# OMG. Look at this ebay auction. :(



## mistymama

ebay auction link

This is acutally a substance you put in your child's mouth!









I really want to write this seller, but I have no idea what to say. I can't believe they can sell stuff like this on ebay, promoting it is a "better" alternative to corporal punishment ... as if squirting something sour into your 2 year old's mouth is a better option.







:


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## Ceinwen

Quote:

Water, citric acid, vinegar, capsicum. Basically, it's a water-based placebo. It primarily tastes sour and "most" children do not like the taste,
























Yeah right! "Primarily tastes sour"!!! Capasin is pepper - that would burn like a bitch. What the hell is wrong with people!

I hope this guy gets a dose of his own medicine.







:


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## ryleeee

that is disgusting.


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## rainbowmoon

rediculous!


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## peaceful herbivore

Ew...

that is just disgusting to me.


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## Cheshire

I didn't look at the Ebay link but from your description it sounds like tongue spanking. The woman that used to play Blaire (sp?) on The Facts of Life has written a book (or something like it) advocating it.

Yuck!


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## dawnk

I can't believe parents would actually spray something like that into their child's mouth.







:


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## coopnwhitsmommy

Well people put soap in their childs mouths. I just asked the seller.

How is this any different than putting soap in a childs mouth? From my experience it doesn't work and only taught me that my Mommy was mad at me.

waiting for a response


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## Mom4tot

Holy crap!







:


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## Raven67

As a hazardous item....Go to the bottom of the screen and click on "security." There will be prompts to follow and eventually, you just insert the item number. Unfortunately, you can't explain the problem, but maybe if enough people complain, they will be convinced it is a potentially hazardous product and yank the sale.


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## leomom

Ok, I reported it Raven. We'll see what happens. That is sooo unbelievable!


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## User101

That is disgusting.


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## Artisan

Now THAT is cruel and unusual punishment.


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## amydidit

Disgusting!

I reported it too... I hope I did it right.


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## spudisle

Unbelievable.

I just reported it to ebay as well.


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## Fuamami

A couple in the DC area were putting hot sauce on their foster children's mouths for discipline, and they were charged with child abuse. Maybe you should tell the seller that! Foster parents aren't supposed to use any corporal discipline, of course, and I remember that they argued it wasn't painful. The judge didn't buy it!

Sarah


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## DesireeH

Oh yuck!

When I was a kid I knew a girl whose stepmom put hot sauce on her tongue!







Poor kid, she still has problems to this day and she is my age.


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## pamelamama

Hey, should I move this to activism where you maybe can get a group together to take action?


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## StephandOwen

That's horrible







I reported.


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## Clara

It's not just the eBay seller. This is an actual product sold on a website with more information:

Behavol

Yuck.


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## pamelamama

They're using research that opposes spanking to supposedly support use of their product.

shocking: http://www.behavol.com/research.html

See how they quote natural child project??? Shocking!


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## Tummy

Ok, this is what gets me....
"Behavol modifies inappropriate behaviors in children safely and quickly!"
" safe and simple process based upon a clinical approach to behavior modification."
"Current research discourages the use of corporal punishment because it increases the risk for long-term negative emotional and psychological effects."

NOW, my beef with this is...
1. midifies inappropriate behaviors??? safley??? quicly???
2. safe?? clinical modification to behavior???
3. discourage the use of corpral punishment.. risks for long-term negative emotional and psychological effect???
HELLOO WHAT IS THIS PRODUCT DOING... IT IS TEACHING A CHILD THAT YOU "NEED" TO PUT A CHEMICAL INTO YOUR BODY TO MAKE YOUR BEHAVIOR CHANGE... in return I beleive it is teaching a child to become dependant on using drugs in the future to cope with things!!
JUST WRONG IN MY OPINION!


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## Katie Bugs Mama

______________
From their FAQ:
Why is Behavol most effective for the 3-7 year old age group?

Children in this age group are learning the boundaries of appropriate behavior. Children below the age of three may not have the maturity to understand cause and affect relationships. Children over the age of seven might believe that Behavol is a consequence or punishment rather than a learning tool.
____________________

Ummm...could that be because it IS a punishment! Learning tool my


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## kaydee

I reported as well, but I suspect nothing will happen. It really doesn't fit well into any of eBay's prohibited or questionable items lists (even though I think it *should* be prohibited and is more than questionable!







: )


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## coopnwhitsmommy

This is the response from the seller regarding how is this different than soap.

Basically says this is "safe" psychological manipulation used to produce positive results.

He also says that it looks like medecine so the kids think it's medecine to help them "behave better" Basically Placebo Effect

useing soap or Tabasco sauce does not fool the child into believing anythng other than they are being punished.


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## Mom4tot

Sounds like a psychopath....wow.


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## Ruthla

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is for this product to be sold via eBay and its own website. It looks like it's mostly marketed to parents who would otherwise be spanking.

This product certainly doesn't meet MDC's criteria for banner ads, but eBay is another story!!!


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## mistymama

Ruthla, I think it's shocking and terrible to put something with a pepper ingredient in it in your child's mouth. It's going to burn, and it's right along the same lines as putting hot sauce or soap in a child's mouth ... but what was even more shocking is that this wierdo is anti corporal punishment but thinks it's ok to squirt something bitter/spicy in your child's mouth?

