# Am I becoming "that parent"????



## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Would it bother you to see a parent with a coffee cup following a laughing running toddler (20m) around a restaurant? We get him to sit as much as possible, (he "must" sit while we're actually eating) but we take turns following him around while we're waiting for the meal to come, between courses, or when waiting for the bill. People mostly seem to smile but I worry that we might be disturbing people.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

I worked in restaurants for years, and the issue I had was that I would be very busy running around and I wouldn't see the child until too late. Hands full of hot things... as long as your dc isn't in danger or putting someone else in danger, I wouldn't worry


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Not to be mean, but I think it's rude- unless you're at a really kid friendly family restaurant with a lot of kids in it.
If it's too hard for him to sit and wait, maybe getting up with him and taking him outside could work.
What did when my kids were little, was call ahead with our order (even if we were eating in) so there would be very little "wait time" to sit through.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Children running around in restaurants is so dangerous for both the child and the wait staff and disturbing to the other guests. If he refuses to sit, please, please, please take him outside or to the lobby, if the restaurant has one.


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

I would rather he be running and laughing than sitting and whining/screaming. And I'm sure you're smart about it and don't let him run where the wait staff are trying to carry trays.









When I'm with wiggly kids at restaurants, I often take them to an empty/closed section of the restaurant to run. Or outside is a good option as well.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Honestly, take him outside or play in the car until the food comes, order ahead or get takeout. I have 2 young children and I hate to see kids running around a resturant. Remember that the other patrons are paying good money to be there and eat their food and they may not want to be part of your childs entertainment.

Others have already touched on the danger issue, I've seen trays of food/glassware go over just because it happens, they don't need little children running around.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm also in the 'this is dangerous and not fair to others' mode. We took our littles back out to the sidewalk if they were that antsy and gave each other a signal to come back inside when the food was served.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it's potentially dangerous too. There are sharp and hot things being carried around restaurants, and toddlers are small enough to get underfoot (as we all know).

We used to take turns out in the lobby with dd when she was wanting to move around. Plus, there was a period of time where we mainly just got take-out.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Children running around in restaurants is so dangerous for both the child and the wait staff and disturbing to the other guests. If he refuses to sit, please, please, please take him outside or to the lobby, if the restaurant has one.









I have been a waitress on and off for.....ummmmm....a long time. I would be so afraid of spilling food on your son! Please take him to the lobby.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

dd is usually good, and will st for a looooong time with crayons and paper, water, fruit, but if she gets restless dh takes her outside. Same with ds. I think it is dangerous, rude, and not the proper place for play activity.That said, we made sure dd knew we sit in resturaunts from an early age. No forcefully, just reminding each time she wantd to run around and not letting her or taking her outside.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

we also make sure to get crayons, water and fruit from the waitsatff early on.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Depends on the restuarant, honestly.

I have a diner in town that my boys and I frequent. All the waitresses know us & my two yr old walks/runs around the circle (the diner is a round setup, with the counter in the center), none of the waitresses mind nor do the regulars.
Sometimes there are grumpy old ladies and strangers who give a weird look or an evil eye (or at worst, make snide comments...), but they are also the SAME ones who shoot me dirty looks and make nasty comments if my 2 yr old is crying and hollaring because I WON'T let him down to run/walk. There is *nowhere* outside to take him, either - the diner is right off of the main highway through town and there is no safe place to stand, no less walk. There is no lobby and the diner is usually pretty quiet, so there is little chance of any "accidents" by dropping trays. Either my older son or I is always right there with the little one and he never approaches other diners, he just walks around and around and around, giggling.
I'd rather have him walking and giggling then stuck in the booth, fighting with me and his brother, crying hysterically. Any GOL or strangers who have such a major problem with it can either get over it or leave. It's *my* hometown diner, where I spend my money every other week, know the waitresses (actually, "our" waitress even came to T's baptism party) and it is a "Family Diner"... that means kids. Kids are not silent little beings who sit nicely and eat quietly (well, unless you live in Stepford...). If one goes to a "Family Diner" then one should expect children and child like behaviors (including giggling, walking around, running and even crying at times).
You know, in the years I've been going there, I've never actually had a problem with strangers - just 2 or 3 little grumpy as hell old ladies.... I wonder about that. Do they forget what little kids are like? Do they still believe that old adage that children should be seen, but not heard? It is a family diner, after all - not a hoity-toity "restaurante".
I mean, this is a place that removes the ketchup and sugar and puts in plastic ashtrays in after 9pm on Friday and Saturday nights, so that when the drunks come in, they can't do any real damage, so... a wandering tot during the daytime shoudln't rile feathers.


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## lizamann (Dec 2, 2004)

Yes, it would bother me. I agree with what others have said about safety, etc. There is a regular adult restaurant here in town that gets overtaken by the tot set during lunch and weekends. I now avoid it like the plague because of all the kids running around, squirming on the floor, bouncing on the booths, and talking to patrons behind them. Drives me insane, even though it generally seems to be understood that this is how the restaurant works. I personally choose not to put myself and dd in that environment.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Personally it wouldn't bother me or my dh for that matter. I always enjoy it when little toddlers/kids come up for a chat or a smile and it's also free entertainment for MY 19 month old! I do agree that it could be dangerous though if the place was really crowded or busy.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

LOL... we may RUN INTO each other while chasing our little guys around sometime!







We do the same thing. People ARE indeed annoyed... we just pretend they are not knowing all the while that they'd be REALLY annoyed if it was a screaming unhappy toddler we were trying to chase around. And HEY it's a free country- toddlers need to socialize too! If the restraunt staff hates us- then we don't go back! lol


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
dd is usually good, and will st for a looooong time with crayons and paper, water, fruit, but if she gets restless dh takes her outside. Same with ds. I think it is dangerous, rude, and not the proper place for play activity.That said, we made sure dd knew we sit in resturaunts from an early age. No forcefully, just reminding each time she wantd to run around and not letting her or taking her outside.


That's great that you do not have a high needs toddler! Unfortunatly WE DO! And up until just the last few weeks if WE wanted to go out to dinner HE had to come to and it's just not fare for us to NOT go out EVER in TWO YEARS... so chase him around is what we did. He's now doing really well staying with his Gram or his Great Gram or Grandpa so we can have a "run free" dinner every once in a while.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

doesnt bother us. i am sure you are being observant and keeping your child safe. there is a difference between going with your child to explore his surroundings and letting him loose.

tabitha


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

it bothers me, to be honest.

the whole "better running around happy then sitting down screaming" doesn't make sense to me- how about neither? Obviously if I go to a very child-oriented place I fully expect to see both, but out to eat? no. And while it's excellent that he sits during the meal, it's sort of teaching him that restaurants are an okay place to run around in when he's allowed to do so while not eating.

normally I wouldn't say anything, but hey, you asked! lol


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## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

Quote:

there is a difference between going with your child to explore his surroundings and letting him loose.
I think this is the key. Hey, if mom is trailing the toddler around, making sure he's not in danger or people's way, then that is cool. I think what a lot of people are reacting to is the tendency of some parents to just let their kids loose all over the restaurant so that they (the parents) can sit and enjoy their meal. But that is not what the OP was talking about at all!

It's hard work taking a toddler to a restaurant, but I think it's a good idea. They will gradually learn how to behave, and eventually you'll have a civilized little dining companion. But if you stay home until they are five, they may not learn.

Quote:

the whole "better running around happy then sitting down screaming" doesn't make sense to me- how about neither? Obviously if I go to a very child-oriented place I fully expect to see both, but out to eat? no.
Well, I guess I assume that 20 month old children will either be active or cranky. If you are very lucky, they will sit quietly at the table, but there's not a lot you can do to control their behavior - you can only make sure that they are safe and as non-disruptive as possible. I mean, you can try to help them sit quietly by providing plenty of snacks and table activities, but for a lot of kids, these things will only work for so long at that age (we are talking about a not-even-two-year-old here).

And short of fine dining experiences (which I rarely go to because of $$$), I expect to see kids at restaurants. I guess I'm thinking Applebees/Red Robin's/the local Mexican place/pizza place situations, since that's the type of place we typically go when eating out. I know that busy families like/need to eat out at casual dining restaurants as much as I do.

I don't have kids yet - shouldn't I be the one who is suppopsed to glare and mutter "my child will NEVER act like that!"? :LOL


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I do not expect my 3-year-old to sit still at the table that long. We always ask for a table far away from everything and let him run around, as long as he is safe and it doesn't get out of control. It doesn't matter how many toys we bring, he burns through them in two seconds and then needs to move.

Of course, we live in Italy where people adore children and they expect the kids to run around. It will be different when we move to the States I am sure.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

It's not that I don't understand child behavior. I truly 100% believe it's unrealistic- and pretty unfair- to expect a toddler to sit down and be quiet for an extended period of time. I'm not saying it's the parent's or kid's fault that they're not just sitting there like a doll. I'm saying that knowing the child's limitations, they should be brought outside or to a closed off area to run around, or if the parents don't want to have to do that, then don't go somewhere that isn't child oriented. Even if mom is trailing right behind the toddler, the toddler is still running around, and that still bothers me, because I'm trying to have a conversation and eat my meal and while I ADORE kids, I just don't want to deal with them when I'm paying to have a meal made for me so I can sit and enjoy it.

I fully expect to see and hear kids of all ages at family restaurants. And as long as they're not coming up to my table, or leaning over the booth, or screaming full blast, I don't care- it's when I'm at a place that's NOT a family restaurant that it would bother me.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

spatulagirl- there you have it! its the us where this is such an issue.

as long as the child isnt endangering anyone, i don't see why people are so uptight about it.

for example, sometimes when i go out there are ugly people sitting next to me, and i don't see why i have to "deal" with them when i have paid good money and blah blah blah...

how is this any different? children are (magically) children, and they are equal members of society.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tabitha*
spatulagirl- there you have it! its the us where this is such an issue.

as long as the child isnt endangering anyone, i don't see why people are so uptight about it.

for example, sometimes when i go out there are ugly people sitting next to me, and i don't see why i have to "deal" with them when i have paid good money and blah blah blah...

how is this any different? children are (magically) children, and they are equal members of society.


