# The frightening dangers of SSRIs



## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Great article. Sobering.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0906/119_print.html


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Do you read much from Dr. Breggin? I have 7 of his books.

One point he made was that mania is a common side effect of SSRIs. A lot of the bipolar people I have known were first diagnosed only with depression, and then put on an SSRI. Then they became manic, and the diagnosis was changed to bipolar...It makes sense that most bipolars would have started out as just depressed, since they are not as likely to seek help during the manic phase.

I was prescribed Paxil for back pain in 1996. I read the warning label, which included side effects like intentional self-injury and suicide attempts, and decided not to take it! So even back in 96 they knew of these risks.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

One point he made was that mania is a common side effect of SSRIs. A lot of the bipolar people I have known were first diagnosed only with depression, and then put on an SSRI. Then they became manic, and the diagnosis was changed to bipolar...It makes sense that most bipolars would have started out as just depressed, since they are not as likely to seek help during the manic phase.
That is fascinating to me.

I was on Paxil for over two years (clinically depressed for many years before that, but kids motivate you to do *something*, kwim?). Within the last few months I went *crazy.* My doctor (family medicine) ended up feeling like she couldn't handle my depression, referred me to a psychiatrist w (with her) felt I was... bipolar.

My DH & I talked about it, we just didn't feel it fit with me. I said, "screw it," went cold turkey off the med and it has been 4 weeks (last dose 8/6/4).







It has been a rough road, but I HAD to find the "me" that was under the clouds of drugs. I may end up on drugs again, but at least I will *know* what is going on in my life outside of the drugs. (also, I'm ready to give therapy another try).

I am not particularily happy I went on Paxil, but I needed SOMETHING and for that I will be eternally grateful.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

What scares me are the states that have passed legislation that allows individuals to be forced to stay on medication.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Another interesting thing is how the drug co downplays the side effects. In Talking Back to Prozac it's mentioned that after the clinical trials (which only last a few weeks, BTW) the completed suicides are listed as "suicide attempts," the attempted suicides are listed as "suicidal thoughts" or "depression", etc.

Tired, I hope you're doing OK. Stopping drugs cold-turkey can be rough. When you read all those news stories about a mentally ill guy who did all these dangerous things, what usually happened is he stopped his meds cold turkey, which caused his original stuff to rebound. Glad it worked for you though!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...a-ethics_x.htm

FDA wants to drug healthy children for science.

I wonder if the $570 received will be too much for a poor family to turn down? I also wonder if the children have any say in the matter.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Dh went on anti-depressants a couple of years ago because he was so depressed he was contemplating suicide. Earlier this year when the report linking increased risk of suicide and anti-depressants I was so grateful nothing had happened. The side effects for most of the meds were worse than the depression for him. June this year he stopped taking his meds and went back to counceling. Our experience with anti-depressants wasn't good.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It's also long been known that certain antidepressants are more effective than barbiturates for committing suicide.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

The drs switched my dh from ssri to tricylic anti-depressants.
Do you know if they can be as dangerous?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Tricyclics are the suicide pills. If someone is suicidal I hope they would not get these.







They have more bothersome side effects, which cause people to stop taking them, so care needs to be taken that they are not stopped abruptly. People like these because they are cheap. Something like $30 a month, instead of several hundred dollars like the SSRIs. These are the drugs people talk about when they say the side effects are worse than being depressed.

But since I'm not supposed to give medical advice







I'd recommend reading from someone who can.

Toxic Psychiatry
The Antidepressant Fact Book
Talking Back to Prozac
Your Drug May Be Your Problem
All by Dr. Breggin.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

This doesn't surprise me.

I was highly medicated from childhood on due to problems with depression and PTSD. It's so easy to get 'caught' in the line of 'we have to try something else, or something more'. By the end, I was taking 12 pills a day. I was taking pills to stop the side effects from the other pills, and then pills to stop THOSE side effects from the side effect pills. They had me overdosing on ativan every night (yes, under doctor care!) and I was hopelessly addicted. I had some severe reactions that came to several frightening peaks. I didn't even know who I was anymore. The only person I had left was this clouded zombie in a drug-induced haze.

I never did recreational drugs, ever. I don't think I needed too...

Years and years ago I decided to get off them, and I went somewhere that they're supposed to help you 'come down' safely (because yes, antidepressants/antipsychotics/antianxieties are incredibly addicting). They lied, and took me off everything the day I arrived and would not even offer me Tylenol for the pain.
It took me more than a year to de-tox, and then for the first time in as long as I could remember I felt like me. I haven't taken anything since, and I'm much happier.
I am so wary of perscriptions now. Antidepressants are handed out like candy instead of offering alternatives or trying to get to the root of the feelings... every time I see *yet another* person being given prozac it upsets me. I wonder if they could have recovered in a different way.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Unmedicated depressed people attempt and/or committ suicide as well. I know this to be true.

While I have no doubt that these medication are over prescribed and I completely oppose giving psychiatric medication to children, there is also no doubt that these medications save lives. Depression is my family legacy. We used to self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, now we take anti-depressants. I think that's a step in the right direction.

I tried everything from homopathy to individual talk therapy to accupuncture to support gruops to herbs to Art therapy. Overcoming depression was my full time job for a number of years. I can't think too long about how much I missed out on with my son or I just disolve into tears. Now I take three psychiatric drugs a day and I have my life back.

I have no problem examining these medications and questioning the practices around prescribing them. But some groups who do that are also agitating to get these drugs completely removed from the drug shelf, either by getting laws passed or by bankrupting the companies that make them. I do have a problem with that.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

ITA, Pugmadmama.

