# I don't want to spank!



## farmingmama80 (May 21, 2014)

Hello, I am new here, a mom to a 2 year old and just about 4 month old. My hubby works away for a month at a time and we have a farm that I am solely responsible for when he is away. Luckily, I get to be a stay at home mom, but as you all know, that in itself is a full time job! We have decided to downsize the farm, as it is just too hard to do with the 2 kids now.

My struggle is with my temper....it is short, and I am feeling so guilty for it! My kids are really good. But, when my 2yr old is acting up, or not listening, I sometimes lose my cool with her, and I have smacked her butt. I don't want to do that! I am in the process of teaching her we don't hit people, her little bro for example, so if I hit her, what message does that send??!!

I guess, what I am asking, is how do you deal with anger...your own! I know I can't be alone in this. I do time outs, short ones as she is little, and she is good about that. But, sometimes, mostly when she is tires, she ignores me when we are out doing chores, and I have to keep tabs on her, she can't be wandering all over! She will laugh, and try to make a game of it, but we have to get in to feed/change the baby. I feel bad that I rush her, I love that she wants to play with mama, but with a 4 month old screaming because we've been out for an hour feeding and watering...I don't like telling her I have to deal with him, now, its like I am telling her that she is not important. So, I get short with her.

But, also, when she is getting tired, she can get rough with her brother. I don't leave them together unsupervised, of course, but if I am changing them, and she comes to the change table to help, she sometimes squeezes his hand, or foot, and I can tell she is doing it hard, he just laughs at her though! Today, I was getting a wash cloth to clean him, and she started patting his tummy, hard! I lost it and spanked her bum and put her in the corner, all the while saying we don't hit...what sense did I make?!?!

I have to work on my counting to 10, or something. How do you guys with more than one little one deal with this?!

Thanks in advance from a guilty, frustrated mom.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

To be more effective, rather than focusing on what you don't want, focus on what you want from your 2 year old.

You want kind and helpful behavior in regards to the little one. Here's how to cause kind and helpful behavior:

http://www.netmums.com/parenting-support/parenting-advice/netmums-parenting-course-about-the-courses/getting-the-best-part-2

Give your 2 year old lots of positive feedback for being kind and helpful. Say specifically what she did that was kind and helpful rather than using generic praise like "good job". Get close, touch, be enthusiastic when you give positive feedback. Give positive feedback immediately when you catch her doing good or when she complies with a request. Notice and give positive feedback for the smallest acts that are kind or helpful, don't take any wanted behavior for granted. Make sure the feedback is purely positive, don't caboose any criticism on the end, no "but...".

PS: Using all the methods in the whole Netmums parenting course will make a big difference:

http://www.netmums.com/parenting-support/parenting-advice/netmums-parenting-course-about-the-courses


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

FM, I think that if you are to the point where you are spanking, there are some other discipline approaches I would consider before spanking, yk?

I consider discipline to be a sort of spectrum of ideals. Ideally, we just model good behavior and never need to correct or anything, right? Ha! After that is talking and explaining. Then a slew of things like "playful parenting" or "praise/rewards". You have things like charts (which would not work for a 2 year old)... and on and on. There is punishment there too. Time outs, removing privileges, and etc.

Other things that I would consider are measures to get through daily life. that is also a spectrum. Ideally we just live this ideally emotionally healthy lifestyle. But sometimes our lives don't accommodate that. I would consider TV, for instance, if I had a time of day that really wrecked my patience to the point of spanking. Or if that is out of the question, maybe a snack drawer where the 2 year old could help herself to a healthy treat while you care for the baby.

Other thoughts... what about a water/sand sensory table that your 2 year old can play with outside alone?

I guess I don't really have any tips for controlling temper but more tips for how to avoid triggers. That is how I approach it.

One more thought...

Your 2 year old is probably approaching a "I can help" phase. This is the greatest phase ever if parents can approach it with a bit of extra energy to enable the child. I would consider making diaper changes a time where she feels super useful. Maybe even empty a bottle of baby powder and allow her to be the shaker. You can keep it like way on the other side of the room so it's a lot of "work" for her to do. She can put the dirty diaper in the bin, stuff like that.

I think the reward for her comes from helping and being part of the family. More on that below...



tadamsmar said:


> Give your 2 year old lots of positive feedback for being kind and helpful. Say specifically what she did that was kind and helpful rather than using generic praise like "good job". Get close, touch, be enthusiastic when you give positive feedback. Give positive feedback immediately when you catch her doing good or when she complies with a request. Notice and give positive feedback for the smallest acts that are kind or helpful, don't take any wanted behavior for granted.


I wanted to respond to this because it relates to some of the advice I gave above.

I think that it's great that praise in this manner works well for your family, Tadamsmar. And I think there is a lot to the link you provided in terms of being conscious as a parent of the level of praise vs. criticism we give to our children.

