# What do you do when everything is a battle?



## Italiamom (Mar 18, 2009)

I've written and rewritten this post about 4 times. I'm just at a loss, I'm feeling like a crappy mom. I know that a lot of people refer to their toddlers as "spirited," but mine is beyond that.

I feel like all day, every day, is just a battle. If I have even the slightest desire for my toddler to do something, it's his mission not to do it. And if I've ever told him not to do something, it's all he wants to do. Playtime, bathtime, reading, drawing, eating, potty... Everything is a battle, an abject failure. I wake up, battle all day, and most often go to bed in tears. My toddler has zero desire to please. I spend all day frustratedly saying no. Any attempt I make at redirection is met with a brick wall. Offer another choice? No interest. Offering other choices typically ends up in more intensified focus on what can't be done/had/etc.

I want to be a gentle discipline mama. But my toddler won't listen to me in any way, shape, or form. I feel like a prisoner in my home, because I'm afraid to take him anywhere. I'm afraid to do anything with him.

Help?


----------



## Verloren (Jan 2, 2010)

Ugh, sorry you're having a hard time. It can be so frustrating. We had a very rough time for a few months starting around 18 months. How old is your DS? My DS definitely has a mind of his own and likes to be contrary. My suggestion would be to pick your battles very carefully.

If he doesn't want to eat ... well you can't really force him and he won't starve himself. He'll eat when he's hungry. Potty training is barely on my radar. DS has absolutely no interest and I know it would be a major battle if I tried to force it. I definitely would not be battling about playing, reading or drawing. What kind of battles do you mean? Like he draws on the floor with markers instead of on the paper? My DS gets one warning and if he writes on the floor again the markers disappear. He may have a tantrum but there's no battle. That's the rule, sorry we don't draw on the floor!

When DS has a reasonable amount of freedom and independence he is far more likely to follow the rules. Very clear consequences help too. If he doesn't want to sit in his booster seat he can sit in a regular seat .... but he has to sit on his bum and wait to be excused. If not, back in the booster seat he goes. A couple of times back in the booster and he knows what he has to do to get what he wants.

I hope things turn around for you. Hang in there!


----------



## NZJMama (May 11, 2011)

(((hugs))) Oh, that sounds frustrating.Here's a few ideas off the top of my head:

- I'm not sure how old your lo is, but have you tried giving him choices? "Do you want to draw or play with play do?", "Red socks or blue?" If he doesn't make the choice than you just make it for him and move on. No big deal (to you at least).

-Try not to say no, just redirect him to another activity or say yes, but not right now or if at all possible just say yes and give him what he wants.

- Do you have someone to help out with bathtime so that you can take a break and re-energize? It is absolutely exhausting to feel like you are battling all day long. DH has always been the one to give our kids baths and I take the time to just catch my breath, pick up toys and whatnot.

- Let his problems be his problems - not yours. I know, this is easier said than done.

- Remember that this is probably a phase that will pass. In my almost 7 years of being a parent I have learned that there are good times and not-so-good times and they come and go. Just like the ups and downs of life in general.

- Don't be so hard on yourself. You are a wonderful Mom and your love for your son is obvious to me...a virtual stranger.

Good Luck!


----------



## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

You sound like you love your son very much.... not like a bad mom at all. and the situation sounds frustrating - especially the part about not being able to go anywhere. What are your biggest concerns about going out?

Something that has helped me is the idea that toddlers are instinctively social and make it their total mission to integrate into their social group. Even when it looks like they are trying to do their own thing, they are usually trying to imitate some adult ("me do it myself") and learn some skill. So whenever DD and I are locked in a battle over something, I try to see what it is that she is trying to accomplish, what skill she is trying to master, what information she is trying to acquire, and how she is trying to integrate with her social group (ie, me and her dad). Sometimes that helps me find a solution - a redirection - an explanation, or an alternate activity I hadn't thought of, and which is acceptable to her because it meets that core need of integration and assimilation. So then we feel like we are cooperating with each other instead of fighting. Sometimes it helps me remember to model the activity that I would like her to participate in. Sometimes it means I just... say... yes... and let her make a mess. Or do the thing I don't think she can do, only to discover that she can do it. Like crack a dozen eggs....whoa that was hard for me to do, as I grew up with "don't waste food" ingrained in my skull. But they are the same price as a dollar store toy, more exciting, and now that she gets them all in the bowl, we just have very calcium-rich omelets for lunch sometimes.....

And the other thing that helps? Having the grownups outnumber the kids... lol. Any way you can arrange that? Or have some (non-clicky-teethy) friends come over and keep you company while you are housebound? I agree with pps, this is a stage... all kids go through it... and it will pass. You will both find a way.

Also, are there any safe ways for him to get out some physical energy... places he can run around, throw rocks, and hit sticks on the ground? Or maybe wrestling you guys can do (or someone else can do with him), or play a push game or a no game, or a you're the boss game? "Yes to anything for the next ten minutes as long as it doesn't result in death for one of us" game?


----------



## Italiamom (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Verloren*
> 
> When DS has a reasonable amount of freedom and independence he is far more likely to follow the rules. Very clear consequences help too. If he doesn't want to sit in his booster seat he can sit in a regular seat .... but he has to sit on his bum and wait to be excused. If not, back in the booster seat he goes. A couple of times back in the booster and he knows what he has to do to get what he wants.


