# the gorilla in the room



## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

being chronically fatigued seems to me not to be healthy. is it just me or is chronic tiredness and nightwaking the gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about when promoting co-sleeping?
i love sleeping with my daughter and think it is good for her--but sometimes I wish I had known the possibilites that lie with it. I look at all the threads on here and for every one good one there seems to be 5-8 ones that are desperate. I wonder sometimes if I am doing the right thing.
I'm not trying to start a huge argument here, but I feel like the more I read sleep books of every kind that there is research to back everyone's theories up.
Which makes me crazy in the head and unsure again if I'm doing the right thing since we are both chronically tired.
Thoughts?


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

It seems to me that if the baby is sleeping in another bed or another room that I would get even less sleep, as I'd have to be more wide awake to physically get up to tend to the baby. Cosleeping with each of my ds's has allowed me to have relatively unbroken-up nights of sleep the last 3 years! I don't see how cosleeping causes more fatigue for the mom.









I am guessing the desperate moms would be just as desperately trying to get their babies to sleep better, whether or not they were cosleeping. They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.

Edited to add: DS1 woke a lot during the night - so, while he's not the *worst* sleeper, I did put in lots of time, muscle, and wakefulness helping him sleep, and he slept best ON me for a long time! Cosleeping was great for us.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I think you have to consider too that it's natural that a lot of the posts would be ones about problems or negative aspects. People who are sleeping well and loving cosleeping don't have anything to post about, ya know?

I kinda agree, that I'd be getting even less sleep if I had to get up every time my kids woke up. Maybe it's not the difference between cosleeping and separate sleeping. I think it's more the difference between responsive nighttime parenting and the different variations on CIO.

But I also think that there's a real tendency to decide that cosleeping is the answer for everyone, and a real tendency to dismiss mamas who are having trouble and not getting any sleep--- if it's not working, it's not working, and something needs to change, and often we're too quick to say "oh, just hang in there and it'll pass." And some of us wear our lack of sleep like a badge or a medal-- like oh you think you have it bad, well let me tell you how little sleep I got. Like it's some kind of virtuous thing to be a zombie all day. I know I do it sometimes.

I dunno. It's something I gotta think about some more before I can decide what I think.


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

You have take into account that people who are doing well with cosleeping tend not to post about it. That said, i know of almost no one else who cosleeps, but i still hear all the time about sleep deprivation and motherhood.


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## guitarmama (Jul 7, 2005)

I think that those of us who have non-sleepers, the ones who are "desparate", would still be getting too little sleep no matter what we did. I don't think that having my dd in a crib, letting her cio, or anything else would have made things much better. I think that dd's sleep "problems" are a part of who she is, and there's really nothibg to be done about it.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

My first DD woke relatively infrequently and slept still. She didn't thrash about or try to kick us out of bed. I wondered why some people had trouble cosleeping.

My second DD woke a lot! She squirmed, kicked, thrashed. I'd think she was settled down, and I could remove my boob and get comfortable myself, but, no, she wasn't really asleep. It was hell. I was miserable, resentful, had a headache all the time, etc.

She had repeat ear infections which had a lot to do with our sleeping problem. At 18 months she ended up getting tubes placed in her ears. After I was sure she was recovered from the surgery and was otherwise healthy I sent DH to sleep with her in her room. She night-weaned relatively easily, and we're all happier. The thrashing doesn't bother DH.

I remember feeling like you when I read blissful posts about cosleeping.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

People without problems don't post









My dd has coslept with us from day one. Never had a crib, etc.

We had some rough runs for sure, but it has CLEARLY always been the best for us.

Dd is almost 3.5 and sleeps well between us still. She will move to her own bed when she asks.










-Angela


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## mizmerricat (Jun 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I kinda agree, that I'd be getting even less sleep if I had to get up every time my kids woke up. Maybe it's not the difference between cosleeping and separate sleeping. I think it's more the difference between responsive nighttime parenting and the different variations on CIO.

I think this hit it on the nail for me. If I were content to let my daughter CIO when she woke at night in another room, then I would certainly be getting more sleep (although at what cost to my soul??), but I think cosleeping definitely gives me at least a *little* more rest than I would get by trying to be equally responsive to a child all the way down the hall.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I think if you are chronically fatigued, then something isn't working and it's time for change


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## Muminmamman (Jul 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mizmerricat* 
I think this hit it on the nail for me. If I were content to let my daughter CIO when she woke at night in another room, then I would certainly be getting more sleep (although at what cost to my soul??), but I think cosleeping definitely gives me at least a *little* more rest than I would get by trying to be equally responsive to a child all the way down the hall.









:..especially considering the real price of ignoring a child's needs.

I also think of the long term-- to raising teenagers/adults who have trust in their instincts and their families; who feel secure in who they are as individuals (I would say that is pretty darn rare these days). That, to me, is the whole point of All This. However, if co-sleeping isn't working, there are other alternatives that don't sacrifice the needs of your little one's.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Well, I've been posting on a mainstream board lately. Most of the moms there think cosleeping is wacky. And most of them, even those who proudly have used CIO don't get sleep either. So I think it's just the way it goes. Most babies don't sttn. If you are going to be tending to your baby at night anyways, why not be right there in the same bed. That's how I see it.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I definitely think I'd get more sleep if my 2yo were night weaned and slept in his own bed. He keeps me up at night because he sleeps across my neck, like a cat!







