# I witnessed a mom purposely slam into her child with a shopping cart.



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Not that this is an excuse, but the child was being extremely annoying. Normally, that's when I would suggest leaving the store... not bashing her with a shopping cart.

Mom was kinda young-ish, and clearly seemed to be losing her grip this morning. Perhaps she just doesn't have the right tools to deal with her daughter. But, still.... with absolutely NO clue how to handle a child, I cannot believe she would even think of purposely doing that.

The girl was about six. Very cute. Dressed perfectly. But, she was whiny and mouthy to the mom. At one point, mom yanked her arm a little, and when the daughter yelled a dramatic "Ow you pulled my arm".. mom looked around, then loudly said "I'm trying to teach you a lesson, how do you think it feels?"

Then a moment later, she climbed into a dryer. (Lowes in the appliance area) and mom said *but, didn't sound serious to me either* "Come out... get out... do we need to go home? Do, I need to call grandma to come get you? Get out, come out...." She never came out. So, the sales lady opened the dryer and told her firmly to get out. She came out, but broke the door of the dryer on the way out. (yes, even I was mad at this child by this point) But, when the sales lady went back to the desk area, the mom took her cart and slammed it into her daughter. It hit the backs of her feet, knocking her forward and her head snapped backwards. The screaming was horrendous. I didn't notice any obvious injuries, but the mom tossed the child into the cart and got her cell phone out, made a call, and she pushed the cart outside.

I was still looking at washers when the woman came back a few minutes later without the child. (i'd have gone home and never returned.. there's no way anybody could need a washer and dryer that bad)

But, I had NO idea what to do. What should I have done? On one hand, I understood why mom was so angry, but to me, that was such an overreaction to a bad situation. The sales lady must have called security, because there was a security guy and a manager loitering around for a while after that, but they never approached the lady. I do wonder though, was security going to make the child leave the store? Or were they there to check out possible abuse?


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## EmilyVorpe (Apr 26, 2007)

Thats so sad. I feel for that little girl. My son is....like the little girl...its hard to get him to listen and follow directions and public places are no different for him. We really limit our outings with him to parks and tend to not do any sort of shopping with him unless its alone without our other kids. That said....I would never. ever. ever. purposely do that to my child. Or anyone. Even if I had to take a break outside and cry with the child, thats better than hurting them.
I would have gone to the customer service desk and asked for the police to be called. I may be over dramatic, but Id rather be over dramatic and an innocent child be spared the hurt.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

How sad. OP,I'm not sure there was anything you could have done or if the police could have done anything. The mom likely would have said it was an accident.

I think it's important for parents to acknowledge when they need a break and also have consistent discipline with their children. I don't know the moms full story but it sounds like maybe her daughter gets away with a lot and when the mom decides she's serious about wanting her to listen, the little girl doesn't. I understand being annoyed but not pushing a cart into a kid on purpose









Sorry you had to witness that.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh wow. I would have alerted someone in the store- especially after the mom left and returned without the child. I'm not sure where you live, but we are in a heat wave right now and I would have been worried she left the girl in a hot car.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Oh wow. I would have alerted someone in the store- especially after the mom left and returned without the child. I'm not sure where you live, but we are in a heat wave right now and I would have been worried she left the girl in a hot car.

As she called someone before she left, I'd be more likely to assume she got someone to come and take the little girl.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Oh wow. I would have alerted someone in the store- especially after the mom left and returned without the child. I'm not sure where you live, but we are in a heat wave right now and I would have been worried she left the girl in a hot car.

No, she wouldn't do that. It's 114 degrees here today. We live in the desert, you never purposely leave anything in your car. I'm thinking she finally did call Grandma.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Not that this is an excuse, but the child was being extremely annoying. Normally, that's when I would suggest leaving the store... not bashing her with a shopping cart.

Mom was kinda young-ish, and clearly seemed to be losing her grip this morning. Perhaps she just doesn't have the right tools to deal with her daughter. But, still.... with absolutely NO clue how to handle a child, I cannot believe she would even think of purposely doing that.

The girl was about six. Very cute. Dressed perfectly. But, she was whiny and mouthy to the mom. At one point, mom yanked her arm a little, and when the daughter yelled a dramatic "Ow you pulled my arm".. mom looked around, then loudly said "I'm trying to teach you a lesson, how do you think it feels?"

Then a moment later, she climbed into a dryer. (Lowes in the appliance area) and mom said *but, didn't sound serious to me either* "Come out... get out... do we need to go home? Do, I need to call grandma to come get you? Get out, come out...." She never came out. So, the sales lady opened the dryer and told her firmly to get out. She came out, but broke the door of the dryer on the way out. (yes, even I was mad at this child by this point) But, when the sales lady went back to the desk area, the mom took her cart and slammed it into her daughter. It hit the backs of her feet, knocking her forward and her head snapped backwards. The screaming was horrendous. I didn't notice any obvious injuries, but the mom tossed the child into the cart and got her cell phone out, made a call, and she pushed the cart outside.

I was still looking at washers when the woman came back a few minutes later without the child. (i'd have gone home and never returned.. there's no way anybody could need a washer and dryer that bad)

But, I had NO idea what to do. What should I have done? On one hand, I understood why mom was so angry, but to me, that was such an overreaction to a bad situation. The sales lady must have called security, because there was a security guy and a manager loitering around for a while after that, but they never approached the lady. I do wonder though, was security going to make the child leave the store? Or were they there to check out possible abuse?

I am sorry. I do not understand why even you were mad at the child. I do not understand why the mom was so mad at the child. I would have intervened wisely, without shaming the mom persay, and in a helpful manner.


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## Eyelet (Feb 9, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotmamacita* 
I am sorry. I do not understand why even you were mad at the child. I do not understand why the mom was so mad at the child. I would have intervened wisely, without shaming the mom persay, and in a helpful manner.

I didn't get the impression that the OP is mad at the child. I got that she's saying the child was being extremely disruptive and defiant. I can guess the mother was upset for the same reason, and for breaking the dryer door.

But, that is horrendous that she would knock the child over with a cart. OMG. When you get to that point as a parent, it's clearly time to take a step back and regroup.


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## MissMaegie'sMama (Jul 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jaki* 
I didn't get the impression that the OP is mad at the child. I got that she's saying the child was being extremely disruptive and defiant. I can guess the mother was upset for the same reason, and for breaking the dryer door.

But, that is horrendous that she would knock the child over with a cart. OMG. *When you get to that point as a parent, it's clearly time to take a step back and regroup.*

I think the mom did take a step back, but a moment too late. She should have made the call before she hit her daughter with the cart.









I have been on the brink a few times like that myself, and I always decide there's nothing I need in the world badly enough to endure a shopping trip like the one that mom was having with her daughter. I feel as sorry for the mom as I do for her daughter.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I'll tell you what I would have done - and it would have taken a LOT for me to stay calm and talk to mom in a respective tone, but I know how key that is to being heard so I woulda summoned it up:

I woulda first helped the child up (if I was close enough to get to her before she got up on her own) and woulda said "Oh honey, are you ok? That looked like it hurt!"

Then I woulda gone to mom and said as nicely as I could (but I believe this so the message woulda been sincere no matter how horrified I was): "Trust me, I know how it feels to have a child who won't listen. But I know a bit about child development and I really want to tell you that what you just did, even though I understand why you thought it was necessary... it's going to have the opposite effect. If you're trying to make her listen more, it's going to make her listen less. And it's going to make her behave worse overall in the future."

I have gone up to MANY young moms and basically said this (although I also lied and said I was a Pediatrician a couple times when I was intervening between a mom and a baby/toddler) but the message was the same, and I swear even though a few of them first looked at me like they were ready to punch me, they ALL listened and a few even asked me more questions. Sometimes it turned into a conversation about the challenges of parenting... other times it ended with me just saying again "I really do understand how frustrating it is... but I see the other end of this and parents don't realize that when they hit their kids in a situation like this, it does more to make life rotten for the parent than it does teach the kid any lesson."

I know this is much more about the child than the parent, but of course this child is with this parent so if you want to help the child, you've gotta somehow reach the parent. Even in a small way.

The other side of this though is that it's also important for children to hear someone from "outside" talk to their parent about something that was inappropriate. Even though I don't name it as such, I know that it can be lifechanging for a child (especially when that child suffers much worse abuse at home in private) to have someone address the parent and NOT the child abotu what is going on. Iv'e had a few adults tell me how lifechanging it was to finally realize that maybe... just maybe... all the chaos and pain was NOT their fault.

