# unpraised dd seeking praise?



## philosoikou (Nov 18, 2009)

We are not a "good job!" sort of family. I was raised with excessive praise, and so Unconditional Parenting resonated with me right out of the gate.

We are not afraid of showing pleasure, though. We tell our kids plenty often when something they've done has helped us out ("When you help me chop the vegetables, making dinner goes faster"), or made someone happy ("Oh, look at John's face! He's delighted that you gave him a cookie"). We share in our children's joy when they are proud of an accomplishment ("You've practiced all summer on the monkey bars, and now you can get the whole way across without help!"). We acknowledge effort ("You tried really hard to open that lock by yourself").

Just so you don't think it's a praise desert around here.









So anyway, here's the situation: for the past few months, my older dd, age 4.5, has been soliciting praise.
"Didn't I do a good job?"
"Isn't it great how I cleaned up my whole room?"
"Am I so clever?"

I'm really not sure where this is coming from. She did go to a nursery program a couple mornings a week last year, and she does have a regular babysitter. She could certainly have picked up this kind of language/idea there. She watches no television, has never been to day care. There are my parents (the epitomes of excessive praise), but they live very far away and rarely visit.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter where it's coming from. What's got me unsure is how to handle it.

I've tried a number of things, trying to feel it out.
"Yes, love, you are so totally clever." (validation/agreement)
"Yes, it's fabulous that you helped your sister with her shoes. That makes easier for us to get to our appointment on time."
"Are YOU pleased with your tidy room? Does it make the space feel better to you?"

A huge part of the point, for us, of not "praising" in a conventional way is to keep the motivation coming from within, and not raise our daughters to be always looking to someone else for validation. We've always emphasized the *effects* of actions (when you tried hard, you figured it out; when you did xyz task, it helped me in a specific way; when you achieved xyz, you felt proud and happy; when you crashed into your sister, she got sad; when you left the books on the floor, the pages got bent).

And yet here she is, asking specifically for the kind of conventional "good job!" praise that has always felt so empty to me.









And my attempts to redirect her towards the "effects" kind of thinking are not satisfying her. She presses me: "But don't YOU think it's great that I tidied my room?"

_Well, yeah, honey. But I don't want you to do it for me!_

I could use some help thinking through this, and brainstorming ways of talking to my dd. Has anyone BTDT?

Why is she looking for this? I don't believe that children *need* this kind of validation, so what is the underlying need she is trying to meet by seeking it?
Has she gotten the idea from somewhere/someone else that she *ought* to be hearing this sort of thing from Mama and Papa?

Should I just swallow my principles and lavish her with the kind of praise she is asking for, when she asks for it, just to "fill her cup"? My fear is that it will snowball. I, of all people, know what it feels like to be a praise junkie. Would an attempt on my part to simply validate and use the language she's asking for ("Yeah, baby, you DID do great") only lead her to want more and more of that?

Thanks, wise mamas.


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## Bertana (Apr 15, 2005)

I'm in a similar boat, my 5 yr old DD has started saying stuff like "I don't want to eat/do that but I will *as a good girl should* because you asked me. "









She's now going to our local kidergarten, so I'm wondering if she picked that up there, since we do not talk that way at home.

I'm thinking this must be somehow related to 'rewards' as in, they're looking for a verbal 'reward' from us.

To start, I'm going to try using your line of questioning, and if she keeps asking for my opinion, I'll ask her back, why does it matter what I think? (or something like that)


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Could you skirt the issue with things like, "you sure are a great kid!"<hug> or "I sure do love you"<kiss> "look at you taking initiative, that is SO great and helpful!" maybe I am missing the point and you already are saying things like this, but in my mind if she is asking for this kind of praise then why not give it to her, it's meeting a need, right?

