# Baby bucket car seats toddering on the top of shopping carts



## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I see it all the time here in France and it breaks my heart. I just don't know how parent can think this is safe. A stranger only needs to bump the cart...

I heard that some stores in N. America ban this practice. The car seat has to go in the basket.

Does anyone have any information on this subject? Any stats? (which tend to be mixed up with other types of cart injuries). Are parents more educated on this matter back home?


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## sweetpea_119 (Sep 1, 2007)

Sadly, I constantly see people here popping their babies in like that...I think they've never thought of the physics of it. Just like many other carseat issues... It is terribly frustrating!


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I've seen a lot of infant seats placed inside the shopping cart (in the big basket part)... moreso than perched on the kiddie seat by the push bar.

We didn't use an infant seat much, but I recall the little hooks on it holding the seat snugly in place if you set it up on top of most shopping cart seats. On most carts it actually clicked into place.

Now, I've heard that part of the problem is that putting a baby seat up there makes the cart top heavy, but then you'd think that the carts with the built in baby seats would be dangerous too.

We wear our babies the vast majority of the time. I don't know though, the few times that we did it, the infant carrier up front didn't really seem that risky to me. I know that some stores and infant seat manufacturers discourage it, but I figured that it was more of a liability issue than anything else.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I put DS2's seat on the cart - it drops down overtop of the basket part and is pretty secure, IMO. Sure, if the whole car tips over it'll fall too, but barring that, its not about to just fall of by a little bump.


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## momoftworedheads (Mar 6, 2003)

My bucket seat attaches to carts but it still makes me nervous. I generally have worn my children when going into a store. It is a lot easier. We have some stores that have seats attached to the carts but you have to remember to bring a blanket into the store to put in those.

Take care,


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

When Ds was a baby his bucket snapped into the cart where I had to unhook it when I took him out. Now my sisters bucket for my Dn it did not snap so she just wore him and if my BIL took him he put the bucket in the back of the cart. I do not feel that the back of the cart in the big basket (that is where he had him) is safe. I see it here constantly drives me nuts!! I also see them laying the long way across the back of the cart I gasp everytime


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

It's not the risk of the infant seat coming off that makes it dangerous, it's the risk of the whole cart toppling over.

Shopping carts are actually quite tippy - it's a huge risk, and many companies are looking for ways to add an extra foot to carts to keep them from tipping sideways.

Here's the AAP info on it: http://www.aap.org/family/ShopCartPP.pdf

I wouldn't do it, it's just too big a risk.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

With both DD and DS, when they were in the bucket seats, their seats hooked into the cart and I couldn't get them off without unlatching it like I had to to release it from the base. Now the whole seat across the basket thing kind of worries me, though.


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## redpajama (Jan 22, 2007)

When my oldest was a baby, I routinely did this. Like others have said, our infant seat "locked" onto the cart and had to be released as from its base in order to remove it. Because he was the *only* child I was responsible for at the time, I was always right with him/the cart and I felt (and feel) comfortable that the risk of the cart suddenly tipping over was minimal (almost non-existent, really).

Now that I have three children--a 4.5-year-old, and almost-3-year-old, and a newborn--I would absolutely not do this. My older two sometimes climb onto the outside of the cart (to ride on it) and, of course, have no concept of the physics involved--especially when they grab onto the side of the cart. Also, my kids are generally really good about staying close to me when we're out, but my 2.5-year-old is not completely above wandering/running off--so I know there is the possibility that I might have to abandon my cart in order to follow her or redirect her.

Generally, I wear the newborn, put the 2.5-year-old in the cart, and let the 4.5-year-old walk.

This reminds me, though--a little over a year ago, we were in an REI store and I had my daughter (then 1.5-years) in the cart (in the seat of the cart) and my son (then 3.5) was walking. He came up and stepped up onto the side of the cart, and the whole thing tipped. If it hadn't been for my husband's very quick reflexes, the cart would have tipped over on top of my son, with my daughter inside--I'm quite sure both would have been injured. So the concern isn't limited to infants in infant seats.

In my experience, grocery store carts are usually larger, with a wider wheel base, and tend to be more stable. But smaller, narrower carts (like the one at REI) tend to be considerably more "tippy."


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

i've had a grocery cart tip over. i was right there and when it started tipping i couldn't stop it (i did slow it down). so gld there wasn't a baby on top of it!


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Its not banned and it happens here all the time. I think there might a little warning on the seat of the cart. The carts are not made to have that kind of weight on the back and can tip over.

Personally, I'm short and can't see over the bucket seat if its on the cart.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

It's really not safe and not worth the risk, IMO. I was at the store one time and saw a kid in those wheelie shoe things come *thisclose* to slamming into a cart with a baby perched on top. I swear my heart stopped for a few seconds! But he didn't hit it and that baby remained safe, thank goodness. But it only takes one wrong move and that baby would have hit the ground.

It's very much like car accidents. No, you might NOT ever be in one, especially one bad enough to injure everyone. But we still use seat belts and car seats just in case. Same thing is true for the cart thing. No, your cart may never be hit by another cart, but you should practice safe cart driving anyway, and that means not placing something on your cart that makes it top heavy, particularly a living, breathing child that could be seriously injured IF something were to happen.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I don't see the big deal. The grocery store around here provide carts with a "fake" carseat attached to the top!

The carts themselves have the same height/width profile as the normal carts. And the fake carseat is perched MUCH higher than an infant bucket would be. These carts are in multiple chains.

If carts tipping over was really such a huge concern then I would expect these to be removed. Grocery stores don't like leaving themselves open to massive lawsuits by providing "dangerous" things for people's babies.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't see the big deal. The grocery store around here provide carts with a "fake" carseat attached to the top!

The carts themselves have the same height/width profile as the normal carts. And the fake carseat is perched MUCH higher than an infant bucket would be. These carts are in multiple chains.

If carts tipping over was really such a huge concern then I would expect these to be removed. Grocery stores don't like leaving themselves open to massive lawsuits by providing "dangerous" things for people's babies.

Those seats are bolted to the cart, distributing the weight across it, and are made of light foam, with much lighter weight limits than the majority of car seats (The ones here are only for up to 18lbs, which is 4lbs lighter than the lightest weight limit on a car seat.)

The car seats themselves are quite heavy.

Have you seriously never cornered a cart too tightly and had it wobble? Because I have. And I would never ever want my tiny baby to be on top if the thing went over. I think very carefully when I put my 2 year old in the cart. (Because honestly that's still dangerous.)


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
If carts tipping over was really such a huge concern then I would expect these to be removed. Grocery stores don't like leaving themselves open to massive lawsuits by providing "dangerous" things for people's babies.

Every. single. cart I've used has a printed warning to use the child restraints with sitting babies/young children. With the sheer volume of people who put the baby buckets on top it would have been addressed right now.

I must say I've never had a cart tip or seen one tip (& I worked at a grocery store) - it just doesn't seem like that risky a thing.

I never had a bucket so it's a null issue for me but I certainly don't think others are negligent when they do this VERY common practice.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

How is the seat being bolted to the cart any different from a bucket that clips onto the cart?

I have NEVER seen a cart tip unless it was being played with by badly behaved teen-aged boys messing around with them at the far end of the parking lot. I have never had a cart come close to tipping.

Also, if you put the bucket in the main part you have zero room for groceries. How are you supposed to get your shopping done?


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I have always put the bucket in the basket, even if it means dragging two baskets through the store with 3 kiddos mixed in somewhere.


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## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

People do it all the time. I've seen the cart tip over with the carseat on top. Scared me out of ever considering putting DD on the cart like that.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
The carts themselves have the same height/width profile as the normal carts. And the fake carseat is perched MUCH higher than an infant bucket would be. These carts are in multiple chains.

It's the opposite here...the baby seat is much lower profile. I can EASILY see over it and I can't see over a car seat even if I stand on my tiptoes. So, IMO because it's lower profile, and secured to the cart (baby buckets may "click" when you attach them, but they are NOT secure), I think it's a much lower safety risk.

I've never seen a car accident where people got really hurt...doesn't mean it doesn't happen.







I HAVE seen a VERY close call with the bucket thing...that's enough to make me not want to do it.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
How is the seat being bolted to the cart any different from a bucket that clips onto the cart?

I have NEVER seen a cart tip unless it was being played with by badly behaved teen-aged boys messing around with them at the far end of the parking lot. I have never had a cart come close to tipping.

Also, if you put the bucket in the main part you have zero room for groceries. How are you supposed to get your shopping done?

A seat bolted to the top of the cart is different because it is supposed to be there. It is part of the cart, and, as I pointed out is FAR lighter than your car seat. Therefore, it is a lot less likely to tip.

Why do you have to bring the bucket shopping at all? Could you wear your baby? Prop them up in the actual child seat with a belt on? (As this is far lower profile and less likely to make the cart tip) Bring a stroller for shorter/smaller trips? Leave baby home and shop at different hours?

There are ways to work around it. It's dangerous. Obviously, it's a parental decision at the end of the day, but it's not one I would ever make.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I don't do it. Too risky for me.

And for those who say it's safe because the car seat "clicks" in place - That may be when you're pushing it around the store. But the car seat was not designed to be used that way, not tested for safety that way, etc. How do you know a bump wouldn't make it come loose? Or if the cart tipped, that it wouldn't fly right off?

Of course everyone has to take responsibility for what they are comfortable with. For me personally it is just too risky.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I would never, ever do it. I found a study about injuries in infant seats not in the car and injury and death can and does happen.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I cringe when I see people do this, even though I used to do it w/dd. I always want to say something to people, something polite, but I don't feel like it's my place. I started putting DD in the cart part even though it made limited room for groceries.
I do notice that a lot of the time when I see it happening, the male partner is pushing the cart with both eyes on the baby in the bucket, and the mom is shopping (or vice versa). I don't think it's too bad as long as someone is constantly with the cart.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

So, I was going to post something very snarky, but I'm going to resist and just say this:

If this was so horribly dangerous then a: there would be PSA's out the wazoo about it and b: stores would *NOT* allow it - too easy to get sued. Seeing as I've *never* seen a PSA nor a single sign *ANYWHERE* saying not to, I'm not going to worry about it. I don't do it all the time (for extended trips, I put DS2 in the mei tei and DS1 in the basket), but for short, quick 'run in and grab something' I definetly do, especially if DS2 is asleep.

And as for the argument that the ones taht are bolted onto the seat are lighter and thus safer... IDK. Everyone I've ever seen is about 6-12" HIGHER up than my carseat is and thus makes the cart *WAY* more top-heavy than my carseat does set ontop. And honestly, either way, if the whole cart tips, theres going to be issues. But I just don't see much safety difference between the two. And one requires waking my kid up and the other does not. So, I'm going to wake him up.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Seriously folks, its not banned *ANYWHERE* I've ever been, and I've *NEVER* seen a warning not to do it *ANYWHERE*... if it was such a huge risk as some of you seem to think then it would be banned, and there would be warnings on every single grocery cart - Walmart, Giant Eagle, Kroger, would all have huge warnings and people telling you not to. But they don't.

