# any radical feminists on MDC?



## princesstutu

Lately, I feel so bogged down by patriarchy. I wanna discuss life with women who "get it".

Plus...I want to know what other rad fems are doing in this world. You know...w/o reading their blogs.


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## lolar2

I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.


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## princesstutu

Hi, again, 1hautemama! Hi to you, too, lolar2!

I feel like I'm at a standstill politically. I almost didn't vote in the last election, but voting is such a strong issue for me, I couldn't allow myself to not do so. I ended up voting for Obama, but I didn't think he was a good choice and I feel like that's borne out. In the end, he is representative of the patriarchy and I think his democratic leanings will allow some benefit for women, I think we (women) really need to rethink how much energy we put behind male politicians and female politicians who want to play with the Big Boys.

I feel like we're at the scraps portion of the day and I want to know what we can do to get past this. It feels so intimidating!

BUT! I finally called the YWCA about volunteering today. I kept forgetting to do it until it was too late in the day (I really need to get back to making lists), but since I was sitting here reading, I picked up the phone and called. I generally volunteer with social community efforts, not ones that are more political, but I really feel the need to get extra political lately. One step at a time!

I don't worry about Roe v. Wade being overturned. There are many reasons for that and maybe I'll get into later. I am boggled by women who are not pro-choice. I understand it's their right, but...I just don't comprehend how one feels that's even a possibility. How could you NOT think you should be able to do what you need to do with your own life and body?

Actually, I'm boggled by a lot of things women do. I really don't think most of us see clearly. I guess that's the plan, tho.

peace


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## Hazelnut

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.


sort of me too, and I probably don't appear to be much of a radical feminist by how I am currently living. Frankly I think a lot of women feel threatened by some feminists (I stress "some") who put down childcare, and other things that women have traditionally done like cooking, sewing, etc. I think, however, that rejecting feminism b/c of this is as misinformed as putting down these activities in the first place. We need a restructuring so people (and not just women) can work and have kids, with less power imbalance. Well that's not all we need, but I do think that's why some women reject it. My take anyway.

I also fear that I've become apathetic. I'm not okay with sexism when I see it, but there's this acceptance that it all just sucks, and it doesn't go away, and I haven't the thick skin for all the backlash I suffered from saying the simplest things.


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## Teenytoona

My ideal self is closer to radical feminism, but I suppose I look like someone who's feminist when it suits me, and I suppose lately that's how I've been. I'm working on it, but am not the greatest at balancing life and ideals!

But I wanted to say I'm here too!


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## PiePie

I'm pretty hardcore in my feminist convictions. However, I have to say that at the moment the vast majority of my energy is centered on my family, which I experience as a political act (DH would differ). Lots of thoughts and ambitions around work/family restructuring, which i guess is more of a liberal feminist goal. I guess I should be







: that it's moving mainstream.


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I also fear that I've become apathetic. I'm not okay with sexism when I see it, but there's this acceptance that it all just sucks, and it doesn't go away, and I haven't the thick skin for all the backlash I suffered from saying the simplest things.

That was my fear for a while, too. Then, I realized that I'm (still) very angry and I decided to use that anger instead of trying to get rid of it. I feel like I had a thicker skin when I was younger. As I get older, I feel more compassionate and I _feel_ more, period. I wonder if that's just part of being a woman? Sometimes I feel like I carry all the pain of the world on my back. It's draining, but I'm working on channeling all that so that I don't become a depressed, lethargic mess.

Good to see you both here, Hazelnut and Teenytoona!

Oh, and I was gonna speak on the "feminists put us down" mentality. I understand that. I'm one of those feminists who will question a feminists claim to feminism if she's trying to put limits on women. I'm not a feminist b/c I want to be more like a man! I'm a feminist b/c I love being a woman and I think I deserve the opportunity to express that however I wish to do so. I'm a human and I have rights.

My "be more like a man" isn't about doing things that have traditionally been "male fields" but more about behaving like a cog in the patriarchy machine. I keep trying to find uninsulting language for these concepts, but I'm not sure this is the time for that. I really think this is the time for bluntness and unrepentant honesty.

I think the time is ripe for a social overhaul, but I feel like I'm not sure how to participate in it/get it going. I'm not Ralph Nader!


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## princesstutu

Hi, PiePie! I agree that focusing on the family is a political act. How could it not be in this day and age?


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## the_lissa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.

This is me right now too.


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## calpurnia

i'm here too! definitely a radical feminist, but like most of the others, i am not really active. & i am very conscious that i don't "look" like a feminist atm, especially since i am a young mum & i'm sure people think i was just dying to get into the kitchen & start raising babies, iykwim. that might just be my paranoia though!

i live in the uk, & all the mums i know through antenatal class etc are going back to work since our babies are nearly one. i am currently obsessed by the "work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input etc issues. there doesn't seem to be a feminist movement around these things??


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## MittensKittens

I'm in!







I'm Olivia, solo mom by choice of two great kids, living in Serbia, and trying to figure out where to go next in terms of life choices. This is a pretty uncharted place as far as feminism goes, although many locals wouldn't agree. Society is very patriarchal here, and I have to admit I have a hard time dealing sometimes. I want to be get active. The brands of feminism that exist here are not ones that I personally identify with, at all. OK, so that's me. I really hope to see this thread grow as well!


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## princesstutu

Hi, the_lissa, calpurnia, and MittensKittens!

Quote:

i am currently obsessed by the "work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input etc issues. there doesn't seem to be a feminist movement around these things??
I think it gets encompassed in certain feminist tracks, but it certainly doesn't get a positive level of attention, IMO. I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a _movement_. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?


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## boigrrrlwonder

:

I'm a feminist and young parent. I remember trying to get through _The Maternal Is Political_ and it just didn't jive with my parenting values or the experiences I have as a young parent in a blue collar family.


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## princesstutu

We can still post links on MDC, can't we?

If we can, read this article about homeschooling as feminist venture.


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## flapjack

I'm kind of here: more of a socialist feminist, tbh.

Melissa Benn wrote Madonna and Child: the politics of motherhood, which is a good read IMO. Calpurnia, Naomi Standlen wrote What Mothers Do, and I know she has links with the Active Birth Centre in south London.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
I'm kind of here: more of a socialist feminist, tbh.

Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?


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## Astrogirl

I think I am, although I'm not sure what the "quintessential radical feminist" is. Maybe i should google.







Personally, my inner convictions may be controversial in that I think women should proverbially rule the world, so I try to keep those opinions somewhat discrete and do my own thang.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I think it gets encompassed in certain feminist tracks, but it certainly doesn't get a positive level of attention, IMO. I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a _movement_. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?

I agree, and I would love to be involved in such a discussion.


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## katmann

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

I can't say I have any advice, but I think this is a great idea. I was really struck during my pregnancy how the issue of birth options is NOT part of the feminist agenda. Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.

As far as my personal feminist philosophy, my mom was a feminist writer and came from what I think of as an old school of feminism. She really focused on childcare, the pro-choice movement, protection of victims of domestic violence, and equal pay for equal work (those things still being crucially important, of course). I feel more like feminism now is a part of human rights in general, and is tied to basic human needs like clean water, reducing hunger, and environmental protection. We need to address all these issues to truly empower women around the world.


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## greenmamapagan

*Puts hand up* I consider my choice to meet my children's needs as fully as I can a political act.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katmann* 
Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.

Agreed. There is a bit of feminist birth activist movement here in Aus, here are some articles from a friend of mine:
http://www.ilithyiainspired.com/2008/03/wild-birth.html
http://www.ilithyiainspired.com/2008...ryone-but.html
By the way, most of the feminist womyn I know here would point out that "Pizzas are delivered, babies are BORN." Language can be subtly disempowering.


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

Maybe put flyers up around town and start off as a group of women helping women. Find some doulas who've worked in your local hospitals and talk to them about what they see as pressing needs in your birthing community. First get the ppl involved, then do the politicking. At least, that's how I look at it. Have dinners with other women who are concerned about the birthing scene (potluck, of course







). Invite women from LLL, API, etc. See what happens.

I keep meaning to do this myself, which is why I posted this.









I happen to be a socialist (really an anarchist and I support socialism as a move toward the anarchy goal), as well. I agree that feminism is a part of human rights (how could it not be? we are human), however I think it's still pertinent that we look at how patriarchy corrupts. I see it as the starting point when it comes to ignoring the basic human rights of others, so I feel like dealing with patriarchy inherently deals with everything that stems from it, which is a LOT. It covers violence, social programming, poverty...everything.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to start a convo on '"work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input'. Maybe we can start with work/life balance. How do we feel feminism is already addressing this issue and how do we think it should improve?


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## Ambystoma

I like to refer to myself as a "superfeminist". I was really active in pro-choice movements, women's groups, etc until I moved at the beginning of the year and grad school bogged me down. I am also in a much more politically conservative area, so I have been baby-stepping forward. I try to subtly enlighten my students if ask about anything in the realm of feminism, repro rights, etc. And I always post super-feminist links on facebook (which incidentally makes most of my family uncomfortable, but my newly divorced mom is beginning to embrace her woman power).

But, I guess, as a crunchy, hippie, biologist pagan earth and goddess-worshipper it was natural for me to be consumed with women's rights


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## MittensKittens

It is great to see this thread grow!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
Maybe put flyers up around town and start off as a group of women helping women. Find some doulas who've worked in your local hospitals and talk to them about what they see as pressing needs in your birthing community. First get the ppl involved, then do the politicking. At least, that's how I look at it. Have dinners with other women who are concerned about the birthing scene (potluck, of course







). Invite women from LLL, API, etc. See what happens.

I keep meaning to do this myself, which is why I posted this.









I happen to be a socialist (really an anarchist and I support socialism as a move toward the anarchy goal), as well. I agree that feminism is a part of human rights (how could it not be? we are human), however I think it's still pertinent that we look at how patriarchy corrupts. I see it as the starting point when it comes to ignoring the basic human rights of others, so I feel like dealing with patriarchy inherently deals with everything that stems from it, which is a LOT. It covers violence, social programming, poverty...everything.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to start a convo on '"work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input'. Maybe we can start with work/life balance. How do we feel feminism is already addressing this issue and how do we think it should improve?

Yeah, you are already addressing some of the problem here - no doulas. In fact, fathers are mostly not allowed to attend births either, and in the hospitals where that is allowed, it is a service you have to pay for (!?!). I know one midwife who is interested in getting something going, the midwife who attended my daughter's birth. But she's scared of getting into some trouble.

There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.


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## boigrrrlwonder

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
If we can, read this article about homeschooling as feminist venture.

I LOVE IT!

So, I want to vent. I went to an activist conference this weekend. They said they were going to have childcare. My DD is just getting past her separation anxiety, so I was going to give it a whirl. Even though they said they were going to have childcare for both days, they only had it for part of one. They only had one person in the room, and they wanted sometimes to only have one man in charge (and the organizers thinking they were being progressive by making sure all the childcare wasn't being done by women). They didn't screen or train volunteers AT ALL. If you signed up on the sheet, you got to do childcare. Period. And people wonder why the anarchist scene has so few families involved. UGH.


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Yeah, you are already addressing some of the problem here - no doulas. In fact, fathers are mostly not allowed to attend births either, and in the hospitals where that is allowed, it is a service you have to pay for (!?!). I know one midwife who is interested in getting something going, the midwife who attended my daughter's birth. But she's scared of getting into some trouble.

There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.

Do you have WIC in your area? Does your WIC have peer breastfeeding counseling? If so, you might want to see about meeting with her/them and seeing if you can do something for the community using WIC clientele. Do you have birth coaches in your area? If so, maybe you can talk to them about surveying/giving a talk at a birthing class.

Where are you located, if you don't mind my asking?

I know when I've started programs/groups for women/mothers, I just posted fliers at the library and told ppl I knew thru LLL and WIC. I didn't usually get a big turnout, but I find that getting ppl involved in activism in my town is a job in-and-of itself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boigrrrlwonder*
They didn't screen or train volunteers AT ALL. If you signed up on the sheet, you got to do childcare. Period. And people wonder why the anarchist scene has so few families involved. UGH.

So, do you think you could approach the coordinators of the conference and offer to help handle the childcare for the next one? Or at least let them know that that area is one they need to work on?

I don't know how difficult it would be to work the childcare angle. I'd think the most difficult part would be getting ppl to agree to it, but it could be a purely phone and computer thing. Phone around asking ppl if they'd be willing to give two hours of childcare assistance, then order background searches on them. You'd have to have a fax machine, too, if the ppl aren't local, probably.


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## MujerMamaMismo

Socialist feminist here. Hi. I am currently on maternity leave with my 1st babe from a feminist mothering organisation and have had a lot of time to sit and ponder. It's been a strange transition from knowing to doing. I live in an inner urban, super progressive area yet still, most of the women in my mum's group complain about unsupportive partners and the lack of value placed on motherhood. We also each host the group week-to-week and trip over ourselves to clean our houses and bake a freakin' cake on our week...me included. It blows me away! I feel like we haven't moved an inch from the consciousness raising groups of the 70's.

It's been a while since I've been active politically outside of my job but I think it's time to get back in the saddle.

BTW -there is another femo tribe somewhere though it's been a long time since it's been active!


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## Shabbers

*tacklehugs the thread*







:

Okay...so I don't identify as radfem...but some of the women I respect most do! Put me at the more radical end of liberal feminism here, I suppose.

I dunno - I've never understood why more women *don't* identify as feminist. It just seems so absolutely clear to me...but then, I was quite literally raised on "Free to Be You And Me" by a feminist single mom...so I drank it in with mother's milk so to speak.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
Do you have WIC in your area? Does your WIC have peer breastfeeding counseling? If so, you might want to see about meeting with her/them and seeing if you can do something for the community using WIC clientele. Do you have birth coaches in your area? If so, maybe you can talk to them about surveying/giving a talk at a birthing class.

Where are you located, if you don't mind my asking?

I know when I've started programs/groups for women/mothers, I just posted fliers at the library and told ppl I knew thru LLL and WIC. I didn't usually get a big turnout, but I find that getting ppl involved in activism in my town is a job in-and-of itself.

So, do you think you could approach the coordinators of the conference and offer to help handle the childcare for the next one? Or at least let them know that that area is one they need to work on?

I don't know how difficult it would be to work the childcare angle. I'd think the most difficult part would be getting ppl to agree to it, but it could be a purely phone and computer thing. Phone around asking ppl if they'd be willing to give two hours of childcare assistance, then order background searches on them. You'd have to have a fax machine, too, if the ppl aren't local, probably.

I'm in Belgrade, Serbia







. No LLL, definitely no WIC... just patriarchy and some EU advocates who wrap themselves up as semi-feminists. There are some strong women in the parliament here, but they are only interested in the agenda's of their respective parties, rather than furthering the feminist cause. Because there is an awful lot of work to be done here, I think a single issue campaign would be best. It is also likely to gain more support, I think. I have already looked into getting subsidies for non governmental orgs, and there are quite a few possibilities. There is one organization for parents that seems quite good as well, and I might find some good people there. Getting locals involved in a movement is key, of course. Well, I AM pretty much a local now, I guess... when I first came here I was told I would not achieve anything, anywhere in this country, unless I "started behaving as a woman". One woman even explained to me in detail how I should "work the patriarchy" to get anything I wanted. Well, no thanks...


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo

Who, me? Radical?







:

Really, I'm a radical everything. I never approach issues half-way. I've been involved in politics and protest since I was nineteen years old and had a potent revelation that one person really can make a difference. It was because of the tornado that hit OK City. I was on the front lines of the disaster relief, and realized that one person (OK, four people and pick-up truck) can make the difference between life and death. Nothing was ever quite the same after that.









The issue I've been involved with most heavily is GLBT rights/marriage laws, but I've been involved in lots of feminist issues as well. Pro-choice, birth choice, and I got one of our local newspapers to stop the annoying and sexist habit of specifying when a _female_ police officer did something (they didn't specify when the officer was male). I also do a lot of volunteer work with victims of spousal abuse.

I've always preferred the personal approach. Help one person, educate one woman, you've changed one person's life and I believe this has ripple effects across the world. That was something I learned during my disaster relief. Sure, it's just one shingle, but then you put down another and another and pretty soon you've put a roof back over a family's heads. Then you move onto the next house, and then one day you stand back and see that where there was once nothing but rubble, there's now an entire neighborhood. Damage CAN be undone and change CAN happen, no matter how overwhelming the 'big picture' may seem.

IMO, the feminist movement has seriously dropped the ball on our birth rights. They fight and fight for abortion rights, but if we choose to have the baby, our birth rights have less protection than our termination rights. I do everything I can to educate the women I meet, though, have served as a lay midwife, and have paid for a professional midwife when the woman's insurance wouldn't cover home birth, so I think I'm doing what I can. I figure every woman I can facilitate a home birth for will then tell other women, who will tell others, and so on. Finding MDC has been so helpful with this. I now direct women to these forums because there's more information here than I could ever give (not that I ever get tired of telling my twin birth stories







).

*MittensKittens,* I can only imagine what trying to uphold the feminist cause in a country like Serbia is like! Many loud cheers to you for refusing to 'work the patriarchy'! I strongly agree that picking a single issue is the best way to go. Then you can hopefully attract a few like-minded women, and start a real campaign. Fliers can be an inexpensive way to tell people you exist, though I've had problems with them being taken down or defaced by people who disagree. The internet can be a powerful tool. We've had good luck with buying classified newspaper ad space, putting ourselves on Craigslist, and several of the different meet-up websites. There must be something like that in Serbia. Good luck! Living in a less progressive US state has taught me not to look at us as 'behind' other places (though we are), but rather to see how many more opportunities there are to enact change here.

Sorry to ramble on for so long. I'm too enthusiastic for my own good sometimes.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
Who, me? Radical?







:

Really, I'm a radical everything. I never approach issues half-way.

Me too







. I am afraid that some of my views are even too radical for MDC







.

Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.

I haven't done much yet, I'm trying to set up a business right now so my focus has been on that. What have you folks been up to?


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## Hazelnut

Regarding abortion- Very interesting, I agree. Reading Germaine Greer's (sp? it's been a while) opinion on that years ago really shed some light on that. The choice goes both ways, and for certain demographics it is really indirectly encouraged. What is MDCs opinion, anyway? Are we not allowed to discuss it?

eta: duh, I just saw that you are in Serbia! Well I feel the same here. I am pro-choice, but I feel the same wrt single mothers here.

I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not.







:


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not.







:

I am already worried about that, and my kids are almost three, and four months. I want to homeschool. I am not yet even sure whether that is a legal possibility here, but if it is not, it could be a reason for me to move on to another country.


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## provocativa

Hello, another anarcho therefore socialist feminist signing in. If you google birthrape you will find why much of the conversation about birth rights doesn't move forward. It's too intense for the media.

As for starting movements, use the technology- we can now act globally as we act locally. Make a website. Use the internet locally too, like local yahoo discussion groups. At any event of like minded people, get names start an email list.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Regarding abortion- Very interesting, I agree. Reading Germaine Greer's (sp? it's been a while) opinion on that years ago really shed some light on that. The choice goes both ways, and for certain demographics it is really indirectly encouraged. What is MDCs opinion, anyway? Are we not allowed to discuss it?

eta: duh, I just saw that you are in Serbia! Well I feel the same here. I am pro-choice, but I feel the same wrt single mothers here.

I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not.







:

Ugh! This is one reason all of my boys are homeschooled. DD1 probably won't be returning next year to the private school she's attended since first grade either because she's every bit as radical as I am and it's causing her a lot of problems in her (very conservative!) school. The problems are bad enough that she's ambivalent about going back herself, even though she enjoys the classes themselves.

Abortion rights is a cause I'm involved in, because Oklahoma really has some terrible regulations and laws. It's bad enough here that one of the clinics the crisis center I volunteer at is involved with is in another state, despite the fact we're in a major metro area.

I totally agree that the choice goes both ways, though, and am involved from both ends of the issue. Home birth, abortion, adoption, I'm involved in all of it. I think these are all issues fundamental to women's rights, and don't think I could choose between them.









Quote:

I am already worried about that, and my kids are almost three, and four months. I want to homeschool. I am not yet even sure whether that is a legal possibility here, but if it is not, it could be a reason for me to move on to another country.
Not being allowed to homeschool would be an issue I couldn't compromise on either.







As much as I love where I live, I would have to leave if I couldn't homeschool. Luckily homeschooling is one of the things Oklahoma has right--our right to homeschool is protected under our state constitution. I don't even have to keep up any paperwork.









*provocativa*, I love your user-name! I wasn't feeling very creative when I joined MDC, obviously.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
Abortion rights is a cause I'm involved in, because Oklahoma really has some terrible regulations and laws. It's bad enough here that one of the clinics the crisis center I volunteer at is involved with is in another state, despite the fact we're in a major metro area.

I totally agree that the choice goes both ways, though, and am involved from both ends of the issue. Home birth, abortion, adoption, I'm involved in all of it. I think these are all issues fundamental to women's rights, and don't think I could choose between them.









I feel all guilty about having been so lazy the last few years now. It has been three years since I was involved in any organized activism no, and it is time to change that!


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## suzywan

: Laziest red-fem, also dabbling in eco-fem, on the planet, reporting....

My activism consists of writing checks, but as we have seen throughout history, for better or worse, the hand that writes the checks rules the world. I would like to see that system dismantled, but can't forsee how that could be done any time in the near future.


----------



## nolonger

I think I can be a bit lazier-than-thou, but i was also thrown for a loop when my long-awaited donor conceived Persephone Siobhan had to have her name changed at birth because of an unexpected penis, which rules out my separatist fantasies, and I was also involved in that whole Encyclopedia Dramatica thing (I am NOT Biting Beaver, but I don't think she did anything wrong) and I was kind of a bumbling idiot because I didn't understand what was going on.

Anyway, i've already been forgiven by the people who matter to me, have fallen madly in love with my son, Terran-Sage Revolution, who is now fifteen months old, and am ready to get on with life.


----------



## nolonger

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms.

Because of MDC's policy and some hurt that was caused by the inevitable misunderstandings, I took my Phoebe Rose's pink angel out of my siggie, but yea, ITA, have personal experience, and would find it very healing to talk to you at that other place.

I'm in the US and never expected to find another UCing Single Mom by Choice even online. If you're old too, I think I'm going to fall out of my chair in shock.


----------



## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noordinaryspider* 
Because of MDC's policy and some hurt that was caused by the inevitable misunderstandings, I took my Phoebe Rose's pink angel out of my siggie, but yea, ITA, have personal experience, and would find it very healing to talk to you at that other place.

I'm in the US and never expected to find another UCing Single Mom by Choice even online. If you're old too, I think I'm going to fall out of my chair in shock.

Noordinaryspider, nice to "meet" you . Did you have another username before? I am asking because I have come across someone else with your son's name (don't know about the middle name) before, also an SMC. If you are not her, now THAT would be a coincidence.

Living abroad can be liberating too. I am Dutch/American, and people tend to see me as "that crazy foreigner". Just raising my kids and being a solo mom could be considered activism, actually. That would be a bit lazy, though







.

And about the unexpected penis, I am wondering what other mamas' views and experiences are with regard to raising sons? What are the issues that you come up against, and how do you solve them? Mine is only little, but already people offer up expectations for his future.


----------



## ursusarctos

Woohoo! I think I have found my tribe! Hello everybody! I love radical feminism because imo it's pretty much the only one that questions the whole system instead of trying to integrate women into it. If I had to choose I would call myself ecofeminist though as far as activism goes mine is limited to arguing with my friends and choosing my purchases carefully







(I buy organic, local and seasonal as much as possible and try not to buy much anything else







).
I am in Finland and the feminism here, while prevalent and "accepted" by the state, is very much focused on getting women into the job market with equal wages, as if that means women would be equal. There is little to no focus on the underlying social structures that devalue birth choices, parenting, focusing on being a human being instead of being a cog in the consumer machine, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I'm a feminist b/c I love being a woman and I think I deserve the opportunity to express that however I wish to do so. I'm a human and I have rights.

My "be more like a man" isn't about doing things that have traditionally been "male fields" but more about behaving like a cog in the patriarchy machine. I keep trying to find uninsulting language for these concepts, but I'm not sure this is the time for that. I really think this is the time for bluntness and unrepentant honesty.

I think the time is ripe for a social overhaul, but I feel like I'm not sure how to participate in it/get it going. I'm not Ralph Nader!









This!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
Hi, PiePie! I agree that focusing on the family is a political act. How could it not be in this day and age?

Yes! This is why I often find conservative patriarchal movements such as quiverfull to be almost more feminist than the "feminists" sometimes!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a _movement_. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?

I agree. I do have issues myself with feeling superficial though as I myself am very privileged in the grand scheme of things (just another middle-class white college-educated heterosexually-partnered woman here). I know that feminism is not about having a "who's the least privileged" contest, but I can't help questioning whether or not I am focusing on the "really important" things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

Find like-minded women through the internet and start meeting? There must be at least a couple other women in Serbia who are similarly disillusioned with the birthing environment. In Finland there is a total of ONE organization that is pro-natural-birth-and-birthplace-choice and I believe it was started by a small group of concerned women. They produce a quarterly magazine that you get by paying a small membership fee. It was very small when it started in the 80s but has been growing consistently since then. Finland is a very small country population-wise and very unquestioning of "the establishment" but there are still enough alternative-minded people to be found - Serbia has more people, there must be some chance of finding other people with your feelings?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katmann* 
I can't say I have any advice, but I think this is a great idea. I was really struck during my pregnancy how the issue of birth options is NOT part of the feminist agenda. Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.

