# 60 grams of sugar!



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Is what the parents of my 16 month old daycare charge want me to feed her. At least. I didn't figure the sugar in her whole milk or her Cheerios. But they sent her with an adult-size thing of Yoplait (27 grams), a white grape juice box (22 grams), and a can of Spaghetti-Os (11 grams)!


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Mmm- carbs!

It sounds like they think they're doing good things for this kid, but a lot of parents don't really understand that juice is just sugar, and carbs such as those in processed pasta are also really simple carbs, and not terribly different than a candy bar. Sure, it's a great backup for when there's no time to do anything else, but they're better off with whole grains, protein, fresh whole fruit and water.

Is this a regular meal plan for her?


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I do not see anything on the list that sounds bad (besides the can of Spaghetti O's, yuck.) Most people would not even bat an eye over this meal.

Really, yogurt, Cheerios, white grape juice and milk all sound like good choices, although hey would not be the ones I would make. Even the Spaghetti O's are "kid food".

Honestly, I would be really pissed to be judged like this by my kid's care giver.

I thought I was going to see a post about a tot being feed a lunch of a jelly sandwich, Cheeto's, Oreos, a few fruit roll ups and some Kool Aide for lunch. Maybe even a Pixie Stick for a late afternoon snack. (I used to work in a daycare, I've seen all kinds of things packed in a toddler's lunch box.)


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

This would not be a big deal nor shocking to me. I have seen much, much worse.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, I have sent my kids to daycare before, and I think you have to assume that you're going to be judged. I think this is how they eat all the time. They are all very thin, though. The annoying part for me is that the baby is MISERABLE. I thought it was just here but the mom said she's like that at home, too. She's always super itchy - as soon as her diaper's off she just goes to town scratching, and I just think a better diet would help. I guess I'm frustrated because it is so exhausting to have her cry and fuss and insist on being held the entire day, and then scream in my ear. Maybe I'm just not cut out for daycare.

Anyway, I didn't feed it to her.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Oh, itchy baby! I have a child that reacts that way to lots of artificial stuff in her diet too. I know a can of Spaghetti O's would mean 24 hours of itchiness and cranky/bratty behavior.

It is so hard seeing someone your care about/care for suffering over something that might easily be corrected by simple changes in her diet.

Have you mentioned your experience with kids diets and itchiness and irritability to the parents? Maybe you could start by mentioning the scratching and asking them what they are doing to ease it.

It's also hard to have a high needs baby, especially when there are others that need your attention too. Some kids just need more contact, perfectly healthy diet or not.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Well, I have sent my kids to daycare before, and I think you have to assume that you're going to be judged. I think this is how they eat all the time. They are all very thin, though.

Okay - you flicked on one of my pet peeves. Is there any particular reason for the comment about being thin? I knew a guy in my teens who drank 2-3 Super Big Gulps _every day_ and ate a lot of junk, and drank alcohol on the weekends, and he was skinny as a rail. My ex-FIL was (still is, as far as I know) very thin, and he ate a ton of processed junk, including candy, and drank like a fish (odd expression, that). I have a close friend who watches what she eats more carefully than 95% of the population, and goes for daily walks, plus whatever other exercise she gets, and she's "overweight". Thin doesn't equal a good diet, and vice versa.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

A lot of people don't know much about diet. You could always suggest you provide lunches yourself. Though that can be tricky - I babysit a 5 year old a few times a week and so far the meals I can give him for lunch (that he'll eat) are - kraft dinner, hot dogs, grilled cheese sandwich, perogies, and pasta with bottled sauce. I tried holding out for him to eat meals I'd cooked a few times, and he became quite genuinely upset. Some kids can be very weird about food.

You also might dilute the juice.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I guess I'm frustrated because it is so exhausting to have her cry and fuss and insist on being held the entire day, and then scream in my ear. Maybe I'm just not cut out for daycare.

Anyway, I didn't feed it to her.

Fussiness might or might not be diet related. Regardless, I'd be fit to be tied if my DCP didn't feed my kid the food I provided. If you have a concern about allergies, talk to the parents!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - you flicked on one of my pet peeves. Is there any particular reason for the comment about being thin? I knew a guy in my teens who drank 2-3 Super Big Gulps _every day_ and ate a lot of junk, and drank alcohol on the weekends, and he was skinny as a rail. My ex-FIL was (still is, as far as I know) very thin, and he ate a ton of processed junk, including candy, and drank like a fish (odd expression, that). I have a close friend who watches what she eats more carefully than 95% of the population, and goes for daily walks, plus whatever other exercise she gets, and she's "overweight". Thin doesn't equal a good diet, and vice versa.

Well, yes, there is a particular reason. It's because we eat a "very good diet", and would never be referred to as thin. I know size isn't everything, but I also know, from my own research and work on my own weight loss, that size does affect your health, and extra weight is hard on your heart. So i guess I mentioned it to point out that even though they eat crap, they seem to be much better at appropriate portions than me.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
Fussiness might or might not be diet related. Regardless, I'd be fit to be tied if my DCP didn't feed my kid the food I provided. If you have a concern about allergies, talk to the parents!

Oh, I talked to her about it and do mostly feed her our food. She doesn't care either way. They always send that food, and I mostly don't feed it to her, but she's only here 1-2 days a week, and since I'm 99% sure that's what she eats at home, too, I think it contributes to the fussiness.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Well, yes, there is a particular reason. It's because we eat a "very good diet", and would never be referred to as thin. I know size isn't everything, but I also know, from my own research and work on my own weight loss, that size does affect your health, and extra weight is hard on your heart. So i guess I mentioned it to point out that even though they eat crap, they seem to be much better at appropriate portions than me.

They might not be at all. Some people have to eat an incredible amount of food to put on weight. My mom has a friend who lost 10 pounds when she was sick once. She was already somewhat underweight. She's not terribly active (not super sedentary, either - just not one of those "on the go" people). It took her _almost a year_ to gain back the 10 pounds, despite trying hard to do so, and she felt like crap until she got there.