I do think it's terrible, and obviously I'm not alone here.


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## User101

I asked him if it was regulated by the FDA since it is going into kids mouths. He claims it is a food supplement, and that there are no drugs or active ingredients.









Apparently, also, it is "cosmetic" capsicum. He also claimed he dropped it into his own eyes to make sure it is safe. Um... yeah.


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## Mom4tot

What gobbly ****!!


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## gilnikche

This part truly bothers me...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coopnwhitsmommy*

Ideally, Behavol was intended to be used just a few times, and then it would become a visual deterrent to the child. We also allowed the children to give us Behavol when we said "bad words" or made mistakes. Other parents have also utilized this practice. This reversal shows the child that your intent is not to hurt him or punish him, but instead you're giving him Behavol because you believe it will help him. Plus, I never swear around the children, thanks to Behavol. True story!!! I don't care much for it either.


This reminds me of when my mom would use a belt on us kids. Then she would hang it on a hook where we could see it as "visual deterrent".


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## kaydee

Sweet josephine! This product, as described by the seller, is even worse than hot sauce or soap, in a way. The idea of it being a "good behavior drug" is really twisted, to me...


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## User101

Anyone hear back from ebay?


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## Simply Nurtured

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
What gobbly ****!!










Eloquently said, although you are being WAAAAY too kind...

Why do these people even have children? I just don't get it. I don't want to know anybody like this person who sells this junk, I just would like to live on an island with my DH, my kids, and like-minded people who actually don't think of their kids as "problems", but blessings.

I know, I know, not reality...

I just feel a little frustrated today, I have to remember, I can't change the whole world, just have to focus on my little corner of it...


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## coopnwhitsmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
Sweet josephine! This product, as described by the seller, is even worse than hot sauce or soap, in a way. The idea of it being a "good behavior drug" is really twisted, to me...









ITA


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## pamelamama

Did you notice the research quotes the Natural Child project? I wrote a letter to inform them that they were being taken out of context, and they have written a letter to the company, asking that the references be removed.

I assume the other people who are quoted about the alternatives to spanking did not intend to be used in this way. How about some more letters to the individuals quoted to make them aware of what's going on?

ACTivism!!








http://www.behavol.com/research.html


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## User101

Oh yeah, that was totally sick. As were the little frowny face children on the logo. Spanking is bad, but every other way of violating a child's person is OK- what the heck.


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## AllyRae

I emailed him and asked him how dare he condone child abuse... Here is the response he sent me...a nice load of BS accusing me of beating my children. Oh, and he recommends that *I* take behavol twice a day to "control my anger regarding child abuse"... I was about to write No stupid moron...people are SUPPOSED to be angry about child abuse! Oh, and good heavens...he wants my address to send me "free samples so I can make an informed decision". After his email is my reply to that...

**
He claims he is doing "his part" to end spanking, etc. He also assumes that the majority of people who are opposed to his product are pro-spanking. He claims his product is backed by doctors and psychs, who pass the product out as free samples (and he's be *happy* to send me a free sample...







)

He says it's not a punishment, but "positive psychological manipulation" and makes discipline a clinical process...

****
Dear Sir,
How DARE you assume I beat my children. I'm sorry sir, but I think you really don't know anything about child psychology. One of the BEST theories out there for children is the Attachment Theory. Discipline doesn't have to be violent or disrespectful. My children are not spanked...I practice gentle disciple and have a child that everyone comments is one of the best behaved they've ever seen. Look at attachment theory...look at attachment parenting. Know that putting an offensive product in another person's mouth without their consent is abuse...it's NO better than people who put soap in their child's mouth.

I don't need to control my children...they are not wild animals. They are human beings that deserve respect...as a parent, it is my job to guide them...not to control them.

Don't claim to know child psychology. I can assure you that my master's degree capstone was on infant attachment and I can site several dozen studies that will prove you wrong.

~Allison


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## Mom4tot

Ally. OMG, he is a wacko. That was a great letter. Free samples! :LOL

Let us know it works.....like you would give that nut your address


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## User101

Quote:

I knew from the beginning that most of the establishment will hate Behavol.
Oh yeah. He's fighting the man.


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## wednesday

Quote:

It is not recommended to use Behavol in public places such as stores or restaurants.
No kidding...because someone just might call CPS on your child-abusing ass...


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## rainbowmoon

omg this person's explanations are absurd. I am shocked someone would use something in a "clinical" way (as described) to stop unwanted/undesirable behavior. uke:


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## fluffernutter

Quote:

Behavol is a positive psychological manipulation
_psychological manipulation_?!?!? SICK!!

I reported him too.


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## amyandelle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Apparently, the doctors and psychologists I know and trust are different than the ones you know. Not only did several pediatricians agree to help me promote Behavol they gladly accepted samples to distribute to their patients. Do you think that your education allows you to decide what's right for others?

Yeah, THAT WOULD BE THE DAY!! HOLY CRAP!! If my dd's ped handed me something like that he would sure be sorry he ever met me!!





































This is really sick!!
Amy


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## coopnwhitsmommy

psychological manipulation.

So instead of beating a child, and getting physical trauma. You beat the mind and achieve the invisible lifelong emotional and psychological effect. Hmm As long as it doesn't leave bruises it isn't abuse right?


