# I think we're going to nightwean.. UPDATE #56



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

After my last thread, we had 6 good nights in a row! DS was only waking every 2 hours, and I think he even had a 4 hour stretch last week!







I was hoping we had reached a turning point in his sleep patterns (which is average waking every hour (or more) to nurse, and waking for the day at 5 AM) and that I wasn't going to have to do anything to change it. Waking every 2 hours, and sleeping until 6-7 AM felt like heaven for a whole WEEK!

Then, last night he was back to waking every hour. He even stayed awake from 3-4 AM and wouldn't go back to sleep. I felt like I was being tortured all night again.









Also, last week we noticed several spots on DS's teeth that looked like some decay. We took him to the dentist and he has 2 cavities that need to be filled, as well as a chipped tooth (he chipped his front tooth around 10 months old) that is going to need a baby root canal as well as a cap of some sort. (FTR, DS gets no juice or sweets and we brush his teeth VERY well every night) I know the research says BM doesn't cause tooth decay, but with these dental problems so early, I think it would probably be best to decrease nursing at night when his teeth can't be brushed....

Anyway, the point of the thread..









DH and I have decided we should nightwean DS. I am planning to try the Jay Gordon plan, although probably from hours 10-5 considering DS's normal sleep-time is from 7-5/6. I will probably draw it out a little longer than 10 days.. Maybe a week for each "phase." I am also planning to make a little book for DS, like a "Goodnight Liam" book that focuses on the differences between night and day, and how when the moon and stars are out we sleep and the milks sleep and in the morning we wake up and he can have milks again.

I am really nervous about this going poorly, but if anyone has any advice on how to make it easier on us/DS that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

That's about the age I nightweaned my DD. It took 2 days. You'll know pretty quickly if he's ready.







:


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## sarahdavida (Mar 21, 2008)

I am in the slow process of nightweaning my DS (34 mos.) I don´t have any great advice - and am not familiar with the Jay Gordon plan - I am just going by my gut as to what the steps are and how long they should last - and trying to be patient.

I tried a couple times earlier on, but DS was clearly NOT ready and as tired as I was by it at times, I knew I just had to keep going and wait until he was more cognatively and emotionally ready...

it seems to be going o.k., although we are still very early on - the first step being falling alseep in the first place without nursing (I still lie next to him, though, for now, until he is asleep). It has been 8 nights and so far, so good. I might make tonight the first night of "not nursing when he night-wakes and see if he will go back to sleep without too much trauma" - we´ll see...I´m playing it by ear in the moment...I´m pretty sure this will be a harder step since he already had some experience with the first step with other people - and since we will both be tired and cranky and just want to go back to sleep

But again, I realized with DS that since I didn´t do it very early on (too early), I had to wait until much later for the nightweaning. Iif I had really NEEDED to do it, I migh have pushed earlier, but I was willing - and mostly happy - to continue until he got old enough to be able to handle it better...

I will be taking him to his first dentist visit very soon - and hope it´s not too bad...

Good luck!


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm terribly confused about the tooth problems. My dd is almost 4 years old, and goes to bed with a full sippy cup filled with formula, everynight. She drinks on and off all night, and she has no dental problems what so ever. *for those who are questioning, she has some SN's*

I'm wondering if maybe there are other factors, not milk, that are causing the dental issues. Untreated acid reflux?


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

I think each child's enamel is different and may therefore react differently to different circumstances.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maluhia* 
I think each child's enamel is different and may therefore react differently to different circumstances.











He did have reflux as an infant, but seems to have outgrown it (doesn't show any symptoms) so that could be a factor contributing to the tooth decay. I know plenty of people who give their kids bottles of juice, and milk in bed, and don't brush and their kids have perfect teeth. Liam obviously has issues for whatever reason, and nursing every hour all night long can't be helping. FWIW, the dentist we saw said the reason for the cavities was because of "nursing on demand." I don't think that is the reason behind it, but I'm sure it could have contributed. According to this study, when breastmilk mixes with food particles it causes more decay to the teeth than the food alone.

We had decided to nightwean at some point in the near future (still haven't decided exactly WHEN we are going to start) before the teeth issues. Mainly because I can't keep waking up every hour or more all night long anymore.


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## bam (Jan 18, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 
I'm wondering if maybe there are other factors, not milk, that are causing the dental issues. Untreated acid reflux?

It could be as simple as genes.


