# 12 year old DS has not started puberty. His twin sister has.



## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

My son turned 12 two months ago (he's currently in 7th grade) and just last Friday, I took him to the pediatrician for his yearly check-up.

When it came time for him to "drop trou" so she could "check the plumbing", I was honestly shocked to see that he still shows no sign of development (and just a heads up, this is about to get slightly TMI but I don't want to leave any detail out that might be important).

In addition to having no leg, underarm, facial, or chest hair (which I already knew he didn't have), he also does not have any pubic hair.

Size wise, he's about 5'1" and a little on the a chubby side, but not fat per-se. 

His private parts are still the exact same size as when he was a baby. Obviously I don't have an exact measurement but if I had to guess I would say that his penis a little under 2 inches (excluding his overhanging foreskin, which still can't be retracted at all). 

His voice is still a soprano and he doesn't really have any muscle or a visible Adam's apple.

The odd thing about this though, is that he's average height and his face doesn't look any younger than the other boys in his class. But, from what I've seen at the pool, most of the boys in his class have hairy armpits already.

How rare is it for boys his age to still not have started puberty yet? I understand he's still young enough that it isn't a serious problem, but I don't think it's "normal" per-se.

In addition, I noticed that DS got really red in the face when the pediatrician acknowledged that he "still hasn't started puberty" and even after she reassured him that he was normal, he still seems really insecure about it.

I feel like this insecurity not only stems from comparing himself to other boys, but also from his twin sister. She's 4 inches taller than him, has worn a bra for 3 years, has shaved her underarms and legs for a year and a half, and has had her period (as of last month). I still remember when she got her first razor, he asked if he could have one too.

He's already very competitive with her, so I have a feeling he's really embarrassed by this.

Is there anybody that's had any experience dealing with anything like this that has any advice they can give on this? Thanks.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

My 15 1/2-year-old DS has just hit puberty, at 12 he was nowhere close. He is still behind the majority of his friends at 5' 11" and 121 lbs. It is especially tough for him because he is a competitive soccer player and being a late bloomer is definitely a disadvantage. There really isn't much you can do except reassure him that he will catch up and that girls generally mature sooner than boys.


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## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

Mirzam said:


> My 15 1/2-year-old DS has just hit puberty, at 12 he was nowhere close. He is still behind the majority of his friends at 5' 11" and 121 lbs. It is especially tough for him because he is a competitive soccer player and being a late bloomer is definitely a disadvantage. There really isn't much you can do except reassure him that he will catch up and that girls generally mature sooner than boys.


Did your son not start developing at all (even "down there") until he was 15 and a half? I feel like that's a long time to wait.

Also, I'm not sure if you would know this, but was he ever made fun of in the locker rooms or anything like that? Did it make him insecure?

Lastly, I feel like explicitly telling him that girls his age have all developed already will just make him feel worse.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

I do not have a 12 year old (yet. Gosh, it's coming faster than I realise now that I think of it!) But I would again reassure him that girls typically mature faster than boys. No reason for him to feel insecure about it. That would be like being insecure because his sister will get breasts and he will not. It's just biology.

Unfortunately for your son, 12 is a rough age no matter what. So is 13. And 14. And 15. Growing up is hard, and no matter what we try to do about it, everyone matures at differing rates. Reassure him that he WILL catch up. It sucks right now, but one day he'll be just as hairy and stinky and gross as every other guy he knows.  Puberty sucks hindquarters, but it happens to us all and it doesn't last forever.

There is a reason that puberty is defined as a RANGE of ages. We truly do all develop at differing rates. Some kids will be the unfortunate ones that develop early in that range, and some will be the unfortunate ones that develop late in that range. Give him a hug and ask him for patience with his body. It has a lot of work ahead of it, but it will come.


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## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

As I said before, I feel like explicitly telling him that girls his age have all developed already will just make him feel worse.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

camillabien said:


> As I said before, I feel like explicitly telling him that girls his age have all developed already will just make him feel worse.