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## AllyRae

Yeah, I like that... He made it seem like child psychologists were in the "manipulation" business. Sorry, but applied behavioral therapy is NOT about manipulation, and in 99.9999999% of cases, child psychologists use reinforcers--very very rarely punishers (I worked with severely autistic children, and even then it was ALWAYS reinforcers). This guy doesn't know a thing about psychology....


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## Vermillion

Wow... This is a kid version of that bitter apple stuff people use to stop their dogs bad behavior. Another nut bag who treats kids like animals in need of training.







:

Who is this guy anyway?? (Sorry, have yet to read everything) This is just some guy selling some product he created right, not a legit company? How do his customers know that he isn't just some whack job selling poison to squirt in a kid's mouth or something?

Gross


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## Vermillion

Quote:

Behavol is designed for children 3-7 years old. The product is not recommended for children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD or other medical conditions, nor is it intended for children with cognitive, *emotional* or developmental disabilities.
Well, even of the kid doesn't have emotional problems he/she is sure to after being abused with this product!!


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## AllyRae

He emailed again.... This guy is convinced that this is the "placebo effect"...such BS...

My response:

According to the medical and psychological field, placebos are NON-HARMFUL and NON-AVERSIVE stimuli...basically sugar water or sugar pills. Your product contains RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS cleverly disguised under the name capsicum. Sorry...that's not sour at all...it's SPICY. And peppering children's tongues is considered to be child abuse by most of the country. Using pepper on a child's tongue is not the placebo effect...sorry, no respectable researcher should tell you otherwise. And it's not "flavored water"...it's vinegar, citric acid and chili peppers in water. That is NOT considered the placebo effect at all...it's an actual aversive stimui.

Peppering a child's tongue is considered an aversive stimuli, and under Applied Behavior Analysis (which you "claim" you are doing by "psychological manipulation", which is not the same thing), it is called punishment. I have studied behavior analysis in children and animals...reinforcers were proven time and time again to be more effective and better at promoting attachment than punishers. This has been studied since Pavlov and Skinner... Not to mention, studies involving peppering a child's tongue would never be passed by an ethic's review board. However, studies where you gently shape a child's behavior by presenting positive or negative reinforcers would most likely be approved.

We weren't even allowed to use such harsh means of "discipline" on severely autistic and violent children--most respectable child behavior experts agree that positive reinforcers are the absolute best way to discipline a child. A child is not a dog--and most people wouldn't even use pepper on their dog's tongue.

Honestly, not only do I not spank, but I also respect my child to avoid violating his mouth. Children's taste buds are much more sensitve than an adult's. If a child stops a behavior because they had their tongue peppered, it may be that they're afraid. I would rather my child learn that hitting hurts other people and develop empathy for other people than to avoid hitting because I was afraid of being peppered. Showing a child empathy teaches a child empathy. Teaching a child to obey out of fear is teaching a child to be obedient out of fear... It's just common sense--children learn what they are taught. My child does not hit, he doesn't take toys, and he will hug, kiss, and pat you on the back if you are hurting. Never once was anything but positive disciple used on him. I didn't have to read books or journals...all I had to do was treat my child with the same respect I would treat any other human being. I certainly wouldn't pepper your mouth because I don't agree with you...why would I do that for my child?


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## User101

Really, if it was just a placebo effect, why not a little candy dot for the child to swallow to make their words sweet? Why violate the child by making them complicit in their own punishment and forcing them to open their mouths and consume something nasty tasting?


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## AllyRae

Yeah, this guy doesn't know what the placebo effect is... It was an effect showing that people given sugar pills believing it was medical treatment would sometimes get better just by believing they were receiving medicine. It was NEVER meant to be something harmful to put on a child's tongue... Placebos are basically plain substances--the placebo effect is not taking peppers and acid and putting it on a child's tongue. If it were really just flavored water, why not a few drops of lemon juice in water? Why not plain water? Why not water with orange flavoring? Those would all be placebos...red hot chili peppers in water, acid, and vinegar are NOT considered placebos.....


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## User101

Bingo!


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## dziejen

This guy sounds like he was damaged by being spanked in his childhood more than he realizes. His poor children. I am shocked and sick by both this product and his responses.


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## AllyRae

LOL...I'm surprised he thinks someone will give him a grant AND his study will be approved by an ethics committee when he wants to put pepper and acid on children's tongues. It's hard to get ANY study using children approved...this one would be laughed at!


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## sistermama

Sick, sick, sick


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## Mavournin

That guy is one sick freak.

We give our 3 yr old. vitamin drops in her juice every morning. She hates it and I feel bad that she thinks it tastes nasty - but at least she's getting a real tangible benefit from it.

Placebo effect my







That crap is just hot peppers. Sorry dude, that's abusive.


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## AllyRae

Ok, I'm completely done wasting my time with this guy... His latest response... Apparently, not only is this a supplement, but it's candy, AND retribution for the pain his parents inflicted on him... Um, wouldn't real retribution be to show his parents how to respect and honor children? And honestly, if it wasn't spicy, why would it take *90 seconds* or a glass of water to get rid of the taste?