I'm bipolar, but there's something in my brain chemistry that reacts STRONGLY to bipolar meds. I tried one drug that my psych. prescribed for me and I thought I was dying for 48 hours. Dry heaving, my stomach and brain buzzing like I had enough energy to run 100 miles but my brain sooooo foggy and tired I couldn't move. I'd toss and turn four hours, sweating, unable to do anything yet unable to sleep.

The only thing that HAS worked for me and allowed me to parent my children are the SSRIs. I really don't know which is worse - freaking out at my kids constantly (and I mean FREAKING, like, totally not normal), or taking an SSRI. Right now, I think my kids' mental health comes before my own health.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
...The only thing that HAS worked for me and allowed me to parent my children are the SSRIs. ...

Me, too.

I think there is so much more work that needs to be done with these medications. But I do feel defensive when people compare them to things like silicone implants. That feels so belittling of mental illness.

Psychiatric meds are changing everyday. I want to see them refined with lessened side effects and prescribed only with a qualified doctors supervision. But there is no way I could survive without them and so I feel defensive when I percieve that that is the direction some groups/individuals are going in.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Tired, I hope you're doing OK. Stopping drugs cold-turkey can be rough. When you read all those news stories about a mentally ill guy who did all these dangerous things, what usually happened is he stopped his meds cold turkey, which caused his original stuff to rebound. Glad it worked for you though!
It is working so far, but only because of a LOT of family (DH) support. I had tried twice before to come off and just couldn't (dizzyness, mood swings, etc...). This time I was able to do it when DH was going to be off work for a couple weeks (on vacation) and I had others around to help with the kids (in-laws; didn't know I was coming off med, but were on vacation with us). Thank for the well wishes.

Quote:

I really don't know which is worse - freaking out at my kids constantly (and I mean FREAKING, like, totally not normal), or taking an SSRI.
I think freaking at the kids is worse. That's why I was on. I'm at a different stage in my life right now (DS is 3) where I'm going to be able to have weekly therapy, more me time, etc... and I hope to be able to be drug free again. If I have to choose between drugs/good parent & no drugs/crazy psycho I will ALWAYS put my kids first and choose the drugs. I was so far down at that point that *nothing* would even touch my depression.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Thanks for yout thoughts pugmadmama and candiland. I agree. My family also has depression/bi-polar tendencies andSSRI's are life savers to them. Seritonin imbalance is no fun. Hopefully people can find a way to cope and if it is SSRI's then i feel they should be available. I also agree that open discussion regarding medication is necessary also.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Psychiatric meds are changing everyday.
How so?


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How so?

For depression, there used to just be Tricyclics. Now there are SSRI's, such as Prozac, and SSNRI's, such as Effexor. It wasn't that long ago that Lithium was the standard medication for bi-polar disorder, now there is Tegretol and Depakote.

In addition to just have more choices, each generation of medication is different. And there are many more medication in the works.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Your story sounds like mine, pugmadmama. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I am another person who would probably not be here today --loving my life, my family, my friends, and my work-- if it weren't for SSRIs. And if SSRI's *had* been available in the 1970s, I believe my father would have survived his depression (tricyclics didn't work for his crippling anxiety and depression; self-medication through alcohol and Valium killed him at age 36).

BTW, Greaseball, even within the SSRI class, reserachers aremaking adjustments to the medications--more specifically targeting certain neurotransmitters, etc.

I appreciate the work of those who serve as a watchdog for the pharmaceutical industry, and monitor the work of the FDA. I have many problems, however, with the groups that completely deny that psychiatric medications ahve any appropriate application. Would they deny insulin to diabetics?


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Same for me, pugmadmama. Right now, I cannot function without SSRIs. I don't rely on them alone to help my depression, but use diet, exercise, therapy, art, and other means to help myself. While I do not believe I would ever try suicide (as low as I've ever been it was still not an option), I do not enjoy feeling as though I am just enduring life, and looking forward to death just so I can stop struggling so hard. That's a crappy way to feel, and SSRIs help me not feel that way.

I also have no problem with questioning their overuse, dangers, etc. I do have a problem with black/white thinkers who would just do away with all the drugs because they have decided that because they don't need them, I shouldn't need them.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Where does Welleburtin fit into to all of this? Dh recently went on Welleburtin because the side effects seemed to be less than the other choices. He says he can feel it working on his brain and it kind of freaks him out. He also seems to be having more nightmares. On the good side, he isn't as depressed as he was.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't know much about it, though I was on it for a short time, but the nightmares are a common side effect of SSRIs. I would get horrible nightmares every night when I was on Prozac, the kind that made me not want to go to sleep.

I didn't notice any antidepressant effect from Wellbutrin, but I was a pack-a-day smoker when I started it and within a few days, I was smoking only a pack a week! And I hadn't even planned on quitting! So that was a good side effect.









People are concerned about Wellbutrin becaues seizures happen to some people who take it.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

What I don't understand is why people expect powerful medicines to be risk free?
There are always RISKS when you change your body chemistry.
Even aspirin has RISKS.
Powerful allopathic medicines are NEVER to be taken lightly.
You educate yourself, you weight the pros and cons.. you make the best decision you can.. and you work with dosages, etc until you come up with the right formula.

SSRIs are POWERFUL. They can save lives.. but they carry risks. So, again, you find responsible doctors, you make educated choices, and you figure out what works.

That is how you take responsibility for yourself. Of course there are risks.

Yes, I think SSRI's are prescribed too easily and sometimes inappropriately. And yes, I think there should be open discussion about them.. but the same is true for TONS of other medicines. Cholesterol-lowering medicines have risks.

Some people would just throw out life-saving drugs without a thought for those whose lives they have saved.
Paxil saved my life. I got off when I was ready to get off.
I took responsibility for myself, I found doctors I trusted, I had my eyes open, I monitored my condition and I made my decisions.

