# Osama bin Laden is dead



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-killed/story?id=13505703

Thoughts? I guess I'm having a hard time with all the news coverage about how happy people are. I know he did terrible things, but... it just feels wrong to celebrate anyone's death, and I can't help but remember how he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer. I just find it all very sad.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

i can't bring myself to celebrate or be happy either. i am not really relieved either b/c i am sure someone/10 someones could have taken the place already. i dunno. i am also a conspiracy theorist so yeah between this and the birth certificate i am


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Yeah, I suspect there might be some sort of death avenging activity going on now. On a humorous note though...

No matter what Obama says, bin Laden's not dead until Donald Trump see's his death certificate. #Deathers (michael moore's twitter)


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Some will never believe it, and this will make them foam at the mouth. Oh well. Their loss, as I think this is good news. As Twain has been quoted a million times over already in the past 8 hours, "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." kind of sums it up.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I respect all of you who aren't, but I have been celebrating since last night. I am ecstatic. I saw this man's face on the news as a child; I saw him again as a teenager, when they upped the ante on the search. I thought he'd never be caught, and he has. This is a momentous occasion, a blow to terrorism, another strike for Obama, nailing him in his first term when Bush couldn't get him in 7 years. (That's 3 points for Obama this weekend: birth certificate, zinging Trump, and Osama!) There may be vengeance activity, but justice has be done and I am proud of our military. A man who orchestrated the deaths of thousands of innocents, including children, is dead, and I see no reason to be sorry for the loss of his life. Today is the first day of a world without Osama bin Laden, and *that is a good thing.* We've been waiting for it for a very long time.

treeoflife - I saw that last night and put it on my FB! haha!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm sure he was the mastermind behind 9/11. That, to me, isn't the issue. I'm just not into celebrating murder, even the murder of horrible people - and it wasn't just him, I believe, it was him and his family members who happened to be there at the time. And maybe the world is a better place with him dead... or maybe now he'll be a martyr and thousands of his followers will be mobilized against the USA.

We had a big part in creating Bin Laden. When I posted the link above last night it described the ways the USA (CIA) recruited, trained, and funded Bin Laden during the 1980s, to help him kill more Russians. Interestingly that part of the article is gone this morning. It's true, though - it's not a conspiracy thing; our government freely acknowledged it.

My Iraqi friend (living in the USA now) is ecstatic - if facebook postings are anything to go on, he is the happiest of anyone I know about this.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't call it murder. What Osama did to thousands of innocents was murder. What Obama did to Osama was justice. Osama was not an innocent.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm pretty sure one doesn't have to be innocent to be murdered. Many murder victims are also criminals - that doesn't mean killing them isn't murder.

Maybe murder was the only way in this situation - I don't know - but Bin Laden wasn't tried in court and sentenced to the death penalty, and he wasn't in the act of hurting anyone when he was killed (i.e., self defense) so murder seems to be the most accurate term.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

When you are killed by your society's elected officials' administration, it is called justice. The other world leaders seem to agree with Obama that a trial was not needed; we were not the only country hunting him "dead or alive." That he wasn't committing murder at the time isn't some notch in his favor, especially since he was reportedly quite ill and thus couldn't have been committing murder. A murderer is still a murderer even when he's not in the act of committing murderer. Society has the right to govern itself, from individual countries to the world acting together.


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-killed/story?id=13505703
> 
> Thoughts? I guess I'm having a hard time with all the news coverage about how happy people are. I know he did terrible things, but... it just feels wrong to celebrate anyone's death, and I can't help but remember how he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer. I just find it all very sad.


I agree with this 100%.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Here's my understanding of what murder is: _The unlawful killing of another human being without valid justification or excuse._

So I think that's what Pres. Obama was addressing when he specifically said Bin Laden was killed under his direction. He was telling the world that this was a lawful, justified killing.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It's not his death I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating that he can't do murder anymore. I would have celebrated if he were imprisoned or punished in some other fitting way as well, anything that prevented him from doing further harm.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, it was a lawful killing. I'm GLAD he's dead. Do I have streamers and confetti around my house? No. But he got what he deserved. The US did not "create" him. You are either evil or you aren't. "They made me do it!" Stopped working in fourth grade.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer.


I don't see that. Or, I don't see that the US supported him specifically. The US government supported efforts to get the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden joined efforts to get the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan, and so probably benefited indirectly from US money and/or arms. But this wasn't like Manuel Noriega who got spy training and psychological warfare training at US military installations.

I completely agree that in its efforts to safeguard its 'interests' the US has stuck its foot in it all over the world numerous times.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Here's my understanding of what murder is: _The unlawful killing of another human being without valid justification or excuse._
> 
> So I think that's what Pres. Obama was addressing when he specifically said Bin Laden was killed under his direction. He was telling the world that this was a lawful, justified killing.


I guess that all comes down to how one defines "valid justification or excuse". Most people who kill someone have what they think is a valid justification. We usually let our courts determine whether or not their reason really is valid.

And he wasn't killed by his society's elected officials. The Pakistani leaders had nothing to do with it. He was killed by the administration of a country where he had most likely masterminded horrible crimes (although our laws do say innocent until proven guilty, and he had no trial), but not by his own society. Imagine how we'd feel if military members of other countries helicoptered in to the USA and killed one of our leaders because he had orchestrated the killing of thousands of civilians. Which one could argue that some of our leaders have done...

And it's never as simple as "We made him do it" vs "Our actions had nothing to do with what he did". The truth is in between, but to ignore the things that our country has done that have lead to the rise of figures like Osama bin Laden is not right. We - the USA, as a nation - are not innocent either.

