# Getting desperate, and devastated: seriously tempted by the Pearls



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

i've been meaning to post here for a loooong time, but i'm usually too weary to hash it all out. i'm starting to weep as i type this...

i have 2 boys: 18mo, and newly 4. the 4 yr old has been extremely defiant for about a year now. (examples to follow.)

i used to really dislike time-outs. never used them. i felt that a natural consequence to unacceptable behavior was to remove myself, rather than remove him: since i'm the main "prize," and since, in life, we don't choose to hang around folks who treat us badly, i'd give myself the time out ("I'm feeling really sad and angry that you hit me, so i'm going to go in my room for some private time. we'll talk when i come out.") this usually left him crying and pounding at my door, at which time i'd come out, talk about my feelings, and-usually-get a hug from him. but this never actually changed his behavior (which tells me it wasn't effective).

but now, with 2 to take care of, and the behavior worsening, i've resorted to putting him in his room for anywhere from 5-30 minutes (depending on the crime). screaming rudely in my face (e.g. "yes you WILL take me to the park today") gets 5, intentionally hitting his brother on the head with a tennis racket gets 30 (and a removal of racket privilages).

this type of punishment has gone on for months and months, but his behavior doesn't seem to be improving. this suggests to me that the consequence isn't effective. in fact, when i ask him if putting him in his room will teach him not to do such-and-such, he typically says "i will just keep on doing it anyway."

let me give you some examples of the type of behavior i am dealing with daily:

1. i go into a room (where he is) to get something i need. he doesn't want me in the room.
him: yells (in a nasty tone) "go away mama!" (he daily tells us to get out of rooms, to go away, to leave him alone, to not even look at him.)
me: "i'm sorry, i didn't realize you wanted privacy. but please listen to the sound of your voice when you talk to me. i don't talk to you that way."
him: in a grunting voice (i.e. mad but not yelling) "go away."
if i don't leave (perhaps i need to do something in that room), he will hit or kick me. sometimes i get fed up with being treated like this, and i put him in his room, telling him, "i don't speak to you that way; you may not speak to me that way."

2. we are in the living room. he throws a ball. it comes close to hitting someone (me, or brother)
me: (in a firm, serious voice) "we do not throw balls in the house."
him: yelling " don't talk to me that way!"
i put him in his room (the voice in my head telling me, "how dare he speak to his mother that way"), and remove the ball for the rest of the day.

3. we are at the park. his bike helmet is in the sandbox.
Me: ezra, please take your helmet out of the sandbox, so it doesn't get filled up with sand. put it with your bike.
he ignores me, and just stands by his helmet.
me: ezra, please put your helmet away.
he ignores me, and just stands by his helmet. a friend of his picks up the helmet, and hangs it on his handlebars. ezra is furious. he picks up a large stick and hurls it at his friend. luckily, it misses her.
me: i grab his hand and tell him (probably yelling), "we are leaving the park right now. we do NOT throw sticks at our friends. she was trying to help you. we are going home NOW!"
him: screams NO NO etc.
as i hastily pack our things, he punches me in the back. upon arriving home, he stays in his room for 40 minutes (essential on this occasion, b/c i feel very, very close to "switching" him, and this lets me calm down).

this is how it is, most days. i'm at the end of my rope. i'm embarrassed to have such an ill-behaved child, especially since i've espoused GD to my friends (their reply: uh...does GD seem to be working for you?)

i had never even heard of the Pearls until the brouhaha on mdc occured. so i read their first book (found an online text). what i liked: the switching isn't done in anger (currently, the times i've spanked him *weep* it was b/c i lost control and was furious. i was so ashamed of myself.) it is an expected, consistent response to unacceptable behavior. and it gives results. pain is a good teacher.

i can't even believe i just said that. worse: i can't believe it seems reasonable to me.

what else can i do? i am yelled at, ordered around, hit, and kicked.

i am a SAHM who spends all day with my boys. he gets an enormous amount of attention (tho certainly, a toddler's need for attention is more consuming than a black hole). he is often joyful. he has an excellent relationship with his baby brother (very healthy. very normal. very affectionate.) his rages are much worse at his papa (he hits and kicks him frequently). he is reducing me to tears. i can't live this way. i love him so much. why is he so full of rage? so unyielding? so demanding? so defiant? not a single one of his friends behaves this way, and my mom friends are horrified to learn that he hits and kicks us.

help. me.

if you've come this far, thank you for listening. i'll stop for now, so i can listen to you...


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## septmommy (Dec 21, 2003)

nak

I am definitly no expert, but here is what I'm getting from your post.

You are both very angry right now. Before his behavior changes his anger needs to be addressed and resolved. I would go completely the opposite route that the pearls suggest. I would put my own anger on the shelf and spend a week or two making my home a positive place. I would respond to his negativity with love & compassion. If he says "go away" I'd say okay, but can I have a hug first. If he says no that is okay. If he throws a ball I would pick it up and say "great idea, lets go outside and play catch" I would spend those weeks making his favorite meals and engaging in his favorite things. It really sounds to me like he just needs the power struggle to end and at his age he's not capable of being the one to end it.


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

Anthony Wolf "The Secret to Parenting"
Mary Sheedy Kurcinka "Kids Parents and Power Struggles"

Seriously life changing joy-filled results books.


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## cookclanmama (Jun 23, 2005)

Giving him everything he wants, as pp recommended, seems counter-productive to me. I would think it would teach him that his behavior would get hime the results he wanted, & when he realizes that, then what would be the point in stopping? If it works, then he'll keep doing it. When he is older that will cause problems, because he'll have learned that negative behaviors will earn him positive results, & I think that is a mistake. I agree that he is in a power struggle that he isn't capable of ending, but I don't think giving into his demands is the best way to bring about that end. I think he is reaching out, & that he wants you to take more control of his life. I think he is unsure of his place & so he pushes you as hard as he can to see how much power he really has. That probably frightens him, so he pushes you harder to make you push back. Does that make any sense?

All that being said though, his agression & defiance is worrisome to me. It really doesn't seem like normal barely 4 year old behavior. If he is being as sweet & joyful part of the time as you've said, & then so violent & angry part of the time, I would be concerned about Oppositional Defiant Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder. I would have his behavior analyzed by a proffesional if for nothing more but your own peace of mind.


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## KimberMama (Mar 8, 2002)

I may be way off base, but whenever I hear about/observe this kind of behavior I wonder about a few things. First off, I would look at hidden allergies (milk, eggs, soy, corn, wheat), food additives (artifical colors and preservatives), and sugar consumption. Second, I would look at total amount of sleep; at his age he needs 11-12 hours total, either all at night or sleep between night and naps.

Finally, I would look at where he is getting the disrespectful behavior from. Children are big immitators. Once my son told me to get out of his room and I realized that I had said the same thing to him. So now we've talked about nicer ways to request privacy. Like the previous poster, I would try to be as positive as possible for a couple of weeks. Don't engage in the battle.

As far as violence goes, I have two things to say. First off, I had a friend with a child who was hyperactive, angry, and defiant. She turned to violence against her child (hence the fact that we are no longer friends), and it made things worse. The worse things got the more violent she and her husband got. She never once tried any of my suggestions regarding diet and sleep.

Finally, I was an abused child. Yes, if you "switch" your children they will eventually be beaten down and comply with your every request. My brothers and I were extremely obedient children. But there is a price to pay. Both of my brothers have struggled with drug and alcohol addiction (and I mean bad stuff, like heroin). I have battled depression for more than 20 years now. We did not survive childhood with our souls intact.

I am thinking peaceful thoughts for you...

Kimberly


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm so sorry you're having a hard time. Your post is really sounds like a wonderful example of why punishing really doesn't work. It's just getting worse and worse....

Instead of focusing on his behavior, I wonder what you can do to focus on your relationship with him. What can you do to build it up? What do you like about him? When does he make you laugh? When are you filled with that incredible feeling of blessedness/luck that you won the baby lottery and got this lump of joy? When is he just the most amazing person on the planet?

If you can focus on those times, and build on them, could you bring back the love and joy you used to feel with each other?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

You both sound so frustrated. Here is what I would do (coming from years of teaching....)

First - most important- do not let him get to you. If that fails- do not let him KNOW that he can get to you. Practice responding in a detached way.

Next- decide what's important. Safety is important. Safety issues (throwing, hitting, etc) should be dealt with. Other issues often can be let to slide until things are calmer.

Last- respond calmly and give choices- you may pick up your helmet or I will help you pick up your helmet. Follow through. Respond to his actions and words- let him know you hear him- I hear that you are angry and don't want me around right now, but mama has work to do in this room, as a family we share space.

Good luck!

-Angela


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Parenting with Love and Logic, great book!

Sounds like your ds is getting lots of attention for his negative behavior. Remember to look for all the positive behhavior he does during the day and give him lots of attention for all the good things he does. I wouldn't go so far as to say "ignore" his bad behavior. Try to ignore what you can and keep telling him how you feel.

I do this with my boy who can show some of the behaviors you have described but certainly not on that level. I tend to tell him what has made me unhappy, put him in a chair facing a wall to "think" about what he did...He's allowed to remove himself when he's ready to talk and say sorry, etc...It works most of the time, but sometimes he has to go back to the thinking chair, that's ok. I don't yell, I stay positive and then when we've disucussed everything we forget about it and have lots of hugs and kisses, positive feedback/activities, etc.

not perfect, but works for us...BTW he's 3.

The PP sounds like she's read love and logic! Choices are part of the program, I give lots of appropriate choices.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Think of it this way--you are a loving mama with a loving family, and your ds is acting out in a miserable way. My dd can act in very, very similar ways--at times she will act that way daily. You are definitely teaching appropriate behavior, but he is not behaving appropriately. Why not? Because you aren't punishing him enough? I don't believe that at all.

So now you have to find out why he is acting that way. Kimbermama's advice about food sensitivities is great--we've seen much improvement by eliminating certain foods. You also might look into sensory issues--maybe he is just on sensory overload every day, and that is a miserable way to feel.

Chfriend's suggestion about focusing on the relationship is golden. Instead of timeouts, maybe have some sort of "time in"? Meaning, instead of separating the two of you, maybe pulling him closer when he is acting negatively? Like, "You know what? I can see you are feeling grumpy. I'd love to snuggle on the couch with some books. Would you like that?" You can always address the negative behavior after he is feeling snuggled and loved--and, ime, *much* more receptive to a conversation about appropriate behavior.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *septmommy*
I would put my own anger on the shelf and spend a week or two making my home a positive place. I would respond to his negativity with love & compassion. If he says "go away" I'd say okay, but can I have a hug first. If he says no that is okay. If he throws a ball I would pick it up and say "great idea, lets go outside and play catch" I would spend those weeks making his favorite meals and engaging in his favorite things.


Quote:

Giving him everything he wants, as pp recommended
I don't see that she did recommend that.

Quote:

1. i go into a room (where he is) to get something i need. he doesn't want me in the room.
him: yells (in a nasty tone) "go away mama!" (he daily tells us to get out of rooms, to go away, to leave him alone, to not even look at him.)
me: "i'm sorry, i didn't realize you wanted privacy. but please listen to the sound of your voice when you talk to me. *i don't talk to you that way*."
him: in a grunting voice (i.e. mad but not yelling) "go away."
if i don't leave (perhaps i need to do something in that room), he will hit or kick me. sometimes i get fed up with being treated like this, and i put him in his room, telling him, "i don't speak to you that way; you may not speak to me that way."

2. we are in the living room. he throws a ball. it comes close to hitting someone (me, or brother)
me: (in a firm, serious voice) "we do not throw balls in the house."
*him: yelling " don't talk to me that way!"*
i put him in his room (the voice in my head telling me, "how dare he speak to his mother that way"), and remove the ball for the rest of the day.
Do you see what I'm trying to point out here?
Maybe HE doesn't like the way you were talking to him. Your ds seems very sensitive to how he is talked to.

In situation 1, perhaps say "ok, I am leaving anyways as soon as I get x". He's just telling you that he needs some time alone. I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. He does need to be taught how to say that more respectfully, but I don't think that is the time to do it. kwim? If you need to stay in the room to do something, tell him you will leave when you are done. Tell him that you understand that he wants to be alone, and that you will hurry up. I also am getting the feeling that he is being made to have time-outs when you disapprove of his behavior, but you are not allowing him the space to set his own time-out, when he needs it. He may not understand this, and maybe resent it.
Hitting and kicking you are obviously not acceptable. (trying to think of something to say to it)

In situation 2, perhaps say (in a respectful voice) "when you throw balls in the house, it can hit someone and hurt them" then give him some options- things he can throw, he can roll the ball, you can go outside and throw the ball, or something else he might like to do. If he throws the ball again, take it away for the time being "I see you can't stop throwing the ball. I'm going to help you" (not as a punishment, but to take away the temptation to throw it, and to keep someone from getting hurt). Hurting others is not something that I would tolerate either!

In situation 3, that sounds like a control issue. You were certainly right in leaving the park, imo. Like I said, hurting others (or trying to) is not acceptable. But I'd maybe say to tell him in a calm tone of voice that now you are leaving- and leave it at that.
Also, instead of giving a command (which can sound threatening, and it seems like your ds is sensitive to this) maybe say "If you leave your helmet there, it will get all sandy." You could tell him that either he can move it, or you will.

As far as what the pp said, I agree. Try to focus the next couple of weeks on changing the attitude in your house. Try to work with him. Don't look at it as a "you vs. him" thing. Try to see it as teamwork- so instead of telling him not to throw the ball and expecting him to comply immediately, you make it easy for him to do the right thing- throw it outside, roll it, whatever. kwim? Find a solution that makes you both happy. Remember that his wants, feelings and opinions are important too!

Also, if the pp's suggestion to see a specialist makes sense to you, then you should do it- if only for your peace of mind.

I'm sure there's a lot more I could say, but ds wants me, so....

