# Low Thyroid Symptoms but "Normal" Blood Tests



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

This is going to be another monster thread, so get ready.









I've been researching thyroid issues for the last several months. I've been completely blown away by the many conditions that have been historically shown to be treated with natural thyroid hormone and thus seem to have their root cause in thyroid malfunction:

IBS, allergies and intolerances,
fibromyalgia and muscle abnormalities,
mitochondrial disorders,
chronic fatigue syndrome,
failure to thrive,
bone growth problems and teeth problems including cavities,
premature or delayed puberty,
human growth hormone deficiency,
chronic respiratory illness,
chronic skin disorders such as eczema, psoriasis et al,
hair loss and premature grey hair,
chemical and drug sensitivity... and many more.
How could this be?

Quote:

There isn't a cell between your hair and your toenails, that doesn't need thyroid, 24 hours a day. For proper oxidation of the fuel, and removal of the garbage. - Broda Barnes, MD
In traditional thyroid research starting early last century, doctors would remove the thyroid gland from animals and observe exactly what happened to them. They would then inject thyroid gland extract back into the animals and observe improvement of symptoms.

Quote:

... the baby rabbit, three weeks of age, was thyroidectomised... practically everything that you see in the human hypothyroid, can be demonstrated with the exception of the mental changes. For some reason or other, rabbits do not have, that many mental breakdowns. So, it was pretty well ingrained in me, what you might expect as a result of thyroid deficiency.
There is also a long history of clinically diagnosing and treating patients with a myriad of conditions who reliably and predictably improve with the addition of natural dessicated thyroid. *These doctors actually looked at and examined the patient for signs and symptoms*, before the advent of blood testing and use of synthetic thyroid hormone (Synthroid etc).

Doctors today rely on blood values and don't usually examine the patients for physical symptoms and a family history of hypoT such as:


> - "delayed return phase" of the ankle jerk reflex, keratosis pilaris, thinning hair, dry skin, thickened tongue, yellowed skin, et al


http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsfor...rthyroid_2.htm

- mucin accumulation on the upper arm called myxedema http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/thyroid.php which is known to ONLY be caused by low thyroid function.

- an "ironic" hypothyroid symptom list http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

- comprehensive checklist for thyroid risk http://thyroid.about.com/cs/basics_s...ochecklist.htm
It's become that doctors simply look at the little numbers on lab tests and not the person! Then if there is an abnormality in lab values, synthetic thyroid hormone is usually prescribed and again followed by lab tests. If your tests are in "normal" range you are pronounced cured regardless of your physical signs. Synthetic thyroid hormones do change blood lab values, but again, the key might be how your body cells are actually using the hormone. There are lots of risks giving isolated T4 or T3 compounds and many studies actually do not how a high rate of symptom resolution!
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

*Dr. Broda Barnes* was the pioneer in the field of thyroid research. His over 50 year career using natural desiccated thyroid hormone (such as Armour) is a wealth of knowledge. He treated scores of patients and published a book on his case notes.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069...SIN=069001029X

Barnes designed the BBT test, meticulously researching its reliability for thyroid function, and it was published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

Today, there are two doctors who have written books which build on Dr. Barnes' legacy:

*Dr. Stephen Langer, "Solved: The Riddle of Illness"*
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007...SIN=0071470573

*Dr. Mark Starr, "Hypothyroidism: Type 2"*
* My current favorite book.*
Here is a great article reviewing Starr's book which describes the whole premise behind Hypothyroidism Type 2 aka "Thyroid Resistance":
http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12

Quote:

•With Type 1 Hypothyroidism, the thyroid does not produce sufficient amounts of hormone to maintain "normal" blood levels of hormones [this is the type that is tested with lab blood values].

•With Type 2 Hypothyroidism, the thyroid gland produces "normal" amounts of hormone, but the cells are unable to utilize the hormone properly. Some experts call this thyroid hormone resistance (which may be regarded as similar to insulin resistance).

&#8230; lab tests fail to detect Type 2 hypothyroidism, because despite adequate bloodstream hormone levels, the cells are unable to accept and utilize that hormone
Most all doctors believe today the TSH is the only blood test to run to check thyroid function. Mine did and told me it wasn't my thyroid to blame since my numbers were in the normal range. However, I have upteen symptoms, including the most basic test of your metabolism: a low basal body temperature (normal BBT is 97.8 to 98.2) and cold intolerance.

Again, I have learned from reading about the traditional treatment of hypothyroidism is that *blood tests don't tell the whole story about how our cells are actually using thyroid hormone, only symptoms do, and especially the BBT done correctly.* More on what can go wrong with cellular function later.

I asked several months ago who among us on the allergy chat thread had hypothyroid symptoms ... ALL of us did!









So we've been discussing in great detail in September's chat thread and thought it might be best to pull out that conversation into a separate thread. I'll be doing my best to update this thread with our previous posts.

Feel free to subscribe using the "Thread Tools" link on the upper right and join in on the discussion or ask questions!

This is very dear to me because it appears from traditional research that a hypothyroid mother is very likely to produce a hypothyroid child (due to inheriting the mitochondrial DNA that only comes from the mother, more later on that). Dr. Barnes and Dr. Starr always looked at the mother in evaluating the child. It is also said that each successive generation has more pronounced malfunction. My DS has many hypoT symptoms.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

From http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6#post15822176

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
My sister and I were playing with skin - the mucin arm pinch stuff. All of her skin is way looser than mine. I'm realizing that my extra weight seems to be lactation related - never had it pre-dd and went back to my normal body type when pg with ds. I'm sure there's a clue there, but I have no clue what it is. My thyroid doesn't like making milk?

Eta: I came across a blurb today mentioning that folate protects against birth defects caused by bpa in plastics. Interesting, no?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Hey whoMe,

The mucin logged arm skin is different than fat, much firmer. I wonder if your issue is that of T3 conversion and there is something impairing it when you are lactating?

Clobo and I were talked about iron, are you taking iron and what form?
Is it working? It could be a factor in hair loss if you are still noticing.

I was reading about iron bis-glycinate. I want to try to get my ferritin up, apparently liver and red meat is doing squat and that can also effect thyroid function a great deal. Broda Barnes the thyroid guru says ferritin should be 100 in those with thyroid disorders. Dr. Mark Starr recs ferretin 130 in menstruating women!










Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Very interesting [re: folate and BPA]. Must get rid of it through better methylation?

Is there a mitochondria thread around? I feel like I need to (try) to understand that better.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I haven't seen any online just in his book. Supposedly even if you are chubby the skin will separate from the underlying tissue if you don't have mucin accumulating. If you do, it will be impossible to separate on your upper arm. Also outer thigh. It will feel different than another chubby area on your body.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Yeah, the mucin fits much better than fat for me. Iron's definitely low, though I don't think I'm actually anemic anymore







. Have you thought about lactoferrin for better iron transport, like yasko suggests?

I'll see if I can get pictures/video of everyone's arm skin this afternoon.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Another rec for lactoferrin - it helps transport iron where it's needed. Just taking iron supps (if you aren't transporting iron well) can cause gut bacteria virulence to increase (iron feeds them).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
And lately I've been wondering if my skipping my Iodoral (for months now) is having an impact. My hair seems to be falling out at an increased rate lately. I am hoping that right now I'm fighting off something, and the sudden fatigue and feeling blah is an illness and not a downtick in my thyroid function.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Your AM temps should tell you Tanya


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
But they've never been normal, not since 5 years ago. My daytime temps are almost normal, which I've counted as a huge improvement, since for a couple years there, I didn't get above 98.0 unless I was really sick. But my morning temps, while noticeably better than 5 years ago, are still not what's called normal--and I've had times with little fatigue and that seemed very adrenal.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
I haven't temped in so long. Now you've inspired me to try.

When I was temping, my morning temps were around 95.7, and my daytime ones were around 96.8. But my thyroid test numbers looked beautiful. <shrug> I've never had any other symptoms that would suggest being hypothyroid.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 







Those are the types of numbers I got at my worst, I felt horrible. (eta: obviously I'm glad you don't!) What thyroid tests were run? JaneS has had recent posts on some reasons even stuff like free T3 and free T4 would look normal (I think it was those, TSH is very erratic, some people see huge changes there before symptoms and some take ages to see any movement in TSH even with a mountain of symptoms).

Interesting. I thought it was interesting, too, when I saw an acupuncturist for a while in the spring that she asked about my thyroid, thought it was a bit low, and I think at the time it was in the probably-somewhat-low-but-I-felt-asymptomatic place it's been for a couple years now. She asked because of my pulse, I think, maybe combined with my tongue, but not because of specific symptoms I described, at least that was my impression at the time.

I'm wondering what it would take to get back to 100%... while in theory I think it's possible, at a more practical level I wonder if it's just not going to happen. I'd like to win the lottery. Guess I should play if I really want to incorporate that into the plan.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I would be extremely surprised if you had no other sx given those very low temps. The sx are pretty wide ranging:
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

Recently I've found out that the alternative allergy guru in our area has found that there is a high degree of correlation between low thyroid function and his allergy patients. Both DS and I have low temps and some sx other than food intolerances. Both of us show low free T3 and high reverse T3. (These tests are not usually run)

I've been intensively researching the thyroid lately. I have concluded that lab numbers mean nothing... especially since most drs go by the TSH and T4 only. My favorite books are by Dr. Stephen Langer, Dr. Broda Barnes, Dr. Mark Starr and Dr. Datis Kharrazian, all of which describe longtime practice of treating sx ... and going by BBT.

Blood tests do not show what is actually getting into the body's cells, nor do they show whether the cell mitochondria is actually using the hormone once it's there. And the common T4 testing doesn't show conversion to active T3, another common problem. Reverse T3 blocks the receptor but is not used by body.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
There is not only a toxic and allergy component to block thyroid function as we have discussed but also a genetic component. I have just come across scant mention of this and no in depth discussion. Hoping to find more details. But I have concluded I will not be 100%, and maybe DS too, until my thyroid is.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
If there were one book to read to figure out how to treat myself for thyroid, what would it be? Don't have time to read 6. My #s were all within range for everything but I've been wondering a lot lately (especially since the weight gain) if I shouldn't just try treating thyroid.

ETA: That website is down right now. Hope it comes back.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 









I know my thyroid took a dive at the beginning of this year- I gained 15 pounds in a month, and I was so fatigued I thought I was pregnant (even though I knew I really wasn't.) I think it started after I started supping iodine, which I'm not doing anymore. I think my midwife will run all the thyroid tests if I ask... I should probably do that. But even then, what do I do to fix it? DD had a few thyroid numbers run- TSH: 1.3, TSH Uptake: 27.6, free T3: 4.6 (almost at the top of the normal range), free T4: 1.24. All seemed within range... is there anything that looks off for her?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Maybe my low and wide-ranging temps would make more sense if I tell you why I stopped trying to temp. I was getting so little sleep, and so inconsistently (due to the baby, i personally sleep great), that when I would wake up and take my temp I never knew if I had been unconscious long enough to have gotten into a deep sleep. I didnt know if a higher temp by a few points meant any activity in my cycle, or if it meant I hadn't been really fully asleep. I didn't know if a lower temp meant anything or if it was just the result of being so exhausted and not having completed a single sleep cycle in the whole past week.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I wish I had answers but I don't. My thyroid #s were all within the reference ranges but dang if I"m not exhausted, gaining weight along with a host of other things. Grasping at straws now and that's why I was thinking about testing thyroid. Doing 5-htp trial now and so far it only makes me jittery.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I was reading something about if you're low selenium, then taking iodine can make you hypo and vise versa. If you're low in both, you inch them up together. That's where I am right now, I think.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
One: Starr's or Langer's b/c they both reference Barnes pretty heavily and focus chiefly on treatment with desiccated thyroid hormone. All 3 of those doctors have treated thousands of patients with success focusing on symptoms and not lab tests.

You can try Dr. Lowe's desiccated thyroid or I would bring either of those books in to the doctors you are seeing and start the discussion.

Two: Kharrazian's is a little overwhelming and his treatment relies so heavily on his custom immune supps.... but I do appreciate his take on how getting the thyroid to function doesn't always mean taking thyroid hormone. I'm not sure that he is the last word however, given the long term success and simplicity of the other doctors' approaches.

I came across over and over again in my reading that things like methylation and even nutrient absorption is controlled in some degree by the thyroid. Not to mention symptom after symptom that rang bells for me esp. digestive and chemical intolerance, so I really see it all as chicken and egg right now.

Adrenal is definitely a concern for you too. A thyroid that doesn't work correctly draws on adrenals constantly to raise metabolism and assures the development of adrenal fatigue. If one doesn't tolerate thyroid hormone, the problem is usually adrenal fatigue.

Google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...-and-pathetic/


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Continued from same thread

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
So I just realized that i have lumps on my arms. No the underside but the top. Jane is this the product of thyroid problems? Lumpy arms?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
If iodine causes your thyroid to tank the chief concern would be Hashi's I believe. JR what do you think?

I no longer think tests are indicative of what the thyroid is actually doing in the body cells. They are a good first step, and antibodies should always be run when you have a good reason to suspect thyroid problems but the major thyroid doctors getting results on symptoms treat with desiccated thyroid. Or the immune system which is the new player on the scene, Dr. K:
http://www.thyroidbook.com/

Have you taken her AM temps? Is she frequently cold? cold hands, feet, back or butt. My DS has low BBT, only grew 1 1/4" last year and is frequently cold not to mention the allergies, respiratory issues and chemical intolerance which also seem to be classic signs of impaired thyroid function.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Wha? opposite the bicep you mean, not near the lymph nodes? I have not heard of mucin being lumpy but I imagine it's possible.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
In that case I would do average of 3 day temps, see Dr. Rind's chart:
http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

Poor sleep can tank your adrenals big time too.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Doesn't the thyroid form based on mom's thyroid levels during the critical period of pregnancy? So in theory, isn't it possible that someone's thyroid might never work optimally? Would that have to show up as congenital hypo or might it be what some of us are looking at? Just wondering if this is something worth doing with nutrients alone, or if dessicated thyroid is a better option than it sounds. And why would my thyroid hate me lactating?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Well I'm reading about how panic attacks and depression also resolve with thyroid hormone in addition to all the other stuff I just posted about so I don't think you are grasping at straws at all.

I've been suspecting thyroid for years for myself and some things have improved over the years with nutrition but some have only gotten worse. That is why I read somewhat obsessively on the subject partly to convince myself since I've been told upteen times by multiple drs it's not my thyroid... but then everything makes perfect sense when I read about the drs who treat the sx, of which I have many, and not the lab tests.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Now THAT'S a discussion I've love to have right now. Forget dinner with Einstein, Marie Curie and Michaelangelo, I want to get these thyroid doctors in a room together!!

Totally where I'm at right now Shannon. I've chased nutrients for too long I feel. Both me and DS. I still hate to think that lifelong hormone replacement is the answer so that is why the obsession to make sense of it. I do believe in nutrient healing deficiencies, and genetic need for more, and I've seen enormous help from it in past 4 years, but I keep hitting brick walls it seems.

Plus our family hx. One grandmother died of heart attack at 55, a classic hypoT condition for a woman. The other one was on lifelong thyroid hormone. My father has nodules. Aunts on both sides clearly have hypoT sx. And the bells going off with sx after sx for me...

Today I noticed my knees sometimes crack "like ice" when I go upstairs. Another HypoT sx according to Langer/Starr/Barnes.

The only mention similar to this "being born w/ a hormone deficiency" I've read I think in Wilson's adrenal fatigue book is that the fetus will support the low adrenal mother with their adrenal hormones and thus be born fatigued. And the mother will feel better when the fetus's adrenals come online in second and third trimester. Which describes our situation perfectly. DS's very agitated self, reactiing to foods, touchy personality, also speaks of adrenal fatigue.

I don't imagine that the thyroid would be any different (the fetus's hormones supporting the mother's low thyroid function).... plus the theory that ALL adrenal fatigue in fact starts with a low thyroid.

I've thought about this a lot. I also wonder that bm protected him in some way from worse hypoT sx is that he was also getting thyroid hormones in my bm for several years? Because his brain is not effected. I take what blessings I can.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Forgot to respond to this... what directs prolactin production? The only thing I recall is that low thyroid women often have problems producing enough bm. I never did (only when my calcium dipped low when went dairy free).

all the hormones are intimately connected so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a good explanation. If you look into it, lmk.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
The lumps are sort of to the side of the bicep.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
You know I had my thyroid antibodies tested a year ago. And I had a complete workup by a rheumatologist for a "suspected" autoimmune disease and the conventional doctors came up with zilch. My antibodies were fine and they could not confirm I have an autoimmune disease. come back in 6 months. The best they came up with was a "touch" of fibromyalgia. I just don't know what to think anymore. I just want to feel better and nothing seems to be getting me there.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Seriously? Knees that crackle - that's my mom, and me as of dd being about 1yo. Mo seems to help some







With that and the mucin, my connective tissue needs some work!

The pg thing - it was almost the first symptom - my weight redistributed from arms/face to belly. Like, around 6 weeks, back to pre-dd normal for me (well, minus the belly). I don't think baby's glands had kicked in by then!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Met is the slow comt, which is comt+, I thought? I'm AG and met/met, so I average out, pain-wise.

Prolactin is regulated by dopamine. Apparently it's not uncommon to be hypothyroid if you have high prolactin levels, and it's common to check.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Yeah I know. I made it through about a year of that before my body just ran out of ability to cope with it. Good thing around then he started sleeping better. I've been beefing myself up since then. And my ND gave me some supplements for a short period of time to support my adrenals. And I seem to be all fixed up now, 2 years later. Enough that I felt ready to get pregnant again.

But I haven't tried temping since. So I wonder.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Iodine and thyroid/Hashi's: I can't answer for certain but I can say that MY thyroid tanked hard after I took an "extra" 50% RDA of iodine for 2 weeks ("extra" over the 100% RDA in my prenatal). That was back when I had the "mysterious" sore throat for two weeks in January, if you all recall? That I thought was strep throat? Yeah. No. That was my THYROID swelling up and going insane from being stimulated by iodine- which made it (temporarily) begin producing thyroxine, which made my immune system- which hates my thyroid- say "Oh look there's that thyroid thing again! Let's kill it!"









So, I was looking at my CBC that was done a couple/few months ago, and I noticed that some of the numbers, although "in range" were either in the extreme high or low end of the range. So, I went looking around, Googling (







) the test results and the thing that kept coming up for EVERY thing that was in the high or low end was "pernicious anemia". So I'm guessing that I should probably increase my B12 even though it's obviously "subclinical". Could having "subclinical" B12 deficiency also cause "subclinical" low ferritin? Because my ferritin is in the extreme low end of the range as well...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
yes I have read it [Starr's book Hypothyroidism Type 2] and am reading it for second time right now. I'm changing my mind and saying its the best of the lot given the discussion of peripheral tissue resistance and mitochondria connection and very complete symptom connections, et al

http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Been thinking about this [chlobo's deposits on arms]and remembered it's likely xanthoma, cholesterol deposits which are also connected in Starr's book to hypoT and resolved with hormone treatment.

I've long thought that the lump on my temple was a cholesterol deposit but dr. said it wasn't b/c my cholesterol was so low (160). No dr. I've asked knows what it is.

http://www.righthealth.com/topic/xanthoma/From-Experts


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I hear you. As you can tell I'm pretty much there with nutritional supps. All I can say is that I'm just following my instincts and accepting them, accepting if I get a little obsessed about something for the time being b/c in the past, it's always led to a breakthru (sometimes in a totally different area). My instincts have been very good so far and we have had a lot of improvements, but as I said, I don't feel 100%. DS is obviously not, the uber restrictive diet has got to go. And I need to be 100% given what is going on with my life right now. And he needs to be well, just to give him the best chance at a good life. I'm much more done with not feeling well or feeling like there's a lot going on subtly with me than I am done searching at the moment.

[responding to a question about what can be done about low thyroid function if pregnant]
Certainly there's lots you can do as far as supplements and hormones, and you'd certainly want to know if you are dealing with Hashi's. However, thyroid hormone resistance is not going to show on lab tests.

[JR's question about B12 and ferritin]
Yes I believe so and certainly if you are one of those which need more B12. Plus most people with digestive issues are low in B12 to begin with. And it's one of those nutrients where blood tests are not necessarily accurate to determine how it's being actually used.

see B12 and ferritin discussion here:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/lab-values/

I'm looking into the lactoferrin as posted above. I'm supposed to be dairy free right now though. Cue another "I'm so done with supps" moment.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
All those books, Langer's, Starr's, Barnes' address that [low thyroid symptoms while having "normal" blood tests]

Kharrazian's approach is just different than theirs as he uses thyroid hormone as last resort. To use his approach you'd have to go to a dr. that has been trained by him, it's very complex.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
So what ratio am I looking for with respect to free t3 & reverse t3? It doesn't say. Just refers you to the book which i do not own.

So, this is what I've got so far:

According to him I'm low in b12 & magnesium (no surprise) and may be low in iron and I may be hypothyroid even though all my test results are "normal".


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Continued from Sept 2010 allergy chat thread:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
From the 5 minute video [http://www.thyroidbook.com/] it sounded like the "crux" of his approach is assuming the person has an autoimmune disease - hashi's that's causing the problem. Is that not the case? At any rate, I guess I'll find out when I get the book.

BTW, can you have an autoimmune thyroid disorder if your thyroid has been removed? I'm sure the answer is no.

Can you still have thyroid issues if your thyroid has been removed? I'm guessing yes, because you could still have the same uptake & utilization issues, right?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
For Dr K's book, the first half is all autoimmune, but then he breaks down non-autoimmune 'normal' lab tests into his own normal ranges and says which patterns to look for to figure out the cause of your sx.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Jane, are you on any of Susan Owen's lists (sulfur stories, trying low oxalates, ets)? At the end of june of this year, she sent out a summary of what she got out of the mitochondrial disease foundation conference she went to that was really interesting. What *I* got out of her summary is that exercise really, really matters. I'm kind of on an exercise is important kick, though, seeing it everywhere. I think it's my next big piece. If only I could figure out how to fit it in, timewise... pm me your email if you want me to forward you what she sent out.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Is there any reason that a calcium supplement would make my joints ache? I am SO sore today, for absolutely no reason. My hips are hurting so bad I can hardly walk, and my knees and back aren't much better. I just realized that I started taking my calcium supplement again today, after being out of it for a week. Not sure if that's related...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
He [Dr. Datis Kharrazian] says ai [autoimmune thyroiditis aka Hashi's] causes most of it. I've also read case studies that antibodies come and go so I've always got that on my back burner for DS especially. He's had some anti tpo which concerned me. I don't know enough to know if some, even though below range, is an issue or not.

Have no idea re: ai thyroid disorder and removal of thyroid gland, but I assume that something will still go on immune wise since there are sx that happen all over the body? And the theory with high doses of hormone is that it is supposed to stop the attack but I dont really understand how more hormone stops it.

Yes if your thyroid has been removed you need to be on thyroid hormone, and yes, the uptake and utilization issue still applies... although presumably your symptoms would be treated seriously and hopefully the dr. would just up the hormone. This is a big issue if the standard T4 Synthroid treatment is used b/c conversion to T3 might be impaired. Sx will still be there, but a lot of drs treat by lab numbers only.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
RT3 info
http://thyroid-rt3.com/


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
ok, something is going wrong in my conversion & math b/c my ration is like .0012

Free t3 2.91 pg/mL which is .291 ng/dL (right?)
T3 Rev 23 ng/dL

so the radio ft3/rt3 = .291/23 = .001265

So did I do that correctly? If so I'm in deep do do.

Ok, one other question. It seems this assumes that you produce inadequate levels of t4? Otherwise how would you rid yourself of t4 just by going off the hormone? What if you are producing t4? Simply going on t3 might just complicate things.

ETA: So I need to raise my ferritin level & straighten out my cortisol first? I've tried straightening out my cortisol & it isn't working.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
No, you multiply by 10 not divide. But that would mean your ratio is still close to 29/23=1.26 when it should be 20.

Reverse T3 is only made from T4. So "a theory" is that you give T3 only to shut down the body's production of T4 (when the pituitary sees enough T3 in circulation it will stop signalling production of T4). Then you continue to take T3 only (has to be synthetic, the natural forms such as Armour etc. contain T4). Then the Reverse T3 gradually clears receptors and the active T3 finally works.

What I haven't spent the time on is exactly why the body produces Reverse T3. I've only seen nebulous descriptions its either "stress" or "genetics". It's gotta be more specific than that.

And I wonder if this could be the main reason why some people need very high doses of Armour etc. to feel better and maybe that time tested approach is just simpler. Because T3 only dosing is very very sensitive. You absolutely cannot miss a day and some even say you cannot miss the same pill time everyday, or dose up to 4-5x per day.

What are you doing for cortisol? I'm really up in the air about adrenal only support. Because adrenals can prop up a failing thyroid, but only for so long.

The ferritin seems like a big big factor... 70-90 appears to be the target range when hypo sx start resolving. I'm nowhere near that.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Ok duh, forgot I read this.
http://thyroid-rt3.com/whatare1.htm
Typical for me lately, major brain fog is a sx I'd like resolved!!!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
My ferritin was 33 and now its 51. But I haven't been treating it. Just eating more red meat now than during my elimination diet phase. So I guess its good its going up. I am considering floradix for the iron since I have it. Although maybe I should try the stuff you recommended.

I tried all sorts of adrenal supplements and none of them did anything. I tried 5-htp and it didn't help although my ND (now) thinks the dose wasn't high enough.

However, something has changed for the worse for me. Whereas I used to have "some" trouble sleeping, now I always seem too. I never feel like I reach deep sleep. Like its twilight sleep or something. My ND thinks its the b12 I started taking (because I have those pesky genes that say I need tons for my methylation to work). So she thinks I should back off those a little & try a higher dose of 5-htp.

In the meantime, I just sent in a urine amino acid test.

Bsically, I'm throwing a lot of mud at the wall and seeing if anything sticks (nothing so far).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I think if you haven't tried adrenal glandulars that would be the next step?

Does the B12 mobilize stuff then? You are taking early in AM? It helped me sleep but not if I took it later in the day.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I'm pretty sure I tried adrenal glandular. In fact, I'm taking one right now from Yasko.

I take my b12 before 3. Usually before noon.

Yes, it appears to be mobilizing things.

ETA: It doesn't seem like taking t3 at a low dose without a plan to increase would be successful. Does it?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Is your iron low too? I think I missed the beginning of the ferritin discussion, but it made me curious so I looked at some of my old labs. Last summer, when the doc told me my iron was low and had me supping with 1000mg/day, my iron was at 25, but ferritin was 85. The next time it was tested (a few months later, after supping), my iron was 142 and ferritin was down to 59. Does that mean anything?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 







Mine's at 39.

[A reply to JaneS asking about how taking thyroid hormone stops Hashi's autoimmune attacks]
More hormone being supplemented means that your body stops producing the hormone. For some reason, the body doesn't react to exogenous thyroid hormone the same way as it does to hormone it produced itself (it's lacking the "auto" so the "immunity" doesn't kick in).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Thanks, that makes perfect sense!

Should I be concerned on the low grade antibodies for DS? His test was 15 for anti tpo and the range is normal at under 35 IU/ml. I'm worried with the rest of his numbers, any antibodies might mean a problem. He is strictly gluten free and has been for many years now. Well, except for the STBX factor.

DS's Free T3 is below the normal range. His ratio is 1:1 for FT3 to RT3. And if that's not bad enough... his ferritin is 22. Oy.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I got you beat







12, up from 5. That was at the end of June, though, presumably it's gone up more since then.

I *think* ferritin stores in the gut lining, and unexplained low ferritin can be a sign of gut damage/high cell turnover.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Related to this, you have the ACE++ mutation (deletion). What that does is mess with aldosterone - think of it as low level adrenal stress constantly, and magnified in cases of real stress. Adrenal fatigue is common in adults with ACE++ mutations.

I'm starting to read more about this - I don't have many of the symptoms, but I'm wondering if I'm in early stage adrenal/thyroid issues (in the last couple of years, cold feet and trouble losing weight have cropped up). Got a thermometer, taking my temps. DH goggled







, last time I did that I was trying to get pregnant. I reminded him he had a vasectomy







.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
When it rains, it pours!
So I got my blood drawn on Wednesday, because I have a physical with my regular doctor next Friday. Well his office called today. Low thyroid, he wants to put me on Synthroid. And not to wait until I see him next Friday. Of course I don't have any of the numbers; it was just a message that the receptionist had.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
I can't answer your antibodies questions, JaneS. I have no idea if my antibodies were ever <35... Every test I've ever seen for them has been in the thousands... It does sound like he may have a conversion problem though... Although, since iron is one of the substrates used to produce thyroxine... I can't remember where I was going with that thought.

Yes, it can be compounded but I might try to get my doctor to consider Armour/natural dessicated thyroid before going on synthetic thyroid hormone.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Chlobo, I totally missed this a while back (this was 5htp). 50mg makes DS & I (both MAO+) totally wired/edgy/nutso - and then we crash. Note that crashing for me involves not being able to sleep (I think my body swings to low serotonin and then can't make enough melatonin to support good sleep).

So I've taken my daytime temps today - ranging from 98.2 to 97.7. So low (but not crazy) and also swingy. I'll keep temping, but if I understand this correctly, that means at least some level of both adrenal & thyroid fatigue, but probably not crazy for either? I think I'm going to try this supp, glandular support for thyroid & a little for adrenals (I have more adrenal glandular I can add if need be). See if it warms my feet up







.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Hmmm - you could try the time release melatonin, Chlobo. That helps some people stay asleep.

Can you do trace dairy? If you can, I'd give the lactoferrin a try. Jarrow's lactoferrin is from whey, so might also be OK if it's the casein you react to, and not the whey. If not, maybe ferritin. Also work on your B12, some anemia will go nowhere until you have B12 levels up.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
You can still temp for a ballpark. Sure, lying in bed right after waking is ideal, but just random temps throughout the day can tell a story as well.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
I've been doing daytime temps. The metabolic temping site I linked to above says take your temp 3hrs after waking, then every 3 hours (3 times total in the day). Mid afternoon temps should be 98.6, if they're lower than that, probably thyroid issues (apparently this is one way to track if you have added enough thyroid meds as well). Swinging temps means adrenal issues. I only have one swingy one though, I need a few more days to know on that. The rest of them were 98.1-98.2 (I took more than 3 today).

So, my feet warm up when I eat sugar. What does that mean?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
So if my temp has ALWAYS (as long as I can remember) been 96.8 (unless I'm feeling sick; then they go up to about 98-99), I'm looking at thyroid issues? Maybe I should try temping to see if I get any swinging. hmmmm. I better get a new thermometer... all of ours suck.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
well, if I'm any indication then YES. that is my exact normal temp prior to thyroid supping. it is now 97.6


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Back when I had occasion to test my temps during the day (like a dr. appointment or something) my temps were always low no matter when I took them. Like below 98 so 97 something. But back then I was a lot "colder" than now, although it is a very warm summer. I'll try next week when I'm near a thermometer. What kind do you folks use? Digital?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
So I've suspected thyroid issues for a while (my temps are 96.8-97.3, only going up to 98.6 if I'm sick). And I guess my blood is finally showing it. The only thing is, the last week I started taking Iodarol because it's supposed to be good to prevent breast cancer. I took it for about 5 days, and not the night before the test, because I was going to start the Tamoxifen (which I started the night after my blood test). So what effect did the iodine have on my thyroid test?

And I remember that I have the type of blood (A) the endocrinologist said one of the thyroid meds didn't work on (but I suspect Synthroid). She put me on whatever she did because of it. Of course I didn't write it down anywhere. I wonder if the pharmacy would still have it. About 4 years ago.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
hmmm... I have to look into that if I end up needing thyroid meds. I'm A as well.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Another type A here, with low temps here, too

Time to buy a glucose meter?









The only time I passed it [the zinc test] was when I'd been taking 90mg/day for a couple weeks...
My sister passed on her first try. So did dh's brother. Dh, not so much.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
I don't know how it's officially written, I think Graves is considered autoimmune, my mom had it and now has no thyroid (sorta no thyroid, when she took some of the supps I recommended a while back, she had to reduce her dosage of Synthroid--which overall has not been a great med for her, I don't thinks he's changing T4 to T3 well, nor is she utilizing it well, she's never felt the same since the irradiation and then supplementation).

[to changingseasons re: calcium]

I don't know any mechanism, my first thought was the osteoarthritis - excess calcium link, The Calcium Lie talks about calcium not balanced with other stuff, mostly mag but really lots of stuff, as being a big piece of the puzzle leading to osteoarthritis, along with all sorts of other stuff. So clearly this isn't o/a right now, but maybe something inflamed along those lines? Maybe extra mag first, then see if you can add the cal back in?


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

wow that's a lot of talking we did!


----------



## Purple Sage (Apr 23, 2007)

Subbing. I'm attempting to self-treat with natural thyroid supplements (and other stuff) since Synthroid was not working well and I can't afford all the testing and doctor's visits, anyway. I just want my hair to stop falling out.









