# Uconditional Parenting Challenge...anybody want to join?



## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

Hi There!

Thanks for all the great recommendations for this book. I have recently finished reading it, and have decided to put it into practice. My thought is to take each principle, and focus on it for one week.

If anybody would like to join me and discuss their experiences, that would be great.

This week, I am considering to challenge myself to "Be Reflective". To meet this goal, I am going to take time to think about situations as they occur, review them later, and think about how I could have done things better.

Update later.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm in. This sounds like just what I need.

I'm taking an NVC-class this weekend, too.


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

I've been wanting to read this book since reading about it here and just found it at my library. I am going to start reading it this weekend


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I'll join you. I've been practicing the theories of that book during the past week, and boy have I noticed positive changes in my relationship with my kids. I am not perfect by any means, and I would love to join you so that I have support on this path (which is SOOOO not mainstream







).


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I think that I'd like to try. I feel somewhat hesitant, as the fear of failure looms in front of me. Will give it my best effort, though, and try to be gentle on myself when it doesn't go as planned!


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## mommy2julia (Mar 15, 2005)

I'd like to join, however, I just ordered the book last week--SO I havent read it yet.. I will enjoy reading these posts while practicing UC!!!!!


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## Collin'sMama (Jan 24, 2006)

I'd like to join, too! I







Unconditional Parenting!!


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

I'll join too. I've watched the DVD but want to get the book too.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I'd like to join too. I read 3/4 of the book and just recently ordered the DVD. Dh hates reading so I am hoping that the DVD will be just the thing for him to get excited about this.

I am glad to see this thread. UC has been very interesting to read, it makes so much sense to me but it is NOT how I was raised and that makes it a little







more challenging to implement. Support would be GREAT!!


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm in







Would love some support....


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i am reading it at the mo and would love to join


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I got the DVD yesterday







.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Own the book, would love to participate. What should we do, discuss particular instances where UP has come into play?


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

That sounds like a great idea! We are planning to watch the dvd tonight. I should have a lot more to say tomorrow.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I just watched the dvd and should be going to bed now but I just had to comment on this. In the dvd (I don't know how I missed it in the book) Kohn says that punishments and rewards cause children to become self-centered. They become very focused on "if I do this what will be given to ME (reward). If I do that, what will happen to ME (punishment)." They are not focused on how their actions are affecting other people and they are not concerned about the other person's feelings, only what will happen to them. It was like a lightbulb moment for me. It explains a lot about the way people are these days, myself included to some degree, unfortunately. Everyone caught up in their own lives, living unconciously, more concerned about money (reward) than people. Very, very interesting. Anyone else have the lightbulb go off when they heard this perspective?


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

It is great to see so many folks ready to chat!

Okay...so the principle I have been working on this week is "Be Reflective"

I have been really thinking about my methods for getting dd1 to do something that needs to be done, such as getting ready to go, etc. I try to be pretty cooperative, but am one to give her a choice like "If you don't do such and such, then you can't do something you want to". While this "works" it is really just a masked threat of punishment. I have been trying to take this away from our daily routine.

My big issue, however, has been since we opened the pool. When it comes to rules there, we don't feel that there is the option for all the extra time and chances it takes to do things without the authoritarian model. For example, dd1(2 1/2 yo) pushed dd2 ( 18 mo) into the pool. My reaction was to pick her up and immediately remove her from the area. When we got inside, she was tantruming terribly, and cried all during her bath and didn't stop until we settled down on the couch. We did get a chance to talk about it the next day, and she definitely got the message that pushing isn't allowed. I guess maybe this is one of those times that Kohn mentioned, where you have to assert your will on them.

Other than that, I have been really having some chats with dh, about the book and my efforts to deal with her in such a manner. He seems to be on board as well. He commented that he heard me talking to her about something that happened earlier, and really liked how I explored the issue with her.

Another thing I have been thinking about is how my parents dealt with me. My feelings were never taken into consideration. If things didn't go my way that was "just tough". I don't want my daughters to feel like they made me feel. I want them to feel that they are valued, unique and special.

Thanks for listening.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I've been trying to reflect on my motivations also (thanks Suzette!). I find that I want my children to do things just because it makes my life easier, which is pretty self-centered. I do want to be cooperative, however, so I've been trying to reword my requests to invite their participation in the decisions.

I rather failed at this tonight. I had to put everyone to bed alone, and wasn't very gentle about it. I will have to apologize and talk about this with my Dc tomorrow. That is the hardest part for me, I think. To admit I am wrong, apologize and ask forgiveness, and try to let me Dc see me as fallible. I didn't ever see this modeled growing up, so it really feels like a major blow to my authority.

I was raised with control, and find it's hard to let it go. I do think we need to have authority in our Dc's lives; I think the way we choose to exercise it is where the rubber meets the road.


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## rainy32 (Apr 27, 2004)

I finished reading UC last week, and I am so glad to see this thread!

I really like the idea of going with one principle a week. So: be reflective.

This one is huge for me.

Suzetta really isolated one of my difficulties - sometimes, I simply have to impose my will on ds - he is nearly 18 months, and loves to run, and doesn't understand that cars give big boo boos. So I pick him up and he screams and yells and even though I have reflected on why I'm doing it, and how I'm doing it, the outcome is the same - he feels like I'm imposing my will on him unfairly.

In other instances, those that aren't mortal emergencies - but like when we've been walking up and down the same street for AN HOUR, LOL, and I decide its time to go in gol darn it, its the same thing! I mean, I want to respect his needs and wishes - but sometimes I want him to respect mine, too!

