# Sexism and our sons



## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Fresh start?

Mothers of daughers are welcome to chime in but may find more relevance on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=270917


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I'll start...

Here's what I wrote in the other thread (just copied and pasted, so sorry if it's a little out of context):

I am completely committed to raising my son as a feminist and I have no reason to believe that I will fail in that. However, I am very aware that he is going to benefit from sexism, that he is going to have male privilege. I'm not going to get mad at him for that. I am going to expect him to recognize it and fight against it.

I think a lot about how to raise a feminist man in a patriarchy. It's pretty frickin hard. There's so much... it's pretty overwhelming.

One example is what Eilonwy brought up. I love what you wrote! We get that "hearbreaker" stuff all the time too. I am going to start using your line: "Actually he's going to be very respectful of women."







The other thing I say is when they say something like "oh the girls will go crazy over him," I say, "the boys will too." No compulsory heterosexuality for my boy!

At 16 mo it's hard to find concrete ways to be anti-sexist.

For example, just about every day we walk through a gauntlet of cat-calling day laborers. They have to stand there all day, waiting for their underpaid demeaning jobs, I sympathesize. But I don't appreciate the cat-calls. I just ignore them, anyway; in fact I hardly ever hear them anymore. But this thread has reminded me that my son hears them every time, although he doesn't understand, he is still absorbing it. What can I do? I'm not going to stop and argue with these guys, I just don't have the time or the energy and I suspect that neither my Spanish or their English is good enough for that level of discourse. How can I send my son the message that this behavior, which he sees me put up with every single day, is not ok?


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

How do we prevent our sons from growing into these people? Should we allow girls who are 30 pounds heavier and four years older to push our little boys at the playground? Should we encourage our girls to take toys from little boys without apologizing, but demand apologies of our boys for doing the same thing?

I really think that this is just as damaging to (little) boys as it is to girls. Our society tells boys that they're not allowed to cry in public once they're more than a year old, that if they have long hair or big eyes they're "too pretty to be a boy," and that if a girl takes a toy or pushes them it's okay. At the same time, we're telling girls that they're victims of sexism if a little boy at the park takes their toy, and that they should stand up for themselves by taking that toy back even if the boy who took it is just a baby who doesn't understand. The problem should be taking the toy, not the fact that a boy took it.

I don't want my son to internalize the idea that violence against women/girls is okay, or that it's normal or reasonable; in fact, it was this very argument that convinced my husband that we should homeschool. However, I do believe that boys are victims of societal pressures just as much as girls are. It's very unlikely that a boy who isn't openly gay (a whole different discussion) will be held down and have his pants pulled off in front of classmates, but at one point the kid pulling the pants off was most assuredly a victim of societal pressures to "be a man." I totally understand not wanting to make boys the victims here, but I really believe that they are, particularly when they're young and vulnerable.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I don't know and doubt this is going to be very logical - am feeling pretty drained from the other post but I have to say that at some point my views on this have shifted as peoples perception of my child has changed.

When my older ds was little (under 3) I used to think about this issue in terms of feminism because people were still saying stuff like "oh what a sweet little boy" However, now that he is 5 it has not escaped me that many people let me know upfront that they consider him a threat based on his age, size, gender. It is usually moms of little girls which frustrates me because we have two very aggressive little girls on our street who have hit and bit my boys many times. The irony of this is that I think that this sort of hostility exacerbates the problems we are trying to avoid later.

So at the same time I am struggling to prepare to raise sensitive men who respect men and women alike - I can not overlook the way he is being treated right now. He matters right now, his feelings matter right now (and being five - he has good enough comprehension to frequently understand the outright terrible things that people say about boys in front of him) I am not comfortable blowing it off because when he is older there will be girls his age who are mistreated.

Finally, I can't help but wonder if how we feel about this has to do with how the experiences we've had as women? The first post on this thread mentioned the advantages of being a man. I haven't ever really felt at a disadvantage as a woman - honestly, I think that my brother and I were treated very equitably both at home and in the school system we attended. He currently has a masters degree in teaching and I have one in social work/social policy. I know the world is bigger than my experience but I just don't feel like I had any limitations placed on me BECAUSE I am a woman.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Hmmm. You know, I don't have that much to contribute to this thread but am finding it fascinating. My only thought is this : I think that, overwhelmingly, the way our sons treat women will be based on the example that the parents set (or, in the case, of a single mom or dad, the example set by possibly multiple relationships).

I believe that the best thing I can do for my son (in terms of him growing up a little more evolved than the rest of our culture) is to be involved in an equitable, respectful relationship with his father.

In my darker moments, when I look at the relationship I have with DH, we are not always setting the example I want to set. But, there's only so much of an existing relationship that I can control.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Truthfully, I have not put a lot of thought into it. I just think my day to day actions and being surrounded by strong and caring women and men will be a positive influence on my sons.

I did see the double standard though when my son was in kindergarten. One girl in particular would totally violate his personal boundaries and was not called down by the teacher for it. If he did something that violated a girls personal boundaries he was punished.

He is going to a Quaker school next year--the school is founded upon the ideals of simplicity, justice and equality so it will be interesting to see what happens. I'm excited because they teach the kids conflict resolution skills.

I guess I don't have a grand plan. I don't know, do I need one?


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, my sons are younger (one is almost 4 and the other one is 1) and they're not in daycare/preschool/organized playgroup, so social conditioning hasn't really started yet. So, for me, I'm viewing it from a different angle right now. With them, I'm fighting to protect that androgynous part of them that I believe is central to young children.

For example, my oldest recently picked out some pink Blue's Clues fabric for the pjs that I'm going to make him. He has other pink pajamas and is unaware right now that pink is considered "feminine". He likes pretty things (who doesn't?). He plays with his little kitchen. He was nursing his baby the other day in his sling. He is gentle and affectionate. Some parents try to snuff that out of boys, discouraging them from expressing emotions or freaking out over the like of "pretty things". We try to keep a balanced environment for them.

I am concerned with other people planting ideas in their heads that these things are not masculine or that they are undesirable, you know what I mean. My goal is for them to not be afraid of the feminine side or not to ridicule such things; they are whole people. We all are whole people. That's my sexism issue with sons right now.

I am lucky that my husband is supportive of this and that he models affection, hugging, gentle ways, nurturing, caretaking, etc. One time, in a Gymboree class, my oldest son chose some pink fluffy wings to wear during dress-up time. I think he was about 3. He said he was a butterfly and he was admiring himself in the mirror when the teacher said something like, "If Daddy were here, he wouldn't let you wear that.". Can you believe that?? I don't know what people are afraid of. I guess I don't get it. I really cringe at the phrase, "all boy". Can you be 25% boy? What does that even mean? I know what it implies and I dislike that. I dislike the small boxes that we force ours sons into.

The other angle of sexism wrt sons that I've already alluded to is modeling of caretaking. My husband changes diapers, bathes, cooks. We don't teach gender-divided work. We all share. If my sons can be like my husband, men who are kind and nurturing and equal-minded, then I will feel like we've wildly succeeded. The only thing I could wish for in them that maybe he doesn't do so much is for them to be more expressive of their feelings. I think that's hard for men, based on social conditioning. We talk about feelings a lot and we accept feelings. Ds1 and I were just talking about this today, in light of ds2 crying; I told him that everyone cries sometimes and that's Ok.

My oldest knows that he's a boy, but I don't think he really knows what that means, from a cultural perspective. He has no idea that dolls are not considered boys' toys. He's picked out pretty pink dresses for ds2 when out shopping. I've put barrettes in his hair. He does not presently identify with his gender, because he doesn't realize that it means anything more than having a penis. I'm not sure that he's thought that through either. I love the androgyny and I think that if people left kids alone, that we would see a lot more of that; I think it's natural.

Anyway, as they grow older, of course, we will talk about respecting people and those people include girls/women. We will continue to model and teach how to treat people respectfully and how to respect their body boundaries. As they get older and much more aware, we can talk about specifics.

In terms of how my sons are hurt by sexism, I think it comes out in society's ridicule of some pursuits as being, "sissy", "gay", not "all-boy", etc. Society wants to limit them and push them into the box, all while complaining that men aren't more forthcoming with feelings and respect. It makes you think and I can't figure out what people are afraid of when they fight to make their little boys "all boy".


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

I'm going to







: and subscribe to this thread--I've been thinking and talking to my dp about this very subject a lot.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Leftfield, Good that makes me feel more like I've been doing stuff!

Yeah, we have always let him wear what he wants and not steer him towards specifics. We have been very protective of "childhood" in a sense...his halloween costumes come to mind. One year he wanted to be a butterfly, the next peter pan and then a black cat. He has been comfortable with the incredible hulks and spidermans, but he has gotten some odd looks.

He is also affectionate physically with other kids. Likes to hug and kiss and I am starting to see kids shut that down.

My husband and I also share responsibilities well. I guess I don't see it as modelling because it is just who we are.

My husband works in theatre. It is cool looking at it now--my 7 year old has grown up seeing men dance, wear make-up and tights, etc. He's seen men play women and women play men. Arts communities tend to have blurrier "boundaries" than others, so it is a great way to raise boys IMO.

PS. i have a seven year boy and a nine month old boy.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Fascinating discussion. And I can post on both sides, as after two girls I now have a baby boy too. :LOL

I've always been careful with the girls to give toys, books etc with no particular gender bias and/or positive messages about their gender. Same with clothing, and neither of my dds will wear 'girlie' stuff - they go for simple, practical clothing that doesnt hinder movement (a real issue for me is girls in dresses etc that naturally inhibit movement at an early age). I dont want ds dressed in shirts with typical 'boy' stuff on - trucks, etc, because I dont want to overly influence his choices. Same with the girls, they dont have princess or flowery stuff on their clothing or toys, although the one thing they are into is My Little Pony (a kid can never have too many ponies, according to my dds).

I was bothered recently by a gift from a good friend for ds. It's a really cute onesie, but the wording on it is something like "Lock up your daughters." It really, really bothered me. Everyone else thought it was cute and funny. I just didnt. Am I way off base, and lacking in humour? What do others think? I smiled and said thanks, but wont ever put it on him. Dh thinks I'm overreacting, but it just sort of turned my stomach when I read it.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

My son is extremely gentle and sensitive.
At three, he loves animals and babies.. he cries if someone else cries.
He is very very sweet, and not aggressive at all.

I totally support his right to be who he is.. though I do worry he will be bully-bait. But rather that try to "toughen him up" or inflict male-gender stereotypes on him, I plan just to help give him confidence enough to defend himself and his boundaries. I will definitely start him in a responsible martial arts program young, as I think those disciplines are a supurb way of developing confidence.. both physical and mental. I won't force him if he HATES it, but I will encourage him.

I thought my biggest concerns about my son WOULD be making him aware of male privilege, encouraging him not to think in terms of gender-stereotypes and to respect women.
But in OUR house.. he is going to hear a LOT of discussion about those issues as a matter of course. And he is such a gentle soul by nature... it is already very EASY to help him understand people's feelings and respecting others.

What bothers me the most is all the horrible, negative messages about boys that DO get spread in the name of "feminism" and teaching girls self-confidence.
I don't see how it is "feminist" to teach that ALL male sexuality is predatory.
That ALL males are predatory.

Yes, men are more likely to rape and molest and assault. But the MAJORITY of men do NOT do these things.

I am so worried about what my son's relationships will be like, if he is out there with his precious, gentle heart.. dealing with a world full of others who automatically see him as a threat.. or a testosterone-poisened liar who will say ANYTHING to get sex.
Here I am as a feminist, expected to teach my son that tenderness, open-heartedness, honesty and consideration for others are valuable MALE qualities.. and he's already branded a potential predator at age 3.

It is really heartbreaking to try to raise a decent man in an indecent world.

We ALREADY talk about privilege, though we don't use that word yet. But we talk about kids who don't have as many toys, or enough to eat. We talk about how girls can do anything boys can do.. and all kinds of things.

But sometimes I wonder why I bother... considering that he's already being branded the "enemy" in the name of feminism.

Edited to add: I am one of the FIRST to rail against patriarchy.
And to acknowlege that girls/women need safe space.
To acknowlege that men, internalizing patriarchy, have wreaked HAVOC on women and on this planet. I want my son to know all about what unchecked patriarchy has done.

I also want him to know that being a man does NOT mean internalizing patriarchy.
And that he is NOT responsible.. nor should he be HELD responsible.. for the acts of men who do.
No matter what others may say about men and boys.


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## ian'smommaya (Jun 7, 2004)

lurking but thinking

maya working on raising her son anti sexist.


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

: don't have time for a lengthy reply now,
but thinking......
Britishmum, I would feel the same way about that shirt, why do we need to imply that male sexuality is dangerous or that women are weak and need to be "locked up" , or sheltered... I know there is reality and history to deal with, but can't we do that with our parenting w/o assuming the harmful stereotypes... and they are children, why even go there! ? !
oh and dont even get me started with the "all boy" phrase!







we live 3000 miles away from our relatives, and when i was talking to my dad and stepmom, my dad asked how steffen is walking (well- gee he is almost 2- pretty good by now!) and I said, well- he is _running_ everywhere-- to which my stepmom replied- "oh, he's all boy!"







......


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

What is a feminist male? I would love to hear some different definitions. As for me- I have a ds (5) and a dd (7). Since I am a single mom my son is always outnumbered by women and you can tell. I don't think that's a bad thing- I guess it just means that I am raising him to respect women without working too hard. I don't try to control what my kids wear or what they enjoy watching, listening to, computer, etc. except to make sure that they are being exposed to anything horrible, violent, etc. My son loves boy stuff and he has lots of it, and he also likes girl stuff and wears toenail polish most of the time. He loves to play the "girly" computer games with his sister and will play makeup with her if she asks nicely. I don't like it when people say that things are for boys or girls and I will say something if I hear about it. People are a lot more vocal in telling boys what is not "appropriate" for boys than they are with girls. I have shot down several daycare teachers who told my son not to let his sister paint his nails because that was only for girls. I haven't made a big deal about raising him feminist because I haven't noticed anything that worried me but I will be keeping a sharp eye.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Can we quit blaming feminism for men's behavior? Of course not all men are predators. BUT how are we to know who is and who isn't?

I personally haven't experienced anyone demonizing my son, and he's fifteen now. But I believe everyone who has related their experiences. So can we discuss raising our sons well and stop demonizing other women while we do it?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I HAVE had my son demonized.
And I WILL post about that here, as it IS part of what I am facing in raising my son and dealing with these issues (much to my surprise).

I have never blamed feminism for mens' behavior.
But I WILL criticize other women if I feel they are part of the overall problem.

And I will not allow ANYONE to tell me what is and isn't acceptable to think or to discuss (as long as I am not violating the user agreement!)

As for how we are to know who is and isn't a predator:
We develop our inner knowing, we look for the signs and signals, we take a long time to trust people, we teach our children to ACT on THEIR inner knowing, we listen to and BELIEVE our children, we read books like Protecting the Gift, we stay informed about and connected to our kids' lives.. we speak out against exploitation... we learn how predators act and we watch out for them... We DO challenge patriarchy..

But we don't demonize boys and male sexuality.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
I HAVE had my son demonized.
And I WILL post about that here, as it IS part of what I am facing in raising my son and dealing with these issues (much to my surprise).

I have never blamed feminism for mens' behavior.
But I WILL criticize other women if I feel they are part of the overall problem.

And I will not allow ANYONE to tell me what is and isn't acceptable to think or to discuss (as long as I am not violating the user agreement!)

As for how we are to know who is and isn't a predator:
We develop our inner knowing, we look for the signs and signals, we take a long time to trust people, we teach our children to ACT on THEIR inner knowing, we listen to and BELIEVE our children, we read books like Protecting the Gift, we stay informed about and connected to our kids' lives.. we speak out against exploitation... we learn how predators act and we watch out for them... We DO challenge patriarchy..

But we don't demonize boys and male sexuality.


Perhaps you misunderstood my post? Someone above commented on feminists looking down on them or something, I don't remember. I'll look for it later so I can explain my comment better.