Its not something I do all the time (mostly only when I'm going in for a short/quick trip and DS2 is blessidly asleep), but I do do it occasionally. And have no plans to stop.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

I wear my babies 95% of the time but I have but a bucket on a cart on occasion. I have to agree with other posters- I have never seen a cart tip. I suppose a stroller could tip too- I have seen this happen- so should we ban strollers?

LOL, are we getting to safety minded for our own good?


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Seriously folks, its not banned *ANYWHERE* I've ever been, and *I've *NEVER* seen a warning not to do it *ANYWHERE**... if it was such a huge risk as some of you seem to think then it would be banned, and there would be warnings on every single grocery cart - Walmart, Giant Eagle, Kroger, would all have huge warnings and people telling you not to. But they don't.

Its not something I do all the time (mostly only when I'm going in for a short/quick trip and DS2 is blessidly asleep), but I do do it occasionally. And have no plans to stop.









*shrugs* Not sure how far you're extending *ANYWHERE* but someone already linked to the AAP warning not to do it.

That aside I would never do this, but not because of carts tipping... Car seats are for cars, not for out of cars. I am more worried about oxygen saturations and positional asphyxia in car seats, and only use them for as long as I need to at a time. I pop baby in a carrier to shop and then back into the car seat once we are in the car.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
*shrugs* Not sure how far you're extending *ANYWHERE* but someone already linked to the AAP warning not to do it.

It's also in many carseat manuals.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
It's also in many carseat manuals.

Good point







I just went to check my manual and sure enough on page 11 (I have a Snugride32 and am in Canada) it says "*NEVER* place carrier on the top of shopping cart."


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
That aside I would never do this, but not because of carts tipping... Car seats are for cars, not for out of cars. I am more worried about oxygen saturations and positional asphyxia in car seats, and only use them for as long as I need to at a time. I pop baby in a carrier to shop and then back into the car seat once we are in the car.

How nice that you had a baby who would sleep and didn't live in a cold climate.

If my DD actually fell asleep in the car on the way to shopping when she was a baby, I was letting her sleep. Also, because I followed the advice on not putting her into a snowsuit under the carstraps, what else was I suppose to do when it was well below freezing? I had a nice warm protected carseat (blankets and shower cap thing). I sure wasn't going to take her out to put her into a carrier in the parking lot and have her freeze.

And if I brought the carseat into the store and she was still asleep I was going to try to get my shopping done before she woke up.


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## hipmamaof5 (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi! I read this board all the time, but this is my first post.

I just wanted to add that earlier this year I was at a Kroger supermarket with my kids and had the baby in his bucket clicked on to the top of the cart. I was leaving the store and bumped into something on the ground that I could not see and the baby seat flipped over and fell into the basket upside down. Thank God the handle was in the carrying position (locked up) and it hit the basket first. The baby was suspended upside down inside the cart strapped in his car seat and did not get hurt. It can happen. I'm glad he is big enough to sit in the actual cart seat now.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

My 4 year old son can legally ride in just a seat belt where I live...what is legal or allowed isn't always safe.









I actually have heard of select stores "suggesting" not to do it, much like the little drawings on the seat of the cart "suggest" you strap your child in and don't let them stand. No one is going to tell you what to do with your own child or kick you out.

I don't know what more anyone needs...car seat manuals say not to do it, the AAP says don't do it, techs say don't do it, individual people have shared their stories of babies being flipped over....

I know a lady who straps her baby to her chest, pushes her disabled 50 lb 6 year old's wheelchair and pulls a cart behind her. I'm sure it's not easy, but it gets the job done and both kids are safe. To hear people complain about finding an alternative for their one healthy typical baby makes me







.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Seriously folks, its not banned *ANYWHERE* I've ever been, and I've *NEVER* seen a warning not to do it *ANYWHERE*... if it was such a huge risk as some of you seem to think then it would be banned, and there would be warnings on every single grocery cart - Walmart, Giant Eagle, Kroger, would all have huge warnings and people telling you not to. But they don't.

Its not something I do all the time (mostly only when I'm going in for a short/quick trip and DS2 is blessidly asleep), but I do do it occasionally. And have no plans to stop.









This. I have never seen a shopping cart tip, even with me riding on the back or front of it (I'm a dork and coast on them) and I weigh a heck of a lot more than my baby in a car seat. Plus I can't imagine Wal-Mart wouldn't have huge warnings all over to cover their butts if this happened even once.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
How nice that you had a baby who would sleep and didn't live in a cold climate.

If my DD actually fell asleep in the car on the way to shopping when she was a baby, I was letting her sleep. Also, because I followed the advice on not putting her into a snowsuit under the carstraps, what else was I suppose to do when it was well below freezing? I had a nice warm protected carseat (blankets and shower cap thing). I sure wasn't going to take her out to put her into a carrier in the parking lot and have her freeze.

And if I brought the carseat into the store and she was still asleep I was going to try to get my shopping done before she woke up.

That's quite the assumption... it gets plenty cold here plus we have windchill making it even worse. I'm in Ontario, Canada and while the temperature can vary greatly across the province it's not exactly known for warm winters... in fact the temperatures outside can be downright deadly at the coldest times. There is no way I'd take my child outside in the winter without warm clothing on... he'd freeze to death.

That being said if you believe something is important enough you make it work. You don't see it as a great enough risk for your child, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying for my child I won't take the risk. I would sit in the back of the car and take my own coat off to put the baby in the carrier and then zip my coat up over us both (he in regular clothes with a one layer fleece snowsuit over it, no poofy winter coat because I agree, anything that makes the straps unable to be buckled at the same tightness is not safe). When we came back to the car I'd put him in his seat and bundle him with blankets over him once he was buckled.

Convenient. Nope. Definitely not. But neither is using a carseat at all... it would be way more convenient to just leave him in the carrier and put my seatbelt over us both. I won't do it though. Sometimes my convenience (and his, he was woken up more than once) is trumped by safety. That's just how it works.

You can choose to make a different parental call, I'm sure I make calls that you would think aren't as safe as the ones you make... that's the nature of this parenting thing. But it doesn't mean it isn't workable or that there aren't risks to doing the convenient thing.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

We live in a cold climate and manage without putting the seat on the cart. I just put coats on the older kids before we get out of the car, and cover baby with a blanket. In a wrap/carrier DS is snug as a bug.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
I don't do it. Too risky for me.

And for those who say it's safe because the car seat "clicks" in place - That may be when you're pushing it around the store. But the car seat was not designed to be used that way, not tested for safety that way, etc. How do you know a bump wouldn't make it come loose? Or if the cart tipped, that it wouldn't fly right off?

As far as that aspect is concerned, if dd2's bucket would do that, then it's completely useless as a car seat, because the clips that hold it on the cart are the same clips that hold it in its base.

I'd never heard that this was dangerous and lots of people do it here, including me. I've put her in the basket part once (a couple days ago), but that was really pretty useless, as it left almost nowhere to put my groceries.

I'm also surprised to hear that carts wobble and tip. I've never seen a cart tip in my entire life, except once when I was about 14 and it was pushed across a parking lot at very high speed, and hit a bump (kind of scary, because I was riding in it).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
I would sit in the back of the car and take my own coat off to put the baby in the carrier and then zip my coat up over us both...

That's great. I fortunately don't have to worry about the cold very often. However, that wouldn't even come close to working for me, because I can't wear my baby in a carrier in the car, and I certainly can't get in or out of the car with the baby strapped on. I can't even imagine doing that. If I want to take her out of her seat, I have to take her out and put her in the carrier while I stand beside the van.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Actually, my mother peronally knows someone whose child, now ten or something, sustained permanent, debilitating head injuries from a cart crash when he was a baby.









High up in a cart is never a good idea. There are a lot of unsafe things you're allowed to do. Sometimes, if one case is tested and the defendant is not liable (e.g. a judge finds a grocery store NOT liable for children placed in dangerous positions in its carts) they will just let people do it.

It's four times more deadly to be a lap baby than a carseat baby in a plane.

Airlines don't require carseats.

Don't let the grocery store tell you what's safe.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

And I sit in the car until my kids wake up to go shopping. If I can't wait, well, as it happens I have a carseat stroller (carseat turns into a stroller) BUT there are always the options of either waking baby (highly undesirable, about as undesirable as jumping off a tall building, actually) to put in a carrier, or carrying around baby in the bucket (heavy, difficult, but safer), or at the absolute least, putting baby under the cart so there's less of a fall in the event of the cart toppling.


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

I never used to think about it, beyond the CYA warnings in the manuals and a small handful that were printed on the seats of the carts.

Then my DH had a cart tip on him when our DS was in the seat (seated, strapped in) which resulted in our DS having a broken leg.

I was so very glad he wasn't smaller, he wasn't a baby, and he wasn't in a carseat on top. He'd likely have sustained much worse injuries than he did.

We were told, both by our local hospital, and by Sick Kids in Toronto, that shopping cart accidents are among the most common they see.


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## Madders (Jul 15, 2009)

I see this all of the time here too. Some of them look extremely unsafe... like they could just fall off.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
You can choose to make a different parental call, I'm sure I make calls that you would think aren't as safe as the ones you make... that's the nature of this parenting thing. But it doesn't mean it isn't workable or that there aren't risks to doing the convenient thing.

Yes, this. You may decide the convenience is worth the risk. That's a parental call. But that it's convenient and that the store doesn't choose to police it doesn't make it less risky.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's great. I fortunately don't have to worry about the cold very often. However, that wouldn't even come close to working for me, because I can't wear my baby in a carrier in the car, and I certainly can't get in or out of the car with the baby strapped on. I can't even imagine doing that. If I want to take her out of her seat, I have to take her out and put her in the carrier while I stand beside the van.

Fair enough. I understand that every situation won't work for everyone. Heck one more kid and it won't even work for me out of a car because I'll have three in a backseat with no spare seat for me to be in. My point wasn't really that my solution would work for everyone, just that there are solutions if you feel that something is unsafe for your child. I'd take my kid into the grocery store bundled up in their carseat if it was really cold enough that they couldn't be out of it to get into the carrier in the parking lot and then put the car seat into the grocery cart (basket, not top) and take the baby out and put him or her in the carrier in the store. Then baby would be safer, and I could still use the basket since groceries could go in the seat. My point is that to act like one has to make an choice even if it is unsafe because it's the only way it can possibly work is usually not the case.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

If my child were going to be involved in a tipping shopping cart accident, I would rather it happen to them securely snapped in a bucket seat than sitting in the baby seat. It seems like the likelihood of head injury would be much less in the first instance. However, honestly, I plan w/ the next baby to not take a bucket w/ me at all and wear baby in the store. Toddler sits in the seat now, and I try to stay as close as possible to her at all times.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
putting baby under the cart so there's less of a fall in the event of the cart toppling.

How exactly would you put your child under the cart???