There are many factors that make people fat or skinny or in-between, and sometimes, the ones on the extremes aren't doing anything we might think.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

When I watched children and they were brought with food like this I thought how nice it was of the parents to think of making watching their child more convenient. Would I feed it to my kids? No. But these aren't my kids.

If I sent my child to be watched with foods I had prepared I would be upset if the CP decided to turn up her nose to my ucky healthy food and feed her what she deemed worthy. Uh, not your kid not your choice.

And size is no indication of diet or health. That's a peeve of mine to, Stormie. There is no way you can tell portion size simply by someone's size either. Not only that but one person's excess weight is another's normal.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

It looks to me like all of this food is very "portable" and easy to grab out of the cabinet. If my son is at home he gets water or 50/50 orange juice/water mix (or milk). However, if we head to the pool, I will sometimes through a juice box into the bag because it is so much easier. She might eat much better at home. I also might add that what she sent her with doesn't even sound *that* terrible to me. Granted, lots of sugar, but my DS had milk, strawberries, and dry cereal for snack and it was probably a lot of sugar as well. Its just everywhere.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

it's not necessarily judgemental to think that lunch for the baby is unhealthy! and if the parents feed it to her, thats up to them, obviously. but it is not a very good diet.

no big deal either way, although it is a little odd that most people don't realize that this is not a nutritious diet.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

I think the numbers are slightly misleading because a 16 month old probably isn't going to eat an entire can of spaghetti-os and might not suck down a whole box of juice, know what I mean? I can take a can of Joe's-Os from TJs and feed two three year olds and my 17 month old with it. Similarly, my 17 month old might take a juice pouch but probably won't be able to finish it like my 3 year old is.

As a home dcp are you or the parents opposed to having you provide all the meals? I used to let parents pack food but it was getting out of hand with the kind of crap some people were bringing and my kids were always wanting to eat what the other kids had. So finally I told everyone I would be providing all the food and asked that all the parents bring in fresh fruit and fresh fruit only for sharing with everyone. So each week, each parent brings whatever, whether it is a small bag of apples, or a ziplock of cut watermelon, or a handful of kiwis.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
I think the numbers are slightly misleading because a 16 month old probably isn't going to eat an entire can of spaghetti-os and might not suck down a whole box of juice, know what I mean? I can take a can of Joe's-Os from TJs and feed two three year olds and my 17 month old with it. Similarly, my 17 month old might take a juice pouch but probably won't be able to finish it like my 3 year old is.

As a home dcp are you or the parents opposed to having you provide all the meals? I used to let parents pack food but it was getting out of hand with the kind of crap some people were bringing and my kids were always wanting to eat what the other kids had. So finally I told everyone I would be providing all the food and asked that all the parents bring in fresh fruit and fresh fruit only for sharing with everyone. So each week, each parent brings whatever, whether it is a small bag of apples, or a ziplock of cut watermelon, or a handful of kiwis.

She's the only one I watch, but yeah, my kids were wanting some of it too.

And, FTR, I told the mom that she was obviously a substandard parent for sending her child with food like that.









I agree with StormBride that different people have different metabolisms. But there is quite a lot of evidence pointing to this being an unhealthy diet, and I guess I just feel annoyed because I think it also affects her mood, especially since she's CONSTANTLY constipated. So, yeah, I probably am being a little judgmental, but it affects my day pretty significantly, so I am sort of within my rights.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
She's the only one I watch, but yeah, my kids were wanting some of it too.

And, FTR, I told the mom that she was obviously a substandard parent for sending her child with food like that.









I agree with StormBride that different people have different metabolisms. But there is quite a lot of evidence pointing to this being an unhealthy diet, and I guess I just feel annoyed because I think it also affects her mood, especially since she's CONSTANTLY constipated. So, yeah, I probably am being a little judgmental, but it affects my day pretty significantly, so I am sort of within my rights.

Oh - I totally get that it's unhealthy. It's the "thin" thing that flipped my soapbox switch...

The yogurt is very common. People who don't read labels (and there are _lots_ of them) think all yogurt is a healthy snack. I used to buy the crappy stuff, just because it was cheap. Unfortunately, it's also the only stuff dd likes, by and large. *sigh*


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

I also had to have to make a rule about no outside food in my home daycare. I had one parent that frequently would show up with boxes of donuts, a dozen cupcakes, etc., to be shared by the TWO toddlers in my home. It was just too much. My agency came out with a requirement that we have to post our mealplans so I wrote the parents a memo and blamed it on that so not to single anyone out. I also said that if they did want to bring a treat for a special day, like a birthday, to let me know in advance and we could work it out - because one cupcake on one day isn't going to kill a kid, but every day is too much.

I don't think that occasional treats are a bad thing, but I do think that parents should, for the most part, get to be the one giving the treats. If I feed the kids healthy whole foods all day and then they go out for ice cream with Dad it is all part of a balanced diet... but if they had crap all day it becomes too much. So I rarely serve junk-type food, not because I turn my nose up at it, but because I want to save all of the treat-giving opportunities for the parents. If that makes sense.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
She's the only one I watch, but yeah, my kids were wanting some of it too.


I actually implemented the "no outside food--just fruit" rule when I was only watching one child. In order to get around the whole "could you stop bringing food because I think what you feed your kids is total crap" judgment, what I said was that if she didn't mind, I wanted to start making one meal for everyone. I explained, "You know--the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence! Your daughter wants my son's lunch, my son wants your daughter's lunch, mealtimes have become one huge meltdown between the two of them! I can hardly stand it and I would love to give them both the same thing and be done with it!" The mom was actually TOTALLY relieved because apparently she hated trying to pack food and so it was a huge burden off her shoulders. As I added more and more kids I just kept up the rule.