That said, I think the thought process against praise as a discipline strategy goes beyond the idea that praise should be specific.

I think that the idea that kids need our feedback when they are cooperative can undermine our confidence in their natural instinct to behave in pro-social ways.

I have a 3 year old and she does not need praise to behave. In fact, I have occasionally just LOVED something she has done and have decided that rather than praise she would benefit more from my sincere internal acknowledgement that "of course she did that - she is a lovely child who wants to participate in this world."

In the example above of setting a 2 year up to be helpful during diaper changes, I think praise added would really take way from the intrinsic motivation of being helpful and part of the unit.

This does not remove any opportunity for praise - I do praise my children when I am genuinely inclined to do so, but I feel like they do not need my constant feedback.

So, another side to that idea...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

farmingmama80 said:


> But, also, when she is getting tired, she can get rough with her brother. I don't leave them together unsupervised, of course, but if I am changing them, and she comes to the change table to help, she sometimes squeezes his hand, or foot, and I can tell she is doing it hard, he just laughs at her though! Today, I was getting a wash cloth to clean him, and she started patting his tummy, hard! I lost it and spanked her bum and put her in the corner, all the while saying we don't hit...what sense did I make?!?!


I can totally understand the protective feeling you had towards you infant. I would say that it's totally fine to physically remove your toddler from the diaper changing (or whatever) if she is rough with your infant. You are modeling to her that we protect the youngest, most vulnerable among us.

Rather than hit or lecture, though, I think it would be better to just be very direct.

"I saw you press on his belly. I am not going to let you do that." And move her away without more conversation.

Once you have established consistent gentleness with the baby, I think you may experiment with trusting your 2 year old to be sort-of unsupervised with the toddler. Sometimes I think this level of confidence in our kids really just magically works to encourage the behavior we want to see.

You could even encourage that a little by asking the toddler to watch the baby for a second (once you have broken the habit of being rough).


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## BushMama83 (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi Farming Mama! You've gotten some great sggestions for keeping your toddler busy and for alternatives to spanking. I wanted to respond to your comments about your anger and subsequent guilty feelings...because I am in the thick of dealing with that myself!

It sounds like you have a whole lot on your plate right now. Running a farm alone with a 2 yo and an infant can't be easy! Is there any way you could get some outside help, either with the farm chores or with the kids? I find that as my own workload increases, my patience and tolerance for my toddler decreases! 

When my temper flares, I've been trying a few different things. Now that it's warm outside, I will often tell my toddler that Mommy needs a time out. I'll take the baby outside and we'll take a quick walk down to the garden, or even just sit on the porch in the sun. Then, I self-talk. Instead of saying to myself what I'm NOT going to do, I tell myself how I want to be: "I'm going to be patient. I'm going to be kind, gentle, etc" I've realized that aside from my toddler hurting the baby, my main trigger is a feeling of having no control. So I remind myself that while I can't ever control another person, what I can control are my own actions. I choose how to react. It's sometimes hard to make the gentle choice, though! 

As for the guilty feelings, go easy on yourself. You're only human. Apologize to your toddler when you lose it, and try to do better next time. It's a lifelong process!

Hope that helps. :smile:


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> This does not remove any opportunity for praise - I do praise my children when I am genuinely inclined to do so, but I feel like they do not need my constant feedback.
> 
> So, another side to that idea...


Research shows that constant praise (or constant reinforcement regardless of what form it takes) interferes with lasting behavior change. It creates a "brittle" habit, the wanted behavior quickly goes away if the reinforcement stops. So, the sort of pattern of praise you are using is required to make a habit robust. Also, it's important to be genuine. Older kids, in particular, see though fakey praise. (Constant reinforcement can nbe useful when you are first instilling a habit, but it's counter-productive later.)

Anyway parental attention is the important reinforcer. Praise is not needed. There would be fewer behavior problems if parents understood that even negative attention is a reinforcer of unwanted behavior.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Research shows that constant praise (or constant reinforcement regardless of what form it takes) interferes with lasting behavior change. It creates a "brittle" habit, the wanted behavior quickly goes away if the reinforcement stops.


Yes, I agree. Can you explain a little how this comment above relates to your first post that seemed to suggest that consistent positive feedback is an advisable long-term solution for addressing behavior challenges?

Is it the idea that positive feedback (praise?) will help move a child through a challenging stage until they naturally grow out of a habit?

I agree too, Bushmom, that we do need to take it easy on ourselves. I think a "parent time out" is a great solution for when tempers flair. This is, again, some good modeling. What do you do when you are having trouble keeping perspective -- you separate your own self from the situation. Breathe. All of that. When we learn to do that for ourselves, we teach our children those same habits.

