# Children who are let out to play unsupervised grow up to be healthier



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3097463.ece

Interesting.

The bit about the flashers made me giggle, I remember us perfecting the point and contemptuous laugh at around that age...These days parents would probably put a kid in therapy if she saw a flasher.


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## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

that is interesting. Nearly half of children 8 to 11 were never allowed out of the house without an adult? Wow!


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

great article. I totally agree with its point.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I disagree with the article. The title was noteworthy...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Cute! While I totally think the article has a point, I struggle a bit. Mostly because in the culture of my town, DC is likely to be stopped by a "well meaning" stranger wanting to know where her mommy is. DC was in Germany this summer and went for ice-cream with a gang for kids between 2.5-7!! It was wonderful. I think it's illegal here. : - (

We are taking the lead with allowing DC some freedom in the neighborhood - by far. The reactions from fellow parents sometimes makes me question myself tho.


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## sarahbeara87 (Feb 8, 2007)

Makes total sense.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

Quote:

I further think that the biggest difference between "these days" and better days is not an increase in risk but a huge increase in artificially stimulated alarm, boosted by prurient gawping at the occasional, albeit dreadful, tales of a Sarah or a Madeleine, whose agonies handily provide an excuse to impose a constant, intrusive and ultimately counter-productive adult presence upon children who deserve better.
I'm so glad that somebody is saying this.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

I don't agree with the article either. I don't think the point is that a child has to be out alone, I think the point is that a child from the time they are little needs to be given lots of open ended toys and time in the outdoors. My child can have supervised but non-intrusive play outdoors when I'm gardening and she's wandering around in her own little world, or I'm right inside the window peeking out or sitting reading while she plays. A parent's supervision does not have to mean the child can't be in their own little creative world.

Children not playing outside by themselves is not the problem - children who don't know how to pay by themselves is the problem. Children growing up with things that entertain them from dance classes to karate to video games and battery operated dolls and cartoons and.... on and on - those are the problem. Not saying all of those are bad all the time, but when most of the child's time is consumed with something to entertain them, and most of that entertainment is indoors, that is the problem.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
children who don't know how to pay by themselves is the problem.

I completely agree with you.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think the alone part is important when it comes to dealing with life on your own. From the crotchety lady down the road to a person asking for directions. It's just different when your parent is there watching. It seems a shame for kids not to have that.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I suddenly feel like a much better parent. I give my kids a lot moer feedom than most parents; at least on here. i always feel so neglectful but I also remember running all over town from the time i was about 5 years old. with a pack of other kids. yeah we made all kinds of trouble and it is a miricle no one ended up in the emergancy room. but those were valuble times.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
I don't agree with the article either. I don't think the point is that a child has to be out alone, I think the point is that a child from the time they are little needs to be given lots of open ended toys and time in the outdoors. My child can have supervised but non-intrusive play outdoors when I'm gardening and she's wandering around in her own little world, or I'm right inside the window peeking out or sitting reading while she plays. A parent's supervision does not have to mean the child can't be in their own little creative world.

Children not playing outside by themselves is not the problem - children who don't know how to pay by themselves is the problem. Children growing up with things that entertain them from dance classes to karate to video games and battery operated dolls and cartoons and.... on and on - those are the problem. Not saying all of those are bad all the time, but when most of the child's time is consumed with something to entertain them, and most of that entertainment is indoors, that is the problem.

I totally agree with this. I'm much more overprotective of my kids than my dh is. We grew up basically the same with lots of unsupervised time to play by ourselves. Our 5 year old is perfectly content playing outside out of our sight. Dh is also fine with this but it freaks me out a bit.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I'm a firm believer in benign neglect, so this makes sense to me.

ETA I like this quote:

Quote:

It would, of course, be ridiculous to suggest that they be left to run feral. But there is a difference between intervention when it is needed and interference as a default position.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think the author is right that increased adult interference is, at least in part, a governmental thing. This article helps explain why my friend had CPS called on her for letting her children, between the ages of 3 and 7, play _in their own yard_ while she was in the house.

It boggled my mind that anyone would even *make* such a call for this reason, and it boggled my mind even more that CPS would *respond* to such a call. But the caseworker insisted, in his conversation with my friend, that anytime a child's outdoors an adult needs to be out there, too.

I realize 3-7 is younger than the 8-11 the article was focusing on -- but these small children *never left their yard*, it's not like they were out roaming the city ... I was shocked to learn this could even be construed as neglect.

I believe in always being available to my kids, and attentive when they want/need my attention. But I agree with the author that they need the freedom to branch out as they're ready, and as they express the desire to do so.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
yeah we made all kinds of trouble and it is a miricle no one ended up in the emergancy room. but those were valuble times.

My sister and I each ended up in the emergency room once as children. Both incidents happened in our back yard, with my parents both present. We ran around the neighbourhood a lot, and never hurt ourselves then.

I hate that I don't give my kids as much credit as my parents gave me.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
I don't agree with the article either. I don't think the point is that a child has to be out alone, I think the point is that a child from the time they are little needs to be given lots of open ended toys and time in the outdoors. My child can have supervised but non-intrusive play outdoors when I'm gardening and she's wandering around in her own little world, or I'm right inside the window peeking out or sitting reading while she plays. A parent's supervision does not have to mean the child can't be in their own little creative world.

Children not playing outside by themselves is not the problem - children who don't know how to pay by themselves is the problem. Children growing up with things that entertain them from dance classes to karate to video games and battery operated dolls and cartoons and.... on and on - those are the problem. Not saying all of those are bad all the time, but when most of the child's time is consumed with something to entertain them, and most of that entertainment is indoors, that is the problem.


I agree.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it probably depends on where you live. Where I live, my daughter can play in the yard without me so long as she's within view out the window. When she's 8, I won't mind if she goes up and down the street without me, so long as she stays on our street. But my neighborhood is self-contained, we all know each other well, this is a small town where everyone knows everyone, and we have a very low crime rate. In different circumstances, I would almost certainly feel differently. Also, there's a causation/correlation problem here. Maybe the kids who are allowed to roam around unsupervised outside are allowed because they are in circumstances like mine, in which case they probably are at a level of affluence relative to mine, and in which case their schools are probably at a quality relative to ours, and in which case they can probably either afford a SAHM like me or quality and beneficial childcare rather than the childcare usually available to people in worse circumstances, etc. Those kinds of things could have caused the differences in the study as easily as outdoor unsupervised play.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

What a great article! I am lucky to live on a cul-de-sac and we have 14 kids from toddler on up. There are usually at least 5 of them outside at any time during daylight, non-school times.







They are usually unsupervised but my dd knows that she has to stay with them and there needs to be at least one older kid present. It's great because they play all the traditional things like jump rope and kick ball and use sidewalk chalk. THey have bike/scooter/trike races, play hide and seek. I love it. I noticed that the family whose kids are not allowed to go outside unsupervised are not nearly as social when their mom agrees to let them outside while she's working in the yard or something. They are hardly around because when they out of school they are usually in some supervised class or activity.

When the little ones play outside, we always have at least one or two neighbors on lawn chairs chatting and keeping a loose eye on the kids. I remember the days when I could bike with my friends all over the neighborhood. When my dd is older I will let her do that with a group of friends, but not as freely as I did. I was allowed go to the local park and the KFC and even the mall!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

mamazee - i don't know. i grew up in poverty and that is exactly why I had the freedom I did. because we didn't have a sitter most of the time in the summer/holidays. we lived in a little dirty town outside of Dalas with lots of crime. and i am sure the places we rode our bikes were sketchy at best. Some of the running around we used to do was to get my neighbor ciggarettes.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I am pleased w/ the article because I am constantly being chided for being "so relaxed" with our son. Everyone here is petrified of "stranger danger" and their children are never out of their site, never ever. I do admit to being less relaxed then my folks (I had cousins 2 miles away that I walked to on my own at 4/5. This was with woodsy cut thru's and parts on an open road.) but I still give my child plenty of freedom. We live in a rural area w/ a state park as a back yard. He is often out there alone, playing w/ the dogs, riding a bike, playing on the swingset, etc. He walks to the neighbors on his own and while I can technically hear them I can't see them. He knows to give me holler when he gets there or to have the mom call me if its winter and the windows are closed.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Like most things, I think the important part of this in an attachment-parenting-way, is considering what are the needs of the kids.

My six year old is such an extreme extrovert, to play outside without company for him would be a tortuous event. It's not that he doesn't know how to do that--it's that his personality is such that being alone is unpleasant for him. He would not be comfortable.

Even with friends over, I try to stay close by--there are numerous instances where the kids need help navigating some situation or another. I feel like it would be a disservice to them to impose a situation where they needed to figure it out on their own.

I don't know. I AM that mom at the playground who's following my kids around loosely on the equipment. There are so many instances where my kids and other kids have turned to me for help b/c I'm the only adult available, or I've had to intervene in some kid trying to whale on mine. It's just not been my experience that kids do better faring for themselves in these situations. Given the choice, it seems that many of them are looking for an adult to help them. I guess if folks are comfortable with that, then that's their business, but I always find it curious that the ones who say they're not right there also assert that the kids are just fine and not needing help--uh, how would they know?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
My child can have supervised but non-intrusive play outdoors when I'm gardening and she's wandering around in her own little world, or I'm right inside the window peeking out or sitting reading while she plays. A parent's supervision does not have to mean the child can't be in their own little creative world.

Yep. A parent can be present without hovering or even being involved in the child's play. And a child can be free and exercise his/her independence without being alone.

I think the main issue now is that parents are all over their kids at all times, constantly intervening in everything they do. DS doesn't go to the playground much anymore, but I remember when he was smaller and we used to go and there was a constant chorus of "No!" "Share!" "UP the slide, not DOWN!" "You're supposed to do it THIS way!" "Take turns now!" Parents can be such downers.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I do let my 8 year old and 4 year old play outside unsupervised. That said, there are often a few parents outside at any given time and we all sort of look out for one another's kids, but we rarely interfere unless someone is in danger or hurting someone else/themselves. I also do look out the window or open the door and check on them every now and then but I think it's good for them to have a little independence.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

The article is correct that I had a lot more freedom to roam the neighborhood.

I am lucky that I live on a block with a lot of kids ranging from 5 - 14. There is always a bunch of them outside doing something. We parents make periodic spot checks to make sure all is right with the world and then go back to what we were doing. My sister was visiting yesterday with her 2 children (6 & 8) and the kids went outside to play. My 9 year old asked if they could go down the block (we live on a dead end) and I said sure. My sister looked a little paniced when she couldn't see them. I told her they walked to the end of the block, but don't worry, I told them to stay away from the river. It is not often a younger sibling can get in a zinger. Anyway, the kids were fine. Where my sister lives you don't let the kids off your property. It's just not done.

I do believe that kids need freedom but I also believe that the amount of freedom can be dictated by the neighborhood you live in.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I guess if folks are comfortable with that, then that's their business, but I always find it curious that the ones who say they're not right there also assert that the kids are just fine and not needing help--uh, how would they know?









Maybe they know because, like me, they're always available and their kids always know where to find them?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I don't know. I AM that mom at the playground who's following my kids around loosely on the equipment. There are so many instances where my kids and other kids have turned to me for help b/c I'm the only adult available, or I've had to intervene in some kid trying to whale on mine. It's just not been my experience that kids do better faring for themselves in these situations. Given the choice, it seems that many of them are looking for an adult to help them. I guess if folks are comfortable with that, then that's their business, but I always find it curious that the ones who say they're not right there also assert that the kids are just fine and not needing help--uh, how would they know?









I'm that Mom too and yeah I agree. It's not that they don't need help - it's that someone else is helping them!