I never told anyone not to post anything, and I certainly never told anyone not to post about their sons being demonized. In fact, I said I BELIEVE EVERYONE WHO HAS HAD THAT EXPERIENCE. OK?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

While I do feel society has a lot to do with shaping ideas, outlooks and the like, I think most of it is formed by our family life, who we are exposed to almost all the time, how our mothers and fathers see the world. I do firmly believe it begins there and the foundation is laid there.

I could go on forever about it but I am too tired. I firmly believe though, that the (appx) 8 year old boy I saw in the store the other day with his father who was wearing a t-shirt that said "If a tree falls in the forest and a woman isn't there to bitch about it, do we sill get in trouble?" (or something very similar) ...will potentially grow up to be MUCH more sexist than a similar 8 year old boy who sees men cat calling or whistling at his mom (for example) ---not saying both aren't sexist etc, but it begins VERY early, and anyone with any credentials will tell you that family and early life and caretaker experiences have much more of an impact than anything else...

The point is, I don't worry about it. When I see a young sexist male or a young girl with low self esteem etc, I rarely have to look further than their own family life, ideas, philosophies, comments etc...not saying that is ALWAYS the case, but moreso than not...

ETA: I DO worry about it, I didn't mean to sound so cavalier, I meant that I don't worry so much about how society will shape my children in that respect, as I believe that the close people in their life will shape them more and have more of an impact and lay the foundation, so when they are bombarded with society, they will have that to fall back on.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Ok, I think I was mixing this

Quote:

But sometimes I wonder why I bother... considering that he's already being branded the "enemy" in the name of feminism.
together with some stuff from the other thread, and that isn't really fair to this thread, so disregard my earlier comment.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Asherah, this comment

Quote:

But sometimes I wonder why I bother... considering that he's already being branded the "enemy" in the name of feminism.
threw me off, too. If I didn't know you from other threads, I would probably have interpreted this way differently, like someone who thinks that "feminist" means "crazy man-hating feminazi" -- which I know is not what you belive. Just wanted to say I understand how that could have been misinterpreted. BUT I do hear what you are saying. I am thinking of a guy I know, an ex-bf of a very close friend of mine, who was raised by an uber-feminist mama and 2 sisters, and he has mad issues with his sexuality, is in fact scared of his own sexuality, because he has internalized all these messages about male sexuality as violent and predatory. Obviously I do NOT want that for my ds.

At the same time, I strongly believe that it's not enought to just model "being a good person." I wish it were that simple. But this is a sexist society, we eat drink and breathe patriarchy every day, and like it our not all our sons will be exposed to its influences. The default setting IS sexism, so I feel a responsibility to arm my son with an analysis of sexism and some tools to fight against it.

How?







I don't have any models.

As for those who don't see sexism or male privilege as a problem... uh, I'm just too tired to explain it for the millionth time, so whatever.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I just meant that I feel like I am fighting a losing battle.
Here I am trying to raise my son to be a loving, respectful man...

and he's already the subject of suspicion at 3.

I feel like I am up against patriarchy and privilege... but I am also up against the fact that my son is being considered guilty until proven innocent.

My son is already painted with the gender brush too, no matter what I do.

THAT is what I was trying to say.

And for the record, and to avoid any other misinterpretation:

I am a proud feminist and enemy of the patriarchy.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Asherah I know you are a fellow soldier. And I share your fears for my son, and all our sons.

But I think the problem you're describing is another symptom of patriarchy, kwim?

I'm really tired, I think I probably can't articulate this well so I think I shouldn't try right now.

It's hard. But don't ever say it's a losing battle.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I talk with my 7yo about priviledge often, and I use the word. We talk about white priviledge and male priviledge and the priviledges associated with being middle class and not being fat and not being disabled. I thought it would be something that I struggled with, but it isn't. I've found that he can handle a lot more than I thought he could and he really seems to get it.

Because boys are socialized to be more aggressive and aggressive behavior is more acceptable of boys, I am more cautious about letting my children play with boys than girls. Note that I didn't say that I feel this way because boys are more aggressive, I said that because they are socialized this way-- there is a difference. I see this at my playgroup all the time-- two boys get in an argument over a toy or something and the parents say "lets just let them work it out", but the instance two girls start tugging and pulling the parents jump up and intervene. Other parents are willing to let their boys go further in an argument and allow it to get physical than they are their girls. Boys, in general, are more rough, but it isn't because they are born that way. I can tell a major difference in my 7yo's behavior when he comes in from playing with a group of boys or a mixed group than when he has been playing with the neighbor girls. He's more agitated, wound up, and more likely to start a fight with him brother. I prefer his attitude when he's been playing with the girls. I don't tell him this, of course, but it is there.

I'm also shocked at how much of an affect my husband and I have been able to have on him. Three years ago, when he was four and just started preschool, I felt like it was going to be a losing battle. He's only in the second grade and we still have a loooong way to go, but I'm constantly amazed at his awareness of gender issues. We have a basketball court in the common area just outside of our fence out back. Frequently there will be a group of teenaged girls sitting around watching the boys play basketball. In the evenings, it is usually me and sometimes one other mom out there with the dads playing with the kids on the basketball court. My 7yo talks about this all the time and talks about how he hopes that his 15mo old sister is on the court playing with him and not sitting down watching him. He doesn't understand why the girls are sitting watching the boys, but he realizes that it is problem.

I know that it will get much more difficult, but I think we're on the right track. This isn't just something we talk about, we work very hard to incorporate feminism into our lives in as many ways as possible. He's innundated with images of male professionals in the media, his schoolbooks, and through discussions with his friends. We take the kids to female doctors, dentists, and even chose a female accountant when we needed help with our taxes a few years ago and had to take him with us to her office. Reverse sexism? Doesn't exist. Considering how many men and women who avoid female professionals because they are female, I figure I'm just canceling one of those people out and it has the bonus effect of exposing our children to women in professional jobs other than teaching, nursing, and reception.

So my main point is that I don't feel like it is a losing battle. I have run into situations in which I felt like my son was being portrayed in a negative light because he was a boy and assumptions were being made because of his gender, but far, far more often he benefits from being male. Any backlash that he will supposedly experience as a man will still be a drop in the bucket compared to the priviledge he will experience and I want him to know that. I'm optimistic.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

"Backlash he will SUPPOSEDLY experience."
Well, thanks, Mothra, for invalidating my fears and pain.

You know, I don't think I can talk about this here.

Hearing Mothra talk about being more cautious about letting her sons play with boys HURTS.

The issue HURTS.
My son is so sweet and gentle and it HURTS.

I am not talking about intellectual theory, or feminist philosophy.. I am talking about a mother's PAIN in her heart to think of people looking at her beautiful boy this way.

I understand that I am not going to find much sympathy here from the women I am usually allies with. Apparently fighting privilege and being a feminist means you can't be concerned about boys' feelings at all.
Well, count me as falling out of the ranks then.

Because, sorry, I can't get over my aching heart and toe the proper feminist line on this one right now.

I hope he DOES toughen up. He's gonna need to be tough to deal with all the pain out there, despite his male privilege. His gentleness terrifies me in this world, because of the expectation that "boys don't cry" and all that stereotypical gender-role crap...

but also because of other people's assumptions that he's being socialized to be aggressive, etc etc etc.

Even toddlers don't get the benefit of the doubt, apparently.

I am leaving this thread now.
This topic is another one I just can't tell my truth about here at MDC.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

asherah-- I'm really sorry that you are hurt by my words and I'm sorry that you felt that I was invalidating your feelings. I wasn't. I was stating my own and I could easily say that your words invalidte mine since they are contradictory. You have to protect yourself and your son in your own ways and I have to do the same. I cannot assume that all boys are as sweet as my own are and as sweet as I'm sure yours is. I have no doubts that he is a sweet boy and that you have managed to deflect much of the negative socialization that goes on with boys from birth as I hope that I have.

Honestly, I see no need to compare what boys go through to what girls go through. However, I don't see how anyone could argue that the outcomes are the same. Men end up in a position of power regardless of how we raise them, girls become second-class citizens. Women of color, disabled women, and women who live in poverty get hit from all sides at once. I cannot equate any backlash, perceived or real, against men as a true threat to their personhood when at every turn they are being validated as members of the more powerful, more important gender. I'm far less concerned about the fact that other mothers might be more cautious about letting her kids play with my boys (a fear that would be mitigated easily by watching them interact with other children) than I am the likelihood that my daughter will be the victim of a violent crime, sexual harrassment, and discrimination in the workplace. Crimes against women are the only crimes increasing in this country and the only crimes that have never seen a decline. My daughter's body can be held hostage by pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control pills. The list of ways that her everyday existence will be affected by sexism directed at her is endless, and the least of which is that her feelings will be hurt. She is in physical danger from our sexist society, as are all women.

No one said that male priviledge completely mitigates the pain that men who allow themselves to stay sensitive feel. I finally have men in my life who understand this. However, this cry that heterosexual white men are somehow being oppressed at large by the feminist movement just baffles me. The fact is that this is bigger than our individual children and I have to keep this in mind as I guide my children into adulthood.

I've seen more sexism directed at my 15mo old daughter than I have this backlash against my 7yo son. I can think of a handful of times when I've felt uncomfortable about something someone has said about my son in a feminist context. I can think of a handful of times today that I was uncomfortable about a sexist remark made about my daughter, and we spent the day in the backyard among neighbors who I generally like.

The fact that sexism that hurts women hurts men. It is a human issue, and I believe that none of us are free until we all are. I also talk to my 7yo about his responsibility in dissembling the patriarchy. We talk about refusing priviledge when we recognize it and talking about it when we see it. As he gets older, we'll have more frank discussions about to prevent rape and sexual and domestic violence. I'll continue to find strong female role models for him so that he continues to feel connected to women and develops a strong respect for women, not just in a familial context.

I'm not trying to silence you, asherah, but I'm not going to censor myself, either.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

And when I used the word supposed I used it when referring to my son as a man. I'm sorry, but every story I've ever heard about the effects of feminist backlash affecting men has been crap. I NEVER hear men talk about the priviledges they enjoy, only how they got screwed out of a job because some underqualified woman got the job because she put out/flirted with the boss/evil affirmative action. And that I will stand by.


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## Divina (Sep 13, 2003)

I'm getting into this late and did not see the original thread, but ...

My first child is female and is now grown and out in the world on her own. All my other children are male, one 17 and the others still very small.

IME, being feminist and raising kids is tough no matter what in this society, but raising boys is much harder. Asherah, if you are still reading this thread, I understand _exactly_ what you are talking about--on the one hand, DP and I have had pressure to "toughen up" our oldest son (the 3yo), on the other people just seem to simultaneously expect and encourage boys to act mean and to condemn all boys whether they fit the stereotype or not.

I get so _tired_ sometimes, just all the stupid stuff that people say and do, and often enough that I get angry with myself about it, I wimp out and don't say anything. Like when my DP's mom told Rowan, who was happily playing with a small dollhouse, "Oh you don't want to play with that--it's a girl toy".

If it helps any, I am enormously proud of my teenage boy. He is pretty reserved, but he is not afraid of arguing with his friends if he thinks they're acting sexist, or of resisting peer pressure to treat women as objects. I don't know, really, how he turned out so well.

I worry about my two youngest. My DP is a remarkable, thoughtful, and pretty strongly feminist man ... but he is honest about the fact that he prefers non-girlish clothes for his sons (no problems with traditionally feminine toys, just clothes). And our division of labor is currently very traditional, for financial reasons. We do have a female doctor, whose partners are also mostly female. But I still worry, especially when I chicken out so I won't have to argue.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

agree with everything you said, Mothra.
But I ache for my boy anyway.

I am scared for him.
Scared of bullies. Scared of the violent boy-culture of video games/TV that certainly objectify women and portray them as victims..
but that also make HIM more vulnerable to violence. Teenage boys are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to violence.. though certainly minorities much more so than white boys.

I am wondering what alternative images there ARE for him.
Sure, I can teach him that the macho, violent, he-man, Arnold/Steven Segal models of our culture should not define maleness...

But what alternative male role models can I offer him?
Where are the non-violent, humane male role models in our culture?

Of course, he has his dad, uncle and grandfather, who, luckily.. are awesome men.

But our culture at large doesn't offer a lot of alternative male role-models.
Yes, I can show him women in all kinds of positions of authority to get him to understand women are to be respected.. heck, I am the main breadwinner in our home. He is surrounded by strong women. He is surrounded by family who talk openly about these issues, who do volunteer work, who are activists in their communities.

But where do I find images of MEN in the culture-at-large for him to emulate?

How do I tell him men don't have to buy into the patriarchy, culture of violence.. without offering him alternatives?

That leaves him even more vulnerable.

And supposing I DO counter these awful images successfully... will women value him? (I get the distinct impression he is gonna be straight, so I am assuming he will be for the purposes of this discussion. If he isn't.. cool with me, but that would add ANOTHER layer of difficulty in this culture)

Are women/girls still being taught to value the macho boys? The "bad boys?"

I feel it is me against the world sometimes, in the effort to raise a healthy, humane, FEMINIST boy.

And, thanks for the kind words, Divina.
I kind of do feel abandoned by women I would normally be in solidarity with.
Because all I have is my boy.
Maybe it'd be easier if I DID have a girl. Then I could just continue to rail against men without worrying at all about the affect that has on boys.

But the being I love more than anything in the world has a penis.
And while I realize that affords him vast power and privilege in this culture, compared to women... and I think Mothra is totally correct in her analysis...
That penis endangers him, too.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I have 2 dd's (5 and 9) and one ds (7). So far, they are all great kids. I will admit though, that I do think it's been good that he has been surrounded by girls most of the time (i'm a single parent). His sisters are who he plays with, always. He is in school, but I can count on one hand how many playdates he's had with other boys his whole life. Why? Because, I want him as far away from the mainstream boy culture as possible. He goes to school all day, he hears and see's it all there, I have no interest in him spending his free time playing with these kids.I have witnessed an increase in his aggressivness after playing with the boys... At the same time, I feel like he is starting to really want some "boy" time. I really can't blame him. He's a terrific, kind, gentle boy, I think maybe it's time to let him venture out there some more, before he ends up hating me









Here is my worry in parenting... As a feminist who's life is EXTREMELY woman centered (my job revolves around women, my love life is with women, my friends are 95% women, and I have 2 dd's). I sometimes can see myself getting angry with him faster than I do with the girls. I catch myself feeling really rageful inside (no I don't act it out on him, but I still don't like feeling it) if I see him hitting his sister, or screaming at her, more so than what I do if the girls hit eachother, or argue with eachother. It IS ingrained in me, even though I don't want it to be. He has never at the age of 7 tryed to use his "maleness" to intimidate or bully. In fact he truely is blind to gender and race- that's how he's been raised. BUT I still find that creeping up in myself.
Have any other mama's felt that way?


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Cmb123,

I don't like mainstream boy culture either. Gender aside, my oldest is highly sensitive and gentle, pretty cautious too. I've noticed that he prefers to play with girls. He likes to do pretend play (that mostly revolves around making food) and lots of quiet activities. He's just not a very physical kid. I'm sure some of this will change when he's older.

Anyway, I noticed the boys at our last LLL meeting. Two of them were playing like a Power Rangers game; they were hitting each other with those foam pool noodles. Ds watched for a moment and then went on with what he was doing. He was using the blocks and some of the girls were using the blocks too.

I guess my bias is that I have a hard time with all the physical contact stuff that seems to go with boys. We do roughhouse at home, which I would do if I had girls too. But my oldest is not into play-fighting or weapon-play (yet?). My bias is that I like it that way. I guess it would be harder for me if he were the kind of child who ran around making gun noises or doing karate kicks. Dh says that this stuff is not so bad, but it's my bias. I guess I feel comfortable with ds hanging out with the girls, not because they are girls, but because they seem to do quieter and more peaceful pursuits.