Well, here's the other thing - they haven't. Plenty of 12 year-old girls are looking in the mirror and wondering if they're going to be flat chested and hipless their whole entire lives.

People develop at different rates and different times. It's rough for him that he's not on the early end, and especially rough for him that he's not and his sister is. It's really impossible to predict exactly when puberty will hit. You can make guesses by looking at yourself and your parents, but there's no certainty. You just have to wait.

I hit puberty at 12.5-ish. My younger sister hit it six months later when she was 10. My twin sister hit puberty a year and a half later, at 14. I know plenty of guys who started high school five feet tall and started sophomore year as six footers. Or who suddenly _filled out_. I also know some guys whose full adult height was 5'3". These are all fine. And they do all eventually grow hair in all the places.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

camillabien said:


> Did your son not start developing at all (even "down there") until he was 15 and a half? I feel like that's a long time to wait.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure if you would know this, but was he ever made fun of in the locker rooms or anything like that? Did it make him insecure?
> 
> Lastly, I feel like explicitly telling him that girls his age have all developed already will just make him feel worse.


I don't look at his penis and as far as I know he has never been made fun of in the locker room. I can't say he is particularly insecure or at least he hasn't express that, not that he would feel comfortable expressing that because he is a shy, private boy. I don't think he gives a flying fig if girls developed sooner than him, there was a girl in his 4th grade class who was a very early developer, and tall, but I can't say it bothered him in the least.

He has older sisters who were all late developers, my middle DD didn't get her period until she was 15 years 3 months old, and by then she was 5' 7".


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

camillabien said:


> As I said before, I feel like explicitly telling him that girls his age have all developed already will just make him feel worse.


No body said that. There is a big difference from reassuring a boy that "often times, girls start puberty earlier than boys" and "all the girls have already developed." Really big difference. He has eyes and most likely noticed that the girls are changing. This isn't some big secret that you can keep from him.

Second, you are assuming he is upset that he hasn't entered puberty because he was embarrassed when the doctor checked out his equipment and discussed it with his mother. The embarrassment may or may not have anything to do with how he feels about puberty. It may have been embarrassed because a doctor was checking out his genitals and then discussing them with his mother. That's just embarrassing.


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## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

And that apparently wasn't the end of the embarrassment.


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## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

farmermomma said:


> And that apparently wasn't the end of the embarrassment.


What do you mean?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't know what she meant, but I am a little disturbed that you stood in the room while your son had an exam in the nude. It sounds like you were really surprised by what you saw, which says to me that it's not normal in your family for him to be naked in front of you. If that's the case, why did you stay? Let the kid have some privacy at the doctor if he usually wants privacy at home. (I don't think it's a problem for kids to be naked in front of their parents if both parties are comfortable with that, but it doesn't sound like that's what was going on here.) 

Did you ask him whether it was OK for you to be there?

If the pediatrician didn't express any worries about his pace of development, I don't think you should either. It's not a race. If you look at the other kids in his class, there's probably a wide spectrum of development. Do you not remember this from being in seventh grade yourself? 

You need to chill out about your kid's body. It's not a contest to look like an adult as fast as possible. I hope he couldn't tell how much you were judging his appearance. What a horrible thing that would be for him as he gradually moves into adulthood. 

The best way to reclaim this moment for your parenting relationship is to check in with him about the privacy issue. If I were you and I had done this without requesting permission, I would apologize. My son is also 12 and also hasn't gone through puberty and also had a recent doctor's appointment. Though he did not disrobe for his appointment, I still asked him whether he wanted me to stay! If you did request permission and he said yes, maybe give him a book about puberty and development to open the conversation.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Gosh, i knew plenty of boys who were nowhere near puberty at age 12. (ok, judging by their voices and height, not down there, as i never saw that ;-)
Both my brothers were not in puberty by then. And nor was I. No, girls do not typically go into puberty younger than boys. I think you are confusing that with the notion the girls typically mature emotionally faster than boys. So some girls have tits, but plenty of them dont. Just as plenty of boys are not in puberty yet by age 12.
Why do people expect kids to grow up so fast?

