# Where is circumcision in your hierarchy of parenting decisions?



## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

I was leading a LLL meeting a few weeks ago, and I brought up the topic of how what you PLAN to do before your baby is born may be very different from what happens once baby is actually here. I was referring to things such as "I planned to cloth diaper, but baby is extremely high needs and I couldn't keep up with the laundry, something had to give" or "I planned on co-sleeping, but baby had severe reflux and needed to sleep on a wedge" (that second example is true for me, my first could not lay flat and could not side-lie nurse, so co-sleeping wasn't possible).

But the topic got me thinking...I told the moms there that you need to be aware of what parenting choices are the most important to you, kind of a "rack and stack" so if you have to re-evaluate anything for any reason, you already know which ones are easily negotiable. Maybe making your own home-made-from-scratch baby food suddenly seems like an enormous task, and buying jars of food is exactly the break you need to keep up your cloth diapering, and you have placed the importance of cloth diapers over the importance of home-made foods. Knowing that before hand can make the decision easier, less mama-guilt involved.

You get the idea.

I've been trying to figure out where my hierarchy is. And I think I'm surprising myself a little with my self-analysis. [caveat...I did not bring up circumcision at the meeting as it's outside the topics I'm allowed to discuss]

I think that leaving a baby intact falls at the top of my list.

I would rather formula feed my baby than circumcise. The way I see it, there is an "acceptable" alternative to breastmilk, but there is no alternative to a foreskin. Formula could potentially lead to health issues later in life, and I'm not downplaying those at all, but I think the health issues of circumcision are hugely ignored. Sexual health is health, after all. It's a big part of life.

I used to think that breastfeeding was really high on my list of important things, and it is high, but I think I put intactness above it. I also think I put correct use of car seats above it. I'd rather a mom formula feed her baby than not use or incorrectly use a car seat.

I'm still mulling this over in my head...but I'm curious where the rest of you stand in your own hierarchies? I had someone say to me once "I could care less if you circumcise your baby, but at least breastfeed!" and I think I've come to the conclusion that my beliefs are exactly opposite of that.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

I was just thinking about this recently. Circumcism is the most important decision I can make for any son and it is one thing I will not budge on ever. It is the parenting issue I think is more important than any other. Breastfeeding is very important to me but circumcism is even more so because the effects of it will last a boys entire life. There future sex life will not be the same with a circumcism. You can't take it back. Breastmilk is healthy and important but it will not effect them later in life *as much* as circumcism does. I was just examining the same thing that I think it is more important to me that a boy is left intact than a baby is breastfed.

There are a few things I thought I be more crucnchy with. UP does not work for me and although I do use gentle discipline and liked some of the points from UP I do not folow it completely. I also encourage independent sleep and didn't co sleep as long as I thought with my ds. There are issues I could do things a little differently but circumcism does not fall into that catagory. I don't know if I could stay married to someone who was trying to force it.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Honestly, not that high.

FWIW, my two sons are circumcised. Were we ever to have another son, we would not circumcise. But even so, I don't view it as THAT big of a priority. I place breastfeeding way WAY up high. Natural birth is almost as high. Cloth diapering and babywearing are way up there, as is car seat safety. Cosleeping is high, but not all that high. If I had a child that happily slept in its own space in my room, that would be fine with me.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

if I were to have a boy, circumsicion isn't negotiable. It isn't happening. The end.

however for me, because it is such a cut and dry issue that I won't really need to think about again, I don't consider it on the list at all. It won't really interfere with daily life trying to care for a baby other than reminding people not to retract and junk.

Carseats also isn't on the list for me either simply because using it correctly isn't hard and doesn't interfere with life. I know how to install correctly and I know how a child should be seated in one and how tight the straps should be. case closed for me. The ONLY issue is when to go from rear facing to forward facing and my child currently is just fine rfing at 23 pounds and 16 months so I'm going to leave her and will leave her for as long as possible. If I had a child that seriously couldn't be rfing past the legal time, I'd reconsider my stance.

For the list, breastfeeding is definitely more important than cloth diapers and for my current baby, cloth diapers was more important than making my own baby food. I've succeeded at the first two perfectly and failed at the third but I DID do my best to make good baby food choices for her. I'm currently adding in not vaccinating and figuring out where it belongs for me. Right now we delay vax but I am looking into pushing to stop altogether. We also didn't cosleep but I think that that will also be moved up the list for the next child... not sure yet where it belongs though. I'm also hoping to put babywearing up higher on the list too but again, I'm not sure how the order is going to go yet.

I think breastfeeding, specifically extended breastfeeding with solids no earlier than 6 months, will always be my number one though. Unless we are factoring in the birth. Natural birth is EXTREMELY important to me and I want a homebirth next time (first time was a fsbc) but I'm not sure which one would win out. losing either I think would affect me deeply. heaven forbid I get neither... I think I would have some serious issues getting over that.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Number one issue for me.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

In a way I see it as a non-issue and a non-parenting issue. It's not my body, it's not my decision to cut parts of it off, so I'm not choosing not to circumcise -- I'm simply leaving things as nature intended. Circumcision is a decision that parents make, but it's not a parenting decision -- it has nothing to do with raising your child or shaping the person they become in any conscious, deliberate way.

Breastfeeding, CD/ECing, co-sleeping, gentle discipline, homeschooling, whatever it is -- those are all things that have to be done on a daily basis, even an hourly or minute by minute basis, and to me really are parenting decisions. Breastfeeding is at the top of the list for me for many reasons, and it is something that many moms have to work hard to do and really suffer and sacrifice for, so I see it as a parenting decision. As someone whose nursing relationship with my first nearly failed due to many factors, I can understand how sometimes a mom needs to make a parenting decision that breastfeeding isn't going to work out (although obviously I think we need a heck of a lot more support for moms so that there aren't so many booby traps!) And having nursed continuously for 8 years now, I'm pretty darned tired of it and I'm ready to stop because I'm not the parent I want to be after years of chronic sleep deprivation from night nursing. I do think every baby has the right to breastfeed but there's a big caveat in terms of whether every mama is able to breastfeed. It's not great if baby can't nurse but it's also not a human rights violation in the way that I think circumcision is.

