# What are some examples of shaming?



## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

This might be a silly question







, but I'm not clear on what exactly "shaming" refers to. Obviously we wouldn't use insults with our sons and I try my best to avoid "blame" statements (e.g. "You are making mommy so angry" or whatever.) But I don't know that that is really what you all mean by shaming. I'm just wondering if you could give me some examples of what shaming means to you?

Thanks!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think any sort of "judgementalism" toward a child is shaming. Anytime we try to motivate them by attacking their character, it is shaming. Anytime we make our child feel flawed or worthless on a basic level, we are shaming them.

For example, I was looking at books that teach values the other day and there was one about sharing called "Selfishness." It was all about how bad it is to be "selfish." I was thinking to myself that the term "selfish" really doesn't explain all the feelings my son has about sharing, and it is a really _shaming_ way to conceptualize something that he finds very difficult.

To generalize that -- any time we critique our child's motives by labeling them in a negative way -- by saying, "You are..." or even "You are being...."
- selfish, bad, sneaky, difficult, defiant, mean, etc.

And then the shaming aspect is amplified if we do it in public. (Though, I would still argue that its shaming to do it in private too.)


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Mamaduck had a great explanation.

I think of "shaming" as anything that would embarrass a child - yelling at them in front of others, making them feel badly over a potty accident, telling them they are stupid, etc.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

My relationship with my parents is really bad right now because I refuse to let them shame my kids or anyone in front of my kids. Here is the list I gave them: "Time outs," angry yelling, feigned disappointment, hitting (spanking included), forceful pulling/prying/grabbing, unrelated privilege revocation, unreasonable expectations, name calling (such as Brat) etc.

Basically I consider anything designed to make someone feel bad to be shaming. But I also go further to think that anything which upholds the idea that the child is the inferior and the adult is the superior is also a form of shaming, because it hinders their self-esteem just like direct shaming. I dunno sometimes I feel like some "harmless" things can also turn into shaming "The kid's table," Baby talk (pet peave of mine), "because I said so" because they assume/reinforce that kids are inferior. Of course it may just be beacuse of the environment I was raised in where the kids table was a demotion and baby talk and "because I said so" were just something you do because kids aren't worth the effort.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

When I did something that I wasn't supposed to as a child, my mom would say "Oh, HONey..." in THAT tone of voice.

That's shaming. And to this day it makes my SKIN CRAWL to hear her say that (even though it's no longer in reference to me).

She was visiting me a few months ago and got something on her shirt and was trying to clean it off in the bathroom and I heard her say "Oh... Oh!" in this disappointed tone of voice (hard to describe over the 'net). It made me want to kick something... honestly.

Once you have been subjected to that kind of B.S. it really makes you determined not to be like that... although it's hard when you're raised that way.


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks so much, everyone! This has been very helpful.

mamaduck -- I really appreciate the "selfish" example, as I agree, it minimizes a very complex emotional situation for the child. On the other hand, I wonder about labeling behavior, vs. the child? (I hear what you are saying about "You are being..." but what about "hitting is x, y or z", for example?)

Also, Shaggy Daddy -- Funny that you mention the children's table. My parents never did that (I always sat w/ the adults), but my friends' parents did and I HATED it! That said, sometimes we do have a children's table for A and his best friend (they are 3.5)... they have been in a ps coop together for two years and they really do much better when they are one-on-one with each other.

Good to know that most of these things I'm doing intuitively! Phew!!!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Mj -- I tend to avoid labeling behavior by moralizing it. IMO, its better to simply describe it and its effects. For instance, I'd prefer to say, _"Hitting hurts,_" rather than, _"Hitting is wrong,"_ or _"Hitting is mean."_ The first gives a concrete reason not to hit. The others give the message that only "bad" people do it.

Although -- I do say _"Its not okay to hit."_ So I guess I have to think more about this!


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
When I did something that I wasn't supposed to as a child, my mom would say "Oh, HONey..." in THAT tone of voice.

That's shaming. And to this day it makes my SKIN CRAWL to hear her say that (even though it's no longer in reference to me).

She was visiting me a few months ago and got something on her shirt and was trying to clean it off in the bathroom and I heard her say "Oh... Oh!" in this disappointed tone of voice (hard to describe over the 'net). It made me want to kick something... honestly.

Once you have been subjected to that kind of B.S. it really makes you determined not to be like that... although it's hard when you're raised that way.

THat's what I was going to say...that shaming isn't just transmitted by the language you choose to use, it's also in body language (shaking one's head disappointedly), and definitely tone of voice. My DH used to say, "Hen-REE! Not a good decision!" and the way he said it was definitely shaming, like KM said, it's hard to describe with writing, but it was this "I'm so disappointed in you" kind of voice. I mentioned it to him in private, and he immediately saw what I was talking about, and has been working on stopping that.

I really think it's so much a matter of your motivation - do you *want* your kid to feel bad? Or do you want to guide and teach him? I try to check myself when I respond to H in the heat of a frustrated moment by asking myself what I want him to feel and take away from the correction/guidance/response from me, and how is my language and tone of voice likely to communicate that?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
On the other hand, I wonder about labeling behavior, vs. the child? (I hear what you are saying about "You are being..." but what about "hitting is x, y or z", for example?)

I think its an illusion that children can separate judgements about their behavior from judgements about THEM. I don't think adults can, either... we all seem to gain our identity from our actions over time and feedback about those actions from other people - to me, if someone said about me, "She wears clothes that don't match" vs. "she has the fashion sense of a newt" I would find both statements judgemental about me (although one is kinder and I would appreciate that they were trying to be nice).

I think its better to state why a particular behavior is harmful; instead of, "hitting is wrong," say, "it hurts the cat when he is hit," and to try and understand why the hitting occured, and see if there is another way to meet that need. Have respect for the behavior because it is saying something rather than dismissing it as bad, and try to listen to what the behavior is saying.

"I love you but I can't stand your behavior," is confusing and twisted to me. I AM my behavior.


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks everyone for continuing to weigh in. This is really helpful to me. I really appreciate the piece about tone and intention. Intention is tough, though, b/c sometimes I am not consciously aware that my desire is to control him ... but then when I reflect back, I see that it might have been. B/c of that, I want to get more awareness about possibly difficult situations, so that I can kind of automate them (i.e. not have to rely on myself to understand my intentions right on the spot.)