As far as my personal feminist philosophy, my mom was a feminist writer and came from what I think of as an old school of feminism. She really focused on childcare, the pro-choice movement, protection of victims of domestic violence, and equal pay for equal work (those things still being crucially important, of course). I feel more like feminism now is a part of human rights in general, and is tied to basic human needs like clean water, reducing hunger, and environmental protection. We need to address all these issues to truly empower women around the world.

Yes, yes, yes! I have been reading Vandana Shiva and the rights of the world's women are SO tied up with the exploitation of 3rd world countries. And I think it is the same underlying system/mentality that justifies the patriarchalness of western birth options and the plundering of the 3rd world.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.

I can totally see why you feel that way based on everything I have heard about Eastern Europe. It will be really interesting to hear about your experiences if you start some sort of organization or movement! You must feel something like how feminists felt in the states in the 50s...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
IMO, the feminist movement has seriously dropped the ball on our birth rights.

Oh yes. That's the case here too. If the Nordic feminist movement was ever even holding that ball







I don't think radical feminism ever really made it here. And I think it is too system-questioning to be listened to seriously over here - Finns do love working with their systems and very few actually question the status quo. Perhaps part of that is that on the surface everything is so good here. For example with birth rights - most births are attended by midwives in the hospital, and the rate of interventions and c-sections is far lower than in the states (though increasing all the time







). There is less of a crying need to change things than in the states or in eastern europe, so it is harder to get people really mad about how it is virtually impossible to choose a homebirth here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Me too







. I am afraid that some of my views are even too radical for MDC







.

Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.









I think that, despite the attack from the right, women in the states too are often forced into abortion due to lack of options for single mothers. I came across this site a while back - Feminists for Life. Not sure how religious they are or aren't, but I like their premise: "women deserve better than abortion". I think they focus on the need for better social resources for young mothers so they actually have a CHOICE about having an abortion. I haven't read through the entire website though so please don't get mad at me if there's something there you don't like - chances are I wouldn't like it either. And it's not my website anyway







I just thought it was an interesting example of feminists who noticed that the be-all and end-all of reproductive rights is not just access to abortion services.
Here I have no quarrel with the abortion resources/pressure. It is certainly possible for a young single mother to survive quite well due to the welfare state, and abortion is legal, cheap or free, and easily accessible until the end of the 3rd month. This makes for the real possibility of choice about whether or not to keep one's pregnancy and less of horrific late term abortions. Public opinion takes these services for granted. So the main problem here is the birth rights. It doesn't help that everyone is convinced that birth is a horrible emergency and that every time a mother accidentally gives birth outside the hospital that it's a huge miracle that both mother and baby survived








Anyway, looooooong post, sorry! Looking forward to following this thread.


----------



## greenmamapagan

*For ursusarctos*
A new site by a Finnish homebirther. I don't speak or read Finnish so I have no idea how feminist it is but I know she's pretty passionate about natural birth so I thought you would find it interesting








http://www.bebesinfo.fi/


----------



## A&A

Here's an essay about intactivism being a feminist act:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm


----------



## ursusarctos

Greenmamapagan, thank you for the site! I am exploring it now. While it doesn't say much about homebirth, it does have a lot to say about how to get a natural birth in the hospital and what "natural birth" is, which is great! I love the internet!







The pictures provided of the rooms in the two birth centers I know of also made me realize that they are not a real option for me and that homebirth for future babies is definitely going to be my goal. Btw, they are trying to close down one of those birth centers (again) right now







due to "lack of funding". As if it were cheaper to have a highly medicalized birth. Not that that's where the state should be cutting their budget anyway! Sigh...
I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.
A&A, that is an interesting article, thank you.


----------



## greenmamapagan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.

No, I don't know her personally. She is on a local attachment parenting list I'm on. I know she's back in Finland now and that her last bub was born there, I'm not sure but she may have had her fist homebirth when she was living here (Australia). Perhaps if you contacted her she would try to help you find a mw.
How frustrating about the birth centre


----------



## MittensKittens

Talking about pictures on the internet, I thought I might share this. These are pictures from Serbia's most "prestigious" L&D hospital. The website is there for women to share their horror stories. I don't think they are doing much to change the conditions though )some half-hearted attempts), and they are not interested in homebirth.

Isn't it funny how you run into the same people all the time on MDC? Lots of UC-ers on this thread - do you think it is a coincidence?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Greenmamapagan, thank you for the site! I am exploring it now. While it doesn't say much about homebirth, it does have a lot to say about how to get a natural birth in the hospital and what "natural birth" is, which is great! I love the internet!







The pictures provided of the rooms in the two birth centers I know of also made me realize that they are not a real option for me and that homebirth for future babies is definitely going to be my goal. Btw, they are trying to close down one of those birth centers (again) right now







due to "lack of funding". As if it were cheaper to have a highly medicalized birth. Not that that's where the state should be cutting their budget anyway! Sigh...
I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.
A&A, that is an interesting article, thank you.


----------



## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenmamapagan* 
No, I don't know her personally. She is on a local attachment parenting list I'm on. I know she's back in Finland now and that her last bub was born there, I'm not sure but she may have had her fist homebirth when she was living here (Australia). Perhaps if you contacted her she would try to help you find a mw.
How frustrating about the birth centre









Ok, thanks, I will probably try to contact her. I realized from the website actually that I was directed to the same place by a Finnish MDC member recently... I think it's time to go check it out.
Yeah, I have been stewing about the birth center (actually it's just a small local hospital specializing in natural birth but it's the closest thing Finland has to a birth center) all day







: I really hope they don't shut it down... People come there all the way from Russia (probably because birth conditions there are similar to Serbia's I would think).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Talking about pictures on the internet, I thought I might share this. These are pictures from Serbia's most "prestigious" L&D hospital. The website is there for women to share their horror stories. I don't think they are doing much to change the conditions though )some half-hearted attempts), and they are not interested in homebirth.

Isn't it funny how you run into the same people all the time on MDC? Lots of UC-ers on this thread - do you think it is a coincidence?

Oh my goodness, MittensKittens. Those pictures are... harrowing







The place is a dump - does this send the message that women/their reproductive functions are garbage, much?







: Are people really not willing to work towards change even with sites like these where obviously a decent number of women had terrible experiences and are publicly complaining about them? Could you contact the person who started that site and see if she would be interested in putting up some sort of notice of a meeting or something on her site? See if you could get a few women together who have had enough? (I'm only asking these things in the context of you asking for ideas about activism... probably you have already thought of these though!)
I do not think it is a coincidence at all







Since radical feminism involves questioning the whole system altogether, I think it makes perfect sense... Not that you have to UC to really "get it", not at all, but I think when you get into rad. fem. enough you are seriously going to question routine hospital birth.


----------



## honeybee

Hello! I just found this thread and am reading with interest. I don't know if I qualify as a "radical" feminist, but I am definitely a feminist. But I agree that we need a new "face" to feminism. I read an article in my mother's More magazine, bemoaning how the younger generation (meaning us) has "dropped the ball" and use statistics about the growing number of educated, professional women dropping out of the workforce to stay home with their children as an example of that. I can't tell you how much that gets my goat!









Anyways, I totally agree with you all on how feminism has totally passed over the birthing rights issues. I am just getting started in activism. I'm president of a non-profit friends group trying to support midwifery and eventually be part of a movement in our state to license CPMs. I am finding this very difficult right now. I have so many things I want to do with this organization, but I am so exhausted and overwhelmed just trying to take care of my 3 children. They are so young right now... but now is the time things are happening here, and honestly, if I don't do this I don't know who will. The Board of our Friends group has changed over a few times already, and we just had another member who had to step down due to health reasons and nobody has yet to fill that place. So, I am trying, even though I feel like I'm only doing a half-a** job of it.

So, yah, I'm having a hard time figuring out that balance between mothering and outside "work" -even unpaid, volunteer work. I've also done some WAH in the past, but not for about a year. I'm finding it difficult.

As a young adult, I did a lot of reading about issues surrounding girls and women, especially as it related to my field, education. I learned about sexism in schools and the gender gap, etc. Then I had my first child... a boy. Then I had two more boys. At first, I was concerned with making sure my boys would grow up to be sensitive men who would be full partners to their wives. I still am concerned about that. BUT, I have also done a lot more research and have come to understand how our gender stereotypes and expectations are also so harmful to boys and men. Now I am primarily concerned with how to protect my boys in this world. I want to protect them from the aggression and dominance images that saturate our media. I want to protect their emotional integrity so they don't feel they have to cut off a part of themselves in order to fit in with society's image of a "tough guy." Yet, I still want to honor the boyish parts of them... the tendency to want to compete, a need for rambunctious play and a lot of movement, their concern about fair play, etc. And now I am pretty annoyed at how little attention is made to the needs of boys in our schools... the gender gap goes both ways, and boys are being shortchanged in many ways.

Anyways, I find myself in a strange dichotomy. My friends from high school (who I am becoming reacquainted with through facebook of all things!) are primarily professional women who are politically active and identify themselves as feminists--yet do not seem to question the status quo/mainstream in regards to rearing children. My friends here in town are wonderfully crunchy, but most are pretty conservative and seem hesitant to identify themselves as feminists.

I am also wondering what will happen once all my kids are all school age. I still have this idea that I should have a "career" and I really do want some time to pursue outside interests in some form. But, I am becoming more open to the idea of SAH while my kids are in school. I would like to pursue activism and creative endeavors (would really like to write that book I've been wanting to write!)... but then I wonder if it is fair to expect my husband to carry the financial burden of supporting our family for so long. Doesn't he deserve to pursue activism and creative endeavors, too?

And then I wonder what kind of example I'm setting for my boys, since I am finding myself in a "traditional" gender role. But, then, they do see their dad cooking dinner and cleaning the house and caring for babies, too, so we are not completely traditional. I do feel a bit guilty when something needs to be fixed, and I say "wait for Dad to get home."







I feel like I'm not holding up my end of the bargain... but unlike my own mother I'm actually not very good at mechanical/fixing things and don't really like to do it.

In general, I'm just struggling with what it means to be a feminist stay at home mom.

And that saga turned out a lot longer than I meant it to be... I have been thinking about theses issues for quite a while.


----------



## katmann

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.

But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism. That's one of the reasons I can't call myself ONLY a feminist, although abortion rights have always been a major issue for me. I'm really more of a socialist in general because I think socialist policies tend to benefit women more than capitalist policies (not that the two are mutually exclusive - they just tend to be in the US).


----------



## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
And then I wonder what kind of example I'm setting for my boys, since I am finding myself in a "traditional" gender role. But, then, they do see their dad cooking dinner and cleaning the house and caring for babies, too, so we are not completely traditional. I do feel a bit guilty when something needs to be fixed, and I say "wait for Dad to get home."







I feel like I'm not holding up my end of the bargain... but unlike my own mother I'm actually not very good at mechanical/fixing things and don't really like to do it.

In general, I'm just struggling with what it means to be a feminist stay at home mom.

And that saga turned out a lot longer than I meant it to be... I have been thinking about theses issues for quite a while.

Hi honeybee! I agree that boys are shortchanged in this society as well... feminism is so not just about women! It's about changing the relationship between the sexes to be less rigid and oppressive for everyone.
I don't think you should feel guilty! If you're not good at a coincidentally traditionally male skill that doesn't mean you don't provide a different contribution that's just as important. Perhaps you do more housework than your husband, for example. The main thing I think is that all kinds of work and contribution to the family are seen as valuable, including cooking, cleaning, fixing stuff, earning wages, etc. etc. because traditionally "men's work" has been seen as more valuable, important and fun than "women's work" and I think that's half the problem right there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katmann* 
But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism. That's one of the reasons I can't call myself ONLY a feminist, although abortion rights have always been a major issue for me. I'm really more of a socialist in general because I think socialist policies tend to benefit women more than capitalist policies (not that the two are mutually exclusive - they just tend to be in the US).

I think you are right to a large extent. Here in Finland they have a much more socialist system than in the states and it has been a major contributor to gender equality - at least in the public sphere. It is much easier to have a career and also a family here due to paid maternal and paternal leave, public childcare, public healthcare, public assistance, a "child bonus" from the government, single mothers are not officially stigmatized, etc. etc. HOWEVER, women still do most of the housework and cooking even if they work 9-5, which they are expected to do much more here than in the states. The structures are in place to help women live a life "equal to" (which here is interpreted as "the same as") a man's life, but the attitudes and expectations of gender roles in private life have not changed all that much. For example, women here still know how to see dirt, whereas men don't, and so women clean because men don't know it's time to clean. I'm sure this is a "training" issue because I have taught my DP to "see" dirt slowly over the past few years, and I know I was taught to see it more than my brother ever was - because my mom just assumed that men naturally don't know how! And I think this is a very prevalent issue. Men just aren't taught to care, or that they should care, and by the time this becomes an issue in a private relationship women are already 10 times faster and better at caretaking than men due to years of practice so they just do it rather than forcing the men to learn how. I notice this in my dealings with DP - it's much easier to just wipe up the counter after him than to teach him how to do it thoroughly, or cook the sauce myself rather than letting him learn the most efficient way to do it through experience as I have.
So while more socialist policies definitely help, there isn't going to be true equality in any system until the underlying expectations people have of gender roles change.
Also, while I do believe that it is extremely important for women to have the same opportunites to interact in public life as men have, I think that funnelling all women into the rat race with men (as has been the focus of feminism in Finland) is not going to help anyone be happier in the end. What really needs to change is the culture of wage earning being the superior activity to non-paid activities such as parenting, housekeeping, volunteering, etc. Of course, one could definitely blame capitalism for that too... Sigh, it's all so complicated.


----------



## ursusarctos

Oh, I wanted to ask everyone: *how "out" are you as a feminist?* I am not terribly much - I don't call myself a feminist, for one thing. I don't stint to argue with people about the safety of homebirth or to point out that one rape affects all women, but I don't generally use the word "patriarchy" to explain why births are centered in hospitals, or anything else for that matter... Probably only my DP really knows the extent of my beliefs.
I am starting to care less and less what my friends know about my ideas though (my facebook is full of feminist quotes







). Perhaps part of what's holding me back about becoming more outspoken is that, while I find it easy to point out what's wrong, I don't really have a theory about what would make things better. One thing I believe is that politics won't change anything - call me cynical, but I believe power is always going to be in the hands of the rich and well-connected no matter what kind of system or laws you have. I think the way things change is through grassroots efforts - but I don't know what kind of effort to make, where to focus myself, or even how. I also feel that I don't know enough about the world to formulate a theory of how things should operate - but then I look around and I see that many people in power have even less insight into things than I do!


----------



## calpurnia

i have lots to say to this thread but no time! i will be back!

just wanted to post a link to this article - you can never have too many mothers which i thought was interesting

Quote:

What I'm saying is that human mothers are unusual in how much support they need. I'm also trying to expand the concept of what children need to include other people as well as mothers. Mothers need a lot of social support, and having more than one caretaker is very, very useful.


----------



## ursusarctos

Ok, I'm posting yet again







I'm really not trying to hijack this thread, I'm just at work and procrastinating









Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
i have lots to say to this thread but no time! i will be back!

just wanted to post a link to this article - you can never have too many mothers which i thought was interesting

Calpurnia, that article was very interesting, I think I will have to check out some of this woman's books - have you read any of them, out of curiosity?
Her theory sounds right to me. Most societies, including ours until a hundred years ago, operate/d on an extended family/small community basis, with lots of alloparents to go around.
It would make sense that we, who have evolved for an alloparent context, would have trouble in a system that confines caretaking to one person.
I also think it's interesting in the implications for daycare. It doesn't seem to be a bad thing for a child to not be raised 24/7 by its mother, but the average daycare attendant is not at all the same as the grandmother or aunt or sibling of the child in terms of providing loving, emotionally meaningful, and caring support and social interaction. The difference between modern alloparenting substitutes and the traditional alloparenting context is that childcare was historically provided by people who had a vested interest in the child and its survival, not strangers.


----------



## nolonger

Just a quick check-in because the hijacking of Mother's Peace Day by the advertising industry hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday and i'm still bawling and wanting to singlehandedly turn it into a National Day of Mourning the way the native american movement has been able to do for thanksgiving.

Never mind, just United Statesian stuff.

MittensKittens, I think it's yet another coincidence! I posted as Anonymon in the feminist blogosphere, but I think the ddos attacks on the people I can't mention because of MDC's UA during the incident I can't mention because of MDC's UA happened long before Terran's birth and i've been kind of hiding out since then. There is another Anonymom (which i didn't know when i began posting under that username) who i fear might have borne the brunt of attacks intended for me.

Anyway, the whole encyclopedia dramatica incident was very dramatic and relatively peripheral to this discussion. I'm a baby Radfem who is pretty devoted to my mentors, who are controversial figures in the blogosphere. I am open to having my ideas and perceptions challenged, but not to ad hominems on two fairly well known Radfems who have been there for me during some very difficult periods of my life and I have never posted under the name "Biting Beaver".

Honeybee, i am so thrilled to have someone else to talk to about Boys Rights! As i said during my pregnancy, i wish Terran's gender were not so important, but it did determine the direction my own life is going to take over the next 20 years or so. I have an older son, who i feel that i have failed miserably, and i need to get excited about the challenges that lay ahead of Terran and I and become more confident in my own ability to deal with them.

THIS son shall not be taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach
him of charity, mercy and patience.


----------



## MujerMamaMismo

nak with lots to say but probably not enough time to say it...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katmann* 
But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism.

Exactly. It's my opinion that capitalism is bad for everyone but as you run through a checklist of disadvantage and oppression it blows my mind that women, that's half the population(!!!), do so freakin' poorly in all aspects. Of course, class and race pull up pretty poorly too and we can't forget that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Oh, I wanted to ask everyone: *how "out" are you as a feminist?*

Very out. Though less so with my newer mama friends. I do try pretty hard to sneak a bit of consciousness raising into my mothers groups though. But in general it's hard for me to be 'in' given my personal and professional history.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noordinaryspider* 
Just a quick check-in because the hijacking of Mother's Peace Day by the advertising industry hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday and i'm still bawling and wanting to singlehandedly turn it into a National Day of Mourning the way the native american movement has been able to do for thanksgiving.

THIS son shall not be taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach
him of charity, mercy and patience.

I know what you mean re Mothers Day - can you imagine if mothers rallied in the streets instead of the stores? We might actually have a chance at a real, large and meaningful womens movement.

I also wanted to say something about the sentiment that you failed your older son. You didn't! Society may have, but you are not solely responsible for the social education and upbringing of your kids, no one is. We don't live in a vacuum and we're all products of something much bigger than our parents and upbringing.

more t say but have a fidget midget on my lap and should pay him some attention before he loses the plot!


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## MittensKittens

Is this thread dying a slow death, or are you all out campaigning? I do hope it's the latter!


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## calpurnia

i'm revising for finals! i shouldn't be here at all.

quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
i'm revising for finals! i shouldn't be here at all.

quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.

I hate that. It happens all the time in various forms. When DD was younger people frequently called her "him" because I am a bit resistant to pink. Depending on who makes the comment, I either explain my views, make a rude comments, or just ignore it.

Another question for you all - on the "case against circumcision" board, I frequently read comments about how society protects our daughters, but is biased against our sons. It talks about institutional bias against men. While I am anti-circ, the way in which these comments are formulated rub me the wrong way. What are your opinions?


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## MittensKittens

And any good links on feminists raising boys?


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## MujerMamaMismo

As the mother of an intact son, I am definitely not concerned with the institutional/systemic oppression of men. It's a simplistic argument to even try and assert that routine male circumcision is oppressive, just as it's simplistic to assert that female circumcision is oppressive. In my view, female circumcision is one of the many tools used by the system/patriarchy/whoever you believe to be responsible, that contributes to and maintains the oppression of women and girls. It is simply not the same for males. Cruel and unnecessary, yes. Systemically oppressive, no.

And on the gendering of our kids...it drives me 'round the twist. DP's mother has recently picked up on my flippant comment that I don't want DP's racing car driver brother anywhere near DS once he's old enough to understand - I said it in jest because racing cars scare the sh*t out of me and I don't want DS to die. Simple concept, but a joke nonetheless. DP's mother will not let it go and has gotten into such a flap about it. She's suddenly all morally panicked that DS is being raised by 2 women who clearly are bringing him up to be a girl??!!!? Now, every time we see her she talks about what a great football player he's going to be and how he needs to get some football socks or that his uncles need to take him to the football this year. Um, he's 5 months old. I really don't think any babe, boy or girl needs to go to the football that young. I also make the point, regularly, that I am thrilled for DS to have a million interesting things in his life, his uncles and football included, if he so chooses, but that my biggest priority is giving him the tools to decide and express whoever and whatever he wants to be. Still, she's determined to buy him a tonka truck for his 1st birthday. Anyway, that's my massive gripe about her. My step-mum also recently said to him 'look bubby, there's a truck, that's a BOY thing.' I almost lost the plot over that. This is one hard battle to have.

I have to admit though, I do get some pleasure when people mistake him for a girl. I don't dress him in blue (or pink) ever so there are a few folks that we see around the neighbourhood who are a bit unsure. I love it! I never correct people when they get his sex wrong either. It's so unimportant, it's not worth the breath. When he's old enough to express gender then, with feminist sensibilities in mind, I'll be open to helping him do so in whatever fashion he desires.


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## MujerMamaMismo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
And any good links on feminists raising boys?

Someone needs to write a really good book on this. I can't find much that grabs me.


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## calpurnia

i don't have a boy, & i haven't read this book for years, but i remember enjoying "the trouble with boys" by angela phillips. she also wrote the first "our bodies ourselves" edition for the UK. so not a ringing endorsement but a tentative one!

*mujermamamismo*:



> In my view, female circumcision is one of the many tools used by the system/patriarchy/whoever you believe to be responsible, that contributes to and maintains the oppression of women and girls. It is simply not the same for males. Cruel and unnecessary, yes. Systemically oppressive, no. completely agree with you./]
> 
> i completely agree with you.
> 
> damn more to say but nap over!


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## MittensKittens

Glad I'm not the only one with that view on the circ issue.

I'm gonna get my act together very soon one of these days and actually do something! If I don't work to make this society more woman friendly, I will go crazy! Does it seem to any of you that women with children are so much less respected as well?


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Does it seem to any of you that women with children are so much less respected as well?

Actually I'm not sure about that. I wanted to agree at first, but actually I think that young single women without children are even less respected. In patriarchal society, if a woman is not defined by someone else (her husband, her father, her children) she does not have an identity. A woman who is not a wife, a daughter, a mother, a widow, or a nun is not categorizable in her own right, because she does not have a role. A woman without a "role", especially a young one, is a non-entity, not lableable, and therefore it is not necessary to treat her with respect. She's assumed to be waiting to acquire a "real" role (being a woman is not enough alone). At least a mother is not assumed to be a weak mindless sex object in quite the same way (no, mothers get to be madonnas! woohoo!







).
Though I'm not a mother so I can't say with much authority, I'm just pointing out what I've observed. I do agree that single mothers (particularly young ones) are not respected - perhaps in different ways? I mean, on the one hand a woman gets a certain amount of "weight" as a mother that she does not have as simply a woman, but on the other hand if she's single she's not going about motherhood in the "right" way so there's obviously a lot of judgement about that, spoken or not. And if she's young she'll get the BS and patronizing/ignoring that is given to young women anyway. So yeah actually, I don't know. What is "not being respected"? Being actively _disrespected_ or just being ignored and trivialized? Both I guess. Sigh.
So I guess that didn't really answer anything at all







I guess I feel like young women are the least respected members of society regardless of circumstances, and some things can make it worse, like being single or being a mother (and we all know how much society respects and looks out for mothers, regardless of ideals about motherhood







).


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## MittensKittens

About single mothers in particular, I see this attitude all the time, even here: "all single mothers are saints" is a quote from a post I saw here a while back. A neighbor told me last week "you are a hero", simply because I am a single mom. What does that mean? Apparently, women who go about raising kids WITHOUT a man carry a terrible cross on their back, and simply going on with life is a great achievement. I find this terribly annoying, because it reaches the very essence of patriarchy, without people even realizing. Single mothers with sons must be even worse.

Hazelnut, you have a very good point about motherhood getting approval, but not respect.


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## almadianna

Hello ladies!

As a staunch feminist I am glad that there is such a large population of feminists here on MDC.

I want to remind us all here that we cannot host negative posts about other threads here on MDC or other threads. I understand that there are things and beliefs that we may not all agree with and that is ok. We dont have to.

However, we do have to be respectful of those beliefs.

Please also remember that we do not host discussions about abortion on the boards.

I truly hope that this thread can stay active but please remember the User Agreement.


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## calpurnia

thanks alma.

i think i get a bit less respect (although respect is not quite the right word) for being a mother, but that is partly because i am young (not that young - 25 - but very young for my demographic of educated white middle class english girls) to be having babies. but i don't think if i were in my 30s i would be respected, i just would have conformed to the norm.

i've been thinking recently about how difficult people find it to acknowledge that mothers can have negative feelings about being parents. recently-ish, in the uk, a book came out in which a mother said quite openly that she had lost a lot of things in having her son, & there was an outcry. outraged people saying she was an unfit mother etc. what's that about? overhang from the angel in the house syndrome?

& the circ issue - granted i don't live in a circing country (my dad was circed, which was routine in his country, & my brothers weren't circed - it was never presented as an issue, just that it had been fashionable but wasn't necessary really) so really don't have a strong emotional reaction to the topic, but i also really struggle to see it as comparable to female genital cutting - which, i just looked up, gives an increased risk of infant death in childbirth of 15% - 55%, depending on the "type" & is directly responsible for the deaths of around 10,000 - 20,000 babies a year in africa... just want to repeat, in case anyone gets upset, that i am totally anti routine male circumcision. that's not what i'm debating, just whether it really can be compared to female circumcision in terms of "institutional bias" &, dare i say it, severity.


