still being so heavily researched. because the top minds in the field still believe there very well may be a link, and aren't ready to dismiss or definitively conclude what that link is.

per the following link,
"Clinical studies showing a disproportionately high incidence of breast cancer in the upper outer quadrant of the breast together with reports of genomic instability in outer quadrants of the breast provide supporting evidence for a role for locally applied cosmetic chemicals in the development of breast cancer. Aluminium is known to have a genotoxic profile, capable of causing both DNA alterations and epigenetic effects, and this would be consistent with a potential role in breast cancer if such effects occurred in breast cells."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16045991/?i=3

this is just one of the first results that comes up. similar papers and quotes to that effect are abundant. i'm certainly not throwing caution to the wind b/c someone (well-meaning though they may be) on a message board heard something different. cancer (and possibly even more so, treatment) is so much more brutal and devastating than you can ever imagine until you experience it firsthand or in a loved one. but once you do, you don't take risks like this. well, not me anyhow. cancer has taken far too big a toll on my family already, with many more awful and heartbreaking years to come.


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## rainbownurse (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm so very sorry cancer has taken such a toll on you and your loved ones. I can certainly respect that if there is a history, one would not take chances no matter how slim. I do, however, take offense to your assumption that I assume myself ahead of the research or that cancer has not touched my life in any way. My point was that people often make conclusions based on a correlation that is faulty.

as per the lit review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18829420/?i=2&from=/16045991/related

" After analysis of the available literature on the subject, no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis was identified and no validated hypothesis appears likely to open the way to interesting avenues of research."


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

they're still only saying "we don't have enough evidence yet", and they do know aluminum causes DNA mutations. it's safe to say the jury's still out on this one. i'm going with the precautionary principle here, and choosing the path least likely to cause harm to my health (w/ no ethical qualms b/c this path imposes no risk to anyone else's).


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## fayebond (Jun 16, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rachelsmama*
> 
> I would have a problem with a school nurse commenting on my kid's underwear, and then trying to dictate about it. If one of my kids was wearing a bra as a top, with nothing over it, then fine, but trying to dictate what my clothed child wears underneath their clothes is creepy and inappropriate.


ditto. I have no problem with a parent deciding thier child needs certain clothing items (coat, shoes, socks, all things we sometimes "make" kids wear when we feel its necessary in our state, theres lots of snow in winter!). Mine is too young to need one but eventually I would encourage it. I don't foresee it being a big problem, I was thrilled when my mom explained the functionality of certain underwear for running etc. But a school nurse? Needs her own life.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

idk because a neighbor took my grandmother to get her first bra because her parents (neglectful in other measures, too) were ignoring the necessity. I do think it takes a village. Just because the moms on this thread are attentive to their kids and have given thought to what they need and don't need and what they value as a family, doesn't mean that every parent is. There are going to be some kids who will benefit from the nurse or another school staff member saying something (not in a nasty way, as I know someone did upthread--I'm not in support of that). And for those parents who are already conscious of the issues, if the nurse calls they can just reply "Thanks for your concern, I've got it under control" and move along.


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## chuord (Dec 6, 2012)

Erigeron - love your perspective it's a great observation - as the people on here obviously care passionately about their kids, it's easy to forget that not all do - thank you


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

yeah, actually, good point. and genuinely hadn't occurred to me either. but i suppose there are probably as many examples of school nurses providing an extra pair of caring adult eyes where the parents are neglectful, as there are of the variety that rub us the wrong way ideologically. while the nurse mentioned would bug me, i guess in all likelihood she was probably doing it in a sincere effort to be helpful. not saying i wouldn't still give her a bit of a feminist lecture, though, if she called about my kiddo!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

About deodorant -- I can't claim to have extensively studied the topic, but my main concern is about antiperspirants, which actually block the flow of sweat (and any toxins the body is trying to get rid of) through the pores, and I think it can cause a high level of toxins to collect in the armpit area. There are a few deodorants that are just deodorants and don't clog the pores, but dh doesn't always manage to find those when he's out doing our shopping.

Since I work from home, my basic practice is just to bathe daily and not wear any deodorant. Then, when I exercise or any other time I sweat a lot, I get rid of a lot of toxins. On those rare occasions when I leave the house for several hours and feel like I might sweat a lot, I do wear deodorant, but I wash it off with soap and water after I get home.

I've talked with dd1 about the need to allow our pores to eliminate toxins, and I've suggested that she not wear any deodorant when at home or when out walking the dog around the neighborhood, to giver her body a chance to do this, but she doesn't seem too concerned about the health risks and is more concerned about not having any odor when she's at school. So, now that she is going to school every day rather than homeschooling, I think I do need to make sure we have an antiperspirant-free deodorant for her.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Sure: but know that if a deodorant does also contain aluminum (which 99% of those marketed to women in regular stores do), it can't actually be washed off: it is an OTC medication, which works cumulatively over time & is actually absorbed.

I don't have an issue with deodorant only @ any age, but I find that most everyone aside from dedicated hippie warriors is actually using antiperspirant. They even have 'clinical strength' now which actually just means 'extra aluminum'.


