# I have hit a wall....



## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

What do you do when GD is failing? Or if you are failing at GD?

I posted on here a couple of weeks ago when I lost it with my DS for pooping in his pants for like, the kajillionth time. I know it was an inappropriate response and I haven't done it again, but I have imposed a minor consequence (I spray him with the hand held bidet - which is cold - because I don't like touching the poop with my hands). He is still hiding and pooping in his pants.

I am tired of cleaning up poop. DH is really tired of cleaning up poop. DS's school is insisting that he at least be somewhat proficient in pooping on the potty before he starts going. So we are on a schedule and under the gun. But even without the school pressure, I am tired of being responsible for someone else's bodily functions. He has been pee trained for over a year and I don't think this is asking too much of him. I just don't. I know he can do it. He just won't.

We've tried rewards, different potty seats (they are all too small and are uncomfortable for him), promises of treats, goal setting, being supportive and just talking about it, etc., etc., etc. Nothing works. NOTHING.

I just don't know what to do. I have become very negative about this issue. I am not being the parent I want to be. But it bothers me and I really, really, really want to be D-O-N-E with potty training.








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## bdavis337 (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't know, but I do remember your earlier post and your frustration. I'd really urge you at this point to consider talking to your son's pediatrician - it sounds like you are past the point of "normal" potty avoidance and might want to rule out any medically-oriented possibilities.

Potty training is very frustrating and tiring - I remember when I first realized my son was ready to start learning to use the potty! I told my husband "this is the first REAL parent-ish thing we've had to do, everything else was easy and fun and now THIS is for real, and I have no idea how to go about it".


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bdavis337* 
I don't know, but I do remember your earlier post and your frustration. I'd really urge you at this point to consider talking to your son's pediatrician - it sounds like you are past the point of "normal" potty avoidance and might want to rule out any medically-oriented possibilities.

Potty training is very frustrating and tiring - I remember when I first realized my son was ready to start learning to use the potty! I told my husband "this is the first REAL parent-ish thing we've had to do, everything else was easy and fun and now THIS is for real, and I have no idea how to go about it".

He goes in for a check up on the 19th. I will mention it then. But I've said it before and I'll say it again... I don't think this is a constipation issue. He gets plenty of fiber (lots of fresh fruits and veggies) and he poops easily and regularly.

I feel like I am failing utterly. I don't know what to do. I feel like a bad parent. But I have asked for advice from practically everyone I know and either they've never experienced this problem, or they turned to way abusive measures to control it. I'm trying to find a middle ground.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is an article titled "*Patience: the key to successful toilet training - Perspectives on Parenting"*

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...ov/ai_16843864

HTH, Pat


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## LuckyMommaToo (Aug 14, 2003)

Could you, one morning, tell your DS -- You need to put on a pull-up when you're going to poop. Then you could tell him (matter-of-factly) that everyone poops in the bathroom, and that's where he needs to do his business. This was the first step toward getting DS poop-trained.

This may be no help, but thought I'd at least throw it out there. I would be equally frustrated, momma. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes when I find things turning into a huge power struggle I have to go into third-person mode, and kind of remove myself (mentally) from the situation and try to be very matter-of-fact/not emotional.

-Erin


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Here is an article titled "*Patience: the key to successful toilet training - Perspectives on Parenting"*

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...ov/ai_16843864

HTH, Pat

Thanks.

I have considered backing off. The problem is DH... who takes care of DS on Sundays and categorically refuses to let this go. He (DH) is already mad at me because DS isn't trained yet (ridiculous, I know, but there it is) and he would lose it if I were to put DS back in diapers. There are a lot of factors at work here.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuckyMommaToo* 
Could you, one morning, tell your DS -- You need to put on a pull-up when you're going to poop. Then you could tell him (matter-of-factly) that everyone poops in the bathroom, and that's where he needs to do his business. This was the first step toward getting DS poop-trained.

This may be no help, but thought I'd at least throw it out there. I would be equally frustrated, momma. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes when I find things turning into a huge power struggle I have to go into third-person mode, and kind of remove myself (mentally) from the situation and try to be very matter-of-fact/not emotional.

-Erin

Yeah, we've already tried it. I have asked him to poop only in the bathroom, in a pull up, and he won't do it. I have asked him to ask me for a pull up if he needs to poop. Won't do it. I have asked him to refrain from pooping in public spaces. Won't do it. And all of this was way before we got to this level. As I said, he has been pee trained for a year, and it is just now getting to where we are putting pressure on him.

I think part of the problem is that he won't meet us in the middle. He wants to poop, in his pants, wherever he is, when he feels the urge. In fact, the only thing that STOPS him from pooping is if I catch him and put him on the potty. Then he holds it. And I don't care what anyone says... by the age of 4, with no communication issues (and he doesn't have any) he should be able to understand something as simple as "we poop in the bathroom." Even if it's with a pull-up.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I will just say that I was forced by my mother to toilet before I was emotionally ready. I remember it strongly and still feel very triggered by the construct of another person directing my bodily functions. I want to share that I felt deep resentment over the control and power struggle for autonomy during that psychological and physical developmental time.

Respectfully,
Pat


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

What is your ds's responsibility in all this? Do you take care of the whole mess?


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
What is your ds's responsibility in all this? Do you take care of the whole mess?