Sorry, but I disagree.

First, because it's almost impossible, if the kid is running around (even w/Mommy right behind him) for him *not* to be endangering or significantly inconveniencing anyone. And when I say anyone, I mean himself (WRT hot plates and such) and the waitstaff who have to maneuver around him, etc. Trust me-- BTDT.

Second, your "ugly people" analogy is off-- you don't have to look at them. But to expect that a toddler is going to run around *without* yelling or possibly running into someone... Look, you're saying that the child can't occupy himself with anything else at the table. But he's going to calmly walk around the restaurant? (Even if Mommy's with him?) Not likely. It can be very disruptive.

Third, Children are not equal members of society. They should absolutely be treated with respect, but there is a reason that they are not allowed to work, vote, buy cigarettes, etc. They don't have the same rights as adults, nor should they. They don't have the same *capacity*-- to plan, weigh consequences, recognize safety hazards, etc.-- as adults do, either.

Finally, although children's age-appropriate behavior should be tolerated by restaurant-goers to some extent, running around is just not one of those things. I mean, if we want to compare kids to adults, fine. It would be rude for an adult to sit and color a placemat and not converse with his tablemates or eat with his hands, but not a kid. However, whether the diner is 3 or 30, it is not appropriate for him to be running around. If the kid can't *not* run around, he needs to be somewhere else.

NJMNSHO.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

are children people or are they pets? the eternal question.

i firmly believe that children are our equals. the fact they they cannot buy cigarettes, as you listed, does nothing to sway me.

you make the assumption that it is impossible for a child not to be disturbing/endangering. i disagree.

tabitha.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

It really depends on the restaurant. If the restaurant has tableclothes, the kids probably shouldn't be in it unless they are able to be quiet. If it is a fast food restaurant with a playground and you are in the playground area, all bets are off....it is perfectly acceptable for parents to sit and kids play (as long as they are not shoving/hitting/biting...then you intervene). The restaurants in between it is a subtle scale of what is allowable for us. A place like "Jason's Deli/Fazoli/Ryans Family Steakhouse", walking around following ok, "Carrabas/Olive Garden/Outback Steakhouse", take outside to walk around.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Children running around in restaurants is so dangerous for both the child and the wait staff and disturbing to the other guests. If he refuses to sit, please, please, please take him outside or to the lobby, if the restaurant has one.









:


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

when we go to a restaurant we always go to a family oriented place first of all..Swiss Chalet, Kelsey's, Casey's...then we get our table and sit with dd in our lap...she's usually quite contented to do so long enough for us to order...we show her the menu pictures and occupy her...Once the order is placed we get down and start walking around..sometimes we carrier, other times we hold her hand...we show her pics on the walls, she waves to people, we look out the window and count cars...then when the food comes we take her back...she is a slow eater so she is good at least as long as we are in her chair. Then while the table is cleared one of us will take her to the bathroom and walk about and talk to her.

I have to say I have never gotten a "dirty look" and most people are quite interested in talking to her and saying hi. We are careful around the waitresses coming with food and explain to her about the danger of that. She seems to be understanding. The waiters seem to appreciate it too.

Waiters are always thrilled with her and we have never had a restaurant breakdown yet. Of course we make sure she 's not too tired.

As for me...children delight me. I would never consider it an inconvenience to have children around me while I am eating and usually strike up conversations with the children while waiting for my meal. The meal is worth the money as long as I don't have to wash dishes or cook...

We have pretty much done it this way since she was newborn so I guess it's become her routine.

She is almost 23 months now.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spatulagirl*
I do not expect my 3-year-old to sit still at the table that long. We always ask for a table far away from everything and let him run around, as long as he is safe and it doesn't get out of control. It doesn't matter how many toys we bring, he burns through them in two seconds and then needs to move.

Of course, we live in Italy where people adore children and they expect the kids to run around. It will be different when we move to the States I am sure.


Haven't finished reading- but I agree with the general Italian mentality that children are indeed part of society, and therefore as entitled to be at a restaurant, and anywhere else for that matter, as adults.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I used to find it incredibly irritating that people here in the northwest don't dress up when they eat out. You can spend $100 to sit in a restaurant surrounded by people wearing jeans and polar fleece.

None of them seem to care that they are detracting from a meal I'm spening good money on. Darn them! Why don't they just go to an "informal" restaurant if they want to be that way! What gives them the right?

I've been on planes and restaurants where people are talking so loudly I can't have a conversation, I've eaten near people who talk with their mouth's full- or who are fighting terribly with their spouses. Heck- I've been a house guest and had the hosts argue loudly in front of me. YUCK!

Unfortunately, the world does not revolve around me and my preferences. If I want to have a good time, I have to block out the stuff I don't want to deal with at a the time.

I think parents have a responsibility to ask for tables out of the way, try to keep their kid's relatively quiet, entertained and coralled, etc. But taking a walk around to check out the restaurant? par for the course. If it's much more than that people tend to go to the lobby, bathroom hall, etc.

I have honestly NEVER seen a parent letting a kid run so amok at a restaurant that I felt anyone was in danger. (Hey wait! Maybe I'm that parent!?) I have, however, seen all manner of adult behavior that was inconsiderate, rude, irritating and yucky.

As my mother used to say- "I don't care, as long as it's not my kid acting up/crying."


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

This drives me crazy. a couple of laps with mom holding a hand is fine but really I don't want to bothered, I don't want to worry that my flying fork will stab him or some witress will trip and fall hurting herself, the child and anyone in the way.

Another thing that bothers me is that we worked very hard to make sure our kids can sit and wait nicely at a a resteraunt. We don't go to sit down resteraunts until they are ready and we do not allow running around. which meant a lot of sacrifice and often leaving when they gotcranky. it was high maitenence but with the right planning and lots of teaching resteraunt manners they had it by around 2. and everytime some kid is running amuck or climbing around or whatever my kids lok at us like we are the meanest people in the world. actually the older two get it. couple of kids were playing hide and seek in a busy resteraunt. rudeness and such aside (they were literally hiding under peoples tables) it was so distracting to my children. tehy could not eat nicely in that environment with people runnig around. we expect that kind of behavior at chuck-e-cheese but not at a normal place.

and lest you think I believe children have less rights than adults I would be jsut as irritated if grown ups were runnign around and being distracting and making things dangerous. and I think mom following toddler, with hot liquid in her hand is even more dangerous than just a kid running around. one more person in the way, one more person to run into trip over and generally create a distraction. Is it really so hard to go in the lobby or outside?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

I have honestly NEVER seen a parent letting a kid run so amok at a restaurant that I felt anyone was in danger.
When I waited tables I saw it nightly, usually more than once a night. Even "kid-friendly" restaurants serve hot food and beverages. It would happen every so often that a waiter would trip over a child or a child would get hurt and INVARIABLY the parent of that child would be indignant, furious that their child had been injured.

Also, kids are prone to reaching up and grabbing whatever is at eye-level. Some kid grabbed food off of my plate when we went out to eat last week. The mother laughed and apologized profusely, but that didn't give me my food back, you know? Who wants to eat food that has had some other kid's grubby hands in it? I smiled and said it was okay, but really, it wasn't. My husband was out in the lobby with my toddlers. It is just plain rude to allow children to wander around restaurants because you don't know what they are going to do. We never, ever take our kids out to eat. The only reason we did last week was because my in-laws are in town. I won't be making that mistake again anytime soon.

Kids are loud. That doesn't bother me. Kids cry. That doesn't bother me, either. It bothers me when kids walk around in restaurants and disturb the waitstaff and the other guests.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think it is fine to walk around the open areas of a restaurant (the lobby, maybe a hallway to the back door or something). But walking around the tables (for entertainment--not getting to/from table or serving food) is inappropriate imo. Inappropriate for anyone, adult or child. As a diner, I like a bit of space.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I think it is fine to walk around the open areas of a restaurant (the lobby, maybe a hallway to the back door or something). But walking around the tables (for entertainment--not getting to/from table or serving food) is inappropriate imo. Inappropriate for anyone, adult or child. As a diner, I like a bit of space.

That's what I meant, to be clear. I didn't mean that kids shouldn't walk around in open areas, such as the lobby or hallway to the bathroom, out of the way of other diners and the wait staff.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spatulagirl*
I do not expect my 3-year-old to sit still at the table that long. We always ask for a table far away from everything and let him run around, as long as he is safe and it doesn't get out of control. It doesn't matter how many toys we bring, he burns through them in two seconds and then needs to move.

Of course, we live in Italy where people adore children and they expect the kids to run around. It will be different when we move to the States I am sure.


thats it right there- thats the problem with the US. no matter how much we preach family values, we just dont walk the walk. its an adult society, and we make no allowances for families. its very sad.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

There is a time and place for everything, IMO a sit down resturant is not the time and place for a toddler to be running around.

There are plenty of places for running, I don't go out to eat much because it's too hard on the kids, I also don't let them scream in the library, again time and place, there are plenty of places for screaming. They need to learn that not all behaviors are acceptable everywhere.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I think there is a huge difference between a screaming toddler running amok grabbing peoples food and going on a little walk around the restaurant while you're waiting for the bill or something. And I am guessing that the OP isn't letting her kid terrorize the place!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

It really irks me when some of my freedoms get taken away because of a few irresponsible people.

When I was a dog owner, I used to have to leave her tied up, or in the car, or on her leash, all because some people couldn't take the time to train their dogs properly. Or socialize them. Or give them enough exercise that they don't bark all day long and dig up gardens. Or pick up after their waste.