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## MittensKittens

OK, let's see if we can find something else to talk about







. What are the little, everyday examples of misogyny that you find most annoying? And what do you do to stop them there and then?


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## boigrrrlwonder

I think that young mothers, regardless of whether they are single or not, get a lot of crap. I became pregnant at 19 and am 22 now - not really a young mother. But young enough that motherhood made others' estimation of me drop (since they decided that I must have gotten pregnant because I was irresponsible or too stupid to know to use birth control and then selfish for wanting to parent). I've been partnered for six years.

And that's another thing about youngish parenthood. Experiencing the difference between being a young mother versus seeing my partner parent as a young father. We are the same age. While my partner is a WONDERFUL father now, it took him longer to adjust to parenthood. And for a long time I was a full-time student while he worked part-time at a job (my parents supported us), and he did almost no childcare, housework, etc... And random strangers would see that he didn't dump my ass for being pregnant and praise him for sticking around - making it evident that they thought he was a good parent simply for sticking around or "taking responsibility" as they would say. No one praised me for "taking responsibility," because they already thought I was irresponsible for becoming a parent in the first place. They didn't think I was a good parent simply for having deciding to have any level of involvement in my child's life. But it was true for my partner.

And that right there is misogyny. That sticking around makes a good father but the standards are much much higher for a young mother. That there's this idea in this culture that as soon as a younger woman becomes pregnant she's trash and it takes a remarkable man to stick with her.

Okay,







over.


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## MittensKittens

ITA. The idea that your partner is a 'saint" for sticking with you if you are "stupid enough" to become pregnant at a young age is utterly repulsive and very insulting. I am sorry you are having to deal with that prejudice.

Something I have come across quite a bit is how lots of people in a business or political context will call women by their first name, while men attending the same meeting have somehow automatically acquired the right to be referred to as Mr So and So. Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find it very downgrading.


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## Hazelnut

I agree with this, both wrt to the circ issue and everything really. I am mostly discussing feminism or gender issues or even raising kids online rather than with irl acquaintances and friends, and in those communities this is an viewpoint I see a lot. I have three sons and gender roles and stereotypes do concern me, but I do not think that boys are at a disadvantage more than girls, and indeed I think they have less to fear and less discrimination to face. It shocks me actually, the hostility with which feminism is treated by some mothers. I think they really think it is an attack on boys and men, which I think is unfortunate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MujerMamaMismo* 
As the mother of an intact son, I am definitely not concerned with the institutional/systemic oppression of men. It's a simplistic argument to even try and assert that routine male circum.


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## Hazelnut

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
What does that mean? Apparently, women who go about raising kids WITHOUT a man carry a terrible cross on their back, and simply going on with life is a great achievement. I find this terribly annoying, because it reaches the very essence of patriarchy, without people even realizing. Single mothers with sons must be even worse.
t.


This is such an interesting and enlightening point to me. I had never thought of it that way. Frankly, I am usually in awe of single mothers,







: simply b/c I always thought it would be so difficult to be the only adult responsible for them or bringing in income, and yet they are successful. I don't run around saying that b/c I did imagine it would be repetitive and annoying







. Although there are times when I think it might even be easier. My spouse is always parenting when home, but there are so many other areas of household responsibility where it is sometimes all me and I just think, wouldn't this be easier if I only had myself to consider? I recall another feminist mother telling me it was so much easier when she was single, b/c she didn't have to "take care" of her spouse or clear anything with him.

I've been curious if the disrespect young and/or single mothers get has let up at all in recent years in the U.S. I'm guessing not.


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## MittensKittens

I agree it is often easier parenting solo. When I hear women talk about their husbands, it is often like they have another, very obnoxious, child. I guess that might be offensive to some - not meant like that







:.


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## 1littlebit

i don't know if i am radical per se.. in fact i didn't know some of my little peeves were feminist issues until this thread.









i got pg at 19 i will be 22 in a couple weeks. one of the things that still boggles my mind is that no one expect DP to stick around when i got pg. people talk about how amazing it is that he has stayed with us and supported us. WTF is up with that? so when a man gets a woman pg it is expected that he will leave her because of this? and then no one blames them for leaving because well.. what do you expect him to do? I expect him to step up and take responsibility for his child. maybe more young men would step up if that was the expectation... but apparently leaving is the manly thing to do.

DP stayed with me and DS he supports us, he loves us, he is my partner and the father of my son. i love him and appreciate him but i don't think he deserves an award or anything. he should be expected to stay... if he loved me before i got pg i don't see why me getting pg would make him love me less.









my current cause i support for young pg women. i think when women are unexpectedly pg they are presented with three choices. abortion, adoption, and obviously neither. now there is tons of information about abortion and adoption but if she chooses to keep the baby (which is apparently a radical choice) there is very little information and support.

i am working on starting an organization geared towards helping these young women get the information and support they need. i think a good birth experience and a successful nursing relationship can be incredibly beneficial to someone whose pregnancy was unexpected. i want to give them the information they need to realize that they can do this, that they were made to be mothers, and that you don't have sell your kidney on the black market to afford a baby. the simplest, cheapest way to raise a baby is the natural way... most people just doesn't realize that b/c there aren't any commercials for it.

young moms get a raw deal. people assume they have no idea what they are talking about so just ignore their wishes. they are not given the same encouragement to have a natural birth, to breast feed, to co sleep etc. they are always told oh parenting is so hard without that. wth? thats the easy freaking way. washing bottles, buying formula, and CIO sound pretty darn hard to me. but apparently only older and wiser moms who are married and financially secure can do those things.







: breast milk is free, natural birth is cheaper then drugs or a c section, cribs are wicked expensive, and the hormones from bfing would be really helpful to a new mom with very little support.


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## almadianna

What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).


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## 1littlebit

i haven't the slightest idea. it seems to be the "your not pregnant she is" thing. i dont know where this came from... it doesnt make any sense.. its awfully hard to accidently get pregnant all by your self.


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## almadianna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i haven't the slightest idea. it seems to be the "your not pregnant she is" thing. i dont know where this came from... it doesnt make any sense.. its awfully hard to accidently get pregnant all by your self.

yup, something about it taking two to tango....


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## the_lissa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).

I hate this attitude. I find it so frustrating how if a man is a good, or hell, even adequate dad, he gets praised to death. Like that should be standard, and how often do women get praised, especially for doing the minimum.


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## almadianna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I hate this attitude. I find it so frustrating how if a man is a good, or hell, even adequate dad, he gets praised to death. Like that should be standard, and how often do women get praised, especially for doing the minimum.

I hate it too. I actually find it demeaning to men as well as women.

It is like we should not expect anything from them because they are "just men" or how the fact that they are a "man" is used as an excuse for incompetent behaviour. On the other hand just regular good parenting is made to seem like it is a needle in a haystack when it comes to men...

For women it is so vicious, if a child gets hurt... why is is always mom's fault? Why is the first question out of people's mouths "where was that child's mother?". I knew of a case in real life where a child died in the care of her father and you would not believe the vitrol towards the poor mother... as to WHY she was working. WHY was the child alone with their father. WHY werent you watching her.. it was astounding.


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## Arwyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
When I hear women talk about their husbands, it is often like they have another, very obnoxious, child.

I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore _she_ must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

Although, there's the other angle where thanks to the patriarchy, a lot of men really DO suck in the domestic sphere, and I'm not sure where the line is between not bitching about one's guy to avoid perpetuating patriarchy, and agitating for change so that he carries his own load. The patriarchy is amazingly good at setting up double binds like that, where either way it wins and women lose.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

Well, I think it exists because it's the flip side of the above: men can do no wrong, women can do no good. (I wrote a blog post once, in reply to a "quiz" for moms led to the answer "you're a bad mom"; every answer for the dads in mine was "you're a great dad".) If men don't participate in the home, it's just a shrug and an eyeroll and "boys will be boys"; if they do, they're super heroes deserving of medals and awards and ridiculous heaps of praise.

The only way I've figured out to change it is just by refusing to participate; men are _supposed_ to do housework, and parent their children, and I refuse to either praise them for doing it or write them off for not.

I don't know how I would address the issue with a daughter, but it is one area where I think I'm benefited by being male-partnered: the Boychick learns how to behave, and what is expected of him, by having a dad who models full and equal responsibility in the house and in parenting, without expecting or receiving praise, excuses, or belittlement.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore _she_ must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

You have a great point there, and I totally agree. The remark from your friend shows the expectation of women to be the caring parties in a family - to "care" both for children and men, to meet their every needs. That is not what I meant though... since I explicitly chose not to share my path with a man, it seems easier not to, to me, since I don't want to be partnered up.

Having said that, I think it is so important that more child friendly employment opportunities are opened up. What are your experiences? I am in the process of setting up my own little business since I lost my (at home) writing job because of the crisis. Surprise surprise, it turns out to be in an acceptable field - sewing. I'm making carriers and kids clothes. I guess it is one of the limited options available for a WAHM.


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## Teenytoona

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.

It depends on the moment how I'll react. If it's someone in passing or someone I know will just be jerkish about it, I'll let it slide. If it hits me on the right day I might give a snappy comeback. Other times I might give a quick fiery comeback, or maybe even give a mini-lecture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 

Another question for you all - on the "case against circumcision" board, I frequently read comments about how society protects our daughters, but is biased against our sons. It talks about institutional bias against men. While I am anti-circ, the way in which these comments are formulated rub me the wrong way. What are your opinions?

This does drive me up a wall male circumcision and FGM are so different. If they were comperable it would be akin to cutting off the penis and then sewing it up to give a little hole to pee through. Ain't no bleepin' ballpark.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Actually I'm not sure about that. I wanted to agree at first, but actually I think that young single women without children are even less respected. In patriarchal society, if a woman is not defined by someone else (her husband, her father, her children) she does not have an identity. A woman who is not a wife, a daughter, a mother, a widow, or a nun is not categorizable in her own right, because she does not have a role. A woman without a "role", especially a young one, is a non-entity, not lableable, and therefore it is not necessary to treat her with respect. She's assumed to be waiting to acquire a "real" role (being a woman is not enough alone). At least a mother is not assumed to be a weak mindless sex object in quite the same way (no, mothers get to be madonnas! woohoo!







).
Though I'm not a mother so I can't say with much authority, I'm just pointing out what I've observed. I do agree that single mothers (particularly young ones) are not respected - perhaps in different ways? I mean, on the one hand a woman gets a certain amount of "weight" as a mother that she does not have as simply a woman, but on the other hand if she's single she's not going about motherhood in the "right" way so there's obviously a lot of judgement about that, spoken or not. And if she's young she'll get the BS and patronizing/ignoring that is given to young women anyway. So yeah actually, I don't know. What is "not being respected"? Being actively _disrespected_ or just being ignored and trivialized? Both I guess. Sigh.
So I guess that didn't really answer anything at all







I guess I feel like young women are the least respected members of society regardless of circumstances, and some things can make it worse, like being single or being a mother (and we all know how much society respects and looks out for mothers, regardless of ideals about motherhood







).

I seem to have missed the comment Hazelnut made, but I do agree with the "society needs to have a role to put a woman into" concept. It's really wierd being a non-category. I've been that one for years, before I was partnered and then after partnered being a stepmom (but not officially since we only fairly recently married). People don't know how to react to you, you don't fit in. I feel like I"m more accepted as an adult now that I'm "really" married and am a "real" mom, but it's different.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
ITA. The idea that your partner is a 'saint" for sticking with you if you are "stupid enough" to become pregnant at a young age is utterly repulsive and very insulting. I am sorry you are having to deal with that prejudice.

Something I have come across quite a bit is how lots of people in a business or political context will call women by their first name, while men attending the same meeting have somehow automatically acquired the right to be referred to as Mr So and So. Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find it very downgrading.

On the first point, with how young moms are treated, I know I used to be one of those that looked on them with scorn, though from a different perspective than average society). For me, for a long time, having kids at all was akin to putting onself in prison for a man who wasn't worth it (issues from upbringing). So I'd look at a young mom and wonder why she'd willingly get into that trap, no man was worth it. But, I've learned and evolved and am working much harder at getting to know the individual/situation before placing a judgement on it. Well let me rephrase that, I do snapjudge in my mind, but then I call myself on it (usually) and rethink that initial judgement.

Oh, yeah, that Mr So and So Vs Jill. Or better yet there are men and girls in the workplace.







I knew some older women in their 60-70's who still got called girls and they'd ask how old did they have to be to be a "woman" ya know?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I agree with this, both wrt to the circ issue and everything really. I am mostly discussing feminism or gender issues or even raising kids online rather than with irl acquaintances and friends, and in those communities this is an viewpoint I see a lot. I have three sons and gender roles and stereotypes do concern me, but I do not think that boys are at a disadvantage more than girls, and indeed I think they have less to fear and less discrimination to face. It shocks me actually, the hostility with which feminism is treated by some mothers. I think they really think it is an attack on boys and men, which I think is unfortunate.

Sometimes I think that there's a different and more difficult responsibility with boys. How do we teach them to not only not be misogynists, but to empower them to do the right thing, overcome societal norms and call out their peers on it? IMO men calling other men out on sexism makes more an impression than a woman calling a man out on it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 

i am working on starting an organization geared towards helping these young women get the information and support they need. i think a good birth experience and a successful nursing relationship can be incredibly beneficial to someone whose pregnancy was unexpected. i want to give them the information they need to realize that they can do this, that they were made to be mothers, and that you don't have sell your kidney on the black market to afford a baby. the simplest, cheapest way to raise a baby is the natural way... most people just doesn't realize that b/c there aren't any commercials for it.

young moms get a raw deal. people assume they have no idea what they are talking about so just ignore their wishes. they are not given the same encouragement to have a natural birth, to breast feed, to co sleep etc. they are always told oh parenting is so hard without that. wth? thats the easy freaking way. washing bottles, buying formula, and CIO sound pretty darn hard to me. but apparently only older and wiser moms who are married and financially secure can do those things.







: breast milk is free, natural birth is cheaper then drugs or a c section, cribs are wicked expensive, and the hormones from bfing would be really helpful to a new mom with very little support.

Awesome! Such a great idea, I'm glad to see this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore _she_ must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

Although, there's the other angle where thanks to the patriarchy, a lot of men really DO suck in the domestic sphere, and I'm not sure where the line is between not bitching about one's guy to avoid perpetuating patriarchy, and agitating for change so that he carries his own load. The patriarchy is amazingly good at setting up double binds like that, where either way it wins and women lose.

Well, I think it exists because it's the flip side of the above: men can do no wrong, women can do no good. (I wrote a blog post once, in reply to a "quiz" for moms led to the answer "you're a bad mom"; every answer for the dads in mine was "you're a great dad".) If men don't participate in the home, it's just a shrug and an eyeroll and "boys will be boys"; if they do, they're super heroes deserving of medals and awards and ridiculous heaps of praise.

The only way I've figured out to change it is just by refusing to participate; men are _supposed_ to do housework, and parent their children, and I refuse to either praise them for doing it or write them off for not.

I don't know how I would address the issue with a daughter, but it is one area where I think I'm benefited by being male-partnered: the Boychick learns how to behave, and what is expected of him, by having a dad who models full and equal responsibility in the house and in parenting, without expecting or receiving praise, excuses, or belittlement.


OMG yes, if you're a woman and you bring your kid into work one day you're at best, a nuisance. If you're a man you're an amazing father! I too am of the mindset of not complimenting for somethign that should be standard. Of course that's my ideal when it comes to raising kids too, but I don't always meet it.

Now that it comes down to it, I reckon there was something else I wanted to say, but popped outta my head... ah well...


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## Shabbers

Teenytoona - did you used to post at the old Ms. Boards? Your name is familiar...


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## Teenytoona

Yeap, same SN there. I take it you did too?


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## Shabbers

Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again


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## honeybee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).

I have only boys, and once someone discovers that baby #3 is indeed a boy, I inevitably get, "Oh, you're lucky they're boys! So much better than all girls. Boys are so much easier..." It always baffles me that people seem to feel a need to console me when I'm really happy with my boys. And then when you try to narrow down why they think boys are easier, it usually comes down to worrying about your teen girl getting pg. I don't get that. Why would I worry less about my boys? If they get a girl pg, I assume they will be just as affected as the mother. And they may have no say over what happens to that child (because of course it is her body, her decision with everything from whether/how/where to birth, whether to bf,etc.). But there is a societal expectation that pg is not a problem for boys.









I don't think there's much point in debating which gender is most harmed or oppressed. The fact is that patriarchy harms both males and females. It just harms them in different ways. Maybe I'll keep notes so I can eventually write that book about raising boys as a feminist mom!







I have really been toying with the idea of starting a blog along these lines, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with the blogging world in general.


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## Arwyn

honeybee: that was what made me start my own blog! And of course, _after_ I started it, I discovered there _is_ actually a pretty large group of feminists blogging about parenting, and parenting boys in particular. But I always think adding another voice is a good thing!

There are some really interesting responses to the question "what does a feminist mother look like?" here.


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## honeybee

Thanks for the link! It looks really interesting. I think I will have to investigate blogging a little more to see if it's something I'm really interested in. I love to write, and I keep thinking about all these ideas I want to write down... but then again, I'm pretty strapped for time these days.


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## honeybee

So, I found a really GREAT book in the used section of Schuller's yesterday, and I just wanted to share with those who will understand my excitement.







:

It's called The Wandering Uterus, and it's about reproductive rights, looked at from a feminist perspective. BUT, it challenges the idea that all these new technologies are actually improving womenkinds reproductive choices or freeing them from patriarchy. I've only read the first chapter, but I'm finding it really fascinating. This goes way beyond the A debate, which I know is banned from discussion here. It is talking about everything from fertility treatments to birthing, etc. The first chapter really hit home on how women's reproduction is regulated all over the place, but there are NO regulations on the corporations and businesses profiting from them (as infertility treatments is BIG business). The book was written in 1997, so I'd be interested to find out if any more regulations have come into place since then.


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## Hazelnut

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shabbers* 
Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again









oh I remember you! I was eisbaer. hi.


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## Teenytoona

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shabbers* 
Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again









Nice to see you again too!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
oh I remember you! I was eisbaer. hi.









Ahh the reunions! I love it!


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## MittensKittens

That link is really interesting - thanks Arwyn!


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## MittensKittens

Are you all still alive?


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## Hazelnut

I was going to ask you all what you thought of that whole Letterman thing. I don't watch him, but it was in the papers.


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## transformed

I do not know If I am a feminist. LOL. Certainly more so than when I started here at mdc.

I enjoyed this immensely: http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/node/681

I am completely disenfranchised that my choice to stay at home is 150% not valued y my husband OR society.

I just read a story about "cougars" in NPR that made my blood curdle. Just at the mere mention of the word.

I find myself increasingly wondering why men can have bachelor parties with naked women and sex and women aren't supposed to. And why it is glorified.

I asked my husband if he thought I could et a shirt altered and he said "No, you just need larger tits."

I am trying to start a business and that makes me a lazy a$$ but if my husband was trying to start a company - he would e an "entrepreneur"








:

I am kind of.

I have my opinions. Some of them fit into that definition....certainly some dont....I dont know what that "makes me."


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## ursusarctos

*Discussion question: how does radical feminism shape your religious/philosophical views?* Yes, I know that's vague... or perhaps "open ended" is a nicer way to put it









One thing I get really worked up about is how I am supposed to just "get over" the fact that the great majority of philosophers both western and eastern were explicitly misogynist. You read about their ideas of what humanity's problems are and their solutions, and then you come to the "about women, the other, separate group that cooks, cleans and bears our babies" part. Women just didn't fall under these guys' definition of "human". So now that the definition of human has expanded to include women, words originally intended only for men are supposed to apply to me too? The argument "but they were important thinkers!" doesn't really cut it for me anymore - I don't care what the sociohistorical context is, if a man thinks of women only as objects (as opposed to subjects) it causes me to seriously question the validity of the rest of his opinions.
The more I identify _as a woman_, not a "human" (which means male-identified as the term is used in our society) the less I am able to let "just a little misogyny on the side" slide. For example, as a teenager I very much liked the Beats - Jack Kerouac especially. Then I realized that women had no place in their idea of humanity - in their world women existed to take care, to bail out, to put out, to wait at home while the men had their counterculture adventures. Again, women were objects, not fellow subjects. And as I identified more and more as a woman, I realized that they were not speaking to me, and their work mostly lost its appeal for me.
As for religion, similar problem as I have with philosophers - women are left out, on the side, if they are not directly put down. And now that women are people too, we are expected to just pretend that all these old males were actually speaking to everyone, not just men. Which was simply not the case. Am I making any sense here?
I also find it interesting how the ideas of a lot of enlightenment thinkers helped to form the society that eventually enabled feminism to exist as an open movement - yet also formed the basis for the materialist, mechanistic worldview that invalidates the subjective, physical, emotional, intuitive and is currently destroying the environment and quality of life of pretty much everyone in more or less blatant ways.
Anyway, just a little ramble - anyone else have thoughts?


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## MittensKittens

Absolutely. "When you ignore the misogyny, their work is actually really good" doesn't do the trick for me. Of course, there are philosophers who are not misogynist.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Absolutely. "When you ignore the misogyny, their work is actually really good" doesn't do the trick for me. Of course, there are philosophers who are not misogynist.

Of course... I think. But then I try to think of some (especially males) and I can't come up with any







It seems that sympathizing with the plight of women is what counts for non-misogyny in the minds of most people - but that doesn't always add up.
Though I certainly don't have a degree in philosophy. Quite possibly I am missing a lot


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## Hazelnut

Interesting post, ursaarctos. I agree. I've had the same issue with writers. And you almost feel grateful when reading about them and literature about them even _acknowledges_ that they were misogynist. Like, well that sucks, but thanks for thinking it worth mentioning...I'll stop reading Alexander Pope now, lol.

I would say it's the same for all male historical figures. We're supposed to just shrug off their misogyny as their being a product of their times...which would indeed seem to invalidate some of their greatness, imo. I recall at work bringing this up wrt some history textbooks and my point was largely ignored. I just thought it should be acknowledged. I think it's just a testament to the lingering misogyny- the apathy.

And then what gets me is that any time the "Are you a feminist?" question comes up, so many say that they're a "humanist!" as if we're all equal, and have been for so long, and this feminist word is so alienating to men. Grr.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
And then what gets me is that any time the "Are you a feminist?" question comes up, so many say that they're a "humanist!" as if we're all equal, and have been for so long, and this feminist word is so alienating to men. Grr.

Yes! I agree. I used to be one of those people too - until I realized that I'm a woman, that is. If a lable basically invalidates your way of being/experiencing the world/experiences of discrimination (as the word "humanist" does to all subjectivities _not_ white heterosexual male), it's not a lable you want to be claiming.
I think part of the fear of calling oneself feminist comes from the bad image feminism has been smeared with. It also invites conflict and disapproval, which is not something people want to deal with. And of course women especially are not supposed to seriously dissent.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Of course... I think. But then I try to think of some (especially males) and I can't come up with any







It seems that sympathizing with the plight of women is what counts for non-misogyny in the minds of most people - but that doesn't always add up.
Though I certainly don't have a degree in philosophy. Quite possibly I am missing a lot









Well... I would like some help on that one too, because I might be missing something, and if that is the case, I would certainly be very interested in some new reading material. Perhaps even mentioning those I was thinking of might be controversial but indeed, they are the only philosophers I can think of who are not misogynist - Marx and Engels.


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## 1littlebit

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.


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## 1littlebit

exactly! telling women that the is only one 'real or right' choice for where to give birth is about as far from feminism as it gets. although i have noticed that there are many women who say that they are not feminists ... this is another thing i don't understand. why would you not want women to have a choice? i don't understand why a woman would not be a feminist. is there something about this i am not understanding? to me feminism is about a woman's right to make her own choices in her life, her body, her spirit, etc. how is someone not in favor of this?


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Well... I would like some help on that one too, because I might be missing something, and if that is the case, I would certainly be very interested in some new reading material. Perhaps even mentioning those I was thinking of might be controversial but indeed, they are the only philosophers I can think of who are not misogynist - Marx and Engels.

Hmm, Engels was the one who wrote about the origin of women's subjugation being in non-communist society, right?
Yes, here we go. I knew there had to be some dirt. This article is rather trite but notifies us of the unsurprising fact that Engels behaved just like every other 19th century man with money








I don't know much about Marx, though I do know that in the days of Communist revolutions women's rights were explicitly sidelined as irrelevant: when class-based oppression ceased, then so would sex-based oppression, automatically.
Also, I don't like the Communist emphasis on work outside the home as the path to equality for all. I think that that's just the other side of the patriarchal/protestant work ethic coin. I mean, if your meaning in life is based on work, how is that inherently against anything in a patriarchal/capitalist society? Where is the emphasis on home life? On love, friendship, intuitive knowing, respect for nature, balance, emotional health, etc. etc. all the things that patriarchal society gives women responsibility for and then reviles?
I don't know if that's Marx though, since I've only actually read excerpts of him







Though I do remember being struck by how little he seemed to differ in his basic attitude about the world from other men of his time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

Totally agree!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.

So true. Glad to hear that your legal situation is looking up, btw!


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## MittensKittens

Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though







.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though







.

Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?

I only have real life experience with communism grafted onto an ex colonial, former feudal system (Korea). I can tell you that that ain't pretty. However, having been to both parts of this country (communist north, capitalist south) I can honestly say that - not commenting on other aspects of both societies - both halves are equally misogynist. In different ways, but definitely equally.


