# Anger over militantly anti-intervention beliefs



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Oh, wow, this brings up intense feelings for me. This probably won't be very coherent...

I was planning a homebirth when I was pregnant with Kevin. Everything seemed to be going well. The only odd thing is that I was much smaller with him than I had been with my other singleton (obviously I didn't compare him to my twin pregnancy). I got lots of comments on how small I looked, and one woman even asked me straight out if everything was okay. But my midwives were so nonchalant and reassuring. And I had an ultrasound at 17 weeks (with an OB, before I switched to the midwives) that showed he was measuring exactly right. The first hint I had of a problem was when I called the midwives when I was in labor at 37.5 weeks, and they commented that they didn't want me to deliver yet because my baby was too small. Well, he was already dead at that point, but I didn't know it yet. Several hours later they arrived and checked for a heartbeat and there wasn't one. He was stillborn two days later weighing 4.5 pounds and obviously hadn't been healthy. I have now talked to enough other midwives, labor nurses and OBs to know that a more competent care-provider would have done an ultrasound at 31 or 32 weeks, when my measurements started falling off. Their reactions when looking at my prenatal records have been adamant that I should have been sent immediately to the hospital with those numbers.

Too add insult to injury, my midwife submitted a fake chart to the state medical board. Yes, she fabricated three pages. I didn't see the chart until three months ago, when an investigator from the medical board met with me in response to the complaint I had filed. When I saw her chart, stating that she had offered me an ultrasound, but that I had declined it because I thought everything was fine, I just about passed out. She wrote so many false and negative things about me that my typed response came to eight pages. I had 28 items that I refuted. But when the investigator interviewed the assistant midwife, she lied, too. It was their word against mine. And it was a midwife who made the final decision that there wasn't enough evidence to indicate they had been negligent. I just found out about the decision last month, so it's still very fresh for me, even though Kevin's been gone for over two years.

So, not only do I feel that technology has an important place in pregnancy, but my feelings about midwives and homebirth are very conflicted, too. I definitely believe that homebirth can be wonderful and that there are some great midwives out there. But I can picture myself pregnant again someday, and some naive "natural mom" hearing that I'm going to a doctor asking, "Oh, have you ever considered homebirth?" I would probably have to punch her! (And for me it's not as simple as finding a better midwife. My husband was adamantly opposed to homebirth the whole time, so this really has made things tough for us, and I have also now had three c-sections, which complicates things, too. And please, I hope nobody feels the need to tell me moms have had successful homebirths after several c-sections, I know. I know! I was on the ICAN list during my pregnancy. Also, what midwife in our area would even take me, now that I've filed a complaint with the medical board!) There's so much that goes into our decision about where to birth and I'm so sick of the moms who think they have all the answers and that they have the right to sit in judgement of me and my choices.

People just have no idea what some of us have gone through. A friend who was due in November told me at the end of her pregnancy that she knew that if her baby were to die she would be okay. I haven't been able to talk to her since. The only reason she could say that is because she still had the luxury of being pregnant with a living baby. It's the same with people who talk about "what was meant to be". They still have the luxury of imagining how they would react. Even though I know on a deep level that everything that happened with Kevin happened the way it was supposed to, I still have to work through all the anger about my midwives' negligence, and now they've added dishonesty to their negligence.

All I can say is, yes, I hear you. And I'm so sorry about your baby girl...

Love,
Katherine


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

My son's life was saved by interventions. I wouldn't have it any other way. So sad to hear about the losses of both of your beautiful babies. Love to you both.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I feel really sorry for both of you. ): I don't understand the depth of your pain & anger, but I do understand what you are both saying. I'm sorry.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

While I can never understand what it's like to lose a child, I'd like to respectfully open dialogue on this topic, as I feel I could be labeled "militant" about this issue.

First off, the quad screen and triple screen are notoriously anxiety-producing. Most women who have their blood drawn are never told WHY they're having it done or that the draw is for a SCREEN, which means that it is NOT diagnostic, and that it has a absurdly high false-positive rate.

If women were told these things off the bat, instead of being called by a nurse and being told things like "down syndrome" or "spina bifida" while a woman waits days or weeks for a follow-up ultrasound, fearing the worst, then I feel like women could choose this test if they wanted it.

The benefits from this test across the board are slight. Each woman has to decide for herself if it's a choice she wants to make. However, women are not given choices or even informatio. What I get are emails and phone calls from women who have received a positive result and are crazed with fear and despair over the perceived results....some of them go on to have risky amniocentesis performed, only to find out that the screen was wrong and the baby is normal. Never mind that it takes a good week to ten days to receive the results.

riotkrrn, I'm sorry you lost your daughter. Was this because the triple screen was performed and not the quad? Or did you waive the screen altogether? While we place alot of faith in ultrasounds finding problems, they rarely find the problems we want them to and find other issues that are not really problems at all, but create a level of anxiety. If you had taken the screen and still had your u/s at 19 weeks (which, in light of a positive screen would be the nest low-invasive test), it could have still had the same results as your u/s did.

Prenatal testing is highly personal. However, the Triple Screen and Quad Screen are two tests that I feel are misrepresented to women. My issue is with true informed choice in the matter of prenatal testing. However, many women rarely receive information, let alone a choice.

If being angry at the way testing is presented to women, if being upset that we as a culture fear "deformed" babies and would like to get "rid" of them early (which is a 'benefit' of the Triple Screen, according to many docs), if I feel that women need to have CHOICES and be told what is being done within their care - if all that makes me militant, then so be it.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

never mind


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

No, I don't.

Frankly, I see that we're on the same page, really: that informed choice is what is necessary. Did you feel that you did not receive full informed choice about the screen?

Hindsight is not only 20/20, it's also incredibly painful at times. I can never understand what you went through. I don't pretend that I can.

I think we agree that more information needs to be given to women, at the time of the screen and when the "news" is delivered to women. Over the phone, usually by a stranger in the office, there needs to be some reassurance that this is not diagnostic and the odds are in a woman's favor that things are ok.

A few countries I know do not perform this type of prenatal testing. I'm not sure the reasoning for it, but I would bet that the inaccuracies of the screen could be a piece of it.

Once again, I'm sorry for your loss. I also feel like this is probably the wrong forum to discuss such an issue and if I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

riotkrrn, I would never think of someone speaking their truth and their personal experience as whining. you have every right to say what you need to say to convey what you feel is important.

I just want you to know that I hear you.


