# WWYD Harry Potter or vacation w/ dad??



## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Ok, here's the situation. My almost 11 yr old son's father lives four hours away (as well as his father's mother, brother, and brother's wife and two tiny kids), and my son sees him fairly often. We were just down there last month for a few days, it was fun. My son's father and i have a great relationship, no problems there. His mother however tends to be a little (ok a lot)controlling and passive aggressive.

So his mother is always planning trips near and far. My son has been to London twice (both times without me), and a bunch of other places. So Grandma planned a trip to the Smoky Mountains with ds, his dad, the uncle and his family (baby and toddler, plus wife)....i said fine, he could go, my son didnt really care one way or the other. He'd generally prefer not to go on vacations or anywhere else with them, only because i'm not there and they have a totally different style then us. (I am more respectful, we're unschoolers, i dont yell at him, etc, plus we have our routine, like reading together, cosleeping, i know what he likes and doesnt like and they are sorta out of touch with all of that. But they are basically ok)...but my son is easygoing and he was going to go. Its only for like five or six days.

The problem is, that the vacation is running from July 18th to July 24th or so. That means that my son will be gone on July 20th.

Do you know what July 20th is??? At midnight??? Ack, Harry Potter release party.







We've been planning this for ages (all year), looking forward to it and talking about it for the past couple of months. I mean, its a big deal. Now my son doesnt want to go on this trip that he didnt particularly want to go to in the first place. We had planned on going to Borders for the pre-release party, getting our book that we reserved, and staying in all weekend reading it (while avoiding all media that might post any spoilers)....we've read all the other books outloud, have seen all the movies. We are FANS. This is the LAST book, the last chance to ever experience Not Knowing What Happens.

My son's father was not happy to hear this....mostly because he is afraid of his mother and doesnt want to deal with that fallout. He wants ME to call her to tell her (um, no thanks.) Now i feel like i'm supposed to make my son go on the trip, but i dont want to. At the same time i did agree to the trip...but i didnt realize the dates, and that they conflicted with our plans. Its not like the rest of them can't go, S. just wont go...they can still go and have fun.

So....am I wrong? Should i try to convince my son to go? He goes on vacation with them all the time. He wants to stay here. His dad offered to find a bookstore in TN and get the book for him and everything, but as my son said "its not the same"....

WWYD??

Katherine


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

tough one.. sorry, I have no insight.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

How would your ds get to this vacation? Why not just keep him for the first half (so you and he can go to the release party at midnight on the 20th, then read the book together for a day or so) and then take him/send him/? to meet up with the vacation party?


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
How would your ds get to this vacation? Why not just keep him for the first half (so you and he can go to the release party at midnight on the 20th, then read the book together for a day or so) and then take him/send him/? to meet up with the vacation party?

His father would be coming up to where we live on Wednesday, driving right back to where he lives (so an eight hour round trip car ride), and then they are leaving for TN Thurs. morning (i'm not sure how long it takes to drive there from OH)....there would be no way for me to get him there, other than driving him myself which i am not willing to do because #1 its too far for my crappy little car to go #2 i have to work. I'm pretty sure it would take many many hours to drive from MI to TN. And my son will have missed almost two full days or more of the vacation, so doesnt seem worth it. Although i did think about it.

Katherine


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Since he can read the book when he gets home I would lean towards the vacation. I think spending time with a parent would be more important than reading a book (and I LOVE to read, although not really a HP fan) on the day it came out.

You could always overnight the book to him.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_i have to go with harry potter...but my judgement gets pretty cloudly when it comes to H.P....._


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

I wouldn't make him go, especially if it isn't going to cause any problems with his dad. The grandma can get over it!


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
vacation. i actually assumed the thread title was a joke.

it sounds like you don't want your son to go, and that you think his father gets to see him enough. i wouldn't agree.

that part of the family is your son's family too. and while you seem to think that they go on vacation "all the time", it doesn't seem like they actually see him all that much. just down there last month for a few days.. so he sees them maybe a few days each month? that's not that often.

i don't know. maybe your son's father doesn't actually want to be involved in parenting his son. it sounds like he does, though, and you should give him that opportunity. maybe there's more here though that i'm not seeing.

xoa









:


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

You and your DS had made plans first. It doesn't matter if your plans and the vacation don't seem equal in some people's eyes. I think if your DS prefers to keep the plans he and you already made, that is perfectly reasonable. I'd definitely go with what he decides.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

ask your ds - i feel the whole hp party for the last book is a once in a lifetime thing, i am going with my ds we are so excited. its not about getting the book immediately is all about the experience and looking back in years to come and being able to tell the grandchildren about it. i wouldnt want tomiss it for the world.

see what your ds thinks.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

true - i guess it is just special for me as i do not get the opportunity to do things alone with my eldest very often, so i guess i am really rather excited about it







: it also sounds as if it is very special to the op - she says they have been planning this all year, and that her son is not bothered about the trip.... i just think that even though holidays are important we mustnt underestimate the importance of these other events just because they are not important to other people.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

I think this book release is a one time deal, and that he sees and vacations with his extended family quite often. It also sounds like what both you and your soon want, so I vote book release.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_i have to go with harry potter...but my judgement gets pretty cloudly when it comes to H.P....._

Hehe, I agree. It sounds like his dad doesn't mind, so I would go with keeping him home for this trip and making an effort for him and his dad to get together shortly after.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

*Book party! Absolutely. No question about it.*

Your son is into it. This is what is more important to him. This is what you do.

The Smokey mountains will be there for him to visit in the future. It's not like he doesn't go on trips with his extended family and Dad all the time. If he's been to London twice I would think the chances of seeing TN again are pretty good too.

IMO a trip that you are not interested in is not something that will necessarily be some thing to tell the grand kids about. Plus as an unschooler you follow your kids interest...that's what kids get the most out of.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
vacation. i actually assumed the thread title was a joke.

it sounds like you don't want your son to go, and that you think his father gets to see him enough. i wouldn't agree.

that part of the family is your son's family too. and while you seem to think that they go on vacation "all the time", it doesn't seem like they actually see him all that much. just down there last month for a few days.. so he sees them maybe a few days each month? that's not that often.

i don't know. maybe your son's father doesn't actually want to be involved in parenting his son. it sounds like he does, though, and you should give him that opportunity. maybe there's more here though that i'm not seeing.

xoa

The OP didn't say that the father's side of the family wasn't part of his family, and she didn't say his father didn't want to parent him. The OP said she has a great relationship with her son's father and that he was ok with her ds not going on the vacation....Please don't turn this thread into a "Father's Rights" thread. Maybe read her original post again.

She and her ds made these HP plans before the vacation was planned, her ds wants to go to the HP party, not the vacation, he is 11 and old enough to decide, even in the courts eyes.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

He is 11 and old enough to decide what to do. If he wants to go to the release party, then I can't blame him, I'm going myself dragging along little nursing DD2 as well.







: The HP party is once in a lifetime, it's more then just getting a book, it's getting a book at the EXACT same time as everyone else across the country and then going home and reading yourself silly all weekend.







: As a lifelong bookworm, I could only imagine how excited I would be as a child, let's just say that I would be not thrilled in the least to have to go on a vacation instead of the book and party I had been planning on all year. Good luck, I can see how this put you in a hard spot.


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## WatermelonSnow (Feb 15, 2007)

I think of the book release party as a vacation for you and DS, one that you had planned well in advance of them informing you of the dates of their trip. It is a special, once in a lifetime event that you both have eagerly anticipated for a long time and the fact that you're not travelling somewhere to do it doesn't make it less valuable than an event that involves travel.

It's perfectly acceptable to tell the ex that you have long-standing plans for those dates and that you'd be happy to arrange another time for DS to be with him. It doesn't sound at all like you are trying to minimize DS's time with his father, just that there happens to be a scheduling conflict on this one weekend.

I bet some of ex's behavior toward you is rooted in his anxiety about having to tell his mother. That's entirely his issue to deal with, it's just too bad that he's taking it out on you.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Thanks everyone for your replies! I'm going on vacation here in a minute (thats another thing, we are getting back from going up north on tuesday, and ds would be leaving to go south on wed...thats alot of vacation!)...and wont have internet there, but wanted to reply.

DS told me last night that he absolutely wanted to go to the book party, but that if i "made" him go on vacation he would go. The reason i'm feeling bad about it, is because i am the one that forgot that "next fri" and "the 20th which is the HP release date" were the same freakin' friday....and they may have possibly picked different dates if i had realized. So i feel guilty about that. And generally i'm one to think "well we made a committment, so lets stick to it"...if it was ANY other year besides the LAST year for HP, i would tell him we'll just read the book when he comes back. Yes, we can read it later, but i'm really afraid the "magic" will be gone, or reduced, esp since his dad isnt the type to look out to avoid spoilers and whatnot. Indeed, he'd be more likely to say "Oh, hey i found out what happened....Harry dies!!!" or some such thing. My son doesnt read the books on his own (although he could), i read them to him. Its a tradition.

I know his dad doesnt see him as often as he'd like...although personally, i dont feel its my fault. He comes up here (four hr drive)as much as he can, which is probably every couple of months. DS goes down there too (which he doesnt really like, but deals with)...and they go on vacations quite frequently. So in his mind, this is just another vacation he didnt really want to go on, and isnt that excited about. The dad didnt particularly want to go either, but no one can say "no" to Grandma (except me: "No, i'm not putting my son in school. No, i'm not following a curriculum. No, my son does not want to go on a train trip across Russia for 10 days. Sorry!") I bowed into them when my son was four, and i let them take him to London for over a week (that was traumatic.) But i digress....

Yes, HP release parties are all about gathering with other fans, waiting til midnight, rushing home and holding that book in your hands. Its amazing to me that all of those theories about "what will happen" will (hopefully!) be answered this time next week. (I Trust Severus Snape!!!







)

But i do agree that seeing his father is important for my son---there arent any courts involved or anything, no set visitation, no child support...we just kind of work it out. DS' dad is coming to visit in a couple weeks time anyway, and he's coming with us to the Unschooling Conference in Sept (or so he says), and then we'll probably go back down there to OH in October.

I still feel bad about him not going though, esp since i know that "grandma" is going to be upset, probably offer to fly him down there on saturday...luckily i will be out of reach all weekend, no cell phone, no computer, so she cant call me begging.

We (son, myself, son's dad)have already been to TN once, years ago, and going again is possible. My son has been lots of places...sometimes just with his dad, sometimes with his dad and grandma, sometimes with my family, and sometimes with just his dad and me. He's been on vacation more with his dad and grandma than even me i think. San Fransisco, LA, FL, Mackinac Island, Chicago, MO several times, London, Paris, DC...i'm probably forgetting a bunch. So i'm sure my son views getting the last HP book as way more 'once in a lifetime' than vacation with grandma which will probably happen again next year (actually undoubtedly happen)...

Anyway, thanks again!
Katherine


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## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
i actually assumed the thread title was a joke.

it sounds like you don't want your son to go, and that you think his father gets to see him enough. i wouldn't agree.









: IMO, you should encourage your son to honor the commitment he made and to value the time with his father.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000* 
ask your ds - i feel the whole hp party for the last book is a once in a lifetime thing, i am going with my ds we are so excited. its not about getting the book immediately is all about the experience and looking back in years to come and being able to tell the grandchildren about it. i wouldnt want tomiss it for the world.

see what your ds thinks.











