# New Forum Needed!



## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

with all the homebithers, antivaxers, cosleepers, apers, etc on this board, I have seen a definite theme going through it all.

It seems that almost every single one of them that are "alternative parenting" end up at some point dealing with their local CPS - Chilp Protective Services.

So, IMO, there should be a forum for those of us currently dealing with orhave in the past delt with CPS to talk, rant, offer help and encouragement and anything else we have to give.

Not every parent is a perfect Stepford parent. Unfortunately, CPS expects us to be!

So, moderators and admins - give us a "Dealing with CPS" forum! We need a place to talk about this abuse of governmental privilege.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I would be totally freaked about posting on that type of board. At least this way it is spread out a bit, but w/a board like that I'm afraid it would be a, "Hey CPS, look over here!" type of thing. Maybe I'm just paranoid though







: I mean, I already *know* we're being watched on Activism.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Maybe they can make it "members only" and you'd have to pass a questionnaire first.

Although, if we stay silent, that gives CPS that much power.

Most of us here are using pseudonyms/screen names and as long as our profiles don't carry our specific names, it is relatively easy to remain anonymous.

One of the things I can see for the new forum is a "how do I handle X issue with them" and people can talk with it without letting some of the other threads devolve into a "CPS SUX" threat.

You've got "Queer Parenting" "Single Parenting" "Gentle Discipline" and even "Adoption" forums. We need a "CPS Watch" forum. No one watches them and they get away with murder.

DP says "One of the thing is where does one find the info to deal with CPS constructively? Its just not there." He's right. They come in. They threaten. They coerce. They demand. And if you don't obey, they are legally legislated to kidnap our children. How are we as parents supposed to deal with that when the general public believes that any parent who has CPS in their life is automatically an abuser? We can't just go to our friends and talk to them about it. Most don't understand. Others just refuse to believe that CPS has such overwhelming power to destroy families.

Of the ones that do, too many of them are themselves burnt out from CPS causing havok in their lives. The rest either don't want to have to deal with any of these issues or would love to help, but simply can't for whatever reason.

And the few that are able to help do what they can when they can. Which, when a family is in the middle of a crisis with CPS - which can last for years - they just don't have the energy to help out for the long haul.

A lot of the parents in here get in crap with CPS for the parenting choices they make because they aren't "mainstream" choices. There needs to be a place for people to share information on how to constructively deal with CPS, vent as needed, and get both encouragement and resources from others.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I totally agree that it is needed, just wanted to give my paranoid input.

Of course, DH & I also have a "CPS" plan, so I guess we are just paranoid that way. We understand the *possible* damage of foster care and how unfounded allegations can cause serious harm to your family.

I 100% support that type of board, just remember, *nothing* is truly anonymous!


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I had no idea so many families had be threatened by them. How does this happen? How do they find out about your practices?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

One woman said that her mother or mother in law threatened her with them.

Others have had strangers call.

I've heard of a school that calls on every parent if their child gets a bruise even if its on school grounds.

Then there's the former spouses trying to stir up problems and make life hell.

And vindictive people who hate the family.

Doctors doing it because the children are unvaxed.

Neighbours because the child screams too much.

Hospitals because of "bonding problems" or refusing to do "required" tests.

The children themselves cause they can't get their way so they want to punish the parents. There's books that teach them to do that for even trivial reasons.

Children are "out of control" and so the police and cps get involved.

A report of sexual abuse comes in.

"Failure to thrive."

Etc etc etc.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Hmmmm

I am not usually one for adding new boards, I voted against formula and child led weaning boards bc I didn't think there would be enough traffic and the issues could be easily addressed in other boards (like Breastfeeding Beyone Infancy and Life with A Babe). So, I won't say I think this one is nesc. BUT

if we did get this new board I think
1) It should be open to the public, it may help trolling CPS workers see that these unorthadox behaviors are safe and natural

2) I am studying Social Work (will have a Masters soon!) and will be working for CPS, I will be glad to be there to help anyone who needs it.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

TiredX2, I'd love to know your plan!! Or maybe in a more generic form could ya pm it to me. I don't need specifics just a good outline would be great. I am paranoid too and would love to know I have a plan for just in case.
I would like to have forum for this but I would most likely be a lurker (paranoia will destroy ya). Maybe we could have sticky of info about this!!

PS you don't think they read are pm's do ya??????


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

TiredX...me too!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Most of us here are using pseudonyms/screen names and as long as our profiles don't carry our specific names, it is relatively easy to remain anonymous.

Not true. We've had long threads about this in TAO. Who is the member that was able to find our identities and addresses? Someone will remind me. She is the one who always warns us to avoid putting info in our sigs, stop giving away things like the name of the restaurant where we went to dinner on Friday, etc.

It is very easy to find out who people are on this board, for better or worse. For example, I have read your posts, Mamid, on two other boards besides this one and read posts from your DH as well. I know the stories you've posted here and elsewhere, about where you and family live, friends you have, etc. All because those were posted online for anyone to read and follow.

If someone wanted to track anyone down here, it is pretty simple. That's why I don't believe the internet is anonymous at all.

JMO.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Its not like a leave the country plan.

Just refuse entry to the house. If I was home I would call DH and then get out of the state while he contacted our lawyer and settled up. If I had to lie about where the kids were or anything else I would do so.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm not trying to hide. But for others who are, your posts has just shown them how to hide better.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

I think that's a good idea. Or a more general forum for those of us dealing with nosey neighbors and cops as well. I was *shocked* to have the cops show up at my door the day before the 4th of July because a neighbor heard "crying". Um, YEAH, I have a 2 year old, some crying is to be expected. I felt pretty ridiculous explaining to the cops that he was crying because my kids were fighting over whether to sleep with the nightlight on or off:LOL He can get pretty loud, but the crying only went on for about 10 minutes (it had turned into a tantrum) which the neighbor thought was a "long time". By the time the cops got there (30 min. from the start of the incident) both kids were peacefully asleep after getting thier bedtime songs. I just can't believe how people are so ready to turn your life upside down over nothing








Now I'm paranoid she will call CPS every time my little guy throws a fit


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Why would CPS be concerned with AP parents? Is gentle discipline something to call them about these days? I can understand why some would see non-vaxing as dangerous but otherwise I'm LOST.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Didn't you know? Cosleeping is abuse! Babies have to have their own cribs and toddlers their own rooms! Parents can kill their babies by smothering them!







:

That was direct from our own intake social worker! I just about blew a gasket. Just imagine what he would have said about nursing on demand, slinging and extended nursing nevermind tandem or all the other AP things we do!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I think that while this is an important topic, we don't need an entire forum for it. I think that having a forum for it risks scaring people that are new to our board and not strong in their AP/NFL convictions away from a lot of the things that we promote. The fact that we would have a CPS forum may think that if they do what we do, they're more likely to be reported. They may even think that we really must be doing something wrong if we need a forum like that.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

And remember, never, never, NEVER give additional unasked for information. If they are investigating, for example, "extended" nursing DO not mention co-sleeping, homeschool, not-vaxing, etc... Give them what you legally must and no more.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
Why would CPS be concerned with AP parents? Is gentle discipline something to call them about these days? I can understand why some would see non-vaxing as dangerous but otherwise I'm LOST.

Didn't you hear about that case where the mom who was nursing a 6 yr old actually had her child removed from her home? The child was also cosleeping which they deemed to have been an even bigger problem than the nursing. I'm not sure AP parents have this problem any more than other parents, but it's scary when it happens to you. I'm not sure about the whole giving it a forum thing, but I can definatly commisserate with the OP. It wasn't AP that got the cops called on us, just a kiddo who was tantruming though.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
I think that while this is an important topic, we don't need an entire forum for it. I think that having a forum for it risks scaring people that are new to our board and not strong in their AP/NFL convictions away from a lot of the things that we promote. The fact that we would have a CPS forum may think that if they do what we do, they're more likely to be reported. They may even think that we really must be doing something wrong if we need a forum like that.

ITA, you know just reading the above answer made me think. NO way will I do any of those extreme things and risk THAT.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

NO way will I do any of those extreme things and risk THAT.








What extreme things?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The thing is that aspects of AP/NP are not the norm and some do think for example nursing a 3yr.old (as of tomorrow this will be me) is abuse or co-sleeping w/ a 4yr.old. Homeschooling makes you more of a target as well not to mention unschooling (which we do). Also add on not vaxing and I think you get the picture. I do think there is a need but maybe not a forum. I don't know it would be nice for parents needing good info/advice about CPS to be able to find it here.
I don't find any of those things "extreme" but I know some people do, maybe my neighbors do kwim.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

That's just confusing to me that someone on this board would say they wouldn't do those "extreme" things (which is what I thought this board was here to support).


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I am hoping that some people's unfortunate run-ins with CPS were glaring exceptions to the rule. I want to work for CPS because I want to help children who are being abused. Plain and simple.

In my county (as far as Iknow) we have had 2 reports about breastfeeding 1) someone called about a 2 year old nursing. SW told caller that was normal.

2) Someone callled about a 4 and 6 yo nursing. SW said it violated no laws and couldn't do anything about it.

I have yet to hear of a report about cosleeping, homeschooling or not vaccinating.

This from a cosleeping, not vaxing, child-led weaning promoting, probably homeschooling, planning an unassisted childbirth student of social work (see, we aren't all that bad!)


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

[


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

At the first surprise inspection/visit we were told we had to get our place clean and rid of all our junk because it was "unsafe." We were sorting through shit to get rid of it when the stoopidhead showed up! We were told that our son was developmentally delayed because he signed and not talked, didn't have enough socialization, and the cat was a danger because of scratches. A bed and a full room of his own was required and I was to stop cosleeping right then.

DS spoke about 15 words, but you had to be familiar with them to understand them. With signing, he had another 5-10 words. He has since picked up another 5-10, but again, you have to listen for them because they are that unclear toddler speak some have. Mainly, DS speaks in Onomatapeia (word sounds).

We had planned on getting rid of junk to make room for the new baby. That visit made us get rid of it all without caring. No more garage sales to get rid of it that way either. Just toss it into the garbage bin.

Daycare was demanded and we finally have it arranged. But not socialized? He's had two communicable diseases in the last 6 months nevermind Lice 3 months before that. If he wasn't being social, he wouldn't have had them!

And that cat - well, the logical consequence of torturing the cat is going to be cat scratches.

Cosleeping... well, we got the toddler bed required by the stoopidhead. We tried getting him to sleep in "his room" once. CIO does NOT work. So we moved it to our bedroom. He's slept in it once for a few hours. ONCE. He prefers sleeping in our bed.

We're also required to do parenting courses _right now_. Just one small problem with that - there are no parenting courses during the summer! And I'm not putting my newborn in daycare in order to do them come fall.

Then there's the letter we got yesterday with a blatant lie nevermind other allegations that the stoopidhead put in. Nor was there any acknowledgement for complying with their demands so far. Demands that were never put in writting until that letter showed up yesterday.

The lie? "Unexplained puncture marks" in DS's medical file. I saw the doctor's paperwork on that specific day mentioned. Nowhere in it is the words "unexplained" or "puncture" or "marks." There is, however, a differential diagnosis of "impetego-scabies-chickenpox."

Even our lawyer is saying that they are stretching the issues to justify their involvement in our lives.

And if I'm going through that shit what are others going through? I'm waiting for the demand that DS be vaccinated, ceasing breastfeeding, newborn in daycare, counscelling and even a court case.

