# Help!! I am losing patience with my 4 1/2 year olds drama



## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

My son will be 5 in January. He was a sweet, caring, thoughtful, energetic little man. He also loses his little mind over almost anything that does not go his way. He screams and cries at the top of his lungs, lays down on the floor and carries on and on and on. I have tried coaching him through it: take a deep breath, relax, use your words, etc. I have walked away because it literally makes my ears throb. I have even been taking him to his room so that he can be in a quiet place to calm down and regroup (which actually seems to work pretty well in calming him down). But, i am looking for coping mechanisms. Now, he only does this at home. It isn't something that happens at school. Here is an example of what happened this morning. I'm half awake and he is requesting waffles for breakfast while he watches his favorite tv show (i know that isn't ideal but that is another thread). Apparently, today he wanted just one without syrup. I didn't hear that part. I gave him two with syrup and he fell apart. All was wrong in his world. I am so losing my patience with this and my husband is completely done with it.

Any suggestions?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Honestly, my first suggestion, before anything else, would be to change what he gets for breakfast. If my dd has a breakfast based on grains, let along with syrup, her behavior is bad all day. If she has a breakfast based on protein, like eggs, her behavior is remarkably better, all the way to and including bedtime. It just sets her up right for the day. But your ds sounds very much like how my dd behaved before I switched from cereal to eggs for breakfast. Diet makes a really huge impact on behavior.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Say: "Sorry, but I didn't hear you. It isn't the end of the world, so eat your waffles or not." Walk away. Stay away. 41/2 is old enough for some semblance of self control, and going on and cooking more syrupless waffles simply reinforces that having a screaming fit gets results. He will eventually stop screaming. Turn off the lights and TV as you leave the room.

When he is done pitching a fit, tell him that you will entertain changes in food, but only if he asks you in a respectful manner.

Who is the parent, after all? If you didn't know more than he does, you wouldn't be in charge. So.....


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I would simply say "well here are your waffles. Eat them or don't." And I would disengage.

I can understand turning off the TV but the lights? Why make an upset kid sit in the dark? Turning off the lights is punitive. I don't think there is anything wrong with helping him handle disappointment within the framework of realizing that food is often an easy way for a child to have some control over his environment.

I also agree with Mamazee that I too would offer an egg instead of a high sugar start to the day. I think we all do better with a more protein rich breakfast.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

I guess i'm looking for preventative measures cause trust me, i do all of those things. i have tried everything. i absolutely do not give into fits, the more he screams the more i dig into not giving him what he is screaming about. clearly, the consequence of not getting what he wants does not seem to be getting through to him. and usually he has peanut butter toast and a banana for breakfast. waffles is occasional.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Don't think you can prevent the fit-pitching except by making it totally non-productive. Then it eventually extinguishes itself.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Some of that is normal for that age, but if you think its over-the-top and occurs multiple times daily, you might try reading "The Explosive Child." Some children have more than average difficulty in being flexible, in adjusting to things not being exactly like the picture in their head, and have very low tolerance for frustration. The book can help you formulate a plan for dealing with the behaviors - its more than just a simple matter of not giving in to tantrums. Its also typical for these children to be able to hold it together at school but not at home - this does not indicate that he has self-control over the meltdowns or that he can simply choose to stop behaving as he does.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

It sounds to me like he continues to scream because he doesn't feel heard, especially if you are turning off the TV (why do this? what does it have to do with the issue at hand?) or leaving the room. When he begins to get upset, can you "translate" his screams for him by making empathy guesses: "Oh, you sound really sad! Are you upset because you didn't get what you wanted? It sounds like you're disappointed that your breakfast wasn't the way you were expecting. It can be really disappointing when we think we're going to get something and it doesn't happen. Do you want to tell me what you'd like me to do differently next time?" I'm not saying that you have to bring him a new breakfast or do over whatever was done wrong. But you can let him know that you hear his disappointment and would like him to let you know how it could be better next time.

I don't think this is unreasonable behavior for a 4.5yo. Strong emotions are hard to control and express in a constructive way at any age--when someone makes you really mad, it's hard not to raise your voice or use hurtful words. It's hard to instead be vulnerable and admit to being hurt.

My son is just about a month older than yours, and we deal with this sort of situation all the time. They're still young, still learning how to navigate in a world where they often don't have power or choice! The only difference is, my son doesn't need to escalate his behavior because rather than seeing it as a power struggle or thinking of him as being manipulative, I make sure I've heard clearly what the upset is about, and give him the tools to express himself in a different way.

I see a lot of PPs have advised not "giving in" to the tantrum. In my experience, this only makes a stressful situation worse. Basically you're telling an upset child that you don't care about what they're crying about, that their feelings and needs are less important than your need to "control" your child's behavior. I don't see my methods as "giving in." I see them as working together to meet everyone's needs so we can all be less stressed and have a better time of it.

If we model compassion and understanding, they WILL get it someday.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

lizajane, i do try to talk with him about it but it still escalates the situation. and when he is calm i try to talk to him about it and he tries to get out of it. i did talk with him about what happened this morning, this afternoon. i do think you are right with the not feeling heard part. he often will say "you didn't let me talk", i mean cry, which is frustrating in itself because he won't let me talk! but then when i do stop and ask what he wants to say he says he can't say it anymore. which is frustrating. i'm trying but it doesn't seem to be helping.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Maybe focus more on hearing him, rather than on talking with him about it? Sometimes when I want to have a talk with my son at a time when emotions aren't running so high, he thinks he's "in trouble." When I asked him once what that means, he said "You're going to talk and talk." So, he thinks a talk is being in trouble and thus doesn't want to participate.

I start by asking him if he's worried he's going to be in trouble, and reassuring him that he's not; that I want to talk because I love him and want us to be able to understand one another. I bring the subject up in a way that lets him know I'm firmly on his side. For instance, "You were so sad this morning when I brought your breakfast and it wasn't the way you wanted it. Do you want to tell me about it?" Or, "I want to be sure we can get your breakfast right tomorrow. Is there anything I should know before I start making it?" That way the ball is in his court, so to speak. He gets to "go first" and let out everything he has festering or express needs that are still unmet. Once you've reflected back to him what you heard and made sure you heard him correctly, you could ask him if he's ready to hear how you feel about it. If he's not, respect that and ask again if there's something more he wants to say.

When it's your turn, focus on needs and feelings. "I felt so frustrated this morning because I wanted to help you but I didn't know how. I feel yucky when I'm being yelled at. When I hear yelling I want to cover my ears--and then I feel sad because I can't hear you and help make things better. Now that you've told me what was wrong, I'd like to try again tomorrow because I want everyone in the family to get their needs met if possible."

Of course this isn't a magic bullet or an instant cure. Like anything we do with our kids, it takes time for them to get it and be able to implement it themselves. As I said in my earlier post, if we can model compassion we will eventually see it in our children too. If we refuse to hear their requests because they're not expressed the way we want them to be, we're modeling that trying to express your needs will only cause others to isolate you and withdraw their love--and it will never teach them what we really want them to learn.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


> I would simply say "well here are your waffles. Eat them or don't." And I would disengage.


 This. I have a 5 yo DD who will get upset over things and refuse to tell me why. We'll be going along just fine, and all of a sudden she's huffing and sighing and slamming things around and scowling at me, but getting her to verbalize what is wrong is nearly impossible (and trust me, this kid is capable of a HIGH level of verbalization when she feels like it). Any perceived injustice and there she goes.

What has worked well for us is to just stop providing an audience for the drama. If she starts huffing and sighing and won't tell me what is wrong, I calmly say, "Okay, well I'm here when you're ready to talk about it." and busy myself elsewhere. If she starts to tantrum, she goes to her room with the door shut until she can be calm again. If she comes out before then, I return her to her bedroom, close the door, and walk away. Sometimes I have to do this a few times before she'll stay. I find it helpful in this instance to make sure I am occupied in something else and that she is not deterring me, for example if I was doing the dishes, I put her back in her room, wordlessly, and walk back toward the dishes, even if I have to turn around halfway to the sink and return her to her room. Even standing outside her closed door is engagement with this child. She'll stay in her room and scream for a while, then she'll come out and ask for a hug, which is her 'olive branch'. We have a cuddle. Sometimes she'll tell me what the problem was. Sometimes she won't.


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## raelize (Jun 17, 2006)

your son sounds a lot like my almost 5 (in december) year old dd. i also vote to disengage and leave the room or "help" him to his room to calm down. not having an audience is very important to dd. also, we talk a lot about her bahvior after the fact. so, i know that for her, she just has very strong emotions that she really struggles to control. but she also knows that it is inappropriate to yell/scream/carry on like she does. and a lot of this is also as a pp said - not having the maturity and ability to verbalize the feelings/issues and feeling very very strong emotions

the biggest thing that has helped has been really making sure she is sleeping enough. when she is well rested, she can handle the ups and downs of every day better. when she is tired, watch out world. it hasn't totally extinguished it, but it does help a lot.

also, if it is something that i know before hand will set her off (like dinner plans changing when she was excited about them) i will talk her through it. it does often help. otherwise, if it is something i didn't catch (like the waffles) i will just disengage and later talk about ways she could have asked respectfully and explaining that i didn't hear her and that it was not respectful for her to treat me that way.

we also spend a lot of time talking about different ideas that are the foundation of her being upset. for example - sometimes she will flip out about not having the pink "thing" that she wants. we have talked about how having a certain color doesn't mean anything about who you are or what you like, it just means you got stuck with the blue fork or the orange paper. Or if she is upset because the clothes she wants to wear aren't clean that day, we have talked about how sometimes you don't get to wear your favorite clothes, you jsut have to wear what is clean or seasonally appropriate - and that it doesn't mean anything about you personally, it just means that your pink leggings were dirty adn your brown ones were clean. of course, we have talked about these things after the fact, but now we have talked about it so much that when i see that look in her eye i can start reminding her about those concepts adn she calms down.

i read part of the explosive child, i found it helpful, and it helped me come up with those strategies i talked about above. the main focus of the book is to discuss strategies with your child once they are calm to be used the next time they are freaking out.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

hereis another example. let's say i am talking on the phone with my husband and he and i are wrapping up 'cause hubby has a meeting to go to and i say "ok goodbye" and i hang up at the very same moment he asks to talk to his dad. then he realizes i hung up and freaks out. even if it is a simple fix, like, i can call him back, no big deal. but he still carries on and on and on.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kindacrunchy*
> 
> hereis another example. let's say i am talking on the phone with my husband and he and i are wrapping up 'cause hubby has a meeting to go to and i say "ok goodbye" and i hang up at the very same moment he asks to talk to his dad. then he realizes i hung up and freaks out. even if it is a simple fix, like, i can call him back, no big deal. but he still carries on and on and on.