I don't want doctors dispensing pills like candy.. but I also don't want well-meaning people to tell me my life-saving medicine is evil because they have read a book or two.

You have not walked in my shoes, so you don't get to judge.
Don't take SSRI's if you think the risks outweight the benefits.

But I needed paxil desperately in the past.. and I will take it again if I am ever seriously contemplating bashing my brains out against the dumpster ever again.

And by the way.. suicide is also a risk of DEPRESSION. So far, there is no scientific way of telling whether the suicides in question were a result of the illness or the drug.

There are no perfect solutions out there. I say we'd be better off if we stopped expecting perfect, easy, risk-free solutions to every illness and every problem. It is a struggle.. and you do the best you can with the tools available.

The fact that SSRI's are misused doesn't mean they aren't valid tools. That's like saying opiates aren't valid tools because people misuse them.
SSRI's ARE valid tools for many. They simply must be used judiciously, like anything else.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow, Asherah. Thank you.

What she said.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

While I was







at most of your post, Asherah, I needed to address the following:

Quote:

And by the way.. suicide is also a risk of DEPRESSION. So far, there is no scientific way of telling whether the suicides in question were a result of the illness or the drug.
They cannot tell for a specific individual, but if you take one group of people on Paxil and the other on a placebo and the Paxil group is significantly *more* likely to commit suicide, you have determined that using that drug does increase your risk of suicide. It's the same way that "formula fed children are at higher risk of ear infection."

I knew the risks, I chose to take them. The benifits outweighed the possible side effects for me at that time. I, in no way, am trying to imply that the understated side effects of SSRIs are *any* worse that the understated side effects/risks of any other medical proceedure or medicine.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I am not sure it is that simple TiredX2, when you are dealing with depressed people.
Hard to control for levels of depression, fluctuations of the disease, individual brain chemistry etc.
I have not read all the studies, I don't know how large the samples were or any of the other conditions, so I am not going to argue the point with you.

I still stand by my post.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When so many people take SSRIs, we forget how powerful they are. I know some people who didn't even tell their regular doctors they were taking these drugs (on that form where you list all meds you take) and when I pointed this out, they said "But it's just Paxil; that doesn't count, does it?"


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Asherah, where do you, or anyone who wants to take an SSRI obtain the 'RISKS' for these drugs?

The clinical trials don't follow participants (most of whom probably do not fit your medical/psych profile) for five, ten years. So the drugs is released without comprehensive, long term 'RISK' data.

The FDA moves slowly. So when reports come in (via testimony or adverse reaction reports, etc) that there are problems, the label on that drug isn't updated that week or even that year. Where is the data/warning for you or anyone to make an informed decision and weigh these risks and benefits when you don't even have the risks to do so?

You tell people to educate themselves. Where do they obtain the full picture for these drugs? There are intelligent, educated women posting in this very thread who say they didn't/don't know the risks for the drugs they take/took or their DH took. How could they have the full picture? Their doctor doesn't have that. The medical journals have some. The FDA has some. The net is full of message board posts from people who are experimenting with dosages, just like we see posts here from mamas asking how much to take, how to wean off, are their symptoms normal.

As far as you telling someone (me?) that they cannot judge, who are you to judge what a responsible doctor is? Or one who dispenses meds like candy? Or what an 'educated' or 'well meaning' person is? Have you walked in their shoes?

No, I don't expect anyone to need absolutely all there is to be learned about a drug before taking it. But we're talking about a class of drugs that is speculative about why they work and what exactly is going on in brain chemistry. We don't have decades of data on these drugs so they are experimental. To speak so confidently of 'RISKS' betrays the giant absence of knowledge the world has right now about these drugs.

Everyone's empirical experience is their own. No one is trying to take that away. But it isn't as simple as 'get educated' and drawing a judgement line between those who are and who are not. We're talking about information that is absent for everyone regarding these drugs, not judging people because they didn't think there were risks or they weren't 'educated'.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well Greaseball, as I said, I do agree SSRIs are often prescribed too easily and inappropriately.

And I think people need to be educated about their medicines.. with more than just the insert from the pharmacy, you know?

I think it is important for people to understand that they are dealing with powerful chemicals, whether that's an SSRI or anything else.

But I also think people have to not be in denial, and not expect life to be risk-free, and to take responsibility for their own health care. I think people at MDC know better than most that YOU have to take charge of your own health care, as much as you are able, because "the system" is so flawed.

The way SSRI's are dispensed is one example of these flaws.. whether you believe it is because of pharma profits, or docs seeking easy answers, or insurance that won't cover alternative treatments.. or a combination of all of the above.

But it is important to remember that these drugs also save lives... so that you don't throw the proverbial baby out with the proverbial bathwater.

And sorry Playdoh, I am not interested in answering you.
Your tone is completely adversarial and I am not interested in dealing with it.
Anyone who truly wants to know how I found my doctors.. and how I made my decisions about Paxil.. and what I read to help me make that decision.. is welcome to PM me.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Also, don't forget who designs and funds all the studies...

I'm not aware of any long-term studies, either. I wish they would do some. And I wish someone with no financial interest in the drug would fund them.

More links:
Cats on Prozac
http://ic**********.icnetwork.co.uk/...14&method=full

Minor receives Prozac in mail
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/storie.../07/24/0801176


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
Where does Welleburtin fit into to all of this?

Rhonwyn, Wellbutrin is what is classified as an "atypical" antidepressant. It has some qualities in common with SSRIs, as it does affect serotonin reuptake, but it also works on another neurotransmitter (can't remember which--I think norepinephrine?) Its side effects and risks are different, and it is generally prescribed for mild to moderate depression, rather than severe depression. HTH.

