# Neglect??



## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

I have a huge issue weighing on my mind, and I don't know what to do about it.

My BIL was reported to CPS about 1.5 years ago for neglect. My MIL reported him because of several things. For starters, 3 of his 5 children needed medical care that BIL refused to provide for them. One child had chronic UTIs and constantly wet her pants, at least one child had pin worms, and the 2 boys are borderline autisic and need therapy. Oh, and the oldest needed glasses terribly. All of these things my MIL pointed out to them numerous times, and BIL just turned a blind eye to it all.

To top all of that off, their living conditions were deplorable. Filth, and trash several inches deep.

The final straw was when the children started claiming that their mother was hitting them. They had burises etc. MIL reported, and the children were removed from their home and placed in MIL's care for about 2 months. The children's medical issues were taken care of, BIL cleaned up the house, got therapy, and the kids were returned to him. Now, MIL is totally cut out of their lives and she sees the kids maybe 3 times a year....she knew that would happen, but she was very concerned for the kids.

Now its 1.5 years later. BIL went out of town for the week, and asked dh to feed his dog and the fish while they are gone. Dh suggested that maybe we could be nice for them and tidy up and do the laundry....BIL's wife is expecting their 6th child in a few months too, so I thought she might appreciate it.

I went in to access the situation and see if I might need to bring some laundery det. What I saw made me want to throw up. The whole house smelled like urine. The kids didn't even have sheets or covers on their beds. The entire upstairs (where the kids rooms are) was covered in several inches of garbage....seriously, it was all garbage....food wrappers and garbage. You couldn't even walk into the bathrooms because of the garbage, and there was feces smeared on the walls and the door frame. It was just totally indescribable. I was horrified. This wasn't just messy.....my ANIMALS live better than these kids do. If my animals were living in these conditions, Animal Rescue would come and take them from me ane I would be on the 10:00 news.

The thing that scared me the most is the thought that they are bringing another baby into that mess. I don't know how a toddler that picks things up and puts them in its mouth is going to survive in that house.







Their youngest is 5 right now, and the oldest is 14. All of them are left alone for several hours until the parents get home. I don't know what they are going to do with the baby.

This wasn't just messy and cluttered, so don't jump on me. I am not bothered by people's messy and cluttered houses. This was UNSANITARY plain and simple....this is how disease gets spread. This was neglectful....no doubt about it.

I just don't know what to do. I feel like I should DO something. I want to go and clean it all up for them, but I know it won't make them change. I don't want them to have to deal with CPS again. I just want them to see that this just isn't right to let kids live like that, but I don't know how to teach them that. They are not stupid people. His wife is a nurse, and he does some pretty technical stuff....they live in a $150,000+ house. I just don't get it. I feel like I should just forget it and let them live the way they want to, but the momma in me says that its not right for _kids_ to live in a situation like that. What should I do?


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Is it possible that they are overwhelmed? Can your dh talk to his brother, man to man? Maybe saying if they don't pull it together he will have to do something about it? I would hate to call CPS on a family member but kids don't deserve to live in filth.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

I'm usually a mind your own business type person, but if I knew children were living in this kind of situation-

Quote:

The whole house smelled like urine. The kids didn't even have sheets or covers on their beds. The entire upstairs (where the kids rooms are) was covered in several inches of garbage....seriously, it was all garbage....food wrappers and garbage. You couldn't even walk into the bathrooms because of the garbage, *and there was feces smeared on the walls and the door frame.*
I'd call CPS in a heartbeat. They should know better since they have already had CPS called on them once for their history of neglect.

I'm not the best housekeep in the world. You can visit my house on a day that I've cleaned and there will still be some clutter, but what you described above is foul and is no way for kids to live, especially a baby!!!


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## LongLiveLife (Nov 5, 2004)

People who live like this have a mental disorder, and I don't mean that as a figure of speach. People who cannot throw anything away, who are content to live in filth and just don't SEE what it looks like to other people have a mental disorder. Your BIL thought nothing of having you over to the house to witness this horror, so obviously he doesn't understand how vile and detrimental it is. I would not bother with the whole heart-to-heart thing. Honestly, that sounds like a joke to me. If there was any understanding on his part, if he was even capable of understanding, it never would have gotten to that point in he first place. Pointing it out to him would be like pointing out to somebody that their foot is rotting off; if they don't see it on their own it's because something is so screwed up in them that you're not _ever_ going to make them "get it". A guy like that is going to need to be forced into compliance. Call CPS.


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

I agree with LongLiveLife, I think they aren't likely to change and probably don't understand that their filth is abnormal. Especially since BIL allowed you into his home. I'd call CPS and hope for the best.


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## AmyAngel (Dec 3, 2004)

Yikes.

I would have a really hard time calling CPS on a family member, but I think this definitely warrants it. I personally would give the home a good walk-through with a video camera documenting the filth, especially if you decide to do the heart-to-heart route first. I'd probably anonymously call and ask what you should do - I would want to clean the house for them but I'd ask the CPS people and document the situation first.

I'm a really bad housekeeper, but clutter is different than garbage. I'm just not bothered by a little dirt or clutter - I DON'T always see it unless it's pointed out to me - but FILTH is entirely different and nobody should have to live in that.

Maybe some basic life skills and parenting classes are in order for them? Though I would think a nurse would understand about basic cleanliness.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

wow. that makes my stomach churn.
your heart must have stopped...

i would DEFINITELY call CPS.
in a heartbeat.
no child deserves to live in those conditions...


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## poppyqwn (Jan 5, 2005)

I think you should call. Really momma. You can do it anonamsly if you don't want you name invovled. Just think about how much worse it will get with a new baby there. If they have already gone through the CPS ordel before and haven't changed, then they really need to be made aware that it isn't a minor incovience, it is a HUGE deal. If it were me, I would get the kids safe first then worry about the backlash. Would MIL be willing to take them again if she needed to? I think she may be a big supporter of you helping them. Stay strong. I think your first instincts are correct.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Call NOW! Any child deserves better than that!


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I totally agree with LongLive. This sounds a lot like how my OWN brother and SIL live. My SIL is an alcoholic. They have had CPS called on them several times. By teachers, neighbors, and even me. We have tried everything with my brother. Trying to help him, yelled at him, etc. It's obvious what's wrong with my SIL but I think my brother is just so depressed from it all that he has given up. Is this a possibility with your BIL? Hugs to your family.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

I'd definately call as well. That goes so far beyond just being messy. I'm surprised the children aren't ill now living like that. I think this goes way beyond letting them live as they like. There is obviously something wrong with the parents that they'd live like that. Please call.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Oh, I am so sorry.

Another vote, though, for call CPS. Do not pass go. Do not have a heart-to-heart. Call CPS and get them HELP before they have another baby in that mess.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

I was really hoping that you guys would come up with something I hadn't thought of.









I am afraid that all of you are right. I do think that there is some mental illness involved here. Their boys definately have some issues, and SIL's dad has aspergers(sp?). SIL seems to have things pulled together though...from the outside anyway. She seems very normal if you were to meet her on the street. BIL is just plain lazy I think.....there are WAY too many hours spent playing the PS2 at that house.

I will let dh read your responses and ask him what he thinks. I think that an anonymous phone call to CPS might be warranted. They would probably stop by just to check up on them since they have had issues in the past.

I called and spoke with MIL and she reminded me that she didn't even report them....the school did. CPS contacted her, and all she told them was to talk to the kids. Its not like MIL was out to get them or something....which is what BIL makes it out to be.

I do think that the WHOLE family needs therapy....kids AND parents. The parents definately need parenting classes.

I just worry that the only thing that will make them see the light is the death of one of their children due to their neglect.

Keep the replies coming. I want more input on this.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I just read a website about squalor:

definitions:
http://www.squalorsurvivors.com/squalor/index.shtml

causes:
http://www.squalorsurvivors.com/squalor/causes.shtml

It sounds like this is pretty extreme, and like your ILs need to get professional help.

