# Circumcised, Sues and WINS!



## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

and many other INTACTIVISTS VIDEOS!!!







:







:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonobo3D

you NEED to comment and provide support!!!


----------



## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

heyyyy this is OUR Carrie!!!







:







:


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!! I HOPE this sets a precedent, and that more boys start to sue their mutilators! One way to get the rates to decline a lot, and make doctors not want to perform the procedure!

Do you know if there a statute of limitations of when a boy turns 18 how many years he can wait to sue?


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Here's the circumcised video itself:







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8szj...e=channel_page

Thanks for the heads up, Enith!







:


----------



## mjg013 (Jul 29, 2008)

That is awesome. I had heard about this briefly the other day. I'm still baffled that anyone with information chooses to mutilate their baby boys.


----------



## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammyswanson* 
Awesome!!!!!!!!!!! I HOPE this sets a precedent, and that more boys start to sue their mutilators! One way to get the rates to decline a lot, and make doctors not want to perform the procedure!

Do you know if there a statute of limitations of when a boy turns 18 how many years he can wait to sue?

I belief it is just one year... I can't wait to hear more stories like this!!







:


----------



## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

William Stowell looks like he's wearing one of the buttons with my little boy's face on it that says, but it's too far away to be sure. The buttons say, "You're welcome shapes his world; bring the whole baby home." That baby's 5 1/2 years old now! ;-)

All of these videos were excellent, thanks for sharing!


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Moved to activism.


----------



## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Can someone explain to me how a person can sue the hospital and doctor? Did they not have the permission of the child's parents? Thanks.


----------



## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetdaughter* 
Can someone explain to me how a person can sue the hospital and doctor? Did they not have the permission of the child's parents? Thanks.

I'm curious too although since it is a cosmetic procedure, maybe the argument is that it wasn't the parent's right to consent to a non-necessary medical procedure that has long-term consequences for simply cosmetic purposes. I don't think a parent can put a tattoo on a baby for example of have them get a nose job (or at least I hope not and if it is possible, the child should be able to sue as an adult).

I do hope this continues and becomes a trend. It would be a fast way to stop (or at least greatly reduce) the number of circumcisions done.


----------



## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robertandenith* 
and many other INTACTIVISTS VIDEOS!!!







:







:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonobo3D

you NEED to comment and provide support!!!
















Very articulate! This is exactly how my DH feels.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Awesome news! Nothing motivates a doctor like fear of a lawsuit, after all...


----------



## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogmom327* 
I'm curious too although since it is a cosmetic procedure, maybe the argument is that it wasn't the parent's right to consent to a non-necessary medical procedure that has long-term consequences for simply cosmetic purposes. I don't think a parent can put a tattoo on a baby for example of have them get a nose job (or at least I hope not and if it is possible, the child should be able to sue as an adult).

I do hope this continues and becomes a trend. It would be a fast way to stop (or at least greatly reduce) the number of circumcisions done.

Then perhaps people should sue their parents, since after all, they were the ones who made the decision to cut off their child's foreskin. Don't get me wrong, I'm as against circumcision as anybody, I just don't see how suing a doctor who had the permission from the parents is right.


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

The doctor was responsible for his own actions. If I get permission from a parent to beat their kid senseless (or whatever harmful act you want to imagine,) does that mean I'm not responsible for making that choice?

Also, doctors enjoy an authoritative position in this culture, and they cultivate that and assume it's their right. That's a kind of power (even if it's just psychological) and with power comes responsibility. (I just wish Spiderman didn't come to mind now when I say that.







)


----------



## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
The doctor was responsible for his own actions. If I get permission from a parent to beat their kid senseless (or whatever harmful act you want to imagine,) does that mean I'm not responsible for making that choice?

Also, doctors enjoy an authoritative position in this culture, and they cultivate that and assume it's their right. That's a kind of power (even if it's just psychological) and with power comes responsibility. (I just wish Spiderman didn't come to mind now when I say that.