Like I said, I'm not saying this was a morally wrong thing to do. I don't know what the options were, and I'm willing to accept that sometimes morality and laws must be flexible. I just don't think a knee-jerk "hip-hip-hooray!" response is especially appropriate or wise.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> I just don't think a knee-jerk "hip-hip-hooray!" response is especially appropriate or wise.


Some of the celebrating in the streets has been kind of unseemly, I agree.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> I'm pretty sure one doesn't have to be innocent to be murdered. Many murder victims are also criminals - that doesn't mean killing them isn't murder.
> 
> Maybe murder was the only way in this situation - I don't know - but Bin Laden wasn't tried in court and sentenced to the death penalty, and he wasn't in the act of hurting anyone when he was killed (i.e., self defense) so murder seems to be the most accurate term.


According the Administration he used a woman as a human shield and shot at our people.

He knew he was on our most wanted list, we showed up to capture him and instead of surrendering he chose to fight and died while resisting capture. That isn't murder. Those there working to take him in put their lives at risk and had the right to defend themselves.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
> 
> According the Administration he used a woman as a human shield and shot at our people.
> 
> He knew he was on our most wanted list, we showed up to capture him and instead of surrendering he chose to fight and died while resisting capture. That isn't murder. Those there working to take him in put their lives at risk and had the right to defend themselves.


AMEN.

Dar, Obama is our country's elected official. He ordered our military to make capture of Osama, dead or alive, top priority. He ordered the military action yesterday. He monitored it real time. Obama didn't do the killing, but he ordered the killing...therein, our society's elected official authorized the killing, in retaliation for crimes against our people.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.

Here's one article on the subject:
http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/us-bin-laden-a-license-kill

As it points out, the man who killed Bin Laden could be legally charged with murder under Pakistani law and the USA does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan... not that this is at all likely to happen, but it legally could. The USA has a long history of acting as if rules and laws don't apply to us.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.


What do you base this on? I'll freely admit that I have no idea what happened, as I wasn't there. It seems very possible that it was a deliberate assassination. It also seems very likely that they wanted to capture him alive, and circumstances didn't allow for that. There's really no way for us to know.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

They are saying that capturing him alive was the first goal, but that b/c they were met by gunfire, it obviously didn't work out that way.

eta: and of course he was murdered. He was killed, but not by accident (regardless of whether that was the goal vs. detaining him). But then again, I feel like those on death row are murdered when the day comes - even though they are murderers themselves. If it's purposeful, it's clearly murder. Calling it justice doesn't change the outcome.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.
> 
> ...


Considering that Bin Ladin was hiding right next to a military training facility in a building that was only built within the last 5 years, I really don't give a crap what Pakistan can supposedly do. I have no concern at all that our Gov is going to hand over Navy Seals and CIA agents to Pakistan. It really boggles the mind that anyone would even entertain that the POTUS is going to do that considering they were acting on his orders. There are already serious questions being asked about Pakistans involvement with the hiding of Bin Ladin.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.

He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
> 
> There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.
> 
> He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.


You mean extradition treaty.

Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
> 
> It's not his death I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating that he can't do murder anymore. I would have celebrated if he were imprisoned or punished in some other fitting way as well, anything that prevented him from doing further harm.


Yes. This was the very rare situation, in fact, that I am not sure imprisonment would have actually altered the amount of killing he "supported." Can you imagine the situation where he was being held?

And no, I'm not saying that it makes it *right*, just that it get's it closer to understandable.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I also wanted to add--- the pictures of wild jubulation are more than a bit sick to me. They smack of the same depravity as those from Abu Ghraib. Just because a situation is the best of two evils does not make it suddenly *good*.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> You mean extradition treaty.
> 
> Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.


Yes, that, sorry about that. And lol, I bet they are!!! We were right in their shadow, taking out Osama, and they were unaware!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Of course we would never honor a request for extradition from Pakistan. I did say that up front. And no, I don't think Pakistan would ever make sure a request. The point was that the USA broke international law and Pakistan law.

Some reports say that Bin Laden never fired a shot - some also say that his wife placed herself between the Seals and Bin Laden, rather than him hiding behind her. Whatever, he wasn't killed for cowardice. The Seals generally do have cameras on their helmets so it's interesting that no footage has been released.

I'm not a fan of bin Laden, really. I can accept that killing him might have been necessary, and that the world without him may be a better place. I've thought at times that killing Qaddafi might improve Libya's situation immeasurably. But thinking about them dying doesn't make me feel joyful - it makes me feel sad, that there are people with so much hate in them that the only solution is apparently to kill them. I find that really, really sad. I also think that


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Given that he was found and killed as a result of intelligence, I do not think that we will know for a long time, or ever, what the role of Pakistan was in all this. It cannot be expected that we are being told the full truth and that may be how it has to be at this point.

As for the celebrations, I have already ranted away in the other thread on this topic. While I agree that this is an important turning point in the "war on terrorism", it will be sad if it does not lead to some introspection as a nation. Not a whole lot to celebrate, IMHO. The fact that he was not found and killed as a result of our violent occupation of two countries should give us all some pause.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It's the lives that may be spared by his death that make me joyful.


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## SilverMoon010 (Jul 15, 2009)

How many times have we heard that this country is not safe until Osama is dead (Bush). Now that he is dead, the government is now saying we are still not safe, even less safe, because of his potential cohorts who are now totally pissed off and may seek revenge (Obama). So, basically, we have never been safe and never will be, whether Osama is dead or alive.

