# so how bad REALLY is soy milk?



## sunnylady303 (Sep 17, 2004)

My little girl is allergic to dairy and she loves soy milk. I know there are reasons not to let her have a lot. But she probably has some every day. How bad is it? Why is it bad? Is there anything good about it?


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## lauriem33 (Nov 9, 2005)

I know this is a contoversial topic. You'll find people who feel soy is fine and those who think it's terrible for you. I personally don't buy soy products specifically, but it's in so many products so we don't avoid it either. One site I've used and passed on to friends who think they should put their kids on soy milk (boys) is http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm It is from the anti-soy side and it has info from lots of sources, Mercola being one of them. Maybe someone else has info about what may be good about soy for you?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I think it's bad.

Soy contains anti nutrients called phytates which impair the absorption of minerals and effectiveness of digestive enzymes.

And it's been implicated in early puberty for girls. If menopausal women use it to effectively reduce hot flashes (my MIL drinks soy milk smoothies everday for this reason) the fact that it contains plant estrogens is pretty well proven to me right there.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Personally I wouldn't give it to my children ever. But I am lucky, they do not have a dairy intolerance, but then they (at least my younger two) have never had anything but raw milk from pasture-fed cows.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

There are a lot of people here who follow the Nourishing Traditions diet. Some of the big time NT leaders are rabidly anti-soy and many other anti-soy organizations can be traced back to dairy and cattle industries.

I'm not one of them. I'm vegan and I eat soy and will feed it to my children as long as they are not allergic. There are some nutritional points that are true about soy, such as what forms you eat it in. But most of the anti-soy articles talk a lot without much non-related research to back it up.

Here are some articles by vegans/vegetarians that are not PRO-soy but try to be more balanced.

http://www.vegfamily.com/health/vega...nformation.htm

http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Many people who react to dairy also react to soy. My advice would be to at least rotate between different milks so that she wasn't getting the same thing every day. Soy, rice, oat, almond and hazelnut are all very good. That way you aren't overdoing her exposeure in case she is sensitive. I'm not anti-soy, I just think it needs to be in pure or fermented forms-not processed. Tofu, tempeh and miso are all fine with me. And ITA with pp. Most anti-soy campaigns are funded by the dairy council.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

re: funding of anti soy messages

I wouldn't doubt it, makes me sick how information to the masses is "managed". Just a little reading about how hydrogenated fat and then the current nightmare, canola oil, was marketed is sickening. I basically believe NOTHING that is said about nutrition in the mainstream, it really is all marketing and not science.

www.WestonAPrice.org is very anti soy and is privately funded and nonprofit... and completely anti dairy council!


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## kellygo (Jan 17, 2006)

Rice milk might be a good alternative.


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## Pinky Tuscadero (Jul 5, 2003)

My kids really like Rice Dream. Maybe you could try that as a non-controversial alternative. In our house it's rice juice since rice don't lactate!









Suzy


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## artisticat (Jul 28, 2004)

Soy is very allergenic, not to mention it contains alot of anti-nutrients. I am in the middle of reading The WHole Soy Stor. I definetely will not ever give my dd soy. I do think miso and tempeh if fermented in the right way occasionally wouldn't be so bad.

I do follow the NT diet and think they are right on being anti-soy. As far as I know the Weston A. Price foundation has nothing to gain being anti-soy or anti-trans fat for that matter. They promote buying from local farmers and I doubt the local farmers are paying oodles for their support







or campaining.

It just can't understand how some vegtetarians think they are being healthy and then eating such processed foods as most soy products are. If you look at the research the Asian culture does not eat a l ot of soy and when they eat it it is a naturally fermented and eaten as a condiment.

Just my .02


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

That's true. I'm vegan, and my veg friends and I joke about the veggies that really are soytarians. It absolutely shouldn't be the base of a diet IMO.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
That's true. I'm vegan, and my veg friends and I joke about the veggies that really are soytarians. It absolutely shouldn't be the base of a diet IMO.

Yep, I agree. I do not know for sure that soy is a no-no but I am not about to be part of the experiment.


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## Jadzia (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
That's true. I'm vegan, and my veg friends and I joke about the veggies that really are soytarians. It absolutely shouldn't be the base of a diet IMO.

Well, I'm veg I eat far less soy than the amount of meat & dairy the average American eats.

Soy milk on my cereal, and some tofu in my veggie stir-fry hardly constitutes a soy-based diet.

I don't think any diet should be based on 1 or 2 foods (which is what many so-called omnivores do). But soy, like other legumes, is a wonderful addition to a varied, plant-based diet.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Exactly. Variety is the spice of life, right? But it's amazing to me how many vegetarians eat soy at every meal. I mean even alot of good veggie cookbooks rely heavily on soy (meat, cheese and other replacers.) That isn't healthy. The key is definitely a varied diet based heavily on produce. I do eat soy, just not every day.


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

A few years ago, we quit dairy milk and went on commerical soy milk. We loved it, and while we never drank as much soy as we did dairy, I still worried about all the controversys over it. A few months ago, I established a rule where DD would not be allowed to drink 'milk' (as in soy beverage). She was still allowed to have it in cereal, but that's all. In the mean time, I bought a Soyjoy and decided that if we were to consume soy milk, we should at least try to eat the whole bean (via milk and okara). My efforts to come up with a soy milk recipe that Siobhana actually liked was fruitless. Then I made rice milk, and she loved it. Next I made raw almond milk and she loved that too.

So it's been a few weeks now since we started rice and almond milk, but because we still have so much soy milk in the house, we're still having it on our cereal occasionally (when we're out of rice or almond) or sometimes mixing it.

My next goal is to get rid of all dairy substitues. That would mean no veg. "milks" either. I'm still trying to figure that one out, but I know eventually we'll do it. Someone should really start a support thread for that


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## Alana (Jan 4, 2005)

I just know for us, it was not a good thing. We were all vegan for 2yrs, and my soy consumption was maybe a glass a day of soy milk....or on my cereal and tofu once a week. A few months ago I started losing HANDFULLS of hair, developed lizardy dry skin on my legs, was always cold, and did NOT feel good. My thyroid tested fine, but I found out I had fibro. My chiro told me I needed to eat meat like yesterday and get off all soy. I did, and my hair stopped falling out, I feel as close to normal as is possible with fibro and my skin isnt dry anymore. I also noticed that my boys reacted VERY badly to it. Within 10 minutes of drinking a cup or eating tofu they would MELT DOWN and it was NOT pretty! Some people however do great on soy products....it just does not work for our family.


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

I thought that soy beans were extremely healthy. It is one of the only veggies my dh likes so I have been buying them a lot lately. He eats them as a snack. Is there any reason why we should stop eating them?