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I always put my baby bucket in the basket of the cart BUT I've never ever in my 25 years seen a cart tip or even wobble around a corner. Ya'll are some crazy drivers apparantly. I even worked at Target for a year and still did not see this.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Ohh and a good trick that I use since when my baby was a baby and my 3 yo was in the baby seat in front I had virtually no cart space... I would take a basket and put it below the cart, that way I could pile more stuff in it w/o it rolling off the bottom of the cart. I would also sometimes put stuff on top of my baby's legs.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't really have a strong opinion on this either way, but something that kept entering my mind as I read all the "but the cart could tip!!" posts is that a person could fall down while babywearing too, but that doesn't prevent people from doing it or make people think it should be banned.

Accidents can happen in any situation -- each person just needs to weigh the risks and decide whether they find them acceptable.


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## karkli (Sep 18, 2009)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that shopping carts come in a variety of different sizes/dimensions/materials.

For instance, drug stores around here have teeny tiny shopping carts that, honestly, are prone to tipping even when they're empty. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they even put seats in those carts because they are top heavy to begin with. I have seen parents put their infant carriers atop these types of carts. To me, that is tragedy waiting to happen.

Then, there are the larger, plastic grocery store carts. They are sturdier and quite bottom heavy when empty (because their metal components are almost all at the bottom and lightweight plastic components are at the top), but introducing a child - especially one in a bucket - interferes with that balance.

At the grocery stores I usually shop at, they offer two different sizes of metal carts. One is smaller, narrower, and lighter. The other has a wider and longer basket, lower sides, and sits on a much larger area. I have on rare occasions in the past put a baby bucket on these larger, lower carts and felt confident in that decision. That said, on those rare occasions, I had one hand on the baby carrier at all times.

Overall, a baby carrier on a wide-based cart in the presence of a responsible adult is safe within a margin of error that I am comfortable with but there are so many variables. It's not as simple as "baby bucket + cart = good/bad".


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## NaturallyKait (Sep 22, 2006)

Just wanted to chime in and say that at the Wal*Mart where I work, the greeters warn anyone putting a bucket on the top of the cart that it is dangerous and to please put the bucket in the basket, not the the top. I've seen some pretty nasty cart accidents though. Just the other day a mother had let her approx. 2 year old sit in the basket of the cart. On her way out, she hit a bump, and the cart flipped. The little boy had a horrible bump on his forehead and had to be taken to the hospital to be checked out.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

I have done it a few times with with DD. The seat clicked but it was much too loose. I had to hold on to the seat while pushing the cart. Carrying DD was much more convenient.

Dora


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

When my older 2 were babies their seats clipped to the basket. When my youngest was born (he's 22 mos now), his seat did NOT clip and did NOT fit the same way. It pushed him up high and had him slumped forward. The carseats NOW are not made the same way as the ones made 8 and 9 years ago. They don't have the same shape.

I see if frequently, though, anyway.

The grocery carts that have the seats bolted to the cart are different. The seat lays back and is pretty close to the top of the basket, not way up high like the infant seats.

And you can always wear your baby while grocery shopping, but I've never had success with that because I never had a carrier that fit me quite right. (I didn't realize that until I finally got my first Ergo a few weeks ago.)


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quite honestly, I'd much prefer to put my infant in his bucket in the shopping cart than ever put an infant in a bolted-in seat atop a shopping cart.

If the cart DID overturn, an infant in bucket would be more protected and less likely to strike the ground or be directly hit by the cart than the infant in the bolted-in seat who would likely crack his/her head on the ground or be crushed by the cart.

My SS1 (Snugride 32, now) has never fit in a cart, though, and barely even fits in the basket of some of them. It's just so big. I mostly sling the baby, but on rare occasions when it's too hard to sling him for whatever reason, I have no qualms putting his carrier on the basket and holding it with both hands (and steering with my arms).


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
Have you seriously never cornered a cart too tightly and had it wobble? Because I have. And I would never ever want my tiny baby to be on top if the thing went over. I think very carefully when I put my 2 year old in the cart. (Because honestly that's still dangerous.)

No, I haven't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
Good point







I just went to check my manual and sure enough on page 11 (I have a Snugride32 and am in Canada) it says "*NEVER* place carrier on the top of shopping cart."

If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.

Also I have noticed that most of the people who say the stores warn against it are in Canada not the US. They do not warn against it here. I did not have a bucket with my two youngest.. I did wear them, but I think this debate is ridiculous. I don't see a problem with people clipping the seats to the carts as they were designed to do this. Sometimes I think people go way way overboard in the name of "safety."


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Car seats are not designed to clip onto shopping carts; they are designed to protect baby in a crash in the car, and happen to clip onto carts. Car seat manufacturers warn against using them in the cart, but I can imagine that their reasoning for them clipping on is that people will do it even if they are aware of the risks (as evidenced here) and that having the seat clip on is better than having it sit on top.

There is one brand that allows it. But, car seats also allow a 20 pound, 366 day old child to FF, and we all know that's not safe. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
There is one brand that allows it. But, car seats also allow a 20 pound, 366 day old child to FF, and we all know that's not safe. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should









Thank you. I agree.

Putting a 366 day old, 20 pound 0oz child in a forward facing seat is perfectly allowable by both law and carseat manufacturers. In fact here in Ontario that child doesn't even need to be a full year old legally... You can make the parental decision to do this but it is not the safest choice by any means.

The same can be said of a great many decisions in our parenting lives. That doesn't mean that the safest choice is always the right choice in any given situation but it does still mean it is the safest. Whether you think the risk is enough to not do it or not for your child taking them out of the infant seat all together and wearing them or holding them is going to be the safest choice for most babies. The rest falls to parental assessment of the situation to make the choice.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Car seats are not designed to clip onto shopping carts; they are designed to protect baby in a crash in the car, and happen to clip onto carts. Car seat manufacturers warn against using them in the cart, but I can imagine that their reasoning for them clipping on is that people will do it even if they are aware of the risks (as evidenced here) and that having the seat clip on is better than having it sit on top.

There is one brand that allows it. But, car seats also allow a 20 pound, 366 day old child to FF, and we all know that's not safe. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should









As stated before, the car seats I have owned (16 and 11 years old) WERE specifically made to clip on to shopping carts. There were also NO WARNINGS at all in the book against this. My nearly 6 year old used the bucked from my nearly 11 year old and my nearly 3 year old just used the Triumph (although in retrospect I wouldn't recommend this for a child under 12 lbs even though it says 5.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
How exactly would you put your child under the cart???

I meant, in a bucket seat, on the part of the cart where you'd normally put, say, a 24-box of soda pop.

I would like to say that I find that also dangerous, and have never done it, BUT- it would be better to be there, than on the top of the cart, in case of a topple.

Quote:

If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it?
I don't know, but using something in a way it was not intended is called jerry-rigging and is generally considered unsafe. It's like saying, if bubble paper is not a toy intended for young children, how come they made it so temptingly crackly and satisfying to pop? How come bikes can pop wheelies? How come the car can go like, nearly 100 miles over the speed limit of any country on the continent where it's sold?

Does it even matter? It just so happens to fit, for whatever reason. But it's not safe to have a baby up that high on such an unsteady device. I've never seen a baby in a fatal car crash, but I know that statistically, it happens a lot, and I'm not going to take any chances.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

The AAP warns against putting infant car seats on top of carts;

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases...oppingcart.htm

http://babyproducts.about.com/b/2009...a-safe-mix.htm

Please don't use the logic that "everyone does it" or that you've never seen it happen. This was the SAME argument that everyone used against using seat belts and children's car seats. You still hear older people grumble "WE never put our children in any car seat and _they_ turned out just fine..." Just because you personally, don't know anyone, doesn't mean it doesn't happen or is impossible.

I was a Flight Attendant for 13 years and I never, ever had a crash or anything scary and there I was, flying for a living. Most F/A's will retire without anything significant happening. I still used car seats for my little ones and put on my own seat belt when I'm flying. I can't use the same logic for car accidents because I've been in a few of those!

I'm wondering if there is a commercial aspect to this, like with flying. The airlines thing that they can sell more tickets to parents if they can put their babies on their laps. I wonder if the stores think the same way. They don't want to put warnings up because if the car seat is up high on the cart, the parents will put more things to buy in the basket. They also might not want parents to realize the dangers and be "put off" shopping in their store. They would rather risk the occasional accident (which they could always blame on the parent) then go against the "everyone does it" mentality and just keep everyone happy and shopping!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

What's the AAP's official recommendation on co-sleeping?

I ask because it seems like their recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own, like letting 4yos drive quads without helmets...


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
What's the AAP's official recommendation on co-sleeping?

I ask because it seems like their recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own, like letting 4yos drive quads without helmets...









: The AAP is not high on my list of people I take advice from. Look at all the vaccines my children would have if I did!

Either you trust an organization or you don't. You can't pick over the information you like and quote it but say Oh no, they don't know what they are talking about with other things. I don't trust the AAP so their recommendations mean nothing to me.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 







: The AAP is not high on my list of people I take advice from. Look at all the vaccines my children would have if I did!

Either you trust an organization or you don't. *You can't pick over the information you like and quote it but say Oh no, they don't know what they are talking about with other things.* I don't trust the AAP so their recommendations mean nothing to me.

*shrugs* I strongly disagree. I have never met any person or known of any organization ever that I agreed 100% with. So if I followed the above then I'd never believe in anything that I'm advised by someone else or by an organization.

I think that you look at the research behind whatever is being said to lead to the recommendation, you use common sense, and then you apply it to your own situation to see what makes sense to you/for you.

For instance I don't vaccinate my children at all. The WHO recommends I do. I looked at the research and weighed pros and cons for my family and I disagree with their stance that everyone should do it. That doesn't for one moment stop me from quoting their recommendation to breastfeed for two years minimum.

I don't come close to agreeing with the AAP on everything. But some things I do agree with and I say so and will use their recommendations sometimes when someone asks me where I get my information.

To me saying that you have to agree with everything or agree with nothing is totally unrealistic.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
To me saying that you have to agree with everything or agree with nothing is totally unrealistic.

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree with this. To me it looks hypocritical to quote them for one thing and say they are full of crap for another.

And again, in the early 90's infant seats were SPECIFICALLY MADE to clip onto the cart. There was no other purpose for that clip. So to say that they weren't made to do that, it's just a coincidence is really untrue.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Well we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree with this. To me it looks hypocritical to quote them for one thing and say they are full of crap for another.

And again, in the early 90's infant seats were SPECIFICALLY MADE to clip onto the cart. There was no other purpose for that clip. So to say that they weren't made to do that, it's just a coincidence is really untrue.

*shrugs* I reiterate I don't know any person or any organization I can agree with 100%. If you do that's great, but I'm betting I'm not alone by a long shot in not feeling like I can.

As for infant seats in the 90's if you read the thread I never said they weren't. In fact, I didn't even say that I think that tipping is the biggest risk to children in infant seats in a cart. I still maintain that the biggest risk is positional asphyxia and lowered oxygen saturations. I will say that on that note we didn't know in the early 90's about those things what we do now so that they were designed for that then means absolutely nothing to me at all.