I never trust the motives behind politics and find it hard to trust anything they say and do, which is why I am now a total conspiracy theorist.

On that note....







.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SilverMoon010*
> 
> How many times have we heard that this country is not safe until Osama is dead (Bush). Now that he is dead, the government is now saying we are still not safe, even less safe, because of his potential cohorts who are now totally pissed off and may seek revenge (Obama). So, basically, we have never been safe and never will be, whether Osama is dead or alive.
> 
> ...


Right. For Obama's sake just remember who claimed what, and when. Bush is the one who used hyperbolic cowboy rhetoric. As you note yourself, he's the one who said we need to git bin Laden in order to make the Free World safe, not Barack Obama. Other experts have been saying all along that the world will never be completely safe. Others have been saying for a while that killing bin Laden will not make the world entirely safer, because even though he's hugely symbolically important he's only one head on a deadly hydra -cut one off and the others merely step in and take over.

I'm with you, I've grown to not trust politicians, either. I don't trust them, and I question the motives behind everything they say and do. I don't know why, but that hasn't made me a conspiracy theorist.


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## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

According to reports from the Navy Seals, capturing him was never the intent; killing him was. I saw the article yesterday on CNN, but of course I can't find it now.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

We're not safe because of his death.

But we are safe from him, specifically, and that is something to many people who have feared him for so long.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mar123*
> 
> According to reports from the Navy Seals, capturing him was never the intent; killing him was. I saw the article yesterday on CNN, but of course I can't find it now.


The news reports are very clear that they have stated they wanted him alive, but knew it was only a remote possibility. He was shot as he reached for a gun. Should we have allowed him to retrieve the gun, then attempted to disarm him, risking the chance of one of our soldiers dying instead of the murderer?


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## Owen'nZoe (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
> 
> The news reports are very clear that they have stated they wanted him alive, but knew it was only a remote possibility. He was shot as he reached for a gun. Should we have allowed him to retrieve the gun, then attempted to disarm him, risking the chance of one of our soldiers dying instead of the murderer?


 Most of the reports have said what you have, but I too have read some articles that said it was a kill mission from the start. Like Dar, whether that was a good or bad plan, I really am not willing or able to speculate, but personally I am bothered by the celebrations. Not only does it look a bit too much like the celebrations that we were horrified by after 9/11 for my comfort, but as Dar said, it seems unwise to say the least when Al Qaeda is most likely just as able to attack us today as they were the day before bin Ladin died. It's a little like the "Mission Accomplished" declaration that looked so foolish as the years of war dragged on after.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Obama didn't announce that, though; he just announced the truth, that bin Laden's body was in custody.

I see the conflicting news reports and am watching with interest. I would prefer that he had been taken alive, but even if it was a kill mission from the start, I am not sure that I condemn the decision.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

How many times has the official story changed in the past week? And, why do people still believe the tale of his death, when they can't even get the story straight? Would you accept a story like this from someone you know, if they kept changing the facts? No way. In 2nd grade, a girl in my class claimed she had invisible ink. We pressured her every day to bring it to school (I truly believed she had it lol!) She finally admitted she lied. A 2nd grade lesson that stuck with me.......when somebody fabricates a tale ONCE, they will lose credibility with me.

So, why should you believe what the White House and the Media tells you, when they keep changing the story?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I think it's like when a child knows they have done something of questionable morality. At first, they are going to tell you they have done good, but as more information comes to light, they have to admit to more and more wrong doing until the ultimate truth of the situation is revealed. Our soldiers went into a home containing families of women and children in the middle of the night. [We don't know if they knew children or women were there, if the children never came out to play.] They shot everyone they encountered. [This does not mean they did not encounter armed foes; I think it speaks to the training and ability of Team 6 to take down dangerous targets before they can shoot or, if unarmed, reach a nearby gun. They have to be quicker on the draw to be effective.] Then a 12 year-old girl watched as we shot her mother in the leg, then blew a hole in her father's skull. [I don't know if they knew his family was there; I know they were threatened by the wife and the target, and they couldn't taken any chances of injury/failure and believed they were delivering justice to someone who committed mass murder. The articles say they took care to ensure everyone was safe before blowing up the crashed copter.]

There are two specific sides to the story. The truth of what happened was horrific. It's understandable while also regrettable that the government was so loathe to admit it. The question is, was it justified, and was it legal? I don't think it will matter either way to his daughter. Does it demonstrate a keen sense of strategy, to take the chance, or does it demonstrate poor planning and poor judgment, to not verify whether children were there or have a plan for protecting them from being traumatized? If we knew children were there, should we have handled the mission differently or held off entirely? Those are the questions I'm considering. But I am shuddering at the monster we must look like to some people right now.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

I do understand what you are saying, but I still have a problem with the story. I have gone past the point of no return, and am completely disillusioned with the entire government and media system. Is it misinformation or disinformation? One is accidental, the other is deliberate. Since there is a very long history of lies, decades of lies, I really cannot trust anything they say. It's sad.

Would you buy something expensive from an Ebay dealer with a low positive feedback? Probably not, because they are not trustworthy. Well, I don't trust the media OR government, and their feedback rating from this viewer gets about a 3%, lol! They are not trustworthy because they have a history of lying.

With that being said, I still do not know if the Bin Laden story is true. It could very well be true. You are not right or wrong for believing the story. We all take the information that is given, and decide for ourselves what to believe. I am all for personal choice, so I will not flame any of you for your beliefs. I hope the thread continues in a positive manner, and I hope I will not be flamed for my beliefs either.

