# Childfree and age segregation



## kmamma (Dec 16, 2004)

I was recently at my cousin's wedding and my sister had informed me prior that kids were not allowed. I found it not only strange that kids were not welcome (I never remotely engaged the thought of childfree for my wedding 12 years ago, even before I had kids of my own), but that the invitation didn't even have to state that the party would be childfree. I assume that it's becoming the rule here in Sweden now too. I just moved back home after 11 years of living in the States, where, as most of you know, childfree arrangements are very commonplace.
Next weekend I'm going to another celebration. My dear friend from high school just got married and is having a midsummer party. Kids were welcome, but today she sent me a message saying that unfortunately most parents had arranged for babysitters! So now I'm considering leaving my own kids at home since I imagine it would be boring for them with no other kids around. But I am tempted to bring them to show the other parents (most of whom I've never met) that including my kids at a party is doable, and actually enjoyable.

Anyhow, this breaks my heart. Naturally, like many other parents, I too struggle with parenting, but I don't have that desire to be away from my kids and other kids most of the time.

What is so wrong with mixing ages when celebrating (and in other activities)? I so badly want to live in a society where kids are seen as an integral and natural part of an adult-centered world. Or perhaps even be part of a 'not childfree' revolution







. Anyone care to join me?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

As someone with kids, I agree with you that I love having kids at celebrations. But I do remember the me before children, and how I avoided restaurants with children, and loved going to events without children. And most people just getting married don't have children yet, so they might be where I was when I didn't have children. I guess I see both sides. I think it's nicer to allow children, but it's their celebration and they get to do it their way. Sadly, I have had to miss weddings for that reason.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

This is probably one of the most frequently revisited debates I see here on MDC. My feeling is this: I absolutely adore children, but I think whomever is throwing the party has a right to chose adults only.

Yes, it can be a PITA to arrange childcare or feel that your precious little ones are not welcome, but it also adds a dimension of pressure to the hosts to arrange special meals, activities, and keep events family friendly.

It's obviously not a personal attack on your kiddos if there is a blanket request that a party be only for adults. Therefore, don't take it personally. Go if you want to, and if not, RSVP "no."


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmamma* 
What is so wrong with mixing ages when celebrating (and in other activities)? I so badly want to live in a society where kids are seen as an integral and natural part of an adult-centered world. Or perhaps even be part of a 'not childfree' revolution







. Anyone care to join me?









I think the point of the post is more about the above quite, rather than the specific situation you have coming up. Even if its not, that what I'm replying to.









I think part of it has to do with the fact that we are trying to raise children in such isolated situations. We feel like all child-rearing responsibilities lie on the mom and dad. This IS overwhelming for most people and most people DO want occasional breaks from that. So when a special event comes up, rather then anticipating an evening of chasing their kids around and keeping them entertained all by themselves, people get sitters. I think that if we took on the saying "it takes a village" more, we might have an easier time enjoying ourselves with our children present, knowing that all adults and older children were also looking out for them, feeding them, playing with them, etc.

For example, we have a small group at church that has 10 kids under 4 in it (14 adults or so). We meet every week at my friend's house, and its a little crazy, but I love it. There are TONS of grownups who will get my kids a drink of water, play with them, snuggle them to sleep at the end of the night, etc. I can have my kids there and enjoy myself because everyone is loving on each others kids and keeping them safe, fed and watered. I do the same with my friend's kids. It works out well, and I always think, "this is more how raising kids should work!"


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Maybe the parents invited to this celebration just want to the opportunity to make this their "date night" with their spouse? My kids are 5 and 8 and they probably would much rather stay home and hang with the cool babysitter I arranged and watch movies and eat junk food than come to an evening party of one of my friends, ya know? And I would totally WELCOME the opportunity to do just that. I bring my kids to plenty of family celebrations, parties, and get togethers. We spend PLENTY of time together. A night once or twice a month with just my husband is something I really enjoy.

Now, if I had a young nursling, I would definitely be feeling like I want to bring him/her along and would only accept invitations where babe was welcome. It's just how it goes and I wouldn't be upset at the host/hostess about it either. We go to a yearly Oktoberfest party that is adults only every year. I won't be going this year because I will have a newborn. It's an adult party with lots of beer drinking and adult conversation. I wouldn't want to bring my children to this party, even if they were invited, ya know? So, I will sit out this year. And probably get a sitter the next year when baby is older and can go a few hours without momma.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Where I live this isn't commonplace(and it is the western US), in fact any party that I'd be invited to would have kids. My IL's are all about family and so are most of my friends, that said I am of the camp that the person throwing the party should get to decide if kids are invited.