Maybe I should start following the allergy thread, too.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

And the talking continues...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
My sister and I were playing with skin - the mucin arm pinch stuff. All of her skin is way looser than mine. I'm realizing that my extra weight seems to be lactation related - never had it pre-dd and went back to my normal body type when pg with ds. I'm sure there's a clue there, but I have no clue what it is. My thyroid doesn't like making milk?

Eta: I came across a blurb today mentioning that folate protects against birth defects caused by bpa in plastics. Interesting, no?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Hey whoMe,

The mucin logged arm skin is different than fat, much firmer. I wonder if your issue is that of T3 conversion and there is something impairing it when you are lactating?

Clobo and I were talked about iron, are you taking iron and what form?
Is it working? It could be a factor in hair loss if you are still noticing.

I was reading about iron bis-glycinate. I want to try to get my ferritin up, apparently liver and red meat is doing squat and that can also effect thyroid function a great deal. Broda Barnes the thyroid guru says ferritin should be 100 in those with thyroid disorders. Dr. Mark Starr recs ferretin 130 in menstruating women!










Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Very interesting. Must get rid of it [bpa] through better methylation?

Is there a mitochondria thread around? I feel like I need to (try) to understand that better.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I haven't seen any online just in his book. Supposedly even if you are chubby the skin will separate from the underlying tissue if you don't have mucin accumulating. If you do, it will be impossible to separate on your upper arm. Also outer thigh. It will feel different than another chubby area on your body.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Yeah, the mucin fits much better than fat for me. Iron's definitely low, though I don't think I'm actually anemic anymore







. Have you thought about lactoferrin for better iron transport, like yasko suggests?

I'll see if I can get pictures/video of everyone's arm skin this afternoon.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Another rec for lactoferrin - it helps transport iron where it's needed. Just taking iron supps (if you aren't transporting iron well) can cause gut bacteria virulence to increase (iron feeds them).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
And lately I've been wondering if my skipping my Iodoral (for months now) is having an impact. My hair seems to be falling out at an increased rate lately. I am hoping that right now I'm fighting off something, and the sudden fatigue and feeling blah is an illness and not a downtick in my thyroid function.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Your AM temps should tell you Tanya


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
But they've never been normal, not since 5 years ago. My daytime temps are almost normal, which I've counted as a huge improvement, since for a couple years there, I didn't get above 98.0 unless I was really sick. But my morning temps, while noticeably better than 5 years ago, are still not what's called normal--and I've had times with little fatigue and that seemed very adrenal.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
I haven't temped in so long. Now you've inspired me to try.

When I was temping, my morning temps were around 95.7, and my daytime ones were around 96.8. But my thyroid test numbers looked beautiful. <shrug> I've never had any other symptoms that would suggest being hypothyroid.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 







Those are the types of numbers I got at my worst, I felt horrible. (eta: obviously I'm glad you don't!) What thyroid tests were run? JaneS has had recent posts on some reasons even stuff like free T3 and free T4 would look normal (I think it was those, TSH is very erratic, some people see huge changes there before symptoms and some take ages to see any movement in TSH even with a mountain of symptoms).

Interesting. I thought it was interesting, too, when I saw an acupuncturist for a while in the spring that she asked about my thyroid, thought it was a bit low, and I think at the time it was in the probably-somewhat-low-but-I-felt-asymptomatic place it's been for a couple years now. She asked because of my pulse, I think, maybe combined with my tongue, but not because of specific symptoms I described, at least that was my impression at the time.

I'm wondering what it would take to get back to 100%... while in theory I think it's possible, at a more practical level I wonder if it's just not going to happen. I'd like to win the lottery. Guess I should play if I really want to incorporate that into the plan.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I would be extremely surprised if you had no other sx given those very low temps. The sx are pretty wide ranging:
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

Recently I've found out that the alternative allergy guru in our area has found that there is a high degree of correlation between low thyroid function and his allergy patients. Both DS and I have low temps and some sx other than food intolerances. Both of us show low free T3 and high reverse T3. (These tests are not usually run)

I've been intensively researching the thyroid lately. I have concluded that lab numbers mean nothing... especially since most drs go by the TSH and T4 only. My favorite books are by Dr. Stephen Langer, Dr. Broda Barnes, Dr. Mark Starr and Dr. Datis Kharrazian, all of which describe longtime practice of treating sx ... and going by BBT.

Blood tests do not show what is actually getting into the body's cells, nor do they show whether the cell mitochondria is actually using the hormone once it's there. And the common T4 testing doesn't show conversion to active T3, another common problem. Reverse T3 blocks the receptor but is not used by body.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
There is not only a toxic and allergy component to block thyroid function as we have discussed but also a genetic component. I have just come across scant mention of this and no in depth discussion. Hoping to find more details. But I have concluded I will not be 100%, and maybe DS too, until my thyroid is.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
If there were one book to read to figure out how to treat myself for thyroid, what would it be? Don't have time to read 6. My #s were all within range for everything but I've been wondering a lot lately (especially since the weight gain) if I shouldn't just try treating thyroid.

ETA: That website is down right now. Hope it comes back.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 









I know my thyroid took a dive at the beginning of this year- I gained 15 pounds in a month, and I was so fatigued I thought I was pregnant (even though I knew I really wasn't.) I think it started after I started supping iodine, which I'm not doing anymore. I think my midwife will run all the thyroid tests if I ask... I should probably do that. But even then, what do I do to fix it? DD had a few thyroid numbers run- TSH: 1.3, TSH Uptake: 27.6, free T3: 4.6 (almost at the top of the normal range), free T4: 1.24. All seemed within range... is there anything that looks off for her?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Maybe my low and wide-ranging temps would make more sense if I tell you why I stopped trying to temp. I was getting so little sleep, and so inconsistently (due to the baby, i personally sleep great), that when I would wake up and take my temp I never knew if I had been unconscious long enough to have gotten into a deep sleep. I didnt know if a higher temp by a few points meant any activity in my cycle, or if it meant I hadn't been really fully asleep. I didn't know if a lower temp meant anything or if it was just the result of being so exhausted and not having completed a single sleep cycle in the whole past week.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I wish I had answers but I don't. My thyroid #s were all within the reference ranges but dang if I"m not exhausted, gaining weight along with a host of other things. Grasping at straws now and that's why I was thinking about testing thyroid. Doing 5-htp trial now and so far it only makes me jittery.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I was reading something about if you're low selenium, then taking iodine can make you hypo and vise versa. If you're low in both, you inch them up together. That's where I am right now, I think.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
One: Starr's or Langer's b/c they both reference Barnes pretty heavily and focus chiefly on treatment with desiccated thyroid hormone. All 3 of those doctors have treated thousands of patients with success focusing on symptoms and not lab tests.

You can try Dr. Lowe's desiccated thyroid or I would bring either of those books in to the doctors you are seeing and start the discussion.

Two: Kharrazian's is a little overwhelming and his treatment relies so heavily on his custom immune supps.... but I do appreciate his take on how getting the thyroid to function doesn't always mean taking thyroid hormone. I'm not sure that he is the last word however, given the long term success and simplicity of the other doctors' approaches.

I came across over and over again in my reading that things like methylation and even nutrient absorption is controlled in some degree by the thyroid. Not to mention symptom after symptom that rang bells for me esp. digestive and chemical intolerance, so I really see it all as chicken and egg right now.

Adrenal is definitely a concern for you too. A thyroid that doesn't work correctly draws on adrenals constantly to raise metabolism and assures the development of adrenal fatigue. If one doesn't tolerate thyroid hormone, the problem is usually adrenal fatigue.

Google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...-and-pathetic/


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
So I just realized that i have lumps on my arms. No the underside but the top. Jane is this the product of thyroid problems? Lumpy arms?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
According to the stopthyroidmadness site JaneS links to, 98.6 is normal mid-afternoon temp, anything lower than that is thyroid issues. If it swings as well, it's also adrenals (often they come together). So you take your temp 3 hours after waking (and 20 minutes away from food/exercise), and then 3 hours after that, and 3 hours after that. First thing in the morning temps are lower - so what is your daytime temp?

I'm using digital - the thyroidmadness site says use mercury, but that's just not practical for me. The digitals could be off by a bit, but they should be consistently off (and not by a degree!).

I'm using the guidance at this site to judge want my temps mean

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

The thing I like about this approach is that it doesn't involve repeat blood tests (of markers that are often normal for people who have thyroid issues, especially mild like mine likely are). And, you can keep tracking your temp to see if taking thyroid/adrenal supports is helping.










No, I realized I'd taken my first dose of thyroid support - betcha that's why my feet got warm! I don't have any signs of insulin resistance, I just noticed my feet got warm last night and the first correlation I made was to the chocolate thingie I'd eaten at dinner. Not the raw thyroid. DUH.

We're using those, have been for about a month. Jury is out on them for DH, I think they do OK for DD, for DS, I use them for low protein meals/snacks and use the Yasko ones for higher protein intake.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 

I'd be concerned about supp-ing iron, swinging too high isn't good (it's one of the few, along with copper, that I'd want to really be sure was needed before I did a trial with it). I forget, are you already gluten-free? I'd probably cut gluten if you haven't already and add in cell salts, bioplasma (the 12-in-1) and maybe ferr phos? Get a copy (if you don't have one already) of The Biochemic Handbook, same place the cell salts are sold (long thread in H&H about cell salts), the book's just $4. Helps with utilization/absorption of nutrients. Sounds too good to be true but I was able to halve the amount of zinc I give the kids due to start these (and I notice recurrence of symptoms when I slack on the bioplasma). Coolest stuff.

For B12, mamafish's site for liquid B12, holistic heal, is inexpensive and easy to dose, I'd start with hydroxy B12. One bottle has lots of drops, so the bottle isn't cheap, but it'll last a long time.

Yay!









I'd be low level concerned about antibodies. Cutler is cautious about supp-ing iron for people with mercury issues, seems there are some stresses that cause the body to intentionally dump iron. That said, I supp'd iron when my ferritin was low (70-ish, both DO and acupuncturist said too low, I think my iron was perfectly fine) and didn't see any change, good or bad.

One thing I've seen in myself is either over- or under-reactions to things. Like, years ago I would shake and be really affected when, say, a car tried to change lanes into me and I had to swerve to not be hit. Last few years, I don't flinch (even from stuff that I think I should react more to). I think it's a downward step--though lately I am much calmer and happier with the kids. Not super mom by any stretch, but okay-mom, which is an improvement.

I'd assume the B12 is playing a big part in it. It seems like, in people who are super-duper low in B12, starting it is a bitch and a half, and by starting, it seems like it can take a long time to get back to a more stable place.









Do you have any supps that you can ramp up? I'd assume more mag, C, double dose of whatever multivit you've got? Though I think looking at specific amino acids and acquiring a custom blend sounds great, really a good idea. I'd tend to guess that, to get significant relief, you're going to need more than just vit/min supps.

Oh, the other thing--my not being able to sleep in the middle of the night was adrenal-related, and I'd expect the B12 to be stressing your adrenals. My parents are taking pregnenolone for their adrenals--I haven't looked into it much, it's cheap and readily available, maybe consider it? It's somewhere in that chemical chain that adrenal hormones are in.

That's what I saw--swingy was more adrenal.

I have a digital one [thermometer] that I found a few years ago, I wanted to buy a new one but couldn't find one that was accurate enough. +/- 0.2 is not good enough, be sure to know the accuracy of whatever you get. If/when I replace, I'll buy online and make sure it's intended to be a BBT thermometer. I like digital, they seem accurate for me, I know some prefer analog (mercury? alcohol? not sure which).

It could've changed something, hard to say what, I think I felt a little better, my hair started falling out less, when I first started Iodoral, I think within just a few days. So if physical symptoms can change that fast, I'd think bloodwork could (not guaranteed, because my initial bloodwork, when I first felt horrible--cold/fatigue, icky stuff, was pretty normal-looking, and it was slow to trend out of the ref range).

Hey, I think maybe my hair is falling out less, I re-started my Iodoral. Now that I have the Internet again, I need to order more, I've only got about 3 pills left. Sigh.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 

I had no physical symptoms that got better when I was taking the Iodoral. And the oncologist looked at me funny when I said I was taking it to reduce the breast cancer risk, so I stopped it (waiting until I have my osteopath appt to see his take on everything; haven't seen him since June). But would the Iodoral made me "get" low thyroid? With nodules, I thought I should have been more prone to hyper than hypo.

Why are there so many of us A blood types... doesn't that seem strange?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
I actually had the information written down. I was on Levoxyl for 3 months in the fall of 2008. I don't have the dosage but I could call the pharmacy and ask. Didn't do anything. That was when I went to the endo and she said my numbers were fine but she'd try me on them for a few months to see if they did anything for me. They didn't. So I stopped. My regular doctor checks the numbers every year (I think just TSH and T3) because I have nodules.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Brownstein's iodine book has a big breast cancer focus. And I SWEAR I read somewhere (don't remember where) that iodine works with selenium and if you're low in one and supp the other, it can make you hypo.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Iodine can stimulate the thyroid so that it makes more thyroxine which, if you have antibodies, increases their production, causing destruction of the thyroid to hasten. Best I can say on that subject.

Levoxyl = different brand of same medicine as Synthroid.

I'm blood type B- ds1 is AB.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So I tried this thyroid supp:

http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Sources...ules/6009?at=0

Took one yesterday evening, and my feet warmed up. Took it again this morning, and it made me nauseous, and my afternoon temp is 98.8!! OK, I guess I don't need a whole one! Or I'm sick with DS' puking thing, hopefully the former







.

I'm going to split it into smaller doses and add some adrenal glandular (I'll mix up capsules to take 2x/day like the thyroidmadness site recommends).

But for those of you who might want to do a little experimenting with thyroid supports, this one seems to have a decent amount of kick for an OTC option.

ETA: Nope, I take it all back, i have DS' puking bug...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Interesting about Synthroid and type A blood. When I was 20 my doctor insisted I was hypothyroid from one blood test, and gave my Synthroid. In the same visit, I asked him if on one of the blood tests he could check my blood type because I was curious. Nope, he said. They only check that if there is good reason to. I guess he didn't know there could be a good reason.

---

Re the oral zinc tally test....Every time I've tried it, it has tasted like the most horrible stuff I have ever tasted. Whenever my friends have been curious enough to taste it, they also thought it was miserable.

----

Re thermometers...mine is a Basal Digital brand one. I chose that because it is the only one I found that is accurate to the tenth of a degree, rather than only to a fifth of a degree. A tenth of a degree could mean a lot of you are charting.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Is this the same supplement? A bit cheaper a vitacost

http://www.vitacost.com/Natural-Sour...id-90-Capsules


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Since Levoxyl is T4, if you have a T4 to T3 conversion problem and/or a problem with cell mitochondria in accepting and then utilizing T3, it could very well do nothing.

Well mine [ferritin] is in the 30's and DS in the 20's so we gotta do something. I'm going to try lactoferrin with him I think.

I'm real and it [zinc taste test] got better but I haven't passed yet. It's now hydrogen peroxide tasting unstead of "spit it out immediately" bad.

Yep to the low temps. As I've said before, my research now is pointing to the allergies/intolerances being caused by thyroid issues. It would be awesome if you could see some improvement by treating your thyroid.

David Brownstein's Iodine book and also David Derry's book talk a lot about the breast cancer low iodine connection.

Tamoxifen effects the thyroid as well.
http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl1a.htm

My understanding is that nodules are the thyroid's way of trying to cope with low iodine... by enlarging in attempt seek more.

Did you have antibody testing too? What were your numbers?

All Signs Point to Yes. We use some green mercury free thermometer I got at CVS. I think it's been accurate.

Did you have thyroid antibodies tested?

I've had my synthetic T3 for a while now and I cannot get myself to take it. Desiccated thyroid contains T4, T3, T2 and T1, and calcitonin too for proper calcium absorption. (I always remember Hilary Butler's quote: "Excess calcium causes cancer cells to grow like billie-o.")

The doctors that use desiccated thyroid say that there were side effects of synthetics that they don't see now once they started using desiccated on patients. Everything I'm reading is screaming that that is the most bioidentical form. I'd never take synthetic estrogen, and the problems with it are legion, so I'm seeing thyroid as the same way.

Less allergenic desiccated thyroid than Armour is Westhroid or Naturthroid, or Erfa from Canada, check the Stop Thyroid Madness site.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
If it were me and I had low body temps and other low thyroid symptoms I'd be grateful for the official go ahead to trial hormones.

I'd try selenium since that is vital for T3 conversion and mercury knocks it down. Standard dose is 200 mcg but some say can go up 400 mcg. Start slow, I had issues with it at first.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
The osteo is putting me on an herbal instead of the abx for lyme to see how that does for me. He doesn't like the sounds of the Tamoxifen. And he said the regular doctor should put me on Armour or he knows a compounding pharmacy that could make me a safe one. So at least I know that I have options!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Ugh, both computers dying would be like losing my brain! Great news re: herbs and compounded Armour. There are other powders that pharmacies can use as a simple filler. I've heard of acidophilus but that is probably dairy. I think an amino acid too?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Yes I did. The first time they tested both antibodies and they were both negative as in < whatever it said. The second time was only a couple of months later and only one was tested and it was negative as well.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
Oh, and building tartar is "genetic" ... I asked, basically he doesn't know. I don't either, but I'll just say "I don't know." I still want to fix it.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6624423

I have not gotten this cite to read yet but according to other references it says tartar build up is related to low thyroid.

Which is making sense to me b/c calcitonin produced by the thyroid, opposed by parathyroid hormone, influence calcium control in the body.

Just another sx chalked up for DS. I haven't had a chance to ask our holistic dentist about it since I made the connection.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I got the hypo book in the mail today, Jane.
[this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...IN=0975262408]

I've only flipped through to look at the pictures and read a few blips. Talk about a slap in the face! Um, yeah. Where do I sign up for desiccated thyroid? Who do I need to talk to? And after that's settled, I absolutely want to talk about mitochondria and cell walls and all that stuff. My moment of clarity is saying treat with hormones first, then figure out the why, and then start addressing the cell stuff to try and reduce the dosage needed. Of course, I haven't actually read the book yet, and I forget how it all goes with the adrenal stuff (which do you do first again?) or things like iodine/selenium deficiency. And I still want to know how this relates to my myexedmia being very significant while lactating, but not while pg or pre-dd. I've got some reading to do! Awesome book, if only for the pictures and nothing else! (I'll get our arm pinch pics up asap, they look exactly like the examples in the book







)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
So for the arm picture... I'm confused... does that mean you should be able to just pinch some skin on your arm? And if I can't, it's an issue? I've never heard of a "skinny hypo" so now I have to go do a search for that.

Read a book this morning called "Tamoxifen & Breast Cancer" when they first started the study to see if it would prevent BC. And it said 2 years into the study they said it contributed to bone loss in premenopausal women (that's me)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
No, that's why I wanted to get it too... the study was mentioned as a reference to tartar somewhere else but that issue is not stated in the abstract. However, I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's another hypoT sx based on what I've learned about calcitonin and his other sx too.

Like his hairy back







just found that connection (lanugo due to low body temp) at another cool site I've been poking around in, reading Barnes' and Hertoghe's notes http://www.thyroidresearch.com

No kidding huh?! [in response to whoMe's reaction to getting Mark Starr's book]
Now you all will understand more of why I've been a broken record trying to work this out in my head lately. It was like I'd been slapped upside the head too.

Finding out the interstitial cystitis/bladder lining connection to hypoT just completely floored me for several days!!! I will have a lot of advocacy work to do if I find that thyroid hormone completely eradicates my bladder sensitivity. I can say I'm cured from a regular IC standpoint now b/c I know how to manage it, and supps have helped a great deal, but I would love all twinges to go away and be able to eat sals with abandon. At that point you won't be able to shut me up.









And the Fibromyalgia connection (I don't have FM, just generalized muscle ache, but am reading about it constantly as its just another new dx for an old problem: hypoT) is just huge too, HUGE.

I don't know much about the Natural Sources thyroid extract that Deb posted about yesterday. I have heard other thyroid patients say it's much too weak, and that it might work first and then stop working b/c it's hard to keep upping your dose as your cells start to absorb and utilize the hormone. Everyone is different how much they need.

I've also heard about Dr. Lowe's ThyroGold that is available OTC (site link below) it has the full thyroid hormones intact. Not sure how many grains one capsule is, might be 1/2 or 1/4 grain based on his discussion that most people need 7 caps?

It would be cheaper to go with Armour (although problems with this too, the cellulose filler prevents full absorption, many people are taking sublingually or chewing it up) or Naturthroid or Westhroid. Possibly specially compounded would be cheaper, haven't priced that out yet but will go that route for DS so I'll let you know. I also want to do this with a dr. ideally. I also have a concern about starting something and then not being able to get it anymore. That's a concern with supplements with T3 b/c you cannot stop cold turkey.

DS has to be done with a dr. We are lucky we have a Broda Barnes Foundation dr. for him and possibly me if my current dr. won't treat this way. Or maybe she'll consult w/ him b/c she used to work with him.... hmmmm....









Basically you need to find a Broda Barnes style doctor.
http://www.brodabarnes.org/

One that will treat symptoms and not lab values, like the thyroid used to be treated before the advent of Synthroid and the faulty TSH test.

One who will continue to up your desiccated thyroid dose slowly until sx are gone, not pronounce you cured by watching improved lab values. You need to be aware of hyperT sx and watch for them. Dr. Lowe's website has a good treatis on this and lots of other good info on his site:
http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

Although I would rec getting antibodies and full thyroid panel done first just to know what you might be dealing with.

I really don't know if just iodine can fix a hypoT person, there is certainly a lot of discussion of it... and that was my bent last year as you know. BUT b/c I cannot tolerate large doses for whatever reason its not the answer for me. DS also appears not to tolerate large amounts too but he does great on small ones. I still haven't found the definitive answer why, whether it's detox or what, and we've loaded nutrients up the wahzoo.

Selenium is essential and demonstrable in studies that a deficiency reduced thyroid function, I would start that now if you are not taking already.

Starr's is now my favorite book (his website talks more about it for the people who don't have it http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=12), he really goes into a lot of clinical and research detail. I read it 3 times to absorb it all. The connections I'm making to my own quirks, and my family's, throughout my life are amazing.

Starr also addresses the toxicity question which I think about a great deal. But I have also come across the theory that it's the thyroid that controls detox as well. Broda Barnes' called it "the thyroid takes out the garbage".

There was some mention of lactation on that thyroid reseach site I think, don't know what you can find there about your situation. I still want to know about how a fetus's adrenals and thyroid hormones transfer to the mother. Because I felt fantastic the second and third trimester and I think that is why.

Oh and adrenals....
One of the theories of the "examine and treat the patient, not the lab value" style of thyroid doctors is that low adrenals are almost always caused by them trying to rescue a low thyroid.

Because when the metabolism is low, the adrenals will constantly be called on to prop it up. So once some people start thyroid hormone, the adrenals are too weak and you cannot tolerate it, and some cortisol might need to be supped. The gold standard is the saliva adrenal test, from Neuroscience.

Right now many typically test adrenals first, but in the past they didn't I think, just started very slow with desiccated thyroid. Starr mentions it and I forget what he says in his book. I'm waiting for my adrenal test to come back since I have obvious symptoms.

The STTM website has a good outline on adrenals:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/

And good books are Wilson's and Jeffries' with more info at these sites:

http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

http://www.conscioushealing.com.au/i...d=72&Itemid=57









71 degrees now in my sunny dining room. I'm fully dressed with my midweight coat still on and my feet (in shoes and socks) are cold. Hands fairly warm due to typing. Didn't exercise this morning beyond walking DS up the hill to school, usually exercise gets me a couple hours of warmth.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yep, those are perfect!!! [the arm pictures linked in the first post to this Low Thyroid thread]
Your husband is normal just like the book. I also came across the other day that more women than men are hypoT b/c testosterone increases thyroid or something like that.

Healthy arm skin looks like her husband's skin, thin to pinch regardless of how fat or skinny you are.

If if doesn't, it means mucin has accumulated under the skin. The term myxedema referes to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxedema

Mucin accumulation ONLY occurs from thyroid malfunction according to medical research done by autopsies. It used to be a primary tool doctors used to dx hypoT, but now is not used b/c doctors now just peer at little lab numbers instead of looking at the actual patient.

Other areas of typical early stage mucin accumulation can also include the front of thigh, face and puffy eyes. Later stage is usually the hands and ankles and other areas.

However, and this is a big however.... areas you can't see mucin accumulation in the body can be the most important. Because it can invade the heart, intestines, brain, etc.

The heart can enlarge (and clinical study shows it reduces on thyroid hormones thus proving efficacy). The voice box can accumulate mucin and cause a tell tale hypoT hoarse voice (I have this too, always thought it was allergy related but now I have no sinusitis or hay fever and still hoarse). Other areas of the body can get mucin too, bloating of abdomen for example.

re: tamoxifen and risk of bone loss
Wonder if that's because of how it effects the thyroid and the calcitonin issue I posted above.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Dang - seriously? That's me [the myexdema arm pictures], and I have skinny arms. Almost none of the hypo symptoms fit for me, except weird ones like this and cold feet and low temps (vs. ones that make me feel crappy). Huh.

[re: Natural Sources thyroid extract]
My sense is that if you need minor thyroid support, it could help a lot. If you need more than a couple of capsules, you should get the prescription stuff. For me, I have to pay out of pocket for the entire doc visit and testing (never mind finding a doc that will prescribe, last time my lab values were tested, they were all normal), so I'm trying the self-med route first. And I have Canadian connections, so I'd probably go to the erfa stuff if I need more than a couple of capsules (I'm tracking temps to see where I'm at).

ETA: OK, geez. My husband's skin doesn't pinch at all, and his temp is 97.1. Brrr!!! Can hypothyroid contribute to migraines?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
What's getting me about this book is it's listing all sorts of things as symptoms that I hadn't seen before. Like long gestations and big babies that aren't due to gestational diabetes, and lax ligaments (hello dd). It talks about skinny hypos, and tall ones. As I see it, if this is a mito disorder, it can show up in a million ways. And there are so many compounding factors that can cancel symptoms out. It's like a list, and if you have any of the key symptoms, that's good enough. The pictures are amazing. Droopy eyelids, that's so my family.

Jane, I skimmed the mito stuff. I want to go back, and compare it to Susan Owen's stuff, then I'll be ready to talk. Was it you talking about flooding with hormones to regain cell sensitivity? Where was that?

And how do I find the right practitioner? I'll ask my doc, but honestly, I have no idea if it'll be outside her comfort zone... I'm not seeing any directories










Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
ETA: I totally have mucin arms. I'm reading the other thyroid book now and am going to pick Type 2 thyroid up from the library this afternoon.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Purple Sage* 
Subbing. I'm attempting to self-treat with natural thyroid supplements (and other stuff) since Synthroid was not working well and I can't afford all the testing and doctor's visits, anyway. I just want my hair to stop falling out.









Maybe I should start following the allergy thread, too.









Dr. Lowe's website has good advice for self treater that I can remember but I cannot find the page I was thinking of right now. Lots of info in many places though
http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

Also read about ferritin, I have seen many mentions that it needs to be above 70 to start preventing hair loss. Is that your only symptom? It could be nutritional if so. GLA (in borage or evening primrose oil) a capsule with every meal can be helpful too.

You are most welcome on the chat thread or you can post your own "About Me" thread in Allergies.


----------



## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

You serial poster, you! Thanks for organizing all that, now we'll be able to discuss it clearer and go back when, say, our brains aren't all exhausted and we aren't distracted.









eta: as is buried in those many quotes, for me, personally, hair loss seems to be very iodine related. It was the first nutrient I supp'd after I started having blatant hypothyroid symptoms and the one thing it did very well was stop my hair loss. And lately, say in the past 2 weeks, my hair's started falling out again and I realized that I have totally slacked on my Iodoral. I've gotten generally worn down too, but, well, I ordered more Iodoral since we are all but out and I'll report back within a week or two to say whether that seems to be still my biggest on/off switch.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Question - if you get the right thyroid dose, how fast do mucin arms disappear?

Good question. The before/after pics in the book (of faces) are in the 4-14mo later range. When I got pg, my face and arms were looking considerably different by 10 or 11 weeks preggo. I'm assuming that was mucin.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

The last installment!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Definitely, there's a lot about that in Starr's book.
[about children and hypothyroidism]

ETA: also what was interesting... can't remember if it was Starr or Langer's book... was a discussion on how hypoT's attract and marry other hypoT's. My STBX is most definitely hypoT as well.

Starr's book talks about mito disorders being just simply Hypothyrodism Type 2. Because the sx are the same and they resolve with treatment.

That is what he says... the body needs to be flooded with thyroid hormones to overcome genetic mutations which cause resistance (inability of cells to accept or utilize thyroid hormone so blood levels look normal but cell levels are not, thus where the sx are coming from.)

The Armour website has a list of docs that px Armour, I would call and ask about their treatment protocols.
http://www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx

The Broda Barnes Foundation charges $18 for info on their affliated practitioners in your area.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Mucin arms









I'm so excited to have reading buddies!!

I especially want others with kids like ours to read the part about how TB was eradicated with antibx and thus contributing to more hypoT's in our population. Made my heart sink to think of DS that way. Well I already did since he's ana. I'm so grateful for this thyroid knowledge already.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
OMG!
eta: definitely have mucin arms..are they supposed to go away with proper treatment?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Are you a member? Is Armour the only thing they px? And what is px anyhow?

So then does Starr think that the other guy is off base? Goes too far? Does Starr not think that everyone has hashimotos? I'm not really sure to go with that b/c it's suspected that I *might* be developing an autoimmune condition. Originally they were thinking lupus but maybe its hashi's, even tho my antibodies were negative twice now. OK, here are a sampling of TSH #s over the last 2 years. Would they be considered "swingy"?

8/10 - .82
5/10 - 1.02
4/09 - .61
4/08 - 1.07



Quote:


Originally Posted by *deditus* 
OMG, Jane, have you looked at the eyebrow pictures?!? That is me - with no eyebrows on the outer edge. And my mom's family jokes about us young girls in the family having the responsibility of plucking the elder women's eyebrows when they get old because they have such crazy, unruly Hungarian eyebrows. The thyroid stuff comes from my dad's side, they all have the xanthomas, undereye puffiness, that hypo "look".

http://www.thyroidresearch.com/viewA...articleno=2261

Oh I see it is called "Sign of Hertoghe". I had heard of it before but never seen a pic.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
Emily, I'm going to keep this idea in my back pocket, I want to see how the tartar situation is in 6 months--want to give it time, see if anything's changed already.

So I took the kids' (regular daytime) temps earlier today, both were right near 98.6 F. I should do the daytime temp tracking from Dr. Rind for them and see if anything shows up.

Anyone pinch their kids' arms? Kid arms are so little, wonder if they're easier/harder to pinch the skin (w/o actually pinching, of course). DS was, of course, wearing a thick, long-sleeved top from last winter (that's too small and he didn't want to admit it) but I need to check his arm too.

Jane, are kid arms supposed to be the same with regard to mucin?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes, maybe you need more crack... uh thyroid hormone!







[response to JR asking if mucin arms are supposed to go away with treatment]

Mucin leaving the body is the sign they [traditional thyroid doctors such as Barnes and Starr] used that treatment is working. And given that it can infiltrate the rest of your body and cause wide ranging sx, I'd want it gone.

Only drs are members [of Broda Barnes Foundation].

px= prescribe, prescription like dx diagnose, diagnosis and sx symptom.

I forget what Starr says about Hashi's if anything. I don't think the 90% figure Dr. K[harrazian] quotes is true from what I've seen. Maybe it is for people whose blood tests are mainstream wonky, but now I fully believe that blood tests only capture a small percentage of hypoT's.

Dr. Kharrazian kind of turned me off ultimately. I respect the idea of detox. Starr does address the idea of detoxing helping mito function in his book. But like Price's research, the traditional research on thyroid function is really speaking to me like a simple elegant solution for right now. Like what Shannon proposed, get the hormone if you are suffering real symptoms, then work on the nutrient/mito issues while your body is working better in the meantime.

Dr. K seems like the new kid on the block, no one else is corroborating his protocols. He could be completely right as his way is the way to correct mito issues and enable your body's thyroid hormones to get through to the cells.... but I started this journey for DS and I can't do Dr K with him.

My impression that swingy TSH due to Hashi's was like 1 and then 8. Those are pretty low TSH's though, that's not necessarily a good thing. I thought under 1 was a real problem?

I was just reading about lupus being treated with thyroid hormone.

Welcome to the club [responding to somebody with mucin arms and/or eyebrows or low body temps or something like that! my brain is fried I hope I'm not messing up these quotes!!!]. I really do think this is the key to the allergy kingdom.

Yes that [eyebrow] sign is named after another pioneer in thyroid treatment, Eugene Hertoghe. There is now 4 generations of his family of endocrinologists and thyroid researchers in Belgium who practice the Broda Barnes way.

