# "Say you're sorry"



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Do you expect your children to say they are sorry when they have intentionally hurt another child?

If so, what purpose do you feel it serves? I am NOT in any way trying to sound sarcastic. I really want to hear your thoughts on saying they are sorry.

I personally don't tell them to say they are sorry. I might suggest they have something to say, but I don't expect an apology. Especially if what they did was intentional, then chances are that they aren't at all sorry.

Other side of the apology:

IF the other child who hurt your child (intentionally) is told to say "I'm sorry", do you feel like your child should say "That's O.K". ??

My friend's son is VERY VERY sensitive, so maybe this is partially him. But, he refuses to accept an apology if he feels it is insincere. (It's kinda funnY) He's six and will say "I appreciate your apology, but I do not accept it". It leaves the kids baffled. LOL


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Your son sounds great!

No, I don't believe in forcing kids to apologize. What's the point? If they're really sorry, they will either say it on their own or their actions will show it. If you have to force them to say it, chances are they're probably not sorry, in which case you're basically forcing them to lie. Not good.

Re: "That's okay," I kind of feel the same way. I don't like the idea of a child being made to say a particular phrase, regardless of whether it's true or not, just because that's what is expected of him/her.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

It's good for little kids to know that it is a convention to apologize. Otherwise, they don't know what to do if they regret doing something wrong.

Forcing apologies isn't the same thing as giving that information.


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## cravenab00 (May 25, 2005)

this is new to me. I DO tell my children they need to aplogize. I feel that if I dont that they will learn that hitting is ok.

it scares the crap out of me to think that a child would intentionally hurt someone and deliberatley not be sorry, to me this sounds sociopathic.

why should I not have my children say sorry?


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

Yes, I insist on apologies. Even if they aren't heartfelt, they are something that etiquette requires in our society. It's good manners to say it.

The "That's Okay" part though - no, we don't say that (as adults / parents) and don't ask our children to do so either.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

My brother and sil were here visiting a month ago and they CONSTANTLY demanded apologies of my neices (2 and 3). It drove me CRAZY! For my part, if 3-y-o dn accidentaly hurt 2-y-o dn (something that happened a lot) I would say something like, "oooh, it looks like I. is really sad/hurt/upset. Maybe there's something you could say to her/do to make her feel better." And she would perk up and run over and apologize and give her a hug immediately.

I liked this because it both directed dn's attention to her sister and let her figure out how to improve the situation, instead of dictating to her what SHE needed to do.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I don't make my child say anything. I wouldn't suggest that he apologize either, because he already does apologize when he hurts a child accidentally, and I would assume that if he doesn't say it, he's not sorry.

As for saying, "That's okay" in response to an apology, if another child is apologizing to my son and seems uncomfortable, I might smile and say, "That's okay." I would never require ds to say it.

Children learn manners and social etiquette through modelling. They don't need to be actively taught. Ds doesn't watch how I treat others, so much as he watches and imitates how I treat him.


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## FlyingPigs (Feb 20, 2005)

Not trying to criticize, but does making them say they're sorry actually make them FEEL sorry? Being forced to say words that one does not necessarily feel might perhaps encourage comfort with LYING more than it would discourage comfort with hurting someone intentionally.
Making tnem apologize doesn't make them understand that hitting isn't ok...it just makes them know that they will have to say certain words after they hurt someone, whether they feel sorry or not.
A sincere apology is one thing, a forced, insincere one is another.

I personally squirm when a child hurts my DS and the parents are trying to force the child to apologize. A mumbled "sorry" coerced from an insistent parent feels fake to everyone involved.

blessings,
Carrie


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FlyingPigs* 
Not trying to criticize, but does making them say they're sorry actually make them FEEL sorry? Being forced to say words that one does not necessarily feel might perhaps encourage comfort with LYING more than it would discourage comfort with hurting someone intentionally.
Making tnem apologize doesn't make them understand that hitting isn't ok...it just makes them know that they will have to say certain words after they hurt someone, whether they feel sorry or not.
A sincere apology is one thing, a forced, insincere one is another.

I personally squirm when a child hurts my DS and the parents are trying to force the child to apologize. A mumbled "sorry" coerced from an insistent parent feels fake to everyone involved.

blessings,
Carrie









:

Exactly the point I was trying to get across.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FlyingPigs* 
Not trying to criticize, but does making them say they're sorry actually make them FEEL sorry? Being forced to say words that one does not necessarily feel might perhaps encourage comfort with LYING more than it would discourage comfort with hurting someone intentionally.
Making tnem apologize doesn't make them understand that hitting isn't ok...it just makes them know that they will have to say certain words after they hurt someone, whether they feel sorry or not.
A sincere apology is one thing, a forced, insincere one is another.

I personally squirm when a child hurts my DS and the parents are trying to force the child to apologize. A mumbled "sorry" coerced from an insistent parent feels fake to everyone involved.

blessings,
Carrie









my thoughts exactly. I would never want to teach a child that 2 words can make everything go away, because they can't. I will, however, keep nurturing her empathy. She is still young, but when she hurts another child her first instinct is to comfort the child-this to me is so sincere. If, when she is older this changes, I would most likely appologize to the child on her behalf --giving words to their feelings "I am sorry dd hurt you, I bet that you feel upset right now" something like that. I would have a conversation with dd too to help her learn to give words to her feelings of frustration or whatever caused the behaviour.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I don't really see the point in trying to make a child say sorry (or please, or thank you). You can't really MAKE anyone say ANYTHING and it just sort of sets you up to stand there repeating yourself as your child gets more and more self concious and less and less likely to say whatever it is your asking for. And then either you have to give in or ...what? I don't know. When the time comes (still very small kiddo here) I will say *I* am sorry.

Quote:

IF the other child who hurt your child (intentionally) is told to say "I'm sorry", do you feel like your child should say "That's O.K". ??
How about, "Thank you?"

Quote:

My friend's son is VERY VERY sensitive, so maybe this is partially him. But, he refuses to accept an apology if he feels it is insincere. (It's kinda funnY) He's six and will say "I appreciate your apology, but I do not accept it". It leaves the kids baffled. LOL
That seems rude. Someone has humbled themselves enough to give an apology (even an insincere apology takes a little humbling) - to me, that's just rude. And if he's old enough to have thought of that himself (and isn't just repeating a line he's been told to say), he's old enough to understand why that's kinda just rubbing it in. Of course, this is easy to say when I'm not standing there trying to hold back a giggle







:


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizaBear* 
Yes, I insist on apologies. Even if they aren't heartfelt, they are something that etiquette requires in our society. It's good manners to say it.

The "That's Okay" part though - no, we don't say that (as adults / parents) and don't ask our children to do so either.

I totally agree with this. I see it as being a way for the child to understand that if you hurt someone you must make amends.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

No, I don't "make" them say sorry, I don't MAKE them do much of anything. I may ASK if they're sorry...but if they aren't, they aren't. They are entitled to their own feelings.