But I simply don't see that there's ever a trade-off between circumcision and breastfeeding or any other real parenting decision, although I can certainly understand the question.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Yeah, I'm kind of fumbling over how exactly to word the question, because I also don't see it as something that I'm willing to "trade-off" or negotiate...the original discussion was definitely about trade-offs, but it got me thinking about what my priorities are.

I guess maybe a better way of putting it is...if you had to give a speech about one and only one topic related to pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting, what topic would you choose as the most important?

I used to think that breastfeeding was close to if not my number one choice.

Natural birth probably being up there.

Anti-CIO being up there somewhere.

Baby wearing being up there.

CIrcumcision has always been a big NO for me, but it hasn't really been an activism thing for me until recently. I didn't do it, but didn't really care much if others did. That's not true for me anymore!!

Oh, same with vaccines...it used to be not a big deal, I was on the fence, didn't really care what others did one way or another, but now I find myself talking about it more and more.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

there was no way i would have allowed my son to be circumcised.

but to me, that really wasn't a parenting *decision*.

for me, it is the default position.

my husband wanted to circumcise, but i said that he had to prove to me why surgery on normal anatomy was necessary.

for people who do circumcise, THEY are making a decision.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
In a way I see it as a non-issue and a non-parenting issue. It's not my body, it's not my decision to cut parts of it off, so I'm not choosing not to circumcise -- I'm simply leaving things as nature intended.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

Circumcision is BY FAR my first. BY FAR!

Second is CIO.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I'm with Quirky on this one in terms of labeling this a parenting decision. It's a human right issue to me.
I would not trade anything that compromised my child's emotional well being. I nurse because of the biological need for a human to receive human milk. Nothing else is specifically tailor made for that baby besides it's mother's milk. BUT breastfeeding has a huge emotional component and I place that aspect of it on equal footing with the biology.
I feel the same way with co-sleeping. Their is real biological science behind co-sleeping. Just read any of James McKenna's work if you are not familiar with it. There is also the emotional security issue. I wouldn't trade that for anything.
I understand the nature of the question. Meeting my child's biological and emotional needs are primary, so breastfeeding, co sleeping, baby wearing, never CIO...those sorts of things are totally not negotiable.


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
In a way I see it as a non-issue and a non-parenting issue. It's not my body, it's not my decision to cut parts of it off, so I'm not choosing not to circumcise -- I'm simply leaving things as nature intended. Circumcision is a decision that parents make, but it's not a parenting decision -- it has nothing to do with raising your child or shaping the person they become in any conscious, deliberate way.


ITA For me it was non-negotiable. Circumcising my son would have caused him physical harm. I could never choose to do that and justify it.


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## GinnyMama (Jun 27, 2008)

If I had to pick a position (I understand what you're saying, but the fact is is that it's not a "parenting" decision at all, and we know that), then it would definitely be number one.

I've been thinking about this lately... I had a friendship absolutely fall apart because I told her I thought she was making a gargantuan mistake, by thinking about just "giving in" to her husband's adamance about circumcision. Then a bunch of my other friends jumped all over me, saying things like "are you suggesting she leave her husband?!" And I felt terrible.

But now... in retrospect, I think I would. If my husband were the type of guy that couldn't listen to reason, and still wanted to damage our son like that, well then I don't think I'd like to be with him. And I would protect my son at all costs, including marriage. Most other issues have a little wiggle room... a bit of "discussion room".

Not when it comes to my sweet baby's bodily integrity, that's for sure.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
In a way I see it as a non-issue and a non-parenting issue. It's not my body, it's not my decision to cut parts of it off, so I'm not choosing not to circumcise -- I'm simply leaving things as nature intended. Circumcision is a decision that parents make, but it's not a parenting decision -- it has nothing to do with raising your child or shaping the person they become in any conscious, deliberate way.



Once again, Quirky said it better than I could - It's not even on my list of parenting decisions, because it's not a parenting decision.


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## annablue (Apr 6, 2010)

Circumcision simply _isn't_ happening. It's not even an option. The end. Nothing could make me needlessly circumcise my child. Unlike other parenting choices (breastfeeding, cloth diapering, etc) it's irreversible and once it's done, you can't go back. I'm very much against it.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Here's my top 5:

1) Circumcision- non-negotiable, I consider it assault and abuse, and would literally divorce over the issue, told DF as much the minute it looked like we were going to get serious (which was on our second date







), that he was welcome to look at all of the research if he wanted to and I would help him with that.

2) CIO- Ain't happening, but wouldn't leave my partner over it. WOULD stop leaving the baby alone with them, however, and did this with my previous partner over my daughter, before I eventually left him outright.

3) Breastfeeding- Will do everything in my power to EBF and CLW, but wouldn't leave my partner for giving formula. He never would, though, he's been educated on the advantages of breastfeeding now









4) Babywearing- I consider this important but I'm flexible about it, and wouldn't try to force my partner to do it if they didn't want to.

5) Cloth diapering- would rather CD, but it's a pretty big point spread between circ and diapering choices.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

keeping my baby from being mutilated? Up at the very tippy top of that list.

Next would be physical/emotional abuse; spanking/abandonment ect.

I can bend on nearly anything else.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Keeping the child intact is the number one priority. Period. Like others have said, once it's done it's done, there is no putting the foreskin back on. Other things may or may not be detrimental to my child but surgical removal of a healthy, functioning body part certainly is harmful and forever changes a sex organ that isn't my own.

I'm curious about what the OP meant by this:
"[caveat...I did not bring up circumcision at the meeting as it's outside the topics I'm allowed to discuss]".