A few weeks ago though I was at this playground and a young girl (about 6 probably) had gotten stuck in the monkey bars and was balling her eyes out calling for her mother. Her mother was lounging on a chair and without looking hollered back "you're OK!" So I helped the girl down and her Mom looked over just as I was putting her daughter down and ran over and shot me the most awful look, like this:









I hate the playground.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Like most things, I think the important part of this in an attachment-parenting-way, is considering what are the needs of the kids.

My six year old is such an extreme extrovert, to play outside without company for him would be a tortuous event. It's not that he doesn't know how to do that--it's that his personality is such that being alone is unpleasant for him. He would not be comfortable.


You know what monkey's mom, and that's really just the bottome line. It's not about "hovering parents" or "helicopter Moms". It's about meeting the needs of your Kids.

My DS is also an Extreme Extrovert. Extreme. It's NOT meeting his needs to be left alone without company for him. (Company) *preferably* either DH or Myself. That's just who he is.

One size does not fit all. I have to really hold tight to that phrase when I read articles like that.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
One size does not fit all. I have to really hold tight to that phrase when I read articles like that.

That's a good point.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

This is a very interesting thread.

When I was little I was also a roamer. The neighborhood, the woods, we'd go to the corner store sometimes. I am so hesitant to let dd go for a walk around the neighborhood with her friend and not me. I don't KNOW if this is an unreasonable fear. _*I*_ was okay doing it as a child, why wouldn't she be? Yet, still when she asks to go for a walk I ask her to stay where I can see her (there's a road she can walk down in front of our house that I can see her for about 7 house lengths). I worry about somebody snatching her up (shes 10 and wears size 6x, petite child). So, how do you get to a point that you loosen that leash and let them go unsupervised? At what age did you begin allowing your kids to roam the neighborhood? I know I was doing it when I was 7, but that seems awful young.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Sigh. Another writer who obviously lives in a suburban cul-de-sac with a fenced in back yard. Back in the 1970s, most of us grew up in this environment.

Perhaps this person should try living in an apartment in the center of a city (and in a commercial rather than purely residential area) with a few kids in tow. I would then be interested in how she felt about sending the kids out in the street to play.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
You know what monkey's mom, and that's really just the bottome line. It's not about "hovering parents" or "helicopter Moms". It's about meeting the needs of your Kids.

My DS is also an Extreme Extrovert. Extreme. It's NOT meeting his needs to be left alone without company for him. (Company) *preferably* either DH or Myself. That's just who he is.

One size does not fit all. I have to really hold tight to that phrase when I read articles like that.

This is so true. My son is also an extreme extrovert ... he talks to everyone that passes by us or makes any kind of eye contact.







We live in an apartment but have a nice green belt back behind us, I can stand out on the patio (3rd story) and see him while he plays. I try to encourage him sometimes to go down there any play, but he has zero fun all alone (not many kids here) and wants me to come down and engage in his games.

It would be the very same way if I asked him to go ride his skateboard or bike alone ... he would be very safe, I would be close by and able to check on him easily ... but he would be miserable. He likes me to race him, we talk while he rides ..

I think like all things attachment parenting, you keep the personality of your child in mind and meet THEIR needs. I think that's a wonderful article and I have fond memories of being independent as a child. But I do think you need to keep your own child's needs in mind .. I can see mine wandering and playing when he has friends from school or other children to engage with .. but all alone? It goes against his extrovert nature. So for now I'll keep playing with him. Happily.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I agree with the article. That I am a strange and odd person for letting my little girls PLAY outside on the sidewalk - in my suburban neighbourhood .5 block from an elementary school - boogles my mind.

You should have seen the look of some of my neighbours when they thought I couldn't see them and had a bad look on their faces, and I said hello from my livingroom couch. I supervise unobtrusively. Even my children often don't realize I'm checking on them every couple of minutes.

When your protection is hindering your child's development as a person, you have to question your "protection."


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Sigh. Another writer who obviously lives in a suburban cul-de-sac with a fenced in back yard. Back in the 1970s, most of us grew up in this environment.

Perhaps this person should try living in an apartment in the center of a city (and in a commercial rather than purely residential area) with a few kids in tow. I would then be interested in how she felt about sending the kids out in the street to play.

I live in an apartment in the city, in what is not a purely residential area, and I have no qualms whatsoever about sending my kids out to play.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
I think like all things attachment parenting, you keep the personality of your child in mind and meet THEIR needs. I think that's a wonderful article and I have fond memories of being independent as a child. But I do think you need to keep your own child's needs in mind .. I can see mine wandering and playing when he has friends from school or other children to engage with .. but all alone? It goes against his extrovert nature. So for now I'll keep playing with him. Happily.









I totally agree with this. It's all about getting to know OUR OWN children and meeting their needs.

When this is our focus, there's no need to criticize parents who do things differently -- as in Demeter9's experience where the neighbors had ugly looks on their faces when they thought there was no adult watching her little girls.

When we're each just in tune with our own unique children and their unique needs -- we're generally too busy to evaluate and criticize other parents.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

It's not that letting an extrovert out to play free doesn't work; it's that it doesn't work _when no one else does_. If there were already half a dozen children that the extroverted child already knew outside playing, I'm sure it would be different. So, we don't live in an ideal world, where we live near lots of families we know with kids of compatable ages, who all trust each other, and let their children play freely. That doesn't negate the _idea(l)_ of free outside play.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
It's not that letting an extrovert out to play free doesn't work; it's that it doesn't work _when no one else does_. If there were already half a dozen children that the extroverted child already knew outside playing, I'm sure it would be different. So, we don't live in an ideal world, where we live near lots of families we know with kids of compatable ages, who all trust each other, and let their children play freely. That doesn't negate the _idea(l)_ of free outside play.

Very true.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
You should have seen the look of some of my neighbours when they thought I couldn't see them and had a bad look on their faces, and I said hello from my livingroom couch. I supervise unobtrusively. Even my children often don't realize I'm checking on them every couple of minutes.

That's one of the ways I expanded my boundaries with ds1. I remember leaving him to play in the toy aisle at the grocery store for the first time. He never knew that I was hovering in the next aisle, and periodically poking my head around to check on him. I did that several times, until I was satisfied that he really would stay there, and wasn't causing any problems with the toys. He thought he had that independence sooner than he actually did.

I underestimate the kids all the time. I don't even let dd out in the complex without an adult (or ds1 and/or his friends). But, at just a few years older than her, I was catching the bus across town. I could manage that, so why don't I think my dd can handle walking to the playground in our complex (about a half block away)?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't know. I had a lot of freedom growing up and I got into a LOT of trouble.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I don't know. I had a lot of freedom growing up and I got into a LOT of trouble.

I got into a lot of trouble, too - as a teenager...mostly at school, though. When left on my own, I was mostly okay.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I had an almost adult free childhood - actual serious neglect - and while we did many things that were scary and stupid, we also were very independent and capable. I rarely got in trouble, though sometimes trouble found me. And sometimes it was scary. But often it gave me lots of latitude to direct my own course.

I have a very hard time with the idea that my very bright children should be treated as if they are too incapable to live life. So, while I supervise almost everything I find that I question the reason why I'm doing so with the oldest fairly often. I'm really not sure that I am doing her a favour. But I also don't want anyone calling protective services on me. And the NASTY things women say about children playing by themselves! Holy Crap - I don't want that directed at my children.

Then everyone wonders why children are suffering from lack of vitamin D, and exercise, and increasing diabetes and heart disease! Because I AM AN ADULT and I legitimately have a ton of things to do - like make dinner and making sure my children have clean clothing. Why my children should be forced to stay in because I have things to do seems ridiculous.

Rant off.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I believe in giving kids age appropriate responibilities. That includes some unsupervised time, with the length and location appropriate to the age of the child. My 4 year old can be unsupervised in our house and our back garden for about 30 min max. When he gets older (maybe a year), he can walk to his friend's house (who lives two doors down - I can see their back yard from my back yard) by himself for an hour or so. And older again - maybe 7 or 8 - to friends who live farther - two/three blocks. Etc etc.

I see it as skills building. I won't always be around and I want my kids to learn how to get themselves out of scrapes when needed. This means that sometimes, yes, they will get into situations that are scary and maybe even a bit traumatic. But they need that in order to figure out how to cope. My job is to help assess what they are ready for and give them the street smarts ahead of time so they have some ideas of how to handle the real world.

My own mom was big on street smarts. She forced me to go to NYC by myself - by train - once a month at age 13. But before I did she told me what to look out for - to see if someone is following me, how to protect my wallet, where to go for help. These skills helped me a lot more than if she had always accompanied me everywhere.

Again, age appropriate is the key - my 2 year old is NOT allowed in the back garden by himself. My 4 year old has earned that right because I now know I can trust him to stay in the garden. ETA - and location is also key - my neighborhood is very safe - I know every single one of my neighbors and they know me and my kids. And we always have lots of people walking around, who keep an eye on things.

your mileage may vary.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I remember riding my bike all over the neighborhood and playing with all the other kids as young as 5 or 6. Then when I was about 11-12 I took a class trip to Washington D.C. Once everyone arrived at a destination, say the Capitol building, we were allowed to explore freely. I can't say that organization or safety was considered very much because four of us including myself ended up getting lost on the last day of the trip for about 2 hours. The busses were not parked where they were originally going to be, and no one bothered to tell us. We spent most of that time wandering around the Smithsonian, scared to death. But it was a learning experience for sure. We had to learn how to approach a policeman and tell them that we were lost and trying to find our group. There were several livid parents waiting back at the school that evening...

We live in the city in a residential area, but only a few blocks away from some of the worst neighborhoods in the city. It is quiet over here mostly, but in the summer this street is overflowing with kids of all ages-and for the most part they don't cause trouble. We have some smart alecks that like to hop the fence in the backyard, but they stopped once they got sick of me popping my head out the window, yelling and scaring the crap out of them. I don't think I would have any problem letting my kids roam outside as long as they stayed on our street ( its a very long street ). But they are much too young right now so I don't have to deal with it yet (2 and 1 )


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## imatulip (Nov 18, 2007)

I'm glad I live in a neighborhood where the kids can go out and play. We've gone over the rules with them, but I do think it's important for them to just be kids and enjoy the creativity of the outside.


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## canuckgal (May 5, 2004)

Yes, it depends on the kid. I struggle with this when I see tiny 6yr olds getting themselves to school without another older one with them, etc. (we homeschool) We live along a highway and no way would I ever dream of letting dd go to the store by herself as it is a walk up the highway, and she barely remembers to look to cross the road. I live on a quiet street in a small community of about 400-500 people, but we don't know anyone on our street except our neighbours enough to say hi. I remember being a bit nervous when dd would go over there in the summer to jump with their 5 yr old on the trampoline, not because I didn't trust the parents, but because she is a very intense kid who gets emotional and crying/upset easily, and at times needs me to run interference for her or make a gentle suggestion before a situation gets out of hand...although she is MUCH better than she was say at 4 yrs old. I just don't think kids like her should be left to fend for themselves in social situations completely like that. So, I was always in earshot on the other side of the hedge/trees, tinkering in the yard, etc but definitely not right beside her. She also plays outside in our yard for maybe a half hour at a time by herself, but I know now she won't leave the yard. Ds on the other hand is much more impulsive, and I wouldn't trust him not to wander off.

I was a 5-7 yr old in the early-mid 70's, and remember going waaay up the street to the park, being called home for supper, etc. My mom says things were different then...we all knew our neighbours more and looked out for each other more. I have NEVER lived in a community where I would find that true today however.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I TOTALLY agree with this! My kids go out alone all the time, as I did as a kid. I would never want them to miss out on that.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I'm that Mom too and yeah I agree. It's not that they don't need help - it's that someone else is helping them!

