# saying "yes, ma'am"



## AnoriensMom (Feb 13, 2005)

I just realized last night that I have not been teaching my DD to say "yes, ma'am" "yes, sir".
I asked her to do something and she replied with her 4 1/2 year old attitude, "oooK". I corrected her and said, "yes, ma'am?" and she said it back - but with tons of attitude. I realized that she never says it, unless I remind her. And my husband does not model that either. Maybe we both got it to much growing up, hard-core cathlic and military.
Is this something I should be reinforcing more? I'm sure this current attitude is just a phase (right?), but I want to instill natural respect. Am I not doing something right now that I should?

Please share your thoughts, suggestions.


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## MichelleAnnette (Aug 20, 2006)

I was not taught to say "yes, ma'am," and will not teach it to my children. Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?" Respect doesn't develop from being forced to say certain words. Respect your child and she will respect you.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm from Texas, grew up here, and knew plenty of kids growing up who had to say "yes, ma'am/sir" and "no, ma'am/sir." It's a cultural thing, I guess, in the south. My parents didn't insist we do that, though. They thought it was more important the attitude we had while saying yes or no than the actual words. So far I haven't insisted my kids say ma'am or sir. I agree with my parents' approach. But we know some people who do.
Respect has a lot more to do with attitude than with the words.


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## YesandNo (Mar 16, 2008)

I know it's regional, but I did not grow up saying "ma'am" and I wouldn't teach it to my kid, either.

But it is important for children to be able to answer politely "yes" or "yes, thank you" instead of the more casual "yeah".


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?"

Funny when you read my other post, #3, because I totally agree with you and said the same thing. Except that I actually *do* say "yes, ma'am" and "no, ma'am" to my girls. Like this:

DD: Mommy?
Me: "Yes, ma'am?"
DD: Can I blah blah blah?
Me: Sure.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

This is actually a dialect thing -- kids who grow up in the South tend to say "yes, sir", "yes, ma'am". I grew up in the North and never ever said "yes, sir" or "yes, ma'am". In fact, I would have been laughed at had I said it.

What do you hear children around you saying? What does your family say? What do YOU want your kids to say?

If you really want your kids to use "ma'am" and "sir" then you need to use it yourself, you need to reinforce it.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I hate being called ma'am, so no way do I teach my child that. I Have, however, taught her to say "my mommy is 29". (I was born in '74)


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## kapatasana (Apr 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
I was not taught to say "yes, ma'am," and will not teach it to my children. Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?" Respect doesn't develop from being forced to say certain words. Respect your child and she will respect you.









:


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Words don't represent respect.

Just because a child uses "yes ma'am" and "yes sir", doesn't mean they are being respectful.

Personally I HATE the whole idea. It puts a bad taste in my mouth.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I wouldn't teach or require that. I dislike the idea, makes the child automatically "inferior." Blech.


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

I really don't care for it either. I do have my kiddos (mostly DS1, he has more of an 'attitude' usually) say "Yes Mama/Mommy" when I'm having trouble with them.

Not sure why that feels better than "Yes ma'am" to me, but it does....maybe feels less subservient or something?


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

I will never teach my son to say "Yes, Ma'am" or "No, Sir" or anything like that. I lived with various family members growing up, and during the times with my maternal grandparents they would demand I add the ma'ams and sir's only when I was in trouble and they were angry with me. I hated it and it just made me angrier with them. It brings back all sorts of horrible memories for me.

With that aside, I have friends from the South who say it automatically and it's not a big deal. But I'm from the North and it just wasn't common there.

I think it's just a personal preference and dialect type of thing.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I was never taught this as a child and don't plan on teaching this to my children either...it just doesn't come naturally for me. Even working in customer service for years, it just didn't seem comfortable. I am sure it's a bit of a regional thing, too.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

I teach and use ma'am and sir with my girls. For me it's like saying please and thank you, it's a part of manners.


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

It's definitely dialect thing. I think if you said that here you'd sound snarky... like "yes _*ma'am*_!"

We're more a yes, please kinda area. I see nothing wrong with teaching your child to say yes politely. We all do it according to our own dialect though.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I don't ask them to say that, but I DO use it in public. I had always thought that I would insist on that, but realized that I don't believe in forcing children to do things like that. To me, it's like CIO, formula, and sleep training. Forcing a child to do someting, or behave one way BECAUSE I SAID SO- crap IMHO.

I do, use Yes ma'm and no ma'm in public and my children will sometimes follow that. Funny thing, is that when I'm REALLY REALLY MAD at them- I will use those when I'm talking to thme. hehehe.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
I teach and use ma'am and sir with my girls. For me it's like saying please and thank you, it's a part of manners.

Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.

Several people have pointed out that it's a regional thing. It doesn't always mean the person who is saying ma'am or sir is inferior or assuming a submissive position. I, myself, use it when speaking to my own children, and I've used it often when I worked in customer service. Never did I feel inferior to my customers. It was a way to be polite. Again, it's regional.

I think you were awfully harsh to the PP you quoted. She said "for her" it's part of good manners.

ETA: I don't insist or even teach my kids to say it, but it is part of something they hear from time to time. Same way I wasn't taught to say it, but growing up in the south, I do use it relatively frequently.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 

I think you were awfully harsh to the PP you quoted. She said "for her" it's part of good manners.


By indicating that she thinks that it's good manners to say it - that means that she thinks it's bad manners not to.

I think the whole practice is disgusting. That's my honest opinion.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

I grew up in the northern US so we weren't raised to say it. I definitely had respect for my parents though...but of course I still back talked on occasion.

When I joined the military it was of course drilled into me and it was automatic for me to say it by the end of the first week of boot camp. Even though it's been 6 yrs I still say it automatically when answering a question or whatever.

I don't make my kids say it to me but I do model it when talking with other people.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
By indicating that she thinks that it's good manners to say it - that means that she thinks it's bad manners not to.

I think the whole practice is disgusting. That's my honest opinion.

Is teaching "please" and "thank you" disgusting? That's also good manners -- widely as accepted good manners.

I find it to be unnecessary, but certainly not disgusting. What's so disgusting about it if the intent isn't to demean the person saying it?

ETA: I really want to understand. I'm not trying to be argumentative.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Is teaching "please" and "thank you" disgusting? That's also good manners -- widely as accepted good manners.

I find it to be unnecessary, but certainly not disgusting. What's so disgusting about it if the intent isn't to demean the person saying it?

ETA: I really want to understand. I'm not trying to be argumentative.

Please and Thank-you are good manners. The difference is that they aren't meant to establish an authoritative relationship where the power structure is rigidly defined.

"Yes Ma'am" and "Yes Sir" are meant to force the child (or subordinate) to assume a position where they are inferior. That's how it's been used historically. Think of who people addressed as Sir and Ma'am. In schools it was used to address teachers. Parents were addressed this way.

I think that respect is earned not 'established'.

The intent of a few people on MDC may not be to demean - but that's how the general public uses it. To "put them in their place" so to speak.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

it's regional. it's not disgusting. it's not abusive. some people say it, some people don't. i am cracking up over this whole "it's a huge plot to make people subordinate"....where's the tinfoil hat when you need it.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
By indicating that she thinks that it's good manners to say it - that means that she thinks it's bad manners not to.

I think the whole practice is disgusting. That's my honest opinion.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Please and Thank-you are good manners. The difference is that they aren't meant to establish an authoritative relationship where the power structure is rigidly defined.

"Yes Ma'am" and "Yes Sir" are meant to force the child (or subordinate) to assume a position where they are inferior. That's how it's been used historically. Think of who people addressed as Sir and Ma'am. In schools it was used to address teachers. Parents were addressed this way.

I think that respect is earned not 'established'.

The intent of a few people on MDC may not be to demean - but that's how the general public uses it. To "put them in their place" so to speak.









What she said.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

Southern here, and yes, we use it and model it. It's just polite society manners. I never felt that I was bowing at the feet of my elders when using it as a child.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Please and Thank-you are good manners.
The difference is that they aren't meant to establish an authoritative
relationship where the power structure is rigidly defined. "Yes Ma'am" and "Yes Sir" are meant to force the child (or subordinate) to assume a position where they are inferior. That's how it's been used historically.

To me authority doesn't necessarily imply superiority. A police officer has authorityin the community where he serves. If he pulls someone over, they'd better comply or else he has authority to enforce consequences like fines or being arrested. But he's not superior to the person he's pulling over.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I think that respect is earned not 'established'.

I totally agree with you on this one!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
The intent of a few people on MDC may not be to demean - but that's how the general public uses it. To "put them in their place" so to speak.

I think you can't really know whether the intent is to demean unless you know the person or overhear how it's used. My DH uses it with his grandparents out of respect for their (earned) position of elders in the family -- not because he has to jump when they say so, or because they are perceived as superior to the rest of us.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
To me authority doesn't necessarily imply superiority. A police officer has authorityin the community where he serves. If he pulls someone over, they'd better comply or else he has authority to enforce consequences like fines or being arrested. But he's not superior to the person he's pulling over.

Why should random adults have any authority over a child?

And yes - police officers have authority - and I listen and obey them. And that's my objection to using Sir and Ma'am. I obey police officers because they are police officers. I used to play soccer with a cop. I certainly didn't do what she told me most of the time. But if she was wearing her uniform and acting as a police officer - then I sure would.