Slow down the process and start with empathy, without going into reassurances that it's a simple fix. If you're telling him that you can call back, that it's a simple fix, that once he calms down you'll dial--then you're not hearing his upset. In fact you're basically telling him that his feelings aren't valid at all. Give ONLY empathy, until he feels heard: "OH NO! You really wanted to talk to Papa, and I hung up before you got to! That's so disappointing!" Repeat some version of this until he calms down. There's no need to "fix" the problem until he's sure you heard him! Once he's calm, you can ask if he'd like to hear some solutions--or if you think he's ready, simply say that you're willing to call back if he'd still like a chance to talk.

Of course, if this is a common scene you could avoid it by asking, before you hang up, if DS would like to talk with his dad. Or check in with DS before you even call, so you can let DH know that when you're done DS would like to talk.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic*
> 
> Don't think you can prevent the fit-pitching except by making it totally non-productive. Then it eventually extinguishes itself.


I agree completely.

Get the Tv out of the picture and try some protein in the morning, too. My son is much better if he's had eggs or oatmeal than plain bread-y things.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I have to say, this doesn't fit with my vision of AP. This sounds like CIO for the older set, and doesn't feel gentle to me. The basic idea is the same as CIO: ignore the crying and it will eventually stop. Sure, but at what cost? It isn't teaching the child a better way to communicate, it's only teaching them that their needs will not be met unless they're expressed in a way that meets adult approval. The child may be "demanding" a new waffle, but the adult is also demanding that the child speak in a certain way. The adult is doing exactly what they're asking the child NOT to do! I think the only way to get them to speak the way you'd like is to model it, yes, over and over again.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

nak

my dd1 is 5 in april. she is dramatic too sometimes. i tend to state fact (you asked for waffles, i made waffles) and then be available but disengaged until she calms down. her dad (xp), sits and talks and empathises and tries to solve/fix/augment. she is WAY more resilient around me. obviously she's only one child, not every child.

I'm pretty sure the harm of CIO results from the baby being unable to find you, unable to communicate its need and unable to do anything to help itself. the same definitely cannot be said for my 4yo! and tbh i don't want her to realise i will listen for 50mins how heartbroken she was that i cut her toast into squares rather than triangles, i want her to realise it's a very minor thing in the grand scheme, and eat her toast.

when something serious happens i will talk for longer, it's not like i dismiss every time she's upset as drama, but i think my response SHOWS her perspective. Your toast is the wrong shape? oh well. you're missing your non-resident father? I'm sorry, you'll see him tomorrow, you want to phone him? Your relative died? Yeah that's terrible, and we're all feeling it to some degree, want to hug and revisit the topic as often as necessary?

ymmv, i guess it depends on whether one feels one's kids are looking for external guidance on scales of hardship and perspective or just a relentlessly empathic person to hear their every ill as if all were equally tragic.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Making the tantrum non-productive doesnt' have to mean basically CIO for the older set. You can disengage in a respectful and gentle way. "You didn't want syrup on your waffles. What should we do about that?" *tantrum* "OK, well let me know when you decide whether you just want that waffle or a new one without syrup." And then don't get involved with the tantrum. We don't always help tantrums by staying involved, and we can feed the emotional state by getting upset too. I really think in a lot of cases it's best to just disengage, not abandon but not get emotionally involved and invested in it. Just let the tantrum go.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Okay. I have a different tack.

I find that DD1 screams and has fits when:

1. She is very hungry. I.e. before she's eaten. The best thing I can do is have a healthy snack ready for her when she wakes. I'm up first but can you leave some nuts and dried fruits out for him to get when he wakes?

2. She has to pee but either doesn't know it, or is ignoring it. :irked Honestly, there's not a lot I can do about that, except making sure that I treat lightly before the morning pee, or if I know she probably has to go, LOL. I might suggest it, like, "Hey, why don't you take baby pee and go pee and then we'll have this snack..."

3. She is very tired. Then, my disengagement with the fit goes like this: "You just sound exhausted. I'm taking you to bed for your own good." Yes, she still has a fit but she usually falls asleep for a nap or night very quickly if she's *that* tired.

Ignoring fits in my house doesn't "work" because she follows me around and tries to escalate things if I totally ignore her. :shrug I guess other kids didn't think of that? I don't know. I always wonder what disengagement looks like with normal people. With me, it looks like a locked door. If she starts trying to disrespect my body or our property, I tell her she needs to leave and I do lock the door if she doesn't stay out until calm.

I don't think these totally prevent tantrums but they lessen them and then at least I feel like I'm being composed, that there are consequences she can learn from (you don't do that to people and stay in the same room with them), and yet, I am not being unreasonable. Which is what I want.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Her son has turned into a little tyrant and you want her to "baby" him some more? No wonder AP parents get bad raps!

She is doing no one a favor by encouraging him to act this way.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

My son is also 4.5 and into the drama.







I say/do different things based on the situation.

"I will be glad to listen when your voice is calm like mine."

When he was throwing a kicking on the floor screaming tantrum, I was so surprised I laughed (to be fair, it was his first real TANTRUM and he was 4.3 at the time.) Then I gave him tips, which started him laughing.

We negotiate but negotiations are closed to people who are yelling or screaming. So if he is upset about a perceived injustice, I will offer, "Would you like to negotiate?" That is enough of a reminder for him to calm down and talk with me. In the waffle instance, we would probably negotiate something like him eating those waffles and then making them the way he wanted the next day so that we don't waste food. Or it could be me eating those waffles ('cause I am less particular) and making a new one for him.

I also turn off the TV when he is yelling at me as "I see the TV is causing you to yell at your mum. Oh, no..." Most of our battles revolve around the TV and I want to be rid of it but...we both enjoy watching TV, too.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


> I have to say, this doesn't fit with my vision of AP. This sounds like CIO for the older set, and doesn't feel gentle to me. The basic idea is the same as CIO: ignore the crying and it will eventually stop. Sure, but at what cost? It isn't teaching the child a better way to communicate, it's only teaching them that their needs will not be met unless they're expressed in a way that meets adult approval. The child may be "demanding" a new waffle, but the adult is also demanding that the child speak in a certain way. The adult is doing exactly what they're asking the child NOT to do! I think the only way to get them to speak the way you'd like is to model it, yes, over and over again.


I think at age 4-5 we've sort of moved out of AP and moved into GD haven't we?

Respectfully, I think you need to realize that some of us have children who operate differently than your child(ren). If I do what you're suggesting, my child escalates and the behavior is reinforced. Each of my children are parented a little differently because they are individuals and they don't all respond and react identically to the same situations.

The OP mentions that he only does this at home, which indicates that he does have some degree of control over it. I wouldn't expect it out of a 2 or 3 yo, but expecting a 5 (or almost 5) yo to express themselves with some degree of calmness and respect is not terrible or horrible. I'm not talking about perfect, adult behavior. But falling down screaming, thrashing, crying to the point of hyperventilation over something as simple as a breakfast request just doesn't fly in this household. There are more people living here than just my 5 yo. She is not allowed to make the home environment miserable for the other 4 people living here, period. The behavior is modeled when I don't fly off the handle and yell back when she starts up with the drama and tantrums, or when I politely ask her to put her shoes away or take her dishes to the sink or to please stop making that noise or whatever.

They're going to go out into the world an interact with playmates, classmates, peers, teachers, etc etc etc. Frankly, I think NOT teaching them to word requests respectfully and calmly does them a huge disservice. Again, I'm not saying that we need to expect perfect, adult behavior out of a 5 yo kid--rather working with them towards responsible, respectful adult behavior as a long-term goal.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Look, if I ignore my own needs for some semblance of peace, order, and respect, eventually I'll snap and there will be blood on the floor. Just the way I am....so in order for there to be peace in my home, for all concerned, the kids HAVE to learn to behave.

Parenting does not mean submerging yourself and your needs in your children so completely you are devastated when they grow up. It means teaching your kids to respect you and themselves. If you have no self-respect, you can't expect it from your kids either....and no-one needs their very own mama doormat.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

I guess I see AP simply as respectful parenting, and I don't think it should stop when the children are older. I think many posters have assumed that I don't advocate teaching children to use respectful words to make requests. I do think absolutely they should learn this--but I prefer to teach it by modeling patience, compassion, and empathy. It's also been suggested that I'm letting my kids walk all over me, or that I'm ignoring my own needs in trying to meet theirs. I disagree. I think it's possible for everyone's needs to matter. They don't all get met all the time, but they do matter. Everyone's feelings matter too. When they're upset, it may not be something *I* would be upset over, but that doesn't mean their feelings aren't real.