Similary, it bugs me that irresponsible parents who let their kids cause problems in restaurants have obviously soured many people, including many posters here, on the idea of kids being a part of society. I see no reason why, in a *family [kid] oriented restaurant*, kids should not be able to toddle around with a supervising parent closeby without people having to worry about food being grabbed off their plates, or their kids tripping up waitresses with hot food. A bit of parental common sense is all that is needed. Personally, I think it's sad that we have a low-tolerance for kids and their behaviours in places that are meant for kids. But it's also sad when some parents let their kids run amok and ruin it for the rest of us.

The way I see it, If someone wants to have a peaceful dining experience, they should fork out the money for an adult-oriented restaurant or stay home. It's bad enough that parents are stuck with Chuck E Cheese-type establishments as their only realistic dining experience for the next few years, but to have to deal with complaints about young kids from people who are choosing to eat there is even worse.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
It really irks me when some of my freedoms get taken away because of a few irresponsible people.

When I was a dog owner, I used to have to leave her tied up, or in the car, or on her leash, all because some people couldn't take the time to train their dogs properly. Or socialize them. Or give them enough exercise that they don't bark all day long and dig up gardens. Or pick up after their waste.

Similary, it bugs me that irresponsible parents who let their kids cause problems in restaurants have obviously soured many people, including many posters here, on the idea of kids being a part of society. I see no reason why, in a *family [kid] oriented restaurant*, kids should not be able to toddle around with a supervising parent closeby without people having to worry about food being grabbed off their plates, or their kids tripping up waitresses with hot food. A bit of parental common sense is all that is needed. Personally, I think it's sad that we have a low-tolerance for kids and their behaviours in places that are meant for kids. But it's also sad when some parents let their kids run amok and ruin it for the rest of us.

The way I see it, If someone wants to have a peaceful dining experience, they should fork out the money for an adult-oriented restaurant or stay home. It's bad enough that parents are stuck with Chuck E Cheese-type establishments as their only realistic dining experience for the next few years, but to have to deal with complaints about young kids from people who are choosing to eat there is even worse.


I agree. No one should get too bothered my a toddler at Chuck E Cheese (or as we like to call it "Insanely Loud House of Pizza")

But I have been at several "adult oriented" places where someone thinks its ok to have their toddler run around. THAT is annoying.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
. I see no reason why, in a *family [kid] oriented restaurant*, kids should not be able to toddle around with a supervising parent closeby .

I guess I can agree with that. Truth is, I've never taken dd to a kid oriented restaurant, so I don't even know what they are like. Is the food any good? Frankly, we live in an an area with lots of wealthy retirees, and I doubt we even have kid oriented restaurants.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This is a big pet peeve of mine. I used to waitress and even well behaved and supervised wanderers are dangerous. I had an experience in which I tripped over a roaming toddler while carrying a HUGE tray of surf-n-turf dinners. That included steak knives, melted butter warming over candle flames, very hot and heavy plates, etc...... The child was OK but I sprained my ankle and burned my arm requiring me to miss work and a paycheck for over two weeks, I lost the tips from three tables thats patrons got covered in little droplets of splattered sour cream, I had to pay for the lost dinners, and the parents of the child never apologized. In fact they were furious that I tripped over junior, complained to the manager, and did not leave a tip for thier waitress. The toddler was being followed by his mother but it was a busy, crowded restaurant and I had no idea that there was a child underfoot until I tripped over him.

I have a 21 month old now. I really do not see what is so hard about keeping children in their highchairs. Dd is spirited and loud, but with just a little advanced planning and checking to make sure we are not setting her up for trouble (like no nap, overstimulated, ill, etc....) we have never had a problem that was not easy to fix. Only once or twice have we had to leave and get our food packed to go. She was disappointed to leave the fun of the crowd and the endless cups of ice and quickly learned what behavior gets us all (self) kicked out.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I don't feel it is safe. I suppose you can debate all day whether or not our culture is unfriendly to children or whether parents have a right to eat out at a nice place sometimes. Really I think both those issues are trumped by the fact that a 3-foot tall person can be easily missed from view by someone carrying a tray of food. It's not safe for the child or for the wait person or for the other diners. We like to go out to eat as much as the next family, I'm sure, but we choose restaurants that have a high noise level and one of us takes DS out on the sidewalk if necessary until the food comes. We also bring a lot of little toys and snacks he doesn't usually get. He is 20 months old and IMO not at all developmentally ready for the concept of sitting quietly.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homemademomma*
thats it right there- thats the problem with the US. no matter how much we preach family values, we just dont walk the walk. its an adult society, and we make no allowances for families. its very sad.

I agree. Most Americans are not terribly nice to their own kids and barely tolerate other people's. I'm not saying that's the norm on MDC by any stretch, but I think it's a common cultural practice to be highly critical of and easily bothered by children.

That said, I tend to go to the same few family friendly restaurants all the time, and if we go elsewhere we go verty early, before it gets busy. I know people complain about kids in restaurants all the time and my SIL who waited tables for years complained about parents letting kids run amok. Granted, that SIL left her 3 week old baby with family for a 2 days to get "some time off" and complained that people held her 6 week old baby too much and he'd gotten spoiled- so I can't say she likes children all that much.

Anyway- I know people complain a lot about it- but I haven't seen it mysekf. There;'s one restaurant we go to where kids totally run amok- but that's the whole point of the restaurant. The foods not great and kinda overpriced, byut it's understood thaqt other than flat out running and knocking people over kids are welcome to act like kids.

The US is not a kid friendly place. We expect our restaurants to follow suit.

Children belong at playgrounds and segregated into little areas. Mothers should be forced to spend all their time in "kid places." Old people should be kept in separate homes so we don't have to see their decline. The elderly are at least as in-the-way as kids, yet it's slightly less pc to complain about them showing up at restaurants,


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday*
Really I think both those issues are trumped by the fact that a 3-foot tall person can be easily missed from view by someone carrying a tray of food. It's not safe for the child or for the wait person or for the other diners. .

Oh yeah, and "small people" shouldn't be allowed either, someone could trip.

(I'm not sure what the correct term is for people with dwarfism and other short stature.)


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

I disagree about the "little people" comment. It's not necessarily about size, but awareness. A toddler wouldn't understand the danger of being underfoot like that, but a little person would and act accordingly. I don't think anyone here said children shouldn't be allowed in restaurants, just that there is a potential for harm. I worked at a family-friendly brunch joint for years and we had crayons and colouring books galore. I also brought in stickers. I would always ask the child(ren) what they would like to order, if age appropriate. That said, I would also ask parents not to let their child to run around due to the potential for harm.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
That's great that you do not have a high needs toddler! Unfortunatly WE DO! And up until just the last few weeks if WE wanted to go out to dinner HE had to come to and it's just not fare for us to NOT go out EVER in TWO YEARS... so chase him around is what we did. He's now doing really well staying with his Gram or his Great Gram or Grandpa so we can have a "run free" dinner every once in a while.

?????You do not know my HIGH NEEDS toddler now, do you?I don't think high need children should be allowed to just do whatever.......








Not saying it is ever bad for kids to run around, provide it is a SAFE environment where they will not be bothering others. But you know, most places we go to eat are near busy streets and downtown areas where dh and dd can go walking, have fun and not bother anybody.We also take dd everywhere with us so she is used to going places where adults are.
I like to keep her safe as much as possible.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Oh yeah, and "small people" shouldn't be allowed either, someone could trip.

Where did I say children shouldn't be allowed in restaurants?

As FancyD points out, an adult "little person" has spatial awareness and can avoid hazards on his or her own. A typical toddler just doesn't pay that kind of attention.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Count me in with those who just think letting a small child run around a restaurant is dangerous. Aside from the fact that it could be annoying to other diners - and I have to say, even in family-friendly restaurants, I find it annoying - it would be very easy for a collision to occur with a server carrying hot food or glass dishes.

It can be very, very hard to go to a restaurant with a toddler. And you might have to keep your restaurant meals down to a minimum until he gets to an age where he's more capable of staying in his seat. That's just the way it is.

I never let my daughter walk around restaurants. Period. If she couldn't sit in her seat, we wouldn't stay, or one of us would take her outside for a little breather. We brought along lots of things to keep her occupied - crayons, little figurines, etc. We brought small snacks for her to eat while waiting for the food. But mostly, we just didn't go out to eat very much from the time she was 18 months until she was about 2 1/2.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Hi Robin-nice to see you over here!

To answer the question, not only do I agree that is is unsafe, it also bothers me because if my children see another child running around the resturant, they will want to follow suit. I do have a high needs child, but we have taken her out since she was 2 weeks old so she knows the social rules for resturants. If she gets rowdy, I take her in the bathroom until she calms down. We also eat at a resturant that has outdoor seating and a little play area alot, she loves it! But, it's so hard for her to control her impluses at times, and if she sees another kid running or hears them screaming, she will want to join in because it looks like fun to her.


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## MamaFae (Sep 24, 2004)

I have to say we have done many of the things suggested. First we have taught our boys the "resturant rules" from a very very early age. Thinks like we sit in our chairs, don't climb under the table (except to get a dropped crayon), we don't throw anything let alone food, we use our napkins not our shirts, and we ask for things instead of reaching across the table. We use inside voices (something that is norm for them at home, in the car, or anywhere else deemed "inside"), and we don't play with our food.

We always pack extra "entertainment" for the kids and have created games and such that can be played while seated nicely at the table. We ask for crackers or fruit to be brought early, and divy it out in little bits to make it last as long as possible.

Having said that, if one of my kids would get ansy or upset for what ever reason, DH or I would get up and take them for a walk. Point out pictures on the walls (usually not directly over another diner's table though), and look at the decor. We would check out the lobby, locate the restrooms, or any other places of interest. BUT they entire time they are out of their seats and we are not entering or exiting the resturant we are holding hands and they are right next to me, or they are in my arms. This is precisely so that they do not create a trip hazard for other diners or the waitstaff. I can control their location and watch for the waitstaff this way.