I can't solve this, or resolve it - but I will spend this week reflecting on it, being more aware (to me, its like a constant meditation practice) - and I look forward to reading what others are experiencing, too.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

so for this week we are reflecting on how we could improve our relationship with our children, thinking about how when things become dificult how we could be more supportive of their needs and see things through their eyes?

is it for instance when ds2 wanteds to come upstairs with me to get his clothes but had his shoes on and i just wanted him to wait downstairs and wait so i wouldnt have to take off his shoes and then put them back on 5 seconds later once i had gotten his shoes - i guess if i am being reflective i would say

1. would it really be that much hard work to do what he wanted
2. i could have carried him so he could have come with me but i wouldnt have to get his shoes on and off

is this it?

(i still find that alfie kohn makes my head spin a little to be honest







: )


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

Count me in!







I don't have the book yet, but I'm running to the bookstore later to get it.

GREAT idea Suzetta, thanks for posting this!


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

I have both the book and the DVD. My dh asked what I wanted for Mother's Day. I told him I wanted him to sit down with me and what Alfie Kohn's DVD with an open mind trying to really listen and learn. Guess what? He did! It changed how he views parenting! Since then he has been on board with me about gp! He even had me write down some pointers and "rules" on poster board and hang it up in the room!







But I digress sorry.

As I reflect I find my motives are pretty selfish at times.
I don't want to have to do another things because I am frustrated







:
I am worried about what someone else will think. Even though I really try not to be. I get embarrassed when someone sees my house a wreck. A left over from my neat freak mom, a neat freak I am not. So I will get testy over a messy house and my parenting is not as good as it should be







:
My personal stumbling block with my 15 year old is that when she is being snarky I want to shut it down now! I fight that while I try to us parenting that is healthy for the both of us and actually teaches her instead of punishing her like the kid in me wants too







:
So these are things I am working on.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainy32*
Suzetta really isolated one of my difficulties - sometimes, I simply have to impose my will on ds - he is nearly 18 months, and loves to run, and doesn't understand that cars give big boo boos. So I pick him up and he screams and yells and even though I have reflected on why I'm doing it, and how I'm doing it, the outcome is the same - he feels like I'm imposing my will on him unfairly.

My friend and I were just talking about this today. We went to a Toddler Explorers "class" at a local park. Our kiddos kept running and running way ahead of the group, sometimes without looking back (which could be dangerous if they got too far ahead of us) and sometimes toward the road. We'd be right next to them and then bang, they were off. And there we were running after them, shouting for them to stop







, yeah right. If he is running toward the road or parking lot, I do pick him up and tell him... ready... "if you can't walk safely then I need to hold you." But then isn't that punishment? Do this and I will do this to you? Or is it not? This is where I get confused. I think that it is a major balancing act and you can't ALWAYS avoid imposing your will, especially when it is a safety issue. And, I am not sure how effective explanantions are to a two year old.

In all fairness I have to say that I have not gotten to that part of the book yet and we just watched the first half of the DVD last night. Maybe he does give more concrete advice for what to do but for now... I feel a little lost.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama8*
I

I am worried about what someone else will think. Even though I really try not to be. I
.

This is so true. I had an experience last week that is exactly how Kohn describes it. He states that often parents who are patient and willing to deal with their kids unconditionally at home, tend to become authoritarian when out of the home, as they are worried about what 'other people' will think. (This change in our demeanor frustrates children, and causes them to 'act up' even more) I taught my dh NOT to chase dd around, but to stay in one spot until she decides to come to us for things like dressing etc. However, I took her to a gymnastics class, which is her first structured activity. She was totally excited about being there, and of course having difficulty staying in the group. What was I doing??? Chasing her all over the place, getting all frustrated and NOT being myself at all! Dh came to experience one of her classes, did not chase her around, and the difference was remarkable...she saw that she was not being followed, and came right back to him. UGGH! Why do we worry so much about what other people think???


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

Quote:

I do pick him up and tell him... ready... "if you can't walk safely then I need to hold you." But then isn't that punishment? Do this and I will do this to you?
I wouldn't look at this as punishment at all...you are protecting your child, and it is one one the situations where it is important to impose your will on him, that Kohn discusses.

In these situations, I try to use wording that makes me on their side, like "I'm sorry, but I can't allow you to run so far away from me. Would you like me to let you down, so that you can practice staying close to me?"


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Sometimes, for safety reasons, you do have to impose your parental power on them. And I'm sure in those moments it does feel like punishment.

The way I resolve this is to look at the main influence in my kids' lives. A moment here or there of me using my power compared to 80 or 90% of the time me NOT using my power, means that the biggest influence on them is not one of power and punishment. Kids are flexible, they can adapt. I am not always the parent I want to be. But I am the majority of the time, and that is what matters. That influence dominates, kwim?


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Good points Suzetta and Piglet 68. I rewatched part of the dvd last night and Kohn did say that there are times when you will have to assert your will for whatever reason but he said you have to weigh the consequences. I am paraphrasing here (cuz I can't remember exactly what he said), in the situation you need to ask yourself some questions a. Is what your asking your child to do a valid request? b. What's more important in the situation, your will or your relationship with your child. That is as far as I got with his guidelines yesterday, there may be more. But just with these two questions, if you insert the stopping my child from running in a parking lot scenario, the answer is obvious. It's a safety issue. It's those gray areas that will be a little more tricky. Just like Piglet68 says. It is what your child experiences the majority of the time that makes the difference.