It's been my experience over and over again, too.

Those kids don't seem healthier or more capable, it seems like Lord of the Flies. I'm not comfortable letting my children navigate those sorts of situations, and I know they're not comfortable trying to navigate them without me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Again, age appropriate is the key - my 2 year old is NOT allowed in the back garden by himself. My 4 year old has earned that right because I now know I can trust him to stay in the garden. ETA - and location is also key - my neighborhood is very safe - I know every single one of my neighbors and they know me and my kids. And we always have lots of people walking around, who keep an eye on things.

your mileage may vary.

Not sure if your location line is current but FYI, Ffx Co. has some very strict guidelines about leaving children unsupervised--like no 7 or under in a backyard, if I recall correctly.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

I've gone back to being a lot more relaxed about my kids playing outside unsupervised since Michael Devlin was arrested. Those kidnappings happened very close to me, so it's not like I was a little paranoid for no reason. When you see the same vehicle behind the school bus for a week and KNOW the driver doesn't live on your road, you get a little paranoid after someone you know through someone else has had a child kidnapped.

Anyway, now that he's behind bars we're more relaxed. The almost 7yo has been allowed to play outside alone for several years now, but he was told to stay in the backyard. Now he has free reign of the clear part of our property. The almost 3 year old doesn't have as much freedom, but she is allowed to play outside with her brother as long as they stay far back from the road and away from the rooster. I check on them from time to time, but I don't hover and I don't always know exactly where they are. They know if they don't come when I call them, they'll go back to only being allowed in the backyard.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I had a LOT of freedom to roam and play out when I was younger. I remember going out to play by myself from the age of 5-6 onwards. But we're talking the late 1970's. There were predators even then though.

But that freedom that I had, I'm nervous about my son having that same level of freedom to roam and play out, because the world has changed a lot in the past 30 yrs.

Peace


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
It's been my experience over and over again, too.

Those kids don't seem healthier or more capable, it seems like Lord of the Flies.

And I've never seen anything like this. We live just in front of a big housing project so when we're at the sprinkler park in the project I'm often the only parent as the other parents are all within ear shot of the kids. You know what I see? Kids ranging from toddler to teen all hanging out and playing together and helping each other when one needs. I am always so impressed and in awe of just how different the reality is when I compare it to stories I hear. Growing up it was the same way for me in my community.

I think kids will look to an adult if one's around but if one's not then they're incredibly resourceful. For me it's about DS learning how to get himself out of comparatively safe tricky situations so he has the confidence and skills if as he gets older he finds himself in a less safe tricky situation. DS has a lot of alone time outside - sometimes truly alone or sometimes in big crowds. When we first started giving him more freedom it was amazing how his confidence soared.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Not sure if your location line is current but FYI, Ffx Co. has some very strict guidelines about leaving children unsupervised--like no 7 or under in a backyard, if I recall correctly.

So how would Ffx Co. define "unsupervised?" If a parent stays on the lower level of the house and periodically checks on her 6 or 7yo through the window -- is that unsupervised?

I don't live in Virginia -- and I don't think my state has any such rule. At least, I do see quite a few children playing outdoors on our block, and I don't always see parents outdoors. But then again, my friend had CPS called on her for letting her kids play in the yard, and apparently the caseworker didn't see it as "supervision" for her to keep an eye on them through the window, so maybe there is some kind of a weird rule here, too.

That really stinks. Here I was, thinking it was all about me being tuned in with my children, listening to my gut, and following my (and their) comfort level when it comes to deciding how much freedom to roam is appropriate at any given age. But the state had it decided for me all along!

Isn't it comforting to know that we don't have to put any thought into our parenting any more -- 'cause Big Brother's there to tell us what to do? Yikes!







:


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah, I agree that's a ridiculous law. All it does it keep the kids sitting inside in front of the TV more. And I'm not talking about MDC moms keeping their kids in front of the TV, but we all know that most kids in this world watch a TON of TV, and I bet that's true of Ffx. County too. The more kids play outside, the less kids in general watch TV, and to limit a kid to playing outside to only when the mom can be right there is ridiculous. My daughter often plays outside while I'm cooking or cleaning in the kitchen because I can see her right out the window the whole time. In fact, in nice weather she's usually outside.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Y'know, Zee, maybe there's a conspiracy to keep kids indoors more so they'll be overweight and develop more health problems. Yes, I realize the government supposedly wants everyone to be healthier because of how costly it is to treat all the American illnesses -- but then again, there are some powerful groups that stand to profit from obesity.

I'm only half joking about this!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It just freaks me out that it's now (in some places) a crime for a 5 or 6yo to head outdoors to play in the yard while Mom's doing stuff in the house.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Well my children had some wonderful adventures yesterday. They went outside alone to play in the snow, then brought in their youngest sister because she was cold, then they went and wandered the neighbourhood. They found a stray dog and brought him home to play with for a few hours. They went shoe skating in the canal. Then they went down the road and borrowed some sleds and went and found a hill to sled on that I didn't even know existed here LOL. They built a snowman with another family. Then a few were taken and dropped off at the indoor pool along with a friend whose parents had left him home alone while others stayed here at home alone and cleaned their rooms and did laundry while I went grocery shopping with two younger. They all were home by three to help me clean the house because we had company at six and all the children went off into bedrooms to play alone. When I think about it I hardly looked at my children all day. They all made their own breakfast and lunches too. This is a normal day for us.

My kids are always complimented for their good behavior and talents. I am a SAHM but I pay very little attention to them in the way that parents do today. My own mother and grandmother were the same. I shuttle to some activities but I never hover over them.

My children know their limits and I trust them to follow them.


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## WeasleyMum (Feb 27, 2007)

I had plenty of freedom to wander and roam as a kid. It probably helped that my sister and I are close in age (2 years) so we were always together, and that we lived in a nice suburb.

The year that I was in second grade we lived in Heidelburg, Germany and it seems to me that I had almost unlimited access. I walked to school--alone--everyday, more than 1/4 mile through town. Got to go the the twice-weekly farmers' market by myself, could go with my friend (also 7) to the candy store, stationary store, bakery, everywhere. Actually the four of us American kids, two seven-year-olds and our five-year-old sisters, pretty much roamed our neighborhoods freely and none of us spoke German _at all_, so we were pretty helpless. That was in 1988-1989.

And something really scary did happen: my sister got separated from us in the toystore at the mall at Christmas. She thought that we'd accidentally left her behind, so she walked back to the apartment... over a mile, at night, in the cold. Goodness knows how she even knew the route-- she was only 5. When she got there, we weren't there, so she walked to our friends' apartment-- they also weren't home. Then the police find her and bring her back to the mall but that was really scary for her. Still, none of that happened due to the freedom we were allowed.

I remember that year as the best of my childhood and a lot of that was having so much freedom. I would want the same for my kids, although my dad told me recently that he didn't know what they were thinking, letting us out like that.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

OMGoodness! How do we find out if kids being alone in the backyard is a crime? in our area? My 7, 6 and 4 year olds play outback while I check on them through windows/doors. I'd hate to invite CPS into our lives!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

thats a crazy law. I let my kids start playing outside alone when they are about 2 1/2 and heading down the block (the the corner and back) when they are 5 and heading to the park 5 blocks from here when they are 6 or 7 (my 4 year old could go with her sisters). and I still feel like a hovering parent.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

What I'm wondering is -- has there really been an increase in crimes committed against children, or is there just greater awareness of things like molestation?

I've been greatly reassured to learn that most kidnappings are committed by the child's other parent, and most abuse is perpetrated by trusted family members and not by random strangers.

I know it sounds weird for me to be "reassured" by this information. However, my dh would certainly never snatch my babies and keep them away from me (nor would I do it to him, 'cause we love our children too much to deprive them of their other parent).

And there are *very, very few* people whom we feel we can trust to spend one-on-one time with our children -- and actually, only our oldest has spent one-on-one time with others away from dh or me, and she started doing this after she was 3 1/2 to 4 and very verbal.

So to me, the "stranger-danger" stuff was what seemed scary. It's been helpful to realize that what dh and I really need to do is just keep following our instincts regarding who we trust and who we don't. This was confirmed when I saw the lady who used to play Nellie Olsen ("Little House" show) on a talk show, sharing her experience as a survivor of child sexual abuse.

One of her biggest pieces of advice, which stuck with me, was to listen to our children when they said, "Don't leave me with so-and-so!" Dh and I have always had a policy of never forcing separation, and it was nice to have that confirmed, since so many people we know IRL advocate just letting kids cry so they can "get used to" being left with others.

When some friends invited dh and me (and our new baby) out to dinner, and offered for our 5yo dd to stay at their house with their children (their teenaged dd's were watching their younger children, who our 5yo loved to play with) -- dh and I left it up to dd: if she hadn't wanted to stay there and play, we would have taken her with us ... or, since our friends really wanted it to just be a couples' thing (though of course they accepted that a nursing baby needed to stay with Mommy), we probably would've had to cancel and stay home.

And it would have been okay. We've always felt okay about just doing things together as a family, and have never felt a need to leave our kids with sitters.

So ... the information that it's not so much the "stranger-danger" that's a risk, as it is the known and trusted friends and family members, has been a relief to my mind and heart.

I really feel okay about following my (and my children's) instincts regarding how much freedom from supervision is safe and appropriate ... I just wish there wasn't this risk that someone who disagreed could actually make legal trouble for us.

And I can't help thinking there are better, more effective uses for all those taxpayer-supported resources. Since I keep hearing about all these abuse cases (one where a mother starved 2 of her children to death) that are reported but never followed up on because of "caseworker overload" or some such nonsense -- I wonder which child was left to bleed to death while my friend was harassed for letting her kids play in the yard.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

This is something I struggle with. I have always known it's good for kids to be unsupervised to work things out for themselves. But I have been living in apartments for the last 10 years, and it's not always safe for younger kids to be out unsupervised. Since we moved to this new complex 2 years ago, I have let my 8 year old (he was 6 then) go across the parking lot (we're almost at the end, so not much traffic, and they're supposed to stay on the sidewalk and go around the road, but they don't always follow that rule) to the large playground, but he gets picked on sometimes by some older kids. I go over and set them stright and he's fine for a few months until it happens again.

I have let my 4 year old go with him when my neighbor's kids are also out, more friends to watch out for each other, but I don't feel completely comfortable with it all the time. I go over to the window every 5-10 minutes to check on them, and it's a little excessive. I can't wait until we move to a house with a backyard. If it's not fenced, we'll be fencing it, and I can let all 3 of my kids go out there and play. It's good for them, and I feel like they've been really missing out. My oldest is old enough to know when they're doing something dangerous and to get me. Kids aren't dumb, and I think it's a good way to learn responsibility.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I really do think that the area one lives in, the neighbours and the awareness of the child makes a difference.

I live on a street where I've seen children as young as 3-4 yrs old playing out with older groups of children and the parents inside, with no obvious signs that they were being monitored by them. My biggest fear was a child being hit by a car, as many would run all over the road.

For me, I feel that I am responsible for my son's safety, and I just couldn't allow him to play outside unsupervised by either myself, Dad or Nana. This thought isn't a criticism of parents that do allow it, but this is how I feel in regards to my family.

However, as my son grows older and his awareness grows, then I hope that I will trust myself enough to have faith in my son's ability to guard his own safety when playing outside.