And having children call adults "Sir" and "Ma'am" gives those adults that sort of false authority. It separates them.

I also think that any adult who needs a child to call them Sir or Ma'am to feel 'respected' is really sad.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

I wait tables one night a week, in the Northeast. Around here ma'am and sir aren't used by most people.

Occasionally I'll have small children having dinner with their parents who will consistently call me ma'am. Their parents always beam with pride, but it always makes me cringe. I don't WANT to be ma'am to some other person's kids who I've never met. That puts me in a position of power I'm uncomfortable wielding. Please and thank you are appreciated, but ma'am gives me the willies, probably because as it isn't a common thing around here. I make the assumption that children who address me as ma'am are dealing with a serious authoritative situation at home. I realize this isn't necessarily the case in other parts of the country.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaLaLaLa* 
I wait tables one night a week, in the Northeast. Around here ma'am and sir aren't used by most people.

Occasionally I'll have small children having dinner with their parents who will consistently call me ma'am. Their parents always beam with pride, but it always makes me cringe. I don't WANT to be ma'am to some other person's kids who I've never met. *That puts me in a position of power I'm uncomfortable wielding.* Please and thank you are appreciated, but ma'am gives me the willies, probably because as it isn't a common thing around here. I make the assumption that children who address me as ma'am are dealing with a serious authoritative situation at home. I realize this isn't necessarily the case in other parts of the country.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
it's regional. it's not disgusting. it's not abusive. some people say it, some people don't. i am cracking up over this whole "it's a huge plot to make people subordinate"....where's the tinfoil hat when you need it.

Exactly. Come on, people...

When my younger cousins from down south say, "Yes, Ma'am," in their little southern accents I think it's down right adorable.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wouldn't teach or require that. I dislike the idea, makes the child automatically "inferior." Blech.

Same here.

I cringe when I hear someone say it.


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## lilsparrow (Apr 19, 2006)

I am new to this forum, so please be patient with me as I try to understand some new perspectives.









To me, "authority", being used the context of jurisdiction, I feel, my dh and I *do* have over our children. Thus, the right to make decisions concerning their welfare. We settle disputes, and though we listen carefully and take into consideration our children's perspectives. Important decisions belong, by right of position (don't hit me), to the PARENTS. That said, I believe very strongly in providing them the freedom that invites interior consent, and strive for an optimal emotional environment for them. Keyword, being strive.









For example, I let them decide if they want to go to school, or be homeschooled (then advocate on their behalf to dh). It is their education and I feel they should be the ones to decide, and *if I can* I will accomodate them. But if life circumstances, determined that I would need to return to work fulltime, I might have needed to trump their desires. And they would have been trumped, by way of my authority.

I don't think authority is the same as CONTROL. And I don't think influence is wrong on it's own. I think, like anything it can be abused.

More on topic. I grew up in the South, always said maam and sir, although I never did with my mom and dad.







Then I moved North, and stopped, I did get laughed at.







When we moved to MD, (kind of in between North and South) some people said it and some people didn't.







Well, I found myself slipping back into it.

I LOVE saying maam and sir. I'm getting unhappy as I get older because I have less people I can say maam and sir to. I can still say it to the children though. I love to call them "little missies too, and little sirs."







and if they ask me for something, I yes maam and yes sir them all the time. But I am weird. This is nothing.









I don't insist my children call me maam or sir. My daughter does it, when I am giving her directions. It's kind of like her way of saying, "check!"

I do understand what you mean by authoritarian in a bad way, though. My FIL used to do it to my dh and he tried it on our firstborn. He would smack his hand on the table like a military sargeant and say sternly, "say YES SIR!" I put a stop to that quick! For the same reasons already described. And me, thinking of maam and sir as a term of endearment, could not understand why someone would misuse it in such a way.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't know if it's a north/south thing or not. My parents are from the north and I was raised in the south. So can't help you with that one! I was taught it's part of proper manners and will teach them to my children. I think it's very rude and disgusting "NOT" to say thank you and please and show resepct towards others! As we see everyday in our country! No one opens doors and such and shows respect towards others anymore. I still will call people older than me Mr or Mrs so-and-so until they tell me to call them something else or I ask them how should I address them! I don't feel belittled one bit! It was just how I was raised and something that I "DO" want to pass along to my children, both boys and girls!

I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but no reason to get nasty and put me down just because I see something "different" than you! I don't see it as "power" but "respect"!!!!!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

My kids all use "yes, ma'am," etc now that my oldest takes tae kwon do. I love it. Not just when they say it to me, but the attitude that comes with it. It's totally worth the $50 a month for the tae kwon do school (not to mention the other reasons we do it).


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
I think it's very rude and disgusting "NOT" to say thank you and please and show resepct towards others! As we see everyday in our country! No one opens doors and such and shows respect towards others anymore.









:

When my 75 year old father told a 20 year old waitress, "Thank you, ma'am," or answered the teller at a bank with, "Yes, sir," I HIGHLY doubt it was because he felt _inferior_. It is not submitting to their power, it's showing them a common respect and courtesy.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I totally agree with what Kessed said.








Being a Norwegian, this is a concept I am having a REALLY hard time grasping. How it can be anything but degrading to teach a child to say Sir and Ma`am to it`s own parents is beyond me.


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## lmbjer (Sep 7, 2006)

We also use ma'am and sir to older strangers. I find it respectful, not submissive. This thread definitely was way over thinking the issue for me personally.

I was born and raised in the north, and still live in the north, and here it is not commonly used around adults we are friends with or acquaintances. However, it is used among strangers. I picked it up working in retail. When you have to communicate with a stranger it is a polite way to do so. What drove me nuts is when our younger workers would holler down a customer with HEY.

My DH though lived in the south for a while and sir and ma'am was a mainstay.
This is definitely, at least in part, a dialect quirk.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Why should random adults have any authority over a child?

And yes - police officers have authority - and I listen and obey them. And that's my objection to using Sir and Ma'am. I obey police officers because they are police officers. I used to play soccer with a cop. I certainly didn't do what she told me most of the time. But if she was wearing her uniform and acting as a police officer - then I sure would.

And having children call adults "Sir" and "Ma'am" gives those adults that sort of false authority. It separates them.

I also think that any adult who needs a child to call them Sir or Ma'am to feel 'respected' is really sad.

I think you are attributing meaning to "sir" and "ma'am" that just isn't there. To most people it's just part of common courtesy and a regional thing. You're reading way too much into it. We can agree to disagree though.


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## i*wish (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
it's regional. it's not disgusting. it's not abusive. some people say it, some people don't. i am cracking up over this whole "it's a huge plot to make people subordinate"....where's the tinfoil hat when you need it.

I tend to agree with this. I grew up in the northeast and this is just not the way things go down here...We're lucky if someone waves thank you when you let them make their left turn first. Anyhow, I found myself on a playground in Albequerque NM last year and was chatting with this nice mama pushing her 'baby' on the swing (he must've been about 2 but was in the baby swing still). There was a break in our converstion when she started asking the child something and he answered 'yes' and she replied 'yes, what?' rather sternly. I was confused..... The baby just stared and she said 'yes, M'AM'. My jaw nearly hit the ground..... it was SUCH a foreign concept to me to *think* of teaching any child, let alone a BABY, to use this type of language. I laughed all the way home.... It totally felt weird and controlling the way she did it but it was *her* and not necessarily the practice that gave that impression....

I'm working on having my brother's wife lay of the 'please' and 'thank you' forcing with my 2.5 year old. She's way ambitious with trying to teach this (she's also WAY more polite than I am or could even consider being...like thank you notes for family dinners after 7years of marriage...come on!!) So I try to tell her that right now we're working at keeping our hands to ourself on the playground and not grabbing toys from 18month old babies....we'll get to 'please' and 'thank you'......eventually.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

I'm very curious what those who think it's disgusting think about other cultures where those kind of forms are indicated in every word, right down to the verb forms? In Korean, for instance, a child says different words to their parents to say "good night", the parents say something else entirely. Almost everyone is referred to by title. (Older brother, younger sister, teacher). Japanese is the same. (I'm sure there are others, but I know these two specifically)

It's done very respectfully to everyone. I really think these things are cultural, and that while they can be used to make a child feel "subserivient", they are usually just a way to be polite. That said, we don't used "Ma'am" or "sir" where I am, and to me, they sound funny.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This is one of those regional things that sounds foreign to my ear and I don't like it for that reason, but it's just a regional thing.

Honestly, I don't think you need to teach it. If it's the way things happen where you are, your children will pick it up because it's what is done around them. You can model it if it's important to you but I think this kind of thing is like picking up a regional accent. No one had to make me sound like I'm from the upper Midwest. I sound like that simply because that's how people sound here (where I grew up). The same with local speech patterns, such as the use of Ma'am and Sir. If that's how people talk to adults around you, eventually the kids will most likely pick it up because everyone else will be doing it and it will feel normal to them. If they don't just pick it up, they'll face the natural consequence of upsetting adults who expect to be called Ma'am and Sir, and they'll probably learn that way.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I also find the idea kind of gross, probably because the power dynamic it implies seems so contrary to the very idea of gentle discipline.