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

riotkrrn--

Thanks so much for bringing up this topic. I think what it really comes down to is respecting the various choices we make for ourselves and our families. When I was pregnant with Kevin, I was thinking with an all-or-nothing mindset. To me, everything about the medical establishment was "bad". Everything about midwifery, homebirth, and "natural" mothering was "good". I was one of those moms judging other moms for wanting any sort of intervention. That belief system set me up for following my midwives blindly instead of paying better attention to my own body and my own intuition. It was such a wake-up call to me that the care I received in the hospital was infinitely more compassionate and thorough than the treatment I received from my midwives. Now that your post has caused me to reflect, I realize just how far I have come in being able to embrace the good to be found in both systems. There is a time and a place for almost everything, depending on individual circumstances. I notice that I have much more respect now for the choices other women make during their pregnancies and births. And, pamamidwife, your points about informed consent are important, too. The more educated we can be, the better-informed our choices will be. But I notice that my tendency to judge another mom for her approach has pretty much dissipated. Instead I feel compassion for each woman, because I will never know all the circumstances that have brought her to where she is, just as another woman who might judge me would never understand all that has gone into my decisions.

This reminds me of a friend whose mother-in-law is a fanatic homebirther who was very upset that my friend chose to birth in a hospital. When my friend's baby was born with a very severe heart defect (life-flighted to Stanford), the mother-in-law was able to admit that she could finally see that there is a time and a place for a hospital. We all have such different journeys, don't we?

Now if I could just think of a light-hearted way to deflect those judgemental comments without going ballistic...


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

Riotkrrn, I commend you for bringing up this difficult subject here. I agree completely with everything you said. I am also so sorry to hear about Mary.

I don`t think its a matter of having a choice and then not choosing it, its hard to confront a pervasive atmosphere of "oh, trust your body, nature is perfect, enjoy your pregnancy, your body won`t build a baby too big to get out" etc etc etc. You feel like some weirdo for having doubts, later you feel horrible, like you may have ignored your own instincts. (my experience)

Actually, horrible stuff happens in nature all the time, like tornadoes and the tsunami. My friend`s puppy got brain damage from birth and calves die in labor too. I lost my second son to severe shoulder dystocia, at a home birth. I believed all that stuff too, I still support home birth but I am so much less judgemental now. Whatever works for a mom is fine, there is too much at stake. Everything was done correctly at my birth, I have nobody to blame, and I don`t want to derail here with all the details, just that I understand all of the conflicted emotions. My son was eventually delivered in the hospital after about 15 different positions, paramedics trying & a 5 minute ambu ride & lived for 7 weeks in a coma and I was treated like the homebirth nightmare. While most women get to stay blissfully at home, I was the face of all that can go wrong. Even though the severity of my case would have had the same result if I`d been the whole time in a hospital (the OB even agreed) it is hard when I have friends who have homebirthed that say "Oh, if I`d known your story I never would have had my baby at home." Then I feel like I have to defend hb all over again! Oh, the contradictions.

This is definitely not the place for a debate, really just support. People who haven`t had losses are brave to try and debate anything here.


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

KAtherinein Ca, I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am about little Kevin too.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

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## HaveWool~Will Felt (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
I just want you to know that I hear you.

Thank you all for your great insight and heart felt words.
I agree with Pamela, I HEAR YOU....

I have, personally, been on both sides of the fence....







's all around!!!


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
I'm made to feel as though the only possible reason I would choose care that didn't fall into that category is because I've been brainwashed by mainstream culture.

That is what drives me nuts- women who are not educated on choice and they have been "brainwashed" into a minstream culture- or really a pocket book greedy medical culture. I support any woman who had educated themselves and all choices they make. It is after all your body, your baby and your life. I wish that doctors would tell women the full circle of what test are for and what the risk is and what the rate is of correct information.

I do have a condition where (as told by a OB) "your baby could break a rib and it could hit a lung and your baby could die!" ... I hate the fear factor that some doctors put in women. I have decided to do no test- besides blood, and I have looked at my options. But I also support my sister who has the same condition and decided to have all the test she could. It is personal and a choice.

As long as there are mamas, midwives and some good doctors out there educating- that is really all we can do. I support education!

I am sorry for all of you who have lost a child. I cant even imagine, and my heart goes out to you. I am glad you are caring mothers who are trying to make a difference!


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

This is a great discussion. Thank you for starting it. I am sorry to hear about your losses.

I know how you feel having lost my daughter at home. i am pg again and relooking at my beliefs about "natural" and non-intervention. I know that there are problems with the medical standards in OB practice in this country but there are problems with midwives too. I am probably going to have another homebirth but i have been struggling with this decision. I wonder if the cascade of interventions might have inadvertantly saved my daughter by getting her out faster. I had a long labor and 3 hours of pushing but i don't blame my midwives at all. I'm so sorry that your midwives were so neglectful and dishonest. I can't imagine what it must be like to know that someone else's poor judgement lead to your babies death. With my first, i had no testing except the initial bloodwork. My midwives are pretty anti-testing and ultrasound but did give me a lot of info about all the tests that could be performed and offered them to me. The high false-positive rate is my main reason for refusing the triple and quad screens but this time around, i did have a level II ultrasound and will probably have another closer to my delivery.

The key for mothers on both sides of the debate i think is weighing risks. There are no guarantees and every choice you make has risks that go along with it. There are risks in homebirth when the rare occurs and a hospital is needed but you can't get there fast enough. unfortunately, there are other situations where the hospital creates problems that wouldn't have happened at home. Those of us who have lost babies are keenly aware that there are no guarantees. For me, every decision is difficult to make.

I agree that it is very unfortunate that so many women act in ignorance as a result of a lack of full disclosure by caregivers. It makes me angry that the medical community can't learn from the natural community and make compromises that might lead to the best outcomes. Why can't we have homelike conditions in a hospital but still have the medical technology available when it's needed? I hate that it has to be either/or. I hate that there are no "right" choices or "best" decisions, no guarantees!


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Just want to thank each of you for this discussion. It feels so good to hear other moms articulating some of the same things I have struggled with. I really relate to reconsidering the "no-intervention" mindset while at the same time still supporting homebirth. Berkeleyp--I applaud your courage in considering another homebirth. So many people run to the "other side" after losing a baby. For some, the "other side" is homebirth if they lost their baby with an OB. It's much more difficult to carefully consider all the options. Again, thank you all so much. I have spent two years feeling that I couldn't voice these thoughts because my first tentative efforts were met with so much resistance and judgement.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Thank you all for this thread. I have learned some things I did not know about prenatal screening. I was, as a PP described, under the impression that there was no point to prenatal screening if you would not consider termination. Thanks for getting this information out there. I want to have a peaceful, private homebirth for my next baby but I want to take advantage of the medical/technological resources available to me during pregnancy before going forward with that homebirth.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I do believe in pre-natal tests.

I intend with every pregancy I happen to have that I have a Level II Ultrasound. Why? because I nearly lost my daughter due to umbilical cord issues. A month later my neice died from Umbilical cord issues.

More children are lost through umbilical cord accidents than through SIDS. While I understand the cord is often wrapped and babies are born just fine just the _knowledge_ that there is a possible complication will empower the mother to know more about choices and being able to make them rather than having to make a last minute decision or go through a shocking and devastating loss.