Peace


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
And I've never seen anything like this. We live just in front of a big housing project so when we're at the sprinkler park in the project I'm often the only parent as the other parents are all within ear shot of the kids. You know what I see? Kids ranging from toddler to teen all hanging out and playing together and helping each other when one needs. I am always so impressed and in awe of just how different the reality is when I compare it to stories I hear. Growing up it was the same way for me in my community.









Until DS started school, we belonged to a homeschooling group where there were children of all ages who were all parented similarly - with parents who treated them respectfully and trusted their children to work things out for themselves (or speak up for help from a parent if they needed it). It has always amazed me the way that they treat each other with respect and look out for each other. To this day, when we get together on occasion, DS falls right back into that dynamic. It's wonderful to see the older children look out for the younger ones, all of them work as a team toward a common goal, their resourcefulness in accomplishing something, etc.

It's completely different with his school and neighborhood friends, many of whom have been raised in an environment where the parents are very interventionist. He really stands out in his consideration for other people because he's surrounded by kids who would sooner run over a toddler on the playground than help him/her climb up the steps. They're also much more likely to come to an adult for help figuring something out. DS tends to fall into that pattern quickly, too, asking me to intervene when I know he's capable of doing something for himself. It's interesting to see that transition.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

This is an interesting topic.

I was allowed to roam my neighborhood from an early age but there weren't very many kids my own age on my street so it was pretty boring. (Also a very safe neighborhood...safe and boring!)

Playdates back in the 80's were usually largely unsupervised, and it allowed for fun and creativity, I suppose, but also to bullying that flew under the radar, and kids discussing sex in graphic terms (based on what they had heard from older kids, etc.) while the adults were clueless. I could write a list a mile long of things that happened or were discussed while the adults were elsewhere, that would have horrified a conscientious parent. I don't feel these experiences helped me become more independent - they confused the heck out of me, b/c I didn't have an adult to interpret them for me. Having adults be out of earshot also means that if one kid is mean to another kid, it requires either self-policing (does not happen often with kids!!) or someone tattling.

Where we live, in a gated complex, many of the kids who live here kind of roam in gangs. They are OBNOXIOUS. And very, very mean to each other. I would NEVER let dd play with these kids, when she gets older. It certainly does resemble Lord of the Flies. I'm sure from a distance it looks like they are playing harmoniously - there are rarely physical fights - but they tease and ostracize each other cruelly (I hear them right out my window), are always playing games that exclude one or the other, they talk about things that are shocking for 7-10 year olds...

Of course, not all groups of kids playing outside are like this, but I REALLY wouldn't want dd's socialization to be in this context. Neither do I want to be a total helicopter mom. So, I don't know what will happen as she gets older.

In my IL's neighborhood in Greece, where we spend a few weeks every summer, there is a group of kids that seems very sweet who literally roam 24/7. They ride bikes on a busy road by the beach, they go to the store, they go to each others' houses, they do whatever. They range in age from 5 to 11 or so. On the one hand, it's nice to see that they feel so free. But I honestly don't think that riding bikes around at 3 AM is necessary to a good, free childhood. And, they are often loud and obnoxious. Not mean to each other like the kids here in CA, but not aware of how they are disturbing others. And no one calls them on it. They are raising each other, apparently.

I am more of a "Hold On To Your Kids" mama. I think kids need adults nearby pretty much at all times, not to CONTROL them, but to help raise them, to notice what is going on with them, to gently steer them in another direction when they are "stuck" either with peer interaction or some other issue. That doesn't mean I think parents need to be always breathing down the neck of older dc. But with groups of childhood peers, especially, I think that adult supervision is really important (in the true sense of that word's etymology - vision = looking, super = over - NOT meddling, but keeping a watchful eye).


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I read the article and all the comments there and here after it. I think taking a long-range view that the rise of the automobile has to be taken into account. My greatest fear in letting my kids (age 6.5 and 4) walk down the street to play at a neighbor's (this is theoretical - they wouldn't want to go w/o me, very attached) is not that they would be snatched up by a pedophile or kidnapper, but that a UPS truck or other speeding vehicle would run them down. Our neighborhood is an older one from the 60s/70s and only has one entrance and 3 streets so safe in that sense, but the roads are very hilly and curvy and there are no sidewalks.

I am 43 and my mom was an older mom, too (now 82). I did have a lot of freedom as a child, but if I think about how my mom grew up - there just weren't a whole lot of cars then. They did have a few, but my mom and her brother rode a pony to the one room schoolhouse as did most of the other children! They just didn't have to watch out for crazy FedEx drivers. They grew up on a farm and did a lot of work on the farm and had a lot of freedom necessarily. I know as parents we all look back to our own childhoods when making decisions about how to parent our own kids. I'm sure my mom and dad (same age) remembered their childhoods and the amount of freedom they had and gave me a degree of freedom based on their own childhood experiences. In turn their parents would have not had to deal with cars at all in their childhoods.

I think I am more cautious with my kids about cars, etc. than my parents were with me. Back then I rode my bike to our neighborhood school and I don't think bike helmets had even been invented yet. We certainly didn't have them. It's a law in our town now that anyone under the age of 16 (I think) must wear a helmet. I think that's fine. As a child I had a neighbor who was killed after an argument with her mom when she took off across town on her bike (w/ no helmet) she was struck by a car trying to cross a 4 lane busy road and died of head injuries I believe.

Times change, y'know? I think that while the article makes some good points some of it does kinda smack of nostalgia. We don't live in a world where we ride ponies to school or not necessarily where it's safe to traverse our own neighborhoods (depending on the neighborhood of course).

A commenter on the Times UK site mentioned the rise in porn availability via the internet and other media outlets and the "sexual revolution" and theorized a corresponding rise in potential sexual predators. I don't know if they really corelate or not. I haven't looked for stats on that, but I do agree that that is certainly another way that times have changed.

I am happy that my dd1 goes to school where they have an hour to an hour and a half outside everyday in undirected activities. They can go a little ways into the woods surrounding the playground and build forts. They have elaborate games involving quartz from the gravel parking lot that they use as currency. They're safe from traffic. They're not completely unsupervised, nor would I want them to be at school, but they're not directed.

My particular kids are not extroverts, but they are super attached to dh and me and are super cautious and they would not feel comfortable going out of our yard alone. Sometimes they're not comfortable going in our yard alone although I would certainly let them. I do let them play by themselves all the time. I think I would explode if I had to direct their play. We have playdates with friends and all the kids go down to the basement playroom to play while the moms have tea in the kitchen or in nice weather the kids go outside. I do think kids working out issues by themselves is important and w/o their parent to turn to is important, but I think it's okay to have another parent there to turn to. That's a valuable skill to learn as well.

If my kids were the kinds of kids to feel comfortable apart from me I would happily let them explore the woods on their own. There aren't any critters (besides people) in our neck of the woods that would 'cause much injury (no rattlesnakes or mountain lions or grizzly bears), but I'm not going to force them to go play by themselves outside if they don't want to.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
And I've never seen anything like this. We live just in front of a big housing project so when we're at the sprinkler park in the project I'm often the only parent as the other parents are all within ear shot of the kids. You know what I see? Kids ranging from toddler to teen all hanging out and playing together and helping each other when one needs. I am always so impressed and in awe of just how different the reality is when I compare it to stories I hear. Growing up it was the same way for me in my community.

I think kids will look to an adult if one's around but if one's not then they're incredibly resourceful. For me it's about DS learning how to get himself out of comparatively safe tricky situations so he has the confidence and skills if as he gets older he finds himself in a less safe tricky situation. DS has a lot of alone time outside - sometimes truly alone or sometimes in big crowds. When we first started giving him more freedom it was amazing how his confidence soared.

Yeah, if those were the sortsof intereactions I'd witnessed I'd feel the same way.

And within certain groups, (like my friend's extended family) I've seen the same thing. And we're all extremely comfortable letting the kids play together with very little supervision.

Unfortunately, what I've seen play out over and over again at the playground or in other groups, is that the way the kids "work it out" involves the bigger kid(s) overpowering the smaller one(s). I'm *really* uncomfortable with that dynamic--as are my kids. So, there I am, hovering.







And mediating situations so that everyone feels good about the solutions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So how would Ffx Co. define "unsupervised?" If a parent stays on the lower level of the house and periodically checks on her 6 or 7yo through the window -- is that unsupervised?

Here's the wording (and they're clear that it is a *guideline*--for whatever that's worth):

Quote:

7 years and under:
Should not be left alone for any period of time. This may include leaving children unattended in cars, playgrounds, and backyards. The determining consideration would be the dangers in the environment and the ability of the caretaker to intervene.
So, I'm guessing that it's sort of a "retro-active" thing, where if the kid gets hurt or whatever, there's a guideline in place to hold an adult accountable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
All it does it keep the kids sitting inside in front of the TV more. And I'm not talking about MDC moms keeping their kids in front of the TV, but we all know that most kids in this world watch a TON of TV, and I bet that's true of Ffx. County too.

Nah, their nannies have them at their enrichment classes and programs.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
What I'm wondering is -- has there really been an increase in crimes committed against children, or is there just greater awareness of things like molestation?

I've been greatly reassured to learn that most kidnappings are committed by the child's other parent, and most abuse is perpetrated by trusted family members and not by random strangers.

So to me, the "stranger-danger" stuff was what seemed scary. It's been helpful to realize that what dh and I really need to do is just keep following our instincts regarding who we trust and who we don't.

I really feel okay about following my (and my children's) instincts regarding how much freedom from supervision is safe and appropriate ... I just wish there wasn't this risk that someone who disagreed could actually make legal trouble for us.

Yeah, I think the increased "word of mouth" society within which we live has played a huge part in it--more *hearing* about it and more awareness. Probably no more actually happening.

"Stranger Danger" is such a crock, really.

And I totally agree with the last part. I'm fine with people following their kids' leads on this issue, you know.

It's just when you ARE seeing kids who *obviously* need/want an adult to help them, and the adult refuses on the grounds that kids need to learn to "work it out for themselves"--well that's too close to all the other ways I see "independence" foisted on kids who are aren't ready. So articles like this one worry me a bit b/c it seems like another way to reinforce that prevelant attitude. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from, I guess.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I thought of another point I wanted to make.

In Greece, where kids seem to have MUCH more freedom than I as a parent would be comfortable with, the cultural context is a bit different. It is assumed that *all* adults are watching out for kids to some degree, not just the kids' parents.

I do NOT have the trust in my neighbors here in CA that would be required for such an assumption. (I don't have that trust in Greece, either, actually.)

It reminds me of another cultural difference between Greece and the U.S. In Greece, every single playground I've taken dd to (including private ones that you pay to get into) has lots of broken, dangerous equipment. To someone coming from the U.S., where playgrounds are generally pretty well-maintained and safe, it's shocking. I'm talking about jagged plastic edges broken off on toddler play structures. Play structures missing whole parts so they are obviously not safe to use. Swings missing parts, extremely rusty play equipment, etc. etc. etc.

And yet kids do not seem to get hurt. They notice where things are broken and avoid those parts. They figure out how to play in and among the broken toys and structures.

So, the kids in Greece probably *are* learning something my kid is not learning in the U.S. - how to have a sharp eye, look out for danger, be ingenious in how to use things. BUT - does that mean I should look for broken playgrounds for her to play in??

To me, no. Just b/c kids are getting something out of being unsupervised, or playing with broken equipment, does not mean I am going to be OK with that for my dd. She is learning other lessons from safe playgrounds and constant adult supervision - that she can trust her environment, that mom can help her if she needs it.

Our kids are learning no matter what environment we put them in; I think it's a fallacy that we are stunting them if we don't let them "roam free".

