# Why shouldn't AP be about rules?



## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

This is kind of branch off the "cop-out" thread, but my pet peeve is when people say that AP isn't about following a set of rules.

Why not? Seeing AP as a set of rules has had nothing but positive effects in my family.

Rule#1 - NO CIO

There's no excuse. End of story. I don't care what the circumstances are in anyone's life. No adult is allowed to take out their own frustrations or inability to cope on a baby. The same people who let their babies scream inconsolably for hours would never dare, in a million years, ignore their boss, or a police officer. If you can set your problems aside for other adults, you can bloody well set them aside for your infant.

Rule#2 - Breastfeed

I had breast surgery when I was only 19, and I was told by everyone, including my midwife, that I would not be able to breastfeed. But breastfeeding is a rule of AP, so I decided that my baby would spend as much time as she wanted at the breast REGARDLESS of whether she was getting milk. Supplementing with formula doesn't prevent you from letting your baby nurse. Even if they get a teaspoon, it's better than nothing, and the nuzzling and sucking is what your baby has been programmed to expect. I know there are some women who cannot breastfeed (very few, but some), but that is no excuse to never let your baby nurse. The only women who should not have a baby at their breast are those who are taking medications that would poison their little ones.

In my case, the MIDWIFE WAS WRONG. I can breastfeed, and I would never have known that if I didn't see breastfeeding as an absolute rule.

Feeding your baby formula because you can't produce enough milk is no excuse to stop breastfeeding. Use both.

RULE #3 - Baby bonds with a primary caregiver

Before I had my first baby, I thought daycare was a fine thing. But then I realized that daycare is only fine for the parents. We scaled down our life, so that I could stay home. We moved to a smaller house, in an older neighborhood, and lo and behold, found ourselves surrounded by like-minded people who have done the same thing. I have a whole community of families who are making sane choices for their children, right outside my front door. I would never have known it if my husband and I hadn't decided to follow the AP rules and give our children ONE primary caregiver to bond to.

RULE #4 - Wear your baby

I refused every baby gadget that was offered to me (and they were all offered, at one time or another) so I never had the option of putting my baby in a plastic substitute for Mama's arms. No stroller, no playpen, no crib, no highchair, no saucer, no nothing.

Carrying Joy for the first few weeks was just murder. My back hurt, my feet hurt, my arms ached, my shoulders cried every night. But babywearing is an AP rule, and I followed it. Five years later, I am 20 pounds lighter than when I first got pregnant, fit and strong, and all because I carry my children. I don't pay membership dues to any fancy health care club - I carry my babies! The best, and cheapest fitness plan going.

RULE #5 - Cosleep

Babies need a grown up nearby. They can DIE if you keep them isolated behind bars in another room.

I hated sleeping, all three of us, in our queen sized bed, at first. It was crowded, it was noisy, it was distracting. But co-sleeping is an AP rule, too, and I followed it. I decided my furniture was NOT more important than my children and dismantled my beautiful Quaker set, which sits now, safe and sound in the basement. We are now four, in two queen size beds, side by side in the master bedroom, and all very comfortable and happy. Every night I go to sleep, looking at the faces of my beautiful little girls, thinking how soon it will all be over, and that I will never regret one minute I spent cuddling them, listening to them breath, asleep.

Now my husband has an office, I have an office and the kids have a school/playroom. It's brilliant. What a waste of space to have all those bedrooms.

Nothing but good news all around for our family. So why shouldn't AP be a set of rules, when following them can have such marvelous repercussions?

Here's to the Rules! Too bad more people didn't follow them.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I'm glad your rules work for you. However, being AP is being an 'attached parent'. It is about more than a list of rules. It is listening to your child and responding to your childs needs. It's wonderful that things worked out just the way you wanted. What would you have done if your child hated the sling? What if you desperately wants to nurse but couldn't b/c of your breast surgery. You said you MADE it work, but it's not possible for everyone. (I will agree that it is possible for MOST with enough work.)

I don't see why it's necessary to compare ourselves as mothers. So I'm not AP in your eyes b/c my child likes to sit in a baby swing while I take a shower or do some housework? I do plenty of things that are considered AP. I don't feel the need to list them to justify myself to anyone. Why do we feel the need to 'one up' other people? Does it make us feel better to put others down?

Honestly, I don't care about the labels. If someone calls me mainstream, that's fine. If someone calls me AP, that's fine. I do what is right by my family and that's all that matters.

Again, I'm glad your rules work for you and I hope you feel better about creating that list. What will you do when someone creates an AP list that has something on it that you don't do?


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## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

How can breastfeeding not work? You put the baby to your breast, and let them suckle. If they aren't getting enough milk, you give them a bottle of formula, and then put them back on your breast to suckle and fall asleep. Why does providing them with food from a bottle eliminate the need to provide them with the comfort and closeness of suckling at a real live human breast?

This is what I don't get. Even if baby gets 100% of their nutrition from the bottle, why wouldn't you give your child the comfort and closeness of the breast. That's worth enough, in itself.

My first baby loved the sling from the get go and Juniper, my second, hated being confined and swaddled. She needed to have her arms and legs free, and for me to be in constant motion. Because babywearing was a rule for me, I worked with her to find a position that was comfortable for both of us. Junie is now 2 1/2, and loves being cuddled in the sling. All I had to do, when she was a baby, was figure out how she wanted to be held.

Being different is no excuse to strap your baby into a plastic carrier and then blame in on the baby. Nonsense. Parents have an obligation, as far as I'm concerned, to figure out how their children want to be carried. A parent's inability to figure that out is no excuse to leave a baby to be comforted by polyester and plastic.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Because not all babies respond well to the "rules"
I think those things you listed should be tried since most babies prefer them but not all babies. My niece for example hated to be cuddled and carried almost from birth. The sling never worked well with her.
I have friends who's babies didn't take well to cosleeping and did better in a seperate bed or room, meaning they didn't wake when left to sleep alone but woke often when sleeping with mom and dad.

The one rule is to be attached to your child by meeting their needs to the best of your ability.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amarasmom*
The one rule is to be attached to your child by meeting their needs to the best of your ability.

amen!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I’ve been off line for a while so I missed the thread you’re responding to. I will say that I tend to disagree with you. Not that I don’t think the things you mentioned are important because I do. I just think that lists (especially a short one like the one you gave) usually leave out some of the most important issues of parenting and they don’t tend to take into account that children and families are all unique.


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## noodle4u (Jul 19, 2002)

its a good start Juniperjoy, specially the first one.
You left out no physical,mental,spiritual,or sexual abuse.

I dont %100 agree with the carrying around one though. To carry your child is definately best no butts about it, but that cant be set in stone as there are factors that make it unable to be applied. Either with the carry-er, or the baby. eg-claustrophobic baby,or broken bones.

A really good point you made on the breastfeeding issue. How many people say they cant or it doesnt work without actually trying? to many imo.

AP techniques arnt really something you can set in stone, though this list is a definate guidline of how it should be.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

bad back fracture, oh well. i'm not defensive. i carried when i could, but if i don't meet your criteria i can deal with it, lol. i've been reading mothering for 20 years, parenting for 18, & if juniperjoy doesn't think i'm ap enough because i have a stroller i'm not losing sleep.

(i'm with you on the bfing, tho'. but is cosleeping adequate in your eyes in a cosleeper, or a crib near the bed? because all night, every day, in the actual bed with me & i *will* lose sleep. i'm much more attached if i'm not in a zombie-like fog all day.)

suse


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think carriers will be more important to us with subsequent children as dd fit nicely in our arms and she was the only concern we had at the time.


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## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Babies need to sleep within touching distance of a living BREATHING human. Whether that's in the bed with you, or in a co-sleeper doesn't matter.

They should not be in isolation down the hall.

Bad back fracture: work with a physiotherapist. If you can do the laundry, you can carry the baby. Nothing builds muscles like carrying your baby.

Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

So, I just think you (OP) have a somewhat limited idea of the huge variety of families and circumstances there are here at MDC and especially the world. I’d be the first to agree that the situation for parents is bad (in N. America and elsewhere) but refusing to recognize that we all have our own unique challenges and advantages is not going to help, IMO.


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## Lilg127 (May 19, 2003)

Because my baby screamed bloody murder everytime I put him in a sling till he was 3 months old. If I'd worn him it would be worse... believe me when I sat with my house in shambles holding my baby not being able to cook dinner or get things done I would have loved for him to like the sling. (He screamed more bloody murder if I put him down, so that wasn't an option either... poor guy had a rough baby hood)

I think me putting Nick in a sling back than would have been a lot less AP than not doing so. Up to this day he is claustrophobic and hates to be covered up in blankets and such. Although he likes the sling now that he can sit up in it.

