# Grandparents Rights



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I would like to hear from both sides of this issue. I cannot understand how or why a grandparent would be able to sue for visitation or custody. A child has two parents, and I don't think anyone else has an innate right to that child. I'm not talking about a situation where a parent is abusive, is taken away, and a grandparent gets preference or whatever. When a child needs a home, a member of the child's family is considered ideal when it comes to custody.

In the situations I've heard about, there is usually a single parent and the child's other parents' parent sues for some kind of custody or visitation.

Discuss.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Hello,
My DH and I finally won our case for grandparent visitation (gpv) on Wed. of this past week. It was a 2 year battle and cost us over 100k.

We are married, have been for 12 years. We have 3 children and after a lifetime of control, physical and emotional abuse for me and it all spilling over into my married life my husband and I decided to sever ties with my parents. They decided to sue us for visitation of our children. It has been a hellish nightmare. We were in and out of court about 11 times, we were subjected to mediation, evaulations, and court ordered visits with them...but thankfully it is all over now and they can never bother us again.

Many of the cases out there do involve a divorce situation or a situation in which one of the parents has died. In our case we are an "intact" family united in our decision to deny any further contact with these toxic people and our decision was still not respected by the court...it took a very costly and emtional battle to win our right to make parenting decisions.

I think these laws need to be seriously looked at and rewritten to better protect parents and their children from these types of lawsuits. More parents need to be educated on this topic. I have found so many people in disbelief when I share our story with them....but it can, and does happen.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

That's just unbelievable to me. I'm so sorry for what your family went through. I'm trying to find some kind of reason in these cases, and I haven't seen a single one where I thought there was any merit at all. It seems to me like it's just a knock at parents' rights to raise their children in the way they best see fit.


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## Jetka (May 11, 2006)

When I was a baby my father left my mom. He was granted only one day a week supervised visitation - he was abusive. So he had his parents file for visitation with me - my mom knew what he was doing and they had to have supervised visitation two and if he showed up there while I was there - all of them lost visitation with me. It was horrible.

It's actually something I'm a bit afraid of because we don't have much contact with my IL's and I always tell them no to seeing my son - long story on why.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

My mother threatened to sue us for grandparents' rights. Fortunately, in this state, the law protects intact families.

And, at times when I think about divorcing dh, I think that M would then have a leg to stand on in court, and it always makes me want to work through whatever problem dh and I are experiencing.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Wow! I can't imagine how much it would suck if my MIL demanded grandparent rights!!









I am sorry you guys went/are going through this


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

My mom and step-dad filed against DH and I for our DD. We fought and fought and fought in court. We finally got her back and my mother has not seen my daughter aside from the occasional picture that I send to MY grandmother. We were subjected to parenting classes, social worker in home visits, supervised visitation, etc. It was horrible. I too try very hard to work through any problem DH and I might have for the legitimate fear that my mother would try again if she ever heard of us splitting. I never told my family I was pregnant with Lasius for fear that my mom would try and take him. I didn't even tell my mom until 2 weeks after Lasius died that I had him. I was so terrified she would view that as her opportunity to try and take DD-- when we were at our weakest emotionally.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

I don't get the whole grandparents rights thing, why should they have more rights, than say, an uncle or aunt? After all you share more genetic material with a sibling than with either parent, and your siblings often have as much a part of forming who you are as your parents do.
(not that I am advocating for aunt and uncle rights, just wondering where one would draw the line)


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

I definitely think grandparents should have the right to sue for visitation unless they are known to be abusive or some such thing. I think it's very important for kids to have grandparents. They offer so much. I don't think that we respect the elderly and their experience enough in this country. Youth is king.

Even if the parents have issues with their parents, I don't necessarily think that should mean that the kids lose out on their grandparents. Grandparents are another source of unconditional love. Kids shouldn't be denied that.

I know of a family where the husband does not like his wife's parents because they objected to his marrying her 15+ years ago. Because of this, he has not let her parents see their kids. The wife would like to, but the husband says no. She's not strong enough to stand up to him on this point. I think that's wrong.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
I definitely think grandparents should have the right to sue for visitation unless they are known to be abusive or some such thing.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to prove that someone abused you 20 years ago?


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

These stories are awful, and this subject is often in my mind because of my IL's. I wouldn't put it past them to file.

Yes, there are grandparents who should see their grandchildren, they would be a positive influence in their lives, but there are many who would not. As parents it is our job to protect our children, and that is what I am doing, it is not the courts job to tell them that just because someone doesn't have a record doesn't mean that they are a positive influence on my child.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Umsami I can see what you are saying. And I can thankfully say that my children have this in my dad. he is that kind of unconditional love grandpa that every child should be so lucky to have. My MIL is as well. Although MIL is a little "stricter" than I would prefer her to be with the kids, not so much that I interfere though.

But because they are loving, caring grandparents that I can clearly see are a benefit to my children to have in their lives, there is never a chance I would deny contact. Prime in our relationship with the grandparents is that they respect my DP and I as parents. If grandma is baby sitting, she may say she doesn't agree that our 3.5 year old sleeps with us. But she will shrug and say "Well you are his parents, so you can deal with it later." and she will lay down with him in our bed and read him stories until he falls asleep. Like we want her to do.

My fear when it comes to a courts involvement with taking away a parents choice and giving authority over to non-parents is that the courts are setting the stage. They are beginning a forced relationship in which they have already clearly said that they parents choices do not matter, and that alone is very damaging. Add to that another person whom cannot be meeting the parents ideals, or they would be involved already and you have a recipe for disaster.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
Even if the parents have issues with their parents, I don't necessarily think that should mean that the kids lose out on their grandparents. Grandparents are another source of unconditional love. Kids shouldn't be denied that.









:







: It is glad that you have that but you haven't met my mother. My mil offers the unconditional love. My mother and father both get suppervised visits only.

My mother wanted to take only 2 kids to Disney World. This meant leaving a 5 year old behind. My mother said she wouldn't know or remember it wouldn't effect her one bit. My mother refuses to sleep with her grandkids. She would make them a mat on the floor but lets her dogs sleep with her. My mom doesn't think if she has them for a week or two she should allow them to call home or us call them (can't deal with them being upset). My mother cannot shut up about how we are messing them up by homeschooling them. I don't trust her not to quiz and critize them for not knowing something. My mother cannot get off the Ti should know she can have plastic surgery to fix her ears bulls shit (My dd has a birth defect). I cannot get it through her think skull Ti is ok with her body. When she is old enough she can decide to alter her body by herself. She isn't dumb, she loves medical shows, she knows about plastic surgery, she just doesn't KNOW her ears NEED to be fixed and I am not about to have my mom teach her that. There is a lot of conditions to her love.

My dad does give more of the unconditional love but at the same time he does stupid stuff like allow 6 year olds to hold roman candles and get burns.

Some times the abuse isn't physical but emotional something hard to prove. Many older people laugh at this story. I was allowing my mom unsupervised visits with my son. I was pregnant with my second child. I cannot remember what or why I had to be out late but I couldn't pick up my son until 10 pm. She had to be up early so he couldn't stay the night (and I was leary because he would have had to sleep on the floor, plus we had never been appart for overnight). When I came and picked him up he was sitting on a step ladder (simular to this http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/2-in...-ladder-chair). He had a bucket between his legs. I can't remember why my son was sent there but he got the bucket because his tired, up way past bedtime, three year old self couldn't stop crying. They handed him a bucket and told him to cry a buck. My mom and her husband laughed at him he obediantly sat there for over half an hour crying a bucket.







You don't know how many people think that story is just a laugh. My son was emotionally hurt by that. He at 13 only wants to visit an hour or two. He remembers feeling alone. His willingness to go over there was imidately changed. I cannot prove nothing else happen that night there were no marks on my son except tear stains on his face but the servere behavior change and complete resistance from him to visit after that night will always make me wonder. He gets very protective of his sisters and cousins around them. There have been other people that have notice when he is around my mom he seems on gaurd.

I think the other cases of parents being selfish are few and far. There is more to the story than you understand. That man could very well not trust those parents not to belittle him in front of his children. May this story remind us about respecting our children's decissions, dates, and choosen partners. In that case it sounds like because he wasn't respected he isn't giving any and you don't know if they haven't ever given any. Many adult children will ignore repeated disrespect from their parents to their mate.


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## Leta (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't think anbody has any rights to another person's child. While that may heartbreaking for some people, I don't see how we could establish a legal precident on any other principle.

My cousin has a daughter one week younger than my DD. Her mom, Aunt T, kissed her DGD with an old cold sore on her mouth. The whole thing spiraled out of control, and now my cousin doesn't let her mom see the baby, and they haven't spoken in months. It's sad. Aunt T is considering going to court, but I think that's the wrong thing to do. If she wants a relationship with her DGD, it's silly to think that she can do that without mending fences with her DD.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra* 
That's just unbelievable to me. I'm so sorry for what your family went through. I'm trying to find some kind of reason in these cases, and I haven't seen a single one where I thought there was any merit at all. It seems to me like it's just a knock at parents' rights to raise their children in the way they best see fit.

It is a total knock on parent's rights. It is all supposed to be about the "best interest of the child". I have a very difficult time in seeing any of this being about the best interest. It is all about controlling ruthless grandparents.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
I definitely think grandparents should have the right to sue for visitation unless they are known to be abusive or some such thing. I think it's very important for kids to have grandparents. They offer so much. I don't think that we respect the elderly and their experience enough in this country. Youth is king.

Even if the parents have issues with their parents, I don't necessarily think that should mean that the kids lose out on their grandparents. Grandparents are another source of unconditional love. Kids shouldn't be denied that.

I know of a family where the husband does not like his wife's parents because they objected to his marrying her 15+ years ago. Because of this, he has not let her parents see their kids. The wife would like to, but the husband says no. She's not strong enough to stand up to him on this point. I think that's wrong.

My parents were abusive towards me as a child and teen in their home. When it came to discussing this in court my testimony was banned. It is impossible to prove this in a court of law.

I respect the elderly and my children are very involved with my husbands parents. This has nothing to do with respect of the elderly, it has to do with protecting a parents Constitutional and fundamental right to raise their children as they see fit.

Until you have lived with the constant threat of someone making decisions about where your children spend their time this matter is really difficult to understand. I can understand how you would be sympathetic towards the grandparents, buth they are not all the sweet cooking baking gp's that you want to believe them to be, and it costs a family so much in emotional and financial damages to finally prove otherwise.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

The *only* way I agree with Grandparents rights are in the case where the children were going to be taken away to foster care or something. I consider that to be a better alternative to strangers (if it is a healthy household for the children).

Other than that, absolutely no way. I had one of my ex's threaten this on me when I was pg as a teen. That I would be unfit b/c of age, and they had a leg to stand on here in IL as far as GP rights go, I believe, at least then. Not that I was unfit, but that they are willing to hand them over to GPs for just about any reason.

Nobody but the parents should have "rights" to a child. I can only imagine if my own mother wanted any sort of visitation/custody...


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## cravenab00 (May 25, 2005)

i dont think grandparent should have the ability to sue for visitation or custody, or "rights"
UNLESS.....
like a pp mentioned, if kids were in foster care, and parents werent allowed contacnt, and it would be in the child's best interst to stay with family instead of strangers.
OR
if both parents were deceased, and there was no will to determine where the children would go.

I see SO many problems in families due to "generational conflict" grandparents thinking, "this is how i raised my kids, so you should do it too" or "advice" that turns into "you're a bad parent if you dont do this"
i've seen it turn ugly and violent and tear families apart.

the grandparents had their shot at raising kids, and they are done now, they have to let their kids do the raising now whether they like it or not.


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

The only time I would think about any type of rights would be in pretty extreme situations, but I don't think it has to be labled "grandparent's rights" because I think it could apply to any caring adult. I have a friend who went through a messy divorce when she was 10 (well her parents divorced, not her







). Dad was totally out of the picture (but paid his child support), but the father's parents (who had been her caregivers after school for years while mom worked) were always wonderful, loving grandparents. Mom decided to deny grandparents the right to see their DGD and my friend suffered for it. (the father wasn't even in the same state at the time, so it wasn't an issue of the father being in w/ the grandparents). Anyway in an extreme case like that I would support the grandparents rights to their DGC. I would hate to think that if G/d forbid something ever happened to me my dh or his family could deny my kids *my* family without cause.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

My own two cents is that some grandparents confuse _rights_ with _privileges_. It is a privilege for both the child and the grandparent to have a functional relationship with each other. I don't believe that grandparents should have the right to force a relationship.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hubris* 
My own two cents is that some grandparents confuse _rights_ with _privileges_. It is a privilege for both the child and the grandparent to have a functional relationship with each other. I don't believe that grandparents should have the right to force a relationship.