See, I'm just wondering, how do you actually enforce this? Will your DS allow himself to be moved to the booster? Will he stay in the booster once you've put him there? Because with my DS this scenario would involve, A) climbing from the regular seat repeatedly onto the table, trying to knock food over, certainly NOT eating, or B) us spending 5 minutes, over and over again, repeatedly trying to strap him into his high chair. And I do say "trying" because dang, my kid is strong, and he is a physical fighter. We tried the booster seat, but again, he won't stay there. And when we try to strap him in, he'll flail about and kick to the point that it isn't safe. So we've had to keep the high chair around. Although we don't really eat at the table anymore, because it's a lost cause. If he's not throwing a huge fit, he at the very least refuses to eat while he's sitting. We've done it for the just the routine aspect, but he just screams and whines the whole 10-20 minutes, and after a whole day of screaming and whining, I just want to eat my darn food, wherever that may be.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NZJMama*
> 
> - Do you have someone to help out with bathtime so that you can take a break and re-energize? It is absolutely exhausting to feel like you are battling all day long. DH has always been the one to give our kids baths and I take the time to just catch my breath, pick up toys and whatnot.


DH pretty severely injured his back in January, and is only now able to occasionally pick DS up, or occasionally help with chores. He's happy to read with DS in the evenings, or watch TV, or sit on the floor at the play kitchen. But he can't do anything really that involves his back. Bathtime is up to me. I try to go out for a while each day, but I dread coming home. It's always back to a messy house, and the inevitable bedtime battles, which are the worst part of my day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NZJMama*
> 
> (((hugs))) Oh, that sounds frustrating.Here's a few ideas off the top of my head:
> 
> ...


When I give him choices, like "draw, or read?" He doesn't want to do either. Ever. Either he'll come up with his own idea, and I'll go with it if it doesn't involve destroying something. OR he scowls, and he'll just stand there. Sometimes he'll scowl for a minute before he turns around and pouts. This is if I offer choices as a simple, "what to do?" and not as a redirection. I can offer dozens of choices, and it's never a go. Or I can say, "fine, mommy is going to go and clean until you want to play." And then he'll throw a fit. If I'm interrupting bad behavior (like drawing on the wall, as an example), and I say, "Let's draw on the easel instead, or we can go read a book," he will lunge at the wall and furiously scribble as quickly as possible before I can physically take the pens away. The kid has an incredible grip. And then he'll scream about it for 20 minutes. This is where I'm getting really frustrated, because I see "redirection, redirection" over and over again. But it NEVER works. It's like, to MY toddler, it's just a laughable attempt on my part. And I want to say yes. I've let him destroy a lot of things, because I had been saying no all day. But I can't have him destroying MY books, I can't have him drawing on the walls. I can't have him playing with the scissors on my sewing table. I can't have him playing with outlets. He plays with things all day that he really probably shouldn't, which leaves me feeling exasperated, but I try to say yes as much as I can. I just feel like every time I say yes, I'm saying yes to something I should really say no to, only because it will be another battle if I try to redirect him to something he can do.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> And the other thing that helps? Having the grownups outnumber the kids... lol. Any way you can arrange that? Or have some (non-clicky-teethy) friends come over and keep you company while you are housebound?


I wish!! I'm only good friends with one other SAHM. The non-moms I knew sort of dropped me one by one after I had kids. I wasn't interesting enough anymore, I guess. To much talking about the state of my house, and not enough about the state of the world. Phone calls stopped getting returned, and eventually, I just stopped trying. No one wants to go and hang out with a toddler and a mom when they can be doing things that are "actually fun."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> Also, are there any safe ways for him to get out some physical energy... places he can run around, throw rocks, and hit sticks on the ground? Or maybe wrestling you guys can do (or someone else can do with him), or play a push game or a no game, or a you're the boss game? "Yes to anything for the next ten minutes as long as it doesn't result in death for one of us" game?


All of the places that normal kids would play, and expel energy, are totally off limits to us. We have a big, fenced backyard. And in this yard we have plenty of grass, chickens he can feed, and several unused garden beds where he could play to his heart's content in the dirt. But he doesn't want to run around on the grass, or play in the dirt. He wants to pull up planted things in the garden, play with the BBQ, play with the mower, or play in the woodpile. The garden isn't dangerous, but I would really like to have a few veggies this year. The BBQ, the mower, and woodpile? All dangerous. And again, I try to redirect him. "Let's go play in the dirt!" "Let's go pull up some grass and feed it to the chickens!" "Let's play tag or run around the tree!" Completely. Not. Interested. He just throws a huge fit, over and over, until I finally drag him inside and let him fit there, because at least then my neighbors can't hear him too. It's like any attempts I make at redirection completely backfire. He is just extremely focused on doing what I don't want him to do. In any situation, be it new, or familiar, he'll sort of float around until he finds the thing that he can't do, and then he'll focus on that. I've tried playing games with him, but I think he's still a little young maybe? He just seems confused when I try.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> Sometimes it means I just... say... yes... and let her make a mess. Or do the thing I don't think she can do, only to discover that she can do it. Like crack a dozen eggs....whoa that was hard for me to do, as I grew up with "don't waste food" ingrained in my skull. But they are the same price as a dollar store toy, more exciting, and now that she gets them all in the bowl, we just have very calcium-rich omelets for lunch sometimes.....


