# What do you do when you need instant obedience?



## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I know I've read here often enough that "obedience" shouldn't be expected of children, that their own desires and choices should be respected, that they need gentle guidance rather than firm rules. Etc.

But here's the thing I was just thinking about. If, for instance, I yell at my husband, "Quick! Grab that before it falls off the table!" he'll do it in a heartbeat. As adults, we know that certain types of "orders" need to be followed immediately, without question, even if they come from strangers. Orders like "Duck!" or "Get out of the way!" or "Help!" I don't think anyone here would be offended at being asked to respond instantly to that kind of demand.

So it seems wrong to me to say that I shouldn't be teaching my child to respond in the same way. If he is pushing something on the table and I see that it's about to cause a glass to fall off and break, I should be able to yell "Stop! You're going to knock that glass off!" and expect him to listen to me.

Now, he doesn't always listen to me, because he's 3. But I think it's reasonable in this kind of circumstance to remind him strongly that he HAS to listen to me when I tell him to do something. Thoughts?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

DD is 3.5 and we have yet to run into a situation where immediate obedience was required, honestly. We did do a lot of baby-proofing, though.

I don't think there is any way you can teach a child to immediately obey with 100% certainty. You can't ever rely on the child obeying in a dangerous situation no matter how well or what techniques you used to teach them. I think for a child, you or another adult have to be the one to respond immediately to dangerous situations, calling out a warning as you run over and telling them what they need to do and hoping the urgency in your voice doesn't cause them to freeze but instead causes them to react. Can't count on it, though.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I just went through this issue with my 3yo sister. We were in a very crowded riverfront parade for the 4th when I needed her to hop out of the stroller and climb onto the shuttle bus.

It was the kind of crowd where pausing will just sweep you away in an instant, and she was sitting in her stroller, arms crossed, asking "But, why? Why do I need to get out?"

Exasperating.


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## Kelly Jene (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know how it started, but I can just give my boys a look and they will react instantly. One time, my son reacted to a situation quickly and I asked him how he knew I needed him to do so, and he said "I saw the look on your face, I knew you needed me to." It was great. He said it's not an angry look, so it just works for us.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
I just went through this issue with my 3yo sister. We were in a very crowded riverfront parade for the 4th when I needed her to hop out of the stroller and climb onto the shuttle bus.

It was the kind of crowd where pausing will just sweep you away in an instant, and she was sitting in her stroller, arms crossed, asking "But, why? Why do I need to get out?"

Exasperating.

Apparently I have a specific tone, and when dd hears it she just knows. I would imagine this works because I don't generally raise my voice much, so when I do it means serious business.

I did have a problem when her father fed her a bunch of crap about how she had the right to question anything anyone (ie: me) ever told her to do (which in theory I get what he was saying, he just went about it sooo wrong, and I'd already had several conversations with her about what I imagine he was trying to get across) so it basically just led to the kind of situation I quoted above.







:


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

The only time I've really needed an instant reaction is when my 3yo bolts toward traffic. There have been times I've yelled "stop" and she just laughs and keeps running like its a game. It makes me insane. What I've done is make it a different kind of game. We practice yelling stop and seeing how fast she can stop and how still she can stand. She finds that somewhat fulfilling and hopefully when we really need her to stop she will. I find this "command" may be the only one I really need her to react to as it works in a number of different situations (don't touch the stove, don't climb the bookshelf, don't hit your brother, etc. can all be immediately addressed with "stop", followed by an explanation.)


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."
Our oldest knows that we only use those words when the situation is urgent or dangerous... and our younger DD is learning.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

when i've been in situations that required a quick reaction from my children - i usually respond without even thinking. for example, my son walked into the street where we live about a year back (it's not a neighborhood, but a main road) ....without thinking i screamed frantically and very loudly "DANIEL, NOOOO! COME HERE NOW!!!" i certainly didn't plan to scream at him like a drill seargent - it was honestly just the first reaction that flew out of mouth. i saw my son walking into the street & knew he was in danger. i could not grab him because he wasn't close enough, so i immediately yelled for him.... it was an instinct. likewise, even though we didn't prepare for that moment and my yelling - he knows me well obviously, & he could hear in my voice the urgency and need for obedience. i've been in so few of those instances though (thank god) but now that my kids are older, they understand safety a lot more and stay within the limits we've created. if it was a situation where i said "look out!" or "catch that before it falls" i'd say they may succeed or may not....but that would be true with an adult as well - that's why they're called accidents, yk?


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
Apparently I have a specific tone, and when dd hears it she just knows. I would imagine this works because I don't generally raise my voice much, so when I do it means serious business.

I did have a problem when her father fed her a bunch of crap about how she had the right to question anything anyone (ie: me) ever told her to do (which in theory I get what he was saying, he just went about it sooo wrong, and I'd already had several conversations with her about what I imagine he was trying to get across) so it basically just led to the kind of situation I quoted above.







:

Hahaha, I call that the mommy look. They will snap to attention with their mom, but we're still working on listening to older sis.