I totally agree. Most of the litigating grandparents that I have been made aware of through my own personal battle have a tremendous sense of entitlement. They really believe that it is their "God given right to see these kids". They refuse to accept any responsiblity for their behavior, and are very quick to cast blame on the parents. It is all about control...very toxic behavior.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hubris* 
My own two cents is that some grandparents confuse _rights_ with _privileges_. It is a privilege for both the child and the grandparent to have a functional relationship with each other. I don't believe that grandparents should have the right to force a relationship.

So true! Even if the child's parents are being extremely difficult -- well, some people are like this, and some of them are parents. If there's a child in my family that I want to retain contact with -- I'm sure as heck going to do everything I can to have a good relationship with the parents, even if they happen to be difficult.

About the grandparents who aren't allowed to see their grandkids because they initially disapproved of their daughter's choice of a husband -- have they made any effort to talk with him and befriend him since that time? If they have, and he's just a totally unforgiving jerk -- well, that's too bad and I realize some people have a hard time forgiving.

I just think most grandparents can find a way to make amends and get along with their children (or children-in-law) if they're willing.

But it's also possible that what the pp said is true: maybe he fears that they're the type to criticize him to his children. I know in my own case, my mom is very critical of me, and for that and other reasons we don't send our kids on their own for visits. Mom would like to have some one-on-one time with our oldest -- but she still only gets to see our children with dh or me being there.

Sometimes I wonder if she'd have legal grounds to demand visitation with just our children, without us being there. I hope not. We usually spend a few hours with her, about twice a month, and I'm just hoping this keeps her satisfied.

I feel sad that Mom refuses to be a trustworthy person; when our oldest was 4, she'd started spending some one-on-one time with my mom but was coming back asking dh and me, "Will I ever get to go to public school?"

Mom, knowing our homeschooling plans, had been initiating talks with dd about all the fun she'd be missing if we didn't let her go to kindergarten.







: She agreed to quit doing it when confronted by me, but then did it again the next chance she got (and admitted to doing it, without remorse -- and tried to start a debate with me about my competency).

I honestly think most grandparents can find a way to work things out with their children. I actually think the problem is most lack respect for their children, and have a hard time eating humble pie. Mom would rather give gifts than just say, "I'm sorry, I really over-stepped my bounds and it won't happen again."

If she could actually express remorse and demonstrate understanding of how her manipulations are harmful to my children and our family, dh and I would start feeling we were on the road to building a trusting relationship. I'd love for a full restoration to happen with my mom, but it can't all just happen on one side, ya know?

And while I fully realize a few people are jerks who would withhold their children just to cause everyone pain -- I think in the vast majority of cases where parents break off relationships (even with ex-in-laws), it's because of their concern that the grandparents will do things to emotionally harm the children, or possibly harm the relationship between parents and children.

Most parents aren't eager to break off relationships that are beneficial to themselves and their kids. Most parents really don't want to go it alone.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I am so thankful that my state has no grandparent's right's laws. Personally, I think that any grandparent's right's laws should not exist. It is, and always should be, up to the parents to decide which family members they want their child to see. For me, it's black and white-except when the children are to be put in foster care, in that case, they should always look to see if their are any suitable family members to care for the children.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't think there is a clearcut black and white area on this.

What about if, in a divorced family, something happens to, say, the Father so that he's not around. (I don't meant jail or anything like that, I mean dead.) What about if, with the Father gone, the Mother decides that she doesn't want her child to have anything to do with the Father's side of the family, not because of abuse or anything, just because she doesn't want the child to have contact with that side of tha family? What if, the child has seen this Grandparent almost every time the Father had visitation, so that the child and Grandparent have a close relationship? Do you still think it would be fair to refuse to let the child and Grandparent continue to have contact, continue to see eachother? Because that is exactly what would happen if my Hubby were to die- she would lose all contact with her Father's side of the family not because anyone is abusive or anything, but simply because her Mother wants to forget she ever married my Husband.

And on the other side, what if a Father was abusive to the child's Mother and actually attempted to strangle her in front of the child? What if the Father ended up getting supervised visitation and losing supervised visitation two or three times because of abusing the child? What if the Father had his Mother file for Grandparents righs, which she got, and then, she's invite the Father over to her house during visitation time until they were brought back to court and lost the Grandparents Right's visitation, because the child was being abused again? That was what happened to my niece.

There is no easy answer for Grandparent's Rights. It could be a win-win or a lose-lose situation either way.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
What if, the child has seen this Grandparent almost every time the Father had visitation, so that the child and Grandparent have a close relationship? Do you still think it would be fair to refuse to let the child and Grandparent continue to have contact, continue to see eachother? Because that is exactly what would happen if my Hubby were to die- she would lose all contact with her Father's side of the family not because anyone is abusive or anything, but simply because her Mother wants to forget she ever married my Husband.

You're saying that your child has a good relationship with her paternal grandparents, and they're good people who don't criticize you to your dd or do things to undermine your relationship with your dd -- but you'd cut off all contact because of your desire to forget the marriage?







:

I can't fathom this. To me, my children are living, breathing evidence of my marriage to dh. He'll always be a part of me. I can't imagine hurting my kids, or my in-laws, in such a self-centered fashion, in some misguided effort to purge my beloved husband from my memory. Who thinks like this?

You're really saying these kind and wonderful people would have to take you to court to see their grandchild?

I'm hoping I misunderstood you.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
I am so thankful that my state has no grandparent's right's laws. Personally, I think that any grandparent's right's laws should not exist. It is, and always should be, up to the parents to decide which family members they want their child to see. For me, it's black and white-except when the children are to be put in foster care, in that case, they should always look to see if their are any suitable family members to care for the children.

What state are you in? Every state has GPV laws, I would research what they are for your state. The only really safe state to live in is Florida, all others you could fall victim. A good place to begin research on the laws is www.parentsrights.org.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I actually have always had the paranoia/ worry that, once I am a grandparent, I will lose access to my grandchildren after a contentious divorce. I guess the likelihood of losing all contact is pretty slim. But the thought of it is crushing.

But I guess if it happens, it is in fate's hands. I would never sue unless I were convinced the children were being abused or neglected.

My parents have a history of extreme toxicity (they have tried very had to change though, and they are somewhat better now) but I can totally understand wanting to sever contact with grandparents if they are toxic.

I think it's becoming increasingly rare for 100% sole legal custody to be granted these days-- usually it happens only if one parent is abusive/ negligent/ uses drugs etc.. So I think the total loss of grandchildren due to a child's divorce will be a rarer and rarer thing once we are old grannies.


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
There is no easy answer for Grandparent's Rights. It could be a win-win or a lose-lose situation either way.

IMHO GPV is ALWAYS a lose lose situation. Even if the GP's win visitation it will be forced by the state and not with the wishes of the parents. The court can not order a relationship, for GP's winning visitation it is a very hollow victory. It is a very sad situation that really has no business in family court. The problems should be addressed with a therapist/counselor...we tried this approach and it was a failure. My DH and I wanted to be in control of the visits, the who, what, where, why and when (as it should be since we are the parents of these children)...they would not allow this thus we ended up back in court.


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## ulla (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
You're saying that your child has a good relationship with her paternal grandparents, and they're good people who don't criticize you to your dd or do things to undermine your relationship with your dd -- but you'd cut off all contact because of your desire to forget the marriage?







:

I'm hoping I misunderstood you.

Yes, you did, completely. She's talking about her stepdaughter, the one mentioned in her sig.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Ps, I wanted to add that, I was pretty much raised by my grandmother. My family growing up was intact but both of my parents were workaholics so they shipped my grandma into the country to function as an unpaid nanny. Lucky for me, though-- she was my only real emotional connection in childhood and once she died I felt like an orphan. She humanized me and taught me to love.

I think grandparents CAN be invaluable to children, but there are so many toxic people out there... but the bond between grandchild and grandparent can be magical. Even my mom, who was so horribly toxic when I was young, has a magical bond with my son. It's the only time in my life I've seen her show and feel genuine love.

So... I guess what I'm trying to say is that the rights/ access should be severed only in cases of emotional or physical abuse. Not just "they rub me the wrong way" or something.

I have also read heartbreaking stories of grandparents losing access to their grandkids after 9-11. Most of the stories I have read did not involve abusive grandparents. Usually there had been bad blood between the deceased child and the ex/current spouse at the time of the death, and the widow/ widower just wanted to cut all ties.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
Even if the parents have issues with their parents, I don't necessarily think that should mean that the kids lose out on their grandparents. Grandparents are another source of unconditional love. Kids shouldn't be denied that.


Your logic is







:

The 'elderly' are not owed respect or visitation by virtue of being old. We respect the nuclear family unit in this country, and no-one has the right to interfere with that outside of the state in cases of abuse.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2-3* 
What state are you in? Every state has GPV laws, I would research what they are for your state. The only really safe state to live in is Florida, all others you could fall victim. A good place to begin research on the laws is www.parentsrights.org.

In my state, they were declared unconstitutional in 2005. I dug up an old article for reference http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...parents08.html


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## sewingmommy (Apr 21, 2007)

My mother who is bipolar always told me how she should have rights to her grandkids and they should have to visit her for extended periods of time because it was good for them to bond with her ....and I so disagreed with this ...because of her bipolar my dh and I decided after we were married to severe all ties because I just could not and would not put my kids through the emotional hell that I went through as a child and I was a little worried about her suing for Grandparents rights but so far she has shown no interest in either of my two sons .....


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
You're saying that your child has a good relationship with her paternal grandparents, and they're good people who don't criticize you to your dd or do things to undermine your relationship with your dd -- but you'd cut off all contact because of your desire to forget the marriage?







:

I can't fathom this. To me, my children are living, breathing evidence of my marriage to dh. He'll always be a part of me. I can't imagine hurting my kids, or my in-laws, in such a self-centered fashion, in some misguided effort to purge my beloved husband from my memory. Who thinks like this?

You're really saying these kind and wonderful people would have to take you to court to see their grandchild?

I'm hoping I misunderstood you.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ulla* 
Yes, you did, completely. She's talking about her stepdaughter, the one mentioned in her sig.

Mammal_mama, you sure did misunderstand me!!!!! My Hubby had a scare a couple years ago where he thought he was gonna die. His Exwife informed him that if he had, his daughter would have no contact with anyone from his side of the family. We are a very close knit family- *EVERY* visitation involves Daddy, Stepmom, brother and usually, Grampa. If, God forbid, anything ever happened to my Hubby, my stepdaughter would lose this whole half of her family. As a Stepmother, I'd have no "rights" over seeing her and neither would my son because even though they are as close as any sister and brother, they are only stepsiblings and don't count in the law. I would be praying that my Father-in-Law had some kind of "rights" to see my stepdaughter.

Also, several people mentioned Grandparents with visitation for long periods of time? I don't think that would be nessesary. Why not a day or an afternoon or something? Do courts really give Grandparents a week or Christmas Day over a parent? That seems *WAY* over the top!


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## KCMommy (Jun 24, 2006)

My boss had a daughter and two grandchildren. She was very emotionally close to them, living on the same street for years and then in a neighbouring town, more recently. Last year, the daughter and grandchildren were in a tragic car accident that killed the daughter and one of the grandchildren.

The husband subsequently refused to allow my boss any access to her one surviving grandchild. After a lengthly court battle, she was granted 52 days of custody per year (mostly on weekends). In this case, I think it was a good ruling. Especially considering the father is works in an industry that requires 100 plus hours a week and has an unstable lifestyle. The child is pretty much being raised by a nanny, and deserves to retain that bond that she had already established with her grandmother.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Wow, I guess I'm in the minority who thinks they're good (and wishes they were stronger). I have to admit, it's only because of my personal situation, though. I can definitely see how they could be very bad for some families.