Yes. I help him clean up. I can't fathom how he would do it without making a huge mess that I would then have to clean up. Any ideas on that?


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## TanyaMT (Dec 17, 2003)

You mention school - is he eager to go to this school such that you could explain he has to be potty trained before he can go? My older son was a little late training, probably 3 to 3-1/2. We had tried stickers and so forth but what really finally did it was some things he could not do if not potty trained, like a special summer 1/2 day camp he wanted to go to. When he was properly motivated by something he really wanted for himself, he trained within a week easily.

I know you said you tried rewards so this may not work for you. Just throwing out what finally worked for us.


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## BeanyMama (Jul 25, 2006)

Maybe the ped will have good advice. could be that he has a hard time recognizing the poop signal?


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
Yes. I help him clean up. I can't fathom how he would do it without making a huge mess that I would then have to clean up. Any ideas on that?

I would give more directions, less actual work on my part. "Ok, now you need to..." It will be more messy, but since the bulk of the burden falls on him (you clean, of course, after he's done) it's more of an incentive to not do it. If it isn't, well, he slowly gets better at cleaning himself and his mess up, and you both still benefit.


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## LuckyMommaToo (Aug 14, 2003)

Okay, well, if it were me, I'd put him back in pull-ups full time. Not as punishment, but just b/c I'm not willing to change poopy underwear/pants on a regular basis. I'd also start saying every day (again, very matter-of-factly), "one day soon you're going to be pooping on the potty."

Finally, how do you feel about tv? I truly believe that's what finally did it for DS. I had bought this Potty Power DVD, and told him that anytime he went in the potty he could watch it. I limit tv, so it was a big treat for him. And we really would drop everything so he could watch it. Is there some movie/ show that your son would really, really want to see? B/c it seems like he's backed into a corner over this issue, and he needs some way out that is his decision, kwim? A really big incentive that you offer freely for whenever he's ready to give it a try.

Again, maybe no help. I feel for you.
-e


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I am talking out of my rear end myself here but what about peer pressure? Is he around other kids his age?


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i'm sorry you're dealing with this mama. i think talking to the pediatrician is a good idea. other than that, my advice is useless. my son potty trained naked though....it probably sounds weird to some, but he would have accidents when he was dressed....but if he was naked...he'd use the potty. i know you can't take him to school naked







but maybe when he's home you could let him run free??? it might work??


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I am talking out of my rear end myself here but what about peer pressure? Is he around other kids his age?

All of the kids we used to hang out with on a regular basis are in school! We are really lacking for social engagement these days. That is one of the reasons I want him in school, so he can get to make friends that he will see on a daily basis. I also think that once he is in school this issue will disappear... when he hears about other kids using the toilet I think that will be a big motivator for him.

My mom thinks I should just send him to school and expect to be called if he needs to be picked up because he had an accident. I will be working nights and will be home sleeping while he's in school.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I would simply offer him diapers.

Maybe buy a bunch of cheap underwear that you can throw away if he has an accident??

What does he say about it?

It really sounds like he's not ready. If he were ready, he'd do it.

My son started using the toilet for poop around 4.

I don't agree that your DH's and your discomfort should trump your child's developmental abilities.

And I think squirting him with cold water sounds simply awful. Couldn't you just use wipes? Or put him a shallow tub of warm soapy water? I've been changing poopy diapers for the last 5+ years and rarely do I have to touch the poop.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

you said dh has him on Sundays, I am assuming you have him the rest of the time? Could you, just for a week, maybe even taking it off work if you have too.... and spend every second with him. If he starts to squaut, take him to the toilet. Maybe keep him naked so he cant hide it from you. If he holds it when he gets on, fine. Let him sit there for 10 minutes and then get up... while he sists read books, watch tv, anything but talk about poop. Have snacks, or a sticker book, or m and m's, skittles...... whatever he loves. So, when he gets up and he hasnt gone, stay again by his side. Explain to him that you cant go to the park, or shopping or whatever because you are waiting for him to poop in the toilet before you go anywhere. Eventually, sometime during the week, he will HAVE to poop. Load up on the extra fiber, maybe get some prunes, or benefiber to add to his drinks to make it harder for him to hold it in. And then of course, the first time he does it.. have a party!


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I don't agree that your DH's and your discomfort should trump your child's developmental abilities.

And I think squirting him with cold water sounds simply awful. Couldn't you just use wipes? Or put him a shallow tub of warm soapy water? I've been changing poopy diapers for the last 5+ years and rarely do I have to touch the poop.

I have to disagree. I think this sounds more like a control issue. I read her other post too... and it seems to me that he is being "defiaint" about this. I am all about letting kids have control, but there comes a point when lines have to be drawn.

And I also think using a bidet to clean him is a perfeectly reasonable consequence to pooping in your pants when you are 4 yrs old and can understand why its happening.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
I am all about letting kids have control, but there comes a point when lines have to be drawn.

Over *toileting*??







:

So if it's "defiance" and a need for control, how does squirting him with cold water meet that underlying need?


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
I have to disagree. I think this sounds more like a control issue. I read her other post too... and it seems to me that he is being "defiaint" about this. I am all about letting kids have control, but there comes a point when lines have to be drawn.

And I also think using a bidet to clean him is a perfeectly reasonable consequence to pooping in your pants when you are 4 yrs old and can understand why its happening.