FTR, I don't say "hitting is bad", and I do say "hitting hurts"... sometimes I take it to the next step, though, and explain that if he continues to hit, for example, his little brother, then he is showing DS2 that hitting is an okay way to express anger. I'm not sure if this isn't too much responsible for a child of 3.5 to handle, though.

I think for me, the biggest issue that I don't want to repeat from my childhood -- as so many of you have alluded to -- is the "guilt-trips". Sometimes shaming, sometimes guilting, but the end result was my feeling like I was responsible for my mom's emotional needs. That's what I struggle with in terms of how to approach hitting/kicking, in particular. As I said above, I want DS1 to understand that there are consequences -- immediate and longer-term -- to his actions. (It hurts the other person, people don't like to be hurt, etc.) On the other hand, in the specific example that I brought up, I don't want to make DS2's future behavior (if he does end up being a hitter like DS1) an albatross around DS1's neck. Guess I'm wondering if I'm crossing the line into guilt trip?

OK, that's a lot... I'm not sure if this is even really about shaming anymore. Thanks for letting me think out loud!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Some great answers so far!

I would like to add that I think "correcting" is a flavor of shame too, even in a "sweet" voice. "Say you're sorry." or "What do you say??" when trying to make a kid say thank you or something. "Use your manners," and what not. All very shaming, even if said _"nicely"_.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Something I recently noticed is that (esp. when frustrated) I sometimes think in terms of my son's age, rather than think of him as a person. For example, the other day, I asked him to do something for me. It wasn't really important. He refused, which is okay because we've taught him since birth that it's okay for him to have his needs and wants. But I walked away thinking, "Stupid two-year old. Telling _me_ what to do..." Suddenly it dawned on me that I was only expecting compliance because he's a little kid. My new goal is to always see him as a person and never as an age.

Hmm.. I hpe this makes sense







. I forgot where I was going with this. The Simpsons is on in the background and it's a little distracting.

~Nay


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

One definition I heard that has stuck with me is this:

Blaming is telling someone what they DID was wrong/bad
Shaming is telling someone that they ARE bad/wrong

A very direct example would be, "you should be ashamed of yourself!".

One I really can't stand is hearing something like this when a child gets hurt and is crying and the parent obviously doesn't know how to just BE there for the child - "well, if you wouldn't have been climbing/jumping/being so rowdy, you wouldn't have gotten hurt!"


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
I would like to add that I think "correcting" is a flavor of shame too, even in a "sweet" voice. "Say you're sorry." or "What do you say??" when trying to make a kid say thank you or something. "Use your manners," and what not. All very shaming, even if said _"nicely"_.

That's what I was thinking, too.

Aside from being shaming, I think that forced apologies are obviously insincere and that both the apologizer and the recipient are painfully aware of it.

I want my kids to apologize for things because they _mean it_. Not just for lip service.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
Some great answers so far!

I would like to add that I think "correcting" is a flavor of shame too, even in a "sweet" voice. "Say you're sorry." or "What do you say??" when trying to make a kid say thank you or something. "Use your manners," and what not. All very shaming, even if said _"nicely"_.

I disagree. I think it's important to teach children manners, and it's too child-centric to be overly concerned with whether they *feel* sorry, vs. how the party who has been harmed feels.

I agree with the rest of the suggestions tho.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I disagree. I think it's important to teach children manners, and it's too child-centric to be overly concerned with whether they *feel* sorry, vs. how the party who has been harmed feels.

I, too, think it's important to teach manners.

But, how would YOU feel if someone was mean to you, and then a third party stood over that mean person's shoulder and harassed them until they apologized to you? Would you feel that it was a _real_ apology? Personally, I would feel like I was being patronized. I don't want someone telling me they're sorry if they don't mean it.

When my kids were small, if they did something that wasn't nice, *I* would apologize to the offended party and remove my child from the situation.

Now, at 15 and 11, my boys know how to say please, thank you, and when an apology is warranted they give one without any qualms. I think _modeling_ good manners is the best way to do it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I would personally be *much* happier with a forced apology than with those 'in charge' being too concerned about the offender's feeling to insist on one.

I remind my child to say sorry. You can't truly force it, so if she doesn't, I offer the apology, as you do. But then I tell her she was in the wrong, the other person was hurt, and she needed to say sorry.

Perhaps that qualifies as shaming.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

With regards to the whole I'm sorry issue, this is how we've handled it at preschools I've worked at. We ask the child to "check in with" the one who has been hurt. Usually we model asking "are you okay?" Then the child who has been hurt gets the chance to express their feelings which is often what they need more than hearing an apology. We then model asking them what they need to feel better. If they want the offending party to say sorry they will say that. If not the issue isn't forced. Of course sometimes the other child refuses to apologize, which frankly is their right. As the adult in the situation I would state that "so-and-so doesn't feel like saying sorry right now. But I'm sorry you got hurt, what can I do to help you feel better?"

Basically I feel that it is our responsibility to model and encourage pro-social behavior. But we can't control what children say or feel. When it comes to "please" and "thank-you" I also encourage a child to say them, but don't force the issue. But honestly I think it is our responsibility to let people know how to treat us respectfully. If my Dh rudely demanded me to get him something, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him "I'd prefer if you would say 'would you please get me the ______?'" This is the same thing I do when a child at the snack table shouts "Juice, Juice, Juice" at me. I just say "would you please pass the juice?" They usually repeat it back and I say "yes I would be happy to"

I just don't see this as shaming. My goal is not to make them feel bad or guilty. I want to let the child know how to treat others with respect. And it's not about "respecting" me as the adult. I model this same behavior to be used between two children. If we don't model appropriate behavior or we don't expect it from children, how do they learn it? Once again I never force the issue. I model the language once, if the child doesn't respond I let it go.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I would personally be *much* happier with a forced apology than with those 'in charge' being too concerned about the offender's feeling to insist on one.

I remind my child to say sorry. You can't truly force it, so if she doesn't, I offer the apology, as you do. But then I tell her she was in the wrong, the other person was hurt, and she needed to say sorry.

Perhaps that qualifies as shaming.
















Yes, I think it does.

