# New here and crying...I have no idea what to do, punishment and natural consequences



## madelynlee7 (May 8, 2009)

I'm a new member and I really, really need help. Please don't flame me, I realize that I'm not perfect, but I need help now. I'm a single mom to 2 kids, DD1 age 14 and DD2 age 10. DD1 and DD2 have the same father but we are not together and he is not involved in their lives. Their father and I had a brief summer relationship and after we broke up I found out I was pregnant. He knew but never made an effort to be involved. 4 years later he came back and swore he had changed and straightened out his life and wanted to be involved. This time he was only around for a week. I "slipped" once, and that is how DD2 came to be (please don't judge or flame, I was a young, overwhelmed single mom and he was my first love) Since he left I haven't seen him again, I have no idea where he is or anything. DD2 has never met him and DD1 met him a handful of times when she was really young but she doesn't remember him at all. There are no pictures of him or anything, and neither of my girls remembers him.

I have done my best to give them a good life. I breastfeed both of them well past 6 months, they slept in my bed as babies, I have never made them do time-outs or anything like that, and I have never EVER spanked or hit them. I try so hard not yell and have always tried to do natural consequences. Since their father left the second time I have not dated anyone or brought an endless string of boyfriends around. We live in a nice part of the city and each DD has their own room. I took some night school courses and got a better job where I can even be at home sometimes, and while we are not rich and don't have a ton of stuff, I can get by with a little budgeting and my daughters have a roof, food to eat, warm clothes etc. They have lots of friends in this neighborhood. They both do very well in school and have never shown any behaviour problems. Since neither of them has ever known a father it is not like he just left and they miss him. They haven't had any traumas or deaths of someone close. I have always tried to do my best for them, though it is hard sometimes since I have no family and my parents are deceased (back when I was a teen) and their father doesn't have any relatives that I know of. I really, really try to be a good mom, and that's why what has happened is upsetting me so much.

DD1 has always been into music, since she was small. Ihave never been able to afford an instrument or lessons, but when DD1 became a pre-teen she because even more interested in learning, and settled on the electric guitar. AT 13 she decided to save for one on her own, and began babysitting for our neighbours. I would also pay her for odd jobs when I could, though she always helps out with chores even when I didn't pay her. She saved every cent she earned for over a year and ended up with $225. She was so proud of herself for saving and I was proud of her as well. DD1 did research and bought a really nice red electric guitar and as a birthday present I bought her an amp. Even though her birthday isn't until July she needed the amp so I bought it for her now. DD1 was in love with it, she started to teach herself to play and was actually doing quite well. DD1 had the guitar for 1 month, then the situation happened 2 weeks ago. It was the afternoon, DD1 was out with friends, DD2 was watching TV and decided to sit on the deck and enjoy a book. It was such a nice day that I feel asleep. I awoke to a horrible screaming, so bad I thought one of my girls was in trouble.

I went inside and DD1 was crying. The guitar was smashed. Broken. Literally in pieces. After I calmed her down I tried to figure out what happened. Later that night DD2 admitted that she had smashed the guitar on the floor. She said that she didn't mean any harm, and that she had been watching a music video on TV and playing with her sister's guitar and gotten carried away and had imitated the musicians in the video when they smashed their instruments. She said that she hadn't meant to break it and that she was sorry. I truly believe she means it, her sister is another story.

The guitar is a write-off. it cannot be fixed, believe me, I tried. I took it to many repair places and every single one said it was too damaged. DD1 is devastated. Like I said above, we are not rich, I make enough that we can get by if I budget, clip coupons etc, but I don't have anywhere near enough money that I am able to replace it. I went over and over the budget, I have tried trimming it or cutting things out and I still cannot come up with any money. We have no vehicle and use public transportation but since we live in the city it isn't a big deal. We have basic TV with only a few channels. I have a cell phone, but it is paid for though my work and neither of my DD's have one. I have tried to lower our grocery bill, but I was already shopping at discount and clipping coupons, and if I cut it then we will literally be living onbread alone. I have money saved for both them to go to college, but it is locked in and I cannot draw from it even if I wanted to.

The only other money I have is $200 saved for DD2. Both my girls are members of a neighborhood club association (it is free) When the kids reach DD2's age group, they get to go on a camping/wilderness adventure, with some of the parents as chaperones. DD1 went when she was that age and had a blast, her and her friends from the neighborhood still talk about it a lot almost 4 years later, and she has pictures all over her room. The trip is in June. This is where I am torn. DD1 wants me to give her the $200 so she can buy a new guitar. But if I do then DD2 won't be able to go on the trip because it is in a month and I won't have another $200 by then. I have done the math. I can't afford to buy DD1 a replacement guitar until Christmas. DD2 is only 10 she is too young to babysit like her sister, so she cannot pay DD1 back on her own. If DD1 saves after babysitting again it will take her another year to make that much money, and since she is only 14 she is not old enough to get a part-time job until next year, and even then it will take her months to save enough that amount of money. I can't ask anyone I know for money. The economy is tough and most of them are just making enough like me. None of them have that much money lying around. DD1 doesn't want a different kind of guitar, she wants the same model, new not used. She says that since she bought a new one she should have a new one as a replacement.

Part of me wants to give her the money from DD2's trip, but at the same time I don't want to DD2 to miss this once in a lifetime camping trip. All her friends are going and I don't want it to be where they talk about it years later and she missed out on it, all because of one stupid mistake. I have talked to the trip organizers, there is no way that the price can be lowered, they are already getting a deal and the cost has to be paid up front. I don't think DD2 meant to break the guitar, but she is not a child anyone and she knows better then to even touch her sister things without permission. She should not have even been playing with it. DD1 is crushed, she has stayed in her room for the past 2 weeks, and says that she hates her sister and doesn't want to live here anymore. She feels as though I'm favouring her DD2, and we have fought about it and DD1 has yelled at me and says she hates me. I am so overwhelemed, I wish I didn't let them watch so much TV. If I had been inside with DD2 then thismight not have happened.

I haven't slept in days because I have cried so much. I feel like no matter what I do I will be failing one of my girls. I want to punish DD2 but not too harshly like her missing thetrip. I know she is 10 and old enough to know better, but she is so young still. I feel like if I was a better mom then I could provide for both my daughters and I would have enough money to buy a new guitar without DD2 having to miss her trip. I have no idea where to even start with natural consequences on this. Do I give DD1 the money and have DD2 miss her trip, or do I make DD1 wait until Christmas or beyond to get a replacement guitar? Sorry if this is so long, and if you made it though all this then thank-you. This may be incoherent, I know this is all jumbled andeverything, I just really needed to get it out. I have no idea what to do. I am such a bad mom









Edited for spacing to make my post easier to read. No words have been changed


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i don't have any advice, it sounds like a horrid situation.









my kids are both younger so i'm not sure what i'd do... i'm leaning towards replacing the guitar but i was the older sibling and it always seemed to me like my parents favoured my younger brother


----------



## SaraLe6 (Mar 4, 2009)

It may seem harsh, but I think missing the camping trip IS the natural consequence for ruining her sister's guitar. It is not fair that your DD1 should have to wait 7+ months to get a replacement when she worked SO HARD to get it in the first place. It is DD2's responsibility to replace the guitar, and if that means missing the camping trip.. well, that's what happens.

You are not a bad mom. You can't watch them every second, and really, a 10 year old should be old enough to know better. Whether she meant to break it or not, she did, and now she has to replace what she broke.


----------



## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

to MDC!

My DD is only 16 months, so I don't have a lot of experience, but I think I would probably give your DD1 the money to replace the guitar. Yes, it's tough on your DD2, but it may also be a valuable lesson.

Could DD2 go on this trip next year instead?

I was also the older sibling and my younger brother broke or ruined things of mine a number of times when we were growing up. We didn't have enough money that my parents could replace them either, but he never had to deal with the consequences of his actions in any way other than knowing that his sister was mad at him. He's now a grown man but still has little sense of personal responsibility, and no sense of the value of money.

Not at all saying that your DD will turn out like that, but I think that it's important for kids to make amends/reparations as far as they can for damage that they've done, either accidentally or not.

Have you tried sitting down with the two of them and asking them to help you come up with a solution? They might be able to come up with something more creative that you would have thought of.








You sound like you're doing a wonderful job mama. Hope things work out.


----------



## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
:
Have you tried sitting down with the two of them and asking them to help you come up with a solution? They might be able to come up with something more creative that you would have thought of.

That was my thought as well. Maybe a family meeting of sorts. You'll need a safe time/space for your DD's to vent feelings a bit (I would moderate as best you can so it doesn't turn into a blaming match or a fight--keeping it respectful, etc.), and then focus on solving the problem. Perhaps DD2, if she really understands the situation and feels remorse, will suggest or at least be on board with waiting until next year to go to camp, since this is a huge deal to DD1 and she is responsible. It doesn't have to feel like a punishment--you have a serious problem which needs solving. Maybe your DD's will think of something outside the box to make it all work out?

Good luck--hope you find a solution. And you sound like a terrific mom to me. Let go of the guilt--it doesn't serve anyone.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Thank goodness she didn't smash it into the amp.

When's the camp? Any chance she could work as a mother's helper for a month or so for a few friends/acquaintances of yours to earn the money?

Because really, you spending the money you'd put aside for DD2 on DD1 isn't actually DD2 replacing the guitar. Unless she's the one to suggest using the money that way.

Maybe see if there's any way she could work to earn the money, and present to her that she needs to replace DD1's guitar. And then if she needs help coming up with solutions, you can present using the camp money, earning the money, getting DD1 a less expensive acoustic guitar so she can work on learning chords and such while DD2 saves up more slowly to replace the electric guitar (and then DD2 can have the acoustic guitar if she wants or it can be sold back to a pawn shop to get DD2 her money back).

Oh and I wouldn't present using the camping money as using the camping money. I'd tell DD2 that you could give DD1 $200 to replace the guitar, but that would mean that you wouldn't be able to afford DD2 going to the camp.


----------



## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaraLe6* 
It may seem harsh, but I think missing the camping trip IS the natural consequence for ruining her sister's guitar. It is not fair that your DD1 should have to wait 7+ months to get a replacement when she worked SO HARD to get it in the first place. It is DD2's responsibility to replace the guitar, and if that means missing the camping trip.. well, that's what happens.

You are not a bad mom. You can't watch them every second, and really, a 10 year old should be old enough to know better. Whether she meant to break it or not, she did, and now she has to replace what she broke.

Completely agreed. Her actions have consequences. And frankly I'm dubious about her story about "imitating" rock stars on TV. Surely she noticed that when they banged their guitars around, the guitars smashed? Plus, not only did she destroy her sister's most valued posession, she violated tons of boundaries by touching it without permission in the first place. It was a terrible thing to do to her sister and I think the punishment is justified.


----------



## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Ohhh, I really really feel for you! What a tough situation to have to navigate!

I do think this will be a very harsh lesson for DD2, but I do think she needs to miss camp to pay for the guitar. I agree with a pp who said it is dubious that she didn't realize that the guitar would smash(and be ruined).
It is SO unfortunate that she will have to miss out on something lal of her friends will get to enjoy, but sometimes life is HARD and if you do something that is pretty much a really bad idea then there might be some tough consequences and it would not at all be ok for DD1 to suffer while DD2 is living it up at camp with her friends! How wretched that would be!


----------



## Samantha'smommy (Apr 30, 2009)

I agree with some of the pp. I would sit the girls down, away from home, maybe a park and have them try to come up with a solution together that they would both be willing to have happen or I would tell DD2 that since she did violate her sisters privacy of her room and her belongings then she forfiets her camping trip. Like one Mama said life is HARD and you will always have a consequence you do not like when something you do is wrong.

Good luck and quit punishing yourself. You did not do anything wrong!you are your DD's







no matter what!







:







:


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
Completely agreed. Her actions have consequences. And frankly I'm dubious about her story about "imitating" rock stars on TV. Surely she noticed that when they banged their guitars around, the guitars smashed? Plus, not only did she destroy her sister's most valued posession, she violated tons of boundaries by touching it without permission in the first place. It was a terrible thing to do to her sister and I think the punishment is justified.


Dubious is putting it mildly for me. Then again, I had a very sneaky and vindictive younger sister who got away with [email protected] like that all the time so maybe I'm biased.

I'd use the camp money to buy the guitar. If DD2 gets away with this, heaven knows what her next stunt will be.


----------



## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

I don't have older kids, but I'd definitely use the camp money to replace the guitar. I think it would be an important (if hard) lesson for DD2, and if you let her go to camp and DD1 has to start back at square one because of her sister's behavior, you risk DD1 being bitter toward her sister (and you) for a very long time. Don't say you're a bad mom. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job!


----------



## Mamafreya (May 13, 2004)

Being the oldest of five kids, I think your oldest needs to have her guitar replaced. I never had something like a guitar get ruined growing up but my stuff constantly got broken or lost and most of the time my parents couldn't replace the things that were damaged. It really really sucks to have something that you love and worked hard to get ruined. I really think replacing the guitar is the only solution in this case.

I also think that your youngest dd had to have known that the guitar would've been damaged. It's not like they do that on tv and the guitar looks brand-new afterward, yk. Her story doesn't jive at all, sorry. If she were 5 or 6 then I would maybe consider it as being truthful but she's 10.....

The only other thing I could think of is selling something of your youngest daughters. Does she have anything that you could sell that might equal the cost of the guitar?


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I have a slight disagreement with some earlier suggestions. I wouldn't talk to the girls together. I'd ask DD1 if she'd be okay with a compromise like getting an inexpensive guitar for awhile while DD2 saves up to replace the fancy electric guitar, or DD2 doing DD1's chores so DD1 has time to work and earn money. Then, knowing what DD1 is okay with beyond getting a new guitar immediately, I'd talk with DD2 about how she's going to replace DD1's guitar.

I don't think you should talk to them together because I don't think DD2 should get to decide whether to replace the guitar and I don't think DD1 should get to decide how the guitar is replaced.


----------



## Everrgreen (Feb 27, 2007)

I agree that the DD2's camp money should now be used to replace the guitar. I think that is a natural consequence because there is only so much money available. And because the guitar was broke, that money now needs to be used to replace the guitar.

I also don't understand how a 10 year old wouldn't know that playing roughly with the guitar would break it, she should be old enough to know better. I think there might be something missing from that story.


----------



## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Wanted to add that since this has happened once and the new guitar could mean dd2 won't be getting to do something she apparently REALLY wants to do and will potentially upset her over and over again for quite awhile it might be worthwhile to buy dd1 a guitar case with a lock because if the new guitar gets "accidentally" broken there doesn't sound like there is money to replace it yet again! And if dd1 can't remember to keep it safe in it's locked case when she isn't using it then it would be her responsibility since dd2 obviously can't be trusted around it.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

For your older DD's sake, it might be worth getting to the bottom of what really happened. My younger sister was extremely jealous if I got anything she didn't have, or got to do anything that she was considered too young to do. So she frequently destroyed my possessions or clothes, or managed to sabotage any activities I might have that did not include her. This all went right over my mothers head, and I resented deeply that she always believed my sister and that she thought it was always my fault when these things happened.


----------



## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

i agree that it sounds like something is missing. guitars can take quite a beating before it's irreparable...
i think dd2 should replace it for dd1. perhaps talk with her to figure out how she thinks she can do that. i also think using the money for camp isn't the same as her earning it some other way nor is missing the camping trip a direct consequence for her actions. i think dd1 should get a less expensive guitar until dd2 can replace it / if the trip is far enough way use part of the money now and have dd2 earn that part of the money back to go on trip.
dd1 might want a brand new one if dd2 is truly sorry and tries to replace it she could have some compassion for her and get a used one or different model


----------



## madelynlee7 (May 8, 2009)

hi everyone. Thank-you for the replies and for saying that I'm a good mom and stuff. I know that I have done the best for my girls, but long nights like last night just make me doubt, kwim?