Maybe something like that would work for you. HTH.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

doesn't sound horrible to me. in with all those carbs was protien, a couple servings of veggies, whole grains, calcium, vitamins and minerals, etc. all things considered not to shabby. granted it is a lot of sugar but I don't know what is normal for a days supply of sugar/carbs. those numbers you are looking at are not nessecarily table sugar. alot of them are just carbs. you need carbs . . . .maybe not that many but still. granted i think juice is junk food and yogurt has way too much sugar in it but my kids eat a ton of yogurt anyway. and my guess is that the baby did not eat the whole can of speghetti-os . . . whatever, it doesn't sound that bad to me.

when I did daycare I had a "no outside food except milk" rule. it was just easier to make one meal for everyone.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Well, yes, there is a particular reason. It's because we eat a "very good diet", and would never be referred to as thin. I know size isn't everything, but I also know, from my own research and work on my own weight loss, that size does affect your health, and extra weight is hard on your heart. So i guess I mentioned it to point out that even though they eat crap, they seem to be much better at appropriate portions than me.

I think, especially in little kids, what you eat doesn't have much bearing on how big you are. My daughter is under weight, her bmi is 10.8, it needs to be it needs to be a 13.5 to get to the 3rd%, which involves her gaining 8 1/2lbs with out getting any taller, and in the past 18 months she has lost 1lb and gained nothing...so yea, not going to happen. Anyway, she eats a TON, like today for breakfast she had 3 eggs, with about 6 stalks of asparagus, ham, and swiss cheese in them...and was still hungry, so she had a (whole milk organic...) yogurt...then for lunch she had two pita sandwiches with chicken, hummus, cucumbers, sprouts, carrots, and goat cheese. For snacks she has had 3 peanut butter back to nature sandwich cookies (like oreos, but organic and peanut butter instead of chocolate), an entire bowl full of steamed broccoli, and 3 slices of watermelon...it's 3:30pm right now...we are going to a botanic garden fundraiser tonight that is all you can eat, and you can bet she will eat more than dh and I combined....

I honestly think the only way I could make her gain weight is to replace her water with koolaid or pop or something that contains vast amounts of HFCS and literally chain her to her bed with a game boy (which she has one of, she just doesn't sit still to play it)...it's just metabolism at this point.


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## SaraLe6 (Mar 4, 2009)

I know it probably makes you cringe to see choices you wouldn't make in your DC charge's lunchbox.. but I agree with those that said you need to be in agreement with the parents on what to feed their child. If they want you to feed them spaghettios, then you need to honor their wishes. If they have said they don't care if you feed the spaghettios or pick something else out of your own cupboards, then fine. I say this because when DS1 was in daycare, I packed lunches for him. Whole fruit, whole veggies, complex carbs, nothing processed. Every single one of my daycare providers (I've had 4) rolled their eyes at me and one even asked me NOT to bring things like whole fruit, that it would be easier for her if I brought something like those little cheese and cracker trays with the highly, highly processed used-to-be-cheese food.







: He either got a banana or apple slices, it's not like she had to do anything special with it- he even peeled his own banana! I would come pick him up and he fruit would be untouched, his milk would be untouched, and he'd be eating cheese crackers (those kraft mac and cheese ones) and drinking juice!







This seriously ticked me off for many reasons:

1. She is my employee. I pay her to do her job the way I say, not to make judgements on what my kids should be eating,
2. I didn't want him eating junk food or drinking juice, even 100% juice, and
3. She had been told not to give him ANYTHING except what I brought.

Of course, even worse than this was the daycare provider before her, who had also been told NOTHING except what I send, but I later found out was throwing away what I sent and feeding him McDonald's, Taco Bell, soda, and COFFEE!


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I think if you plan on not feeding what is sent with the child - you have to let the parents know. Have to. Have to. I'd be very upset if someone I paid to watch my children made parental decisions for me (and yes, diet is a parental decision and is not up to daycare provider, unless agreed upon upfront and the parent is aware of your policies, at which point they were allowed to make that decision).

What you describe doesn't sound very healthy, but it is certainly not outrageous (besides, I agree that the baby wouldn't have eaten the whole thing anyway).

I worked as a nanny, and I wouldn't have dreamt of substituting food for what *I* felt was right, without discussing it with parents.

Parents get a say in decisions like that. Heck, people often are frustrated at how grandparents disregard parental choices, but a babysitter? If a nanny/babysitter can't live with it, they have to make sure the parents know that.

I apologize if I sound harsh, but I feel very strongly on the side of the parents here. It's simply not my choice to make for any other parent. I can advise, make suggestions, and make rules in my own house, but I also have to be 100% open about my food policies with parents that entrust their child to me, AND pay my salary, yk?

I hope you can find an amiable way to resolve this for the future.


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## dearmama22 (Oct 20, 2008)

Believe it or not, most people think that's healthy. And it is compared to some who send their kids with chips and twinkies!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Those are kind of stealthy bad foods, for people who don't read labels or look into these things. I'd be more upset that yogurt is made in such a junky way when it should be a healthy food than I'd be upset with her.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

I have to say, I would be completely livid if I found out my childcare person wasn't feeding my child the food I sent with him every day. I understand your frustration, and it would frustrate me too, but you work for them and need to honor their parenting decisions.

I like the previous suggestions of asking if you can just make one food for everyone. That might solve the problem without making you look too judgmental.

And SarahLe6, that is outrageous! I would have been beside myself.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
doesn't sound horrible to me. in with all those carbs was protien, a couple servings of veggies, whole grains, calcium, vitamins and minerals, etc. all things considered not to shabby. granted it is a lot of sugar but I don't know what is normal for a days supply of sugar/carbs. those numbers you are looking at are not nessecarily table sugar. alot of them are just carbs. you need carbs . . . .maybe not that many but still. granted i think juice is junk food and yogurt has way too much sugar in it but my kids eat a ton of yogurt anyway. and my guess is that the baby did not eat the whole can of speghetti-os . . . whatever, it doesn't sound that bad to me.

when I did daycare I had a "no outside food except milk" rule. it was just easier to make one meal for everyone.