Is circ discussion not allowed at your LLL meeting by anyone or just you? Can you provide more info on this? Maybe it's not allowed at any LLL meeting (I've never been to one). I would hope they would allow it, especially since some babies may have a nursing difficulty for a brief time after a circ. I hope if a new mama to a freshly circed baby asked questions someone there could answer her. I'd hate to see her stop breastfeeding because she thought something else was wrong.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'd say at the top. It's an absolutely non-negotiable for me.

Breastfeeding is a close second. I'd say they're tied, but if I ended up in a situation where I _had_ to pick one or the other (can't imagine how that would happen), not chopping off one of my baby's body parts would win out.

After that? They're all at least somewhat flexible. I was a tyrant about using cloth, at least most of the time, until after Aaron died. I've just never pulled it together sufficiently since then. I'm pretty hardcore about bedsharing, but it isn't _always_ the best...dd1 did better in her own bed, next to us, after about 3-4 months or so. I'm totally pro-babywearing, but don't do it that much with dd2, because of my back and shoulder issues. I'm a serious natural birth advocate, but...I've had five c-sections. Things have to give sometimes...but not foreskins.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Interesting. I just read through the thread, and realized I ddn't even think about CIO. It's a bit like circ - it's never even occurred to me to attempt CIO. It's just not on my list of possibles.

I agree with those who said that circ sin't really a parenting decision and wouldn't even really be on the list. To me, it's no different than asking "where on your list of parenting priorities is leaving all your baby's fingers in one piece?", except that I don't know anyone who _would_ chop off a baby's finger.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Those of you answering that it really isn't a parenting decision, I know what you mean, in that it's a human rights issue. I meant it more like "a decision you've made as part of being a parent".

I think leaving my boys intact is the most important decision I've made. Safety probably comes next...carseats, sleeping, vaccines, that sort of thing. Breastfeeding is up there high on the list. Other stuff isn't as important to me...I cloth dipe once in a while, I do make baby food but am not hugely hung up on it, I pay attention to nutrition but also take my kids to McD's, I send my kids to public school even though I do most of their academics at home since they're advanced.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
I'm curious about what the OP meant by this:
"[caveat...I did not bring up circumcision at the meeting as it's outside the topics I'm allowed to discuss]".

Is circ discussion not allowed at your LLL meeting by anyone or just you? Can you provide more info on this? Maybe it's not allowed at any LLL meeting (I've never been to one). I would hope they would allow it, especially since some babies may have a nursing difficulty for a brief time after a circ. I hope if a new mama to a freshly circed baby asked questions someone there could answer her. I'd hate to see her stop breastfeeding because she thought something else was wrong.

Yes, as LLL leaders we can discuss it only in the way you described, by warning that it could lead to temporary breastfeeding issues. We can say that any separation of mom and baby in the early weeks is undesired. But we are supposed to be culturally sensitive about it. LLL does not take an official stance on the topic, although I wish they did!


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

Non-negotiable

Physical or sexual abuse of any kind, including cutting off any part of my child's body

Mental or emotional abuse of any kind. I consider CIO to be emotional abuse.

Priority list

1. Natural birth (within the mother's comfort level)

2. Breastfeeding. A minimum of 6 months would be wonderful, with CLW as the ideal, but I'd take anything I could get.

3. Proper child restraint use, including extended RF. This isn't higher on my list because IMO it is easy to learn how to install the car seat correctly, and that isn't generally a day-to-day activity. Learning to buckle the child in correctly isn't hard to learn either, so the only thing left is to be diligent about doing it right, every single time.

4. Co-sleeping. I sort of see this as tied in with breastfeeding though, since co-sleeping is an excellent time for babies to help boost their mother's milk supply and foster emotional closeness. Then again, I have scarcely had a sleepless night while co-sleeping with my DD. It is the best way for all of us to get a great night's sleep. If I had experienced problems, I might feel differently.

5. No vaccination.

Things that I do but could be willing to drop without too much agony

Baby wearing. This is something that I loved doing, so it wasn't any work for me.

Cloth diapering

Making baby food. I didn't agonize over this actually. We just took whatever fruits/vegetables we were having, whirred it in our handy chopper, and added a little breastmilk to thin when necessary. Then we started adding soft goat cheese, very small bites of soft chicken, etc. I was still breastfeeding, so I didn't worry about nutrition with my home-made baby foods so much as exposure to textures and flavors.

Quote:

I guess maybe a better way of putting it is...if you had to give a speech about one and only one topic related to pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting, what topic would you choose as the most important?
Natural birth. Everything else flows from there, IMO.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I do not see how circumcision can be allowed to be a parental decison because I can see it okay for Real Medical Reasons but just for cosmetic it's like what's next boys getting penis piercing as babies ?

Real Parenting decisons are keeping your son's safe ,clean and healthy.

Feeding the child , keeping the child safe in cars , home, and public places. Cleaning is that the child is with clean clothes , clean undies/diapers, keeping the body and teeth clean . Having a child see a doctor when needed too.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

oh, and as for making homemade baby food, why not just try baby led weaing and skip the purees altogether? i've never bought any baby food, and i didn't blend anything either. i just started him on bananas and squash slices around 6 months old. he quickly progressed through most everything.

THIS was one of the best parenting choices i have made.

(not circumcising is a non-choice; it's the default.)


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

I can't decide between gentle discipline and circumcision. Perhaps this is it for me:
1. circ
2. gentle discipline
3. CIO
4. breastfeeding


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I agree with those who said that circ sin't really a parenting decision and wouldn't even really be on the list. To me, it's no different than asking "where on your list of parenting priorities is leaving all your baby's fingers in one piece?", except that I don't know anyone who _would_ chop off a baby's finger.









Also what Quirky and Fyrestorm said.