A word on "crying"... I do think that a child needing to have a cry because mom/dad/caregiver is taking care of something that takes president at that moment is a fine thing. It's HARD to hear our babies cry but I think the alternative of pushing ourselves to the breaking point to avoid it is not the choice to make.

Rather, I would take a the posture of, "I'm sorry you are sad/angry right now but I know you will be ok for a bit while I take care of your sibling."


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Anyway parental attention is the important reinforcer. Praise is not needed. There would be fewer behavior problems if parents understood that even negative attention is a reinforcer of unwanted behavior.


To the point of negative attention - I do agree. Although I generally don't agree that "Praise is Magic" (from the link you gave), I do think that if a parent is inclined to give frequent feedback, I suppose they should also give positive.

What I am saying (and maybe this wasn't clear in my first post) is that I think most kids know what is pro-social behavior and what isn't. I don't think they need our feedback (at all) as much as many parent and behaviorists seem to think.

In general I think parents tend to talk too much.

If the advice is "don't be so critical", I totally agree. If the advice is "balance criticism with praise", I vote - just do the first thing and leave the praise for those genuine moments - absent of trying to influence behavior (although perhaps aware that this is sometimes a bonus).


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> Yes, I agree. Can you explain a little how this comment above relates to your first post that seemed to suggest that consistent positive feedback is an advisable long-term solution for addressing behavior challenges?


I meant as a first step. The first step is catch them being good and give positive attention, at that stage provide lots of consistent reinforced practice. Later, fade the reinforcement, but I did not include that, probably should have included it.



> Is it the idea that positive feedback (praise?) will help move a child through a challenging stage until they naturally grow out of a habit?


It need not be praise.

The idea is the change the a habit that is unwanted using methods that are gentile and positive.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> The idea is the change the a habit that is unwanted using methods that are gentile and positive.


I do agree that breaking a bad habit (in the OP's case ungentle behavior to the infant sibling) is really important. I guess it depends on how one defines reinforcement. Certainly the suggestion to give the toddler jobs is a reinforcer - ie. more attention, involvement, and etc. That is also the sort that had the added benefit of not having to be phased out but, rather, it becomes a foundation for working together.


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## silkworm (Jul 1, 2014)

Parenting with love and logic has worked for us. It stresses letting you as the parent calm down so you don't "punish", as opposed to correcting the child. It also allows the kiddo to choose their own consequences. If they don't eat what's on their plate, then they can either go hungry or fix a sandwich (example from our house).


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

farmingmama80 said:


> Hello, I am new here, a mom to a 2 year old and just about 4 month old. My hubby works away for a month at a time and we have a farm that I am solely responsible for when he is away. Luckily, I get to be a stay at home mom, but as you all know, that in itself is a full time job! We have decided to downsize the farm, as it is just too hard to do with the 2 kids now.
> 
> My struggle is with my temper....it is short, and I am feeling so guilty for it! My kids are really good. But, when my 2yr old is acting up, or not listening, I sometimes lose my cool with her, and I have smacked her butt. I don't want to do that! I am in the process of teaching her we don't hit people, her little bro for example, so if I hit her, what message does that send??!!


That it's OK to hurt someone when you want REVENGE!



> I guess, what I am asking, is how do you deal with anger...your own!


I believe it begins with good self esteem/respect. Once you feel good about your self, you're less likely to become hurt and/or humiliated and the lash out.



> But, also, when she is getting tired, she can get rough with her brother. I don't leave them together unsupervised, of course, but if I am changing them, and she comes to the change table to help, she sometimes squeezes his hand, or foot, and I can tell she is doing it hard, he just laughs at her though! Today, I was getting a wash cloth to clean him, and she started patting his tummy, hard!


Unless and older child is carefully taught and conditioned to lovingly and happily accept a newbie into THEIR family, anger and vengeance will emerge! She doesn't like the baby and sees it as a menacing, unwelcome, resented INVADER so she will be out to get him all she can UNLESS you help her lovingly accept him ASAP.



> I lost it and spanked her bum and put her in the corner, all the while saying we don't hit...what sense did I make?!?!


NONE AT ALL! You just reinforced her inner reasons for hating the unwelcome invader and giving her even more reasons to PUNISH the baby as much as possible - especially when you are not there to hurt her back!



> I have to work on my counting to 10, or something. How do you guys with more than one little one deal with this?!