Suzetta - I had bells going off like crazy realizing that the reason my ds runs away from me at times is because he knows I will follow right behind him and make sure he is safe. He doesn't have to stay by ME because I stay by HIM.







The problem is that now he has already learned that I will chase him. I feel like I will have to continue this behavior outdoors so that the does not get too far away from me when it's dangerous but maybe I can start NOT doing it at home or in safer environments and see if I can begin to change that around. Any advice on how to change it around?

BTW - Mama8, that's cool about your dh getting on board. I bought the dvd mostly for dh. I knew he wouldn't read the book but figured he could stomach a couple of hours of tv







. Well, it worked for me too. I feel like it's because, just like me, he WANTS to do better but doesn't know HOW to do it. It's a relief to have a plan, a direction, a focus. Men are doers and now my dh knows more of what he needs to do. And I do too. Yipee.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

Quote:

I feel like I will have to continue this behavior outdoors so that the does not get too far away from me when it's dangerous but maybe I can start NOT doing it at home or in safer environments and see if I can begin to change that around. Any advice on how to change it around?
Part of your predicament is his age and developmental stage. Your reasoning with an early 2 yo is very limited. You will be amazed at how much his language and reasoning will take off over the next 12 months or so. Just continue to reason with him "as if" he understands everything...but always give him the benefit of the doubt for not understanding you.

There are so many things in UP....the notion of assuming that your child's intentions are good was another one that hit me. Rather than assuming they are out to defy us or cause mischief, use whatver facts are present to make your decision.

I think I will need to buy the book. I just renewed it on my library card. I am sure that they will ask for it back sooner or later.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Count me in









I have read the book 3x & I just got the DVD before I left for vacation.

Quote:

Why do we worry so much about what other people think???
This is one thing I'm trying to reflect on Suzetta. I am on vacation visiting my family & my behavior has been horrible







. It finally clicked after being here 4 days that I was doing what I didn't want to do. Thank goodness I brought my book with me. Maybe in hindsite I knew I'd need it.

I had a great moment of reflection--well maybe it wasn't reflection but decoding DD's message (I'm also listening to PET on tape). My mom wanted to take DD to feed the ducks at a nearby pond. DD couldn't wait to go. It had been getting chilly out so I suggested putting pants on. So I pulled out a pair & she got upset saying "those don't fit me. I want to wear shorts." I was OK with this. In fact if I had been going I would have simply brought the pants with me & when/if she got cold I wouldnve pulled them out. However my Mom was NOT OK with this. She told DD "well if you don't wear pants I'm not taking you."







: I took a few deep breathes to gain my composure & then went "hmmm--DD would you like to wear these pants instead?" Her eyes lit up & she said "Oh yes mom those fit me."

I was SO elated & gave myself a nice pat on the back







DD has issues with clothing & they have to fit & feel just right. I *gently* explained this to my Mom as well & she alos had an *ah ha* moment. SO I felt really good about it.

I'm going to think about a few things that happened yesterday & reflect on those.


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## ryansmommy (May 31, 2004)

I would love to join! I'm reading the book right now, and am hoping my dh will too. I am so dedicated to becoming a better parent and have lots to learn. I'm so happy to have other people to figure all this out with!


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## Thielmeyer (Feb 20, 2005)

There is a huge difference between stating a fact and using a threat or bride.

For instance, saying "if you do this dangerous thing, this hurtful thing will happen to your body" or "because I'm afraid you will be injured and it's my job to keep you safe...if you run into the street again I'll need to buckle you in the stroller".

In a situation where there is no immediate danger involved, the same basic statement is conditional. "If you run from Mommy I'm going to buckle you in". That is an obvious threat. "If you stay right by Mommy then I won't need to buckle you in" is an obvious bribe, (wiht hints of threat all over it) 

I've found in practicing UP with my kids that stating facts is very important. Brother hits sister I say "You hit her! To keep her safe from you I'll need you to move away". OR. Kids are screaming in the car and it's distracting..."Your screaming is distracting. If you cannot use a quiet voice we need to pull over" (agian, this is a saftey example) There is no love withdraw, simply stating how it is.

I've only read the frist 50 or so pages of UP. It's much to take in and process. I'm taking my time, reading each word on each page and absorbing ever bit of it. I have found this book to be life changing. I'm extremely aware of my parenting. I write about UP in my livejournal (raynbow_flyer) occasionally and give myself goals to think about through each day.

The biggest change I've made is to use empathic listening (which is a NVC tool as well). It's amazing how it changes each situation.

I can't seem to tune out the conditional parenting happening all around me. I catch myself constantly giving my children conditional love. It's so true that we say we love them unconditionally...but it doesn't matter how much we say it, it's whether or not they FEEL it.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thielmeyer*
I've found in practicing UP with my kids that stating facts is very important. Brother hits sister I say "You hit her! To keep her safe from you I'll need you to move away". OR. Kids are screaming in the car and it's distracting..."Your screaming is distracting. If you cannot use a quiet voice we need to pull over" (agian, this is a saftey example) There is no love withdraw, simply stating how it is.

I









Big Ah-hah moment! Thanks! We really need a light bulb smilie!
I have been struggling with how to approach things when I really do need to put my foot down. This makes sense.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzetta*
Why do we worry so much about what other people think???

This is a hard one for me more so when I am around my extended family. I tend to be way more authoritarian then I want to be around my parents sister or my in-laws. Uggh. When we truly know better we do better. This is my hope


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## Catrinel (Jul 18, 2005)

Thanks for starting this thread, Suzette. Will it be one new thread a week for each principle?