I wonder if I'll change my mind when my dd is older, though. It's possible.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

IMO, children do not thrive when parents manage them. Children need time that is not dominated by parental presence. Kids play differently when adults are not listening. It's exciting to ride your bike aroound town with friends.

My kids ride their bikes around town, and even in my liberal area, people have said to me, "I see your kids riding their bikes everywhere!" in this shocked way. This past fall, I called and asked a friend to tell my 13 yr old child it was time he headed home from her place (she knew he had walked there), which is an easy, pleasant, safe habor -bound mile, with lots of other joggers and runners and skaters. Next thing I know she is pulling into my driveway in her SUV. I met them on the porch and asked nicely why she drove him home "I felt so bad he had to walk all this way". I laughed and said "You jog this way every day-- and back. He's a kid, he can walk. It's a gorgeous afternoon". She was still "I felt so bad for him". I mean, are you kidding me? Later I asked him if he asked for a ride and he said no, and he didn't mind the walk, but she was insistent.

A mile walk when I was a kid growing up was nothing. We did it all the time, and none of us were fat and none of us grew up damaged. (At least not because we walked and played outside without parents).


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yeah, if those were the sortsof intereactions I'd witnessed I'd feel the same way.

And within certain groups, (like my friend's extended family) I've seen the same thing. And we're all extremely comfortable letting the kids play together with very little supervision.

Unfortunately, what I've seen play out over and over again at the playground or in other groups, is that the way the kids "work it out" involves the bigger kid(s) overpowering the smaller one(s). I'm *really* uncomfortable with that dynamic--as are my kids. So, there I am, hovering.







And mediating situations so that everyone feels good about the solutions.

[snip]
It's just when you ARE seeing kids who *obviously* need/want an adult to help them, and the adult refuses on the grounds that kids need to learn to "work it out for themselves"--well that's too close to all the other ways I see "independence" foisted on kids who are aren't ready. So articles like this one worry me a bit b/c it seems like another way to reinforce that prevelant attitude. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from, I guess.









ITA with this, monkey's mom!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Ugh!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Nora's Mom posted while I was struggling with my dad's laptop.









And I just have to say, I fully agree!

And it's interesting to hear how the kids respond to our involvement--"You guys are the *cool* parents--you're always playing with us!" or asking for our help or involvement even when their parents ARE right there later. It just starts to get to the point where I'm like, "Dear lord, where are YOUR parents?" And the parents are talking about how important it is for the kids to be independent and how great they work it out for themselves--but I'm just not seeing that.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Next thing I know she is pulling into my driveway in her SUV. I met them on the porch and asked nicely why she drove him home "I felt so bad he had to walk all this way". I laughed and said "You jog this way every day-- and back. He's a kid, he can walk. It's a gorgeous afternoon". She was still "I felt so bad for him". I mean, are you kidding me? Later I asked him if he asked for a ride and he said no, and he didn't mind the walk, but she was insistent.

How rude and insulting -- and intrusive -- to both you and your son!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
How rude and insulting -- and intrusive -- to both you and your son!

She was trying to be nice. We didn't take it personally. She's basically a good egg.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I agree as well with the cultural context stuff. What I see tho is s kind of two way street -- if we want a community, playground, street where everyone watches out for kids we have to be ok with being that person, yk? One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable parenting my DC the way I know she needs is that some parents seem to resent me standing back - as with HelloKitty and Monkey's Mom. I know you're talking about extreme examples but there are many, many (I feel) parents who are giving the stink eye over my 7 year old doing something without having me 2 feet away.

I almost feel that in our culture, more often the first reaction over helping a child is the "where is this kid's mother". Sometimes you see people not even helping or extending a careing watchful eye -- just the stink eye. I'm not really taling to mamas here because I have a feeling that you just have had really sucky eperiences that would have pissed me off too. But there are people who get bent over really little things.

That, and I do think on some freaky level kids live up to our expectations -- even those of strangers.

The post I got most from because it's the value I really see in this idea is the post from Siobang about skill building. For my own DC I worry that she actually needs some of these experiences to prepare her for what she'll face down the road in life.

DC wants to ride her bike around the block but because of our neighborhood my biggest fear is that some mother who disagrees with it is going to stop her and call the cops. That is, by far, the most likely problem she'll face and it would FREAK her out -- far more than all the other likely scenarios.

I don't know what the law is in my town, but seriously, if I can't let DC play in our privacy fenced back yard -- OMG!!!!!

Sometimes I feel that if our communities are as bad as some people seem to thing, WHY aren't we taking to the streets?

Sorry for rant, havn't had a full cup of coffee. ; - )


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
The post I got most from because it's the value I really see in this idea is the post from Siobang about skill building. For my own DC I worry that she actually needs some of these experiences to prepare her for what she'll face down the road in life.

Thanks.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about my own childhood and figuring out what I want to do similarly and differently for my kids. I do think I benefited from a fair amount of benign neglect, in that I learned pretty early on how to care for myself.

There were things I wish they had been more attentive to, especially setting up a home environment that didn't rely on adults (we lived in a pretty secluded area with no sidewalks and no kids around - I felt very isolated when my mom was not available to drive me around).

On the other hand, my parents were NOT this way with my brother. They were very overprotective of him - he couldn't do anything on his own because he was too "sensitive" or "just a little boy". Not entirely sure why they thought this - he is a very smart and capable guy.

The result is that they crippled him emotionally - being told and having adults demonstrate by their actions that you cannot handle the world is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It took him years to actually learn the basic self-care skills he never was allowed to learn as a kid - and he learned a lot of them as a teenager/college student, when the stakes are a hell of a lot higher. It isn't a surprise he made a lot of really stupid decisions once he got away from my parents, involving alcohol, drugs, and the law. And even then, my parents swooped in to rescue him.

Interestingly, my parents got the maddest when they found out that he had been arrested a year before, and he hadn't told them - instead, he just took care of it himself - paid the fines, attended the court dates, etc. My mother was furious that he hadn't told her, but when I pointed out that in fact she should be proud that he hadn't needed her to rescue him, she actually got angry at ME for encouraging him.

Now my family drama aside, I think it really helps us to question - how much we are doing to keep our kids safe, and how much we are doing to keep our kids dependent on us. I do believe that we don't want to force independence on our kids, but the opposite can also be very very damaging.

Letting them take risks is scary as all hell. But not letting them take any risks is really scarier - because some day they will be outside of our supervision. And they need to be prepared for that day.

My 2 cents.


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## mhaddon (Aug 25, 2007)

We live on a farm so DS gets to go out all the time. I feel it is good for him w/ he goes out w/ DH b/c he isn't watched and protected as much as when he's w/ mommy KWIM? He has more freedom. My LO's will have plenty of fresh air and chances to use their imaginations. DH and I grew up on farms and I think I was allowed out in the woods alone w/ my cousins at the age of 7 or something.

Of course we also don't have fences up in our house to keep DS's contained in one room. I watch them *gasp* and get off my butt to get them out of the fridge if DS1 gets the latch undone. So many moms I know have their children in pens...


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## NeedsTylenol (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

DC wants to ride her bike around the block but because of our neighborhood my biggest fear is that some mother who disagrees with it is going to stop her and call the cops. That is, by far, the most likely problem she'll face and it would FREAK her out -- far more than all the other likely scenarios.
Where we live now that's what I fear most with my kids.

I've been on both sides of things. I've been watching my kids from a few feet away while they explored something and had some meddlesome person assume they're alone and start scolding them. I've also had to parent someone else's child because his/her parents COULD NOT be found by anyone.

I'm not sure which scnario is worse, now that I think of it. Both things end up with upset children and irritated adults.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable parenting my DC the way I know she needs is that some parents seem to resent me standing back - as with HelloKitty and Monkey's Mom.

Whoah, whoah, whoah!







I have NO problem with adults who are standing back and whose kids are having a grand ol' time or are even asking for my help here and there. Truly.

What I have a problem with is adults who are standing back and teaching their kids to "work it out" at the expense of others (namely my kids







).

I *really* have a problem with those parents (my SIL














acting like I'm insane when I'm following my kid around--when it's largely to protect him from their children.

And I don't so much resent the parents whose kids end up coming to me for a drink of water and help getting up a ladder and tying thier shoe, but I do start to wonder what's going on in the parent/child relationship when a kid who doesn't know me at all (or very well), will come to me vs. go to his/her parent. I think it's off.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
For my own DC I worry that she actually needs some of these experiences to prepare her for what she'll face down the road in life.

See, and that's where I'm coming from, too. I want my kids to know how to deal with other kids and resolve conflicts and negotiate situations. And they're really getting good at it. But they're still building confidence, and many times the other kids they're dealing with are NOT used to resolving things that way. So they need a little help and often it's the "OMG, the ADULT said it, so I better listen," thing--which makes me sad, but it seems fairly common. So I just try to balance, balance, balance the stepping in, letting them handle it until they run into a problem, and meeting their needs. B/c, shoot, I would LOVE to hang out somewhere reading a gossip magazine while they trot off and did their own thing. *sigh* But it's just not where we are now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Now my family drama aside, I think it really helps us to question - how much we are doing to keep our kids safe, and how much we are doing to keep our kids dependent on us. I do believe that we don't want to force independence on our kids, but the opposite can also be very very damaging.

Letting them take risks is scary as all hell. But not letting them take any risks is really scarier - because some day they will be outside of our supervision. And they need to be prepared for that day.

My 2 cents.

Absolutely. I am NOT hoping for an outcome of dependence. Far from it. It's just like I said above, *we* are not there yet. And I do worry that so many parents are afraid of any dependence that they cling to articles like this and force their kids into independence before the kids are ready (just the same as sleep, weaning, etc., you know?).

And, sheesh, risk? No kidding! My kid started racing dirt bikes at age four! My two year old does flying leaps off the back of the couch! My poor old heart!







But, for us, these are things that, even though, *I'm* uncomfortable with, *they* are not--so that's where I follow.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

And I don't so much resent the parents whose kids end up coming to me for a drink of water and help getting up a ladder and tying thier shoe, but I do start to wonder what's going on in the parent/child relationship when a kid who doesn't know me at all (or very well), will come to me vs. go to his/her parent. I think it's off.


It's truly not "off" it's sometimes just personality/temperament. My 7 and 6 year olds come get me, my almost 4 year old just loves to seek out other nice mamas to comment on his cuteness. He loves talking to strangers (often to my dismay), and would totally prefer help off of the ladder from a random mama than from me.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
I'm a firm believer in benign neglect, so this makes sense to me.

Ah me too, ever since I read an article about it in Mothering many years ago.
When we are in the UK we set our kids free, they wander off to friends houses and go on the train everywhere (from about age 10) I also let them outside at home from about 2yo to play outside in the yard unsupervised. Digging up weeds, and sometimes flowers catching bugs and having fun.
I think kids are entertained way too much by parents nowdays.
My friends and I delt with a flasher when I was about 9. We all bust out laughing, and he got emarassed and ran off. No harm done and non of us needed therapy, all married and have kids now.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint* 
It's truly not "off" it's sometimes just personality/temperament. My 7 and 6 year olds come get me, my almost 4 year old just loves to seek out other nice mamas to comment on his cuteness. He loves talking to strangers (often to my dismay), and would totally prefer help off of the ladder from a random mama than from me.









Yes, that makes sense.

And I'm really not talking about one (or even several) random requests--lord knows my extrovert will talk to anyone!

But when kids I've never met at a party (aside from being "that mom" in the playroom a few minutes earlier







) later walk by their parents (who are free, just chatting) and come ask me for help multiple times (while I'm clearly engaged with my own kids), and I'm saying, "Uh, can you ask your mom to help you with that?" I think that's odd. Most of the time, too, the kid's like, "No, forget it."