)


----------



## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

I understand the arguement that the parent's consented. But the doctor performed, and often solicited an unneccesery surgical procedure. The DOCTOR knows it's not medically indicated. The parents, all too often, just made the mistake of assuming the doctor wouldn't do it without a good reason


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

The parents, all too often, just *made the mistake* of assuming the doctor wouldn't do it without a good reason
Bolding mine - so the parents made the mistake, and the physican pays? That doesn't seem right.

As a health care provider, this makes me exceedingly unhappy.

The precedent alone is scary. The onus is on the PARENTS to do research and make informed decisions.

Are physicians in positions of power? Yes. But since when do we give parents a free pass on stuff like this?

I did research on issues affecting my kids, far be it from me to blame someone else for something I never looked into, or made a wrong decision on.

I work in a combined care unit, and I counsel parents _AGAINST_ circumcision all the time (I'm in Canada FWIW).

G!d help me if some couple turns around and sues me because I assisted in a procedure that they signed off on.

ETA - That last sentence is a bit of a red herring to be honest; I've avoid assisting in the circs at all costs....


----------



## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
The doctor was responsible for his own actions. If I get permission from a parent to beat their kid senseless (or whatever harmful act you want to imagine,) does that mean I'm not responsible for making that choice?

Also, doctors enjoy an authoritative position in this culture, and they cultivate that and assume it's their right. That's a kind of power (even if it's just psychological) and with power comes responsibility. (I just wish
Spiderman didn't come to mind now when I say that.







)

Beating a child senseless is illegal circumcision, unfortunately, is not. Of course you would be held responsible for beating a child, but so would the parents. I just don't see how one party can be held responsible, and not the other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
Bolding mine - so the parents made the mistake, and the physican pays? That doesn't seem right.

As a health care provider, this makes me exceedingly unhappy.

The precedent alone is scary. The onus is on the PARENTS to do research and make informed decisions.

Are physicians in positions of power? Yes. But since when do we give parents a free pass on stuff like this?










: Exactly. The precedent is scary. What if men who don't actually don't mind being circ'ed decide they want to make some money and sue their doctor?


----------



## needhelpplease (Sep 18, 2007)

Has there ever been the case where a boy has turned 18 and sued, even when their parents gave proper consent?

I'm pretty sure the only lawsuits have been where consent was invalid (not given, or fraudulent). I think in Stowell's case it was fraud as his mother's consent was not valid due to pain killers? I could be wrong. Is Dave here?

I'm guessing there can't have been a case yet where it was determined this is just not something parents can consent to?

I'm hoping there will be soon.


----------



## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *needhelpplease* 
Has there ever been the case where a boy has turned 18 and sued, even when their parents gave proper consent?

I'm pretty sure the only lawsuits have been where consent was invalid (not given, or fraudulent). I think in Stowell's case it was fraud as his mother's consent was not valid due to pain killers? I could be wrong. Is Dave here?

I'm guessing there can't have been a case yet where it was determined this is just not something parents can consent to?

I'm hoping there will be soon.

Thank you, that is what I was wondering. That makes a lot more sense, and I agree with you on the part that parents shouldn't be able to consent to RIC.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

With stuff like this, it's not really about who is MOST morally culpable. It's about who you have to target in order to bring about the needed legal/cultural reform. If doctors decide to stop performing circs, then the circ rate will plummet (mohels will keep doing it, but since 98% of our population is not Jewish let alone Orthodox, I'm going to take my victory where I can get it!).


----------



## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm currently expecting a boy, and we don't plan on circ'ing...but i think that lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous, and makes "intactivists" look like nuts. No wonder doctor fees are so high - they have to protect themselves against lawsuits like this one.

If anyone should be sued - it's the parents, who consented. But really, how about just accepting the fact that his parents were probably uninformed on the subject, and forgiving them - and then making others aware of the harm of circ'ing...not make the people who believe it is harmful look like a bunch of crazy people.


----------



## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I'm currently expecting a boy, and we don't plan on circ'ing...but i think that lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous, and makes "intactivists" look like nuts. No wonder doctor fees are so high - they have to protect themselves against lawsuits like this one.