This was what triggered it this morning. The eggs. Every morning it's the same damn thing. What do you want? "Eggs." Are you going to eat them? "Yes." So I'll let him take each egg out of the container, but when I put the container back -- tantrum. And ours are not dollar store priced... Until our girls start laying in a couple months, these eggs run us about .50 a pop. So I try to redirect, "do you want to stir the eggs? "Yes." So I let him stir the eggs for a minute while I get the pan ready. I even let my two year old dump the stirred eggs into the hot pan. But as soon as I try to cook the eggs, huge fit. I explain that the pan is hot, that it could hurt him, can he go
and take his chair to his table, and the eggs will be ready in a minute, or can he take the egg container to the sink... No, of course not. At this point he will focus, focus, focus on getting at those eggs. So I have to take my screaming, kicking toddler to another room. At this point (like this morning) the eggs burn. Just trying to do very basic tasks, like making quick eggs, is nearly impossible. I did manage to make a second batch of eggs, after many tears, and then he didn't want to eat them. If I only make one egg, he'll wolf it down and demand more, starting the whole hellish process all over again. But if I make two, then he won't touch them. It's like he magically knows that he's wasting more food.

I just feel like my whole day, from wake up, to slepp, is one huge battle to constantly outsmart and outwit my toddler. It's exhausting. He is so exceedingly smart -- I am proud of him for this. But I spend every minute of my day trying to stay one step ahead, trying to anticipate the next disaster, trying to head things off so that it doesn't get completely out of control.

I'm tired.


----------



## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Oy - sounds like a trying time.

Ds does not sound quite as intense but he definitely has his days where is objectional to every single thing I try to do. The approach that has worked the best for us is to give him 2 choices: you can pick your pj's or mommy picks your pj's, you can walk up the stairs or mommy will carry you up the stairs, you can play nicely outside or we can go inside now. FWIW - it took MANY repititions of this process for him to get that when he gets two options he'd better pick one.

We also count to 3. If we NEED to do something (go inside, get in the carseat, sit down, etc.) I start counting - he knows when I reach 3 I will simply pick him up & we will proceed. We RARELY get to 3 now 'cause he'd almost always rather do things himself than have me do it.

With the tantrums I walk away. "ok, you don't know what you want to eat so you can come see me when you're ready". I stay close by & available to him when he has calmed down, I check on him periodically to make sure he is ok but otherwise I do not engage. It's still stressful for me but I do feel less emotional engaged sometimes by doing this.


----------



## Verloren (Jan 2, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Italiamom*
> 
> See, I'm just wondering, how do you actually enforce this? Will your DS allow himself to be moved to the booster? Will he stay in the booster once you've put him there? Because with my DS this scenario would involve, A) climbing from the regular seat repeatedly onto the table, trying to knock food over, certainly NOT eating, or B) us spending 5 minutes, over and over again, repeatedly trying to strap him into his high chair. And I do say "trying" because dang, my kid is strong, and he is a physical fighter. We tried the booster seat, but again, he won't stay there. And when we try to strap him in, he'll flail about and kick to the point that it isn't safe. So we've had to keep the high chair around. Although we don't really eat at the table anymore, because it's a lost cause. If he's not throwing a huge fit, he at the very least refuses to eat while he's sitting. We've done it for the just the routine aspect, but he just screams and whines the whole 10-20 minutes, and after a whole day of screaming and whining, I just want to eat my darn food, wherever that may be.


I guess I'm lucky that, while DS is willful, he's not really physically aggressive. He does struggle and throw a fit but I can get him strapped into the booster and he's not in any danger of hurting himself. I don't make him sit there for long, it's just to make the point that if he can't sit in a grown-up chair he'll have to sit in his booster. If he's not interested in eating though there is no way he would continue to sit at the table. Once it's obvious he's done eating I get him cleaned up and let him go play. Maybe your DS just really isn't hungry at mealtime. In that case you can't really force it.

Is it possible your DS isn't getting enough sleep? I know we have far more battles if my DS isn't well rested.

I've had pretty limited success with redirection too. Honestly, I find I have more success just walking away from DS when he's like that. It's like he needs to realize "Oh, if I don't play nice she's going to go away."

Sounds like you're at a pretty rough stage with a very challenging kid. I would be exhausted after just one day like the one you've described. I hope things will get easier once he gets past this intense testing stage.


----------



## blessedmama59 (Mar 3, 2010)

Oh, how I can relate, mama. I don't have much advice..I've been feeling like most days are constant battles too. My DD is two..we do have good days, but lately (like in the past 6 months) we've had LOTS of bad days..VERY bad days. I am pregnant, hubby works a lot and has a bad back and knees, and I have NO friends or family to help so it makes it all that much more exhausting. Some days I am not even sure how I muster up the energy to get out of bed..it seems there are days where as soon as her eyes open, the war begins. I try to be patient..I try to stay ahead of her game to prevent as much as possible, I redirect, I try to use simple and short phrases that she understands. I have learned to pick and choose my battles..despite the outcomes not always being what I would prefer. I do get a little silence in the mornings because (going against every cell in my body) I have given in and let her start watching Sesame Street. I am not a fan of television (esp for children), but it gives me a short break to clean up, get laundry started, have a cup of coffee, etc. I am not saying every day is a nightmare..we certainly have wonderful days and I enjoy and love every second I get to spend with my DD..but it is just HARD when you feel so alone and is a BIG shot to your confidence as a mother. I am typing all of this right after an hour and a half battle to get her to nap. It was loud, involved a lot of screaming and tears (on her part), and way much more persistance and patience than I thought I had in me..but she finally gave in, crawled into the bed, gave me a big kiss, and went to sleep. Like PPs have mentioned, these rough toddler years aren't going to last forever..if they did then we would all have no hair and the chronic stress would be killing us all off. I hope you can find some peace somewhere in your day, mama..you deserve it. Don't be so hard on yourself..do what you can and know that you ARE a wonderful mother.