Just a gentle reminder that debating is not permitted in this forum so if you would like to participate in this this discussion please remain peaceful and gentle.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

I really appreciate the thoughts in this thread as well.

abimommy, where would you suggest a conversation (possibly debate) like this take place on MDC? I'm curious because I personally wouldn't feel as comfortable having this discussion on some of the other boards, particularly if women haven't experienced a loss. This discussion is so unique to our own experiences as mothers of dead babies, especially as it compares to NFL.

I've been thinking about this alot- everyone being at different points in the grief process and how do we make space for those of us that are ready to move past support and into other areas, which may include challenging of our beliefs? Probably more of a rhetorical question than anything.

There are some of us that are beginning to work on a piece of writing about 3rd Trimester pregnancy loss from the perspective of those who are influenced by NFL/AP, wholistic living. Some of the issues that have been raised here are what we would like to talk about in the article. If anyone here in interested in participating, please pm me or email me through the MDC website.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I'm so sorry for your loss








My SIL is a homebirther like the rest of my family and she had 3 ultrasounds with her mott recent pregnancy. She had none with her other two. My brother kept teasing her about it when they were around me and I finally put a stop to it by telling him that he should trust a mother's instinct. Their 2nd child was born with a cleft lip and it was very unexpected and really put a damper on the birth for them. I completely supported my SIL in her desire to have ultrasound screening and other prenatal testing along with her midwifery care and planned homebirth. I think information is the key to feeling safe and supported in pregnancy and birth.


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

ST, I`m not trying to answer for Abimommy here, but what I noticed was some of the people debating this issue here in this forum had not had losses. That`s why I commented that it was pretty brave of them to do that here. I really think this forum should be about venting and supporting, I read here all the time, haven`t yet formally told my story, but love that this place exists. If people come on and start questioning us that haven`t even been close to being in our shoes, I would be pretty upset.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

liseux thank your for sharing your perspective. I'm sorry for your loss. Panamidwife has shared her about her experience with helping a mother give birth to a dead baby and I know that it weighed very heavily on her and caused her to question some of her beliefs. That of course isn't the same as living through it yourself. I can see how that could make someone uncomfortable.
But I also wouldn't feel comfortable having this discussion on the I'm pregnant forum for the same reasons you express.

The OP is 3 years past her loss and with me being 13 months past it, I'm ready to have tough discussions that I probably wasn't ready to have a few months ago, so I def. understand where you are coming from.
I'm not sure there's a right answer for everyone.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
It seems like one thing that those of us who have lost a child have in common is a feeling of betrayal by the natural living community -

Oh my God... I never thought of it that way before. I'm so sorry. What a terrible thing to layer onto your already impossible situation. I am generally anti-intervention but am also a big believer in mothers instinct, in getting educated and making informed choices. I can't imagine how it would feel to have been pressured in any way to make decisions that could have resulted in such a dreadful loss. As an natural birth advocate I want to say that I am very, very sorry if anything I have ever said to anyone contributed to a feeling like this. What I have read here will make me more thoughtful about how I address some discussions in the future.

Thank you mommas, for sharing your experiences with us.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

abimommy, where would you suggest a conversation (possibly debate) like this take place on MDC? I'm curious because I personally wouldn't feel as comfortable having this discussion on some of the other boards, particularly if women haven't experienced a loss. This discussion is so unique to our own experiences as mothers of dead babies, especially as it compares to NFL.
Oh, I worded things poorly.







I edited so it made more sense..

I wasn't saying pamamidwife was wrong or anything of that nature, I was only reminding that debating isn't permitted in this forum. As long as it remains a peaceful and supportive discussion then it is fine.

I was only trying to remind that debating isn't permitted in this forum should this thread get more heated.

As long as this discussion remains primarily supportive and gentle then it is fine.

Carry on..


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

Sweet Teach, thank you. I am also sorry to hear about your precious son, Nazir. I wasn`t thinking of anyone in particular, just worried that it could get weird if some non loss survivors were reiterating the importance of all NFL things, especially in pregnancy. I am still very conflicted about all of this and will be for most of my life I`m sure and its been almost 3 years for me too. I love the opportunity to think about all of these issues with all of you.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I totally hear you. I wanted all kinds of testings during both my last pregnancies and had to deal with staunch resistance on the part of one of my midwives. The second midwife would have helped me get whatever testing I wanted, I must say, but was clear in her opinion on the risk of amnio not being worth it. She was respectful and informative. The first midwife was opposed to amnio out of fear I might have an abortion (though she would never come out and say the word) and her backup OB felt the same way. That attitude made me really angry. That baby was stillborn at 23 weeks. I spent my last pregnancy sick with fear that something was wrong with the baby. I chose not to do prenatal testing, but I was conflicted and wonder if testing would have assuaged my fears or made them worse. He's fine, he's healthy and terrific, but his birth was difficult and I wonder how much my fear contributed to it. I get very, very angry when I hear people say the testing is "fear-based thinking," and so on, and that problems are rare, and so on, and they'd be ok if their baby passed away. I don't hear anyone here saying if their baby died from vaccine complications they'd be ok with it. If I hear that from someone who has lived through it, I'll believe it. I've also heard that maybe having had an abortion made me lose my baby! Or that my fear must come from guilt I must unconsciously be harboring! I have felt my concerns trivialized just as women's desire for natural birth can be trivialized in hospitals!

One problem is there isn't enough middle ground and cooperation between the medical and midwifery models of care in this country. It was very hard to find support for a position of wanting all available testing (and I am well-informed as to false-positives, etc), while being afraid of the risks, while also wanting a completely intervention-free birth.

It seems to me that there is sometimes misinformation given out by natural-based practitioners also, to forward their own anti-medical agenda.

I hope I've been clear. I have to admit my emotions on this topic make my thoughts muddled. I am sorry to hear of the losses experienced.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
I get very, very angry when I hear people say the testing is "fear-based thinking," and so on, and that problems are rare, and so on, and they'd be ok if their baby passed away. I don't hear anyone here saying if their baby died from vaccine complications they'd be ok with it.

I understand what you are saying, however there are women who feel that testing is "fear-based thinking" I happen to be one of of them. That is then number 1 reason we have not done testing, with other risk factors in mind. I know my child can have my condition, I understand what that means and the last thing I want is some doctor puting fear in me. I already get it- I got it big time with my last pregnacy! They can do amnio with me and give me a 99% yes or no, but then the risk of that for me are too great. I guess it comes down to what would you do with the info. I know what I would do in my case, and I guess that there could be many many other things that could be wrong, but I try not to be so scared.

I am not saying that everyone feels the same way I do. I am glad there are test to protect mothers and babies and that we live in an era that we can find out information that could save lives, and I think that everyone who walks in the shoes of having their childs life saved by technology is grateful, and I also think that any parents who has a loss of a child for any reason, will always wonder- what if I did this what if I didnt do that, or could that test have helped, or why didnt anyone tell me I could do that?