FWIW, I have seen empathy work with children of all ages who are anywhere from mildly to wildly upset (and adults too). My kids are probably not especially different than any of yours. No, they're not perfect...but they're not "little tyrants" and I doubt OP's son is, either.

I'm guessing this is going to be an "agree to disagree" case here since I seem to be the only one who thinks it's okay and even downright helpful to empathize with an upset child.

ETA: In response to GoBecGo, it has never taken me even NEAR 50 minutes to empathize with my kids about anything, whether it's an improperly cut sandwich or something major. Empathy takes much less time than a full-blown tantrum, that's for sure! I also don't believe that kids need us to teach them a scale of severity when it comes to their own feelings by ignoring them if they don't fit our personal estimation of being worth the time it takes to consider them; I think they get it, especially if you help them by empathizing. My son knows the difference because when I empathize I'm helping him interpret his feelings, and not all feelings are equally "tragic." I would never describe his feelings about a mis-cut sandwich as "devastated" because that's not what's going on. I would say he's "disappointed," and he gets it that it doesn't need to ruin our whole day.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> It sounds to me like he continues to scream because he doesn't feel heard, especially if you are turning off the TV (why do this? what does it have to do with the issue at hand?) or leaving the room. When he begins to get upset, can you "translate" his screams for him by making empathy guesses: "Oh, you sound really sad! Are you upset because you didn't get what you wanted? It sounds like you're disappointed that your breakfast wasn't the way you were expecting. It can be really disappointing when we think we're going to get something and it doesn't happen. Do you want to tell me what you'd like me to do differently next time?" I'm not saying that you have to bring him a new breakfast or do over whatever was done wrong. But you can let him know that you hear his disappointment and would like him to let you know how it could be better next time.
> 
> ...


Yeah....what she said.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Her son has turned into a little tyrant and you want her to "baby" him some more? No wonder AP parents get bad raps!
> 
> She is doing no one a favor by encouraging him to act this way.


Wow--you really misunderstood my words! To be clear: I never said to "baby" him; I suggested she empathize with his feelings. The two things are truly not related. I didn't suggest that she should encourage the behavior; I said that she could "translate" it for him into words that are more acceptable.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> ETA: In response to GoBecGo, it has never taken me even NEAR 50 minutes to empathize with my kids about anything, whether it's an improperly cut sandwich or something major. Empathy takes much less time than a full-blown tantrum, that's for sure! I also don't believe that kids need us to teach them a scale of severity when it comes to their own feelings by ignoring them if they don't fit our personal estimation of being worth the time it takes to consider them; I think they get it, especially if you help them by empathizing. My son knows the difference because when I empathize I'm helping him interpret his feelings, and not all feelings are equally "tragic." I would never describe his feelings about a mis-cut sandwich as "devastated" because that's not what's going on. I would say he's "disappointed," and he gets it that it doesn't need to ruin our whole day.


Yes, i wasn't referring to you, i was referring to me. MY child WILL continue to tantrum and dramatise for 50mins if you sit down to empathise with her. MY child DOES escalate as far as she can during a tantrum if you sit and engage with her, it's like she sees it as a contest "I am angry!" "i hear and see that you are angry!" "no, i am REALLY ANGRY" "i'm so sorry, i see that, i see how angry and frustrated you are" "NO you don't understand, i am SO SO FURIOUS AND SO ANGRY I WILL BREAK THIS TOY" "i'm so sorry, you're so angry you lashed out, you must be feeling terrible" "YOU HAVE NO IDEA, I AM HITTING YOU NOW!" and so on. You cannot empathise with a person who is determined to be feeling worse than you could ever understand. She WILL describe devastation because her sandwich is mis-cut and she DOES blow things entirely out of proportion given half a chance. She comes out with insane things (she once fell on the stairs and hurt her foot then ran into the room DH and i were in and told me DH just hit her on her foot! She has also told me her friend told her "i will steal all your toys so you have nothing and then i will break them all" - this friend has developmental delay and was totally non-verbal at the time. She's a story-teller, fiction writing is in the genes). I have seen her get so upset she is gagging with her father, because it was raining and he offered her a different (waterproof) jacket than she wanted and he tried to empathise. I guess your kid and my kid are very different. My kid responds best to a very low key "yeah, that's a bit annoying, oh well, never mind" and disengagement. I don't believe i am effectively CIOing her. I believe i am parenting the child in front of me.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> ETA: In response to GoBecGo, it has never taken me even NEAR 50 minutes to empathize with my kids about anything, whether it's an improperly cut sandwich or something major. Empathy takes much less time than a full-blown tantrum, that's for sure! I also don't believe that kids need us to teach them a scale of severity when it comes to their own feelings by ignoring them if they don't fit our personal estimation of being worth the time it takes to consider them; I think they get it, especially if you help them by empathizing. My son knows the difference because when I empathize I'm helping him interpret his feelings, and not all feelings are equally "tragic." I would never describe his feelings about a mis-cut sandwich as "devastated" because that's not what's going on. I would say he's "disappointed," and he gets it that it doesn't need to ruin our whole day.


Not the OP, but I have been following this thread with interest because my DS (5) is an intense kid full of drama. He can easily ruin an entire morning or more and meltdown for hours. Even after the meltdown has passed, it can be re-triggered for another intense round. I can empathize. I can offer support. I can verbalize what he is feeling. And yet, he will carry on. Some kids are just that intense, even when perspective is modeled. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Slow down the process and start with empathy, without going into reassurances that it's a simple fix. If you're telling him that you can call back, that it's a simple fix, that once he calms down you'll dial--then you're not hearing his upset. In fact you're basically telling him that his feelings aren't valid at all. Give ONLY empathy, until he feels heard: "OH NO! You really wanted to talk to Papa, and I hung up before you got to! That's so disappointing!" Repeat some version of this until he calms down. There's no need to "fix" the problem until he's sure you heard him! Once he's calm, you can ask if he'd like to hear some solutions--or if you think he's ready, simply say that you're willing to call back if he'd still like a chance to talk.
> 
> Of course, if this is a common scene you could avoid it by asking, before you hang up, if DS would like to talk with his dad. Or check in with DS before you even call, so you can let DH know that when you're done DS would like to talk.


Most days recently I have felt like I was walking on eggshells to avoid a blowup. Maybe it is common sense to you, but it seems really un-intuitive and exhausting to me to check in with DS (and DD because she mirrors everything DS does) about every. single. thing.

LemonPie, I also share your goal, but how to do you get there? It feels like I repeat these phrases all day long with no changes in behavior. I need new tools.

• We do not hit. Hitting hurts. If you want what she has offer to trade or ask for a turn.

• I will not listen when you talk (i.e. scream or shrill whining) to me that way. Are you trying to ask for what you need?

• We do not complain. Ask for what you need/need to change.

• Spitting is gross. Do not spit. We don't spit when frustrated. I will listen when you want to talk.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LemonPie*
> 
> The OP mentions that he only does this at home, which indicates that he does have some degree of control over it. I wouldn't expect it out of a 2 or 3 yo, but expecting a 5 (or almost 5) yo to express themselves with some degree of calmness and respect is not terrible or horrible. I'm not talking about perfect, adult behavior. But falling down screaming, thrashing, crying to the point of hyperventilation over something as simple as a breakfast request just doesn't fly in this household. There are more people living here than just my 5 yo. She is not allowed to make the home environment miserable for the other 4 people living here, period. The behavior is modeled when I don't fly off the handle and yell back when she starts up with the drama and tantrums, or when I politely ask her to put her shoes away or take her dishes to the sink or to please stop making that noise or whatever.
> 
> They're going to go out into the world an interact with playmates, classmates, peers, teachers, etc etc etc. Frankly, I think NOT teaching them to word requests respectfully and calmly does them a huge disservice. Again, I'm not saying that we need to expect perfect, adult behavior out of a 5 yo kid--rather working with them towards responsible, respectful adult behavior as a long-term goal.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Yes, i wasn't referring to you, i was referring to me. MY child WILL continue to tantrum and dramatise for 50mins if you sit down to empathise with her. MY child DOES escalate as far as she can during a tantrum if you sit and engage with her, it's like she sees it as a contest. . .My kid responds best to a very low key "yeah, that's a bit annoying, oh well, never mind" and disengagement. I don't believe i am effectively CIOing her. I believe i am parenting the child in front of me.


Oh my goodness, did you give birth to my daughter's long lost twin? Can I say that I empathize with YOU? Ha ha. But yes, this is exactly what will happen here. If I engage, even slightly, my little drama-queen has an audience to perform for. It sounds cold of me, but it's really what it is. I've caught her watching herself cry in the mirror. Case in point: One night she was unhappy at bedtime and in the throes of a full-fledged tantrum (because she had to sleep in her own bed and not in her brother's room). DH went in to sit with her and try to get her calm. You'd have thought there was a massacre going on in her bedroom the way she was carrying on. I finally went in and asked him to just step out and disengage, which he did. The tantrum was over in under two minutes.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy*
> 
> I have been following this thread with interest because my DS (5) is an intense kid full of drama. He can easily ruin an entire morning or more and meltdown for hours. Even after the meltdown has passed, it can be re-triggered for another intense round. I can empathize. I can offer support. I can verbalize what he is feeling. And yet, he will carry on. Some kids are just that intense, even when perspective is modeled.
> 
> ...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Just to keep things interesting, my DD responds best to a mix of the two ways of handling things. If she doesn't respond right away to suggestions for solutions, I can get her to share what she wants/needs by going away for a bit and then coming back and cuddling her for a bit and asking again. For whatever reason, she needs a minute or two of yelling about the universe before she can start expressing what's wrong with it, and that minute can't happen with me right there.