Things are tense around here. To answer some of the questions...there is no way DD1 will sit down with DD2 to talk it out. DD1 is so mad at her sister, she told me that it has taken every ounce of her willpower not to smack her (of course I have never hit my kids and I don't condone hitting ever)

I suggested a cheaper guitar, but DD1 does not want an acoustic guitar, or another cheaper electric guitar. She wants the exact same one she bought. She says it isn't fair to her if she has to have something cheaper, even as a temporary replacement. I have tried to talk to DD2 about why she was playing with the guitar, but she just keeps saying she didn't mean it and is sorry. She has always been truthful to me, so that is why this is so hard for me to grasp. I don't understand why she did what she did.

DD2 cannot go on the trip next year. It is only for her age group and next year she will be too old. Also there is no way she will be able to work to earn that much money. She is too young to babysit, and there is no one in this neighborhood who needs a mother's helper. For her to go anywhere to be a mother's helper she would have to go further away, and with me working most days and not having a car there is no way for her to get there, and it is much to far for her to go by herself.

Also the trip is in less than a month now, and it has to be paid for in two weeks, so there isn't any way that DD2 can earn that much money in that amount of time. I know I have to give the trip money to DD1, I just don't know how to break it to DD2. It's like no matter what I do one of my girls will get hurt









I tried to make this post more clear than the last one. I am going to go back to edit the other one, just to space it out a little better so it is easier to read. I am NOT going to change any of the text. Thank-you again for the replies and support, it means a lot to have people to "talk" to.


----------



## Miasmamma (Sep 20, 2006)

While DD2 will be hurt, she needs to understand that whether she meant it or not, there are consequences for touching and breaking her sister's things. Your older DD has every right to ask for a replacement and to be mad at her sister. And I agree with the PP who mentioned a locking guitar case! Good luck Mama and know that you are making the right decision.


----------



## linz2491 (Sep 11, 2007)

I also believe that the camping money needs to go to dd1. I totally understand how hard that will be since you want your dd2 to have those good memories. It sucks for both of you.
I know you said you don't know where the father is but maybe you can see about finding him maybe through facebook? Of course not with your childrens knowledge. Tell him you would like $200 for a child expese. Don't get into it with him though. You never know, maybe he will come through.
My oldest sisters father was not involved in her life after 1. we were really poor when she was about 11, my mom found him and let him know she needed clothes, he spent about $600 on clothes for her, and as far as I know never saw her. Still was not in her life the rest of the time but did come through this one time.
This may be an option as long as you can not let him suck you in. Believe me I know how hard it is. I have a 3rd child with my dh but we had been seperated 1 1/2 years when I got preggo.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

have you tried posting on wishuponahero.com for money for the trip or a guitar?

i am an older sister who had a little sister who would steal and break my things...so i can kind of see the pp's wish for punishment...

but i dont believe punishment is beneficial.
i can not see taking the money from dd2's trip. the natural consequence of her breaking the guitar is the stress in your house right now. you dont have to do anything for natural consequences to be. they just are.

sure dd2 did something wrong. but by being so willfully wrathful dd1 is also doing wrong. personally i wouldnt feel right appeasing her at the cost to your youngest.

maybe im just contrary but man i feel horrible for your poor dd2. shes got strangers on the internet calling for her punishment


----------



## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

I agree: your older daughter's guitar should be replaced, and if the sister who broke it on purpose needs to skip camp to have that happen...well, that is the natural consequence. Younger DD can go to camp next year, and she will learn a valuable lesson about the treatment of other people's possessions.

I also don't buy that she didn't know what was going to happen when she smashed the guitar on the ground. And the fact that she left it there on the ground for her sister to find rather than fess up isn't too positive, either.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

thats a logical consequence... not a natural consequence


----------



## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I disagree w/ getting her a cheaper guitar. She should have an equal replacement and an apology from dd2. In turn, dd1 should then stop being so mad she wants to "smack her" and say she forgives her.

And then you should keep an eye on the dynamics b/c that was the lamest story (dd2's excuse) I have ever heard. She must think she can get away w/ a lot to not even bother w/ a better story.

If you as her parent believe the camp is important as an actual growing up thing, then search around for assistance or get DD babysitting/doing odd jobs.
Summer is coming up and mowing jobs can bring in a lot of cash.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

No flames here.


----------



## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

Well, I don't agree that there are any "shoulds", but I think you are handling this very compassionately.

I do see value in using the camp money and I know dd2 will be so disappointed and that might be one of those life lessons where learns to be extremely careful around others items.

My little brother used, abused and lost all of our stuff. My mom most always defended him and then if we insisted it be replaced she did it. I don't think she did him any favors.

Like I said I don't think there is a right answer, just the life lessons of navigating around your relationships.


----------



## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

i know dd1 feels it unfair to have anything less than a brand new one of the same brand however the fact is that its broken and a new of same type just can't be pulled out of thin air. the nice thing to do if you break someone's things is to replace it and be sorry. the nice thing to do if our stuff is broken is to forgive and not demand the breaker "pay for it". i don't think its fair to dd2 however to say well the only $ i have is the money for your trip which happens to be just the right amount so she gets it. what if the money was for something else. what if it was a vaulable object of your own? take the money out of the equation and breaking the guitar doesn't equal missing trip, especially since this camping thing is a one time event. even if dd1 did get a brand new one i doubt she wuld forgive dd2. i'm still of the opionion that dd1 gets a cheaper one until dd2 is able to earn $ for a new one, in a reasonable amount of time but it might take a while.


----------



## Ellp (Nov 18, 2004)

I have a younger sister too, and like the others, my stuff did occasionally get broken, stolen etc. My parents did defend my sister and I really can't ever remember getting compensated for my loss.









That said, ask your DD2 how important the camping trip is to her. Would she see it as important as you or Dd#1, or would it just be another fun activity that would be forgotten by the next fun activity? Would Dd#2 consent for "her" camping money to be given to Dd#1 as compensation? (Without any pressure applied).

If the camping trip is as important as say Dd#1's experience was, then I say no, don't take it way from DD#2. Its easier to replace a guitar than it is to replace a once in a lifetime experience.


----------



## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Actions have consequences. I agree with the major boundary issues here. I'm the oldest of six, and an amateur musician. I know what it is to have my things broken, and I know what it is to love music. And I have siblings who, to this day, want to spit on my dreams.

All of which factor into my vote for DD2 has to forfeit the trip. DD1 deserves the real deal, not a cheap variation.

As for the sorry / forgiveness aspect... those take time. DD1 will need to forgive, eventually, but for the last two weeks her life's dreams have been crushed. It's going to take time for that to heal.


----------



## ebbybaby (Nov 30, 2008)

Just so you know $200 is A LOT for a guitar, have you not checked pawn shops for used acoustics? They go for somewhere around $50, and to have it tuned by someone it should be a basic charge of $25 dollars, I'd be shopping on the buy/sells, my dad plays guitar and we all have played a bit here and there, I see what guitars are going for at new stores, somewhere around 3-600 for really nice ones that are mid level grade. Just something to think about. Also coming from a family of 3 girls, I'm the middle sister, my lil sister 3 years younger DESTROYED EVERYTHING OF MINE.... it was out of spite, jealousy, revenge usually, so this might have happened because of that, its something between the 2 of them that they need to work out themselves, I don't think its fair to take away a camping trip either, but there has to be compromise on both their parts. I come from a family where we didn't have much growing up either, so I feel you and I see how this is stressful, I think its only going to get harder as they are teenagers so just accept them doing stupid things to each other, my mom eventually just started saying "Dont get mad, get even"... and I did. I dont think my post helped you much but just sharing something, on this mothers day where I'm just zoning out and drinking coffee. Much love dear, there will be good and bad times, especially with girls.


----------



## Scottishduffy (Oct 8, 2008)

It is a very difficult situation and either way someone will feel bad. The question is who will be the one to feel bad? The victim (older D) or the offender (younger DD)? Personally I think the Victim should be compensated with the new guitar.

Older DD worked very hard for that guitar. She set a goal and worked for months to meet it. It wasn't just a guitar, it was an acocmplishment of a large goal that she had set for herself. Through no fault of her own her sister detsroyes the guitar. Regardless of the intentions of younger sister, the guitar is smashed. To top it off younger sister did take responsibility to smashing the guitar and instead left it smashed for the sibling to find. It is perfectly acceptable for DD1 to be angry right now. She is dealing with what she views as a devastating loss.

While it will be hard to take the camp money, i believe it needs to be done. Have a long chat with DD2 about how important that guitar was, and how much it meant to DD1. Explain that now the DD2's camp money must be used to replace the guitar, because it is the right thing to do. Have DD2 go herself to get the new guitar using the camp money. You and DD2 can talk about how sometimes doing the right thing is difficult. After a new guitar has been obtained DD1 will most likely be more receptive to forgiveness once she feels DD2 is genuinely remorseful.

I imagine it would hurt DD1 beyond words if DD2 went to camp and had a great time, while she sat at home still angry and hurting. DD1 may feel as if you are favoring DD2, trying not to make her feel bad for her actions, while ignoring the pain and sadness she is feeling. DD1 feels like a victim and would most likely feel even more hurt if she felt that the person who hurt her was somehow 'rewarded' after the act. Not that this is the case, but it may be how DD1 percieves things. This could build up a lot of resentment between the girls. DD1 should not suffer because of DD2's choices, DD2 should be accountable and deal with the difficult choices and emotions that will go along with restitution. When we do wrong, we should attempt to make things right.

My hubby had a younger brother who always detsroyed expensive items her got. He tried his best to protect his items as his parents would blame DH if any of his items were in any way accessible to his brother (not really yhat much younger). DH always felt angry that younger Bro never had responsibility for breaking the objects, but DH would get blamed if younger bro broke something. He felt he consistently lost out of things while little bro received little to ramifications. DH had to be hurt and upset, while little bro still had all his toys and on occassion was glad at depriving DH of a toy that he had wanted. DH still feels resentment toward his litto bro and toward his Mom for favoring the younger brother.


----------



## GirlBoyGirlBoy (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, this is a toughy... I think I have to agree with Scottishduffy when she points out that DD1 worked hard and earned the money herself for the guitar and I don't agree that she should then have to accept a lesser instrument than the one she saved for and earned.

Is there a chance that she has cooled off a little and would be able to discuss the fact that DD2 would have to forego the camping trip to buy the new guitar right now? Would she be willing to wait awhile for DD2 to earn the money? As hard as it would be, I think she deserves to have her guitar over DD2's camping trip because it doesn't honestly sound to me like DD2 did this by accident--but you know your kid and I don't so I will butt out of that part!


----------



## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

I think DD2's camp money should be used to buy her sister a new guitar. I also don't really buy her "I was just imitating what I saw on tv" story. I think most kids are smarter than that. She may have gotten carried away by an impulse, but that doesn't mean she is excused from the consequences.

I know that the OP sees the camp experience as an important fun experience for DD2, but missing it won't do her any actual harm. She will do other fun things and make other nice memories. Breaking her sister's most prized possession needs to have tougher consequences than just a feeling bad about it. DD1 put hours of sacrifice, planning and effort into saving for the guitar. No way is it fair for her to lose it due to her sister's disrespect, while DD2 gets to go on a fun trip.


----------



## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

A thought: Would it be a worthwhile exercise to say to DD1 that the money is there and she can have it if she wants, but it means DD2 won't be going to camp and that will be her punishment - or, there will be another form of punishment such as sacrifice of something else and that money will go to replacement of the guitar, but later - then let DD1 decide? Not guilt trip her or anything, that's not the point, but give her the power to choose her sister's punishment and how soon she gets the guitar. Or do you think that would put too much pressure on her? Thoughts, ladies?

The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly obvious that DD2 was just incredibly jealous of this thing her sister had and acted out, and that's not cool at all. She needs to face big consequences for it.


----------



## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
A thought: Would it be a worthwhile exercise to say to DD1 that the money is there and she can have it if she wants, but *it means DD2 won't be going to camp and that will be her punishment* - or, there will be *another form of punishment such as sacrifice of something else* and that money will go to replacement of the guitar, but later - then let DD1 decide? Not guilt trip her or anything, that's not the point, but give her the power to choose her sister's *punishment* and how soon she gets the guitar. Or do you think that would put too much pressure on her? Thoughts, ladies?

The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly obvious that DD2 was just incredibly jealous of this thing her sister had and acted out, and that's not cool at all. She needs to face big consequences for it.

nothing against your post in particular ell you just verbalize it well.....

it seems to me that a lot of people, especially those who want to camp $ to be forfeited, are calling for punishment. i don't know about op but to me punishment isn't GD.


----------



## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommabear207* 
nothing against your post in particular ell you just verbalize it well.....

it seems to me that a lot of people, especially those who want to camp $ to be forfeited, are calling for punishment. i don't know about op but to me punishment isn't GD.

An honest question, that I hope might help clarify the issue and the options:

How does one distinguish between "punishment" and "natural consequences" in this situation?

I can certainly see the perception of time pressure as a problem in making that distinction. If the family can find a way to clear a time to deal with the issue, that would help with creativity and considering all the options.

The financial pressure, though, is not going away soon.


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

For all those calling for dd#2 punishment- it sounds like there are a lot of personal experiences that are influencing thoughts on this. If DD2 has a history of breaking, destroying or being really jealous of dd1's stuff then Im sure OP would have mentioned something. I agree with another poster- natural consequence is the tension and anger in the house. She doesn't need to be punished!!! Of course, the right course of action may be skipping the trip to come up with the money but not because she "deserves" it. I feel just as badly for dd2 as for dd1. Hard hard situation


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

sure dd2 did something wrong. but by being so willfully wrathful dd1 is also doing wrong. personally i wouldnt feel right appeasing her at the cost to your youngest.
I disagree.

I don't think that wanting your guitar replaced means that you're being "wrathful" and that replacing a destroyed item means she's being "appeased at the cost of the youngest." The word here is restitution. Dd2 owes dd1 a guitar, the same one she bought. The only question is how she's going to make that happen.


----------



## sunshine1793 (Oct 29, 2007)

"The word here is restitution. Dd2 owes dd1 a guitar, the same one she bought. The only question is how she's going to make that happen."

I really like this summary. If it were my situation, I think I would sit down with each girl separately and make that statement. I would ask for their opinions and feedback. How important is the trip to dd2? How soon does dd1 need the guitar replaced? What are dd2's feelings on giving up the trip to get dd1 the guitar back asap? How does dd1 feel about waiting until August while dd2 works to earn the money to replace it? How compassionate is each girl towards the other one?

I think if it would work between the girls, I would have have the camp money go to the guitar asap, have dd2 present it and apologize, and have dd1 forgive her. I would want the issue settled immediately: I would not want to let resentments brew over the summer. If dd1 was willing to be patient and wait, fine.

Either way, this is tough. Like pp's said though, life is hard. Some mistakes cost you big time - I think that in itself is a valuable lesson to learn early. Its not so much about punishment, just a prompt righting of wrongs. If you do something wrong, it is best to right the situation as quickly as possible.

I would be thrilled though, if dd1 would be gracious and willing to let dd2 go to the camping trip, and let dd2 work over the summer. I think grace would be a valuable lesson to speak to dd1 about, and I would encourage her to consider it.

What are your values?