I'd do whatever it takes to HELP my kids lovingly accept each other from day one, starting with the oldest kid. I'd go to parenting classes (online) or a counselor to help with the unresolved issues within me that cause me to loose it and then I'd work like a daemon to prevent my kids from going through the sibling horror that my brother and I went through thanks to the extreme FAILURES of our own parents.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Some things I do to deal with anger when I'm being provoked: Breathe deeply; resist speaking until I have taken one full breath in and out. Think, "What would Mister Rogers say?" and try to say it in that kind of gentle, reasonable voice. Notice what I am afraid of and decide how to handle it--more about that below. Give myself a time-out like BushMama described. Think, "We are all in this together. What do we most need now?" and try to get us what we need, especially if it's food or water which can quickly make a difference in mood. Describe the unwanted behavior very briefly and then focus on talking about the desired behavior (which shifts MY focus as well as reducing the child's defensiveness). Notice that my child is really only very small and remember that I am powerful.

About fear: Often, when I get angry at someone, it's because I'm afraid of something and I resent the other person either for "making" me afraid with her behavior or for failing to save me from the thing I fear. It can really help to step back from the anger to the fear and address the fear. (There's a lot about this in Parent Effectiveness Training.) If what you fear is that your child will hurt herself or her brother, you address the fear by quickly and firmly stopping what she's doing and then firmly stating the facts: "That tool is sharp and could hurt you. It is not a toy." If what you fear is being so responsible for so much all alone, part of your anger is really at your husband for not being there, and it's not fair to take that out on your child or even to tell her about it as if you expect her to help or empathize; instead, acknowledge the fear to yourself and think about how to feel better, and say aloud, "Wow, I'm tired and cold! When we get this done, we can have a warm drink and sit under a blanket. I'm looking forward to that. Just two more turnips before we are done," or whatever. I don't know about you, but when I feel abandoned and too much is expected of me, I tend to panic and make myself work harder with no comfort, which only dials up my resentment so that I feel justified in speaking angrily at my companions and/or complaining to them about someone not present who isn't pulling his weight. It's hard for me to shut that off and think about what will be good for me and believe that I deserve it, but when I do, it works out well--especially if my child needed the same thing but hadn't realized it yet and was getting angry back at me because of his own unfilled needs.



> she ignores me when we are out doing chores, and I have to keep tabs on her, she can't be wandering all over!


If possible, shift the baby to one arm and grab your daughter with the other. Crouch down to her level, hold her firmly, and say, "You need to stay near me." Sometimes it helps (both of you) to follow this up with affectionate nuzzling and, "...because I love you so much!" Whether you do that or skip it, the next step is, "Let's do X together!" as you move on to your next task.



> I don't like telling her I have to deal with him, now, its like I am telling her that she is not important. So, I get short with her.


I'm the big sister of a brother 2 years younger. I vividly remember some times when I felt like I was not important because Mama was busy with the baby. But I don't think any of those came from Mama simply telling me what the baby needed. It was when she got short with me--when she spoke dismissively, angrily, as if she were saying, "You and I both know you're not important, so stop getting in my way with your stupid needs!"--that I really felt bad, as if I must truly be undeserving and unloved. It sounds like you may be trying to protect her from the truth (baby's needs have to be met first) for fear of hurting her feelings, but the strain of trying to keep that up makes you snap. Being honest probably will be less hurtful to her in the long run.

My kids are 9 years apart, so the older one understands about the baby's needs much more than a 2-year-old does, but still there are times when he gets upset because I was just about to do something with him but now she needs to nurse. At those times, it helps to talk about how when he was a baby, I dropped everything to meet HIS needs. It's kind of like those signs in doctor's offices: "Be patient. You too will get the same careful service." We each have our turn to be the baby. If your daughter is at the older end of 2, she may be able to understand this a bit.



> Today, I was getting a wash cloth to clean him, and she started patting his tummy, hard! I lost it and spanked her bum and put her in the corner, all the while saying we don't hit...what sense did I make?!?!


Well, not much sense--it's good that you recognize that! I think it's right to take her away from him physically and to tell her not to do that. But the consequence for hitting someone should not be getting hit yourself; instead, because people don't like to be near someone who is hitting, the consequence is being apart from people. In the corner of the same room is far enough away for a 2-year-old. After you've both calmed down, you can talk about gentle touches and have her practice nice ways to touch the baby.

:Hug It's been a few months since you posted. I hope things are getting better now!


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## SamuelCunningham (Dec 3, 2014)

Hello,
I don't wish to intrude on such a touchy discussion.
However, I am currently a student studying behaviorism regarding the subject of spanking and would really appreciate it if a few mothers could do a very short survey for me. There are only 4 questions and it would be very beneficial for my research. And it's all confidential! Thankyou very much.
Link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/T72Q7YZ


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I would expect your survey results would be pretty skewed if you are relying on people from this board to participate.



SamuelCunningham said:


> Hello,
> I don't wish to intrude on such a touchy discussion.
> However, I am currently a student studying behaviorism regarding the subject of spanking and would really appreciate it if a few mothers could do a very short survey for me. There are only 4 questions and it would be very beneficial for my research. And it's all confidential! Thankyou very much.
> Link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/T72Q7YZ


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