Formula was touted as better for baby than breastmilk to my grandmother when she had her kids. They really believed it when they were telling her that. It doesn't make it true. We now know how untrue it was. It doesn't change what was then or what is true now *shrugs*


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
*shrugs* I reiterate I don't know any person or any organization I can agree with 100%. If you do that's great, but I'm betting I'm not alone by a long shot in not feeling like I can.

As for infant seats in the 90's if you read the thread I never said they weren't. In fact, I didn't even say that I think that tipping is the biggest risk to children in infant seats in a cart. I still maintain that the biggest risk is positional asphyxia and lowered oxygen saturations. I will say that on that note we didn't know in the early 90's about those things what we do now so that they were designed for that then means absolutely nothing to me at all.

Formula was touted as better for baby than breastmilk to my grandmother when she had her kids. They really believed it when they were telling her that. It doesn't make it true. We now know how untrue it was. It doesn't change what was then or what is true now *shrugs*

I didn't say YOU said that.. but others in this thread have. I was addressing them in that part of my post.

As for the formula I was told in 1999 that it didn't matter, one was just as good as the other by my ped.

I still don't agree it is a bad thing to clip them on the cart... so again.. we will have to agree to disagree.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I meant, in a bucket seat, on the part of the cart where you'd normally put, say, a 24-box of soda pop.

I would like to say that I find that also dangerous, and have never done it, BUT- it would be better to be there, than on the top of the cart, in case of a topple.

LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

There were lots of infant seats with bases in the early 1990's.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.









I'm wondering the same. And I cannot imagine loading up a cart full of groceries hovering literally inches over my baby's face. Eeeeks!


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## TXmom2 (Sep 20, 2009)

I just wanted to add that I did lots of things with my 13 yr old DS and that I now do differently with my 2 mo. old DD.
Lots of changes/safety advances are made over the years..Carseats, strollers, cribs, etc. have all changed! They have 5 pt. harnesses vs 3 pt. harnesses from years ago.
IMC, My DD is either worn (for longer trips) or placed in the large basket of the cart (for quick runs). I too feel safer with her strapped into the carseat vs perched in the attached seat on the cart. It's a judgement call that we must make as individuals


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
There were lots of infant seats with bases in the early 1990's.









I never saw any and mine did not have one, but it was made to clip on the cart. It said so right in the manual and on the seat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TXmom2* 
I just wanted to add that I did lots of things with my 13 yr old DS and that I now do differently with my 2 mo. old DD.
Lots of changes/safety advances are made over the years..Carseats, strollers, cribs, etc. have all changed! They have 5 pt. harnesses vs 3 pt. harnesses from years ago.
IMC, My DD is either worn (for longer trips) or placed in the large basket of the cart (for quick runs). I too feel safer with her strapped into the carseat vs perched in the attached seat on the cart. It's a judgement call that we must make as individuals

While this is true, I think many of the safety advances aren't so much safety advances, but the PTB telling us what to do becuase some people are too stupid to think for themselves. I think our society is way to afraid of every little thing and we just need to LIVE. You can't pad the whole world.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.









Really? I almost was able to fit my daughter's sit-n-stroll (without her in it, she was being worn) down there and I thought at the time, gosh, if only we had a bucket seat! I guess I estimated wrong. Or more likely there are just different sized carts out there and we're talking about different ones.

Considering that the groceries aren't likely to crash THROUGH the cart, I still would prefer to put a bucket down there than on top of the cart. But I'm not holding my breath for anyone like the AAP to make that the official recommendation.









Quote:

It said so right in the manual and on the seat.
Well, that was a huge mistake on their part, then. I'm not at all surprised that there are no such seats in circulation now!


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).

I highly suspect most of those cases were kids hanging to the sides of the cart, thus flipping it over onto themselves. Of course, I can't prove this, but it seems likely.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Since this thread started I've been to a couple different stores. I honestly tried to tip the cart over & it was incredibly difficult to do. I really think maybe it is more to do with different cart designs than anything.

When it comes right down to it everyone needs to decide what their risk taking threshold is (sounds like we're bungy jumping!). Does it happen - yes. Is it enough of a risk for me to worry over it - that's where the decision is.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.

We have a Chicco Keyfit 30 & they are specifically made so that they do NOT fit on top of the shopping carts b/c it is not safe.

When dd was an infant, we did not have a bucket specifically b/c we felt that she deserved to be carried in arms, not in a plastic bucket. We own one now b/c our last dfd did much better in the car in the recline of a bucket than she did in a convertible. We always took both of our kids out of the seats, every time, sleeping or not. The seats that are bolted to the carts sit farther back over the basket. I, personally, have never seen a cart tip, but I would still not put a car seat in the baby seat of a cart.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).

I know a child who was about one. She stood up when her mom had her back turned and face dived onto WalMarts floor. This was just before they started putting belts on those seats, (belts which I never use because my 2 year old screams if I do.) Does it say how many of those 24,000 injuries were due to the cart tipping because the infant seat makes it top heavy? Or doe sit just say injuries? I am sure there are many many ways a child can be injured by a shopping cart. I seriously doubt the vast majority of them have anything to do with an infant seat.

Random statistics with no breakdowns are meaningless.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

The point about those studies are that when you fall onto a hard floor, you can get really hurt, especially when your head is soft.

With the buckets, the baby's head is softer, and the baby is higher, than with a toddler in the seat in the cart. So...

Regardless of whether or not MOST of the injuries are specifically due to the buckets, it's just clear that it's not safe, and never was, no matter what a car-seat manufacturer said. It's common sense, really- don't put your baby on top of a really tall object, especially not over a hard floor.

And this is not a random statistic- it shows that thousands of children are injured annually by being put on top of carts. So putting your child on top of a cart is a bad idea. How could "higher and more vulnerable" possibly be better?


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I know a child who was about one. She stood up when her mom had her back turned and face dived onto WalMarts floor. This was just before they started putting belts on those seats, (belts which I never use because my 2 year old screams if I do.) Does it say how many of those 24,000 injuries were due to the cart tipping because the infant seat makes it top heavy? Or doe sit just say injuries? I am sure there are many many ways a child can be injured by a shopping cart. I seriously doubt the vast majority of them have anything to do with an infant seat.

Random statistics with no breakdowns are meaningless.

I agree. I'll bet that most of those injuries were caused because the children were mobile. Kids climbing on carts, hanging on carts, standing in the baskets and flipping out, standing in the built-in seat areas, getting their heads and necks wedged between the part of the cart that folds into itself when they are stacked in line, etc.

If I had only two options - to use a built-in infant seat on a cart or my own infant carrier, I'd pick the carrier hands-down. IF the child is harnessed correctly and the handle is left up, almost any baby falling from a cart tipping will be cushioned in his/her seat. The head should not strike the ground and most carriers now have foam to absorb the impact.

On the other hand, if my cart tipped with my infant in a built-in seat, I could bet the injuries would be terrible.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
The point about those studies are that when you fall onto a hard floor, you can get really hurt, especially when your head is soft.

With the buckets, the baby's head is softer, and the baby is higher, than with a toddler in the seat in the cart. So...

Regardless of whether or not MOST of the injuries are specifically due to the buckets, *it's just clear that it's not safe*, and never was, no matter what a car-seat manufacturer said. *It's common sense, really- don't put your baby on top of a really tall object,* especially not over a hard floor.

And this is not a random statistic- it shows that thousands of children are injured annually by being put on top of carts. So putting your child on top of a cart is a bad idea. How could "higher and more vulnerable" possibly be better?

I think you left something out, it is common sense not to put your baby on a tall object (carts aren't really tall btw.. where have you been shopping?) UNSECURED. The seats are secured onto the cart. They clip on there.. they fit snuggly and I for one am confidant that the baby is safe baring some strange accident such as the roof falling on them, or something else very dramatic.

As for the built in seats. they are higher than any of the buckets I have ever seen.. not lower. And besides that.. those things are GROSS. I mean my goodness.. think of all the pee, and drool and other stranger funk that is all over them. At least in the built in seats I know my toddler is not LAYING in someone else's funk. They also put their fingers in their mouths less often at that age. Those things have always just totally grossed me out and I am not a germ phobic. I never use the wipes at the store for the carts.

As for it being clear.. it is not clear to me. You are free to make that choice for your family, however I really believe that many things are blown way out of proportion in the name of "safety."

ETA: Missed your last paragraph. They ARE random statistics. It does not say that 24,000 children are injured becuase of car seats being placed on the cart. This is exactly what it says.

Quote:

In a policy statement, the American Academy of Pediatrics estimates more than 24,000 children were treated in the U.S. for shopping cart-related injuries in 2005.
The fact that it doesn't break down how many children in car seats were injured makes it random. And their suggestions are ridiculous and I wont be following them.


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## LandonsMom (Jul 22, 2005)

I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
And their suggestions are ridiculous and I wont be following them.

I agree the suggestions were ridiculous. Bring along someone else every time? Always find a sitter? Pull a wagon AND push the cart? Push a stroller AND push the cart? Obviously the AAP thinks all parents have four arms and only one or two kids.

It's all about common sense. When I have to place my carrier in the cart, I always hold onto it. ALWAYS. Even if it latched onto the cart (it doesn't), I'd hang on to it. I also always have my child strapped in securely. Not every parent you may see doing this isn't a thoughtless one.

Most of the time when baby comes into the store in his carrier, he's in the basket part anyway - which the AAP also advises against.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LandonsMom* 
I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).

I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?

I've also seen kids fall out of highchairs, fall out of strollers, fall off swings (very high up in the air) and tumble head first down stairs. That doesn't mean everyone should avoid placing their kids in highchairs, strollers, swings or letting them walk on stairs, it just means that some caution is involved and it is done as safely as possible.

I agree that a heck of a lot of parents don't *think* cautiously. Lots of people have the "It won't happen to me" mentality.

But not _everyone_ thinks like this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83*
...it seems like their [AAP's] recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own...

Exactly.


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## LandonsMom (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?


I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LandonsMom* 
I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.

It would also seem to be common sense to make sure the seat wasn't wobbly in the first place. The one we had fit in there tight.. and clipped on.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

It's still not a good idea to place it on top of a shopping cart, clip or no clip. It just takes one bump and that supposedly tight clip can just snap out. It's simply aren't safe.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.

I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.

Not when they originally started doing it. My car seat did not have a base, but it had the clips and the bottoms was shaped in such a way as to fit in the cart snuggly. It also had stickers by the clips that showed how it should be attached to the cart. Now this was back in 93. I don't even remember the name of the car seat. The one I had in 98 did have a base and I can't remember if it used the same clips or not, however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

_however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me._

It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.

Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.

The seat manufacturer may have made clips that will attach to a shopping cart, BUT the shopping cart was NOT designed to have a carseat balanced on top of it in that particular position. THe seat manufacturers also have no idea what the cart is made of, the tensile strength of the bar its being attached to, the quality of the welds, etc.