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

I'll admit right up front, I am a soy-lover - in all shape and forms, from edamame on up. I've lived in Asia (China & Japan) for 4 years, and have to say, soy is a HUGE PART of the staple diets in both places - fresh and fermented, yes, but also in hundreds of other forms, many of which you can't get here. It is a staple ... AND a condiment. Just my random .02.


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## mommystinch (May 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
And it's been implicated in early puberty for girls.


While I'm not going to argue the possibility of that, I wonder if the people who have pointed this out are at all related to the meat industry. It seems to me that a lot has been done to downplay the possibility of all of the growth hormones found in animal products being the most likely cause of early puberty. I mean, many, many more girls are eating diets bassed around hormone filled animal products than they are soy.

As for us, we are trying to find a balance. For a while, we used soymilk or tofu for almost everything. Now, we're trying to limit it. I've been buying rice milk for dd instead of soy and haven't been buying tofu at all lately. Like a pp said, it's about a well rounded diet. Even if soy is great, it shouldn't be the main part of your diet. I don't believe for a second that it is as evil as some people make it out to be, but it's probably not a miracle food either. Heck, you can find studies saying that apples are bad for you if you try. It's all about gimicks by certain industries to scare you into buying one product instead of another.


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## lauriem33 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DianaEvelyn*
I thought that soy beans were extremely healthy. It is one of the only veggies my dh likes so I have been buying them a lot lately. He eats them as a snack. Is there any reason why we should stop eating them?

Unless you are buying organic, the majority of soybeans are GMO. Besides the estrogen issue, that is the other big reason why I don't buy it.


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauriem33*
Unless you are buying organic, the majority of soybeans are GMO. Besides the estrogen issue, that is the other big reason why I don't buy it.

sorry, what is GMO?


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

GMO- Genetically Modified Organism you can read more here.









When ds was about 2 he was having repeated ear infections and to try to alleviate this we switched to soy vs. dairy. Me, too. Anyway, my menstrual cycles completely stopped. I went to the doc & they couldn't explain why. I talked to a friend about it & she suggested it might be the soy. Sure enough, I got off soy & it all came back. I saw that as a personal experiment I would rather not play a part in for myself or my dc's. That's not to say we don't have ANY soy. We, on occasion, eat tofu & veggie burgers, but I am cautious about how many soy products we ingest.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alana*
I just know for us, it was not a good thing. We were all vegan for 2yrs, and my soy consumption was maybe a glass a day of soy milk....or on my cereal and tofu once a week. A few months ago I started losing HANDFULLS of hair, developed lizardy dry skin on my legs, was always cold, and did NOT feel good. My thyroid tested fine . . .Some people however do great on soy products....it just does not work for our family.

My story is the same except that I still eat soy but only tempeh (fermented soy). I switched to rice milk and sometimes oat milk. I wouldn't give my ds soy milk--I am too afraid of it's side effects. When I became vegan a few years ago, soy was my crutch to help me make the transition. Phasing it out of my diet has really allowed me to broaden my eating and do vegetarianism better for me (I do eat orgo. free-range eggs now).


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## HRC121799 (Aug 8, 2003)

We've been thinking about this the last couple of months. One big thing we've done is not buy any processed (fake meats, etc.) soy, and we only use tempeh & tofu very sporadically (every few months). We had switched the boys from Soy milk to Rice milk, and then recently we switched back to Soy milk (silk), because of the nutrients (isn't it more "hearty" than rice milk?). They probably only drink 1 cup a day, and then if we have oatmeal. But we might switch back to rice milk for baking etc. and drinking. Then I guess we'd be soy free pretty much. I don't know what to think, there's so much conflicting information! I'd like to get ds off the "milks" altogether for drinking, and just bake/cook with rice milk. But he *loves* drinking milk. I don't know. Sorry I'm no help.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommystinch*
While I'm not going to argue the possibility of that, I wonder if the people who have pointed this out are at all related to the meat industry. It seems to me that a lot has been done to downplay the possibility of all of the growth hormones found in animal products being the most likely cause of early puberty. I mean, many, many more girls are eating diets bassed around hormone filled animal products than they are soy.


But guess what they are feeding those cows? You guessed it soy feed! Eat grass-fed beef.....

It is no joke. Soy is in nearly everything. 99% of chocolate (lecithin is from soy and it's an emulsifier founf in choc), soybean oil is found in nearly every bread product that is not fresh from the oven (ie restaurant bread), canola spray, dressings, condiments, soy protien in drinks and seasonings, PRE-natal vitamins (also as an emulsifier)!!......

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
I've lived in Asia (China & Japan) for 4 years, and have to say, soy is a HUGE PART of the staple diets in both places - fresh and fermented, yes, but also in hundreds of other forms, many of which you can't get here. It is a staple ... AND a condiment. Just my random .02.


It is one of those things that yes, In small amounts and in the right forms are probably totally fine but we've gone over board and now we are, like another poster said, an "experiment"...that can be said for Asians as well...in the past they comsumed soy in fermented forms and as condiments but more recently they have adopted it the same way we have--they are just as much part of the experiment as we are!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

HRC121799-I would recommend almond milk over rice. Rice is okay on occasion-but almond is closer to soy in terms of being thicker and richer. It's available in vanilla or orginal so it can be used as a replacement. Rice doesn't really have any nutrients, so I use it for things like making frosting for cakes or where something light is needed. I would NEVER give soy milk to my family. As a pp poster said it is found in everything. We don't buy any commercial products so we avoid it pretty well. We also don't eat out-ever. That's another reason I feel okay about tempeh, tofu and miso occasionally in our diets.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy*
Some of the big time NT leaders are rabidly anti-soy and many other anti-soy organizations can be traced back to dairy and cattle industries.









:
But with that said, and myself being a veg'n and the kids too, we don't drink any millks. Water water water and juice for treats. Kids don't need to drink any milks IMO. Calcium comes in other forms, vitamin D is at your window ( for many of us) and E is also plentiful in the Western diet.
I do buy Almond milk and soy milk for cooking, the occasional bowl of cereal, and the kids too. But we stick to water is for thirst and food is for nourishment (after weaning!)


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauriem33*
Unless you are buying organic, the majority of soybeans are GMO.

I thought organic soybeans didn't mean they were necessarily non-GMO either?


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## Joyful Mama (Jan 17, 2006)

i'm vegan, and i don't use a LOT of soy, but i don't really avoid it, either. i don't each much straight-up tofu, but i love the occasional veggie burger. and i LOVE soymilk, but also buy rice milk, and i tend to drink the rice milk a little more frequently than the soy. my DS is 11 months, and the pediatrician thought he might be allergic to soy, but it turns out he's not. i won't feed him a LOT of soy, but he loves his soy yogurt, and i don't see a problem. like some of you others said, everything in moderation.