You could possibly make a whole list, like "is keeping all of your baby's toes in place more important than breastfeeding? Is not cutting off the tip of your baby's nose more important than cloth diapers? Is not breaking your baby's arm more important than cosleeping?"
All of those are false dichotomies. You never have to make a choice between them. Likewise, you would never have to choose to circumcise your baby in order to be able to cosleep, babywear, breastfeed, or whatever. Whereas I can totally see the situations like you described where you just had to give up the cloth diapers because life with a high-needs baby made things too crazy to keep up with the laundry. I could see a bad back resulting in no babywearing, or physical or emotional issues resulting in an inability to breastfeed. But there is no situation where you would have to circumcise in order to make other things work. Unless it was to keep the father in the baby's life. Then you would have to ask yourself: "would I break my baby's arm so his father wouldn't leave us? Would I cut off his toes so his father wouldn't leave us? Would I cut off the end of his nose so his father wouldn't leave us?" and then you see it is really a non-option; you would have to simply get out of the mind-set of "I could have kept our family together if only I had let my husband have his way and circumcise our baby, so it is my fault and my choice that my baby has no father in his life" and see it for what it really is, "my husband was dead-set on physically abusing our baby, so he is well gone from us."

Just a side-note on the baby food thing: I think the store-bought vs. homemade baby food is another false dichotomy. You don't need either! If the baby can ONLY eat food that is of a thin, liquidy consistency with no pulp or chunks in it, then he is not ready for food and should still be on breastmilk or formula. Then, when he _is_ ready for food with some texture, you just give him food with some texture, like bananas, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, etc. There's never actually a need to use "baby food" at all, so no reason to feel guilty about not making it homemade.

Jen


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElliesMomma* 
oh, and as for making homemade baby food, why not just try baby led weaing and skip the purees altogether? i've never bought any baby food, and i didn't blend anything either. i just started him on bananas and squash slices around 6 months old. he quickly progressed through most everything.

THIS was one of the best parenting choices i have made.

(not circumcising is a non-choice; it's the default.)

Oh, I must have skipped reading yours before I posted! Yeah, same here on the baby food.


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## ~adorkable~ (Nov 7, 2007)

*Infant Circumcision*
*
It's not a parenting choice,
it's a human rights issue.*

I need a sticker that says exactly that! I have never had my thoughts put so succinctly.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *•Adorkable•* 

*Infant Circumcision*
*
It's not a parenting choice,
it's a human rights issue.*

I need a sticker that says exactly that! I have never had my thoughts put so succinctly.

I have plans to go screenprint some intactivist t-shirts with a friend next week and we are trying to decide what to say. That sounds PERFECT!

Jen


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## Mama Metis (Feb 10, 2010)

I would say, rather than ranking these items, that any of these "decisions" - planning a natural birth, rejecting circumcision or vaccines, breastfeeding, etc. can be a "gateway" to a thoughtful, evidence-based way of parenting, rather than a "follow the mainstream" style of parenting. So in the context of a class or group, I would think asking the participants to research the one parenting "decision" that they are most interested in learning about would help to open that gateway. Especially if MDC was one of the recommended resources.







One hopes thoughtful rejection of circ and it's harms would be a natural outcome of that change in perspective.


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## whozeyermamma (Oct 11, 2007)

This has been fascinating.

I think for me I find myself framing it not in the context of breastfeeding vs. circ but more - how important is it to me that I did not circ. before baby vs after.

Before DS was born I knew I didn't want to circ - argued against it and brought DH around to my side 100 percent. But after he was born, I found myself unbelivably passionate about it. The idea of circing my baby made me physically ill.

I like what Jen said, especially this:

"You could possibly make a whole list, like "is keeping all of your baby's toes in place more important than breastfeeding? Is not cutting off the tip of your baby's nose more important than cloth diapers? Is not breaking your baby's arm more important than cosleeping?"


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Not letting anyone circumcise my child is right up there with not letting anyone molest my child... right up there at the top.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Not letting anyone circumcise my child is right up there with not letting anyone molest my child... right up there at the top.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I love this thread! As somebody with a whole world of plans but no children yet, I think about this a lot.

To me, parenting ideas fall into two categories; things you can absolutely do and things you can do if mom, baby and nature cooperate.

Things I can absolutely do
-Cloth diaper
-Not circumcise
-Extended rear face
-Co-sleep (or baby in his/her own crib in room if medical issues arise)
-Not CIO or spank

Things I can do if myself, baby and nature cooperate
-Home birth
-Breastfeed
-Baby wear (I've heard that rarely, some babies don't like it)

To me, the top list is non-negotiable while the bottom list is not. I will give my heart and soul to home birth and breastfeed. However, if I have placenta previa, I will march to the hospital for a c-section. If I am in the tiny percentage of women who cannot nurse, I'll gladly give formula. However, I view the top list as decisions based upon my morals, so I couldn't compromise on them. It's hard to "prioritize" because there would never be a situation where I'd have to choose between circumcising or spanking, you know?


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## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

I think the overarching most important think is raising the baby with love -- to me, that encompasses things like no CIO, no hitting, babywearing, cosleeping, and general AP parenting.
But after that, if I had another baby boy, no circing would be top on the list for him, homebirthing (if medically okay) would be top on the list for me, and breastfeeding would be top on the list for both of us, if that makes sense.
I would never marry or partner with someone who wasn't supportive of me homebirthing and breastfeeding. I could marry someone who wanted to circ, as long as he quickly understood that it would never happen in a million years.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
I love this thread! As somebody with a whole world of plans but no children yet, I think about this a lot.

To me, parenting ideas fall into two categories; things you can absolutely do and things you can do if mom, baby and nature cooperate.