Of course, she's two, so I expect it'll change.

Anyway, OP, it seems like you've gotten a number of things to try, and hopefully one of them will let your ds have less frustrations in life.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?

One thing I forgot to mention which is really key, is that the empathy must be given solely for the sake of connection. When I give empathy to someone who's upset, my goal is not to avoid a tantrum but to deepen my understanding of what they're going through. Sometimes I have to think a bit to figure out exactly *what* they might be feeling and why. My kids for sure can tell when I'm "phoning it in" and not really feeling empathy toward them--which lets them know they should SAY IT LOUDER because I obviously didn't hear them.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Ok, so my 2 cents which is probably worth less than 1 cent. LOL

So this is multi faceted, so please don't get frustrated. Coping before an incident, during, and after...

Before, with the waffles...

I know TV is supposedly another thread, and in a sense it is (my kids watch alot so don't think I'm anti-tv, PBS is my friend







), but, engage him in any activity possible. So for instance, that morning, before making breakfast it would have been "Alright kiddo, breakfast time, come on, let's go. Now, what do you want? Oh, waffles. OK now how many do you want? One, OK. Now, look they popped up!!! OK what do you want on them? Nothing, OK. Which fork do you want?" You get the picture. I'm a huge advocate for choices and you will see in most posts I make about tantrums that is my FIRST principle. Offer CHOICES, lots of them, as many as possible. The more a child feels in control of the more they feel in control of themselves. So choices whenever possible. This would NOT work for the phone issue, trust me BTDT, I've had a child insist that she did NOT want to talk to dh and then as soon as I hung up all I heard was "I JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING I NEEDED TO SAY!!!!!!" Not fun, and there are those times when you will hang up not even realizing that the child wanted to speak so this doesn't apply to tantrums for those things. This works for kids throwing fits at the table about food, utensils etc. throwing fits about clothes, or toys, or anything that a choice is possible.

During....

So, it's a busy morning and all you want is to get him fed and ready to go. So you didn't have the opportunity to give choices or he decides that he doesn't want to make a choice and then cries about the choice you make for him (happens all the time with my 4 yr. old). A fit ensues. Now is the time to (guess what??) OFFER CHOICES. "Oh, so you only wanted one without syrup? I'm sorry, well, would you like me to take one of these off? I know it will still have syrup, but at least it's only one. AAAHH, OK well would you rather have a banana or one waffle with syrup? OK so here's your banana". Yup, again choices. LOVE THEM!! I don't know, I think it's because they have to STOP and THINK which is completely impossible to do while flailing your arms and screaming, but it WORKS!! At least most the time it works. Sometimes it doesn't (why can't anything be simple). So in the times it doesn't work...." OK I get that your mad but you know how to use your words, so you can either control yourself (wording is important here, you want him to control "himself" that gives him the power) or I'm going to walk to my room until you are ready to talk" (ooops, that's another choice, but yup that's what I say, lots and lots and lots around this house). Then simply walk away. With the phone, "Oh I'm sorry, you wanted to talk to daddy? Ok well, do you want me to call him back now or would you like time to calm down first? OK well if you don't choose then I'm going to choose that you need to calm down." See, he refused to make a choice, so you make it for him and inform him which choice you will choose giving him the opportunity to make the choice one last time.

After...

Of course discipline isn't complete without giving the child the tools to succeed. So after every incident you go over the words that he could have used (yes in the first few days you will be repeating this ad naseum, I'm not sure if dd got it because she really understood or she just got tired of hearing it). For instance, "you know, if you would have just politely asked me to call daddy back I would have. What words could you have used?" Of course don't lecture, it is amazing to watch my child when I talk to them, I can always tell when I've gone from discussing it with them to lecturing. Have you ever watched Charlie Brown? Do you ever look at the kids during class, while the teacher is saying "wah wah wah wah wah". That is the look I get from mine when I go from discussing to lecturing. And as I have to remind dh frequently, it doesn't make it a discussion if you only ask yes or no questions, you must ask open ended questions. Questions for which yes or no are not options as answers.

I hope this helps some. DD's therapist had me in training for months before we got alot of this implemented and really got into the flow of it so don't get frustrated, just hang in there. Worst case scenario, you know that he isn't going to be throwing a fit at 13 because you gave him too MANY waffles, now too few and you may have an eruption, but at 13, with boys, there's no such thing as too much food.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention which is really key, is that the empathy must be given solely for the sake of connection. When I give empathy to someone who's upset, my goal is not to avoid a tantrum but to deepen my understanding of what they're going through. Sometimes I have to think a bit to figure out exactly *what* they might be feeling and why. My kids for sure can tell when I'm "phoning it in" and not really feeling empathy toward them--which lets them know they should SAY IT LOUDER because I obviously didn't hear them.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

I agree with Petie; choices are KEY and the more you can offer, the better. We do a lot of exactly what she described and it works very well here.

ETA: My son (4.5 yrs old) is not allowed to watch TV in the morning until he is ready to leave. This includes eating, dressing, shoes, brushing his teeth, and washing his face. When he asks if he may watch a show, I ask if he's finished these tasks. If he answers no to any of these, I then ask him, "What do you think?" or "Can you watch a show?" The impetus is on him to complete his tasks and if he is finished with them early enough, then he may watch a show while I get ready. Sometimes he hurries, sometimes he doesn't; it's *his* choice and not *my* problem.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?


I think that there is a sub-set of the population--maybe 10 - 20%? that has significantly different motivations or modus operandi than the rest. I have two kids that respond well to empathy in certain situations, but not in tantrum-mode. The first one likes to debate, she likes to keep the interaction alive at all costs. She's not going to calm down if that means a less intense interaction. The second is very single-minded and she really does not give a hoot how I feel she wants what she wants, period. She will not be happy until she GETS IT. Period.

The first has her connection with the argument, and is not motivated to seek a different connection. My husband is like this too and it's awful.

The second is not looking for connection (I am this way, LOL!). She is looking FOR THE WAFFLE WITHOUT SYRUP and obviously you are not empathizing enough if you have not gotten her the WAFFLE WITHOUT SYRUP yet. LOL. I can laugh because I'm so much that way. Screw empathy, I want it done NOW.

If you're familiar with personality typing: Husband and DD1 are both ESTP. I am an XNTP. DD2 is 18 months old so we won't put her in a box just yet, LOL!

Now, of course we practice empathy in our home. Empathy does have a great effect most of the time, in regular interactions. But when the drama starts, emotional connection is just not going to cut it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

It's a hard age.

My son waffles (no pun intended). Up to a point, empathizing and problem-solving work wonders. And choices, when they're available (sometimes I just cut the toast without asking triangles or rectangles).

Past that point, empathizing just makes it worse for him. Then it's time to disengage. I also sometimes say "I am getting really frustrated with this and I need to calm down." Then I go in my room. Sometimes he comes to see if I'm okay. And sometimes that escalates things too.

It's the same thing with distraction - sometimes, it's great. Sometimes he realizes it's a tactic and freaks out more.

One thing that has started to work lately with my son (he's just over 5) is to drop down to his eye level and say "We have a problem I guess. What do you think is a good way to solve it?" But I'm not sure this would have worked 7 months ago.

It sounds to me like you have one tactic - the room one - that works some of the time. I hate to have no easy answers for you but I think just keep trying things, and walk away when you have to. I would give him a few more months to slowly freak out less before worrying too much.


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## lovingly (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello Kindacrunchy! I've been through that. You need to play a deaf ear to your child and he needs to know that YOU decide what he should eat, and especially because you are the one preparing him his meals.

If you decide to continue placating him or giving in to his demands, he will know just what to do to get whatever he wants. Children learn very early that adults can be manipulated if you allow him to learn that.

Tell him gently and firmly that he has to eat whatever's served to him because you have nothing else to cook, or you don't have the extra time to cook again. Or else he has a choice of going hungry. If he starts throwing himself on the floor, walk away but be near enough to make sure he is safe. He can repeat the scene several times but bear with them and definitely do not reward him during this period. He will soon get the message.

Alternatively, you can challenge him. See who finishes his waffles faster. He may just forget what he was complaining about and finish everything!

Optionally, you may want to draw a healthy menu for Mondays to Fridays, and tell him what he can expect the next time. Involve him in the shopping, and he will be less likely to complain about what's not served to him.

"No child will willingly starve themselves to death."


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> One thing I forgot to mention which is really key, is that the empathy must be given solely for the sake of connection. When I give empathy to someone who's upset, my goal is not to avoid a tantrum but to deepen my understanding of what they're going through. Sometimes I have to think a bit to figure out exactly *what* they might be feeling and why. My kids for sure can tell when I'm "phoning it in" and not really feeling empathy toward them--which lets them know they should SAY IT LOUDER because I obviously didn't hear them.


Well, this is obviously affected by the adult's interaction, so all the times I didn't deal with her exactly right I made it worse, but a lot of the time my 7 year old child just wants what she wants. When I empathize with her, it just seems to piss her off more. Maybe I don't do it right, but she basically doesn't want to hear it, she doesn't believe it, she honestly believes that if I did feel for her, I'd give her what she wants. And to make matters worse, we apparently don't communicate well because she will interpret a conversation differently from me, and claim I said the exact opposite of what I did say when I know I said it several times just to make sure she understood.

But I guess part of what giving empathy means in our situation is that I recognize that she's not going to accept it from me until she's had her time to be angry with me first. I don't know.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> nak
> 
> ...


