# Help me come up with some solutions *update 33*



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm often not sure what to do and need some help.

Example that happens often is that dd will be told that after her dinner she can have x item (bread which she loves, cookies, crackers, etc). Then as soon as I'm not looking she will said item. _ETA: because I'm feeling a little judged I'll explain this particular situation. If we let dd choose all her own foods she'd eat nothing but bread products and leave no room in her stomach to have vegetables or proteins. So we ask her to eat some of her meal before she's allowed to eat the breads._

I know the simple solution is to put it out of her reach but what do I do in reaction to her knowingly breaking the rules? She's 3.5, btw.

I want to use natural consequences but am not always sure what the natural consequences should be. What do you do in that situation?


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

hmmmm...i saw a clifford episode that reminds me of your post...or vice versa. two cats are looking over their channukah gifts (yes, cats...) and are told they could choose 1 each night to open. Well one of the cats can't wait nad sneaks out of bed to open them all, enjoys them that night, then clumsily rewraps them.
well, it's pretty obvious he's done this, so he's told that now that he knows what they are, he won't have anything fun to do while his sister will enjoy hers one surprise at a time. Well, he ends up crying while she opens her next gift. He's so disappointed.

Okay, where am I going with this...

I guess what I mean to say is, maybe she'll just have to watch everyone else enjoy the cookie, cracker, bread after dinner while she watches, since she has already had hers...it could work! I would play it up...maybe say, "Oh, man. You didn't wait. Now we all get to eat our _____________ together, but yours is already in your tummy." Then really enjoy yours! It's a logical consequence.

Not logical would be to take it away and deny it to her again. Not logical would be a timeout. Not logical would be to do anything that isn't a direct and natural result of her doing what she did.

HTH!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

IME, making rules like that are only good for teaching a child how to follow directions so that they will be good workers and never question their orders/rules of the workplace.
School is the same way. It was created to make workers, not teach children how to use their intelligence.

Sorry, I don't have any solutions I am comfortable with, to give.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

MITB, I really hope that you do not mean to be as condescending as your post portrays.

I'm not asking you to judge the decisions I've made for my children only to help me come up with a solution to a problem. If you can't do that then I kindly ask that you just not answer.

I am now feeling like I need to justify myself when I shouldn't have to do so. Instead of being judging why don't you instead try to be helpful.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

That's a tough one, since as you noted the best solution is not to 'facilitate' her sneaking a treat if you don't want her to have one at that time and know she'll be tempted. I agree that not having one later with the rest of the family is one idea.

What about also taking away some of the forbidden fruit effect around dessert (I know, same thing in our house!) - have dessert sometimes but not all the time, have it be a cookie sometimes and yogurt or fruit another time, and sometimes have a fun 'backwards' meal with dessert first for everyone? In fact, knowing that on (e.g.) Friday you always have a 'backwards' dinner may make it less tempting to try to sneak a treat other days.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I wasn't being judgemental, just stating my experience with the type of 'rules' you are creating in your home.

Quote:

help me come up with a solution to a problem.
You created the problem in the first place, so, if you want it to stop, then stop putting yourself in a position that makes you feel the need to discipline.

Or, if you want that to be a set rule, then stand by it. Put her in time-out, or take her toys away or force to sit at the table until all her veggies are gone.

Or make her feel bad for eating her cookie by watching everyone else eat their cookies.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2*
What about also taking away some of the forbidden fruit effect around dessert

ITA. People think I am weird because we eat typical desserts in the morning, never after 4pm.

I think too many parents set themselves up for trouble by giving a child that much sugar before bedtime. Why not in the am when everyone will have the energy to deal with a meltdown, or, better yet, avoid the meltdown by giving dessert before playing at the park for a couple of hours.

They burn off the excess sugar.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

we are getting off topic here.

First of all I'm generally referring to bread with dinner. She likes bread and will eat that and have no room for veggies.

So MITB are you saying I should serve bread with dinner then I don't have to tell her to wait for it?

Perhaps I should also remove anything from the house that requires being plugged in so then I don't have to tell her not to play with cords or outlets.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Some options:

- not putting out bread

- putting the amount of bread you're fine with her eating on her plate in the kitchen, and bringing it in that way

- make sure the bread you do serve is whole grain

So far as the 'sneaking' goes, well, she's little, she's determined, and she's got a strong motivator if there's a big basket of bread in between her and the brussels sprouts!







I doubt that her sneaking some food is a dire harbinger of delinquency to come, and making too big of a deal of it is going to turn meals into power struggles, which is actually worse in a longterm way.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I cannot speak for what sort of punishment you should use. But maybe you could put together a box or tray of ready-to-eat foods that you approve of where she has free access. Like orange smiles, ants on a log, small tupperwares of applesauce, etc..... Then she is able to snack as she is hungry but not break any rules. Our co-op carries these little fruit and veggie leathers that are small but are supposedly 1.5 servings of fruit/veggies. Dd loves those because they are slightly sweet. Dried mango, apricot, and papaya are big hits too. That might satisfy the problem for both you and dd.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Re your comment about cords and outlets - well, no, of course not! My dd has never been interested in them, so it's not an issue for us, but if it were, we'd do outlet covers.

I know MamaintheBoonies' posting tone kind of ticked you off, but she's def on to something so far as distinguishing between big issues and small ones, picking your battles and all that. Strongly discouraging a kid from electrocuting him or herself is different than placing them in temptation's way around their favourite food and then worrying that they succumbed, if you see what I mean. Respond accordingly...life's too short.