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## bam (Jan 18, 2010)

_LadyCatherine185,

I would recommend No Cry Sleep Solution by Pantley for nightweaning. It's a gentle approach compared to the others out there. Check it out before you commit to Gordon's. I am using NCSS and having good results without the drama and stress.
_


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## sunfish21 (Jun 4, 2009)

Not much advice but encouragement here. I nightweaned DD at 21 months and we are finally sleeping through the night. We went over how we were going to have nummies before bed and that they were going to go night-night until the morning. I quit nursing in bed before sleep--we nurse in the rocking chair and move to the bed when it is time to sleep.

I was so worried about it and there were literally a few moments that were hard but it was very easy for us, and I am guessing long overdue. Good luck!

FWIW, my dad is a dentist, sees no problem with nursing through the night in terms of teeth and would agree that genes/enamel are different for everyone. That said, you may want a second opinion before starting dental work on your DS. Although something like a cavity seems pretty easy to diagnose I know there are times it is just shading, etc...


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## karebear217 (Jun 19, 2009)

Best of luck to you! I nightweaned around 15 months (to get AF back) and it was so much less traumatic than I thought it was going to be! DS was more confused than anything - He cried for a minute or two, and then he was happy, just wide awake for a couple of hours until he figured out he was supposed to go back to sleep without nursing. And that was it! He never asked for it at night again! I hope it will be the same for you!


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

Have you looked into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptococcus_mutans ?

It is a bacteria that is passed from mother/father to the child - it's a HUGE contributer to dental caries and removing the bacteria by wiping/brushing is the only way to take care of it. Oh, and by constantly rebuilding the tooth enamel - the bacteria tends to break down enamel faster than the tooth can rebuild naturally without help.

Mothering had an article on it a while back actually.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

Oh, also, milk and cheese (and I'm assuming breastmilk applies though it is not specifically mentioned) is supposed to help in reducing the acid in the mouth after meals- so nursing through the night actually might have helped in keeping his mouth alkaline vs. acidic. We've had similar problems with both my and DD's teeth, so I've looked into this.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bam* 
_LadyCatherine185,

I would recommend No Cry Sleep Solution by Pantley for nightweaning. It's a gentle approach compared to the others out there. Check it out before you commit to Gordon's. I am using NCSS and having good results without the drama and stress.
_

We've tried Pantley's methods with no results. Like I said I plan to drag out Gordon's method and continue cosleeping. I just need some sleep. Getting an hour at a time (or less) for 18 months is causing me to go crazy.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalamos23* 
Oh, also, milk and cheese (and I'm assuming breastmilk applies though it is not specifically mentioned) is supposed to help in reducing the acid in the mouth after meals- so nursing through the night actually might have helped in keeping his mouth alkaline vs. acidic. We've had similar problems with both my and DD's teeth, so I've looked into this.

Thanks for all that info! We have started wiping his teeth more, squirting them with water, etc. I ordered some Xylitol wipes online yesterday, I now give him a multi-vitamen with extra calcium, as well as starting to use a flouride toothpaste (Tom's silly strawberry for kids). He has a dairy allergy so he can't have any other milk, or cheese, etc. but I was reading about MI Paste, which uses Casein from cow's milk to rebuild teeth.. so I think it probably only applies to cow's milk. But, maybe not! I just think him constantly having food (during the day) and milk on his teeth can't be good for already weak enamel. But, like I said, the teeth were sort of a last straw reason for us to try nightweaning.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunfish21* 
Not much advice but encouragement here. I nightweaned DD at 21 months and we are finally sleeping through the night. We went over how we were going to have nummies before bed and that they were going to go night-night until the morning. I quit nursing in bed before sleep--we nurse in the rocking chair and move to the bed when it is time to sleep.

I was so worried about it and there were literally a few moments that were hard but it was very easy for us, and I am guessing long overdue. Good luck!

FWIW, my dad is a dentist, sees no problem with nursing through the night in terms of teeth and would agree that genes/enamel are different for everyone. That said, you may want a second opinion before starting dental work on your DS. Although something like a cavity seems pretty easy to diagnose I know there are times it is just shading, etc...

Thanks for the encouragement!

The dentist we saw has been in practice for a long time (15-20+ years) and was recommended by a LOT of people. My husband saw him when he was a kid, all my cousins saw him, etc. so I trust him to do a good job on the dental work and to know what he is doing.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Our pediatric dentist told us that cavities in children are typically caused by two reasons- 1) is weak enamel, that is typically genetic and the very best brushing, all the fluoride in the world can't prevent cavities. 2) is colonization of the "bad bacteria" that cause cavities. The bad bacteria get shared typically by other adults sharing spoons, cups, forks, kissing on the lips, etc.