I guess yeah, call CPS.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Thanks for the link. I think that from reading that they are probably at about stage 3....except that stage 4 is having human urine and feces present. The garbage wasn't piled quite as high as it was in the pictures that were posted on that site, but it was a pile none the less....there wasn't even a path through it. The only other thing that was different was that they seem to have no problem inviting people into their home. They don't entertain, but if you show up they let you in.

The link did say that cleaning the mess for them will not solve the problem.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Oh, someone asked if it is possible that they are overwhelmed.

I would say that it is possible, but I don't think that it is the cause of their problem. They have lived like this ever since they were married, and it has progressively gotten worse as the kids came along. They just don't pick up after them, and they don't teach the kids to pick up after themselves. They just neglect to do anything at all....to the point that the kids govern themselves. I think that it has gotten worse in the last several years that they have lived in their new house. Its 5 bedrooms. All of the kids bedrooms are upstairs and the master is downstairs. The kids are sent upstairs and left to destroy it. I don't know if the parents even go up there. The living room and main living area was kinda OK....less garbage, but still filthy. I don't know what the parents room looked like it was locked with a key so no one could go in there.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

That sounds just foul. I grew up in squalor and no child should have to do that. Another vote to call CPS.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

IMO calling CPS isn't going to help them either. If anything it would only cause more stress. Living that way *is* stressful to them, and I suspect that they just got used to it after awhile.

I am always in favor of talking to them first. Let them know that people are concerned. Tell them that CPS is in danger of being called. Give them a chance to act first. Its possible that after living that way they just don't see it themselves.

As a child I grew up in a house like that. We had no running water, no electricity, and no indoor plumbing. If anyone would have called CPS on us and gotten me removed from the home, I would have been crushed because I had a wonderful childhood and grew up happy and secure. Just because things look bad doesn't always mean they *are* bad. KWIM? Sure, cleaning up would be the first thing they should do... but calling in CPS that will always result in the possibility of removing the child, is very very harsh. No one deserves that, especially not just for a dirty house.

Extend yourself, not in cleaning for them.. but in talking with them. Stressing the importance of the situation.

Anyway, just my 2 cent.


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

I'm right there with you.







My parents have some close friends who live like this. Worse really cause neither of them work. We just figure they live off handouts and whatever they can collect from the government. Both the parents have major psych issues to boot.

They have a little girl who I think is about 4?? She's so sad. Always dressed in rags, filthy dirty, my parents have never even heard her talk. I'm really tempted to call CPS myself. My parents will never do it and it breaks my heart to think of that little girl being raised in that filth by those two nut jobs.







:

Anyway, you're not alone in comtemplating this. I can't even imagine how hard it is to make this decision about a family member. I'm struggling a lot with it and they're just friends of my parents.










Holly


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Ugh! I don't know what to do.

I called CPS just to ask questions. I did not leave my name and number. I didn't give their name out either.

I described the situation, and they strongly urged me to go ahead and file a report, but I didn't. They said that what I described warranted follow-up.

I just don't want to be in the middle of it. I want to help. I want them to fix this. I don't want their kids to be removed from them.







This is agonizing.


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## poppyqwn (Jan 5, 2005)

Well if you do file a report, they will get help. Please remember that. Services will be provided, they will probably be sent to parenting classes. It takes alot more than that to terminate their rights or anything.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Greetings,
Calling CPS on anyone is a hard thing to do. When it comes to family it is a heart wrenching decision. The thing to keep in mind and determine is.. WOULD YOU ALLOW YOUR KIDS TO LIVE LIKE THAT? If it was NOT family member would you think twice to call on them? Did the parents learn anything from the situation with CPS in the past? Was the 'way of living' questioned in the past by CPS? Would the parents be willing to seek professional help on their own? Could you offer to help them by taking their kids for a few days/week so they can clean up their house and get some prof help? Never mind the fact that the parents may or may not have mental disorders.. WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THESE KIDS, you learn what you live and you live what you learn!
I am sadened to hear this is happenig to any family, and especially sorry it is a situation that is happening in YOUR family!!!
BEST OF LUCK to you and to them!


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## *Milk-Fairy* (Jun 8, 2004)

I would not hesitate to call CPS


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

I just don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to cause problems for them.

I know that if I say something to them they will only further isolate themselves from the rest of the family. I know that they will find out that I did it even if I do it anonymously (who else has been in their house to see all of that?) The parents were very depressed after what happened last time. I don't think that being depressed is going to help them overcome the mess that they are in. I don't think that they will let me help them though. Sadly, I think that the only way for them to get help is for CPS to get involved.

I don't think that the environment was the main concern last time....I think that it was mostly physical abuse issues. Which they wern't found guilty of, but I don't know if it really happened or not. My MIL said that the kids all had the same story even though they were questioned separately.....BIL says that their stories all conflicted. I don't know the truth.

I do know that while the kids were out of their custody they did clean up the house and paint the kids rooms.

My biggest fear is where the kids might go if they are removed. I don't have the room for them. I know that they won't let MIL take them. And SIL's mom is married to a man that molested the girls several years ago. Sadly, I really think that SIL would let her mom take the kids. (I would protest that very loudly if it were to happen!!) The only other option I think they have would be for the kids to go into foster homes. I don't want to do that to the kids.

I just wish that there was some other way.









I am going to talk with dh tonight and decide on what to do.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Can you get a friend of yours to call CPS? Distance it a little from youself, so they wont find out it's you and cut ties? Something has to be done... too bad we dont have a more reliable system for dealing with this, where you could trust kids would be well treated in foster homes.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

partyofsix, CPS (at least up here) generally tries to place kids with family before foster parents, so when you report them, chances are good that your MIL (if willing) would get them back. Please report them.

janerose, please call too. That poor little girl is suffering.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I think you did the right thing by phoning CPS and asking questions first.

Is your SIL a mandated reporter in her job? That's weirding me out, that a nurse (is she an RN?) has a house like that. It really sounds like the parents need serious help, is there a non-profit parenting organization in your area that you can contact and find out what they can do?


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

I hope this doesn't come off as heartless, because really, it is the opposite -- but your BIL and SIL just don't count here as much as the kids do. They will without a doubt be devastated by whomever confronts them on this -- you, CPS, a child's teacher, the police, etc. It seems to me that this devastation they will feel is just not as important as the health and well-being of the children in their care. You are very right to worry about the baby who is coming. You are right to worry about where the children are sleeping. Clutter is unfortunate, but filth is unnecessary.

An option, if you are worried about the finality of a CPS intervention (for the kids or for your relationship with the family), is to see if you can get in touch with the school where the children are students. Explain it to the guidance counselor there -- that these are parents who love their children but seem to really need help with their physical environment. Maybe the school can send someone there. Maybe they can give them an ultimatum -- clean up the DIRT and nastiness from the childrens' sleeping area or CPS will be called to assess the situation.

And I guess there's one other, sort of sneaky, way to go about it. If it's possible, as you have mused, that the parents don't go upstairs often, maybe you could talk to your BIL or SIL and say something like, "I was upstairs when I was over at the house the other day, and I was really freaked out by all the garbage. It looks like one of the kids smeared some poop on the wall, and there's a lot of food wrapper type stuff up there. It's like the kids were on a rampage. I know I can't stand to go up to my kids' rooms sometimes -- so maybe you haven't been up there in a while. I thought you might want to know, because the kids may never tell you. Do you want me to come over some time and help the kids get their space cleaned up? We can make a game of it -- and it will help them all get ready for the baby, too."

Remember that these kids cannot solve the problem themselves. If no one does anything, this is how they will live. They will likely get sick. They may be itchy from the dirt they live in. Are their bodies clean? They're sleeping on beds with no bedding -- are they warm enough at night? How on earth did the feces get on the door and walls? I am not trying to be crude, but worrying about the parents' feelings should, to me, be an afterthought.

If you don't want to be the bad guy, that's one way of accomplishing it -- and also teaching the kids what's right. Truly, I feel for you -- and for the parents -- but mostly, I feel for those kids. They deserve the most sympathy of everyone.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I'd take pics, then call CPS and provide the pics.