One of my closests friends litterally produced no milk, the baby couldn't get any out. She supplemented with formula even though it killed her to do so. My other friend has galcotesimia history in her family. She is TTC now and will be an AP parent when she has a baby I'm sure of it, but may not be able to breastfeed if her child is galcotesimic and can't handle the milk protiens.

My point is that not all situations are created equal and certainly not all babies are created equal. I don't ever want to live by a hard rule of do this that way because sometimes it can be to the detriment of the baby (Such as if I had worn Nick in a sling in the new born days)

I think the one rule to AP parenting is no CIO. TO me AP parenting is about responding to your child's needs and if you CIO than you simply aren't doing that. Other than that I agree with all the guidelines and that they are best to try (You can bet I'll put baby#2 in a sling when he/she gets here in May and pray that it works this time) I just don't agree with hard fast rules to me thats not what AP is about.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

The problem with rules is that it doesn't take into account special circumstances.

Breastfeeding - what happens when the baby won't latch, for whatever reason? Well, you say, you can always pump. I am pumping for my cleft palate baby. Let me tell you, until you've walked a mile in that person's shoes, don't judge. It is the very hardest thing I've ever had to do. I am stretched to my absolute limit because of it. I'm not doing it because I'm AP. My pumping does nothing to connect me further to my baby. I do it because it is healthiest, because it is her birthright to have breastmilk, and because she needs the best start possible. But I will not pass judgement on anyone that is not able to keep it up. Nor should you.

Cosleeping - This doesn't work with a lot of families. If the baby doesn't sleep well with others (yes, they do exist), the parents shouldn't force the baby to sleep with them. That would be rather the opposite of the idea of AP.

Slinging - There are people that have bad back, hip, leg problems that prohibit them from wearing their baby all the time. And boy, aren't you the judgemental one for suggesting that all back problems can be solved with therapy! Some of those problems are not muscular. A person should not have to be in excruciating pain just so they can carry the baby. That doesn't make them more attached, loved or cared for. There are also babies that don't like it. Mine only likes it when she is sleepy or I'm vacuuming. Otherwise, she struggles to get out.

The problem with rules is that it feels like parenting out of a cook book. You can't raise a kid with a formula. You have to listen to your child, be sensitive to their needs, and figure out what they are, and how to provide for them. Life isn't so pat and easy. There are shades of gray.

One other thing, your rules only cover babies. Those babies grow up into kids, teenagers, and adults. Attachment parenting doesn't stop at the end of babyhood. It is much more flexible than that.

Bec


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

OMG you are such a wonderful mother and your kids are so very lucky to have you instead of say my bad single mom friend who had to put her boy in day care so she could go to school and get an education;despite her being the most loving and attentive and "smart" mom I've every seen, her son doesn't have a chance because she puts what is best for her above what is best for him in the breaking of an AP rule because these rules are what has been proven to universally work on every single kid and on every single family, and working moms are breaking an AP rule and thus are going to raise unhappy kids because every single caregiver is the best caregiver when home with them because, of course, everyone feels the same way you feel and thus everyone accepts your rules as THE rules.

And I guess we need to kick all those single moms and working moms whose dh make didly squat off this board along with all the dedicated women who want a wonderful family and a wonderful career at the same time and work like hell to have both cause once we have kids the importance of our own lives stop and that is definately the message I want to send to my daughter - that her desires and dreams and needs only important until the day when she births a child and thereafter only her child is important and for thw next 18 years her desires and dreams and needs are second to what is best for the child because we all know that "family" means nothing and "family happiness" means nothing, rather is it all what is best for the child and what is best for the child is a set of AP rules.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
So, I just think you (OP) have a somewhat limited idea of the huge variety of families and circumstances there are here at MDC and especially the world. I'd be the first to agree that the situation for parents is bad (in N. America and elsewhere) but refusing to recognize that we all have our own unique challenges and advantages is not going to help, IMO.

What an wonderful post. Wanna trade







(I was too snotty in mine







)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
What an wonderful post. Wanna trade







(I was too snotty in mine







)

:LOL Sure, I'll trade...


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
How can breastfeeding not work? You put the baby to your breast, and let them suckle...

Even if baby gets 100% of their nutrition from the bottle, why wouldn't you give your child the comfort and closeness of the breast. That's worth enough, in itself.


Uh, because if you aren't lactating then you *might* have a baby that gets completely frustrated, overwrought, and furious because no milk is coming out of your breast! And it's possible that you have a baby that never liked pacifiers and didn't want to suckle unless they were getting milk.

There is the "should" of this world and then there is the "reality".


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

"Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful."

As a fat, pregnant, North American mom who plans on APing according to what her baby responds to best, I would like to cordially invite you to self-insert your list of rules, right next to your opinion of fat people, into the orifice of your choice.


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## MamaToLance (Jun 26, 2004)

If being AP means being anything like the self-righteous OP, I'll opt out now. No one who hasn't stood in my shoes or anyone elses has any right whatsoever to judge. How dare she!!!

Signed,
A BFing, co-sleeping, fully-attached, FT working mama to one of the happiest little boys I know.


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## lillaurensmomma (Jul 5, 2003)

Apparently my daughter didnt make use of the time in the womb reading the AP rule book. She hated (and I do mean hated) to be snuggled all the time. We tried slings, snugglis. the baby bjorn, etc and she hated them all. She actually liked being in her infant car seat, the bouncy chair, or the swing. She didn't like being held all the time either. If she was awake (and not nursing) she wanted to be sitting up by herself. I could hold her for about 10 minutes before the screaming began. Put her in the bouncy chair and she was totally content. I'd sit next to her on the floor and talk to her and we'd laugh together. She is also not a cosleeper (still at 2.5). We sidecarred her crib so that it would be easier for to nurse but as soon as she was done she'd roll to the far side of the crib to sleep (she started rolling at about 2 months). After she nightweaned (herself, not my call) at 8 months we put the side back on the crib and then eventually moved her to her own room. She didn't mind a bit and she knew as soon as she made the slightest sound I was there to see what was up. She nursed until 20 months, but never followed the rules there either.

I think the only "rule" that applies to AP is the one listed by amarasmama. I listen to her cues and go with what works for herl

j


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Why shouldn't AP be about rules? Because we all have different rules. Sure, mine look like the ones you posted, but I also have others which you might not agree with. So whose rules are the right rules?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Juniper - Well, I think your rules are right on, even though I don't follow them perfectly all the time.

If you absolutely have to feed formula, why not only use the SNS? True, it's probably not as convenient as the bottle but if you were bfing, you wouldn't have the convenience of the bottle either.

But why not list "absolutely no spanking" as a rule? I think it's one of the most important. And how do you feel about education?


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

LOL. I love these kinds of threads. And I enjoyed the responses ICM and mamawanabe...you gals crack me up (and make good points). I'm pretty annoyed, so if I can't get this out right, I'll edit it later...

I'm really glad those 5 rules work so well for the OP, and glad that in her world every baby and every family is exactly the same so that they all work. I guess not only are there no other "rules" to AP, but that you fail as a parent if you don't follow all of them! Ignoring a baby crying and ignoring a police officer? Not sure how those compare, and I'm not sure how those mamas who have let their babies CIO are "setting aside their problems". Indeed, while I do not agree with CIO, I believe that there are mamas who follow all of the other rules (plus many more not listed), who did give in and let their babies CIO because they felt it was the best parenting they could do at the time. Let's try not to judge those whose lives we haven't lived, eh?

To say that babies "DIE" if you keep them "behind bars" in another room?! Geez, let's pull out some more propaganda and try to scare people into doing what may not be right for their families. Let's be realistic, shall we? Babies can die anywhere, anytime, and being next to a living, breathing person can't always stop that.

While I could go on and on, I need to get my waking baby from his fleece and carpet substitute for a mother...but one more thing...where did you get your rules, OP? Is there a book or a site that has them listed as rules that you HAVE to follow to be AP?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Yes, the list could get quite long. Discipline, education, circumcision, medical care, ear piercing, food choices, etc.

I can't imagine that any two people could ever agree on an identical list of rules.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

JuniperJoy, your list of rules looks very much like Attachment Parenting Intl. 'ideals'. I think they used to not call it 'ideals' but probably received a lot of feedback along the lines of the responses in this thread.

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/ideals.shtml

IMO, there are 'rules' in APing. One of them that seems to make the most difference is how children are respected or not. Not gentle discipline, per se, but what are the fundamental beliefs of the parent about children? Do they have equal say? Are they rational, reasonable individuals or not?

