# UGH-SOME PEOPLE (vent!)



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

I just have to share...

I was just driving home and the car in front of me had a small child (under 1) STANDING on the center console of their car while they drove down the street. There were two people in the back supporting her, and one driver.

Ordinarily I wouldn't do much but fume, but this time I pulled alongside at a red light, honked my horn, and when they rolled their window down I proceeded to tell them that what they were doing is illegal, that her baby needs to be in a carseat, and that she was being a bad parent. All she said was "thanks" and rolled the window up and sped away.

AGH! At least I said something, and maybe they'll rethink letting their sweet little girl stand up in the car while driving through traffic.

What are some people smoking out there? I mean really???

Jen
Samantha *My mommy needs a blue light so she can drive around making sure all babies are safe in their carseats*
Schnitzel edd 11/13


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

I probably would have taken down the tag # and called the police. I've done it before. Jerky I know. But it is the law. When I called I gave them the location and direction the people were going in, and a police car was dispatched to get 'em!


----------



## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Some people are just ridiculous.









Good for you for trying to make the driver change the situation.







Bad on her for not doing it.


----------



## dewlady (Jul 8, 2004)

i agree that is not a great idea at all but call the police??? that, i wouldn't do... don't know what their story is.. not my place, that's just my opinion, though.


----------



## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Sorry, I don't agree with you at all. North Americans have gotten absolutely hysterical over safety issues, to the point of being utterly ridiculous. My babies hated carseats, and when I had to choose between changing their brain chemistry by forcing them to cry while strapped down, or running the very very very small risk that we would be in an accident on the way to the grocery store in the middle of the day, I picked the smallest likely harm.

Having lived in a country where no one wears seatbelts, never mind carseats, I can tell you that accidents tend to happen under certain circumstances - avoid those circumstances, and avoid most accidents. Is there a slight risk? Sure there is. There is a slight risk to everything. North Americans act like any risk is bad, which is obviously a very paranoic way to live. There is always a risk. Evaluating that risk is part of life.

How many mothers who would never consider using CIO nevertheless strap their infants into car seats and let them scream? From the babies point of view, what is the difference? Crib or backseat of a car? With no human comfort? Letting babies cry hurts them. There's a risk in that, too.


----------



## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Would you call the police if it were obviously a drunk driver? There is no excuse for driving while intoxicated and there is also no excuse for allowing a 1 year old to stand up in the car. They are equally dangerous and calling the police is not an unacceptable course of action. I don't care what their situation is, that poor baby deserves better. Would you feel ok if you neglected to call the police and an hour later you drove by that same location and saw that car had gotten into a car accident and the baby had flown out of the car and into traffic where he/she was struck and killed? Most children who are killed in car accidents are killed because they were not properly restrained.

Good for you for saying something to her. Too bad she didn't listen.


----------



## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

http://www.stlouischildrens.org/arti...ts.asp?id=3009

I don't think that reducing the risk of injury and death by 71% is minor at all.

Considering most accidents happen close to home, I don't think that "a quick trip to the store" is acceptable.

You can NOT avoid all accidents. You can't control who else is on the road with you. You can't control how much alcohol they've had in the middle of the day, or who's too busy changing CD's to see you.

A child's life is worth too much IMO to just be so blase about it.


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
My babies hated carseats, and when I had to choose between changing their brain chemistry by forcing them to cry while strapped down, or running the very very very small risk that we would be in an accident on the way to the grocery store in the middle of the day, I picked the smallest likely harm.







































The smallest likely harm?? Avoid those circumstances?? Do you know what other people are going to do before they do it? Unless you do, you can't avoid the circumstances that lead to an accident, and if your kid's not strapped in, he's a projectile and will most likely be seriously injured or killed in a 7-10 mph accident.

Have you ever witnessed an unrestrained child be ejected from a car during a collision? Have you ever seen that child lying dead in the street? I have, and I'm telling you, the smallest likely risk of a child being injured lies in STRAPPING THEM IN!!!


----------



## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Nope. Never witnessed a child ejected from a car. Not after living more than five years in countries where not one single child was ever restrained.

Emotional appeals are fun, but don't represent the facts.


----------



## mammabear (Oct 21, 2002)

Quote:

I don't think that reducing the risk of injury and death by 71% is minor at all.Considering most accidents happen close to home, I don't think that "a quick trip to the store" is acceptable. You can NOT avoid all accidents. You can't control who else is on the road with you. You can't control how much alcohol they've had in the middle of the day, or who's too busy changing CD's to see you. A child's life is worth too much IMO to just be so blase about it.

ITA


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

So what you're saying is that most accidents occur on long trips, at night, so your quick daytime trip to the nearby store reduces your risk of an accident? *That* does not represent the facts. I didn't resort to an "emotional appeal" to underscore facts. I said what I did because I wholeheartedly believe that if you saw what I saw, or worse yet, if you were the mother of the child I saw, you would rethink whether it's worth it to you that your kids don't cry on that short trip to the store.

Wilma


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Never witnessed a child ejected from a car.
Have you ever cared for one that has? I assure you, you would have wished you'd pick up the phone and called.

The child almost always loses in this situation, they can get a fracture from and unrestrained accident in a parking lot.

Any risk, however minute, is too large when it comes to the life a child.


----------



## jillywilson (Nov 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
How many mothers who would never consider using CIO nevertheless strap their infants into car seats and let them scream? From the babies point of view, what is the difference? Crib or backseat of a car? With no human comfort? Letting babies cry hurts them. There's a risk in that, too.

If my girls ever start crying really hard, I pull over to consol them. With dd#1, I used to sit in the back seat while dh drove and did some contortionistic bf'ing. There's unfortunately no room for me back there with dd#2.

I think if the only choices you are giving yourself are to let them cry or let them be unrestrained, then maybe you shouldn't take them anywhere.

Back to the original post . . . (Hi Jen . . . I _know_ you from BBC.







) Good for you for having the nerve to say something!


----------



## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
How many mothers who would never consider using CIO nevertheless strap their infants into car seats and let them scream? From the babies point of view, what is the difference? Crib or backseat of a car? With no human comfort? Letting babies cry hurts them. There's a risk in that, too.

I think most of us try to avoid that situation, but not at the expense of driving with the child unrestrained. You can do other things...put off running errands until the other parent is home...or bring along a special CD of music your babe enjoys...or have a special toy the baby only plays with in the car seat...etc. I don't think car seats are like magic shields but it's a fact that other countries with less strict laws on traffic safety have much higher fatalities and serious injuries when accidents occur. It doesn't matter how cautious a driver you are, it only takes one other person being inattentive and reckless. You have no control over that. FWIW I have traveled all over the world and I am familiar with what cars/seat belts/roads are like in other countries. I am very grateful to have the safety features in the US that we do.


----------



## frand (May 8, 2004)

NO ONE who was in a car accident knew even 10 seconds before the accident that it was coming. You simply can't calculate the actual factual risk, only a statistical one. I just heard on the radio last week that Germany is imposing a speed limit on the Autobahn for the first time because there have been a number of horrific accidents and the one that caused the watershed involved a mother and young child who were killed when a teenager tailgated them. I don't think this is a case of emotions being inappropriate. The woman interviewed in Germany said she was not happy to see speed limits --perceived as "American" -- but that she realized they were needed.


----------



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

Hmmmm...well I certainly didn't expect this thread to head in this direction!

for the record, my cell was dead. BUT I have a great picture (nerd that I am) of the car where you can clearly see the little girl standing in the center of the car AS WELL AS their license plate. too bad I can't do anything with it!!!


----------



## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

Hi,

You did the right thing by saying something.

If you had NOT said something and that car had been in an accident a minute later, IMHO, you then would have had some culpability in the fate of that child.

For example, if a child was being beaten in teh apartment next door and I heard it and did NOT call the police, I believe that I am then partially responsible for it. We all have to look out for the most innocent members of our society who cannot look out for themselves.

With respect to the picture, you could always send it to the local police department. If you're nervous about the wacko-stalking factor, you could just send it anonymously.

Ciao!


----------



## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

I have absolutely called the police on drunk drivers, drivers falling asleep while driving, and cars with unrestrained children, as well as people who leave their *infants* in the car while they go into Safeway and _grocery shop_.