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## Poddi (Feb 18, 2003)

Everything in moderation is the key. I'm Asian and we definitely like soy products. I can eat soo much edamame in a sitting.







But on average we probably have soy once or twice a week. There are so many yummy stuff out there to be eaten.

Early puberty can be caused by all sorts of different reasons. I thought most people think it's because of growth hormones in milk and other food? I once read something saying it can be related to stress, too. They found girls from broken families, especially those growing up without their fathers tend to reach puberty a whole year earlier than others. It's supposed to be a survival thing. Active girls also tend to have periods later, probably because they're a bit thinner. I heard that girls need to reach 90-100 lbs to start periods.

Also, isn't it true that girls in warmer area have their periods earlier than girls in colder area? Then it might have something to do with the climate change as well. After all we're still rebounding from Little Ice Age, when girls had their periods much later. It's quite warm over 1000 years ago, but we probably don't have detailed data of girls' periods from back then. I do remember reading an ancient Chinese medicine book (written over 1000 years ago) explaining human life cycles. It explained why girls have periods at 14 and boys mature at 16. That's not exactly late compared to, say, the 19th century data. (My grandma, my mom and I all had first period at 14.) If heat really affects a girls' puberty we should probably consider the modern heating as well. Long ago people probably didn't walk around in winter time in a t-shirt while their house was toasty warm. Think about how little we actually walk around in the cold nowadays. It's probably like we all live in sub-tropical area.







Of course I haven't read any studies about this, just my speculations.


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## mamaGjr (Jul 30, 2004)

should i eat meat ? or soy? or whatever?

i am so confused? luckily i know what is best for us but is still want to see some studies on both halfs !

we had young family over today and we all think kids are bigger these days b/c of hormones in the meat , dairy etc

we all try not to eat those products but we are also not hypocrites!
they all eat meat , i don't ...i think tofu and edamame are fine ....prove me wrong


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## Alana (Jan 4, 2005)

People could just be larger due to better nutrition availability, longer life spans, which all translates down through genetics...natural adaptation and all that. But then again my "little" brother is 6'10" and is HUGE..he plays for a college basketball team.

We were vegan for 2 yrs, but now we eat grass fed meats. Trader Joes has some that arent too expensive. Once we move and buy a large freezer, we will order some from an organic farmer. There are SO many differences of opinions, and so much bias in nutrition writings. Once I discovered that PCRM is tied into PETA and there are hardly any Dr's on board, I couldnt take them seriously. Then when I read on VegOutreach.com that being vegan is not necessarily the healthier way of life....that cinched it for me. I avoid soy as much as possible now, and just eat clean meat and tons of veggies and legumes.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

T but had to chime....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alana*
Once I discovered that PCRM is tied into PETA and there are hardly any Dr's on board, I couldnt take them seriously.

PCRM is independent, but yes, most veg groups do have views in common with PETA. I have been a member of PCRM for years ( as a public health worker, nutrtitional approaches to public health are a big concern for me). The publish evidence-based research in many journals including the big ones like New England Journal of Medicine. As far as not being doctors, the board consists of mostly doctors! MD and Sc.D is a doctorate, DrPH and PhD is a doctorate and the MPH and RD are highly recongnized medical field specialities ( I am doing my MPH right now actually). So I just wanted to pass it on in case you had not seen this and someone told you otherwise.









PCRM Board of Directors: Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President; Roger Galvin, Esq., Secretary; Andrew Nicholson, M.D., Director.

PCRM's advisory board includes 11 health care professionals from a broad range of specialties:
Neal D. Barnard, M.D.
T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. Cornell University
Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. The Cleveland Clinic
Suzanne Havala Hobbs, Dr.PH., M.S., R.D. The Vegetarian Resource Group
Henry J. Heimlich, M.D., Sc.D. The Heimlich Institute
Lawrence Kushi, Sc.D. Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente
Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. Nutrition Matters, Inc.
John McDougall, M.D. McDougall Program, St. Helena Hospital
Milton Mills, M.D. Gilead Medical Group
Myriam Parham, R.D., L.D., C.D.E. East Pasco Medical Center
William Roberts, M.D. Baylor Cardiovascular Institute
Andrew Weil, M.D. University of Arizona


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

It's obviously a personal journey-the whole do I eat meat or don't I thing. For me I cut out animal products for health reasons and after over a decade of suffering healed completely. It was after reading Dr. Joel Fuhrman and Dr. John McDougall that I decided to try it. They had many valid and great points. Obviously the fact that I healed myself when countless docs couldn't meant alot. I still couldn't decide if that's how we were meant to eat though. After MORE reading-lol-I found what I felt was great scientific data that noone was able to refute that made me believe that we really weren't meant to eat meat-dairy or any other animal products at all. One of the major factors was looking at our digestive tract and comparing it to a carnivores and an herbivores. It's NOTHING like that of a carnivore-not even close. Combine that with info I got from several other sources regarding levels of contamination in even organic meats and dairy and I was done. One book I loved for this was Diet for a New World by John Robbins. It addresses meat and dairy consumption for three standpoints. Ethical, health and ecological. Not all of his info is 100%, but he gives you all the references so you can decide for yourself. That was just my perspective. I also find it interesting that most diets meant to heal cancer, autoimmune diseases and heart disease are vegan. If they're so healing, why don't we just eat that way preventatively?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I changed from being lowfat vegetarian after reading this site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html

"Nourishing Traditions" based on Price's work presents research, both current and traditional, showing an omni diet with fermented foods and animal fats is preventative of cancer, autoimmune disease and heart disease... because it's based on what native populations actually ate. Price couldn't find a vegan society at all that was healthy... and he really looked b/c he first believed in it as well.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

I would love for Dr. Price's work to become academically publised and or subjected to controlled trials etc. That has been my frustration with his work- he is the only publisher and all references are just his ( that I can find). I do agree with the basics of his research ( which was only 14 indigenous groups in our whole wide world, right?) that tooth decay is just not really seen in populations that avoid sugars, processed grains, etc.
But no one will talk me into eating animals ( especially which are not indigenous to my geography and heritage!) I have the luxury of staying healthy without dependance on animals, and I am so thankful for that. But I guess we are straying from the OP...I still say stick to water to drink


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Just to throw another thougt about soy/rice/nut milks...

