# NOW I'm worried (WARNING: CHILD ABUSE MENTIONED)



## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Remember my recent post about the girls with seemingly no respect for boundaries?

Today I let the 7yo hang out on our porch whild my DD read to her. She was very respectful of not kissing and not carrying the baby. I had her sitting in the dreaded bumbo but she was content there. I was playing around with one of our car seats.

We started talking about family- aunts, uncles, etc. She asked me how many aunts and uncles N had, and I told her that she had one aunt (that she knows of right now).

The little girl told me that she has an uncle that lives with her. She told me that he bothers her and her sister alot. I replied "Oh really?" and she mentioned that he kisses them alot and that they don't like it. She also mentioned her uncle's name, but randomly after we were done discussing uncles and aunts. I think she may be reaching out to me.

Now I'm worried. My DH had mentioned the possibility of these kids being abused, and that being the reason that they don't know boundaries. I'm not sure what to make of this.

What would you do?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should seek more information from her next time she brings it up without coaching. You could say something like "when does that happen?" "why does he do that?" and see if she shares information that clears him of suspicion or makes you feel that you need to report asap.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I would call DCFS. Even if it is a false alarm, with child abuse its better to be safe than sorry. I know you mentioned before that you need to move out of your MILs house, so I would make the call anonymously and report what the little girl told you. Here is the number for Child and Family Services Child Abuse Hotline in Illinois:
800-25-ABUSE
217-785-4020


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think you should seek more information from her next time she brings it up without coaching. You could say something like "when does that happen?" "why does he do that?" and see if she shares information that clears him of suspicion or makes you feel that you need to report asap.


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

Honestly I think it's going way, way too far to assume SA from this.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
Honestly I think it's going way, way too far to assume SA from this.

I have to agree. She didn't specify what kind of kiss or where or anything. It could be that he has smelly breath and kisses them on the cheek and they hate it. *shrugs* I'd try to gather more info before rushing into anything, personally.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I have to agree. She didn't specify what kind of kiss or where or anything. It could be that he has smelly breath and kisses them on the cheek and they hate it. *shrugs* I'd try to gather more info before rushing into anything, personally.

Thanks, this is what I'm going to do. It just worries me.. 1) because my DH had suggested that something could be going on with the uncle, and 2) because of the boundary issues we have been encountering. Hopefully she gives me more insight into this- be it good or bad. As someone who was SA as a child myself (once, not over a period of time but there was a lot of grooming), it kind of hits home for me.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I think you don't have enough information. At that age, I hated going to my grandma's house because her kisses were wet. She never sexual abused me.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
Honestly I think it's going way, way too far to assume SA from this.









esp. since its a cultural thing too.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
I think you don't have enough information. At that age, I hated going to my grandma's house because her kisses were wet. She never sexual abused me.









that reminds me...I hated my DAD'S kisses because he had facial hair! No SA here.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

I didn't read your previous post but it sounds like your instincts are being triggered...
As a mama, I suggest you trust your gut.
As a social worker in foster care, I suggest you make an anonymous call as a pp suggested. They will make the determination if it's worth being investigated. What many people don't know is that records are kept of calls made, even if they aren't investigated at the time. You NEVER know if this guy is already on their radar for something else.
That's my 2 cents. Good luck!


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 







that reminds me...I hated my DAD'S kisses because he had facial hair! No SA here.

I hated it when my grandfather kissed me-he always kissed my ear and it irritated my eardrum.


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## Coco99 (Jul 7, 2007)

Call Child protection services. If it is nothing, they will see that. If its something, the kids will be safe. better investigate a false alarm then lose a real one...


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

I would need to know more. Some social workers are power hungry and you could destroy their family. I also hated kisses from my grandfather because he thought it was fun to do beard rubs.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter* 
I would need to know more. Some social workers are power hungry and you could destroy their family. I also hated kisses from my grandfather because he thought it was fun to do beard rubs.

This! It freaks me out that someday my DS could "complain" to someone about his auntie giving him too many kisses and they want to call CPS???









