# What if we don't have a shoulder belt??



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I'm looking at some carseats and most of them say that they cannot be used without a shoulder belt or to not use just the lap belt.

Our truck is an 89 and it doens't have shoulder belts in the back. It only has the lap belts.

Is this referring to a car that has the shoulder belt? Like, you can't avoid using the shoulder belt if you have one??


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm confused about what you are asking.

Every harnessed carseat can be installed with a lapbelt only.

You cannot use a booster with a lapbelt.

If lapbelts are all you have, you need to keep your children harnessed until you can afford something else, as lapbelts only are deadly in an accident.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I'm confused about what you are asking.

Every harnessed carseat can be installed with a lapbelt only.

You cannot use a booster with a lapbelt.

If lapbelts are all you have, you need to keep your children harnessed until you can afford something else, as lapbelts only are deadly in an accident.

Then what do people with older cars do? You can't tell me that every family with a kid in a booster seat drives a car with shoulder belts in the back.

So, am I better off with in a 5 point harness over the weight limit? that is dangerous too.

I'm not going to sell my truck I assume that is what you mean by "afford something else". We can't even use a backless booster?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

With a car seat you can use them without a shoulder belt but a buster you MUST have a shoulder belt. Without it the risk of paralizing injury is very high as well as death.

When dh had a truck I put dd's car seat in the middle with lap only but once she went to booster I had to put her on the passenger side door.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

ahh, the Radian 65 is an excellent 5-point harness that goes to 65lbs, and I believe there is also a Radian 80 for up to 80 lbs. they are pricey seats, around $180. this would be a good Q for the www.car-seat.org forums good luck


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

No, you CANNOT use a booster with a lapbelt only. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I'm not sure which is worse, just riding around in a lapbelt or throwing a booster into the mix. BOTH are extremely dangerous.

I would not put someone I loved in a lap belt only, period. Either get a higher-harnessing weight seat, buy a newer car, get shoulder belts retrofitted, or walk.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
With a car seat you can use them without a shoulder belt but a buster you MUST have a shoulder belt. Without it the risk of paralizing injury is very high as well as death.

When dh had a truck I put dd's car seat in the middle with lap only but once she went to booster I had to put her on the passenger side door.

It is actually a ramcharger....so it doens't matter. The backseat is a backseat.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Or take the bus.

And ftr, I wouldn't put someone I didn't like that much in a lapbelt only either









I'm sorry I'm being so harsh, but I am trying to impress on you just how DANGEROUS what you are suggesting is.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I had no idea it was dangerous. I rode in a lapbelted booster as a kid, so did my sister, so do half the kids we know!

I can't buy a $300 carseat either. Fuck.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

When was it decided to be too dangerous anyway?

We have one car pre90s and one car pre80 (almost pre70). We're screwed on both fronts.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
When was it decided to be too dangerous anyway?

We have one car pre90s and one car pre80 (almost pre70). We're screwed on both fronts.

It wasn't 'decided'...it's a matter of physics









A booster is designed to position the shoulder belt on the child and keep the lap belt portion (OF A LAP/SHOULDER COMBO ONLY) low on the hips and thighs.

A lapbelt alone in an accident can cause severe abdominal injuries and severe spine injuries. It's actually called "lap-belt syndrome".

THe ONLY thing a lapbelt is good for is installing carseats, period.

The good news is, you don't need to spend 300 dollars to harness your children. What age, height and weight are you dealing with right now?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh, if you can't afford a newer auto, it is possible to have shoulder belts retrofitted in some cars, though it can be pricey. (Obviously not as pricey as a new car.)


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
It wasn't 'decided'...it's a matter of physics









The good news is, you don't need to spend 300 dollars to harness your children. What age, height and weight are you dealing with right now?











He is 5.5 years old, 42.5 inches tall. 45 pounds.

according to all the seats I can find he can only be in the harness till 40 pounds unless it is a really expensive one.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Oh, if you can't afford a newer auto, it is possible to have shoulder belts retrofitted in some cars, though it can be pricey. (Obviously not as pricey as a new car.)