And to Greaseball and Playdoh--I hear your criticism of the current clinical trial systems, the flaws of FDA oversight, and the power of pharmaceutical companies. I wonder though, what you are proposing be different? What would you like to see happen with SSRIs (and, presumably, all other Rx medications)?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
They cannot tell for a specific individual, but if you take one group of people on Paxil and the other on a placebo and the Paxil group is significantly *more* likely to commit suicide, you have determined that using that drug does increase your risk of suicide. It's the same way that "formula fed children are at higher risk of ear infection."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that there is something within the pill that causes suicidality. That has NOT actually been proven (and the articles I've seen on these studies do not say that is what has been proven). There are other factors that may be at work.

I know that when I first went on Paxil, the period while I was waiting to see whether the medication would work was the absolute worst, and was when I was at my most suicidal. I feared that if it didn't work, I wouldn't be able to bear it. I have heard anecdotal evidence of this being true for others, as well. The suicidal feelings lifted when it became apparent that the medication was providing relief.

Some researchers have also speculated that initially, for some people, the SSRIs may have a burst of energy that increases the likelihood of suicidal behavior before the other ameliorative effects of the medication are felt. In other words, a person has more energy, but isn't necessarily feeling less anxious or depressed.

Lastly, from what I understand, the patients on SSRIs weren't more likelyto *commit* suicide, but to have suicidal ideation or suicide attempts. Completed suicides were actually rare, and in some studies, nonexistent.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I wonder though, what you are proposing be different? What would you like to see happen with SSRIs (and, presumably, all other Rx medications)?
Well, as I said, I'd like to see studies done by people other than those with financial ties to the drug company. I'd also like it if drug co's stopped giving grants to doctors and insurance companies, so that when doctors prescribed drugs it would be because they were thinking of the patient and not their stocks and grants.

Also, remember the drugs are treating _perceived_ chemical imbalances. These imbalances have never been proven to exist, and we don't know what a proper chemical balance would look like. It is not yet possible to measure the chemical content of a living brain. The brain would have to be ground up. It's possible to measure the content of serotonin in blood, but since we have serotonin receptor sites all over our bodies, it wouldn't be possible to tell how much of the serotonin came from the brain. There are MRIs and other brain scans which claim that depressed people have brain differences, but those scans are done on depressed patients who have taken or are currently taking psychiatric drugs. Of course, the brains of people who take drugs are different from the brains of people who do not take drugs. Some depressed people have extensive histories of illegal drug use or alcohol abuse; this too would alter a brain scan.

Brain scans done with the patient awake have also showed that a patient's emotions can change the brain image. When patients were asked to recall happy memories, the scan was different from when they were asked to recall sad memories. The same patient's brains have also produced different scans at different times of the day.

There was a study done by NIMH which compared groups of sexually abused girls to nonabused girls, and the abused girls had different levels of stress hormones and measurable brain differences. This could show that life experience also "shapes" the brain.

So, I would like to see studies that point out all these factors as well. And, for psychiatry to go back to the way it used to be. Psychiatry used to be more about psychotherapy than drugs, until the APA nearly went broke in the 70s and accepted funding from pharm co's. Now it's rare to find a psychiatrist who does not prescribe drugs, or even one that has an extensive knowledge of psychology and psychotherapy.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
...You tell people to educate themselves. Where do they obtain the full picture for these drugs? There are intelligent, educated women posting in this very thread who say they didn't/don't know the risks for the drugs they take/took or their DH took. ..

Where does anyone obtain the full picture of any drug they are taking? Do you think that the side-effects of other drugs are better explained? Because, in my experience, my psychiatrics have given me a lot more warning and information than with any other drug I've taken.

This is from the front page of the Wellburtrin XL webpage and on the insert I recieve everytime I refill my prescription:

_WELLBUTRIN XL is prescribed for the treatment of depression, but it is not for everyone. If you take WELLBUTRIN XL, there is a risk of seizure, which is increased in patients with certain medical problems or in patients taking certain medicines. Do not take if you have or had a seizure or eating disorder._

Here are some other side effects list at their website and on the insert I recieve with every prescription:

_"...allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives); seizures; or fast or irregular heartbeats; headache; insomnia; ..."_


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
... And, for psychiatry to go back to the way it used to be. Psychiatry used to be more about psychotherapy than drugs, until the APA nearly went broke in the 70s and accepted funding from pharm co's. Now it's rare to find a psychiatrist who does not prescribe drugs, or even one that has an extensive knowledge of psychology and psychotherapy.

No, thank you. I do not want psychiatry to go back to the way it used to be. Back in the good old days when your choices were very few meds with much harsher side effects than the medication available today.

Do you really believe that the poor and even middle class got to spend months and even years in psychotherapy with psychiatrics? Or that psychotherapy alone really works for people with severe mental illness? Study after study has shown that what works best is psychotherapy (which a psychologist or therapist can provided), combined with medication.

If you accept that control groups can prove a tendency towards suicide, why don't you accept that control groups can prove that more people than not are helped by a certain medication? And that that is a strong indicator that that medication is doing _something_ right in the brain?

Personally, I think that eventually psychiatry is going to disappear into neurology. And thank God for that.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, the poor today still don't have much in the way of quality mental health care. The county mental health agencies will see people for little or no money, but generally only the most severely mentally ill.

Quote:

Personally, I think that eventually psychiatry is going to disappear into neurology. And thank God for that.
I often wonder why, if psychiatry claims these disorders are caused by differences in the brain, why they are not treated by the true brain experts.