In both situations it's typical for the parent with bad teeth to have children with bad teeth, due to either genetics or sharing those bad bacteria. We did an extensive family history of our (me, DH, and our parents/sibs) dental history at our first appointment. My DD had a cavity that needed filling at 5, hers was due to a malformation of a back molor that left essentially, an incredibly deep groove that we couldn't brush out. Our dentist felt that it was a "one off" because of the situation, and wasn't worried. Neither DH nor I had cavities as children, ours all came as adults, which she also said is typical and due to a change in dental habits and food when you go to college (pop, sugary coffees, etc.) more so then that huge colonization of bacteria.

Anyway, night weaning really helped extend my nursing relationship with DD, she was a big all night nurser and night weaning let us continue during the day. We followed the Gordon plan and it worked wonders in just two days. Good luck!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Gordon's plan would have been too....elaborate for DS. The nurse-but-not-to-sleep thing would have driven him insane. (I think DD would do OK with it). We had great luck with a more drastic change. That was week one = nurse first waking and then not again until the next day (so, no 'sun comes up' or anything. Just TOMORROW). Then week 2 = no nursing at all in bed.

It sounds more harsh but really it was more gentle for DS who needs very specific directions/limits when making a change. Less now at his age now but certainly at that age.

So I guess I'd say keep an open mind. and good luck! It virtually eliminated DS' CONSTANT nightwaking.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

Ooo where did you find xylitol wipes? DD's bad teeth are the top front four, and I'mwondering if it's because these teeth never get BM on them due to the way kids nurse - her other teeth seem fine. She is also a fighter and will clench her jaw so we cant get in there - but I could wipe her teeth while she sleeps...

We also do a multivit and lots of water during the day.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Gordon's plan would have been too....elaborate for DS. The nurse-but-not-to-sleep thing would have driven him insane. (I think DD would do OK with it). We had great luck with a more drastic change. That was week one = nurse first waking and then not again until the next day (so, no 'sun comes up' or anything. Just TOMORROW). Then week 2 = no nursing at all in bed.

It sounds more harsh but really it was more gentle for DS who needs very specific directions/limits when making a change. Less now at his age now but certainly at that age.

So I guess I'd say keep an open mind. and good luck! It virtually eliminated DS' CONSTANT nightwaking.

thanks, I will keep this in mind!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalamos23* 
Ooo where did you find xylitol wipes? DD's bad teeth are the top front four, and I'mwondering if it's because these teeth never get BM on them due to the way kids nurse - her other teeth seem fine. She is also a fighter and will clench her jaw so we cant get in there - but I could wipe her teeth while she sleeps...

We also do a multivit and lots of water during the day.

DS's cavities are on the two side top teeth (not the two front, but the ones beside them). So, I also thought that if it were from BM it wouldn't be on those teeth!

Liam is a fighter too, but for the last 4-5 months we have made sure to hold him down (not very gentle, but was hoping to avoid cavities!) and brush his teeth every night. It takes two of us. But, my DH travels for work for a night or two every other week, and I do the best I can but I know I can't get in there real well. So that is why I ordered the wipes! I just googled Xylitol wipes and ended up ordering them from CVS online.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

Riley's bad ones are the ones on the side too - the big 2 top front are not anywhere as bad as those directly on the side... I wonder why? Thanks for the wipe info!


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## Punchy Kaby (Mar 13, 2006)

YOu all should check out the dental forum. Cavities have everuthing to do with nutrition (Westin Price put out studies) Specific diet changes can get your children the vitamins and minerals to heal the cavities naturally. Specifically Cod Liver Oil, High vitamin butter oil, grass fed dairy and meat.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Punchy Kaby* 
YOu all should check out the dental forum. Cavities have everuthing to do with nutrition (Westin Price put out studies) Specific diet changes can get your children the vitamins and minerals to heal the cavities naturally. Specifically Cod Liver Oil, High vitamin butter oil, grass fed dairy and meat.

I have checked out the dental forum and read about the Traditional diet. I know our diet is not perfect, but if it was purely diet related there are a LOT of other kids I know who's mouths should be completely rotten. Liam has a dairy allergy, so he wouldn't be able to eat a lot of the things you suggested.







