# How much foreskin removal is enough?



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Hi, I'm new here, but I've been lurking for a while. Some of the thread topics made me think about how much variety there is from one circumcision to the next, so I started thinking about the "correct" amount of foreskin to remove.

I think most folks nowadays will agree that a loose circumcision is preferable to a "tight" one, to ensure that the boy has enough skin to grow into. Consequently, doctors are removing less foreskin than they have in the past. So how much is enough?

If you are circumcising your son for medical benefits, how much foreskin removal is enough to achieve those benefits? If your infant son has so much foreskin left so that most of his glans is covered, will he be protected against UTI's and penile cancer? If your teenage son can cover part of his glans with his foreskin, will he be protected from STD's? What if your son has to retract some remaining foreskin to wash? How much foreskin needs to be removed to achieve medical benefits? Of course we have to be careful no to cut off too
much.

If you circumcise so the chil will "look like Daddy", how much do you cut off? Does Dad show the doctor his own equipment? At what age is matching most important? When the baby is potty training? If so, I would think that a tight circumcision would be best (but be sure you don't have too much cut off). Or is it better for the boy to match his Dad when he hits puberty? How much should the doctor take off to ensure a close match?

If you circumcise to avoid locker room teasing, how do you decide what kind of circumcision will appease the locker room bullies? If they have loose circs, will your tightly-circ'ed son get teased? If the thugs in the locker room have tight circ's, you'd better make sure your son doesn't have any extra foreksin (but make sure not too much is cut off). How do you predict what the bullies will want?

If you circumcise because it's cleaner and easier to care for, do you mean cleaner for the parent during the diaper years, or cleaner for the man for the rest of his life? If you want ease of care during the diaper years, a tight circ might be the way to go, to minimize the risk of adhesions and smegma - but be careful not to have too much cut off. If you are more concerned about your son's hygiene when he's an adult, you'll want to make sure he has enough foreskin to grow into, but not too much.

If you circumcise because you think it looks better, how do you explain to the doctor what you consider to be "just right"? Do you bring in photos of your ideal penis? Are you more interested in having his penis look nice to you when he's a baby or an adult?

If you choose to have your son circumcised, for whatever reason, how in the world do you decide how much foreskin removal is enough? How do you ensure that they don't take too much?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

You should never remove any foreskin that is not part of your own body. There are no medical benifits.

No circumcision is good circumcision.

-Angela


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

:


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
so I started thinking about the "correct" amount of foreskin to remove.

none- read through some of the sticky's at the top of the forum to read about how all these so-called "medical" and "hygeine" benefits are really a heaping load of BS.


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

Generally you will have NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER as to how much is taken off. It is up to the skill of the Doctor / OB / Pediatrician / Intern as to how much they remove, as well as the method used. And even then, the size of the infant penis (0.5" to 1.5") leaves much up to chance. Doctors have attempted to leave more these days as a way to accommodate the 'chance' factor.

Please view the flurry of comments to follow with the understanding that this is an anti-circumcision site, and there are no reasons for circumcision in the first place, so that any amount is too much. I would ask (beg) you to keep an open mind and learn from the notes written, rather than balk or get angry at the 'ravings of the anti-circumcision lunatics'. We have well thought out rebuttals to any and all 'reasons to circumcise' and can show you that there is a reason that there are no medical association IN THE WORLD who recommend circumcision for ANYTHING.

Please listen. Please ask questions. Please learn. Ignorance if fought with knowledge.


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## HeartsOpenWide (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
You should never remove any foreskin that is not part of your own body. There are no medical benifits.

No circumcision is good circumcision.

-Angela









:

I got a video on circ from a midwife that has retired. Watching it reminded me why my baby will never get one. Its horrible. And leaving the room so you do not have to witness it or hear your baby cry does not take you off the hook IMO.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

FWIW, I thought the OP was trying to make a case that one could never know the "right" amount to remove. The question of "how much" was meant rhetorically. Am I right, OP?


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

How much is enough? How about none.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I completely agree that ANY amount is too much. My question was more for those who are in favor of circumcision, to point out that the level of variability is enormous, and one might not necessarily get the result that one expected.

I am expecially curious to hear from those who believe in medical benefits to circumcision. I have never read a study or article about medical benefits (be it reduction in UTIs, penile cancer, or STDs), that describes the effect of AMOUNT of foreskin removal required for each protective effect. Does a "loose" circumcision afford the same benefits as a "tight" one? If not, is it worth it?

Again, I strongly beleive that if one MUST circumcise, a loose circ is far better than a tight one. I've heard too many horror stories about men who suffer their entire lives from not enough penile skin, and it seems apparent (from the increasing number of loose circ performed today) that that many doctors agree.