Things I can absolutely do
-Cloth diaper
-Not circumcise
-Extended rear face
-Co-sleep (or baby in his/her own crib in room if medical issues arise)
-Not CIO or spank

Things I can do if myself, baby and nature cooperate
-Home birth
-Breastfeed
-Baby wear (I've heard that rarely, some babies don't like it)

To me, the top list is non-negotiable while the bottom list is not. I will give my heart and soul to home birth and breastfeed. However, if I have placenta previa, I will march to the hospital for a c-section. If I am in the tiny percentage of women who cannot nurse, I'll gladly give formula. However, I view the top list as decisions based upon my morals, so I couldn't compromise on them. It's hard to "prioritize" because there would never be a situation where I'd have to choose between circumcising or spanking, you know?









that was exactly what i was coming on here to say. choosing to not have my son circumcised was the easiest decision parenting wise i will ever have to make.


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## bunniemunchagain (Jul 30, 2007)

My list is
No circ. i put this first as its the first thing that prob enter some docs minds before they think of the child eating tsk. they dont need to eat right away but need to not be cut!!
ExtdBF
Anti-cio
cosleeping
vaccines(sorry i be unpopular on that one)


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

not on my list. Not a parenting decision for me.
But I'm from a culture where most people don't even know what circ is.


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## beep (Aug 18, 2009)

Breastfeeding and not introducing solids until past six months is at the top of my list. No CIO is probably second. There are a bunch of other things I really care about too. Honestly, circumcision is much lower on my list. My son isn't circumcised, and nor did I want him to be. I was the one who did the research and made the decision on that (his dad left it up to me), and I absolutely think it was the right choice for a bunch of reasons. However, I would rather have my son circumcised than have him not breastfed, CIO, watch TV regularly as a baby, not eat nutritious food, not be raised with gentle discipline...


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

For me it kinda comes under "So far out there it's not even really an issue". Like "Where is branding your baby with the family crest on your list of parenting decisions".







I live in a country where it's rare, so while I'm interested in intactivism politically, it hasn't come up very much personally. The inlaws tried to push it briefly (they're from South Africa), but nearly everyone else I know in NZ is pretty clueless about circ. It just doesn't happen a lot.

Plus, I had a girl.


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## WifeofAnt (May 2, 2010)

*No abuse is a given. Its not a parenting decision, its the law.*

*1. No Circ*. If anyone went behind my back and circ'd my baby I think I'd... they'd wish for a lawsuit.
*2. No CIO*. I could deal if outside my care someone had to use CIO because they had no other option but I wouldn't leave my baby with anyone who believed in it as an everyday option.
*3. No hitting/spanking/slapping*. I came from a house where... we weren't so nice to each other so this one is going to be the hardest for me. I really do hope that I can raise my children with more words and less hitting than the house I grew up in. (State foster care isn't fun.)
*4. Extended Rear Facing*. Its just a wise decision everyone should think to make.
*5. Breastfeeding, BLW, CLW*. I didn't realize I'd value more things more than this but I do.
*6. Cosleeping*. Maybe not bed-sharing but baby has to be near me.
*7. Vaccinating... not vaccinating?*. Eh, I'm not really as gung-ho as some people but I do still care.
*8. Baby Wearing*. I love my baby already but he's not going to die if I use a stroller now and then.
*9. Cloth Diapers*. Really this one is mainly for the money saved.
*10. Natural Childbirth*. I doubt myself. I'm going to prepare the best I can but I'm not a failure if I don't or can't do it. Plus the baby is more important than me.


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## erin23kate (Apr 16, 2009)

I would get a divorce before I'd circumcise my son. I am formula-feeding my son (I'm on medication that isn't safe) and while I feel pretty guilty about it, he's not going to curse me for feeding him formula when he's older.

I know plenty of men who are very angry at their parents for cutting off part of their genitalia. When your sons are adults, they likely will not know or care if they were breastfed, formula fed, cloth-diapered, worn, or strollered, baby-led-weaned, elimination communicated, or even (as much as I hate it), left to cry it out.

They WILL know if they've been circumcised, and they WILL remember if they were the victim of corporal punishment. I will have to look my son in the eye when he's 20 or 30 or 40 and explain my choices for those two things.

So, when I made those two decisions, I made them thinking about the conversation I would have with the adult David James. I left his penis alone because it's HIS and I didn't smack him because he is a person, and worthy of respect.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin23kate* 
I would get a divorce before I'd circumcise my son. I am formula-feeding my son (I'm on medication that isn't safe) and while I feel pretty guilty about it, *he's not going to curse me* for feeding him formula when he's older.

I know plenty of men who are very angry at their parents for cutting off part of their genitalia. When your sons are adults, *they likely will not know or care if they were breastfed, formula fed, cloth-diapered, worn, or strollered, baby-led-weaned, elimination communicated, or even (as much as I hate it), left to cry it out.
*
They WILL know if they've been circumcised, and they WILL remember if they were the victim of corporal punishment. I will have to look my son in the eye when he's 20 or 30 or 40 and explain my choices for those two things.

So, when I made those two decisions, I made them thinking about the conversation I would have with the adult David James. I left his penis alone because it's HIS and I didn't smack him because he is a person, and worthy of respect.

bolding, mine. i agree he may not curse you, & not knowing any details about your situation, i am not commenting about you personally. i think it's incorrect to say he won't care about these things. i do disagree however, that he may not be upset at how his life began. and, for the record, i think circ is about the highest on my priority list. BUT, taking into account that the current struggles in my life are a direct result of my not being breastfed & not having come through the birth canal & dh being circ'd, i care a great deal & i'm not too happy w/ the choices that were made for me & dh.









sus


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## whozeyermamma (Oct 11, 2007)

The spanking comparison is particularly apt. Even before I had kids, I knew I would never ever spank, slap, or use any type of physical punishment. The idea of it is horrific and became even more so after DD was born.

Since having my son, I'd place circ-ing in the same boat as spanking - something I would consider abusive and never tolerate.


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## japonica (May 26, 2005)

I agree with what the other posters said, it's in a separate realm totally and was not just a "parenting choice." I come from a family background where the tradition has been to keep males intact. Yet I married a husband whose family was the total opposite. I recall one of my SILs asking me, as soon as everyone found out we were having a boy, "So, to circumcise or not?" And I looked at her like she'd just asked if I was going to have his toes amputated or ears cut off...it's so out of my frame of reference that I thought it was a crazy question.