Good luck! And please please please give gd a shot.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Oh, just remembered a book I've seen recommended...."The Explosive Child" Some people have found it really helpful.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

lots of wonderful ideas here! thanks so much!

i have nearly all the books mentioned being held for me at the library!

*sigh* he is such a perfectionist, and such a control freak (which he probably gets from me...or from dh...haha). it seems crazy for me to be tiptoeing on eggshells around him (like hurrying out of a room, when he orders me out), but that is often what it takes to control his anger.

indeed, he is very sensitive to the way i speak to him. i try to control it, but i am a loud, boisterous person in general, and my spirited way of asking him to do things, or of suggesting different ways he could handle things, seems offensive to him. he will often say (in a mean voice), "just stop talking to me." recently, after an episode of "banishment," i tried to discuss his losing control of his temper, and the second i opened my mouth to begin, he said (in his angry, halting, tone) "don't. talk. to me. about. control!" ( i might have laughed had i not been so discouraged)

i've just got to stay calm and detached. but it is soooooooo hard for me. must stay calm and detached... (but there is always that voice in my head telling me "you can't let your 4 yr old order you around, and sass you." it feels so wrong to ignore it. but since my current methods are doing nothing...)

we are a pretty crunchy family in terms of diet, but i'll have to pay attention to sugar consumption (i've never been stingy with "healthier" kinds of sugar).

he could really still use a daytime nap, but absolutely refuses to take one. so we use the baby's nap time as our special play time.

re: oppositional defiant disorder. i have that page of my DSM IV dog eared. ha ha! i don't think i'd have him evaluated though. my thinking is that a diagnosis wouldn't change anything. i wouldn't medicate a 4yr old, and a doc. would likely push behavior mod, and sticker charts. not my thing.

the frustrating thing (well, one of the many) is that i'm a former kindergarten teacher, and i always prided myself on my conflict resolution skills! ha! they aint doing nothing these days! then again, 4 is much younger than 6.

while typing my original post, he had been banished to my room (baby sleeping in the other bedroom). when i finished, i went to check on him, and he was wrapped up inside a big shirt or mine, sound asleep. i wept! then i gave him lots of kisses and sniffs (i love to sniff my boys). this was a luxury, b.c he normally is very hands off, and, since turning 3 or so, doesn't like to be touched. he was pretty cheerful when he woke, and i told him how sorry i was that we had had a rough morning.

sometimes it is actually hard for me to believe my friends when they talk about their children's compliance. if a friend tells her son to go to his room, he runs there with his tail between his legs. if i tell ezra to go to his room, he usually screams "NO." if a friend's daughter sasses her mother, and the mother responds with the classic first-middle-last name reproof, the girl is silenced. if i try that with ezra, he demands, "no, don't talk to me that way." he's very into "don't talk to me that way" and "yes you will do such and such" which i obviously said in anger, and he appropriated for his own use.

thank you! i'll be sure to have dh read this when he comes home...


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline is great.

The Pearls may bring obedience, but the price would be too great. I think if you follow Easy to Love, your friends will all be impressed with GD.

Sorry things have been so rough.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
what i liked: the switching isn't done in anger (currently, the times i've spanked him *weep* it was b/c i lost control and was furious. i was so ashamed of myself.) it is an expected, consistent response to unacceptable behavior. and it gives results. pain is a good teacher.

I don't believe any of this is true. My parents would have said they didn't spank in anger and my parents would have been lying. I know myself when I have rough days and want to spank (which I never have done thank goodness) it is only when I'm angry. I don't want to spank to teach routine behavior when I'm in a good mood. I can't even imagine wanting to hit my child when I'm in a good mood. So yeah maybe you could be disspassionate about it once or twice but honestly I think spankers usually do spank when they're angry.

I don't have any advice to give as I'm working with the same issues myself but I feel your pain.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimberMama*
I may be way off base, but whenever I hear about/observe this kind of behavior I wonder about a few things. First off, I would look at hidden allergies (milk, eggs, soy, corn, wheat), food additives (artifical colors and preservatives), and sugar consumption.

I totally agree with this - my 2.5 yr old was hyperactive, sleepless, constantly tantruming, violent, and out of control until we took some advice to try a completely casein-free (dairy protein free) diet. It took 8 weeks to see the change but he is a completely different child. We seriously couldn't believe it was the same boy. Twice he has gotten dairy accidentally and had four days of insanity and violent behavior, so we know it's the dairy causing it. Before we got him off dairy, we had been told many times that he needed tough discipline and sleep training. But we didn't have a discipline problem at all, we had a dietary problem. After removing dairy, I found a doctor who identified five other allergic foods in his diet, and they are gone too. Now that that is solved, and his mind can function normally, gentle discipline works wonderfully with him. For some it is dairy, others gluten, some both, some additives/preservatives/flavors/etc, some sugar, some corn, and it can take some doing to figure it out for you child, but when you figure out the problem, it can change your life. Dairy and/or gluten are IMO good places to start. It can take a couple of months to get them out of their systems, so be sure to give any elimination you try enough time to work before drawing any conclusions.

There is a book that might be helpful, called "Is This Your Child" by Doris Rapp, MD.

Linda


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
sometimes it is actually hard for me to believe my friends when they talk about their children's compliance. if a friend tells her son to go to his room, he runs there with his tail between his legs. if i tell ezra to go to his room, he usually screams "NO." if a friend's daughter sasses her mother, and the mother responds with the classic first-middle-last name reproof, the girl is silenced.

Take heart. Many kids who are this compliant are this way because they are scared to be anything but. Obviously not true for every compliant child, but if your friends are not GD'ers, then fear may be part of it. And some kids are more sensitive to love withdraw (which is what time out is). You might take a moment to be grateful that your children do not fear you. They may not do what you say at the moment you want, but they are not worried that you are going to swat them.


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## spin462002 (May 7, 2005)

Hi Francy, I have a different view on your son's behaviour. He is obviously a normal, intelligent child who lacks direction and is confused about his place in your home and family structure. I would suggest this is entirely down to your fear of him and lack of confidence in asserting that you are the adult and you are responsible for his behaviour. I think you are obviously and understandably exasperated and worn out by his behaviour and your inability to control it.

You can turn this whole situation around with some simple techniques and a whole lot of confidence blended with indifference. I will explain.

At the moment he is being rewarded, one way or another, for all his bad behaviour. I will give examples of what I suggest would be the appropriate response in the examples you have given. Many people here will not agree with me, but I know it works.

1. i go into a room (where he is) to get something i need. he doesn't want me in the room.
him: yells (in a nasty tone) "go away mama!" (he daily tells us to get out of rooms, to go away, to leave him alone, to not even look at him.)
Lynn: I would get down and get eye contact with him. I would lower my voice and say seriously "xxxxx you will not speak to me like that. You will not tell your momma what to do, that is naughty" If he argues or repeats his statement, I would "broken record" my initial statement, in a low tone, with eye contact. If he becomes violent or defiant, I would remove him from whatever he is doing for no longer than two minutes. I would not require apologies or have any further discussion on the topic later. On the next similar occasion,(which is inevitable until you have conquered this technique) I would repeat the process, with appropriate low tone of voice, eye contact and indifference (and removal if necessary.) Within a short period of time, you will notice his behaviour changing, but you must be consistent and not get (visibly) emotionally involved in the process.You can go away and cry later, but you must be strong in front of him.

2. we are in the living room. he throws a ball. it comes close to hitting someone (me, or brother)
Lynn: I have always had a "no balls inside" rule, as well as a "no running inside" rule as well as a "no yelling inside" rule. If any children want to do those things, they go outside. Period. No exceptions. These rules have kept me sane and given my children (and now grandchildren) secure boundaries so we can all enjoy each other and be safe inside the house.

3. we are at the park. his bike helmet is in the sandbox.
Lynn: I would get the helmet and put it with his bike and in future quietly insist it stays with the bike when he goes to play. He is four years old and not capable of seeing the issue with the helmet. A wise man once said "choose your battles well". In other words, don't have unnecessary conflict.

Francy, from what you have written, your main concern is his lack of respect and the behaviour that accompanies it. Until you can at least act confident when you speak to him, that can't change. At the moment he thinks he is in charge and you are the only thing spoiling that for him. (and your husband)

I can tell you are a loving desperate mom who needs some help. He is a perfectly normal little boy who will be much more lovable once his behaviour is under control.

Maybe you could write yourself a list of unacceptable behaviour that you want to eradicate. This might include throwing things, hitting, speaking disrespectfully, being disobedient, and outright defiance etc. Be as specific as you can. Then your husband will know what the standard is too and can confidently deal with it. Time out is good but only for a short time.(two minutes is good) Putting a child in his room for his own safety for longer periods is wise but hopefully won't be necessary for much longer.

The most important tips, eye contact every time, lower the tone of your voice and try and sound very serious when admonishing him with as few words as possible, short time outs with no further comments, and repeat as necessary. Don't get emotionally involved and don't let him think for a moment that he is smarter or stronger or more powerful than his parents.

I do not believe he is overly sensitive or in need of medical help or allergic or lacking sleep. I can promise you he is perfectly normal, naughty and normal. (particularly intelligent and naughty actually)

Hang in there, you love him most and you can help him to see his place in your home and family. It is so important you are confident and consistent dealing with this and don't look for excuses for his behaviour. Things will improve as you gain confidence and respond appropriately.

He will be a happy well behaved little boy in no time at all! You can trust me on that! and there's no need to be embarrased by his behaviour, he's normal. some other children are just naturally more compliant and less challenging. That's inborn, not their parents good management! ; )

love
Lynn


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llp34*
I totally agree with this - my 2.5 yr old was hyperactive, sleepless, constantly tantruming, violent, and out of control until we took some advice to try a completely casein-free (dairy protein free) diet. It took 8 weeks to see the change but he is a completely different child. We seriously couldn't believe it was the same boy. Twice he has gotten dairy accidentally and had four days of insanity and violent behavior, so we know it's the dairy causing it.


honestly? really? wow! the possibility is so incredibly wonderful...but i dare not get my hopes up.

is there any explanation why an allergy could cause defiant behavior? about the brain chemistry involved?

he couldn't eat any dairy (except mine! haha! and even that caused problems) until he was out of diapers due to horrendous rashes from the protein. but behavior?....wow! i'm seriously tearing up at the possibility (but i tear up a lot these days).


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spin462002*
Hi Francy, I have a different view on your son's behaviour. He is obviously a normal, intelligent child who lacks direction and is confused about his place in your home and family structure.

Lynn: I would get down and get eye contact with him. I would lower my voice and say seriously "xxxxx you will not speak to me like that. You will not tell your momma what to do, that is naughty" If he argues or repeats his statement, I would "broken record" my initial statement, in a low tone, with eye contact. If he becomes violent or defiant, I would remove him from whatever he is doing for no longer than two minutes. I would not require apologies or have any further discussion on the topic later.


hmmmm. possibly, but i really don't think he lacks direction or is confused. that is, he is focused and determined. every minute, he has an agenda. he has a plan. and he is furious when the plan is thwarted. hence, if he is trying to, say, read a book, or build a tower, and i pass by, his concentration is interrupted, and fury follows: "go away mama! don't come in here!" or heaven forbid i LOOK at him when he is doing something (he's very self conscious). if he is trying to sound out a word, and he catches my eye, its "no! don't look at me! you're not supposed to see me!" i don't think he seems confused about his place. rather, he seems throughly pissed off that we are infringing upon his space!

in the "broken record" example, this is almost exactly the sort of thing i do over, and over, and over again (remember, i'm a kindergarten teacher, so that is precisely what i was trained to do). the difference tho, is that i definitely get emotional. it is incredibly difficult for me to be calm and detached.

usually when i do the whole eye-contact-serious-voice-i-am-the-mama thing (and i'm too close--in his face), he starts this truly bizarre screaming where he screams AHHHHHH (the short "a" sound), but loudly enough to make your hair prickle, and make his face turn red. (or he hits.) he is very self-conscious, and, i think, easily mortified. he wants the unpleasantness (the discipline) to cease b/c he can't stand the fact that he has screwed up.

lordy: that makes him sound rather nutty, doesn't it?

in so many ways he is normal and delightful. as long as we leave him alone. don't bug him. stay off his turf. don't look too closely. be available only when he wants us.

wait a minute: when did my 4 year old boy turn into a teenage girl?? i'm waiting for him to screech: "you just don't understand me!"

:LOL


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

is there any explanation why an allergy could cause defiant behavior? about the brain chemistry involved?
I could be wrong, but I believe it has a lot to do with the protiens "leaking" out of the gut and into the bloodstream. My 4 yo is affected by corn and ALL corn products whereas it is dairy and soy that do a number on my 2 yo.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Have you considered that removing yourself from him is really the same thing as sending him to time out? Both are a withdrawal of love and generally ineffective at getting kids to cooperate. I understand that there are times that every mother needs to separate herself every now and then when she's very upset, but using it as a consequence when your son does something you don't like is essentially the same thing as sending him to his room, because either way he is getting the message that when he does something you don't like, you withdraw your love. Rather than help him figure out what the problem is and what he can do better next time, you're leaving him on his own. Just the fact that he was pounding and beating on the door proves that he was *not* learning anything - he was too focused on getting you to come back into the room or let him in with you to think about how he could do better next time. So I know you said you didn't want to use time outs, but I think that you've really been using them all along, which has only contributed to your problem. It sounds like you already know why time outs are a bad idea and ineffective, so I won't go into all that. I think you just hadn't considered that what you were doing was essentially the same thing.
Also, 30 or 40 minutes alone is waaaayyyyy to long for a child that young - no matter what he did! Even people who encourage the regular use of time out give a maximum of one minute per each year of age.