Even with all of this there have been times when we have had to box our food up and take it to go. And there have been times when we just ordered to go in the first place if we knew that the current phase in development would not allow for pleasent dining!

I think it is irresponsible for parents to put their kiddos in a situation where they are bound to fail and be riddled with no's the during the entire experience. It exhausts the parents, and IMO hurts the kids. There is a time and a place for learning to eat out, and if your kiddo isn't in that place order your food to go and enjoy the same meal in the comfort of your own home. Still less clean up and no prepartion! In the end each child is different and hits phases of being incapable of sitting still for that long at different ages. It is important IMO to know your own child's limits and respect them. In doing that you will also teach them to respect others.

Blessings,
N~


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I have a 21 month old now. I really do not see what is so hard about keeping children in their highchairs. Dd is spirited and loud, but with just a little advanced planning and checking to make sure we are not setting her up for trouble (like no nap, overstimulated, ill, etc....) we have never had a problem that was not easy to fix. Only once or twice have we had to leave and get our food packed to go. She was disappointed to leave the fun of the crowd and the endless cups of ice and quickly learned what behavior gets us all (self) kicked out.

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with this idea. Apparently your DD is not as physical as some kids are - not to say she isn't just as spirited in her own way, but there's no way you would be saying this if your DD was like mine. No way. My DD has refused to stay in the highchair for as long as she's been big enough to sit in them. I mean, maybe for about 8 minutes or so, but that's it. And for as long as she's been mobile - since 8 months and she's now 12 - she hasn't wanted to be held in our laps either. We don't go out much because of it. When we do, I usually walk around with her outside or in the lobby in between ordering and receiving our food. Once it gets to us, we eat FAST. :LOL Do you honestly believe it's because we just don't plan carefully enough? We go when she isn't tired, preferably when it's not too busy, we take lots of toys. It just doesn't matter. My DD doesn't even want to sit in the high chair at home for more than about 8 minutes. She eats while sitting on the floor sometimes. Some kids just don't like to be contained no matter what kind of toys you provide them.

IRT the OP's question....Well, obviously I can totally understand where you're coming from. However, I do try to take her either into the lobby or outside. I would worry about a server spilling something on her if we were weaving in and out of the tables. Also, it isn't so much the toddler wandering around that would bother me, but an adult wandering in between the tables would kind of make me feel like my privacy (such as it is in a restaurant) was being invaded. KWIM?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Richelle, I think we actually agree with each other. We eat out very infrequently so the couple of times we have had to leave actually represents a few months that eating in restaurants was impossible. It has only been recently that dd has figured out resturants can be fun and has been willing to sit in the chair in order to get to go out to eat with us. You know your kid better than anyone. For my dd, a little planning on schedule and what I have on hand can make the difference between a somewhat-annoying-typical-meal-with-a-toddler experience and a nightmare. All I am saying is that if the only way we could eat in a restaurant is to allow dd to wander (and I do not mean a chaperoned trip to the lobby, restroom, fishtank, etc....) then that is an indicator that dd is not ready to eat out and we will just be setting us all up to fail. Maybe we are too rigid, but that is the rule with us and dd knows it. She is to sit in her chair (with the exception of the before mentioned trip to the fishtank when applicable) or we order take-out. No one resents each other and I do not have to negotiate on her safety in order to eat out.


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## Lyci (Feb 10, 2004)

Ds has to stick by the table and not run around. It's hard for the kids that "have to" stay in their seat to see other kids down and having fun. One entertaining thing that ds loves is playing with ice on the table. Yes, it's wet and messy but he's having fun and not disturbing anyone. We also let him play under the table, and that for some reason is very entertaining for him??


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

I just read through this thread and for a minute i forgot i was on MDC







Some of the attitudes reguarding this issue are really disheartening









#1 If you were following the child around and he/she wasnt making a nuisance of themselves.....grabbing food off plates, hiding under other peoples tables, then whats the big deal? I think that would be fine. I think as a mother you probably have enough common sense to keep your child out of a dangerous situation, like if they were running and might crash into a waitress. So no, you are not "that" mother, who would rather ignore her child running crazy in a busy restaurant so she can finish arguing with her husband about sending back cold fajitas.

#2 If i want to go out to eat, i'm not going to be held hostage at home by a 2 yr. old, nor do i think any other parent should be. If we can enjoy ourselves with her there, even with a little extra work or planning, then so be it. If its just going to be a big PITA, then i'll stay home and go another time. But i think its rediculous for me to stay home because my toddler isnt capable of understanding the dynamics of table manners or the expectations of how other people think my toddler should act. If i want to go to some hoity-toity expensive restaurant then why would i take her anyway?

#3 I am absolutely appalled to hear someone say children are not equal members of society! Would you say that to a 17 yr old? How in the world can you even say that? What about a mentally disabled person who has no capacity to do the things you mentioned (vote, buy cigarettes) are they not equal members of society!? What about children who do amazing things before the age of 18, things that really impact their communities, like neighborhood cleanups and volunteering to help the homeless and raising money for medical research....are these kids not equal members of society?!

I think a lot of this falls under the "children should be seen and not heard" philosophy, and if so, times are changing. In my opinion, i'm not changing what i do to suit someones outdated paradigm of how toddlers should act in restaurants. I'm a responsible parent and i watch out for my childs safety, but if she gets tired of sitting then a stroll is needed, and i'm respectful of the other patrons and try to teach her to be as well. Its a learning experience......"I get to get up and walk around a bit but i cant bother other people" If someone has a problem as we walk by their table and she gives a cute little wave, then that's their problem and misconstrued perception, not mine.

Sorry if my writing is full of spelling errors and run-on's, i'm a little fired up if you cant tell


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I agree that children have the same human rights as adults. But where do you draw the line when it comes to overstepping other people's boundaries? Again, I agree that being responsible and following or holding the hand of a child in a non-traffic area while they roam is fine. I couldn't care less about the kid being near my table or waving.....my concern is strictly with safety. And for many people, especially people who have never waited tables, it is hard to understand what is safe and what is not. Just because you are 5 feet behind toddler and making sure they are not bothering someone does not mean that a waiter will know that toddler is on the floor five feet away. I have seen it many times and as I posted earlier, I tripped and could have seriously hurt a supervised child. The mother was maybe 10 feet behind following the toddler. She was doing "everything right" according to some people on this thread. I would have the same problem if all or most adults felt that wandering around the restaurant randomly was an OK thing to do. It is not safe, it makes waitstaff less efficient, and yes, it does bother some people. You say you would not take your child to a shmancy restaurant but many many people do. Myself included.... We have just recently been forced to take dd to a fancy place as part of a family obligation. We set her up as well as we could in advance, packed as many distractions as we could, got ice, olives, and pickles from the bar, took her to see the fish when she started talking too loud, and was 100% ready to leave if it came down to that or letting her wander. Imagine paying $100 for your meal and having an adult wandering around the tables, waving at you, maybe asking a question, looking at your shoes, trying to get a cracker that dropped under your table. Of course everyone should give kids more leeway and of course I feel for those parents that are stuck in a restaurant with a kid that does not want to follow the social rules of our society during that meal. But if you know your kid is going to do it each and every single time, why subject your child, yourslef, and the other patrons to it? Take toddler to family freindly places to practice for a while until he figures it out.

And it cracks me up that I am even arguing this side. Just a couple months ago we went on vacation and were pretty much forced to eat in the schmany restaurant in the bottom level of out hotel for breakfast every morning. We were time zones away from home and dd was ready to eat WAY before normal restaurants opened so we had to use the very very fancy breakfast that wa sinlcuded in our room (they started serving at 6am their time). She was really great every morning and on our last day a couple was lead into the same eating area as us. The woman very loudly proclaimed that she did not want to be seated near "that baby". We were the only people with any sort of children in the hotel so it was very clear who she was talking about. I was really offended that she did not even give dd a chance. Dd stayed in her chair for the entire meal, used low voices, and did not make a mess. But to be frank, enough people DO let thier kids annoy other patrons (and by annoy I do not mean waving, making small messes, or talking loudly) that it gives us all a bad rep.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Yoopervegan - you're right. I was too defensive because I have been hearing almost the exact same statement, "What's so hard about getting her to sit in a highchair?" from people who *don't* mean it in a reasonable way. So, when you said almost the same thing, I reacted as if you *meant* the same thing, when obviously that is not the case. Am I making any sense?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Yes, you make sense


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am not saying don't take your child out to eat (unless of course you really can't think of anything else to do but wander through the resteraunt) but realy it is not polite or safe to let her wonder in and out of the dining area. Tere are plentyof other places to run around and play where she can be safe and not disruptive to dining patrons. but this coming from a former waitress who won't even let her child *sit* near the isle because something could come flying or popping at her.

and if you must move through the resteraunt be sure your child is either in your arms or holding your hand for thier saftey and for the saftey of others. and I don't know if you comment about coffee in your hand was serious or joking but never walk around with hot liquids. what are you going to do with that coffee if you h ave to lunge after your child. at least make sure your hands are free and you atention is very focused.

and I am not saying that well behaved children don't belong in resteraunts (and for the record I think ill behaved adults should also not be in resteraunts or other public places) and I have a lot more tolerance for children than adults. but at the same time some people go out to eat and relax and get away from the stress of children. respect that.


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

I know that there are some who really push it and who's kids have annoyed me while out to eat. But i honestly dont think that was what the OP was refering to. I too am a former waitress from a very busy, fast-passed expensive steakhouse, and I've been around lots of small kids in these type settings, my own included.
From the post, I took it that she was following around her toddler who got bored in a restaurant, enjoying her coffee as she meandered around. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I dont let my kids have the run of whatever place we choose to be, but i'm also not going to forgo the one meal out in a blue moon that i may get because i have to spend 5 min. walking around with a toddler. I'm also not going to expect her to stay in her seat and "act like a proper young lady" at the age of 2, because i really think its outside her cappabilities.

