# Sad Thing I See All the Time



## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

The other day, I was at the grocery store. I was in the parking lot, and a car pulled up next to me. They had a little baby, I imagine no more than 3 months old. He was strapped in to a car seat, but the car seat was sideways so he was facing the door, without a seatbelt on it, not rear facing or anything.







It made me so sad. I see that situation over and over here, from young children as young as 18-ish months sitting in the front seat not in a carseat, not wearing a seatbelt, going down the highway that goes through our town, little *little* children moving between the front seats/back seats while the car is moving, etc. It makes me so sad.


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## Rsmom (Sep 26, 2008)

Yeah, it is sad. I saw (this was a while ago) a woman in a minivan, one of those ones with the very large windshield, holding an infant on her lap in the passenger seat. I don't get it.


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

What got me was the other day I saw a woman leaving the store I work at, put her daughter in the installed seat, and not bother to buckle it before she closed the door and drove away. I just didn't understand. She's already in the seat, how long does it take to buckle her?


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## Tilia (Nov 18, 2006)

I am lucky to say that I have never seen that.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

I see it all the time over here. With the local culture (I live in Okinawa, Japan) its their custom. They believe that the safest place for a child is in the mothers arms. I never see young kids buckled in if its a local person. What I don't get is when I see Americans not buckle in their kids. Its not part of our culture (not that Im saying its a good reason not to buckle but its hard to fight against at times) and we know the risks.


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## PatchChild (Sep 1, 2006)

Yikes! People still do that?


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## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

I really haven't seen unbuckled babies, or kids climbing back and forth between seats, but what I have heard about, almost weekly during the summer, is people leaving their children in cars while they run in the store for "just a second." It's ended tragically in way to many situations







.


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## Summertime Mommy (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
What got me was the other day I saw a woman leaving the store I work at, put her daughter in the installed seat, and not bother to buckle it before she closed the door and drove away. I just didn't understand. She's already in the seat, how long does it take to buckle her?

I have done this before by accident. I'll set dd down and then completely forget to buckle her. I'll gett half way down the road and realize she was never buckled in.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Summertime Mommy* 
I have done this before by accident. I'll set dd down and then completely forget to buckle her. I'll gett half way down the road and realize she was never buckled in.

I have done the same thing! We were out for dinner and my brother put my son in his baby seat in the van. Only about 5km into our trip did I realize. I immediately strapped the seat in. About 5km from there a drunk driver hit us and my son would have been severely injured or dead had I not realized! Thank God!

In South Africa I saw MANY parents doing that, or kids just not strapped in at ALL. Here in Canada I haven't noticed it!


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

I see stuff like that around here too. I've seen people turn the "bucket" car seats around to face forwards, big toddlers in bucket seats that only go up to 20 lbs, unbuckled kids, etc.

One time, my son (who was maybe 6 at the time) came home and told me that the neighbor girl said she gets to ride in the front seat and her mom doesn't make her wear her seat belt. I said something like "Oh, she might be exaggerating." Then the next day, the neighbor drives by with her 6 yo in the front with no seat belt on. That just really blew me away because I guess I had assumed that the people doing this were uneducated about car seats, or couldn't afford a car seat, etc. But the neighbor woman is in general a smart lady, knew about boosters, and I even remember her once telling me that she was very cautious about car seats.

I think some people do this out of ignorance but there must be a group that just does it because they think it's just a short trip, what could happen? or whatever.


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

I will call the police. I think it's worth the 75 cent fee to call 411 for whatever juristiction I happen to be in. I called once on the interstate - the kids were in a smaller car, bouncing around on the backseat, and one was lying down in the back window.

Is it ambivalence? I can't believe that people believe that that is OK.


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## pumpkinmom2 (Apr 29, 2008)

i feel the same way about carseats, however i must admit one time on a long car trip my 4yo son got soooo car sick he was clawing at the windows screaming LET ME OUT OF HERE!! like it was extreme torture. he was throwing up and we were too far to turn back. we were closer to our destination than home, so we needed to get there and let him calm down. the only thing that helps me when i am carsick is being up front. so i made the decision to hold him on my lap in the front seat. i felt guilty and worried the whole time, but it worked, he feel asleep and luckily we made it there.

the things pp'ers decribed are just mindleess and risky, but i did it out of what i consider, necessity.


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## Rose79 (Oct 20, 2008)

I always call the police.

A few years ago, a friend of mine lost a grandchild to a car accident as she was buckled in a carseat in the front seat.

I would rather someone hate me for a ticket, than turn away and ignore it.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

Wow!! I can honestly say I have never seen this. People are very cautious around here. My 9yo just recently came out of a booster. That is the norm here.

If I ever did see it, it would really really bother me.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
What got me was the other day I saw a woman leaving the store I work at, put her daughter in the installed seat, and not bother to buckle it before she closed the door and drove away. I just didn't understand. She's already in the seat, how long does it take to buckle her?


I don't know, my daughter buckles herself, and has since she was 3...and at 3 she was 21lbs and under 30"...and rear facing, so she could be buckling herself! Though, not likely, it is possible!

The one I saw last week, and I so wished I hadn't forgotten my phone, a woman left her 4 kids, the oldest being 4, in the car alone for at LEAST 15 minutes, cause that's how long I waited by the car for her to return...and she had an entire cart of groceries when she came back. The one kid was crying, and the 4 year old was yelling trying to get every single complete stranger who walked by to stop and talk to her, which was the scariest part of it...


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.








Let the flaming begin.


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## momtokea (Oct 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.








Let the flaming begin.

Well, I don't want to flame you, or judge you. Do whatever you are comfortable with.

For me, 22 years ago I was in a car accident where the car rolled. Had I not been buckled in I would be dead. It still haunts me to this day. Last January my husband was in a car accident that totalled his 3/4 ton Dodge Ram. He walked away, but is still in pain daily and goes for physio and chiro regularly. He was buckled. My cousin was killed in a car accident, he was not buckled, my neighbor can't walk from hitting a deer on the highway on his motorcycle. Accidents happen in a split second and they are life changing. If anything happened to my child in a vehicle due to my negligence I would kill myself.

My kids cried when they needed to be nursed. We pulled over where we could and took care of their needs. It took a few minutes and we were on our way again.

I don't consider myself a "good" mother because I do these things. I also don't buckle my child because "it's the law", or because it's "popular opinion". I would do it anyway. I do it because I know that it takes a split second and life can change.

I do it because that is what I am comfortable with. My children are precious to me. Everyone else can do whatever they are comfortable with, too. It doesn't make any sense to me that anyone would be comfortable risking their child's life







, but obviously some people are.


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## ~mermommy~ (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm appalled!

Ok, I asked hubby, (who is an officer!) if they can do anything about this, and he said CALL!!!! its child endangerment and the police will do something! possibly even arrest, if the situation is very bad.


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## Jezzy (Sep 20, 2006)

I have seen this a lot too. I have actually seen someone get pulled over for this. I was really happy about that. I wonder why these people risk the lives of their children like this?


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

Co-sleeping and not vaccinating are NOT the same as not buckling a child in a moving vehicle. Motor vehicle accidents are the #1 killer of children, whereas co-sleeping and not vaccinating are not dangerous to children. Even if some people think they are, that is opinion where there is no opinion needed for whether or not MV accidents are dangerous. It's proven that MV accidents injure/kill and proven that not being restrained increases the risk of injury or death.