I have little thinning in outer edge but not much. I used to have bushy beetle brows until I beat them into perfect 1950's arched submission. Hmmmm, my mother has a lot of thinning. She doesn't have the rest of the hypoT look though. She said her temps are low but not sure if she'd ever go rogue medically.

Can be [whether children can have myexdema=mucin accumulation]. DS doesn't have it but could have had it as a butterball baby. There is a pic in Starr's book of an ASD kid from current day that looks a lot like DS used to with really chubby cheeks.

The absence of mucin doesn't rule out hypoT but the presence of it confirms it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
oops forgot the rest of it responding to chlobo's question....

Broda Barnes Foundation doctors probably px all forms of desiccated thyroid, either Armour, or other brands, or specially compounded.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Not every person needs to have every symptom, that [losing outer third of eyebrow or mucin arms forgot which someone said they or their children didn't have, well adults are usually only ones with eyebrow loss] seems to be a secondary one.

Most definitely [that children can be hypoT]. As I've posted I'm sure my DS is based on his sx: cold intolerance, low body temps, allergy/digestive issues, respiratory issues, chemical sensitivity and slow growth. And his Free T3 is below normal lab range so something is clearly wrong.

The older medical literature on children is mostly focused on really severe hypothyroidism where the child looks, well, malformed. I think most of us mamas here with hypoT symptoms are dealing with children where there is only a lesser degree of impairment not 100% thyroid malfunction. Which would make sense if you think the idea of thyroid cellular resistance makes sense.

There is a lot of discussion in Starr's book about how this resistance is usually passed on from the mother and he gave a genetic explanation why involving the mitochondria I believe. WhoMe's probably reading that right now and will pipe up.







When he diagnosed children he always looked at the mother and the connection was clear.

As I wrote above there is a short case study in Starr's book about a young child from modern day (I think 4yo) with ASD and mucin and digestive issues and I forget what else (book went back to library). He looks healthy but obviously was not. I wouldn't be surprised at a major thyroid resistant - ASD connection right now. There are a few studies on frank low thyroid blood values and ASD.

Barnes theorized that 50% of the US population is hypothyroid which is an interesting story based on research from the past on infectious disease deaths that weed out the hypoT's. Now we have a population that has been kept alive through modern medicine/antibiotics to reproduce and pass on our hypoT genes. What if this is the allergy/intolerance connection we all share?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Wow about the eyebrows! I've got really perfect eyebrows. (I get comments.)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
I confirmed DH has mucin arms. I remember something seemed just a bit off with his thyroid bloodwork a few years ago, not to the point of treatment and not really symptomatically, at least I think/hope he'll feel better once we tweak other stuff--ooh, cool beans, we were talking last week and I brought up having a phone consult with Elisabeth and he was interested and he filled out the intake form and is emailing to set up an appointment.







that he has the same type of results as many in this forum have had with themselves and their kids.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
I wouldn't interpret it to mean that infectious diseases were weeding out hypoT people so much as people with hypoT were more susceptible, I'd say with nutritional issues playing a large role, and now with the additional stressors of weird-ass chemical exposures and poor nutrients as common things, this is the way these people manifest those weaknesses first. If even DH has mucin arms, and he's got a very, very different set of genetic strengths and weaknesses than I do, then I'd say this, like type 2 diabetes is a common manifestation of crappy diet. I don't think that people who develop type 2 should've been weeded out at any point, they are just extra susceptible to this incredibly poor diet we've adopted.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes, infectious disease especially of the respiratory kind weeded out the more susceptible hypoT people, that's what I meant to say at least. There's entire research on this based on Graz, Austria autopsies and studies of deaths from influenza and TB reducing hypoT people in Starr's book.

Not that additional stressors and poor diet aren't happening for sure .... causing the genetic and functional mito issues? Barnes mentions how the Hunza are remarkably resistant to TB and have great endocrine systems. I have no doubt traditional nutrition produces a body with a great endocrine system. However, it's certainly not fixing broken ones in this house right now.

Edit: and my hope is that the ASD/thyroid connection would include a knowledge of thyroid cellular resistance and the mito connection. When I was on those groups they didn't, normal thyroid blood tests were seen as proof you don't have a thyroid issue.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 

ACK. Umm... does gaining 90 pounds and having a 10.3# baby count? [as a HypoT symptom, and yes they certainly do]







And I have REALLY loose ligaments. [another clear sign from traditional medical research] When I did physical therapy (for almost a year) after a car accident, they had a really hard time getting my muscles to stretch out, because I was "too flexible." I always thought that was weird because flexible was a good thing, right? But now it makes sense to me, and I've noticed it a lot more since I started paying attention. When I do stretches and stuff, it never stretches/pulls/whatever in the place where it's supposed to, no matter how far I stretch.

Yeah. Definitely going to have the midwife take more blood next week for thyroid stuff. What all do I need to check? I know TSH, free T-3, free T-4, reverse T-3, reverse T-4, ..... what else?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 

Jane, forgot to quote. More and more I am thinking that fixing this stuff sometimes takes a lot more than nutrients and stuff to get metals (or whatever your (eta: "your" in the more general sense, not specifically you, Jane) issue is) fixed. I wonder how much homeopathy can do? I'm sure it's a case-by-case basis, but it seems to fix things in funky efficiency/utilization-type ways.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
I have the Starr book on order, but it sounds like the issue isn't an underproducing thyroid, but rather a problem getting the thyroid hormones where they need to go and doing what they need to do? I know adrenal is a piece of that, and there are some mutations in the Yasko stuff that cause issues there. Also several mutations that can impact mitochondrial function. As soon as I get and read the Starr book, I'll see if I can piece that together with Yasko.

Shannon, you mentioned cell membrane stuff, what's up with that? Cell membrane fluidity is a huge deal for Yasko stuff, particularly for people with ACAT and VDR-Fok mutations. If you don't digest/metabolize fats well, your cell membranes can get "stiff" from lacking fat molecules. If that sounds relevant, I'll go dig up the list of "fluid membrane" nutrients. Eggs are killer high in a good number of them... DS tests well for mito type markers, and I think pastured eggs are a good chunk of the reason why.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Starr is taking specific mito issues, that present with hypo symptoms, and *defining* that as hypo type 2. So it's completely separate to hashi's, another issue altogether.

Betcha THAT'S why I felt better almost as soon as I got pg again [men don't have as many thyroid problems b/c of their high testosterone] - ds is a BOY!









Yeah, both dd and ds are similar to me [having mucin arms], though the amount I'm pinching is smaller. They definitely don't have the loose skin feel that dh does.

Starr's book has a bunch of stuff about infants and kids and hypo. So yeah, most def.

I went and looked at dd's baby pics and compared them to the ones in the book. Big fat oops. Talk about mama guilt! Yeah, she's absolutely positively got the 'look'.

How this is passed on through mom:
The mitochondria in our cells have their own DNA. They're like their own little entity. Almost like their own little bacteria living in our cells. When a cell multiplies and divides, the mitochondria do the same. When a sperm fertilizes an egg, it sticks its DNA in the nucleus, but the egg supplies the rest of the cell body, including the mitochondria. So everyone has their mother's mitochondrial DNA. They even use it to track genealogy.

Now, the interesting stuff from the mito conference that Susan Owens posted to her groups talks about the mitochondria evolving in your body, depending on what stresses you put or don't put on it. Its like there's a whole world in there, with mutations and natural selection and everything. And the mitochondria in one part of your body can (and does) evolve to look different than in another part, due to the different use. Remember, they all originated from that one egg. Mind blowing. Makes me want to read Madeleine L'Engle again! But first get a major workout in









Kind of OT, but this reminded me, when I was reading vitaminK a couple years ago, she was moving kids from lugols to potassium iodide (I think) because of something to do with one causing more thyroid problems. Like the iodide pushed T4->T3 but the iodine did the opposite? One of many things on my list to go back and read!

That's the thing with this mito/type 2 stuff. It's about the symptoms, not the tests. There is a chapter on lab tests, but I haven't digested it yet.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The basic idea is that the number and size of mitochondria in your cells will determine your metabolism, and thyroid hormone is a/the major controller of that. Exercise appears to be another; and this is in contrast to the actual enzymes of krebs cycle and stuff. The pathways may be working perfectly (my guess: normal enzymes and normal metabolites and such), but if you only have a teeny tiny trail, it's not going to do you much good when what you need is a highway.

Somehow, and this is where I'm still hazy and want to read it all again, you can get in a rut to where you can't get the thyroid signal to the mitochondria, and so you don't produce enough hormone. Or something.

There are thyroid receptors both inside and outside the cell, and iirc, thyroid is a fat soluble hormone, which means it *should* be able to pass straight through the membrane.

Am I weird that it makes me smile that the issue of how does thyroid interact with mitochondria and your metabolism was one of my big questions when I was learning about arsenic in my guinea pig thread?










Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Couple thyroid related things from the Yasko forums... She often sees thyroid issues as a result of chronic gut bacteria (and depleted BH4 tends to go along with that, along with low dopamine & serotonin). Several moms on the forum with thyroid issues weaned off prescriptions by focusing on methylation (which includes Kreb's cycle & mito stuff in the Yasko world) and membrane fluidity. High estrogen can impair thyroid hormone production. Think that's all I found so far.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
One last thing to get off my head - Starr mentions that increasing thyroid hormone can increase need for nutrients. And that would make sense, as your body ramps up, it would need the tools to do so.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I'm wondering if my kids might have hypo issues. Just because of the whole growth thing. However, I think DD has multiple problems. I'm pretty convinced she has sensory integration issues. Especially around the social aspects. It's making me very sad right now b/c its really impacting her ability to have friends.

Did anyone else notice in Starr's book how thyroid treatment was conducive to getting married? Seems all the women treated went on to get married right away.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Yup









On the thyroid topic, your thyroid totally affects how you use nutrients, and I've seen a lot of connections between sensory stuff and nutrients. So there's the possibility that the multiple issues are just multiple manifestations.

Is it too late for a thyroid thread?








*
One part I want to examine is causes, effects, and nasty cycles. Like if low thyroid causes you to accumulate metals, and then those metals keep you low. And how this all relates to my pancreas. And I'm willing to bet that lack of exercise is as major a contributor as 'bad genes' not getting weeded out due to modern medicine. But then there's that cycle again, not enough exercise -> not enough energy to exercise.
[WhoMe, let's address this here in this thread.]*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Tests here http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/
but also do the basal body test.

Proper method for BBT:
- shake down thermometer and put it beside your bed.
- do not eat or exercise or have an argument with your significant other for 12 hours beforehand.
- right when you wake up take temp under arm, do not move, even to pee you are going to have to hold it. Don't drink or eat.
- the best thermometer to use is not digital but one that looks like mercury, there are special BBT ones.
- place under armpit for 10 minutes, then read temperature.

I was just reading again that the best times for women are the 2nd and 3rd day of their cycle. Otherwise it can fluctuate normally between 97.5 and 98.5 (normal BBT is 97.8 to 98.2) due to ovulation temp rise and such.

Although for those of us in the 96's it really doesn't make much difference!









I hear you totally [to Tanya]. And I admit I need fixing.







Maybe I'm just giving up on the metals and homeopathy for now b/c it's just not available to us for various reasons, I'll admit that too!

When traditional medicine says the thyroid controls detox I certainly want to believe it at this point since so many other things make perfect sense in our situation. I'm feeling like the past 5 years of intensive healing and nutrient loading was our chance and I'm just so done with that approach.

Not that I'm not going to still be a nutritional junkie. Awaiting a new B supplement with salivatory excitement!
http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/Max-Stress-B

Starr said that mito defects can cause the thyroid hormone not to get into the cell, or if it can get in, the cell can't use it. Thus the cells can't signal back to the hypothalamus that it needs MORE thyroid hormone b/c it's not getting very much in the first place. So blood levels stay "normal".








and I think both Broda Barnes *and* Suzanne Somers has called it the beauty hormone!

goitrogens that block iodine and thus block thyroid hormone, so no raw spinach:

http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-...the-cross.html


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
But Dr. K's contention is that *most* hypothyroidism is actually hashi's in disguise. I'm just not sure how to make all this jibe since my tests are mostly normal and they all say that tests don't matter its just symptoms.

Well if I have the symptoms how am I supposed to know if its hypo type 2 vs. hashi's vs. reverset3 disease vs. something else if my tests are all normal?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I'm not kidding. Some of those women looked great in the after pictures. And probably actually ahd some energy to put out.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ASusan* 
I've been following this thread with interest (and dismay). I will have to get my hands on this book, although it's not in any of our libraries or extended library system so Amazon may get a few $ from me.

I'm tall, thin, gained 50+ lbs with DS and he was 8lbs 10oz. I have been super flexible but not in the right places. When the rolfer and PT said I was tight, it didn't make sense, because I've always been able to reach beyond my toes...SO many other pieces of the puzzle fit for me.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The second half of the book talks about when you don't have antibodies, though. I want to go through and read that one again now, its on the shelf!

Part of it, though, is does it matter? Isn't treatment mostly the same (hormones) whether it's autoimmune or type 2 or what? There's the extra autoimmune support stuff, but that seems like good stuff to be doing anyway...

I figure all this nutrient loading is necessary - with increased mito action, nutrient requirements increase, and so any deficiencies will be exacerbated. It's all groundwork









Okay, he's saying that bum DNA means we need extra hormone to get the same signal across. He talks about new DNA damage, but not evolution. And talks about how for some people, it might not be the mitochondria, but the receptors. I want to take a look at other things that are necessary for DNA transcription (vits A and D, perhaps) and that angle. My numbers are off just enough (still within range) to think that I could still make use of some nutritional stuff, especially A. And iodine. And selenium. And sodium and potassium and...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
So if you have blocked receptors that is the theory of the reverse T3 people, right? That the reverse T3 is blocking the receptors and you need to get rid of it at the receptors so that the T3 can get in there instead.

What does he say you should do for blocked receptors?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
My conclusion is that "most CONVENTIONALLY DIAGNOSED hypoT's with out of range blood tests" could be mostly Hashi's. I don't think it applies to the HypoType2 people.

Well reverse T3 is shown on blood tests (and btw I think I screwed up your ratio numbers b/c it was dl vs. ml wasn't it?)

And it seems to me that traditional thyroid treatment with natural hormones gets by all that. It seems to me that Broda Barnes and Mark Starr et al would have known if they had a problem treating patients with hypoT sx.

Actually Starr did say that he saw some people who didn't tolerate thyroid hormone because "they were too toxic". And he does mention some need for adrenal support. And companion nutrients (selenium, zinc, iron, mag. the usual suspects)... so it seems to me that whatever the specialized diagnosis of the day these are the ways around it.








put out and keep house!!

[to ASusan's post I think]I went through the stages of grief about this I think in the past few months. Esp. with respect to DS. Now I'm like.... _bring on the hormones baby!_

Yes, you are right... I meant it in the way of thinking "if I could just find the right combo of nutrients DS and I will _finally heal_ all these issues". I will still be nutrient loading big time, but my expectations have changed ykwim?

Totally cool. I've been on the acai bandwagon lately too. It might be doing something. But it hasn't turned me into a "_ready to put out and clean the house every day hot tamale_" yet.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Anyone have/read this b12 book?
http://www.amazon.com/Could-Be-B12-E...4757810&sr=8-2

it's rec'd by Starr, but just as a 'must read' no other details...
eta: apparently there's a new version coming out in march. wishing I could find some of these books at the libraries here!

Yay for teeth breaking through and long naps







So far I can blame ds's bigness on my thyroid. Maybe the early teething too?










Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
!So went for my physical today. Got my thyroid numbers. All they checked was:TSH 8.71 (ref range 0.27-4.5)FREE T4 0.83 (ref range 0.93-1.70)Want to see my last few years, to check the way it's been moving?So the doctor had never heard of the Bio-Throid I found. They checked with local pharmacies and no one has ever heard of it. He said if I got the info for him, he'd do whatever it took to get it for me. Or if I could find another lactose/corn free, he'd order that too. That it wasn't urgent, so he could wait a week or so while I figured it out. Anybody know of any hypoallergenic ones?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
So clearly those thyroid numbers aren't ok, glad you've got something clear-cut.

And I'm ignoring low thyroid stuff that could be involved (strangely, although I've been overweight, and am again, it doesn't seem to track much with thyroid stuff). lalalalalalalalala


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Okay, I read the original thread but Jane, I'd like your opinion (or I missed it earlier). When BBT testing isn't that convenient (say with kids), what are your thoughts, from your reading, on daytime temps, a la Dr. Rind?

I'm going to check all of us on a couple more occasions, at 5-6pm-ish today, DS and DD were 97.9 and 98.0 respectively, I was 98.0, and DH was 98.5. DH was my control because I wanted to see if my thermometer had taken a fall and now had a huge offset. Nope. Need to keep checking several more days, and I may try Dr. Rind's 3x/day, every 3 hours approach, to see variability, but I was surprised at the kids' numbers. Why? Cause I have my head in the sand.









http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph

Also, totally different question for all takers. Anyone got links to a BBT thermometer? Last time I tried to buy a new thermometer locally, I couldn't find one that was more accurate than +/- 0.2 F which is really not good enough. Tried the local HFS, a few pharmacies, just struck out. I have a digital BBT thermometer now, accurate to +/- 0.1 F, and I _think_ it's been accurate but with the moves and a few falls, I sometimes wonder.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Duuuuude... you officially have Hypothyroidism Type 1!

It would be very interesting to see if your back pain improves with treatment. And other sx if you are willing to type them all out. I don't know if you want to do that here or in the new thread I started?

Just please promise me that you will treat to symptoms and not lab tests?









I think you would have to go with specially compounded desiccated thyroid from a compounding pharmacy. ERFA from Canada has least ingredients but it has corn.

Now you can be our first guinea pig and maybe not be corn sensitive after a while on thyroid hormone wouldn't THAT be awesome!?

Wait did they check your antibodies?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
Yeah, surgery is because the Tamoxifen bombed. I'm still feeling the effects. Today I'm getting all sorts of hot flashes (so not looking forward to menopause) and my back is absolutely a wreck. Maxed out on my anti-inflammatories and as much Mg as I can stand and taking Advil max dose. And had DD2 rub Arnica all over my back. And cell salts. Nothing is helping. Ugh. I can take the thyroid discussion over to the other thread.

The hot flashes can also be indicative of thyroid impairment, there is mention of it in Starr's book and talks by Broda Barnes. Also the back pain too. I really hope these do improve for you!









Antibodies?


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

The regular doctor is the one that is treating me, and he'll treat to numbers, not symptoms. However, the osteopath wanted a copy of the labs, so if my regular doctor stops treating me, I wouldn't be surprised if the osteo still was okay with treating to symptoms. So hopefully, I'll get some healing. Hmmm... okay so my blood test was Wednesday and I started Tamoxifen that night, so I didn't want to start on the thyroid meds right away (on Thursday when they called with the results), so is my progressively worse back probably thyroid? That would be interesting, if it started getting better, since the endo said that my back issues couldn't be thyroid. The doctor did not test antibodies, because he said "it doesn't matter whether it's Hashis or not because the treatment is the same, and I only test if it matters for treatment". So should I ask for the Hashi test anyway? Or is it academic? I was tested in 2007 for Hashis and it was negative, but are you saying it could start at any time? I didn't get to the library today.... I need to get the Starr book. I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc. So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
Okay, I read the original thread but Jane, I'd like your opinion (or I missed it earlier). When BBT testing isn't that convenient (say with kids), what are your thoughts, from your reading, on daytime temps, a la Dr. Rind?

I'm going to check all of us on a couple more occasions, at 5-6pm-ish today, DS and DD were 97.9 and 98.0 respectively, I was 98.0, and DH was 98.5. DH was my control because I wanted to see if my thermometer had taken a fall and now had a huge offset. Nope. Need to keep checking several more days, and I may try Dr. Rind's 3x/day, every 3 hours approach, to see variability, but I was surprised at the kids' numbers. Why? Cause I have my head in the sand.









http://www.drrind.com/therapies/meta...perature-graph









and you have family history of type 1 too right? Like we do. That makes it more likely that thyroid is your achilles heel. Like I said above, I honestly had to go through a grieving process with this with respect to DS. That is why I got a wee bit obsessed as we saw on this board, in order to process it. Now I'm excited that this could be the connection I've been searching for all these years.

All in it's own time dear mama.

My DS was fine with BBT, he was warned ahead of time. But I think daytime temps are also good. It seems that other holistic thyroid doctors mention them besides Rind.

I also notice with DS that now that the weather changed, and not really all _that_ cold here in MA! he is so temperature sensitive. He gets cold really quickly (like I do), cold hands/feet/ears, so that's another easy thing to watch for.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
I need to get the Starr book. I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc. So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?

yup, yup and yup.

I'm still trying to figure out what my kid hypo sx were, cause I'm certain they're there but it's not obvious what they were.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
so is my progressively worse back probably thyroid? That would be interesting, if it started getting better, since the endo said that my back issues couldn't be thyroid. The doctor did not test antibodies, because he said "it doesn't matter whether it's Hashis or not because the treatment is the same, and I only test if it matters for treatment". So should I ask for the Hashi test anyway? Or is it academic? I was tested in 2007 for Hashis and it was negative, but are you saying it could start at any time?

Yes, Hashi's could start anytime.

Yes, treatment is usually the same (unless you go the way of this chiro www.thyroidbook.com) however, if it were me, I'd want to know that I had an autoimmune illness, I might approach it differently from a supplement standpoint. And be more vigilant about testing antibodies to make sure they are suppressed.

Also risk of children might be higher to get it? Are you all gluten free?

The Starr book talks about back pain and HypoT ... I'm not surprised that a conventional endo isn't aware.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
I mean, apparently I've had hypo symptoms for years. Let's see, would I technically be a hypo child since even as a child I never had a fever and my temp was always in the 97s and so the school nurse would never send me home because I wasn't really "sick"? I've always had dry skin, brittle hair/nails, etc.

Wow, yes indeedy!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
So should all my kids be tested? Or are they going to show normal as well?

Not sure, I would. After all my DS blood tests are worse than mine! (his free T3 is below normal range.) And his health is much worse than mine as a child. I really think HypoT Type 2 is the root cause of all these allergies/intolerances. And so I would also track your children's symptoms and BBT's.

I was very healthy as a child, just hay fever starting at puberty. Then the digestive and bladder/ interstitial cystitis major problems starting in my 30's. Mild constipation throughout life. Not really liking to be active, slept a lot. Tended to be slightly overweight. Needed glasses at age 7, indication of low vitamin A and could be thyroid related (retinol is not converted from beta carotene very well in hypoT people).


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## dannic (Jun 14, 2005)

Okay, so what if I had abnormal numbers last summer and treating with natural thyroid hormone made things way super worse? And iodoral gave me massive migraines? What about treating adrenals first? I got off all the thyroid stuff, treated my adrenals, and much of the thyroid symptoms went away...I'm not perfect yet, tho...


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Dr. Rind recs a certain brand of thermometer doesn't he?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 







You serial poster, you! Thanks for organizing all that, now we'll be able to discuss it clearer and go back when, say, our brains aren't all exhausted and we aren't distracted.









eta: as is buried in those many quotes, for me, personally, hair loss seems to be very iodine related. It was the first nutrient I supp'd after I started having blatant hypothyroid symptoms and the one thing it did very well was stop my hair loss. And lately, say in the past 2 weeks, my hair's started falling out again and I realized that I have totally slacked on my Iodoral. I've gotten generally worn down too, but, well, I ordered more Iodoral since we are all but out and I'll report back within a week or two to say whether that seems to be still my biggest on/off switch.

Do I win anything for biggest posts ever???









Thanks for reminding me about iodine, I should add my iodine thread here:

THE Iodine Thread
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1091794

I haven't been able to supplement more than a few grams of I, not sure why, the salt detox doesn't clear the horrible fatigue that happens for me. I'm supplementing mag and B vits and a gazillion other things but apparently my detox pathways don't want to work (if that's what's going on with the iodine reactions).

I keep meaning to try Nascent iodine since Moneca said she loved it a short while ago.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Wow. just wow. I didn't get tested, but I had started to suspect thyroid issues when I came across adrenal fatigue/insufficiency and it seems to describe my symptoms better so I thought I'd throw that in there.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I haven't been able to supplement more than a few grams of I, not sure why, the salt detox doesn't clear the horrible fatigue that happens for me. I'm supplementing mag and B vits and a gazillion other things but apparently my detox pathways don't want to work (if that's what's going on with the iodine reactions).

Hmm... Iodine and vit A are both critical for thyroid hormones. There's some island where the prevalence of goiter relates more to vit A status than iodine status. When I get vit A (CLO or liver) I get awful fatigue a day or two later. K2 and potassium both seem to help a LOT. Up for an experiment?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I'm still not sure what to think about this. I definitely think I have hypoT symptoms now but I wouldn't say that I've had them all my life. Could they have been there but just not a problem. I used to be radiantly healthy, except for digestive issues that turned out to be lactose intolerance. I used to be very athletic and radiantly healthy. Was it just hiding?

Also, my parents genes are a cesspool but other than my mother having her thyroid removed b/c it had a tumor in it I haven't heard of any other familial thyroid issues.


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## Purple Sage (Apr 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Dr. Lowe's website has good advice for self treater that I can remember but I cannot find the page I was thinking of right now. Lots of info in many places though
http://www.drlowe.com/index.htm

Also read about ferritin, I have seen many mentions that it needs to be above 70 to start preventing hair loss. Is that your only symptom? It could be nutritional if so. GLA (in borage or evening primrose oil) a capsule with every meal can be helpful too.

You are most welcome on the chat thread or you can post your own "About Me" thread in Allergies.









Eta: my blood tests were not "normal" ... Just wanted to clarify since I just realized the title of this thread...uh yeah brain fog









Thanks for the link...I'm going to be spending way too much time researching now.









The hair loss isn't the only symptom - it's just the one that's been really bothering me lately because it's so severe. I also have the mucin arms (and elsewhere), a small goiter, cold hands and feet, muscle aches (this is the other symptom that bothers me the most), brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, and I could go on...

I started taking iron (Solgar's Gentle Iron), magnesium citrate, vitamin D, and eating two Brazil nuts a day, plus trying to eat beef liver at least once a week. I know I need to go completely gluten free for a significant period of time to see if that will help, but I just haven't done it yet.









Back to







and thank you so much for sharing all of this information!


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Yup, longest thread ever and no one else has started posting yet, LOL!!

My big question is (waiting for the Starr book, haven't read it yet - he needs a Kindle version!!), if hypoT 2 is from cells not responding correctly to thyroid, why is the answer more thyroid hormone? (I get that will flood the system and get a response) - but how do you address the actual issue, which is improving response to thyroid hormones?

My DS has a lot of genetics that create clogs like this, and there are ways to use nutrients to improve and/or end run around a lot of those issues. What are the nutrients here that would do that?

Also, based on mucin test, I have one normal child (DD), one hypo child (DS). If it's my mitochondria they both have, what other factors are in play here?


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Wasn't there something about people increasing thyroid function by optimizing methylation? Is it possible that that's why iodine has a deleterious effect on some people (possibly including Hashi's)?

Also, having thyroid antibodies increases your risk factors for other autoimmune conditions, and confirms that you should indeed remain gluten free. Additionally, having thyroglobulin antibodies (Tgab) increases the likelihood that thyroid nodules will become cancerous. As well, there has been a noted correlation between breast cancer and thyroid abnormalities involving antibodies.
So, yes, there IS a reason to know what "type" of hypoT you are treating.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Yup, longest thread ever and no one else has started posting yet, LOL!!

My big question is (waiting for the Starr book, haven't read it yet - he needs a Kindle version!!), if hypoT 2 is from cells not responding correctly to thyroid, why is the answer more thyroid hormone? (I get that will flood the system and get a response) - but how do you address the actual issue, which is improving response to thyroid hormones?

My DS has a lot of genetics that create clogs like this, and there are ways to use nutrients to improve and/or end run around a lot of those issues. What are the nutrients here that would do that?

Also, based on mucin test, I have one normal child (DD), one hypo child (DS). If it's my mitochondria they both have, what other factors are in play here?

This is what's been playing in my head.

What does the thyroid *do*? There are receptors in the nucleus, which trigger DNA transcription aka protein synthesis aka manufacturing enzymes. And there are receptors to stimulate the mitochondria to grow, aka make more ATP and more Na/K pumps.

Where do the issues come from?
If you don't have enough thyroid hormone in the first place, clearly there's a problem.
If you have enough, but it can't get to the receptors due to bum genetics (there are lots of SNPs on the thyroid receptor gene) and/or the receptors being blocked (by T4?), that's a problem.
If you have the wrong ratios (T3 is way more active than T4) cause, say, you're not converting T4 to T3 (selenium deficiency, right?) then that's a problem.
If you have all good lab tests (not lab standards, the tighter ranges we talk about here) but still have symptoms, then Starr is saying that your issue lies in the mitochondria. According to him, you have 'faulty' mitochondrial DNA, due to generations of modern medicine not weeding the bad stuff out. In that case, normal amounts of hormone just don't cut it and you need more hormone than normal to feel normal.
And then there's toxicities. I haven't read that part yet, but for starters, mercury makes you hang on to arsenic and arsenic depletes selenium.
And there are the endocrine disruptors. I haven't read that part much either, about how the different hormones interact.
Finally, your mitochondrial DNA changes over the course of your life. It's conceivable (though probably doubtful for most) that each kid did get a different set of DNA. It's also possible that it's evolving differently for each as they grow. I'm guessing that's the last angle to look at though









So now we're back to what's the root cause.

For me, I'm thinking there's lots of different deficiencies going on, vit A, iodine, selenium... And that it wasn't a big issue pre-dd, but as she nursed I got more and more depleted to the point that I started crashing with mucin arms. I definitely *did* have issues pre-dd, given my mom's history and what dd looked like as a newborn. (and what I looked like as a newborn) The symptoms are just changing now.

So Starr is essentially talking about a mitochondria deficiency and calling it type 2, because thyroid hormone corrects the deficiency. His book is most helpful to me at this point by pointing out a whole 'nother list of hypo symptoms, and talking about it from this different angle is letting me put a bigger thyroid picture together. HIS explanation is that it's primarily bad mtDNA (or toxicities), and so from the DNA standpoint, the long term extra hormone makes sense. But from Susan Owen's notes from the mito conference she went to a few months ago, the way to fix faulty mtDNA is to exercise.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Just reading around on the Starr website (and amazon just delivered my book) - it doesn't seem like he goes much past the nutrients to optimize thyroid hormone formation & conversion to active forms. Am I missing something, or does he have stuff on how you improve cellular uptake & utilization?

This seems kind of similar to my DS' issue with magnesium - I could flood his body with magnesium (and did), and he still had low mag symptoms. P5P helped with cellular uptake, getting rid of antimony addressed the primary factor interfering with magnesium. Now I don't have to flood him with magnesium any more, a reasonable dose works.

So I'm thinking - taking thyroid meds is like flooding my son with mag - fine for the short term, but how do you address the uptake & use issues so you don't have to keep up the hormone flood? (I personally don't like "flooding" long term - I have to imagine SOME cells in the body won't be happy about that).

Off to read the book


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Just reading around on the Starr website (and amazon just delivered my book) - it doesn't seem like he goes much past the nutrients to optimize thyroid hormone formation & conversion to active forms. Am I missing something, or does he have stuff on how you improve cellular uptake & utilization?

This seems kind of similar to my DS' issue with magnesium - I could flood his body with magnesium (and did), and he still had low mag symptoms. P5P helped with cellular uptake, getting rid of antimony addressed the primary factor interfering with magnesium. Now I don't have to flood him with magnesium any more, a reasonable dose works.

So I'm thinking - taking thyroid meds is like flooding my son with mag - fine for the short term, but how do you address the uptake & use issues so you don't have to keep up the hormone flood? (I personally don't like "flooding" long term - I have to imagine SOME cells in the body won't be happy about that).

Off to read the book









Short answer, for your ds: figure out the toxicities/deficiencies and clear them out.

Yeah, he seems to like his hormones and not worry about the rest. He found a solution that works. Like I said, what I'm getting out of the book is diagnosis more than treatment. Still totally valuable.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Short answer, for your ds: figure out the toxicities/deficiencies and clear them out.

Yeah, he seems to like his hormones and not worry about the rest. He found a solution that works. Like I said, what I'm getting out of the book is diagnosis more than treatment. Still totally valuable.

Right. If it can be done for methylation, surely it can be done for thyroid function







. I'll read to understand the science better, then maybe some of the Yasko stuff will apply.

ETA: Reading the book now. I think he may be right about type 2 hypothyroid - but boy, am I underwhelmed by his "it's been around since the dawn of man and we've screwed up natural selection so now all those people survive" theories. (My grad work is in human evolutionary ecology). Lots of logical fallacies (i.e. we discovered Egyptian mummies show signs of arthritis, and since arthritis and hypothyroid are related, hypothyroid must have been around then too).


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Right. If it can be done for methylation, surely it can be done for thyroid function







. I'll read to understand the science better, then maybe some of the Yasko stuff will apply.