Just like with vac'ings it is a very personal choice. I hear everyday that "I cant believe you vax her" or are you worried about polio or other stuff? I understand these fears, and I yes I worry but then again I have made a choice and I have my own reasons. If a parent has a loss of a child due to vax'ing do they question their choice? Sure. Whould they still do it with other kids, perhaps- or perhaps not. I dont think there is a parent who is OK with a death of a cild, it is always a question of "what if's" Death is never easy and I guess it is not ment to be. I would be heart broken if one of my kids died, and I do know the risk of the choices I take- as well as the risk to the choices I decided not to take.

Such a personal thing.









ETA: Just wanted to edit to add- that I do feel that testing is fear based thinking for me, but I do understand it is not for others. I hope it didnt sound like I feel that way as a blanket feeling. It is, like I said- personal to everyone.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

It is very hard. I would have loved to have a homebirth with my husband by my side. My whole pregnancy I kept telling people that God designed my body ot give birth and He is the perfect engineer. Nothing has been better designed than the female body. I had faith in my body to do what needed to be done. I had dreams about labor and pushing. Then at 26 weeks I was put under general anesthesia and my daughter was ripped from my womb to save my life. SHe survived for an hour. When I went into surgery, I didn't know if I would even have a uterus at the end of it all because they didn't know if they would be able to stop the bleeding due to my platelet count.

Because of how little she was and the fact that I was only 25 1/2 weeks along, they did a classical c-section and I will have to have a c-section for every birth from now on.

I have never and will never feel my water break, feel a contraction, feel my baby push through the birth canal. every pregnancy from here on out will be highly monitored with dr's visits at least twice a month, multiple ultrasounds and ultimately an early c-section at 38 weeks if I make it that far.

I not only lost my daughter, I lost faith in my body and I lost the dream of the birth I wanted. I also lost the sense of belonging to any natural family culture. I was studying to be a doula, how can I support somebody who is going through something I never did? It changed my life and the last hting I need to be told is how unnecessary intervention, c-sections, ob's and hospitals are. That is a complete invalidation of my experience.

I guess I wrote all that to write this, I hear you and I empathize.
Gossamer


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

Gossamer, I want you to know you`re not alone. You captured exactly what I`ve been trying to say. I also lost the ability to give birth without surgery and I lost a lot of faith in my body. I thought about this more today and I realized that if everything had gone well for me I would still be 100% behind no intervention. I can understand how people feel that way because I did. I had a completely unassisted pregnancy until i was 30 something weeks because I was so sure everything was perfect the way God designed it. I never had doppler so I never heard my second sons heartbeat. If he was here now I`d probably be telling everybody how awesome my waterbirth was and how everybody should do it.

Another thing that has been hard for me is that since my son lived for 7 weeks in the hospital (not on life support, but in a coma) I had to hear questions about why I chose homebirth and next time would I please go to a hospital. I was told on the night that my son was born that it was by far the worst shoulder dystocia they had ever seen & it would have had the same outcome no matter where I was. You would think that people would see the hell that we were in and keep their thoughts to themselves, but no, they felt compelled to comment on how unsafe hb is. When you represent all hb disasters to doctors, its a terrible, lonely feeling and all the midwives and doulas in the world can`t help at all. So, even though I still believe hb is very safe, I prefer to avoid discussing it altogether with anyone who has had nothing but great experiences.


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## mommyto2 (Nov 16, 2004)

I am so very sorry for all of your losses! I cannot imagine what you feel.

I cannot comment except that I choose not to intervene, but I have put a lot of thought into my decision. With dd, I had an ultrasound at 17 wks due to premature labor. Friends asked why I would do such a thing. I was made to feel like I had to defend this decision.

When I had a m/c at 13 weeks two years ago, I was asked why? What had I done wrong. Why hadn't I gone to the hospital. etc.

I do not think that intervention is bad. I just want people to be given options and not scared into it or forced. I would have an ultrasound or any other interention if my intuition told me to do so... With the m/c, I knew in my heart that that baby was not going to be here from day one. I do not know how... I just know that this baby is fine. If I am wrong, I would lose faith in my self & my body as well...

I am so truly sorry.

I absolutley would not be ok at all ever if I lost a child. I will pray for all of you to heal from your loss.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liseux*
Gossamer, I want you to know you`re not alone. You captured exactly what I`ve been trying to say. I also lost the ability to give birth without surgery and I lost a lot of faith in my body.

I totally agree. I had three first trimester losses before my dd was born, and only had her because they figured out that I have an autoimmune disorder that affects blood clotting. I had to give myself injections twice a day, have a cerclage put in due to previous cervical surgery for precancerous cells, and see a perinatologist every two weeks for an ultrasound to make sure she was growing properly (I was at high rish for IUGR). During her birth, I got to 8 cm and she still hadn't dropped *at all*, she was totally wedged in my pelvis. At that point, I happily opted for a csection because I knew she was still ok and I didn't want to risk anything else happening.

I was so thrilled that she was alive and healthy that the first time I had someone question all my interventions it felt like a slap in the face. I still remember it clearly, as a matter of fact. DD was 4 weeks old and I took her out to lunch to meet a friend of mine, who had invited another friend of hers who is a doula. As soon as I mentioned having to have a csection for shoulder dystocia, the doula rolled her eyes and said "I can't believe you fell for that. Why didn't you just push for a couple hours and see what happened?"







To this woman, it didn't matter that I was nursing and co-sleeping and otherwise APing, the fact that I didn't have an unmedicated homebirth totally invalidated everything else to her.

Hugs for all the other mamas who've suffered losses.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whateverdidiwants*
As soon as I mentioned having to have a csection for shoulder dystocia, the doula rolled her eyes and said "I can't believe you fell for that. Why didn't you just push for a couple hours and see what happened?"

Good lord. That would be totally rude and obnoxious even if you HAD gone into birth completely uninformed and trusting the medical routine. That doula needs to learn some freaking tact if she thinks she wants to help women have better births.


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Posted by Mommyto2:

"I do not know how... I just know that this baby is fine. If I am wrong, I would lose faith in my self & my body as well..."

That is exactly what happened to me. I was told (spiritually) throughout my pregnancy that my baby was fine (his spirit actually told me directly, as well as my gut feeling). That is the only way I could have planned a homebirth in spite of my history and my husband's reluctance. In spite of two previous early losses (miscarriage at nine weeks and an ectopic pregnancy), I never worried for a moment because the assurance I experienced was so strong, there was no place for any doubts or concerns. I was so confident I even got rid of the pregnancy-loss books I had. So when he was stillborn, my faith in myself and in my body were shattered. It's been over two years and I can see how I am still punishing myself with self-defeating behaviors because of this. I understand now that when I was told spiritually that he was fine, he really was fine, in the spiritual sense, because his spirit is fine. But it is still so tough for me to reconcile, because I believed he would be born alive and healthy. I never questioned it for a second. If I could have been so wrong about something I knew so deeply, how can I ever trust myself again?

And yet, I would never trade the assurance that I felt. Because of it I was able to bond with my baby while he was alive and inside me. Otherwise, I would have worried away the pregnancy, which was the only time I had with him. Lots of conflicting emotions on this topic...