We stopped drinking Rice Dream and other brands like Pacific because someone passed on to me that the water used to make them has a high floride content. This was done in an independant lab study showing that Rice Dream had one of the highest floride contents. So I called the company directly and they give me the old "we can not divulge that information..." What? You can't tell me if I am drinking a toxic substance? That was answer enough for me. The other companies gave similar answers, except for one...Lundberg Farms assured us that they take the time to filter out floride. So that is our "milk treat".


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## HRC121799 (Aug 8, 2003)

We bought almond milk a couple of days ago at the grocery store, I'll try it on the boys and see how they like it.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
HRC121799-I would recommend almond milk over rice. Rice is okay on occasion-but almond is closer to soy in terms of being thicker and richer. It's available in vanilla or orginal so it can be used as a replacement. Rice doesn't really have any nutrients, so I use it for things like making frosting for cakes or where something light is needed. I would NEVER give soy milk to my family. As a pp poster said it is found in everything. We don't buy any commercial products so we avoid it pretty well. We also don't eat out-ever. That's another reason I feel okay about tempeh, tofu and miso occasionally in our diets.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*
I would love for Dr. Price's work to become academically publised and or subjected to controlled trials etc. That has been my frustration with his work- he is the only publisher and all references are just his ( that I can find). I do agree with the basics of his research ( which was only 14 indigenous groups in our whole wide world, right?) that tooth decay is just not really seen in populations that avoid sugars, processed grains, etc.

It's not really what you don't eat but what you do. Avoiding processed grains and sugar is just the half of it. Getting fat soluble vitamins from animal sources was the common thread he found in all native populations. And I seem to remember one vegetarian reference he made but that the people really were not... because insects infested their grains etc. so they got some key nutrients from eating them!









See this other thread in Dental Forum on "Curing Cavities with Nutrition" for more info on fat soluble vitamins:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=399989

His work is furthered by the WAP nutritional foundation. I know Dr. Mary Enig for one conducts lipid research
www.westonaprice.org

"Nourishing Traditions" quotes tons of published research studies.

And the Price Pottenger foundation
www.price-pottenger.org


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

My head is starting to hurt from all the contrasting diets that all claim the same results







I'm desperate to learn more so I can come to my own conclusions, but the amount of information is outstanding, and I'm feeling very intimidated. At the same time, I want to just cut to the chase and find out what's best so I can make dietary changes ASAP! The only food-related decision that is set in stone for our family is to go organic. I really wish it were easier sometimes (though my DP and I accept responsibility for our lifestyle choices).

Anyway, I liked the term mama_nomad used: "Milk treat"
That's a great way of looking at it IMO.


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## lauriem33 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siana*
I thought organic soybeans didn't mean they were necessarily non-GMO either?









An excellent page of info on GMO is here.
It has info on the most common GMO foods and brands, as well as links to other resources.

This is from here.

Quote:

"In North America, all soy that is labeled "organic soy" is guaranteed to not be genetically-manipulated and not be treated with herbicides. Look for soy products and ingredients (e.g., tofu, tempeh, miso, soy sauce, soy milk, etc.) which are organic. All other soy ingredients are almost always genetically-manipulated and herbicide-treated."
"The List of Companies Pledging to Remove GMO Ingredients is another very useful resource."


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*
I would love for Dr. Price's work to become academically publised and or subjected to controlled trials etc. That has been my frustration with his work- he is the only publisher and all references are just his ( that I can find). I do agree with the basics of his research ( which was *only 14 indigenous groups in our whole wide world, right?*)

No, not just 14. I had to go back to my copy of "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" to check. Each of the 12 chapters are catagories of people.

For example, he studied 15 African tribes including the Masai, Pygmies, Arabs and Dinkas.

The Eskimos and Native North American Indians, numbered 39 villages and tribes all over Canada. Also Native North American tribes in Florida and New Mexico.

The Native South American trip included stops at more than 20 villages from Panama to lower Peru.

The Polynesians included tribes on the islands of Fiji, Hawaii, Samoa, Tongo and Tahiti among others.

In many chapters, the native people had very different diets depending on their land and access to seafood for example.

Even more similar groups he studied, like Switzerland, Ireland and New Zealand, he visited from 10-25 villages, both modern and isolated.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

My problem isn't with weston price- i actually think he does a good job given that his "research wasn't really meant to be nutritional advice in the beginning, it was just his personal journey. It is valid. My problem is that no matter how hard you try you CAN'T follow that kind of diet now. You have access to food that doesn't even come close to what he was looking at. I don't care if you are buying organic, grass fed beef. It is not lean, wild caught game that was low fat and high in omega 3's. It is HIGH in environmental contaminants no matter where you are because we have destroyed our planet. Meat (in moderation) might not be a bad thing, but meat nowadays absolutely is. Even animals tested in remote regions with virtually no human exposure have high levels of PCB's, dioxin and other illegal and toxic chemicals. For crying out loud, most women have high amounts in their breastmilk! I'm not willing to expose my family to that even if back in the day it was a healthful way to eat, especially since breastmilk tested in vegan women in the last decade was 90% lower in environmental toxins. The only thing we're missing is b-12, and I'm okay supplementing that.


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## Bia (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:

After MORE reading-lol-I found what I felt was great scientific data that noone was able to refute that made me believe that we really weren't meant to eat meat-dairy or any other animal products at all. One of the major factors was looking at our digestive tract and comparing it to a carnivores and an herbivores. It's NOTHING like that of a carnivore-not even close.
I feel bad contributing to the OT-ness, lol, but you might find this interesting, if you haven't seen it already.

"If we are going to be true dietary naturalists--eat "food of our biological adaptation" as the phrase goes--then it is paramount that we have a functional or testable way of defining what we are biologically adapted to. This is something that evolutionary science easily and straightforwardly defines: what is "natural" is simply what we are adapted to by evolution, and a central axiom of evolution is that what we are adapted to is the behavior our species engaged in over a long enough period of evolutionary time for it to have become selected for in the species' collective gene pool. This puts the question of natural behavior on a more squarely concrete basis. I wanted a better way to determine what natural behavior in terms of diet was for human beings that could be backed by science. This eliminates the dilemma of trying to determine what natural behavior is by resorting solely to subjective comparisons with other animals as Hygienists often do."

naturalism vs. evolution

ape diets


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I have and it's pretty interesting. I do believe (as I said) that once we probably did eat meat. I believe that most of our b-12 was from plant sources and insects. Then comes the whole evolution thing. If I can live as a conscious being-conscious of other life forms and their ability to suffer, and I have evolved to the point of being able to use alternative sources of protein for my nutrition, why wouldn't I? Especially considering the amount of contamination that is stored in the fats of these animals. To move forward, for me, means living in a different way than our ancestors did. It becomes, ultimately, a spiritual/ethical thing, though I tend not to really put it in that context. But this is pretty OT


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Ok, I'm probably overstaying my welcome here buuuuut...