Those parents had neglected health issues in their children previously, which seems to be a part of this parcel and if they are this neglectful of the children's living conditions, makes me wonder how much they take care of their health as well. (reccuing uti's with the girl wetting herself frequently, that's screwed up man.)

I don't think saying anything to them will accomplish anything but them excluding you from their lives like they did MIL, which does nothing for the kids if no one is allowed in their home to see how they are living. (as you already said)

What concerns me, more than them living in filth, is neglecty of health issues. I also wonder if these kids have any friends at school or if they are mocked for being stinky


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## peaceful herbivore (Mar 17, 2005)

I am absolutely appauled that you haven't called CPS already. I would have called on my own mother if the conditions are how you say they are. Seriously, no one deserves to live like that, no one.

I think we are all pretty reasonable people. No one is suggesting a call to CPS is warranted for dishes in the sink, or a bit of grime in the corners of the kitchen, or cat hair and lint on the carpet, clothing strewn on a bedroom floor, or even the closet no one ventures into for fear of mutations growing inside...lol...
Seriously, we are talking FECES ON THE WALLS....GARBAGE PILED....SMELL OF URINE....the children sleeping on bare mattresses...cmon, thift store sheets are like $.50....besides, you say they live in an expensive home so poverty obviously isn't their problem.

The conditions you described were utterly and absolutely disgusting and the parents have a serious mental disorder. Honestly, the children SHOULD NOT be in that situation, and I would take whatever measure I could to have them removed immediately.

That is terrible, and I really don't mean to be insulting but the last thing that needs to be worried about right now is anyone looking like "the bad guy". These children need to come first.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the conditions you described sound deplorable!!!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*

My biggest fear is where the kids might go if they are removed. I don't have the room for them. I know that they won't let MIL take them. And *SIL's mom is married to a man that molested the girls several years ago*. Sadly, I really think that SIL would let her mom take the kids. (I would protest that very loudly if it were to happen!!) The only other option I think they have would be for the kids to go into foster homes. I don't want to do that to the kids.

I just wish that there was some other way.









I am going to talk with dh tonight and decide on what to do.

So freaking sad, what these kids have been through..I am in tears over here.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

I would have to say the same as most of the posters here, too.
But what concerns me most is not the condition of the home (although that is absolutely beyond "overwhelmed" as someone suggested) but the MEDICAL care of the children.
My biggest fear is the health of the unborn baby--doG forbid something happen with that new baby should medical care be necessary if they can't bother to get glasses for their son.

The other thing that really should be of concern is the health of the little girl.
UTIs can be really REALLY serious, should they go unchecked. This happened to me and it can lead to kidney and liver damage--that's not something that you want to mess with.

Talk it over with your DH. But don't delay in getting some help for these children...they really need it based on what you've said.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm going to ditto all the pp's. That is unacceptable and the children shouldn't have to live like that.

When you call CPS, you need to tell them about SIL's mother's husband being an abuser- even if you have no proof, if it is reported, then they will not place the children there. When you said they wouldn't put the kids w/MIL, do you mean CPS or the parents? If it was between MIL and fostercare, hopefully they will choose MIL.

CPS will try to place the kids with a relative first, if they do remove the kids. It is possible that they will let the kids stay if the parents agree to services. Really, they do try to avoid breaking up families unnecessarily.

Kristi


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

coming from someone (me) who was unjustly removed from my mother's care briefly for housekeeping issues - i would call in a heart beat. If you don't want to report it, call their school and tell them what you know. They are mandatory reporters and will have to do it. YOur BIL and SIL will not get a choice in who takes the children, unless it they are protesting who they go to based on the fact that they aren't being cared for properly or they think they are being pu in danger by their placement. You need to do this, and you need to do it now. Don't delay - it isn't fair to those kids.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

I guess the reason that I am having a hard time actually making the call is because I know what it did to them last time. It tore them apart, and I still don't think that they have fully recovered from it. I just don't wan to do that to them if there is some other way that I can get through to them.

Dh and I discussed it last night, and we decided that when they get back we will sit them down and explain our concerns with them. We will tell them what we saw, and that we are afraid that if CPS stops in for a visit that they might take the kids because of the condition of the house.

Dh and I are going to ask them to let us help them get things back under control. We are going to go over there and help them and the kids to do a major clean up, and hopefully paint to. I don't mind going back when things get out of control again, but hopefully we can teach them some parenting skills that will help them get the kids under control and get the kids picking up their own messes.

If all of that fails, and they refuse help, I will turn them in. I am going to take pictures to document what I have seen, so that if I have to make a report, I have evidence to back it up. I am hopeful that BIL and SIL will see that it is not acceptable to let the kids live in conditions like that. I hope that it doesn't come to that, but I will do it if I absolutely have to.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Send me lots of strong stomach vibes as I prepare to go over there and clean that place up!


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## JillChristina (May 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
I just don't want to be in the middle of it. I want to help. I want them to fix this. I don't want their kids to be removed from them.







This is agonizing.









I'm sorry you're in this position. Doing the RIGHT thing isn't always the EASY thing to do.

You mentioned before that if your animals were living like this, they would be removed from your home. These are CHILDREN living like this. They need help. I hope you find a way to voice your warranted concerns for these precious children to the right people.

Good luck!

Jill


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
I'm usually a mind your own business type person, but if I knew children were living in this kind of situation-

I'd call CPS in a heartbeat. They should know better since they have already had CPS called on them once for their history of neglect.

I'm not the best housekeep in the world. You can visit my house on a day that I've cleaned and there will still be some clutter, but what you described above is foul and is no way for kids to live, especially a baby!!!











I really have to agree with this! No child should live this way.


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## katsam (Mar 3, 2005)

I would call CPS too. I would hate to do it though. You don't have to leave your name if you don't want too. CPS will not terminate rights unless the parents do not make any effort to change. They do have a history though, so it could be different, but they will be given a chance. They will be asked to work a treatment plan that will probably consist of parenting classes, counseling, etc. I agree that it is a mental disorder. If you do call CPS and the children were removed, is there family who would take the kids in if they were approved? I would let CPS know of any family that could be contacted for kinship foster care if necissary. That would be the least stressful situation for the children. You do have to think of the children. The hardest part is that the children will probably want to stay with their family. It is their family after all, and all that they know. The best think would be if the family could get services with the kids still in the home, which is possible. It does take a lot to get children removed. Honestly thought the situation you described sounds pretty bad. This is a tough decision to make, just remember to put the kids and their safty first and you will have nothing to feel guilty about. You did not cause this problem.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I think your idea sounds like a great one. You just never know what CPS will do, and I think you're right that it could be very traumatic for the children to be pulled out. I don't think many people realize how harmful and disruptive it is to children and to their development to be placed in the foster system, NO MATTER HOW BAD THE CONDITIONS. And since these kids aren't starving, they're not being abused, and they're not in danger, I really think you're making a great decision. Anything you can do to help will be more helpful than what strangers burdened with huge caseloads and bureaucratic requirements can do. You're a very caring person, they're lucky to have you!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

First of all, hugs - it's clear how much this is tormenting you and it must be so, so hard.

Re this

Quote:

I just don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to cause problems for them.
...I'm scratching my head over here...unfortunately, I think that by NOT calling you are being "the bad guy"..my first protective instincts would be toward the children, who can't protect themselves, not the adults who are making the decisions and creating the situations in which the children are forced to live. I know we have a lot of CPS skepticism and antagonism here, but I worked as an attorney for CPS for over two years, handling the cases where the decision was made to remove the children (my job was to prove the parents unfit or establish abuse/neglect.) It's not just like you call and a social worker shows up and spirits the children away on a whim - removal is only done as a last resort and where the necessity can be demonstrated in court and findings made by a judge...it's not a unilateral decision by the social worker. If it does get to that stage, the parents and the children all have attorneys representing their interests in court.

As a PP said, the right thing to do is often NOT the easy thing - I'd stop worrying about rocking the boat and make the call to protect the kids..please!!