But is a loose circ worth it? There's no evidence that a loose circ results in medical benefits. Many parents complain that their baby doesn't even look circ'ed, the "cosmetic benefit" isn't realized. A loose circ has a greater chance of adhesions, negating the "easier to care for" benefit.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Hmmm, I think advocating for loose circ is too close to advocating for circ. How does the saying go? "There's no right way to do a wrong thing." I think that's somebody's signature here and it really is the answer to the OP's question.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
My question was more for those who are in favor of circumcision

I doubt you will find very many of those people in this forum.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Um guys, hey, um, I think Deadhead (original poster) was being sarcastic. Read the post carefully.

Thanks,
~Nay

ETA
Damn...then again maybe not. Okay, are you being sarcastic or not? 'Cuz I was chuckling at your first post thinking, "Yeah, you're right, none of it makes any sense!" Should he look like his daddy, soft or erect? Which bully should he look like? Easier to clean for mom or grown son.


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

I have read threads on other (pro-circumcision) mainstream boards where the question of the long term health benefits of circumcising later in life (after childhood). The usual answer is along the lines of 'the benefit is reduced, but now is still better than later.'

Similar responses for how much should be removed for optimal health: 'More off is best' (Yeh right)

(edit: Please note that neither is of the above are true.)


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I'm glad!! But I'll bet a *lot* of people lurk here without posting. In debating circumcision over the years, I've found that approaching the issue from a different angle sometimes gets people to see it in a different light.

I wasn't exactly being sarcastic, but the question was not meant to tell ME how much I should remove - it was to make anyone considering circ for their own son to think about how risky a proposition it is.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Nope, I'm pretty sure I was right the first time. Read the original post carefully. OP was being sarcastic. I especially liked the part about the Dad showing the doctor his package







Good point!

~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
I'm glad!! But I'll bet a *lot* of people lurk here without posting. In debating circumcision over the years, I've found that approaching the issue from a different angle sometimes gets people to see it in a different light.

I wasn't exactly being sarcastic, but the question was not meant to tell ME how much I should remove - it was to make anyone considering circ for their own son to think about how risky a proposition it is.


AW! Well, you know I didn't mean sarcastic in a bad sense. I thought your post had a lot of humor in it. You're right, it does get the point across.

Though, I must admit it would probably work better in a more mainstream board!









~Nay


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

"Though, I must admit it would probably work better in a more mainstream board! "

Point taken. I didn't realize to the extent to which I was preaching to the choir.

For the record, I have two intact sons, twins who just turned 11. We opted not to circumcise them without benefit of Internet research (which we didn't have at the time) or anything else other than common sense. DH is circ'ed, but he had no hangups about his sons' genitals "matching" his. (I've always wondered if those men who feel so strongly about matching their sons shave their pubic hair and wear ice in their shorts for 10 years).

Our reasoning went something like this:

1. That's GOT to HURT!
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. All boys are born with a foreskin; it must be there for a reason.

Fortunately our doctor supported our decision 100%.

I admit that we experienced a bit of "fear of the unknown" before the boys were born, but that disappeared almost immediately. It didn't take long for us to see circ'ed babies as odd-looking, or to appreciate the marvel of engineering that the foreskin is.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

nd_deadhead, I







your OP.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Welcome to the boards!







I love having another mom here with older intact sons, because we can help prove to other moms that the foreskin is a normal, healthy part of the male body. My sons are now 26 and 18, and they've had zero problems with being intact.

By the way, I suspected that your OP was meant to be ironic, and I'm glad that other posts confirmed it. :LOL


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

Welcome to the boards! I am going to print off your OP and show it to dh, he's all for circing and it's bound to be a battle between us.....You brought up some good points!


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## paminmi (Jan 31, 2005)

Is it you Ann? Glad you're here!

Pam








: If I'm wrong...


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Um, I think he's being sarcastic. At least I got a good laugh


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I thought that the OP was BRILLIANT! Totally exposes the lack of logical support underpinning circing for





















reasons.

Taking off too much is bad. Taking off too little is bad. Therefore, let's NOT CUT AT ALL!!!!


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paminmi*
Is it you Ann? Glad you're here!

Pam








: If I'm wrong...


That was my guess too!








welcome to you........if it is you........and even if it isn't









Take care,
Tara


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I couldn't find a waving smilie, so ~~WAVE~~!!!

Yep, it's me - Hi Pam! Hi Tara!

Quirky, thanks for the compliment!


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Well, I got as far as the first paragraph and my suspicious radar went off!

I'm glad to see we're on the same page! Great post, very thought provoking for folks!