Right now I'd LOVE to go to a party w/out kids, but I'm on kiddo burnout. Luckily tomorrow is our anniversary and it's date night


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

I am always very surprised to hear about kid-free weddings. To me, weddings are a family affair, and excluding the children just seems wrong. Weddings are welcoming a new member to a family, even if it's not your family. To me, this no-kids idea is connecting with the ideal of have "the perfect wedding," and as we all know, children are not perfect (kind of like adults). I don't think all places are necessarily good places to bring children, but if I was invited to a wedding where my son was not welcome, I wouldn't go. Obviously they have the right to exclude children since it's their celebration; it's just lame.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

I don't see what the big deal is with leaving kids at home now and then. Like a PP said, most of us don't have a "village" raising our kids and when we go to a party we barely get to relax or eat because we are dealing with kids the whole time. I have three sons, aged 5, 3 and 1 and while I love and adore them, I am just fine going to an adults only party or wedding now and again. The 3 and 1 year old can barely sit still for more than a few minutes, so DH or I would end up chasing them around the whole time. That doesn't mean we never expose our kids to weddings or parties, but I like the occasional kid-free event....my DH and I can really relax and chat with other adults.

My sister is getting married in September and is having a kid-free wedding. There are 13 nieces and nephews, all under age 7. On top of that, all of her friends have small kids so it would add up to probably over 30 young children...at a small wedding. All my siblings agree that it would be totally crazy to have all the kids there. Very few of us would get to listen to the ceremony or participate in the wedding because there are just so many little ones. Instead, she is having a big barbeque the night before that the kids are coming to.


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## TulsiLeaf (Nov 23, 2009)

My husband and I got married 2 years ago and we have a nearly 5 year old. We wanted a child free wedding, but we couldn't find anyone to watch our daughter and we got pressure from family to invite the kids. It was MY wedding and I didn't want to have to watch my daughter. I wanted to have fun. So luckily we only had 2 kids there.

I feel this way. It isn't your wedding, what you want has no merit. If the bride wants a child free wedding, it's her decision and more than likely her pocket book. If you want to go, check the yes button, but if you would rather spend the night with your kids, check the no box. Easy peasy.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmamma* 
Naturally, like many other parents, I too struggle with parenting, but I don't have that desire to be away from my kids and other kids most of the time.

Well, they don't necessarily either. They're just spending time without their kids once in a while for a formal celebration. I think the idea that people who enjoy child-free events want to be away from their kids all the time is coloring your perception.

We often use these events as date nights for us. I believe nurturing my adult relationship with my partner is just as important as my relationship with my children. We plan to have time together with just us, and if we can do that by going to an event someone else planned - and paid for







- then that works out great for us! We don't have to plan another time to get a sitter and then plan something to do.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:

Naturally, like many other parents, I too struggle with parenting, but I don't have that desire to be away from my kids and other kids most of the time.

I don't think that having a few celebrations minus the kids equals a desire to be away from the kids most of the time. Afterall, celebrations are an occasional thing.

And some celebrations are simply not kid appropriate. My neighbors across the street reguarlly have large get togethers in the summer. They call all their family and friends and bbq and create a theme with lots of decorations, etc etc. They do this probably once or twice a month. None of their guests get sitters, everyone brings their kids. The problem with this is that the amount of drinking, hot tubbing and lateness of the parties are simply not kid friendly. DH and I went to one a few years ago and left feeling like we were the oldest two at the party because they party like 22 yr old college students in a frat house. Now provided you handle it in a mature manner-designated drivers, cabs or people staying the night, no one puking in the corners or anything like that, I don't have a problem with anyone enjoying that kind of party.

But when you do it with kids around-not cool. Kids don't need to be exposed to that sort of behavior, and when you are behaving like that, it's awfully hard to ensure that the younger children are being supervised appropriately.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I've never taken my kids to a wedding. Mostly because most of the weddings we go to involve a certain amount of drinking and I don't think my kids need to be around random drunk people. And they are typically at places that aren't exactly kid friendly and I (and them) don't want to spend the entire time keeping them out of the fountain or whatever.