A lot has changed since 1998 in seat manufacture and recommendations for use, and after a number of horrible accidents involving carseats and shopping carts, manufacturerers are no longer including shopping carts as a "serving suggestion," for liabilitiy reasons. WHich makes sense to me.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

It really irks me when things get pulled due to "safety" reasons when it probably really isn't the product, but the lack of sense in the person using it.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.

I didn't speak of "clear logic", I spoke of "logic".

Moreover, I can believe that some bucket seats were designed to clip on to the cart, but then, some drugs were designed to be ingested. Doesn't make it safe.

And while some perfectly useful things are pulled prematurely because people just don't know how to use them, many, many more things are re-designed to be much more safe. For example, cars. They used to be less safe than they are now. The car manufacturers insisted that "cars don't cause accidents, drivers cause accidents." Well, we know that (a) it might not be the fault of the person driving the car if she gets into an accident, (b) it certainly isn't the passenger's fault! and (c) fault really has nothing to do with it since we all want the risk of death and injury to be as low as it can possibly be, regardless of liability.

And that's why they don't make carseats to put on carts, and why parents shouldn't put them on carts.

The AAP recommendations are based on risk assessments for a large group of people. They know that if only one child in 10,000 is going to die from something, that 99,999 children could do it without dying.

However, they are going to recommend behavior that keeps every single of the 10,000 children safe.

They are also probably more aware than most of us (because they hear of sad "freak accident" cases daily) of the role that chance plays in all of this.

_Does any of us want to be in the ER saying to the doctor, "It felt secure! I've latched it on there a million times! The cart didn't seem wobbly..."

To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually do."

And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was a piece of gravel under the wheel."

And the other nurse: "She's stable. She's got a fighting chance."

I mean, really?_

Because we are just soooo confident in our ability to assess security of carseat clips and shopping-cart stability? So that we'll put a baby four feet above ground?


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
_however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me._

It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when *clear logic* is that it's not.

You said clear logic right there..

And yes.. .things are pulled and redesigned and put back out into the market, as a less useful product. Take baby walkers for instance,

These are SO dangerous!!! NOT! Parents without enough brain cells to not put their baby in something that has wheels at the top of the stairs are dangerous. But to protect the children of the above mentioned parents they took them off the market, redesigned them so they are bulkier, less maneuverable, and basically NOT a walker any longer becuase babies can't walk in them!!

Webbles wobble but they don't fall down.. .NOT ANY MORE!! They are so freaking big they no longer wobble. Little people are no longer little, I haven't seen a micro machine in YEARS, and polly pockets are twice the size they used to be.

These items were PERFECTLY safe for the INTENDED age group, but because some parents lack common sense they were pulled, redesigned and re-released as something else to protect the children of parents with no sense.

Placing your baby in a car seat on top of a car is not unsafe, IF you have enough sense to make sure it is stable, clipped on there securely, and not placed on the type of cart wobbly. Most grocery carts are big, bulky, and do no wobble and I feel secure that my baby is safe, (was safe when I used them.) You can do what you want with your child, but like I have said before.. we will have to agree to disagree because there is nothing you can say that will sway me to your point.


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## Murph12334 (Nov 12, 2003)

if i have to bring the seat in with us it goes in the basket part, i'm too short to see to steer the cart with the seat in the front part - normally i just wear the baby though


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## Kismet_fw (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
The seat manufacturer may have made clips that will attach to a shopping cart, BUT the shopping cart was NOT designed to have a carseat balanced on top of it in that particular position. THe seat manufacturers also have no idea what the cart is made of, the tensile strength of the bar its being attached to, the quality of the welds, etc.

I want to back this up. I work in a large retailer's store, and we have carts of several different designs because they were bought for the store in different years. I often see baby seats of several styles precariously set over the seat of the cart, some look like they might clip - if the upper part of the seat leaned back another inch or so. Or there is a sort of hook area (not even a clip, just a hook design in the plastic) that sort of settles over it. Not very secure. I've seen some with the outter edge of the hook sitting on top of the back of the seat - it might have settled better, but the parent didn't look, they just put it up there.

And skate-shoes are a huge issue of their own, parents encourage their kids to go full speed just because the floor is concrete and the aisle looks clear. WE SELL RUSTY, GRIMY, NASTY, REBAR! Do you want your kid to come sailing along at full speed, just when someone is turning a corner with some 6foot lengths of rebar in their hands? The ambulance crew will have an interesting time getting a child to the ER with that through their middle.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
The AAP recommendations are based on risk assessments for a large group of people. They know that if only one child in 10,000 is going to die from something, that 99,999 children could do it without dying.

However, they are going to recommend behavior that keeps every single of the 10,000 children safe.

They are also probably more aware than most of us (because they hear of sad "freak accident" cases daily) of the role that chance plays in all of this.

_Does any of us want to be in the ER saying to the doctor, "It felt secure! I've latched it on there a million times! The cart didn't seem wobbly..."

To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually do."

And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was a piece of gravel under the wheel."

And the other nurse: "She's stable. She's got a fighting chance."

I mean, really?_

Because we are just soooo confident in our ability to assess security of carseat clips and shopping-cart stability? So that we'll put a baby four feet above ground?

I'm sorry, EdnaMarie, this whole thing sounds so silly.

I could put any other situation here and the conversation could be the same.

"I thought my Ergo was buckled, but the baby fell out."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually are buckled correctly."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was something stuck in the buckle."

"I thought forward facing at one was okay, but I guess his neck just wasn't strong enough."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, it usually is okay to forward face at one."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. He just wasn't strong enough to withstand the crash forces." (The AAP recommended until recently a bare minimum of 1 year and 20 pounds for forward facing.)

"I thought the crib was safe - I didn't know the slat was loose."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, cribs are usually very safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Sometimes thing break and we don't notice." (The AAP recommends babies sleep in their own spaces.)

"I thought circumcision was safe. No one told me about things being botched or meatal stenosis."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, circumcision usually is safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. The doctor just didn't do the job right." (The AAP gives parents the option, and does not recommend against circumcision.)

"I thought vaccines would save her life - not put her in the hospital with a life threatening reaction."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, vaccines are supposed to be safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Obviously your child had an allergy no one knew about."(The AAP recommends vaccination on schedule for all children.)

In other words, some of us don't put too much stock in what the AAP says.

While I *AGREE* that today's infant carriers are *NOT* meant to snap into a cart and parents should not believe that infant carriers are *INHERENTLY SAFE* in carts, I totally disagree that it's irresponsible to do this. Anyone with a lick of common sense (and there are lots who lack it), will know that one must hold onto the carrier, make sure it's stable, and not go barreling through the store or parking lots without protecting the baby inside.

While you can certainly say that carriers don't belong there, it's not a one-size-fits-all solution to say that parents shouldn't do it. SOME parents shouldn't do it because they are unable to be mindful of it. OTHER parents can use common sense and weigh the benefits vs the risks.

Otherwise, you may as well just call the shots on everything potentially unsafe that parents do.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Assessing risk factors is something all parents have to do. Some things take effort, like belting a baby into a car seat but we know the risk is great so it's worth the trouble.

Some risks are easy to avoid, so it's worth the effort, because the effort is so minimal. I didn't leave small objects lying around when my babies were crawling. This was a simple, easy gesture that could have kept by baby from swallowing something dangerous (for the sake of argument, lets leave aside the older-child-with-choking-hazard-toys issue for now). Another parents might saw "Oh my baby never swallows anything" or argue that a specific object wouldn't be life-threatening but I didn't think it through any further than "small object-pick up". It was automatic for me.

An injury due to this too is so _easy_ to avoid. Is it difficult to use a baby carrier? I actually found it easier. Is it too hard to put the car seat inside the basket of the cart? No, and it's so much safer.

A no-brainer!

Parents often blame other parents. "_I_ wouldn't have done _that_! I would have held on to the cart..." etc. but it only takes a split second to go over a bump you didn't see, have some idiot run into your cart (or wild child) or you took your hand off for that one instant...


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Assessing risk factors is something all parents have to do.

Agreed. And parents will come to different conclusions based on risk vs benefit. Just because some will think differently on this issue doesn't mean they are irresponsible.

Quote:

Some risks are easy to avoid, so it's worth the effort, because the effort is so minimal. I didn't leave small objects lying around when my babies were crawling. This was a simple, easy gesture that could have kept by baby from swallowing something dangerous (*for the sake of argument, lets leave aside the older-child-with-choking-hazard-toys issue for now*).
But that's not fair to leave that out. I do have older children with choking-hazard toys, and I cannot possibly pick them all up. So I make myself aware of my infant, where my older children are, what they are playing with, and make sure the baby's not getting into them. It's a risk vs benefit analysis I'm comfortable with.

Quote:

Is it difficult to use a baby carrier? I actually found it easier.
Keyword: You. YOU found it easier. There have been times in MY parenting when baby carrying was impossible due to physical limitations.

Quote:

Is it too hard to put the car seat inside the basket of the cart? No, and it's so much safer.
Yes, it is difficult, esp if you go to SHOP and need the basket for shopping.

Quote:

A no-brainer!
Obviously I have no brain.









Quote:

but it only takes a split second to go over a bump you didn't see, have some idiot run into your cart (or wild child) or you took your hand off for that one instant...
I go slow. And I don't take my hand off. Just like I don't let go of my child's hand when we're walking through the parking lot. Or when they are climbing out of the slippery tub. YOU may take your hand off for one instant, but I don't.

(Not that I even _do_ the carseat on the cart thing that often anyway. Only when _truly_ necessary.)

But, let's go back to the toys. Some toys have a rating on them that children under three should not be allowed to play with them because they are choking hazards. So, what if I let my 2.5 year old play with them? Is it a no-brainer to disallow this? Am I not being irresponsible? I can't _possibly_ keep my eye on my child at ALL times and make sure he isn't mouthing one, can I? What if a sibling runs into him and accidentally causes him to inhale whatever he's mouthing on?

These things are parental judgment calls. I'm sure there are plenty of parents here who let their younger-than-threes play with toys meant for threes-and-up.

Anyway, back to the cart. What if an idiot ran into my cart and it happened to flip? Then the basket wouldn't be much safer for my baby anyway, would it? If all these carts are flipping over so easily, like some people are saying, then no one with a brain should put their babies even in the baskets.

Which brings us back to the AAP's recommendations that NO CHILD should be in the basket anyway, and that any parent *with a brain* who shops with their children should either push or pull a stroller or wagon along with the cart, or bring along another adult at all times.

Totally unrealistic.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Which brings us back to the AAP's recommendations that NO CHILD should be in the basket anyway, and that any parent *with a brain* who shops with their children should either push or pull a stroller or wagon along with the cart, or bring along another adult at all times.

Totally unrealistic.

Erm, if someone rams into the wagon or stroller, or they hit a bump and flip over, is that actually going to improve anything? My stroller is far less stable than most shopping carts. My SIL slipped on wet pavement while wearing my DD. DD was OK, but could have been hurt.