----------



## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

Teaching a child the "right thing to do":
mom: you owe your sister $225. That's a lot of money. How will you come up with this money?
DD2: from you?
mom: I could lend you the money to replace your sister's guitar. You will have to do a lot of work to replace the money.

plain and simple, the money is yours. granted, you've got it earmarked, but all in all it's yours. at this juncture, DD2 has a big lesson to learn. You will be doing her a huge favor by helping her learn that as opposed to going to camp. Camp is camp. learning fairness with a sister, supporting both children, honoring DD1s hard work, these things are never planned, ya? This was no accidental breakage here, this was purposeful. so the restitution must be hard work. The act of destruction must be associated with a big PITA for the destroyer, or you'll have a monster on your hands. It's not punishment--no more than having to pay for the neighbor's window after accidentally breaking it. It's life--it's the way things are, and it's fair.
So, the kid owes $225. that's the way it is. That's a lot of allowances. That's a lot of missed outings with friends due to having no spending money. But be sure to keep her posted on the progress of how much is left to owe. It may take her over a year, but that would be fair too.
I'm also thinking: insurance? also ebay and craigslist for the exact same model. DD1 worked her buns off for a year to get her prize, a just reward. Now it's DD2's turn to do some work. Some families I know have taken a child to pawn some of their things to raise the money to replace something.....videos, ps2s, etc.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
For all those calling for dd#2 punishment- it sounds like there are a lot of personal experiences that are influencing thoughts on this. If DD2 has a history of breaking, destroying or being really jealous of dd1's stuff then Im sure OP would have mentioned something. I agree with another poster- natural consequence is the tension and anger in the house. She doesn't need to be punished!!! Of course, the right course of action may be skipping the trip to come up with the money but not because she "deserves" it. I feel just as badly for dd2 as for dd1. Hard hard situation









In my experience, parents tend to be willfully blind to this sort of behaviour.


----------



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcstar* 
How does one distinguish between "punishment" and "natural consequences" in this situation?

in any situation a natural consequence is something that happens on its own as a result of something else(eg: you drop your water on the floor, you get your feet wet) a punishment is something you would do to someone(eg: sent to room for spilling water)

i think youre thinking of logical consequence, which is just another way of saying punishment.

someone brought up the possibility of dd2 being jealous of dd1, im afraid that making her miss the trip would just breed more resentful feelings from dd2.

and dd1 is putting her mom in a hard place by demanding a brand new guitar when the money just isnt there. sure it seems only fair but shes old enough to work with her mom and old enough to be expected some more adultlike behaviour in this situation. shes got a lesson to learn in this too.

i think its fine to expect dd2 to pay her back but i dont think withholding a special trip is the way to do it.


----------



## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

My first instinct is to say use the camp money. But I think there are some other things to think about and discuss with your older dd, when she is cooled off a bit.

How about getting a cheap guitar with the promise that when she gets her nicer one back she can sell it and get some extra cash? DD2 would end up having to fund both, but it would mean she could go on the trip.

Have you talked with dd2 about the possibility of going for a very long time with no allowance and all her extra time doing chores to earn $ to pay back dd1? She may prefer to use the camp money rather than working really hard for a very long time. In that case I would have dd2 pay you back, and do what you can within your budget to get dd1 the guitar sooner.

There is so much to learn here for both kids - sometimes crappy things happen and we need to try and make the best decisons possible. It could have been a medical problem or a fire. Hopefully dd1 can grasp some maturity from within herself to think this through, and dd2 can as well. It's hard to think rationally at that age.


----------



## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Momma, this sucks. I'm so sorry.

I am so torn and they aren't even my babies!

I hesitate to cancel the camping trip because I wonder if the cost of losing that trip is more than the cost of the guitar kwim? It sounds like a milestone for DD#2 with a ripple effect that is maybe more valuable than the guitar.

Not that DD#2 should get off scot free with what she did, but I'm not sure canceling the camping trip is an equitable solution with an equivalent value.

I think your girls are old enough that you should engage them in brainstorming and problem solving because that will teach a valuable lesson to them both. Maybe they are willing to eat the cheapest of the cheap food for a few weeks to raise the money in the household budget. Maybe DD2 is willing to sell some of her toys in a garage sale.

Whatever you do, I say go for solutions that make them active participants in solving the problem because I think that will build your family up whereas punitive logical consequences such as no camping trip might exacerbate the current tension and result in further problems.

As you focus on DD2 to help her manage restitution, help DD1 manage her grief so she can come to a health place where she can forgive her sister, this is equally important imo.

Hope that helps. Good luck momma.

V


----------



## madelynlee7 (May 8, 2009)

I'm torn as well. I just can't bring myself to give up DD2's camping trip money, even as much as I want to fix things for DD1. The tension in the house is hard on me. DD1 (who has NOT hit DD2, only says that she wants to, which are 2 different things IMO) can't stand to be in the same room as DD2. The tension isn't bothering DD2 at all, she admitted she likes always being able to watch what she wants on TV because DD1 isn't there, or being able to play her music loud because DD1 isn't in the same room complaining. So the natural consequences are not getting to her.

I tried talking to both girls separately again. DD1 wants a new guitar, not a cheaper replacement, and she won't budge. DD2 just shrugs, says she didn't mean it and that she is sorry, but that she doesn't want to give up the camping trip. I also went over our budget again...there is no room to cut anything, we were already down to the bare minimum. I thought above having a yard sale, but we really don't have anything to sell to begin with. I already had a yard sale last year because money is already tight and I wanted to de-clutter our place.

Basically it comes down to if I give DD2 the money for the camping trip then I won't be able to buy DD1 a replacement guitar until Christmas. DD1 is not old enough (legally) to get a part-time job, so she would have to babysit for close to another year to save the money if she did it by herself. DD2 is too young to even babysit, and I don't always give the girls an allowance regularly so it would take DD2 even longer to save if she did it by herself. I still have a little time before the trip payment is due, so I can still weigh my options. Reading all your responses has helped, thank-you so much.


----------



## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

It kind of sounds like DD1 is the only one that's suffering here. Not that anyone should "suffer", but it sounds like she is, and DD2 is getting off scot-free, getting the TV to herself and getting everything she wants. So the question is, who's learning anything here? Is DD1? Is DD2? Who should be learning something out of this?

My vote is still use the camp money to replace the guitar. Or have the girls work out something with you, together, as a family.


----------



## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
Completely agreed. Her actions have consequences. And frankly I'm dubious about her story about "imitating" rock stars on TV. Surely she noticed that when they banged their guitars around, the guitars smashed? Plus, not only did she destroy her sister's most valued posession, she violated tons of boundaries by touching it without permission in the first place. It was a terrible thing to do to her sister and I think the punishment is justified.









:


----------



## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

s:

I"m not a mom (yet!) so you can take this with a grain (or more) of salt. This camping trip is a luxury for your DD2, not a necessity.

What if your DD2 had decided to smash the microwave, or something else that needed to be replaced immediately?

I really think that DD2 should have to miss the trip. There simply isn't money for her to go anymore. You've gone over the budget with DD2, so this should make sense to her. Also, it seems that DD2 isn't being outwordly remorseful to DD1. I can see how this wouldn't make DD1 feel very forgiving.

ETA: whichever you decide, I know it's not going to be fun for either of your girls; I just wanted to give you some hugs in advance. You seem like such a thoughtful mama-- I'm sure either way, it will work out for your dd's.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Sort of OT -- given how tight your financial situation is, you really should investigate how to get child support from the girl's father. He shouldn't be getting off scott free from his responsibilities -- his actions should have consequences too!

OK, back to the situation at hand. Some random observations that might start some additional brainstorming:
* Everyone here seems stuck with narrow thinking. You are only seeing 2 options, your older child is only seeing "make it right" and your younger child doesn't seem to be engaged at all.
* A 10 YO is old enough to earn money from neighbors. She can garden, clean houses, do laundry, do ironing. She might have to really hustle to get those sorts of jobs, but it can be done. Honestly, from your description of her, a little humility at having to do so might be a good thing. Also, with summer on the way there might be some mother's helpers options that open up. She could also help with a family business -- something that you and she could take on at home to make extra income for both of you. While she can't work in a company, she can earn money if she is creative and resourceful.
* I think you are over-valuing the camp experience. This might be the only time for this trip, but there could be other trips in the future.
* It sounds like both girls need to wake up a bit. Being angry is one thing, refusing to be in the room with the person is another. Wanting a replacement guitar is reasonable, demanding a new version when the one that was broken had been used (by her) seems unreasonable. On the other hand, the attitude you describe for your younger child would be intolerable to me.
* Once you get this particular situation solved, you probably want to go back and look at the relationship between the girls overall and work on that because I think it will get worse before it gets better and this sort of thing might crop up again.

I think that, in your shoes, I would insist that BOTH girls discuss the situation, face to face, politely. If I couldn't make that happen, I would enlist the help of a professional (school counselor, free clinic counselor, something like that) because that indicates a much deeper issue. I would try for the positive solution that younger child needs to earn the money to replace guitar by the end of the summer. Yes, that will be hard and yes it means that she will really have to ask around for work and do work that she might not like. And probably it will take many many hours over the summer. That seems much more fitting than simply taking the camp experience away. If she doesn't, then it might mean no new clothes for school or whatever you might spend money on at that point.

To shorten your older child's wait, you might investigate options for earning extra income yourself. I know this can be really hard depending on where you are and what you are already doing.

If you can, you might make paid work options open for both girls throughout the summer on a first come first serve option. That would again encourage younger child to work towards her obligation, but give your older child the option of getting some things for herself as well.


----------



## sunshine1793 (Oct 29, 2007)

Any updates, Mama? How are things going?


----------



## madelynlee7 (May 8, 2009)

Thank-you everyone for taking the time to respond







It helps a lot to be able to talk about this and to not be judged.

In regards to the father and child support, I really didn't want to talk about this, but since a few people have brought it up, I will address it. I don't know where the father is, and neither do the courts. A few years ago I sought assistance from a lawyer. Two separate private investigators have not been able to find him. He is not in the United States, Canada, Europe or anywhere else...kwim? No one knows where he is, and he doesn't have any relatives or family that anyone knows of, so I can't get help there, as much as I want and need it. It is really hard for sometimes, but I have come to accept it.

Now about DD2 working off the debt. I do want her to work, I know there is work she can do from the neighbors (besides babysitting) The only options to be a mother's helper are too far away, she get can't there by herself because I am at work. I expect her to work and pay me back for the guitar no matter what avenue I take, but the thing is it will take her a long time to pay me back, so even I don't give DD1 the trip money and DD2 works I won't be able to afford a new guitar for DD1 until Christmas.

The reason DD1 wants a new guitar is because she bought a BRAND new one, and it was only 1 month old when DD2 smashed it. She it still was in new condition, kwim? I also want to point out to the poster who said that it was rude for DD1 to not want to be in the same room as DD2, well at this point I am wanting to respect her feelings and not force her to do anything. She hasn't yelled at her sister (except for when it first happened) hasn't hit her, or otherwise been rude or mean or done anything like slamming doors etc so I think all in all she has handled herself very well, and I just want to let her express her anger since she isn't being in her sisters face.

I hope I don't sound rude or mean to anyone who replied, it is just that I am still really torn and so tired. I can't bring myself to make a decision. DD1 wants a replacement of the one that was broken, but DD2 doesn't want to miss this camp (I think she sees how much fun her sister had when she went) For more see my post a few above this. Again, thank-you for all the responses and encouragement.


----------



## Scottishduffy (Oct 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
* It sounds like both girls need to wake up a bit. Being angry is one thing, refusing to be in the room with the person is another.

I think that, in your shoes, I would insist that BOTH girls discuss the situation, face to face, politely. If I couldn't make that happen, I would enlist the help of a professional (school counselor, free clinic counselor, something like that) because that indicates a much deeper issue.
.

I disagree with the first part of the post i quoted. The older DD is feeling very hurt and angry, and has removed herself from the situation. I can understand this and believe it is responsible. The older DD has stated how angry she feels, and instead of staying around younger DD and perhaps feeling even more angry the older DD has removed herself. I would think the older DD is taking some time to herself, to deal with the anger, and sufficiently cope with her anger before socializing with the sister again. As adults we very commonly remove ourselves from situations and people that upset in order to have time to breathe and return at a later time with a calmer and more reasonable attitude. Perhaps the Older DD is just doing this. She is too upset to speak now, so removes herself so she will not say things she regrets to the sister.

I did this with my bro. I would just ignore him and not be around him until i had dealt with my anger and could reasonably speak to him again. If i had been forced to socialize with him after some misdeed it would have made my emotions even worse.

Later on when she seems to have cooled off and had time to think then i definitely think the two girls need to sit down for a chat. Older DD needs to express her hurt and feelings to younger DD, and the younger girl can express her remorse and feelings about what happened.

BTW, I fully support the use of the camp money for the guitar. Hopefully younger DD can go t the store herself (wit you of course) to shop for the new guitar. This could lead to really good teaching moments with younger DD.


----------



## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

No, no, no.

Sorry to be so passionate about this, but I was a "poor kid". DD2 gets to go to camp.

It's a separate issue.

But, she does have to pay for the guitar however long it takes. Life is like that, too.

There are lessons here for both girls. DD1 must learn that things, unfair things, happen, but that we ought to be gracious and patient and loving anyway. She will get her guitar back, but people are always more important than things. She needs to cool down and address dd2 respectfully. State her needs and her desires and ask dd2 what she is going to do to right this wrong. Problems cannot always be solved overnight. And that's okay.

DD2 needs to learn responsibility for her actions, and she must make right this wrong. She is now in debt to her older sister. Somehow she must make it right. Can she work FOR her sister to free the sister to work more? The retribution does not have to be a guitar.

I gotta go, but I hope that was at least something to think about.

But, please, the only thing that links this to camp is the money. I say dd2 goes.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
No, no, no.

Sorry to be so passionate about this, but I was a "poor kid". DD2 gets to go to camp.

It's a separate issue.

But, she does have to pay for the guitar however long it takes. Life is like that, too.

What if DD2 does go to the camp and then refuses afterward to pay for the guitar? From her attitude it sounds pretty likely. There is really no way to force her to do so.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

I think the camp money should go for the guitar.


----------



## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
No, no, no.

Sorry to be so passionate about this, but I was a "poor kid". DD2 gets to go to camp.

It's a separate issue.

But, she does have to pay for the guitar however long it takes. Life is like that, too.

There are lessons here for both girls. DD1 must learn that things, unfair things, happen, but that we ought to be gracious and patient and loving anyway. She will get her guitar back, but people are always more important than things. She needs to cool down and address dd2 respectfully. State her needs and her desires and ask dd2 what she is going to do to right this wrong. Problems cannot always be solved overnight. And that's okay.

DD2 needs to learn responsibility for her actions, and she must make right this wrong. She is now in debt to her older sister. Somehow she must make it right. Can she work FOR her sister to free the sister to work more? The retribution does not have to be a guitar.

I gotta go, but I hope that was at least something to think about.

But, please, the only thing that links this to camp is the money. I say dd2 goes.

I disagree with this. DD1 had a new guitar, DD2 broke it (and doesn't care, it seems). She is owed 1 new guitar ASAP. DD2 needs to pay for the new guitar, and the only feasible way is to give up her camp.


----------



## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I'm wondering how many people who think the camp is more important have a musical passion?

I am the younger sister, and while I never destroyed anything, I did stuff when I felt my sister had too many privileges that I deserved. Also, I now have a younger daughter, and I see how unfair the world seems to her. If she were standing before Solomon, she would definitely let the baby be cut in half to keep the other person from having it (biblical reference, not literal). AND, my mom was a younger sister who PEED in her sister's perfume bottle right before her sister went on a date. (There were many other stories of this sort.)