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

Mamas,
if you emailed me about the writing project, I emailed you just now. Katherine, I need your email addy.


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## gremlin44 (Feb 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gossamer*
I have never and will never feel my water break, feel a contraction, feel my baby push through the birth canal. every pregnancy from here on out will be highly monitored with dr's visits at least twice a month, multiple ultrasounds and ultimately an early c-section at 38 weeks if I make it that far.

I not only lost my daughter, I lost faith in my body and I lost the dream of the birth I wanted. I also lost the sense of belonging to any natural family culture. I was studying to be a doula, how can I support somebody who is going through something I never did? It changed my life and the last hting I need to be told is how unnecessary intervention, c-sections, ob's and hospitals are. That is a complete invalidation of my experience.

*applauds*

That is exactly how I feel, Gossamer. A future pregnancy for me entails no contractions whatsover (the fundus of my uterus ruptured in my last pregnancy and my son died), lots of monitoring, many ultrasounds, amnio for lung maturity, and a c-section at 35 weeks (with both my sons I went into labor at 36 weeks).

Heck, I felt that loss so acutely have the C-section with my first son, and it took a long time for me to reconcile that, even though at that time it was thought I could have a VBAC. After Zach's death, I've had people belittle this loss because it's "not as important" as the loss of Zach. Well, of course not! But that doesn't make it any less valid.

Where do you go when you've spent years studying natural childbirth and most of your online friends and real life friends are in the natural childbirth community? I too had dreams of being a doula, particularly to Deaf clients (I'm a sign language interpreter). I thought that once I had a successful VBAC that I would be acceptable as a doula. Now I feel like no one would choose me--who wants a woman with 3 sections and one stillborn baby as a doula for their waterbirth?

*hugs* Our dreams are valid as is our pain at losing them. We can accept the reality of our future birth scenarios and what they require, but that doesn't mean we have to like them or pretend that they are ideal for us or are emotionally satisifying.


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Wow, Gremlin, that's me, too--3 sections, including a stillbirth. I had forgotten that for several years I planned on teaching natural childbirth. I had an identity that was tied up with natural birth. I've had to let go of that(especially now that I filed a complaint against my midwife!). It's a very real loss, isn't it?


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

I am so encouraged to see this being discussed.

I had a loss after a homebirth. My fourth child was a perfect home waterbirth. Every home waterbirther's dream easy birth basically.

My fifth child flipped to footling breech between my last prenatal exam (I felt his head down there, it wasn't just the midwife saying so, and I felt him flip too, that night or early next morning, I just didn't realize what he was doing when he was SO active at the time) and the time my water broke.

We tried to get him out at home but his arms were over his head and he was stuck. I was taken by ambulance to the ER where they got him out but he was dead. They got his heart beating, but his brain was too damaged to breathe on his own. I know for a fact that this has happened in hospitals before. Simply being in the hospital would not have prevented it. But even though the nurses were kind, the doctor was gentle, etc. I could see it in their eyes, and the doctor "encouraged" me to "get prenatal care" if I was to get pregnant again, and said "We don't do anything our patients don't want us to" (Yeah and I'm sure 90% of your patients WANT the epidural at the first possible second too lady! Don't try to BS me.)

I could go on and on all day pondering "what if's" and could anyone have done anything different, but in the end only what actually happened matters. My son died.

It's hard to talk to homebirth moms, because from now on I will go to a hospital to give birth should we ever have another. Not because I think homebirth is to blame, but because I feel it would be too stressful for me emotionally, not to mention my DH who was never as "die-hard" about homebirth as I was anyway. I always said I took full responsibility and if something happened, so be it. I still feel that way, but so help me if anyone ever says to me "If my baby dies, I'm ready for that." I will look them dead in the eye and say "You really think so? Really truly?! Trust me, you're not. Nobody EVER is. And I hope to GOD you never ever find that out."

Thankfully I do have the option of vaginal birth open to me, and there IS a hospital that allows waterbirth with some highly recommended (by natural birth minded women) nurse-midwives. I would never presume to second guess anyone's birth choices without all the facts. Everyone who makes an informed choice does so because it's what they believe to be best for them. And as much as I believe in homebirth, that will be one topic which forever carries a twinge of sadness and heartache for me. And I HATE that it has to be that way.

Now I'm rambling. It's exactly one month today. Thanks for "listening."


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I just wanted to post to come back and read this thread. It seems like there is lots to be learned here. Thank you, mamas.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

On the one hand I feel as if I have no right to say anything in this forum as I have never lost a child and can't even begin to imagine what you strong mamas are going through. However, this thread does ring true with me because I very narrowly avoided disaster by not listening to natural birth advocates and by having a fantastic midwife who knew her stuff. I credit her with my son being born safely.

I got the prenatal testing done, only because if there were a problem I would be prepared for it. I'm an introverted person and don't like surprises.

I went to a birthing center, but had a birth plan that also included my preferences for a c-section just in case even though I was planning on giving birth drug and intervention-free.

My doula (who was wonderful, don't let me discredit her in any way) I know was a little put-off by my decisions to be prepared but she didn't come out and say it. She often stressed the power of a woman's body and to trust in the innate ability to birth, etc. I took a very firm stance against pain medications, induction, electronic monitoring, etc.

Long story short, I started out in a birthing center and ended up in the hospital with a c-section. My son had wrapped himself up in his umbilical cord and it was around his neck three times. It was so tight that my midwife had to unwind him before she could even get him out of my uterus.

It was a completely unforseeable fluke, the only indications were that he never dropped and once we were at the hospital his heart rate decreased sharply with each contraction. My midwife made the call to go to the hospital even though she knew how much I wanted a natural birth, and everything she counseled me on the whole way was right on target. If it weren't for her I could have continued laboring until something terrible happened to my son, because she, the surgeon, and another attending midwife agreed that I would never have been able to safely birth Michael vaginally.

With this knowledge that a textbook-perfect pregnancy, one which I was joyously happy throughout, could end up in total chaos drove a point home to me. As much as I would love to have a homebirth, I know that I will never do it because I am too afraid of something happening that I could have taken steps to prevent. No matter how many uplifting stories I hear or statistics I digest I can't banish the cold feeling of dread I had in the hospital when my son started going into distress and I knew he was in danger but didn't know why. I honestly don't know what I would have done had I staunchly decided to labor at home and my son had died, because in the end the ideal of a non-intervention birth really doesn't stand up to having a safe, healthy child.

My husband and I are both afraid of having another child even though we want one badly...in the back of our minds we will always remember what happened to our first son and worry that fate will throw us another twist.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here. I read this forum with interest because my husband has a younger brother who died from misdiagnosed viral pneumonia at 18 months old and my MIL still bears the scars nearly 30 years later. I read to try and understand her better.

- Jen


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

Kittykat: I'm so sorry for your loss.

Liseux:

Quote:

So, even though I still believe hb is very safe, I prefer to avoid discussing it altogether with anyone who has had nothing but great experiences.
Doesn't this suck! I'm curious, would you consider another homebirth in the future?