I'm a single mom and have always raised my boys near my parents, who are wonderful, doting grandparents. The boys love them and see them several times a week. If I were to die, I would absolutely want my parents to have custody (jointly with DP, if we're talking years from now). The boys' bio-dads have never been involved with them and currently live out of state. They are strangers and have no bond with my kids at all. It's my worst fear that, if I were gone, the boys would be split up and sent to live with people they don't know.
My mom and I have talked about it & I've had conversations with DP. My social security benefits for surviving children would be enough to support the boys, to a good extent. My mom is the beneficiary on my life insurance policy and has agreed to spend every last dime, if needed, to get legal custody of the boys.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ulla* 
Yes, you did, completely. She's talking about her stepdaughter, the one mentioned in her sig.

Oh. I'm sorry, harleyhalfmoon! How sad that your husband's ex-wife would treat such kind people in such a bad way! I realize there are these insensitive people out there, who would even disregard the feelings of their own children. I just think they're few and far between. And I'm sorry you have such a person to deal with.









My mom's first marriage was a bad one when she was really young, and when her husband abandoned her with my infant sister in the 1940's, my mom truly did decide to sever all ties; she saw no reason to keep in touch with her ex's family, even though she harbored no hard feelings toward them.

I still believe that if they'd done more than say, "Keep in touch," (basically putting the whole ball in my mom's court), they could have had a relationship with my sister. Which I think my sister would have liked, but it just didn't occur to my young mom at that time. My mom's first husband abandoned my mom and sister and never gave any financial support, and his parents never made any effort to help her out, either.

I'm not saying support is the grandparents' responsibility -- but if my child abandoned his/her spouse and children, you can bet I'd be doing everything I could to help and to alleviate the load of the single parent who's raising my grandchildren. I'd say, "I'm sorry my child is being such a self-centered jerk -- but I really love you and my grandkids; I want to be here for you" -- and I'd be doing concrete things to SHOW that I was there for them.

Rather than telling a young single mom, who gets everywhere by walking or taking a bus because she can't drive and doesn't have a car, to "Drop by and see us" -- I'd be calling and offering to pick her and the kids up for Sunday dinner (and not allow my dead-beat child to come around). I'd be taking her grocery shopping, and covering as much of her bill as I could.

Maybe a few single parents would literally push away all such helpful gestures -- but I think in most cases, if the in-laws have always been supportive of the marriage, and always made every effort to get along throughout the marriage and divorce, the single parent will end up breaking down and accepting the help, and being glad she did.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leta* 
If she wants a relationship with her DGD, it's silly to think that she can do that without mending fences with her DD.

You know, that's it. If there is a history of abuse, fences may not be able to be mended but if it's about respecting boundaries and other issues such as that, the grandparents should really be looking at their own behavior.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2-3* 
It is all about controlling ruthless grandparents.

In some cases. In some cases it is estranged people acting out of pain and fear. In other cases it is grandparents who love their grandkids and have seen abuse and harm that people outside the family are kept from seeing.

That's kind of the point in allowing the court to act in the best interest, because a hard fast rule that works in all family all the time does not exist.

Not all parents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill. Not all grandparents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill too.

Making it possible for the court to act on our behalf, as the people, may be imperfect but it is the best course we have managed to find.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Maybe a few single parents would literally push away all such helpful gestures -- but I think in most cases, if the in-laws have always been supportive of the marriage, and always made every effort to get along throughout the marriage and divorce, the single parent will end up breaking down and accepting the help, and being glad she did.

As someone who has worked with divorced couples in the past, I think you have a very sweet but very naive view here!

More than just a few divorced/single parents are horribly bitter, angry and resentful with the other parent. Lashing out through the children is sadly common. Making it near to impossible for the child(ren) to have any contact with exes or exes families is one of the most frequently seen disputes between estranged parents.

If it was only that easy!


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## Mama2-4 (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
In some cases. In some cases it is estranged people acting out of pain and fear. In other cases it is grandparents who love their grandkids and have seen abuse and harm that people outside the family are kept from seeing.

That's kind of the point in allowing the court to act in the best interest, because a hard fast rule that works in all family all the time does not exist.

Not all parents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill. Not all grandparents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill too.

Making it impossible for the court to act on our behalf, as the people, may be imperfect but it is the best course we have managed to find.

I can see your point, however in our case, the judicial system acted very unfairly. I know that we were unfortunate to get the judge we got, he dragged a very cut and dry case out for 2 years. We were told by our lawyer, our DD's lawyer and lawmakers that if we had any of the other family court judges this would have been dismissed the first day. There were no allegations that we are unfit parents, and our parental decision is supposed to be given special weight. We were not given that special weight until the last day in court.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

mom2-3, I was not speaking to anyone's specific situation. But was commenting on the idea that all such cases are caused by ruthless selfish grandparents. Obviously that's not true.

What you went through sounds horrible. But my sympathy for your situation doesn't change my mind that as a society we need to leave a legal possibility for grandparents to step in situations that are very different from yours. As I noted, it is an imperfect system, but I'm not aware of a better way to do it.

I hope all is well with you now!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I am very opposed to "grandparents' rights". Grandparents are part of their grandchildren's lives through invitation only. If their kids have a reason to not want them to be a part of the grandkids' lives, then that should be respected. There are millions of reasons why someone might not want their parents to have access to their kids. My father is an alcoholic and sometimes abusive. I allow him to see my daughter but I am there every moment and we abruptly leave if I feel any reason to at all. If he tried to sue to see her more often, very painful things would come out in court, and I don't think my family should be put through that, or the expense for that matter, over my decision to protect my child. I don't think anyone's family should be put through that.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

What about if, in a divorced family, something happens to, say, the Father so that he's not around. (I don't meant jail or anything like that, I mean dead.) What about if, with the Father gone, the Mother decides that she doesn't want her child to have anything to do with the Father's side of the family, not because of abuse or anything, just because she doesn't want the child to have contact with that side of tha family? What if, the child has seen this Grandparent almost every time the Father had visitation, so that the child and Grandparent have a close relationship? Do you still think it would be fair to refuse to let the child and Grandparent continue to have contact, continue to see eachother? Because that is exactly what would happen if my Hubby were to die- she would lose all contact with her Father's side of the family not because anyone is abusive or anything, but simply because her Mother wants to forget she ever married my Husband.
I see this not about the grandparents' right to see a grandchild, but the child's need to have these people around. If it could be figured out, I would support putting measures in place for a child to be able to go around their parents to gain access to a non-harmful family member. I do not support members of the extended family suing for visitation without the child initiating it somehow.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewingmommy* 
My mother who is bipolar always told me how she should have rights to her grandkids and they should have to visit her for extended periods of time because it was good for them to bond with her ....and I so disagreed with this ...because of her bipolar my dh and I decided after we were married to severe all ties because I just could not and would not put my kids through the emotional hell that I went through as a child and I was a little worried about her suing for Grandparents rights but so far she has shown no interest in either of my two sons .....

MY MIL and YOUR Mother need to get together sometime. I have a great relationship with my grandparents, and I think they are sometimes absolutely the best thing in the world for kids. I'm very close to my mom's parents, and my husband is very close to his grandparents. That said...

MY MIL doesn't take her meds and has made threats involving both CPS and grandparents' rights. We really did try to work with her, but she undermines every parenting decision we make. She has done things that I consider dangerous and/or unhealthy (Babies don't need car seats! Pop-tarts are good for breakfast! Smack her!) and is just cruel to people. We also seriously suspect Munchausen by Proxy with her children (whole long other story). I've just cut off all contact with her five weeks ago, although my husband calls his family once a week. We're moving next spring, and we're seriously considering just NEVER telling my in-laws exactly where we're going.
If something happened to DH and I, Katie goes to my husband's best friend and his wife. My parents aren't in a position to raise her, and thought this was a rational, mature decision. MIL has said it will be a cold day in hell before that happens.







:

On the other hand, I got a new phrase from her last night. She called DH to find out if I'd gotten the email she sent (he pleaded ignorance...she likes to know if I got upset or not














. Anyway, completely unrelated, but I, unlike St. Cindy, have "alley cat morals". I'm trying to use that phrase as much as possible now...it cracks me up.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I am VERY happy that Iowa recently abolished grandparents rights.

I allow my father in my sons life for now, but he's on VERY thin ice. He only sees my son once a month, if that. Per his choice...he is always too busy on the weekends to see James and yet he expects James to run to him with wide open arms when he DOES make time to see him.

He's spanked James twice, that I know of, and both times was told that that is NOT acceptable (it was one swat on the butt)...

My father was an abusive drug addict for 95% of my childhood and was NOT a good father.

I'm happy to know that at any given time I can cut him out of our lives and not have to worry about him comming after my children.

I'm sure there are some instances where grandparents rights are 'good' but IMO it it too dangerous for people in situations like mine to worry about the 'good ones' sorry that they have to slip through the cracks but I truely believe that protecting children from toxic grandparents is more important than protecting children from loosing loving grandparents..just my $0.02


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita* 
My mother threatened to sue us for grandparents' rights. Fortunately, in this state, the law protects intact families.

And, at times when I think about divorcing dh, I think that M would then have a leg to stand on in court, and it always makes me want to work through whatever problem dh and I are experiencing.

My MIL did the same thing, several years ago. Dp and I decided to divorce, then decided to give it another go. His psycho mother immediately said she'd sue for visitation if we split-- even though she had no reason to think we'd keep her from seeing the dc.







:

She'd do it, too. This is the same woman who, when dp was in college, threatened to tell the Canadian Border Patrol that he was carrying drugs, if he disobeyed her and went from NY to Toronto to visit friends.







Sure, get your kid thrown into a foreign prison if he defies you. Great idea.

I may have to stay married until she dies, just to be safe.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

If a child is being abused and needs to be removed from the home and placed in another home, grandparents rights have nothing to do with that situation. Grandparents would be the first choice, even over aunts and uncles in that situation. Even without grandparents rights laws, anyone can report suspected abuse.

It's unfair and wrong that some parents deny their children relationships with their grandparents in situations where there has been a death or just to be a crappy person. But, do we need laws about this? Do we need laws intervening in family disputes? I have yet to hear of a legal case involving grandparents rights that protected the children in a way that wasn't already provided for in other laws. I've been looking.

The idea about opposing grandparents rights laws being about "youth being king" and not respecting elders is just absurd.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Oh. I'm sorry, harleyhalfmoon! How sad that your husband's ex-wife would treat such kind people in such a bad way! I realize there are these insensitive people out there, who would even disregard the feelings of their own children. I just think they're few and far between. And I'm sorry you have such a person to deal with.









Hey, no problem. It's just that every case is different. I was just pointing out that maybe it shouldn't always be left up to the parents. But it should be investigated thoughly before any ruling, that's for sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
In some cases. In some cases it is estranged people acting out of pain and fear. In other cases it is grandparents who love their grandkids and have seen abuse and harm that people outside the family are kept from seeing.

That's kind of the point in allowing the court to act in the best interest, because a hard fast rule that works in all family all the time does not exist.

Not all parents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill. Not all grandparents can be trusted. They can lie, hurt and kill too.

Making it possible for the court to act on our behalf, as the people, may be imperfect but it is the best course we have managed to find.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I see this not about the grandparents' right to see a grandchild, but the child's need to have these people around. If it could be figured out, I would support putting measures in place for a child to be able to go around their parents to gain access to a non-harmful family member. I do not support members of the extended family suing for visitation without the child initiating it somehow.

You have a valid point, but for one thing- how is a six year old gonna initiate it somehow? She can't just call a lawyer. She'll tell the person she's with, the parent, and the parent, not wanting the Grandparents involved, is sure not gonna bring it up to the Grandparents and so Grandparents will never know that the child is initiating it? See what I'm saying?


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## khaoskat (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
In my state, they were declared unconstitutional in 2005. I dug up an old article for reference http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...parents08.html

Your State's GPV statute has been found unconstitutional twice, but each time it was re-written. The first was in in 2000, I believe the case was Troxel v. Granville (or coud that be the 2005) case. Then the legislature re-write the GPV to try to conform with the Court's ruling. Looks like it failed again according to that article. But I am 99% positive that your state has gone back to the legislature and re-write for a third time its GPV statute.