If a person has a musical passion, then their instrument can feel like part of them. It is not just a thing like a microwave.

I, personally, do not think the mom should work extra to pay to replace it. The daughter has a "resource" available to make reparations.

I think if I wrecked my friend's car, I would have to forgo a few things to make it right. That is not punishment; it is making amends. This is not about missing camp; it is about limited resources that DD2's actions have forced into redistribution. I personally do not see how the money going for the guitar is punishment. If she wrecked a neighbor's guitar, would you use the money immediately to replace it? Would you go to the neighbor and explain that they just have to accept a cheaper replacement or wait 7 months? This is NOT punishment; it is making amends.


----------



## Mamafreya (May 13, 2004)

Yeah, honestly after reading the OP's updated posts it's pretty obvious to me that dd2 smashed the guitar on purpose and doesn't seem to feel bad about it at all.

There is no way that my kid would be going to camp if she was showing that kind of attitude about something like that. At 10 years old she is old enough to be honest about why she smashed the guitar and also about her feelings of jealously or whatever.

If she did something like this to a friend's guitar and the parents wanted it to be replaced then the only choice the OP would have is to use the camp money. I don't think that this is that much different.

Also, I REALLY resented always being told that I was expected to be the mature one in the situation when one of my siblings broke something of mine. It's not fair to always expect the eldest child to show emotional maturity just because they are older. IMO, the oldest dd is handling this very well and I don't think it's wrong to expect an exact replacement. The OP's youngest dd isn't showing signs of remorse or guilt. She can say that she's sorry until she's blue in the face but her actions are saying another thing. No wonder dd1 is so upset.

My mom never saw the jealously (not saying the OP is like this) with my youngest brother. He was awful when he was younger (not anymore, he's grown up a lot and is a great teenager now) and she never saw it at all. It was so absurd that it was funny. He would lie and manipulate and get super jealous of all of his older siblings but my mom never saw it. She would always act super shocked when something happened like it came out of nowhere. We still tease her about it now and he's pretty embarrassed about it too. I think it's probably very normal to a degree but I know how unfair it is to be in dd1 shoes. I hope that it works out for both girls but at this point I really feel like dd2 needs to make amends somehow and it seems like the only option she has is to miss camp. I also think that having to face a pretty big disappointment isn't the end of the world when she has currently shown no remorse for the huge disappointment that she intentionally inflicted on her sister.


----------



## fresh_veggie (Jan 27, 2009)

Here with a musical passion.









DD2 is old enough to know that things that smash _will_ break. I learned at a _very_ young age not to touch my older brother's things. Because I'd have to pay for them if they were damaged.

Money goes for the guitar. I've been to camp, I've owned a guitar. Camp for DD2 would be a social thing for her anyway with girls she sees all the time. A girl who worked for an ENTIRE year - patiently, passionately, and stalwart - deserves what she's earned, IMHO. I think the lesson to learn here is very important, and by letting DD2 not take responsibility for her actions, it might set her up with that mentality and make things in the household even more difficult.

Tough situation, mama. Sorry







and wish you the best.


----------



## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fresh_veggie* 
Here with a musical passion.









DD2 is old enough to know that things that smash _will_ break. I learned at a _very_ young age not to touch my older brother's things. Because I'd have to pay for them if they were damaged.

Money goes for the guitar. I've been to camp, I've owned a guitar. Camp for DD2 would be a social thing for her anyway with girls she sees all the time. A girl who worked for an ENTIRE year - patiently, passionately, and stalwart - deserves what she's earned, IMHO. I think the lesson to learn here is very important, and by letting DD2 not take responsibility for her actions, it might set her up with that mentality and make things in the household even more difficult.

Tough situation, mama. Sorry







and wish you the best.

Yes. Remember, however many months it would take for DD2 to raise the money to pay for the new guitar, DD1 is left unable to practice, unable to improve, unable to share her passion.

I've had my instrument broken once. In my case it was an honest accident, but I still cried all day. I was able to borrow another while my instrument got repaired (I *had* to, I was in the University band).

Like I said before, DD1 has been left bereft, unable to practice, and probably also unable to channel her anger, loss, indignation into any sort of positive energy, for two weeks now. At fourteen, that's an EON.

From the perspective of an adult, missing a year of practice can be made up with dedicated effort. But from the perspective of a teenager, for DD1 to wait for DD2 to earn the money puts her back to square one musically.


----------



## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Speaking as a child who was once in a similar situation, I really think that DD2 should have to miss camp to replace her sister's guitar. From DD1's perspective, her sister willfully and maliciously (I do not for one second buy her explanation) broke something she spent the better part of a year earning. Thinking about how proud DD1 was probably playing that guitar after working so long for it and then finding it smashed on the floor? If breaking it was an accident, then okay, but leaving it for her sister to find? That is nasty, catty, spiteful behavior, and it needs to be nipped in the bud now if you ever want your DD's to have a good relationship. I might sound like I'm overreacting, but my sister pulled this to me all...the...time. It has affected my relationship with her to this day. And also with my mother. I honestly believe this is one issue that DD1 will remember for the rest of her life if it is not handled fairly, i.e. her getting the exact guitar she worked so hard for.

I like the analogy of a neighbor. If DD2 had broken the guitar of a neighbor there would be no question of it being replaced immediately with the exact same one. Why is this different OP?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean* 
Speaking as a child who was once in a similar situation, I really think that DD2 should have to miss camp to replace her sister's guitar. From DD1's perspective, her sister willfully and maliciously (I do not for one second buy her explanation) broke something she spent the better part of a year earning. Thinking about how proud DD1 was probably playing that guitar after working so long for it and then finding it smashed on the floor? If breaking it was an accident, then okay, but leaving it for her sister to find? That is nasty, catty, spiteful behavior, and it needs to be nipped in the bud now if you ever want your DD's to have a good relationship. I might sound like I'm overreacting, but my sister pulled this to me all...the...time. It has affected my relationship with her to this day. And also with my mother. I honestly believe this is one issue that DD1 will remember for the rest of her life if it is not handled fairly, i.e. her getting the exact guitar she worked so hard for.

I like the analogy of a neighbor. If DD2 had broken the guitar of a neighbor there would be no question of it being replaced immediately with the exact same one. Why is this different OP?

And if DD2 is anything like my sister, she is having a good sneer at DD1 behind OP's back for how the OP swallowed the "playing rockstar" story. My sister's needling me about how my mother always believed her lies was as bad as her actions.


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
No, no, no.

Sorry to be so passionate about this, but I was a "poor kid". DD2 gets to go to camp.

It's a separate issue.

But, she does have to pay for the guitar however long it takes. Life is like that, too.

There are lessons here for both girls. DD1 must learn that things, unfair things, happen, but that we ought to be gracious and patient and loving anyway. She will get her guitar back, but people are always more important than things. She needs to cool down and address dd2 respectfully. State her needs and her desires and ask dd2 what she is going to do to right this wrong. Problems cannot always be solved overnight. And that's okay.

DD2 needs to learn responsibility for her actions, and she must make right this wrong. She is now in debt to her older sister. Somehow she must make it right. Can she work FOR her sister to free the sister to work more? The retribution does not have to be a guitar.

I gotta go, but I hope that was at least something to think about.

But, please, the only thing that links this to camp is the money. I say dd2 goes.


I absolutely agree with this. There is no connection whatsoever between camp and a guitar. It is nothing more than a short-sighted punishment to dd2 to make her miss the camp, and this will inevitably lead to an even worse situation between the girls. Causing one child's resentment of their sibling to appease another child's resentment will not benefit either.

Actually, dd2 going to camp would possibly give dd1 time to cool off and not have to deal with her. And it will give dd2 the opportunity to be away from her comfort zone and "grow up" a little.

Of course dd2 will need to pay dd1 back somehow, but maybe that discussion should be tabled for a little while until dd1 cools off a little (so she has time to process the whole thing). In the meantime you could have some honest (and blame/guilt free) talks with dd2 about how hard dd1 worked for her guitar and why she is so upset. If you can help her see that WITHOUT the "why did you do it" conversation maybe she would be more willing to be involved in finding a solution. This isn't your problem to solve, it is your conflict to mediate. That will require a whole different mindset.

I DO find it interesting that most of the people calling for punishment (i.e. no camp) are older siblings who were slighted by younger siblings. It is amazing how these interactions colour our thoughts throughout life. If you can set up a relationship where they can problem-solve and work these things out NOW it will clearly impact their relationship throughout life. That is way more valuable than any guitar OR camp


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

From DD1's perspective, her sister willfully and maliciously (I do not for one second buy her explanation) broke something she spent the better part of a year earning. Thinking about how proud DD1 was probably playing that guitar after working so long for it and then finding it smashed on the floor? If breaking it was an accident, then okay, but leaving it for her sister to find? That is nasty, catty, spiteful behavior, and it needs to be nipped in the bud now if you ever want your DD's to have a good relationship.
But the child in question is 10. Nasty, catty, spiteful, malicious? Those are some hefty accusations to level at a 10 year old. Children of that age are notoriously short-sighted. Sure it was a not-nice thing to do, but keep in mind the age of the child. Sure she should know better, but it is more likely that is was just a poorly thought out impulse than an attempt to *actually* ruin her sister's guitar. Punishing her severely for acting like a 10 year old seems counterproductive if your aim is a healthy sibling relationship. In fact, it is quite likely that if the OP DOES choose to give dd1 the camp money it will make her feel guilty and awkward once she gets past the satisfaction of retribution.

There really is no winning and losing here, just making the best of a bad situation.


----------



## fresh_veggie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
I absolutely agree with this. There is no connection whatsoever between camp and a guitar. It is nothing more than a short-sighted punishment to dd2 to make her miss the camp, and this will inevitably lead to an even worse situation between the girls. Causing one child's resentment of their sibling to appease another child's resentment will not benefit either.

Actually, dd2 going to camp would possibly give dd1 time to cool off and not have to deal with her. And it will give dd2 the opportunity to be away from her comfort zone and "grow up" a little.

Of course dd2 will need to pay dd1 back somehow, but maybe that discussion should be tabled for a little while until dd1 cools off a little (so she has time to process the whole thing). In the meantime you could have some honest (and blame/guilt free) talks with dd2 about how hard dd1 worked for her guitar and why she is so upset. If you can help her see that WITHOUT the "why did you do it" conversation maybe she would be more willing to be involved in finding a solution. This isn't your problem to solve, it is your conflict to mediate. That will require a whole different mindset.

I DO find it interesting that most of the people calling for punishment (i.e. no camp) are older siblings who were slighted by younger siblings. It is amazing how these interactions colour our thoughts throughout life. If you can set up a relationship where they can problem-solve and work these things out NOW it will clearly impact their relationship throughout life. That is way more valuable than any guitar OR camp










I disagree somewhat with the first paragraph, but agree that the issues are separate as well. But the money for one or the other has to come from SOMEWHERE, and the fact is that there is only $200 set aside. I think this could be an important lesson on the value of property, and how if DD2 mistreats property, she will have to sacrifice in order to repay.

In reference to your last paragraph, I'm a youngest child here, calling for no camp for DD2 and for her to replace the guitar.


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

In reference to your last paragraph, I'm a youngest child here, calling for no camp for DD2 and for her to replace the guitar.
I said "most" not all







There have been a lot of, "I had a younger brother/sister" stories shared here, and a great many of them called for punishment. Just an observation.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
I said "most" not all







There have been a lot of, "I had a younger brother/sister" stories shared here, and a great many of them called for punishment. Just an observation.

No, a lot of them called for retribution. A very different thing. We also called for OP to open her eyes up to what's going on. That won't harm anyone, and may help a lot. Let's face it, anyone who thinks a 10 year old has NEVER lied to them is in denial - I know, I have an 11 yr old and a 15 yrd old.


----------



## MrsAprilMay (Jul 7, 2007)

What a hard situation for everyone.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an only child. I went to camp in 5th grade. It was fun and I have some great memories. Not many opportunities come up like this and it would be a shame for your younger DD to miss out on it because of one bad decision. If she has anything of value that is hers: TV, gaming console, toys, jewelry, ect. then maybe she can sell those things to get the money. Then she would still get the lesson about the value of money and the consequences of her actions without missing something so huge.

I asked DH about this. He is the 4th of 6 children and a drummer. He thinks that younger DD should have to miss camp. His main reason was that the older DD shouldn't have to be without her hard earned instrument for 7 months while the OP earns the money to replace it. And he also feels that it would take so long for the younger child to make the money that it may eventually get pushed to the back burner. The mother replacing the guitar won't be doing the younger child any favors in life. He had one of those "my brother broke my stuff and never paid to replace it" stories too. He also suggested that if the younger child were to miss camp that maybe she could work together with the older sister this summer to earn something for the whole family like a museum pass or a trip to the zoo. Maybe them working for a common goal will help to mend their relationship.


----------



## Mamafreya (May 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
No, a lot of them called for retribution. A very different thing. We also called for OP to open her eyes up to what's going on. That won't harm anyone, and may help a lot. Let's face it, anyone who thinks a 10 year old has NEVER lied to them is in denial - I know, I have an 11 yr old and a 15 yrd old.

Yep, I agree with this. There is a big difference between
punishment and retribution.

I personally think that the bigger issue here is why dd2 did what she did. It's a big deal to smash a guitar, like a major, huge deal. There is obviously something going on here that lead up to this. I think it would be very important for the OP to try to look at her daughters' relationship with a very critical eye. I seriously doubt that this came out of nowhere.

Either this sort of relationship dynamic between the sisters has been this way for a long time and it has finally reached a new level or... Something happened between them to have caused this action from dd2. It could just be dd1 getting the guitar but I suspect that there is a lot more to this story.


----------



## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Well, I'm another one of the people who thinks that the OP should use the money ear-marked for DD2's camping trip to replace the guitar. I'm also an eldest child whose younger brother broke things of hers.

However, I am not calling for punishment, simply reparation. ODD showed a lot of responsibility and maturity in working so hard for most of a year to save money to buy this particular guitar that she also put time and thought into choosing. She had it a month and through no fault of her own it was destroyed. She has already been two weeks without it, which is a long time when you're just starting to learn an instrument. I think she is well within her rights to want a replacement of the same new guitar she bought, now.

YDD sounds as if she's very jealous of ODD's accomplishment and likely set out to deliberately break the guitar. 10 is really too old not to realise what's going to happen if you smash something on the floor. I think the jealousy is something that needs to be addressed soon as if it's gotten to the stage of YDD deliberately breaking something so expensive and so obviously important to ODD it's pretty serious.

If the OP had more money to spare I would probably be suggesting a different method of reparation, e.g. YDD has to sell some of her games and toys to come up with the money. Either way I think it's really important that YDD makes the reparation herself - either by forgoing her camp and doing some work to pay her mother back, or by working to give the money to ODD, or by going without some of her prized possessions to raise the money for ODD's guitar.

I think it's a good idea to consider what your reaction would be if YDD had broken the guitar of one of her friends instead. Would you expect that child to wait for over a year for YDD to work and earn the money to pay it back?








It really is a tough situation.


----------



## NotAMama (Jul 26, 2003)

Well, I am childless, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I am an older sibling who watched her younger brother get away with murder and even still I feel resentment toward him at times (seems like at times he STILL gets away with murder!).

To me, the younger sister does not sound in the least bit sorry for what she did. In fact, if anything, she is getting rewarded for breaking the guitar by not having to share the tv or turn down her music. Right now, breaking that guitar has made her little world a pretty nice place to be for her. Sounds like the only one suffering any consequences at all for the younger sister's deliberate actions (and count me in with those that do not believe for one moment she didn't know what she was doing) is the older sister who gets to watch her beloved passion that she worked so hard and so long for destroyed and know that little sister may still get to go to camp and be rewarded for destroying big sister's passion.