If anyone should be sued - it's the parents, who consented. But really, how about just accepting the fact that his parents were probably uninformed on the subject, and forgiving them - and then making others aware of the harm of circ'ing...not make the people who believe it is harmful look like a bunch of crazy people.

The doctors know it's unnecessary, the parents may not. The doctors are the guilty party for not informing the parents that it is not necessary. Most know this but continue to perform circumcisions because the parents demand it.

Quote:

Such providers have legal and ethical duties to their child patients to render competent medical care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else expresses. ... the pediatrician's responsibilities to his or her patient exist independent of parental desires or proxy consent. (American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Bioethics. Informed consent, parental permission, and assent in pediatric practice. Pediatrics 1995;95(2):314-7.)
So it's a case of the pediatricians not following through on their legal and ethical duties. I hope there are more lawsuits Perhaps that will make doctors think twice about their ethical responsibilities to the patient.


----------



## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
Bolding mine - so the parents made the mistake, and the physican pays? That doesn't seem right.

....

Both the parents and the physician made the mistake. The way to stop circumcision is to educate the parents but also stop the doctors. If the doctors are afraid of lawsuits they would stop and rethink their legal responsibility.


----------



## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
With stuff like this, it's not really about who is MOST morally culpable. It's about who you have to target in order to bring about the needed legal/cultural reform. If doctors decide to stop performing circs, then the circ rate will plummet (mohels will keep doing it, but since 98% of our population is not Jewish let alone Orthodox, I'm going to take my victory where I can get it!).

I'd be happy with that situation too.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The only person many people have to ask on this issue is the Dr. and when a Dr. dosnt provide them with the information that circ is not medically needed he is failing to provide full disclosure. Then him performing the circ is violating his oath to first do no harm.

This kind of lawsuit lets Dr's know that someday down the road they may have to pay a heavy price for doing the circ so it may be what it takes to put a stop to this barbaric procedure. It is a step in the right direction for sure.

Many parents still have no idea that circ is not medically necessary and have no way to research it on their own. Believe it or not many still dont have the internet and the only place for information is family and the health care worker they choose.

It is the Dr's responsibility to explain in detail what is lost the pain involved not only at the time of the circ but during healing and the possibility of problems when the child is and adult. It is also his/her responsibility to refuse to perform cosmetic surgery on an infant. When he/she violates either of two things then he is ultimately to blame for the damage done.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

The culpability of the medical profession is that they SOLICIT circumcision.

In no other situation is a doctor allowed to solicit cosmetic surgery. It's unethical and against their practices.

You cannot go to a physician for a medical condition and have him offer, suggest, solicit any other cosmetic procedure. It's unethical.

When doctors and nurses stop asking "Will he be circimcised?" or walking in and stating "We'll circumcise him before he goes home tomorrow" then the circ rate will go down.

Also, it's not just about soliciting a non necessary cosmetic surgical procedure, it's about causing harm. Unfortunately, the vast mojority of circumcision complications are not seen by the doctors who perform them as they manifest later in life.

I agree that parents hold legal liability as well.

I am currently reading Children's Genitals Under The Knife by Hanny Lightfoot Klein and she talks about cases in other countries where circumcisers AND parents have been held legally liable and punished for Female Genital Mutilation.....so it has happened elsewhere.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
The culpability of the medical profession is that they SOLICIT circumcision.

In no other situation is a doctor allowed to solicit cosmetic surgery. It's unethical and against their practices.

I absolutely agree with this, I really do. On the unit where I worked, we never brought it up - period. If a couple asked, we had to be willing to discuss it with them (this rarely occured - most couples came in with their minds made up already).

Honestly though, in my experience, I've never seen physician ask about circumcision. Could that be my geographic location? The midwife or OB delivers the baby (okay, technically mum delivers the baby!) and then the nurses provide care.

