# "If you had a dead baby then you COULD take a nap!"



## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

I was a bit grumpy the other day when a friend called. first time interrupted my mid-morning nap (I didn't tell her that I didn't get in till one AM after work and WM, got up early to get kids off to school, then went back to bed), she was sweet and called back @ 2ish. TWO times she mentioned my nap, after saying, "I sure do wish my baby (who is 7 months) would sleep!" so I actually said to her the title line. I think I was rude. I feel bad for it. But then again why would she go on and on about such a thing to a mom of a dead baby?


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cuddlebaby* 
I was a bit grumpy the other day when a friend called. first time interrupted my mid-morning nap (I didn't tell her that I didn't get in till one AM after work and WM, got up early to get kids off to school, then went back to bed), she was sweet and called back @ 2ish. TWO times she mentioned my nap, after saying, "I sure do wish my baby (who is 7 months) would sleep!" so I actually said to her the title line. I think I was rude. I feel bad for it. But then again why would she go on and on about such a thing to a mom of a dead baby?

Man, I know it's evil... but I've thought things like this, too. Esp reading about new mamas complaining about lack of sleep or leaking milk or colicky babies. I would take any and all of those over a dead one.


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## rsummer (Oct 27, 2006)

Cheers and welcome to the "I can only be gracious for so long" Club. Although I've never actually uttered that line, I could see myself saying it, and like you, regretting it. But don't worry about it, some people need to be reminded to be sensitive.


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## amberchap (Jan 14, 2007)

It may be a little rude but I wish I had the nerve to tell things like that to people. Sometimes I wish they understood how them complaining of how sick they are of being pregnant or whining about the work babies require to a mother who recently lost her pregnancy and baby stings. I know having a baby isn't easy but all I wish for is to have my babies here in my arms but instead I deal with hearth ache and grief because they aren't.


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## Jules09 (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm sure most of us here would at least be thinking what you responded with, if not saying it. At least your friend now knows how much you're continuing to hurt over your loss.


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

I call this playing the dead baby card, & sometimes, it is just what you have to do. Hugs to you.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm glad you had the courage to say that. It might not be the socially acceptable thing to say, but so is not having the baby you hoped and planned for.


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## ApplePieBaby (Jun 15, 2006)

Sometimes people need to hear it bluntly like that. I think we've all either said or thought similar things many times.


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## fazer6 (Jan 26, 2009)

When I was in intensive care and Isabel was on the ventilator and now we know she was brain dead I remember looking at crying babys feeling so jealous. A crying baby is a live baby.

I think when you go through all this you do become senstive to certain things and just wish people didn't talk about how awful it is to not get any sleep. I'd trade no sleep for a baby that's alive and crying any day.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

There are times I've thought something similar when I hear of friends complaining about their babies.


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## Manessa (Feb 24, 2003)

This is so hard. I have a friend who is pregnant, and it's hard to listen to her go on, and on, and on about how sick she is. I'm very close to using a line like yours, I think it's the only thing that may work. Also, I teach preschool, and one day a pregnant mom had to go home because she was feeling ill. Another mother that was co-oping in the class said "oh can you imagine being 23 weeks pregnant and working in this hot room? No wonder she's sick." I did tell her exactly what I thought...that if I hadn't lost my baby I would have been 34 weeks (at that time) and I wish that I was pregnant and working in this hot room! She didn't say much, but I think she realized that it was a very insensitive comment. I think some people have a hard time putting 2 and 2 together. Right now, I have very little patience for those people.


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## mamacita angelica (Oct 6, 2006)

sometimes the blunt way is the only way. i'm sure she never realized how insensitive she had been until you said it.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I got here from new posts. I've never experienced your kind of loss, but a friend of mine lost a baby to SIDS shortly before my younger boy was born, so I can understand a bit.

I'm not at all downplaying what you mamas go through, and I do think the OP's friend was ridiculously insensitive, to mention it _several_ times the way she did.

But I do think that people tend to get wrapped up in their own lives. I remember when I was going through a painful divorce, it's all I could think about. If a friend complained about what a jerk her husband was being, I would think to myself that she should be glad he was only forgetting to cut the grass instead of sleeping with his co-worker. She was being self-aborbed, but then so was I; my personal issues didn't negate her personal issues. Her comments might have been deemed insensitive, but I was being hypersensitive.

Honestly, I found it so difficult to be around my friend who lost her baby that our friendship kind of dissolved after a while. And it's a shame because it's when she needed support the most. But it was almost like I was being made to feel guilty for having a healthy baby. I had no "right" to complain about being tired or stressed or anything, because my baby had lived. That's not fair, either. Everybody has their own things to deal with. I think people are usually not going out of their way to be insensitive. They're just sharing their own lives with the people they know, and when a friend suffers a trauma, it can be really difficult to constantly walk on eggshells.