Anyone else want to tell this guy why he's so contridictory that even if I didn't know any better, I still wouldn't trust his opinion because he keeps contridicting himself... I swear even my 16 month old in the middle of a tantrum has more common sense... :LOL

**
Basically he just claims that the hot pepper is just for looks..basically something to put on the label, even though he claims capsicum is high in vitamins...

Then he goes on to say that the aversion is based on cultures, and he's tested it on children of various cultures, and claims that "Hispanic children that have tested it" love it... He is thinking of selling it as a candy...









He says it stays on the tongue 90 seconds, but you can make the taste go away faster if you chase it with water (sort of the same way you'd chase medicine...)


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## pamelamama

This product may be illegal. I've just reported
it to the FDA:http://www.fda.gov/oc/buyonline/buyonlineform.htm Could you do the same? It's a very short form.


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## AllyRae

I'm on it Pamela...that may get us somewhere quicker than trying to convince the guy that he's full of it...


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## pamelamama

hey Mamas, I just realized we have some copyright concerns. We aren't allowed to reprint people's emails without their permission. ( http://www.mothering.com/mdc/copyright_concerns.html ) Can you go back and paraphrase, if you 've posted the guy's emails?


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## JessicaS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
They're using research that opposes spanking to supposedly support use of their product.

shocking: http://www.behavol.com/research.html

See how they quote natural child project??? Shocking!

OOhhh..did you contact Natural Child Project? I bet they would love to hear about it.


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## cyrusmama

OMG I feel ill. The ignorance of some people is amazing.

I would be happy to fill the form out even if I had read nothing but this line.

Quote:

However, the Hispanic children that have *tested* Behavol love this stuff
Sick A*hole


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## AllyRae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
hey Mamas, I just realized we have some copyright concerns. We aren't allowed to reprint people's emails without their permission. ( http://www.mothering.com/mdc/copyright_concerns.html ) Can you go back and paraphrase, if you 've posted the guy's emails?

Oops, I didn't know that..







I fixed it.


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## pamelamama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy*
OOhhh..did you contact Natural Child Project? I bet they would love to hear about it.

















done









I've heard back from Jan Hunt and she's in correspondence with the guy. She's asked him to remove the quotes.


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## pamelamama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Oops, I didn't know that..







I fixed it.


















thanks!


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## janhunt

Pamela told me about our statements quoted out of context on the Behavol website. I had a short email discussion with Thomas Fruth that got nowhere. His statements make no sense. He is either very naive or very manipulative.

This is what I sent him:

I define punishment this way: if a child considers it punishment, it is. Clearly most of the parents who use Behavol intend it as a punishment or at the very least as a way to force "good" behavior without taking into account the child's feelings and needs. The name "Behavol" clearly implies that this is something a parent can force on a child that will improve their behavior. The problem is that unless a child's emotional needs are met, there will always be unwanted behavior of one kind or another. If one type of behavior is punished, other types will emerge.

I don't believe that force should be used except as protection from harm. There are many creative and respectful ways to help a child learn to like vegetables, or anything else that is in their best interest. The use of force always brings unwanted repercussions, even if the desired behavior is obtained.

As for your argument that parents will trade in their belts, and take a small step toward better parenting, why shouldn't we help parents to do the very best thing possible? If we always give parents less than the best suggestions because we think that's all they can manage, isn't that self-fulfilling? I have found in my counseling that most parents are simply unskilled because of their own upbringing and truly want to be the very best parent possible. For me, that means helping them to focus on their child's needs and feelings, and not on the child's outward behavior. Behavioral modification approaches like Behavol may be better than spanking but they still focus on behavior. They do nothing to help the parent meet the child's most basic need, to be heard and respected.

As Dr. Elliott Barker wrote, "Kids who have their needs met early by loving parents ... are subjected totally and thoroughly to the most severe form of
'discipline' conceivable: they don't do what you don't want them to do because they love you so much!"

I included links to a few of our articles:

"Children Don't Really Misbehave"
"How Children Really React to Control"
"The Protective Use of Force"

But judging from his reply he either didn't read them or didn't understand them. He promised to remove our statements from his website but hasn't yet.

Thanks to everyone who is reporting this product to the FDA and eBay.

Jan

"Change the world - nurture a child."


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

What the hell is wrong with people...EW, EW, EW, EW.......
Where is Child Protective Services when we need them?????








:


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## lovemybaby

I reported this to the FDA and complained to these crooks too!

Making bucks from child torture is the sickest way to earn a living.


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## wednesday

If others want to complain to the FDA--this is the owner/registrant of the website:

Trujillo Dan
21 E. 6th Street, #317
Tempe, AZ 85281
US
+1.4807845851

Not sure what the rules are on posting that--but it is public information available to anyone who does a WHOIS search anyway.


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## User101

Thank you Jan, Thank you PamelaMama, thank you to all the mamas out there who care. When we band together we CAN get things done. They no longer sell that horrible "rod" and I bet we can get this pulled too!


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## User101

Filled in the form. It is VERY short. I think I will also add it my blog.