As others have said, I think there are plenty of (more genuine) ways to teach your child about respect that don't involve enforcing that she say certain words.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I've never been in the South, so I don't know, but maybe someone can tell me... on the subject of comparing it to please and thank you, and it being a part of good manners and not an authority/submission thing... does everyone say it to everyone else? If you were a supervisor, would you say "yes ma'am" and "sir" to employees that you supervised? If a policeman pulls a man over, do they both call each other sir? Do you say it to your kids, as consistently as you expect them to say it to you? If so, then I can see it as a regional variation of good manners. If not, then it's a very subtle sign of authority/submission. If you expect someone to extend a courtesy to you that you don't expect to extend to them, then you're not really equals.


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## ians_mommy (Apr 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
I was taught it's part of proper manners and will teach them to my children. I think it's very rude and disgusting "NOT" to say thank you and please and show resepct towards others! As we see everyday in our country! No one opens doors and such and shows respect towards others anymore. I still will call people older than me Mr or Mrs so-and-so until they tell me to call them something else or I ask them how should I address them! I don't feel belittled one bit! It was just how I was raised and something that I "DO" want to pass along to my children, both boys and girls!

I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but no reason to get nasty and put me down just because I see something "different" than you! I don't see it as "power" but "respect"!!!!!

ITA

I think it is generally polite behavior and expresses my respect for other people as individuals...not as superiors.
I am in the military (and am also a midwife). My rank and uniform are frequently intimidating to my younger clients. I refer to all of them as "Mrs so and so" and respond with "yes ma'am". I feel it is respectful and places us on even playing fields. I believe my clients appreciate it. When my clients have their other children with them and the LO asks me a question, I always respons with "yes ma'am" or "yes sir"...again, I think it offers respect to them as a human.
I also use "ma'am" and "sir" in my day to day speak when I do not know the name of another person, as in "excuse me sir, do you have the time?" or "yes ma'am, the Pharmacy is down the hall and to the right".
I will teach my children the same by modeling the behavior, not by intimidation (like a PP example of her FIL). I believe by modeling the behavior I remove any sense that it is a "superiority" issue and instill that it is a pattern of good manners and general respect.

I was raised in the North BTW.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I don't tell my kids to say that...but I grew up in Iowa.

When my uncle came up from AK with his girlfriend she kept calling my grandma 'Ma'am' every time my grandma said something it was 'Yes, ma'am' or 'No, ma'am' *shrug* it was just weird to me.

I do prompt James to say please and thank-you when appropriate but he came up with that mostly on his own because DH and I model it.

If it's normal where you live, go for it...it'd be seen as weird here in Iowa.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I am surprised that some are so convinced that this is categorically an issue of submission/inferiority. I don't think so at all. Like anything, is can be used that way, but so can "thank you" and "can I get up from the table?"

I use sir and ma'am in my speech daily. The most common situation in which I use them is in a passing exchange (thank you, ma'am; excuse me, sir) with someone whose name I don't know (like a cashier or salesperson.) I think it's a nice way to address a stranger, since I don't know how to call him by name. I don't restrict it to people older than myself at all. And I have been called ma'am by a number of police officers, including more than one in the course of writing me a ticket.

My DD has just started to experiment with it. I have never taught or even mentioned using it to her, she has just heard me and is now trying it out for herself. Interestingly (to me), she is also experimenting with 'Mrs." So-and-so which is something she does not hear. I do not introduce adults to her that way and everyone in our lives including her teachers are on a first name basis, to the point that I wonder where's she's even heard it. She's been saying "Mrs. Mama" and "Mrs. Teacher", for fun really. FWIW, I have never heard my mother say either ma'am or sir, I came to find my comfort with them and what I am communicating with them for myself, and DD will do the same for herself.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
I was not taught to say "yes, ma'am," and will not teach it to my children. Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?" Respect doesn't develop from being forced to say certain words. Respect your child and she will respect you.

Ita.

I wouldn't like "yes, ma'am/sir" being insisted upon. It seems like it would go into that superiority area if one *insisted* that their dc refer to them (or others) that way. But if it's modelled and dc pick up on it as the proper way to address people? It seems fine. Especially if it's a two way street- adults address kids that way, etc.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies...I wasn't taught to say ma'am or sir. My parents aren't from here, so it's not part of our heritage. However, we live in the south, so we do hear it quite a bit. We don't 'force' please and thank you, and we wouldn't 'force' ma'am or sir. I use it sometimes, just because it sounds nice to me. Like when I call customer service or when I am at the store, I will use it with people I don't know well. It never makes me feel inferior, or whatever. I do not expect dd to use it or 'teach' it to dd. If she hears me say it, and says it, fine. If not, fine. I don't really care. To me, her general attitude and manner of asking is WAY more important than the words she says. A polite "I'd like some more juice" can be way nicer sounding than a rude "Ma'am, give me some juice puh-lease". Or a genuine "Oh, wow!!!" and running off to play with a new toy speaks volumes over a mumbled "thanks" and a rolling of the eyes. They are just words. Same with saying sorry. I would never teach dd to just say sorry, it doesn't mean a thing! Her attitude and willingness to help a person she has harmed is much more important than the word she says to them. Hope I made sense...I'm sick and tired (literally!)


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

I also teach sign language to my girls and please, thank you, your welcome, no thank you were some of the first signs I taught my girls! Not sure what gentle discipline has to do with teaching manners though.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

It's not something we care for, and we didn't teach or require our kids to address us that way.


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## damona (Mar 27, 2008)

wow, this is not something i ever put any thought into, b/c it's just automatic to me. if it is a stranger, regardless of age, i use ma'am or sir, as in, "excuse me ma'am, but your child dropped their toy". it's far more polite than saying, "hey, lady, your kid..." of course, i still have a hard time calling older adults by their first names. my kids' teachers are "mrs. so-and-so" regardless of if they are older or younger than i am. it's just how i was brought up, and the way i see it, there's enough rudeness in the world, a little politeness isn't going to hurt anyone. i do not insist that my kids use ma'am and sir when speaking to me or their dad or grandparents, but they sometimes do anyway. (my oldest is a wisea$$ and will say "yes ma'am" and salute, sometimes!)

btw: i am from the upper midwest, as are my parents. my step-dad is a "mountain boy" (as he says) from tennessee. he is 72 and he calls everyone ma'am or sir, right down to the 17yo waitress at the diner!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

If a policeman pulls a man over, do they both call each other sir?
I don't know about when men are pulled over, but I have had policemen call me ma'am.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
I teach and use ma'am and sir with my girls. For me it's like saying please and thank you, it's a part of manners.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Is teaching "please" and "thank you" disgusting? That's also good manners -- widely as accepted good manners.

Well, we aren't "teaching" our daughter to say please and thank-you. We don't require her to say please before she gets something, and we don't remind her to say thank-you when she does. We have just modeled this in our own speech, and so far, at 27 months of age, she says please and thank-you about 90% of time. We always get compliments on her "manners".









The problem I have with _enforcing_ ma'am, sir, please, thank-you, etc, is that you're essentially requiring your children to express something that may not be genuine. Politeness, respect, gratitude, etc, can't be produced simply because someone tells you to say the word. You're either grateful or you're not. You either respect someone, or you don't. Where I fall on the spectrum is that I think it's appropriate to model the correct times to use those words, the context in which they are appropriate, and then leave it up to her as to whether or not she, herself, *feels* that they are relevant enough to use. I'm amazed that at 2 years old she almost always says "thank-you mommy" when I get her a snack.

As far as the "basic manners" argument goes, I personally feel that "yes please" is just as polite as "yes ma'am", therefore we don't model the words ma'am and sir.

Disgusting is a strong word to use to describe this practice, but I am generally uneasy about telling children to say things that they may not feel or believe. I feel the same way about apologies. However, just the other day my daughter surprised me and said "I'm sorry" when she accidentaly stepped on my foot (which made me yelp due to my chronic pain). She really was sorry she inflicted pain on me, yet I've *never* ever told her to "say sorry".


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

As a yankee in the south, I will tell you that everyone is "ma'am"ing and "sir"ing each other all over the place here. It is just a very common way to address each other here. Oh, and, "miss."

I got "ma'am"ed yesterday by a dude who is my husband's buddy. He's 5 years older than me.

It's just part of the basic language down here. I do think most people expect to hear and use it in just about all but the most intimate and casual relationships.

We're kind of picking it up when we address older folks. And I've told my kids that it's a perfectly appropriate way to address someone. But, yeah, we're not requiring it or using it in our household. But I do imagine they'll pick it up just by proximity.


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## lilsparrow (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I don't know about when men are pulled over, but I have had policemen call me ma'am.

Me too.


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## want2bmoms (Feb 8, 2008)

tropicaldutchtulip said:


> I don't know if it's a north/south thing or not. My parents are from the north and I was raised in the south. So can't help you with that one! I was taught it's part of proper manners and will teach them to my children. I think it's very rude and disgusting "NOT" to say thank you and please and show resepct towards others! As we see everyday in our country! No one opens doors and such and shows respect towards others anymore. I still will call people older than me Mr or Mrs so-and-so until they tell me to call them something else or I ask them how should I address them! I don't feel belittled one bit! It was just how I was raised and something that I "DO" want to pass along to my children, both boys and girls!
> 
> *I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but no reason to get nasty and put me down just because I see something "different" than you! I don't see it as "power" but "respect"!!!!![/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## anniedare (May 31, 2005)

I think this thread shows that the terms are not totally meaningless and just part of politeness for some while foreign for others. They are, actually, REALLY imbued with power. And it doesn't seem like we can use them without referencing that power. Whether or not we believe in it.

