# How would you handle this? *maybe triggery?*



## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Dh and I are faced with a difficult situation and could use an outside perspective. We're so close we can't tell if the ideas we're discussing are over reactions, under reactions, or what.

Ds is 13. He will be 14 in about a month. Up until last week, he had never kissed a girl, or really had much interest in doing so. He tends to be a little oblivious to such concepts, still. He is enrolled in an online high school as an incoming freshman. This is a public school. Every year, the school has an end of summer camping trip for high school students. It lasts 4 days, 3 nights. Families can come with and camps separately, but most students come alone. We were having transportation issues and ds was very anxious for some independence, so we sent him on his own. He flies alone to visit family across the US, so this was not his first time away from us or anything. The parent volunteer in charge of the camping trip connected us with a local family for ds to ride with. I took the extra step of meeting them ahead of time before entrusting my son to their care. They seemed like a really sweet family. Their child was a very quiet 16yr old girl that basically never looked up from her phone the whole time.

They were leaving early in the morning so we dropped ds off the evening before and he slept on their couch. We didn't know, but a 17 (will be 18 the day before ds turns 14) yr old girl was dropped off after ds. The kids were not monitored and the girls spent much of the night sexually harassing ds and trying to coerce him into sexual activities. By the time they left for the camping trip, ds had seen both of them topless, had his first kiss (he's not even sure with which one, as a lot happened with both), and been thoroughly groped. Things only escalated from there. By the end of the camping trip, he had showered naked with both girls alone and at the same time, and quite a lot had happened. There was no oral sex or intercourse, but that's about where the line was drawn. Most of the activity was initiated by the 17yr old. There was also another boy being treated the same way, but with most activity initiated by the 16yr old girl. That boy is 15, and ds was led to believe they began pursuing the other boy when he was around 13 and this kind of thing happens with them very regularly at school events and when the parents allow the kids to spend time together unattended otherwise.

Ds is very confused about what his part in all this was. He started off being shocked and scared and clearly saying no and pushing the girls away. Eventually, he was only saying no to more extreme acts but participating without coersion. He feels guilty and powerless. What transpired was a mixture of him making choices he deeply regrets, and these girls coercing or sometimes physically forcing unwanted acts on him. Both consensual and non-consensual acts - neither of which can be proven. However they began years ago, the acts with the other boy are entirely consensual now.

The only one thing dh and I are sure of and agree on right now is that

1) ds needs to see a therapist asap

2) that he needs to be isolated socially from this group of kids

3) that neither kid will be going to any future school activities without dh or I present

We are brand new to the state and not familiar with local resources. So, we are going to meet with a church leader (hopefully today) about getting a referral to a therapist through the church. The church will most likely help cover the costs, as well. We're not super fundamentalist or anything though - so don't worry that ds is going to be told he's going to hell or something.

Other ideas that have been discussed are

1) reporting the incident to the school

2) reporting the incident to the police/cps

3) discussing the incident with the other children's parents

4) avoiding all contact with the other children's parents

5) moving to a different part of the state (would involve breaking our lease, but we could pull it off. Ds would not have to face these kids at school events 4+ hours away, and honestly neither kid is making friends here because they can't find many kids that don't spend their spare time harming themselves or others)

6) doing right by all the kids involved vs. keeping our heads down, mouths shut, and taking care of our own without regard for others

Ideas and input are welcome.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I have to be honest... I would likey pull my kid from this school and enroll him locally (seriously - this is more extreme than anything either of my kids dealt with in public school). And yes, I would let the school know why you have withdrawn your son.

I would likely ask the other parents "what the hell?"

Cops, CPS? Will likely require more proof than your son said it happened.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> Other ideas that have been discussed are
> 
> ...


I'd think reporting to the school administration, the board of the school (which is separate and may not know what is going on) and the police are the right steps. The school is required by law to report this, but they may not, so I would.

I'm on the board of school. This is extremely serious. Taking appropriate actions can help protect other children. I wouldn't bother with the other parents because their responses are pretty much wild cards.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Ooh, I am so, so sorry your son had to experience this!









I, like the others, would definitely report this. Both to the school and to the police. These girls are abusing young boys!!

Big, big hugs to you all!


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I would not go to the police, cps or anything like that. That is overreacting, imo.

I would go to the school & the school board. With the police, cps & the school/board it will be your dh's word against theirs(and they will most likely deny it or say your DS/the other boy initiated it.

However I would want to know why these kids were not supervised during this(and previous) camping trips. How was your son able to shower alone with both girls plus do other stuff with them, and these girls do it to at least 1 other boy. Where were the adults?

My dd is the same age as your son(14 in nov) & has been going to a summer camp for 3 years now. The kids at this camp are aged from 9-18 with some of the young adults there too. The boys stay in 1 dorm, the girls in another. Boys are not allowed in the girls dorm & the girls are not allowed in the boys dorm. They have had some of the younger boys staying in the basement(dorm rooms still) in the girls dorm but they are not allowed on the girls floors & vice versa. there are people supervising to make sure the kids stick to these rules.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Thank you all for your input. I just found all this out late last night, and dh and I are still processing and discussing. We can't contact the school until Monday morning, so there isn't a lot we can do right now. We have a meeting with a church leader to get set up with a referral for a therapist after church tomorrow. Ds is really having a rough day and I feel so bad for him. =(

Carrie, that's the kind of supervision we are used to at organized events and were led to believe would be offered on the camping trip. I'm astounded that they would encourage new families to send their children to this alone, then allow something like this to happen!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieMF*
> 
> I would not go to the police, cps or anything like that. That is overreacting, imo.


When any person is sexually assaulted, calling the police is the appropriate thing to do. The OPer's son was sexually assaulted repeatedly.

Also, the police and the school board need to know if there is a pattern of lack of supervision at the school that makes it unsafe for students. Students have a right to be safe at school (and all school events). This is a matter of public trust, both at public schools and at private schools. This is a police matter.

The school is required by law to report this, but because they ALLOW this pattern to continue, I wouldn't trust them to do so.

Incorrigible, I'm so sorry for what your son has been and for what your family is going through right now. I think you and your DH are handling a very difficult situation as well as possible.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

This will probably be an un popular answer, but I think for the sake of his mental health and his current and future attitude about sex, it might be best to minimize your reaction. I would not go to the police, but definitely would talk to the other parents and would talk to the school/camp about the lack of supervision.. I have two teenagers, and I would be very upset if this happened to either of them, too, but I feel like how you respond will make a powerful difference in how he processes this, for a long time to come. Though sexual play is normal for adolescents, it sounds like this was quite a bit more than simple flirting. These girls sound very aggressive, and they need to be talked to about their behavior, and they need to be taught some healthy boundaries. I just feel that responding too strongly might make things even worse for your son. You said that at first he was coerced but then began acting on his own- I imagine he has very mixed feelings about what happened and is very confused. Having to work that won't with a therapist (unless the already have an established relationship where your son feels safe) might be even more traumatic. He may just need some reassurance that all the feelings he has been having (negative and otherwise) are normal, and that his parents are addressing the situation with the girls' parents..