And I have to disagree with the PP who said you should tell your son that certain behaviors are "naughty". Please don't do that to your child! We should never tell children they are being "bad", "naughty" or anything else like that. Children internalize those things and what they really hear is "YOU are naughty." Rather than telling him something he does is bad, explain why it isn't acceptable. Instead of, "Throwing the ball at your brother is naughty," I would say, "Throwing the ball at your brother could hurt him."

It looks like some of his behavior does stem from being ordered around, rather than given choices, such as, "Pick up your helmet" instead of, "Do you want to pick up your helmet or should I pick it up?" I know it's frustrating and he's "old enough" to pick it up himself, but he's still so little. It really wouldn't hurt anyone for you to offer him those two choices. Same thing with throwing the ball in the house - offer him other alternatives. If you just tell him to stop throwing the ball in the house, you haven't told him what he *can* do. Why not say, "You can't throw that ball in the house, but you can either throw that ball outside or throw this soft toy in the house"? Offering choices and responding to his need for attention is not in any way "giving him everything he wants" - it is giving him everything he *needs* at that moment. Children need choices and children need attention the most at the times when it is most difficult to want to give it to them. Someone here has a signature quote that says something like, "Children are most in need of loving attention when they act least deserving of it." That is sooo true! If he's talking rudely to you, maybe he feels like you aren't spending enough time with him and he's angry. Or maybe he feels that you talk to him that way, so he can do it to you. Judging from your post, it sounds like the latter is a definite possibility.


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
re: oppositional defiant disorder. i have that page of my DSM IV dog eared. ha ha! i don't think i'd have him evaluated though. my thinking is that a diagnosis wouldn't change anything. i wouldn't medicate a 4yr old, and a doc. would likely push behavior mod, and sticker charts. not my thing.


Not neccessarily. You may have to look much harder to find someone that will do more than behavior mod and sticker charts. But honestly most ODD is relationship based and the best thing to do is work with the parents on rebuilding that bond.

I think so many here have had such wonderful ideas. Does he do pretend play much where you can observe him? Look for themes, what are the actors doing? I know when dd is frustrated with me b/c perhaps I've said no to something (no she can't climb the bookshelf







) she will act it out in with her dolls. And anything can be a character...cars, dinosaurs, dolls, stuffed animals...

One other suggestion I would try is sometime when he is in the common area I would sit at a good distance from him on the ground and parallel play. Without being obvious, imitate his play to some degree. Gradually (over days and weeks) draw yourself closer and closer until your play is interacting with his.

Good for you for reaching out and asking for ideas! I'm so happy for you and your son that you didn't just give up and go for a more punitive strategy.

Take care of yourself too!
BBM


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## darlindeliasmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Another book recommendation: Living with the Active Alert Child byLinda Budd.
I love Kurcinka's books, as well as Barbara Coloroso; really helpful for me in trms of power struggles. My relationship with my mom was all about power struggles and so I really feel at risk of repeating the behavior. Those books have really helped.

But Budd's book talks about temperament in some kids...I have one, you have one, but not EVERYONE has one. And a lot of parenting advice that really works for other kids doesn't work with these. Time outs are a nightmare...even mommy time outs. I have learned that I have to do the "step back and take a deep breath" in the room, not try to go to another room to calm down.

Budd lists 11 traits, many of which are shared by the spirited child description that Kurcinka uses. But a central one is "controlling". That equates to perfectionism, to conflicts with adults (because the need to control is really a need to feel safe, and so these kids are DRIVEN to try to run the show...not a good idea when you're 4).

I highly recommend it. It is saving my sanity and giving me hope for looming adolescence, because I WILL have a teenage girl here!!

Anyway, hugs. I second the ideas about food sensitivities as well. IMO it is at age 4 that you begin to really see how a child's temperament differs from others. Maybe it will help if you can come to see how the intensely negative behaviors are partly the flipside of his intensely loving behaviors. Sounds like he's generally a good big brother...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Three books that helped me (would 'changed my life' be over- the- top? lol)

The Highly Sensitive Child
The Highly Sensitive Adult
When Your Child Drives You Crazy (ok, this is a little book chock full of gems, and maybe didn't change my life







But nice) by Eda LeShan (a past Motheing Living Treasure).


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## royaloakmi (Mar 2, 2005)

Ditto on the allergies thing. My younger brother was a raving lunatic child as a toddler. After trying everything, my mother removed all additives and artificial colors from his diet and he improved IMMENSELY. (Not perfect, but would respond to correction and discipline.)


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
is there any explanation why an allergy could cause defiant behavior? about the brain chemistry involved?

he couldn't eat any dairy (except mine! haha! and even that caused problems) until he was out of diapers due to horrendous rashes from the protein.

Aaaaaah, I would totally look into this ! Evan could never have dairy directly, because he got hives, diarrhea and rashes from it. But our ped told me it was ok for me to have dairy and nurse him, as long as he didn't have those symptoms, so I kept eating it. When we finally discontinued dairy at 20 months, the only dairy he was getting was from nursing, and from hidden dairy that was ingredients in processed foods - caseinates, whey etc. So he really was getting very little to start with, but for a child who can't handle dairy protein, a little is all it takes.

There are two different things going on with him with dairy. One is a true allergy that involves his immune system. Allergies alone can cause behavior changes - I don't know the chemistry of that, but Is This Your Child goes on and on about the mental effects of allergies.

The other thing that is going on with Evan is a problem that is proven to affect many autistic kids and schizophrenic people, and it probably affects people with ADHD and other problems as well, but no research has really been done on it except for autism and schizophrenia. In some people, the casein - the dairy protein - is not metabolized normally in the intestine. The protein is broken up incompletely into large peptides that end up acting like hallucinogenic drugs in their brain. This can also happen with gluten. These peptides are called opioid peptides, specifically casomorphins and gluteomorphins. These peptides show up in the urine of autistic kids. Many autistic kids show dramatic improvement on a gluten-free and casein-free diet, because they no longer have these brain-tripping substances running around in their system.

Evan is not autistic, but he was definitly starting to look suspicious for being on the autism spectrum at 18 months. We just tried eliminating dairy, not gluten, and the dairy took care of all his problems. Not just his sleep and behavior problems, but also his reflux, reactive airway, constant infections, and chronic diarrhea. When he has accidentally gotten dairy, it has only been tiny amounts, through me, and one time it was only caseinate that was in a packaged meat, and it was enough to set him off for four days.

If you want, I can pm you a bunch of links on casomorphins.

Linda


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Oh, mama, I am so sorry you're feeling this way. The other mamas have had wonderful ideas for you. I hope you can really read them and take the time to figure out what's best for your boys.

I just wanted to tell you that I don't think spanking done out of love is the answer. I was spanked a lot as a child. My childhood memories are mostly of the times I was spanked...wooden spoons were broken on my brother's butt...

My friend is going to be going to counseling soon. Her parents didn't follow the Pearls, but Dr. Dobson (who is suppose to be even *better* than the Pearls as far as discipline). She can't get over how her parents treated her...and it was all out of love.

I know you're going through a tough time. Is there anyone who practices GD in your area that you can get together with? Anyone who you can call and talk to? I'm just so sad for you. I think you've gotten some great advice so far. Know I'm thinking of you!

Shannon


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I don't see that she did recommend that.

Do you see what I'm trying to point out here?
Maybe HE doesn't like the way you were talking to him. Your ds seems very sensitive to how he is talked to.

In situation 1, perhaps say "ok, I am leaving anyways as soon as I get x". He's just telling you that he needs some time alone. I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. He does need to be taught how to say that more respectfully, but I don't think that is the time to do it. kwim? If you need to stay in the room to do something, tell him you will leave when you are done. Tell him that you understand that he wants to be alone, and that you will hurry up. I also am getting the feeling that he is being made to have time-outs when you disapprove of his behavior, but you are not allowing him the space to set his own time-out, when he needs it. He may not understand this, and maybe resent it.
Hitting and kicking you are obviously not acceptable. (trying to think of something to say to it)

In situation 2, perhaps say (in a respectful voice) "when you throw balls in the house, it can hit someone and hurt them" then give him some options- things he can throw, he can roll the ball, you can go outside and throw the ball, or something else he might like to do. If he throws the ball again, take it away for the time being "I see you can't stop throwing the ball. I'm going to help you" (not as a punishment, but to take away the temptation to throw it, and to keep someone from getting hurt). Hurting others is not something that I would tolerate either!

In situation 3, that sounds like a control issue. You were certainly right in leaving the park, imo. Like I said, hurting others (or trying to) is not acceptable. But I'd maybe say to tell him in a calm tone of voice that now you are leaving- and leave it at that.
Also, instead of giving a command (which can sound threatening, and it seems like your ds is sensitive to this) maybe say "If you leave your helmet there, it will get all sandy." You could tell him that either he can move it, or you will.

As far as what the pp said, I agree. Try to focus the next couple of weeks on changing the attitude in your house. Try to work with him. Don't look at it as a "you vs. him" thing. Try to see it as teamwork- so instead of telling him not to throw the ball and expecting him to comply immediately, you make it easy for him to do the right thing- throw it outside, roll it, whatever. kwim? Find a solution that makes you both happy. Remember that his wants, feelings and opinions are important too!

Also, if the pp's suggestion to see a specialist makes sense to you, then you should do it- if only for your peace of mind.

I'm sure there's a lot more I could say, but ds wants me, so....

Good luck! And please please please give gd a shot.


i agree completely with this post. YES YES YES!









i would also like to add something...your son is obviously a very intelligent and sensitive child. he's sensitive to personal relationships and where people stand with things. given that, i think that you need to sit down with him (during a very calm, loving moment) and talk to him about how you want to change things. tell him that you are not proud of the way you've been handling things, and that you're realizing that he just needs you to be there for him in a different way. then tell him the ways that you're going to change things. he obviously pays great attention to how you speak to him, so tell him that you're going to pay closer attention too. tell him how much you love him and you want him to feel happy and safe. it seems that he values his personal space...maybe you could make a fort for him in the room he seems to enjoy spending most of his time (where he kicks you out)...you can build him a safe space where he KNOWS he will never be disturbed by anybody. his room has been a punishment and it's away from the rest of the family, so it's not the best option for this "safe space" right now. maybe it will be eventually, but not right now...

in the moment, when you are having issues you can remind him of how you're doing things now. that you're both going to try to be more respectful of each other, and that includes him. you are a team and you love each other soooo much. there's nothing more important to either of you than feeling happy and safe in your home and with each other. he's very capable of understanding that, and i think he's been trying to tell you that in his little 4yo ways...it's just sometimes hard to hear when you're in the moment and sick of being hit and kicked and yelled at. anybody in your situation would be just as frustrated.

i don't know you, obviously, but i can tell from the way you've written about your situation that you are a VERY loving mommy with a VERY loving child. he just has no idea how to tell you what he wants, and i think that the PP's have been really helpful with trying to decipher it.

my only addition is that you explain your thought process before you start the new way of handling things. he's gonna get it immediately no matter what, because he's perceptive, but the WHOLE point is that you're a TEAM. he has to be a part of the huddle, kwim? you can ask him what you can do to help him feel happier and safer...ask him if there's a way you can be in the same room when he's upset or if you can have a code word or a phrase that is really really nice that he can say when he wants to get the message across that he needs alone time. explain to him that it is TOTALLY ok for him to want to be alone, and that you'll both come up with a phrase he can say when he needs that so he doesn't have to resort to "go away".

things will get better, mama...your son's a sweet angel with a slightly messed up filter. just change the filter and he's good to go!! LOL


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

oh and about the spanking in anger issue...i think it's a complex issue. i don't believe in spanking for my family...i think that you're right that there's a difference between spanking in anger and spanking in a controlled way, but it's not a huge one. in your situation, your frustration level and anger (understandable frustration and anger!!) have led you to consider spanking. even if you do it in a "loving and consistent" way, remember where the idea came from. it CAME from anger and frustration. you decided to start using it when you were frustrated and angry. even if you're not in the moment, the anger is there...it underlies your action every single time and your intelligent child will know that immediately. if you set out to control, your child will feel controlled. if you set out to share and work as a team, your child will feel that as well.

anyway...just wanted to point that out.







you're doing a fantastic job, mama...good luck!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
sometimes it is actually hard for me to believe my friends when they talk about their children's compliance. if a friend tells her son to go to his room, he runs there with his tail between his legs. if i tell ezra to go to his room, he usually screams "NO." if a friend's daughter sasses her mother, and the mother responds with the classic first-middle-last name reproof, the girl is silenced.

Well, yeah, but is it really worth it? I have had this problem, too, while visiting friends who are soooo much stricter and are spankers. There daughter IS compliant, but I just wonder at what price? That's what I like about Wolf, he talks about how you have to have different expectations for behavior if you don't want to scare your kids into following your every command.

Your ds sounds so bright and self-aware. I love the anecdote about him telling you you're not supposed to see him while he's sounding out words! I know it's probably frustrating for you, but it sounds like he's so smart and sensitive.

My dd isn't as old as your son, but one bit of advice from my mom has helped me out immensely. She suggested I don't make it about me. For example, you say you tell him you don't like it when he talks to you this way, or treats you that way. I was doing that, too, and then I started using less personal, more general statements, like, "We don't hit other people." or "It's unacceptable to talk that way. Please use more polite language. If you want someone to leave, try asking them politely, like this, 'Please leave me alone in here.'" I would say this in the most boring, serious tone possible.

Like the pp said, I definitely wouldn't classify behavior as naughty, and I wouldn't even say it makes you mad or sad. I'd remove all the emotion from the rules. I think it sounds like he's getting really drawn into a huge emotional drama, which is probably kind of thrilling for him, but also at the same time very anxiety-inducing, which makes it hard for him to get out of the cycle.