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## neycie (Jul 31, 2013)

I respect anyones choice to go braless, often do myself, and would not insist my daughter wear one. That said, we went to her 2nd grade musical last year, and there was a 7 year old girl doing a bouncy, enthusiastic solo dance routine on stage.
Well-developed, thin white blouse, bright lights, painful looking bounce. I cringed at the giggles and whispers in the audience and thinking that some of the dads may have found that an interesting sight on a girl so young. My own husband shook his head and elected to closely examine his program during her performance. So I don't know what I will do at that point....kids are really active and I would want everyone seeing her dancing and beautiful smile, not tittering at her body.


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## neycie (Jul 31, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaggieLC*
> 
> I understand your concern for your dd's safety. I think _all of us_ want our children safe from assault. But, as you briefly alluded to, the way a woman _looks_ is not why women are assaulted. Rape is not about "male lust" but it is about the need for some (not all by far) men to harm, humiliate, shame and punish women. Women in their 70s get raped, little babies and toddlers get raped, it's terrible, but no one has ever been raped due to whether her nipples were poking through her shirt or not. That's been proven to NOT be the way the mind of a molester or rapist works.
> 
> ...


I completely agree that rape is about violence, not sex or how a woman dresses. However, my own experience was that dressing sexually as a young girl did bring agressive attention (different from rape) that I was not prepared to handle. Guys assumed I was older and interested and were confused when I was not. It was not worth it. It SHOULD NOT be that way, but it is sometimes. Being young, it ended up negatively coloring my view of all men, because the only ones I was attracting were the horndogs.


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## Voondrop (Oct 31, 2012)

Not to hijack the thread any further into the anti-perspirant direction, but for any interested/ health conscience children, cider vinegar under your arms works great as a deoderant. I've also heard that lemon juice will work. The vinegary smell disappears as it dries & the acidity balances your ph. It's a lot healthier for your lymph nodes!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *filamentary*
> 
> the crystals are made of *alum*, which is short for *ammonium aluminum sulfate*. i get sooo tired of crystal deodorant manufacturers advertising their products as aluminum-free (and constantly running into people who have been misled), b/c not only are they not aluminum-free, this aluminum salt is the only ingredient in them (so, 100% concentration, instead of being just one of many other constituent ingredients).


Just wanted to thank you for this. I had no idea. I did my own research online and came to the same conclusion.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

It is actually Potassium Aluminum Sulfate tho. Not saying I think it is a great idea tho.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dinahx*
> 
> Sure: but know that if a deodorant does also contain aluminum (which 99% of those marketed to women in regular stores do), it can't actually be washed off: it is an OTC medication, which works cumulatively over time & is actually absorbed.
> 
> I don't have an issue with deodorant only @ any age, but I find that most everyone aside from dedicated hippie warriors is actually using antiperspirant. They even have 'clinical strength' now which actually just means 'extra aluminum'.


Yikes! I really like Voondrop's idea about the cider vinegar. I hope I can turn dd1 onto that!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

About bras and unwanted attention -- I'm seriously wondering if anyone's met a teen girl who actually wanted to go braless. As I've already said, dd1 has seen a bra as a real necessity since starting school and needing to change in the locker room for gym class. It seems really bizarre that anyone would have to "make" a young girl wear a bra in those kinds of situations. Most girls this age really are all about fitting into the social norms for their age group. Is anyone finding anything different with their own dd?


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> About bras and unwanted attention -- I'm seriously wondering if anyone's met a teen girl who actually wanted to go braless. As I've already said, dd1 has seen a bra as a real necessity since starting school and needing to change in the locker room for gym class. It seems really bizarre that anyone would have to "make" a young girl wear a bra in those kinds of situations. Most girls this age really are all about fitting into the social norms for their age group. *Is anyone finding anything different with their own dd?*


No. My 16 yo wouldn't dream of going braless.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

My 11yo is an (adult) A cup and wears a bra every day, by her choice.


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dinahx*
> 
> It is actually Potassium Aluminum Sulfate tho. Not saying I think it is a great idea tho.


ah, yes, that is the other one. salt crystal deodorants are one of those two aluminum salts, potassium aluminum sulfate or ammonium aluminum sulfate.

also, dinahx, lolz, dedicated hippie warrior!!! so that's what i am!


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## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

also, guys, WRT armpit odor control? i've been using "jungleman" with a pretty high success rate! tips: keep it in the fridge if it's warmer than 80 degrees indoors or else the stuff is sludgey & goes on way too thick (don't forget to roll it up to the correct height before you put it in the fridge, though, or you won't be able to); put it on immediately after washing pits (don't wait until you've begun sweating); it works best applied liberally, so ideally (esp if you have a ton of armpit hair like me) rub a ton of it all over (outside the hairy region as well) then use your hands to spread it out / rub it in until it is no longer visible. then you have to wash your hands, of course. a little bit of a hassle, but when i utilize it in this manner, it works really well (better when refrigeration isn't necessary, which is unfortunate, since those hottest months are when i most need it!). i'd say it lasts 4-6 hrs if you're an extremely heavy sweater like me. doesn't fully eliminate odor, but you don't get any of those sharp pungent smells, at all, and to me that's a huge success.

don't mean to be an advertisement for this particular brand, but the ingredients are cornstarch, palm oil, baking soda, and tea tree oil, and that's all. so i would have similar faith in any other product with just those ingredients & have even contemplated whipping up a homemade batch, but i'm just lazy enough to be willing to pay for the convenience of the stick. (actually i doubt the palm oil would be necessary in a home batch, or at least not much would be necessary, since i assume that's just used to make it a waxy solid & therefore able to be formed into a stick.)


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