So I'm going to make a concerted effort to stop using those terms while my kids are with me. It's hurting people, so we'll come up with a better way of being polite that doesn't offend.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

We are in Alabama and it's just a part of the culture here. I have never "taught" my son to say it, but I'm sure I've modeled it and he does say "Yes, sir" and "Yes, Ma'am"









It's really not a big deal and as a PP mentioned, these terms are NOT reserved for people older than you.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

want2bmoms said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip*
> ...


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yes, it does seem to often be simply a "courtesy" here in the South.

And it also seems to be considered discourteous to NOT use it sometimes.

In the same way you might use, "Hey, could you hand me that?" in a perfectly polite, upbeat tone with a family member, or murmur, "Mmm hmmm..." But, in a more "formal" or less relaxed setting you would use, "Would you please..." or "You're welcome."

To NOT use, "Ma'am" and "Sir" and "Miss" here in some public situations/exchanges would imply a level of familiarity/impoliteness that would not be appropriate.

Like if you were at the grocery and you said, "Thank you," to the cashier. And the cashier responded with a, "Mmm hmmm." That might not be all out rude, but you would probably have expected to hear a more formal, "You're welcome."

It seems like "Ma'am/Sir/Miss" fall into that category down here.

Someone asks you a question and you just say, "Sure!" That might be perceived as a bit "familiar" and less proper than, "Yes, ma'am."

Does that make sense?

And I definitely think there's *plenty* of other power stuff at play. And sometimes "Ma'am/sir/miss" falls into that category for sure. But by and large it just seems to be part of the vernacular.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

When my DH has a call transfered to him work he says " Officer (insert last name) how may I help you sir or ma'am". He says it equally to men and women that he is working/dealing with. He feels that it is the professional way to address other people.

My kids and I are likely to address someone by sir or ma'am if we do not know their name. It just sounds better then "Hey you, Hey mister, Hey Lady or something of the like" Saying "excuse me ma'am or Sir you forgot something" seems to sound better to my ears. My kids occasionally address me this way but it is more for fun. I don't think that they have ever called my husband sir.

My Neighbors are from Alabama and they say sir and ma'am very often, but it just seems to be part of their speech.

I say to each their own.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

It's definitely a cultural thing. I never heard it growing up in Michigan, but when I moved to TN and FL... I heard it all the time. After a few years, I started saying "Yes Ma'am" to clerks and such. It was just natural.

I don't teach it to my kids. DH wants them to answer "Yes Mommy" or "Yes Baba (Arabic for Daddy)" when we call them... rather than "Whaaat???"... but that's about it. I'm OK, with a Yes or a What or whatever. It's not an issue for me because our kids are pretty polite as it is.


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

I grew up in the NE not hearing it, and we're moving to Colorado where I'm pretty sure they don't say it. But I don't have a problem hearing it, and I don't think it's outlandish or anything. I think it's adorable when DH says it (he's ex-military and it's a habit I guess). I would love for my kids to say it when they're older, but I don't think I would force the issue... They're pretty young though so who knows at this point.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Good grief, the things people decide to get all het up about.

We say it here. I grew up saying it, and my parents said it to people older than them or anyone they didn't know (like at the bank, or post office or to the person who cleans your hotel room or that random voice on the speaker at a fast food place - you'd say yes ma'am, yes sir. It's just like, ok, I don't know your name, so this will do). The men in my life always said yes ma'am to women they didn't know or older ladies. My kid says it sometimes, most kids I know are saying it pretty consistantly by kindergarten. I don't demand it, but I do remind her and I say it a lot so that's where she's picking it up. She'll certainly be expected to say it to other kid's parents and in school and such. Nothing wrong with being polite.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It's definately regional. I was never taught to say it, but my cousins all do. Even as adults, they still say it.

My cousin is a police officer in a small town, and I rode with him one day, and even as he was arresting people he said "maam" and "sir" and they said it to him too.

I thought it sounded odd, but it's how they all do it there, so if I lived there, I'm sure my family would say maam and sir too.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
it's regional. it's not disgusting. it's not abusive. some people say it, some people don't. i am cracking up over this whole "it's a huge plot to make people subordinate"....where's the tinfoil hat when you need it.

LMAO! I also can't understand all the hoopla over something that is completely normal in much of our country.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.

I think that is unnecessarily RUDE!







Yes Ma'am I sure do!

There is nothing disgusting about teaching children to respond politely when asked a question (and yes I am Southern). And YES I do answer ANYONE who calls my name with Yes Ma'am or Yes Sir. I was not explicitly taught that, it is just part of speech here and I think it is VERY important. We hear it from EVERYONE growing up and learn it that way. My parents didn't INSIST on it, they didn't have to. There is NOTHING demeaning about giving respect to another person. I can't stand to get "yeah" or "whatever" from a child, THAT is rude.

I do not see how teaching politeness makes them inferior. If the toddlers I keep call my name I respond with Yes Ma'am or Yes sir. When I tell them "no" it's "no ma'am" or "no sir"

Showing respect and expecting it in return teaches politeness and self esteem. Children are worthy of respect and there is no reason that they cannot also SHOW respect.


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## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

we occaisionally remind the kids to say ma'am and sir but we model more often than we elicit repetition

i say it at work all the time but only to customers never to my bosses. i don't say it to my parents or grandparents either. for anyone who i am not on a first name basis with i use it though.

i have cousins who are intercontinental though (yankee mother, southern fathern) and i remember it was a big deal that their kids didn't say yes ma'am at school. i don't think it took them too long to pick it up once they got in school and heard the other kids doing it but i do remmeber the grown folks talikning about it at the time.........


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

i'm southern, and wasn't raised to say it, much to the chagrin of my relatives. i am also not teaching my kids to say it. it bothers me for the same reasons it bothers everyone else that doesnt use it. my dh uses it and i HATE it. i pick on him for doing it. to me it definitely it implies a subservience.

off topic a little, does anyone here that doesn't teach "sir" and "ma'am" tack on "miss" or "mr" to other adults names? just curious what the feelings are on that.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Erin** 
off topic a little, does anyone here that doesn't teach "sir" and "ma'am" tack on "miss" or "mr" to other adults names? just curious what the feelings are on that.

I do that as well and will call my friend Phyllis "Miss Phyllis" to the girls fro example. I use that more for people that we know, and the ma'am and sir for the general population.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I live in the north east I never "yes ma'am" or "no sir." I do occassionally use "ma'am" or "sir" though with total strangers who's names I don't know to say things like "Excuse me Ma'am/Sir, but is that your umbrella that you left behind?"

"Ma'am" is a contraction of the french word "Madam." It implies that the person being adressed is married, I therefore find it a very silly thing to use with strangers who look under 25 or aren't wearing wedding rings. I use "*Miss*" with any lady who looks under 40 or 50, around here women tend to prefer that since "ma'am" feel like you are implying that they are old enough to assume they are married.

I frequently use titles when I speak and add extra ones here and there for DS to use. I always use ones like _Father_ Richard; _Dr_ Sh*****; _Mr_ R***; _Mayor_ Bloomberg; etc. We have taken to calling my friend and old business partner _Uncle_ Eric for DS. DS adresses many of his stuffed animals as "Mr." None of these have ever been taught or required of DS, he just uses them as I just use them.

I never _teach_ or _require_ anything that falls under the heading of manners from DS. However, at 2 yo he says "thankyou," "excuse me," and "sorry." He simply picked these things up from myself and others saying them to him or eachother.

I would much rather my DS *feel* grateful than say an obligatory "thankyou." I would prefer he _feel_ remorse than use "sorry" as a get out of jail free card. I want him to think of other peoples _feeling_ and not say "excuse me" as he steps on their toes. *I want him to understand and respect my requests and comply with them b/c he knows that they are given out of love, and not to politely and obidiently just say "yes ma'am" b/c I told him to.*


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## anniedare (May 31, 2005)

I don't think we'll replace sir and ma'am with anything around here. I rarely need to use people's names in general life anyway. "Excuse me? Could I have a popsicle?" works. I think it's impolite to teach kids to use terms that offend some people once I know they do so. I'll teach them to tread lightly with power, but of course some people think it's no big deal if they don't *intend* to offend. In our family, our morality is that the outcome is important as well as our intentions and hurting people is something we should learn from, no matter how innocent we believe we are or how crazy/sensitive we deem those who disagree.

Shrug.

Just different value systems abut what's right/wrong/important/frivolous I suppose.

I think Ms. and Mr. are also potentially problematic given the queer crowd in which we run. First or last names when they need to yell, "Hey! Mr. Jones! Watch out!", maybe, and a good old, "excuse me" otherwise. Usually the person will let you know by language or look if they prefer to be addressed in another way. But interpreting that sort of thing socially is definitely a lesson for older kids.

I'm guessing this will be easier for us because we don't have grown-up friends who would wish to be called anything different than the rest of the kids friends.