I've never understood why people get offended when they're invited to an event where kids aren't allowed. It's completely up to the people throwing the party and probably has nothing to do with you or you in children in particular.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I never understood the issue that many have with child free events. Some events are simply not ideal for kids no matter how well behaved one thinks their child is. Or the environment is simply not appropriate for kids. Its not just weddings either, certain movies, event meetings ect. I also don't think that when people want a child free event that it means they can't stand to be with their kids. Adult time is much needed and sometimes it really is out of the respect for others as well.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmamma* 
Anyhow, this breaks my heart. Naturally, like many other parents, I too struggle with parenting, but I don't have that desire to be away from my kids and other kids most of the time.

What is so wrong with mixing ages when celebrating (and in other activities)? I so badly want to live in a society where kids are seen as an integral and natural part of an adult-centered world. Or perhaps even be part of a 'not childfree' revolution







. Anyone care to join me?









I actually personally believe it's healthier that at *some* times there be an "adult sphere" and a "family sphere" and even a "child sphere."

Part of the excitement and ritual of growing up is being able to achieve social milestones (old enough to sit at the adults' table, old enough to go the big concert/premiere). Part of the fun of being grown up, too, is having a long conversation without having to cope with the 5 year old interjections. And part of the fun of being young is having a birthday party that's all about kids and not about entertaining the adults.

Not that I think there shouldn't also be events that are for everyone and maybe that's what you're getting at...in which case I agree there should be a variety. But no, I don't think society gains ONLY when everyone is included in everything.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't think there is anything wrong with making weddings or other celebrations family events where everyone attends - even small children - most events we've been to are child-friendly, and if we had had a regular wedding instead of going to Hawaii, we would have certainly allowed children. But, I actually prefer to go places such as weddings without my kids, because I can have more fun and relax and drink and visit without taking care of my LO's (there are four of them, so even with DH there, it can be challenging at non-kid friendly places - such as weddings b/c they don't have toys or places for the kids to run and be wild).


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## MammaG (Apr 9, 2009)

I think the nature of the event will dictate whether or not it's a kid-friendly one. I love kids, I was a nanny when I got married. I debated having a daytime kid-friendly wedding, but DH and I both wanted an all-out black-tie cocktail party (and the wedding service was nearly 2 hours long). Our venue was an only-over-21 one, an art museum policy apparently. But it would have been a totally different thing with kids involved (or even under-21s). We loved it and I think our guests loved it.

Now, I think that where we are in our lives, with three littles and one of them a constantly-nursing 7-month-old, we'd probably simply turn down an invitation like the one to our wedding and celebrate with the couple later with our whole family (maybe invite them hiking with us or on a picnic or for a day at the beach or something). There are times and seasons for everything, you know? I love where we are now and I don't feel I need to overly push the relationships I have with my more kid-free friends...I make sure I stay in touch and will look forward to partying with them again when my kids are older.


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## Triciabn (Nov 6, 2005)

I had a child free wedding. at the time I just saw other peoples kids as little brats...Ill behaved, noisy and obnoxious. I did permit nursing babies and went so far as to prepare a quiet room if a mother needed to nurse or rock a baby. But kids I didn't want there. Two families brought kids...and as I predicted those kids were annoying. They were interruptive and irritating.
I think many parents want their children to be accepted by adults but then raise their kids to think the room Revolves around them in a very child centered way... And that is just not how most social situations work... Or maybe run smoothly. I think it is very much that a few rotten apples spoil it for everyone.
When I was the bride I wouldn't have minded certain kids.... But how can you say,"you and you can come... But you there your child is an ass and not invited"... Talk about socially unacceptable!
Oh and I had an eighteen month old at the time... So kids weren't alien to me.


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## baglady (Jul 13, 2009)

I think, like PPs have said, it's up to the people throwing the party. Most people around here seem to have kid free weddings. At most wedding facilities you pay per person. I don't think it's fair to ask someone to pay $90-100 per head for each one of your kids.

That said, if people want kids there it's up to them. Most weddings aren't kid friendly. Reception halls and hotels where a bunch of adults are mingling/drinking is just a recipe for a whinny rambunctious kid. They get bored.