That's what I've been going through with DS, nevermind with DD and how I lost her thanks to my mother interfering. Give me a private if you want the short form of what happened with her and the crap I went through in order to try to keep her and lost.

The forum, whether it is a subforum of Parenting or even Activism, is needed, and not just by me. There's a mother in town here who has been told by the judge that in order to get her children back, she'd have to prove to CPS she's no longer disabled (she's on a frelling ventalator), get a nanny and pay for it herself, have a room for each of the twins (2 kids only), and comply with a bunch of other requirements. How the hell is someone who can't even breathe on their own supposed to prove they aren't disabled???????

And if she's going through that hell, what are other parents going through? And not just in my city, province or country. What about the rest of North America or even the western world!


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I dunno.

I think people going through issues like that would be better served by having them in the forums in which their particular issue is related.

Like if there is a CPS issue in the VAx forums they are going to receive all sorts of fantastic advice and much more info than if it was in a seperate forum. What if all the super expert people who mostly post in forums in which they are very knowledgable don't read a CPS forum??

I think anyone dealing with such a crisis would get more info by just posting it in the forum it applies to most like co-sleeping, vax, bf..whatever.

JMO though. Of course my opinion doesn't reflect at all on whether or not such a forum would happen.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

What a nightmare, Mamid. Kinda makes you wonder what their motives are. Are they just trying to justify thier jobs or what? You'd think there would be enough real trouble out there without them having to create trouble where none exists. And is it really illegal to have your children share a bedroom? The vast majority of my friends (including myself) should all have our kids taken away if that were the case







I'm sure all these kids would be soooo much better off in foster care with thier own room than at home in a loving family, having to share a room with siblings- NOT


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Mamid---








Let me know if there is *anything* I can do, please.

People need to be aware that you can be *reported* for anything. That doesn't mean you will have a home visit, it doesn't mean you will have your kids watched or taken away, it doesn't mean anything other than that some yahoo can, for any reason, call CPS and report you. Unfortunatley, their response is, IMO, extreamly classist and possibly racist (depending on the area you are in). Luckily for me, we are firmly middle-class







or I'd be a lot more worried. AP parents, IMO, need to be more worried not necessarily because they are more *targeted* but because they are, by definition, more attached and the possible consequences are much harsher (for example, it would be devistating to me to leave my 2 year old for manditory parenting classes for a few hours, most mainstream parents would have no problems leaving their 2 year old a few DAYS, kwim?)








T

Quote:

I'm not extremely into NFL. KWIM?








Then why are you at a Natural Family Living site?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Our lawyer said that it doesn't matter where they sleep, but having a "room of their own" to play in would be a good idea. But of course, the social worker wanted not just a "room of their own" but a bed for DS, a crib for Bun, and no more co-sleeping.

Riiiiight... How am I supposed to breastfeed Bun then? Get up, go to the other room, sit and nurse, loose sleep, etc etc etc instead of rolling over and giving a tit?

Sure.....

And yes, we _know_ they are justifying their jobs considering we found them in a blatant lie.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

That is just bizarre! It's really upsetting knowing that taxpayer $$$ is going to persecute someone for *loving* their babies when tons of children are being beaten and abused RIGHT NOW and nothing is being done.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*








Then why are you at a Natural Family Living site?










Not everyone is *extremely*. Some of the AP/NFL practices are thing I do or hope to incorpirate into our lives. Some are not. I'm not going to start saving menstrual fluid for my garden just because some people do. (no, I have no problem with that, besides i'm pregnant) kwim? Some things mesh some don't. There are far more extreme or crunchy mamas here than I'd ever hope to be. And they rock.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Let's baby cry for hours at time without responding
Withholds food to comply with schedule in baby book
Vax with out fully understanding what sort of substances are being shot into babies body
Keeps baby in crib for long periods of time during the day to create independence.
As often as possible - puts baby in care of strangers.

Responds to baby's cry right away
Protects baby through the night
available to feed baby when baby is hungry
researches vaxing and makes educated choice as to what is right for their child
Keeps baby in close, secure contact through most of the day
Uses child care only when absolutly needed

Isn't it funny that the second type of parenting gets called on yet if you look at it on paper...it seems really clear!


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I don't think in most cases it's that simple of a line. It would make CPS job alot easier if it was but it is usually alot more complex than all that.

IE; I once knew a lady who was a really affectionate mother. She had a cute baby girl who was about 1. From the day I met her she seemed to be a really nice young woman who desperatly loved her child. Now, my opinion of that changed when I dropped by her house one day to give her some baby clothes. Her house was FILTHY! NASTY! He baby was dirty and the dog had torn up a dirty diaper and strewn it everywhere. There was trash and dirty dishes all over the place. It was litterally so dirty I couldn't sit down on the couch. While I was there over a period of 30 minutes (or until I could thiink of somewhere else I HAD to go) I witnessed some sick stiff. She repeatedly hit her kid. Yes, the 1 year old. Hit her with a wooden spoon and her hand on her legs, arms, and hands. Then after the poor kids whined for something to eat for a while she dumped a can of canned fruit out on the kitchen floor and sat her down in front of it and walked away.

Damn right I called CPS.

BUT, most people would never nisit her home and most people would nevr know what kind of mother she really was. She claimed it was because she was stressed since her husband had been in Saudi for a few months. They let her keep the kid. They did make her put her in daycare and clean her house.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kinipela79*
Let's baby cry for hours at time without responding
Withholds food to comply with schedule in baby book
Vax with out fully understanding what sort of substances are being shot into babies body
Keeps baby in crib for long periods of time during the day to create independence.
As often as possible - puts baby in care of strangers.

Responds to baby's cry right away
Protects baby through the night
available to feed baby when baby is hungry
researches vaxing and makes educated choice as to what is right for their child
Keeps baby in close, secure contact through most of the day
Uses child care only when absolutly needed

Isn't it funny that the second type of parenting gets called on yet if you look at it on paper...it seems really clear!

Its so twisted isn't it. I actually came to being a parent from being a veterinarian and looking at it from that perspective the way babies are treated in so-called civilized countries is so barbaric, and against nature (of course thats sadly true for animals too all too often). It is really sad. I really did not think the way I am choosing to raise my child in a 'free' country was extreme at all, I just thought it was normal. In times to come people will hopefully look back on this time in history as a time when people did not understand what babies need, and with far greater understanding.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

People need to be aware that you can be *reported* for anything.
That's exactly right. You can be reported for anything.

One of the complaints against us was that we don't use enough discipline - this was when stoopidhead* was looking into our "supports" and asking them for their opinions of us.

So, of course, stoopidhead talks to the 65+year old FIaL who wants us to spank our child every time he does anything wrong. And not with the flat of the hand either as laid out by the Supreme Court of Canada. He's mentioned to DP that we should be using the belt and other implements of parental authority on DS!

So, to him, we're not disciplining enough!

You just can't win with these people.

Then there's another one of stoopidhead's searched for complaints - that we don't clean enough. Shit, my mother was one who wanted her place hospital sterile all the time. It got to the point where I hated to clean. Now? I'm in between. Having a clean place is nice, but I don't want my place sterile. Stoopidhead is equating our place with places in complete squalor. Neither of our places were as bad as that site shows. Even when we were intruded on last year, we at least tried to keep the garbage in the garbage cans. Doesn't help that the previous stoopidhead showed up two days before garbage day and our landlady didn't let us put out any the week before!

When there's a smell in this place, I track it down and sterilize the area. But do I worry about dishes being done every day? Nope. Laundry? Nope. I'd rather worry about what my son is up to than whether or not my house is Stepforded.

There was another complaint in the letter - about _(hospital name) where you reported X was found ingesting contents of an open bottle of VIM._ So, because it is a "a medical visit of concern" it says to us that we shouldn't have brought our child in when we caught him bypassing CSA approved "Child cabinet locks" and might have ingested cleaning fluids?

You can't win with these people!

(* Stoopidhead = what Nani calls the social worker when he almost runs her over in Lilo and Stitch)


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

my~hearts~light - I know it doesn't always fit in nice neat 'lists'...I was just making a point that I notice a lot of people get cps called on them for things like breastfeeding and co sleeping where a family who does cio and spanking/swats are looked upon as normal and a "good" family. Know what I mean?


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Mamid - I am always curious as to why cps would want a stepford clean house when I would rather be with my children than bleaching down every surface (love those toxic fumes right??)!! I like to have a pretty neat house but DON'T look at my laundry pile ok?? tehe!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

They need something to bitch about...
Because "a disorganized house is a sign of a disorganized life" <= stoopidhead told DP that.
because messy house means lax parenting
because messy house means you don't care about your children's environment
because they can't be certain you have clean clothes or clean diapers for your children
because rotting food = food poisoning
because "dangerous things could be on the floor"
because they can use anything they want to prove to judges etc that you are a poor parent.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kinipela79*
my~hearts~light - I know it doesn't always fit in nice neat 'lists'...I was just making a point that I notice a lot of people get cps called on them for things like breastfeeding and co sleeping where a family who does cio and spanking/swats are looked upon as normal and a "good" family. Know what I mean?









Oh I know.. I was just making a point that often the people you see as good parents are the worst. And CPS will never bother most of them.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

No kidding. My mother's best friend, a nurse and had three kids, no one called on her. The last time I saw the kids, it was thanksgiving and she decided to start on a memory trip...

But instead of "do you remember the day we went camping when..."

It was "do you remember the day that I broke my umbrella over your butt?"







:

She beat me too one day with a wooden spoon. I had just gotten "home"(we were living with her) and didn't know she had just washed all the floors and went into the house to drop my bags off because I wanted to go play with the kids and she grabbed me, dropped my pants and beat me with the wooden spoon for "messing up the floor." I didn't even know she had washed the floor but that was no excuse because her two daugters were outside with her son and they should have told me!














:

My mother did nothing about that incident. Then again, my mother was worse than that woman was to me... But that woman was horrid to her children! Locking the 12 yo in the closet/storage room for the night under her dad could take her. Beating all four of us kids with wooden spoons - 12, 9, 9 and 3. Ignoring sexual abuse that was taking place... I could go on.

But then again, her place was spotless. So was my mother's. So because of that, they aren't abusive, nevermind how the place got to be spotless!


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Very, Very interesting thread! I am a social worker that works with children at risk for entering state custody. Many of my cases were started with CPS reports. There have been occasions that I got involved with families that I thought wre doing just fine and that someone, somewhere overreacted. I would say, however, that most of my familes do seriosly need some help. Parenting, housekeeping, proper nutrition etc. Several moms that I work with do co-sleep which I encourage as long as there are no drug abuse isssues. ( i co-sleep with ds) But, I know many other workers that really do think it is wrong and unsafe. I give my 2 cents as often as I can. I think that ap/nfl could possibly result in an unedcuated, misinformed worker to make bad judgements about those parents. I haven't seen any cases that resulted just from ap/nfl choices. Not that it couldn't happen.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

to say that i would LOVE a CPS forum.
my family was abused last year by CPS of Indiana, and i will never be silent about it.
sometime when the two little ones are sleeping and i'm not, i'll share the long story.
we were reported by a stranger (STILL don't know the guy a year later), and sent through four months of CPS hell. everything they did was to make me look like an evil person so that my daughter could be made a ward of the court (translation, cash cow).
the 'social' worker was the most callous, hateful, ignorant(dare i say 'stupid'?), person i have ever met. i would love to see her today and ask why she hated me before she met me.
i will never EVER, EVER be silent about it.
anyway, we are currently seeking the right lawyer (damage suit)and would love a place to chat with others who have been there, as well as offer any info that i learned along the trip.
peace all.
edited to say, that YES, it was our NFL choices that got us 'reported' and tormented.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Abused by CPS is a mild term for what they do to some families.