Relax. Your son is normal, albiet probably very embarassed.


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## camillabien (Jun 8, 2015)

captain optimism said:


> I don't know what she meant, but I am a little disturbed that you stood in the room while your son had an exam in the nude. It sounds like you were really surprised by what you saw, which says to me that it's not normal in your family for him to be naked in front of you. If that's the case, why did you stay? Let the kid have some privacy at the doctor if he usually wants privacy at home. (I don't think it's a problem for kids to be naked in front of their parents if both parties are comfortable with that, but it doesn't sound like that's what was going on here.)
> 
> Did you ask him whether it was OK for you to be there?
> 
> ...


For starters, I wouldn't really call it an "exam in the nude". It was a yearly well child check-up. Does your son not get those? If not, here's what happens: She checks his eyes/ears/nose while he's fully dressed. Then she asks him to take off his shirt so she can check his chest/back. Then she asks him to take off his pants so she can check his legs/knees/reflexes. Then she pulls down his underwear, briefly feels each testicle, lightly tries to retract his foreskin, and pulls his underwear back up. He's literally naked for less than 30 seconds. He has had this exact same exam done every year.

Also, when the actual "exam" part of the check-up started, the pediatrician asked DS "Is it okay with you if your mom stays for this?" and he said it was fine. He knows that I'm his mother and I've seen it all before, especially since he is still prepubescent.

And lastly, I'm not "judging his appearance". I want to make sure he doesn't have any legitimate physical or hormonal problems that could lead to serious issues (mentally, physically, and socially).


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes, I just took my son for a well-child check up. The doctor did check his reflexes, but did not check to see whether his testicles had descended. My own pediatrician when I was a child had me disrobe at this age (and maybe younger?) but that's not standard at this practice. This doctor asks a lot of questions, but most of the examinations are clothed. After taking height and weight and an eye and ear check, the main questions are about nutrition and socialization. 

Please forgive me for misunderstanding your initial post. I'm only going on what I read! I am glad your son was OK with you being in the room. I'm also relieved that you don't think he perceived your reaction to how he looked as alarmed or dismayed. I don't think there's any cause for anything like that. 

Obviously, we have to stay on top of our kids' development, and not let them suffer because we weren't paying attention. I see that most websites list typical ages for puberty in boys as 12-16, meaning that our boys at 12 are on the young side for puberty. Some people, boys and girls both, are going through puberty earlier these days. That's probably not a great thing.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

camillabien said:


> I want to make sure he doesn't have any legitimate physical or hormonal problems that could lead to serious issues (mentally, physically, and socially).


The right person for that question is the DOCTOR who did the exam. Not an internet message board.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

One thing I noticed when I had my son was that there's a huge and frankly intensely weird amount of attention given to little boys' penises. THere's just a ton of concern about whether each individual boy is "normal" - is he big enough, is he developing the way he should, is the size of his penis going to cause romantic difficulties or social issues for him, and if the child differs from whatever we think he should look like, even if the difference is temporary, how can we fix it? I have seen pediatric urologists suggest liposuction for preschoolers.

I don't think it does any child any good to get too comparative. We should put individual shower stalls and curtained changing cubicles in boys' locker rooms, just like they have on the girls' side, and stop fretting about this. As a parent, I decline to enter into size comparisons or push my kids towards physical ideals that have nothing to do with their health.


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## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

You're still discussing your son's genitals on the Internet. That's embarrassing. 
Son- "So Mom, What did you do today ?"
Mom-"I discussed your genitals on the Internet "
Son-"Gee Mom that's really_____"
Fill in the blank mom.


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## IsaFrench (Mar 22, 2008)

embarrassing ...or not embarrassing (am from another culture, so i obviously don't "juge" the same as you on the embarrassment scale ...)
i still think it's nice for the Mom to be able to discuss whatever subject she's worried about over the internet
she may not have real life people she can talk about these issues ....