ETA: Reading the book now. I think he may be right about type 2 hypothyroid - but boy, am I underwhelmed by his "it's been around since the dawn of man and we've screwed up natural selection so now all those people survive" theories. (My grad work is in human evolutionary ecology). Lots of logical fallacies (i.e. we discovered Egyptian mummies show signs of arthritis, and since arthritis and hypothyroid are related, hypothyroid must have been around then too).

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that explanation either. Have you heard about the Egyptians and how much gluten they ate?

Dr K has another explanation for thyroid resistance. I forget if it's adrenal or insulin resistance or what. Something more likely than DNA, for sure.

Hmm, I wonder if epigenetics fits in?

OH. Another connection... Pottenger's cats that degenerated on the cooked (low taurine) diet? The diagnosis was hypoT. And they regenerated after a couple of generations. FWIW.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Finished more of the book now. I think his mitochondrial DNA stuff and progressively worse inheritance is full of hooey, mostly. More on that tomorrow. I think he has the right issue, wrong mechanism.

A couple small points - DNA repair is a key function of methylation. Betcha this hypo2 stuff is a lot more common in people with MTHF and MTRR mutations.

He totally glosses over how thyroid hormones get into cells. If DNA is faulty, in most cases, just adding more hormone isn't going to fix everything. I think this sounds like a classic cell permeability issue (increase outside concentration, more gets in). I need to learn more about how the thyroid hormones get into cells - any idea how that works, Shannon?


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
He totally glosses over how thyroid hormones get into cells. If DNA is faulty, in most cases, just adding more hormone isn't going to fix everything. I think this sounds like a classic cell permeability issue (increase outside concentration, more gets in). I need to learn more about how the thyroid hormones get into cells - any idea how that works, Shannon?

I'd need to double check books, but I'm pretty sure the thyroid hormones are fat soluble, so they can just pass through the membranes. There's the issue of thyroid binding globulin in the bloodstream, and the issue of the thyroid receptors in the cells.

Do you have dr k's book? He goes into more of the root cause details, and breaks it down more.

And yeah, he's (Starr) just flooding with hormone, as far as I can tell. I really want you (and Jane!) to read the Susan Owens post! It actually does indicate that current mito research says that the DNA really is a big factor.


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Where do I find the Susan Owens post?

OK, thinking through mechanisms now.

T4 needs to get into cells. That's apparently via both passive & active transport. Passive "leaks" across, and that only requires good membrane fluidity (which can be issues for some people, particularly ACAT/fat digestion & metabolism issues). Active transport goes against the concentration gradient, and that requires help. Taking a guess that for some people, the active transport breaks down, so they are reliant more on just the passive transport. Taking thyroid hormone would help in that case (even if tests are normal) because it would increase the blood concentration of hormone, which would increase passive transport - amount "leaking" into cells).

An abstract I'm using to chase down more info on the transporters:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15727804 So, two basic classes of transporters.

The first one, NTCP, can be kicked into high gear by cAMP, says here. Likely does it both by increasing transport rates (playing with ions) and translocating proteins (sticking more of the transporter proteins in the cell membrane). So hypothesis might be that cAMP is low, so not as many transporter channels in cell membranes. Low cAMP is also implicated in ADHD/autism/Alzheimer's (prefrontal cortex higher order thinking stuff). So need to learn more about that. cAMP is made from ATP - so if mitochondria don't produce enough ATP, one consequence might be less thyroid hormone getting in (which decreases ATP production even further). Yasko has stuff on increasing ATP, must go read. I'm also giving DS straight ATP (for a methylation cycle step) - maybe that would be an interesting supp for this kind of hypothyroid?

Another line of thought that interests me here - these channels depend on sodium concentrations. ACE++ mutations and adrenal fatigue both result in changes to sodium retention. Wondering if early stage adrenal issues result in slowdowns of these sodium dependent transporter channels, so less thyroid hormone gets in... Shannon, any idea if it is na+ concentration inside or outside of the cells that matters for triggering this gate? And would higher concentrations slow down or speed up the gate?

Second kind of transporters, OATP class, example MCT8. Serious defects in MCT8 can cause low muscle tone and no speech. Shannon, can you see this gene in your 23andme test?

Another good overview http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/0...bst0330228.htm

Then T4 has to be converted to T3 in cells - if this isn't working well enough, does that show up on the standard thyroid test? So for those of us with "normal" tests, probably not the problem.

Then T3 needs to bind to receptor sites. This could be where the mitochondrial damage kicks in. DNA repair is a key function of methylation, so guessing that well functioning methylation would help out quite a bit here. Might also be genetic mutations for receptor sites that are hereditary (which makes more sense to me as a mechanism for "hereditary" hypothyroidism than what Starr is proposing)


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 

For me, I'm thinking there's lots of different deficiencies going on, vit A, iodine, selenium... And that it wasn't a big issue pre-dd, but as she nursed I got more and more depleted to the point that I started crashing with mucin arms. I definitely *did* have issues pre-dd, given my mom's history and what dd looked like as a newborn. (and what I looked like as a newborn) The symptoms are just changing now.

This is me. I did not have a lot of symptoms but since Adam was born, actually in the last year or so, I"ve developed mucin arms.

So Starr is essentially talking about a mitochondria deficiency and calling it type 2, because thyroid hormone corrects the deficiency. His book is most helpful to me at this point by pointing out a whole 'nother list of hypo symptoms, and talking about it from this different angle is letting me put a bigger thyroid picture together. HIS explanation is that it's primarily bad mDNA (or toxicities), and so from the DNA standpoint, the long term extra hormone makes sense. But from Susan Owen's notes from the mito conference she went to a few months ago, the way to fix faulty mDNA is to exercise.

I don't buy the exercise to fix faulty mDNA. I just don't. First off, I'm too tired to exercise. Second, when I do exercise even though I'm tired it just makes me feel worse to the point of crashing. So there has to be something else to fix it besides exercise. But hey, if it works for you then I guess go for it.

See, this is why I don't know where to turn. Although I was coming around to Starr's POV last night when I realized that my mom has osteoprosis and is shrinking, which would be consistent with what he says about hypothyroidism. And thus if she has it, its possible she passed it on to me.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

The post is on sulfurstories and trying low oxalates, or I can pm it. I'll see if I can post it here, that would be helpful!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I don't buy the exercise to fix faulty mDNA. I just don't. First off, I'm too tired to exercise. Second, when I do exercise even though I'm tired it just makes me feel worse to the point of crashing. So there has to be something else to fix it besides exercise. But hey, if it works for you then I guess go for it.

See, this is why I don't know where to turn. Although I was coming around to Starr's POV last night when I realized that my mom has osteoprosis and is shrinking, which would be consistent with what he says about hypothyroidism. And thus if she has it, its possible she passed it on to me.

Exercise making you crash is a classic adrenal problem.
The two things I've seen now, about how to increase the action of your mitochondria are Starr's thyroid hormones, and the Mitochondria Foundation's exercise. It's possible you're just not ready for that, though - this is probably exactly where supporting the thyroid before your adrenals are in decent shape can just make you crash harder. Starr talks about addressing toxicities. I'd keep going down the path your going, and keep this in mind for a later step, and as a cause of this handful of symptoms so you can stop worrying about them.


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The post is on sulfurstories and trying low oxalates (I'll come back with the link), or I can pm it. I'll see if I can post it here, that would be helpful!

Exercise making you crash is a classic adrenal problem.
The two things I've seen now, about how to increase the action of your mitochondria are Starr's thyroid hormones, and the Mitochondria Foundation's exercise. It's possible you're just not ready for that, though - this is probably exactly where supporting the thyroid before your adrenals are in decent shape can just make you crash harder. Starr talks about addressing toxicities. I'd keep going down the path your going, and keep this in mind for a later step, and as a cause of this handful of symptoms so you can stop worrying about them.

I've been trying to fix my adrenals for a while now and it doesn't seem to be working. And right now I'm just plumb worn out. I need a bandaid.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I've been trying to fix my adrenals for a while now and it doesn't seem to be working. And right now I'm just plumb worn out. I need a bandaid.









I know the feeling








I'd be surprised if you were ready for this bandaid, though. I'd keep focusing on the B12, metals and enzymes for a while. Hey, when you were so sick and ds got to baseline... I wonder if a fast of some sort might actually help you out? Should probably head back to chat or your thread...


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Hmm... Iodine and vit A are both critical for thyroid hormones. There's some island where the prevalence of goiter relates more to vit A status than iodine status. When I get vit A (CLO or liver) I get awful fatigue a day or two later. K2 and potassium both seem to help a LOT. Up for an experiment?









I'm realizing, my hands have been dry and I've been really thirsty like I get after liver. I'm actually really behind on the liver, though. Instead, I've been working on brazil nuts and iodine drops. Is dehydration a common symptom of increasing thyroid hormones??


----------



## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I'm realizing, my hands have been dry and I've been really thirsty like I get after liver. I'm actually really behind on the liver, though. Instead, I've been working on brazil nuts and iodine drops. Is dehydration a common symptom of increasing thyroid hormones??

I think I'm more thirsty when I'm hypo... I seem to recall drinking glass after glass of water when my TSH was 100+ and still being thirsty.
eta: of course, I don't really remember a whole lot from that period of time, and my memories since have been somewhat faulty, so take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Where do I find the Susan Owens post?

OK, thinking through mechanisms now.

T4 needs to get into cells. That's apparently via both passive & active transport. Passive "leaks" across, and that only requires good membrane fluidity (which can be issues for some people, particularly ACAT/fat digestion & metabolism issues). Active transport goes against the concentration gradient, and that requires help. Taking a guess that for some people, the active transport breaks down, so they are reliant more on just the passive transport. Taking thyroid hormone would help in that case (even if tests are normal) because it would increase the blood concentration of hormone, which would increase passive transport - amount "leaking" into cells).

An abstract I'm using to chase down more info on the transporters:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15727804 So, two basic classes of transporters.

The first one, NTCP, can be kicked into high gear by cAMP, says here. Likely does it both by increasing transport rates (playing with ions) and translocating proteins (sticking more of the transporter proteins in the cell membrane). So hypothesis might be that cAMP is low, so not as many transporter channels in cell membranes. Low cAMP is also implicated in ADHD/autism/Alzheimer's (prefrontal cortex higher order thinking stuff). So need to learn more about that. cAMP is made from ATP - so *if mitochondria don't produce enough ATP, one consequence might be less thyroid hormone getting in (which decreases ATP production even further)*. Yasko has stuff on increasing ATP, must go read. I'm also giving DS straight ATP (for a methylation cycle step) - maybe that would be an interesting supp for this kind of hypothyroid?

That's probably where a hormone 'jump start' can also be helpful?

Another line of thought that interests me here - these channels depend on sodium concentrations. ACE++ mutations and adrenal fatigue both result in changes to sodium retention. Wondering if early stage adrenal issues result in slowdowns of these sodium dependent transporter channels, so less thyroid hormone gets in... Shannon, any idea if it is na+ concentration inside or outside of the cells that matters for triggering this gate? And would higher concentrations slow down or speed up the gate?

Thats going to depend on if it's a symporter or antiporter. Symporters move Na+ and the hormone/whatever in the same direction, so increased sodium concentration would increase hormone transportation. Antiporters trade sodium for hormone. I always forget which way sodium and potassium go, which is inside the cells and which is outside. But the transporter might use sodium potassium pumps to work against the normal gradient, too.

Second kind of transporters, OATP class, example MCT8. Serious defects in MCT8 can cause low muscle tone and no speech. Shannon, can you see this gene in your 23andme test?

Of the two genes mentioned, there are 9 SNPs for the first and two for the second. It looks like the first is more associated with goiter and the second with resistance? I'm **** for all of the first ones (no clue which versions are normal) and no history of goiter. I'm hetero for one of the second, which seems to fit better based on labs.

Another good overview http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/0...bst0330228.htm

Then T4 has to be converted to T3 in cells - if this isn't working well enough, does that show up on the standard thyroid test? So for those of us with "normal" tests, probably not the problem.

By Dr K's ranges, comparing ft3 and ft4, I show a slight pattern of underconversion. Basically, my ft3 is at the low end of lab-normal, and my ft4 is mid-range. His explanation is that it's either high cortisol blocking the conversion, or membrane damage due to inflammation/chronic infection.

Then T3 needs to bind to receptor sites. This could be where the mitochondrial damage kicks in. DNA repair is a key function of methylation, so guessing that well functioning methylation would help out quite a bit here. Might also be genetic mutations for receptor sites that are hereditary (which makes more sense to me as a mechanism for "hereditary" hypothyroidism than what Starr is proposing)

Where's the 'too early in the morning' smilie? I sooo wish I could have an afternoon to just sit down and go over all this with a study group. Instead I have to go to the beach and a farm to pick up pastures chickens


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

I thought I posted this yesterday!

Just rereading the susan owens email finally. This is what she says Dr Bruce Cohen rec's for mitochondria support:

Quote:

Coenzyme Q10 540 mgs/day
L-carnitine 990 mg/day
Riboflavin (no amt. specified)
Alpha lipoic acid 600 mgs/day
creatine monophosphate (dose not specified)
L-arginine (dose not specified)
Folinic acid (dose specified)

I will say that others at the conference (including posters) uniformly
suggested 200 mgs/kg/day on the arginine. That is a HUGE amount.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

... I just want to point out that a) alpha lipoic acid mobilizes several heavy metals quite a bit, and b) 600 mg is a LOT of ALA. It would incapacitate me and I've done a helluva lot in the past 3 years to reduce my metals. Certainly anyone nursing or pregnant or TTC should avoid it IMO. And anyone with unexplained health issues should get a good idea of root cause before taking that--cause hey, if you're reading a thread on thyroid function, I think considering heavy metal involvement would be helpful to working through a list of possible causes.

Many people, maybe most people, with mercury issues have thyroid problems (thank you, amalgam fillings). This doesn't imply that most people with thyroid problems have mercury issues but it's something to consider as part of the search for root cause.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

So I'm having a problem converting my most recent thyroid test results into Dr. K. compatible #s.

Mine *Lab Range* Dr. K range
TSH .82 ulU/mL *.34 -5.60* 1.8 - 3.0 mU/L

FT3 2.91 pg/mL *2.50-3.90* 300-450 pg/mL huh????

FT4 .79 ng/dL *.54-1.24* 1.0-1.5 ng/dL

rT3 23 ng/dL *11-32* 90-450 pg/mL

Anyone want to help me out? Especially with that FT3 #?


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

Let's see what I can remember without quoting....You're right, testing for Hashis would give me more info (since once you have one autoimmune disease, you're more likely to get others).My kids are going to think I'm crazy (they already do) if I start taking their temp every day just to track it.How much gluten did the Egyptians eat? And how did they eat their wheat? If you look at the sourdough experiments, and how the really old sourdough strains actually digest all the gluten in the bread, enough to declare it "gluten-free" by FDA standards, if they were pretty much doing sourdough, then maybe they weren't in fact eating that much gluten. Unless they were doing other things to their wheat. It's like people saying we've been having dairy and wheat for thousands of years so why are people now having trouble with it. We eat it DIFFERENTLY than we did thousands of years ago. We're putting crappy soy lecithin in everything. That wasn't around thousands of years ago, neither was dried pasta I don't think. And "modified food starch". Etc. They just called me a freako because I pinched all their arms...


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The post is on sulfurstories and trying low oxalates, or I can pm it. I'll see if I can post it here, that would be helpful!

PM please, or post here









Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I don't buy the exercise to fix faulty mDNA. I just don't. First off, I'm too tired to exercise. Second, when I do exercise even though I'm tired it just makes me feel worse to the point of crashing. So there has to be something else to fix it besides exercise. But hey, if it works for you then I guess go for it.

See, this is why I don't know where to turn. Although I was coming around to Starr's POV last night when I realized that my mom has osteoprosis and is shrinking, which would be consistent with what he says about hypothyroidism. And thus if she has it, its possible she passed it on to me.

Here's my thinking so far - I think for those of us with ACE+ genes, adrenal fatigue and/or sodium/potassium balance is more likely to be the underlying cause. I actually suspect for most people, "thyroid resistance" is a symptom, not a root cause - but thyroid hormones make a really effective bandaid. Not true for people with adrenal issues though.

ACE+ causes you to retain sodium, dump potassium. If I'm understanding the NTCP main channel for getting thyroid hormone into cells, high sodium is not helpful (Shannon, it's confusing, but I think they're active transport pumps that push sodium out, potassium in).

Increasing thyroid hormone would increase flow into the cell via the other two pathways, which is helpful in the short term. But the NTCP pump deals with more than thyroid hormones - they move a lot of other stuff in and out of cells as well. So I'd rather try to address the root cause (rebalancing sodium & potassium) for long term, instead of taking thyroid hormone forever.

This is just a early stage theory, however







. About 43% of the population has the ACE+ mutation, however, so it seems like it would fit. And it explains some stuff for my DS (should relate to issues with cellular calcium & magnesium as well), so it's a theory I'll keep chasing...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I've been trying to fix my adrenals for a while now and it doesn't seem to be working. And right now I'm just plumb worn out. I need a bandaid.

Take the p5p and NADH - if my son is any indicator, those will help your energy and mood substantially







.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
So I'm having a problem converting my most recent thyroid test results into Dr. K. compatible #s.

Mine *Lab Range* Dr. K range
TSH .82 ulU/mL *.34 -5.60* 1.8 - 3.0 mU/L so low

FT3 2.91 pg/mL *2.50-3.90* 300-450 pg/mL huh???? gonna guess that translates to a 291, slightly low

FT4 .79 ng/dL *.54-1.24* 1.0-1.5 ng/dL so low

rT3 23 ng/dL *11-32* 90-450 pg/mL so 230, normal

Anyone want to help me out? Especially with that FT3 #?

which pattern does that fit? (I'll come back)


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

That mito support list is nuts - lots besides ALA on that list can cause issues for people with lots of crap to detox. Yikes!

Yasko's list is longer (no surprise, LOL). You can see it in her mito compounded supp here. My son doesn't have any test markers indicating need for mito support though.

So next steps for us - about to walk to the drugstore to get iodine to patch test the family. I know we're all good on selenium, zinc, etc. DS is on ATP supp, we'll see what that does on his next pee test for sodium, potassium, and phosphorus levels. I'll take a look at mito markers on his next test again as well.

ETA: Thanks for the mito PM, Shannon. What I get from that is three things. First, something that bothered me in Starr - passing on worse mito DNA to my kids. My eggs were created before I was born - so damage done during my life shouldn't be inherited, it should just impact my health. Second, addressing methylation helps prevent damage and repair DNA, so it's an important piece. Third, the recos for supps are huge - it's "flooding" again - and mostly flooding to speed up mitochondria (so it's a function issue, rather than a damage issue, although damage may reduce function). A lot of that in the autism world - it tends to work awesomely well for a few months, then problems arise. Guessing if you have a deficiency, mega doses are helpful.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
That mito support list is nuts - lots besides ALA on that list can cause issues for people with lots of crap to detox. Yikes!

Yasko's list is longer (no surprise, LOL). You can see it in her mito compounded supp here. My son doesn't have any test markers indicating need for mito support though.

So next steps for us - about to walk to the drugstore to get iodine to patch test the family. I know we're all good on selenium, zinc, etc. DS is on ATP supp, we'll see what that does on his next pee test for sodium, potassium, and phosphorus levels. I'll take a look at mito markers on his next test again as well.

ETA: Thanks for the mito PM, Shannon. What I get from that is three things. First, something that bothered me in Starr - passing on worse mito DNA to my kids. My eggs were created before I was born - so damage done during my life shouldn't be inherited, it should just impact my health. Second, addressing methylation helps prevent damage and repair DNA, so it's an important piece. Third, the recos for supps are huge - it's "flooding" again - and mostly flooding to speed up mitochondria (so it's a function issue, rather than a damage issue, although damage may reduce function). A lot of that in the autism world - it tends to work awesomely well for a few months, then problems arise. Guessing if you have a deficiency, mega doses are helpful.

just replying to what i can atm - don't put too much weight in the patch test. but enjoy the walk!

some of this is also a balancing act of when is it worth it to just pop the hormones and stop worrying about the cause?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

For the patch test, is it inaccurate all around, or works if you're deficient, but passing doesn't mean anything?

I'm all about taking the hormone when it comes to me. When it comes to putting my son on it, that's a very different issue. And for those of us with normal tests, getting the hormone isn't all that easy!

So question - do all of you get oral & armpit temps that are the same? Starr says they should be, standard medical stuff says oral is 1 degree higher. I'm closer to the second. It matters, because for DS, all I can get is armpit.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

I forget the details on the patch test. I think if it sticks around a long time, that *might* tell you something. But iodine changes color pretty easily (vit C turns it clear, starch turns it blue, etc) so I don't think I've even done it on myself yet.

Gonna reread and take notes, now that I have half a brain and two hands on a keyboard







Ignore the jumping around









So I definitely am +/- for SMB2, a selenium binding protein that results in low activity of selenium proteins, like for converting t4->t3, glutathione peroxidase, etc. Not sure what to do about it, selenium doesn't appear to be useful. My mom's ++. I also don't know what my specific mutation does, just that it is in fact a mutation.

------------

According to Dr K, chlobo, you've got hypoT secondary to pituitary hypofunction (pg 78), which can be caused by postpartum depression and/or adrenal stress (so helpful







). Supps are pituitary and thyroid glandulars, rubidium sulfate, sage, L-arginine, gamma oryzanol. mag, zinc, manganese. And adrenal support. So focus on your adrenals first, and your thyroid will get happier, sez I. I know you've been trying. Think of it as an excuse to not worry about your thyroid at all and focus energy elsewhere.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

gonna back up a bit for a bigger picture.

Starr is talking about a not-enough-mitochondria issue. So the question is why isn't there enough, and how do we get more? And one answer is exercise and the other is more thyroid hormone. If you go the hormone route, the question is why isn't there enough, and what do you want to do about it?

In any case, it seems that as you get more mitochondria, especially via exercise, you get healthier, more efficient mitochondria, and the DNA *does* change.

So the hormone route, cause that's what's likely suppressing them in the first place. Either there's not enough hormone stimulating the mitochondria for whatever reason, or there is, but the mtDNA sucks and so it doesn't count and you need more. That's Starr's conclusion. We'll take a look at not enough stimulation cause it's easier to do something about.

Possible reasons:
-Bad receptors on the mitochondria
-Low T3 entering cells
-Low conversion of T4 to T3 in the cells (does this happen in cells or outside them?)
-Low T4 entering cells

And this is where the Dr K book is handy, for the sake of figuring out some of these details, and how to identify which pattern.

he says:
-cellular resistance can be caused by testosterone and high insulin levels (insulin resistance/PCOS), characterized by high-ish FT3 and FT4 can be caused by high cortisol -or- high homocysteine -or- genetic predisposition








-low free hormone but normal total can be from insulin resistance
-low conversion can be caused by high cortisol -or- deterioration of cell membranes

So not much biochem, but it's a great start. Deterioration of cell membranes (pretty vague, huh?) he credits to chronic infection or inflammation/lipid peroxidation.

So where are we? Bring down any high insulin levels, bring down any high cortisol (where does that leave low cortisol adrenal fatigue folks?), reduce infection and inflammation. Support cell membranes and hormone transporters/converters. Sigh. Everything's a symptom of a thyroid problem, and a thyroid problem's just a symptom itself!

Vitamin A appears to affect how well thyroid receptors in the nucleus function. It also appears to be an inhibitor of mucin production. Given that I'm pretty certain that I've had thyroid issues forever, but that the mucin is only showing up now, I'm wondering if it's a low thyroid AND low vitamin A thing? Anyone?

-----------

Okay, on to the membrane proteins.
There are the transporters. That's what you were looking up, yeah Deb? Passive diffusion isn't interesting. Active transport is. Possible variables:
-low cAMP (should be 'jump start'-able?)
-sodium/potassium concentration. Hmm, one thing the hormones do is increase sodium potassium pumps, so in theory, better regulating the concentrations. This might be jumpstartable too, with good electrolytes?
-genetics

There are the converters, the deiodinases. I think there are three of them? lost that link








-SECISBP2 (aka SBP2) is responsible for attaching selenium, and can be broken to various degrees, genetically.
-selenium is key
-dr k says zinc, too

And general membrane health.
-reduce inflammation
-reduce chronic infection (I still don't get what this MEANS)
-reduce lipid peroxidation

Dr K says:
-liposomal cream with glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and phosphatidylcholine.

Yasko says: (deb?)

My knowledge says:
-low PUFAs
-good omega 3:6 ratio
-glutathione

Masterjohn on glutathione (haven't read it yet):
http://westonaprice.org/blogs/the-bi...utathione.html
------------

So then, how do we tell what pattern we're looking at? Guess and check? Where do we start guessing? What do we look for?

K, that's all I got right now. Off for a brisk walk with ds in my new running shoes







Gonna fix that DNA good!


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Just got my hands on a copy of the Dr. K book.

I'm guessing adding thyroid hormones doesn't increase mitochondria, just stimulates them - if it added new mitochondria, stably, then you wouldn't need thyroid hormones forever.

I think electrolyte balance is a big piece - so that means understanding where you are high and low - hair test? A/D/K2 as well, and having calcium decently regulated.

I think proper lipid digestion & metabolism is a big piece, and then inputing good fats (3:6 balance for sure, and enough, but not too much to end up with partially oxidized fats). Eggs are a great natural source of PS/PC. Yasko also uses policosanol for membranes.

Deal with toxic metals, several of them mess with cell membranes & receptors.

cAMP - still figuring this one out, but digesting fats and carbs well to turn them into ATP is an obvious prerequisite.

Liver & kidney support - a well functioning urea cycle to clear out crap and help keep electrolytes balanced.

T4 -> T3 happens in and out of cells, sounds like some people have low blood T3, so convert fine outside of cells, but maybe not inside. There are the 3 deiodinases, 1 works everywhere, the other two are location specific (e.g. one is only in the CNS I think). Might help explain why symptoms vary so much.

Chronic infection is a yasko thing - viral or gut bacteria loads cause lots of oxidative stress and use up energy. So guessing it just means the thyroid can't keep up.

I'm taking a serious look at the exercise stuff though. Daily yoga, coming up! I need to do some morning yoga and see if my temps change during that day.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Just got my hands on a copy of the Dr. K book.

I'm guessing adding thyroid hormones doesn't increase mitochondria, just stimulates them - if it added new mitochondria, stably, then you wouldn't need thyroid hormones forever.

I would expect the size and number to gradually go down by default, for the sake of saving body resources, and be stimulated to increase according to need by thyroid and exercise. So without the exercise component, it wouldn't surprise me at all to need thyroid hormones forever. Assuming you're doing exogenous hormones and not increasing your own production, of course.

Quote:

I think electrolyte balance is a big piece - so that means understanding where you are high and low - hair test? A/D/K2 as well, and having calcium decently regulated.
Definitely calcium, but doesn't it take a specific hair test to be able to tell relevant sodium/potassium ratios? One where they don't wash it? Pretty sure I read that somewhere... Swelling is one sign of imbalance, and lack of energy, and leg/foot cramps.

Quote:

I think proper lipid digestion & metabolism is a big piece, and then inputing good fats (3:6 balance for sure, and enough, but not too much to end up with partially oxidized fats). Eggs are a great natural source of PS/PC. Yasko also uses policosanol for membranes.
besides the genetics (which isn't me, as far as I can tell), what are other markers for lipid digestion and metabolism?

And really, too much fat leaves you with partially oxidized fats?

Brains are also really high in PS









Quote:

Liver & kidney support - a well functioning urea cycle to clear out crap and help keep electrolytes balanced.
have we looked at the lists of supps (the mito one and the yasko one and the Dr K one) to see what each one *does*? What's the point of all the arginine? Interestingly, it's converted to citrulline and combined with aspartate in the urea cycle. I'm high in aspartate and low in citrulline and arginine...

Quote:

T4 -> T3 happens in and out of cells, sounds like some people have low blood T3, so convert fine outside of cells, but maybe not inside. There are the 3 deiodinases, 1 works everywhere, the other two are location specific (e.g. one is only in the CNS I think). Might help explain why symptoms vary so much.
happen to know which one SECISBP2 is relevant to? by chance?

Quote:

Chronic infection is a yasko thing - viral or gut bacteria loads cause lots of oxidative stress and use up energy. So guessing it just means the thyroid can't keep up.
Dr K is talking about it too. So that means gut healing can make a big difference? So which comes first? The thyroid or the pancreas? Which will heal the other? Of course we all know the answer is to do them both at once.

Quote:

I'm taking a serious look at the exercise stuff though. Daily yoga, coming up! I need to do some morning yoga and see if my temps change during that day.
dh claims he's going to help me remember to eat my liver and get at least 30 min exercise every day. Says he's always wanted a morning jogging partner. I'm so not a land animal, but don't really have a pool anymore. And we do have a jogging stroller now. Hmmm...


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I would expect the size and number to gradually go down by default, for the sake of saving body resources, and be stimulated to increase according to need by thyroid and exercise. So without the exercise component, it wouldn't surprise me at all to need thyroid hormones forever. Assuming you're doing exogenous hormones and not increasing your own production, of course.

What else stimulates? This is like raising your basal metabolic rate, right? So smaller, more frequent meals, I think - need to read more on that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Definitely calcium, but doesn't it take a specific hair test to be able to tell relevant sodium/potassium ratios? One where they don't wash it? Pretty sure I read that somewhere... Swelling is one sign of imbalance, and lack of energy, and leg/foot cramps.

I see it in DS' hair and urine tests both, and they are similar, so I've assumed the hair test is accurate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
besides the genetics (which isn't me, as far as I can tell), what are other markers for lipid digestion and metabolism?


There are some MAP test markers, and CSA markers, I think. Floating poop is bad, a hard time getting A/D/K levels up even with adequate intake. Evidence of mineral deficiencies (cavities, etc). Low energy. Bad gut.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
And really, too much fat leaves you with partially oxidized fats?

Brains are also really high in PS










EWWW, and I think so.

For people who have the NOS mutation, Dr. Amy says too many omega 3s can downregulate the NOS even further, so control intake. We stick to food omega 3s and control 6s.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 

have we looked at the lists of supps (the mito one and the yasko one and the Dr K one) to see what each one *does*? What's the point of all the arginine? Interestingly, it's converted to citrulline and combined with aspartate in the urea cycle. I'm high in aspartate and low in citrulline and arginine...

In general Yasko uses them to push various steps in the Kreb's cycle and urea cycles. DS has high arginine, low citrulline - so we are supping citrulline to help with that (citrulline has a backdoor path to clear ammonia). Arginine is often high in people with NOS mutation, so I don't know why you'd supp more.

Here's more from Yasko, "Overall mitochondrial/Krebs support can include: pantothenic and riboflavin along with carnitine to help the flow at 12:00 into the cycle. Lactoferrin, GSH and curcumin depending on genetics and other test values to move from 1:00 to 2:00. NADH, riboflavin, niacinamide, ATP, benfotiamine to get you around to 7:00 to succinate. Vitamin E succinate, various forms of B12 (hydroxy, methyl ,adenosyl), CoQ10 and vitamin K to get beyond the succinate/MMA issues and then the direct use of carnitine fumarate if needed as well as malic acid".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
happen to know which one SECISBP2 is relevant to? by chance?


D2 I think, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16228000

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/140/2/844

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 

Dr K is talking about it too. So that means gut healing can make a big difference? So which comes first? The thyroid or the pancreas? Which will heal the other? Of course we all know the answer is to do them both at once.

dh claims he's going to help me remember to eat my liver and get at least 30 min exercise every day. Says he's always wanted a morning jogging partner. I'm so not a land animal, but don't really have a pool anymore. And we do have a jogging stroller now. Hmmm...

My much more simple explanation for the epidemic of more symptomatic hypot is that we don't move. We lead very sedentary lives, and pg/little ones particularly so. I don't think it's accidental that a lot of us started seeing some additional symptoms around the time we had little ones - adrenal fatigue, stress, no exercise.


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
According to Dr K, chlobo, you've got hypoT secondary to pituitary hypofunction (pg 78), which can be caused by postpartum depression and/or adrenal stress (so helpful







). Supps are pituitary and thyroid glandulars, rubidium sulfate, sage, L-arginine, gamma oryzanol. mag, zinc, manganese. And adrenal support. So focus on your adrenals first, and your thyroid will get happier, sez I. I know you've been trying. Think of it as an excuse to not worry about your thyroid at all and focus energy elsewhere.

Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?

Good question, I don't know. Kidney supports in theory should help, but with a system that is melting down, it might now. Several of the supports I told you about are more active forms of B's, try those - they are important for mitochondrial function, so that would increase energy and should decrease the stress on your adrenals.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.