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## 1littlebit

so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist? i have issues with capitalism and communism... but then i don't think following any system 100% is a good idea... a combination of different aspects from each makes more sense IMO


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist?

It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).

Of course, that doesn't exist anywhere in the world, I don't think. Not yet, anyway.









Are there any good books written about socialism by women?

And, wait...I just remembered: anarchy isn't misogynist. Altho, that doesn't mean anarchists can't be.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).









Exactly. I think the reason capitalism and communism haven't worked out is due to the attitudes of the people making up the system. Doesn't matter what kind of political structure you theoretically have, if you worship power and money and selfishness, misogyny, and disregard for the natural world/cycles are rewarded then you're going to get a pretty f***ed up system.

And yeah, anarchism probably goes along the same lines. Selfish, misogynist anarchists out of touch with nature will result in anarchy that doesn't work out.
It isn't inherently misogynist though, you're right. In fact there's even anarchafeminism.
As for feminist socialism, there have been many feminist socialists and I think they used to be more intertwined in the 70s (at least Germaine Greer's earlier work was socialist and feminist), though I can't remember any names.
Oh interesting, I just read the article I linked to:

Quote:

In modern times anarcha-feminism has been noted for its heavy influence on ecofeminism. "Ecofeminists rightly note that except for anarcha feminist, no feminist perspective has recognized the importance of healing the nature/culture division."
I usually identify myself as an ecofeminist but it seems not all that separate from anarchafeminist...
It also seems that voluntary (not institutional) socialism is part of a.f.:

Quote:

They refer to the creation of a society, based on cooperation, sharing, mutual aid, etc. as the "feminization of society."


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## transformed

so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. (







) I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.


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## princesstutu

*transformed*, I have no book ideas, but hopefully someone else will. I'd love to read a book or two on that topic.

I was discussing that very issue with my father a couple weeks ago. Men are socialized to view women as crazy and then when an actual crazy woman comes into their lives, they blow off her craziness as something expected. Women are socialized to expect the males who like them to be mean to them and so it can take a while for many women to understand that they're being abused (if they see it at all).

It's all a trap to keep us unevolved.


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## barefootmama0709

I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.


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## greenmamapagan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barefootmama0709* 
I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.









Two threads that always seem to come up next to each other in my subscriptions box are this one and one about "traditional home-making" and personally (although I think it's funny) I don't see any discrepancy in that


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## umami_mommy




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## Hazelnut

I really value the work I do at home. I feel it's society that doesn't. That being said, I would never want a women who would rather go to work to stay at home. And for me, the only part that feels in discord with that my feminism is the financial dependence that results. Whether or not I trust my spouse, that position has not served women well. However I think there are solutions to that that do not involve my running off to work full-time. Maternity leave, paternity leave, work flexibility., part-time work. Heck I have part-time work and I can barely do it with my dh's FT job. He's not in a high powered job by any means and his hours are still long. Where it gets murkier and more confusing for me is staying at home beyond the early years. By that I don't mean that I disapprove or it's wrong or unfeminist. I just think it becomes stickier for women, at least in society as it is now.


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## princesstutu

That is exactly why I have an issue with capitalism. It is inherent within capitalism to oppress, whether it's the oppression of women, children, men, or the planet.

A woman should not have to suffer within her society and then suffer moreso simply b/c she chose the role of continuing the human population. What we allow as normal in society would represent mental dysfunction in an individual. I'm not sure why it's so hard for most ppl to understand that and get motivated to do something about it.

I used to think bucking societal norms by taking my children everywhere a revolutionary (if not exhausting) act, but...I'm thinking it's time to advance the revolutionary aspects of motherhood beyond simply doing the opposite of "mainstream" mothers.

I don't have any ideas, yet, tho. Maybe this pregnancy will inspire me.


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## amitymama

Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello.









Hi

What have you all been up to lately in terms of activism etc? Me not much, other than attending a lactivist demonstration.


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## amitymama

I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer.


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## MittensKittens

That sounds great. I haven't been to London in a long while, but I am glad to hear that feminism is alive and well over there. Does the conference have any particular theme or subject?

Haven't read the book, but it sounds good. The problem with living in third world countries is that it is tricky to order books in other languages, particularly that kind of book.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer.


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## princesstutu

Welcome! I'm glad to see more interest in this thread, although I don't post often on MDC, I do come around.

MittensKittens, maybe someone can order it for you and mail it to you? You could paypal the money or something? A relative or someone in another country or something?

I would offer, but I'm in the process of moving to San Francisco. I'm looking forward to seeing what the activist scene is like there these days.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

I flipped through it when I saw it in the bookstore! It looked very good. I <3 the birth/parenting section at my local bookstore (ok, actually the largest and best bookstore in Finland, but still...). Even though the mainstream birth and parenting culture is still rather "conservative" here this bookstore consistently stocks books on natural birth and childrearing









Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. (







) I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.

Transformed, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after I read your post. When I was growing up and especially as a teenager I was used to thinking of my mom as this crazy, unstable, nagging unpleasant person who drove my dad to be absent, irresponsible, keep his personal life from her. As I've gotten older I've gotten to understand my mom more, and now I've started to see how much my dad's behavior ("normal" for a male in our society) actually drove _her_ to be how she is ("crazy" - obsessive about cleanliness, morally black-and-white, overly protective, "overly" enthusiastic about holidays, family reunions, etc., somewhat "nagging"). I see more and more how my dad refused to put energy into making a family and keeping up a household, even though he did work long hours to support us. I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner. I see how my mom saw this as a normal relationship dynamic due to her conditioning as a girl and young woman and how my dad saw it as normal due to his conditioning.
My mom also tried to live up to a standard of "housewife and mother" that is impossible to attain alone (and men, husbands, are not supposed to help a woman be a good housewife but rather battle her efforts the whole time). When one doesn't attain the impossible housewife standard, one is vilified by society for being a bad woman, and when one does attain it, one is vilified for being "crazy" (obsessive about cleanliness and morality, uptight, scourge of "more relaxed" men and children everywhere). It's like when women with large breasts are given advantages for being large-breasted, which encourages women to desire large breasts, and then when a woman gets breast implants everyone laughs at her for being so insecure and looking "ridiculous".
It's so unfair: women are given the role of "keeper of morals" (upkeeper of social mores and duties), conditioned to the duty from very young, and then they are accused by men and women who have rebelled against that conditioning of being "uptight". Even people my age, university guys in their mid 20s, complain about their female partners making them come home from partying earlier, eat vegetables, not ride unsafe motorcycles, use hand sanitizer, stop smoking, exercise, have nice dinner parties, go to bed early, pick up their underwear, be "nice" - see a pattern? And yet they choose to be with the type of woman who finds such things as the above extremely important, having almost a moral quality, and they complain about their women's "restrictions" in a way that lets you know that they actually want and like their women's "uptight" behavior. So the woman gets complained about, the man gets to feel righteous, the woman gets to feel righteous, and there is no true communication or trust. Women like me, who do my utmost not to take on the role of moral lifestyle police, get to hear their friends complain, with utmost sincerity, about how uncivilized and wrongheaded their male partners are for not picking up their underwear or not stopping before that one last beer or not wanting to clean the house on saturdays - and while I want to validate my friends as people with real concerns, I hate the fact that they have been socialized to consider those things to be almost as important as the fact that they love their partners and their partners love them. And I also hate that men have been socialized to consider such things completely trivial. So instead of women communicating to men that, when they live with someone, they would really like it if both parties could be neat and pick up their own dirty clothes, or share the cleaning equally, and men respecting that for the small, reasonable, personal-responsibility issue it is, or women communicating to men that when they pick up their underwear it shows that they care and makes them feel loved and men accepting and respecting that, we have women getting enraged at men leaving their underwear on the floor and men completely disregarding that rage because they think a messy floor is trivial.
I'm rambling here, am I making any sense?


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## MittensKittens

I have been hanging around mainstream Serbian parenting forums recently, and they are full of weird, fascinating comments. What is your take on a woman saying "I can't really expect my husband to be in the delivery room with me, can I? I mean, I know that's the moment when I first hold my newborn is magical for me, but us women can't really expect men to also be able to love a bloody, objectively ugly newborn, can we?"

Everyone agreed!!!

I am just hoping that my son will grow up to be a normal man.


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## greenmamapagan

Wow Mittens! Most men here would be devestated to be kept out of the room their child was born in.


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## Hazelnut

Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid.

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.


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## Hazelnut

Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already with my kids. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid. I clean up after them. I try to have them learn to clean up after themselves, but dh doesn't really. So guess what that makes me?

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty. We've been seeing a therapist to help deal with my oldest's difficult behavior, and he was talking about how when one parent is laxer (usually the father) it usually results in the other parent (usually the mother) being even stricter to then deal with the consequential behavioral fall out. It often takes two.

I think this is very true:
_I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner._

My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.

Yes. This. I see now how this happened to my mom. When I thought of her as nagging and uptight about chores, she was just trying to get a little help cleaning up a house that we *all* messed up. Since none of us liked cleaning, and my dad wouldn't clean given the choice, we saw my mom as this crazy woman who insisted on us cleaning, like it was her thing or something, and if she just wouldn't be so uptight then everything would be fine. I'm so sad about that now. She must have felt so alone. I also think that my parents' backwards relationship conditioning from the 60s didn't allow them to see that this was the actual situation, so there was just resentment and misunderstanding from all sides.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.

Uh huh. My own relationship with a not-at-all-old-school man is exactly what has led to me understanding my mother so much better than I did before. Again with women being saddled with the "lifestyle police" role - girls are taught to "see" dirt, boys aren't (this was a big one in my childhood, I remember - because boys are "naturally" dirty and untidy so why teach them to clean and pick up?). So who sees that an apartment is dirty and needs cleaning? The woman. Since the man doesn't see it, she is forced to ask for his help in cleaning if she doesn't want to do it herself, which, when the request is repeated (which it will be because the man continues to be passive about mess), can often become "nagging" or can be interpreted as nagging by the man, who has been trained to think that cleaning is unnecessary and to be avoided unless someone (mother/wife figure) makes you. So when the man continually avoids cleaning the woman gets frustrated and will overreact to things that she would have been more reasonable about had the man just done it himself without her asking. I remember my mother being distraught over having to ask my dad for the gazillionth time to wash dishes or something. I didn't understand her rage at having to ask. Now I do.
Men are overwhelmingly not taught to take care of themselves, let alone others, nor to take responsibility for the upkeep of shared spaces. No wonder married men do so much better psychologically than unmarried men. It's a crying shame, for the girls who have to take on the burden of responsibility for everyone's wellbeing from such a young age, and for the boys who are not taught that caring for themselves and others improves everyone's quality of life and so end up with major handicaps when living alone as adults and later in relationships.


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## freestylemama

Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?


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## Tattooed Hand

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to share some recent experiences and challenges that I have been facing since I got pregnant and see what people think and if they've had similar challenges.

First off, I'm a PhD student who is finishing up her dissertation. My adviser is a feminist and feminist scholar. She has two children. When I told her I was pregnant, her response was to say that now I had a firm deadline and she put my on a pretty rigorous completion schedule. I wasn't able to keep up with it, especially since we came up with it when I was 8 weeks pregnant and I was nauseaous, exhausted, emotional and headachy well into my 14th week. I told her I was not feeling well ahead of time and then when I went into her office, she told me that I "looked fine" and she expected me "to look much worse." As if she didn't believe me. Then she told me that she only had trouble with the smell of baked goods when she was in first trimester. (ALL food made me want to gag).

During this deadline creating meeting she also advised me to sign up for daycare right away so that a slot would be available by the time the baby was 3 months old. I told her that I didn't want to put such baby in daycare and that the places she recommended accept fulltime babies (8:30-5:30) and that I wanted to breastfeed. She said that she put both her kids in that daycare full time from when they were 3 months old and they are just fine. "How else can you teach full time?"

While I respect her choices, I really felt strange, like she was part of the larger institutional system that was penalizing me because my body was acting out of script with the presumed (male) academic body that policies and progress are based on. Because I fell behind with my deadline, I was forced to pay an additional semester of tuition instead of being given a leave of absence based on a medical exemption. (Long story, details boring, but I wrangled long and hard and I have no recourse.) But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man. I should just produce at the same rate and adopt parenting practices that allow me to function like a man in a professional setting. Instead, I am only teaching part time in an adjunct position and not applying for jobs this year because at interview and application times I will be either trying to complete my diss before the baby comes, heavily pregnant and/or with a newborn that I don't want to leave to fly across the country for all day conferences/campus visits. I'm happly to take it easy for a couple of years and have this laid back schedule that allows me to breastfeed and keep my baby out of daycare until it's a year old (though we might get some part time help to come to the house.) Then, the plan is that when I get a tenure track job, to have my husband be the primary parent with the less demanding job (or no job for a while).

Speaking of which, the second topic is the challenge to the relationship. My husband is a feminist (in practice and in study). But this pregnancy has really underlined the physical differences between us alot. Everything from certain physical limitations I face to different feelings we have about the birth are really strange for us.

I'd love to hear what you guys think. Sorry if this has been covered in the thread, I only read 3 pages of the 7...


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestylemama* 
She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?

Well I don't have any kids yet but I _was_ a super sparkly girly girl when I was little







pink was my favorite color, cinderella was my favorite disney movie, and I actually refused to wear pants at all until I was around 10, only skirts. Fwiw I currently don't wear a bra or shave regularly and have never worn everyday makeup. I'm very far from a girly girl in my behavior and pastimes - I guess I just sort of grew out of it gradually. I would say don't worry about it, as she gets older and you expose her to feminist values she will pick those up. There's nothing wrong with little girls liking frilly girly things, just as long as they aren't badgered into it by rigid gender expectations, which it sounds like your daughter isn't.

Tattooed Hand, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It does sound like your adviser is expecting you to pretty much deny your physical reality in order to pursue an academic career in the "normal" way, that is, like a man with no family. Which is wrong and unfair imo - she's missing a big part of feminism if she can't see how the system totally neglects the needs of mothers and children and therefore won't cut you any slack. It's wrong that the "standard" of human being in our society is (unattached) man and women are expected to conform to that standard if they want to "succeed". There needs to be more maternity/paternity leave available and respected.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo

Hi, ladies! I just came back to MDC. So glad to see this thread still hanging around on the first page.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestylemama* 
Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?

Ugh. My youngest daughter is girly to the extreme. I admit that I have a hard time handling it. There seems to be nothing for her and I to connect over. We don't enjoy any of the same activities, nor is she interested in hearing about the issues I care about like my two older girls are. She thinks all the volunteer work and activism I do is "boring".







All she wants to do is talk with her friends, watch movies, and go shopping. I don't know how to make her care about less trivial issues and it has created a real rift between us.

Sorry. That turned into a rant about my daughter. None of it was meant to apply to your daughter, lol. My oldest went through a 'girly' phase when she was little, but now she's become her own person, not a tomboy or a girly-girl, just Beth.







I'm very proud of her.

My little twin boys like girly stuff too, lol. Sparkles and frilly clothes. I have pictures of them playing dress-up that ought to totally horrify them when they're teenagers.

Quote:

But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man.
This is so common, among feminists and people in general. I feel it's less a matter of expecting women to act like 'men', and more a matter that people of both genders in professional careers are expected to put their work ahead of their families. There's a profound lack of paternity leave and accommodations for working fathers, just as there's a lack of maternity leave and accommodations for working mothers. Society seems to think children should come second. It's difficult to fathom why this is, since without children there would soon be no more society, but there's a real prejudice against children at work here.


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## minkajane

I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent _and refusal_, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.


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## delfin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent _and refusal_, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.


ther's this great author im reading, who talks a lot about what she calls the robotization of mothers, of the patriarchal mothers, handling all desicions and care of children to whomever wears a uniform. Her name is Casilda Rodriganez, and her books are free for dowload at her wbsite, but she is spanish! I highly recommend her.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent _and refusal_, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.

Yes, everything you said is spot-on. I'm not good at keeping my mouth shut about birth, and have opened up some of my friends' minds to natural birthing practices. I've managed to make some enemies with my opinions too, but the positive effects are more than worthwhile.

I've had (and am continuing to have) too many of my own issues with breastfeeding to be much of a spokeswoman for that.


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## chirp

subbing while i catch up on such a great thread!!!

glad i found this!!


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## minkajane

Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.

YES! I had that same thought process when I watched that movie too! Argh, how annoying! That movie was chock full of irritating cultural standards being taken for granted though...


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## transformed

Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids.







: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...


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## Teenytoona

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.


Oh god, how I hate this attitude. Yes I see it alot. I also hear it here and there in casual conversation, esp at work (I work in a male-dominated profession).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids.







: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...


I think it is. If it were a man who stayed at home with the kids, I'm sure he'd be more "saintly" in others' eyes.

ITA on the birthing issue too.

I'm enjoying the discussion on "cool dads and neurotic moms" I quite agree there too.

Wish I was feeling more analytical and deep today, but just wanted to pop in with an "I hear you."


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## Hazelnut

Yeah one of the things I love about living in the suburbs is that it's not nearly as homogenous and conservative as I thought, AND AND I get more respect as a SAHM. Yeah I read the news, but for now as a SAHM and barely pt wahm, I have no desire to hear all the public discourse bashing mothers and SAHMs that I hear so often when I dip my foot in the topic online elsewhere, or when I am out with childless friends.

Also that "lock your daughter up" humor? It's not even funny anymore, if it ever was! So trite. I think if a comedian put a spin on it more often, it would be original.


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## transformed

I was listening to an interview on the radio this morning (from July when the Warped Tour was here) and the DJ said "So, what do you think about all the chick bands on the tour? Do you think that was deliberate? "

"Oh yeah, just luck..."








:


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## simplespirit

subbing...


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids.







: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...

Definitely a feminist issue! I've started listing the work I did as a SAHM as volunteer work.


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## basje

Subbing


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## greenmamapagan

Gald to see this thread is still alive







FAK so can't catch-up. Have you seen this:
http://mothersforwomenslib.com/2009/...ist-parenting/


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## oceane

hi everyone!







I'm pleased to see this thread and hope to join the discussion. gotta go right now though.


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## princesstutu

I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

ITA. There's only a problem when there is a prescribed, non-negotiable way to be feminine (or masculine for that matter). A girl being forced to wear skirts and pink for no reason other than that she is a girl (like my mom in the 60s) is something completely different from a little girl feeling happy and girly when she wears skirts and pink and therefore making those the center of her wardrobe (me as a child).


----------



## oceane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.


----------



## village idiot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

Yeah that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceane* 
I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.

And that too.


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## chirp

going along the same lines that it's kinda dangerous to look down on a young girl's behavior for being girly...i think it just opens up a can of worms to call it girly no matter who's doing it.

my grown man husband loves flowers and butterflies. it was his idea to have a brightly colored butterfly garden. my son carries around baby dolls and likes to play dress up with jewelery and my clothing.

if i were to call their actions "girly" i would be saying that somehow their actions were unfitting for boys. when they're not. they are just part of who they are.

with a *hopeful* little girl on the way...i am so happy to be able to pass on the physical knowledge of being a woman to someone. but i recognize that i have to be careful with how i present girl and womanhood in general. We don't have television. So if she is genuinely interested in princess characters, and wearing make up then so be it. I think I can trust that she's not being programmed through someone else's standards. I wouldn't want to take away who she is just to fit my idea of "womanly." My mom has been telling me to carry a purse all my life...if my child decides that she would like to carry a purse then so be it. As long as it wasn't my mom who put her up to it.


----------



## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chirp* 
going along the same lines that it's kinda dangerous to look down on a young girl's behavior for being girly...i think it just opens up a can of worms to call it girly no matter who's doing it.


I agree, of course. Given that this is the language we currently couch these discussions in, I used it. I try to revamp the language, but it's a big job. In conversations with like minds, I tend to let my language guard down a bit.

Thanks for the reminder, though.


----------



## chirp

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I agree, of course. Given that this is the language we currently couch these discussions in, I used it. I try to revamp the language, but it's a big job. In conversations with like minds, I tend to let my language guard down a bit.

Thanks for the reminder, though.









of course!! even i had trouble coming up with another word that was not "girly" but allowed mdc readers to get what we were talking about.

foofoo? lol. i think that's pretty judgmental. i'd prefer someone call my son girly...than foofoo. at least girly doesn't HAVE to be an insult...it just depends on who's saying it and how they mean it.


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## ~D~

I wanted to comment if that's ok. I've been







b/c I really think I have a lot to learn on this for many reasons. But this is what I really wanted to say about the word 'girly'... Chirp, I looked for a definition for this word and this all I came up with:
girl⋅ie
  /ˈgɜrli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gur-lee] Show IPA
-adjective Informal.
1.featuring nude or scantily clad young women: a girlie show; girlie magazines.
-noun
2.Offensive. a term of address used for a girl or woman.
Also, girly.

Origin:
1940-45; girl + -ie
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source
|
Link To girly
girl·ie also girl·y (gûr'lē)
adj. Often Offensive

1.Featuring minimally clothed or naked women, typically in pornography: girlie magazines.
2.Weak, timid, or effeminate. Used of men.

So if something is deemed 'girly' it literally means offensive and weak?







Wow.


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## chirp

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~D~* 
I wanted to comment if that's ok. I've been







b/c I really think I have a lot to learn on this for many reasons. But this is what I really wanted to say about the word 'girly'... Chirp, I looked for a definition for this word and this all I came up with:
girl⋅ie
  /ˈgɜrli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gur-lee] Show IPA
-adjective Informal.
1.featuring nude or scantily clad young women: a girlie show; girlie magazines.
-noun
2.Offensive. a term of address used for a girl or woman.
Also, girly.

Origin:
1940-45; girl + -ie
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source
|
Link To girly
girl·ie also girl·y (gûr'lē)
adj. Often Offensive

1.Featuring minimally clothed or naked women, typically in pornography: girlie magazines.
2.Weak, timid, or effeminate. Used of men.

So if something is deemed 'girly' it literally means offensive and weak?







Wow.


somehow i'm not surprised.

dictionaries are made by dictionary publishing companies who send out requests for definitions to authors, other publishers, and academics. sometimes they'll ask scientists or experts as the need arises.

those "chosen" few send back their definitions and the publishing companies synthesize them to create 1 defintion, or multiple, if the need arises.

i can't believe of all the people they petitioned for a definition of girly, not one of them took a non-derogatory stance on the word.

although the idea of being scantily clad...i'm wondering if the last people to come up with definitions for girly were in their 50s or 60s (or the last time they petitioned for a definition of girly was in the 50s or 60s) where the context was for "girly magazine."

still can't come up with an appropriate word. and we really shouldn't have to. we can just say, oh my child is interested in butterflies, flowers, trucks, babies, stuffed animals and play kitchens. without adding any emphasis on gender norms.

i'm wondering how you radical mommas have dealt with obvious differences in gender...that you thought wouldn't come up if you didn't foster it. but did anyway.


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## oceane

to be included in a dictionary it would also have been a documented historical meaning of the word, right? which doesn't necessarily mean the current publishers deliberately chose it but that it used to have that meaning! I think it's actually good that we know about words and their history and how they are/were embedded in power relations (though that was not mentioned in that dictionary).
I like what you said about simply describing the child's interestes without relating it to gender, chirp!

no children yet, but since my children will be surrounded by all kinds of influences early on, be it relatives, my friends, media... I guess it would be difficult to really pinpoint where gender differences stem from. plus: maybe they are just different traits of character being interpreted by us?
interested to hear what others who've btdt have to add.


----------



## Ianthe

subbing, and...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chirp* 
i'm wondering how you radical mommas have dealt with obvious differences in gender...that you thought wouldn't come up if you didn't foster it. but did anyway.

My 2.5 yr old (boy) is very interested in "boy" toys like trucks, cars, trains, etc, even though I also have dolls and stuff for him to play with too.. he is naturally drawn to "boy" toys. DH and I haven't fostered it, but he is naturally inclined to like such toys.

I like this thread, I hope it continues


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chirp* 
i'm wondering how you radical mommas have dealt with obvious differences in gender...that you thought wouldn't come up if you didn't foster it. but did anyway.

My older son is what I (secretly) call naturally sexist. He believes in very rigid gender lines and he came out that way. It's funny, b/c I've had to learn to be less, um, angry when dealing with his views. He's entitled to believe however he wants, but I do encourage him to rethink things. And, I correct any obvious untruths he cares to share with his younger sibs. (It's amazing how imaginative he is.







)

So...I've dealt with boys only liking "boy toys" and girls only liking "girl toys" and it really isn't an issue for me. I truly believe in respecting my children and their rights to choose the paths they need in this life. I believe my job is to guide sometimes, but mostly to inform. I've always had all types of toys in my home and the kids like what they like. I'm not going to stress it unless and until I hear kids saying things like, "You can't play with that! That's for boys!"

Then, my radfem comes out. In a much gentler fashion than it does when grown ups say such things.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
My older son is what I (secretly) call naturally sexist. He believes in very rigid gender lines and he came out that way.

That makes me very curious! Care to share some examples?

My boy is only 11 months, but I am worried for the future for both my children because the country we are in (Eastern Europe) is patriarchal in the worst sense, and while I don't want to steer my kids' political views, I do have an issue with sexism







(and other socially accepted concepts like racism).

Sometimes it is so hard to fight against this, when I know that besides me, this country and its society is all they have ever known, since they have been born here and are growing up here. Sometimes I think about moving







.


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
That makes me very curious! Care to share some examples?