To those would be doula's: I don't think there is any reason that women who haven't birthed naturally can't be doulas. In fact, i think your losses might make you better doulas. I sometimes think about all the women in the history of the world who have given birth, and who have lost babies. There is a special type of women's wisdom that is bestowed on those who have experienced not only birth but death first hand. In the larger, historical perspective, we who have lost are not a small minority but sadly may even be a large majority.
I think that if in your heart, you want to help other women birth, then there is no reason not to be doulas or childbirth educators or whatever. I'm sure there have been great midwives and doulas who have never even been pregnant. Heck there have even been men who were great birth supporters.

Quote:

I could go on and on all day pondering "what if's" and could anyone have done anything different, but in the end only what actually happened matters. My son died.
So True.
There are always "what ifs" even in a hospital but i think that in a culture that so blindly trusts doctors, homebirthers are in a very harsh environment. It's so hard to be the horror story, especially when you represent an alternative view. After my daughter died at home, i felt like i had tainted everyone i knew's opinion of homebirth - exactly the opposite of my intentions. I was so confident and self-righteous about the safety and beauty of birth, so for me to fail was that much harder. I am currently trying to decide whether or not to have another homebirth and one of my biggest fears is that i couldn't face people if i lost another baby at home. I don't know if i could forgive myself and i know a lot of my family would blame me completely. I want to have faith in the birth process but at the same time, i feel like i need to acknowledge the possiblity of lightning striking twice.

Sorry for such a long post.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

O'mama. I am so sorry about your little boy.

This quote had me thinking:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KittyKat*
It's hard to talk to homebirth moms, because from now on I will go to a hospital to give birth should we ever have another. Not because I think homebirth is to blame, but because I feel it would be too stressful for me emotionally, not to mention my DH who was never as "die-hard" about homebirth as I was anyway.

This is the same way I feel except it is the other way around. I just cant even bring myself to be in a hospital. I did it before and the stress for me is very emotional too, and it is beyond what I can deal with in birth. I however have a DH who doesn't even want MW's at our house







I am having my MWs but he is pretty anti-anything, so that has been hard. Having a failed UC last time with DD has won me the right to stand my ground and say the MWs MUST be there.

I think you are right that everyone does what is right for them- in the situation they are in. I perhaps would feel different if I was in your shoes and some of the other mamas shoes. I don't think it is up for judging a well educated mother on why and what she does with her pregnancy or her birth. We all have fears, and sometimes live nightmares, I wish it wouldn't happen, I wish no mother ever felt the hurt of a lost child, but I am thankful for the education that they do provide in their healing. It is so important to help people who have never had that loss understand (or at least sympathize). We have the freedom of choice and that is such a wonderful thing.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

This is such an interesting thread. When I pregnant with Amanda I didn't even know you COULD homebirth. My pregnancy was very hands off and I refused most interventions. At one time I thought, "If I had just looked at everything and let them run more tests...." Truth be told. I have Lupus and they didn't know. There was no real way to know at that time.

With my son's pregnancy I tried to find a midwife, but with my history, nobody would touch me. My pregnancies and births were VERY medical and it made me sad. When I lost Amanda I lost my innocence. I will likely never know what it's like to go into labor normally and naturally or to give birth without machines all around me. It was another grieving process that I had to go through.

However, I do believe in the power of the female body. It's ability to conceive, birth and nourish a baby. I think there is a time and place for medical interventions, but ultimately, I believe in the human body.

Nursing my babies was a huge healing to me. I felt so powerful pulling my baby to breast and each month as they gained weight solely on my milk - I can't tell you how amazing that felt.

I consider myself a very natural parent. However, I remember reading Mothering while pregnant with my living children and feeling a bit left out. I don't think this was the fault of Mothering - this was because I longed for a natural pregnancy and birth.

What we have to keep in mind as we venture out on the boards is that we make our own choices based on our knowledge. As mothers we make choices that best suite our bodies, our children and our families. As mothers we need to be respectful of others choices.

Pamamidwife, I really appreciate your presence here. I think it's very important for women to have INFORMED CONSENT and that seems to be what your advocating here.

Gossamer, I completely understand what you're saying









Riotkrrn, keep talking about your feelings. You have so much to work thought right now. In future pregnancies, you'll make the decisions that feel right for you - and they'll be the right ones


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

The NFL/AP movement appeals to me so much and I strive to live up to so many parts of it because it seems like common sense to me. 2 things that bother me though are how rigid and judgemental some of our fellow NFL`ers can be. I can honestly say that was me too. Now its not, my deceased son has taught me so more about tolerance and respect than anyone. I live in the DC area so most people are kind of Type A and even AP/NFL is done with so much effort & $$$$. Just this week at my son`s Waldorf kindergarten I overheard a mom complaining to another mom that a third mom had actually brought a plastic toy from home for her year old son to play with while waiting for pick up. Ridiculous! I remember when I used to sweat all that small stuff too.

When Alistair was in the NICU it was the worst time in my life, I can`t even describe how awful it was to be the only one hoping for a miraculous recovery and having the doctors remind me hourly that there was no hope. I was also dealing with the huge reality of the imminent death of my son and the complicated feelings of not understanding why everything I believed had been so wrong. I watched other families deal with preemies and other sick babies and saw that their love for their children was so huge even if they didn`t breastfeed or visit as often as we did. I`ve been forced into a bigger picture than my quiet world of like minded friends & even though sometimes I feel like the scary tragic mom (to the innocent ones) I am changed for the better in a lot of ways.

With the same attitude I can`t judge any bereaved moms decisions at all. If she wants CVS, amnio or at home doppler, go for it, whatever makes you feel more comfortable. My subsequent pregnancy was so stressful even though I had no chance of having s.dystocia again. I knew all of the things that can go wrong and I knew I wasn`t exempt from tragedy.

My dh and I went to MISS support groups and it was amazing to see how many of the moms had converted to attachment parenting from mainstream after their losses. They felt the instincts were always there to respond quickly to their children but felt freer to be that way after the loss. When thinking about my inability to give birth normally, I agree with Ms. Mom, I focus on the things I can do well, like breastfeed and heal as well as I can naturally.

Berkeleyp, to answer your question, I posted about this on your thread in the hb forum, and I said I might consider hb again if I hadn`t become high risk. I actually had a c/s with my 3rd, partly b/c I am now rh sensitized (rhogam failure), and no doctor or mw would attempt a vaginal delivery with me. I also visited a traumatic birth therapist for a year after Alistair died and even though she was a hber and a childbirth educator she advised a c/s. I also had dreams of a peaceful c/s while I was pregnant. I hate that I feel like I somehow have to justify it, I really don`t, it was necessary to get my 3rd son out quickly due to anemia in the end anyway. (he`s fine now) . I was able to have an extremely peaceful and beautful c/s & healed very well. I would do it again in a heartbeat, yet I would never advise someone to go for a c/s of just because. But then again, if she felt some instinct to do that, go for it!