I've always been an insanely fast reader. It's Shannon's fault I'm reading biochemistry now







.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
What else stimulates? This is like raising your basal metabolic rate, right? So smaller, more frequent meals, I think - need to read more on that.

yeah, raising basal metabolic rate. Not too much protein, is that from Starr? And it seems prudent to keep insulin in check. The blood sugar folks talk about long gaps 3-4 hours, minimum between meals for the sake of building up insulin reserves and properly using them.
[/quote]

Quote:

There are some MAP test markers, and CSA markers, I think. Floating poop is bad, a hard time getting A/D/K levels up even with adequate intake. Evidence of mineral deficiencies (cavities, etc). Low energy. Bad gut.
I'll come back to this when I'm ready







. But how do we know about A/D/K levels? How do we know what's just a bad deficiency vs bad absorption? What are adequate levels for a baby. Preschooler? Tandem nursing mama with major deficiencies?

Quote:

For people who have the NOS mutation, Dr. Amy says too many omega 3s can downregulate the NOS even further, so control intake. We stick to food omega 3s and control 6s.
That's SO me! Now I want to know the mechanism. Omega 3's give me ingrown toenails. Teething gives them to ds. It sure would be nice to figure that one out!

Quote:

In general Yasko uses them to push various steps in the Kreb's cycle and urea cycles. DS has high arginine, low citrulline - so we are supping citrulline to help with that (citrulline has a backdoor path to clear ammonia). Arginine is often high in people with NOS mutation, so I don't know why you'd supp more.

Here's more from Yasko, "Overall mitochondrial/Krebs support can include: pantothenic and riboflavin along with carnitine to help the flow at 12:00 into the cycle. Lactoferrin, GSH and curcumin depending on genetics and other test values to move from 1:00 to 2:00. NADH, riboflavin, niacinamide, ATP, benfotiamine to get you around to 7:00 to succinate. Vitamin E succinate, various forms of B12 (hydroxy, methyl ,adenosyl), CoQ10 and vitamin K to get beyond the succinate/MMA issues and then the direct use of carnitine fumarate if needed as well as malic acid".
Will come back to that one, too

Quote:

D2 I think, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16228000

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/140/2/844
Awesome









Quote:

My much more simple explanation for the epidemic of more symptomatic hypot is that we don't move. We lead very sedentary lives, and pg/little ones particularly so. I don't think it's accidental that a lot of us started seeing some additional symptoms around the time we had little ones - adrenal fatigue, stress, no exercise.
I definitely agree with the exercise bit. But I think a big part of the reason it shows up with LO's has more to do with the nutritional depletion of pg/lactation. It puts an extra drain on any existing minor deficiencies. At least, that was the bigger factor for me, I think. Stress actually went WAY down after dd was born, for the 6mo before the food restrictions started in, and while the reactions were getting progressively more frequent/severe. And exercise levels didn't change much from the couple years prior.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Ah yes. I found that page myself. So what exactly to take for adrenal support? I'm taking OraAdrenal plus the vit b stuff. Is there something anyone has found particularly effective?

Also, Deb, in the arena of balancing sodium and potassium, how does one do that? I've been taking a lot of sodium ascorbate. Would that be a bad idea because I'm adding sodium to an already overloaded sodium system?

I think the sodium in sodium ascorbate cancels itself out getting used by the ascorbate so it doesn't count. I'd go by taste - if salt tastes GOOD, use a lot of it. I was drinking salt water every morning, and while I didn't have the huge relief of symptoms from it that some report, I definitely could feel the difference.

As far as supporting your adrenals, id look at what's stressing them and try to address *that*. The vitamins were totally clear cut for me, and now I know its likely cause of poor digestion/absorption. I wouldn't stop the vitamins, but if they're not having a huge impact, I'd look for other causes. Like the metals. And then focus on lifestyle stuff to reduce other stress. You know, the stuff thats almost impossible to change as a mom of young kids? Sleep, having dedicated time to relax, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
How on earth do the two of you read so fast? And you really remember all of that stuff? I am so much in awe of you ladies and very glad you are here.























I've been reading it all many, many times over cause I'm not at all retaining it like I normally do. And I got some of that much needed time to myself yesterday afternoon to just focus


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

More random musings...

Think mom can pass on low mitochondria action to the baby by being low while pg?

And if thyroid hormone acts on both the mitochondria AND the nucleus with protein synthesis, but exercise only affects the mitochondria, then what does that tell us? Are there any clues for which might be the initial problem? I'm wondering if body temp and energy levels have more to do with the mito while food reactions and such are a sign that exercise alone won't cut it?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Part way through the Dr. K book, liking that a LOT more than the Starr book. Plus I already have a drawer full of a lot of the herbs he likes







. He has great info and references on herb function, way clearer than Yasko ever lays it out.

I think we may be dealing with Hashi's here. I took thyroid glandular for 5 days and got hot flashes. And I have three sibs with autoimmune arthritis issues - we have big autoimmune issues all over the family. My sister with JRA always had freezing cold hands and feet, my other sister had 3 babes over 10lbs (last one 13lbs) and gained 90lbs with her last pg (she only weighs 110lbs). So I may just be the one who had no visible autoimmune issues for the longest. I didn't notice any change from adding gluten back in for me after 8mo gluten free, but I wasn't paying attention to cold feet.

I think Vitamin D deficiency also plays - correlated tightly with autoimmune issues, we have both vdr-taq and vdr-fok mutations (impact vitamin D receptors), and heck, I grew up in Canada as a kid who sunburned easily.

So I am going to order thyroid tests for DH and I from directlabs. Looks like I need to piece together several tests to get the right markers. Is this a complete list of what I need to know?

- TPO antibodies
- TSH
- free T3 & T4
- reverse T3

I'm also going to check our vitamin D levels.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 







... I just want to point out that a) alpha lipoic acid mobilizes several heavy metals quite a bit, and b) 600 mg is a LOT of ALA. It would incapacitate me and I've done a helluva lot in the past 3 years to reduce my metals. Certainly anyone nursing or pregnant or TTC should avoid it IMO. And anyone with unexplained health issues should get a good idea of root cause before taking that--cause hey, if you're reading a thread on thyroid function, I think considering heavy metal involvement would be helpful to working through a list of possible causes.

Many people, maybe most people, with mercury issues have thyroid problems (thank you, amalgam fillings). This doesn't imply that most people with thyroid problems have mercury issues but it's something to consider as part of the search for root cause.

I wonder if it's the detox abilities that helps with the mitochondria? Maybe that's why the list is so heavy on the detox stuff?


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## rainbringer (Dec 2, 2007)

Thanks for starting this thread. I had normal tests last year. I've gained about sixty pounds in the past few years, very tired, no allergies that I know of. We tried gfcf diet for a while for my daughter with autism, no changes that I could see. Before going to the doctor, I tried supplementing iodine and got this painful pulsing around the thyroid - so i'm afraid to try that again. I'm taking B complex and selenium and zinc. I think they may be helping some.

I have mucin arms but haven't checked temps through the day.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

lol, Deb, yup, Dr K thinks everyone has Hashi's. It does sound reasonable for your history, though. Is there such thing as mild hashi's? Cause just looking at cold hands and feet, it doesn't sound like you have much in the way of symptoms! If I were to comment on those lab tests, I'd have to look at Dr K first, and you have that one there







Aren't there two different antibody tests to look at, though?

--------------------

And another question to ponder.

Who is a prime candidate for thyroid hormone therapy? Which kids? How can you tell? Who is it *necessary* for?

I'm wondering, with my mom's clear thyroid symptoms, and my issues from the get go, I'm assuming my thyroid receptors have not been happily triggered my entire life. If mom's thyroid status affect's baby's thyroid development, then is it safe to assume my thyroid is underdeveloped? As is dd's?
http://72.148.194.153/research/burro...al_thyroid.pdf

Though, if blood tests are normal, then the hormone levels are fine and it's a different issue. But I wonder, if supporting everything else, if the thyroid then wouldn't be able to keep up with the actual real demand of a healthy body, and *that's* when extra hormones are necessary? And how do you find that point? Would labs show low values then? Forgetting the logistics of getting the right hormones, would it make more sense to start high, then drop the dose as you get proper support in place, or to try and maximize your own production and then do hormones for that last little bit?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Evidence of thyroxine formation following iodine administration in Sprague-Dawley rats

This is from vitaminK, a couple years ago. They're saying that iodine (as opposed to iodide) hangs out in the gut, and that it can convert T3 (and T2) back to T4. So that's another possible mechanism for high T4/low T3. They were noticing a difference with the different forms with the kids on the vitK protocol.

For myself, first trimester, I noticed significant improvement on iodide, and nothing from equivalent/higher doses of lugol's. Unless my lugol's has just lost that much potency (anything's possible!), it sounds like something like this is happening for me. I wonder if gut healing/rebalancing would fix the issue? Or maybe that's part of why people use such crazy high doses of lugol's/iodoral?

And another thing from back in the days on the vit K list... when kids don't tolerate iodine, they say to start super slow and work up. Like almost homeopathic slow, and work up from there.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
lol, Deb, yup, Dr K thinks everyone has Hashi's. It does sound reasonable for your history, though. Is there such thing as mild hashi's? Cause just looking at cold hands and feet, it doesn't sound like you have much in the way of symptoms! If I were to comment on those lab tests, I'd have to look at Dr K first, and you have that one there







Aren't there two different antibody tests to look at, though?

--------------------

And another question to ponder.

Who is a prime candidate for thyroid hormone therapy? Which kids? How can you tell? Who is it *necessary* for?

I'm wondering, with my mom's clear thyroid symptoms, and my issues from the get go, I'm assuming my thyroid receptors have not been happily triggered my entire life. If mom's thyroid status affect's baby's thyroid development, then is it safe to assume my thyroid is underdeveloped? As is dd's?
http://72.148.194.153/research/burro...al_thyroid.pdf

Though, if blood tests are normal, then the hormone levels are fine and it's a different issue. But I wonder, if supporting everything else, if the thyroid then wouldn't be able to keep up with the actual real demand of a healthy body, and *that's* when extra hormones are necessary? And how do you find that point? Would labs show low values then? Forgetting the logistics of getting the right hormones, would it make more sense to start high, then drop the dose as you get proper support in place, or to try and maximize your own production and then do hormones for that last little bit?

I agree he's a little hashi's happy - but I also agree with him that it matters whether you are having thyroid autoimmune issues. I have very few symptoms - but I have a family history that SCREAMS autoimmune genetics from hell. I've always been concerned that this kind of thing could sneak up on me and do real damage before I saw real symptoms. So whatever's going on for me, I think it's early in the process - and it may just be some tired adrenals from 3 years of being up a lot with DS. Worth testing though, I think.

I like Dr K's analogy of the thyroid issues being like the check engine light coming on in your car. Yasko takes a similar approach on a lot of issues - it's better to leave the symptom alone, if it's not a big negative factor in your life - and as you address root causes, it will give you a good read on how much better you're doing. So I'm better off leaving my feet cold and trying to improve my receptors, for example - I know I've done enough when my feet warm up. My only real symptoms seem to be cold hands & feet, low basal temp (but not really low like some here), and mucin arms. None of which I need gone NOW. If I was exhausted, that would be a different thing, and I'd try the hormones to see if they were a good bandaid for me.

With kids, I feel like it's important to fix the non-hormone parts of the equation first, and only use hormones if they're actually deficient. It's clear from both Starr & Dr K that not all tissues/organs are equally thyroid hormone resistant - the brain and pituitary are the most resistant. So if you pump up the hormones enough to take care of brain/pituitary related symptoms, I'd be concerned you'd be overstimulating some other cells in the body - and in a child, that doesn't feel like the best approach.

But I also intuitively find Dr. K's approach appealing - perhaps because I've already seen the power of some carefully targeted supps to address some really major body process problems, even with weak genetics. If we can get DS methylating with all the mutations he has in his methylation pathway, it seems like we should be able to normalize his thyroid function too. I'm not opposed to some thyroid glandular as a source of building blocks, but small doses, not the therapeutic doses in thyroid meds.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Evidence of thyroxine formation following iodine administration in Sprague-Dawley rats

This is from vitaminK, a couple years ago. They're saying that iodine (as opposed to iodide) hangs out in the gut, and that it can convert T3 (and T2) back to T4. So that's another possible mechanism for high T4/low T3. They were noticing a difference with the different forms with the kids on the vitK protocol.

For myself, first trimester, I noticed significant improvement on iodide, and nothing from equivalent/higher doses of lugol's. Unless my lugol's has just lost that much potency (anything's possible!), it sounds like something like this is happening for me. I wonder if gut healing/rebalancing would fix the issue? Or maybe that's part of why people use such crazy high doses of lugol's/iodoral?

And another thing from back in the days on the vit K list... when kids don't tolerate iodine, they say to start super slow and work up. Like almost homeopathic slow, and work up from there.

Is iodide the active form? Yasko uses the active form of lots of B vites, and they make a noticeable difference for DS, vs. the forms that are easiest to put in supps. In a fragile kid, I've learned to assume nothing converts "easily" to active form. If I can supp the active form, I do.

I've also become a non-fan of monster doses of anything for very long. Works great to address a deficiency, but after that, you're just using a battering ram on an enzyme reaction - it may work, but there's likely to be some side effects of massive doses of whatever. Better to figure out other ways to better support the reaction. This happens in the autism world with high dose B6, or methyl B12, or vitamin A, or carnitine, and then everyone is giving their kids high dose whatever.

ETA: I'm interested in the cytokines piece too - Dr K says elevated TH1 or TH2 cytokines can block thyroid receptor sites. Any autoimmune issue can cause elevated cytokines, so celiac, maybe food intolerances, whatever other random thing might be going on with my kiddo (chronic viral infection, maybe?), you'd get blocked thyroid receptors. Dr. Amy has some stuff on cytokines you work on later in her protocol, I need to go take a look at those. Seems like I may want to test DS for cytokines.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Our family is also a cesspool of autoimmune stuff. Arthritis, MS, etc. However, at the moment, I don't have antibodies, although there is suspicion that I might be come down with an autoimmune condition. So I'd really like to halt the progression of it if I can.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Carren, Dr. K says if he suspects Hashi's and doesn't see antibodies on the first test, he tests again (with a gluten provocation if someone is GF, to purposely trigger a flare).

One thing I think is fascinating - he tests to see if someone is TH1 or TH2 pathway dominant (immune responses), and then he supports the weaker pathway. Assuming TH1 dominance (true for 90% of Hashi's patients), DS is on 80% of the supps he would use - grapeseed extract, pycnogenol, etc. And for reducing general immune disorder, he suggests curcumin & pancreatic enzymes. So a lot of overlap with Dr. Amy stuff, although for different reasons. So I feel good that I have DS on stuff that should modulate his immune response, even if I put him on them largely for different reasons.

Have you had your cytokines tested, Carren? If you're "at risk" for autoimmune flareup, I'm guessing his supps to modulate immune stuff would be a great list for you to start on (they're generic, not just for Hashi's). And you can watch and retest to see if you're making progress. So instead of waiting to develop antibodies to one of your organs, you could just get your immune system into better territory. Dr. K thinks autism is an autoimmune disorder attacking your own brain







, so for DS, this seems like a really important step (as does dealing with metals, viruses, etc that can trigger autoimmune issues).

Dr. K also has an interesting perspective on chelation for people who are at risk of auto-immune issues - he thinks you should deal with the immune stuff first, then the metals (if at all) - chelating could trigger an immune flare. I'm guessing low grade, well supported chelation is a lot less likely to do that, he's likely mostly seen what DAN & alternative practitioners do, which is insanely aggressive.

Oh, and went through DH's last blood test, it had most of the thyroid numbers (missing free T3). He fits two possible profiles of the 6 in Dr. K's book, and both are caused by high cortisol. We discovered he has mucin neck - thinking that might relate to his migraines!


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Carren, Dr. K says if he suspects Hashi's and doesn't see antibodies on the first test, he tests again (with a gluten provocation if someone is GF, to purposely trigger a flare).
I've been tested twice over a period of months, however there was not purposeful gluten trigger. Not sure I want to sign up for that. And I"m not sure I could find a doctor who would go along with that. Although the rheumatologist wants to see me 6 months from my last appointment. I could just eat gluten & ask him to retest the antibodies.

One thing I think is fascinating - he tests to see if someone is TH1 or TH2 pathway dominant (immune responses), and then he supports the weaker pathway. Assuming TH1 dominance (true for 90% of Hashi's patients), DS is on 80% of the supps he would use - grapeseed extract, pycnogenol, etc. And for reducing general immune disorder, he suggests curcumin & pancreatic enzymes. So a lot of overlap with Dr. Amy stuff, although for different reasons. So I feel good that I have DS on stuff that should modulate his immune response, even if I put him on them largely for different reasons.

Have you had your cytokines tested, Carren? If you're "at risk" for autoimmune flareup, I'm guessing his supps to modulate immune stuff would be a great list for you to start on (they're generic, not just for Hashi's). And you can watch and retest to see if you're making progress. So instead of waiting to develop antibodies to one of your organs, you could just get your immune system into better territory. Dr. K thinks autism is an autoimmune disorder attacking your own brain







, so for DS, this seems like a really important step (as does dealing with metals, viruses, etc that can trigger autoimmune issues).

How would I know if I had my cytokines tested? What is the test called? Is that a mainstream test or only something a functional med. doctor or md would order? The rheumatologist did a lot of tests but nothing specifically said "cytokine".

Dr. K also has an interesting perspective on chelation for people who are at risk of auto-immune issues - he thinks you should deal with the immune stuff first, then the metals (if at all) - chelating could trigger an immune flare. I'm guessing low grade, well supported chelation is a lot less likely to do that, he's likely mostly seen what DAN & alternative practitioners do, which is insanely aggressive.

Oh, and went through DH's last blood test, it had most of the thyroid numbers (missing free T3). He fits two possible profiles of the 6 in Dr. K's book, and both are caused by high cortisol. We discovered he has mucin neck - thinking that might relate to his migraines!

Interesting about dealing with immune system first. What kind of test do you need to figure out if you are T1 or T2 dominant?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Do you have Dr. K's book? I'd say the chapters on Hashi's are worth a read, particularly chapter 3. TH1 dominant is cytokines IL (interleukin)-2, IL-12, TNFa, and interferon. TH2 is IL-4, IL-13, IL-10. Any stuff like that on your tests?

Directlabs has a couple TH1/TH2 panels, but they are $200-$400. The other way Dr. K figures it out is to take the TH1 supps for 3 days, then stop and take the TH2 supps for 3 days. If you feel better on one, then you can assume the other is your dominant pathway. If you feel worse on both, that means things too (his chapter covers off the permutations).

I wouldn't do a gluten challenge to see if you have Hashi's. Dr. K's protocol for that is to treat the immune system, not the thyroid, so it doesn't really matter if you have Hashi's or not - if you have an autoimmune dysfunctional system, you'd treat it the same. So you could just do that, and assume it will help Hashi's if you have it, and help any other un-named autoimmune thing (or potential thing) too.

His basic program for autoimmune stuff:
1) address unstable blood sugar (this one I need to do) - basically, eat less sugar, eat a little protein every 2-3 hours, if you feel sleepy or crave sugar after you eat, you ate too many carbs
2) address adrenal health - still reading that chapter
3) take out gluten (required for Hashi's) and any other food intolerances
4) therapeutic levels of vitD - 5000-20,000mg. He talks about vitD receptor mutations (you have both, and are homozygous for one of them), are present in 90% of people with autoimmune issues, and they need high normal vitD blood levels at a minimum. Take along with some fish oil (EFA/DHA).
5) glutathionine cream - with your mutations, this would be fine - this along with the vitD starts to modulate the immune sytem
6) tame the dominant pathway (TH1 or TH2) by supporting other pathway:

supporting TH1 (so TH2 dominant): astragalus, echinacea, beta-glucan mushroom, glycyrrhiza, lemon balm

supporting TH2 (so TH1 dominant - this is 90% of Hashi's people): caffeine, green tea extract, grape seed extract, pine bark extract, white willow bark, lycopene, resveratrol, pycnogenol

7) take stuff to modulate both pathways: probiotics, vitamin A & E, colostrum, boswellia, pancreatic enzymes, curcumin

He says you do all these things, you basically get rid of your antibodies and render your autoimmune condition "dormant"


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I have his book but stopped reading when the Starr book came in from the library.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Skip to chapter 3, it has the good stuff from an autoimmune perspective. I will likely apply some of it to myself even if I don't have Hashi's - with all three of my sibs with serious autoimmune issues, I suspect it would be smart.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Iirc, iodide is the form used by the thyroid; iodine is the form used by the rest of the body. And iodine is the form found in food. Time to look up that conversion...

No iodine late at night, right? I've got a tickle throat that's most likely too much selenium. Iodine made the last one go away, but it's already late and I want sleep!


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Evidence of thyroxine formation following iodine administration in Sprague-Dawley rats

This is from vitaminK, a couple years ago. They're saying that iodine (as opposed to iodide) hangs out in the gut, and that it can convert T3 (and T2) back to T4. So that's another possible mechanism for high T4/low T3. They were noticing a difference with the different forms with the kids on the vitK protocol.

For myself, first trimester, I noticed significant improvement on iodide, and nothing from equivalent/higher doses of lugol's. Unless my lugol's has just lost that much potency (anything's possible!), it sounds like something like this is happening for me. I wonder if gut healing/rebalancing would fix the issue? Or maybe that's part of why people use such crazy high doses of lugol's/iodoral?

And another thing from back in the days on the vit K list... when kids don't tolerate iodine, they say to start super slow and work up. Like almost homeopathic slow, and work up from there.

Yes, what I read on this was to take <suggested dose- let's say 3 drops> and dilute by 10 (so add 30 drops to it). Then try taking the recommended dose of this lower concentration. If you still react, again dilute the diluted concentration by 10. Etc and so forth until you can "work up" to the suggested dose.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Do you have Dr. K's book? I'd say the chapters on Hashi's are worth a read, particularly chapter 3. TH1 dominant is cytokines IL (interleukin)-2, IL-12, TNFa, and interferon. TH2 is IL-4, IL-13, IL-10. Any stuff like that on your tests?

Directlabs has a couple TH1/TH2 panels, but they are $200-$400. The other way Dr. K figures it out is to take the TH1 supps for 3 days, then stop and take the TH2 supps for 3 days. If you feel better on one, then you can assume the other is your dominant pathway. If you feel worse on both, that means things too (his chapter covers off the permutations).

I wouldn't do a gluten challenge to see if you have Hashi's. Dr. K's protocol for that is to treat the immune system, not the thyroid, so it doesn't really matter if you have Hashi's or not - if you have an autoimmune dysfunctional system, you'd treat it the same. So you could just do that, and assume it will help Hashi's if you have it, and help any other un-named autoimmune thing (or potential thing) too.

His basic program for autoimmune stuff:
1) address unstable blood sugar (this one I need to do) - basically, eat less sugar, eat a little protein every 2-3 hours, if you feel sleepy or crave sugar after you eat, you ate too many carbs
2) address adrenal health - still reading that chapter
3) take out gluten (required for Hashi's) and any other food intolerances
4) therapeutic levels of vitD - 5000-20,000mg. He talks about vitD receptor mutations (you have both, and are homozygous for one of them), are present in 90% of people with autoimmune issues, and they need high normal vitD blood levels at a minimum. Take along with some fish oil (EFA/DHA).
5) glutathionine cream - with your mutations, this would be fine - this along with the vitD starts to modulate the immune sytem
6) tame the dominant pathway (TH1 or TH2) by supporting other pathway:

supporting TH1 (so TH2 dominant): astragalus, echinacea, beta-glucan mushroom, glycyrrhiza, lemon balm

supporting TH2 (so TH1 dominant - this is 90% of Hashi's people): caffeine, green tea extract, grape seed extract, pine bark extract, white willow bark, lycopene, resveratrol, pycnogenol

7) take stuff to modulate both pathways: probiotics, vitamin A & E, colostrum, boswellia, pancreatic enzymes, curcumin

He says you do all these things, you basically get rid of your antibodies and render your autoimmune condition "dormant"

Interesting. I react badly to caffeine (jitters) and I'm allergic/intolerant to aspirin (derived from white willow bark). Haven't tried any of the others- unless pine bark tea would count as pine bark extract? Which my (foster) mom made for me once when I was ill.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Interesting. I react badly to caffeine (jitters) and I'm allergic/intolerant to aspirin (derived from white willow bark). Haven't tried any of the others- unless pine bark tea would count as pine bark extract? Which my (foster) mom made for me once when I was ill.

Dr. K says often reacting badly is a sign that is your dominant pathway, and it's the other one that needs supporting. For adults, coffee is often a clue - some feel bad on it (TH1 dominant), some feel better (TH2 dominant). But, caffeine can also mess with adrenals, in which case doesn't relate







. If you were TH2 dominant, that would be only about 10% of his Hashi's patients, most are TH1.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
For myself, first trimester, I noticed significant improvement on iodide, and nothing from equivalent/higher doses of lugol's. Unless my lugol's has just lost that much potency (anything's possible!), it sounds like something like this is happening for me. I wonder if gut healing/rebalancing would fix the issue? Or maybe that's part of why people use such crazy high doses of lugol's/iodoral?

I take it back. It's iodine trichloride that I feel better on vs lugols.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Anyone want my Starr book, I'll mail it to you.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Anyone want my Starr book, I'll mail it to you.

Glad that's the one I got from the library. So you don't think the human race is doomed by thyroid deficiency?


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Dr. K says often reacting badly is a sign that is your dominant pathway, and it's the other one that needs supporting. For adults, coffee is often a clue - some feel bad on it (TH1 dominant), some feel better (TH2 dominant). But, caffeine can also mess with adrenals, in which case doesn't relate







. If you were TH2 dominant, that would be only about 10% of his Hashi's patients, most are TH1.

Yeah, it could be adrenal... I used to drink a LOT of coffee.
At this point in my life, I've personally experienced too many things that are considered "rare" or "unusual" and, in some cases, outright "unheard of" to take percentages or likelihood into consideration with myself.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Glad that's the one I got from the library. So you don't think the human race is doomed by thyroid deficiency?

If pottenger's cats are any indication, we *are* doomed. Starr just isn't very creative in the problem solving department. I still love my Starr book, because it makes it crystal clear that dd has serious thyroid issues. I should post some pictures comparing her to the ones in the book...


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Glad that's the one I got from the library. So you don't think the human race is doomed by thyroid deficiency?

I think the Starr book has some great info for diagnostic purposes, as Shannon says. But I think his basic premise is flawed, that for most people, hypo is the primary cause, not just another thing that goes off when you have a cascade of system failures. It may be the primary thing for some people, but his science is bad - he assumes when things tend to go together, that hypo is the cause.

I also think his idea that hormones are the first, last, and only solution is flawed. He quotes all kinds of data from his practice and others, saying "nobody dies, nobody gets diabetes, nobody has heart issues" - oh, except all the people that left. Um, you can't just exclude those folks because they're inconvenient data points







. I think what it means is that for some people, thyroid hormones offer effective, lasting treatment. Dr. K's book suggests he has a practice full of people for whom the hormones didn't work, or didn't keep working. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle - hormones are a fix for some, not for others.

OK, end of Starr rant, LOL. Anyone want my book - it does have some useful pictures!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Yeah, it could be adrenal... I used to drink a LOT of coffee.
At this point in my life, I've personally experienced too many things that are considered "rare" or "unusual" and, in some cases, outright "unheard of" to take percentages or likelihood into consideration with myself.
















Yeah, I hear you! That's like DS, I can't count the number of times he falls into the "10% of ASD kids who don't react like everyone else". You could probably get a doc to run the cytokine tests for you, you have plenty of issues that would justify the testing. Dr. K's approach to autoimmune stuff makes lots of sense to me, and it's all based on relatively inexpensive supps, so fairly easy to try and see if it helps.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I'll have to see if the functional medicine doctor I saw would do the cytokine test. I owe him a visit but it was supposed to happen after a provoked challenge after weaning.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

In trying to recall the name of the Dr. K so I can look the book up again (







), the only name that I can fit to the "K" is Kevorkian... and somehow, I don't think that's it.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
In trying to recall the name of the Dr. K so I can look the book up again (







), the only name that I can fit to the "K" is Kevorkian... and somehow, I don't think that's it.
















http://thyroidbook.com/


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

wrong thread! well, it started on topic and then drifted...


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Some links, just for fun









Regulation of mucin gene expression in human tracheobronchial epithelial cells by thyroid hormone. - also talks about vit A being a regulator as well

http://www.tennantinstitute.com/TIIM...yndrome_X.html
Talks about mucin, low blood pressure leading to high as hypoT progresses, and about mucin leading to insulin resistance. Not heavy on the reference, though









Mucin research group


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

LOL @ JR!!

Carren - just my opinion, but if I were trying to avoid triggering an imminent autoimmune flare-up, the last thing I would do is a metals provocation. You know you have metals, and if you decide to work on them, I don't think the results of a provoked test really change your options. However, the functional med doc is probably the exact right guy to ask to run a cytokines panel.

I go get my thyroid tests done tomorrow morning. Right now what I'm working on is my blood sugar - I've always been somewhat hypoglycemic, and I eat sugar to cope with being tired. When DS was getting up from 2-6am 5 nights a week, that meant a lot of sugar . So, until I get my tests back, I'm assuming I have blood sugar drops triggering adrenal response (and therefore overstressed adrenals), and that's what's going on with my thyroid. I'm also assuming DS needs the same basic eat every 3 hours approach, and DD has always needed it. So family snack all day plan...


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

So yesterday and tonight, I've been unusually warm, and today I got a TON done, just cause. Do i credit focusing on thyroid support, or weird weather? I have a non-mercury basal thermometer, but it seems to have stopped working, oddly enough - it's not digital. Other thermometers either need new batteries or are hiding. The few weeks/months postpartum with ds, though, temps were in the 99 range (normally they're low), so I'm not sure that temps would even be a reliable indicator for me? And supposing they're not, what are other short term sx to watch for changes?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Shannon, how long does it take mucin to go away? That's pretty much the only symptom I can monitor on DS







.

I'm not convinced temping is great for me - it works if I can sit still and not talk for 20 minutes, but like that ever happens! Also, I know morning temps vary during my cycle, do daytime temps?


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

That was a great link about mucin, thanks. So interesting. I do have the arms. How to get rid of it though? Will it go away as you lose weight and exercise?
I discovered this year that my TSH is a little high, but I was/am too scared to start taking a drug that I'd have to be dependant on for the rest of my life. TSH was 5.4--my Dr. said she thought it was okay to wait on the meds and try a multi with iodine and re-test in 6 weeks. I worked more on diet and exercise and when I re-tested it was back down to 2.4.
BUT, I had read that TSH varies with time of day and whether or not you've eaten. My first test was early A.M. and fasting. The follow-up test was at noon. I had read that TSH is higher first thing in the morning and lowers in the middle of the day. So who knows if my lifestyle changes made the better number, or the time of day I took the test?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TopazBlueMama* 
That was a great link about mucin, thanks. So interesting. I do have the arms. How to get rid of it though? Will it go away as you lose weight and exercise?
I discovered this year that my TSH is a little high, but I was/am too scared to start taking a drug that I'd have to be dependant on for the rest of my life. TSH was 5.4--my Dr. said she thought it was okay to wait on the meds and try a multi with iodine and re-test in 6 weeks. I worked more on diet and exercise and when I re-tested it was back down to 2.4.
BUT, I had read that TSH varies with time of day and whether or not you've eaten. My first test was early A.M. and fasting. The follow-up test was at noon. I had read that TSH is higher first thing in the morning and lowers in the middle of the day. So who knows if my lifestyle changes made the better number, or the time of day I took the test?

The two things that I'm hoping will make mucin go away are increasing T3 in the cells, and increasing vitamin A in cells. Weight and exercise shouldn't have anything to do with it.

When I got pg wih ds, my arms and face looked noticeably different at 12 weeks. Not sure when hormone levels start to change significantly, but I'm guessing not before 4 weeks? So 2 months-ish for visible differences? I also didn't notice any symptoms of the mucin leaving, at least nothing that I identified as abnormal at the time...

It sounds like if you have a TSH that's out of range, that's good reason to jump on it. Not necessarily with hormones if you don't want to go that route, but there's lots of nutritional support you can do. The dr k book could help you figure out specifics. Interesting that time of day matters, though! You could always continue with the nutritional support and test again fasting.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Oh yeah. One of the classic symptoms of hypoT is the inability to lose weight, despite diet and exercise. Is that cause low hormone levels make it impossible to make more mitochondria? Or is that cause it's not really fat but mucin, and so it's not the mitochondria that even matter, but hormone levels in the nucleus? Using my mom as an example, I'm going to go with the latter. Which means that just plain exercise wont really make all that much of an impact in the hormone levels, or really even the symptoms, unless it really is your mtDNA that's your weak link. Or you're seriously out of shape and have been for a long long time...


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

That's actually one of my chief complaints now, Shannon. I don't have mucin except for my arms, but it's significantly harder to maintain my weight now than it ever has been. I'm not crazy into exercise, but I'm doing 3 pretty advanced yoga classes a week that make me sweat for an hour at least. And it's worse at some parts of my cycle, so I think it is hormone related, and my adrenals/thyroid giving my body a "hibernate" signal (so I store stuff, instead of burning it).