Well, she has eaten an entire can of Spaghetti-Os before. Where are the whole grains? The veggies? Do you mean in the tomato sauce?

To the other pps, I should have reworded my OP. The mother actually doesn't care what I feed her. I have already broached the subject of feeding her, graciously, I told her it would be easier, etc. She said that would be fine. She still keeps sending food, or maybe the dad didn't get the memo and he's the one packing it. I think I will just not even open the lunchbox in the future, except to get out the milk bottle.

Maybe I'm totally off base about that causing her discomfort, maybe she is just a high needs baby. But I've been watching her for six months now, and she's had about 2 poops that could be considered soft. The rest come out in little hard kernels. I just think she's uncomfortable and feels yucky, and that TOO MUCH SUGAR in her diet contributes. I guess I'm just on my soapbox, here!


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Maybe she's not getting enough fiber or maybe the dairy is making her constipated. Too much sugar generally gives people the runs if anything. Breastmilk, btw, has half the calories from carbs, primarily from lactose, a form of sugar. Kids need carbs.


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## Scullery (Oct 23, 2008)

Chronic constipation is more of an issue of dehydration and too much dairy/protein, not sugar.

I would suggest feeding her what her parents send, they have the ultimate say.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

I agree that constipation is due more to lack of water. The juice would actually be GOOD for that.
IMO, a child care provider is there to provide a service, not to judge. Any CP that went against my wishes would be without my busines$. (LOL)
That meal doesn't sound so bad at all ( it could be a lot worse..) but if you want to provide more whole foods and the parent is okay with it then do it!
It can only help.


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## schoolmom07 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I do not see anything on the list that sounds bad (besides the can of Spaghetti O's, yuck.) Most people would not even bat an eye over this meal.

Really, yogurt, Cheerios, white grape juice and milk all sound like good choices, although hey would not be the ones I would make. Even the Spaghetti O's are "kid food".

Honestly, I would be really pissed to be judged like this by my kid's care giver.

I thought I was going to see a post about a tot being feed a lunch of a jelly sandwich, Cheeto's, Oreos, a few fruit roll ups and some Kool Aide for lunch. Maybe even a Pixie Stick for a late afternoon snack. (I used to work in a daycare, I've seen all kinds of things packed in a toddler's lunch box.)

I figure with all there is out there that is REALLY important that I would have to say AMEN to what you stated! Sometimes, it gets really hard to pack those extremely nutritious meals or you might not have the money for groceries that week other than what you already have in the cabinet. People really need to consider someone else's circumstances before they jump aboard to criticize. An occasional meal such as this is not going to hurt the child. Ever try to wash off that junk they put on the fruits and veggies? Wouldn't it be more productive to complain to the powers that be that we don 't need to have pesticides and waxes on our natural foods?


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

I don't do daycare and my children don't go to daycare currently but agreeing with the others who said they'd be upset if i sent food with my child and it wasn't served. Moms get judged on so many things and honestly nothing on that list sounded horrible. And I think someone said something about it being portable. There have been times my dc have reminded me of a field trip the morning of and that they need to pack a lunch and i have run to the store and bought a luncheable because we are out of bread or meat or their water bottle is lost or whatever LOL. All the things you listed look really portable and things that could get grabbed from the cabinet quickly.


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## leaveit2beeker (Jun 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Is what the parents of my 16 month old daycare charge want me to feed her. At least. I didn't figure the sugar in her whole milk or her Cheerios. But they sent her with an adult-size thing of Yoplait (27 grams), a white grape juice box (22 grams), and a can of Spaghetti-Os (11 grams)!

GACK, spaghetti-o's! I'd suggest to them kindly that it is no problem for you to boil a few ww penne or macaroni and add some marinara sauce to it. Because it really wouldn't be. I could not in good conscience feed that sh** to a child. And excuse my language, but that's exactly what I think it is.

Grams of sugar aside, think of the artifical colorings and everything else...Hopefully this is not regular occurence and they were just really strapped for time that morning??


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calee* 
This would not be a big deal nor shocking to me. I have seen much, much worse.

Really.. I have seen things that blow my mind... I can't imagine what these parents are thinking...

Then, I remember back to my daughter's early years, and I did SO much worse. At least those choices SOUND like good choices, they aren't really.. but, if you don't know much about nutrition, it sounds really healthy.

I have a daycare, and the stuff that these kids eat are a LOT worse than that. I have kids come in with chocolate donuts every morning. I had one boy that would eat little debbie cakes and a dr pepper every morning before coming to my house. His dad just never knew what the big deal was.


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

Well, from reading the whole thread it appears that this mom is OK with you giving other food to her child, but at first your post made me livid.

I am a WOHM and when DD was 10-11 months old I sent pumped breastmilk to daycare with her, along with healthy food (whole wheat pasta, broccoli, sweet potato, organic baby yogurt, etc.). She had a care provider in her room at daycare that would contstantly tell me to put formula in her breastmilk because she seemed hungry (I would just bring in more milk, none of the other providers agreed btw). Well, one day I pick her up and this provider tells me that the older kids were having pizza and she gave some to DD. I was livid. I expressed my upset, and she chastized me by saying "She is almost a year old mama." DH talked to the director who spoke the the teacher, but there were still two other times when she did something similar. Thankfully dd finally moved up to the next room where the providers respected us more. I think that this reminds me of the idea that if you put your children in daycare you are letting others raise them. I hate that belief, because I am the parent, daycare are contracted employees of mine, and they need to do what I tell them. These decisions belong to the parent, even if you don't agree with them. You are not raising these children, you are just providing care when their parents cannot. I think if a care provider cannot respect the wishes of the parents they really have no business providing childcare.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

I would have been livid.