I've never seen a doc come around and ask, so what about circumcision? Parents will ask when it's done, and they usually come with the cash (here in Ontario is $300 cash to the doctor, $300 more when the hospital bills you) or the parents come in and say NO CIRC.

Again, I realize this is my own limited experience and not representative. Maybe that's why I reacted so vicerally to the thought of being sued.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I think because you are in Canada you are not seeing the solicitations nearly as much as we are in the US. It's part of the routine paperwork you sign for hospital admission for maternity care.

The Case Against Circumcision forum us full of stories of nurses soliciting circumcision from mothers of newborns. I don't know if the doctors actually solicit it but nurses frequently do and according to events told in the forum, they often ask numerous times once told no.

I can't comment on this personally as I've not had any hospital births but I have heard second hand how common it is in the US.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 

The Case Against Circumcision forum us full of stories of nurses soliciting circumcision from mothers of newborns. I don't know if the doctors actually solicit it but nurses frequently do and according to events told in the forum, they often ask numerous times once told no.

That's absolutely stomach turning.







I'd be curious to see stats (which I can easily look up, I'm just musing!) on the rates between Canada & the States circumcision wise. Obviously you'd have to take into account the vast population difference, but it'd be interesting.

Seriously though, I can't fathom mentioning circumcision to a new mother. It's hard enough discussing the heel prick for the testing for genetic disorders, etc...


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Canadian over all circ rate stands at around 25%

The US circ rate stands at around 56% cut. So Canada is WAY ahead of the USA on genital intergrity issues.

Canada statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

Statistics: http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2003

Map statistic: http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

MCatLvr, Marilyn Milos told me that the latest circ rates in the USA are 52%. I believe this data is from 2006. I saw her in Washington DC end of March and i heard her say this.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer*
The culpability of the medical profession is that they SOLICIT circumcision.

In no other situation is a doctor allowed to solicit cosmetic surgery. It's unethical and against their practices.

You cannot go to a physician for a medical condition and have him offer, suggest, solicit any other cosmetic procedure. It's unethical.

When doctors and nurses stop asking "Will he be circimcised?" or walking in and stating "We'll circumcise him before he goes home tomorrow" then the circ rate will go down.

Also, it's not just about soliciting a non necessary cosmetic surgical procedure, it's about causing harm. Unfortunately, the vast mojority of circumcision complications are not seen by the doctors who perform them as they manifest later in life.

I agree that parents hold legal liability as well.

I am currently reading Children's Genitals Under The Knife by Hanny Lightfoot Klein and she talks about cases in other countries where circumcisers AND parents have been held legally liable and punished for Female Genital Mutilation.....so it has happened elsewhere.

This, totally. Not only does the medical profession (speaking in general terms) solicit circumcision, there is no true informed consent. It is exceedingly common for doctors and nurses to fail to give any information whatsoever about what circumcision entails as a procedure, its risks and complications, and the pain the baby suffers, let alone what the baby is losing with the loss of the foreskin.

Even when doctors and nurses are personally opposed to circumcision, there is a culture of silence (aka "respect for the parent's decision") around circ. So a doctor who asks "are you circumcising?" may react happily when s/he hears a "NO WAY!" from the parents -- but will not react with anything except acceptance to a positive response to the question. This is an absolute ethical breach of their duty to ensure informed consent. Doctors are not required by any code of conduct to carry out procedures that are not in the best interests of the patient. Yet the doctors who will refuse to do circumcisions on ethical grounds are few and far between.

There are a million circumcisions done every year in the US, and it's a HUGE moneymaker for doctors and hospitals. It is THE most common surgical procedure in the US. Not to mention the lucrative after-market for foreskins to be used in medical research and tissue cultures.

A study was done in Hawaii once upon a time demonstrating that when parents were shown a video about what circumcision is and counseled that it isn't necessary, rates dropped like a rock. So of course they discontinued that education program.

I absolutely believe that doctors, nurses, and hospitals should be sued, sued, and sued again for their absolute ethical and moral failure to stop carrying out non-essential, cosmetic surgeries on babies' penises. They have an independent ethical duty to their patients (the babies) to do no harm. This ethical duty is violated about a million times a year.