There have been journal articles about using psychotherapy alone to treat severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. Trouble is, this therapy is very expensive and not covered by insurance, so not many people get it. In my limited experience as a crisis counselor, I found that severely mentally ill people responded best to therapy when all medications had cleared out of their systems. But, I think people have to do what works for themselves, and some people will choose medication. I definitely think the drugs should be available to people who want them.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
...In my limited experience as a crisis counselor, I found that severely mentally ill people responded best to therapy when all medications had cleared out of their systems...

So, if in a psychiatrics experience, people who use SSRI's aren't more likely to committ suicide, would that be enough evidence for you?

I think we are getting to the crux of the issue here.

In my experience, most people I know who believe that psychiatric medication is a "choice" and that people could get better without it (if they only had the right therapy, etc.), either are able to handle their mental illness without medication or they work with/know people who that is true for.

Personally, I think that you can't credibly argue that psychiatric meds cause suicide, seizures, etc. unless you are also willing to acknowledege that for a sizable population, they work better than talk therapy alone. That's what studies show.

Again, I ask, why are you willing to believe that control groups prove that the risk is higher for suicide, etc. if you are not also willing to be believe that control groups prove that for many people, psychiatric meds work better than talk therapy alone? It's like asking me to believe that one side of a coin is valid currency and the other side is counterfit.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

While no one has directly responded to what I said, I see a few mentions that make me think I was misunderstood (or misspoke). In no way am I AGAINST perscription meds like Paxil or Prozac, what I am against is doctors dispensing them like candy before even investigating another route of treatment or helping this person (or referring them to someone who can help) find the problem.
Depression is a disease for many people, a very serious disease. And for a great many of these people it is a symptom of a bigger problem that may not ever get addressed. It's too easy to just walk into an office and say, "I'm depressed" and get drugs without ever investigating what's going on in your life or in your past that could be attributing to it. Sometimes these drugs help, sometimes they just stabilize, and sometimes they're so overprescribed and mixed up that it makes the situation ten times worse. Unfortunately I seem to know more people with the latter problem...

My husband takes/took Paxil for depression - although his was situational rather then clinical. It helped him a great deal, and we are both very thankful for that, and the fact that his doctor prescribed a good dosage.
Once he tried to switch him to Welbutrin for an unknown reason (when asked he did not explain himself), and told him that the two drugs were identical and he'd experience no problems. The five days of that were hellish, and I had to drag him kicking and screaming back onto Paxil before he realized what had happened. The potential mind-altering side effects are no stranger to me.

Anyway, I wanted to make that clear : I know that they can help a great many people, and some benefit from being medicated all their lives (or a large portion of it) - it's just how often the 'other' happens that bothers me.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that there is something within the pill that causes suicidality. That has NOT actually been proven (and the articles I've seen on these studies do not say that is what has been proven). There are other factors that may be at work.
No, I specifically did *not* say that something in the pill causes it. I said that a group of people on paxil vs a group on a placebo would apparently have more suicides. If that is true, I don't know if it is because of something *in* the paxil or another reason


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
But I do feel defensive when people compare them to things like silicone implants. That feels so belittling of mental illness.

But it is quite similar in the history of FDA approval for silicone implants and SSRIs. Dow Corning (in early sixties) had scientists, field experts testify that small breasts were a 'disease'. The breast implants were the medicine for the disease of breasts that didn't naturally grow large (enough). Similar to people who believe that they do not naturally produce enough serotonin or other brain chemicals and need artificial doses to function.

FDA approved silicone breast implants (and later put a moratorium on them for first time implantees and non reconstruct patients) based on the agreement that it was a 'disease' being treated, in addition to the compromised happiness of women who were post mastectomy. Association of Plastic Surgery continues to maintain that small breasts are a disease which leads to a lack of well being and quality of life for those women. They cannot function normally in social and intimate relationships, their self esteem is harmed enough so their quality of life is significantly reduced.

I don't think it can be therefore called 'belittling' when both were/are approved for treatment of a disease. I realize the popular perception is silicone breast implants are for shallow types but that's not how the FDA approval process went.

The other similarity between the two is the lack of long term studies on them. Also the lack of independent, non manufacturer funded studies. Both implants and SSRIs have these two points in common.

Both groups have enormously wealthy corporations behind them. They can command research and bring it to the FDA when smaller, independent groups cannot. FDA, House Committees, etc are reluctant to remove a product from the marketplace when it would bankrupt huge corporations.

Lastly, in Swedish and Dutch studies of thousands of women with breast implants, their risk for suicide was 3x higher than women without implants. So the SSRIs and implants have the suicide risk in common, without an understanding of why their is this increased risk and whether it is associated with the drug/implant.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
...Dow Corning (in early sixties) had scientists, field experts testify that small breasts were a 'disease'. The breast implants were the medicine for the disease of breasts that didn't naturally grow large (enough). Similar to people who believe that they do not naturally produce enough serotonin or other brain chemicals and need artificial doses to function...

So because being small breasted was obviously never a disease, then that must be the case with mental illness as well?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

No, I do not agree with that conclusion.

There are (obviously) differing opinions on what the body does not make naturally, how to remedy that, if at all, and quality of life assessments.