Good luck to those with family or neighborhood adults who do. It would be hard for me to explain to my kids why we call Bob "Mr. Jones" and his son is just "Chuck."


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

To the general population:

If you don't wish to teach your children to say those things, fine. Don't do it. However, don't disparage those of us who strongly believe that it is a sign of respect and good manners and we won't disparage you for not sharing those beliefs. Thank you. That is all.


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
"Ma'am" is a contraction of the french word "Madam." It implies that the person being adressed is married, I therefore find it a very silly thing to use with strangers who look under 25 or aren't wearing wedding rings. I use "*Miss*" with any lady who looks under 40 or 50, around here women tend to prefer that since "ma'am" feel like you are implying that they are old enough to assume they are married.

That's funny - I get offended (a little) if I'm called Miss. I look young, and I think the addresser is treating me like a kid. I'm a little touchy I guess.


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## althara (Jan 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
"Ma'am" is a contraction of the french word "Madam." It implies that the person being adressed is married, I therefore find it a very silly thing to use with strangers who look under 25 or aren't wearing wedding rings. I use "*Miss*" with any lady who looks under 40 or 50, around here women tend to prefer that since "ma'am" feel like you are implying that they are old enough to assume they are married.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I feel weird being called either Ma'am or Miss. Regional thing, I suppose. But Miss sounds weirder now since I'm going gray. Still, there are plenty of unmarried older women so it's still an assumption. But then, so is Miss. There is no neutral way to do this with women, is there?


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnoriensMom* 
Is this something I should be reinforcing more? I'm sure this current attitude is just a phase (right?), but I want to instill natural respect. Am I not doing something right now that I should?

Please share your thoughts, suggestions.

I call my sons "sir" sometimes, in response to their attempt to get my attention - I want them to know I take them seriously. I don't expect them to call me ma'am, but that's me. I'd think it was too formal and a little weird, but I didn't have a very disciplined up bringing and I certainly never heard anyone say "Ma'am" in my daily life.

I say "Excuse me, Sir/Ma'am" when I walk past someone or have to cut in front of someone in a grocery aisle, or when I'm paying for something. I think it's demonstrative of respect and I like that my kids see that I'm not so big for my britches that I can't say it. I hope it rubs off on them- so far they're very respectful but don't use those words. I'm cool with that.

As for your specific question about *should*, I would say, take action with INTENTION. Decide if this is something valuable to your family and then do it (or not) because that's a choice you've made for your family. *No one else can tell you if that's right or wrong, IMO.* If it's important to you, and you feel there is a lesson there, then you can discuss it with your kids as you continue to move them toward this behavior. You might consider it and find that you really don't know why you're doing it and it's adding more tension to tense moments than it's worth and abandon it. It's completely up to you. I support you in whatever you decide!


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Erin** 
to me it definitely it implies a subservience.

When I was younger (I'm 31 now), this is something I definitely would have said. Now that I'm a little older than I was then, I feel comfortable with it. It's okay if I'm 'in service' to others. It's not a bad thing. I spend a considerable amount of time volunteering in projects in my community to help families in Africa, families here, starting a food coop, etc., and I AM in service to others.

There's a scene in Walk the Line that really gets to the heart of it for me- when June is in the store and the woman says to her something like her parents must be ashamed of her, that divorce is an abomination. June's response isn't to flip her off or get snotty or rude, she says, "I'm sorry I let you down, Ma'am."

Maybe I don't agree that she needs to explain her personal life to others, but I do really like the scene because she recognizes that her actions affect others, and she takes responsibility for it.

What's wrong with a little humility....?

I think of Sir/Ma'am as a little gift of myself I'm giving to someone else, because there IS subservience in it, but it's something I choose to give freely, not something that is taken from me. I feel good, the person feels good because they were treated respectfully in a language they know, and I demonstrate respect and kindness and service to others to my kids. Who loses?


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

I grew up in the NE and never heard it.

I taught in the south (North Carolina), right off of a military base, and *all* my students and their parents used "sir" and "ma'am" and "miss".

I also used "sir" and "ma'am" and "miss" when talking to my students and their parents. I use it when speaking to others, especially on the phone (my mom worked in customer service, so I try to be a really polite customer). To me, it's just manners.









My daughter will probably just pick it up (we're a military family), but, I don't really care whether she uses "please" instead of "sir" or whatever.


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## FraggleLover (Feb 24, 2008)

Growing up we were taught never to say plain 'yes' or 'no' fullstop. It was always yes or no Mum, Dad, Brother, Teacher.

Even now hearing a plain yes in response to a question sounds rude to me.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

I was going to say what the poster just above me said...I like adding a name to the comment, for instance "Sorry." becomes " I am sorry I hit you Emma" I ask my students to say what they are thankful for and use a name,."Thank you for the juice Mary". Yes please and No thank you are expected in most cases. l Like the acknowledgement of the person on the end of the endless glasses of juice, a simple thanks mom is great, but an occasional thank you mom for helping me clean my room seems like it causes my children to be more aware of what they are thanking me for and not just the rote reiteration of words. I wouldn't say I DEMAND this but I remind them sometimes...
When my 11 yr old was copping an attitude we had an argument and I was frustrated and said "maybe if you could try saying yes ma'm!! maybe you could show a little respect!!" She was horrified because it was so foriegn to her and as the conversation progressed we realized a simple "yeah sure mom, I would be happy to do ______." was what would work for the both of us.
It is hard for me to use or hear the ma'm and sir because it feels so hierarchachel(can't spell that!!) I wouldn't bash another parent or child for having that sort of mannerism but it does establish where you are in the food chain so to speak. I wonder what other words or phrases like this trigger this same sensation...I like this conversation because I think it is a shift in our cultural modes of power. I think we can be polite, kind and respectful and still recognize each other (adults and children) as essentially equal to each other.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnoriensMom* 
but I want to instill natural respect.

It just seems like something you "instill" is "second nature" at best. If it was natural, inaction would bring that result, rather than direct and deliberate action.

As far as getting your kids to say it, I would start by offering everyone that exact level of respect. Of course typically Yes Ma'am/yes sir are reserved as symbols of passivity so affording everyone that respect would soon cause it to lose its meaning.

The truth is you cannot force someone to respect you, you can force people to fear you, but that is not the same thing as respect. The best you can do is teach your children that when you respect someone you use traditional Sir and Ma'am modifyers. By instructing, directing, or requiring that they use this kind on language, you are removing the meaning for them, which you have personally assigned to it. They will not equate it with respect, but rather with "showing" respect, no matter if they actually respect the individual or not. This is evident in her action of using a sarcastic tone when providing your required lipservice to "respect". You can force people to say things, but doing so causes them to lose their meaning.

I don't find extra words particularly useful, but if you do than the respecful way to teach your children is by modeling, because otherwise you are setting up the "yes sir yes ma'am" up for failure and sarcastic backlash, and they will have even less meaning for your kids than they already do.


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## damona (Mar 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Erin** 
off topic a little, does anyone here that doesn't teach "sir" and "ma'am" tack on "miss" or "mr" to other adults names? just curious what the feelings are on that.

we do this. for instance, the receptionist at the therapy place my kids go to is "miss jan". we know her, but i don't feel that we know her well enough for my kids to use her first name, and they cannot pronounce her last name, so we settled on this. daycare providers/pre-school teachers/therapists are generally "miss firstname" for us.

our closest friends are my kids' "aunts" and "uncles". this was how i grew up and it just seems right to me. of course, if someone were to tell me "hey, i'd rather your kids just call me by my first name", like auntie jen's dh requested, then that's what we'd do, but on the whole, this is how it goes.

btw, i don't exactly teach them to say these things, i think that it's more that i model them and the kids have heard them since their earliest memories.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
I was not taught to say "yes, ma'am," and will not teach it to my children. Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?" Respect doesn't develop from being forced to say certain words. Respect your child and she will respect you.

I love this response so much that all I can do is agree.

A lot of people think "yes ma'am" "no sir" is a Southern habit. I grew up in South Central Virginia (less than 20 minutes from the NC border) and my parents never made us use those phrases. I've always felt sorry for kids who do have to say them, though. To me it sounds standoffish and strict. For example, if I heard a small child saying sir and ma'am to her own parents I'd wonder about the closeness of their relationship. It just doesn't seem to be the type of thing you'd say to someone you care about. After all, do you say "Yes, Sir" to your SO?

Just some thoughts







.


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

I wouldn't teach my kids to call adults they knew "sir" or "ma'am". I only use it to address adults who I don't know. As in, "excuse me sir, you dropped your hat". And even then, only if I feel the need to address them as something.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
The truth is you cannot force someone to respect you, you can force people to fear you, but that is not the same thing as respect. The best you can do is teach your children that when you respect someone you use traditional Sir and Ma'am modifyers. By instructing, directing, or requiring that they use this kind on language, you are removing the meaning for them, which you have personally assigned to it. They will not equate it with respect, but rather with "showing" respect, no matter if they actually respect the individual or not. This is evident in her action of using a sarcastic tone when providing your required lipservice to "respect". You can force people to say things, but doing so causes them to lose their meaning.

Absolutely!