I think the camp money needs to go for buying big sister a new guitar. She deserves it.


----------



## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm going to speak as a musician here, I play a musical instrument and when I need to play, I really need to play, it's not just an object, it's almost like an addiction really, it calls you, draws you closer and to not have that option to express yourself through the music is painful, it hurts, I'm not sure that I am explaining myself well enough but for DD1 to do without an instrument it's like it's killing her, the need and it is very much a need is there and needs to be expressed. Someone when i was at school damaged my instrument - it had to be sent away to mended for two weeks, it was torture, I literally pined for it. I can completely relate to DD1 need for an instrument and think that it should be achieved. DD2 seems to be 'bathing' in the aftermath a little here, she's enjoying having the power over her sister and won't be changing things for the better for her sister because at the moment they are good for her - she's getting what she wants here.

Now then, I am really torn about how DD2 may not be able to go on the camp - maybe that's abit harsh, for DD2 to miss out on camp means that there is still going to be resentment within the household but from dd2 and not dd1, maybe there are other options, sponsorship, rental, contacting the father (as mentioned before - but seems to be proving difficult) social security, insurance if all else fails maybe selling something of dd1's, renting her bedroom out for the summer to a student - speak to dd2 to see if she can come up with ideas for replacing the guitar - she needs to be involved in replacing it - which I'm sure you'll ensure.

If dd2 does go away on camp maybe you could take a few days holiday to spend and bond with dd1, make it special for her too, I think that you could turn the camp into a real learning experience - enhancing people skills, compassion etc which is important to your dd2 and dd1, this is a family situation and if I were in the same situation I would try and work it out together, no blaming or shaming but with reason, each child needs to have their say and needs to be listened too, but do try and get your dd2 to come up with a better answer than the previous excuse - it really just doesn't cut the mustard - even if she just says that she felt like it, it's better than the guitars and tv thing!!!

finally I just wanted to say - what a fantastic mum you are - there's no use beating yourself up about this, see if you can get some help financially and emotionally, it's not easy being a single parent with a tight financial situation - big hugs to you!!


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

This is a tough one.

I have to say, i don't think replacing a valuable item you broke deliberately because you "got carried away" (which sounds like a load to me! She's 10, not 4!) isn't a punishment, it's making reparation. A punishment would be that AFTER replacing the item SHE ruined she also was grounded for a year or whatever.

If she were younger i would accept a portion of the blame for lack of supervision (as cited by mum herself) but at 10!? At 10 i was letting myself in after school and starting dinner! At 10 i was left alone while my parents shopped if i didn't feel like going along. I wasn't in charge of other kids (i was the youngest) but i was perfectly capable of being in charge of myself. She didn't drop the guitar once by mistake, she repeatedly smashed it until it was destroyed beyond repair. That is not the "oops" of a distracted child. My kid has destroyed things of mine and i've had friends kids do so too, but they weren't 10, they were 2, 3, 4. LITTLE kids with impulse control and no foresight. Even with poor foresight after this girl hit the guitar once on the floor she could see the damage - are we saying maybe she thought it'd get LESS broken if she carried on!? Sorry, this was a willful act of destruction.

I am not implying she is nasty, or a brat, or a horrible person. IN THAT MOMENT she made selfish choices which she knew would hurt her sister. She might not have meant it to hurt as much as it has, she might have had no idea the EXTENT to which she was damaging things - the guitar, her relationship with her sister, potetially her summer camping trip, but she knew enough to choose not to do this. If she'd really not known how badly it would damage the guitar she c/would have stopped after one strike.

It is harsh for her to lose her summer camp over this single moment of maddness, of selfishness. It doesn't mean she is mad and selfish only that she was for those few moments when she did this. But it is these small moments we learn from and for. There is not point in having impulse control for 80% of the time. You would be in jail for the deeds committed in the other 20%. There is no point considering other people's feelings only whe you feel like it - that is considered sociopathy. So if she were my child she would pay (in the sense of redress not punishment) for this moment with her summer camp.


----------



## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

Missing camp is not punishment; it's making amends. Making her earn the money AND miss camp- that's punishment. Then she is having to pay double.


----------



## jojojojojo (Feb 4, 2009)

So DD2 is essentially being rewarded for her actions by being able to watch what she wants on TV and keeping the music turned up as loud as she wants -- and she blamed her actions on watching musicians on TV! No wonder she appears to feel no remorse.

It would seem to me that if it's the musicians on TV's "fault" that she broke her sister's guitar, perhaps she should be employed in more productive actions than watching even more TV and listening to loud music.

As for what to do about camp, it may be the only way right now to drive home to DD2 what smashing that guitar meant to DD1: DD1 worked hard for a long time and looked forward to the guitar, and now it's gone. DD2 didn't have to work, but she did look forward to the camping trip for a long time.

Has DD2 given any suggestions as to what she could do to make things better?


----------



## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
I absolutely agree with this. There is no connection whatsoever between camp and a guitar. It is nothing more than a short-sighted punishment to dd2 to make her miss the camp, and this will inevitably lead to an even worse situation between the girls. Causing one child's resentment of their sibling to appease another child's resentment will not benefit either.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. If this were a matter of a 5 dollar toy and a 5 dollar activity (both which the op could afford to give her DD's immediately), then I can understand your reasoning-- the OP would be making a choice to withhold one over the other.

But that is not the case here-- there simply isn't enough money to do both. It's a reality and a very natural consequence of the younger DD's actions. It sounds as though OP has really exhausted every other choice (including selling off her own belongings) to make both happen for her DD's, and she just can't.

OP, it occurred to me this morning, that you must have spent 6 months saving for this camping trip for DD2. I know it must be very important to you as well







s.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
I DO find it interesting that most of the people calling for punishment (i.e. no camp) are older siblings who were slighted by younger siblings. It is amazing how these interactions colour our thoughts throughout life. If you can set up a relationship where they can problem-solve and work these things out NOW it will clearly impact their relationship throughout life. That is way more valuable than any guitar OR camp









I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think that maybe this is one of those times where you have to 'save' DD2 from making a life changing mistake of discounting her older sisters feelings. I know people are saying that her sisters anger should be her 'natural consequence'; but I really do feel that *that* is too big a price to pay at 10 years old.

Hopefully you are able to help your DD2 make amends for her actions. Maybe this could be a lesson for your both your DD's- a lesson in empathy for your DD2 and forgiveness for your DD1.

Just to out myself-- I am an older sister with no resentment towards my younger brother or sister. I'm sure that we did break each others things when we were younger and I know we must have fought, but I truly cannot remember a single incident that sticks out in my mind. I really don't think my opinion is being colored by my childhood.


----------



## gretelmom (Jun 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
No, no, no.

Sorry to be so passionate about this, but I was a "poor kid". DD2 gets to go to camp.

It's a separate issue.


I was a poor kid, farm family in the 80s... And I disagree. It isn't a separate issue. I believe that lessons in childhood (esp when they are older like these kids) need to have consequences that reflect what would happen when a person becomes an adult. If I (as an adult) went to my neighbor's and broke his property, a judge in a court would make me replace it. Even if my money was for something really important, that's how court works. And I'd have to pay court fees!

What service are you doing a child by believing a totally unbelievable lie? Can she lie to her future spouse or employer like that with no consequences? No.

Money is money, it's all the same. And your DD2 has to replace the guitar and miss out on camp. This was her choice. She made it the moment she broke the guitar. Even if she wasn't aware that broken guitar=no camp, she knew there would be consequences.

I believe now you need to take all those guilty feelings inside, put on a strong face, and have confidence when you tell DD2 what has happened and will be happening. If she is upset about not camping, maybe she could try to talk to the adult in charge of the trip and ask for payment leniency? Not you talking to them, but she talking to them with you. You and I both know this probably won't help, but you never know. And if it works, it has to be HER that made it work, not you.

Parenting your children to be responsible people with EMPATHY for others is hard work, and you need to stop feeling (or showing your) guilt for making your children responsible.

IMHO.


----------



## elisent (May 30, 2006)

I would use the money for the camping trip to replace the guitar. I asked my kids and they all said it would be really tough but that using the camp money would be the fair thing to do.

Does DD2 have anything of value you could sell on craigslist to get money for the guitar? (Bike, dollhouse, video games, etc). If so, you could offer to list those things for sale so she could try to raise the money for her trip.


----------



## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

I believe that sometimes we need to protect children from certain natural consequences. I don't think that DD2 is able to see far enough ahead to realize/care that this could jeopardize her relationship with her sister even into adulthood. I think as a parent you are responsible for facilitating a meeting of the minds where DD2 can make adequate reparations to DD1.

I think considering what you would do if it were a neighbor is a good point. If it were my child and your child wasn't going to immediately replace the broken item I would have the option of taking you to small claims court. Your DD1 is not being given that opportunity. [Not that I think litigation is a good way to go all the time, but it is _there_.]

Honestly though if it were me I would have to borrow the money. I know some people can get themselves into a lot of trouble with credit card debt, but it seems like it might be worth it in this case. Basically, I would say that then DD2 can decide between borrowing the $200 _from you_ interest free and working to pay it back and therefore there will not be money to go to camp. Or she can borrow it from "the bank" which is charging X% interest. Do the math with her and show how this option may mean that she ultimately pays $300 if it takes her two years to earn the money, or whatever but that would mean that the money you have saved could pay for camp. [But for actual logistics you would charge the guitar]

She would also need to start working out how to make minimum monthly payment (generally at least $15) NOW. Like every day when she gets home from school and finishes homework she is out offering to weed gardens and line up work for throughout the summer. If in two weeks (when the camp money is due) she hasn't done that then IMO she's shown that camp really isn't that important to her and your camp-earmarked money should go towards paying for the guitar related credit card charge.

I am an oldest child but never had these issues with my brother.

ETA- I actually called to ask my mom about this and she sounded really worried about DD2. She doesn't believe there is anyway a cognitively normal 10yo wouldn't have known that the guitar would break and that she needs some help dealing with her feeling (jealousy?) towards her older sister. She thinks that missing camp would not be a good idea but also that she needs to replace the sister's guitar. Her suggestion was that I anonymously donate the money to the older DD. But I hadn't told her it was an "internet person" so she thought it was a friend of mine.

So really, think about what you would do if the $200 you have were gone. Or if you didn't have that saved up and camp wasn't an issue and your DD accidently broke a neighbor's window throwing a rock at it. WWYD?


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
But the child in question is 10. Nasty, catty, spiteful, malicious? Those are some hefty accusations to level at a 10 year old. Children of that age are notoriously short-sighted. Sure it was a not-nice thing to do, but keep in mind the age of the child.

I have an almost 10 year old and I work with troubled youth and adults. I assure you a 10 year old is capable of being all of those things and entirely capable of knowing what he/she should and shouldn't do AND has the impulse control to make the right choice. This is not a child of 2 or even 5. To say "she's too young to understand" is doing a major disservice to this child. Unless there are underlying cognitive or mental health issues (no evidence of that), an average 10 year old would be capable of thinking this one through and should be held to that standard. Children who's misdeed are dismissed "because they are too young to really understand" are the ones who grow up to be irresponsible teens and adults.

If she doesn't have the impulse control to not do this at 10, then there is a much bigger problem that the mother needs to address.


----------



## academama (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm going to say, I don't agree that your youngest is lying, hiding, or whatever about what happened. It's possible, certainly, but she could also be telling the truth. You know her well and if you feel that she probably didn't mean it, she probably didn't. 10, in some cases, is young enough not to think forward to a consequence.

Nonetheless, her response to the situation seems to me to call for some thought. Your oldest, in many ways, seems to be handling this very well. If she is not yelling at her sister, being mean to her, or otherwise acting out, that's pretty good for 14! She worked very hard to pay for that guitar. I think about how I would feel if someone who should know better wrecked my sewing machine, or something like that. Well, I'd be mad too.

The thing is that this is a learning opportunity for both girls. I tend to think that you should replace the guitar. But, whatever you decide to do, I think you ought to sit down with DD2 and talk about how much this hurt her big sister. Point out to her that DD1 is missing something from her life now that was important to her, and that it hurts even more to miss something when you know that it was taken away for no reason, by someone you love. And I would explain to her that sometimes we have to pay for our mistakes even if they were indeed mistakes.

I would also sit down with DD1 and tell her that you are proud of her for restraining her anger at her sister. Then I would ask her if she has any ideas for helping sort out the situation. She is 14; she is old enough to help you think about this! I would also tell her that the final decision is going to have to be yours...but I would absolutely stress the fact that you KNOW how upset she is, that you think she has the right to be that upset, and that you know how hard she worked to earn the money for her guitar. I think it goes a long way to show that you understand her position.

You might have already done these things, I don't know. But I think this is a good opportunity to instill enough awareness in DD2 of what she's done that she WILL be more aware of other people's belongings in the future and that she might feel more responsibility for her actions. Sometimes things like remorse don't come naturally; they're the result of frank and open discussion about consequences and feelings.

I certainly don't think that punishment is the answer. But by sending DD2 to camp, you're essentially inflicting a punishment on DD1--who didn't do anything to deserve it. And I think the resentment you might get in return would be really hard to take. In your position, I would replace the guitar.

(and then I might look for some other fun thing--lesser, but fun--that your DD2 could do over the summer--a free class somewhere, or something like that. You could even plan a camping weekend for the three of you at a local park or something like that, if you have the energy!)


----------



## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gretelmom* 
What service are you doing a child by believing a totally unbelievable lie?

How can we think we know these children and their needs better than their own mother? Yeesh, she's overwrought enough as it is over this terribly difficult situation. It is too easy to read our own experiences and people we know into the details of the situation that the OP presented, but nothing she could write here can convey the full reality of of what happened and who her children are, so as readers we're definitely not in the best place to judge.

OP, my heart breaks for the challenge you face in trying to make this right and do best. Best wishes to you.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I thought about this tread all day.

Here is a concern that hasn't been raised:

Really think about this carefully.

There is a balance in every family. The balance is felt more than seen, and lasting 'hurts' happen when a decision is made without everyone invested, committed, and on board with a solution to an interpersonal 'wrong'.

Somehow dd2 must find a way to connect in a heart-to-heart way to this problem. The best solution is one that begins with a true heartfelt sense of empathy and compassion from dd2 to her older sister.

That is the first and MOST IMPORTANT step you can take. What happens next will be easier to determine once this is done.

Now, if dd2 cannot do this, if she puts on a front of indifference or callousness or defensiveness about what she did, that tells me there is a simmering problem precluding her smashing the guitar--there is already a problem in the relationship and *nothing* you do in terms of punishment is likely to address this problem at all.

If you move ahead and make a decision without dd2 having opened up her heart and connected emotionally to helping restore the guitar to her sister, I would really fear the long term impact of taking away the camp money for the guitar. Not for dd2 but for dd1.

I was a very sensitive teenager. If my sister smashed my guitar, and I was paid back in this way, and then had to watch my sister go through her own sadness and grief at missing camp, it would definitely have "tainted" my love of music and enjoyment of the guitar. Even if I had not said so up front, or said so after the fact, the return of the guitar at this price would have been a bitter 'victory'. Fairness and justice know nothing about these feelings of the heart--if we love someone we will suffer when they suffer.

It isn't that using camp funds is wrong. It is that the only way this decision could be done and bring the girls closer together would be if dd2 herself, under her own heart feelings, wanted to give up the camp money to her sister. *This is a sacrifice that must come from dd2 in order for both girls to grow closer from this exchange--otherwise there is a real risk of further division, resentment, and simmering jealousy*.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

There are SO MANY good replies here, I think I tried quoting and got to 18 before I said fugghetaboutit LOLOL

So, I've read through the replies and here's my take on it.