So that's where I think, "Well, yeah, the kid *has* learned to 'work it out on his/her own'....but it might not be the best thing." And I *do* think that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish than parents who are willing to respond to their kids or paying enough attention to realize that their kids are hitting up every other adult in the room for help cutting their dinner (or at the playground to get up the ladder), you know?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WeasleyMum* 
...so she walked back to the apartment... over a mile, at night, in the cold. Goodness knows how she even knew the route-- she was only 5.

That must have been absolutely terrifying for your sister and for your family. I have to say, though, that it also underlines how much we underestimate our children and their capabilities, imo.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That must have been absolutely terrifying for your sister and for your family. I have to say, though, that it also underlines how much we underestimate our children and their capabilities, imo.

I totally agree!! So many talk of respecting our children, taking them seriously, etc yet these type of these threads have many of the same not recognizing that our kids are smart and resourceful ir even giving them a chance to show that they are!

While not nearly as harrowing as the one noted above at 6 yo I once woke up at sleepover and no one else was awake. After realizing that I wasn't going to breakfast anytime soon I chose to walk home- 3 plus miles. My parents found me eating a bowl of cereal when *they* woke up and I explained what I did. No one thought it strange but my parents did tell me I should have woken them up when I got home so they could call the sleepover family!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
While not nearly as harrowing as the one noted above at 6 yo I once woke up at sleepover and no one else was awake. After realizing that I wasn't going to breakfast anytime soon I chose to walk home- 3 plus miles. My parents found me eating a bowl of cereal when *they* woke up and I explained what I did. No one thought it strange but my parents did tell me I should have woken them up when I got home so they could call the sleepover family!

Wow! Now I call THAT resourceful.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
I totally agree!! So many talk of respecting our children, taking them seriously, etc yet these type of these threads have many of the same not recognizing that our kids are smart and resourceful ir even giving them a chance to show that they are!

I haven't seen anyone here saying that their kids aren't smart or resourceful or whatever.

I take flak for letting my kids have too much freedom to choose all sorts of things--TV, food, sleep, school, nursing/weaning, etc. I'm perfectly willing to allow them freedom and autonomy and prove themselves as resourceful and competent beings. But, when it is clear that they WANT my presence, guidance, opinion, help, etc. then *that* is what prevails.

And I take issue with articles like this b/c, *in general,* I think that people ought to spend MORE time with their children, not less.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I take flak for letting my kids have too much freedom to choose all sorts of things--TV, food, sleep, school, nursing/weaning, etc. I'm perfectly willing to allow them freedom and autonomy and prove themselves as resourceful and competent beings. But, when it is clear that they WANT my presence, guidance, opinion, help, etc. then *that* is what prevails.

Yes, that's my viewpoint, too.

Quote:

And I take issue with articles like this b/c, *in general,* I think that people ought to spend MORE time with their children, not less.
I see your point -- and I think the main problem is that other people are trying to dictate what each of us should be doing, rather than simply encouraging mothers to be tuned-in with their own children.

Moms who feel comfortable allowing more freedom from supervision get the "stinky eye" (even when in some cases they're actually supervising, but just not being obvious about it). Moms who stay close in response to their children's need and desire for their presence get slammed for hindering their kids' development of independence.

And of course, we're learning that some CPS-units are ready to swoop in (and some neighbors are itching to call them) whenever a child (up to age 7) is spotted playing in her yard without an adult. And some people write articles like this one, critiquing the 50% of parents of children aged 8-11, who still accompany them on any and all outdoor excursions.

The fact is, there may be many good reasons for letting a 7yo play in the yard while Mom's inside folding laundry or fixing dinner. And there may be equally good reasons for some 8-11 yo's to never step out the door without an adult.

That's why we're the parents. We know our kids, we know the reasons for what we do ... I wish everyone would just get interested enough in their own lives, that they'd stop caring so much about my (or your) parenting choices.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint* 
It's truly not "off" it's sometimes just personality/temperament. My 7 and 6 year olds come get me, my almost 4 year old just loves to seek out other nice mamas to comment on his cuteness. He loves talking to strangers (often to my dismay), and would totally prefer help off of the ladder from a random mama than from me.









oh my gosh. our kids must be related. Ava is just like that. water always tastes better if someone else's mom is helping her. Snacks from someone else's bag are always sweeter. and chatting with someone else's mom is always more interesting. And why walk all the way over to your mom to get her to tie your shoe when there is a perfectly good mom standing right beside you? not to mention she has never seen my sparkely, blingy, flowery super shoes that came with these beautiful pink barrettes and my sisters came with an etch a sketch that she never shares and we got them for Christmas. and did you notice my hair is the same pink as my barrettes. my mom said it was supposed to wash out but it didn't and I am five and have two sisters and my grandma calls me a chatter box. . . I don't know where she gets such silly ideas from . . I don't even know what that means but I am sure it isn't true . . and . . . and . . . .

yeah . . why would you walk 10 feet to mom when she knows everything about you already. besides you can talk her ear off when you get home.

also sometimes my kids will ask me to do something (like push them in the swing) and i will say no and they go ask someone else. I really hate going to the park but sometimes will go with some ground rules. for instance - I am not their entertainment committee and they can play as much as they want so long as they are playing and I get to sit and read or chat or whatever. there is plenty they can do on their own. also sometimes I tell them no swings because the swings are out of my range of vision. i also tell the little one no baby swings because she always gets stuck. but without fail some mom will think I am ignoring my kid and put her in them anyway at which point I have to spend the next 5 minutes dislodging her from them.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

lilyka, I have insight into what my 2.5 year old will be like. I swear she asks other people to do things for her as a sign of love. I just try to tell her that pulling her pants up is _my_ job. The other day at the grocery store, some woman complimented her and I thought she was going to stay with them all day. I mean, mommy compliments her all the time but here is a new person to flatter her vanity.









Oh, and I think I am somewhat in the middle. I try to let DD work things out but since she is young, I stand there and wait for her to ask me for help. She is somewhat timid with kids she doesn't know so she usually does ask for help and I oblige. She does play in the backyard by herself but I watch through the window and she never leaves the fenced yard. Ironically the only time she was hurt in the backyard, I was sitting on a bench supervising.

In the future, I can't imagine supervising her outside all the time (when she is older). OTOH, I won't do what both my mom and DH's mom did and kick her out until dinner. I think it is a fine line.


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## leafylady (Nov 19, 2001)

from the first paragraph...
"concluded that children who are let out to play unsupervised grow up to be healthier and more sociable. Healthier because, it was found, children without adults in tow burn up more calories in heightened energy, thus warding off obesity, and more sociable as a result of independence and self-reliance "

My kids get plenty of exercise within well defined boundaries. They're also very sociable, much more than myself. While they need playtime without my constant presence, I don't think they need to run all over the neighborhood unsupervised.


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## leafylady (Nov 19, 2001)

I also think that article has a ridiculously utopia-like view of the "good old days." I imagine that much like today, some parents were very involved, others were not (some by choice some by necessity.)


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leafylady* 

My kids get plenty of exercise within well defined boundaries. They're also very sociable, much more than myself. While they need playtime without my constant presence, I don't think they need to run all over the neighborhood unsupervised.

I also think that article has a ridiculously utopia-like view of the "good old days." I imagine that much like today, some parents were very involved, others were not (some by choice some by necessity.)

ITA with all of this. My mom was on her own all the time growing up because she didn't have anyone watching out for her or spending time with her.
My DS does a lot of cool stuff, we walk a lot of places, hike, ski, go cycling, travel, visit people, have visitors... I'm thinking the people being targeted in the article are those whose kids go from school to practice/class/afterschool daycare to video games to homework to TV to bed and get woken up early the next morning for more of the same. I'm not sure the key to raising healthy kids is that the kids are out of sight! There's a lot of gray area between micromanaging and not looking at your kids all day.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

What's interesting to me is how the writer took this study, which was about increased *activity levels* in unsupervised kids in particular *environments*, and turned it into a diatribe against parents and government-sponsored activity programs, as though this was somehow the parents' or the governments' fault.

This study appeared in an environmental design journal, Built Environment. It's purpose was to reinforce the idea that we need better spaces for kids to play, NOT to attack parents for failing to leave their kids alone. So the author took to task the UK government for over-organizing play spaces, and used to support his argument an environmental design article that proposes that local and government entities should create more of these types of spaces. LOL

As the study made clear, parents don't let their kids outside to play alone because many don't have access to open areas that are safe enough for parents to leave kids, or are safe enough for kids to *want* to hang out in.

Quote:

Allowing children to leave the house without an accompanying adult has significant benefits, but we need to design and build environments that children feel comfortable in and that parents feel confident to let them use on their own.
The idea that we should shove our kids out the door "for their own good" even if there is nowhere safe for them to go is ridiculous, and seems to me reflective of the current overly-prescriptive parenting approach to which we seem so prone nowadays.

Parenting is not about a series of things we *do to* our kids, it's about who we *are with* our kids.

As the study made clear, when kids have safe places to hang out, parents *are* more likely to let them do so independently.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

Interesting subject. Our neighborhood seems to have families who follow both extremes. We live in a small town (pop. 634), on a dead end street with only six houses. All of these homes have good-sized yards. One neighbor won't let her 5 and 3 1/2 year old boys off the front porch unless she is right there with them. A 7 year old boy from another family rides his bike all day.

We fall somewhere in the middle. I like for my kids to play outside by themselves. It gives them time for their imaginations to take hold. And it gives me a bit of time for myself! They have bounderies. When my three year old is outside by herself, she has to stay in our yard or on our driveway. When she is outside with her brother, they are allowed to go to the corner. They can knock on the 7 year old's door once to see if he can play.

The only time we've had to modify our rules was when a pack of wild dogs roamed the neighborhood. Noone spent any time outside until they caught the dogs.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

really what an excellant article, and so true. It makes me glad that i definelty give my kids "carefully crafted neglect"


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

i am surprised by the responses as i read back through. But what i got out of the article was "carefully crafted neglect". They aren't saying don't be involved in your children's lives at all, they are saying they need the oppurtunity to experience that sometimes. God we had that as kids, we had a whole street full of kids who hit the cul-de-sac, the woods and fields behind our houses the creek. and we had fun, we ran wild, we experienced diffrent roles and it's something we couldn't have done if our parents were right there with us. They weren't ignoring us or NOT being involved in our lives, because they were there when we needed them, when we ran in crying or upset they helped us. And not just our parents but most of the parents on the street. Someone else's mom wasn't afraid to tell you that you were out of line and you could be sure that your parent would hear about it. I think it is sad that things aren't mor elike this. It teaches you a lot more about the world and how to deal with it, then having mommy or daddy constantly there interfereing and protecting you. I think kids miss out on some improtant experiences by not having this.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I do not micromanage my kids lives, but I do supervise. No way I'd let my seven year old go off down the block, out of my sight alone. Did I at that age? Yes. (and back then, if I were down the block, other moms knew who I was and were looking out for me, how many of us even know our neighbors these days?) Was I ever molested by the nice old man next door? Yes again.True that stranger danger is a slim risk. But being molested by a relative, family friend or neighbor is much higher and can go on undetected for years. And if you dont know where your child is, you dont know that they ARENT in a neighbors home.I guess my ds started wanting to walk home from school by himself around nine or ten and I did let him at that age. At the park when he was little, I could sit on a bench and let him come to me when needed, I didnt "hover" but nor was I dropping him off and leaving him on his own for an hour or two. My favorite park to take him to was the site of rape of a little girl at one point. That was horrifying. Sure it only happened once in the ten years I lived there. But I dont want it to happen at all, so Im vigilant.So, yes, I recognize my childrens need for independance and I also recognize how my own issues play into things. Maybe I AM more paranoid becuase of what happened to me, but its not uncommon. Statistically speaking, one out of four girls and one out of six boys will be molested by a relative or family friend. It may not be the stranger you have to worry about, but little susies dad down the road, or whoever. Oh, and on playgrounds, if I left my two year old unsupervised Id probally get lynched by the other moms as we are in a hitting phase.....BTW, my oldest is 16 now and he leaves school on his own and walks all over, to friends homes, the local convinace store etc but we live in a small town now and he's 16. But he does not seem hanicapped in any way, socially or otherwise. He's very popular and very compentent. He wanted a guiena pig and looked online to get directions to build a cage, built it himself and then made them a diet plan based on guinea pigs specific needs...all of it without my help. So Im just not seeing that he became overly dependant on me just because I did not "neglect" him when young. He did play out in the yard alone at about five in our fenced yard where I could watch from the window and when he wanted to walk home from school alone at ten and I let him, I found out I was breaking the law as a child is suppose to be twelve before left alone. Hm. I was babysitting other peoples kids at that age! Again though, I would not leave my children with a 13 year old babysitter. Just me though.Oh yeah, I live in the country now and things like coyotes and bob cats are a real risk so I go out with my lil ones!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leafylady* 
I also think that article has a ridiculously utopia-like view of the "good old days."

