# Crazy fits of rage/angry speech/hitting



## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

Okay. DD is almost 4 and the last few weeks there has been a marked escalation in angry fits of rage. She'll wake up fine, then if something/anything happens that doesn't make her happy, i.e. mostly associated with food or clothing, she SCREAMS and I mean as I sit here typing my ears are literally SORE from the shrill high-pitched horror flick screams she does. My husband has started to wear cotton in his ears -- you feel the vibrations and it it painful even after she does it. I am not kidding.

After the scream, the onslaught of the most horrible things she can muster to say happens. I hate you/You're stupid/I want new parents/Please leave this house/I hate you all the way up to the sky (in lieu of our standard I LOVE you all the way up to the sky







). She does not know profanity, but I feel quite confident that if she did, she'd use these opportunities to use it.

And now she's started punching/hitting/pinching/slapping us.

The whole rage things lasts for about 5 to 30 minutes, depending on a variety of circumstances. Afterwards, she's actually quite contrite and almost embarrassed. But then approximately 20 minutes later (on average), it happens again. She will seem perfectly fine. And then the shrill ear-piercing scream will herald another storm coming.

Here it is, 12:00 and we have our first snow outside. She wants to go out in the worst way, but can't get past putting on all of the clothing necessary for playing in the snow. Everytime we try, it throws her into a fit.

Now, I can tell you what would have happened to me as a child if I tried ANY of this stuff. But I try to remember that that's not the correct way to handle things. I know how that affected _me_.

But....*WHAT DO I DO IN THE MIDDLE OF THESE RAGES?* I mean, I get the whole preventative stuff mentioned in books and the parenting strategies, etc. but *literally when she is screaming (We are seriously afraid someone is going to call the police because of her blood curdling screams!!) and spewing hateful words and hitting us, what to do THEN?? In the moment?? We cannot just let her physically hit us, but any attempts to stop it basically turn into a physical battle of wills.* The only thing that does seem to do a measure of good is time-out, but not all the time. I tell her to sit until she can be quiet and then when she is quiet she can get up. That seems to work sometimes, but I really don't want to have her sit 1/2 her day in time-out, which is a chair in our living room -- I don't send her away for isolation time-outs. And time-out doesn't seem to be teaching her anything, (or maybe it does? I don't know!) It does benefit me by giving me a time-out to regroup for the next round







.

Dairy affects her behavior and she consequently does not get a molecule of dairy anywhere in her diet, not even her homeopathic remedies (I need to find a non-dairy source for those...). She gets no artificial anything - I make most of her snacks/cookies homemade for this reason. I don't think she gets HFCS unless we eat out (not often) and it's snuck in something. She is a very picky eater. I don't eat meat or chicken (seafood only) and she doesn't eat those things either. Her dad does eat meat. I do make a concerted effort to make sure she gets sufficient protein -- we eat eggs, beans, whole grains, nuts, etc.

Bach's Flower Remedies help sometimes, but often she will NOT open her mouth for them if she's raging and if I try to just get it in her, she spews it out







.

About a month ago, I started her on Tall Tree vitamins made by Country Life. In addition to the standard vit/min blend, there is Inositol, PABA, and Choline. Do you think any of those could be triggers?

I have The Explosive Child, The Active Alert Child, The Highly Sensitive Child. Unfortunately, dealing with a child that has always been very High Needs does not leave me much leisure time to read, although I have read bits and parts of those books.

I sat on MDC last night until 1:30 am researching other posts regarding similar things, but I would say that DD's biggest issue is not the violence, but the verbal attacks. I know that that's just another form of violence, but I am not sure how to handle it.

Okay I'm starting to ramble. Any thoughts appreciated!!!!!!!!!


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

No advice unfortunately but watching to see if anyone else has any! We go through similar things at our house sometimes. I'm experimenting changes in diet. I've noticed a big difference when we reduce junk food and get lots of sleep. I also notice it more when Dh and I are arguing.


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## TulsiLeaf (Nov 23, 2009)

Have you tried walking away from her when she is tantruming? I am not saying ignore her or anything like that. But tell her that until she can talk to mummy and daddy in her normal voice you will not speak to her. then walk away and go and do something else.

my daughter has had a few tantrums (we are very lucky with her) and the ones she has had, i do this.


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## cmi (May 21, 2005)

I also don't have a great answer for you but am in a similar situation. DS is 4.75 ans has been having days very similar to your DD's for at least a year. We thought at first (and I still think it's possible) that it was gluten/casein sensitivity. He has been generally off those since he was about 9 months old but DH takes him out to eat and I know he gets some even when trying to avoid it.

I searched this forum last weekend and found some things that may have helped because life was better last week. I tried changing our morning routine just a little so that he gets a little attention before I start getting myself and breakfast ready. I also tried to avoid trying to accomplish too much in one day. This, and trying to focus on his good qualities (something that gets hard after hearing mean things and whining day after day) seemed to help prevent some of the outbursts.