He mostly just says (or used to say, b/c he really has calmed it down a lot) things like, "That's not for girls. It's a car racing game." Nothing over the top, but he'd never, ever wear purple or pink or anything frilly or anything that could be construed as "for girls". I thought about getting him a "real men wear pink" t-shirt once, but it would have been for my self-amusement. He'd never wear it. He loves to wear black and skulls.









My younger son, however, may say things to his sister like, "That's not for girls!" when he wants her to leave him alone to his video games, but he'll wear "girl" shoes in a second. Purple is one of his favored colors and he doesn't care if it's got Dora on it or whatever.

I think my older son has calmed down a lot b/c I correct him and because his sister (who is 16 months younger than him) shares a lot of his same interests. The only time they separate interest-wise is when it comes to the manga. She loves the "girly" manga as well as the stuff he likes. He won't read her "girly" manga at all.

But, I give him credit. He's come a loooong way. Every facet of life used to be divided into boy vs. girl. At least, it seemed that way to me.


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## ursusarctos

I've been feeling really grouchy about the way women's appearance is supposed to define them lately. (And then I find myself attributing it to hormones, as if it's somehow unreasonable to be angry and sad when every public representation of your sex and all of your same-sex friends seem to attribute some sort of moral value to being thin and "flawless" and then everyone denies it and implies that you should lighten up







)

It started when I saw 2012 yesterday. I went there fully expecting a formulaic hollywood movie, and it was fun for what it was. But I was really struck (yet again - I don't watch hollywood movies that often) by the direct correlation of thinness to goodness. The main "good" female character was bone thin. Not slim. Gaunt. And her hair was dyed and her makeup was flawless at all times. She was also the mother of two children, with whose doofus-y yet well meaning, natural hair, normal body, some flaws having (that is, *human*) father she magically falls back in love when he heroically saves the day. She has no outstanding characteristics of her own apart from her sexless yet non-threateningly attractive appearance. Contrast to the morally ambiguous sex symbol of the movie (who dies miserably of course), who is somewhat curvy and blond and made the mistakes of both being the girlfriend of the (fat) bad guy and cheating on him with an attractive (too attractive, not real) but stupid other guy, who also ends up dead of course. She also gets implants at the request of her rich boyfriend and later regrets it because "she liked how she was before" (that's when we know her life is clearly no longer worth living and she will end up dead). The other "good" woman, who is single, highly educated, and black, gets to have a tiny bit more body fat than the white matron, but she has to straighten her hair and have perfect makeup. We also never learn exactly what she is a doctor of.

Although the thinness=goodness thing also appeared in male characters, maybe what really got to me wasn't so much just the thinness but the way the female characters were not *normal* in the same way as the male characters, who were permitted foibles, makeupless faces, natural hair, slight potbellies, all while being considered heroes or sexually attractive. The female characters were just so one-dimensional. And this movie was just one of the multitude of American blockbusters that all have the same phenomenon.

So then I relate it to the phenomenon of my friends (and me in the past) so much relating to myself through my appearance. To the point of feeling bad when looking "bad" to oneself (read: too fat, makeup wrong, bad hair - all things imperceptible to most outsiders). Or the sadness of sites like www.theshapeofamother.com, which was supposed to be empowering but has turned into a horror show of young mothers confessing how much they loathe themselves because their naked bodies no longer live up to a perceived *public* (seen from the outside) standard. So many women do not regard their bodies as private, autonomous, answering only to themselves. Witness the "omg she really shouldn't be wearing that" comments.

I know the feeling. It's the feeling of being outside of yourself. It's the creepy crawly feeling of yourself on your own skin, seeing your bad hair and judging yourself for it. Restricting your movement because you are not comfortable in your own skin. Relating to yourself as an object: it just means that you relate to yourself from a (fictional, culturally constructed) observer's point of view. You aren't *in yourself*. And that point of view is drilled into everyone who has access to consumer culture of any type (so anyone who goes outside), day in, day out. Magazines, movies, interaction with friends, advertisements. The message is that we must be physically "flawless" and to be otherwise is actually morally wrong, and also that *we are being watched*.

Thanks to my lovely parents who kept me away from the crap that is American mass culture as long as they could, I never really understood my friends' very real angst about their "fat" thighs, though I tried to join in the self-hate speech for a while as a way of social bonding. I never truly hated my stomach (which is where all my fat goes) even though in my less secure days I was self conscious about it. I was lucky. How can I keep my future daughters from being sucked into the cult of self-hatred based solely on physical appearance? How can I let her keep her awareness centered *inside* her body, so she can feel comfortable with her physicality, with just *being* in her human body? How did it get this bad? Has it always been this way? Did it start with the invention of mirrors? Is it possible to be angsty about what you look like to others if you don't know what you look like to others?

Anyway, that's my rant for today. It's not like I'm the first person to ever realize the above, but it just really hit me and has been making me want to move to the woods and cut off all contact with the outside world, so I had to vent to some people whose eyes might not glaze over at the first mention of "women's negative body image related to media representations". Thanks for listening.


----------



## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
How can I keep my future daughters from being sucked into the cult of self-hatred based solely on physical appearance? How can I let her keep her awareness centered *inside* her body, so she can feel comfortable with her physicality, with just *being* in her human body? How did it get this bad? Has it always been this way? Did it start with the invention of mirrors? Is it possible to be angsty about what you look like to others if you don't know what you look like to others?


Good questions. The answer to the first probably depends a lot on the character of your (future) daughters and how you build them up as they grow. I tell my daughters they are beautiful all the time. Besides the fact that it's true (hahaha!), I think it's important to hear. I didn't hear it growing up and although I've heard men tell me as an adult, I still doubt it at times. What is beauty, anyway? I don't know and so...sometimes I tell myself I'm beautiful and sometimes I don't think about it at all. (I'm never ugly, tho. ha!)

My older dd couldn't care less what ppl think of her looks. Ppl have stopped us in public to tell me (why me and not her? I haven't a clue...it grates the nerves) how beautiful she is and at most, it annoyed the crap out of her. She doesn't understand why her looks are important to anyone. She just came out that way. (We had a talk about how her looks bring joy into other ppl's lives and that's why they stop us and tell us how beautiful she is. She accepted that, but still remained slightly annoyed about it.)

My younger dd is 5 and already scrutinizes herself in the mirror. She says she's fat (drives me nuts b/c she's not even slightly overweight) and things like that, but she's more into princesses and iCarly.







(Don't blame me. I really, really tried.) So, of course, she's going to notice physical appearance more. Plus, she's all muscle and solid foundation and her older sister is twiggy, so the difference in body types is really striking in her mind. She just came out that way, too. I mean, I'm sure society has played a role in her opinions, but she came out geared toward caring about those things.

I have to spend more time cultivating positive self-talk with regard to my 5yo b/c she cares how she looks compared to others. It's an annoying thing sometimes, but it's our current reality. We deal with it the best we can given our circumstances.

I don't know that any of these issues began with mirrors. I mean, standing water has always been available.







Different people struggle with different issues. I'm sure that patriarchy plays a huge role, tho. Our daughters are all the more reason to address sexism in all forms, IMO. I'm convinced, tho, that there have always been females who cared more than others about how they looked. It seems pretty natural. The problem is when whole segments of the female population are looked down upon because they don't look like one particular model or something.

I've stopped watching TV and movies (for the most part...I'll watch some movies, but I'm very picky) due to the poor messages being sent. Not just about women, either, although I get sooooooo tired of those. So, I feel your pain.


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## Teenytoona

Hi everyone! It's been quiet around these parts lately.

I'm bringing up some older topics because they've been on my mind lately.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ursusarctos* 
Yes. This. I see now how this happened to my mom. When I thought of her as nagging and uptight about chores, she was just trying to get a little help cleaning up a house that we *all* messed up. Since none of us liked cleaning, and my dad wouldn't clean given the choice, we saw my mom as this crazy woman who insisted on us cleaning, like it was her thing or something, and if she just wouldn't be so uptight then everything would be fine. I'm so sad about that now. She must have felt so alone. I also think that my parents' backwards relationship conditioning from the 60s didn't allow them to see that this was the actual situation, so there was just resentment and misunderstanding from all sides.

Uh huh. My own relationship with a not-at-all-old-school man is exactly what has led to me understanding my mother so much better than I did before. Again with women being saddled with the "lifestyle police" role - girls are taught to "see" dirt, boys aren't (this was a big one in my childhood, I remember - because boys are "naturally" dirty and untidy so why teach them to clean and pick up?). So who sees that an apartment is dirty and needs cleaning? The woman. Since the man doesn't see it, she is forced to ask for his help in cleaning if she doesn't want to do it herself, which, when the request is repeated (which it will be because the man continues to be passive about mess), can often become "nagging" or can be interpreted as nagging by the man, who has been trained to think that cleaning is unnecessary and to be avoided unless someone (mother/wife figure) makes you. So when the man continually avoids cleaning the woman gets frustrated and will overreact to things that she would have been more reasonable about had the man just done it himself without her asking. I remember my mother being distraught over having to ask my dad for the gazillionth time to wash dishes or something. I didn't understand her rage at having to ask. Now I do.
Men are overwhelmingly not taught to take care of themselves, let alone others, nor to take responsibility for the upkeep of shared spaces. No wonder married men do so much better psychologically than unmarried men. It's a crying shame, for the girls who have to take on the burden of responsibility for everyone's wellbeing from such a young age, and for the boys who are not taught that caring for themselves and others improves everyone's quality of life and so end up with major handicaps when living alone as adults and later in relationships.


WRT "crazy, nagging" moms and "cool" dads, I feel like this is coming up a fair bit with my family. Both DH and I work, but when it comes to the homefront, I do alot of the "keeping things running" work. Perhaps that's because I'm the one who needs the routine of it all? IDK. But I'm really starting to see myself approaching the "wig out over little things" and "nagging" threshold. I try to watch how I'm presenting things, but then get irritated with myself because I shouldn't have to sugar coat that sort of stuff, KWIM.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~D~* 
I wanted to comment if that's ok. I've been







b/c I really think I have a lot to learn on this for many reasons. But this is what I really wanted to say about the word 'girly'... Chirp, I looked for a definition for this word and this all I came up with:
girl⋅ie
  /ˈgɜrli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gur-lee] Show IPA
-adjective Informal.
1.featuring nude or scantily clad young women: a girlie show; girlie magazines.
-noun
2.Offensive. a term of address used for a girl or woman.
Also, girly.

Origin:
1940-45; girl + -ie
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source
|
Link To girly
girl·ie also girl·y (gûr'lē)
adj. Often Offensive

1.Featuring minimally clothed or naked women, typically in pornography: girlie magazines.
2.Weak, timid, or effeminate. Used of men.

So if something is deemed 'girly' it literally means offensive and weak?







Wow.

Sigh, wouldn't it be nice if something derived from any way to say a female person wasn't an insult? From girly to slang for parts of the female body, to things relating to women? I know I've has a hard time with this myself. I used to do my darnest to not be "feminine" or "girly" but then I realized that's not doing any good either. Though I'm still in a feminine/masculine limbo, I still can't get over the negative connotation of wearing a skirt/liking pink/ looking pretty.


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## doulatara

I am really late to this and have thus far only read the first page, but wanted to pop in and be counted as one of the MDC radical feminists! Hello!

Most of my activism at the moment is centered around my university- I am the president of the school's feminist collective, have put on events such as Take Back the Night, Reproductive Health Film Series recently, currently planning a Vagina Monologues performance, have hosted homebirth and birth options panels, myself and collegues are bringing the Sakia Gunn film project along with the director to my school and I do alot of other awareness/conscoiusness raising there. Am also interning at a Girls Rock organization right now and am taking a trip to Juarez in March to work with immigration and women's issues on the border. Not much time to do anything outside of that, but I try! It is tough because it is easiest to do work where I spend my time, but at times I feel like the work I am doing has very little impact on those around me.

Anyhow, I love to see that there are others around here! I also tend to have socialist leanings as well and am really interested in prison-abolition, immigration issues and of course reproductive health issues.


----------



## Ianthe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doulatara* 
I am really late to this and have thus far only read the first page, but wanted to pop in and be counted as one of the MDC radical feminists! Hello!

Most of my activism at the moment is centered around my university- I am the president of the school's feminist collective, have put on events such as Take Back the Night, Reproductive Health Film Series recently, currently planning a Vagina Monologues performance, have hosted homebirth and birth options panels, myself and collegues are bringing the Sakia Gunn film project along with the director to my school and I do alot of other awareness/conscoiusness raising there. Am also interning at a Girls Rock organization right now and am taking a trip to Juarez in March to work with immigration and women's issues on the border. Not much time to do anything outside of that, but I try! It is tough because it is easiest to do work where I spend my time, but at times I feel like the work I am doing has very little impact on those around me.

Anyhow, I love to see that there are others around here! I also tend to have socialist leanings as well and am really interested in prison-abolition, immigration issues and of course reproductive health issues.

right on! I should check the university I'll be starting this Fall to see if they have anything like that too.


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## feminist~mama

I'm here too- although like many others, somewhat inactive compared to younger days!

I teach childbirth education and really feel that empowering women and helping them understand their birth choices is an important feminist endeavor.

I'm sure that at some point in the future I'll become a bit more politically active- growing this baby and raising my DD into a strong, powerful woman is my main concern right now though!


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## jenneology

I started reading this thread and discovered that I guess I can be considered a radical feminist! I didn't know that... but I find myself in agreement and sympathetic to the conversation here.

I've recently started exploring feminist thought in relation to my personal crusades of reproductive freedom during childbirth (see my sig) and family policy. It led me to apply to a PhD program in Women's Studies and I'm waiting to see if I get in. I hope I'll find out by the end of next month.

Yesterday, I had the special opportunity to attend a MomsRising event at the WA State Capitol. They hosted a dance party with a live children's band in the hallway between the Senate and House chambers. There were probably 50 kids with parents there. I was really happy to be involved in an event like that and I hope that there are more like. In the past when they've had events at the capitol but they've always been earlier than my kids wake up and an hour from home.

Well, I'm here! I'm looking forward to joining the conversations!


----------



## oceane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doulatara* 
I am really late to this and have thus far only read the first page, but wanted to pop in and be counted as one of the MDC radical feminists! Hello!

Most of my activism at the moment is centered around my university- I am the president of the school's feminist collective, have put on events such as Take Back the Night, Reproductive Health Film Series recently, currently planning a Vagina Monologues performance, have hosted homebirth and birth options panels, myself and collegues are bringing the Sakia Gunn film project along with the director to my school and I do alot of other awareness/conscoiusness raising there. Am also interning at a Girls Rock organization right now and am taking a trip to Juarez in March to work with immigration and women's issues on the border. Not much time to do anything outside of that, but I try! It is tough because it is easiest to do work where I spend my time, but at times I feel like the work I am doing has very little impact on those around me.

Anyhow, I love to see that there are others around here! I also tend to have socialist leanings as well and am really interested in prison-abolition, immigration issues and of course reproductive health issues.

that's a huge amount of work you're doing! I am very impressed.


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## sleepingbeauty

Can I join you ladies?

I'm not too much of an activist these days but my ideas are more feminist than many of my friends understand. T^T


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## oceane

welcome sleepingbeauty.


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## jessimonster

I think I'm a radical feminist. I mean, define "radical". I'm definitely a feminist.


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## ursusarctos

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
I try to watch how I'm presenting things, but then get irritated with myself because I shouldn't have to sugar coat that sort of stuff, KWIM.

Yes, IKWYM. I basically try incredibly hard to be civil and reasonable at all times so that when DP reacts to my requests as if I'm "nagging" I can call him on it. That is, I don't try to soften or sweeten my normal, reasonable requests for help but I do make an effort to be pleasant and patient, just as I would like to be approached. If DP then chooses to accuse me of "nagging" I refuse to engage with his childish reaction and tell him calmly that I am not nagging and he knows it and could he get over it and just help me out like my adult partner.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
Sigh, wouldn't it be nice if something derived from any way to say a female person wasn't an insult?

Sigh, yes.


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## Momma Moo Martin

Wow, I'm really late too but I'm joining!


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## geek_the_girl

Me too. I definitely consider myself a radical feminist.


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## Laur318

joining you.


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## greenmamapagan

Has anyone read this blog?
http://apronstringz.wordpress.com/
Awesome


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## jenneology

I need some help. I remember linking to some information on maternal feminism I'm pretty sure from MDC but now I can't find it. Does anyone here remember or know of some info on maternal feminism? I remember seeing a blog post on it and now I can't find it.


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## princesstutu

Sorry, I'm no help jenneology. Maybe someone else will know.

Topic: I don't know if this mentality is prevalent among most/all cultures, but I have regularly heard from black, American men that societal/cultural ills will correct themselves when women get their stuff together, esp. black women. It cheeses me off to hear men blame women for social ills and refuse to acknowledge the parts men and patriarchy play in forming cultural norms. The only thing I hear black men taking any responsibility for is being absent fathers and when I tell them that may be a better thing than they realize, given many of their sexist, etc. ideas, they get upset with me.

Anyone else encounter this mentality? If so, how do/did you deal with it?


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## oceane

Jenneology, there is an old thread that also had a lot of book recs for maternal feminism or at least mothering and feminism. maybe that's of some help?

here


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## Astrea

Bumping this thread--anyone still here? Count me in, 100%.









I'd love to hear about if and how you manage to maintain any kind of activism in your life as a mom. My daughter's a year old and I'm wondering how the heck to do anything other than be her mom. I'd love to volunteer with at-risk moms but I can't seem to figure out a way to do it (I don't have childcare and I'm a SAHM). Also, what have you been reading? I've been feeling out of the loop since finishing my university education and becoming a mom, but I'm easing my way back into brain-exercising stuff with My Mother Wears Combat Boots







and The Future Generation--good stuff, and easy to read, which I have to admit is important for me these days, as much as I wish it wasn't


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## Tahpenes

Another radfem here. I was something of a liberal feminist (albeit not very sympathetic to many parts of the "sex-positive" movement) until I found out my husband was using internet pornography behind my back. When I told my parents my relationship was likely over because I would NOT tolerate sexual objectification of women, they cut me off, saying, essentially, that I was making a huge mistake because "boys will be boys" and if it bothered me I must have "self-esteem" issues. Same with several of my "feminist" friends. I started doing a lot more thinking and re-examining about relationships, male privilege, and how men are taught that they have an inherent right to access and judge women's bodies, women's experiences, and women's spaces. I got so frustrated about how discussions about the sexualization of female bodies, sex work, and heterosexual sex all revolved around discussions of "female agency" - so the choice of the male viewer/consumer, who is often objectifying the woman and not caring whether she's consenting or trafficked or whatnot, isn't even critiqued.

From there it probably took two or three months for me to become pretty radical. I'm not quite a separatist, but part of me certainly aspires to it.

I think in some respects what I was looking at re: pornography and sex work has the same root cause as what you were hearing, princesstutu, with black women being blamed for so many social ills: if it deals with women, it's a "woman's problem", and therefore is the responsibility of women...even if it's men who are causing the problem! It's the same thing with domestic violence and rape - it's not as if women are beating ourselves up or raping ourselves, but somehow they're "women's issues" and only women are addressing them. Men don't even have to _acknowledge_ that the problems exist, let alone fix them.

Astrea, if you haven't read Ariel Levy's _Female Chauvinist Pigs_, you definitely should put that on your list. It came out a few years ago, but it's still very timely.


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## Astrea

Hi Tahpenes! Great points (although it seriously bites you had to go through that with your XH) and I'm totally with you. There have been a couple of assaults on women in forested/nature areas where I live and it pisses me off to no end that the response seems to be "Women: don't walk in the forest or on these trails alone" (subtext being: because if you don't it's your own fault if you're attacked, assaulted, and murdered, you stupid bimbos). WTH? I don't even know where to begin. I ranted for about an hour to my DH about how sexist and ridiculous that is when I heard the most recent story.

I make a point of walking in the forest every single day, now.







That said, I can't bring myself to walk the paths that go the deepest into the woods--even though I know it's completely illogical and that statistically, I'm in far more danger every time I, say, drive my car--and that ticks me off.


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## Tahpenes

It's amazing how much we have to shape our behavior as women to avoid attacks, and often don't even realize we're doing it. But most men don't seem to have a clue!

I heard an anecdote once about a high school teacher who was doing a lesson on gender for a social studies class, and she gave her students a little "quiz". One of the questions was, "You've gone to the mall, and had to park in a far corner of the parking lot. As you leave, what do you do to keep yourself safe?" The girls in the class scribbled for several minutes, and the boys were confused. They were asking things like, "Is this a bad neighborhood?" "Is there a lot of crime here?" "What do you mean 'safe'?"









Good for you, Astrea!


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## jump mama jump!

I touched on this in my senior thesis (sociology - on public gender based harassment) as an undergrad. I'm forgetting how to spell her name, but Hille Koskela? wrote about the phenomenon, calling it the "fear paradox" since women are conditioned to fear attacks in public spaces, when in reality they are more frequently attacked in the private sphere by men they know and often trust, while statistically men are more likely to be victimized in public by strangers. That whole blame the victim mentality about where women "shouldn't" go, when, really pisses me off. It's why I used to carry knives and such when I was much younger. Fortunately never had to use them.

BTW fwiw, I'm not really a fadical feminist, more anarcho feminist, but I'm enjoying this topic.


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## Babyzen

Oh, I wish I was radical. I was once upon a time! I am a lesbian feminist mama. At present, the most 'radical' I can claim myself to be is being a Doula and reading my boys matriarchal bedtime stories-lol-

I have always kind of had low self-esteem/body image because of my thick thighs and ghetto booty so I used to always where baggy clothes and such to hide my shape. I WANTED to look like the little tarts on the magazines. I very recently (sad, seeing as i;m 30 now) accepted that was dumb, this is my body and i'll wear whatever I want, and whatever makes me feel good.

The area I live in is mostly gay men and retirees (Palm Springs, So. Cal) so there really isn't much of a movement here. I try to do what I can myself (installed a 5th wheel tow hitch a couple months ago in the back of my partners truck) and other such 'male dominated' tasks. Other than that, its just me saying i'm a liberal feminist. I don't walk softly, and I do carry a bog gun (figuratively speaking)


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## MittensKittens

Does anyone else get terribly annoyed when people categorize your children according to their biological gender, and then treat them in a certain way? I have a girl and a boy, and this kind of thing is becoming more and more obvious. Granted, I choose to live in an overly patriarchal country. Part of it is my personal mission to prove that women can do whatever they like.

But I am starting to get worried about the kids. High pitched, hysterical voices and "princess", "beauty", and similar words are the way of choice to address my daughter. For my son, it's "little pirate", "hero", and the like. Often he's addressed in this exaggerated, uber "masculine" voice. They're already being told what they can and can't do according to their gender. Ie, my son can't cry when he falls, can't wear pink if he likes, etc. My daughter is constantly told about her looks (yes, she's beautiful, as is my son!







). If I point out some of her other qualities, the usual comment is, "yes, she is a looker!", like that is all that matters.

















How do you folks cope? I want to show my kids it is OK to be authentic.


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## greenmamapagan

Uhuh! My son is 12 months, he started walking at 9 months so yep, he's active and into everything. My daughter also took her first steps at 10 months. Funnily enough I've _never_ complained about my son's toddler antics. They are par for the course second time round. I do remember complaining about my DD at this age. So the "Oh he's a boy!" Comments _really_ irk me. Hello! Did I complain? No. Did I even bring it up? No.
One mother of twin boys had that exact conversation.
Her: "Wow, he's walking. Is he into everything?"
Me (dreading where this is going): "Yes."
Her: "Oh, he's a boy. You'll get used to it."








For goodness sake. You only have boys, how the &**%^$%^#$ would you know? Have you ever met a female toddler?!


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## MittensKittens

That's horrible! My daughter even got told in a store that she could nit buy the blue ball, because she's a girl. She needed the pink one







.

Do you ever say anything about it?


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## Astrea

Hey jump mama jump! I'm a baby anarcha-feminist














Just learning about the world of social anarchism and being floored by how much it fits with our family's values and beliefs (for years my idea of anarchism was selfish punks and the Anarchist Cookbook







) PM me if you ever want to chat!

Ugh, the gendering stuff... it's horrible. Really horrible. I haven't hit it too badly yet but sometimes it bugs me how much of DD's wardrobe is pink. It's all hand-me-downs so that's awesome







and fits with my environmental and ethical value system but it's still very, very pink. And if I dress her in any other color, people think she's a boy. I couldn't care less if they can decode her sex instantly based on her appearance or not, but if folks assume she's a boy and later find out she's a girl they're always so apologetic and embarrassed. I'm just







Who cares? She is who she is and who knows what gender or sub-gender or gender mix she'll choose to ascribe to (or not) when she's grown.


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## Momma Moo Martin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrea* 
sometimes it bugs me how much of DD's wardrobe is pink. It's all hand-me-downs so that's awesome







and fits with my environmental and ethical value system but it's still very, very pink. And if I dress her in any other color, people think she's a boy











This is us exactly! Basically, if my DD isn't dressed head to toe in pink or wearing a dress everyone assumes she is a boy. A week or so ago we were in a store and DD was wearing a normal DD outfit - a monster truck t-shirt, a khaki skort, and her beloved Spiderman hat. One of the employees came up and said "Hello sir" to my DD and kept reiterating it with "How are you today, sir?" blah blah blah. Then, all of a sudden she looks at DD's shoes (which are pink with yellow and green designs) and says "Wait, are you a sir or not?" and when I told her DD was actually a girl the employee seemed frustrated and made a comment about how I was confusing people with the way I was dressing her! Um, no, these are the clothes she likes so she's gonna wear them! Ugh.