This is the very last time your Ds will be able to attend an HP release party. The smoky mountains will still be there is a few weeks. Plus I have a gigantic problem with people who make plans and don't bother to inform anyone then get all bent out of place if you can't agree to the plans. If someone had called you way back when they were planning this you could have told them you had plans with Ds already. It really was rude and incosiderate on their part to not do this.
My vote? Harry Potter, and DS's dad can tell granny that next time she plans a trip for your Ds she better call first and make sure the dates are OK


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## absinthe (Mar 16, 2004)

The grandma did confer w/the original poster about the dates. The op was confused and didn't realize that they conflicted. She has stated that grandma would probably have been flexible about the dates if she had been informed. For me that is where the conflict lies. The OP at least tacitly approved those dates and several people went to some amount of trouble to plan a trip around those dates. If I was the grandma it wouldn't really feel like a family trip without my grandson. On the other hand it seems unfair to make her son miss his book release because his mom flaked on the dates. I don't know what the op should do, but it seems unavoidable that someone will justifiably feel hurt no matter what.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *absinthe* 
The grandma did confer w/the original poster about the dates. The op was confused and didn't realize that they conflicted. She has stated that grandma would probably have been flexible about the dates if she had been informed. For me that is where the conflict lies. The OP at least tacitly approved those dates and several people went to some amount of trouble to plan a trip around those dates. If I was the grandma it wouldn't really feel like a family trip without my grandson. On the other hand it seems unfair to make her son miss his book release because his mom flaked on the dates. I don't know what the op should do, but it seems unavoidable that someone will justifiably feel hurt no matter what.









: i misread and hadnt realised the op had actually been consulted on dates i thought it had been booked up without her prior knowledge. i would talk to ds and then talk to his grandmother, telling her of the dilemma and try and work out a compromise together that will make everybody happy. i hope that his grandmother will be understanding about the problem and work with you to find a solution.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Argh.

I hate when people just assume that something THEY aren't passionate about isn't really a big deal to other people. _Harry Potter? Just a children's book, right? Who cares if he reads it a few days later?_

Well, clearly the CHILD cares. He already had plans with his mom to read the book. It's a big deal to him. And, seriously, reading the book a week or two later basically means he's going to find out how it ends (which is pretty much the best-kept literary secret of the decade) from somebody else. It's THAT big a part of pop culture.

Waiting that long would be like videotaping the Superbowl and hoping nobody tells you who won for two weeks. A serious fan would never do that.

Same thing here. If the child's dad knows and respects the child and his wishes, he'll totally understand why he wants to skip the trip.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Yeah what the above poster said.

Just because it';s not important to some doesn't mean it isn't for the child and his thoughts and feelings should be taken into consideration over grandma's, sorry. its' an honest mistake to make and if the grandma(extended family) was considerate the still have enough time to possible alter plans to include all.

From a woman who changed her own vacation plans by two days to accommodate this book release date and my Dh completely understood.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't envy you the decision.

For me, I would pick relationships over events. I would see it as a call between fostering relationship with extended family over what is essentially a marketing tool - I love HP, but the release party to me is just that, a marketing event.

BUT that is me. You know your child and his life, and whatever you decide, the process of deciding will teach him a lot.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
You and your DS had made plans first. It doesn't matter if your plans and the vacation don't seem equal in some people's eyes. I think if your DS prefers to keep the plans he and you already made, that is perfectly reasonable. I'd definitely go with what he decides.

That seems reasonable to me.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Your son doesn't want to go as he already has plans.

IMO end of story

When a person has looked forward to something for so longggggg IMO it wrong to change plans unless of course that person wants to.


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## bumperbee (Apr 7, 2007)

Don't they have book release parties in TN? Could Dad and DS start the book... go halfway through, and then the two of you could finish it together? Then maybe after you two finish the books you can have your own little party or something.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
For me, I would pick relationships over events.

I see this particular event as enhancing the relationship between the OP and her son. This is a once in a lifetime thing that they both are very excited about and are going to share together. That's a big deal. It's the stuff that memories are made of.

I'd go with the release party. Your son is 11. The HP plans came first and he's expressed what he really wants. Those would be the determining factors for me. Yes, you messed up by not remembering the dates, but that happens and it shouldn't be irrevocable. I *would*, however, suck it up and call Grandma. You're the one who made the mistake so it shouldn't be on your son's father to fix it.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I do think that if you phrased this, "Son's favorite fantasy novel event or vacation with his father?" some of the answers would have been different. That's just a guess, though.

Here are my thoughts.

First, he should have an opportunity to bond with you. But, if I've interpreted this correctly, you have full custody. So it is not as hard for him to find time to spend time with you. So that is one point for him going with dad.

Second of all, I do think that we have obligations to the grandparents of the child. Not only dad but grandmother wants to spend time with the child and wants to share discovery with him. They consulted with you. They had their dates straight. You need to respect that.

Third, in my opinion, national parks are a much bigger deal than a fantasy series. But it's not my choice, so my opinion here is not really the point.

On the other hand, your son has expressed his opinion. He wants to do the release. He would go with his dad, but only if you made him. 11 is old enough to make that kind of decision.

I think that you should call the grandmother (it's your fault that they didn't choose other dates) and your son should speak to his dad afterwards about his decision.

It will be painful and awkward and embarrassing (for both of you) but c'est la vie.

If you are not willing to do that then your son should go with his grandparents. You either take responsibility for what you decide, or you make a different decision.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

I know your family has already made its decision. And that someone will justifiably have their feelings hurt no matter which way you go. Here's the thing -

I think you should be the one to explain to Grandma. It was your mistake, not your son's father's mistake. Yes Grandma set up all the plans, but just because she loves traveling with her grandson and is strong-willed doesn't really make her too demanding in this case. It was a totally innocent mistake (one that I would probably make myself!







), but you did make a mistake that will deprive her of the anticipated company of her grandson - on a trip she set up partly for that very purpose. Despite his frequent travel with her, you still get to raise your son daily, and she and his father get to "see" him every few months - not really the same thing (as you know). I think ya gotta at least apologize yourself! (Sorry, I know that isn't a nice answer to hear







: ).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bumperbee* 
Don't they have book release parties in TN? Could Dad and DS start the book... go halfway through, and then the two of you could finish it together? Then maybe after you two finish the books you can have your own little party or something.

Is this a possibility? -- although I'm inclined to think Dad should be willing to read DS the WHOLE book, practically at one sitting, if that's what DS wants.

Is Grandma respectful enough that she'd allow them to do this guilt-free, with no little quips about all the beautiful outdoorsy-stuff they're missing? No "I planned and paid for all this -- and now you're reading a book and wasting this wonderful time I prepared for you" [email protected]?

I wouldn't encourage your ds to go if you think there's any likelihood his passion for HP books won't be respected. You mention that your son's father is likely to spoil it for him by telling him how it ends before he can read it. If he's that clueless, I have concerns that he WON'T respect your son's feelings on this issue.

Also, it's bizarre to me that on learning from you that the trip coincided with the release party, Dad didn't automatically do some checking to see about release-parties near the vacation-spot. To me, that's what an in-tune parent would do. .


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, and if it seems they won't respect your son's need to get the book right away and read the whole thing nonstop -- then yes, _you_ should call Grandma and say, "I'm so sorry I screwed up the dates ... ds and I have a prior engagement and he can't go ... I don't blame you for being mad, I'll be more careful about checking our schedule in the future..."

Let her rant a little, then make some excuse to hang up; she'll recover in time. And enjoy your Harry Potter weekend with your son!


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

Leave it up to you son.

Ask him to decide what he wants to do. Then support his choice one way or the other. He's old enough to make this choice, imo.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"Also, it's bizarre to me that on learning from you that the trip coincided with the release party, Dad didn't automatically do some checking to see about release-parties near the vacation-spot. To me, that's what an in-tune parent would do. ."

I just have to say, that there are millions of us who had no idea that they were having Harry Potter release parties, or that even if one person might have one, that these are a nationwide phenomenon. So I don't think that it's particularly disrespectful not to go out and find one.

The dad in this situation might have thought it was a private party, not a public event. I'm just speculating but I was surprised myself to see that they were having release parties. Odd.

But then, I read half of the first book before I put it down, utterly bored and disappointed. I have to say that if my kid chose the book over me, I'd feel really, really hurt, even though I could understand how a child could get caught up in all that hype.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

At 11, I would leave it up to your ds.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
that these are a nationwide phenomenon.

actually its international - there will be parties everywhere, especially the uk (the home of harry potter







)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, right, of course, sorry about that.







I am on a listserv for Afghanistan, and they are also having books flown in at midnight after the release, from Dubai, I guess. Maybe they will also have a party. Crazy.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

thats ok







my ds started reading hp in march - and has now read them all, in fact a few of them twice. i never thought he would be into hp enough by the age of 6 to warrant getting the last book at midnight, but he is now hp mad and we are both so excited and cannot wait


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

sorry haven't read everything . .

I don't like harry potter, never gotten the hype but holy cow. even I was really excited when I saw that I got to work the release party (regular shift) and then realized that I had asked for that night off and was totally bummed.

I think this is an easy choice. The vacation sounds cool but it also sounds like this sort of thing happens often. and who wants to be around a crabby 11 year old. while he might tolerate this sort of thing with good humor most of the time this does not sound like a small thing. And forcing him to go when going means missing something this important to him could just cause resentment later down the road. I know it cause huge rifts between my dad and I (to the point that i completely cut off visitation) because I wanted to go to this church thing (and I am sure a lot of people would have thought it was lame but everyone went and everyone got super pumped about it and I was sick of not being a part of it) and he thought me staying wit him was more important.

I say do the release party. call grandma and apologize profusely (you did drop the ball here, it should be you that calls) and explain the ds already had plans that you had forgotten about.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
"Also, it's bizarre to me that on learning from you that the trip coincided with the release party, Dad didn't automatically do some checking to see about release-parties near the vacation-spot. To me, that's what an in-tune parent would do. ."

I just have to say, that there are millions of us who had no idea that they were having Harry Potter release parties, or that even if one person might have one, that these are a nationwide phenomenon. So I don't think that it's particularly disrespectful not to go out and find one.

The dad in this situation might have thought it was a private party, not a public event. I'm just speculating but I was surprised myself to see that they were having release parties. Odd.

You're right, I _was_ being rather hard on the dad for not looking into the possibility of other release parties. It might not have occurred to me to think of that, either.

I think I just reacted to the OP's statement, that this Dad would likely ruin it for his son by telling him what happened before he'd had a chance to read it himself. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking that was okay --

but, being a bookworm, it's hard for me to imagine anyone thinking the purpose of reading is just to get a synopsis of what happened. I guess there really are people out there who are satisfied just knowing enough to converse about popular books, and don't necessarily want to live and breathe the story.

Quote:

But then, I read half of the first book before I put it down, utterly bored and disappointed. I have to say that if my kid chose the book over me, I'd feel really, really hurt, even though I could understand how a child could get caught up in all that hype.
I don't see it as choosing the book over his dad: it's not like Dad's in the hospital drawing his last breath, and he's saying the release party matters more than getting to see his dad one last time.

It's not the son's fault that the dad chooses to live four hours away. And I'm not saying it's wrong for him to live where he lives. I just don't think it's fair to expect any extra "sacrificing" from the child, just because the parents don't live in close proximity to one another.

And from the OP, it doesn't sound like the dad is playing these kinds of games with his son -- but if anyone IS, then it's wrong.