What about a simple, "high-five, my little awesome sweetie!" <insert high five with gusto here!>


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## stiss (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Could you skirt the issue with things like, "you sure are a great kid!"<hug> or "I sure do love you"<kiss> "look at you taking initiative, that is SO great and helpful!" maybe I am missing the point and you already are saying things like this, but in my mind if she is asking for this kind of praise then why not give it to her, it's meeting a need, right?

What about a simple, "high-five, my little awesome sweetie!" <insert high five with gusto here!>

I like this advice. I really like reading about directing praise to a task, and it's something I want to work on a bit more at home (I had the opposite problem growing up - not enough praise...so I think I over-compensate) but I say from my own experiences that it feels good to know your parents are just proud of YOU, and not necessarily just the things you do. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I wish you luck!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I think other people's opinions do motivate us especially people we care about. I know I appreciate my DH making a remark about the quality of something I've done when it's taken extra effort. I think kids naturally want genuine appreciation for things they do. They also like to see their efforts noticed and validated.

There have been posts here on this site by people who have bad feelings about never being praised as children. I think sincere non excessive praise is a good part of any relationship.

The "as a good girl should" stuff is probably just your DD developing her self image and deciding how she wants the world to see her, Bertana. That self image will change, maybe often.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Developmentally, 4-5 year olds are learning the power of words. She's looking for certain words. I would give those to her.

Another way of thinking about it: If 98% of your positive responses to her are the kind you describe, why would hearing "good job" occasionally hurt? What's wrong with: "Did I do a good job?" "I think so. It looks really tidy. What do you think?"

I understand the UP philosophy, and I try to avoid fatuous "good job". But to persist in not saying it when your child is directly asking for it seems to be carrying the philosophy too far. My kids both went through a period like this, and they both came out unscathed at the other end.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

My 3 year old DD does this sometimes also. She'll say something like, "Look Momma, I cleaned up the entire room for you! Did I do a good job?" because she knows it makes me frustrated when the house is a disaster. I think she just wants to know that we noticed what she did, and that it's appreciated.

We don't give typical praise either, I read that book also, but I don't mind letting her know that she cleaned up well and I'm thankful. I don't think it's the same thing as obsessively saying something like, "Good coloring! Good walking! Good sitting still!"


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## sarahsmiles (Jan 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44* 
I don't think it's the same thing as obsessively saying something like, "Good coloring! Good walking! Good sitting still!"

Maybe it's just where we are right now, but this cracked me up!

The other day at the library I heard (from other parents, of course) not only "Good sharing" and "Good building" (with the Legos) but "Good job holding that book."

Really made me wonder, that one!

DD's preschool, which is awesome in many ways, is lead by a very fun, very enthusiastic teacher who "good-jobs" the kids a bit more than I would like. We've discussed this and while she understands not wanting to turn kids into praise junkies, she just can't seem to help herself. I'm also concerned about the "Good Job, Kid X" that gets inserted into the cleanup song.

But at the same time, I can tell DD enjoys getting her name called out and the other day, she told me *I* did a good job on something, so I'm trying to find a middle ground.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I think your dd is telling you pretty clearly that this is the kind of praise she would like to hear. At least sometimes. Don't we all?

Sure, I hear you on the crazed "good job" culture. And you've been really conscientous about avoiding it and pretty creative on the alternatives.

Your dd wants to hear that she's pleased you. She want to hear it directly. Obviously this would not be "empty" praise to her since it's gotten to the point where she's being really explicit about wanting it. I don't think giving her what she wants is going to turn her into a "praise junkie."

I think that sometimes the circumlocutions we can go through in order to avoid "good job" or something similar strike kids as exactly that: circumlocutions.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

We don't go overbooard...but honestly I think praise is a good thing! I know I thrive on praise...really most of us do. I appreciate when someone acknowledges a job well done.
I certainly don't do the whole "good chewing!" or "congratulations" on a belch such as his bubby does but When he has helped me out by tidying up his toys I will thank him and if I feel he did a grand job I will say so.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

It's called unconditional parenting..meaning you don't praise as a form of manipulation to get a child to do something...there are no conditions...that doesn't mean never praise. Kids LIKE to know their parents and others like what they did sometimes. As long as they don't NEED their parents it.