I use the bidet on myself, and it is not harmful... it's not even that cold. And I use a gentle spray setting. But I am tired, tired, tired of washing off poop with my hands (in the bathtub). He won't lie down to be wiped, I have to force him and then it's just silly and that's why we've been doing the bathtub. But it's getting awkward because he's so tall... he's just not easy to clean when poop spreads all over his bottom.

If he weren't sneaky about it, I would agree that it is a developmental issue. But he is... he knows he is going to poop, and he deliberately hides so that he doesn't have to use the potty. At some point he has to start taking responsibility for this.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

If he's willing to take being squirted with cold water and knowing he is making his parents angry and frustrated, and that his parents are stressed out about it, and he's not doing it for positive reinforcers, then either being able to control where he poops is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY important to him, or he has a medical condition and is unable to control it.

It sounds like you've exhausted all the possibilities for motivating him to poop in the potty. Its time to honor his extreme need, even though you don't understand WHY he needs this, and put him back in pull-ups. You'll have to take flack from your DH I guess but it sure sounds like your son needs this control. For whatever reason. And maybe school will have to be delayed... but your son is telling you it really, really needs to be his decision where he poops right now.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
If he weren't sneaky about it, I would agree that it is a developmental issue. But he is... he knows he is going to poop, and he deliberately hides so that he doesn't have to use the potty. At some point he has to start taking responsibility for this.

I know how you feel, and my child does have a medical problem. It just got to the point where I had to say "Look, you need to clean yourself up. I will help you and show you how, but you need to do this". I was getting frazzled and upset simply because I was dealing with poop every day, 4-5 times a day. He's 5.5 now and is perfectly capable of taking care of an accident, letting me know if he had one. Cool. He knows how to turn on the shower, get clean, dress, and put his undies in the (hopefully) empty washer after shaking them out in the toilet.

You just have to step back and say "I know you can handle this". It won't be perfect, but ownership of a problem goes a long way in solving it.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
If he's willing to take being squirted with cold water and knowing he is making his parents angry and frustrated, and that his parents are stressed out about it, and he's not doing it for positive reinforcers, then either being able to control where he poops is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY important to him, or he has a medical condition and is unable to control it.

It sounds like you've exhausted all the possibilities for motivating him to poop in the potty. Its time to honor his extreme need, even though you don't understand WHY he needs this, and put him back in pull-ups. You'll have to take flack from your DH I guess but it sure sounds like your son needs this control. For whatever reason. And maybe school will have to be delayed... but your son is telling you it really, really needs to be his decision where he poops right now.

Yeah, I have to agree. Maybe he's scared to death of going to school and this is the only way he can think of to say. Or, maybe it is a medical issue. It sounds like it's gotten to be too big of a deal, though. A total power struggle, and you and dh are losing. So let him win, and put him back in dipes. Who knows, maybe he'll decide after a week in diapers that it's not worth it?

Sorry for the crappy situation.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
If he's willing to take being squirted with cold water and knowing he is making his parents angry and frustrated, and that his parents are stressed out about it, and he's not doing it for positive reinforcers, then either being able to control where he poops is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY important to him, or he has a medical condition and is unable to control it.

It sounds like you've exhausted all the possibilities for motivating him to poop in the potty. Its time to honor his extreme need, even though you don't understand WHY he needs this, and put him back in pull-ups. You'll have to take flack from your DH I guess but it sure sounds like your son needs this control. For whatever reason. And maybe school will have to be delayed... but your son is telling you it really, really needs to be his decision where he poops right now.

You know, I've been thinking about this (and other, similar responses for a while). And I think that I have found my issue with this. We (DH and I) have been nothing short of the epitome of AP parents for the last 4 years. We have held DS when he cried from the moment he was born (and he cried a lot... non-stop until he was 10 months old), he was breastfed on demand from the moment he was born, DH and I switched shifts for 18 months so that he would be with a parent 24/7 when he was a baby, then we arranged for a family member to babysit after that when DH got a new job. He didn't sleep for over 3 years... he would wake up screaming in the middle of the night and we would hold him and rock him and take care of him, whatever he needed, regardless of our needs. His every need has been provided for, his entire life.

And now the balance of power is shifting because DS is older and is able to care for himself more, and DH and I are worn out. If he were a baby, or even 3 years old, I would say, yes, let's back off and give him more time. But now when push comes to shove, when DH and I are tired and frazzled to the point where I was screaming in DS's face 2 weeks ago... well he is simply going to have to step up to the plate. I simply don't agree that his needs get to trump ours in this case.

I have said a couple of times that I am perfectly willing for him to poop in a pull-up as long as he does it at home in the bathroom, and he even refuses to do that. When every school in the area has told us they simply won't accept a 4-year-old that is not poop trained... well that tells me that what he is doing is outside the norm.

I use the hand held bidet on myself. It does not hurt and is not that cold. He prefers to be washed in the bathtub with warm water, but in order to get him completely clean, I have to wash the poop off with my hands, and I am no longer willing to do that. I don't think that using the bidet is out of bounds in this case. I am most certainly NOT hurting him physically, I am cleaning him off to the best of my ability while staying within my comfort level on this issue.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Yeah, I have to agree. Maybe he's scared to death of going to school and this is the only way he can think of to say. Or, maybe it is a medical issue. It sounds like it's gotten to be too big of a deal, though. A total power struggle, and you and dh are losing. So let him win, and put him back in dipes. Who knows, maybe he'll decide after a week in diapers that it's not worth it?