Edited to add:
I guess I also wonder how much of the violent role-play is biological vs cultural conditioning. And if it's cultural conditioning, the media and all that (which I think 90% of it is), what do we do about it? My husband is a very sensitive and kind person. Yet, he played all these games as a kid. I guess I don't like seeing boys doing all the play-fighting and stuff, because it strikes a nerve. As girls, most of us were afraid to play with the boys because they were too rough. They were mean and threw things at us. I hate that whole macho thing. I know that people say weapons-play is a way for ordinary kids to work out issues bigger than them. But I still have a problem with stereotypical boys play, because it's like an unpleasant flashback to when I was a little girl.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I dont have a lot of time right now but I think my son experiences much more gender prejudice than my daughter does. At playgroups the leaders and other mothers ooh and aahhh over my beautiful and adorable daughter but get annoyed by my beautiful and adorable son. When my daughter is all wound up and rambunctious people think its cute but when my son is people think he is being agressive or rude or etc. People always choose the little girls as their favorites and not the boys. Even at age 4 I can see people judging my son. I 100% believe that boys and men experience feminist backlash. My son will be taught by society that men are the cause of woman's problems, that he has all this privilege (which I feel is crap) and that he should bend over backwards to accomodate woman all in the name of "feminism." I am not going to allow for one second my son to be taught that his gender is the cause of women's problems. It can be said just as easily that women are the cause of men's problems.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
I 100% believe that boys and men experience feminist backlash. My son will be taught by society that men are the cause of woman's problems, that he has all this privilege (which I feel is crap) and that he should bend over backwards to accomodate woman all in the name of "feminism." I am not going to allow for one second my son to be taught that his gender is the cause of women's problems. It can be said just as easily that women are the cause of men's problems.

Well, if that is how you intend to raise him, I'm sure he'll fit right in with the rest of our society.









I really hope you take a moment of your life to find out what feminism REALLY is about. Then you may be able to talk about it intelligently.
One of my favorite feminist sayings is: FEMINSISM IS THE RADICAL IDEA THAT WOMEN ARE PEOPLE.
It's not about hating men, if it were, all feminsts would be lesbians ( I wish they were, but we all know they are not). It is about wanting to walk in this world with equality (and that goes for everyone, not just women).


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Thanks asherah and mothra for those posts.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Hmmm....such interesting thoughts and opinions. A few reactions.

I mentioned not feeling at a disadvantage as a woman - it is not that I don't understand the role of sexism in our society. I do - I have read much feminist literature and have spent much of my professional life studying the impact of gender and OTHER factors on poverty. I guess that for me the fact that I am white and middle class with awesome involved parents seems to have made me feel that any disadvantage at being a woman was marginal and that I was provided every opportunity to succeed as boys of similar backgrounds. Now if you dig deeper and look at girls of color raised in poverty of by sexual or physical abusers their stats and opportunites overall look different - of course, if you look at the graduation and incarceration rates (as well as the likelihood of military involvement) of boys in poor rural or urban communities they also look quite different than those of the boys my brother and husband grew-up with. We all experience different levels of opportunities - my dad was a teacher my mom an administrative assistant - did I have the same opportunities as the children of attorneys or business executives? Probably not, but I was saying I feel like I got a pretty fair shake compared to the boys I grew-up alongside. Does that make sense?

I guess my focus is more on how my boys are treated everyday and how that impacts how they feel right now and who they will become. My ds loves to play with girls - in fact his closest friend is a girl with a very liberal gender neutral approach to raising both her dd and her ds. He likes to play boy games and girl games but in general I see kids of different genders moving farther and farther away from each other on the playground as they get older and I think the seeds of this is in the crap that they hear from their parents. I don't think it is feminists that are exacerbating this problem but parents - that old expression "the hand that rocks the cradle" This makes me sad for boys and girls. I love the relationships that I have with men --- not just dh and other members of my family but some of my best friends from college are men --- gay and straight --- who I was never sexually involved with. I have enjoyed these non-sexual relationships with really interesting fabulous men just like I have enjoyed relationships with other women.

I am not a fan of most mainstream boy culture (nor mainstream girl culture) gender stuff aside, we are pretty off-center with most of that stuff. DS has been raised to understand our anti-gun stance and he NEVER plays gun games with other kids....our views have actually become so imbedded that he gave dh and I a lecture because we had tickets to "Annie Get Your Gun"....He said "Gun? Gun, mommy? Really, do you think that is the sort of thing you should be watching?" :LOL

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I don't think that Shawna was saying that feminists hate men, I didn't have that impression at all...









There is definately a feminist backlash. It doesn't change the fact that men are accorded privilege in our society, but it's definately there and I think that our young sons bear the brunt of it. My husband has never been the victim of it, but my son most assuredly has.

I hear things about my son (2.5) and comments directed towards my son which make me cringe far more often than ones about my daughter (9 months). When he was just shy of three months old, someone told him to stay away from her daughter. He was an *infant*. That's the problem I have with this:

Quote:

Can we quit blaming feminism for men's behavior? Of course not all men are predators. BUT how are we to know who is and who isn't?
We're not talking about men here, we're talking about _little boys_. In my case, one very little boy. I'm sick of women treating my _toddler_ like he's a predator. _He's two years old!!_

I'm not blaming feminism for all men's behavior, I'm saying that there is a feminist backlash and that it's affecting my two year old son right now. I'm not saying that feminism is a bad thing at all-- I consider myself a feminist. I just don't think that the goals of feminism can be accomplished by starting with the assumption that men will be pigs unless we tease/cajole/beat it out of them while they're young.

My son is a sweet, loving, sensitive little person. He likes things with wheels and babies, running around in circles and quiet nursies. He's a beautiful, bright human being and he deserves to have people treat him respectfully even though he's got a penis. Male privilege certainly does exist, but it just as certainly doesn't apply to toddlers. Demonizing my baby boy is not going to help your daughters.

Quote:

I personally haven't experienced anyone demonizing my son, and he's fifteen now. But I believe everyone who has related their experiences. So can we discuss raising our sons well and stop demonizing other women while we do it?
I have, and mine is only two. I'm not trying to demonize other women at all, I'm only trying to raise my son in a society that's telling him he has to be a certain, horrible way because he happened to get a Y chromosome.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I'm not saying that feminism is a bad thing at all-- I consider myself a feminist. I just don't think that the goals of feminism can be accomplished by starting with the assumption that men will be pigs unless we tease/cajole/beat it out of them while they're young.
.

Anyone who is TRUELY a feminist would never be making sexist remarks at your son, or your daughter. I can understand the concept of a "backlash" I just resent it being blamed on feminists. Feminism is not about hatred of men, or anyone else for that matter.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Anyone who is TRUELY a feminist would never be making sexist remarks at your son, or your daughter. I can understand the concept of a "backlash" I just resent it being blamed on feminists. Feminism is not about hatred of men, or anyone else for that matter.

You're entitled to that opinion, but you should know that many of the people who make these comments to my son, or refuse to protect him from girls three and four times his size & age are doing it because they think that they're teaching their daughters to be strong and independent.

So who would you blame the backlash on? Is it entirely the fault of the boys themselves, just for being born male?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm baffled that so many people think that feminism is about bringing down men. It is about empowering women. You don't have to believe that all men are pigs in order to work toward that goal. The status quo maintains that men hold the position of power in this culture. Men make up the government, they hold the top positions in corporate America, they make up the law enforcement forces, they make up the military-- all of these fields are dominated by men. Go to the phonebook and randomly set your finger down on a doctor's name, chances are that it will be a male name. The fields dominated by women-- nursing, teaching, food service, domestic work-- pay far less than the traditionally male fields, even the ones that require a post graduate degree. Women make less than men across the board, regardless of career field and also regardless of whether or not the women in question are mothers (mothers make even less). The number one cause of death in a woman's first trimester of pregnancy is homocide. Anyone who argues that women have equal standing in this country can just take a look at the floor of the Senate.

What about the poor men? First of all, men are less likely to live in poverty than women. They will still have more earning potential than women, still have the opportunity to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy, still not be held responsible for the care of children they do have (child support laws are a joke), still be at far less risk of being the victim of a crime than a woman, and still won't be held to the beauty standards women are held to. It is a priviledge to not have to worry about being raped in this country. Think about the last time you took precautions for your personal safety, like walking quickly through a dark parking lot or locking your car door the second you got into your car or driving somewhere at night instead of walking because it wasn't safe? Ask the nearest man when the last time he did something like was. Have a conversation about it. I didn't realize how much more diligent I am about my safety than my husband is until very recently, and it makes me angry. He doesn't have the same level of awareness as I have because he is far less likely to be a victim than I am.

I don't look at little boys and see them as the "enemy", but I see that they are quickly becoming part of the problem. As my kids get older, I have to work faster and be more diligent to try and counter the messages they get from their friends. Boys ride red bikes or black bikes and girls ride pink ones, boys can be doctors and girls can be nurses, boys play basketball and girls watch, boys join the chess club and girls join the choir, boys catch bugs and girls run around screaming at bugs-- the list is endless and I have to sit and talk to him about each and every one. How could I possibly blame these children when I know that they aren't coming up with it on their own? Gender roles are socialized, we aren't born with them.

If you think that feminism is about not caring about men's feelings, then you are mistaken. Of course I care about the feelings of the men I love. However, in the big picture, I'm more concerned about the safety and progress of women. That doesn't mean that I'm unconcerned about men altogether, it just means that empowering women is my priority. It also means that I could give a rat's butt about a man's feelings when he is being sexist. I think that sexism is so ingrained in our society that most men don't even realize it when they are saying something offensive-- that doesn't mean they get a pass. Sometimes my son's feelings are hurt when I tell him, gently, that he is engaging in sexist behavior. We talk about it, I'm never shaming, but he feels bad. The alternative is to not hurt his feelings now and let him grow up thinking that what he's doing and saying is okay thus bringing up another tool of the patriarchy. I'm not going to do that.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

This interesting debate about feminism is interesting to me because what pulled me into this discussion was the word SEXISM. I don't think that feminism has much to do with what I am discussing - I am a feminist - I think women should be treated equally, I think men should respect women and have found many who do. But first and foremost, I am a humanist. I think we should strive towards a community where everyone is treated equally. I know that there is much advocacy to be done on behalf of women - I support it and participate in it. My personal struggle right now is how to deal with people treating my son poorly just because of the man they are afraid he is going to become.

Lets face it - as women born in the United States we are less likely to live in poverty than women in many parts of the world - as our our sons and daughters - should this change how we treat them as children. The knowledge that many of them (male and female) will grow up to work in corporate America and live comfrotable lives on the back of less fortunate folks? We should teach them the right way to live and not hold them accountable for the mistakes that other members of their peer cohort will make before it even happens.

BJ
Barney & Ben

P.S. As an aside - my dh is quite nervous walking across a parking lot at night - as he was shot about eight years ago.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I give up. This is like beating my head against a wall.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

GM- thank you for starting this thread.










I am subscribing so I can go back and read all the posts before adding my thoughts.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

I was following the original thread , and quite interested when it split into two threads. Obviously, sexism is an important topic to think about regardless of if we are raising boys or girls. And, judging by the responses, we seem to think it even more important to examine it as parents of boys. The "girls" thread is only 8 or so responses long. This one is currently on its third page.

I've been pondering this. I think this is why: it is easier to know how we are going to raise girls to feel empowered and strong. We know the things we want to consciously reject and the things that hurt us mothers as girls when we were small. Who doesn't remember being among the last to be picked for teams, looking around and realizing only girls were left? Who doesn't remember the math/science teacher who only called on boys? Who doesn't look at the whole "Princess" trend and go, "ugh", at least on some level, even if they let their daughters play with it? I decided long ago to teach my future daughters how to stand up for themselves and make choices rather than have choices made for them. I never gave much thought to how to raise a boy, other than the fear of "what if he turns out like Frat Boy Who Harassed Me #1?" I knew how I'd fight sexism for my daughters, but hadn't given it much thought for my sons. Now I do. I don't want to operate on the level that, but for my intervention, my son will be a jerk. I want to assume the best of all people, regardless of gender. I don't want to think that my job as a parent is to PREVENT him from becoming a sexist pig. I want to nurture his soul/essence/being/whatever you want to call it and have him be a good person because that's who he is and that's the part that I took care of.

I've been discussing this thread with my dh and made some interesting side steps along the way. One of the things that stands out for me is that it is far easier to teach girls in a gender neutral way. If we teach our daughters to be independent, strong, confident (all traits our society generally ascribes to men), we are essentially "teaching them up." We are giving them skills to ACT MORE LIKE MEN, teaching them things that society already values in humans, those "male traits." If we try to teach our sons gender neutrality, we are basically teaching them to embrace those parts of themselves that are more "feminine," for lack of a better word, things that our society deems Womanly, empathy, caring, gentleness. And, in this particular time and place, Womanly is not good, so we're basically fighting against this machine that tells us it's ok to have our daughters act like boys (boy=good), but not our sons act like girls (girls=bad). Even if, as many of us have discovered, our precious little baby boys start out as sweet as can be and we don't see the boy (general behavior)=good. We see that "male privedge" as something to fight, but it's hard when we acknowledge that we might be raising boys ill-equipt to deal with the general make culture (I remember someone worrying about her son being an easy target for a bully).

No one batted an eye when I dressed my dd in overalls, but if I took my son out in a dress, my ILs would freak. No one cared that I played fire fighter with dd, but my mother just told me that I should cut ds's hair (he's one). I've gotten the "all boy" comments, the "wow, he's so big" even thought dd was the same size at the same ages (and I've got the pictures to prove it). The clothes I dressed dd in were "cute" for her, and those same clothes 3 years later, "make him look so strong."

Dd in her confident/sometimes bossy way is wanting me to come play Store with her. I'll be back later to read more.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

You know Mothra - I feel the same way









I am not sure, do some of you think that you need to explain feminism just because some other posters don't agree with every word everyone has written?

You know I've read The Feminine Mystique, Faludi's "Backlash, the Awakening by Kate Chopin, etc. etc. etc. I GET IT. I DO. Just because I don't agree with everyone who calls themselves a "feminist's" approach to dealing with the problem doesn't mean I am some conservative individual who doesn't get feminism who doesn't understand the struggles of other women and myself in society.

To tell you the truth - I have been so sick over this subject before it ever came up on MDC and the threads the last couple of days have me so upset that this morning somebody made gender related comment about my toddler at the park - this time it was "too bad those blue eyes and curls are wasted on a boy" - I calmly told the boys it was time to go home put them in the car drove them home put an emergency Elmo DVD on the TV, went to have good hard cry in the shower.

This thread is making me a worse mom - both in the amount of time and energy I am spending on it and also because I realized that for the last couple of days I have been trying to keep the boys away from little girls when we are out and about.

I have officially given up - good luck with this thread and your journey to raise more kind, respected, respectful and more importantly HAPPY individuals.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

wow, I couldn't get to the computer for one night
I am a little confused with how this discussion got so polarized so fast..
I haven't read previous threads aluuded to, maybe its connected, i dont know...
anyway, with the few minutes i have now, just wanted to mention some thoughts i had while reading all the posts....
I definitely see white male privilege everyday, but I also see many many strong women of all colors fighting it everyday by the way they live. I consider myself a feminist.
as for a feminist backlash against boys, I don't feel that feminism is the cause of this backlash..... I think feminism has helped our little boys too, as well, as our girls...
BUT there are forces that are less scapegoat-worthy than feminism that trouble me with raising my gentle sensitive boy. I see it all the time, when little boys show weakness, their feelings are often ignored and they are kinda told coldly to "suck it up"... their feelings are often invalidated.
they are taught by society to be aggressive and physical, but I think this is from the mass media, militaristic society that america has become.
I have see MANY times how bigger girls will be very rough and literally run over my little boy, and teh parents do nothing about it. This even happens with some good friends of mine, who are pretty enlightened people about most things, but see the aggression in their 5 yr old as her being independent and willful, and not fitting a submissive stereotype- but she often invades ds' physical space and is very pushy and aggressive- I address that kind of behavoir when ds does that to a girl or boy- I want him to be respectful of everyone.
Thats all i have time for now- I am interested in the OT- sexism and our boys.... arguing whether there is male privlege seems a no brainer for me, it is ingrained in everything, but our little boys are not born that way, and I don't want my sensitive creative loving child to learn to hide that part of him.
of course i have a lot of control with that, who and what he experiences everyday...
well, toddler calling gotta go
interesting discussion


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

You know Mothra - I feel the same way









I am not sure, do some of you think that you need to explain feminism just because some other posters don't agree with every word everyone has written?