1. DD1 worked hard to EARN this guitar. It's a treasured item for many reasons, the earning aspect, the patience aspect, the music aspect etc.

2. DD2 is responsible for destroying it, and is therefore responsible for making restitution. Immediately, or as close to it as possible.

Personally, because of the extensive cost, it is a very logical progression of thought for you to help her pay for it in order for it to be replaced asap. Then the 'debt' is to you and not DD1, which should help things considerably. Why don't you replace the guitar with the funds you have and she 'works it off' by doing extra chores around the house, maybe 5 extra a week, to 'pay down' the debt to you. Maybe she has things she could sell of hers to replace the money to you. The point is she needs to pay it back.

It's not an issue of 'she broke it now she can't go to camp'. THAT is punitive. However, she broke it, she has no means to repay it, so household funds are repaying it and thus her ability to afford camp is now in question...THAT is a natural consequence. What I hear from you is that if DD2 were somehow able to come up with the money for camp (selling some things of hers, raising money, otherwise earning it) you'd be ok with her going because it's important to you too. At the same time, who owns this problem? DD2 broke the item, SHE owns the problem that now arises from the funds having to be redirected to replace something she destroyed.

OP, I really want to encourage you to ensure you are rewarding your oldest's drive and ambition to save, be patient for rewards, succeed etc. by replacing this item as soon as possible with the funds you have. It sounds like you are really handling her emotions of this situation so well, lots of kudos for that BTW. It's really healthy to not be demanding she like or get along with her sister right now. She has the right to be furious, and it's up to her how long that will last. It's ok for her younger sister to know how angry she is, and if she's so angry that she can't be in the same room then that too is a natural consequence of breaking someone's prized possession.

I do think it would be worth the discussion to sit DD2 down and say hon, we have to replace this guitar NOW. We will use this money I've saved for camp for you, but then we'll have a hard time taking care of that expense. Do you want to sell some toys etc. to see if you can get that money back before the deadline? Or do you have another idea on how you can go to camp?

What a frustrating situation...but please don't disempower your oldest by shrugging off her loss and allowing DD2 to 'get away with it'. I think that, in the long run, will be MUCH more damaging to the self esteem of your oldest and the irresponsible behavior of your youngest than missing camp.

HTH


----------



## Astraia (Jan 1, 2009)

I've read through all the replies and this is a really tough decision.

In some ways, I think it comes down to personality. I was also a "poor" kid growing up in a family with 3 siblings, and there were some situations that were similar to this.

My brother would break things all.the.time and he really just has (even to this day) no impulse control, at all. He never ever meant these things maliciously.

I was the kid who would feel horrible whenever a punishment went through- so if I was your DD1, I would feel horrible, sickening guilt over my younger sister missing the camp she so desperately wanted.

If I was in the position where I would lose camp to replace the guitar, I'd agree to it instantly because I would feel bad and want to make amends, and wouldn't lose any sleep over the loss of my camp experience.

My youngest brother and my older sister, on the other hand, would feel righteous indignation if the guitar wasn't replaced and that house would be tense for a lonnnnng time. They would also see missing camp as a sign that they are unwanted, never get anything and my parents obviously loved the other kid better.

So - what are your DD's personalities? I think it plays a huge role in the decision making process. What would fix it, and what would make it worse, as far as personalities go.

Overall, though, I'd probably say DD2 should lose her camp experience


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I was the kid who would feel horrible whenever a punishment went through- so if I was your DD1, I would feel horrible, sickening guilt over my younger sister missing the camp she so desperately wanted.
Yep. This. My sister and I certainly fought but it would have 'spoiled it' for me if I was given a replacement guitar while she begged and cried and pleaded not to miss camp and then sat at home all that month sad and hurting. I mean, that would certainly put a huge crimp in my enjoyment of playing music, if not killed it entirely.

The more I think about this thread the more obvious it seems that the ONLY way you are going to avoid making the situation worse by using the camp money, is if your dd2 wholeheartedly understands and agrees this is fair and right and she wants to sacrifice this to pay back her sister. If she thinks in her heart this is fair she will handle her disappointment with a measure of grace....Because if she dosen't feel this way it is going to be a very miserable and tense household all.summer.long. and your dd1 may very well discover that getting back her guitar by her sister losing out on camp is like winning the battle but losing the war. Her satisfaction may be very short lived once the guitar is back in her hands and she has a miserable and sad sister on her hands for the the rest of the summer.

The crux of this whole situation is that your GIRLS must come to the right solution in their hearts and that will take trust. Your older dd should be able to extend that trust if your younger dd shows an open and willing heart to amend her mistake.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

I guess I just don't agree that it's an issue of the younger DD 'agreeing' to use the money this way. It wasn't a mutual decision to break the guitar. It was her decision. I don't hear the OP saying the older DD is torn or distraught at the idea of the younger DD making amends. I hear the OP saying her oldest is extremely (and justifiably) hurt and angry about this. I think this could present a serious block in their relationship between teen and mama if her right to have immediate reparations isn't recognized and validated with immediate action. I also think the wrong idea is enforced if the money is available for an 'unrequired' expense and not made available for the oldest to use as a replacement guitar.

Now, FWIW, I think it's reasonable for the OP to let DD1 make the decision if the OP wants to involve her in the process. But, if DD1 doesn't have any negative feelings associated with the idea of using the funds to replace the guitar (or even if she does and still wants to do it that way) then so be it.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I guess I just don't agree that it's an issue of the younger DD 'agreeing' to use the money this way. It wasn't a mutual decision to break the guitar.
But my point is that because dd1 didn't consent, her response was anger and resentment. Similarly, if dd2 misses camp without committing her heart to the fairness of this sacrifice, she will only harbor further anger and resentment.

If this were my family the most important result of this situation would be that 1) dd2 show in a tangible way that she cares about this loss and is ready and willing to make things right and get her sister another guitar, and 2) that dd1 accepts a sincere gesture of regret and concern from her sister and genuinely forgives her and co-operates in finding the best solution for restitution of the guitar. That may or may not involve dd2 missing camp--you won't know until step 1 and 2 occur.

I realize this involves more time and that time is limited in this situation--but it would be difficult for me as a parent to make a decision of this nature in the absence of active participation from all involved. It is not because of a lack of backbone or sense of fairness--it is because these are two big girls who are fast approaching a point in their lives when major changes will make it more and more difficult for them to connect in a meaningful way--they will be sisters for the rest of their lives, and learning how to connect and resolve this problem together is a perfect opportunity to get in touch with one another. I realize the mom cannot force either daughter to cooperate--but any decision in the absence of their participation is likely to engender more division and resentment.


----------



## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
But my point is that because dd1 didn't consent, her response was anger and resentment. Similarly, if dd2 misses camp without committing her heart to the fairness of this sacrifice, she will only harbor further anger and resentment.

I realize this involves more time and that time is limited in this situation--but it would be difficult for me as a parent to make a decision of this nature in the absence of active participation from all involved. It is not because of a lack of backbone or sense of fairness--it is because these are two big girls who are fast approaching a point in their lives when major changes will make it more and more difficult for them to connect in a meaningful way--they will be sisters for the rest of their lives, and learning how to connect and resolve this problem together is a perfect opportunity to get in touch with one another. I realize the mom cannot force either daughter to cooperate--but any decision in the absence of their participation is likely to engender more division and resentment.


I am one who believes the money being reallocated is the most obvious and best choice. However, I totally agree with the above. I don't know how the OP could help this come about, but I do think it's the only genuine solution.


----------



## Petronella (Aug 22, 2007)

I think the camp money should go towards the guitar. IMO, ten is plenty old enough to know what you're doing. I can't imagine DD smashing her sister's guitar at ten (uh, if she had a sister







).

OP, any updates? Have you made your decision yet?


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

YOU ARE A GOOD MOM!!! You are trying so hard to do the right thing by everyone.

Quote:

The tension isn't bothering DD2 at all, she admitted she likes always being able to watch what she wants on TV because DD1 isn't there. . . . DD2 just shrugs, says she didn't mean it and that she is sorry, but that she doesn't want to give up the camping trip.
My first response to her explanation of how she smashed the guitar would have been, "Oh, the TV made you do this. I cannot let you watch TV anymore." I would hold firm on that at least until the guitar was replaced or DD2 was well into a serious effort to earn the money for it. If necessary, I would move the TV into my room. DD2 can use the TV-free time to think about what she's done, rather than enjoy MORE TV now that she's gotten her sister out of the way!

The money you'd saved for camp is YOUR money, and it is up to you to decide how it should be spent; DD2 did nothing to earn it. The money DD1 spent on the guitar was HER money that she earned over many months of hard work. IMO, your deciding to spend your money on a guitar for DD1 rather than camp for DD2 is a reasonable consequence of DD2's extremely poor judgment.


----------



## crunchymamatobe (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madelynlee7* 
I know I have to give the trip money to DD1, I just don't know how to break it to DD2. It's like no matter what I do one of my girls will get hurt



















Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miasmamma* 
While DD2 will be hurt, she needs to understand that whether she meant it or not, there are consequences for touching and breaking her sister's things.

Yes. She will be hurt. But sometimes even adults do things that have upsetting consequences without meaning to and we still have to pay for them. I feel badly for both of your girls and I hope that you can get through this tough time without too much lasting damage.

You are doing great, mama.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Good post EnviroBecca


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Good post EnviroBecca

















: ITA!


----------



## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

I like the idea of a family meeting and discussing the ways DD2 can buy DD1 a new replacement guitar in the quickest manner possible. Some suggestions would be forgoing camp, selling some of her possessions to get the $$, doing odd jobs, etc. I think a time limit should be set for replacing the guitar. I also like the no tv idea, too. DD2 needs to make amends for what she did, accident or not (and it doesn't sound like much of an accident to me).

BTW, I'm an only child, so this has nothing to do with my past or current experiences!


----------



## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

I agree with EnviroBecca. It isn't fair that DD1 should have to make do with no guitar or an inferior acoustic version while DD2 goes to camp, consequence-free. I also don't agree that there needs to be any consensus between the two girls about what the consequences will be. DD2 did not earn the camp money, while DD1 worked very hard and saved responsibly to buy her own guitar.

I would replace DD1's guitar, and DD2 would not be going to camp this year with a full, gentle but firm explanation of why. Sometimes our actions have painful consequences that we didn't foresee, but that is a priceless lesson to learn. Ten years old is plenty old enough to know better than to even touch her sister's guitar without permission, let alone smash it into splinters because of something she saw on TV.

I hope you're able to reach a solution that works for your family.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

At the very least, I wouldn't send dd2 off to camp until she had a plan on paper as to how she is going to get her sister's guitar replaced.


----------



## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I thought about this tread all day.

Here is a concern that hasn't been raised:

Really think about this carefully.

There is a balance in every family. The balance is felt more than seen, and lasting 'hurts' happen when a decision is made without everyone invested, committed, and on board with a solution to an interpersonal 'wrong'.

Somehow dd2 must find a way to connect in a heart-to-heart way to this problem. The best solution is one that begins with a true heartfelt sense of empathy and compassion from dd2 to her older sister.

That is the first and MOST IMPORTANT step you can take. What happens next will be easier to determine once this is done.

Now, if dd2 cannot do this, if she puts on a front of indifference or callousness or defensiveness about what she did, that tells me there is a simmering problem precluding her smashing the guitar--there is already a problem in the relationship and *nothing* you do in terms of punishment is likely to address this problem at all.

If you move ahead and make a decision without dd2 having opened up her heart and connected emotionally to helping restore the guitar to her sister, I would really fear the long term impact of taking away the camp money for the guitar. Not for dd2 but for dd1.

I was a very sensitive teenager. If my sister smashed my guitar, and I was paid back in this way, and then had to watch my sister go through her own sadness and grief at missing camp, it would definitely have "tainted" my love of music and enjoyment of the guitar. Even if I had not said so up front, or said so after the fact, the return of the guitar at this price would have been a bitter 'victory'. Fairness and justice know nothing about these feelings of the heart--if we love someone we will suffer when they suffer.

It isn't that using camp funds is wrong. It is that the only way this decision could be done and bring the girls closer together would be if dd2 herself, under her own heart feelings, wanted to give up the camp money to her sister. *This is a sacrifice that must come from dd2 in order for both girls to grow closer from this exchange--otherwise there is a real risk of further division, resentment, and simmering jealousy*.

YES to this. The big problem here isn't camp vs guitar, it is that your dd's are not invested in solving the problem. It should not be YOUR problem, it is THEIR problem. Your dd2 needs to be involved in coming up with a solution. I would talk to her and tell her that since she broke the guitar (whether she meant to or not), she needs to fix the situation and help her sister feel better.

Tell her you've been brainstorming about it, going over the budget and trying to figure out how to help dd1, and the only thing you've been able to come up with is using the camp money. But you don't want to have to do that because you know how important it is to dd2. So you're asking her for help in brainstorming how to fix the situation.

Work with her on it. If she's not willing to brainstorm another solution, then she's making the decision to let you use the camp money. If she DOES really really work with you to come up with ideas, then you can support her in apologizing to her sister and presenting the potential solution. Then really sit with your dd2 and help her really hear what your dd1 is saying--WITHOUT interrupting or responding. If she needs to reply to defend herself, you should help her sit back and really hear how it made her sister feel..."yes, I know it was an accident, but it sounds like dd1 is still really hurt/disappointed/whatever."

Your DD needs to do this work, and find a solution with her sister. Not you. Your job is to support the 2 of them in really hearing each other out and brainstorming a way to rectify the situation here. If your dd2 is unwilling to do that work and really come to a place of trying to fix the situation, then she's choosing to have you use the camp money since that is the only solution that YOU can provide. Any other solution will have to come from dd2.

This way, you are not giving a punishment. You are making it dd2's decision to fix the solution another way, or to let you take care of it the only way you can see right now.


----------



## twinergy (Mar 30, 2008)

ITA with Carlyle. I believe that breaking the guitar could have been an accident. When you watch those videos they look like they have to put a lot of effort into breaking a guitar. Usually they are grown men with muscles flexed; a 10 year old may think she doesn't have enough strength to actually succeed. Of course we as adults know they are just being dramatic and a guitar is really very fragile. A 10 year old wouldn't necessarily know this. It's also plausible that she knew exactly what she was doing and acted out of jealousy. I don't know your dd2, but you mama do know her. Go with your own instinct here, if you think she is genuine than trust her.

What is bothering me is that dd2 is not stepping up and taking accountability for the situation. If you make the decision to take camp away from her she is not taking accountability and she will see it as a punishment. I think a more reasonable consequence would be for her to work to pay for the guitar, but if she chooses to forfeit camp she would still be involved in the solution to take a lesson from it. I think dd1 worked hard to get the guitar and dd2 needs to work for something herself to learn real respect for other people's belongings. It is possible that dd1 may feel better if she sees that dd2 isn't getting away without any consequences but action should be taken before dd2 goes to camp. I really feel this is the best way to ensure that dd2 doesn't do something like this again.