Do I feel bad about that? Not even a little bit. The "it's not my business" argument leaves me feeling so sad- if the children's own parents won't advocate for their safety, _someone has to._ I called CPS when the developmentally disabled boy was being abused by his mother. I called three times, I called his school after CPS did nothing and he was finally moved. I'd do it again today.

And I've been in an accident (but wasn't hurt, thanks to my exdh's excellent driving and foresight) with a drunk driver. I will call *every time*.

I called the police yesterday when some kids were racing around my neighborhood at 2x the speed limit (at LEAST) on a dirt bike and I almost wiped them out when they crossed my lane to turn.

I don't call the police on a daily basis (although now this post sounds like I'm on a first name basis!), but when it's an issue of safety, I do not hesitate.

Paranoid North American and no problem with that....


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know why I'm even venturing in here, but here goes . . .

I am a nut about my kids being in carseats. I have never seen a kid out of their carseat, and would be very worried if I did. I would also have said something, but I probably wouldn't have called her a bad mom. In my experience, that just makes people turn a deaf ear to what you have to say.

I also would not have called the police, because like another poster mentioned, you just don't know what their situation is, and I would hate to see my personal paranoia turn someone's life upside down. Yes, I know, an accident with an unrestrained child also turns their life upside down, but I still would not feel comfortable calling the police. I personally see a difference between a child being beaten and a child not being in a carseat. I think both are horrific, but at some point there is a line where one becomes a parental choice that I don't agree with.

I do have to say that a part of me agrees with Juniper Joy. Again, I NEVER allow my kids to be out of their carseats, and I can't tell you how many hours I have spent sitting in parking lots or on the side of the road consoling a baby, as I also never let my kids CIO in the carseat. I don't care how late I am or where I have to be. But I can see her point, because it's kind of how I feel about rear facing carseats after a year or so. I know the statistics say it's safer, but I just feel like I have to take ds's sanity and emotional health into consideration too.

I'm not in this conversation for the long haul - I am 13 days post partum and this is my first non birth/newborn/diapering post, so have some mercy. I just wanted to say that I can see where Juniper Joy is coming from.


----------



## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
Hi,

If you had NOT said something and that car had been in an accident a minute later, IMHO, you then would have had some culpability in the fate of that child.

For example, if a child was being beaten in teh apartment next door and I heard it and did NOT call the police, I believe that I am then partially responsible for it.










T I think what you're referencing here is called depraved indifference and can be treated as a criminal action. At least that's how it works on Law and Order.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Take the picture to the police department. They may be able to mail them a ticket, just like a picture at a stop light.

-Heather


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I'd much rather spend 45 minutes in a Turkey Hill parking lot than consider letting either of my children in the car without a carseat. We take some long trips, and Rivkah often needs to nurse at some point even if I nurse her just before we leave. I don't let either of my kids cry in the carseat, but they both know that if they're in the car and it's moving that they're going to be strapped in. My son's life has already been saved by a carseat once this year. I can't imagine driving without him strapped in, and I don't think he could, either.


----------



## greymama (May 30, 2003)

I would have called the police in a heartbeat. There is no situation in these parents lives that justifies allowing their child to stand in the car, they didn't even try to use a regular seat belt. If money is an issue, free or discounted car seats are available from your local hospitals and other resources. There is no excuse for not protecting your child. Automobile accidents are the number one cause of death and disability in children over the age of one who are improperly restrained—that's a fact.


----------



## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greymama*
I would have called the police in a heartbeat. There is no situation in these parents lives that justifies allowing their child to stand in the car, they didn't even try to use a regular seat belt. If money is an issue, free or discounted car seats are available from your local hospitals and other resources. There is no excuse for not protecting your child. Automobile accidents are the number one cause of death and disability in children over the age of one who are improperly restrained-that's a fact.

So, why not mention the free/reduced car seats to the mama, in a nice way, instead of instantly assuming the worst? Being snarky/mean/judgemental/involving authorities often causes people to be resentful. It doesn't change their behavior.

When I approach a parent, I always assume that they love their kids and want the best for them, and try to frame the discussion that way. To do otherwise is disrespectful, and, more importantly, unproductive. It also becomes easier to evaluate the real situation when people aren't being completely defensive. I realize that this was a seconds-long interaction, but calling someone a bad mother is almost never going to help anyone--especially the child.

How would you feel if someone called CPS because they saw you nursing your toddler, and equated it with sexual abuse? (I am not equating riding unrestrained with nursing a toddler, just pointing out that many parenting practices endorsed by MDC are considered strange and damaging by others)

A little respect, kindness, and communication between parents would do more to help children than all the calls to CPS in the world.

--Deirdre


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, MilkFairy, I admire your passion. I would probably WANT to say what you did, but I don't have the guts. I think I would have been sorely tempted to call the police, and I could care less what their "story" is. That child's life is worth more than whatever excuse they have for putting it at risk.

As for JJ's point, all I can say is noboby is forcing you to drive a car. If your kids are that miserable in their seats, take the darned bus. I get tired of hearing about those who "need" their cars, when millions of people in this country manage to get by without one.

IMO, it is not worth putting your child at risk: and I'm not appealing to "emotion" here either, the facts speak for themselves - the risks are tremendous, and if you spent a few weeks in an ER (like sweetbaby has) you would see the real picture. God help your conscience if anything ever happened to your children when you thought the risks were low enough. I agree with your basic message that sometimes paranoia outweighs reason...but do not think this applies to car seat safety. Countries without seatbelt laws do not have the same sort of traffic dynamics we do here in North America, so I hardly think they are comparable.


----------



## Mrs Dimples (Apr 17, 2004)

As we are all so fond of quoting in reference to "but all my neghbor's kids are formula fed and they started on three-course steak dinners at 4 weeks old and they're perfectly healthy"...

*the plural of anecdote is not data*.

Just because I or anyone else has never witnessed a child in a car accident unrestrained doesn't mean the risk is not great and that a very simple solution should not be taken advantage of.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I can't believe someone would be so irresposible to not put their child in a car seat (That goes for Juniper Joy too). Most accidents occur within 10 minutes of home. Don't believe it? When my daughter was 5 months and my son was 2 yrs 4 months there was a freak snow storm in April and I was in an accident 3 minutes from home. We spun around 3 times and slid down an embankment and smashed into a fence. I had severe whiplash. My babies were okay ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CAR SEATS. Can you imagine what would have happened to them if they hadn't been? They would likely have been killed. Shame on you.


----------



## jenaniah (Nov 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Nope. Never witnessed a child ejected from a car. Not after living more than five years in countries where not one single child was ever restrained.

Emotional appeals are fun, but don't represent the facts.

I have seen a baby ejected from a car (under 1) and 1 whose parent was holding it smashed into the dash board...it is a terrible terrible thing. Had those babies been in car seats they both would be alive (the one that was smashed into the dash board was only in an accident involving 2 cars going less then 10 miles/hour each in a praking lot.) The parents in both situations were beyond consolation b/c they knew their actions had caused their babies to die. Just b/c you never saw it happen doesn't mean it doesn't. Also the fact that car seats have reduced deaths by 71% is a fact, not an emotional appeal.


----------



## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Juniper Joy - I most sincerely and fervently hope that you never ever have to eat your blase and naive words. I hope that you never have a car accident with an unrestrained child in it. But i do hope that if you do practice this reprehensible behavior that you get caught for it.

In this case, the risks are hardly 'minor'.


----------



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Mrs Dimples said:


> *the plural of anecdote is not data*.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

*the plural of anecdote is not data*....this phrase is quickly becoming my pet peeve...
Oh my. Well that quote is from my signature a while back. I read it in a book and liked it...I was a bit flattered that it seems to be making its way around the board.

Personally, I would hope that people deciding not to vax are basing it on scientific studies and not anecdotal evidence. There is data out there supporting both a pro- and anti-vax POV...the jury isn't "in" on that issue yet, so parents must perform their own critical review of the literature, and not everybody will come to the same conclusion. However, things like car safety, smoking, and the benefits of breastfeeding are now considered unequivocal, because the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of those issues. But even if they are going just on "life experience", refusing vaccines is not illegal. Having an unrestrained child is. IMO, the argument presented by JJ is no different than that presented by people who drive without insurance....in both cases I say again: you can't deal with the rules? Ride the bus.