I think I've always taken it so easy with them (choosing very slow times for the park or museum for example) that stressful situations confuse them, such as the 4th of July parade.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, see your husband has had years of experience to tell him that "quick, that glass is falling" means "that glass is going to fall off the table and hit the floor, and most likely break, getting glass all over the floor, which is sharp and dangerous. Thus, I don't want that to happen."

But see, your husband doesn't have to process all of that, it's automatic - we don't want glasses to fall. Ditto for stopping at a street corner when someone shouts "Stop!" We know that means "Danger, there's a large vehicle coming that could hit and kill you!"

A 3 year old doesn't have that experience. So, they require more intervention and explanation.

In addition, 3 year olds have iffy impulse control - once they've got an action actually underway, it's harder for them to stop than it is an adult. They can sometimes, but not reliably. By the time they're 4-5 that's improved greatly. By the time they're between 7 and 25







, they learn to "see ahead" to the consequences of their actions, and infer what might happen in a split second.

And I agree that children of this age respond well to tone. I do have "this is an emergency" tone. I know it because it's caused random drivers on the street to stop when I yell "STOP!" at my kids when they're about to go into traffic!

One way to "build" impulse control is to play games that require children to use it. Red light/green light, "mother may I" and other games like that really help. Then if you don't overuse "STOP!" AND you have a child with decent impulse control they'll get it eventually. Our 7 year old is pretty good. Our 4 year old is decent, though not reliable enough for me to trust by herself all the time.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I know I've read here often enough that "obedience" shouldn't be expected of children, that their own desires and choices should be respected, that they need gentle guidance rather than firm rules. Etc....

in my opinion, it's not either-or it's both-and. i think children need both gentle guidance and firm rules.

one very important family rule is 'stop means stop.' you can teach *the stop rule* and then practice it with small things, kind of like 'red-light green-light.'

i've said this before: the stop rule probably saved my son's life. when he was 3, ds was about to dart in front of an on-coming car in a parking lot. he was about 15 feet from me and i yelled my son's name and STOP! he did just as the car slammed on the brakes.

peace.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."
Our oldest knows that we only use those words when the situation is urgent or dangerous... and our younger DD is learning.









:

Because I rarely use an urgent tone of voice or the like- when I DO dd is very aware. It's come up a lot lately now that I'm getting two in and out of the car. In that case I often say "FREEZE" to get her to stop and not step out in the parking lot.

-Angela


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
If, for instance, I yell at my husband, "Quick! Grab that before it falls off the table!" he'll do it in a heartbeat.
...
So it seems wrong to me to say that I shouldn't be teaching my child to respond in the same way. If he is pushing something on the table and I see that it's about to cause a glass to fall off and break, I should be able to yell "Stop! You're going to knock that glass off!" and expect him to listen to me.

Now, he doesn't always listen to me, because he's 3. But I think it's reasonable in this kind of circumstance to remind him strongly that he HAS to listen to me when I tell him to do something. Thoughts?

I think someone, like your husband, who's something older than three would _want_ to respond to a warning like that, because we generally avoid breaking things when we can. Your husband wouldn't 'grab that' because you've strongly reminded him that he _has_ to.

Likewise as your son gets older, I believe he will participate in that kind of 'quick thinking' communication. Why wouldn't he?

This doesn't strike me as a matter of obedience at all, more a life skills issue. Your husband isn't obeying you, he just knows how to respond to a warning to avoid an accident. I think you can foster life skills (like handling fragile things without braking them or responding quickly in a crisis) by guiding kids as they take as much responsibility as they can handle. And also, as others noted, by *not* demanding they live their lives like a constant game of Simon Says, but saving 'stop' for times they really need to stop.

For situations that would require instant obedience for safety (of people or important property) I put myself between DD and the problem in case she makes a dangerous move (or at minimum have an emergency backup plan.) No amount of strong reminding can make toddlers responsible for impulse control or quick thinking, IMO.


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

Quote:

Obedience
I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."
*exactly*.

the key is not to over-use The Tone (or The Look, or The Whatever). you have to use it only when you mean it. heck, my friggin' CAT knows when i mean business - because i don't ever use the tone unless i Mean It and i never use it when follow-through isn't warranted.

my experience is with kids i've nannied, and all of them have gotten the message without any conscious training on my part.

i also find that when *i'm* losing it for some reason (when the boys hit each other, for instance, or put themselves in danger - this really tweaks me) that my tone naturally becomes quieter (rather than louder) and more deadly. they know. "go upstairs right now to your room and wait for me [to get my own shit together so i can explain AGAIN why no one hits in this family]" delivered in the tone that comes to me in that moment is crystal clear. there's no room to misread me, really.