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

I say HP party. For one thing, it's what your son wants to do. And I would be personally very very upset and bitter if something I had looked forward to for a long time was taken away and over-ruled for something else. And while Grandma sounds perfectly nice if overbearing, it also sounds like this vacation was kinda short notice (i.e. not planned and anticipated for a long time) if the phrasing was "next Friday." I agree you should call and apologize profusely; I'm terrible with dates and am always screwing them up, but it was your mistake. But your son shouldn't have to pay the price. And really, if he was forced to do this, I think in the long run it might damage his relationship with his father (and you)


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## terrordactyl (Jul 19, 2006)

i wouldn't make him go since it is his decision. say you are sorry but you forgot you already had plans end of story


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## PiePie (Oct 2, 2006)

unless this visit with dad is court-ordered, you need to honor your previous plans to your son.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I don't see it as choosing the book over his dad: it's not like Dad's in the hospital drawing his last breath, and he's saying the release party matters more than getting to see his dad one last time."

The book's not going to disappear at 12:01, either. The child prefers to spend time reading the book with his mom than vacationing with his dad. That's it. It is a preference. It is a choice. It might not sound nice, but that's what he prefers, and that's what he chooses. He'll never be 11 and have the chance to go to the Ozarks again with his dad (an opportunity many kids would dream of).

"I just don't think it's fair to expect any extra "sacrificing" from the child, just because the parents don't live in close proximity to one another."

I guess that's where I see this differently. Is it such a huge sacrifice to put off reading a book for a week while you spend time with your family? It's just a book, but family is people.

Again, I would respect my son's decision. But I would be hurt. I think that the media has put up this hype surrounding this particular series, but that in the end, it's a fictional story with fictional characters, and we as people should prioritize real people.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

izobelle - Shouldn't the experience with mom be a priority, too? It's not as though dad's the only parent who it's important for the child to have unique experiences with.

Hype or not, it's a really big deal for some people specifically because they love the stories and the communal experience of being around hundreds or more of other fans. Kind of like a concert for the band you've loved for years and years and never seen.

Anyway, I don't see this trip as such a rare occurence. Maybe he'll never again be 11 and go to the Ozarks, but he may be 12 or 13 and go to the Ozarks.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

Now my son doesnt want to go on this trip that he didnt particularly want to go to in the first place.
Well there you go. He doesn't want to go. You had plans already. Sounds like they go on vacations together all the time. I say book party.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Dragonfly, absolutely, the experience with mom is important. However, I do think that if we are talking about his seeing his dad once per month (and it's not clear what the visitation schedule is, but that's what it sounds like), then don't you think that you would prioritize dad when he comes by?

"Hype or not, it's a really big deal for some people specifically because they love the stories and the communal experience of being around hundreds or more of other fans."

I am not denying that it's a really big deal, especially to an eleven-year-old who has his heart set on it. BUT- it doesn't change the fact that if it were my child who chose a communal celebration of a fantasy novel over spending time with me on a special trip I'd planned, I would still be hurt.

"Maybe he'll never again be 11 and go to the Ozarks, but he may be 12 or 13 and go to the Ozarks."

And he could read Harry Potter next week with his mom when he gets back. I simply do not see the whole Harry Potter experience as something that is intrinsically valuable to a child's development. Being part of a communal celebration of a commercial enterprise to me is not an ideal thing to get all excited about. I have done it, don't get me wrong, but if there's anything about my life that I regret, it's standing in line for hours to see the premier of the Star Wars re-release so that I could be "first" and "part of the phenomenon". Or no. It was the purchasing of New Kids on the Block merchandise. Granted, Harry Potter is way better than NKOTB (wasn't it awful when they took up just the initials of the name? ugh) by any measure. But you get the picture. I just don't think something is special because millions of people around the world are doing it. And the book, in and of itself, can be read at any time. You don't have to be first to enjoy it.

He didn't ask me. He wants to do Harry Potter. Again I say that I would respect that but that he should tell his dad and that mom should tell Grandma.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
"I don't see it as choosing the book over his dad: it's not like Dad's in the hospital drawing his last breath, and he's saying the release party matters more than getting to see his dad one last time."

The book's not going to disappear at 12:01, either. The child prefers to spend time reading the book with his mom than vacationing with his dad. That's it. It is a preference. It is a choice. It might not sound nice, but that's what he prefers, and that's what he chooses. He'll never be 11 and have the chance to go to the Ozarks again with his dad (an opportunity many kids would dream of).

"I just don't think it's fair to expect any extra "sacrificing" from the child, just because the parents don't live in close proximity to one another."

I guess that's where I see this differently. Is it such a huge sacrifice to put off reading a book for a week while you spend time with your family? It's just a book, but family is people.

Again, I would respect my son's decision. But I would be hurt. I think that the media has put up this hype surrounding this particular series, but that in the end, it's a fictional story with fictional characters, and we as people should prioritize real people.

its not just putting off reading the book - this is the last hp book this will never happen again and it is one of those things a child will remember all his life.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
Granted, Harry Potter is way better than NKOTB (wasn't it awful when they took up just the initials of the name? ugh) by any measure.

what do you mean i <3 NKOTB!!!














: la la la la la la tonight.......


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"this is the last hp book this will never happen again and it is one of those things a child will remember all his life."

Well now this is getting to be a debate about Harry Potter so I guess we need to stop here but I will just say that I disagree. The book is not likely to go out of print for a long time, so what the once-in-a-lifetime chance is about is the community of celebration of the commercial event. It's not about a book: the book can be read at any time, unless they ban it or something. It's about being in the right place at the right time with the right people, meaning, Harry Potter party, release date, other fans.

Okay, I've said my piece on this. I don't want to derail the thread with a debate on commercialized novels.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
"this is the last hp book this will never happen again and it is one of those things a child will remember all his life."

Well now this is getting to be a debate about Harry Potter so I guess we need to stop here but I will just say that I disagree. The book is not likely to go out of print for a long time, so what the once-in-a-lifetime chance is about is the community of celebration of the commercial event. It's not about a book: the book can be read at any time, unless they ban it or something. It's about being in the right place at the right time with the right people, meaning, Harry Potter party, release date, other fans.

Okay, I've said my piece on this. I don't want to derail the thread with a debate on commercialized novels.

fair enough


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
Dragonfly, absolutely, the experience with mom is important. However, I do think that if we are talking about his seeing his dad once per month (and it's not clear what the visitation schedule is, but that's what it sounds like), then don't you think that you would prioritize dad when he comes by?

But WHY does he only get to see his dad once per month? Isn't it because Dad chooses to live four hours away?

This thread isn't about whether it's right or wrong for Dad to do this -- but isn't Dad's choice a statement that something else is _more important_ to Dad than being a daily fixture in his son's life, available for all the little moments that just happen and can't be planned in advance?

Quote:

He didn't ask me. He wants to do Harry Potter. Again I say that I would respect that but that he should tell his dad and that mom should tell Grandma.
Dad already knows. According to the OP, Dad's mainly just worried about Grandma's reaction.

And I fail to see how Dad, or Grandma, should be hurt because the son had already made plans, and Mom just got mixed up and agreed to other plans at the same time. I could see annoyance (though IMO an occasional over-sight is understandable) and disappointment that he already had a prior engagement. But not _hurt_.

Of course, people have a right to feel hurt if they choose. I just don't think it would be fair for the son to get guilted because his mama made a boo-boo.

I still recall the weekend my sister had big plans to take my brother and me to an amusement park. We were so excited. At the last minute, Dad said, "Oh, I forgot and told Mom and Dad the kids could spend Saturday night with them." My dad decided Grandma and Grandpa wouldn't mind too much if my brother wasn't there, just so long as they still had me.

When I cried at the unfairness, Dad said, "Fine, you can go -- but YOU have to be the one to call and tell Grandma you're not coming." After hearing Grandma start to cry as she told me how she'd been preparing all my favorite foods, I decided to sacrifice and go be with my grandparents.

It was a gloomy weekend; my grandparents kept saying, "We know you'd rather be at the amusement park, you really don't want to be here..." -- so, though I gave up my plans to avoid feeling guilty, since I couldn't fake being happy about it, I got guilted bigtime anyway.

I agree that people come first. I just don't see how the dad's been putting his son first in his own life -- not that I claim to know the situation, maybe it really is best for him to live four hours away. It just seems so artificial when our children are often "along for the ride" with many of the choices we make about where to live and how to live our lives --

to then say, "Since he only gets to see his dad once a month" -- as if it's _on the son_ to see to it that the relationship gets nurtured.

Edited to Add: I just re-read the OP, and realized the dad wasn't happy either -- so I changed my comment where I said Dad was cool with it. I still don't see Dad's unhappiness about Mom's oversight as their son's problem.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
The book's not going to disappear at 12:01, either. The child prefers to spend time reading the book with his mom than vacationing with his dad. That's it. It is a preference. It is a choice. It might not sound nice, but that's what he prefers, and that's what he chooses.

its not just a book and it is not just reading. it is an event. the last of the big release parties. reading the book is the sprint at the end of a marathon!!! This is about something him and his mother have been counting down to. This is something he has been looking forward to for a year. the vacation he was luke warm about from the beginning.

and i agree, this is what happens when you move 5 hours away from your kids. They *gasp* get a life and you are not a priority in it. As I grew up and my friends became important and stuff like this became important my dad just wasn't, he was this distant guys who drug me away from my life every now and then. and it really ticked me of when he started expecting me to cancel plans because he wanted to waltz in and play daddy. and because he didn't make my life, even the little stupid things that were none the less important to me, a priority to him i stopped with annoying visits as soon as possible. I also made life miserable for him when he drug me away from where i would rather be. of course he always thought "can't you just do this later? won't there be other ________? its just a little ___________ . .aren't i more important?


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I still feel bad about him not going though, esp since i know that "*grandma" is going to be upset, probably offer to fly him down there on saturday...luckily i will be out of reach* all weekend, no cell phone, no computer, so she cant call me begging.

We (son, myself, son's dad)have already been to TN once, years ago, and going again is possible. My son has been lots of places...sometimes just with his dad, sometimes with his dad and grandma, sometimes with my family, and sometimes with just his dad and me. He's been on vacation more with his dad and grandma than even me i think. San Fransisco, LA, FL, Mackinac Island, Chicago, MO several times, London, Paris, DC...i'm probably forgetting a bunch. So i'm sure my son views getting the last HP book as way more 'once in a lifetime' than vacation with grandma which will probably happen again next year (actually undoubtedly happen)...

Anyway, thanks again!
Katherine

This part I don't get. If grandma is likely to want to help work around the release party, even to the extent of flying him to the family vacation the day after, why would you make yourself unreachable?? That doesn't seem fair to me at all.

Obviously you don't like her, but you made plans, they worked around you, it's your son's family, and there's no reason to play games like that, in my opinion. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if your son's dad told you that, for example, he'd have your son back to you in time for you to do some other activity, then just informed you flat-out that there'd been a change, and refused to discuss a compromise...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
This part I don't get. If grandma is likely to want to help work around the release party, even to the extent of flying him to the family vacation the day after, why would you make yourself unreachable?? That doesn't seem fair to me at all.

I got the impression the OP wanted to be unreachable TO ALL, all weekend, so she and ds could fulfill their plans of devouring the whole book cover to cover -- before getting back in touch with the outside world and possibly hearing spoilers.

This weekend wasn't just about going to the press release and getting the book: it was also about _reading_ the book, getting to fully enjoy not knowing what happens _'til you read it_ and get to experience it _yourself._

I can fully understand how Grandma calling and begging could interfere with their enjoyment of the weekend. Also, their unreachableness will give Grandma the freedom to let it go and enjoy _her_ vacation, rather than ignoring the family she has with her to call and harass the OP and her son.