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

My DS will be 13 in December and is a bit on the chubby side and under 5 ft tall. Definitely nowhere close to puberty - no facial hair, etc. He's gotten more private about his body the last 6 months or so so I'm not about his "parts." Anyway, I think your DS sounds pretty normal.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

IsaFrench said:


> embarrassing ...or not embarrassing (am from another culture, so i obviously don't "juge" the same as you on the embarrassment scale ...)
> i still think it's nice for the Mom to be able to discuss whatever subject she's worried about over the internet
> she may not have real life people she can talk about these issues ....


Agreed. Its a legitimate concern.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

MeepyCat said:


> One thing I noticed when I had my son was that there's a huge and frankly intensely weird amount of attention given to little boys' penises. THere's just a ton of concern about whether each individual boy is "normal" - is he big enough, is he developing the way he should, is the size of his penis going to cause romantic difficulties or social issues for him, and if the child differs from whatever we think he should look like, even if the difference is temporary, how can we fix it? I have seen pediatric urologists suggest liposuction for preschoolers.
> 
> I don't think it does any child any good to get too comparative. We should put individual shower stalls and curtained changing cubicles in boys' locker rooms, just like they have on the girls' side, and stop fretting about this. As a parent, I decline to enter into size comparisons or push my kids towards physical ideals that have nothing to do with their health.


As a mother of two boys, I have to say, that i haven't noticed this at all. I do think the pressure is on children to grow up more quickly, that indeed puberty is arriving earlier and earlier for girls because of additional hormones in food ( I believe this affects mens sperm count, but i dont know how it affects the onset of boys' puberty)

Nope, penis size hasnt come into discussion with doctors or other parents other than this thread.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Linda on the move said:


> The right person for that question is the DOCTOR who did the exam. Not an internet message board.


No, i always go to the internet with questions before I go to the doctor. It better to approach doctors with some prior knowledge.
But you probably trust the medical profession more than I do.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

contactmaya said:


> No, i always go to the internet with questions before I go to the doctor. It better to approach doctors with some prior knowledge.
> But you probably trust the medical profession more than I do.


I hope the OPer trust the Dr. she took her son to:



camillabien said:


> Then she pulls down his underwear, briefly feels each testicle, lightly tries to retract his foreskin, and pulls his underwear back up.


Realistically, if you have a competent dr and they EXAM your child, you will get better information than if you post info on the web and let random people, who've never met your child and have zero credentials, say their opinion.

I also don't understand this type of check. I only have daughters, and never once did a doctor check their parts and make sure they were developing right. It's weird to me.



farmermomma said:


> Son- "So Mom, What did you do today ?"
> Mom-"I discussed your genitals on the Internet "
> Son-"Gee Mom that's really_____"
> Fill in the blank mom.


I think it would end this way:
Son - "What were you saying about my genitals?"
Mom - "Just that your penis is so small that I'm really concerned about it. I know the doctor said it was fine, but I'm worried that you could have mental and social problems because your penis is so small, so I wanted to talk about it with lots of women. I need a lot of reassurance that your penis is developing normally.

I think that our adolescents and teens have a right to privacy.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> No, girls do not typically go into puberty younger than boys.


On average they do, actually. About one to two years earlier, from start to finish. Early puberty is puberty that starts before 9 in boys, but that's considered within normal limits for girls; for them the definition of early puberty is before age 8. Growth spurts, changes in hair growth, breast/testicular growth, all those things are on average later in boys than girls. Here's a good overview.

My 12-year-old girl is living in the trough of this right now. She's been menstruating for more than a year and is physically pretty fully developed. Her interests and mindset have definitely matured and she is in many ways indistinguishable from her 14 and 15-year-old friends. And yet, as she sighs repeatedly "Twelve-year-old boys, omg ... when are they going to start growing up? They're such little kids still."

Miranda


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think it's terrible to look for reassurance online. I was more worried about whether the tone of alarm in the original post came across to the child. 