I will let my daughter (almost 3) pick out her entire lunch sometimes. If we're going on a picnic/adventure, I do put in stuff she might not normally have. Normally, we eat very healthfully - her favorite snack is fresh fruit, and she gets about 4oz of juice (to which I add water) about twice a week. Most of the time, she drinks plain water, or water with a squirt of lemon. But, if we're going out and need to pack a lunch? Yep. I will sometimes toss a juice box in. And she was on a kick where she loved those danimal drinks (no HFCS or artificial colors, btw). I can almost guarantee that if she were in day care once a week, for one meal and a snack or two, I'd sure as heck make that the "convenience food" day, and you would probably be appalled at what you saw. What you wouldn't know is that the other 95% of the time, she's getting homemade, mostly organic meals cooked from scratch.

I am a nanny, and I have great leeway/control over what I give the kids during the day. But if mom or dad said to me, "Please feed/pack them X" (which they have before, for a variety of reasons, from wanting to use up leftovers, to one having a spacer in his mouth), there's no way I'd think of saying "Hmph! I'll just give them what *I* think is best". I am their employee. They hired me. If I don't like that, I'd best find another employer.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you for the constructive replies. I am going to institute a my-food-only diet at my house starting next week.

I understand the mothers that are upset, because I have WOHM as well, and I know how it is to find out that your instructions haven't been followed. As I stated, though, she doesn't care what I feed her. This is her regular diet. Like nextcommercial said, she probably doesn't see what the big deal is. I also am quite aware of their circumstances, as we've discussed them at length before and she even shared her budget with me. I'm also pretty sure she eats like this all the time. And I know sugar can cause diarrhea, but when my kids eat food like that, they inevitably get stopped up.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
I would have been livid.

I will let my daughter (almost 3) pick out her entire lunch sometimes. If we're going on a picnic/adventure, I do put in stuff she might not normally have. Normally, we eat very healthfully - her favorite snack is fresh fruit, and she gets about 4oz of juice (to which I add water) about twice a week. Most of the time, she drinks plain water, or water with a squirt of lemon. But, if we're going out and need to pack a lunch? Yep. I will sometimes toss a juice box in. And she was on a kick where she loved those danimal drinks (no HFCS or artificial colors, btw). I can almost guarantee that if she were in day care once a week, for one meal and a snack or two, I'd sure as heck make that the "convenience food" day, and you would probably be appalled at what you saw. What you wouldn't know is that the other 95% of the time, she's getting homemade, mostly organic meals cooked from scratch.

I am a nanny, and I have great leeway/control over what I give the kids during the day. But if mom or dad said to me, "Please feed/pack them X" (which they have before, for a variety of reasons, from wanting to use up leftovers, to one having a spacer in his mouth), there's no way I'd think of saying "Hmph! I'll just give them what *I* think is best". I am their employee. They hired me. If I don't like that, I'd best find another employer.

So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.

I don't think it's fair to compare CIO and a juice box. One breaks your heart and forces you to watch a baby cry, another is just something you decided is not good enough for this child, despite her parents obviously being okay with it. And it IS their decision to make as far as food goes.

If original post is about food, then the food judgements are what they are - the foods are not horrible, even if there are healthier options out there. It is NOT up to a babysitter to make food choices for the baby. It is crossing the line.

If there was another thread on CIO, I'd certainly voice my opinion on that accordingly. As it is, I think you are comparing apples and oranges and I am starting to think you and this family is not a good fit. But you have to be honest with them about it, instead of doing things your way.

If their money is good enough for you to be paid with, their instructions have to be followed when you can, and discussed when you can't. Just my humble opinion.









EDIT: I understand that the parents are okay with the food options, I'm simply replying to the tone of the first post, and explaining that view that it is up to parents to make these decisions ultimately, not the babysitter.


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## Oonah (Jul 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.

I think I would have told her to find another daycare.

I think the "your food only" policy is the best route....sounds ideal for everyone involved.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.


I made things very clear in the contract for the parents before we started. I did not see myself as their employee doing their bidding during the day. we were a team and we did things the way we did for the benifit of everyone in the house. it wasn't just about them or their child. they knew what I would do for discipline (and what i wouldn't), what I would feed their child, (and what I wouldn't) what we would do for activities, what their child needed to be wearing, what they needed to bring, etc if they did not like it they were free to take their kids, their money and their demands elsewhere. however I would never lie or lead a parent to believe I was doing something other than what they thought. and one of my rules was kids over 12 months ate the house food and brought their own milk. no outside food. I also requested that kids eat whole natrual foods before they came (the last thing i needed was a bunch of toddlers hopped on sugar and artificial colors or a kid who is crabby because they did not get breakfast.) of course I had no control over this.


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## Pinkalicious (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm sorry but you have *no right* to dictate what a parent chooses to feed their child. If they're providing *you* with food, then feed the child what they've provided. That is your job and what you get paid for. It's their child ... let them feed that child as they see fit. If you don't like it, then you have choices - either tell the parents that you can no longer provide child care for them or tell them that food is now included and be sure to include a monthly menu of what you'll be serving so the parents are aware. However, if you choose to do the latter, you need to give those parents at least 2 weeks notice if you plan on increasing your fees. They may opt to look for different child care services.

If a school can provide a month-long lunch menu, then that should be what you do as well. Don't like that? Then, too bad. Parents should know what to expect in advance. That is part of your job.

BTW - if I were this parent and saw this on a message board, you would no longer be my client.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.

My last sentence in the post you quoted by me states "If I didn't like that, I'd find another employer".

That's my stance. If I could not follow the parent's instructions, I would not be employed by them. Simple as that.


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## Brigio (May 18, 2008)

To OP- I would look at the lunch the same way! I think people on here are being a bit judgmental of the original poster......