I totally hear you Elisabeth, I can't really speak to the ethical argument, but the contamination issue is a concern of mine as well.

However, it's not really particular sources of protein that WAP found were essential, it was the *fat soluble vitamins which are only in animal foods.* Many people like to tag WAP/NT as being high protein, lots of meat etc, but his research did find many cultures eating very very little meat. Some inland Polynesians only fished once every 3 months.

And yes, he didn't set out to construct a healthy diet, but to test his first questions of why people in 1930's U.S. had such bad teeth (as he was a DDS), and then encompassed questios about physical and mental degeneration in humans as a reflection of diet. And again, it was an abundance of fat soluble vitamins in addition to the minerals in the diet which were key to perfect, uncrowded cavity free teeth, strong disease free bodies and, surprisingly, pleasant/hard-working dispositions.

It's not just b12, vegans are also low in the crucial vitamins A and D found only in animal sources. If you are not getting these vitamins, regardless of the mineral content of your diet, you won't absorb the minerals. The one common thing that Price found was these fat soluble nutrients and activators in various small amounts of certain animals food delivered fat soluble nutrients 10x more than the current American diet.

I'd also be concerned about myelin deficiency in a diet devoid of cholesterol, most especially for children because their liver is not fully online making the cholesterol the body and brain cells need (body produces about 20 times more cholesterol than even the highest fat diet).

Both crucial vitamins A & D can be obtained through safe, tested PCB/metal free, high vitamin cod liver oil. Wild salmon and roe (we order Vital Choice) are tested very low in metals and PCBs.

B12 in plant sources are analgogues and can be not as well absorbed by the body. Insects were the Hindus source to prevent anemia (result of b12 deficiency).
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...tarianism.html

And back to the toxin issue, personally, with all the reading I have done in the past several years, removing key nutrients seems not to be the answer because a well nourished body also naturally detoxifies on its own.

I think a judicious balance needs to be planned between clean food and food dense with nutrients. If I win the lottery, this is one study I'd fund!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisabeth*
Then comes the whole evolution thing. If I can live as a conscious being-conscious of other life forms and their ability to suffer, and I have evolved to the point of being able to use alternative sources of protein for my nutrition, why wouldn't I?

I appreciate your point of view Elisabeth and definitely agree with you on the toxins. But the problem is that we don't really get to decide what behavior is adaptive. Evolution takes place over millions of years and eating soy may or may not be an adaptive behavior. You really won't ever know because the evolutionary timeline is too long. Your ancestors may know, if they are the ones that engaged in the adaptive behavior.

ITA w Jane in the sense that we need nutrient-dense diets to deal with all of the toxins we are exposed to. I've been exposed to one of the end-alls of toxins -- uranium. A whole lot of it. The Price diet and MCHC Calicum (derived from calf bones, sorry but it worked) have reduced my levels when many doctors and the EPA said it would just stick around and give me bone cancer.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
It's not just b12, vegans are also low in the crucial vitamins A and D found only in animal sources.

Just to clarify, Vitamin D, a hormone produced in the skin and stored in fat, is made by sun exposure. Yes, cultures who are in limited sunlight , like the Norweigans, can get D from Fish ( the fat in fish actually). But many of us get plenty from being outside and living near the equator!














but I am hopping OT again!








I also answer when people ask me "so you don't eat animals??" I answer, similar to what you pointed out "only the bugs that are dead in my rice...."


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Not really true anymore about vitamin D for the rest of us not living in warn sunny paradise! I think in my area it's only like 2 weeks a year that the right uv wavelengths are active.

Another example of how we've trashed our earth.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...5883414B7F0000


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*
I also answer when people ask me "so you don't eat animals??" I answer, similar to what you pointed out "only the bugs that are dead in my rice...."









LOL. As a girl eating out of my mom's organic garden, we ate very little animal except the tiny snails that made it in on the salad greens. I found one occasionally and always wondered how many I did not find.


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## joy11 (Jul 31, 2005)

this is making my head hurt!








My only indulgence is Silk Chocolate Soy Milk and I have some in a morning smoothie, and usually some at night, too. That's twice a day every day and I'm nursing DS. Is this bad, or what?? I am veggie, and have been since I was a kid. Ain't no way I'm ever eating meat. But, I do have slight hypothyroidism and my skin is quite dry and in ayurvedic terms I'm quite "vata", so I wonder if my diet is the reason?

I cut out soy and dairy when DS was born for four-five mos. b/c he was intolerant. I tried to limit all other forms of soy while pregnant, but still drank soy milk. I occasionally eat tempeh. Hmmm...this is making me wonder. Maybe it's time to cut the soy out again. ugh!! It is one of the only things I drink besides water. I only drink smoothies and soy milk besides water all day. bummer! My DH is addicted to it too, now. I also buy almond and rice milk, but soy is much easier to use in recipes and such and has more nutrients added, etc. No B12 in rice milk, and I was concerned about that, since nursing.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm bad, I drink soy milk daily, no more than 2 glasses. I don't eat a ton of soy loaded products, but then...soy is in everything so it's hard to say (though I do avoid processed foods as much as possible). I think the jury is still out on weather or not it's dangerous, we need more long term studies to determine that. I'm also unsure of the claim that the protien reccomendations are made by the dairy people, and that we don't need as much as they say. I'm open to that possiblity, but I know that when I personally don't eat very much protien I don't feel well.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I think it's not a good idea to nurse and drink soy milk if your dc ever showed allergic symptoms to it, even if the child seems to have "grown out of it" -- if you read "Is This Your Child," she talks about how the allergic symptoms just become more subtle. And soy is highly allergenic. Ideally, highly allergenic foods (wheat, corn, soy, etc.) should only be consumed every four days (rotational diet) for those with sensitive systems. And soymilk is usually so processed, anyway, loaded with sugar and other artificial and refined ingredients, I can't imagine how anyone would consider it a "whole food."


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joy11*
No B12 in rice milk, and I was concerned about that, since nursing.

Rice Dream rice milk fortifies their rice milk with vitamin b12. A pp poster said that they don't filter out flouride from the water they use to make the rice milk so that's something to think about.