It's all about balance. If you overpraise you will get a praise junky..if you underpraise you will get a kid who needs praise...because we all do, it's social validation, it helps set our social compass and we are a social animal. I believe a child will reach a degree of homeostasis socially by being validated by those around him. It will balance out.

She's asking for something that has become a need for her, maybe she hears other kids being "praised" a lot and she's thinking "why don't they ever say that to me?" Perhaps it's just a phase. I'd be inclined to give it to her whatever the reason so that she can find her own balance.

I would go one step further and give her real praise even when she doesn't ask for it. It's not about the praise it's about not being praised for every little thing.

Allgirls


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## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

it sounds like she's seeking praise, and if that's what she needs, then she should get it. But then again, I'm a fan of praise.

I praise Cora every day, whether she's done something or not. I tell her she's the bestest kid in the whole wide world. I tell her I'm the luckiest mom ever to have gotten a kid so great (she really is). And I tell her how proud I am of her for X, Y, and Z, and how happy I am that X, Y, and Z makes her happy and feel accomplished. Of course, I also tell her (kindly) that the story she wrote needs a lot of work.

And you know what? She thrives on the approval. She has a TON of internal motivation for most things she does. Sure, she never cleans her room, but oh well. She spends hours in the kitchen making applesauce, regardless of the fact that I won't touch it (tart and sweet right now make me want to gag), experimenting with recipes, and I know that has nothing to do with my approval. She does the same thing with casseroles. And she's happy, despite all my praise, go figure!

My parents were totally praise-happy. They were also honest with me when I wasn't doing a great job, but they were very generous with the praise of the things they liked or that they observed making me happy. And it gave me a great sense of security. My dad still calls me his "number one kid", which makes me swell with pride.

Before she died, my mom always told me how proud she was of the mother I became. And that really gets me through some of the roughest parenting times. Because, let's face it, sometimes there is NO reward in parenting situations, no matter how well you do it. But my mother, a frickin' saint, was proud of the mother that I am, so I can keep doing it, and doing it well, yk?

I think it's every kid's right to think their parents think they hung the moon.


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CorasMama* 
it sounds like she's seeking praise, and if that's what she needs, then she should get it. But then again, I'm a fan of praise.

I praise Cora every day, whether she's done something or not. I tell her she's the bestest kid in the whole wide world. I tell her I'm the luckiest mom ever to have gotten a kid so great (she really is). And I tell her how proud I am of her for X, Y, and Z, and how happy I am that X, Y, and Z makes her happy and feel accomplished. Of course, I also tell her (kindly) that the story she wrote needs a lot of work.

And you know what? She thrives on the approval. She has a TON of internal motivation for most things she does. Sure, she never cleans her room, but oh well. She spends hours in the kitchen making applesauce, regardless of the fact that I won't touch it (tart and sweet right now make me want to gag), experimenting with recipes, and I know that has nothing to do with my approval. She does the same thing with casseroles. And she's happy, despite all my praise, go figure!

My parents were totally praise-happy. They were also honest with me when I wasn't doing a great job, but they were very generous with the praise of the things they liked or that they observed making me happy. And it gave me a great sense of security. My dad still calls me his "number one kid", which makes me swell with pride.

Before she died, my mom always told me how proud she was of the mother I became. And that really gets me through some of the roughest parenting times. Because, let's face it, sometimes there is NO reward in parenting situations, no matter how well you do it. But my mother, a frickin' saint, was proud of the mother that I am, so I can keep doing it, and doing it well, yk?

I think it's every kid's right to think their parents think they hung the moon.