Be reflective. "In short: Be honest with yourself about your motives."

For me it means, for example, that I reflect on whether I do something because 1) that's what my parents did and it worked for all, or 2) my parents did it and I hated it. Whether it's 1) or 2) it can still be conditional love and might need changing.

Regarding the safety issues explored above. I think this would "fit" under making absolutely sure your request/behaviour is worth the possible strain on the relationship with your child and also under keeping in mind the long term goals you have for your child.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
I'd like to join too. I read 3/4 of the book and just recently ordered the DVD. Dh hates reading so I am hoping that the DVD will be just the thing for him to get excited about this.

I read the book and then borrowed the DVD from our toddler group library. DH watched the DVD with me and really got into it. The DVD is good, but the book goes into a lot more depth.

Personally I found the book to be quite healing in regards to my relationship with my own parents. And the principles behind UC really resonate with my DH and me, so it was good to have something we could use to get further on the same page.

I'm subbing this thread.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I've been trying to really step back and let my 2 yo take the control. It makes things a lot smoother, although much slower!

How do you use UP to resolve sibling conflicts? I'm talking here about knockdown-drag-out-screaming-hitting-kicking-pinching-hairpulling-biting-name-calling fights. I am at my wit's end, and must confess to using less than gentle methods, just to *make it stop*. No amount of explanation, reasoning, limit-setting, etc. seems to make a difference. It's the same thing every day.

BTW, my Dc are 7 (almost 8), 4.5, and 2.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thielmeyer*
There is a huge difference between stating a fact and using a threat or bride.

For instance, saying "if you do this dangerous thing, this hurtful thing will happen to your body" or "because I'm afraid you will be injured and it's my job to keep you safe...if you run into the street again I'll need to buckle you in the stroller".

In a situation where there is no immediate danger involved, the same basic statement is conditional. "If you run from Mommy I'm going to buckle you in". That is an obvious threat. "If you stay right by Mommy then I won't need to buckle you in" is an obvious bribe, (wiht hints of threat all over it) 

I've found in practicing UP with my kids that stating facts is very important. Brother hits sister I say "You hit her! To keep her safe from you I'll need you to move away". OR. Kids are screaming in the car and it's distracting..."Your screaming is distracting. If you cannot use a quiet voice we need to pull over" (agian, this is a saftey example) There is no love withdraw, simply stating how it is.

I've only read the frist 50 or so pages of UP. It's much to take in and process. I'm taking my time, reading each word on each page and absorbing ever bit of it. I have found this book to be life changing. I'm extremely aware of my parenting. I write about UP in my livejournal (raynbow_flyer) occasionally and give myself goals to think about through each day.

The biggest change I've made is to use empathic listening (which is a NVC tool as well). It's amazing how it changes each situation.

I can't seem to tune out the conditional parenting happening all around me. I catch myself constantly giving my children conditional love. It's so true that we say we love them unconditionally...but it doesn't matter how much we say it, it's whether or not they FEEL it.

Thank you for posting this. I found your words to be helpful and insightful.

(and convicting and inspiring!)


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Got to report..........
This thread has already helped me.
Yesterday I took my 4 little ones to the movies. They are 7 4 2 and 8 months. Well the 4 year old kept getting up to go to the bathroom. I mean like 15 times. Back and forth back and forth. Declaring in a normal tone of voice "I have to go to the bathroom!" Each time she went the 2 year old insisted on following. So I am getting up and chasing down the 2 year old to stand with her and trying to figure out the best way to be least disruptive to the movie goers. To add to the situation my neighbor/tenant had brought his 5 children to the same movie and it appeared that they all were sitting quietly watching the movie. Normally this would have been a situation I would have gotten embarrassed and stressed out in. Well, this thread helped me to reflect on my motives to parent and I was aware I tended to parent worse when I was worried about what others where thinking so I kept repeating in my head to myself,"Make the parenting choices best for the child and not your ego." So I stayed patient and decided that I was doing the best I could. Afterwards I thought about it. One it was a children's movie and my child was not the only one going up and down the isle. I saw probably 4 other children doing the same thing. 2) it was the dollar theater.3) the 2 yr olds behavior was very age appropiate. After the movie in the car I talked with my 4 yr old about how when she was going in and out of the movie so many times it made it hard for other people to enjoy the movie. I really was not getting on to her just explaining. I am so grateful I took that approach because come to find out my 4 year old had been sick to her stomache during the movie and was running to the bathroom to try and feel better. So as it turns out my perception at the time of what was happening was wrong and it wasn't even a behavior issue. I am sure my neighbor thinks it was but his opinion really doesn't matter. So pat on the back for me


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

yay mama8

ok here goes

ds2 has a toy which both ds's like, the shop only had one, i suggest after school we stop off to buy one for ds1

he freaks out screams that hes too tired all the while trying to snatch toy from ds2

has major melt down i tell him he and ds2 can go in double buggy and baby in sling - he didnt go for it

i know hes over tired

he screams all the way home i am afraid that eventually i lost it







:

tried to get him to listen to his body when he got home and have a rest but he didnt want to

we have had 3 days of what feels like constant melt downs due to tiredness but he is not falling asleep till about 9pm no matter what i do and waking before 6am every day

how do i handle joint 5yo and 3yo meltdown lovingly? when i feel like having one of my own?????

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Vanessa, at that point, I would def. use my authority and institute a family-wide rest time. Maybe everyone doesn't sleep, but everyone has down time. Books, puzzles, quiet activities, etc. No running, jumping, yelling, etc. If it's too much stimulation for everyone to be in the same room, then put them in separate rooms.