Why would you be happy with a forced apology? Is it because you would want to see the offending party in the spotlight for his or her negative behavior (IOW, shaming)? I can't think of any other reason to be glad for an insincere apology.

I think that if you have to remind someone to say they're sorry, then they aren't really sorry. I do value apologies when they're necessary, but I value sincerity more than appearances.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I value demonstrating respect for others thru behaviour. I think it is too coddling to be overly concerned with the feelings of the child who offended the other. YMMV.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I value demonstrating respect for others thru behaviour. I think it is too coddling to be overly concerned with the feelings of the child who offended the other. YMMV.









Thismama, I agree with the first part; that is why I'll be real darn sure to THANK the person myself for their generosity, thoughtfulness, kindness, help, etc.







I trust that modeling respect of everyone's feelings is how respect is conceptualize and learned.







:

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I disagree. I think it's important to teach children manners, and it's too child-centric to be overly concerned with whether they *feel* sorry, vs. how the party who has been harmed feels.


We don't have to choose.







We can respect both the child's feelings AND the "harmed" person's feelings. There is abundant respect available for everyone.









Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I hear what you are saying. I just think some of this stuff turns into walking on eggshells around our children, kwim? If we love them, keep them close, I think they can handle a little behaviour correction without melting into a puddle of self esteem issues.

I think a bit of a "Question authority but not your mother" vibe is just fine, personally.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

I think a bit of a "Question authority but not your mother" vibe is just fine, personally.























Yep, that "do as I say, because I said so" stuff just never has set well with me ever since childhood. Just ask any "authority".







: Drives my poor dh crazy when I want to question the police officer 'why are you stopping people without cause, to do seatbelt checks?'. It is hard to learn to obey arbitrary top down authority decisions in my experience. YMMV?









Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Don't you know some of those overly-GD'ed kids who are super entitled and show no fear of their parents or empathy for anyone else? And the mamas walk on eggshells around them not wanting to mess with their precious self esteem?

Coz I do and they are not pretty. I don't want my kid to turn out like that. I'm happy to experiment with being as gentle as possible, but I've been in situations where the little offender's feelings were considered more important than an apology to a wounded party, and I didn't feel good about it.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
I think that if you have to remind someone to say they're sorry, then they aren't really sorry. I do value apologies when they're necessary, but I value sincerity more than appearances.

Of course everyone wants to see sincere remorse expressed in response to having been hurt in some way. But for a child who is emotionally incapable of this, there is still value in having to own up to one's actions and to acknowlege the consequences of them. The apology serves the interests of the victim, after all, not just as a teaching tool for the perpetrator.

If a kid hits dd and doesn't give a rat's ass about her feelings, it nonetheless helps her to know that her feelings ARE important when responsible adults who are present intervene on her behalf. Kids have an innate sense of justice and they look for adult reinforcement of their own understanding of right and wrong.

Maybe we're talking apples and oranges here. Somebody help me out by giving an example of how they handle it when their child hits another, and then does not spontaneously take responsiblity or act to remedy the matter? I'm not talking about punishment or belittling. But I would most certainly openly express disappointment and disapproval and it seems as though that is being catagorized as 'shaming' in this discussion. Maybe someone can give some illustrations of how they are dealing with similar scenarios using other methods?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Don't you know some of those overly-GD'ed kids who are super entitled and show no fear of their parents or empathy for anyone else?









I'm picturing these kids as well. I hope someone can put things in a different perspective here.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Don't you know some of those overly-GD'ed kids who are super entitled and show no fear of their parents or empathy for anyone else? And the mamas walk on eggshells around them not wanting to mess with their precious self esteem?

Coz I do and they are not pretty. I don't want my kid to turn out like that. I'm happy to experiment with being as gentle as possible, but I've been in situations where the little offender's feelings were considered more important than an apology to a wounded party, and I didn't feel good about it.

Well, I have a mission for our family "to nurture a healthy (intellectual, spiritual, physical and mental) foundation, for each of us, from which to explore the world without fear". So, no. No desire for ds to fear us. I trust that our interconnectedness provides for natural development of empathy; both from experiencing it as the receiver, and from seeing it modeled for others.

Again, I don't see that this is an either/or issue. I can be concerned about and connect with the feelings and needs of both people, he who caused discomfort, AND connect with the wounded party. Applying blame is where things get confused. But, we choose not to embrace the blame/fault matrix and seek to address the underlying needs.

HTH, Pat


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Can you elaborate, Pat?

It's easy to assume that all of us would offer comfort and sympathy to the offendee. And I understand empathizing with the offender in ways (e.g. 'I see it made you upset when Becky wanted the toy you were playing with').

But does it stop there? Do you not go on to reinforce that hurting someone else is wrong or not acceptable or whatever language you choose to use? We all recognize obvious infractions, but for the purposes of the discussion here, where's the line between educating your child and shaming?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

*


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Don't you know some of those overly-GD'ed kids who are super entitled and show no fear of their parents or empathy for anyone else? And the mamas walk on eggshells around them not wanting to mess with their precious self esteem?
I know kids who fear their parents, and still show no empathy for anyone else. Not sure that the 2 are remotely related.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Somebody help me out by giving an example of how they handle it when their child hits another, and then does not spontaneously take responsiblity or act to remedy the matter?

I won't even get into "disappointment", "disapproval", "right and wrong". But, I find that one can make *observations without evaluation*, and that children are inherently able to SEE and PERCEIVE, with their own moral compass, the impact of their actions.

"Wow! Jimmy is hurt! He doesn't want to be hit. Hitting hurts! Jimmy, is your shoulder ok? Do you want me to rub it? Where is your mama, let's go find her. You sound sad. I am sad that you are hurt."

"Bobby, let's get Jimmy some ice. His shoulder really hurts. He is crying. He doesn't want to be hit. Are you wanting to play with the truck? Let's ask Jimmy for a turn with the truck. Maybe he'd like to trade this bulldozer. But, let's make sure he is ok. Maybe he needs a band-aid. Band-aides help when you are hurt, don't they? He feels sad since his shoulder hurts."

I hurt my elbow the other day. I fell very hard on the ice while trying to ice skate while holding on to ds. He was very concerned and wanted to rub it, put ice on it, and get me a band-aid. I have seen him offer concern the same way, many times toward other children too. And yes, he has had his share of pushing, hitting, grabbing when younger. But we focus on the feelings and needs surrounding the painful impact, and the feelings and needs generating the "behavior".