It's good to get away for a night every once and a while if you can. You'll miss the kids but it's refreshing on many levels.


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## damona (Mar 27, 2008)

i went to a wedding this past saturday. one of my oldest and dearest friends. she not only invited me to bring my kids, she downright insisted on it. frankly, it was one of the most nerve-wracking experiences i've had in a long time. i have 4 hyperactive little boys. the older 2 were alright, but they got bored with all the sitting and waiting and all the speeches and so on, so they got wiggly and whiny. the younger 2 were all over the place. i practically had to sit on my youngest at one point during the ceremony. they talked incessantly, kept trying to wander away, etc. i was a complete wreck by the time we went into the hall for dinner. and the hall itself... oh, horrors! had a stone floor. and there were about 5 zillion glasses and candles and other lovely, delicate, breakable things. also, she had an open bar, so lots of people were drinking lots of things, and leaving the glasses wherever, so i was constantly afraid that i would find one of my kids finishing off someones' scotch or something. i barely ate half my dinner, didn't get a chance to eat the cake, missed the cake cutting completely because someone had to potty... and we left just after the bride and groom had their first dances.

after that experience, i am perfectly okay with child-free weddings!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am all about ditching the kids for some child free time and I do it regularly without guilt. heckyeah. pass me a beer and watch me not have to watch anyone, answer any questions, wipe any butts etc...wooohooooo.

however

a childfree wedding just seems odd to me on some level. but in light of bridezillas and what weddings have become (me-focused, perfectly staged events rather than holy rites and sacrements and a family celebration afterwards....) it makes perfect sense. Not to mention the last few weddings I went to forced you to sit through slide shows and staged shows of affection from the parent (all stuff better saved for the reception if you ask me...ya know, so you can go get soething to drink and ignore it) that it went on for what felt like forever. then they dismissed us one row at a time. rather than do a recpetion line (that one could choose to skip) they went and diosmissed each person one at a time. kids in the crowd would have been misreable. I was....even I was antsy and irritated and wanted to scream and bolt. this seems to be becoming standard stuff though. I don't know that I could in good conscience attend a wedding that intentionally excluded kids. especially my kids. It seems so much to be missing the point. and you expect it to be hyper focused on how great and inlove the couple is (just get married already and save the extra stuff for the reception.) but I don't get invited to many weddings these days so it really doesn't matter. (almost all my friends are already married but don't have kids old enough to be getting married yet and I don't really have family. Its not because people don't like me







)

as for the party, well the host tried. can't fault her and yeah your kids are not going have nearly as good a time without the other kids as they would have. Honestly in your position I would get a sitter. What you are most likely to show others is how annoying children can be to their parents when they are bored out of their minds. and you will spend most of the party entertaining your children yourself (or at least I would, if I take my kids to a party like that I would only be able to enjoy it if there were other kids for them to run around and make mischief with. they would be painfully bored if it were just them.) So it is unfortunate. I can understand why people ditched the kids though. it sounds like a fun party and a lot more fun if they don't have to chase kids.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I like going to child free events. I stopped having neighborhood parties in my home, because I do daycare all day M-F. I didn't like having my playroom trashed by kids on my day off. I want my free time to be childfree in most situations. I'll go anywhere that I don't ever have to take responsibility for the kids though... so across the street, I love to visit those same kids... just not in my house.

However, my own kids are grown, and I am at a different place in life now. If I had young kids of my own, I'd feel differently. But, I think a childfree wedding is fine.

In all honesty... most people want a wedding video without the sounds of talking, fussing or crying kids. Many many parents do not parent their kids. They prefer to let them run around and be kids. But, when you look back at your wedding video, the sound of little Henry crying that he wants to go home isn't what you want to see in 25 years. It's their wedding, and if they want it to be childfree, I wouldn't be at all offended. It's for the bride and groom. Not for the kids of the cousins.


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## Happiestever (May 13, 2007)

I prefer to not go to parties/places where my kids are not welcome. Where I go my kids go, especially since I breastfeed. Then again, I don't drink, smoke or gamble so there really isn't anywhere I want to be that doesn't allow children in the first place. I come as a package deal. My children have just as much of a right to go places as I do, so I seek those places out and disregard the rest.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

There are 2 different issues here - 1) kidfree weddings 2) choosing to get a sitter even though your child is welcome.

