# Anyone familiar with Elizabeth Pantley's techniques on sleep



## s4sherri (Jul 22, 2005)

Hello. I have a 9 month old baby boy who does not sleep through the night. He is very high-need. He wakes about 8 times in a 10 hour period to nurse. I know he has a sucking to sleep association and I want to help him learn to sleep on his own. I have been trying techniques in Pantley's book, _the no-cry sleep solution._ I am not having any success and it's been 3 months. I'm not sure if I'm doing the techniques correctly. I don't believe in CIO, but I'm getting pressure from friends, family and the pediatrician. Help! I would love to hear advice and stories from anyone who has tried Pantley's techniques and had success.

Thanks, Sherri


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

HI, and welcome! The NCSS is very popular around here and many mamas here use it. I personally, didn't have success with it since it seems to be about keeping your kids sleeping and my ds had trouble going to sleep but would sleep once he fell asleep. Please don't let your baby CIO, inspite of pressure to do so. It is 100% normal for a baby to not sleep through the night-- my 2 year old has never slept through the night-- but 8 nursings in 10 hours is a lot for you. Give us more info. How long is he nursing each time, what time does he sleep, nap, wake up, and where does he sleep. I am sure someone here can help!
Here is a recent discussion of NCSS:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=NCSS


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## s4sherri (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi again. Thanks Flor for the response. Well, my baby takes two naps that total 3 hours, but I have to intervene after the first 35 minutes of each nap to get him to sleep more. His first nap is usually around 9:30 AM and the second nap around 2:30 PM. Basically, he does not nap very good on his own. My baby has been co-sleeping with me and my husband since 3 months of age. I have a crib set-up in our room and it is against our bed. I have been trying to put him in it for the night, but with all the night wakings, I eventually bring him into our bed. He usually goes to bed between 8:30 and 9:30 PM. It takes me about 10-15 minutes to get him asleep. He then stays asleep for 40 minutes and wakes-up crying to nurse. He longest sleep stretch is 1 hour and 30 minutes. He only nurses between 5-8 minutes at a time and then I remove the breast from his mouth and place him down. Sometimes he does not want me to put him down and starts crying all over again. I try to see if he is just making night noises, but he cries harder and sits up. I've tried patty his back, rubbing his tummy or head, but nothing calms him down unless I pick him up and give him the breast. I have been trying Pantley's gentle removal for the past month and have not seen any progress. I'm so desperate for help. The thought of CIO makes me cry and stress. My baby is so precious and I don't want him to suffer for my mistake. I'm getting worried about his lack of good quality sleep. How does it effect a baby's development?


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

My dd who will be 3 next month didn't sleep well, for her, until 18 months. Up until that point, just getting up after she went to sleeep at night to go to the bathroom risked waking her up.

I used the pantley pull off method for over a year w/ no change in her sleep. I think that the NCSS is great for non-high needs babies.

My point in telling you this is that it does get better w/o CIO. She now sleeps thru most nights. This didn't happen for her until dh took over w/ her at night and she was nightweaned. For some children, they do it all on their own. Dd needed to have daddy help her at night for it to happen. We didn't do any of this until she was over 2.5 y.o.

As for how it effects their development, my ped told me that she wasn't going to hurt herself by not getting what I thought was enough sleep. My opinion on everyone else giving you a hard time about how your child sleeps is that no one else is there w/ you at 3am, not your friends, mother, father, sister, pediatrician, maybe not even dh. You need to continue to do what works for the 2 of you and what feels right. There is a reason why CIO doesn't feel right; because it's not. It is only recently in human history that we have had anywehre to put babies who are supposed to CIO. No parent would do it and have to stay in the same room.

Keep doing what feels right and your child will sleep eventually. It's developmental and forcing development milestones has consequences for all involved.

Sus


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Hey there. NCSS didn't do a whole lot for me either. Though I did get some success from the gentle release method. I have a high-need baby too, though he is starting to be less so, at least during the day.
So, NCSS didn't help our night wakings. DS is almost 1 yo, and he wakes up anywhere from 3-8 times in a 10-12 hour period. I think this started about 7 mos or so. I have found a few things that have worked for us, though. When he is walked to sleep, his first stretch of sleep tends to be 3-7 hours (it's usually an hour or 2). It also helps if we walk him for a while, then end up nursing to sleep. Either way, his first wake up is later. I think this is also helping him to break the nursing to sleep association. I figure anytime he goes to sleep without nursing helps!
The other thing that I've found that seems to help out that first stretch is to let him do whatever he wants to do in the bedroom. I let him do whatever he wants (as long as it's not rowdy) and let him nurse whenever he wants to. He usually ends up nursing then playing a couple of times, then comes back and nurses a bit then rolls over and gets comfy and falls asleep without nursing. The more I do this, the better he seems to be getting at falling asleep without nursing. Of course, he still needs to nurse, but he's not falling asleep with a boob in his mouth, and that seems like a step in the right direction! And he seems to wake up less on nights that we do that.

Anyways, sorry I couldn't be an NCSS success story, but I thought I'd let you know what seems to be helping the nursing to sleep association here.