HTH, Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I know kids who fear their parents, and still show no empathy for anyone else. Not sure that the 2 are remotely related.

I know what you are saying. I'm not talking about hardcore fear that comes with abuse. I'm talking about some respect for the mama, because mama is the person who feeds you, guides you, protects you. Mama is not just another peer, and mama's opinions and feelings are pretty freaking important and worthy of respect. We may have crossposted, I talked about examples in my previous post.

If *my* child had run into traffic and I had to grab her back, she would have been very disconcerted and humbled by my obvious fear, and by the seriousness of my tone. I think this is a good thing.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
But does it stop there? Do you not go on to reinforce that hurting someone else is wrong or not acceptable or whatever language you choose to use? We all recognize obvious infractions, but for the purposes of the discussion here, where's the line between educating your child and shaming?

I do not judge actions as "acceptable/unacceptable", "right/wrong", "good/bad", "ok/not ok". I want the emphasis to be on consideration of another's feelings and needs, not on my approval or loss of approval/acceptance of ds's behavior. I believe that behaviors are messages of underlying needs, that those needs are VALID. And that there are alternative ways to get our needs met without disregarding another's feelings and needs. So, I facilitate and model focusing on feelings and needs. Does that clarify?

Pat


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Don't you know some of those overly-GD'ed kids who are super entitled and show no fear of their parents or empathy for anyone else?

Why would a person want their child to be afraid of them?
I don't know any kids and parents like the ones you describe. Could it be that the kids are not getting enough guidance? Maybe the mom just does everything for the kids without expecting anything from them or helping them at all?

Quote:

And the mamas walk on eggshells around them not wanting to mess with their precious self esteem?

Coz I do and they are not pretty. I don't want my kid to turn out like that. I'm happy to experiment with being as gentle as possible, but I've been in situations where the little offender's feelings were considered more important than an apology to a wounded party, and I didn't feel good about it.
For me, not wanting to force apologies has nothing to do with the child's self esteem. I think it's counter-productive to learning, and would make the child more resistant to apologizing. Honestly, I can't imagine having to force an apology--modeling and guiding has worked well for us.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I don't know any kids and parents like the ones you describe. Could it be that the kids are not getting enough guidance? Maybe the mom just does everything for the kids without expecting anything from them or helping them at all?

Well the one mama helps her kiddo a lot, the other mama I don't know as well how she is coz I keep my kid away from hers.

My impression, especially with the older child but with both to a degree, is that there is no (I want to say fear) respect for the parent. I don't mean hardcore fear, as I said above, but it's very disconcerting to have a child laugh in your face when you just rescued them from traffic, or kick your baby in your arms. I just feel like there needs to be a respect for the parent/other adult figures who care for them, that I sometimes see lacking. I am leary of taking some of the things I see here too far becoz I value that respect and I don't want to lose it in our dynamic. And I think the walking on eggshells, bending for our children and not expecting the same in return, as a recipe for that.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Okay. That *sounds* great, and reading it I think, "Well that's what I want for my family too! I must be going about this wrong."

But, then I think about examples of where I do expect a little fear. 5 year old child runs into traffic in a parking lot, although you've held his hand right to the car and just let go to open the door. A van is coming toward him, you sprint up behind him and swoop him up in your arms. You rush back to your car, out of harm's way, put him on the trunk and say in a panicked tone, "That was not okay! That was so dangerous! You could have been hit by that van!" Child looks at you and laughs hysterically, tries to run off again. Every time you bring it up on the way home, trying to impress upon the child how big of a deal it was, they laugh.

My preference is to provide information on how to be safe. Not to live in fear of the road. Didn't we just have this example. Let me find the post. Here it is: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...et#post6970523 This is very much the TCC way of addressing safety, imo. Providing adult guides and information; and trusting that children are not suicidal. And providing environments for their developmental and physical needs, of course. Knowledge protects when mama isn't right there every single second. Facilitating a trusted adviser relationship, instead of a feared one, increases the possibility that I will be considered a partner from whom to seek help, imo.

Quote:

Same child tries to hurt his baby sister, just for kicks. This is not a child whose needs are not met, not a child who is not loved. Child is from a very loving, AP, GD (overly GD?) home. You grab the baby out of the way and speak in a serious tone about the fact that this is not cool. Child laughs and tries again.
Sibling issues are challenging with a nuclear family attempting to meet the emotional and physical needs of multiple children alone. I believe the more connection, rather than fear, the child feels, the more gentle the child would be. Disconnection from the mama due to a new sibling's importance to the mama is very threatening and scary, I imagine. Again, I'd give information about the baby's needs, make observations, and validate the feelings underlying the hitting, and offer alternative ways to connect with the baby and mama. Perhaps, voicing "you want the baby to go away?", "you don't like the baby and want it to cry?" "are you feeling sad that the baby takes so much of mama's time?", "do you wish the baby wasn't here?" These help to connect with the child's emotions so that he isn't trying to "express" his emotions physically. Modeling *verbal* means of expressing ugly emotions often helps this situation. The book "Siblings Without Rivalry" addresses this more completely.

Quote:

Another child, 8 years old, again a loving GD home. Child has Asperger's diagnosis. Decides he hates your baby, becoz she is a girl and he hates girls. Throws an ice cube at her and tries to kick her while you hold her in your arms. Mama talks to him repeatedly about it, in a loving but concerned tone, then gives him extra love becoz obviously this is what he needs, he is incapable of stopping his behaviour of course, poor thing. He laughs and does it again, and again. Finally you say you can't deal with it and suggest time out. Altho she is sure it won't work, upon the next offence the mama gives the child a time out. For the rest of the trip this child who was 'incapable' of controlling his actions is somehow able to stop himself from inflicting further violence.
What do you believe were the child's underlying emotions? What do you believe he was trying to express? What alternative ways could he be facilitated to *express* them and/or get them addressed. I do not perceive that consideration of his feelings and needs was modeled. He was expected to stuff his feelings, under threat of punishment, for expressing his feelings and having needs. Do you perceive it differently? What do you believe he learned about the importance of consideration of other's feelings and needs?