You know I've read The Feminine Mystique, Faludi's "Backlash, the Awakening by Kate Chopin, etc. etc. etc. I GET IT. I DO. Just because I don't agree with everyone who calls themselves a "feminist's" approach to dealing with the problem doesn't mean I am some conservative individual who doesn't get feminism who doesn't understand the struggles of other women and myself in society.

To tell you the truth - I have been so sick over this subject before it ever came up on MDC and the threads the last couple of days have me so upset that this morning somebody made gender related comment about my toddler at the park - this time it was "too bad those blue eyes and curls are wasted on a boy" - I calmly told the boys it was time to go home put them in the car drove them home put an emergency Elmo DVD on the TV, went to have good hard cry in the shower.

This thread is making me a worse mom - both in the amount of time and energy I am spending on it and also because I realized that for the last couple of days I have been trying to keep the boys away from little girls when we are out and about.

I have officially given up - good luck with this thread and your journey to raise more kind, respected, respectful and most importantly HAPPY individuals.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I am raising both a daughter and a son and I'm concerned about sexism in all its subtle and not-so-subtle forms.

I have to say that one of the most blatant forms of sexism we have in the United States today is the continued circumcision/sexual mutilation of newborn baby boys.

Sexism begins on the circumstraint. (The god-awful piece of equipment that immobilizes baby boys while their foreskins are ripped and cut off.)

PS. I consider myself a feminist, too, FWIW. Beyond that, though, I'm a humanist.

Sort of off-topic and not, read this article about why circumcision is a feminist issue: (but not JUST a feminist issue)

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

on the subject of sexism and our sons
I think how we live teaches them the most, how we interact with others, how we _re_act to others and to offensive behavoir.... Its impossible to have a magical solution, to somehow figure out the right formula to insure that we raise feminist boys or girls. I have my ideals, my art, my learning, my garden, my breathe, my cooking, my laughter, -the soul stuff of life that I share with my son. He will learn from me what I believe and what I find to be the truth by everyday with me, by all of life and its rhythyms, and sometimes I will need words to explain, and talk about the many feminist concepts that are crucial to the survival of this planet, but mostly, it will be the daily living of life that holds alot of weight into whether or not he will become a respectful person, a person who will naturally speak out when he is witnessing sexist, racist, or homophobic behavoir....
I think he will have his own experiences and lessons that I cannot foresee or control, but if I try my best to keep our deep connection and mutual respect, then I hope that he will find it easy to come to me for advice, or just to have someone to listen to him so that he can work it out with the time and space to do so on his own with his own capabilities.

My son, Steffen is such a sweet, caring, creative, kind boy who naturally is helpful and responsive, who takes time with things, who has a natural thirst for learning and interaction, a lot of the gentle things that society oftens ignores and invalidates in boys.

I'm interested in hearing about others experiences, esp. moms of older boys. Steffen is almost two, and its amazing how much social conditioning is being daily inflicted on him already! So much is so wrong, IMO, the imperialist militarism, the materialism, the disposable everything, the arrogance and rascism amd classism... so many isms so many skisms.. its all part of such a huge problem w/o a name...

Change starts personally within me and how I live my life. Thats all I can control as far as i see.

Just some scattered thoughts and rambling.
I don't care if people disagree with me, lets keep a conversation going!


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

sorry - just had to chime in here - coming off the "mother" thread









I have a big girl and little boy. I wanted to resond to what somebody said about how raising a strong girl is totally respected and desired, and _required_ here on mdc







, but if we did the same things with our boys that we're doing with our strong girls, it could easily be seen as raising violent boys.

For example, my daughter loves to play princess - with her sword! She really likes her sword! She even sleeps with it. I get nods for it all the time - as if it's my doing anyway, 'nother issue there tho.

So we're in the parking lot at her nursery school and a boy her age has a ... sword! My daughter spots it right away and wants to talk all about it - but the boy's mother is trying to hide it in the car because she doesn't want all the other moms, who've noticed by now, to think she's raising a violent boy.

Why does my daughter get to enjoy rampaging, but not her boy? And what message does that send to her boy?

And mostly - I care about misongeny as it touches my son because I honestly think it will be very very difficult for him to *always* be respectful of women. Kids just flub up, they make mistakes, they try on different personas, they go along with the crowd, pop culture takeover of the brain - all of it - I don't think I can mitigate all of the pressure he'll have on him to act the way men often act. Whether it's looking at nasty porn or catcalling or not speaking up ... I just feel very sad when I think of the shame he'll feel when he makes a mistake. We all know how we feel when we've done something we know is wrong - don't we? I mean, is anyone out there perfect? Have any of us *always" spoken up? So I'm all for helping my son know that disrespecting women is wrong - but I think my job is to also to help him recognize and deal with the pressure out there on men/boys to act like jerks - or worse.

And what a can of worms - how will I deal with the "rage" another momma described toward her son when mine is 16 - and some man acts inappropriate with my daughter?

Yuck.

Eve


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momea*

I just feel very sad when I think of the shame he'll feel when he makes a mistake. We all know how we feel when we've done something we know is wrong - don't we?

One of the most important things I want to do as a mother is instill in my children the values that will help him recognize that degrading another person, insulting another person, or treating another person badly is wrong.
For that reason, I won't feel sad if my children feel shame about it, in fact I'll be thrilled that they have a conscience!


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

First of all, I just want to direct everyone's attention to this wonderful and very relevant post in the other thead by sadie sabot (a mother of a daughter fwiw):
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...9&postcount=71

dnr3301, I think you hit the nail on the head


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## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

:bf

Well, I'm not sure how much longer this little man is going to sleep in the wrap, so I'll just post my ideas and come back later to comment on others.

I worry, worry, worry about issues of sexism and how patriarchy will affect my son. I will raise my little boy to know and understand the roots of priviledge. I will raise my little boy as best I can in a non-gender specific manner. My hopes are that he will grow-up to be sensitive, compassionate, expressive, and aware.

Unfortunately, I come from a very sexist family. Even at 11 weeks old we are constantly baraged with "Oh, what a big STRONG BOY!", "He's going to be a lady killer for sure!".







I hadn't planned on dressing him in gendered clothing, but since my DH and I are really struggling financially we have to rely on what people give us for DS's clothing.









When he is older and starts getting into toys and outside-the-home activities, I plan to make all kinds of toys and all kinds of activities available to him. We'll have books which have heroines which are male, female or neither.

And the little guy is waking up now ...


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## Divina (Sep 13, 2003)

(Quote)dnr3301, I think you hit the nail on the head (End quote)

I agree! (Sorry, I've never been able to get the "quote" function to work for short excerpts, don't know why).

For me, raising all of my kids, girl and boys, to be respectful of all other beings, caring and nurturing, strong and capable, all at the same time, is the core of my mothering. Not that I'm always especially good at it, but that's my goal.

My daughter took karate as a child, loved it. My oldest son didn't, hated the shouting and the noise. My mom asked me if Morwynne would take ballet, too (she wasn't interested), but no one seemed to have a problem with Jamie passing on the karate. Both of them took self-defense intensives as teens, and I intend my younger ones to do the same.







(My DD was later mugged while at college by 2 guys. She broke one's nose and they ran off. She says she just instinctively used the self-defense stuff, not karate. I highly recommend some course like Model Mugging to everyone!)

With my two youngest, I feel I have more experience, more awareness, and a partner much more aligned with my parenting ideals, but I have to say my teens have made me incredibly proud of the human beings they are ... so, for those of you with very young kids, I just want to say that it is possible, even with all the stuff we have to deal with, to raise our kids to be the best people they can be. (I didn't say "easy", I said "possible").


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

OK, I am bringing this thread back to life because I have thought a lot about it over the past few days, and there are a couple of things I wanted to say.

1) About feminism:
Feminism is NOT monolithic. There is a plurality of feminist voices.. and those voices are often raised in dissent and debate. So, while the pithy catch phrase that "feminism is the radical belief that women are equal" is very nice... it is also simplistic.
There is a lot of disagreement about what equality actually constitutes.. and how to get there.
So I find the head-banging about having to "explain feminism" kind of frustrating.
Yeah, maybe you DO have to explain it. Or at least YOUR interpretation of it.
Some of the greatest minds in feminism don't have any use for men.
I think it was Catherine Mckinnon who said every act of heterosexual sex is an act of violence.
A poster here even admitted wishing all women were lesbians.
The fact as that those of us who DO love men... be they partners, fathers, brothers or sons... will ALWAYS be accused of being complicit with patriarchy by some of our sisters.
So I think we DO have to explain and define our vision of feminism when we talk about this issue.

2) Patriarchy:
I have come to the conclusion that I do not think projecting my anger at patriarchy onto my son.. or onto other little boys... is a very helpful way to fight patriarchy. I do NOT think that having my son INTERNALIZE my anger at patriarchy in the form of self-hatred or shame is a very helpful way to fight patriarchy. So I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the women here who get more angry at their sons than their daughters.. and with those who look at other little boys with suspicion.. or prefer their sons to play with girls. I am far more interested in EMBRACING boys and teaching them through love and guidance and community.

3) Gender:
I think there has to be some explicit discussion of what kind of world we want to create in terms of gender.
Are we striving for a genderless society, where every child will be raised a "baby X?"
Do we believe gender is a continuum.. and that we should embrace all manifestations? If we do.. then are we not obliged to embrace our stereo-typically "girly" girls.. AS well as our rough and tumble boys? Is ANY sign of testosterone-inspired behavior in boys to be rejected and labeled predatory and harmful to women?

I think this is a pretty big quandry.

I personally intend to follow my child's lead.. while pointing out the alternatives and holding open discussions.

I feel that my job is to help my child grow into HIS authentic self... while encouraging compassion, thoughtfulness and an awareness of the inequalities in the world.. along with a sense of responsibility for creating change.

But no, I am NOT going to turn my boy into a target for my own feelings about patriarchy. I am not going to send him ashamed into the world, apologizing for his penis. And if my sisters reject HIM.. my sweet toddler.. and project THEIR anger at patriarchy on him...

I will find other women who are interested in moving past the anger and into love and healing.
Anger can be righteous. It can serve. It can also distort and harm.

I think it is a perfectly valid question to ask ourselves whether our anger at patriarchy serves us as we raise our sons...
Or whether it is time to channel and transform some of that anger.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

I personally intend to follow my child's lead.. while pointing out the alternatives and holding open discussions.
I feel that my job is to help my child grow into HIS authentic self... while encouraging compassion, thoughtfulness and an awareness of the inequalities in the world.. along with a sense of responsibility for creating change.
I have been thinking so much about this thread and reading all the posts with great interest so Asherah I am glad you brought it back to life.

So many things that I have been thinking about I have not been to verbalize but I think Asherah hit to my internal core which is that I think I do need to follow my sons lead at this age. My son is not a "boy's boy" in the sense that he embraces both the "rough and tumble" type of play as well as what many would consider "girly girl" type of play. His pre-school is predominantly girls but I am not sure if that impacts him as much as the fact my husband and I have followed his lead regarding his interests at home. He has a baby doll he nurtures and he has dump trucks for the sandbox. The biggest comment I get about my son is how he is so empathetic to others. I am always a little taken aback when it is said with surprise, as if boys are not typically empathetic.

As he gets older I want to continue to follow his lead. I don't want him ashamed for whom he is nor what he decides to do. I cannot look at my son with anger for what his gender does or does not represent. I can only look at him with love and teach him to be the best person he can be which is to respect himself and to respect and understand the power society has given him.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

What Asherah said!!!!!!!!!


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Great post, Asherah.









I was just thinking about something else last night... About how women used to be called "the fairer sex." We couldn't vote, own property, get a divorce, say no to sex with our husbands, control our own reproduction, wear pants, walk alone at night, etc etc etc... but there was this Victorian ideal that women were better than men - nobler, kinder, gentler, almost transcendent. Men were understood to be brutes, who needed the "civilizing" influence of women. Of course all this rhetoric was just machinery used to keep the oppression in place. Men had to "protect" women from dirty nasty things like politics and education. And obviously this was totally class-and-race-based, since "the fairer sex" never applied to women of color and working class women.

My whole point is, that when we talk about people today viewing our little boys as predatory, maybe what we are seeing is not twisted feminism so much as a continuation of those old Victorian myths.

I think it's relevant because this mythology is one way that the patriarchy convinces women to enshrine our own oppression, to be invested in it. When women characterize boys - even sweet little innocent boys - as violent predators, they are securing their own position on the pedestal as the gentler, fairer sex. Some women are extremely attached to that pedestal. But in doing so, they are actually strengthening patriarchy by encouraging those boys to _be_ violent predators, and at the same time tightening their own chains that bind them to the pedestal.

Am I making sense?


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I really want to respond to asherah's post, since quite a bit of it was directed at things I said. There are many points she made I want to comment on, but I have not figured out the mulitple quote thing, so I hope my post makes sence...

First... The "pithy quote" is "...the radical idea that women are PEOPLE" not
"equal" as you put. Yes it is simplistic your right, but I still like it.

My personal "head banging" was not about having to "explain feminism", it's about people NOT READING everything I write, and then taking things I write out of context and getting pissy about them. I feel like some of that is happening here.

I was the one who said I wish all women were lesbians...that was supposed to be a joke- as a single lesbian, I'm finding that single lesbians are hard to come by... totally a joke, which is hard to pull off in writing and you can't here me chuckle... :LOL there..that works!









I also am one of the people who said I prefer my son to play with girls...that is actually my own mis-statement because when I think about it, the gils that he plays with are his sisters, we don't have a lot of playdates, so I think I really just like us to be together as a family, or with other likeminded families who hold the same values as we do.

I am also the one who said that I find myself subconsiously getting more angry at my son with some of his actions. I ALSO said, that, I NEVER take it out on him, and that I DON"T like that I feel that, and I'd like it to change. I actually don't think it's because he is a male in general, I think it's becuase he is a male who looks physically identical to the male that I grew up with (my brother) who severly abused me. So if he shows agression towards me, I tend to get angrier than I might if it were one of my other children. A whole other topic in on of itself, but either way..I DON"T like that I feel that, and I work to change those feelings every day. I never want my son to feel self-hatred or shame for who he is. My sons an awsome little dude, he's my buddy, and he's mommy's little boy all the way...

I do believe gender is a continuum. I do embrace all manifestations. What I don't embrace is hatred and violence of ANYONE.

"I think it is a perfectly valid question to ask ourselves whether our anger at patriarchy serves us as we raise our sons... "

That is a valid question.... I honestly don't see how my anger at patriarchy negatively effects my son. I fight for his rights as a human, as much as I fight for mine, or for his sisters. What I'm fighting against is inequality, hatred, domination and violence. How can that not benefit him?


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

cmb, I think you brought up an important point which I hope we can discuss w/o flames.

I too find myself feeling surprisingly angry at my baby. He's 16 mo so just now starting to be really assertive, and effective in his assertiveness. Sometimes if he hits, grabs, or pushes me I feel anger flare up in me in a really unexpected way. I have this instinctive reaction like "HEY! NOBODY PUSHES ME AROUND!" Of course I immediately check it and deal with him gently. But still it's there. I do wonder if I would react the same way if he were a girl. I think I probably would not (altho who knows?). I think I feel more anger because he is male and altho I don't share your history of abuse, I, like most women, have plenty of experiences of being pushed around literally and figuratively by males.

Of course it is wrong to take that out on my sweet little boy, and I don't.

But it would also be wrong to push that feeling down and pretend it doesn't exist. The question is how to check it and transform it into something positive?


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
But it would also be wrong to push that feeling down and pretend it doesn't exist. The question is how to check it and transform it into something positive?

I feel lucky that I "know" what button it is that gets pushed, because I think it helps me be able to put it aside, and move on.
The possitive for me is to look at my sweet boy, and know that he is NOT that demented







I grew up with. He is the sweetest, kindest brother in the whole world, and the best son ever (ok, so I'm biased..)!