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## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

I usually just explain how it's not nice to hit and that's not how we make friends, etc, etc, etc. Sometimes I will ask, "Now what should you say?" And he'll say sorry or just run off and play. I don't care either way. Whatever he decides. I think he should say it out of respect but I wouldn't force him. As long as he knows that it was wrong, that's good enough.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizaBear* 
Yes, I insist on apologies. Even if they aren't heartfelt, they are something that etiquette requires in our society. It's good manners to say it.


Agreed. DH and I believe in teaching DS to apologize whenever he hurts someone. Intentional or not.

If he refuses to do it, we won't push him, but DH and I will apologize to the Parent and the child *on his behalf.*

Also, we will say to the child "are you okay?"

You have to be sure the child is *phsyically* okay.

Also, apologizing is making sure there is Peace and no confusion. Not apologizing just seems to keep air thick with tension.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I don't think that insisting they apologize will teach them to be truely sorrowful. But, I do think it teaches them a very important social convention. I don't believe these conventions are totally arbitrary. Yes, it is possible to say "thank you" or "I'm sorry" and not mean it. But, it's also possible to feel regretful or grateful and be embarrased to express it. So, I do encourage my kids to say those things.

At dd2's age, just over 2yo, I don't make a huge deal about it. I'll suggest to her that she say these things, very low-key for "please" and "thank you", with a little more insistance for "I'm sorry". But, I don't force the issue. I think reminding or suggesting an apology is a useful teaching tool at that age, but making it into an Issue isn't going to help us any.

For dd1, who's 4-1/2, I'm a little more insistant, though not as much as some parents, I think. I tell her, you're old enough to understand why these things are important. You understand that when you're hurt, the simple words, "I'm sorry" are the first step to your feeling better. If you want people to be courteous to you, you must be courteous to them. If you want them to continue to want to play with you, you need to be kind, and "I'm sorry" is kind.

I also want to make sure they understand that saying "I'm sorry" doesn't give them free reign to continue to hurt. I want them to understand that it's both a convention and something that needs to be heartfelt.

Intentional hurting is truely the only thing that I'm a stickler about. It wasn't much of an issue with dd1, who would occasionally hit or bite but not frequently. But dd2 seems to be a real fiend for it - and she has a preferred target for her aggression. Unfortunately, her big sister is picking up on her habits. I've really had to crack down on that. My solution is that any child who is being physically aggressive is removed from play and sits quietly for a few minutes. I guess you'd call it a time-out, though I'm really careful to make sure my kids know that it's not a removal of love, it's not a seperation from family, it's just a removal from the situation for a few minutes until they calm down and can play nicely. It's calm down time, and it's time for the kid who was the victim to recover and resume playing. It certainly isn't fair that the kid who did the hurting gets to continue playing while the kid who was hurt goes to cry for five minutes. Kids don't want to play with kids who attack them. It's not fair for the kid who's a victim to have to leave the game/toy/situation, so it's only logical to remove the aggressor.


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

I expect my children to say sorry~when they feel sorry. When my oldest would hit her little sister, my initial reaction would be "Say you're sorry!" but instead I say, "Hitting is not acceptable, you hurt your sister. " She would then cry, and run away- to which I would say, "Saying sorry means you want her to feel better and you won't do it again. When you are ready, please tell her that."
I lead by example. If I hurt my kids anyway- like raise my voice, I say I am very sorry and I hope they can forgive me. They respond with, "I'm sorry, too and I forgive you mommy."
They're so sweet.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

DS has a great sense of empathy, and he only acts in a manner that "calls for" an apology with other children with whom he is very comfortable, so it's been a blessing that I can work this out with close friends. This is what I've found works for us: if DS performs an action causing the other child distress, I will pull DS aside and explain that the other child is crying/upset because DS bit/kicked/whatever and it hurt the other child. Because he almost always feels empathy for the child, I ask him, "How does it make you feel when Other Child is crying?" He will reply, "Sad." And so I can then say, "When we hurt someone, sometimes it helps to say that we're sorry. Would you like to tell Other Child that you're sorry?" If he says no, I leave it, and I apologize on his behalf, but I don't force him to do it at 2 and 9 months, it's just too early for me to decide what to do if he doesn't genuinely feel badly, KWIM?

As for the flip side, we've decided that the most authentic response to "I'm sorry" from another child is not, "It's okay," because it's NOT okay to hit or kick or hurt, and I don't want DS to learn that, nor do I want him to feel like I'm asking him to accept the other child's behavior as okay, so we use, "I forgive you." When the other child says I'm sorry, I will say something like, "Henry, Other Child said he was sorry that he bit/kicked/whatever you. That means he feels sad that you were hurt. Are you ready to forgive him?" If he says no, again, I don't push, but I do sit with him until he's calmed down and we discuss what forgiveness is and within a minute or two, he's almost always feeling better and will spontaneously respond, "It's okay" or "I forgive you" to the other child.

My hope is that through this modeling, he will learn our beliefs that we all have a need to ask for forgiveness in life, from each other and from God, and that not forcing it nor making it a huge shaming issue will teach him gently that it's okay to make mistakes, and that it's important that we take responsibility for them and accept that we are never going to be perfect.

We're in the early stages of this, so take it for what it's worth.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I encourage my kids to "make it better" when they hurt someone. Usually this just means, for my kids, that they give a hug(their own response)and a kiss.Ds like to give a kiss as well,he is very affectionate!
I think with kids it is good to teach them that their actions won't go unchecked. That if they intentionally hurt someone, they need to set things right. I feel this is just basic manners.

i do not expect them to say"its ok" That is just weird.Because, you know, in many cases, everything is not all better all at once.


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

DD is 3. I do not force her to apologize. I was forced to apologize all the time as a child and it stopped meaning anything. Words without sincerity are pointless and insulting to the person who was hurt.

If DD hurts someone, accidentally or unintentionally, she must (and I will help her with this if necessary) check in with them. That means asking if they are OK. If they aren't, she asks what they need - an ice pack, a hug, some space. And then she respects that. I will ask her if there's anything she wants to say to the other child, and sometimes she says "I'm sorry", sometimes she doesn't, but she'll say something kind or just leave the child alone depending on the mood.

I, of course, make sure the other child is really OK, and make that child's needs a priority - DD doesn't get extra attention for behaving badly or unkindly. And when it's taken care of, DD and I have a talk about what happened, why what she did wasn't OK, how the other child felt, and how to handle the situation next time.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I do encourage DS to apologize if he hurts someone, and I model the same thing to him (i.e. if I step on him by accident I apologize). If DS doesn't want to apologize I do it on his behalf. I honestly don't care if he's sorry or not, he still needs to apologize for injuring another person. However, I don't force him to say anything.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Madonna* 
DD is 3. I do not force her to apologize. I was forced to apologize all the time as a child and it stopped meaning anything. Words without sincerity are pointless and insulting to the person who was hurt.

If DD hurts someone, accidentally or unintentionally, she must (and I will help her with this if necessary) check in with them. That means asking if they are OK. If they aren't, she asks what they need - an ice pack, a hug, some space. And then she respects that. I will ask her if there's anything she wants to say to the other child, and sometimes she says "I'm sorry", sometimes she doesn't, but she'll say something kind or just leave the child alone depending on the mood.