It sounds like if they've had CPS involvement before and are still living this way, hoping they'll fix things is unfortunately unrealistic....`


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
Dh and I discussed it last night, and we decided that when they get back we will sit them down and explain our concerns with them. We will tell them what we saw, and that we are afraid that if CPS stops in for a visit that they might take the kids because of the condition of the house.

Dh and I are going to ask them to let us help them get things back under control. We are going to go over there and help them and the kids to do a major clean up, and hopefully paint to. I don't mind going back when things get out of control again, but hopefully we can teach them some parenting skills that will help them get the kids under control and get the kids picking up their own messes.

I just wanted to say that I think you are doing the right thing. The effects of a CPS investigation and involvement can be devestating to the whole family. Talking to them and trying to help them yourself while stressing how important it is for change to happen, is far better than just blowing the whistle IMO.

I hope that they will listen to your husband and you, and will realize that people are concerned with them and their children.

In the end, no matter what happens they will eventually come to realize that you did it because you loved them and cared, not be me malicious and hateful.
Good luck!


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I am almost never in favor of involving CPS.

In this case, you need to apply the golden rule. If you were so mentally ill that you were allowing your sweet babies to live like this, what would you want the people around you to do about it?

Sane-me would want my children out of the situation for the time it took me to get it together. You are obviously going to protect the parents' interest here. I think it is just fine for you to call CPS, to motivate them to gets your in-laws to get the mental health services they need, because no one is filled with animosity here and no one wants to take the children away.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

I guess the reason that I am having a hard time actually making the call is because I know what it did to them last time. It tore them apart, and I still don't think that they have fully recovered from it. I just don't wan to do that to them if there is some other way that I can get through to them.
If having the children removed from their care already wasn't enough of a wake-up call, then what will be???

Obviously, they weren't torn up enough to make some real changes or get some help or do anything else that would put these children's well being as a priority.

I would call CPS in a New York minute and I would be totally upfront with them that I did it and why. It would not be vindictive and it would not be punitive, it would be done based on the *obvious* lack of concern for the well being of their children.

Step one: Free the hostages.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

*bump*

party_of_six, how's it going?????


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
I just don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to cause problems for them.


I haven't read the entire thread, but I just want to say:

1) Calling CPS out of a desire to help children never makes anyone the bad guy.

2) You are not creating problems for them. They have created problems for themselves.

These children need help. They can't do it for themselves. They need an adult to help them.

Namaste!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

The thing that worries me, as PP have said, is that it's not just a matter of having a really messy house, it's the medical neglect of the children, and the failure of the parents to provide for their basic needs. I think their messy house is symptomatic of a deeper problem. I mean, you could always hire a housekeeping service for them, but a clean house is not going to get their DS glasses or cure their DD's UTI.

The only way I would not call CPS would be if they agreed to get counseling, and then did it. Then I would wait and see. If conditions did not improve, I would still call CPS. Like I said, there's clearly more going on here than just bad housekeeping.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Well, dh kinda talked with them, but not as seriously as I would have liked him to. They just got back today, so maybe he will sit down and have a more serious conversation soon. BIL said that he did want to get things cleaned up because he wants to sell his house. I will give it a little more time.

I understand everyone's concern. Trust me, I am concerned. The medical issues have been taken care of, as well as the previous issues. All of that was resolved the last time they were investigated by CPS, and the kids were removed from the home for about 2 months. The kids are well fed, and they have clothes and things like that. The cleanliness of the home is the main issue that I have, and I worry that it might just be a symptom of a bigger problem.

I am waiting a little longer though to give BIL time to act on it. Dh volunteered our help, and we will see if he lets us help out. I urged dh to talk with him more seriuosly, and if he doesn't take the warning seriously then I won't hestitate to call.

The thing that bothers me about calling CPS is that I KNOW he will know who did it...even if I do it anonymously. We are the only family members that he has regular contact with. If we call on him, then I KNOW that he will cut off contact with us as well. I do not feel confident that CPS will investigate and follow up appropriately, and the children will eventually fall back into this all over again. As long as we stay close with them we can monitor the children and provide assistance as they need it.


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## Sagesgirl (Nov 22, 2001)

I appreciate that you don't want them to have to deal with CPS again. What I fail to understand is why you want the kids to continue living like that. Because that is what _will_ happen. Calling CPS will probably result in the kids getting taken away again. Sad for your BIL & his wife, but very much better for the kids. I lived like that growing up, & God I wish someone had reported my mother!


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sagesgirl*
I appreciate that you don't want them to have to deal with CPS again. *What I fail to understand is why you want the kids to continue living like that.* Because that is what _will_ happen. Calling CPS will probably result in the kids getting taken away again. Sad for your BIL & his wife, but very much better for the kids. I lived like that growing up, & God I wish someone had reported my mother!

I don't want the kids living like that....which is why I am trying to help them see that its wrong and help them fix it. If that doesn't work I WILL call CPS.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sagesgirl*
I appreciate that you don't want them to have to deal with CPS again. What I fail to understand is why you want the kids to continue living like that. Because that is what _will_ happen. Calling CPS will probably result in the kids getting taken away again. Sad for your BIL & his wife, but very much better for the kids. I lived like that growing up, & God I wish someone had reported my mother!

Just remember that it can go either way. I lived like that growing up as well, but I would have been heartbroken if anyone had called on my grandmother. We had no indoor plumbing, no electricity (at all, not just diconnected) no running water. Aside from a horrible house, we were fine. I was well taken care of and loved, even in those conditions. No foster home could have been better than were I was regardless of how nice their home looked. I will not hesitate to say that I was NOT neglected or abused in ANY way just because of the home I lived in. I was very happy. And I lived there all my life, thank goodness! No one bothered to become "concerned" and call CPS and I'm very grateful for that.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

I hear ya, witchymama2, but did your house also have feces on the walls? That's beyond just not having a decent house, and a big health risk for the kids. And did your grandma fail to meet your medical needs? I think those are the issues people are most worried about. You were well taken care of and loved, but these kids have already been removed before because they weren't being well taken care of (a recurring UTI is awful, and no excuse when the mother is a nurse).

Given the mom is a nurse I would say there is definitely more happening here. I don't know of any nurses who would fail to get their kids medical help when needed. And she would know how damaging to one's health filth (not a dirty home but excrement on walls) is to children and especially a new born babe.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

I don't think feces were on the walls when I was growing up because I was an only child and didn't put poop on walls. LOL
But we didn't have a bathroom, so we used an outhouse. And I think that it would be hard to say our house was feces free. We lived on a farm and more then likely there was cow manure instead of human feces.

I didn't go to a doctor when I was younger, as my grandmother didn't believe in them. She used homeopathic remedies, and I was never sick very often.

By todays neglect standards, I would have been taken away in a heartbeat. I am 100% sure of that. There were plenty of things wrong with that house. But my point is, taking the kids away isn't always *better*. I know in my case it wouldn't have been.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Piles of garbage so deep that the bathrooms are inaccesible, children sleeping on bare mattresses, fecal matter on the walls, a HISTORY of medical neglect (and likely abuse), and parents who cut ties to family members who try to intervene.

OF COURSE THESE CHILDREN WOULD BE BETTER OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE!

This thread is making my stomach hurt.

Helping this family clean their house and having little talks with them is putting a band-aid on a huge, gushing wound, IMO.

How many chances do they get to mess up these kids' childhoods??


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Helping this family clean their house and having little talks with them is putting a band-aid on a huge, gushing wound, IMO.


Unfortunately, I totally agree with Monkey's Mom.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WitchyMama2*
I don't think feces were on the walls when I was growing up because I was an only child and didn't put poop on walls. LOL
But we didn't have a bathroom, so we used an outhouse. And I think that it would be hard to say our house was feces free. We lived on a farm and more then likely there was cow manure instead of human feces.

I didn't go to a doctor when I was younger, as my grandmother didn't believe in them. She used homeopathic remedies, and I was never sick very often.

By todays neglect standards, I would have been taken away in a heartbeat. I am 100% sure of that. There were plenty of things wrong with that house. But my point is, taking the kids away isn't always *better*. I know in my case it wouldn't have been.