He does eat a lot of good protiens/fats/fruits/veggies and I buy organic as much as we can afford. I take a Calcium and Vitamen D supplement as well as a Prenatal. The decay is getting worse and worse very quickly, especially his front chipped tooth. I don't think his decay is diet related.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i will say that night weaning and fixing the initial cavities halted all decay in both my children's front teeth.

i know it's not supposed to be related but it made a difference for us.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

You know, DD had a dairy/soy/egg allergy as well. I wonder if it is related?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalamos23* 
You know, DD had a dairy/soy/egg allergy as well. I wonder if it is related?

Maybe the relation is simply that our kiddos are sensitive to things? Or maybe there is some other connection as well.. hm.. something to think about!


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

If you didn't use a fluoride toothpaste until now then I would think that would be the cause for the decay. We would all have decay if we didn't use fluoride toothpaste.

Could you brush twice a day? Why only once?

My Mum's a dentist, has been the last 40 years, just retired and she said the use of fluoride has completely changed dentistry. She still sees cavitities but nowhere near the quantity she used to due to fluoride in the toothpaste.

Anyway, wishing you all the best with night-weaning. I have read many of your posts, not recent ones, as we night-weaned sometime ago and I stopped coming to the forum







But you have tried so very very hard. I'm certain Liam will be fine and you will start to feel so much better and begin to devote more time in the day to helping him develop as a wonderful little boy









Good luck with it all.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlicesMama* 
If you didn't use a fluoride toothpaste until now then I would think that would be the cause for the decay. We would all have decay if we didn't use fluoride toothpaste.

Could you brush twice a day? Why only once?

.


I would've used flouride sooner, but our ped told us not to even use toothpaste! Plus most flouride toothpastes say "age 2 and up"....

I wish I could brush his teeth many times a day, but sadly he fights it so bad it takes 2 people to brush them. I do wipe his teeth as best I can (and usually am bitten in the process!) throughout the day, and I just ordered some xylitol wipes for this. I also let him "brush" his teeth himself, though he only really chews on the toothbrush, and only gets the back molars.


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

Wow, I find that really shocking that a ped would say no tooth paste. Perhaps there is different guidance from the US dental regulator about babies' teeth, but here in the UK we are all issued with pamphlets about using a baby toothpaste (specially made for years 0 to 3 with a good level of flouride) and told to brush twice a day, even when there are no teeth!!! Yes, really!!!

http://www.healthmonthly.co.uk/aquaf...aste_0-3_years maybe they sell it in the USA?

I really hope you manage to get it treated soon (as it will become painful for him and that may even be why he's biting you when you try to brush). Wishing you all the best and don't blame yourself, you did all you could. It's true there is some degree of genetics involved, my Mum said a certain race more often than not had amazing teeth, especially the men, but I wouldn't like to say which one for fear of getting into trouble on the board. But there's no doubt constant sugar on the teeth will cause damage eventually, no matter what anyone else tells you, as it's a biological reaction. Good luck again and big hug.


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

Back to the nightweaning thing - sorry, this got long:

Ultimately, for us, it had to be a mommy-only experience, no daddy help. This makes sense since it was me imposing a limit, my babe really needed to have the snuggles and the consistency with me.

Perhaps the hardest thing about it for me has been getting well-rested enough to have the mental resources to stay with the program. Exhaustion and being on auto-pilot has waylaid many of my night-nursing plans! I love a recent post from a woman who thought her babe had STTN w/out nursing, only to discover one breast exposed in the am and the babe on that side - not where she'd fallen asleep. Still makes me giggle.

I did a Jay Gordon thing around 14 months, I think, and posted about it as it went along - really good overall, so I don't have any concerns for you there. Ultimately we got waylaid by an illness then teething, and I gave up.

My son just turned 2 and about a month ago, we had an episode where he was doing his usual night nursing thing, but with such an awful latch. By the time I woke up enough to deal, I absolutely had to tell him "No more milk tonight, we'll have lots more milk in the morning, and now we'll have lots of snuggles." I fully expected to have to really get up then to deal with a temper reaction, but to my unending shock, he rolled over, snuggled back at me and slept til am. WHAT??? How long had he been ready for that, while I was assuming he couldn't handle it and I'd have to do something more Jay Gordon like again?