----------



## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
MCatLvr, Marilyn Milos told me that the latest circ rates in the USA are 52%. I believe this data is from 2006. I saw her in Washington DC end of March and i heard her say this.

That of course is a bit regionally dependent but every now and then I hear a surprise like people saying there are more than I would expect in certain areas.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Yes, Jwhispers, that is a national average. Regionally, it varies a lot around the country. I have heard that California is about 30% and the midwest region is very high at around 90%.

Where I am in the Mid-Atlantic region, it's pretty high at the local hospitals. The homebirth community tends to leave their children as nature intended.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

And Quirky, I totally agree with you.

I think as more information comes out, we may be seeing teens coming of legal age and seeking legal recourse. They only have a small window of time to do so. I believe it's a year past their 18th birthday on average but I suspect it varies from state to state.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

That is great to hear PF I havnt been unable to track down more recent stats on the net.


----------



## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

If anyone should be sued - it's the parents, who consented. But really, how about just accepting the fact that his parents were probably uninformed on the subject, and forgiving them - and then making others aware of the harm of circ'ing...not make the people who believe it is harmful look like a bunch of crazy people.
In other words, they should just get over it? Unfortunately circumcision isn't something you can physically "get over", so it's no wonder many men can't emotionally "get over" it. Accepting a permanent disability given to one by God or nature is a different thing to accepting a permanent disability (and it is a disability - the dis-ability to have normal sex, _ever_, your whole life) given to you for no good reason. A man might be expected to come to terms with being born without a hand; but how can you ask him to come to terms with his parents choosing to cut it off as an infant? Wouldn't you expect him to be angry; to be reminded of it and freshly angry every time he wanted to do something that required two hands; to seek compensation; to try to stop other parents cutting the hands off their children? It may be emotionally healthier for him to forgive his parents, but that doesn't mitigate those other factors, and it is irrelevant to the process of litigation. A girl might forgive her rapist, but she may still - some would say _should_ still - prosecute him. Given that circumcision is arguably more physically permanent and damaging than rape, how is it "crazy" for a man to sue?


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I wish I had asked her for the source of the number. I don't like quoting something like that and not being able to give a genuine source that can be verified....but she's Marily Milos ya know!







She's credible. One can always call NOCIRC and talk to her! `


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
In other words, they should just get over it? Unfortunately circumcision isn't something you can physically "get over", so it's no wonder many men can't emotionally "get over" it. Accepting a permanent disability given to one by God or nature is a different thing to accepting a permanent disability (and it is a disability - the dis-ability to have normal sex, _ever_, your whole life) given to you for no good reason. A man might be expected to come to terms with being born without a hand; but how can you ask him to come to terms with his parents choosing to cut it off as an infant? Wouldn't you expect him to be angry; to be reminded of it and freshly angry every time he wanted to do something that required two hands; to seek compensation; to try to stop other parents cutting the hands off their children? It may be emotionally healthier for him to forgive his parents, but that doesn't mitigate those other factors, and it is irrelevant to the process of litigation. A girl might forgive her rapist, but she may still - some would say _should_ still - prosecute him. Given that circumcision is arguably more physically permanent and damaging than rape, how is it "crazy" for a man to sue?

What an excellent analogy! I love the hand example. It's so clear. But when you are in a circing culture, it seems like no big deal to a lot of people. But when you use the hand example, it is so starkly obvious (at least to me).