I think this is wonderful.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

I agree completely. I've read Unconditional Parenting, and I do agree with a PP that it is the manipulation involved in praise that is hurtful, not all praise. I grew up knowing I meant the world to my parents in every way possible, that I was the smartest girl they've met and that I could do anything in the world I wanted. That strong sense of self took me far. And as my father passed away this year he continued to tell me that I was the perfect daughter, and he could never have dreamed of more. That I was an amazing mother in the 8 weeks of motherhood he lived for. He told me mom to write down word for word "You are an amazing woman. Love, Dad" and read it to me on my birthday months later. Praise even from heaven.

I don't think I was harmed in the slightest by their praise because it was genuine and heartfelt and not even remotely manipulative.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

I'll beg teh question of whether she is seeking "validation," but she is seeking what every young human being seeks -- feedback from the people who are most important to her about whether she is doing things the right way for her family/tribe/culture.

As someone else said above, humans are social animals. To get along in human society, to live in large groups the way we do, we *need* to know the effects of our actions on others. I really believe that at some deep level it is instinctive to seek praise, especially from "authority figures," because we use that praise to make sure that we are getting along and finding our place.

Think about how you'd feel if your husband said some of those things to you. You make a batch of cookies, and he says "Oh honey, look how much DD likes the cookie!" But what you want to know is whether *he* liked the cookie! You need to know that so that you can either keep making the cookies the same way, or change something that the cookies' intended audience didn't like!

Or you spend a long, hot, day painting the kitchen. When your DH comes home, would you rather hear "Wow, you worked hard. How do YOU think it turned out?" or "The kitchen is looking awesome! You must have been at this all afternoon!"

You don't have to go overboard with random "good jobs," all day. You don't have to start using praise to manipulate her into doing things. But I think her asking for it really is a sign that she needs more feedback from you. I don't think "Wow! You cleaned your room! It really looks great in here, and don't you like how it feels bigger now that the toys are off the floor?" is going to turn her into a praise junkie.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

While I 100% of your UP style of parenting, I also think it's important for kids to know that their parents are proud of them. I see nothing wrong with sitting them down once and a while to tell them just how proud you are of the person they're choosing to become.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Maybe she wants confirmation that she did it correctly? Especially for stuff she rare does entirely on her own, maybe she just wants to know that she didn't forget a step or something?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I agree completely with the OPs, that the manipulative intent behind the praise is the most important thing to consider. Are you praising because you are irrationally afraid she will develop low self-esteem, love you less, or rebel? Or because you want to point out how wonderful you think what she did is, just to share the joy in your heart?

My dad was a manipulative praiser. He had certain interests, and if you showed interest in them, he would lavish on the praise. But he didn't make much effort to show interest in the things YOU were interested in, and it hurt. It's much different than saying, "Yeah, what a great job you did cleaning your room!"

Also, I've never read UP, but it just drives me crazy that "good job" is the worst phrase ever, since it really is a kind of specific one. It's just a shortening of "you did a GOOD JOB on that painting", or whatever. I use it quite often, and think it's worlds different from "good girl/boy". Rant over.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

IMO just own it, acknowledge your opinion as your opinion and not the all knowing all seeing overarching perspective. Kwim? That is the problem with praise IMO, that the parents act like we are the ultimate knower of our children, that our evaluation is everything.

Just acknowledge that you are a person in the relationship, and feel free to offer your opinions. Including and especially how fabulous you think your child is.


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## Luke's mama (Sep 29, 2009)

Altair, what a beautiful story about your dad! It really made me tear up.

And Savithny, well put! When I think about it that way, it gives me a new perspective.

There were some studies that came out recently in the news, I think they were done at Harvard and were longterm, and the conclusion was that neither spanking nor reasoning has an effect on changing children's behavior, that only praise has been proven to effect it.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Here's my take on it....

If my child shows me a picture and I just point out things about the picture that the child already knows....then I might as well not bother. Who wants what they already know parroted back at them? I do tell my child, "That's a beautiful horse. I love all of the colors you put in the sky!" If I didn't say this I'd be keeping my feelings a secret...which is akin to lying.