Sorry for the crappy situation.









He wants to go to school.

Even if I put him back in diapers he will still be getting washed with the bidet. He won't allow himself to be wiped with wipes, and I'm tired of washing poop with my hands in the bathtub.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I hear that you are really, really frustrated. You've given him everything you had during his younger years and now you need a break. It just seems that you have tried everything (except harsh punishment, and of course you don't want to go there). At some point you have to choose between continuing to pull your hair out, and accepting that this is just where he is, right now.

I think I read that you were cleaning up poop 4-5 times a day, is that right? That seems awfully frequent to me. It sounds like something physical might be going on with him. Maybe he really isn't as capable as he appears in this area. Maybe he's scared that some of the times he can't control it, and rather than admit to some lack of control, he prefers to pretend that he CAN, but WON'T, use the bathroom.

Anyway, maybe googling functional encopresis (the technical term for what your child might be experiencing if its not medical) will give you some ideas. Here's one link I found:
http://www.pottytrainingconcepts.com...Encropesis.htm

Edit to add - oops, it was another poster that was 4-5 times a day - nm


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
I hear that you are really, really frustrated. You've given him everything you had during his younger years and now you need a break. It just seems that you have tried everything (except harsh punishment, and of course you don't want to go there). At some point you have to choose between continuing to pull your hair out, and accepting that this is just where he is, right now.

I think I read that you were cleaning up poop 4-5 times a day, is that right? That seems awfully frequent to me. It sounds like something physical might be going on with him. Maybe he really isn't as capable as he appears in this area. Maybe he's scared that some of the times he can't control it, and rather than admit to some lack of control, he prefers to pretend that he CAN, but WON'T, use the bathroom.

Anyway, maybe googling functional encopresis (the technical term for what your child might be experiencing if its not medical) will give you some ideas. Here's one link I found:
http://www.pottytrainingconcepts.com...Encropesis.htm

Nope, that was somebody else... he has 1-2 normal poops in an average day. Sometimes he doesn't go at all one day, but then has a normal poop the next.

As I said we are taking him to the doc on the 19th, but I will be really, really surprised if they find anything wrong in this area.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
And now the balance of power is shifting because DS is older and is able to care for himself more, and DH and I are worn out. If he were a baby, or even 3 years old, I would say, yes, let's back off and give him more time. But now when push comes to shove, when DH and I are tired and frazzled to the point where I was screaming in DS's face 2 weeks ago... well he is simply going to have to step up to the plate.

Yeah...but he's not. He's either not able to step up to the plate, or he is flat refusing. So maybe you could find some middle ground. Personally, I'd draw my line in the sand a little farther back and tell him he has to wear diapers until he's willing to go in the toilet, and that he has to let you change him with wipes, lying down.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Yeah...but he's not. He's either not able to step up to the plate, or he is flat refusing. So maybe you could find some middle ground. Personally, I'd draw my line in the sand a little farther back and tell him he has to wear diapers until he's willing to go in the toilet, and that he has to let you change him with wipes, lying down.

He is a big boy and very strong. He categorically refuses to be wiped lying down. If I were to ask him to do that I would be forcing him as much on that as I am on the potty issue.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Did you search "functional encopresis?" I looked at some more links and saw some behavior plans; maybe you could find one that you thought might work for your family.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

You said that you think peer pressure will be an effective motivator. It's still summer, there should be a plethora of day camps/childcare drop-in centers/swimming camps, etc etc around. Could you find something, maybe a 2-week day program with a focus in something he enjoys, that will take a kid in pullups if you give them a little extra $$?







Then put him in pullups and send him off and hope the other 4 year olds in the program will do the work for you!

If not, I agree with the other poster who suggested having him take ownership by having him clean himself up. Ain't no more natural consequence than that. Gently explain your position to him, and that the next time he poops he will have to go into the bathroom and do A. B. C. to clean himself, and that he can't be anywhere else in the house until he does. Show him how to do it before it happens. Talk him through it the first time maybe. Then let him deal with it and see how it goes.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I don't think being sprayed with cold water after pooping sounding like a "minor consequence." It sounds like a flat out punishment. And a pretty rough one at that. What does your husband do when he poops?

It sounds to me like *everyone* is being defiant in a flat out power struggle over who controls the child's anus. And, ultimately, he does.

It sounds like poop is very disgusting to you if you feel you need to spray him down after he poops. Perhaps he has picked up on that disgust and finds using the bathroom distasteful?


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## Jennah_Gole (Dec 12, 2001)

You know after reading your posts and alot of replies I remembered my husband's sister's son who was maybe 12 years old at the time. He had something medically wrong with him...and i can't remember what they called it but he was pooping in his pants...yes, at 12 years old he was still pooping in his pants...he would urinate in the bathroom but for poop he would always do it in his underwear.

I wish i remember what he had but it all started from potty training age and it never went away...I will try to google and search and see maybe if i can find something that can help you or better yet i will try to call her eventhough she lives in a different country.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I lost what I wrote.