I then tried the same line from 10p - 4a for about a week after. 80% of the time, same great results. 20% of the time, he'd cry and beg and I'd say "OK, just an itty-bitty milk, then snuggles and back to sleep." I'd sit up in the bed, let him nurse for the length of one lullaby to which I'd add words about milk in the morning and snuggles at night. Then I'd tap my breast near his mouth, say "Time for snuggles" and lo and behold, within 45 seconds, without any more help from me, he'd UNLATCH HIMSELF and we'd snuggle back down. Sometimes he'd need another dull lullaby hummed into his head to make him go back to sleep, but he really did sleep! And the stretches between wake ups went from 90 minutes to 2.5 or even 3 hours.

Now, a week into this, he developed intense separation anxiety. We had our first trip away from daddy, and grandma came to stay for 10 fun, but long days. I lost my edge and stopped following my self-made "program" for night weaning or decreasing night nursing. The separation anxiety has just disappeared this week, and for now I am mostly trying to wake up enough to keep him unlatching himself at night, but have no hard and fast rule. Most of the time, the sleep intervals are close to 3 hours long.

I have no idea if the anxiety arose from the night stuff or was just a normal developmental thing. I'm thinking more the latter, though at the time I was wracked with guilt about the night nursing stuff.

But check this out: TWICE, in this last month of big changes, he has slept without nursing from 7:30 - 4 am!!!! These were super restless nights, and he often needed a hand on his back, and I got kicked alot, but did I care about that the next morning? No way.

Once again - developmental changes or the influence of a new night environment? Well, if he ever sleeps that long again without nursing, I will definitively say - Who Cares!

I imagine you reading this, Lady C, and saying to yourself "Wow, lucky her, but that's not my kid." The reason I am writing at all is to let you know that it wasn't my kid either - til it was. So I'm sure that one way or another, you and your son will find your way. And I'm betting it might be easier than you anticipate.

I'm totally for you getting some sleep/ sanity. Such fun times are coming and you want to be awake enough to enjoy them! You are being a great stellar amazing mom by pushing yourself through your original intention to let Liam set the schedule, and adapting to the real needs of the day. I am 100% sure that taking care of yourself (and his teeth) will lead to great things for you both.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks for posting your experience LCBMAX!

I have actually been trying a little bit to nurse when he wakes up, but not until he is asleep and popping him off and he does get mad for about 10 seconds but he rolls over and goes back to sleep! He is actually sick right now so I'm not going to try anything more drastic, but just knowing that he CAN go to sleep like that is very encouraging to me!


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I would've used flouride sooner, but our ped told us not to even use toothpaste! Plus most flouride toothpastes say "age 2 and up"....

I wish I could brush his teeth many times a day, but sadly he fights it so bad it takes 2 people to brush them. I do wipe his teeth as best I can (and usually am bitten in the process!) throughout the day, and I just ordered some xylitol wipes for this. I also let him "brush" his teeth himself, though he only really chews on the toothbrush, and only gets the back molars.

After reading your post (ugh, so sorry about the dental issues on top of everything else), I went to look at Silly Strawberry toothpaste and it does say "age 2 and up" - can I use it with my 13 month old? I know you will have done your research. Sorry to hijack and I'm just wishing you so much luck with the nightweaning. Hugs.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Louisep* 
After reading your post (ugh, so sorry about the dental issues on top of everything else), I went to look at Silly Strawberry toothpaste and it does say "age 2 and up" - can I use it with my 13 month old? I know you will have done your research. Sorry to hijack and I'm just wishing you so much luck with the nightweaning. Hugs.

I think you will have to make that decision.. (sorry.. lol) I don't want to tell you one way or the other. Some people use flouride from the getgo, others avoid it for years. The more I am researching/hearing/reading the more I am convinced that Liam's decay is from his reflux. That is what makes the most sense to me. I would find something with Xylitol if I were you and there are no issues yet. I ordered some Xylitol wipes online from CVS, and i'm sure you can find toothpaste with Xylitol in it online somewhere too.


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## allisonrose (Oct 22, 2004)

Subbing because I'm curious to see how things work out. I've been contemplating nightweaning purely for the need for more sleep.


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I think you will have to make that decision.. (sorry.. lol) I don't want to tell you one way or the other. Some people use flouride from the getgo, others avoid it for years. The more I am researching/hearing/reading the more I am convinced that Liam's decay is from his reflux. That is what makes the most sense to me. I would find something with Xylitol if I were you and there are no issues yet. I ordered some Xylitol wipes online from CVS, and i'm sure you can find toothpaste with Xylitol in it online somewhere too.