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## tempestjewel (Apr 18, 2005)

I just got done reading Pantley's new NCSS book for toddlers and preschoolers, because I read her first one when DD was about 12 months old and none of the techniques seemed to help.

Different children just seem to have different needs at night, my DD is 19 months and nursing every two hours. She goes to sleep in her own bed at the beginning of the night (with me sitting by her) but as soon as she wakes up once (usually 2 hours after bedtime) its in to bed with us because otherwise its a 30 minute battle to get her to sleep on her own for maybe 15-20 minutes- not worth it. I thought once she learned how to go to bed at the beginning of the night without nursing she'd be able to sleep the rest of the night without it.

For DD I'm starting to think she is having some pretty severe seperation anxiety, hence her clinginess and wanting to nurse often. Sometimes I feel like she nurses just to know that "mommy is still there" because she definitely isn't taking more then a quick snack at our nightime nursing sessions.

I guess what I'm trying to say underneath all of my







is that maybe its just your baby needing you more right now, something besides just a "sucking to sleep" association... I am convinced it is for us and its helped me to stand up to others who question it.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Do you think the transfering of baby back to crib is waking dc up? Is your crib next to bed with the rail up or did you remove the rail and sidecar the crib? I've had success with that. Our babe is actually in his crib but when he releases me and can just scoot him or roll him a bit back to his space and it isn't as disturbing to everyone as lifting him over the rail again.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Her techniques didn't work on my high needs son, either, and I think it's common for them not to work. I think they may work for some, but not all, as with anything. I would look into why your ds is awaking so often. Could it be allergies? Sensitivity to noise? Could white or pink noise help? Have you tried a homeopath? Anyway, best wishes, and remember, this too shall pass!


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## s4sherri (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi everyone. Thank you for all your posts.

My ds is trying to walk now. So I understand that could be it. But he's never been a good sleeper with or without these developmental milestones. He's not going through any teething pain at this moment, so I can't say that is the cause for his current night wakings. I know he is very high-need and I give him so much love and attention morning, day and night. I'm a stay-at-home mom for now. I was planning on going back to work in October, but at this rate, I have to re-think that thought.

Going back to all your questions . . . I have the rail of the crib removed. I thought the crib sleeping might have been the problem so I stopped for a while and his sleeping did not improve. Maybe I am making progress with the gental removal plan when nursing him at night . . . sometimes when he wakes I nurse him and he eats a let-down and then releases himself and stretches. That's my que to put him down. Once I put him down he falls asleep, but only for 20 minutes. He then starts to roll from side to side like he is uncomfortable and then wakes-up crying. He'll do this maybe two more times in one hour before he eventually falls asleep for only a hour. Then the whole ritual again. I think something is bothering him. He doesn't have allergies. He is a light sleeper like me. I have white noise in the background to block out any startling noises. I live in NJ, so far this summer has been very hot for us. I have AC in the house and at night we sleep with it on. Could his clothing be the problem. I put him in long-sleeved onesies with long cotton pj pants. He does not like covers on him and I worry that he might be cold, so that is why I put him the long stuff. How do you all dress your baby for night? I think you're right Pookietooth-have you tried homeopath on your son? I have to find out what is making him toss and turn. I would love to reduce his night wakings from 8-10 to 4-5 at this point. I'm open to any other suggestions that might be the cause of his tossing and turning.

Thanks, Sherri


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## MovingMomma (Apr 28, 2004)

We dress dd in a diaper w/out a cover & nothing else for sleeping when it is hot. We set the A/C for 79, and her pajamas come off when we stay over about 74 all night.

Another thought for frequent wakings: Could baby need to potty? We EC, and I know it sounds counterintuitive to get out of bed & potty the baby when s/he wakes, but I got much better sleep after we started doing that. Longer stretches, and deeper sleep between wakings, too, since dd was much less wiggly when she got a chance to completely empty her bladder.


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

we had no success w/ncss, either. in fact, it made things worse b/c after all the charts you keep, i realized how little sleep i was actually getting and it depressed me. read my post called "All-night nursing solution". your baby is probably a little young yet, but once he starts walking, or maybe even just pulling himself to a stand, you can try it. that's what i'll be doing w/our next child. also, we saw a homeopath, and still do, but she couldn't help w/the sleep.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Do you cloth-diaper at night or use a disposable? We used disposable for the night, but DD would still wake up if she peed and be tossing and turning until changed.

I did not feel much wetness when touching the diaper, but apparently it was enough for her. So my thought was - if he starts taossing and turning 20 or so minutes after nursing - couls it be because he is wet?

Just my 2 cents...


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## s4sherri (Jul 22, 2005)

I use disposable diapers. I usually change him once during the night. I kinda dread it, only because he sometimes wakes-up and wants to play for two hours. Tonight I'm going to dress him in a short-sleeve romper. I'm going to use the Dr. Sear's night waking checklist.

dkeoshian-the standing thing with your son . . . does he cry, fall over because he's tired, etc . . .?