Short form: Does he tell you why he is doing this? Does he have any ideas about what might help? (Sounds obvious... and I read quickly... but I don't remember reading about looking to him for answers)

Play acting with toys. If your son would enjoy this... (my son is all about teaching toys and we use this sort of approach to help my son warm up to certain activities that he finds intimidating). Find a toy doll (or whatever) with pants and tell your son that the toy doesn't want to poop or pee in the toilet. Try to prevent the doll from doing this, but the doll goes and hides and poops and pees, making a big mess (with some non-staining brown paints??? whatever you can come up with!!!). Drama is always fun and good (well... in my case as my son and I both love it). Maybe the doll could have a poop squirt that gets all over a pillow, or something like that... You can try to convince the doll to use the toilet, asking your son for ideas and seeing if he will jump in and try to help the doll learn how to use the toilet and explain to the doll why this is a good idea. Your son could work with you to try to understand why the toy doesn't want to use the toilet (or just watch what goes on) and you and your son could talk about different approaches that might work to help the doll... and talk about how it is a lot of work to clean up after the doll and about how maybe (hopefully!) the doll will soon be ready to use the toilet...

My son had some pooping issues (hates strange toilets and ended up holding it way too long, leading to a scary, painful poop, which led to more withholding... very stressful for everyone!!!). He loves playing with his dolls and teaching them things, and being able to do things that they can't do, so the playing helped him to feel more confident about using the toilet himself so that he can show the dolls how to do it (and makes it part of the game, rather than part of a power struggle... which itself was a big help). At one point a doll was saying "I don't think he can do it. No... he can't do it." I was correcting the doll, saying things like "I think he is trying really hard. I think he CAN do it. He has done it before!" I play all of this by ear... so it's not meant to be a recipe, of course.... Simon totally loves it and gets right into it. He then feels good once he has finally shown the people how to do X, or at least gotten closer to doing X than the little people are able to do, with a lot of talk about how he/they were practicing and improving and that it seems that soon he/they will be doing X. I think it's really hard for an only child who rarely sees other children who can't do a lot of things that they can't do... and who is perhaps rarely if ever able to do things that those around him cannot do and struggle with... It would be easy to feel incompetent in that case, even though the adults around are able to do more just because they've had more practice.

Maybe if you try not to do anything to force the issue for a few days, and just accept that he'll be pooping in his pants for a few days... and do a lot of play acting about it with little people (or whatever sort of play might best appeal to your son)... maybe then it would be resolved sooner than you expect... or at least maybe you would see some improvement by the end of a couple of days...

Hopefully it isn't a medical issue. I have heard of a lot of children who are scared to poop in toilets/potty seats. Maybe there is a concern that part of them might come out with the feces, falling into the toilet along with it, or something like that. Oh... at one point my son preferred to poop on the floor in the bathroom, on a towel. Not ideal... but it was a step in the right direction at the time.

Another idea... you could find and tell him stories about other children who have had this issue and have gotten over it.

I hope something in there is helpful.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
And now the balance of power is shifting because DS is older and is able to care for himself more, and DH and I are worn out. If he were a baby, or even 3 years old, I would say, yes, let's back off and give him more time. But now when push comes to shove, when DH and I are tired and frazzled to the point where I was screaming in DS's face 2 weeks ago... well he is simply going to have to step up to the plate.

But it isn't your 4 yr. old's job to refill your reserves, if you will. Can you find another way to get out of tired and frazzled that doesn't involve your son doing something he is either unable or unwilling (for whatever reason) to do?

Would it help to think about in terms of another developmental milestone? Like walking? Would it help you to meet your non-walking 2 yr. old's needs to say, "We've carried him this long and now we're tired and it's his turn to step up?" Wouldn't you find a way to get him around AND meet your own needs.

I bet you could visit the special needs forum and find a lot of gratitude for your situation. I do that sometimes when I'm frustrated with my kids' seemingly endless needs. The reality is is that I don't have bedridden kid who needs to be fed from a tube. Perspective is everything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
When every school in the area has told us they simply won't accept a 4-year-old that is not poop trained... well that tells me that what he is doing is outside the norm.

It probably is outside the norm. But so is almost everything we do here!







If he were bfing that would still be HUGELY outside the norm. But it doesn't negate the fact that that's where YOUR child IS right now.

What if he does have a medical issue and will be incontinent for the rest of his life? Would you be able to accept that you have to clean him up at that point?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I use the hand held bidet on myself. It does not hurt and is not that cold. He prefers to be washed in the bathtub with warm water, but in order to get him completely clean, I have to wash the poop off with my hands, and I am no longer willing to do that. I don't think that using the bidet is out of bounds in this case. I am most certainly NOT hurting him physically, I am cleaning him off to the best of my ability while staying within my comfort level on this issue.

But just because something doesn't HURT doesn't mean it's not uncomfortable. If he likes it so much why did you call it a consequence? I think you're trying to make it unpleasant for him so he'll stop. And I can certainly understand getting to a point where you are THAT frustrated, but I don't think it's a good plan in this case.

I don't understand why you have to touch the poop. ?? For stuff like that I use $2 dishwashing gloves and some old face cloths (or even paper towels which would go right into a plastic bag and in the trash). Maybe that would help?

But finally, I'm really curious what he has to say about this. Have you talked about it with him in a calm moment and expressed your concerns and discomfort?

I'm really sorry you all are going through this! I can imagine how difficult it must be all the way around! You're probably dreading FEEDING the child b/c you know it's gotta come OUT at some point, huh? Bless your heart! Hang in there!