I hope those girls ar not being abused but it is a HUGE leap to call CPS from the info in the OP.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that this isn't much to use for a CPS call, and I question whether they actually have boundary issues of if it's a cultural difference.

I would keep my eyes and ears open, and maybe ask some non-leading questions next time I saw her.


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## dakotablue (Jun 21, 2009)

ok so as a foster parent...call. go with your gut if that's _your_ gut. Did your alarm go off before or after dh said anything? I agree that complaining about kissing isn't enough to call, but was it the WAY she said it that made you worried? Sometimes as parents we can see what a child is saying through body language and that's hard to convey over a post. If it were me and I had that achy oh no feeling I'd call.

You can also take the time to look at this closer and see what else she says/ if you notice anything else.

Ok so don't flame me for this, sometimes molestation is almost accepted in some cultures, I don't know if this is the case, but I have seen this in my own (used to be) line of work with children with disabilities. But because of this I am wary when someone says its just cultural.

I will say My neighbor across the street has done somethings (like taking her kids in a car once without enough seatbelts) and I didn't call. I have never gotten the feeling that ill was ever meant towards these kids. She seemed uncomfortable, but had no other solution and since has bought another larger car (they used to take two cars but one broke down) In this circumstance I didn't think calling was needed. So I'm not sitting by the phone call at first sign of anything kinda gal.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dakotablue* 
Ok so don't flame me for this, sometimes molestation is almost accepted in some cultures,

That is such a strong accusation. What cultures exactly are you talking about?
IIRC, OP's neighbor is Latino (Mexican?). They are very expressive people.
Excessive kissing to me does not sound like it warrants a call to CPS just because it makes someone from a different culture uncomfortable.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
That is such a strong accusation. What cultures exactly are you talking about?
IIRC, OP's neighbor is Latino (Mexican?). They are very expressive people.
Excessive kissing to me does not sound like it warrants a call to CPS just because it makes someone from a different culture uncomfortable.

Just a note: My husband is half Mexican and there are parts of the family (that we don't associate with) where it is well known that the father molested the daughters...however, it's a "he's the patriarch" kind of thing so no one really talks about it...
So yes, it CAN happen.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

There is a difference between it being culturally accepted and the family members choosing (wrongfully so!) to ignore and not talk about it.
There are a lot of American families (as reported by the media) where abuse was occurring but the wife and other family members did not report it because of they feared the abuser. Do I go as far as saying that abuse is culturally accepted in America?


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
There is a difference between it being culturally accepted and the family members choosing (wrongfully so!) to ignore and not talk about it.
There are a lot of American families (as reported by the media) where abuse was occurring but the wife and other family members did not report it because of they feared the abuser. Do I go as far as saying that abuse is culturally accepted in America?

Personally, I think it can be a cultural thing in the sense of "we don't question the patriarch."


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

"We don't question the patriarch" can happen in any patriarchal culture, including the white American culture. I don't personally think that's relevant.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

_Call Child protection services._

Whoah. There's nowhere near enough info to take that route yet.

_If it is nothing, they will see that._

Maybe, maybe not.

_If its something, the kids will be safe._

Maybe, maybe not.

If you want to be this little girl's advocate, OP, then maintain contact and keep your eyes and ears open. And thank you for caring about her.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sfcmama* 
I didn't read your previous post but it sounds like your instincts are being triggered...
As a mama, I suggest you trust your gut.
As a social worker in foster care, I suggest you make an anonymous call as a pp suggested. They will make the determination if it's worth being investigated. What many people don't know is that records are kept of calls made, even if they aren't investigated at the time. You NEVER know if this guy is already on their radar for something else.
That's my 2 cents. Good luck!

As a foster parent and as a former teacher of children from at risk families, I agree.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Ok maybe it's been said, but I saw the suggestion and I have to respond.

Do _not_ actively try and get more information out of her. You are not trained to do that. There is are strict guidelines that need to be followed to prevent any chance that child would claim sexual abuse when there is none just to please the adult and that can cause even more problems than just calling CPS.