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## jump mama jump!

the gendering stuff drives me crazy. We too have tons of pink hand me downs and clothes that were gifts, mostly from family. I tend to buy her more "neutral" stuff, which basically means people think she's a boy when I dress her in it. She's almost 4 months and has very little hair so it's not like people really can tell other than from her clothes. It just weirds me out that it seems to matter to people so much. It's always the first question people ask, "boy or girl?" if she's not wearing "girlie" clothes. I think I'm just going to start asking why it matters, that's what I did as a teenager when people would rudely ask me if I was a boy or girl (I wore baggy clothes, had a shaved head for a while, and mohawks, etc).

A few weeks ago I was taking her for a walk and our next door neighbor was out doing yard work and started talking to us. She was wearing green overalls and a khaki onesie and he asked me if she's a boy or girl. This really bugged me since his wife keeps bringing us stuff for her (they have kids our age - it's a really weird dynamic which is a whole other rant in and of itself), most of it being super girlie. Really, you're wife has bought us two dresses, a pink onesie, a bag of used girl clothes, and a pink winter coat! And I'm using female pronouns to refer to her!!!! And you're asking her gender???!!! I took that as an underhanded comment on how I'm dressing her. My dh thought it was an oversight since he's whacked out on painkillers after having had knee surgery (but still manages to make his lawn an obsessive hobby?!). I still think it was super passive aggressive. Yet another reason I'm really starting to hate them.

And on a related note, what's with people addressing her as "little man"? People refer to baby girls as "little girls" not "little women" so why are baby boys called "little _men_"? I know it's semantic but it bugs me. I'm kind of a "language-nazi" though.


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## hildare

whoo-hoo! happy happy happy to join you mamas (and dadas?).

going to go back and read all the pages, but..

yes, boy is the 'default' when you dress your babe in anything other than pink. orange = boy. red = boy. ANYTHING OTHER THAN PINK = boy.

i derive much amusement from this blog, there are frequently posts with pics of the boy as default..toys, etc.

good to meet'cha, everyone!


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## hildare

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 

Are there any good books written about socialism by women?

And, wait...I just remembered: anarchy isn't misogynist. Altho, that doesn't mean anarchists can't be.









we sometimes jokingly call those "MANarchists." only in jest. (men aren't the only mysogynists, of course)
a booklist for the curious?
Anything by Emma Goldman, including but not limited to Living My Life (volumes 1 & 2) and Red Emma Speaks (an edited collection of her work)
speeches, etc by Voltairine DeCleyre (Voltairine DeCleyre reader is one, there are others free online)


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## Aubergine68

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
we sometimes jokingly call those "MANarchists." only in jest. (men aren't the only mysogynists, of course)
a booklist for the curious?
Anything by Emma Goldman, including but not limited to Living My Life (volumes 1 & 2) and Red Emma Speaks (an edited collection of her work)
speeches, etc by Voltairine DeCleyre (Voltairine DeCleyre reader is one, there are others free online)


Have you read Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed? Anything by Doris Lessing? I like her autobiographies.


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## hildare

Aubergine68, we LOVE LeGuin! Haven't thought about Lessing in years, I need to revisit her, it seems


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## St. Margaret

I lurk this thread but YEAH to the comments about clothing and colors for babies. I dressed DD in cute shirts we picked before she was born, with things on them that were special to us, and there was some blue on them. SO many people thought she was a boy, even when we told them she was a girl. I guess the cultural statement of gender colors was stronger than my actually telling them. Just recently some retired volunteer sherrifs offered DD a junior deputy sticker-- and then one had to ruin it by asking me if she had a brother, like, she wouldn't like it or couldn't have it, but we could pass it to her brother. I didn't even bother saying anything to them.

I love LeGuin's short stories especially. "She Unnames Them" is my favorite fem lit of all time perhaps.


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## jump mama jump!

hildare I just have to thank you for posting the socimages blog. I hadn't seen that before and totally dig it.


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## Astrea

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
yes, boy is the 'default' when you dress your babe in anything other than pink. orange = boy. red = boy. ANYTHING OTHER THAN PINK = boy.

SO TRUE







It's late so I don't have anything more articulate to say than that I despise this, so very much.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
we sometimes jokingly call those "MANarchists." only in jest. (men aren't the only mysogynists, of course)
a booklist for the curious?
Anything by Emma Goldman, including but not limited to Living My Life (volumes 1 & 2) and Red Emma Speaks (an edited collection of her work)
speeches, etc by Voltairine DeCleyre (Voltairine DeCleyre reader is one, there are others free online)

MANarchists







Love it.

I had Living My Life out from the library recently but never got around to reading it. Hope to do so soon. How "heavy" is it? Mama brain fog is a sad reality around here.


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## hildare

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrea* 
I had Living My Life out from the library recently but never got around to reading it. Hope to do so soon. How "heavy" is it? Mama brain fog is a sad reality around here.

I thought it was pretty interesting, but I like autobiographies in general for the little glimpses of history they provide. She's a pretty inspiring orator/writer, and I enjoyed it.. she can get a little preachy, and I don't always agree with her views on marriage/relationships but again, that's from a different time, when marriage was sometimes oppressive for women. I hope you enjoy it, it's not a heavy or depressing work at all.. but it's no outlander either


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## princesstutu

Thanks for the book rec's, hildare. I have a bit more free time, now, so I'll be reading more.

About gender: I will be honest and say that I never really understood gender talk. As far back as I can remember, I've always felt female and I remember being 9 years old and very excited about getting boobs. Oh, how boobs made me happy! So, I never understood people who say they felt they were in the wrong body, etc. I was always like, "You were born with that body for a reason. Get over it." in my head.

Recently, staring at my sleeping 5 month old baby, I realized that gender is not real. She could have easily been a boy (I wouldn't have been surprised if she was a boy b/c I felt boy energy when she was inside me, but maybe I just felt STRENGTH and misinterpreted it as boy b/c that's what we're socialized to do). People call her a boy all the time...even when she has pink on. And, I know this is what people do b/c they did it with my older kids. My oldest (a boy) was always a girl, even if he work navy blue sweats with football appliques on them. My next was always a boy, even when she had on pink frills. For a long time, I chopped this up to "people are stoopid".

But, now...I don't know. I totally see how gender is this made up thing and maybe it's good that people call boys girls and vice versa b/c maybe that means we're ripe to put down the patriarchal gender roles we've been handing out like candy for generations.

Living in the bay area, I see a lot of transgender folks and lesbians who dress like gay, artistic boys (if there's a better way to express that, please let me know) and I really understand the fluidity of gender, now.

As such, patriarchy ticks me off all the more.









For about a year now I've been taking part in protest movements (none around feminist stuff specifically, except getting down with some protestin' mamas in SF) and I find myself becoming more and more radical, more and more anarchist. (The socialists and communists can't understand this, for some reason.)

Anyway...just sharing.


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## oceane

I'm still here. We are still trying to conceive, but listening to my husband's colleagues and also other people I get really frustrated already about gendering and assumptions. Just last weekend I had to listen to MIL about how men are inherently incapable of caring for a newborn/baby on their own, besides the occasional diaper change of course. Somehow my "that's sexist" didn't register at all. About clothes and colors: I even think twice about buying this blue onesie for our friends because they might not want to dress a girl (should they have one) in blue, even though it's a star trek onesie and the color has a significance. It irritates me that I even consider choosing a different color.


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## FarrenSquare

I'm fairly new to MDC but delighted to see an active community of feminists here. I get really irked by the clothing options for little ones. I'm due in November and chose not to find out the baby's sex just so that we wouldn't start receiving those lovely pink outfits with "PRINCESS" across the chest or the blue outfits covered with footballs and hockey sticks... But unfortunately I think those outfits will be unavoidable once LO arrives.







If only there was a way to politely tell family that I'm not interested in that style of clothing!

I'm new to pregnancy and motherhood, but it has always really bothered me that people use the words gender and sex interchangably. Now that I'm pregnant people are constantly asking me - "Do you know the gender?" I find it really difficult not to say something snarky like - No, actually, and we probably won't have even a clue until LO goes through puberty.

Am I the only one who is bothered by this? Should I just let it go?


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FarrenSquare* 
Am I the only one who is bothered by this? Should I just let it go?

Hi and Welcome!

I used to get annoyed by the "is it a boy or girl" question sometimes. Especially when my answer led to a discussion about how my belly shape didn't go with that information.









I've found it's best to just let it go. Educate when you feel it's appropriate, if you want, but this type of issue can become bigger than it needs to be if we let it. People are people, after all. We can't save the world! (That's what they say, anyway.







) The way I came to look at it is like this: people just want to be connected to others and they will find the most ridiculous ways to do it, sometimes. It's natural for people to want to bond with a pregnant woman because she is introducing the next member of the group. Unfortunately, we live in a dysfunctional society and many (most?) of us say and do things that represent that fact.

Plus, people really are curious about life and pregnant women are mystery on two legs. It's such a magical time, I think most people can't resist trying to become a part of it. Even in the lamest ways.







I like to think of it as the world showing me a bit of love and attention.









But, then, I tend to be a sappy sort of feminist most of the time.


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## FarrenSquare

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceane* 
Somehow my "that's sexist" didn't register at all.

I have found that "Sexist" as a term is fully and completely ignored these days







I was out with a friend and remarking about a mutual friend who has been sliding down a slippery slope lately (taking too many drugs and becoming very selfish) and has been saying very "Sexist" things - and she remarked that "sexist" is outdated and that nobody even considers it anymore. She said people are people and boys are boys which had me fuming!







but I bit my tongue and changed the subject. She's not the type to be receptive to that kind of conversation









I've started to use the term "genderize" instead, and find it gets more attention because people don't immediately understand it and I can then clarify what I mean.

Thanks for the welcome, princesstutu, I can be a pretty sappy feminist too - and I really like the way you said that pregnant women are a mystery on two legs. That put an interesting spin on my perspective.







I'm slowly back-reading this thread while I'm supposed to be at work and I am seriously impressed with the amount of smart women and opinions found within! I'm particularly curious about your anarcho-feminist perspective, I've had a few friends/roommates who have held that perspective before, as well!


----------



## St. Margaret

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FarrenSquare* 
I'm fairly new to MDC but delighted to see an active community of feminists here. I get really irked by the clothing options for little ones. I'm due in November and chose not to find out the baby's sex just so that we wouldn't start receiving those lovely pink outfits with "PRINCESS" across the chest or the blue outfits covered with footballs and hockey sticks... But unfortunately I think those outfits will be unavoidable once LO arrives.







If only there was a way to politely tell family that I'm not interested in that style of clothing!

I'm new to pregnancy and motherhood, but it has always really bothered me that people use the words gender and sex interchangably. Now that I'm pregnant people are constantly asking me - "Do you know the gender?" I find it really difficult not to say something snarky like - No, actually, and we probably won't have even a clue until LO goes through puberty.

Am I the only one who is bothered by this? Should I just let it go?

These two things bother DH even more than me! Princess was a banned word in our house until DD discovered it on her own, from talking to other adults mostly, after 3yo, and even then it's very limited, we encourage empowered princess images, not passive, etc. But we just had to shop around a bit to avoid it on clothes, and people were good about getting girly but not princess stuff-- and the couple things we got, we donated or exchanged easily. Now we're faced with the challenge of having a boy and avoiding overly stereotypical boy stuff. We have a lot of good GN clothes from DD, so that's nice... but we DID get gifted a lot of pink or lacy stuff, and while we're using some of the less over the top girly stuff, especially for PJs, DH and I talked about not wanting people always assuming DS is a girl and having to talk about it every time we go out... but we both hate that it's such a thing in the first place--- clothes are clothes! And finding things that aren't just SPORTS! TRUCKS! I'M TOUGH! is hard, too.

The gender/sex thing we just correct like for a toddler-- we restate it using the correct term. "Did you find out the gender?" "Yes, we did find out the sex!"


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FarrenSquare* 
I'm particularly curious about your anarcho-feminist perspective, I've had a few friends/roommates who have held that perspective before, as well!

I'm big on autonomy and creating a life/world where we are truly free. I started along this path as a socialist and I still believe socialists and anarchists need to work together to co-create a more just, free world (esp. as capitalists go wonkier and wonkier), but I think anarchy is the logical result of socialism. I get into debates about this with communists and socialists, but really...I think that communism and socialism models simply aim to create a different group-power dynamic which will result in the same, basic problems we have now, when it comes to how people are encouraged to interact. Communism claims to want to do away with a class structure, but that's not possible with communism b/c the very foundation of communism is a class structure. I think the only real way to get rid of class and oppressive systems like it is to aim for true autonomy. There are so many things we need to work on, true, to make that happen, but so what? We've got time.









One thing that drives me crazy in many discussions is how people want to overthrow current oppressors using the same mentality of those oppressors. If you think the same as the folks you're overthrowing, you will create the same problems. I think that feminism and anarchy go hand-in-hand because they both address issues of self-power and self-governance. _I_ define me--that's my feminism and my anarchy.

The older I get and the more politically involved I become in my community (and right now, I'm pretty involved), the more of an anarchist I become. If that's possible.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *St. Margaret* 
The gender/sex thing we just correct like for a toddler-- we restate it using the correct term. "Did you find out the gender?" "Yes, we did find out the sex!"

I'd like to add that y'all are hanging around some academics or something, eh? My folks just keep to "boy" and "girl". We don't have to have gender vs sex clarifications.


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## nolonger

FarrenSquare, you're definitely not the only one; I hate those clothes so much that I wound up teaching myself to sew so that ds wouldn't have to wear them. Babies really aren't that hard to sew for and they don't care if you make mistakes. ds pretty much wore only infant gowns as an infant and now he wears elastic waist pants and simple knit shirts. We have a washer and dryer, so it's not that big a deal to have quality rather than quantity.

You could also take a peek on Etsy if you're not the crafty type. There are a lot more options there than the mass marketed corporate sweatshop made products scene.

If your family refuses to listen, there is NOTHING wrong with taking the Princess/Prince crap to the consignment store to get a few $$$ for fabric you love.

I get asked if ds is a boy or a girl a lot. He's 2 1/2 and fairly androgynous. If they assume he's a girl, I try to continue the conversation as long as possible without "correcting" them or using a pronoun, but if it goes on long enough that i can't mumble over the "Yes, he sure does have very beautiful eyes and I wish I'd cornrowed his hair myself, but I'm not that good at it yet so it was worth the money to have it done at the shop on the plaza." without them noticing their mistake, I wind up feeling too sorry for their embarrassment to say anything snarky.

If there's no conversation or buildup to the question, "Is that a boy or a girl?", though, I have no problems whatsoever with replying "Yes."


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## princesstutu

noordinaryspider, I had noticed that lately I have no desire to correct ppl when they make a pronoun mistake, but I'd been pondering the "niceness" of that. I mean, I really don't care if ppl refer to dd as her or him, but I'm not trying to seem like an ass, either, by allowing someone to be "wrong" and then get embarrassed.

What do ppl think about that issue? Is it disrespectful not to correct ppl? A part of me doesn't care but a part of me isn't trying to seem callous or anything, either.

Sewing is also great b/c we don't buy as much into the capitalist consumer horror show. Knitting, too. I've been thinking about how to buy fabric and yarn that's not resulted from oppression in any way (maybe not 100 doable, but I'm gonna try). Anyone have any links to companies that are fair-trade, cooperatives, etc.?


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## MovnMama

Hi! Sorry I wasn't able to read through all the posts as thoroughly as I would like, but this thread is definitely up my alley! I don't really label myself, because I kind of find it counter-productive (i.e. I spend more time trying to figure out the right "name" for how I feel, rather then just spending energy on a more equal and beautiful world), but most of these ideas jive with me.

I wanted to throw out a few more resources that I have found. One is not as "radical" but it's easy to get involved in the email NGO activism: www.momsrising.org. They also have a book, _The Motherhood Manifesto_, that details what their positions are, on like, family leave and paternity leave and affordable childcare, etc. Lots of good research foundations, good stats to know for debates with others, etc.

The second book is a *great* read, super easy and fun and not heavy, called _My Mother Wears Combat Boots_ by Jessica Mills. She's a punk rock anarchist who has two daughters and has raised them as non-gender, anarchist as possible (I mean, they were like 2 and 5 when she wrote the book, but hey...) Mills did all these interesting gender experiments where she would dress her daughter a certain way and see how people referred to her baby, etc. Very fun and informative read. http://punkmusic.about.com/od/punkin...thercombat.htm or http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Wears-C.../dp/1904859720

I'll keep a watch on this thread... glad to see you all!


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## princesstutu

Thanks, K! And, welcome. I've heard of moms rising. Thanks for the link cuz I keep forgetting to check them out.


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## hildare

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
The older I get and the more politically involved I become in my community (and right now, I'm pretty involved), the more of an anarchist I become. If that's possible.









VERY possible


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## habitat




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## princesstutu

I don't personally know of anyone raising an androgynous child. I say go for what you want as long as you remain respectful of what the kid wants, too, and are confortable with yourself so that you don't get seriously angry at folks all the time. I think raising kids in a constant stream of anger is damaging to their sense of well-being. Totally unhealthy for everyone involved.

Good luck! Have fun! I think if more people focused on having fun, we'd see a lot less violence in the world.


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## Mama Soltera

Hello. I don't know what qualifies as a radical feminist. I'm just looking for the feminist mothers thread. I don't think I'm radical, but then a lot of people seem to think being a feminist is radical in general, right? lol

So, I am all about women and equality, though I support *all* people, which absolutely includes everyone on the gender and sexuality spectrum. But I am not a person who believes that everyone is really exactly physically and hormonally the same and that 99% of everything is culture. So, please do tell me if I belong on this thread or not (and I won't be offended if not!) because I would like to find a thread where I can discuss feminist issues with like-minded women.

Thanks!


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## princesstutu

Welcome!

Please share your thoughts and feelings. Feel free! I don't believe I'm here to condemn anyone's definition of feminism. Are you radical? You tell me!









It's also my experience that many people view being a feminist at all as 'radical'. It catches me off-guard sometimes. But, it depends largely on where in the world I am. Now that I live in CA, I've met plenty of male feminists, so feminism is more understood and discussed, even though among women of color (especially black women, I've noticed, since I am what's considered 'black') being a feminist is still viewed as weird. I think, though, that because I am obviously less angry than the black women who view feminism as worthless, I give people pause about the label. In many black cultures, black feminists are caricuturized as simply angry women. Sometimes, they're also ugly. The fact that I am neither causes people to listen a little longer when the subject comes up, although it is still put down at some point because of uncomfortable feelings on one side of the conversation.

I don't believe culture is 99% of things and everyone is the same. Historically, a radical feminist has been one who tends to 'blame' the problems females endure upon the fact that patriarchy exists and shapes our societies and relationships. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that is my understanding.) I have moved away from the blame game, however I still believe that patriarchy presents challenges that we can meet and overcome.

peace & love


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## Mama Soltera

Well, I do think that need for feminist awareness came into being because of patriarchy and the idea of the "other" (as in not male, not white, not straight, etc.). So, maybe I am radical afterall! lol Thanks for the welcome.


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## princesstutu

This video brought this tribe to mind:


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## catieface

Hi ladies,

I'm currently pregnant with my second and back on here for the firsttime in about four years! I am currently a women's studies major and consider myself a radical feminist. Motherhood actually brought me to feminism about five years ago as I was (and still am!) a HUGE lactivist; through breastfeeding activism, I found feminism. I was a single mother for 3.5 years, and am not with a wonderful man, who is also a feminist, and we are VERY excited aboutthe birth of our child. I love to talk the topic of gender identitiy, feminism, and how to raise our children to truly know what equality means and can't wait to talk with all of you!


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## Mama Soltera

First of all, what the hell happened while I was gone? I can hardly make anything out here. Yuck. Anyway, I just needed to vent a little. Is any one else fed up with men who want to take about how anti-male our society is now and about all the double standards, blah, blah, blah. It reminds me of white people talking about how hard it is to deal with racism against whites and how our society is anti-white. What a joke. This just really gets under my skin. Hopefully this message is working. I honestly feel like I'm finding things and writing with a blindfold on with the way this website is now.


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## Mama Soltera

I've been trying to edit my post for five minutes. Hating the new website. Anyway, I meant to write "talk," not take. Sorry.


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## Smithie

"I've had some otherwise very politically radical people tell me that this choice will put my child in a bad place, socially. I disagree. Raising an androgynous child seems like raw honesty to me."

I think that neither you, nor your acquaintances, are in a position to know how this parenting choice will effect your child socially. What's very likely to happen is that your child will consistently perform the gender typically associated with hir genitals from a very early age, and by the time they are 4 or so, you and the rest of the world will be totally clear on what pronouns they prefer. IMHO, it won't do any harm to let your child take the lead on that rather than drilling it into hir infant brain, but I hope that you are not disappointed by how quickly ze develops an entrenched gender performance. Most people do.


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## FarrenSquare

Hey Mamas! I haven't been back since I had my baby! We had a boy, we call him by the male pronouns but we are open to letting him take the lead on his gender, as much as we can expose him to the idea that it is his choice. Even the crunchiest most feminist moms have little boys who love trucks and little girls who love fairies. C'est la vie, it doesn't mean much at this stage - as long as we aren't stifling their choices, am I wrong to feel this way?

Catieface - That is cool you found feminism through lactivism and being a mom! I was soo worried about how being a mom would alter my views on feminism. It's true there have been changes, birth and breastfeeding are such powerful experiences, definitely taught me to love my body for potential over looks and image.

Mama Soltera - I have noticed a lot of men recently ringing this "ITS TOUGH TO BE A WHITE MAN" bell lately and it pisses me off so bad! They have no effing clue that their views are so skewed by their privilege. It can be so frustrating.

I'd love it if this thread were active again! I'll try to keep up this time


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## Mama Soltera

Thank you for your response, Farrensquare. When this comes up I find I usually don't even say anything because they're so far gone, how could I reach them? I know I shouldn't think like that but it is just so frustrating.

Congrats on your baby!


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## princesstutu

Okay, so for the sake of conversation, I'd like to respectfully add thoughts and questions to this topic.

Why are so many people stressing gender when it comes to their babies/children?

I understand educating children on the fluidity and even nonsense of "traditional" gender roles. I understand how gender role assumptions can/have lead to sexism, classism, etc. But, I do not understand the desire to stress raising an androgynous child.

For me, I don't care if my boys wore purple and pink and dressed in tutus, etc. I don't care if my daughters played with trucks, etc. To me, that stuff is just about being human...everything is for everybody. I educate my kids on my views and the views of others, if they ask, seem uncomfortable, etc.

So, while I understand how gender leads into a lot of social ills, I don't understand why that is translating into "let's be gender-free". It seems to me that does not address any of the roots of the social ills, just one of the symptoms.

Besides...I have no problem being female. As a matter of fact, I love it! And, I would not want to deny my child the opportunity to love him/herself fully. Androgyny does not guarantee anything. What is the intent of stressing gender to that point?

It seems reactionary to me, and as an organizer, I see how unsustainable reactionary stances are.

So, those are some of my thoughts. Hopefully, I can gain more understanding around this concept.


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## hildare

i'll try to frame a response for you...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *princesstutu*
> 
> Okay, so for the sake of conversation, I'd like to respectfully add thoughts and questions to this topic.
> 
> Why are so many people stressing gender when it comes to their babies/children?
> 
> we are attempting to raise our child in a neutral way. to me, it seems to be unstressing rather than stressing gender. to stress would equal placing emphasis upon. to raise a child in a neutral environment, would ideally remove the stress.
> 
> I understand educating children on the fluidity and even nonsense of "traditional" gender roles. I understand how gender role assumptions can/have lead to sexism, classism, etc. But, I do not understand the desire to stress raising an androgynous child.
> 
> For me, I don't care if my boys wore purple and pink and dressed in tutus, etc. I don't care if my daughters played with trucks, etc. To me, that stuff is just about being human...everything is for everybody. I educate my kids on my views and the views of others, if they ask, seem uncomfortable, etc.
> 
> i absolutely believe that everything is for everybody, too. however, in our society, it doesn't work that way. people perceived as girls are assigned the color pink. if you want to disagree with that, take a look at the toys in the store. pink is for girls, while the other stuff is for everybody else. it seems also that there is an emphasis upon what traits are described as 'masculine' are of greater importance, or are more acceptable, or are the default. just consider the difference in a parent who's proud of a tomboy little girl vs. the reaction over 'toemageddon"
> 
> assigning a gender to colors and attaching that to a prescribed set of behaviors is extremely limiting. i want my child to choose which traits or skills to learn and how to behave in a way that is distinct and separate from what is narrowly approved for a young female in our society to perform.
> 
> So, while I understand how gender leads into a lot of social ills, I don't understand why that is translating into "let's be gender-free". It seems to me that does not address any of the roots of the social ills, just one of the symptoms. maybe. however i think that buying into or participating in the genderization and stereotyping perpetuates the problem. i think here, it's important to be active and vocal about WHY your child is not wearing pink or WHY it's not ok to assume that a child with long hair is a girl, etc.
> 
> Besides...I have no problem being female. As a matter of fact, I love it! And, I would not want to deny my child the opportunity to love him/herself fully. Androgyny does not guarantee anything. What is the intent of stressing gender to that point?
> 
> i think you're confused about the difference in androgyny and raising a young child in a neutral environment. i think most parents have the goal of raising a child who loves one's self. the difference is, by avoiding purchasing things or having a television to broadcast to my child that he or she must like x, y, or z because of the genetalia he or she was born with, hopefully my child can choose to like x, y, or z because it's interesting or because he or she has made an authentic choice rather than an influenced one.
> 
> It seems reactionary to me, and as an organizer, I see how unsustainable reactionary stances are.
> 
> not sure how to answer this. what's the opposite of reaction?