Don't give up! I can't imagine what a beating would do to the self-esteem of such a sweet, sensitive little guy.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llp34*
I totally agree with this - my 2.5 yr old was hyperactive, sleepless, constantly tantruming, violent, and out of control until we took some advice to try a completely casein-free (dairy protein free) diet. It took 8 weeks to see the change but he is a completely different child. We seriously couldn't believe it was the same boy. Twice he has gotten dairy accidentally and had four days of insanity and violent behavior, so we know it's the dairy causing it. Before we got him off dairy, we had been told many times that he needed tough discipline and sleep training. But we didn't have a discipline problem at all, we had a dietary problem. After removing dairy, I found a doctor who identified five other allergic foods in his diet, and they are gone too. Now that that is solved, and his mind can function normally, gentle discipline works wonderfully with him. For some it is dairy, others gluten, some both, some additives/preservatives/flavors/etc, some sugar, some corn, and it can take some doing to figure it out for you child, but when you figure out the problem, it can change your life. Dairy and/or gluten are IMO good places to start. It can take a couple of months to get them out of their systems, so be sure to give any elimination you try enough time to work before drawing any conclusions.

There is a book that might be helpful, called "Is This Your Child" by Doris Rapp, MD.

Linda

I second (3rd) the food allergy/diet concerns. It is not uncommon for children (and adults - myself included!) to react emotionally to the physical agitation cause by undiagnosed food allergies.

Beyond that - it sounds like you need a break. Is there anyone who can give you a break from your son on a weekly basis? Have you thought about nursery school? (If you are concerned about how he will behave @ school - in my experience as a teacher - most kids are much more well behaved @ school than @ home).

If you have some break time - it may be easier for you to detach yourself emotionally from his behavior (not detach from HIM - his behavior) so that you don't take it quite so personally. Your son is learning how to be a person. He is not acting out because he hates you, has an agenda,etc. I know you probably know that, but it is easy to forget and to mistakenly interpret children's behavior as having the same motivations that would cause that behavior in an adult - kwim?

Hope this helps - please don't hit your kid - that would only ensure continued anger and violence!


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama*
I could be wrong, but I believe it has a lot to do with the protiens "leaking" out of the gut and into the bloodstream.

Exactly right. When the gut flora is low (often from antibiotic use), small holes are created in the flora that allows proteins to pass from the intestines and into the blood stream. This starts an allergic reaction. Because the proteins can cross the blood/brain barrier, the result is sometimes behavioral.

I have a long, trying story about my son, but I will shorten it. Insane insomnia, hyperactivity, inability to control impulses--all were taken care of once we eliminated dairy to some degree. However, when we had him tested, he also was allergic to beef and wheat. Once those were gone, all was well. A few weeks after we started treatment he slept through the night for the first time, self-weaned and was potty-trained (all in about six days). He was 28 months old.

Is This Your Child? changed our lives.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I 4th or 5th or whatever the food-sensitivity issue. My son's behavior changed dramatically when we removed dairy from his diet. I could have written Linda's post about being worried about autism. After eliminating dairy my son became a completely different child. Food sensitivities are much more common than people realize.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

WOw - I have so much to say here but I'm going to work soon so I'll have to come back.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Quote:

re: oppositional defiant disorder. i have that page of my DSM IV dog eared. ha ha! i don't think i'd have him evaluated though. my thinking is that a diagnosis wouldn't change anything. i wouldn't medicate a 4yr old, and a doc. would likely push behavior mod, and sticker charts. not my thing.
I agree that its not neccesarily true.

My ds has O.D.D his symptoms started coming more noticable around 4 years of age. We fought for years with dr's for some sort of diagnosis. We were told to punish him more; punish him less - his behaviour has all due to our "bad" parenting. When we finally found someone who understood they gave us some info on how to communicate with children with odd. Wow, what a difference! No behaviour mod; no sticker charts. Just a different way to communicate with someone who has a different way of thinking.

It also helped to follow (loosely for us) the Feingold diet.

Good luck! I understand what you're going thru.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

reading intently. lots more to ask and say. but my all-consuming boys want me away from computer.

more soon...

thanks so much. you are saving us! horrified and ashamed that less than 24 hours ago i was contemplating which household objects would make an appropriate "pearlian" switch...


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

there's no need to be ashamed about that...truly...we all get frustrated and we all need reminders of how to handle situations. it's much easier to give advice to others than to figure out our own lives. LOL in reading this thread, i'm realizing many things that i want to change about how i respond to my Rowan.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

I believe there is something brewing in 4 year olds







. Can't put my finger on it, but my ds is almost 4 and acts out from time to time. Maybe growth spurts are hard on them and tires them out? Maybe their hormone levels are devolping/changing? Dunno. Ds has always been a really good listener, mindful, helpful and a great spirit to be around. I've noticed his behavior change since the weather turned hotter than hell, so we're not outside as much as normal. I've been working hard at my business and writing 2 columns for publication. And he has been rather "grouchy" and I think it's b/c I have been so busy that he's not getting enough mommy time. My bad. I've sat and made a schedule for my hours of operation and have made sure that we're still as active as we were before the heat, my biz and my column. (He sure did get my attention when he was being ugly) I think I was expecting him to entertain himself more than normal while I did my thing. Maybe your ds needs a little time w/just you and him? Have a picinic, go to a movie and lunch, take in a play.
Also, I really set limits w/sugar. Here's ds w/limited sugar







And here he is w/too much sugar














:








Hang in there, you've got some great advise on this thread and lots of support!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

i used to really dislike time-outs. never used them. i felt that a natural consequence to unacceptable behavior was to remove myself, rather than remove him: since i'm the main "prize," and since, in life, we don't choose to hang around folks who treat us badly, i'd give myself the time out ("I'm feeling really sad and angry that you hit me, so i'm going to go in my room for some private time. we'll talk when i come out.") this usually left him crying and pounding at my door, at which time i'd come out, talk about my feelings, and-usually-get a hug from him. but this never actually changed his behavior (which tells me it wasn't effective).
For sensitive kids, saying "I don't want to be around you right now" is the same as saying "I don't love you right now." You are essentially withdrawing love as a means to control his behvior. Withdrawl of love has become a powerful tool.

Quote:

1. i go into a room (where he is) to get something i need. he doesn't want me in the room.
him: yells (in a nasty tone) "go away mama!" (he daily tells us to get out of rooms, to go away, to leave him alone, to not even look at him.)
me: "i'm sorry, i didn't realize you wanted privacy. but please listen to the sound of your voice when you talk to me. i don't talk to you that way."
him: in a grunting voice (i.e. mad but not yelling) "go away."
if i don't leave (perhaps i need to do something in that room), he will hit or kick me. sometimes i get fed up with being treated like this, and i put him in his room, telling him, "i don't speak to you that way; you may not speak to me that way."
He has learned that withdrawl of love is a powerful tool, and he's using it.

Quote:

what else can i do? i am yelled at, ordered around, hit, and kicked.
Always speak to your child in a loving, respectful way. Both tone and words are very important here. Make a connection with him instead of disconnecting. When he yells at you, focus on his feelings ("you sound mad") instead of getting mad yourself. Try using humor or play to diffuse the situation, the anger and yelling will loose appeal if it is no longer so powerful. Never give orders unless you want a child who gives orders. Give reasons and choices. Lawrence Cohen says in Playful Parenting, _"I always assume that whatever the problem is, diisconnection either caused it or made it worse or made it harder to solve."_ Choose a meeting on the couch over a time-out.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

hi,

I just wanted to make it clear to you that it is *unacceptable* for YOU to be hit or kicked. I don't care if he is "just" four. He's obviously verbal and smart enough to ride a bike. He MUST stop hitting and kicking you and others immediately.

How does your DH respond when he hits and kicks him?

Have you considered giving him some chamomile to calm him down during his "rages?" There are non-alcoholic tinctures available or you could brew some tea (make sure it's not hot!). This is what I give to my kids when they hit, kick, or are in violent, mean moods. It almost always has a positive effect. I also give it to them when they have trouble sleeping.

I would back off a little on telling him about your feelings and expecting this to make a difference in his behavior. He obviously doesn't care about your feelings, or he wouldn't be hitting, kicking, and screaming at you to begin with. I would say something more along the lines of hitting/ kicking/ screaming being strictly against the rules. Involving your feelings in it probably just confuses him and makes him more irreverent.

I think spanking or hitting would just make it worse. He sounds like a tough kid and you would probably have to *really* hurt him







to get any effect. In fact you could be adding more fuel to his fire. It sounds like he would enjoy violent interaction.










editing to add: I also have two "Don't look at me, don't talk to me" types. The way we handle this is to tell them calmly that if they want privacy, they're to go to a different room where they can have all the privacy they want. Otherwise, it's considered a very rude thing to say, and isn't allowed. Of course the trick is "enforcing" the rule, but it is fine to have a rule where people in the household are not allowed to hiss and scream, "Don't look at me, don't talk to me!"


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
*sigh* he is such a perfectionist, and such a control freak (which he probably gets from me...or from dh...haha). it seems crazy for me to be tiptoeing on eggshells around him (like hurrying out of a room, when he orders me out), but that is often what it takes to control his anger.
(snip)
i've just got to stay calm and detached. but it is soooooooo hard for me. must stay calm and detached... (but there is always that voice in my head telling me "you can't let your 4 yr old order you around, and sass you." it feels so wrong to ignore it. but since my current methods are doing nothing...)

While I don't think its necessary for parents to "control" their kids, I certainly don't think that kids should "control" their parents.

In my suggestions to you, I didn't mean to imply that you should walk on eggshells to keep him happy.
My suggestion to leave the room when he asks you to was meant more in the spirit of respecting his desire to be alone. Not that he's ordering you and you need to keep him happy. kwim? He does have a right to be alone if he wants to, imo. Just calmly say "I didn't realize that it was so important to you to be alone right now" kwim? (I love that phrase!- it came from another mdc mama- Thanks!). Does that make sense? You are not letting him control you, you are listening to his needs/wants and responding accordingly.
Maybe that's what HE needs to be able to control his own anger.

And the ball thing, respect his desire to play a certain way. "Honor the impulse" as they say in Becoming The Parent You Want To Be. Just show him an appropriate way to do it. kwim?

As far as "sassing". Start by talking calmly and respectfully to him. Do that for a while, and then perhaps start requesting him to do the same. Simply ask him to- don't shame him, don't lecture him, just tell him that you prefer to be spoken to in a respectful way. Also, tell him that HE has a right to tell YOU when he doesn't feel that you are speaking to him respectfully.

Think of it this way- his opinions and feelings and wants are important too. So you just need to find ways to honor everyone's desires.

Hope that clarified it a bit!!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i would also like to add something...your son is obviously a very intelligent and sensitive child.
(snip)
my only addition is that you explain your thought process before you start the new way of handling things. he's gonna get it immediately no matter what, because he's perceptive, but the WHOLE point is that you're a TEAM. he has to be a part of the huddle, kwim? you can ask him what you can do to help him feel happier and safer...ask him if there's a way you can be in the same room when he's upset or if you can have a code word or a phrase that is really really nice that he can say when he wants to get the message across that he needs alone time. explain to him that it is TOTALLY ok for him to want to be alone, and that you'll both come up with a phrase he can say when he needs that so he doesn't have to resort to "go away".

ITA!! I especially love the idea of a code word! That is genius


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
Exactly right. When the gut flora is low (often from antibiotic use), small holes are created in the flora that allows proteins to pass from the intestines and into the blood stream. This starts an allergic reaction. Because the proteins can cross the blood/brain barrier, the result is sometimes behavioral.

I have a long, trying story about my son, but I will shorten it. Insane insomnia, hyperactivity, inability to control impulses--all were taken care of once we eliminated dairy to some degree. However, when we had him tested, he also was allergic to beef and wheat. Once those were gone, all was well. A few weeks after we started treatment he slept through the night for the first time, self-weaned and was potty-trained (all in about six days). He was 28 months old.

Is This Your Child? changed our lives.


Yes, Yes, Yes ! I believe my DS had a problem with dairy even before he was born - reading Is This Your Child, he had symptoms of an allergic baby even before birth, but I didn't realize it then. The combination of gut irritation from dairy, overuse of antibiotics from birth (first for his kidney defect, then constant infections), totally screwed up his gut. He is also allergic to chicken, eggs, beef, rice, and tomato. Chicken and rice were some of the first solids he had, and I had a lot of eggs and tomato. I really think he got his other allergies from his gut leaking proteins, as food allergies do not run in either side of our family. Our DAN doctor currently has me giving him probiotics, and a supplement to reduce the permeability of his gut to help prevent more leaking until it heals, which I understand could take a couple years.

Linda


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

It looks like some of his behavior does stem from being ordered around, rather than given choices, such as, "Pick up your helmet" instead of, "Do you want to pick up your helmet or should I pick it up?"
At four, he is old enough to clean up his own things. With my four year old ds, I will sometimes help him clean up if the amount of stuff is overwhelming (like his room gets sometimes), but for one item, he's the one doing it.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

You've gotten lots of good ideas (and so have I, as usual







). Just wondering, though, where is dad in all this? How does he communicate, discipline, punish? Are you doing the same things or different things?


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## Peepsqueak (Jul 5, 2005)

I would avoid the Pearl methods, because they cause more damage than benefits. I agree with previous posters that food consumption is a definate consideration. Monitoring good clean diet, and try to get him on an activity schedule and assure he gets in bed and gets plenty of sleep. This has a profound effect on children's temperment. I wouldn't want to probe to see if there is something wrong with the child all the time, but 4 year olds do have short attention spans, and often cannot express anger productively. It sounds like what I went through when my children were that age.