It isn't that we can't afford one (well, we can't-- you know how the car you have is worth more to you than to the rest of the world, because you couldn't replace it for what the actual vehicle is worth etc? It is one of those things.) but I'm still not selling the truck. We have to come up with another solution.

I was wondering about the retrofitted shoulder belts. Considering that someday we may use the truck as offorad etc. maybe getting a new seat, or retrofit, woul be a better investment anyway.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Oh, if you can't afford a newer auto, it is possible to have shoulder belts retrofitted in some cars, though it can be pricey. (Obviously not as pricey as a new car.)









:

That's what I was going to say. Though it will be cheaper to buy a $300 seat probably.

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

No, ma'am.

Can you afford 130 dollars?

http://www.albeebaby.com/fiprsavodeco1.html 17 inch top slots, goes to 55 lbs, made by Britax.

Or

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5933974 17 inch top slots, goes to 50 lbs. This is the Triumph ADVANCE, NOT the original Triumph.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 









He is 5.5 years old, 42.5 inches tall. 45 pounds.

according to all the seats I can find he can only be in the harness till 40 pounds unless it is a really expensive one.

For the most part, in carseats you get what you pay for.

There are less expensive options in some cases.

At that size, that age, your car- I would get a regent. I'd beg, borrow or steal the money. Really. It's that important.

An Apex *might* work- though it has to have high seat backs or headrests, and most cars of that age don't.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
No, ma'am.

Can you afford 130 dollars?

http://www.albeebaby.com/fiprsavodeco1.html 17 inch top slots, goes to 55 lbs, made by Britax.

Or

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5933974 17 inch top slots, goes to 50 lbs. This is the Triumph ADVANCE, NOT the original Triumph.

To consider these I would sit him on the floor and measure his height at the shoulder. Torso height is what's important here (and is reflected in the 17 in slots mentioned above- the child would need to be less than 17in at the shoulder)

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, I didn't mention the Apex because I doubt a car with lapbelts only has headrests.

A Regent would be your best bet given the circumstances. The price is 270 dollars....21 inch top harness height and 80 pound weight limit.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 







:

That's what I was going to say. Though it will be cheaper to buy a $300 seat probably.

-Angela

Not if I'm about to have the problem x2. Bryce is almost the same weight as Tracy even though he is 2ish years younger.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
Not if I'm about to have the problem x2. Bryce is almost the same weight as Tracy even though he is 2ish years younger.

Wouldn't hurt to get a quote. But the carseats will be used for a long time too.









A regent will last most kids past 7 years old. And harnessed is always safer than a booster.

-Angela


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Yeah, I didn't mention the Apex because I doubt a car with lapbelts only has headrests.

Our 72 does have headrests but our 89 does not. actually, I think he is too tall to sit in that seat without a back to the seat anyway.

I'm screwed. I don't have the money. I just bought brand new seats in April. I figured i would be a bit till he was too heavy but he had a HUGe growth spurt in the last few months and grew much faster than we thought.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
Not if I'm about to have the problem x2. Bryce is almost the same weight as Tracy even though he is 2ish years younger.

Oh and at that age- he REALLY needs to stay harnessed. 4yrs is the bare minimum to go in a booster.

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

www.kyledavidmiller.org

They have a huge backlog right now, but they do help people who have proof of needing financial assistance (WIC, foodstamps, welfare, etc). THey're a charity for people who need higher-harnessing weight seats for their kids. I take it 130 is out of the question?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
I'm screwed. I don't have the money. I just bought brand new seats in April. I figured i would be a bit till he was too heavy but he had a HUGe growth spurt in the last few months and grew much faster than we thought.











This is why I HATE the 40lb seats. I think they're a big fat rip off.







:

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









This is why I HATE the 40lb seats. I think they're a big fat rip off.







:

-Angela









:


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









This is why I HATE the 40lb seats. I think they're a big fat rip off.








:

-Angela

Yup.