I think this is where Dr. K talking about getting blood sugar under control (insulin resistance and/or hypoglycemia) really matters, as well.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
That's actually one of my chief complaints now, Shannon. I don't have mucin except for my arms, but it's significantly harder to maintain my weight now than it ever has been. I'm not crazy into exercise, but I'm doing 3 pretty advanced yoga classes a week that make me sweat for an hour at least. And it's worse at some parts of my cycle, so I think it is hormone related, and my adrenals/thyroid giving my body a "hibernate" signal (so I store stuff, instead of burning it).

I think this is where Dr. K talking about getting blood sugar under control (insulin resistance and/or hypoglycemia) really matters, as well.

Yeah... I'm getting the insulin resistance belly, and have mucin on my arms and face. At least for me, the idea that the mucin *causes* insulin resistance fits. All this cell membrane stuff keeps coming up over and over.

So from the outside, how can you tell the difference between fat and mucin? I really think I'm pretty much all mucin and muscle.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Yeah... I'm getting the insulin resistance belly, and have mucin on my arms and face. At least for me, the idea that the mucin *causes* insulin resistance fits. All this cell membrane stuff keeps coming up over and over.

So from the outside, how can you tell the difference between fat and mucin? I really think I'm pretty much all mucin and muscle.









I'd love to know. I had what I think is cellulite on my legs but could be mucin. Definitely mucin on my arms though.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Reposted from chat...

... for those of you who have sleep issues, or kids with sleep issues...

We've been following Dr. K's rules to manage blood sugar (hypoglycemia = sugar cravings, not the insulin resistance stuff). Eat every 2-3 hours, include some protein and fat with every meal/snack, only eat sugar (incl. fruit) with some protein, fat or fibre. If you crave sugar after a meal, it had too many carbs (which means I can't eat a whole meal of pasta, but can do 1/2 pasta, 1/2 salad fine). And trying to do all this without increasing protein intake, particularly for DS.

DS was getting to a weird sleep place again - sleeping no more than 9 hours total a night, and waking up at 2am every night and running down the hall (so wide awake, not groggy and rolling over to go back to sleep). We've been doing the blood sugar stuff for 2 days. DS has slept 8 hour stretches both nights (so made it to at least 5am), stirred, gone back to sleep easily for another couple of hours. Last night he slept 10.5 hours and wanted to sleep longer (woke him up at 7:30, we know better than to let him sleep longer - hopefully it will reset his bedtime instead). This is the way he was sleeping when he weaned, when we were being really careful to feed him every few hours during the day. Over the summer we got lazy, and also did more fruit snacks. I've also noticed that without grabbing sugar to eat, I *need* more sleep - I went to bed at 10pm last night, was only up once at 5am with DS, and could happily have slept longer at 7am when I got up to get DD ready for school.

So it feels for both of us like the blood sugar swings and resulting adrenal swings were decreasing both the quality and quantity of our sleep - and it literally reversed in 24hrs of eating for more stable blood sugar.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Reposted from chat...

... for those of you who have sleep issues, or kids with sleep issues...

We've been following Dr. K's rules to manage blood sugar (hypoglycemia = sugar cravings, not the insulin resistance stuff). Eat every 2-3 hours, include some protein and fat with every meal/snack, only eat sugar (incl. fruit) with some protein, fat or fibre. If you crave sugar after a meal, it had too many carbs (which means I can't eat a whole meal of pasta, but can do 1/2 pasta, 1/2 salad fine). And trying to do all this without increasing protein intake, particularly for DS.

DS was getting to a weird sleep place again - sleeping no more than 9 hours total a night, and waking up at 2am every night and running down the hall (so wide awake, not groggy and rolling over to go back to sleep). We've been doing the blood sugar stuff for 2 days. DS has slept 8 hour stretches both nights (so made it to at least 5am), stirred, gone back to sleep easily for another couple of hours. Last night he slept 10.5 hours and wanted to sleep longer (woke him up at 7:30, we know better than to let him sleep longer - hopefully it will reset his bedtime instead). This is the way he was sleeping when he weaned, when we were being really careful to feed him every few hours during the day. Over the summer we got lazy, and also did more fruit snacks. I've also noticed that without grabbing sugar to eat, I *need* more sleep - I went to bed at 10pm last night, was only up once at 5am with DS, and could happily have slept longer at 7am when I got up to get DD ready for school.

So it feels for both of us like the blood sugar swings and resulting adrenal swings were decreasing both the quality and quantity of our sleep - and it literally reversed in 24hrs of eating for more stable blood sugar.

This could be us. What do you eat for snacks? I am having a hard time figuring out snacks & breakfast for the kids. DD is easier b/c she eats lots of different foots but DS is a bear.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
This could be us. What do you eat for snacks? I am having a hard time figuring out snacks & breakfast for the kids. DD is easier b/c she eats lots of different foots but DS is a bear.

Still working on good snacks. The chickpea fritters I made are awesome, DS has eaten those for snacks 3 days in a row now. We also eat dairy, and that makes a great snack with both protein and fat (yogurt, etc). I mixed up some egg salad today and put it in the fridge, and we just ate a few bites of that on rice crackers. Plan to do the same with salmon and chicken, and other "sandwich" fillings. Pumpkin seed cookies, although I can't overdo those, too many omega 6s. Meatballs (I give DS one of those and then some carbs/fruit as a snack). For DD, peanut butter and apples (DS can't do apples).

Breakfast, we eat lots of things with eggs - dutch babies, french toast, scrambled eggs. Whole grain hot cereal made with milk (do you have a milk sub that is high protein?). We were already doing this for breakfast, because DD doesn't function without a big breakfast with lots of protein. (Hence why I panicked when DS' IgG test showed him reacting to egg, so glad that was a false positive!).

Some of this is easier because we don't have a lot of food restrictions. But I still make pretty much everything DS eats from scratch, so it seems like it could work with food restrictions too.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Still working on good snacks. The chickpea fritters I made are awesome, DS has eaten those for snacks 3 days in a row now. We also eat dairy, and that makes a great snack with both protein and fat (yogurt, etc). I mixed up some egg salad today and put it in the fridge, and we just ate a few bites of that on rice crackers. Plan to do the same with salmon and chicken, and other "sandwich" fillings. Pumpkin seed cookies, although I can't overdo those, too many omega 6s. Meatballs (I give DS one of those and then some carbs/fruit as a snack). For DD, peanut butter and apples (DS can't do apples).

Breakfast, we eat lots of things with eggs - dutch babies, french toast, scrambled eggs. Whole grain hot cereal made with milk (do you have a milk sub that is high protein?). We were already doing this for breakfast, because DD doesn't function without a big breakfast with lots of protein. (Hence why I panicked when DS' IgG test showed him reacting to egg, so glad that was a false positive!).

Some of this is easier because we don't have a lot of food restrictions. But I still make pretty much everything DS eats from scratch, so it seems like it could work with food restrictions too.

Sadly, DS wouldn't eat too many of those things. He's way too picky.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Sadly, DS wouldn't eat too many of those things. He's way too picky.

For breakfast, we do eggy pancakes, dutch babies, breakfast sausage dipped in maple syrup, bacon. I add coconut milk kale for me (and now dh







), and fruit all around. Snacks are leftover breakfast still on the table







What *does* he eat, chlobo? Weren't you saying meat before?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

He'll sometimes eat eggs, although the jury is still out on whether or not they affect him (his sleep hasn't been great). He'll eat turkey sandwiches on crappy rice wrap, he'll eat blender pancakes with syrup. He'll eat chicken & steak. Sometimes he'll eat rice. Sometimes he'll eat green or veggies.

Trouble is that nothing is consistent. It's PIA.

But I need some kind of portable proetin-ish snack for DD too. I think she's hypoglycemic.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

DS was a lot less picky after he weaned, and the default wasn't just to nurse all night if he hadn't eaten enough.

So, got our thryoid panels back. DH is all within Dr. K's functional ranges, which means he's thyroid resistant as a result of adrenal stress/high cortisol. His free T3 is low normal, which is another high cortisol issue (cortisol impacts conversion of T4 -> T3). His challenge will be that a lot of his stress is psychological.

My numbers are all in functional range, except free T3, which is low. And my T3 uptake is very low normal. I think I have two different issues going on (based on those numbers fitting two different patterns Dr. K describes). One is T3 conversion issue due to adrenal stress (which I think I can modulate a lot by dealing with my blood sugar). The second is maybe high estrogen, and this test was taken late in my cycle, when my estrogen should be lower. Methylation should clear that, so I'm going to try upping my B12. I need to test my estrogen levels too, anyone know how to do that?

ETA: Oh, and I have high cholesterol, trying to figure out how that fits in here. It's hereditary for many of the women in my family - both LDL and HDL cholesterol are high (I've had this at least all my adult life). So my ratios are good (better than average), but the LDL is still high, and that might impact cell membrane transport and stuff.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
My numbers are all in functional range, except free T3, which is low. And my T3 uptake is very low normal. I think I have two different issues going on (based on those numbers fitting two different patterns Dr. K describes). One is T3 conversion issue due to adrenal stress (which I think I can modulate a lot by dealing with my blood sugar). The second is maybe high estrogen, and this test was taken late in my cycle, when my estrogen should be lower. Methylation should clear that, so I'm going to try upping my B12. I need to test my estrogen levels too, anyone know how to do that?

ETA: Oh, and I have high cholesterol, trying to figure out how that fits in here. It's hereditary for many of the women in my family - both LDL and HDL cholesterol are high (I've had this at least all my adult life). So my ratios are good (better than average), but the LDL is still high, and that might impact cell membrane transport and stuff.

copper/zinc also affects estrogen balance. the adrenal saliva panels (through canaryclub if your other sources don't have it) usually include sex hormone panels as well.

I think it's the tennantinstitue link from earlier that says high cholesterol is related to mucin. Chris Masterjohn says it's carbs and PUFAs.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

I think in my case the cholesterol was high before the mucin showed up. And I don't really know whether it's an issue or not, with both being high - it always stymies docs when they see it







.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
but other than my mother having her thyroid removed b/c it had a tumor in it I haven't heard of any other familial thyroid issues.

I would say that certainly qualifies as significant family history.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Purple Sage* 
Eta: my blood tests were not "normal" ... Just wanted to clarify since I just realized the title of this thread...uh yeah brain fog









That's okay, still join in! This also applies to you b/c symptoms can still be ignored by doctors even though you are being treated.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

So can I be a mucin sceptic for a minute? I've been watching DS, who definitely has mucin arms. His body temp is normal, his feet and hands are always warm, he shows no other signs I can see of thyroid issues.

I read here that mucin can be a result of inflammation (in this case, asthma in the lungs). Inflammation can also cause thyroid issues, says Dr K. It makes sense to me my son has inflammation (and we're working on that), but if mucin is the only sign of thyroid stuff, is it really thyroid stuff (or really mucin - how does mucin feel different from fat)?

I'm reacting to something in one of the books where someone didn't believe mucin meant thyroid issues because everyone they worked with had thyroid issues. Even if you believe hypoT is an epidemic, it doesn't seem likely 90%+ of us have hypoT, and that seems to be the proportions that have mucin arms. My DD doesn't, but she's so skinny that fat isn't a potential confounder.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

b12 deficiency can mimic a lot of thyroid symptoms
not totally OT, but a bit of randomness


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Ugh, I need several more hours to digest the new posts!!

I will say that hearing that Pottenger's cats were hypoT gave me a chill.

And I don't think Starr's science is faulty, ad hominem, because Broda Barnes had so much success as well. And there are many other doctors today treating the Barnes/Starr/Langer way.

Dr. K says that flooding with more thyroid hormone leads to resistance but I don't see anyone else discussing this. I would think Barnes would have noticed this in his 50+ years of thyroid treatment.

I have a major concern with getting DS growing properly, he has a fixed amount of time until puberty, that is my biggest worry. I have fixed money and access to practitioners as well. Which is not to say methylation won't be a major component of healing for us. I have a big concern for myself in regards to not tolerating large amounts of iodine and what that means for my toxic self.

DS exercises a *ridiculous* amount, every day. Totally not been the answer for him.

I'm with Chlobo, I have exercise intolerance but I push myself anyway and feel sore from it and every step is sometimes a chore. This is relatively new, like in past 3 years for me.

I totally have adrenal issues (and screwed up my adrenal test so have to do another one) and need to gear up more on intensive research on that. Need to get William Jeffries' book


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So can I be a mucin sceptic for a minute? I've been watching DS, who definitely has mucin arms. His body temp is normal, his feet and hands are always warm, he shows no other signs I can see of thyroid issues.

I read here that mucin can be a result of inflammation (in this case, asthma in the lungs). Inflammation can also cause thyroid issues, says Dr K. It makes sense to me my son has inflammation (and we're working on that), but if mucin is the only sign of thyroid stuff, is it really thyroid stuff (or really mucin - how does mucin feel different from fat)?

I'm reacting to something in one of the books where someone didn't believe mucin meant thyroid issues because everyone they worked with had thyroid issues. Even if you believe hypoT is an epidemic, it doesn't seem likely 90%+ of us have hypoT, and that seems to be the proportions that have mucin arms. My DD doesn't, but she's so skinny that fat isn't a potential confounder.

Filed away to ponder and come back to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
b12 deficiency can mimic a lot of thyroid symptoms
not totally OT, but a bit of randomness

THAT's the connection I was looking for


----------



## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

On reading more about B12 deficiency, and knowing that hyperT and hypoT can have "overlapping" symptoms, I wonder if the fact that vitamin B12 has a protective effect against toxicity symptoms of thyroxine (T4) has anything to do with people who are hypoT not feeling better on therapeutic levels (and sometimes below therapeutic levels) of thyroid hormone.
Additionally, I find it interesting to read that magnesium has a similar effect against thyroxine toxicity.

Any chance anyone with a PubMed subscription would check out this article?


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
And I don't think Starr's science is faulty, ad hominem, because Broda Barnes had so much success as well. And there are many other doctors today treating the Barnes/Starr/Langer way.

Dr. K says that flooding with more thyroid hormone leads to resistance but I don't see anyone else discussing this. I would think Barnes would have noticed this in his 50+ years of thyroid treatment.

I think the deal is that different doctors end up with different patient populations, depending on their approach. Starr (and Barnes) get patients where adding thyroid hormone works. Starr occasionally mentions all the bad things that happens to patients that don't stick with him - but he doesn't mention why they left, or whether they're still on thyroid hormones.

Dr. K sees a population that is on thyroid hormone and it's not working. So he sees the people who develop thyroid resistance. It makes sense to me that this happens in people with conversion issues (like my husband and I) - it's like pouring more stuff down a pipe with a bottleneck, but not addressing the bottleneck.

So I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle - for people with thyroid issues, some respond well long term to hormones, some don't. Some can be helped by other approaches (like addressing blood sugar issues, adrenals, or immune system overactivity), some can't. I don't have any problem with a doctor saying, "this is what works for my patients". I don't like it when they conclude their patients are an objective sample of the wider world. (Part of why I don't like Starr's stuff nearly as much. The other reason is that he seems to reject solid science that gets in his way, like HRT having some significant and very important risks - blaming it on "docs seeing what they want to see" - umm, dude, the people doing the HRT studies, the last thing they wanted to discover is that it was bad!).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
On reading more about B12 deficiency, and knowing that hyperT and hypoT can have "overlapping" symptoms, I wonder if the fact that vitamin B12 has a protective effect against toxicity symptoms of thyroxine (T4) has anything to do with people who are hypoT not feeling better on therapeutic levels (and sometimes below therapeutic levels) of thyroid hormone.
Additionally, I find it interesting to read that magnesium has a similar effect against thyroxine toxicity.

Any chance anyone with a PubMed subscription would check out this article?

JR, that article is from 1980, it probably isn't on the internets







.

As for basic nutrients and thyroid stuff, I think minerals and B's are huge - any deficiencies can be a problem. I think the order of stuff is different for different people - for my DS, low B12 is a root cause of a lot of stuff, because of his MTRR mutations. Fixing B12 doesn't fix everything for him, but I can't fix ANYTHING without first addressing B12. B12 won't be nearly as central for some people.


----------



## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
JR, that article is from 1980, it probably isn't on the internets







.

As for basic nutrients and thyroid stuff, I think minerals and B's are huge - any deficiencies can be a problem. I think the order of stuff is different for different people - for my DS, low B12 is a root cause of a lot of stuff, because of his MTRR mutations. Fixing B12 doesn't fix everything for him, but I can't fix ANYTHING without first addressing B12. B12 won't be nearly as central for some people.

It actually is on the intranetwebz (DHs word when I'm being silly about computer stuff "You brokeded your intranetwebz again, didn't you?"







), just not at PubMed. I found several other links to it.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Just lost a huge post.

Sigh.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Ok will try to reconstruct.

RE: whether flooding with thyroid hormone is beneficial

I just had a thought ... wouldn't giving lots of iodine result in flooding with thyroid hormone (if your thyroid gland responds that is)?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
This is what's been playing in my head.

What does the thyroid *do*? There are receptors in the nucleus, which trigger DNA transcription aka protein synthesis aka manufacturing enzymes. And there are receptors to stimulate the mitochondria to grow, aka make more ATP and more Na/K pumps.

Where do the issues come from?
If you don't have enough thyroid hormone in the first place, clearly there's a problem.
If you have enough, but it can't get to the receptors due to bum genetics (there are lots of SNPs on the thyroid receptor gene) and/or the receptors being blocked (by T4?), that's a problem.
If you have the wrong ratios (T3 is way more active than T4) cause, say, you're not converting T4 to T3 (selenium deficiency, right?) then that's a problem.
If you have all good lab tests (not lab standards, the tighter ranges we talk about here) but still have symptoms, then Starr is saying that your issue lies in the mitochondria. According to him, you have 'faulty' mitochondrial DNA, due to generations of modern medicine not weeding the bad stuff out. In that case, normal amounts of hormone just don't cut it and you need more hormone than normal to feel normal.
And then there's toxicities. I haven't read that part yet, but for starters, mercury makes you hang on to arsenic and arsenic depletes selenium.
And there are the endocrine disruptors. I haven't read that part much either, about how the different hormones interact.
Finally, your mitochondrial DNA changes over the course of your life. It's conceivable (though probably doubtful for most) that each kid did get a different set of DNA. It's also possible that it's evolving differently for each as they grow. I'm guessing that's the last angle to look at though









So now we're back to what's the root cause.

For me, I'm thinking there's lots of different deficiencies going on, vit A, iodine, selenium... And that it wasn't a big issue pre-dd, but as she nursed I got more and more depleted to the point that I started crashing with mucin arms. I definitely *did* have issues pre-dd, given my mom's history and what dd looked like as a newborn. (and what I looked like as a newborn) The symptoms are just changing now.

So Starr is essentially talking about a mitochondria deficiency and calling it type 2, because thyroid hormone corrects the deficiency. His book is most helpful to me at this point by pointing out a whole 'nother list of hypo symptoms, and talking about it from this different angle is letting me put a bigger thyroid picture together. HIS explanation is that it's primarily bad mtDNA (or toxicities), and so from the DNA standpoint, the long term extra hormone makes sense. But from Susan Owen's notes from the mito conference she went to a few months ago, the way to fix faulty mtDNA is to exercise.

These are really good points... I need to think about this more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Right. If it can be done for methylation, surely it can be done for thyroid function







. I'll read to understand the science better, then maybe some of the Yasko stuff will apply.

ETA: Reading the book now. I think he may be right about type 2 hypothyroid - but boy, am I underwhelmed by his "it's been around since the dawn of man and we've screwed up natural selection so now all those people survive" theories. (My grad work is in human evolutionary ecology). Lots of logical fallacies (i.e. we discovered Egyptian mummies show signs of arthritis, and since arthritis and hypothyroid are related, hypothyroid must have been around then too).

Was it his book that went into the Graz autopsies which showed that the people dying of heart attacks were ones that had TB in their lungs (and survived)? If they had died like 50% of the population commonly did, they wouldn't have survived to have a heart attack, thus heart disease was supposedly kept low by TB deaths taking them first. And he didn't connect as well the link to heart disease and arthritis that other books have so maybe that is why I bought his argument. I can't remember the connect between TB and hypoT, I believe that was Barnes. I think a lot of what Starr says doesn't go into enough of what Barnes actually proved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So next steps for us - about to walk to the drugstore to get iodine to patch test the family.

the fact that iodine evaporates rapidly is one major reason not to trust the patch test (or iodized salt)... here is Guy Abraham on it:
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/u...2/UNIOD_02.htm

You can certainly can absorb at least some through the skin, I have noticed effects in myself and DS from painting it on as a way of loading iodine into the body.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
some of this is also a balancing act of when is it worth it to just pop the hormones and stop worrying about the cause?

Maybe when you are spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on special food and supps every month and still not reached goal? That's where I'm at right now.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So question - do all of you get oral & armpit temps that are the same? Starr says they should be, standard medical stuff says oral is 1 degree higher. I'm closer to the second. It matters, because for DS, all I can get is armpit.

Oral can be influenced by chronic infection in sinuses I believe. Barnes tested thousands of soldiers by taking their oral, arm and rectal at same time and that is how the Basal Body Temp test was arrived at.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
gonna back up a bit for a bigger picture.

Starr is talking about a not-enough-mitochondria issue. So the question is why isn't there enough, and how do we get more? And one answer is exercise and the other is more thyroid hormone. If you go the hormone route, the question is why isn't there enough, and what do you want to do about it?

In any case, it seems that as you get more mitochondria, especially via exercise, you get healthier, more efficient mitochondria, and the DNA *does* change.

So the hormone route, cause that's what's likely suppressing them in the first place. Either there's not enough hormone stimulating the mitochondria for whatever reason, or there is, but the mtDNA sucks and so it doesn't count and you need more. That's Starr's conclusion. We'll take a look at not enough stimulation cause it's easier to do something about.

Possible reasons:
-Bad receptors on the mitochondria
-Low T3 entering cells
-Low conversion of T4 to T3 in the cells (does this happen in cells or outside them?)
-Low T4 entering cells

And this is where the Dr K book is handy, for the sake of figuring out some of these details, and how to identify which pattern.

he says:
-cellular resistance can be caused by testosterone and high insulin levels (insulin resistance/PCOS), characterized by high-ish FT3 and FT4 can be caused by high cortisol -or- high homocysteine -or- genetic predisposition








-low free hormone but normal total can be from insulin resistance
-low conversion can be caused by high cortisol -or- deterioration of cell membranes

So not much biochem, but it's a great start. Deterioration of cell membranes (pretty vague, huh?) he credits to chronic infection or inflammation/lipid peroxidation.

So where are we? Bring down any high insulin levels, bring down any high cortisol (where does that leave low cortisol adrenal fatigue folks?), reduce infection and inflammation. Support cell membranes and hormone transporters/converters. Sigh. Everything's a symptom of a thyroid problem, and a thyroid problem's just a symptom itself!

Vitamin A appears to affect how well thyroid receptors in the nucleus function. It also appears to be an inhibitor of mucin production. Given that I'm pretty certain that I've had thyroid issues forever, but that the mucin is only showing up now, I'm wondering if it's a low thyroid AND low vitamin A thing? Anyone?

-----------

Okay, on to the membrane proteins.
There are the transporters. That's what you were looking up, yeah Deb? Passive diffusion isn't interesting. Active transport is. Possible variables:
-low cAMP (should be 'jump start'-able?)
-sodium/potassium concentration. Hmm, one thing the hormones do is increase sodium potassium pumps, so in theory, better regulating the concentrations. This might be jumpstartable too, with good electrolytes?
-genetics

There are the converters, the deiodinases. I think there are three of them? lost that link








-SECISBP2 (aka SBP2) is responsible for attaching selenium, and can be broken to various degrees, genetically.
-selenium is key
-dr k says zinc, too

And general membrane health.
-reduce inflammation
-reduce chronic infection (I still don't get what this MEANS)
-reduce lipid peroxidation

Dr K says:
-liposomal cream with glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and phosphatidylcholine.

Yasko says: (deb?)

My knowledge says:
-low PUFAs
-good omega 3:6 ratio
-glutathione

Masterjohn on glutathione (haven't read it yet):
http://westonaprice.org/blogs/the-bi...utathione.html
------------

So then, how do we tell what pattern we're looking at? Guess and check? Where do we start guessing? What do we look for?

K, that's all I got right now. Off for a brisk walk with ds in my new running shoes







Gonna fix that DNA good!

Lordy. Aren't we Energizer Bunny today?!








I think this is a good example of age ... talk to me when you are 8-10 years older like I am now!

Will come back to this.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Part way through the Dr. K book, liking that a LOT more than the Starr book. Plus I already have a drawer full of a lot of the herbs he likes







. He has great info and references on herb function, way clearer than Yasko ever lays it out.

I think we may be dealing with Hashi's here. I took thyroid glandular for 5 days and got hot flashes. And I have three sibs with autoimmune arthritis issues - we have big autoimmune issues all over the family. My sister with JRA always had freezing cold hands and feet, my other sister had 3 babes over 10lbs (last one 13lbs) and gained 90lbs with her last pg (she only weighs 110lbs). So I may just be the one who had no visible autoimmune issues for the longest. I didn't notice any change from adding gluten back in for me after 8mo gluten free, but I wasn't paying attention to cold feet.

I think Vitamin D deficiency also plays - correlated tightly with autoimmune issues, we have both vdr-taq and vdr-fok mutations (impact vitamin D receptors), and heck, I grew up in Canada as a kid who sunburned easily.

So I am going to order thyroid tests for DH and I from directlabs. Looks like I need to piece together several tests to get the right markers. Is this a complete list of what I need to know?

- TPO antibodies
- TSH
- free T3 & T4
- reverse T3

I'm also going to check our vitamin D levels.

Your family hx is interesting. Could be Hashi's that meant why you weren't tolerating small amounts of thyroid hormone (except that supp that other glands in it too right?)

As far as I can remember the main reasons mentioned for not tolerating thyroid hormone supps are:

- toxicities
- adrenal issues
- poor conversion of T4 to T3. I keep meaning to look into this too, so please remind me. I think something like it's not getting into cells properly so the heart rate increases or something?

The inflammation/oxidization theory is an interesting one too. Langer uses multiple antioxidants and connects environmental toxicities to Hashi's.

There are 2 standard antibodies to test, see here:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/

But there is also another "muscle" antibody implicated in Hashi's that I wonder is an issue with the Fibromyalgia/RA folks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 

And another question to ponder.

Who is a prime candidate for thyroid hormone therapy? Which kids? How can you tell? Who is it *necessary* for?

I'm wondering, with my mom's clear thyroid symptoms, and my issues from the get go, I'm assuming my thyroid receptors have not been happily triggered my entire life. If mom's thyroid status affect's baby's thyroid development, then is it safe to assume my thyroid is underdeveloped? As is dd's?
http://72.148.194.153/research/burro...al_thyroid.pdf

*Though, if blood tests are normal, then the hormone levels are fine and it's a different issue.* But I wonder, if supporting everything else, if the thyroid then wouldn't be able to keep up with the actual real demand of a healthy body, and *that's* when extra hormones are necessary? And how do you find that point? Would labs show low values then? Forgetting the logistics of getting the right hormones, would it make more sense to start high, then drop the dose as you get proper support in place, or to try and maximize your own production and then do hormones for that last little bit?

No, if blood tests are normal it doesn't mean the thyroid putting out what you need. The cell doors could just be shut and thus the blood levels are artificially normal.

I've only heard that the "uptake" lab test is useless but wondering what it is exactly. There's gotta be a test to tell us how much is getting into the cells, no?

I have a concern with DS's pituitary b/c he had a bad fall down stairs when young, bonking his head twice. Like I said, I feel like we have so many issues he is at the point where I'm ready for hormone therapy for him so he has a chance at a healthy life not riddled by allergies/intolerances, respiratory issues and reduced growth. It's also available to us, and the mito/DNA testing and a bazillion more supps than we are already doing are not so that is why we are at this point.

I wish I could answer it from your perspective though, that would be better to be able to make that determination more clearly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
I'm allergic/intolerant to aspirin (derived from white willow bark)..

Makes sense from an impaired thyroid standpoint as this is a salicylate. I've not heard that TH1/TH2 theory though, that is fascinating.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So can I be a mucin sceptic for a minute? I've been watching DS, who definitely has mucin arms. His body temp is normal, his feet and hands are always warm, he shows no other signs I can see of thyroid issues.

Well as I understand it, the allergies and food chemical intolerances, as well as being on the spectrum, are connected. Also, I don't know how his growth is doing, that and respiratory issues, frequent colds, are another issue with my DS.

And I can't stop thinking about the fact that it has been mentioned that the thyroid in large part controls the absorption of nutrients as well as the elimination of toxins. Both key factors in our DS' health? What if yes, the genetics are showing an elevated need, and toxicities are coming up high, but this has been caused by low thyroid?

Not to mention Pottenger's Cats dx hypoT.

This is where I am now, very confused by the whole chicken vs. egg of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
I read here that mucin can be a result of inflammation (in this case, asthma in the lungs).

Well it seemed to me based on the thorough description of mucin revealed in autopsies and animals who got thyroidectomies that the cause of mucin is well known unlike that article states.

The problem is that modern medicine has ignored myexdema as a clinical sign of hypoT. It's all around and no one recognizes it?

Is it asthma the root cause or is hypoT causing a bodily state that leads to allergies/asthma? At what point do we know too much about the minute mechanics of it in modern day medicine that we miss the forest from the trees?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
how does mucin feel different from fat)?

For me it's the difference between my inner thigh (not a mucin area) and upper arm (typical mucin area). The skin and fat in inner thigh feels way different.


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Oral can be influenced by chronic infection in sinuses I believe. Barnes tested thousands of soldiers by taking their oral, arm and rectal at same time and that is how the Basal Body Temp test was arrived at.

_I guess I'm a bit sceptical... I believe that may well be what he found in fit young male soldiers, but I can think of lots of reasons that make me different from a fit young male soldier that might result in normal different oral & underarm temps. (more body fat under my arms, less blood circulated to power big shoulder/arm muscles, testosterone differences, temperature of surrounding air (which impacts oral temps more than armpit, etc)._

Your family hx is interesting. Could be Hashi's that meant why you weren't tolerating small amounts of thyroid hormone (except that supp that other glands in it too right?)

As far as I can remember the main reasons mentioned for not tolerating thyroid hormone supps are:

- toxicities
- adrenal issues
- poor conversion of T4 to T3. I keep meaning to look into this too, so please remind me. I think something like it's not getting into cells properly so the heart rate increases or something?

_I'm in the poor conversion camp (and no Hashi's). Most T3 is converted inside the cells, so it's an issue with cell membranes and/or inner cell function. According to Dr. K, conversion issues are just a symptom of adrenal stuff through, so I'd be that as well. As far as I know, I'm pretty clean on metals toxicities.

If you believe Dr. K, most hypoT falls into one of your three categories or Hashi's, and he doesn't think thyroid hormone is helpful in those cases. So I think it's a matter of how you think the world of hypoT people divide up into the various possible causes.
_

Well as I understand it, the allergies and food chemical intolerances, as well as being on the spectrum, are connected. Also, I don't know how his growth is doing, that and respiratory issues, frequent colds, are another issue with my DS.

_I clearly have a fragile kid, but he is now clear of most food intolerances, clears metals decently, has functional methylation, no respiratory issues, gets no sicker than "typical", and has always grown well. So unless I buy that autism == hypoT, then I don't really see anything besides mucin arms.
_

And I can't stop thinking about the fact that it has been mentioned that the thyroid in large part controls the absorption of nutrients as well as the elimination of toxins. Both key factors in our DS' health? What if yes, the genetics are showing an elevated need, and toxicities are coming up high, but this has been caused by low thyroid?

Well, most of his issues have resolved really nicely with improved methylation, supporting his genetics. I'd think if thyroid was the root cause, we'd see less improvement until we address the root issue (thyroid). That said, DS doesn't tend to fit many of the "typical ASD" issues, so what is true for him and true for the average kid on the spectrum may differ.

_Based on Dr. K's stuff, my speculation is that DS has mild adrenal issues caused by blood sugar stuff (my root issue as well). He and I both have a genetic mutation that puts stress on the adrenals, and then he and DH share some pancreatic mutations that impact blood sugar, among other things. So I can see how that could turn into hypoT, but it makes sense to me that it would be a secondary symptom, not the cause._

Well it seemed to me based on the thorough description of mucin revealed in autopsies and animals who got thyroidectomies that the cause of mucin is well known unlike that article states.

The problem is that modern medicine has ignored myexdema as a clinical sign of hypoT. It's all around and no one recognizes it?

_OK, but 90% of us?? I agree that mucin in the face and stuff is clear thyroid issues - but the idea that it first appears on forearms and that is a clear and unequivocal sign of thyroid issues seems to be more isolated to Starr (and maybe Barnes?)._

Very interesting stuff to think about, thanks for chasing us down this path, Jane!


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 

For me it's the difference between my inner thigh (not a mucin area) and upper arm (typical mucin area). The skin and fat in inner thigh feels way different.

different how?


