# Christian Gd mama's.. a question...



## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

I am in transition to Gd from spanking. Up to this point I believed that spanking was required in order to produce well behaved Godly children. I never thought I would be one to change my mind on it, but I even suprised myself!

So my question is right now I am not 100% on board. I know for myself personally that I should not spank, I always spank in anger and basically I am just venting my own emotions and hitting my child. I am still fuzzy on whether or not I am going to take the stand that is is not okay for ANYONE. kwim?

The argument that is in my head that I am trying to get rid of is that if spanking is done in a loving enviroment and is done my loving non-angry parents than it is an acceptable from of discipline. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to turn all my spanking friends into non-spankers, but I need more of an argument then just saying "hitting a child is wrong"

They don't see it as hitting, they see it as Godly discipline and something that is necessary. How can I help myself and others close the gap. There is that fuzzy line there. I know it is definately wrong for me but how do you approach the subject to others?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think maybe you need to concentrate on your own emotional work, your own spiritual growth, and your own convictions for awhile, and not worry about convincing others just yet. Eventually, you will have a more solid and articulate basis for your beliefs. Give yourself time.

I wonder if you maybe feel a little alone in this, and would feel more validated if you could convince others that you are right. That is understandable. But you don't really need to explain of justify anything to anyone, and you don't have to have converts to your way of thinking in order to feel good about your approach.

I wonder if it would be helpful to you to widen your circle of friends to include some non-spankers? If it doesn't already. Have you looked at the gentle christian mothers website? I'm sure someone will post a link for you. There is also a book called "Biblical Parenting," written by Crystal Lutton. I think you would find it helpful.

As far as your spanking friends -- they will learn more from observing your journey than from any argument you could present to them.

Quote:

The argument that is in my head that I am trying to get rid of is that if spanking is done in a loving enviroment and is done my loving non-angry parents than it is an acceptable from of discipline.
Causing pain to a child is not a loving action, regardless of what motivates us. Teaching a child that its possible to "hurt each other in love" is confusing and disturbing. It teaches them that its okay for people to control each other through power and pain.

When Jesus died, he fufilled the expecation that justice be satisfied for wrongdoing. He was asking us to stop punishing each other, by taking the punishment once and for all.

Another really terrific book, for a christian parent, is called "_Families Where Grace is in Place._" By Jeff VanVonderen. Its not specifically about spanking, but addresses some really solid underlying principles that are so helpful. Great book.

Do not be surprised of choosing to parent gently, without spanking, is the beginning of new things in your faith journey, as well as your parenting journey.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Good for you for realizing that hitting is wrong for your family.







I think that for now, just focusing on learning Gentle Discipline techniques and how to put them into practice will be a great first step. Read the stickies here, and check out some of the recommended reading from the lists at the top of the GD page. Also check out GentleChristianMothers.com. It's a forum dedicated to Christian mommies practicing AP/GD. All the ladies there are awesome (like here!) and will answer your questions and point you in the right direction. I read a book, titled Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton (she runs the GCM board) and it really helped me understand alot of why GD was actually biblical, and spanking is not. Basically (and I'm going to kill it, you should really try to read the whole book!) spanking was 'invented' or started in Victorian times, and it has its roots in sexual immorality. Not biblical at all. If you take the same verses that are used to advocate spanking, break them down to the original Hebrew text, and take them in the context of the times, you see that they actually mean something very different from child hitting.
THere is also a thread here, titled "Letter To Our Pastor About Spanking" if you do a search you will probably find it. Whoever started it is very articulate, and uses alot more bible terminology than I do.







It is relatively recent, so hopefully you will have no trouble finding it. HTH


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Check the articles here:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/topics/


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Mamaduck and I cross posted, sorry I said alot of what she said...But as always, I agree with everyhing she said!


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Thanks so much for your input. You are right I shouldn't worry about what others think. I guess is is just hard to stand alone and hard for me to stick up for what I am doing kwim?

As far as finding non-spankers that is a tough one. I have a few very close Christian friends and one who spanks her 10 month old already







We have both spoken our sides and we agree to disagree and I told her it would probably be best if we didn't discuss the topic anymore. I am on the lookout for non-spankers









I will definately check into those book recommendations thankyou!


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
Good for you for realizing that hitting is wrong for your family.







I think that for now, just focusing on learning Gentle Discipline techniques and how to put them into practice will be a great first step. Read the stickies here, and check out some of the recommended reading from the lists at the top of the GD page. Also check out GentleChristianMothers.com. It's a forum dedicated to Christian mommies practicing AP/GD. All the ladies there are awesome (like here!) and will answer your questions and point you in the right direction. I read a book, titled Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton (she runs the GCM board) and it really helped me understand alot of why GD was actually biblical, and spanking is not. Basically (and I'm going to kill it, you should really try to read the whole book!) spanking was 'invented' or started in Victorian times, and it has its roots in sexual immorality. Not biblical at all. If you take the same verses that are used to advocate spanking, break them down to the original Hebrew text, and take them in the context of the times, you see that they actually mean something very different from child hitting.
THere is also a thread here, titled "Letter To Our Pastor About Spanking" if you do a search you will probably find it. Whoever started it is very articulate, and uses alot more bible terminology than I do.







It is relatively recent, so hopefully you will have no trouble finding it. HTH


Thankyou, I think I remember seeing the letter at one time, but I didn't read it, I will do a search.


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## superlori (Nov 28, 2006)

Part of my reasoning for believing spanking is wrong is this: If we belong to Christ, he has taken the punishment for our sin once and for all. When we sin, we often have to face the consequences, but God does not directly punish us. That's been taken care of. We have been given grace; but that doesn't mean that we get off scot-free every time we mess up. God doesn't get us off the hook.

I believe as parents are to model Christ to our children. We ought to show our children the same grace, since Jesus has paid the punishment for their sins too. However, we cannot let them get away with sinning any more than we are allowed to. They must face the consequences of their wrong-doings as well. But to punish (violently, especially) would be unChristlike.

That's my feelings in a nutshell, I suppose.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I think if I knew someone was hitting a 10 month old baby I would strongly, strongly consider calling child protection. I know child protection can be a scary thing too, but someone hitting a 10 month old baby also scares the hell out of me.







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This kind of child abuse is what has led me to stop taking my children to church.

I am so glad for you and your children you are seeking a better way!

~Tracy


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Not to be flip, but I'm thinking to myself, What would Jesus do? I'm trying to imagine him spanking a child, and I just can't do it...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

In addition to the advice given (esp. about Gentle Christian Mothers and the letter about spanking - which talks about the "rod" verses very nicely), I have two thoughts:

The first is that the root of discipline and disciple are very close. They are both related to "pupil" and "teaching". Thus, the heart of discipline is teaching - and if we look at how Jesus taught, he did not teach harshly, did he? In fact, he was often in trouble with the religious authorities of the day for violating strict religious law and for associating with the sinners. Jesus taught through loving guidance and I hope to do the same. What did Jesus do when Peter denied him 3 times? What did Jesus do when Thomas doubted the resurrection? Jesus taught through story-telling and and example. He invited the sinners to come be with him. There are many ways to teach a child. Why is spanking privileged? How does causing pain to a child fit Jesus' way of teaching or of his redeeming us from our sins? (And honestly, I've never quite understood the Evangelical reliance on the Old Testament passages to support spanking-- didn't Jesus come to establish a NEW Covenant? You won't find spanking in the New Testament as far as I know.)

The second is a more practical point of view: How often would you (or your friends) spank if you NEVER spanked in anger. If you let yourself completely cool down? Maybe your friends are different, but honestly, once I've cooled down, I don't have any urge to spank. My rational brain sees other ways around it, it's when I'm irrational that spanking becomes an option. Spanking is, at least for me, born of anger. I can't conceive of spanking calmly, without any anger.

Oh, and another practical point is that spanking isn't really any more effective (and there are good arguments for it being less effective). To steal an example from Jane Nelsen (Positive Discipline): If your 2 year old runs into the street, and you spank them because of it, will you fell comfortable letting them play alone in the front yard the next day? No. Why? Because you still can't trust them, can you?


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Sorry for the double-post . . . my internet connection was acting up


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm in a similar place . . . actually, with my first child I was determined not to spank, ever . . . but used plenty of time-outs and other punitive methods. I did do some thing right, like teaching her "come here" by just helping her to do it, over and over again, patiently and consistently, when I asked her to. But our first child was really compliant and eager to please, and didn't require even that often. DH and I thought we were such great parents until our second child came along.