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## Henry's Mom (Dec 27, 2002)

As the mother of 2 late pot poopers I hear your pain!
No particular advice, but lots of support. If it helps here's our story.
My ds1 was almost 4 1/2 before using the pot to poop, had been pot peeing since 2 and my now 4 1/4 yo is still dipe pooping he also pot peed regularly by 2. It was hard for me to not feel like a mommy messup.
My older guy really taught me that when they are ready they'll do it, neither of my guys have ever had an "accident" once they started using the pot.
With my younger guy we are just hanging in waiting for him to decide, it helps that neither I nor my dp are bothered by changing the dipe. My guy alomost only poops at home (unless we are away for more than a day!), goes and gets the dipe, poops and then gets the wipes and a pad to lie on and brings himself and the supplies to us!
We also have a preschool deadline looming, am trying to stay relaxed and positive thinking! Lately he has been sitting on the pot to "try it out", he pees standing only and I think has a bit of pot fear! He also loves the Everyone Poops book and has been asking to look at it while he poops, making a connection I hope.
Hang in there!


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
You said that you think peer pressure will be an effective motivator. It's still summer, there should be a plethora of day camps/childcare drop-in centers/swimming camps, etc etc around. Could you find something, maybe a 2-week day program with a focus in something he enjoys, that will take a kid in pullups if you give them a little extra $$?







Then put him in pullups and send him off and hope the other 4 year olds in the program will do the work for you!

If not, I agree with the other poster who suggested having him take ownership by having him clean himself up. Ain't no more natural consequence than that. Gently explain your position to him, and that the next time he poops he will have to go into the bathroom and do A. B. C. to clean himself, and that he can't be anywhere else in the house until he does. Show him how to do it before it happens. Talk him through it the first time maybe. Then let him deal with it and see how it goes.

Unfortunately all the programs I have spoken with (and we've talked to several) said that they simply can't accept a child that refuses to use the potty and they won't accept kids in pull-ups period.

Our babysitter is leaving in October. We don't really have another option regarding childcare. She is a family member and has already stayed with us way longer than she wanted to because we really didn't have any other options. We can't afford a "real" nanny.

I think we will probably just stick with what we've been doing, but I may have him start cleaning himself up as several posters have suggested. Having him take ownership of that part may solve a lot of this for us.

I feel so stupid... I had no idea that day cares could refuse non potty trained children. I should have investigated this last year and put him in when he was 3, when it wouldn't have been a problem. Now we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Since he is so dedicated to pooping in his pants, I will probably have him stay naked at home and spend most of our time at home. No more outings to the park where he can hide easily. It's a rather extreme measure, but we don't have a lot of choices at this point.

This morning he sat on the potty willingly while I blew bubbles for him to pop. We'll probably sit on the potty every hour or so.


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## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

I understand your frustration. When my now 15 (almost 16) year old son was almost 4 he wouldn't potty (pee or poop) at all. He was still in diapers and I was so frustrated. When we went in to see our kind old Ped I thought he was going to be upset he was still in dipes. He told me to just "let it go", and he was right. It had become such a power struggle (one we would never be able to win, after all he had final control over those functions). So we "let it go".
I didn't mention the potty anymore. I didn't get upset at cleaning the mess.
About a month later he came to me and said "I have to go potty" (believe me I was SHOCKED) and he went to the potty and literally never needed a diaper from that day on. When it became a choice that he could make, not one we were pushing on him, he made it. Yes, he had to miss out on 4 year old preschool because of his delay, but in the end it didn't matter. Knowing my son and how stubborn he is, if we had been pushing him, we probably STILL would be fighting over this issue (okay, maybe a bit of an exaggeration there, but it would have gone on a long time).

I agree you should put him back in a pull up (no matter what dh thinks) and just ignore the problem. Let it be your ds's decision. It is his body after all.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
All of the kids we used to hang out with on a regular basis are in school! We are really lacking for social engagement these days. That is one of the reasons I want him in school, so he can get to make friends that he will see on a daily basis. I also think that once he is in school this issue will disappear... when he hears about other kids using the toilet I think that will be a big motivator for him.

My mom thinks I should just send him to school and expect to be called if he needs to be picked up because he had an accident. I will be working nights and will be home sleeping while he's in school.

I kind of agree with your mom, although it might be a rocky road for you. It's just that if nothing else is working, it might be time to let it go and trust life to handle it.

I mean I would certainly talk with your son about it now, and maybe try a day camp if there is a good one around to give him a 'trial run.' But it just sounds so stressful and maybe removing that stress is a good thing.

It might be hard for your son to be the "poopy kid" but I am guessing he will pick up on the expectation at school pretty quickly.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I would be extremely cautious about an upping the ante approach, e.g., "We aren't leaving the house until you poop in the toilet..." This is already so stressful for him... it may work, or he may withhold his bowel movements, turning your already stressful situation into a far more stressful one as he becomes increasingly uncomfortable and increasingly good at holding in his bowel movements.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
I know how you feel, and my child does have a medical problem. It just got to the point where I had to say "Look, you need to clean yourself up. I will help you and show you how, but you need to do this".
...

You just have to step back and say "I know you can handle this". It won't be perfect, but ownership of a problem goes a long way in solving it.

This is the approach that we used with ds - I scaffolded him a bit, but basically, he had to put on his own pull-up, help take it off and help clean himself up. Within 3 days he was trying on the potty.

