# are you friends with people who spank?



## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

In the past year I discovered two moms that I was hanging out with (not deep friendships, but the kids played together, I like them) were spanking their kids! Once she took the child in and I heard the wack (so did my dd) he got for looking at her wrong. Neither of these moms are cruel or hit in anger, but STILL! I feel like I want to run in the opposite direction.

The other mom revealed she had been spanking him, not often but because he wasn't listening to anything else. (My mom used that line to justify whipping me with the belt)

Is this being too judgemental on my part? What do you do when you find out people are spanking?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I voted no...but then I remembered something. My neighbors cousin has a little girl that plays with Ellie when they are over. I believe that she spanks. I am pretty sure she spanked the little girl when she was a toddler for having a tantrum







I am not sure what book she read that said that was helpful







:
I don't think any of my good friends spank...but I am sure some people I know have. I was spanked on occassion Monica, but not with a belt (I am sad for you) but a wooden spoon. It just left me feeling helpless and mad. I don't think you are being judgemental, I think it is like a comfort level thing. There are many parenting things that fall into that category.
Did something happen with a friend to make you think of this?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I voted "other." I don't know ppl who spank--or should I say, that I know of.

But, I'm running into this sort of dilemma, too. There are a number of ppl in my Mom's Group who I have gotten to really like. Now that our children are reaching toddlerhood I am seeing some glaring differences in our parenting philosophies and techniques. I still really like them, and plan to remain friends with them, but, I sense that our differences are already causing some unspoken tension. I do feel surprised and "let down" by some of the ways they treat their children, which I don't see as being respectful or compassionate. It's hard to reconcile my feelings for this and it is something that I've been thinking about for a few months, now--so, thanks for the opportunity to discuss!


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

If the friends spanked as a primary means of discipline, in front of my children or were generally not respectful to their dc then no, I could not hang out with them.

If they confided in me that they do spank on occassion, I would probably help them find other stratagies, give them a book and offer to watch their dc if they felt stressed. I could continue a friendship in this scenario.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I have some friends and family members who spank but they don't spank often and know not to spank around me because I get emotional about it.

Not like our old nasty church in which children were commonly spanked and spanked within earshot (as in privately but you could hear the hits and the screams of the beaten children) I couldn't tolerate that...not at this point in my life.

Debra Baker


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by monkey's mom_
*I voted "other." I don't know ppl who spank--or should I say, that I know of.

But, I'm running into this sort of dilemma, too. There are a number of ppl in my Mom's Group who I have gotten to really like. Now that our children are reaching toddlerhood I am seeing some glaring differences in our parenting philosophies and techniques. I still really like them, and plan to remain friends with them, but, I sense that our differences are already causing some unspoken tension. I do feel surprised and "let down" by some of the ways they treat their children, which I don't see as being respectful or compassionate. It's hard to reconcile my feelings for this and it is something that I've been thinking about for a few months, now--so, thanks for the opportunity to discuss!*
yes, me too.
i dont think i will remain friends with the spankers. or even with the glaringly different parenting style mamas. i just cant reconcile it. ive tried. it makes me feel sad and helpless for the kids, and i've tried and tried to change some mamas minds, but its not happening. its really unexpected too, some of my friends ive had for years and assumed they would be gentle mamas like i am, and they have turned into short-fused, dismissive, angry womyn. its sad. yes, as you said, the advent of toddlerhood really brings out the differences in parenting styles.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I have a couple of friends that spank, and there are several moms at our playgroup that do. I have remained friends with them. I have told one of them my reasons for not spanking mine, but I don't tell them they shouldn't. And when they say "Yes, but ds1's such an easy. well-behaved boy, you don't need to" I respond with the obvious "I think he's well-behaved because I don't" to which I got the "it's too late now, if I stopped spanking now it'd be nothing but bedlam" But the Mom in refence loves her girls so much and has such a warm giving heart I still love her. And as my ds's have seen her spank her girls it gives us food for thought later. And it gives them a reference for when my dh says "you want a spanking?' (Which drives me crazy, I'm afraid one day he will carry that threat out) however, ds1 replies "Mommy has a book on the shelf that says no spanking, you should read it Daddy"


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I voted "no", but I've never had to deal with that issue before.
All of my friends use GD. My best friend's husband, before she had her child, thought that a whack on the butt every now and then was no big deal. We discussed it openly and intelligently and he changed his mind.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I have 2 friends (more like aquaintances) who spank. One is very disrespectful to her children, especially her DD and is always going on and on about how "defiant" her DD is. I'm sure her DD acts differently at home, but I've never actually seen that child act defiant.