I think if more people (you know the ones who give dirty looks and all) would remember what its like to have a 2 yr old and to be dying to get out of the house with your husband for a nice meal, it wouldnt be such a big deal.
I know on several occations I have really wanted to offer to sit close to some young couple who looks fried from parenting and finally trying to get out only to have a baby make a big fuss, so that maybe i could play with the baby a little and give them a few moments peace. But i've always thought they would think that was incredibly weird since things like that arent the norm here in the states


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robinna*
Would it bother you to see a parent with a coffee cup following a laughing running toddler (20m) around a restaurant?

Yes.

Would it bother me to see a laughing, _walking_ toddler holding mom's hand and cruising through the restaurant? No. Resturants are not places to run in, for all the aforementioned reasons. If your toddler needs to run, take him outside or to a closed section of the restaurant.

When my daughter was just learning to walk (9 months), she was creamed by a 2-year-old who was careening through the restaurant. His mom was behind him, but she wasn't quick enough to catch him before he flattened my kid, who was climbing down from the booth so we could put on coats and leave. The other mom was superficially apologetic but tried to pull the "kids get bored in restaurants, what can you do?" line, as though because I also had a young child, I was fine with the idea of letting a small child run through a crowded space full of other people.

I'm not fine with that. Call me kid-unfriendly if you like. Kids should not be allowed to run in places where it's a nuisance and a danger to others. Neither should adults.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaiamom*
I think as a mother you probably have enough common sense to keep your child out of a dangerous situation, like if they were running and might crash into a waitress.

The OP did indeed describe her child as "running" though the restuarant.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Ps. If you did have to act quickly to protect your son or keep him from tripping up someone else, what would happen to that coffe cup in your hand?

Namaste!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Another vote for no, I'd never let DD run around. I have a friend who was horribly burnt as a child (mom accidentaly spilled hot oil on her while cooking) and so I am SO paranoid.

With DD, we always just took her out of the restaurant while waiting when she was at the on-the-go age. Now she's fine at restaurants, though we do plan to go when she's not too tired.

ETA: DH and I have always gone out knowing that we might have to leave if it gets to be too much for DD . . .it has never come to that, but I think it took pressure off of all of us just knowing we COULD go home if it got too hard.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I'd be curious to hear from more Europeans on this subject. I am Canadian and many of my friends from Europe have counselled me that I should make sure my two old son knows how to eat and sit properly when out in a restaurant. From what my European friends told me - yes, children go out everywhere with their parents but they are also expected to act in a more adult fashion (as opposed to the behaviour you'd see in a North American fast food restaurant - running around and eating Happy Meals). Just curious what other Europeans do?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Tuesday, I am American but I did live in Belgium for a while. What I experienced was much like what you described. Kids are expected to sit quietly in restaraunts, and there are not kids' meals. Kids eat what adults eat.

Namaste!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

dharma - it is intresting that you pointed out that there are no kids meals. One of the ways we help our children behave is by ordering them real food and not finger food. This goes a long way towards keeping them busy and making it feel like a real meal, not a happy meal.We don't allow toys once the food comes (just like we don't allow toys at the table at home). I guess the other thing we do is really work on table manners at home too. they aren't alowed to get up run around during meals. For us meals are social and we want everyone to be able to interact socially. what fun is going out to eat if mom and baby are running around while dad is alone at the table? I guess I want my children to learn at the earlyiest possible age that it is more fun it be at the table and a part of that action. we start grooming them for manners at birth.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

My views on this subject are most in line with yoopervegan's.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

:


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## beanandpumpkin (Jan 2, 2005)

I also bring my kids outside if they can't sit still in the restaurant. Though, really, we have been teaching them proper restaurant decorum since they were small so it's not usually a terribly pressing issue. We do bring a small toy (like little cars or a mini magnadoodle) and most restaurants have crayons and paper for the kids to color, we tolerate a fair amount of noise, and don't allow yelling, and there is absolutely no running around. Even besides the obvious safety concerns, it's just plain rude to the otehr diners in the restaurant.

HOnestly, if I arranged childcare and planned a "date night" out with my husband and someone was letting their two year old run around the restaurant we were in, I'd complain to the staff and ask to have our seats changed. No one wants their meal interrupted by someone else's adorable child. My own adorable children run around our house and wreak havoc all day, I don't want to see someone else's kid doing it in a restaurant in the evening, you know?


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

honestly? yes, it would bother me.

there are situations in which i think a child "running around" a restaurant is okay, but they are few and far between.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I think it's fine if:

1. You're eating there outside the dinner/lunch rush, and request a table away from the kitchen.

2. It's a restaurant appropriate for children who have not yet learned table manners. (e.g. Don Pablo's, Applebee's, local diner at 4 pm, okay, Le Chic et Tres Cher Cuisinery at any time of day, no)

3. If dc's actually "running" so that you can't keep up by doing a brisk walk, you need to take dc by the hand and help dc wander more slowly.

4. When it begins to affect the other people in the restaurant (dc starts using an "outside voice", you might get in the way of the waiters (this is why you should go slower, so you can keep an eye out)) you immediately head outside or return to your table.

One of the reasons I've got no problems with moms and toddlers exploring the restaurant when I'm eating is because I assume the mom has the situation entirely under control (plus cuteness







). Any sign that things aren't under control and I'll start to be annoyed.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

I think this depends on the kid and the place.

Loud and exuberant children in family-type restaurants don't bother me at all. I'm thinking your neighborhood joints and the mass market places like Outback, Chili's, Red Robin, etc. Those places practically encourage loudness. Running around bothers me no matter where I am but loudness in these places isn't a big deal. After all, it's not really about the food now, is it? To me, these places are more like belly-filling assembly lines - get 'em in, get 'em fed, get 'em out. Anyone casting a hairy eyeball at a babe having some babe fun probably has higher dining pretensions, you know? Some of the best places now have longer booths so my husband and I can each sit on one side and have the kids toward the wall - they can have all the fun they want but are _contained_. And, of course, if a meltdown comes we get the food wrapped and we're gone - the same courtesy that I'd hope for.

In more foodie-type places I expect that children will be respectful of the environment and that their behaviour will not interfere with the sensory pleasures of the meal itself - including enjoyment of well-modulated conversation. My son could enjoy these kinds of places (not $$$$, but maybe up to $$$) - eat the food, enjoy being with grown-ups, and at age 2 would quietly look at a picture book or run a toy car around. We could take him anywhere and he went to some GREAT restaurants. It was awesome.

Now we have this other child, see, and we're not going _anywhere_ for a while that's not your basic Applebee's-type experience. She won't eat, won't sit for longer than three minutes, tries to eat her crayons, throws food at other people and so on we just don't go out much with her - and won't until her development gets to the point where she's not a menace. Her brother got to that place earlier than most, she seems to be fairly late. She'll get there and, once she does, we'll start enjoying better restaurants again.

Anyway, I think that discussions of _fair_ are misplaced. A child who can or cannot eat a meal out at a given age is more likely just a matter of the hand you are dealt. There's no choice but to cope with it as best you can, choose your places wisely.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Holy toledo, did I open a can o' worms or what! Go away for a couple of days...

Ah well. If we figure that this group is pretty much representative of all the possible opinions in any given restaurant, I guess I'm "that parent" to some of them and to others just the tired mum of a very cute spirited toddler (who never stops to talk/swipe food/etc - people actually try to stop HIM to say hello).

I'm not talking about dressy restaurants. We save the big bucks for our "dates" LOL

Thanks for the input everybody!

Edited to add: Hi Brandi!!! Good to see you too! Hugs to you and your girls! xo


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Chalupa - if you wouldn't let her fill up on the crayons she would probably have room for her meal







jk


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
Chalupa - if you wouldn't let her fill up on the crayons she would probably have room for her meal







jk

Wait...the wax isn't roughage? What if they're Stockmar crayons? Or beeswax with....*vegetable* coloring? Even then it's not a good idea? Well, we'll just have to let her eat paper then, because she's gonna eat something and I'll bet dollars to donuts on any given night that it won't be actual _food_.


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

Ok, I realize this is getting a little old but I still wanted to add my 2 cents. Yes it would probably bother me a little, one because of the coffee mug and two because it could probably be handled better with some outside "running" than indoor. But I feel some of posts have been overly harsh about it. I don't think anything is wrong with you getting up with your son when he can't bear the waiting portions of the evening. It not my favorite thing to see and I do feel it can be unsafe but I've seen much worse things in restaurants. I have seen a few drunken people wandering out from the bar area yelling/cursing, throwing things, and causing a ruckus and having to be escorted out or the police having to be called and I must say I'd rather see a laughing child anyday. And the "I paid good money for this meal" stuff doesn't sit right with me, the aforementioned drunks surely 'spent good money' getting that way likely even more than I spent on my meal but that doesn't entitle them to the experience of their choice and no one would dare imply it does. You can't expect to buy other people's behavior anymore than you can buy yourself out of responsibility for your own. I don't feel it's fair to say I only spent $12 at Taco Bell so it's ok for the kids to run amok but I spent $250+ at The Fondue Pot so they should be the Stepford kids. Unless you're in a bar or casino or someplace where kids literally are not allowed to be, then you can't go somewhere with the expectation that there won't be kids laughing, crying, or playing. And I totally understand the not wanting the meal to be interrupted thing but I don't feel it's a kid specific thing; lots of things can interrupt a meal and it's just a part of going out in public to accept that anything is possible--if you truly expect an dinner date without interruptions you could stay in and higher a caterer or a personal chef, but part of the fun of life is the unexpected moments we could never have planned and would have missed if we had tried to control the whole thing.