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## Beckula (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
Co-sleeping and not vaccinating are NOT the same as not buckling a child in a moving vehicle. Motor vehicle accidents are the #1 killer of children, whereas co-sleeping and not vaccinating are not dangerous to children. Even if some people think they are, that is opinion where there is no opinion needed for whether or not MV accidents are dangerous. It's proven that MV accidents injure/kill and proven that not being restrained increases the risk of injury or death.









:

Not to mention the fact that you could be the world's best driver or riding with the world's best driver and still get into an accident due to some one else. Ummm large heavy vehicles + high speeds = very painful and often fatal crashes when they screw up. Not a chance I would be willing to take.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

We see it ALL the time down here. And scarier still are the people who bring their children& eve young babies on their motorcycles with no helmets.

But what living here & seeing the absolute huge difference in opinions/practice regarding vehicle safety is that somewhere there is a happy medium between the total disregard we see here & what is imho over the top vigilance back home.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Unfortunately I see situations like the OP's quite a bit where I live. It seems to be more of a problem with other kids, like a 3 year old in a seat belt only, that type of thing.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Putting your child in a car seat is a very easy to keep them safe. I just don't get people who don't do it. I see this every morning and afternoon at the bus stop. My son is the only one who sits in the backseat with his booster seat. And he's only 6! Most of the kids, who are all 5-7, sit in the front seat or sometimes the backseat with no seat belts.

I just don't get it.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:

Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.
Not flaming you, but asking this sincerely: What would a situation be where stopping is "not an option"? The only thing I can think of where I'd take my baby out of the car seat would be if he were choking or somehow in immediate danger & we were on a highway with no shoulder to pull over on? But I don't think that's the kind of situation you're talking about.

I do realize that people's perception of these risks varies, and it does not mean they are bad parents or don't care about safety. My MIL unbuckled my 2 month old baby in the car because he was crying. She was in the backseat and I was looking for somewhere to pull over, but she did not wait and unbuckled him without asking or telling me. I was furious. She had no idea why I would be upset. It boggled my mind...


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

My dc are always in thier seats and belted (OK so I've forgotten to strap them in on occasion, but I was usually suffering from overtired at the time) Except this ONE time in hurricane traffic in Montgomery (or was ait Burmingham? I always get those two mixed up) Alabama. There was NO option to pull over on the crammed highway and #1 son had monster diarhea and a very very bad rash; it was about this time that we discovered he was alergic to Talcum powder. So of course he had a major blowout. Poor thing was in terrible pain. I was yelling at DH to pull over, but like I said... there was nowhere to go. So I unbuckled myself, hopped over the console and changed his diaper in the footwell. I've never done it before or since. At any rate, the kids should always be buckled in. It's just safer.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think judging peole in other countries and cultures by American standards/laws is wrong.

I suspect many of us have failed to buckle seat belts or put the seat down sideways for a second to do something and then forgotten to turn it correctly and buckle it. Sleep deprivation can make the best memories into sieves. And many children can buckle their own seats. There are situations where people are making poor choices, but its really hard to tell about the exact situation you are looking at many times. I might consider a call for someone that I see frequently who I know is routinely making poor car safety decisions. But other than that, IMHO, you don't know the situation and its not anyone's business.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

My BF does not wear a seatbelt because he has been in two accidents where he would have died if he had been buckled in and unable to get out of his seat FAST..

However seatbelts are generally a good idea. Most accidents aren't the type where you need to get out of your seat; they're the type where you need to not smack your head on the wind shield.

This is one topic I feel comfortable being pretty judgemental about. A loose child in a car accident is almost sure to die - their tiny bodies become missiles. A small fender-bender could instantly kill an infant. To me even a few miles without a secure car seat are an unacceptable risk. It makes me feel sick with fear when I see loose children in a car..

I hesitate to call anyone a 'bad' parent, but it's very sad to me when people don't understand risks and take appropriate steps to protect their children.

So many people die (many more are injured) in car accidents every year, but people still don't see cars as dangerous. They really are. The number one cause of accidental death, by a very large margin.


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinmom2* 
i feel the same way about carseats, however i must admit one time on a long car trip my 4yo son got soooo car sick he was clawing at the windows screaming LET ME OUT OF HERE!! like it was extreme torture. he was throwing up and we were too far to turn back. we were closer to our destination than home, so we needed to get there and let him calm down. the only thing that helps me when i am carsick is being up front. so i made the decision to hold him on my lap in the front seat. i felt guilty and worried the whole time, but it worked, he feel asleep and luckily we made it there.

the things pp'ers decribed are just mindleess and risky, but i did it out of what i consider, necessity.

I'm sorry you were in this situation. However, pulling over and giving the child a break would be better than risking your child's life. If you were in an accident, your arms couldn't keep your child from flying through the windshield as effectively as the car seat could.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

Not flaming you, but asking this sincerely: What would a situation be where stopping is "not an option"?
Well, in my case, it's because I don't have a car & my mom refuses to stop. She gets pissy just stopping long enough to rescue a baby from the seat & get back into the front with them. I'd rather hold my baby & nurse him/calm him, then put him back in the seat than leave him to scream his heart out until he passes out for the 2 hour drive to my mom's place. When we had to go 8 hours away to bury my grandmother when ds2 was 6 weeks old, I had to pump before the drive & sit in the back (it was just the baby & I so I could sit in back with him) and nurse with him in the seat when I ran out of pumped milk.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Hope the op doesn't mind me somewhat hijacking









I'm going to Sri Lanka for three weeks. My MIL told me not to bother bringing the carseat because it is not necessary to use in Sri Lanka. I was totally bummed by this. My mom says "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". My mom also told me that I used to stand in the middle of the buckets seats up front in her VW bug back in the early 70's. She thinks it's a small percentage of a risk and not to worry.

What do you momma's think?


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

You know a sad thing a saw just today a boy about 8 years old sleeping on the street, I went to delier some papers to a goverment office and there he was sleeping just outside the door he was all dirty no shoes. Now that was really really sad.


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

I was transfering a foster baby to her mom for an overnight visit. The foster dad forgot to load the carseat on the ferry. Mom just drove off with the her friend and, her and the baby in the back seat. I had to call the police because of the position I was in. But as a mother, I ve taken the bus instead. I have nursed with the baby IN the car seat, I am not sure it was very safe for ME but the baby was.

And yes 8 year olds sleeping outside is very sad, but shouldn't you start your own thread?


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.








Let the flaming begin.


To me, my kids lives are more important than them being happy for those few minutes when I find somewhere safe to stop. Now, there was a 3 hour road trip from my mom back to our house when Kincaid was 4 months old that actually took us almost 8 hours, cause we could only drive 15 minutes before he was screaming again, we'd get off at the next exit, nurse him and calm him down, then put him back in his seat again and drive for another 15 minutes, but there is never a point that I would do something as unsafe as driving with an unrestrained child, I would never ever forgive myself if something happened, their lives are worth more than that to me, much more than that.


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## LittleBlessings (May 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Summertime Mommy* 
I have done this before by accident. I'll set dd down and then completely forget to buckle her. I'll gett half way down the road and realize she was never buckled in.