Anyway, I don't generally spend much time w/ her. I only see her when she is w/ the group of women I usually hang around w/. The other mom (which is the sister of the first mom) spanks, but not a lot.


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

This post has been edited.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I had a friend who started out basically APing, then got a divorce and started seeing a man who was fundamentalist Christian, and that was that. He convinced her that spanking children was the only way to direct them to a godly life. The last time I saw her she cheerfully took a pot and threatened one of her children with it. She assured me that she wouldn't hit hard enough to leave any marks, though.

Spanking is inhuman and inhumane. To intentionally cause another human being pain is immoral and unacceptable to me. I don't know how anyone can stand by and watch someone do that to someone else and just act like it's not a big deal. (That's how men used to be able to get away with causing their wives physical pain. Funny how that's not okay anymore, but doing it to kids is.)


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I am the only one of my friends who has achild. I know (or at least hope) my freind who is planning getting pregnant tis year wont spoank b/c she sais she totally admires me and is going to call me with ALL her questions.


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

This post has been deleted.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MaryKate_
*I was just saying as a christian I don't think it is right for me to pick my friends according to their childrearing methods.*
Why not?

You are entitled to have standards of conduct that you will tolerate in friends. Would you choose to be friends with someone who was rude or condescending? Would you befriend people who lie, cheat and steal? If you do, that is certainly your choice but there is nothing wrong with choosing to exclude certain people from your life because you don't agree with their choices of conduct - and hitting children happens to be a biggie!

I find that I just don't have a choice in this matter - I physically get nauseous and angry if I am in the presence of someone who I know hits children. I cannot be friends with people who hit their kids - period. And if it's "judgmental" to not want to witness the humiliation and abuse of children, then I am!

So the short answer is "no", I can't be friends with someone who hits their children.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

From conversation, it seems like most of the moms in my MOMS club spank for at least some offenses (their most common example example: running in the street). In the year we've been attending, we've seen one child spanked (quick smack--don't think dd registered it cause she was having her own temper tantrum at the time), and one child loudly threatened to be spanked.

The good news: they all know that I don't condone spanking (have a bumper sticker on my car :LOL ), and no one can say "oh, but your child is so easy!"--cause she is not! She is stubborn and tough and engages boys 8 inches taller than her in physical battles for toys







: . And, lots of times moms see and comment positively on how I handle tough parenting situations. The way I see it, if I had joined a group of gd'ers, then I wouldn't have an opportunity to be a positive influence!


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Here's the difference for me at least.....I know some people spank but they don't do it often and don't do it in front of me.

If the conversation comes up I will try to gently (yes, I can be gentle when I try) explain why we don't spank and some alternatives to spanking (many of these people think it's either spank or permissiveness, I'm rather strict but don't spank)

If someone was to spank in front of me I would express my discomfort. At this point in my life if I was witness to what I have experienced in the past (hearing people whipping their children in the bathroom at church) I would walk into the bathroom and either make the parent uncomfortible with my presence or just say something like, (Is everyone allright I thought there was a murder in the process to cause the discomfort) I don't think I could peacefully coexist with in your face spankings.

Gag, I'm middle-of-the road how often does that happen?

db


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

a good friend of mine spanks. so does her sister who is an acquaintance we see on occasion.