Thanks for the reply


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I have checked out the dental forum and read about the Traditional diet. I know our diet is not perfect, but if it was purely diet related there are a LOT of other kids I know who's mouths should be completely rotten. Liam has a dairy allergy, so he wouldn't be able to eat a lot of the things you suggested.







He does eat a lot of good protiens/fats/fruits/veggies and I buy organic as much as we can afford. I take a Calcium and Vitamen D supplement as well as a Prenatal. The decay is getting worse and worse very quickly, especially his front chipped tooth. I don't think his decay is diet related.

this isnt necessarily a correct way to see it, it is possible that your child has a predisposition and that the diet might be making it worse. all of our bodies are different and what is ok for some.. is not for others.

i know MANY children with this issue and all of the dentists have said to nightwean.







it didnt help any of them, however ozone therapy did and a change in diet, like radical change.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
this isnt necessarily a correct way to see it, it is possible that your child has a predisposition and that the diet might be making it worse. all of our bodies are different and what is ok for some.. is not for others.

i know MANY children with this issue and all of the dentists have said to nightwean.







it didnt help any of them, however ozone therapy did and a change in diet, like radical change.

Obviously it is ok for other kids to have juice/candy/junk and not brush their teeth and still be fine. But for some reason my DS has none of those things, and we brush his teeth everyday and he still ended up with cavities. The more people I talk with, and the more I read, the more I am convinced it is from his reflux wearing away the enamel, as well as genetics.

We have his 18 mo WBV monday and I'm planning to talk with our ped about other options, as well as ask for a suggestion for a different dentist.

The teeth is only a secondary issue for our nightweaning reasons. The primary reasons are I am exhausted and can barely function and I am tired of being woken up every hour or more all night long. I can't do it anymore. I've done it for long enough, 18 months tomorrow, and my body can't take anymore. I'm tired of being so exhausted in the mornings that I can barely keep my child from danger, and too tired to do "fun" things with him. I'm tired of living in "survival mode" where I am doing the bare minimum to get by each day and not able to really enjoy my son. I'm not the mother to him that I should be or need to be. Things have to change.


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

I was wondering if you have read about containment dental procedures for young children? Supposed to be less invasive than root canals etc. I can dig up an article if you're interested.

Any updates on how the nightweaning is going?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Louisep* 
I was wondering if you have read about containment dental procedures for young children? Supposed to be less invasive than root canals etc. I can dig up an article if you're interested.

Any updates on how the nightweaning is going?

I have not read it, I would to see it if you can find it!









We haven't started nightweaning yet, Liam has been sick all week, and I am kind of waiting for the dental thing to pan out. I don't want to start yet until after the procedure, etc. I have been unlatching him before he is asleep though, sometimes that goes well and he goes right back to sleep, sometimes he gets mad, but overall I'd say he's doing well with that. I will def update when I have something to share!


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

It's just a news report so you'll have to dig more up on it but there's some kind of varnish that can be applied and then the teeth are monitored. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8112603.stm

I almost didn't give you this because of the scary story at the end - please don't let it worry you!

Are Liam's teeth very bad? I wonder if they're causing pain and are contributing to the waking? He had been doing better at night right?

We night weaned early and it was easy and I think in part because I had started to do what you are doing.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Louisep* 
It's just a news report so you'll have to dig more up on it but there's some kind of varnish that can be applied and then the teeth are monitored. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8112603.stm

I almost didn't give you this because of the scary story at the end - please don't let it worry you!

Are Liam's teeth very bad? I wonder if they're causing pain and are contributing to the waking? He had been doing better at night right?

We night weaned early and it was easy and I think in part because I had started to do what you are doing.


Thanks for sharing that! I will talk with his ped on Monday about other options, because I really do not want him put under GA so young if we can just try and treat the decay.

His teeth are not very bad, we just noticed the cavities a couple weeks ago, they are just tiny hole/dents that are slightly discolored.

You can see his chipped tooth here and the cavity here (top of the tooth to our left).


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
You can see his chipped tooth here and the cavity here (top of the tooth to our left).

Oh my goodness, Liam is such a sweet boy!! I couldn't really see the cavities. Let us know how your visit with the ped goes.


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## echoecho1528 (Jul 29, 2008)

Okay, he has to be one of the cutest little boys I have ever seen!


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

Holy cute!