I have also done this once by accident but would never ever do it on purpose.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
To me, my kids lives are more important than them being happy for those few minutes when I find somewhere safe to stop.


Well, my chiildren's lives are really important to me too







However, we all must weigh the risks versus benefits. I ahve taken my babies out of their carseats, when they are crying hysterically. To me, its a matter of _definite_ emotional harm versus _potential_ physical harm. I nurse for several years, cosleep (probably longer than most here), babywear and never ever spank. How my kids _feel_ is pretty much the most important thing to me. You are not guaranteed to be in an accident. A baby crying uncontrollably while seeming to get no response is sure to do emotional damage.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
To me, my kids lives are more important than them being happy for those few minutes when I find somewhere safe to stop. Now, there was a 3 hour road trip from my mom back to our house when Kincaid was 4 months old that actually took us almost 8 hours, cause we could only drive 15 minutes before he was screaming again, we'd get off at the next exit, nurse him and calm him down, then put him back in his seat again and drive for another 15 minutes, but there is never a point that I would do something as unsafe as driving with an unrestrained child, I would never ever forgive myself if something happened, their lives are worth more than that to me, much more than that.

Yes to this! I have ALWAYS pulled over to nurse and it was always an option. Why would it NOT be an option?







I began my nursing career working in the ER as an RN for six months and I have seen with own eyes what those bodies look like coming in without a seatbelt, and it is not pretty. It is a PROVEN FACT infants, children and adults are safer with a seatbelt in place. I just don't understand WHY people do not obey this simple law. I just can't understand why.....







:














:


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Well, my chiildren's lives are really important to me too







However, we all must weigh the risks versus benefits. I ahve taken my babies out of their carseats, when they are crying hysterically. To me, its a matter of _definite_ emotional harm versus _potential_ physical harm. I nurse for several years, cosleep (probably longer than most here), babywear and never ever spank. How my kids _feel_ is pretty much the most important thing to me. You are not guaranteed to be in an accident. A baby crying uncontrollably while seeming to get no response is sure to do emotional damage.


But that possible physical damage is their lives, nothing to me is more important than that, losing my child to something that is 100% my fault is not something I could ever deal with! But, I do get off and park somewhere safe (not the shoulder of the road) and nurse them, I do not ever let them cry (well, Kincaid cried for 6 months straight, and me holding/nursing him made him cry more...but that has nothing to do with this, and we tried EVERYTHING to stop him from crying), we co-sleep, I nurse till self weaning, I will never spank, Travis is always worn still at 15 months (though, now that I'm on bedrest, wearing won't be happening...but of course, we also won't be leaving the house), we have never let a kid CIO...we definitely care about their emotional well being, but not enough to actually risk their lives for it.

Of course, I wouldn't get in a car with someone who didn't care enough about either my kids emotional health or their physical health to not park somewhere as soon as they started crying!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Well, my chiildren's lives are really important to me too







However, we all must weigh the risks versus benefits. I ahve taken my babies out of their carseats, when they are crying hysterically. To me, its a matter of _definite_ emotional harm versus _potential_ physical harm. I nurse for several years, cosleep (probably longer than most here), babywear and never ever spank. How my kids _feel_ is pretty much the most important thing to me. You are not guaranteed to be in an accident. A baby crying uncontrollably while seeming to get no response is sure to do emotional damage.

The only options aren`t let bay cry uncontrollably or take them out of the seat. Many people stop and take their babies out of the seat to nurse or whatever.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

*Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.*

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.








Let the flaming begin.

Abbie, what you do with your children is your own choice.

BUT I have a questions for you:

There is research that show that we are in fact NOT endangering our children's lives by doing this (the bit in bold from your original quote). Is there similar research to show that being out of a car seat is in fact not dangerous?

I'm just wondering why you are comparing these two issues?


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

I usually don't read the car seat threads because I don't really understand the holier than thou attitude that some of the posters have.
Putting your child in a car to go anywhere is putting them at risk. Yes the risk of death in an accident is far greater if they are not buckled in their car seat but you are still putting them at great risk even buckled into their britax.
So unless you only drive your kids in life or death situations I don't get the attitude.
If I came on here complaining that I was appalled that my neighbor drove her three kids to the park today and I can't believe that she is willing to risk her life and theirs just to go to the park I wonder what kind of reaction I would get.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
The only options aren`t let bay cry uncontrollably or take them out of the seat. Many people stop and take their babies out of the seat to nurse or whatever.

and some babies cry every time they are in the seat wether they have just nursed or not. And some people with more than one child without access to public transportation must drive places from time to time, like doctors appointments, etc...

I had a child that would cry every. single. time he was in the car seat. Of course I severly limited our driving, but there were times it was unavoidable, and so, occasionally I would take him out of the seat and hold him or nurse him. I'm positive each of you do things with your children I wouldn't approve of


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
I usually don't read the car seat threads because I don't really understand the holier than thou attitude that some of the posters have.
Putting your child in a car to go anywhere is putting them at risk. Yes the risk of death in an accident is far greater if they are not buckled in their car seat but you are still putting them at great risk even buckled into their britax.
So unless you only drive your kids in life or death situations I don't get the attitude.
If I came on here complaining that I was appalled that my neighbor drove her three kids to the park today and I can't believe that she is willing to risk her life and theirs just to go to the park I wonder what kind of reaction I would get.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
I usually don't read the car seat threads because I don't really understand the holier than thou attitude that some of the posters have.
Putting your child in a car to go anywhere is putting them at risk. Yes the risk of death in an accident is far greater if they are not buckled in their car seat but you are still putting them at great risk even buckled into their britax.
So unless you only drive your kids in life or death situations I don't get the attitude.
If I came on here complaining that I was appalled that my neighbor drove her three kids to the park today and I can't believe that she is willing to risk her life and theirs just to go to the park I wonder what kind of reaction I would get.

Well I don't believe it is a "holier than thou" attitude at all. This poster was shocked that she saw children *unrestrained* in a moving vehicle. No one is arguing that driving is a risk, hell walking outside is dangerous in some areas of the world, but what I, and some here as well, don't understand is WHY parents don't buckle their children? WHY not try to help prevent an accident. You don't know when an accident might happen. Today. Tomorrow. Hopefully never. It just seems so senseless not to buckle your child in a safety seat I think. Not a holier than thou attitude at all.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Well I don't believe it is a "holier than thou" attitude at all. This poster was shocked that she saw children *unrestrained* in a moving vehicle. No one is arguing that driving is a risk, hell walking outside is dangerous in some areas of the world, but what I, and some here as well, don't understand is WHY parents don't buckle their children? WHY not try to help prevent an accident. You don't know when an accident might happen. Today. Tomorrow. Hopefully never. It just seems so senseless not to buckle your child in a safety seat I think. Not a holier than thou attitude at all.

Right, driving is a definite risk, but it is a MUCH larger risk to do so unrestrained.... I don't see how someone could not see the HUGE difference there.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bmcneal* 
The other day, I was at the grocery store. I was in the parking lot, and a car pulled up next to me. They had a little baby, I imagine no more than 3 months old. He was strapped in to a car seat, but the car seat was sideways so he was facing the door, without a seatbelt on it, not rear facing or anything.







It made me so sad. I see that situation over and over here, from young children as young as 18-ish months sitting in the front seat not in a carseat, not wearing a seatbelt, going down the highway that goes through our town, little *little* children moving between the front seats/back seats while the car is moving, etc. It makes me so sad.