Thanks!


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
> 
> There are two specific sides to the story. The truth of what happened was horrific. It's understandable while also regrettable that the government was so loathe to admit it. The question is, was it justified, and was it legal? *I don't think it will matter either way to his daughter. Does it demonstrate a keen sense of strategy, to take the chance, or does it demonstrate poor planning and poor judgment, to not verify whether children were there or have a plan for protecting them from being traumatized? If we knew children were there, should we have handled the mission differently or held off entirely?* Those are the questions I'm considering. But I am shuddering at the monster we must look like to some people right now.


I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11.

It's unfortunate that any child has to see their parent killed, but protecting children who could have potentially been in that compound is a luxury that our military did not have, especially considering that bin laden was the type of "person" who would have potentially sacrificed his own children to save himself.

I don't believe everything our government says. I don't believe much of what the media says. But I DO believe that OBL was a monster who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans and would have continued to plan and implement other attacks as long as he lived. That's obviously just my opinion. It would be hard to watch this and believe otherwise afterwards. I'm happy he is dead. I'm not celebrating or dancing in the streets, but I am glad he is dead.

I'd like to think that w/bin laden dead, Al-Qaida might take longer than expected to re-group and attack us again. Or maybe they will just go into overdrive. Who knows?

Each time I drive across the Golden Gate bridge I wonder if this will be the day it is blown up. Each time I get on a plane I wonder if this will be the day of the next attack. Each time I hear a plane in the sky, I wonder if it is just going to the airport or if it is being used as a weapon and will crash into our home. I didn't lose a loved-one on 9/11, and I STILL live with that little voice in the back of my mind wondering when it's going to happen again. THAT'S what bin laden did to us. Someone else may do the same thing in the future, but at least he won't be able to take the satisfaction in personally doing it again. I say good riddance.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamieCole*
> 
> I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11.


You really don't think we should be better than him? Or are we all just aspiring to meet the lowest bar set now?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I think we should be better than him if we can. Otherwise, we're hypocrits. I haven't criticized Obama's decision or the SEALs' decision. I'm only stating what the perceptive of many in the world is towards us right now. If you'd read the thread, I'm the lone person here defending gladness that he's dead. I did a happy dance when Obama announced it. I did.







I'm relieved. I'm just sorry for the manner it was carried out in. I don't know if there was a better way, but I'd like to know all the facts and consider them.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamieCole*
> 
> *I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11*.
> 
> ...


Bin Laden didn't do that to you. *The US Media did.*

The media has done its job. It has scared you into trusting the government just enough to hate who ever they tell you to hate without looking at the actual evidence, or in this case the significant lack thereof. If those tapes were even remotely true, why wouldn't 9/11 be on the ACTUAL list of crimes BinLaden was wanted for? Why wouldn't there be an indictment against him? Think about it? They don't have the evidence for it, so unless you genuinely care about the crimes he actually took credit for openly and didn't deny (which his organization did with almost all of the other attcaks on embassies and other such military targets that they are accused of), then this just goes to show you not the power of his terrorism, but of the terrorism committed through our US media. And why? How does it benefit them? Think about it. If the media has you scared senseless, you don't stray very far, do you? And if you don't stray far you're much more likely to be a captive audience and what's the way they help you ease the anxiety of fear? Apart from pharmaceuticals and food? STUFF! And that is exactly what the government said to do after 9/11...go shopping! Feed the economy! Whose economy though? Yours? No. The economy of the companies that are in bed with western governments and the media and the banks.

No matter who engineered the attacks, the victims that have been attacked in the aftermath are the most tragic of all and they are not the 3000+ lives that were lost. They are the MILLIONS of Americans and, as a result of global media, global citizens exposed to western media who have been terrorized into believing that the government is there to protect them from an axis of evil, and that they should give up basic rights to privacy and candid governmental criticism in order to prove their allegiance. It is the billions and billions of people who have been convinced that more fire power and destruction and SPENDING will bring an end to the terror. The thousands of soldiers and civilians who believe they are giving their lives for peace and democracy (HA!) It is the billions who have been duped into believing that NewsCorp has an interest in giving us any semblance the truth or allow us to "decide" anything for ourselves.

The death of innocent people is something the super powerful and the super wealthy of world have always been willing to overlook in the name of rising profits. It is the financial, emotional, and spiritual paralysis of the people that they benefit so greatly from, and which they have carefully engineered as a result of these attacks. So maybe BinLaden was behind it all (we'll never know), but it sure as hell made some folks mighty rich (and I think we can all agree that person wasn't BinLaden based on what we have seen in the last week) and all that more powerful.

I have a hard time believing there wasn't any guidance, manipulation, direction, or contrivance from the people at the top, that it was all just happy coincidence for them. It's like if my son says the cat broke the cookie jar...but yet he's the one with the cookie crumbs all over his face...but I go and have the CAT put down. No I'm not comparing the deaths of 9/11 with cookies...I'm just trying to point out the stretch it takes for me to understand the stories we are being told.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
> 
> I think we should be better than him if we can. Otherwise, we're hypocrits. I haven't criticized Obama's decision or the SEALs' decision. I'm only stating what the perceptive of many in the world is towards us right now. If you'd read the thread, I'm the lone person here defending gladness that he's dead. I did a happy dance when Obama announced it. I did.
> 
> ...