Set your boundaries, and also set up situations where the child does not fail, and give plenty of praise for handling themselves well. If they fall out or have a tantrum, simply walk away before losing a temper, or keep them from unsafe conditions (like head banging, etc.). A big bear hug sometimes works, and if the child is sensitive to touching or holding, simply work to calm the child down. Children this age have little reasoning and cognitive processes yet, so it will be a while before they will handle their emotions acceptably. However, patience and persistance pays off. Lashing back at them makes it worse or they are fearful. It will break down the trust in the child/parent relationship.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i just remembered something else that you mentioned somewhere along the line...at least i think you did...if not, just ignore me LOL but i think you said somewhere that he doesn't like to be touched too much. of course it could be something like sensory integration stuff where he gets overstimulated and that puts him in a foul mood where he'd want to be alone...but it also could be some other thing entirely and i think he's old enough for you to ask him about it. you know, say something about how you two used to hug and kiss each other and you notice that he doesn't like to so much these days. that might really give you some insight into what's going on in his head. kids make the symptoms of their feelings VERY obvious (tantrums, touch avoidance, crying, etc) but their actual feelings VERY obscure. at 4yo, though, and with a boy as intelligent as yours obviously is, you can probably get some really wonderful answers from him that will just be like a lightbulb over the whole situation. i wonder if you find some way to have some him-led touch (hugs, kisses) that might start to dissolve some of the negativity between the two of you. he just might not know how to ask for some good squeezes once in a while. and boy, won't it feel incredible to just gobble him up in your arms???


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

phathui5 wrote:At four, he is old enough to clean up his own things. With my four year old ds, I will sometimes help him clean up if the amount of stuff is overwhelming (like his room gets sometimes), but for one item, he's the one doing it.
Well, sometimes it's not worth a power struggle. If you say "pick up your socks." you're asking for a "no!" Why not state the rule, and then offer a choice-- "Dirty socks should go in the hamper or they'll never get washed. Can you pick them up now or after your done with the puzzle?" The minute you start digging your heels in over an issue ("He's the one doing it.") trouble's coming.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

I have had a few people ask for the links I have about casomorphins....I can't reply to some of the PM requests because some of the mailboxes are full.....so I'm posting my list here....it is short, but these are the ones I have found to be the most helpful and least confusing. One is a personal story, two are info from Great Plains lab, where they do the peptide tests, and two are articles or web postings from doctors who have done research into the opioid peptides issue. I hope these help those who have asked for them.

Linda

http://www.come-over.to/FAS/FASDnutrition.htm
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/gluten-casein.html
http://trainland.tripod.com/paul.htm
http://www.hypsos.ch/articles/reichelt.htm
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/food-allergy.html


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

What a beautiful thread! I'd like to believe this is the true intent of MDC.







Away w/the Pearls!









Teeny parallel here, but we're on our 3rd week of vacation and I just finished reading Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting. Awesome book and incredible timing. Just when I'm tired and irritable and want to snap at my kids, I remember what I just read and it helps redirect my (re)actions.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
My suggestion to leave the room when he asks you to was meant more in the spirit of respecting his desire to be alone. Not that he's ordering you and you need to keep him happy. kwim? He does have a right to be alone if he wants to, imo. Just calmly say "I didn't realize that it was so important to you to be alone right now" kwim? (I love that phrase!- it came from another mdc mama- Thanks!). Does that make sense? You are not letting him control you, you are listening to his needs/wants and responding accordingly.
Maybe that's what HE needs to be able to control his own anger.

Walking away when a child is in a shared common area and starts screaming "don't look at me don't talk to me" IS letting the child control you. This is an abusive child-- he is abusing his mom physically. Yes, he's "just" 4 but this will probably just get worse. If the child is in a shared common househould area, the child should be invited to leave the room for his privacy. For the parents to scurry away will only reinforce his being accustomed to being allowed to abuse others. Abuse is not right, whether from child to parent or parent to child.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Abuse is not right, whether from child to parent or parent to child.

If it's not OK for him to hit/kick the parent, why would it be acceptable for the parent to hit him? What would that teach?


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
sit down with him (during a very calm, loving moment) and talk to him about how you want to change things. tell him that you are not proud of the way you've been handling things, and that you're realizing that he just needs you to be there for him in a different way. then tell him the ways that you're going to change things.

i've tried to do this a few times in the past--tho old habits are hard to break, and i have obviously fallen back into my customary responses, and haven't made changes. will keep trying...

but one of his quirks is this odd self-consciousness (the whole "don't look at me" "you're not supposed to see me" "don't talk to me"). so, he's not usually willing to sit down and "discuss the situation." i will definitely keep trying tho, b/c i think it is important to verbalize one's intention to make changes (helps make them happen). i'll just have to do it in off-handed ways when he can pretend to ignore me.

i wish i knew what made him tick: whence the anger, self-consciousness, embarrassment. (i wish i knew what made me tick, b/c i am the same way.)

love the "code word" idea. that might work well, b/c he loves to invent his own language, and he would enjoy creating a word. (in fact, his inventing of language enables him to "save face" in moments of embarrassment. like, if he loses control and hits me, instead of saying he's sorry--which i know he is--he'll say "sop mop." that means "sorry mama.") odd, huh? alas, it doesn't work with his friends b/c they don't speak the language! and i'm only a novice in understanding ezraease.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
If it's not OK for him to hit/kick the parent, why would it be acceptable for the parent to hit him? What would that teach?

good grief, I never advocated hitting/ physical discipline!! In fact I said exactly the opposite if you read my posts.

I am just surprised that no one is worried/ has expressed concern that this mom is being assaulted by her son. It's totally unacceptable, four years old or not, and as he gets older and stronger will worsen.

I am writing as someone who was regularly hit by my son. I figured this was just part of being a mom until someone expressed shock and concern for me. After being bruised for 4 years the lightbulb went off that this was totally unacceptable and I shouldn't have to tolerate it, whether or not he was my son. I did not solve the problem with physcial discipline, and I know it never would have worked anyway.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
i've tried to do this a few times in the past--tho old habits are hard to break, and i have obviously fallen back into my customary responses, and haven't made changes. will keep trying...

I hear you there. I'll read a book and be all charged up and then after a week or so with no real improvement it can be hard to keep going.









Meowee can I ask what you did because I'm in a similar situation. Physical discipline is not an option of course but any advice is welcome.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

ITA about the diet issue, dd is allergic to mik and if she accidentally eats something with too much in it, she explodes, running in circles, screaming, muscle spasms, but never an angry rage or hitting.

ITA also that the violence toward his mother is concerning.... I hope the diet would help. A visit to the chiropractor always calmed dd down. She could be spazzing out in my arms and get adjusted and just fall asleep right ther eon the table.........it was amazing. She was so relieved....

Would herbs help the overstimulation issue? Valerian, St Johns Wort come to mind...

Lashing out in anger and spanking in rage is never a good solution, it just a. gives them attention, and they'll take negative attention if it's all they can get at the moment, b. and it just reinforces the idea that they have so many "warnings" from mom before she cracks. This is tough.

I am a proponent of consequences for their actions. IMHO, there is no way a parent can get any sort of behavior from their child (any desirable behavior that is) without some sort of consequence. At four years old, a child can understand " If you do not pick up your helmet off the ground, we will have to put it up for two days, and youcan't ride your bike with no helmet"

If he refused to pick it up, I would escort him home, and put it away and put the bike up. And he wouldn't get the bike/helmet back for two full days regardless of how much he whined or fussed. If a parent can't exact behavior from their child, what good is it to even talk to them or try to have everyday life? A problem that is bad at four is going to be 100X worse at 10. only then the kid is too big to deal with, and will seriously be able to hurt his mother.

Just MHO,


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
Meowee can I ask what you did because I'm in a similar situation. Physical discipline is not an option of course but any advice is welcome.

Well, this may sound simplistic, but first was to lay down the rule explicitly that hitting me was 100% against the rules and wrong. Frankly I had been tolerating his hitting and kicking me, figuring it was just a phase or there was nor real way to stop him with GD, and it didn't matter because he was a kid and I was an adult, or that it wasn't as bad to hit me as it was to hit his siblings. Occasionally I might try to tell him that it hurt or that it is not right, but never in a "dead serious" way. So step one was to adopt a zero tolerance attitude for letting myself be hit.

A first I did have to physically remove him from me and put him in his room (about 15 minutes). I do not advocate time outs and never used this for other reasons, or with any of my other children, but I saw this as an issue of my physical safety. If when he came out of his room, he hit again, back in his room he went. I did it immediately, no questions asked, no excuses.

I then started treating him with Chamomile (tincture or tea). When he became violent I would give him a half dropperful and sometimes had to give him 2 half dropperfuls but found that this did calm him down amazingly. For tea it was maybe 2 tablespoons at a time. I saw an immediate change in his behavior using the clear "no hitting me" regulation clearly stated, timeouts and chamomile, and by two months he had stopped hitting me, and has never hit me since.

I can virtually guarantee the OP that physical punishment will just make her DS worse. They are looking for a connection through violence, so if you react with violence, they are finally engaging you in the way they want.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I think I'm going to try the chamomile. Thanks for the suggestion. I also probably do tolerate the hitting sometimes so I will try to be better about that as well.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Walking away when a child is in a shared common area and starts screaming "don't look at me don't talk to me" IS letting the child control you.

Yes, he's "just" 4 but this will probably just get worse.

For the parents to scurry away will only reinforce his being accustomed to being allowed to abuse others. Abuse is not right, whether from child to parent or parent to child.


yes. this is exactly my worry in terms of stopping all punishments. what kind of boy might he grow up to be? how can i just sit back and let it happen?

however...none of my currents punishments have changed anything. they aren't working. sooooo i'm ready to scurry away. :LOL well, not exactly scurry, but try gd. my thinking is that if i try a whole different approach for a few months, and it doesn't work, i can still revert to my old rotten ways. no lasting harm done. a few months of "no punishments" isn't going to irrevocably form his character into an egotistical, selfish thug. so, at this point, i don't have much to lose.

but you have certainly voiced my worst fear! where is the line between being a gd'er, and advocating (by doing nothing) inappropriate behavior?


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
I am writing as someone who was regularly hit by my son. I figured this was just part of being a mom until someone expressed shock and concern for me. After being bruised for 4 years the lightbulb went off that this was totally unacceptable and I shouldn't have to tolerate it, whether or not he was my son. I did not solve the problem with physcial discipline, and I know it never would have worked anyway.


what worked??? help!

EDIT: i posted before i saw your reply. i have tried chamomile tea, but not for temper, just bedtime when i was trying to get him on an earlier schedule. i have also tried valerian. i used to make a big glass of juice in the morning, and called it our (because we shared it!) "grumpies begone juice." didn't seem to do much, but then i drank most of it.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
but you have certainly voiced my worst fear! where is the line between being a gd'er, and advocating (by doing nothing) inappropriate behavior?

Again I just wanted to say you are not alone. This is my worst fear too.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I am a proponent of consequences for their actions. IMHO, there is no way a parent can get any sort of behavior from their child (any desirable behavior that is) without some sort of consequence. At four years old, a child can understand " If you do not pick up your helmet off the ground, we will have to put it up for two days, and youcan't ride your bike with no helmet"


yesterday, i would have agreed with you completely (i still kinda do. shhhh.)

but my consequences have done nothing, and he has even verbally told me that he will continue the behavior regardless of the consequences.

like tonight: the ceiling fan was on, and he started throwing his "lovey" up in the air. i said "please stop. that could damage the fan, and it could damage littlebrownpuppy." he tossed it again. i said, "ezra, look at my face? [i put on a sad face] how does it look?" he tossed it AGAIN (BUT--not near the fan. a teeny step of progress.) normally, i would take it away for a day (tho this would be devastating at bedtime b/c he needs it to sleep...so actually i'm not sure what i would've done. probably asked him something like "do you think you are earning bedtime stories with that behavior?" this wouldn've stopped him for the time. but he would have done it again tomorrow.

sooooo, after putting on my sad face, i recalled a bit of advice a mama here said at the beginning of the thread. i said "great idea! let's try throwing littlebrownpuppy off the back porch, into the grass, where nothing will get hurt." and we did. and then it was bedtime. problem solved without threats or coercion.

i felt great!

but....then what do i do when he kicks me? say "great idea! let's go kick a pillow, because that won't hurt the pillow."

hmmm. now that i type it, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea! ooooh: i hope he kicks me tomorrow so i can try it. :LOL


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
You've gotten lots of good ideas (and so have I, as usual







). Just wondering, though, where is dad in all this? How does he communicate, discipline, punish? Are you doing the same things or different things?

he pretty much follows my lead (he views me as the child "expert" *snort*). except that he isn't as patient or tolerant as i am. he carts him off to his room more quickly than i do. also, ezra hits and kicks him far more than he does me.

he'll do whatever i tell him (dh--not ds! ha!). he has been assigned this thread as reading, and i told him we're making big changes.

(unfortunately, dh shares what i'm now calling "the family temperment." clear about how things should go; quick to anger; quick to frustration. yikes! maybe it was wrong of us to breed...)


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
but....then what do i do when he kicks me? say "great idea! let's go kick a pillow, because that won't hurt the pillow."

hmmm. now that i type it, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea! ooooh: i hope he kicks me tomorrow so i can try it. :LOL

Yeah I think it is a great idea. If DD is bouncing on the bed and I'm worried she's going to land on the baby I tell her she can bounce on the other half of the bed. If she throws things I show her where she can throw it. If she hits I tell her what she can hit if she's angry. She actually did this on her own the other day and I really encouraged it. Glad you had some success.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

: Great thread!

No advice, just a









And will be hangin' around







:


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Following along with interest...







:

One thing jumped out at me in this thread (and has in other GD threads as well), and that's the use of "the sad face" or "the unhappy face" or the "that makes me feel bad" statement in response to misbehavior by kids. I don't get it, quite honestly. It seems like this is giving control of the parent's emotions over to the child, and that's either going to show the child that they have the key to push mama's (or papa's) buttons or it's going to be too much of a burden for the child (and possibly both). I think a non-reactive, unemotional "that is not acceptable behavor; let's do X, Y, or Z" approach is a much more effective strategy.


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

New to this thread but I read most of it.

First I want to express my support and admiration.