THIS! Yes yes yes...and I giggled at cutting the toast. My four year old is exactly this way. It feels great to know I'm not alone in four year old drama land.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> I'm pretty sure the harm of CIO results from the baby being unable to find you, unable to communicate its need and unable to do anything to help itself. the same definitely cannot be said for my 4yo! and tbh i don't want her to realise i will listen for 50mins how heartbroken she was that i cut her toast into squares rather than triangles, i want her to realise it's a very minor thing in the grand scheme, and eat her toast.
> 
> ...


Yes, I totally get and understand this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> I have to say, this doesn't fit with my vision of AP. This sounds like CIO for the older set, and doesn't feel gentle to me. The basic idea is the same as CIO: ignore the crying and it will eventually stop. Sure, but at what cost? It isn't teaching the child a better way to communicate, *it's only teaching them that their needs will not be met unless they're expressed in a way that meets adult approval. * The child may be "demanding" a new waffle, but the adult is also demanding that the child speak in a certain way. The adult is doing exactly what they're asking the child NOT to do! I think the only way to get them to speak the way you'd like is to model it, yes, over and over again.


nak

IMO, what I've underlined above from your post, lizajane, is perfectly acceptable. And it IS teaching the child to communicate, becaus eyou're not indulging/rewarding him for communicating in a rude, ineffective way. That's just my take. You tolerate and indulge negative behavior, you're reinforcing it IMO.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it's good to empathize with them, but you can't go on and on and feed the drama. I try to let them know they're heard, and then disengage (as much as possible if they are leg-hanger-onners, and yes my older one was.) I at least try to emotionally disengage at that point. What's worked for me is to let them know I'm on their team, so to speak, but then not feed it anymore, just try to behave in as relaxed a way as possible. Gentle and kind, but relaxed. It's kind of like when a toddler falls and then looks to you to see how strongly they should respond to the fall. It's great to let them know you're there for them, but if you act like it was a huge injury when it was just a little fall, you're just feeding the drama. I'm more like, "Oh no, you fell" with a hug. Not rushing to the scene with "Ooooh NO, poor baby! Are you ok??"


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

I think my words are being misunderstood still. I'm going to try again to explain my point of view.

It's clear that the great majority of you involved in this discussion think it is "feeding," "encouraging," and "indulging" bad behavior when I suggest empathizing with an upset child. On the contrary, I've said very clearly that I would not fix the problem for them (in the OP's case, re-doing the waffles) but let them know that I hear them and we could work on solving it together.

From post #8: "When he begins to get upset, can you "translate" his screams for him by making empathy guesses: "Oh, you sound really sad! Are you upset because you didn't get what you wanted? It sounds like you're disappointed that your breakfast wasn't the way you were expecting. It can be really disappointing when we think we're going to get something and it doesn't happen. Do you want to tell me what you'd like me to do differently next time?" I'm not saying that you have to bring him a new breakfast or do over whatever was done wrong. But you can let him know that you hear his disappointment and would like him to let you know how it could be better next time."

Nowhere in there did I say you should rush to the kitchen and make him new waffles. And I tend to give empathy in a calm voice, so it is not the same as running to a hurt toddler and giving them cues that things really are tragic. I want to point out that empathy is not the same as sympathy.

I also don't see how taking a few moments to empathize is a failure to demonstrate self-respect, as has been implied. I think the bolded phrases below model for a child a parent's self-respect.

From post #10: "When it's your turn [to talk], focus on needs and feelings. "*I felt so frustrated this morning* because I wanted to help you but I didn't know how. *I feel yucky when I'm being yelled at*. When I hear yelling I want to cover my ears--and then I feel sad because I can't hear you and help make things better. Now that you've told me what was wrong, I'd like to try again tomorrow because *I want everyone in the family to get their needs met if possible*."

Maybe part of the difference between my perspective and other posters' is that I don't think of my children's behavior as good and bad. It is simply human behavior that is used to meet a need. Yes, some behaviors are ineffective and some of them meet my needs (for calm, love, appreciation) more fully than others. But I don't think my children are trying to "get away with bad behavior" when they lose it over something big or small. I think they're young and inexperienced and need help remembering which behaviors we'd like them to use. In the end, though, *I firmly do not believe that I can control someone else's behavior* (much as I would like to at times!), *only my own*. My children are no exception to that. I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.

I also think that many of you are of the opinion (some have stated so explicitly) that parents must "be in control." I find in our family the dynamic is much more peaceful and respectful if we can use power together rather than the adults exercising power over the children; thus my suggestion that the parent ask the child to express ways that things could be more satisfactory next time round. Sometimes my DS makes requests that I'm not willing to do, for whatever reason (but never because I fear it would "undermine my authority"--I'm always willing to hear new information, including someone's feelings about my decision, and change my mind) and I will say so to him: "I'm not willing to go make you another waffle right now, but [fill in another suggestion that might be acceptable to child]." I don't believe that negotiating is giving away authority, and I do believe that negotiation is a useful skill for my children to learn.

Again, this may be a case of "agree to disagree," because I'm guessing I'm not going to convince you all, and I'm sure not going to stop empathizing with people since my experience has been that it's respectful, fulfilling for both parties, and effective in forging true connection.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*  (*bold italic my response, still having issues. . .)*
> 
> I think my words are being misunderstood still. I'm going to try again to explain my point of view.
> 
> ...


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I thought about this thread yesterday when my DS had a full on temper tantrum. He had a ball that he was tossing in the air. He then started throwing it at the TV. I reminded him not to do that and he turned and threw it at me. Hit me right in the head. I took the ball away.

DS turned into a small puddle of rage on the floor. There was no empathizing with him at this moment. I tried rubbing his back and he kicked me. I know he was absolutely devestated at losing his ball but I was not going to sit next to him and allow him to be violent with me. I removed myself to the kitchen and occasionally called out and reminded him I was near by.

He eventually got up, came in the kitchen and asked for a big hug which I was happy to give him.

But until he got control of himself (and I totally agree that I can't change other people's behavior) he wasn't hearing anything. I strive to be respectful of my son, and I understand his sense of loss was very real. But in this situation, DS did not care one whit that I felt bad about taking his ball.

I think empathy works in many situations. But, it was not working yesterday. And I think that is true of any method we employ with our children. Nothing works 100% of the time-that is why parenting is so hard.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Also, I don't think diffusing the tantrum is always evidence of something "working". It works to make life easier at the moment, but sometimes people need to relieve themselves of their strong emotions. We're not talking about babies here who are crying out of hunger or lonliness, we're talking about kids crying out of dealing with very strong emotions they're new at navigating. I sometimes need a good cry when I'm dealing with strong emotions and they aren't even new for me, and I don''t generally want people to try to stop me from crying when I'm in that place. When I need to let it out, I need to let it out. I do immediately empathize when a tantrum starts, and if that's what the child wants then it's there, but often my older dd (they younger one at least so far at almost 2 doesn't tantrum), just wanted to release steam. I let her know I was there for her and would be ready for her when she was done. After she was done, she wanted to snuggle together, and she got it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Again, this may be a case of "agree to disagree," because I'm guessing I'm not going to convince you all, and I'm sure not going to stop empathizing with people since my experience has been that it's respectful, fulfilling for both parties, and effective in forging true connection.


I think it will have to be. Because we do empathize but what I've said (and many people have said) is that it *does not help our kids past a certain point.* Trust me, I live with my son and care for him and I can tell you that if two sentences of empathy do not work, there is no point in continuing. He does not want a verbal discussion at that point; he's in a more emotional, less language stage of upset and continuing just makes him incredibly angry.

And frankly as an adult I've felt the same way. I don't always want empathy. "My contest is not working right." "You must be so frustrated." Okay but fix the darn thing, or else tell me you can't. Don't empathize.

If it works for yours, that's great. If it works as a nanny/caregiver/teacher/whatever - that's great too; but the relationship is different and kids will often meltdown more with their parents at home (or out) than they do for other caregivers. *There is not always a one-size-fits-all solution to parenting problems.*


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LemonPie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Lemon Pie,

I'm sorry my words have come across as un-empathetic to you. It was not my intention to imply that "you're not doing it right." I merely wanted to add to what I had already said so that I could be clear about what empathizing looks like in my family. I also never said that it's "*UNBELIEVABLY CRAZY that a child might operate this way*." I said that I've never experienced it and I was genuinely wondering if there's something else going on for the child which could keep them from connecting with a parent, which I think is a good question to ask since the point of this thread is to brainstorm coping methods for dealing with tantrums. I'm sorry you found that offensive--my intention was to gain more information so I can understand what might be going on in that situation.

I'm not sure where you read that I "*continue to insist that empathizing will neutralize the tantrum because then the child will feel 'heard' and 'understood'." * I did say that empathy can often head off a tantrum, but I do agree, once the tantrum is going empathy will not "neutralize" it. But what I am insisting is that giving empathy does not equal encouraging tantrums. I don't see empathy as a "reward for bad behavior." Again: I'm not against teaching children to speak respectfully and calmly. My methods are different; I believe they will learn it if I remind them of how to do it (in this case by "translating" for them), rather than telling them that their current words and actions are "unacceptable."

Actually, in my last post I was not addressing the issue of kids whose parents say they don't respond well to empathy in the throes of a tantrum (though I did say in an earlier post that the point of my empathizing during an upset is not to solve the problem or even discuss the problem at that moment, but to connect with the child). From post #31: "Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine." This was meant to read as "I get it that your kids don't respond the way mine do." I guess it wasn't clear--sometimes I think something is so clear in my head and I don't realize it's not clear to others.