Quote:

In fact, many posters are arguing based on what they have seen and experienced - dead babies.etc.
True. And I agree even those stories are anecdotal in nature. But they are being used to illustrate that which is already known to be factual, as opposed to being used in the absense of data...


----------



## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

In Florida, they have a hotline you can call if ou see a child not in a car seat. I think it is run by the sheriffs office. They will send the family an info pack on the hazards of not car seating, the fines involved, etc.
While I dont think you sould assume the worst, I also dont think many parents are going to get a comment like that, and say "OMG you are right!! Thank you!! I had no idea!! I will run right our and get a car seat!!" It might help if it came from an official person.


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollykatsmom*
I realize that this was a seconds-long interaction, but calling someone a bad mother is almost never going to help anyone--especially the child.
--Deirdre

Dollars to donuts - when that woman put her head on her pillow that night, she was thinking about that comment. Sure she was angry and indignant for a while, but when it comes down to it, she was thinking.....

Not that I agree with attacking people or making assumptions, IME, kindness and education work better. But sheesh, when you see somebody acting that way, it's irritating! My sister yells comments out the window like that. When she sees someone with a kid in their lap, she always walks up; is very sweet and acts very interested, and her in best, most considerate voice, says "I just LOVE your airbag." The people are usually smiling until the words sink in. It's funny







:

I don't confront. I just call the police. In general conversation, I educate. This coming from the woman who has a 10 year old in a booster....


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
When she sees someone with a kid in their lap, she always walks up; is very sweet and acts very interested, and her in best, most considerate voice, says "I just LOVE your airbag." The people are usually smiling until the words sink in. It's funny







:

OMG! I don't know whether to laugh or uke.. that's really awful!


----------



## sparkle&shine (Feb 23, 2004)

Quote:

In Florida, they have a hotline you can call if ou see a child not in a car seat. I think it is run by the sheriffs office. They will send the family an info pack on the hazards of not car seating, the fines involved, etc.
Ditto in AZ.


----------



## because (Sep 11, 2003)

I understand the argument that we don't know what is going on in that family's life, but I can't fathom a scenario where the child should be punished by being injured or killed in a collision because of it. I mean, even if the mom were running from an abusive partner _right at that moment_, the people in the back didn't have to stand the kid in the middle, KWIM?

WakeUpMama - ditto what you said. Thanks.








T lab - I've never heard "dollars to donuts." I like the way it sounds but what does it mean?


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

In fact, many posters are arguing based on what they have seen and experienced - dead babies
So because someone hasn't seen a dead baby nor cared for a critically injured child, that means that its OK to not buckle? Only nurses, doctors, trauma surgeons and paramedics buckle their kids up?

To refer to piglets last post, my experience directly correlates to data, therefore supporting it.

If you do not buckle your child and get into an accident, your child's chances of dying or being critically injured are greatly increased. period. why anyone would risk it, then tie CIO into it, is ridiculous.

And yes, *I* have cared for dead and mangled kids. Yup, I've zipped the bag of an unrestrained child ejected in a rollover. Dad walked away without a scratch, and the car had little damage, but the child was gone. Just like that. in an instant. And if anyone here has a problem with me stating that, let me know.


----------



## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I have to agree with OceanBaby.

While I strongly enforce the carseat rules and laws in our family, I can see reasons why the child might not be in her car seat.

Remember that most of our parents were never in car seats. In fact, both of Moo's grandmothers were commenting on how it's good that the kids are safer, but they hate that they can't comfort the children the way they did in their day.

BTW- the reason why most accidents occur near the home is because most the the driving is done near the home... (Think about it)

And depraved indifference would apply to the people in the car who were not the driver. It does not apply to a person who saw it and didn't report it to the police..


----------



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
So because someone hasn't seen a dead baby nor cared for a critically injured child, that means that its OK to not buckle? Only nurses, doctors, trauma surgeons and paramedics buckle their kids up?

To refer to piglets last post, my experience directly correlates to data, therefore supporting it.

If you do not buckle your child and get into an accident, your child's chances of dying or being critically injured are greatly increased. period. why anyone would risk it, then tie CIO into it, is ridiculous.

And yes, *I* have cared for dead and mangled kids. Yup, I've zipped the bag of an unrestrained child ejected in a rollover. Dad walked away without a scratch, and the car had little damage, but the child was gone. Just like that. in an instant. And if anyone here has a problem with me stating that, let me know.

Read my friggin' post please. I was saying that if you feel ancedotal evidence is valid support for an argument (and this board is full of acedotal arguments) you then can't dismiss someone else's ancedotal evidence with a pithy phrase ("the plural of ancedote is not data").

And no, I don't have a problem with your dead baby ancedotes; in fact, I am a big fan of ancedotal evidence and think much truth is discovered in lived experience and narrative. I think BOTH someone's experience living in a counrties without car seat laws AND someone experience trying to save babies thrown from cars is valid and useful in a discussion of what to do when you see a mom driving with a kid not in a car seat.

Again, ALL I was saying is that you can't selectively allow ancedotal evidence in - allowing it in where it suits your purpose (in our stuggles to forego scientifically supported medical procedures like vacs and eye ointment) and dismiss it where it doesn't.


----------



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*

To refer to piglets last post, my experience directly correlates to data, therefore supporting it.


I first heard that pithy little line when it was used against me in a vax debate. The preponderance of scientific data supports the safety of vaccines. The experinces in the vax forum (vaccines and autism) or in pregnancy forum (i.e. Vitimin K and jaundice) does NOT "directly correlate" most of the scientific data that is out there.

My point is not that ancedotal reasoning is bad, just that it is hypocritical to cite it when it helps make your case against the "data" out there but then turn around and shoot someone down (with a cutsie line) for doing the same.


----------



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Call the "Buckle Up, Baby!" hotline number 1-800-505-BABY

Law Enforcement Agencies nationwide are setting up checkpoints and other measures to help enforce the child restraint law.

How The Program Works

Persons may call the 1-800 number and leave the following information:

1. Vehicle License and State,

2. City observed in,

3. Where child was sitting in vehicle.

They will send info packet to the registered owners of the car.


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because*







T lab - I've never heard "dollars to donuts." I like the way it sounds but what does it mean?









T too!

Hey!

It means 'I betcha' or I'd bet the farm or If I had a hair on my you know what.... or you bet your bottom dollar - You get the idea!

I don't know where I heard it or how. It's one of those phrases I've just always known.....


----------



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
Call the "Buckle Up, Baby!" hotline number 1-800-505-BABY

Law Enforcement Agencies nationwide are setting up checkpoints and other measures to help enforce the child restraint law.

How The Program Works

Persons may call the 1-800 number and leave the following information:

1. Vehicle License and State,

2. City observed in,

3. Where child was sitting in vehicle.

They will send info packet to the registered owners of the car.


_*THANK YOU!!! I'll call them in the morning!!! you rock!*_


----------



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

_I realize that this was a seconds-long interaction, but calling someone a bad mother is almost never going to help anyone--especially the child.
--Deirdre

Dollars to donuts - when that woman put her head on her pillow that night, she was thinking about that comment. Sure she was angry and indignant for a while, but when it comes down to it, she was thinking....._

What I said was "you are _being_ a bad mother by not putting your daughter in a carseat" I was very specific...she may be mother of the year in every other aspect of her daughter's life, but in this instance, I felt (and still feel) that she was not acting in her daughter's best interest...therefore she was being a bad mother.


----------



## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Oh my goodness, have you ever seen what happens to kids who fall out of trees? Brokens necks, arms, legs, compound fractures galore! Have you ever seen the kinds of accidents that happen to children riding bicycles/rollerblades/skateboards/scooters? Torn ligaments, broken collarbones, dislocated shoulders, etc. etc. etc.

Kids can get hurt doing lots of things. Are you never going to let your kids do anything dangerous?

Would I let my kids ride unrestrained in a freakin' snowstorm? Or on a hundred mile an hour highway? Of course not! But at ten o'clock in the morning, when there is not another car in sight, and Grandma drove by on her way to our house, did I let my kids hop in her car and bounce in the backseat unrestrained for a ten minute car ride? You bet your butt, I did.