ETA: If mom seemed like she was willing to listen to more after I said the 1st part, I woulda also suggested if she can that next time she starts to feel that way, she call Grandma to come get her daughter BEFORE things get to the point where she wants to hit her with the shopping cart. She doesn't have to explain it again to DD, just get on the phone and say "Please come get her, she's acting up." That will teach DD much more of a productive lesson than hitting her.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I'll tell you what I would have done - and it would have taken a LOT for me to stay calm and talk to mom in a respective tone, but I know how key that is to being heard so I woulda summoned it up:

I woulda first helped the child up (if I was close enough to get to her before she got up on her own) and woulda said "Oh honey, are you ok? That looked like it hurt!"

Then I woulda gone to mom and said as nicely as I could (but I believe this so the message woulda been sincere no matter how horrified I was): "Trust me, I know how it feels to have a child who won't listen. But I know a bit about child development and I really want to tell you that what you just did, even though I understand why you thought it was necessary... it's going to have the opposite effect. If you're trying to make her listen more, it's going to make her listen less. And it's going to make her behave worse overall in the future."

I have gone up to MANY young moms and basically said this (*although I also lied and said I was a Pediatrician a couple times when I was intervening between a mom and a baby/toddler*) but the message was the same, and I swear even though a few of them first looked at me like they were ready to punch me, they ALL listened and a few even asked me more questions. Sometimes it turned into a conversation about the challenges of parenting... other times it ended with me just saying again "I really do understand how frustrating it is... but I see the other end of this and parents don't realize that when they hit their kids in a situation like this, it does more to make life rotten for the parent than it does teach the kid any lesson."

I know this is much more about the child than the parent, but of course this child is with this parent so if you want to help the child, you've gotta somehow reach the parent. Even in a small way.

The other side of this though is that it's also important for children to hear someone from "outside" talk to their parent about something that was inappropriate. Even though I don't name it as such, I know that it can be lifechanging for a child (especially when that child suffers much worse abuse at home in private) to have someone address the parent and NOT the child abotu what is going on. Iv'e had a few adults tell me how lifechanging it was to finally realize that maybe... just maybe... all the chaos and pain was NOT their fault.

ETA: If mom seemed like she was willing to listen to more after I said the 1st part, I woulda also suggested if she can that next time she starts to feel that way, she call Grandma to come get her daughter BEFORE things get to the point where she wants to hit her with the shopping cart. She doesn't have to explain it again to DD, just get on the phone and say "Please come get her, she's acting up." That will teach DD much more of a productive lesson than hitting her.

I would have approached the mom in as nonthreatening manner as possible and empathized with her but also remind her that when she gets to the point of wanting to hurt her child then she needs a break. I would tell her that when my son has days like that we leave the store and come back another day.

LROM - Lying to someone and telling them you are a doctor is not only irresponsible and dangerous, I find it incredibly pretentious that you pretend to be as qualified as a medical doctor who has spent many many years studying and training to become qualified and licensed as a doctor.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I feel bad for the mom. I can remember shopping trips when I was pretty close that point. It's hard to be on edge, and it's doubly hard in public.

It sounds to me like the shopping cart thing made her realize that she was snapping, so she called her child's grandma to come help out. It's too bad she didn't realize it a little sooner.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

What makes you think that the mom needs someone to tell her she did something wrong? i would have left the situation alone.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaoirseC* 
What makes you think that the mom needs someone to tell her she did something wrong? i would have left the situation alone.

I agree. It sounds like she screwed up (and I'm sure we all do, though probably not so publicly, and hopefully less violently!) but it also sounds like she recognized it & immediately did what she needed to do to get herself back on track.

If someone, God forbid, witnessed me do something that bad to my child, I'd already feel terrible, and I'd already be humiliated, and especially angry with myself. At least that's how I imagine I'd feel! I would be so upset if someone came up to me to 'lecture' me on how badly I reacted.

Perhaps if the situation escalated, as a witness I would have done something (call the cops or whatever) but if it immediately diffused and no one was seriously injured -- it's not really my place, no more than it's my place to berate a parent for spanking their child. In fact, I'd venture to guess that mom felt horrible about her actions (whereas many parents spank and don't have a single qualm about it).

But that poor kid


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Am I the only one who feels bad for the mom? The childs behavior was horrendous--if there was a time to step in it would have been while the kid was still in the dryer just to offer some moral support. That, yes, you are standing right there but you are *not* judging her (or the child) and that parenting is tough some times and maybe xyz would work...

I feel bad for the little girl, too, and I don't think running into your kid with a shopping cart is ever The Right Thing To Do, but reading the rundown of events that led up to it, I actually feel more compassion for the mom.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
If someone, God forbid, witnessed me do something that bad to my child, I'd already feel terrible, and I'd already be humiliated, and especially angry with myself. At least that's how I imagine I'd feel! I would be so upset if someone came up to me to 'lecture' me on how badly I reacted.

This has happened with me. It was when ds1 was about 5 or 6 (he's now 17). I still remember it, and it _still_ makes me cringe inside when I think about it. I've worked through the guilt over some of my worst parenting moments with ds1, although it took a long time. The shame of that confrontation never went away.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaoirseC* 
What makes you think that the mom needs someone to tell her she did something wrong? i would have left the situation alone.


I agree.

And I also feel a bit bad for the mom. Not excusing her behavior, but who knows what all is going on in her life.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

even I was mad at this child by this point
I'd be livid at the mom. Get your kid OUT of the dryer!

I can imagine needing a washer that bad that you stay with your kid whose pushing buttons, but at some point you have to leave anyway. Ugh.

FWIW, my daughter loves to walk in front of the stroller. I don't know why. It literally makes my heart skip because I know how bad it hurts to skin the back of your heel. I repeat, repeat, hold her hand, but she inevitably runs right up there... to her place... right in front of the stroller / cart. And yes, one day, she did (as she usually does) stop suddenly, and my stroller slammed into her heels. She was freaking out, and everyone was glaring at me.







Like I did it on purpose. I had been asking her to please, come to my side. (And yes, she still walks there... right where her heels will get skinned... I hold my breath, not good for stress management, but what can I do? Ask again? Go home... again? Ugh.)

Maybe it was a true accident?


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 

LROM - Lying to someone and telling them you are a doctor is not only irresponsible and dangerous, I find it incredibly pretentious that you pretend to be as qualified as a medical doctor who has spent many many years studying and training to become qualified and licensed as a doctor.

You know, I totally understand you feeling that way. And honestly, if I was giving medical advice I would feel the same way about what I did.

But the truth is the 2 times I said that I was faced with young parents who were literally physically hurting their young toddlers (like I think each time they were under 2) and I made a quick judgement call that the only way they'd see my intervening and saying *anything* as worth listening to and not something to get defensive about and curse me out was for me to say that. I certainly don't advocate lying, but I had one and only one goal in approaching these 2 moms: have them listen to me, if only for a moment.

If that hadn't worked I was a moment away from explaining that I was a mandated reporter (which I was) and physically intervening myself, but fortunately each time the mom stopped and listened to me, mainly I think because the doctor lie made them feel less threatened than if I told them I worked for a family violence organization (which was true).

And again, while I don't advocate lying, I do want to also be clear that every single bit of information I gave those moms about what they were doing and the likely effects on both their kids, their other kids, and them as parents, was absolutely accurate and within my professional range of knowledge. I threw the pediatrician part in as a way to hopefully have them calm down from a very angry moment long enough to listen to me, which seemed to work.

Totally understand why you feel the way you do about what I did, but to be totally honest if I didn't now actually work for child welfare I'd probably do it again in those situations. The only reason I won't do it now is if I did need to intervene and get the police involved, I obviously can't misrepresent who I am and who I work for. But if I didn't work for CPS, as a private citizen trying to stop a serious situation from getting even worse... yup, I'd say it again if I couldn't think of another way to get the parent to stop and listen. In my private life (i.e. not as part of my regular workday) I've probably intervened in 25+ sticky stranger situations over the years between adults and kids in public, and each time I only have two main goals: stop a kid from getting hurt, and help a parent/adult caretaker to maybe maybe see another way of handling the situation. Those were the only 2 times I lied, and given all said above, I'm glad I did it given the response from each of those parents.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Am I the only one who feels bad for the mom? The childs behavior was horrendous--

This can be hard to accept when you've just seen it "explode". Usually in these situations I feel bad for the child because many times the kid isn't disciplined at home and then the parent gets embarrassed at the store when they don't behave and they the parent does something extreme to show he/she is in charge.

I am NOT saying that any child that mis-behaves in public isn't disciplined at home! My kids act like many others do!

But I have know soooo many people who didn't discipline and teach at home and then blamed the child and threw their hands up and said "See, what can I do?"

I can empathize with the mother about getting to the breaking point but as adults we need to be more mature and stop ourselves. But why didn't mom reach in that dryer and get that kid out, plop them in the cart and leave?

I don't think I would have said anything.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I wouldn't have said anything because store employees were already involved- and I'd trust that Security would have called CPS if that was warrented in this situation.