I think we all would. But the free press (and by free press I mean those entities not owned by or affliliated with one of the top ten media conglommerates and not funded by Big business advertising -- so good luck to you) is hard to come by, and often laughed off as meanignless drivel and conpsiracy theory. But yes...having the facts would be nice. It could be a full time joband lifetime obsession to get them unless your willing to overlook the source.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> ...But this wasn't like Manuel Noriega who got spy training and psychological warfare training at US military installations...


Actually it was just like that...they trained him to be a spy and a warrior, and they gave his people guns and money for war supplies. Then they pulled the rug out when they realized they weren't going to be able to controll the newly free Afghanistan (not that I'm all for the Taliban and what it imposed on women there, but I'm even more against the idea of the US installing puppet governments around the world).

And they rarely step their foot in it for the interests of the NATION or our people, but rather for the interest of their largest contributors: Big Business. Is it any wonder we have been crusaders for capitalism around the world? Do you really think it's because the US government just can't STAND the idea of people being forced to all eat the same bread and wear the same ugly shoes, be forced to study gymnastics when little Ruslan just wanted to be an astronaut, and have no free press? Or do you think it might have something to do with limiting the profit base? There are markets to be had in parts of the world no one ever reads about, Coal, Gas, Diamonds, Copper, Nickel and Colbalt, and other metals that are used to make our cheap electronics (and not so cheap electronics), Plastics and rubber and glass...ever notice any of the mine or plantations needed to make that stuff near you? And no I am not typing this on an organic laptop made from orange peels and nut shells, powered by half solar and half pedalling power, so I am equally to blame for my contribuitions, but we are lying to ourselves if we do not acknowledge why the US government is getting involved in developing nations and obliterating peoples who stand in our way. It has nothing to do with the power of right, democracy or ending genocide and everything to do with raping them for their natural resources (the likes of which we have already depleted in our ouwn countries if we ever had any to begin with) so that their real constituents, (not the people but the big companies) can continue to sell us STUFF, and can continue to make huge profits off cheap labor and abundant resources and we will destroy anyone who gets in our way.

Our version of violence is sheer greed and opression.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?

Interesting.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamieCole*
> 
> So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?
> 
> Interesting.


Over simplified, but in a nutshell? hmmmm, I don't know, but I can say with all certainty that at the very least that is what the events have been manipulated to do to the American people. If there ever was a message of freedom against the imperilaist Americans and Capitalism, or even one of jealousy and rage against the infidels and their slutty women, it has been co-opted by the media and Big Business to benefit their bottom line, not the people's, no doubt about it. In these days of crushing economic crises, some people aren't even feeling a blip. Who are those people? Why aren't they feeling the burn? hmmmmm. How have they seemed to grow even more out of this? How do they always seem to gain out of the losses and tragedies of everyone else?

I find the way it happened so seemlessly to be mightily suspicious at best. There are other facts like the fact that members of the BinLaden family were immediately relocated by the US government just after the attacks, reactions by White House officials and leaks of information to be confusing at best and incriminating at worst.

ETA: Let's not forget that the plane that hit the Pentagon miraculously hit the one wing that was under construction at the time...how...convenient?

If the US didn't organize it themselves those who did had some serious inside intelligence...and used it totally counter intuitively for someone "who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans".


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass. Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch. AND she lives a lot closer to home.

Sorry...just saying...

Continue.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Sadly without more information this is all speculation (as to who planned the attacks).

And... we do not have a free press as it is. There was a gag order on reporting of US deceased soldiers' or war casualties, and the Bush administration made it difficult for the press to criticize him. Even at a congressional dinner it was pointed out how "free" from media criticism Bush seemed to be in, like he was living in a bubble... A bubble that he created by controlling our press. Rumsfield encouraged the military and the media to used certain words and phrases to keep us in support of this war; they were trying to manipulate us to limit dissent. It worked until more people started realizing what was going on. Then his approval ratings went down, down, down...


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

Rebekah, my hat's off to you. You NAILED it!!!

Follow my line of thinking here. OK, prepare yourself....

To those of you who think it is Impossible that 9/11 could have been carried out by members of our own government, this message is for you.

First, you must admit to yourself that it is completely within the realm of possibility. You do not want to believe it could be true (believe me, I know) but it is still Possible.

I'll tell you something that ought to be impossible.....incest. Crimes against innocent children. Abuse (even murder) committed by a parent.

Now, weigh the two: Our government was "in" on 9/11, or parents abusing their own children. What sounds more impossible to you? How can a parent do that to his/her own child? How can our government do that to its own citizens? If it is possible for a person to commit a crime against an innocent child, then why is it so impossible for a group of people in the US government to commit a false flag operation known as 9/11? Evil is evil. You just don't want to believe it can be true.

Remove yourself for just a bit. Pretend this event happened in a 3rd world country. Oh my goodness, it is so easy to believe that a 3rd world foreign government could carry out attacks on its own soil, right? But not the USA, no. We are, better, right?

My theory is that Al Quaeida may have been involved in the attacks, under the supervision of certain members of the US government. I will spend the rest of today scrounging up facts to support my claim. I will try to stay away from loony conspiracy theories, and only submit provable facts, ok?

9/11 is very important to me, and I do want to get to the truth. I do not want my posts removed, so I will try to stick with facts. You can read the facts, and decide for yourself what to believe.

Annnnd, this relates to the original question about Bin Laden, because to rejoice in his death, you must first believe that he was completely responsible for 9/11. He may have been involved, but there is evidence that he was not the sole mastermind.


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## mooshersmama (Jun 21, 2010)

Yessss....very interesting....

Also, 9/11/01 was not an election day. And I'm pretty sure there was no daycare in the towers.