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Well, I have sent my kids to daycare before, and I think you have to assume that you're going to be judged. I think this is how they eat all the time. They are all very thin, though.

That kind of irritates me as well.

My kids don't have the BEST 100% organic/veggies diet...and I really don't mind. Sometimes I feed them **GASP** spaghetti o's and JUICE and regular YOGURT and CEREAL! With COWS MILK!!!! I know, call CPS please...obviously I'm not fit to be a mother









My DS is 42 inches tall and 34lbs.

It's called genetics.

You don't even want to KNOW about my husbands (my DIABETIC SINCE 13 months husband) diet as a child, diet soda, oreos, popcicles, kook-aid (albeit sugar-free) cream of wheat (with milk and sugar added), etc etc etc and he's skinny as a rail.

I would think nothing of that diet, it's not like she's sending kool-aid in the baby bottle and sugar cereal or the latest techna-color Dora the Explorer! Yogurt or something, all of that is reasonably healthy. And actually on WIC's recommended list of 'snacky foods' for kids.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:

So if the mom gave you instructions to let the LO CIO, would you? This mom did give me those instructions.
Well, that's part of the deal when you sign on to take care of someone else's child - you have to deal with someone else's way of childcare.

Either you can tell the parents to find other care or get out of the business. But you are never, never, going to have a situation in which the daycare child's parent always does things exactly the way that you would or has no opinion about the way you care for their child.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I would hope that if I needed a CP they would be upfront with me and tell me no they won't feed my child what I have asked them to, they will CIO, they won't cloth diaper, etc etc. That way I would know whether or not to take my child elsewhere.

I think you need to be upfront with the parents, OP. Tell them you don't feel comfortable feeding their child what they bring or CIO. As so many have already said on this thread it is not your place to undermine their parenting. Think of if you were in their shoes and found out your CP was going against your wishes and feeding your child something other than what you set out, letting them CIO, etc.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I think that the idea that parents get to totally dictate what the care provider does is silly. What if the parents wanted them to spank the child, or withhold meals for naughty behavior, or do somrthing that would compromise the quality of care for the other kids? If you leave your kids, sure, you can expect certian things to be followed, but not all. Partents should leave kids with someone they think has some common sense, can think through a situation and take sensible action, who likes kids and has a kind heart.

As far as the details, it's just best to be upfront. Caregivers can tell parents how they run the household or daycare, parents say what is important to them, and they come to an agreement.

As far as the OP goes, asking the parents if they mind giving the home food is not offensive in any way I can see, and since they agree, what's the problem? And you might ask the mom about the hard poo, that you wonder if it is making her cranky. There might be a reason that has already been identified, or the parents might actually be trying to figure it out, and might be quite happy to have you sock the fruit to her. Or maybe they never thought about it. I think reporting you observations to the parents is actually an important part of care with a baby.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

My DD wasn't in a daycare at that age but many here would have been shocked at the foods we gave her they were packed with carbs sugar. I feed dannon yogurts mabe nutbutter sandwhiches by spreading butter or cocnut oild on the bread then the nut butter and the like sliced bannanas or even honey in the middle. I gave MAC N cheese with whole milk and extra cheese while i did try my best to avoid the HFCS we gave a lot of carbs and DD still nursed... Why? cause she was a FTT baby and she despertly needed the huge amount of carbs with out it shes lost massive amounts of weight suer fast and would fall in comas. We also gave protein and her servings were small because she jsut didn't eat much but some days yea she would pack it in.
Now in your case this menu doesn't sound medical but more one of convience but its still not your place to decide. Honestly I'd also be miffed if a person "agreed" to CIO but then decided not to. I'd rather a center just be upfront and honest ABC daycare will not honor CIO requests and has a no outside food except fruits veggies breast milk and formula policy. ect We also will not spank deny food ect if you don't agree to these terms find another place









Deanna


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I think that the idea that parents get to totally dictate what the care provider does is silly. What if the parents wanted them to spank the child, or withhold meals for naughty behavior, or do somrthing that would compromise the quality of care for the other kids? If you leave your kids, sure, you can expect certian things to be followed, but not all. Partents should leave kids with someone they think has some common sense, can think through a situation and take sensible action, who likes kids and has a kind heart.

As far as the details, it's just best to be upfront. Caregivers can tell parents how they run the household or daycare, parents say what is important to them, and they come to an agreement.

As far as the OP goes, asking the parents if they mind giving the home food is not offensive in any way I can see, and since they agree, what's the problem? And you might ask the mom about the hard poo, that you wonder if it is making her cranky. There might be a reason that has already been identified, or the parents might actually be trying to figure it out, and might be quite happy to have you sock the fruit to her. Or maybe they never thought about it. I think reporting you observations to the parents is actually an important part of care with a baby.

Thank you. I agree completely with this. I also think I may have been unclear. When the mother first told me that she wanted me to let her CIO, I let her know I was unwilling to do that, and we worked out that she could be laid down with a bottle, which has worked very well since. I know there are some issues with this, but since it's only a couple of times a week, I think we both thought it would be fine.

Anyway, I've brought up the constipation before and I'll have to do it again. I don't know that it will make much difference.


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## BunniMummi (Jan 28, 2005)

Not saying it's the case, but constipation can be a much bigger issue than just diet. DS1 has had constipation issues pretty much his entire life, and he was bm only for a full year. He is highly sensitive and in my opinion the feeling was scary and uncomfortable for him even as a baby and he avoided going when he could. This was when his movements were still liquid and it only got worse when solids were added.

While his diet has an impact it is more mental than anything and has been since he was younger than the girl you are watching.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I think that the idea that parents get to totally dictate what the care provider does is silly.

I think it all should be taken within reason. Asking a babysitter to feed lunch a parent provided is very far from "totally dictating what the care provider does". It's basic care instructions. If I am unwilling to follow those very basic instructions, then I should be honest about it with the parent, and should neither accept the job nor the payment.