If you don't feel there is enough information to call CPS then keep contact with the kids and keep your eyes and ears open but don't ask to many questions about the uncle beyond a simple "why is that?" when she claims he's bothering her and her siblings. To many questions from you could result in an actual abuser not being convicted.

If your gut tells you something is off about the situation then call CPS. For all the anti-CPS stuff you can hear from other people, they do actually help children who need it and they are the ones who have the ability to do so.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Do _not_ actively try and get more information out of her. You are not trained to do that. There is are strict guidelines that need to be followed to prevent any chance that child would claim sexual abuse when there is none just to please the adult and that can cause even more problems than just calling CPS.
.

Hmm...That's a REALLY good point. All it would take is one, "Well, she said" or "She asked" to ruin it...


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
Just a note: My husband is half Mexican and there are parts of the family (that we don't associate with) where it is well known that the father molested the daughters...however, it's a "he's the patriarch" kind of thing so no one really talks about it...
So yes, it CAN happen.

Before I read the rest of the posts.. I wanted to respond to this one. My DH is Mexican, (as am I, though I was raised by my Irish American mother) and I can say that this has happened in his family before.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

MusicianDad, that's a really good point. I haven't asked her anything about it though.

The thing that really struck me as odd was the way she said it. I can't really explain how she said it. But I'll keep an eye on the situation and see if she mentions anything else.

I wanted to add that her older sister (who's about 11) acts very provocative around the neighborhood boys, who are a few years older than her. She also dresses way older than most girls her age do. I don't know if this is indicitave of any type of SA but I wanted to mention that. It could be coincidental, but still.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
I wanted to add that her older sister (who's about 11) acts very provocative around the neighborhood boys, who are a few years older than her. She also dresses way older than most girls her age do. I don't know if this is indicitave of any type of SA but I wanted to mention that. It could be coincidental, but still.

I'll be honest...I was like this around that age. No SA, but an absent father figure. I wanted attention and knew that was one sure fire way to get it.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
MusicianDad, that's a really good point. I haven't asked her anything about it though.

The thing that really struck me as odd was the way she said it. I can't really explain how she said it. But I'll keep an eye on the situation and see if she mentions anything else.

I wanted to add that her older sister (who's about 11) acts very provocative around the neighborhood boys, who are a few years older than her. She also dresses way older than most girls her age do. I don't know if this is indicitave of any type of SA but I wanted to mention that. It could be coincidental, but still.

I have a 12 year old daughter..........I can say that I see some girls her age and go OMG! Others are still playing with Barbie and baby dolls. I have seen my 12 year old flirts then 15 minutes later playing pretend. The age you are talking about are age of extreme. That 11 year old is budding into womenhood and getting her sexuality. Yes, she might be learning to flirt! But with what I have seen that is on the spectrum of norms. It can be shocking to see the extreme.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
...
Excessive kissing to me does not sound like it warrants a call to CPS just because it makes someone from a different culture uncomfortable.

It's making someone from the SAME CULTURE (the little girl herself) uncomfortable. I'm no expert, but I did work with a child abuse prevention program for awhile in college. The kids were taught that ANY touch from an adult that makes them uncomfortable should be reported to a trusted adult. Any touch, let alone "excessive" kissing. Even if it's only one kiss, if the child deems it excessive and unwanted, it needs to stop.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

As a child, I remember talking about really hating it when my much older brothers tickled me. As a pre-teen I remember so not liking it when my dad kissed me because, well, I was a pre-teen and I didn't like stubble.
I can't imagine the horror that I would feel if someone called CPS on my family because of some random thing that I expressed.
Point is, there really isn't much to go on on the info that the OP has. Of course she could keep her eyes and ears open but calling the CPS based on ONE random statement? These are real families you're dealing with.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swd12422* 
It's making someone from the SAME CULTURE (the little girl herself) uncomfortable. I'm no expert, but I did work with a child abuse prevention program for awhile in college. The kids were taught that ANY touch from an adult that makes them uncomfortable should be reported to a trusted adult. Any touch, let alone "excessive" kissing. Even if it's only one kiss, if the child deems it excessive and unwanted, it needs to stop.