She should _thank_ the OP for that gift!









(Anyone who'd hard-pressure a mother to send her _4yo_ on a trip to _another country_-- seems like she needs a little help "accepting the things she can not change," with _serenity_, and moving on with her own life.)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
Dragonfly, absolutely, the experience with mom is important. However, I do think that if we are talking about his seeing his dad once per month (and it's not clear what the visitation schedule is, but that's what it sounds like), then don't you think that you would prioritize dad when he comes by?

I really don't. For one thing, as others have already said, his dad chooses to live 4 hours away. That's his choice and it has its implications. Second, as a single mom who takes care of almost all of the day-to-day for my son, I can tell you that special occasions/events we have together are just as big a deal for us as those he has with his father. Why? Because when he hangs out with his dad, it's almost all about fun experiences. When he hangs out with me, it's the daily grind. Not exactly what memories are made of! When we get the chance to step out of our routine and do something fun and memory-making, it's extremely exciting and important, despite the fact that we spend a lot of time together.

Honestly, I think this should be a really easy one for dad to get over. I know ds' dad would have no trouble with it. Just as I would have no trouble changing plans if he had the opportunity for a truly once in a lifetime event with his dad, provided that event were really important to him.

Quote:

And he could read Harry Potter next week with his mom when he gets back. I simply do not see the whole Harry Potter experience as something that is intrinsically valuable to a child's development. Being part of a communal celebration of a commercial enterprise to me is not an ideal thing to get all excited about.
To you. It's obviously important to this child. And I'd submit to you that anytime a child is passionate about something that isn't intrinsically harmful (i.e., drugs, driving 200mph down the freeway, etc.), it's important to his/her development. I mean, any outsider would say that it wasn't a big deal for me to go that first amazing Jane's Addiction concern when I was 15. But I had anticipated it for months, it was my first concert, I *loved* Jane's Addiction. Sure, I'd go on to see them a few more times, but that first concert is still one of my best memories. I think it was very important to my development as a person.

I understand the "damn the evil commercial empire" mindset, but it's not about commercialism for many of these kids. These are wonderful stories that kids get excited about - just as people get excited about other literature. It stokes their imaginations. That's never a bad thing, IMO, even if there's commercialism that goes along with it.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

lets take harry potter out of the equation. it doesn't matter if it is a jump-rope-a-thon or an upside down under water basket weaving contest. it is important to him, more important than a week in the boonies, it is something he has been planning for a year. thats all that matters. it really doesn't what he is doing or if it is important to anyone else.


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
He wants to stay here. His dad offered to find a bookstore in TN and get the book for him and everything, but as my son said "its not the same"....


It's not about the book. It's about the experience with you, his mom. In my mind, this is a vacation of sorts (you and him away from the rest of the world -- that's a definition of vacation, right?) that you have been planning for a year. It's unfortunate that it conflicts with this other, more recently planned vacation, but it sounds like your ds really values this opportunity to be with you for the weekend, reading and hanging out and talking about the book. (For the record, my two older children and I have the exact same plans, so I'm clearly a little biased!)

Tell ds he can stay home. Tell the ex that you are very sorry, you made a mistake in the dates. Tell grandma that you have a prior vacation planned that you had forgotten to note on the calendar. Yes, they might be mad or hurt or whatever. They are grown ups and they'll get over it. And your ds will see that you struggled with the decision, that you do value his time with his father and extended family, but that this is important to him so you chose him.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snuggly mama* 
It's not about the book. It's about the experience with you, his mom. In my mind, this is a vacation of sorts (you and him away from the rest of the world -- that's a definition of vacation, right?) that you have been planning for a year. It's unfortunate that it conflicts with this other, more recently planned vacation, but it sounds like your ds really values this opportunity to be with you for the weekend, reading and hanging out and talking about the book. (For the record, my two older children and I have the exact same plans, so I'm clearly a little biased!)

Tell ds he can stay home. Tell the ex that you are very sorry, you made a mistake in the dates. Tell grandma that you have a prior vacation planned that you had forgotten to note on the calendar. Yes, they might be mad or hurt or whatever. They are grown ups and they'll get over it. And your ds will see that you struggled with the decision, that you do value his time with his father and extended family, but that this is important to him so you chose him.

Yes, to all of the above! Have fun this weekend!


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## bumperbee (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
lets take harry potter out of the equation. it doesn't matter if it is a jump-rope-a-thon or an upside down under water basket weaving contest. it is important to him, more important than a week in the boonies, it is something he has been planning for a year. thats all that matters. it really doesn't what he is doing or if it is important to anyone else.

Assuming of course, that the exact same event was also occurring in TN as well, and that he could still participate in it, with his dad.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

So mom being part of the event just doesn't matter? Why is that?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

his dad is not excited about it. he was not plannin gon doing this with his dad. who wants to take a kid on vacation just so they can lock themselves in their room and read?

this sounds like a lot more fun with mom. this is their thing. this is their fun. it is about more than the event.

There were things I was ticked off about missing in the name of visitation with a dad who didn't care to live close to us. I could have and did do some of them with him but it sucked. it wasn't the same. what i wanted to be doing involved people I loved and cared about. it was about my community and my people.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

It's pretty clear that most people are making their decision based on what they *personally* feel is most important. Obviously different people value different things, so it seems to be a bad idea to make the decision based on what other people deem important. Everyone including children should have the right to some autonomy. The boy is the one who has to live with the consequences, so he should be the one to make the decision. It's unfortunate that mom made a mistake about the dates, but the boy should not be punished for her mistake. It's unfortunate that dad lives far away and only sees his son once a month, but that too is not the boys fault. Vacations are meant to be enjoyable and relaxing, but I can't imagine having a good time on a vacation when it means missing out on something that I had been looking forward to for close to a year. Being forced to attend the vacation is more likely to cause resentment rather than encourage family bonding. If that's the case it would actually be counter-productive. It just seems so disrespectful to the son to disregard his wants/desires just because not everyone feels it is as important as he does. I can't imagine forcing my husband to miss something really important to him just because I made plans without consulting him. Most people would not ask an adult to make this sort of sacrifice, but many people want the boy to make this sacrifice because he is the kid and the adults know what's best. It seems to be quite a double standard.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I think that the vast majority of us on here have said that the child's decision should be respected. There has just been a secondary debate as to whether we believe he's made the right decision. But advising a child and forcing him to do something are very different things.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

But WHY does he only get to see his dad once per month? Isn't it because Dad chooses to live four hours away?
Or maybe Mom choose where she lives. I didn't see in the OP that the father had moved AWAY from son, but I may have missed it. Either way people are making a lot of assumptions about Dad.


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## bumperbee (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
So mom being part of the event just doesn't matter? Why is that?

Of course it matters. I never said it didn't. All I said was that he could still participate in the event, albeit in a different way. Doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a compromise for him. That just seems like the easiest compromise... setting up another vacation might also work- even though the current one can't be rescheduled maybe he could visit with dad and paternal grandparents as soon as they get back and stay with them for a while?

I just don't think it needs to be an all or nothing thing.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Or maybe Mom choose where she lives. I didn't see in the OP that the father had moved AWAY from son, but I may have missed it. Either way people are making a lot of assumptions about Dad.

Even if it were the mom who moved away -- a father _does_ have a say in these matters, if he chooses to take the legal steps to assert his rights. At the time of the separation or divorce, Dad _could_ have pushed to get legal visitation rights, and I think he'd also have some say if Mom was wanting to move four hours away, and Dad didn't want her to.

Of course, getting the law involved would also mean he'd have to pay court ordered child-support, and maybe he wouldn't want to take things that far.

So either way, I don't think I'm "off" in assuming Dad has other priorities besides being a primary person in his son's life.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
his dad is not excited about it. he was not plannin gon doing this with his dad. who wants to take a kid on vacation just so they can lock themselves in their room and read?

Yeah! I'll probably get accused of "assuming" more stuff -- but I just have an icky feeling Grandma would not, AT ALL, respect the boy's desire to lock himself up long enough to read the entire book from cover to cover.

She'd be saying [email protected] like, "You can read that book any old time, but we'll only be in these beautiful mountains for a few more days, nag-nag-nag." I think she'd definitely try to make him feel guilty if he went but wasn't making what she'd consider "good use" of the wonderful time she'd planned for him.

Okay, now I'm assuming bigtime, I'll admit it. It's just, years of experience with my own childhood tells me it's so.

Quote:

this sounds like a lot more fun with mom. this is their thing. this is their fun. it is about more than the event.
Yes, being able to share this last book with his mom, who actually loves Harry Potter and will share the joy _with him_, seems way different from sharing the experience with his dad who, according to the OP, is the sort of person who'd actually prefer sharing a spoiler with his son so he'll know what happened without getting to read it for himself. That'd be a real drag.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

dad and grandma want to take son for a vacation.

mom says okay.

oops, mom realizes there's a conflict. it's an event with mom that son has been looking forward to for a long time.

what to do???

i think if son was _really_ invested in the "event" with mom i would let him do that, BUT i would call and apologize profusely and take all the blame myself. i would not let it be that son _chose_ the "event" instead of the vacation with family. it would be MY FAULT that I MESSED UP and DIDN'T REALIZE WE ALREADY HAD PLANS. and THEN, i would ASK WHAT I COULD DO TO MAKE UP FOR IT. could i bring son down to visit for a special weekend as soon as they got back from vacation? could i help plan another trip? would they like to come up and visit? if the choice is to stay home and do the event then amends must be made because it might really hurt the grandma and dad and extended family's feelings and the message you want to give them is that they do matter and you're sorry you messed up the dates. the message you want to give your son is you're sorry you messed up the dates and family does matter and you need to make amends when you're sorry.

that's my advice!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
...BUT i would call and apologize profusely and take all the blame myself. i would not let it be that son _chose_ the "event" instead of the vacation with family.

Exactly! What happened is the son had a prior engagement, and Mom messed up and scheduled something at the same time, which is human and understandable.

The logical response is for Mom to apologize and try to make amends -- NOT for the son to be "encouraged" to give up something important to him as if it's ON HIM to "prove" his love for his dad.


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so I'm just going on what the OP wrote.

Have you tried turning the situation around? What if your ds lived with his Dad and you planned a vacation and then Dad says "Ooops, I forgot, we planned on going to a release party for a book (that he can read two days later when he gets back) so now he doesn't want to come on vacation with you.".

Part of me can't help but wonder if this is more about the release party, the book, reading it right away before the "magic" is gone etc.. being just as if not more important to the *OP* than her son. Kids pick up on things. The OP's ds most likely knows how important this is to mom and doesn't want to dissapoint her, which may be influencing his decision.

To be honest I don't "get" the whole HP thing. I've read a couple, they were okay...I guess everybody has their own taste in literature. Whatever.

I guess to me one of the most important things in life are family. Books, movies, TV shows etc.. are all nice too, but IMO they should NEVER trump time with family. Your ds is 11..he's entering a time in his life when he *needs* a father. To you this may be just an opportunity that can be replaced, but who knows if some sort of really fantastic bonding moment will happen on this trip that could impact your son's life forever.

We never know how long our loved ones are going to be here. Somebody can be taken away in an instant. When it comes down to it you know for sure that the new HP book will be here when he gets back. The words inside will be the same as if he had read them 2 days earlier. Skipping this trip however, may result in missing out on something that can never be replaced or reproduced.