I can clearly understand how legally a parent can be held liable but they also are so incredibly misled and ill informed by the medical community. The medical community needs to be held accountable for harming babies and the men they become. When the doctors stop solicitation, when the doctors start educating, the rates will drop drastically. It's my understanding that this is what happened in Great Britain and Australia.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
In other words, they should just get over it? Unfortunately circumcision isn't something you can physically "get over", so it's no wonder many men can't emotionally "get over" it. Accepting a permanent disability given to one by God or nature is a different thing to accepting a permanent disability (and it is a disability - the dis-ability to have normal sex, _ever_, your whole life) given to you for no good reason. A man might be expected to come to terms with being born without a hand; but how can you ask him to come to terms with his parents choosing to cut it off as an infant? Wouldn't you expect him to be angry; to be reminded of it and freshly angry every time he wanted to do something that required two hands; to seek compensation; to try to stop other parents cutting the hands off their children? It may be emotionally healthier for him to forgive his parents, but that doesn't mitigate those other factors, and it is irrelevant to the process of litigation. A girl might forgive her rapist, but she may still - some would say _should_ still - prosecute him. Given that circumcision is arguably more physically permanent and damaging than rape, how is it "crazy" for a man to sue?









: well said Smokering.


----------



## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

While I do think the PARENTS should be the ones responsible for making sure this does not happen to their sons, I do think doctors and nurses should get in trouble for soliciting the procedure.

I had my son at a hospital. I asked to leave early and he had to be examined before we could leave AMA and while they had him for like 20 minutes, they came and asked me THREE TIMES if I wanted him circ'd. I told them no before he was even born. It was in my birth plan. I told them no again when they asked. The last time I said "if you touch my kids penis, I will sue you." They didnt ask again.

I have a "dont push me around" personality. Someone else who may not handle confrontation well or be groggy from c section surgery or meds or whatever else.....well then the doctor should be held accountable.


----------



## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
Honestly though, in my experience, I've never seen physician ask about circumcision. Could that be my geographic location? The midwife or OB delivers the baby (okay, technically mum delivers the baby!) and then the nurses provide care.

In the USA, it is very common for docs to offer circumcision or try to talk parents into circumcision. We were asked 5 or 6 times in a "pro circ" hospital.







An improvement from the old days, where parental consent was not obtained, and it was commonly done before the Mom woke up after a "knock-out" delivery.


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleeplessMommy* 
In the USA, it is very common for docs to offer circumcision or try to talk parents into circumcision. We were asked 5 or 6 times in a "pro circ" hospital.







An improvement from the old days, where parental consent was not obtained, and it was commonly done before the Mom woke up after a "knock-out" delivery.

That is so absolutely repulsive. Those poor babies.









My exdp is intact and he was absolutely adamant that any boys we had would be as well. Of course, coming from a mother and father who were big intactivists I always saw RIC as the horror it was... but well, knowing that there are health professionals who actually advocate for this... it's stomach turning.

Thanks for the information everyone, I'm super glad this forum is here to educate people!


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
This, totally. Not only does the medical profession (speaking in general terms) solicit circumcision, there is no true informed consent.

I never went through this, as circ wasn't being pushed here even when I had my first baby. (He's 16, which really shows the cultural differences between here and the US, imo.) However, I've heard some really awful things...going back to my mom, in 1963, having a consent for circ shoved under her nose, being told to sign it, and getting attitude from the nurse when she asked questions. My mom's stubborn, and never been one for doing what she's told, or doing things just because everyone else does. She didn't sign.

However, if she had...I'd have trouble blaming her. She was in the first few hours of recovery after a long labour, emergency c-section (in 1963 - things were ugly if they went to section, _and_ she had a classical). She'd woken up in a dark room, still under the effects of a spinal she didn't remember having. There is no way in hell that it would have been informed consent if she'd signed that paper...she probably wasn't even legally able to sign anything at all.

And, it wasn't circ, but I had the same thing. I was pushed into bloodwork for really stupid reasons after I lost Aaron. IMO, the OB in question took advantage of my drugged, exhausted, grieving - and irrational - frame of mind in an attempt to get "the goods" (ie. some way to blame me) on the crazy homebirther. I said yes, and I signed the forms...but I'm honestly not even sure they should be considered legal, under the circumstances. I was only a couple hours out from a state in which I'd blank out mid-sentence...


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
The only person many people have to ask on this issue is the Dr. and when a Dr. dosnt provide them with the information that circ is not medically needed he is failing to provide full disclosure. Then him performing the circ is violating his oath to first do no harm.