I will try to see if I can dig around to see if it has been re-written. But so far the only state to truely protect parents is Florida. Florida Statutes has specifically banned TPV/GPV.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

You have a valid point, but for one thing- how is a six year old gonna initiate it somehow? She can't just call a lawyer. She'll tell the person she's with, the parent, and the parent, not wanting the Grandparents involved, is sure not gonna bring it up to the Grandparents and so Grandparents will never know that the child is initiating it? See what I'm saying?
I do. But if a 9 or 10 year old (for as much as it would hurt the child emotionally if the parent didn't let them see the grandparent for that time) could figure out how to go to someone at school or in the community and say that they want help seeing their grandparents. Additionally, a parent couldn't effectively keep a child from seeing anyone forever, because one day that kid will be old enough to go see them without the parent's assistance. Just like I hung out with friends my parents didn't like when I was a teenager.

I would much rather some children miss out on seeing their grandparents until they're old enough to go see them on their own than the state tell parents what to do when there isn't abuse involved.


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## khaoskat (May 11, 2006)

I am against GP/TP Rights. In general, I feel that they are not right.

I know in our situation, the main reason the GP's don't get to see their Grandchildren is because a) They do not respect us as parents; b) They do not respect our decision with regards to our children; c) They feel they have a right to have a say in the education, medical care, etc of our child and in making such decisions regarding those; d) They have generally shown that they cannot follow our rules and that what they do is far superior to what we may do, and they are going to follow their own rules and beliefs; e) They could not in their current conditions chase after our kids and keep them safe and free from harm; f) They have to have visitation on their terms and their terms only; g) They have refused every single offer of time since April of this year we have made to them - things that the kids love (zoo, church festivals, amusement parks, train rides, etc).

My IL's are very old fashioned, our eldest was not even 24 hours old when they started demanding we feed him cereal. We refused...We had nursing issues, we worked with our ped and our ped was satisfied with how things were going, the IL's were not and started demanding we feed him cereal and jarred foods and stop nursing and start formula. DS1 was only 6 months old and exclusively nursed - they tried to feed him pumpkin pie, ice cream, cherry pie, raw carrots, raw celery, chips, dip, chili...then got upset when we asked them not to.

SIL said some very mean, nasty, hurtful things about and our decision making in a letter to DH. After I read through it, I was upset, I didn't want her around my children, giving them negativity towards me as a parent, because she didn't respect our parenting because it was not what her parents thought and wanted for our children and how her parents helped her raise her children. I refused to allow SIL around my children until such time as she appologized. For 2 years this went on. The only thing that ever happened was that FIL would do nothing but complain to ME about how is precious daughter was "pulling her hair out" to see our children; how not see'ing our children was negatively affecting his daughter. Nothing was ever done to help get his daughter to appologize.

The kicker is, her letter was based upon the events of a birthday party she never attended and are so one sided it is not even funny. Party was from 2-5 on a Sunday. I was doing Synchronized skating at the time, and that was the night of our practice. I would have to go home, cook real dinner for DH and I, then head down to a place that is about an hour away for practice. The party was about 30 mins from our house. DH and I told everyone we could only stay till 3, and every knew that from the get go. MIL/FIL showed up at 2:50 (when we had everything ready to go, so we could leave by 3:00). They were upset we wouldn't let them feed DS1 anything (again he was only 6 months old); that we wouldn't let them take out and drag out every single toy we brought for the kid to play with....the list goes on. They were even more pissed when we left at 3:00, which ment they couldn't spend time with their grandchild. That is not what came across to SIL....

Another kicker is --- nothing we have ever planned for any of our children's birthday parties is ever good enough for the IL's. I could spend 6 weeks trying to plan something, and they will turn down every single option I toss out at them. DS1's 1st birthday we did at a local pizza place - they showed up 2 hours because they cannot eat pizza. DS2 never had a first birthday party because I spend 6 weeks planning a b-day for him and then one for DS1 --- nothing was good enough for them...so they had to come to my skating practice and get the kids all riled up there late at night, which was not a proper time or place for a birthday party. Oh, and for DS2's 1st birthday - it was more important for FIL to take his boy scouts camping than to attend or be apart of his grandson's birthday.

And better yet...we lost our daughter a year ago at full term stillbirth. We, DH and I, decided we wanted to cremate and keep her remains with us. We re-iterated this to MIL/FIL after their numerous offers to open up family member X's grave to put our daughter in, the friday before her funeral. The day before her funeral, they are calling to determine If they need to dress for an outdoor burial or not. OMG - don't tell me that even up to the point that the day before my only daught'ers funeral you are going to try to call and force your will upon us with regards to our daughter. Then, I had to cut ties, because I couldn't take (and still cannot) handling my own grief of my daughter, then have to listen to how MIL is upset because it so much reminds her of the son she lost 30+ years ago. Why must you turn my child's loss into something about you and bring it up with me, while I am going through the worst time in my life.

I am not keeping my children from contact with either of the grandparents or either side of the family. What I am doing is not bowing down and letting grandparents raise my children for me and make child rearing decision for my children.

That is what a lot of these GPV/TPV suits are about. It is not about see'ing the child, most of them are about GP's who are offered time with their grandchildren, but it is not enough for them, and they want more. They don't like the "terms and conditions" put out on them by the child's parents....so they are going to take the parent(s) to Court to get what they want.

I shouldn't have to worry about if my child goes to visit MIL and runs out her front door if my child is going to fall into a well or get cut on a rusty piece of farm equipment just laying around on the property...because MIL cannot chase after my child, heck my DH and I have trouble just chasing after him at times. But that is WHAT my IL's WANT. Since we don't give it to them, we are the blacksheep, or rather I am, of their family. I get other family members berating me about how I should just set up a weekly visitation time for them...But that is not fair to us...Why should we have to set up something every week, make ourselves and our child available every week. Why can the GP's not see that we call them when we have time and try to make plans with them in advance to go do things, that the kids will enjoy, which will make their time more enjoyable with them. Instead, we get lame excuses why they cannot do something...


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I was told that some grandparents took this all the way to supreme court and lost-- and that sets a precedent against other suits that are similar. I believe the case was where a young couple divorced and then the young man died. The woman took their child to another state and did not want contact with the man's parents (the grandparents of the child). They sued and lost rights to visit the child.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma* 
I believe the case was where a young couple divorced and then the young man died. The woman took their child to another state and did not want contact with the man's parents (the grandparents of the child). They sued and lost rights to visit the child.

See, I think that is very sad.

(I don't know the details of the case, just speaking from my own pov)

If one of my boys died and I had no contact with his children, I'd be heartbroken and do whatever I could to be a part of their lives.

I know not all parents/grandparents are benevolent, kind people..... but I wonder what any of us would think if these were our grandchildren. I know my parents would go to the ends of the earth for my boys. I'm sure I'll feel that way with my grandchildren. These are the babies of our babies, yk?


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

A grandparent's access to their grandchildren is a privelage, not a right.

I'm not sure on the laws in my state (ca), but I imagine a gp would lose. You can't make me vax my kid or make them go to school or take them to a doctor, or to the dentist in my state. So I can't imagine them saying I HAVE TO let a relative see my kid.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

I think the reason grandparents rights has become a new legal issue is because of the growing numbers of young grandparents raising their grandchildren, especially in cases of young parents basically abandoning their kids.

It is apparently a rather new thing that has really come about so much in the last generation or two.

I think that there need to be legal provisions in place to protect children who have been basically dumped by their biological parents to keep them from being up-ended by an irresponsible parent who wants to yo-yo a kid back and forth between the grandparents and mommy's house...you know, I don't think biology should give you the right to screw around with a kid's life like that. I.E: Drop little Susie off on your mom's doorstep when she's 4 months old because you can't cope with being a parent and you want to keep living the party lifestyle. Your mom raises little Susie until she is 6 years old and then you show up, ready to be responsible, and take Susie off to play house. Then it gets to be too hard, so you take her back to Grandma...and so on and so on until Susie is 18 and totally messed up.

HOWEVER, I think that laws like this are a very slippery slope, too. I was a teenage mom, raising my son, going to college. My father and his wife could not have children, and I was my father's only child. Apparently, they had decided that I needed to give them my baby to raise, but they didn't let me in on this plan until I was ready to move out into my own apartment when my son was about 18 mos old. My father tried to sue me for custody of my son, claiming "grandparent's rights". Luckily, those such laws didn't exist in Florida at the time, so it was a mute point...but scary, nonetheless.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *woobysma* 
See, I think that is very sad.

I don't. I don't know enough about it to say whether it's sad or not. I do know that everybody in the freaking world thought my maternal grandmother was a saint, and we were just soooooo lucky to have her in our lives. I know my mom would have liked to have cut contact, but felt that "kids need grandparents". (That is such an insidious piece of nastiness, and I really can't help but wonder how many lives have been damaged by it.) I wish she had cut all ties, and I suspect that if she'd died, my dad would have - and more power to him if he had. The only reason he tolerated her in our lives was because she was his wife's mother, and his wife chose to put up with her - I can't see any reason why he should or would have done so if his wife (my mom) was gone.

The woman was toxic, emotionally abusive and did a bang-up job of screwing up all six of her grandkids (I'm probably the most emotionally healthy of the lot of us - maybe my middle cousin - and I have _serious_ issues with self-confidence and have spent most of my post-pubescent life in depressions of various degrees). I can almost guarantee that the courts would have felt my parents were absolutely out of line and unfair to cut us off from her over "their" issues with her. The courts would have been wrong, but I'm sure they would have reached that conclusion...she was such a sweet little old lady, after all.

Frankly, if the issues between the parents and grandparents are serious enough, then I think it's often for the best for the grandparents to be out of the picture. I think grandparents can be _wonderful_...but having an "authority" figure in the picture who encourages disrespect of the parents is bad news, and many of them do.

Quote:

I know not all parents/grandparents are benevolent, kind people..... but I wonder what any of us would think if these were our grandchildren. I know my parents would go to the ends of the earth for my boys. I'm sure I'll feel that way with my grandchildren. These are the babies of our babies, yk?
No - they're not. They're the babies of our grown children. I think the thought that the parents are "our babies" is a major contributor to a lot of these issues. When/if ds1 (as an example, as he could easily be a parent within a decade) becomes a dad, I have an obligation to him, my DIL and my grandchild(ren) to remember that _I'm not the parent_ of that child/those children. I had my turn.

I don't know what I'd think if I were the grandparent. I sincerely hope that I wouldn't try to tell my adult children how to raise their kids. I sincerely hope that I wouldn't treat my SILs and DILs as nothing but genetic contributors to "my" grandchildren (saw a lot of this from grandma, too - dad and my aunt were totally disposable). I sincerely hope that if my children have concerns with respect to my behaviour towards/around _their_ children, they talk to me, so that I can attempt to make the changes they feel are important.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
They're the babies of our grown children. I think the thought that the parents are "our babies" is a major contributor to a lot of these issues. When/if ds1 (as an example, as he could easily be a parent within a decade) becomes a dad, I have an obligation to him, my DIL and my grandchild(ren) to remember that _I'm not the parent_ of that child/those children. I had my turn.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for most cases. It mostly boils down to some of our parents not feeling confident about the way they've raised us: therefore it's hard for them to let go and give us space to parent our own kids.

Once or twice I even tried to get my mom to see this. I said something like, "You'd think that since you raised me, you'd feel better about my ability to raise my own children."

Ironically, Mom doesn't feel she raised me: she feels I spent so much time with my paternal grandparents (more time than she wanted me to spend, but she gave in to my dad who insisted on letting his parents have me whenever they wanted me), that it was really my Grandmother who raised me, not her.

But really I DID spend more time in my parents' home than I did in my grandparents': it's plain silly the way Mom thinks she's had no influence on me, just because I don't do everything like her.

Any time Mom doesn't agree with one of my parenting practices, she'll say, "Is that what your grandmother did with you?" It's so dumb. Even regarding the extended nursing, she'll ask how long my grandmother nursed my father, like I'd know.

I'm actually not sure if Grandma breast or bottle-fed ... and I'm 43 and Grandma died when I was 21: you know, there are actually things about me that have nothing to do with Grandma, but there's no persuading my mom.







:

I'd be truly heartbroken if some day my grown children wouldn't let me have anything to do with my grandchildren. But I still wouldn't see taking my kids to court as a valid option. I think most parents wouldn't want to deprive their children of loving extended family just to be spiteful, and for my own children (or their spouses) to be this spiteful seems like an almost non-existent possibility.