When I was pregnant with my ds, I was a strict vegan. I craved fried chicken, tuna fish, pizza and macaroni and cheese incessantly but because I was vegan, I didn't eat any of it believing and insisting that these things were not healthy. I instead had mock meat, mock fish, soy cheese, etc . . .and then I realized how ridiculous all this mock stuff was. I don't inherently think soy is evil but I do think it's been taken a bit too far. Now, I only eat fermented soy, sprouted soybeans in my Ezekiel break, and chocolate chips for baking has soy lecithin and an occasional soy yogurt. I really wish I could go back and eat less soy when I was pregnant. Free range chicken and mercury free salmon were what my body needed. I am grateful everyday that my little boy was born healthy and strong but I won't be taking that chance again.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

How in the world did you get mercury free salmon?


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## Joyful Mama (Jan 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
How in the world did you get mercury free salmon?

i was wondering the same thing.


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## primela (Mar 22, 2005)

Hello!

Let me first say, I am not against drinking cow's milk or soy milk. I personally drink soy milk (I use it on my cereal) and my son drinks soy, however we have offered cow's milk (organic) but he doesn't like the taste. He does eat organic dairy yogurt and dairy cheese (not soy).

I've been reading through this thread and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that dairy cows are often given a hormone BST or BGH - (it's given by injection to increase milk production...) But thankfully, the use of growth hormones is decreasing because consumers are speaking out against it. so if one is worried about drinking hormones and the early onset of puberty as a result, this is something to be aware of.

What I think is quite sad is most dairy cows are permitted to nurse their calves for 24 hours only and then the calf is taken away forever, so the cow can get on with the business of producing milk for human consumption (like a machine.) The cows are continually impregnanted (by artificial insemination), and they are forced to stand on concrete, which is quite cruel... But some dairies are more humane than others.

The illusion that all dairy cows live on quaint little farms, grazing on green grass is truly just that -- an illusion. (Fortunately, there are some smaller farms, but they have all but disappeared.)

For the record (in case anyone is keeping track) I've been vegetarian for 10 years and have read extensively on the subject. I would not, however, raise my child(ren) vegan. (This is just my personal view and I'm not saying it because I want to annoy vegans,







: I just want to share what I personally believe. Thank you for reading if you've made it this far!


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
How in the world did you get mercury free salmon?

LoL . . . sorry, low-mercury salmon. BTW, I never ate the salmon just hypothetically next time I'd get the salmon.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siana*
My head is starting to hurt from all the contrasting diets that all claim the same results







I'm desperate to learn more so I can come to my own conclusions, but the amount of information is outstanding, and I'm feeling very intimidated. At the same time, I want to just cut to the chase and find out what's best so I can make dietary changes ASAP! The only food-related decision that is set in stone for our family is to go organic. I really wish it were easier sometimes (though my DP and I accept responsibility for our lifestyle choices).

Anyway, I liked the term mama_nomad used: "Milk treat"
That's a great way of looking at it IMO.

I havent finished reading the thread yet but I wanted to respond to your post.
I firmly believe that there is NO best diet for everybody.
If you think about it, each ethnic group, or wherever your ancestors are from ate a diet of a core group of foods that is very different from every other group. So for every single person their inherited evolutionarily determined ideal diet is unique. This is the reason that different people have healing benefits etc on different diets.
ONe woman's periods stop and hair falls out on a vegetarian diet. Another is full of life and vitality on a vegan diet.
You might have to try several different diets thorughout your lifetime to find what works best for your body at any given time. And that can change as your needs change as well.

As for the Soy question. I also dont want to be part of the experiment. So I add no extra soy to our diets other than what is hidden in other things.(except soy sauce) But I do not read every label and keep all soy out of our diets.
I also have purchased and prepared soy items and soy meat replacement foods for my vegetarian, sometimes vegan daughter. (she doesnt really like them though.)
Joline


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

I go by my experience. Rice milk makes my blood sugar crash like a lead balloon. Soy milk helps me balance my blood sugar, so I am quite sure that I am able to digest at least some of the protein in it.

I had menarche at age 10. . . on a high-meat SAD. I always laugh when people tell me soy causes early puberty.

I was vegan for 12 yrs, added eggs in pg, but also used lots of nuts and soy. When dd was born, she reacted to nuts in my diet, but has never had a reaction to any soy in my or her diet. So though I've added nuts back at this time, I'm not going out of my way to purchase nut milks.

When I looked for articles on soy, I found more solid research that shows soy is beneficial than that showing it to be bad. Prevents breast and ovarian cancer and heart disease, for starters.

I find it hard to believe that the traditional Chinese diet used soy only fermented and as a condiment. I'm trying to remember back when I lived with Chinese people, all I remember is that they wouldn't touch brown rice, said it didn't taste right.

Anyway, I think there are racial differences in peoples' digestion. When someone told me that Asian people often lack the enzyme to break down alcohol from any plant other than rice, it explained so much. I'm half Chinese, and I can drink sake till the sun comes up and never get hungover, but it's best if I run away from all the other distilled liquors as fast as I can. The ILs, OTOH, are Celtic, and the only thing they CAN'T drink in abundance is sake. Who's to say that our digestion of other food types isn't just as variable.


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## lauriem33 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primela*
I've been reading through this thread and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that dairy cows are often given a hormone BST or BGH - (it's given by injection to increase milk production...) But thankfully, the use of growth hormones is decreasing because consumers are speaking out against it. so if one is worried about drinking hormones and the early onset of puberty as a result, this is something to be aware of.

What I think is quite sad is most dairy cows are permitted to nurse their calves for 24 hours only and then the calf is taken away forever, so the cow can get on with the business of producing milk for human consumption (like a machine.) The cows are continually impregnanted (by artificial insemination), and they are forced to stand on concrete, which is quite cruel... But some dairies are more humane than others.

The illusion that all dairy cows live on quaint little farms, grazing on green grass is truly just that -- an illusion. (Fortunately, there are some smaller farms, but they have all but disappeared.)


All excellent reasons to buy organic or better yet, raw dairy whenever possible from a local source. Or organic soy if you go that route.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

exactly. GMO scares me in soy, corn , whatever. I love organic soy milk mixed with coffee and only purchase organic non-gmo tempeh and tofu and soy milk.

As far as making tofu , and soy milk , someone asked...it is not that complicated or laboratory oriented! http://www.ellenskitchen.com/faqs/tofumilk.html here is a good site. I make my own almond milk when I can. It is easy and so fresh tasting!
Really no more complicated than the NT methods of making dairy products


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primela*

The illusion that all dairy cows live on quaint little farms, grazing on green grass is truly just that -- an illusion. (Fortunately, there are some smaller farms, but they have all but disappeared.)


That is exactly the kind of farm I get our family's pasture-fed raw milk from. It is no illusion, and more and more dairies like the one I go to are coming online as the demand for raw milk increases.