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## singin'intherain (Feb 4, 2006)

It would be easy for a lot of people to minimize this because the attackers were girls and the victim was a boy. But there is a huge difference between sexual abuse and sexual exploration, and it's about power. DS is younger, he's the new kid, he's inexperienced with sex, and he was outnumbered. No-one who is just learning about how sex works should be left with the impression that coercion or force are part of sex. What happened to him was sexual assault, and you need to treat it like sexual assault. He may feel guilty because he went along with what they wanted, but that was just a way to get through the situation. I don't know if calling the police would expose him to a humiliating round of "questioning" that so many rape victims are subjected to. That might traumatize him even more, especially since there's a good chance he won't be taken seriously. Still, they sexually assaulted him, have done it to others in the past, and will probably do it again. Just because they are girls, that doesn't make it ok for them to molest younger kids. Give the older girl a couple more months and she will go to jail for what she's doing, and spend the rest of her life having to register her address with the police.

Sorry, I really don't know what to do either, besides getting him the help he needs. I just feel badly if these girls are never stopped because no-one feels like they have enough proof to call the police. I think your ds' word is enough to at least get an investigation going- maybe that would scare them if nothing else.

Have you asked him what he would like to do about it?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would file a complaint and request a restraining order with the police. I would demand better supervision from the school or if your son wants to move I would do that and report why you are moving to the school board. I wouldn't tell the girl's parents because that will give them time to form a cover story if you do go to the police. I suggest reporting this ASAP.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> I feel like how you respond will make a powerful difference in how he processes this, for a long time to come.


I know a lot of people who were sexually assaulted before they were adults (partly because I'm fairly open about being sexually assaulted when I was 10). For those who managed to tell their parents (most don't) none found being minimized helpful.

Pretending that this isn't a big will not help.

This is a big deal. He said no repeatedly was pushed into sexual acts. This is a big deal. He deserves to have help and healing, just as a girl or woman would need after days of being sexually molested.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> *When any person is sexually assaulted, calling the police is the appropriate thing to do. The OPer's son was sexually assaulted repeatedly.*
> 
> ...


I agree, I feel like no one would hesitate if this were two 16 & 17 year old boys sexually assaulting a 13 year old girl. The idea of anyone not calling the police would be absurd. Why would it be any different this way?


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> This will probably be an un popular answer, but I think for the sake of his mental health and his current and future attitude about sex, it might be best to minimize your reaction. I would not go to the police, but definitely would talk to the other parents and would talk to the school/camp about the lack of supervision.. I have two teenagers, and I would be very upset if this happened to either of them, too, but I feel like how you respond will make a powerful difference in how he processes this, for a long time to come. Though sexual play is normal for adolescents, it sounds like this was quite a bit more than simple flirting. These girls sound very aggressive, and they need to be talked to about their behavior, and they need to be taught some healthy boundaries. I just feel that responding too strongly might make things even worse for your son. You said that at first he was coerced but then began acting on his own- I imagine he has very mixed feelings about what happened and is very confused. Having to work that won't with a therapist (unless the already have an established relationship where your son feels safe) might be even more traumatic. He may just need some reassurance that all the feelings he has been having (negative and otherwise) are normal, and that his parents are addressing the situation with the girls' parents..


I really agree with this. It might be hard to separate your reactions from his. He likely does have a lot of conflicting feelings, and may say things he thinks he should say or you want to hear? I have no doubt that he has regrets for parts that he was pushed into, and the girls do sound aggressive - but he is at the age when sexual exploration starts. If he wants to see a counselor, I'd do that. If he doesn't, I wouldn't force him to. I wouldn't involve police, CPS or the school as I think that could make things worse for your child. As parents, I'd follow his lead while trying to keep my cool as much as possible. Moving seems way over-reacting to me. I am confused as to how/when he'd see the girls - it is an online program or public school? I also think that there is a lot of difference between a 10 year old and a freshman in high school. I'm glad it didn't go past the line that you mentioned in your original post, and now both you and he have new knowledge about what your comfort levels are for new situations. I'd let it settle for a few days and proceed from there based on his requests - "how are you feeling about what happened at camp?" vs. yes or no questions. I do agree with Jennyanydots that your reactions to this can affect how he processes it, and how it affects him long term.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Kirsten - This is a PUBLIC SCHOOL that uses a variety of distance and in person learning programs. Ds's actual classes are online, which doesn't matter because these girls are much older and in different classes anyway. They also have access to him on the school message boards (where participation is mandatory and a part of your grade), and through the school's private mail system. The social and enrichment programs are a mixture of in person and online, and at least one of these girls is in every non-academic program. The school programs are their only social outlets. They participate in these heavily. That means that if he does anything more than attend classes, he will have to interact with his abusers. And lets be clear here that a 16 or 17 year old that forces and/or coerces a 13 year old into unwanted sexual activity is a sexual predator and abuser. That's not a debatable fact. It's also completely unacceptable to ever say that an abuse victim asking for help is only doing so because they think that's what someone wants to hear.

Thank you all for the opinions. Things are far from over, but I think I have a workable game plan. I can see that this thread is going to become a debate (hopefully an intelligent debate, instead of a heated one! lol). So, I'm not going to visit it much after this post. You all are welcome to debate the social issues surrounding our problems, but it wouldn't be good for me emotionally if I were to participate. I need to keep a calm head about these matters.

Ds just wants to live his life without fear. He's willing to take whatever actions needed to never have to see, hear from, or otherwise acknowledge these girls again. He also wants to make sure people in authority know how these girls behave so they can't do this kind of thing to someone else. The more his experiences and feelings come to the light, the more it seems he was trying to rationalize what happened by telling himself some of it was consensual. There was not a single interaction initiated by him, and his initial reaction was generally to say no or try to push them away. He was classifying "not continuing to push them away and say no for every second" as "agreeing". We're doing what we can to include him in the process where it is empowering and not further traumatizing. (more discussing options and making decisions together with him...but avoiding making him tell personal details to strangers. you get the idea)

As it stands:

- I strongly disagree with the idea that boys don't have the right to say no, or are incapable of wanting to say no.

- I also strongly disagree with the idea that boys rights are not important enough to stand up for.

- I do agree that how we handle this will shape my son's ideas about sexuality, power, and interpersonal relationships for life. Dh and I are showing him with our actions that it is never acceptable for anyone to be treated the way he was treated. Our goal is that he will never accept or imitate this kind of behavior in the future.

- Our church has offered to pay for ds's therapy. We have a referral to a group of child and family therapists who specialize in domestic violence and other common traumas. Ds will be able to choose which one he is most comfortable seeing. With his past traumas, he's very familiar and comfortable with the idea that a therapist is someone we hire to help us work through and understand our more complicated feelings. I'll be calling them tomorrow and expect he will have an appointment sometime this week.

- I will be calling the school tomorrow morning to report this. It is important that they know 1) the lack of supervision and 2) that there are sexual predators using their events to find victims. The older girl will be 18 in 2 weeks. Even if the other victim is no longer trying to protect himself, engaging in these behaviors will be a felony at that point.

- I cannot take out any kind of protective order on a minor in this state. In 2 weeks, when the older girl turns 18, I can take one out against her on ds's behalf. She was the primary instigator against ds. If she attempts to contact him or there is any threat of continued contact - I will do so at that time.