But if it happened, I'd just have to take a deep breath and go on with my life, and pray (and look) for ways to mend the breach and restore the relationship. As I see it, the best way to prevent such a catastrophe is to build a trusting relationship with our kids from day one.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oops! Double post.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oops! Triple post.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
They're the babies of our grown children. I think the thought that the parents are "our babies" is a major contributor to a lot of these issues. When/if ds1 (as an example, as he could easily be a parent within a decade) becomes a dad, I have an obligation to him, my DIL and my grandchild(ren) to remember that _I'm not the parent_ of that child/those children. I had my turn.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for most cases. It mostly boils down to some of our parents not feeling confident about the way they've raised us: therefore it's hard for them to let go and give us space to parent our own kids.

Once or twice I even tried to get my mom to see this. I said something like, "You'd think that since you raised me, you'd feel better about my ability to raise my own children."

Ironically, Mom doesn't feel she raised me: she feels I spent so much time with my paternal grandparents (more time than she wanted me to spend, but she gave in to my dad who insisted on letting his parents have me whenever they wanted me), that it was really my Grandmother who raised me, not her.

But really I DID spend more time in my parents' home than I did in my grandparents': it's plain silly the way Mom thinks she's had no influence on me, just because I don't do everything like her.

Any time Mom doesn't agree with one of my parenting practices, she'll say, "Is that what your grandmother did with you?" It's so dumb. Even regarding the extended nursing, she'll ask how long my grandmother nursed my father, like I'd know.

I'm actually not sure if Grandma breast or bottle-fed ... and I'm 43 and Grandma died when I was 21: you know, there are actually things about me that have nothing to do with Grandma, but there's no persuading my mom.







:

I'd be truly heartbroken if some day my grown children wouldn't let me have anything to do with my grandchildren. But I still wouldn't see taking my kids to court as a valid option. I think most parents wouldn't want to deprive their children of loving extended family just to be spiteful, and for my own children (or their spouses) to be this spiteful seems like an almost non-existent possibility.

But if it happened, I'd just have to take a deep breath and go on with my life, and pray (and look) for ways to mend the breach and restore the relationship. As I see it, the best way to prevent such a catastrophe is to build a trusting relationship with our kids from day one.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
They're the babies of our grown children. I think the thought that the parents are "our babies" is a major contributor to a lot of these issues. When/if ds1 (as an example, as he could easily be a parent within a decade) becomes a dad, I have an obligation to him, my DIL and my grandchild(ren) to remember that _I'm not the parent_ of that child/those children. I had my turn.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for most cases. It mostly boils down to some of our parents not feeling confident about the way they've raised us: therefore it's hard for them to let go and give us space to parent our own kids.

Once or twice I even tried to get my mom to see this. I said something like, "You'd think that since you raised me, you'd feel better about my ability to raise my own children."

Ironically, Mom doesn't feel she raised me: she feels I spent so much time with my paternal grandparents (more time than she wanted me to spend, but she gave in to my dad who insisted on letting his parents have me whenever they wanted me), that it was really my Grandmother who raised me, not her.

But really I DID spend more time in my parents' home than I did in my grandparents': it's plain silly the way Mom thinks she's had no influence on me, just because I don't do everything like her.

Any time Mom doesn't agree with one of my parenting practices, she'll say, "Is that what your grandmother did with you?" It's so dumb. Even regarding the extended nursing, she'll ask how long my grandmother nursed my father, like I'd know.

I'm actually not sure if Grandma breast or bottle-fed ... and I'm 43 and Grandma died when I was 21: you know, there are actually things about me that have nothing to do with Grandma, but there's no persuading my mom.







:

I'd be truly heartbroken if some day my grown children wouldn't let me have anything to do with my grandchildren. But I still wouldn't see taking my kids to court as a valid option. I think most parents wouldn't want to deprive their children of loving extended family just to be spiteful, and for my own children (or their spouses) to be this spiteful seems like an almost non-existent possibility.

But if it happened, I'd just have to take a deep breath and go on with my life, and pray (and look) for ways to mend the breach and restore the relationship. As I see it, the best way to prevent such a catastrophe is to build a trusting relationship with our kids from day one.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

I think grandparents should have the right to at least try to have access to their grandchildren under very limited situations. This is basically limited to when, say, one parent dies and the remaining parent decides to cut the other side of the family out completely. This is not really fair to the children -- they lost their mother or father; why should they have to lose extended family as well? (This assumes a previously good grandparenting relationship, and this also assumes a decent, fair court, neither of which are always the case, I know.) Another possible scenario is when the grandparent has acted as a de facto parent to the child for a considerable length of time. That's also unfair to the kid -- my good childhood friend was raised by her maternal grandparents because her dad left when she was a baby and her mom died when she was 5...what if her dad showed up when she was 12 and decided to get into rehab, pay back child support, do all of the fine/upstanding/etc. stuff, then seek custody "because he's the dad" and cut her off from her grandparents, who were really the only parents she had known for several years? (I believe my state accounts for this scenario with regard to grandparents, former stepparents, and other, non-related de facto parents...visitation is not automatically granted, but people in those situations have standing to try.)

I agree that grandparents should not have the right to seek custody of their grandchildren absent a loss of parental rights or a death of both parents, and that grandparents should not have the automatic right to see their grandchildren if their own children object (aside from the de facto parent situation outlined above).


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I think that everyone forgets that *YOU* one day may be that "horrible awful woman who hates everything I do, and I think she abused her son/daughter by XYZ and she'll have nothing to do with my children."

You think that gma is bipolar. What if YOU are the person who is bi-polar? What if the crime you commit as a gma is to love your grandchlidren, but your grandchild's parents aren't abusive enough for you to get custody away from them? What if YOU are the only loving thing in that child's life, and it is the PARENT who is the insane toxic manipulative b*tch?

All of you who are so pro-alternative lifestyle, or pro-marijuana, etc. When you are so into your "thing" that you do have your children involved. You who will not moderate your passion even for your child...you think that if your child gets older and has a child with someone who TOTALLY disagrees with you, or your own child decides that your love of some "totally normal natural substance dammit" that you'll change just so you can have access to your child. And of course, she'll say that you are insane and abusive and your grandchild's parents will think you are being manipulated by some terrible control freak.

It isn't about YOU. That is where EVERYONE who isn't a child falls down into their morass of whine. It isn't about YOU. And that is what the courts are for.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'd be truly heartbroken if some day my grown children wouldn't let me have anything to do with my grandchildren. But I still wouldn't see taking my kids to court as a valid option. I think most parents wouldn't want to deprive their children of loving extended family just to be spiteful, and for my own children (or their spouses) to be this spiteful seems like an almost non-existent possibility.

But if it happened, I'd just have to take a deep breath and go on with my life, and pray (and look) for ways to mend the breach and restore the relationship. As I see it, the best way to prevent such a catastrophe is to build a trusting relationship with our kids from day one.

What if the breach isn't fixable? What if your child isn't the person you envision right now, regardless of your parenting efforts? What if your children aren't appreciative - they hate it? What if they are bi-polar and angry at you? What are you going to do to fix that? What if you are homosexual, and your child joins a religion that doesn't accept that? Are you going to change that so that you can see your grandchildren?

Some things aren't fixable. Some things aren't just the "fault" of the grandparents. Being AP or similar isn't armour against your children thinking that your parenting blows.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

I think grandparents rights is a double edged sword myself. In some cases, it is completely warrented (as pp'd when parents are relying on gp's to raise child but not giving custody), but in others, completely unwarrented. In our case, my IL's are totally toxic and I believe that if they had the money to, would absolutely file against us for not only visitation, but custody. My mil seeks to interfere in EVERY decision we make regarding our children and as of about three weeks ago, has no contact with us or our children. Needless to say, she's pissed.

I think the courts should take this on a case-to-case basis and not as a blanket issue, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen.


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

I am opposed to gpv for the most part. My MIL is the most evil woman I've ever encountered in my life and will never God willing meet any of my children. We have it written into our Will that she is under no circumstances to even know if we pass on or the location of our children. We do have funds set aside in our will to fight a legal battle against her if necessary.

I worry for my children's very lives if she would ever meet them. I do believe she would not hesitate to murder them, that is how evil she is.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I think that everyone forgets that *YOU* one day may be that "horrible awful woman who hates everything I do, and I think she abused her son/daughter by XYZ and she'll have nothing to do with my children."

You think that gma is bipolar. What if YOU are the person who is bi-polar? What if the crime you commit as a gma is to love your grandchlidren, but your grandchild's parents aren't abusive enough for you to get custody away from them? What if YOU are the only loving thing in that child's life, and it is the PARENT who is the insane toxic manipulative b*tch?

All of you who are so pro-alternative lifestyle, or pro-marijuana, etc. When you are so into your "thing" that you do have your children involved. You who will not moderate your passion even for your child...you think that if your child gets older and has a child with someone who TOTALLY disagrees with you, or your own child decides that your love of some "totally normal natural substance dammit" that you'll change just so you can have access to your child. And of course, she'll say that you are insane and abusive and your grandchild's parents will think you are being manipulated by some terrible control freak.

It isn't about YOU. That is where EVERYONE who isn't a child falls down into their morass of whine. It isn't about YOU. And that is what the courts are for.


Huh?

I really don;t know if you are understanding that in most of these situations the parents have good reason for not allowing contact. And it is the parents choice. I don't think that many people imagine mental illness and drug abuse that isn't there. If that type of stuff is being alleged IMO there is usually some truth to it. If you have a good relationship with your kids then it wont be a problem.

My Father has met my son once, and there was a time that neither of his Grandmother's were allowed to take him, my mother didn't even get to see him for about 10 months or so. There were very valid reasons. And I shouldn't have to explain that to anyone except the people involved. I certainly shouldn't need permission from the Government about who I am allowed to keep my children away from.

I know that there are people who do this out of spite to wonderful GP's who don;t deserve it. That is sad. But I don;t think it is the Governments place to make these decisions for us.

If it were to happen to me I would deal with it as a tragedy. Bad things happen to good people every day...but I can't imagine the courts forcing me to send my kids off with a child abuser.

ITA with Jamesmama ...I think it is better than some really great grandparents lose out, rather than really terrible toxic grandparents being forced into the children's lives.

I think that if one parent dies, or if the Grandparents have helped raise the child it is different.

And this is something that I think about a lot. I think about how my kids WILL be between my grandkids and I someday, and I need to build a solid relationship with them now for us to have a solid relationship when they are adults. I think that will greatly minimize the chances that I will not be allowed in my grand children's lives..


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

IMO grandparents shouldn't get rights. They are not the parent. I think the whole idea is absurd.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

This disappeared, so trying again, and I apologizes if it shows up twice...

I agree with grandparents having the legal ability to gain visitation access to their grandchildren under two very narrow circumstances:
1. The grandparents have had a very good relationship with their grandchildren. Then, their child dies, and the surviving parent (the grandparents' S- or DIL) decides to cut off all access to the grandparents (out of grief, spite, remarriage, whatever).
2. The grandparents have been raising their grandchildren as de facto parents. Perhaps their child has died or disappeared. The other parent has done similarly. Then, one day, years later, the absent, surviving parent shows up, claims custody, and decides that the grandparents should no longer be allowed to see their children who they have raised for years.

In both of these scenarios, it would be traumatic to the children to lose their grandparents. In Scenario 1, the children have lost their mother or father; it would be even worse to lose an entire side of the family. Some states, when considering stepparent adoption, still have provisions for biological grandparents to visit their grandchildren. In Scenario 2, the grandchildren lose their de facto parents. (My best childhood friend lived with her maternal grandparents from the time she was 2, after her mom died. Her father left while her mom was pregnant and was never in the picture. Can you imagine the trauma if her dad had resurfaced when she was, say, 12, got custody, and forbid her from even contacting the only parents she ever really knew? In that case, I think rights should be extended to all de facto parents, whether they're grandparents, stepparents, aunts, neighbors, etc.)

This does presume that the grandparents are decent people (which we know is true in not all cases), and that the courts will be fair (ditto).

Note that I do not support grandparents pursuing visitation (or custody, for that matter) if their children are alive, competent, and in the picture. Then, it's up to the adult children. I don't think grandparents should be able to get separate visitation when their grandchildren's parents get divorced...if non-custodial Mom or Dad wants her or his parents to see the grandkids, s/he can invite them over during his/her time (or arrange a trip with consent of the ex or otherwise per the custody agreement).