My own mother has always been worried about whether her children, and now, my son, are developing and growing at an average rate. Also whether our bodies are standard in terms of weight. She's very worried about weight. This was not good for me as a child, and has been difficult for me as an adult. Like most women in the US, I have struggles with body image. Having a mom who was, and is, so weirdly competitive about bodies did not help me at all. (And it's generally a competition about something you just do not control, so it's kind of absurd.) 

You might think that because women suffer from this most, that men don't. My dad talked with me recently about shopping for clothing with his own parents at my son's age, and having them say negative things about his body during the awkwardness of puberty. He's 79 years old, and he's not totally over that! (I'm pretty sure it came up because he doesn't want my kid to go through anything similar.) 

I think it's important for parents to convey to our children that we believe they are attractive and fine the way they are, especially when they're 12. I mostly think about this because of weight issues, but for sure questioning whether your child's body is sexually normal is something you don't want to do in front of him. 

I mean, I'm sure there is a time to step in and talk to the doctor about growth hormone treatments and diagnosis of serious hormonal conditions, but I don't think this is that time by any stretch of the imagination. It's really not unusual for a 12 year old boy to be pre-pubescent. 

If my son takes after his dad, he might go through puberty on the very late side. I think maybe it would help to find out at what age your child's father went through puberty and when other men in your family did.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> On average they do, actually. About one to two years earlier, from start to finish. Early puberty is puberty that starts before 9 in boys, but that's considered within normal limits for girls; for them the definition of early puberty is before age 8. Growth spurts, changes in hair growth, breast/testicular growth, all those things are on average later in boys than girls. Here's a good overview.
> 
> My 12-year-old girl is living in the trough of this right now. She's been menstruating for more than a year and is physically pretty fully developed. Her interests and mindset have definitely matured and she is in many ways indistinguishable from her 14 and 15-year-old friends. And yet, as she sighs repeatedly "Twelve-year-old boys, omg ... when are they going to start growing up? They're such little kids still."
> 
> Miranda


Perhaps they do. But there are plenty who dont. I dont think it matters either way as far as the OP's 12 yo boy is concerned.

(Its a separate question from the the fact that girls are going into puberty earlier and earlier because of hormones in food. )

Also, I dont know whether the fact that girls tend to 'mature' faster than boys, is related to the actual onset of puberty.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

_I also don't understand this type of check. I only have daughters, and never once did a doctor check their parts and make sure they were developing right. It's weird to me. _

When the boys are young, they want to check to see if the testicles have descended (something like that). They want to make sure the foreskin has separated. Intactivists learn to tell the doc to leave the foreskin alone as some try to forcefully separate it (one reason i dont trust docs without internet backup) I dont know about older boys.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

I think that the hormonal environment your brain is living in has a lot to do with your interests, emotional state, social affinities and so on. But whether puberty contributes to emotional maturation or not, the reality is that on average girls mature faster than boys both physically and emotionally. 

My ds entered puberty around the same time as his younger sister (they're almost two years apart). For a while when she started developing she was actually taller than he was and this was a source of anxiety for him: when was he going to grow? would he ever get taller? It was immensely reassuring for him to hear that later puberty and later grown spurts were statistically speaking normal for boys, that this was a pretty common situation. If kids are worried about their development -- and I have no idea whether the OP's son is or not -- it can be very helpful for them to understand that in the big-picture sense their developmental trajectory is consistent with a scientifically recognized trend.

Miranda


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> (Its a separate question from the the fact that girls are going into puberty earlier and earlier because of hormones in food. )


We know that female pro-hormones (androstenedione and testosterone) are converted into their more active feminizing forms (estrone and estradiol) in peripheral fat cells. With better nutrition, our girls tend to go into adolescence with more body fat stores than they did a hundred years ago, leading to higher levels of estrone and estradiol.

Miranda


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think it's terrible to look for reassurance online. I was more worried about whether the tone of alarm in the original post came across to the child. 