- I contacted an abuse hotline for our area for advice too. Because there was no penetration and there is no evidence beyond racy (underwear, not nude) pictures and text message sent to my son by these girls, CPS will not assign a caseworker and the police will not pursue the matter even if I want them to. I did this while he wasn't home, and won't be telling him. He doesn't need to feel any more helpless. He needs to be able to take actions and make choices and stand up for his rights.

- Dh and I have decided on what minimum actions we are willing to accept the school taking to protect ds from future contact. I'm willing to play hardball a little bit to make these things happen, but shouldn't have to. I think we've come up with a plan that would be acceptable even to someone that believes boys can't say no. A public school should be willing to take some simple actions to reduce the ability of younger sexually active students to access each other on campus. These are the kind of actions we expect.

- If the school administration has a surprisingly bad reaction of some kind, we will of course remove our kids. At that point, I will start taking action against the school administration. I would be very shocked if it got that bad though. This school is still pretty controversial locally, and they are unlikely to take a strong stance against someone willing to rock the boat. The fact that I won't back down should be enough for them to work with us toward a fair solution. We are not going to remove ds from a program that's so perfect for him in order to make it more convenient for a sexual predator to access other children, though. He isn't getting punished for her actions.

- We're also taking actions on our own. These kids keep making harassing texts and calls to ds. So, we deleted his phone's history and all saved info that related to them - and changed his phone number. We also deleted his facebook account outright. It's not been a particularly positive program for him anyway, and he doesn't need the temptation to see if they're still posting things about him.

As for moving. This is only a temporary residence for us. I mentioned we are new to the state. This was a comfortable place to land while we decided where we want to live. We had found the area we want to live in - before any of this happened. It's in another part of the state - a good 4 - 6 hour drive from here! (depending on weather and traffic) We are just waiting until our lease is up to move. If we give the management notice before doing so, there are no serious consequences for breaking our lease. We will just forfeit most of our deposit. DH and I have decided to start looking for a place to move. We're not putting a rush on it, but are actively looking for the just right place. If we find it before our lease is up, then we will break the lease. We have 2 more moves left in our foreseeable future. This one is to a comfortable home, near our acreage, while we spend a few years building our dream home (mostly ourselves). The next will be into that home. While we live here, ds will likely be unable to attend most of the in person enrichment and social activities without facing harassment and/or shame for standing up for himself. In our next location, he will be building real roots in the community and it's a community these girls aren't part of. The kids will have the same school, teachers, and classes. They will just have their social and enrichment activities with a different group of kids. We can make sure to heavily monitor these events, so even if there are more predators ds won't be an easy target again. Our entire household is comfortable with this game plan. Ds's relief is practically tangible, since we formed it. He has become very sensitive to the attentions of girls though, and wants to drop off the MMA team he trains with (lots of wrestling, and the girls always ask for him as a partner because he's basically unaware they are any different than boys), and hyper focus on academics (the girls that victimized him are not very studious and in remedial programs) and church activities. I hurt for him, and I'm angry for him, but I'm just keeping myself cerebral and logical.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

FWIW, I think you are doing the absolute right things.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

yeah im shocked in general just based on the thought that is the male/female roles were reversed this thread would have a very different tone. that is infuriating to me and truly shocking.

i few random thoughts from a girl that put a predator away in prison for what he did to me when i was 12:


minimizing it is a horrific betrayal of your child's trust, so is leading them into a version of the story that you want to hear. it is a nearly impossible line to walk as a emotional parent
you can normal sex and be sex positive while still having a strong harsh reaction to the misuse of sex as power. sexual assaults are not about sex, they are about power and manipulation, if you explain that first and separate the two things as much as possible, it is then easier to show someone how one is always bad and the other can be a beautiful thing in the right time and place.
there is no difference what so ever if the victim is a boy, if anything it may even be slightly harder on them, since they have been told by society that they are always supposed to be the strong one. all reactions you have should be the same for either sex.
victims, even if they don't mean it will start to have there memories shift and change, the story never stays the same, this is not about lying, it is just how the brain works. best to get the whole story out as fast and you can and recorded or witnessed by an official person. long repetitive taking about it will hurt the memories. counseling is probably best after the police report, not before it.

good luck, i feel for you and your son, this is hard. you sound like you care very much and are thinking about this very carefully, you will all get thru this.


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## greenemami (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I agree, I feel like no one would hesitate if this were two 16 & 17 year old boys sexually assaulting a 13 year old girl. The idea of anyone not calling the police would be absurd. Why would it be any different this way?


This exactly was my first reaction. I assume your hesitation is based on making your ds even more uncomfortable/upset by what happened and I understand that completely. I can imagine it is even harder for a boy to talk about something like this because he may feel like he was "supposed" to like it. I am so glad for him that he has a relationship with you that he felt he could come home and tell you what happened.


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## AAK (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> FWIW, I think you are doing the absolute right things.


Me too. . . you have a good game plan. I hope everything works out and your son is able to heal and move on.

Amy


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *greenemami*
> I am so glad for him that he has a relationship with you that he felt he could come home and tell you what happened.










It says a lot about the relationship you have built with your son up til now, and the level of trust he has in you.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

In response to the bolded - are you kidding me??? Overreacting? What if this was a 13 (almost 14) year old girl and a 17 year old boy?? Just because the boy was the victim doesn't mean it is still not sexual assault and a crime. According to the boy he said no. No means no. PERIOD. I would go to the police. Otherwise you are telling your son it is okay for him to be victimized because he is a boy. I cannot believe people think that it is overreacting to go to the police!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieMF*
> 
> *I would not go to the police, cps or anything like that. That is overreacting, imo.*
> 
> ...


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> This will probably be an un popular answer, but I think for the sake of his mental health and his current and future attitude about sex, it might be best to minimize your reaction. I would not go to the police, but definitely would talk to the other parents and would talk to the school/camp about the lack of supervision.. I have two teenagers, and I would be very upset if this happened to either of them, too, but I feel like how you respond will make a powerful difference in how he processes this, for a long time to come. Though sexual play is normal for adolescents, it sounds like this was quite a bit more than simple flirting. These girls sound very aggressive, and they need to be talked to about their behavior, and they need to be taught some healthy boundaries. I just feel that responding too strongly might make things even worse for your son. You said that at first he was coerced but then began acting on his own- I imagine he has very mixed feelings about what happened and is very confused. Having to work that won't with a therapist (unless the already have an established relationship where your son feels safe) might be even more traumatic. He may just need some reassurance that all the feelings he has been having (negative and otherwise) are normal, and that his parents are addressing the situation with the girls' parents..


How is it going to negatively affect his mental health and attitude about sex to be told that NO means NO and that he does not deserve to be sexually assaulted?? I work for a sexual assault crisis centre and you would not believe how horribly negative of an affect it has on people - well into adulthood - to know that their assault was NOT taken seriously and that their parents didn't view it as serious enough to take the appropriate actions. I swear, I feel like I am in the twilight zone reading this responses. Again - would you say the same thing if it were a 13 year old girl and a 17 year old boy? I highly doubt it.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> How is it going to negatively affect his mental health and attitude about sex to be told that NO means NO and that he does not deserve to be sexually assaulted?? I work for a sexual assault crisis centre and you would not believe how horribly negative of an affect it has on people - well into adulthood - to know that their assault was NOT taken seriously and that their parents didn't view it as serious enough to take the appropriate actions. I swear, I feel like I am in the twilight zone reading this responses. Again - would you say the same thing if it were a 13 year old girl and a 17 year old boy? I highly doubt it.