Why? Because I know what a statistical risk is. And I can evaluate that risk against the likelihood of it happening. Neither I, nor my husband's mother can remember when ANY child was killed in a traffic accident in our town, and if one had been, it would have made front page news.Maybe our "traffic dynamics" are a little different.

And Piglet, for your information, we just recently got a car. When June was little she hated the car with a passion, so we all started walking and taking the bus and SOLD OUR CAR. Don't be too snooty, sister. You don't know my story, so don't be so presumptuous.


----------



## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I first heard that pithy little line when it was used against me in a vax debate. The preponderance of scientific data supports the safety of vaccines.









T but I just have to disagree. It's a matter of extreme debate whether scientific data supports vaccination. I have worked in the field of vaccine research and compliance, and I have experience analyzing statistics, and I can tell you that a lot of the "data" supporting vax doesn't hold up. My decision to not vax has nothing to do with stories about kids who died or kids with autism, since I don't personally know any. It has everything to do with the fact that vaccines have never been proven safe and effective, and that there are highly credible theories about long-term damage (asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancer) caused by vaccines.


----------



## dewlady (Jul 8, 2004)

even if i get slack for it, here goes...

juniperjoy...i agree with you totally..


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Why? Because I know what a statistical risk is. And I can evaluate that risk against the likelihood of it happening.

Well, I guess this is just one of those "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" situations that people so often joke about. Only this time it's not funny. Relying on the hope that no one hits you is not a logical way to keep your kids safe. You're kidding yourself if you think you can control whether or not you're involved in an accident.

JuniperJoy, I hope that the next time you allow your kids to ride unrestrained that you are ticketed so fast that your head spins ... although unfortunately, I don't think a ticket would make much of an impact on you. I think you are being negligent and recklessly endangering your kids, and those things are crimes.

Wilma


----------



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Juniper (and Dewlady) -

I actually disagree with you. Putting a kid in a car seat is such a small thing and can make such a difference in an accident.

That said, I find myself sympathizing with your POV somehow (not sure exactly how), but you guys are totally going to be creamed here. Know your audience a little before you post . . .


----------



## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

I was one of those abused kids in the early 70s. My mother used a car seat from the moment I was released from the hospital. The nurse told her she was being a bad mother and how the most secure place to be was in her arms. Thankfully that nurse ranted about what a horrible person mom was at the nurses station and mom's doc over heard, reading her the riot act. When mom asked the doc about it at my next check up, he told her it was the best thing she could do and thanked her. I can not be unbuckled in a seat, it just isn't natural feeling for me.

We lived in the UK in the early 90s when they started a buckle up campaign. It blew my mind that kids were unrestrained. It just seems so simple for me. You want the best for your kids, what does it matter what you feed them if you aren't going to keep them as safe as you can?

My kids are never not buckled. Never. DS3 can't even sit in the van in our driveway while I clean it and not be buckled. (his choice) Thankfully I have never had a screamer, but if they NEVER have the option of being unbuckled in the vehicle, then they don't know differently. I have rearrainged things if a kid didn't want to go, but being unbuckled is not an option. I am the horrible mom who won't let my teens ride with another mom with out a seatbelt. I don't let them ride in pick up truck beds- even with a topper. I can't protect my kids from everything, but some things I can control and do.

And no, I have never known or seen an injured kid from an accident. DH's cousins were killed in a car accident unrestrained when he was a kid, but the aunt died also so I guess that doesn't count.


----------



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

_*shelbean91*_ -FYI the 800 # you gave me is "not within the calling scope of this area"

DARN IT! I have been all over the Dallas police dept's website trying to find a link, someone to email this pic to, and NOTHING! How can it be so not a big deal here???


----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

:LOL

JuniperJoy, don't let it get to you.










I was once called "CPS-bait" by a whole posse of folks here because I admitted that my children ride the NYC Transit Authority buses almost daily without carseats or seat beslts and are not restrained (well, except for my arm/hand behind a tushie) ... was called other things, too.










:LOL

And welcome to MDC ...


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

JuniperJoy

Just as long as you understand that a car accident isn't the only risk you are taking. Because IF your kids do get into a car accident unrestrained and they are injured, you will probably be thrown in jail, and the surviving child "if there is one" will be taken away from you. Because child endangerment is illegal...and if a child is injured as a result it's a pretty serious crime. My ex-husband wasn't keeping our daughter properly restrained, and she was riding a quad runner without a helmet......The judge told him that if he heard of it happening again he'd give me sole physical custody and visitation woudl be at my discretion.

-Heather


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Don't be too snooty, sister. You don't know my story, so don't be so presumptuous.
I didn't think she was being snooty. Well spoken, articulate and intelligent, but not snooty.

Quote:

Because IF your kids do get into a car accident unrestrained and they are injured, you will probably be thrown in jail,
Yup.









If parents want to take risks with their own life, then fine. But when you put other people at risk, including children who are unable to make an informed decision, then you are wrong. any risk is too large when it comes to the health and safety of children. It is our responsibility to keep them safe.


----------



## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Milk-Fairy**
_*shelbean91*_ -FYI the 800 # you gave me is "not within the calling scope of this area"

DARN IT! I have been all over the Dallas police dept's website trying to find a link, someone to email this pic to, and NOTHING! How can it be so not a big deal here???


That number listed was for Californina. I couldn't find any national number.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/contact.htm

This doesn't have quite what you are looking for, but maybe another place to look?


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

merpk: how would you restrain a child on a bus/subway? they don't even have seatbelts...

Buses are huge vehicles, and the chances of them being in a collision with enough impact to throw children out the window are very, very slim. You'd basically have to be sideswiped by a semi-trailer...that's why restraints aren't required by law on buses, and why they make a great alternative to cars if you are unable to operate your car safely.


----------



## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

Oh yeah, and back to the OP, if I had a picture I would have sent it/dropped it off, had I had a cell phone I would have called the non emergancy police line. It isn't my place to judge- that is what the agencies are for. If they feel it is ok for a person to break the law for whatever reason, that is their call.


----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
merpk: how would you restrain a child on a bus/subway? they don't even have seatbelts...


Ayup. I agree with you, mama.









Which is what I was pointing out to J'J ... the POV here is sometimes very ... um ... blinkered.

Said with affection.


----------



## fayking (Jun 28, 2004)

my cousin was seriously injured (head trauma etc) when my aunt had an car accident when he was 6 weeks old. he was in crib in the backseat...crib was belted to the car but he wasnt. he was thrown through the window and ended up face first in a pool of water. only the fast thinking of another driver saved his life. (my aunt was trapped in the car) he has lasting problems and a huge scar on his face. (he is now 15) my aunt never forgave herself (she died of cancer a few years later)

not using a child seat is plain dangerous...


----------



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Sorry- I thought it was a national number. I know it's in AZ.

What I did when I saw something as outrageous as what you saw was to call my police dept's non-emergency number. They took the license plate number, I told them where the car was and where it was heading, but I doubt anyone pulled them over. It was right on the edge from one city to the next. They took the info and also gave me that 800# to call.

I just wanted someone else to know what was happening. (I saw a kid, not more than 2 or 3, jumping on the drivers lap while there was an adult in the passengers seat and in the back seat, next to an infant seat.) If there had been an accident and I didn't call anyone, I would have felt awful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Milk-Fairy**
_*shelbean91*_ -FYI the 800 # you gave me is "not within the calling scope of this area"

DARN IT! I have been all over the Dallas police dept's website trying to find a link, someone to email this pic to, and NOTHING! How can it be so not a big deal here???


----------



## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

I can not fathom people giving thumbs up in support of people who are criminally neglecting their kids. I really thought the women here were educated and intelligent. It makes me so angry to see such utter disreguard for children's lives that I am seeing red as I type this.


----------



## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*
I can not fathom people giving thumbs up in support of people who are criminally neglecting their kids. I really thought the women here were educated and intelligent. It makes me so angry to see such utter disreguard for children's lives that I am seeing red as I type this.