You are obviously stuggling and it takes courage to seek advise and then try new things. It does sound as if the punishments are completly backfiring. Which makes total sense because your ds is too smart for them. It seems that he has seen them for what they are and realizes that he can live through them. However, as I see it, it has cost you his trust.

From reading your posts, I gather that you ds is a strong willed, but sensitive and very intellegent boy. It maybe that he is trying to protect himself from the hurt that has been caused by the punishments you have been using. The love withdrawl in any form is painful for a child, some react by complaince, hence your friends children, and some react with defiance.

The first thing I would do, is try to get yourself to embrace the fact that your son is not going to "bend" to your will. He will not just "comply". He has a strong will. Accept this as a good thing and you have already begun to deconstruct the "power struggle". What I am trying to say is, try to see his independence, or even defiance as self confidence, and determination. If you can change you view of his "behavior" then your reactions will follow. I work on this on a daily basis with dd.

That is the main thing I wanted to express. Of course I agree with a lot of the information posted already. Forget that he is 4, try to go back to a time when things were better. Treat him like he is 2 or 3. What did you do then. I'm sure what ever it was, it took more effort than sending him to his room. Try to distract and redirect him. Try not to punish him at all. Try to negotiate, and come up with alternatives.

As far as the hitting and kicking go. I know this is a red button issue. Very hard not to have some sort of consequenses. I would try not to get angry, remove myself from harms way, but not leave completly and explain that I will not allow myself to be hurt. This ussually results in dd asking to give me a hug, to which I oblige her and then we work on patching things up. Once things have calmed down. I make eye contact, I explain that hitting is not okay, that it hurts. I explain that it is okay to be angry or upset, but that there are words that can be used or other activities (ie kicking a pillow) that can be done instead of hitting and kicking. Then I would let it go. I would not force an appology. I would not drag out the conversation.

I try to assume that basically dd has lost control, but that she is not malicious. Now I try to interveen before she loses control. Whether that be avoiding to much stimulation or making sure she snacks and rests when needed.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

but....then what do i do when he kicks me? say "great idea! let's go kick a pillow, because that won't hurt the pillow."
Drop the "great idea" part and go ahead with having him kick the pillow.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Francy, I'm hearing your and ds' consistent challenges communicating his feelings appropriately, feeling overwhelmed by social interactions, etc. and wondering if you have had him evaluated for an autistic spectrum disorder or PDD, or have thought about this.

ASD children sometimes have deficits in their ability to empathize and engage in 'affective reciprocity' (the ability to engage in and pick up on facial/tone of voice/body language cues). I wonder when ds is shouting 'go away' is he doing this at moments when he is feeling overwhelmed by his environment or the possibility of social interaction and is trying to 'get a grip'. Like when one has a terrible headache and wants the room dark and quiet.

In working with my own ds I have become familiar with the work of Dr. Stanley Greenspan, who has developed a 'floor time' method of working with ASD children to improve their abilities to empathize and regulate their own emotional states. His "layman's" book on these techniques (and on emotional/cognitive developmental milestones in general) is Building Healthy Minds, which I highly recommend. In the book are specific floor exercises to help children and parents focus on skills building based on the areas they find most challenging. The Floortime Foundation also has great information about this kind of work: http://www.floortime.org/ft.php?page=Articles

I'm not suggesting that ds necessarily falls into this category, but even if he doesn't you may find some of the skills building stuff they do helpful.

Of course, for kids lacking these skills no amount of punishment/time-outs is going to help (any more than punishing a baby because he can't walk yet), and just increases their frustration because they *are* trying to communicate with you, they just don't have the skills.

Re the Pearls, they are child abusers who equate complex human interactions with those of horses and dogs. I frankly can't see why anyone would take anything the Pearls say seriously. And as for 'it works' - well, there are plenty of studies out there to show that corporal punishment actually doesn't work very well even in the short-term to gain immediate compliance. And lots of other studies that show that in the long-term corporal punishment can have disastrous effects on a child's ability to become a resilient, happy adult.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

ok...i gotta say something...yes, hitting and kicking is not a good thing. i don't think that anybody on this thread has suggested that it's no big deal. but can we stop with the "abuse" word and the implication that he's gonna grow up to be some sort of serial killer asshat??? i mean, my god!! i guarantee you that Francy can come up with her own horrifying scenarios quite well on her own in her quiet moments of fear and frustration. do we REALLY need to echo and support those fears??? HOW does that help her?? she has OBVIOUSLY realized that this is a big deal and has come here for support. i don't think she came here to hear others who have never so much as SEEN her son tell her that her kid is abusing her and will grow up to be evil and scary. i mean, good grief! that really pisses me off. the advice that came along with those comments was fantastic and i agree with it. but i really really REALLY think that it is counterproductive, hurtful, and downright *rude* to include those other comments.

ok now back to the situation at hand:
i think it's great that your strategy to get him to throw his lovey elsewhere worked so well! i agree that i would have left off the sad face, just because it does give him a bit more power than you in that situation. the reason he's not allowed to do that isn't because it hurts your feelings, it's because it's not allowed in the house and it is dangerous, kwim?

i really think that this is gonna work. he's a smarty and you're determined. a great combination!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

One thing jumped out at me in this thread (and has in other GD threads as well), and that's the use of "the sad face" or "the unhappy face" or the "that makes me feel bad" statement in response to misbehavior by kids. I don't get it, quite honestly. It seems like this is giving control of the parent's emotions over to the child, and that's either going to show the child that they have the key to push mama's (or papa's) buttons or it's going to be too much of a burden for the child (and possibly both).
I have to say I really agree w/this sentiment. Dh and I are struggling w/finding alternatives to this. I believe that empathy and perspective are absolutely essential for children BUT they are not responsible for my emotions. I think that if we're not careful, it can become part of teaching children to perform for praise and can be used to control through guilt. Here's a silly example from last night...ds (4) was scooping bugs out of the pool and our initial response was "good job! That's going to make G'pa very happy!" Okay, so how do we rephrase that to encourage the intrinsic satisfaction? We got, "Wow, what a great idea to scoop out those bugs. Now, the pool will be nice & clean for you guys. Smart idea."


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
ok...i gotta say something...yes, hitting and kicking is not a good thing. i don't think that anybody on this thread has suggested that it's no big deal. but can we stop with the "abuse" word and the implication that he's gonna grow up to be some sort of serial killer asshat??? i mean, my god!! i guarantee you that Francy can come up with her own horrifying scenarios quite well

Until you've been bruised head to toe for years, until people have started to think you are a battered wife when it is really your DS doing it, I think you should reserve judgement. Noone said the OPs DS would turn into a serial killer. But, he is being taught that it is ok to control and physically harm ("abuse") other people. (This is not the OP's fault or anything, she's obviously trying her darndest to fix this.)

There are women who continued to be battered by the kids (usually sons but not always) for years, and as they get older and stronger it gets worse. The OPs DS is only 4, she has time yet, but I recognize in her descriptions my own DS, and with him, yes it got worse. It is completely wrong for a mom to be hit by anyone.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Did you ever figure out why your son was doing this, meowe? How did you stop it?


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
Francy, I'm hearing your and ds' consistent challenges communicating his feelings appropriately, feeling overwhelmed by social interactions, etc. and wondering if you have had him evaluated for an autistic spectrum disorder or PDD, or have thought about this.


y'know, as i've been rereading some of my stuff, i've noticed that some off my sons quirky behaviors make him sound like he is somewhere on the pdd spectrum. but actually, he is most definitely not pdd. he can be very social (e.g. wonderful at going up to children--usually older--and asking "would you like to play with me?"--the devises a game, and gets the 8 yr olds to follow his directions-- usually reads my face very well, frequently asks me to look at his face when he is upset ("mama, look at my face? how does it look?"), totally normal developmental milestones, etc. BUT, as you said, that doesn't mean that some of the ideas you spoke of wouldn't be helpful for when he is in one of his "sensory moments." he seems to only be overwhelmed by me, and dh. he is the proverbial angel with friends (with manners right out of "little lord fauntleroy"), and mamas who know him are incredulous when i speak of his home behavior.

he definitely displays most of the ODD behaviors. but that is the only one. he isn't at all hyper, or innatentive, but is very deliberate and focused on the business at hand.

thanks for your ideas.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
One thing jumped out at me in this thread (and has in other GD threads as well), and that's the use of "the sad face" or "the unhappy face" or the "that makes me feel bad" statement in response to misbehavior by kids. I don't get it, quite honestly. It seems like this is giving control of the parent's emotions over to the child, and that's either going to show the child that they have the key to push mama's (or papa's) buttons or it's going to be too much of a burden for the child (and possibly both). I think a non-reactive, unemotional "that is not acceptable behavor; let's do X, Y, or Z" approach is a much more effective strategy.


i know what you mean. the whole "look at my face" business, for me anyway, came out of conflict resolution training (i was a kindergarten teacher before having my boys). it's all about giving "I" messages: not telling the kid (or your peer, in the case of school) you did such and such, rather, "i felt really sad when you bludgeoned me over the head with the gym teachers tennis racket." (accompanied by a very sad face). of course, the idea is to encourage empathy, and recognize that our actions don't occur in isolation. we are a society of humans, our behaviors affect others, and facial expressions are an important way for the unsophistocated child to interpret the results of his or her behavior. make sense?

in my own son's case, it may or may not be helpful. i'm not sure yet. b/c he is very controlling, i agree that it might be better for me to go instead for the poker face.


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mosky22*
The first thing I would do, is try to get yourself to embrace the fact that your son is not going to "bend" to your will. He will not just "comply". He has a strong will. Accept this as a good thing and you have already begun to deconstruct the "power struggle". What I am trying to say is, try to see his independence, or even defiance as self confidence, and determination.

i agree. in contemplating the pearls, i realized that it would take a tremendous amount of switching to get him to yield...and i'm not sure he ever would. the handfull of times we have tried spanking, he was completely unyielding (and defiantly repeated the infraction over and over again. showing that he was determined to win).

but what is the line between confidence and determination, and rudeness, and inconsideration?

like this morning: i go into the bedroom to get the baby (they share a room). ezra is mad that my presence woke him.

him: (angry voice) i didn't want you to come in here!
me







not addressing his angry tone) i'm sorry honey. i'll quickly change jonah's diaper and then we'll leave. [diaper change....]
him: (angry) i can't sleep with you guys talking down there!
me: sorry hon. we're done. we're going. [proceed to leave]
him: close the shade! [i grit my teeth and pull down the window shade. move out the door]
him: no! [referring to the position i left the door in] that's not right. make it xxxxx [here, he used one of his invented word--can't remember what it was--but i had no clue what he meant. did he want it closed all the way? i closed it.]
him: NOOOOO! not like that! xxxxx! [repeats word]
me: (holding my temper. haven't had my tea yet.) ez, please! i'm doing my best here! please speak english to me. HOW do you want the door?
him: xxxxx [exasperated, i try to leave]
him: xxxxx! [he gestures with his arm to show that he wants the door wide open. i open it, and leave]

curtain closes. exit stage left.

sooooooo, i stayed calm. i didn't threaten consequences for rude voice. i tried to make him happy. overall, the situation was mostly calm. normally, i would have said things like, "ezra, i don't speak to you that way, please speak politely to me. i'll try to help you...but listen to how you're talking to me? how do you think it makes me feel?" and so on...

but what did he learn from this? that he can speak in any darn tone he pleases? that my job is to do his bidding? that he is the king?

this is my concern.

how else could i have responded?
am i to hope that by my continued patience and forbearance, he'll one day see the light, and stop ordering me around?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Until you've been bruised head to toe for years, until people have started to think you are a battered wife when it is really your DS doing it, I think you should reserve judgement. Noone said the OPs DS would turn into a serial killer. But, he is being taught that it is ok to control and physically harm ("abuse") other people. (This is not the OP's fault or anything, she's obviously trying her darndest to fix this.)

There are women who continued to be battered by the kids (usually sons but not always) for years, and as they get older and stronger it gets worse. The OPs DS is only 4, she has time yet, but I recognize in her descriptions my own DS, and with him, yes it got worse. It is completely wrong for a mom to be hit by anyone.

i understand that it can be a huge issue, and i feel for those who are going through it. of course it is a big deal and is something to be taken seriously. i just object to the emphasis on the negativity of the situation and drilling it into her head that this is a bad thing and has to stop. i think it's pretty clear that she knows it has to stop, and has come here to learn how to stop it. imo, the posts should start *there*...not with reiterating the problem. as a mother, it would really hurt me to hear others tell me what a heathen my child is and how he's abusing me. it would be counterproductive if i were to hear that from others, and i would probably feel even more desperate.

believe me, i am not trying to belittle the seriousness of violence and aggression in kids. and i empathize with your situation and the situation of others in your position.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i just object to the emphasis on the negativity of the situation and drilling it into her head that this is a bad thing and has to stop. i think it's pretty clear that she knows it has to stop, and has come here to learn how to stop it... as a mother, it would really hurt me to hear others tell me what a heathen my child is and how he's abusing me. it would be counterproductive if i were to hear that from others, and i would probably feel even more desperate.

believe me, i am not trying to belittle the seriousness of violence and aggression in kids. and i empathize with your situation and the situation of others in your position.

Thank you for stating *my* feelings so clearly! The OP knows this behavior is "unacceptable." Labeling something unacceptable doesn't make it stop, however.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Francy, when I de-latch my toddler I'll type out the info that was given to me to help deal with our o.d.d ds. Not saying your ds has odd, but the communication suggestions could help anyone I'm sure!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

So many great recommendations here, as I skim through - I just had to post because I so clearly remember that time with a baby and intense explosive preschooler. It was the hardest parenting time of my life, and it makes my stomach queasy just to remember it.

For us, removing dairy did a LOT of good. It took 30 days to see a difference, but there was a steady improvement. To this day (at 10yo), he is just so dang grumpy and nasty if he's had milk. He can manage the feelings better now, but it still makes him tired, aggressive and impulsive. \

We did also, of course, use the tools in the Explosive Child and the other wonderful books mentioned by PPs in this thread.