I, of course, make sure the other child is really OK, and make that child's needs a priority - DD doesn't get extra attention for behaving badly or unkindly. And when it's taken care of, DD and I have a talk about what happened, why what she did wasn't OK, how the other child felt, and how to handle the situation next time.

That is exactly how I handle it too.


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## coloradoalice (Oct 12, 2005)

I do not force my daughter to appologize. Instead I do explain the situation to her and gently suggest she go and check on the person she hurt. I do not force that either. I also go and check on the one that was hurt myself and model the behavior for her. 9 times out of 10 she decides she wants to check on the person that is hurt or sad and she then usually appologizes, or pats, or hugs the person.

I do not force those words though, because I feel that would teach my daughter that you should lie to please other people. I think that would be a deep lesson that would be much more damaging in the long run. I want her to be true and honest. By modeling the behavior to her I am teaching her to have empathy, and not to be a parrot.


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## P-chan (Jan 23, 2004)

We do the "make it better" approach, much the was Lady Madonna describes. Saying "I'm sorry" is one possible way to start making things better.

The other day my son pushed a friend and did not want to talk to him afterwards, so I didn't force anything. I checked in with the friend (who was OK), immediately took my son home, and talked to him a lot about how to make things better with his friend. We saw them the next day, my son apologized genuinely, and all was well.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Since DS is 20 mos we're just working it out now, but when DS hurts another child (he pushed one of his little friends a few times today







), I encourage him to notice how the other child feels: "See, DS, your friend is so sad! Can you think of anything you can do to make him/her feel better?", then (since he's still young) I prompt him: "Maybe you could give a hug? And can you remember what you can say that makes people feel better?", and then if he doesn't think of it, I prompt him again with the word: "sorry", which he usually is happy to say and give the hug-- though I would never force him to do this and would apologize on his behalf if necessary.

I don't want "sorry" to be something that automatically pops out of his mouth as though it has the magic effect of making everything all better, so we're focusing on other things like hugs, finding a toy to give the other child if that was the source of the dispute, and noticing how sad he/she is so that he'll eventually understand that saying sorry is just the first step in making up for a mistake, whether intentional or accidental, but I agree with many of the pp's that it's an important social convention. I will never "make" DS say sorry (or any of those other words I've heard parents forcing their kids to say), but, at least while he's so young, I feel comfortable prompting him with the words. Of course, we also do a lot of modeling, as we all apologize to each other when appropriate. Once he is older, I expect that I'll be able to stop prompting, but maybe a gentle reminder might be still required, which I think would be ok as long as it does not embarrass either child.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

My kids dont intentionally ever hurt other children, so thats not a problem... or ... well I should say rarely because I can remember one ot two instances.

However there are times that it happens by accident and they DO feel bad. If its someone we/they know, I suggest, you could say sorry or give some comfort... whether thats a hug, a pat on the back whatever... it helps them to make amends. I never insist on it, and they always offer something at my suggestion.

With each other I often make them hug.... It makes them laugh and makes both children feel better when they've been fighting... (but they are only 3 an 5, I dont think I would do that with older children).

I feel like they want to offer comfort bc they see me offer comfort, and if they decided not to comfort the child that was hurt, they would see me doing it.. which would be teaching for next time it happens.

but, to just let it go....and not say anything or suggest apology.. just seems a little rude.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I would apologize on his behalf, sort of. I say "thank you" on his behalf as well.
Not like "Keagan says he's sorry" but more like "oh! sorry that you got hurt" then try to figure out ways to make it better. I might give ds information about "what can we do to make him feel better."
I do point out how his actions do/can affect other people. ("Lily looks hurt because you accidently stepped on her" and "Sometimes it helps to say your sorry" Something like that. It's never really come up, but that's what I think I'd say.

I say "that's ok" when someone apologizes. But I'm not always comfortable with it. I like "thank you" a lot.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

well, i have been asking/telling dd1 (5.5) to say she's sorry. i don't know if that's the best way to handle it or not. she's a very gentle soul except around her little sister (3 next month) whom she likes to whack on the head whenever she feels her space invaded or just feels out of sorts. i think she's just more comfortable letting those agressive impulses out at home, on someone smaller than she is. dd1 is a very sweet and gentle kid, but she is not very empathetic at all. it's all about her, which is age appropriate i guess, but i think she really needs some guidance with empathy. she's a little egoist, sweet though.

anyway, here's an incident that happened just the other night. older dd was lying on my lap on the couch with her knees sticking out and one of her knees bumped little dd, though not very hard. dd1 did not say sorry. dd2 poked dd1 with one finger (again not too hard). then dd1 started poking back and dd2 was getting ready to whack dd1 when i intervened and explained to them what was happening. "dd1, your knee bumped dd2 and you didn't say you were sorry so dd2 poked you. dd2 i don't think dd1 meant to bump you, there's no need to poke her, etc". at that point dd1 said "i'm sorry" and dd2 gave her a hug and it stopped there and didn't escalate further like it often does.

i feel like i need to address it somehow because i don't want to let dd1 get away with it and send dd2 the message that whacking each other on the head is okay. urrrggghhh. i don't know if strongly encouraging "sorry i whacked you on the head" is the best way of approaching it, but i sure can't just ignore it. i will be rereading this thread to add some ideas to my toolbox. i just need to practice them so i'll be able to pull them out in the heat of the moment 'cause i GET SO MAD







when i see dd1 whacking my baby dd2 on her head or twisting her arm around. grrrrrr....

ETA: "thank you" as a response to sorry is one we use around here sometimes. other times "that's okay" works. "i forgive you" occasionally although that sounds a little stilted and patronizing to me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I answered this in another thread, so I'll just copy what I said there:

As for the whole "I'm sorry" thing. I don't make my kids apologize, and I don't exactly apologize for them, either. If dd (my aggressive one!) were to push/hit a child on the playground, I would probably say something like, "I'm sorry that happened - dd is making a lot of progress at dealing with her aggression, but she still has a ways to go"...apologizing for the incident, and letting the other child and parent know that it is something we're dealing with. I'd hate to leave them with the impression that I just don't care that their child was hit!

I might suggest to dd, out of earshot, that it would be nice to apologize, but I won't force the matter. If she doesn't feel sorry, I see no value in making her mouth the words. I don't have a problem with "empty" social pleasantries, such as "please" and "thank you" at the dinner table, or whatever. But, I hate insincere forced apologies with a passion. I was on the receiving end of many of them when I was younger, and I much preferred no apology at all to one given under duress. I also don't think that "say you're sorry" teaches kids anything about empathy or repentance.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I can't force my daughter to say anything. I do remind her to apologize if she's hurt someone, though. (We've also talked about how you can't just say you're sorry and do the same thing over and over again. It's not a "get out of jail free" card.














: )

She models quite well based on dh's and my behavior and usually says please, thank you, you're welcome, and sorry. Sometimes she gets caught up in the moment, as do we all, and needs a reminder. I think that's good manners and is an important skill to learn.

If she refuses, I apologize for her. Not, "Qualia's sorry she hurt you," because I don't know if she is and it's not my job to say that for her. But I will say, "I'm sorry you got hurt. I hope you feel better." Then I remove her from the situation, because if she's having trouble apologizing, chances are she's in a mood where she'll act out again and she needs a little space to calm down.