We take the kids wherever we go (unless it's a date or we plan to drink alcohol) they've been to semi-formal weddings, late night dinner parties, and $50 a plate restaurants as well as Chuck-E-Cheese, Applebee's and and other "kid-friendly"/"family oriented" places and the standard of behavior we expect is the same regardless of where we are. And despite the fact that I have really high expectations of my kids at the table, I don't feel that it is fair to expect a young child to be able to control themselves for the extended dining period there is at a restaurant. (Besides how would we like to be strapped in one position to our chairs for the course of the evening.) Jase often needed to get out of his chair during long waits, we take him out and walk him around the outside of the restaurant or at certain places take him to the lobby or outside waiting area (depending on which is less crowded) and "dance" to the cheesy music they play for the people waiting for a table. But Ben is content to sit through anything so long as he can people watch other patrons. Crayons and other activities can be great and some kids don't mind sitting still for long periods of time, but other kids need breaks to get up and move around. So I say keep doing what you need to do to make the experence as peaceful as possible for all concerned.

But for the fear...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robinna*
People mostly seem to smile but I worry that we might be disturbing people.

Judging from the assortment of responses here, I say that worry may not be so unfounded. It's entirely possible, some of the smiles are just a polite front I even think I remember reading a post where someone said that they told the mother it was alright even though it wasn't. People are more inhibited in everyday life than they are online so I'd imagine if this is the reading of AP/GD parents that it's probably safe to say it may be even worse in the restaurant, so your instincts are picking up on some of that. On the other hand, some of them are probably smiling because he's cute or because he's laughing and having fun so you can't worry about every smile. I guess the question is: What would you do differently if you _knew_ you were disturbing people? If nothing, then let it go and quit worrying. If you can think of something you think would be better or less disturbing, maybe you could just do it so that you aren't worrying in the first place. Because you really can't change how people are going to feel about anything...


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hello Mothering Fans,

I LOVE children, I smile at them in the grocery stores, at the park, and at family restaurants, I love playing with them and talking to them, but, I find this very rude.

The adults (parents) know full well where children are able to run around without disturbing people: outside, in the lobby, a closed section, or at a "family" eatery, etc.

I find it VERY rude if they pretend not to notice that the dear darling is bothering people at the tables, as a previous poster said.

I had a parent do that with us at a posh coffee shop. People were studying for finals, doing business deals, reading the newspapers, working on things, having adult discussions and carrying hot drinks, etc. A parent was occasionally watching her daughter who was running back and forth, back and forth, back and forth through the middle of the shop, giggling and squealing. She was very cute, and the mother was very rude.

I was tempted to take the child by the hand, get down to eye level and explain that coffee shops aren't for running and playing, they're for sitting, talking and thinking, and maybe MOMMY should take you to the park. I didn't because I didn't want to start a fight, but, we had to leave. I was doing research, my husband was studying for finals and we couldn't think. That's money out of the owners' pocket.

As far as restaurants go, THINK about it from the other diners' point of view. Maybe they are out for an anniversary, a serious talk, a once-a-year treat meal out together, it could be anything. People generally expect that if they go to a real restaurant, they will be able to eat in peace, not be disturbed by others and enjoy their meal.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
That's great that you do not have a high needs toddler! Unfortunatly WE DO! And up until just the last few weeks if WE wanted to go out to dinner HE had to come to and it's just not fare for us to NOT go out EVER in TWO YEARS... so chase him around is what we did. He's now doing really well staying with his Gram or his Great Gram or Grandpa so we can have a "run free" dinner every once in a while.


No, it's not fair.....but not much about being a parent is fair. We didn't dine out for 2 years because of our high needs toddler. I'd tripped over a running toddler and spilled hot soup on him when I was waiting tables. And ofcourse, the parents blamed me, yet they were the ones that wouldnt' take their child outside.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
No, it's not fair.....but not much about being a parent is fair. We didn't dine out for 2 years because of our high needs toddler. I'd tripped over a running toddler and spilled hot soup on him when I was waiting tables. And ofcourse, the parents blamed me, yet they were the ones that wouldnt' take their child outside.

I agree with you. It's not fair, but it's life. We got take-out for two years. We really just didn't go out, or if we did decide to go out on a rare occasion we understood one of us might be sitting in the lobby or outsite with dd for a good part of dinner, or we might have to quickly get our food packaged to leave, or whatever.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Hello Mothering Fans,
I was tempted to take the child by the hand, get down to eye level and explain that coffee shops aren't for running and playing, they're for sitting, talking and thinking, and maybe MOMMY should take you to the park. I didn't because I didn't want to start a fight, but, we had to leave. I was doing research, my husband was studying for finals and we couldn't think. That's money out of the owners' pocket.


Ok this is off topic

but

this drives me absolutely crazy and is so rude. I know how irritated you must have been buy the childs mom not taking care of her and letting her create a disturbance. I feel that irritation. trust me. but if anyone ever has somethins to say to me about my child or my parenting they better have the nerve to say it to my face. nothing in my parenting life has been more irritating than people lokoing at my child and saying "oh your mommy should. . . ." or "you should tell your mommy . . . " infuriating I tell you.

Not to pick on you or anything, seriously but just for future reference. maybe no one has done this to you (yuor child) before but if you are going to have the nerve to judge someones parenting (and sometimes it is totally warrented) at least have the nerve to talk to them about it and not thier child.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hey there, no, you're not picking at all.

I understand your concern, but, I did NOT do it, and wouldn't for the reasons you gave.

I said I FELT like doing it because I was so irritated, and, since the mother figured it was just fine for her child to disrupt strangers for at least 20 minutes and engage them in "conversation" while they were busy, then, perhaps she wouldn't have a problem with me engaging her child in conversation in response?









No, we didn't say anything. We left. I usually speak up when people are being jerks, but, when it comes to kids and moms, things get really heated really fast and I almost always keep my mouth shut and vow to do better in my own life.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

oh wow

i had no idea that so many people would be bothered by this.

when safety is an issue -- busy place, child running too fast that the parent cannot be close enough to have a hand hovering over the child's shoulder, etc, yes, i would not do it, and would be concerned for the child if saw this happening.

otherwise -- a happy child with the parent nearby would not bother me a bit.

this does not mean that i do not model manners to my children or that i imply to them that this kind of a behaviour is the norm. but kids will be kids, and i choose my 'battles' carefully.

when we go out, i do not plan the outing so that the restaurant is empty -- we go out when we want to go out. but then we judge the situation -- if it is really too crowded, we know we won't enjoy it as a family.

this said, i would not be bothered by a screaming toddler either -- i know THINGS HAPPEN. i would not be bothered by a breastfeeding babe / toddler.

i would be bothered if someone yelled or spanked their child. oh yeah. i would be bothered by seeing an unsupervised child -- not because it is interferring with my meal, but because i would be concerned.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
I had a parent do that with us at a posh coffee shop. People were studying for finals, doing business deals, reading the newspapers, working on things, having adult discussions and carrying hot drinks, etc. A parent was occasionally watching her daughter who was running back and forth, back and forth, back and forth through the middle of the shop, giggling and squealing. She was very cute, and the mother was very rude.

Wow--I have to say I completely disagree with you. I would be concerned in this scenario about a child running about while people carry hot beverages, but the giggling and squealing? Let me just say that I worked at a coffee shop for five years and the expectation by some that it should be kept at library-type noise levels for their benefit was totally unreasonable. You want quiet for studying, go to a library. You want quiet for a business meeting, rent a conference space. A gaggle of high school or college students "studying" could be louder than a toddler or two any day.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Okay, I'm seeing some sort of logical fallacy at work here...

At least... Some variation thereof...

Now, discounting that our society may or may not be too uptight w/regard to children, BUT all of us having a basic understanding of what is considered appropriate by the vast majority of the population:

Agreed: Certain child is too young to sit reasonably still long enough to have a meal of X-level of formality (could be a family restaurant, could be more formal).

Most Agree, Though Some Dispute: Anyone, child or not, walking or running around said restaurant, is inappropriate. Certainly all agree that this would be odd and/or inappropriate for adults. (Note: "inappropriate" does not = "bad," IMO)

Therefore:

Opinion #1: One either avoids said restaurants until there is a reasonable chance that child will be able to behave appropriately, or *tries* to visit restaurant with child, but leaves if expected behavior is not achievable by child. Child is not required to sit politely with hands folded in lap, conversing with adults-- BUT must be able to enjoy restaurant without *needing* to be excessively loud, wander the floor of the restaurant itself-- with or without guardian, etc.

Opinion #2: Because child is too young to behave appropriately in the setting, he should be allowed to behave inappropriately. Others should understand that the child is a child, and not unfairly require him to do anything which he is not developmentally able to do.

--

Frankly, I just do not get #2. And I am not talking about strict, authoritarian parenting, here. Perhaps the proponents of #2 are lobbying for a change in the way we view the behavior, arguing that we should not see it as inappropriate-- but I still disagree.

Certain venues require a degree of sophistication that *most* children have not mastered. If your 2-year-old can enjoy a 5-course state dinner-- heck, even a dinner at Applebee's!-- with the corresponding modicum of politesse, then more power to you! We are not talking about you, then. But if your child cannot sit still for more than a minute or two, WAIT-- if at all possible-- WAIT to take him out to a nice dinner. (Whatever he can handle).

Of *course* adults should make certain concessions to children, even in adult settings. It would be inappropriate for an adult to read a book or color at the table while his companions conversed, but not necessarily so for a child (in all but the most formal of settings). Likewise, drooling, eating non-finger food with one's hands, changing seats, etc. are reasonable when children do them, but not adults.

But at some point, it may become clear that no amount of reasonable concession is going to make the situation work. At which point, your order becomes to-go, and you rethink any non-mandatory restaurant outings for the near future.