My own mother has always been worried about whether her children, and now, my son, are developing and growing at an average rate. Also whether our bodies are standard in terms of weight. She's very worried about weight. This was not good for me as a child, and has been difficult for me as an adult. Like most women in the US, I have struggles with body image. Having a mom who was, and is, so weirdly competitive about bodies did not help me at all. (And it's generally a competition about something you just do not control, so it's kind of absurd.) 

You might think that because women suffer from this most, that men don't. My dad talked with me recently about shopping for clothing with his own parents at my son's age, and having them say negative things about his body during the awkwardness of puberty. He's 79 years old, and he's not totally over that! (I'm pretty sure it came up because he doesn't want my kid to go through anything similar.) 

I think it's important for parents to convey to our children that we believe they are attractive and fine the way they are, especially when they're 12. 

In any case, if this were an example of a delayed puberty, you might have some serious questions about whether to intervene medically. It would be worthwhile to know when the child's father went through puberty--my kid's dad was super late--and when other men in your families did.


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## salr (Apr 14, 2008)

As a side note, I don't believe there's any time when a doctor needs to check to see if there is separation of the foreskin and the glans, unless the individual is experiencing a problem.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> We know that female pro-hormones (androstenedione and testosterone) are converted into their more active feminizing forms (estrone and estradiol) in peripheral fat cells. With better nutrition, our girls tend to go into adolescence with more body fat stores than they did a hundred years ago, leading to higher levels of estrone and estradiol.
> 
> Miranda


Im sure that is true. But I have myself as an example of a well fed not underweight teen who didnt go into puberty until age 15.

That aside, I meant the hormone additives in cows milk that act ascpseudo estrogens bringing the age of puberty down even further in the last decade or so, rather than the improved nutrition over the last century.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

moominmamma said:


> We know that female pro-hormones (androstenedione and testosterone) are converted into their more active feminizing forms (estrone and estradiol) in peripheral fat cells. With better nutrition, our girls tend to go into adolescence with more body fat stores than they did a hundred years ago, leading to higher levels of estrone and estradiol.
> 
> Miranda





contactmaya said:


> Im sure that is true. But I have myself as an example of a well fed not underweight teen who didnt go into puberty until age 15.
> 
> That aside, I meant the hormone additives in cows milk that act ascpseudo estrogens bringing the age of puberty down even further in the last decade or so, rather than the improved nutrition over the last century.


I don't think better nutrition is the only reason that children today are hitting puberty earlier than one hundred years ago. I think that environmental toxins are probably more influential. Neither of my three children experienced early puberty, as I mentioned above my son is justing hitting puberty at 15 1/2, DD #1 was at least 14 1/2 before she got her period and DD#2 was 15 years 3 months old when she started. I can assure you none of my children are malnourished, but I have avoided exposing them to environmental toxins as very best I can. I started my period at 12 1/2, but I have a mouthful of mercury and it is known that mercury binds permanently to luteinizing hormone, so it might play a role in early puberty.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Mirzam said:


> I don't think better nutrition is the only reason that children today are hitting puberty earlier than one hundred years ago.[/url]


It's probably not the only reason, though I think there's fairly clear correlative evidence that it's a major contributor. I just raised that point because a previous poster seemed to be implying the things like BGH were the main cause.

Anecdotally we are an organic, vegetarian family living in pristine wilderness between massive wilderness parks where you can still drink the surface water and walk for miles without seeing another human being, and my youngest dd started menstruating at 11. I grew up in the 1970s in an industrial area eating processed food with a mouthful of amalgam and started menstruating around my 14th birthday. There is incredible individual variability in the timing and rate of normal puberty ... that's the real take-home message from this thread, I think.