Legislated legalized kidnapping is another term I use for what they do with the children.

CPS in BC, otherwise known as MCFD has been in the news this week. Not one, but two families with severely disabled children came forward saying that they had to put their children in foster care because CPS wouldn't pay for the help the families need with their children. They'd get maybe $300/month for "extra help." The foster parents would get over $3000/month specifically to pay them for the care, plus respite (someone else taking over for a few hours to a few days) care, extra money for physiotherapy, other therapies, etc. One foster family was quoted at getting over $6000/month in cash, benefits, etc.

In other words, these disabled children are cash cows for CPS. Keeping them in care was more "cost effective" because not only did it employ the two foster parents, it also employed a whole slew of other people - social workers, councellors, therapists, doctors, etc - even though it would cost more than helping the families involved!

Its no wonder that CPS workers here lie. A justified job lasts longer than one that isn't.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Abused by CPS is a mild term for what they do to some families.

Legislated legalized kidnapping is another term I use for what they do with the children.

CPS in BC, otherwise known as MCFD has been in the news this week. Not one, but two families with severely disabled children came forward saying that they had to put their children in foster care because CPS wouldn't pay for the help the families need with their children. They'd get maybe $300/month for "extra help." The foster parents would get over $3000/month specifically to pay them for the care, plus respite (someone else taking over for a few hours to a few days) care, extra money for physiotherapy, other therapies, etc. One foster family was quoted at getting over $6000/month in cash, benefits, etc.

In other words, these disabled children are cash cows for CPS. Keeping them in care was more "cost effective" because not only did it employ the two foster parents, it also employed a whole slew of other people - social workers, councellors, therapists, doctors, etc - even though it would cost more than helping the families involved!

Its no wonder that CPS workers here lie. A justified job lasts longer than one that isn't.









:

That is so scary.

I'm in BC.









I had a public health nurse say to me, after finding out I didn't want to vax, "You WANT your child to die of pertussis?"
I don't remember what I said back, but I was pretty angry inside. What a manipulative thing to say!

I know someone personally who was abused by CPS. She had a very developmentally disabled daughter, and one time she missed two wellness visits in a row (both in the same week) because 1) she got very ill, and 2) her pipeline broke and cars parked all over her lawn and prevented her from leaving. The doctor called CPS, she got a caseworker from hell... one day the caseworker came by for a spontaneous visit and barged in to see a scab on the child's face (she was blind, and had fallen earlier. Mom didn't take her to the ER because she was scared of the stalking CPS worker, she was fine, btw) She seized her child. Her other children, took her to court for 4 years where they insulted, jeered, yelled at and tormented her. People literally called her a 'fat breeder'. She ran with her other children, they chased her across borders. they stole her newborn baby, less than 48 hours old before he had a birth certificate, right out of the nursery in the hospital. Over a period of years, they stole six children. She actually put restraining orders on dissident CPS worker who was stalking her in her home, by phone, following her.
I never knew how bad CPS was until I heard her story, and the story of so many others once I started looking into it... they have too much power, and they never take the right children.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

I am posting with some hesitation but here goes anyway. I know in my state, TN, there is a VERY strong push to keep kids out of state custody and at home with their families. I work for a private agency that gets referrals from state agencys--DCS, CPS and CSA ( community service agency). The last one also provides case managers to help familys at risk for losing their kids. My job is really to help families use various resources in their communities to lessen the possibility of the kid(s) going into state custody. There is a lot of money being put into services like these. I provide parenting education, anger management, counseling and transportation as well as just some overall help in navagating the "system". Like all things in our gov't the "system" sometimes doen't work the way it should. As I stated in my previous post, there are uneducated, misinformed "workers" that make bad judgement calls. There are also horrible judges that make crazy decisions in my opinion. There are also many kids in scary horrible, situations. Abusive parents that would make anyone on this site have trouble sleeping for a while. I would be justifiably as pissed as some of you , however, if someone started messing with my family b/c of the decisions I make with NFL and ap. I do not in anyway wish to suggest that those of you that have been violated by the system do not have the right to be this pissed, I just want to point out that not all social workers (not even CPS workers) are looking to put as many kids as possible into state custody. I know this thread was started so that those of you who have had these experinces could talk with each other, so I'll just lurk from now on, unless someone has any questions----


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I've heard of families in BC where the parents are told to split up in order for one or the other to get the children back.

Never happens.

Or about families where the mother messed up and ended up having an fas/fae child and gets continually punished for it even though she's straightened her life around.

Or visits being cancelled by the workers/supervisors and the parents getting no warning.

Or the foster parents being able to take the children Out Of Country to go to places like Dizneyland at the taxpayer's dime.

Or foster parents who split up but "mom" gets to keep the kids even though she's shacked up with someone knew. Do the real parents get a chance to try to get them back when that happens? HAH!

Then there's that place in Surrey - its a series of group homes for kids but instead of having dedicated staff members like foster parents, the staff comes and goes so the only continuity the kids have are that they stay in one place. Can we say potential to abuse? No continuity of care? I knew you could.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Old news report from CBC about foster kids in BC that's no more than 3 months old currently. Its about "independant living. Its a RAM (real audio) news blurb.

Of the 10,000 or so kids in foster care, 2,000 are between 16-19. 400 are under "independant living contracts." Foster care costs up to 2500/child/month. Independant living costs 750/month.

And once you're 19, you get 1000$ and are kicked out of foster care with no further help.

Yet another reason why I hate CPS in BC.


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## obeyacts2 (May 29, 2004)

CPS has way too much power. I understand that in some horrific cases they do need to step in (drug abusing parents, etc). What i object to in CA, is that under our child abuse reporting system, once you have been accused of something, it follows you forever, even if you arent arrested or convicted or anything. So, anytime you apply for a job that rquires a background check, here it comes again. Ditto for adopting or applying to do foster care, etc. That is way unfair.........I mean I could call and say my neighbor is beating their kids or whatever, and BINGO they have a record as child abusers.

Lauuura


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

CPS has way too much power because no politician wants to be seen as "anti child abuse protection" and cutting back on CPS powers and abilities would be exactly that.

So they are allowed to run amok without watchdog organizations to at least slow them down nevermind actually advocate for parents who simply want their children back.

On the news last night - yet another family has come forward saying that MCFD here will only give their disabled child the supports its needs so long as its in foster care.

Here's the original article: (you have to search for it and it'll be gone in another week)

Quote:

Disabled boy forced into foster care, parents say
But ministry says more resources are available
http://www.canada.com/search/story.h...8-b6b88c3556df
Keith Fraser
The Province

July 12, 2004
A Delta couple says the B.C. government forced them to make the heartbreaking decision to put their severely disabled son in foster care.
(snip)
The Hatzisavvas said the ministry told them Nickolas could be put on its at-home program, but they said the $233-a month government cheque would have been woefully inadequate.
(snip)
They said they continuously battled the ministry for more help but were told nothing more could be done -- short of placing the boy in foster care.
(snip)
"Now they [the B.C. government] are paying this foster family, which is a great family, they pay this family $3,000 a month and on top of that they get all the services they need covered and on top of that any respite [care] they need covered as well," said Mario Hatzisavva, 27, a Canada Post letter carrier.

"From a monetary standpoint, you think, 'Why couldn't they give us a portion of that to bring our son home?' "
(snip)
The couple said they were warned not to speak to the press or face unspecified repercussions.
(snip)
She (the Minister Responsible Christie Clark) said foster care is a safety net for families when times are tough and the voluntary agreement can be amended to give them the needed services for Nickolas to be at home.

"Those options are always available for parents," she said. "In this particular case it's a matter of the family to make sure they talk to their social worker and let them know that they want to bring their child home."
[email protected]


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## Mommy StormRaven (Jan 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
Why would CPS be concerned with AP parents? Is gentle discipline something to call them about these days? I can understand why some would see non-vaxing as dangerous but otherwise I'm LOST.


Very simple really. Because it is differnt than what they know and have done wiht their own children. They see it as a threat becuase our children are growing up in a positive way and their needs are being met. In some cases they simply feel guilt for not APing their won children and so take that out on those of us that do.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Because AP parents are also generally non-vaxing, homeschooling, cosleepers.

(insert sarcasm)

Didn't you know that not vaxing is wrong? The herd must be protected from nasty virii that are sooo dangerous. After all, vaxes don't cause any medical problems. That's just antivax propoganda!

Didn't you know that homeschooling is wrong? Children should be in daycare from the time they are 6 weeks old! Heaven forbid that the parents would actually know how to raise them! Who knows what they are being taught if it isn't government approved dogma!

Didn't you know that co-sleeping is wrong? Every child has to have their own bed from birth and they can't sleep in a room shared by anyone else! And don't you dare sleep in the same bed as your child - you could smother them! Sids isn't that big of a danger - just have them sleep on their backs and nevermind the head moulding!

(end sarcasm)


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Didn't you know that co-sleeping is wrong? Every child has to have their own bed from birth and they can't sleep in a room shared by anyone else! And don't you dare sleep in the same bed as your child - you could smother them! Sids isn't that big of a danger - just have them sleep on their backs and nevermind the head moulding!
(end sarcasm)


Don't forget that family bedded kids will grow up to be "Sexually deviant". That's what countless doctors told my mother when she co-slept with me.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I think if all cps workers were aware of the LAW, and held accoutable, there would be way less time wasted with stupid investigations re: NFL/AP, and they could devote time to REAL problems. It isn't against the law to cosleep, extend nurse, not vax, etc.......so why bother? Some states even have laws that CPS cannot investigate due to failure to vax (I know that IL is one of those states- I'm sure Dr's threaten, and may even call, but legally, CPS cannot open an investigation due to that issue). Here in AZ there is also language similar to that on the books. They cannot open an investigation because of alternative or even no medical care (unless it is a true emergency). Where I live, the current staff at cps is well aware of the vax laws and such, yay!

It is very scary that a perfect stranger with their own agenda has the power to take your kids away. And then a judge who has never met you or your children can keep them away. I'm involved with cps (I'm a foster parent), and I'm still scared of them lol.

On the flip side, are us foster parents who see true abuse cases and see these poor kids being damaged and jerked around by the system- moved around for no reason, sent home when they shouldn't be, etc.

Sigh. I became a foster parent to help change a horrible system, and I'm really losing what little confidence I had. I had a 20month old fd. She was taken from her home for VERY legitimate reasons. Places with a realitive for a week, then went into foster care when the relative placement wasn't deemed fit enough (she was fit enough, the reasons they had were semi-valid though). Went into a good foster home. However, that foster mom could only keep her for a few weeks, so just when the poor kid was getting used to her home, she had to be moved. I got the call, but I was on vacation in CA and couldn't get back for a few days (I was driving and car was in the shop, it had died while I was there). So, they put her in another foster home for two days until I got back, and then placed her with me. I was her fourth home in a month. Due to the proven allegations, she was supposed to stay with me for six months. However, she went home after only four weeks because the attorneys cut a deal. Her mom never even went to parenting classes or counseling.