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday*
FWIW, I thought the OP was trying to make a case that one could never know the "right" amount to remove. The question of "how much" was meant rhetorically. Am I right, OP?

that's what I thought too.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Hi there - welcome! Great post! You raise (heh) some really good points. Especially the one about cut dads wearing ice in their pants for quite a while


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

OK, it's time for me to let the cat out of the bag!

Ann/ND_deadhead is a long time friend and intactivist. She is as committed to intactivism as anyone I know. I saw the post at another site and caught on immediately. It was so obvious to me that I thought everyone would instantly get the message and I asked her to come here and post it as a personal favor. I had no idea that anyone would read into it that it was in any way supporting circumcision or any particular style of circumcision. My apologies!

When I came and saw 28 replies, my first thought was that everyone saw it as just as brilliant as I did. I'm sorry that I mis-estimated.

Circumcision presents a conundrum when you look at it from this viewpoint. If tight circumcisions were bad then loose circumcisions must be good but look at all of the questions and problems loose circumcisions also cause! Loose circumcisions are also bad, so let's look again at tight circumcisions and compare them to loose circumcisions and decide which is least bad. Right? No, wrong, wrong, wrong! The only answer to which style of circumcision is least bad is to say there is no right way to do a wrong thing. No circumcision is best, they are all bad so the obvious answer is no circumcision at all! That is the only way to avoid all of the problems of tight circumcisions and at the same time to avoid all of the problems of loose circumcisions.

Thanks for the post, Ann! Hopefully, you will join us again. We can use the quality of your writing and thinking and your dedication to the cause!

Frank


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

This is a great post....really points out how absurd it all is!!

I guess you could say I tried one of each (of course without my consent)...too loose....too tight....and I can definitely say they're ALL bad!


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I thought it was great. Really well-done. I will share it with any potential parents.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Ooooh, I know, I know!! Let's make it a sticky! We have a lot of stickies already, but I think this one will really draw attention and make people think.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:

(I've always wondered if those men who feel so strongly about matching their sons shave their pubic hair and wear ice in their shorts for 10 years).
:LOL You just made me choke on my tea. Thanks a lot!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

The OP is great!!! I really want to direct a few mamas-to-be to it.


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## LadyWulf (Aug 11, 2004)

I LOVE the OP. I caught on instantly also.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

The OP was great, I thought of it as satire. May I repost it somewhere else? I'll give credit of course and drop a link back here if you'd like. It's a circ debate forum.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Please don't place a link to MDC at another board. We prohibit that sort of thing here as it causes an influx of people to debate and harass who have no intention of joining our community.

This is from the User Agreement:

Quote:

5. Posting to invite members to other boards for debate purposes or posting about discussions at other boards. This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

PLEASE use it as much as you like! You've all made me blush this morning. No need to give me credit - just spread the word!! Thanks especially to you, Frank, for sending me over here.

I posted this on a circ debate board yesterday morning as well, and received not ONE reply! Funny how no one who wants to do it can answer the questions? I just hope I made some people stop and think.

njeb, I know very few people IRL with intact older sons. The older my kids get, the more I appreciate that they are whole. They learned about circumcision when they were 8 years old - heard the word in a church sermon, of all places! (we're Lutheran). They asked what it meant, so I explained (in clinical, non-judgemental terms) that it meant cutting off the foreksin. Their first reaction was "OUCH!" (because even a child can understand that it has to hurt). They asked why in the world would anyone want to do such a thing, so I further explained that most people don't choose it for themselves - their parents do it to their babies. Our nanny at the time had a circ'ed baby - upon hearing of his plight, my boys said "Oh, that poor baby!"

When they learned that their Dad was circ'ed as a baby, a light bulb went off. One of my sons said "I thought he just kept his foreskin back all the time". Obviously it had never occured to them that it was actually cut off. Their reaction was one of sympathy - one said "Poor Dad - he's missing the best part!" This from a very wise 8-year-old! Neither one asked if they could be circ'ed to match their Dad - weird, huh?

When I read all the BS about circumcising infants "to look like Daddy" or to fit in with the other boys, it makes me sick. My kids don't have their father's hair color, eye color, nose, ears, or chin. If none of those obvious differences matter to them, why should they care what his penis looks like?

I'd better quit now before I blow all my favorite rants in one thread!


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Ann--the only reason my sons are intact is that they were born at home. I had very savvy midwives who educated me on how painful circ. is. If I had had them in the hospital, chances are they would have been cut like 85% of their generation.







I can just see the doctors and nurses talking the very young, unsure, postpartum mother that I was into circ'ing. That's why I can't condemn anyone in the U.S. for having it done. There but for the grace of God goes me.