I have a friend with 4 girls (oldest is 10, youngest is 4); for years, she had a policy of quiet time in the afternoon. They could choose an activity (or two or three), but they had to stay put in their designated spot (they shared 1 bedroom in a small house, so they were all over the house, not just in a bedroom) for 1 hr. She said that the girls began to look forward to that time as their own, and it was worth making it non-negotiable for the peace and harmony that resulted from everyone being better rested.

edited to add: I wouldn't make this a punishment, but rather something that we need to do to help us get along better, take better care of our bodies, whatever your goal is. I would also make sure the activities you/the child choose are fun, something enjoyable. I would def. not want the child to think that they had to rest because they were so "bad".


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I feel like I can't offer any advice becaue I only have one child and have not had to deal with more than one tantrum at a time. However, I just wanted to say that it sounds like it was overwhelming and frustrating. I would have been trying really hard to stay focused on doing the "right" thing. I hope other, more experienced moms, have helpful advice for you.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

thanks

i tried the rest thing but ds 1 saw it as a punishment, maybe it was to him i just really needed some quiet time and some space

maybe next time giving him a snack and letting him watch a little tv would work that way he would see it as not a punishment

it was a long day and to be honest i am nervous about tomorrow as the last 2 days have been stressful

wil try to put into practice up will let you know how i get on


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## britmama3 (Feb 1, 2006)

Hi - I'd love to join this thread also.

I read the book about 3 weeks ago and I need to re-read it again to really let it sink in. I didn't realise there was a dvd as well - that may be the only way to introduce my dh to the principles!

In this short time I have noticed an improvement in my relationship with the childen already. I have been making a concious effort in particular to try and see things from their point of view and to not say no without a good reason. I feel there is more harmony and co-operation in the home as a result.

There is still a long way to go and I am looking forward to sharing this journey with you all. In particular I have the most difficulty implementing the ideas when I am tired. I had a bad night with the baby last night and have been busy preparing for the arrival of my brother and family tomorrow and a vacation with them on Saturday. By the end of the day I have felt very short-tempered and every other word seems to be no. This is when I find it the most difficult.

One other thing, we also have quiet time in the afternoons if we are all in need of a rest. Although the boys aren't usually too keen at the outset they settle down to reading or drawing in their rooms and things are always a lot calmer and happier afterwards.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I'd like to join in!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gardenmommy*
That is the hardest part for me, I think. To admit I am wrong, apologize and ask forgiveness, and try to let me Dc see me as fallible. I didn't ever see this modeled growing up, so it really feels like a major blow to my authority.

I was raised with control, and find it's hard to let it go. I do think we need to have authority in our Dc's lives; I think the way we choose to exercise it is where the rubber meets the road.

I feel the same way, gardenmommy. My mom was a strict authoritarian (nicknamed "the dragon lady," if that tells you anything!







). I find myself repeating the same kind of parenting habits sometimes, and i hate it. I especially have a hard time when ds son purposefully ignores my requests (to stop screaming while I'm talking on the phone, to stop throwing food on the floor when he's mad, etc.). It always feels like a blow to my authority, as you describe feeling. This is the time when I'm more apt to get really angry with ds and act in a way I don't like. I feel almost powerless when it happens, like I can't stop being really angry. That's how ingrained this need for control is in me. I'm getting better, though, about calming down and letting go. Not all the time, but sometimes. And reflecting on it later, as I'm doing now, makes the next time a little bit easier.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
If he is running toward the road or parking lot, I do pick him up and tell him... ready... "if you can't walk safely then I need to hold you." But then isn't that punishment? Do this and I will do this to you? Or is it not? This is where I get confused. I think that it is a major balancing act and you can't ALWAYS avoid imposing your will, especially when it is a safety issue. And, I am not sure how effective explanantions are to a two year old.

Yes! That's my dilemma with my two year old, too. Like tonight when I gave ds a bath. He always wants to stand up in the bathtub and get the toys out of the net hanging on the tub wall. I moved it so he can reach the toys from a seated position, but he still kept standing up (mainly b/c I didn't want him to). I feel like it's safer if he remains seated while bathing. So when he stood up for the third time, I said, "do you want to get out of the bath?" He said "no" and sat down. Then I reflected on this method of getting him to do what I wanted. He didn't sit down b/c it's safer to do so; he sat down b/c I was going to take him out of the bath if he didn't. So, according to Kohn, I was punishing him, threatening to take away something wanted if he didn't listen. I find myself in this situation all the time with ds. But ultimately I want him to listen to me b/c he believes what I'm saying or thinks it's a good idea, not b/c he'll be punished if he doesn't. I just don't know what to do instead. That was the most frustrating thing about Kohn's book. I understand the theories but have trouble putting them into practice. Does the dvd provide any more examples than the book does?


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## allibob423 (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:

But ultimately I want him to listen to me b/c he believes what I'm saying or thinks it's a good idea, not b/c he'll be punished if he doesn't. I just don't know what to do instead.
Me, too! Maybe it's an age thing? Dd is 21 mos. Is it punishment to say, "Please sit down. You can sit on the chair or stand on the floor." I feel better about it when I give alternatives of things that are OK to do.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

What I find helpful with my 2 yr. old esp., but also seems to be of some use with my older children, is to frame it like this:

"Please sit in the bathtub. The bathtub is a place for sitting."