Backing away from this thread slowly now....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamieCole*
> 
> So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?
> 
> Interesting.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

Are you comfortable with challenging your belief system? If not, then read no further.

I am always challenging my beliefs. I want to find the truth, so I am not afraid to test my beliefs. If they do not ring true, then I wish to make a change, and find a better belief. You know, I used to believe in George Bush, and I used to believe in the official 9/11 story. After looking into the story, I don't believe it is true.

Let us start with a little known fact. A small connection, which does not mean much by itself. Yet, if you treat 9/11 as a murder mystery, then you should want to know all facts and connections, in order to get to the truth. If you are so sound in your beliefs about 9/11, then you should not be afraid to read something contradictory.

Marvin Bush, George's brother, was on the board of directors for Stratesec, a company that provided electronic security for the World Trade Center, right up until "the day the buildings fell down."

The entire article can be found here. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

Why is this important? It is a connection, which must be addressed.

Did you know that one of the points to debunk the 9/11 conspiracy is this--that if the towers were wired for explosives, it would have taken months to prepare? That a team of oh, 100 people or so, would have needed to do the job? Um, ok, so why is that reason to believe the towers could not have possibly been wired in the months before 9/11? Because it would take a lot of people, and it would have taken months? These are not impossible to accomplish. Possible vs. Impossible.....remember this. It was completely possible. Maybe impossible to believe, but not impossible to accomplish. (Yes, I saw this on a tv documentary the other night. Yes, I do watch shows that challenge my belief system. I like to hear all sides to the story.)

If you take into consideration the people responsible for the security of the buildings, well, doesn't that give a privately contracted crew ample opportunity to do the job? This is my speculation, but note that in a real murder mystery, this would be taken into consideration. Just because we don't like the way it feels, to think our own country might have done this, does not mean it can not possibly be true. There might only be a 1% chance, but it is still possible.

*More to come. Notice, I gave you all a fact. You can decide what it means. It is ok with me if you don't believe what I believe. This can be a polite discussion, I promise!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mooshersmama*
> 
> Yessss....very interesting....
> 
> ...


Yes, it was and yes there were.

I used to work in Tower 2 and SAW the daycare center in the complex with my own eyes, on the first floor, as my desk mate dropped her kid off each morning.

And yes there were primary elections for local office happening that morning which was why my friend was late to work, and promptly turned his car around as he was getting on the turnpike and watched the first plane crash into his office...no, literally his office!


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> *Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass. Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch. AND she lives a lot closer to home.*
> 
> ...


this is the best thing I have read in this entire thread. Thank you for making me smile today!

OBL is dead, my life is the same Al-Qaeda is probably still the same.

There is something to be said for NOT watching the news...I used to be a news junkie and had the news on all day. One day I just got sick of it. Turned it off and haven't yearned for it since. If I really want some information I go online and read stuff. It's a PITA to have to figure out if what I am reading is reputable or not but it certainly beats watching one of the big 3 spin the same crap day after day.....No I don't care how outraged people are that Michelle Obama wears sleeveless dresses...Yawn.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

All of these little "curiosities" (Bush's brother, for example) on their own mean very little, but balled up together demonstrate many circumstances needed to facilitate a conspiracy were indeed present...basically that it could have happened, but there's simply not enough evidence to do more than speculate. I'd like to see it investigated but even if it were a conspiracy, I imagine they covered their trail well enough not to be found out.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

My next piece: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice!

Yes folks, the 9/11 Truth movement is not only comprised of crazy tin foil hat wearing weirdos, or boys with bullhorns. No sir! There are many many scholars, architects, engineers, pilots, firefighters, police, etc. who want to reopen the investigation. Not all of them believe "Bush did it", but they have found flaws in the official reports of 9/11. If there is a flaw with the official murder mystery of 9/11, wouldn't you like to examine it?

This video is amazing. Also, very boring if you do not care about 9/11. Lol! So, I recommend this video for *anybody* who wants to look deeper into the official 9/11 story. If you are set in your beliefs about 9/11, that's ok. You don't have to watch. It is a long one!

** **

This man, Kevin Ryan, actually read the official NIST WTC report, and the 9/11 Commission Report. Did you read it? I sure didn't!

We all like to listen to intelligent people, right? For example, we like to read scientific findings when we make medical decisions for our families. Well, I like to review the opinions and findings of these independent scholars. You and I might hear the same information, but come to different conclusions. That is perfectly fine.

You really do owe it to yourself to watch this video. Maybe listen to it tonight while preparing dinner. Everything in the official investigation report is reviewed in the video. Mr.Ryan does an outstanding job. I will listen to it throughout the day, and highlight some of the most important points for you.

Ok, since I'm a WAHM, I actually have to get back to work! See you soon.....


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

Moonfirefaery, thank you for peacefully discussing this subject with me. I know we have different opinions, and the fact we can talk about this openly is a good thing!


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....

I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

The info about Bush's brother was news to me. And wasn't there an entire shut-down of the towers that weekend--all cameras off, all locks off, and a ton of workers inside installing cable? And that the terror alert level had just been reduced?

I mean, again, this isn't a smoking gun.....but damn....shouldn't we know about this. Know that these security folks are affiliated with Bush (and backed by Kuwaitis, no?)?

I mean it all just doesn't add up.

Curtains and offices chairs did NOT burn enough to create a molten pit of metal that burned for weeks and weeks. Nor did jet fuel. And also brought down three buildings perfectly? It's just inane. If burning rugs and chairs could do all that, why on earth would the NYFD run up 100 stories? Wouldn't they look at it and say, "This fire is going to fully involve this structure to the point of collapse? Evacuate and control the burn?" Wood responds that way, not metal. It's just unheard of.