But that's like saying, If only I'd win the lotery, I'd be rich. I can't just snap my fingers and make him comfortable in his own room.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

so far I have truly enjoyed the comments. they are helping me work this all out in my muddled head--especially what you posted Magali. The moms aound me that all did cio have perfect little sleepers or so they have me thinking..


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

double post


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

And if you look at the flip side of things, babies who never have been left to CIO, are sleeping all night. The more and more I read etc...I realize that the whole sleep issue is just like a big circle. And by the time I ever figure it out, my little baby will be all grown up and we won't be cuddling all night anymore. Of course ds didn't wake up his usual 10 times last night, I think it was more like 5, so maybe that's why I am looking at my sleep deprivation with those rosy colored glasses today.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i agree, the issue is not so much co-sleeping as it is responding to your child at night. if you didn't co-sleep but still answered all cries and calls for you--assuming your child still woke about the same amount--you would almost definitely be _more_ tired.

you seem to be maybe thinking that if you did not co-sleep, your child would not wake as much. i sometimes wonder if DD would wake less if she were in her own room, but so far i've been too lazy (yes, really--i am too tired and consequently lazy







) to try that arrangement. some nights are okay, which refresh me and keep me going with the co-sleeping arrangement for now. the rest are not as okay, but are interspersed with the okay ones, so at the end of the day i am always resigned to continuing co-sleeping because it's kind of sort of working.










and i don't know if maybe you were implying that, had you CIO'd you would be getting more sleep, but i think about that too. and well, i just can't figure how i'd get more sleep if i had to listen to DD cry every time she woke up at night









i know the theory is that they stop crying, but most CIO babies i know about still wake up and cry sometimes. (ask your CIO friends if their babies ever cry during the night; i bet they do!) DD crying her head off would definitely wake me up, and then not only would i be awake, i'd be awake and distressed and guilty and miserable over my crying child who i'd decided to ignore. which would be decidedly worse than the current situation, where i just feel tired and miserable without the guilt









the more i think about it, the more i think there is no better way. this sleep-deprivation part of being a mom just sucks and there's no way around it


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## WaturMama (Oct 6, 2006)

My ds slept in a bassinet next to our bed for the first 4 months of his life (something I very much wish had been different, but I didn't know then what I know now). Every time he woke up he would have to cry to get my attention and wake me up. I took him into the next room to avoid waking dh with all the getting in and out of bed. I nursed ds until he went back to sleep. Then I waited for him to get in a deep enough sleep to transfer him back to the bassinet. Then I very carefully put him back in the bassinet and sometimes he would still wake up and I'd have to do the whole thing again. By the time all that was done I was wide awake and it took me a while to settle back down to sleep. I was very sleep deprived.

When ds was 4 months old I went to visit my parents without dh and co-slept for the first time. It was so, so much better I've never gone back. Ds never cries at night anymore because I wake up before he gets to that point. (That is the part I feel really terrible about--that for the first 4 months of his life he had all that upset that really could have been avoided.) I slept way better because my sleep was far less disrupted. I am not one of those mamas who can sleep while nursing, but by the time ds falls back asleep I am relaxed and in bed and can fall right back asleep too.

Unfortunately this hasn't worked as well for dh who does get woken by the movement. We've tried many solutions, the best is him in another bed in the same room (where I can visit). But I think my better sleep and ds's lower stress make it worthwhile. I trust there will be lots of years in the future when dh and I will get to sleep in the same bed. In addition I'm guessing that I am raising a person that will more easily be able to sleep with his own partner and children someday.

I hope this is helpful and that you find a way to better sleep.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

We've coslept with our 2yo since birth. I definitely think that, for the first many many months, we all got more sleep because i wasn't having to get out of bed. I've noticed recently though, that on nights when I can't sleep and am out of bed on my own she sleeps for MUCH longer stretches. Then as soon as I get back in bed she rolls toward me mumbling "I want some nummmmmies" We have a twin up against our queen, where she starts the night, and I've found that if i nurse her the first time she wakes up and then I move into her bed and leave her cuddled with dh, everyone sleeps longer. I'm convinced she can smell me or something.

Anyway- I would never CIO and I still can't imagine being able to sleep with her in another room- BUT, I am seeing that she wakes more frequently when we're sleeping up against eachother and I will admit that I'm getting tired and grumpy with the all-night nurse-a-thons. So we're trying out variations-- like me moving into the twin or sleeping so that dh is in the middle. We all still get the benefit of being near eachother, and our sleep is only disturbed 2-3 times a night (normally she would roll into our bed to nurse around 1 am and then want to nurse every hour or so for the rest of the night)

So I guess what I'm saying i sthat I think a lot depends on the kid. I do believe that it's best for them to be very near at night, but I also think that it makes sense to observe your own changing situation as the kids grow, etc. and be open to modifying things if you find that what you're doing is no longer working.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
It seems to me that if the baby is sleeping in another bed or another room that I would get even less sleep, as I'd have to be more wide awake to physically get up to tend to the baby. Cosleeping with each of my ds's has allowed me to have relatively unbroken-up nights of sleep the last 3 years! I don't see how cosleeping causes more fatigue for the mom.