Believe me, I love to read and there are books that I love dearly and have become a part of my soul, of who I am. I just can't understand however, trading experiencing a *real, live place with real, live people* who are an integral part of your life for fictional places and fictional characters who will be there when you get back.

My advice would be...don't take your son and his father's relationship for granted..don't assume to know what events will transpire on the trip..don't send the message to your ds's Dad that a book is more important than their time together. To you, a HP fan, it may not be about whether or not the book is more imprortant than his Dad..but to his Dad (and grandmother), who have not jumped on the HP bandwagon that's exactly how it will come across...that his son is choosing to stay home and read a book that will be there when he gets back as opposed to spending time with him.

Just my .02.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
I guess to me one of the most important things in life are family. Books, movies, TV shows etc.. are all nice too, but IMO they should NEVER trump time with family. Your ds is 11..he's entering a time in his life when he *needs* a father. To you this may be just an opportunity that can be replaced, but who knows if some sort of really fantastic bonding moment will happen on this trip that could impact your son's life forever.


first i think you really underestimate how important these things are for kids and how cool it is when your parents indulge this sort of thing.

secondly what he wants to do he wants to do with family. this is a huge bonding time with mom. If dad insists on ruining it it could create a divide that will never heal (seriously am i the only one who hated her dad as a pre-teen/teenager because visitation a million miles from home was more important than my plans and my life?).making him mis it is in no way going to help his relationship with his dad or bonding them closer. he won't be focused on family and fun and the trip. he will only be able to focus on what he is missing out on. however if dad says "I know this is really important to you, have fun with your mom, I will see you next weekend and I will listen as you rattle on endlessly about the book. . . " he will never ever forget how loving and caring his dad was about this.


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

But if it's really THAT important to her ds why did she give the okay to go ahead and plan a vacation (that I'm sure is costing the grandmother a decent amount of money) for that weekend? If something was that monumentally important to my ds I'd be sure to at least..oh I don't know..put it on the calendar to make sure that I didn't schedule anything else for that day.

Why does Dad have to be put in the positon to either forgo a vacation (that was *approved* by Mom and has been planned by Grandma) or become the "Big Bad Dad Who Won't Let Me Go To The Release Party Of the HP Book" because of a mistake that the OP made?

It just seems like the overtone of this thread is that Dad and Grandma should just suck it up because the OP screwed up and gave them the go ahead to plan a vacation and then afterwards remembered they had something they wanted to do more.

Perhaps a more important lesson in responsibility, following through with obligations, the importance of family and considering the effects of your actions on others could be learned by the OP saying to her ds:

"Listen, I know this was important to you, but *I* wasn't thinking about the HP release party when I gave the go ahead for this vacation with your Dad. Your Grandmother has thoughtfully planned a really nice vacation for you and both she and your Dad are looking forward to spending time with you. It's not fair of us to expect them to change plans because *I* made a mistake. We'll read the book as soon as you get back..it is after all, only a book that you can read anytime, but this time spent with your Dad and Grandmother can never be replaced."


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
But if it's really THAT important to her ds why did she give the okay to go ahead and plan a vacation (that I'm sure is costing the grandmother a decent amount of money) for that weekend? If something was that monumentally important to my ds I'd be sure to at least..oh I don't know..put it on the calendar to make sure that I didn't schedule anything else for that day.

Because some people just aren't that organized. Personally, I try to keep way too much in my head and occasionally things slip. I try not to make my kid suffer for it.

Quote:

"Listen, I know this was important to you, but *I* wasn't thinking about the HP release party when I gave the go ahead for this vacation with your Dad. Your Grandmother has thoughtfully planned a really nice vacation for you and both she and your Dad are looking forward to spending time with you. It's not fair of us to expect them to change plans because *I* made a mistake. We'll read the book as soon as you get back..it is after all, only a book that you can read anytime, but this time spent with your Dad and Grandmother can never be replaced."
Why should the kid be penalized because his mother made a mistake with the calendar?


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

Am I the only one who picked up on the whole "next Friday" thing? It really sounds to me like this was NOT a planned in detail event by Grandma as much as a spur of the moment, hey, how bout we go to the Ozarks, can Grandson come, let's say, next Friday? That makes a difference to me, too. Had Grandma phrased it as, "We're planning this vacation and looking at July 20," I'm sure Mom would have caught that.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Your son is 11 years old. If he doesn't want to go on the trip, then HE should be the one to call up his grandma to explain that he will not be going and why.


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Your son is 11 years old. If he doesn't want to go on the trip, then HE should be the one to call up his grandma to explain that he will not be going and why.

ITA. If it's his decision that you're respecting when backing out of the trip then it's his responsiblity to call both his dad and grandma to let them know why he won't be joining them.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I think that's just bizarre. Really. The child should be punished for mom's mistake?







:

Not to mention, it's extremely manipulative - like a false choice. "You can stay, but YOU have to be the one to disappoint your Grandma." Way to make the kid feel like total crud for no reason whatsoever.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

It wasn't his fault. he is 11. His life is enough for him. It is his paretns job to keep everything streight.

it is not his fault there is a conflict. It is his mothers, she dropped the ball, she needs to call grandma.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

:


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## icequeenash (May 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_i have to go with harry potter...but my judgement gets pretty cloudly when it comes to H.P....._

IAWTC


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Wow, we just got back from up north (beach cottage on Lake Huron), and look at all the responses! I dont think i can respond to each one, but wanted to thanks everyone for their input and also clarify some things.

When i said i was going to be "unreachable" i just meant that this past weekend (sat until tues)we were up north (in MI) at the beach, and i had no cell phone, no phone, no internet access....so i couldnt be reached. I fully expected when i got home i would have a voicemail box full of messages, or at least an email, from either my son's father or Gma, but no one called. I really hope he got my email saying that my son didnt want to go on the vacation.

Quote:

Part of me can't help but wonder if this is more about the release party, the book, reading it right away before the "magic" is gone etc.. being just as if not more important to the OP than her son. Kids pick up on things. The OP's ds most likely knows how important this is to mom and doesn't want to dissapoint her, which may be influencing his decision.
Actually, i'll be going to the release party and reading the book whether or not my son is there. My sister and niece are also going, as we all went together for the last book too. I had actually been looking forward to my son going on vacation for a few days, i had big plans to totally clean our apt and reorganize (i'm preparing for another homestudy visit for adoption/foster care) and its alot easier to do if he's gone--if for no other reason than we tend to spend alot of time hanging out when we are together.

We were just down in Cincinnati in June, and at that time GM was planning a vacation to "somewhere" with ds, ds' dad, ds' uncle, uncle's wife and two small kids. Dates were not specified, nor location.

My son (who is actually still 10 yo, btw, and will be 11 in Oct)is very laid back, easy going, and if i "made" him go on the trip, he wouldnt be angry with anyone or hold it against anyone. But i think he'd be pretty bummed about missing the book, but he'd have a good time.

The thing is...for people saying that the book isnt the last printing, it will still be around....its like watching a tv series for years and years...lets say "Lost"....and you are a super fan, its a big part of your life. You have plans to hang out with a bunch of other Lost fans, who have been meeting each year for each season's finale, and its going to be a great time. And then, its the series finale, the episode when you find out Everything...the storyline is resolved, the secrets will be revealed. Its "the end"....and you can't watch it. Yes, you can Tivo it and watch it later, and thats better than nothing. But by that time, the "secrets" will be splashed all over the internet, news, radio, etc. I think it would be a bummer.

If this wasnt the LAST HP book, the resolution of the story line, it would be a no brainer, he'd go on the trip.

Ds' dad offered immediately to find a bookstore in TN, and he offered to read it to him. When i joked that Gma will probably offer to fly ds down there, it was to make the point that she will do just about anything to make *her* plans work, no matter how much it might impact other people...i've repeatedly told ds' dad that it would be nice, if she wanted to plan a vacation so that she could spend time with ds, that she do something like spend a weekend in a hotel water park, in which all the time could be focused on each other, instead of trips which involved hours and hours of driving, or flying out of the country. My son told me that gma said she wasnt going on any "fake vacations" (not a "real" destination) so i question how much of it is truly about the kids. Last year they went to Mackinac Island...do you realize how far that is from Cincinnati OH? Freakin' far! Like 500 miles! And yet thats the vacation she planned when the other grandchild was about a year old. No sense that maybe that isnt the best idea. So now she's planning this trip with a two yr old, and newborn, my son, etc.

Gma has big boundary issues...she's taken my son to the dentist and gotten major work down without asking me (leaving my son there scared to death while she ran errands), gotten his long hair cut w/o asking me, told him she was signing him up for tutoring since he was "behind in math" (???) and really disagrees with us unschooling. She is used to her kids bending to her will, and when i would refuse it freaked her out. She couldnt stand it, and we didnt speak for a couple of years.

Normally, i would immediately say "no" to any vacations now, since my son has told me he doesnt particularly enjoy spending so much time away from home...but i was feeling all positive after our recent trip down there, and trying to show how flexible i was. I felt like we had "mended fences" so to speak, and wanted to stay on good terms.

My son never actually agreed to the trip, i did for him, which i now regret doing. I really think that ds' dad's issue has more to do with fear of his own mother, than about the trip and feeling like he doesnt have enough time with his son. Everyone is still going to go on the trip, including two other grandchildren. I didnt have the final dates for the trip until very recently, and by that time everything was booked. Yes it was my mistake, and i feel really bad about it.

My sister was really irritated that ds' dad wanted him to miss HP, because in her words "he has no problem disappointed Seamus when it suits him! But now that Seamus has something that's really important to him, he's supposed to just skip it to make other people happy?!?" There have been times he's gone down to Cincy to visit his dad, and ends up staying with Gma, running errands, and no one planned anything special for him to do. Once, i spent a whole hour on the phone, reading to him, because he was scared at night and everyone else had gone to bed. His dad has gotten tons better, but its hard (for my son and myself)when we live a certain way (Radical unschooling/mindful parenting), and his dad just isnt there yet....so he sometimes gets yelled at, or talked to disrespectfully, or that sort of thing. As i said my son is super easygoing, so he's not scarred by these things, but he has decided not to go down there by himself until he's much older---which is why i made this last trip with him, and will probably continue to do so just so he can continue to see his other family more regularly. Mainly, because his 2 yo cousin adores him, and i want them to keep up that relationship. S. dad comes up here alot, and its been that way for years.

Yes, we moved away from the area a few years ago, so i could help take care of my mom who had a stroke, and homeschool my son (he had a terrible time in school, and ds' dad would even drag him bodily into the school.) Ds' dad's reason for not moving up here is that his social life is down there. Which is fine, but i dont see how my son won't view that as choosing his lifestyle over his son. But again, he knows thats just who his dad is. We were never together, there is no custody arrangement, no child support, no legal establishment of paternity (such as on the BC).

Anyway, this is too long, sorry....i havent heard from ds' dad yet, he was supposed to pick him up this evening and i'm not sure if he got my email last saturday...i guess i should call him and find out!

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Just wanted to update....talked to ds' dad on the phone today, he said gma is very upset, and has been crying for days...he said that he's been instructed by his mother to talk to ds directly (i guess she thinks i'm the one not letting him go, we've had this problem before where ds will tell me something and then they insist on talking to him so they can talk him into whatever it is)...so i said sure. They talked for awhile. Ds' dad said that he really wished that ds would call gma to talk to her, but he understands if he doesnt want to. But that ds should not agree to come if he truly doesnt want to. He also said that he totally understands being a "fan" of something, so he "gets" why ds can't come. I told him its totally my fault for screwing up the dates, so if gma wants to be mad at someone it should be me. So ds called gma, it was a short conversation because gma hung up on him (there's ds holding the phone "She hung up on me!!"