At least that's how I see babysitter-parent relationship.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I think it all should be taken within reason. Asking a babysitter to feed lunch a parent provided is very far from "totally dictating what the care provider does". It's basic care instructions. If I am unwilling to follow those very basic instructions, then I should be honest about it with the parent, and should neither accept the job nor the payment.

At least that's how I see babysitter-parent relationship.

I agree.

Is it really "silly" of us to expect our children are put in the type of care we deem acceptable? These are our children. I don't find that silly at all.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Uhm....guys...?

Humph. I think the OP was just venting. You know...sharing the incredulous feeling you feel when you see someone doing something you find appalling.

I don't think she was looking for judgement of her own opinion, or to be told how to "fix" the situation. She was just looking to commiserate with people she thought would "get it".

Sounds like she's on-board with the mama of the little girl, and IS talking with her, and NOT doing anything underhanded.

So, uhm...let's back off, k?

Anyway, OP...I totally feel that way when I see similar things, too. I just want to say, "Honey, look...can I show you something?" But, most people don't really read the labels (you know, beyond the one that shows the percentages of stuff) and they don't KNOW what they are eating. Many people are appalled when I gently point out an ingredient in something they think is healthy. Like store-bought whipping cream, for example, contains polysorbate 80. Cream!?! Or like the bottle of syrup I saw the other day...on the front in proclaimed in large letters "NO HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP". The very first ingredient listed on the back was corn syrup... You know people are going to buy that thinking it's healthier...

Drives me crazy.

We're traveling right now and I feel like I can't get my kids a healthy meal. And I just realized why I feel lousy...preservatives.

Whatever.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaraLe6* 
I say this because when DS1 was in daycare, I packed lunches for him. Whole fruit, whole veggies, complex carbs, nothing processed. Every single one of my daycare providers (I've had 4) rolled their eyes at me and one even asked me NOT to bring things like whole fruit, that it would be easier for her if I brought something like those little cheese and cracker trays with the highly, highly processed used-to-be-cheese food.







: He either got a banana or apple slices, it's not like she had to do anything special with it- he even peeled his own banana! I would come pick him up and he fruit would be untouched, his milk would be untouched, and he'd be eating cheese crackers (those kraft mac and cheese ones) and drinking juice!







This seriously ticked me off for many reasons:

1. She is my employee. I pay her to do her job the way I say, not to make judgements on what my kids should be eating,
2. I didn't want him eating junk food or drinking juice, even 100% juice, and
3. She had been told not to give him ANYTHING except what I brought.

Of course, even worse than this was the daycare provider before her, who had also been told NOTHING except what I send, but I later found out was throwing away what I sent and feeding him McDonald's, Taco Bell, soda, and COFFEE!





































OMG! I would have been so mad. I can't even imagine the fit I would have thrown over those situations had it been me.
I'm mad even reading about it. WOW!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I see both sides of this. On the one hand, the OP has children that would not be fed this kind of food and knows the benefits of a healthier diet. On the other hand, this working mother seems to be operating within her sphere of understanding and ability.

OP - if you can talk to this woman, suggest she supplement your pay with an extra couple of bucks a day in exchange for preparing a JOINTLY-DECIDED meal for her LO. I doubt it has anything to do with her not caring, but perhaps only that she has not, for some reason, learned more about nutrition and that she has a lot less time than you do.

She would probably appreciate not having to take the time to even put together the pre-packaged stuff she is sending.

While I often see people with very healthy diets have issues with their kids getting less healthy stuff, I don't think I've ever heard of a parent who feeds junk food to their kids complaining about their kids getting healthier whole foods.

(Also wanted to note that my dd has food sensitivities and has itchy eczema if she eats anything that is not ALL NATURAL, so I would have a hissy fit if she were served processed food behind my back. The key is communication. If I haven't communicated this issue well enough, then it's my fault. If someone knows to not give her something and does so anyway because it is "inconvenient" or something they don't think is "right", then it is their fault.)


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

There are a few different issues that are going around in this thread. There are a lot of reasons why a parent may want a child to eat specific foods, but I don't think any of them are at play in the OP's situation. This child has no allergies, no specific food requirements, and the mom doesn't care of the OP serves different food.

As a general rule, I would think that a parent who sends whole food and their kid get served spaghetti-os would be more upset than a parent who sends spaghetti-os and gets served whole foods instead. I think spaghetti-os are sent out of convenience not because the parent really wants to make sure that it is what the kid eats, no matter what.

OP, I get what you are trying to do here, and I am sorry that you are being attacked because of it. Your original post did come accross as a little more judgemental than I think you wanted to be, but I feel like your heart is in the right place and you do care about your charge.

I also just want to say that as a home daycare provider I am NOT anyone's "employee". I provide a service. I work with parents as a team, but they can't dictate how I am going to run my daycare. I am VERY upfront about things like food, discipline, television, etc. etc. and if parents don't agree my agency has 15 other providers, one of whom will probably be a better fit.

I can't do everything six different ways for six different kids in my home. I need to have one set of standards, and then get families that agree with them.

It is different if you have a nanny, because that person IS actually an employee. But my families don't pay my payroll taxes, they don't pay me vacation, they don't provide me benefits, they pay me for a SERVICE I provide. If they don't agree with the service they are welcome (and encouraged, actually) to take their business elsewhere.

I get that emotions are running high in this thread, but the attitude of a childcare provider being an employee and should therefore be dictated to is really rubbing me the wrong way.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Hey OP, I completely agree with your concern. My fervent hope is that food is simply daycare day food because it's quick and easy and the rest of the time your charge is gorging herself on fresh whole food.

Yoplait has as many carbs as a can of pop. A daily diet like the one you describe would lead to health problems down the road. That kind of eating leads to high blood sugar which leads to diabetes eventually. It is not benign on a regular basis.