I am guessing the desperate moms would be just as desperately trying to get their babies to sleep better, whether or not they were cosleeping. They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.









:


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## Adele_Mommy (Jun 28, 2007)

I agree that people without problems don't post as much, which gives a skewed view of co-sleeping, but regardless _you_ are chronically tired and that's not good for you or your baby.

When my dd was a baby she slept in an Arm's Reach Co-sleeper attached to the side of our bed for the first 6 months of her life and that worked reasonably well for us. Then we went through kind of a transition when she grew out of the co-sleeper and could not sleep in a crib as I had expected. We were all horribly sleep-deprived and it was awful. We ended up co-sleeping. At first I did not sleep well because I was very tense and uncomfortable. Then I started to relax and sleep better, but I was waking up every couple hours or more when she nursed. It was better than no sleep at all, but still not great. Eventually I adjusted and I started sleeping through her nursing. From that point on co-sleeping was heaven and dh, dd, and I were all well-rested. I never had any desire to night wean because it made no difference to me how many times my dd nursed.

We all know every baby is different and has different needs and desires for sleeping, but we sometimes forget that every adult is different too. I sleep perfectly fine with a child wrapped around me like an octopus, but my dh does not sleep well at all this way, so my dd has always slept between me and a wall or bed rail, not between the two of us.

I'm not sure from your post how long you have been co-sleeping or how old your baby is. It can take a few weeks or even a month to get totally comfortable with it so you are getting a good night's rest. But I would definitely suggest trying different things to make yourself more comfortable. Maybe a side-car arrangement with a crib or bassinet would work better for you at least for now. No arrangement has to last forever. We changed little things many times even after we started co-sleeping. Do you have warm pajamas with easy access for nursing? Comfortable covers that keep you warm and an arrangement that does not stress you out worrying about your baby's safety? Is your bed big enough? Is the room a comfortable temperature? If your baby is very young, would one of those co-sleeper nest things help you sleep better?

I do think a certain amount of sleep deprivation is unavoidable for parents, but it is definitely not healthy to be chronically sleep-deprived. I think you will eventually be able to find a solution that gives you all a good night's rest (and does not involve CIO). Good luck!









ETA: I went back and checked the age of your dd in your sig. I think the 6-7 month period is often a time of transition and even previously "easy" babies when it comes to sleep might become more wakeful. This can be a really hard time, but you'll make it through!


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Vivian is 61/2 months old. We have co-slept since she came home from the hospital.
She tries to nurse herself to sleep these days and is unsuccessful. She ends up rolling off and fssing and wriggling and crying until she gets really tired and then wants to nurse again. This time (usually #3) generally works and she stays asleep for at least 1-2 hours or so before waking up to nurse down again. Lately she is just a huge restless sleeper and the nursing doesn't seem to have the same effect. Also, if I go upstairs after the initial bedtime she seems to stay asleep longer....We are all stressed out around here and that is probably affecting her.
She is also on a two week napstrike. She nurses and as soon as I try to put her down she wakes up and cries or starts cooing and playing....
arrghh.
I am considering a plan that will combine ideas from the NCSS book and the BW book. Since we are moving I'm not sure whether I want to implement them now or once we are settled.
The reason I posted this is because I feel like a failure and am a short fused mama that is losing her mind. Someone gave me the baby wise book and there were a few things that made sense and whole lot that was crap. Perhaps there are just too many cooks in the kitchen of ideas. When you are stressed and sleep deprived its hard to make choices--especially hard ones like this. Why can't God just call me on the phone and tell me what to do? lol
BTW I'm the one doing all the packing while my husband will be working on the house after bedtime many nights till we move hopefully in a month. oh and I'm having surgery in April to boot.
soooo I'm crazy and crying everyday and spinning in a circle of solicited and unsolicited advice trying to figure out what's best for Vivian. it sucks.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

double post edited


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *locksmama* 
She tries to nurse herself to sleep these days and is unsuccessful. She ends up rolling off and fssing and wriggling and crying until she gets really tired and then wants to nurse again.

My dd started doing this at 4 months. I guess she didn't want to / wasn't able to nurse to sleep anymore, AND it seems she wanted her own space. After I finally figured it out, I started putting her down in her crib, on her tummy, when she got like that. She'd then suck her fingers while I rubbed her back and fell asleep.

I tried it both ways (nursing to sleep vs. putting in crib and rubbing back), and at first she fussed either way. But she fussed more quietly in the crib, and fell asleep more quickly, AND if I picked her up and tried to hold her, nurse her, or rock her after putting her in the crib she would absolutely scream. A few months later, she now sleeps just beautifully and goes down with no fussing whatsoever, and about 3/4 of the time doesn't even want her back rubbed anymore at bedtime (although she still does sometimes when she wakes in the night).

Does your dd suck her thumb or do any kind of self-soothing thing? Have you tried putting her in a crib or cosleeper? Just one more thing to think about, if you haven't experimented along those lines yet. I know some people don't like the idea of crib sleeping, but some babies really do seem to want their own space.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adele_Mommy* 
ETA: I went back and checked the age of your dd in your sig. I think the 6-7 month period is often a time of transition and even previously "easy" babies when it comes to sleep might become more wakeful. This can be a really hard time, but you'll make it through!