I was referring to getting police involved. And yep, I'd say the same thing, all things being equal, if genders were reversed. Having to recount his story over and over for multiple adults he doesnt know, IMO, could make an already painful experience even worse. Please don't be so rude and personal. The op asked for opinions and I offered mine.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> In response to the bolded - are you kidding me??? Overreacting? What if this was a 13 (almost 14) year old girl and a 17 year old boy?? Just because the boy was the victim doesn't mean it is still not sexual assault and a crime. According to the boy he said no. No means no. PERIOD. I would go to the police. Otherwise you are telling your son it is okay for him to be victimized because he is a boy. I cannot believe people think that it is overreacting to go to the police!


No I am not kidding you and I would feel the same if it was my own 13yo dd who was in this situation. The stuff at the house is the only stuff that I would consider a possible assault, but based on what the op said even if she were to go to the police over that nothing would happen. Calling CPS absolutely overreacting, what would cps possible do? The stuff at the camp, sounds more consentual unless the girls dragged him into the showers on at minimum 3 separate times. I would be all over the school on the lack of supervision. That is where the op should go first and I am very curious as to their response over this.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieMF*
> 
> No I am not kidding you and I would feel the same if it was my own 13yo dd who was in this situation. The stuff at the house is the only stuff that I would consider a possible assault, but based on what the op said even if she were to go to the police over that nothing would happen. Calling CPS absolutely overreacting, what would cps possible do? * The stuff at the camp, sounds more consentual unless the girls dragged him into the showers on at minimum 3 separate times.* I would be all over the school on the lack of supervision. That is where the op should go first and I am very curious as to their response over this.


But dont you think that once someone has been assaulted by someone that they might just consent because they dont know what else to do? That's like saying, "well, I know your boyfriend raped you, but after he raped you you let him have sex with you over and over again, so it was totally consensual". It's pretty likely that the boy had NO IDEA how to say "no" after the stuff at the house had happened. Just because something isnt forceful, doesnt mean it's not assault.

And for the record, I'd totally call the police if my child were assaulted.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

I just kind of need to vent and I figured this was an appropriate place for it. I called the school this morning and talked to the principal's secretary. She said she would have him call me back, so I'm going to be patient and hope he has a better attitude than she does. She was all ears until she asked for the names of the "older boys" involved. When I told her the older kids were girls, and the victims were boys, she was nothing but annoyed with me. She wouldn't even let me finish a sentence. She kept saying she's never even heard of this camping trip (it's annual and very well attended. There are pictures of previous trips on the facebook page for the high school portion of the school) and it isn't a school sponsored event (it was pushed for high schoolers on the school event system). All she wanted was off the phone. grrr....

In other news, ds has an appointment with a therapist tomorrow.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> I just kind of need to vent and I figured this was an appropriate place for it. I called the school this morning and talked to the principal's secretary. She said she would have him call me back, so I'm going to be patient and hope he has a better attitude than she does. She was all ears until she asked for the names of the "older boys" involved. When I told her the older kids were girls, and the victims were boys, she was nothing but annoyed with me. She wouldn't even let me finish a sentence. She kept saying she's never even heard of this camping trip (it's annual and very well attended. There are pictures of previous trips on the facebook page for the high school portion of the school) and it isn't a school sponsored event (it was pushed for high schoolers on the school event system). All she wanted was off the phone. grrr....


Keep pushing with the school. That the school would accept this as OK is completely deplorable. If the principal does not respond today, then write a letter. Keep a copy for your files. In fact, start keeping careful documentation over all of this. Every phone call etc. should be documented in a notebook. All names, dates, everything. You may want or need this in the future. If a written complaint doesn't get action within 24 hours of receipt, then move up the ladder. A public school means there is a school district office/superintendent somewhere -- call him/her. In necessary, write the school board. The school should absolutely stop this behavior in its tracks. For the sake of all the other children in the school, please pursue this until it has been stopped.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

The same secretary called back a couple hours later with an entirely different attitude. I don't know if she just needed time to process the info, was set straight, or saw something telling in the girls' files. She expressed that she was very upset that this kind of thing could happen to ds and that the administration is going to discuss how to address the issue. She asked for more information about the event and kids involved, and took note of the measures we are requesting to insure our son's safety. I should expect a call tomorrow, once they've had a chance to look into just what measures they can implement and how it would work to do so. She didn't sound very tech savvy (for someone working for an online school. lol) and I think the administration is going to have to have a conference with tech support before they can formulate a plan. If the plan is something like "ds should not participate in anything and just pretend nothing happened" I will go to the district. I have high hopes though. It sounds as though they want to take appropriate actions, but just need to figure out how that works in this format.


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## AAK (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> The same secretary called back a couple hours later with an entirely different attitude. I don't know if she just needed time to process the info, was set straight, or saw something telling in the girls' files. She expressed that she was very upset that this kind of thing could happen to ds and that the administration is going to discuss how to address the issue. She asked for more information about the event and kids involved, and took note of the measures we are requesting to insure our son's safety. I should expect a call tomorrow, once they've had a chance to look into just what measures they can implement and how it would work to do so. She didn't sound very tech savvy (for someone working for an online school. lol) and I think the administration is going to have to have a conference with tech support before they can formulate a plan. If the plan is something like "ds should not participate in anything and just pretend nothing happened" I will go to the district. I have high hopes though. It sounds as though they want to take appropriate actions, but just need to figure out how that works in this format.


I am glad her attitude shifted regardless of the reason. Please keep us updated with how it is handled. Thanks.

Amy


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

I just saw this post. OP- I want to send you and your family hugs. I know how difficult the coming weeks can be. Let me know if there is anything I can do via email for you guys!

I hope your kiddo's are doing ok and each day gets a little bit better!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> The same secretary called back a couple hours later with an entirely different attitude. I don't know if she just needed time to process the info, *was set straight,* or saw something telling in the girls' files.


I've been thinking about you. Our teachers and staff had a training (conducted by CPS) before school started this year on how to recognized signs of sexual abuse, what is mandated reporting, etc. The emphasis was on peer to peer sexual assault. The school secretary was one of the few people in the school who did not attend.

Please let us know how this unfolds and if you need ideas or support if you need to escalate.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

I had a call from a vice principal. They are taking this very seriously. The other victim has been having severe behavior issues and no one knew why. The time frames all match up, and bits of seemingly pointless info these kids told ds about their lives - fill in the gaps for the school administration. They don't seem to have any inclination to blame the boys, or disbelieve ds. We requested the other boy be kept away from ds, too, because his attempts to find help were seriously amplifying the trauma for ds. (remember ds is 2yrs younger than the other victim. It started at the same age, but has been going on for years now for him.) They switched all the kids schedules around so that no one (the girls or other victim) has any classes, advisers (there are group interactions in the advisory program), or homeroom teachers in common with ds. They are going to contact the parents of the other victim and let them know what's going on, and offer services to the family. From what I gather, all 3 are discipline problems that toe the line of being expelled every year (which is not easy to do in an online school). The staff is now seeing the other victim's behaviors as a cry for help though, and I could audibly hear the realization of why he does whatever he does - in her voice. The school's entire attitude and plan of action in dealing with him has had a very sharp change.