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

okay i haven't read the whole thread but just posted in the thread about extemded families about how important i think it is for children to have access to their families, their traditions and histories! more than grandparents' rights, i strongy believe in a child's *right* to know his grandparents, and i don't think that should be intruded upon by either parent, except in cases where they are abusive etc.

i guess i should go back and read the whole thread, but has anyone brought up the issue of mixed-race couples? those who are against grandparents' rights: how would you react to this discussion if it was in context of a white parent denying a child access to it's black grandparents?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

This is a kind of emotional thread for me.

My DH and I have a niece and nephews who are very close to us and have been for a long time. Their dad has lived across the country most of their lives and so they have only really seen him once a year, but he is moving back and applying for custody. We haven't had any direct contact with him since he left his family and moved.

I'm reasonably sure he will be okay with us remaining close to his kids, but there is a chance he won't. I acknowledge entirely that they are his kids, but it is incredibly devastating to consider that he might cut us off. We supported them and their mother when he wasn't making any support payments and we have been there for birthdays and trips and vegging out and going to games and things.

In this case I can't see their mother losing visitation entirely, so we would have that time, but still - it opens the question a bit in my mind.

At the same time, I have a fraught relationship with my parents, and I can see situations in which I would not want them involved with my son. One of the things I do in trying hard to maintain a relationship with them is to make sure it doesn't get that extreme, because my preference is that he see them mostly when I am around, and it not get to that very black and white point.

So for me it is complex. I think the courts can't always make up for these things and perhaps leaving the rights with the parents is the best compromise, but I really can't blame people who want to maintain relationships in the face of divorce and custody battles.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I think that everyone forgets that *YOU* one day may be that "horrible awful woman who hates everything I do, and I think she abused her son/daughter by XYZ and she'll have nothing to do with my children."

You think that gma is bipolar. What if YOU are the person who is bi-polar? What if the crime you commit as a gma is to love your grandchlidren, but your grandchild's parents aren't abusive enough for you to get custody away from them? What if YOU are the only loving thing in that child's life, and it is the PARENT who is the insane toxic manipulative b*tch?

All of you who are so pro-alternative lifestyle, or pro-marijuana, etc. When you are so into your "thing" that you do have your children involved. You who will not moderate your passion even for your child...you think that if your child gets older and has a child with someone who TOTALLY disagrees with you, or your own child decides that your love of some "totally normal natural substance dammit" that you'll change just so you can have access to your child. And of course, she'll say that you are insane and abusive and your grandchild's parents will think you are being manipulated by some terrible control freak.

It isn't about YOU. That is where EVERYONE who isn't a child falls down into their morass of whine. It isn't about YOU. And that is what the courts are for.









:

I've never smoked marijuana, I'm wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt, I live in a house with a picket fence. I have three kids, a husband, and I used to have a dog. We go on holiday to the beach. I'm about as white-bread as you get









Unless there is a reason for the STATE OR THE COURT TO INTERVENE: i.e. neglect or abuse, children belong with their parents. Grandparents do not have rights, they have privileges. Period.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
What if the breach isn't fixable? What if your child isn't the person you envision right now, regardless of your parenting efforts? What if your children aren't appreciative - they hate it? What if they are bi-polar and angry at you? What are you going to do to fix that? What if you are homosexual, and your child joins a religion that doesn't accept that? Are you going to change that so that you can see your grandchildren?

I've already begun preparing myself for the possibility that one or both of my children may do things totally differently than I have. Since I have one of those mothers who seems to hate and criticize much of what I do (as mentioned in your previous post), I've realized I can't assume that just because I attachment parent my girls are going to do it, too.

I've realized I can be at peace when they're parents, even if they formula feed and put their babies in cribs (hard to imagine since they've been so happy about child-led breastfeeding and cosleeping for themselves!). I can be at peace because I feel good about the responsive mothering I'm giving them now. And they're learning from me about nursing and why babies should always get their mothers' milk where possible.

So, some 15 or 20 years down the line, I've got to let go and realize I've had my turn and now it's theirs. My oldest has sometimes wondered what things will be like when she's a mother ... and I've said I hope I'll get to see a lot of her and her new family -- but that her children will be her children and I'll respect her as the parent.

So, yeah, I suppose it's possible one of my kids'll marry someone who thinks we're







: for letting our kids nurse as long as they wanted, or for having a family bed, or for unschooling. It's hard to imagine a child of mine marrying someone like that (I'm always emphasizing how important it is for dating couples to talk about how they want to raise their kids: my 7yo is already talking about her plans to be a SAHM) --

But if it happens, it happens. All I can do, in that case (or any case), is give them the respect I wish my dear mom was willing to give me. After all, my mom genuinely believes she's right and I'm wrong. I know, first-hand, that someone believing they're right does NOT justify them interfering with and undermining other families. So I'm totally committed to applying this knowledge to myself when I'm a Grandma someday.

If, in spite of all our efforts, dh and I get dissed by all our children and their spouses (hard to imagine but I'm trying to keep an open mind) -- well, I'm sure we'll cry a bucket ... but then we'll pray and I'm sure God will lead us to some precious souls who need our love. And we'll find a way to go on, somehow.

I agree with the posters who've said that the *extremely few* hateful, spiteful individuals who'd keep their children away from wonderful, loving grandparents just to cause their parents pain, don't justify having laws in effect that could encroach on our rights as parents to protect our children from toxic situations.

In a case where a grandparent's been raising a child for years, and then an absentee parent steps back in to take over -- wouldn't that grandparent have already filed for some kind of custody, just to protect their grandchild from this possibility?

I don't see how that's a "grandparent's rights" issue, if the grandparent has actually been acting as the parent. It would be very easy for a guardian ad litem (sp?) to interview the child (or even observe a pre-verbal child) and ascertain that the grandparent is, indeed, the only parent the child has ever known.

Maybe I'm too naive about human nature. Maybe there's a remote possibility that an individual can grow up with loving, responsive, and respectful parenting, and inexplicably choose to fill herself to the brim with hate and a desire to hurt those parents and deprive her children of truly loving and delightful grandparents. But the possibility seems about as likely as the "cold day in hell" scenarios you sometimes hear about.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
My DH and I have a niece and nephews who are very close to us and have been for a long time. Their dad has lived across the country most of their lives and so they have only really seen him once a year, but he is moving back and applying for custody.

(snip)

We supported them and their mother when he wasn't making any support payments and we have been there for birthdays and trips and vegging out and going to games and things

(snip)

In this case I can't see their mother losing visitation entirely, so we would have that time, but still - it opens the question a bit in my mind.

Why would any judge in his/her right mind grant custody to an absentee father who's even withheld child-support for gaps of time? If he's moving back into the area, it sounds like he might be able to get visitation (like every other weekend) which should be nice for the kids if they'd like a chance to know their dad better --

but I can't see how he'd get custody when the mother's been the parent for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, through all the years when he's been off across the country, doing his other stuff.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Maybe I'm too naive about human nature. Maybe there's a remote possibility that an individual can grow up with loving, responsive, and respectful parenting, and inexplicably choose to fill herself to the brim with hate and a desire to hurt those parents and deprive her children of truly loving and delightful grandparents. But the possibility seems about as likely as the "cold day in hell" scenarios you sometimes hear about.

I actually know someone who would do this in a heartbeat...except that she needs her mom's help (read as "rides, money, childcare") too much. She had a loving mother and respectful parenting..._and_ a toxic-to-the-core grandmother who went around undermining her mother at every opportunity. Her grandmother turned every parental decision that she didn't agree with into "I love you more than your mom does - _I'd_ never do that to you". She completely destroyed the relationship between the mother and daughter...and now she's dead, and the relationship has never recovered. And, yes - this woman would absolutely deprive her children of a loving grandmother out of spite...as a result of the fact that _her_ mother thought _she_ "needed" a grandmother.

I'm very fortunate, as this has never been an issue for me. My mom, dad, stepdad and in-laws are all the type to let us alone to raise our kids. In 14 years, I think I may have had a half dozen unasked for "advisory" type comments, and they've all been out of concern for me (eg. mom's current worry that I'm taxing my body too much by nursing my 26-month-old while pregnant...which stems from a bad experience in the family a couple generations ago) - but she doesn't push.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
She had a loving mother and respectful parenting..._and_ a toxic-to-the-core grandmother who went around undermining her mother at every opportunity. Her grandmother turned every parental decision that she didn't agree with into "I love you more than your mom does - _I'd_ never do that to you". She completely destroyed the relationship between the mother and daughter...and now she's dead, and the relationship has never recovered.

Good point! Of course, I think love and respect also includes a willingness to protect our children from "toxic-to-the-core" people. I can't imagine how the undermining Grandma managed to do all this without Mama ever noticing. At the same time, I realize that the mother in question may have lacked other support and felt dependent on her own mom, and been so used to the toxicity she didn't realize what was happening 'til it was too late.

But this example you've shared actually strengthens my belief that parental rights *should not* be undermined by grandparents.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I actually know someone who would do this in a heartbeat...except that she needs her mom's help (read as "rides, money, childcare") too much.

Yes. The thing about angry, vindictive people is: they hate their parents but they also tend to feel their parents "owe" them. If there's anything to collect, and any possibility that they might get something by sticking around, they tend to want to keep a foot in the door.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

In my observation, though, the angry, vindictive people don't seem to have been attachment-parented.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?

I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I *do not* see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Good point! Of course, I think love and respect also includes a willingness to protect our children from "toxic-to-the-core" people. I can't imagine how the undermining Grandma managed to do all this without Mama ever noticing. At the same time, I realize that the mother in question may have lacked other support and felt dependent on her own mom, and been so used to the toxicity she didn't realize what was happening 'til it was too late.

The situation was very complex, and probably impossible to explain on a message board. But, the mom definitely didn't realize what was going on until it was too late to change it. Some people are incredibly good at emotional manipulation.

[/quote]But this example you've shared actually strengthens my belief that parental rights *should not* be undermined by grandparents.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same way - that's why I posted it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?

I wouldn't like it much, but what else could I do? Unless my child were actually harming my grandchildren in some way (in which case, I'd be looking at ways to address _that_), I don't believe that forcing my way into their lives wouldn't be in anybody's best interests, including those of my grandchildren. Since I hold that belief strongly, pushing my way in and involving the courts to make it happen, would be the ultimate in selfishness. That dosen't mean I'd just say "okay" - it wouldn't be okay - it would be heartbreaking. But, I wouldn't push it through the courts (I suspect I'd continue to do whatever I could to heal the breach with my kids, though).


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Why would any judge in his/her right mind grant custody to an absentee father who's even withheld child-support for gaps of time? If he's moving back into the area, it sounds like he might be able to get visitation (like every other weekend) which should be nice for the kids if they'd like a chance to know their dad better --

but I can't see how he'd get custody when the mother's been the parent for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, through all the years when he's been off across the country, doing his other stuff.

Ummmm there are some good reasons he might; I kind of hope they come up with a more creative solution. (Think, moved in with a drug dealer - pretty close.)


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?

Uh, there are many, many, many steps between "Okay and walk away" and "Take your children to court for visitation rights you have no legal right to"


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I *do not* see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The situation was very complex, and probably impossible to explain on a message board. But, the mom definitely didn't realize what was going on until it was too late to change it. Some people are incredibly good at emotional manipulation.


But this example you've shared actually strengthens my belief that parental rights *should not* be undermined by grandparents.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same way - that's why I posted it.

I wouldn't like it much, but what else could I do? Unless my child were actually harming my grandchildren in some way (in which case, I'd be looking at ways to address _that_), I don't believe that forcing my way into their lives wouldn't be in anybody's best interests, including those of my grandchildren. Since I hold that belief strongly, pushing my way in and involving the courts to make it happen, would be the ultimate in selfishness. That dosen't mean I'd just say "okay" - it wouldn't be okay - it would be heartbreaking. But, I wouldn't push it through the courts (I suspect I'd continue to do whatever I could to heal the breach with my kids, though).[/QUOTE]

And if it was your *CHILDREN'S* Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now? My point is, parents are not always right (and neither are grandparents, for that matter), and if it were *YOUR* grandchildren, you wouldn't fight to see them no matter what? Of course you'd do everything possible, bend over backwards to see your grandchildren, but if it didn't work, you would be okay with just letting them go?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Uh, there are many, many, many steps between "Okay and walk away" and "Take your children to court for visitation rights you have no legal right to"

Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
And if it was your *CHILDREN'S* Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now? My point is, parents are not always right (and neither are grandparents, for that matter), and if it were *YOUR* grandchildren, you wouldn't fight to see them no matter what? Of course you'd do everything possible, bend over backwards to see your grandchildren, but if it didn't work, you would be okay with just letting them go?