OK I have no idea your baby was so young! I just posted too fast. I think all parents, CIO and otherwise, are fatigued at that age. It's just the way things are. It'll get better!

..and now I just read more about your situation. Did you recently start solids? She sounds uncomfortable.

Around 3 mos Ds wouldn't nurse to sleep anymore and I did the pantley pull off (from NCSS) and that worked. He would put himself to sleep and babble away. It worked great for a while. Then he went back to wanting/needing to nurse to sleep again (and still does at 19 mos).

I know it's easy for me to say but try to just breathe. Vivian is a person just like you are. You are getting to know each other. If nursing to sleep isn't working..... then what might relax her? Can you tell based on spending time with her? Does she like music? Dancing? Would she enjoy just lying next to you in bed? Would she like some time alone?

Remember all you are doing is helping her relax so she can fall asleep. Forget sleep crutches, associations, self-soothing etc. All that will evolve with time.

Just what does Vivian need to relax. Try to come up with a half hour or so of things that make her happy and comfortable.








:


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## galincognito (Nov 23, 2007)

i wish that i could just reach out and give you a hug (plus a reprieve for a couple of hours!). i'm in a similar boat as you (napstrikes, waking when i put dd down, not sleeping well when co-sleeping) so i can understand where you are coming from. i know it's easy for me to say and hard to believe but you are the best mommy for your little girl. she loves you. i'm just not sure what else to say. you and your family are in my prayers.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

you know this started at 4 months, then wained, then strted again so hat totally makes sense she might be ready for more space. she rolls away alot and tries to roll onto her tummy in her fussing and tries to sleep on her side away from me alot lately. I'm keeping that in mind for when we move as we are going to sidecar the crib and start moving her slowly out of our room---s-l-o-w-l-y for both our sakes....
you guys have really helped me alot so thanks so so much. you have all helped me maintain sanity really.
My DH and I had a long talk and decided that I'm just gonna let her take naps in the Ergo and tough out the nights until we move. She might just be going through a phase of serious mommy needing so until she gets a little more normal at night and when we move after we settle I'll start doing the PPO at night (with all that ood back patting and sleepy words and such) and switching the routine in the day to more of a wake eat play snack wind down nap routine. We've started using a lovey and using cue words and the bedtime routine is set set up well already. Does that makes sense to you all? Whaddya think?
I'm holding it together and it is all thanks to alot of prayer and support from folks like you.


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

My experience very much parallels SweetPotato's (though my babe is much younger). I've found in the last few days that maybe I'm actually being TOO responsive, and that _sometimes_ when I wake up to baby's rooting, I can just move us further apart and she goes back to sleep! Duh!

I agree with everyone else that it's the responsiveness, not the where the baby sleeps that really counts, and that if I was similarly responsive to now but put the baby in her own bed, I'd basically get no sleep at all. I also agree with the poster that said it takes a while to get used to it, and the poster who said that grownups vary as much as babies. I generally take a long time to get to sleep (incidentally, or not, I was CIO







), so there's been a real learning curve for me--it's taken me more like three months to adjust. But it's been GOOD for me, as a personal growth sort of thing.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but I thought I'd throw in that I've heard VERY bad things about Babywise, and when I read a few pages myself, I was disgusted. Much of the advice in it flies in the face of research, and it is a religiously motivated work...though condemned even by coreligionists, as far as that goes. I would think VERY carefully and do some supplementary reading before I employed _anything_ from that book.


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## dillNY (Aug 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but I thought I'd throw in that I've heard VERY bad things about Babywise, and when I read a few pages myself, I was disgusted. Much of the advice in it flies in the face of research, and it is a religiously motivated work...though condemned even by coreligionists, as far as that goes. I would think VERY carefully and do some supplementary reading before I employed _anything_ from that book.

You have to be really careful when judging things on what others say, or on a partial reading. I've heard only "horrible" things about Ferber, too, but now I'm reading it. And you know what? There's a lot of good information, and it is all based on research. He's a sleep center director, for crying out loud! I'm not a fan of CIO, but DH and I disagree, so I'm reading Ferber, he's reading the Sleep Lady book, and we'll compare notes.

If you only read the "progressive waiting" section of Ferber's book, you'd be horrified. But he has lots of helpful information about solving problems that interfere with sleep, and advocates examining all of those items first before even considering CIO. I've also heard people say Ferber advocates leaving kids alone to cry until they stop, which he doesn't. He wants you to check on them and reassure them every few minutes to start.

Sorry to get so rambly, I'm mostly just frustrated at myself for listening to heresay about Ferber and forming an opinion without reading it myself!


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guitarmama* 
I think that those of us who have non-sleepers, the ones who are "desparate", would still be getting too little sleep no matter what we did. I don't think that having my dd in a crib, letting her cio, or anything else would have made things much better. I think that dd's sleep "problems" are a part of who she is, and there's really nothibg to be done about it.

Me too.

Dd's sleep patterns have only changed with time - nothing we have or haven't done has had a significant impact.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillNY* 
You have to be really careful when judging things on what others say, or on a partial reading. I've heard only "horrible" things about Ferber, too, but now I'm reading it. And you know what? There's a lot of good information, and it is all based on research. He's a sleep center director, for crying out loud! I'm not a fan of CIO, but DH and I disagree, so I'm reading Ferber, he's reading the Sleep Lady book, and we'll compare notes.