I also agree with API's list on no prolonged seperations from the baby. JMO.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

JuniperJoy, I just have to ask, are you as mean to people in real life as you are here? It's a good thing that your babies were amenable to your rules, because if they hadn't been, you'd have had some pretty miserable babies after you got done forcing them to do what you wanted them to do (the antithesis of AP). Cut other people some slack. You haven't lived anyone else's life but your own, so don't be so arrogant as to presume you know what's right for everyone else.

Wilma


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)




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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Just a reminder to keep the RULES of MDC in mind when posting.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

What makes you think that in all your extensive knowledge and experience (2 children,) that you are qualified to dictate the "rules" to the rest of the world? You expected everyone to jump on the bandwagon?
I'd like to invite you to visit special needs parenting but ask that you try to maintain your composure. No on there will ever live up to your standards of AP. Life is what you make of it and there has never been a perfect error proof mother. You will not be the first.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

So all the people attacking (yes, that's you) the OP, do you also disagree with Attachment Parenting International's list?

I hope certain posters are required to edit. Sheesh.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Playdoh,

if API presented their list as "rules" and defended their positions with words like "lazy" and "shameful", yes, I would disagree with them. Vehemently.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
So all the people attacking (yes, that's you) the OP, do you also disagree with Attachment Parenting International's list?

Nope, I certainly don't disagree. But there's a vast difference between presenting ideals as what we should strive for to be the best parents we can be and presenting rules that, if broken, basically mean we are crap for mothers and don't care enough to do right by our children.

Wilma


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
I hope certain posters are required to edit. Sheesh.

Yes, like the OP!


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I think we all know that personal attacks are not allowed. Yes this is a hot topic, yes people are going to disagree, but it needs to happen within the framework of the User Agreement.

*You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.*

This is an interesting subject and it would be beneficial to many if it were kept civil and opposing viewpoints presented in a respectful manner.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Dern me for thinking that the "rule" of AP was as *amarasmom* stated. Instead, *mamawanabe* has called me out --

Quote:

"OMG you are such a wonderful mother and your kids are so very lucky to have you instead of say my bad single mom friend who had to put her boy in day care so she could go to school and get an education;despite her being the most loving and attentive and "smart" mom I've every seen, her son doesn't have a chance because she puts what is best for her above what is best for him in the breaking of an AP rule because these rules are what has been proven to universally work on every single kid and on every single family, and working moms are breaking an AP rule and thus are going to raise unhappy kids because every single caregiver is the best caregiver when home with them because, of course, everyone feels the same way you feel and thus everyone accepts your rules as THE rules."
Except that I have a *girl* child, *mamawanabe*.









On the bright side of this thread, isn't it cool that we're all so passionate about parenting? I know parents who couldn't explain their parenting philosophy if Alex Trebek were offering them a show's winnings.


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## MamaToLance (Jun 26, 2004)

Even API's list says:

*"If you are a working parent you can practice AP when you are home to help you re-connect with your baby."*

Without judgment or criticism for those of us who do not have a choice but to work away from the home. No amount of financial planning, downsizing, etc. would make it possible for me to be a SAHM, no matter how badly I want to do so.

Signed,
A BFing, co-sleeping, fully-attached, FT working mama to one of the happiest little boys I know.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If you absolutely have to feed formula, why not only use the SNS? True, it's probably not as convenient as the bottle but if you were bfing, you wouldn't have the convenience of the bottle either.


Greaseball, You know as well as I do that that wouldn't work for everyone. The matter is that it's unfair to assume that a set of rules works for everyone. What's the point in rules that CANNOT be followed by all? Just to make typical moms wit typical babies feel good about themsleves?


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

API on cosleeping: Another option is a 'sidecar' arrangement-a crib or another bed along side the parents bed that the toddler can sleep in-or mom and baby, or daddy. Flexibility and experimentation are the key. Some families have a futon on the floor of the parents bedroom, so if a toddler starts out the first part of the night in their own room, when they get up in the night, they come in and sleep on the futon.

On breastfeeding: Breastfeed your baby - Breastfeeding meets baby's need for optimum nutrition and physical contact. Breastfeeding has many benefits to the baby, mother, and society and is the most natural way to meet so many of your baby's physical needs. While breastfeeding is the ideal way to feed a baby, parents who are not breastfeeding can still practice Attachment Parenting. We encourage parents who bottle-feed to use "breastfeeding" behaviors. In other words, hold your baby when feeding, talk to your baby and change positions during the feeding. Avoid the temptation to prop the baby's bottle since your baby will greatly benefit from your touch and holding.

On babywearing: If you don't "wear", be aware:

To hold your infant as often as possible (especially if bottle-feeding).

Avoid the overuse of baby devices (swings, pacifiers, jumpers, plastic carriers).

-----------------------------------------------------------There are NO RULES. The ideal is to be as responsive and attached to your baby as possible and comfortable for everyone.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/ideals.shtml

It's good for all of us to look at this list every once in a while, IMHO. AP is a set of ideals and beliefs, and not written in stone. If that were the case, they would never say things like "If that doesn't work for your family" or "In case x works better than y", do this. While obviously, there are preferred methods of doing things (co-sleep, bf, etc), there are exceptions that must be taken into consideration in every family.

ETA: my hearts light and I were posting at the same time! What she said!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Actually, I don't know. I've never used or seen a SNS. Why wouldn't it work?

I don't believe a set of rules works perfectly for everyone. I think the OP's rules are something I should strive for, and they give me other things to think about. Like, sometimes I am quick to assume my baby doesn't "like" the sling but really I may just need to find another position.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
The matter is that it's unfair to assume that a set of rules works for everyone. What's the point in rules that CANNOT be followed by all? Just to make typical moms wit typical babies feel good about themsleves?

Not even most typical moms with typical babies can do all of that without exception. At least, I can't.

We all know why there shouldn't be "rules" -- and those that don't get it yet have the rest of their life to learn why. Experience is a great teacher.

This culture doesn't support attachment parenting, making it much harder for us to strive for our ideals.

I'm content to believe the OP has never walked in my shoes (or yours) or she wouldn't make such a judgemental statement. One day, I believe that she will realize that life isn't black and white. It is constantly doing the best you can while striving for your ideals.

And it is lifting people up, not knocking them down.

If you feel really good about yourself, you don't have the same need to look down on others or constantly compare to prove to yourself how good you are.

I want to make a tee shirt that says "Support Mothers of Young Children! I am doing the best I can. Don't judge me. Offer to help." For now I am willing to take the dirty looks from both AP and mainstream moms who judge me to be "not good enough".


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I would, for some. Not all. It wouldn't work for a baby who simply doesn't want to suck an empty breast or a full breast for that matter. It wouldn't work for a baby who has severe clefting, health problems of a huge spectrum, ect ect. It's a novel idea.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Lara, you make the point so much better and more eloquently than I. Thanks!!


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Bad back fracture: work with a physiotherapist. If you can do the laundry, you can carry the baby. Nothing builds muscles like carrying your baby.

Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful.

OMG, did you just call suseyblue FAT and LAZY for having a physical impairment?


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## DalaiMama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*

Bad back fracture: work with a physiotherapist. If you can do the laundry, you can carry the baby. Nothing builds muscles like carrying your baby.

Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful.

I agree with the pp that this is an awful thing to say. Obviously Suseyblue is just being lazy, and if she really wanted to, she could carry her baby.







YOU ought to be ashamed of yourself for implying such a thing about someone who (IMO) is obviously a good mother who does the best she can by her child, in spite of a physical problem. This has niggled at me since I read this thread this morning, thanks HMBaby for articulating it for me.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

The OP is so over the top that I can't take it seriously. I just laughed.

Especially at the fat and lazy part. I am thin, fit, and a former athlete with no history of back problems. Even *my* back starts to have problems from the baby carrying I do. I can only imagine how it feels for others not in my position.

Next time my back starts to twitch, I'll remind myself I'm fat and lazy.







:

- - off to brush up on my rulebook - -


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## 3boobykins (Nov 21, 2001)

I just don't like labels, and don't even use the terms "AP" "attachment parenting," or "natural family living" to describe how we parent our children. If anything, I prefer the term "conscious" or "mindful" parenting. I don't like the idea (and I'm talking about me, not what I think everyone "should" do) of checking off a list, and if I can't check off one or more items, that's it, I'm not good enough. I parent the way I do because it works and makes for happy kids--I breastfeed, sleep with them, hold them lots, both in slings and in arms, and don't let them cry without responding right away. I also use strollers, when appropriate, swings and bouncy seats occaisionally, and I just bought a pack-n-play for the new upcoming baby to have a safe place to sleep at times when I need to give full attention to my other two children.