What else can the mom do at that point? She got somebody else to care for the child to give herself a break. She completed her shopping (which might have been absolutely necessary- maybe her washer just broke and she's got mountains of laundry piling up at home.)


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

I feel for the Mother. It sounds like she was at the end of her rope. To top it all off everyone's standing around staring at the whole mess.

Now, I'm not saying she was right in running her kid down with the shopping cart at all. It's just unfortunate that it escalated to that point.

My kids have tested me in public lots of times, more often than not I haul them out of there before the urge to knock their heads together becomes more than an urge. (I wouldn't actually) End result, we go home, kids get plunked in front of the tv and I go chill out.

But sometimes there's a fantastic stranger, whether they be a salesclerk or just another shopper who pull my kids (and me) out of their funk. There was the Home Depot saleslady who brought over a handful of paint samples and some pens and asked the kids to draw some pictures for the store, and the old guy in the Winn Dixie line who opened his box of donuts and told my kids if they sit nicely on the floor they could have one. They did. (of course)
And many more....and they never fail to say "oh I remember those days...I had X kids...your a busy mom, etc..." It ALWAYS diffuses the situation.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
But sometimes there's a fantastic stranger, whether they be a salesclerk or just another shopper who pull my kids (and me) out of their funk. There was the Home Depot saleslady who brought over a handful of paint samples and some pens and asked the kids to draw some pictures for the store, and the old guy in the Winn Dixie line who opened his box of donuts and told my kids if they sit nicely on the floor they could have one. They did. (of course)
And many more....and they never fail to say "oh I remember those days...I had X kids...your a busy mom, etc..." It ALWAYS diffuses the situation.

this.

if the mom had been repeatedly ramming the kid, or it seemed obvious that she intended to do it again, I would consider stepping in, because that would be actual prevention. after the fact, it's not really prevention.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

I don't think you should have done anything. It sounds like mother got herself together and did what she needed to do to make sure the situation didn't escalate. Not a great parenting moment, but not worth calling the police over, and I don't think they couldn't have done anything about it anyway. I bet the manager and security guy were there either by coincidence or to make sure the little girl didn't come back to mom and start climbing into more expensive appliances and breaking them. I'm sure working in a large retail store like that, they've seen a lot worse than an intentional cart bump and wouldn't waste their time on it.

I also don't think stepping in post cart bump would have been wise either. They were already having a hard time, and the mom was trying to get out of a bad situation. Stepping in at that point would have likely only made the mom more upset and kept her from doing what she needed to do. I think it was best just to let it lie.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This has happened with me. It was when ds1 was about 5 or 6 (he's now 17). I still remember it, and it _still_ makes me cringe inside when I think about it. I've worked through the guilt over some of my worst parenting moments with ds1, although it took a long time. The shame of that confrontation never went away.

Yes. I didn't ram my kid







with a shopping cart, but I can remember one of my worst moments with one of my kids, and I think, if anyone was there and saw me, and came to me and started in on me...I think it would have really damaged my ability to learn fom the situation. I mean, after the exchange between me and my kid that I will forever regret, I felt AWFUL. I felt sooooo guilty, and like such a bad mother. I knew I was not parenting the way I should have. But I was so deep in a hole, and I was just trying to figure out how to get out. If I got lost in that guilt, I never would have come out. I would have become paralyzed.

I am glad this mom called for help eventually, even if it was later than would have been best.

The mom sounds like she lacked some skill from the get-go. The situation escalated because she was struggling to deal with it effectively in the first place, and it probably got even worse than it would have at home because all these eyes were on her and she was feeling judged and vulnerable. People act differently in those types of situations because they have the "fight or flight" chemistry happening in their brains.

She is trying to run a long-distance marathon on one leg. You think laying the law down with her when she has fallen is going to help her get up?

The situation deserved a compassionate response much earlier...compassionate toward both the child and the mother. Some folks have offered some good examples of such responses. I especially liked the one that came much earlier in the situation and started with telling the mom you weren't judging her.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

You know, while I understand what you're saying those of you saying "stepping in after the fact would have only made matters worse", I guess it all depends on why you thought intervening was the thing to do in the first place?

Defintely preventing further imminent harm, if the parent seems to be about to do more actual damage, is a reason to intervene.

But my experience in talking to parents in situations like this is that almost across the board, once they calm down, they say how NICE it is to have someone talk to them with compassion. (They don't necessarily say "compassion" but so many have said to me "No one ever seems to understand.... maybe you do...")

For me, even though my ultimate goal is to help a child, I feel like most parents act like this because they don't know any better. I'm not saying this "role" is for everyone, but I reach out because my experience so far is that parents APPRECIATE someone saying "Hey, this is really hard. But you know, there are other ways... have you tried this?" Or "Do you realize this is going to backfire, but here's something else that might work for you instead?"

That's the spirit in which I approach, and yes to some (I've been told this before on MDC, not just in this thread







) saying anything at all is being a high and mighty busy-body. But my experience tells me otherwise (heck, actual MOMS have told me otherwise), and that's what I go on.

And even though my own is still young, I've already experienced what it feels like to have someone WELL MEANING offer support (which I always always appreciate in a hard moment) as well as having someone comment disapprovingly (usually because I had DD at a concert, even though she's wearing ear protectors) and really, the spirit in which the comment is made/intervention happens seems to make ALL the difference in how helpful/hurtful it is in the end.

Shaming a parent is never a solution. But going up and saying "This is hard... I totally understand. Have you ever tried this?" Some of you might balk at that as an intervention, but I notice all of you have also said you would never actually slam your child with a shopping cart. (Feel like it maybe, but not do it). And you guys felt bad about it right away. The parents I've intervened with, it seemed pretty clear they saw *nothing* wrong with how they'd handled it. They might have been embarrassed by their kid's behavior, but not by their own.

To me that's exactly what separates a parent like this from one who's just having a regular crappy parenting day. This parent actually slammed her child.

And that's why for me, I always try to find some way to intervene when it's gotten to the point of being badly physical, even after the fact. Because I may be (and have been, according to some moms) the only person who's ever given them any other useful info about how it's going to bite them later and what else they could try to do instead.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

nak

had a terrible parenting moment with dd1 a few weeks ago. no cart but grabbed her arm and really screamed angrily at her. felt like total wreck over it then and now. had extended heart to heart with dd about it later, apologised to her and was forgiven. if anyone had said a single word to me about it i think i would have never gotten over it. it was bad enough, you know? i didn't need interference, i needed to be out of the rain with the baby, and i needed dd to understand why shredding her jacket sleeve was a bad idea. i knew shouting wasn't the best way to accomplish either. i knew i wasn't doing the right thing by her or by me. i really didn't need to be told anything, there was nothing to be said or done that would help.

So i don't think anything needed to be said or done. a parenting lesson in that moment, however well-meant, is like a road safety lesson after a bus has hit you - you're not in a place to listen well, and have wounds which need attention first.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
But my experience in talking to parents in situations like this is that almost across the board, once they calm down, they say how NICE it is to have someone talk to them with compassion. (They don't necessarily say "compassion" but so many have said to me "No one ever seems to understand.... maybe you do...")

But what else are they supposed to say? "Thank you for making me feel even more ashamed & butting into my life?" No, they have to somehow 'save face' so to speak... So they play along... I'm not saying you're not being helpful, I don't doubt that some (maybe even most/all) of the parents you've intervened with have been incredibly grateful. Maybe you have a natural ability to communicate these kinds of lessons without being judgmental or condescending, especially due to your career/life experience. It's just really hard for me to picture this in my head -- how you can say it without offending the mom, and how you can offer advice without sounding high & mighty -- I do think the average person wouldn't come off as being 'compassionate.' I cannot imagine myself being anything but annoyed and embarrassed and upset if someone approached me like this. No, most of us wouldn't push a cart into our child -- but many might grab the kid a little too roughly, or push them aside a little too aggressively, it's just degrees of difference. I also don't think you (general you) can judge whether a person feels remorse just by their outward actions. People tend to get defensive when caught red-handed, and I know many who would deflect the blame to the misbehaving child rather than admit they reacted badly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
Defintely preventing further imminent harm, if the parent seems to be about to do more actual damage, is a reason to intervene.

But my experience in talking to parents in situations like this is that almost across the board, once they calm down, they say how NICE it is to have someone talk to them with compassion. (They don't necessarily say "compassion" but so many have said to me "No one ever seems to understand.... maybe you do...")

For me, even though my ultimate goal is to help a child, I feel like most parents act like this because they don't know any better. I'm not saying this "role" is for everyone, but I reach out because my experience so far is that parents APPRECIATE someone saying "Hey, this is really hard. But you know, there are other ways... have you tried this?" Or "Do you realize this is going to backfire, but here's something else that might work for you instead?"