Miranda


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> It's probably not the only reason, though I think there's fairly clear correlative evidence that it's a major contributor. I just raised that point because a previous poster seemed to be implying the things like BGH were the main cause.
> 
> Anecdotally we are an organic, vegetarian family living in pristine wilderness between massive wilderness parks where you can still drink the surface water and walk for miles without seeing another human being, and my youngest dd started menstruating at 11. I grew up in the 1970s in an industrial area eating processed food with a mouthful of amalgam and started menstruating around my 14th birthday. There is incredible individual variability in the timing and rate of normal puberty ... that's the real take-home message from this thread, I think.
> 
> Miranda


I stand my by the idea that BGH along with other environmental toxins are bringing down the age of puberty. (must have been that documentary I watched. ) Not from 15-12 but as young as 8. I am seeing this more and more, and it would have been unheard of when i was that age, so in a span of 35 years or so.

While I agree that excessive weight can also bring down the age of puberty, as you mentioned above, I dont think that is the main reason for earlier onset of puberty, other than those who are ...overweight. There are plenty of girls who maintain a normal healthy weight, not substantially different from our mothers and grandmothers.

Genetics and individual variability still play a role. We agree on that.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> While I agree that excessive weight can also bring down the age of puberty, as you mentioned above,


Just to clarify, it's not excessive weight, it's more the lack of underweight girls in the population. We know that when body fat levels dip below 15% in women, hormone cycles can be disrupted.

Miranda


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> Just to clarify, it's not excessive weight, it's more the lack of underweight girls in the population. We know that when body fat levels dip below 15% in women, hormone cycles can be disrupted.
> 
> Miranda


Agreed as far as the role of fat levels are concerned. I dont really want to debate this with you, but, I chose the phrase 'excessive weight' specifically, as being any level that brings down an optimal age of puberty, to premature puberty. Those who have a disrupted cycle due to being underweight are more an exception than the rule in a wealthy countries.

I guess my point is, that while improved nutrition might have some bearing on the age of puberty, it is less important than environmental toxins and a debauched food supply in influencing the dramatic reduction in the age of puberty seen in the last 35 years. I think the point about improved nutrition might be more valid when looking at longer periods of history, at a time, centuries maybe, when the norm was to be underfed versus the tendency of increasing rates of obesity we see now. It might be interesting to compare with other countries, especially those where there is malnutrition.

Anyway, I dont now if this helps the OP But i do wonder what environmental toxins have on puberty for males. It makes sense that it might have the opposite impact-ie feminizing them. Studies were done in Denmark that showed lower sperm counts resulting from pseudo estrogens in milk. Might that not also cause a boys penis to be smaller, some breast growth and general later puberty onset? I havent looked into it yet.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> the dramatic reduction in the age of puberty seen in the last 35 years.


Do you have scientific evidence of this? Because I've looked into various studies both within the US and internationally in other industrialized nations and I haven't seen what you're describing. Menarche is the easiest and most statistically valid way to measure the onset of puberty. There was a fairly impressive decline in the average age of menarche from 100 to 50 years ago (from almost 17 to around 13). In the past 50 years the average age of menarche has continued to decline, but much more slowly, down to 12-and-change. That decreasing trend is real and ongoing, and there's plenty of research into what factors are contributing, but it's hardly a "dramatic reduction ... in the last 35 years."

This is a pretty good lay-person's overview of the complexity of the issue: http://www.cwhn.ca/en/node/39365

Miranda


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks for the link. Im just going by discussions Ive had, anecdotal evidence (there is plenty of it), and most importantly, a documentary I saw on the subject.

Why am I buying organic milk again? I thought it was common knowledge.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> Why am I buying organic milk again?


And we Canadians are pretty concerned about how the TPP would allow for imports of your non-organic milk and milk products to our country. 

Miranda


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## natalie18 (Nov 14, 2015)

Growing up with a brother, I'm pretty sure that at 12 there was not a whole lot of development in that area yet.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I would not be concerned for another year at least, based on what I have read about the range of normal timing of puberty.

Linda on the Move wrote:


> I only have daughters, and never once did a doctor check their parts and make sure they were developing right. It's weird to me.