There are many wonderful, loving mamas here who can't check off every item on the list of ap rules, and they have very legitimate reasons for not being able to breastfeed, sling constantly, or sleep with their babies. Mamas who don't follow the rules to a "T" don't love their children any less. We need to support each other for doing the best we can with the circumstances we've been given.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Other people have posted comments on the idea of AP rules already, much eloquently than I could (thanks, Laralou). So I will just add this about breastfeeding.

In theory I totally agree with the breastfeeding rule. Do your best to get the baby on the breast. Or at least get some breastmilk in the baby's belly.
In practice it's not so easy. Remember how cute it is to call our breasts "restaurants". They're also tied to our body image, negative or positive. They're also tied to our sexuality. Some women cannot (and I mean cannot mentally) breastfeed because of history of abuse. IN nursing school I cared for a woman whose mind over matter was so strong that even pitocin couldn't bring on labor. She did not want to deliver vaginally, and she got her c-section eventually. She was a sexual abuse survivor who was still working through issues with her body. She didn't breastfeed either, for the same reason. If she ever has more children maybe she'll be in a different place in her healing. But she was doing the best she could mentally by her baby by not breastfeeding and getting the c-section she wanted. She knew the drill, knew the benefits and risks of either set of choices. Her previous experience lead her to make the right choice for her. In her shoes I can't say what I would have chosen. I was disheartened at how all the nurses picked up on her history and it went right over her OB's head. Clearly working through the issue of her sexual abuse history was not part of her prenatal care. Maybe it would have if she had chosen a midwife. Maybe she chose that particular OB because of her history.
I have a friend for whom breastfeeding and vaginal birth has been part of her healing process to sexual abuse.

We can all strive for ideals. "Rules" can set us up for judgement and failure. The rules of the OP make my heart ache for this woman because she would be judged an AP failure. She was a SAHM btw, with very little family support during the day. She had very low self esteem, poor self image, depression. I'm sad to think that she might be judged by well meaning fellow moms, too, where she could really use some love and support. As a survivor of abuse parenting might prove to be that much harder.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
The OP is so over the top that I can't take it seriously. I just laughed.

Especially at the fat and lazy part. -

It is true. I start to like her at that point cause I'm a fan of people who'll say anything (hence my fanhood for Courteny love)


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

RULE #5 - Cosleep

Babies need a grown up nearby. They can DIE if you keep them isolated behind bars in another room.
They can die while sleeping on a mother's chest too, as we learned about in a seminar about SIDS a lifetime ago for me: real life local SW PA situation too, and the mom was an RN, knew CPR, did CPR, CPR didn't work....

Apparently there's no safe place for a baby to sleep then?

I like Amarasmom's response too. It's about responding to the needs of every family member in loving gentle ways to the best of our ability, improving as we learn more, continuing to try when we have an off incident.

While I agree with those as ideals, I see that in RL there are many ways to achieve them.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

About using an SNS.

My baby has a cleft palate. The only way for her to eat is from the special bottles we have for her. An SNS flat out will not work, for the same reason that nursing doesn't work, and the same reason regular bottles won't work. She has no capability to produce suction. Imagine sucking liquid from a straw with a hole in it. That should give you an idea of the hell my little baby went through for 5 weeks.

I am very proud to say that I _am_ breastfeeding her. I am pumping 5 times a day for 30 minutes to get her her mama's milk. That is 2.5 hours every day that I spend hooked up to a pump. Add to that the time that it takes to feed her. Yes, I hold her close in a cradle hold each and every feeding (unless DH is holding her close to feed her).

Her cleft wasn't discovered until she was 5 weeks old. I was nursing until then. Nursing, but she wasn't getting much, if anything. For her, nursing has not been a wonderful, beautiful, bonding experience. It's been about hunger, pain, and frustration.

I have been able to get her to latch on a few times since then, but she hasn't been very interested. That's not surprising. What on earth would motivate her to go through more of that frustration?! I have hopes to get her back on the breast after surgery. Maybe having milk she can access will convince her to nurse.

I should also add that I have a 3.5 year old. How much can I put her through? She already has to wait patiently while I pump, feed and take care of the baby. Now, you're saying, I should make her wait for my attention while I try fruitlessly to get the baby to latch on and become frustrated?

No, I have to make decisions that are right for both children. I have to balance both of their needs.

Bec


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

T

Quote:

Actually, I don't know. I've never used or seen a SNS. Why wouldn't it work?
I tried one, didn't work with my DD when she was unable to nurse. At only two months old, she would spit my nipple out and suck on the tube because she knew that's where the milk was coming from. Or if she wanted comfort, she would spit the tube out and suck on my nipple instead. I had to supplement because she was physically unable to nurse or to stimulate a decent supply. I tried every sort of system imaginable, and what actually worked best for her was to use bottles and a faster flowing nipple, which goes against every single bit of advice I was ever given. I was very lucky in that I was finally able to pump enough milk for her and she eventually was able to nurse without supplements, but making breastfeeding work was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. I would never presume to judge a woman who says she tried to nurse and couldn't. It really is sometimes impossible to make it work. If I had different circumstances and a little less patience, or a little less support, or if my DD hadn't had such horrible reactions to formulas of all kinds, I would never have stuck with it and made it work for us either. Be glad you have never had to do those "triple feedings" because that is the closest thing to torture I can imagine a new mom having to go through! Just imagine, you haven't slept in months and you may very well have symptoms of ppd (or ptsd, in my case)...you put baby to your breast, but baby can't nurse so baby screams and fights you the entire time...then you give a supplement (pick your method, they all take time in preparation and in the feeding)...as soon as baby is done with the supplement, you have to pump...you might have a chance to pee before you have to nurse baby again, you might not, and if DH hasn't made you a stack of sanwiches to snack on while you attempt to nurse your baby, you surely don't have time to eat. repeat.

now, come to think of it, this reply of mine isn't that off-topic anyway, because there are always exceptions to the "rules" and every baby and every family's situation is different. AP is all about doing what's best for your baby, and your family, given your unique circumstances.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laralou*
If you feel really good about yourself, you don't have the same need to look down on others or constantly compare to prove to yourself how good you are.

I want a t-shirt that says this on it!!!


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Then of course there are a host of other reasons it wouldn't work. I think the PP said it just right when she said she had to make decisions that were healthy for ALL her children. I can tell you first hand, it's not healthy for a toddler to sit waiting hour after hour while mommy pumps for the baby. Yes, breastfeeding is ideal and a hell of alot easier than all that.

For that matter, there are also exclusions to cosleeping. I couldn't cosleep with my baby in my bed even if I wanted to. She was on an apnea monitor and while on a monitor it's not safe to cosleep. How many babies come home on a monitor of some kind? ALOT! Lots of preemie and babies with special needs do. Those parents have to do what is best for the health of their baby, not their mother supreme ego.


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## jessemoon (May 31, 2004)

Oh good grief! Love your babies! Do your best to give them what they need to grow up healthy and happy.

If other people think you are screwing up by not being AP enough, strict enough, religious enough, natural enough etc. in your parenting, smile politely and know that you are the mama!

We all make mistakes and would do some things differently. We all learn as we go along. I learn from people who I admire as parents and from those who I would never choose to emulate.

I hope that I am both humble enough to admit my failings and proud enough to celebrate my strengths as a mother. My son is the only one who I have to prove myself to. He knows that I love him. Anyone else's feelings about my parenting are secondary.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I would also like to point out that the "rules" don't work with all kids. For example, ds3 hated the sling. Wouldn't go in it. He never wanted to be held as a newborn (ask tnrsmom I tried all the time). He slept better alone. It was sad for me b/c I had always slung my kids and slept with them. I felt like a "bad" AP mom for this. How ridiculous that seems now. His personality is just so "stand offish". If you ask me, the "rules" are silly. If you feel good parenting the way you are then go for it. I don't think anyone that abuses their children can honestly say they feel good about it.


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## loomweaver (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessemoon*
Oh good grief! Love your babies! Do your best to give them what they need to grow up healthy and happy.

If other people think you are screwing up by not being AP enough, strict enough, religious enough, natural enough etc. in your parenting, smile politely and know that you are the mama!

We all make mistakes and would do some things differently. We all learn as we go along. I learn from people who I admire as parents and from those who I would never choose to emulate.

I hope that I am both humble enough to admit my failings and proud enough to celebrate my strengths as a mother. My son is the only one who I have to prove myself to. He knows that I love him. Anyone else's feelings about my parenting are secondary.

