WOW.. I never see anything like that!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
and some babies cry every time they are in the seat wether they have just nursed or not. And some people with more than one child without access to public transportation must drive places from time to time, like doctors appointments, etc...

I had a child that would cry every. single. time he was in the car seat. Of course I severly limited our driving, but there were times it was unavoidable, and so, occasionally I would take him out of the seat and hold him or nurse him. I'm positive each of you do things with your children I wouldn't approve of









My dd was like this. We tried not to drive at all, but there are necessities and we don't have local public transportation. I never took her out of the seat whild driving, but it was awful. I can understand why you might (take the baby out). The stopping thing, which we frequently did, never solved anything. More than once I threatened to walk 5-10 miles home in a blizzard holding the baby inside my coat so she wouldn't scream all the way home.







It was that hard to listen to, and stopping and calming her only worked until you put her back in the seat. So I understand where you're coming from. It felt like CIO to me (and CIO is something we would never do, including lesser forms of sleep training). It certainly was the same message to my dd: "You are crying hysterically and need me to hold you. I am within proximity but I am intentionally not meeting your needs." Really, truly agonizing.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
My dd was like this. We tried not to drive at all, but there are necessities and we don't have local public transportation. I never took her out of the seat whild driving, but it was awful. I can understand why you might (take the baby out). The stopping thing, which we frequently did, never solved anything. More than once I threatened to walk 5-10 miles home in a blizzard holding the baby inside my coat so she wouldn't scream all the way home.







It was that hard to listen to, and stopping and calming her only worked until you put her back in the seat. So I understand where you're coming from. It felt like CIO to me (and CIO is something we would never do, including lesser forms of sleep training). It certainly was the same message to my dd: "You are crying hysterically and need me to hold you. I am within proximity but I am intentionally not meeting your needs." Really, truly agonizing.









thank you ramona







It sucks to live in a society where cars are mostly a necessity


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I think this is pretty normal in Mexico. Doesn't excuse it here of course.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

I remember a situation when my 6 years old daughter was 7 months old at that time. My ex boyfriend and I were driving on a 7 hours trip to visit some friends there. My daughter wasn't used to a long road trip and she cried frequently on this road trip. My ex boyfriend and I had to pull over a lot just to try to calm her down and nurse her. The trip took forever. We left our place like at 11am in the morning and didn't arrive my friend's house until almost 10pm that night! It was frustrating to us at that time but we knew if I had unbuckled my daughter, we would have been ticketed or put her in danger. At that time, I, even was tempted to just sit in the backseat, unbuckled her just to comfort her but my ex boyfriend refused and told me that he would just rather to pull over and wait until she calms down. I'm glad that he had 10 times patience than I had. He is just a wonderful father to my daughter! I'm so proud that hes my daughter's father.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VroomieMama* 
I remember a situation when my 6 years old daughter was 7 months old at that time. My ex boyfriend and I were driving on a 7 hours trip to visit some friends there. My daughter wasn't used to a long road trip and she cried frequently on this road trip. My ex boyfriend and I had to pull over a lot just to try to calm her down and nurse her. The trip took forever. We left our place like at 11am in the morning and didn't arrive my friend's house until almost 10pm that night! It was frustrating to us at that time but we knew if I had unbuckled my daughter, we would have been ticketed or put her in danger. At that time, I, even was tempted to just sit in the backseat, unbuckled her just to comfort her but my ex boyfriend refused and told me that he would just rather to pull over and wait until she calms down. I'm glad that he had 10 times patience than I had. He is just a wonderful father to my daughter! I'm so proud that hes my daughter's father.

glad it worked for you. I had a child that cried _nonstop_ in the carseat. It didn't matter if we stopped 100 times in a 5 mile trip - if he was in his carseat, he cried. We would have only been able to go as far as it took him to open up and stat crying. I'm so glad that my children's father would never ever let them cry it out and is reasonable and able to weigh risks vs. benefits


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I hesitate to even post on this thread, but I'm finding it incredibly frustrating to read about such flat-out negligence being not only tolerated but praised. My child cried sometimes in the carseat as an infant. It was not CIO. I did not shut her in a dark room alone to wail until she passed out or gave up. I talked to her constantly and stroked her legs. When my dh was driving I always rode in back with her and sometimes stretched around to nurse her while she was still buckled in. I would never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle because I love her-- I want her alive more than I want her happy at every moment. While I strive for both safety and happiness, safety comes first. I'm glad that she'll be alive to forgive me for the inconvenience.


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
I hesitate to even post on this thread, but I'm finding it incredibly frustrating to read about such flat-out negligence being not only tolerated but praised. My child cried sometimes in the carseat as an infant. It was not CIO. I did not shut her in a dark room alone to wail until she passed out or gave up. I talked to her constantly and stroked her legs. When my dh was driving I always rode in back with her and sometimes stretched around to nurse her while she was still buckled in. I would never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle because I love her-- I want her alive more than I want her happy at every moment. While I strive for both safety and happiness, safety comes first. I'm glad that she'll be alive to forgive me for the inconvenience.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

You don't know when an accident might happen. Today. Tomorrow. Hopefully never. It just seems so senseless not to buckle your child in a safety seat I think. Not a holier than thou attitude at all.

Quote:

Right, driving is a definite risk, but it is a MUCH larger risk to do so unrestrained.... I don't see how someone could not see the HUGE difference there.
I agree it is a larger risk but people are saying why would you ever take your screaming infant out of there seat while you are driving. They would never risk their child's life like that. What I am trying to say is you are risking your child's life anytime you drive them in the car. Yes I could have a fatal accident in the time I take my infant out of her seat but you also could have a fatal accident in the time it takes you to drive to the park. Do you still drive to the park or do you only use your car for absolutely necessary trips?
So if someone says they would never risk their child's life by taking them out of their car seat while driving but they are fine driving all over town when they don't need too it strikes me as holier than thou.


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## CattiBrieDourden (Nov 11, 2008)

I've never had to take my daughter out of her carseat while driving...she usually enjoys riding around unless she's really hungry. Guess I'm lucky!

I remember being 3 years old and riding around with my grandfather, standing up next to him in the front seat of his Chevy Nova....I shudder to think of doing that to my child. Yikes!!!


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
Yes I could have a fatal accident in the time I take my infant out of her seat but you also could have a fatal accident in the time it takes you to drive to the park. Do you still drive to the park or do you only use your car for absolutely necessary trips?

A child who is safely and properly secured in a car seat has a VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death in an accident. That is why I feel safe driving my son to the park. If we *were* to get hit, I know that he is as safe as he possibly could be in our vehicle.

But having a child on your lap? That child will be lucky to be alive if someone were to hit you. It is not just a "little bit" more risky, it is almost a certain death if an accident were to happen.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

A child who is safely and properly secured in a car seat has a VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death in an accident. That is why I feel safe driving my son to the park. If we were to get hit, I know that he is as safe as he possibly could be in our vehicle.
An infant taken out of their seat for a few minutes would also statistically have a "VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death."