ETA: I really dislike it when parents make their children hug another child after hurting them. A woman at our playgroup always did that and the LAST thing dd wanted after getting whcked in the head by this kid was him coming at her with his arms up. It seemed so disrespectful of dd's feelings.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cravenab00* 
this is new to me. I DO tell my children they need to aplogize. I feel that if I dont that they will learn that hitting is ok.

it scares the crap out of me to think that a child would intentionally hurt someone and deliberatley not be sorry, to me this sounds sociopathic.

It's not sociopathic. It's young. Children need to develop empathy (some of them seem to start out with more than others, or catch on faster, or something). I've seen small children - toddlers, usually - actually laugh when someone gets hurt. They find the way the person reacts (hands flying to the face, sudden yelp, odd facial expressions, etc.) to be hilarious. That doesn't mean they're sociopathic - it just means that they don't yet grasp what's really going on. Just because a child knows that they're supposed to _say_ "I'm sorry", it doesn't mean they actually _are_ sorry. It might even end up with them thinking that what they did is okay, so long as they apologize. I want my kids to learn to _be_ sorry, not to _say_ sorry...

It actually occurs to me that maybe it _is_ sociopathic, according to a strict definition of sociopathic. But, if it is, then it's developmentally apppropriate, and is something they simply need to grow away from. Perhaps it's accurate to say that all children are born without empathy or a conscience, and they need to learn those things? I don't know enough about infant psychology to say one way or the other. Either way, it doesn't worry me. Little babies and children often have what would be considered anger issues in an adult, too. At that age, it's just a developmental stage that they need guidance to deal with.


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## anj119 (Sep 19, 2002)

I like the ideas presented in this thread. This is a good thread, and i am learning quite alot reading it.

However, I _do_ insist on 'sorry'. Offending child is removed from situation until that sorry is forthcoming.

I am fortunate to have an exceedingly understanding and sweet natured oldest daughter who, unfortunately, is usually on the receiving end of hurtful behaviors from her almost 3 yr old sister. She is always ready to forgive her little sister and is usually more concerned with how her sister is feeling about having hit her than she is about having been hit.... so i have not had to prompt for the acceptance of apologies.

-anj119


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Also, I think having them say "sorry" is a leading path to introduce empathy.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

We talk about why she did it and tell her to ask forgiveness.


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

Yes, I always insist my ds say he's sorry, even if he's not sorry. (But I do think most of the time he really is sorry). I just think it's good manners, kind of like saying 'please' and 'thank you'.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Yes, I EXPECT my kids to say that they are sorry. I think that this is the only polite thing to do. I expect them to ALSO do something else to 'make it better' if possible.

I think most people want those words said to them when they have been hurt.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Well, I started teaching my son to say he was sorry when he became verbal. It was "when we hurt someone (by accident or on purpose), we say I'm sorry." It's kind of like teaching please and thank you. You teach the form before they are really old enough to understand the concept. Then you add the understanding as they get older.

Now that he has more reasoning capabilities, I will give him more prompts. "You pushed M. Look at M's face. He is very sad." I give him a moment for this to sink in. Then I say, "What could you say to M to help him feel better?"


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

we dont make sandrel say anything.
like pp have said we feel its forcing her to lie and not helping her to actually *feel* sorry.
usually i will ask her what happened, draw her attention to the child who got hurt and ask her how she feels about that. usually she will find her own words of repentance and i will let her know she should tell the child how she feels.
usually this ends in "im really really feeling bad because i hurt you, im sorry and i dont want to hurt you again."
she knows you apologize to people because we always apologized to her, if we bump into her, eat the food she wanted to eat, have to interrupt her when shes in the middle of something, ect ect...
we've always apologized to her. around the time she started walking she started apologizing back. and now that she has a younger sister she sees us apologize to the baby for various things and she apologizes to her too.
we never had to 'actively teach' manners, they were modeled from birth. she knows no other way.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
It's kind of like teaching please and thank you. You teach the form before they are really old enough to understand the concept.

I don't teach dd please or thank you







: IMO, Children will pick up social conventions on their own, I don't need to say "Not until you say please" etc. When I watch other mom's do it I feel like they are training their child like they would an animal. I know this sounds harsh and I don't mean to offend, but when someone is holding something a child wants and says "Say please" and the child has to do it to get the item....it just weirds me out. I know that dd will pick it up on her own---after all, they don't call them social conventions for nothin'







I prefer letting children absorb the idea before experimenting with using it


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson* 
I don't think that insisting they apologize will teach them to be truely sorrowful. But, I do think it teaches them a very important social convention. I don't believe these conventions are totally arbitrary. Yes, it is possible to say "thank you" or "I'm sorry" and not mean it. But, it's also possible to feel regretful or grateful and be embarrased to express it. So, I do encourage my kids to say those things.


yes yes yes.

I believe very strongly in teaching my kids social rules. One of those rules is that when you do something wrong, you apologize. It will make things so much easier for them in getting along with other people if they learn the expectations of others.

Please, thank you, not interrupting when others are speaking, not using bad language - these all go in the same category of social rules all children are expected (but often don't) follow. My children will be treated better and with more respect by adults if they know and follow these rules.

I am not saying this is good or ideal. It is the way the world works, however, and I am helping my children by giving them these basic skills.

However, saying sorry, please, thank you, etc doesn't alleviate the need to also teach them about compassion, consideration of others, respect, etc.

Siobhan


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## sehbub (Mar 15, 2006)

I don't MAKE my children say "I'm sorry" however I do discuss with them why what they did was upsetting to someone else if they seem surprised. I usually pull them aside and we take a few minutes to talk about what happened, and why they reacted in such a way. 99% of the time, they then go to the person they hit/yelled at/what-have-you and voluntarily say "I'm sorry that I (insert transgression here)" because they feel the need to express their apologies to someone else.

Also, if someone does something to one of my kids and their parents MAKES them say "I'm sorry" as an automatic response type thing (or any time a person apologizes to my children, or us) they girls know that "it's okay" is not an appropriate response, but rather that "thank you." is more realistic. Because frankly, it's NOT okay for another person to hurt you emotionally or physically, but you can still thank that person for their apology, KWIM?

I'm trying really hard to be more GD and to help my kids understand their feelings instead of just assuming they know why they reacted a certain way. Emotions are confusing enough as it is, and I want to make sure my kiddos have the necessary faculties to express their emotions in ways other than anger. It's not easy, as my first instinct most of the time is to go with the gut response of "say you're sorry" but I'm trying, and my girls seem happier and better adjusted (not to mention kinder) for it.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

How on earth do you make a child say something? I'm actually serious about this. I can suggest something, but ds will never, ever repeat what I ask him to. He will NOT say "I'm sorry" even when it's suggested. I think he's spontaneously said it twice in his life. But he's stubborn and he shuts down verbally when stressed. Since situations that call for 'sorry' are also highly emotional ones, he's not going to do it.

So, like others, we ask him to 'make amends'. Actually what I do is point out how the other person is feeling, and ask him how he can help them feel better. He'll often do something physically if he can't say something.