That is so wonderfully written, In reading this entire thread, it sounds like the OP is actually resentful at HAVING to follow rules to be AP. That's why my hubby and I say we are responsive gentle and instinctive parents instead.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Here Here to the many AP mama's who have an open mind and heart.

I don't know what is wrong with the OP that she would so badly misconstrue AP to mean that a child must be held, even if they hate it. My first DD hated being held, slung whatever. She loved being in a babyseat where she could look at me. She hated being touched so much that when I BF'd her she would stop if I touched her with my hands and thus I used to put them behind my back as soon as she latched on. I would never have disrespected her so much that I would have insisted on touching her when that made her miserable.

The OP implies that its ok to make them sling when they don't like it because they will get used to it and eventually be happy. Isn't that the same exact agrument made by people who advocate CIO????????????


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## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

"Each time a parent questions whether she is truly an AP parent because they have chosen not to follow one or another of these methods, it is a heartbreaking blow to the essential self-assurance that all parents deserve."

Read more of this great essay, "Attachment parenting is a frame of mind," by Diana West, from the kellymom.com site:

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/ap-frame-of-mind.html


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Rule#1 - NO CIO
Rule#2 - Breastfeed
RULE #3 - Baby bonds with a primary caregiver
RULE #4 - Wear your baby
RULE #5 - Cosleep
...

I really try to sling my 12 year old, but his feet drag on the ground, maybe you could suggest another position?

I think you can tell how young the OPs children are by her list. I also think some of the most important AP work comes when all the things on those list are just a memory. That list reads to me like my BIL's justifications for being "Babywise" do. Rules, rules and more rules. How did we all get so insecure about our ability to parent well?

Although I must admit to having two rules myself:

1. Love yourself
2. Love your child.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

If you have good instincts, love in your heart, the ability to learn, an open mind and some compassion..
You don't need rules.
And you don't need to call other people names or to belittle them.

Rules are a poor substitute for thoughtfulness, love and compassion.
Too bad some of us are so short on these things that they have only rules to go by.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
I also think some of the most important AP work comes when all the things on those list are just a memory. .

Thsi is true. However you child slept as a baby, the much more detrimental or positive parenting comes later. My friends who were negativbely affected by bad parenting are not talking about cribs and and breass, but about shaming and disapointment and disrespect that occured much much later (ages 8-18).


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

We do have a few parenting rules in our home. They help us to focus when times are hard and to ensure that we don't make a major slip-up when under stress.

First, is that we don't hit children or physically hurt them in any way.

Second, is that we don't call children names or belittle them verbally.

Hmm, I can't think of any others. Everything else is just a question of following our hearts and treating our children as we would wish to be treated ourselves. Yet we still manage to consider ourselves fairly AP.


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## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Oh, everyone's got an excuse, don't they?

Some of them are valid. Most of them are not.

The trouble with all the invalid excuses is that everytime you give one, you've just given someone else one more excuse to add to their repetoire.

When I talk to mothers (and I'm a specialist in mother-child ESL classes) in other parts of the world, they think these excuses are hilarious.

Go to India, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, East Africa, Bolivia, Paraguay - you will see baby after baby after baby sleeping in someone's arms, nursing, and generally being happy, normal babies.

In all my travels, the only groups of people who even knew what colic was were the Westerners. UK, Australia, Canada and America - these cultures have babies that hate to be held, cry inconsolably, wean themselves spontaenously, love daycare from birth, prefer to be held in plastic contraptions, do all kinds of happily convenient things for the parents.

If they are valid excuses, they would be universal - something that HUMAN babies do.

But they're not universal. They're cultural. And culture is nothing but a set of rules.

So change the rules.

And stop making excuses.

And you must be seriously kidding if you think North Americans aren't fat and lazy. Obese and sedentary, if you like your truth sugar-coated.

Sugar's not good for you, though. Take it straight.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

You're right Kaimama. I will just agree that one must be lacking in common sense to adhere to rules that make life miserable. No one here needs excuses. Some people just need validation at any cost.


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah*
If you have good instincts, love in your heart, the ability to learn, an open mind and some compassion..
You don't need rules.
And you don't need to call other people names or to belittle them.

Rules are a poor substitute for thoughtfulness, love and compassion.
Too bad some of us are so short on these things that they have only rules to go by.

This was worth repeating. Thank you, asherah.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I have to tell you all, this thread is giving me the laugh I've been needing all day!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*

Go to India, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, East Africa, Bolivia, Paraguay - you will see baby after baby after baby sleeping in someone's arms, nursing, and generally being happy, normal babies.

Yes yes, why don't you go to some of these countries and find all these happy babies. You'll find mothering a pleanty to fit your preconceptions, but you'll find LOTS of other kinds of mothering. All those happy baby girls deserted on church doorsteps in China, all those low caste child wives abused in India, all those devoted single moms in Thailand who have to work the streets cause there are no jobs availble to them - believe they'd put thier babies in a decent daycare if they could - instead they give their neighbor a dollar and if the baby is neglected and dies, nobody but mama cares and no one is arrested.

The one thing that drives me CRAZY on this site is the idealization of non-western "primative" cultures. They are cultures like any other, no more primitive or "natural" than our own, and they have much admirable and much unadmirable to them, as does western culture.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Something about this thread makes me want to say really sarcastic things.... I've edited by choice, every post!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

You know, you gotta hand it to Juniper, it's like 40 to 1, but she ain't backing down.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Hand what to her?


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

My question isn't about what is or isn't AP, but why are you the one who gets to make the rules for everyone, Juniper? What if someone makes a new set of rules and there is something on it that you don't agree with?


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Gee, if I got to make up my list of AP "rules" it would be super-long, and so few people would qualify (including myself)...and then all you ladies would explain yourselves and of course just about everyone (here) qualifies in the end, even though the 'criteria' that I would use it identify an AP parent might not fit...

Anyway...

I think that it is fine and dandy to list a bunch of *ideals*. It is when we stop thinking of them ideals and start thinking of them as rules or benchmarks-of-APness that we get in trouble. So yes, AP is about ideals - it is about the ideal of doing what is most common-sense-beneficial and respectful of your child. It is about *ideally* doing those things that the OP listed and more. But certainly we shouldn't say that as a RULE, to be AP a mama must do all of the ideal things. I, for example, did not sling my babies beyond the first couple of weeks. DS was 30 lbs at 2 months. I am 5'2" with a genetically influenced joint problem that makes carrying extra weight not only difficult, but permanently damaging to my joints (and yes, this means that with each pregnancy, my joints get worse and it is irreversible). I happily sit with my babies, lie with my babies, spend an extremely large percentage of my time in physical contact with my babies, don't own baby walkers and bouncy-things and swings, and yet you are saying that the 15 minutes they spend in the stroller on the way to and from the library disqualifies me from being an AP mother. That is just nonsensical.

All I expect of an AP mama is an all-out attempt at the ideals, a realization of when the ideal is not respectful of her child, and a willingness to admit that (say in my case), I know that the ideal is to baby-wear until the child is beyond needing carrying, and realize that I have fallen short of this AP ideal (and I can live with that, but will not belittle others for continuing to assert that it is ideal, so long as they don't belittle me personally for failing).


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

'Scuse me while I update my ignore list.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Gosh the OP's finger wagging is making me dizzy.









May you never break a single one of your rules (and they are yours to keep), no matter how many pits are in your bowl.








:

Okay, I can laugh now, too. I eschew rules! I even laugh at parking tickets. I think we all strive to rear loved and loving children, and do it by any means necessary. Personally my "fat and lazy" American self is too busy being a parent, wife, and friend to get bogged down with rules (and it's rarely about me). A creed? Ideals? Sure. I assume that was the OP's intention, and she didn't mean to try to attract flies with vinegar.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
In all my travels, the only groups of people who even knew what colic was were the Westerners. UK, Australia, Canada and America - these cultures have babies that hate to be held, cry inconsolably, wean themselves spontaenously, love daycare from birth, prefer to be held in plastic contraptions, do all kinds of happily convenient things for the parents.