I couldn't have said it any better than that.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
I'm very curious what those who think it's disgusting think about other cultures where those kind of forms are indicated in every word, right down to the verb forms? In Korean, for instance, a child says different words to their parents to say "good night", the parents say something else entirely. Almost everyone is referred to by title. (Older brother, younger sister, teacher). Japanese is the same. (I'm sure there are others, but I know these two specifically)

It's done very respectfully to everyone. I really think these things are cultural, and that while they can be used to make a child feel "subserivient", they are usually just a way to be polite. That said, we don't used "Ma'am" or "sir" where I am, and to me, they sound funny.

I agree it must be very regional. The words sound very funny to me too. One time a child said Ma'am to me and I didn't like it because I thought it meant I was old








I am from Europe and in my language there are two words for 'you' one more respectful than the other. For God you would use the more respectful one with a capital (in writing).
The previous generation was thought to always use the more respectful 'you' for parents and other adults. Using the less respectful one or using the first name was considered very unrespectful.
Current generation is growing up differently. However in a country next to my country they speak the same language and they still are used to using the more respectful word in many cases.

Carma


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## heatherweh (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm from Michigan and we weren't raised saying ma'am or sir, so I don't think that is necessarily the only way to be respectful. I live in Virginia now and many people here do say it. One friend uses "sir" to refer to her son, she also calls him "son" sometimes, which is fine for her, but wouldn't come naturally to me. Even though she says this I've never heard her son say it, he calls me "Heather" not ma'am. I am just trying to teach DS to say or sign "please", "thank you", and "excuse me" and maybe "sorry" in the near future.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

We do not say ma'am and sir in my house. We do say please and thank you all the time.

I never went about "teaching" please and thank you, DD just starting saying it because it was part of the everyday language she was exposed to. She gets complements all the time on her good manners.

Manners are definitely regional. I think that part of having good manners is respecting the norms of the place where you are. So if you live in a small southern town where everyone says "yes ma'am", "no sir", and uses Miss and Mister it might be a good idea to follow suit.

But I also feel very uncomfortable being addressed as ma'am or Miss Abbie by a child that is being prodded to do so. I'm perfectly OK with just Abbie or even Olivia's Mom







.

And now to comment from a more philosophical/scholarly point of view (sometimes living with a PhD is a bad thing







):

I think that any culture that imposes *strict* guidelines for manners is a culture trying to maintain a power structure.

I think that I have read waaaaay to much African American literature and seen waaaaaay to much racist behavior in my life to not be a little squigged out by the southern ma'am/sir thing. *Just my personal experience and feeling. I am not calling anyone here, or anyone that says ma'am/sir a racist. Please don't flame me.*


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## mindymom (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamicdoula* 
What's wrong with a little humility....?

I think of Sir/Ma'am as a little gift of myself I'm giving to someone else, because there IS subservience in it, but it's something I choose to give freely, not something that is taken from me.


I agree. If someone expects you to address them in a certain way as a sign of their superiority or authority over you, then that is a reflection on their manners, not yours.









Occasionally it might bother someone to be addressed formally - at which point you would immediately stop, of course - but I have seen it have a positive effect more often than a negative one. Particularly with people who work in low-paying service professions: janitorial, fast food, shelf-stocking, etc. It's amazing how seldom these people (and I speak from experience) are even _looked_ at, let alone addressed. A small "gift" of courtesy/respect, sincerely given, can really improve a person's day.

That said, modeling the behavior probably will be more meaningful than dictating it. Your daughter is most likely too young to appreciate the subtle pleasure of strangers, but as she grows and sees your great example and becomes more aware of the effect it has, she'll most likely adopt the behavior on her own.


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## blazer (May 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicaldutchtulip
I teach and use ma'am and sir with my girls. For me it's like saying please and thank you, it's a part of manners.

Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.

I can't even get to teh second page of this without commenting.
Wow, a wee bit judgemental? Agree disagree, that is fine but to call it discusting, a bit much...

It is a cultural respect think it is not about dominance or submissive, simply respect.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Why?????

Why make them inferior? Why make them submit like that all the time.

That's disgusting.

just because that mama had her children say "yes ma'am" doesn't mean she's disgusting! give me a break. i don't make my kids say yes sir or yes ma'am, but i certainly don't mutilate parents that choose too either.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blazer* 
I can't even get to teh second page of this without commenting.
Wow, a wee bit judgemental? Agree disagree, that is fine but to call it discusting, a bit much...

It is a cultural respect think it is not about dominance or submissive, simply respect.

LOL. i didn't read beyond this comment either.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I've never been in the South, so I don't know, but maybe someone can tell me... on the subject of comparing it to please and thank you, and it being a part of good manners and not an authority/submission thing... does everyone say it to everyone else? If you were a supervisor, would you say "yes ma'am" and "sir" to employees that you supervised? If a policeman pulls a man over, do they both call each other sir? Do you say it to your kids, as consistently as you expect them to say it to you? If so, then I can see it as a regional variation of good manners. If not, then it's a very subtle sign of authority/submission. If you expect someone to extend a courtesy to you that you don't expect to extend to them, then you're not really equals.

"The South" doesn't have a monolithic culture, so it varied based on where you are. To answer some of your specific questions based on where I grew up (Georgia), yes police officers say ma'am and sir to people they're pulling over and/or arresting. Most people say it to anyone in a service industry who does something for them. So, for example, if I were walking into a restroom and a janitor was starting to clean and said, "oh do you need to go?" my response would be "yes, ma'am."

I didn't live in Georgia past college, but it didn't seem as common to me in the workplace. When I worked in college, I still said it because I was still young compared to my bosses, so I think that's a different dynamic. With children it depends. I say "no, sir" to my son as an indicator that I really don't want him to do something. I sometimes use it otherwise with my children, but in general, no adults do not use ma'am and sir to children. It's similar to Romance languages with two forms of you. Children always use the formal with adults but not the opposite. In many (other) ways, Southern speech patterns mimic Romance, rather than Germanic, languages. I'm not sure why; it's just a pattern I've noticed in learning various language structures.

I don't think people who've never lived in regions where ma'am and sir are used regularly can understand the dynamics of why/how it's used. My husband still has a very hard time with it. He grew up in Ohio and moved to Georgia for college. It's nuanced in a way that's difficult to explain, so I generally ignore people's thoughts on it if they've never experienced a culture where it's said often.

Where we live now people don't typically say it, so my children don't. We're moving to NC, and they may pick it up there. I'm not sure what the general rule is. For me, I teach my children to use it with my parents and grandparents (particularly my grandparents) because I know they would perceive it as rude for my kids *not* to say it to them. I don't think it's wrong to sometimes do what makes others feel comfortable. We only visit twice a year, so it's not going to hurt them.


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## cyndimo (Jul 20, 2005)

This is sort of related to an issue that is in the back of my mind.

A few thoughts...
1. I grew up in southern CA and there was no way anyone did any Sir'ing or Ma'am'ing, except those kids who grew up on the nearby military base. I later moved to NH and worked with a guy in a retail store who used those terms for customers all the time and I thought he sounded like an insincere suck-up. So, I've never really been into those specific terms, but for those who can use them with sincerity and comfort, I say go for it.

2. BUT - DS was born in AL. We brought him home to N. CA at the ripe old age of 8 days, so it's not like he was aware of the customs or anything. But, while we were waiting for permission to come home, I certainly experienced way more than my share of ma'ams!

Our family culture is one that feels strongly about manners. However, we don't quite manifest it in the way that I've seen in my brief forays in the American South, or in African American communities, even in the north. For example, in addition to not doing sir and maam, we don't call most adults with an honorific (ie "Miss Sally")

Historically in communities of color it has been of VITAL importance to teach children how to avoid giving offence to those in power.... the consequences for getting on the wrong side of the wrong people could be life-threatening. We're not so far removed from that era that we can be complacent.

I think it will ease my son's way in the world to be instintively polite. I do want to teach him to treat others with a respect that comes from a deep self-respect, not out of a position of powerlessness.

3. A while ago I read a book called "The Blessing of a Skinned Knee" While I didn't agree with everything, there was certainly a lot to think about. She has a section on honoring one's parents. If you want your kids to treat you with respect, she suggests starting with honoring your own parents. Also, she has a series of "rules" that I think of as sort of "fake it til you make it"... for example, children should include the parent's title/name when addressing them (ie "Thank you Mommy", "Daddy, please pass the salt"), and children should offer to refill a parent's plate if they get up to refill their own. She suggests that sometimes just saying the words will lead to the feeling behind it. I think that there are ways to implement this that are in turn respectful of the child and still establish expectations of how to work in society.

Interesting conversation.
Cyndi


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## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm Southern and I say ma'am and sir occasionally. It was definitely drilled into me as a child, but I am NOT going to do that with my children. I do say it sometimes to the kids I babysit sometimes when they ask me something I will say ma'am or sir to them, so I will probably do the same with my own kids. I think kids model their parents behavior for the most part, so if I occasionally say it to my kids they will probably occasionally say it to me, and that's fine with me.
-Jessie


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## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

Also, people are saying that their husbands say "yes ma'am". I would be insulted if my husband said "yes ma'am" to me. I wouldn't see it as subordinate in that case, I would see it as patronizing...in a way. I think I think too much, LOL!
-Jessie


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## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

We too say sir/maam. I wasnt raised with it but when I moved to the South it was the norm. You hear everyone saying it to someone. It is said equally by persons of all economic backgrounds. So my uperclass, highly educated, former bosses called our janitorial statff by maam and sir - just like the grocery checkout girl.