He sees us model the skill. And while "I'm sorry" is an important social grace, I'd rather have him learn empathy at this age. As he gets older, then I will explain the social grace bit to him.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lurable* 
I don't teach dd please or thank you







: IMO, Children will pick up social conventions on their own, I don't need to say "Not until you say please" etc. When I watch other mom's do it I feel like they are training their child like they wood an animal. I know this sounds harsh and I don't mean to offend, but when someone is holding something a child wants and says "Say please" and the child has to do it to get the item....it just weirds me out. I know that dd will pick it up on her own---after all, they don't call them social conventions for nothin'







I prefer letting children absorb the idea before experimenting with using it









Just jumping into the convo from new posts but HALLELUJAH lurable (and other similar posters). I agree with every single word in this post from the depth of my being. Teaching kids to say "sorry" when there is no emotion behind it is just teaching them to be efficient liars IMO.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Yes, I EXPECT my kids to say that they are sorry. I think that this is the only polite thing to do. I expect them to ALSO do something else to 'make it better' if possible.

I think most people want those words said to them when they have been hurt.

There are few things I've hated more than having someone say "I'm sorry", when I know they don't mean it. I'd much rather not have an apology than have a false one.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
There are few things I've hated more than having someone say "I'm sorry", when I know they don't mean it. I'd much rather not have an apology than have a false one.

NO KIDDING! Is there ANYONE who would dispute this????????


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lurable* 
I don't teach dd please or thank you







: IMO, Children will pick up social conventions on their own, I don't need to say "Not until you say please" etc. When I watch other mom's do it I feel like they are training their child like they wood an animal. I know this sounds harsh and I don't mean to offend, but when someone is holding something a child wants and says "Say please" and the child has to do it to get the item....it just weirds me out. I know that dd will pick it up on her own---after all, they don't call them social conventions for nothin'







I prefer letting children absorb the idea before experimenting with using it









I do teach "please" and "thank you", but not by dangling treats. I also do it off-side, not in front of people. I'm not going to embarrass my kids because they don't get the "rules" yet. What I usually do is whisper to dd, or say something when the other person is out of earshot, to the effect of "did you want to thank so-and-so for such and such? I bet he/she would really like it". If she doesn't, no worries.

Kids are funny. Sometimes, she says it totally spontaneously when I'm not expecting it at all, and other times, she's just not feeling up to it (she really does seem to find it all overwhelming on some days.)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
There are few things I've hated more than having someone say "I'm sorry", when I know they don't mean it. I'd much rather not have an apology than have a false one.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *animus_silvae* 
NO KIDDING! Is there ANYONE who would dispute this????????

Yes, I would dispute this.

When something goes wrong with my order in a restaurant or a store I want the waitress or store manager to say she is sorry (and make amends). So long as she sounds like she means it I do not care what she is thinking inside. I just want the acknowledgment that something wrong was done. And I want her to use the words "sorry" which is to me the best way to express this.

And this is what I think MOST people want. Not all of course, I never said all. Not many maybe in the MDC world. But in the vast majority of the mainstream world? Yep, yep, yep.


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## ochoco (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I do teach "please" and "thank you", but not by dangling treats. I also do it off-side, not in front of people. I'm not going to embarrass my kids because they don't get the "rules" yet.

ITA with you, Storm Bride. "Please" and "thank you" are social lubricants - part of what I want to do is make life a bit easier for my child, and if he learns to be polite, then people will respond to him more positively, and his life will be better. Seriously. I agree that it's not cool to do it in front of others or in a sort of taunting way, but practicing the skill at home, when there's no pressure, is fine.

Same with sorry. I'm Montessori-trained (and my trainer loved Alfie Kohn!), and one thing we did a lot was "Grace & Courtesy". This was basically little role-plays where we'd practice a certain situation. So to your child: Have you ever accidentally hurt someone and made them cry? Here's what you can do to make them feel better." And then give them the words and actions: "I'm sorry I hurt you, can I get you a bandaid?" (Or whatever.)

Giving them lots of practice will help. But if they flub it, they flub it, and I wouldn't attempt to force a child to say sorry. What you can do is give the 'victim' words to express their feelings about the situation, if they feel like it. That can also be modeled in role-plays.


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
ETA: I really dislike it when parents make their children hug another child after hurting them. A woman at our playgroup always did that and the LAST thing dd wanted after getting whcked in the head by this kid was him coming at her with his arms up. It seemed so disrespectful of dd's feelings.

ITA! I have one friend in particular that does this and it really







: me! I mean if your 3yo just pushed over my 2yo, and then starts coming at her again in the guise of a "hug" and my 2yo runs away terrified what point does that serve. It does seem to be used as a get out of jail free card for some kids. Push, hug, push, hug.







:


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ochoco* 
ITA with you, Storm Bride. "Please" and "thank you" are social lubricants - part of what I want to do is make life a bit easier for my child, and if he learns to be polite, then people will respond to him more positively, and his life will be better. Seriously. I agree that it's not cool to do it in front of others or in a sort of taunting way, but practicing the skill at home, when there's no pressure, is fine.

I just want to add ds is pretty much non-verbal but 2 words he DOES use regularly are "please" and "thank you" and I have never once prompted him to say it. He has picked it up from watching me. If someone gives ds a treat or whatever, I will say thank you on behalf of him if for some reason he doesn't show it. I am all about modelling gratitude and appropriate social behaviour (I'm not a hill-billy!) but am disgusted by this "now what's the magic word?" crap. I want my kid to grow into a compassionate and intuitive being and not act like a puppy jumping for a biscuit.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
IETA: I really dislike it when parents make their children hug another child after hurting them. A woman at our playgroup always did that and the LAST thing dd wanted after getting whcked in the head by this kid was him coming at her with his arms up. It seemed so disrespectful of dd's feelings.

People actually do this? OMG I have yet to see it That's just downright creepy.

Oh wait a minute! I think my mom was raised in a "now kiss and make up" household. I guess that's pretty similar. But that's siblings--not playmates.

Either way, it just seems like utter nonsense to me. As an adut can you imagine someone coming over to hug you after a dispute? Yikes.


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## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

I think it's also really important to teach kids that if one person keeps hurting you over and over and asking for forgivness, it's okay (or preferable) to not accept their apologies and to not play with them anymore because they're really not a friend.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Yes, I would dispute this.

When something goes wrong with my order in a restaurant or a store I want the waitress or store manager to say she is sorry (and make amends). So long as she sounds like she means it I do not care what she is thinking inside. I just want the acknowledgment that something wrong was done. And I want her to use the words "sorry" which is to me the best way to express this.

And this is what I think MOST people want. Not all of course, I never said all. Not many maybe in the MDC world. But in the vast majority of the mainstream world? Yep, yep, yep.

Exactly!

One day, our kids will be *Adults*. And if they haven't been taught basic social skills of:

"I apologize"
"Thank You"
"Please"

then they are in for a rude awakening. Society will NOT accept that. This has nothing to do with Me, You or the Mama next door.

We have to teach our kids to take responsibility for their actions. Take "Ownership" of what they have done wrong.