: )...she was crying and kept asking ds why he wanted to hurt her. It seems totally weird and inappropriate to me.

My sister explained to my son that *he* wasnt "hurting her" but that she was hurt about the circumstances. She's so very very manipulative, and it sucks because people (that is, her kids and grandkids)would actually *choose* to spend more time with her if she wasnt such an emotionally bully. I just can't believe she hung up on a 10 yr old. All he said to her was that he was sorry for not being able to come, and that if it were any other weekend he'd be able to come, but that his mom(me) messed up the dates and he didnt know.

Ds' dad is worried about having to spend six hours alone in a car with her. Luckily we're getting to see him in a couple of weeks since he's coming up here for some event and stopping by to see ds.

Katherine


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i am glad your ds is being allowed to choose, and seriously i would keep your ds way, way away from gma, i think her behaviour was amazingly inapporpriate and i feel so sorry for your ds that he was put in that position by her. i also think it was a bit naughty of your dh to tell your ds to call her, i feel that perhaps he was trying to deflect some of the pressure away from himself, i dont think he ought to have told your ds to call her, however i suppose at 10 perhaps it is right that they are involved in these things. my eldest is only 6 so i am not familiar with what is age appropriate for a 10 year old.

anyhow - relax and enjoy hp it is SO exciting! i have bought my ds a costume and we are going to a party at waterstones on friday night - we are really looking forward to it and dh has said he will keep the little ones busy saturday so ds and i can get stuck in to the book


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000* 
i feel that perhaps he was trying to deflect some of the pressure away from himself

I agree. Especially in light of the following comment where he was concerned about having to spend 6 hours alone in a car with her. A child shouldn't have the responsibility of being the buffer.

And her behavior was so far beyond the bounds of appropriate... I'm sitting here furious for him. Shame on her.







:


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

You've been planning this HP release party for over a year. His dad's been planning this little vacation (one of many) for what, a few weeks? Once in a lifetime opportunity vs. _another_ family vacation he has no particular desire to go on.

I'm glad you stood up for DS and are allowing him to miss the trip. It sounds like his grandma is a real piece of work, and that his dad needs help learning how to stand up to her.


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## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

I cannot believe she hung up on your son. How immature of her. How manipulative of her. And lots of other things that would be a UA violation if I typed them out.

Enjoy the HP release party, what a great way to make meaningful memories with your son.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

let us know how you get on at the party


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Grandma has some letting go issues, I think. How positively weird to hang up on the kid. I can understand her being annoyed with the parents but hanging up on her grandson?







:


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

And anyway, has anyone asked Grandma whether she would really like him there when he would rather be somewhere else? Wouldn't that kind of defeat the whole vacation?


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

if i was grandma my main concern would be to make sure that g'son didnt feel bad and was reassured that i love him.


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## Frisha (Jan 19, 2007)

OK I have to chime in here, this has been bothering me a bit ever since I read this the other day.

1. 11 year old can choose for himself. He wants to go to the book release then go to the book release.

2. Mom made the mistake don't make the kid pay for it by missing something he wants to do. Don't make him miss it because the mom made a mistake. He would probably hold it against all that he wasn't allowed to go.

3. See 1. Kid should be allowed to make his own decision. I have seen several of you mention that kids should be allowed to make decisions when they are old enough. And here you are saying his decision doesn't matter.....

So seems pretty clear cut to me kid goes to book release. mom talks to extended family and makes apology.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frisha* 
1. 11 year old can choose for himself. He wants to go to the book release then go to the book release.

2. Mom made the mistake don't make the kid pay for it by missing something he wants to do. Don't make him miss it because the mom made a mistake. He would probably hold it against all that he wasn't allowed to go.

3. See 1. Kid should be allowed to make his own decision. I have seen several of you mention that kids should be allowed to make decisions when they are old enough. And here you are saying his decision doesn't matter.....

So seems pretty clear cut to me kid goes to book release. mom talks to extended family and makes apology.

Sounds good to me


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes, Grandma acted extremely innapropriate. BUT..let's look at the outcome of this whole situation.

Grandma is ticked off at dad, mom and grandson most likely causing future problems and tension (I'm not saying she's justified..but she does sound pissed so it is what it is).

Dad is now subjected to the wrath of Grandma because of a mistake he didn't make.

Grandson is most likely upset because he thinks he "hurt" Grandma (I'm not saying that he should be, or that it wasn't manipulative of her to behave that way but he still most likely can't help but feel that way after their conversation...he's 11).

Grandson (and Dad) miss out on a trip together where who knows what could have happened in the ways of father/son bonding.

All this..for a book. Sorry, no matter how attatched you are to HP, I just don't get it.

Bowing out now, enjoy your book party







.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

just because grandma is well known for making a fuss doesnt mean she should always get her way regardless of the feelings of others, we shouldnt have to give in to bullies. i think her ds has been taught a valuable lesson - that his feelings are important and are not always secondary to the feelings of others.

we need to teach our children to value themselves and what is important to them, not to teach them to live for others and that pleasing others is more important than being true to ourselves.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith;8679709[/quote*
All this..for a book. Sorry, no matter how attatched you are to HP, I just don't get it.

The fact that you're insisting this is all just "for a book" is a pretty clear indicator that you're not on the same page as most of the rest of us. It's not just about a book. It's about the child having a voice in his own life and being respected.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
Yes, Grandma acted extremely innapropriate. BUT..let's look at the outcome of this whole situation.

Grandma is ticked off at dad, mom and grandson most likely causing future problems and tension (I'm not saying she's justified..but she does sound pissed so it is what it is).

I don't think this needs to cause "future problems and tension" for the OP's son. The OP has already stated she'll be going with ds on future visits with them, as ds really doesn't like going off on long trips with these people, and seems to prefer having his mom around.

This means Mom can observe the situation and they can leave early if Grandma starts shifting into B!+c#--mode. It sounds like Grandma is the type who causes "problems and tension" for everyone, whenever she doesn't get her own way about anything.

With controlling people like this, it's best to quit walking on eggshells, assert yourself, and protect your children by getting them away when you sense this is one of "those" times (of manipulation and guilt). I honestly think the only way to avoid "problems and tension" with these sorts of people is to cut them out of your life.

I'm not saying ds "should" cut Grandma out of his life: this is a choice only he can make -- though Mom should help him deal with the situation however he chooses. I'm just saying that in relationships with controlling people, "problems and tension" are just part of the territory for anyone who has his/her own ideas and preferences, and chooses to assert them.

And those who choose to be unassertive and "get along" _all the time_, are likely to end up being passive-aggressive and transferring all the "problems and tension" into their own inner psyches.

This is a good learning opportunity for ds: he can start thinking about how much and how often he wants to interact with Grandma, if at all. And Mom can be right there to help him and back him up. When he's grown, he'll have a whole repoirte of knowledge for dealing with difficult people.

Quote:

Grandson (and Dad) miss out on a trip together where who knows what could have happened in the ways of father/son bonding.
A caring, creative Dad will find lots of other ways to connect with his son. If the relationship is so fragile that missing this one opportunity means they don't "bond" -- well, I'm inclined to think the son's better off just hanging out with Mom and letting Dad continue to do his own thing.

From the post I just read from the op, it sounds like Dad "has no problem disappointing (his son) when it suits him." So let's be real here.

Quote:

All this..for a book. Sorry, no matter how attatched you are to HP, I just don't get it.
Yeah, you really just don't get it -- if you think it's all about a book. It's about people listening to and respecting one another, regardless of age.

It's about putting relationships before agendas. I don't know Grandma, but judging from her recent treatment of her grandson, it sounds like she puts her own personal agendas ahead of relationships -- then twists things around to make other people feel bad for "hurting" her by not putting her agenda ahead of their own.

The op has communicated ds's preference for trips that don't take him so far from home, where he doesn't have to be away from his mom (and his life), so much (such as spending a weekend in a hotel that has a water-park) -- and Grandma referred to this as a "fake vacation." It sounds like the destination is way more important to her than her grandson's preferences.

So no, it's not "all this...for a book." It's "all this...to show ds his preferences are just as worthy of respect as Grandma's and everyone else's."


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

I just think you have an amazing kid. He seems so patient and kind with his grandma, even when she is overbearing. Obviously your "radical" upbringing is doing a lot of good for him. I hope you are able to work something out. Good luck!


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## WalkingByFaith (Dec 29, 2006)

Oh please.

This has nothing to do with "respecting choices" and everything to do with a fanatic obsession over a book







: . The OP even said herself that her ds doesn't care one way or the other and he'd be fine if he had to miss the book release party and would still have fun on the vacation. I have a strong feeling that if this was something that was important only to her ds (say the release of a new video game or the season premiere of a new cartoon that she cared nothing about) he'd be going on this trip. What I see happening here is a mom who is just as (if not more) invested in HP manipulating this situation because SHE really wants him to go to the release party.

What are you teaching a child by telling him it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as "it's his choice" even when it means putting others in an awkward postion, disrespecting other peoples feelings and breaking commitments that have been made?

Oh..and for the record, if I "respected" all of my child's choices we'd spend everyday eating oreos and watching Star Wars







: .


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
The OP even said herself that her ds doesn't care one way or the other and he'd be fine if he had to miss the book release party and would still have fun on the vacation.

This is what the OP said: "Now my son doesnt want to go on this trip that he didnt particularly want to go to in the first place."

Quote:

What are you teaching a child by telling him it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as "it's his choice" even when it means putting others in an awkward postion, disrespecting other peoples feelings and breaking commitments that have been made?
The prior commitment was to the thing that the child wants to do. What are you teaching the child if you force him to do something because someone else made a mistake when he has a prior commitment that was very important to him?

Quote:

Oh..and for the record, if I "respected" all of my child's choices we'd spend everyday eating oreos and watching Star Wars








: .
If you can't see the difference in the situations, I just don't know what to say to you.









Personally, I think you're doing a lot of projecting and making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
This is what the OP said: "Now my son doesnt want to go on this trip that he didnt particularly want to go to in the first place."

Exactly. It sounds like the op's son is laid-back, and cares enough about the feelings of others to not sulk, and to make the best of whatever situation he's in -- but does that mean it's okay for him to feel he always has to cave to Grandma, just because she's less mature than he is when it comes to handling disappointment and adapting to others?

Quote:

The prior commitment was to the thing that the child wants to do. What are you teaching the child if you force him to do something because someone else made a mistake when he has a prior commitment that was very important to him?
Yes. The "awkwardness" occurred because the op got mixed up about the dates. She's sorry about that, and I think she'll do what she can to make amends. Since the son didn't make the commitment, I don't see how he can or should be accused of breaking it.

Quote:

Personally, I think you're doing a lot of projecting and making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.
Yes, the assumption that the op would be sending her son on this trip if it *only* meant he'd be missing something that mattered to _him_, and not to both of them, is just plain insulting to the op.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And for the people who say (or imply) that we HP lovers are just so blinded by our "fanatic obsession" that we can't think clearly about the issue --

I honestly think there's just as much of the reverse going on in this thread. Some who are puzzled by the popularity of HP, and wondering why getting and reading the book right away is so important to the op and her son -- are rephrasing the situation as "putting books and events before people."

And yet, the more the op posts about her son's grandma, the more it sounds like *this woman* is the one who's repeatedly gone ahead and done what she wanted, without regard for the feelings of others. I'm *shocked* that she took the op's son to the dentist and had work done without even consulting the op: I didn't even know this was legal without the parent's permission.