I don't think you were living in the same situation as these children. I think there is a difference between cow manure tracked in from outside and feces smeared on the walls, a difference between living off the grid and living in squalor. there's also a difference between a child kept healthy by alternative medicine and children who are visibly ill getting no kind of medical care, as was happening with these children before the first CPS intervention.

I also don't think the OP is making an uninformed decision here. Remember that the situation the last time someone called CPS on this family was WORSE, and the net impact was a 2 month stay for the children with their grandmother. Now the parents and the grandmother aren't speaking and the children have lost a loving adult in their lives as a result. It seems like a family member deciding to call CPS about these children runs the risk that the children might be separated and put into foster care, or that they might not be removed from the parents' care but might never get to see caring relatives again.

it's a monsterous decision for someone to have to make. party_of_six, I'm so sorry you are in this situation. I hope you can make this work out for these children.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I would not be one to rush to CPS in this situation.

I was a bed wetter until I was 9-10 years of age. There was times that I know our home (my room) smelt of urine. My mom did try hard but the fact was it does happen. I also know it is worse when a room/home is closed up. My friend has MS and uses adult diapers at times her home smells of urine and feces. It is not always recognized by them, because their home always smell funny. I would hate my friend to loose her daughter because of this. Their home can get quite messy. I know the daughter struggles with wanting to leave and stay with her mom. She has ways out by her dad, grandmother, myself, and several other friends.

I have seen many kids sleep on bare mattress, floors, and couches because there is no money, room for beds. I know this a case but it is not "abuse" either. My sister was homeless and she spent time living without mattresses and then sheets. Also if they were on vacation having stripped beds could be easily argued.

I am guilty of limiting visits from relatives also because they don't agree with my home schooling, extended breastfeeding, discipline. I would sure as h*** cut them out if they had called CPS. I do think your mom was right in her doings but her actions naturally had a reaction. They fear your mom because she called once why give her a chance to call twice?

When I battled PPD my house looked almost as bad as the house you mentioned. I would have and my children would have hated being removed from it. I honestly think more damage could be done by calling CPS. You will add emotional stress on the kids and the parents. They will live more in fear of CPS. They will block you out. WHEN YOU ARE BLOCKED OUT YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO WATCH AND SEE IF THEY ARE IN SERIOUS JEPOARDY.

I would read that squalor sight and look at the whys and cures. I would share it with your sil and bil. IT IS NOT JUST ONE OF THEM! I honestly would find ways to help. Would they benefit from a cleaning chart for the kids and themselves? Would they benefit from you helping them go on a major throwing away spree? I would also get them on your side. Maybe attack it as we need to do this before mom gets involved again. This might make your sil and bil more receptive of help when they think (hopefully know) they are on your side.

On the flip side I have seen maculate homes that were more abusive. I have a niece that never smiles. My dh always joked it was because she never was allow to have more than one toy out at a time. Her and her sister both will talk about the hell it was to live with my dh sister. They were afraid to have friends over. Her cleanliness was/is OCD. I worked with a fireman that had OCD issues and cleanliness. Him and his wife finally came to the agreement he would keep the house to the standards he felt suit his needs and he could not say anything to anyone else. He would scrub bed rails. It was not until the fire department got him help did he get better. So a perfectly clean and neat home does not mean the child's emotional or social needs are being meet.

Do you have any clue how the kids are doing emotionally?


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

Do you have any clue how the kids are doing emotionally?
I was wondering that, too. (I've been following this thread since the beginning, Btw...just haven't known what to say...)
The thing that really struck me was that the kids said they were being abused.
Now, that leaves 2 possibilities open, as I see it.
1)they really were being abused (physically)
2)they were so upset by their living conditions they lied about the physical abuse, thinking the state of the house wasn't enough for CPS to step in.

I guess there's also the possibility they wanted revenge on their parents for some reason....

No matter how you look at it, though, these kids are probably not emotionally healthy.
Any kid who would report their parents to CPS is either monumentally spoiled or genuinely miserable for some legitamite reason.

Have you thought about, after the "big clean-up" reccommending a good weekly housekeeper?
It sounds like they can afford it...it might help a lot...


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

I am sory you re in this situation - sounds really tough. I think you are right to be concerned and I also think you are right to try to find a soluion that allows you to continue helping the family (and not getting cut out because they get freaked by a CPS call). Dh aunt had her kids taken away by CPS because of mental illness and, although it was the right thing to do, both kids are SO screwed up now because the 'great people' CPS found to adopt them turned out to like o have sex with kids.









So, I am relucant to think CPS is necessarily the right awnser. I think parents can often be made to do the right things for their kids and in this case, the kids seem to be doing okay and the issue seems like one that can be handled IMO. I think they need help, no doubt, but places like CPS are not nec. well suited to give tht help. What about a house cleaner as a baby gift/x-mas, etc from you guys and MIL? Perhaps having someone come regularly, even if only every few weeks just to keep things under control?

Also, you said the kids are 5-14, I think someone should talk with them. Especially the older kids. Can you get some time alone with them to casually talk about what is going on in the house and the mess, etc.?

Good luck and thank you for looking out for these children.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
I
Any kid who would report their parents to CPS is either monumentally spoiled or genuinely miserable for some legitamite reason.

Where did you read that the children had reported their parents?

It sounded like a teacher at their school saw that they were neglected and phoned CPS, and CPS phoned the MIL. (The OP corrected herself because originally she thought the MIL reported the family, but the MIL said no, the school, a mandatory reporter, had called CPS.) I didn't read anywhere that the children "reported" their parents.

Also, the reasons to report in the first case were detailed on the first page. One of the children had chronic urinary tract infections that the parents weren't treating, another needed glasses, two children had behavioral issues that looked like autism to the OP. All of these things would be observable by a teacher without a child saying anything. CPS investigated and took the children and placed them with their grandmother for two months in order to ensure that someone would provide them with healthcare. The parents cleaned their house and the children returned home.

Now the OP has found that the children are once again living in a state of squalor. Their parents are not poor. Their mom is a nurse. Something is very wrong. The OP is worried that the children are suffering from other forms of neglect (as they have in the past.) Their living situation is not just a dirty house.


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

I would call.
I did call on my best friend. She had 3 kids in 3 years and was the worst housekeeper. She never had any food the kids never had clean clothes to wear. The one child didn't have any shoes. There was feces on the walls of bathroom. THey didn't ever have toilet paper. I knew this girl since I was 7 and she was 6. We had been through alot toghter, she was at my dd birth I was at her ds birth, I love her so much. BUT I had been calling for 3 years to try to get her some help. I finally called and said who I was , what I knew, and they removed them.

If I were you I would scarafice the relationship with the bil, to save those kids!!
PS- I have never talked my best friend since, but I seen her and she looked really good, her hair was long,. she had put on some weight. I was happy to see her look good-and that was enought for me


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

Where did you read that the children had reported their parents?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OP*
The final straw was when the children started claiming that their mother was hitting them. They had burises etc.

So, who were they saying this to, and why?
If they said this to a teacher, that seems like an indirect report to CPS, at least on the part of the older child...
maybe not, though...but if I'd told a teacher when I was 14 that my mom hit me, I'd have assumed it would be reported...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I don't know if you understand that this is a mental health issue as much as a physical risk to the kids. We had neighbors that lived like this a few years ago. It was unbelievable. I looked at those pictures, and that is what it was like. Every few months the husband would have someone come and clean, usually when the wife was out of town, and it would be a matter of weeks before it was back to the way it was. Cleaning up will not do anything to help this situation until they get help, both of them. Talking to someone will not cure their mental illness.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
So, who were they saying this to, and why?
If they said this to a teacher, that seems like an indirect report to CPS, at least on the part of the older child...
maybe not, though...but if I'd told a teacher when I was 14 that my mom hit me, I'd have assumed it would be reported...

Huh, I missed that, I should have searched the page for the word hit.

I would suppose that if the parents were not allowing them to have medical care, causing them to live in a squalid environment, if the children were not healthy...that if the child said his mother was hitting him, then she was hitting him.