There is no risk-free way to move our children through this world, and I am not entirely convinced that the infant seat/shopping cart is really that ridiculously dangerous. It would help if there were some decent statistics on that point. (Statistics on "shopping cart related injuries" doesn't tell me anything, because it's too vague...)

BTW, in 28 years of shopping, I have never seen a cart tip or wobble. I tried to tip the little ones in our mini-store yesterday and it was HARD. With a toddler in the toddler seat.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

A big YEAH THAT to Sancta & TheGirls - the ONLY times I've ever seen shoppomg carts tip/flip were in college using stolen carts in jackass-rip off stunts (IE: We were TRYING to make them flip!!). If you think this is so totally dangerous that it makes you sick whenever anyone does it, fine. But that doesn't make it horribly life-threateningly dangerous. All the statics on 'shopping cart injuries' make no distinction between my toddler falling off the front, or having his foot run over or his big brother jumping out and twisting his ankle or the seat falling off, or the cart ACTUALLY flipping. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but I can't honestly believe that having baby in the frigging basket (and thus making shopping utterly impossible) or hauling a wagon or a stroller along all that much safer. And yeah, I could babywear him but you know what? THATS not totally safe either - what if *I* trip over that random bump in the parking lot and fall on him? What if my wrap/mei tei comes untied randomly and he falls? Or the beco/ergo comes unbuckled and he falls? NOTHING is completely 100% fool-proof safe in this world, NOTHING. So freaking out over something that YOU personally find to be 'unsafe' but which millions of others do not isn't going to make you any friends - not online and certainly not IRL. Buckets ontop of shopping carts happens millions of times every day... and how many kids have actually died or been seriously injured because of it? Anyone have stats? Probably not (but I'd *LOVE* to see them if they do exist). Because the numbers are so incredibly small as to be irrelevant.

Just for refernces sake heres a warning on using slings! So, should we ban all sling carriers?? CPSC thinks there unsafe! OMG!! :roll
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/saf...-carriers.html


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
An injury due to this too is so _easy_ to avoid. Is it difficult to use a baby carrier? I actually found it easier. Is it too hard to put the car seat inside the basket of the cart? No, and it's so much safer.

A no-brainer!

.

For some people yes! I tried to use a carrier with my 3rd daughter.. she HATED it by 3 months. She spent the whole time SCREAMING in it. With my son I used a sling and he too hated it by three months.. I got an ergo and that worked until about 6 - 8 months, then he hated it as well.

Some parents/babies can't tolerate carriers for whatever reason. And unless you came to the store to pick up a few things, putting the baby in the basket isn't going to work, cause then, where are you going to put your groceries?

MOST people don't have the luxury of bringing another adult to the store with them to push the stroller or pull a wagon. Most people don't have the luxury of being able to hire a babysitter to watch their kids while they go grocery shopping. And the recommendation that parents shop at stores that have play places.. well that is just DUMB cause they wont take kids til they are two and it therefor has NO BARING on infant seats.

The AAP does not live in reality, and neither do their recommendations.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

And unless you came to the store to pick up a few things, putting the baby in the basket isn't going to work, cause then, where are you going to put your groceries?
If you just need a few things, they will totally fit in there with baby.

I have done weekly shopping with my child sleeping in a carseat IN the basket. A lot of stuff goes on the rack below and in the front cart. I have also done weekly shopping while balancing grocery bags (the reusable kind) on the back of a stroller, bringing them up to the front, and leaving them there, then going back for more. Yes, I have done that.

It's totally possible in reality. The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
If you just need a few things, they will totally fit in there with baby.

I have done weekly shopping with my child sleeping in a carseat IN the basket. A lot of stuff goes on the rack below and in the front cart. I have also done weekly shopping while balancing grocery bags (the reusable kind) on the back of a stroller, bringing them up to the front, and leaving them there, then going back for more. Yes, I have done that.

It's totally possible in reality. The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.


How many kids do you have? Because I couldn't do weekly shopping this way. We have a family of 6. I also do bi-weekly shopping becuase that is pay day.

And it is not reality.

The AAP is the American academy of pediatrics and they are not comprised of working parents but DOCTORS who want to tell you want to do.

Quote:

Welcome to the official Web site of the American Academy of Pediatrics - *an organization of 60,000 pediatricians* committed to the attainment of optimal physical, mental, and social health and well-being for all infants, children, adolescents, and young adults. Whether you're looking for general information related to child health or for more specific guidelines concerning a pediatric issue, you've come to the right place. Here, you'll find information regarding the Academy's many programs and activities'our policies and guidelines'our publications and other child health resources'and much, much more. Best of all, you can rest assured that *the information comes from the nation's leading child health experts* and that we have scientific research supporting our recommendations.
http://www.aap.org/about.html

This does NOT come from working parents making sacrifices to be on the board.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I have also done weekly shopping while balancing grocery bags (the reusable kind) on the back of a stroller, bringing them up to the front, and leaving them there, then going back for more. Yes, I have done that.

Wow! I mean kudos to you for sticking to your guns. But wow, I do not know a single person who would go this far.

Since this thread has started I've chatted with everyone I know about it & not one person has felt it is unsafe to use the carts this way.

And really, my days are complicated enough as it is. I HATE grocery shopping more than most & would not be doing anything to make the task anymore difficult/complicated/demanding than it has to be.

BTW - I never owned a bucket seat & always wore ds until he could sit happily in the cart (although I still keep the sling handy in case he starts getting grumpy). But I have never felt anyone else was negligent for using their bucket seats in this manner.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Well, I certainly wouldn't say that people are negligent! I'm just saying, when you know the risks, it's hardly wise to put the baby up there. Not that people are somehow negligent.

Quote:

The AAP is the American academy of pediatrics and they are not comprised of working parents but DOCTORS who want to tell you want to do.
Soooo... are doctors not parents, or do you not count practicing medicine (meeting with clients 12 hrs a day, six or even seven days a week) not work?

I have two kids. Honestly, though, if you are taking six kids shopping (and I've never met a family that does this, though I know several with more than four children), are you really able to stay with your card, with no other children in it??? I mean so consistently that you know the cart is never going to get knocked into?

It is just NOT that complicated to say, "I'm not going to balance my infant four feet above ground." It is not. There are so, so, so many options, even if your kid doesn't want to be worn. I mean you could easily say, "With six kids we could never fit that many boosters in the car." But you don't. It's not a negotiable. It's a PITA, but you find a way. You find a way to have your kids with you in the parking lot. You find a way to get your kids non-chokeable food. You can find a way to keep your kid less than three feet off the ground.

And it's easy to stick to your guns when you personally know someone touched by an injury caused by failure to observe safety guidelines. Every time my kid jumps on the back of the cart, I literally see her little future flash before my eyes.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
If you just need a few things, they will totally fit in there with baby.

Yeah, but a lot of us shop when we need more than just a few things.

Quote:

I have done weekly shopping with my child sleeping in a carseat IN the basket. A lot of stuff goes on the rack below and in the front cart.
Unless you have a SafeSeat1 like I do. In the cart I use, there is barely room for anything else in the basket. The SS1 eats up all the space.

Quote:

I have also done weekly shopping while balancing grocery bags (the reusable kind) on the back of a stroller, bringing them up to the front, and leaving them there, then going back for more. Yes, I have done that.
I'm glad you can do it. That is something I'll never do. That, to me, is a total waste of my time and energy, and prolongs a trip my kids easily become annoyed during. They hate shopping.

Quote:

It's totally possible in reality.
Not possible in *my* reality.

Our carts used to have hooks on the side which I used for hanging my bags. Now the carts are hookless. So my only option is the basket. I've tried putting groceries on the bottom part of the cart but they always ALWAYS roll or fall off, then I spend all my time chasing after them.

I often shop with all 4 children, by myself.

Quote:

Honestly, though, if you are taking six kids shopping (and I've never met a family that does this, though I know several with more than four children), are you really able to stay with your card, with no other children in it??? I mean so consistently that you know the cart is never going to get knocked into?
Yep. My children behave very well while shopping. I never need to go running off after any of them, and they are 5 and under.

Quote:

There are so, so, so many options, even if your kid doesn't want to be worn.
But no, there really _aren't_ that many options. Even if I did bring a stroller to the store, how on earth am I supposed to push a stroller AND a cart AND watch my kids? (For the record, the only flip-over I've ever had with any of my kids was while they were in strollers.)

Quote:

I mean you could easily say, "With six kids we could never fit that many boosters in the car." But you don't. It's not a negotiable. It's a PITA, but you find a way. You find a way to have your kids with you in the parking lot. You find a way to get your kids non-chokeable food. You can find a way to keep your kid less than three feet off the ground.
You aren't understanding that the risk of putting infants in carriers in carts IS NOT equal to traveling without carseats. For some of us, we don't find the need to "find another way" because the method we're using isn't a problem.

Quote:

Every time my kid jumps on the back of the cart, I literally see her little future flash before my eyes.
You'd probably flip to see me sometimes, then - baby in the cart, kid in the basket, kids hanging on the sides of the basket.







Not once has my cart even come close to tipping. Not once have I ever been run into. (I did, however, smack my kid's head into a wall once when back-carrying.)


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Well, I certainly wouldn't say that people are negligent! I'm just saying, when you know the risks, it's hardly wise to put the baby up there. Not that people are somehow negligent.


Ah, but there's the rub. We don't know the risk. No one here has managed to prove (or even suggest using relevant data) that putting infants in a bucket seat on the cart is more dangerous than the alternatives.

I am far more fearful for my child's life when driving to the grocery store than while in it. Auto accidents are the #1 killer of children in the US. I have no earthly clue how many children are seriously injured or killed by riding in an infant carrier on a stroller, but I'd bet it's not very many.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Soooo... are doctors not parents, or do you not count practicing medicine (meeting with clients 12 hrs a day, six or even seven days a week) not work?

The way you phrased it, you made it sound like that AAP was an organization of volunteer parents who make sacrifices to be on the board. NOT a bunch of doctors who probably have a nanny to help out with their kids in the first place, and if not a nanny they probably have a wife at home taking care of them. I don't see a sacrifice at all. It's just more opportunity for them to try to boss people around. I have no trust for Peds. Period!

As for the rest of your nonessential post.. well that is what I find it to be, nonsense. Most people with six children do not need to find a way to fit six boosters in a car becuase the vast majority of them do not have six children in booster seats. I have four kids, and one in a booster and one in a car seat. So no need to fit six of them in a car. Furthermore anyone with six kids would need a car that fits 7-8 people and therefor COULD fit six booster seats in the car if the need should arise.

I also don't get your point of chasing children in the store leaving the cart with the baby in it and it getting crashed into? How would that be any different if the child were in a stroller and you left it to chase other children and it was crashed into? Your logic eludes me.