#2 was the strong-willed type who often wanted to do the exact opposite of whatever we wanted her to do. The combination of not being fully convinced (a bit of a crisis in my faith as I sorted through messages learned in a lifetime of influence growing up under teachers like Pearl, Barth, Gothard and Lindvall), being surrounded by people who believed that NOT spanking was disobeying God and harming children, and just simply not having good support or tools (in addition to the fact that my husband fairly strongly felt spanking should be a tool--albeit a seldom-used one--in our parenting toolbox), led to us beginning to spank our kids while away on a trip visiting family.

I'm ashamed now to realize how affirming various friends and family members' responses felt to me--like we had finally seen the light and were parenting more biblically, simply because we were now occasionally spanking our children. I suddenly felt more accepted and "part of the group" than I had when we weren't spanking.

I struggled with this for years--never feeling right about it, but never feeling that I had a solid enough reason to stop. We've always spanked seldom and sparsely--mostly a swat, a flick on the hand with a fingertip, etc--but still it always felt wrong to me. Also, I am convinced that even with the carefully-laid-out standards of never spanking in anger, never excessively, etc. it is literally impossible for a human being to follow 100% of those standards 100% of the time. If you spank, you ARE going to do it in a way that "exasperates" your children more often than you'd like, even if it IS possible (which I now doubt) that it can be done in a way that does not cause exasperation to the child.

I have come to feel that spanking is not a biblical requirement, although I disagree with the statements that hitting children is never dealt with in the Bible (I do agree that spanking as done today is never mentioned, but hitting/beating everyone from children to adults to slaves to criminals to animals certainly is mentioned fairly frequently). I have done some fairly extensive Bible study on the topic, which I can share more details about if you'd like.

I think it is important to remember that the Bible was written through a particular society's filter and to a people group that lived in a specific time and culture, and there are things there that may have been included "because of the hardness of [people's] hearts" or that are descriptive or intended to communicate a basic principle rather than intended to be followed to the letter for every people and culture throughout history.

Anyway, I'm currently where you are . . . making the decision to not use spanking in our home. DH is willing to agree to this, at least for the short-term.

I really want to make a commitment to not use punitive punishment at all, but honestly I'm not alsolutely convinced that it will "work" or that it will be best for the kids yet. It's certainly something I want to try, and WANT for it to work.

So far, in approaching it prayerfully, I'm seeing improvement in my kids' attitudes, my relationship with them, my additudes toward them and, as a side benefit, my attitudes toward my husband and my relationship with God.

I am saddened by the way I see certain other people parenting, but, like you, I'm not yet absolutely convinced that spanking or causing minor pain to children is always wrong in every situation. I am coming to the conclusion that it's not BEST, but going from that to the conclusion that it is always wrong, or that it is intrinsically abuse, is a much greater leap. I do know that there are people in my life who love their children dearly, practice something very similar to attachment parenting, and spank. Some of them are frustrated that it doesn't seem to be working, while others seem to have a great relationship with great kids.

As of now, the approach I'm taking, if asked or if the opportunity presents itself, is to share what God is doing in my own heart and life, and in my relationship with my kids. If you do it with the right attitude, it doesn't come across as judgemental or lecturing at all. After all, you're only sharing what's going on in your life. So far the few people I've shared it with have been very interested, and I can see that it's starting wheels turning in their heads.

Basically, my underlying philosophy at the moment is that kids need to be helped to develop appropriate skills and tools for dealing with life well, and they need to be unconditionally loved and treated with respect in the process. They need to be taught what TO do more than they need to be punished for doing what they should NOT do, if that makes sense. Also, in many cases what seems like a discipline issue is really just age-appropriate behavior or a child trying to get a valid need or harmless desire met in a less-than-ideal way. I'm learning to look below the surface and try to discern the root issue or need that must be dealt with, rather than just dealing with the surface behavior. 1 Cor 13 has been helpful to me in thinking about this. Love doesn't jump to conclusions or impatiently assume someone else's motives to be bad at the drop of a hat, KWIM?

This way of thinking from a perspective of training vs. punishment has been helpful to me.

For instance, I believe it doesn't help a young child at all to be scolded for having a messy room. That kind of response does more to cripple them with shame, make them feel bad, and cause them to believe they are incapable of tidying their room correctly (no matter how hard they try) than anything else. What they really need is to be patiently and loving guided, step-by-step, through how to tidy their room and how to keep it clean--preferably with mom or dad working beside them. They need this kind of involvement and help to keep it from being overwhelming, over and over until the skills become natural to them.

Being involved and consistent to help children learn the skills they need to function in life is more labor-intensive than just ignoring them until something triggers a lecture or scolding, but it's so much more helpful to the child.


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

I read this thread and all that I keep hearing in my mind is "my friend spanks her 10 mo old".... I just cannot fathom a 10 month old ever even having the mental capacity to ever do anything wrong... It makes me want to cry. I hope that you can see this as the abuse that it is and that you feel the urge to speak up about it, like I would if it was me. Even in places where spanking is ok, I dont think I've ever heard of it being ok for babies...


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

The first is that the root of discipline and disciple are very close. They are both related to "pupil" and "teaching". Thus, the heart of discipline is teaching - and if we look at how Jesus taught, he did not teach harshly, did he?

You won't find spanking in the New Testament as far as I know.)

See, although I agree with your conclusions about the heart of discipline being teaching, this argument that Jesus only ever was peaceful and nonviolent isn't convincing to me.

For instance, He knocked over the moneychangers' tables and drove them out of the temple with a whip. (John 2:15) He also said quite a few things like "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" and told the disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword if they didn't have one.

Spanking the way we do it today is not dealt with in the Bible, but beating and using whips or scourges are mentioned in both the Old and the New Testaments, in a number of different situations with various people groups (as well as animals).

The Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 4, compares his relationship with the Corinthian church to that of a father and his children. When he says (1 Cor 4:21), "What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?" he certainly seems to be implying (if you look at it in context) that the choice is entirely dependent on their behavior. Though he is speaking figuratively, the comparison to a father disciplining his children with a whip assumes that such a situation would be normal and acceptable in their culture--he was speaking using terms and illustrations that they would be familiar with.

The idea of God using pain to discipline his people as a father disciplines his children is repeated throughout both the Old and New Testaments (for example, in Hebrews 12--which quotes from and refers to the Old Testament on this topic quite heavily. In the Old Testament such discipline could include anything from war, to illness or death, to fire and brimstone raining down from Heaven, having to wander in the desert for 40 years, to being swallowed up by the earth or [specifically children] being devoured by a bear--all of which I would consider fairly harsh physical punishment







). Even in the New Testamant, Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for lying to God, and the punishments promised at Jesus' hand upon His return for those who reject Him (for instance, in Revelation) are quite harsh.

That's the biggest reason I have for struggling with this--it affects more than just childrearing, but also our view of God's character, the nature of the Bible, and more.

At the moment I reconcile it by drawing a distinction between prescriptive and descriptive Scripture, and believing that most of these passages deal with basic principles (i.e. train and intensively bring up your children) rather than laying down the law about specific methods (i.e. if it's not a sin to refrain from stoning our children or beating them hard enough to leave stripes, then it can't be a sin to not spank at all--it's the parental training that is required rather than the specific method of hitting them).

I look at it like slavery--God never said slavery was good, but he did lay out standards about how people could or could not treat their slaves, and told slaves to obey their masters and masters to not ill-treat their slaves. That doesn't mean we're required to have slaves today in order to obey the Bible.

But it is not such a simple and easy question to wrestle with, if you look at the whole of Scripture.


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## railyuh (Jun 29, 2005)

I agree with trying not to think to much about what other people are doing or judging whether it is right or wrong.

Personally, I do feel like spanking is wrong. I think what really gets to me is that if you use spanking as a regular form of discipline, I really think it is impossible to never ever spank out of anger. I would like to think that most parents I know don't spank out of anger or frustration, but I have a hard time believing that people who spank regularly never make that mistake. I just have a hard time believing that any parent can be so calm and collected all the time. Maybe they are all just better people than I am, but I know that if we spanked we would wind up spanking out of anger or frustration at least some of the time.

Then there is the fact that I don't think spanking is an effective form of discipline anyway.