Every now and then, I give my child a kiss even though she's mad at me. I would be mortified and horrified if she reported abuse to a trusted adult.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swd12422* 
It's making someone from the SAME CULTURE (the little girl herself) uncomfortable. I'm no expert, but I did work with a child abuse prevention program for awhile in college. The kids were taught that ANY touch from an adult that makes them uncomfortable should be reported to a trusted adult. Any touch, let alone "excessive" kissing. Even if it's only one kiss, if the child deems it excessive and unwanted, it needs to stop.

That is too broad of a statement. I have had to force medicine and medical care onto a child. Not my top things I wanted to do but as an adult I know the long term benefit.

I had a child that screamed every time I put her in the car seat. I know she didn't like my touch.

I have seen a parent roughly snatch a child running into on coming traffic. Then hug tightly while the child fought. She could not move this unruly child and her stroller (I was across the street). Trust me that child didn't like it but she wasn't being abusive or wrong.

I am not saying the uncle shouldn't be told to do less kisses but unwanted touch is not necessarily abuse. I mentioned my grandma's wet kiss. I hated, but I missed them. Same with my grandpas' stubble-- hated it as a child but and how one use to tickle and rub the back of my neck with his stubble. I misses it. I fondly I look at these things now.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm not saying any unwanted touch is abuse. I'm saying that the kids were told that unwanted touches by ANYONE should stop after they speak up, and if they don't stop, the kids should tell a trusted adult (so that the trusted adult can help them sort through it, not so the trusted adult can haul off the offender and ruin a family). A 7 year old, and even an 11 year old are basically powerless to determine whether it's abuse. But they should certainly have the power to control who touches them and how. Obviously, medical conditions and fighting toddlers (the latter of which I'm VERY familiar with) are not what we're talking about. A toddler who says he doesn't like how mommy touches him won't get far enough with an authority who can quickly figure out a 3-year-old hates his car seat. And I'm certainly not saying that situation needs an "authority" to straighten it out. This is pre-teen girls being kissed against their wishes by a male in the house who has free access to them anytime. They are uncomfortable and if nothing else are being taught that personal boundaries don't matter. The OP herself said that the boundary issue is what first made her uncomfortable. These girls need to learn that they don't have to be touched by anyone they don't want touching them. Period. When I was a kid, I had the same stubble thing with my dad and grandpa. I hated the feeling and felt completely helpless and at their mercy b/c I couldn't get them to stop. Why should any child be made to feel so powerless, even under such innocent and loving circumstances? Things like that ruin a person's self-esteem. I read so much on here about consensual living. Where are those folks now? This is not consensual, and it's very likely a downward spiral. I'd much rather inconvenience and embarrass an obnoxious uncle than ignore two girls who are seemingly in need of some sort of help, even if only in the form of some decent parenting.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

But see the problem is that sometimes, bringing CPS into it does more than just "inconvenience and embarass" the family.
On top of that, I am pretty sure that although I did not like being kissed by my stubbly father then, when I remember those memories, I do cherish them now and I'm thankful that my dad was playful with me even if I did not like it then. If it impacted my self-esteem at all, it would probably on a more positive note.
While it is best to acknowledge the girls' discomfort with their uncle's show of affection, I am not quite sure that calling CPS is the right way to go about it.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

Get more info from the girl before you do anything.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I've been working with child abuse (both directly for child welfare and before that in education as a mandated reporter) for 20 yrs and in that time I've never heard of a report coming in that a parent was too rough putting child in carseat or snatching child from oncoming traffic. (Beating the child with an object while strapped in carseat yes... breaking an arm/ribs/blunt force trauma to head while supposedly just "playing around", yes. But not plain old wrestling a resistent child into a carseat, which I've had to do myself many times and it probably sounded like I was torturing her.)