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Go to the report page and look at the fatality rate for restrained and unrestrained passengers in the car, you might be surprised.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaFox* 
My dc are always in thier seats and belted (OK so I've forgotten to strap them in on occasion, but I was usually suffering from overtired at the time) Except this ONE time in hurricane traffic in Montgomery (or was ait Burmingham? I always get those two mixed up) Alabama. There was NO option to pull over on the crammed highway and #1 son had monster diarhea and a very very bad rash; it was about this time that we discovered he was alergic to Talcum powder. So of course he had a major blowout. Poor thing was in terrible pain. I was yelling at DH to pull over, but like I said... there was nowhere to go. So I unbuckled myself, hopped over the console and changed his diaper in the footwell. I've never done it before or since. At any rate, the kids should always be buckled in. It's just safer.

I dunno- I'm willing to sign off on a Hurricane-Diarrhea exception.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I think that an issue to consider is that on public transportation (bus, trolley, train, and subway for me) my baby is not in a carseat at all. Now I totally realize there is a satistical difference in risks involved in accidents with buses and trains etc. BUT if you are used to taking your kid on the bus with no carseat, I could see thinking that it would be okay to be in the car without a carseat. Both are motor vehicles on the exact same roads going to the same places at the same speeds.

(i always put ds in his carseat, I just think about this everytime I ride public transit, and I think, this is why people think its safe, because sometimes they are told it is safe, not because they are being "bad parents")


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## Beckula (Mar 17, 2007)

Its so nice that you feel safe not putting your kids in a car seat. I hope for your sake and theirs you are never in an accident. I also hope I never see you riding around like that because *I will* call the police to report you, and I will not feel the least bit guilty or wrong for doing so. Good luck.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beckula* 
Its so nice that you feel safe not putting your kids in a car seat. I hope for your sake and theirs you are never in an accident. I also hope I never see you riding around like that because *I will* call the police to report you, and I will not feel the least bit guilty or wrong for doing so. Good luck.

LOLOLOL!!!!!









Are you threatening someone over the internet? It's stuff like this that makes me think people are less concerned about some poor neglected baby's safety and more about feeling super self righteous.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
and some babies cry every time they are in the seat wether they have just nursed or not. And some people with more than one child without access to public transportation must drive places from time to time, like doctors appointments, etc...

I had a child that would cry every. single. time he was in the car seat. Of course I severly limited our driving, but there were times it was unavoidable, and so, occasionally I would take him out of the seat and hold him or nurse him. I'm positive each of you do things with your children I wouldn't approve of









me too. twice. real late on the highway with no one around, still a looonnng way from home.

most of the time we stop.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
My dd was like this. We tried not to drive at all, but there are necessities and we don't have local public transportation. I never took her out of the seat whild driving, but it was awful. I can understand why you might (take the baby out). The stopping thing, which we frequently did, never solved anything. More than once I threatened to walk 5-10 miles home in a blizzard holding the baby inside my coat so she wouldn't scream all the way home.







It was that hard to listen to, and stopping and calming her only worked until you put her back in the seat. So I understand where you're coming from. It felt like CIO to me (and CIO is something we would never do, including lesser forms of sleep training). It certainly was the same message to my dd: "You are crying hysterically and need me to hold you. I am within proximity but I am intentionally not meeting your needs." Really, truly agonizing.









i agree.

and i also have found myself just wishing i could walk the rest of the way home. my husband would never go for it. he'd rather me just take the baby out of the carseat, he'll slow down and drive cautiously and be able to drive ten BAZILLION times better anyway because he's not being wracked by a screaming baby.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

: I didn't realize this would cause such a hot debate...







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

*I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.*

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

*Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?*

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.








Let the flaming begin.

Bolding mine. I was not trying to be judgemental. I am simply concerned. We live in a small town, it's not a "my baby's crying, I'm nursing/holding/swaddling to keep them comforted. (Even though that's not something *I* personally would do.) I see the same people over and over, *not* having their child in any kind of restraint, sometimes hanging halfway out the windows/climbing all around/etc. I worry especially because people here drive worse than in any other place I've ever been, and I worry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
I think judging peole in other countries and cultures by American standards/laws is wrong.

I suspect many of us have failed to buckle seat belts or put the seat down sideways for a second to do something and then forgotten to turn it correctly and buckle it. Sleep deprivation can make the best memories into sieves. And many children can buckle their own seats. There are situations where people are making poor choices, but its really hard to tell about the exact situation you are looking at many times. *I might consider a call for someone that I see frequently who I know is routinely making poor car safety decisions.* But other than that, IMHO, you don't know the situation and its not anyone's business.

We live in a small town, and I *do* see the same people doing that over and over.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
To me, my kids lives are more important than them being happy for those few minutes when I find somewhere safe to stop. Now, there was a 3 hour road trip from my mom back to our house when Kincaid was 4 months old that actually took us almost 8 hours, cause we could only drive 15 minutes before he was screaming again, we'd get off at the next exit, nurse him and calm him down, then put him back in his seat again and drive for another 15 minutes, but there is never a point that I would do something as unsafe as driving with an unrestrained child, I would never ever forgive myself if something happened, their lives are worth more than that to me, much more than that.









: When DD was 10 months old, we went on a roadtrip that in usual circumstances would take 14 hours (stopping every couple hours for gas/stretch/potty/etc.). DD did *not* like riding in her seat, so it took us almost 20 hours to get there, because we kept having to stop to calm her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Well I don't believe it is a "holier than thou" attitude at all. This poster was shocked that she saw children *unrestrained* in a moving vehicle. No one is arguing that driving is a risk, hell walking outside is dangerous in some areas of the world, but what I, and some here as well, don't understand is WHY parents don't buckle their children? WHY not try to help prevent an accident. You don't know when an accident might happen. Today. Tomorrow. Hopefully never. It just seems so senseless not to buckle your child in a safety seat I think. Not a holier than thou attitude at all.









:


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## pastelsummer (Jun 4, 2008)

i had an old friend that buckeld the seat but not the baby! It breaks my heart to think of what would happen if the got in even a fender bender.


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## Miss 1928 (Nov 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
We see it ALL the time down here. And scarier still are the people who bring their children& eve young babies on their motorcycles with no helmets. ....


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Hope the op doesn't mind me somewhat hijacking









I'm going to Sri Lanka for three weeks. My MIL told me not to bother bringing the carseat because it is not necessary to use in Sri Lanka. I was totally bummed by this. My mom says *"when in Rome, do as the Romans do".* My mom also told me that I used to stand in the middle of the buckets seats up front in her VW bug back in the early 70's. She thinks it's a small percentage of a risk and not to worry.

*What do you momma's think?*

I would take the carseat anyway and let everyone laugh at you. I would subscribe to the traditions of the culture _only_ in the cases that do not put my Baby at unnecessary risk, however small its percentage.
Take the carseat.

I _am_ in Rome, and although there are certainly Mammas here that would never put their bambino in a car unrestrained, too often I see babies being held, toddlers and kids scampering about in the back and even front seats with no seat belts. I see this at least once a day, minimum. It makes me very sad.








People will carry their kids on their motercycles, but they (almost) always have helmets. (Except in Napoli and other areas of southern Italy.)

People here always question why Eloisa's car-seat is still RF when she is already over a year old.







I have to explain that it is so much safer for her to be RF, people here .just.don't.know. I don't care if they think I'm odd to keep my LO RF, it's best for her. -- Especially here in Rome, the city of scary drivers!