----------



## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

my 32 month old started a pre-school program we have here in our town last month and it has made SUCH a difference. they have rules and they stick to them. he is learning there is nothing to do but follow most of their rules. my mom has noticed that he is maturing big time (she's his main babysitter.) he is beginning to understand boundaries so much better. i'm so grateful for this because he can be very difficult. things that are absolutely necessary: unless it is impossible, i am always consistent with him. if i say something is happening, it has to happen or he will take that inch and run a mile. he gets the choice when there is something he doesn't want to do of: sit in the chair (he doesn't like to sit still so this is his time-out) OR do the thing i want him to do. usually he will get around to picking the thing i want him to do or he will sit in the chair. (of course, DH is part of all this too but i'm with him the most and i'm more consistent.) i don't force him to eat. DH tried that with ds1 and it did NOT work. i told him not to have supper battles with him but he did anyway. ds1 wouldn't eat very much supper for the longest time. i have had them in their strollers from day 1 so they are/were very good in the stroller (for ds2, esp. as long as it is moving) so i never have to battle to go out. we're using a harness now too for ds2 and he's learning to deal with it, as he realizes there's no choice (we let him pick it out too so i think he feels it is HIS.)

now, if only he would sleep!


----------



## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

how old is your ds?


----------



## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

That sounds so hard. My ds has his moments like you describe but he's older now. My main observation is that he is much worse when we are at home. He needs a lot of outside stimulation. So I can take him to a parade or the children's farm or whatever and he'll be fine but at home he'll be getting into constant mischief. This may not work for your son, and I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it might work. Do you have a stroller that he will stay in? Or how about a harness? I know they are controversial though. So that's my advise. Try to find a way to get out of the house. Good luck.


----------



## Italiamom (Mar 18, 2009)

DS is 26 months. He's getting as much sleep as we can muster. We tried elimination dieting to address some sleep issues when he was about 1, but once we can get him to go to sleep, he actually sleeps okay (compared to how he used to sleep). He wakes up a couple times a night, usually for just a minute, and then goes right back to sleep with a sip of water and a little reassurance from daddy. He'll sleep for about 9-10 hours. We've tried routines, and those just seem to backfire. Anything that's part of a routine preceding something he doesn't like, he'll stop wanting to do. We used to try to do bath, snack, brush teeth, read, and then sleep. But he figured out that baths were part of the sequence before bed, and that became a no go. He also stopped wanting to read at all, because he associated reading with bedtime.

I guess a lot of my frustration comes in enforcement, because there are a lot of things I can't make him do without hurting him. It's wonderful that folks can get their kids to sit in a chair... I can't. He will physically fight anything he doesn't want to do. With the carseat and high chair I can strap him in, but anywhere else... nuh uh. I can't make him lie down in his bed. I can hold him down, but that strikes me as wrong, and counter productive.

For example, at the daycare, how do they enforce a timeout? What are the consequences if your LO doesn't do what's asked, or won't choose between two very simple choices? Will your LO just willingly sit in a timeout chair? Because mine won't. And I don't exactly know what to do for consequences except for time out (and spanking, which isn't an option in our house).

For timeout I can hold him to the chair (again, not really willing to hold him down), or I can "lock" him in the bedroom, where he'll either scream indefinitely trying to open the door, or he'll immediately find a way to get into mischief (climbing on the dressers, jumping on the bed, pulling things off of shelves). And it's not a matter of letting him settle himself down and walking away. The boy can cry for over an hour (which I know, because I tried to hold him in bed with me once for naptime, very unsettling, and he screamed and physically fought me for over an hour). So when I put him in "timeout," either I have to stand there holding the door shut, or it's suddenly quiet and I know he's destroying something. We live in a small 2 bedroom house, so having a bedroom that only has a bed, and nothing else in it, isn't an option. There's nothing in his bedroom that can hurt him per se, except maybe jumping off the bed. The dressers are bolted to the wall, but I still don't want him climbing on them. And then when he comes out of time out, he has a vendetta, I guess. It's not like he's learned, "okay, I shouldn't do that, there will be consequences." It's as though he's keeping tally for the day, and the more I try to get him to cooperate, the more bound and determined he is to be bad.

I guess, what do you do for consequences, if your LO will physically not cooperate with you?


----------



## Italiamom (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> That sounds so hard. My ds has his moments like you describe but he's older now. My main observation is that he is much worse when we are at home. He needs a lot of outside stimulation. So I can take him to a parade or the children's farm or whatever and he'll be fine but at home he'll be getting into constant mischief. This may not work for your son, and I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it might work. Do you have a stroller that he will stay in? Or how about a harness? I know they are controversial though. So that's my advise. Try to find a way to get out of the house. Good luck.


He loves the stroller. And he would sit in it for hours. Before I got pregnant, I would usually spend about an hour each day on a run, and usually another 2 hours walking places. But I'm about 6 months pregnant, with some pretty bad pelvic issues, so our walking these days is minimal. Out of the stroller, in public, it's even worse than at home. It's the same awful behavior, except then it's in front of all the disapproving parents at the park/museum/farm. In public he gets beyond wild... There's no listening at all, and trying to wrestle him back into the stroller in front of other parents is so deeply embarrassing because he's so strong and fights so hard once he's out. Really, just being in public with him, anywhere, is usually a nightmare unless I'm walking. And if the stroller stops moving for more than a minute, he freaks out as well. I don't think a harness would work for him either, even if they weren't controversial... I'm guessing it would upset him and make him worse.