I mean, I grew up in a clean house with otherwise wonderful and attentive parents, and my mother hit me. In fact, I think hitting is really common, a lot more common than all of that other stuff.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Thanks for the input everyone.

Someone asked about the emotional state of the children....I would say that they are fine. They seem rather content with their living situation. They seem happy. They are so used to it I don't think that they see anything wrong. They are all well fed, and they all have clothes. They might be a little stinky on occasion, but they appear to be taken care of.

I think that the biggest reason that things have gotten out of control is because SIL and BIL have not actively guided and parented their children. They have let them fend for themselves. They feed them and clothe them, but other than that, they are free to do what they want. I think that since there are so many of them, BIL and SIL have just given up trying to be in control of what they do. When they bought the house they commented that it was great that all of the children's bedrooms were upstairs. They said that they would be giving the children free reign of the upstairs so that they could do what ever they wanted. I think that things just went downhill extremely fast after that.

I don't really think that there is physical abuse in the home. I think that the parents are frustrated, and probably spank, but but not anything that would constitute physical abuse by CPS standards.

Knowing the children, I could definately see how the children might lie about their parents hitting them. They are sneaky, and I wouldn't put it past them. BUT...knowing the frustration that the parents face, I can see where things might get out of control. That's why I said that I just don't know if there was any truth to that. I see the children fairly regularly, and I never see any bruises....and they seem happy.

If I saw something deeper than just the conditions of the house, I would have already called. The children are fed and clothed though, and they seem happy. The children have gotten the medical care they needed.

For right now, I am letting dh handle this. There are still several more months until the baby is born. They are having their first homebirth...not because they researched it and thought it was great, but because they don't have insurance. I know that they go to the midwife's office for appts. I am curious to see if a midwife will refuse to deliver them at home once she sees the house. If things aren't cleaned up by the time the baby is born, then I think CPS should step in.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Children aren't sneaky by nature. Children become sneaky as a defense mechanism against being hit, even just "spanked".

I really hope this works out for the best for those kids.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

JMO but it sounds like he needs therapy, not having his kids taken away. I agree with the PP that it is a mental illness, and it can be dealt with. Getting therapy and learning how to deal with his home is far better than their children being in the foster care system. Maybe someone could try to talk to him about it first, before reporting him to CPS?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Joining late...

I am not the best housekeeper, and don't think highly of CPS, but I'll also be one to say you should call. The top priority should be the living conditions of the children, not your relationship with your siblings.

There are several possible ways this could play out:
1. You call. CPS does nothing and the kids continue living in squalor.
2. You call. CPS intervenes; kids stay where they are and parents are given help they need.
3. You call. Kids are removed from home; go to a good foster home, possibly one where they can all be together.
4. You call. Kids go to bad foster home, or are split up.
5. You don't call. Everything turns out OK.
6. You don't call. Kids' living conditions deteriorate further and cause accidents, illness, or other problems.
7. You don't call. Someone else intervenes.
8. Your relationship with your BIL is ruined.
9. Your relationship with your BIL improves.
10. Your relationship with your BIL does not change at all.

Which of these scenarios can you absolutely not live with? Which of these do you think is most likely to happen? If you were a child growing up in this house, what would you want?

There have been a few times I've called CPS (for stuff much less serious than this). Each time, I thought I'd go talk to the mom first, and it turned out to be a mistake - she just started being more secretive about the neglect or abuse.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Children aren't sneaky by nature. Children become sneaky as a defense mechanism against being hit, even just "spanked".

I really hope this works out for the best for those kids.

Kids have innate personalities. Some are innately sneakier than others. My best friend doesn't spank and she is a wonderful AP mother. Her son does some pretty "sneaky" things (he is still a great kid).


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

What about other agencies? Isn't there anything else out there to help parents in need of parenting classes or counseling? Wouldn't that be a much better approach? To fix the parents instead of sending the kids off to some foster home? Having been a foster parent and seeing how the system works (Doesn't.), that would be a last choice for me. I'd try other stuff first, and if that didn't work, then I would have no choice to call CPS.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Kids have innate personalities. Some are innately sneakier than others. My best friend doesn't spank and she is a wonderful AP mother. Her son does some pretty "sneaky" things (he is still a great kid).

No, I agree with this. All kids do sneaky things, especially in the transition from preschool age to about five or six, maybe a little older. That's part of testing boundaries. However, have you ever been around kids who have been spanked or abused in some way? That's a completely different kind of sneaky, and that's the impression I got from her statement that these kids would lie about such a thing because they're sneaky. I think that's a different ballpark, no?


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
No, I agree with this. All kids do sneaky things, especially in the transition from preschool age to about five or six, maybe a little older. That's part of testing boundaries. However, have you ever been around kids who have been spanked or abused in some way? That's a completely different kind of sneaky, and that's the impression I got from her statement that these kids would lie about such a thing because they're sneaky. I think that's a different ballpark, no?

Yeah, it is.
These kids wanted negative attention focused on the family for _some_ reason.
I don't necessarily think the kids were being beaten, but there's something very bad, very dark going on there for the kids to make something like that up.
It really might just be the squalor...that will drive a kid insane.
Seriously...ask any member here who grew up like that. By the time a kid is 6 or 7, they see that their home is shamefully different than their friend's houses...not to mention the parental apathy.
That sucks.
I grew up like that...seasoned with various other forms of neglect and abuse, and I'm pretty sure I know why the kids were saying those things.
This is an enormous confession on my part, but when I was 11, I lied.
I told the truth at first, but no one listened.
It seemed as though no one cared unless I had bruises and scars, so I attributed accidental injuries to my parents. In my own defense, my father did throw things at me, thump me on the head daily when he was in a bad mood, and occationally chase me down and strangle me, screaming "I'm gonna kill you, you little bitch".
So I lied because I was desperate.
That said, I don't think this situation is as bad as mine was. And even if it is, I'm not sure I would have been better off in foster care, in retrospect.
I think squalor can be a vicious cycle...you're mentally ill, so you don't clean...but the filth contributes to the depression, ad infintum...
I honestly believe if we'd had a weekly cleaning service, it might have not ever gotten so bad all around.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
Yeah, it is.
These kids wanted negative attention focused on the family for _some_ reason.
I don't necessarily think the kids were being beaten, but there's something very bad, very dark going on there for the kids to make something like that up.
It really might just be the squalor...that will drive a kid insane.
Seriously...ask any member here who grew up like that. By the time a kid is 6 or 7, they see that their home is shamefully different than their friend's houses...not to mention the parental apathy.
That sucks.
I grew up like that...seasoned with various other forms of neglect and abuse, and I'm pretty sure I know why the kids were saying those things.
This is an enormous confession on my part, but when I was 11, I lied.
I told the truth at first, but no one listened.
It seemed as though no one cared unless I had bruises and scars, so I attributed accidental injuries to my parents. In my own defense, my father did throw things at me, thump me on the head daily when he was in a bad mood, and occationally chase me down and strangle me, screaming "I'm gonna kill you, you little bitch".
So I lied because I was desperate.
That said, I don't think this situation is as bad as mine was. And even if it is, I'm not sure I would have been better off in foster care, in retrospect.
I think squalor can be a vicious cycle...you're mentally ill, so you don't clean...but the filth contributes to the depression, ad infintum...
I honestly believe if we'd had a weekly cleaning service, it might have not ever gotten so bad all around.

Listen:

If your father was thumping you on the head and strangling you, and you told people that he was hitting you...you didn't lie. He was hitting you. Thumping you on the head is hitting you. Strangling you? Counts by me as physical abuse. If you had to say "I got this bruise from my dad" and really you got it when you tripped...I still don't think you lied. The essence of the thing was true.

But now I understand why you are having this issue about whether the children are telling the truth.

Can I also say, my heart is breaking for you that you are carrying around a feeling that you did something wrong about this. You didn't do anything wrong. It was really good that you figured out a way to stick up for yourself. thank God you are an adult now and safe.

I also don't think these children lied when they said that their mom hit them. Why would a child lie about that when it's so very common? Parents hit their children in anger all the time. My mom never bruised me up or anything, but she struck me hard and kicked me when she lost her temper. You don't have to break bones or raise welts for hitting to be abusive. Should CPS or teachers and other responsible adults wait to see if a child has serious injuries?