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

thanks for bringing this thread back, very good points....
I also do not want to repress my anger at all the F-uped facets of patriarchy around in everything, but I do not want to direct it at my son or somehow subconsciously be sending him messages that he will be internalising that somehow he is "bad" or guilty just because he has a penis, but i will be explaining privilege to him- but not just white male privilege, also "western" american privilege, etc. There is sooo much of a larger issue than just the dualistic male/female thing.... although of course, patriarchy is a huge part of the global issues.
Now that I've thought about what some of ya all have written about when our anger flares up w/ our sons, I realised a key part that I hadn't thought about before. When I get some anger is when I just need a few minutes to myself, to carry on some uninterupted thought, to materialise an idea in my head about a future art work, to put something down in a sketchbook, and steffen will have a mama emergency RIGHT then, and I get this anger inside like "I just need a few minutes!I can have my own time, too somtimes!" and then I realize he is just a toddler (even tho its getting easier as he is getting a little older) and cool down and of course I dont try and direct it at him, I take a deep breathe etc. BUT I just realzied that that anger that comes up so easily has come from issues with my Dad, how he alwasy tried to snuff out the art creative side of me in many ways and I have some real painful memories of different things that have happened with him over that (and we've only gotten further apart over the years...) so , that really gives me some food for thought.....


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Actually, CMB123... I really was not addressing you personally.. except when it came to the Lesbian quote..

How on earth would I have known you were a single lesbian and joking?

I get the joke... but I stick to my point... there ARE those in the feminist movement who DO ultimately think I am complicit with patriarchy for loving men. And, I don't discount what they say..... those are often the voices that force me to push my own boundaries... but it puts me between a rock and a hard place at times, because I do love men.

Beyond that, though.. I was musing over the entire thread, not singling out one person.

I also NEVER suggested we repress our anger at patriarchy. I said I think it is a valid question to ask how and whether that anger SERVES us when it comes to the raising of our sons... and to consider whether we should move toward TRANSFORMING that anger.. at least when it comes to dealing with our boys.. and other people's boys.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Am I making sense?


Yes, a great deal of sense.. very interesting point.
This stuff is COMPLEX.


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
For example, just about every day we walk through a gauntlet of cat-calling day laborers. They have to stand there all day, waiting for their underpaid demeaning jobs, I sympathesize.

This is so totally OT but can I just say that I totally love that you think about this? I do. I love that the point is that what they are doing is offensive but that you are still feeling where they are coming from. Ah, so nice!

I know that people hate the "I didn't read all the replies but..." but I didn't read all the replies. But...

My son is 3.5 and I am definitely raising him to be a feminist. Mainly we just do this in a matter of fact way. He is way into firetrucks and all things related, so we always talk about firefighters not firemen. Luckily when my MIL took him to the fire station there was a female firefighter there!

The other week at LLL a little girl brought barbies and Noah wanted to play with one. She said "These are girl toys." I was about speechless. I said "Noah likes to play with them too." And he did.

I think it is very important for boys to be feminists.

Oh man, I just read some of the topic review and I have got to read the whole thread. See I don't think I have this anger towards men. I grew up with really strong women role models (not saying you all didn't) and I really think I always felt that I was as good, if not better, than any guy out there. [don't take this to mean i don't have issues. i do, but just not about guys being smarter or more capable than me.]


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
I also NEVER suggested we repress our anger at patriarchy. I said I think it is a valid question to ask how and whether that anger SERVES us when it comes to the raising of our sons... and to consider whether we should move toward TRANSFORMING that anger.. at least when it comes to dealing with our boys.. and other people's boys.

Wow.









Edited to add: I keep trying to add to this, but it just stands on its own.


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

yes, good point, but what does "transforming our anger" actually look like, what does that mean in practical terms?


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

ok, i thought about it for a few moments, and one idea I have is to understand how my son can help to break the cycle, by my including him in the struggle, through activism but daily kind of activism, how every decison, who and what we give money to , what news we believe, what we choose to do with our time, how everything has some level of responsibility, not in a obligation boring work way, but seeing everything in a larger perspective, doing things intentionally and consciously... I think allowing him to be conscious and explain to me how he feels and then respect him with discussion and offer my perspective.... but not contain his expereince. allow him to be in the world and also learn our real history not whats being taught in history books in most schools....
hmmm I am not doing a good job of explaing this, i need to think further, but maybe theres a kernel of sense in there somewhere.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I don't know.
I don't have all this figured out.

I do know that one can do only so much with anger. Anger can be a powerful force for transformation. But if you STAY there.. and only there... it tends to turn destructive.

And I do know that I don't believe raising boys out of/in anger is going to do much to create the world I want for my son.

I don't think viewing other boys with suspicion is going to help my son create trusting, healthy relationships with either men OR women.

So I am wondering if I can fight patriarchy from a place of love and hope instead of always from anger.

Can I start to see boys as allies and agents of change?
Can I treat them as my hope for a different future.. instead of as potential predators (not that I see them that way anyway.. but others seem to).
Wouldn't they be more likely to turn out trustworthy if I start by trusting them.. and giving them safe space to be gentle, to cry.. AND to roughhouse without judging them?

I don't have all the answers. Heck, I hardly have any answers. I am totally baffled by the whole gender question... But I have learned that the paradigm I have always been comfortable with doesn't necessarily serve me as the mother of a boy.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
So I am wondering if I can fight patriarchy from a place of love and hope instead of always from anger.

Can I start to see boys as allies and agents of change?
Can I treat them as my hope for a different future.. instead of as potential predators (not that I see them that way anyway.. but others seem to).
Wouldn't they be more likely to turn out trustworthy if I start by trusting them.. and giving them safe space to be gentle, to cry.. AND to roughhouse without judging them?

.

I definately think we can do all of those things. I see hope everyday when I interact with my son. When we get together with our family friends with boys and there's a whole group of them together (from age 4-19) all raised by feminist parents, and I see the difference in them. They are growing up with parents who have been doing the things YOU have said you hope to do.

I think transforming anger into something positive is what many of us are doing already... living differently than the mainstream, following our instincts as mothers, listening to our children, living intentionally according to the values we hold dear, sharing those values with our children, working toward change one day at a time.


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
I don't know.
I don't have all this figured out.

I do know that one can do only so much with anger. Anger can be a powerful force for transformation. But if you STAY there.. and only there... it tends to turn destructive.

And I do know that I don't believe raising boys out of/in anger is going to do much to create the world I want for my son.

I don't think viewing other boys with suspicion is going to help my son create trusting, healthy relationships with either men OR women.

So I am wondering if I can fight patriarchy from a place of love and hope instead of always from anger.

Can I start to see boys as allies and agents of change?
Can I treat them as my hope for a different future.. instead of as potential predators (not that I see them that way anyway.. but others seem to).
Wouldn't they be more likely to turn out trustworthy if I start by trusting them.. and giving them safe space to be gentle, to cry.. AND to roughhouse without judging them?

I don't have all the answers. Heck, I hardly have any answers. I am totally baffled by the whole gender question... But I have learned that the paradigm I have always been comfortable with doesn't necessarily serve me as the mother of a boy.

ohhh totally, I know where you're coming from. I certainly do not see little boys as predators, I am continually amazed at how gentle, sweet, helpful, loving, and cooperative my son is. It saddens me to know that all boys are most likely like this when they are young, and somehow they get conditioned otherwise, but I def. have hope that things are changing. I do not have a lot of anger always in my life. I got a lot of that dealt with in my teens and twenties. BUT I still have righteous anger at all the F-up situations in this world and I won't ignore that, that will not help me or my son, or create a better world. I am working on transforming that anger, too, in a way it inspires me to always be conscious and question everything, not just go along with the status quo....
I really irrates me when EVERYDAY some stranger (or someone we know sometimes unfortunately) says stupid stuff about "how boys are" it jsut drives me crazy! I used to just roll my eyes and didnt have the energy to say what I thought, but lately I've decided that I HAVE To!, b/c ds hears it. He is being conditioned by people saying things, like how if he likes to get dirty and play in puddles, he is "a proper boy", and that he is so active "all boy" , or that b/c he likes trucks lately, that makes him some kind of valid boy. it just drives me nuts! i know most times stuff just slips out, and the people aren't sexist in general (sometimes), but I still need to point it out...
Theres also more insidious stuff too, about his emotions and feelings that I try to be conscious of. Like I got caught off guard when his grandparents were visiting and grandpa was sitting on the couch and steffen really needed a mama nurseing break to get grounded again and he like to lay down on the couch w/ me to nurse sometimes and he went over and pulled grandpa off and then, tried to get me to get me up on the couch and grandpa grabbed him and starting roughhousing, and steffen was not happy with this, and tried to get away, but grandpa just saw it as part ogf the game, and kinda overpowered him and jokingly was like "where you going/!" and of course steffen couldn't get away and got very upset, and started to cry. Grandpa didn't take his feelings seriously, he just laughed. Then I grabbed steffen and we nursed and he was fine, but still shaken up. He wasnt used to this mandatory roughhousing or being denied nursing, even if only for a minute.... But I saw in that case and others how esp. grandpa doesnt take feelings seriously. when ds would get upset, he would joke and rough house, never just let him be....
and ds has never liked roughhousing, when he is around other kids doing it, he just is still and maintains his space, he seems to not understand it, which is how i've been too as a kid. theres too many other things that interest him. he loves to be outside all the time and be active, just not into roughhousing, and i;m kinda surpriesed when people say its something "that boys just do"

anyway- thats my rant for the day!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I do think we need to compare the pain and consider the pain our boys are going through. This pain is what they carry into adulthood. Us not tending to boys pain is why we have men than cannot deal with their pain.

This pain is why more men are sexual predators. This pain leads to more men being killed and to kill. This pain is why men are 4 more times likely to commit suicide.

Most feminist talk just about violence against women. All though I think it is important to address these issues we also need to address the issue of violence against men. Men are killing men at higher rates than women. I think it we can crack into the clues against male on male violence we will have a major break through against violence on women. Our sons are more likely to be killed by another male than our daughters.

Mothra talks about minority women being hit in all directions but what about minority men? Who is filling our prisons? Minority males. It is not only poverty that is causing this but sexist expectations to perform.

I think once we start acknowledging and dealing with what boys go through we will make better men, we must understanding their frustrations and fears. There is a portion of men that are women beaters because of their fears of rejection and being alone. They do anything to obtain control/power so they won't be alone. My father beat my mom. He does not beat his second wife, why? Because he (they) has learned and understands his fear. He understands how his fear came about and why he felt he needed to control things. He is afraid of being alone. He always felt isolated and alone.

I am not saying girls and boys go through the same thing. I don't think their experiences really can be compared but they both desperately need to be understood.

Less violent society always have been societies that felt secure. I think is one key to breaking cycles of violence. Is giving both sexes security. Men do no only feel they don't measure up to other men, but very importantly they worry about measuring up to women. So it is not just as simple as changing male society (patriarchy). We also have to change women and what they expect from men.

Men/boys are asked and expected to perform and to prove themselves financially and/or physically. Women/girls (I am going to start using males and females to simplify) are as much at fault for this as men are. Overwhelming amount of females still expect the guys to pay for the date to be at least financially superior (or have potential for financial superiority over other males). If you look in high schools females are more likely to give attention to males that prove their superiority by sport/competitions or financially. We need to help our daughter not get hooked into looking at the physical and financial potentials (superiority) of males because it sets the expectation on males to perform and isolate their selves in what is or modern patriarchy. We have to guide our boys through the girls that reject them because they are the sensitive guys, nerds, et. I think we all understand rejection. I think society has over looked male rejection and how it affect males for the long term. How it makes them insecure, lonely, isolated, and depressed.

I think we also need to understand that sexism against males is different than females. Young males are more often put on drugs for ADD/ADHD. Young males get penalize more often for aggressive behavior (male aggression is using physical. Until recently female aggression by verbal and emotional needs have been ignored.). Society is just now start to deal with bulling, first this was only the typical male form of bulling. It is just now we are starting to deal with the typical female version of bulling, verbal and emotional. These things are because of our own sexist views, things that like another poster said Victorian issues.

Young men are more often followed around stores and harassed by police and security. Why? Is it a sexist belief that men will steal more often. (Which with what I am discovering men and women still different things.)

A grown man will more often not win custody of children for the sole fact he is male. Males are told in court they cannot possibly raise their daughters. But you don't hear this towards females not being able to raise their sons. Custodial mothers have more power to get a dead beat dad than a custodial fathers.

Try to be a custodial father and get WIC. WIC's system can be very sexist.

There is sexism in our Medicare/Medicaid system. My brother got a vasectomy through the tax payer's system, at one point, he was told by his case worker just have his wife do it. This is not only sexism against his wife but him. He is being a responsible male but our system made it hard for him. Our system favors women on getting sterilized. Is this women's fault? NO!! Is this men's fault? NO!! It is both sexist fault.

Males are expected to give their life for our safety and protection, the existence of a draft is a perfect example of sexism against males. If a male does not register he can be thrown in jail, denied federal monies for grants, drivers license, federal jobs, et. If there was a draft that did this against only women we would say it is sexist. For women to be truly empowered we need to be held to the same accountability. I personally would like to see draft registration system completely demolished but the point is it is sexist to only have one sex accountable this way.

There is sexism in how males often choose jobs. Males are expected to provide for their families. This forces males to take jobs that are more likely to kill them. We acknowledge the sexism in low paying jobs for females but what about the sexism in men being more likely to die on the job supporting his family.

We talk about the sexism in pharmaceutical/medical about not studying women but what about the sexism that men are/were expected to be the guinea pigs of science? Or the sexism of funding for studying cancers. Males are far more likely to die from prostate cancer than females of breast cancer but breast cancer research is funded more. The sexism of allowing circumcision. It was mention about women's body being at hostage what about our little males? Males are still likely to die at least 7 years younger than woman, yet nobody is up in arms about this (I am very disturbed by this because there is racism and sexism against men in this issue.) Please understand I am deeply worried about my daughters getting breast and/or ovarian cancer but it scares me that my son could get ignored. We promote women's health. We have a woman's health department but not a men's one, yet men die at younger ages. I am frighten my father was given a Viagra prescription prostate cancer. We women have every right to be angry and fight against a system that won't pay for birth control or look into female sexual dysfunction but at the same time we need to be afraid for our male's health. Males are more likely not be taught about testicular cancer self checks. Media teaches females about breast self checks but we ignore our males need to learn about testicular self checks Why is a female breast exam any more important? This ignoring and ignorance is caused by sexism against men.

Society has been addressing sexism in schools against females but what about males? There is enough brain science that proves the brain differences between males and females. This affects learning. Young males are biologically slower than females when it comes to skills of writing and reading yet these issues have not been addressed? Why because it is against little males. We talk about female science and math deficiencies in schools but were is the mentioning of male deficiencies in reading and writing? It is not being mention because it is a male issue, ignoring an issue because of it being just a male issue is a form of sexism.

We are empowering females against date rape. We are working hard against sexploitation of girls but what about our boys? Our society makes it ok for young teen males to have sex with older woman. They are gaining experience we do not acknowledge the fact how this can harm them. That is wrong, and it is a sexist view. I saw a cover of a magazine (Teen People I think) today and it had a teen actor/singer with a title "What turns him on". I could see the uproar if it was a teen girl with that title. It is not only men making it ok for young males to be sexually active but women also. It totally ignores that emotional issues male teens have with sex. We totally ignore how early and/or unwanted sex effects our males. We know how it affects our girls but sadly miss how it affects our boys.

I see sexism like racism a river flowing in all directions. Until we address all the issues and empower all the people then we will truly have a better society. It is not just as simple as looking at the wrongs against one sex. It is not just looking about the wrongs caused by one sex. Nor is it as simple as looking at the wrongs against males. It is many issues that are deeply intertwine with each other.

I think many feminist fail to see how males need to be empowered. They need to be empowered to show emotions. They need to be empowered to say no I want to be a family man and put them first. They need to feel safe, like women need to feel safe. I think understanding male fear will help us make change. I think understanding how males feel pressure to perform by females and other males will help us understand why so many males are angry, violent, and suicidal.