I don't really discuss this too much with friends. Gentle Christian Mothers has a lot of good resources for a biblical discussion on spanking and discipline and that is really helpful as well. In one thread a mama pointed out this verse: 1 Corinthians 4:21, "What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness?" To me, that really says that if Paul is saying his correction comes in love and in a spirit of meekness/gentleness, then how much more should I approach my children that way.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Thank you for all the replies! I don't have time to respond right now it is getting late, I will get back to it in the am.

Thanks!


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenlaana* 
I read this thread and all that I keep hearing in my mind is "my friend spanks her 10 mo old".... I just cannot fathom a 10 month old ever even having the mental capacity to ever do anything wrong... It makes me want to cry. I hope that you can see this as the abuse that it is and that you feel the urge to speak up about it, like I would if it was me. Even in places where spanking is ok, I dont think I've ever heard of it being ok for babies...









I made that argument with her, I pointed out that even Dobson says there is no excuse for spanking a child under 18mos. I got nowhere with it sadly.


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

i think, "normal christians" never spank *in anger*. Never.
(btw, we don't spank, it is just what i have seen)


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Yeah, I was going to say that for lots of Christians, spanking is this methodical well thought out act. That actually creeps me out more than doing it in anger as a reaction to something. What you are 'supposed' to do is send kiddo to thier room to 'think about it' and calm down. Go up to room and tell child how you love them, and how *GOD* wants this for them. Calmly lay child over your knee and hit. Afterwards, there should be a time of reconciliation, where child realizes he deserves to be hit, and will actaully feel better and love the parent more. Of course if that reaction is not what you get, you should spank again, as the first time maybe didn't 'take...


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

You've received wonderful advise here. I strongly agree that you should only concentrate on your own family right now .. reading the stickies and gentle christian mothers is a great start.

I am a christian parent in the deep south .. so I fully understand the deeply ingrained spanking culture, esp in many church circles.

For me, it's simple. I believe I am supposed to model my life after Christ. I don't believe Jesus would EVER, EVER hit a child .. he would teach, and he would be kind, but he would never inflict pain to teach that lesson. That, and hitting my child would feel so fundamentally WRONG to me .. one of the first things I learned as a parent is to follow my instincts. If it feels wrong, then it probably is wrong, kwim?

Congrats on finding a better way! Down the road, your children are really going to thank you for it. I grew up in a very loving family, but with a Mom who spanked occasionally in anger. I still have issues to this day from it, and I so clearly remember the pain, embarassment and fury (a very confusing emotional combo) that it caused in me as a child. You are going to educate yourself to know better, and do better .. that's awesome! CONGRATS!!!


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
In addition to the advice given (esp. about Gentle Christian Mothers and the letter about spanking - which talks about the "rod" verses very nicely), I have two thoughts:

The first is that the root of discipline and disciple are very close. They are both related to "pupil" and "teaching". Thus, the heart of discipline is teaching - and if we look at how Jesus taught, he did not teach harshly, did he? In fact, he was often in trouble with the religious authorities of the day for violating strict religious law and for associating with the sinners. Jesus taught through loving guidance and I hope to do the same. What did Jesus do when Peter denied him 3 times? What did Jesus do when Thomas doubted the resurrection? Jesus taught through story-telling and and example. He invited the sinners to come be with him. There are many ways to teach a child. Why is spanking privileged? How does causing pain to a child fit Jesus' way of teaching or of his redeeming us from our sins? (And honestly, I've never quite understood the Evangelical reliance on the Old Testament passages to support spanking-- didn't Jesus come to establish a NEW Covenant? You won't find spanking in the New Testament as far as I know.)

The second is a more practical point of view: How often would you (or your friends) spank if you NEVER spanked in anger. If you let yourself completely cool down? Maybe your friends are different, but honestly, once I've cooled down, I don't have any urge to spank. My rational brain sees other ways around it, it's when I'm irrational that spanking becomes an option. Spanking is, at least for me, born of anger. I can't conceive of spanking calmly, without any anger.


Those are good points, I did come across some things that also suggested that spanking is not mentioned in the New Testament.

For me it IS possible to spank my almost 4 year old w/o doing it in anger. For example she took a toy from a friends house a few weeks back, I made her bring the toy back and told her that when she got home she would recieve a spanking for taking the toy. Well of course the whole way home she was begging and begging me not to spank her. We talked about it on the way home and I told her that since she apologized she wouldn't have to get her spanking. Now my problem is I never wanted to spank her in the first place! I was relieved that we settled the conflict w/o spanking and she learned her lesson. I was wondering to myself why I HAD to spank her. Why was I required to go home and spank my child kwim?

Just the thought of me HAVING to go home and give her a spanking b/c that is what is required of me didn't sit very well with me.







Which ensued more of a search for me to decide for myself where the Bible clearly points out that I must go home and inflict pain upon my child for what she has done.

I think she learned MORE of a lesson from having to experience my disapproval of her actions and just by talking about why it is wrong to take things that don't belong to you than she would have ever learned from a spanking. What can a spanking really teach you?? I can come up with a better discipline teqnique for about every issue that will teach a child more than spanking will teach.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 

As of now, the approach I'm taking, if asked or if the opportunity presents itself, is to share what God is doing in my own heart and life, and in my relationship with my kids. If you do it with the right attitude, it doesn't come across as judgemental or lecturing at all. After all, you're only sharing what's going on in your life. So far the few people I've shared it with have been very interested, and I can see that it's starting wheels turning in their heads.

I think that is a good approach, I guess it is about the only approach that we can really take.

Thankyou for sharing your story!


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Not to be flip, but I'm thinking to myself, What would Jesus do? I'm trying to imagine him spanking a child, and I just can't do it...

I hear ya there, I have thought the same EXACT thing.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lil_stinkyfeet* 
I have a few very close Christian friends and one who spanks her 10 month old already

Ugh, that is beyond disgusting and abusive.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Not to be flip, but I'm thinking to myself, What would Jesus do? I'm trying to imagine him spanking a child, and I just can't do it...

That's true!

OP, good luck in your transition to GD! You can do it.

Michele


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i only have a moment - but i'm in total agreement with mamaduck. i think you should fully focus on being the best gentle discipline parent you can be. with time, you will be an effective witness to share what is tried and trued for you.

also, there are parents that do not spank their children, and they are very negligent and terrible.....or the children are constantly screamed at or shamed -- and that's just as bad imo, if not worse. i think children can be spanked and have very good parents. i know people say ...NO! good parents don't spank....but i disagree.....but that's another thread. when i discovered i could discipline my children without screaming or shaming - it was like a wonderful gift had been shared with me. i think most of your friends will appreciate what you have discovered -- as long as you share it in love. that's my opinion anyway.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Would Jesus have hit children? No, didn't think so...


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

My parents often did send us to our rooms to give themselves time to cool off. Then they would come in calmly and have a talk with us about what we did and why we were going to be spanked, and how they hated to have to do it and it caused them pain, but God required it of them. Then they'd spank us until we cried, then hug us and comfort us. The whole formula.

My parents were wonderful, godly people who really believed this was the way to do it, and tried hard to do it correctly. But even they made mistakes and spanked out of anger or impulse, sometimes without warning, and sometimes unfairly. I think that if even my terrific parents couldn't do it perfectly, then how could I think *I* could spank without ever making a mistake?

But most of the time, I really felt that it caused my parents pain to spank, and that they were doing it because they felt it was right rather than because they wanted to. The guilt at causing my parents pain and making them have to spank me when they really didn't want to was part of the punishment, to me.

I remember one time I decided that it was so hard on my mom to have to spank me in the first place, that I wasn't going to make it worse for her by crying and making her feel even more sad. I would just accept my punishment calmly, knowing that I deserved it, and contain my emotions for her sake.

It didn't work quite the way I planned it.

Apparently she thought she didn't hit me hard enough to have an impact, so she hit me again until I cried. Then I was upset because I got hit more times than my sister did, who had been punished for exactly the same offense, and started crying out of indignation and a sense of injured fair play. That satisfied my mom that the spanking had worked, apparently.

Another time, I remember I'd been having a hard time going to sleep at night for the past few weeks. I'd ended up being spanked every night before I was able to settle down and go to sleep.

I thought about it and decided that apparently I needed a spanking in order to be able to fall asleep. So I went to my mom before I got into bed and asked her to go ahead and spank me now, so I could settle down and go to sleep. That would save both her and me all kinds of frustration, time and energy. It seemed so sensible to me. She was rather bewildered, and said she couldn't spank me BEFORE I disobeyed, or just to help me go to sleep.