If you only read the "progressive waiting" section of Ferber's book, you'd be horrified. But he has lots of helpful information about solving problems that interfere with sleep, and advocates examining all of those items first before even considering CIO. I've also heard people say Ferber advocates leaving kids alone to cry until they stop, which he doesn't. He wants you to check on them and reassure them every few minutes to start.

Sorry to get so rambly, I'm mostly just frustrated at myself for listening to heresay about Ferber and forming an opinion without reading it myself!









I can say, unequivocally, that Babywise is very very bad. It has been linked to failure to thrive, breastfeeding problems, dehydration, etc.


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## juicypakwan (Jun 19, 2002)

First of all lots of hugs it is no fun to be tired.

Secondly I have to agree with pp's if you have a young baby you will be tired no matter what your sleeping arangement. I have 7 sibling and amongst us my parents have 40+ grandkids. One of my siblings has 6 kids 1 from a previous marriage and 5 with current dh. She has EASY babies there is no way around it her kids literally sleep 8 hrs through the night after about 8 wks. She is very proud of herself and thinks she is doing everything right. She starts out co sleeping and moves to crib no problems. I have a sis who had one baby co sleep and another refuse and once they figured it out everyone slept better. I have another sister who thought she did everything right with her first kid sleep wise and got severly humbled with her second. My own kids co sleep my 19 mo old is starting to be a thrasher we may have to figure out her own space close by. Some of my other sisters have never truly coslept. No matter what sleeping arrangement we have chosen we all get tired we all wish for more sleep.

I recently met a woman at church who has a 4 mo old. She looks like the walking dead. I cringe every time I see her she falls asleep in the mothers lounge while nursing her baby. Her sentences sometimes are incoherent. But from what I gather it's not so much her baby (she doesn't co sleep or CIO) as her inconsiderate husband that won't let her sleep in past 8am on the weekends to recover.

The point of my rambling is no matter what you choose you might still be in the same predicament. I truly think there is no wrong solution except CIO. Do what works best and gets you the most sleep without distressing the baby.


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## Adele_Mommy (Jun 28, 2007)

It sounds like you've got a plan and some things to try. Just having a plan always made me feel better even if it did not end up working 100%. As you say, everything is harder when you are sleep-deprived. You clearly are approaching this as a responsive parent and trying to meet your daughter's needs, so as long as you follow your instincts and don't feel you must do something that "feels wrong" just because some book or some person says so, you will be fine. Remember, if you try something and it is clearly not working you don't need to keep doing it just because you started it either (though some books try to make you think otherwise).

Good luck!


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I think if you are chronically fatigued, then something isn't working and it's time for change

Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.

See? I am so sleep deprived that I responded to this thread twice without even realizing it. Dork.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss)







.

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

You need to remember that this is a board where people post for help. I'm not about to go and start a thread on how great a sleeper my newborn is. So you've got essentially a slice of the population who are sleep deprived. Everyone else is off stressing about poo or food or behaviour. You wouldn't walk into an AA meeting and exclaim how no-one seems to be able to drink moderately these days.

Quote:

Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.
You posted twice but you said good stuff!

My two year old has nightmares, she wakes up from them. I sleep in a bed next to hers so I don't have to get out of bed to comfort her. I agree that bed sharing can cause nightwakings (it certainly does for me), but that's not the whole story.

But actually, I have seen people on here argue that any manipulation whatsoever of your child's sleep is a bad thing, no matter how you feel. And that was in a discussion about having a consistent bedtime for older kids! So I suppose yes, some people on here do make life harder/tireder than it needs to be.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenrose9* 
I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss)







.

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually









I think you are correct. I place the blame for her nightwakings squarely on the nursing to sleep association. That why I am going to lovingly break it when we move and are settled.
I see also what folks are saying about people not posting good things. It makes sense.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I can say, unequivocally, that Babywise is very very bad. It has been linked to failure to thrive, breastfeeding problems, dehydration, etc.

ITA, Babywise and Ferber are two VERY different beasts. Ferber may be mainstream, but he bases his information on experience and evidence. The author of Babywise really is a religious zealot (not judging, just defining) with no scientific evidence to back up his claims on ANYTHING. The information he disseminates is dangerous to mothers and babies alike. There's no good reason to read Babywise.

On the topic at hand, I agree that it's hard to feel rested when babes reach that 6-7 month age bracket. Overall, co-sleeping has been a huge blessing to us, and we've been doing it for 7 1/2 years.

HUGS to the OP!! I hope that you get some much needed rest soon!


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## WaturMama (Oct 6, 2006)

I posted on this thread yesterday (#17). I am someone for whom cosleeping is working. I was thinking about it later and realized this is my first time posting in this forum. And I only look at it very rarely. (The word "gorilla" caught my eye yesterday.) So I pretty much am that person for whom cosleeping is working that never posts here.

I read your post #21 describing how your dd is with sleeping and nursing. Recent changes could have to do with teething and pass. I think I remember that kind of things started around her age.

I know it is so hard dealing with sleep deprivation. It is hard to think straight. See if your intuition is telling you something. Also is there a way you can get some naps in the morning or days while someone plays with your dd?

Lots of good wishes and


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
I am guessing the desperate moms would be just as desperately trying to get their babies to sleep better, whether or not they were cosleeping. They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.