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## Mom2J (Oct 16, 2006)

I agree with the pp's about the emergency tone. DS is, by no stretch of the imaginataion, an obediant child. Once we were in a pretty empty mall, and he was wandering a few feet away from me. Everything was fine, until he bolted right towards a bunch of cement stairs! There were so many of them, he would have gotten VERY hurt if he would have fallen down them. I was watching him, and saw him do it, but knew he could fall before I caught up to him, so I screamed from someplace I didn't even know I had, and he FROZE! Actually, everyone within earshot froze. LOL I don't know where that voice came from, and I couldn't fake it if I tried, but it worked instantly.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I really think your ds will learn this naturally and it isn't anything that has to be taught. If you save that urgent tone for really urgent things, he'll recognize it in the same way your dh does - not as a need for obedience but as a need to help keep something bad from happening - and he'll respond in that way. But he won't at 3, I'm afraid. Maybe 4 though. My daughter picked up on that fairly early. If I say, "OH no!" she'll look for the problem and immediately try to help solve it with me without thinking, like another adult will.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I agree with Lynn that people learn to respond immediately to urgent requests as a result of experience. Your DH grabs a falling glass because he has had to deal with broken glass before, understands his responsibility to protect family members from broken glass, and doesn't want to pay for new possessions to replace broken things. You have to do a lot of explaining with little kids, and ask for help with cleaning up messes so the can begin to understand the rational behind being careful (though of course, I would not ask a 3 year old to help clean up broken glass!)

Your DH also has a quicker processing/reaction time than your three year does. Verbal and receptive abilities are still developing at three. He has to think about what your instructions mean, and he has to think for a minute in order to make a decision about whether or not to follow your directions. It takes longer to do this when you are three. (Heck, I know teenagers and adults who have difficulty processing requests and tend to respond too slowly to be helpful in emergency situations!)

I think the best way to encourage cooperation in children is to focus on trust as the foundation of teaching them discipline. Kids are more likely (longterm) to WANT to cooperate when they have learned to trust your judgement and your actions as generally beneficial to them.


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

i think you have a point op - and I wonder about that too.

I consider this sortof a natural responses thing... like I think ds should learn about anger by modeling how to saftly manage it... as oppose to stuffing it down and showing total, unnatural restraint.

So I say, act natural, and holler out a warning, "stop hot" if you must.

Like others have posted I thing DCs will learn tese things... It isn't really about obedience... this is about functioning safetly, and awarely in a group or society so it needs to be taught and demonstrated... over and over till they get it.

I guess if you are going about it the "gentle" way be prepared to let consequences happen, like cleaning up glass once in a while. They will learn eventually.


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## keilonwy (Dec 4, 2007)

I'm not a momma until December (so who knows how this will work!), but my DH and I are planning to follow the tack of reserving "No" for when the situation is dangerous and requires that kind of fast, unthinking obedience. Dr. Sears (who has become a guru of sorts for me) says that if you are treating your children with kindness and gentleness in all other interactions, the discrepancy in your voice when you're frightened is enough to halt them in their tracks.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *keilonwy* 
Dr. Sears (who has become a guru of sorts for me) says that if you are treating your children with kindness and gentleness in all other interactions, the discrepancy in your voice when you're frightened is enough to halt them in their tracks.

I think it's a good plan, but I urge anyone not depend on it in dangerous, high stakes situations. I'm confident Dr. Sears wouldn't guarantee that either for true danger.

My daughter doesn't hear 'stop' or even 'no' overly often and she is treated kindly and gently as a rule. And nonetheless, her 'emergency startle' adrenaline instinct (when many kids _would_ stop in their tracks) is at the moment, unfortunately, to take off running in the wrong direction. She has also done this in tense situations, where she senses danger, and then turns to see me walking or reaching toward her.

She's really not a 'disobedient' kid, and she's not trying to start trouble. This seems to be what her id tells her to do in those rare moments. I'm sure it will mature as she learns to understand herself and the world better, and I'm very sure nothing I have done or could have done (or not done) would have effected this gut reaction much, one way or the other. Toddlers are really kind of loose cannons in many ways, whether raised with extreme gentleness or extreme authoritarianism, I really think it's important to be aware of that.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

I get a certain pitch to my voice that gets their attention instantly. It's part and parcel of my yelling problem, though.


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

Well, the difference in my voice stops her, but it also makes her cry.

We had a "situation" in our oven when dd and I were standing right beside it - I opened it and the glass pan shattered, eveything fell to the bottom and started to catch on fire. So shards of glass and fire were coming out of the oven, and I told dd to go OUT of the room NOW and stay out until I told her to.

She happened to be in a stage where every response to a request was an immediate "No," so in this case I closed the oven, removed her from the room, told her to stay there in that deadly kind of voice, and dealt with the fire and glass.

We've also had the running away towards the road thing. I think that we need to practice stopping. She thinks it is funny not to stop. I suspect that because she can't see my face or hear my voice as well, she doesn't get those cues. Luckily, she rarely runs towards the road.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Well, in the situation with the falling glass, it's not such an "emergency." Very little children aren't going to have breakable glasses anyway, so the worst that will happen is a messy spill.

Nor am I overly concerned about the hot stove- his own hand is going to feel the heat of the stove as he approaches it and his instincts will make him pull away instantly.