Oh, the snack tray or cupboard is a great idea. I know I go for the carbs and the sweets when I'm really hungry, so try heading her off at the pass before she develops the craving.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

I understand your concern about not wanting your dd to fill up on bread/crackers/etc. before her meal, but I think it's more a case of "this stuff tastes so good that I can't ignore the temptation" rather than "knowingly breaking the rules". If I were hanging out in the kitchen with someone while they were preparing a meal and some bread was on the table, I'd nibble on it too!

What if you gave dd a small amount that wouldn't spoil her appetite, and told her she could have some more after the meal? Or, give her a couple crackers and a spoonful of nut butter (or some other protein source) to spread on them. That would keep her hands busy while she waits, and you'd know she's getting something besides starch.

To the person who suggested making dd watch everyone else eat... I know you were trying to help, but I think that's mean. If there was only enough bread or whatever for each person to have one piece, then I'd just say to dd, "I'm sorry, but you already ate yours and there isn't any more. Have you had enough to eat?" and then offer her something else if she was still hungry. I might even break off of piece of mine and share it. I certainly would not gloat over it while she sat there w/ nothing.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Mama'otwo, what I pick up on is just that you want your DD to be well-nourished - NOT that you are making her jump thru hoops to please you. I hear you!

My only suggestion is - put the food she desires more out of reach, keep it there, give free access to the foods she favors less but needs. The natural consequences seem to me: she can't eat the "treat" when other family members do, because she's already eaten it. I suggest keeping your focus on getting her well-fed, and making it physically impossible







for her to circumvent that ..."sneaking" food is such a universal, and it's meeting a physical need, and it's a terrible, terrible issue to have battles about. So I would focus on keeping the "forbidden fruit" food out of reach. And you know, her tastes WILL change, one of these days. (And as for snotty posters, of which there's no shortage: ignore 'em! You'll notice they often haven't even READ what you're asking about, anyway!)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nomadmom*
I understand your concern about not wanting your dd to fill up on bread/crackers/etc. before her meal, but I think it's more a case of "this stuff tastes so good that I can't ignore the temptation" rather than "knowingly breaking the rules". If I were hanging out in the kitchen with someone while they were preparing a meal and some bread was on the table, I'd nibble on it too!

I agree. I think it's unfair to expect your DD to have that much self-control. Just put the item away where she can't get it until she's eaten the other food first. Simple, easy, no punishment involved.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
(And as for snotty posters, of which there's no shortage: ignore 'em! You'll notice they often haven't even READ what you're asking about, anyway!)

I don't know if you're referring to me, but I *did* realize after I posted that I misunderstood and thought the op meant her dd was eating the bread as she was trying to get the rest of the meal on the table. I didn't edit because I felt that most of what I said was still relevant. As far as being snotty, I hope that wasn't aimed at me because even though I told someone I thought their suggestion was mean (and I stand by that remark), my goal was to help them see another pov, not to offend. Snotty is not my style.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

This is a little off-topic, but if your DD is craving bread, she might have a wheat allergy. I have one, and as a child, would gladly eat nothing but bread. Its funny how you can crave something you are allergic to.

If you think its possible she might have a wheat allergy, and the evidence would be that she really really wants that bread, to the point where she might throw a tantrum or steal or whatever to get the wheat, you might try eliminating all wheat for a few weeks - offer spelt bread or wheat-free bread and crackers and see if that has any effect on the intensity of her desire for it, and if then she might be willing to choose, on her own, more balanced food items once off wheat.

If you think I'm way off track, I won't be offended







I agree with the other posters who suggest not having the bread out until she's eaten a healthy dinner. Use the bread like you would dessert, I think.

As far as natural consequences for "stealing" the bread or crackers, I would really delay implementing any consequences until you've eliminated wheat as an allergen. But if you don't want to do this, the only consequence I can think of would be that she has lost her bread priviledges for the next meal. Actually I think it would be better to avoid opportunity for her to "steal" the bread rather than try to think of consequences, in this particular case, since the behavior is not exactly dangerous.


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

You simply must get the children's book Bread and Jam for Frances! I loved it as a child and we have it now. Frances only wants to eat bread and jam, it's her favorite thing. . . . she mutters to other food, and makes up love ditties for bread and jam. So her mom only gives her bread and jam. And she tires of that quickly and has a meltdown and they talk it out. It will be great for your dc. My daughter would be a carb addict if I let her, too. Their bodies learn, very early, that carbs are a double drug- they have a high glycemic index (break down into sugar faster) and some of them elevate serotonin levels. They are like a good drug! So, we are effectively demanding that our toddlers have the self control that adults rarely have y expecting them to deny themselves carbs. We only do whole grains, and all crackers and bread has stealth health protein, like nuts. Quick (non-yeast) breads with nuts, cheese and ultrafine diced veggies are easy to make (but I'm pregnant right now, and so sitting more than baking, ha). I think eliminating wheat for a week every now and then is probably a good idea, even if you don't suspect allergy. When I get a wider variety of grains I feel better. Quinoa, anyone?


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Something we started doing awhile back, but have gotten a bit side-tracked on, is talking about foods and the rainbow. The importance of eating as many colors of the rainbow as possible. Trying to figure out what colors we still needed to get in during the day (or on a grocery trip) was fun. My oldest would prefer to eat beige all day long, so we tried the rainbow thing, and it seemed to be a fun way to increase the diversity of colors in our diet. Ds would say, wait, I haven't had any orange yet


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Hey, Nomadmom, no, i wasn't trying to snipe you at all! Actually I was thinking of one particular poster whose main contribution to most threads is to tell us that her family *never* has such and such a problem. (Me, I think, if you do everything perfectly and have never had a problem -- then you've never _solved_ a problem -- so you can't actually help anyone who has a problem to figure out.) Sorry 'bout that.