I don't know what happened, but there are enough oddities in the stories to make one wonder wtf is going on here. Why isn't this being investigated more? This was a HUGE, huge, huge deal. Wouldn't we want to leave no stone unturned? Make sure this never happened again? Find out *exactly* what did and did not happen? I mean, our national security and intelligence gathering is this laid back?? "Eh, curtains burned it. And those chemicals we found in the melted steel that point to explosives? Eh....nah. We're not going to look into that." LOL. I mean, I don't know what all was in the reports, but the little bit that I'm seeing and the legitimate questions that are being raised by professionals in these fields that are not being addressed just seem really odd to me. For the biggest attack in our lifetimes? Very strange.


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

And yes, there is that too. Mother Nature could make OBL look like a harmless lil bug. Being under an overpass waiting for a stoplight to turn green=longest minute of my day. And I will drive hours out of my way rather than use the Bay Bridge. My husband finds that endearing. Not. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass. Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch. AND she lives a lot closer to home.
> 
> ...


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm with monkey. It just doesn't add up. Something about the official story is not quite right. And maybe they just don't know what happened because of the unprecedented nature of the attack and collapses. But something just rings false, and I don't know how big or small it is. If we know the truth it may be too small to make a difference. And if it's big, wouldn't that rock our society? :/


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....
> 
> I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?


There are mulitple goals for me in these discussions listed in no particular order:

One is discussing in a democratic forum the virutes and values of mainstream media and educating ourselves and others on media awareness, and how concepts of truth can be formed from utter fiction.

Two is bringing to light evidence that undermines the trust we have in Big government, especially governments that serve big busines rather than the common man, as ours does.

Three is engaging in intellectual discussion and exercising my brain.

Four is exapnding my base of knowledge and learning from others to share ideas with my co-workers and students.

Five is shaping the truth of the events in my head. I find it easier to forgive a wrong doing when I am aware of the truth. I find the lies to be the biggest offense here. I want the truth because for me there is no justice without truth. My friends who passed away that day, and my friends who suffer still from trauma and stress and the fear and anxiety that has since ruled their lives, my family and friends who worked ground zero and suffered physically and emotionall as a result...none of that will ever be okay with me so long as the truth is hidden...so if I can find some truth, I might be able to find some peace in my heart.

I am well aware TPTB will never admit their part in this, but if I can prove it myself, maybe I can start to heal a long sealed up emotional wound.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....
> 
> I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?


I've given a lot of thought to your question. I've asked myself the same question many times. What would happen if the media announced today that 9/11 was an inside job, and members of our own government were involved? What would people do?

Probably nothing!! It saddens me to say this, but I don't think the majority of Americans would do anything at all.

So, why is this still important to me? I am driven from deep inside, and I can't really explain why. I just feel like we should all keep pressing for the truth. Maybe so the guilty can be prosecuted?

Also, since 9/11, the government has rolled out a whole new set of laws and policies in response to the terror attacks. If 9/11 is ever proven to be an inside job, could they repeal these laws and policies?

Examples:

Patriot Act (shudder)

Naked Body Scanners, with harmful radiation

Out of control TSA (don't touch my junk, haha!)

Also, could we end the wars, finally? Finding weapons of mass destruction was a lie, and if 9/11 was an inside job, then we can't really blame any country but our own. We would have no business fighting terror in other countries.

So, while most Americans would do nothing, I believe a few good Americans would stand up and try to peacefully change things. This is what I hope to accomplish.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't think we're every going to know the truth about 9/11, because it's almost impossible for private citizens to find all these things out. There are a lot of interesting threads that point in various directions, for sure.

But, this (from hakeber):

If the US didn't organize it themselves those who did had some serious inside intelligence...and used it totally counter intuitively for someone "who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans".

is circular thinking. First, we assume that the number of people killed, the lower than average number of people in the towers (due to the election or whatever - what election was going on, btw?), etc. were part of the plan. Then, we assume that the hijackers must have had amazing inside intelligence in order to make use of such facts to accomplish what they did. There's nothing here that says they must have had serious intelligence and used it counter intuitively. They could just as easily have believed there would be far more people in the towers, etc. than there were, and just picked a bad time for their strike ("bad" from the standpoint of achieving their goals, not from the standpoint of people who would have normally been in the towers, of course).


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

thank you beckybird and storm bride for your answers.

I wasn't trying to be rude with the questions but genuinely curious about the answer.

I do have my doubts about what happened that day, hell I have my doubts about the moon landing. I have just always let it go based on the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing that will probably ever be proven and I myself don't want to dwell on it. I can see though storm bride, where loosing friends and seeing how they suffer could be a huge motivating factor in wanting the absolute truth.

Anyway thank you both for your answers, they have given me a lot to think on..I don't know if it is just a generational thing or what but I haven't held any hope that this government will ever do the right thing. In my eyes I don't see it as functional at all, unless you count serving the needs of some major corporations and the very very few wealthiest among us. I grew up disillusioned with the government and basically just assume they are lying in general...I could go on and on but I think I'll just stop the rambling.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't trust governments, either. I just think that any "proof", one way or another, that may be dug up at such a late date, isn't really proof. If someone leaks documents, etc., how can we possibly know, iln 2011, if they're genuine? (That goes in both directions, btw - whether any "proof" implicates the US government, Osama Bin Laden - or someone/something else completely, for that matter.)