(My parents used to put my playpen in the back of our big old Plymouth station-wagon and I was back there, standing up, hanging onto the side swaying back and forth, happy as a clam. We drove San Francisco to Portland, Oregon very often like this, in the days before car-seats (I was born in 1967







) Yes, I am fine, and many many of us Mammas who were left unrestrained in car during those days are fine, but we just don't know how many babies were injured or died because of this ignorance.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
....I would never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle because I love her-- *I want her alive more than I want her happy at every moment.* While I strive for both safety and happiness, safety comes first. I'm glad that she'll be alive to forgive me for the inconvenience.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pastelsummer* 
i had an old friend that buckeld the seat but not the baby! It breaks my heart to think of what would happen if the got in even a fender bender.









: I did this exactly ONCE and I was _completely_ mortified to realize that I had driven 20 miles and on the highway without having buckled her in. Eloisa was at work with me, she fell asleep and I put her into her bucket but didn't snap the strap -- assuming I'd do it once I put her in the car when it was time to go -- and then covered her with a blanket. Because of the blanket I didn't realize that I forgot to latch her strap. We were very fortunate that nothing happened, and I thank my lucky stars that all was OK. She was about 4 or 5 months at the time.

FWIW, I honestly don't care if people think that I am "Holier than Thou" if I want to keep my baby safe and I think that _any_ person, babe or grown-up, traveling in a car should wear a seat belt. I will be judgmental if Kids are not in carseats. So there! (Where is the smug smilie? LOL)


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
LOLOLOL!!!!!









Are you threatening someone over the internet? It's stuff like this that makes me think people are less concerned about some poor neglected baby's safety and more about feeling super self righteous.

I will also call the police. Not because I feel self-righteous, but because I'm concerned for that baby's health and well-being. If that car goes on down the road and gets into an impact and baby goes flying through the windshield and dies, I will feel horrible that I didn't call the police to stop that from happening. It's a law for a reason. If you have no regard for your child's safety, rest assured that there are people out there that do.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree. By calling the police, they are showing they care. If they just wanted to feel self righteous, they would just act smug and not do a thing.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
An infant taken out of their seat for a few minutes would also statistically have a "VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death."

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Go to the report page and look at the fatality rate for restrained and unrestrained passengers in the car, you might be surprised.

That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.

I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

These threads disturb me. I have only seen one questionable incident around here, a FF'ing seat had the flipper thing underneath in the wrong position so it was reclined too far.
I know that it was wrong because it's the same carseat DS1 has.

Hmmm no, there was one other incident, my neice and nefew said their dad let them ride in the work truck, in the front seat. There are no other seats, it is not insured for anyone but company employees, there is only one passenger seat and there are airbags. Which means two small children shared a front seat without a seatbelt. They were 3 and 6 at the time. Fortunately they told their grandparents who happen to own the business







that practice stopped quite quickly.

It's just appalling to hear these stories, I can't believe how ignorant some people still are.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

omg thats crazy! why dont you call the cops?


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

*It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.
*
I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.

YES to this! Do you know why they are called "accidents"? Because we don't know WHEN they will happen! Call it holier than thou, self-centered or whatever but most young children cannot say "Hey ma buckle me in" and then god forbid, they DIE in an accident, I could not live with myself knowing full well that I would have rather had a crying, screaming child in my car (and I can pull over to comfort them !!!!!!) than making funeral arrangements. Like the ads on tv say "It only take a split second to buckle a child and it only takes a split second to get into an auto accident."

(stepping down from soapbox......)


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Moving to Family Safety


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## Ruthie's momma (May 2, 2008)

Luckily, I have never noticed this!!!


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
Not flaming you, but asking this sincerely: What would a situation be where stopping is "not an option"?

Here was my situation. Let me preface this by saying that I have only done this once and would never do it again if I had the *choice*. I am a very loving mother and I don't deserve to have the police take my child away as some on this thread think









DS was a car hater and a screamer anytime he got in a car seat. We had a trip to Canada when he was 4 months old over Christmas. At the last minute, my parents could not pick us up from the airport so my dad paid for the bus ticket and we had exactly 20 minutes from the time the plane landed till the bus left. The bus ride was 3.5 hours. So after 3 hours of flying and no break, he gets put yet again into his car seat. He was SCREAMING and I mean SCREAMING. After an hour I was in tears and about 4 people on the bus were visibly upset and yelling at me. It was getting out of control and I made the decision to take him out of the car seat







Judge me if you want but I feel in that situation the risk of us getting into an accident was far less likely than someone getting physical with us from frustrations over a screaming baby.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
An infant taken out of their seat for a few minutes would also statistically have a "VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death."

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Go to the report page and look at the fatality rate for restrained and unrestrained passengers in the car, you might be surprised.

It is interesting. But it in no way argues that passenger restraints are not extremely helpful in reducing injuries and fatalities in motor vehicle accidents. These statistics are for fatal accidents only. Where are the statistics for the accidents that only resulted in injury? or for those which only result in property damage. From these data you link to, there is no information on how many restrained individuals were injured or spared injury instead of killed.

In the report, it states that for fatalities of passengers, over 50% were restrained and under 50% were not. However, in the whole population of vehicle passengers, over 50% are using restraints. IOW, because more passengers use restraints than do not, more restrained passengers die in fatal crashes.

Finally, something I found interesting is the breakdown by age. More restrained babies, young children and elderly people are killed than young and middle-aged adults. In other words, the majority of fatalities for child passengers and elderly passengers were restrained. The majority of fatalities for adults were unrestrained. I think this reflects the physical vulnerability of the populations. Children and the elderly are more likely to die in a serious crash even if they are restrained.

On another note, I have a very intelligent friend who really downplays the importance of carseats because of that stupid Freakonomics book. I think it's because it's the first thing she had ever read about car seats (before she had children). She told me that the point of the article/chapter is that carseats make little difference because they are so often used incorrectly. But since she has that knowledge she should be able to see the importance of using the carseat correctly and removing that particular "disadvantage" of carseat use. It drives me crazy.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)




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## KBinSATX (Jan 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tilia* 
I am lucky to say that I have never seen that.

Me neither.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewMama2007* 
I will also call the police. Not because I feel self-righteous, but because I'm concerned for that baby's health and well-being. If that car goes on down the road and gets into an impact and baby goes flying through the windshield and dies, I will feel horrible that I didn't call the police to stop that from happening. It's a law for a reason. If you have no regard for your child's safety, rest assured that there are people out there that do.

sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CanidFL* 
DS was a car hater and a screamer anytime he got in a car seat. We had a trip to Canada when he was 4 months old over Christmas. At the last minute, my parents could not pick us up from the airport so my dad paid for the bus ticket and we had exactly 20 minutes from the time the plane landed till the bus left. The bus ride was 3.5 hours. So after 3 hours of flying and no break, he gets put yet again into his car seat. He was SCREAMING and I mean SCREAMING. After an hour I was in tears and about 4 people on the bus were visibly upset and yelling at me. It was getting out of control and I made the decision to take him out of the car seat 







Judge me if you want but I feel in that situation the risk of us getting into an accident was far less likely than someone getting physical with us from frustrations over a screaming baby.

What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.