They assigned ds a male homeroom teacher and adviser because they want to make sure he feels comfortable talking to them about anything that might come up. Ds's adviser will call him within the next couple days to get to know each other (establishing trust), and is planning to check in with him monthly.

The event was organized by a parent volunteer and they have suspended their entire parent volunteer program pending review. Their thought is that if something this severe could happen, who knows what else is going on and not being reported to and/or noticed by the adults. All activities are being planned and overseen entirely by staff members until they decide what action to take, and none of the volunteers retain any kind of special privalages for now. I kind of had the impression that the volunteer program is something of a thorn in the sides of the administration, though, and this may be the last straw that gets it shut down. Only time will tell.

They don't have a blacklist feature in their system, so they can't keep these kids from using the internal email to contact ds unless they completely shut down his or their ability to communicate with anyone (even teachers). They are going to issue a warning to all 3 (the girls and other victim), and if any of them or their parents attempt any kind of contact with ds, their ability to communicate at all within the school program will be suspended for the remainder of the school year.

The vice principal expressed that she is hoping to have the girls banned from all real life events and activities, and plans to push for that action when the administration has a meeting to discuss the matter. She sees them as a threat to the general population of the school. Not everyone is back from summer vacation yet, though, so it may be into the first week of school before that comes up. In the mean time, they've given me the user IDs for all the students and parents so I can check the RSVP lists and be sure not to sign ds up for anything they are already doing.

ETA: Somewhere in this thread, someone asked why I wasn't jumping to call the cops or otherwise report this. Ds having to talk about it was a part of that, but my biggest concern was that he wouldn't be believed and when the dust settled we would be dealing with accusations of him trying to force himself on the girls. I expect that when confronted they will either claim he is making everything up, or that they weren't willing participants. With the age difference, they wouldn't be protecting themselves to say everything was 100% consensual. The law in this state is very clear that ds is incapable of giving consent to someone 16+. The vice principal really set my mind at ease as far as both concerns.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

It sounds like the school is responding as well as possible.

Thank goodness you told the school. Now the other victim will also get help, and the girls will stopped from doing this to other students, and hopefully receive help themselves. They are sexual predators -- the fact that the are female doesn't make it OK.

I'm really surprised that a school would allow parent volunteers to take kids on an overnight trip.


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## flightgoddess (Mar 4, 2009)

I WOULD go to the police! If your child was a girl and the older girls were boys, you would go to the police, yes? Why not the other way around?


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Linda, as the vice principal explained things to me - the parent volunteers are supposed to get trips approved by the school first, and are supposed to arrange for a teacher or other staff member to accompany. Basically, they do the planning and paperwork and function as moderators on the message boards where trips are discussed. Unapproved trips are not supposed to be discussed on the boards. They can say "I'm putting together a trip to such n such. Contact me off list if you want more info" but not share details about the trip or have signups within the school site. Something like half the parent volunteers in the state had to knowingly violate the terms of their position for this trip to have happened the way it did. It was all over the boards. The 3 that organized this event never even passed it by the school (the school won't approve over-night events). They didn't have staff supervision. They advertised it as a fully supervised school event. AND it's an annual thing. I've seen pics from the last 2 summers. So, they've had to work and conspire to slip this past the school administration for at least 3 years. After getting all the info, suspending the volunteer program doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

flight goddess, I made reports with cps and the police (the reports get shared, so if you do one you do the other). Neither is investigating. They both told me to try reporting it to the school. If the older girl does or says anything to my son after she turns 18, they are willing to revisit the case.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm so glad the school is taking this seriously.

I feel like, in the effort to raise strong women, some parents of girls allow, encourage, and even celebrate their daughters being aggressive. It is much more socially acceptable for girls to wear anti-boy t-shirts, for instance, "girl's rule and boys drool." I've heard women talking about how they raise their daughters to believe the future fathers of their children are not important, thinking they are teaching their daughters to be independent. This pervasive devaluing of boys in our society concerns me.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> flight goddess, I made reports with cps and the police (the reports get shared, so if you do one you do the other). Neither is investigating. They both told me to try reporting it to the school. If the older girl does or says anything to my son after she turns 18, they are willing to revisit the case.


Did they say that no crime occurred?


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

No, just that they won't be assigning anyone or investigating. The short version is that they are understaffed and there is no proof or immediate danger to my son. It isn't a priority. CPS expressed concern and said they'd let me know if a worker is assigned but not to expect it. The police acted like I was wasting their time, basically. They just kind of patiently took down info and told me to let them know if there are any developments.

I still have hopes for the school, though. Ds's adviser called today to get to know him a bit. He suggested checking in with ds every 2 weeks for now, instead of monthly. This phone call was just a get to know you. Next time, he's going to talk a bit about what happened, what can be done to make sure ds is safe, and what kind of support he may want or need.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

That's a pretty weird attitude to take. I think most people reporting crimes are no longer in danger when they make the report.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

incorrigible, I am very sorry to hear that your son was sexually assaulted. I will keep you and your family in my thoughts. It sounds like you have already gotten some support from the church in your community and that the school is working to be responsive. I wanted to mention this hotline which offers support via phone or online in case you or your DH or your DS want to talk to someone anonymously. There's a bunch of info on their website and I thought the information on male survivors of sexual assault and about how to support a loved one who has been assaulted might be of help to you during this time. Lots of support to you and your family!


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## Coco_Hikes (Nov 26, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> FWIW, I think you are doing the absolute right things.


So do I. I am so sorry this happened to your son.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for all the good thoughts and tips about resources.

The Principal called today. He wanted to let me know that they are taking things seriously and taking action. To start with, they are basically redesigning the message board system and the process for planning and discussing field trips. There will be a board for parents to plan their own activities and things, but it will be clearly labeled as "non-sanctioned". The official school activities board will be overseen by staff, and only staff will be able to plan or post new events. They are still deciding what to do about these girls attending literally every activity in our area. I don't know how they even have time for their lessons. I think the school was hoping they wouldn't really have to worry about doing anything, like maybe they wouldn't attend many events. They are like the first ones to sign up for everything. He implied they have some concerns about the girls farming victims at the activities. =/ I don't think I'll really be kept in the loop on how they handle that, though. It goes a bit out of the range of what's my business, you know? He also wanted to make sure ds was comfortable with the counselor assigned, and that I was satisfied with the counselor's plan.

I'm a bit cranky about having to deal with any of this. Ds is super angry all the time and really withdrawn. He starts with the therapist tomorrow, and it's not a moment too soon.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> I'm a bit cranky about having to deal with any of this. Ds is super angry all the time and really withdrawn. He starts with the therapist tomorrow, and it's not a moment too soon.