KittyKat, I am so sorry about your little son. I feel for you so much, its so new for you right now. I also had to ride to the hospital with my son stuck. My heart goes out to you.
I agree with everything you said, especially about having to go to the hospital next time. For me it was also a question of, "and now for something completely different!" It wasnt easy surrendering to the medical model, but I was treated with lots of kindness and respect.


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

Liseux:
"For me it was also a question of, "and now for something completely different!"

Thanks for your kind words. There is nothing I have been thru that is worse than seeing half of my baby and seeing him turn blue...and feeling so helpless! But enough about that.

About future births, it's not exactly something completely different in my case. I had 3 hospital births before my homebirth. I have experienced pitocin induction (totally unnecessary) the epidural that the unnatturally strong pitocin contractions caused me to need, a condescending lying SOB of a doctor, and the difficult start to BF and difficult recovery that resulted. I have also had 2 relatively decent births, but still I was not treated *well,* just slightly better than a slab of meat. I can never walk into a hospital to give birth without being somewhat on my guard. I'll probably seek out a doula for my next birth, just so I feel the freedom to relax and go to my birthing space and not be worried that some idiot nurse will slip me demerol in my IV (because that has happened to me before).

I am hopeful that I will be treated with kindness and respect, that I can find a caregiver outthere who truly *cares.* But having opted OUT of the medical model because of firsthand negative experiences, it's doubly hard having to go back in.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

apologies for









Quote:

I intend with every pregancy I happen to have that I have a Level II Ultrasound. Why? because I nearly lost my daughter due to umbilical cord issues. A month later my neice died from Umbilical cord issues.
I was wondering if you could PM me about this. My daughter was born with a true knot in her cord and a 3-fold nuchal cord. She is fine and showed no distress in labor that we know of (but I did not have much monitoring). I am very concerned about this happening again--can u/s really diagnose it reliably?


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

Kitty Kat, I know that same helpless feeling, I know all of us who have lost babies know that feeling, but I had a very similar experience and it is so unbelievably hard!

My dad helped me a lot in the beginning. He told me to tell my story to anybody who would listen, he was a Vietnam vet, a company commander who had been injured and lost many friends. My parents also lost my younger sister to SIDS so they know about this kind of pain. My dad stayed in the Army after Vietnam and so constantly talked about his experiences and healed well. He told me as soon as my son was born that our experience was horrific like combat and so I should freely talk about it. My parents were so supportive of homebirth, they are devout Catholics and believed that God would take care of everything. My dad even watched a waterbirth video. To their credit they never made me feel bad afterwards, but other family did, like my MIL and it was awful.

I`m trying to stay on topic here, but as a person who believed God designed nature so well it was so hard to have any confidence in anything at all after my son died. Now, one of the few things that really helps me is being outside in nature. Its so obvious how imperfect it is and I find that oddly comforting. I think its arrogant to think because we are humans that birth will always go well for us, just believe enough and it will happen. I even had a midwife tell me recently ( when I told her for the 1st time about my loss) that she "always" gets shoulder dystocias out. I had the hardest time reconciling that, it was like if I picked her, my son would be alive. Finally, I realized its like the tsunami, somebody might say "Oh, I`ve seen a really big wave", but they haven`t seen the tsunami, they have no idea of the force of nature as big as the tsunami. This mw has no idea if she could have gotten my son out.

Kitty Kat, I also had some really bad hospital experiences. I had surgery done without anesthetic when I was a child (military hospital) so one reason I started with hb was to keep it as undramatic and peaceful for the baby as possible. The part that was so different for me was the constant monitoring and scheduling a c/s. That was pretty weird. I know it can be hard to go back to the medical model and it takes a certain constant vigilance which can suck, but there are medical people who really care and I think a doula will be an excellent idea too.


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

Thanks very much liseux. I had a great weekend. There was a visiting speaker at church, and during the Sunday School time, he shared some of his background. One of the things he mentioned was that his first child died right after birth, and was buried in Spain where they were living at the time. My heart jumped, and I knew I HAD to talk to his wife between services. She hugged me and encouraged me, and it was SO sweet to talk with her, 16 years or so later, after having 7 more children, and able to look back with a different perspective. It was harder for her I think, since she had no children at all. It is stupid when people say 'At least you have x-# other kids' but in a sense it gives you someone more to hold on to and love, and devote that nurturing impulse to.

Then my dear friend who had her baby right before Christmas and was due the same time I was asked me if I wanted to hold her little girl. I did. I held her, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't cry on her a bit. My friend cried too. She told me she had been kind of unsure, wanting me to get to hold her baby if I wanted, but afraid to hurt me if she offered. I really enjoyed holding her.

Anyhow, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences! It's been really helpful to me.

Kathryn


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

I have never lost a child, and admitidly I am one of those who claim that I would be ok with it, or as ok with it as any mom can be. You all are truley corageous women to be so strong after a loss.

Sorry if this gets choppy, I can never put all of this in the right order. My dd was born 2 years ago by c-section. I had EVERY intervention that I had hoped to avoid. I was totally ignorant to the choices available in birth, I followed blindly to what ever my Dr said, after all he was a doctor and he knew. DD was born with an infection that was never diagnosed and spent the first week of her life in the NICU with nurses that wouldnt even hold her. For the next year of her life she battled health problem after problem. After she turned one I really started to educate myself on birth. I became more and more angry with her birth and the results. I found that chances are she would have been fine had I had her vaginally, that all the alarming things that were happening were totally normal, ect.
So here I am expecting DS in 7 weeks and I am on the otherside. I have found a midwife, plan a homebirth, and have denied most testing. But in the back of my mind I wonder if I am doing a lot of it out of anger because of my first birth. I will never know if dd would have been sick had they left me alone, I will never know if she would have had a year of health problems, I will never know if my choices durning pregnancy affected her that negativly. I want more than anything to have a healthy child, but is the best way to acheive that. I feel so conflicted as to what to choose. I am moving in 2 weeks and will be changing my health care provider and in the back of my mind I keep wondering if I should choose a dr because even though I would automatically be a c-section at least I could be right there if anything was wrong. But I would love to give birth naturally too.

I know this isnt exactly what this post was about but I wanted to say that I had a totally mainstream birth before and I am plauged with doubts, anger and fear about this pregnancy. I have hopped the fence to the other "extreame" and yet I still dont know what is the right choice.

Hugs mamas....do what you feel is best for you and your families. (lol too bad for me that seems to be easier said than done.)


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Caitlinsmom--

I think the key is not to adopt any extreme, but to try to find balance and pay close attention to what your instincts are telling you. I know, like you said, it's easier said than done. But we're all so different. Subscribing to any particular ideology will never work because there is no one approach or philosophy that can answer every question for every person's individual path. That's why there are so many different perspectives available. It is our responsibility to pick and choose for ourselves what is of benefit to us. If I am ever pregnant again, it will be interesting to see how I implement this view, because I would be an automatic c-section within the medical model, and I suspect any local midwives would be reluctant to take me because I filed a complaint against my midwife with the medical board. So there would seem to be some automatic polarization I would be faced with. These are tough, tough issues that I continue to face in other areas of my life (parenting/discipline, vaccinating, nutrition, medical care for my kids, etc.)