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## User101

Blogged it, too: )
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=...&uid=228208121


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## MamaHippo

When i was young, my mom (whom i have always adored) would put Tabasco sauce on our tongues when we did something REALLy appalling ( like when my sis told our parents to"







off" . MAN, did that ever work - that stuff BURNS mucus membranes for hours if you use a lot. We would just SEE that bottle coming out and we'd run for the hills.
I can see why this product is being marketed.
I would never use that for my kids. Even my mom no longer uses that method for my younge sis, who's 10. Even to this day I can't eat anything that tastes remotely like Tabasco ( such as buffalo wing sauce) because i immediately feel sick.

Lisa


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## User101

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaHippo*
When i was young, my mom (whom i have always adored) would put Tabasco sauce on our tongues when we did something REALLy appalling ( like when my sis told our parents to"







off" . MAN, did that ever work - that stuff BURNS mucus membranes for hours if you use a lot. We would just SEE that bottle coming out and we'd run for the hills.
I can see why this product is being marketed.
I would never use that for my kids. Even my mom no longer uses that method for my younge sis, who's 10. Even to this day I can't eat anything that tastes remotely like Tabasco ( such as buffalo wing sauce) because i immediately feel sick.

Lisa

I don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you saying you understand why people are screwed up enough to try to market this, or that you understand why it is being marketed because it is better than tabasco?


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## rainbowmoon

I am off to file the complaint. thanks for posting the info. I also sent a message to this person telling him how disgusting this is!


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## nancy926

I think MamaHippo is saying that because a similar product was used on her, and it hurt, that other parents (who are only interested in immediate "obedience", regardless of long-term consequences) probably use similar methods today, or would be willing to if they saw such a product advertised.

She's NOT saying it's a good thing.

I hope I got that right.

I think the whole concept is disgusting. I wouldn't use anything like that on my cat, let alone a child.


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## janhunt

I reported this item to eBay but also wanted to send a message. I finally figured out how to do this (they don't make it easy!)

1. Go to http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/
2. Select "Report problems with other eBay members".
3. Select "Problems with sellers".
4. Select "The problem you're having with your seller isn't listed".
7. Click on "Continue".
8. Click on "Email".
9. Type the item number (4709225277) in the small window and your message in the large window.

Here is the message I just sent (with much gratitude to those who shared some of the information and ideas I included here):
________

I have already reported this offering as a possibly banned item, but wanted to send some additional information because of the potential danger to children.

The item, "Behavol" is being marketed to parents as an aversive punishment for their "misbehaving" children. The use of this product would be considered child abuse in many states. A foster couple in DC who put hot sauce on their children's mouths for discipline were charged with abuse. The seller probably knows about this risk, because he warns purchasers "It is not recommended to use Behavol in public places such as stores or restaurants."

As this product is sold as a quasi-medicine, it may also be in violation of FDA laws. It contains capsicum, which stings, and may cause bodily harm to children who are forced to drink it (it almost certainly causes emotional harm by using force instead of emotional support, labelling children as "bad", and teaching them that life's challenges can be fixed by drinking a magic substance, setting them up for such other similar nonsolutions as drugs and alcohol).

The seller is apparently not a professional psychologist, chemist, or doctor, just a man trying to sell a magic potion to parents. Who knows what is in this product, or how clean his laboratory is? I urge you to remove this dangerous item.
__________

We are still listed on the "Research" page on the Behavol site. Thomas Fruth promised to remove our references but hasn't done so yet. Suggestions welcome!

Thanks,

Jan

Jan Hunt, M.Sc.
[email protected]

Natural Child Project
http://www.naturalchild.org/

"Change the world - nurture a child."


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## lovemybaby

The Behavol hot-sauce hawkers have a toll-free # to call: 1-877 BEHAVOL (1-877-234-2865). I left a message telling them to cut it out.

This Behavol stuff contains cayenne pepper (capsicum) which can severely burn a child's tongue. Not to mention traumatizing them for life! And they recommend using it on 3-7 year olds?? Young children's tongues are so sensitive, more so than adults'.


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## theMom

Unfortunately WAY worse than soaping a child's mouth.

I pricked my thumb with dried pepper many years ago and within 24 hours had a high fever and subsequent hospitalization for 7 days. The pepper destroyed nerve endings and tissue in my thumb, which is now permanently fused (no movement).

I am grateful for this forum and invite everyone to be very verbal and proactive in their personal lives against the abusive forms of discipline that are getting validation, recommendation and even sales promotion.

thanks!


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## muldey

This is just sick.I reported it both to ebay and the FDA.How can someone even think this is acceptable????


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## User101

Has anyone gotten any kind of a response?


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## soccerchic21

So first he is saying it is a behavior modification tool then he told someone else that it is like "candy"......so I am thinking if the child thinks it is like "candy" and they only get it when they are bad then wouldn't they be bad more often to get the "candy"?


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## janhunt

I finally found a phone number for eBay: 800-322-9266, extension 3 (for the operator). I spoke to a man who totally "got it". He said "How could something like this improve behavior?" Then he forwarded me to the "office of the president" where I left a message. I'll keep you all updated.

I think the emphasis should be on the potentially dangerous nature of the ingredients - which include capsicum (pepper) plus vinegar and citric acid - and the unknown quality of the manufacturing process - who knows how clean his lab is? Most likely, eBay would be more concerned about potential lawsuits than philosophy - though of course it never hurts to get our two cents in on that too!