The only real concerning situation I've been in has concerned traffic, for a child who was otherwise doing well listening and playing away from the street. I've always been pretty good about not letting a child roam free in a mall (stroller, sling, or harness for children not likely to stay safe) so that's never come up.

Just yelling "stop" is oftne ignored. Yelling "red light" is more likely to get a response, but lately that's been working less as DS doesn't always want to play that game. But "Childsname, car coming!" or even just "CAR COMING!!" seems to get him to stop in a way that "stop" never does.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Well, in the situation with the falling glass, it's not such an "emergency." Very little children aren't going to have breakable glasses anyway, so the worst that will happen is a messy spill.

But the real glasses that the adults use are easily in reach of a 3yo, and that's what I'm talking about.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Don't use things you don't want the kids to break, if they're at a really clumsy stage? We have plastic tumblers for outside that we've been using inside for pretty much as long as DD's been mobile. It's just easier than having glass shatter everywhere. it's part of the philosophy of not setting kids up to fail - we saccommodate.

Or adults need to be very careful about where they leave breakable things. The edge of a table is not a good place for a glass. Neither is a table with a table cloth on it.

You really can't expect the child to know the glass will 1) fall 2) break 3) make a mess 4) be potentially dngerous. So you need to take steps to remove the danger for the child.

DD's only 21 months, and we're working on the FREEZE! thing. Every couple of days, I play music, we dance around all goofy, and then I turn it off while loudly/firmly saying "FREEZE!" She giggles, arms akimbo. It doesn't really work yet in the house with the music everytime, so I know I can't rely on it outside the house, but I like to think I'm laying some groundwork. We live in a highly populated area relatively close to a busy street. I can't just head out with her without giving both she and I the reassuarance that she's safe and secure.

Running out into traffic is one instance where I see the need for obedience. Sorry, but about to knock a glass off a table isn't - to me that's more the fault of the parent/adult than the child.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
Apparently I have a specific tone, and when dd hears it she just knows. I would imagine this works because I don't generally raise my voice much, so when I do it means serious business...

Yes, this.

I'm surprised that this isn't true of every child. Doesn't your child recognize fear, concern, anxiety or anger in your voice? Mine has since she was a tiny baby. And she reacts instantly.

Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I'm surprised that this isn't true of every child. Doesn't your child recognize fear, concern, anxiety or anger in your voice? Mine has since she was a tiny baby. And she reacts instantly.

Yes, my child recognizes fear, concern, anxiety and anger in my voice. And she reacts instantly. Her gut reaction happens to be an unsafe one; she doesn't, when reacting from instinct, 'freeze' but rather 'bolts'.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?

This is beginning to get just the slightest bit irritating. Sometimes these things turn into: I guess I did something right (or maybe you did something wrong.) Maybe if you only raised your voice when it's really, really serious or maybe if you treated you child with kindness and gentleness in all interactions she could be counted on to instinctively freeze in a true emergency.

I'm not being defensive, but I think it's important to put out there: nothing is true of every child regardless of parenting. Children react -- to fear, to adrenaline, to rare shows of emergency -- differently. Particularly really young children, but at the same time so do adults. I truly think it's important not to assume the 'freeze' instinct will kick in for life and death situations.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
Children react -- to fear, to adrenaline, to rare shows of emergency -- differently. Particularly really young children, but at the same time so do adults. I truly think it's important not to assume the 'freeze' instinct will kick in for life and death situations.

This is a very important point. I think it comes down to- there is NO way to ensure that a child react appropriately when you need instant obedience. So the best thing to do is to do your best to avoid those situations.

When they come up (or something sort of dangerous, like the glass on the table...) then do your best and watch your child and learn from their reaction.

I've been using the "freeze" on dd lately often in empty, not truly dangerous, parking lots. I use this as an opportunity to discuss why parking lots are dangerous and why we must stay touching the car or mama while in them.

-Angela


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?

Maybe it's because you were lucky enough to get a child who's sensitive to the nuances in your tone, and it has nothing to do with your superior parenting skills?

My kid is tone-deaf both to music and emotions. Not a big surprise, since my husband is the same way. When Corbin was 2, if he saw me crying, he'd react by laughing at the funny faces I was making. I'm pretty sure he is just lacking in natural social talent, and is not a psychopath or anything.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
This is a very important point. I think it comes down to- there is NO way to ensure that a child react appropriately when you need instant obedience.

I agree with you on this point - you can't rely on it to the point of letting anyone's safety depend on it. I was thinking in my OP about expectations in the sense of "he knows he's expected to freeze when he hears the word 'Stop!'" rather than "I expect he will stop when I yell, so I let him run across the street ahead of me."


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I agree with you on this point - you can't rely on it to the point of letting anyone's safety depend on it. I was thinking in my OP about expectations in the sense of "he knows he's expected to freeze when he hears the word 'Stop!'" rather than "I expect he will stop when I yell, so I let him run across the street ahead of me."