That's the spirit in which I approach, and yes to some (I've been told this before on MDC, not just in this thread







) saying anything at all is being a high and mighty busy-body. But my experience tells me otherwise (heck, actual MOMS have told me otherwise), and that's what I go on.

Yeah - um, that would piss me off. So, I had a less-than-wonderful parenting moment in public, so I must "not know any better"? Seriously? The underlying arrogance of that is absolutely appalling. I also wouldn't feel that someone was being even remotely compassionate when they came up to explain to me how my parenting sucked and would bite me later, and how I "should" be doing xyz, instead.

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And even though my own is still young, I've already experienced what it feels like to have someone WELL MEANING offer support (which I always always appreciate in a hard moment) as well as having someone comment disapprovingly (usually because I had DD at a concert, even though she's wearing ear protectors) and really, the spirit in which the comment is made/intervention happens seems to make ALL the difference in how helpful/hurtful it is in the end.
Yes - and when the spirit is "I'd better tell this mom another way, because she obviously doesn't know what she's doing", it's not going to go over well with some people. It's also not "intervening" when the situation has already blown over. The woman in the OP left, and called someone.

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Shaming a parent is never a solution. But going up and saying "This is hard... I totally understand. Have you ever tried this?" Some of you might balk at that as an intervention, but I notice all of you have also said you would never actually slam your child with a shopping cart. (Feel like it maybe, but not do it). And you guys felt bad about it right away. The parents I've intervened with, it seemed pretty clear they saw *nothing* wrong with how they'd handled it. They might have been embarrassed by their kid's behavior, but not by their own.

To me that's exactly what separates a parent like this from one who's just having a regular crappy parenting day. This parent actually slammed her child.
I've never slammed my child with a cart. I have manhandled ds1 in public. It was not a "regular crappy parenting day", but it certainly wasn't out of any belief that it was the right way to handle it. I was mortified by the whole situation, and somebody standing by thinking, "that woman has no clue what she's doing" would have no idea what I was embarrassed about...and I was _more_ defensive and bitchy when I knew I was in the wrong, because it was humiliating to be handling things so badly in a public place, on top of whatever else was going on with me that contributed to going over the edge. Anyone basing their opinion of how I felt about my interaction with my son on how I reacted to their butting in would have been _way_ off base.

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And that's why for me, I always try to find some way to intervene when it's gotten to the point of being badly physical, even after the fact. Because I may be (and have been, according to some moms) the only person who's ever given them any other useful info about how it's going to bite them later and what else they could try to do instead.
That's fine. We all draw the line in different places, and I wouldn't intervene after the fact. FWIW, I've known at least two women in the last 5-6 years who would smile nicely at you, thank you for the information, and then go home and punish their children for the humiliation they experienced at being talked down to in public. It might have been a success for you, but it wouldn't have been for their kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
a parenting lesson in that moment, however well-meant, is like a road safety lesson after a bus has hit you - you're not in a place to listen well, and have wounds which need attention first.

So well said. I agree completely.


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## p.s (May 27, 2005)

I think I would have a given the mom a look of "you have done a very naughty thing" and walked away. The mom knows what she did was wrong... which is why she took care to separate the child from herself.

And any mom who did not recognize what she did wrong, after a lifetime of observing how humans interact with and treat each other, as sure as is not going to change with hearing the criticism from a stranger when they are in the midst of rage.

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Originally Posted by *LROM* 
... although I also lied and said I was a Pediatrician a couple times ....
I _know_ this is much more about the child than the parent


Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
...honestly, if I was giving medical advice I would feel the same way about what I did.

But the truth is the 2 times I said that I was faced with young parents who were literally physically hurting their young toddlers (like I think each time they were under 2) and I made a quick judgment call ... I told them I worked for a family violence organization (which was true).

well, i am a physician... and this is not medical advice. just a response...
after practicing medicine for more than a few years, I realize more and more the less that I "know." It takes a while to really get to know and understand a person's situation. That is why doctor's get paid what they get paid, and why many see their patients over and over. If someone's foot is 180 degrees backwards, well you can probably guess that there is a fracture. But maybe not. Maybe something else.
In social or psych issues, family issues, even harder. Takes some time to figure out. Unlikely that a 4 second observation is enough to give you all the information. And here's a little secret, get to know some old physicians. You may find that those are the ones who make the least judgments. But listen best.

If there was literal physical hurting, I might also give a big wince on my face, said "ow!" or "yikes" but still walked away. It helps to also understand the laws of the state in which you reside. those dictate at what point you really must step in.
btw, if someone is licensed to give any sort of advice, they should be proud of it! Be proud to say: I am a licensed social worker. Or psychologist, or whatever. If you are....


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

That's fine. We all draw the line in different places, and I wouldn't intervene after the fact. FWIW, I've known at least two women in the last 5-6 years who would smile nicely at you, thank you for the information, and then go home and punish their children for the humiliation they experienced at being talked down to in public. It might have been a success for you, but it wouldn't have been for their kids.

It's interesting that you mentioned this, b/c my first thought was to compare the situation to an abusive spouse (fwiw, I am not saying the mother in the OP scenario was/is abusive), but that the same defensive tendencies come up, as well as embarrassment and anger. I think the chances of doing harm by butting in is greater than the chance of it honestly making a difference. A husband who is being aggressive in public and is caught and lectured, is likely to be even more horrific when the couple gets home. I can definitely see myself getting more upset (mainly, b/c I'd be so mad at myself for what happened) and taking it out on my kids in the car home - yelling, being extra irritated, more crabby - b/c some stranger felt the need to "intervene" after the fact. That just adds fuel to the fire.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
But my experience in talking to parents in situations like this is that almost across the board, once they calm down, they say how NICE it is to have someone talk to them with compassion. (They don't necessarily say "compassion" but so many have said to me "No one ever seems to understand.... maybe you do...")

I think they are being polite. You have demonstrated here that you don't understand, and your child is too young for you to understand anyway.

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For me, even though my ultimate goal is to help a child, I feel like most parents act like this because they don't know any better.
Even if that is true (and I think it may be very presumptive and arrogant train of thought...but for the sake of argument, lets assume it is true), I don't think there is any way for a parent to be educated effectively in the circumstance.

First, as was already said, it is like trying to educate someone about road safety when they've just been hit by a bus. They are busy dealing with something else.

Second, I understand from my schooling in education, people can't learn when their brains are being impacted by a chemical reaction to fear, humilitation, shame, etc. This is NOT a "teachable moment."

More importantly, this mom was struggling waaaaaaay earlier than when she rammed her kid with the cart. She didn't know how to deal with her child not listening to her limits. That's a huge issue, and new skills to address it can't be taught -- in most cases -- even if you stood there for 45 minutes talking to her.

Even if you had planted a seed, and I deeply question whether a seed can be planted in that moment, if she truly "didn't know better" as you claim, then how would she know where to even begin gaining the skills to address the root cause of the issue?

I am firm that the time to intervene, if one was going to intervene would have been long before the incident with the cart.

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I'm not saying this "role" is for everyone, but I reach out because my experience so far is that parents APPRECIATE someone saying "Hey, this is really hard.
Alone, it is a compassionate statement, and out of the things you report saying, it is probably the best thing you say. I can buy that a lot, maybe even most people appreciate being acknowledged for how hard things are when they are struggling.

How useful that is in terms of helping them to change their ways of dealing, I don't know. I could see some people, if that is all they hear, feeling validated in their negative approach. "Everyone loses it like this." It sets a norm, in a way. On the other hand, I can see it helping others calm down, and sort of stand back from the situation.

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But you know, there are other ways... have you tried this?"
Before the climax in this story, maybe (I certainly wouldn't say, "but you know, there are other ways...have you tried this," but possibly "Oh man! I've been there! That is so hard. Would it help if...?") but after she has hit her child with the cart? No way. The bus already hit by that point. Her brain was all high on adrenaline.

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Or "Do you realize this is going to backfire, but here's something else that might work for you instead?"
IRL, I am a _very_ calm person generally, at least on the outside. However, if someone ever said that to me, even I might freakin' lose it, especially if high on adrenaline. It comes off to me as incredibly arrogant...so judgemental, and righteous. I especially wouldn't be able to cope with something like that if I were humiliated, feeling shame, etc.

I really do think that no matter how polite someone might be when they are actually dealing with you, that you have no idea the damage you are causing when they go home. Like I said, that kind of thing would have really, _really_ harmed my ability to learn from one of my darker moments as a parent.

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But my experience tells me otherwise (heck, actual MOMS have told me otherwise), and that's what I go on.
I guess I see families on the other side of that bridge. I work in ministry and work with families in pastoral ways in which I see wounds that someone wouldn't see in passing (or even in a longer term relationship, if the job of the outsider ultimately came down to judging the family).