My point is, there are awful people and stupid decisions by all sides of CPS.....it really seems to make no rhyme or reason. I don't understand any of it at all.









Kristi


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

That's just it... Many of them either don't know the law or their own mandate/legislation lets them circumvent it. They don't need a warrant to come in and check your house out here because if you don't let them, they can and will get a police officer to come with them and the police will side with the worker! After all, they are there for the "benefit/safety/etc of the child" not any of the parents rights as guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, nevermind stuff outlined in the Criminal Code of Canada.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is null and void once a parent comes under their watchful eyes. If a parent decides to assert their rights as defined by the charter, such as the right to not self-incriminate, they take it as a sign of guilt and use it as proof to take the child away list the child "in need of protection."

So, there is no law that can stop them here. And parents that have tried to fight them using the Charter has had those cases thrown out by judges who don't see the damage MCFD(CPS) is doing here.

How can I, a 33 week pregnant woman who is undergoing investigation because the intake worker saw a "trend" or "pattern" and has decided to outright lie, fight them when the stress of fighting them is detrimental to my pregnancy? I don't even feel as if I can bond with my unborn baby because of how they are intruding in our lives. How can I fight them when they walk all over us with their demands and more? DS gets assessed on Thursday by the child development people. If he isn't ahead in everything but speech, I know they'll use that against just as they are using his "slow talking" already!

At least the daycare people are saying what we've been saying - that he's intelligent. So intelligent that he gets through child proofing! And the social worker didn't believe us when we said that almost two months ago! Intelligent, independant... And he does socialize - with older kids, not with ones his own age. Those kids are "too boring" for him because they aren't as quick or as physically able as he is - and these are the ones that aren't "slow" or "disabled" in any way! Even his cousin who is 6-7 months older than he is is "slow" compared to him and he's right on the "normal" curve including speech.

So, how am I supposed to fight them? He's in daycare because of the threat that was made - "he's not socialized enough. he's too intrusive. he doesn't talk." The implied threat was that if we didn't get him "socialized" they were going to do it for us - ie: pick out the daycare and force us to take him there instead of us being able to choose which one to take him to. Some choice. And if we didn't comply with the daycare, the threat was removal.

At least FiAL finally got the pic today. DP was talking to him and clued him in that yes, the people FIaL dealt with concerning child support of youngest son are the same people who deal with CPS issues. Different branch, but same people. Welfare, CPS and Child support were all 1 ministry 15 years ago, then they started to split. If you're a welfare worker, you can transfer laterally to the CPS or Child support divisions. So that clued him in as to some of the hell we're going through with what happened with him and his now deceased wife and their youngest son.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I had trouble with CPS not because of my AP styles, but because of the people who watched my youngest, DH and my oldest daughter.

As a SAHM, I never, NEVER had a problem that needed the attention of an ER.

DH, who was not very baby savvy, insisted on watching DS; well, I ended up at the ER twice within three months and I found myself surrounded by seven police officers.

The story is on the vax forum.

When I was questioned about other things as vaxing, I let the ER doc know that my son was completely taken care of. Otherwise, I would have lost him.

I wrote a letter to Mothering Magazine and begged them on the phone to print it in the letters section. They did not. They said it was too long - ? I do not think they or anyone else want to bother with CPS. I know I did not want to bother with them. If they had at least printed it, perhaps they could have at least alerted a few momas to the dangers of CPS and their rights in such situations.

VERy sad and very dangerous.

There is a group called VOCAL - victims of child abuse laws, and they have lots of trouble being funded. - CPS does not seem to have a problem being funded because they have OUR MONEY$$$







and they ruin our lives with it


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
That's just it... Many of them either don't know the law or their own mandate/legislation lets them circumvent it. They don't need a warrant to come in and check your house out here because if you don't let them, they can and will get a police officer to come with them and the police will side with the worker! After all, they are there for the "benefit/safety/etc of the child" not any of the parents rights as guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, nevermind stuff outlined in the Criminal Code of Canada.


They try the same in the United States, yet we have the Fourth Amendment to the United States, and they show up at the door step with a police officer but no warrant.

They need a warrant - NO MATTER what they say.

Let them go stand before a judge and plead their case. Then when they have the warrant, you can prep and be ready. That is your right - utilize it.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Nope. Not in Canada.

Three different lawyers told us the same thing: if they show up at your door and you don't let them in that's the same thing as saying that you abuse your child and they will use that as "just cause" to take your child.

It is the equivalent of a cop asking to come in and you say no. To them, that means you have something to hide.

The Charter is just a bunch of words written on paper not worthy of being use in the bathroom when it comes to social workers. They also don't need warrants to see medical records or other records.

And that was told to us directly by a social worker and confirmed by our lawyer.

Which of course pissed us off to no end.

As for using the right that allows not to incriminate ourselves - if you try to invoke that, three different lawyers told us the same thing, they will use it as a "guilty" assumption and take your child. In other words: You do not have a right to remain silent in Canada. There is no Miranda here. You only have the right to get an councel as soon as possible. But you can't "plead the fifth."

Gawds.. maybe we should move to the states. Medical is horrid, but at least then we'd have the various amendments to help us. Oh wait.. we wouldn't count because we're not citizens. The Patriot Act cancels out the amendments to your constitution!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

Then why are you at a Natural Family Living site?
'Cause it's interesting, informative, supporting. And for the reasons My Hearts Light listed.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *obeyacts2*
CPS has way too much power. I understand that in some horrific cases they do need to step in (drug abusing parents, etc). What i object to in CA, is that under our child abuse reporting system, once you have been accused of something, it follows you forever, even if you arent arrested or convicted or anything. So, anytime you apply for a job that rquires a background check, here it comes again. Ditto for adopting or applying to do foster care, etc. That is way unfair.........I mean I could call and say my neighbor is beating their kids or whatever, and BINGO they have a record as child abusers.

Lauuura

This is very true and very unfair.

I have lived what I believe to be a good, upstanding life. I have always had to set a good example for, first, my younger siblings, and then my own children. I feel I rose to the occassion. To have a police officer call you a "dirty, filthy whore" for no reason and then lie on a police report is inexcuseable.

I have only had some satisfaction when I am called on by the local police for the policeman's ball or some sort of nonsense and I let them have it!


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I am hearing a lot of pain on this thread and I am so sorry for all of your losses and bad experiences.

I do have to say that not all social workers are like this. My sister has a fs right now that was horribley abused. He finally ended up in the hospital for 3 weeks at 7 months. I wish that someone called CPS before he ended up there. The injuries have been dated to at least 3 different episodes of abuse. The social workers are so nice. They visit him and bring him presents. It is a relative placement, and fs was in another foster home for a few weeks while they were getting certified. Until recently we lived in the same home as them, so I have first hand knowledge.

His mother took off to CA. She is not even trying to live up to her contract with the state. Very resonable - attend school, stop seeing the abuser, get a job type things. The state of Oregon did every thing possible to get her back together with the baby. EVERYTHING. She even had her own social worker whose entire job was to help her get him back. They are now severing her rights and my sister and BIL are going to adopt him. And you know what? The baby deserves a steady, safe home and she is not providing that. I am glad to know that if she has another baby she will automatically be suspect. The system does not always work, yes bad things happen. But the state MUST have the right to protect children. What it the alternative that you are suggesting?

As to the amount of money that my sister gets...she gets just enough to cover diapers and formula - $300 (if it was not a relative foster situation she would get $400). And her job is HARD. Her foster son has terrible nightmares and screams at night. He has an attachment disorder. He has fits where he screams for hours and all she can do is hold him. She quit her job to stay with him and nurture him and the social workers are GLAD that he is not in daycare. She and most people that have a couple of foster children are not in it for money. I find it so insultive for them that you think that the social workers are stealing babies to keep their jobs. They have dozens of children each to watch over. They don't need anymore.

As to NFL....the social workers know that we co-sleep (they did a house visit and walk through when dh was still sleeping with our son and they walked right by the room). We don't even have a crib. They know that I breastfeed and intend to till self-weaning. In fact one of them suggested that my sister have me "hook him up" and pointed out that wetnursing is not against the law in Oregon. They know that we don't vac. we have talked about it while they are around. My sister has to follow the scheduled vac. by law however. They have no intention of taking my babies from me. Recently when my daughter was sexually abused by my nephew (the thread is on mothering somewhere) we called CPS and asked them what to do. They helped get us resources for help. I talked to the social worker about the "Pearls" method of childrearing and she said she was going to go on their website so that she could warn the other social workers about it. All of the class that my sister and BIL have taken have focused on GD methods. They came over in the middle of us packing to move and said nothing about the horrible mess.

I am not meaning to dis-validate your experiences at all. Just giving another side. I realize that it is different to deal with them from the foster side of this and not the accused side. This thread upset me so much that I left Mothering for an entire week to think through what I wanted to say. I really think that you are right that there has to be accountability, but children can not be left unprotected.

Mamid - can you request a different worker? The one that you have sounds terrible and mean. They can't all be like that. I hope that everything works out and you get through this soon.

Victorian


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I can't request a new social worker because the stupidhead that wrote the letter saying our DS was "in need of protection" is a: on vacation and b: only an intake worker.

We still haven't met with our "actual" social worker. Our lawyer has talked to him and since he isn't bugging us or her about us, we're just trying to lay low.

DS is currently sick with *something* but we don't know what it is other than a runny nose. No fever. Only coughs right after naps... No daycare today(mon), but we're going to call tomorrow(tues) and see if they'll take him. If they don't, we'll find something for him to do.

The assesment worker is coming by to drop off the eval tomorrow. And I've got a kidney infection and am fighting it off to. See my post in "pregnancy" forum here for that rant...


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Wow. First off to answer the original question or rather, to add my own 2 cents. As a new member to MDC, I am really enjoying learning about all these new things. However, I am not a martyr, nor so strong in nearly any belief that If CSD showed up on my door and said they would take away my baby for co-sleeping, non vaxxing etc... I'd be running over backwards to do what I could to keep my baby. It's wrong that they have that much power, I know. Anyways, if in my first week here (while I was still very *For* punishment, looked at breastfeeding past a year as *not for me*, etc. ) I ran across a forum about all these horror stories of people being turned in for the AP/NFL way of life, yeah- I admit I would have probably left quicker then speedy gonzalez. After a week here and having my views shift *sooo* much, I am equally outraged about all these CPS/CSD calls. However, in the beginning it really would have deterred me- thus deterring a future AP hopeful...Its not right, but its the truth through a newbies eyes.. Peace & love, Katie

(PS) I think it would be much better to just post your horror stories in the appropiate forum. Like Vax CPS/CSD issues in the vax forum, etc. You guys need support, I know!!!


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

"I find it so insultive for them that you think that the social workers are stealing babies to keep their jobs. "

trust me, victorian, the fact that it's true is much more insulting! i can't say enough about how these people tend to be ethnocentric, power hungry people who ENJOY watching you squirm. in my case i was merely threatened over and over again.
'you seem like a loving and attentive mother. because you have complied with my investigation, i'm going to let you take your daughter home today'
wow, and that was just the beginning. i am saddened to say that i believe them to be about helping children about as much as texaco is about protecting the environment.


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Thanks Victorian, for adding some balance to this thread. I, too, am sorry for those on here who have had negative experiences with CPS.

I have worked for CPS for 3 years and am an AP parent. AND many of my co-workers at CPS are also AP parents!! GASP!!