I really wanted to be a good girl, so sometimes I would tell on myself and remind my parents that I was supposed to get spanked. I wanted my conscience cleansed. I really had an overwhelming sense of being a bad person who deserved punishment through much of my childhood.

I also used to take a belt or a stick and spank or whip myself because I felt I was bad and deserved it. I had this overwhelming sense of shame and guilt that I felt needed to be relieved by hurting myself, but even the pain never seemed to take it away for long.

I felt that I was such a bad person that nobody really liked me and I didn't deserve to be liked or loved, even though I knew I was loved. I knew that my family and God _loved_ me, but I didn't think that anyone--even God--could really honestly _like_ me. It wasn't until I was much older that I really began to understand God's grace and forgiveness, and His deep love for me. I still tear up when I think about the fact that He smiles when He looks at me.

I don't want my kids to feel that way about themselves, their God, and their world.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

wow purple kangaroo- that sounds crazy to me. i'm so sorry you had to go through that. my parents spanked me sometimes too - but mostly they were yellers. my folks are very northern and speak kind of loud to begin with naturally, and when they are angry - they yell and scream. my parents mostly grounded me....in 10th grade i was literally grounded the whole school year -- literally!!

my parents aren't christians per se, but when they did spank me - it was mostly because they were really ticked off....i don't remember my mom ever even hurting me though -- it was more like me running away while she swatted my butt as i escaped. or if my sisters and i were fighting in the car - she'd try to spank our legs while she drove....but we'd all be moving around like crazy so she couldn't reach us. my dad spanked me too - but i don't remember that hurting either--mostly he just screamed at me when he was angry, and that was really intimidating. he was in the military when he was younger...so it was like his nose would be almost touching mine as a teenager saying, "THE TIME IS NOW 11:03PM. YOU'RE CURFEW WAS 11:00PM. YOU ARE THREE MINUTES LATE. NEXT WEEKEND YOU WILL REPORT HOME AT 10:45PM AND YOU WILL NOT BE LATE. IF YOU CANNOT BE ON TIME - BE EARLY!" I was like







:







:

I'm still late natured to this day too!


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
My parents often did send us to our rooms to give themselves time to cool off. Then they would come in calmly and have a talk with us about what we did and why we were going to be spanked, and how they hated to have to do it and it caused them pain, but God required it of them. Then they'd spank us until we cried, then hug us and comfort us. The whole formula.

My parents were wonderful, godly people who really believed this was the way to do it, and tried hard to do it correctly. But even they made mistakes and spanked out of anger or impulse, sometimes without warning, and sometimes unfairly. I think that if even my terrific parents couldn't do it perfectly, then how could I think *I* could spank without ever making a mistake?

But most of the time, I really felt that it caused my parents pain to spank, and that they were doing it because they felt it was right rather than because they wanted to. The guilt at causing my parents pain and making them have to spank me when they really didn't want to was part of the punishment, to me.

I remember one time I decided that it was so hard on my mom to have to spank me in the first place, that I wasn't going to make it worse for her by crying and making her feel even more sad. I would just accept my punishment calmly, knowing that I deserved it, and contain my emotions for her sake.

It didn't work quite the way I planned it.

Apparently she thought she didn't hit me hard enough to have an impact, so she hit me again until I cried. Then I was upset because I got hit more times than my sister did, who had been punished for exactly the same offense, and started crying out of indignation and a sense of injured fair play. That satisfied my mom that the spanking had worked, apparently.

Another time, I remember I'd been having a hard time going to sleep at night for the past few weeks. I'd ended up being spanked every night before I was able to settle down and go to sleep.

I thought about it and decided that apparently I needed a spanking in order to be able to fall asleep. So I went to my mom before I got into bed and asked her to go ahead and spank me now, so I could settle down and go to sleep. That would save both her and me all kinds of frustration, time and energy. It seemed so sensible to me. She was rather bewildered, and said she couldn't spank me BEFORE I disobeyed, or just to help me go to sleep.

I really wanted to be a good girl, so sometimes I would tell on myself and remind my parents that I was supposed to get spanked. I wanted my conscience cleansed. I really had an overwhelming sense of being a bad person who deserved punishment through much of my childhood.

I also used to take a belt or a stick and spank or whip myself because I felt I was bad and deserved it. I had this overwhelming sense of shame and guilt that I felt needed to be relieved by hurting myself, but even the pain never seemed to take it away for long.

I felt that I was such a bad person that nobody really liked me and I didn't deserve to be liked or loved, even though I knew I was loved. I knew that my family and God _loved_ me, but I didn't think that anyone--even God--could really honestly _like_ me. It wasn't until I was much older that I really began to understand God's grace and forgiveness, and His deep love for me. I still tear up when I think about the fact that He smiles when He looks at me.

I don't want my kids to feel that way about themselves, their God, and their world.


I'm so sorry.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

http://www.stophitting.com/religion/

I didn't notice this link posted yet. It has many great articles by people of different faiths as to why spanking is not conducive to their faith.

I was spanked (and raised in a Christian home) and my mom is very bothered by the fact that we will not EVER be spanking our children. She sees it as liberal and "anti-scriptural" parenting.

The one thing that I always remind her if she brings up the whole "spare the rod & spoil the child" adage, is that "the rod of discipline" referred to in scripture was never used to hit or strike (the sheep) but was a gentle guiding tool. Picture a shepherd placing a stick in the path of a sheep that is straying from the path and gently directing them back into line. No hitting involved - even for ANIMALS!!

To be fair, I don't really consider scripture/religion to be a significant influence in how I parent - but I am very "literate" on the subject since I was raised that way. hope this was helpful!!


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

You don't have to become a crusader just yet. "Hitting is wrong" IS enough of an explanation, and if people question you on it, you can just keep repeating, "Hitting is wrong." People might look at you funny, but it's really all you have to do.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
My parents often did send us to our rooms to give themselves time to cool off. Then they would come in calmly and have a talk with us about what we did and why we were going to be spanked, and how they hated to have to do it and it caused them pain, but God required it of them. Then they'd spank us until we cried, then hug us and comfort us. The whole formula.

My parents were wonderful, godly people who really believed this was the way to do it, and tried hard to do it correctly. But even they made mistakes and spanked out of anger or impulse, sometimes without warning, and sometimes unfairly. I think that if even my terrific parents couldn't do it perfectly, then how could I think *I* could spank without ever making a mistake?

But most of the time, I really felt that it caused my parents pain to spank, and that they were doing it because they felt it was right rather than because they wanted to. The guilt at causing my parents pain and making them have to spank me when they really didn't want to was part of the punishment, to me.

I remember one time I decided that it was so hard on my mom to have to spank me in the first place, that I wasn't going to make it worse for her by crying and making her feel even more sad. I would just accept my punishment calmly, knowing that I deserved it, and contain my emotions for her sake.

It didn't work quite the way I planned it.

Apparently she thought she didn't hit me hard enough to have an impact, so she hit me again until I cried. Then I was upset because I got hit more times than my sister did, who had been punished for exactly the same offense, and started crying out of indignation and a sense of injured fair play. That satisfied my mom that the spanking had worked, apparently.

Another time, I remember I'd been having a hard time going to sleep at night for the past few weeks. I'd ended up being spanked every night before I was able to settle down and go to sleep.

I thought about it and decided that apparently I needed a spanking in order to be able to fall asleep. So I went to my mom before I got into bed and asked her to go ahead and spank me now, so I could settle down and go to sleep. That would save both her and me all kinds of frustration, time and energy. It seemed so sensible to me. She was rather bewildered, and said she couldn't spank me BEFORE I disobeyed, or just to help me go to sleep.

I really wanted to be a good girl, so sometimes I would tell on myself and remind my parents that I was supposed to get spanked. I wanted my conscience cleansed. I really had an overwhelming sense of being a bad person who deserved punishment through much of my childhood.

I also used to take a belt or a stick and spank or whip myself because I felt I was bad and deserved it. I had this overwhelming sense of shame and guilt that I felt needed to be relieved by hurting myself, but even the pain never seemed to take it away for long.

I felt that I was such a bad person that nobody really liked me and I didn't deserve to be liked or loved, even though I knew I was loved. I knew that my family and God _loved_ me, but I didn't think that anyone--even God--could really honestly _like_ me. It wasn't until I was much older that I really began to understand God's grace and forgiveness, and His deep love for me. I still tear up when I think about the fact that He smiles when He looks at me.