I am a big advocate of intervening in cases of abuse, so this is actually unusual for me to be arguing this side of the coin. But this actually is the OTHER side of the coin. This was a mom who sounded like she was really struggling and lost it, and realized she needed help and called and got help. You might not relate to that yet...but you when your child is older, or you have more than one, unless you are in the 10% of people who just get lucky, I am willing to bet you'll finally have your own moment like this, even if not in public.

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And even though my own is still young, I've already experienced what it feels like to have someone WELL MEANING offer support (which I always always appreciate in a hard moment) as well as having someone comment disapprovingly (usually because I had DD at a concert, even though she's wearing ear protectors) and really, the spirit in which the comment is made/intervention happens seems to make ALL the difference in how helpful/hurtful it is in the end.
Rarely does unsolicited advice seem helpful to the majority. Most of us would rather someone extend a helping hand, rather than judgement.

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Shaming a parent is never a solution. But going up and saying "This is hard... I totally understand. Have you ever tried this?"
Again, what is being argued here is that this isn't helpful AFTER the parent has experienced a really intense moment in public, lost cool (lost face), and even recognized her need for help.

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Some of you might balk at that as an intervention, but I notice all of you have also said you would never actually slam your child with a shopping cart.
I don't doubt that none of us have done that. But I have been on MDC for what...12 years now (?)...and other similar AP/natural family boards for at least 10 years, and I have seen many loving AP parents come here and on the other boards very upset and horrified about having in a truly awful moment lost it and spanked, slapped or hit (even multiple times) their children.

These posters have reflected every sentiment expressed here about how the "lose it" moments (whether yelling, being rough, spanking, or in this case, ramming) aren't teachable moments. They were mortified. They felt awful about what they had done. They feared they weren't cut out to be parents. They felt they didn't deserve their children. They were so ashamed.

And the post might be made on MDC sometimes weeks after the original event, and even then, having come down from the adrenaline, someone saying the kinds of things you have said here can trigger that shame to levels unimaginable to you at this stage in your parenting journey. Almost invariably, the hurt gets too big to manage, people get defensive, arguments break out, feelings get hurt, and threads get shut down.

Like I said, parenting is really tough, and it can bring us to some primitive level of emotion we have never experienced before. The people who have said your "interventions" would have a negative impact on them are not so far from the average parent. Most of us are average parents...struggling to do our best.

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And you guys felt bad about it right away. The parents I've intervened with, it seemed pretty clear they saw *nothing* wrong with how they'd handled it.
I think I know what you are saying here. Because I have spoken up when I've seen a parent hitting or pinching a child in public when I thought it would help the situation because of the particular circumstances. I do think in some cases, when someone is hurting a child, it is clear that it is a "way of life" for the family.

If this mom had been screaming and hollering at her child throughout the store, for example, I wonder if we all would have reacted differently. Instead, we heard her struggling to manage her daughter's behavior without getting physical. We heard her trying to coax her child out of the dryer. We heard her trying to negotiate with her child, albeit by threatening to "call grandma," but basically trying to let her child know there would be a consequence. I think you are applying a rule of thumb from unrelated experiences to this one.

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They might have been embarrassed by their kid's behavior, but not by their own.
But I also think it is important to realize that people don't always wear it on their sleeve when they feel badly about their behavior. It is not really possible to make accurate guesses about how people feel about their own behavior based on passing experiences with them. You don't know if people regret or have remorse for how they are with their kid in any given moment.

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To me that's exactly what separates a parent like this from one who's just having a regular crappy parenting day. This parent actually slammed her child.
I think there are levels of "regular crappy parenting days." I think plenty of us are saying that we have had moments in time that have been out of the ordinary INTENSLY crappy. Like, "oh sh*t, did I just screw up my child for life?" crappy.

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And that's why for me, I always try to find some way to intervene when it's gotten to the point of being badly physical, even after the fact. Because I may be (and have been, according to some moms) the only person who's ever given them any other useful info about how it's going to bite them later and what else they could try to do instead.
The "bite them later" thing just really gets me because it is completely inconsistent with everything that is known about human learning. It's shaming, and people don't learn from that. You are claiming that (multiple) parents are thankful for you saying, "this is going to bite you later." I don't believe any such claim.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

I think it is high time people speak up and support each other......._in a kind respectful way_.....

there is so much hurt and pain in this world.....

and I believe the womyn and mama's of this planet need to step up and stand up for the healing of us all......


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I feel bad for the mom. I can remember shopping trips when I was pretty close that point. It's hard to be on edge, and it's doubly hard in public.

Me, too. And although I feel great shame now when I look back on those incidents (and did so in the immediate aftermath) I really don't feel that a stranger intervening with "helpful" comments would have been a good thing. At all.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

And even though my own is still young,
How old is your child, LROM?

The kindest thing anyone ever said to me--and a couple people have--is, "I remember those years. It does get better!" That made me want to be a better mom. Variants were, "Oh, I remember my daughter at that age." "Keep going, mama, mine were like that but it ended eventually."

I don't understand from the post why the mom was not able to physically take the child out of the dryer but I suppose (upon reflection) that is irrelevant. I don't think anything anyone could say would make a difference.

And misrepresenting as a doctor for any reason is wrong if not illegal in places.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
How old is your child, LROM?

The kindest thing anyone ever said to me--and a couple people have--is, *"I remember those years. It does get better!"* That made me want to be a better mom. Variants were, "Oh, I remember my daughter at that age." "Keep going, mama, mine were like that but it ended eventually."

I don't understand from the post why the mom was not able to physically take the child out of the dryer but I suppose (upon reflection) that is irrelevant. I don't think anything anyone could say would make a difference.

And misrepresenting as a doctor for any reason is wrong if not illegal in places.

a few weeks ago, the day before my terrible parenting moment, dd1 was mucking about and i was losing my rag a little and an old gentleman who was walking slowly up the same hill as us said sympathetically "you have to do it all at their pace at that age don't you?". An ally, rather than a crusader wading in the "rescue my poor child", brought out the best in me, and we all walked together, my kids and this ally, up the hill, far more relaxed about it all, and he told me about his kids and how they were as 4yo's.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I don't understand from the post why the mom was not able to physically take the child out of the dryer but I suppose (upon reflection) that is irrelevant. I don't think anything anyone could say would make a difference.

Well, DS1 is almost 5yo. He is tall and solid. It's getting to the point that it is getting difficult for me to lift him, if he doesn't want to be lifted so I imagine in another year it would be pretty hard for me, if not impossible, to drag him out of a dryer if he was intent on staying in there. Not that it really matters, but I just thought I'd give you my point of view.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I'd be livid at the mom. Get your kid OUT of the dryer!

I can imagine needing a washer that bad that you stay with your kid whose pushing buttons, but at some point you have to leave anyway. Ugh.

FWIW, my daughter loves to walk in front of the stroller. I don't know why. It literally makes my heart skip because I know how bad it hurts to skin the back of your heel. I repeat, repeat, hold her hand, but she inevitably runs right up there... to her place... right in front of the stroller / cart. And yes, one day, she did (as she usually does) stop suddenly, and my stroller slammed into her heels. She was freaking out, and everyone was glaring at me.







Like I did it on purpose. I had been asking her to please, come to my side. (And yes, she still walks there... right where her heels will get skinned... I hold my breath, not good for stress management, but what can I do? Ask again? Go home... again? Ugh.)

Maybe it was a true accident?

I hope so!

With your dd, have you tried making her sit in the stroller/cart every time she walks in front of it? Or having her be the one to push it (you steer when necessary)? The fact that she's already gotten hurt would maybe make it easier to lay it on the line as a safety issue.

I'd also bet that her walking there is making shopping extra stressful for you since you're going to have to slow down to try not to run into her.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
The kindest thing anyone ever said to me--and a couple people have--is, "I remember those years. It does get better!" That made me want to be a better mom. Variants were, "Oh, I remember my daughter at that age." "Keep going, mama, mine were like that but it ended eventually."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
a few weeks ago, the day before my terrible parenting moment, dd1 was mucking about and i was losing my rag a little and an old gentleman who was walking slowly up the same hill as us said sympathetically "you have to do it all at their pace at that age don't you?". An ally, rather than a crusader wading in the "rescue my poor child", brought out the best in me, and we all walked together, my kids and this ally, up the hill, far more relaxed about it all, and he told me about his kids and how they were as 4yo's.










Mind you, you do have to use that sort of remark *before* the parent loses it. When they're upset, but still in control.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

With your dd, have you tried making her sit in the stroller/cart every time she walks in front of it?
No, she's not allowed to sit on top of her baby sister, LOL!

They do take turns (baby in carrier or on leash when not in stroller or cart). But whenever baby needs to be pushed... it is a nightmare. For me, that skin on the back of the heels is so sensitive and I can't bear the thought of hurting her there. It's one thing to let her run on grass and if she falls, oh well, lesson learned. Another thing to rip the skin off her tendon.