V


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
There are a few different issues that are going around in this thread. There are a lot of reasons why a parent may want a child to eat specific foods, but I don't think any of them are at play in the OP's situation. This child has no allergies, no specific food requirements, and the mom doesn't care of the OP serves different food.

As a general rule, I would think that a parent who sends whole food and their kid get served spaghetti-os would be more upset than a parent who sends spaghetti-os and gets served whole foods instead. I think spaghetti-os are sent out of convenience not because the parent really wants to make sure that it is what the kid eats, no matter what.

OP, I get what you are trying to do here, and I am sorry that you are being attacked because of it. Your original post did come accross as a little more judgemental than I think you wanted to be, but I feel like your heart is in the right place and you do care about your charge.

I also just want to say that as a home daycare provider I am NOT anyone's "employee". I provide a service. I work with parents as a team, but they can't dictate how I am going to run my daycare. I am VERY upfront about things like food, discipline, television, etc. etc. and if parents don't agree my agency has 15 other providers, one of whom will probably be a better fit.

I can't do everything six different ways for six different kids in my home. I need to have one set of standards, and then get families that agree with them.

It is different if you have a nanny, because that person IS actually an employee. But my families don't pay my payroll taxes, they don't pay me vacation, they don't provide me benefits, they pay me for a SERVICE I provide. If they don't agree with the service they are welcome (and encouraged, actually) to take their business elsewhere.

I get that emotions are running high in this thread, but the attitude of a childcare provider being an employee and should therefore be dictated to is really rubbing me the wrong way.











I am a home daycare provider in the same agency system as just lily, I think. I am very clear that I am nobody's employee...I run my own business and provide a service. If parents genuinely want their kids to eat Spaghettios then I would not be the provider for them...I can't even stand the smell of that stuff and would gag opening the can... my own children are in my home daycare too, and I wouldn't want them exposed to and perhaps trying that kind of "food", either.

It is so very important that parents using daycare don't feel judged by providers, I agree, but I also know what it's like to sometimes feel genuinely frustrated and concerned about the well-being of a child in my care. For me, this has usually been over child guidance issues, as I'm AP and many clients are not and I'll leave it at that.

Maybe Parenting just isn't the best place for a childcare provider to talk about frustrations like this -- maybe an early childhood educators forum -- I lurk on REGGIO-L and I'd imagine a lot of constructive advice on such a forum for the OP's problem, there. Or the Childcare Providers Tribe on MDC?

Here, most providers provide food, except for actual baby food and formula or ebm, and agency providers do have to be accountable for keeping records of menus to show that they are providing genuinely healthy food. It would be so hard to deal with a system where 6 kids arrived every day with six different lunches...hard for the parents to pack them, too. I have had a child with severe food allergies in my care and worked with the parents, who supplied some alternatives which I prepared -- I tried to serve everyone the same thing, still.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you for the posts of understanding.

Aubergine, that's a great suggestion. I will post on the Childcare Provider's Tribe next time.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Thank you. I agree completely with this. I also think I may have been unclear. When the mother first told me that she wanted me to let her CIO, I let her know I was unwilling to do that, and we worked out that she could be laid down with a bottle, which has worked very well since. I know there are some issues with this, but since it's only a couple of times a week, I think we both thought it would be fine.

I definitely wouldn't be ok with laying a child down with a bottle. That goes against medical and dental recommendations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
I get that emotions are running high in this thread, but the attitude of a childcare provider being an employee and should therefore be dictated to is really rubbing me the wrong way.

It sounds like your situation is different. You are a licensed (I'm assuming) provider who works with an agency. The OP sounds more like she's providing unlicensed childcare (which isn't a bad thing, but a different animal.)

OP, if you are in the US, you can always tell the parents that you are going to follow CACFP (Child and Adult Care Food Program) guidelines. Licensed programs in my state (licensed home and center-based) have to follow them whether the children bring their own food or it's provided by the program.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
Maybe Parenting just isn't the best place for a childcare provider to talk about frustrations like this -- maybe an early childhood educators forum -- I lurk on REGGIO-L and I'd imagine a lot of constructive advice on such a forum for the OP's problem, there. Or the Childcare Providers Tribe on MDC?

Totally OT, but I'm a member of the Reggio list serv, too. You should stop lurking and post. We're a friendly group (most of the time.)


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Polliwog* 
Totally OT, but I'm a member of the Reggio list serv, too. You should stop lurking and post. We're a friendly group (most of the time.)

It's a wonderful group!

Never found an online community that brings such professionalism and intelligence to bear on issues of early childhood education etc.

I'm sure I'll participate as time goes on. Still getting a sense of who's who and what's what and where my home daycare issues might fit in.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
It's a wonderful group!

Never found an online community that brings such professionalism and intelligence to bear on issues of early childhood education etc.

I'm sure I'll participate as time goes on. Still getting a sense of who's who and what's what and where my home daycare issues might fit in.

There's actually several family child care providers on the list. There used be a spin-off Reggio-inspired FCC yahoo group but it hasn't been active in a few years. So jump in whenever you feel like it. It is a deep-thinking group. Much more so than any of my other professional groups.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Polliwog* 
I definitely wouldn't be ok with laying a child down with a bottle. That goes against medical and dental recommendations.

Sometimes sleeping w/ a bottle is the lesser of two evils though...my baby has bottlenursed to sleep since i've had him (so, since three weeks of age), and continues to do so. I think he is almost "weaned" from bottlenursing and so would probably we ok with discontinuing the nighttime bottle (or drinking it before getting in bed)...and with my foster daughter, when she was here, i put her to bed with a bottle, to comfort her. It seemed to be what she was used to, and i think attachment/comfort trumps whatever med/dental cautions one might take. I would rather see a baby lay down with a bottle than CIO, if those are the only two available options (though if the parent/provider wished, they could try other things as well, including providing a bottle of water.)

That might be another thread though.....









Katherine


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