And my husband only brought it up once and once he knew that, yes, this was a hill I was willing to die on, then he left well enough alone.

I think when it gets portrayed as a simple parenting choice, like BF vs FF or co-sleeping vs crib sleeping then it gets trivialized and somehow depicted as less momentous an issue than it really is.

My other parenting choices are, like I said, in a different category. Although I do view vaccination in an almost similar manner. Unvaxed, for me, is an aspect of their body integrity, so I will do my best to uphold that for them...whatever my kids decide to do in their adult years...get vaccinated, or in the case of my son, get circed...that will be their decisions.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

and I AM a pretty extreme intactivist if you look at our two cars (the only two bumperstickers each of them has are anti-circ...so a total of four anti-circ bumperstickers) and my anti-circ clothes, I still would put non-vaccinating above circ. In some crazy hypothetical case where i would *have to* choose between the two evils (vaccines vs. circ) I would rather circ (under general anastesia) than vaccinate.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

What other parts of our children can we remove and still call it a parenting choice?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
What other parts of our children can we remove and still call it a parenting choice?

This.


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## maplesugar (May 24, 2005)

I would agree that stuff like circ is not a "choice". It is just something never, ever to do.
I guess if I had to give a speech on one parenting issue, I would choose circ, because a lot of people don't think about it one way or another. They just go along with the cultural norm, which in the US is regrettably male genital mutilation.
Breastfeeding and non vaccination are also extremely important to me


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I understand, OP, what you're trying to say about parenting decisions. But for me, circumcision was never something I even considered. So I don't really think of it as a "decision". "Decision" sort of implies that you weigh the pros and cons and pick the best thing. I view circ as inhumane mutilation, kind of like ripping off fingernails. If someone asked if you would consider ripping off your baby's fingernails, it would be laughable, right? I don't wake up in the morning and _decide_ to breathe air...it's just the normal and right thing.

Maplesugar, I actually did use RIC as a topic for my speech class last year (persuasive speech). I was one of the older students in the class, and I feel like I made a real impression with a lot of my young classmates. In his critique of my speech one guy (about 24-25yo) said that he had never really thought about it and I probably saved his future sons' foreskins.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

For me, it doesn't even fit on the list. Like not beating my kids, it's a given for me. Circ is a one time decision. Granted, I didn't have spouse or family disagreements, but not circumcising doesn't require a regular time investment. Once we made the decision, it didn't even require mental energy. If it became *really* medically necessary for one of the boys, we'd do it, no guilt involved. But short of that, it's didn't happen and it won't.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

What I mean is...when I look back on all the decisions I've made as a parent, I used to think that breastfeeding was on top of my list of "I'm *SO* glad I chose that" or "if I had to pass on one piece of advice to a new mom, it would be breastfeeding." But I've come to realize that I think not-circing tops my list in decisions I'm glad I made.

(and yes, circ is a decision, it is something that we all had to say yes or no to, making it a decision we consciously made. For some it may have been a given, but for others--myself included--it did require researching, weighing the pros and cons, and deliberately choosing intactness)

I came from a circ family, knew nobody that was intact, knew nothing of intactivism, did not initially view it as a human rights issue...but three intact boys later, and I have realized that it's the best decision I made.

Now interestingly, that isn't quite true for my middle son. He is special needs with a ton of health issues. Many of them weren't apparent until a few weeks after birth, so he would have been circd if I had requested it. His health was so bad for a while as an infant that I have no doubt that if he was not breastfed, he would have died. He wasn't just sick, he was aspirating, he had numerous surgeries, he has a primary immune deficiency. He probably would have survived a circ, but would not have survived his first year without breastmilk. Looking back at the decisions I've made for *him*, breastfeeding tops my list of "I'm so glad I made that decision" and circ is a very close second.

For my "normal" boys, circ tops breastfeeding.


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## dianakaye (Mar 20, 2009)

Maybe this is just the pregnancy talking, but this thread is breaking my heart. The way I feel about my son (and future child) has lead me treat him with respect and make all the best decisions I knew how for him (intact, breastfed, co-sleeping, etc) and it kills me to imagine doing anything differently. I think my priorities are probably 1) genital integrity 2)breastfeeding 3) gentle discipline 4)co-sleeping and then after that I could really live with myself if I HAD to vax or use disposables. I guess I just see it all as a package as "this is how I love and respect my child, so this is how I treat him".


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

IMO, circumcision isn't a parenting decision, (or at least shouldn't be). It's a personal decision the child should make when he's old enough to do so. This is a non-negotiable issue for me.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

I'm not sure I see the point of putting things in order of priority when they are things that you do NOT have to choose between. I mean, time in a day is limited so every day I have to decide if it is going to be more important to make a homemade meal, do some deep serious house cleaning, take the kids on an enriching outing, or so on. In other words, I can't do it ALL so I have to decide which is most important. On the other hand, I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would actually have to choose whether to keep their child intact or breastfeed him, so I kinda don't see the point of hypothetically deciding which you would give up.
Speaking from personal experience, I was formula fed and vaccinated and I am as healthy as a horse. I was crib-slept, playpen-trained, and spanked, yet I have a warm and close relationship with my parents. I would not in a million years go back and change any of those choices my parents made, if it meant giving up some of my genital tissue. My brother feels the same way. He has a ton of seasonal allergies, too, which maybe could have been avoided if he had been breastfed, but if he had a choice to go back in time and be breastfed but circumcised he would not. I think most people can forgive their parents for not doing everything perfectly all the time, but forgiving them for cutting a chunk off your genitals is a lot harder, especially if you know that they _did_ know better and did it anyway.