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Well, DS1 is almost 5yo. He is tall and solid. It's getting to the point that it is getting difficult for me to lift him
That's a good point, albeit a frightening prospective...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
No, she's not allowed to sit on top of her baby sister, LOL!

They do take turns (baby in carrier or on leash when not in stroller or cart). But whenever baby needs to be pushed... it is a nightmare. For me, that skin on the back of the heels is so sensitive and I can't bear the thought of hurting her there. It's one thing to let her run on grass and if she falls, oh well, lesson learned. Another thing to rip the skin off her tendon.









Ooo, yeah, that's not going to work, then. And you probably can't have her push things with her baby sister in there either.







: for it to be a phase and for it to end soon!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

She is too short to push, and she pushes it into things. I also hope it ends soon!


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

I wouldn't have said anything, either. One, because the mother resolved the issue by calling in help (though obviously, this step should have happened much sooner in order to keep her dd safe), and two, because it is very possible that it was an accident.

I'm very familiar with those parenting moments in which you think it was okay to bring your child with you to a particular public place, and then once you get there, the combination of their boredom/extra energy/whatever and your need to shop/interact without distraction and focus on something other than the child makes for a disaster. Tensions run high and you're too distracted to parent effectively because you're trying to do two things at once. It's not ideal, and a lot of times the temptation to just keep trying since you're already there is very high.

Also, I've noticed that in these situations, with increased tension, trying not to cause a scene, trying to rein the child back in a bit, and still trying to get whatever it is you're there for, there is a higher tendency for physical accidents. I remember one instance in particular when I took my 6 (he was 5 at the time) year old to the pet store -- we were in a hurry, he hadn't had enough exercise that day and was super excited about the animals, and I was trying to find a particular kind of dog food and wasn't having any luck. He was bouncing around *everywhere*, and I was trying to push the cart through the narrow, uneven aisles, and was kind of yelling at him under my breath.







Well, we collided, not too hard, but I can guarantee that if anyone had been watching us (especially from the beginning), they would have sworn that I did it, and on purpose. At that point, all frustrated and annoyed and with a bouncing child, I would not have taken anyone's advice to heart, and would have griped about them endlessly to whoever would listen once I got home.









I greatly appreciate the wonderful people who step in with a kind word BEFORE we get on edge. That's the kind of help I want to be.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I actually think the old gentleman spoke to me AFTER i'd begun snapping at DD but he sort of gave the impression that he hadn't heard anything...? Does that make sense? His attitude said "i KNOW how hard this can be" and not "i KNOW you need to be stopped to protect your poor kid". I am usually good with perspective but having a tiny baby makes the things i don't usually mind pretty annoying. Like it is fine for me and DD1 to take 40minutes in the rain to wander up our hill, but when the baby is getting wet in the wrap it is Not Cool. He managed to give perspective and diffuse without shaming me.


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## p.s (May 27, 2005)

just to reply to the washer / dryer emergency comments....

i live in the D.C. area where the power keeps going in and out (thanks PEPCO!). Once it shortwired the washer and the load stopped midcycle. It just needed the attn of the Maytag man, but if it had truly broken, I would have needed a replacement. And since my laundry accumulates, and there is only an approx 2 h window in any given 10 day stretch that I can get to a Lowes to shop... if I finally made it to one, I wouldn't leave without buying. Plus you don't know if that mother is a single mother, or if she has other kids that she made arrangements for childcare... or if she cloth diapers and has no good access to a laundromat, and no more clean diapers, and no money to buy disposable... or if she had a laundry based business that her livelihood depends on.
You just never know...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

dd1 was mucking about and i was losing my rag a little and an old gentleman who was walking slowly up the same hill as us said sympathetically "you have to do it all at their pace at that age don't you?". An ally, rather than a crusader wading in the "rescue my poor child", brought out the best in me, and we all walked together, my kids and this ally, up the hill, far more relaxed about it all, and he told me about his kids and how they were as 4yo's.
This is so lovely it almost made me cry. This is what it is about.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

For all those of you who specifically responded to me, just wanted to say I read your responses and it's been good food for thought. The one thing I just don't think I've explained well is that most of these exchanges with moms did not end with me saying whatever I said, and them saying "Thanks, that was helpful. Bye bye." They led to conversations. In a couple of these situations I even offered to buy the mom and kid/kids a snack because mom wanted to talk further and the kids were getting restless, so we went and sat somewhere and continued to talk.

Maybe some of them just smiled and were nice to get rid of me. But too many of these situations led to conversations where the MOM (and in 2 cases dads) wanted to continue the conversation for me to give up completely on addressing parents the way I have, in the kinds of situations I did.

I will definitely give more thought to what I say, and maybe - I'd rather never ever be in one of those situations again, but I do seem to run across them fairly frequently - if there is a next time, I'll try to think about what some of you have said re: my approach (mainly the many of you who said the backfire comment would piss you off - although honestly that seems to be the point at which many of the past moms actually perked up and payed closer attention).

And I get that most of you feel like talking to a mom after the situation is over is like the traffic safety lesson to someone who is physically injured. I just can't... I know how it feels to see these situations unfold in front of your eyes, and given the seriousness of the ones I've intervened in, I just can't say I won't still go over after the fact. I can't imagine walking away after a child's just been hit in a seriously inappropriate way (we're not talking jerking your kid's arm a bit too strongly or even whacking them once because they talked back or had a fit.)

But I'll definitely give the whole thing a lot more thought.

Note to Sierra: I could go on about my theories on why the "going to bite you later" comment seems to actually have the opposite effect so many of you think it would/does and seems to further engage the moms I've spoken to instead of making them ball up their fists. But this isn't the thread - I'd be happy to PM you. But I assure you - you guys may doubt most of what I say, but I am in tune enough to know the difference between a comment that consistently pulls someone in more than it pisses them off or sends them away. Thanks for your comments though and the way in which you put them.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
For all those of you who specifically responded to me, just wanted to say I read your responses and it's been good food for thought. The one thing I just don't think I've explained well is that most of these exchanges with moms did not end with me saying whatever I said, and them saying "Thanks, that was helpful. Bye bye." They led to conversations. In a couple of these situations I even offered to buy the mom and kid/kids a snack because mom wanted to talk further and the kids were getting restless, so we went and sat somewhere and continued to talk.

Maybe some of them just smiled and were nice to get rid of me. But too many of these situations led to conversations where the MOM (and in 2 cases dads) wanted to continue the conversation for me to give up completely on addressing parents the way I have, in the kinds of situations I did.

I will definitely give more thought to what I say, and maybe - I'd rather never ever be in one of those situations again, but I do seem to run across them fairly frequently - if there is a next time, I'll try to think about what some of you have said re: my approach (mainly the many of you who said the backfire comment would piss you off - although honestly that seems to be the point at which many of the past moms actually perked up and payed closer attention).

And I get that most of you feel like talking to a mom after the situation is over is like the traffic safety lesson to someone who is physically injured. I just can't... I know how it feels to see these situations unfold in front of your eyes, and given the seriousness of the ones I've intervened in, I just can't say I won't still go over after the fact. I can't imagine walking away after a child's just been hit in a seriously inappropriate way (we're not talking jerking your kid's arm a bit too strongly or even whacking them once because they talked back or had a fit.)

But I'll definitely give the whole thing a lot more thought.

Note to Sierra: I could go on about my theories on why the "going to bite you later" comment seems to actually have the opposite effect so many of you think it would/does and seems to further engage the moms I've spoken to instead of making them ball up their fists. But this isn't the thread - I'd be happy to PM you. But I assure you - you guys may doubt most of what I say, but I am in tune enough to know the difference between a comment that consistently pulls someone in more than it pisses them off or sends them away. Thanks for your comments though and the way in which you put them.

I can assure you, if you approached me about my interactions with my child it would not be pretty. I am pretty sure I would see right through you, particularly if you said you were a Dr. or some kind of child care expert, I'm intuitive like that.







I could totally see accidentally running into my 5 year old with a cart in a store, not slamming into him of course, but accidently bumping him yes. He is all over the place sometimes, hanging on the end of the cart, which I don't mind, but if he jumps off he might get hit by the cart. He might be walking in front of me and stop abruptly and get bumped, it happens. Intervening because you see a child getting beat is one thing, butting your nose in every time you see a mother who looks stressed in another, especially when you have a young child and haven't even been in that person's position yet. I agree with the PPs that said these people were being polite, they may have also been afraid of you because you identified yourself as someone you are not and they sensed something was off so they didn't want to cause any problems. It sounds like you are looking for these opportunities to portray yourself as something you are not. Its not good.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I can assure you, if you approached me about my interactions with my child it would not be pretty. I am pretty sure I would see right through you, particularly if you said you were a Dr. or some kind of child care expert, I'm intuitive like that.