I see your situation as different though because it was a BUS. Different rules on buses and a bus has different dynamics in an accident due to its size, weight and design. And most buses don't have a way to install a car seat. Heck, most buses don't even have seat belts for adult passengers! Not saying kids wouldn't be safer in their seat, installed, just that it's not possible in many buses.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine









I'm not sure it's subjective. It has been proven that being unrestrained in a vehicle increases your chance of injury and death, which is why it is law in many places (I realize there are countries with no seat belt laws). Unassisted childbirth and not vaccinating is NOT illegal as there isn't the data or the "crash tests" to prove it's unsafe.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 















Yikes! Great videos but scary!


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

I'm not advocating the practice, but nursing an unrestrained child is not illegal everywhere. It's currently legal in Michigan to take a child out of their restraints in a moving car to nurse. Just a little FYI for those of you who call the police. Some folks have challenged this, but it's on the books, so it's not illegal.
http://cns.jrn.msu.edu/articles/2003...STFEEDING.html
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...SFA-0882-A.pdf


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

the situation we were in when it WAS IMPOSSIBLE or at least, for all intents and purposes, impossible to stop, was when we were following my in-laws far from home. cell phone was dead from a long weekend. baby was screaming...only one option.

the other time was just because it was VERY late and we didn't want to stop because we didn't want to get home all late.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
Yikes! Great videos but scary!

Apparently not scary enough


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

This

Quote:

While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.
So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.

I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.

It's not different for an adult either. An unrestrained adult becomes a projectile that can injure/kill every other person in the car.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.

Shuttle buses are more like giant vans with seatbelts for all passengers.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
This

So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.

Um, can I ask if any child's died in a carseat when the car was traveling at city speeds? Because I know kids have died when in "minor" accidents when unrestrained. Pretty sure it's not being properly restrained that makes things like "just a quick trip to the park" "less than a mile drive to the store" dangerous.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
This

So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.











I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?

Those two things aren't even in the same galaxy of similarity. There is inherent risk in everything. Every. Single. Thing. Eating, sleeping, taking a bath, going for a walk, riding in a wagon, reading a book...LIVING in and of itself is the biggest risk to life. To say that people who properly restrain their child in a car and drive them to a park is the SAME as not restraining them at all simply because they each carry risk is simply rediculous. That is like saying that since a child could choke on ANY piece of food, you might as well just go ahead and feed your 9 month-old whole grapes. And hey, since your child could die of SIDS no matter what you do, just go ahead and put a big, thick down comfortor and a few dozen stuffed animals in your newborn's crib.

I don't get it.

The job of parents is not to remove all risk from our child's life...it is to educate ourselves and use that knowledge to DECREASE risk as much as possible. Ask any parent who has lost a child...sometimes no matter what you do, it isn't enough. But to do nothing based on that thought process is negligent.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Shuttle buses are more like giant vans with seatbelts for all passengers.

Okay. I guess I always think of "bus" as in a big, long city bus or a Greyhound bus!


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## lovinwaves (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Little grey mare* 
These threads disturb me. I have only seen one questionable incident around here, a FF'ing seat had the flipper thing underneath in the wrong position so it was reclined too far.
I know that it was wrong because it's the same carseat DS1 has.

Some carseat manufacturers allow the recline foot to be in the up position while forward-facing to a certain weight limit.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

Well, so have I . . . but only because I was escaping racists who threatened to bash her "half breed" head in....

Quote:

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves.
Sure, within reason based on accurate & comprehensive information. This being that motor vehicle crashes are the #1 cause of death for all kids.

Quote:

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?
The fact that it's children's LIVES at stake, not merely a scraped knee or such like.

Quote:

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.
Vax'ing & carseats are 2 *completely* separate issues.

Quote:

Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.
How is it ever not possible to exit the road & find somewhere to stop? I've lived in very rural + very cosmopolitan areas & have visited other countries, too. My daughter was exclusively BF'd for 12 months without ever being removed from her carseat unless the vehicle was in park.

Because I also grew up watching my father treat the kids who don't die. Neither is an option I'm willing to risk. I guess it's between you & whatever higher power you might believe in, but I would never forgive myself if I chose that risk knowing the consequences.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Yes some crashes are unsurvivable, but a RF seat can reduce that risk about 75%

CORRECT USE is the key. Actually being buckled up inside the carseat is a pretty big part of correct use.

Legislators might say it's legal for babies to be removed for their seats for nursing, but they don't control the laws of PHYSICS nor does breastmilk make an infant immune to the laws of physics.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?
I am not defending the behavior. I am trying to understand how people can be so judgmental when likely they themselves are putting their child at risk by driving with them.
I wonder if the car seats give a sense of inflated security. Yes, your kids are much safer in the car seat but guess what, compared to the relative risk of other dangers driving in the car is still huge risk.

Quote:

Um, can I ask if any child's died in a carseat when the car was traveling at city speeds? Because I know kids have died when in "minor" accidents when unrestrained. Pretty sure it's not being properly restrained that makes things like "just a quick trip to the park" "less than a mile drive to the store" dangerous.
Yes, children can and have died in car seats when the car was traveling at city speeds.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
It's not different for an adult either. An unrestrained adult becomes a projectile that can injure/kill every other person in the car.

Correct.

Man killed by unrestrained passenger (news article)
http://www.mac.sa.gov.au/popup/tv_campaign.php?id=65 (warning: disturbing commercial)


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## tanyaandallie (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
This

So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.

I simply cannot follow your argument. Yes, riding in the car is one of the most dangerous things our kids do. I think we all understand the risk. Since it is dangerous, we should make every effort to make those rides as safe as possible. When you choose not to correctly restrain a child, you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce their risk of injury or death.

What exactly are you arguing? That we should all just stay home? That we shouldn't ride in cars? That car seat safety is pointless because riding in a car is dangerous? I just can't figure out exactly what our point is.


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine



















I'll still call the cops whenever I see a child unrestrained in a car.


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## anyalily (Oct 23, 2008)

When I was a little girl, I remember passing a relatively minor one-car accident on a quiet road. All I saw was a smashed up car and someone sitting on the ground with their head in their hands.

When we got home, we found out that someone had been holding a baby and it went through the windshield and died.

That has always stayed with me.

My husband needed to be educated about this when we had our daughter. He thought it would be safer to hold her on the way home than use the bucket seat because she was so little.

He's not a bad person, just came from a country where that was common thinking. What makes him a good parent is that he adjusted his practice when he learned the facts.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:

the situation we were in when it WAS IMPOSSIBLE or at least, for all intents and purposes, impossible to stop, was when we were following my in-laws far from home. cell phone was dead from a long weekend. baby was screaming...only one option.

the other time was just because it was VERY late and we didn't want to stop because we didn't want to get home all late.
How is it "IMPOSSIBLE" to stop because you are following someone?









Perhaps at the time you thought it was the most time-efficient choice, whatever, that's your decision. But it was certainly not impossible for you to stop. Inconvenient, maybe. But you did have other options. Blink your lights so they'd see you as you pulled over, pass them & then pull over so they'd see you... or just pull over & hope they'd wait for you up ahead. Pull over & use a pay phone to call them while you cared for the baby. Lots of options. Not impossible.