In my hispanic culture we have a whole "tu" vs "usted" dynamic in place of that. It has ZERO slave/french/inferiority inferences. You simply vary your speach as an outward sign of respect.


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## terran631 (May 31, 2006)

i was reading this and wanted to reply, especially because someone mentioned their child(ren) in Tae Kwon Do. I own a martial arts school that teaches children and many eastern traditions are used in the dojo. (IE: bowing) We also use the "yes ma'am, yes sir" thing. I am not trying to get my students to be subservient, they bow to me, but I also return the bow to them. We say Onegai shimasu (not sure if that's the correct spelling) but it means "please teach me". Which I ALSO say to them in some situations. The idea is that anyone can learn from anyone, regardless of age and rank.

I do reinforce as well as model the "yes ma'am" thing. For instance, it will be a reminder rather than a scolding if they forget. "Everyone stand up please, make sure you say yes ma'am." However, I also model it. A typical conversation will be:

Student: Sensei?

Me: Yes sir?

Student: Will you help me tie my belt please, ma'am?

Me: Yes sir, I will, thank you for using good manners.

At the dojo my own children use the "ma'am" or "sensei" title as is customary, but at home they call me mom and rarely use the ma'am. However, I have taught them to say "yes" as opposed to "Yeeeeah". I will say that I agree that it is how you say something more than what you say. But I disagree that saying "ma'am or sir" is somehow inherently degrading.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

I just have to jump in here. I have not read the whole thread.

Discalimer- when I was growing up my parents were VERY strict and dominant- they also did not respect me as a person or gave me the chance to make my own choices as a young person so I have made a conscious decision to always respect my child/children as people and to always give them choices so they can make their OWN decisions. Wow, that was a run-on!!!









We do use "yes, ma'am" and "yes, sir" in our house, but it's a two way street and in no way meant to show dominance. This is not forced, meaning DS will not get in "trouble" for not saying it and I do not correct him. When we are out he observes me using maam and sir with strangers and elders.

We don't use ma'am and sir to show respect- like "you must say 'yes maam' and 'yes sir' because it's respectful- we use to be polite- may mean the same to others but not to us. I call DS sir and he's 5, I also say please, thank you, and yes please when I talk to him. I respect him as a person because that's what he is and hopefully by showing him respect he shows it in return. If I ask him to do something I explain why, I don't just expect him to do it "because I said so".

But to get back to the OP, it is kind of a phase I think with the attitude. They are coming into their "own" and thinking for themselves more. As long as you keep leading by example the attitude will slowly fade.


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## PatienceAndLove (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija y mijo* 







:

When my 75 year old father told a 20 year old waitress, "Thank you, ma'am," or answered the teller at a bank with, "Yes, sir," I HIGHLY doubt it was because he felt _inferior_. It is not submitting to their power, it's showing them a common respect and courtesy.

Thank you!
It's all about common courtesy.
My daughter says "yes/no ma'am/sir" to people and says "yes/no mama/papa" at home. It's a sign of respect. And yes, we do says "yes/no vivi" to her.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija y mijo* 







:

When my 75 year old father told a 20 year old waitress, "Thank you, ma'am," or answered the teller at a bank with, "Yes, sir," I HIGHLY doubt it was because he felt _inferior_. It is not submitting to their power, it's showing them a common respect and courtesy.

Awsome


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## ~Kristina~ (Mar 11, 2006)

I think it's more of a southern thing. I live in Michigan and have only heard it used from my friend from Mississippi. I was not taught that and I won't teach my kids it either.

ETA: We use Mrs., Miss, Ms, and Mr. when refering to almost everyone.


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## Midget (Apr 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlmostAPpropriate* 
In my hispanic culture we have a whole "tu" vs "usted" dynamic in place of that. It has ZERO slave/french/inferiority inferences. You simply vary your speach as an outward sign of respect.

Thanks for pointing this out...I was going to do so the other day, then it slipped my mind! I was raised saying sir/ma'am, since my is from the South and my dad was in the air force...so I guess I would raise my kids to do with the same, although not be forceful about it. I just think it's respectively, nothing about some wierd power dynamic!


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## knowerofnada (Dec 4, 2006)

I haven't been teaching my DD to say "Yes M'am" or "Yes Sir" to us, her parents/family, but I guess since I say it to my patients at the hospital I work at, especially the elderly patients, I'm not sure what I'll do. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there. I would be very uncomfortable not referring to my elderly patients as "m'am" or "sir".


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## knowerofnada (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mija y mijo* 
Exactly. Come on, people...

When my younger cousins from down south say, "Yes, Ma'am," in their little southern accents I think it's down right adorable.









LOL it sure is.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:

I think of Sir/Ma'am as a little gift of myself I'm giving to someone else, because there IS subservience in it, but it's something I choose to give freely, not something that is taken from me. I feel good, the person feels good because they were treated respectfully in a language they know, and I demonstrate respect and kindness and service to others to my kids. Who loses?









that's a nice way to reframe the whole issue; ITA with your points-i always enjoy giving little kindnesses to people like that. just not, for me or mine, with "ma'am" and "sir"!

edited to add-I forget if i mentioned it already, but i'm southern-born and raised in TN and SC, and it's a loaded issue for me b/c of that, too. it was a big deal when i was little-my mama was (is)the parenting renegade of her family, and caught alot of grief about not making us say it. and as for cute little ones saying it, i can't tell you how many times i've heard some poor little one berated or shamed, or worse, slapped, for not saying "sir" and "ma'am"....

"Miss" and "Mr" First Name, I do if the other person initiates it. Otherwise i just use first names. I don't add it to my own name either.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We don't teach dd to say it, and don't expect her to.

I say it to elderly people mostly as a show of respect (for example, if an older gentleman opens a door for me I will say *thank you sir*).

I imagine, as is the case in most other matters, that my daughter observes me doing this and if she sees that it helps her navigate her world more effectively -- or enjoys the social benefits in doing so, she will choose that.

I am constantly impressed with dd's ability to discern which social customs feel *right* to her and her insight (mostly, she is barely 3) to use them when appropriate for her or the situation.


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## mean_jeannie (Mar 3, 2007)

roflmao!







: Whoazers! Get a grip!

Saying ma'am and sir is so normal around here, it did not occur to me that it is regional and not national!

For me it is a totally normal way to express respect and is entirely unrelated to power roles. It really is even a term of endearment sometimes!

I don't even know one person who uses it in the diabolical terms some folks in this thread are insisting it is meant. I have a tin foil hat to sell you.








:


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
I'm very curious what those who think it's disgusting think about other cultures where those kind of forms are indicated in every word, right down to the verb forms? In Korean, for instance, a child says different words to their parents to say "good night", the parents say something else entirely. Almost everyone is referred to by title. (Older brother, younger sister, teacher). Japanese is the same. (I'm sure there are others, but I know these two specifically)

It's done very respectfully to everyone. I really think these things are cultural, and that while they can be used to make a child feel "subserivient", they are usually just a way to be polite. That said, we don't used "Ma'am" or "sir" where I am, and to me, they sound funny.









:

As a Southerner, I think it's fascinating that people feel such great liberty to call our social norms "disgusting" without very much understanding of them at all. It's truly an interesting inclination to marginalize an entire region _because of_ our speech pattern. I know of no other region that is so maligned and so misunderstood. I'd love it if y'all who are so free with your adjectives of us would think a moment how it might sound if I said that saying "eh" like a Canadian was disgusting, or whatever. It's really hard to imagine that, isn't it?

I'm sure you who feel this way are ready with an answer that our culture has propagated racism and hatred, etc. etc. and that our language embodies that social structure. I'd argue that many of the same racist attitudes and hatred exist and thrive far far away from the cotton fields and textile mills down here. Absence of exposure to other races, and the resulting self-righteousness that is so often accompany that situation, do not a color blind person make.

My grandmother (whom I, of course, called ma'am, first because it was the cultural norm, but even more so because she earned it) said that manners, gentility, whatever, are for the person _to whom_ they are extended. I have been asked many times (respectfully) by people who've moved into the South, to not use sir or ma'am. I'm absolutely fine with that, as were my parents. For, in the end, it's all about showing graciousness, not groveling.


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## PatienceAndLove (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalkiwendy* 
My grandmother (whom I, of course, called ma'am, first because it was the cultural norm, but even more so because she earned it) said that *manners, gentility, whatever, are for the person to whom they are extended*. I have been asked many times (respectfully) by people who've moved into the South, to not use sir or ma'am. I'm absolutely fine with that, as were my parents. *For, in the end, it's all about showing graciousness, not groveling.*

Exactly.!

BTW, when you said "For, in the end, it's all about showing graciousness, not groveling", you hit the nail on the head.
There is no subservience in manners, gentility and graciousness.


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## mean_jeannie (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatienceAndLove* 
Exactly.!