If he has no medical problem, I would simply turn more of it over to him. Right now, it's not that big of a deal for him. He poops, you get mad and clean him up, he goes back to playing.

However, if he's more responsible, then it's:
-He poops
-He cleans himself up
-He loses playing time

You supervise and try to be your most zen while he does it.


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## ma_Donna (Jan 11, 2003)

It's hard to see a clear path when something becomes an Issue (for us it's getting dressed). One path is not letting it be an Issue... it's HARD. I hope you all come to a point where you find peace soon.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
I would be extremely cautious about an upping the ante approach, e.g., "We aren't leaving the house until you poop in the toilet..." This is already so stressful for him... it may work, or he may withhold his bowel movements, turning your already stressful situation into a far more stressful one as he becomes increasingly uncomfortable and increasingly good at holding in his bowel movements.

Well, except that I'm not TELLING him we're doing this... we're just kind of doing it.


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## AnnasMominPA (Jan 13, 2005)

Lisa,

I have one little suggestion. Let him blow the bubbles while you do the popping. For my DD blowing bubbles with slow deep breaths while she was on the potty allowed her to relax instead of tense up when trying to poop. It also made her less afraid of pooping on the potty.

At 5 she will still blow pretend bubbles while pooping. I make a circle with my fingers and she takes a long deep breath. Then I make the pretend bubble do something like dance or hit the wall, or be one of her favorite characters. The pretend bubbles usually happen when we are not at home.

Normally I don't allow bubbles in the house just outside. Having them while learning to poop on the toliet was our only exception to this rule.

Hope this helps.

Angela


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

My son and daughter always poop when they have a 'fiddly' toy that occupies their hands, like a rubick's cube, or something with a dial. Could he play with something on the toilet? I have heard playing with playdough 15 minutes after a large meal helps too.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
I have to disagree. I think this sounds more like a control issue. I read her other post too... and it seems to me that he is being "defiaint" about this. I am all about letting kids have control, but there comes a point when lines have to be drawn.

And I also think using a bidet to clean him is a perfeectly reasonable consequence to pooping in your pants when you are 4 yrs old and can understand why its happening.

I agree.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I think that your latest idea is very good, Lisa. You can't turn it into a power struggle. You won't win. I almost guarantee it. You have to do it on his terms, and find a way of doing in which he can still have some control. The bowel control kids can have is unbelievable. And a lot of them use it. And with the power struggle, you (not personally) end up with kids who are 8, or 9 with toileting problems.

I love the idea of having him sit on the toilet every hour. That is one of the things I do with SN kids I am teaching to use the toilet. Lots of opportunities for success, making a HUGE deal for success, and no punishment for accidents.

I also love the idea of a special toy. Some of my students have a special toy they pick out that stays in the bathroom that they only play with while on the toilet. some of them just didn't want to sit still long enough for the poop to happen, but with a great toy, they can sit much longer.

I would also suggest a toilet insert seat, which it sounds like you haven't tried yet? Baby Bjorn makes them - they are adjustable and make the seat fit a kid your son's age.

What is it about the wipes he doesn't like? Are they too cold, or the feel of the cloth on his skin? What about other options? He needs to start wiping himself, even if he just does it with TP or paper towels (for more control and less mess) and then you do a quick spray afterwards (not really necessary once he can go in the toilet.)


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
This morning he sat on the potty willingly while I blew bubbles for him to pop. We'll probably sit on the potty every hour or so.

Congrats on some success!

I know it's hard for you...my DD was a late potty trainer too and she had lots of poop accidents - yuck!

I think the rule of thumb is, when you have a setback, then go back a step in your training and repeat it. I think your idea to just sit on the potty every hour for a few days (or 2 weeks in my case!) is a good one. For kids with SN (like my DD) we're told to just set up a schedule for them to go potty and NOT wait until they tell us they need to go. Parents are much more successful with a schedule apparently.

I was interested when I read that your son will hold the poop if you put him on the potty....do you think he's scared of the poop dropping away from him into the water? What is his response to sitting on a small potty seat instead? I read somewhere (can't remember) that pooping is hard for lots of kids because it's kind of like a part of them is dropping away. Some kids are really freaked out by that!

Also, your son may have some sensory issues about pooping (my DD has sensory issues too)....maybe he needs to feel more "enclosed"? Maybe you could put him on a small conforming potty chair (you know the all in ones) and then put a weighted blanket across his knees to help him feel more secure? Or put him so he's in a crouching position with his knees above his hips?

Anyway, if he can't tell you why he's more comfortable going in his pants, maybe you can do some thinking about where and how he normally goes and see if you can replicate those conditions somehow.

And definitely don't act disgusted when he poops his pants...it'll just increase his shame and feel like it's something he needs to hide - thus making your job harder.

I know these are off the wall suggestions, but maybe they'll help.
peace,
robyn


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I've known enough four year olds who exhibit this exact behavior to make me believe that it is fairly normal. Extremely frustrating -- yes. But not abnormal or out of the range of ordinary.

I have also seen more frustration over this issue than any other, and have read from multiple sources that the most common trigger of child abuse is toilet training problems. For a combination of reasons, toileting is a big hot point for a heck of a lot of parents.