When she (invariably) says "no", I respond by saying "I am concerned that you might fall and bump your head. That would hurt you. Can you sit down by yourself, or do you need me to help you?" Invariably, the answer is, again, "no".

So, I will wait a little bit longer just to see if she will do it on her own. Usually, she doesn't do it. I will then say "I see that you are having trouble sitting down. I am concerned that you might fall and hit your head. That would really hurt. I am going to help you sit down right now so that you stay safe in the bathtub."

At this point, almost always, she decides that she wants to do it all on her own. Which is fine, my goal isn't to *force* her to sit down, but rather to keep her safe; so if she does it on her own, but we had to go through the whole dialogue to get there, that's ok. She is safe, and we are both happy.

Obviously, I am not going to help my 7 yr. old sit in the tub. But I might use this approach if he was having trouble, say, taking his legos out of the kitchen while I'm cooking. I think it's probably more appropriate for younger children, but I still find it effective with the occasional situation with my oldest.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allibob423*
Me, too! Maybe it's an age thing? Dd is 21 mos. Is it punishment to say, "Please sit down. You can sit on the chair or stand on the floor." I feel better about it when I give alternatives of things that are OK to do.

I don't think it's punishment to state what they can do. In the situation you mentioned, you are not withdrawing love, rewarding or punishing. You are telling the child what they may do. At 21 months, a child doesn't really see the safety ramifications of standing on a chair. They don't know that the chair might tip over, that they might lose their balance and hit their head on the table. They can't see those possibilities. It's part of our job as the parent to keep them safe, and sometimes that means limiting what they can do. That's not controlling them for the sake of controlling their lives; it's about giving them safe options. You wouldn't let your child play in the middle of the highway, just to avoid telling him no; you would limit his options of play areas to those that are safe. Sometimes you have to exercise your authority (as gently as possible) in order to protect your child.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000*
thanks

i tried the rest thing but ds 1 saw it as a punishment, maybe it was to him i just really needed some quiet time and some space

maybe next time giving him a snack and letting him watch a little tv would work that way he would see it as not a punishment

it was a long day and to be honest i am nervous about tomorrow as the last 2 days have been stressful

wil try to put into practice up will let you know how i get on


I wanted to reply to this. Sometimes, I've also found that just having my dc watch a quiet movie or have a snack helps them regroup without the nap. Usually we still have meltdowns because they really did need a nap; when that happens, we just try to make sure that they are ready for bed a little earlier. Ours are at the point now where they are starting to realize that they feel better when they get more rest (sometimes, that is. Sometimes they just don't care, and it makes everyone miserable!).

If it doesn't work everyday, just keep trying something else.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

nak
i'd love to join in if i can ever actually read the book.









for those of you who have bought the dvd, i was wondering where you bought it? thanks!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gardenmommy*
I wanted to reply to this. Sometimes, I've also found that just having my dc watch a quiet movie or have a snack helps them regroup without the nap. Usually we still have meltdowns because they really did need a nap; when that happens, we just try to make sure that they are ready for bed a little earlier. Ours are at the point now where they are starting to realize that they feel better when they get more rest (sometimes, that is. Sometimes they just don't care, and it makes everyone miserable!).

If it doesn't work everyday, just keep trying something else.

i will do

i really need to find a way to connect with ds 1 today as i feel my relationship with him is really strained today


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greensleeves*
for those of you who have bought the dvd, i was wondering where you bought it? thanks!

I bought mine from Amazon but only because I got a GC for mother's day. Otherwise I would have bought it directly from his site. www.alfiekohn.com. It was the same price, $29.99.

I finished the dvd last night. I found it a great supplement to the book because it is more concise. It's something I can go back and watch periodically to refresh my commitment and it will only take me 2 hours vs. maybe 20 to read the book. Also, it took us a few days to get all the way through the dvd. During that time I had been reading on this thread and talking with friends. When I went back and continued to watch, I was thinking about his words in reference to different scenarios and I found that very helpful as well. If I had all the time in the world, it would be interesting to watch the dvd with a problem/scenario in mind and see how his words fit that particular case.


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## rainy32 (Apr 27, 2004)

good morning mammas.

I've really benefited from reading the discussion about safety issues, and I'm glad to hear that others have been struggling to deal with keeping dc safe while not imposing your will, too!

britmama3 wrote something that really resonated with me - she said that when she is tired, she has more trouble being uc in her actions (paraphrasing!). I think part of being reflective is also reflecting on when and why we might be less likely to parent how we want to! I realized, reading it, that I am OK when tired but NOT OK when Hungry!







So part of making changes in how I parent means also making changes in how I take care of myself!! Like right now, if dh woke up a bit earlier than I expected it would be hard, because I haven't eaten breakfast yet. So I'm gonna go eat so I can be more patient with him later!

NO LIE, he just woke up !!


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## liebchen (Jun 6, 2006)

Hi--I'm new to these boards & I just read UP. Although it took really thinking about what I read to get on board, I have made it my goal to follow Kohn's principles. I forwarded an article outlining the concepts to my Mom, who jokingly said "good job! you're being a good mommy!" lol

I wanted to share that although my dd is only 13mos, she has responded wonderfully to my new parenting style. Before, when I would need to wash the dishes, she would fuss. I would get frustrated, and probably in a voice that reflected my feeling of being tired & overwhelmed would tell her "just a minute! Mommy is washing the dishes and then I'll come play." I would never yell at her, but I'm sure she picked up on my stress level.