Nor have I ever heard of CPS actually investigating alleged sexual abuse based on a child not liking mom kissing them or an uncle's bearded kisses. Sadly, most of the sexual abuse allegations that get investigated are only after some really clear evidence is presented to intake, and we all know how much has usually occurred by the time there's clear evidence...I've even heard of 3 and 4 yr olds with sexually transmitted diseases but not enough other evidence to show WHO was abusing them so not enough for CPS to really act.

I'm NOT saying CPS never investigates unnecessarily, nor am I saying people who weren't doing anything wrong don't ever get their lives disrupted by CPS. It definitely happens. But it's absolutely the exception, not the rule.

On this issue, I actually agree with the immediate next step of asking the children for more details (gently and not making a big deal out of it), and then seeing what the mama gut tells OP to do (and reporting if that's what her gut is). But if she called CPS now based on what she already knows, I'd understand that too, but I'd be doubtful they'd investigate on this info alone.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

LROM,

I have seen a relationship severely harmed by over zealous actions. I baby sat a little girl that had issues with wiping. She was about 6 at the time. I had put medicine on her bottom, the school nurse had helped, her mom, and her dad help. We would inspect the butt because it was *that* big of a medical issue. The teacher new of the issues

They did a good touch/bad touch and she asked about her dad touching her bottom. The school reported him. He went through hell. Their relationship was strain. She is getting ready to have a baby----her biggest fear is that her husband won't hug enough. She is 27 years old and remembers when her dad stop hugging her and she knows is was caused by her actions (innocent).

So yes, I do worry about the people that are hurt not only about the abuse but over zealous actions.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
So yes, I do worry about the people that are hurt not only about the abuse but over zealous actions.

ITA, it only takes a whiff of SA talk to turn a whole family or neighborhood against a person.

I also agree with MusicanDad, there are people who are trained to talk to children and get the truth.

If it was me and my porch, I would just let her talk about it more next time it comes up. It's pretty easy to get 6y/os to talk. You just repeat what they said to you, and they continue with the story. Usually you can tell once the talk for a while if it's a real event or just a story, and what you should do from there.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
So yes, I do worry about the people that are hurt not only about the abuse but over zealous actions.

Just a random story: I personally know a guy that went through hell (even spent time in jail) because after a good/bad touch lesson his son reported him for touching...nothing had actually happened. The kid was mad because his dad had grounded him and was using a normal bath as revenge. So yeah, I'm hesitant to tell the OP to go immediately to CPS.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

If you do try to talk to her, stick to the facts and only ask what happened? when did it happen? who did it? Where did it happen? Any more than that and it could be considered 'tainted evidence' and make it not be investigated properly. If there is still enough reason for you to suspect, call and report those 4 things only.


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## Mammajamma (Feb 9, 2008)

Um, I think that I gathered from a previous post that the children in question are hispanic. Coming from a hispanic background myself I find it a rather harsh statement to suggest that this culture would consider sexual abuse as acceptable. Though there are hispanics who have been abused; I believe that this can be said across the board about every culture. If anything I have seen hispanic mothers be very protective about their children...that is actually a cultural thing because they invest a lot into motherhood for various reasons. In my view the OP should not call CPS until she knows definitively something is happening. Also if there is discomfort associated with them being overly " Touchy, feely" then there are ways to alleviate that without making the children feel as if there is something wrong with them for their touchy, feeliness or something wrong with their family for the way that they show affection ( unless of course their is something going on that is abusive in nature.)


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## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

Was there any comment prior to this where you acknowledged that she was respecting your wishes by not kissing the baby? It could be she was trying to relate to you on that issue.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *montlake* 
Was there any comment prior to this where you acknowledged that she was respecting your wishes by not kissing the baby? It could be she was trying to relate to you on that issue.

Could be, but her sister has been more of the "kisser" whereas she has been more of the "grab the baby out of my arms" type.


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## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

I wouldn't call yet- for sure. For all you know these kids have a wonderful home with a mother and family who is crazy about them and you could screw them up for years by reporting something like this when you are not sure. I would try to do a little research into before doing anything because if it turns out not to be abuse it would be a terriblt thing to put these people through


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