I've told her outright (i'm a kinda blunt person generally) that I don't agree with spanking, that I don't think it works/is ineffective and that I'm uncomfortable seeing it and having my children see it. I've asked her to not do it or threaten to do it when in my home. She has always respected that and pulled her son aside and quietly spoken to him if he's misbehaving (i'm guessing on occasion said 'we'll leave and you'll get a spanking). She once sent him to the corner for time out here. In HER house, she has spanked him - but at least she took him into another room so my daughter didn't see it. (tho I knew what was happenening and ended up leaving shortly after)

i think that discussion helps tho not hiding from the issue, ignoring it etc. I mean, this extremely mainstream friend has bought my medium diapers and is going to cloth diaper her daughter at home (use disposies when out) which is a HUGE step for her. She's also breastfeeding her dd and reading about bfing hoping to go TWO YEARS !?!? which is also huge for her - her son was bf till 11mos only and then went straight to cows milk.

so i guess what i'm saying is that maybe i'm influencing her a little bit with my parenting choices. She watches me interact with Zoey and maybe she sees how I do things...maybe she picks up a bit on some of the preventative things I do with her to avoid the need for any punitive discipline. In staying her friend, maybe I open her eyes and mind to alternatives to her discipline methods.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I voted "other."

While I obviously couldn't be friends with people who BEAT their children (or someone who didn't spank but yelled a lot or any other excessive, unpleasant behavior), if I were only to befriend people with (my idea of) "perfect" parenting skills, I'd have no friends. I coldn't be friends with MYSELF most of the time.


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## saturnine25 (Mar 26, 2002)

I voted "other," because for me it really depends on several factors- such as, are the friends in question generally loving and responsive to their children, are they spanking because they really aren't familiar with other, more constructive ways to handle situations? Example: I had a friend visiting once with her 2 y.o., she wanted him to take a nap in my dd's crib (which was filled to the top with toys). I took the toys out and she laid him in this unfamiliar place, walked away and shut the door behind her as he screamed. After several minutes of his screaming and my gentle suggestions that maybe he was uncomfortable or frightened, she went in, spanked him and came back out as though there was not a child who had been crying for 15 minutes in the next room. We are no longer friends. OTOH, I have another friend who is a young, somewhat inexperienced mom. She loves her dds very much and tries very hard to be a good mom, but admits she has, on occasion, resorted to a mild spanking or a tap on the hand. I totally disagree with her methods of discipline, we talk/debate over it, and she is making an effort to find more constructive ways to guide her dds, although I don't know if she'll ever be fully sold on the concept of gentle discipline. I would not consider ending our friendship at this point. SO, it really depends on the individual circumstances for me.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I voted "yes" because nearly every friend of mine has spanked one of their kids at least once. I live in Santa Cruz for the first year and a half of Aya's life. The area is very "crunchy" and most of the parents I knew were AP but almost of them had either lost it and spanked in some way or tried it purposefully out of desperation. Some spanked consciously and felt it was an acceptable and effective way to "discipline" others felt guilty and made an effort to stop. I feel that when my friends resort to hitting then they are probably at a place where they need *more* support, not less. I know that if I ever find myself in that position, I'll need my friends more than ever! I can't imagine how I would feel if they abandoned me at my worst hour.

But, I had one friend slap the hand of her DD *in front of* my DD. Had we stayed in the area I would have asked her not to do that because I would not want my DD to see that happen to her friend.

I have mixed feelings about *other people* spanking their kids. It definitely makes me uncomfortable but, OTOH, I had a lesson on childhood development, which dealt with the way that certain punishments are suitable for certain children. The teacher basically said that a rare few children can be very responsive to spankings and not be significantly "damaged" by it and that some children can tolerate yelling and others can not and so on and so on. Personally, I know many people that have said that spankings were not the "worst" disciplinary method that their parents took with them.

I try not to be too judgmental, especially about spanking that is taken very seriously by the parent and that was/is thought aboug a great deal either before, after or, preferably, both.

I remember that my mom hit me once. *I think that she deserved to be forgiven. I was the one hit and I forgave her immediately. I know that she certainly didn't deserve to loose any friends over it, especially because she probably only resorted to hitting me because she was at the end of her rope and needed some more support. I hope she had a good friend to talk to after.*

BUT, *I *do* think spanking should be illegal* and I don't want to ever hit my DC. I don't know if this is a big ol' contradiction but I feel both ways.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

double post


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I have a very dear friend who I witnessed spanking her child about 1.5 years ago. I was aghast probably on many levels, but especially b/c I had no idea she disciplned in this way. Since then, though, (actually within about 5-6 months of this incident) she made a real concerted effort to change. And spanking is not a part of their family anymore...YEAH!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I feel that when my friends resort to hitting then they are probably at a place where they need *more* support, not less.*
I voted "other" bc I don't know if any of my friends spank, but I DO know that my brother-in-law spanks. It is very disturbing to me and my dh. They live in FL (we're in NY) so we only see them once or twice a year. But even so when we experience their method of "disciplining" with time-outs and yelling and spanking, we are very sad.