And really, dd does that. Most kids want to please when it comes down to it and you just have to find what works for your kid. Some kids, tone of voice will do that. Other kids that doesn't click. For them it sometimes works to have a "code word" that you agree that you won't use unless it's *important* and they agree to obey first and ask questions later. Of course this is older than toddler age... but it often works well.

-Angela


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
... When Corbin was 2, if he saw me crying, he'd react by laughing at the funny faces I was making.

I'm not questioning your understanding of your son at all, you're the one who'd know, but I wanted to add that my daughter (and many, many toddlers I read about all the time) occasionally 'laughs' at seemingly inappropriate moments. Sometimes laughter is the nervous reaction to being ambivalent, confused and/or uncomfortable. Some adults do this, too -- the nervous giggle at inopportune times.

Someone above said their toddler laughs when she runs away, and my guess might be that this is also not exactly because it's funny to her as much as a unconscious response to the energy and tension and discomfort of the moment. I see that in DD sometimes when she knows she's made a mistake or doesn't know what to do.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
I'm not questioning your understanding of your son at all, you're the one who'd know, but I wanted to add that my daughter (and many, many toddlers I read about all the time) occasionally 'laughs' at seemingly inappropriate moments. Sometimes laughter is the nervous reaction to being ambivalent, confused and/or uncomfortable. Some adults do this, too -- the nervous giggle at inopportune times.

Oh, yeah, I know that, too - Corbin was different, you could tell he really didn't understand the difference. He started to get it around 2.5, I think, and would ask "are you sad, Mommy?" instead of thinking I was being silly.

I have also on rare occasions used an out-of-the-ordinary, scary-loud tone to yell at him (like the time he was inches away from pushing his baby brother to the floor when baby had a stick near his mouth that might have gotten shoved into his throat), and he doesn't seem to notice the difference.

Maybe a code word would work better for us, come to think of it.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
...He started to get it around 2.5, I think, and would ask "are you sad, Mommy?"...

That's so sweet when they do that, isn't it?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
...
I have also on rare occasions used an out-of-the-ordinary, scary-loud tone to yell at him (like the time he was inches away from pushing his baby brother to the floor when baby had a stick near his mouth that might have gotten shoved into his throat), and he doesn't seem to notice the difference.

Maybe a code word would work better for us, come to think of it.

My daughter is 6 months younger than your son Corbin, and she's not ready for a 'code word' yet. She has middle-of-the-road communication skills and would get it, but probably couldn't recall it instantly if she needed to.

In fact my understanding of my DD, at least at this young age, is that she's the kind of person that doesn't think well with someone startling her. Because she is definitely eager to please and doesn't typically try to 'test' or 'rebel' any more than any other child her age, but she also definitely does not freeze in an emergency. And we've played the games, and she loves them, too.

She also is the kind who jumps 6 inches if you come in the room and she's concentrating on something (she used to say "I scare you, Mama", reversing her pronouns.) I wonder if this -- responding quickly to urgent commands -- isn't ever going to be her forte, and rather she just needs a boundary until she's old enough to rely on her own senses and judgment. Some people just don't react well to someone yelling to them, no matter how well-intentioned the warning was.

In the mean time, my strategy is to allow her as much responsibility for herself as is possible, and work with her to understand and recognize safe limits. And it goes without saying that I am highly invested in her trust in me, which she does.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Hm, that's an interesting thought. Corbin is the kind who is totally oblivious to being yelled at. Too busy focusing on whatever he's doing. It gets frustrating when he's right on the edge of breaking something or whatever and I'm yelling "STOOOOOOOPPPPP!" and he doesn't seem to notice.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I had far more luck with the freaked-out *NO!!* when mine was a toddler, say 14/15 months or so than when she was either a tiny baby (when she'd look at me quizzically) or at 3 when she just ignores it. Three year olds don't listen until you mention cake.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes, this.

I'm surprised that this isn't true of every child. Doesn't your child recognize fear, concern, anxiety or anger in your voice? Mine has since she was a tiny baby. And she reacts instantly.

Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?

Or maybe you're exaggerating since you adopted her when she wasn't that tiny?









And no, "every child" doesn't react the same. I'd have liked you to see my DS1 from ages 3m to 2y, when he sobbed EVERY time someone else laughed. Even if it was DH or me. What baby is automatically afraid of laughter at 3m? I must've sounded too urgent when I laughed.


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## Ok (Feb 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I had far more luck with the freaked-out *NO!!* when mine was a toddler, say 14/15 months or so than when she was either a tiny baby (when she'd look at me quizzically) or at 3 when she just ignores it. Three year olds don't listen until you mention cake.


Cake... snort









Agree. 3yos who allowed to explore and focus on their own thoughts will often get lost. "Ou, shiny" and off they go. They have lost the baby fears of the unknown and are chasing dreams.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

3yos who allowed to explore and focus on their own thoughts will often get lost. "Ou, shiny" and off they go. They have lost the baby fears of the unknown and are chasing dreams.
Oh God, thank you for saying this! My DD "listened" when she was a year and a half, and stopped at 2ish. At 3, she thinks, "STOP!!!!!!!" means "SPRINT !!" It's a game to her and frustrating as heck to me. I always have to physically catch up her her to make her stop.