1) while I support the right of every bride and groom to have the type of wedding they want I personally prefer the family, informal type of wedding and that is the kind I had.

2) if someone invited me and my child to a formal wedding where there would be a long ceremony, speeches, fancy reception, etc I would probably get a sitter. It just wouldn't be fun for my children or me. If it was a less formal, 'kids are welcome to run around' affair, then I would love to bring my kids because I think children SHOULD be included in weddings.

As a teacher and a mum I LOVE kids, however I totally appreciate non kid time. I've been to end of year faculty parties where people have brought their kids (also our students) and, let me tell you, it really puts a damper on the evening.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I think I'm reading this post differently than most... I don't think that the OPs point was that childfree events are bad or that people shouldn't leave their kids, but that the trend over time is that society is becoming more age-segregated and less inclusive of children. Instead of expecting children to learn to behave appropriately and aspire to eventually take part in adult life, our culture increasingly expects children to take part only in events designed around their interests.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
I think I'm reading this post differently than most... I don't think that the OPs point was that childfree events are bad or that people shouldn't leave their kids, but that the trend over time is that society is becoming more age-segregated and less inclusive of children. Instead of expecting children to learn to behave appropriately and aspire to eventually take part in adult life, our culture increasingly expects children to take part only in events designed around their interests.

While I agree a few things have gone that way (weddings) I actually find it's the reverse from when I was growing up in my area.

I see kids at movies I would consider inappropriate all the time (8 year olds at Splice), kids in pubs and bars (not objecting, just saying they are there), fancy restaurants, opera, and so on. When I was a kid we were left home way more often than seems to be the norm in my area.

Again, not objecting, just saying I don't personally see this as a trend.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
I think I'm reading this post differently than most... I don't think that the OPs point was that childfree events are bad or that people shouldn't leave their kids, but that the trend over time is that society is becoming more age-segregated and less inclusive of children. Instead of expecting children to learn to behave appropriately and aspire to eventually take part in adult life, our culture increasingly expects children to take part only in events designed around their interests.

I wonder what you're basing this on? It seems to me that at least in many western countries, we've become more child friendly. It wasn't long ago--my parents' generation--that children were to be seen and not heard, corporal punishment was the norm, and most people wouldn't think of taking children to a fancy restaurant. In the generations previous to that, people with the means to do so employed full-time nannies, nurses, and even wet nurses, and children were sent away to boarding school at very young ages.

I don't mean to be too off topic and derail this thread, I'm just truly under the impression that the age inclusiveness of which you speak is a much more modern trend, at least in North America and Europe.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
This is probably one of the most frequently revisited debates I see here on MDC. My feeling is this: I absolutely adore children, but I think whomever is throwing the party has a right to chose adults only.

I agree that it's their right. But I would likely not go, and would tell them honestly why I wouldn't be there.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I love doing things with my dd, most of my time is devoted to her and only her. I enjoy bringing her to fun places where she can interact with people of all ages and I don't think that a kid table is a very nice thing to have. I also love going to grown up only things without any children present from time to time. I think it is nice if you and your family really and truly don't ever want to have time away from each other to pursue your own interests, but that isn't for everyone. The childfree wedding does surprise me, but weddings are incredibly boring so it makes sense not to want kids in there crying or babbling while the couple is having a special day that is all about them. It would be nice if everyone thought that our kids and everything about them is as precious and wonderful as we think it is, but that is just not reality. If there was a lot of drinking at the reception they may have made the whole wedding kid free to prevent parents from coming to get drunk with their kids in tow.


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## Skippy918 (Jul 15, 2008)

I was in a wedding for my cousin recently and my son, who's almost 2 was invited, so we brought him. It was in another state, so I couldn't have gotten a babysitter even though I wanted to. Although we had fun, we felt like we spent most of the evening chasing him around on the dance floor. Granted he was having a grand ol time and he was dancing and jumping and running around, so it was cute to watch him. I've got another wedding to go to, but I'm leaving my husband and son home since airfare was $$$$.
A friend of mine is choosing to have no kids at her wedding. She's only inviting 35 ppl. So her sister is po'd that she can't bring her what would be 9 and 3 year old. If we're invited, I'm totally cool with leaving DS with my inlaws for the evening. I want to enjoy myself.
I invited kids of family members to my wedding. I was so caught up in the moment, that I didn't even notice they were there. My cousins were 5, 3 and 1 at the time. I'm sure their parents were exhausted at the end of the night.