I'm shocked that it even _occured_ to the grandma to _try_ to step out-of-bounds to this extent. Her behavior shows a total lack of respect for the op and the op's son.

So when I hear people saying *the op's son* is being encouraged to do what he wants without considering the feelings of others -- I just have to laugh (sarcastically), because it seems so clear that this boy is being way more considerate of Grandma and her feelings, than she is of him and his feelings.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

I see both sides. On the one hand, I think it is reasonable to expect that family comes before a book or movie or whatever. If there is a rock concert, or a book launching or a birthday party and it conflicts with an important family event like a reunion or a family vacation with extended family, well then, family takes priority. Certainly, here in Italy, that is the culture. Family is just really really important and that value is imbued in children at a young age. Book launches take the back seat, even if the date of the family event was set AFTER the date of the book launch was set.

That being said, I don't see the point of making a kid go to something when he has a truly once in a lifetime event that he probably will always remember and think fondly about. I don't think this is just about "a book". This is a series that has been going on for seven years or something, so the bulk of his childhood. I think this is about a significant childhood event and childhood memories, just like Christmas day or Halloween or running in the sprinkler in summer. And if he can't go, he is always going to remember that he wanted to go and he missed it cause he had to go on a dumb family vacation. The vacation memory is always going to be tainted and possibly create resentment. If I were the grandmother, I would think about other opportunities and tell him to have a good time at the book launch.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WalkingByFaith* 
Oh please.

This has nothing to do with "respecting choices" and everything to do with a fanatic obsession over a book







: . The OP even said herself that her ds doesn't care one way or the other and he'd be fine if he had to miss the book release party and would still have fun on the vacation. I have a strong feeling that if this was something that was important only to her ds (say the release of a new video game or the season premiere of a new cartoon that she cared nothing about) he'd be going on this trip. What I see happening here is a mom who is just as (if not more) invested in HP manipulating this situation because SHE really wants him to go to the release party.

What are you teaching a child by telling him it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as "it's his choice" even when it means putting others in an awkward postion, disrespecting other peoples feelings and breaking commitments that have been made?

Oh..and for the record, if I "respected" all of my child's choices we'd spend everyday eating oreos and watching Star Wars







: .

i will just have to agree to disagree with you, and to be honest i think that you are actually being quite rude and condescending in your last paragraph. this is not about a cartoon or video game this is about an event in a childs life that holds meaning for that child and his mother. this is about arrangements being made on another persons behalf when they had prior commitments.

you obviously do not understand by comparing it to watching star wars all day. there is a time for limits and a time for freedom. the op's ds did not choose to be put in this position and the op has handled it with hers sons best interests foremost in her mind, this has been obvious the entire way through this thread, and i wholeheartedly admire her for it. i feel her dh's husband treat her ds as somewhat of a pawn and i feel the op has stood firm and not allowed this to happen - op - you are fabulous!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And for the people who say (or imply) that we HP lovers are just so blinded by our "fanatic obsession" that we can't think clearly about the issue --

I honestly think there's just as much of the reverse going on in this thread. Some who are puzzled by the popularity of HP, and wondering why getting and reading the book right away is so important to the op and her son -- are rephrasing the situation as "putting books and events before people."

And yet, the more the op posts about her son's grandma, the more it sounds like *this woman* is the one who's repeatedly gone ahead and done what she wanted, without regard for the feelings of others. I'm *shocked* that she took the op's son to the dentist and had work done without even consulting the op: I didn't even know this was legal without the parent's permission.

I'm shocked that it even _occured_ to the grandma to _try_ to step out-of-bounds to this extent. Her behavior shows a total lack of respect for the op and the op's son.

So when I hear people saying *the op's son* is being encouraged to do what he wants without considering the feelings of others -- I just have to laugh (sarcastically), because it seems so clear that this boy is being way more considerate of Grandma and her feelings, than she is of him and his feelings.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So when I hear people saying *the op's son* is being encouraged to do what he wants without considering the feelings of others -- I just have to laugh (sarcastically), because it seems so clear that this boy is being way more considerate of Grandma and her feelings, than she is of him and his feelings.

I completely agree.

I also think that something very important that's being overlooked - or maybe just dismissed - is that this *is* a family function. The OP and her son is a family, they have planned to share something that is exciting and important to them, and their family event is just as important. Maybe now *I'm* projecting







, but it seriously bugs me when someone assumes that a custodial parent should just set aside a special event because the non-custodial parent comes up with a conflict.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I also think that something very important that's being overlooked - or maybe just dismissed - is that this *is* a family function. The OP and her son is a family, they have planned to share something that is exciting and important to them, and their family event is just as important.

Yes.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
I see both sides. On the one hand, I think it is reasonable to expect that family comes before a book or movie or whatever. If there is a rock concert, or a book launching or a birthday party and it conflicts with an important family event like a reunion or a family vacation with extended family, well then, family takes priority. Certainly, here in Italy, that is the culture. Family is just really really important and that value is imbued in children at a young age. Book launches take the back seat, even if the date of the family event was set AFTER the date of the book launch was set.

I imagine that in Italy, it's the _whole family_ getting together -- meaning if this situation occurred in Italy, Mom would have been invited on the vacation, too. Am I right?

And if Mom was there with ds, they could slip off and go to a release party somewhere near the campsite, and hang out reading together for quite a bit of the rest of the vacation -- still faithfully attending family dinners so Grandma didn't feel neglected.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

This has nothing to do with "respecting choices" and everything to do with a fanatic obsession over a book







: . The OP even said herself that her ds doesn't care one way or the other and he'd be fine if he had to miss the book release party and would still have fun on the vacation.
I'm not sure where you got that ds doesnt care one way or another...he's been very clear since we realized the date conflict, that he wants to stay home and read HP. He has not wavered on that one bit. What i said was, that my son said he guesses he would go on the trip if i "made" him go. And i said, knowing how easy going my son is, that if i DID make him go on the trip, that he would enjoy it, and i dont think he would forever be disappointed about HP, or that he would hold it against anyone. However, just because my son is not super sensitive or because he is easy going/forgiving, doesnt therefore mean that his feelings should not be respected. Just because he isnt crying and hanging up on anyone, he shouldnt get what he wants?

I also think you really arent getting it about the book. For six books, many of whom are loooong books (like 600+ pages) we've followed the story of Harry Potter and his life at Hogwarts. At the end of Half Blood Prince, Hogwarts had closed and Harry went off to fight V. This last book finishes the story. Its the culmination of an experience that started when my son was about six or seven years old. For all six books, we'd lie in bed while i read out loud to him. Tomorrow night, kids all over the world will be standing in line to get their copy of the book, then rushing home to read it. By Saturday morning (or earlier) it will be all over the internet, how it ends. While i'm sure we would enjoy the book regardless, it would be really nice to read the book without knowing who dies, or if good triumphs over evil. I'm not sure why you don't get that!? We've followed these characters for *years* and this is it. The End.

Quote:

I have a strong feeling that if this was something that was important only to her ds (say the release of a new video game or the season premiere of a new cartoon that she cared nothing about) he'd be going on this trip.
Wow, i am not sure what i have written that would at ALL give you that impression...?!









We're radical unschoolers, and as such supporting my son's passions are pretty high on my list of priorities. So is respectful parenting, and just plain kindness within our home. I *absolutely* would support my son if this had to do with something videogame or cartoon related. However, the difference is in the timing. For example, if a certain videogame that he was waiting a long time for, was going to be released this weekend, i'd encourage him to go on the trip since the game would be there when he got back. But if he had been waiting forever for, say, the Wii to be released, he'd made prior plans to stand in line all night with friends and was really excited about that, and it would be likely he'd have to wait months for the opportunity to be able to buy a Wii, and he *really* wanted to do that instead of the trip, i'd respect that. As i said before, if this wasnt the *last* book, it wouldnt be an issue.

Quote:

What I see happening here is a mom who is just as (if not more) invested in HP manipulating this situation because SHE really wants him to go to the release party
Again....not sure where you are getting this. I'm going to the release party (with sister and niece) regardless, and would stay up all night reading regardless...indeed, when one of the books came out years ago..maybe Goblet of Fire, i can't really remember...i couldnt wait to read the book so after my son fell asleep i...ahem...read ahead and finished it. No big deal. I would have been happy to read him HP when he got back. He was not ok with that. I've asked him several times if he wouldnt rather go on the trip, his answer was that he didnt particularly want to go in the first place. He hasnt seemed conflicted at all, certainly not as conflicted and "guilty" as i feel.

Quote:

What are you teaching a child by telling him it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as "it's his choice" even when it means putting others in an awkward postion, disrespecting other peoples feelings and breaking commitments that have been made?
Well, i dont think this has anything to do with teaching my son anything. But what it has done is help me to learn that its important for me to not agree to any trips before checking a calander and being absolutely sure we are free on that date. And then discussing it with my son to make sure he wants to go, and only *then* to commit to it. My son hasnt disrespected anyone's feelings...he respects the fact that gma is upset, but he doesnt feel *responsible* for those feelings. Which is good, because he's not responsible. And honestly, i think her reaction is a little over the top, i can see her being "disappointed" or sad, but crying for days even though there are other grandchildren and her own two children going to me seems a little much. Out of seven people originally planned for this trip, six are still going. And please keep in mind this trip was going to happen whether ds went or not.

I broke the committment, by accident...not my son. Just wanted to be clear on that. If i had asked him, before any committment had been made, what his choice was, he would have chose staying home.

Quote:

Oh..and for the record, if I "respected" all of my child's choices we'd spend everyday eating oreos and watching Star Wars







: .
[/QUOTE]

http://www.sandradodd.com/ifilet

Maybe thats how "respect" works in your house....but not in ours. My son can eat Oreos all day if he wants, but i know that even if he did, it wouldnt last long. Its the rare child that would truly choose to limit themselves that way when they know they *really* have a choice. Its amazing how when a person knows they truly can have anything they want (within time and budget contraints of course), they become very selective in determining exactly what it is they DO want. Its funny to me that you mention food and media choices, because those are two things (amongst many others) that i don't "control" or put limits on at all (again, with the exception of certain time or money contraints), and never have (and i was raised similarly so i dont have any "baggage" in that area)....and i have a son who doesnt obsess over those issues.

Its funny, because on a different board i'm on, a parent said that its great that Radical Unschooling has worked so well for us, because my son is obviously very self-controlled and will limit himself, but her son would spend 12 hours a day on videogames, eat junk food at midnight, etc if she let him. I had to laugh and responded that my son does all that and more, but how i, as a radical unschooler, respond to those activities is probably much different than how she does, and that response makes all the difference in the world.

But that might be a subject for a different thread!

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillmamma* 
I just think you have an amazing kid. He seems so patient and kind with his grandma, even when she is overbearing. Obviously your "radical" upbringing is doing a lot of good for him. I hope you are able to work something out. Good luck!

Thanks! He really is amazing, such an empathetic kid, really loving. I'm not sure where he gets that, because i wasnt the greatest parent when he was a toddler/preschooler, but i really like him alot. He is so forgiving. Although i do have to be careful to remind him to be respectful towards his gma, even if he doesnt agree with her....sometimes i think the negative feelings that his father and i both occasionally have toward gma rubs off on him, so i try to make sure to balance that by telling him that i do truly believe she means well, and that when she does these things, SHE thinks she is just showing her love. She's not malicious, just clueless.