Check here, you might find one of those illusional dairies near you:

http://www.realmilk.com/where1.html


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## lauriem33 (Nov 9, 2005)

Good point uccomama, that is the kind of farm I get my raw milk, butter, grass fed meat, etc... from also. They really do exist! The realmilk website is a great place to start looking. I also recommend www.eatwild.com.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

*Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case for Vegetarianism?*

Quote:

The research of Dr. Weston A. Price, documented in his classic volume Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, demonstrated the absolute necessity of certain fatty animal foods for good health. However, a challenging argument against eating animal foods-especially animal fat-arises from vegetarian circles. This argument focuses on a class of chemicals called dioxins, and suggests that in the modern world, overburdened by pollutants, these fat-soluble chemicals accumulate specifically in the fatty tissue of animal products, making a vegetarian-even vegan-diet a necessity for those living in the modern world...

The assertion that dioxins accumulate specifically in animal products is simplistic and inaccurate, and in fact a diet rich in pastured animal products provides protective nutrients, especially vitamin A, that directly oppose the toxic actions of dioxins in animal experiments, while a diet rich in most plant fats provides compounds that enhance the actions of dioxin. The argument that we should avoid animal products because of their dioxin concentration is thus no less flawed than the argument that we should avoid animal products because they contain saturated fat and cholesterol.
http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html


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## mum2be (Jul 6, 2005)

So, after reading all of this...

What's better: soy milk or organic-local farm cow milk??

For some reason while I've been pregnant, I can't stomach soy milk. I used to buy the organic Eden Soy milk. Now I am getting cow milk from a local farm. They are pasture-fed. They have 50 cows who all have names. They even have a "cow of the month"! So I know they are being treated well. They have a very long life expectancy on this farm because they are not over stressed and are loved and cared for.
I'm not a big fan of rice milk or almond milk. I can use it in cereal, but for dunking cookies and what not, ick


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

the cows milk, esp if they are not pasturizing it, and you are getting it raw...

someone's signature on the forum totally changed my life (slight exaggeration







) and that is the quote:

"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)

that is how I feel about that, cow's milk comes from a cow into glass, no processing. i don't even know how they exactly make soy milk but I know it's a lot more complicated than that....


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum2be*
So, after reading all of this...

What's better: soy milk or organic-local farm cow milk??


Only you can decide.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

That's funny, because I would take that quote to mean human milk for humans, cow's milk for cows. I guess it depends on what you think nature intended. I personally don't think we were meant to drink any milk past weaning.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

The benefits of raw grass fed milk:
http://www.drrons.com/benefits-raw-milk.htm
http://www.drrons.com/raw-milk-veritas.htm

I recently finished his book, 'The Untold Story of Milk', and it was absolutely extraordinary. The reason why pasteurization started was because of the rise of the city population demanding more milk, and they started keeping cows where there was not enough pasture to support them... so they fed them fermented slop from distilleries, nice and cheap!

Well the cow's milk quality was horrible and they were constantly sick, mastitis. tuberculosis, etc. Therefore, the milk had to be heat treated to kill all the bacteria b/c it didn't have the natural protection and nutrition it was meant to have. Grass fed cows just don't get sick like that and ... just like breastmilk... the natural immune factors and probiotics in clean raw milk kills off bad bacteria so there is not as much of an issue with contamination.

We get our raw milk from quaint little farms in Western MA and Southern NH, they sure do exist!


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## primela (Mar 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauriem33*
They really do exist! The realmilk website is a great place to start looking. I also recommend www.eatwild.com.


I would recommend that website as well.









Just to clarify... in my post I did not say that such farms do not exist - they do. But the reality is -- as most of you probably know -- the vast majority of milk purchased is not from such farms. (*85-95%* of dairy cows are kept in factory-farms.) But of course this forum is visited by more enlightened/aware consumers!


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## melissa17s (Aug 3, 2004)

Oh... I was trying to avoid this thread because I have commented on so many of them before, but I found an interesting article http://www.organicvalley.coop/utilit.../soy_girl.html
Honestly, it was consistant with what I could find regarding soy in the past. I am totally comfortable eating it and do not see it as the "moster" food that the NTers make it out to be as long as it is organic. Yes organic is supposed to be non-gmo according to the fda guidelines.
I think those recommending raw milk should start a different thread about it opposed to getting it confused with soy because although it may have its benefits its is actually not clarifying whether or not soy is "bad".


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)

that is how I feel about that, cow's milk comes from a cow into glass, no processing. i don't even know how they exactly make soy milk but I know it's a lot more complicated than that....

It really isn't so very complicated.

soak beans
drain
grind
add water again and boil
remove from heat immediately
drain
the liquid is basic soymilk

Of course, when you buy it packaged, it has other ingredients added. No, it does not occur in nature, but then again neither does the phenomenon of an adult animal drinking the milk of another animal.

Thanks for the link melissa17s. When I did the research, that was pretty much what I found. I've been hearing so much antisoy hype lately, I've been wondering if I'm crazy or something. I'm glad to hear it from a ND.


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery*
That's funny, because I would take that quote to mean human milk for humans, cow's milk for cows. I guess it depends on what you think nature intended. I personally don't think we were meant to drink any milk past weaning.









That's exactly how I feel. I'm having a really hard time thinking/believing otherwise.

Since the start of the raw cows milk discussion in this thread, I've been thnking, "if I want to give my family raw milk, it'll have to be from me!"


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

I usually go with my gut when it comes to nutrition - and as a general rule I do not trust soy milk or soy-pretend-meat. Something about it is not right. Nor do we drink a ton of cow's milk, it just goes on cereal and in recipes around here. We do have cheese and yogurt though.

We generally avoid trans fats and HFCS. We still buy pre-processed foods because we're not made of time and money, but I try to make sure they contain *real* sugar and *real* fat. We don't do excess fat (deep fried everything) but don't avoid fat as such. We do eat a lot of different fats like coconut, cocoa, nut fats, meat fats, and whatever's in avocado.

Mostly I eat what sounds good - We have been on a big fresh fruit kick lately, and eat a lot of asian and italian type things - last night for example, dinner was Thai sweet curried chicken with pineapple, carrots, and onions, over rice noodles and we also had spiced oven fries (the fries were Dh's idea). Other nights it will be lasagna with salad, or pan-seared chicken with avocado-lime salsa and mexican rice.

So I use soy where I think it belongs - in soy sauce, and occasionally tofu. It's definitely not something I'd base a diet around. Not that my diet is perfect, but excess soy gives me the heeby jeebies.


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## mamaGjr (Jul 30, 2004)

here is another article
http://www.mercola.com/2004/jan/21/soy.htm

we do limit soy consumption somewhat but we also do not do any cow's milk.
sometimes we eat cottage cheese and vegetarian cheese as well as rice milk on cereal and in recipes. I am kinda on the fence when it comes to soy.