I don't want my kids to feel that way about themselves, their God, and their world.


That is one of the saddest things I have ever read







It really goes to the heart of the emotional damage of being hit --- many people feel that unless someone is being "beaten" with bruises and blood and all, that it isn't damaging or abusive. I am so sorry that happened to you.

*hugs*


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lil_stinkyfeet* 
I know it is definately wrong for me but how do you approach the subject to others?

I wouldn't go on a crusaide about it but I think they will SEE with their own eyes that your children won't be bratty, won't join the Church of Satan, etc., that your relationship with the children is better, less stress, no threats of spanking, no expectation of being hit. You can share your non-spanking message through your actions. SHOWING THEM is more effective than just telling people how bad they are for spanking.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
My parents often did send us to our rooms to give themselves time to cool off. Then they would come in calmly and have a talk with us about what we did and why we were going to be spanked, and how they hated to have to do it and it caused them pain, but God required it of them. Then they'd spank us until we cried, then hug us and comfort us. The whole formula.

My parents were wonderful, godly people who really believed this was the way to do it, and tried hard to do it correctly. But even they made mistakes and spanked out of anger or impulse, sometimes without warning, and sometimes unfairly. I think that if even my terrific parents couldn't do it perfectly, then how could I think *I* could spank without ever making a mistake?

But most of the time, I really felt that it caused my parents pain to spank, and that they were doing it because they felt it was right rather than because they wanted to. The guilt at causing my parents pain and making them have to spank me when they really didn't want to was part of the punishment, to me.

I remember one time I decided that it was so hard on my mom to have to spank me in the first place, that I wasn't going to make it worse for her by crying and making her feel even more sad. I would just accept my punishment calmly, knowing that I deserved it, and contain my emotions for her sake.

It didn't work quite the way I planned it.

Apparently she thought she didn't hit me hard enough to have an impact, so she hit me again until I cried. Then I was upset because I got hit more times than my sister did, who had been punished for exactly the same offense, and started crying out of indignation and a sense of injured fair play. That satisfied my mom that the spanking had worked, apparently.

Another time, I remember I'd been having a hard time going to sleep at night for the past few weeks. I'd ended up being spanked every night before I was able to settle down and go to sleep.

I thought about it and decided that apparently I needed a spanking in order to be able to fall asleep. So I went to my mom before I got into bed and asked her to go ahead and spank me now, so I could settle down and go to sleep. That would save both her and me all kinds of frustration, time and energy. It seemed so sensible to me. She was rather bewildered, and said she couldn't spank me BEFORE I disobeyed, or just to help me go to sleep.

I really wanted to be a good girl, so sometimes I would tell on myself and remind my parents that I was supposed to get spanked. I wanted my conscience cleansed. I really had an overwhelming sense of being a bad person who deserved punishment through much of my childhood.

I also used to take a belt or a stick and spank or whip myself because I felt I was bad and deserved it. I had this overwhelming sense of shame and guilt that I felt needed to be relieved by hurting myself, but even the pain never seemed to take it away for long.

I felt that I was such a bad person that nobody really liked me and I didn't deserve to be liked or loved, even though I knew I was loved. I knew that my family and God _loved_ me, but I didn't think that anyone--even God--could really honestly _like_ me. It wasn't until I was much older that I really began to understand God's grace and forgiveness, and His deep love for me. I still tear up when I think about the fact that He smiles when He looks at me.

I don't want my kids to feel that way about themselves, their God, and their world.

That is a heartbreaking story of your childhood.








I am so sorry you had to deal with that.


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## Adele_Mommy (Jun 28, 2007)

You have already received lots of good advice, but I don't think anybody mentioned books by William Sears (maybe they are on the book lists that have been referenced though).

He is an M.D., an AP advocate, and a Christian.

Here is a link to his Christian Parenting book.

In there I believe he makes the same argument CaraboosMama made about "the rod" being used to guide, not to hit, along with other arguments about how there are other ways that are more effective and less violent to guide and teach our children.

Good luck!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
For instance, He knocked over the moneychangers' tables and drove them out of the temple with a whip. (John 2:15)

I agree that it's not such a simple question if you look at all of scripture - just like the question of slavery. On the other hand, this was done to ADULTS. When possible, Jesus taught. And as I am a parent of young children, I believe it's still possible to teach. (And I'm actually somewhat on the 'firmer' side of GD, as I have and will apply logical consequences to my kids' actions, some people here woudl consider those consequences punitive.)

Quote:

That's the biggest reason I have for struggling with this--it affects more than just childrearing, but also our view of God's character, the nature of the Bible, and more.
True, but I think that we also need to view how God's character is represented through the lens of culture of the time as well. I just finished reading "The Gift of the Jews" which talks about the shift to monotheism, and it has some very interesting perspectives. I don't know how you'd feel about it, but it has given me a new perspective on the 'vengeful God' that reappears in the Old Testament.

And I think your other post outlining the negative effects that punishment had on you (essentially training you to think that you NEEDED to be punished to assuage your guilt) is a sure testament to why corporal punishment is a really bad idea. (Martin Luther, by the way, struggled with some of the same feelings.) But I ramble on and need to go teach....


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## loziermusic (Jun 14, 2007)

I like this thread. I have a 6 month old so I haven't had experience in disciplining my own child, but I know that a gentle discipline is what I'm looking for.

My thought is.. does spanking even work? I don't think spanking is a good form of discipline anyway, but even if it was.. it should be effective right? I would think the only thing it would be effective for is scaring your child into submission. I'd rather my child not be afraid of me and learn to make logical choices.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I apologize in advance if this is not too coherent--I'm posting in a hurry. Purple Kangaroo, your post brought back so many emotions--I could have written nearly all of it! I see the same struggles in so many of us who have grown up under that.







:

AttachedMama (I think that is her username







) has a wonderful, in depth response to the issue of God and punishment on her blog, www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com. Actually, her blog is now my favorite resource for Christian parenting issues.









My off-the-cuff response is this: Some cite examples of God's punishment throughout the Bible to condone corporal punishment. It is true that the Bible contains many examples of God's vengeance. In order to understand them, though, we must ask God's purpose. Generally, He was executing mature adults. There was no repentance or lesson learned, because they were dead! God's role there was of a holy judge passing sentence. Our role as parents disciplining children is different. We are acting in hope that their hearts will soften and that they will learn to act like Jesus. When our focus changes from executing vengeance to teaching a child how to walk in love with others, physical punishment is clearly out of place.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 

My off-the-cuff response is this: Some cite examples of God's punishment throughout the Bible to condone corporal punishment. It is true that the Bible contains many examples of God's vengeance. In order to understand them, though, we must ask God's purpose. Generally, He was executing mature adults. There was no repentance or lesson learned, because they were dead! God's role there was of a holy judge passing sentence. Our role as parents disciplining children is different. We are acting in hope that their hearts will soften and that they will learn to act like Jesus. When our focus changes from executing vengeance to teaching a child how to walk in love with others, physical punishment is clearly out of place.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. However, this still doesn't answer the questions for me. It seems clear to me that there are many examples in both the Old and New Testaments of God using punishment as a training tool, and not just for vengeance. *And He often compares this to parents disciplining their children.*

Hebrews 12 is clearly comparing "painful" trials and hardships to the type of child-discipline that was normal in the culture.

Quote:

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
We do know that the common methods of discipline used in that day included scourging with whips and beating, etc. It is almost certain that this is the picture that would have been in the minds of the original audience when hearing this passage. The American Standard version, which is a more literal translation, uses the term "scourge" to describe God's discipline of His children in this passage.

There are plenty of examples of instructive punishment given directly by God to His people, as opposed to simply exacting permanent vengeance. For example, the 40 years in the desert was clearly a training thing and not executing judgement. In 1 Kings 13, God made Jeroboam's hand whither and freeze in place when he reached out to harm the prophet, then restored it when the king repented.

In Luke 12 Jesus compares himself to a master away on a trip, coming home to find that his servants have misbehaved:

Quote:

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
Jesus also knocked a bunch of people flat on their backs when they tried to arrest him, remember? In 1st Corinthians 11, Paul tells the church at Corinth that many of them are sick or dying because they are treating Communion inappropriately, and uses this as a lesson to teach them to take it seriously. There are also a number of occasions where God instructs Christians to accept punishment (specifically mentioning beatings, among other things) from the political leaders of the time (which were extremely harsh and cruel in that time period), saying that they are God's instruments and exacting deserved punishment on God's behalf (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2)

Basically, the Bible was written during a time and to a people where harsh physical punishment was the norm, and was a key element of their culture. I think that certainly affects how God chose to communicate--He used comaprisons and images the people would be familiar with.