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## 2lilsprites (Apr 30, 2004)

I am on Zoloft, and I have been for almost a year now. While I agree that some people who are on antidepressants don't need them, I truly believe that my anxiety disorder is based on a chemical imbalance. I have been the way I was since I can remember. I didn't have a particularly stressful childhood, I had some normal problems, but nothing I would consider life-altering. But ever since I can remember, I had insomnia problems. I would lie in bed every night, thinking about what would happen if I died while I slept. Who would miss me, what would I have left undone? I was extremely paranoid, I believed that everything was a conspiracy. I was obsessed with my heartrate, constantly checking it, and panicking if it was a touch too high. I am a totally different person on the zoloft. I've never known this person, not even when I was a kid. So noone could convince me in a million years that there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Here are some reasons for SSRI suicide that studies don't often address:

- Sometimes people are literally too depressed to kill themselves. They think they will screw up even at that. They lack the motivation to obtain the means necessary to kill themselves. So the drug can push them just over that edge, but not enough to where they don't feel like suicide. That's why, when I talk to a suicidal patient, I prefer to hear them get sadder rather than happier. A patient who suddenly calms down and seems happy has usually made the decision to commit suicide and feels like a giant weight has been lifted, since he is no longer agonizing over his decision. A person who gets more upset is sometimes upset because they realize they cannot go through with suicide and now have no idea what to do. Just my experience.

- People are told these drugs are miracles and help even the most hopeless cases of depression. So if someone does not feel any effects from the drugs, they may conclude they are even more hopeless than anyone could possibly imagine and feel there is no point to going on.

- For the % of people who experience mania or psychosis as a result of the drug, suicide may result from the mania or psychosis.

- Eric Harris had measurable blood levels of an SSRI when he killed himself. Shortly before that, he had been told he would not be allowed into military service because of his SSRI use. Being in the military had been a dream of his. I don't think many people commit suicide over loss of a career, but it's one thing to consider - when a person is depressed, it doesn't help them to have their goals and dreams ended.

I think the cases of suicide that most concern people are those where a person without a history of suicidal behavior takes an SSRI for mild depression, work stress or even weight loss and then a few weeks later kills themselves in a very violent and painful way.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
... - People are told these drugs are miracles and help even the most hopeless cases of depression. So if someone does not feel any effects from the drugs, they may conclude they are even more hopeless than anyone could possibly imagine and feel there is no point to going on....

I have seen, literally, over a dozen psychiatrists. Not one of them has ever promised me a miracle. In fact, what I get "promised" is that I am going to try a drug and it may not work for me and no one knows why it will work for Patient X but not Patient Y. When I was in a psych ward for three weeks, no one in the support groups, art therapy, etc. was expecting a miracle either (well, except for a few of the Christians who were still praying for one.) We all knew it was a long, hard, road out of where we were, we knew it could take months and maybe years to find the right medication and we also knew we might never find the right medication. We talked about that quite a bit, both in group and over meals.

I'm sure there are doctors out there peddling these drugs as "miracles" but you don't have to be mentally ill for long before you stop believing in miracle cures.

Also, suicidal people suddenly becoming calm and happy is a well known warning sign. And it happens with people who aren't on any medication. Sometimes just deciding to do it, instead of continually wrestling with it, is such a relief that the person's mood improves.

I agree that it is problematic and tragic when a person without a history of suicidal behavior takes an SSRI and then kills themselves. I'm just not sure that all the suicides you are attribuiting to SSRIs could have been prevented. And then we also have to weigh this against how many suicides SSRI's have prevented, which is even more complicated.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

More links! Just in case anyone actually has time to read them...

Children suffer in state care
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/200...entalday2.html

Possible links to violence and suicide
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/casualties.htm

Infants diagnosed
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/...n-670166.shtml

NAMI and drug co funding
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/non...tally_ill.html


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
The breast implants were the medicine for the disease of breasts that didn't naturally grow large (enough). Similar to people who believe that they do not naturally produce enough serotonin or other brain chemicals and need artificial doses to function.

Uh...SSRIs don't _provide_ artificial (or any other) serotonin...nor other brain chemicals...


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Uh....

Just had to use that word. It seems to be hip to use that here!

Anyway, yes, that is correct partially. The theory is that too little serotonin (or 5 HT, NA) can produce symptoms of depression. So by blocking the reuptake (of serotonin), there is more nerve transmitter activity available to the brain. Brain activity is still reduced but the recycling is partially blocked.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

I haven't read all the replies, but I just wanted to say some stuff....

I think part of the problem with bad reactions to drugs might be that people haven't found the right drug and/or dosage.

I took Lithium when I was a teenager. It was horrible. I was constantly sick to my stomach, had diarrhea, and felt like a zombie. So they switched me to depakote and I slept all the time. Then, the doctor tried switching me over to effexor and I developed the very strange phenomena of hair pulling.

So finally, I started on Wellbutrin and tegretol and was better, no real side effects, although when I first started the Wellbutrin it made me VERY manic. They had to cut my dosage back by three fourths. Eventually, I stayed on just Wellbutrin and that worked out great for me and my body.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, these are very powerful drugs that are messing with people's brain chemistry. I feel that its important that the people who need them get them and I don't question that for a second. My only quandlry is that I think they really need to be prescribed by a doctor who specializes in mental illness. When you are on these drugs often times your blood levels need to be carefully monitored for toxitcity and to make sure its at the right level. Also, certain drugs don't work for certain people, even if they are all for the same illness. Often, when starting on a med routine there is a "hit or miss" period when you have to try a few different meds, or even a few different combinations of meds. This seems to be especially true for treating bipolar.

So I suppose part of the problem comes when the regular ol doc is just prescribing prozac or zoloft to every old joe that walks in with depression. While this is great, and certainly helps a lot of people its also a little dangerous. This doctor isn't really getting to the specifics of the mental illness, and might not know about different side effects, interactions and levels that different drugs need. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm not being very concise.

Yes, SSRIs have been associated with violent behaviors and suicides. But is that really the drug? Maybe that it was just at too high of a level for that person, or the wrong drug completely. I wouldn't blame this on the drug per se, but more on the practitioner who prescribed them for not monitoring the patient more carefully.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It's true that people are often put on several drugs before one is found that "works." But don't forget what that is like for them. They don't even get to fully detox from one drug before going on to the next. For people who have never taken these drugs, it's easy to tell patients "Oh, there's like 50 drugs, just try all of them until you find one that works!" What does that patient feel as he tries drug after drug and discovers that most of them don't work and that some of them may even be harmful? Also, some people's insurance only covers a few drugs and the patient then has to choose one of them.