I like when DH and I have the opportunity to go out on a date or event without DS in tow. It helps us reconnect and it's so peaceful and we're able to have adult conversations.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
While I agree a few things have gone that way (weddings) I actually find it's the reverse from when I was growing up in my area.

I see kids at movies I would consider inappropriate all the time (8 year olds at Splice), kids in pubs and bars (not objecting, just saying they are there), fancy restaurants, opera, and so on. When I was a kid we were left home way more often than seems to be the norm in my area.

Again, not objecting, just saying I don't personally see this as a trend.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
I wonder what you're basing this on? It seems to me that at least in many western countries, we've become more child friendly. It wasn't long ago--my parents' generation--that children were to be seen and not heard, corporal punishment was the norm, and most people wouldn't think of taking children to a fancy restaurant. In the generations previous to that, people with the means to do so employed full-time nannies, nurses, and even wet nurses, and children were sent away to boarding school at very young ages.

I don't mean to be too off topic and derail this thread, I'm just truly under the impression that the age inclusiveness of which you speak is a much more modern trend, at least in North America and Europe.

I am basing my post on the description of the rise of peer-oriented culture in the book Hold On To Your Kids. The book makes the point that age segregation has never been more common or started earlier.

Everything you say about our parents' generation is true...corporal punishment, seen and not heard, excluded from restaurants. But whole families also worked and played together in ways that are uncommon today. My mom for example grew up working with her siblings in my grandparents' grocery store, came home for school lunches, and most socializing was with extended family or within a tightly knit community rather than mom and dad going off for 'date night.'

Sure our culture is more relaxed nowadays about letting kids into restaurants etc. - but that is a drop in the bucket compared to having a culture that actually _is_ family oriented. The child free wedding is a sign of the times.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 

Everything you say about our parents' generation is true...corporal punishment, seen and not heard, excluded from restaurants. But whole families also worked and played together in ways that are uncommon today. My mom for example grew up working with her siblings in my grandparents' grocery store, came home for school lunches, and most socializing was with extended family or within a tightly knit community rather than mom and dad going off for 'date night.'


I completely disagree that that sort of thing is uncommon. My oldest dd, 14, works at my sister's family owned cake shop, and also works with me when I photograph weddings. I work my own photography business in conjunction with the cake shop.

Socializing...I called my brother up just the other day to see if he wanted to bring his kids over to run through the sprinkler with my younger one. Next weekend, I am going with my mom to Chicago for my grandmother's birthday. The weekend after that, my brother is holding a big bbq with all our family and SIL's family, and then the weekend after that, a party for his two little ones with all our family (their birthdays are a week apart, so they are sharing a party this year.) Two weeks ago, WE did a bbq with all of our family for DH's birthday and the week before that, we had a grad party for dd1 graduating 8th grade. One of my siblings is almost always out at my parents to go swimming.

As I mentioned in my previous post, my neighbor across the street regularly has large family BBQs and get togethers (even if I don't feel they are kid friendly, they are certainly focusing on family socializing.) My neighbor next door also frequently has their family over. I don't think that these families are a rarity, it's been my experience that the opposite is true. I don't feel like society in general is moving towards seperating the kids from the adults any more. In fact, if anything, I think too many people are trying to force their kids into situations where kids shouldn't be.

I think it's perfectly fine to want to induldge in adult behavior such as drinking or gambling or smoking or whatever, on occasion. I don't have a problem with people wanting to get together and get drunk (responsibly of course) or wanting to all hang out in the hot tub and make out with their significant others or whatever. But, IMO, those type of things simply aren't kid appropriate. And your 3 year old shouldn't be left up until 1am and forced to sleep in a strange house just because you are too drunk to get her to bed at a reasonable hour. A 7 year old shouldn't be stuck hanging out at a wedding until 11pm or so, if they really are used to an 8pm bed time, because you want to continue celebrating with the bride and groom.