I don't think that means that we need to recreate those methods in our own cuture today. But I don't think we can escape the fact that the Bible does use such harsh terms in describing training children.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

purple kangaroo, i think it's important to remember that some of the passage you mention is in reference to pruning. if you think about a plant in your yard, there is a season that it is pruned and cut back so that in the next season it can flourish and grow. for example in verse 11:_No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it._

pruning is used as example throughout the new testament because it is something that the people could relate to easily. pruning does not mean you beat the plant, but the gardener's job is to tend to the plant and care for it, helping it to be the best it can be and produce fruit. i think you can teach your children, guide them & correct them, and discipline them in love without physical pain (and yes-- your children will resist and dislike you at times). however...imo, i see no passages anywhere that support physical punishment. of course, scripture can be manipulated to say whatever we want it too -- but i think it is more in line with God's character to say corporal punishment does not have a biblical mandate, and i don't see scripture as being contradictory to that.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
purple kangaroo, i think it's important to remember that some of the passage you mention is in reference to pruning. if you think about a plant in your yard, there is a season that it is pruned and cut back so that in the next season it can flourish and grow. for example in verse 11:_No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it._

pruning is used as example throughout the new testament because it is something that the people could relate to easily. pruning does not mean you beat the plant, but the gardener's job is to tend to the plant and care for it, helping it to be the best it can be and produce fruit. i think you can teach your children, guide them & correct them, and discipline them in love without physical pain (and yes-- your children will resist and dislike you at times). however...imo, i see no passages anywhere that support physical punishment. of course, scripture can be manipulated to say whatever we want it too -- but i think it is more in line with God's character to say corporal punishment does not have a biblical mandate, and i don't see scripture as being contradictory to that.









Sorry I lol when I saw pruning does not mean you beat the plant.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Once again, I am posting and running. I'm sorry--it has just been a crazy day. The link here deals with the Hebrews verses specifically. Did you know that the scourging part was not in the original text?

http://aolff.com/?page_id=42&page=3

I'll try to address your other points later. I appreciate your views!


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *dulce de leche*


Once again, I am posting and running. I'm sorry--it has just been a crazy day. The link here deals with the Hebrews verses specifically. Did you know that the scourging part was not in the original text?

http://aolff.com/?page_id=42&page=3

I'll try to address your other points later. I appreciate your views!


Thanks for posting the link. My response is . . .

Wow. Just wow. There are so many things to address in that article that I don't even know where to start.

The author of the article, Crystal Lutton, says that Hebrews 12:4-6 is quoting from (citing) three other Scripture passages, but only discusses two. It looks like there may be a page missing from the online version of her article, or something like that.

The two she gives are Psalm 119:5 and Revelation 3:19. I have no idea where she got this from; I have seen no other source that says Hebrews is quoting from these passages. It looks to me like she misunderstood the cross-references in her Bible (which point out where similar ideas are discussed or the same word is used elsewhere, rather than what's actually being quoted).

To say that Hebrews 12 is citing Revelation doesn't make sense, since Hebrews was written before Revelation. The author of Hebrews can't have been quoting a book by someone else that hadn't been written yet, KWIM? It isn't a citation, even though the idea of God disciplining His children is found in both passages.

Crystal Lutton says,

Quote:



*2. Psalms 119:75*

Psalm 119 is titled "Meditations and Prayers Relating to the Law of God" and this particular verse reads:

"I know, O Lord, that Thy judgments are righteous, and that in faithfulness Thou hast afflicted me."

David is talking about what he has gone through and the suffering he's experienced for his sinful choices. In God's Law things are outlined along with their consequences and he's acknowledging that he has deserved what he's experienced. This is the understanding of a mature and humble man who realizes the fact that he has done wrong and is acknowledging so before the Lord.


Again, Paul or whoever authored Hebrews (it's debatable who wrote Hebrews) isn't actually quoting this passage in these verses. It's just another verse that deals with a similar basic idea.

Also, I have no idea why she's quoting the chapter title, as that's not actually part of the Scripture. Chapter titles are just something the translators add to help people find their place and to kind of summarize what each passage is about; they're different in every translation and are not part of the inspired Scriptures or the original manuscripts.

It is interesting to note, though, that the righteous judgment which David says he deserved and that God "afflicted" on him "in faithfulness" was that God killed David's little son as a punishment for David's adultery and the murder he committed to try to cover it up (2 Samuel 12). Hardly an example of mild, loving natural consequences that have no physical element and don't cause actual physical pain to anyone (um, the baby DIED as punishment for his father's sin).

The Old Testament passage that was actually being quoted was Proverbs 3:11-12. The quote in Hebrews is from the Septuagint, the 200 B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.

I assume Lutton is referring to Prov. 3:11-12 when she says,

Quote:



But in the Hebrews text we have this pesky use of the word "scourges" which definitely means to beat and hurt. The thing is, that's nowhere in the original verses. They are found in the Septuagint . . .

I contacted the head of the Aramaic Society . . . In the version of the Bible they are releasing, this is how the passage reads for verse 6: "For those whom the Lord loves He chastens him, and disciplines the son in whom He is pleased." I was assured that in the oldest versions of this text the idea of scourge is nowhere present. Discipline yes. Scourge no. This would be a more accurate representation of the verses being cited.


Okay, this is confusing. Obviously Hebrews was originally written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew. It is apparently true that Proverbs 3:11-12 did not contain a word equivalent to scourge. The original Old Testament manuscripts read roughly the way she said for Proverbs 3:11-12. So, in that sense the "original manuscripts" of Proverbs 3--the Masoretic texts written in Hebrew or Aramaic--do not contain a word equivalent to scourge or beat in that particular passage, although they do in other passages dealing with God's discipline for sin.

HOWEVER, the word translated "scourge" is definitely present in the original manuscripts of Hebrews 12. Hebrews was written in Greek, and the Greek word there is μαστιγοι, pronounced "mastigoo". It literally means whip, flog or scourge, and was also the word used to refer to flagellatum, the Roman whips used to punish criminals (the type of whip Jesus Himself was most likely beaten with before His crucifixion). The Latin Vulgate uses the word _flagellat_ in this verse, which of course means flagellates or whips.

Quote:



Apparently the word "scourge" first appears in the KJV and then is translated back into Greek texts by later translators. This is supported by the fact that the references in the study Bible are for Strong's dictionary which is the dictionary for the KJV.


That is simply not possible. The word mastigoo (scourge) is in all of the major Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The original writer of Hebrews put the word scourge in there.

There is no way whatsoever that thousands of years later someone went back after the KJV was published in 1611 AD and somehow managed to make the word magically appear in the Septuagint (written around 200 BC), the Greek manuscripts (<100 AD), the Latin Vulgate (390 AD), the early English and German translations written hundreds or thousands of years before the KJV or Strong's Concordance were ever even thought of. They all contain some version of the word scourge.

The fact that Lutton's particular study Bible (whichever version it is) happens to refer to Strong's Dictionary doesn't mean anything about how the word scourge got into that verse.

*The word mastigoo is in Hebrews 12:6 because the author of Hebrews put it there.* He was quoting a verse from the Septuagint that talked in figurative terms about God scourging/punishing people who sin as fathers scourge/punish their children. Paul chose to use that verse from the Septuagint, including the concept of scourging together with the idea of fathers punishing their children, as an illustration of how God interacts with believers. So, the word scourge wasn't in the Hebrew text of Proverbs 3, yes. But Paul or whoever took _a translation of Proverbs 3 *that included the word scourge* _ in reference to discipline (God's and parents') and said, "that's similar to the way parents discipline their children."

Now, I do agree with Lutton's conclusion that Hebrews 12 doesn't mean we're required to beat our kids, but I feel that her exegesis of this passage is sadly lacking. I find such misunderstanding and misapplication of the Bible worrisome, coming from someone who is a professional pastor/teacher/writer instructing people about what the Bible teaches in this area.

The point of Hebrews 12 is NOT to tell parents they need to beat their children. It's simply telling people to accept pain and difficulty in their lives as God's loving discipline of them, comparing it by way of illustration to the way loving parents discipline their children. The description of child discipline in the passage is descriptive--an illustration to make a point--rather than prescriptive. It's not intended as an instruction for how to discipline children. But it seems to me that it does assume that physical discipline of children is a normal and acceptable thing in the author's time and culture.