Jen


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## honey3 (Jul 18, 2009)

Circumcision is the one thing that is just absolutely non-negotiable for me. Not for any amount of money in the world would I circumcise a son of mine.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I don't view circ as a parenting decision.


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## Chasing (Jul 26, 2010)

During our last visit with our doula, she asked us if we intended to circumcise Chase. We realized it wasn't medically necessary, and decided to opt out. I am glad we did, now that we have had a chance to further research. At the time, however, I will admit we hadn't put much thought into it.

I desperately wanted a natural birth, but gestational hypertension and breech position made that an unsafe choice for me. Thankfully, my nurse midwife literally shoved my nipple into my son's mouth soon after he was born and he latched and fed immediately. Breast feeding was HUGELY important to me.

I intend to make his food and possibly go supplemented vegan. I am in the process of fully researching this to be certain Chase will get all the necessary nutrition.

We are currently delaying and eventually selecting his vaccinations. I am also in the process of fully researching vaccinations and may decide to not vaccinate him at all.

The idea of crying it out (CIO right? I am new, so I'm not up on my acronyms!) makes me physically ill. We also co-sleep and baby wear, so he's been relatively non-fussy!

I'll shamefully admit I didn't realize that you should/could leave a baby rearfacing, and intend to look up the reasons why. Honestly, there are a lot of things I don't fully realize, which is why I am so thankful for these forums. I have gleaned so much in so little time! While I may not change all of my intended plans for my DS (that's Chase, right?! Darling Son?), it is good to have my intentions challenged.

Everything warrants a second look, even if it only serves to fortify your position.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chasing* 

The idea of crying it out (CIO right? I am new, so I'm not up on my acronyms!) makes me physically ill...
While I may not change all of my intended plans for my DS (that's Chase, right?! Darling Son?)...

Welcome, mama! Yes, you are correct with the acronyms. I think there is still a thread in the "comments and suggestions" that provides a long list of them.

Also, if you haven't read them already, we have several great resource "sticky" threads at the top of the circ forum that address intact penises. The one about not letting doctors or nurses retract your DS's foreskin (and the harm it can cause) is really good and worth reading.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chasing* 
I'll shamefully admit I didn't realize that you should/could leave a baby rearfacing, and intend to look up the reasons why. Honestly, there are a lot of things I don't fully realize, which is why I am so thankful for these forums. I have gleaned so much in so little time! While I may not change all of my intended plans for my DS (that's Chase, right?! Darling Son?), it is good to have my intentions challenged.

Everything warrants a second look, even if it only serves to fortify your position.


Check out the family safety forums for tons of info on RFing. Also here is a great video:


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2boyzmama* 
What I mean is...when I look back on all the decisions I've made as a parent, I used to think that breastfeeding was on top of my list of "I'm *SO* glad I chose that" or "if I had to pass on one piece of advice to a new mom, it would be breastfeeding." But I've come to realize that I think not-circing tops my list in decisions I'm glad I made.


This is an interesting way to frame the question. Of all the things I have done in regard to my babies, if I had to pick ONE thing to pass on to a new mom or proselytize for, it would be circumcision. Far, far above breastfeeding, for example. Pretty close behind circumcision would be childbirth choices.


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## groovynaturemama (Mar 8, 2007)

it is a hill upon which i'd die; no question about it.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMoon* 
IMO, circumcision isn't a parenting decision, (or at least shouldn't be). It's a personal decision the child should make when he's old enough to do so. This is a non-negotiable issue for me.

That's how I feel as well. Also, for me, it's not something I can compromise on. It's not like I'm going to get all exhausted scrubbing out his foreskin 70 bazillion times a day that I throw up my hands and say, "to hell with it, let's cut it off already!". But that's what can easily happen with cloth diapers, breastfeeding, making baby food, ect. I planned to make baby food...never did. I didn't even plan on using cloth, but then I did, and now with kid #2, I'm back to using disposables part-time. I breastfed #1, pumped for #2 (tube fed, so no way I could have nursed) and I quit much sooner than I would have liked because I threw up my hands and said "to hell with it!" To be perfectly honest, I even went back on my "no spanking" rule for a while (thankfully found out it didn't work and stopped). I know lots of people that plan to CIO and don't or don't plan to CIO and then do. Or plan to homeschool and don't and vice versa. But foreskins don't affect the day to day life of any of the family. They don't get in the way. They aren't troublesome. They don't exhaust you. They're just....there.

I change what I do as needed. But there's no need for cutting off a foreskin (routinely anyway), so it's not something I'm just going to change on.

As for hierarchy? #1 I suppose, but like another person said, sort of a non-issue. I don't think about it anymore than I think "I won't compromise on beating my kids". But not everyone sees it like that, so when I started seeing someone after I left ex, one of the first things I let him know once we were serious was that if we have kids, they will be circ'ed over my dead body. He was a little offended at first, because he thought he should have a say. Once I explained that it's not about what I want or what he wants, but what the kid wants, he agreed with me 100%. We've found out that we disagree on MANY parenting things. None of it deal-breakers though. I'm very disappointed that he's totally anti-homeschooling, but that is something I would compromise on. He's a little weirded out by the extended nursing, cloth diapering, veg*nism, no-vaxxing, ect but that's stuff HE'S willing to compromise on. I'm flexible, just not with circ. Or beating my kids.


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## MoonJelly (Sep 10, 2004)

1. Circumcision
2. CIO
3. GD

(I don't mess with the psyche!)









4. Breastfeeding
5. Chemicals and medications (labor, vax, food, etc)

6. Anything else on the Attachment Parenting list (co-sleeping or close sleeping, baby-wearing, etc) is a bonus.

7. Anything on the Natural Parenting list (CD'ing, organics, etc) is nice if you can swing it but not everyone can for one reason or another.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MoonJelly* 
1. Circumcision
2. CIO
3. GD

(I don't mess with the psyche!)