Yep. We didn't start cosleeping until DD was 6 months old, and I went from a couple hours of broken sleep a night to feeling like I was getting a full night's sleep. DD was a "good sleeper" until 4 months old, when she started waking up hourly, and because I refused to use CIO, I was up rocking and nursing for hours each night.

It is VERY common for babies in the 4-6 month old range to start having fitful sleep after sleeping soundly up to this point. It can be related to teething, learning to sit up or crawl, introduction of solids, becoming more aware of their surroundings, so many things. It's developmental, and not something sleep training can "fix." I used to post on a mainstream board, and not a single CIO user was "successful" during this age.

DD is 3.75 now and still sleeps with us. She also needed to nurse to sleep until about 2.5 years old. It wasn't a habit that needed broken, and she outgrew the need completely on her own.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't mind nursing her down if she would then stay asleep after I put her down. She just doesn't do it anymore, and she needs myboob to go back to sleep all night long. My nipples hurt and I'm exhausted--and I'm just not a good mom when I'm tired like this. Somethings gotta give here!
I'm thinking of just starting the PPO at night.
I watched her closely and what it seems to me is that she is not getting past the light sleep phase very much. I think that is a big piece of this puzzle.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *locksmama* 
I don't mind nursing her down if she would then stay asleep after I put her down. She just doesn't do it anymore, and she needs myboob to go back to sleep all night long. My nipples hurt and I'm exhausted--and I'm just not a good mom when I'm tired like this. Somethings gotta give here!

I'm with you and it used to really annoy me when people would say, aww, what's the big deal about nursing to sleep? Well, nothing, if either (1) you can sleep through the nursing sessions or (2) your baby doesn't wake up every 20 minutes all. night. long. afterwards! When you're bleeding and sore and exhausted and crying, I think it's okay to lovingly, gently, slowly, make a change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I have seen people on here argue that any manipulation whatsoever of your child's sleep is a bad thing, no matter how you feel. And that was in a discussion about having a consistent bedtime for older kids! So I suppose yes, some people on here do make life harder/tireder than it needs to be.

Yep. And that's where I have to say, you know what, sorry, I need a minimum amount of sleep to function and be a good parent during the day. So I'm going to do what we need to do to get some real sleep. I'm not going to resort to leaving my baby to cry herself to sleep alone in a crib, but I'm going to do *something.*








and good luck!!


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## timneh_mom (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guitarmama* 
I think that those of us who have non-sleepers, the ones who are "desparate", would still be getting too little sleep no matter what we did. I don't think that having my dd in a crib, letting her cio, or anything else would have made things much better. I think that dd's sleep "problems" are a part of who she is, and there's really nothibg to be done about it.









:

Both my kids are bad sleepers, DS was worse than DD but DD is still a bad sleeper. DS was such a bad sleeper that nobody wanted to sleep with him, and nobody STILL wants to sleep with him! DD is better to sleep with (thank goodness, because I can't take naps anymore) but I had mono for about 6 months this year because I could never get enough sleep to get better.

I agree it's a temperament thing with the kid because I've known other kids to be this way and the only thing that helped was that they grew out of it.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I think you do get more sleep cosleeping when they're infants. But with my first 2, once they hit 12-18 months, it seemed to be diminishing returns. Once I nightweaned and they were sleeping in their own space, we all got more sleep and we were happier.

Just sharing my experience and what works for us.


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## RubySlippers (Oct 4, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed through, but my experience is that ds really seems to sleep better in the hours he's alone in bed before we come to bed - he *sometimes* will do 4 hours straight (if he went early and we go late) while once we're there he's up at least every 1 to 1.5 hours - on a good night. It has gotten progressively worse as he's gotten older (he's 19 months). I really think both our presence (moving, breathing, etc.) and specifically my presence (I really think he _can_ smell me) contribute to the more frequent waking. That is not to say that there are not other reasons for his waking - he'll also sometimes wake 3 times before we come to bed and need to be nursed/walked back down - so I know our/my presence isn't the only issue. I have been feeling desperate lately, especially when it's 3 am and he's up for the 5th time and now he needs to be walked to sleep after nursing him for the past 45 min hasn't worked







: ... but really I'm just too tired to try any major changes right now . We're working on earlier bedtimes (they slipped over Xmas), darker, quieter sleep environment, and dh sleeping in my spot between ds and I. It seems to help a bit, but it's all I have in me right now...

All of that said, I do believe that if he wasn't in with us he'd still be up a few times and I'd be losing just as much sleep just getting up out of bed with him each time as I am now waking with him more often ... I guess I'm willing to accept more wakings if it means I can stay in bed for all of them.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.


Only a part time cosleeper, but did not CIO, so take this with whatever grain of salt you choose to.

While it is probably true you'd be more tired if you were getting up, I found that that was not always the case.

When I had baby in a cosleeper, and afterwards, when we started putting him down at 8pm in his crib, going to bed, and then bringing him in with us around 4am-ish, I got much better sleep than when I had him with me all night.

WHat I realized is that for me to feel human, I need to get at least one complete, uninterrupted, REM cycle, which takes around 3 hours (plus/minus some amount).

Cosleeping, especially once he got to the "hard to nurse down, thinking being latched on but not sucking was a fine plan" stage, meant that while I was never all the way to awake -- I also was not getting *down* far enough in sleep to get that REM cycle. I was constantly being slightly awakened.