I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I can understand why you are cranky. I hope that therapist appoints go well.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> I'm a bit cranky about having to deal with any of this. Ds is super angry all the time and really withdrawn. He starts with the therapist tomorrow, and it's not a moment too soon.


Sending support to you and your family. I hope the therapist appointment tomorrow goes well.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I don't understand -- can a 17 year old grope a 13 year old in any state in the US and not be committing a serious crime? That's child molestation. They don't need any more "proof" than his testimony and I bet they have plenty of other proof once the subpoena text records and emails; I suspect these teens are not exactly bright criminals. I would request a meeting with the DA's office.

Those are my immediate thoughts.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> When any person is sexually assaulted, calling the police is the appropriate thing to do. The OPer's son was sexually assaulted repeatedly.
> 
> ...


This is a rational, reasonable response.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Now that I have finished the thread: you are a rock star good mom. I think you are awesome and wonderful and your kid is lucky to have you.

The little you say here makes me think the girls should be talked to. More than likely they have experienced assault. I'm not going to apologize for it right now for a variety of issues, but I was probably a similar predator. I was severely sexually assaulted from toddlerhood. I did a lot of being aggressive sexually with not quite willing people.

I'm very sorry your son was put in this position. I have tracked down as many of the people I hurt as I could. Sometimes damaged people have a hard time learning how to not hurt people. Can you push the school to put the girls in some kind of counseling? It should be part of the restorative justice process in my opinion. Otherwise they will just keep doing it.









Not that you need to be responsible. You are taking care of your son and you are wonderful for doing so. I would have given anything to be believed the way you are backing up your son.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

OP, how are you doing? I'm thinking of you, your DH, and your DS and sending support.


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## loveandgarbage (Feb 5, 2008)

Just saw this and wanted to send my support. OP you are doing everything right. I hope therapy goes well for your son and that you can all process in a healthy manner. It doesn't surprise me one bit that the cops/CPS don't seem that concerned (especially because a younger male is the victim) but am very glad the school is taking the situation as seriously as it should be.

I had the same thought as rightkindofme, re: the girls and their sexual history. I was abused by an older girl when I was a kid and she was play-acting behavior/abuse from her father and an older brother. But I agree that it's not your issue, and not your place, I just hope that these girls get help as well for their own good as well as possible future victims.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

oh grrr....I have to throw a fit tomorrow and I'm not looking forward to it. I'm not even sure what position to take yet, but I definitely have to take one. You have to rsvp for the school open house because they serve lunch and give out t shirts and things and need at least a rough idea of how many people to prepare for. So, we signed up the first day the rsvp was up. The families of both girls signed up today. I haven't heard anything from the school about actions being taken to insure student safety in any situation, yet, and have been trying to give them a little leeway since it's the first couple weeks of school. Leeway is gone. We are already having to drive 2 hours away instead of attending our local field trips so my kids aren't in any danger from these people (who ARE still attending local field trips, it turns out). On Friday, the school counselor was actually trying to talk my son into attending local events that they're at like it was just some kids he found annoying or something! I'll be on the phone with the head of counseling tomorrow. She was the one that said she would push for the girls to be suspended from in person events. It's time she start pushing, and I intended to give her whatever incentive it takes.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

For the lunch thing, or any local events, can you go along? Seems like that is the only way that your son will be able to attend for a bit and be/feel safe. I agree that the girls shouldn't be there at all, but as a short-term solution? Seems like the school should at least allow this.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> oh grrr....I have to throw a fit tomorrow and I'm not looking forward to it.










How did it go when you spoke with the school today? I am so sorry that the school hasn't done more and, in particular, the counselor isn't getting it. Your DS and many other students are lucky that you are advocating for all of the students' safety.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

ok...yesterday I got an "out of office" voice mail and left a message asking for an update. The head of counseling called me this morning and I'm only barely calm enough to write about it now. Basically, the school is taking the stance that unless I can definitively proved that Crash is telling the truth with some kind of physical evidence (like video), there's no reason to think he is. They have no intention of informing the other victim's family or the predators (even after acknowledging that they are most likely acting out because they have experienced abuse). The predators are actively attending events designed for younger students, even though they don't have younger siblings in the correct age range - and the school says they are welcome to continue. They have signed up for events we are taking Crash to, after they see we've signed up. The school suggests that if we don't want to put him at risk, we shouldn't attend any activities or events.

I told her we would be attending whatever events we felt like, including the big open house event they are certain to attend. I told her that if those girls or their families attend, I plan to call the police in the middle of the event and make sure EVERYONE there knows exactly what is going on and how the school has chosen to handle it. I also told her that if the school continues to put the student body at risk by allowing known predators to attend events, I'd go to both the school board and the press.

Honestly, I expect to have to follow through on all counts and I'm beyond PO'd! My kids are really loving and thriving in this program in ways they never have anywhere else. We could theoretically move them over to the "private school" version that's run by the company that produces it (and is only affiliated with the public school version the way two schools using the same math books are).....you know...if we had an extra $11k per year to throw down as tuition.

There are larger implications of the school's policies, too. How many other known predators of various types are being allowed to victimize the students of this school? Honestly, I don't even feel safe letting Spritely chat with the other 6th graders. If the victims are marginalized and discouraged from being active in the school....and the predators are encouraged to maximize their activity...the students seeking out friendships are more likely to be the children of predators, or have some kind of foul intentions themselves. =/

Beast left a message for the principal, too. It was later in the day, so we'll give him till tomorrow afternoon to call back and tell us they are changing their tune. Otherwise, I'm going on the warpath and making calls to anyone I think might have any obligation or interest.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Take it to the school board with the names of the people you have spoken to and the dates. Speak you piece out out loud - do not allow some one to take this to the board for you.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

*incorrigible*, it's distressing to hear that the school is not taking this seriously. Your DS and your entire community is lucky that you are not keeping quiet about this. You may want to call the local rape crisis center in your area; some rape crisis center have advocates that can assist you with reporting and other matters.

Sending support to you and your family.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Holy cow, did they manage to shock me in new and disturbing ways!The principal called dh later in the afternoon/evening. He claimed ignorance of pretty much everything, even the things he'd said to me himself. He tried to sweet talk, then strong arm dh into keeping quiet. He "threatened" to notify the victim's family and the girls' families like they promised to in our initial round of talks. I don't understand why this was a threat, but he was pissed when dh chewed him out for not having done so already...and changed his tune again. I don't think they're notifying them. =/ He basically said that he controls our kids files and it's going to look like they're both some kind of sexual deviants/aggressors if we don't just shut up and go away. It was too late for me to get ahold of anyone, but we're going to have to get ahold of the company that handles the enrollments and pull both kids out immediately. We most certainly won't be shutting up, though! I need to carve out the time this week to sit down and get all the dates and names and facts written down in an organized fashion. If some kind of miracle attitude change hasn't happened by the beginning of next week, I'll get ahold of the school board and maybe the press. I'm going to call all the kids' teachers and friends they've made, as soon as we have them unenrolled, too, and get the info moving within the school. I'm so crazy angry that the administration has taken this position. My kids are totally loving this system, and I'm furious to find this level of corruption in it.