Yesterday, I just "amped up" my attachment parenting style w/Kohn's ideas of respecting the child, trying to see things from her prespective & not doing things 'to her' and I realized that she was just expressing her love for me! She thinks I'm wonderful & just wanted all of my attention. Instead of saying a bunch of "good jobs" (boy, I did that a lot!), I just took time to sit and play and talk with her until she contentedly went to play independently & I got to get to some chores.

I'm really grateful to have found these boards! We live in a rural area & I am all by myself all day until DH gets home.


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## liebchen (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainy32*
good morning mammas.

britmama3 wrote something that really resonated with me - she said that when she is tired, she has more trouble being uc in her actions (paraphrasing!). I think part of being reflective is also reflecting on when and why we might be less likely to parent how we want to! I realized, reading it, that I am OK when tired but NOT OK when Hungry!









So part of making changes in how I parent means also making changes in how I take care of myself!! Like right now, if dh woke up a bit earlier than I expected it would be hard, because I haven't eaten breakfast yet. So I'm gonna go eat so I can be more patient with him later!

NO LIE, he just woke up !!









I could have written these posts! I had a lightbulb moment when I realized that at 4-5pm, my dd is always fussing, whining & cranky. So was I! I started making sure that we both got a shot of protein & outside for a walk at the 'witching hour' & I think we both benefited wonderfully.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liebchen*
I forwarded an article outlining the concepts to my Mom, who jokingly said "good job! you're being a good mommy!" lol


Could you post a link to the article? I'd love to send one to my Mom too.


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## liebchen (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moochie Mamma*
Could you post a link to the article? I'd love to send one to my Mom too.

sure: http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Thanks, spencer's mom!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

ok lets set ourselves a goal for the day

lets all try and not say no unless we absolutely have to - for instance ds2 took one of the very sharp knives out of the drawer yesterday and when i asked for it back he started running away with it at that point i shouted in my very loudest voice to STOP!!!

he looked very upset and so i picked him up and gave him a big hug and took the knife and explained how the knife was so sharp he could have gotten really hurt

so lets try to not say no today!

what do you all think of having a daily up challenge?


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i think up is making my relationship with ds1 worse

i try hard to be loving, considerate an d take into accunt his feelings bt i get so frustrated with his refusal to cooperate the end result is that things are far worse than if i had just been more firm with him to begin with

for example tonight we are all ready to take a stroll to the shops - about 10 minute walk away, lovely cool summer evening

suddenly ds1 deides he wont go and nothing will make him go if we dont go in the car

the car is hot and stuffy p[lus putting everyone in and out of the car twice would take longer plus ds2 wants to walk and so do i
in the end we dont go as ds1 refuses and i cant make him

i get so ticked off i get sarcastic and rude and generally not nice, tell ds2 we cant go because ds1 wont let us

if i hadnt tried so hard and said stop it we're going we would have had a great time and i know ds1 would have hads a nice time after his initial complaints.

i feel next time i dont want to be so accomodating of his feelings as it seems to be turning him into a stubborn, selfish, self centered little boy

edited to point out i now realise that after having gotten all that off my chest i realise i was very unfair, ds1 was tired after school and i disregarded his feeling totally, i didnt try to compromise just get him to negate his own feelings to make us happy - which is wrong.

i have apologised to ds1 for not thinking about how tired he was after school and not being willing to be flexible and how i behaved in an unkind way and that i was sorry

i just really cant get past the whole control thing, if he doesnt do as i ask i feel so powerless and resentful that i dont react well at all.

feeling very blue, think they would all be far better off without me, i have a terrible mean side which they should never be subjected to.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

oliversmum - I sounds like you are having a tough time. So sorry to hear that. I think you need to be gentle with yourself. This UP thing is a totally different way of thinking and being. It will not happen overnight and the transition will be uncomfortable. I sensed a lot of positive energy in your previous posts. Maybe this was just an off day. I have my fair share of those and at times I feel helpless/hopeless. However, I wake up the next morning and vow to do better, try a little harder and each day it seems to get a little better. Keep your head up. We are here for you.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

thankyou

your post made me cry

feeling totally overwhelmed

was supposed to be going out this evening to pub down the road with some other mums in my road but decided against it as i was feeling so down

i felt i didnt deserve to be ddoing something fun

after talking to do and reading your post maybe i will go

thank you so much for not judging me and understanding how hard it is

i try so hard and i love them so much i just want to be the best i can be for them and end up being the worst sometimes

thank you for reminding me tomorrow is another day

babys sleeping, my 3 boys are all playing football in the garden, when dh got in ds1 asked if he would go to the shops for us!!

he told me i was really grumpy but doesnt seem to be feel that a. he was responsible or b. that it has anything to do with my love for him that it was my feelings that i am responsible for and glad im not grumpy anymore - how did he get to be so well balanced!!!

i think i will go out

you have no idea how much better your post made me feel


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm so glad you are feeling a little better and that my post helped. And I can tell you love your children very much and are trying hard to be the best parent you can be. It is because you care so much that you are being hard on yourself. Your perseverence in a tough situation will be a valuable lesson in and of itself. I bet you are harder on YOU than your children will be. They will understand.

I think going out tonight is EXACTLY what you need. I find that when I get out, connect with friends, eat yummy food and laugh it feeds my soul and I come back refreshed. I hope this happens for you. Parenting is majorly hard work and I only have one!! Let us know how your night was and how you feel tomorrow morning!


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momandmore2*
That was the most frustrating thing about Kohn's book. I understand the theories but have trouble putting them into practice. Does the dvd provide any more examples than the book does?