And to not be totally OT the 'rainbow of foods' idea is excellent!


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Crescentaluna, gotcha.







I agree, the rainbow idea sounds fun.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Wow, this thread is a perfect example of snarky and nasty.









I completely understand what you are saying. If my girls are hungry before dinner they are allowed only "refrigerator" snacks. Example, carrot sticks, apple, yogurt, grapes, etc. Otherwise, they wait until dinner is ready. If bread is a huge issue, I might give her half a piece with her meal and tell her she may have more when she finishes her food. I have one that would eat nothing but bread and butter for dinner if I let her, too.

Good Luck.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
Wow, this thread is a perfect example of snarky and nasty.











OT

The entire thread or just a post or two?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I, too, loved Bread and Jam for Frances as a child! That's a good idea.

Also, what about offering her the bread in a way that incorporated protein or veggies, if you can? Like the nut butter on cracker idea? Or with cheese? Or an open-faced sandwich with sauteed veggies on it?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I also feed my kids the starches last (when they are separate from the meal) and avoid such things as dinner rolls etc for a similar reason.
I prefer my children eat fruit/veggies and protein, and starches are just cheap extra calories. I dont mind them having some but I do try to delay them.
At 3 1/2 I would put my priority on keeping temptation out of reach rather than any consequence for sneaking. My 3 1/2 year old sometimes sneaks, and when I see him it is just a reminder to myself to put things away properly.
Joline


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm not trying to be snarky at all but it sounds more like you want a punishment for her not listening to what you tell her to do rather than a solution to prevent the problem. I can help you come up with solutions better if I know where you are coming from so which of these is it?


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
OT

The entire thread or just a post or two?

Just a few, but totally unnecessary and not what the OP is looking for. She clearly said she wants suggestions, which many gave. However, to suggest she let her eat the cookies or bread or to suggest she is looking to "punish" the child, when she is clearly concerned about her child being well nourished just seems mean. This is why so many people say they feel unwelcome or hesitate to post here.

An occassional dessert before dinner is fine, but I don't blame her for not wanting dc to fill up on the "junk". Mine would happily eat cookies, crackers and bread instead of vegetables, but they need the healthy things too. Once in a great while I take them to McDonalds. Usually, its when the weather has been bad for a long time and they like to play on the indoor play equipment. Then, I let them eat the ice cream first. It's probably healthier than the dinner anyway.









I actually did like your suggestion and some of the others. We do something similar in my house!


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I cannot speak for what sort of punishment you should use. But maybe you could put together a box or tray of ready-to-eat foods that you approve of where she has free access. Like orange smiles, ants on a log, small tupperwares of applesauce, etc..... Then she is able to snack as she is hungry but not break any rules. Our co-op carries these little fruit and veggie leathers that are small but are supposedly 1.5 servings of fruit/veggies. Dd loves those because they are slightly sweet. Dried mango, apricot, and papaya are big hits too. That might satisfy the problem for both you and dd.


Sorry this is OT, but yooper, where can I get these fruit and veggie leathers? My dd has definite sensitivity to artificial color, so I had to take all colors out of her diet. During dinner tonight, she was complaining about how much she misses fruit roll ups and wishes she could have them.







What you describe sounds like a good alternative that would make her happy, without making her sick.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Writermommy - I am not sure....I will have to get back to you. They come in a clear, unmarked (except for flavor and expiration date) wrapper but I buy them out of a basket that does have the brand on it. So next time I am there, I will take note. There is also Tropical Island leathers that I believe are no sugar, preservatives, or dyes, and theyhave some that are organic. We get those sometimes too...especially when travelling since I can usually find them in normal grocery stores. But those are all fruit and I like the other ones because they have some that are all veggie and are less sweet. I also understand that it is pretty easy to make them at home out of applesauce and other veggies using your oven at low temps. I need to try that myself


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm not trying to punish her. I want to kow what I should do in response to situations in which I don't see a logical consequence.

The example I gave was just that, an example.

Some things have very natural and logical consequences but not all things. I want to teach my daughter to do the right things but I don't want to punish her and make her frightened (which is what punishment seems to do to young children).

I'm looking for direction for what to do in general when my response doesn't come to me easily.

And thank you for the rainbow idea. dd and I talk a lot about what certain foods do for your body. Before we eat dinner we talk about what we are eating and I ask her which foods she should eat and why.
As to serving things on bread she will eat the outside of the bread! Like a sandwich she will take it apart and eat the bread and the cheese and then the other stuff if she's hungry. Even things like peanut butter, she will eat just the outside of the bread and leave the filling. Its very frustrating!
Then later on she poops and says it hurts so I explain its because she's not eating enough of the right foods.
She's just a very determined child when it comes to food. I've done days where when she's hungry I offer nothing but fruits and veggies (trying to balance out the week) and she will just cry all day for bread or crackers and only eat a tiny bit of fruits/veggies. I figure if she's hungry enough then she'd eat the apple or whatever I'm offering but she won't.

Ideally I want her to learn to make healthy choices on her own.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. What do you do when your response to a situation isn't apparent?


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm not sure if this helps, but often when the logical responce to a situation isn't obvious, I'll tell ds that I don't like what just happened but I don't know what to do about it yet. Then I'll think about it for a while. This helps me avoid feeling like I have to "solve it right now" which stresses me and leads to an anger/fear responce. Sometimes, more now than when he was 3, I'll ask him what he thinks he could do to make the situation better. That's in the end what I want to teach my children, to be responcible for their own actions. So to use the food thing if you see dd eating the bread, say "We've talked about how are bodies need a variety foods. I see you've already put bread into your tummy. What should you eat next?" or something like that.