I've also been letting him know that the yelling and mean words make everyone unhappy, and calmly asking him to take a time out. We've tried a lot of different things over the past few months and so far nothing has worked very well.

I look forward to suggestions from other moms.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

My DS is 2.75, and has SPD. He goes into those violent destructive rages with clothing issues as well. We have bent over backwards to accommodate his clothing preferences. I'm sure if he had a better handle on language, he would be spewing awful hateful things as well. Usually it's just screaming and running around in a circle.

I used to validate like crazy, try to hold or hug him, ANYTHING to make it stop. But what I learned is that it really just has to fizzle out. He NEEDS to run and stomp and scream and cry and be upset. So we set parameters instead. I take him to his "safe place" (our bedroom, he likes the closet especially). He can do whatever he wants, but he can't hurt anyone. I just sit on the floor when it starts and say once, as calmly as possible "If you need help, say 'mommy help me'". Obviously, your DD is older, so you can just remind her that you're there for help if she needs. Then I just sit calmly until he's done. If he tries to hit me, I deflect. I only remind him once that he can hit something else.

When it peters down, I make a point not to ask anything of him until he's had whatever it seems like he needs from me as far as attention. This is usually holding him VERY TIGHTLY while he whimpers for a while. After that, he is usually like you say, almost embarrassed. We had a huge breakthrough the other day at the store when he started melting down and just said "SAFE PLACE!!!"

I don't really have any suggestions for the yelling mean things, sorry







. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. It scares me to death when he has these fits, but now that I understand them better, I can at least pretend to be calm through them.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

If you started the vitamins a month ago, and this behavior has escalated, I might discontinue them for a month and see if there is a difference. She sounds like something is "speeding" her up. I am on a big behavior kick with DD and cutting out sugar and adding in more protein to her diet and that seems to help her stay calm.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

DS1 has these, not quite as frequently but a lot. I look at time outs as a means to getting him in a safe place to calm down, not really to teach him a lesson or punish him. Though I do try and train him to go sit down until he calms down hopefully on his own. In the long run I hope he learns some self control so his strong bursts of emotion and will don't come out as violent, loud outbursts.


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## Nillarilla (Nov 20, 2007)

I tell my ds who's 3.75 that his screams hurt our ears (not during a tantrum but after) and that if he needs to scream or hit he needs to go to his room so nobody gets hurt. I take him to his room every single time he starts. Occassionally he will go on his own now so that's progress. Our battles are usually over food and clothing as well. What helps my ds is routine. It needs to happen the same way every time. So I pick or he picks clothes the night before and must put them on before breakfast. Since he's starving this motivates him to get dressed. For lunch I don't give options since this was a battle before and I set up lunch at about 1120 since he's usually hungry right about 1130 and absolutely melts if he gets too hungry. I'm working on scheduled snack times too because these have been a battle lately. We're in the process of eliminating soy (keep finding sources of it I didn't know were there until after he eats it) so his behaviour has been escalating as he's coming off of it. But I know from before that it will get better.
I second the stopping the vitamins for 2 wks and seeing if there's any improvement.


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## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

Quote:

Have you tried walking away from her when she is tantruming? I am not saying ignore her or anything like that. But tell her that until she can talk to mummy and daddy in her normal voice you will not speak to her. then walk away and go and do something else.
Yes, but she follows me because having an audience for what she says is very important. To be honest, when she can even see me, it escalates, but even if I'm in the kitchen (close but out of sight) it helps to diffuse things.

Quote:

...so that he gets a little attention before I start getting myself and breakfast ready. I also tried to avoid trying to accomplish too much in one day.
Yes, I do notice that when we are very active DOING something, it seems to happen less, though does not go away.

Quote:

I just sit on the floor when it starts and say once, as calmly as possible "If you need help, say 'mommy help me'".
Yes, a fault of mine is to sometimes continue to acknowledge all the stuff she's saying (it hurts you know!) but it's best to just say what I need to say once and then be silent.

Quote:

If you started the vitamins a month ago, and this behavior has escalated, I might discontinue them for a month and see if there is a difference. She sounds like something is "speeding" her up. I am on a big behavior kick with DD and cutting out sugar and adding in more protein to her diet and that seems to help her stay calm.
I'm thinking of doing that. It's hard to be CF/GF and also sugar-free, although I see the wisdom of doing that. She doesn't get a lot of sugar and what she does it is rarely in the form of "white death" as I call it but rather in a more natural form. In addition to doing CF/GF, I've been limiting nuts (she LOVES peanut butter) and soy. I guess if I eliminate the vitamins for a few weeks and there is a marked improvement, then I can introduce one of these things at a time slowly to see if there is a reaction.