Okay, fine, you don't have to "say sorry" but don't just *ignore* what you have done either.

We expect apologizes from our World Leaders...why not our kids??? I work in Corporate America. I work for a firm that has invested millions of dollars in Ethics/Diversity training and let me tell you... because you are dealing people of all race/cultures/backgrounds, you had better learn empathy and you had better be ready to voice that empathy because you never know when you might offend someone just because you don't know their culture.

There have been times when the leaders of our firm have had to "say sorry" to the people of our company. When they have done us wrong. On numerous occassions.

It doesn't have to be about "say sorry" well, they better say something because that won't work in Adulthood.


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## amaliaday (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sehbub* 
Also, if someone does something to one of my kids and their parents MAKES them say "I'm sorry" as an automatic response type thing (or any time a person apologizes to my children, or us) they girls know that "it's okay" is not an appropriate response, but rather that "thank you." is more realistic. Because frankly, it's NOT okay for another person to hurt you emotionally or physically, but you can still thank that person for their apology, KWIM?


That is how I feel. I don't say "it's okay" nor do I expect my kids to....I like to say "thank you."


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amaliaday* 
That is how I feel. I don't say "it's okay" nor do I expect my kids to....I like to say "thank you."

Where did the "its ok" come from anyway? I always thought an apology was something offerred like "can you accept my apology?" Thank you is the more obvious response to someone giving you something.

Now that I think about it, "its ok" that more often comes from me automatically! I am going to stop myself now and say "thank you" since that's more what I feel. I don't feel "its ok" much of the time.

Thanks for the awareness!


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## myrmom (Aug 19, 2004)

i do expect my son to say sorry...unfortunatly because of his language delay he can't say sorry and will hug instead. This is fine for dh and I and other adults but sometimes if it's another child he has hurt it can be quite intimidating from the person who hit you coming back in your space. So I will take him myself and "we" will apologize together.

I think it is important for three reasons...one it teaches him that what he did was wrong and hurt someone. Two it teaches him what is required of him in this society, and therefore will help him as he ages. Three I think it makes the third injured party feel better...and since he made them feel bad it's his job to now make them feel better.

As for it's ok...no I don't make him say ok, because sometimes it's not. I do however make him say Thank-you..this way he is aknowledging the apology without letting the offending party think that what they did was ok.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't expect or force or "make" our daughter say she is sorry -- or please and thank you for that matter, or anything else for that matter







because I believe children are born altruistic, social creatures who desire harmony and peace in their environment. That having been said, I do recognize and honor the fact that my child is still new in the world and is learning impulse control as well as patience, how to express strong emotions, and how to negotiate what she needs and wants while being considerate to the wants and needs of others around her --- aren't we all still learning those things???









So if my child were to hurt someone, I wouldn't even approach it in the mindset that she was hurting them intentionally. The _*act*_ may have been intentional, but I approach it like she has a need she is trying to meet but is not approaching it in the most effective/gentle/considerate way.

This is where information, guidance, and hands-on parenting comes in. I would first make sure the other child was okay physically and try to help them emotionally -- "Are you okay?" I am so sorry my daughter pushed you down, she was trying to play on the slide too and wasn't being very gentle was she?" (or whatever) I would provide information to my daughter -- I would make the assumption that the other child didn't want to be hit or pusehd "the little boy is upset because you were not gentle, he likes to be touched gently.Do you think we could try again?"

Basically, some variation of validating the other child's feelings, recognizing my daughter's actions and how they impact others -- I would make suggestions of how we could remedy the issue or meet the needs of all parties involved -- but using force or coercion to elicit some socially acceptable, though empty words of apology is not how we choose to *teach* our daughter social niceties.

For what it's worth, we have never forced please, thank you, I'm sorry, etc -- only modeled for her in daily life and explained situations where it may be appropriate to say them (without force or expectation) and she uses them pretty frequently. It can be done without force/coercion.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I don't expect or force or "make" our daughter say she is sorry -- or please and thank you for that matter, or anything else for that matter







because I believe children are born altruistic, social creatures who desire harmony and peace in their environment. That having been said, I do recognize and honor the fact that my child is still new in the world and is learning impulse control as well as patience, how to express strong emotions, and how to negotiate what she needs and wants while being considerate to the wants and needs of others around her --- aren't we all still learning those things???









So if my child were to hurt someone, I wouldn't even approach it in the mindset that she was hurting them intentionally. The _*act*_ may have been intentional, but I approach it like she has a need she is trying to meet but is not approaching it in the most effective/gentle/considerate way.

This is where information, guidance, and hands-on parenting comes in. I would first make sure the other child was okay physically and try to help them emotionally -- "Are you okay?" I am so sorry my daughter pushed you down, she was trying to play on the slide too and wasn't being very gentle was she?" (or whatever) I would provide information to my daughter -- I would make the assumption that the other child didn't want to be hit or pusehd "the little boy is upset because you were not gentle, he likes to be touched gently.Do you think we could try again?"

Basically, some variation of validating the other child's feelings, recognizing my daughter's actions and how they impact others -- I would make suggestions of how we could remedy the issue or meet the needs of all parties involved -- but using force or coercion to elicit some socially acceptable, though empty words of apology is not how we choose to *teach* our daughter social niceties.

For what it's worth, we have never forced please, thank you, I'm sorry, etc -- only modeled for her in daily life and explained situations where it may be appropriate to say them (without force or expectation) and she uses them pretty frequently. It can be done without force/coercion.

Well said. Thank you, captain crunchy.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
. Society will NOT accept that. This has nothing to do with Me, You or the Mama next door.


Society?! Society doesn't accept breastfeeding, but that doesn't stop me. I don't raise my children to go along with all of societies "rules" just because. They apologise when they are truelly sorry, and not because of arbitrary expectations society places on people. I do not conform simply because others say I must, and I don't expect my children to either.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
DS has a great sense of empathy, and he only acts in a manner that "calls for" an apology with other children with whom he is very comfortable, so it's been a blessing that I can work this out with close friends.

This has been my great fortune, too.

My approach is to nurture what seems to be a natural sense of empathy and compassion, mostly by reflecting it back to him. I don't ever force him to apologize. If I do something to him by mistake that would call for an apology, I apologize to him because I sincerely feel sorry. If he does something to me and apologizes, I say "thank you for apologizing" or "I appreciate your apology." We also talk about what "I'm sorry" actually means (mostly because he seems to be obsessed with discerning the actual meaning of expressions, rather than taking them at face value. I love this.







) I used to say, "that's okay" out of habit, but then he started saying it when it really wasn't okay. "Thank you" or expressing appreciation feels much more appropriate and sincere.

On the occasion that he's done something to another child and does not apologize, I just make sure that the child is okay and tell the child I'm sorry that s/he was hurt/upset/whatever. I don't really do it on my son's behalf, because I don't feel it's appropriate for me to put words in his mouth. I just express it from my point of view.