I think if we take time to understand how males feel trapped and isolated by other males will only help us. Males might have an business advantage on the golf course but this supposed advantage is also isolating. They can mention they are getting divorce yet not share emotions much less work through emotions on the golf course. Were a female would be more likely to allow this emotional freedom. If a female could not do this on the golf course she could in other female circles. Male circles are more shut up and buck up.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I have to say I do fear for my son being viewed as a predator. He is a gentle boy. He is 10.5 and he loves babies. We were at a children’s consignment shop today. There were 3 newborns. My daughters ooohhhhed and awwwwed them. The owners daughter did also. When my son came near these babies the mother pulled the babies closer in/away from my son. I then heard one mom tell the other that something is not right with him. (He is a boy so he should not like babies).


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)




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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Another super long post, and technologically retarded me not knowing how to do the quote thing.

Marsupialmom, about the only thing I agree with you on is that we need to work with our sons as much as we work with our daughters.

I will admit, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for much of the other stuff, barring the cancer issues, and minority men being targets.

I will not accept any excuse for men who are sexual preditors, or beat their wives (or anyone else) especially the excuse that it's the womans fault!!!! I don't care how emotionally stunted, or if they don't feel "safe", or if their wife is a jerk, or if the woman was wearing a short skirt....IT'S WRONG!!


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Marsupialmom said it perfectly.







To think that women are the only ones that face sexism is pure arrogance.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

cmb, I don't think Marsupial was making excuses. Do you believe that violent, predatory , and abusive men are born or developed? If you believe they are just born that way, then I guess there's nothing to talk about. But if you believe they are socialized that way, then there is a WHOLE LOT to talk about in terms of what causes those problems and how we can prevent them. ITA w/ Marsupial - the socialization that males are not allowed to express their feelings or taught how to deal w/ them in a healthy manner is a big factor. That is absolutely a feminist issue. How is that "making excuses" or "blaming the victim"?

cmb, I'm curious why you don't have sympathy around the other stuff. I wouldn't want the other stuff to take focus away from women's issues, which have been so severely neglected for so long, but does that mean the other stuff is not important or painful or unjust? I feel like I'm missing something in your thought process, so please elucidate.

Marsupial I do agree w/ everything you said. (Except the custody thing. The fact is that when men actually fight for custody they are much more likely to get it. Probably because they tend to have more money and can afford better lawyers, in additin to a sexist system that sees women as weak, irrational, etc.) That was a really enlightening post.

I don't see this as an either/or at all. I am very concerned about all those things as a feminist. I want to work against sexism in all its forms. I can be outraged and fight against all the injustices on your list at the same time as being outraged and fighting against sexism against females. I can understand that males suffer from all those injustices on your list as understanding that males have an unavoidable systemic privilege in this society. I hope to teach my son to recognize and call sexism out in all its forms, including his own privilege. I hope that makes sense.

I also wanted to agree w/ Musing above -- I always say the best way to turn anger into a positive force is thru activism, and I do. I would add that one really really really important thing I think I can do for my son is to have close platonic male friends (to show him grown men who I love and trust and can have emotional intimacy with) AND to call them out on their inevitable sexist b.s. I do have several close platonic male friends, who I have, on many occasions, called out on their sexist b.s. It is super hard. But it wouldn't be a true friendship if I couldn't do that. And when my ds is old enough to understand, it will be absolutely priceless for him to see grown men actively struggling with their sexism. That's the kind of role model our kids need.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Another super long post, and technologically retarded me not knowing how to do the quote thing.

I will not accept any excuse for men who are sexual predators, or beat their wives (or anyone else) especially the excuse that it's the woman's fault!!!! I don't care how emotionally stunted, or if they don't feel "safe", or if their wife is a jerk, or if the woman was wearing a short skirt....IT'S WRONG!!

I am not making excuses. I just think or predators, violent men, jerks are not born that way. They are made that way. And the last time I looked around it is not only men raising our children. There comes a point that it is only the male's personal responsibility. But I am concerned how they got from point A to point B, this is everybody's (both sexes) fault. When we understand why we can prevent the abuse/violence. If we don't understand why so many boys are failing in reading and writing skills we cannot have these boys turn into men that can hold jobs that support their families. If we do not acknowledge that are boys are frustrated and made to feel worthless by our school systems they will turn into frustrated and scared men.

I am also concerned about how violent women are made. I am concerned about the woman that just takes the violence/abuse not only of men but of other women.

I don't think addressing one issue of a problem sexism (women's) is going to cure our worlds ills. I am going to re-use the example of slavery (it might not be the best but the only one I can think of at the moment). If the north had said it is ok not use Africans but you can still use Indians we still would have a problem of slavery. Or if we allowed indentured servitude (a form of slavery) we would still have a problem of slavery. If I sat here and said we abolished slavery with the Civil War so it no longer concerns us totally ignores modern slavery and how it affects us.

As for feeling safe is not just for males but females. If a male is has freedom to express himself he is less likely to have pent up anger that he takes out on women or another man. If a women feels safe the same thing will happen. More often that not a woman that is not afraid of having her food/life line removed is won't put up with crap. There are exceptions. There is a portion of women (self supporting) that will stay with an abusive man because they are afraid of being alone. So I just don't believe in dealing with ONE issue. People do odd things out of fear.

******
Now as for quoting there is a button towards the bottom of this post that will say quote. It will put up 2 sets brackets like this [ ] In the first it will say quote=my name in the last it says / quote. If you type these out you can quote various sections.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
cmb, I don't think Marsupial was making excuses. Do you believe that violent, predatory , and abusive men are born or developed? If you believe they are just born that way, then I guess there's nothing to talk about. But if you believe they are socialized that way, then there is a WHOLE LOT to talk about in terms of what causes those problems and how we can prevent them. ITA w/ Marsupial - the socialization that males are not allowed to express their feelings or taught how to deal w/ them in a healthy manner is a big factor. That is absolutely a feminist issue. How is that "making excuses" or "blaming the victim"?

The reason for the "making excuses" remark was from the part where she said her Dad beat her Mom, but not his new wife, because now he feels "safe" It came off as "it's ok, he had a reason" to me.
I absolutely believe that violent, predatory, and abusive men are developed. And I absolutely agree that it is a feminist issue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerillamama*
cmb, I'm curious why you don't have sympathy around the other stuff. I wouldn't want the other stuff to take focus away from women's issues, which have been so severely neglected for so long, but does that mean the other stuff is not important or painful or unjust? I feel like I'm missing something in your thought process, so please elucidate.

The post had a very "blame the women for the men's wrongs" and "it's not their fault" kinda feel to me at the time I read it. Marsupialmom's last post, convinces me this was not the case, I must of had my panties in a bunch this morning (note to self, no going on MDC before coffee)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerillamama*
I don't see this as an either/or at all. I am very concerned about all those things as a feminist. I want to work against sexism in all its forms. I can be outraged and fight against all the injustices on your list at the same time as being outraged and fighting against sexism against females. I can understand that males suffer from all those injustices on your list as understanding that males have an unavoidable systemic privilege in this society. I hope to teach my son to recognize and call sexism out in all its forms, including his own privilege. I hope that makes sense.

Yes that makes sense. Couln't have said it better.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerillamama*
I always say the best way to turn anger into a positive force is thru activism, and I do.

YES!!!!!!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
Now as for quoting there is a button towards the bottom of this post that will say quote. It will put up 2 sets brackets like this [ ] In the first it will say quote=my name in the last it says / quote. If you type these out you can quote various sections.

Wahoooo!!! Did you see my last post!!! I'm so dang excited!!!!!!!!! THANKS!!

If you didn't see it in my last post, I'm totally with you. Thanks for the clarification.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Nice quoting action, cmb! (I especially love it when you quote me *flutters eyelashes* )


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Especially when I'm quoting you AND agreeing with you right?


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

My english is not good/advanced enough for me to participate in this discussion.. I know exactly what I want to say, but not quite how to say it.. :LOL

Soooo, I will just say THANK YOU to Asherah and Marsupialmom for writing everything I feel and think about this topic. Amazing posts, ladies!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
The reason for the "making excuses" remark was from the part where she said her Dad beat her Mom, but not his new wife, because now he feels "safe" It came off as "it's ok, he had a reason" to me.
I absolutely believe that violent, predatory, and abusive men are developed. And I absolutely agree that it is a feminist issue.

First you learned to quote!!!! WOO HOO!!! LOL

You need to understand my father's journey to feeling safe. It was not my step-mom's doing it was his own doing but with the help of his wife. The for most thing she did was NOT PUT UP WITH IT. She put him in the position of having to figure out his problems and supported him. She in this process learned how to deal with her own demons. They learned how their fears controlled many of the negative behaviors. She learned to fight fair, this does not mean walk on egg shells but argue fairly. Their marriage is not perfect, but we are all imperfect people. It was not like my step-mom came in and puff everything was ok, it was a long journey. It was dealing with issues and understanding were his fears and actions were coming from. This is because my step-mom is not abusive like my mom is.

My father was very wrong for beating there is no excuse for it, he is very sorry about his behavior. At the same time you have to understand that as physically abusive my father was my mom was emotionally abusive and manipulative (actually at times I do wonder if she wasn't the more abusive person). She could not beat him with fist but she could beat the hell out of him with her words and actions. At one point in time I thought this was just symptoms of being a battered wife, then I had my son and grew to see my mom in a different light. I have started questioning her behavior and things that happen. My mom is still an emotional abuser and manipulator. Neither abuse is right both leave deep and ever lasting scars. I can see my mom's fears and insecurities now. I can see how unsafe she feels(now and then) but she needs to take responsibility for her actions and quit blaming other people. At a 31 year old woman looking back into my parents marriage they are *both* at fault for it all. There is just too much to try to blame it all on my father.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
There is just too much to try to blame it all on my father.

I'm SURE there is. So many families live with that kind of disfunction. It's nice to hear when someone can work on their sh*t and get out of it, and change their behavior as your father has.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

I have a small fetal boy living in me right now who NEVER seems to stop moving so right now, it feels like he and I are living in a little secret world where I know he thinks and feels and exists right now.

And I can't help thinking of a night 6 years ago when his father and I were lying in bed together and he was in the depths of a very deep clinical depression. I asked him to tell me about the saddest day he remembered in his life because this was one of those times when he needed someone to stay "down" with him, not to try to "pull him up."

He told me about his grandfather's funeral. His grandfather did not have a "good" death and he felt tremendous guilt over that. He was in medical school at the time and so angry about how dumb the system around death is in the U.S., how stupid people are about death in this country (even very smart people who just seem to get into their 50s thinking death is NEVER going to visit them personally and therefore never needs to be dealt with).

Anyway, he was standing over his grandfather's casket and a few tears came to his eyes. His father came up to him and said, "Hey, buck up kid. We don't cry, remember?"

DH is named for his grandfather. His grandfather was there for every significant event of his life. It washis grandfather that DH went to to open the letter about whether or not he got into medical school.

His death demanded its tears and DH was not allowed to shed them. Even now, although he feels things deeply it is incredibly difficult for him to cry. Every time I find him holding our daughter and marveling at her with tears streaming down his face, I rejoice that he has allowed himself one way to get those tears out.

I want my daughter to have the freedom to get PISSED at this world. And I want my son to have the freedom to mourn.

Jen


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

What a moving story, Jen. It brought tears to my eyes just reading it.

That must have been so, so hard for you DH..


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I do think we need to compare the pain and consider the pain our boys are going through. This pain is what they carry into adulthood. Us not tending to boys pain is why we have men than cannot deal with their pain.

I agree with that.

Quote:

This pain is why more men are sexual predators. This pain leads to more men being killed and to kill. This pain is why men are 4 more times likely to commit suicide.
I don't quite agree with that...I think men have been allowed to get away with these behaviors for centuries, so haven't really bothered to learn other ways to deal with pain. That, and they don't want to be "sissies", you know?

Quote:

Most feminist talk just about violence against women. All though I think it is important to address these issues we also need to address the issue of violence against men.
Well yes; I would guess the thinking was, women are victims of violence by men. The law doesn't care. We as women have to take our limited resources and try to STOP this violence against us. I do believe that as times change, as more resources and knowledge becomes available, women are doing more to address mens violence in general. Do you understand the timeline here?

Quote:

Men do no only feel they don't measure up to other men, but very importantly they worry about measuring up to women. So it is not just as simple as changing male society (patriarchy). We also have to change women and what they expect from men.
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!

Quote:

Overwhelming amount of females still expect the guys to pay for the date to be at least financially superior (or have potential for financial superiority over other males).
Maybe because men generally make more than women?

Quote:

If you look in high schools females are more likely to give attention to males that prove their superiority by sport/competitions or financially. We need to help our daughter not get hooked into looking at the physical and financial potentials (superiority) of males because it sets the expectation on males to perform and isolate their selves in what is or modern patriarchy. We have to guide our boys through the girls that reject them because they are the sensitive guys, nerds, et. I think we all understand rejection. I think society has over looked male rejection and how it affect males for the long term. How it makes them insecure, lonely, isolated, and depressed.
Yep, there are two sides to that coin.

Quote:

A grown man will more often not win custody of children for the sole fact he is male. Males are told in court they cannot possibly raise their daughters. But you don't hear this towards females not being able to raise their sons. Custodial mothers have more power to get a dead beat dad than a custodial fathers.
This may have been true in the past, but it's certainly not true now. Men who want custody generally get it, regardless of other issues.

Quote:

Try to be a custodial father and get WIC. WIC's system can be very sexist.
I have no experience here, and have heard no anecdotes.

Quote:

Males are expected to give their life for our safety and protection, the existence of a draft is a perfect example of sexism against males. If a male does not register he can be thrown in jail, denied federal monies for grants, drivers license, federal jobs, et. If there was a draft that did this against only women we would say it is sexist. For women to be truly empowered we need to be held to the same accountability. I personally would like to see draft registration system completely demolished but the point is it is sexist to only have one sex accountable this way.
I disagree with you here, women have fought for decades for the right to fight in the military. The fact that men can be drafted and women can't, at this point, is a government issue. And I do agree with you in that I don't think there should be a draft anyway.

Quote:

There is sexism in how males often choose jobs. Males are expected to provide for their families. This forces males to take jobs that are more likely to kill them. We acknowledge the sexism in low paying jobs for females but what about the sexism in men being more likely to die on the job supporting his family.
I think this is acknowledged. There are women who want those jobs, but can't get them; or are harassed off the job.

Quote:

We talk about the sexism in pharmaceutical/medical about not studying women but what about the sexism that men are/were expected to be the guinea pigs of science? Or the sexism of funding for studying cancers. Males are far more likely to die from prostate cancer than females of breast cancer but breast cancer research is funded more. The sexism of allowing circumcision. It was mention about women's body being at hostage what about our little males? Males are still likely to die at least 7 years younger than woman, yet nobody is up in arms about this (I am very disturbed by this because there is racism and sexism against men in this issue.)
This is because for forever, women were never included in studies and were being prescribed medications based on how they affected men. Womens diseases were ignored, so women fought to have them funded.

Quote:

Males are more likely not be taught about testicular cancer self checks. Media teaches females about breast self checks but we ignore our males need to learn about testicular self checks Why is a female breast exam any more important? This ignoring and ignorance is caused by sexism against men.
Actually, i've seen several ads directed AT WOMEN to have their men perform those self checks. Why do you think that is? Maybe men are embarassed by it? Maybe women are supposed to be responsible for their spouses? I don't know. I do see this issue coming to the forefront though, which can only be a good thing.

Quote:

Society has been addressing sexism in schools against females but what about males? There is enough brain science that proves the brain differences between males and females. This affects learning. Young males are biologically slower than females when it comes to skills of writing and reading yet these issues have not been addressed? Why because it is against little males. We talk about female science and math deficiencies in schools but were is the mentioning of male deficiencies in reading and writing? It is not being mention because it is a male issue, ignoring an issue because of it being just a male issue is a form of sexism.
Yes, it should be addressed. I think maybe it wasn't before because being male automatically meant you got the better opportunities, better jobs, in the end. That may be changing.

Quote:

We are empowering females against date rape. We are working hard against sexploitation of girls but what about our boys? Our society makes it ok for young teen males to have sex with older woman. They are gaining experience we do not acknowledge the fact how this can harm them. That is wrong, and it is a sexist view.
I see this attitude changing, thankfully. It's disgusting.