4. Breastfeeding
5. Chemicals and medications (labor, vax, food, etc)

6. Anything else on the Attachment Parenting list (co-sleeping or close sleeping, baby-wearing, etc) is a bonus.

7. Anything on the Natural Parenting list (CD'ing, organics, etc) is nice if you can swing it but not everyone can for one reason or another.

You know...I don't know if I'd come down _exactly_ the same way you have, but...I'm pretty close, and I _love_ the way you put this. (I think I might switch around 5 and 6...maybe - some overlap...I'm not sure.)


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
What other parts of our children can we remove and still call it a parenting choice?

You are a thousand persent right! Another one I like is where parenting choice stops and abuse begins.
But at the same time in this crazy hypothetical situation where i *had to* choose between the two, I'd rather have my some hating me for violating his human rights than injecting with something I now strongly believe can cause very serious life lasting consequenses (cancer being one of them). And yes, restored foreskin is definitely not the same, but then, I believe it goes the same about health damaged by vaccines...it never is the same once it gets seriously damaged...


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## MoonJelly (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
You know...I don't know if I'd come down _exactly_ the same way you have, but...I'm pretty close, and I _love_ the way you put this. (I think I might switch around 5 and 6...maybe - some overlap...I'm not sure.)









Thanks!

I actually agree 5 and 6 could be re-arranged too. And I guess it could be argued that 5 is really part of 7. In any case, I am not against all medications in all situtations and I know I can't/won't avoid all chemicals and I am okay with that.


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## anne1140 (Apr 10, 2007)

The only completely non-negotiables for me are circumcision, CIO, and spanking. Others are way up there, but I can't say, as a non-parent, that I absolutely will or will not do anything else.


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## buckeyedoc (Nov 9, 2006)

Not circumcising is at the top, but tied with breastfeeding. Gentle sleep training and babywearing would be next. Other things, like cosleeping, cloth diapering and vaccination are not ranked as high for me.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
In a way I see it as a non-issue and a non-parenting issue. It's not my body, it's not my decision to cut parts of it off, so


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
What other parts of our children can we remove and still call it a parenting choice?

I completely agree as usual with both of you. There is no decision to make.

For those who have said they would choose anything else over circumcision if it came right down to it... Would you also circumcise your daughter? Or cut off any other functioning part of your child's body (either sex)?


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I think everyone has issues that are important to them for personal reasons.

I don't have a hiearchy. I have "negotiables" and "non negotiables"









yeah, I do put breastfeeding at the same level as cicumcision but not because I would permit my daughter to be circed but that I have asthma, bad allegies and an autoimmune disease. Breastfeeding isn't only best for my kids but it would be detrimental for them not to have been nursed.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
I don't have a hiearchy. I have "negotiables" and "non negotiables"









yeah, I do put breastfeeding at the same level as cicumcision but not because I would permit my daughter to be circed but that I have asthma, bad allegies and an autoimmune disease. Breastfeeding isn't only best for my kids but it would be detrimental for them not to have been nursed.

The top part is true for me too I think.

As for the second part I actually 100% agree with that as well in practice. I was never going to try breastfeeding, I was breastfeeding. I considered it (still do) absolutely necessary for my children to have breastmilk if at all possible (thinking one of the rare diseases on the part of the baby where it is not compatible to have EBF).

That being said while I would and do put it at the same level as circumcision in that, for me, there isn't a choice to be made, there is only a default position that I will defend for my children's well being... still if it came down to it (and I know it never would) where it was a choice between breastfeeding my child or circumcising them (either sex), I view breastfeeding as *more* of a choice. There is no choice at all with circumcision (either sex) unless we are talking about my own body, any more than there would be if I said is it a choice to cut off the top portion of my child's healthy finger. With breastfeeding there is technically a choice. A child needs to be fed... how are you going to do that?


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

Keeping a baby in one piece is the number one priority. No other decision involves permanently removing part of the body and doesn't come close.


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

leaving my son intact was a no-brainer honestly. i don't know if i could even call it a 'decision'.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

I think it's great that none of us here consider it a 'decision' in the strictest sense of the word- however, especially for people who have hospital births, at some point a health care provider is going to ask if they want it done to their baby and they are going to have to say 'yes' or 'no'. So, in that sense, while it is sad that the issue even comes up, the question will be asked and the answer will have to be given at that time.

It shouldn't be a decision, but it is, and it's one that we can use as an example to help others in their decision-making process, at least until whether or not to circ is finally, someday, no longer a question that is routinely asked of parents.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynsage* 
I think it's great that none of us here consider it a 'decision' in the strictest sense of the word- however, especially for people who have hospital births, at some point a health care provider is going to ask if they want it done to their baby and they are going to have to say 'yes' or 'no'. So, in that sense, while it is sad that the issue even comes up, the question will be asked and the answer will have to be given at that time.

It shouldn't be a decision, but it is, and it's one that we can use as an example to help others in their decision-making process, at least until whether or not to circ is finally, someday, no longer a question that is routinely asked of parents.

You are so right - It is ridiculous that this question is even asked. One might tranlate it to "Would you like your baby's penis mutilated before he goes home?" BUT, I guess when ca$h is at stake ??!!


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

it was #1. its simply not my choice to make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needhelpplease (Sep 18, 2007)

It's probably #1 for me, but I'm not a parent yet, so it may change.

I just wouldn't like a partner who wanted to circ (and I would in no way let them do it!) and prefer to associate with people who don't do it either. I'm very judgmental when it comes to circ.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I don't really see many of those things are "choices".

With DD1, due to thyroid issues, i lost my supply. i HAD to formula feed her. There was no milkbank, no nursing friend able to help out, no choice. I had to.

I have had 2 natural births, but i wouldn't consider it "easier" to have a c-section, and i would have a c-section if i medically needed one, so again, not a hill i get to pick to die on or not.

With daipering i kind of think that IS a choice, and you might trade off home-made foods (which take more time) for jar foods, because you gain TIME. What do you "gain" with circumcision?


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