We dont' say "Good Job!" But we don't hide the truth from our children either. I wouldn't say "When you help cut the veggies it makes dinner go so much faster!" because my child already knows that, just as I wouldn't say "Your eyes are brown." She'd look at me like I'd lost my mind. Instead I'd say the truth, "I really enjoy spending time with you in the kitchen. It's so much help and I like hearing about your day while we work."

I also tell her things like, "You look beautiful today. It's obvious that you got a good night's sleep and woke up in a great mood!" because guess what!!! I love my daughter and she is the most beautiful little girl in the world to me. To keep this a secret from here would be akin to lying.

It's okay to be honest with your children. Just don't "Good Job" them to death. I really believe that EMPTY praise is the enemy. Sharing your feelings and being honest with your children isn't empty praise, and can only benefit them.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I wouldn't say "When you help cut the veggies it makes dinner go so much faster!" because my child already knows that, just as I wouldn't say "Your eyes are brown."

I make comments like this all the time, but I notice your kids are a lot older. I especially do it when I MAKE my kids help me, so they can understand why I just forced them to do so.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

I also make comments like this, but I always add something like "now I have more time to play with you!"


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I make comments like this all the time, but I notice your kids are a lot older. I especially do it when I MAKE my kids help me, so they can understand why I just forced them to do so.

You're describing a different situation though. Sure, if I was asking my child to help me and they said, "Oh mooooooommmmmm, whyyyyyyyyy?"
Ofcourse I'd say, " because it's running late and I need the help if we're going to eat in a decent amount of time"

I haven't changed this as they've gotten older at all. I have a home daycare with preschool aged children and toddlers and do the same for them as well.

Now I do state the obvious for children that are preverbal, that's much different. And preverbal children are usually helping me chop veggies either.


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

I think it's very important for children to receive praise from their parents and other adults in their lives. It's not necessary to "good job" everything they do, but children do need to know that they are doing things that are right/good and also to know that they please their parents. Internal motivation does not just spontaneously come into existence within a child. It comes from internalizing praise/motivation they receive from their parents. It begins in very young children who receive subtle verbal and nonverbal cues from their parents that give the child clues as to whether what they are doing is good/pleasing or the opposite. If a child is never praised and just fed back what they already know ("You made the sky blue!") then they just won't be receiving what humans, as social animals need, positive feedback.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
You're describing a different situation though. Sure, if I was asking my child to help me and they said, "Oh mooooooommmmmm, whyyyyyyyyy?"
Ofcourse I'd say, " because it's running late and I need the help if we're going to eat in a decent amount of time"

I haven't changed this as they've gotten older at all. I have a home daycare with preschool aged children and toddlers and do the same for them as well.

Now I do state the obvious for children that are preverbal, that's much different. And preverbal children are usually helping me chop veggies either.

I guess I think for some children it's still very helpful to use descriptive praise, even if they don't ask why. My dh has ADHD or something and is completely unable to keep things neat. I see my dd tending toward this, too, so after I remind her to pick up her clothes and close her drawers and straighten things up, I point out how it looks more pleasing to the eye, how you don't bang your shins on the open drawer, and how her clothes will be easy to find.


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

I can remember a real feeling of emptiness on those occasions when I directly asked my mother for praise and she said "It really doesn't matter if I like what you did, what matters is if you like it." I understood where she wanted me to go, but it didn't feel connected to where I really was.

I must remember this as I try to reprogram my praise-oriented responses into something more UP.


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## Cavy (Aug 21, 2009)

This psychological getting wrapped up in knots about knowing when and how much praise is okay and not too "manipulative" is one of the things that very much puts me off UP, lol.

Back to OP's examples: I can't see what's wrong with saying
"Wow! you did clean your room! You don't usually do that and I love seeing a tidy bedroom, I'm so glad you did that." Not to manipulate her, you understand, but as a very sincere statement of fact about what you feel about it.