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## princesstutu

Thanks for the reply.

To start with your last question: I'm not interested in the opposite of reaction, so I'm not sure what you're asking. ? I am interested in responding vs reacting.

And, I thought androgyny was mentioned in a previous post. Sorry if it wasn't. I didn't re-read through all the previous posts on this subject before posting. And, IRL (versus online discussions), I do see a desire for androgyny. And, a desire to raise queer youth to the point of clipping these two topics (gender-neutrality/androgyny and queer) together. Everyone wants a gay kid! (Please excuse my exaggeration.)

I think the messaging we send when we stress these things (and I do see it as stressing the points, although perhaps that is not the specific case of the people posting on the topic in this particular thread) is the same messaging sent by "other side": you are not inherently good enough and need to look a certain way in order to be accepted.

In the end, the message this seems to send (granted, I have anecdotal "evidence" that may or may not apply to individuals posting here) is that clothes still define us. Rather than being just something to cover our bodies since public nudity is illegal.


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## Mama Soltera

Really interseting conversation. Princesstutu, I definitely understand what you are saying. I also tried to just leave things open and encourage personal interest over gender specific expectations (I really can't stand when people say "Oh he loves cars because he's a boy!"). But I never had a goal of an androgenous child either. Society does end up influencing the child no matter what you do, but we have a lot of conversations about it all (my kids are a old enough for that, but we always have had age-appropriate conversations about sexism, racism, etc.).


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## princesstutu

Oh, yeah. I have conversations about sexism, etc with my kids, too. I guess I'm more interested in helping my child have and maintain an open mind than forcing my child into a mold that may or may not fit. While gender neutrality, as it pertains to raising children and how we dress them, seems like a better option, I think that when we enforce it as a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to, it begins to take on the same qualities of sexism that we're attempting to avoid.

At least that's how it seems to me.


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## FarrenSquare

Like I said above: As long as we aren't stifling their choices.

My issue is not raising a gender neutral child - I could care less what gender he will identify with and I will love him all the same - it is the fact that gender is attached to inanimate objects and colour, thus my son's choices are limited by society. Toys like play kitchens and easy bake ovens that come only in pink and purple, have little girls all over the front, and are marketed only to little girls. While toys like a play garage and toolset are in blue and red and marketed to little boys. Or even worse, violent games featuring a struggle for power only marketed to little boys - what message is that sending them? Boys fix things and hurt each other to be powerful. Girls bake things and clean the kitchen. THIS is what I want to avoid!

I want to present to my son a world of choices that are gender free - so that whatever he is he can be happy doing the things he loves to do.


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## sunflwrmoonbeam

Hey, a thread of feminists on MDC! How is this the first I've heard about it?

Hi! I'm Ashley, and I was actually raised to be a feminist, well, sorta. My mom is very classic 2nd wave feminism, pro-choice, single parent, defined by her career, though she did put a big emphasis on things like being attractive and learning to use feminine wiles to get ahead (not that that aspect is feminist, which is why I said "sorta"). Consequently, I've always identified as feminist, and as I get older I'm becoming more and more radical. As a mom, and a crunchy one at that, it feels very lonely. The people who live like I do are typically quite anti-feminist, and those who share my political beliefs typically aren't living a similar lifestyle.

SUBMIT

So, yay crunchy feminist moms!


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## jesrox

My son is now four- and I've always tried to be open about his interests. He got a kitchen set for his 3rd Christmas( In brownish tones) has had dolls and has two stuffed dino's that he says are his "babies". He has always been friends with boys and girls- but his preschool has always been "girl heavy" and he has said for awhile his favorite colors are purple and pink. Now he says other colors because of what others have said. He has started to turn back to purple and pink again. He loves the princess and the frog and had toy Tiana's that he would carry around (little ones) and some of his friend girls at church said something about "princessess being for girls" and I could tell his feelings were hurt. I talked about how boys and girls can like princesses ( mind you this is a ONA, UCC church so very progressive). He says he likes Tiana because she is so beautiful. He is very "lovestruck" when it comes to princessess and certain girls that he has "crushes" on. So my longwinded ramble leads to- I have really tried to raise my child to like things regardless of gender and it gets so hard as they get older. I swear around four the "gender switch" starts in preschools and peer situations where they are very fixated on defining what a boy vs. a girl is ( for example, I like coffee, my partner doesn't and robbie has said only girls drink coffee) My friend who has a 7 year old daughter who loves both princesses and superheroes has been teased at school for wearing wolverine crocs because "those are for boys". I used to always think it was "easier" for little girls who like more "boyish" things than the reverse but it can be hard either way.
You have to be prepared for what others might say to your son (or daugher) and think of ways that you can build them up if others put them down. Even if you are friends with other likeminded folk, young children can be very unyielding in certain gender roles developmentally ( in my short experience as a parent, ha ha).

I am wholeheartedly a feminist but will admit I do not know a lot about the different therories. My mother raised me to feel that I could do anything that a boy could do. I remember being 5 or 6 and touring the hospital...they passed out doctor hats to all the boys and nurse hats to all the girls. My mother demanded doctor hats for all the girls and gave them out  I am a healthcare social worker now and have actually found that the hospital setting is very open to female leaders. Our hospital's CEO is a woman who started as a bedside nurse many years ago. However, I have personally felt how hard it can be to be a working mom and also try to advance in your career. When my son was under two it was all I could do to go to work and get home- especially with breastfeeding and pumping multiple times a day. Now that I am a supervisor I feel that having a small baby right now would be so stressful- I am very happy with my little guy and am even thinking I might like having an only child ( I was also an only child!)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *FarrenSquare*
> 
> Like I said above: As long as we aren't stifling their choices.
> 
> My issue is not raising a gender neutral child - I could care less what gender he will identify with and I will love him all the same - it is the fact that gender is attached to inanimate objects and colour, thus my son's choices are limited by society. Toys like play kitchens and easy bake ovens that come only in pink and purple, have little girls all over the front, and are marketed only to little girls. While toys like a play garage and toolset are in blue and red and marketed to little boys. Or even worse, violent games featuring a struggle for power only marketed to little boys - what message is that sending them? Boys fix things and hurt each other to be powerful. Girls bake things and clean the kitchen. THIS is what I want to avoid!
> 
> I want to present to my son a world of choices that are gender free - so that whatever he is he can be happy doing the things he loves to do.


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## princesstutu

Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts, Jesrox. I agree that lots of kids naturally try to ascertain what females do vs. males. It takes a lot of dedication, education, and empowerment to have our kids understand that the way they look does not have to be limiting. I think it's a pretty natural part of life to go through all that, though. So much of this life/the physical world is about figuring out what the limits and boundaries are. To me, that's what gender talk with people is. "What are my limits and boundaries?" That's pretty much what life is about, in general. The great thing about being people is that most of our boundaries are self-imposed and all of our social boundaries are self-imposed, so there is a lot of flexibility there.


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## princesstutu

And, hi, Ashley! Welcome to the thread!


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## Mama Soltera

I am having a hard time right now with people thinking that living for my kids alone should be enough. I try to explain to people that I am really very unhappy alone with no life except working at a job I hate and taking care of my kids. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and a lot of people tell me what an amazing mother I am. But when I tell people I have nothing else but my kids, they don't see the problem and I can tell they think I'm selfish. I don't really know what I'm asking here. I guess I'm just feeling frustrated. Should that really be "enough" for me? Living a whole life where all you ever had and the only thing you ever lived for was your kids? I want them, but I want my own life too. I want to be fulfilled and happy. I am not a robot, you know? I have feelings and needs and all of that. My kids are older school age kids, if that makes any difference. Help. :/


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## accountclosed15

Mama, don't get yourself down. It's alright to want something more for yourself. I am a career chaser. I love to work...it gives me and my son the freedom we desire, if that makes sense. I wouldn't be able to stay home everyday, just not my style. I have a lot of fun with my son and I don't regret one single day. You have to find what works for you. People call me selfish for working, that my kid is getting ripped off. I say those who judge don't know you and are not holding you in your best interest.


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## Mama Soltera

Thanks for your reply. I am already working outside the home. Hating my job is the issue there. My problem is that when I tell people I have nothing to live for they say I have my children. Is that really enough? To live entirely for other people? And my children cause me all kinds of stress and grief. I love them but it's not easy. People act like living for your kids should be enough (nothing to do with WOH or SAH). Am I making sense? I'm sorry if it's not clear. I am always distracted and usually have little time to post so I realize my posts aren't very well composed. :/


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I am already working outside the home. Hating my job is the issue there. My problem is that when I tell people I have nothing to live for they say I have my children. Is that really enough? To live entirely for other people? And my children cause me all kinds of stress and grief. I love them but it's not easy. People act like living for your kids should be enough (nothing to do with WOH or SAH). Am I making sense? I'm sorry if it's not clear. I am always distracted and usually have little time to post so I realize my posts aren't very well composed. :/


Making sense? Yes! I love my kids, and they are my world. I decided to change my career to be able to homeschool them, and it is wonderful. We are all truly happy with the situation. Still, I am itching to get involved in politics again, and do something wider than just my family. This has nothing to do with loving your kids or not, just with wanting intellectual stimulation and wider involvement with society. For some people, living for their families is quite enough, and for others an exciting job fulfills their life. I want more, but that doesn't mean I don't love my kids or am willing to do my very best in parenting them.


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## Mama Soltera

Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate it, both of you. I absolutely do need more intellectual stimulation. My current job is not giving that to me and, despite the fact that I graduated at the top of my class, I cannot seem to get another job. I just get rejection after rejection. I think part of that is that my experience is in fields unrelated to my degree (I'm trying to change my career path).

Also, as a solo mother, I really need a romantic adult relationship/partnership. But I am having no luck there. I really hate the double standard where a man with children has little to no problems dating but women with more than one child, well, it's very hard. And there are not a lot of feminist men out there that I have seen.

Anyway, sorry to vent. I am just feeling very stuck in my life and it doesn't help when people have the attitude that, "Well, you're a mom (and a full-time single mom at that) so you just have to work and support your kids and if you have no satisfaction or happiness or down-time in life, oh well, the kids are worth it. End of story." I just cannot survive like that. I truly cannot.


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## Mama Soltera

Does anyone else have long-haired boys?

My eight-year-old son was recently called a "nugget girl" for having long hair. WTH?

I am really surprised how much people, even alternative, natural, feminist types, grasp on to that whole tradition of boys having short hair. That is a very recent style when you think about it. Boys and men throughout history have had always had long hair. I guess it's just a reflection of where we're at socially. It's still a threat to look or act in ways that are deemed "feminine." Sometimes I feel like we are taking so long to come out of the dark ages as far as gender equality goes. It's frustrating.


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## sunflwrmoonbeam

My husband's hair goes down to the middle of his back (mine touches my butt ) and I suspect any future son of ours will have long hair for some period of time. We just happen to like long hair


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## princesstutu

I love long hair on males! Little boys with long hair is just the cutest thing in the world to me! I generally keep my hair pretty short these days. I'm growing it out, but short hair on mothers makes perfect sense to me. LOL

But what is a nugget girl? What does that mean?

The long hair thing must really depend on where you live. Around here, it's totally normal for males of all ages to have long hair. Other places...not so much. I remember when I shaved my head a few years ago. I guy I was sleeping with basically stopped talking to me, he was so upset. He said, "I liked your hair!" I replied, "It's hair. It'll grow back."

People are just weird with hair. Sorry your son is going through crap because of it. They're probably just jealous. 

As far as the topic of the kids being "enough": HECK NO they're not necessarily enough. I think people say that because they have been brainwashed and/or have some childhood pain with regard to their mothers. The mentality of having children somehow fulfilling you on every level (and now you can die in peace since you have grown a human and expunged it through your vaginal cavity!...or otherwise) is so classically sexist, it throws me off every time I encounter it. I am a human being, regardless of birthing status and I don't need to be intercepted by sperm in order to find all the joy and happiness life has to offer. It's possible that I may look further than my uteral and vulvar regions for life satisfaction. Who knew?!

Good luck, Mama Soltera. Maybe start looking into what would make you happier, career-wise, and start taking baby-steps toward it.


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate it, both of you. I absolutely do need more intellectual stimulation. My current job is not giving that to me and, despite the fact that I graduated at the top of my class, I cannot seem to get another job. I just get rejection after rejection. I think part of that is that my experience is in fields unrelated to my degree (I'm trying to change my career path).
> 
> Also, as a solo mother, I really need a romantic adult relationship/partnership. But I am having no luck there. I really hate the double standard where a man with children has little to no problems dating but women with more than one child, well, it's very hard. And there are not a lot of feminist men out there that I have seen.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to vent. I am just feeling very stuck in my life and it doesn't help when people have the attitude that, "Well, you're a mom (and a full-time single mom at that) so you just have to work and support your kids and if you have no satisfaction or happiness or down-time in life, oh well, the kids are worth it. End of story." I just cannot survive like that. I truly cannot.


Really? Do you think there is a significant difference in dating if you have two kids vs one kid? That is interesting. I am solo with two kids as well, but I am not interested in dating.


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## Mama Soltera

I feel like it makes a difference when you have three. lol I guess I can see how that would be scary to some men.

I believe the kid meant that my son was a girl with balls. Nice, huh? He also told him to get a haircut. They go to an alternative school and no one would ever say anything (much less notice) about the long hair thing. I agree, boys look adorable with long hair. It's just interesting to me to see how many alternative/natural/feminist type women still keep their boys' hair very short and traditional looking. Maybe it does come from a place of not wanting their kids to stand out and risk getting made fun of. I can understand that but then that is why things take so long to change. Fear.

Princesstutu, thanks so much for your thoughts. I really agree with you and I am starting to take those baby steps. It's a little scary when my kids are depending fully on me financially but having a miserable mom is not good for them either. I appreciate your encouragement.


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## hildare

mama s.. i don't think that it's healthy or normal to 'live for your kids.'

i think humans need companionship and love from a variety of sources, and also need a good bit of self expression, in whatever form that takes, to be truly happy.

like, i like to make stuff. and sit on my butt and read. and play in the woods sometimes. and if i don't get to do those things, it makes me a little off balance. i have a great career. i am lucky. but i have had this career when i didn't have a kid or a significant other, and it sucked. a career can't sustain someone/ just as the love of your children, however meaningful it is, cannot.

would people be saying this to just lift you up a little? i have noticed that in our society, when anyone alludes to being depressed (or upset with anything- the current political situation or the price of gas or whatever) then people automatically put those "you shouldn't be unhappy" kinds of trips on you. like depression isn't a normal state and they have to talk you out of it.

is there something besides kids and work you like to do? or have always wanted to do? could you find some fulfillment taking a class or doing some kind of performance art or something? my advice is to do that thing. as soon as you can.

there are feminist men out there. they do exist!


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## jesrox

Mama Soltera- I can definately see where you are coming from. I think that while your children are obviously an important part of your life- too many women make them the only focus of their lfie shutting out all other opportunities. If you are happy doing that it is one thing, but many of us need other sources of fulfillment. Hang in there with looking for a new job. Do you have the opportunity to join any outside activities/do volunteer work? Sometimes those kind of non-networking things can lead to jobs and even relationships ( and adult time!!) My job is stressful at times but I really feel like I am making a difference and that social work is my "calling" and that is why I work- I don't feel "guilty" that I am not home with my son as I dont think I would be nearly as good at being a stay at home mom!!


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## princesstutu

Well, I'd like some input on a challenge I am facing in my life. I think this pertains to radical feminism.

I have real, fundamental, philosophical, ethical, and spiritual problems with capitalism. Always have.

However, this challenge is getting in the way of my financial freedom and success. (Well, of course it is, right?) I do not do well as an employee (emotionally) and so I am working to move past my issues with capitalism in order to be successful as an entrepreneur.

Anyone else struggle with this?

I have plenty of (I think) great ideas and I am passionate about them...up until the marketing perspective comes in.

Now, I have tried to convince myself that I can just "do my thing" and money will follow, but that hasn't worked out to my financial benefit. Any ideas? Book suggestions? People to research and emulate?


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## MittensKittens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *princesstutu*
> 
> Well, I'd like some input on a challenge I am facing in my life. I think this pertains to radical feminism.
> 
> I have real, fundamental, philosophical, ethical, and spiritual problems with capitalism. Always have.
> 
> However, this challenge is getting in the way of my financial freedom and success. (Well, of course it is, right?) I do not do well as an employee (emotionally) and so I am working to move past my issues with capitalism in order to be successful as an entrepreneur.
> 
> Anyone else struggle with this?
> 
> I have plenty of (I think) great ideas and I am passionate about them...up until the marketing perspective comes in.
> 
> Now, I have tried to convince myself that I can just "do my thing" and money will follow, but that hasn't worked out to my financial benefit. Any ideas? Book suggestions? People to research and emulate?


What kind of ideas are you after? Career ideas? In that case - running or being part of non-profit organizations that support a cause you agree with, women's centers, ecological organizations, something like that. If you are a writer, writing for alternative publications can also be an option. It is important to realize nobody can escape the system and that it is possible to be employed or be an employer yourself (an ethical one)while still working for change. Another option would be to be employed, but to be active in a trade union to further the rights of workers as well.


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## oceane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MittensKittens*
> 
> What kind of ideas are you after? Career ideas? In that case - running or being part of non-profit organizations that support a cause you agree with, women's centers, ecological organizations, something like that. If you are a writer, writing for alternative publications can also be an option. It is important to realize nobody can escape the system and that it is possible to be employed or be an employer yourself (an ethical one)while still working for change. Another option would be to be employed, but to be active in a trade union to further the rights of workers as well.


I second this. I do not have any literature recommendations, but I do see the ambiguity in my daily life as well.


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## MittensKittens

We had a run-in with gender stereotyping today, and I am feeling particularly lost write now. You can read about it on my blog here http://www.writeaboutbirth.com/index.php/gender-stereotyping-can-you-free-your-kids-from-it/rambling/ if you have the patience.

How do we free ourselves from this? It sucks so badly.


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## Mama Soltera

It always sneaks in somehow. We are immersed in the culture whether we agree on it or not. But here's what we have going for us: We are actually thinking about these things and open to discussing and dissecting them. It comes out in our kids at a certain age but luckily that's the age where we can start talking to them about it and explaining (depending on their age just a little or a lot) what our culture says about things and why and (more importantly) what we have to say about it and why. The older my kids get, the more we discuss it, and the more they learn what ways they feel comfortable accepting or rejecting the cultural status quo when it comes to gender. But yeah, I know what you mean about that sinking feeling where you see how much of it they've actually absorbed despite your steadfastness. Just know you're not alone.


----------



## punkrockmomma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *princesstutu*
> 
> Well, I'd like some input on a challenge I am facing in my life. I think this pertains to radical feminism.
> 
> I have real, fundamental, philosophical, ethical, and spiritual problems with capitalism. Always have.
> 
> However, this challenge is getting in the way of my financial freedom and success. (Well, of course it is, right?) I do not do well as an employee (emotionally) and so I am working to move past my issues with capitalism in order to be successful as an entrepreneur.
> 
> Anyone else struggle with this?
> 
> I have plenty of (I think) great ideas and I am passionate about them...up until the marketing perspective comes in.
> 
> Now, I have tried to convince myself that I can just "do my thing" and money will follow, but that hasn't worked out to my financial benefit. Any ideas? Book suggestions? People to research and emulate?


Huge radical feminist right here!!







I'm so happy I found a bunch of other women who "get it" in regards to the importance of feminism and why patriarchy is even detrimental to men!!

Princesstutu, check out the documentary "The Economics of Happiness" I think you might find it inspiring. I understand what you mean, and have decided that I want to teach philosophy and feminist theory someday, and I want to work, possibly, in family and civil law in the non-profit sector so I can help people who live in poverty not be victimized by a system that caters to people with the most money. I've also found the work of Jane Addams to be extremely inspiring, and would love to start my own settlement house someday!!


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## hildare

princesstutu, that's exactly why i do what i do for a living.

as you probably know dh & i are anticapitalists and anarchists. dh owned his own business when we were married. he sold it, though.

he felt that it was perfectly fine for him to do this as it allowed him to work for himself and he resolved never to have employees, which is what we have philosophically the most problem with. the business was based also around supplying products to people who enjoyed a particular DIY activity (to be perfectly vague).. that sounds illegal. it wasn't  he also didn't make an extraordinary amount of money.

i guess it depends on the business you want to run. you know that there are many collectively run businesses out there, if you're planning on having people work with you & that's what kind of business you have in mind, take a look at some of those.. there are lots of bakeries and coffeeshops out there (just google collective bakery etc)

sorry to point you to wikipedia (lazy me) but there's a really good entry on worker cooperatives.

did you have a business in mind already or are thinking of ideas?

collective labor is not capitalist. it's anti capitalist <3


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## Toposlonoshlep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *princesstutu*
> 
> I am boggled by women who are not pro-choice. I understand it's their right, but...I just don't comprehend how one feels that's even a possibility. How could you NOT think you should be able to do what you need to do with your own life and body?
> 
> peace


Hi Princess!

I want to introduce another perspective on the issue, one of a woman who is pro-life, but considers herself to be very involved with women's rights. I don't call myself a feminist (because I believe that the feminism of the 70s is dead, unfortunately, and because I don't like "isms" or "ists" in general), but I do make life decisions based on my awareness of patriarchal schemes and historical control. Now, back to the issue at hand. Although I consider myself to be a liberal on other political issues, the reason I never belonged to a political party is that there is one issue I just don't agree with. And this is it. Have you ever considered that the people who are pro-life (other than the religious nuts who are..well, extremists) may feel this way for reasons other than they don't think that what a woman does with her body and life should be up to her? I certainly believe that. But my conflict is that I feel that from the moment a child is conceived (actually, possibly even before that if you consider my spiritual inclinations) it is a human being. It is a person, an innocent being, that just HAPPENS to need a body within which to develop enough to be born. The theory that it is a woman's body is lost on me, as it is not a woman's arm, leg, ear, or fingernail. It is a separate being brought into existence residing INSIDE the woman. To me, killing a baby (and to me, a baby is a baby from the day it is conceived regardless of whether you call it a zygote, embryo, or fetus. Those are scientific names for a child in a certain stage of development. Saying it is not yet a human is like saying a 5 year old is not yet a human because she is not as developed as a 7 year old.) is murder. It doesn't make a difference to me whether you stab a person in front of you or within you, just like it doesn't make a difference how old the person is. I don't mean any disrespect, and I don't want to bring judgement into it. Just wanted to offer my views and possibly another perspective since you said you couldn't understand. Abortion, as I see it, is not a right, no more than murder is. It has nothing to do with feminism ro self-empowerment. It is a separate issue and I wish people would remove it from bundles of political views which have thus far guided our country on it typical path. Peace!


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## Adaline'sMama

As far as I am aware, MDC does not host abortion debates, for good reason. The last thing I want to hear on the 4th anniversary of my abortion is you calling me a murderer.


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## Toposlonoshlep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> As far as I am aware, MDC does not host abortion debates, for good reason. The last thing I want to hear on the 4th anniversary of my abortion is you calling me a murderer.


I'm sorry you feel I am calling you a name. The PP stated she didn't understand how women could be anti-abortion and I was simply offering my standpoint. I specifically refrained from judgement of other MDC members or name calling. Peace to you, mama!


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## Mama Soltera

Topos, when people say "her body" they mean her body. Pregnancy and childbirth wreak some serious havok on a woman's body. And I'm not talking about putting on weight or anything like that. It effects her health, her metabolism, can cause all kinds of complications, it permanently moves bones, rips and scars skin in delicate and not-so-delicate places, even breaks bones sometimes. Your body as you know it will never be the same after carrying and delivering a full-term baby.

I respect the opinions of others but I'm pretty shocked you expect everyone else to accept your comparing an abortion to murdering a child. Everyone has different experiences and beliefs but a blastocyst and a young embryo are *extremely* different things than a full-term fetus or a toddler or a child.

I can understand your wanting to respond to tutu's comment, but your post did come across and extreme and inaccurate and was probably hurtful and upsetting to many. I do think it's a good topic to explore as far as feminism goes, but I think that telling a woman she is the same as a person who would murder a seven-year-old and assuming that your spiritual/intellectual beliefs are the only right ones is not the way to go about it. Just my 2 cents.


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## Mama Soltera

Oops, I forgot to add that my point in talking about "her body" is to say that it is the right of no one but her to decide if she is willing and able to put her body through all of that. Forcing a woman to do it would be a crime, imo.


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## Mama Soltera

Adeline's mama, your baby looks so sweet and beautiful. She's very lucky to have a mama who wanted her 100% and was ready to give her the absolute best. I hope you don't still have the chills.


----------



## Toposlonoshlep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Topos, when people say "her body" they mean her body. Pregnancy and childbirth wreak some serious havok on a woman's body. And I'm not talking about putting on weight or anything like that. It effects her health, her metabolism, can cause all kinds of complications, it permanently moves bones, rips and scars skin in delicate and not-so-delicate places, even breaks bones sometimes. Your body as you know it will never be the same after carrying and delivering a full-term baby.
> 
> I respect the opinions of others but I'm pretty shocked you expect everyone else to accept your comparing an abortion to murdering a child. Everyone has different experiences and beliefs but a blastocyst and a young embryo are *extremely* different things than a full-term fetus or a toddler or a child.
> 
> I can understand your wanting to respond to tutu's comment, but your post did come across and extreme and inaccurate and was probably hurtful and upsetting to many. I do think it's a good topic to explore as far as feminism goes, but I think that telling a woman she is the same as a person who would murder a seven-year-old and assuming that your spiritual/intellectual beliefs are the only right ones is not the way to go about it. Just my 2 cents.