She's a bright, articulate girl, but really stubborn and spirited. The way to guarantee her to run is to *try* to stop her. It's scary - and so frustrating. I'm jealous of all of you whose kids just stop when you tell them to.

And FTR, she's been raised in a "yes" environment, and I've always limited "NO!" or "STOP!" for safety situations. I feel like I've followed the GD manual and it's not working.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:

_quote removed by moderator_

The tactics (raising your voice only when urgent) may be garden variety, but the practice of perfectly implementing the tactics (never raising your voice inappropriately out of frustration, anger, fatigue) is not.

While I can not defend raising my voice at times when there is no urgency, well, I'm human and I've done it. And I don't even tend toward yelling, but, sure, it has happened! I think that _is_ garden variety parenting.

I have often gotten stuck on this point in this forum: does GD parenting require _gd perfection_ to have a good outcome?


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
Everyone who has an easy first kid believes on some level that it's because they are perfect parents, and that if other people just did it their way, they would have easy children too. But experience usually shows that this isn't the whole story. Mia is extremely compliant and easy-going. Simon isn't. They have the same parents.

Yep. I was lucky enough to get the hard kid first. I can't imagine how insufferable I'd be if my Simon had been born first.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Three year olds don't listen until you mention cake.

So, when my 2.75 yo runs toward the street, I should yell "Come get some cake!"







I think that might actually work, but boy would he be mad if I didn't have any cake handy







:.

Anyhow, my oldest son's instinct is to run. He was a toddler who would take off as soon as his feet hit the ground. He spent a lot of time in a kid harness, because otherwise he would have gotten himself killed several times over. My youngest is a runner, too, though not nearly to the extent of DS1.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
And FTR, she's been raised in a "yes" environment, and I've always limited "NO!" or "STOP!" for safety situations. I feel like I've followed the GD manual and it's not working.

















It's working, see:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
She's a bright, articulate girl...

I have to challenge myself on my definition of 'working' to keep things in perspective.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
So, when my 2.75 yo runs toward the street, I should yell "Come get some cake!"









I'm thinking this is a great idea. "Would you like some cake?" alternated with "look, a doggie!"


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

We practice "Stop - FREEZE"... I use it with my DD (18mo) and with the kids I babysit (2yo twins, 4.5yo).

It's the 'only' thing I expect them to immediately obey... I only use it for matters of actual safety. I don't use it to stop them from making a mess (I don't really care about messes) - just when they are dong something dangerous. They have to stop and hold their hands out in front of them. There is NO arguing, NO negotiating, and NO delaying... It's 1 of 2 things I give timeouts for (to the 4.5yo - sometimes she thinks she 'knows' why I'm saying it - so she figured she can work around that.)

As DD gets older - it will be the same thing. It's non-negotiable. I'm happy to give a full explanation later of why I said it. But - this works on trust. I don't use it for little things. I don't use it when DD picks up my full water glass and I know she's going to spill it. So I'm hoping that if we actually need it to work - she'll trust that we have a good reason.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
So, when my 2.75 yo runs toward the street, I should yell "Come get some cake!"







I think that might actually work, but boy would he be mad if I didn't have any cake handy







:


hahahaha!!! i love this..









in urgent circumstances i have just grabbed my dd and restrained her. she doesn't pick up on tone - she has a sensory disorder - her brain doesn't discern from urgent to non urgent and most certainly not when we are out and about (too much stimuli to process). so yeah, i've scooped her up and restrained her in my arms in dangerous situations (parking lots etc). no yelling at or chastizing her, just keeping her safe in my arms till the danger passes. works for us right now. we were thinking of doing a safety belt thing but we know dd's not going to have any peice of it without a huge fight each and every time. *sigh*

as for the glass on the table incident - well we only do glass around here (even for toddlers) and we believe that glass will broken and lessons will be learnt. we don't use anything that isn't easily replacable either. if we are out and about and at another persons home where precious stuff may be, i kindly ask the person if it is ok to move the item out of the children's reach - more often than not they say yes.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 

I have often gotten stuck on this point in this forum: does GD parenting require _gd perfection_ to have a good outcome?

um, i hope not! i really, truly believe that parents are HUMAN (duh), and that making mistakes and being less than perfect is part of raising a child. i do apologize to my dc when i am a jerk, and i strive to be a good, caring mother. . . .but i fall short.
also, short of full out abuse or neglect, i honestly believe that loving/supporting your kids is the number one factor that affects their development. my kids and i are close, and we love each other very much. . . even though we are all less than nice to each other frequently. we forgive each other, and move on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Doesn't your child recognize fear, concern, anxiety or anger in your voice? Mine has since she was a tiny baby. And she reacts instantly.

Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?

i'll admit it- i yell. i have two kids- a very "spirited" 4 year old and a SN 2yo. pretty much daily, i lose it and yell at somebody. i am human, and so far my kids seem to have survived my less than perfect parenting skills.

and, they still seem to be able to sense my urgency when there is a *truly* dangerous or urgent situation.

eta- not to advocate yelling- i will be the first to admit (through experience!) that it is extremely ineffective!


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:

Doesn't your child recognize fear, concern, anxiety or anger in your voice? Mine has since she was a tiny baby. And she reacts instantly.

Maybe it's because I only raise my voice or sound urgent when it's really, really serious?
One of my kids used to bawl in terror every time people sang 'Happy Birthday'. I am thinking that he interpreted things a little bit differently than the rest of us.







Kids may recognise the serious nature of what we're talking about but how they will respond to that is completely up to them as individual human beings.


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## Kitsune6 (Mar 31, 2005)

I read this in one of the Sears books and it works for us. If the kids are in danger I make a loud gasping sound and they (mostly) immediately stop. It's that sound you make right before your kid takes a nasty spill. It works really well with my SN kid, in fact it's the only thing that makes him pause. Oh and he long ago desensitized me from making that sound involuntarily so he only hears it when I need him to freeze.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Easy goer, THANK YOU!! I really needed to hear that.

Lately it's been a barrage of "You really need to teach her to listen." (relatives - mostly my mom) I appreciate the support!! (before this thread is locked - which likely will be reeeeaaal soon)


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I'll start a spin-off (says the mom of a totally "disobedient" 3 year old!!







)


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
I'll start a spin-off (says the mom of a totally "disobedient" 3 year old!!







)


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
I'll start a spin-off (says the mom of a totally "disobedient" 3 year old!!







)









count me in, I've got FOUR wildly disobedient monsters and sometimes I even drop my veil of perfection and yell *gahsp!!*


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I beeped the car horn at them yesterday. (bag over head) We were in the garage and both were SCREAMING (random temper tantrums) while I was trying to get both buckled in. I lost it, reached over, and honked my horn. It was LOUD (and they both were shocked into forgetting about their individual fits.)

I felt really badly after. It wasn't good parenting, but I was so pushed to the limit.

I'm usually much calmer, but screaming in stereo rattles me


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We can choose a peaceful path.

Pat


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

*Generally* when I scream JAMES!!! STOP!!! at the top of my lungs with a voice full of fear and panic James will hault in his tracks...and he's uuber spirted/strong willed...the same tone of voice is wholely ineffective on my friends equally (if not more so) spirited, adventerus little boy

I say *generally* because there are those instances where he gets into the "Yeah, Ma...I am SO not going to listen to you today" moods so he will nearly get into the street in the 3 seconds I contemplate whether I want to give Aldria Shanken Baby Syndrome to chase after him.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Pat, how do you keep you cool all of the time? If I feel myself getting "heated" I usually say, "Mama needs a time-out" and I walk away and center myself. I wear an Ohm bracelet that I touch to give myself a physical reminder to be calm. But sometimes, I get rattled and I raise my voice - and I hate that. I don't ever want to be a yeller.

How to keep calm and never lose it? Tell me your secrets!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am not always calm. The "Parenting and Rage" thread has much of my process. It is a journey of self-care, self-awareness and self-control. I've found I've had to learn in that order. I'm still working on the self-control. Mostly, my thoughts create my experience. But, I can observe the consequences of choosing a more peaceful path. It helps. All of us.

Pat


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
I beeped the car horn at them yesterday. (bag over head) We were in the garage and both were SCREAMING (random temper tantrums) while I was trying to get both buckled in. I lost it, reached over, and honked my horn. It was LOUD (and they both were shocked into forgetting about their individual fits.)

I felt really badly after. It wasn't good parenting, but I was so pushed to the limit.

I'm usually much calmer, but screaming in stereo rattles me

















I think I just peed my pants!!!







Not that it's funny to loose our cool. But I got a funny mental picture of that and it's SO something I would do in one of my weaker, stressed out moments.








seriously though I think it does depend a lot on the kid. DD stops instantly when I give the emergency tone, always has. And DS does the wild animal, I'm running from you while laughing like a hyena thing if I look at him crooked!!!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I am not always calm. The "Parenting and Rage" thread has much of my process. It is a journey of self-care, self-awareness and self-control. I've found I've had to learn in that order. I'm still working on the self-control. Mostly, my thoughts create my experience. But, I can observe the consequences of choosing a more peaceful path. It helps. All of us.

How does a peaceful path affect the need to scream "stop!" in an emergency? I'm genuinely curious here. Surely, there's a difference between yelling at your kids in a punitive way, and yelling "watch out for that car!"


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Surely, there's a difference between yelling at your kids in a punitive way, and yelling "watch out for that car!"
I agree.

Pat


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

This thread has been a good read for me (even with the funny asides!) because as a reformed/sometimes slipped up yeller, I find my dd is a bit desensitized to my, um, bellowing. She's five, and she's fairly compliant to begin with, personallity wise, but maybe a word like 'freeze' would work better than 'stop for us.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

And you wondered why I always have cake about my person.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
I'm thinking this is a great idea. "Would you like some cake?" alternated with "look, a doggie!"