I think it will be better for everyone once I have this baby and my pelvis goes back to normal and can spend more time walking each day. But for now we're pretty much housebound, and of course it gets harder and harder for me to wrestle him into his carseat, or back into the stroller, the bigger I get.


----------



## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I didn't realise you were pregnant. That definitely makes it a lot harder. But at least it's temporary! Just do what you have to do to get through this, even if it means TV all day and a messy house. It sounds like he is going stir crazy but since there doesn't seem to be a good solution to that you'll just have to deal with what you have. Can you get anyone to make your yard at least safe for him? Move the logpile. etc? Forget about the plants this year. Maybe get a few more outdoor toys but don't stop him from doing anything else he wants. Or use reverse psychology 'you can pull up those plants but please don't dig in that dirt'. Just kidding (sort of, I might actually try that). Another solution might be getting a teen to come round and play with him. A high energy boy might be a good match. Anyway, I feel for you. Hope you get some peace.


----------



## NZJMama (May 11, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Italiamom*
> 
> DH pretty severely injured his back in January, and is only now able to occasionally pick DS up, or occasionally help with chores. He's happy to read with DS in the evenings, or watch TV, or sit on the floor at the play kitchen. But he can't do anything really that involves his back. Bathtime is up to me. I try to go out for a while each day, but I dread coming home. It's always back to a messy house, and the inevitable bedtime battles, which are the worst part of my day.
> 
> When I give him choices, like "draw, or read?" He doesn't want to do either. Ever. Either he'll come up with his own idea, and I'll go with it if it doesn't involve destroying something. OR he scowls, and he'll just stand there. Sometimes he'll scowl for a minute before he turns around and pouts. This is if I offer choices as a simple, "what to do?" and not as a redirection. I can offer dozens of choices, and it's never a go. Or I can say, "fine, mommy is going to go and clean until you want to play." And then he'll throw a fit. If I'm interrupting bad behavior (like drawing on the wall, as an example), and I say, "Let's draw on the easel instead, or we can go read a book," he will lunge at the wall and furiously scribble as quickly as possible before I can physically take the pens away. The kid has an incredible grip. And then he'll scream about it for 20 minutes. This is where I'm getting really frustrated, because I see "redirection, redirection" over and over again. But it NEVER works. It's like, to MY toddler, it's just a laughable attempt on my part. And I want to say yes. I've let him destroy a lot of things, because I had been saying no all day. But I can't have him destroying MY books, I can't have him drawing on the walls. I can't have him playing with the scissors on my sewing table. I can't have him playing with outlets. He plays with things all day that he really probably shouldn't, which leaves me feeling exasperated, but I try to say yes as much as I can. I just feel like every time I say yes, I'm saying yes to something I should really say no to, only because it will be another battle if I try to redirect him to something he can do.


You sound totally overwhelmed and I can relate. I have been there at one time or another with all three of my kiddos. I assume that he has lots of toys, but is it possible that he is bored with them or has outgrown them. It sounds like he is playing with inappropriate things, perhaps it's out of boredom? Maybe some new toys would help? I only let my kids have whatever toys will fit on our toyshelf out at a time. The rest I pack up in bins and store in the closet. Every few weeks I go through and rotate the toys. I have found with fewer toys they actually play with them longer and take better care of them. Bringing the "new" toys out is super exciting for them because they get to play with old favorites. Another suggestion is a sensory tub with some rice or pasta and a few trucks or measuring spoons. Pretty much anything. Keeps my kids occupied for hours, even my 6yo. Yes, I usually have a mess to sweep up after, but as long as they aren't throwing things on the ground I let it go. If they do throw things on the floor (which they do at times) I put the sensory tub away and have them clean up the mess to the best of their ability. Then next time, I remind them to keep it on the table and we try again.

As far as the choices, I would give him two choices if he doesn't want either of those than he doesn't get to make the choice and you make the choice for him. He doesn't get to add another option. He probably wont be happy about it, but he will quickly learn to listen and respect what you are saying. As long as he is safe, I would let him throw the fit and try to igmore it or say something like "wow, you're really frustrated right now, let me know when you want to talk"

With the scissors example I would say "these are Mommy's scissors, here's yours." If he didn't want to use his than he doesn't get to use any scissors. Then I would place the sewing scissors out of reach so it's not an issue. If he draws on the walls the crayons go away. Everything has a consequence and you have to follow through. I also will attempt to explain to my kids that my job is to keep you safe and teach you to make good choices. Sometimes that means that you will be mad at me, but I always love you no matter what. In other words, I try to empathize with their feelings without giving in.

As I read through this I hope I didn't make it sound like any of this is simple. The concept is simple, the reality is always much more complicated. And I know that when I am in the middle of a battle with one of my kids I struggle to stay calm and see things objectively. I hope some of the responses you've gotten here help.


----------



## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

to answer your q about the time out chair: i had to force him to sit in the chair at first but now he sits there until we tell him to come off. it took a lot less time than i thought it would. it's just a matter of repetition until he listens and doing my best not to give in if he doesn't like something. i think his brother is a good example for him, bc his big bro is very easy going.

i'm pregnant and dealing with a wilful toddler too, so i know how you feel! i just keep working with him and they just keep working with him at preschool as well. between the 2, he's making huge strides. (to answer your q about preschool) they do a lot of redirecting and reenforcing of rules (if he gets in the way by standing in front of all the other kids at circle time, they ask him to sit on the yellow house picture on the rug. things like that are enough of a distraction and an easy solution for a kid his age that they work.) they try to NEVER chase him but coax him back if he runs off. they're firm when reminding him of rules.

he still has fits which are ignored if possible so that he'll learn there are better ways to get what he wants. it's hard and a lot of work, work, work but i'm hoping it's all going to just *click* one day.