I lost my job and we don't have extra cash.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Please put an application in at the foundation then







:


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I don't have a car, but we ride in my prents a lot. They use to have old Toyota Corolla, and it had lap belts only in the back. I bought a seat that harnesses to 48 lbs, that was the highest wieght avialable, I think in Canada? Highest aviaailable locally for sure. I was still worried about when she got older, and my dad got a different vehicle. There was no airbag in the fornt, so that was a possibiltiy, but I wasn't really ok with that idea either.

I would consider it for a truck though. I know rear seat is safest, but many trucks don't have a back seat, and I wonder which woudl be safer, back seat with a lap belt, or front seat with a shoulder harness, (with a booster as long as needed of course)

I would check on getting shoulder harness belts put in first. It wasn't an option with the toyota, but it was the first thing we checked.

They used to make booster, I think with a shiled thing, that were ok for use with jsut a lap belt, but when I looked, I coudlnt' find any in Canada. It was eyar ago I looked, so I don't recall the details, but I odn't think they were enarly as safe as the boosters available now.

There's no way I coudl afford a $300 carseat. And at least here, you don't need to. The evenflo I got that goes to 48 lbs was like $90. They all have to meet the same standards, I'm not paying extra for the name. Th4e more expensive ones had lower wieghts, mostly.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

There are 65lb seats in Canada now. And they are more expensive (the Radian and the Marathon)

The shield boosters are no longer on the market- they were very dangerous.

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Front seat with a booster in a lap/shoulder belt is by far safer than back seat with a lapbelt only


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## bechand0128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Can you sell the seats you bought in April to fund new seats?

The shoulder belt retrofit would be great, IF you had the headrests. Without the headrests, the shoulder belts won't do you any good.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe an EZ-On vest w/ the Ryde Ryte booster for the head support, but I'm certain those are more costly than the $130 FP seat or Triumph Advance, though the vest will last longer.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
There are 65lb seats in Canada now. And they are more expensive (the Radian and the Marathon)

The shield boosters are no longer on the market- they were very dangerous.

-Angela

Unless it's changed recently though, you can't use them to 65 lbs in Canda, iirc. I'll have to look into it if Rachel gets to be over 48 lbs before she is 4. I doubt it though.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I just googled to find out, and can't find anything saying it has changed to 65 lbs yet. As far as I could find, you can still only harness to 48 lbs here no matter what seat it is.


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## Eris (Sep 11, 2002)

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/child...07c06/menu.htm

Says:

Quote:

This Interim Order amends the definition of "child" to mean a person whose weight is not less than 9 kg (20 lbs) and not more than 30 kg (65 lbs). Since a "child restraint system" is a device that is designed to restrain a "child", the Interim Order effectively raises the maximum permissible weight use limit for child restraint systems from 22 kg (48 lbs) to 30 kg (65 lbs). In addition, the Interim Order introduces new test conditions, procedures and requirements for these restraint systems.

The purpose of this Interim Order is to allow manufacturers and importers to offer in Canada child restraint systems, which incorporate an internal harness and a tether strap, designed for use by children weighing up to 30 kg (65 lbs). This Interim Order responds to the large number of requests from members of the public for these higher-capacity child restraint systems.

This Interim Order is effective from May 1, 2007 to April 30, 2008, inclusive. During the period covered by this Interim Order, Transport Canada will be proceeding to incorporate these changes into the regulations on a permanent basis.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I realized he couldn't use the backless booster anyway. Because even sitting normal, without a seat, the middle of his head is above the seat back.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

The shoulder belt retrofit would be great, IF you had the headrests. Without the headrests, the shoulder belts won't do you any good.
This isn't true, is it? My car doesn't have headrests, but it has shoulder belts, which allow us to install either the Radian or the Regent.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Wait, is this saying a car HAS to have headrests? Is that just for boosters or for seats in general.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
Wait, is this saying a car HAS to have headrests? Is that just for boosters or for seats in general.

No, but it does for low back boosters, or any high back booster or car seat that according to the manufacturer requires them (Cosco/Safety 1st).