She had a sore throat also about a month or so ago and after reading, I thought maybe this is PANDAS?? Saturday I took her to the ped and they tested for strep antibody. Honestly, after sleeping on it, I doubt it's that, but we were just so desperate and shocked at this sudden behavior, I really wanted to rule it out.

ALSO, there is a book that we read - she loves the Dinofours series and there is one called Time-Out Time that she really likes. In it, the character Brendan is put in a time-out so he can think about his behavior (it's in a preschool setting) and it's not the same situation as this, but he uses the term "I stopped myself" when he was starting to do something mean to another child. So she knows that term. Yesterday, once, I saw the rage look begin on her face and then she looked at me and said, "mommy, I was going to pitch a fit, but I stopped myself". That was huge progress, even if only one time!

Kind of funny aside: I just got my hair cut the other day and during one of her tirades, she spewed, "I don't like your HAIR!!!!"


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## Tumble Bumbles (Oct 15, 2009)

Thank you for your post, OP. We are dealing with the same issues and it is helpful to not feel alone, athough I don't have any useful advice to add.


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm having similar problems with my 3 year old, he's starting to say hurtful things and making up words to call me (and how dumb is it that it's not even a real word, let alone name, but when he calls me it it makes my so angry, I guess because I know his intention is to call me a name). We average probably 5 good tantrums a day. Lately more, and I know I'm responding poorly and that's part of it.

It's nice to know that I'm not alone in this, and that's he's not just abnormal. My oldest niece did similar (but worse, she was very violent, hitting, kicking, throwing things) things for no reason, she just "snapped" probably once a day and flipped out, she'd destroy the house during the episodes that lasted probably 30+mins. She's now a completely normal almost 12 year old, and so that is reassuring that it is a phase (hopefully!), and it will pass and it won't permanently effect him. I want to say hers lasted from 3-5.

Reading what others have to say and do really helps put things into perspective. Lately things have been so terrible that I'd lost all sympathy and empathy for him and was just feeling immediately enraged when he'd start, and obviously responding wrong which escalates the situation. We've had a much better last couple of days, I have been a better mommy and his tantrums have greatly decreased. I read somewhere (here? idr) that thing like 90% of toddlers behaviour is learned by us (the parents). What an eye opener that is, and a reason to try to be the best mom and person that I can be.


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

My DD is 4, and has been doing very similar stuff.

InMediaRes, I like your idea of a Safe Place to just let the kid get it out of their system. I will have to try that.


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## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

Quote:

I read somewhere (here? idr) that thing like 90% of toddlers behaviour is learned by us (the parents). What an eye opener that is, and a reason to try to be the best mom and person that I can be.
Yikes, that is scary, but I don't doubt it. So hard to be the mommy I want to be sometimes!

So, I remembered that my little brother used to have similar meltdowns like DD. Really bad ones -- I remember him scratching my mother and drawing blood from her arms and screaming, etc. The details are sketchy because I was a child too, but I remember them.

So I texted him and asked if he remembered them and he said he did. (He's now a normal functioning married man) I asked him how he felt when he had the meltdowns and he said that he felt bad and out of control, like his other anxiety issues (which he does still have). I asked him what our mom did to help him, and he said -- 'Nothing. Probably made it worse. I wasn't taught any coping skills which is probably why I still have issues with some of those things. If I had a kid I would do things to build up their confidence and self-respect'

So that was very helpful to get insight from an _adult_ survivor of these issues







. Just reinforced to me that it really isn't a discipline issue (as some might think and as I'm sure our mother approached it as) but more of an opportunity to teach coping skills and help them thru it, and as one mom said, to never give up on them.


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## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

Just as a follow-up -- I ended up taking her off all the supplements she was getting, which were the Tall Tree vitamins, Dr. Sears Go Fish (fish oil), extra vit. D, probiotic and Animal Parade KidGreenz. For the last FIVE days, she has not had one single meltdown. A few normal preschooler bh issues, but NOTHING like it was.

I really believe in cause-and-effect. I think something in the above was affecting her, I suspect something in the KidGreenz.

I had already found a naturopath that I made an appointment for to take her tomorrow. I think it's time to get her tested for specific allergies because it seems obvious that, in addition to the dairy, there are other things that bother her.

I hope we're onto what might be the problem.


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## YasaiMuraLife (Jun 19, 2009)

I just took a quick look at the ingredients in the KidGreenz. It has "natural tropical fruit flavors." That could easily include dairy, even though they are supposed to be milk free. I am allergic to dairy and have started noticing that a number of vitamin products are not really dairy free.

I'm glad you found the cause.


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## baby-makes-3 (May 13, 2006)

I just wanted to post this follow-up thread to the issues we were having in the hopes that it might help another mama with their high needs kiddo. We have put DD on the Feingold diet and it's literally changed our lives. Here is how I came to that....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6#post15737626


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)




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