I have a daughter. Her genitals were checked 1 hour after birth, at her 2-day-old checkup, and at her 6-month-old checkup. I don't know how often this will be part of exams later in childhood. I remember that when I was 8 and getting a physical for camp, the doctor asked when I last had a genital exam, my mom said not since the urinary tract infection when I was 3, and so the doctor took a quick look and then checked a box on the form--if there was a box for it, I assume it's somewhat routine.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Noone's checked my daughters 'box' yet, and nor mine prior to pregnancy....


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## jsave (Mar 22, 2011)

For 96% of North American males, puberty begins between 9.8 and 14.2 years, with a mean of 11.8 years So he normal to start and. all erection and growth of his Penis and testis are the first sing. and is you can't get good measurement of penis size with out ertcation I say jest wait and see. Boy start puberty at approximately two years later than girls


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

moominmamma said:


> That decreasing trend is real and ongoing, and there's plenty of research into what factors are contributing, but it's hardly a "dramatic reduction ... in the last 35 years."
> 
> This is a pretty good lay-person's overview of the complexity of the issue: http://www.cwhn.ca/en/node/39365
> 
> Miranda


Had a look at the article,

Alright, the decreasing age of puberty is not 'dramatic', but nonetheless 'real and ongoing' as you said. The article only confirms what i was saying....not sure what the disagreement, if there was one,was about....but an interesting summary of the information was provided in the article-

"....Steingraber concludes, "It is now the opinion of most endocrinologists...that the falling age of puberty among US girls is a real and ongoing phenomenon." What is not as clear is why this is happening, and what (or if something) needs to be done about it.....

.......Steingraber concludes that, in combination, this chemical cocktail may be a significant factor in causing the "new normal" rates of pubertal development in US girls, but we don't have enough research to say for certain-only enough research to raise red flags and caution.....
....Chemical flame retardants, for example, polybrominated biphenyls (PBBs) have been linked to earlier menstruation in girls and with earlier pubarche.....

...studies have shown hormonally active agents in the urine of US girls and traces of such known human contaminants as phthalates and bisphenol A (which was originally developed as a synthetic hormone, but is now used in all polycarbonate plastics and the linings of food and beverage cans, among other uses..... including hair tonics, pesticides, packaging and building materials.....

......The use of natural and synthetic hormones to promote growth in US livestock and stimulate milk production in dairy cattle (a practice banned in European countries) has also raised concern;........."

Article continues saying....more research is necessary....


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

camillabien said:


> For starters, I wouldn't really call it an "exam in the nude". It was a yearly well child check-up. Does your son not get those? If not, here's what happens: She checks his eyes/ears/nose while he's fully dressed. Then she asks him to take off his shirt so she can check his chest/back. Then she asks him to take off his pants so she can check his legs/knees/reflexes. Then she pulls down his underwear, briefly feels each testicle, lightly tries to retract his foreskin, and pulls his underwear back up. He's literally naked for less than 30 seconds. He has had this exact same exam done every year.


She actually should not be trying to retract his foreskin. You need to correct her on that. Only the penis owner should retract it, and retracting it is not a necessary part of a physical exam for a child.
See: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/info-forcedretraction.html
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/11/forced-retraction-dont-let-it-happen-to.html

My 12 year old son has shown no signs of puberty, either, and he will be 13 in February. I'm not really worried about it, because my husband and I were both on the late side, and boys tend to mature more slowly anyway.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

contactmaya said:


> Alright, the decreasing age of puberty is not 'dramatic', but nonetheless 'real and ongoing' as you said. ....not sure what the disagreement, if there was one,was about


You said there had been a dramatic decrease in the age of puberty in the last 35 years. In other words, you were suggesting that there had been recent rapid change, within our lifetimes. In fact whatever "dramatic decrease" there was occurred long before our generation and in the past 50 years the average age has only decreased by a few months. To me that sheds a rather different light on the issue since changes have decelerated in the past couple of generations rather than accelerated.

Miranda


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I found this today and thought of this thread:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/20/us/doubters-fault-theory-finding-earlier-puberty.html


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