In an online medical dictionary, capsaicin is described as a potential cause of "pain, irritation, and inflammation" and is "used mainly to study the physiology of pain". http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?capsaicin

If anyone gets through to someone in the president's office, please post the response.

Jan


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## AllyRae

Wow Jan...that is awesome!!! Great work!!!


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## Sativarain1

awww how sad, hopefully nobody buys this product.


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## janhunt

Here are a few points that can be made when contacting eBay:

1. Research shows it is a danger to children: "The neural toxic effects
found in neonatal rat suggests that capsaicin containing foods should not be
given to children because of the potential damage to the developing
neuroanatomy."
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_0...ipts/_130.html

2. Hot sauces that include capsaicin have warning signs: "Keep out of the
reach of children."

3. Capsaicin is the active ingredient in pepper spray. Even if Behavol were
safe for children's mouths, which it isn't, it would still be a hazardous
product to have any place where children are present.

I just found this article on "hot-saucing":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

Jan


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## p1gg1e

Thanks for the info!


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## SummerSkye

RE: Homicide Death of Jayden Kaylee McMullin, age 3, Easter Sunday, April 20, 2003, Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- It is syncrhoise that an item being manufactured and sold to be used as a method of abuse against a child, uses "hot sauce" a.k.a. cayenne pepper and is brought to my attention on Easter weekend! Perhaps the child will ask with fear at every meal "Is it 'picy?" as Jayden did! Or be forced to eat off the floor if they won't or can't eat their food because they have become so afraid and so weak! Perhaps if it is used often enough, the autopsy will report, as Jayden's does, that the frenum is missing or damaged in the child's mouth. See www.dentalcare.com/soap in regards to what the frenum is and how it's damage is an "indicator of child abuse". Also see website www.mchoralhealth.org which states "Physical abuse, sexual abuse and dental neglect are all forms of child abuse or neglect that can be manifested in the mouth." The use of hot sauce or any other "condiment" as a form of child discipline, including soap, is psychologically harmful, physically painful and emotionally demeaning; a spiritual killer. It is totally ludicrous and inappropriate and is associated with lazy, uninformed and abusive "parenting" and a need to make money off child suffering. The lightbulb seriously needs to go on in regards to this and many other forms of child abuse disguised as child "discipline". Written in memory of "Lady Bug" from her Gramma.


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## ShelleyMom2in2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SummerSkye*
! Perhaps if it is used often enough, the autopsy will report, as Jayden's does, that the frenum is missing or damaged in the child's mouth. See www.dentalcare.com/soap in regards to what the frenum is and how it's damage is an "indicator of child abuse". .

your link didnt work.
And a 'damaged' frenulum isnt a sure fire 'indicator of child abuse' my youngest frenulum is mangled. Has he ever been hot sauced? God no! He has had tylenol once and only breastmilk. He was tongue tied at birth, very severely. If someone were to examine it how would they know?
My oldest son has a similar 'injury' but to the part of skin on the top of the mouth between the lips and teeth, same 'material' as the frenulum under the tongue. He fell against the sofa when he was learning to walk and tore it. We didnt know until he was much older. Again has he been hot sauced? Nope.
Im not trying to stand up for it in anyway, I just want to make it clear that the little ones autopsys results arent right for everyone. Perhapse your link would have explained that, but since its not working I figured Id chime in with my .02

Poor girl, Ill have to ask my Mother if its a true story since thats her neck of the woods these days. It should have been in the papers and on the news.


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## luvtjones

Yikes, this ebay person lives not too far away from me....

Maybe I can find out where he lives and go picket his house? :LOL


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## janhunt

I've just had a good telephone call with a man at the Arizona FDA office. He is concerned and has sent the details to his supervisor. I'll keep the forum updated.

Does anyone have further information re the McMullin case?

Thanks,

Jan


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## ShelleyMom2in2

nak-google her name. The child was beaten to death,no one has been charged. Apparently she was emaciated and had severe bruising. I could not find mention of mouth injuries or hot saucing links







:


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## ShelleyMom2in2

oh-2 people bought that crap from his auction...poor babies


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## mainegirl

Wow...remind me never to cross Jan! :LOL

Great work, I hope they do something about it. Just shameful and wrong.


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## janhunt

I just found this article:

Suffer The Little Children: Focus On The Family And 'Hot Saucing'
http://blog.au.org/2004/08/suffer_the_litt.html

Last paragraph:

"Religious Right activists constantly extol the virtues of the family and proclaim their love and concern for children. But, as the controversy over "hot saucing" proves, at the same time they seem to be awfully creative when it comes to thinking up new ways to inflict pain on misbehaving youngsters."

Jan


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## CraftyMommaOf2

this is so sad. i've reported it as well. *sigh*


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## luvtjones

This person lives in my area -- I wonder if the local media might be interested in this story?? What do you think guys? I have some contacts...

Has anyone called this guy's 800 number and spoken to him directly?


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## janhunt

Yes, do that, it certainly can't hurt. I'll report any responses from the government.

Jan


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## TiredX2

I have virtually nothing to add that has not already been said, and better than I could.

Just wanted to point out the payment instructions:

Quote:

If you are buying this product as a gift or a *HINT* for other parents,just email their address, and your name and address will be completely confidential.
?!?!?! Can you even imagine.