Well, I was sorta agreeing with you, especially about using an SNS instead of a bottle. But all of my respect just went down the toilet when you said this. Um, my son had colic...it was a 3 month nightmare. It wasn't because he stayed in plastic contraptions...it wasn't because we left him alone, it wasn't because we put him in daycare. HE HAD COLIC...he was in severe pain. He was held 24 hours a day...we slept sitting up with him in our lap. We didn't sleep at all some nights so that we can walk him around all day. We gritted our teeth at 5 PM because we knew that from 6 PM until 2 AM, it would be constant uncontrollable screaming. We never once put him down. We walked him around inside, outside, walked him to music, danced with him, turned the water on for him to listen to, sang to him, bounced him, nursed him...nothing helped. He would cry while clenched on to my shirt...he KNEW we would hold him, but he still needed to cry. Not because he wanted to be put down or because we were doing something wrong. He was just colickly and in pain. I can guarantee you that colicky babies don't sit in plastic contraptions or are ignored....a colicky baby can still be colicky when they're held. Please try to use a LITTLE sensitivity instead of putting out blanket insults...it really lowers any merit your original posts had.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I'm glad bfing worked for you. You deserve a medal. Forgive my sarcasm, I'm sure you did work hard to get to where you are and I applaud you.

However I don't believe it should be about rules. Are you saying I'm not AP because I don't bf? That I can't bond with my baby while holding her during her tube feedings? I'm so glad you don't have to do what I do.

Family bed is a nice idea, we do family bed sometimes. But my baby has to sleep elevated sometimes on her bad reflux days. On the good days we sleep with her all hooked up to her feeding pump and we try not to get tangled in the tubing. I do agree that family bed is very nice though.

Babywearing, well I broke my back a few years ago and I have a limit to how much I can carry and for how long. So I'm not AP because I set my baby down or use a stroller a lot of the time when out?

I used to be so judgemental too. I sometimes feel that I deserved to experience what I have so that my heart can learn to accept all mamas and not judge others as harshly as I did in the past. When I was pg I used to shake my head and feel sorry for babies that were bottlefed, until I was unable to nurse my first. Now I wonder what bfing mamas think when they see my second baby being tube-fed?

Darshani

P.S. I've been to India 3 times in the last 5 years and let me tell you, the only place where I see that idealist picture you painted is in the National Geographic.

My dh was born and raised in India and my MIL couldn't nurse either. She tried but has hormone problems and her milk dried up with both kids. Formula was hard to come by and she sent for a cow to give her babies fresh milk. My MIL was in an arranged marriage against her will at the age of 15, she wanted to be a doctor but it was not meant to be.

My SIL has a friend who has elected to have csections with her kids so she doesn't have to be bothered by birth. It's very common among the wealthy to do that. She did not bf at all, and had a nanny to take care of the babies. OTOH we met a young man in a village whose first wife and baby died in childbirth because they could not afford for her to go to the hospital and the midwife did not have the proper training or equipment to handle the emergency (baby got stuck).

I remember very vividly a little toddler on the street with cars whizzing past, next to his mother who was begging. He was wearing a filthy white shirt, and nothing on his bottom at all, no shoes despite the filth and broken glass all around. And in his hand was a baby bottle with some water in it! I'm sure that whatever his mother's situation was, she didn't choose that for her son, to have water in a dirty bottle instead of milk.

Please, please don't paint idealist pictures, or judge anyone. I think most mamas do the best they can.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I had almost forgotten why I don't like to hang out here at MDC anymore. Thank you for reminding me.

I find it very interesting that not only do you think there should be rules and a list, but YOU have personally authored that list. That's quite convenient.

If you think the world is so black and white as to fit into your myopic view of it, then I am very saddened indeed. Human progress is built upon the ability to be visionary, and in order to be visionary, we must look above our own circumstances and attempt to understand all lives and what truly drives people. Perhaps that is how you should spend your time, instead of judging people you don't know and lack the ability to understand.

Your knowledge of breastfeeding (and giving bottles to babies) is quite shockingly deficient as well.

SMB,
Kay


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## jasperab (Apr 17, 2004)

Wow







I had a whole lot to say, but to sum it up, all I can say is that in terms of the op, ignorant people say ignorant things.( and I use the word ignorant in the true meaning if the word-lack of knowledge) I just don't see the point of hurting, demeaning, and insulting people, especially other mamas.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I think it's important to remember that everyone has had different experiences and every child is different. When I read Mothering I want to be all the things in it. Then I realize my kids aren't the kids in Mothering. They're my kids. If I try to mold them into a set of ideals they will only resent me. So I follow their lead. If a baby doesn't like being in a sling it certainly doesn't mean the mom is fat and lazy. It means the baby doesn't like being in a sling. If someone tries every trick to breastfeed and it doesn't work out then they do what's best for them and their baby. Should they be kicked out of the AP club for that? Absolutely not. I always thought Mothering was about acceptance of all ideas. You don't have to practice them but accepting them and respecting them is so important. I've had my share of "being judgemental" threads in the past. It only hurts others and eventually hurts me.


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## wendygrace (Oct 16, 2003)

May you never have a sickly child. May you never have to endure months of sitting by your child's bedside, trying to be a good parent when all you can do is look at the child. May you never have to make some tough decisions in life that require you to think outside the "box" of your rules.

From what you are saying, since I did not...

Rule#1 - NO CIO
Rule#2 - Breastfeed
RULE #3 - Baby bonds with a primary caregiver
RULE #4 - Wear your baby
RULE #5 - Cosleep

I was not a good parent. Yet, I couldn't breastfeed as my son was on intravenous nutrition for 5 months and I quit pumping when my doctor's said he would die one night. Thankfully he lived but I just couldn't pump anymore. He did get my four months of pumping every two hours for 1/2 hour...which lasted 6 weeks. I couldn't wear my baby...he was hooked up to a ventilator for 5 months, on oxygen tubes for another 7 months and so many other wires that your head would spin. Oh yes, and his belly sticks out as if he were 10 months pregnant with twins making carrying him very difficult. Did I mention he was 30 lbs at 6 months due to all the swelling? And cosleep...of course not...he was in a hospital crib!

But I suppose all the hours I spent at his bedside, singing and talking and reading and learning about medical procedures and watching my son get hurt, sometimes hourly, as they had to run another test to make sure he was getting enough oxygen isn't good enough.

There are no excuses you say.

May you never have to walk in my shoes.


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## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

For my family, I'm committed to the ideals that the OP has mentioned, and for the most part, they have worked.

But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.

Secure children grow into secure adults who don't feel the need to judge others in order to feel better about themselves. I hope my children will feel good enough about themselves that they will not put down others for fun, and I hope that none of my actions or words will teach them to be cruel.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.

Secure children grow into secure adults who don't feel the need to judge others in order to feel better about themselves. I hope my children will feel good enough about themselves that they will not put down others for fun, and I hope that none of my actions or words will teach them to be cruel.

Well hot damn mama, didn't you just sum that up perfectly?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
For my family, I'm committed to the ideals that the OP has mentioned, and for the most part, they have worked.

But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.

Secure children grow into secure adults who don't feel the need to judge others in order to feel better about themselves. I hope my children will feel good enough about themselves that they will not put down others for fun, and I hope that none of my actions or words will teach them to be cruel.

What she said.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

I love my children.
I've always responded to their needs.
I respect my children.
We are attached.

End of story.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
For my family, I'm committed to the ideals that the OP has mentioned, and for the most part, they have worked.

But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.

Secure children grow into secure adults who don't feel the need to judge others in order to feel better about themselves. I hope my children will feel good enough about themselves that they will not put down others for fun, and I hope that none of my actions or words will teach them to be cruel.


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## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Yes yes, why don't you go to some of these countries and find all these happy babies. You'll find mothering a pleanty to fit your preconceptions, but you'll find LOTS of other kinds of mothering. All those happy baby girls deserted on church doorsteps in China, all those low caste child wives abused in India, all those devoted single moms in Thailand who have to work the streets cause there are no jobs availble to them - believe they'd put thier babies in a decent daycare if they could - instead they give their neighbor a dollar and if the baby is neglected and dies, nobody but mama cares and no one is arrested.


Comments like this are just so sickeningly racist and xenophobic.

Oh yes, pity the poor third world peasant woman - nothing but single mothers and prostitutes and street vendors - do you know how insulted and furious these so-called "third world" women are at being represented as nothing but impoverished whores who can't take care of their own children?

Most people are leading simple happy lives, taking care of their children (following the AP rules without even knowing they exist, becuase that's how normal humans take care of babies), and are not especially happy at their portrayal in western media.

This thread is a perfect example of why MDC has a reputation in the real world as a coven of _________ (you fill in the blank). All the women in my LLL group know about this site, but I'm the only one who posts, because they know that as soon as they say something the slightest bit controversial, all the honey-mouthed dragons are going to unsheathe their claws.

But I'll keep posting, because I know for a fact there are a ton of people who feel the same way I do, and who like to see their own thoughts supported in a forum like this. They would just never post here, thanks to the inspiring level of maturity and hypocrisy demonstrated.