Ballerina!


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## milkmommie (Apr 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
And you wondered why I always have cake about my person.

Ballerina!

laughup
Mine would have to be "oh my, a princess wearing a chocolate tutu!!" That would get dd and ds in one fell swoop!!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Considering the way Corbin miraculously perks up when anyone whispers "chocolate" three rooms away, maybe there's something to this this "dessert as code word" idea.







: "Stop!! ... I mean ... chocolate!!"


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

This thread is being returned.

I have removed all User Agreement Posts and and any posts referencing them.

Further UAV's will result in the thread being permanently removed.

Allgirls


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Nor am I overly concerned about the hot stove- his own hand is going to feel the heat of the stove as he approaches it and his instincts will make him pull away instantly.

I had a piano teacher who when he was 4 yo, put his hand flat on an iron--FOUR TIMES.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ok* 
Cake... snort









Agree. 3yos who allowed to explore and focus on their own thoughts will often get lost. "Ou, shiny" and off they go. They have lost the baby fears of the unknown and are chasing dreams.

Heh, baby fears, what baby fears? My 8 mo would have crawled off at Banres and Noble. No fear at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
Yep. I was lucky enough to get the hard kid first. I can't imagine how insufferable I'd be if my Simon had been born first.

Yeah, you'd be terrible.







Like I am.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
So, when my 2.75 yo runs toward the street, I should yell "Come get some cake!"







I think that might actually work, but boy would he be mad if I didn't have any cake handy







:.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kitsune6* 
I read this in one of the Sears books and it works for us. If the kids are in danger I make a loud gasping sound and they (mostly) immediately stop. It's that sound you make right before your kid takes a nasty spill. It works really well with my SN kid, in fact it's the only thing that makes him pause. Oh and he long ago desensitized me from making that sound involuntarily so he only hears it when I need him to freeze.

This is interesting! I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama* 
I beeped the car horn at them yesterday. (bag over head) We were in the garage and both were SCREAMING (random temper tantrums) while I was trying to get both buckled in. I lost it, reached over, and honked my horn. It was LOUD (and they both were shocked into forgetting about their individual fits.)

I felt really badly after. It wasn't good parenting, but I was so pushed to the limit.

Why is this bad? I mean it makes sense to me. It interrupts them to stop, when they can't control stopping, and it didn't hurt them, just startled them, but then they were distracted and able to get control of themselves, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
Considering the way Corbin miraculously perks up when anyone whispers "chocolate" three rooms away, maybe there's something to this this "dessert as code word" idea.







: "Stop!! ... I mean ... chocolate!!"

Heh, can I try that?


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

They know when something is an emergency from your tone and emotions. They are hardwired to be self-protective and will listen to you. You don't have to teach that.


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## cpop (May 3, 2006)

I know kids are different and this may not work with all kids, but with my kids I have found that if you reserve 'that tone of voice' for really only the most urgent situations they will respond to that. Since I never raise my voice (not tooting my own horn, just not a yeller) the kids know that when I should "NO!" loudly there is a very good reason (for example they are reaching for an unprotected electrical outlet). They usually start crying and get frightened but then I guess that is sort of the point. I mean I want them to know that I think touching outlets with their fingers is something dangerous that frightens me.
I think they are kind of programed to react to fear in your voice. But again, not all kids are the same, and I am sure there are kids who wouldn't react, but it works for us.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Count me as another whose child reacts inconsistently to The Tone. Sometimes it works. Other times not so much. Because I know she is not consistently under good "voice control" (sorry to use a dog training term!) I frankly just keep her a lot closer to me than I notice many other parents do at this age, if we are anywhere that could be risky (such as near traffic or in a large crowd). For instance, at 4.5, I still don't allow her to walk on our street (no sidewalks, but fairly quiet) without holding my hand. Maybe this is overprotective, but I know my child and she has poor impulse control.

I also used a kid leash between the ages of 1-2.5. It's no longer justified and would humiliate her at this age, but I consider it a good tool for toddlers who don't respond as quickly.

It has to be said again and again: children are different. In the same family, even, I've seen kids who cower and run to mom at the slightest sign of The Tone and kids who run the other way or defy.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggirayne* 
I had a piano teacher who when he was 4 yo, put his hand flat on an iron--FOUR TIMES.









And he became a talented pianist. Maybe burning helped the process.









I have a daughter who doesn't react very well to the The Tone either. Either it prompts her to do it more quickly, or I practically have to get to the spit flying out of my mouth face contorted level of yelling Stop, and she stops, then collapses in a sobbing mess. But both times she is very unhappy. She takes the fact that I don't like what she is going to do as proof that she should follow through with it just to make sure I still love her even if she does something I hate. Then if I am not happy about it, she feels justified in expressing just how mean I am, how bad I am and how she hates me and wants to run away. It's not a pretty sight.


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