Several people point out that they have to deal with inappropriate behvior from adults, too. Gabbing loudly on a cell phone, public drunkenness, disgusting table manners, etc. To which I say: "and your point is?" Those things are rude and inappropriate. But since when should rudeness beget rudeness? Just because those things are not uncommon and are sometimes tolerated (perhaps frequently, as many employees are not allowed to comment on them), does not mean that you or your child have free reign to do something equally inappropriate.

Otherwise it's just: "That woman was nasty to me!" "Well, I hope you were nasty right back!"

What does *that* teach our children?

I may indeed witness inappropriate behavior from adults, but that does not mean I will allow it in my children-- not willfully, anyway.

Further, I will address this, from CJNeely:

Quote:

I don't feel it's fair to say I only spent $12 at Taco Bell so it's ok for the kids to run amok but I spent $250+ at The Fondue Pot so they should be the Stepford kids.
I don't think it's a matter of $$, but it is a matter of formality level.

Fast Food: No table service, no waiters roaming the floor. No or few utensils. Easily cleaned floor and tables/chairs. Entire mealtime expected to last 10-25 minutes. Possible *active* amusements provided specifically for the children. Main requirement for attire is shirt and shoes.

$50+/person Restaurant: Quiet music, soft lighting. Roaming waiters with hot food and possibly sharp implements. Less durable seating. Entire mealtime expected to last 1-3 hours. Perhaps a coloring book of some kind is provided, but probably not. Somewhat formal attire may be required.

Is there not a major difference here? Wouldn't we *all* behave somewhat differently in each of these environments? Except that we would use a bare minimum of polite table manners at both?

That's the other problem I have with the above argument. I think it is inappropriate for a child to "run amok" *anywhere*, *including* Taco Bell. Children should be expected to use manners at a reasonable level for their ages, such as sitting while eating, using a napkin, not burping loudly and purposefully (depending on their ages).

However, I do think that the fast food environment is more forgiving, as no one has to deal with a squirmy toddler for long, and it's an open-- and loud-- enough space to accomodate toddling and squealing children. HOWEVER, I don't believe that ANY child should be allowed to scream incessantly, run around willy-nilly, or throw things, etc. in any venue other than those expressly designed for that purpose, such as a playground, amusement park, possibly Chuck E. Cheese, etc.

I *also* don't believe that your "running amok" child should be forced to act like a "Stepford child" in any restaurant. If he is too young to behave reasonably maturely in a formal restaurant, though, he is too young to be in that restaurant. Not a condemnation, just a fact, in line with Opinion #1, above.

Acknowledging that our children are too young for certain activities is a big part of GD. It's not a negative judgement on them! It helps us set them up for success! Why anyone would have a problem with that, I do not know.

Finally:

Quote:

(Besides how would we like to be strapped in one position to our chairs for the course of the evening.)
Once again, this sets up a false dichotomy.

First, we *are* expected to be "strapped in one position" for the course of the evening at nice restaurants (and even more casual places)-- with the exception of bathroom breaks, to which a toddler is just as entitled.

Second, I think it is a reasonable accomodation to allow a child to sit in one's lap for part of the time, and even to take him or her outside or out of the way for a bit, when possible-- even at a fairly fancy restaurant.

Third, children are not adults. This is why they are not allowed to make many of their own choices, even when parents are not at *all* authoritarian. Even TCS parents must guide their children quite a bit when they are very young, and do not allow them to *freely* choose *any* option, like, say, drinking antifreeze.

In addition, adults are not children. This is why we do not find it charming when adults say "I am better than everyone else at singing!" or tolerate adults with full bladder and bowel control expecting to have their diapers changed. Likewise, we would find roaming adults inappropriate in nearly any restaurant.

That was awfully long, but I hope I have been clear. We should absolutely respect our children, but we should also respect ourselves and our fellow diners, et al. And, while it is often useful to consider "would I say/do that to an adult? If not, why would I say/do that to my child?"-- it is not *always* a question that should be answered in the negative.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Chuck E Cheese (with exceptions...see below) is the ONLY place it is appropriate to let a Toddler roam, laugh, play etc..

Anywhere else is NOT acceptable (even kid friendly restaurants) UNLESS they have a playground "outback" like Joe's Crab Shack, McDonald's, Burger King. etc...it is simply too dangerous and they can get themselves killed.

I DO have a Toddler who would upset the waitstaff, go up to other's tables and play with their utensils and upset their dinner...

and I stay home. If DH and I want to dine out we call Mom and ask her to babysit

By Age 5 (and I'm sure there ARE exceptions), most kids should be able to sit quietly in a restaurant.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I feel lucky that my DD just doesn't care if she's in the highchair for an hour or not. I can take her anywhere and she just loves it. I always bring crayons though...


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

I just wanted to give yet another waitress view...I worked at TGI Friday's and Ponderosa for 4 years. Neither one is the slightest bit formal. I've tripped over and spilled stuff on kids three times.

All three times... I COULDN'T SEE THEM COMING I had NO blessed idea, because it's really hard to see over the tray you are carrying if the person is less than 3 feet tall. The third time, the child was maybe 2-3, and was running around his own table, only out in the aisle a little bit. If I had known there was a child there, I would have been fine because I could have avoided him, but again I COULDN'T SEE HIM OVER MY TRAY. His parents were furious with me, because I "should have been paying more attention". He was fine, got a bit of food on him. I twisted my body to keep the huge tray off of him and seriously hurt my ankle, and almost fell down a short flight of steps. But that's the thing--he was right by his own table, just running in circles around his own table to let off some steam. Perfectly normal 3 year old behavior.

We could look at this as me being un-child-friendly, or that I'm trying to deprive the 3 year old of his rights. And in a loud non-fine-dining restaurant, you'd think it would have been perfectly okay. But that kid really could have been seriously hurt, and I know no one at that restaurant cared, but I *WAS* injured, because he was engaging in perfectly normal 3 year old behavior. And his mom was less than 2 feet from him, and was paying attention to him. But by the time she saw me coming around the corner, and realized he and I were going to collide, she couldn't grab him.

Just my experience...whether or not it irritates other diners (and yes it does...like a pp said, you can decide whether or not it bothers you that it annoys others, but yes you are probably annoying about half the people there) I don't consider it a safe practice.


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
Several people point out that they have to deal with inappropriate behvior from adults, too. Gabbing loudly on a cell phone, public drunkenness, disgusting table manners, etc. To which I say: "and your point is?" Those things are rude and inappropriate. But since when should rudeness beget rudeness? Just because those things are not uncommon and are sometimes tolerated (perhaps frequently, as many employees are not allowed to comment on them), does not mean that you or your child have free reign to do something equally inappropriate.

My point is that lots of behavior in restaurants is rude. It's a given of going on public that there are people who don't behave appropriately. Children should never have free reign to misbehave regardless of where they are. But they certainly aren't the bain of all interrupted meals either, nor the most severe or most dangerous. The OP's specific circumstances have been overlooked by some posters as they take the opportunity to complain about other horrible children they've encountered in restaurants (whose behavior no one would be questioning was inappropriate but really has nothing to do with the OP's question) and acting like children should be relegated to certain locations only. If you're child can't behave in public they need to leave regardless of where it is. But the OP was not asking about a mini-terror streaking through the restaurant getting in the way and stealing food but a child who can't sit through the waiting portions of dinner out and need to get up and move and whether the way she was allowing her son to do it was offensive. Which honestly not everyone actually seemed to want address, too many people wanted to talk more about their own encounters than what was being asked about. And a few posters seemed to have an air of too much hostility about children in restaurants in general to actually think about the mama and child in question.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
I don't think it's a matter of $$, but it is a matter of formality level.

I personally don't see how when someone talks about it being expensive, spending good money, or saving money to have the meal, one can say it's not a matter of $$, but ok.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
That's the other problem I have with the above argument. I think it is inappropriate for a child to "run amok" *anywhere*, *including* Taco Bell.
. . .
I *also* don't believe that your "running amok" child should be forced to act like a "Stepford child" in any restaurant.

I agree and this was my point. That regardless of where it is (even Chuck-E-Cheese) children shouldn't be excused from running amok or expected to act like a Stepford child. They are people too; they have good days and bad days, if they can't handle a situation they should be removed from it. But they shouldn't have to jump through hoops to prove they deserve to be there if they are not disruptive or expected to behave at a higher standard than the adult patrons (ie. the Stepford CHildren remark).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
First, we *are* expected to be "strapped in one position" for the course of the evening at nice restaurants (and even more casual places)-- with the exception of bathroom breaks, to which a toddler is just as entitled.

That's not entirely true we are not belted in our chairs and we can shift ourselves in our seat as we wish rather than sitting in a single position until our lower half is numb, a luxury we would not have in a three point harness.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
We should absolutely respect our children, but we should also respect ourselves and our fellow diners, et al.

I really don't feel the OP doesn't respect her fellow diners, much to the contrary I don't think she'd have asked for opinions on if what she was doing ok if she didn't respect the other people who were there to witness it. She made a decision in the moment that she apparently questioned enough later to ask for a few 'second' opinions, hence her post. And while I may not condone repeating the action in question, I respect and admire her for asking (not to mention for the way she so gracefully took it all as some people ripped into her for other people's unruly children who stole food and tripped up waitresses and other assorted possibilites) and really wish more people could have suggested possible solutions/alternatives instead of just possible disasters. If feel like she posted a query as a mama was unsure of herself and want help (or even reassurance) and was not responded to as such. What kills me is most threads I've read here are not like this and she apparently touched on a hot button topic for some people that made it hard to look at her situation for the forest of situations it made them think of. And I'm very sorry I turned into such a provoked lioness but I get overly defensive when I feel like someone's being ganged up on.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

CJ--

I don't think we are too far apart on this, but I would like to note that I, too, am not talking about "horrible" children "running amok," for the most part.