Our parenting approach is opposite of theirs: we are AP with a FB and I am still nursing. They used a crib tent and CIO and she weaned by one year bc that was the deadline. Is it awful of me to think that all of this lead their son to have such demonstrably "bad" behavior (I think he is acting out for attention, and has a low self esteem, esp. when he says "I'm stupid" when he makes a mistake...). They think that this is the only way to contain his "bad" behavior and I'm sure they feel they are at the end of their rope.

I think their son and mine have equal levels of "spiritedness" but their ds may have had his spirit broken a bit from the "detachment" parenting. I guess I sound a bit judgemental but it is so sad to me to think that this poor soul has been misunderstood by his parents, who are following traditional methods by the book to do the best for their son.

ETA: I quoted IDMama bc I agree with her sentiment, and wonder how I can apply it to my B&SIL. I have referred to the Spirited Child book (saying that I thought it would help MY ds, and they might like the book, too), but I know they will never read it. And ours is not a family where you can have open discussions too easily about sticky subjects - if you KWIM.


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## mamangazelle (Apr 25, 2003)

Yes. I have two friends who I know spank. One is more an aquaintance (sp? I'm francophone







) I've never seen her do it, but she told me she does in last resort. I've seen her a lot with her children, and I know it's not her primary discipline method. She's really loving and kind to her children.
The other is a good friend. I know her husband spanks, but I don't think she does. He did it one time in front of me (the child was acting really badly, so I think he just didn't know what else to do), and I think he noticed it made all of us really uncomfortable. I don't think he does it often (I hope so).
Both are french, so maybe it has to do with the way they were raised







: They both told me they were spanked.
(By spanking, I mean a slap on the bum, over clothes, that's what it is, right?)
Since they both are older than me and have older kids, I don't feel comfortable making comments about it, even if I feel I should. Also, their kids are behaving so well most of the time, and my dd1 is, well, sometimes testing our limits







, so I feel it would only reinforce their attitude(I don't spank and I sometimes struggle with dd, so they may think I should spank)


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I am not "friends" with people who hit their children. Philosophically, I cannot reconcile myself to tending friendships with people who do not share this fundamental belief that children are to be loved, not smacked. My boys see enough of it at the grocery store to last them a lifetime. I don't care what religion someone is, spanking is a deal breaker. I'm certainly not perfect, in any way, shape or form...but I've learned the hard way that I'm unable to overlook certain things in order to maintain a friendship.

(This said after losing a friend of 24 years after I learned she was beating her 10 mo with a spatula b/c she was tired of him attempting to climb the stairs. Have you considered a baby gate? "No, he needs to learn that we are the parents, and he is the child. We make the rules. Three swats each defiance.")


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Some of the posts following mine are making me feel like I should clarify some things about what I said. I am not friends with anyone nor do I know anyone who abuses their children in the ways some of you have described. I'm not friends with anyone who uses spakings as a primary dicipline method. I did not have to stop being friends with anyone it just worked out that way.

All of my friends are good parents and good people. For the vast majority of people I call friends there is nothing they could to that would cause me to not be their friend.

I have AP parents, parent's friends and all of my friends are very good thoughtful people. 5 our 6 of my close girlfriends growing up are either social workers or teachers. The 6th is a retired social worker and is now a SAHM.

I can think of two outstanding AP mother friends who have hit their children and seriously regretted it. I would never have turned my back on them and I never will. They did not tell everyone that they "slipped" and lost control because they were incredibly embarrassed.

I wonder if some of you who have really strong feelings about remaining friends with someone who has spanked would be told about it the first place. I doubt it.

I take a strong stance against spankings but I know that people make mistakes and don't deserve to loose my friendship because of it.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

ICM, I don't think that anyone is judging you or your friends.