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

I don't know, I found the articles at the mercola site to be misleading and contradictory. Soy is bad because it makes rats gain weight. It's bad because it makes Japanese people short (though they only use it fermented there, in small amounts, and with meat, which makes it better, unlike the bad way we use it here, where people are taller . . .). It's bad because it mimics estrogen. It's bad because it blocks estrogen. It's bad because the government subsidizes it. It's bad because it costs twice as much as cows milk in Canada. It's bad because lots of it is GM and not organic (unlike every other food on the market?). It's bad because agribusiness spends big bucks promoting it (they're moving into water now, should we stop drinking water?)

It looks like everyone has their mind made up, and they will use the available data to support whatever position they already hold. I suppose I can't claim to be above that. I'm pro-soy.


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## primela (Mar 22, 2005)

What about the taste? (and smell) of soy? I think it simply tastes better. But I'm sure there are plenty of people (probably the majority) who think cow's milk tastes better (but there are people who have not ever tried soy milk, and are really not in a position to offer an opinion.) I think what turns me off to cow's milk is the smell when it goes bad. WOW!







The only time I would ever drink cow's milk is if it is ICE cold and served with chocolate cake.
Warm soy milk doesn't bother me that much (though I prefer it cold), but warm cow's milk... gag.
Soy milk just appeals more to my taste buds -- not that I drink it all that often, mainly with cereal.

So it's also a matter of taste - and there's no accounting for that!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primela*
What about the taste? (and smell) of soy? I think it simply tastes better. But I'm sure there are plenty of people (probably the majority) who think cow's milk tastes better (but there are people who have not ever tried soy milk, and are really not in a position to offer an opinion.) I think what turns me off to cow's milk is the smell when it goes bad. WOW!







The only time I would ever drink cow's milk is if it is ICE cold and served with chocolate cake.
Warm soy milk doesn't bother me that much (though I prefer it cold), but warm cow's milk... gag.
Soy milk just appeals more to my taste buds -- not that I drink it all that often, mainly with cereal.

So it's also a matter of taste - and there's no accounting for that!









Well each to their own. But I think soy milk sucks in comparison to whole raw pasture-fed cows milk, especially if you don't shake it and its mostly cream!


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

One way I like soy is in coffee. I don't do dairy, but I think the flavor and texture of soy really complement coffee. By comparison, rice milk just doesn't hold up.


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## Spring Sun (Jul 30, 2005)

Ooh, I love soy milk in coffee....and hot cocoa...going to make some now


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## mamaGjr (Jul 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *richella*
One way I like soy is in coffee. I don't do dairy, but I think the flavor and texture of soy really complement coffee. By comparison, rice milk just doesn't hold up.

yes.
i work in a retail store where so many customers tell me that they need soy milk or soy creamer for their coffee, and rice milk just does not cut it!

i don't really know as I take my coffee dark , just like my men as the in laws like to put it







OH MY


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## mamaGjr (Jul 30, 2004)

BTW would you rather your kids eat soy "sausage" or real sausage?

we do both around here ..i am an old vegan turned non veggie as i eat some fish on occasion (it is still hard for me) and I now eat some dairy. My ds has been raised with both parents involved in cooking etc as we both work and don't use day care .

my ds loves ALL meat and the alternatives (when i am cooking.) mostly i hope to make him aware of the non meat eating culture...we eat lots of beans and rice and he loves tofu! sometimes he even asks for it . i think it is better for him to eat a smart dog than a koshers best hot dog (gross) but i have given up on being a control freak ...i think ds is getting exposed to different ways at an early age
this is good , eh?


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

Besides the health reasons to reduce our soy consumption in this household, we were very concerned about the waste produced by drinking commercial soy milk. I realize in many cities the tetra-paks are recycled (that takes considerable resources), in ours they get dumped in the landfill.

Talking about waste, the production of cows milk is a very inefficient process. Cows have to consume a tremendous amount to provide a small amount of milk in return (dung disposal is very mismanaged too). Raw cows milk may be a wonderful health food, but when you consider the state of affairs on the production as a whole, I just don't think the environmental issues justify using it. But hey, everyone doesn't have the same priorities as me, but I though I'd throw this other viewpoint out there.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

FWIW I would NEVER give my kids sausage OR the soy alternative. My view is that I don't eat meat...real or fake. Ever since I have been vegan the only "fake" stuff I do is occasionally soy cheese if the kiddos are craving a pizza-and evcn then we usually do a cheese free one(like pesto and carmelized onions or something.) I use almond milk, which I don't consider to be a fake milk because we don't ever drink it. I just use it to bake. We eat yummy and varied diets without the fake stuff. ITA about the fact that milk production is very wasteful. The whole process really skeeves me out...for alot of reasons, mostly health related. The problem, admittedly may not be *as* bad at a little local farm, but as a whole it's pretty bad. But, we all have our own perspectives. That's why I love you ladies! Oh, and I have a question for JaneS. I read something in one of your posts that I was curious about so I'm starting a new thread. Just giving you a head's up if you're still paying attention to this one!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaGjr*
BTW would you rather your kids eat soy "sausage" or real sausage?


Well... there is sausage and there is sausage. In the same way there is milk and there is milk. Whole, raw pasteur-fed certified cows milk is not the same thing as the milk you buy in the supermarket. I certainly wouldn't give my children tofupups, nor would I give them processed sausages, heaven knows what's in them, I don't want to begin to think about it. If they would eat them, I would give them European style traditional, or homemade sausages, but they wouldn't.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

Siana said: "...the tetra-paks ....<snipped> get dumped in the landfill."

I just wanted to point out that Silk soy milk, Trader Joe's housebrand soy milk and a few other chain grocery stores' own brands of soy milk are being sold in regular milk cartons in their dairy cases.


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## counterGOPI (Jan 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy*
There are a lot of people here who follow the Nourishing Traditions diet. Some of the big time NT leaders are rabidly anti-soy and many other anti-soy organizations can be traced back to dairy and cattle industries.

I'm not one of them. I'm vegan and I eat soy and will feed it to my children as long as they are not allergic. There are some nutritional points that are true about soy, such as what forms you eat it in. But most of the anti-soy articles talk a lot without much non-related research to back it up.

Here are some articles by vegans/vegetarians that are not PRO-soy but try to be more balanced.

http://www.vegfamily.com/health/vega...nformation.htm

http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

You so rock. I LOVE you for posting here







hee,hee I'm not so good with words when it comes to the anti-soy ppl.








<3,
nicole


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