# Anyone familiar with "123 Magic"?



## SunnyOne (Sep 6, 2002)

Hi all,
I am looking for input from other AP (or Waldorf) parents. DS is almost 4 and I just had boy #2 a month ago so there is a lot of adjustment/transition going on in our house. My husband has long felt that we needed a better structure for discipline (he is more strict than I) and I have started to agree as DS is exhibiting behaviors that we need to address. A book called 123 Magic was recommended and we both read it. DH thinks we should try the approach in this book. I am not so sure. It is basically a time-out process but it just feels too controlling to me- not very Waldorf, that's for sure. So I am really interested in thoughts from people familiar with the approach. Thanks so much for your input, Sunny


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

For me personally, I think it is too punitive. However, I know some people who wanted to GD, but had been doing no discipline for so long that they needed something like this book to get them started. Once the gained some balance, they were able to lighten up. They began with 123 Magic, then were able to implement a gentler strategy.

I think that since you know the root cause of the behavior, it probably would not be necssary for you to take such an authoritarian approach. You can address the behaviors from the cause, not the effect. You did not mention specifically what is going on, but if you know the trigger, it is easier to prevent.

Again for me, I would work on stronger attachment, preventing the pitfalls and trying really hard to see the world through his eyes. I would be afraid that at the time DS needs you the most, you would be instituting guidelines that push him away. Siblings Without Rivalry has a really good perspective: What if DH brought home another wife? How would you react? Older sibs are in a similar situation. If you can see it from that angle, it may help.

Goodluck.


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## SunnyOne (Sep 6, 2002)

Thank you. You reaffirmed exactly what I've been trying to explain to DH. If only I could get him to understand... I've asked him to read some chapters from Dr Sears Discipline Book but he hasn't had a chance yet.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I'm not familiar with the book, but there have been a number of discussions here about it. You could do a search in the GD forum and find a bunch of different opinions, I'm sure.

I've heard good things about Siblings without Rivalry, too--might help in your situation. Also, there is a "sticky" at the top of the GD page with a list of different discipline books--might be a good place to start.

Good luck!


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## chiedza (Nov 8, 2002)

I read it and we tried it for a couple of weeks when my DS was 2. It did not go well! He screamed through every time out and when he would count his misbehaviors 1-2-3 he would start yelling at us, "No! You get two!" and the like. We gave it up and don't do time out anymore.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

I don't agree with 123 magic at all. I have a problem with time outs, and I think the book is more about control, than actually teaching our kids.
The Sears discipline book is a better read, imo.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

Here's a link to an interesting article about time outs that might help your DH think it thru a bit...

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/to.htm


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

It works for us. And I don't have a problem with time outs, for me too!


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I found 1-2-3 Magic to work well with my DS#1 in most situations (still woking on finding a better way to deal with misbehavior in the car). I have no problem with time-outs either.


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## SunnyOne (Sep 6, 2002)

Thanks for the input. I did also find the older thread on the book. I also ordered 3 books from the library that are from the list at the top of the GD page. Thanks also to Bippity- I sent the link to the article to DH. I am more optimistic that we will find alternatives bc I'm just not comfortable with the 123 magic approach right now. Thanks for all your comments!


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

My dd was making my life a living hell with her behaviors and I was seriously wondering if she needed another family because it was not working in ours. The school psych lady recommended it and I was a bit offended and horrified at the time. A couple months later at work they put the 1-2-3 Magic video in the library at work so I checked it out and watched it. The program was not as bad as I thought and I gave it a try. The first week was HELL, she threw everything she had at me behavior wise. The 2nd week things got better and now its been a few months and life is much much better. I dont know what's in the book but I highly encourage anyone who's thinking about it to spend $20 on the video and watch it. Its about 3 hours long but worth the watch imo. Now I rarely get to 3 and if I do its because dd is out of control and NEEDS that time to regain control of herself. 99% of the time she's in a much better mood when she comes out of her room or rather the hallway as that's where she usually parks her rear when I send her to time out and its not worth the fight to push for the extra 2 feet when it works just the same. For those who it didn't work for you may not have been doing the program right. That's why I like the video, it shows scenarios and stuff.


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## terrarose (Dec 2, 2004)

Personally, I don't agree with it. I think it's better to discuss things with my kids. Obviously, there is a limit but I think it can be handled differently. Timeouts here are self imposed. Even my 3o has been known to say, "I need to be alone right now!" and off he goes. I agree with whoever said that it might hel while you work on different ways to set limits as long as it wasn't used too often. I would also suggest Sears and "How to Seak so Your Child Will Listen and Listen so Your Child Will SpeaK" Also, Barbara Colorosa had good insight into natural consequences. Anway, all the best to you in finding solutions that sit well with ou and work for your family!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Try "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf

It's a very middle of the road book. It is GD but not AP.