Please, no one is going to take your children away from you b/c you co-sleep or delay vaccinations!!! There has got to be much more to the story than that. I deal with parents every day who beat their children senseless, burn them with cigarettes, sexually abuse them, ETC.... THAT is what CPS is all about-- helping children who cannot help themselves.

I don't think too many people go into social work and into the CPS field for the money or glamour-- we get paid less than teachers. I have a Masters degree, too!

And for the record, it is CPS policy to do EVERYTHING we can to keep families together-- that is the ultimate goal of the agency.... We all realize foster care is NOT the way children should be raised.

I'm sorry, but I just had to put my 2 cents in--- this thread is so biased, I can hardly believe it. It's like saying the police are all corrupt-- yes, maybe 5% of police are not in the field for the 'right' reasons, but the VAST majority is, and we DO unfortunately need police, AS WELL as CPS. I wish we didn't.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

candace- it is nice to see a view from someone working in the field- because obviously most everyone else dosnt. i am also glad to see that you are a fellow AP parent.
im wondering if you might enlighten us about exactly how CPS workers are motivated-
meaning i have read alot about there being some kind of bonus for taking a child from a home... i know you say that CPS wants to keep families together but how do they go about doing that...like what is the normal way things play out when you go in for a call?
i am not trying to antagonize, just get information, and if i sound unclear its cause i am not very good at NAK !


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

It depends on which CPS you are dealing with.

MCFD in BC's mandate is not reunification of the family.

Nor is CAS in Ontario.

There might be a CPS group that does try to keep the family together, but that's not the horror stories I've been seeing on the web.


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Liz,
There is absolutely NO bonus for taking babies!!! EECK! I can't even believe that people think that! It's scary. Anyway, the way CPS works, is that we receive a report from whomever (neighbor, teacher, doctor, friend) and we determine if we need to investigate based upon MANY criteria (I don't want to bore you with too many details). If it is decided upon that an investigation should happen, then a caseworker has either 24 hours (for emergency situations) or up to 10 days to go and visit with the child and see what is going on. We then speak with the parents, and any other people who could provide info on the child and family. If at that point, we determine that the child is at imminent risk of danger, we remove the child and place him/her into relatives or foster home (after getting approval from the judge). If we don't feel as though the child is in imminent danger, but that there are some concerns, we may open a case and try to help out the family with whatever they may need (therapy, drug counseling, job assistance, WIC, etc...) All these decisions are also run by our supervisors, so it's not just the caseworkers who are making these huge decisions. We ultimately answer to the judge, who determines if the child should be removed from the home or not-- and where they should go. We basically provide info for the judge to make the decisions-- we give recommendations that they sometimes agree with , and sometimes they don't. Here in TX, we work with the families for up to a year, providing them with all types of services, such as domestic violence counseling, drug treatment, etc... and if they somewhat work with us and we feel as though they can provide a safe place for their children, then their children are returned (if they ever left-- many times they do not leave the home, but the parents receive services). If the are totally uncooperative, then their children do not usually return home (again, based on the judge's decision), and they go to live with relatives or get adopted (or live in a foster home if they choose not to be adopted). We basically try to provide a permanent, safe and loving home for the children-- 1st choice is with their birth parents, 2nd choice is with relatives, 3rd is adoption....

And just to clarify, CPS workers go through intensive training for 2 months prior to starting to work in the field, and then are required to do ongoing training each year.

I hope I have answered your questions-- again, I just feel perplexed as to why people are so against CPS-- I understand several of you had bad experiences with them for whatever reasons, but you have to remember that we are totally judged for either doing too much or doing too little-- it is a very complex, messy and emotionally draining job. We are constantly being audited, reviewed, etc., by the state legislature, the state gov't, and the fed gov't. We do the best we can, but we are pretty underfunded and understaffed so there are going to be problems resulting from those things....


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

while i do know that there are people around who burn their children with cigarettes, i don't know them personally.
i DO know people like myself, who have had their civil rights thrown out the window in order to get another child in the system.
my child wasn't abducted, really, they harmed her father and i directly much worse than her.
however, their illegal child in need of services petition cost us over two thousand dollars to go against, only to have them drop the case before we could tell our story to a county judge (in a county we didn't even live in). funny, they didn't pay us back for the lost wages they cost us, our child's depleted college fund, and i can't put a price tag on the nervous breakdown i had when an unmarked van pulled into our driveway and rang the bell a month later (it turned out to be a delivery of flowers for my newborn son and i).
i didn't need services when CPS showed up in my life, but i could use some therapy now to get over the fear and trauma they caused me.
the story is of course, long, and complicated. i hope i can get around to typing it this weekend when my husband can take the kiddos for a long walk.


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Unoppressed Mama,
I am really sorry for what you have gone through--- I can feel your pain through reading your posts. If you'd like any help with making any kind of sense about it all, let me know and I can maybe try and help.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

i appreciate that.
right now what is bringing me the most healing is SPEAKING out, speaking truth to power, and trying my best to educate family and social services about AP (i was harassed for cosleeping, althought that wasn't in their petition, my sling was called 'weird', and although i explained clearly and patiently our religious preference (valid in IN) NOT to vaccinate, that did make it into the petition (...child needs to receive necessary immunizations).
i WAS in a place that i needed help with my daughter, but not the kind that they were able to provide, and i had already been seeking it on my own. my daughter was having a malnutrition issue, but it was NOT due to any sort of neglect.
(i shouldn't have checked here, every time i do i start spending more time than i shoule typing!
i'm going to make a 'no internet when kids are up' policy.)
anyway, they came along at a time when i was calling on my community for help, getting it, and turned a moderately stressful time into a horrible nightmare that i hope to surpass someday soon. until then, the nightmares continue and i am just now starting to put paranoia behind me (i was reported by someone who never met me-an OB who thinks that homebirthers are "shitheads").
all i can say is that the caseworker assigned to us was culturally inept, rude, cold, shallow, and yes, i have come to not be able to avoid labeling her as outright stupid. and there are 800 other caseworkers in our state alone, i wonder where she falls on the nice-evil continuum...
thanks for reading, this is healing to let it out...
i think that people are getting trampled like this all the time. when my case was dropped, i was told over and over, just move on, don't complain, don't sue, don't keep living it. this is how power works, through our silence. i have talked with legisaltors about our ordeal, and am glad, b/c so many said, that they would never have guessed...
i have even been apologized to by persons within CPS for the abuse we lived through, but that doesn't do much when you know that they aren't doing ANYTHING to ensure it won't happen again, to you or others.
so, on we fight, the first step is letting others know. peace all. i'm off to nurture two little people into learnig compassion, understanding, non-violence and love. that's REALLY the most important way i can help the world right now. by loving my two sweet babies. i just don't want that interfered with by an outside force that has no real vested interest in who they are.
funny, those things never made it into any file about us...


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

that's just it. there is no sense to be made once CPS/DYF/ETC enters your lives. If you don't obey the worker, they can, will and do legally kidnap your children, if they haven't done so already.

Once they have your children, it is almost impossible to get them back. I have heard from many many parents where just as they were finishing the last "hoop" to jump through, new, harder ones were put into place and the entire process was started again.

Or of families that have to split up in order for the parents "to comply" with worker's demands. Husbands and wives forced out of the family home because one or the other has been found "unsuitable" to be around the children, whether biologically related or not all because of a "concern."

There's sites on the web - tons of them - that talk of the horrors parents and children go through. Foster kids who just wanted to go home but weren't allowed because some worker didn't want to even think of listening to them.

What really steams me about the entire system is that when a foster child reaches the age of majority here, they are given a thousand dollars and are left to their own devices. Whereas parents are still responsible up until the children are 25 if they are with their natural family - especially if the kids are in college or university.

Its as if our children are disposable sources of income and once they reach the age of majority when they are no longer usefull, they are simply tossed away like trash.

And the damage they do to parental psyches, nevermind pocketbooks, while doing their "work" demoralizes them. Parents that survive one session with CPS feel as if they have no power over their childrens' lives. What if the worker shows up again? What will they have to do that time to get the workers off their backs?

And former foster kids or kids that were "treated" by CPS workers once they become parents are "red flags" should anyone complain about them. So it becomes a generational thing. Instead of stoping when the file is closed, CPS suddenly has a whole new set of cash cows to go after.

CPS has way too much power. Sure they are "overworked" and "underpaid" but so is every single parent no matter what they do for paid or unpaid work.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I think the key here is how much POWER CPS workers have. Sure, lots of them are nice sensible intelligent informed people. But as Mamid points out, they don't *have* to be sensible, intelligent, or informed, let alone nice, to walk into your house and remove your children based on their personal feelings about your parenting practice. They can walk in with all kinds of issues and judge your parenting through those issues ... and I worked with them on the other side of the equation, as an abused minor, and I can tell you some of them are just f***ed up individuals who were NOT fit to be working in the best interests of parents & children!

Plus the fact that you're not breaking any laws won't stop them if they decide you're doing something "wrong". They can remove your kids or harass your family UNTIL you prove you're not breaking any laws, and even that's iffy.

And parents shouldn't have to hope that a CPS worker will be "nice" enough to respect their civil rights! Arghh!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

In any other legal matter of a criminal nature - and child abuse and neglect is definitely criminal - the accused is "innocent until proven guilty." But not when it comes to CPS and their mandates. If we try to uphold our countries civil liberties, we are immediately assumed guilty of whatever it is we are accused of. No trial. No judge. No jury. Just a worker with a mandate to "protect" children instead of getting to the truth. After all, only a guilty person would "lawyer up" or assert their freedoms as guaranteed by their country's constitutions and laws.

And they never get to the truth if they can avoid it completely.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I think that you both need to reread the post above that explains the procedures used. You are basing your complaints on the actions of a couple of workers and blaming the entire system. They don't get any money for your babies. They are not selling them into slavery in another country. They can not take them without other (such as judges and in Oregon a citizen review board) agreeing that they need a better home. I doubt that if you open a random chart you would find "co-sleeps and wears baby in a sling" as the reason for removal.

They are doing their best to protect children. They make mistakes like all people do. I still have not seen any ideas about how to change the system to protect children. What would you have the government do? Close the system so babies like my sisters fs can sit in a crib somewhere with broken legs, strangle marks and a burnt off ear so that the rights of the mother can be protected? What can you do to help the children that are in the system? Can you volunteer with a group like CASA?

I know that you are in pain, and maybe that is blocking your vision. It seems that you have a social worker here on line that is willing to help you understand what is happening and help you in other ways. What a great resources.

Victorian


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

You're talking about a system with anonymous tip lines where anyone can accuse a parent of any wrong doing with their child and not have to face that person in court. Any other crime, an accuser or even a witness may be supoenaded in order to determine the validity of the accusations.

Let's see... stuff that was in my daughter's file...

"Mother's concerns about allergies are all in her head."
"Mother not vaxing."
"Mother still co-sleeping."
"Baby not being fed three meals and snacks. Mother is breastfeeding." <= this was at 9 months! The pediatrian they had me take her to told them she should be on 3 squares and snacks!
"Baby hasn't gained weight." <= no mention of her being active, healthy, and at least 6 months ahead of her peers in physical and mental development.
"Child said that Mama X (me) not Mama K (foster mom) broke 'it' and pointed to her private parts." <= my mother accused me of that. I recognize HER handwritting. She did the same thing to my father when I was my daughter's age and my father hadn't seen me in years at that point!
"Mother doesn't dress her child properly." <= she picked out the clothes and they were the clothes my bitch of a mother was "kind" enough to make sure I had. I'm still missing tons of clothes and property and not just of my daughter's, but mine! Including a TV, a 12 cubic foot deep freeze...