Pat


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I won't even get into "disappointment", "disapproval", "right and wrong". But, I find that one can make *observations without evaluation*, and that children are inherently able to SEE and PERCEIVE, with their own moral compass, the impact of their actions.

"Wow! Jimmy is hurt! He doesn't want to be hit. Hitting hurts! Jimmy, is your shoulder ok? Do you want me to rub it? Where is your mama, let's go find her. You sound sad. I am sad that you are hurt."

"Bobby, let's get Jimmy some ice. His shoulder really hurts. He is crying. He doesn't want to be hit. Are you wanting to play with the truck? Let's ask Jimmy for a turn with the truck. Maybe he'd like to trade this bulldozer. But, let's make sure he is ok. Maybe he needs a band-aid. Band-aides help when you are hurt, don't they? He feels sad since his shoulder hurts."

I hurt my elbow the other day. I fell very hard on the ice while trying to ice skate while holding on to ds. He was very concerned and wanted to rub it, put ice on it, and get me a band-aid. I have seen him offer concern the same way, many times toward other children too. And yes, he has had his share of pushing, hitting, grabbing when younger. But we focus on the feelings and needs surrounding the painful impact, and the feelings and needs generating the "behavior".

HTH, Pat

That does help. I can see how you are leading your child toward the more desired behavior, actions and sentiments without using negative energies directed toward the child. I have absolutely no doubt that your children are gentle and sensitive to the needs of others







.

I incorporate these techniques, and _almost_ exculsively use reasoning and explanations. But I do also use parental pressure to guide dd. She is eager to please me and is sensitive to my disapproval and I do utilize this standing in her eyes to teach social behaviors. I think sometimes she'll stop throwing water at the restaurant not only because I've explained that someone might slip on it, but also because she wants mama to be happy with her, yk?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Providing adult guides and information; and trusting that children are not suicidal. And providing environments for their developmental and physical needs, of course. Knowledge protects when mama isn't right there every single second. Facilitating a trusted adviser relationship, instead of a feared one, increases the possibility that I will be considered a partner from whom to seek help, imo.

This is IMO about impulse control. This little guy just doesn't have it. He is not suicidal, but he does reckless things like this with some frequency. He does have the knowledge.

Quote:

Disconnection from the mama due to a new sibling's importance to the mama is very threatening and scary, I imagine.
Well, yes. But what are you going to do? I was caretaking for this boy and his sibling. His mama and papa are about as loving as you can be. It's problematic to always make the child's behaviours our fault, IMO, about something *we* need to change to change the underlying emotions, yk?

Fact is you don't get to hurt your baby sister. He got my kid into it and it became a game, becoz this was the first time I'd watched the baby along with them both. I tried talking to them, tried sitting them on the sofa to chill and talk about it, tried crafts/books/etc. They wouldn't drop it.

Finally I seperated them, put one on the stairs going up behind a babygate, and one on the stairs going down behind a babygate, and said they were staying there until they promised to quit, and would go right back if they didn't keep their promises. They were isolated from their partner in crime and both a little fearful, so they promised. Not very GD, but what are you gonna do, kwim?

Quote:

What do you believe were the child's underlying emotions? What do you believe he was trying to express? What alternative ways could he be facilitated to *express* them and/or get them addressed. I do not perceive that consideration of his feelings and needs was modeled. He was expected to stuff his feelings, under threat of punishment, for expressing his feelings and having needs. Do you perceive it differently? What do you believe he learned about the importance of consideration of other's feelings and needs?
I have no idea. This kid is on a kick of hating girls. It is downright sociopathic. He has not been abused, he was APed and GDed. He does messed up things like draws a bullseye with a girl in the centre. He told me when my daughter was wee that he liked her becoz she was a baby, but soon she would be a girl and he would hate her. And he followed thru. I have seen him target girl children time and time again, and he just gets spoken to about his feelings and what behaviour is and isn't appropriate by his mother.

This child bullies his mother, who doesn't stand up for herself in the name of being GD and respecting his feelings. Drives me freaking nuts! As I mentioned he is Aspergers, but IMO her spineless parenting style has permitted this child to be *much* more out of control than he would otherwise be. Which does nobody any favours, including and especially the child.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Somebody help me out by giving an example of how they handle it when their child hits another, and then does not spontaneously take responsiblity or act to remedy the matter? I'm not talking about punishment or belittling. But I would most certainly openly express disappointment and disapproval and it seems as though that is being catagorized as 'shaming' in this discussion. Maybe someone can give some illustrations of how they are dealing with similar scenarios using other methods?

I'll answer this one.

I think I fall somewhere in between, because it is important to me that my kiddos show respect and "manners", that they can function well in mainstream society. However, I try very hard to allow them to own their own feelings, and I will not tell Henry to say he's sorry if he's not. From my perspective, "sorry" is a feeling of repentance, of sympathy or empathy, and I cannot force him to feel those things. I also don't want him to learn that it's okay to hurt someone, offer a fake sentiment, and everyone's fine with that. So, this is an example of how I handle it when Henry hurts his friends - when it happens, I immediately sympathize with the other child, because I truly do feel sad for him or her, and then right away, I get down on Henry's level and ask him what happened. He will tell me incident as it occurred from his viewpoint, and then we discuss the playmate's feelings and I will offer the playmate's viewpoint:

"So, you both wanted to play with the truck and were pulling it back and forth between you and you let it go and it hit Lukas in the face? It looks like that hurt Lukas, and I think he feels sad. What can we do when our friends feel sad that might help them feel better?"

I try to avoid any codependent phrasing, so that he doesn't do it to "make them feel better" or put the responsibility of Lukas's reaction on him, but I do encourage empathy and problem solving by way of talking it out with him. We've had discussions about what "I'm sorry" means, and how it can help the other person to feel better about the incident, so I can jump right into, "how can we handle this now?" I'm the first to tell you that Henry is a really obedient, empathetic kid on his own, so I don't have to do much to encourage that in him, so if a child is less inclined to apologize, I really don't have much experience in that, but it works for us.

If Henry doesn't offer an apology after our first conversation, I'll just continue and say something like, "How do you feel that Lukas feels sad?" He'll answer, "Sad," or something like it, and I'll continue, "When you feel sad, what can your friend do that can help you feel better?" He'll almost always then, at that point, go apologize, but if he's just not feeling it, then I usually go apologize myself and follow up on it later with him. There's always a reason why he didn't, and deconstructing it with him at a less pressure-filled time is always helpful for me, so I don't force him into an insincere apology, nor does the other family have to watch us work through it, which sometimes makes *me* feel awkward, and I lose my words.