He was sleeping 4-hour stretches at night from the very beginning, so what worked for everyone to get the sleep we needed was for him to start the night in his own bed, for me to get 4-ish hours of uninterrupted sleep, then interrupt that sleep very briefly, get him to join us, and go back for more sleep of slightly lower quality. The interruption of getting up was, in the end, less disruptive to overall sleep than being kicked and chewed on was.

As far as being nonresponsive - maybe a beneficial side effect of living in a tiny apartment was that both babies spent months in our room, in a bassinet touching our bed, and then moved to a crib that was "next door" but was about 12 steps away. I could hear them well and found that I woke quickly


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cotopaxi* 
I'm with you and it used to really annoy me when people would say, aww, what's the big deal about nursing to sleep? Well, nothing, if either (1) you can sleep through the nursing sessions or (2) your baby doesn't wake up every 20 minutes all. night. long. afterwards! When you're bleeding and sore and exhausted and crying, I think it's okay to lovingly, gently, slowly, make a change.

Yep. And that's where I have to say, you know what, sorry, I need a minimum amount of sleep to function and be a good parent during the day. So I'm going to do what we need to do to get some real sleep. I'm not going to resort to leaving my baby to cry herself to sleep alone in a crib, but I'm going to do *something.*








and good luck!!









:
Well, all, I have to say that things seem to be easing for now!!!! She is sleeping a wee longer and waking less and starting to take naps (on me on the boppy or in the Ergo but what the hey!) Hopefully when we move and are settled in I can start the PPO...for now she has been asleep since 8:30 and I am psyched! I'm also paranoid.....


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

I co-sleep to *get* sleep, so no I don't think that's necesarrily true for everyone. DS would never let me lie him in a crib and walk away.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

I knew I should be paranoid. She won't sleep tonight and I've had it. She's in the crib and that's where she's staying until something gives. She was rollling around so much she fell off the bed (not a far distance at all but enough to startle her)
She's into rollling around alot and I don't think our bed is really set up for it.
I am crying again as is normal now everyday for three weeks now. I don't want another child if I have to go through this everytime. It may sound selfish but I'm just not a good mom when things are like this and its better I don't have anymore if it is going to be this way everytime.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm so sorry. You need to read Moxie on sleep regressions here:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006...t_are_sle.html

and if you have energy, here:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2005...and_dirty.html

It will get better - I know that doesn't help now. Try to find a way to get you more sleep whether it's during the day or whatever, and then you will find a way through that fits you and your family!

For the record, we side-carred until 1 year and then started cosleeping. Now my son sleeps mostly through the night (usually nurses around 4 am) and tonight decided to sleep in his own bed. I think it is highly child-dependent (but it has to work for all of you!) And I didn't get enough sleep at 6-7 months either!


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks for the Moxie links they made me feel better. I understand now why she slept so long last nght and not as much so far tonight--she's been working on rolling over and back, over and back. She was all over the bed tonight and now it all makes sense as to why she wouldn't sleep...I feel like she's really gearing up to try and learn to crawl or something.
BTW once she started crying from tiredness I put her with me back in bed and nursed her to sleep.
It's hard for me at the witching hour (7-9:30) to handle one more issue. I simply seem to completely lose all patience between those hours. Especally when she doesn't just go right down--ya know the whole pull off boob and look at night light and roll and back to boob repeat then coo then boob then light then roll--for basically 2 1/2 HOURS. Throw into the mix a healthy topple off the bed ( I was NOT expecting her to be able to move that much!) and me putting her in the crib for a little while to work out her restless self to exhaustion. YiKes!
I feel like trying to institute a regular bedtime is failing as it seems to waiver between 6:45 some nights and 8pm others depending on her tiredness. Last night she was so tired she went down at 6:45 and slept a ton. I tried a similar thing today putting us in bed at 7 and this happens. WTH? Why bother with a set time then?..
Anyway thanks again. Moxie has a way of keeping me sane when I read her.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I am in and out of this thread but what time does she wake from her nap? A good structure for a day (generally) is

Wake
TWO hours later ASLEEP for a nap (so maybe 1.5 hours later you're winding down for a nap)
THREE hours after waking from the nap you are asleep again.
FOUR hours after waking from the second nap she's down for the night. So back into that sleep time by starting your bedtime routine 45 minutes or so beforehand.

If she is going crazy b/w 7 and 9:30 then I think you missed the window for her sleep and she's all crazy on adrenalin. That is so easy to fix so I hope this helps.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

You know I also wish someone would have explained to me the whole nurse to sleep association and how that too can really bite you in the butt.

Anyway, in reference to the above post, yes that sounds right. As I was reading the Moxie info and what you wrote above, and after observing her now for a couple weeks of hell, my formulation from earlier today for her new routine seems right. I am hoping the routine helps all of this:
7am wake
8:30-9 NAPTIME
1pm NAPTIME
6-6:30 begin bedtime routine
7pm BEDTIME
I just wish she could go down without needing the boob. I wouldn't mind nursing her and then laying her down but I can't yet and it drives me crazy. So in the meantime I think I will just take naps with her I guess...thanks for the advice one and all it is, once again, keeping me sane.