Unfortunately, after having my sons and leaving them intact, I forgot about this issue. I was a LLL leader in the 80's, and LLLI has very strict rules about not mixing causes at meetings. I devoted my time and energy to bf and helping mothers nurse their babies. Well, I'm retired now, and I started lurking on this board a year ago. I first posted in January, and now I'm on this board every day.

How did you become an intactivist IRL?


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## k mama (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeartsOpenWide*







:

I got a video on circ from a midwife that has retired. Watching it reminded me why my baby will never get one. Its horrible. And leaving the room so you do not have to witness it or hear your baby cry does not take you off the hook IMO.

Well, I don't know where that happened. When my son was circumsized, they had my hubby and I go in the room with him to hold his hand and comfort him. He was fine though, he cried when he got the anaestetic but hardly cried at all during the actual circumsision. Afterwards (that day and the next few days), he didn't cry from the pain at all or anything like that. He was himself, just like any other day. I don't know why they would have the parents not there with the child.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Our ped said they don't allow parents in because if they saw what happened they would freak.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

:

OP I like your sense of humor.

I hope you will rethink the 'if it has to be done' line of thought although I suppose that could be for the .01% of medically necessary procedures.

When I saw the thread name I thought "everyone is jumping on this one!" I am still surprised to see how many responses are here already.

Must shower now .........I'll read the rest later


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## cheekymamaof2 (Mar 12, 2004)

I love this! I can hardly wait to print it off and show my sil who circs for "appearance".


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

njeb, I'm not much of an intactivist IRL. I do try to send some good links to co-workers who are expecting, but I try hard not to be pushy. I live in North Dakota, where practically everyone circs, and change happens slowly!

I discovered a circ debate board several years ago, and was intriqued. I had no idea this even WAS a debate! At the time my stance was "We didn't do it, but I don't care what everyone else does". I actually went looking for reasons TO circumcise my sons - after all, I wanted what was best for them, right? Naturally I didn't find any, and the more I learned about the procedure itself, the risks involved, and the functions of the foreskin, the more secure I became in the knowledge that we had done the right thing in leaving them intact.

When Dustin Evans died, I fell hard off the fence and firmly into the anti-circ camp. It had NEVER occurred to me that a baby could actually DIE from circ complications! I have been involved in the circ debate on-line off and on ever since.

BTW, I nursed my twins for 9 months. My MIL was convinced that they would starve to death because I'm so flat-chested (I grew into an A-cup while nursing). I showed her - the boys doubled their birthweight (from 8 to 16 pounds) in 4 months.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *k mama*
Well, I don't know where that happened. When my son was circumsized, they had my hubby and I go in the room with him to hold his hand and comfort him. He was fine though, he cried when he got the anaestetic but hardly cried at all during the actual circumsision. Afterwards (that day and the next few days), he didn't cry from the pain at all or anything like that. He was himself, just like any other day. I don't know why they would have the parents not there with the child.

Your baby is lucky to have had anesthesia. In this country, most babies don't get any.

Of course, even having your parents with you for the surgery doesn't really make up for losing half of the nerve endings in your penis.

I hope you will educate yourself about circumcision here on this board. Even when circumcision is relatively painless, the damage is lifelong. Read the links in my signature. If you're going to bring your baby into the world by home waterbirth (the best way to go!







) as a gentle introduction to life outside the womb, and for respect for the natural birth process, you owe it to him to leave him natural and intact.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

nd deadhead, I had to laugh at your post; some of that old mythology dies hard. My mother came around and finally understood the error of her choices with the circ's a few years ago. But she was more immediately contrite about not bf'ing us kids. I guess both her doctor and my grandmother had her convinced she would "starve us to death."


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

nd deadhead,

I just wanted to say that I replied to your post on one of the bboards. I think you finally attracted a pro-circer (a nurse) to respond. I don't think I can actually post WHAT board though (starts with a vowel).

Oh, and I recognized it as sarcasm and really enjoyed the approach you took.

Jessica


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:

I posted this on a circ debate board yesterday morning as well, and received not ONE reply! Funny how no one who wants to do it can answer the questions? I just hope I made some people stop and think.
I posted a similar sort of question once, directed to parents who circumcise - ie, how do they decide what 'type' is right for their sons, and also how they decide which sort of circumcision is best for their daughters. They didn't like it, but I hope I prompted some of them to see that it's just as appalling to do it to boys as it is to do it to girls.


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I got it and I think its great at pointing out the ridiculousness of the reasons people give to circ. Now I'm hoping someone will bring up the 'to look like dad' argument because I'm going to ask them when they will start shaving their pubic hair and whether they will shave male balding patterns into their little boys heads!


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