And that's just the stuff they decided not to censor. I was supposed to have visits, but "at the discretion of the director." Within a month of her going into continuing care - not permanent care - she was up for adoption! Tell me that wasn't baby selling?????

And tell me why her foster mother got to adopt her when she herself had a marital breakdown and shacked up with another man????? AND adopted another child???????!!!!!!!! Every single child in her care should have been taken no matter what their adoption or foster care status was! And she moved the kids 1000 miles away from the cities they were born in so my chance of ever seeing my daughter is slim if negligible.

I'm treading a thin line here with internet contact as it is. I get the odd photo, but that's about it.

With DS, the worker flat out lied saying that there was a "trend" to messiness, the cat was a vicious animal (two seperate cats he's amalgamated into 1), that seeking medical treatment because DS got past the "CSA APPROVED" child safety locks was a bad thing, that his chicken pox was "unexplained puncture marks," that I'm more concerned over my animals than my children (and what would you do if the worker threatened your little kitten with declawing in a raccoon and coyote infested area?).

I guess we weren't supposed to go through our property for a garage sale. Or have animals. Or seek medical attention for our child when we thought he might have poisoned himself. Or try to get an 8 week case of chickenpox dealt with....

Thank goodness our lawyer is running interference for us or I'd be worse off than I am.

Shall I start posting websites about what CPS does to other parents? Just because they have "procedures" to follow doesn't mean they do.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

How to start fixing the CPS system:

Remove any anonymity from callers/complainers/reporters.

Remove mandatory reporting laws.

Appoint an Ombudsman who watches over and regulates CPS and has the power to implement their own findings. The Ombudsman would be a watchdog to make sure no parental or child rights were infringed upon and that all procedures were followed. This would be a seperate agency from CPS with access to all CPS files. If police have to have their internal investigators, why doesn't CPS?

Have the legislation that runs CPS voted on by either the public or constituency representatives.

No more posting of children for adoption on internet websites - especially not those whose parental rights haven't been terminated!

Have CPS workers actually take an oath of office similar to what police, peace officers, and members of legislative and parliaments (etc) have to take. They are acting like peace officers so they should also follow all local, provincial/state and national laws - including civil liberty laws. IE: a person should be able to invoke their rights under those laws without it being a red flag and CPS workers should inform the people they are investigating of their rights immediately upon a first visit/telephone call/etc.

That all contact with CPS workers be done with an impartial witness - video cameras do wonders for that.

That children do not have contact with CPS workers without a video camera (or some other recording device) and an advocate present. The advocate would be an impartial third person for the child that would not work directly with CPS. This could be a lawyer, a parent, a guardian, someone from the Ombudsman's office, etc.

No strip searches of children under any circumstance at any age unless an advocate, guardian, parent, doctor, lawyer etc is present or CPS has obtained a warrant to that effect. Having a recording device not only the children involved but also the CPS worker. It comes down to the addage "Justice must not only be done, it must be _seen_ to be done."

That any councelling involving any parties be done in private and those records should be treated just like a doctor's records. Without client/patient privilege, councelling just doesn't work. How can a parent be honest with a councellor if the councellor talks to the CPS worker about what the parent is saying or if the records themselves are given to the worker as a matter of due course. _Put it like this : how open would you be with any person if you knew that they would be immediately in touch with someone who may not have your best interest at heart and looking for something to use against you?

CPS needs to be treated as a division of the police force and not as it currently is. As it is right now they have several police powers. They can conduct search and seizures. They can request records. They do investigations. They interview people. It is recommended that people get a lawyer to deal with CPS properly. All these things are make CPS a police force with reguards to a specific area of "crime." If they have police powers, they need to be treated like a police force and be responsible for their actions as well. They should receive a level of training similar to that of a police officer's. They should be made to swear an oath to uphold the law. And they should be held accountable like police officers. As it is, there is no accountability - at least not within Canada as well as many of the 50 states.

CPS might be doing justice by children, but until there is some accountability for their actions, no one sees it as justice. All the public sees is government sponsored vigilantees.

Several children in foster care were murdered in BC within the last decade. No social worker lost their job over any of them. There was no accountability. In court, instead of saying that it is the social worker that wants the parents to do X Y and Z, their lawyer says that "the Director" wants X Y and Z to be done. And "the Director" often has no knowledge of what is actually going on in a specific case. He, or she, is simply a figurehead to sign all the "big" paperwork like the legislation. When a serious mistake is made, someone needs to be held accountable. Preferably the people actually working the case and not a career bureaucrat who gets shifted to another post or position.

To the CPS workers on this thread: a question: if you were interviewing a parent for the first time and they said to you "I am invoking my (rights to avoid self incrimination)," would that or would that not raise flags to you and cause you to investigate deeper on its own? You can reply to that question privately if you wish._


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)




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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

*curtsy*
thank you.


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Great suggestions, Mamid! But here in TX, most of all the things you mentioned are already in place!! I guess your system is quite different in Canada.

Children are NEVER strip searched, or looked at by CPS workers in their private areas-- this is a big no-no. Only a doctor can do this.

Children are all appointed an attorney ad-litem who is NOT part of CPS and works for their behalf.

There is an Ombudsman in place that has power to review our files and file complaints and they are not related to CPS.

The TX legislature is where most of our policies and rules come from, and all the legislators are voted in by constituents!

I don't feel that removing anonymity from callers/reporters is the best thing, since most people are very afraid of calling in and then having the parents come and retaliate. This would make abuse continue to happen in many circumstances, since people would be afraid to call in.

MANY people have reports against them, but most of the time an investigation isn't even opened. We realize a small percentage of callers are just making a report to hurt someone, such as people engaged in a vicious custody battle, or some other personal issue. So we take all that into account, and most of the time it is pretty obvious when someone is just saying things to get CPS involved. And again, CPS can't just go out to a home and remove children without the judges permission, and it has to be a serious safety issue (the children have to be in imminent danger).

I realize the system is imperfect, and I am all for continuing to make progress in how we help children and families. This agency is constantly changing in order to best serve the community. No one wants to be involved in CPS, and many people who are on those anti-CPS websites are those who feel like the government can't tell them how they are going to discipline their children, so if they want to lock them in a closet all night for punishment, that should be ok. CPS does not have a position on breastfeeding, co-sleeping, etc, but does take into account if a child is not gaining weight, or if they appear developmentally delayed. We have to look at the big picture in determining what the best plan of action is.

In TX, children are not at all eligible or up for adoption until the parental rights are terminated.

No, I wouldn't be that alarmed/concerned if a parent told me that they would like legal representation when doing an investigation. It happens all the time. If they are really appearing to try and hide their home, their children, etc. and get hostile with me, then that may start to raise some red flags however. But I do realize that people get very stressed, emotional, mad, etc. when CPS begins questioning them...so we do take that into account as well. As you can see, these issues are so not black and white.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Well.. maybe we should move to texas then...

In BC, parental rights are terminated after 1 year if the child is under 5 and 2 if over 5. Which means, with my mother screwing around and doing her stunts, I lost my daughter a year before the judgement came down to put her into continuing care. Was anyone telling me any of this? Nope. I was also told she wasn't going to be put up for adoption and I'd have a chance to get her back. I don't know how many false reports she filed in that first year because although I have had a chance to go through that file, I find it very emotional and trying.

'scuse me while I laugh maniacly at the "help" I got in trying to get my daughter back.

And not all the Anti-CPS websites are the people who you describe. Many are simply trying to get some sort of justice done or at least their story out there.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Candace30*
I wouldn't be that alarmed/concerned if a parent told me that they would like legal representation when doing an investigation. It happens all the time. If they are really appearing to try and hide their home, their children, etc. and get hostile with me, then that may start to raise some red flags however.

So what would constitute "hostile" to you, out of curiosity? What if a parent said, no, you may not come in or talk to my kids, I will let you in when a search warrant is issued? Would that be hiding their home and children?

Also, there may be no official policy against EBF or co-sleeping, but that wouldn't necessarily stop an ignorant worker from giving a family flak about those choices, kwim? One thing I would add to Mamid's list is that every social worker in every state, province or county should be educated about attachment parenting choices, non vaxing/alternative medicine, and vegan/vegetarian eating, all of which are things families have been harassed about.

I think it would be in the best interests of all parties if the option of anonymous reporting was removed. I don't see why, if callers were required to give their names on making a report, that information couldn't still be confidential from the parents being investigated. I'd tend to think that having to give one's name would discourage at least the most bogus reports, especially if there were penalties for wasting the agency's time/money when the caller can be proven not to be acting in good faith.

Quote:

many people who are on those anti-CPS websites are those who feel like the government can't tell them how they are going to discipline their children, so if they want to lock them in a closet all night for punishment, that should be ok.
How many "anti-CPS" sites have you personally looked at? I don't have any links for you off the top of my head ... Mamid? You got any? ... but I've seen a few with stories of mistreatment (*BY* CPS) and rights violation that almost make me cry. I think these kinds of stories come in a completely different category from some whack job asserting that they own their kids & should be able to beat them or whatever (I've seen those too). I don't think it's doing anybody any favors to lump them all together.

To be honest, I'm not sure this discussion can have much practical outcome, since obviously CPS protocols vary from state to state, and every worker is different. You may be the social worker we all *wish* would show up at our door (if we had to have one show up) and your state's policies may be very civilized, but it doesn't mean much unless all workers are like you & all states have similar policies.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Oh yeah, forgot this ...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
It seems that you have a social worker here on line that is willing to help you understand what is happening and help you in other ways. What a great resources.

I know you didn't mean it this way, Victorian, but you come off as pretty condescending (at least to me). I've seen Mamid talk about what she's gone through before, and I really think she's quite capable of "understanding" what she has been through and is going through. Even if she wasn't, how would a social worker from a different COUNTRY be able to explain anything about her particular case?

You say you don't mean to discount the bad experiences people have had, but that's what I see you doing. You seem to suggest that if Mamid would just listen to the nice social worker here, she would be able to be OK with losing her daughter unfairly. I see her as a woman who's thoroughly entitled to her rage.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

You say you don't mean to discount the bad experiences people have had, but that's what I see you doing. You seem to suggest that if Mamid would just listen to the nice social worker here, she would be able to be OK with losing her daughter unfairly. I see her as a woman who's thoroughly entitled to her rage.
Rage?

Noonononono.. it isn't rage...

Being anally and vaginally assaulted with my clothes torn during a date rape was nothing compared to the emotional trauma I went through trying to keep my daughter. The harm to my psyche and soul can't simply be measured in "rage." I pretty much got over what happened to me on that horrid night, even with the death threats for daring to go to the police. But getting over having a part of my heart ripped from me? I don't think that wound will ever heal.

Because of what happened, stupidhead is sure that I'm not bonded with my son. He kept on asking our "support people" if DS went to me for comfort when he got hurt, scared, etc. Yet even he said in his "official report" that we "were dedicated to our child and never deliberately cause him harm." And then he went on to say that our son was in need of protection(????).