Radical unschooling is the best thing we ever did for our relationship though. I highly recommend it!









Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

And yet the more the op posts about her son's grandma, the more it sounds like *this woman* is the one who's repeatedly gone ahead and done what she wanted, without regard for the feelings of others. I'm *shocked* that she took the op's son to the dentist and had work done without even consulting the op: I didn't even know this was legal without the parent's permission.
Believe me i have a list a mile long of similar things she's done. I've had to call her doctor before and say she is NOT allowed to bring my son in for treatment w/o me giving specific consent. She had my permission to take him to the dentist to get his teeth cleaned, but didnt even tell me about anything else til after the fact. When i called the dentist to complain (this is in another state from me, four hours away), they said they had his father's consent. I told him he didnt have the legal authority to give that consent, and that they should not treat him in the future unless they had written consent from me (only "legal" parent.) When my son was in school, gma spoke (twice!)with his teacher about having him moved up to first grade, totally without consulting me first! She was only supposed to be picking him up from school. When ds' dad and his mother are together, they fight constantly, about *everything*...my family just isnt like that at all. When we went down there last month, i was shocked at how much fighting there was just driving down the street in the car, i found it pretty stressful. She uses the word "idiot" as a term of endearment for her kids. I guess all the fighting is benign in that its about stupid stuff like the best way to get to the destination, and then they insult each other....but i find it all really weird. Although she's gotten ALOT better, for the longest time she was really insulting and disrespectful to my son about anything he was interested in...if he was watching cartoons, she'd talk about how stupid they are. Or if he likes videogames, again how stupid. She improved alot when i threatened to cut off unsupervised visits.

The thing is, she totally thinks she is being nice and helpful. But there are always strings attached. Her sons, both adults, do not know how to say "no" to her, so ds' dad is supportive of ds learning this early on. He knows how much drama its caused in his life, but its easier for him to give in then to start being firm w/ her now. She really is the type of person who would practically give you the clothes of her back if you needed them, she cosigned on my car, she will loan money to you at a moment's notice. I just think she's so used to browbeating her family into getting her way, that it totally freaks her out when someone says "No"...i couldnt be too firm when i lived there, but after moving away, and our only contact being email, it was pretty easy to stick to my guns about things (like uh...deciding to not put my child in school even though she wanted me to)...i think it makes her feel powerless. Oh well. I think one day hopefully she will learn you don't have to buy people, that if you are pleasant to be around people will want to spend time w/ you.'

I'm just glad ds' dad isnt holding this against me...we've gotten to a really good place where we are getting along very well, and i want to keep it that way. Usually in the past when we've had problems, its because of the interference of his mother.

Katherine


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I hope you enjoy the party! And I agree that it's not "just about a book". Have a great weekend!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm glad your ds realizes the way Grandma's acting/feeling is not his problem. And I'm glad your ds's dad wants to break the cycle, and help his son be assertive when he needs to with Grandma.

It sounds like some very positive things are coming out of this. Have a fun weekend, all!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 

I also think that something very important that's being overlooked - or maybe just dismissed - is that this *is* a family function. The OP and her son is a family, they have planned to share something that is exciting and important to them, and their family event is just as important. Maybe now *I'm* projecting







, but it seriously bugs me when someone assumes that a custodial parent should just set aside a special event because the non-custodial parent comes up with a conflict.

AMEN!!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i guess the op and her ds are busy reading right now - i wonder how they got on i hope they had a fabulous time - happy reading katherine


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Hey OP, I'm just wondering, how did everything work out? Did you have a good time at the book launch? Has grandma forgiven all?


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

****


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Hey OP, I'm just wondering, how did everything work out? Did you have a good time at the book launch? Has grandma forgiven all?

I was too afraid to bump an old topic back to the top!









Lets see....we had a good time getting the book. It was my sister, my other sister's daughter who is 12, my son, and me. Son and niece were wearing their trusty cloaks, my son had a staff that i'd gotten him at a pagan-y store recently. They looked pretty cool. First, we stopped at Borders Express/Waldenbooks to check out their party. They were fairly packed. Not too much going on though. We saw one woman who looked very McGonagallish, standing all alone, very stern, with an anti-Snape sticker (they were giving out pro and anti snape stickers)......she had a great costume, i mean i was even afraid to say hi. My sister marched over and struck up a conversation, turns out she was only wearing the sticker because her granddaughter wanted the other---purple---one. Then we had a convo about how great Alan Rickman is.







:

Then, it was on to Borders at the mall...oh geez, a huge line from the front door all the way down the building. We asked one girl what the line was for..."to get in i think"...but my sister found out it was the line to get wristbands that would determine your place in line to get the book. Well, we had a secret plan of where to get the book without standing in line with a hundred other people, so we just went in to enjoy the party. They had facepainting, a costume contest (saw a really good Luna, Neville, and some adult wizard types who must go to conventions because they had awesome detailed costumes)...there were so many people it was claustrophobic. Oh, saw a bunch of girls dressed up in quidditch costumes, that was neat.

Then the kids wanted to move on, so we hit McDonalds, and then on to Meijer which was supposedly having a party too. (for those dont know, meijer is kind of like WalMart but with groceries, and a union)...the kids looked so cool traipsing into meijer in cloaks (there were people there just getting groceries), and there was a line all the way from the front doors to the back where the books are. I said out loud "Is this the line already!?" and a woman said "Yep this is the line" (kind of like, and get in the back lady!)...we checked out what was going on at the front of the line, not much, they had cake. They wanted the kids to sign up for the costume contest (they were giving away free books and other things)but i guess they arent joiners because they really didnt want to. I think they were more into checking everything out and then moving on to the next party.

About this time we decided to go to the secret location so we could get in line for the book (it was probably 11:30)...it was the same place we got HBP, which was....Kroger!!! The dinky little Kroger grocery store down the street from my mom's was staying open til 12:30 just to sell the book. Last time, it was basically us four, and some guy stopping by on his way home from work to get the book for his daughter. This time, it was two pairs of teenage girls and their moms, so four people ahead of us in line. Then a group of about five teen boys showed up behind us, and then a dad and his daughter. That was it!! The kids went off to look at groceries while we talked about the pros and cons of the GoF movie, and whether Snape is good or not. The kids came back, got their pics taken by a witch who worked there and were given free root beer floats, and everyone got their books.

We were back in the car on the way home by 12:09! I felt kinda sorry for all those people standing in line in Meijer. We tried, really tried to finish the book quickly, but in the end we didnt read the last words until 7:30 Tuesday morning. Do you know how hard it is to read out loud while you're blubbering like a baby??









So, overall my son said he was really glad that he stayed home, although in retrospect i think he could have probably gone on vacation...given that we didnt even finish the book right away, and managed to avoid any spoilers along the way. But he's not sorry he missed it.

We havent heard from his dad at all though. He is supposed to be coming up here next weekend so i guess we will see him then.

Katherine


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i am glad you had such a great time


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## angel_miette (Jul 25, 2007)

My thoughts have to do with some life experiences.
First when I was a kid there was something really important to me that I was suppose to do and suddenly my parents changed plans and took us to Florida to visit family and we got to go to Disney and Epcot. Ok so even now I look back and say WOW I really wish I could have done that other thing because it is something I was very pasionate about, who cares that I got to go to Disney when it rewened what I could have done. I mean really rewened it for the rest of my life.
I have a 6 year old daughter who lives with her Dad, for awhile he lived with his parents before he got his own place. And his Mom is a real controling obnoxious woman which made my daughter really misserable. I had a difficult time getting to see her because of this woman. Now that my daughters Dad is on his own I don't have any problems at all seeing her, even my parents can pick her up to see her when they make plans.
So I'd say if your sons father is being controlled by his obnoxious Mom then don't give in, but do let him see his son at another time very soon.
I know it's a bit late for this advice since the book already came out, but keep this in mind when there may be other incidents. If your son really wants to do something then let him choose to do it because he might start resenting his Dad if he's always rewening his plans. And you want him to have a good relationship with his Dad. Now on the other hand if he's always making other decisions to get out of visiting his Dad then making him go is probably in his best interest because kids need both parents.

Angel Miette


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I was too afraid to bump an old topic back to the top!









Lets see....we had a good time getting the book. It was my sister, my other sister's daughter who is 12, my son, and me. Son and niece were wearing their trusty cloaks, my son had a staff that i'd gotten him at a pagan-y store recently. They looked pretty cool. First, we stopped at Borders Express/Waldenbooks to check out their party. They were fairly packed. Not too much going on though. We saw one woman who looked very McGonagallish, standing all alone, very stern, with an anti-Snape sticker (they were giving out pro and anti snape stickers)......she had a great costume, i mean i was even afraid to say hi. My sister marched over and struck up a conversation, turns out she was only wearing the sticker because her granddaughter wanted the other---purple---one. Then we had a convo about how great Alan Rickman is.







:

Then, it was on to Borders at the mall...oh geez, a huge line from the front door all the way down the building. We asked one girl what the line was for..."to get in i think"...but my sister found out it was the line to get wristbands that would determine your place in line to get the book. Well, we had a secret plan of where to get the book without standing in line with a hundred other people, so we just went in to enjoy the party. They had facepainting, a costume contest (saw a really good Luna, Neville, and some adult wizard types who must go to conventions because they had awesome detailed costumes)...there were so many people it was claustrophobic. Oh, saw a bunch of girls dressed up in quidditch costumes, that was neat.

Then the kids wanted to move on, so we hit McDonalds, and then on to Meijer which was supposedly having a party too. (for those dont know, meijer is kind of like WalMart but with groceries, and a union)...the kids looked so cool traipsing into meijer in cloaks (there were people there just getting groceries), and there was a line all the way from the front doors to the back where the books are. I said out loud "Is this the line already!?" and a woman said "Yep this is the line" (kind of like, and get in the back lady!)...we checked out what was going on at the front of the line, not much, they had cake. They wanted the kids to sign up for the costume contest (they were giving away free books and other things)but i guess they arent joiners because they really didnt want to. I think they were more into checking everything out and then moving on to the next party.

About this time we decided to go to the secret location so we could get in line for the book (it was probably 11:30)...it was the same place we got HBP, which was....Kroger!!! The dinky little Kroger grocery store down the street from my mom's was staying open til 12:30 just to sell the book. Last time, it was basically us four, and some guy stopping by on his way home from work to get the book for his daughter. This time, it was two pairs of teenage girls and their moms, so four people ahead of us in line. Then a group of about five teen boys showed up behind us, and then a dad and his daughter. That was it!! The kids went off to look at groceries while we talked about the pros and cons of the GoF movie, and whether Snape is good or not. The kids came back, got their pics taken by a witch who worked there and were given free root beer floats, and everyone got their books.

We were back in the car on the way home by 12:09! I felt kinda sorry for all those people standing in line in Meijer. We tried, really tried to finish the book quickly, but in the end we didnt read the last words until 7:30 Tuesday morning. Do you know how hard it is to read out loud while you're blubbering like a baby??









So, overall my son said he was really glad that he stayed home, although in retrospect i think he could have probably gone on vacation...given that we didnt even finish the book right away, and managed to avoid any spoilers along the way. But he's not sorry he missed it.

We havent heard from his dad at all though. He is supposed to be coming up here next weekend so i guess we will see him then.

Katherine


Glad you had such a good time. I will tell you though that we simply got our wrist bands at Noon at a big Barnes and Noble and then got back around 9:00 for the party.

Although there were 500 people "in line' everyone had their book by 12:25. We were number 150 and had ours at 12:09!


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