But I do agree that it's better to avoid these kinds of battles in the first place. Weather it's food or anything else if you can reasonably change the environment to avoid conflict then do it. I put all our food on our plates before they go to the table. It avoids conflict with dd and helps keep me from going back for leftovers to. We don't eliminate electric items in the hose but we do use outlet covers and arange furniture so cords are less accesable. and so on.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
I've done days where when she's hungry I offer nothing but fruits and veggies (trying to balance out the week) and she will just cry all day for bread or crackers and only eat a tiny bit of fruits/veggies. I figure if she's hungry enough then she'd eat the apple or whatever I'm offering but she won't.

Ideally I want her to learn to make healthy choices on her own.?

Just my thoughts......if a child is to learn how to listen to their bodies needs, they need to be believed about what they need. ie-if her body is telling her she needs bread/crackers/etc. then listen and let her eat what she needs. There are other foods that offer carbs and grains, besides bread.
Or, if all else fails, only provide zuchinni bread, or banana bread, kwim? So, then she's getting her bread and a serving of fruits/veggies, kwim? You certainly don't have to put as much sugar in as most recipes dictate. Use maple syrup at 1/4 the amount of sugar, or use sweeter tasting fruits.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. What do you do when *your response to a situation isn't apparent*?

I am confused by this question.....I keep seeing a mom screaming and it's obvious to everyone the stove's on fire.
















Maybe clarify, please?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

: The above scenario is totally why I failed Descriptive Writing in college.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

What I mean is what do you do when you don't know what to do?
I've heard that young kids need consequences/whatever you want to call it right away, so can I wait to think of something?

I tried some of your suggestions today. dd helped me prepare dinner, I even let her choose (with some direction from me) what we would eat.
We talked about foods that are different colors. I asked things like "What foods are green?" "Have you had any green food today?" Then we talked about what colors she'd had and which ones we should have in dinner so that she could have all the colors.
I gave her a tiny piece of bread (whole wheat and bra made with honey, btw). She ate all of it then said she was ready to get down. We talked again about healthy foods and what they do for your body. I even resorted to bringing up that Land Before Time movie she saw at my mom's house and about how they dinosaurs were looking for green food. She had a small bite of salad.

Then I asked her to try the chicken because I made a new recipe tonight. She tasted it said it was good but didn't want to eat it.

On and on. Nothing works with her. Eventually after dh and I both finished eating, he fed her every bite and it took an additional 30 minutes for her to eat.

I don't want to battle with her about food. She's always been stubborn about eating (she didn't eat any solids till almost 2 yrs old).

i don't know what to do.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I would try really hard to let up.
Offer her nutritious foods frequently throughout the day but dont expect her ot eat much at all at any sitting.
My 3 1/2 year old barely eats 3 bites at dinner every night. Drives DH nuts and we usually ask him to try everything, but if we give it a couple of minutes and it is apparent that he really isnt interested in eating, we let him be excused.
Tonight he basically ate shredded cheese for dinner, that's all. We had borrito fixings. FOr ds I always put them on his plate separately because he rejects almost all multiple ingredient foods. He ate some cheese, had seconds then asked to be excused. BUT, 2 hours before he had eaten an orange 2 stalks of celery and several slices of cucumber. He almost always eats the most at breakfast too, so I make sure his choices are very healthy then.
I also keep a large variety of fruit on hand. Canteloupe and Kiwi for example are just filled with nutrients.
Remember also that at 3 they are probably in the middle of the pickiest eating phase they will ever have and what they choose to eat now is NOT a reflection of lifelong eating habits.
Make the food she will eat as nutritious as possible.
For example, my kids love oatmeal. I use old fashooned oats and cook them with fruit. Usually a banana diced up. They eat up the oatmeal and get the fruit on accident. They also love when I stir in a couple of tablespoons of yogurt into the oatmeal to make it creamy. They THINK they are just eating grains but they are also getting some fruit, protein and calcium too. If you really want to boost nutrition add some ground flax seeds.
For lunch, instead of sandwiches I give just the meat, cheese and then some raw fruits and veggies.
If she loves pasta, make barilla plus. It is not just whole wheat, it also has protein right in the pasta. And it tastes GREAT.
If you keep offering fruits and veggies over and over, she will eventually eat them. Even if she seems to survive on the grains for now, she will be more likely to like the other food later if it is handled in a low key way.
THere was a time when my DS would touch NOTHING green at all! Now he absolutely begs for celery, cucumber, bell pepper, and he even asks for salad. He still has no patience for peas or green beans, but I am feeling better and better about his food choices.
Another thign to try is smoothies. I have yet to meet a kid who will reject those!
Three year olds are notorious for being picky eaters. I think almost all of them are. Dont despair that this is a permanent thing.
Good LUck
JOline


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I would try really hard to let up.

Yeah, if it were my kid, I'd certainly stop hand-feeding her, and if she says she's full, let her be full, and REALLY let her self-regulate. She will. Especially if you make it available. Remember, her stomach is only the size of her fist. That's not much. If she fills it up with bread, just make sure it's whole wheat, and then I'd let it go. That's my .02.

Also, you say

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
I've heard that young kids need consequences/whatever you want to call it right away, so can I wait to think of something?