I could totally see accidentally running into my 5 year old with a cart in a store, not slamming into him of course, but accidently bumping him yes. He is all over the place sometimes, hanging on the end of the cart, which I don't mind, but if he jumps off he might get hit by the cart. He might be walking in front of me and stop abruptly and get bumped, it happens. Intervening because you see a child getting beat is one thing, butting your nose in every time you see a mother who looks stressed in another, especially when you have a young child and haven't even been in that person's position yet. I agree with the PPs that said these people were being polite, they may have also been afraid of you because you identified yourself as someone you are not and they sensed something was off so they didn't want to cause any problems. It sounds like you are looking for these opportunities to portray yourself as something you are not. Its not good.

This. Very strongly, this.

And in 8 months of being out among the rabble, I have not had a SINGLE occasion where I thought I knew more than another parent and felt the need to say ANYTHING. I'm pretty dang smart, but mostly I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything, and when it comes to how others parent, I don't know *anything* about their lives or circumstances. A cheerful, "You've got your hands full!" or "Kids- aren't they great?" with a wink has never gotten anything other than a knowing grin back.


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## justmama (Dec 24, 2002)

I'm not usually one to interfere in other people's business or how they parent their children but recently I was at Target with my 3 who were actually all behaving and happy that day(miracle of miracles!) and I saw a mom just completely losing it with her 3. She had a screaming toddler in the seat of the cart, one toddler holding the edge of the cart, and one preschool-kindergarten age child throwing herself on the ground having a tantrum. I saw her roughly grab the child and pretty much toss her into the back of the cart and yank the one child holding onto the cart to get him to move so she could finish her shopping while yelling at them loud enough that I could hear about 2 aisles away. I felt awful because the kids were really well-dressed and well cared for it looked like and she just seemed to be having an off day. I kinda forgot about it and saw her later in the laundry detergent aisle still having problems with her kids and as I walked by I said, "3 can be a handful sometimes huh? We had one of those days yesterday. It was all I could do to take a deep breath, leave my cart in the aisle, and walk out so I didn't scream and rip my own hair out. I really sympathize with you. You have beautiful children." She just smiled a little, agreed, and walked away towards the registers but she looked a little calmer and more in control and hopefully next time it'll occur to her to just leave her cart and take the kids outside and get control and worry abotu the shopping later. I think it just truly did not even cross her mind to drop what she needed and leave, or she needed those items that day and couldn't wait and felt she had to stay and finish her shopping with scrteaming kids. I really felt for her. I have days when my kids are really acting up all at once and I'm overwhelmed and I lose my temper and do things I regret later. I think we all do.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, but I think this may not have been her mom.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Mom was kinda young-ish, and clearly seemed to be losing her grip this morning.

An older sister can easily be the same age as a young mom. An older cousin is also quite plausible. Certainly a young aunt could be also.

Quote:

Dressed perfectly.
Which suggest a more relaxed person may have been responsible for that part.

Quote:

At one point, mom yanked her arm a little, and when the daughter yelled a dramatic "Ow you pulled my arm".. mom looked around, then loudly said "I'm trying to teach you a lesson, how do you think it feels?"
This is just what older siblings/cousins do. A parent rarely feels a need to state that something was done to teach a lesson, it is just an unspoken constant. An older sibling though needs to state it as an excuse for bad behavior and to assert authority.

Quote:

"Come out... get out... do we need to go home? Do, I need to call grandma to come get you? Get out, come out...."
It sounds like _grandma_ is the actual authority here, not the young lady with the girl. Also, she say simply grandma not _your_ grandma, which suggest that she may be grandma to both of them as would be the case for a sibling/cousin.

Quote:

She never came out. So, the sales lady opened the dryer and told her firmly to get out.
The child will listen to authority, but is not viewing the person she came with as authority.

Quote:

I didn't notice any obvious injuries, but the mom tossed the child into the cart and got her cell phone out, made a call, and she pushed the cart outside.

I was still looking at washers when the woman came back a few minutes later without the child.
My guess is she had grandma pick the girl up.

My guess is the child is taken care of by grandma either most of the time or during the day while both her parents work. The young lady was probably a sibling/cousin/young aunt, who may also treat grandma as a parent figure, who agreed to let her younger sibling/cousin/niece come along, but discover she wasn't up to handling the child.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
No, she's not allowed to sit on top of her baby sister, LOL!

They do take turns (baby in carrier or on leash when not in stroller or cart). But whenever baby needs to be pushed... it is a nightmare. For me, that skin on the back of the heels is so sensitive and I can't bear the thought of hurting her there. It's one thing to let her run on grass and if she falls, oh well, lesson learned. Another thing to rip the skin off her tendon.









OT, but my DS walks in front of the cart too and it drives me crazy. I noticed that I have marginally more success when I say, "Walk with your feet next to my feet" instead of "Walk next to me." I think he interpreted "walk next to me" as "walk somewhere in my general vicinity."







But yes, the thought of bashing into that tender skin -- yeowwwcchhhh!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

It happened AGAIN, limabean, too bad I hadn't read your post before!







I do ask her to "walk behind the wheel" and "walk right beside me" at times but she loves to lead.









I will try that, maybe she will like the game of making it a "tie". (She won't let me win...)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I haven't read any of the other responses yet, but I think this may not have been her mom.

An older sister can easily be the same age as a young mom. An older cousin is also quite plausible. Certainly a young aunt could be also.

I also wondered if it were the mom, and I definitely agree about older siblings (having had people mistake ds1 for dd2's father a couple of times - which is _really_ uncomfortable, honestly). But, I don't really agree with most of your reasoning. I've seen lots of well-dressed kids with parents at the end of their rope, and I don't think a child being well-dressed indicates a "relaxed" person was in charge (two of the biggest stress-bomb moms I've ever known wouldn't let their children out the door, unless they looked perfect). I've also heard parents state clearly that they're trying to teach their child a lesson (I may have even said it myself, at least to ds1, in an attempt to explain what I was doing). I frequently refer to my mom as "grandma", not as "your grandma", when talking to the kids.

I do agree that it sounds as though the child sees "grandma" as more of an authority figure than the woman she was with (be that her mom, sister, aunt, family friend or...other), though. And, it definitely sounds like she called the grandma to pick the child up.

It sounds as though she _really_ needed a washer/dryer.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I can assure you, if you approached me about my interactions with my child it would not be pretty. I am pretty sure I would see right through you, particularly if you said you were a Dr. or some kind of child care expert, I'm intuitive like that.







I could totally see accidentally running into my 5 year old with a cart in a store, not slamming into him of course, but accidently bumping him yes. He is all over the place sometimes, hanging on the end of the cart, which I don't mind, but if he jumps off he might get hit by the cart. He might be walking in front of me and stop abruptly and get bumped, it happens. Intervening because you see a child getting beat is one thing, butting your nose in every time you see a mother who looks stressed in another, especially when you have a young child and haven't even been in that person's position yet. I agree with the PPs that said these people were being polite, they may have also been afraid of you because you identified yourself as someone you are not and they sensed something was off so they didn't want to cause any problems. It sounds like you are looking for these opportunities to portray yourself as something you are not. Its not good.

I'm not going to re-state the kind of situations I've intervened in. I'll simply say I'm way too busy and have enough of my own issues to deal with to actually try to interact with every parent who looks stressed. That is absurd and I would spend every waking hour doing that since I see stressed parents a very regular basis. I have no idea where you got the impression that that's what I do.

As for looking for opportunities to portray myself as something I'm not, looks like that's what I get for being honest about something I did TWICE ever in my life. Twice. Feel what you will about those 2 times, I've already said I understand why people see those 2 times that way. But if doing it twice out of all the times I've intervened makes me "looking for opportunities", I don't know what else to say.

And on that note, I'll keep reading, but that's the last I'll post about myself in this thread.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I also wondered if it were the mom, and I definitely agree about older siblings (having had people mistake ds1 for dd2's father a couple of times - which is _really_ uncomfortable, honestly). But, I don't really agree with most of your reasoning. I've seen lots of well-dressed kids with parents at the end of their rope, and I don't think a child being well-dressed indicates a "relaxed" person was in charge (two of the biggest stress-bomb moms I've ever known wouldn't let their children out the door, unless they looked perfect). I've also heard parents state clearly that they're trying to teach their child a lesson (I may have even said it myself, at least to ds1, in an attempt to explain what I was doing). I frequently refer to my mom as "grandma", not as "your grandma", when talking to the kids.

I do agree that it sounds as though the child sees "grandma" as more of an authority figure than the woman she was with (be that her mom, sister, aunt, family friend or...other), though. And, it definitely sounds like she called the grandma to pick the child up.