I get why people think it's important for children to say they're sorry, but having seen ds on the receiving end of insincere apologies (and hugs! ack!), it kind of makes me twitch.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
When something goes wrong with my order in a restaurant or a store I want the waitress or store manager to say she is sorry (and make amends). So long as she sounds like she means it I do not care what she is thinking inside. I just want the acknowledgment that something wrong was done. And I want her to use the words "sorry" which is to me the best way to express this.

And this is what I think MOST people want. Not all of course, I never said all. Not many maybe in the MDC world. But in the vast majority of the mainstream world? Yep, yep, yep.

Well, I lived in the "mainstream" world for a long, long time...in fact, I still do. I've had the apologies from store clerks, waitresses, etc. They don't bother me, but they also don't mean anything. It's a platitude - the amends they make (be it a free item, a replacement, whatever) are an attempt to keep business coming in the door. I understand that - they understand that. Everybody knows the score. I've had apologies from waitresses that sounded sincere - and others that didn't...makes no difference to me, because I don't care about the apology. I care about fixing the problem.

In any case...I want my child to _feel_ sorry when they hurt someone. I want them to understand that they have done so. I want them to _want_ to fix it. I see my job as helping them develop empathy. It's my job to teach them that "I'm sorry" is a socially accepted expression of contrition. It's not my job to teach them to lie. It's not my job to teach them to say "I'm sorry" when they don't mean it. I received dozens of forced apologies in school...do you think those _words_ mean anything to me now? More to the point...what do they mean to the guys who bullied me, were caught and forced to say "I'm sorry", then bullied me again ten minutes later? Maybe they're doing well in life now - they certainly learned the social conventions, and they can lie easily and without it showing. But, that's not what I want to teach my children.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
There have been times when the leaders of our firm have had to "say sorry" to the people of our company. When they have done us wrong. On numerous occassions.

So - they "say sorry", but continue to wrong you? That's not what I want my kids to learn about life. It might be accepted by "society", but it's not what I'm teaching.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
One day, our kids will be *Adults*. And if they haven't been taught basic social skills of:

"I apologize"
"Thank You"
"Please"

then they are in for a rude awakening.

But are children are not YET adults. One of the things a child has to learn is how their actions affect others. If you are rude, people won't want to be with you. That's more than mouthing phrases. It's about RESPECTING people. If they respect people, it will come through in their social interactions.

I will explain that people like you to say "sorry" when you have hurt them because it shows them you understand they were hurt. But force them to say "sorry"? Never.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
We have to teach our kids to take responsibility for their actions. Take "Ownership" of what they have done wrong.

Okay, fine, you don't have to "say sorry" but don't just *ignore* what you have done either.

I would argue this is a different skill than mouthing "I'm sorry." This is the one that I want my children to have. I want my children to recognize when they have hurt someone and be able to make amends. Whether or not they use the word 'sorry' is up to them.

I assume that my children are smart, social creatures. They will learn the words that they need for social interaction *through social interaction* NOT by being drilled. Indeed, handful of times our son has spontaneously said "sorry" is when he has accidently bumped into one of us. That's the phrase we use. If the hurt is the result of something he deliberately, "I'm sorry" might not be appropriate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
We expect apologizes from our World Leaders...why not our kids???

And did you really believe the Pope when he apologized? I didn't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I work in Corporate America. I work for a firm that has invested millions of dollars in Ethics/Diversity training and let me tell you... because you are dealing people of all race/cultures/backgrounds, you had better learn empathy and you had better be ready to voice that empathy because you never know when you might offend someone just because you don't know their culture.

"I'm sorry" does not equal empathy. If empathy doesn't come first, "I'm sorry" is useless.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I missed the post about World Leaders. This may not belong in the GD forum, but just to address it...I _don't_ expect apologies from World Leaders. I think 90% of the time, they're nothing but PR, and they very much rub me the wrong way.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

"Saying Sorry" is not completely about what one is *feeling*.

It's also about *acknowledgement* to the person who was wronged.


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## mamma.mia (Oct 11, 2006)

This is a tough one. It starts at home I think. I don't want my dd to be that waitress. She's only 4, but it can start now. I want my dd to apologize, but I don't believe in forcing her. Instead, I'm big on helping her recognize the right feelings. Like I'll say, "how do you think it made Josh feel when you knocked over his blocks? How would you feel? What do you think we should do to help him feel better?" If all goes well (cross my fingers), my dd will come up with an idea herself (give Josh a hug or help him rebuild his tower). It's cool when it works out cuz I'm not "making" dd do anything...and even tho she's only 4, she came up with her own solution.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I got a heartfelt apology from another adult the other day. It most certainly was not okay, but I appreciated that he said that he had been wrong and that he was sorry. I told him "thank you."


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
"Saying Sorry" is not completely about what one is *feeling*.

IMO, it should be. If a person is saying, "I'm sorry," that person should truly be sorry. There are ways to genuinely acknowledge that a person was wronged or is upset/hurt/etc. without offering platitudes. Not saying "I'm sorry" and showing empathy or compassion are not mutually exclusive.

Sometimes society's expectations don't really make sense. Why should one be expected to basically lie in order to make another person feel better? It seems to me that more people should be troubled by the idea that saying "I'm sorry" always amount to an expression of compassion, when it clearly isn't.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
"Saying Sorry" is not completely about what one is *feeling*.

It's also about *acknowledgement* to the person who was wronged.

that makes me think of something my DH does. i'll say i'm sorry about something like...um...that he has to go to a meeting he doesn't want to go to and he'll say, "it's not YOUR fault" when what i was trying to get across was not acknowledgement of wrongdoing, but just sympathy. there sure are a lot of layers to that "sorry" word.

another more irksome thing he does (hope this doesn't turn into my first ever dh rant on mdc







) is fail to acknowledge my apology when we've been fighting. i might say i'm sorry for blowing up and he doesn't say anything. that just irks me so much. i'm not asking for "it's okay", but "thanks" or some other acknowledgement that he heard me and appreciates that i am apologizing would be nice. whew, i'm starting to feel hot under the collar just thinking about it although it's been quite awhile since we've had a fuss. he's really a great guy, though and i'll stop talking about him now.

as far as the hugging along with the "sorry", i have been encouraging that between my dds. i want them to know that when they have done wrong by somebody they love a hug can be nice. i often offer hugs to them to help them feel better when i am apologizing or when they're just in need of hugging. i don't have particularly huggy relationships with my siblings and would like to foster closeness, too. i don't particularly encourage it with friends, but it's rare for my kids to poke/push/prod somebody other than sis. dd1 has some personal space issues herself and doesn't like to be hugged by just anybody so i wouldn't push that on another kid.

i am going to reread this thread because i think there are some really good ideas here about fostering empathy. i _really_ want to encourage that, especially with dd1 for whom empathy does not seem particularly easy.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

I think manners require an apology when you hurt someone accidentally. When there has been a conflict between 2 people, I think the situation is a little more complicated. I don't force an apology in those situations because I think it implies that apologies have nothing to do with feeling sorry, and I have seen an apology used as the condition for release from a timeout, and it rubs me the wrong way-- it seemed to be more about making the kid submit to adult authority than actually helping them consider the other child's feelings.