What kind of consequence are you looking for here? Are you trying to think of a consequence to enforce based upon her sneaking the bread? Or her not eating the veggies? Again, if it were my kid, I'd steer clear of that.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
What I mean is what do you do when you don't know what to do?

Learn. I have taken several parenting classes, attended seminars, read just about every book, took a child psychology class and a human development class. Not saying that's what you need to do, but it is what has helped me the most in my parenting decisions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
I've heard that young kids need consequences/whatever you want to call it right away, so can I wait to think of something?

IME, if you have to think about it, then it was probably something that did not require a punishment or consequence.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
IME, if you have to think about it, then it was probably something that did not require a punishment or consequence.









:


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

You have gotten some great ideas and I second the notion of letting up.

Also, don't despare as in "nothing works"! Nothing EVER works right away, it will take time, so small steps mama.

I take myself as an example - nobody ever watched over what I ate as I was growing up, I would just grab and go. And although during some periods of my life my diet was filled with carbs (puberty comes to mind, cuz I don't remember what I liked being 3) - I somehow grew to prefer healthy stuff, honest! I don't even like bread now









If you are too worried about her nutrition, may be try children suplements?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
What I mean is what do you do when you don't know what to do?


The first thing I do is really look at what I'm asking. I evaluate it from my side and make sure that it's appropriate, rational, practical, not full of my own baggage, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Then try to find any other solutions that satisfy everyone.

The case of the bread and the other foods is difficult for me. Personally, I think we're up against quite a bit of opposition as parents when it comes to healthy foods. In our family it's not even all the junk but abundance that causes some problems. The fact is that, if all we had was lentil soup, DC would be eating lentil soup. It's hard, mama.

Honestly, I think I would just give it a break for a little while if you've been struggling. Sometimes, I feel DC needs a little time to process info. Also, I've noticed that she'll try more foods if we're not looking expectantly. She really does not respond well to expectations or praise, especially when it comes to food.

Peer pressure seems to work though.







DC seems to be drawn towards eating what other kids are eating and she'll also try things that other friends suggest.

The other thing that works, like I said earlier, is limited choices. We've been eating out in a new area and this has really encouraged her to broaden her diet.

Good luck, mama. I know how difficult it is to deal with a child who doesn't eat well.

If it's any consolation, my brother was really picky eater (the only thing he liked for a while was my grandma's rehydrated tomato sauce over spaghetti and he picked the onions out!) and he eats really well now.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nomadmom*
To the person who suggested making dd watch everyone else eat... I know you were trying to help, but I think that's mean. If there was only enough bread or whatever for each person to have one piece, then I'd just say to dd, "I'm sorry, but you already ate yours and there isn't any more. Have you had enough to eat?" and then offer her something else if she was still hungry. I might even break off of piece of mine and share it. I certainly would not gloat over it while she sat there w/ nothing.

hmmmm...
Sometimes the natural consequence (which is what the op requested) is not a fun one. Life is like that. We can't always sugar coat things for our kids. Yeah the playing it up part is over the top...i agree. wouldn't do that...but not getting the bread or dessert or whatever cause her share was already had is a natural consequence...plain and simple.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
hmmmm...
Sometimes the natural consequence (which is what the op requested) is not a fun one. Life is like that. We can't always sugar coat things for our kids. Yeah the playing it up part is over the top...i agree. wouldn't do that...but not getting the bread or dessert or whatever cause her share was already had is a natural consequence...plain and simple.









But why even start those types of issues around food? Isn't that why there are so many ppl in America with eating disorders?

I could understand if it's a non-food item, like straws for cups, she got hers and bent it all up, but there are only enough straws for each person, so, she'll have to make-do with her bent-up straw. Or she lost it.

Or opening all her gifts, and then have to watch or not watch, but know that everyone else is opening theirs. It's not okay to run out and get her all new gifts, kwim? It also doesn't mean that ppl have to gloat or brag about it.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
But why even start those types of issues around food? Isn't that why there are so many ppl in America with eating disorders?


I don't know why so many people have eating disorders, but I don't believe it is because thay ate their dessert before it was time. That's a pretty sweeping generalization there. Is this an 'issue around food' or an issue around being a small child who really likes bread??? I don't get the connection.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
I don't know why so many people have eating disorders, but I don't believe it is because thay ate their dessert before it was time. That's a pretty sweeping generalization there. Is this an 'issue around food' or an issue around being a small child who really likes bread??? I don't get the connection.

You missed the point. It was not the one-time issue, but the whole idea of needing to teach your child not to sneak food, or not listen to what her body needs.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

I do understand what you said regarding letting this go so as not to make it a battle when it's not really neecessary to do so. But the op sees it as an issue for her and I respect that and was offering a suggestion as requested. She asked I offered, I did not ask for any critiques. I did not start this thread...

OT: Hey, I appreciate the opinions of others and don't feel that it's my place nor perrogative (sp?) to judge, and I did not come here to debate the conception of eating disorders....I quoted a Clifford episode for crying out loud!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
She asked I offered, I did not ask for any critiques. I did not start this thread...

I offered my opinion of why it might not be a good idea. Others, besides the OP reads these threads.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
I quoted a Clifford episode for crying out loud!









: Isn't Clifford a dog?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
Yeah the playing it up part is over the top...i agree. wouldn't do that...but not getting the bread or dessert or whatever cause her share was already had is a natural consequence...


I'm not sure if anyone was trying to make you defend yourself. They were just trying to clarify because comedy doesn't always come off well online. Saying you were going to ham it up to make a toddler feel bad is something I took as an exaggeration but I can see how it might have come off as a serious suggestion. No harm in asking, right?