I've noticed that a lot about providers; we forget that we are telling patients to do things many of us would refuse to do ourselves, and we put down other things that may be important to them. For example, when a patient says he doesn't like a particular drug because it causes sexual dysfunction, we try to convince him that avoiding suicide is the most important thing of all and that if he can't have sex, well, at least he is still alive. Or if he gains 50 pounds, we just tell him to exercise, forgetting these drugs can make one too tired to do so. I think that in preventing suicide, we should aim to improve the quality of life for the patient. Sex and exercise can work well against depression; if we have to use drugs we should use those that do not interfere with life.

IKWYM about how just anyone can prescribe Prozac now. I once went into the health center at school and told the nurse practitioner that my Prozac ran out. I had not taken it in a few years. She "renewed" it without even asking questions about depression or anything else. That is way too easy.


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
Anyway, yes, that is correct partially. The theory is that too little serotonin (or 5 HT, NA) can produce symptoms of depression. So by blocking the reuptake (of serotonin), there is more nerve transmitter activity available to the brain. Brain activity is still reduced but the recycling is partially blocked.

No, what I said was totally correct: SSRIs are NOT artificial doses of serotonin. It is wholly incorrect to say that they are.

And my understanding of how SSRIs work does not match yours. For those who are helped by SSRIs, it is not a matter of having too little serotonin, but rather the receptors being less sensitive to the serotonin that is there. SSRIs allow the serotonin to stay in the "gap" longer, so that the receptors have more time to respond to it.

Apparently, for people who have too little serotonin, SSRIs are not effective.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
...But don't forget what that is like for them. They don't even get to fully detox from one drug before going on to the next. For people who have never taken these drugs, it's easy to tell patients "Oh, there's like 50 drugs, just try all of them until you find one that works!" What does that patient feel as he tries drug after drug and discovers that most of them don't work and that some of them may even be harmful? ....

Let's ask someone whose been there, done that...like me. It's depressing. But so is depression. I'm not seeing your point here. Because a person may not find the right medication right way, or even ever, they should not try any of them at all, thereby possibly missing the one that could help? Is that your opinion of all medication? I have a friend who has been through more migrane medications and treatments than I can count and, yes, she's discouraged. Should she have never sought treatment at all?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
...we forget that we are telling patients to do things many of us would refuse to do ourselves, and we put down other things that may be important to them. For example, when a patient says he doesn't like a particular drug because it causes sexual dysfunction, we try to convince him that avoiding suicide is the most important thing of all and that if he can't have sex, well, at least he is still alive. Or if he gains 50 pounds, we just tell him to exercise, forgetting these drugs can make one too tired to do so. I think that in preventing suicide, we should aim to improve the quality of life for the patient. Sex and exercise can work well against depression; if we have to use drugs we should use those that do not interfere with life...

Arguements like this feel like a total minimilization of the hell that is mental illness. When I am in the depths of depression, _I can't exercise or have sex_. It's simply _not_ an option. I also can't see the point in living or raise my own child.

So, yes, I've been on drugs that caused sexual dysfunction and weight gain. I suppose by killing myself I could have kept my weigh down and I don't know what sex is like in the hereafter, so I can't comment on that. Here's how I (& my partner) dealt with it...we rejoiced that I could now feel happiness _and_ saddness, that I could parent, participate in _life_. And we tackled the other issues as best we could. We worked with the hand we'd been dealt. We waited for better options to come along, we are thankful I was able to stay alive long enough to wait for the next generation of drugs to come out.

Bottom line, I think if most people had to choose between suicide or weight gain, they'd pick weight gain. Same with sexual dysfunction. Are you really arguing otherwise?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Because a person may not find the right medication right way, or even ever, they should not try any of them at all, thereby possibly missing the one that could help? Is that your opinion of all medication? I have a friend who has been through more migrane medications and treatments than I can count and, yes, she's discouraged. Should she have never sought treatment at all?
No, if people choose to try everything until they can find one that works, that's up to them. I'm saying that if a person is getting discouraged and wants to stop the search for the perfect medication, that should also be up to them. And that the difficulties - whether it's with finding the medication or with side effects - should not be trivialized. Sexual dysfunction is not an option for some people. Neither is weight gain. I abruptly stopped a medication because I gained 15 lbs on it. I was willing to deal with my original symptoms and the horrible rebound from stopping too soon more than I was willing to deal with weight gain.

I had a counselor who spent a whole session telling me I should be on medication, in spite of the fact that I know I should not be. I told her that for me, the only medications that do not cause weight gain cause sexual dysfunction. Her attitude was that I could live with that. I know I can't. She also said it would be OK for me to gain a little weight. Would it really? How does she know? I used to have an eating disorder. The thing that has helped me stop that behavior is being at a normal weight. Personally I would rather be depressed and good-looking. I don't care if that's shallow, that's how I feel. I guess everyone has to weigh risk vs benefit. Maybe if someone feels they are on the brink of death, they are willing to deal with a lot of stuff. I am not on the brink of death, never was, and am not willing to put up with any sort of annoying side effect.

There seems to be this attitude that mentally ill people do not or should not have sex lives. When I worked in inpatient centers, those who wanted to search for sex or romance were discouraged. They were not even allowed to write letters to existing romantic partners outside the hospital because "they had to focus on getting better." How does cutting people off from their friends improve their quality of life? How does denying natural instincts help anyone?