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Lordy. Aren't we Energizer Bunny today?!








I think this is a good example of age ... talk to me when you are 8-10 years older like I am now!

Will come back to this.









I got a free afternoon and my head loves to hyperfocus!









Quote:

Well it seemed to me based on the thorough description of mucin revealed in autopsies and animals who got thyroidectomies that the cause of mucin is well known unlike that article states.

The problem is that modern medicine has ignored myexdema as a clinical sign of hypoT. It's all around and no one recognizes it?
okay, so where, exactly did the mucin => hypo stuff come from? I can easily see hypo => mucin, but what about the other way around? Im not challenging, just haven't come across it yet and want to read it for myself. And I don't anticipate another free afternoon to go find it myself...
Deb, is ds good on vit A? Cause that connection seems pretty strong/researched as well.

Quote:

Is it asthma the root cause or is hypoT causing a bodily state that leads to allergies/asthma? *At what point do we know too much about the minute mechanics of it in modern day medicine that we miss the forest from the trees?*
A big







Though for me, I seem to need to understand the trees before I can trust the forest


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Bought a thermometer, got home, found the missing one







and took oral temps laying in bed when dd wasn't falling asleep. 96's for me, 98.2 for dd. She has serious mucin, and clearly looked like a hypo baby. Her butt's been cold at night lately, but she's also been a little heater since before she was born. I have more food issues than she does. I don't know what to think. Is this her healing faster than me? Can you even be hypo with normal temps (and no sinus issues)?

I've been doing lots of selenium and iodine lately, and those pass through into milk. I'm feeling better, though not amazing, and will be getting thyroid labs done again asap. 96.6 seems awfully low! Wondering/hoping labs show something interesting with all this support I'm doing!


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
okay, so where, exactly did the mucin => hypo stuff come from? I can easily see hypo => mucin, but what about the other way around? Im not challenging, just haven't come across it yet and want to read it for myself. And I don't anticipate another free afternoon to go find it myself...
Deb, is ds good on vit A? Cause that connection seems pretty strong/researched as well.

Everything I've read says mucin is a symptom, not a cause, but maybe I missed something.

DS gets enough vite A for a normal kid, but maybe not enough for him. I just increased, we'll see what that does. (I've always stayed easy on A because it can deplete K).

Dr. K says thyroid stuff is secondary to adrenals, and it wouldn't suprise me if some babies are hypothyroid because their mamas rode on their adrenals the last few months of pg. But once that isn't happening any more, perhaps their adrenals can recover and remove the source of the hypoT?


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Very interesting stuff to think about, thanks for chasing us down this path, Jane!

Hmmm, didn't think about the soldiers vs. mama differences









From what I know about testosterone that stimulates thyroid hormone and thus increases body temps so it would be moot since the thyroid would therefore be working more efficiently/effectively?

Surrounding air temps wouldn't make a difference (except there has been several references that people do worse in winter and some need more hormone supplemenation b/c their thyroid cannot compensate and raise body temps to match colder weather). That is why you leave the thermometer in the armpit for 10 mins so as not to have surrounding temps influence it.

I think the more blood circulation issue was addressed by the experiment on implanting mouses tails into their bodies (thus raising the temps)? I've never seen fat vs. muscle compared as far as heat. Maybe oral is best I don't know, my oral and armpit are within a few tenths of degrees of each other.

But it seems to me that cold back, cold butt and cold extremities are conclusive. My DS used to be a total heat box when he was younger too. And he didn't sweat. Now he sweats and tends towards cold extremities unless exercising.

I like your theories (adrenal and blood sugar and pancreatic) yet still wonder how much of that has root in thyroid malfunction as has been shown by the correlation in these books. (Still mad I can't quote from Starr's outline of Philpott's _Victory over Diabetes_ on google books b/c that discussion of how thyroid impacts pancreas and blood sugar was so interesting.)

It's so hard to determine. I think a lot is just simply not known we have to go by our informed mama instinct. At least I feel like there is a lot that I don't know. I'm looking forward to the next appt with the dr. that knows about adrenal issues in children. I have a lot to learn on that front.

Your DS is remarkably better with all the incredible work you have done. I wouldn't do anything different in your case, I mean you can't argue with success! We've had success in some supps and some removing food chemicals so that DS sleeps like a rock, learns well and is a exceptionally lovely child 95% of the time but as far as other issues (growth, respiratory, making more headway on intolerances) we are failing miserably.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
different how?

Oy, what a question! My inner thigh skin is "rolly" and loose even though there is fat there, and it looks like the "normal arm skin" when pinched.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I got a free afternoon and my head loves to hyperfocus!









okay, so where, exactly did the mucin => hypo stuff come from? I can easily see hypo => mucin, but what about the other way around? Im not challenging, just haven't come across it yet and want to read it for myself.

I think in Starr's book where he describes autopsies?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Deb, is ds good on vit A? Cause that connection seems pretty strong/researched as well.

Also giving large amounts of D depletes vit. A. And fevers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
A big







Though for me, I seem to need to understand the trees before I can trust the forest









Believe me I can understand that, although I reach a point where I can go bonkers with it too and become paralyzed. It's so hard to have this responsibility and only a little knowledge it seems!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Can you even be hypo with normal temps (and no sinus issues)?

I've been doing lots of selenium and iodine lately, and those pass through into milk. I'm feeling better, though not amazing, and will be getting thyroid labs done again asap. 96.6 seems awfully low! Wondering/hoping labs show something interesting with all this support I'm doing!

I don't know for sure but it seems to be repeated over and over again by all these thyroid hormone docs that temps are only one bit of the puzzle. Determination should be made with due weight given to all these:

- temps
- clinical examination and symptoms
- bloodwork
- family history

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Dr. K says thyroid stuff is secondary to adrenals, and it wouldn't suprise me if some babies are hypothyroid because their mamas rode on their adrenals the last few months of pg. But once that isn't happening any more, perhaps their adrenals can recover and remove the source of the hypoT?

Well that's definitely us, DS was clearly an adrenally depleted baby from day one. Wasn't it Dr. K who said these babes will never recover.









I need to learn more on adrenals. The thyroid docs say its the other way around and that the adrenals can prop up the thyroid and release more of its hormones to increase metabolism, but only for so long.

I would say also it seems to me that at face value Dr. K's approach hasn't been followed patients long term either? Not that I don't appreciate his approach, it just still niggles at me whether is the ultimate solution or not. Possibly a combo of both depending on symptoms? I guess this is hard to detemine for the next many years while we do the work.

I really appreciate you all going on this journey and talking things out with me! It's been hard on my own, and I learn so much from all of you. So glad I finally sucked you into the discussion.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Everything I've read says mucin is a symptom, not a cause, but maybe I missed something.

DS gets enough vite A for a normal kid, but maybe not enough for him. I just increased, we'll see what that does. (I've always stayed easy on A because it can deplete K).

Dr. K says thyroid stuff is secondary to adrenals, and it wouldn't suprise me if some babies are hypothyroid because their mamas rode on their adrenals the last few months of pg. But once that isn't happening any more, perhaps their adrenals can recover and remove the source of the hypoT?

I'm curious to see what more A does for him! Definitely report back.

The tennantinstitue link does some interesting finger pointing at mucin, but I'm not sure how much I trust it.

So dd... Very absolutely has the hypo look. Mucin arms, super chubby, looked exactly like the 'cretinous' baby in Starr's book, only not so extreme. Has the flat bridge of the nose (is that normal for kids?) and narrow eyes, sometimes more than others. Has the cheeks, and the sagging chin/neck. One of her baby pictures is so totally hypo looking. She was born 10#, 10 days 'late' and grew FAST. Short arms and legs, low estrogen, I think. Craved seaweed, fish, roe, etc once she started solids. Cold butt. Has always, always, always been a heater and prefers sleeping with no covers. One temp data point (while high on b12) is 98.2.

Me: no mucin (I don't think) pre-dd, didn't gain weight the whole 3rd trimester with her, never had that burst of energy 2nd tri, but wasn't super tired the whole pg either. Definitely low on iodine, likely low on selenium. Mucin showed up slowly postpartum, as did food reactions. Definite adrenal issues, though they never crashed to the point of fatigue or exercise intolerance. Not sure where my adrenals are now. Consistently low temps.

Any hypotheses? Interesting tests to run?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Wait, where is 90% of people having mucin arms coming from? I don't recall that at all.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I think to detemine adrenal issues, WhoMe, there is the Dr. Rind metabolic temp graph and/or saliva testing.

re: heater with a cold butt
I've been like this and wondered if that is adrenals kicking in. There are times when I'm so hot I throw off the covers yet my back and butt are cold. It seems like I can be BOTH heat and cold sensitive. Just complete temp dysregulation!

re: flat nose
That's a hard one to say because as much as I see the plain differences in that pic of the girl who changed with thyroid supp, it seems like a typical baby face does have a flattened bridge.

I have pics of DS where he is completely round! He grew super fast as well. Always 90% percentile for both height/weight.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I like your theories (adrenal and blood sugar and pancreatic) yet still wonder how much of that has root in thyroid malfunction as has been shown by the correlation in these books. (Still mad I can't quote from Starr's outline of Philpott's _Victory over Diabetes_ on google books b/c that discussion of how thyroid impacts pancreas and blood sugar was so interesting.)

It's so hard to determine. I think a lot is just simply not known *we have to go by our informed mama instinct*. At least I feel like there is a lot that I don't know. I'm looking forward to the next appt with the dr. that knows about adrenal issues in children. I have a lot to learn on that front.

Thanks for that!

Oy, what a question! My inner thigh skin is "rolly" and loose even though there is fat there, and it looks like the "normal arm skin" when pinched.

I don't know for sure but it seems to be repeated over and over again by all these thyroid hormone docs that temps are only one bit of the puzzle. Determination should be made with due weight given to all these:

- temps
- clinical examination and symptoms
- bloodwork
- family history

Well that's definitely us, DS was clearly an adrenally depleted baby from day one. Wasn't it Dr. K who said these babes will never recover.









I need to learn more on adrenals. The thyroid docs say its the other way around and that the adrenals can prop up the thyroid and release more of its hormones to increase metabolism, but only for so long.

I really appreciate you all going on this journey and talking things out with me! It's been hard on my own, and I learn so much from all of you. So glad I finally sucked you into the discussion.









I've got mucin thighs too then.









I was absolutely an adrenally depleted baby. Early high school was my zen, likely high cortisol period when nothing could stress me out. I have hormones in my future, don't I?

I wonder if I could get dd on board for a thyroid panel for her? It could be so telling.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I think to detemine adrenal issues, WhoMe, there is the Dr. Rind metabolic temp graph and/or saliva testing.

re: heater with a cold butt
I've been like this and wondered if that is adrenals kicking in. There are times when I'm so hot I throw off the covers yet my back and butt are cold. It seems like I can be BOTH heat and cold sensitive. Just complete temp dysregulation!

re: flat nose
That's a hard one to say because as much as I see the plain differences in that pic of the girl who changed with thyroid supp, it seems like a typical baby face does have a flattened bridge.

I have pics of DS where he is completely round! He grew super fast as well. Always 90% percentile for both height/weight.

Soon, I'm going to put together a collection of pics of dd, comparing her to the ones in the book. Cause seriously, she's like the poster child. Haven't measured her lately (she's scared of the doctors office), but she was always 95th for height, and double off the charts for height. Like there's the space between 50th and 95th on the charts? She was that high ABOVE the top line.

Now that I have a thermometer, I'm going to take a million temps for me and see what they say. I'm tempted to do another saliva test, but I don't want to pay for it, so we'll see what I can figure out without it.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
We've had success in some supps and some removing food chemicals so that DS sleeps like a rock, learns well and is a exceptionally lovely child 95% of the time but as far as other issues (growth, respiratory, making more headway on intolerances) we are failing miserably.

When you talk about growth issues, what do you mean?

Oy, what a question! My inner thigh skin is "rolly" and loose even though there is fat there, and it looks like the "normal arm skin" when pinched.

My inner thigh is very loose & pinchable. The skin on the back of my arm is only pinchable in about a 3 inch blob. Is that what you mean?

Also giving large amounts of D depletes vit. A. And fevers.

D depletes fevers? What does that mean? What do you use for a vitamin A supplement since I'm now taking huge doses of Vit D?

Well that's definitely us, DS was clearly an adrenally depleted baby from day one. Wasn't it Dr. K who said these babes will never recover.










What does an adrenally depleted baby look like?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Your thigh is loose and pinchable, too? There's no place that I can get less than an inch, and most places it's closer to two... I don't think that's anything new on my thighs, either. I don't remember ever having loose skin, really. Weird.

About to hand off my copies of Starr and Dr K to my doc for reading up before my appt next week.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

I have pinchable on my thighs, belly, anywhere that has loose skin (underarms). It's only "mucin like" on top of muscles where skin is tight (biceps, thighs).


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
When you talk about growth issues, what do you mean?

I'll repeat it here for other mamas even though I emailed you. Hey, I was making cake and pizza for the party we went to tonight!









DS only grew 1 1/4" last year. His growth curve is slowing but I'm not sure of %. We are going in for a height check in Oct/Nov. His father is 6'3" and my brother and father are 6'1". He had a slow down when he was 3 and then I took a bunch of foods out and adding WAPF nutrition, he started growing better. Now slowing again. His teeth are talking a super long time coming in.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
My inner thigh is very loose & pinchable. The skin on the back of my arm is only pinchable in about a 3 inch blob. Is that what you mean?

Yes totally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
D depletes fevers? What does that mean? What do you use for a vitamin A supplement since I'm now taking huge doses of Vit D?

No, sorry I wasn't clear... fevers deplete vitamin A. And large amounts of D require more A according to WAPF. (For the record the dude at The Vitamin D Council thinks retinol is the devil and we shouldn't be taking any of it).

I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
What does an adrenally depleted baby look like?

I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
We need to get together & have a mucin pinching party. So we're all on the same page.

I think I love you. And yeah, we totally do. Shall we all take pictures and post to fb?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.

I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.

I need to hook myself up with that A.

As a babe, I *never* napped, my mom wouldn't call me colicky, though, cause I didn't fit like 2 of the 10 symptoms of the list







She felt better than ever before in her life 2nd tri; I refused solids till I finally 'gave in' at 8mo. Never seemed happy, always frustrated, except for the day after learning a new skill. Was tall but thin (75%/25%).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?

I'll wait and see what my results say. That's probably the only way to even have a chance with her, though. Thanks!

And yeah, high high cortisol, like resistance stage/cushing's is super calm, nothing can stress me zen. Then it crashes and EVERYTHING becomes irritating.







I remember doing a stress test freshman year, and I scored rock bottom. One (type A) friend was shocked so I really took a hard second look, and yeah, none of that stuff phased me in the least. Sooooooooooooo not true anymore


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
WhoMe:

ZRT does bloodspot testing for thyroid if your DD would handle that better:

http://www.zrtlab.com/test-kits/bloo...ting-kits.html

Wait... high cortisol means you are zen?

Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
DS only grew 1 1/4" last year. His growth curve is slowing but I'm not sure of %. We are going in for a height check in Oct/Nov. His father is 6'3" and my brother and father are 6'1". He had a slow down when he was 3 and then I took a bunch of foods out and adding WAPF nutrition, he started growing better. Now slowing again. His teeth are talking a super long time coming in.

No, sorry I wasn't clear... fevers deplete vitamin A. And large amounts of D require more A according to WAPF. (For the record the dude at The Vitamin D Council thinks retinol is the devil and we shouldn't be taking any of it).

I do liver, egg yolks and CLO for my A. Carlson's also makes a true retinol A.

Link please.

I think an adrenally depleted babe is restless, cannot calm easily or sleep well, cranky, colicky, allergies.

This makes me sad because it describes DD. She was unsettled, allergies, took 3 years to sleep through the night, has sensory issues and I think she's having growth issues, if he declining height % is any indication.

This means that DS probably has issues too.

Do you think those bloodspot tests are accurate?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.

I do think they're accurate, I researched them when I did fingerspot IgG testing for DS. Yasko's genetics test is a fingerstick as well. The only issue is not to squeeze the finger too much, just let the blood flow naturally.

Note, however, that doing these tests is not necessarily easy - it takes quite a bit of time to get enough blood to fill up the paper dots (like 90 seconds maybe, with a totally cooperative child and a good fingerstick). During which you need to hold the finger and aim the blood (less than simple on a wiggling, protesting, unhappy child).


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Do you think those are accurate? I'd love to had a bloodspot for Vitamin D. My DD doesn't do well with blood draws.

The Vitamin D Council guy recs ZRT for testing D.

Here is vitamin A
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/13728?at=0

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/14656?at=0

they do also make a palmitate (synthetic) one so make sure you *don't get that one*.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
This makes me sad because it describes DD. She was unsettled, allergies, took 3 years to sleep through the night, has sensory issues and I think she's having growth issues, if he declining height % is any indication.

This means that DS probably has issues too.









Yup, I know exactly how you feel. None of this is fun is it.

I'm ready now for the big payoffs to this hard hard work. Any day now. Like right now. Here we are universe! Yooohooooo!
















s Ok I'm a little goofy tonight.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
The Vitamin D Council guy recs ZRT for testing D.

Here is vitamin A
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/13728?at=0

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vi...els/14656?at=0

they do also make a palmitate (synthetic) one so make sure you *don't get that one*.

Just to clarify, the way to tell is: natural = retinyl while synthetic = retinol, correct?


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

So having had thyroid symptoms for years, and my numbers finally agreeing with me, the doctor put me on meds. How do you get them to dose you based on symptoms vs. numbers? And how often do you cahnge dosages to get it right? The doctor never said I had to come back before next year's physical. Shouldn't they at least be checking numbers before then? I'd really like to have them play around with them until I have no symptoms but not sure if that's going to happen.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
So having had thyroid symptoms for years, and my numbers finally agreeing with me, the doctor put me on meds. How do you get them to dose you based on symptoms vs. numbers? And how often do you cahnge dosages to get it right? The doctor never said I had to come back before next year's physical. Shouldn't they at least be checking numbers before then? I'd really like to have them play around with them until I have no symptoms but not sure if that's going to happen.

luck + sheer tenacity OR switching to a dr recommended by another patient as doing so
blood level changes lag about 6 weeks after dosage changes... this means both that you start feeling "better" and/or feeling "worse" before your bloodwork says you do, ime about a month, sometimes more before a change will show in bloodwork. They're supposed to check blood levels 6 weeks after a dosage change/implementation of treatment. I'd call and nag him (and expect this to be indicative of your relationship with him from now on







).
Do you know your "numbers", Kathy?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.

Yeah, probably


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

linking this here, too, cause it's got some interesting stuff obn the mechanisms of how hypoT symptoms come about:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
linking this here, too, cause it's got some interesting stuff obn the mechanisms of how hypoT symptoms come about:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml

Also, just a note that Ray Peat lives in Eugene, OR...


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

My TSH was 8-something. That's the only thing I remember. But it seems odd that the doctor didn't want to see me back to see if my numbers got better, to make sure I was on the right dosage. It seems like everyone else I know that went on meds, got checked, and it had to be adjusted. And it would be nice if it was adjusted to symptoms, not numbers. Though I'm not sure I can find a doctor like that...


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
My TSH was 8-something. That's the only thing I remember. But it seems odd that the doctor didn't want to see me back to see if my numbers got better, to make sure I was on the right dosage. It seems like everyone else I know that went on meds, got checked, and it had to be adjusted. And it would be nice if it was adjusted to symptoms, not numbers. Though I'm not sure I can find a doctor like that...

The Broda Barnes Foundation is in CT, there's gotta be some doctors there that will do that!
http://www.brodabarnes.org/

Here's one
http://www.gotodrdoyle.com/the-great...-barnes-md.php

It might also be beneficial to search the physician locator at Armour Thyroid. Even though you are not using it, the docs that are listed tend to treat to symptoms.
http://www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

So I've been doing some intense thyroid support these last few weeks. Mostly, brazil nuts and iodine, and in for the past couple of days I've been taking 1 iodoral. Now, I'm not being scientific about it AT ALL, but temps at the beginning were in the 96.6 range. A few days ago it was 97.something, and just now (while slowly walking around/getting dressed) 98.9. Is it something I'm detoxing/reacting to (entirely possible, I've been playing with my gut *and* trailing dairy) or do you think I might see thyroid results that fast?

I'll start temping more regularly and see what shows up!


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Question about D K. book.

So let's supposed I'm HypoThyroid secondary to pituitary malfunction probably exacerbated by adrenal fatigue.

I supposed it would be bad to take thyroid glandulars? Until you straighten other stuff out?

Sadly there are no doctors in my area that have taken his seminar. Sigh.

No, Dr. K says don't take thyroid, because it's not actually your thyroid that has issues (or not the first problem - I'd guess in some of these cases addressing one layer might run you into another one).

However, I'd think it makes total sense to take pituitary glandular. (Just pulled out my Dr. K book, he says so too). In theory, if you can support your pituitary to put out more TSH, your thyroid should do it's thing.

Dr. K's other stuff - mag, zinc, manganese - are you good on those?
Rubidium - no idea. Sage leaf, L-arginine (I wouldn't take this unless you were way low on arginine on your UAA), gamma oryzanol (don't know anything about this, he says it's an antioxidant). I'd just make sure your minerals are OK for now.

Hey - were you high in antimony? Antimony totally )%*#@)$*# with magnesium utilization. If you are dealing with antimony (which would make sense with blocked methylation), up your P5P, it make a world of difference for DS when he was antimony toxic (helps carry mag into cells).


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
So I've been doing some intense thyroid support these last few weeks. Mostly, brazil nuts and iodine, and in for the past couple of days I've been taking 1 iodoral. Now, I'm not being scientific about it AT ALL, but temps at the beginning were in the 96.6 range. A few days ago it was 97.something, and just now (while slowly walking around/getting dressed) 98.9. Is it something I'm detoxing/reacting to (entirely possible, I've been playing with my gut *and* trailing dairy) or do you think I might see thyroid results that fast?

I'll start temping more regularly and see what shows up!

When I supplemented vits and minerals meant for my thyroid, it took about 2 weeks to see a change--it was a fairly dramatic change all at once, not gradual. I was starting from a much more depleted place, I think, than you are now, so I'd say it's pretty plausible.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
When I supplemented vits and minerals meant for my thyroid, it took about 2 weeks to see a change--it was a fairly dramatic change all at once, not gradual. I was starting from a much more depleted place, I think, than you are now, so I'd say it's pretty plausible.

Last night, temp was back down, and this morning it was 97.2. So still higher than it was, but nowhere near normal yet. I'm wondering if I was just fighting a bug or something yesterday.

It's interesting how you think I'm less depleted than you were and so should see faster change. Right now, my best guess is that a totally messed up gut is creating chronic stress, which is what's constantly pulling me down (adrenals and thyroid). With the additional nutritional drain of pg/nursing, my body can't keep up, and so I'm getting depleted more and more on top of it. So while I can correct individual deficiencies pretty easily with the right supp, it's still not addressing my gut, so I still have all these issues that just won't go away. Fixing my gut is feeling like moving a mountain and it just won't budge. But I still have hope!


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
No, Dr. K says don't take thyroid, because it's not actually your thyroid that has issues (or not the first problem - I'd guess in some of these cases addressing one layer might run you into another one).

However, I'd think it makes total sense to take pituitary glandular. (Just pulled out my Dr. K book, he says so too). In theory, if you can support your pituitary to put out more TSH, your thyroid should do it's thing.

Dr. K's other stuff - mag, zinc, manganese - are you good on those?
Rubidium - no idea. Sage leaf, L-arginine (I wouldn't take this unless you were way low on arginine on your UAA), gamma oryzanol (don't know anything about this, he says it's an antioxidant). I'd just make sure your minerals are OK for now.

Hey - were you high in antimony? Antimony totally )%*#@)$*# with magnesium utilization. If you are dealing with antimony (which would make sense with blocked methylation), up your P5P, it make a world of difference for DS when he was antimony toxic (helps carry mag into cells).

Well I thought I was god on mag but that whole discussion about absorbing it made me wonder. I can only take about 800mg via natural calm.

I'll check antimony later.

I emailed two of the guys they recommended who do phone consults. They sound interesting.


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## subtlycrunchy (Jul 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Well I thought I was god on mag but that whole discussion about absorbing it made me wonder. I can only take about 800mg via natural calm.

I'll check antimony later.

I emailed two of the guys they recommended who do phone consults. They sound interesting.

You could also check out Women to Women in Yarmouth, Maine. They do phone consults and have what looks to be an excellent natural thyroid support program... Hypothyroidism (low thyroid function) in women


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
*It's interesting how you think I'm less depleted than you were and so should see faster change.* Right now, my best guess is that a totally messed up gut is creating chronic stress, which is what's constantly pulling me down (adrenals and thyroid). With the additional nutritional drain of pg/nursing, my body can't keep up, and so I'm getting depleted more and more on top of it. So while I can correct individual deficiencies pretty easily with the right supp, it's still not addressing my gut, so I still have all these issues that just won't go away. Fixing my gut is feeling like moving a mountain and it just won't budge. But I still have hope!

I guess I assume that based on how, in general, you seem to react pretty quickly when you change either a vit/min supp or do stuff like adrenal support. I mean, I felt better when I cut out gluten and dairy, and it was noticeable w/i just a few days, but I was supplementing really high doses of a lot of vitamins and minerals, I think well-balanced, and sleeping a whole lot more (back then I was in bed by 9:30 at the latest), and snacking regularly, and it took months for me to start feeling better after the initial gfcf bump--in terms of things like not getting the shakes so easily after I over-exerted myself physically (walks w/ kids that went too long), stuff like that. I just didn't see any change (except for gfcf) for a long time, and what I did see was very slow, it felt like molasses. That's why I assume what I assume--whether it's correct or not, that's harder to say.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
I guess I assume that based on how, in general, you seem to react pretty quickly when you change either a vit/min supp or do stuff like adrenal support. I mean, I felt better when I cut out gluten and dairy, and it was noticeable w/i just a few days, but I was supplementing really high doses of a lot of vitamins and minerals, I think well-balanced, and sleeping a whole lot more (back then I was in bed by 9:30 at the latest), and snacking regularly, and it took months for me to start feeling better after the initial gfcf bump--in terms of things like not getting the shakes so easily after I over-exerted myself physically (walks w/ kids that went too long), stuff like that. I just didn't see any change (except for gfcf) for a long time, and what I did see was very slow, it felt like molasses. That's why I assume what I assume--whether it's correct or not, that's harder to say.

And I noticed nothing whatsoever in myself when going gfcf. I'm sure part of it is genetic tendencies, and part metals in the gut messing with digestion vs metals elsewhere messing with enzymes.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

My very thyroid knowledgable RD says low ferritin is a sign of gut damage and she usually sees it in gluten intolerant people.

I haven't checked my ferritin again since I've been gluten free, that would be interesting.

DS's is low and he's been getting trace gluten with his father.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
My very thyroid knowledgable RD says low ferritin is a sign of gut damage and she usually sees it in gluten intolerant people.

I haven't checked my ferritin again since I've been gluten free, that would be interesting.

DS's is low and he's been getting trace gluten with his father.

My ferritin level is within conventional levels but still very low. I have never tried supplementing. It has gone up since going gluten free but I'm sure it's still out of the functional range.

What does your thyroid RD say about the type 2 & Dr. K theories?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
What does your thyroid RD say about the type 2 & Dr. K theories?

I gave her Dr. K's book b/c she has Hashi's. We haven't had a chance to discuss in depth, but she thought it was interesting. Natural thyroid, supplementing and gluten free works for her, she has no antibodies now.

I haven't talked to her about Type 2. She referred us to the allergy/thyroid expert and it was my hope to address with him.


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I gave her Dr. K's book b/c she has Hashi's. We haven't had a chance to discuss in depth, but she thought it was interesting. Natural thyroid, supplementing and gluten free works for her, she has no antibodies now.

I haven't talked to her about Type 2. She referred us to the allergy/thyroid expert and it was my hope to address with him.

Is that Dr. LaCava? Are you meeting with him soon?


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Subbing.

Got my Thyroid results today. I came in at 1.48 so low but within normal range. I still feel like something is wrong with me.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
Subbing.

Got my Thyroid results today. I came in at 1.48 so low but within normal range. I still feel like something is wrong with me.









Yeah, TSH by itself means nothing, did you get any other numbers tested? Like free T3, free T4, reverse T3 and antibodies?

I am convinced the bladder issues I had are connected to low thyroid as well since Dr. Mark Starr's book also tells about clinical findings and research studies connecting the two.


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Jane I am not sure.

I pulled out written paperwork from March. Back in March it shows a test for TSH, 3rd Generation. That level was 1.62.

If it was the same test done this time, it has dropped (now at 1.48).


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

There are so many problems with just testing TSH. It is a pituitary hormone, not a thyroid hormone.

Your body could not be converting the T4 into T3 (the active form) and therefore the TSH doesn't rise b/c it thinks it has plenty of T4 (the storage form).

You could have lost the feedback between the hypothalamus in brain and the pituitary, so the pituitary doesn't know it needs to make more thyroid hormone, so TSH remains low.

The TSH also means nothing about whether your body's cells are actually using the thyroid hormone. (Symptoms are key here especially basal body temps on 2nd and 3rd day of menses.) If the cells are not accepting it in or not using it (mitochondial and receptor issues) then the blood levels of thyroid hormone remain high and the TSH never rises b/c it doesn't know the cells actually need more.

All cells of the body need thyroid hormone, that is why there are so many symptoms that can appear with low thyroid.

Functional thyroid doctors review all signs to make a determination including:

- symptoms
- family history
- complete thyroid bloodwork, not just TSH
- clinical exam of patient


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

So I am going round and round with my Doctor.







What tests exactly do I need?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

If you are having problems, I would get another doctor that looks beyond the usual and px's natural thyroid hormone instead of synthetic.

Recommended tests here:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

How much do the symptoms of vit A deficiency overlap with those of low protein synthesis due to thyroid resistance? Like if you take the mitochondria stuff out of the thyroid picture, how do you differentiate between not enough T3 in the nucleus vs not enough vit A?


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

That's a very good question! I was just thinking about nutritional foundations again b/c of the post I just made re: Pottenger's cats in the chat thread. I was going to order that B12 book too.

Vitamin A is involved in synthesis of protein and also glycogen so the muscle issues and blood sugar problems connected to hypoT may have origin there? Also the mucus membranes of intestines are effected. And vit. A is involved in making white blood cells and immune system. I believe myelin sheath disorders are also effected by A deficiency.

also zinc carries A out of liver stores
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamina.asp

I've always been interested in xerophthalmia/dry eyes b/c that is known as a symptom of thyroid disorders and is due to vit. A deficiency .... as thyroid is involved in converting beta carotene to vitamin A. My sister has it and also exophthalmia/bulging eyes. I don't know how asleep her dr. is at the wheel but I know her eyes have greatly changed in her lifetime.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Vitamin A and thyroid hormone are both involved in protein synthesis. Zinc is also needed. T3 stimulates sodium/potassium pumps, and affects water balance.

When I get vitamin A, I get really tired and it's fixed by potassium and HVBO. I get SUPER dehydrated. And start needing a TON of zinc (90mg/day). I think I've hit on something big here! Now if only I can figure out a way to get that liver down the hatch on a more regular basis! And how to hydrate with tons of electrolytes. I want to play with being super consistent about getting lots of vit A/water/electrolytes/zinc, and see what happens to things like mucin and food sensitivities for me. I'm totally inspired and with the promise of foods back, dh is actually on board









I'm also realizing that I'm not ready to work on CCK yet. I need to get the thyroid/vit A/protein synthesis stuff under control first. Every time I do something with the enzymes, it bites me.


----------



## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Vitamin A and thyroid hormone are both involved in protein synthesis. Zinc is also needed. T3 stimulates sodium/potassium pumps, and affects water balance.

When I get vitamin A, I get really tired and it's fixed by potassium and HVBO. I get SUPER dehydrated. And start needing a TON of zinc (90mg/day). I think I've hit on something big here! Now if only I can figure out a way to get that liver down the hatch on a more regular basis! And how to hydrate with tons of electrolytes. I want to play with being super consistent about getting lots of vit A/water/electrolytes/zinc, and see what happens to things like mucin and food sensitivities for me. I'm totally inspired and with the promise of foods back, dh is actually on board









I'm also realizing that I'm not ready to work on CCK yet. I need to get the thyroid/vit A/protein synthesis stuff under control first. Every time I do something with the enzymes, it bites me.

















I







you, seriously! I get SO dehydrated by vit A!! I had no idea what to do about it!


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 















I







you, seriously! I get SO dehydrated by vit A!! I had no idea what to do about it!

Wait, really? I thought I'd mentioned that one before, it first showed up right before ds was born. Its kind of a leap, assuming that vit a also affects Na/K pumps, but it seems to fit for me. Does increasing thyroid support do the same thing?

I want to find a list of symptoms that might show up when correcting certain deficiencies, but I have no clue where to even start with that one!