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## sarahdavida (Mar 21, 2008)

aside from the tooth issue (and yes, you´re little boy is truly beautiful) we have been working on the nightweaning for just over a couple weeks now - I am taking it slow, being more firm when I feel I can be, but trying to be sensitive to his needs and giving him some slack when I feel like it´s needed...

I am shocked and delighted to say that he is consistently going to sleep at night, initially, not only without nursing, but on his own in his bed - and happily! I didn´t think we would get to that point so quicky...I did the Dr. Sears (and maybe others) recommended technique of saying goodnight and encouraging them to relax and try to sleep, but saying i would be back in a few minutes to check on him - and making those intervals longer little by little...

the first night I went in and out 5 times and then decided to lie down with him, at which point he fell asleep instantly..the second night I went in and out 4 times - he would still start playing in his bed a couple times, but I just went in calmly and asked him to lie down so he could try to sleep again - he eventually fell asleep on his own...

the third night we had our nanny do it and she said he actually smiled and waved goodbye to her to signal it was time for her to leave the room - she said she went out 3 times before he eventually fell asleep...

the 4th night - I went in and out twice (and noticed he had stopped his tendency to play around in between my checking in) before he fell asleep

and last night I went out once and by the time I checked back in he was already asleep - I have been amazed and thrilled!

in between the first nights there were a couple times he was so exhausted and/or cranky and or completely off his rythm that I allowed him to nurse, not wanting to force it all on him right away...but now he seems to not even expect it and seems to be quite happy with this new routine...

that being said, he is on a more "free" schedule where we really try to wait until we know he is ready for bed, instead of forcing a bedtime on him every night - he doesn´t always nap anymore, but when he does, it is often later in the day and when he wakes up at 4, we know he will not be ready for bed until between 9 - 10 pm, so we still just go with the flow for now

as I suspected, the nightwaking to nurse has been a lot harder to deal with, although he´s done o.k. - sometimes it just seems too stressful on him and I let him nurse, not wanting to ruin the other aspects that are going great right now - I take it night by night, but I suppose that as more time passes, I´ll be more firm about that, as well - we´ll see how it goes, step by step...but I would say, overall, so far so good...

for me, I am finding patience, sensitivity and flexibility to be the keys in keeping this process moving forward in a positive direction...

I also had to - and have been able to wait until the 34 month mark - at 28-30 months, he just wasn´t able to handle it and neither was I, energy wise...

everybody really has to do what´s best for them in their own way

and I´m trying to get him in to the dentist for the first time this week


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *echoecho1528* 
Okay, he has to be one of the cutest little boys I have ever seen!

Thank you! We think so too..


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## Alisse (Dec 10, 2009)

Cavities on the front teeth of children so young usually results from them being bathed in breastmilk/formula. It's referred to as nursing bottle caries and doesn't often occur on the bottom teeth because of the way babies nurse; their tongues are usually covering them. Normally it is not easy to develop cavities on the front teeth. When any baby teeth develops a cavity, they get big fast because the enamel of baby teeth is thin and weak.

Calcium supplementation will do nothing to prevent/cure cavities. Xylitol wipes are a nice idea but not necessary -- all you have to do is brush/wipe the plaque off; you don't even have to use a fluoridated toothpaste, (or any toothpaste actually). Acid reflux doesn't cause cavities but can result in a more generalized wearing of the enamel.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alisse* 
Acid reflux doesn't cause cavities but can result in a more generalized wearing of the enamel.

I never thought reflux CAUSED the cavities, but yes, that they wore down the enamel on his teeth. And we obviously need to do more than just brush his teeth, because that is what we've been doing and he has cavities. Thanks though.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
Maybe the relation is simply that our kiddos are sensitive to things? Or maybe there is some other connection as well.. hm.. something to think about!

Some indications are that sensitivities are related to poor gut flora, which could mean that the body doesn't have enough good bacteria to fight the bad bacteria.

But then, not all kids with food reactions have bad teeth, so here's square one again.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Well, I don't really have an update on the nightweaning yet, because we haven't started..







Part of me is really nervous, part of me is still hoping it resolves on its own. But, I am commited to starting after the dental procedure, which is scheduled for March 19th. We are also planning to transition him to his own bed and DH taking over nighttime with him....

..because....

I'M PREGNANT!!









Only 5.5 weeks, but we are so excited.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Congratulations!

I hadn't been in this thread before now. I was noticed that your son and my DD5 share teeth issues! Well, teeth issues that she had as a toddler, anyway. LOL I suppose she'll always have "teeth issues", though...she's got the bad teeth of the family, bless her. Anyway, she chipped her front tooth when she was a toddler. She also had several cavities. We got her cavities filled and her tooth filed down when she was 2.