Real friendship should not be a contest about who is suffering more. Maybe the OP's friend is just not a very good friend in general, or maybe she just wasn't thinking. At any rate, the comment that was given back to her should give her pause.


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## zonapellucida (Jul 16, 2004)

I bet that shut her up! There are so many ways people are indiferent to others feelings and I always find complaining about a baby to a mama with losses one of them.

AMEN

"Real friendship should not be a contest about who is suffering more. Maybe the OP's friend is just not a very good friend in general, or maybe she just wasn't thinking. At any rate, the comment that was given back to her should give her pause."








and I wouldn't feel badly.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
She was being self-absorbed, but then so was I; my personal issues didn't negate her personal issues. Her comments might have been deemed insensitive, but I was being hypersensitive.

<snip> Everybody has their own things to deal with. I think people are usually not going out of their way to be insensitive. <snip> Real friendship should not be a contest about who is suffering more.

Great post!


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## Emerging butterfly (May 7, 2009)

Of course it's hard to hear or see anyone complain about how much work their baby is when you would give anything to be in the same place...and yet you know that if you had gotton that sweet opportunity to care for your baby...you'd be tired and overwhelmed at times too..it isn't that you don't know that...it's that the place you are HURTS; and pain is overwhelmingly blinding. You aren't a mean friend..your an honest friend. You don't feel like chatting about how much it sucks to _not_ get to sleep when you have a little one because you feel how much it sucks to have to sleep, forever, _without_ your little one. If she is a good friend..she will understand...


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## soulshine (Feb 2, 2007)

2xy- responding to the idea that 'people tend to get wrapped up in their own lives'...

having your baby die, losing a child, this is about the worst thing that can happen to a person... no doubt. what a person goes thru in the aftermath of that loss, the grieving and the adjustment to the 'new life' that you are dealt, it is NOT getting wrapped up in your own life. its just not the same thing.

it goes back to the fact that unless it had happened to you, you are never going to understand what it is to walk that path. hearing others complain about all of the normal things that babies do, when they are alive... it can be a bit much for a mother who has had her baby die. its so tacky that her friend complained, in my opinion, but so many people just don't think before they open their mouths. and, there is no comparing suffering... its true... but i just have to think that having your baby die is much worse than any and every little thing that happens when your baby lives. no comparison, its so true.

the reason this forum is such a good place for women who have lost babies, is that they can come hear and say things like 'it hurt my feelings that my friend complained about her living baby when my baby died'... without having to hear anyone tell them anything but _support_.

cuddlebaby,
when things like this have happened to me, i tend to keep my thoughts to myself, because i am so afraid of what will come out of my mouth if i actually form the words in my head! i think that if you choose to say what's on your mind, that is so perfectly fine too! i wish i had said what you told your friend, so many times. and i have thought some dark thoughts. my own sister was having issues with post partum depression, and all i could think was 'well, that's really too bad, but at least her baby didn't die'. i understood, deep down, that what she was going thru was hard, but juxtaposed onto my own loss, my son dying, i just could not have any capacity for compassion for her issues. i would never tell anyone in my real life that, because they wouldn't understand... they may think i was being self-centered, or 'too wrapped up in myself'... that's why i save it for places like this forum... other moms who've lost their babies will understand what it is like to have these vile thoughts and feelings on top of losing your baby... its not too fun! you feel rude and grumpy and then guilty for feeling it. i am sorry your friend was without a clue and hurt your feelings.


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## Amy&4girls (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm sorry.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Honestly, I found it so difficult to be around my friend who lost her baby that our friendship kind of dissolved after a while. And it's a shame because it's when she needed support the most. But it was almost like I was being made to feel guilty for having a healthy baby. I had no "right" to complain about being tired or stressed or anything, because my baby had lived. That's not fair, either. Everybody has their own things to deal with. I think people are usually not going out of their way to be insensitive. They're just sharing their own lives with the people they know, and when a friend suffers a trauma, it can be really difficult to constantly walk on eggshells.

To me, it's not about "walking on eggshells," it's about picking your audience. Even in the depths of my sorrow over Soren, I try not to talk too much about it to my friends who are going through infertility (unless they specifically ask). Why? Because, as awful as this is, I also remember the awfulness of not knowing if I could even get pregnant to begin with. And maybe that's the difference, I have experienced infertility and know the pain of it and, so, I am (or try to be) sensitive to those going through it. Although, I have to say, I haven't been through a divorce (other than my parents) but I don't complain about my DH to my friend who is going through a divorce, either.