*In my last post, I was addressing those who think that empathizing is feeding, encouraging and indulging bad behavior.* I explained why I don't believe that is true. I also addressed why I don't believe empathizing is disregarding my own desire for respect and love; and how the power dynamic works best in our family. I'm offering support for my point of view, which has been roundly criticized by others participating in this discussion. I thought I was clear in my last post that this is how things work best for MY family and how things have been in MY experience. I find it useful to hear what other families do that works for them, to see how it could work for our family. And in my understanding, this is what motivated the OP to start the thread in the first place.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Lemon Pie,
> 
> ...


But it isn't about power for us. It is simply an ineffective way of dealing with the situation for my child if i empathise. It isn't about making her talk nicely or meet my need to be loved (!? not really doing parenting for THAT, would be a cold and disappointing trip if i was with my kid LOL!). It's about there is a person lying screaming and crying and gagging on the floor, how can this be remedied? I guess another way of looking at it is that out of empathy i do what is needful for my child to feel ok again. Even though what i do doesn't entail a lot of what looks like active empathising at the time. Maybe some kids really DO have a massive tantrum because they aren't feeling connected with their caregiver, but mine has them because she was given the wrong shoes, her toast is the wrong shape, she has to have her hair combed (she has full rights over cut and style, i am in charge of care) and or etc. (i could go ON and on, lol). So in the moment she doesn't want or need to "reconnect" with me, we are not disconnected. She is upset. A lot of the time one can't even fix the problem by doing what she wanted first time - in the waffles situation my DD would want the breakfast how she wanted it FIRST TIME, she doesn't want a do-over, she wants a time machine.

As to the previous post:

Quote:


> I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.


i am a bit baffled by that. Am i to assume my child ENJOYS screaming, sobbing, gagging fits on the floor? That she likes to feel like that and be in the throes of that? Because she doesn't seem like she does. I try to help her be calm and have perspective because it means she doesn't have to go on being terribly terribly upset for hours for something which needn't be a big deal, not because being so upset is "undesirable behaviour" for me and me alone. Emotional resilience isn't a tool to make OTHER people happy, it's a means to negotiating the world without feeling like one has been torn to shreds every day. I'm glad you feel you've found a way to keep a happy relationship and help your children grow. Please don't assume the rest of us have lesser motivations, or lesser results, because we have different methods.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

It seems like no matter what I say it will continue to be perceived as an attack on others' parenting. I'm not sure how to be more clear than my last post, that this is my experience and I understand that your experiences are different.

The OP asked for advice on coping with tantrums. I gave a different perspective than others and in post #9, OP did say "i do think you are right with the not feeling heard part. he often will say 'you didn't let me talk.'" I took this to mean she wanted more dialogue, so I supported my perspective with more information. I *think* my last post made clear that I understand that you feel differently, and your family is different than mine.

It's clear to me now that my perspective isn't welcome in this discussion. I wish you all the best of luck in dealing with this issue.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> It seems like no matter what I say it will continue to be perceived as an attack on others' parenting. I'm not sure how to be more clear than my last post, that this is my experience and I understand that your experiences are different.
> 
> ...


I don't think that we are feeling attacked... I just think a lot of people are pointing out that the empathizing with a tantrum can be really problematic with some children. Not empathy per se! Nobody is saying, "Empathy doesn't work, period, I don't listen to how people feel." We were just pointing out that while it works with some kids, it doesn't with others, to diffuse a tantrum. I certainly hope it works with the OP's son.

But simply saying that your advice may not work is not feeling attacked or thinking you aren't welcome. You later posted that it's always worked for you. Great! It hasn't worked for me with my kids, not *in the tantrum mode*. I do think that all children need empathy even when it's not verbalized. Nobody's suggesting not to be empathetic in general, LOL. Obviously... this is the GD community.

We are just saying, yes, might work, don't worry if it doesn't.

Quote:


> *In my last post, I was addressing those who think that empathizing is feeding, encouraging and indulging bad behavior.* I explained why I don't believe that is true.


You mean, with 100% of kids, 100% of the time? Surely you're not prepared to make a statement like that. And a lot of us have the experience that with a certain type of child, at a certain time, this really can feed or encourage the counter-productive behavior.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Liza, just a few points

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> My son is just about a month older than yours, and we deal with this sort of situation all the time. They're still young, still learning how to navigate in a world where they often don't have power or choice! The only difference is, my son doesn't need to escalate his behavior because rather than seeing it as a power struggle or thinking of him as being manipulative, I make sure I've heard clearly what the upset is about, and give him the tools to express himself in a different way.
> 
> I see a lot of PPs have advised not "giving in" to the tantrum. In my experience, this only makes a stressful situation worse. *Basically you're telling an upset child that you don't care about what they're crying about, that their feelings and needs are less important than your need to "control" your child's behavior. * I don't see my methods as "giving in." I see them as working together to meet everyone's needs so we can all be less stressed and have a better time of it.


I found all of this a little problematic but particularly the bolded. It does depend on the definition of "giving in" but I almost never give in to tantrums in the sense of trying to fix them or continuing to talk when it's not productive...and I don't think it gives the message that I don't care about them at all. I find it a bit upsetting that you would leap to that conclusion. It's great that your perception is that it works for your child, but I can assure you that mine just wants to, as someone said, roll the time machine back, and none of the empathy in the world is going to help with that at that point.

And sure I'd say "tomorrow I'll try to remember to ask before the syrup," but I won't treat the syrup as a huge big deal, no. I do believe part of my role as a parent is to give consistent, caring signals about what is a big deal and what is not, while still respecting that my child's emotions and views are different.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Maybe focus more on hearing him, rather than on talking with him about it? Sometimes when I want to have a talk with my son at a time when emotions aren't running so high, he thinks he's "in trouble." When I asked him once what that means, he said "You're going to talk and talk." So, he thinks a talk is being in trouble and thus doesn't want to participate.
> 
> ...


Again, same thing. This is really judgmental language. I do this with whining ("I can't hear that tone of voice") and I don't think we're modelling withdrawal of love at all. Instead I think it is a healthy boundary. Not appropriate at 18 months, but certainly at 5.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! *I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family*, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention which is really key, is that the empathy must be given solely for the sake of connection. When I give empathy to someone who's upset, my goal is not to avoid a tantrum but to deepen my understanding of what they're going through. Sometimes I have to think a bit to figure out exactly *what* they might be feeling and why. My kids for sure can tell when I'm "phoning it in" and not really feeling empathy toward them--which lets them know they should SAY IT LOUDER because I obviously didn't hear them.


The first bold just makes me laugh. I worked with kids for about that too - and I was such an expert on getting them to sleep! Funny thing how my son goes to bed pronto for sitters - and stays up with me.  But more seriously I don't think conversation goes well when you try to establish your expertise as a nanny in the face of kind, plugged-in parents who have said that your approach wouldn't work for their kids.

Hopefully by sharing this you won't be so frustrated with threads in the future. I certainly did not get from your posts that you were talking only about your family; instead I got the impression that you really think you're right -- and I wouldn't say you're wrong overall, but I almost want to film my son's and my next conflict/meltdown for you and empathize with him just so you can see what happens.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.

And by responding in that window between fine and tantrum, hopefully averting the total break down into tantrum.

Ｌｉｚａjane, please let me know if I'm totally wrong!


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

My dd's been doing the same thing. She'll be 5 in January. Today I asked her if she wanted a whole pb sandwich or a half (usually she only wants half). She said whole. I even double checked "you sure you want a whole sandwich? She was very clear. Out comes the whole sandwich to the table and she FLIES OFF THE HANDLE. Crying and flailing and doing the "poor me!" routine. Seriously, it's half a sandwich too much. If you don't want it all, don't eat it all! She starts telling me that I misunderstood her and it's all my fault.

My routine response lately has been "you have X choice or Y choice. Pick from those." So for instance with the sandwich situation "you can eat half of it, or you can eat all of it, but please calm down and pick one." *sigh* She also had a fit today because she wanted me to help her take a shower today (she is capable of doing it herself) while I was busy with something else... my reply was "ok, well, I'm busy right now, so you can either wait til I'm not busy or you can do it yourself, but those are your available choices."

I see it as her trying to figure out where her control is and where the boundaries are... just like she did as a small toddler, but now she has a more sophisticated vocabulary to go along with it.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> I worked with kids for about that too - and I was such an expert on getting them to sleep! Funny thing how my son goes to bed pronto for sitters - and stays up with me.


Can I just thank you for saying this? I wish it were in your signature, heh. My pet peeve is people who think they know about kids because they were nannies. They may know about a lot of kid-related stuff the rest of us have to learn from scratch... but it's the EASY stuff, somehow. The hard stuff, the babysitter rarely deals with. Even the nanny. There was a great article I read about a woman who'd trained tens if not hundreds of children to use the toilet. She had a 100% record for training before 2 1/2, as they were in her care throughout the day.

She had her own two close together, though... and she had two in diapers for two years (one ending after the age of three). The nanny curse, LOL! Except, not laughing. Eeek!


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice? I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation? Wow.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
> 
> I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right. Thank you.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Thank you Lisajane for your words above. Apology accepted.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice? I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation? Wow.
> 
> ...


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LemonPie*
> you made sweeping statements like the one below:
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, this isn't exactly what I'd call a "sweeping statement." I said I've never seen it in my experience, which includes time as a nanny. That's a statement of fact.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


> I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.


My understanding was that the OP and a lot of us deal with sudden, flash-flood type tantrum situations that just appear out of nowhere. It's pretty uncanny, in fact, LOL! So while this is great, as many have noted, for a rational child, it does not apply when you have a 3 - 6 year old creating drama literally at the drop of the hat.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice? I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation? Wow.