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree that 911 pretty much created a whole new era in civil rights and American policy. It was an entire change of scene. We ended an era of prosperity that day and began on a downward spiral... and it wasn't the American people who benefitted. The people who did benefit have eerie connections to 911...but we'll probably never know anything more than that.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I don't think we're every going to know the truth about 9/11, because it's almost impossible for private citizens to find all these things out. There are a lot of interesting threads that point in various directions, for sure.
> 
> ...


Really...it was just bad luck on the behalf of the hijackers that the WTC was at 30% capacity and that the plane crashed into the wing of the pentagon that was under construction? hmmmm, Maybe. My Grandpa Believed that until the day he died. But then he also thought it was plausible how the guys in the black hats never hit their targets, and the guys in the white hats were able to dodge a sea of bullets. That's pretty unlucky since the US has said time and again all the year and years of planning that went into the attacks...I'm just saying. That's really unlucky. I guess God IS on our side. 

But you're right, the statement was meant to point out the absurdity of the logic being sold to us. That was sort of my whole point.

Obviously, to me, 9/11 was neither a strange coincidence, nor the result of amicable terrorists. But that's what I get out of what we have been shown.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> thank you beckybird and *storm bride* for your answers.
> 
> ...


Did you mean me? I think you did.

Thanks for responding to this...That we stop to think and question the system, rather than merely loathe it silently, trust or mistrust it blindly, but that we ask ourselves always WHY, why do they lie? Why do they exploit? Why do we allow them to over and over? How do they contribute openly and collusively to the oppression of others and myself? How do they perpetuate the oppression of the human spirit in my society and why? How can we diminish their power to do so? That we stop to ask ourselves these questions on a regular, even daily basis, is all that will ever undo the damage that has been done. Even signed confessions and personal letters to each victim from those responsible couldn't trump THAT.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I don't trust governments, either. I just think that any "proof", one way or another, that may be dug up at such a late date, isn't really proof. If someone leaks documents, etc., how can we possibly know, iln 2011, if they're genuine? (That goes in both directions, btw - whether any "proof" implicates the US government, Osama Bin Laden - or someone/something else completely, for that matter.)


Speaking for myself, I don't need proof, or data or documents. I know they have been lying because there is not one piece of so called evidence without a hole and that is all I need to know to begin, and re-begin, and carry on the dialogue that will eventually, if there is a god at all, lead to the demise of the power and a revolution that will bring a pointy reckoning upon the systemic oppression of our collective human spirit and bring forth light and peace. Democratic sharing of ideas and information is the only way to heal the broken system.

As for the moon landing. I have not made up my mind on the matter because I have been so inculcated with the idea of our flag being on the moon it feels foolish to even speculate that it is false, but I can tell you my 18 yo Russian students fell on the floor laughing their butts off at me when I told them I believed in the moon landing...they are shown the disproof of the landings in school and I have to say...they have a lot more evidence pointing to them being fake than I feel comfortable discussing here. As far as the Russians are concerned it was and is to this day a physical impossibility for man to land on the moon.

But let's not derail the thread, I am still on the fence. Suffice to say, what the US citizens take as FACT is laughed at by others around the world as patriotic propaganda. We see ourselves as the bastion of free press and truth and justice, but in reality, we fall flat of those ideals time and again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> But let's not derail the thread, I am still on the fence. Suffice to say, what the US citizens take as FACT is laughed at by others around the world as patriotic propaganda. We see ourselves as the bastion of free press and truth and justice, but in reality, we fall flat of those ideals time and again.


I'm not American, and it continues to astonish me that anybody needs to be told this. Patriotic propaganda is everywhere - we have it in Canada, too, although of a less boisterous, and more quietly smug, kind. However, I don't assume that "others around the world" are always right, either. US bashing is easy - heck, it's practically our national hobby up here - but that doesn't mean it's always accurate, yk?


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I'm not American, and it continues to astonish me that anybody needs to be told this. Patriotic propaganda is everywhere - we have it in Canada, too, although of a less boisterous, and more quietly smug, kind. However, I don't assume that "others around the world" are always right, either. US bashing is easy - heck, it's practically our national hobby up here - but that doesn't mean it's always accurate, yk?


Sorry, Storm. I do know that you are not a US citizen. Didn't mean to lump you in with us. FWIW, I wasn't referring to you in that part of my post...I was addressing the few comments about the moon landing, and it was directed at the thread in general.

Of course others around the world aren't always right, but when you grow up believing something to be a taken for granted FACT and you find out that others around the world think it is a joke and not just some people but a LOT of people, it sort of feels like finding out Santa is a fraud all over again. Many people in Western Nations are raised to believe that the English speaking world is the ultimate authority on truth and justice. It is in large part one of the reasons we have grown so powerful, because we believe it, and we export it gobally through so many many forms of media.

US bashing is just another form of distraction from the real criticisms to be made of the World Bank (most evil corporation ever, IMO) and the media corps and industries that run it. It's a game of Smoke and Mirrors, and anyone who wastes too much energy worrying about the particular politicians or people who front the show are being sucked into the game in exactly the ways they want. Anything they can do to keep us distracted from participating in real issues in any major ways seems to be fair game. One might even argue the entire controversy of a conspiracy has been created by the media in an attempt to distract people from the issues of interest rates and bank loans and debt. It wouldn't be a difficult case to make given their track record.

Anyway, sorry you felt lumped in with us dummy Americans...that's not what I meant at all. 

PS: The elections scheduled for the morning of 9/11 were local primary elections for district reps...mayor...stuff like that. After the crash they were rescheduled for the 25th.


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