----------



## ednkirstin (Jun 10, 2006)

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this! After having 6 toddlers over the years, I can definitely relate! A couple of thoughts come to mind. I don't think you need to "redirect him." I think you're having a battle of the wills. Here's what I would do: if he starts to throw a tantrum, I'd put him in the high chair and tell him he can't get down until he's going to stop screaming and act nicely. Say this with a very calm (but firm) voice. If his basic needs are met, this is not going to hurt him. He might scream and holler for a while, but once he realizes you're serious he'll stop. You need to try not to let his screaming bother you at this point. He's just mad. If it's really bothering you, put some headphones on. Stay nearby so he can see you and try to stay cheerful. If you get mad, it becomes you against him. But if you can stay calm, you become the teacher to show him that it's not okay to act this way and he's not going to be rewarded when he does. I should tell you will have to do this more than once and it could take a while in the beginning, but if you persevere it will get better.

The other thought I had is that I would not offer a lot of choices at this point, especially with food. He needs you to tell him what he needs. He's just not able to do that for himself at this point. As he begins to learn that you're in charge, you'll be able to slowly give him more freedoms. We have one child in particular who has been difficult in the food area. She's 6 now, and it's still not easy (although getting better). We can't force her to eat, but I don't make special food just for her that she "likes" either. She's offered the same meal as everyone else and if she doesn't eat it, that's her choice. I do make it a point not to make several "battle" meals in a row, but she doesn't know that. The main rule that we have with her is that if she's not eating her healthy food regularly, she's not allowed to have desserts. I don't mean just one day, I mean she'll be grounded for a week or two off of desserts. Your DS is probably a little young to understand this, but you should keep it in mind if it would help down the road. I've alway told my kids that it's not my job to give them food they like, but food that's good for them. That doesn't mean I make a bunch of meals my family doesn't like, it just means I'm looking out for their overall best interest. If we have a meal that most people in my family don't like, I just don't make that one again.

I hope these suggestions will help you some. I can totally relate to being discouraged. I've had my fair share of desperate moments and feeling like a failure. I think all moms feel like that from time to time. So chin up, you can do this and I think you're showing yourself to be a good mom by asking for help!


----------



## Jayray (Oct 13, 2008)

I haven't started using a timeout chair yet, but I'm planning to start. Something I've heard it to put them in the chair, take one step back and then immediately say, "Okay, you can get up now." So you tell them they can get up before they try to get out themselves--you've set the boundary. Then gradually (supposedly) they will stay in the chair longer.

Other than that, I'm not sure what to say. Is he getting a nap during the day?

My son is having a hard time (and I have a newborn) with lots of testing and tantruming. I have a hard time dealing with it, too. I try to redirect a lot and he does have consequences that usually stop the immediate unwanted behavior. There are some activities that I know he likes to do (pouring water in the sink or outside is one he really likes right now) that I try to suggest. I also have really been forced to use the tv sometimes. I have to get things done with the baby and he is just up in my face and the baby's face and I can't do it with him right there.

It really sounds like your son is looking for boundaries, but I don't know what to tell you about how to enforce them.


----------



## Comtessa (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh mama, I couldn't read this and not send a







.

I am going through much the same thing with my DD at the moment; although she's not usually quite as stubborn as your DS, she has her days -- and some of them are truly horrific. I was in tears on the couch ten minutes ago, trying to calm a screaming baby, with a wailing toddler at my feet. I came on MDC to feel like I'm not alone... and I want to tell you, you aren't either! We're all in this together, somehow.

My DH and I had a conversation last night about this issue, in which we looked at each other in confusion and said, "so how do we actually teach this child how to listen to us??" It says something about our culture that we don't even have a frame of reference for how to do this, as parents. And our parents didn't spank us, either, but we weren't wilful, stubborn children like our toddler is. At least, I don't think we were.

This afternoon is a good example of our trouble. I took both kids outside to hang laundry on the clothesline. Several minutes go by in which I try to get her to help hang laundry, while stopping her from a) wrapping the baby's head in his blanket and smothering him, b) taking the laundry down as quickly as I can hang it up, or c) run into the street. Our yard is not fenced and we live on a fairly busy street, so I have to be really strict about how far away from me DD goes when we're in the yard. So I say to her, exasperated, "come back over here by Mama, you're getting too far away." She just grins at me like I'm playing a game, and turns and runs full-tilt towards the street. So I drag her kicking and screaming back into the house, where she lays on the floor wailing "go outside! hang laundry!" And I'm frustrated because I, too, would like to hang up the laundry. But she simply Will Not Listen to me -- and so we're all trapped in the house unless I tie her to the oak tree while we're in the yard. And while I'm sorely tempted to try it, I think the neighbors might call CPS on me.

Most people in our world will offer one of two answers: "give the child a timeout" (or similar gentle discipline) or "one good spanking will teach that kid a lesson." But what happens when you don't have a safe place to put the child for a time out where s/he will stay put? I mean, short of locking the kid in an empty closet, what on earth are you supposed to do? And spanking is NOT an option for us.