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

funny, i just posted a reply in that thread about falling over and crying. he did protest a bit at first, but i was consistent. i think that starting out the night nursing at the stool helped. and remember, i wasn't refusing to nurse, just nursing in a different place. eventually, he actually would crawl over to the stool and tell me to come over, too. i cut down the nursing to ten seconds on each side b/c he was starting to fall back asleep standing up. i really think he was asleep through most of it.


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## cosmicpuma (Jul 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgaydeski*
We dress dd in a diaper w/out a cover & nothing else for sleeping when it is hot. We set the A/C for 79, and her pajamas come off when we stay over about 74 all night.

Another thought for frequent wakings: Could baby need to potty? We EC, and I know it sounds counterintuitive to get out of bed & potty the baby when s/he wakes, but I got much better sleep after we started doing that. Longer stretches, and deeper sleep between wakings, too, since dd was much less wiggly when she got a chance to completely empty her bladder.

When did you start EC with your dd? And what resources did you find that helped you with this? I don't have much background info at this point. Thanks.

Allison, mom to Shannon 9/9/04


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## 3under5 (Sep 20, 2004)

Hi,
We have three kids, and we've been through this three times. Your daughter sounds a lot like our first at that age, and I remember ell the exhaustion. What we did in the end to survive eas completely give up on the crib for good until he was old enough to get to our bed on his own and had a sister to share sleep with, and except our fate. When we gave up on feeling we had to do something about it and just rode with it it seemed to get better on its own. I know this isn't for everyone, but I can't believe how many times now I have had the surprise of seeing my perspective mattering more than technique.

I also got really efficient at night nursing so that I could sleep through it if i got used as a human pacifier during the tricky point. Then (I did this with the first two, the youngest isn't that old yet) at about 16 months (or when they could understand) I told them that my at sleep time my breasts had to go to sleep, too, and offered to cuddle instead. But this worked because they were older.

We also did the pretending to sleep and being very boring thing if any of them got playful at night.

Hope this is usefel, while it's more of La Leche League type advice than anything from no cry sleep solution.


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## MovingMomma (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cosmicpuma*
When did you start EC with your dd? And what resources did you find that helped you with this? I don't have much background info at this point. Thanks.

We started EC when dd was 3 weeks. We started nighttime EC at 3 or 4 months.

This is my favorite website for explaining the basics: http://www.freewebs.com/freetoec/

I highly recommend Ingrid Bauer's book "Diaper Free!":
http://www.natural-wisdom.com/

This is a website with tips for late starters:
http://www.white-boucke.com/reviews/latestarters.html

And a yahoo group for late starters:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IPTLateStarters/

DiaperFreeBaby, an international support group with local, real-life meetings:
http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/

And there's the EC board on MDC!
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...play.php?f=227


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## ChiriMama (Jul 23, 2005)

It sounds like you have a high-needs baby, and the NCSS doesn't seem to be so good for those darlings. I nanny a toddler who sounds much like your DS...he is restless even when he naps, though it's better now that he is 16 months old...that said, sometimes I still need to go in after 30 or 40 minutes and tell him it's nap time all over again (at least now he listens!). I sympathize with the challenges. My own son has been a fairly good sleeper, though around 7-8 months of age and again just before a year he was really restless at night and wanting to nurse more frequently. He'd be fine during the day. Both times he ended up with teeth about 2-3 weeks later. Also, my son gets really hot quickly. Even if the room is chilly, and I am freezing without the heavy comforter, he only wants to sleep in a diaper with no covers. I had tried the footed sleepers, and he'd kick the snaps open so his legs would be free, and more often than not, he'd have an arm out by morning. But he's immune to the wet diapers.

Some babies are just more sensitive than others; some rouse out of a sleep cycle instead of settling themselves. It sounds like your darling is one of those...it's not unusual at all. I did want to cut down on the nighttime feedings around 7 months of age because I'm a single mom, and it was Wearing Me Out...I admit, cosleeping for that month was hard for me because I felt so touched out. I didn't want that to carry over to the daytime hours, so I did start setting some limits. I never let him CIO, and I wouldn't have a conversation, but I would say something along the lines of "it's time for sleep" or "it's nighttime, no nursey but cuddle". I have a strong-minded child, and he'd definitely protest, but he protests about a lot of things - he's 14 months old now, ha. For about a month it felt like a heated debate between us: he'd poke and prod me to nurse, I'd hush him, he'd grumble with a grating tone which I know is full of four-letter words in babyspeak, and he'd arch his back or kick as he does when he's not happy with an outcome. Sometimes this dance would be repeated several times. Then we'd either cuddle, I'd pretend to be asleep and let him resettle himself without interfering (which sometimes took a while), or I'd turn with my back to him, which has ended up being one of his favorite ways of sleeping now...he snuggles in. For a while I wasn't sure if it would work, and of course it hurt to hear him unhappy, but he wasn't crying...just complaining, and it did work. I would often let him nurse if he woke up to about 11 p.m. and then again starting around 5 a.m. (he's a 7:30 pm-6 am sleeper).

Best wishes!


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