Additionally, though, I was almost tempted to purchase it and then demand refund of cost plus s/h which he says he will do if you are not satisfied. If everyone did that at $4 a pop I'm guessing he would be out of business pretty rapidly.


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## Raynbow

I emailed the seller:
"What is wrong with people?
Why don't people just PARENT their children instead of seeking the easy way out by
using ridiculous products like chili pepper sauce or violence?
The day I have to resort to abusing my child like this is the day I give them up for
adoption.
What a shame. No wonder so many kids today are so screwed up.
You should be ashamed of yourself for selling this product."

And the buyer:
"Instead of using a chili pepper sauce, which has been considered child abuse by many agencies, to control your child, may I please suggest Gentle Discipline or a modified Love and Logic?
Obviously, I do not know your situation, and I am trying not to pass judgement, because I know a parent can reach desperation when nothing seems to work, but please be aware that using substances like the one you purchased can be considered child abuse and can result in your child being removed from your home.
I really hope that you find a better solution to your situation and wish you peace and happiness."

I'll probably get a "F*** off and mind your own business" but maybe it will make a positive difference...


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## Raynbow

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
Wow... This is a kid version of that bitter apple stuff people use to stop their dogs bad behavior. Another nut bag who treats kids like animals in need of training.







:

Gross









And at least a dog can bite in defense!


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## Raynbow

I think if I got this from someone as a "hint", I'd never speak to that person again and I SURE as hell wouldn't allow them around my children... guess their "problem" would be solved, then, eh? They wouldn't have to be around my offensive children anymore...


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## janhunt

I've just received this reply from the Arizona FDA:
---------------
I contacted our headquarters unit that is responsible for this type of
product. They are aware of Behavol and are reviewing it for compliance with
our laws. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Best Regards,

Terry D. Conder, Supervisory Investigator
Phoenix Resident Post/Los Angeles District


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## Raynbow

Well, I got a response from the buyer:
saying that s/he "had no idea what the stuff was" and was "just curious" and that s/he won't use it - it ended with "thanx for being nosiey".

Probably sarcastic, but who knows...

My reply:
"You are very welcome.
I consider it the responsibility of *every* adult, especially parents, to be "nosey" when it comes to families in crisis or the possible mistreatment or abuse of children. In my line of work, it is actually a legal requirement!








It is really too bad that more people do not care enough to be "nosey" - maybe if more people were, we'd have fewer families destroyed and fewer children abused and murdered.
I'm glad you chose not to use this item! The maker is actually being investigated by the FDA and also child protection agencies due to this product.
Have a great day!"


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## mama_kass

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*

Apparently, also, it is "cosmetic" capsicum. He also claimed he dropped it into his own eyes to make sure it is safe. Um... yeah.

What a total nut!


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## NaturallyMama

I am absolutely dumbfounded!!!

Has anyone gotten any new information...what about the media...this seems pretty newsworthy!


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## janhunt

As far as I can tell from searches I made today, Behavol is no longer in eBay. And our Natural Child Project site is no longer listed on the research page at behavol.com.

The first page of a Google search for Behavol lists in order:

1. The Behavol website.

2. This excellent rebuttal at http://singlenesia.com/news/date/31710202 :

Cod Liver Oil Goes Hi-Tech

Statement:
Behavol is based upon the process that behaviors can be treated the same as other health issues: There's a product or medicine to treat the symptoms. The psychology that supports the product's success is commonly known as the Placebo Effect. When a child is told that Behavol will help stop biting, or any other behavior, the child is likely to believe and realize that expectation because of the credibility of having a product designed for this purpose. Behavol also works by creating a memorable taste experience for the child, teaching them that inappropriate behaviors can have unpleasant results.

Rebuttal:
Parents today have precious little time for parenting. Now you don't have to! Behavol teaches your child everything s/he needs to know to be a productive member of society: there's a product or drug to help every problem. As a bonus, your children will also learn that parents are liars and food is punishment. What more could you want?

3. This response at http://blindingnervepain.blogspot.com/ :
"Behavol. For when you are too busy to put your kid's hand on the stove burner."

4. The MotheringDotCom advocacy discussion of Behavol.

5. A general index of sites related to punishment (including anti-spanking sites).

6. A small link at the bottom of an MSN members' page.

7. A weblog asking people to report Behavol to the FDA:
http://www.davidgray.com/dgbb/ultima...c&f=3&t=028216

This is very encouraging - if anyone considering an order for Behavol does a Google search they will find the website but also see these very negative statements.

On the other hand, behavol.com is still online. Please report this product to the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/oc/buyonline/buyonlineform.htm

The behavol.com owner is:

Trujillo Dan
21 E. 6th Street, #317
Tempe, AZ 85281
480-7845851
[email protected]

Thanks to everyone for all your help!


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## User101

Hmmmm... I guess Xanga blogs aren't google-able? I know it is on my blog as well as a few others.

Great Job, Jan- thank you!


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## janhunt

I just found the host for behavol.com:

PixelEffects
21 East 6th Street #317
Tempe, AZ 85281
[email protected]
480-784-5851

The Google results I gave above were just from page 1. There are 7 more links on page 2.