The OP is "are you friends with people who spank?" and I took that to mean that it is a current and regular discipline method. My best friend once spanked her dd when she ran out into the street and frankly I wasn't even upset that my dd witnessed it! It was a real eye opener for her! I certainly did not stop being friends with her either - she is a good, warm and caring mama who lost it. My dd asked me if I thought it was a "bad thing" that my friend hit her dd - I told her that while it wasn't a good thing, it was understandable because she was so frightened that her dd would get hit by a car. My dd asked if I would hit her if she ran out in the street and I answered (honestly) "I would hope not but I cannot judge how horribly scared I might feel and my reaction might not be one I could control."

Maybe I misunderstood the OP but I took it to mean that it is something that happens regularly and that is why I said, "no". I could not be friends with someone that hit their child on a regular basis.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

If the friends spanked as a primary means of discipline, in front of my children or were generally not respectful to their dc then no, I could not hang out with them.

If they confided in me that they do spank on occassion, I would probably help them find other stratagies, give them a book and offer to watch their dc if they felt stressed. I could continue a friendship in this scenario.
This is the precise situation that I find myself in with some of my friends. They aren't die hard spanking advocates, they just run out of rope sometimes and are at a loss for what to do. I have been asked on many occasions how I don't spank my kids and I have to say that it is just a decision that I've made. I'm no saint and let me tell you that there are times that it is all that I can do not to whack one of them, hard, but it is for that reason that I promised myself that I wouldn't. It's too easy to lose control.

None of them judge me for not spanking, rather, they ask me to share how I am able to not snap and swat occasionally. I tell them how I parent and offer books or advice. These aren't moms who WANT to spank their children, they are simply moms who don't know what else to do. If I were to shun them, they would continue to spank because they wouldn't know that there is any other way.

Sometimes we should open our hearts to those who might truly want to find another way to discipline, but if we refuse their friendship simply because we see them as "spankers" we are denying ourselves, them and their children the opportunity to grow. Leading by example is by far the best way to share our parenting philosophy.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I voted "other" because it depends on a few factors.

I have a very dear friend, we became friends before I had kids. She loves her kids so much and is a very concientious parent. She had a rotten, abusive childhood and wants so much to be everything loving to her children that she never got. She is a wonderful, giving friend and a wonderful mother. But she spanks.
I can live with how she does it, even if I don't agree with it. She doesn't do it in front of me. Her life is so much harder than mine, I just don't have it in me to judge her.

OTOH, if it was someone I wasn't that close to, maybe a mom in a group or something, I might end a friendship if it were disturbing to me the way she did it, etc. I also don't want my children around people who are disrespectful to their children, or treat them in a way that would distress me and my kids.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I was at the grocery store one time and there was a little kid (maybe 3?) trying to help his mama load the groceries onto the conveyor belt thingy and he dropped a jar of something and it shattered apart of course and the stuff in it went EVERYwhere and the mother grabbed him by the arm hard and started spanking him. Probably like 4 or 5 times. It was awful. I didn't even know what to do. I don't think anyone else did either. They cashier kept saying..."It's ok. It's no big deal". It made me sick though. I would be embarrased if my kid made a mess like that but it was an accident for crying out loud.

I don't think any of my friends spank. But I don't know for sure. I don't even think I would have the guts to say that I thought they shouldn't do it if I found out they did.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I appreciate the responses and discussion on this issue! Thank you.

Yes, in my OP I meant people who consciously choose and defend spanking as their method of discipline, not those who lost it once and gave a swat.

Not talking about people seeking help who are young and stressed and making bad choices... and maybe being open to other forms of discipline- but people who are old enough to know what they are doing!

I think it does depend on the depth of the relationship, for me also. I haven't heard anyone (I know) have any remorse or regrets about their spanking at all.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Well, in that case, no. I am not friends who spank on a regular basis that don't doubt it, regret it or wish to change it. This is just luck. I think that if this happened to me, I would take a "break" from that person for a while but I would still consider myself friends with them. I do have a friend who seriously considered spanking as a regular addition to her discipline methods but she took it SO seriously&#8230;it was all she could think about for months! We had great talks about it.

If this were new "friends" that you made from a parenting group, I might take a pass on becoming close to them.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

I voted yes but we do not remain close friends. I am finding more and more that that turns out not to be the only difference. Deep down there are many more. More and more I want to surround myself with those I connect to on a deeper level. So, while we may remain friends, we eventually drift apart.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I never had thought about it before but my ds goes over to the neighbor's house quite a bit so today I asked him (with these posts in mind!) if they spank over there and he said that yes they spank the little boy a lot. I never even thought of him having to see that when he goes over there.