I don't know, everyone's different. There may be some women who could go through losing a baby and be genuinely okay hearing a friend complain about the woes of new motherhood. I am not, myself, currently one of them and, thus far, my friends have been more than respectful of that. I think you have to meet people where they're at in order to maintain friendships in the long term and "where they are at" is going to vary over the course of the friendship. I don't expect a friend going through a difficult loss of a certain type (divorce, infertility, babyloss, loss of a parent, etc.) to be there for me on issues that directly intersect with their loss. And I don't think that requiring sensitivity over a difficult loss makes anyone a "bad friend." But I do think that some friendships are just meant to meet a specific need at a specific time and can't swell and shrink in the way that longterm friendships need to in order to survive and that's okay, too.

Don't get me wrong, there are some truly selfish and self-involved people out there who also go through difficult times, but to me, that's where looking at the big picture comes in. Is this person a generally selfish, self-invovled person, or are they just a generally good, caring friend who is going through a time of great emotional need?


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I'm so sorry your friend was so insensative! I've suffered through totally heartless moments from friends where I wanted to say something to that degree, but never did. I think it took A LOT for you to say that to her, and I hope she learns some compassion about what she says from now on. I hope she remembers HOW hurt you are! Lots of people tend to forget how hurt someone is because it's not their life- and that seems to be your friend.

Blessings to all you mommas that have been in this moment- it's not a nice moment to be in


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## Sonnet (Mar 4, 2009)

When my lover committed suicide I remember hearing other people complaining about their men and thinking 'You don't know how lucky you are'. Still, when friends get all knotted up over their divorces the thing I DON'T say is 'It could be SO, so, so much worse'.

The thing I realized was that they have their lives and I have mine. I hoped they would be sensitive to my pain - but it would have been selfish and childish of me to immediately lash out anytime anyone mentioned their relationship with 'Well, at least your man isn't in an URN on your mantlepiece!'

Yes, we're in pain. Yes, Mother's Day sucks this year. Yes, our arms and wombs are empty and aching. But we're not the only people in the world. Life goes on, and we have no idea what other people have gone through that WE'VE been insensitive to. Sometimes I cringe on here when I see women who already have children and have lost their most recent child being unable to be happy for their previously infertile friend's first pregnancy; after all, from HER point of view at least you HAVE a child to love, even if you've also lost one.

It's very difficult to see the world from anyone else's perspective when yours is full of pain... but it helps to remember that you're not the only one, and your pain isn't the only kind.


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## rsummer (Oct 27, 2006)

mischievium said:


> To me, it's not about "walking on eggshells," it's about picking your audience.
> 
> 
> > This is so true... Mom's of live babies have a right to express frustration with sleeping 4 hours a night... That sucks. Legitimately sucks. But understand that our ability to empathize with that also sucks, hence the ever so slightly over the top dead baby comment.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:

what a person goes thru in the aftermath of that loss, the grieving and the adjustment to the 'new life' that you are dealt, it is NOT getting wrapped up in your own life. its just not the same thing.
It's not at all.

The reality is that people can get over someone else's loss in a week. (That's actually a statistic... believe it or not...







) They can get over (i.e. they're functional, for the most part) their OWN loss, if it's not the death of an immediate family member, in about 30 days. If it is the death of an immediate family member, that time period is extended to about six months.

When the death is the death of a child, that time period extends to 18 months to 2 years. And beyond.

You can see the problem here. People get wrapped up in their own lives very quickly after someone else's loss... and have seriously warped expectations about a baby-loss mama's ability to "get over it." Most people judge a baby-loss mama's functionality by the "usual" stats - a month to six... and you should be able to handle a comment like that, right?

That's most people's experience and expectation about loss...

Except... no. This loss goes deeper. It just does. It takes longer to heal from. It's like the difference between getting hit by a Yugo or a Mack Truck. Both hurt like hell, but the latter is gonna leave you in traction and have you going to physical therapy a lot longer...

So while it's true that people get wrapped up in their own concerns and lives - we all do - the reality is that a baby-loss mama is at a serious disadvantage, because she's expected to be able to "deal" a lot sooner than she's actually ready to.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

thanks everyone for your thoughts. it helps SOOO much and I needed it. a lot. really.