And you know, I have suggestion. Rather than update your ignore list (What grade are you in, again?), how about you just pass by any threads that I have posted. Save yourself the trouble of keeping score.


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## abigailvr (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
And you know, I have suggestion. Rather than update your ignore list (What grade are you in, again?), how about you just pass by any threads that I have posted. Save yourself the trouble of keeping score.

FYI, this is what an ignore list does. She tells the boards which posters she doesn't want to read and so when she goes to a thread she just won't see that person's post.


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## Boadicea (Mar 28, 2004)

Are you getting dizzy up there on your high horse?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Oh yes, pity the poor third world peasant woman - *nothing but single mothers and prostitutes and street vendors*

Did you actually read the post to which you were responding? Maybe you just accidentally skipped over this part:

"Yes yes, why don't you go to some of these countries and find all these happy babies. *You'll find mothering a pleanty to fit your preconceptions, but you'll find LOTS of other kinds of mothering.*"

Your brain seems fixed in absolutes. The world is not black and white, my friend. Open your eyes. Maybe you'll lose the blinders and realize that things aren't always as they seem at first glance.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Is Juniperjoy going to kick me out of the AP clubhouse?? *bites nails*

Wow, one more person who doesn't approve of my parenting. What a shock. Fortunately I have had a lot of practice in not caring what other people think about my choices.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

You know....Dr. Sears said these SAME things...only he was a lot more gentle at saying things. And even HE, who coined the term 'attachment parenting', understood that everyone has different circumstances. There is a right way and a wrong way to educate...telling people that it's all or nothing is going to do nothing but make people loose trust in you and ignore you. AP isn't "all or nothing"...some women have to work and so their babies take bottles. Some can't use carriers. Some can't co-sleep. There are situations that warrant this. I agree that there are some ideals...but that's what they are. Dr. Sears never said that the 5 b's were RULES...he said they were IDEALS. It's great to aspire to those ideals, but sometimes they are not possible.

To me, it's better to show your kids how to love others by being a good example. Preaching the rules and judging people and telling them they don't belong in your exclusive "AP" club is not showing love and respect. Be an example of GENTLE teaching. You wouldn't dare speak to your children the way you are speaking to some of these ladies.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Oh, everyone's got an excuse, don't they?

Some of them are valid. Most of them are not.

The trouble with all the invalid excuses is that everytime you give one, you've just given someone else one more excuse to add to their repetoire.

When I talk to mothers (and I'm a specialist in mother-child ESL classes) in other parts of the world, they think these excuses are hilarious.

Go to India, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, East Africa, Bolivia, Paraguay - you will see baby after baby after baby sleeping in someone's arms, nursing, and generally being happy, normal babies.

In all my travels, the only groups of people who even knew what colic was were the Westerners. UK, Australia, Canada and America - these cultures have babies that hate to be held, cry inconsolably, wean themselves spontaenously, love daycare from birth, prefer to be held in plastic contraptions, do all kinds of happily convenient things for the parents.

If they are valid excuses, they would be universal - something that HUMAN babies do.

But they're not universal. They're cultural. And culture is nothing but a set of rules.

So change the rules.

And stop making excuses.

And you must be seriously kidding if you think North Americans aren't fat and lazy. Obese and sedentary, if you like your truth sugar-coated.

Sugar's not good for you, though. Take it straight.

I suggest you read Mothernature a book that inculdes a discussion of what REALLY happens in all those lovely other cultures when there is a child that doesn't quite fit in with the culture of holding and co-sleeping. Let's just say its NOT pretty. And CHINA are you even kidding? They are abandoning or KILLING their little baby girls. YEAH they are a wonderful example.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
I suggest you read Mothernature a book that inculdes a discussion of what REALLY happens in all those lovely other cultures when there is a child that doesn't quite fit in with the culture of holding and co-sleeping. Let's just say its NOT pretty. And CHINA are you even kidding? They are abandoning or KILLING their little baby girls. YEAH they are a wonderful example.

LOL...I was wondering about the China example too....nothing gentle about that...


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

This thread is a perfect example of why MDC has a reputation in the real world as a coven of _________ (you fill in the blank). All the women in my LLL group know about this site, but I'm the only one who posts, because they know that as soon as they say something the slightest bit controversial, all the honey-mouthed dragons are going to unsheathe their claws.

But I'll keep posting, because I know for a fact there are a ton of people who feel the same way I do, and who like to see their own thoughts supported in a forum like this. They would just never post here, thanks to the inspiring level of maturity and hypocrisy demonstrated.
Pot, meet Kettle.

Um, what was the point of this thread anyway? "Why *shouldn't* AP be about rules"? I think you have the answer.
I always believed that AP style recognizes the varieties of ways of doing things right for your children and family, recognizes the varieties of families, acknowledges that parents, and not outside entities (like nosey neighbors or "authorities") are the parenting experts. And so by nature, Attachment parenting style is about making the right choices for your family and your children, taking into consideration the personalities, experiences, needs, etc. of each member of the family. It's a wholisitic way of family living. You can't slap absolute rules on a wholisitc system.

Quote:

Nobody ever feels guilty about doing the right thing. If you feel guilty about how you're taking care of your baby, that's a sure sign you're doing something wrong. Listen to your own heart. It tells you when you're making a mistake
--the OP's sig line

Excellent advice, OP. Advice that can't be squeezed into a box of rules.

People who try to put other people down are generally working through personal issues, so this is not meant to be a flame or an attack, Joy. I'm just hearing lots of hurt in your posts. If you're hurting because of something that we don't know about, leave it at that. We don't know about it. Focus your anger and hurt on the cause, not on those of us who come here for support and encouragement because we don't always feel like the parenting experts in our families, whose choices are only validated by the positive results we see in our families (and sometimes not even then), and even when we have to let go of our ideals of perfect parenting in order to be attached parents. So stop lashing out, Joy, we all have a lot in common, stand by your ideals, and may you not be too traumatized if *you* have to let go of them.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Juniper you aren't reading these posts. You aren't even reading the posts you choose to quote.

Your version of "third world" mothering is a western fantasy of "natural" and is as xenophobic and racist as other more negative but equally simplistic depictictions; the countries you mention are as complcated and as founded on cultural norms as the west.

I was about to write that this thread is a little like kicking a baby (forgive the figure of speech), but you last post makes me think it is more like kicking the troll baby.

This board annoys me sometimes too because it is too uptight about things (swearing, hoochie clothes etc) and a little too eager to protect kids from the world we live in, but it is a "good" place, and by that I mean a place where mamas really try to help other mamas. We discuss and disagree and sometimes get a little snotty, but I've never been afraid to post my opinion. That every poster in this thread disagrees with you (after your third or so post) might tell you that you need to reconsider your pov. I did so as I read the swearing thread and saw my pov outnumbered so (I changed my take on it slightly). Reconsideration is not a bad thing.


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## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

I guess I'm practicing attachment parenting all wrong then, 'cause I just thought it was about taking cues from my baby and parenting to match those cues. So, when she couldn't latch and would get so frustrated at even trying that she'd just cry herself into a little baby ball of misery, I sorta just took that as a cue that nursing might not be the best option for us. I kinda decided I liked having a happy, lovingly bottle-fed baby rather than a constantly miserable child who hated to be close to her Mom for fear she'd have to start nursing.

What a crappy mom I must be.







I'm sure if you saw my healthy, joyful little girl, you'd probably agree that I'm doing it ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL wrong.

Oh, and maybe here's a cue you're missing, since you seem to be all about knowing what AP is...if you post a thread and virtually EVERYONE disagrees with what you're saying, maybe you're the one who's wrong, not everyone else.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)




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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.
Boy, I didn't know what to expect when I finally opened up this thread, but wow,







: I think you nailed it.









And, you know, wow. Amazing we keep having these threads, discussions, rehashings, etc. Why do people feel the need to judge and measure.

And,

Quote:

And you must be seriously kidding if you think North Americans aren't fat and lazy. Obese and sedentary, if you like your truth sugar-coated.
Um...I'm not. Are you? Maybe if you tried to fit some exercise into your life, you may feel better. Or, just learn to accept yourself as you are. Might take some of the stress out.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
all the honey-mouthed dragons are going to unsheathe their claws.

That is actually a really great image.

Imagine a circle of dragons, thier mouths dripping with honey, slowely taking the leather sheathes off thier claws one at a time.