And, I am ALL about hanging out with kids. My own wedding was VERY kid friendly, with even some specifically kid oriented songs played for dancing at the reception (my dd was 6 at the time of my wedding.) I can't think of a single "event" (using that word VERY loosely) that I have hosted that wasn't open to kids and very kid friendly, because I enjoy that sort of stuff. But I also enjoy an evening at the casino once in a while. I enjoy DH whipping up a frozen acoholic beverage and getting a little buzz once in a while too. Those are things that aren't kid appropriate at all. I think it's perfectly acceptable to have and enjoy both celebrations that are designed with kids in mind and celebrations that are designed to exclude children. What I don't find acceptable is behaving in adult oriented ways, that kids shouldn't have to be exposed to, at an event that has kids there.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
I am basing my post on the description of the rise of peer-oriented culture in the book Hold On To Your Kids. The book makes the point that age segregation has never been more common or started earlier.

Everything you say about our parents' generation is true...corporal punishment, seen and not heard, excluded from restaurants. But whole families also worked and played together in ways that are uncommon today. My mom for example grew up working with her siblings in my grandparents' grocery store, came home for school lunches, and most socializing was with extended family or within a tightly knit community rather than mom and dad going off for 'date night.'

Sure our culture is more relaxed nowadays about letting kids into restaurants etc. - but that is a drop in the bucket compared to having a culture that actually _is_ family oriented. The child free wedding is a sign of the times.

Yeah...I've read that book and although I agree with some of it, I also think it's a bit of a fear-mongering "sell" - most especially in the parts where it tries to make the case that society is broken, broken, broken.

I'm sure it does depend on your community but anecdotally, in mine families are spending _way_ more time together on everyone's goals from soccer to volunteer work than we ever did when I was growing up. When my _mother_ was growing up her mother used to literally _lock_ them out of the house after school and on weekends and tell them to go play down the street.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

I think where the disagreement comes in, is that it would be a class issue. Upper class children were absolutely excluded from "life in general"-- left to be raised by nannies and nurses, not taken along when parents were socializing, boarding schools, etc. Probably lower class children were a lot more often with the parents in any kind of socializing.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I am always surprised when people long for the good ol' days when children were welcome everywhere. I don't think that's true at all. Certainly my parents and their friends were more than happy to leave us with grandparents, sitters, willing cousins or aunts, and go out for the night. Regularly. Or take weekend trips without us. I didn't go to weddings or showers till my friends were old enough to start getting married and having babies. I think this idea of taking your kids EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME is new. Certainly I have heard my mother, grandmother, great aunts, etc talking about how people don't know when to leave their kids at home.

I think it's just normal and natural that not all events are family friendly or kid-appropriate. Not everyone has kids or wants to do kid-friend stuff all the time. Can't see the problem with that. If that does not appeal to you, decline the invitations.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yeah...I've read that book and although I agree with some of it, I also think it's a bit of a fear-mongering "sell" - most especially in the parts where it tries to make the case that society is broken, broken, broken.

I'm sure it does depend on your community but anecdotally, in mine families are spending _way_ more time together on everyone's goals from soccer to volunteer work than we ever did when I was growing up. When my _mother_ was growing up her mother used to literally _lock_ them out of the house after school and on weekends and tell them to go play down the street.

I think I wanna live where you live (and that's the first time I ever said that about Toronto.)







It's also hugely dependent on income level.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I don't understand why people on either side of this issue get their knickers in a twist.

I've got no problem with child-free weddings. The people throwing the party get to set the guest list.

That said, an invitation is not a command performance. The people getting the invitation get to decide if they want to go.

We have declined many invitations where our kids aren't included. We politely send our regrets and send a nice gift. We aren't offended and we hope the couple isn't, either.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmamma* 
So now I'm considering leaving my own kids at home since I imagine it would be boring for them with no other kids around. But I am tempted to bring them to show the other parents (most of whom I've never met) that including my kids at a party is doable, and actually enjoyable.

They are probably very aware that it is doable and may be enjoyable, however maybe they would like some time to have conversations from beginning to end with no interruptions. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Just another vote for, well, who cares? Its their party/wedding/whatever and they get to decide if kids are OK or not. DH & I love to go out togethe *WITHOUT* the kids every now and then - probably only happens, maybe once a month but its *SO* nice to be w/o the boys every now and then. I love my kids. I do. But I also love my husband and time w/ *JUST* him - at the bar, the movies, disc golfing, whatever - is wonderful too.