MI your words are big. huge. very true.

sometimes it helps to get people to see situations from perspectives other than their own. It doesn't take the pain away though. Grief shared helps to lighten the load just a little.

hugs again to everyone. Happy (or what it is) Mothers' day. you are not alone.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sonnet* 
When my lover committed suicide I remember hearing other people complaining about their men and thinking 'You don't know how lucky you are'. Still, when friends get all knotted up over their divorces the thing I DON'T say is 'It could be SO, so, so much worse'.


i am so sorry sonnet.







s. i can relate to this-not trying to get off topic-but my ex and i were together from when i was 16-20 years old. he wasn't very healthy when we decided to split (emotionally) and i really thought he was capable of committing suicide.







he didn't and he is better now, but that would have just torn me apart and i was very worried that he might. thankful he was able to get better, but i really feel for you!
on another note-a friend of mine hears about our trips we take and our nights at the pub with friends here in spain and always says, 'man you guys got the life'. ummm not really. we are missing a piece of our lives. i wanted to say to say that too, 'if you had dead babies you would be able to travel too or go out to the pub'. they have 2 kids.
i wouldn't say it, but i understand the need to, the urge to tell it like it is. we are NOT lucky. we are NOT fortunate to be able to go out and have drinks or travel around. we would rather be nursing our baby and staying at home on weekends. but such is life and we DO make the best of it.


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## enigo (Mar 11, 2009)

How insensitive, she probably realized immediately afterwards what a dolt she was.
I found it difficult on my end after having my mc to be supportive of my friend who was still preg. (Due next wk). I mean, we could no longer talk about preg stuff, and I certainly didn't want to freak her out with my traumatic mc story. She didn't know what to say to me either.
I'm so glad I found MDC boards. THere are so many wonderful supportive women on here, I don't know what I would have done if I had to go through this alone.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
It's not at all.

The reality is that people can get over someone else's loss in a week. (That's actually a statistic... believe it or not...







) They can get over (i.e. they're functional, for the most part) their OWN loss, if it's not the death of an immediate family member, in about 30 days. If it is the death of an immediate family member, that time period is extended to about six months.

When the death is the death of a child, that time period extends to 18 months to 2 years. And beyond.

You can see the problem here. People get wrapped up in their own lives very quickly after someone else's loss... and have seriously warped expectations about a baby-loss mama's ability to "get over it." Most people judge a baby-loss mama's functionality by the "usual" stats - a month to six... and you should be able to handle a comment like that, right?

That's most people's experience and expectation about loss...

Except... no. This loss goes deeper. It just does. It takes longer to heal from. It's like the difference between getting hit by a Yugo or a Mack Truck. Both hurt like hell, but the latter is gonna leave you in traction and have you going to physical therapy a lot longer...

So while it's true that people get wrapped up in their own concerns and lives - we all do - the reality is that a baby-loss mama is at a serious disadvantage, because she's expected to be able to "deal" a lot sooner than she's actually ready to.

this is spot on.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
It's not at all.

The reality is that people can get over someone else's loss in a week. (That's actually a statistic... believe it or not...







) They can get over (i.e. they're functional, for the most part) their OWN loss, if it's not the death of an immediate family member, in about 30 days. If it is the death of an immediate family member, that time period is extended to about six months.

When the death is the death of a child, that time period extends to 18 months to 2 years. And beyond..


Too add to it, I did some research on this for my bereavement counseling class and I chose to do the research on stillbirth grief. The research shows that mothers who lose their infants before birth or shortly after can show acute grief reactions for several years and many show clinical grief reactions at least part of every year for a decade or even more. There was even research that showed people who were in their senior years still grieved the loss of their infants 50 years prior at certain parts of the year.

So, while other people may not realize it if they haven't experienced it, the loss of an infant for a mother is extremely profound and will continue to effect that woman for the rest of her life...


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## Sonnet (Mar 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
They can get over (i.e. they're functional, for the most part) their OWN loss, if it's not the death of an immediate family member, in about 30 days. If it is the death of an immediate family member, that time period is extended to about six months.

When the death is the death of a child, that time period extends to 18 months to 2 years. And beyond.

See, this is why it's dangerous to compare your experience to anyone else's. The idea that some people don't suffer the rest of their lives after losing an immediate family member is just silly. It took me more than 3 years to even feel like I could be part of the world in any significant fashion after the loss of my lover. It's just not fair to compare. The only thing to do is to try to be sensitive to everyone and respond to how they actually FEEL instead of deciding how they SHOULD feel compared to how WE feel.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sonnet* 
respond to how they actually FEEL instead of deciding how they SHOULD feel compared to how WE feel. [/COLOR][/FONT]

yeah this. very important. I'm sorry about both of your losses Sonnet. If everyone here would follow your advice there would be no more comparing grief stuff. like you said, we are all different and experience everything (especially loss) different. none of it is wrong.


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## zuzunel09 (Mar 19, 2009)

This is my first visit to the Pregnancy Loss forum, and it's an eye-opener. Five minutes ago I was complaining inside my head about heartburn and how expensive cribs are. Now, I feel very grateful to be pregnant. I'm sorry for your loss, and hope never to be one of those moms on the other end of the phone complaining about spit-up on my shoulder.


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