If I were going to try a slice of bread for everyone intended for after the meal and were going to include a young child with limited self control, I would feel the need to really, really illustrate how it would go down if child decided to eat the bread first. Then I would watch the child to be sure that she/he didn't feel betrayed or hurt by the situation.

I know that this would be a little too difficult for my child at four years. We would just serve the bread after.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Middle paragraph ~ longest sentence in the world or what?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Back to the OP, Mamao'two

Regarding rule breaking, I've always set as few rules as I could and when I did make rules, I considered it my responsibility to help DC follow them. Something different from rules is agreements. Personally, I think 3.5 is too young to expect a child to follow through with agreements like what I think you're describing with the dinner table. Can you describe the rule issue a little more?


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Away from the controversey - my Dd is a bread and noodle queen. So are my sisters and 82 year old mother. She is a healthy 4-1/2 year old. There are days when mostly what she wants is these foods. She is small, 30 lb now, and there was a time when a pediatrician was torturing us about her weight, so her eating had become a point of stress for me. I decided to drop the issue (and the pediatrician), and let Dd make most of her own choices. I felt the emotional stuff surrounding the food needed to be dropped, and I needed to let up on some of my desires about what Dd ate. Which pretty much meant, more carbohydrates than I'd have initially chosen!

I am pretty strict organic and picky picky picky about what I offer or have in the house.

I offer only whole grains. She used to be sensitive to not getting protein in the morning - a bit grumpy. That's better now, but still, I tell her the bread wants protein food to keep it company in her stomach. Sometimes the bread talks: oh, we really want eggs to eat when we get into your stomach! Or the noodles want cheese, or some such. I have told her that protein foods will make her hair grow (it's thinner and still baby hair, and she wants it long), ...she is pretty good at accepting some protein with her carbohydrate and if she does this at breakfast or lunch, I don't push the issue later in the day.

If she goes long enough on her bread binge, she'll go on a fat and protein binge a week later. She also likes fruit and I offer this in the late afternoon only, because I think it's too sugary to have throughout the day unless it's hot summer and I think she needs the fluid. I don't offer later, because she wets the bed (water or breastmilk does not cause that...?)

She had been opening the refrigerator and browsing, which I wanted to discourage (turning into my mother there, what are you doing, cooling the house?). So I would tell her to feel her mouth and feel her stomach and decide what she wants ahead of time, and she would tell me what she wanted and I'd say OK. Go ahead. Now I no longer ask her to tell me what she has chosen, just to state that she knows what she is getting once she goes in. She makes good choices, usually from the cheese (and protein food) drawer that is right at her shoulder level.

I let her eat whatever she wants (her desires are reasonable and may include the crackers we bake) before dinner if she is hungry - a very hungry Dd at dinner is not fun. Our dinners are much more enjoyable if she's had a substantial appetier. Sometimes it's a serving of dinner before it gets to the table, or she'll go to the refrigerator and make herself something. Today, after her scant oatmeal breakfast (I stir in raw almond butter - sneaking the protein again), she went to the refrigerator and concocted herself a creation out of rice cheese, raw organic cheddar shreads, almond butter, and freshly made granola. At this point, if breakfast is small or low on protein, she usually makes it up before grumpiness can set in.

More on my family: My mother and sisters are also bread and noodle queens, though I am not. My 82 year old mother can down a loaf of bread in one day if it's her favorite pumpernickel onion! She runs her bread machine 2-3 times per week. Breads, noodles, not to mention chocolate, seem to be a genetic thing in my family.

I took Dd to a homeopath last week for an immune enhancement before the rest of winter. The homeopath chose her remedy partly based on the bread and noodle fondness. (And the chocolate)

Sears wrote somewhere that day to day balance doesn't matter so much, it's the bigger picture that matters.

Good luck with your Dd, and this thread.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Another suggestion, my kids are also big carb eaters. Personally, I wouldnt make them readily available before dinner, my kids KNOW that when Im cooking dinner, if they are hungry they can have a vegetable or fruit while they wait (or yogurt, for that matter)... I always say "no snacky things" (crackers and crap). As a matter of fact, if I KNOW the kids are particularly hungry, or if dinner is running a little late, I will put out raw veggies on a plate with dressing. My dd will eat all the broccoli (she loves broccoli), and ds is not a big veggie eater, so he will wait for dinner, and eat well bc he is so hungry. I just suggest setting up you environment for success, she may not be happy, but you aren't punishing her by altering what is available, you are just changing your routines a bit, and as she gets used to it, she will eventually accept it.

Also, my dd loves rolls. If we have them with dinner I will offer her one or a half of one, and then after its gone, I ask her to have a bite of dinner first, then she can have more. She is used to this, we have always done this, so she takes a bite and then gets the rest of the roll.. this just gets her rolling on trying out dinner in the first place, and after one bite she will usually eat more. HOWEVER, if I put out the veggie plate first, and she ate all that stuff, I wouldnt really care.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
hmmmm...
Sometimes the natural consequence (which is what the op requested) is not a fun one. Life is like that. We can't always sugar coat things for our kids. Yeah the playing it up part is over the top...i agree. wouldn't do that...but not getting the bread or dessert or whatever cause her share was already had is a natural consequence...plain and simple.









It's only a natural consequence if there really *isn't* any more bread, dessert, whatever. If there's more available, then it is *not* a natural consequence to deny it to the child just because the parent doesn't think she should have any more (nutritional worries aside).

Sorry I didn't get that you were being silly about the playing it up part. I'm glad you wouldn't really do that.