Jan


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## janhunt

Here is the letter I just sent to Pixeleffects:

I believe that you are hosting a website that is offering a dangerous product meant for children: www.behavol.com . The product, Behavol, contains capsicum (pepper) plus vinegar and citric acid. Capsaicin (the active ingredient in capsicum) is described causing of "pain, irritation, and inflammation" and is "used mainly to study the physiology of pain" (http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?capsaicin ). Children are especially sensitive to such ingredients, and severe reactions have been reported for similar products.

I am also concerned about the unknowns - the nature of the manufacturing process and the cleanliness of the laboratory producing this substance. Behavol is currently being investigated by the FDA, and eBay has banned it from their auctions as a potentially dangerous product. As a child advocate, I am also distressed to see a method that is clearly punitive portrayed as a mere "placebo". I urge you to reconsider hosting this site.

Jan


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## applejuice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*





















I hope this guy gets a dose of his own medicine.







:

He probably did - that is where he got the idea from...


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## pamelamama

Jan, you are really amazing! I am so very impressed with your work.


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## TiredX2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
Jan, you are really amazing! I am so very impressed with your work.


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## Zipporah

It's strange, i wouldn't have pegged this product as being hot at all -- in New Zealand, "capsicum" is the name for what Americans call "bell peppers", which are not hot at all, but rather sweet.


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## janhunt

I just received this email from Tom Fruth, the maker of Behavol, who clearly still doesn't "get it"::

Jan,

Here's the deal. You come up with a better recipe, and we'll market it under the same name. The ingredients are irrelevent. The next batch can be sugar water and lemon juice if that's o.k. with you. In fact I'll make super sour lemonade and still claim that it modifies inappropriate behaviors.

The FDA isn't going to do anything about this water-based product. Great job on making my site host feel nervous, though. I already gave the FDA every piece of information that they have needed or requested.

Tell me more about how Ebay has banned Behavol. They didn't notify me. Hopefully, you'll see Behavol's next promotional offer soon.

Just remember that I didn't pick this disagreement. You did. We both want violence to stop. You have volumes of well written discourse. I have a 1/2
oz. bottle of truth. Why do you insist criticizing something that you have no real basis of knowledge upon? When did you ever try or taste Behavol?...It's not the ingredients that scare you, it's the psychology...If I were you, I'd dump those pharmaceutical stocks!

Tom

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my reply:

Thank you for your effort to find a common ground. However, there is no recipe that I would want to support. You're still missing the main point, which is that I am completely opposed to all behavioral management approaches because they focus on outward behavior and ignore the real issues (the child's needs and feelings). I feel frustrated that I haven't been able to get this critical idea across to you.

I could also never support anything created in someone's home laboratory that is intended to be given to a child. Yours may be immaculate but how does a parent know that? Would you give a child something made in a
stranger's home?

These are the two reasons I and my colleagues have fought against this product. I hope you can find a more compassionate way to help children.

Jan


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## wednesday

WTG Jan!


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## Tummy

omg, sorry but that man is a total ASSHOLE!







: excuse me








Way to go Jan!!!!!!

I love how ppl think it is a great idea to teach a child that the NEED to medicate themselves with RX/OTC/WATER BASED wtfever it is... to be able to be "NORMAL".
sorry but thats what it boils down to a child thinking that they HAVE to take 'something' to be productive and function properly to the 'norm' of everyone elses standards! What are we teaching that child.. to grow up and become dependant on a drug to cope every day.. most likely this child is not going to stop and keep it at only RX meds!!!


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## CherryBomb

"Helps stop aggressive and inappropriate behaviors"

Like forcing nasty crap down your kid's throat instead of doing some actual parenting?

Gah. My SIL makes her kids drink apple cider vinegar. She kept trying to push it on me the last time we were there, until I finally told her I thought it was cruel. Then she got offended. Whatever. Being that she has to make them take it 5, 6, 7, 8 times a day, and they're all pretty badly behaved (they're spanked as well), it doesn't seem to work as well as she thinks.


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## mmmummy

that makes me so mad i want to smash a brick wall or something.
thats just..aaagh..i cant believe that. no wait,sad thing is i CAN.
stupid world..of course you dont behave because you know why something shouldnt be done,or isnt nice,or is dangerous. you behave because otherwise your "caregiver" will squirt burning hot liquid into your mouth and the thought terrifies you. and of course you do new things you shouldnt,like all children,without knowing better..and you learn if its something bad the same way. and yes that IS unsafe,inside and out!! people can just be so sick and cruel. and if someone makes it,you know someone will buy it. can this be stopped somehow?? not just the ebay ad,but the company?? there has GOT to be some law..or there should be,at least..

edited to add: havent read the whole thread yet,just reacted







: from skimming a couple of posts it looks like people are getting really involved with this and trying to get rid of it


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## IdentityCrisisMama

Jan,







Wow!!!


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## kama'aina mama

Do these anal-cranium inversionists actually not get it that the word "corporal" means simply "of the body" and that any violation of a childs space is corporal punishment?

AAARRRRRGGGGGGGGGggggggggggg!

I don't care if it's cotton candy, manna from heaven or 1000000 scoville hot sauce, the very act of FORCING your child to put it in their mouth is WRONG!!!!!!!

I would like to formally thank the choir for letting me preach to it. Hymn 117, if you please.


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## alliegad

Wow. That blows my mind. Big time.
Sick.


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