Thanks mamas for getting me thinking about what my ds could be seeing without me even realizing it. Poor guy. Do you think it's bad for him to be around that? They would never spank him or anything like that. I just wonder he is upset by it and doesn't want to tell me or something so I will keep letting him go over there! Ok I am getting kind of OT here!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I voted "other" but it's really "I don't know." I have so few friends IRL who have children, and the friends I do have w/kids were made through LLL (where GD is common). It will be interesting once my longtime friends start having kids . . .that'll be the test.

However, as for new friends, NO way would I be friends with them if they had a very different (in the negative sense) parenting style. I'd never subject my DD to that.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mpeel_
*I voted yes but we do not remain close friends. I am finding more and more that that turns out not to be the only difference. Deep down there are many more. More and more I want to surround myself with those I connect to on a deeper level. So, while we may remain friends, we eventually drift apart.*
























(we really need a "hit the nail on the head" smilie)

Yeah, what she said!


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by georgia_
(This said after losing a friend of 24 years after I learned she was beating her 10 mo with a spatula b/c she was tired of him attempting to climb the stairs. Have you considered a baby gate? "No, he needs to learn that we are the parents, and he is the child. We make the rules. Three swats each defiance.")
Yikes! I can't imagine a person smacking her child and feeling it's still right after doing it. There has to be something very ingrained. The few times I displaced anger on my child, it always felt horribly wrong.

I remember I used to help my ds explore when a baby. I was the kind of mother that would stay there, patiently, and help him climb the stairs.

For me, a mother's welcomes a human in her life and her job is to help that human explore and enjoy the world safely.

After we were abused I've been very down thinking nothing matters anymore. But I'm getting better now.


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## Bella&Boo (Feb 4, 2004)

I voted NO.

I would not be friends with a parent that used spanking as a way of diciplining her/his child.

I have very, very strong opinions about this, and would not want to have such a friend. In my opinion, spanking is abusive.

I don`t know anyone who spanks. Its not common here at all. And against the law. Luckily!


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

I voted yes.

I do spank my child.

Am I ok with it? Yes.

Do I strike my child in anger? No.

Do use anything other than my bare hand? No.

Is it my primary form of discipline? No.

Do I abuse my child? No. Not according to every social worker and doctor I've asked about it.

Do I follow legal guidelines? Yes.

Do I advocate spanking for everyone here? No.

Do I feel there is a correlation between the rise of non-physical discipline and the rise of youth crime and violence? Yes.

Do I feel that each child is unique and requires discipline unique to them? Yes.

Was I physically abused as a child? No.

Would I lay down my life for my son? Yes.

There is one thing that really irks me about many of the posts here. The continuing comments that people here would end friendships or distance themselves from people who spank their children. *That is just plain wrong.* If you feel that they are doing something wrong would it not be better to talk with them instead of walking away from them?

Put it like this. If they are doing something wrong and don't realize how are they going to know if you don't tell them? In other words have the courage of your disciplinary convictions. Condemnation from afar is easy. Doing it face to face takes courage.

Good luck to you all. Be well.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penalt_
*Do I feel there is a correlation between the rise of non-physical discipline and the rise of youth crime and violence? Yes.*
Are you sure? Do you have an explanation for it? So many things changed!

Quote:

Put it like this. If they are doing something wrong and don't realize how are they going to know if you don't tell them?
Wait, I thought you said spanking was right for you and you do it? These people here think it's really really wrong. They don't do it and they don't like to see children hurt in front of them. Everybody here would probably not manage to persuade you against spanking as you seem very assertive in what you believe. Same for those people friends.


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penalt_
*If you feel that they are doing something wrong would it not be better to talk with them instead of walking away from them?
*
Penalt, you are doing something wrong. It is wrong to hit your child. I hope you will stick around the Gentle Discipline boards to learn more about loving guidance.


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

I am gonna have to wait to reply on that because of reading the following in another thread:

Moderator's Note:

This thread has been re-opened.

Please note: If any further advocacy of hitting a child is posted, the post will be removed and reported to the administration for further action.

I am going to wait and see if what I have posted is considered to be "advocating hitting a child".