Apparently whoever wrote Hebrews felt it was appropriate to compare a verse that talked about God scourging sinners with a whip (in figurative terms) to a loving parent disciplining their children (in actual terms). As I was saying, such discipline was probably the cultural norm of the day and a visual picture the readers of that culture would understand and relate to.

I do NOT mean to say that this at all means we should beat our kids. But, to me, I cannot say with intellectual honesty that the word scourge wasn't in the original text of Hebrews 12, that it doesn't mean to beat someone with a whip, and that the passage doesn't relate it to disciplining children as an illustrative example.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
purple kangaroo, i think it's important to remember that some of the passage you mention is in reference to pruning. if you think about a plant in your yard, there is a season that it is pruned and cut back so that in the next season it can flourish and grow. for example in verse 11:_No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it._

pruning is used as example throughout the new testament because it is something that the people could relate to easily. pruning does not mean you beat the plant, but the gardener's job is to tend to the plant and care for it, helping it to be the best it can be and produce fruit. i think you can teach your children, guide them & correct them, and discipline them in love without physical pain (and yes-- your children will resist and dislike you at times). however...imo, i see no passages anywhere that support physical punishment. of course, scripture can be manipulated to say whatever we want it too -- but i think it is more in line with God's character to say corporal punishment does not have a biblical mandate, and i don't see scripture as being contradictory to that.

I agree with your conclusions, that *"corporal punishment does not have a biblical mandate, and i don't see scripture as being contradictory to that."* That, I agree with wholeheartedly.

But I simply cannot look at Scripture and honestly say that physical pain as a method of punishment is never mentioned. I agree that it is not commanded or required, but it is certainly mentioned.

I am a bit confused as to why you say Hebrews 12 (or any of the other passages I quoted) is referring to pruning . In context, it's talking about the trials that were being endured by Christians, including beatings and martyrdom. It is also talking about running with endurance the race set before them, resisting sin, and accepting pain and hardship as loving discipline from God's hand. It doesn't mention pruning, although it does use the word "fruit" once. Hebrews 12 is the "cloud of witnesses" passage.

Just before, in the end of Hebrews 11, it gives a pretty graphic and painful series of examples of the kind of pain and hardship being referred to:

"Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated- 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Hebrews 12 then begins in the next verse with the word "Therefore," showing that it directly flows out of Hebrews 11. These are apparently the types of things God is calling His loving discipline.

You are right, though, that God does use pruning as a picture of His discipline throughout Scripture. In John 15 and Isaiah 18:5 God uses pruning as a picture of discipline, saying that those who disobey Him will be cut off from the vine and thrown away or burned.

I'm not quite clear, though, on why you see pruning as a clear example of gentle, painless discipline--it doesn't mean beating the plant, but it does mean literally cutting off parts of the plant with a knife. The passages that talk about pruning are comparing those being disciplined to the parts that are cut off, not the parts that are left to grow. John 15 does say that those who repent can be grafted back in after having been cut off the vine, showing God's grace and forgiveness that comes with repentance.

Matthew 3:10, 7:19 and Luke 3:9 all talk about trees that do not bear fruit being cut down and/or cast into the fire. A number of Old Testament passages talk about even plants with fruit on them being cut down, burned or severely pruned as punishment for sin. (Is. 18:5, Jer 11:16-17, Ez 19:10-14)

Jesus had an interesting interaction with a plant Himself in Mark 11 (also mentioned in Mt 21:19):

Quote:

12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

. . . 20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
It wasn't the season for the tree to be bearing fruit, so I don't understand at all why the tree deserved to be punished.

All this is just so hard for me to sort through. There is example after example of God dealing with sinners harshly in both the Old and New Testaments--even Jesus called people things like serpents and whited sepulchers and was quite harsh with the unrepentant, the Pharisees and the hypocrites.

I keep having to go back to the passages that are clearly intended to be prescriptive, that tell us how to interact with others in the body of Christ, like I Cor 13 and all the passages that talk about speaking the truth in love, restoring gently those who are in sin, bearing one another's burdens, loving and submitting to one another, treating each other with respect, etc.

I liked a comment that someone made earlier that exacting vengeance is God's job, and we're not God. We are called to train up our children and not exasperate them, not to exact vengeance upon them or judge their hearts.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
*I agree with your conclusions, that "corporal punishment does not have a biblical mandate, and i don't see scripture as being contradictory to that." That, I agree with wholeheartedly.*

oh good. i was misunderstanding your post than. sorry









*But I simply cannot look at Scripture and honestly say that physical pain as a method of punishment is never mentioned. I agree that it is not commanded or required, but it is certainly mentioned.*

yes, i agree with you.

*I am a bit confused as to why you say Hebrews 12 (or any of the other passages I quoted) is referring to pruning . In context, it's talking about the trials that were being endured by Christians, including beatings and martyrdom. It is also talking about running with endurance the race set before them, resisting sin, and accepting pain and hardship as loving discipline from God's hand. It doesn't mention pruning, although it does use the word "fruit" once. Hebrews 12 is the "cloud of witnesses" passage.*

in reference to hebrews 12:11 (which is the only verse i mentioned): _11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it._

it does reference pruning, even though it doesn't directly say that. "producing a harvest" is what takes place as a result of being planted, tended to, pruned, and cared for. it is a lengthy process that cannot be neglected at all...or you will not see the harvest bring forth the fruits of your labor.

*Just before, in the end of Hebrews 11, it gives a pretty graphic and painful series of examples of the kind of pain and hardship being referred to:

"Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated- 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."*

Hebrews 11 is referred to as the "Faith" Chapter. Thats why every paragraph begins with the words "By Faith...." People who were flogged, stoned, cut in half, beaten, and killed were being persecuted by christ' opponents, but they embraced their faith above all til the very end.

*Hebrews 12 then begins in the next verse with the word "Therefore," showing that it directly flows out of Hebrews 11. These are apparently the types of things God is calling His loving discipline.*

Hebrews 12 reminds us that we need always cling to our faith & to continue forward in spite of opposition and persecution, and anything else that hinders us from living out our faith in Christ. The NT often refers to living out our faith as a race. the hebrews being addressed in this letter were getting weary and wanting to quit before they finished the race. paul was encouraging them to stay in the race to the finish line. in reference to Hebrews 12:7-13, I think it is clear that the discipline taking place is the hardships we endure throughout life, as well as the consequences of our actions.

*You are right, though, that God does use pruning as a picture of His discipline throughout Scripture. In John 15 and Isaiah 18:5 God uses pruning as a picture of discipline, saying that those who disobey Him will be cut off from the vine and thrown away or burned.

I'm not quite clear, though, on why you see pruning as a clear example of gentle, painless discipline--it doesn't mean beating the plant, but it does mean literally cutting off parts of the plant with a knife. The passages that talk about pruning are comparing those being disciplined to the parts that are cut off, not the parts that are left to grow. John 15 does say that those who repent can be grafted back in after having been cut off the vine, showing God's grace and forgiveness that comes with repentance.*

From Wikipedia: Pruning: "Pruning in landscaping and gardening is the practice of removing diseased, non-productive, or otherwise unwanted portions from a plant. The purpose of pruning is to shape the plant by directing plant growth, to maintain the health of the plant, or to increase the yield or quality of flowers and fruits. Proper pruning is as much a skill as it is an art, since badly pruned plants can become diseased or grow in undesirable ways."

I agree that pruning can be painful -- of course







but thank God he uses this as an allegory, and not a literal application. the correlation is that when God is at work in our lives, we find the unproductive and diseased habits that we hold onto being pruned from who we are. As we grow in Christ, His character grows in us. our very being begins to reflect who He is. i think "pruning" is a beautiful and accurate depiction of what Jesus does in our hearts as we grow in Him. consequences can be very painful sometimes, as can life's natural hardships. i think logical and natural consequences can be very difficult for a child, and they do not include any physical pain, yk? but there are valuable lessons to be learned from them.

*Matthew 3:10, 7:19 and Luke 3:9 all talk about trees that do not bear fruit being cut down and/or cast into the fire. A number of Old Testament passages talk about even plants with fruit on them being cut down, burned or severely pruned as punishment for sin. (Is. 18:5, Jer 11:16-17, Ez 19:10-14)

Jesus had an interesting interaction with a plant Himself in Mark 11 (also mentioned in Mt 21:19):

It wasn't the season for the tree to be bearing fruit, so I don't understand at all why the tree deserved to be punished.