It does not believe in classic time outs, in the sense of you have something wrong and need to be away for X amount of time. He does believe that if kids are driving you crazy with poor behavior they should be told to go away until they can calm down. I personally like this approach, but I know not everyone agrees with it.

He does not beleive in punishment. He believes the only nec consequence for most misbehavior is an expression of (mild) displeasure from parents.

He does favor some logical consequences. Like he has no problem with say taking away a toy truck that is being used to scratch up a table, But he would not take it away for some unrelated misbehavior.

It really is a way of parenting that is good for people who believe in a "parent in charge" way of doing things, but don't want punishment to be part of their lives.

Some of my very AP friends have given the book to their DH's. Its methods are more "controlling" than my friends like, but their DH's use them and my friends can live with this method.

In fact one of Wolf's theories is that parents don't have to do everything the same. That kids can understand 'With mama I can ask for a reason and negotiate, but with dad I just have to do what is asked."


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Out of curiosity I checked out the 1-2-3 Magic author's websitewww.parentmagic.com . There is a lot of information/advice there, and it is terrible, in my opinion.

His basic goal is to get kids to either do what you want or stop them from doing something you don't want. He says 1-2-3 Magic is a way to give them consequences to do this. The consequence seems to be time-out. He advocates not speaking to the child during the time-out, and only discussing it afterwards if it was a new or unusual situation the child might not have understood the rules for. So, how is the kid supposed to learn or come up with strategies here?

Here are some of the most glaring excerpts:

Quote:

Temper tantrums are one of the Six Kinds of Testing and Manipulation tactics discussed in 1-2-3 Magic. Displays of temper are obvious aggressive attacks.
Agressive attacks? Testing and manipulation? Why not just an outburst of emotions they can't process? Does he think kids like feeling this way? That it is worth the sobbing and hysteria just to aggressively attack mom and dad?

Quote:

But be careful, because by now you know kids are tricky.
And out to get you, apparantly. So not compatible with the basic assumption of GD that kids are honestly trying to do the right thing.

Quote:

Martyrdom is one of the Six Kinds of Testing and Manipulation tactics discussed in 1-2-3 Magic and is a favorite of children. "No one around here loves me anymore," "I never get anything," or "You like her more than me" are examples. The youngster may actually do something self-punitive such as not eating dinner, sitting in a closet for an hour or just staring out the window without talking. The goal is to make the parent feel guilty. If you give in to the child and give her what she wants, the testing and manipulation will end, but your child will learn that her tactics work and will repeat them.
Sitting in a closet for an hour or staring out the window without talking is testing and manipulating the parent? Isn't this a cry for help? Children are not normally prone to anti-social behavior. How could you not go to your child with empathy and compassion in these situations?! God forbid your kid learns that you will treat them with love and tenderness, they'll keep demanding it!

Quote:

Yes, the 1-2-3 Magic program works well with most children. Special needs kids simply need the program more!
I can't begin to express how twisted I think this comment it.

His advice on kids with separation anxiety who are crying and screaming at daycare/school is this:

Quote:

Bite your upper lip and become the Master of the Quick Exit. When dropping children off (or leaving home), kiss the kids goodbye, tell them when you'll see them again and get out of there!
Nice.

His approach seems so antithetical to Attachment Parenting and GD.

This article on The Natural Child website addresses this method: "One, Two..."
Teaching Through Love Instead of Fear http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pam_leo2.html

Quote:

Counting at a child communicates, "I am bigger and more powerful than you and you 'd better do as I say or I'm going to (in some way) hurt you." When a big kid says to a smaller one, "Do what I say or I'm going to hurt you," we call it bullying. When an adult communicates the same thing to a child by counting, we call it discipline. When we treat children in ways that take away their dignity we teach them how to take away other's dignity. If we want kids to stop bullying, we have to stop bullying kids. The power of fear is easy and quick but short-lived. The power of love requires more work and takes longer but children never outgrow its influence. Children count on us to teach them the way, so let's stop counting at them.