BTW, when you said "For, in the end, it's all about showing graciousness, not groveling", you hit the nail on the head.
There is no subservience in manners, gentility and graciousness.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

i just saw this thread because it's on top....my ds ins't talking yet, but I definitely plan to have him say yes maam/yes sir. It deosn't have to be every single time, but I feel like it IS a respect thing. He is a child...if his grandma or auntie or other older person asks him to do something, "yes maam" is the respectful way to answer. Likewise, if a person older than ME asks ME to do something, I wouldn't think of answering any other way. It is very important to me that younger generations show respect ofr older generations. I will (and have) called out people for cutting me in line, walking slowly down the street and taking up the whole sidewalk, etc., but you will NEVER see me rush an elderly person or argue back with them .That is just my value system. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not degrading....they have lived longer and earned the right to be shown respect.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
i just saw this thread because it's on top....my ds ins't talking yet, but I definitely plan to have him say yes maam/yes sir. It deosn't have to be every single time, but I feel like it IS a respect thing. He is a child...if his grandma or auntie or other older person asks him to do something, "yes maam" is the respectful way to answer. Likewise, if a person older than ME asks ME to do something, I wouldn't think of answering any other way. It is very important to me that younger generations show respect ofr older generations. I will (and have) called out people for cutting me in line, walking slowly down the street and taking up the whole sidewalk, etc., but you will NEVER see me rush an elderly person or argue back with them .That is just my value system. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not degrading....they have lived longer and earned the right to be shown respect.


I'm all for being respectful to everyone I meet. But please answer something for me. Why would an elderly person get 'extra' respect just because??? You're both adult. There is NO difference between you. I really don't understand that social construct.

I was brought up to be polite and respectful. But I wasn't taught that people who were older than me were magically better or more right... You say that you wouldn't argue with an elderly person. Why not? If they are wrong why would you back off just because they're old.

I wouldn't have a problem if you said that you'd do it for everyone. Let's take this example. An old person says that it's raining. You know it's not. I have met people who will just agree with the old person "just because"... That makes no sense. Would you also agree with a coworker who insisted that it was raining? How about your child?

I really hate rules about politeness that are meant to separate people. And your description of what you plan to do sounds just like that. Will you make your child use ma'am and sir with their friends?


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I wouldn't have a problem if you said that you'd do it for everyone. Let's take this example. An old person says that it's raining. You know it's not. I have met people who will just agree with the old person "just because"... That makes no sense. Would you also agree with a coworker who insisted that it was raining? How about your child?

No, I would not blindly agree to any false statement by an elder, a friend, or a child - unless any of the above were senile or playing. Yet, there are certainly nice ways of disagreeing. And, yes, it is commonly used for people who are contemporaries, and even younger people. I say it to my two year old frequently, it's an *endearment*. I do have to agree with a PP that it is unseemly and decidedly NOT gracious to anyone to cause people to wait while you train your child to say yes ma'am or yes sir in public. That definitely grates my nerves. I'm all for being as gracious to your kids as you are your grandmother, or a police officer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 

I really hate rules about politeness that are meant to separate people. And your description of what you plan to do sounds just like that.

Once again, I have to disagree with you. If there is a separation acknowledged here, and there may well be, I think that it is the kind that you should appreciate. In showing this sort of graciousness, we are signaling an appreciation of the other person's individuality and specialness. We are signaling that we are *pausing* to take note of them as *individuals*. This willingness to pause is a very, very special feature of the Southern culture, one I hope we will never, ever lose.

In addition to that, there is a cultural tradition of ancestor "worship" for lack of a better word, very similar to African and Asian cultures. Ancestors and elders are simply just revered. While some might find it disgusting, it is _our_ culture, and for anyone to pass judgment on an entire culture in such an offhand and dismissive manner is extremely irritating, not to mention ignorant. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's imperialistic - those who think that Southerners should let go of cultural mores (especially these that are meant to as kindnesses) simply because people in other parts of our country (but NOT part of our culture) don't know anything about our culture or the history of our traditions, are much like the British putting white gloves on Africans. Lest you think I exaggerate or am alone in my opinions, I'd invite you to google the words "southern united states" and "postcolonialism."


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## bronxmom (Jan 22, 2008)

I personally do not usually say "sir" or "mamm" and don't like them. To me, they do imply a hierarchical social structure and fairly rigid ideas of authority. And I'm guessing that even in the South, where it does seem much more common, it's probably changing in the way that social customs tend to do.

That being said, my goal in teaching my daughter manners is to teach her empathy and sensitivity to other people, even when we disagree with them (unless they are outrightly racist, sexist or homophobic - in which case I do not believe that sensitivity or respect is warranted). So, for example, my daughter calls most of the adults in her life by their first name - mostly my friends. But her best friend has been taught to call adults "Miss" then their first name. She always calls me Miss Jennifer. I then call her Miss Samantha b/c it makes me feel more comfortable without undermining her mom. I've noticed that my daughter, without either me or her friend's mom asking her to, calling her friend's mom "Miss Lavene". My daughter's friend has family all from the South and is religious and I think does have a different vision of parenting from me. I LOVE that my daughter is sensitive to that while being able to know that those are not our values. Similarly, we are not religious and do not go to church, but she would never talk down her friend's religious beliefs and if she spends the night there and goes to church with them, then she is expected to be quiet and respectful. I think that is the essence of manners - not some adherence to a single norm but being able to respond in an empathetic and respectful way to others.

That being said, if another adult attempted to demean my daughter in any way or be disrespectful to her and my family, I would want her to feel confident to stand up to them and I would back her up. I think the respect has to be mutual or you forfeit your right. I'm proud that I think she understands the distinction because she grew up with it.


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bronxmom* 
I personally do not usually say "sir" or "mamm" and don't like them. To me, they do imply a hierarchical social structure and fairly rigid ideas of authority. And I'm guessing that even in the South, where it does seem much more common, it's probably changing in the way that social customs tend to do.

That being said, my goal in teaching my daughter manners is to teach her empathy and sensitivity to other people, even when we disagree with them (unless they are outrightly racist, sexist or homophobic - in which case I do not believe that sensitivity or respect is warranted). <snip> I LOVE that my daughter is sensitive to that while being able to know that those are not our values. <snip> *I think that is the essence of manners - not some adherence to a single norm but being able to respond in an empathetic and respectful way to others*.


I think what you're saying in the second part of your post exactly mirrors what I'm saying. It's about concern _for_ others - not some strict adherence to an idea about someone's place "above" you. I admire you for instilling in your daughter the willingness to accommodate others' ways of doing things. It sounds as if she will be very equipped to make her way through this wonderfully (and hopefully always) diverse world.

Obviously, culture changes. I'm fascinated by that, and open to it. I just would love to avoid the sublimation of the good parts of the Southern culture to the will of the homogenizing inclinations of the American crucible, er, melting pot.

Quote:

That being said, if another adult attempted to demean my daughter in any way or be disrespectful to her and my family, I would want her to feel confident to stand up to them and I would back her up. I think the respect has to be mutual or you forfeit your right. I'm proud that I think she understands the distinction because she grew up with it.
Now, you mentioned that you've relatives in the South, so surely you've noticed that we do not suffer fools or meanies lightly. I applaud you for teaching her to stand up for herself. It sounds like we're actually on the same page. Down here, we just add "Bless your heart," to the end of a healthy tongue-lashing.







.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalkiwendy* 

Obviously, culture changes. I'm fascinated by that, and open to it. I just would love to avoid the sublimation of the good parts of the Southern culture to the will of the homogenizing inclinations of the American crucible, er, melting pot.


Are you saying that 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' are "good" parts of Southern culture??????????????????


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
I was not taught to say "yes, ma'am," and will not teach it to my children. Do you say "yes, ma'am" to your daughter?" Respect doesn't develop from being forced to say certain words. Respect your child and she will respect you.

Sane here, I think it's mostly a southern thing. The time I lived in Alabama as a kid it was required to say it in school. Growing up in OR I never heard anyone say it before.


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Are you saying that 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' are "good" parts of Southern culture??????????????????

Absolutely without a doubt. I know you find it disgusting, and I'm sorry that you feel that way. It would be nice if you could come up with more a more tactful way of describing someone's ideas and culture, don't you think?


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## knowerofnada (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
i just saw this thread because it's on top....my ds ins't talking yet, but I definitely plan to have him say yes maam/yes sir. It deosn't have to be every single time, but I feel like it IS a respect thing. He is a child...if his grandma or auntie or other older person asks him to do something, "yes maam" is the respectful way to answer. Likewise, if a person older than ME asks ME to do something, I wouldn't think of answering any other way. It is very important to me that younger generations show respect ofr older generations. I will (and have) called out people for cutting me in line, walking slowly down the street and taking up the whole sidewalk, etc., but you will NEVER see me rush an elderly person or argue back with them .That is just my value system. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not degrading....they have lived longer and earned the right to be shown respect.


I completely agree. Great post! Like I said, I would be very, very uncomfortable not calling my elderly patients "m'am" and "sir". And this has just kind of carried over to the way I address the elderly in the community. As far as it being "disgusting", that's plain nutty.


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## saturnine25 (Mar 26, 2002)

My perception of yes, ma'am and yes, sir, is that its use is regional. I grew up in the Northeast, and never heard it. Here in FL, I hear it all the time and it makes me cringe, especially when I am the one being called ma'am, but that's my own hangup. I can appreciate that it is an important part of some families' value systems and cultural conditioning.


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