Although if _my_ DD cleans her room I tend to faint away in shock before I can come out with any such effusive statements [grin].


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CorasMama* 
it sounds like she's seeking praise, and if that's what she needs, then she should get it. But then again, I'm a fan of praise.

I praise Cora every day, whether she's done something or not. I tell her she's the bestest kid in the whole wide world. I tell her I'm the luckiest mom ever to have gotten a kid so great (she really is). And I tell her how proud I am of her for X, Y, and Z, and how happy I am that X, Y, and Z makes her happy and feel accomplished. Of course, I also tell her (kindly) that the story she wrote needs a lot of work.

And you know what? She thrives on the approval. She has a TON of internal motivation for most things she does. Sure, she never cleans her room, but oh well. She spends hours in the kitchen making applesauce, regardless of the fact that I won't touch it (tart and sweet right now make me want to gag), experimenting with recipes, and I know that has nothing to do with my approval. She does the same thing with casseroles. And she's happy, despite all my praise, go figure!

My parents were totally praise-happy. They were also honest with me when I wasn't doing a great job, but they were very generous with the praise of the things they liked or that they observed making me happy. And it gave me a great sense of security. My dad still calls me his "number one kid", which makes me swell with pride.

Before she died, my mom always told me how proud she was of the mother I became. And that really gets me through some of the roughest parenting times. Because, let's face it, sometimes there is NO reward in parenting situations, no matter how well you do it. But my mother, a frickin' saint, was proud of the mother that I am, so I can keep doing it, and doing it well, yk?

I think it's every kid's right to think their parents think they hung the moon.

This was really beautiful and made me smile today


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philosoikou* 
We tell our kids plenty often when something they've done has helped us out ("When you help me chop the vegetables, making dinner goes faster"), or made someone happy ("Oh, look at John's face! He's delighted that you gave him a cookie"). We share in our children's joy when they are proud of an accomplishment ("You've practiced all summer on the monkey bars, and now you can get the whole way across without help!"). We acknowledge effort ("You tried really hard to open that lock by yourself").

These feel...insincere to me. It seems like you're making a lot of circles basically to say "good job" or "I'm glad you did something." With the veggie chopping, I'd be more likely to say, "thanks for helping me chop the veggies. I'm always glad to have help." If it were something that child hadn't been able to do before, then I probably would say, "you did a great job cutting up the squash."

As for the cookie example, is it really about Johnny's look of delight? In that way, it seems to avoid saying that you are glad she shared, you're just pointing out that Johnny liked it. The motivation still is external. Share because it makes others happy, rather than because you want to. What if Johnny said he didn't like oatmeal raisin cookies?

There are 2 problems with lots and lots of "good jobs" or "good girl/boy" to me. First it does get silly to say "good job" to bodily functions or other really basic, obvious things, and I see parents do that all the time. Second, I think "good job" often isn't attached to anything. Much like the way I've altered the way I use the word "no," if I say "good job," I try to put something with it. I may say "that was a good attempt on goal" or "you did a good job helping your sister clean up her art project." The problem is randomly saying "good job" so that it becomes so rote it loses its meaning and then is useless.

From a more philosophical perspective, there's a huge amount of information written on adults overcoming various childhood traumas. (As I've said many times on MDC before, I'm an abuse survivor, so I've read more than my share of these books.) One of the biggest issues discussed - and something I *still* struggle with - is the idea of never knowing that anyone loved or cherished me simply because I'm me. Every praise I had was attached to something I did or didn't do. Now obviously I think abuse situations are extreme, but the same concept applies. Your daughter needs (and it seems obvious from her questions) really to just know you love her. Because every positive comment seems tied to something she did or thinks, she really seems to need to know that you just think she's awesome because she's her. If one of my kids said, "am I clever," then I'd probably consider that maybe I hadn't been letting them know how much I love them lately and that I just enjoy them.


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