-----------

I wonder, people who need high doses of thyroid, how much pushing one thing can make up for a deficiency in another. I wish I could play with this thyroid/vit a connection more!


----------



## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Wait, really? I thought I'd mentioned that one before, it first showed up right before ds was born. Its kind of a leap, assuming that vit a also affects Na/K pumps, but it seems to fit for me. Does increasing thyroid support do the same thing?

I want to find a list of symptoms that might show up when correcting certain deficiencies, but I have no clue where to even start with that one!

-----------

I wonder, people who need high doses of thyroid, how much pushing one thing can make up for a deficiency in another. I wish I could play with this thyroid/vit a connection more!

No... I get super-dehydrated from being hypo though.. cannot drink enough.
Which now makes me wonder if pushing A would be a GOOD idea..


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
No... I get super-dehydrated from being hypo though.. cannot drink enough.
Which now makes me wonder if pushing A would be a GOOD idea..

I wonder if its a synergistic thing, A uses up T3 and T3 uses up A? So when you're hypo, that's like getting more A? That wouldn't fit with my Na/K pump theory, though.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm subbing. Between adrenal and thyroid, something is f-ed up in my body







I have the mucin thing mentioned in the first post. I have quite a lot all over my body actually. Recently my hair has been falling out like crazy. I have so many symptoms relating to thyroid, but nothing has been verified.
Its funny, the mention of the myxedema reminded me of my mother. She always used to say that my siblings and I were sturdy kids, could never pinch an inch on us. I wonder if that was mucin accumulation? My sister was born with half of a thyroid,so it stands to reason she might have myxedema.

Anyway, couple caveats on my health: I have a fast heart rate, I have low blood pressure, I'm at a healthy body weight, "normal" cholesterol, and I have no digestion issues. I just have no zest for life, no sex drive, premature grey hair, thinning hair, fatigue, moody, dry skin, scalloping on my tongue that has just became prominent in the past year, keratosis pilaris, missing half of my eyebrows, ...oh and my butts always cold








Sigh...my last tsh test was 2.something. I need to get the newest results with all the other numbers soon. They hadn't phoned me, so I assume they were "normal". If this is my normal...


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
My numbers are all in functional range, except free T3, which is low. And my T3 uptake is very low normal. I think I have two different issues going on (based on those numbers fitting two different patterns Dr. K describes). One is T3 conversion issue due to adrenal stress (which I think I can modulate a lot by dealing with my blood sugar). The second is maybe high estrogen, and this test was taken late in my cycle, when my estrogen should be lower. Methylation should clear that, so I'm going to try upping my B12. I need to test my estrogen levels too, anyone know how to do that?

Well, update on my experiment. I started on some adrenal support supps, but mostly just started managing my blood sugar better. And I started taking the guggulu Dr. K recs for better T3 conversion, and taking reservatrol for my cholesterol.

Been doing that for a couple of weeks now - and my temps have plummeted (midday temps down to the 96's, from 98.1). Which is not the direction I wanted them to go. I thought it might be some sort of adjustment period, or because the weather got cooler, but it didn't get better on a couple of warm days last week.

Temps were through the floor for the last couple of days, and I'm ovulating - when estrogen is naturally highest. That got me wondering, what if my primary thyroid issues aren't adrenal, they're high estrogen related (which suppresses thyroid function). Yeah - reservatrol & guggulu are both estrogen agonists. ARGH. So I've been making my problem worse, not better (which lines up with the dropping temps). Which bites, because it's likely been with me a long time (I have endometriosis, not serious, but there, and lifelong awful cramps) - so it's not something recently broken.

Anyone else on the estrogen & thyroid piece, or are the rest of you dealing with adrenal stuff? Gotta go read more (and research all the other supps I take to see what else might be estrogenic). Estrogen clears through methylation, so I think I need to push more B12 (ha, you just knew that was gonna come back to bite me, LOL).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 















I







you, seriously! I get SO dehydrated by vit A!! I had no idea what to do about it!

Me three! I've been drinking massive amounts the past two weeks - I thought it might be because dandelion root is a mild diuretic.

Shannon, how does this relate to ACE++ mutation (which causes us to retain sodium and dump potassium)? What do you take to up your potassium? I'm good on K2 (butter & supps).


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
r three! I've been drinking massive amounts the past two weeks - I thought it might be because dandelion root is a mild diuretic.

Shannon, how does this relate to ACE++ mutation (which causes us to retain sodium and dump potassium)? What do you take to up your potassium? I'm good on K2 (butter & supps).

I don't know about the estrogen connection, I'm low there if anything. And I think I'm ACE--, so no help there either. For potassium, I've been juicing, eating tomatoes and kohlrabi, and if I can handle the sugar, coconut water.


----------



## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
I don't know about the estrogen connection, I'm low there if anything. And I think I'm ACE--, so no help there either. For potassium, I've been juicing, eating tomatoes and kohlrabi, and if I can handle the sugar, coconut water.

I eat lots of tomatoes right now, so that should be good. Pretty much every last thing I started taking for adrenal supports raises estrogen - so for me, that's not the route to go for addressing my thyroid stuff. I need to deal with the excess estrogen and support my adrenals by stressing them less, rather than via direct supports, I think. Tomorrow, I'll pull everything I was taking (I think!) that would raise estrogen or act as an estrogen agonist, and see how that impacts my temps.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neverdoingitagain* 
I'm subbing. Between adrenal and thyroid, something is f-ed up in my body








I have the mucin thing mentioned in the first post. I have quite a lot all over my body actually. Recently my hair has been falling out like crazy. I have so many symptoms relating to thyroid, but nothing has been verified.
Its funny, the mention of the myxedema reminded me of my mother. She always used to say that my siblings and I were sturdy kids, could never pinch an inch on us. I wonder if that was mucin accumulation? My sister was born with half of a thyroid,so it stands to reason she might have myxedema.

Anyway, couple caveats on my health: I have a fast heart rate, I have low blood pressure, I'm at a healthy body weight, "normal" cholesterol, and I have no digestion issues. I just have no zest for life, no sex drive, premature grey hair, thinning hair, fatigue, moody, dry skin, scalloping on my tongue that has just became prominent in the past year, keratosis pilaris, missing half of my eyebrows, ...oh and my butts always cold








Sigh...my last tsh test was 2.something. I need to get the newest results with all the other numbers soon. They hadn't phoned me, so I assume they were "normal". If this is my normal...









Born with half a thyroid? I never heard of that. I wonder how that happens? Definitely your family's Achilles heel then.

Yeah, it sounds like something is going on for sure, those are a lot of symptoms... have you ever taken your BBT's? My butt is cold now too.









Fast heart rate and low blood pressure, I don't know what that means but it probably means something.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Geez mamafish, this is so complicated! I tried guggulu a long time ago and it was murder on my stomach, ouch.


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Going to the Doctor tomorrow afternoon. Wish me luck.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

good luck!

cold butt, fast pulse, low BP here, too.

I think it was starr's book maybe that talks about low BP being a precursor to the high BP that's more common with hypoT?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Geez mamafish, this is so complicated! I tried guggulu a long time ago and it was murder on my stomach, ouch.

Yeah, tell me about it. I learned a lot about the estrogen stuff way back when I was diagnosed with endo, but pretty much ignored it since then. But the sharp dive in my temps when I started taking all this stuff seemed to be a sign of heading the wrong way, LOL. DH seems fine on the guggulu (and he has a more clear case of thyroid issues caused by adrenal stress), so I'll leave him on it for now.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

From what I've read before, high heart rate and low bp could indicate hyperthyroidism or anemia. I've never been anemic, even while pregnant so I doubt that would cause it. Couple other causes mentioned are internal bleeding, infection, trachadyia, and postprandial hypotension? the last one was mentioned by someone who was diabetic(insulin resistance anyone?) caused by long term damage of high blood sugar level.
Interesting.
Its seems like one big jigsaw puzzle. Thyroid issues caused by insulin issues, insulin issues caused by thyroid issues, insulin and thyroid issues caused by...? I'm sure vitamin D is in there somewhere because its in everything







And how about other hormones? Is there a hormone inbalance causing the thyroid and insulin issues? Are the hormones out of whack because of thyroid issues?








I feel like I have to tackle not one, not two but 3 or 4 different issues at once. One is hard enough if you know what you're dealing with. 2-3 maybe more unknowns? I just wish I had some answers.
Today was a holiday so I'm phoning tomorrow to get my results(aka. book an appointment







)


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
good luck!

cold butt, fast pulse, low BP here, too.

I think it was starr's book maybe that talks about low BP being a precursor to the high BP that's more common with hypoT?

When you put it that way, I've had those symptoms most of my life. lol.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Faster heartrate can be a signal of low ferritin:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Faster heartrate can be a signal of low ferritin:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/

La la la. I'm not listening.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Faster heartrate can be a signal of low ferritin:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/

And low ferritin can be a busted gut lining with too much cell turnover.

Time to go dig up gut healing foods!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes and also low body temps and low stomach acid can lead to low ferritin as well.


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

I have a questio.

Could I be perimenapause instead of a thyroid problem?

http://www.34-menopause-symptoms.com/


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
I have a questio.

Could I be perimenapause instead of a thyroid problem?

http://www.34-menopause-symptoms.com/

Kat, I've been reading a lot about this. Dr. K's thyroid book talks about thyroid issues secondary to high estrogen, and I think that's what's going on for me. I've always been mildly high estrogen, but I suspect now that DS finally weaned (about 4 months ago), my non-pg, non-nursing self is likely in perimenopause, and I have more estrogen than I need. (This is an alternative view of menopause, mainstream med says the symptoms are from dropping estrogen, so they supp estrogen, e.g. HRT, phytoestrogens).

Things I'm looking at to correct this - getting all phytoestrogens out of my supps (they apparently make you feel better short term, but prolong the issue), taking some supps to encourage/balance progesterone, improving methylation and bile to make sure estrogen gets cleared better, taking DIM which is a supp that is supposed to shift the balance towards better forms of estrogen.

A lot of what I was taking for adrenal support has estrogens/phytoestrogens in it, so I need to get those gone, they seem to be making things worse. And my multi has lots of "stuff for women who are 40" - estrogens, sigh.

A couple of sites I've been reading around on:

http://www.womentowomen.com/
http://drlam.com/


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Back from the Doctor. She doesn't think all of my issues are in my head. That is a relief.









So I am having an ultrasound on Friday morning for possible Gall Bladder problem.

This afternoon went for additional blood tests. Apparently my Vitamin D levels went WAY down.







They are at 20 now. She doesn't know if it is tied to my weightloss (down almost 60 pounds) or if it is tied to my parathyroid.


----------



## hibana (Jun 9, 2006)

Poking my head in here to say that Lyme disease can mimic low thyroid function. I was certain I was hypothyroid for over a year but it was really persistent Lyme.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

So what did you do and what symptoms were resolved?

I have heard in passing that viruses are the only other thing that can cause low body temps/low metabolism. Maybe Lyme also does that in some way?

Perhaps it does interfere with thyroid hormone function, so it's not necessarily "not" a thyroid problem?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hibana* 
Poking my head in here to say that Lyme disease can mimic low thyroid function. I was certain I was hypothyroid for over a year but it was really persistent Lyme.

Yes, can you tell us how you finally got diagnosed and what they did to fix it?


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Viruses and autoimmune issues can impact thyroid, I think it's through either impacting the thyroid directly or the pituitary.

People with poor methylation function are more susceptible to chronic viral infection and autoimmune issues, so that connects here too.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Faster heartrate can be a signal of low ferritin:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
And low ferritin can be a busted gut lining with too much cell turnover.

Time to go dig up gut healing foods!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes and also low body temps and low stomach acid can lead to low ferritin as well.

I just developed a crack on the side of my mouth. Which can be a symptom of...dundun..dun...b-vitamin and iron deficiency.
whats that test called to check? Ferritin test?
So weird. I follow the primal blueprint which means I eat a lot of meat and fat. Seems odd that I would be low in iron. If this the case, then I guess I'll be adding floradix to my diet and see what happens then.
I have an appt. tomorrow to get my test results.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes ferritin test or if you have other sx of iron deficiency I would ask for a full iron panel.

Maybe stomach acid would be a factor for you. My DS eats more red meat than I believe it or not, he's a meat machine! and his ferritin is lower than mine.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neverdoingitagain* 
I just developed a crack on the side of my mouth. Which can be a symptom of...dundun..dun...b-vitamin and iron deficiency.
whats that test called to check? Ferritin test?
So weird. I follow the primal blueprint which means I eat a lot of meat and fat. Seems odd that I would be low in iron. If this the case, then I guess I'll be adding floradix to my diet and see what happens then.
I have an appt. tomorrow to get my test results.

Low ferritin despite good intake -> look at gut health. cracks on the corners of your mouth -> riboflavin (b2) for me and can be induced by vit A. They work together so one can use up the other. In dd, riboflavin shows up as bright red lips. Check mucous membranes (inside eyelid, inside of mouth, etc) - iron they would be pale vs b2 they might be redder than normal.


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Low ferritin despite good intake -> look at gut health. cracks on the corners of your mouth -> riboflavin (b2) for me and can be induced by vit A. They work together so one can use up the other. In dd, riboflavin shows up as bright red lips. Check mucous membranes (inside eyelid, inside of mouth, etc) - iron they would be pale vs b2 they might be redder than normal.

My gums and tongue are pale. I guess the inside of my eyelid







is pale. Lets not go there, don't ask me to play with my eyes...please don't







Sounds like low ferritin. Does thyroid misfunction cause malabsorption of ferritin or is a something such as an allergy? You mentioned gut health so I'm wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg.


----------



## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neverdoingitagain* 
My gums and tongue are pale. I guess the inside of my eyelid







is pale. Lets not go there, don't ask me to play with my eyes...please don't







Sounds like low ferritin. Does thyroid misfunction cause malabsorption of ferritin or is a something such as an allergy? You mentioned gut health so I'm wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg.

From what I've read, ferritin is stored in the gut lining, so presuming you're releasing it from the food you're eating it in (iow, have good HCl) and absorbing it, low ferritin levels indicate that the gut lining is turning over too quickly. The most common cause of that would be irritation.

Dunno the specifics of how thyroid stuff plays in. Just that ferritin is used to make thyroid hormones, and a symptom of thyroid stuff can be food sensitivities.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:

Why do we often have low Ferritin? Because being hypothyroid can result in a lowered production of hydrochloric acid which in turn leads to the malabsorption of iron. It can also lower your body temperature (common for those on thyroxine, as well) which causes you to make less red blood cells. Additionally, being hypo can result in heavier periods, which causes more iron loss.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

Got back from the doctors office with my test results. My iron levels from my last set was in the high range(didn't test last time). My vitamin D levels went from 39 to 103 (yey!) My TSH went from 2.79(? something like that) to 1.19. My t3 levels are a little low, and everything seemed normal otherwise.
In other words, I'm a hypochondriac crackpot who should just take a multi-vitamin


----------



## hibana (Jun 9, 2006)

answering the question...

I had Lyme 2 1/2 years ago. Got a tick, flu-like symptoms, migrating pain, the rash, tested positive, etc. Had abx for 3 weeks. Felt great for a couple of months. Started feeling crappy after that, tired all the time, mental fog, memory loss, weight gain, dizzy spells, heart palpitations, headaches, light & sound sensitivity, dry skin, facial tics, hair falling out, libido gone, depressed & anxious, all of this coming on very gradually. (I have a list of about 45 symptoms that I made over the course of a couple of months, but the hard drive I saved it on is acting up)

I bounced around my family practice trying to get someone to acknowledge that I was sick. My thyroid numbers were fine. Everything looked great. They said I couldn't still have Lyme. After the second scary multi-hour dizzy spell they sent me to a cardiologist who could find nothing wrong with me. (I think if he had done some more advanced tests he would have eventually found something, but he obviously thought I was a hypochondriac) Finally I went to a very good endocrinologist on my own, who did lots more bloodwork and confirmed that my thyroid was fine but said I was obviously ill with something, but he had no idea what.

Knowing that my Lyme had not been properly treated I contacted ILADS and am now seeing a Lyme-literate doctor who immediately understood what I described and said that I absolutely still have Lyme. Right now I'm on two abx, a restricted diet, probiotics and supplements.

So I've just begun this, and I'll let you know how it goes. Back to your regularly scheduled thyroid discussion.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
I have endometriosis & high estrogen symptoms, and then got some thyroid issues secondary to that (high estrogen impacts thyroid hormone cell entry & conversion to active hormone T3).

I have recently started taking vitex/chaste berry - it's an old herbal remedy used to balance hormones. It can apparently take 3-6 months to see full effects, but I'm getting some nice PMS relief and thyroid symptom relief and I've only been on it 2.5 weeks. It sounds like it's commonly used for PCOS:

http://pcoscoach.com/vitex.html

Anyhow, it might give you a place to start while you await a specialist apt.

This is from another thread but was very interesting so I thought I would discuss here...

MF,
What kinds of thyroid sx are resolving?
You are so good at finding this kind of stuff!


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hibana* 
Poking my head in here to say that Lyme disease can mimic low thyroid function. I was certain I was hypothyroid for over a year but it was really persistent Lyme.

My SIL, who's had chronic lyme for like 15 years, was just diagnosed with Hashimotos, and she said that it's common for lyme to cause it. So you could have both. I have low thyroid and lyme as well.

So I just want to say... about 4 years ago I started having the complaint of sputtering periods, which I called ellipsis, you know . . . (literary humor, pathetic, I know), anyhow I'd have it for 3 days, off for 2-3 days, back on for 2-3 days, off a couple days, on a couple more. So by the end I'd have 2 weeks of period, 2 weeks of no period, repeat. A PITA, can I just say. So my doctor said it was just because I was getting older.







And I said, then how come no one I know who's the same age (or even a little older) has this issue? So my thyroid numbers have always been fine, until my physical in September. So I got some compounded thyroid. I've been on them a month, had my period, and it was ... yes, normal. 4-5 days. No sputtering. Not as heavy as it has been. Coincidence? So I've never heard that as a thyroid symptom but it seems entirely too coincidental to me.

I also have the cold butt, low temps, low bp, etc. Also, since being on Tamoxifen (only 8 days) my appetite shot up. And then I stopped that and started the thyroid meds, and my appetite is still up there. So is there something about thyroid and hunger? I've never been a big eater, and often wouldn't eat until 2 in the afternoon because I just wasn't hungry. But like this morning I had poached eggs on "toast" with hollendaise, and a side of sauteed potatoes and mushrooms, then went to the kitchen and cleaned out the sauce bowl with another piece of "toast" and was still hungry. Totally not normal for me. And I don't want to suddenly gain weight because my thyroid is being fixed!


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
This is from another thread but was very interesting so I thought I would discuss here...

MF,
What kinds of thyroid sx are resolving?
You are so good at finding this kind of stuff!









LOL - I am the google research queen









The key was Dr. K's book pointing out that one possible pathway to hypoT symptoms is high estrogen. With a history of endometriosis, that went *click* for me. And in my case, the high estrogen symptoms long predate the hypoT symptoms.

I don't have a lot of hypoT symptoms, primary ones are low body temp and cold hands/feet. However, when I started on some adrenal supports Dr. K recommends (I thought that pattern fit my thyroid numbers better at first), my daytime body temps plummeted 1.5 degrees. Turns out most of them are estrogenic. Took them out, added vitex & progesterone cream, body temps normalized over about a week. However, I only use the progesterone cream in the 10 days after ovulation, so as not to mess up my cycle. Stayed on the vitex though - my idea is that i will go off the cream once vitex is enough to keep my temps stable (apparently it can take 3-6 months to build up to full effect).

I've been off the cream for a week now, had way better PMS than usual, and my mid-afternoon temps have been 98.4, so very close to normal. Sometimes I have cold hands and feet in the morning (I take the vitex with breakfast), and my waking temps are still a little low, but a lot better than they were.

So I think for me, estrogen balance is the key, perimenopause is probably impacting that, and hypoT sypmtoms are just a secondary effect. However, lots of us are in perimenopause age ranges, so even for those of you where hypoT has been around a lot longer, this might be worth considering. Also, a LOT of supps are estrogenic, so you could easily make things worse (as I found out the hard way)!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes, "ellipses"







and other menstrual (also early puberty and late puberty!) is associated with thyroid disorders:
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/menstruation.htm


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
So I think for me, estrogen balance is the key, perimenopause is probably impacting that, and hypoT sypmtoms are just a secondary effect. However, lots of us are in perimenopause age ranges, so even for those of you where hypoT has been around a lot longer, this might be worth considering. Also, a LOT of supps are estrogenic, so you could easily make things worse (as I found out the hard way)!

Very, very interesting. What's the best source of Vitex info you came across? It is an adaptogen type herb right? So not necessarily just for high estrogen? Years ago, my hormones were tested, I was normal estrogen, low progesterone and high testosterone.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Very, very interesting. What's the best source of Vitex info you came across? It is an adaptogen type herb right? So not necessarily just for high estrogen? Years ago, my hormones were tested, I was normal estrogen, low progesterone and high testosterone.

I had high testosterone last time I checked too.

So I crystal tested holding the Dr. K book and it was a "yes". Just not sure how I should proceed.


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

I should probably get my hormones tested again.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Low thyroid = low hunger since you're not actually using energy properly.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I had high testosterone last time I checked too.

So I crystal tested holding the Dr. K book and it was a "yes". Just not sure how I should proceed.

I do plan to reread that one with different eyes now that I have more research under my belt. I think I just learn slow or something.









I emailed his office for the practitioner list and of course there are none in MA. And it also said they require 6 mos to a year appt. commitment and if you don't agree to that, go get another practitioner!


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Very, very interesting. What's the best source of Vitex info you came across? It is an adaptogen type herb right? So not necessarily just for high estrogen? Years ago, my hormones were tested, I was normal estrogen, low progesterone and high testosterone.

I just did a google search - it's actually a herb I already knew about in a fertility sense (just did a bunch of research on that for my SIL). I figured it couldn't hurt to try, and it's clearly impacting my PMS and temps in a positive way. With my son, I research the heck out of stuff, with me, I just try and see what happens.

Yes, it's an adaptogen, particularly good for low progesterone and balancing estrogen & progesterone. I'm not actually sure I'm high estrogen, I could just be oversensitive to estrogen (receptor oversensitivity, vs. high estrogen). It's better to think of it as imbalance, vs. absolute numbers, at least based on what I've read - and vitex helps with the balancing. Guessing it would work with testosterone as well, but I haven't read about it in that context.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
I had high testosterone last time I checked too.

So I crystal tested holding the Dr. K book and it was a "yes". Just not sure how I should proceed.

Um, read the book again







Too funny. Do you ask your crystal questions, maybe change the question a little?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
I should probably get my hormones tested again.

What was dominent when you last had them done? Wait you were a high testosterone too right? I wonder what causes that...


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Yes, it's an adaptogen, particularly good for low progesterone and balancing estrogen & progesterone. I'm not actually sure I'm high estrogen, I could just be oversensitive to estrogen (receptor oversensitivity, vs. high estrogen). It's better to think of it as imbalance, vs. absolute numbers, at least based on what I've read - and vitex helps with the balancing. Guessing it would work with testosterone as well, but I haven't read about it in that context.

I think so b/c I remember it was a common herb rec for PCOS women.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I do plan to reread that one with different eyes now that I have more research under my belt. I think I just learn slow or something.









I emailed his office for the practitioner list and of course there are none in MA. And it also said they require 6 mos to a year appt. commitment and if you don't agree to that, go get another practitioner!









What does that mean? 6 mos to a year? You mean you have to go to them for a year?

I emailed two the practitioners they recommended that do email consults. One struck me as kind of a meathead. I don't think Deb was impressed either. The other one seemed better to me but he's in Simi Valley CA and I can't imagine he'd be expensive. But there was one person on some thread (maybe this one) who tried his protocol and actually felt better, even though she had lyme as well. So I'm kind of willing to try. I'd much rather go see someone who is familiar with it than have to try to train another doctor.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Um, read the book again







Too funny. Do you ask your crystal questions, maybe change the question a little?

Well I'm a very indecisive person and just having a crystal tell me to do it probably won't be sufficient. lol. I'm not adventurous in the health care department. I'd be moreso if DS would just wean.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm supposed to be working but had to post Chris Masterjohn's blog on leptin and thyroid interaction:

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/is-insulin-resistance-really-making-us.html

I wonder who this clinician is? I have very high reverse T3. I don't know how to "clinically fix the leptin resistance" but I think I need to be reading Mastering Leptin

Quote:


> you need to read Byron Richards book called Mastering Leptin. Great read and well researched. Leptin resistance is manifest by a super high reverse T3. The total thyroid panel can be in normal range but the patient is still hypothyroid. Leptin reistance also slows conversion of t4 to t3. Interestingly you should clinically fix the leptin resistance and not alter the thyroid panel until the leptin issue is dealt with. I do this with patients everyday but so few docs understand this biochemistry and how to use it clinically


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I have a high reverse 53 ratio. When you figure it out, let me know.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

The RT3 Group people say it's adrenal or iron which would certainly fit in my situation

http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/whatare1.htm

I'm going to have to get that leptin book, not much time to read lately tho!


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## zanelee (Nov 29, 2003)

OK. I've read most of this thread, and am really a bit confused.

Background:
I have always (For over 10 years) thought I had hypo, but the labs were always withing normal limits. 

I have so many symptoms, and now after reading here, there are so many more....

(I'll go into all the symptoms if anyone would like...)

Where do I start?

I'm also worried about my children. That they may possibly have taken this on through me.

My grandmother was hypo, and was on synthroid as long as my mom can remember back, and my mom is in her 70's. So, I think I'm hitting on something here.

I bought some iodoral, but was unsure about taking it...so it sits there on my shelf. I'm also having secondary infertility and am getting older, so I'd really like to start fixing this now. I've come to the conclusion that it will be me fixing me, not a doctor, because they don't believe me. So...someone please offer some guidance.

Thanks!


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Anyone else see this post?
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1272
My labs are similar, I know I'm low iron, I do better supping copper with my zinc and I easily get symptoms of riboflavin deficiency. I think I might need to read more of this blog and find that book!


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I've been feeling hypothyroid again, so I asked for the doc to test my thyroid. Test results for TSH came bak at 0.73. She said it's normal, so everything is fine. Argh!


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## neverdoingitagain (Mar 30, 2005)

I have a mystery like that too Babygrant. My TSH isn't even as low as yours! I started supplementing a B-vitamin complex and iron(bisglycinate amino acid chelate if you need to take iron) Now after reading the last link, I think I may start supping a zinc/copper chelate.

My next doctors appointment will include a cortisol test.


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## Marnica (Oct 4, 2008)

Jumping in here -

I have read a good part of this thread, but it's a bit long so if this has been covered already, my apologies, just link to the relevant post!

After years of no doc taking me seriously, I have found an alternative MD who specializes in thyroid and adrenal issues. I have been diagnosed subclinical hypothryroid and have been on Armour for about 6 weeks now. Also have low cortisol and DHEA levels. Doc wanted me to start on DHEA supplements and Cortisol. I initally didn't want to, and agreed to take isocort instead. I then discoeverd I was pregnant and didn't take anything but the armour. This doc says that a pregnant woman can take both cortisol and dhea in pregnancy as long as levels are monitored closely. He even showed me some medical literature to support this but i just didnt feel comfortable so declined.

I ended up miscarrying at 7 weeks, so now I have just begun on both the cortisol and the DHEA. My last blood tests showed even worse numbers for both so I felt I needed to do something. I had known about the sluggish adrenals for a while and have taken supplements for it for the last year, but they were not helping.

My question is has anybody here had experience with cortisol or dhea supplementation? if so what were your experiences.

Thanks


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

A mucin update









I was thinking my thyroid symptoms were likely either vitamin A deficiency (it's a cofactor for thyroid hormone to do its protein synthesis thing) or dysbiosis causing resistance (or weird hormone changes with lactation). About a month ago, I got the stomach flu and didn't eat for two days. To try and treat it and recover, I started supping myself with vitamin A for the first time (before, it was self-limiting quantities of liver), 50,000iu/day for a couple weeks and 25,000iu after that. As soon as my appetite was back, I felt AMAZING. This is before the A had a chance to do anything, its like I had a total gut reset. Anyway, now, a month later, I'm noticing a significant decrease in mucin. I can pinch my arms better, my face looks thinner (in a good way), and my thighs/butt are slimming down for pretty much the first time since dd was born, save when I was pg with ds. As always, there are too many variables to say for sure, but it sure sounds to me like vit A should get the credit.

Also interesting to note is dd is slimming down a ton as well (she is/was one of those super chub babies, 27lbs at 6mo, 44lbs at not quite 4yo). Now, she lost a bunch of weight when she had the same bug (hers lasted a lot longer







) but her whole body type is changing since then AND the super lax ligaments in her ankles appear to have tightened up significantly, in the span of just a week or two. I'm definitely crediting the A (just through me) for that one.


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## wallabi (Oct 9, 2007)

omg - that brain fog thing? did I really just hit clear instead of submit?









and I was so articulate, too. long story short, then:

Typical hypo symptoms with the exception of weight gain (though before going gf I was gaining weight, and I have been starving at intervals since then, so who knows?), family history of thyroid problems - ggma with a goiter, gma with thyroid troubles, mom with normal TSH but needs armour to function. I also have endometriosis and suspect celiac (some sort of gluten intolerance to be sure, but the prevalance of autoimmune problems in my family and the number of gf family members I have make me think celiac). About two months ago my health tanked, utterly exhausted, cycles went all wacky, so I went in and got my thyroid and a few other things checked.

Lab results (should I say useless lab results? not sure what to make of it all yet):

TSH 1.63 (Dr K book gives 1.8 - 3 range)

Free T3 2.97 (Dr K 3-4.5)

Free T4 1.3 (Dr K 1 - 1.5)

If I follow the Dr K book right, these fit the pattern for either Low Pituitary Function or Underconvsion. This is maybe due to adrenal problems, or long-term inflammation from the endo and gluten? Maybe?

The other thing - I came back with low cholesterol. LDL 64 and Total Cholesterol 128. Now, poking about through the archives here I came across a thread about cholesterol and adrenal fatigue and I think some names I recognized from this thread posted there, and it sounded like y`all were thinking that raising cholesterol would help with the adrenal problems, and in turn with thyroid and hormonal imbalances. My question is ... did it?

I am utterly overwhelmed by the volume of supplements in the Dr K book and have no idea where to begin, and don`t know whether I am on the right track with this adrenal/thyroid thing at all ... any suggestions, any help, any thoughts of any kind would be enormously appreciated!!


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## mama9 (Jul 25, 2010)

Just got through this entire thread.

My symptoms/issues: Almost 20 years ago I came down with exercise intolerance. I was training in fitness and was a competitive martial artist before the issues began. I would get a sore/bleeding throat and become bed ridden/on abx. Over time I could exercise less and less before coming down with infection. Eventually I went through a stage of needing help to walk to the local store. So ill, thought I was dying. Saw an herbal doctor and she got me back on my feet. Her diagnosis was candida from head to toe. I have had diagnosis since then of CFS (mainstream doctor) and FM by a rheumatologist. I have had alopecia on and off.

Over the years I can't do anything without pain or some kind of muscular fatigue/pain. At time, things like grating a carrot or washing my hair mean that I can't use my hands at all by the end of the day.

Now that I am thinking about it, I had issues before puberty. I was long distant running for my school and I would get sore throats afterwards......mmmmm! Always had the loudest cracking in my ankles too!

I have crazy mucin on my upper arms and outer thighs and I have thinning outer eyebrows. I'm pretty skinny but with a large belly. I don't sleep well, I'm always too cold.

When I got pg with DS I went from 56 kg to 81 kg in the last trimester. My pelvic bones came apart to the point that I needed a wheelchair to go shopping and props to walk around the house during the last 6 weeks before the birth. DS was 14 days 'over due'. I found MDC due to DS having food sensitivity issues. He's currently 9 mo and always has cold hands and feet. I'm obviously concerned for him.

My hypoT symptoms are out of control since the birth. Without going into it all in this post, I very much think I am your adrenal fatigue poster girl.

A few months back I had yet another normal TSH result, I think 2.12.

I just ordered the Dr K and Starr books...the STTM book arrived yesterday...

Another clue to my issue was a visit to a kinesiologist for my DS. He tested me whilst I was there and told me that I have pituitary issues which are affecting my thyroid (hypoT). This was random and unexpected and the very first person to agree with my suspicion.

BTW, I've been gluten and dairy free for around 5 months now. It cured my anemia which has been with me my whole life and no amount of supping iron could cure it. I don't know what my levels are now but my last test was taken not long after going GF. DS is also GFDF. As a kid I had all of the celiac symptoms too. I would be crippled with stomach pain after eating bread but food intolerance was never suspected or mentioned (a whole 'nother story!).

I am subbing with the hopes that I can get some great advice on how to get better and how to help my DS should he have similar issues too.

Thanks so much and thank you JaneS for your great thread!

xxx


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