I was really struggling with the conflict between consequences for dd2 and dd1's feelings; so I talked to DH. He has one younger sister so I expected him to take the same stance most older siblings have: no camp. They practiced the "don't get even, get ahead" variety of competitiveness. They would escalate their battles and things got broken, people got hurt, they even did horrible things to each other's pets.
This is what he had to add&#8230;
dd1's expectation that dd2 miss camp is not reasonable, and just because there are worse ways she could be reacting doesn't mean she is reacting reasonably. dd1 can wait for a new guitar but dd2 can't wait to go to camp. If you take camp away from dd2 (it's not her decision but actually dd1's decision that you are enforcing) dd1 will have her guitar and dd2 goes without something equally important to her; this isn't a balanced outcome. dd2 will resent this and she won't learn the lesson of how hard people have to work to get things. He said if he were dd2 in this situation he would feel the need to get even and continue the cycle and just figure out some sneaky way to do it, maybe even break the next guitar. I think somebody else was talking about imbalance in the family, this is how DH interpreted how it might manifest. He also added that victims don't always get to choose retribution. I guess it's true but pretty harsh for dd1. He said if you could save some additional money to what dd2 earns to upgrade dd1's guitar as a reward for being patient she might be happier about this route. Also explain to dd1 how important the lesson to dd2 is to teach her how hard it is to actually work for something herself.

Some other things I thought of&#8230; maybe you, dd1 and dd2 could start saving to buy the new guitar, then dd2 could pay back the borrowed money. This way dd2 learns the value of work and dd1 gets her guitar much faster. Also, maybe this was mentioned, but I pay very well to have my yard mowed by the 11 year neighbor boy and if I had a dog I would pay even more not to have to clean up after them in the yard. Is dd2 crafty at all, maybe she could start an online business (I have heard of 10 year olds doing this) and sell some of her crafts. I have some ideas for some easy hand sewing /felt crafts that I would like to make but don't have time (PM me if she is up for it). Something else I just thought of is making natural lotions like this family business http://www.northernessence.com/ . Maybe some moms here have some other ideas for entrepreneurial endeavors. You have an opportunity here to teach dd2 a valuable lesson about work ethic and respecting other people's things that would be lost if you take camp away from her.


----------



## JollyGG (Oct 1, 2008)

To expand on the end of the last post.

I just paid a neighborhood boy $20 to mow my yard. A couple of weeks ago I paid a service $35 to clean up dog poop. I paid my babysitter $30 to watch my kids and I would have paid my daycare providers nephew for checking on my dogs, feeding them, watering them and walking them $20 had their mom let me.

My husband has been out of town for 5 months and I'm just not keeping up with things and I have a neighbor who delights in calling the city and complaining if I don't keep my yard up so I have had to pay neighborhood kids to do some stuff I don't have the time to keep on top of. I think it was money well spent.

The boy who mowed my lawn got $20 and he was there for 1-2 hours. He could easily have mowed 10 yard that week and earned $200 working less than 20 hours the whole week. He came door to door and handed out flyers and expressed a willingness to do anything you needed - mowing, weeding, landscaping, ect.


----------



## NatureMommy (May 3, 2002)

The money is earmarked, it should stay earmarked. How would you be trying to work this out if it had happened in 2 weeks, when the camp money is no longer a liquid asset. I fear taking the money and saying, "Sorry, you broke your sister's guiter, no camp for you," is not going to have the effect of making dd2 remorsful and regretful of her behavior. The girls need to be brought together to find a solution, other then the quick fix of spending the camp money.


----------



## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

So, what did you decide? What ended up happening?


----------



## Kates779 (Mar 29, 2007)

I agree that the money must go to DD1. I am the older of all my siblings and my sister was ALWAYS getting away with everything.
While I can't say that her getting away with lies and cheats and all other sorts of unacceptable behavior made her the way she is today, I can say that we are COMPLETELY different people. I am empathetic to a fault. I put everyone before myself and suffer silently. I tolerate more than I should and can be walked over. I do have a strong voice and I can be more outspoken, but typically it takes every ounce of anything I have to get a word out.
My sister makes choices based on herself first and herself only. Nothing matters than how something will affect her.

I guess when I say it like that then yes, this type of situation would teach a very valuable lesson. Behave poorly and it directly effects you. Right now it has not effected her at all and she has learned that she can do things like that... in a sense. kwim?

Also, I agree about the intentions. She saw them smash a guitar, she saw it break into a million pieces. Sounds like jealousy, to me. I would probably explain to her that her sister earned the money, that you now have to replace it, but this means not having the money for the trip. I might also suggest her doing a job every week to earn some cash and help her see how to save it... Because she is younger I might ask her what she would like to save for, you can cut out pictures, make a chart... like... a doll $10, a dollhouse $20, an art easel/set $30. Fill it in as she earns it and show her she can buy now or keep saving. At the end, she will learn that the hard work paid off. Unfortunately she lost the trip, but in the long run, the lesson is far more valuable. IMO of crouse.


----------



## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamafreya* 
Being the oldest of five kids, I think your oldest needs to have her guitar replaced. I never had something like a guitar get ruined growing up but my stuff constantly got broken or lost and most of the time my parents couldn't replace the things that were damaged. It really really sucks to have something that you love and worked hard to get ruined. I really think replacing the guitar is the only solution in this case.

I also think that your youngest dd had to have known that the guitar would've been damaged. It's not like they do that on tv and the guitar looks brand-new afterward, yk. Her story doesn't jive at all, sorry. If she were 5 or 6 then I would maybe consider it as being truthful but she's 10.....

The only other thing I could think of is selling something of your youngest daughters. Does she have anything that you could sell that might equal the cost of the guitar?

This.

I am 26 years old and can still vividly remember how incredibly unjust a decision my mother made was after my little brother ruined a lot of my precious books that I had worked all summer for.

Replace the guitar.


----------



## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

For me the bottom line is that one child deliberately destroyed her sisters prize possession and now one of them has to suffer for her actions.

Poverty sucks and nobody likes telling their kid they can't afford something. I know it was hard as a kid to hear that, especially when one of the other kids was getting something that was the reason there wasn't money left. With multiple kids and limited funds, people have to take turns. DD2's camping trip was a priority. Then she decided it would be cool to destroy the guitar. Stupid or malicious, it doesn't much matter, she made a willful decision and now someone who worked hard has been robbed of their reward. That changes the priorities. Just like a hospital bill or a family emergency would change the priorities, something else is now more important than her camping trip. DD1 needs to know that she matters. That her passion matters. That you, as her mother, will do what you can to protect her from people who want to take it from her.

If you can't focus on the need to make it okay for DD1, try this- what will serve DD2 better in the long run? Will she get more out of a camping trip or learning that you cannot hurt people with impunity? What will she get from the camping trip that is more valuable than the lesson that we are accountable for our actions and that actions have unforseen consequences? This may be a once in a lifetime opportunity too and I'd say it's more important than camp. Your entire family will feel the backlash of this if DD2 waltzes off to camp without things being made right. It will be an issue for years.

PS: DD2, who blamed tv for this mess is watching tv? Suppose she'd blamed Mythbusters for destroying your stove or car? Is this really a child who can be trusted with tv right now?


----------



## anastasia51 (Apr 30, 2005)

Someone higher up the thread said that they thought you should use the camp money to pay for a new guitar right away. But that then if DD2 wants to go to camp she needs to think of ways of making up the money to do it. I think that would be the best idea.

Perhaps once DD1 feels better about the whole thing she might even help DD2 to get the money to go to camp? So you all pull together to help DD fix things and both replace the guitar and go to camp, but if it isn't possible it isn't DD1 who loses out through no fault of her own.

Just a thought, but if you speak to someone involved in organising the camp, might they let you pay the $200 in a few smaller installments?


----------



## SilvanaRose (Feb 19, 2009)

I have to agree with other posters who have said that DD1 is the one suffering for this. It was not her fault that something she saved for got smashed and yet it seems that DD2 is being silently rewarded for her actions by getting the TV all to herself now. DD2 made a decision when she smashed the guitar and she needs to understand the ramifications of that choice.

I am an only child as well but I remember times when I was a child when I did something wrong, whether intentional or not, I paid the price for my actions. I understood what was going on and, as much grief as I felt for having to miss out on things, I knew that (unfortunately) it had to be done.

I also agree that it is not camp vs. guitar. It was the OP's money to begin with. DD1 saved and worked hard for a dream of hers only to have it ruined by her sister. That has got to hurt. It is now only fair that the money be used for a new guitar. DD2 has to understand that. She did make the decision. I missed out on the trip of a lifetime when I was 11 because of something I did wrong and it hurt ALOT, but I understand now that it was my choice.

DD2 unfortunately has to learn this very valuable lesson in life. If it were anyone elses property she would be in debt right away. Thats the way the law works. She needs to know that destroying property (accident or not) will result in her having to make sacrifices in order to pay. I dont see why her sister should have to wait at all to have something back that meant so much to her that SHE worked for. DD2 as far as I know did not work for the camping trip.

I have no kids (yet) but I know that my decision would be to use the money for the new guitar. It is only fair. Why reward a bad decision (even if it was a mistake) and punish someone who saved and worked very hard for something she loves. DD1 deserves to have her guitar back.


----------



## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

First, I think you have to decide WHOSE money this is. Is it YOUR money you are making a decision on or is is really a gift of money for dd2 that was going to be in the form of camp?

I ask because if it is really dd2's money, she needs to pay it back for the guitar (which would probably mean no camp). If it is YOUR money, then there is more of a question and the idea of punishment does come into it (by taking your money to fix the problem and dd2 ends up punished by not going to camp). It may sound like semantics, but its not. If the money is dd2's then you are a mediator and judge. If it is your money, then you are completely in charge. I personally think that ultimately, it is dd2's money and you are giving her a gift that was supposed to be in the form of camp. So, I'd "give" the money to dd2 and then work with her on what her options are and work with your dd1 as to what she is willing to work with (if anything).

Personally, I'd say "dd2, this is the money that I am giving you for camp. Here it is- yours. However, you owe your sister a guitar. How are you going to work this?" and then moderate a discussion. The most straight forward answer is dd2 owes the money for a guitar, she has it in her hand, she needs to pay her debt and does not have enough left over for camp. This is a very straightforward equation. And if dd1 is immovable on timeline, guitar, etc. this may be the only answer your dd2 has (which happens sometimes in real life- people are not flexible with payments and if you have the money you need to pay, well... you must pay it). If dd1 wants her guitar absolutely now, dd2 broke it and needs to pay for it and currently has the funds that was her monetary gift that was going to be camp. But the three of you may (or may not) be able to work something else out. Can dd2 sell something of hers? Would an empassioned plea from dd2 work? You could also talk to dd1 about what options she may have, and, if nothing else, recognising her sisters loss for her mistake as well.

By "giving" the money to dd2 that you were going to give her anyway in the form of camp, you are putting the responsibility on them and it is much more clear how camp=guitar owed and your only role was that you had given a money gift to dd2 that you had given to dd1 4 years ago. Though the most likely outcome is still "new guitar, no camp" it is not you who is imposing a decision from on high and have to "break it to dd2", she is involved in the decision (even if she has very few or no choices- sometimes that is life) and you are more like the collection agency who is making sure that those who are owed are being repaid according to their requirements (dd1's decision, as she is the one owed). It may sound semantical, but putting the actual cash in dd2's hand for the camp and telling her that she owes a debt first is important. She will be invested in the process if she has an ownership role, even if in the end you must be a bill collector and say she has no choice but to give money she owes.

I feel for you. This is hard. I also think something else is going on with dd2 as to why she would do this... And I also feel that settling this fairly between sisters with dd2 understanding her responsibility is more important than the experience of camp, even if camp was great. The two of them will share this experience and the relationship of sisters for life. Settling up fairly (even if the loss is painful, which it appears it will be for both of them) will overall have a powerful and positive impact, knowing that you will help them work through it and be fair and that they must treat eachother honestly.

Maybe you could take them camping yourself and dd1 could play her guitar around the campfire?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
With this situation, you are putting the responsibility on them. Though the most likely outcome is still "new guitar, no camp" it is not you who is imposing a decision from on high and have to "break it to dd2", you are more like the collection agency who is making sure that those who are owed are being repaid according to their requirements (dd1's decision, as she is the one owed).

I kind of doubt that the most likely outcome would still be "new guitar, no camp" judging by the attitude displayed by DD2 thus far.


----------



## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I kind of doubt that the most likely outcome would still be "new guitar, no camp" judging by the attitude displayed by DD2 thus far.

Well, it sure seems like it will be one of those decisions that is not a decision. If you have an outstanding debt to pay, like a long overdue bill, and you get back a big tax refund, if you decide to take a vacation to Hawaii, you end up being sued, judges ordering money taken from your paycheck or savings, things repossessed, or going bakrupt because you had money that you did not spend paying what you owed. It is a decision, but anything less than paying your debt is a bad one with much more uncertain, painful and long lasting consequences, so there is really only one option.

If dd1 wants her money now, dd2 will de facto end up without a "choice" per se, but she will feel "her money" going to repay her debt because she will be active in trying to find another solution and will very directly feel why and how she is missing out on camp. If you want to play out the scenario, mom is bill collector and if dd2 refuses and says "screw it I'm going to camp" then I guess mom must start repossessing things to sell or deny her in the near future make up $200 ASAP... And dd2 will become supremely unpopular with dd1 (which should be explained to her). Mom could even have grounds to over-rule that decision by "freezing dd2's assets" until the debt is paid (which would mean no camp because she couldn't spend the money to pay for it). The $ is dd2's, but like adults, our money is sometimes not really ours to do what we want with, especially when we have a large, outstanding debt.

Really this is a kid version of how the world works. Set it up that way and the answers and options we as adults have are the same.

This is how the world works.


----------



## SilvanaRose (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
First, I think you have to decide WHOSE money this is. Is it YOUR money you are making a decision on or is is really a gift of money for dd2 that was going to be in the form of camp?

I ask because if it is really dd2's money, she needs to pay it back for the guitar (which would probably mean no camp). If it is YOUR money, then there is more of a question and the idea of punishment does come into it (by taking your money to fix the problem and dd2 ends up punished by not going to camp). It may sound like semantics, but its not. If the money is dd2's then you are a mediator and judge. If it is your money, then you are completely in charge. I personally think that ultimately, it is dd2's money and you are giving her a gift that was supposed to be in the form of camp. So, I'd "give" the money to dd2 and then work with her on what her options are and work with your dd1 as to what she is willing to work with (if anything).

Personally, I'd say "dd2, this is the money that I am giving you for camp. Here it is- yours. However, you owe your sister a guitar. How are you going to work this?" and then moderate a discussion. The most straight forward answer is dd2 owes the money for a guitar, she has it in her hand, she needs to pay her debt and does not have enough left over for camp. This is a very straightforward equation. And if dd1 is immovable on timeline, guitar, etc. this may be the only answer your dd2 has (which happens sometimes in real life- people are not flexible with payments and if you have the money you need to pay, well... you must pay it). If dd1 wants her guitar absolutely now, dd2 broke it and needs to pay for it and currently has the funds that was her monetary gift that was going to be camp. But the three of you may (or may not) be able to work something else out. Can dd2 sell something of hers? Would an empassioned plea from dd2 work? You could also talk to dd1 about what options she may have, and, if nothing else, recognising her sisters loss for her mistake as well.

By "giving" the money to dd2 that you were going to give her anyway in the form of camp, you are putting the responsibility on them and it is much more clear how camp=guitar owed and your only role was that you had given a money gift to dd2 that you had given to dd1 4 years ago. Though the most likely outcome is still "new guitar, no camp" it is not you who is imposing a decision from on high and have to "break it to dd2", she is involved in the decision (even if she has very few or no choices- sometimes that is life) and you are more like the collection agency who is making sure that those who are owed are being repaid according to their requirements (dd1's decision, as she is the one owed). *It may sound semantical, but putting the actual cash in dd2's hand for the camp and telling her that she owes a debt first is important. She will be invested in the process if she has an ownership role, even if in the end you must be a bill collector and say she has no choice but to give money she owes.*

I feel for you. This is hard. I also think something else is going on with dd2 as to why she would do this... And I also feel that settling this fairly between sisters with dd2 understanding her responsibility is more important than the experience of camp, even if camp was great. The two of them will share this experience and the relationship of sisters for life. Settling up fairly (even if the loss is painful, which it appears it will be for both of them) will overall have a powerful and positive impact, knowing that you will help them work through it and be fair and that they must treat eachother honestly.