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## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

I bought 1-2-3 Magic and have read a good bit of it and I will tell you that I do not agree with the guy's overall philsophy on kids. But, I think the counting *can* be effective. What the counting does is take the arguments, threats, fights,etc., out of it (if done right, which is hard!) That is a good thing! I am a firm believer in being firm, not nasty, but firm with kids and that there *are* times when you just have to do what you gotta do.
Today was a good example. I had my 4 yr old dd and her 3.5 yr old friend with me at the petstore. We were there only for their sake, b/c it was too cold for the park and we had the dog with us. So, we went to look aroung at whatever they wanted to see. I was sweet and upbeat with them the whole trip, with gentle reminders to stay close and be good listeners. At the check-out they both wanted to touch those little furry mice you can buy for your cat. No problem there, there were plenty for them both to touch. But they were bickering over them, and I tried several times to resolve the bickering while they stood close to an older gentleman paying for his stuff. It escalated and I asked them to each stand on a separate side of me, away from the mice. They didn't budge, so I picked dd up and moved her to my right side and picked friend up and moved her to my left side. Friend griped about it but nothing big, so I just went about my business and then redirected the girls to get a free treat for the dog.
So, this was a pretty good solution IMO. I am curious if others would not agree with the physically moving them firmly away with a no-nonsense attitude?
And, my main question here is- what in the heck do you do when your child is being rude or unkind to other people if you do not believe in time-outs, punishments,etc.???
I am onboard with this thinking in most situations, only I have yet to find a non-punitive solution to my dd being a real butthead to other people or just inconsiderate, unsharing, etc. I find I cannot just talk about it and redirect, or any other gentle method when she is being outwardly unkind to others. Please tell me what you do b/c I can't figure it out! I want to know b/c I hate to be punitive, as I am becoming more and more!
So, what do you do if your child has a friend over and just refuses to share a toy (after you have put up what she told you she did not want to share prior to friend coming over).
Or, if your child repeatedly spits or gets big attitude with you when you are being as kind as can be and trying to figure out why she is acting this way (like when it seems to come from nowhere)
Or, if she is just not wanting to listen to you, even when you are doing something fun for her (like the park)?
Didn't mean to high-jack the thread, I am just curious what those opposed to counting and time-outs (not that I am a huge fan!), do when the child/children act out?
Sara


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I bought the book, readit, tried to implement it and ended up throwing it away.

there are much better books.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

We did a modified version of it. Lots more talking about why they were doing what they were doing than the author recommends. But if the talking didn't work, then the counting started. I think in a month of using it, dd got all the way to 3, and the time out maybe 4-5 times. We also didn't use the "add X minutes for your bad attitude or whatever". I think 5 min of time out is PLENTY, no matter the infraction. Oh, and we didn't just pretend nothing happened when she came back from the time out. We'd give lots of hugs and kisses and reassure her that we loved her no matter what, but that certain behaviors just weren't acceptable, and talk about what she could do next time instead of whatever it was that got her the time out.

We actually haven't used it in a long time. It helped us get through one particular phase dd was having (whining, hitting, tantrums, throwing things, etc) and then we just didn't need it anymore, because less punitive methods worked just fine. I think it's pretty good for that, when you are having one particular problem, where no other method of discipline is getting through. Just for every day toddler/preschooler stuff though? Nah.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
And, my main question here is- what in the heck do you do when your child is being rude or unkind to other people if you do not believe in time-outs, punishments,etc.???
I am onboard with this thinking in most situations, only I have yet to find a non-punitive solution to my dd being a real butthead to other people or just inconsiderate, unsharing, etc. I find I cannot just talk about it and redirect, or any other gentle method when she is being outwardly unkind to others. Please tell me what you do b/c I can't figure it out! I want to know b/c I hate to be punitive, as I am becoming more and more!
So, what do you do if your child has a friend over and just refuses to share a toy (after you have put up what she told you she did not want to share prior to friend coming over).
Or, if your child repeatedly spits or gets big attitude with you when you are being as kind as can be and trying to figure out why she is acting this way (like when it seems to come from nowhere)
Or, if she is just not wanting to listen to you, even when you are doing something fun for her (like the park)?
Didn't mean to high-jack the thread, I am just curious what those opposed to counting and time-outs (not that I am a huge fan!), do when the child/children act out?
Sara


I do think physically moving small children, as long as you are handling them gently and calmly is FINE.

As for sharing with a friend, I would tell my dd, that she has to do so. If she still refused, I would call her aside and tell her that we had to end the playdate because she was not doing a good job of playing with her friend. If we couldn't end the playdate, I would try to make the friend happy, OPENLY apologize to the child and the mother when she came. I would ask my dd to apologize (though I know it might not happen).

After the playdate, I would tell my dd that I was disapointed in how she acted and expected her to do better the next time.

As for a "big attitude" or "not listening" I would not pay too much attention. I do express unhappiness with chores not done. If they are rude, I NEVER talk about it when we are in the middle of something else (like telling them to clean up) I focus on the task at hand, later I might mention it.

For example, Here is how it goes in our house

You: "DD please put the sand toys away now."

DD: No!!!!

You: Yes its time to go now (NOTE that you should not say "don't say no to me)

DD: I hate you. I won't do it.