I think that's what's bothering me most about this thread. We all take risks every day, that we are constantly weighing and making choices about. It's one thing to say "I made this choice in this circumstance and it was the best move at the time", sure some of us may disagree. But it's an entirely different thing to say that you had *no other choice*.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

I simply cannot follow your argument. Yes, riding in the car is one of the most dangerous things our kids do. I think we all understand the risk. Since it is dangerous, we should make every effort to make those rides as safe as possible. When you choose not to correctly restrain a child, you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce their risk of injury or death.
I am not sure we all do understand the risk and that I think is my point. A poster a few posts back wondered if any child had ever died in their carseat riding a city speeds. I think there is a belief that if your child is properly restrained they are safe in the car. They are not. By putting you child in the car at all "you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce the risk of injury or death."

So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

: I wish I hadn't ever posted this







I know people may not always agree, but can't we do it without insulting other people? I wasn't trying to start arguments, I don't like conflict... I was just concerned about the children.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
What got me was the other day I saw a woman leaving the store I work at, put her daughter in the installed seat, and not bother to buckle it before she closed the door and drove away. I just didn't understand. She's already in the seat, how long does it take to buckle her?

I've never seen this of someone else, but I did it!







I just totally spaced! We were halfway home and DS proclaims, "MOM YOU DIDN'T STRAP ME IN!" Thankfully, he was old enough to tell me. I pulled over right away. Since, he is so so so vigilant about it. He gets in by himself now, but if I don't immediately strap him in (I'm putting something in the truck say), he is already reminding me LOUDLY. I haven't forgotten since (or before) that day, but I was so mad at myself. I'm OCD and this is one of those things I tend to do and check and check to see if I've done it. Must have been in la la land that day!

Mama, if you see someone do it again, mention it to them. They might have just spaced like me!









OP, I'm so shocked... I've never seen any violations of this nature. I can't imagine plopping the seat in like a bag of groceries like that. Occasionally, I see that someone has the bucket strapped in alright, but they haven't pushed the carry handle back, which I'm fairly certain you're supposed to do.

Em


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Late to this but, I've breastfed a restrained infant with no problem, well, I was a tad uncomfortable but hey. I'm a parent, what else is new?

For the 4 year old in boosters...my 4 year old is the size of a 6/7 year old. And in a booster (she just didn't fit in the regular seat anymore). Meh. At least she's restrained.

She also has a hysterical fit if anyone in the car isn't belted so I think she's well trained.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.

I see your situation as different though because it was a BUS. Different rules on buses and a bus has different dynamics in an accident due to its size, weight and design. And most buses don't have a way to install a car seat. Heck, most buses don't even have seat belts for adult passengers! Not saying kids wouldn't be safer in their seat, installed, just that it's not possible in many buses.

Robert Q from Detroit and all seats had seat belts. They actually provide the car seat. I guess it's more of a van that sits around 16 people if I remember correctly. But yes, bus is a different situation. I'm just giving an example of where I rode for 2 hours with DS in my arms and it's not always black and white as some people are hinting at on this thread


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
Yes, children can and have died in car seats when the car was traveling at city speeds.

Okay. Now, how many of those involved parents lying about using the car seat correctly?


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
I think there is a belief that if your child is properly restrained they are safe in the car. They are not. By putting you child in the car at all "you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce the risk of injury or death."

So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.


You are taking the words of many posters and twisting them. I don't think you are even misunderstanding what people are saying, but intentionally doing this to antagonize.

You cannot see the difference between someone going in a vehicle while making every effort possible to keep their child as safe as they can (ie - properly using a child restraint EVERY time), and the inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place ?

No - I'm sure you CAN see the difference, but you simply choose to stir the pot instead.


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## Miss 1928 (Nov 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee* 
...Occasionally, I see that someone has the bucket strapped in alright, but they haven't pushed the carry handle back, which I'm fairly certain you're supposed to do.
Em

Depends on the model. I've noticed that some want the carry handle up and some want it down while being used while driving.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamieCole* 









I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?

Those two things aren't even in the same galaxy of similarity. There is inherent risk in everything. Every. Single. Thing. Eating, sleeping, taking a bath, going for a walk, riding in a wagon, reading a book...LIVING in and of itself is the biggest risk to life. To say that people who properly restrain their child in a car and drive them to a park is the SAME as not restraining them at all simply because they each carry risk is simply rediculous. That is like saying that since a child could choke on ANY piece of food, you might as well just go ahead and feed your 9 month-old whole grapes. And hey, since your child could die of SIDS no matter what you do, just go ahead and put a big, thick down comfortor and a few dozen stuffed animals in your newborn's crib.

I don't get it.

The job of parents is not to remove all risk from our child's life...it is to educate ourselves and use that knowledge to DECREASE risk as much as possible. Ask any parent who has lost a child...sometimes no matter what you do, it isn't enough. But to do nothing based on that thought process is negligent.











--I'll probably get a tomato thrown at me for saying this:
The cynic in me wants to call parents who CHOOSE not to buckle their kids in on a regular basis, "Evolution In Action."


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Late to this but, I've breastfed a restrained infant with no problem, well, I was a tad uncomfortable but hey. I'm a parent, what else is new?

I did that too...but then a few years ago (when my 4 1/2 year old was a newborn) LLL made a big deal about how unsafe this is. If you were in an accident your weight plus the force of the accident would crush your baby.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 

So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.

It would be easier to forgive yourself cause you did everything possible to keep your kid safe. I still just can't even fathom how you are comparing the two at all.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Ok, I'm opening this thread back up.

When posting to this thread (and all threads) please keep in mind the MDC User Agreement.

Some parts that I'd like to emphasize:

Quote:

Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Quote:

Do not start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewMama2007* 









I'll still call the cops whenever I see a child unrestrained in a car.

thank goodness for tinted windows - they help nosy people mind their own business.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

It would be easier to forgive yourself cause you did everything possible to keep your kid safe. I still just can't even fathom how you are comparing the two at all.
I guess I don't understand why the two are not comparable, because when I read your first sentence I see a contradiction. If you were doing "everything possible to keep your kid safe" you would not be putting them in the car for unnecessary trips.

Quote:

You are taking the words of many posters and twisting them. I don't think you are even misunderstanding what people are saying, but intentionally doing this to antagonize.

You cannot see the difference between someone going in a vehicle while making every effort possible to keep their child as safe as they can (ie - properly using a child restraint EVERY time), and the inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place ?
Could you let me know what it is you think I am twisting or misunderstanding?
I think collectively we accept the "inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place" but I wonder about accepting this risk when it comes to our own children. Again I know children are safer in their carseats but to believe they are safe is wrong.
I am not trying to antagonize. In my mind the comparison between taking a screaming infant out of their seat to console them and driving your restrained kids on unnecessary trips is reasonable. Maybe you could explain why you think it is not?


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
I did that too...but then a few years ago (when my 4 1/2 year old was a newborn) LLL made a big deal about how unsafe this is. If you were in an accident your weight plus the force of the accident would crush your baby.

i have heard this too...on a thread on another forum. at least with the infant car seat we are using currently for ds2, i'm not so sure it would be possible because of how high the sides of the carseat are.. i have to crush my ribs to get my breast over ds2's mouth for him to nurse. i guess that's not very clear...i'm not saying it's not possible, i just don't see how it would be possible in our case. i thought about it and lurched forward to see if i would crush ds2 but i think this wouldn't happen. instead, i would probably break my ribs and possibly puncture a lung, i think, but would only hit the side of the carseat...


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