The side effects are also trivialized, such as when patients become too sedated to exercise or do much of anything else they are called lazy or told to take some Ritalin. Then when they gain weight it's "their own fault" for being so lazy.









We did have one suicide. This was a man who was on 3 different medications - xanax, a SSRI and an antipsychotic. All were sedating. He took his medications 4 times a day, and each time he would take them he would fall asleep for several hours. He got up, had breakfast, took his medications, slept, woke up, ate, more medications, back to sleep - all day, for a few years, and then finally killed himself. I guess he decided his life was pointless. I'm not sure I would want to go on living if all I could do all day was eat and sleep.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Quote:

It's true that people are often put on several drugs before one is found that "works." But don't forget what that is like for them. They don't even get to fully detox from one drug before going on to the next. For people who have never taken these drugs, it's easy to tell patients "Oh, there's like 50 drugs, just try all of them until you find one that works!" What does that patient feel as he tries drug after drug and discovers that most of them don't work and that some of them may even be harmful? Also, some people's insurance only covers a few drugs and the patient then has to choose one of them.
Ummm...did you read my post? Been there done that.

I understand what you are trying to say, but this is true of any serious disease. My grandma has heart disease. She has had to try a number of different heart meds, blood thinners, blood pressure medications - and different levels of them- to find the right one. The same with my grandpa and his diabetes medications. That's why its so important that they see a specialist for their specific disease. I don't understand why its any different with mental illness. Maybe because its more taboo and mysterious in our society. I dunno.

Yes, I know firsthand that the patient feels lke crap as they try drug after drug and not finding the right one. I also know that this is a price I am very willing to pay to have my piece of mind back, to not feel like killing myself, to be able to sleep at night without worrying about scary things. Maybe for someone who suffers from mild to moderate depression this wouldn't be worth it - I can't answer that. But I think most people who suffer from bipolar disease, or serious depression, or whatever, would glady pay a price to escape those depths. You certainly can't question them when you haven't felt those waters. It is terrifying.

And most insurance will cover all drugs, although it might be the generic version. Is that what you mean?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

And most insurance will cover all drugs, although it might be the generic version. Is that what you mean?
Some plans have a specific list of the drugs they will cover. In other states, medicaid only pays for the older drugs which have the most harmful side effects.

One patient told me that repeatedly being told to try another drug felt like a brush-off. I can see what he meant - he would always come into the crisis clinic wanting to talk, and since he was a "chronic" client no one wanted to talk to him. So it was always "Have you tried such-and-such drug?" And he would try it and it wouldn't work, so he would come in to talk and would be told to try a new drug. Finally he got sick of being told to try another drug and never came back. I wish we could have just talked to him.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Minimizing mental illness + fat phobia = I'm outta here.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

First off, being fat and being good-looking are not mutually exclusive. You might want to check your fat-phobia before going further down that road. I had an eating disorder too. I'm lucky enough to have recovered from it enough to know that fat is beautiful, in part because my thinking changed after I found the right anti-depressants.
So now because _I_ personally can't be fat and good-looking, I have a fat-phobia?







Maybe I should go on antidepressants and get my thinking changed.







Good thing there's cingulotomy for us medication-intolerant.

The fact that you misread my post about whether or not life would be worth living if I was fat points to some sort of learning disorder or ADHD. I'm sure there is some medication for that. Also, since you persist in looking for negative things in my posts, perhaps there is a personality disorder as well?


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

I had depression for years and years. I took Prozac, which helped, but it made me apathetic, numb. By the 4th year I was taking 4 Prozac a day! I decided to try somethiing else. I started taking multi-vitamins, trace minerals and getting acupuncture. By the end of 3 months my depression was gone and I felt even better than when I was on Prozac.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Oh yeah, I forgot about acupuncture! That's some fun stuff. It really helped me a lot. I wished I could just keep the needles in permanently.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

I am seeing an acupuncturist and naturopath weekly to help with my depression while I'm pregnant. I feel great, but I notice that if I don't take my supplements or have a treatment every week or so, it starts to come back. I suppose it will take at least 6 months or so to have a permanent effect. I've only been going for about 2 months I think.

I am also a Reiki practitioner. Reiki is amazing for releasing old traumas and injuries (including emotional). With my first pregnancy I was seen almost every day by a Reiki Master and honestly, I've never felt better in my whole life than I did then.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Personally I would rather be depressed and good-looking.

I don't say this lightly, but I have to assume from this statement that what you experienced was not very serious, debilitating depression.


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## CanOBeans (Apr 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
I don't say this lightly, but I have to assume from this statement that what you experienced was not very serious, debilitating depression.

What she said.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe it's true. Hopefully if I experienced debilitating depression I would be willing to take drastic measures.

I have, however, experienced debilitating agoraphobia where I rarely left the house. Sometimes I was afraid to even get out of bed. I could only leave the house if my partner was with me, and I could not go to grocery stores, banks, or ride the bus. This continued for six months and I chose not to use medication. One day it all just went away and hasn't been a problem since. This was about 7 years ago.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
What scares me are the states that have passed legislation that allows individuals to be forced to stay on medication.

ITA. Mindblowingly unbelievable.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i don't buy that people who are on ssris are commiting suicide BECAUSE of the ssris . could it be it is not the right med for them? add me to the "anti-depressants saved my life list"


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

i don't buy that people who are on ssris are commiting suicide BECAUSE of the ssris . could it be it is not the right med for them? add me to the "anti-depressants saved my life list"
To me, it just doesn't matter *why* just that it is (probably) true. Not necessarily to keep people from using them, but so they know to be on the lookout for certain feelings, and their friends & family can be, too.

IMO, more information is (almost) always better.


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