I totally agree.

I hate the "here's what's wrong with kids/parents today....they need to be more like they way we were....." conversations.

I always think, well how the heck do you think we GOT here if you all were doing such a bang-up job?


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## lah7 (Dec 31, 2006)

I'd be mortified if my kids did some of the things I did when I was a child. Left to my own devices, I made some VERY unwise decisions. That being said, I was also afraid to tell my parents all the truth about what we wanted to do. Riding our bikes to the creek, trespassing through yards to get there? Probably not the best idea on its own, but far worse for none of us being willing to tell our parent what it is we wanted to do in the first place! I just sit here and imagine the physical injuries we could've had and no adults even knowing where to begin looking for us.

I do find myself a lot more lenient than many of my friends, but that's with the safety of a fully fenced back yard. It still feels odd to toss all 3 kids outside, especially when the youngest was 18 months old, and just watching through the windows and listening. And yet, the only crisis this entire summer happened while there were THREE adults in the yard, and we all watched and my 5 year old broke her arm.

I fully admit to being a playground yeller. The biggie is "Go DOWN the slide, not UP!" but that's because I don't want another child injured, or worse, experience the wrath of the other Mommies who are there. But I'm just as likely to tell my screaming, entirely over-dramatic 5 year old to get herself down from the situation she's just gotten herself into. I CAN tell the real deal from the fake cry, even if other parents can't. It's not that I'm neglecting her, really. I just know that this is the very same child who climbed on the roof of the playhouse, WITH the broken arm and when I said that it was a really bad idea, her response was "Mommy, it's okay, I won't break my other arm!" So believe me, she doesn't actually NEED the help getting down.

As the kids get older, I'll work more on letting them have freedom within our world, not just our home. This article is serving as a good tool for re-evaluating just how necessary certain aspects of freedom are.


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
It's been my experience over and over again, too.

Those kids don't seem healthier or more capable, it seems like Lord of the Flies. I'm not comfortable letting my children navigate those sorts of situations, and I know they're not comfortable trying to navigate them without me.


Yes!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yeah, if those were the sortsof intereactions I'd witnessed I'd feel the same way.

And within certain groups, (like my friend's extended family) I've seen the same thing. And we're all extremely comfortable letting the kids play together with very little supervision.

Unfortunately, what I've seen play out over and over again at the playground or in other groups, is that the way the kids "work it out" involves the bigger kid(s) overpowering the smaller one(s). I'm *really* uncomfortable with that dynamic--as are my kids. And the parents are talking about how important it is for the kids to be independent and how great they work it out for themselves--but I'm just not seeing that.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Whoah, whoah, whoah!








What I have a problem with is adults who are standing back and teaching their kids to "work it out" at the expense of others (namely my kids







).

I *really* have a problem with those parents (my SIL














acting like I'm insane when I'm following my kid around--when it's largely to protect him from their children.

And I don't so much resent the parents whose kids end up coming to me for a drink of water and help getting up a ladder and tying thier shoe, but I do start to wonder what's going on in the parent/child relationship when a kid who doesn't know me at all (or very well), will come to me vs. go to his/her parent. I think it's off.


I am beginning to think that maybe Monkey's Mom and I should have a playdate.









I am far less worried about stranger danger, than about one of his "friends" bashing in his head with a rock, or trying to hold his head underwater in a bucket.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
I had a LOT of freedom to roam and play out when I was younger. I remember going out to play by myself from the age of 5-6 onwards. But we're talking the late 1970's. There were predators even then though.

But that freedom that I had, I'm nervous about my son having that same level of freedom to roam and play out, because the world has changed a lot in the past 30 yrs.

Peace

I believe that violent/stranger related crime has actually decreased overall since the 1970's, but that our perception of the danger has increased tenfold (there are stats on this somewhere). The real dangers come from more vehicles on the road, and the fact that drivers seriously don't watch where they're going.

That said, the world *has* changed, and some areas are much more conducive to unsupervised play than others. At our current house (in the country) and last house (in a quiet suburb), I am/was able to let the boys play outside on their own with only a periodic peek out the door. This is true at Dh's parents' house (a mile off the main road, on 5 acres, with acres of farmland surrounding), and at their cabin (on 365 acres). At my mom's house and at the house we had when we first married and ds#1 and #2 were babes, it is/was impossible -- the vehicles fly past at unbelievable speeds (including the UPS/Fed Ex trucks), someone is always coming or going, and the neighbors themselves are the kind you often see featured on COPS or the evening news. To let the boys out unsupervised under *those* conditions would be neglectful, imo.

The age and maturity of the children involved plays a big part, too, but even teenagers/adults are susceptible to certain dangers. We shouldn't stay inside, or never let our children explore, but we do have to understand that not everyone has the same options as everyone else. Of course, I do know people who won't let their 5-8 year old children out in their own fenced back yards without an adult -- even when the adults can look out the window and see what's going on. That's extreme to me, but I still like to give the parents the benefit of the doubt.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I totally agree.

I hate the "here's what's wrong with kids/parents today....they need to be more like they way we were....." conversations.

I always think, well how the heck do you think we GOT here if you all were doing such a bang-up job?

















OMG, that's so true, and I think it all the time; if everything was so darn great before and everyone had such a handle on things in the "good old days", then why are so many things screwed up now? Seriously.

I also hate the argument that it was good enough for us and we survived and all that -- it discounts all the people who *aren't* here because of those very practices, and all of the people who quietly survived certain atrocities of being left on their own.

That said, I do think that overall, children need more freedom to do their own things. I see so many parents micromanaging their children's every move and activity. We experienced it firsthand with Dh's parents over this holiday -- egad, the boys couldn't make a move without someone commenting on it. By the end, the boys and Dh and I were so ready to get home and out of their watchful sight. Ironically, Dh had A LOT of personal freedom growing up.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
I believe that violent/stranger related crime has actually decreased overall since the 1970's, but that our perception of the danger has increased tenfold (there are stats on this somewhere). The real dangers come from more vehicles on the road, and the fact that drivers seriously don't watch where they're going.

I'm personally about 1000X more paranoid about cars than I've ever been about strangers...

DD got out a year or so ago. We'd let her out to play on our patio (completely surrounded by a fence about 6 ft. high), and she was being very quiet. It turned out that when ds1 and his friend had gone out, they hadn't closed the gate behind them, and dd had slipped out to find them. It was just starting to get dark and I freaked. I was worried about the river near our place, and about the two busy roads that are very close to us...strangers barely crossed my mind.

I found ds1 and sent him to check on area while dh and I were going in two other directions. I figured I'd check by the river, then come back and call the police if she hadn't been found. As I was coming back, I heard ds1 yell, "I've got her, mom". He caught up with me and told me that "two older men" had brought her to him.

And, this is where the media comes in. My first thought was "I'm so lucky those men weren't creeps" - and then I really thought about it. We weren't lucky. Lucky is when you _beat the odds_ in a good way. Unlucky is when you beat the odds in a bad way. The vast majority of people out there, on finding a 3 year old wandering around, wouldn't want to hurt the child - they'd want to help her/him find her/his parents. We weren't "lucky" that these two men were decent people...we simply weren't so unlucky as to have a pervert find her. The odds were that if someone found her, it was going to be a decent person. Even though I try to resist it, there really is a media-created tendency to believe that every other person on the street is a dangerous pedophile, just waiting to leap on our children...and it's just not true.

I'm awfully glad she didn't wander into the street or the river, though...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
As I was coming back, I heard ds1 yell, "I've got her, mom". He caught up with me and told me that "two older men" had brought her to him.

And, this is where the media comes in. My first thought was "I'm so lucky those men weren't creeps" - and then I really thought about it. We weren't lucky. Lucky is when you _beat the odds_ in a good way. Unlucky is when you beat the odds in a bad way. The vast majority of people out there, on finding a 3 year old wandering around, wouldn't want to hurt the child - they'd want to help her/him find her/his parents. We weren't "lucky" that these two men were decent people...we simply weren't so unlucky as to have a pervert find her. *The odds were that if someone found her, it was going to be a decent person.* Even though I try to resist it, there really is a media-created tendency to believe that every other person on the street is a dangerous pedophile, just waiting to leap on our children...and it's just not true.

Bolding mine. You make such a good point: I agree with your whole post.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Love this post and am printing info from that link for my sons step mom, who thinks I am an absolute FREAK for letting him, an almost 14yo, skate around town with his gang of friends/skaters.







Heaven forbid they cross the road!!! Ds is so sociable and has learned so many skills from these boys and I love all the boys like they are my own sons, plus they have houses scattered over town so I know they stop by someones house to drink water or eat something and they are off again. Thank heavens for cell phones though!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

What I don't get is keeping kids so close at a late age 12-14-16, that they never learn to get in a little trouble and a few scraps and grow up and mature. If a 14 can't walk out to a mall or playground with their friends without adult supervision, what happens just 4 short years later, when they go to university in another state and need to be completely responsible for themselves, food, shelter, clothing, studies, balancing their checkbook, and dealing with all sorts of other kids, and adults, all strangers, from different cultures, backgrounds, with various ideas, in all sorts of social circumstances? That sounds like a huge jump to me, and a shaky one.

My kids are only 1 and 3. But I have let my 3 yo play in the backyard by himself many a time, just looking out the window every once in a while. At his age I am concerned with the normal trip or fall or him deciding to do something unsafe (piling up rocks and then trying to jump on them....), not about the one in a million pervert roaming the world. Looks like I am headed down the path of "wild free-roaming" Kids. I'd rather do that, gently giving more and more freedom, over time, then lock them up and then suddenly let them out on the world at 18 and just hope everything turns out ok.


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## SquibsNCrackers (Oct 21, 2005)

Isn't that what MDC is for? To support parents in scoring high on that "benign neglect" meter?







: Gosh, it sure works for me!
















I admit I'm notorious for laughing at my own jokes. And I can see this is no laughing matter.







:


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
And it's interesting to hear how the kids respond to our involvement--"You guys are the *cool* parents--you're always playing with us!" or asking for our help or involvement even when their parents ARE right there later. It just starts to get to the point where I'm like, "Dear lord, where are YOUR parents?" And the parents are talking about how important it is for the kids to be independent and how great they work it out for themselves--but I'm just not seeing that.