Okay - I'm not sure exactly which scenario you're talking about here (when you say "children's wives or husbands"), but I'll address the two major categories I see.

1) My child has died or gotten a divorce, and his/her spouse decides to cut off contact between me and the grandchildren.

I don't see this as likely, unless there were pre-existing problems between me and my DIL/SIL. I am aware that it could happen, though. Okay with it? Not even a little bit. However, in the case of my child's death, I'm also not okay with dragging my grandchildren's sole surviving parent through the stress of court battle, just to defend my "right" to see his/her children. I see that as an action that would only add more stress to the children's lives. Even if I "won", it would be grudging access, and an adversarial situation couldn't help but be created by the court case.

OTOH, if my child has divorced, and has partial custody, then his/her spouse can't cut me off totally. If my child does _not_ have any custody, then the issue of why he/she doesn't arises. In many circumstances, I can see where my DIL/SIL would be pissed at me and/or blame me for the breakup and resulting custody issues. Once again, I don't see how a court battle could possibly help the situation, or be in the best interests of my grandchildren.

2) My child and his/her spouse are still married, and have cut me off. In that case, it's not my DIL/SIL who have cut me off. My child would have to be an active participant in the decision. In that case, my relationship with my child is the core issue, not my relationship with my grandchildren.

Quote:

Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.
I absolutely will not subject my children/grandchildren to court proceedings and the unpredictable decisions of judges, based on my desire to see my grandchildren. I do NOT feel that involving the courts would be in my grandchildren's best interests, short of actual abuse/neglect...and if it's not in their best interests, I'm not going there.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Generally, I am against GPV laws. Whether the reasons are "rational" or not, the parents should get the ultimate say in who their children have contact with.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
And if it was your *CHILDREN'S* Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now?

I believe my children are preparing for marriage and parenthood at this very moment, while growing up in my home. Yes, I realize that even strong, confident young people will sometimes choose to marry controlling, abusive spouses.

My goal right now is to help my children build their own inner resources, to the point where hopefully they won't choose to mate with controlling, abusive people ... or where even if they make a wrong choice, they'll realize there's a way out of the situation, that not everyone lives this way, and they don't have to, either.

My time to fight such a situation is really now, while I still have contact with my children. If at some point they marry controlling people and cut me off, all I can do is pray that something in them will remind them they have a choice.

I agree with everything Storm Bride has to say about this subject. In a divorce, if my child has any parental rights at all, the ex-spouse can't completely cut me off: as long as my child wants her children to know me, I'll at least get to see them during her visitation time.

If my child dies and -- in spite of how gracious I've been as a mother-in-law -- my child's spouse decides to cut me out of their lives completely ... I'll be devastated and I'm sure I'll make periodic attempts to contact the spouse and see if I can get him to change his mind, but I don't see any positive outcome coming through a court case.

Quote:

Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.
But it's not the *judge's* favor I'd care about. I'd care about my grandkids, and I'd know that behaving coercively toward their only living parent would only create resentment, distrust, and bad feelings all around. I also think the likelihood is very small that such extreme measures would ever be taken against me.

Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.

But even more important is for my children to do what makes them happy, even if it's on the other side of the world. While I agree that just getting to see my kids and grandkids once or twice a year is still better than losing all contact -- it's a far cry from my ideal of having my little tribe take over this block.

So, just as I encourage my children to build their own inner resources, I remember to nourish my own as well. These days, whenever I have to cut short something I'm interested in -- such as reading, writing, or browsing the internet -- I remind myself that these are things I can come back to when my kids are older.

And in the unlikely event that I'm cut off completely (or have little contact), I'll guess I'll have unlimited time to pursue the interests I can only enjoy in snatches right now. I'm not saying that's my first choice, but at least I HAVE choices. Even in a life laced with sadness, I know I can always find some things that make me happy.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - I'm not sure exactly which scenario you're talking about here (when you say "children's wives or husbands"), but I'll address the two major categories I see.

1) My child has died or gotten a divorce, and his/her spouse decides to cut off contact between me and the grandchildren.

I don't see this as likely, unless there were pre-existing problems between me and my DIL/SIL. I am aware that it could happen, though. Okay with it? Not even a little bit. However, in the case of my child's death, I'm also not okay with dragging my grandchildren's sole surviving parent through the stress of court battle, just to defend my "right" to see his/her children. I see that as an action that would only add more stress to the children's lives. Even if I "won", it would be grudging access, and an adversarial situation couldn't help but be created by the court case.

OTOH, if my child has divorced, and has partial custody, then his/her spouse can't cut me off totally. If my child does _not_ have any custody, then the issue of why he/she doesn't arises. In many circumstances, I can see where my DIL/SIL would be pissed at me and/or blame me for the breakup and resulting custody issues. Once again, I don't see how a court battle could possibly help the situation, or be in the best interests of my grandchildren.

2) My child and his/her spouse are still married, and have cut me off. In that case, it's not my DIL/SIL who have cut me off. My child would have to be an active participant in the decision. In that case, my relationship with my child is the core issue, not my relationship with my grandchildren.

I absolutely will not subject my children/grandchildren to court proceedings and the unpredictable decisions of judges, based on my desire to see my grandchildren. I do NOT feel that involving the courts would be in my grandchildren's best interests, short of actual abuse/neglect...and if it's not in their best interests, I'm not going there.

Ultimately, I agree with this. But, at the same time, I do think there are many cases where I would have incredible sympathy for the grandparents. Not all adult children act in the best interests of their children, unfortunately, even when they're trying too. But, they'll get it right more often then the courts will, and the battle is not in anyone's best interests.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I *do not* see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I believe my children are preparing for marriage and parenthood at this very moment, while growing up in my home. Yes, I realize that even strong, confident young people will sometimes choose to marry controlling, abusive spouses.

My goal right now is to help my children build their own inner resources, to the point where hopefully they won't choose to mate with controlling, abusive people ... or where even if they make a wrong choice, they'll realize there's a way out of the situation, that not everyone lives this way, and they don't have to, either.

My time to fight such a situation is really now, while I still have contact with my children. If at some point they marry controlling people and cut me off, all I can do is pray that something in them will remind them they have a choice.

I agree with everything Storm Bride has to say about this subject. In a divorce, if my child has any parental rights at all, the ex-spouse can't completely cut me off: as long as my child wants her children to know me, I'll at least get to see them during her visitation time.

If my child dies and -- in spite of how gracious I've been as a mother-in-law -- my child's spouse decides to cut me out of their lives completely ... I'll be devastated and I'm sure I'll make periodic attempts to contact the spouse and see if I can get him to change his mind, but I don't see any positive outcome coming through a court case.

But it's not the *judge's* favor I'd care about. I'd care about my grandkids, and I'd know that behaving coercively toward their only living parent would only create resentment, distrust, and bad feelings all around. I also think the likelihood is very small that such extreme measures would ever be taken against me.

Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.

But even more important is for my children to do what makes them happy, even if it's on the other side of the world. While I agree that just getting to see my kids and grandkids once or twice a year is still better than losing all contact -- it's a far cry from my ideal of having my little tribe take over this block.

So, just as I encourage my children to build their own inner resources, I remember to nourish my own as well. These days, whenever I have to cut short something I'm interested in -- such as reading, writing, or browsing the internet -- I remind myself that these are things I can come back to when my kids are older.

And in the unlikely event that I'm cut off completely (or have little contact), I'll guess I'll have unlimited time to pursue the interests I can only enjoy in snatches right now. I'm not saying that's my first choice, but at least I HAVE choices. Even in a life laced with sadness, I know I can always find some things that make me happy.


Super posts, I completely agree....

I am ever so thankful I live in Florida!

Not that my parents are nuts or anything, but my mom is sort of the entitled type who believes she has a "right" to a relationship with my daughter and it annoys me. I don't believe she would ever sue for anything, but the personality of someone who would be the type to sue is my mom









I don't worry a thing about the in-laws, if something were to happen to my husband or we were to get divorced (God forbid to both!), I would totally keep them in my daughter's life and my life -- I love his mom (mil) and we have in some ways a closer relationship than me and my mom do (don't tell my mom







) -- they live a lot further away though... I also like his sisters a lot and well, fil is okay too...

Even so, I ultimately believe it is the parents' decision who their children spend time with -- and moreso if the children are old enough, the children's decision should be considered a lot. So what if you have your mil, if your child loves her, your child should be afforded the opportunity to spend time with her --- however, I don't at all believe anything good comes from grandparents suing... nothing says love like litigation







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.









:
I feel terrible for my in-laws. They're in Knoxville, and we're here in Vancouver with their only grandchildren. I know it breaks my MIL's heart when she doesn't get to see us...and when she does, because she adores our kids, and it's SO difficult to forge a close connection at such a distance. They call every weekend - she sends cards and e-cards for every birthday, Easter, Halloween, Valentine's Day, etc...everything she can. It's just not the same as being here, though.

My mom, otoh, has 11 grandchildren, with number 12 under construction...and we _all_ live within a 10 minute drive of mom's house. She feels very fortunate.


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## DBassett (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hubris* 
My own two cents is that some grandparents confuse _rights_ with _privileges_. It is a privilege for both the child and the grandparent to have a functional relationship with each other. I don't believe that grandparents should have the right to force a relationship.

ITA

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewingmommy* 
My mother who is bipolar always told me how she should have rights to her grandkids and they should have to visit her for extended periods of time because it was good for them to bond with her ....and I so disagreed with this *...because of her bipolar* my dh and I decided after we were married to severe all ties because I just could not and would not put my kids through the emotional hell that I went through as a child and I was a little worried about her suing for Grandparents rights but so far she has shown no interest in either of my two sons .....

No offense but I sincerely hope that you didn't sever all ties just because she's bipolar. Hopefully there is more to the story than what you've told us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ProtoLawyer* 
This disappeared, so trying again, and I apologizes if it shows up twice...

I agree with grandparents having the legal ability to gain visitation access to their grandchildren under two very narrow circumstances:
1. The grandparents have had a very good relationship with their grandchildren. Then, their child dies, and the surviving parent (the grandparents' S- or DIL) decides to cut off all access to the grandparents (out of grief, spite, remarriage, whatever).
2. The grandparents have been raising their grandchildren as de facto parents. Perhaps their child has died or disappeared. The other parent has done similarly. Then, one day, years later, the absent, surviving parent shows up, claims custody, and decides that the grandparents should no longer be allowed to see their children who they have raised for years.

In both of these scenarios, it would be traumatic to the children to lose their grandparents. In Scenario 1, the children have lost their mother or father; it would be even worse to lose an entire side of the family. Some states, when considering stepparent adoption, still have provisions for biological grandparents to visit their grandchildren. In Scenario 2, the grandchildren lose their de facto parents. (My best childhood friend lived with her maternal grandparents from the time she was 2, after her mom died. Her father left while her mom was pregnant and was never in the picture. Can you imagine the trauma if her dad had resurfaced when she was, say, 12, got custody, and forbid her from even contacting the only parents she ever really knew? In that case, I think rights should be extended to all de facto parents, whether they're grandparents, stepparents, aunts, neighbors, etc.)

This does presume that the grandparents are decent people (which we know is true in not all cases), and that the courts will be fair (ditto).

Note that I do not support grandparents pursuing visitation (or custody, for that matter) if their children are alive, competent, and in the picture. Then, it's up to the adult children. I don't think grandparents should be able to get separate visitation when their grandchildren's parents get divorced...if non-custodial Mom or Dad wants her or his parents to see the grandkids, s/he can invite them over during his/her time (or arrange a trip with consent of the ex or otherwise per the custody agreement).

Well put!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?

I wouldn't say "okay" and just walk away. I'd be hurt but it's my children's choice at that point.