I have no wish for my posts to be summarily deleted or edited.


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

Ok, I've been made aware of the following:

Quote:

Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
Also the following:

Quote:

We reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever
The above from the User Agreement.

Because of those statements I cannot debate freely on this topic and will most likely be leaving this forum entirely. I cannot, in good conscience agree with those policy statements especially the second which I cannot even debate or argue with due to article 6 of the User's Agreement.

I wish you all well and hope that your children grow into people that you can be proud of.

Be Well,
Penalt

p.s. For the person who asked, Penalt is an Olde english abbreviation for "penultimate" or 'the next to last'.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

For clarification read my post here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...69#post1074069


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## plum (Mar 7, 2003)

none of our friends have babies yet, but one of dh's coworkers has said she spanks her baby. the baby is under a year old.


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## meister31 (May 21, 2002)

I am friends with a group of friends that just had their first children and the subject has come up here and there---for instance one of the new mom's said that if her child hit her she would him back--I just looked at her and said that makes no sense you are going to hit him back---what does that say?--it is ok for you to hit, but not your child--how does hitting stop hitting. She was kinda stunned and said I never thougt of it like that--however I dont think she is going to look for alternative/more gentle discipline.---I am starting to wonder why or how I can mantain a true friendship with this group when our parenting philosophies are so different.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I do not believe any of my friends spank.
My SIL and some co-workers do. I bite my tongue, because discussing it would cause problems at work/in the family.

I do not know if I would drop a good friend over the issue, though it is one I feel very strongly about. The thought of lifting a hand to my child makes me physically ill, and I just do not understand how anyone can do it. But I have friends who do other things I oppose (like circ and vote republican) and the friendships are still strong.


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## TingTing (Jan 12, 2004)

Quote:

I voted yes.

I do spank my child.

Am I ok with it? Yes.

Do I strike my child in anger? No.

Do use anything other than my bare hand? No.

Is it my primary form of discipline? No.

Do I abuse my child? No. Not according to every social worker and doctor I've asked about it.

Do I follow legal guidelines? Yes.

Do I advocate spanking for everyone here? No.

Do I feel there is a correlation between the rise of non-physical discipline and the rise of youth crime and violence? Yes.

Do I feel that each child is unique and requires discipline unique to them? Yes.

Was I physically abused as a child? No.

Would I lay down my life for my son? Yes.
Do you, as an adult, ever make mistakes? Probably.

Errors in judgement? Most likely.

If/when either occured in a work situation, would you consider it acceptable for your employer to physically reprimand you (keeping in mind that as children are spanked relative to their size, you would be in for more than a swat on the behind)?
Doubtful.

Similarly, if your husband/partner was displeased with you, would it be okay by you for him to physically "discipline" you? Unlikely.

I don't understand why this type of treatment is deemed a violation of a person's rights and dignity when it applies to almost anyone but those most defenseless among us.

Regarding the supposed rise in youth crime, I think it bears noting first of all that contrary to many people's tendencies towards nostalgic revisionism (ie. "the good old days") our world has been a terribly violent one for, well, ever. Depending on cultural/socio-economic and other factors of any given era, violence has manifested itself in different forms. For example, crime rates per se may have been "low" in the South during the slavery and Jim Crow eras, but clearly there existed an insidious, horrific violence in those societies (of which blacks of course were the primary targets). Moreover, the notion that American prisons today are filled with criminals who were non-corporally disciplined as kids is baseless. The proportion of criminals who were physically disciplined as kids is in fact so high that researchers have virtually given up studying the matter, so unusual is it to find exceptions to that rule. In addition, countries which have outlawed spanking (all European to my understanding) have far lower violent crime rates than the US, and many in fact rate as among the safest countries on earth.


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

From Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines:

Quote:

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.
I will not debate this publically. If you wish to debate the subject PM me. All I will say is at my job if I make a judgemental error I will sustain physical injury equivilent to the degree of error.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Penalt_
*From Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines:

I will not debate this publically. If you wish to debate the subject PM me. All I will say is at my job if I make a judgemental error I will sustain physical injury equivilent to the degree of error.*
Huh?