Maybe it's just the kids you're around. When I was growing up, I hated parents who hovered. I had a friend whose house no one would go to because her mom always wanted to play with us (or sit and chitchat as we got older). Sometimes that's okay, but it can be overbearing. At some point, we were all saying, "I wish A's mom would get a life!" We were great kids - excellent grades, athletes, musicians, artists. We didn't so much as get detention, so it really was overkill.

We're firm believers in allowing independence because of research on how it influences intellectual development. That's the guiding principle of our decisions. We play a good bit with DS (and obviously join in if asked), but we don't believe in solving problems for him if he's capable of solving them himself, even with a little struggle. When I see parents hovering and problem-solving at the playground, they usually seem to be causing more problems than they're solving. If you want to follow your own kid around, then that's okay, but those parents usually seem to step in with all of the children.

I allow my almost 3-year-old a good bit of latitude in dealing with conflict. Hitting, shoving, and other physical retribution is not okay, but I don't have a problem with children discussing (or arguing) over a toy or piece of equipment as long as those children are generally in the same age/ability group. I think it's valuable and must be learned, but some parents want to step into those conflicts immediately and start making a decision about who gets to use the equipment first, etc. Just back off and see if they can figure it out. They usually can without anyone getting hurt (physical or otherwise).


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Maybe it's just the kids you're around. When I was growing up, I hated parents who hovered. I had a friend whose house no one would go to because her mom always wanted to play with us (or sit and chitchat as we got older). Sometimes that's okay, but it can be overbearing. At some point, we were all saying, "I wish A's mom would get a life!" We were great kids - excellent grades, athletes, musicians, artists. We didn't so much as get detention, so it really was overkill.

Well, I'm thinking about several different groups across many ages, so I dunno...the only kids who seem to resent it are a few kids who are quite attached to the "let's exclude someone 'til they cry" game.

Over Thanksgiving my husband was pig-piled on by a group of 6-10 yr. old girls and had several different wrestling sessions with them, I spent time helping the kids find funny videos on YouTube, we played board games with them, got out Polly Pockets from storage for them, and so on. It's just one example of how we often happen to be the rare adults who venture into the kids' "area" and the kids seem entirely surprised, receptive, and grateful.

And my kids ARE 6 and 2--so it's hardly hitting the creepy-mom-hanging-out-with-my-teen-boys stage, you know.

And it's as much to help my kids deal as it is to prevent my 2 yr. old from leading with his fists on unwitting playmates. My six year old went through a years-long hitting stage, so I was really indoctrinated into hawking him to protect other kids and offer him alternative strategies. He no longer hits, and is quite adept at mediating conflicts and offering solutions. But, he still wants me close by often times.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
We're firm believers in allowing independence because of research on how it influences intellectual development. That's the guiding principle of our decisions.

Yeah, I'm less concerned about research and more concerned about my kids--their needs guide my decisions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
...but some parents want to step into those conflicts immediately and start making a decision about who gets to use the equipment first, etc. Just back off and see if they can figure it out. They usually can without anyone getting hurt (physical or otherwise).

FTR, that isn't the sort of "stepping in" that I do. I'm very much in the background--offering a hand, a smile, or a "try this" when one of my kids runs into a situation where he's stuck. I'm not interjecting, dictating, making decisions, or otherwise "interfering" with the kids--unless it's obvious "bullying" or coming to blows.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I am a big proponent of letting kids play on their own when possible.

but, that article is SO onesided and ethnocentric it's ridiculous.

How about the following:
1. What if the true meaning is that the way parents control children's play is the problem, not necessarily letting them play without parents around? Perhaps the problem is that adults encourage children to play with certain toys. Or adults tend to interfere in social interaction. It may not be the presence of adults, but simply the way they are currently told to interact with kids that is the problem.
2. There is no possible way to measure kids being "healthier" simply because they play without adults around more. It's just someone's opinion. It's very en vogue right now to whine and moan about how overprotective today's parents are.
3. Even if the article is true (and I do personally feel that unsupervised play time is important), writing an article is NOT going to counteract the constant onslaught of media brainwashing that us parents are subject to. Even if I *know* a certain situation isn't really dangerous, but the media has just brainwashed me, overcoming that is incredibly hard.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMom* 
What if the true meaning is that the way parents control children's play is the problem, not necessarily letting them play without parents around?

I think this is very likely true.

I, for one, haven't felt comfortable enough to send my children out to roam the neighborhood without me -- nor have they expressed a desire to do this.

My children are only slightly older than Monkey's mom's -- and of course the article's highlighting the 8-11 age group. This may be creating some misunderstanding -- I'm especially thinking of the current interchange between BrandiRhoades and Monkey's mom.

My oldest is 7, she'll be 8 in April -- and I do see some shift in how much she requires and wants my presence when she's playing with her friends. When she has friends over, they love to spend hours playing in her room, and they keep the door shut because our almost 3yo isn't quite at the stage of respecting other people's games and projects (meaning she's liable to tear stuff up, and knock stuff down, that's important to them).

Even though the door's shut, I do periodically pop in to check on them, offer snacks, etcetera. And sometimes they need a little help from me to resolve conflicts -- but they need me way less than they did a couple of years ago.

Dd no longer seems to feel a need or desire for me to "join in" when she's playing with her friends -- but of course when they're not here, we play together A LOT. So I don't exactly feel "dissed" or anything.

I'm sure that as dd grows, I'll be doing less "popping in" to her room when she has friends over. Right now, no one seems annoyed or overwhelmed by the extent of my involvement.

About the freedom to roam, I'm not sure how that'll work out for us. As I've said, there's currently no desire on the part of my children to leave home without me or their daddy with them. I think that in the past, most children "roamed" in groups.

For instance, the author of the article talked about how *a group* of 9yo girls can totally dis a flasher. There was no mention about the difference between *a group* seeing this kind of thing, and a *lone 9yo* suddenly being faced with a man exposing himself.

I think those are two very different situations, and unfortunately, as people become more self-contained in their homes and disconnected from neighbors, and as scheduling increases, the latter scenario seems more likely than the former -- simply because it doesn't seem likely that my 8-11yo is going to be able to find a whole group of 8-11yo girls in our neighborhood, who are all going to be available at the same time, to go roaming en masse.

So it seems likely that our children will continue doing most of their branching out under dh's or my watchful eye. The key is for dh and me to learn the art of unobtrusive supervision. Sigh. They may never get to dis a flasher (but then I never got to, either -- not 'til I was 25 -- even though I got to do lots of roaming as a kid), but hopefully they'll still get plenty of opportunity for other kinds of skill-building.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
... as people become more self-contained in their homes and disconnected from neighbors, and as scheduling increases, the latter scenario seems more likely than the former -- simply because it doesn't seem likely that my 8-11yo is going to be able to find a whole group of 8-11yo girls in our neighborhood, who are all going to be available at the same time, to go roaming en masse..

Excellent points.

I have to say, one reason why we picked our neighborhood was because there are sidewalks and TONS of kids - and lots of people who are here during the day.

I personally know of 6 boys in DS1s age group within a 5 minute walk of our house on quiet residential streets/sidewalks. I feel a lot better about letting him out to play with his friends (when he gets older, he is too young now) in this specific environment.

Even though in my earlier post, I came down on the "unsupervised play" side, I do want to say that the vast majority of time, I am there, but in the background. If my boys want to play outside, I am outside too, doing gardening, reading a book, etc.

Even if I am inside, I will be checking every 15 minutes or making sure I can hear what is going on. And I never let my 2 year old be outside without an adult, unless he is on our deck, which is completely enclosed and locked, looking onto floor to ceiling windows/french doors from our dining room. My desk also has an enormous picture window which overlooks the entire front garden, so if my 4 year old is in the front, I can see him 95% of the time.

Personally, I think if anyone from our county tried to argue my kids were unsupervised in their own garden, they'd have a hard time.

I am not of the "send 'em out at 10am and don't let 'em back in until dinner time" kind of person - and honestly, I don't know any parents like this any more.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

This is a UK article and the context in which it was written may be unknown those of you in the US.

Some people believe that our government is hell bent on removing parenting from the parent and moving it to the state. Our 2 year olds are to be subject to a curriculum with targets and assessment of their skills if they attend nursery classes, schools now offer 'wrap-around care' from 8am to 6pm' so that more mothers can get back to work, our older children are tested and tested to provide data for league tables and show 'value added' by the school.

There is a feeling of intrusion by the state in to many areas of of our children's lives and this micro-management and control are now driving a rebellion of sorts, hence this article and others like it.


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## Olerica (Nov 19, 2007)

This has been my favorite discussion on MDC. I think quite a bit about my child hood (and my DH's) and how we want to raise our (eventual) children.

We're both children of the 70's and were allowed to roam within reason. We always asked permission to go and knew when to be back.

My summers were spent at the lake where my grandparents summered. We roamed freely there - even in the water. By the first grade, I could out swim many of the neighborhood adults, so it was considered ok. I knew the adults too. We were introduced and re-introduced during grandma's daily walk up and down the beach. I viewed most of these people as family, after a fashion and there was no question that they would get after us if we did anything that we shouldn't (and fear of that made us NOT do anything we shouldn't).

I e-mailed the link to the article to DH and he said:

"Kids need a balance between parent involvement and self development. Without unconditional love demonstrated through parent involvement and giving "permission" to act without the loss of love, children become afraid to take chances and explore reality. Without alone time to figure out the world, children do not develop the mechanism for cooping with the reality that they don't need permission to act but that there are consequences not always within their control."

Man, he's so much more elloquent than me. Makes me glad that I won't be the only parent. I hope that when we are parents that I can somehow foster the same community relationship that my grandmother did - up and down the beach.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Olerica, I'm so happy for you! It's not many couples who so thoroughly discuss these issues before having children. I think you're off to a great start.


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## Olerica (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Over Thanksgiving my husband was pig-piled on by a group of 6-10 yr. old girls and had several different wrestling sessions with them, I spent time helping the kids find funny videos on YouTube, we played board games with them, got out Polly Pockets from storage for them, and so on. It's just one example of how we often happen to be the rare adults who venture into the kids' "area" and the kids seem entirely surprised, receptive, and grateful.

I think the kids are grateful. I don't know the situation with the parents/kids above, but this happens to DH regularly. He is a big bear of a man and they love to use him as a jungle gym.

I think they love him because he 1) plays with them - imho sometimes too roughly but never dangerously 2) has boundries and 3) stops playing with them after awhile to hang out with the adults.

I think kids want you to play WITH them and not just supervise what they do all of the time. I think your approach is awesome!


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## Felicitymom (Jul 28, 2004)

Yeah it seems to me that there are a lot of micro managing moms out there... some of our friends are so 'right there' to address every single move that is made by their child that it is actually no fun... I do understand that there are stages children go through and moms do know their kids, but most of the time I will let my 3 year old work things out with her friends.... a watchful eye nearby at first, but if playtime seems to be moving right along I will just stay within earshot. It seems to me that at this age 2 or 2.5 and up there is enough communication and enough 'experience' for children to get on without mommy being 'right there'. In fact more often than not I see mom's annoying and sabataging their children (without even realizing it). I say let the kids alone.

Also, I think in homes where both parents work and someone else cares for the child it is expected that one or both of the parents spend every other waking moment with their child... in this culture I think that guilt works on parents to be involved in every activity that their child is in outside of work time because that is the only time they really have... I don't completely get this as I SAH, but it makes sense that instead of dropping a child off for an activity on the weekend you would accompany them if you haven't spent anytime with them all week.... I think a tremendous amount of people fall into this catagory and aren't really micro managing or overbearing... they are simply tagging along.

N


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