(Well, actually, they do exactly that.







)

I also don't think you should assume that the children in question are in a less bad situation than yours. Remember, CPS has already investigated the family and put the children with their grandmother for two months. So that means that CPS thought the situation was very bad. Anyway, even the OP can't completely know what is going on in the house. That's why she is in this quandary.

It really sucks that we can't just call someone in authority and count on them to do something for a child in trouble that is actually beneficial to the child. It's scary that we have to do this kind of mental gymnastics, worrying about foster care.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

They are having their first homebirth...








:


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

On any given day at least one of our bathrooms will have poop smeared on the walls.. Why?? Because ds 2 (4) has a hard time wiping is own bottom, and refuses help.. He doesn't tell me when he's pooping, and does it in the hardly ever used upstairs bathroom.. So unless it's midnight and I'm going to bed.. I don't see it.. And my mind being what it is.. I don't remember in the morning.. Also.. At 4.. He is responsible for clearing it off.. I give him the sponge.. He can do it.. And he does..

So.. Call CPS and have my kids taken from me..

Dyan


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think your situation is different and you know it, and your post was just meant to be snarky.

That said...I grew up in 4th degree squalor. Yep...human poop and pee in most rooms of the house that sat for weeks. You can bet I didn't have friends coming over. My mom would sit and whine about how we needed a housekeeper, but wouldn't just do it herself. I really doubt some minimum-wage housekeeper is going to clean poop that has been in a closet for a week.

My mother was mentally ill and needed a whole team of caseworkers, but no one wanted to call and be the "bad guy."


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

That said...I grew up in 4th degree squalor. Yep...human poop and pee in most rooms of the house that sat for weeks. You can bet I didn't have friends coming over. My mom would sit and whine about how we needed a housekeeper, but wouldn't just do it herself. I really doubt some minimum-wage housekeeper is going to clean poop that has been in a closet for a week.
But what if you'd had a regular weekly or twice a week housekeeper for maintainance?
Do you think that the 4th degree squalor might have "fed" the mental illness, and visa versa?
BTW, thanks for the kind words, captain optimism...


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Greaseball.. I was NOT trying to be snarky..

My house is often times a pit.. I am a messy person.. I don't have the skills necessary to keep a "tidy" house.. EVERYONE in my family knows this.. There are whole WEEKS with poop on the bathroom wall upstairs.. Because with all the crap I do it gets pushed to the back until midnight when I get up to go pee.. And when I get pregnant it goes down hill. Because I too have a dh who is worthless around the house and doesn't think it's his "job" to do anything..

There have been times when the boys have slept on mattresses on the floor.. They had their frames taken away for jumping on their beds.. And no sheets because they've taken them off for the 15th time that day..

My IL's have threatened us with CPS for my messy house.. But my children are always well fed. And dressed in clean clothes.. And they are happy.. So on a bad day.. OMG.. Don't stop over..

But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.. How lucky am I that I have friends who know I am a good mother even if I am an AWFUL house keeper..


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When a post ends with something of a "dare" to go ahead and call CPS, to me that sounds snarky. Perhaps that's not really what you meant to sound like.

Lots of kids smear poop on the walls when they are potty training. Episodes of poop-smearing in a house that is otherwise sanitary and clean, IMO, are not a concern. If there is poop-smearing in addition to a little trail in the living room through the piles of trash, then it's more of a problem.

It's true that a messy house can feed depression. I sure don't feel good about myself when I wake up to a sink and counter full of dirty dishes and a bunch of ants. It probably would help if I had a housekeeper, but I can't afford one so it's my responsibility to clean. No matter how I'm feeling, there is a minimum amount of cleaning that absolutely has to be done.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

There are whole WEEKS with poop on the bathroom wall upstairs..
I am certainly no Martha Stewart by anoyone's definition, but that would not be acceptable at all in my home. I am not trying to be snarky, I just feel there is a vast difference between things like not vacuming for a while or dishes in the sink or things of that nature, and poop sitting for weeks in a bathroom.

I agree with this:

Quote:

Lots of kids smear poop on the walls when they are potty training. Episodes of poop-smearing in a house that is otherwise sanitary and clean, IMO, are not a concern. If there is poop-smearing in addition to a little trail in the living room through the piles of trash, then it's more of a problem.
As to the topic at hand though:
I believe the original person who posted needs to do something. I have read all the threads and it has been troubling to see the difference in the original poster's comments from "trash everywhere, poop on walls, children's illness not taken care of etc"...to the recent post of:

"it is because the kids can do whatever they want and they are sneaky etc" I am paraphrasing but it seems like the blame has suddenly shifted to the children which is wrong in my opinion.

I don't know these people personally, and while I would be reluctant to call CPS on anyone due to how I know the system is and so forth...another part of me feels if the situation is dire enough to elicit 80 responses from strangers, most of which are urging you to take the children's best interest at heart and do something, then that says something to me.

Please don't get me wrong, as I said, I am no Flylady by ANY means, and we are not well off in any respect, but there is a certain level of cleanliness humans (and animals) naturally like to live in (like most cats naturally seek a litter box for example, dogs don't sleep in their own crap etc) ...and to me, it does indicate a SERIOUS problem when people have complete and utter blatant disregard for even the very BASIC of sanitary conditions or of their children's health.

Take it for what it is worth.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
As to the topic at hand though:
I believe the original person who posted needs to do something. I have read all the threads and it has been troubling to see the difference in the original poster's comments from "trash everywhere, poop on walls, children's illness not taken care of etc"...to the recent post of:

"it is because the kids can do whatever they want and they are sneaky etc" I am paraphrasing but it seems like the blame has suddenly shifted to the children which is wrong in my opinion.

I don't know these people personally, and while I would be reluctant to call CPS on anyone due to how I know the system is and so forth...another part of me feels if the situation is dire enough to elicit 80 responses from strangers, most of which are urging you to take the children's best interest at heart and do something, then that says something to me.

Please don't get me wrong, as I said, I am no Flylady by ANY means, and we are not well off in any respect, but there is a certain level of cleanliness humans (and animals) naturally like to live in (like most cats naturally seek a litter box for example, dogs don't sleep in their own crap etc) ...and to me, it does indicate a SERIOUS problem when people have complete and utter blatant disregard for even the very BASIC of sanitary conditions or of their children's health.

Take it for what it is worth.

I was just pointing out that the reason that the house is so bad is because the children have been left to fend for themselves. There has never been any order established in that home. Its like martial law. The kids are fed and clothed, but other than that they have free reign. THAT is not the children's fault....its just more evidence of their neglectful parenting and failing to give the children any guidance. I am by no means blaming the children. Please don't take what I said out of context.

As for acting in this situation, where did I ever say that I wasn't going to do anything??? I am! Dh and I are working with the family to help them get things cleaned up and get things under control. They just go back from vacation, and I don't think that our "help" would be kindly reveived if we jumped right down their throats the second they arrived. Dh and I plan to have a good talk with them very soon, and I will be going over for several hours a day for a while to help get things cleaned up.

If my attempts fail, then I will certainly call CPS....I already said that. My concern here is for the children.


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## Seeking Refuge (Nov 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*

It's true that a messy house can feed depression. I sure don't feel good about myself when I wake up to a sink and counter full of dirty dishes and a bunch of ants.

Greaseball I am not taking issue with you so please don't take this as such. I just wanted to grumble for a moment about the type of society that leads to any woman making a statement such as this one. Why is it that we identify so much with our domestic roles that they become all wrapped up with our self worth. I for one am a busy woman, I am a college student, a mother of four and I have two girl scout troops. I do not feel bad about myself if I don't get my dishes done the night before. Do I like the mess? No but do I let it make me feel bad about myself. I have a pin on my jacket that says "a clean house is the sign of a wasted life"

To the OP, monitor the situation and if it doesn't improve you really need to help those kids. And for the record no midwife worth their salt will deliver in filth.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Dh and I plan to have a good talk with them very soon, and I will be going over for several hours a day for a while to help get things cleaned up.
While I do find that admirable and I wasn't trying to attack you at all, I suppose my feeling on the issue is, if their children were already taken away for MONTHS and they had the government (cps) all in their business and how scary that must be to think your children might be taken away for GOOD...and that STILL doesn't change you or scare you straight or whatever--it indicates a huge problem...and I feel that a "nice long talk" and you cleaning up their mess for them won't do a bit of help either---it will be the exact same in a matter of time.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know that no child should live how you described and I hope there is some resolution.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2radata*
Why is it that we identify so much with our domestic roles that they become all wrapped up with our self worth.