As kizmit would have it, dh was also called by 2 (count em 2) prospective employers in the area we want to move, today. Both will pay for the certs he needs, and he's highly qualified for either. One is as a guard at the county jail, and is part of an uber long interview process...he's made it to the next round, but they will be narrowing people down until late Dec. most likely. The other was as a 911 dispatcher/part time relief fireman. The town is so small the dispatcher has to be licensed to jump in the spare truck if there is more than 1 call at a time!!! lol He has an in person interview for that tomorrow. They basically said if it goes well, he'll walk away with an offer...and suggested bringing the family to town so we can "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" and house hunt after he knows he's got it. We're doing just that.

My head is spinning. There is just too much going on at the same time!


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I really would find a different educational track for your son. And, as I assume this is not a free school to attend - I would call the BBB.


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

In my state, whether the acts were *consensual* or not, the 17 year old girl would be committing a crime. I strongly feel this boy needs to be taken seriously as having been assaulted. I can't imagine minimizing just because he felt like he went along with it. what is he going to do when he has 2 people pushing on him? I have been in those situations and it is horrifically confusing!!! No means no! I didn't read the last 2 pages of responses, I got too upset.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

OP, I've been thinking of you. How are you and your family doing?


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

We're doing well enough. Ds is still working through some things, but he seems to have himself together pretty well. He's in a different school, and dd is back to homeschooling.

The superintendent and school board both say the school isn't responsible for the students, even at fully sanctioned school events. So long as they disable the email rights of any student or parent regularly using their system to harass anyone else in their system - they've fulfilled their responsibility. End of story. Anything beyond that is the responsibility of the parent. Since parents are always able to go with on school trips (can even buy into the 12 day international trip for $5k-6k per adult), the parents are 100% responsible for anything that happens to their student - even at events that parents are highly discouraged from attending. The official stance is that the school should not get involved by notifying involved parties, taking disciplinary action of any kind, or notifying the student body that there is an ongoing issues with sexual assaults by students and of students at both sanctioned and "unsanctioned" school events. Doing so might alarm parents and cause a decrease in enrollment. The attitude is that a decrease in enrollment would be catastrophic, where sexually assaulted students is a shame and all but not that big a deal.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Did they put any of this in writing? Have you considered suing?

It's hard for me to believe the schools actions are legal.

I'm sorry for what your family, especially you son, have been through this year, and I hope things go well for both of you kids in their new educational situations.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Call the police and newspapers. The school is facilitating sexual predators and protecting them. That is disgusting and illegal.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

The police really don't care and have taken a very firm stance that there's nothing they can do because it's an administrative matter. Right now we're focusing on finding families in the school that have had similar problems, and talking to them. So far, we've found several that would talk to us but none that will admit anything happened to the police or press or to sue. Some have let the administrators convince them everything was the victim's fault. Some just want to forget it ever happened. Unless we can find other families willing to speak up, it's the word of the school, the predators and their families, the other victim and his family...against our son's word. There's no case, and no story.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

That is why sexual assault victims don't talk about their experiences. I am so angry for your son I am crying. I've had police officers tell me, "Well what else did you expect?" when someone spiked my drink and raped me. I am so sorry.

I would tell the press anyway. I would talk to reporter after reporter until I found someone who would write the story of a school that is sending predators off to prey on young children. That's disgusting. I would probably stand in front of the school with large signs.

But I have a lot of rage about no one caring about me being raped. I don't know what you should do. I am so angry for your son.

I am so fucking tired of living in a world that tells me that I have no right to believe my genitals should be safe for me. I'm so sorry.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

The other victim and his family are still in the school and denying it? How long has this kind of thing been going on? Any chance of finding someone who left the school to stand with you?


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## singin'intherain (Feb 4, 2006)

I can't believe how far reaching this is! Are the two girls the only perpetrators, or have there been others? This is a shocking case of groupthink. Please keep working on this and get this exposed. Call 60 minutes. Tell them the other families are afraid to speak up, that the police don't care.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm shocked that the girls weren't suspended or something. Wtf.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

From what I can tell, we're just a random point on a ripple effect. It sounds like the older girl was abused (don't know if it was related to the school), and when she met the younger girl she started coercing her into sexual situations and behaviors. This was over 3 years ago. The earliest victim who's family I've spoken with had this start for him about 3 years ago. In his case, it's still ongoing and the parents, administrators, etc. discipline him for lying if he ever tries to avoid the girls or say he's unwilling. (we did report this to the police and cps. They feel that it wouldn't happen if he didn't want it. >=/ ) It seems like the older girl and/or both girls were assaulting young boys at school events for at least the last 3 years. They are not the only predators though, as several of the boys they assaulted began mimicking their behaviors to even younger boys and sometimes girls. There are a couple cases that seem to trace back to an even older boy that has since graduated...and that may have caused the same kind of ripple effect. The older girl that assaulted my son may have even been one of his victims. The ages, locations, and timelines all fit for that. This may have been going on, with the administrations knowledge, for as long as 5 - 8 years. They've certainly been covering it for at least 3.

I do intend to go to the press, but I think they're more likely to care if I have something other than my son's word to give them....so, that's what I'm working on right now. The fact is that our society just doesn't care. Our cultural standard is to blame the victim for both being abused and standing up to their abusers. If I'm going to take this on, I want to go in as well armed as possible.


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## Katielady (Nov 3, 2006)

I am speechless. What a horror show. I cringe thinking of all the families who may have been affected but were afraid to come forward.

Good for you, OP, for continuing to fight this. As a mom I know how very precious one's time and energy are, and I applaud you for spending some of that energy on this important issue. Your son and your family will be the better for it, regardless of the outcome with the school.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

WOW!!! just wow!!!

all these years and so many children


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> 
> From what I can tell, we're just a random point on a ripple effect. It sounds like the older girl was abused (don't know if it was related to the school), and when she met the younger girl she started coercing her into sexual situations and behaviors. This was over 3 years ago. The earliest victim who's family I've spoken with had this start for him about 3 years ago. In his case, it's still ongoing and the parents, administrators, etc. discipline him for lying if he ever tries to avoid the girls or say he's unwilling. (we did report this to the police and cps. They feel that it wouldn't happen if he didn't want it. >=/ ) It seems like the older girl and/or both girls were assaulting young boys at school events for at least the last 3 years. They are not the only predators though, as several of the boys they assaulted began mimicking their behaviors to even younger boys and sometimes girls. There are a couple cases that seem to trace back to an even older boy that has since graduated...and that may have caused the same kind of ripple effect. The older girl that assaulted my son may have even been one of his victims. The ages, locations, and timelines all fit for that. This may have been going on, with the administrations knowledge, for as long as 5 - 8 years. They've certainly been covering it for at least 3.
> 
> I do intend to go to the press, but I think they're more likely to care if I have something other than my son's word to give them....so, that's what I'm working on right now. The fact is that our society just doesn't care. Our cultural standard is to blame the victim for both being abused and standing up to their abusers. If I'm going to take this on, I want to go in as well armed as possible.


I am so sorry that this happened to your son and if something similar happened to my child I would be through the roof angry about it, especially considering the fact that none of the authorities seems to think it warrants any kind of attention.