I'm going to be cutting all ties with my mother VERY soon if she continues on the path she's on. She is a toxic person. She used to beat me from the age of about 12 until I moved out at 19. It stopped briefly after I started fighting back but then she got brave and started hitting me again. She is a freaking tramp and has been cheating on my father for quite some time now and will get into a screaming match with me when I tell her that if she leaves my father for this scum (which she fully intends on doing) HE is not welcome in my home. She however twists everything I say around and is telling my family that I said she can't be happy and that I'm going to take her grandchildren away from her if she leaves my father at all- no matter what the reason is and that I said she had to stay with him regardless of what she wanted if she wanted to see my kids when I NEVER said that. She is bipolar but SEVERELY and she has some severe behavioral issues. She has physically abused my father (he couldn't do anything about it because cops actually told him that it's impossible for a wife to abuse her spouse







: ) myself, and my brother. She knows never to touch my children in a harmful manner because of what would clearly be a UA violation. She neglected me as a baby, my dad said he'd come home from work and my mom was SOUND asleep while I was crying in my crib. She fights with everyone, seriously, all you have to do is look at her and she'll start screaming. She had my father arrested in 1999 FOR NO REASON. SHE LIED to have him arrested and then started spreading rumors throughout the family that she was afraid that he was going to sexually abuse me







: Yeah right. My father is HARMLESS. My dad had to send me to live with my Aunt because my mom would NOT stop hitting me. He was trying to find a place to live so he could leave her but he needed me in a safe place during that. It got to the point where my Aunt would not let me accept phone calls from my mother because all my mother was doing was SCREAMING at me for ruining her life. She kept telling me how *I* was the reason her husband was leaving her. He ended up taking her back because she *APPEARED* to have gotten better. She got worse again after about 6 months. The school also ended up not letting me take phone calls from her because she was calling me and SCREAMING so loudly that the office staff could hear her and I would be standing there in tears.

My mom is a toxic person and will outright lie to make the person she is angry with look like a horrible monstrous person. Her and my father are getting ready to be divorced and she felt the need to tell my oldest son (WHO IS ONLY 5) that she's leaving his "Poppa"(my dad says he's too young to be grandpa lol). She had no right to bring my son into this and she knows that. She did it to make him hate his Poppa (she eluded that poppa was mean to her).

If she keeps doing it, I'm either changing my phone #, pressing charges for harassment (she calls multiple times after being hung up on. Seriously within a 2 min span last night her number showed up like 4x on my caller ID), or getting a restraining order- possibly all 3.

Should this woman have any rights to her grandchildren? NO. She's abusive, vindictive, manipulative, cruel, cold hearted, the list goes on. Should I be forced to let her see my kids? I THINK EMPHATICALLY NOT! I am the parent and it is my responsibility to do what's in the best interest of my children. If I continued to let such a person in my children's lives, I would be failing miserably as a parent. FWIW, she would NEVER directly harm my children. The reason why I feel she should not see them (if she continues this) is because my children should not have to watch her treat people like this and see her hurt other people. If my mom were to some day get the psychiatric help that she really needs, there is no reason why I wouldn't let her see the kids. Right now though, she bounces back and forth. One day she's SUPER SUPER SWEET and I love her to death and the very next day (sometimes even later that night) she's screaming at me and the toxic woman comes out. We need for her to be the loving, super sweet woman all the time.

FTR, if my mom tried to sue me, she has child abuse charges against her and she'd get nowhere. The judge would not side with her.

Now, my IL's. MIL is fine. I would never deny her the chance to see the kids.

FIL and StepMIL are rude to all of us. For 5 years they have treated me like I wasn't good enough for DP. When watching older DS, they refuse to do things by our rules. They constantly undermine EVERY SINGLE THING we do. We cloth diaper- they hate it. They tell us how they don't approve. I'm still BFing younger DS and they have made it quite clear that they don't approve of extended BFing regardless of the fact that DS has little to no interest in food and he has food allergies. We homeschool and they berated us about that and let us know how stupid our reasoning was IN FRONT OF our homeschooled child. The rarely come to visit and they live about 20 minutes away. It's disgusting. They missed younger DS's birthday party and showed up nearly 2 weeks later...I want to cut ties with them but DP won't let me bc he claims that they just don't know any better. If DP died, I'd cut ties with them because of the way they treat me and my older son. If we moved out of state, I KNOW they wouldn't come and visit us and while I wouldn't necessarily cut ties, I wouldn't drive out here to see them. The way it is now, I don't go to their house unless it's a special occasion. DP is free to take Adam up there but Adam strongly dislikes them and won't go unless he's forced to. DP can't take the baby bc he still very much needs to BF'd SO DP has to go alone. I didn't cut ties but I won't go to their home bc it's like they feel they have free run. When they're here, if they're rude, I can make them leave. I'll be damned if someone is going to talk down to me in my own home. When younger DS cuts out some of his nursing sessions, he's free to go with his daddy to visit them but for right now, since he NEEDS to be with me and I won't go, he can't go.

Grandparents have PRIVILEGES and those privileges can be revoked and SHOULD BE revoked if they can not act in an acceptable manner.

In the cases where the parents are just being mean and refusing the gparents visitation, well I don't think the court should be able to mandate anything but I feel sad because I don't think the parents should be being so mean.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

It is senseless to use one's own personal expereince as the sole deciding factor for laws that are meant to shape the lives of millions.

Extreme cases make bad law, and many of the stories here are hearbreakingly exteme.

But for every toxic grandparent story there is a toxic parent story where the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of an extended family.

I certainly think there should be a tough standard for grandparents to have rights. Ever consideration should be taken to maintain parental control.

Nonetheless, I can't support removing all chances of a legal right for grandparents. There is just no way to have that kind of absolute law provides the flexibility that is needed to come up with the best solutions for the most people.


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## RoadWorkAhead (Sep 8, 2005)

Ack, babies erasing posts









For once, I like living in Fla. I like knowing that I can control who my children see. I have judiciously mentioned to each of our families the circumstances under which they would lose the right to see my children. For DH's family, it was over accepting my DS as one of their clan (which they now do beautifully). For my mom, it was her obsession w/ weight (particularly mine)...It wasn't purposefully mean, but it was IMO not good for my children to hear - She now gets it and life is grand, she's so close to my DS. As for my dad,well, he knows he's walking on thin ice b/c of his wife. He'll be allowed to see them if he steps up and chooses to do so alone, but hs wife will have extremely limited, supervised contact w/ my children. If I were to die, she has threatened to try and take my son from my DH (his biodad has legally abandoned). Is she concerned for my DS and DD's relationship as sibs? ONly insomuch as she could then try and take DD from DH. She has in the past attempted to teach my child to tell me he wants to be her child and not mine- She would sue if we lived in a different state b/c she wants kids (shes 29, and has none) and dad is fixed perm (and too old to adopt)....I know b/c shes said as much. I find the way she treats my dad deplorable and bordering on abusive, but the courts won't see that. Could I prove her horribly toxic? Not without dying in a mountain of debt. Is it still my call as their parent to decide? Yes it sure is. The court having the right to mandate GPV is like the court having the right to mandate any number of other parenting choices we make, and frankly, I go with parents rights on this. I don't want the court to tell me I must do compulsory ed or vax, or wean, or anything else.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

People who were raised by AP parents might be less likely to seek out information about AP because they lived it growing up and don't need as much help. Those of us from troubled families are more likely to need information and resources, so we're more likely to seek out a community like this. That's probably why there are more people from troubled families of origin here. I doubt most people who AP in general were raised in troubled families.

My husband is very close to his family and I adore them. He was raised pretty AP and doesn't need to read books or anything because it all comes very naturally to him. I need to read.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I will say that my daughter's grandparents on both sides are pretty wonderful, but for some *issues* here and there. I don't believe they are *toxic* or *murderous* or anything of the sort --- HOWEVEVER... even if they were the friggin' Waltons of the Brady's (think Brady Bunch) it is still not ANYONE ELSE'S RIGHT BUT MINE (and dh) AND MY CHILD'S to determine who my child spends time with.

Being a grandparent, or ANYONE in my child's life, is a privledge, not a right. I believe even being my own child's mother is a gift I have been given from God and I don't take that lightly either. However, as someone who takes that gift very seriously, it is up TO ME (and dh, and dd when she is older) to determine who in her life is either adding to her security, love, happiness -- or who is taking away from it or compromising it....

Besides, as mammal_mama (and others) have brought up -- how in the world does anyone think taking someone's parents to court is going to create warm and fuzzy *wanna spend time with you* feelings in a child?

If someone took my parents to court with the intention of gaining visits BY FORCE, I would have been SO resentful... and my parents made a lot of mistakes in raising me... but it still would have left a sour taste in my mouth.

Again, happy to be living in Florida. I like my parental rights thanks.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I guess because we as parents have the wild, unreasonable, crazy, insane belief that we should be the ones who ultimately determine who our children spend our time with and unfortunately, sometimes choose to deprive grandparents of their God given right to beat or molest or otherwise damage our children







: How dare we take that away from them?







:

That is exactly how my Father feels!


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

This thread has been returned after editing for MDC User Agreement Violations. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email or private message. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages within a reasonable time frame, if we determine removal is necessary. If you feel another member is behaving in a manner that is in violation of these rules, do not take matters into your own hands.

Dallaschildren


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
People who were raised by AP parents might be less likely to seek out information about AP because they lived it growing up and don't need as much help. Those of us from troubled families are more likely to need information and resources, so we're more likely to seek out a community like this. That's probably why there are more people from troubled families of origin here. I doubt most people who AP in general were raised in troubled families.

My husband is very close to his family and I adore them. He was raised pretty AP and doesn't need to read books or anything because it all comes very naturally to him. I need to read.

My post doesn't make much sense in this thread anymore.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
Extreme cases make bad law, and many of the stories here are hearbreakingly exteme.

But for every toxic grandparent story there is a toxic parent story where the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of an extended family.

First you say "Extreme cases make bad law" -- then you talk about extreme cases where parents are toxic and "the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of extended family." Why should there be a law based on such extremes?

Quote:

I certainly think there should be a tough standard for grandparents to have rights. Ever consideration should be taken to maintain parental control.
I think the "tough standard" should be that there are no pro-grandparents rights laws in effect. In the rare cases where parents are toxic -- that's child-abuse and should be treated as such.

And for anyone who argues that the parents may be "toxic" without doing anything that could be recognized as abuse -- I'm sorry, that's simply not toxic enough to justify interfering with parental rights.

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Nonetheless, I can't support removing all chances of a legal right for grandparents. There is just no way to have that kind of absolute law provides the flexibility that is needed to come up with the best solutions for the most people.
I don't think there should be a specific law. If grandparents are raising their grandkids, they need to get guardianship so the parents can't flit back in and jerk the kids around. As you've said, such extreme cases don't justify passing a law that can interfere with other families.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

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And, judges are not Solomon's. I'm sorry, courts just cannot be relied upon to wade through complex family relationship and "divide the child" equitably. Plus, litigation is so costly, and the one with the most resources, or backed by a politically active well financed organization (like say, one devoted to grandparents' rights), can win or completely exhaust and bankrupt the other side to the extreme detriment of the child. I do feel bad for GP who are loving and get cut out of their GC lives, and I hope to heck it never happens to me, but the courts just are not the solution.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Iris' Mom* 
I do feel bad for GP who are loving and get cut out of their GC lives, and I hope to heck it never happens to me, but the courts just are not the solution.

That's it in nutshell.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
First you say "Extreme cases make bad law" -- then you talk about extreme cases where parents are toxic and "the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of extended family." Why should there be a law based on such extremes?

I think the "tough standard" should be that there are no pro-grandparents rights laws in effect. In the rare cases where parents are toxic -- that's child-abuse and should be treated as such.

I agree. When I first read the post about "the only sanity in a kid's life", I thought of an old friend of mine who was in that exact position. His grandmother was the only positive influence he remembers having as a child. It would have been sick to cut her off. But, if she'd wanted legal recourse, I think the fact that his mom abandoned him, and his father was neglectful (to the point of leaving the 4 kids home alone with no food, and sometimes no utilities, for days when the oldest was only 8) and abusive (verbally and physically). I absolutely agree that his grandmother should have been in his life...but I think charges for the abuse would have done a lot more good than fighting for access under some "grandparents rights" law.


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