That's just my rambling, so let me know if I was unclear, or tell me to hush!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
"So, you both wanted to play with the truck and were pulling it back and forth between you and you let it go and it hit Lukas in the face? It looks like that hurt Lukas, and I think he feels sad. What can we do when our friends feel sad that might help them feel better?"

I think your example is a little too lacking in culpability for me. I wouldn't 'get on to' dd for this either, as it sounds like a clearly unintentional injury.

But what if your dc is, let's say, jealous of another child whom s/he dislikes anyway, draws back and hits the child with a fist? The other child is hurt and crying and your dc is standing there angry, defiant, confused. You start in with 'are you okay, Becky? Look, Becky's arm is hurt. It hurts to be hit.' Your dc counters with 'I don't care! She's bad!', turns and takes off with toy in tow.

Walk me through this kind of encounter, if that's okay. This is more what I'm picturing.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think your example is a little too lacking in culpability for me. I wouldn't 'get on to' dd for this either, as it sounds like a clearly unintentional injury.

But what if your dc is, let's say, jealous of another child whom s/he dislikes anyway, draws back and hits the child with a fist? The other child is hurt and crying and your dc is standing there angry, defiant, confused. You start in with 'are you okay, Becky? Look, Becky's arm is hurt. It hurts to be hit.' Your dc counters with 'I don't care! She's bad!', turns and takes off with toy in tow.

Walk me through this kind of encounter, if that's okay. This is more what I'm picturing.

Okay, see, this is where I can't be a good help, because we haven't had that scenario arise.







I promise I'm not one of those "my kid is perfect" mamas, but Henry's just never done that, and I haven't had to problem solve that situation yet. So, while I could go off and type a bunch of would I WOULD do words, I just think that would be presumptuous of me, since I would be talking out of my bootie.









Honestly, and this may earn me some flames, but I would probably simply say, "I need you to apologize to her, because that's what we do when we hurt someone." I'm glad you brought this up, because I'm going to have to think about it, and have a plan ready for when this does happen with us. Sorry I can't offer more.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I'll be honest, I'm not dealing with this degree of misbehavior either







. But this would easily be within the realm of toddler interaction, don't you think?

I _have_ had dd hit before, just not with this level of defiance and disregard for the other child. In such cases, aside from empathizing with the other child and encouraging dd to do so, I also would put a frown on my face, shake my head and say "oh no, honey. We don't hit, please. It hurts to be hit. You wouldn't want Becky to hit you, right?"

So I AM using some projection of my own intepretation of right and wrong here to influence dd's take on the matter. I'm wondering about the objection to this, if there is one?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think your example is a little too lacking in culpability for me. I wouldn't 'get on to' dd for this either, as it sounds like a clearly unintentional injury.

But what if your dc is, let's say, jealous of another child whom s/he dislikes anyway, draws back and hits the child with a fist? The other child is hurt and crying and your dc is standing there angry, defiant, confused. You start in with 'are you okay, Becky? Look, Becky's arm is hurt. It hurts to be hit.' Your dc counters with 'I don't care! She's bad!', turns and takes off with toy in tow.

Walk me through this kind of encounter, if that's okay. This is more what I'm picturing.

As I said, I don't see any benefit of focusing on "culpability", or imposing blame. I believe that these create defensiveness of the "justification" for our actions. Perhaps, you didn't see xyz happen first. Or perhaps, abc always happens when the other child is near. To a child, each of these "reasons" may feel like enough reason to strike out to express emotional distress. Some children certainly do use physicality to express their feelings and needs. I believe it is hard to observe all of the "conflict resolution" skills that other children use, in environments where the adult:child ratio is higher. (ie. children are learning from other children's examples, not just our own. This is a huge reason the author/psychologist of Hold On To Your Kids recommends avoiding early peer socialization. My goal is to model and facilitate *alternative* tools of conflict resolution: what *to do*, rather than what *not to do*.

But, I don't believe focusing on "who is to blame" helps matters, as we can't know all the variables in the toddler's mind/experience. I would say "Wow!! You hit Becky! What is happening? You seem very upset/angry! What do you need?! Hitting hurts! I want to help you. Let's take a break and talk about this." I would focus on what is happening from my child's emotional pov. (I am assuming that Becky's mama is right there comforting her immediate needs. Otherwise, I'd be comforting Becky and trying to comfort ds too.) We have had this happen a few times, in both directions. But, the *catalyst* for the aggression has a reason, imo. I do not believe that children are inherently "bad". And I have never used the phrase "being bad"; so I can not imagine our son stating that. But, there have been *reasons* and needs underlying the aggressive behaviors of the children that I have observed hitting, pushing, grabbing. I just believe that focusing on expressing "culpabilty" distracts from focusing on *impact* and *intent*, and from identifying alternative ways to meet the needs of everyone.

Pat


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
If *my* child had run into traffic and I had to grab her back, she would have been very disconcerted and humbled by my obvious fear, and by the seriousness of my tone.

My DS2 would have reacted that way.

DS1 would have been totally pissed off that I grabbed him, would have struggled to get away, and would have been completely irrational with anger. No amount of talking or reasoning would have accomplished anything.

Different temperaments react differently to the same parenting techniques.


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## mama42dds (Jul 9, 2006)

I have no problem asking/encouraging kids to apologize, just like I think it is important to encourage them to use good manners...developing these behaviours helps us all by creating a more civil society and it will serve them well...if we waited for everyone to believe/understand why doing something is right before expecting them to do it, the world would be a much worse place...

In my own experience, it isn't worth it to make such a big deal over most of this stuff...the kids usually just want to get back to playing. Simply saying that "hitting hurts and we should apologize when we hurt somebody" usually is how we deal with it...or "are you frustrated? why? it is ok to be frustrated but hitting hurts people and it is important not to hurt others..."

I think sometimes the parents make a bigger deal/reads into things more than perhaps is necessary imho...


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
but it's very disconcerting to have a child laugh in your face when you just rescued them from traffic, or kick your baby in your arms.