YOU: Its time to go or we will be late pick them up now please (NoTE that you don't need to comment on her "hatred")

Now maybe she will do it. If so just say "thank you" and move on. Don't say "Why do you have to give me a hard time when I was nice ennough to take you to the park)

But maybe she won't:

DD: NO!!!!!

YOU: (after picking them up yourself) "DD it is your job to pick up the sand toys at the park. I do not like that I had to do it. Next time I expect you to do this."

I do want to say that alot of my attitude is based on the fact that, unlike with everyone else of the face of the earth, I am not suprised that my own kindness to my kids does not result in kindness back. That is not the nature of a parent child relationship. That does not mean I like it when my kids act that way, but really it has no effect on my overall feelings torward them.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
It escalated and I asked them to each stand on a separate side of me, away from the mice. They didn't budge, so I picked dd up and moved her to my right side and picked friend up and moved her to my left side. Friend griped about it but nothing big, so I just went about my business and then redirected the girls to get a free treat for the dog.
So, this was a pretty good solution IMO. I am curious if others would not agree with the physically moving them firmly away with a no-nonsense attitude?

I think that's a good solution--it's what I would've done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
what in the heck do you do when your child is being rude or unkind to other people if you do not believe in time-outs, punishments,etc.???

I explain that it's rude and offer an alternative. Right now we are going through something like this. We have dear friends who live on our block (they are my son's godparents) and they spend a lot of time here and we go there quite a bit, too. Anyway, my son (age 3) has become very enamored with one of them and has been quite "open" about his preference, "No X! I don't want you to do it, I want Y!" I just lean in close and say, "That's rude to X. You could say, 'No thank you X, could Y do it with me instead?'" And he is happy to say that instead--he doesn't want to hurt X (in fact, up until a few weeks ago X was his favorite--he just wasn't beings so exclusive), he just really, really wants Y. And that's legitimite--he just needs to be shown an appropriate way to express it, you know?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
So, what do you do if your child has a friend over and just refuses to share a toy (after you have put up what she told you she did not want to share prior to friend coming over).

I encourage him to share and let him know that he is upsetting his friend. I ask if he would like to trade his toy for something else or if he would please give his friend a turn. If he absolutely does not want to come off the toy, I apologize the the other child and explain that Sam is not ready to share that toy right now. I offer another toy to the child and tell her that when Sam is done, she can have a turn. Usually, the minute the hub-bub dies down, sharing occurs and I thank both children--for sharing and for being so patient. This has gotten soooooo much better lately. Sam used to be *very* possesive of his toys, but now he usually offers it right up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
Or, if your child repeatedly spits or gets big attitude with you when you are being as kind as can be and trying to figure out why she is acting this way (like when it seems to come from nowhere)

I say, "Stop! It's gross when you spit like that. I hate it." and I move away if I have to. I'll say, "I don't want to be with you when you're spitting like that. When you stop, I'll come back." Attitude is pretty much the same, "That's rude. I don't like it when you yell at me. Please stop." But, with attitude I'll say, "You're frustrated that I cut the yarn instead of you. I'm sorry, I didn't know. How about try, 'Mommy, *I* wanted to do that! Can I have the scissors, please?'" And he will! And I make sure I respond very positively, "SURE, Sam! Here you go!" Almost a game.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanner*
Or, if she is just not wanting to listen to you, even when you are doing something fun for her (like the park)?

I guess it would depend on what it was--but, mostly I would explain the reason--like safety or sharing or whatever.

Overall, I just try to show him acceptable choices and explain why his actions aren't so hot. He just turned 3 and he's really starting to 'get it.' Now he uses it on us! "Daddy, that wasn't a good choice! That hurts Mommy!" if we are goofing around my husband swats at my butt as I walk by. :LOL


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

Funny, I was picking up some discipline type books from the library, that I found on the sticky thread here, and the librarian suggested 123 Magic. I looked it up at the library, saw this listed as the subtitle: "Training your children to do what you want!" and decided it probably wasn't for me!


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## SunnyOne (Sep 6, 2002)

Yes, I've decided it's not for us either, although I'm still working to get dh on board with that decision. I've been reading Easy to Love, Diff to Discipline and I just love it. It is very articulate at saying exactly what I've been trying to say to dh. I've asked him to read the first chapter so we can discuss it. Hopefully he will keep reading after that...


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Another no-punishment approach is Positive Discipline. Check out Positive Time-Out: and 50 Other Ways to Avoid Power Struggles in the Home and Classroom. It's full of great ideas and really tells you about the harm punitive time-out can cause to children. It's by Jane Nelsen.

I highly recommend it!

Cheers,


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

We use it and it has made a huge improvement in our home. Trying to reason with my extremely strong willed, attorney in training, older child was a non-starter.


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