I agree w/ MITB about offering dd the kinds of foods that she likes, but trying to make them as nutritious as possible. I've had vegetable dishes that are so delicious they taste like dessert (2 that come to mind are sweet potato casserole and carrot souffle), and I'm happy to share the recipes if the op -- or anyone -- is interested.

I still think that the situation in the original example (child sneaking bread) had nothing to do w/ discipline and no consequence was needed. Child likes bread, bread is available, child eats bread. I'm going to re read some posts and think about the op's question about what to do when nothing immediately comes to mind, but am leaning towards agreeing w/ MITB (twice in one post, MITB







) that in such a case that would mean that nothing needs to happen.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Not sure if this will be helpful, but it helped me, so here goes







My grandmother is 87 and raised six children (and never drove a car--which blows my mind, but that's totally OT) Anyway, once I asked her about my oldest who only wanted carbs...her response was that it was our job as parents to offer wholesome and nutritious food, and most days it seemed it was our children's job to refuse it







.

She said she would put out a salad with carrots, lettuce, tomatoes,etc but most of the time her children only at the croutons







but she kept offering. And they kept refusing until they were ready to branch out. She also said she didn't have time to fuss over who was eating what, so she didn't. I found her perspective really helpful b/c I know all my aunts and uncles are all of normal weight and don't have eating disorders









Gotta run, the DSL people are coming


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Another vote for making nutritious food available, talking nutrition with her (both of which you're already doing), maxing the nutritional value of the carbs you offer (whole grains, zucchini bread, banana bread, nut bread), and just letting go.

I've totally been there in terms of the 'one more bite' and 'but you haven't had any of X, you need to have X bites of it then you can go - no, I meant bigger bites than that,' etc etc. So I'm not saying this out of any misguided sense of superiority: it just didn't work, meals were no fun, and it was a nasty, nasty trap that turned things into a battle. It's impossible to have a power struggle unless both people are struggling!

Think about it - millions and millions of children go on weird food jags - only bread, or peanut butter and crackers, or no veggies, or the old "ewww, they're touching, I wanted them separate." If it were that big of a problem, do you think the human race would have lasted this long? Heck, peasants in the middle ages ate maggoty bread and were slinging back the beer by the time they were walking (no, I'm not advocating that!) - we're still here! And here you are, making yummy healthy carbs and other healthy choices available for your daughter, and you're worried.







I'd be more worried if it was solid McDonald's or Twinkies or something, but it's not.

A few months ago there was a super-interesting article in the NY Times about kids who are picky eaters. Nutritionists are now thinking about the fact that all the studies about the balance of foods we need were done on grownups. They're speculating that, given what we know about little kid eating inclinations, children's bodies may not need the same mix of foods as grown-up ones! That is, they may not 'need' as many veggies and may actually need more carbs. The trick, I think, is not to turn eating into a battle ground so that later, even if her body starts wanting different things, like veggies, or telling her she's full of bread, she can't recognize the signals.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I keep thinking about this thread. I have a hard time with food issues because I am a foodie







And it has taken everything i have to resist the "one more bite" urges.

Do you make bread? Perhaps you could make a veggie bread with pureed veggies? Does your dd like hummus? She could dip the bread it that. You can hide all sorts of veggies in hummus. How about pasties? You can stuff them with veggies and protien sources and make a good ww crust.

We often do what you mentioned after a meal. Keep the plate handy and feed her bites when she runs by. She is often hungry after dinner and actually comes to us for bites if we still have the plate handy. She will often ignore the entire meal during dinner but then eat the whole thing while playing later.

Aside from that, I do think the best thing is to just let it go. This might even be a power struggle for her. She probably knows that you are concerend about it and is resisting. Just offer offer offer. She will come around someday. I do not think consequences for any food-related issue is a good idea.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

veggies and dip~ I make a tray of veggies and dip every day and leave it for the kids to snack on..I also snack on it. I also make a plate of fruit every day and leave it down.

Then when I serve meals I always know they have had some veggies even if it was a bite of pepper and a cherry tomato. One day they may eat a lot, the next day not so much...I eat what they don't eat so no waste. I just don't sweat it.

So if my toddler only wants bread at the meals I just let her have bread. She's a pasta nut so I can hide veggies in that.

I try not to sweat it.

As to the sneaking, I just state it and leave it at that age "that was sneaky, you don't need to sneak, just ask" or something along those lines. unless of course I don't mind sneaky. I prefer the kids not pick at food on the table until we are sitting to eat but don't really have it as a rule so if they came in and grabbed something I really wouldn't notice it much.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I thank all of you who have give advice in kindness. Its given me a lot to consider.

It is hard to break out of the things we were taught as children by our parents.

The food issue is very difficult for me because as I said dd had oral issues and didn't eat solids until almost 2 years old. So I spent a year worrying about her and going to therapy sessions. (And after that she ate everything, loved veggies!)
My sister is also bullemic and that is a big worry of mine. Plus we have lots of overweight people in our family and I want my kids to overcome that with healthy eating habits.

That said I want to rule out a wheat allergy. So we are going to cut out wheat for a bit and focus on other grains like oatmeal and brown rice. We don't have any rice flour or spelt or anything like that in our house - only whole wheat and unbleached.

Once I am sure its not an allergy then I will introduce it again.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I just wanted to comment on your wheat allergy post. I'm intolerant of wheat and wanted to share that you should probably steer clear of oats, too. Do some online research about what should and shouldn't be eaten if you have a wheat allergy. Also, spelt can cause problems, too.

Oats are usually cross-contaminated with wheat. Oh, how I wish I could eat oatmeal. I've been wheat free for over seven years and I still learn new things about it.