I was addressing this topic holistically, including the protests of some parents here who seemed to have Opinion #2, as described above.

I agree that the OP was brave and right to pose this query to others, but my response to her OP remains the same as I described above.

Let's take a look at what she wrote:

Quote:

Would it bother you to see a parent with a coffee cup following a laughing running toddler (20m) around a restaurant?
The answer, for me, as well as many others, is YES.

Now, that doesn't mean her child is an ill-behaved hellion-- nor would I see her child that way. But it would bother me, and I do think it is inappropriate, especially assuming this is a sit-down restaurant.

A "laughing, running toddler" running "around a restaurant" is a problem. Not mitigated by the parent with the coffee cup behind him or her-- probably worsened, in some ways.

That doesn't mean I think the OP is a bad parent or a terrible human being. Not even a little bit.







But my answer remains the same.

I agree that rudeness and inappropriate behavior is, to some extent, to be expected, if not "tolerated"-- whether it comes from an adult or a child.

Therefore, I am not the least bit shocked when I encounter something like the OP described-- or even much, much worse.

But just because it doesn't surprise me doesn't mean I think it's okay. I'm sure you agree.

And the fact that it's not the "worst" thing out there? It's still a problem.

I don't care if it's not the "worst" one.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Oh, and I did want to add...

If we assume that most children do not walk until at least 12 months, and that they can sit in a booster by 24-30 months, then most mobile children are *not* "strapped down"-- or at least, they don't *have* to be.

And those who are can still shift in their seats a bit. Not to say that it's the *most* fun thing for a 20-month-old, but that's just another reason why they should not be *frequenting* sit-down restaurants, FTMP.

In any event, as most of us have stated, no one here has a problem letting the child sit on mom's lap for a while, or walking outside, if he or she is antsy.

Just not around the restaurant.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I already do with my now 8 mo. old what I would do when he's older as well. First of all, if I can, I leave him with Grandma now because he just discovered he can crawl---fast and EVERYWHERE and that is what he wants to do ALL THE TIME. (this is just in the last couple weeks)
Or get takeout because I can eat at home and let him do what he wants to do.

If he does go to the restaurant, he sits in the highchair on on a lap, he has toys and maybe a teething cookie, and he might get walked around while we wait for food. (He's not walking yet obviously, so this is adult who can watch out for people walking with baby.) He doesn't get walked if it's busy, and we don't usually hit 'busy' times. And if we do give him food, we make sure it doesn't end up on the floor. (not a thrower yet, but a dropper) I've gotten up and picked up after him.
I have the same expectations for him when he's older--he either needs to be able to handle the restaurant with age-appropriate toys and maybe a walk to somewhere out of the way if we need to wait awhile for our food, and behave appropriately while eating (table manners, no throwing food, not making an unnecessary mess) or it's our job as the adults to accept the fact that he's not ready for dining at that restaurant and to keep working on manners at mealtime at home and try it again in a few months.
He will NOT be allowed to crawl around under tables, walk around and bother other diners, etc. no matter what his age or where we are. Even Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald's have play areas--sit at a table next to it! Saying 'oh he's only....(insert age here)' and allowing it teaches *nothing* IMO other than it's OK to act like that in public.

Another thing that works well with my preschoolers (especially the older ones, 4 and up) is to go over the rules that apply to a situation before getting into it, and what will happen if they do/don't follow the rules. Then stick to it--if you went over no running, no throwing food, etc. and they do it, remind them *once* and if they don't change the behavior, follow through with the consequence--for me, it would be that we're packing up the food and going home. They'll learn quickly that if they want to go out to eat, they need to behave appropriately.

Nothing wrong with kids walking in a lobby, or playing (including noise) in a play area, or even being louder in say, a Chuck E Cheese than a nice sit-down place.
No matter *where* you are, IMO, kids don't need to run/wander where they might be tripped over, go up to other tables, crawl on dirty floors, or throw food or make a huge mess with their food. (well, babies and toddlers are naturally messy eaters, but I'm talking above and beyond normal, and about intent. Kids spill things, that's accidental. Playing with the ketchup isn't.) It's about teaching respect for others (*somebody* has to clean up that mess, and maybe the people at the next table found a sitter so they could have a nice little date) and safety. And the fact that it's just gross to let a kid crawl around under a table.....who knows what's under there? If they find say, a fry, they're likely to eat it....eww.

basic rule of thumb, if you wouldn't let them do it at say, a big holiday dinner at home, they shouldn't do it in a restaurant either.
And to me, part of being a mom is accepting there's some things I might not be able to do right now because of where my child is developmentally. Just last week, the only reason he wasn't screaming at Ruby Tuesday because daddy held and played with him the entire time. Would NOT sit in the highchair. (A month ago, highchairs were cool. Now they're not.)

I just learned that for the next while, unless Grandma will watch DS, we will not be eating in a nice restaurant--he just can't sit that long, and he's not old enough yet to eat anything with us that they'd have. Cheerios and a teething biscuit only go so far. (and a lot of things that maybe an 8 mo old COULD have, I don't give him because of problems with dairy.)
Maybe when he is a little older and can eat more with us, he'll enjoy it. We'll test the theory at home first.







(he is fine sitting and eating soft finger foods and with me feeding him, but he makes a HUGE mess, most of what he eats would be a mashed-into-the-carpet mess in a restaurant, (good eater, but like any baby, he drops food) and he likes to steal the spoon and make a big mess that way too, so I generally don't try to feed him a 'meal' in a restaurant....)


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

OK OK

While visiting my relatives in Denmark, we were at one fancy family restaurant that had a SEPARATE ROOM with a lego table. The kids would go between the lego table in another room and the parents' table. They had a space to themselves, also I noticed that they were expected to respect other diners, meaning - screaming, running and general misbehavior was not to be tolerated. This wasn't done in a nasty way, just an expectation that kids are not the center nor on the margin of the society they are INTEGRATED. This is my belief. If the eating establishment is one where kids are integrated and welcome, that there is a designated kid space then its cool. I waited until my dd was able to sit for a short period of time before we brought her to big time restaurants. We started at chinese restaurants.

I also have waited tables too many years to count and even with some people I know, they have allowed their kids to disrupt diners. Kids (older and toddlers) wrestling on a floor is imho, just not acceptable. It's not about kids not having rights, or being treated like pariahs, it's about respect and consideration for the group, for the community. One of the ways children can learn about community is how to behave so that they can enjoy themselves but not disrupt and learn the ever-obnoxious "entitlement" symndrome.

Cheers


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Here's what I think it all comes down to though---kids will *not* put on sudden 'good manners' for a restaurant. It has to start at home, being expected to sit at the table for a length of time reasonable for their age, to eat with manners appropriate for their age, etc.
If they're allowed to get by with things at home, nobody should be surprised to see that behavior in a restaurant.

The other thing that *really* gets me is seeing people try to sit and have drinks, dessert, etc. after dinner at a sit-down place with small kids in tow and then getting mad at their kids when the kids do inappropriate things out of BOREDOM. I *hate* watching people take it out on their kids when the children don't live up to unreasonable expectations--NO child, even the BEST-behaved restaurant-dining child, is going to sit quietly for 2 hours in a restaurant. Box up your dessert and enjoy it with coffee at home after the kids are in bed, or while they play Legos, or whatever.
Might be different if restaurants in America had children's rooms, but unless you go to McD's or ChuckECheese, they don't.
Nothing wrong with parents taking children to restaurants other than McD's or CEC's but PLEASE PLEASE plan with your child's ability to sit and eat and play at a table in mind!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zakers_mama*
Here's what I think it all comes down to though---kids will *not* put on sudden 'good manners' for a restaurant. It has to start at home, being expected to sit at the table for a length of time reasonable for their age, to eat with manners appropriate for their age, etc.
If they're allowed to get by with things at home, nobody should be surprised to see that behavior in a restaurant.

I've got to disagree with you. We have no expectations for my daughter at dinner at home. She can get up and down from the table at will at home. She can play during dinner at home. She can eat if she wants but she doesn't have to. She usually wants to eat what we have but if she doesn't, I'll make her something else. I haven't had any problems at home, and she is still quite willing and able to sit at a restaurant through a dinner, so long as we have some paper and crayons with us.


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
it bothers me, to be honest.

the whole "better running around happy then sitting down screaming" doesn't make sense to me- how about neither? Obviously if I go to a very child-oriented place I fully expect to see both, but out to eat? no. And while it's excellent that he sits during the meal, it's sort of teaching him that restaurants are an okay place to run around in when he's allowed to do so while not eating.

normally I wouldn't say anything, but hey, you asked! lol


ITA. To me, going to a restaurant before a child is able to handle it is not a good idea. When my dd was that age, we just didn't go out much.

A couple of weeks ago we went to see a movie that was totally NOT appropriate for small children. (It was a scarey movie, something that dd and I enjoy together). A couple sat down next to us with a child who was probably not yet two years old. The child talked and screamed and of course, nothing they could say would stop him, he couldn't help it, he was just a baby!

I went to the manager to ask for my money back, and his mom followed me outside and got very angry at me. I couldn't believe it. I didn't ask her to leave, I was leaving! I don't have the right to leave, there's some rule in her universe that says I have to sit there through his screaming???


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie*
I would rather he be running and laughing than sitting and whining/screaming. And I'm sure you're smart about it and don't let him run where the wait staff are trying to carry trays.










I agree. We escort our 23 month old around restaurants when she gets restless. We only go to very family friendly places though too.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Library noise level? No, that's not what I expect, it's a coffee shop.

A reasonable noise level with people not running around? YES.

This parent was disrespecting the other patrons in the shop by letting her child run, scream/squeal, jump on seats and interrupt people while they were busy with things. The parent was allowing the child to be much more disruptive than any crowd of teens I've seen at this spot.

Time and a place.

Not that the original poster was letting her child do this, mind you, just sharing my own experience.


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