The only things that we haven't done that he demanded we do was parenting courses and be individually interviewed by him or our new stupidhead. Our lawyer is thankfully running interference. I simply don't need the stress. In fact, I'm certain that it is that stress that has caused Bun to go breech and is ruining my chance for a home birth. I should be nesting. Instead, I'm in a panic any time the phone rings or there's a knock on our door, or I see or hear a police siren/car.... How the hell is that supposed to be healthy for a pregnancy where I've done everything I could to stay low risk????

We are 100% positive that if our new stupidhead hears that Bun is currently breech and DS was a GBS baby that any chance of having a home birth, or hell, a birth in the local hospital will go flying out the window. I'm fully expecting stupidhead to show up with police entourage to arrest me, take me to a tertiary care hospital and force me to have a section! Don't say it can't happen. This is Canada. There is no "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" for the parents when a child is "in need of protection." Their own legislation and mandate allows them to freely walk all over the entire charter and the rights supposedly guaranteed therein.

As for links... I make no guarantee that I have gone through every single page on these sites. Some I have though.
Child Protection Reform
American Family Rights Paula Werme - about NH's DCYF Fight CPS
A previous thread on Mothering now in the archives
The people for the people commitee. This one deals with Ontario's CAS. Be warned - the site is littered with poor graphics and a horid piece of music that you can't just turn off! (I also think the person who runs the site is not one but a commitee of people!)

I'll look for more when I've gotten some rest.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

Not meaning to be condescending at all! I really am not a condescending person, it is so hard to come across on line the way you want to. Forgive me if I have offended! Maybe I did not put it the way I meant it....I know that she knows what she went through, what I meant was that the SW on line might be able to help her understand what the SW that she is dealing with is thinking. And she might be able to give her some generic advice. Just because she is in a different country doesn't mean that some information will be useless.

I think that it is terrible that Mamid lost a child. Horrible. I am a mother too, I don't think I could go on if someone took my baby. All I am trying to suggest is that not all SW are evil people that want to steal your baby. There are situations and children out there that need interference. Here in Oregon, most of the things that Mamid listed are in place. My sister said that all the time in the foster parent classes they talk about how to maintain the environment so that the children can assimalate back into their natural families as easily as possible. For example, they talk about taking the child to the church of there choice. Driving them to their school across town, encouraging nursing mothers to pump for the baby in foster care. Never talking bad about birth families. Making a memory box for the child that includes stuff from home (pictures, ect.). Asking the birth parents before cutting hair or piercing ears.

They do not charge the adopting parents a fee for the adoption (just a note about making money on the kids). Here in Oregon the parents have one year to show the judge that they are trying to get the child back by following the "contract" that they have with the judge. They don't automatically stop the process at one year if they parents are trying (for instance, getting off drugs, getting a job and getting housing might take more than one year but if they are in the process they wont sever the rights, but give them more time). On the other hand, the rights of my sisters FS's mother are being severed at 6 months because she left the state, won't call the social workers (at the urging of her mother), won't return letters, and is not fuifililng the contract - which in her case is to finish high school amoung other things). The process to sever the rights takes months here and if she were to show up and start working again, they would put a hold on the process and give her a chance. The parents get their own social worker that is separate from the child's soial worker. They parents get a lawyer free assigned to them that does not have contact with the SW.

I was thinking the other day about a teen client that I worked with a few years ago as a postpartum doula. Her boyfriend would ask her something completly unreasonable. For instance, "I called at 12:34 this afternoon and you didn't answer - where were you?" If he didn't like the answer he would yell and yell at her. Then his parents would tell her to stop making him mad because if she didn't they were report her to CPS for abusing the baby and making him yell in front of the baby. They told her CPS would take the baby and give it to them. She was terrified that they would do this. I spent so much time with her, reassuring her. I hate to think that it could really happen to someone, but not so naive to think that the world is some lala land where nothing bad ever happens. Just a few years ago here in Oregon two girls were murdered by a neighbor and he buried them in his backyard. He was the father of one of their friends from school Came about that had been numerous calls about him sexually molesting them. They were both poor girls from the projects. Do I think that if they were rich girls that something would have been done? I sure do! Do I think that they were not considered top priority because they were poor children of single moms? Yup. I know that the system sucks and needs to be fixed.

If CPS hadent taken my new little nephew, I know he would be dead. Being a SW has to be one of the hardest jobs on the planet, and I respect them for taking on the job. I am truely sorry that some people have run into the ones that aren't so helpful as the ones my sister deal with are.

Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
Oh yeah, forgot this ...
I know you didn't mean it this way, Victorian, but you come off as pretty condescending (at least to me). I've seen Mamid talk about what she's gone through before, and I really think she's quite capable of "understanding" what she has been through and is going through. Even if she wasn't, how would a social worker from a different COUNTRY be able to explain anything about her particular case?

You say you don't mean to discount the bad experiences people have had, but that's what I see you doing. You seem to suggest that if Mamid would just listen to the nice social worker here, she would be able to be OK with losing her daughter unfairly. I see her as a woman who's thoroughly entitled to her rage.


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Sorry, I didn't say it correctly-- people who call in DO have to give their names-- it is held confidential, but they do have to give their names. So it is not anonymous.

I know we cannot come to a neat conclusion after all of this, but the reason I felt the need to respond was because of the lack of another perspective on this thread. I just couldn't let myself NOT say anything when there was so many people saying things that were simply not accurate. People are going to continue being anti-CPS if they feel like we are just this horribly backwards and anti-family type agency-- which we are not. Like Victorian said, we do everything we can to try and keep families together, and we do not remove children just based on what a reporter says. It takes a lot more than that. But, I realize I am not going to change the minds of people who have had horrible experiences with CPS, it was more for those who don't have those experiences but still feel negative towards the agency based on what they were reading or have heard from friends, the media, etc..


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

Oh my. This is really sobering. My heart goes out to you, Mamid, and to the others of you who have been through this. There's nothing inherently wrong with the notion of society seeking to protect children from abusive or neglectful family environments. But when you have a lax, poorly designed system with poor checks and balances staffed by some individuals who are poorly educated and/or judgmental and/or racist/classist/otherwise biased - and just plain power-tripping - what a mess!

I've had an encounter with the equivalent of CPS where I am, and it was very pit-of-my-stomach scary, but at least the SW seemed like a nice, sensible guy, we had advance warning, and he came back later to tell us that he wasn't concerned.

I wonder if some jurisdictions are screwier than others? Although it may help anywhere that I'm white and professional, sadly.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Mamid, geez I don't really now what I want to say. I am just so sorry. I cry every time I read your post about your dd, I know that can't even compare to the gut wrenching pain you have. I'm sorry.









Quote:

Children are all appointed an attorney ad-litem who is NOT part of CPS and works for their behalf.
One of my teachers at a local Tech college was an ad-litem and let me tell you that woman would NOT have my child's best interest at heart. I would hate to see her have an AP'd child appointed to her. Having an ad-litem , especially one like her does nothing to asure me this system does what is best. I know she doesn't repsresent all ad-litems but I'm positive she isn't the only ad-litem that holds such beliefs.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

Sorry, I didn't say it correctly-- people who call in DO have to give their names-- it is held confidential, but they do have to give their names. So it is not anonymous.
But can you, the parent, get that information? Can your lawyer? Nope. The information is blacked out and any identifiers are removed.
If it was any other sort of crime, you can face your accusers in court. You can't when their identities are hidden. "Oh no.. your so and so didn't say that..." But why is the wording exactly what they'd say?









Quote:

I wonder if some jurisdictions are screwier than others?
Some jurisdictions are screwier than others. Some workers are on an agenda to "save the little children" no matter what the cost is to the children, nevermind the family.

There are children that should be taken away but who were ignored while they were growing up when the mandatory reporting laws came into place. I wrote a 5 page essay explaining the shit I went through and handed it into my teacher. It was "a nice piece of fiction" and even though I did go to councelling for a while, instead of reporting it, the councellor decided that it was all in my head and specifically that I was angry that my father wasn't in my life. Or as she put it "abandonned" me. "Mandatory" reporting was few and far between then, nor was that the first time I cried out for help at school. At that point, I had been doing it for over 4 years.

Now, the mandatory reporting laws have swung so far that parents are reported for minor infractions and then their lives are in chaos. But the children that really need to be taken - children of unrepentent drug addicts and abusers (not the poor trying to do their best with what pennies they have) - barely get even a slap on their wrist. Yet those who are doing their best but are simply poor and stressed out or have a medical problem that prevents them from being Stepford parents get the microscopic treatment.

Sure, there are times when CPS should step in. But that doesn't mean go in every time there's a "problem." There is a need for CPS. What parents don't need is to be on a time clock to "fix things" or else they loose any chance to ever see their children again. For some, the change can take a month. For others, it may take years. That doesn't mean that the parents can't take care of the kid eventually. But cutting all ties?

When you talk with a social worker, everything is written down. And heaven forbid that you should any emotion. Yet at the same time, if you don't show any at all can be just as bad if not worse! And the worse emotion to show to a social worker is Anger. After all, that is "innapropriate" and you could be label with anger disorders and be ordered to take "Anger Management" classes. (gee.. isn't that what my needlework is for?)

Now tell me, social workers lookin in this thread, if someone threatened your child's health and safety, wouldn't you be angry? If anger is a natural response, then why is it "innapropriate" to show it?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Thanks for the hugs and comfort ladies. I got screwed and not just by CPS but by my mother and the Metis organization as well. The worst part of it was that when the decision came down, not my lawyer, not my Metis worker or even my social worker bothered to call me into their office to discuss the decision - and they all new weeks ahead of me. I had to wait till it showed up in the mail.

My mother made me out to be a drug user and elder abuser (she's NOT native at all!) but anything that I said about how I grew up the social worker dismissed as simply allegations that had nothing to do with what was going on. She even overdosed when she tried a stunt to pull DD out of foster care and it almost worked. That was the one time CPS, Metis, my lawyer, the foster parents and I all worked together to stop her. Every single other event that happened during those years of hell, I was being pulled at by different directions as to what I was supposed to do to get her back. That was the stunt that started the social worker looking hard at my mother and her "suitability" as a caregiver. Me? I was just holding onto the threads of my life trying to re-weave it back together.

Just an example of the hell I went through: early on, I was in a transition house but didn't have my daughter because I put her in what I thought was "temporary" foster care where if I asked I could get her out. I was stopped at every turn by my worker. So I asked her what I needed to do to get her back. "Get your own place." But, I needed my daughter to get the funding for a big enough place for the two of us. (325$ for rent is barely enough for a converted motel room in the slums of vancouver). So the spiral was that I needed my daughter to get the funding to get a place for us to live in. But without my daughter, I couldn't get the funding to get a place to live!

And even when I did get my own place, all of a sudden new requirements were made. I was already attending parenting courses 2X/week 7hrs/day as well as 5 hrs of councelling with this one councellor. I needed to get a job too, but I also needed councelling at X place at the other end of town that I could only get to by bus because I didn't have a car. And I needed to be available for court, "councelling" by the social worker, councelling by yet another person, psychiatric assesments (that took 5 months!), nevermind being available for visits.... So, between traveling from one end of town to the other, keeping my space spotless etc I was doing a full time job - trying to get my kid back. Well over 40hrs a week were spent jumping through hoops, trying to do what I was required to do in order to even have a chance to get my daughter back. On some days I would be out the door at 8 am and not back till almost midnight and have to do the same the next day in order to do everything I was required to do by my social worker, by the courts, by my lawyer and by the Metis group. No one would hire someone who would be that "undependable" and "unavailable." The only job I could have gotten during that time was waitressing at a strip club!