So I guess I don't really have any answers, just a big hug to tell you that you are not alone in this. And it WILL get better.


----------



## ednkirstin (Jun 10, 2006)

Hi Comtessa,

I know your frustration as I have experienced it many times. Please know that I have much compassion for parents that are struggling to find solutions to issues like these. I, too, am still learning how to parent and it's definitely the hardest thing I've ever done. My suggestion is not that you run inside to hide, nor do you have to spank your child if you don't want to. BUT, you do need to teach your dd that you're in charge and that she needs to listen. It's especially important if her safety depends on it because of your road. I think the frustration comes in because you're trying to get the laundry done, as we all know it has to be, and we tend to see our children as the distraction from the main task. If you can shift your focus and realize that teaching your child to respect authority is the main task and the laundry is secondary things will come together. I would take a small blanket out next to the clothesline and tell dd that she needs to sit on the blanket (with a few toys) while you hang up the laundry (it's okay to give your children boundaries for a little while). EXPECT her not to listen so that you don't become exasperated when she doesn't. Your purpose at this moment is NOT to accomplish the laundry, but to teach her she needs to listen to you. Proceed to hang up laundry, but pay attention for the first hint of her getting up. As soon as she gets up from the blanket (because you already know she will), tell her no and carefully set her back on her blanket. If it takes staying right next to her and looking at or gently holding her still for her to stay put, then do it. It won't always be like this, but you are teaching her at this moment. She's learning that you mean what you say and you're going to insist that she does it. When she begins to settle in and appears like she's going to stay seated, then try the laundry again. But again, expect her to test you. I don't mean that in a rebellious sort of way, but simply acknowledging that little kids are going to keep trying until they are convinced they've hit a boundary. If you are consistent she will learn to listen to you. DD will never listen to you perfectly, of course, but she will a lot more often. This does take time, but it's so worth it. Then you'll have the freedom to do the laundry or other things and your level of frustration will go down greatly (you won't feel so out of control).

Big hugs...


----------



## NZJMama (May 11, 2011)

ednkirstin - you have such great ideas! Thanks!


----------



## ednkirstin (Jun 10, 2006)

Thank you NJZMama - if there's one thing I've learned about parenting, it's that there's always something to learn.







Take care!


----------



## Comtessa (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Italiamom*
> 
> If I have even the slightest desire for my toddler to do something, it's his mission not to do it. And if I've ever told him not to do something, it's all he wants to do... My toddler has zero desire to please.
> 
> ...


*Italiamom,* I've been thinking about you and your DS since I found this thread yesterday, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that your DS' behavior reminds me a lot of the behavior of a child I nannied for several years ago -- especially the really defiant behavior you describe above.

I have a clear memory of this child coming out of a timeout with a "vendetta," just as you describe it. If I put him in timeout for bad behavior, I could be certain that I'd be paying for it the rest of the day. For him, every attempt at redirection was an annoyance to be ignored. If I forcibly stopped him from doing something (like trying to stir his own eggs at the stove), he would scream, throw and break things, hit his sister, or otherwise act out in totally inappropriate ways. Then I'd have to intervene with that behavior, which would lead to even more extreme acting out, until I'd find myself physically restraining him somewhere in "time out."  At this point, he would refuse to make eye contact with me, would throw himself around in frankly dangerous ways, and would either scream nonstop (if I was asking him to stop) or maintain a spooky silence (if I was asking him to say something - like 'apologize to your sister for hurting her').

I saw most of this behavior between the ages of 2 and 3 1/2. I don't feel like I ever developed any really good strategies for dealing with it; the only thing that saved me from despair was that I was the nanny, not the parent, and I could go somewhere else at the end of the day!

The reason I bring him up is that I recently read a book, Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne, that offered some really interesting strategies for dealing with kids whose behavior falls somewhere in the gray area between normal and abnormal -- including this kind of aggressive/oppositional behavior. When I read it, some of the author's descriptions immediately brought this child to mind -- so much so that I emailed his mom and said, "you should read this book, I think it would help you AND him." The author focuses on how to bring down a child's stress levels and moderate extreme behavior by shifting and simplifying a number of variables in her/his environment. I found it to be really well-written, intuitive and thoughtful. I don't know if it would work for you, but since your DS sounds so much like this other child I know, and I thought of him when I read the book, it might be appropriate for your DS too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ednkirstin*
> 
> I think the frustration comes in because you're trying to get the laundry done, as we all know it has to be, and we tend to see our children as the distraction from the main task. If you can shift your focus and realize that teaching your child to respect authority is the main task and the laundry is secondary things will come together.


*ednkirstin,* thanks for your excellent and sensible advice. That would have been precisely the right way to handle this situation. I'll try this next time!