Good luck, mama. PM me if you want more detail - I went to a therapist myself during this time and he gave me some other good tools to use that helped.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Toddler has de-latched!

Heres a wee bit:

1. Limit yes/no responses: try not to draw the line in the sand, your child will WIN the power struggle. Your child is interested in the process of arguing or getting their own way, while you are outcome oriented, you want something done (pick up toys; take garbage out)

2. Use a 2 tier system of discipline:

Tier one: giving choices and allowing the child to make decisions
Tier two: removing privileges or allwance that does not require the childs compliance, should they not follow thru with the choices given. As in, if they dont pick up toys, dont make them to the dishes for a week - instead, take away toy.

3. Use tagging: acknowledge a certain negative behaviour, but do not attempt to discull it in the heat of the moment. Its hard to do, but it works.

4. Give choices, choices, choices and more choices: sandwich cut in circle or square?

5. If you feel yourself "fueling the fire" with your child, remove yourself from the situation. Remember, you will NOT win the power struggle with your child. As parents, you need to determine your own mood, rather than allowing your child to determine it.

6. What feelings are behind your childs behaviour and actions? Think of the behaviour as a message, not as a way to upset you. Do not take what they say/do personally. Is she/he mad, sad, lonely, bored, happy, confused, guilty, frustrated, angry, ambarrassed, frightened, depressed, jealous, anxious or shy? Avoid blaming the child for the behaviour and talk about how they are feeling and what they are thinking about (when everyone is calm of course)

7. Pick up on verbal and non-verbal clues. Hiding their face, crying, fidgeting, etc. If anger is the secondary emotion what is the primary emotion?

8. Validate the feelings and thoughts that your child may be talking about. IMPORTANT: your childs perception may not be "reality" but it is your childs reality, and that is what they are reacting to. Avoid minimizing the childs feelings and dismissing how they see the family and how it is functioning, even if you do not agree. (Ex; you really dont love his sister more, but avoid, 'oh thats just silly' comments when he expresses it)

9. You and your partner may not be able to give your child what they want all of the time, but they need unconditional love, routine, structure and consistency. Child want to be a part of a safe, nurturing family and do not want to be rejected. Rules, limits, and consequences need to be clearly outlined on paper to avoid any discrepancies.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Heres the rest:

10. Focus on the success of your child, not teh the negative behaviours. Have things improved over the past several months or gotten worse? Change occors in waves, there will be lows and highs, good days and bad.

11. Make an ignore list outlining what behaviours or actions of your child that are not life threatening or morally threatening (in other words, what can you live with, or what is not starting world war three - remember we are trying to decrease the number and intensity of the power struggles in the household)

12. You must love your child unconditionally (which you already do!) even when your child is driving you crazy, and you are realy to give up. Separate your child from his/her behaviour, do not take their comments personally.

13. Consistency, consistency, consistency.

Just a few more pointers, ask dont tell. "what needs to be done before you go to bed?" brush teeth. Its not that they want to do something different, they just want to have control and not feel as if they are being told what to do. KWIM?

I hope these help. Take what might work and leave the rest. If you have any specific questions, I'd be more than happy to answer.

laura

p.s I found if ds has too much milk he gets "grumpy" too. And food dyes (especially red) will throw him into a major tailspin. Try to avoid processed and dyed food (but I think you already do that







so never mind)


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## snoodess (Apr 30, 2003)

Nodding my head a lot and taking notes







:

Shenjall, thank you so much for taking the time to type that up. It's a very helpful list.

Francy, you sound like an awesome mama doing her best. It's encouraging that you already had some good results from some of the suggestions given. Thank you for posting this. Although my dd is much younger I am seeing a lot of the same behaviors described here (uh oh) and I am realizing that some of the techniques I have been using are counter-productive (ie, sad face, using the term naughty







: , drawing line in the sand, etc.). I have also noticed my dd acting out some of my efforts to "discipline" in her creative play and I really think it's time for me to delve into some of those recommended books.

This is a great thread with some awesome suggestions. Thanks mamas!


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

I am also







: . The scope of great advice in this thread will come in handy fo me, as well.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
like this morning: i go into the bedroom to get the baby (they share a room). ezra is mad that my presence woke him.

him: (angry voice) i didn't want you to come in here!
me







not addressing his angry tone) i'm sorry honey. i'll quickly change jonah's diaper and then we'll leave. [diaper change....]
him: (angry) i can't sleep with you guys talking down there!
me: sorry hon. we're done. we're going. [proceed to leave]
him: close the shade! [i grit my teeth and pull down the window shade. move out the door]
him: no! [referring to the position i left the door in] that's not right. make it xxxxx [here, he used one of his invented word--can't remember what it was--but i had no clue what he meant. did he want it closed all the way? i closed it.]
him: NOOOOO! not like that! xxxxx! [repeats word]
me: (holding my temper. haven't had my tea yet.) ez, please! i'm doing my best here! please speak english to me. HOW do you want the door?
him: xxxxx [exasperated, i try to leave]
him: xxxxx! [he gestures with his arm to show that he wants the door wide open. i open it, and leave]

curtain closes. exit stage left.

sooooooo, i stayed calm. i didn't threaten consequences for rude voice. i tried to make him happy. overall, the situation was mostly calm. normally, i would have said things like, "ezra, i don't speak to you that way, please speak politely to me. i'll try to help you...but listen to how you're talking to me? how do you think it makes me feel?" and so on...

but what did he learn from this? that he can speak in any darn tone he pleases? that my job is to do his bidding? that he is the king?

this is my concern.

how else could i have responded?
am i to hope that by my continued patience and forbearance, he'll one day see the light, and stop ordering me around?

OK, I'm no expert, but here's what I see just from reading this scenario. I think it would be hard for a 15 year old not to order you around, let alone a four year old. You're doing everything he says. Definitely a positive step to ignore the rude tone, but I'd ignore the rest of it, too. Why should you offer an apology for changing the baby? He shares a room, sharing means making compromises, being able to make compromises and contributing to the harmony of the family helps foster responsibility AND good self-esteem. You're not putting him out. You shouldn't feel guilty for teaching him cooperation.

Now I'm sorry, I hope that didn't sound too harsh. Only my opinion, of course, here's what I would try.

When ds says he didn't want you in there, I would acknowledge those feelings, but don't apologize for it. Something like, "I know, it's frustrating when brother wakes you up. As soon as we're done, you can go back to sleep." But don't make the implication that someone should be accepting the blame for that. No one should. It's just an unfortunate circumstance. Then I would ignore any other complaints.

When ds asked you to pull down the shades, for now, I would do it and then leave. No response, no answer. Don't get drawn into the argument. Don't feel guilty because you didn't get it just right or didn't understand his made-up word. Just address the initial request, closing the blinds, and quietly and calmly leave.

When things have settled down between you, then you might want to start addressing the tone. When you feel like you're on better footing and everything isn't a fight, he might start asking more politely on his own, since it sounds like he does have the skills and uses them with his friends.

He's blaming you for things he needs to learn to take responsibility for, and he'll be much happier if he does. You're not doing him a disservice, you're teaching him the skills he'll need to be a happy adult. He's devoting way too much time and energy to fighting with you, let him have that back by withdrawing from the fight.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
but what did he learn from this? that he can speak in any darn tone he pleases? that my job is to do his bidding? that he is the king?

Yes, I think that may be, to some degree, what he learned from this interaction. You were still walking on eggshells with him. But it is a good start. Now in addition to respecting him, you have to remember to respect yourself!

I have a 5.5 year old who has some very similar behaviors to your son. She is filled with anxiety, frustration & rage. We have been dealing with her raging/hitting/kicking/namecalling for over a year now. I find that the more cool and confident I appear the more she tends to respect me & of course the more desperate and frustrated I am, she becomes more rude, adversarial and wild.

I have to agree that your emotional detachment is SO CRUCIAL. Also both parents having consistent responses and generally being on the same page is equally important for the success of whatever "methods" you try. Someone on these boards said "decide what YOU are going to do and do it, do not focus on the behavior you are trying to elicit". This is also invaluable advice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
how else could i have responded?

Throughout the interaction I would simply have reminded him how he could communicate more respectfully, not sticking on any one point or demanding better behavior at that moment which would be sure to cause a power struggle (also he just woke up and is a little cranky too), but noting how things should be said. Short and to the point. It might go something like this:

him: (angry voice) i didn't want you to come in here!
_me: (Totally neutral - even lighthearted, touch him gently if you feel it would be ok, to make a positive connection) Sorry, honey, you & your brother share a room. Not much can be helped. Didn't mean to wake you, why don't you rest a while longer?_
him: (angry) i can't sleep with you guys talking down there!
_me: (Neutral) You can say "could you please be quiet." Sorry if we were loud. We're done now._
him: close the shade!
_me: (Neutral again, instructive, but not making an issue of it) You can say "mama please close the shade" [pull down the window shade. move out the door]_
him: no! [referring to the position i left the door in] that's not right. make it xxxxx [here, he used one of his invented word--can't remember what it was--but i had no clue what he meant. did he want it closed all the way? i closed it.]
him: NOOOOO! not like that! xxxxx! [repeats word]
_me: (Neutral) Sorry, I don't understand you. Please ask me politely, and in words I can understand. (if he couldn't articulate it or was really rude, I would say I'm just going to leave it like this and then do it and leave the room._

In this case I probably wouldn't have corrected every single time (that would be awfully pedantic), but those are just ideas of what I could have said.

It sounds as though your ds may have some anxiety (?) - my dd wants everything to be a particular way, has a lot of fear (which comes out as anger) if things don't go exactly as imagined. I always try to reassure her in my tone that everything is ok, nothing out of the ordinary is happening, and that she is safe.

So I try to make sure I am showing ultimate respect and kindness, but also being firm about what is acceptable and what not. In dd's hitting episodes I say things like "You may be angry, but you may not hit me. You may hit this pillow." I try to find an outlet right away. Or we try karate chops into the air (she pretends she is kicking her 10-month old brother) which usually ends up with us both laughing. I try to read the Playful Parenting book a lot, it helps me remember that laughter can really help take the tension out and give me some new energy, and can be part of creating solutions.

Today dd told me I was stupid so I pretended to play air guitar and made up a song called "stupid mama" and within 2 minutes she was laughing really hard and back to her normal self; no it didn't stop her from calling me stupid but she learned that I wouldn't let it hurt me. Then every time she asked me to do something, I said I can't, I'm stupid, sorry I don't know how. And then later, when it was all over, I talked about why we can't call people ugly names.

Sorry this is kind of rambly, hope it helps. Good luck, I know just what you are going through.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

sphinx, I have to agree with what you said about emotional detachment.

My ds quickly learned that to get a rise out of me all he had to do was swear at me. Now we've set out clear rules about no swearing and if there is, you lose computer time. So in an "argument" (which I try not to engage, but sometimes I start to get sucked in a little) if he does swear, I just ignore, leave the room and he knows once he's calmed down, there'll be no comp time. This worked quite well, he doesnt swear at me anymore.

He still has his episodes, we both have our buttons that can be pushed, but we take each day at a time and continue to build our relationship.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
but....then what do i do when he kicks me? say "great idea! let's go kick a pillow, because that won't hurt the pillow."

I agree with the pp- drop the "great idea." Maybe say "You may not kick me (in a matter of fact tone). Let's go kick a pillow..."
I also agree with Meowee- hitting and kicking ANYONE is unacceptable. I think she had a great suggestion-

Quote:

Well, this may sound simplistic, but first was to lay down the rule explicitly that hitting me was 100% against the rules and wrong.
I really really admire you, francy. You seem like you are working very hard to turn this situation around. Look- gd already took one event that *could* have turned quite unpleasant, and left you feeling great!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
like tonight: the ceiling fan was on, and he started throwing his "lovey" up in the air. i said "please stop. that could damage the fan, and it could damage littlebrownpuppy." he tossed it again. i said, "ezra, look at my face? [i put on a sad face] how does it look?" he tossed it AGAIN (BUT--not near the fan. a teeny step of progress.) normally, i would take it away for a day (tho this would be devastating at bedtime b/c he needs it to sleep...so actually i'm not sure what i would've done. probably asked him something like "do you think you are earning bedtime stories with that behavior?" this wouldn've stopped him for the time. but he would have done it again tomorrow.

sooooo, after putting on my sad face, i recalled a bit of advice a mama here said at the beginning of the thread. i said "great idea! let's try throwing littlebrownpuppy off the back porch, into the grass, where nothing will get hurt." and we did. and then it was bedtime. problem solved without threats or coercion.

i felt great!

I see a lot of things going on here. When you asked him to stop throwing lovey in the fan, he did test you. When you didn't turn it into a battle, he still threw it, but not AT the fan - he's trying to give up the control thing too (it seems to me) It's a hard thing to give up, I;m sure you know. I'm guessing that he was quite ok with going outside and throwing lovey there. It sounds like he's trying too







You (and he) handles that situation very well.

Good luck keeping it up!


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Hi, i too have a four year old boy. Tho my son does not hit, punch, kick me, he does speak disrespectfully at times, and is swiftly corrected and reminded of my ability to take away movie priveleges. This in and of itself can bring around a change of the way he talks to me, and end it. At times tho, it doesnt and we have a round of times outs, yelling etc etc.( i dont hit or spank my kids).... adn i just hate what we end up at when i yell.. i dont want to yell, so badly so i have a sign on my wall that says no yelling. Also, my son can be very mean and tease tease tease his younger sister at times, which in turn makes her holler and drives me batty.....

Anyhow, i have found that sometimes, we get into a ..... circle of bad behavior, attention for it, bad behavior, attention for it and its just spirals out of control.. until i notice and start paying attention to ANY DARN GOOD THING HE DOES... which can help sometimes bring things back to positive and go from there....