Aren't you a priest? I assume not a Catholic one as you have children. But if you make a judmental error you sustain physical injuries?
Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

Kids don't make judemental errors and get disciplined. They are disobedient or hurtful and get disciplined so if you are making an analogy, it makes no sense to me. Please PM me with your point, if you would be so kind. Thanks.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I have removed several posts from this thread, some for inappropriateness and others because they were related to the removed posts and therefore out of place in the thread.

Please do not label members as trolls or otherwise cast negativity on their posting intentions. If someone's posts seem to be out of line to you simply report them. If you do that we will take a look and if appropriate have a private word with them and address the thread if necessary.

Let us also keep in mind that some folks come to Mothering without being fully aware of what Mothering is all about and what the guidelines and general expectations are. Please embrace newcomers as folks in search of information or at least in NEED of information. If you can't do that then please allow others to do so.

Sometimes it takes quite a bit of patient discussion to help some see what's wrong with spanking and other non-gentle forms of discipline. But isn't it worth the effort, for the sake of the children? Think of that child whose mother or father came here and left in a huff.

Granted some people do come for insincere reasons and those folks will display their intentions fairly clearly and will not be tolerated for very long. But others honestly come for discussion and may come to totally embrace Gentle Discipline. Therein lies the blessing of the hard work that patient and calm discussion reaps.

Peace and grace everyone.


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## kylewilliamsmom (Feb 1, 2004)

I think that it is important to realize that many people have unfortunately been raised with the mindset that children won't remember it or that its (spanking) is ok b/c they were spanked as children and hey, they turned out all right. I know that for me my child will not be spanked, ever. Physical violence, which is what spanking is, will not be taught or tolerated in my home. What a hipocrite I would be if I spanked my son and then told him not to hit his friend!
Many of my friends already had children when I became pregnant and now have my son. It is at times difficult to watch the ways in which they choose to parent their children. At times it is appalling, like a 2 year old eating Skittles, but the best response I can come up with is to lead by example. So I offer crackers instead of Skittles. We can't fix the world all at once and we cannot choose for other people. BUT we can show by example and offer our opinons and views politely when asked. I have found that this is the best way to inform others of the gentle and loving ways of Attachment Parenting. We can make a difference and change the way children are raised even if it is one life at a time.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I voted "other". I don't think I have any friends that spank (that I know of). I don't think I would want to be close (or have my children be close) to parents that thought it was OK to hurt a child.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I am the only one of my close friends who have kids. But right now I am surrounded by people who spank their kids or hit them as a form of discipline. We are stationed overseas and don't really have a lot of options as to people who we hang out with. But everyone knows how I feel about the subject (DH has never spanked our son but he doesn't care if other people do it








). Ii have seen spanking while walking with my son down the street to the park, at the grocery store on base, every where. It's sad...


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## noodle4u (Jul 19, 2002)

I voted other-
I have some almost but not quite relatives that spank. I hardly see them, but am freinds with them. I see thier parenting style s.l.o.w.l.y becoming more gentle and understanding. It was just plain ignorance on thier part. However they love the relationship between dd and I and how she is a gentle intelligent free-spirit.
If they didnt make any move to change thier parenting style, I would end the relationship and tell them why I felt the need to do so.
I have another 'freind' it pains me to see the way she treats her children. Im am trying to help both her and her children, but Im trying to lead by example and gentle suggestion. Its long slow and painful. I would love to come right out and tell her as I see it, but Im certain she would get offended and nothing would change.
Iam willing to break this freindship up as well if the spanking and yelling continues. But Id like to try and help first.


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## ParkersMama (Jan 29, 2003)

It really depends on the situation I think. Some parents feel it is an integral part of parenting, and have no problem doing it for the littlest things. I can't fathom staying friends with someone who thinks of spanking as a primary means of disciplining, and does it in front of my child with no obvious reason. My mom friends who do spank try other methods first, but keep it in reserve for certain situations or repeated offenses.

I personally see no reason for spanking, except for the parent's personal release ... which is wrong. There is always other methods that do not involve physical contact. And I have little room to talk over the parents that try not to spank ... I have spanked my child, but it was out of my own weakness, not a philosophical decision on the way to raise a child. It is because I was a spanked child, and the fact that I can see myself using spanking as an alternative to true parenting/disciplining that I've chosen to strive towards gentle parenting







.


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