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

OP,

I hate to tell you this, but your LO sounds totally normal. And, yes, (at least for me) months 4-9 were downright awful. Just awful. Our kid woke up as often as every 45 mins for a while.

We still have bad nights (weeks?) but slowly it's getting better.

What has helped us a little is really preparing her for bedtime. We give her about 45 mins or so to adjust to the idea of bedtime. We turn off the tv, play quietly, read, etc., and, we always do everything the same exact way. For a while we even read the same books in the same order every night.

You mentioned the night light being a distraction - can you turn it off? I had to remove all distractions and put a white noise maker in our room so dd can sleep better.

It's hard, but it gets better. Hang in there and in your more rested moments take stock of all the things your LO is processing, learning and developing.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

mama, just wanted to say i feel you. totally. it's 10:23 here and DD won't go to bed. this is usual more nights than not now. if i were a different person, i would totally be sleep training right now. but i'm not that person. so right now she is up in the bedroom crying with DH. she already cried with me, so i figured i'd let him have a turn.

hugs. it sucks.


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## locksmama (Jun 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
mama, just wanted to say i feel you. totally. it's 10:23 here and DD won't go to bed. this is usual more nights than not now. if i were a different person, i would totally be sleep training right now. but i'm not that person. so right now she is up in the bedroom crying with DH. she already cried with me, so i figured i'd let him have a turn.

hugs. it sucks.

DH isn't even home tonight!! Many thanks for your sympathy!
I just love all you guys. We're all crazy together right?














:


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

Locksmama, I really feel for you. We have a DS that, given the choice would not ever sleep.

We did use NCCS and found it a good source of ideas. PPO didn't work, because if I was in smelling range DS would wake enough to latch on. We had thrush, and I also have psoriasis on my nipples (TMI sorry) and finding a way for him to fall asleep without nursing was necessary for the survival of our nursing relationship.

What worked best was to put together a pleasant hour long bedtime routine ending with DH dancing him down to music. He started sleeping much more soundly. And as Pantley says, if at any time he became very upset, I'd nurse him down. But for the most part he can't settle nursing any more, and this drove us to find a solution forall of us. The last laugh is on DH is that now DS needs his DADDY to fall asleep for nighttime!







:

Co sleeping only works for us at 18 mos. if DS is very tired or sick.








: to you, lots of us have been there too.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

IME nursing to sleep made no difference. For a long time I would walk out and DS would fall asleep alone in his crib. He still work 100 times a night wanting love. (I can't remember if I posted this already in this thread. Sorry for the rp if so!)


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *locksmama* 
She was rollling around so much she fell off the bed (not a far distance at all but enough to startle her)

When babies reach the mobile age, it's a good idea to put the mattress directly on the ground, so if they roll off, they only fall 6" or so. With my DD, we put a mattress on the floor next to our bed. I would nurse DD to sleep on the mattress, join my DH in the bed, sleep for a short while, and then when my DD woke up, I'd join her on the mattress for the rest of the night. It was a wonderful arrangement, and I'd highly recommend it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *locksmama* 
Thanks for the Moxie links they made me feel better. I understand now why she slept so long last nght and not as much so far tonight--she's been working on rolling over and back, over and back. She was all over the bed tonight and now it all makes sense as to why she wouldn't sleep...I feel like she's really gearing up to try and learn to crawl or something.
BTW once she started crying from tiredness I put her with me back in bed and nursed her to sleep.
It's hard for me at the witching hour (7-9:30) to handle one more issue. I simply seem to completely lose all patience between those hours. Especally when she doesn't just go right down--ya know the whole pull off boob and look at night light and roll and back to boob repeat then coo then boob then light then roll--for basically 2 1/2 HOURS. Throw into the mix a healthy topple off the bed ( I was NOT expecting her to be able to move that much!) and me putting her in the crib for a little while to work out her restless self to exhaustion. YiKes!
I feel like trying to institute a regular bedtime is failing as it seems to waiver between 6:45 some nights and 8pm others depending on her tiredness. Last night she was so tired she went down at 6:45 and slept a ton. I tried a similar thing today putting us in bed at 7 and this happens. WTH? Why bother with a set time then?..
Anyway thanks again. Moxie has a way of keeping me sane when I read her.

I'm glad it helped... the 2-3-4 rule helped us a lot (with us it worked out to more of a 2-2-5 rule, but it was a good guideline to start with).

I was thinking of what else helped at that age and I realized that was around the age I started walking my son down in the Ergo rather than always nursing him down (although I did both, I just figured if he got to sleep SOMETIMES without nursing that was good enough). I'd put him on under my coat and go for a walk for at least one of the naps, and often at night. The walking helped me, and it did get an alternative way to sleep going (I had to work a little bit to get him out without waking him but the Ergo was good for that. I couldn't use a sling at that point 'cause of my back.)

I even remember going out in the middle of the night a couple of especially hard nights. My husband was on a business trip and it was a witchy night and I went out crying and then looked up and saw the moon and realized like, every mom on the planet possibly has been out there doing that. It was quite the night.

Wish I had remembered that last night to share! Anyways I hope today is better and you WILL get through this. DO NOT beat yourself up for anything you've done sleep-wise, and like Moxie says, take one tiny thing to change at a time if you are unhappy with it. You only have so much control too. And see if a friend can come over so you can get a nap!!!


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