I haven't read the book, I have the dvd, mainly for dp, but unfortunately the problem we found with it was that it doesn't provide specific examples. It said all the things NOT to do but then we were left with, well, then what do we do when our child does something that requires us to use our will?

I want to get the book in hopes that there will be more detail but now you are saying that the theories aren't put into practice there either!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

had a great night and am looking forward to putting up into action again today!

dh was great last nigth with the boys he got ds2 to sleep and let ds1 stay u[p and watch the start of the world cup with him

thanks again


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Great to hear Vanessa. It's a new day!


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I also wanted to say that Kohn addresses the fact that he does not go into details about how to put the theories into practice in his dvd. He says it is because every person and every situation is different. He cannot prescribe do A, B and then C because this isn't realistic. I found this very frustrating too when I first read the book. I think we want more concrete information because these ideas are foreing to us and it will be easier than trying to figure it out on our own. My take on it is that the answer is reflection and conscious parenting. Meaning when you are in a situation with your child you try to stay present and concious of the principles. If it doesn't work out the way you had hoped, you can take time later to sit in it and reflect on what did work, what didn't and why. Or, proactively, you can imagine different scenarios that might come up and develop dialogue of what you would like to say/handle it following the principles. That is just MHO. I would really like to hear what others think.

I have thought about typing the principles out on a piece of paper (or maybe they are on his website). I am a very visual person and I think it would really help them sink in.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

This group is really taking off! I have really gotten a lot out of all the discussions taking place. Later on tonight (When I get some peaceful moments), I will start a new thread, for Week #2.

Oliversmum....I wanted to write a special note to you...I hope you stay with us, and don't give up. I really don't think UP is about becoming a "perfect"
parent, or doing everything right. I think it is more of a philosphical view to drive our parenting practices. It sounds to me like you are totally on board, as you clearly take your children's feelings into consideration. Of course you will have bad days and rough spots, and that, to me is what is the best thing I took from the book...it is not a prescription for manipulating 'proper' behavior from your children. I see nothing wrong with taking a temporary authoritarian/ no-nonsense approach when your time or patience is limited. It takes a lot of time to get the the heart of the matter with every problem that occurs. But doing it for the big stuff (sibling rivalry issues, when they are really angry or hurt about something, etc. ) is really what matters. When I want my dd to stay close to me at the supermarket, I don't give her any lee-way. She must comply, or I will have something to say! The fact that I respect her feelings on other issues, makes those authoritarian moments run more smoothly.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

thanks suzetta

i am feeling a lot more positive and had a great day with my children today, i stayed calm, we negotiated and they were lovely to each other and to us

i felt proud of all of us today!

i am reading and highlighting the up book which is definitely helping

thanks for your support it really means a lot


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## attached2mason (Apr 22, 2006)

I am so glad to find this thread! I read UP a few months back and it just "fit" - in the same way AP did when ds was a baby - it just feels right. Several times throughout the book I found myself recalling feelings from my own childhood that were consistent with what AK was saying. This approach just feels intuitively right to me, kwim?

Anyway, I just spent time reading through the thread and don't have much time left to respond . . .just wanted to say I'd love to join and ask a quick question . . .

I am having trouble with ds - 17 months - (who is fairly intense I would say) and throwing things. He doesn't have 'mean' intent, I can tell, but it makes it tough when he throws things at other kids or at dh and I. I have been hurt more than once as he is very strong and has a good arm! I have been talking to him calmly and in each sitation trying to figure out what is up with him and the increased intensity behind the forceful throwing (i.e. hunger, needs attention, too much stimulation, tired, etc). Sometimes it doesn't seem to be connected to anything, though. Is this just an age thing? Any suggestions for how to deal with it? As a pp mentioned, sometimes I feel pressure to mainstream parent when we are out in public and my ds has just hurled a block at a childs face. Ugh, no fun. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Oh please, please, suggestions about the throwing. Our throwing toddler is 2 and I'm going to have a newborn in about 3 weeks. I'm dreading this combination. He's a rough kid in lots of ways but the throwing is SO random and can really cause injury.

Usually, I either ignore or pick it up and ask him to hand it to me, and 99% of the time he complies. It's definitely not malicious - just kind of oblivious. ack!


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## BlissfullyLoving (May 4, 2006)

My son is also a thrower. He is 22 months, and he does it because it is fun or he is frustrated. He also hits our cat, but I think his reasons are that 1-it gets our attention, 2-it is also fun to see the cats reaction, 3- he is learning between gentle and non-gentle touching.

One of Kohn's biggest themes was that we should teach our children how their actions affect others. (Punishment and rewards teach them to be selfish.) Keeping that in mind I have been saying to him that throwing (when inappropriate; remember his story about the mom not letting her child throw when it was perfectly safe) hurts and then trying to redirect him to a safer place to throw. Sometimes when we are out there is no safe alternative, so it is no throwing. I explain to him that throwing hurts people and property. I have also been telling him that even raising his arm to throw or hit scares people or the cat (you can physically see the cat getting nervous).

If his response is out of frustration or anger I really do not respond. I give him plenty of affection and acceptance, but I only quickly mention that the throwing or hitting hurts. There is a powerful emotion he is trying to cope with, so I try to focus on that.

We do a lot of redirecting and sometimes he persists on throwing or hitting. It depends on the situation, but we usually distract from there.

I think it really is a developmental thing they are going through, and their impulse control is so rudimentary. I will just keep reminding him that his actions are affecting another negatively until he can internalize that thought.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I want to join! I just started reading this book


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