Thanks, I was going to say pretty much the same thing only out of my mouth it would have been much nastier.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Milk-Fairy**
I just have to share...

Ordinarily I wouldn't do much but fume, but this time I pulled alongside at a red light, honked my horn, and when they rolled their window down I proceeded to tell them that what they were doing is illegal, that her baby needs to be in a carseat, and that she was being a bad parent. All she said was "thanks" and rolled the window up and sped away.

AGH! At least I said something

Although I commend you for speaking up for the protection of the little one, I do NOT think this was the best way to go about it. In this world, you don't know WHO you are encountering. You could have encountered some dangerous psychos who could have been so angry with you after your comment that they decided to follow YOU home and attack YOU and YOUR family.

All I am saying-be careful. Next time, for your own safety just get the license tag # and if you have a cell phone call 911...it is that simple.

When I read what you did...my heart started pounding for you


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Would I let my kids ride unrestrained in a freakin' snowstorm? Or on a hundred mile an hour highway? Of course not! But at ten o'clock in the morning, when there is not another car in sight, and Grandma drove by on her way to our house, did I let my kids hop in her car and bounce in the backseat unrestrained for a ten minute car ride? You bet your butt, I did.

I am going to take a stab at this and say you're kids probably don't like the car seat because it isn't something they have been expected to be in. If they were in it from the start and knew it was what was expected it would be less of an arguement (I know you can't explain it to an infant). I have had my share of "I hate the carseat" moments, but my rule is everyone buckle up or the car goes nowhere.

Why? Because I know what a statistical risk is. And I can evaluate that risk against the likelihood of it happening. Neither I, nor my husband's mother can remember when ANY child was killed in a traffic accident in our town, and if one had been, it would have made front page news.Maybe our "traffic dynamics" are a little different.

I would hate for your child to become the one on the front page. The arguement that noone can remember when it happened makes people entirely too relaxed. The fact is your kids may never be hurt, but they could very well be the next fatality. Why risk it?


----------



## Baby Hopes (Jul 15, 2004)

An interesting link I found about statistical risks in _general_. Check it out. It's interesting to look at. Having said that I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally place themselves or their children in a situation that _statistically_ raises their chance of death in an accident.

I agree with the readers here that talk about always buckling in the automobile. If you never ride unbuckled, you don't know what your missing. And frankly how distracting to the driver would that be to have small children climbing around?

One last thing. Didn't anyone catch that small portion of Oprah where she had that mom on the show who spent X amount of time in jail because she willingly refused to buckle her child and then (unfortunately) got in an accident? To be perfectly honest I was sympathetic for the loss... but my heart really was angry at how needlessly the loss happened. I certainly was not sympathetic about the fact the mother spent time behind bars. Frankly there is enough literature out there that the excuses used for not restraining ones young folk are moot.


----------



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
North Americans act like any risk is bad, which is obviously a very paranoic way to live. There is always a risk. Evaluating that risk is part of life.

I see what you are saying, but it does seem that world views often differ based on religious beliefs. Some people have a fatalistic view of life and don't think they have any control over their destiny. I don't really believe in fate, the will of God, what have you. So if I chose to let my daughter ride in a car without a carseat and something happens, it is fully my responsibility. I evaluate the risk and I personally feel like driving a motorized vehicle is pretty dangerous in general. I want to do everything I can to offset that risk. I guess what I am saying is I have evaluated, and I come down on the other side.

Not that long ago here, there was a family 8 driving in a minivan. Five of them were children and all but one were under the age of 6. One of them was 9 months. None of them was restrained and they were hit by a drunken driver. The father was driving the minivan, and he lived with minor injuries. The 2 year old was critcally injured and all the rest died. One person told me that it wouldn't have mattered if the children were restrained or not, as bad as the accident was. I felt that the opposite was true!

I've been in some minor accidents as have others in my family. One of my sisters was hit broadside by a car and the side of the car crushed in. Her children were all in carseats or seatbelts, but still were injured, except for the one on the side farthest from impact. I've known people who were killed in car accidents. I guess that is why I feel that the risk is great enough.

I do know some people who don't use carseats or seatbelts with their children. They are into non-coercion/TCS. It is very frustrating when one of their children is critical of some of *my* choices, like allowing my daughter to eat sugar, or using a carphone. They don't seem aware of all the issues behind not using a seatbelt, and I really have to bite my tongue--I'm thinking now that maybe I shouldn't. I have never expressed concern with their children not using a seatbelt, because I am not a witness to what goes on inside the car while they are actually driving. My daughter is 5 now and says that we've never gotten into an accident, so that means we aren't going to. I hope she is right!


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amywillo*
I do know some people who don't use carseats or seatbelts with their children. They are into non-coercion/TCS.










I really don't understand this idea... TCS isn't about letting your kid kill themselves, or about letting them have their way all the time; it's about giving them the information they need to make good decisions and treating them with respect. If an adult got into my car and expected me to drive without putting on their seatbelt I'd tell them the same thing that I say to Eli: This is not an option while I'm driving this vehicle. Seatbelts/carseats are for your protection and they are absolutely necessary. I'll say it again: Adhering to a philosophy like TCS does not make you exempt from parental responsibility.


----------



## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

I just wanted to follow-up and let you all know that I finally heard back from the TX DPS and there IS a program specifically set aside for this kind of violation-the Please Be Seated Program. I left a message with the license plate and where I saw it happen, and they will contact the family.


----------



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Thanks for the update. They might not change their behavior, but at least you did what you could.


----------



## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs Dimples*
*the plural of anecdote is not data*.
.

Ooh, I like that!!!


----------



## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

I am a total car seat FREAK. I AGONISED over letting my slightly taller than average 11yo (at the time) sit in the front seat with an air bag (with the seat all the way back and the seat belt on)

I don't understand how people can let their dc become missle's. I was driving down a VERY busy road the other day (2 lanes each way and a center turn lane) A woman was sitting in the passenger seat of a new truck (can you say air bag???







) cooing nose to nose with her approximatly 3 week old baby. I almost had a heart attack. The light tured green and the driver of the truck FLOORED it







. I never had time to react. I couldn't keep up to get down the licence plate # (I wasn't going to put my own children at risk), if I had my wits about me I would have screamed out the window at her.


----------



## Miny20 (Jun 24, 2004)

I let my child scream when I put her into the car seat. I supply her with toys, I keep a few in the front with me, and toss her one as she's thrown all of her supply on the floor. This is just ONE OF THOSE THINGS that she needs to learn MUST TAKE PLACE; When you get into the car, you get into the car seat PERIOD.

Maybe I'm a bad person, but I wouldn't do anything about someone who doesn't bother with basic safety measures. My husband and I have a saving... 'Don't try to stop them, their stupidity will clear their lines out of the gene pool.'

Amen, I say. Let that woman kill herself AND her child with her own stupidity, then, perhaps we won't have to deal with her genes being passed on.

Concrete proof that Darwin was on to something.


----------



## Miny20 (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*
I can not fathom people giving thumbs up in support of people who are criminally neglecting their kids. I really thought the women here were educated and intelligent. It makes me so angry to see such utter disreguard for children's lives that I am seeing red as I type this.

I'm with you. I'm completely blown away that people can say that there are certain circumstances under which your child need not be safe. If you ALWAYS expect your child to be safe... and implement that rules to ensure that, then you WILL NOT HAVE TO FIGHT WITH THEM every time you get into the car.

I swear, it's like telling your teenage daughter that she shouldn't have sex with boys who have already had sex (as virgins may be less likely to have an STD), or that you shouldn't have sex for the first two weeks out of your cycle.. because you're less likely to get pregnant that way. Why pass ignorance on to your children? You can never-ever know what other people are doing--or have done--and there's always that chance you'll run into a drunk driver, a new driver who mistakes one pedal for the other, or ANYTHING that I can't begin to fathom. WHY WHY WHY teach your child there are exceptions to VERY IMPORTANT RULES!!!!?


----------



## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miny20*
Let that woman kill herself AND her child with her own stupidity, then, perhaps we won't have to deal with her genes being passed on.
















I've agreed with the majority on this thread (buckle kids up every time) but I CAN NOT believe you said this! These are children. Innocent children who don't have a choice or don't have the ability to understand the consequences and make the *right* choice. Because they're parents are morons then they should have to suffer???