I don't feel good either when my house is a mess. Not because it has anything to do with my self worth, but because I don't like being in a mess. It has nothing to do with gender roles and domesticity and everything to do with feeling more collected in an orderly environment. It's personality, not gender role. At least for me.

Namaste!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Mess is emotionally draining, while a clean house enhances the mood. When the house is clean, I wake up eariler, I feel more energetic and optimistic, and am more patient with everyone else. It's the exact opposite if the house is dirty. But maybe it is usually women who are affected this way.


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## Seeking Refuge (Nov 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't feel good either when my house is a mess. Not because it has anything to do with my self worth, but because I don't like being in a mess. It has nothing to do with gender roles and domesticity and everything to do with feeling more collected in an orderly environment. It's personality, not gender role. At least for me.

Namaste!


There is a difference between not liking mess and "not feeling good about yourself". I hate mess, it makes me crazy and cranky and what not but I recognize it as a by-product of a busy productive family and not some personal failure on my part as a human being.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Maybe we are just getting stuck on semantics. I can only speak personally. It doesn't reflect on my worth as a person if my house is messy, but I do feel better when it is clean, only because I feel a sense of accomplishment, I feel like it is one less task to do, I feel generally happier because things are how I like them (the bit of control freak in me lol)...and things of that nature.

To me, it has nothing to do with gender roles or domesticity or the like either. Even before I was ever married or anything, when I was little and I got my first room---after having shared with my sister for so long, I was weird about keeping it clean (well until my teen years!)...it just makes me feel more relaxed when there is a sense of order.

Again, I am NO *flylady* or anything, I don't wear shoes inside and I can't see my friggin face in the sink...but I sigh and feel like *ahhhhhgghhh* at the sight of dishes piled up everywhere...know what I mean?

I think there is a happy medium in most things. I think similar thoughts about people with disgustingly clean you could eat a meal off their bathroom floor at any given time day or night houses...as I do about people who live in squalor... that something is a bit off...


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## Subhuti (Feb 18, 2005)

To return the original post, what stood out for me was numerous untreated UTI's of the DD. Party of Six, has anyone considered the source of the UTI's?

A family member of mine was sexually abused as a child, and so I have done a lot of reading on childhood sexual abuse. One of the red flags is frequent UTI's. Could there be more going on in the house than you suspect? I am not suggesting that the parents are abusing the children necessarily, but the question should be asked given the UTI's. Does someone else has access to the (frequently unsupervised) DD.

Sometimes unsupervised children with dysfunctional parents do things to each other. Siblings sexually abuse each other.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the possibility of sexual abuse but please keep it in mind.

I really feel for you in the decisions you have to make right now. I agree that preserving your relationship with the family is crucial, for the future well being of the children.

Another suggestion: does the family have enough money that a live in housekeeper / daily housekeeper could be hired? Perhaps a cleaning service (or you) could get it into shape, and then someone could be hired. Then it would never get so bad again. Can you propose this ? Its expensive, but look at the stakes here.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatskillMtnMama*
To return the original post, what stood out for me was numerous untreated UTI's of the DD. Party of Six, has anyone considered the source of the UTI's?

A family member of mine was sexually abused as a child, and so I have done a lot of reading on childhood sexual abuse. One of the red flags is frequent UTI's. Could there be more going on in the house than you suspect? I am not suggesting that the parents are abusing the children necessarily, but the question should be asked given the UTI's. Does someone else has access to the (frequently unsupervised) DD.

Sometimes unsupervised children with dysfunctional parents do things to each other. Siblings sexually abuse each other.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the possibility of sexual abuse but please keep it in mind.

I really feel for you in the decisions you have to make right now. I agree that preserving your relationship with the family is crucial, for the future well being of the children.

Another suggestion: does the family have enough money that a live in housekeeper / daily housekeeper could be hired? Perhaps a cleaning service (or you) could get it into shape, and then someone could be hired. Then it would never get so bad again. Can you propose this ? Its expensive, but look at the stakes here.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

I don't think that the UTI's are because of sexual abuse. I think that its more likely poor hygine, or just the way her urinary tract is formed that makes her more suceptable. These kids were molested, but that was years after the daughter started developing UTIs. I think that they went untreated because they thought she was just a normal kid who was always wetting her pants and the bed at night.

Ther aren't any adults that have unsupervised access to the children. They go to school, and come home. They are alone for a few hours a couple of times a week. I know that the parents aren't doing anything to the kids....I know them well, and I know that they wouldn't do that kind of thing.

Besides all of that, there is nothing else that sends up a red flag. I honestly don't think that there is any sexual abuse going on now.

I had a wonderful talk with BIL yesterday. I had gone by to pick up my niece to take her to a church activity. I went early, specifically, so that I could talk with him. I told him about my cncerns. I told him that I was worried that of CPS came back to check up on them that they would see that. I told him that its not right to let kids live like that. I told him that dh and I want to help. He accepted my offer to help. He was practically in tears. He is still really depressed, and I'm sure that SIL is as well(she is just really quiet about it)

He plans to start painting this weekend. After I get things under control, I plan to offer to come in weekly and get things caught up for them. I'm sure BIL will pay me. I honestly don't mind.

These people are human beings. They really do love their kids. They may not know how to be perfect parents, but they are trying to do what they think it right. They are not horrible monsters that lock their kids in the closet and feed them only bread and water. Their kids are happy, fed, and clothed. My niece was telling me about how much fun they had together on vacation. She told me how she is just like her dad...he is her best friend.

These parents are just stuck in a rut and overwhelmed. They are paying the price of not guiding their children more directly from an early age. They are lazy. I'm sure that depression plays a huge part in all of this as well.

Of course my first concern is the children. I want them to be happy, but they are happy now. They may be living in filth, but you can fix that. If I can't, I will find someone who can.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
These people are human beings. They really do love their kids. They may not know how to be perfect parents, but they are trying to do what they think it right.

I teared up when I read this. Good luck helping this family- I really hope you guys can make a difference for them. If you think they are up for it, you might want to investigate the local Family Support Center. Most centers have different parenting classes, and a lot of access to resources to help parents.

I'm thinking of you and this family.
Kaly


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
Of course my first concern is the children. I want them to be happy, but they are happy now. They may be living in filth, but you can fix that. If I can't, I will find someone who can.

I just wanted to tell you that I think you're doing a wonderful thing for these parents. They are lucky to have you! I hope things continue to improve with them, and that you're able to help this family and those children.

Let us know how it goes!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Party of six-\

I think you are doing the right thing. The parents need help, but CPS may not be the way to go right now.

hugs to you as you work through this.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

It does sound like you're doing the right thing.
Once again, I want to suggest that after the big cleanup they get some hired help once or twice a week with the house.
I think it could help a LOT. For the kids, for the depression...


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

They are so lucky to have you.


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## muldey (May 8, 2002)

Party of six,
You are doing a wonderful thing for this family.IMO,CPS would make the situation much worse.I hope you can help them get everything under control.I'm sure my home is 1st degree squalor(how I would love some help,but not finacially possible for us),but we're working on it.Freecycle is a wonderful thing,I have given away a ton of unneeded items and it has really kept the clutter down.If someone called CPS on us(BTDT for a completely different reason),it would be absolutely devastating for the children and for us.Since this family has also been there,I'm wondering if some of their depression is due to that.I know mine is,and it's been almost 4 years.Dealing with CPS is absolute HELL.

Please keep us updated.


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