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eris* 
http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/child...07c06/menu.htm

Says:

Thanks. I'lll look into getting one of those seats if I need another harnessed seat before my kidlet is 4. And I"ll defnitely suggest it to firends who will be buying convertibel seats soon.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Here's lap belt only crash. http://depts.washington.edu/booster/...54_6yr_lap.mpg

Harnessed seat crash. http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...cosipriori.mpg

You could use this http://www.ezonpro.com/products/fami...yHarness.shtml till he needed the head support (ears over the top of the seat) and then add this http://www.safetyangel.com/products/...kBooster.shtml later. I don't know how much the harness is, but the booster is $72.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
This isn't true, is it? My car doesn't have headrests, but it has shoulder belts, which allow us to install either the Radian or the Regent.

Both a Radian and Regent can install with a lap belt I believe (I know a radian can....)

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Those can both use lap only belts to install. Headrests are specifically needed for the Apex and the Cubb/Prospect I believe which is why they were mentioned. A high backed booster would be used in a case where there are no head supports, w/ a lap/shoulder belt of course.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Both a Radian and Regent can install with a lap belt I believe (I know a radian can....)

-Angela

Yes, but the Regent is going to need to be tethered, which is a whole nother issue with an old car.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
Yes, but the Regent is going to need to be tethered, which is a whole nother issue with an old car.

Very true. BUT most dealers will install a tether anchor free or cheap.

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Very true. BUT most dealers will install a tether anchor free or cheap.

-Angela

Yes, but not all older cars are set up to accept a tether anchor, so it's more difficult if not impossible to add one. I don't remember the year of the car in question, but I'm thinking most cars back to early 90s have a tether hole drilled.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
Yes, but the Regent is going to need to be tethered, which is a whole nother issue with an old car.

I didn't think about this when I suggested the 86Y harness. Oops.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
I didn't think about this when I suggested the 86Y harness. Oops.

Exactly, which is why the Regent might not be the best answer also. In a *very* old car, ie 70s or early 80s, I think any car older than a '89, this is going to be an issue. So a tether might be possible in the '89 truck.

There is also the option of getting a Britax Laptop, if you can find one, and if the child's ears are still below the back of the seat -- even if they aren't, I would still use it, because whiplash, isn't as terrible as severe internal injuries from a lap belt. Of course the Laptops are beginning to expire, but I would use an expired Laptop over putting the child in a lapbelt only, or even in a booster in the front seat.


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## BeagleMommy (May 26, 2006)

I'm curious for an update on the saga of car seat in a Ramcharger. I am trying to install a Graco comfprtsport in an '89 Ramcharger with limited success. Even with me sitting in the seat to get the lapbelt fastened, it winds up SOOO floppy. The belt is tight, but it moves around a lot. This is RF BTW. We love our Ramcharger, too. DH wouldn't get rid of it if $50,000 fell out of the sky!


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 









He is 5.5 years old, 42.5 inches tall. 45 pounds.

according to all the seats I can find he can only be in the harness till 40 pounds unless it is a really expensive one.

we got a safety first convertible booster - for dh's 89 volvo with lap belts only in the back - it was about $120 and had a high 5pt harness weight limit. lmk if you want me to look up more info for you.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate~mom* 
we got a safety first convertible booster - for dh's 89 volvo with lap belts only in the back - it was about $120 and had a high 5pt harness weight limit. lmk if you want me to look up more info for you.

I'm assuming you have the Apex, just keep in mind it must have headrests behind it to make it usable.


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
I'm assuming you have the Apex, just keep in mind it must have headrests behind it to make it usable.

hmmmm - we've since gotten dh a new car (thank the LORD!) and passed the seat on to my mil - she has a late model outback (the shoulder belts in the back) - and i believe headrest. not sure - now i'll have to check. we've since begun to use it as a belt positioning booster - since dd is almost 7 - does it matter in that use? (not to totally derail the op).


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate~mom* 
we've since begun to use it as a belt positioning booster - since dd is almost 7 - does it matter in that use? (not to totally derail the op).

Yes, it does matter, same rule applies to the seat when used as a booster. Several Cosco boosters have this situlation.


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