Here's the way I dealt with those two situations. I consider myself to be very GD (especially compared with everyone else I know IRL!







)

When Ds started to run across the parking lot I grabbed his clothes, yanked him towards me, told him "Hold my hand" and walked him to the store front. As we walked I explained, as simply as I could, that he had to always stay with me and why. I've showed him how to hold my hand and walk with me close to the parked cars.

For the first week after Dd was born, Ds was great with her. Then, slowly, the jealously kicked in. He started smacked her very hard in the face, kicking or stepping on her head, etc. For about two weeks I tried everything I could short of spanking or time-out (neither of which I use) to get him to stop hurting her. Then, one day, when Dd was 2.5 weeks old I managed to prevent Ds from hitting her at all. I was very proactive that day







At the end of the day, I handed him a sticker and said, "Look, Toey, you got a sticker for being so nice to Ja today! Where do you want it?" He was so happy to get a sticker. I surprised him with three more stickers, at random times, each time making sure he knew he was getting them for being nice to little sister. And guess what, he hasn't hit her since and she's going to be 4 months old on Friday. That's 14 weeks of him not hitting her just from getting four little stickers.









~Nay


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Wow! Look what I missed!!









I got somewhere on page 2 and had to post this before I forget - I apologize if it's been said after the point I stopped to post this...

There seems to be a lot of concern about a child laughing after the parent rescues him from traffic, or after being chided for hitting a baby. But I really _don't_ interpret the "laughing in your face" as saying "F*** You, B*tch! MuaHahahahah!!" ...or anything even similar.

I have noticed that children can have a hard time with heavy situations and will try what tools they have to diffuse intensity beyond what they are capable of processing at that time.

When I have had these kinds of sitaution with DS he ususally either makes a joke, initiates a game, or wants to do anything else but soak up the seriousness of what can happen if you run in the street without looking. I don't choose to paint this with a label of "defiance". It's just dealing. No matter how much I might want for DS to just "get it" so I can feel safer about it all, no amount of my wanting that will make it happen.

Attempts to use "fear of parent" to make up for lack of depth to toddler understanding of how bad cars can hurt you do not make the toddler understand it more. It just introduces "fear of parent" thinking.

One tot with tot-level of understanding + one shaming parent = one tot with tot-level understanding who is now afraid of parent without knowing why. It does _not_ equal a tot who magically now sees the depth of the danger and appreciates the love that motivated the parent to protect him from said danger. No matter how much one may want that to be true.


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## paint-the-moon (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
Wow! Look what I missed!!









I got somewhere on page 2 and had to post this before I forget - I apologize if it's been said after the point I stopped to post this...

There seems to be a lot of concern about a child laughing after the parent rescues him from traffic, or after being chided for hitting a baby. But I really _don't_ interpret the "laughing in your face" as saying "F*** You, B*tch! MuaHahahahah!!" ...or anything even similar.

I have noticed that children can have a hard time with heavy situations and will try what tools they have to diffuse intensity beyond what they are capable of processing at that time.

When I have had these kinds of sitaution with DS he ususally either makes a joke, initiates a game, or wants to do anything else but soak up the seriousness of what can happen if you run in the street without looking. I don't choose to paint this with a label of "defiance". It's just dealing. No matter how much I might want for DS to just "get it" so I can feel safer about it all, no amount of my wanting that will make it happen.

Attempts to use "fear of parent" to make up for lack of depth to toddler understanding of how bad cars can hurt you do not make the toddler understand it more. It just introduces "fear of parent" thinking.

One tot with tot-level of understanding + one shaming parent = one tot with tot-level understanding who is now afraid of parent without knowing why. It does _not_ equal a tot who magically now sees the depth of the danger and appreciates the love that motivated the parent to protect him from said danger. No matter how much one may want that to be true.

Most excellent points, aira!


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

I agree entirely that children may react inappropriately when they are overwhelmed.

The other night my four year old son accidentally ran into the coffee table and knocked a plate of food on the floor. It was a huge mess and I think he was afraid to get in trouble. He looked at me with a huge smile on his face and when I said, "oops, an accident! Let's clean that up together," his smile faded and his eyes started watering. I think once he felt free to express his real emotions without being shamed or harshly disciplined, he let the real feelings surface - he was upset that he hurt himself and spilled his food.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
My DS2 would have reacted that way.

DS1 would have been totally pissed off that I grabbed him, would have struggled to get away, and would have been completely irrational with anger. No amount of talking or reasoning would have accomplished anything.

Different temperaments react differently to the same parenting techniques.

Yep. And it doesn't mean they are sociopaths. My dd could easily discern when I was serious about something, like traffic, simply by my tone of voice, which I made serious, but didn't even go overboard trying to be frightening. She easily and quickly incorporated those messages and was, and is, very safety-oriented.

My ds, who is only 20 months, opened the preheating oven the other day while I picked the baby up off the bed. I was gone less than 15 seconds, and he wasn't even in the kitchen when I left. We've tried time and again to imprint the importance of staying away from the oven, and when I came back I freaked out. I didn't yell at him, but I was very scared. So scared it made him cry. But about two seconds after I'd consoled him, he ran over and tried to open the door again. He's just different, and no amount of "making him culpable for his actions" is going to help, at least not now. I will continue to reinforce this message, but I also went and bought yet another baby gate.

Some kids just take longer to learn things, they're genuinely wired differently. It's just not that helpful to compare them, or to assume it's because their parents are worried about their self-esteem. It's too hard to see the whole picture, IMO.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I also wanted to add something to the original discussion. ITA with KristiMetz that tone of voice can be sooo shaming. My BIL makes my nephew's name into a bad word. It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I don't know if he's aware of that, but I think it's definitely possible to make the most neutral statement into a shamng one simply by tone of voice.

My dh also does the, "Well, if you hadn't..." or the "I told you that was going to happen." I know he tries not to, but sometimes can't help himself, and I've seen firsthand how that prevents a child from learning from natural consequences. They're so distracted by the parent's emotions that they can't focus on their own and absorb what just happened and how to prevent it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

*


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

This thread really takes me back to last weekend when I was visiting my brother and sil and their 2 dds (4 and 2.5). I don't have any experience with this stuff as my ds is only 14 months, but I have observed some things from my bro's family.