:

I burnt out. Several times. Every time I did, I had to refind the threads to keep me going. Knowing that at X the next day I was supposed to see my daughter was a thread which would get cut randomly. Visits would get cancelled with no notice. Yet if I dared to cancel one, there would be derogatory notations in my file about them. DD was living in a home with an immune compromised cerebral palsy adoptee as well as other very sick children. The last thing I wanted to be responsible for was making those poor kids sick by transmitting something through my daughter - like bronchitis, etc.

I know the stress had caused my mild case of Irritable Bowel Syndrome to become one where I needed demoral to cope. No one wants to hire an employee that smells like shit. I was demoralized, emotionally destroyed, and more because of what happened.

But the one little thread of victory that I held onto was that the woman who abused me for years did not get custody of my precious child. One tiny thread kept me from going insane - my daughter was safe!

But, CPS messed me up royally. Friends I had when I was in my teens and early 20's wanted nothing to do with me. Friends I have now are few and far between. I can't trust them not to abandon me like the others did when I really needed them.

That's another side effect of CPS involvement. People you thought you could trust and who would be there suddenly aren't anymore. Support systems are destroyed just by the mention of CPS. And I know some workers thrive on being the only "support" parents have.

Ok.. I've ranted enough right now. I need to go knit for a while and lower my BP...


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

I applogize but I'm lost why would CPS ever need to be called for say being an AP parent? I coslept my doctor even helped be choose a cosleeper because I was nervous having a newborn with me. I don't use CIO I fed on demmand, I still breastfeed (21 months) I do vaccinate but did delay and have selected to avoid some a least for now. I've gotton one look of disbelief at me still breastfeeding but other than that its been pretty supportive and I just don't understand how CPS would need to be involved. I applogize if this has already been answered.
Deanna


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Let's see.. women have been accused of having sexual feelings when breastfeeding ala incest because a side effect of it is uterine contractions (read: orgasms).

Breastfeeding after X month is bad because the child should be on three squares and snacks... (but formula is fine????)

Cosleeping is bad - didn't you know that! Children have suffocated in adult beds! (nevermind the 3000 sids deaths in cribs vs the 200 who suffocated while cosleeping..) And don't even think of using beds/cosleepers slid up against the adult bed. Baby could roll and suffocate!

Not vaccinating is bad - how do we know you have your child's best interest if you aren't providing for their medical needs? After all, vaccinations are how we wiped out (insert disease here that really hasn't been wiped out, just renamed).

Homeschooling is bad - children't aren't being properly socialized.

I'd go on, but I've had my fill of dishing out sarcasm.

BTW.. every single one of those has been told to me by a social worker.


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

SO cps has actually been called because I mother chooses to breastfeed her baby?







: Thats insane!

Deanna


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

yes. over 10 years ago I heard about it in the news. The poor woman actually lost her baby for a while. After all, breastfeeding can't be sexual at all. If it is - that's incest and therefore child abuse!


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## Candace30 (Jul 6, 2004)

Scorpioqueen,
I work at CPS, and NO, we do not get involved because someone is an AP parent. As I said before, I and many of my co-workers are AP parents! Extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping and homeschooling are NOT crimes at CPS-- you would never have CPS involvement based on those things. If your child is very underweight and is not gaining weight, and IF your doctor or relative thought you were not dealing with the issue in a healthy way, then they could call CPS and we MAY get involved, but it is doubtful. And if we did get involved (it would have to be a case where a child was significantly underweight and possibly have other health issues), we would try and figure out why the child is underweight and not gaining-- and IF it's a toddler and they are only bf'ing, then we'd probably suggest feeding them a more balanced diet consisting of solids. Would we remove the child based on this? NO WAY-- we would probably close the case right away (if we even got involved-- CPS gets thousands of calls a day, and the ones CPS gets involved in are the more serious cases, those where children are really in unsafe and dangerous situations).

As we said previously, different states and countries do things somewhat differently, but for the most part, here in the US, what I have described about CPS is pretty similar across the states.


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Candace30*
Scorpioqueen,
I work at CPS, and NO, we do not get involved because someone is an AP parent. As I said before, I and many of my co-workers are AP parents! Extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping and homeschooling are NOT crimes at CPS-- you would never have CPS involvement based on those things. If your child is very underweight and is not gaining weight, and IF your doctor or relative thought you were not dealing with the issue in a healthy way, then they could call CPS and we MAY get involved, but it is doubtful. And if we did get involved (it would have to be a case where a child was significantly underweight and possibly have other health issues), we would try and figure out why the child is underweight and not gaining-- and IF it's a toddler and they are only bf'ing, then we'd probably suggest feeding them a more balanced diet consisting of solids. Would we remove the child based on this? NO WAY-- we would probably close the case right away (if we even got involved-- CPS gets thousands of calls a day, and the ones CPS gets involved in are the more serious cases, those where children are really in unsafe and dangerous situations).

As we said previously, different states and countries do things somewhat differently, but for the most part, here in the US, what I have described about CPS is pretty similar across the states.

ITA I'm sure there are some horror stories of CPS but in my experience they are here to help not hurt. I've known lots of HS beastfeeding through the toddler years moms and as far as I know none have been invesgated by CPS. The few cases where they did get involved sounded like they needed to. Kids locked up and food withheld for days at a time, Here in AZ we had a case of a boy who was made to stand outside (In Tucson "shade" ) from 7am to 7pm he was given small breaks for meals, and provided lota of water but still, all this because he failed the 5th grade. Even then CPS just intevened long enough to stop the parents. I would assume that if CPS got a call saying their neighbor was BF there 4 month old, the'd just say okay and?? Now if a mom was BF her Baby in front of a group of drugged out crazies (and she was also under the influence) as part of some sick forplay (men get off on this) them ummm this woman needs some help.
Deanna (Always be a Texan at heart


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

Children are all appointed an attorney ad-litem who is NOT part of CPS and works for their behalf."

Really? because here in my county the lawyer, the drs.therapist are all CPS therapists and who they say who can see. For instance they often say you can't see your own ped you have to see the one they tell you to ...


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

All children in the system are appointed a GAL or a CASA worker who is *supposed* to only have the child's best interests at heart, and they make recommendations to the judge. However, I think there are more bad GAL's than bad CPS workers, IMO. CASA's (court appointed special advocates) are usually better, however, it's a very time consuming volunteer position, so there aren't many- most kids get GAL's instead. Our last foster daughter had a GAL that never met her or observed her with anyone (bio mom, other relatives, or our home).....didn't even know anything about the case, was rude to me when I introduced myself in court, and made a recommendation anyway. Our current foster kids have been in care for over two months and I haven't heard from their GAL, I know that they have never met the kids, me, or the biofamily.

In theory, GAL's and CASA are a great thing, and there are many wonderful ones, but there are a lot of ignorant, bad ones too.........

This is the most frustrating thing to me as a foster parent, because the kids really do NEED someone impartial to figure out what is best for them.

Kristi


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CerridwenLorelei*
Children are all appointed an attorney ad-litem who is NOT part of CPS and works for their behalf."

Really? because here in my county the lawyer, the drs.therapist are all CPS therapists and who they say who can see. For instance they often say you can't see your own ped you have to see the one they tell you to ...

Here, you can take the kids to any dr. that accepts the insurance. If the kids already have a regular ped that accepts the insurance, you are strongly encouraged to go to them, as they know the kids history. '

You can also go to any psychiatrist or therapist that takes the ins. There are some in-home support therapists from the agency that also are available, but you can take the kids to one of your choosing.

Bio-parents still have power to decline or accpet vaxes and such too (at least in our state)- we were told during training that it was a good idea to get permission for vaxes.

Foster parents also need to get permission for things like haircuts and going to church (we aren't religious, but if we were we would need to get permission to take foster children). I actually just had to ask permission to get foster d's haircut. Her mom said yes







I also make sure to ask the biomom about anything that *I* would want to be asked, yk?

Kristi


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

Scorpioqueen, I think that often it may be class and race that make the difference in which women are vulnerable to having their parenting practices put under the microscope - and may shift some workers' perception of the significance and meaning of those practices. I.e. if Mamid, a poor Metis woman, co-sleeps with and doesn't vaccinate her child, that represents her own ignorance, neglect and contempt for the system. If a white female lawyer co-sleeps and doesn't vax, she's made an informed choice based on research and parenting instincts. An over-simplification, sure, but pretty on the mark in too many instances.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

ITA mamastar.

I have to have Documentation Galore in order to justify my decisions to CPS. One of the reasons why I get Mothering Mag. Its just mainstream enough for them to accept yet it doesn't contain the same mainstream "the doctors are always right" crap stuff like (insert any other magazine except for Compleat Mother here).

And I look white too so the native community (first nations, metis etc) don't really accept me. Doesn't help that I'm in the wrong province. I'm a Great Lakes Metis, not a west coast metis and that difference means a lot.

If I was in Ontario, I would be accepted. There are plenty of blond hair blue eyed metis there. FYI - I am neither blond hair or blue eyed. My hair is that native jet black with browns and reds and my eyes are a deep amber brown.

I was also raised "white" by a "we're not native, we're celtic" mother. I was raised to question by my schooling. Do your own research etc. Don't just follow the leader. The problem is, I have that "native" look. Enough so that if people don't know my ancestry, they guess and often label me as "native, but not enough for the reserve." Which just sickens me. Most of the metis community in Canada doesn't live on a reserve because one way or another, they were forced out of them.

But, as soon as my heritage comes into play, the racism comes up. "Stupid halfbreed woman don't know nutin'" <= and I've had that said to me!


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Candace30*
Please, no one is going to take your children away from you b/c you co-sleep or delay vaccinations!!!

Sorry, Candace30.

This statement is a huge lie.

I went to "Family Court" with a friend recently in Monterey Park, CA, and non-vaxing was of a major concern to the judge in the case, even though my friend's daughter had juvenile arthritis and a medical contraindications against further vaccinations and California law clearly provides for a personal philosophical exemption.

My friend's daughter ended up as a ward of the court and put into Children's Hospital for six months for "observation". She was then moved to a foster home for another six months.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

they used to would and could for no vax but Texas just recently made it illegal to call CPS for non vaxing -its a start and at least it will free up some things
Candace lives in Austin I see. One of the most progressive areas in Texas. Most parts of Austin I would be free to be an AP semi Pagan parent...
but Candace you and your co-workers in my area would not be the norm and likely your own coworker would report you
and we have had a family here lose their child due to their religion...


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

if a worker has a bee in their bonnet about anything you are doing to your child that they believe could possibly somehow even remotely harmful, they will take it and run with it - whether there are exemptions or not!

Right now I have a heavy heart. The kid next door got dropped off yesterday by his mother with a beat red/purple left half of his face. She said that he was staying "there" that night and that something had happened. I didn't hear it well enough to know what the reason was. I think his stepfather/mother's boyfriend might have gotten pissed and hit him. But I don't know all the situation. When she left she got out of there like a bat out of hell.

See, the kid has a good father. The mother is at least trying. She got her kid out of danger/stressfull situation. But was he hit or did he run into something or ?

Because he hasn't said anything to me about it, I don't feel confident enough to call - even if I liked CPS here. So I'm just going to watch the situation.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

talked to my lawyer. She told me to watch the situation and if I do find out that his stepfather/mother's boyfriend hit him to call. Other than that, just keep a weather eye out.


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