I hear that you are burned out, depleted of resources, and ready to be done. I don't think anyone has a solution for you. Some of us have reached that point with regard to sleep issues, food issues, etc.... but the bottom line is that when it comes to bodily functions, we cannot control our kids to the extent that sometimes we'd like to. We cannot (ethically) force them to sleep, or eat, or poop on command. These are areas that they have control over.

"Let it go," is easier said than done, but when you are engaged in this kind of power struggle, the only way out is if one person lets go. (Picture those finger-cuff thingies: http://content.answers.com/main/cont...Fingertrap.jpg )

The more you push and struggle and pressure -- the harder it is going to be for him to make a wise choice about this. When you let go, and he has some space, he will step up. Nobody likes pooping their pants after they reach the point of learning a better way.

What happens when you put a pull-up on him? What about it doesn't work? Does he take it off again?

And I agree with your mom about sending to school "as-is." Kids behave competely differently in school, surrounded by peers who act in conventional ways and teachers. It may go beautifully. Either that, or maybe he will just hold it until he gets home. (Which both my kids have always done.) Worst case scenerio -- he poops his pants at school, his everyone learns from it, or you are back to square one (which is where you would be anyway.)


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I also wanted to ask how the bathroom is set up and what sort of privacy he has, etc. One of my students with autism could pee in the toilet for 4 years before he got it poop-wise. (He was 4 when we pee-trained him.) His mom struggled on and off for years to try different things. Finally what worked was a combination of a daily fiber drink and making sure he always closed the door when he used the bathroom. And letting go on the part of the mom. Having that privacy and time to himself allowed him to go at his own pace (he would always hide to poop before - he wanted privacy). Now he has only had 1 accident in about 8 months.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

I sympathize. I got to a bad place with my daughter, who went from pooping in the potty to....disappearing and getting a funny look on her face. She was withholding, and trying to hold it back, and would get a little messy. This would happen multiple times a day, and I'd have her sit on the potty right at one of those times when I'd catch her and she obviously was having the urge, but nothing would happen. The cycle would repeat. I was changing her underwear multiple times a day and had to wash sooooo many of them. Then when she finally had to go and couldn't avoid it, she'd go in her pants. Full-on.

My reactions ran the gamut from non-reaction, to mild questioning and encouraging, to complete frustration, to anger. A lot of my negative feelings toward her were triggered by the helpless and fearful (fear response to not knowing the answer to "what do I do?") feelings the situation brought up in me. They also came from the desire to control her. And the impatience that we were dealing with this after previous success.

It got especially bad when I decided to go back to naked time (that always had worked when we hit any bumps in the past; suddenly she'd click back into finding the potty when she had to go.) But this time, she started pooping wherever she was, even though she had no bottoms on. It really backfired for me because I was _angry_ that my "solution" hadn't worked, that it was a real pain to clean up, and that she had reacted this way. It wasn't "supposed" to happen this way.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to offer you a solution, just saying that I recognize the frustration and the tendency to feel like "this kid can _do_ this and I'm mad that he won't."

I guess maybe watch out for when your parenting/love might become conditional. I am vulnerable to that, and to being pulled toward coercion, trying to dominate and control. Definitely feeling like I have the _right_ to force.

We've had success in coming out on the other side with my daughter, but I have the feeling that you've heard all the suggestions before, so I won't assume that any of it will help. (In fact, I'm not even sure what "worked," but I know I disengaged from the emotional cycle I was in. We had the same "talks" about poop & pee being things our bodies don't need, and how it's important to listen to our bodies and the signals they give. She continued to go for "too long" between movements, but then she'd have a big one and it would be soft, so I just told myself to let go of my mental regulating or whatever. She mentioned to me, after pooping on the potty again several days in a row, "I felt my body saying it needed to poop, and I listened to my body. I said, 'Sure, body!' And I pooped!" That was like the most precious moment ever. "Sure, body!")

The real reason I am posting is because of a previous post....

Did you check out BellinghamCrunchie's link or do the search on the suggested term?

I know you responded that you don't think he's got a medical problem, and that he'll get checked out by the ped soon but you don't think there's anything wrong, but the term she suggested really isn't about a medical problem. Here's one quote:

Quote:

About 5-20% of ALL encopresis cases are nonretentive encopresis and have _no physical condition that bars normal toileting behaviors_. This type, *functional encopresis*, is _a behavioral condition_ in which the child refuses to defecate in a toilet.

The information presented here are general guidelines and are meant to provide you the parent with some knowledge and information, so that you can have a more informed conversation with your physician or your child's pediatrician.
BellinghamCrunchie mentioned something about having searched again and finding suggestions for family plans/responses or something along those problem-solving strategy-type lines....sounds promising. I hope you'll investigate.

Here's an article on the subject, including a discussion of intervention, from the American Academy of Family Physicians:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/990415ap/2171.html

From the little summary at the top:

Quote:

Nonretentive encopresis refers to inappropriate soiling without evidence of fecal constipation and retention. This form of encopresis accounts for up to 20 percent of all cases. _Characteristics include soiling accompanied by daily bowel movements that are normal in size and consistency. An organic cause for nonretentive encopresis is rarely identified. The medical assessment is usually normal, and signs of constipation are noticeably absent._ A full developmental and behavioral assessment should be made to establish that the child is ready for intervention to correct encopresis and to identify any barriers to success, particularly disruptive behavior problems.


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