All this is just so hard for me to sort through. There is example after example of God dealing with sinners harshly in both the Old and New Testaments--even Jesus called people things like serpents and whited sepulchers and was quite harsh with the unrepentant, the Pharisees and the hypocrites.*

Jesus didn't deal harshly with sinners. He loved them and befriended them, and did not judge them. He dealt harshly with hypocrites. He was so angry at the fig tree because from a distance it looked like it should bear fruit. but upon closer inspection, it was barren. the tree "looked like" something it wasn't. After a fig tree has leaves, it gets a crop of small knobs that look like green almonds (not the real figs), but they preceed the real fig. They were often eaten by peasants. when they mature, they drop off on the ground. these precursors of the true fig are called taqsh in palestinian arabic. the true fig comes some 6 weeks later. so, as mark says, "the time for figs had not yet come". but did you know if the leaves appear without any taqsh, than that means there will also be no figs at all. it was a barren and fruitless tree. since Jesus found "nothing but leaves" - leaves without any taqsh- he knew that it was an absolutely hopeless, fruitless fig tree and said as much.

*I keep having to go back to the passages that are clearly intended to be prescriptive, that tell us how to interact with others in the body of Christ, like I Cor 13 and all the passages that talk about speaking the truth in love, restoring gently those who are in sin, bearing one another's burdens, loving and submitting to one another, treating each other with respect, etc.

I liked a comment that someone made earlier that exacting vengeance is God's job, and we're not God. We are called to train up our children and not exasperate them, not to exact vengeance upon them or judge their hearts.*


i agree. there are so many wonderful and rich passages of scripture that reveal God's loving nature. one of my favorite verses in the bible says "the wrath of man can never produces the righteusness of God". that is so true. i really understand what you are saying - and i hope you understand what i was trying to say. i'm glad you don't feel compelled by scripture to spank. even though there are many references to physical punishment -- when you think of children, remember how jesus held them in such high regard. hugs to you mama.


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

1John 4:18

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lil_stinkyfeet* 
You are right I shouldn't worry about what others think. I guess is is just hard to stand alone and hard for me to stick up for what I am doing kwim?


Maybe it would help if you didn't think of yourself as having to defend your choices in using gentle discipline. I bet the feeling you get is similar to being out in public and tripping on the sidewalk. You think a lot of people are staring and making fun, but in reality no one saw it and those who did forgot within 2 minutes







. Unless you and your friends have a very different dynamic than me and my friends I can't really see them caring about your discipline choices as much as you think they do.

Just IMO.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Maybe it would help if you didn't think of yourself as having to defend your choices in using gentle discipline. I bet the feeling you get is similar to being out in public and tripping on the sidewalk. You think a lot of people are staring and making fun, but in reality no one saw it and those who did forgot within 2 minutes







. Unless you and your friends have a very different dynamic than me and my friends I can't really see them caring about your discipline choices as much as you think they do.

Just IMO.

They do and they don't, I guess it is just different b/c I have one friend that seems to especially care since she is so adament that we are required to spank that she sees not spanking as something that is wrong and going against God's will. She is also the friend that I chose to stop discussing it with though


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

They do and they don't, I guess it is just different b/c I have one friend that seems to especially care since she is so adament that we are required to spank that she sees not spanking as something that is wrong and going against God's will.
Well, in some ways you are very similar. You would both feel more confident in your choices if you had the validation of a friend who follows your lead. Thats a very human inclination. But in the end, each of you will answer only for yourselves.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Elizawill, we basically agree: God uses painful circumstances and natural consequences to discipline us, and sometimes those are literally physically painful and sometimes they're not. We're supposed to train our children and teach them what they need to know, but there is no place where the Bible clearly commands us to do this by hitting them. (There are, however, plenty of places where it specifically instructs us to teach them verbally, and gives examples of this.)

What I have a hard time with is the people who say that God would never, ever use physical pain or other punitive punishment to discipline or train anyone--that it's against God's nature. I don't see that supported in Scripture at all. There are too many examples of it.

What makes sense to me at the moment is this way of thinking about it:

There's a big difference between God and human parents, in that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-wise; understands our thoughts, motives and future potential perfectly; and can tailor the punishment he metes out perfectly to fit our needs, strength, etc and to address what's going on in our innermost hearts. He knows exactly what type and how much punishment to give to bring about repentance. He has also promised never to give us more than we can bear, and he knows exactly how much we can bear.

He knows when someone is past repentance--and it seems that the harshest penalties like death or His illustrations of trees being cut down or branches being cut off are generally in regards to people who He knows are not going to repent and turn to Him. Your interpretation of the fig tree story would fit in there--it was beyond hope, so Jesus killed it.

If we turn to God in repentance and submission He responds in gentleness and grace, but those who ultimately reject Him will be punished in a very severe and permanent way.

As parents, it's not our job to decide when our kids are hopeless or have reached the point of ultimately rejecting God. Only God can judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. And even if it was possible for us to do that, it's not our job to punish them for it--that's God's arena.

Our job is to teach and instruct our children, treat them with love and respect, avoid exasperating them, and help them learn the skills they need in order to treat others with love and respect and to love God and others. I don't feel that spanking is the most effective way to teach this. The most effective way to teach children things like empathy, love, honor, obedience and repect is to model it in our behavior toward them and others, and to proactively help them practice it.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Thank you to everyone who responded to my account of how spanking "done right" affected me as a child. I'm glad if it was helpful to anyone.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Elizawill, we basically agree: God uses painful circumstances and natural consequences to discipline us, and sometimes those are literally physically painful and sometimes they're not. We're supposed to train our children and teach them what they need to know, but there is no place where the Bible clearly commands us to do this by hitting them. (There are, however, plenty of places where it specifically instructs us to teach them verbally, and gives examples of this.)

What I have a hard time with is the people who say that God would never, ever use physical pain or other punitive punishment to discipline or train anyone--that it's against God's nature. I don't see that supported in Scripture at all. There are too many examples of it.

What makes sense to me at the moment is this way of thinking about it:

There's a big difference between God and human parents, in that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-wise; understands our thoughts, motives and future potential perfectly; and can tailor the punishment he metes out perfectly to fit our needs, strength, etc and to address what's going on in our innermost hearts. He knows exactly what type and how much punishment to give to bring about repentance. He has also promised never to give us more than we can bear, and he knows exactly how much we can bear.

He knows when someone is past repentance--and it seems that the harshest penalties like death or His illustrations of trees being cut down or branches being cut off are generally in regards to people who He knows are not going to repent and turn to Him. Your interpretation of the fig tree story would fit in there--it was beyond hope, so Jesus killed it.

If we turn to God in repentance and submission He responds in gentleness and grace, but those who ultimately reject Him will be punished in a very severe and permanent way.

As parents, it's not our job to decide when our kids are hopeless or have reached the point of ultimately rejecting God. Only God can judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. And even if it was possible for us to do that, it's not our job to punish them for it--that's God's arena.

Our job is to teach and instruct our children, treat them with love and respect, avoid exasperating them, and help them learn the skills they need in order to treat others with love and respect and to love God and others. I don't feel that spanking is the most effective way to teach this. The most effective way to teach children things like empathy, love, honor, obedience and repect is to model it in our behavior toward them and others, and to proactively help them practice it.


yes, ITA


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

I know this is a very old thread, but I wanted to post and say that the book _Heartfelt Discipline_ by Clay Clarkson (recommended by someone on here) was really helpful for me to read.

It dealt honestly and in what seemed to be a theologically sound manner with the passages and questions that were bothering me, and that I raised in this thread. The author concludes that spanking is neither explicitly forbidden nor ever required or directly recommended in the Bible, but feels pretty strongly that it's not the best approach and that grace and understanding in parenting are the most helpful and Christlike approach to parenting.

He shows how nurturing, loving, teaching, understanding, grace-filled parenting is consistent with Scripture and with God's character. He also makes a pretty convincing argument that the passages that clearly do talk in a non-figurative way about beating with a rod are referring to teens and adults, not to young children. If I remember right, he talked about how this related to the culture of the time, too, and doesn't mean we should follow suit today.

I highly recommend the book. Don't skip the footnotes, either--they often answered my "but, what about . . . " thoughts as I was reading the book.


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