Here's the situation:
Dn1 wants a banana. Sil has said that since dn1 finished all her cereal she can have a banana. Dn2 chimes in that she wants one too, so sil says that they can split one. Dn1 wants the banana to herself, so she tells sil that dn2 didn't finish her cereal. Sil asks me if dn2 finished her cereal (I was sitting at the table at the time) and I say yes (not having listened to the situation up till now I didn't know what was going on). So the problem is that dn1 lied about dn2's behavior to get what she wanted.

Sil and bro get mad at dn1 and tell her that it is NOT okay to lie and that she needs to apologize to dn2 RIGHT NOW! She gets defensive and sullen and doesn't apologize. They continue to insist that she apologize and she's not getting her banana/going outside/playing with toys, etc. until she does. She mumbles and apology and reaches for her banana. Sil says that that wasn't a "genuine" apology and she needs to do a better job. Dn1 bitterly (but clearly and with minimum "attitude") says "I'm sorry."

A moment of silence where it's clear no one is satisfied with the situation, but no one wants to drag it out any further. Then things go back to normal.

So what I want to know (from those of you who think forcing an apology is a good thing to do) is

1. Do you think dn2 benefited from this apology? Do you think she believed her sister was sorry for lying about her? How do you think this situation influenced a 2.5-year-old's perception of why one should apologize and what "I'm sorry" means? Was the apology in any way for dn2's benefit?

2. How did this situation benefit dn1? Do you think she learned the value of saying "I'm sorry"? Do you think her sister's welfare or the concept of honesty even went through her head during the altercation? I suspect she was just mad at being shamed, defensive, and probably wondering why she couldn't just have the stinking banana.

This wasn't the only situation over the three days I was there where an apology was demanded and a power struggle ensued. I guess I just don't see the point or the benefit in going this route.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
My DS2 would have reacted that way.

DS1 would have been totally pissed off that I grabbed him, would have struggled to get away, and would have been completely irrational with anger. No amount of talking or reasoning would have accomplished anything.

Different temperaments react differently to the same parenting techniques.

Switch my ds1 and my ds2 and I can say ditto to this post. It has been very humbling having a second child. Here I was thinking I had this parenting thing all figured out because ds1 was such an obviously sensitive and reasonable child. And while ds2 is a very sweet child, he does not react the same way AT ALL. He is a "my way or the highway" type of child.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
This thread really takes me back to last weekend when I was visiting my brother and sil and their 2 dds (4 and 2.5). I don't have any experience with this stuff as my ds is only 14 months, but I have observed some things from my bro's family.

Here's the situation:
Dn1 wants a banana. Sil has said that since dn1 finished all her cereal she can have a banana. Dn2 chimes in that she wants one too, so sil says that they can split one. Dn1 wants the banana to herself, so she tells sil that dn2 didn't finish her cereal. Sil asks me if dn2 finished her cereal (I was sitting at the table at the time) and I say yes (not having listened to the situation up till now I didn't know what was going on). So the problem is that dn1 lied about dn2's behavior to get what she wanted.


I know this doesn't answer your question, but I just can't resist: Why would anyone insist a child finished their processed cereal before having a banana?

But the situation you described is exactly why I think forced apologies are useless.


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
With regards to the whole I'm sorry issue, this is how we've handled it at preschools I've worked at. We ask the child to "check in with" the one who has been hurt. Usually we model asking "are you okay?" Then the child who has been hurt gets the chance to express their feelings which is often what they need more than hearing an apology. We then model asking them what they need to feel better. If they want the offending party to say sorry they will say that. If not the issue isn't forced. Of course sometimes the other child refuses to apologize, which frankly is their right. As the adult in the situation I would state that "so-and-so doesn't feel like saying sorry right now. But I'm sorry you got hurt, what can I do to help you feel better?"

Basically I feel that it is our responsibility to model and encourage pro-social behavior. But we can't control what children say or feel. When it comes to "please" and "thank-you" I also encourage a child to say them, but don't force the issue. But honestly I think it is our responsibility to let people know how to treat us respectfully. If my Dh rudely demanded me to get him something, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him "I'd prefer if you would say 'would you please get me the ______?'" This is the same thing I do when a child at the snack table shouts "Juice, Juice, Juice" at me. I just say "would you please pass the juice?" They usually repeat it back and I say "yes I would be happy to"

I just don't see this as shaming. My goal is not to make them feel bad or guilty. I want to let the child know how to treat others with respect. And it's not about "respecting" me as the adult. I model this same behavior to be used between two children. If we don't model appropriate behavior or we don't expect it from children, how do they learn it? Once again I never force the issue. I model the language once, if the child doesn't respond I let it go.

The funny thing about this - I STILL have to remind my husband of manners when it comes to this! LOL! I must admit, I too *remind* my children when they leave the key words out but do not enforce it. I have found though, by modeling, I don't really have situations that would require enforcing if I was an enforcer.

The only one I find I have to remind them of from time to time is "please" but only because they don't realize how demanding the request sounded. Then, I don't have to request they say it, I simply say it for them (to the waitress, for example) and they will follow with "oh, sorry! - please"







and smile when they realize how it sounded. Hey - maybe I do show them by doing it for them







: This is the main one I have to remind my husband of! He'll so many times be sitting at the table and say, "pass me the ...." (comes across very demanding the way he says it) and I will say, "Please?" and he will repeat. I don't like to in front of the girls but if they are there and he does that in front of them and I DON'T say anything, then I would fear it would come across that they are being treated inferior to adults. KWIM?


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I know this doesn't answer your question, but I just can't resist: Why would anyone insist a child finished their processed cereal before having a banana?

Oh, don't even get me started!!! You wouldn't believe the number of times I have to bite my tongue...









And why couldn't she have given each of them their own banana?!?! There was a whole bunch just sitting there! But that's really none of my business.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Yesterday a woman told me that her daughter is refusing diaper changes so she (direct quote), "shame(s) her by telling her that she's dirty and disgusting."







: This is the same woman who yelled at another little boy at the playarea for pushing her daughter until the boy cried. She came up to me and asked me if she should feel bad when she makes little kids cry because she just doesn't.







:

I was sooooo shocked that I didn't say a word and now I am kicking myself.


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## SuperMama (Jan 22, 2007)




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