KittyKat--

So glad to hear of your healing experiences yesterday. Yes, I agree that having other children to hold is a blessing (my fourth baby was stillborn two years ago). But, yes, it is stupid when other people say it to me, because it doesn't come across as comforting, it just seems like they're trying to avoid my pain. The only comforting thing other people can say is to tell me how sorry they are. I was talking to a woman on Saturday who started in with, "At least..." I didn't let her finish. I cut her off and said, "No, there is no 'at least'." It felt so good to do what I was too distraught to do early on--stop another person from inflicting more pain on me.

I am so sorry about your baby. I appreciate your posting here. You have expressed so eloquently many things that I have felt, too. Sending you love and support as you experience this pain...

Katherine


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:

Now, one of the few things that really helps me is being outside in nature. Its so obvious how imperfect it is and I find that oddly comforting. I think its arrogant to think because we are humans that birth will always go well for us, just believe enough and it will happen.
About a week ago a similar thought really struck me and is shaking up my world view. The idea that Nature is both perfect and cruel is hard for me to come to terms with. It makes my faith in birth a little wobbly. I was arguing with dh the other day about homebirth and he said - "yes, women were made to give birth but they were also meant to die in birth and lose their babies." This is sadly very true. We were made to suffer loss. His point was that hospitals reduce the risk of nature running its crueler course. I'm not sure how this fits into this conversation but it seems somewhat relevant.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I would argue hospitals do not reduce the risk of things going wrong, they increase it, but I understand the point being made and the perception that hospitals prevent mishap.

I for one believe my homebirth midwife provided me with the best _medical_ care I have ever received. I didn't use a homebirth midwife to avoid medical care; it's real medicine, real care. She is more knowledgeable, proactive and involved to the point of intuition. With anyone else I would have had an induction, or with the labor and delivery I had, a cesarean. Both induction and csection carry far greater risk of illness, injury and death than the drug free vaginal delivery I had at home.

But that isn't right for everyone, and I posted earlier in this thread about how difficult it can be to get what you need from both models of care while leaving what you don't want. It is also difficult to fend off the well-meaning zealots from both sides.


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:

I didn't use a homebirth midwife to avoid medical care; it's real medicine, real care. She is more knowledgeable, proactive and involved to the point of intuition.
I agree, midwifery is certainly not a-medical. I believe that my midwives do provide excellent care. My concern is not that home is unsafe but rather that there are a few, very rare cases where emergency care is required that midwives cannot provide. I still don't know what to do. I think that if homebirth was more accepted it would be an easier decision to make. A lot of my ambivalence about another homebirth is the idea of facing the skeptics if something went wrong again. If more people understood the safety of homebirth and it was not uncommon, i think it would be a lot different.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

well with tears streaming down my face... i couldn't have said it better myself. i am suprised i am not serving a prison sentence, becasue i swore i was going to kill the next person that told me "it was meant to be" or that "this is gods way"
the last time i checked god wasn't vengeful. maybe that changed..saved my favorite for last." be glad you have the one you have.."







:
i am all for medical intervention and testing... whohoooboy. after 6 years, 3 losses and 2 chemical pregnancies, i need every last little bit of medical technology available to keep me pregnant.
your stories are so moving. and i just couldn't have said it better myself. i am so glad i am not alone, but join the ranks of women who have been through such turmoil....

btw i deliver with midwives, but all my prenatal care is done with a maternal-fetal specialist with my midwife present. i had 2 fabulous hospital births, my first of which i pushed for over 5 hours... and they still let me keep at it, rather then to c/s. while i wouldn't suggest anyone push that long, it was just the mentality of the hospital, as long as i am okay, baby is okay, i could do as i pleased. 2nd birth was the same way( but only 3 pushes) in a different hospital, different state. i think a hospital setting is only wha tyou allow it to be. and to be militanly against it, is silly, sure i could have done all that at home, but my dh was more comfortable in the hossy, so we pretended that was our home, and treated it as such. both times i left within 18 hours of delivery. i had no need or reason to stay 48 hours, so i always opted for early discharge.
sorry this is choppy, i am thinking about a million miles a minute and type as it comes...


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:

btw i deliver with midwives, but all my prenatal care is done with a maternal-fetal specialist with my midwife present
I love this idea. I am always put in the "high risk" area and I have stayed very far away from medical specialist this pregnancy because of it- but I love your idea of having your MW go with you to see these specialist and have the best of both worlds.


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## pfamilygal (Feb 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rileysmommy*
well with tears streaming down my face... i couldn't have said it better myself. i am suprised i am not serving a prison sentence, becasue i swore i was going to kill the next person that told me "it was meant to be" or that "this is gods way"
the last time i checked god wasn't vengeful. maybe that changed..saved my favorite for last." be glad you have the one you have.." ...

We had an early m/c with our first (5 wks) and then got pg the next month. With our third pregnancy we had been on Clomid and got pg after 6 mo and 1 more trip to the OR. My son was about 18 months and was sitting on dh's lap as we popped the tape into the VCR in the sono room at 10 wks. The tech looked at the screen and said, "oh, I don't think this one's a keeper. No heartbeat and we're measuring 5 wks" I was in shock. As we were herded into the doc's office he said, "well, at least we know you can carry babies, you already have one." Who freaking cares??!! I wanted this one! I was just blown away....

And then my MIL and some NFL friends gave me grief about deciding to have a D&C a week later. I should "just let nature take its course." The baby had been dead for over a month and nothing had happened. I wanted it to be over with so I could truly grieve. As long as I carried Ari I was still hoping for a miracle, but after the D&C I could start dealing with reality, as stark as it was.

I wanted to tell all of you that I am soooo sorry for your losses. All of ours have been first trimester losses and I can't imagine carrying all the way through and then coming home with empty arms.

I've had 2 vag deliveries and then a c/s for transverse lie (my water broke before she could be turned). In our area no one VBACs. When I discussed with a doula friend how diappointed I was that I'll have to have another c/s if we have another child she suggested an HBAC. I have high blood pressure and all of my children have been preemies. My youngest was 4 lb 15 oz at birth and spent 4 days in the NICU. When I gave these things as reasons why I wouldn't HBAC she said, "oh, well then you must just like c/s's, if you really wanted a vag delivery you could have it home." To me the tradeoff is too risky. She implied that if I had enough willpower or courage I would HBAC, but since I'm weak we'll head to the hospital. Yeah, easy for her to say. I don't think anyone should be judging. Let's let everyone make their own informed choices. If you love your kids and are trying to do the best thing for them and your family, then that's all that matters.

Hugs to all who grieve. When I get sad I meditate on Psalm 81 "Better is one day in Your courts than a thousand elsewhere." I try to imagine my babies playing in Heaven, our real home, and it makes me feel better.


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