My DS's dad is a no good druggie loser. Does that mean I should *get rid* of my DS on the chance he could turn out like his dad? I would think teaching him to be a better person and make better decisions would be a more appropriate option.

I am stunned.

To the OP... I'm glad you called and got something done. Hopefully those parents will buckle the kiddo up next time.


----------



## Melda (Mar 27, 2003)

Ugh i cant stand it when people dont use carseats for their children. The law in florida (i just asked at the DMV for a new book) now states a child 5 AND UNDER has to be in a carseat. Alot of people i know by time the child is 3 or 4 they are in a regular seatbelt. My children will remain in their Britax Marathons until they reach the height, weight and age limit or until i have to buy a new one because theirs expired. I dont know why people dont think more of their children. Another pet peeve of mine is people who use seats incorectly or old and outdated seats when if you are that poor you can go to the fire dept. and get a new one.


----------



## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

toh but here's a link to a national program (international now, too, i think) for child car safety:

Quote:

"We're only going to the grocery store."

"He'll stop crying if I hold him on my lap."

"She thinks she's too old."

Do any of these sound familiar? They're all common reasons parents give for not putting their children in appropriate child safety seats or safety belts. Unfortunately, unrestrained or improperly restrained children are far more likely to be injured, to suffer more severe injuries, and to die in the event of a crash.

Motor vehicle crashes remain the leading cause of unintentional injury-related death. In 2001, 1,579 child occupants ages 14 and under died in motor vehicle crashes, and in 2002 an estimated 227,000 were injured. Even if you're a careful driver, you can't control other drivers' behavior or eliminate the possibility of a crash. You can, though, greatly reduce the risk that your children will be seriously injured or killed . . . {more}
(long but says it is ok to share for info purposes)

http://www.safekids.org/tier2_rl.cfm?folder_id=170

you can search for safety coalitions in each state to help spread the word about seat belt safety.

about parents refusing to protect their children from death and injury ... for these parents, it's not about the children, its about what it is easier on them, the parents...


----------



## 2BMamaof3 (Oct 13, 2003)

T

so what about this scenario:

A baby is crying in the backseat. Mama pulls off into the parking lot of XYZ store and proceeds to nurse baby in the front seat, unrestrained WITH an airbag.

?????

Abby, who is very intrigued by how we all are so right all the time


----------



## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2BMamaof3*







T

A baby is crying in the backseat. Mama pulls off into the parking lot of XYZ store and proceeds to nurse baby in the front seat, unrestrained WITH an airbag.

If it were a newer truck that you can turn the airbags off with a key. ok.
If not, not much better than anyone else. I used to work for a car dealership and older style airbags DID go off for the heck of it. We had a scrapped car and set one off just to see what it was like.

I have tinted windows so I climb in the back.

What about that mama who was nursing down the freeway with her baby in her lap because it was legal in her state? (but not the state she was driving through) She would not pull over because it would slow her down.


----------



## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2BMamaof3*







T
so what about this scenario:
A baby is crying in the backseat. Mama pulls off into the parking lot of XYZ store and proceeds to nurse baby in the front seat, unrestrained WITH an airbag.
?????

If it was a car like ours, with the backseat full of carseats so there is truly no room for mama to breastfeed anywhere but in the front, I'd rather she have pulled over and parked to breastfeed in the front seat rather than trying to prop a bottle in the back and keep going. Hopefully it is a newer model vehicle where the front passanger airbag can be shut off. There are plenty of valid reasons for them to stay in the car to breastfeed too - needing the A/C because its dangerously humid outside, privacy, safety, etc.

Quote:

What about that mama who was nursing down the freeway with her baby in her lap because it was legal in her state? (but not the state she was driving through) She would not pull over because it would slow her down.








:














Now that's just insane and endangering her baby, herself, and every innocent driver and passenger on the road with her! I'm sorry, but there is just NOWHERE you really have to get to SO fast that you would need to do that.


----------



## Melda (Mar 27, 2003)

ok ... I have been driving down the road and have pulled over and parked in a parking lot and got DD out to feed her because she was screaming and in the parking lot without traffic. Yes the car was running because i live in florida and we need a/c ... I never thought i was doing anything wrong or unsafe by doing this. Am i wrong?


----------



## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magemom*
What about that mama who was nursing down the freeway with her baby in her lap because it was legal in her state? (but not the state she was driving through) She would not pull over because it would slow her down.









That was a mama driving from Michigan through Ohio (or was it Indiana? One of those two). She claims that she did it because he husband (who wasn't in the car but she called him to ask permission) wouldn't let her pull over. She was on her way to her mom's house and she *couldn't* be late, accourding to her husband. In court she claimed it was her religious belief to do what her husband said. He told her she couldn't stop so she just propped baby in her lap to nurse while driving. I can't remember the outcome of it though


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Melda*
ok ... I have been driving down the road and have pulled over and parked in a parking lot and got DD out to feed her because she was screaming and in the parking lot without traffic. Yes the car was running because i live in florida and we need a/c ... I never thought i was doing anything wrong or unsafe by doing this. Am i wrong?

I'm confused too; I regularly nursed in the front seat of a parked car....


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

The woman from Michigan received a citation, I believe, for violating carseat laws. As I recall, that was it. There was a huge thread about this here, but I can't remember if it was in breastfeeding or TAO; maybe both.









When I pull off the road to nurse, if I'm driving I get back into the driver's seat and pull it all the way back and down. If Mike is driving, I do it in the front passenger seat which is always all the way back and down. Airbags can, on rare occasion, deploy for no reason at all. My impression is that it's more likely to happen in older vehicles, but you can't be 100% certain about anything so be as safe as possible. Our vehicle is relatively new, so I don't worry about it too much. I feel much safer pulling off into a parking lot to nurse than I would if I kept driving while we nursed.

And yes, if the weather permits it, I turn the car off; if it's really hot or humid, though, I don't.


----------



## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

I have also calle the police- although I doubt anything was done, knowing this town. It was when I saw a child ON THE DRIVER'S LAP, hand on steering wheel on the "main street" in town.


----------



## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I was once called "CPS-bait" by a whole posse of folks here because I admitted that my children ride the NYC Transit Authority buses almost daily without carseats or seat beslts and are not restrained (well, except for my arm/hand behind a tushie) ... was called other things, too.
Are you serious? :LOL People should see the taxis we run around in sometimes! And the marshroutkas (mini-buses)!

And BelovedBird, I've seen that, too.







But I also see 10 people with babies and kids piled into a Lada.


----------



## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

Holy crap! I'd have called the cops too!

I admit, I USED to think carseats were annoying and a nuisance. Then on the way home from a family trip, I rolled my van 7 times going 75 MPH. Yeah, color me converted. I got a concussion, DH had a shoulder seperation, but there wasn't anything wrong with DD other than a majorly poopy diaper. I can't hardly blame her--I almost crapped my pants too.

I won't even go two inches in a vehicle with DD without making sure she's in her carseat and strapped in properly. Maybe I'm a paranoid, over-cautious American, but that "nuisance" saved my daughter's life. Can't use the carseat anymore, but I sure as hell kept it. I'm even thinking of creating a shrine.







:


----------



## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I would never imply that someone is an over-cautious, paranoid American for wanting his or her child in a carseat. It was implied that I was just that when I refused to take my 5 day-old dd home on the Metro.

But, there are other ways of life, still, out there in the world, where carseats just don't exist. They just don't. Am I saying that's OK? No. Am I saying people are ignorant. Yes. But not with the judgmental, negative, reactionary tone often found when talking about this subject.


----------



## CherylE (Oct 9, 2003)

It's possible the car/van could be old enough NOT to have airbags. Ours only has a drivers side airbag and it's pretty old - so I do worry about that. So if I pull off or park somewhere to nurse - I nurse in the front passenger seat. All 5 of my other van seats have carseats in them.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I read recently that the Japanese used to think that we Americans were real nutcases, what with all the carseats and babyproofing stuff. They never used them. They'd make jokes about it (baby gates ha ha ha). And then it kind of turned out that they have the highest infant mortatlity rate in the devloped world. And the studies showed it was because they were not using all of these safety devices. Suddenly it was not so funny anymore.