And... yeah, my parents left us as about the same amount as we leave our kids, I think. And I too, never went to a wedding untill my friends were old enough to get married! And I've still only been to a handful. And if someone gets married soon and doesn't want kids? Fine. Thats what baby sitters, aunts, uncles, and grandparents are for!


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
Well, they don't necessarily either. They're just spending time without their kids once in a while for a formal celebration. I think the idea that people who enjoy child-free events want to be away from their kids all the time is coloring your perception.

We often use these events as date nights for us. I believe nurturing my adult relationship with my partner is just as important as my relationship with my children. We plan to have time together with just us, and if we can do that by going to an event someone else planned - and paid for







- then that works out great for us! We don't have to plan another time to get a sitter and then plan something to do.

Ditto. Honestly I wouldn't want to bring DD to a wedding or similar event. It would simply to way too stressful to keep her entertained. She was the flower girl at my sisters wedding last year and I was quite happy to send her to my SIL's during the reception. DH and I had a great time and had a chance to have a "date". I had been looking forward to that night for months.

I went to a few weddings as a child and I found them really boring. The ceremonies seemed endless, the speeches were over my head and once the dancing started I was getting tired and cranky. I suppose it would be different if the wedding was really catering to kids but I have never been to one with children that caters to them beyond offering a kids meal.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
I think I wanna live where you live (and that's the first time I ever said that about Toronto.)







It's also hugely dependent on income level.

LOL. I love my part of Toronto - not very ritzy (Scarborough) but _very_ family-friendly. You go to pretty much any beach or park or the zoo or even to the Science Centre or ROM on the weekend and there are families out having fun together, and the food bank where I used to volunteer is all families too.







I grew up about 20 minutes away, but I freely admit that was *cough* quite a while ago.

It could well be an upper-working-class to middle-middle-class thing in my area.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmamma* 
But I am tempted to bring them to show the other parents (most of whom I've never met) that including my kids at a party is doable, and actually enjoyable.

Anyhow, this breaks my heart. Naturally, like many other parents, I too struggle with parenting, but I don't have that desire to be away from my kids and other kids most of the time.

I think you're reading way to much into other parents' actions. I am a SAHM and my DH works from home. We're both here for everything. We love our kids, love spending time with them, take them with us to a huge variety of events, but we would most likely leave them with a babysitter if someone asked us to a local wedding. Because we also enjoy getting out with adults now and again. So I don't think there is a lesson you need to teach other parents.


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## mummyofan (Jun 25, 2008)

haven't read any yet, but italy is THE place to go for child friendly living!
I'm the same that even before children at our wedding we asked families to bring their children, and we ALLL had great fun (they really help you laugh!) and I always ask if children are welcome to events that are unclear on that as obviously that would be bad......
hmmmm, America is not great at doing children 'out' Britain is and france is on the whole... most of Europe is actually!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
When my _mother_ was growing up her mother used to literally _lock_ them out of the house after school and on weekends and tell them to go play down the street.

My MIL did this, and it was fairly standard in their neighborhood. After breakfast, kids were shut out of the house. She brought out snacks, lunch, and they came in to get washed up for dinner.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berry987* 
I think you're reading way to much into other parents' actions. I am a SAHM and my DH works from home. We're both here for everything. We love our kids, love spending time with them, take them with us to a huge variety of events, but we would most likely leave them with a babysitter if someone asked us to a local wedding. Because we also enjoy getting out with adults now and again. So I don't think there is a lesson you need to teach other parents.

ITA with this, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. So does my husband. But, I also need and cherish the very limited adult time I do get away from them once in a while. So do lots of other adults/parents. It doesn't say anything about my capacity to enjoy and appreciate my kids, or anyone else's kids for that matter, nor is it a negative reflection of my parenting skills or abilities.

The simple fact is that children can and usually do hamper one's ability to enjoy other adult company. Adult conversation is often either over children's head or simply inappropriate for them to overhear. Children often need ongoing adult supervision in such a way that makes it pretty darn difficult for parents to enjoy or even have meaningful interactions with other adults.

I can understand that some parents don't share my need to have child free time, or crave interaction with other adults sans kiddies like I do. Whenever I do feel the need to have kid free time I make sure to schedule it with other like minded adults or in a child free setting so that nobody is upset by the circumstances of the get together. And then hope that nobody gets offended by being left out.


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