ZM


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *animus_silvae* 
I just want to add ds is pretty much non-verbal but 2 words he DOES use regularly are "please" and "thank you" and I have never once prompted him to say it. He has picked it up from watching me. If someone gives ds a treat or whatever, I will say thank you on behalf of him if for some reason he doesn't show it. I am all about modelling gratitude and appropriate social behaviour (I'm not a hill-billy!) but am disgusted by this "now what's the magic word?" crap. I want my kid to grow into a compassionate and intuitive being and not act like a puppy jumping for a biscuit.

Well, I have reminded my son to say please before he receives something, or suggested he asks in a nice voice (as opposed to "Give me!") before I comply with a request. I will also remind him to say thank you. Yet, he is still a compassionate and intuitive being. He greets people, he often says "thank you" spontaneously and genuinely. He tries to comfort other kids when they are sad.

Have you never said please, thank you, or sorry to smooth a social situation when you did not feel particularly pleased, grateful, or sorry? Why shouldn't we give our kids the same social skills? My child is not an automaton biscuit-jumper just because I remind him to use his manners. Sheesh.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
Well, I have reminded my son to say please before he receives something, or suggested he asks in a nice voice (as opposed to "Give me!") before I comply with a request.

What do you do if he doesn't ask in a "nice voice"?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
"Saying Sorry" is not completely about what one is *feeling*.

It's also about *acknowledgement* to the person who was wronged.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What do you do if he doesn't ask in a "nice voice"?


Well I am not the poster you asked, but I too expect my child to ask in a nice voice.

What do I do if they don't? Give them what they ask for and repeat my expectations for the next time.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

We generally remind dd to ask nicely. (There are times when she's what I call "beyond beyond"...super tired and overwhelmed, when I don't bother with it, because she's totally non-receptive, anyway.) Honeybee's phrasing of "before I comply with a request" just made me wonder how she handles it.


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## Hera (Feb 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
I would say something like, "oooh, it looks like I. is really sad/hurt/upset. Maybe there's something you could say to her/do to make her feel better." And she would perk up and run over and apologize and give her a hug immediately.


This is pretty much exactly what we do. The intense negativity with which some parents make their children "say sorry" can be really scary sometimes!

I also model by apologizing to the child myself. Now, my dd is not likely to deliberately hurt another kid, she's just never really done that. So, for us it's usually the case that dd accidentally hurt someone and feels bad, but feels that saying "I'm sorry" is an admission of guilt or something, so she'll just stand there looking nervous. I say, something like the above, and then go look the hurting child in the eyes and say "I'm really sorry that _x_ happened. Is there anything I can do to help you feel better?"


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:

What do you do if he doesn't ask in a "nice voice"?

Well, he nearly always does. If he doesn't, I would probably re-evaluate the situation to see where he is at, because most likely he's not in a rational place, so I need to adress that differently. If he is having a melt-down or in a completely irrational "feeling" mode, then I don't even bother telling him to ask nicely, I just try to fulfill his needs. Usually, however, this type of reaction is to something he can't have, and is often something I can't fulfill anyway (this morning, he wanted to go to a hockey game "right now" and really couldn't comprehend that the skaters would not be on the ice upon his demand!), so I just empathize and give him time to process his disappointment.

If he is just whining at me, though, I will remind him he needs to use a "big" or "nice" voice (and screaming "please" at me doesn't count, either!







), and wait until he at least attempts to moderate his voice. He usually cooperates after one reminder, and it's really a non-issue.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I really don't want my children to apologize if they don't mean it and I really want them to apologize and mean it.







:

So I think it's about modelling(it's always about modelling) what you want to see...teaching, explaining, identifying the feelings and deciding what you want your child to do.

Generally while my kids are small I will identify their emotions for them...you were angry so you hit so and so...we don't hit, it makes so and so hurt...then after that I apologize...I would say "I am sorry you got hurt"

I have been on the recieving end of apologies that meant absolutely nothing or were used to get the person out of scrapes...my ex husband for example...he was always sorry...for getting caught but not for the bother he caused others. He apologized daily pretty much and I stopped accepting his apologies...accepting them meant he got away with it...and he would do it again.

I want my kids to be able to deal with real emotions and real relationships in a healthy way and while I want them to be polite I really want their personal relationships to be authentic..that's the most important thing...

I have had a harder time with my older kids..who were forced to apologize for everything by their dad..they can be extremely polite but never apologize when they wrong someone because they don't get that sorry means you "feel" sorry it's not just a word.

They are learning now though because I have talked to them about it...at 12 and 16 I have to really work hard to get them to not try to wiggle out of situations with an automatic sorry(schools force it too). My oldest had a fight with a girl and they had to apologize to each other...school dropped the issue, girls hate each other still and nothing was resolved because sorry meant nothing to either of them. My dd is not the least bit sorry...and no she's not a sociopath, she had been tortured by this girl for a year and felt she deserved it, still does. I am sure eventually she will let this go but until then she's not sorry and neither is the other girl.

It's a balancing act but I have decided I won't force sorry...I will talk to them, identify the feelings, model sorry to them..ie...I apologise if I hurt them etc....but I will not force it.

My three year old is definitely getting it...she will immediately hug her baby sister if she knocks her down by accident..that genuine sorry means so much and is well worth the risk that she will be seen as impolite by random strangers.

I am sure as we venture out into the world and she sees me use "sorry" as a simple meaningless platitude that "society" sometimes demands of us she will learn to use it. In the meantime I want her to be genuine and feel sorry.

As an added note, I don't think there is anything wrong with reminding your child to say sorry as long as that's not all you do...if you teach them, explain why, talk about the feelings.

I know a lady who immediately demands her kids apologise...they say sorry as an automatic response to everything...they bump into the train table and apologise to it


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i'm really finding this thread interesting.

is there a way to acknowledge wrongdoing without expressing feeling "sorry"?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I do have my children apologize - one of the primary reasons I do this is because I think it makes the other child that was hurt feel better. Our almost 4 year old can get rough with our 20 month old sometimes and he will cry, but ya know if his older brother says "I'm sorry Max" and gives him a kiss the crying usually stops right away.


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## hipcoolmama (Oct 2, 2006)

I think asking your child to say I'm sorry is ok if they have done something to another child. I usually try to explain also why what they did may have hurt the other person. We might have a "time-in" where we have a short discussion about what happened and what maybe could have happened to make the outcome better.

The "that's ok" part? No, I don't think we should teach children to just accept apologies no matter what. If they don't feel ready to accept the apology or they feel it's insincere, then it's just injury added to injury that they have to say "that's ok." I let them own their own feelings unless they are the aggressor and I need to step in and parent them.


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## hipcoolmama (Oct 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
It's good for little kids to know that it is a convention to apologize. Otherwise, they don't know what to do if they regret doing something wrong.

Forcing apologies isn't the same thing as giving that information.

My feelings exactly!


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## hipcoolmama (Oct 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizaBear* 
etiquette requires in our society. It's good manners to say it.


That is a good point. It's important to me that my children learn how to be polite and have good manners.

Even if we have to deal with the discipline issues later at home and talk things out and explain, redirect, etc to GD, I don't want the good manners and etiquette to take a back seat.

I guess we do GD with some social etiquette balanced in.


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