I don't expect people to accept anything they don't feel comfortable with. I am sorry my opinion seems extreme and that it hurts people's feelings, but it is my genuine opinion, just as pro-choice is yours. I find pro-choice beliefs to be inaccurate, hurtful, and upsetting. But I live with the legality of abortion daily. That's the beauty of opinions. They CAN'T be inaccurate.That's the beauty of America, as well. We have differences of points of view. I was offering another perspective in regards to how SOME (myself included) may consider themselves to be feminists without sharing the popular feminist abortion view. I disagree that a blastocyst and a young embryo are extremely different from a toddler. That is not what I believe spiritually. By nature, my spiritual/intellectual beliefs are right for me. They may not be for you. I wasn't trying to convert anyone to them. I was stating them to make it clear how a pro-life feminist views the topic. I respect you and your point of view and did not want to hurt anyone's feelings. I was just being honest. I didn't say what you assert in the last two sentences, so I don't feel I need to defend it.


----------



## Toposlonoshlep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Adeline's mama, your baby looks so sweet and beautiful. She's very lucky to have a mama who wanted her 100% and was ready to give her the absolute best. I hope you don't still have the chills.


I agree with this. I am sorry you are hurt by my opinion. It is not directed at you personally. It is my societal and spiritual view. Your baby IS gorgeous.


----------



## punkrockmomma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MittensKittens*
> 
> We had a run-in with gender stereotyping today, and I am feeling particularly lost write now. You can read about it on my blog here http://www.writeaboutbirth.com/index.php/gender-stereotyping-can-you-free-your-kids-from-it/rambling/ if you have the patience.
> 
> How do we free ourselves from this? It sucks so badly.


I've been battling this since my DD went into daycare, when I went back to school. Unfortunately for her she has a mama who is very feminine in some ways,I love the color pink and I am very feminine in how I dress, but I refuse to wear makeup and I hate many, many things that are stereotypically feminine, and my DD seems to be following in her mother's footsteps, ie being feminine yet being herself (for now anyway). Some of the ways that I have tried to express my morals and values about *societal* gender roles is by reading my DD "pedagogical" stories. The ones that I have read to her so far are "Princess Boy" (this one is my personal favorite), "It's Okay to Be Different", and "William's Doll". Ultimately, my goal is to reinforce to her that gender roles are socially constructed, just like society itself, and that societal roles and rules aren't facts of nature; they can change as humans and society evolve, and are fluid not concrete.

What I find fascinating and ultimately disturbing in respect to western culture is how in many other cultures around the world gender roles aren't rigid they are more fluid, and transgender individuals have an accepted, opposed to ostracized, place in society, and in some cases are considered holy or sacred. I find this subject both fascinating, and disturbing. At the college I go to I have the option of taking a class called "Gender Diversity" that explores this issue even further, and I plan on taking it at some point before graduate, so that I can learn more about it.

I'm right with you MittensKittens. I totally understand what you are getting at.


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## princesstutu

Ooops! I posted and jetted, again. It happens. Thanks for replying, everyone!

Since I got that anti-capitalism post out, I've made headway on my businesses. I have 3 main ones: life coach (of sorts, more of a telephone cheering squad who also offers clear perspective when needed), continuing to offer my parenting classes, and becoming a fortune teller at farmers markets.  That last one is simply for the fun of it. Also, I've taken my jewelry-making to another level and have my first order!

I worked for non-profits. It's not my thing. I was a community organizer for a bit here in CA and I found it highly depressing after a while. So many "progressives" are not as spiritually progressive as I need in order to be around them all day. I don't want my daily life (and the daily life of my baby, who is with me where ever I work since she's been born) surrounded by anger and war mentalities. Got burnt out really quickly with that. Not enough love in the industry...and it *is* an industry. So, I just pushed myself (b/c why be my own impediment any longer?) and made some progress. I'm really proud of myself!

Also, since I'm a writer, I've written a couple of pieces that I want to submit, but now I just need to find the gumption for all that.  One step at a time. I'm walking, no matter how slowly.

Now, to something a bit more controversial, huh?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toposlonoshlep*
> 
> Hi Princess!
> 
> I want to introduce another perspective on the issue, one of a woman who is pro-life, but considers herself to be very involved with women's rights. I don't call myself a feminist (because I believe that the feminism of the 70s is dead, unfortunately, and because I don't like "isms" or "ists" in general), but I do make life decisions based on my awareness of patriarchal schemes and historical control. Now, back to the issue at hand. Although I consider myself to be a liberal on other political issues, the reason I never belonged to a political party is that there is one issue I just don't agree with. And this is it. Have you ever considered that the people who are pro-life (other than the religious nuts who are..well, extremists) may feel this way for reasons other than they don't think that what a woman does with her body and life should be up to her? I certainly believe that. But my conflict is that I feel that from the moment a child is conceived (actually, possibly even before that if you consider my spiritual inclinations) it is a human being. It is a person, an innocent being, that just HAPPENS to need a body within which to develop enough to be born. The theory that it is a woman's body is lost on me, as it is not a woman's arm, leg, ear, or fingernail. It is a separate being brought into existence residing INSIDE the woman. To me, killing a baby (and to me, a baby is a baby from the day it is conceived regardless of whether you call it a zygote, embryo, or fetus. Those are scientific names for a child in a certain stage of development. Saying it is not yet a human is like saying a 5 year old is not yet a human because she is not as developed as a 7 year old.) is murder. It doesn't make a difference to me whether you stab a person in front of you or within you, just like it doesn't make a difference how old the person is. I don't mean any disrespect, and I don't want to bring judgement into it. Just wanted to offer my views and possibly another perspective since you said you couldn't understand. Abortion, as I see it, is not a right, no more than murder is. It has nothing to do with feminism ro self-empowerment. It is a separate issue and I wish people would remove it from bundles of political views which have thus far guided our country on it typical path. Peace!


 Hi! Thanks for sharing your perspective with me. I hear you, I understand what you're saying, I still don't understand the mentality. I'll explain more further.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> As far as I am aware, MDC does not host abortion debates, for good reason. The last thing I want to hear on the 4th anniversary of my abortion is you calling me a murderer.


 I'm sorry you felt that way, Adaline's Mama. I hope my actions right now are not dredging up more emotional pain for you, but I do want to address the post since it was addressed to me. I don't think she was calling you a murderer. I think the problem with discussing things like this is that we take personal what people say about our choices. Never take anything anyone says personal. Even if it's about you! People speak of and for themselves, only. Even when we call ourselves advocating for others, we are speaking for ourselves. Much love!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Oops, I forgot to add that my point in talking about "her body" is to say that it is the right of no one but her to decide if she is willing and able to put her body through all of that. Forcing a woman to do it would be a crime, imo.


 I totally agree. In a society such as ours, where women are still considered and treated as property (of a man, of the state, whatever), this liberty we have to create our lives the way we'd like to (as much as it is possible) is an important one. I actually think that religions that impose beliefs about what a woman's life and body are for (the family, to procreate, etc.) are passing on an abusive message. More on that below.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toposlonoshlep*
> 
> I don't expect people to accept anything they don't feel comfortable with. I am sorry my opinion seems extreme and that it hurts people's feelings, but it is my genuine opinion, just as pro-choice is yours. I find pro-choice beliefs to be inaccurate, hurtful, and upsetting. But I live with the legality of abortion daily. That's the beauty of opinions. They CAN'T be inaccurate.That's the beauty of America, as well. We have differences of points of view. I was offering another perspective in regards to how SOME (myself included) may consider themselves to be feminists without sharing the popular feminist abortion view. I disagree that a blastocyst and a young embryo are extremely different from a toddler. That is not what I believe spiritually. By nature, my spiritual/intellectual beliefs are right for me. They may not be for you. I wasn't trying to convert anyone to them. I was stating them to make it clear how a pro-life feminist views the topic. I respect you and your point of view and did not want to hurt anyone's feelings. I was just being honest. I didn't say what you assert in the last two sentences, so I don't feel I need to defend it.


 I am not going to debate your own beliefs with you unless you want me to. hahaa! I will suggest, though, that when we think of life on a more spiritual note (as I do, as well), wouldn't we agree that a spirit is NOT a body and can inhabit another body, therefore making the body non-vital to life, from a spiritual perspective when we are talking about when life begins, etc.?

For instance, I know my kids hung around me before they invaded (haha!) my body. I invited a few of them in, actually. So, I jest by saying "invaded". Because I know spirit exists outside of the material realm, I don't have to worry if I decide I am not willing to create the opportunity for a spirit to come into the world/material life through my body. I can speak with spirit and ask for understanding about my feelings.

I think to act like it is my responsibility to host a life I am not willing and/or ready to support represents a lack of understanding about how life works on the spiritual level. Physical life is a privilege and an honor and a choice. That is my spiritual belief. As such, I am not beholden to offer anyone the opportunity to become my child. And, spirit understands. That is the point of free will. One of them, anyway.

To say abortion is murder is to need to explain who is at fault for miscarriages. Both are abortions, technically. One spontaneous, the other not so spontaneous. It is so easy to blame a woman, but who gets blamed otherwise? If we look through time, we can see that women used to get blamed for both. We can see that they sometimes still are. When we teach women that it is their sacred duty and position to bring life into the world, miscarriage can carry a LOT of weight to the spirits of the women who have them. Hence a society full of women who never quite heal from whatever pregnancy outcome they had.

It is enough that women want to have babies. We don't need spiritual beliefs to indoctrinate a level of fear into something that is a biological happening. Women are entitled to feel however they want about what happens in their lives. We don't need legal systems that infringe upon their opportunities to be able to feel however they want to feel about what happens in their lives.

And, that is why I am pro-choice. Because I don't get to decide for you what spiritual and emotional path your life takes. That is your right and I respect that. So, I will not vote for a lack of options in your life. Which is what pro-life legislature, which stems from pro-life beliefs, does. It lessens the spiritual and emotional options in a woman's life.

Are you telling me that your spirituality supports limiting the spiritual and emotional options in people's lives? Maybe it does. I cannot relate or understand, if so, and that's okay with me. I understand religions having rules for folks to adhere to. Sometimes, we spiritually expand best within material limitations. For a time. But, if I look at the Big Picture, I see that God always seems to say, "You have free will."

Because of that, I will not be okay with telling a woman she has no free will when her egg invites in some sperm.


----------



## Mama Soltera

Very eloquentlly said, tutu. Thanks for sharing your POV with us.


----------



## LittleGriff

Just discovered this thread! (Was browsing punkrockmomma's posts and look, and here's the ever eloquent, founding member, princesstutu!)

I do consider myself a radical feminist, though odds are my definition won't quite fit with yours. (Darn definitions, always interfering with communication.) I was surprised by the intense reaction to a recent post (ok, it was an angry vent, I admit! I think we get one every 4 years ; ) I made on the Working Parent board and so was excited to see this thread with the term "radical" in the title. I'm still working on the back posts but wanted to say hello and thanks for being here. Looking forward to catching up.

In my mind the "radical" term applies to me because I'm always pissing someone off no matter how hard I try to censor what I perceive to be areas of potential offense. (Or as the director of admissions at the business school I attended - see, I'm a raving capitalist which may not sit well with some of you already - "the problem with you is that you're too direct and aggressive" which was a laugh when you are a sometimes timid female research nerd in a 65% male class, all determined to be investment bankers.) Moderation has never been my forte, but I see its value and am working on it.

As for "feminist", I consider myself a radical humanist really, but I dislike the way feminist is used as an insult, so happily wear it with pride, even if the particulars don't always fit.

Mainly, I dislike useless boundaries and rules and want to be seen as a human being above all, plain and simple. I have worked in a virtually all male environment for the last decade. I decided if you can't beat 'em, join 'em in college. (Not men, but the powerful and rich ... who do generally happen to be men.) My career is the right intellectual fit for me, but I think rectifying the gender imbalance in my line of work would be a good thing for the world and is actually a huge reason I stay in it even when days/months/years go by when I think it's too miserable to carry on. If it was already 50/50 women here, ironically, I might be inclined to call it a day and go do something that brought me joy. (Or maybe if it was 50/50 women, I would have joy in what I do! Not sure.)

But despite my penchant for annoying people with my opinions, I have an overwhelming urge that everyone like me. So I'm usually either offending or apologizing - phew. Working on that too. Though in which direction, I'm not sure!

Anyway ... hi!


----------



## princesstutu

Hi! You know, I might need to hang around more "raving capitalists" so...Welcome! LOL

Ah, terminology. I almost decided to be a "womanist" instead of a "feminist" (I am definitely not a humanist...not in the technical way, but one never knows if people mean in technically b/c people like to use "humanist" to mean someone who values all humans in a kind of reference to "feminist", which is not what it means, so...lol!), but I feel that so often, we like to abandon language before the work is even complete and then we have to go through the "recreating the wheel" phase because we have to constantly help form a frame of reference for what we are now calling ourselves.

Which never really works b/c people tend to believe whatever they want to believe and/or whatever they're told.

So, I stick with "feminist". Are there many kinds? Well, that's okay with me. I think, though, that basically people can understand what I mean when I say I'm a feminist (I think females are not only not inherently inferior to males, but we are also just as important as males and deserve to be treated as such on all levels of society) and people who can't understand it I mostly think are just trying not to. Which I'm also okay with. I like to know where people stand from the gate so that we don't have to waste too much time in miscommunication.


----------



## LittleGriff

Yes, I may have an unnecessary discomfort with labels, partly due to personal experience with them gone awry. When I didn't eat meat I didn't call myself a vegetarian. I think this is the first time in my life I've referred to myself as a capitalist. It is useful to have a frame of reference but I still always feel uneasy using such terminology on myself, particularly since my beliefs are always evolving. (After an 8 year "break" I started eating meat again ...) I just want to be free to be me! ha.

I am most likely not using the technical term for humanist. (I looked up both humanism and feminism after making my prior post.) I was thinking of it in terms of, as Wikipedia put well: comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition. This does potentially encompass feminism as well as other -isms. I certainly don't disagree with your phrasing of feminism, princesstutu, (that is, I agree that that's the appropriate definition and that it represents my beliefs) but by stating that women are equal to men I feel like I'm affirming that it is up for debate. And it just isn't, period. So I don't like to start the conversation there. Sort of like, I don't go around calling myself a "sky's-blue-ist". (Well, duh.) Or how I worry about where the line on talking about racial discrimination improves attitudes or makes them worse (by repeating bad ideas which should be sent to the grave pronto). I never use the word "tomboy" (which implies "boy" characteristics are of greater value). I never say I kept my name when I got married (because it emphasize that action as an aberration when I would like it not to be) but sometimes I like to remark that my husband chose to keep his (to catch people's attention). I dislike "women's issues" as a category (because it specializes what is a fundamental human problem that should be of concern to all involved). And I will never tell my daughter she can "be anything she wants". (Well, duh. (But also, unfortunately, no human being can be anything s/he wants, goes the little voice in my head, so why not be more specific.))

And more than anything, I'm striving to live by idea that actions speak louder than words. (Which doesn't do any good on a internet forum, so I've got to find the right words.) So I don't have to worry about definitions.

I am the daughter of a classic 2nd wave feminist and Women's Studies was the first class I signed up for in undergrad, and I spent one semester at an all girls college. That's well over a decade ago now, so the specifics are a bit fuzzy, but ultimately I got very burned out on the victim language of everything I was tuned into on that front, as well as the disregard for statistics and good empirical data. (Hence my obsession with the rejection of "supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition".) And the limited appetite for true debate and dissent (as is common in many well-meaning movements. people are people.) And though I never thought of myself as NOT a feminist, I didn't want to talk about it in that language anymore. I decided to go live life (as it happens, choosing a field and professional that was nearly devoid of women but certainly not for that reason) and see what happened. I wanted to feel powerful and free and, ironically, the time I spent wearing the official "feminist" label made me feel the opposite because the conversation felt so negative and narrow.

And as generic as humanism may sound, for me it is the basis of my life approach. The experience of women is of particular interest to me, obviously, but since I have a place in my heart for individuals of all stripes, sizes and aptitudes, "humanism" is a better starting point for me than putting together a laundry list of the human categories I am especially concerned about. And casting the conversation in terms of rational logic and data rather than unverified assertions is critical for me.

But certainly, I feel like I have a notion of what someone means when they say "feminist" and I say "right on". And having lived in an atmosphere nearly devoid of women for the last decade has given me a whole new perspective on the issues I was thinking about as a much younger woman. (to say the least! phew.) So I'm feeling ok to put the feminist label back on. But mostly I'm ready to talk to other women again about what's going on and what to do about all of this. Cuz it's been a long, lonely trek I've been on.


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## Mama Soltera

Hi littlegriff. It's so nice to have your voice added here.


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## princesstutu

I agree. It's nice to have your voice here. And, I feel like I completely understand where you're coming from. I think I've been on that path although I didn't stop at all the places you did. For a while, I wanted to find a term that said what "feminist" says...plus more. In the end, I found that I was fine with "feminist" and drew a little closer to it after dealing with folks who claim to think all humans are equal, and then something racist comes out their mouths.

I've learned that the labels don't mean so much, so if I want to pick one to stand under, I'll do so simply b/c it makes life a wee bit easier, not because I necessarily expect us to see eye-to-eye on most everything.

I actually think it makes perfect sense for any member of a blatantly and across-board oppressed group to be a capitalist. And, there can be many ways to look at what makes someone a capitalist. I mean, technically, we're all capitalists.







Like it or not.

I'm the daughter of Black Nationalists turned African-American. I have bitterness on tap.


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## Mama Soltera

So, kind of a random subject: Is Patricia Cornwell a total racist or what? I had never read her before, never had any interest. But one of her books came into my posession and I thought, "Why not? Let's find out why she's always on the best sellers list." I'm only 70 or so pages in and I'm pretty appalled at all the racism. I'm not talking about racist characters, I'm talking about her. I write fiction as well and I know the difference. If any of you have read her I would appreciate your feedback. I'm pretty disturbed that this is what America is buying. When are we ever going to reject the same old racist stuff and finally leave it behind? What's even more frustrating is that it's likely most if not all of her readers somehow don't even notice it.


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## Mama Soltera

Just wanted to add that I also found the book dedication to Billy Graham (sp) odd.


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## hildare

mama s, wikipedia says she's a descendant of harriet beecher stowe. (??)

then.. i am playing in computer land, and i was just going to google her name and the term racism... just for kicks. apparently google has some cease and desist orders to remove results from the list? i have never seen this before. the statement is "in response to a legal request submitted to google, we have removed x results from this page (the search results from those terms)... that is odd esp with the prominence of the info about harriet beecher stowe on the wikipedia page. i guess just from lazy googling and not having read her work (i don't like crime novels) that she's a racist and her pr folks/agents are working to negate this legally?


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## Sukhada

I'm curious about this thread...although I'm not entirely sure I'm a radical feminist. I was at one point, but I found that not all of the issues that were important to me were well supported by feminism. Being pregnant, I am aware of how we construct pregnancy as a gendered experience. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that pregnancy and birth are the exclusive domains of women. I get a little irked by referring to pregnancy as exclusively a women's issue and where that leaves pregnant people who do not identify as women.


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## Mama Soltera

Welcome Sudkada. You sound like a radical feminist to me, but everyone here has their own definition.

Hildare, I don't think her being a descendant of HBS means in any way that she's not a racist, kwim? That is a very strange search result.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about in her novel: she has a scene where a man who is interacting with a woman he doesn't know but is attracted to (both are white) goes through autopsy photos and picks one out to lay in front of her (for fun). It is a drug dealer described as a "young black male" who is lying on the autopsy table, dead of course, naked, with his chest open and organs out of his body and then she talks about his very "prominent organ" that must have meant a lot to him when he was alive, etc. There is just all kinds of things going on there... and that's just one example.


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## Mama Soltera

Sorry Sukhada, I tried to edit to fix the spelling of your screen name but it wouldn't let me.


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## hildare

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> Welcome Sudkada. You sound like a radical feminist to me, but everyone here has their own definition.
> 
> Hildare, I don't think her being a descendant of HBS means in any way that she's not a racist, kwim? That is a very strange search result.
> 
> Just as an example of what I'm talking about in her novel: she has a scene where a man who is interacting with a woman he doesn't know but is attracted to (both are white) goes through autopsy photos and picks one out to lay in front of her (for fun). It is a drug dealer described as a "young black male" who is lying on the autopsy table, dead of course, naked, with his chest open and organs out of his body and then she talks about his very "prominent organ" that must have meant a lot to him when he was alive, etc. There is just all kinds of things going on there... and that's just one example.


i thought it was kind of like... putting it in one of the first paragraphs on wikipedia (i assumed it was a pr stunt/agent doing it or something like that) was sort of her saying : "LOOK! I can't be a racist! my ANCESTOR was an abolitionist!" lol.. i did find some people that were complaining about the dialogue/dialect used when non white people were speaking, and another thing about a book with a nightwatchman who behaved in a stereotypical way.

but, you know, i've been complaining to anybody who will listen about the book The Help, because it's such a bestseller but so, so, so ickily done in a way that i feel is condescending and trying-not-to-be-racist but actually very much so. popularity of an author is no indication that her/his work isn't sexist or racist.


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## Mama Soltera

Oh, that makes sense. Interesting. That probably is what including that information is all about.

It is interesting to think about how even in things like literature we keep feeding old patterns and ideas and inequalities, and in writing about them and letting them slide while we read about them, we keep them alive. Unfortunatey, often things that push against all of that do not sell. .


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## hildare

ok.. here's a discussion question for you all.

how are you raising your children in a feminist way? are you raising your children to be feminists themselves? how do you teach this?

<3


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## Mama Soltera

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> ok.. here's a discussion question for you all.
> 
> how are you raising your children in a feminist way? are you raising your children to be feminists themselves? how do you teach this?
> 
> <3


Oh, absolutely I am. We talk about sexism whenever it comes up. If there was an ad we passed by in the car or a movie I let them watch that I didn't agree with, we discuss it. Certain real life situations come up too. Unfortunately there are so many opportunites where it's appropriate to point it out and discuss it. I talk to them about equality and the past, how far we've come and how far we have to go, what they can do to make sure they're not contributing to sexism and patriarchy. Of course I explain it all in appropriate ways for their age levels, but they really do get it and are very aware. It's awesome.


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## cynthia mosher

Hi everyone!

We have a new feature that allows forum members to create "clubs" of their own that have many of the same benefits of a forum, including multiple threads, a member's list, and group messaging. All tribes are invited to switch from the one-long-thread here in FYT to the new Social Groups. You can read more about it *here. *Let me know if you have any questions but please post to that thread so I can keep everything in one place.


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## Tropicalfever

Hi everyone!

Has this thread closed or has it turned into a group ? Please let me kno thanks


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## filamentary

not sure if this thread is still active, but i'm subscribing to come back and read.

for now i'll just mention that i'm uber feminist, studied sex/gender and race in the context of inequality in school. i think anne fausto-sterling pretty much sums up everything important about how sex/gender (yes, both) are binary categories informed more by culture (folk theory) than science in her book "sexing the body: gender politics and the construction of sexuality". that book is like gospel to me, i will always readily sing its praises!









but as far as practical day-to-day concerns go, i have a lot to think about. i admit that i keep hoping for a "girl" - and then being like, what's wrong with me?! (my mom even called me out on that one!) i am by no means immune to the heavy influence of binary culture, and i don't think it's entirely escapable, even if in an ideal scenario i would prefer that, so i need to make sure i've got my head on straight so i don't do a disservice to the kiddo. i want to parent the kid as gender-neutrally as it is possible to do so. but i know even i will fall short. i think my own personal red flag is that i can't quite escape the pull somewhere inside of hoping for a "girl". this is a sign to me that my brain isn't quite where i want it to be.

i found this thread b/c i wanted to find some enlightened conversations about gender, but most threads w/ the word "gender" are not about this particular concern of mine. so, i figure a thread about radical feminism is most likely to have some of this discussion.

now here's my big head scratcher for now: i've done my research, academically, and am 100% convinced that there are no differences (especially in childhood) in personality, temperament, or intelligence, that correlate with chromosomes or genitals (and young kids don't have any discernable hormonal differences, so those aren't a factor here). so when we observe, again and again, that elementary school boys seem more prone to throw tantrums, less into being cuddly, more hyper and demanding, what does this say about how differently we are parenting boys versus girls? i've witnessed the behavior in my little cousins: the 2 girls sit on/next to me and snuggle, calmly, and the boys are romping around. the girls get all the connection and reassurance from physical touch, while the boys keep checking in verbally (showing, asking, describing). and i've seen attitude of deference & inevitability in my sister, when i am like, why don't you guys just sit and snuggle more? and she says they're boys, just more hyper, can't sit still, that sorta thing. and all over these message boards i've seen mention of how their DDs are the easy ones while their DSs are the challenging ones.

i am sure many (most?) parents will claim they've treated them identically, and feel certain this is proof of temperamental, constitutional differences. and while i'm certainly not wanting to judge these parents, my social sciences training tells me there are lots of subtle things going on they're not aware of. i really want to understand more about these subtle forces, which obviously play a huge role. and i want to be conscious of them so i can be more effective at avoiding gendered treatment of my little one. yes, i know, tall order!

that's what's on my mind at the moment. maybe this will be a good place to discuss & hear of parents who have defied these trends?









i just started reading "the gender myth", which is looking interesting and promising. anyone else read that one? any thoughts or feedback on this topic?


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