Also works for my 4 year old, a sticker chart. He picks out stickers he likes, we make a chart of maybe 3 thigns he can earn a sticker for ... if he earns all 3 stickers for the day, he gets a quarter at the end of the day...and sometimes, i can hold off till he is in bed, which helps with bedtime routine, i will be like ok, lets get ready for bed and you can have your quarter.... it works so great, and then we start counting money and thinking about what he would like to buy.... at this point we mostly put them in his piggy bank, but for the first couple months he saved to buy toys..


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shenjall*
11. Make an ignore list outlining what behaviours or actions of your child that are not life threatening or morally threatening (in other words, what can you live with, or what is not starting world war three - remember we are trying to decrease the number and intensity of the power struggles in the household)

ask dont tell. "what needs to be done before you go to bed?" brush teeth. Its not that they want to do something different, they just want to have control and not feel as if they are being told what to do. KWIM?


love the teeth brushing example (something we struggle over!). will definitely try that throughout the day (like before leaving to go out--another "struggle" time as i'm trying to get everyone set.

re: #11. this one is on my mind re: rude language/ordering us around. i'm willing to try to ignore it for now, and focus on my own kinder and gentler attitude. but this is really hard for me b/c i feel soooooo strongly that as fellow human beings, we mustn't talk to each other that way. it has always been my #1 rule (both as a teacher, and as a parent): Be Nice. of course, i have disregarded it tons lately, so i can't be too ruffled that he is disregarding it. i just hope he stops being a tyrant on his own......

thanks so much for listing those!

(i'm going to have dh print out this whole thread at work for me. i can bind it, and keep it as a reference!! later, when i'm an uber-mom, i'll publish it all as my own thoughts and ideas, become fabulously wealthy, and forget all the little people who helped me along the way.





















)


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
OK, I'm no expert, but here's what I see just from reading this scenario. I think it would be hard for a 15 year old not to order you around, let alone a four year old. You're doing everything he says. Definitely a positive step to ignore the rude tone, but I'd ignore the rest of it, too. Why should you offer an apology for changing the baby? He shares a room, sharing means making compromises, being able to make compromises and contributing to the harmony of the family helps foster responsibility AND good self-esteem. You're not putting him out. You shouldn't feel guilty for teaching him cooperation.

lots of good ideas in the rest of your post too...

re: the above. after i did the door wrong the first time (the door was actually a separate thing from the window shade. lordy, i was supposed to get em both right!), i tried to just ignore the demand and leave. but what he started to do--what he always does--is start to flip out. scream. rage. come running after me to hit me. or just cry and cry and cry. soooo, in order to avoid all that, i decided to grit my teeth and do his bidding. boy, did ever feel like a house elf (harry potter, anyone? perhaps i'll change my name to winky.)

was i to:
1. ignore the rude demands, thus leading to major rage-fest.
2. try to help while discussing/acknowledging/reprimanding (all slightly different, and i wasn't confident that i'd say the "right" thing from a gd perspective) his tone and unreasonable (?) demands.
3. be winky the house elf, and do his bidding.

to keep the peace, i went with 3. but i agree, it isn't a good long term option. i hope i can learn to do a version of 2 once we "get on track."


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angela&avery*
Hi, i too have a four year old boy. Tho my son does not hit, punch, kick me, he does speak disrespectfully at times, and is swiftly corrected and reminded of my ability to take away movie priveleges. This in and of itself can bring around a change of the way he talks to me, and end it.


this was standard operating procedure for us too. and since i was usually able to "get my way" in the short term, i figured i was doing the right thing.

then i realized that while removing a privilage might stop the behavior on monday, it reappeared on tuesday morning. and so on...

also there was my ds's ever-helpful comment that my punishments wouldn't change his behavior.

so i'm really interested in this "radical gd" (i.e. no punishment.) hesitant, skeptical, but really interested.

do you feel like your current methods are giving general, long-term success? mine clearly weren't.


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy
but what is the line between confidence and determination, and rudeness, and inconsideration?

like this morning: i go into the bedroom to get the baby (they share a room). ezra is mad that my presence woke him.

him: (angry voice) i didn't want you to come in here!
menot addressing his angry tone) i'm sorry honey. i'll quickly change jonah's diaper and then we'll leave. [diaper change....*

*Instead of appologising, which is not really helpful to you or him. Since he is quite capable of expressing himself, I would ask why. "Why don't you want me in here?". Then wait for an answer. If nothing comes, offer one. "Did I wake you up?".*

him: (angry) i can't sleep with you guys talking down there!
me: sorry hon. we're done. we're going. [proceed to leave]

*Is he refering to you and your husband downstairs? If so he was sitting there brewing with anger before you even came in. If this is the case, offer an honest suggestion. "I didn't know that you could hear us downstairs. You can always ask us nicely to be more quiet so you can sleep."
See the difference here is you are not tipptoeing around, you are being understanding, you are aknowledging his frustration and feelings, without appologising, or reprimenading, and offering an alternative to his being angry.
*

him: close the shade! [i grit my teeth and pull down the window shade. move out the door]

*Ignore the tone, try to diffuse the tension with an alternative. While closing the shade, say something like "Since you are already up, do you want to come down and have breakfast" ( or what ever your normal morning routine is). This situation reminds me of how parents often set their children up to fail, by asking more of them then they are capable of giving. I think he is doing the same thing to you. Which is what follows.*

him: no! [referring to the position i left the door in] that's not right. make it xxxxx [here, he used one of his invented word--can't remember what it was--but i had no clue what he meant. did he want it closed all the way? i closed it.]
him: NOOOOO! not like that! xxxxx! [repeats word]
me: (holding my temper. haven't had my tea yet.) ez, please! i'm doing my best here! please speak english to me. HOW do you want the door?
him: xxxxx [exasperated, i try to leave]
him: xxxxx! [he gestures with his arm to show that he wants the door wide open. i open it, and leave]

curtain closes. exit stage left.

You should not have to appologise, instead acknowledge his frustration, then offer an alternative for his anger.

Next, I looked up some stuff from "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & How To Listen So Kids Will Talk", by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. This is a great book to get you started on GD. It has a lot of workbook type examples, that you can work through to put things in your own words and prespective.

In the chapter titleed "Engaging Cooperation", there are 5 recommended strategies. The list is as follows:1)Describe what you see, or describe the problem. 2) Give Information. 3) Say it with a word. 4) Describe what you feel, 5) Write a Note ( this last one is for older kids). I highly reccommend picking up this book to understand these strategies in more depth.

In the chapter "Alternative to Punishment" the list is as follows: 1) Point out a way to be helpful. 2) Express strong dissaproval (without attacking character). 3) State your expectations. 4) Show the child how to make ammends. 5) Give a choice. 6)Take action. 7) Allow the child to experince the consequences of his misbehavior.

Now as you get more an more GD, you may as I have even come to reject some of the later on this second list. But I think that this is a good place for you to start.

Next from "Kids are worth it!" by Babara Coloroso, in a specific senario about hitting between siblings she has this to say; "Neither resuing nor punishing [the child] will serve her well. She needs to learn that hitting in not an appropriate way to handle conflict. It doesn't solve anything, and it only invites more hitting. A backbone parent ( this is in refernce to the 3 differnt parenting styles that she illustrate throughout the book) is there to help [the child] calm down, fix what she has done, figure out how to keep it from happening again, and heal with the brother she has harmed.". These are the three "R's", Restitution, Resolution and Reconciliation. She goes on to articulate a parental response. " You are there quick to respond. 'You are angry. It's okay to be angry. It is not okay to hit. You need time to calm down. You can calm down in your room, in the rocker, or on my lap. Take your pick.' Notice there are three options. If you give two a strong willed child will try to figure out which one you want her to pick and purposely pick the other. Give three and she will be confused. Sometimes with older chiuldren, offering a choice between sitting and walking is also a good idea. Some people, kids included, can calm themselves more easily if they are moving about. The purpose and the intended results are the same: to calm down then work through the original problem or conflict."

Okay I know that was long. But It is just such a great example, and I have been able to get from it what I needed as a p[arent on the receiveing end of the hitting. Another key that she points out is that the three "R's" need to take place in sequence.

That is all I have for now. Hope it helps a little. Sending lots of warm GD thoughts your way.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

just wanted to say that i think you're doing great! you'll see - in time you'll be such an expert at diffusing his rage...and these posts are SO helpful - to me too!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Walking away when a child is in a shared common area and starts screaming "don't look at me don't talk to me" IS letting the child control you. ... (snip)...If the child is in a shared common househould area, the child should be invited to leave the room for his privacy. For the parents to scurry away will only reinforce his being accustomed to being allowed to abuse others. Abuse is not right, whether from child to parent or parent to child.

I've been thinking about this a lot. It makes sense, but I don't totally agree with it- I just couldn't put my finger on WHY.
I've come up with this so far: The op's son is trying to communicate a need. He needs to have privacy. He's just not communicating it respectfully. Imo that's different from being controlling just because he can, kwim? I'm not saying to simply ignore the disrespect. Make the first priority helping him get his needs met. Second priority is to give him more appropriate ways of communicating those needs.
So, if he says "i didn't want you to come in here!" help him understand his feelings, and give him words he could use "It's frustrating to be woken up. You really wish I wouldn't have distubed you. I need to change your brother's diaper and then we'll leave." (imo, morning time is no time for lessons. but then again, I am NOT a morning person lol)
When you walk in a room, and he tells you to go away "It seems like you really want some privacy. I'd rather you say "mama, I want to be alone." Then give him the option of going somewhere more private (I agree with a pp's idea that he should have a space that he will have privacy.). Or leave if possible. Leave calmly. This isn't "scurrying away". If dp told me that he really wanted to be alone today, I'd really try to respect that. It's only different in that dp would ask nicely- and that's what your ds needs to learn.

gg- sleepy baby


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

So many angles for approaching this have been offered up, it's amazing and very thought provoking! It just makes me realize that the hardest part of all this is finding the intimate path of communication that works for each individual parent/child pair. Hope you are starting to tread that path now.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Quote:

do you feel like your current methods are giving general, long-term success? mine clearly weren't.
Yes!

While it did take an adjustment at first, it does work for us. We were given another sheet of info that has helped us and we have joined a parenting support group.

What we've learned is to respect each other as people first and foremost. And to listen, really listen to what our ds has to say. Sometimes as parents, we fall into the I'm-your-parent-you-must-comply-mode and its very hard to give up some control. But at the same time, we are the parents and we are in charge. So, while we have given our ds (and our other kids) much more say in day to day life, we still ultimately have the final say. They accept that.

About ignoring the rude behaviour, it will go away if its not getting a reaction. Well, a quick, "please dont be rude" usually does the trick - no long talks about why its wrong. Its been explained why it is, now its a rule that needs to be followed. Very simple. KWIM?

You're doing an awesome job francy! Asking for help is very difficult and it shows just how strong you are!

Hang in there!

p.s. If you would like the other info I have let me know and I'll post it too.


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## quakerlady (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *francy*
is there any explanation why an allergy could cause defiant behavior? about the brain chemistry involved?

.

Check out these links...there is not enough info to make an A-B-C path about allergies and behavior but...
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press...MAY/000518.HTM
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/t041800.asp


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## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

arrrgh.

it has been a heck of a day. will try to come back to give details after i get the kids in bed. ds certainly tried to push all my buttons. he has been rude, demanding, obnoxious. he has dropped library books off his loft, inches from my head. he has thrown numerous objects across the room (knocking over an antique lamp. not broken. thank goodness).

but i have kept my cool. man, it has been so hard. i have come sooooo close to doing "the grip" (i.e., grabbing arm rather hard, and dragging ds to his room).

i feel beat. and totally trod upon. but i only yelled once the whole day, and that was out of terror, as he tipped a very heavy chair backward. i yelled "ezra!" and got the usual, "don't yell at me like that mama!!"

dh finally got to read all this over the weekend. his main comment: i'm a terrible speller. how can i possibly misspell (does that have one s or two?) so many friggin words? well, i don't know. i'm an educated gal, but i've always been a terrible speller. he started to edit my posts to fix my errors, but they were too numerous.







:

more to come...


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

francy said:


> yes. this is exactly my worry in terms of stopping all punishments. what kind of boy might he grow up to be? how can i just sit back and let it happen?
> 
> GD is not doing nothing. I think we're setting up unhelpful juxtapositions here. I agree with a zero tolerance policy about being violent toward you. It seems like the key point you need to work on are:
> 1. being less emotional and reactionary
> ...


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

one thing that has actually made a difference in my OWN attitude is that i call Rowan "sweetheart", "honey", etc when i'm trying to "discipline" him. there's no real reason behind it other than it's hard to remain REALLY pissed at someone when you're calling them sweetie or something. LOL it helps me chill. maybe if Ezra heard you call him names like that instead of his real name he would hear the messages differently.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

I'm sorry you've had a bad day. Its soo tough isnt it?

I agree that GD is not about doing nothing. I view it more as proactive as opposed to reactive.

For us, we have consequences spelt out before any "episodes". When you are both calm and happy, lay them out. Like, "there will be no hitting. from anyone. period. if there is hitting, you will lose x. do you understand?"
Then when he does hit, dont yell, walk away. Ignore it. When he calms down, come back and take away x. (or whatever you decided the consequence will be)

We also have a list of house rules. I've read that making the rules "of the house" as opposed to parents rules make it seem less authoritarian (is that a word?







) And it works, it really does.

The most important thing about the rules is that they are for everyone. A child will feel a sense of fairness if everyone has to follow them. Like, if he cant hit, neither can you.

I will admit that prior to getting help I've hit my son. I knew in my mind it made no sense to hit him for hitting me, but I didnt know what else to do.

Having the no hitting rule in our house took away that option for both of us and made us try something different.

Of course, the hitting is only one example of the trying times our ds has given us. (still does)

Always remember you're doing the best you can! Hang in there. We're here for you.


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