Quote:

I see sexism like racism a river flowing in all directions. Until we address all the issues and empower all the people then we will truly have a better society. It is not just as simple as looking at the wrongs against one sex. It is not just looking about the wrongs caused by one sex. Nor is it as simple as looking at the wrongs against males. It is many issues that are deeply intertwine with each other.
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.

Quote:

I think many feminist fail to see how males need to be empowered. They need to be empowered to show emotions. They need to be empowered to say no I want to be a family man and put them first. They need to feel safe, like women need to feel safe. I think understanding male fear will help us make change. I think understanding how males feel pressure to perform by females and other males will help us understand why so many males are angry, violent, and suicidal.
I agree. and I think feminism does recognize this. If people would stop sucking up and believing what Rush and O'Reilly say about feminism, and see where it's really at, they would see that this is happening.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
Most feminist talk just about violence against women. All though I think it is important to address these issues we also need to address the issue of violence against men. Men are killing men at higher rates than women. I think it we can crack into the clues against male on male violence we will have a major break through against violence on women. Our sons are more likely to be killed by another male than our daughters.

It is true that our sons are more likely to be killed by another male -- but our daughters are more likely to be killed their husbands or boyfriends than anyone else. This is why feminists focus on violence against women.

More men are killed than women overall because they choose to engage in activities that carry a risk of death (mostly, drug use and dealing). I really fail to see why feminists should care about men's violence against other men.

I do understand one of your more general points, I think -- there are so many ways that our culture demeans, shames, and creates other negative feelings in men. However-- while I am sympathetic towards anyone that has any of these feelings, I believe that it is an individual's choice what they choose to do with these feelings. So if an emotionally wounded man abused by his wife uses his fists to strike back at her or anybody else-- sorry, he's just as much of an abuser as anyone else. While I support cultural changes and individuals struggling with their emotional pain (and believe men are entitled to this just like women are), I believe that once you use your pain as an excuse to hurt others, you lose my sympathy and I will argue to my death that you should be held accountable for your actions.

Karla


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
More men are killed than women overall because they choose to engage in activities that carry a risk of death (mostly, drug use and dealing). I really fail to see why feminists should care about men's violence against other men.

Because these violent men are going to be the ones killing, beating, hurting our daughters. They is why we should care plus they are HUMAN.

I am going back to my slavery example earlier. Maybe people should just let slaves stand up for themselves. Maybe we should have just let the sixty's equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
Maybe we should have just let the sixty's equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.

I guess that's another point I meant to make and forgot. Men have NOT embraced feminism. They have not. It's a fight women have fought on their own...

I see a lot of care in the feminist movement, and as I said before, if men think they've been given the short end of the stick, they need to stand up too and not expect women to do all the work.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
Because these violent men are going to be the ones killing, beating, hurting our daughters. They is why we should care plus they are HUMAN.

I am going back to my slavery example earlier. Maybe people should just let slaves stand up for themselves. Maybe we should have just let the sixty's equal rights happen completely with out white people help. Maybe we should just let people in third world countries starve and die at hands of dictators until they realize and stand up for themselves.

Um, you need to educate yourself about domestic violence. Domestic violence perpetrators come from all walks of life, not just generally violent men. Focusing on helping men who are generally violent will leave most of the batterers unattended to.

And what you are missing in your slavery example and related ones is that those groups of people were/are being oppressed. They lack economic, political, and social power-- and, in that way, are pretty much the opposite of generally violent men. It is women who are battered who are the oppressed ones, not men who batter. That is why I do not believe feminists should care about violent men-- because they are choosing to oppress others with their violence. No matter what personal pain may drive their choices to be violent, it is the bottom line--it's their choice. They are NOT victims.

You've got it turned around, I think.

Karla


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I thought about my comments all day yesterday. I typed off right before I rain off to work, it was haste. I did think all day what I type did not say what I meant. So forgive me on that. I am not stupid I know domestic violence reach a cross all social economic factors but why? What causes all these men to do this? Do you honestly think it just because of the Patriarchal system we have? A violent person is a violent person.

I do think we need to care about violent men because their violent acts are killing our children's fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers. Their actions do affect us. I am going to take it you never held onto your friend after their child, son was shot. Have you ever gone to a friend's brother's funeral from from murder? You never held her daughter or a friend because she was slicing her arms up due to the violence around her. They might not have ever been physically hurt by the violence but their hearts bleed deeply. In my junior and senior year I went to 7 funerals for male class mates. I saw all to well how these boys death affected women and myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the sunshine*
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.

The problem is men that are victimized cannot speak up. Several things happen:

1. Men label them less than worthy, gays, whiners, momma's boys, et
2. Women label him as a wimp or whiner, or they will say something like "Well so what? Look what women have to go through. Grow up. Deal with it." Criticized unrepentantly as being heartless and uncaring. This totally devalues them and their feelings.

It is not only men calling men sissy's but women. If you go into a high school the guy that is less likely to have a girl friend is the "wimp, geek, cry baby" This does not mean we need to ignore the injustices to girls in high school but acknowledge and deal with the injustices of boys that are hurt by not being the strongest/most physically popular. This means we need to step back and teach our daughters it is acceptable for guys to be this way. Guys that deal with it and try to deal with their emotions with tears are outcasted by both sexes.
3. Many men don't understand their own feelings or understand they are allowed to have those feelings! In another post on rape/sex abuse I mention male rape to plant ideas and to make people think. I did this because I recently had a discussion with a man that was raped (sodomized/molested depending on definitions) and he did not realize it was not his fault. It was not until he saw photos of the Iraq prisoners did he realize or learn that his erections and ejaculations did not mean that he really wanted it. He has spent many years questioning his sexuality and his feelings. He works with teens and it was never taught to him that a male erection and ejaculation does not equal enjoyment.

My dad was/is another example of a man that did not know or understand his feelings. Once he understood what he felt and were it came from did he change. (PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE this does not mean I think it was OK for him to be violent but an understanding to how to stop it in other people.) It also shows how male depression and other mental illnesses are often ignored or not diagnosed. (Health issues also. He was given viagra for prostate cancer).

Many men do not understand why and how isolated they feel and they have not been socialize any differently. They have grown to learn this is how men are, how they feel, and they are wrong for feeling or wanting anything different. You ask a father of a new born if he wishes he could stay home. Most will say yes, but they can't because they have to work.

Look at how many men that do not know how they are harmed by circumcision? How many men won't let anyone know that they feel violated and mutilated by it? They are and have been expected to deny the affects of circumcision. Told not to question the system or what it did to them. Look at the strugles and criticism of men that try to restore. How often they are told to get over it by their men and women? They get called and referred to psychs.

How can men step up for themselves when they are afraid to. They are afraid to be seen as "less" than. They are afraid they will be told to shut up and buck up once again. It is hard to admit something might be wrong with you. They are stuck in a system that is abusive to them the same restraints that hold/help women to a certain role holds men to another role.

How can I socialize my son, and all boys to help boys understand their feelings. How can I socialize my children to make it acceptable for boys to show emotions? I need to be careful not to accidentally raise my dds to think a boy that is less physically or financially superior is less and unworthy of their love (actually this goes for both genders). I need to make sure my girls and boy know that women don't need "Protected" like the Patriarchal system has lead/set us to get accustom to. How they are raised will depend on how they turn out as men. How I raise my daughters will determined who they will choose as husbands what type of man(partners) to accept.

Once when my daughter was about two she was in a sand box with another girl and boy. My daughter hit this little girl and before I could get up and correct my child this other girls mom just laid into this little boy. This mom could not/would not phantom that another girl was mean to her girl. What message does that send to the little boy? What message did it send to the boy when he was not apologized to or emotionally validate? What happens to this boy when this happens year after year? What happens when these little boys get into the school setting and get put on Ritalin because their educational needs are not being met? We have made great strides in girls educations with science and math? But if you mention the fact that boys are behind in reading/language arts you get told so boys do better in science and math many women get stuck on only one part of the statisic? Many people never hear the other parts of the big picturs. If you mention boys drop out of school at higher rates, you get the same answer as so? More females than males plan college or further education, again you get response so, men make more money (totally ignoring most of the higher paying jobs are the worse and most deadliest jobs. I know someone before mention how many women are harassed off the jobs, but men are still socialized that then need to protect women. Kind of a paradox.) We have seen great strides with getting women and ethnic minorities on student governments but in high schools now girls are more involved in student government than boys. What does this unbalance lead to? Why are boys becoming so uninvolved and disengaged in their government and communities? Does this really benefit us all when they no longer care or don't think they are worthy of them? How do we/society benifit when we hear the boys say why bother they (girls/women) won't listen? Why do they feel this way? I don't think my dds benifit from this nor my son.

My son has been made to feel that it was his fault over and over again. When he has wanted to run in the play ground and I sent him off to an area with no other children, he expected to stop if there is a girl that doesn't like it. He is except to change his game to fit a girl. The girl cannot run as fast he has been asked to slow down for her. There are times I tell him change the game, because it is appropriate but there are times it is inappropriate for a game to change just because the girl is slower. We are talking about times when the boy/s were at least 3 years older and there are plenty other kids begging the girl to join in their game of tag. My girls have been told they play with boys too much because they are too rough. What message does that send 1. Boys are suppose to be rough. 2. That being rough is bad. I have been left a little dumbfounded when he has left the group to be by himself and have been warn that is anti-social behavior. My son has been told he was mean because he refuse to play with a girl instead of reading a book to himself. I was told he was beign sexist when he stopped reading allowed, never mind his motive was he didn't know this book if this book would be parent approved by her parent. I have had my son been the bad guy for defending his sister when the other little girls were being mean to her. I have had my friends whose sons were put in the same accusing position.

When he was in 1st grade and he had a crush on a little girl it was us that got a talking to more. He was not suppose to hold this girls' hand. He was not suppose to be affectionate in anyway towards this girl. He was wrong for feeling this way. He was being over sexual. It didn't matter that she willingly reciprocated. I remember one day this little girl got up in class and kissed my son. When I came to pick him up the teacher talked to me about it. She told me that my son could not be doing this. Then she looked shocked when I asked what he was doing? Sitting in his desk? I asked if she had talked to this girls mom, she said not yet. When I called this girls mom (because we did have an issue of not appropriate behavior not putting haloes on either kids head) The mom was never informed by the school. This happened over-and-over, this other mom only heard half of the story/situation. This girls mom was given the impression that my son was the aggressor. When reality was it was between both children and it was mutual (not all was appropriate behavior). It is hard to explain to your child why it is not ok to kiss a girl or just hold a girls hand but it is ok for two girls to hold hands. It is hard to explain why it is not socially acceptable for him to be friends with this little girl and it was the adults making it unacceptable. He got angry because he was always at fault in the situations. We he got talk to at school he said it was always him that got in trouble. The teacher would scold him and punish him more severly for the same crime (and I believe him because of what I saw personally).

How advance have we gotten when boys don't want girls on their hockey team because if they fall on them they might touch them and get in trouble? On of our friend is a hockey coach, when they got girls on the team that was the response of the boys when they got question about isolating/ignoring the girls. These boys know the physical ness of this sport. They can fall on each other and they are afraid if they fall on a girl they will be accused of something sexual: in part because this had happen to one of the boys on another team, in part they are still socialize not to hurt girls. How advance are we if a woman is going up a ladder aboard ship is allowed to fall because the guys are afraid of getting accused of sexual harassment for grabbing her butt (same place they would grab a man in this situation)? Why hasn't the necessary bonds not been made to make ship life functioning? How can we understand these issues if we don't take time to learn or understand what the men are thinking and feeling when they are in these situation?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the sunshine*
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!

Have you ever stopped a moment and ever thought about or wonder if women ever benefited by this system? Have you ever thought about why it has lasted for so long? Yes, women paid a crappy price for this system but this system at one time did protect women. It was the men that went off to fight wars, be the slaves/indentured servants, take the physically deadly jobs that protected the women, children, and home. The necessity of this system has LONG been outdated, but a 1000-2000 years ago (or when ever it started) it did serve a purpose called survival and protection. It provide women protection from horrible deadly jobs. Was it ever right?? NO!! THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE SYSTEM RIGHT!!

This idea of women needing protection still comes up. Look at the military and all the lame reasons given why women shouldn't be in boils down to people being socialize to think women need protection. Men are socialize to think that they need to protect women. We need to ask ourselves how are our men being socialized this what how are we (both genders) teaching these lessons. My dad has been in the military for 31 years. He will tell you that he doesn't want a woman beside him because he feels obligated to protect her, his wife agree with him because if he is busy protecting a woman he might die. He fought my mom when she went in (mom is retired AF). My mom acknowledge this fact that men felt they needed to protect her, especially after she divorced my father. When I was in, I saw this happening. I saw women benefiting form this and yet being "held back" by this. This most startlingly example was what happened in the motor pool. Women got away with not moving heavy tools, they were protected from this hard work. Yet, they could not understand why the guys didn't want them there. How their actions of getting the guys to do it also negatively effected them. These women also go very mad when a woman step up to the plate and did the job and "proved" herself (that a girl can do it). I had a traditionally male job. I did quite well at because I made sure I was not letting the guys protect me from part of my job.

Paying for dates: Women are now starting to have more money than men. Yet a guy still has to pay even if a women makes more money. When the tables are turn men still pay. Also, how often do you see a women even date a man lower than her status (or at least have potent ional to be at a higher status)? It is a rarity and people question the guy's abilities. This sends the message to boys that they need to earn the $$$$ so they can provide these things. So they don't choose lower paying jobs like teaching. And if they do, they end up in administrative because it pays more. It sends the message that women need to be protected and provided for.

My dh works with a young man (22ish) that is in college. He meet this girl at their job (restaurant) she wouldn't have anything to do with him, but when she ran into him at Wash U. It was another story. He was not worthy on her attention when she precieved him as poor. Then he was a jerk for not giving her attention when she figured out he has great potential for future money. How does this behavior and expectations effect him later? Why is it shocking that he gets embittered and develops an attitude that women don't truly care about him unless he is making money? This does not make it right for him to become violent but it is an understanding to how we get from point A to point B. It shows us how we need to change how we socialization our children (not just boys but girls). Why is it socially acceptable for a woman do be this way?

Also about male activism. When a man stands up and argues for equal rights he is called horrible things. He is force to spend more money on getting custody and enforced visitation. Statistic do not support your lady's argument about men getting custody of children after divorce.

"Ninety percent of divorced fathers have less than full custody of their children." Jonathan M. Honeycutt, Ph.D.(c), M.P.A., M.A., I.P.C. Director of Research, Clinical & Consulting Psychotherapist, National Institute for Divorce Research, Panama City, Florida.

But to look at this situation properly you have to see that fathers are getting JOINT custody of their children and they are spending more money to gain this right.

When you dig into men organization sites and then verify information (which can be difficult at times) you find facts that men are being betrayed wrongly. You hear about how men abuse there kids however, 70 percent of confirmed cases of child abuse and 65 percent of parental murders of children are committed by mothers, not fathers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. This is cross social economical factors. This is not only happening in homes were their is an abusive man. So when you make this a gender issue you make it a gender divide and it does not help the victims.

I have spent time digging reading into sites I don't like, reading books I don't care for. Trying to understand the world I must send my children off into. I find myths and statistics that are poorly studied, studies that were not done at all, statistics that were oversimplified then these thoughts/ideas/assumptions became a status quo on how many people think and view the world. Any study that disagrees with a feminist view is often ignored or buried. It is hard to dig into the research to find out if they are valid or not.

If you dare say anything that disagrees with feminist you are criticized and attacked not listen to called a fool. I am trying to stand in the middle between the feminist and the people that would like to see the system completely stay the same (the political "right"). Two poles that actively manipulate the statistics and issues. I see that there are valid points and issue from both sides but we need to listen to the other side. We need to understand so we can help people overcome these feelings.

When society hangs on to one cause of domestic violence blaming completely on the Patriarchal system it totally ignores other issues that could prevent it like mental illness, drug abuse, and alcoholism. It completely ignores issues that statistically lesbian relationships are more violent than gay relationship (why is this? Why don't you hear of studies that bring this information?) It completely ignores that women can be violent too. Many people give the excuse well a women was trying to protect herself but the studies I have seen this is not always the case. When asked being physically at danger does not always lead to women violence.