And last but not least, an infant is not BALANCING four feet off the ground in the cart. If the parent has a lick of sense, they have made sure the seat is securely attached on the cart and therefore it is not wobbling and balancing four feet off the ground.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermomlikeu* 
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am a mom just like you that invented a product to make shopping easier for myself and my son. I really like to take my time shopping and I hated putting my son in the child seat provided because he was always so uncomfortable. Not to mention that it was hard to get his legs in and out of the leg holes without his shoes falling off and stuff.

What does this have to do with infant carriers? That's the subject at hand - not bigger kids in the child seat of the cart.

Quote:

I would love other mothers feedback on my product. I am just getting started and the website is not complete, but you will get a good idea of what it is. Thanks!
My only advice is if you are _that_ concerned about shopping cart safety, then I hope you're also concerned about car safety. In the image gallery the boy (your son?) has his shoulder belt behind him. In a collision, the lapbelt would either cause him to submarine under the belt or cause terrible internal organ damage - likely both. He needs the shoulder portion as well. You should fix that.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermomlikeu* 
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am a mom just like you that invented a product to make shopping easier for myself and my son. I really like to take my time shopping and I hated putting my son in the child seat provided because he was always so uncomfortable. Not to mention that it was hard to get his legs in and out of the leg holes without his shoes falling off and stuff. I used to put him in the basket but had to keep saying, "sit down" everytime he changed positions because he was uncomfortable. I decided to make a small seat that attaches to the inside of the basket with a seatbelt for keeping him seated. It worked great and is excellent for mothers with more than one child under the age of 5. He loves his Qubie and we take it everywhere. If you would like to see it please go to Kidqubie.com and check it out. I would love other mothers feedback on my product. I am just getting started and the website is not complete, but you will get a good idea of what it is. Thanks!

I can't imagien lugging something tha tbig everywhere.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
The way you phrased it, you made it sound like that AAP was an organization of volunteer parents who make sacrifices to be on the board. *NOT a bunch of doctors who probably have a nanny to help out with their kids in the first place, and if not a nanny they probably have a wife at home taking care of them*. I don't see a sacrifice at all. It's just more opportunity for them to try to boss people around. I have no trust for Peds. Period!

As for the rest of your nonessential post.. well that is what I find it to be, nonsense. Most people with six children do not need to find a way to fit six boosters in a car becuase the vast majority of them do not have six children in booster seats. I have four kids, and one in a booster and one in a car seat. So no need to fit six of them in a car. Furthermore anyone with six kids would need a car that fits 7-8 people and therefor COULD fit six booster seats in the car if the need should arise.

I also don't get your point of chasing children in the store leaving the cart with the baby in it and it getting crashed into? How would that be any different if the child were in a stroller and you left it to chase other children and it was crashed into? Your logic eludes me.

And last but not least, an infant is not BALANCING four feet off the ground in the cart. If the parent has a lick of sense, they have made sure the seat is securely attached on the cart and therefore it is not wobbling and balancing four feet off the ground.

OT: but wow, Anit, that's kind of sexist dont you think? All of our doctors, with the exception of my daughters cardiologist are female. I supposed some of them may have a wife and home, but most of them don't.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OT: but wow, Anit, that's kind of sexist dont you think? All of our doctors, with the exception of my daughters cardiologist are female. I supposed some of them may have a wife and home, but most of them don't.

I have never run into a female pediatrician. I suppose some exist.. but in my experience I have never seen one. And no I don't think it is sexist.. I said EITHER a nanny OR a wife.


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## moaningminny (Dec 31, 2007)

My daughter's pediatrician is a female, and actually, every pediatrician she has ever seen in her life has been female.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

I feel like I have a middle position here. I think it is clearly less safe to put your child on top of the cart in an infant car seat than many other options (bucket in cart basket, baby carrier, stroller). However, the risk may or may not be great. It depends on the shopping cart and the car seat. I didn't put my bucket on top of the cart. It didn't fit right. It would only click at a very strange angle. I wore my kids or put the bucket in the main basket. (I never had trouble buying LOTS of groceries when the bucket was in the main basket but then again, I had a small bucket.)

So I don't worry about people putting their kids in the bucket on top of the cart generally. I don't think that is the inherent problem. However, I have been horrified when I see parents use the buckets precariously perched unsecurely or at strange angles. Or when the parent leaves the baby unattended. These are the things that scare me.

If someone asked my opinion on this I would say you should try to avoid doing it but if you do do it always keep a hand on the seat. (I wouldn't give someone unsolicited advice on this.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
The way you phrased it, you made it sound like that AAP was an organization of volunteer parents who make sacrifices to be on the board. NOT a bunch of doctors who probably have a nanny to help out with their kids in the first place, and if not a nanny they probably have a wife at home taking care of them. I don't see a sacrifice at all. It's just more opportunity for them to try to boss people around. I have no trust for Peds. Period!

As for the rest of your nonessential post.. well that is what I find it to be, nonsense. Most people with six children do not need to find a way to fit six boosters in a car becuase the vast majority of them do not have six children in booster seats. I have four kids, and one in a booster and one in a car seat. So no need to fit six of them in a car. Furthermore anyone with six kids would need a car that fits 7-8 people and therefor COULD fit six booster seats in the car if the need should arise.

I also don't get your point of chasing children in the store leaving the cart with the baby in it and it getting crashed into? How would that be any different if the child were in a stroller and you left it to chase other children and it was crashed into? Your logic eludes me.

And last but not least, an infant is not BALANCING four feet off the ground in the cart. If the parent has a lick of sense, they have made sure the seat is securely attached on the cart and therefore it is not wobbling and balancing four feet off the ground.

1. The doctors do volunteer their time to help others, and they often are parents. Taking the time to be a member of that organization requires a sacrifice of time. Sorry that you have chosen to distrust every member of an entire profession. I think doctors are people. I know four pediatricians personally, and none of them have or had nannies.

2. You might not be able to make sense of my post, but if a child has to be in a booster until s/he is 4'9", you could easily have six kids in boosters. In any case it was just an example! There are plenty of things that are harder with six kids, but that you do because you have to.

3. The shopping cart is always balancing on four wheels, and therefore, a child in a bucket on a shopping cart is always balancing.

4. And finally, it's safer to have a kid in a stroller when you walk away, than to walk away from a cart, because the kid is closer to the ground, and strollers are generally much more stable than shopping carts.

I don't know what you mean about my post not being essential. It's part of the discussion, and of course I don't have to keep going on and on, but then, none of us do. This whole message board is not essential, really.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Wow, lots of opinions here. Lets summarize the whole thing by saying it would be better not to put you child on top of the shopping cart.

Fact remains, going to and from the grocery store in your car is thousands of times more dangerous than keeping a baby in the shopping cart. Thousands of children die each year in car accidents in US, 550 kids drown each year, and 25 kids die from a falling televisions set. As far as I know it's extremely rare to have a child be seriously injured in a grocery store but please correct me if I'm wrong.

It all depends what we're comparing with when we call baby on shopping cart "dangerous".


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

I didn't say it wasn't essential, I said it was nonsensical, meaning, a lot of what you said was nonsense in my opinion. (and the booster law is 8 not 4'9")

Furthermore if something is on four wheels it is not balancing it is sitting. Now if it was on two wheels you would be balancing it but four wheels are not balancing. And last I checked, a stroller has four wheels as well, so does that mean it is balancing as well? Or a wagon?

As for peds, in my experience, they have demanded my children get vaccinated, or I go elsewhere. I have been told "I want that baby in her crib by your next visit!" Formula is just as good as breast milk. I have had them OD my child on morphine. I have been told that if tylonal doesn't bring down the fever just to give the child more until it does, if the dynatap doesn't make the child sleepy I am not giving her enough. Oh the list goes on but you get my gist. And this is at least four different peds I have heard this garbage from. Nope I don't trust peds. Their agenda does not match what I wish for my family.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I didn't say it wasn't essential, I said it was nonsensical, meaning, a lot of what you said was nonsense in my opinion. (and the booster law is 8 not 4'9")

Furthermore if something is on four wheels it is not balancing it is sitting. Now if it was on two wheels you would be balancing it but four wheels are not balancing. And last I checked, a stroller has four wheels as well, so does that mean it is balancing as well? Or a wagon?

As for peds, in my experience, they have demanded my children get vaccinated, or I go elsewhere. I have been told "I want that baby in her crib by your next visit!" Formula is just as good as breast milk. I have had them OD my child on morphine. I have been told that if tylonal doesn't bring down the fever just to give the child more until it does, if the dynatap doesn't make the child sleepy I am not giving her enough. Oh the list goes on but you get my gist. And this is at least four different peds I have heard this garbage from. Nope I don't trust peds. Their agenda does not match what I wish for my family.

Depends on where you are... here it's 8 or 4'9" or 80lbs. And fwiw best practice says that the child must pass the 5 step test to be safe to be out of a booster, and since that could push them to needing to be in a booster until 10 or older... you could easily have 6 kids in seats at once.

At any rate don't take your child to a pediatrician if you don't feel it is in their best interest. My older son has never seen one and won't unless there is reason for it. We too do not vaccinate and prefer a more natural approach. However that being said I think that your whole attitude towards an entire group of people is offensive and no better than any other stereotype whether it be for race or choice of life partner or location of residence.


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## karkli (Sep 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I have never run into a female pediatrician. I suppose some exist.. but in my experience I have never seen one. And no I don't think it is sexist.. I said EITHER a nanny OR a wife.

My children's pediatrician is female. My pediatrician when I was young was female. That's not to say that either or both of them _didn't_ have wives at home or at work somewhere, but if you were trying to imply that doctors - specifically, pediatricians - are men, you might want to do a little research on the subject. Pediatrics, in fact, is a field saturated with female professionals.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_19570318/

Quote:

Today, 42 percent of all pediatricians and 58 percent of those under age 45 are women, according to the 1996 Pediatric Specialty Survey. The share will continue to grow; in 1995, 63 percent of pediatric interns were women.
On topic, if your point is that the AAP's guidelines should not be taken as gospel, then I actually agree with you. But their own parenting situations are irrelevant to the discussion. The AAP does not make _parenting_ recommendations. They make _safety_ recommendations. Parenting is a skill (and talent!) based on a complex combination of emotion, intuition, instinct, and science. Safety, on the other hand, is based on statistics, probability and margin of error. I hope that the AAP does not get these two concepts as confused as lay people are apt to.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
At any rate don't take your child to a pediatrician if you don't feel it is in their best interest. My older son has never seen one and won't unless there is reason for it. We too do not vaccinate and prefer a more natural approach. However that being said I think that your whole attitude towards an entire group of people is offensive and no better than any other stereotype whether it be for race or choice of life partner or location of residence.

What attitude is that? The one where I don't believe they are gods to be bowed down to and their every wish and demand adhered to? Is it the one where I take what they say with a grain of salt? Or the one where I don't believe that the AAP is an organization full of volunteer parents sacrificing their time and lives to make the world a better place?

I think you are reading more into what I said that what was there.