We definately need a honey mouthed dragon emoticon or better yet an emoticon for epople who refuse to read what others actually post


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Rule#1 - NO CIO
Rule#2 - Breastfeed
RULE #3 - Baby bonds with a primary caregiver
RULE #4 - Wear your baby
RULE #5 - Cosleep

[/QUOTE]

I don't think any of those rules are even relevant any more in my family. I mean we're not going to be bf'ing or wearing a 9 year old and I couldn't get my DD to co-sleep even when I begged her post surgery. And THANK GOD she's bonded with many, many wonderful people.

So what are your rules after the first five years??? Believe me once you got big kids you got a lot more complex life than this.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Ah, this thread gets better and better.

Mamas, don't take what JJ says personally. She obviously has a lot of pent up anger to deal with, and I reckon it really has nothing to do with how other people parent.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Well said









I think I'm cynical b/c I've started reading inflammatory posts w/a grain of salt.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

A valedictorian gives a speech at her graduation...here's what she says...."I'd like to thank my mother for the way she raised me...it was truly attachment parenting..she respected me as a person from the time I was a baby...responded to my needs...hugged and kissed me...listened when I talked..and played with me...oh wait..she didn't use a co-sleeper...nevermind...someone else can take my place..I am traumatized."


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

ya know.

Really.

The OP, has her opinion. She has a right to it.

Let's move on people.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Gotta wonder why I love this thread so much (images of honey mouthed dragons aside).

I wonder of Juniper has become our whipping boy. We make her the fall guy for all the guilt we feel for judging mamas, for the lists of "rules" we cary in our own head, for our self-rightousness and smug complacency. We know it is wrong, but it is so hard not to do it; so instead of owning up to it and self-flogging admidst the required mea cupas, we make her do it for us. We abject our sins onto her, suffer her a thousand tounge lashings, and thus pretend that her vocal sins are not our silent ones. Is there a difference between thinking it and knowing you are wrong to think it and saying it and thinking you are right to say it?

For this goat-girl Juniper needs a medal, or at leaat a big scarlet J.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JuniperJoy*
Comments like this are just so sickeningly racist and xenophobic.
...

Yes, _your_ comments were racist and xenophobic. I'm glad to see you are coming to terms with that, it takes a big person to admit they were wrong.

Casting entire cultures of women as nothing more than happy, AP-rule following mothers is patentely ridiculous, not to mention being racist. Women all around the world lead lives just as complex as ours. Claiming anything else is absurd.

Now I hope you'll tackle your misogyny.

Good luck.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
...Is there a difference between thinking it and knowing you are wrong to think it and
saying it and thinking you are right to say it?...

There's a world of difference between thinking a judgemental thought about another mother, realizing it is wrong and trying to change your thinking vs. thinking a judgemental thought and defending it to the death.


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## JuniperJoy (Jul 8, 2004)

I judge you so you judge me back for judging you so I judge you back for judging me for judging you so you judge me back again for judging you for judging me ....

Who knows how to say hypocrite?

And isn't it just too funny that y'all can jump over me for being sob - harsh and mean - sob - gosh you would never say anything like that to a child - (does that mean you're a child?) while you post your own bile and venom?

Who is that has anger issues?

Gee, not the oh so sweet and supportive mothering dot commers. Not you, no way.

Seriously, do you have any idea how many women you alienate with your nasty ways? Think about it.

You can't alienate me, because I'm already an alien.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

JJ, I just wanted to remind you that I am a mother. I come to MDC because I want to meet other parents (I live overseas) and because sometimes I need some advice about my child. I respect the posters here and I contribute as thoughtfully as I can when I post. It makes me angry that I took time to engage in your post and you are not reading what I have to say and because it seems obvious that you want to argue about lots of other issues. I just wish you would show that you respect me (until I prove otherwise) when I post.

And, just so you know, this is from a mother with no excuses about your short list and much, much more. I've also travel quite a bit ~ I'm trying to figure out what's important to you and what you're about. It sounds like you're doing really interesting things with your life and I think you would offer a unique perspective to MDC. So, what's up? What's going on in your life? Is there something that you want to discuss - get out - work through? I'm not being sarcastic. I just had this experience a while ago where all kinds of things were coming up for me in my posts and it was because I had some "issues" to work out. It happened for me that some posters at MDC helped me by calling me out on my "stuff".

Now, got to run - I have some posts on MDC that actually seemed productive and I want to give my time to those.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Ahhh JUNIPER, I just read your past posts. You did say something controversal once (and I backed you up BTW; safty is another thing I think this board is a little uptight about). Are you still upset about that? The claws did come out that time, but several mamas supported you, especially toward the end of the thread when people start talking about freedoms and laws.

You've had such insightful posts on here (the one about you MIL and consistancy is one of the smartest things I've read on mothering - incredibly tolerant and gentle, like nothing you've posted in this thread). I'd hate for your posts from hereafter to be so willfully combatative.

Look threads get otta hand sometimes. I've a left baord (mamatron) because I got my feeling hurt in a thread, and that was just silly cause nobody would have remembered except me. And 9 times out of 10 we can't associate usernnames with past posts anyway (they all met together - mama2bean, londonmama, cuddlylovinmama . . .), so not only would no one have remembered the thread, no one would have remembered taht it was me being sulky in the thread.

I promise you if you lay down the weapon and walk away from this poisonous thread and from your own embittered conceptions about honey mouthed dragons on this board, mothering can be a happy home for you again.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Did I miss a thread about US safety? Man - I always miss the good stuff, which I'm actually interested in! If there was some thread about the overblown safety concerns of "mainstream" US parents, I'd have been right there with you! But, I was busy this month actually meeting some of these honey mouthed dragons IRL!

Good call, mamawanabe! Could we find some common ground?

Personally, I'd love to discuss how similar some European, North American and Australian values are - seems to me that SO many people seem to idealize some of these places and view them as so far superior to another. In fact, my experience is that they are really very similar.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oh, BTW, where are you two ~ up at this hour?


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Oh, BTW, where are you two ~ up at this hour?


insomnia brought on by not writing my dissertation cause I'm posting too many snotty posts in this thread







:

I am about to take a sleeping pill.

There is too much idealization in mothering period. It is part of what keeps women down (cause we are too guilty about what bad mamas we are to find the emotional energy to fight for political and social and economic access.)

Where is our feminist marching emoticon??

Can you tell it is 3 am here


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Damn. I lost my post.

Anyway, we get this crap from our pediatricians, our mother-in-laws, and our nosy neighbors. Everyone has their own set of RULES that we are all breaking in one way or another. It is just ridiculous, and I honestly don't see the point of posting your own set of rules that everyone should follow in order to be "AP" and if they don't, then they are just making "excuses" because your way is the one true way. I've read things you have posted in other threads that go against the very things you are preaching here. I seriously wonder if you are just posting this to get a rise and if you don't even really believe it.

Have you ever given your children bottles? Even with EBM that goes against the "rules" of many women here. Why did you give them? Don't answer that. They are just meaningless excuses. I can guarantee you that you have engaged in practices with your children that many women here would say that there is no excuse for.

I admire any parent who does any of those things to any degree. The society we live in is not very supportive of parents who choose to follow their instincts and actually listen to what their children are telling them before they even learn to talk. Now we have you, and I don't doubt that you are the only one who feels this way, refusing to support any woman who does anything less than what you consider the ONLY way to raise children. C'mon. Babies left in cribs behind bars DIE? That is what they say to scare us out of co-sleeping, that we will suffocate our children.

I guess I don't understand your point. Is it just to assert your superiority over other mothers here?

And pugmadmama is right. Your romaticising of "primitive" cultures is racist and offensive.

Unless you can stand here and tell us all that you are the perfect parent and you have everything figured out, well, what the hell are you doing? What is your point?


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

OK, I had a big response to Juniper all written out in my head. It was sarcastic and outraged.

But after reading some more posts, particularly Darshani's, I've changed my mind.

You see, I know my story is all over MDC. It is my sanctuary and support. I've leaned on it heavily in the last 8 months. I feel like I have friends here.

I also know the struggles that other women have gone through here. They've been brave enough to share their lives with us. It has given me strength and hope.

There are some brilliant mamas here, creative, compassionate, funny, and human.

The only thing this thread is accomplishing is to hurt, tear down, belittle, and judge. I'm done.







to all the wonderful mamas hurt by this nasty thread. You do not need to justify your actions here.

Bec


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Sorry folks. Disagreement is one thing but personal attacks and general community-directed negativity and insult is crossing way over the line.

While we enjoy and benefit from friendly debate it is clear that the OP has no friendly intentions nor good will toward this community so there is no point in continuing this discussion here. Bashing of our community by others, whether they be LLL members or other offline or online communities outside this forum, is beyond our control but we certainly need not accommodate it here.

Thread closed. Go sheathe your claws and replenish the honeypot mamas.


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