When we polarize issues as only male or only female we create a further the "battle of the sexes".


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.

I also want to tell you that when you start trotting out experiences you've had such as comforting those who have lost loved ones to violence or the like, you should keep in perspective that if it is an attempt to try to claim authority from them, I start to get agitated because you seem to presume that if only those who see it differently had these experiences, we would see the light. In domestic violence, we call this kind of argument d*ck (not deck, dock or duck btw) sizing, along the lines of "look what I can show you, from what I've seen." I am not really inclined to engage in the same sizing up-- but I can tell you after nearly 20 years of working with victims of domestic violence, with murderers in maximum security prisons and those accused of it outside of it, mine is definitely WAY bigger than yours.

I do think that what I have missed in what you are saying-- and what I think is your main point that should absolutely be acknowledged, is that women are affected deeply by violence that happens to the men in their lives and in our general culture, even if it doesn't physically impact them. You are so right about this, and you are also right that we should "care" about the violence that men suffer and more generally care about how our culture creates emotional pain for men.

Where I disagree with you is probably much less than I originally believed-- I do believe feminists should "care" about male violence against men, but when it comes time to putting resources and raising awareness about violence, there is so much work to be done directly with the female victims of male violence that anything broader can't possibly be accomplished without compromising resources to these oppressed groups. So while I think that feminists can (and do) acknowledge the impact of general violence in our culture, they/we cannot devote resources to addressing it when there are battered women's shelters that need funding, etc.

Lastly, I also want to point out that all the research on domestic violence cannot get a handle on why violence occurs. It is clear that the reasons for it are complex and multi dimensional, and different for different people. I personally think a more productive task is to focus on what has the best chance of stopping it-- in which case the clear answer is holding batterers accountable, through arrest and prosecution and conviction and sentencing, for their violence. And it also seems that many other social problems, from drug abuse to teenage pregnancy to school dropouts are linked to domestic violence. In my mind, if we end domestic violence we will see corresponding drops in other social problems.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel attacked or unduly criticized in this discussion-- but that can happen when people disagree.
Karla


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.
Karla

Several points You have made are good. I am short on time. I did not say lesbian reltationships are more violent than heterosexual relationship. The statistics I have seen compared gay men to gay/lesibian women. I currently cannot find them becasue I keep on popping up porn sites. Later tonight/tomorrow I will try to find this information when I don't have little eyes around and spend more time on a responce.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Unhealthy relationships can happen in any combination.

When it come to the rest, instead of going point by point, I'll just generalize my feelings...

There is a REASON why many are "suspicious" of men in general. It didn't just happen out of the blue. We could look at Ted Bundy and feel sorry for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he murdered lots of women. Excuses are just that, excuses. Much of Marsupialmom's posts sound like denial to me. My first insticts were right. I don't feel sorry for those poor, poor misunderstood abusive men. Not the ones abusing thier wives, not the ones running our country.

If our culture was matriarchal, do you think we'd be where we are today? I THINK NOT!

I agree that when it comes to our children, it is equaly important to empower our sons as it is our daughters, but when it comes to the Big Picture, it's not the men's rights I'll be busting my ass to fight for.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Yes. It's bogus to assert that women, the oppressed sex still fighting for equality, should be giving energy to liberate men, who are still by-and-large fighting _against_ feminism.

The patriarchy hurts men too, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's men who are in power in a patriarchy. Being in power gives them an, um, unique opportunity to change the framework of that power, and they need to use that opportunity instead of whining about how hard they have it.

I think there's 2 issues here: boys and adult men. I totally agree that how we raise our sons is a key part of the fight for gender equality. I totally agree that little boys just as much as little girls have the right to be mothered and fathered in a way that frees them from gender stereotypes.

But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

yes, that makes A LOT of sense, Kristin!









There are many factors that make men violent, abusive, and misogynistic, that are totally in men's control, and have their roots in patriarchal heirarchies and institutions, designed and maintained by men and for men. Like my mom's second physically abusive husband, was severely damaged by Vietnam, and had post traumatic stress disorder, He had many problems. My Mom played the all sacrificing mother role to him for 5 years, always trying to be there for him, always forgiving him, always trying to be helpful- and it didn't help him change, ... she lost five years of her life dealing with a lot of pain, and it was hard on me growing up too.... The problem was created by arrogant white men in power, who could care less about the masses of poor kids they send off to fight their immoral wars for their plans for power and control of resources, and then they could care less that those boys come home violent and screwed up husbands and fathers- why? because the women are there to deal with the mess, like always. Women in no way caused that bastard to be violent, men did.
Men need to be responsible for themselves, and if they would understand history and learn to listen to women and heal themselves, they would be partners in the struggles for humanity, for feminist struggles. They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance...


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?


I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men.







It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141*
I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men.







It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL


I think we all agree that ALL children should have the love and care they need regardless of gender.
Adult men need to be held accountable for their actions.
I know many wonderful, supportive, feminist men ( married one), but unfortunately they are not the ones controlling our gov't, major corporations, mass media, etc.... so the circumstances we are living with have a lot of problems that have roots in patriarchy.....


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance.

Yes, exactly! That's what I was trying to describe, but you did it much more concisely.

It's bogus to expect women, who are fighting our own battles still, to go the extra distance for men instead of men working to liberate *themselves*. And it's even more bogus to take chunks out of feminism because it isn't doing the job of liberating men. That's like lumping your blender 'cause it doesn't make toast.

ETA: and don't even get me started on the dynamic I sometimes see of "mean old feminists, making men feel bad".


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141*
And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men.







It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL

I know some really fabulous men too. I work at an vegetarian restaurant/feminist bookstore owned by radical feminists (from the good 'ol days). I've had the opportunity to meet some really fantastic men there. It is good to see.
I blame the Republicans too...


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I blame the Republicans for everything









Kristen - for me you nailed the whole "debate" down with this one thought....

"I think there's 2 issues here: boys and adult men. I totally agree that how we raise our sons is a key part of the fight for gender equality. I totally agree that little boys just as much as little girls have the right to be mothered and fathered in a way that frees them from gender stereotypes."

I wasn't getting that from many of the posts and that is what made me feel so alone on this thread - it just seems so central a concept to MDC and AP.

I absolutely am interested in promoiting equal rights for women but these days much of my day-to-day "work" is focused on raising and protecting my boys and I am struggling with how to deal with sexist comments about them. I partcipate in activist groups to focus on broader change but I come to MDC to talk about my kids and their issues.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
Men need to be responsible for themselves, and if they would understand history and learn to listen to women and heal themselves, they would be partners in the struggles for humanity, for feminist struggles. They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance...

So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?

When they do speak up they are called misogamist. That is a wrong assumption. When a person speaks up about DV against men they are not saying they hate women and want to take money away from this issue. They just want the same safety against violence as women have and/or are gaining. Take time to stop and listen to people that have something that doesn't agree with you, don't say they are in denial. You might find they have a point. If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also (I am willing to read and listen to arguments against these studies, especially if they are poorly done but I do not see women/feminist discrediting the this way. They just go it ignores women's issue. Men just do not call the police. We do not rely solely on children's calls to the police about the abuse they receive at the hand of adults. We do not rely solely on women's calls to the police about rape or DV. But when a male group or social scientist comes out with a study they are discredited with out even looking at how the study and conclusion is came to.

I am not in denial about the atrocities caused by man. I am also not in denial about how women have benefited by this Patriarchal system. I don't seem men as evil. They have created things trying to make women's lives easier. They have gone off to wars to protect the lands that feeds women and children.

I am not in denial that women did not get out and vote against Shrub head. Men vote at higher rates, how is this man's fault we do have a right to vote. We (women) fought hard for a right to vote and so we could have responsibility in our government but WOMEN AREN'T taking this responsibility. Women need to take responsibility, they did not vote which is why these men are in power. Women are responsible when they vote for these men. Women need to stop saying men are voting for these guys so it is not our fault. Women need to take responsibility for the idiots they are allowing into office by not taking responsibility and voting. I do not have the statistics for this last election. I do have these statistics for Gore/Bush. (forgive me on this one but if the shrub wouldn't have won the first election there would not have been a second).

_Exactly half (50%) of women with children voted for Bush.

Well over half (56%) of women who make over $70,000 a year voted for Bush, as did women of the Protestant faith (53%).

Women under 34 were slightly more likely to vote Bush than Gore (49%-46%).

Women with children are more likely to vote Republican in a Congressional race than Democrat (48%-44%) as are women with household incomes over $70,000 (56%-39%), and women aged 34 and under (47%-43%).

Women are voting this way because they have something to gain or maintain by the system they are voting for. These men are getting into office not just by male votes, but by women's votes, and women's lack of voting.
_ So when we are complaining about the men in power we have to accept how they are getting there is not just because of men.

Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing. Face up to the fact that 60% of all convicted child abuser are women. That an infant is more likely to die at their mother's hands (during the first year of life). Call me heartless, I don't give a rats ass about what a man has done to that womenor what a society has set up she has no right to kill her child. T_his does not mean I don't think there are many issues we need to address like depression and PPD but at the same time I acknowledge that men get depressed after birth._ Then they are told they are wrong for feeling that way, for not being strong enough or sensitive enough to their wife. Maybe me men would/could be more sensitive if they are not trapped by depression. We all are better gained if we address this issues and give men a way to deal with them, not be critical of them or say it is not a womens issue because it not a womens body. It does effect her.

Women are not the only people that struggle? Our boys won't struggle to get out of the system that has been created before then, but not by them? So our boys we are not going to help our boys emotionally deal so they can fight the system that is before them? As women we should not set the example that only women's issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men's issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don't want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?

Seems to me that EVERYONE so far has agreed that we want better for our sons, and that it is equally as important to focus on our sons as our daughters when it comes to sexism. That has come through in every post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also ..... But when a male group or social scientist comes out with a study they are discredited with out even looking at how the study and conclusion is came to.

I started my last post as saying, yes...abusive relationships come in all shapes and forms, no doubt. For me, when it comes to studies, I can't quote many, because I think "studies" are bias. Even ones that agree with my point of view I won't quote, for the same reason. You could produce a "study" that will confirm any oppinion. I put no values in "studies". That's just me, I know many people swear by them for thier facts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I am not in denial about the atrocities caused by man. I am also not in denial about how women have benefited by this Patriarchal system. I don't seem men as evil. They have created things trying to make women's lives easier. They have gone off to wars to protect the lands that feeds women and children.

How exactly have men made womens lives easier? How have we benefited by patriarchy?
I'm sure this will make me very unpopular, but ya know...it's MEN who wage war. I don't get all that choked up about them fighting them for us poor little 'ol women waiting at home.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I am not in denial that women did not get out and vote against Shrub head. Men vote at higher rates, how is this man's fault we do have a right to vote. We (women) fought hard for a right to vote and so we could have responsibility in our government but WOMEN AREN'T taking this responsibility. Women need to take responsibility, they did not vote which is why these men are in power. Women are responsible when they vote for these men. Women need to stop saying men are voting for these guys so it is not our fault. Women need to take responsibility for the idiots they are allowing into office by not taking responsibility and voting. I do not have the statistics for this last election. I do have these statistics for Gore/Bush. (forgive me on this one but if the shrub wouldn't have won the first election there would not have been a second).

I couldn't agree with you more on this one!!!!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing.

Believe me, I have never been protected or provided for by any man.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
As women we should not set the example that only women's issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men's issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don't want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.

It IS feminists that fight for all of those things, including men's issues. Men's groups, usually fight for thier own only (notice I said usually, their ARE some great men out there!) Because of that, I think growing up in a feminist household will benefit my son in many, many ways.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also (I am willing to read and listen to arguments against these studies, especially if they are poorly done but I do not see women/feminist discrediting the this way. They just go it ignores women's issue.

I really don't think this is the case. There is one collection of studies by a group of academics that reports this (and these studies receive a great deal of media attention) and there have been numerous critiques of the flaws of these studies by feminists. Their research is more than a decade old by now, though-- and, meanwhile, the National Institute of Justice (hardly a feminist enterprise, especially under the Republican Government) has been collecting victimization statistics every year. What they report is that 85% of the victims of domestic violence are women, 15% are men. Domestic violence is NOT an equal opportunity crime, it is a gendered crime, and women are not perpetrators as often as men are. Even more objectively than who is a victim are the simple statistics on domestic homicides:

http://www.silentwitness.net/sub/violences.htm

About 3 times as many women are killed by their intimate partners as men. Even more disturbingly, homicides (which have generally declined in recent years) against men by non-intimates are still going down. Fewer men are being killed all the time, including the rates of those killed by intimates.

The same is not true for women-- the domestic homicides against women have not declined in the past 10 years as they have for men.

Do I care about the 15% of domestic violence victims who are men? Um, yes. Battered women's shelters do help these victims-- they help them get orders of protection and they provide alternative housing (e.g. hotel coupons) when they can. They (just like rape crisis programs) also provide counseling for male victims of abuse. The current system can satisfy the needs of male victims of domestic violence -- and anyone who insists that there needs to be a shelter for abused men is completely incorrect.

I'm not really sure what your point was in this post, but you need to face up to the fact that men are perpetrators of most of the violence-- not just domestically, but generally. And they need to be held accountable for that violence. Perhaps you should take some of your unsympathetic portrayal of women who kill their children and apply that to men who are violent, rather than whining about how violent men are so abused, oppressed etc. I find it very hypocritical that you have incredible scorn for women who are violent but make excuse after excuse, including supporting these excuses with bogus information and data, for violent men.

As long as women make excuses for violent men, they will continue to be violent. That's part of how patriarchy works-- get the victims to feel sorry for the perpetrators, and give them permission to continue to carry on their victimization.

Karla


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## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?

......

Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing. Face up to the fact that 60% of all convicted child abuser are women. That an infant is more likely to die at their mother's hands (during the first year of life). Call me heartless, I don't give a rats ass about what a man has done to that womenor what a society has set up she has no right to kill her child.

Women are not the only people that struggle? Our boys won't struggle to get out of the system that has been created before then, but not by them? So our boys we are not going to help our boys emotionally deal so they can fight the system that is before them? As women we should not set the example that only women's issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men's issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don't want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.


wow, you really project a lot into other posts. If you look back at all my posts in this thread, I am not saying "to hell with our sons"- actually quite the opposite. I am trying to figure out the best most effective way of allowing my son to stay the bright, loving, kind, sweet soul he is, and learn how to counteract the insidiuos conditioning that he has to hide that part of him, or that he must become more aggressive because its "how boys are" or something. Our boys and grown men are two different issues. I am mother to my two year old son, I protect him, care for him, nuture him, nurse him, respect him, and teach him to be a repectful thoughtful person. When he is an adult man, I will hold him accountable for his actions(this will actually have begun in childhood), and not make excuses for him, and not accept excuses, I will forgive him for mistakes b/c everyone is human and makes them, but I will not coddle him.
I have had my own issues to deal with. I dealt with them on my own. No one provided for me or protected me. No one solved my problems. I had to do it on my own, its everyones life's journey to do this healing work on their own. They may ask support and help from others but no one can solve their problems if they do not choose to do so on their own. I am not hating men or women by asking that they take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Adults need to work their own crap out.... women should not need to save men, men should not need to save women. We support each other, but thats different than taking abuse and making excuses for it.

MarsupialMom, you seem to be personally invested in defending all men. We can criticize some men without criticizing ALL men. Theres so many topics in your long posts, it could be about twenty different threads. I don't have the time or energy to respond to all of it, but as far as your statement that Bush won the election b/c women did not vote, .... well, that seems a little simplistic and inaccurate, there are many reasons that bush won--- voter disenfranchisement, fraud, the religious right's effectiveness in mobilizeing people to vote b/c of their homophobia and fear, Kerry's ineffectiveness to counteract the political spin against him, to name just a few.... I do not think its fair to blame women. It is definitely a problem that ALL people need to vote more, I agree with that. But thats another thread....

I thought this was supposed to be about sexism and our SONS?


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