It sounds as though she _really_ needed a washer/dryer.

I certainly agree that it _could_ have been the mom, and absolutely none of my evidence is that strong (especially the well dressed thing.) I just remember what it was like to be taken out by one of my big sisters or my much older cousin, and the whole encounter sounds very reminiscent of those, much more so than any I ever had with my mom. It especially reminds me of one of my sisters. I've also seen similar encounters between girls who were obviously too close in age (one about 10 to 12, the other 5 to 7) to be mom and daughter.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *p.s* 
Plus you don't know if that mother is a single mother, or if she has other kids that she made arrangements for childcare... or if she cloth diapers and has no good access to a laundromat, and no more clean diapers, and no money to buy disposable... or if she had a laundry based business that her livelihood depends on.
You just never know...

Exactly. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with DH in which he said that it was ridiculous that I didn't want to take 3 kids grocery shopping with me anymore. I explained to him that they are too distracting, and if I could leave the older two at home with him then I would be able to make wiser financial decisions. You never know if her husband is the same way- maybe she NEEDED a dryer, and her mom agreed to take the kid only if it was ABSOLUTELY necessary.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I can assure you, if you approached me about my interactions with my child it would not be pretty. I am pretty sure I would see right through you, particularly if you said you were a Dr. or some kind of child care expert, I'm intuitive like that.







I could totally see accidentally running into my 5 year old with a cart in a store, not slamming into him of course, but accidently bumping him yes. He is all over the place sometimes, hanging on the end of the cart, which I don't mind, but if he jumps off he might get hit by the cart. He might be walking in front of me and stop abruptly and get bumped, it happens. Intervening because you see a child getting beat is one thing, butting your nose in every time you see a mother who looks stressed in another, especially when you have a young child and haven't even been in that person's position yet. I agree with the PPs that said these people were being polite, they may have also been afraid of you because you identified yourself as someone you are not and they sensed something was off so they didn't want to cause any problems. It sounds like you are looking for these opportunities to portray yourself as something you are not. Its not good.

cycle said it great. I would be LIVID if someone questioned my parenting ability in PUBLIC of all places! Geez - especially if they didn't know me at all! I've had bad moments - we ALL have. Lets not pretend for a second that ANY of us are perfect. I can easily see a child walking in front of a cart and getting accidentally hit and a parent losing it. Especially if the child is already misbehaving - its SO hard to keep cool all the time. I do occasionally give other parents a sympathetic smile, or say something like, "I have a child the same age, its tough!" to empathize. But I would NEVER say anything to a parent unless there was true violence happening - and then I would call 911 b/c I don't have the luxury of confronting a violent person and possibly risking my OWN safety (I have a child that I have to think of for goodness sakes!).


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
and when the daughter yelled a dramatic "Ow you pulled my arm".. ....

... mom took her cart and slammed it into her daughter. It hit the backs of her feet, knocking her forward and her head snapped backwards. The screaming was horrendous.


First thing...most here have read this as meaning the girl was knocked down. Doesn't sound like that to me.

Also sounds like the girl is a wee bit dramatic. Sounds like my son. My son who will do crazy things that should hurt him over and over and won't react, but when he's in the mood to misbehave, if I simply put my hand on his shoulder to get his attention he'll yell about it and make others think that I've hurt him. Doesn't help that I have a "stress face" that looks annoyed even when I'm ecstatic, and if he's in such a misbehaving mode that he's gotten me to get him to stop I'm generally frazzled looking...so I *look* like I'm hurting him, when I'm actually not.

I've also managed to do accidental things, like well I can't think of what, but it's generally while shopping as he's darting around, so I imagine a shopping cart has probably hit him at least once, and those things happen when I'm distracted.

So, and of course this is dangerous b/c I wasn't there, but I'm calling a "nope, wasn't how you thought it was" on this one. I think you saw something that was different than the reality, and I think that the girl was being dramatic in her reactions. DS has dropped to the ground and pretended to faint, if I just look at him funny (which is weird, b/c when I TRY to give him my mom's patented, always-worked-on-me-and-brother, Death Glare, he laughs.







But then I'm trying to keep things pleasant, and he's in a heap. Gah.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I haven't read any of the other responses yet, but I think this may not have been her mom.

An older sister can easily be the same age as a young mom. An older cousin is also quite plausible. Certainly a young aunt could be also.

Ooh dang, good point. I have 5 sibs; the 3 youngest are 13, 15, and 25 years younger. I was taking care of them and taking the two youngest out and about as soon as I could drive. But they were my siblings, so I would and could be meaner to them than I would be to my son...that's kind of in the job description for an older sib, yes?









I think there's just no real way of knowing what happened.

In the future, the "oh I've been there done that" type of sentence is good, if you can catch the eye of the adult. And only BEFORE something happens.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

*<<<First, as was already said, it is like trying to educate someone about road safety when they've just been hit by a bus. They are busy dealing with something else.

Second, I understand from my schooling in education, people can't learn when their brains are being impacted by a chemical reaction to fear, humilitation, shame, etc. This is NOT a "teachable moment.">>>*

This. Wow. I'm really laughing at the idea of pretending to be a doctor. Number one, if you did this to me - I'd probably spot you out. I'm married to a doctor. I'd ask you questions you probably wouldn't be able to answer on the fly and then I'd possibly try to find out who you were so I could report you. It is illegal in my state to impersonate professionals with legal licenses.

And then I'd get another giggle at you because I've met real pediatricians who thought breastmilk was bad for toddlers since it wasn't sterile and that co-sleeping would smother my baby and that if it didn't smother the baby, the child would be far too "attached" to us. We have a pediatrician we do love but I take her advice with a grain of salt. Heck, I take EVERYONE'S advice with a grain of salt.

That's not a teachable moment since you have no control on the outcome like others have said. You have no idea if you actually made things worse for all the people you've "intervened" with.

I think the best response that has ever worked for me was when I was grocery shopping with my kids. They were like 3 and 2. And they were being relatively "good" (as good as tired toddlers cane be). There was another mom shopping opposite to me. (She was going down the aisles backwards - why do people do that!?







) And we met each other in every aisle. Her child was starting to act up halfway through. And I watched her get more and more peeved.

We checked out together. Our cars were close to each other and then her kid did that tantrum-y thing where she refused to bend to get into the carseat. That used to drive me bonkers!!!









So I kinda yelled over to her, "Hey wanna meet me at Chili's for a margarita!?!" And she laughed. She stopped and really laughed. After that, I said, "You ok? You going to make it?" And she smiled and replied that she had her balance back. She made some comment about how do you do it with twins (My son was big. My DD was small.) And we laughed together about how hard it was and how we didn't get paid enough. I made a few more cracks about how when I'm 80, I'm going over to my kids' houses for the holdiays and am going to curse like a sailor and crap my pants so they have to fix it.

Then we got in our cars and drove away. I live in a small town so I've seen her since and her daughter and now her son seem very happy and attached to her.

Anyone who hasn't had a bad day like that with their kids is in my opinion, either completely delusional, has a mental disorder like extreme contact avoidance, or has birthed pod children from the planet Zargon.

I don't know what I would have done with the shopping cart lady. I'm sure I'd have gone for humor first since that's my weapon of choice. It depends upon how dramatic the kid was, how hard the hit was, how the mom looked immediately after, etc. etc.

But I wouldn't have lied about a career I don't have.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Security was probably there to kicked the mother and child out if the child was going to damage anything else.


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## KJoslyn78 (Jun 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141* 
Anyone who hasn't had a bad day like that with their kids is in my opinion, either completely delusional, has a mental disorder like extreme contact avoidance, or has birthed pod children from the planet Zargon.

I don't know what I would have done with the shopping cart lady. I'm sure I'd have gone for humor first since that's my weapon of choice. It depends upon how dramatic the kid was, how hard the hit was, how the mom looked immediately after, etc. etc.

But I wouldn't have lied about a career I don't have.

LOL - birthed pod children

I agree - i go for humor as my weapon of choice. I've bumped into many a moms either having a bad day, of giving me a chuckle to survive mine. It really does wonders when you get the reaffirmation that "you are not alone, we all have days like this" from fellow moms.

And having an overly dramatic child myself, who has pulled some of the very same stuff mentioned - i would be upset and bothered if questioned and lied to, in public.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

like other posters have said, if I saw a possible chance to connect with the mom pre-shopping cart incident I would have done so. Parenting can be SO isolating. I would have tried to make eye contact and said something like "it looks like you are having the kind of day I had yesterday. I'm surprised my daughter and I both survived!" and tried to break the tension and left her feeling (hopefully) marginally less alone and overwhelmed.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KJoslyn78* 
LOL - birthed pod children









good catch!

Sorry - OT, but that was funny.


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