This kind of lawsuit lets Dr's know that someday down the road they may have to pay a heavy price for doing the circ so it may be what it takes to put a stop to this barbaric procedure. It is a step in the right direction for sure.

Many parents still have no idea that circ is not medically necessary and have no way to research it on their own. Believe it or not many still dont have the internet and the only place for information is family and the health care worker they choose.

It is the Dr's responsibility to explain in detail what is lost the pain involved not only at the time of the circ but during healing and the possibility of problems when the child is and adult. It is also his/her responsibility to refuse to perform cosmetic surgery on an infant. When he/she violates either of two things then he is ultimately to blame for the damage done.









:














Yes! Thank you for putting it so eloquently!







:


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DesireeH* 
While I do think the PARENTS should be the ones responsible for making sure this does not happen to their sons, I do think doctors and nurses should get in trouble for soliciting the procedure.

I had my son at a hospital. I asked to leave early and he had to be examined before we could leave AMA and while they had him for like 20 minutes, they came and asked me THREE TIMES if I wanted him circ'd. I told them no before he was even born. It was in my birth plan. I told them no again when they asked. The last time I said "if you touch my kids penis, I will sue you." They didnt ask again.

I have a "dont push me around" personality. Someone else who may not handle confrontation well or be groggy from c section surgery or meds or whatever else.....well then the doctor should be held accountable.

You. Are. Awesome!!!!! Your DS is very lucky to have you as a mom!


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleeplessMommy* 
An improvement from the old days, where parental consent was not obtained, and it was commonly done before the Mom woke up after a "knock-out" delivery.

I once asked my mother why she decided to have my brothers circumcised. She said nobody asked her. When she woke up from the birth it was already done. My brothers were born in 1960/1964 in Western PA.

I was the only birth my Mom was awake for, I was born in 1975.


----------



## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I once asked my mother why she decided to have my brothers circumcised. She said nobody asked her. When she woke up from the birth it was already done. My brothers were born in 1960/1964 in Western PA.

I was the only birth my Mom was awake for, I was born in 1975.

My sister was born in '63 outside of Philadelphia. When my parents received the bill from the hospital, there was a charge on it for circumcision. It was easy enough for them to get it off the bill because, obviously, Sis was a girl but I think that does say something about how common circumcision was back then and how little "choice" that generation actually had.

Most of us here make choices that are outside of the mainstream: selective/delayed vax, homebirthing, extended breastfeeding, etc. but those choices involve taking the time to educate ourselves, finding strength in people who support our decisions (not impossible without the internet, but so much more difficult), and staying strong in the face of self-doubt and criticism.

I have trouble blaming my mother for not bucking the system even though, had she done so about a different issue than genital mutilation, my sister would be alive today.

JMNSHO


----------



## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
The doctor was responsible for his own actions. If I get permission from a parent to beat their kid senseless (or whatever harmful act you want to imagine,) does that mean I'm not responsible for making that choice?

Also, doctors enjoy an authoritative position in this culture, and they cultivate that and assume it's their right. That's a kind of power (even if it's just psychological) and with power comes responsibility. (I just wish Spiderman didn't come to mind now when I say that.







)

Totally agree!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetdaughter* 
Beating a child senseless is illegal circumcision, unfortunately, is not. Of course you would be held responsible for beating a child, but so would the parents. I just don't see how one party can be held responsible, and not the other.

Any member of a group can be held responsible, legally. People sue where there is money and where the most change is likely to happen.

Legally, if you were in a group of 20 friends and one (not you) throws a rock at my car, any member of that group can be held legally responsible for the damage. In this case, sure the parents could be held responsible, but the doctor had a greater burden of responsibility by being a member of a trusted community.


----------



## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I really hope more doctors get sued and MGM comes to a screeching halt. It just baffles me that insurance companies won't insure a doctor who does VBACs but has no problems with them doing circs. Hopefully, if this picks up, they'll come to their senses.


----------