I absolutely don't mean to minimize what happened to your son in any way, but I have felt so uncomfortable with the word "predator" and some of the other language used about the girls throughout this thread. The tragedy here is that these kids, all of them, have been victimized. Sadly, one result of their victimization is that they are now unable or don't know how to be safe around other kids. My guess is that these girls didn't have the sort of relationship w their parents that your son did which made it possible for him to let you know and for you to go to bat for him. While I can totally understand being angry at what they did, I cannot see them as evil and terrible. They are just kids who have been victims in this themselves.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> I am so sorry that this happened to your son and if something similar happened to my child I would be through the roof angry about it, especially considering the fact that none of the authorities seems to think it warrants any kind of attention.
> I absolutely don't mean to minimize what happened to your son in any way, but I have felt so uncomfortable with the word "predator" and some of the other language used about the girls throughout this thread. The tragedy here is that these kids, all of them, have been victimized. Sadly, one result of their victimization is that they are now unable or don't know how to be safe around other kids. My guess is that these girls didn't have the sort of relationship w their parents that your son did which made it possible for him to let you know and for you to go to bat for him. While I can totally understand being angry at what they did, I cannot see them as evil and terrible. They are just kids who have been victims in this themselves.


When I was a child I was the predator. I didn't go after younger kids, I like my age or a little older. My father started raping me when I was a toddler. I started handing out neighborhood blowjobs at three.

I think people need to press this kind of situation. I was never helped. I never had anyone who was willing to make me understand how hurtful I was being. As an adult I have had contact with some of my "playmates" and I know that some of them believe I was a rapist. I should have gotten in trouble in some way. I needed it.

Ignoring these girls and letting it continue is poisonous. I don't know what to do about the fact that it is better for everyone to get caught and get some re-education. Obviously they don't understand boundaries. They really need to learn. It is bloody hard t have to go learn these lessons in the school of hard knocks. I have the scars to prove it.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> I am so sorry that this happened to your son and if something similar happened to my child I would be through the roof angry about it, especially considering the fact that none of the authorities seems to think it warrants any kind of attention.
> I absolutely don't mean to minimize what happened to your son in any way, but I have felt so uncomfortable with the word "predator" and some of the other language used about the girls throughout this thread. The tragedy here is that these kids, all of them, have been victimized. Sadly, one result of their victimization is that they are now unable or don't know how to be safe around other kids. My guess is that these girls didn't have the sort of relationship w their parents that your son did which made it possible for him to let you know and for you to go to bat for him. While I can totally understand being angry at what they did, I cannot see them as evil and terrible. They are just kids who have been victims in this themselves.


They ARE predators. They also are victims, but that doesn't make them any less sexual predators. I was sexually abused for a long time as a child, and I never sexually assaulted or abused anyone else. They do *not* have to respond in the way they are. That doesn't mean there's no room for compassion or rehabilitation for them, but we NEED to call them what they are so that people can see the truth. The Sandusky scandal had, I hoped, opened some people's eyes to just how much people who think they're good and moral enable sexual abuse, and a lot of that is because people are loathe to call sexual abusers what they are because it is so distasteful. I think this case has the added effect of female perpetrators - male victims. If a girl were to be coerced into performing oral sex on an older teen, no one would say "well, they're just kids who have been victims." We would say "no, that is not acceptable. What they did is sexual assault." These girls are sexual predators any way you slice it. They seek out younger, timid boys who are unlikely to be able to fight back much. That's what predators do. They target their victims; they're not chosen at random.

OP, I feel enraged for your son! His story mimics what I'm sure many of us who've been the victims of sexual assault feel. People in charge often don't care, and that certainly includes police. The response we got from our police chief was "but I've known him and his family for years. They'll always help people out." Yes, but they'll also rape them. One doesn't preclude the other, but most people are conditioned by the idea of the creepy child molester and cannot see that complexity. Besides the press, I would consider going to a local rape crisis center. They may be able to provide other assistance and connect you with the right people. I also agree with a pp that trying to find other families who left because of the abuse could be useful - but tough.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> Ignoring these girls and letting it continue is poisonous. I don't know what to do about the fact that it is better for everyone to get caught and get some re-education. Obviously they don't understand boundaries. They really need to learn. It is bloody hard t have to go learn these lessons in the school of hard knocks. I have the scars to prove it.


I absolutely agree with this and I think it is criminal that the school has knowingly let things snowball the way they have. I by no means think the girls should be allowed to continue the way they are. But I cannot imagine someone referring to a little three year old you as a predator. Rather than punish and vilify that three year old, I think we should be finding ways to support and nurture and fix her. It sounds to me like you've pretty much done that all by yourself and, while it's laudable that you've done it, it's horrifying to me that this is how we treat kids in our society. I am not arguing that your little three year old self and these girls don't fit the technical definition of predator, I just think it is shameful that our impulse is to vilify them rather than ask what they need to be fixed and whole and healthy and to not hurt others. The not hurt others part is hugely important to me. Not calling them predators, to me, is not the same thing as saying it's okay for them to victimize other people.

I don't think it's the genders of the participants that is making me feel this way. There was another thread here recently about a ten year old boy exposing himself and I was equally horrified by similar language used about him.

When I first read the replies to my post, I thought, I shouldn't respond because I haven't had the experience of being victimized like these other posters and I should respect their positions (I do btw, respect your positions, even where I don't hold the same ones myself). And then I remember that I had been raped. Duh. And I think my situation actually had a lot in common with what happened to OP's son, though I was a little older and there was actual intercourse involved. But I actually think the person who did it probably had a very similar attitude to the girls. I really do think that he didn't "mean any harm" and didn't think he was hurting me. He was very freaked out to realize that I didn't like it once he got it in, not so much that he stopped, but still. He was surprised that I didn't want to "go out with him again" (we weren't on a date). I was and am angry that it happened and angry that he did it. Mostly I was scared that he'd come back (and he did, breaking into my apartment and leaving me notes when I wasn't there). But I always had room in my thinking about him to see his humanity, even on the day it happened. I would never refer to him as a predator even though I feel that what he did was profoundly wrong and I'm sure that he fits the technical definition. I would much rather see him taken care of and fixed than punished, though the bottom line is that he should be stopped. I would not expect anyone else to refrain from calling an adult rapist a predator, but I do feel sad and uncomfortable about these children, even though what they did was also profoundly wrong, being called predators. And rightkindofme, you can call yourself a predator all day long, but I am not going to think of you that way.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Good for you for not just walking away and leaving this situation! It is really hard to stand up for what is right sometimes and its terrific that you are trying to protect others as well as your son! YOU GO GIRL!!!


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## Ragana (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incorrigible*
> The superintendent and school board both say the school isn't responsible for the students, even at fully sanctioned school events.


Wow, that sounds like total BS.

I have been following your story, and I'm so sorry you are going through this. Stay strong.


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

*incorrigible*, how are you and your family doing? I think of you often.


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

Earlier today I would have said we were doing great. I just finished a huge blow out fight, followed by a big huggy cry fest with Crash, though. *sigh* Things aren't horrible, but they're still harder than they should be, you know?


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## HappyHappyMommy (Mar 9, 2009)

Sending support your way!


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## incorrigible (Jun 3, 2007)

thanks


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