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I can't hardly blame her--I almost crapped my pants too.
OMG! I find this incredibly funny :LOL

I know it isnt, really, so a hug to you mama!


----------



## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
OMG! I find this incredibly funny :LOL

I know it isnt, really, so a hug to you mama!









Four months later, I can laugh about it.







I even said that in the ER, and that's the first time the nurses thought I probably didn't have a very serious head injury.









Thanks, though! It was skeery, but we had some super diligent angels following us that day.


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I am so glad you are all Ok


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
I read recently that the Japanese used to think that we Americans were real nutcases, what with all the carseats and babyproofing stuff. They never used them. They'd make jokes about it (baby gates ha ha ha). And then it kind of turned out that they have the highest infant mortatlity rate in the devloped world. And the studies showed it was because they were not using all of these safety devices. Suddenly it was not so funny anymore.

But I think Japan has half the infant mortality rate of the US....


----------



## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

What does infant mortality rate have to do with accidents? The infant mortality rate is a measure of live births vs. still births (or deaths within a certain number of days), no? Am I wrong?

Anyway, Japan has 3.30/1000 vs. 6.75/1000 in the US.


----------



## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Ok, yeah, I'm wrong. It's deaths within the first year of life.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
But I think Japan has half the infant mortality rate of the US....


I should have said "accidental death rate" instead of "mortality rate". In 1999, a Japan Institute of Health study showed that Japan had an accidental death rate way out of wack with it general mortaltity rate (which is low.) Indeed their infant accidental death rate was the highestin the develped world. After this study the Japanese stopped laughing about infant gates (lots of kids drowned in their in the floor tubs) and car seats.


----------



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, because I am too tired to read the entire thread...

To the poster that thinks that it's ok to have an unrestrained baby because she feels that she can avoid most accidents...did you ever even consider that maybe your UNRESTRAINED CHILD COULD CAUSE THE ACCIDENT??? It only takes a second, eyes off the road, looking at the baby, to cause an accident....THAT WOULD BE *YOUR* FAULT. So then you have an at fault accident AND an (hopefully only) injured baby.

Please, please consider what is most important here. Your child only gets one life.


----------



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Here is the outcome of that Ohio breastfeeding while driving incident...

Driving and Nursing


----------



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I am generally in the minority when it comes to laws..safety mostly. So I'll jump in and wearmy flame suit. While I do agree it is safer to have babies in car seats and yes I know you don'tknow when an accident is going to happen ..I Do not think it should be a law. My DD has been in a moving car out of her car seat probably 5or 6 times in her life. Was it safe? probably not but thank God we made it. I just don't like how everything has to be law...
Some people think harnesses are abusive b/c it treats a child like a dog..some people think they are a safety tool. What happens if it becomes that you MUST use a harness in a crowded place to avoid the chance that your child wanders off and gets hurt....then you might sue? or what if the government deems that to stop child abduction children must be lead around in harnesses until they are 5? This is also a safety issue and I just beleive it is the parents right to make their own choices based on information. So as long as the info is out there..let the parent work it out and leave the government out of it.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins*
What happens if it becomes that you MUST use a harness in a crowded place to avoid the chance that your child wanders off and gets hurt....then you might sue? or what if the government deems that to stop child abduction children must be lead around in harnesses until they are 5?

There's a problem with your argument: keeping a child in a harness wouldn't prevent most kidnappings. The overwhelming majority of kidnappings in the US are noncustodial parent abductions, and all the harnesses in the world won't prevent a noncustodial parent from neglecting to return their child after a visit. Carseats _do_ prevent most deaths in automobile accidents, so it's an entirely different matter.


----------



## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dewlady*
even if i get slack for it, here goes...

juniperjoy...i agree with you totally..

me too..

I am only on page 2 of this discussion, but I cant believe the limited tunnel these arguments apply to. a parent can make an educated descision about vax, discipline, childbirth, play time, vacations, travel, medical care...etc..but not the car? thats where the line gets drawn at MDC?

I would never pull up to someone, roll down my window and yell at them...THAT would be dangerous by possibly causing an accident, or creating a stressed out mom friving a child around. I like the idea about calling that number so they can send the parents an informational packet, in case they really dont know about care safety.

But this isnt a drunk driver, who could kill anyone he passes, this is a parent who is making a judgement call for their family, whether I agree with it or not....and we still have a right to do that, in this country (although give it time







)

dont want to cause trouble, just felt like others were being attacked unnessesarily


----------



## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miny20*
My husband and I have a saving... 'Don't try to stop them, their stupidity will clear their lines out of the gene pool.'

Amen, I say. Let that woman kill herself AND her child with her own stupidity, then, perhaps we won't have to deal with her genes being passed on.

Concrete proof that Darwin was on to something.

while i agree with this statement, in this case its arrogance is amusing...especially as the Consumer Products Safety commission is reading this and saying 'wow, we should FURTHER stress the safety issue of cribs, or bouncy seats..maybe we will sell more brand new -cuz you can pass them along, as they keep getting 'dangerous' and you need a new, safer one each year-products to these people)

i do put my dd in a carseat, always...but its my choice and i wont call someone else a bad parent for not doing it. i would merely let them know the options, and maybe some stats...the same i would if they were planning a c-sec or to vax their child....things i think are also very dangerous to go into blindly.


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
this is a parent who is making a judgement call for their family, whether I agree with it or not....and we still have a right to do that, in this country

Not in this case we don't. The law doesn't say, "Make a judgement call about putting your child in a car seat." The law says, "You must put your child in a car seat."

Also, taking your child to the mall is not an inherently risky thing to do in terms of how likely they are to get abducted. Parents can generally safely look after their child AND concentrate on their business at the mall. That's not as likely when it comes to supervising an unrestrained child AND driving. The law is in place to protect the child, certainly, but also the driver and other drivers/pedestrians.

Also, carseats are not intended to protect children while they are riding in a car. They are intended to protect children when they involved in a motor vehicle collision. And they do a d*mn fine job of it. So I can't imagine why someone would say they don't need to put their children in a carseat because they know how to calculate statistical risk and avoid accidents. Carseats are the most effective and beneficial when you're involved in an accident, not when you're not.

Btw, someone ran a red light and hit us last Thursday. Our car spun 3 times and hit a light pole. We were all restrained. None of us were hurt. That's my anecdotal evidence that carseats are important.

Wilma


----------



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

100% of stranger abductions would be prevented if children were in harnesses attatched to their parents. Does that mean it should be a law? (I reworded it for ya Eilonwy )
I can't paste quotes b/c my computer is screwy but anyway my argument is perfectly logical. Did you hear about the boy who was lured away from his mother while she was shopping and the little boy was tortured at a train station beofre being murdered. If that boy was on a harness this would not have happend. Shopping is distracting, crowded circuses are distracting...life is distracting. People here are constantly teling stories of "my child ran off..in the supermarket..in the park etc. Kids are always hiding under those clothes racks. Just because somehting is against the law doesn't automatically make it logical law. Here in NJ it is illegal to start your car and not be in it...so warming up your car on a bitter cold morning beofre you put your infant in the car to go the doctor is against the law. Haven't you ever gotten those emails with silly laws from your state listed in them? While those laws aren't enforced they are still laws and some cop somehwere could enforce it.
So the "it's the law argument " doesn't work.
Is it safer to have your child in car seat? It sure is. Should the government be teliing you what risks you want to take as parent...NO WAY!! (Not in the US anway...that is the form of government that I am referring to...other countries have differnt rules so Ican not speak for them)


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

hipumpkins said:


> 100% of stranger abductions would be prevented if children were in harnesses attatched to their parents. Does that mean it should be a law? (I reworded it for ya Eilonwy )
> 
> 100 percent???? There are several well known cases of kids being taken from their own homes. (Polly Klass for instance!) Or those taken during carjacking. There was a child where I lived who was taken out of his mothers arms at knifepoint. I don't think the person who did that would have hesitated to cut the harness.


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I don't think that just because you can make similar statements about two situations that the situations are therefore analogous.