And NO WHERE did I say all peds were male. I said in *my experience* peds are male. I also said that they probably (probably meaning in all likelihood not absolutly) had wives or nanny's. See that could mean that they have either or and in no way is sexist. Because to work outside the home you need SOME TYPE Of caregiver for your children, they can't stay home alone.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karkli* 
On topic, if your point is that the AAP's guidelines should not be taken as gospel, then I actually agree with you. But their own parenting situations are irrelevant to the discussion. The AAP does not make _parenting_ recommendations. They make _safety_ recommendations. Parenting is a skill (and talent!) based on a complex combination of emotion, intuition, instinct, and science. Safety, on the other hand, is based on statistics, probability and margin of error. I hope that the AAP does not get these two concepts as confused as lay people are apt to.

OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I
It's totally possible in reality. The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.

Just for the record.


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## karkli (Sep 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??

Yes! (At least, I was.)


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karkli* 
Yes! (At least, I was.)









Well now that we have that straight!


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karkli* 
Parenting is a skill (and talent!) based on a complex combination of emotion, intuition, instinct, and science. Safety, on the other hand, is based on statistics, probability and margin of error. I hope that the AAP does not get these two concepts as confused as lay people are apt to.

I know I am getting off topic but I believe the AAP does get these two concepts mixed up. Since I dislike much of what they say, I make it a practice not to quote them on things I do happen to agree with. They have lost all credibiity with me.

For instance, they are against cosleeping because it is a "safety" issue. But they are absurd. A baby dies or is injured in a crib, they release guidelines for safe crib-sleeping. A baby dies or is injured in a bed and they call for a complete ban on the practice. I actually think it is borderline rascist as they are alienating entire cultures who regularly practice cosleeping. My Korean friend was essentially called a reckless idiot by her pediatrician. Disgusting. I have other experiences regarding sleeping (for a child without a health problem related to sleep), potty-learning (for a child with normal development and physiology) and discipline where they give opinionated, subjective advice. I tried to understand why this is their business and I figured it is because they think they are giving safety advice. No, it WAS parenting advice and I don't want unsolicited advice which is misrepresented as health information. And in my experience, when I do get safety advice they don't know what they are talking about (e.g. car seat safety-the ped told me it is illegal to rear-face a child after 12 months old).


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??

OK except you and I read that sentence totally differently... *The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.*

I read that as they are doctors who also have children which would make them working parents and it does require sacrifice for most people to go to work and be a parent at the same time. I read it as these aren't just some random people who have never interacted with children before. Now it does read that they are all parents, but I presumed that the OP just meant some of them and mistyped it to read all of them, I never got anywhere she meant they were volunteers who had no safety/health background.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
OK except you and I read that sentence totally differently... *The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.*

The suggestions posted by the AAP are not based on the reality of a middle to low income family with municipal children to shop with.

Bring another adult to watch your children?









Bring a wagon or stroller to push WHILE you try to maneuver a cart full of groceries for a large family?







:

Leave the children at home with another adult?







: Yea.. I wanna do my shopping after dinner at 7 or 8pm when DH is home.

Tell your older children to walk and praise them for behaving?







Yea that works.

Shop online? No stores in my area offer this.

Lets not forget not letting the kids ride in the basket, having older children push the cart, or riding on the side.

Furthermore the play areas do not watch children younger than age two so this is not going to help with infants and toddlers anyway.

Like I said.. their recommendations are not based on reality therefor I do not believe they are parents and or primary care givers of their children. (the ones on the AAP, not all peds.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

Leave the children at home with another adult? : Yea.. I wanna do my shopping after dinner at 7 or 8pm when DH is home.
I don't want to do my shopping while my DH is in training with the Army, but I do it, and I work all my contacts to leave my two-year-old there if I can't go where there's a play area.

Balancing a baby on top of a cart is not a safe option. When it's not, you find a way.

People did grocery shopping before bucket seats and when or if it becomes illegal, they'll still do it. I am not buying the "for some people, they would never be able to shop, and therefore starve to death, if they cannot put a kid on top of a cart" argument.

People do what they have to.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

What are these play places? I'm in Canada and I've never seen a grocery store with one. Are they like babysitters?

The only place here with something like that is IKEA, but the only take potty trained kids over a certain height. So it wouldn't be any use for a child small enough to be in a bucket.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I don't want to do my shopping while my DH is in training with the Army, but I do it, and I work all my contacts to leave my two-year-old there if I can't go where there's a play area.

Balancing a baby on top of a cart is not a safe option. When it's not, you find a way.

People did grocery shopping before bucket seats and when or if it becomes illegal, they'll still do it. I am not buying the "for some people, they would never be able to shop, and therefore starve to death, if they cannot put a kid on top of a cart" argument.

People do what they have to.

Here go with the balancing again. The car seats securely attach to the cart.

There is no way in hell I am leaving my kids with my mother to go grocery shopping, and I in no way believe it is enough of a danger to make my life a living hell by going shopping after DH gets home from work, dinner, and putting the kids to bed after getting up at 6am and putting in a full day.

Yes people do what they have too... and not shopping with children is something they DON'T HAVE to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
What are these play places? I'm in Canada and I've never seen a grocery store with one. Are they like babysitters?

The only place here with something like that is IKEA, but the only take potty trained kids over a certain height. So it wouldn't be any use for a child small enough to be in a bucket.

The ones here only take children over the age to two and no older the Kindergarten. (I don't remember if they stop taking them in K or if K is the oldest they can be.) They also have crappy hours.. they don't open til after 10 am, close at 5, and are sporadically closed unannounced throughout the day. So you can't always guarantee they will be open. I think you only have an hour too. So yea.. no good for infants anyway.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
People do what they have to.

You're right.

Problem is, sometimes what people HAVE to do might not be what you'd LIKE them to do.

Like I said earlier, I rarely do this, but when I do I do it carefully and conscientiously. I remember one time when I had to make a run to the store because 1. I was completely out of thyroid meds and had been for two days, 2. I was out of diapers and 3. Baby had a bad rash and needed ointment.

Problem was, DH was working his 24 hour shift, my parents were away for the weekend and my regular sitter was nowhere around. So I took myself and my four children to the store, in the rain, threw them all into the basket with a raincoat over their heads and put the infant carrier in the cart, and limped to the door. I had a sprained ankle. I could BARELY get around.

Wearing the baby at that point wasn't an option because 1. My ankle was too weak to bear the weight for the trip 2. It was raining and I couldn't finagle the sling even if I'd wanted to without getting both of us soaked and 3. He didn't fit in my carrier at that point anyway.

So my ONLY option? Put the carrier in the cart and HOLD ON to the carrier. It's what I HAD to do.

But I'm so glad that you think there's always a better solution and that I failed to keep my child as safe as possible. I guess I should have just waited another day, till DH came home, and gone another night without my meds, wrapped cloths around the baby's bottom and told him to just "deal" with his rash.









I really have no more energy to spend on this thread. If YOU think it's so dangerous, then YOU don't do it. But don't condemn everyone else who does it if they are doing it carefully and safely. I think every mother here knows what works best for her and her child(ren), and every person here knows what warrants doing this and what doesn't.

It's not _your_ call to say they need to do better and try harder....honestly, if you are THAT concerned about safety, then you might really consider never allowing your kids in the car for a trip anywhere....car collisions being the number one killer of kids and all.....


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Current, nonexpired carseats do not attach "securely" to carts. The grid on most carts is different than the hooks on a carseat base. They may click, but it is not ncessarily a secure or safe fit. Almost all carseat manufacturers acknowledge this about current models.

I agree that we all assess risk differently and we are willing to accept differing levels of risk vs. convenience. I don't want to argue about that. I didn't put the carseat on the shopping cart but I let my daughter use the restroom alone in some public places. Again, we all make different choices. That's fine. But it's just absurd to argue that there is no risk in putting a carseat on a shopping cart. It is explicitly stated in most carseat manuals (of current seats) that it is not safe and not allowed.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

It's now allowed? By whom? There is no law against it, I am sure there never will be a law against it, therefor it is allowed. It's up to the parent to make sure it is safe, not the car seat manufacturer, not some store employee, the parent. I will be damned if someone else is going to tell me what is and what is not allowed with my child when I have determined that it is "safe".

I agree with a pp poster.. this thread has gotten ridiculous. You don't like it, don't do it, but don't condemn someone else for not reaching the same conclusion as you have.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

It's a misuse of the product (infant seat). Do what you want with your child, but don't argue that it's "safe".

It is up to the carseat manufacturer to test the product and set guidelines for safe use. Carseats were designed for cars, not carts. And stores can set guidelines for what you are allowed to do in the store.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Current, nonexpired carseats do not attach "securely" to carts. The grid on most carts is different than the hooks on a carseat base. They may click, but it is not ncessarily a secure or safe fit. Almost all carseat manufacturers acknowledge this about current models.

My graco snugride (<2yrs old) latches quite securely onto many carts. It's impossible to get off without releasing the latch. I've tried. It doesn't work for all carts, but that's why I check.

Quote:

I agree that we all assess risk differently and we are willing to accept differing levels of risk vs. convenience. I don't want to argue about that. I didn't put the carseat on the shopping cart but I let my daughter use the restroom alone in some public places. Again, we all make different choices. That's fine. But it's just absurd to argue that there is no risk in putting a carseat on a shopping cart. It is explicitly stated in most carseat manuals (of current seats) that it is not safe and not allowed.
Did anyone argue that there is no risk? I don't remember that. I agree, there is some risk. I just think it's inappropriate to say that it is completely unsafe or "balancing a baby 4 feet in the air" or "toddering on carts" or should be banned. That makes it sound like you're balancing the seat on a highwire or maybe a unicycle, rather than fastening it securely to a four-wheeled cart... Especially since I have yet to see a single statistic of how many babies are injured while riding harnessed in their infant seats, clipped onto the shopping carts.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Page 21 of the Snugride manual from 2007 reads in part "Warning!... NEVER place carrier in the top of a shopping cart."

And yes, it seems like there is an argument that the seat is "meant" to be clipped to a cart and therefore it is perfectly safe. That's what I take issue with. It's not. If a person decides that she wants to do it despite the research and warnings, then fine (and I don't mean that snarkily at all). It's an educated decision -- one that I disagree with, but we'll never all agree on anything, and neither of us are likely to change our minds.

But if someone is stating that there's nothing wrong with it and if buckets weren't meant to be clipped to carts they shouldn't be able to be clipped (I can *make* a lot of things do stuff they aren't supposed to!), then I think that's fair game for discussion.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm closing this thread, as it is getting off topic and a bit out of hand. Please keep in mind the forum guidelines:

Quote:

We ask that threads focus on safety information gathering, education, advocacy and sharing of personal experience rather than critiques of individuals or venting about others. Insulting, belittling or condemning others is neither productive nor appropriate. While we understand that it can be difficult to watch others make choices that are not in line with your own, the focus of this forum is on "safety." We ask that discussion focus on facts and information rather than venting about others who make different decisions for their families. Please avoid negative characterizations and generalizations about others to respect the diversity of our online community.
If you have any questions, please PM me.


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