Maybe you could take them camping yourself and dd1 could play her guitar around the campfire?

I could actually see this working quite well to get the point across. To DD1 it will seem fair and just. DD2 may take it rather harsh...but that is life and she needs to understand that this is the way things work. She does owe the money, that is a fact, and by giving her what she perceives as choice in doing the honest thing might serve well in her future decisions. She may be resentful but ultimately she will know that it is the right thing to do.


----------



## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SilvanaRose* 
She may be resentful but ultimately she will know that it is the right thing to do.

Or not, and she goes to camp, and DD1 is out one guitar.

If the OP really decides to go this route, she needs to be sure she's okay with whatever DD2 decides. If not, then she may as well just give the money to DD1 outright.


----------



## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

But mom is the ultimate enforcer. If you owe a debt and choose not to pay, there are reprocussions and methods of collection or freezing if the debt is not paid (by the debtor choosing not to pay). Giving the money to dd2 does not leave mom powerless. If she chooses, she can "give" the money to dd2 and then flat out require she pay dd1 without allowing other options (I mean, if you have debt, a judge can freeze your accounts or take it from your assets, basically forcing you to pay). But it is dd2 being required to pay (and therefore no camp because she doesn't have any left after the debt is paid) vs mom just giving dd1 the money without including the girls in the process. It may "look" the same in outcome and mom setting the ground rules, but the implications, angle and emotions are quite different.

Just saying that you can get a very "real world" scenario here and dd2 has the opportunity to be involved and see the reasoning and make amends (which wouldn't come from her if mom just decided and doled out the money... dd2 would just suffer for her wrong without really getting the chance at making it right).

And who knows? At best, the girls work out an alternate deal that gets them both what they want (maybe mom has some ideas for them to consider). At worst, mom gives the money to dd2, they can't work out a deal and bill collector mom enforces the rules of debt and compels dd2 to pay now and therefore no money is left for camp and everyone learns a lesson. If the mom wants to be more flexible with dd2, she can open up dd2's options and allow her to choose not to pay, but then start repossessing/garnering/freezing and let dd2 experience the social and emotional consequences as well as the loss of control in what gets "repossessed". But mom does have legitimate basis for both these options that hold true to a role of enforcer and moderator and would illustrate how this works in the real world and why.

She could let them know going in... "Here is the money dd2 (blah, blah). You owe a debt to your sister. What will you do? Is there a deal you can work out? If not, the debt MUST be paid FIRST, BEFORE you try to pay for camp because before you can spend more money, you must pay your debts. It is the law for adults and it is what is responsible, fair and just and that is how we treat eachother in this house."

Its different to have the money in your hand, know what it was for, and give it up (even if you don't have much of a choice). It is also different getting the money from the actual person who owes it to you (even if they were forced to do it).


----------



## kkar (May 22, 2005)

And again, it's not as if the camp is a "once in a life time opportunity." There are more summers to come, and other camps she can attend after the debt is paid. It just means that camp is "delayed" for a bit until the guitar can be paid for.

I know it is a hard decision, but considering the circumstances, I just don't think you're going to find a resolution that makes everyone happy. I'm all for gentle discipline, but DD2 is thus far showing no remorse, and even feeling rewarded by her behavior. I don't think she'll agree to loose out on camp at this point because she doesn't seem willing to admit that she's in the wrong. Additionally, I think it will be easier for her to learn the lesson of personal responsibility now, rather than when she's an adult.


----------



## SilvanaRose (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
But mom is the ultimate enforcer. If you owe a debt and choose not to pay, there are reprocussions and methods of collection or freezing if the debt is not paid (by the debtor choosing not to pay). Giving the money to dd2 does not leave mom powerless. If she chooses, she can "give" the money to dd2 and then flat out require she pay dd1 without allowing other options (I mean, if you have debt, a judge can freeze your accounts or take it from your assets, basically forcing you to pay). But it is dd2 being required to pay (and therefore no camp because she doesn't have any left after the debt is paid) vs mom just giving dd1 the money without including the girls in the process. It may "look" the same in outcome and mom setting the ground rules, but the implications, angle and emotions are quite different.

Just saying that you can get a very "real world" scenario here and dd2 has the opportunity to be involved and see the reasoning and make amends (which wouldn't come from her if mom just decided and doled out the money... dd2 would just suffer for her wrong without really getting the chance at making it right).

And who knows? At best, the girls work out an alternate deal that gets them both what they want (maybe mom has some ideas for them to consider). At worst, mom gives the money to dd2, they can't work out a deal and bill collector mom enforces the rules of debt and compels dd2 to pay now and therefore no money is left for camp and everyone learns a lesson. If the mom wants to be more flexible with dd2, she can open up dd2's options and allow her to choose not to pay, but then start repossessing/garnering/freezing and let dd2 experience the social and emotional consequences as well as the loss of control in what gets "repossessed". But mom does have legitimate basis for both these options that hold true to a role of enforcer and moderator and would illustrate how this works in the real world and why.

She could let them know going in... "Here is the money dd2 (blah, blah). You owe a debt to your sister. What will you do? Is there a deal you can work out? If not, the debt MUST be paid FIRST, BEFORE you try to pay for camp because before you can spend more money, you must pay your debts. It is the law for adults and it is what is responsible, fair and just and that is how we treat eachother in this house."

Its different to have the money in your hand, know what it was for, and give it up (even if you don't have much of a choice). It is also different getting the money from the actual person who owes it to you (even if they were forced to do it).









: I absolutely agree with this. Very well put.


----------



## chambom (Dec 11, 2007)

Ok, I've been thinking about this today...

I think the money for camp is circumstantial. What if this happened two months from now and DD2 had already gone to camp? I don't think that is a natural consequence.

I think the biggest natural consequence for DD2 is the hard work she will have to do to pay her sister back and also the change in her relationship with her sister. There will be a lack of trust for a long time.

Though it sucks for DD1 to have to wait for a new guitar, there is also a lesson there for her. Not everything in life can be fixed immediately.

If camp for DD2 was a yearly, every summer camp, then I would think of taking it away. Then it is something that is always there to let her go or not based on her behavior, but not if it is a once in a childhood experience.

I do think she should try to sell anything she has that could help her raise money- garage sale season is here.

Good luck with your decision.


----------



## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

Just to be clear, I don't believe that having to replace the guitar can be considered a punishment of DD2. It is just what we all have to do when we damage someone else's property.

So, what I'm a little confused about is what IS her actual consequence for handling property that she shouldn't have been touching? It seems merely replacing the guitar alone is not sufficient (as that is only basic restitution). In addition, if the camp money is not used for a new guitar, what is DD2's consequence for depriving her sister of the use of the guitar for more than half a year?


----------



## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

The tension isn't bothering DD2 at all, she admitted she likes always being able to watch what she wants on TV because DD1 isn't there, or being able to play her music loud because DD1 isn't in the same room complaining. So the natural consequences are not getting to her.
I think the answer is in here. Our children let us know what works with them, based on their age and personality.

Beyond that, there is the issue of money. The family cannot afford to replace the guitar and send a child to camp. Yes, DD2 is going to be upset but the real life consequence of destruction is replacement. If this guitar had belonged to a friend, there would be no question that it had to be replaced with an identical item and quickly.

Lastly, if you do decide to spend the money on camp, what are the odds that DD2 will do the work to earn the money without you hounding her? Has DD2 taken any steps to make amends? If not, that's important to factor in.


----------



## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

How are you, OP? What have you decided?


----------



## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Yes, I'm curious what the decision was, as well.

As a only-child musician, I would replace dd1's guitar and have dd2 earn the money back.

As a teenager I was caught shoplifting - my parents paid the businesses back and boy did I work my tail off that year to pay *them* back. One business required I work it off from them - after I paid it off they hired me to continue the job (cleaning windows) and after the business changed hands the new owner hired me as a clerk there - my first "real" job, taxes and everything! I learned extremely valuable lessons at that time - both of forgiveness from my parents and the business owners, restitution, hard work, and, most of all, the love extended to me that I wasn't simply a shoplifter but a kid who'd made some dumb decisions and could grow up and learn from them.

I agree with the posters that say there's something else going on - jealousy, anger? With me I know there was "stuff" that needing dealing with - why does a kid go around stealing *books* of all things...especially when I could afford them (I had babysitting jobs) and there were these things called libraries around? Absolutely that needs to be addressed. At the same time, the fact is, she smashed a guitar. Like others have said, the money is mom's - yeah, it's earmarked for a special trip, but it's still moms. I would loan it to dd2 with a payment plan drawn up by her about how she's going to earn the money back (no interest) and then replace dd1's guitar.


----------



## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rico'sAlice* 
So really, think about what you would do if the $200 you have were gone. Or if you didn't have that saved up and camp wasn't an issue and your DD accidentally broke a neighbor's window throwing a rock at it. WWYD?

I think this question may really help you come up with some different ideas as you seem stuck right now.

I will say that your last post about DD2 attitude is appalling to me. She is saying she is sorry but she is certainly not acting like it. Whatever you decide to do with the money that was earmarked for her camping trip, she has to start making a plan (probably with your help) to repay DD1 and start working on it immediately. Yes, it can be tough to find odd jobs, but with a little initiative she can do it. My youngest brother did odd jobs (mowing, cleaning, etc.) for several people in the summers to earn money at that age. I really think this is the first thing you need to address as she can't sit around shrugging her shoulders and continue as if nothing has happened.

I don't have kids yet, but I do think presenting it to her as she can come up with a plan to repay in a reasonable (for a 10 year old) amount of time and start working on it immediately and show that to you before you have to pay for camp or the money set aside for camp can go for the guitar now. Or if you are willing/able as another poster to suggested to charge the guitar and have your DD2 pay back with interest, I would consider doing that as well so DD2 can still go to camp. Again, back to the question I quoted, WWYD if this had happened with a neighbor who demanded DD2 replace it immediately and there was no money set aside for camp?

And I also agree with those who posted about needing to get DD2 emotionally involved. They said it better than I did, but again, no more of this mouthing "I'm sorry" but not doing anything about it.


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

I also think that DD2 needs to learn a valuable lesson.

That would be giving up her trip to buy her sister a new guitar.


----------



## Jeanerbee (Apr 22, 2009)

I haven't read through all replies to know if this was suggested already, but rather than having DD2 skip camp and still be responsible to replace what she broke, does she have anything of value that she could possibly sell to come up with the funds? Even if it's having a yardsale of items or craigslisting some things.... that would be a logical consequence and she'd be earning money to replace it without having to miss camp, or the problem with job availability. Just a though =).


----------



## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

I second trying wishuponahero.com

Not sure if this has been recommended, but is there anyway you could talk to the people who run the camp and see if there is either a scholarship program or a way you could make payments over time?

I agree that DD2 needs to get her sister a new guitar.

I also think it seems overly harsh, and totally unrelated, to make her miss a once in a life time experience of going to camp - especially if she doesn't get to do many things like this.

Usually, groups working with kids don't want to see any kid left out and will work to make sure everyone can go.


----------



## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

I would buy the guitar. DD1 worked hard and saved up for it. Unless dd2 can earn the money to replace it, I would say use the camp money to buy another one.

The camping trip will be over in a weekend... dd1 could use the guitar daily for a long time to come.


----------



## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes for anything, OP! I'm really sorry that this is happening to your family. I have no advice or thoughts that haven't been covered, but I did want to add that as I read through your posts, I am struck by how much you want to do the right thing, and how impressive that is to me. I can tell how thoughtful you are being with this decision. No matter what decision you make, if you are anything like me and most of my mother friends, you will always wonder if it was the right one. You sound like a loving, caring, committed mom, and that's what matters. We do our best with what we have at the time, and grace fills in the rest. If your heart is in the right place, and you make your decision out of love and selflessness for your girls, it will all come out right in the end.

Let us know how things are going, if you get a chance!


----------



## bntamin (Mar 14, 2008)

Wow, you have some really tough choices to make. But you're a mom who is so devoted to her girls and truly wants the best for them. With that kind of attitude and priorities, even if you make mistakes your kids will know that you were there for them and did your best.

I just wanted to add that I think DD2 should be the one racking her brain to figure out how to replace the guitar, not you by yourself. Her indifference (whether it was on purpose or not) is a problem. She needs to feel the same sense of urgency and responsibility you do to ease her older sister's pain and, as another poster put it, make amends.

Maybe if you pose this challenge, "You MUST come up with an adequate plan to replace the guitar--so get thinking with me! If you can't, then I will have to make a decision for you (i.e. use the camp money)." Get her involved in the solution--not just waiting around for mom's final ruling! Even if you come to the realization that the ONLY fair solution is to use the camp money, at least she went through the reasoning process with you and knows that all options were exhausted. It will still hurt, but maybe the anger will be less because she was engaged in the decision making.

Sorry, i don't have older kids so my advice could be completely bogus. Hoping everything turns out fine for you and your girls...


----------



## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

This is one crappy situation mama.







I haven't read all the posts but this is my take on it.

I'm trying to put myself in the place of both of your daughters. Either way it will be a situation that neither of them will ever forget, and either way one of them will be very upset. But it comes down to this - If the guitar is replaced it will mean so much to your DD1. Your DD2 will be furious and sad, but will (hopefully) learn an important lesson about touching/damaging other people's property. If the guitar is not replaced then your DD1 will be heartbroken and resentful and dissapointed (in both her sister and mother), and both of your DDs will learn that DD2 can walk all over DD1's stuff without consequence. Which message do you want to send?

I think you should approach this the way you would if it was a neighbor/friend's guitar that was broken. In the real world, if you break something, you replace it. If that means you have to do extra work or give up a planned trip, then that's what you have to do. Even if it was an accident. Even if it means giving up something you were REALLY looking forward to. It is not a punishment, it is making amends, and it is a fact of life that we all have to deal with at some point or another.

I would frame it this way. Your DD2 has to replace the guitar in a timely manner (2 weeks) and she is responsible for coming up with a way to do so. She has $200 from her camp money fund and she also has the option to work odd jobs. If in 2 weeks she has enough money to replace the guitar AND go to camp, then she should be allowed to. If she doesn't then she will have to pay for her responsibility to her sister before she can spend the money on herself. If this results in her missing camp, then so be it.


----------



## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

I don't blame your older DD one bit for being angry. She worked hard to save the money for that guitar. Her sister broke it while supposedly acting out something she saw on TV and the only thing that happened is that younger DD gets unlimited access to the TV and can play the radio as loud as she wants! Next time the younger DD is tempted to break something of her sisters, you can bet that she will look back on this experience and think, "Yeah, nothing happened, it was actually kinda nice!!"


----------



## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *camracrazy* 
Next time the younger DD is tempted to break something of her sisters, you can bet that she will look back on this experience and think, "Yeah, nothing happened, it was actually kinda nice!!"

Yeah, but something motivated dd2 to do it in the first place. That kind of destruction comes with a motive and that motive, whether it be jealousy, anger, frustration, stupidity, whatever, needs to be dealt with. Certainly it was an immature decision but there was definitely some sort of big feelings to cause that large-scale of damage. That needs to be dealt with and hopefully processed and solved, in addition to whatever decision mom makes.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

OP, any update? I hope you were able to come up with a solution, this is a very tough situation.

My two DDs are around the same age as yours, so you've been on my mind.


----------



## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

i wonder if this even has an ending....


----------