"no longer"

"shouldn't ever"

These are all emotionally-charged, absolute phrases that I did not use anywhere in my posts. My posts were not about you, or whether or not you should or could offer advice. My posts--and most of the posts here, if you re-read them--are about the specific advice you offered, and how it may not apply, based on the poster's personal experience.

I suggested that nannies may feel their experience applies to parenting much more than it actually does. That doesn't mean they can't join in the discussion, just that nannying experience isn't always relevant. You think it is. Okay. We disagree. :shrug:

I think that somewhere along the line, you felt like you were being attacked, and you are responding emotionally to that.

Nobody is disregarding your experience, or suggesting that you not comment. Your experience, like mine, is what it is. I thought we were all sharing our own perspectives and experiences here. Yes, people disagree with language that implies that expressed empathy can always work, because "always" is a very strong word.

That is okay, they can disagree without you feeling like they want you off the board, right?

Don't take it so personally and you will see it's really an ongoing discussion here, where everyone is welcome.


----------



## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


So now you're going to argue semantics? Okay, I'll admit the term sweeping was perhaps over-the-top.

HOWEVER, the point I was trying to make is this: You posted it to counter the many of us who said your suggestion just simply doesn't work for our kids. Really, to me it seemed like you literally didn't believe us, and that was further reinforced by the fact that you then suggested that something was WRONG with the child or the parent-child relationship because YOU had never seen it.

I think most of us were just looking for some concession that mothers are the experts on their own children. I don't CARE if you were a nanny or a rocket scientist or an an astronaut. At the end of the day, it still comes down to the fact that YOU DON'T LIVE WITH MY KID.


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## duckmom (Mar 29, 2007)

lizajane30, I hear you and I agree with you. I think it's unfortunate that some on this thread are feeling judged or belittled, because I strongly suspect that is not the spirit in which your words are intended. I found Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn to be a great resource for this type of concept, and I highly recommend it.

This line of thinking can certainly call into question some of what we've been doing, as well as what was done to us when we were that age. It is unconventional (in a good way!), which is why I think we tend to get defensive.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *duckmom*
> 
> lizajane30, I hear you and I agree with you. I think it's unfortunate that some on this thread are feeling judged or belittled, because I strongly suspect that is not the spirit in which your words are intended. I found Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn to be a great resource for this type of concept, and I highly recommend it.
> 
> This line of thinking can certainly call into question some of what we've been doing, as well as what was done to us when we were that age. It is unconventional (in a good way!), which is why I think we tend to get defensive.


Actually, I'd guess that most of the people on this thread have read Unconditional Parenting, Punished by Rewards and at least a few of Kohn's articles.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

"teach them that they can't talk that way" Ouch. Tantrums are NOT teaching moments. The time before a tantrum (for those who are lucky enough to get a bit of warning (more on that later)) can be a teaching moment, but only if you actually teach. Ignoring is not teaching, ignoring is ignoring and ignoring in the pre-tantrum time (for those who get that warning) can actually precipitate the tantrum.

So, for me, for any number of people that have shared their experiences, the things that help create the longest gap between frustration and tantrum and thus the most space for empathic parenting and solution-finding, are (things to consider, things to try):

everyone, particularly the child having enough sleep

child being fed, particularly with proteins and fats

child having outdoor time

an ordered environment (on a personal note, dd started being frustrated less often literally the day I did a ton of tidying I'd been putting off. clean house, more cooperative toddler, 1, 2,3. and yes, my own reduced stress really contributed.)


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

A point...I've read some of the UP stuff, some of the AP stuff and truthfully have seen a dozen plus parenting fads come and go. No one method fits all kids, let alone all the kids in the same family AND the adult's parenting style at the same time.

And, please realize that having a tantrum, counterintuitively, is tremendously rewarding in and of itself to a child.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fuzzylogic*
> 
> And, please realize that having a tantrum, counterintuitively, is tremendously rewarding in and of itself to a child.


Yep, I've had some girlfriends that would do cartwheels or buy anything if it meant their kids would stop screaming. What does this teach the child? That screaming works just fine for them.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

Actually, not what I meant. All that carrying on releases a goodly amount of endorphins. It is in and of itself rewarding......regardless of parental response. One of the reasons it is hard to extinguish.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I had tantrums through the age of 8, to the point where my mom had me evaluated because of them. (She says I got my own back wtih my older dd, though she didn't have tantrums that long.) I remember the tantrums very well. I felt great AFTER them, because I'd released all the built-up emotion, and it felt good to have that out, but no it did not feel good during them. It was awful and I felt terribly out of control.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

OK, Im trying to get through this thread all the way. But I keep having this image pop into my head.

Anyone see that movie with Uma Thurman called "Motherhood".

I keep having this image of the women in the play ground with their kids, and the one child begins crying in a very whiney, Im just sad sort of way. The mother pulls him infront of her, gets down to his level and starts crying in the EXACT same way. Uma thurmans character is so flabbergasted she doesnt know what to do.

Ok, back to your original programming.


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## duckmom (Mar 29, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
> 
> Actually, I'd guess that most of the people on this thread have read Unconditional Parenting, Punished by Rewards and at least a few of Kohn's articles.


That is generally my default assumption coming into any GD discussion, but the replies I was reading didn't seem like it at all, so I thought I'd put it out there. I guess the UP philosophy resonates so strongly with me that I sometimes lose track of the fact that this isn't true for everyone. Within the UP framework, I totally get where lizajane30 is coming from, and was baffled by the backlash.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Crying and screaming and gagging/vomiting releases endorphins? i did NOT know this!


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LemonPie*
> 
> HOWEVER, the point I was trying to make is this: You posted it to counter the many of us who said your suggestion just simply doesn't work for our kids. Really, to me it seemed like you literally didn't believe us, and that was further reinforced by the fact that you then suggested that something was WRONG with the child or the parent-child relationship because YOU had never seen it.


I want to address this because I'm concerned you still aren't understanding my intent. First, I would like you to notice that my quote begins with my saying that I have heard everyone who said that their kids are not like my kids. *"Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine."* I have been accused several times of being unable to accept that not all kids are like my own, which was confusing and frustrating for me since I thought I had clearly said that I *do* hear that and would like to understand more about it. Hence, the question which was another source of conflict: "I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?"

I want to clarify what I meant when I said "I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?" You've said that you interpreted this to mean I was suggesting that "something was WRONG with the child or the parent-child relationship." This is a complete misunderstanding. I was not suggesting that your child has neurological issues, or that your parenting must be to blame. It was not a suggestion at all--it was a question! What I meant was, perhaps there is a deeper or different need on the child's part which is not being met by empathizing about frustration, or disappointment. Perhaps the child is longing for power, or choice? In those cases, absolutely the parent has way more information than a stranger on a parenting forum. What I meant to ask is, when *you* think about what *your* individual child's needs are in a given situation, what is your feeling as to what your child is needing in order to connect emotionally with you?


----------



## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


OK forgive me, but I have to jump in. I've watched this conversation go in circles and I feel bad for everyone involved including the OP whose questions were lost somewhere in here.

What I see is a language barrier. You are using language that is hurtful. Stating that a child is having problems that keep them from "connecting" or what do they need to "connect emtionally with you" is hurtful. The logical assumption on the part of parents who find emphathy to be less than helpful during a tantrum is that you are saying, "you and your child are not connected" or "your child is not emtionally connected to you".

Perhaps you could find a better way of putting it. The idea that you are trying to get across is getting completely lost in your word choice. Here, let me give it a shot and tell me if it has the same meaning you are looking for...

When your child is feeling overwhelmed by a situation, how do you connect with them?

This statement does not have any assumption that the child and parent are NOT connected, but is a positive statement that you want to know HOW we connect with our children during a tantrum.

Even this....

I have always found that with my children empathizing works, I'm wondering how you connect to your children while they are having a tantrum?

No assumption that connection didn't exist before, during, or after the fact. The statement is simply curiosity about how HOW we connect during a tantrum.

I really was going to ignore this thread, but this same wording of yours keeps coming up. So I figured rather than allow you to keep making the same mistake I would try to politely explain why that statement is so hurtful to some people.


----------



## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

Petie1104, no I don't think those phrases have the same meaning as I intend. Thank you for trying to re-phrase my words.

I really don't see how my words are hurtful. I never stated that a child is "having problems" that are keeping them from connecting; I *asked* if there was a deeper or different need for the child.

Seriously, if I'm "using hurtful language" here, I'm at a loss.


----------



## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Petie1104, no I don't think those phrases have the same meaning as I intend. Thank you for trying to re-phrase my words.
> 
> ...


 OK, let's turn it around...

What if I said to you...

You mean that you have to spend time empathizing with your child, well, I've never heard of that, I wonder what is keeping him from connecting to you? I mean what need are you not meeting that would allow him to connect to you? I'm not saying anything is wrong with you or your child, but there must be some need not being met that makes your child unable to connect to you.

Do you still NOT see how this would be hurtful?


----------



## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:

I want to address this because I'm concerned you still aren't understanding my intent. First, I would like you to notice that my quote begins with my saying that I have heard everyone who said that their kids are not like my kids. *"Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine."* I have been accused several times of being unable to accept that not all kids are like my own, which was confusing and frustrating for me since I thought I had clearly said that I *do* hear that and would like to understand more about it. Hence, the question which was another source of conflict: "I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?"

*Yes, you acknowledged those who said their kids operated differently. And then you went on to cite your experience to the contrary.*



> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine. It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy! I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing. I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?
> 
> ...


----------



## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

> OK, let's turn it around...
> 
> What if I said to you...
> 
> ...


Ah ha! I do get it now, how that would be hurtful to someone else. Thank you for clarifying it for me. I'm sorry for hurting people with my choice of words. Also, it was not my meaning to say that the unmet need should be met by the parent or they must not be doing things right--only that it's helpful to know what it is.