----------



## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

you are not in an easy spot, so definitely give yourself major kudos for doing so well. and you are doing well.

a lot of folks have tossed a lot of information at you, and the best i can tell you to do is to listen to your heart and instincts . . . and follow through with that.

for my own part, I've had to teach my husband -- who is usually in a battle of wills with DS -- that he needs to "let go."

for example, DS plays with his toys. toys go everywhere and make a huge mess. DH freaks out because it's a huge mess, he wants the whole cosmos to be his way (DH's way). Of course, the toddler does not care *and* it's developmentally appropriate for him to play with toys everywhere. so, who needs to adapt?

right, so your garden. let it go. let him destroy it. you want veggies -- but what is more important? growing veggies or having a kid outside having fun and being relaxed?

move the BBQ, the wood pile, whatever -- or fence them off -- and make the yard a completely safe zone for your child. He needs to be outside. You need him to be outside.

other than that, boundaries in child care situations tend to be about rhythms. Every day is the same. this happens then this happens then this happens. if he fights it, no problem. he does whatever he does, but you do whatever you do. that's it. this happens then ths happens then this happens.

example:

this happens: DS wakes up

Then this happens: Ds goes to the toilet

then this happens: DH gets DS's berries and yogurt out on the table

then this happens: DH/I cook breakfast while DS has berries

then this happens: we have breakfast

then this happens: DH or I go to work (we both work 2.5 days)

then this happens: Dh or I do the household chore, DS gets to play (or do whatever he wants in the house)

then this happens: Dh/i dress DS and we get ready for our outting (to the park, play group, whatever)

then this happens: we go out

then this happens: we come home and have lunch

then this happens: we have indoor play time after lunch

then this happens: we have afternoon walk with a break mid-way for our snack

then this happens: we return home and DS gets his bath and PJs

then this happens: DH/I return home from work and play with DS while the other makes dinner

then this happens: we have dinner

then this happens: brush teeth

then this happens: story time

then this happens: last nursing and bed time

then this happens: grown up time

then this happens: bed time.

It's always the same, every day. the only thing that changes is what we eat and where we go on any given day. BUT it's the same each week. Thursday is always play group. Tuesday is always grocery run. Monday is swimming lessons. Same every week. Food is also the same. Friday is always fish. Monday is always venison. breakfast is always the same -- always.

It helps my son feel secure. He doesn't have to fight, he's in the flow. In between times when I need him to do things (get dressed, get out the door to catch the bus), he is so amicable because he knows what is coming. he knows that play time has ended, and now it's time to go out, and he knows we'll come back and he'll get to play again.

This security and the freedom to choose once he's in the house keeps him calm and steady.

And, I have set up my house so that he can't mess it up. The toys he as access to are toys he can play with. The house is set up for him to play there (he mostly plays on the floor anyway). Anything we don't want him to get into is up high, usually hidden away. Art and crafts we always do together -- absoltuely supervised. I tried to let him just do it, but he would paint on walls, furniture, etc, and have a conniption if i redirected to paper, or redirected to another activity. So, I just gave up crafting with him for now. He can always come back to it, or it's something we do together.

But at this age (2 yrs and up), you pretty much do your thing and he does his thing.

DS makes a mess in our courtyard, in our house with his toys, and he's free to do so. We have tidy away times throughout the day, so things get reordered, but otherwise, he is free.

When DS feels secure and has free play, he's happy as can be. And everyone's needs get met.

Anyway, that's me. I wish you the best of luck -- and you'll figure this out.


----------



## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

oh, and i forgot to add, from the Simplicity Parenting reference, we discovered that it is very lucky for our son that we are minimalists.

He has very few toys, and we keep our house very minimally decorated, very clean and free of clutter, because this sort of thing overstimulates him.

My son's personality is such that he takes everything in when he goes into a room. It's like he catalogues it. When he goes into the room a second time, he can tell you the one thing that has changed, even if'ts as tiny as "there's a spider on the far wall next to the sink" -- something the rest of us would not notice.

our parent coach (yes, we needed one, because DH and DS were at odds due to increased tension/anxiety that DH was under) came to do an observation at our home and felt that we had definitely done the right thing by living minimally. She asserted that even the most basic (waldorf) kindergardens might be too stimulating for him with multiple pastel colors, pictures for their name plates above their hooks, and their multiple play areas! She even admitted that the play room at her play group (which DS attends) may be too stimulating for him.

She encouraged us to decrease choices. When he was over stimulated, he was stressed, and this lead to being fractious. When DH's temper was up (due to stress), the two of them together would stir each other up into fits of anger and aggressive behaviors (DH yelling and whining alternate; DS hitting, kicking, biting, jumping on dad, screaming at him, etc).

BY decreasing options, by keeping the place clean and simple, and by having a strong, simple rhythm through the day and week, DS feels much more at ease and secure.

He also has to be outside at least 2-3 hrs per day or he goes haywire. Which is why I suggested having the back yard just safe for him. sometimes, it's what you have to do. (btw, DS picked all of the flowers off of our little pot plants and brought them into the house today. we put them in a glass. he was very proud to bring me flowers, even though I was sad to see them off my pot plants. Oh well. his happiness is more important than my pot plants.  ).


----------



## ednkirstin (Jun 10, 2006)

I can see some benefit to what you're saying, Zoebird, especially about minimizing toys. I've always found my kids do better with fewer toys. And I think structure can be important in the lives of children. However, the kind of schedule you keep sounds very unrealistic, if not impossible when you have more than one child in the family. Children have different needs at different stages and you can't always plan every move. And trust me, I've tried since I homeschool as well. My potty training toddler just couldn't seem to figure out that it was the wrong time to poop their pants when I was trying to teach math to big sis. After cleaning up, our scheduled time would be up (this is obviously just an example, but I've dealt with situations like this over and over). So, do I teach math or move on because of the schedule?

I'm very glad that your schedule works for you, and it could be very helpful to others who are in situations like yours. I know that having the same meal on a specific weeknight can really simplify things and make it easier. It's something I've done from time to time, although I like too many different foods to stick with it for the long term. It's a good option to remember, though, if you're having a particularly hectic time period (such as a new baby).

Italiamom, I hope things are going a little better for you!


----------