"100% of stranger abductions could be prevented by harnessing children to their parents" (supposing this were a true statement)

and

"100% of child fatalities could be prevented by restraining children in car seats" (supposing this were a true statement)

don't make the two situations comparable.

Wilma


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I suppose one reason why such laws are enacted is to try and reduce the cost involved in dealing with such accidents. I suppose if you don't want to use a carseat, perhaps you should pay out-of-pocket for the emergency personnel who have to come to your accident site, pry your kids out of the car, take them to the ER, then those who use all the life-saving procedures they can to pull your kids from the brink of death, and if you are lucky they live and are in hospital for some time.

I'm guessing that if you worked in the field of emergency response, you'd feel that reducing the number of preventable injury/deaths just might make some sense economically.

I don't really know the numbers off-hand, but seems to me that certain safety laws (bike helmets, carseats) get enacted when emergency personnel report that a significant amount of resources gets devoted to things that are preventable. Perhaps someone in the ER field can comment.


----------



## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

In response to the original post, I've been known to give one of those "looks that could kill" but I've never actually said anything. Our local highways now have signs that say to call 911 to report impaired drivers. IMO, if there is an unrestrained child in that car- the driver is impaired.

I have always said that IMO it's sad that it needs to be the law that children have to be restrained. There's programs that give carseats if you don't have money for one. The local hospitals will give you a carseat or bill one on your insurance. There's no reason you can't get a carseat, and if you don't even have a carseat to get you somewhere to get a new one, I would call the police and explain your dilemma.

This is one thing, I can't even drive down my mom's long gravel driveway without my seatbelt because I feel very uncomfortable.

I didn't like it, but as a kid I was required to brush my teeth twice a day (no cavities until after two pregnancies!) and I had to wear my seatbelt.

When I was 16, I was hit by a drunk driver (who had been arrested for DWI etc over eight times







) at 5:00 in the afternoon. I was wearing my seatbelt and my big old truck was totaled. I've been in two other carseats from which I came away with only whiplash- because I was belted in.

My 70yo MIL doesn't wear her seatbelt and I told her I won't be scraping her off the road. She gets into my car and I don't drive until she buckles her seatbelt.

I guess I think if a parent wants to risk it, their insurance (health and car) should not be held liable and all expenses should be their responsibility. Their irresponsibility costs everyone else money in insurance premiums, healthcare, emergency personal, etc.

BTW- the bus isn't really an option for me. There is a small bus service and no taxis here. I walk to some places close by, but I have to go to the next town for organics etc.


----------



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I will definetly agre that instad of it being a law the people who choose to use safer options should have their insurance reduced. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I have no problems with incentives..I have big problems with laws in a free country.
I really don't see how anyone can want the government in their lives to the degree that it is.
I stand by my opnion that in a free country you should get to choose how to protect or not protect your own children. Whenther by vaccinating, not vaccinating, wearing helmets, seatbelts and otherwise...Go ahead and judge the parent but just don't make it a law. You can nit pick the harness example (BTW I am pretty sure Polly Klass was older than 5)but then again I could nit pick about children who do die in car seats...and it does hapen. I don't get the bus thing either...I am always hearing about busses turning over...maybe that's mostly here in NJ.
So for the OP I would not have confronted the people at all and truthfully I would have been scared for the kid when I saw that but I would know it wasn't my business. If it were my family member I would handle it differently.


----------



## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Hipumpkins, I see what you're saying about the government not intruding too far into our lives, but then I wonder, where do we draw the line? Does the government have any right/responsibility to protect children whose parents aren't doing it? If so, how much intrusion is enough and how much is too much?

Wilma


----------



## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
Hipumpkins, I see what you're saying about the government not intruding too far into our lives, but then I wonder, where do we draw the line? Does the government have any right/responsibility to protect children whose parents aren't doing it? If so, how much intrusion is enough and how much is too much?

Wilma









The thing is: who in the government decides what is right and wrong? I have heard of parents getting in trouble for nursing a 1yo or 2yo even though they are well within the WHO suggestion of AT LEAST two years and beyong as long as desired.


----------



## joyfulheart (Nov 24, 2001)

_edited because I posted after reading the first page, not realizing there were five more pages..._

_...so just pretend this post isn't here..._


----------



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I suppose one reason why such laws are enacted is to try and reduce the cost involved in dealing with such accidents. I suppose if you don't want to use a carseat, perhaps you should pay out-of-pocket for the emergency personnel who have to come to your accident site, pry your kids out of the car, take them to the ER, then those who use all the life-saving procedures they can to pull your kids from the brink of death, and if you are lucky they live and are in hospital for some time.

I'm guessing that if you worked in the field of emergency response, you'd feel that reducing the number of preventable injury/deaths just might make some sense economically.

I don't really know the numbers off-hand, but seems to me that certain safety laws (bike helmets, carseats) get enacted when emergency personnel report that a significant amount of resources gets devoted to things that are preventable. Perhaps someone in the ER field can comment.


This thread has gotten interesting.

The safest place in the car is the middle back seat; in the future will we have laws saying that no one can sit in the front passenger seat unless the back seat is full? It would save lives and ER money etc.

I am not against childseat laws or even seatbelt laws, but we do have to recognize that there is no endpoint to these kinds of laws.

And people do die because of seatbelts, and they do die in carseats. Airlines are considering a rule about infant seats (meaning parents would have to purchace an airplane ticket for children under 2 so they can be strapped in to a seat) but they are worried that parents wouldn't fly as much (too expensive to buy another ticket), which would cause child deaths to increase since cars children (and adults) are way more likely to be injured in a car than a plane.

To be really safe, you wouldn't put you kid in a car . . .


----------



## rickyshot (Aug 24, 2002)

To Hi pumpkin. I totally agree with you and government intrusion in our private lives at least to an extent. As far as care seats are concerned I am for them and always strapped my kids. To Juniper. Try gambling at the casino not with your kid. So what if the kid cries when in. Get him used to it for his own good. If he were to run into the street and a car was coming, you would practically pull his arm out getting him out the way. What is this notion that kids can't cry or be allowed any kind of stress or discipline. He has to do what is safe not what he wants. Pull over and console him when he cries and then back into the seat he goes. Desentitize him. If it can't be done , he does not ride period. Let him learn consequences for behaviors. What are you smoking anyways??? I can't believe what I heard. My son was 11 when he was in a car accident. He was supposed to have his seat belt on. He took it off. My brother who does not have kids really checked on him. WEll my s on went through the window in the accident and by the Grace of God is still alive and in his right mind. He looked like a monster and had passed out. He gets terrible migraines now from it. All because my brother who was naive to discipline did not tell him he better buckle up or the car does not move. BTW my brother eats himself up with guilt to this day on this one.


----------



## rickyshot (Aug 24, 2002)

OOPs typo. I meant that my brother did not check on him.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rickyshot*
To Juniper...What are you smoking anyways???

There's no need for rudeness.

Please let's keep this discussion respectful. Bashing someone for an opinion you don't share is not cool.

mamawanabe: you raise some good points. I assume the line is drawn based on risk. For example, the risks of not being in a carseat versus being in one may be much higher than the risks of being the middle versus being in the side/front. but since i don't know the exact stats I can't say for sure.


----------



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I draw the line somewhere between beating and spanking. To me physical and emotional outright abuse is where the law can step in. If a child needs to be protected FROM his parents..not from what might happen if Ihe or she doesn't strap in, vaccinate, wear this foam rubber suit and helmet everytime a kid goes to school.

BTW..I have also put DD in her car seat and absentmindedly forgotten to strap it. Anyone ever do that?


----------



## rickyshot (Aug 24, 2002)

To Piglet and Juniper sorry for the smoking comment. I really felt strong about this one.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Melda, just wanted to let you know something important...on the homepage it says that your Britax Marathon car seat was recalled...there were also some other versions so some of you may need to check it out too.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Just wanted to add that the other versions of the Britax are Husky and Wizard.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins*
BTW..I have also put DD in her car seat and absentmindedly forgotten to strap it. Anyone ever do that?

I've never done it, but I've got an irrational fear of it.. so much so that I've been known to pull over and get out and check.


----------



## Amberdawn (Aug 17, 2004)

_message removed by moderator..._


----------



## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

That post belongs in Activism I believe!


----------