However, *I don't actually see these words as hurtful myself, which is why I didn't get it at first*. Everyone has unmet needs at times. Unmet needs are the basis for any conflict. So I'm not saying that you aren't connected to your child and that's what leads to the tantrum--which I agree, my word choice was inaccurate and hurtful here--I'm saying that there is an unmet need that leads to the tantrum, and if you can find out what it is, you can give more accurate empathy (or if you choose, you can meet that need). I inhabit a world where thinking about what needs are unmet is helpful in experiencing empathy, so no, I don't think this is a hurtful question to ask. If my child is upset and I'm making empathy guesses, I keep going until I find one that connects: "Are you frustrated?" No. "Are you disappointed?" No. "Are you upset because you wanted choice?" Yes!

I do this because I want my kids to have a large emotional vocabulary. I want for them to learn that anger is a surface level emotion, and when they feel angry I encourage them, by making empathy guesses, to explore and find out what's underneath the anger: are you embarrassed? are you scared? are you wanting to matter to others? are you wanting consideration? are you wanting power? are you wanting choice?

In my experience (I understand it's not yours) power and choice are huge for kids. A large percentage of the time, this is what a tantrum is really about. I want to give my kids as much power and choice as I can, while trying to balance the needs of other family members too.

Thinking about unmet needs and empathy isn't limited to children in my life. It's not a parenting strategy, per se. It's how I relate to my husband, my friends, my parents and siblings, and anyone else.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> However, I don't actually see these words as hurtful myself, which is why I didn't get it at first. Everyone has unmet needs at all times. Unmet needs are the basis for any conflict. So I'm not saying that you aren't connected to your child and that's what leads to the tantrum--which I agree, my word choice was inaccurate and hurtful here--I'm saying that there is an unmet need that leads to the tantrum, and if you can find out what it is, you can give more accurate empathy (or if you choose, you can meet that need). *I inhabit a world where thinking about what needs are unmet is helpful in experiencing empathy, so no, I don't think this is a hurtful question to ask. If my child is upset and I'm making empathy guesses, I keep going until I find one that connects: "Are you frustrated?" No. "Are you disappointed?" No. "Are you upset because you wanted choice?" Yes!*
> 
> ...


I'm still gently laughing at some of this. I don't think I can quite bring myself to do it but I'd love to record my son while posing him the questions you ask above when he's upset. It would go like this:

"I want to watch Mighty Machines!"
"You're upset because you can't watch Mighty Machines!"

"I'm upset because YOU WON'T LET ME watch Machines!"

"You wish I would let you watch one million hours of Mighty Machines. You're mad at me because I said no"

"Yes!" ***note that there is an 'empathy connection' here***

So far we're going well along the lines of How to Talk So Kids...

Next few minutes, repeat similar empathy as the conversation gradually devolves, usually with an element of bargaining: "Oh mama, I will feel so much better and love you SO MUCH if you let me watch Mighty Machines!"

***note that all the empathy, fantasy wish granting, etc., has not resulted in the end of the upset***

Next few minutes, my son starts stamping his feet &/or trying to grab the remote.

Finally, tears and shrieks of anger.

Instead this is how we've learned to have it go down:

"You're upset because you can't watch Mighty Machines!"

"I'm upset because YOU WON'T LET ME watch Machines!"

"You wish I would let you watch one million hours of Mighty Machines. You're mad at me because I said no"

"Yes!"

"I'm really sorry hon. It is hard when TV time is over. But my decision is final. I'm not discussing it any further."

Then I walk away and there is still some upset, but it ends way faster. Usually I then say something like "I'm in here shelling pistachios, would you like to help?"

I think my issue continues to be that you insist that empathy in the moment is the one true answer and a lack of connection is the one true cause. When in fact, sometimes my kid just wants to watch more TV than he's allowed for that day. We're really connected and he does feel heard, but he's also 5. He gets upset when things don't go his way. So do I at 39, for that matter, at times. We don't have a lot of meltdowns overall, but we do consistently on a few things...not coincidentally, the things that we have limits on that he doesn't like.

That doesn't mean I don't seek the empathy/connection - but in my son's case, he really will keep going and escalating (particularly on the small things) until the adult helps to end it. And I do find it really kind of upsetting/annoying that you simply won't take my word for it but continue to speculate aloud that it's all about the empathy. In our family's case, sometimes it really is not.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I think my issue continues to be that you insist that empathy in the moment is the one true answer and a lack of connection is the one true cause. When in fact, sometimes my kid just wants to watch more TV than he's allowed for that day. We're really connected and he does feel heard, but he's also 5. He gets upset when things don't go his way. So do I at 39, for that matter, at times. We don't have a lot of meltdowns overall, but we do consistently on a few things...not coincidentally, the things that we have limits on that he doesn't like.


Yup. Me asking him over and over about why he is upset is pointless. We both KNOW why he is upset-I am placing a limit on something he wants to be limitless. The only difference is he hasn't yet gathered the skill set to handle disappointment or loss or desires with grace. And me standing around taking abuse, or asking questions he can't really process while he is shrieking and rolling around on the floor gets neither of us to the place we need to be. When he is calmer we can talk about what might make the situation better.

I have read Unconditional parenting. With the exception of the praise section I find it short on applicable detail and long on theory but that is just me.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

YES!! That's the crux of it for me. DD DOES feel heard, but sometimes hearing her isn't going to change my mind (i.e. i HEAR that she wants to eat 53 ice lollies a day, drink my coffee and have as many of her chewy multivitamins as she wants every day but i cannot as a parent allow those things - i let her have 1 ice lolly, occasionally have the foam off my coffee and choose her vitamins herself and have one every day). My DD doesn't seek my empahty, she seeks my compliance, and is too young to be able to see that there are times when i can give it and times when i cannot.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm a big fan of UP, and as I recall, the book says to not worry about what other people think, and to make sure you're child is physically safe, reassure them, and then to be calm and patient and wait it out.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

I've never insisted that empathy is the one true solution or that empathy will stop a tantrum. Please stop saying that I am insisting on that. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I am talking about *my family*.

I'm the only one here being called on the carpet for mis-statements or hurtful language--but when I point out that speaking about my own personal experience is not exactly a "sweeping statement" I am ridiculed for "arguing semantics." When I defend my position, and let you know that I don't feel that my perspective is welcome in this discussion, you say that I'm taking it personally and in fact I am welcome in a discussion where people are allowed to disagree with one another. But then people continue to accuse me of being insensitive and hurtful. I'm confused.

I've said I'm sorry for unintentionally hurting people's feelings with my word choice; I've explained my meaning; I've admitted (as has been requested several times) that your children are not like mine or any I've experienced; I've assured you that I'm not saying that I don't believe you, or that there's something wrong with your kids or your parenting.

I wonder if what people really want to hear is "you're right and I'm wrong." Do you want me to leave the thread? Do you only want to hear from people who agree with you?

I'm frustrated that no matter what I say, people are still upset about what I didn't say, or what they think I said.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Perhaps you should respond to those of us trying to have a discussion instead of just those who disagree with you/rub you up the wrong way?

For example, i just said (a couple of posts back) that my DD seeks compliance rather than empathy. Want to talk about that? Want to talk about what else, besides empathy, might work for those of us who have kids who DON'T respond to empathy?

You don't have to respond to those people who disagree with you. You can leave the thread or not, just as you please, who cares what people "want"? They don't have to read your posts, they choose to, if they choose to, get upset, and post about it...oh well. LOL, you can see, this is how i deal with all kinds of tantrums! LOL! Someone's contradictory experiences cannot invalidate your own, that goes for all of us. BUt equally people will sometimes skim and misread/misunderstand/misconstrue what others say. They don't owe you extra time to understand better, and maybe they actually understand fine and just don't agree. That's ok too. Try not to take any of this personally, it really isn't. We are a bunch of people who don't know you, have never met you, cannot possibly judge any thing about you! You cannot make people let go of their misunderstandings about your words, but you have the power to stop dissecting it all. If you want.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Been following this thread for awhile now....

Just wanted to say to lizajane that I actually don't agree with most of your posts in this thread (the approach or the parenting philosophies-- like UP, etc.-- that seem to inspire it), but at the same time it does seem like you're trying to have a conversation about this and you're just getting heaped on every time you post. I'm sorry to see that.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> I wonder if what people really want to hear is "you're right and I'm wrong." Do you want me to leave the thread? Do you only want to hear from people who agree with you?
> 
> I'm frustrated that no matter what I say, people are still upset about what I didn't say, or what they think I said.


I hear you, sister.

However, a forum is supposed to be an exchange of ideas. Those of us who feel differently than the crowd should feel welcome to make our voices heard without threat as long as we've been reasonably respectful... which I think you have been all this time.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizajane30*
> 
> It sounds to me like he continues to scream because he doesn't feel heard, especially if you are turning off the TV (why do this? what does it have to do with the issue at hand?) or leaving the room. When he begins to get upset, can you "translate" his screams for him by making empathy guesses: "Oh, you sound really sad! Are you upset because you didn't get what you wanted? It sounds like you're disappointed that your breakfast wasn't the way you were expecting. It can be really disappointing when we think we're going to get something and it doesn't happen. Do you want to tell me what you'd like me to do differently next time?" I'm not saying that you have to bring him a new breakfast or do over whatever was done wrong. But you can let him know that you hear his disappointment and would like him to let you know how it could be better next time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I just posted on my 4.5 yr olds behavior and I need to make sure I empathize before disengaging from the screaming. Of course these "little things" are a big deal in their world. I just need to figure out a way to get my son to respect our ears, while I respect his need to be heard.


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