She did nurse at night, but not a great deal. She was a pretty decent sleeper. My DS13 is the one that I had to night wean due non-stop night nursing. He had(and still has) great teeth. I used the Jay Gordon method with him, when he was about 2. I really didn't think it was going to work, but I was so desperate for sleep. It did work. Quite well, actually!

I will also say that having the dental work done at age 2 did not scare my DD off the dentist AT ALL. She loves the dentist. Seriously, she's actually said "I LOVE the dentist!" on more than one occasion. LOL And she has gotten upset when my sons had an appt, but she didn't. She's so funny.

I'm nervous to see how my youngest's teeth do. I had handled DD's teeth the exact same way that I did my son's teeth. But they had no problems, while she had a mouthful of problems! You just never can tell.

Congratulations again!


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

What wonderful news!! Congratulations.

Let us know how the teeth, the weaning, and the bed transition go. DS has been going through an okay patch and I'm wondering if he won't do better in his own space.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

CONGRATS!!!! I'm so excited for you!!


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## chocolatefish (Sep 21, 2008)

Congratulations! I think it turned out that we started nightweaning DS (26 months) around the same time as I got pregnant - must have been something subliminal going on there!

We are now down to a short nursing before bed at 8pm, no nursing until 4am and then up around 6. The 4 to 6 session(s) is a killer as my boobs are hurting a lot. That's going to be the next target, maybe around Easter when I get over ther 1st trimester tiredness...!


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## sarahdavida (Mar 21, 2008)

update from me:

We had backtracked on the nightweaning (due to illness, etc.), but have just gotten back to going to sleep initially without nursing...the next step - again - is not waking up to nurse throughout the night, but DS´s first dentist appt. yesterday clinched it for me.

He has 10 - TEN - cavities or decalcifications that need work and the dentist had to refer us to another colleague because it will have to be an O.R. procedure and he doesn´t do those! I am so completely disappointed about this - I´m not sure if he will even be able to have it all done at once - we´ll see.

He has his appointment tomorrow and we will see what the Dr. says. The ONLY consollation in all this is that, although it´s going to really stink for now, at least they are baby teeth that will eventually fall out, but needless to say, we are DONE with the night nursing.

Luckily, I was pretty much on my way with it already, but this recent news just makes me a LOT more firm in my willingness/readiness to get back to it and do it. It is so unfortunate that something that has been so beneficial in so many ways, has been so detrimental in another way - but I should have known. I had pretty weak teeth growing up, so genetics hasn´t helped here...i just couldn´t believe it was SO much.

I just feel so badly that he has to go through it, but I keep trying to tell myself that it will pass and hopefully it won´t happen like this again - that we will take care of it and he is still generally a very healthy boy (I´m trying to focus on the positive here).

That being said, he is taking to going to sleep on his own well - he never went for stuffed animals or a blanket, but he likes to take his trucks to bed with him now - his trucks are his transitional objects  I tell him his trucks are tired, too, after a long day and he can help them go to sleep, too. It´s very cute. We kiss each other goodnight and I go out, checking periodically, and he falls asleep peacefully...so i am thankful for that. We´ll see how the next bit goes, once again - it will be more difficult, but I know we will get there.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So, I finally began the nightweaning process! And it is going MUCH better than I expected. I'm sort of doing a modified Jay Gordon.... I haven't gotten to the "no nursing at night period" point, but I only let him nurse for about 30-60 seconds and then tell him we are all finished. The first couple times he cried and I rubbed his back and he went to sleep. Now, about 50% of the time he just rolls over and goes back to sleep with no fuss! And, he has been consistently sleeping 5 HOUR STRETCHES!! almost every night!







Last night he even had a SEVEN hour stretch!!!!!! My milk is pretty much dried up from my pregnancy (not that DS seems to mind at all..) and it is very uncomfortable to nurse, so that has given me a lot of motivation. That and I am having a really hard time going back to sleep when he wakes me up. Starting in the next couple weeks we are moving him to his own bed and having DH take over nighttime.

Just wanted to share some progress!!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

WAY TO GO LIAM!!!!!!!


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Catie, I am so happy for you! And Liam! And baby #2 who needs a healthy, well rested mama in order to grow.


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

This is such good news!!









Keep it up Liam!!


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