If you do find that she is sensitive to wheat there are a lot of great cookbooks out there for wheat free diets. Not to mention foods you can buy at health food stores or online that are good substitutes.

Best wishes!


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I offered my opinion of why it might not be a good idea. Others, besides the OP reads these threads.








: Isn't Clifford a dog?


Okay.
I did not ask for my idea to be critiqued...but, I guess sometimes that will happen by seemingly well-meaning folks. It's just not my comfort zone to get this way. If my son wants and sneaks a cookie prior to dinner, it's probably not what his body needs (ie, our bodies may crave carbos and sweets seem like a yummy choice, but not the best, kwim??) so i might let him have it but talk about why something else before dinner might be a better alternative and the rest of us would wait to have our treat after dinner.

this issue seems like it could be solved more simply, but i love teachable moments, and nutrition is a good one to take on everytime i can.

the clifford episode totally popped into my head the moment i read this post, i described it cause it was cute and made sense. the poor little kitty felt bad, cried, and then his sister let him help her on each of the next nights to open her gifts...very sweet.

and yes, clifford is a dog, a big red dog, a cartoon dog. sometimes cartoons are based on animals and sometimes those animals are talking ones...it's cute and kids relate better.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

"As to serving things on bread she will eat the outside of the bread! Like a sandwich she will take it apart and eat the bread and the cheese and then the other stuff if she's hungry. Even things like peanut butter, she will eat just the outside of the bread and leave the filling. Its very frustrating!
Then later on she poops and says it hurts so I explain its because she's not eating enough of the right foods.
She's just a very determined child when it comes to food. I've done days where when she's hungry I offer nothing but fruits and veggies (trying to balance out the week) and she will just cry all day for bread or crackers and only eat a tiny bit of fruits/veggies. I figure if she's hungry enough then she'd eat the apple or whatever I'm offering but she won't."

I, too, love bread in all forms. I love to make zucchini bread







. My mom makes bread (and did when I was a child) with all sorts of ingredients. I have begun adding flax seed (ground up) or oatmeal, anything with grain or fiber, sometimes nuts, that I can add to increase the nutritional value. It's also fun to make bread rolls from scratch and my son adds the insides himself so they become like enclosed meals. His faves are cabbage burgers (cooked cabbage and turkey rolled in to homemade french bread, and fajita rolls. It's fun and you could ask her to find foods of certain colors to add to incorporate the cool rainbow idea (this is if you enjoy cooking/baking of course). It's easy to make food fun and to empower the child so they take ownership of their health/diet.

Sorry if some of my earlier posts wasted space in your thread. I hate when that happens...it sucks when things are taken out of context.









ETA: My son has the painful poops sometimes and we talk about what things he could eat to make nice soft poops instead. He usually then eats better so as not to have to endure the pushing again. I try to remind him when I can that too much milk/bananas, bread, etc will make hard poops.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamao'two*
I thank all of you who have give advice in kindness. Its given me a lot to consider.

It is hard to break out of the things we were taught as children by our parents.

The food issue is very difficult for me because as I said dd had oral issues and didn't eat solids until almost 2 years old. So I spent a year worrying about her and going to therapy sessions. (And after that she ate everything, loved veggies!)
My sister is also bullemic and that is a big worry of mine. Plus we have lots of overweight people in our family and I want my kids to overcome that with healthy eating habits.

That said I want to rule out a wheat allergy. So we are going to cut out wheat for a bit and focus on other grains like oatmeal and brown rice. We don't have any rice flour or spelt or anything like that in our house - only whole wheat and unbleached.

Once I am sure its not an allergy then I will introduce it again.

I was thinking off and on today about your post and I wanted to offer you support. I knwo it is so hard to let up and not make an issue out of somethign so important. But when you come to understand that just by making it an issue with your daughter you are making all of the things you fear MORE rather than less likely, it might get easier.
Eating disorders such as Bulimia and overeating are emotional responses. THey are not the result of not having the proper knowledge about nutrition and they are not the result of not having balanced diets in childhood.
And if you make any type of food an issue your child is MORE Likely to crave it then ever.
Keep in mind that when your husband spoonfeeds your child after she refuses to eat her dinner, it is making eating or not eating about control, an emotional response.
WHen she sees that bread and grains are something that she cannot have unless she sneaks them, it is making it about control, NOT about good nutritional choices.
IN order for your childs future eating habits to be ruled by her bodies needs and her knowledge of nutrition it is vital that she not have an emotional relationship with food.
So in your efforts to get her to eat the right things, ask yourself, are you making it MORE or LESS Likely that she will have an emotional relationship with food?
You likely worry that at 3 sneaking bread or a cookie before dinner is the first step towards hoarding food and bingeing as in bulimia and overeating.
And your gut reaction is to "nip it in the bud" (am I right?)
But nipping it in the bud is only going to reinforce the cycle rather than eliminate it.

Let up and force yourself to be as neutral as possible regarding food. Offer healthy choices and let her decide, and dont look. Dont quantify how much of what she eats. Dont judge her for eating more of one thing and none of another. Your neutrality is the KEY to keeping her from having an emotoinal relationship with food later.

Good Luck
Joline


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

ITA with Joline! Good luck, Mamao'two!


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## tekslilbrat (Jan 17, 2006)

Well, I agree with not punishing for taking the bread because she is obviously hungary and likes it, but I think punishing a child could later possibly lead to eating disoreder. May not. I have a child who ate pb&j sandwiches only no matter what and I gave them to him with a multivitamin because I fet that it was better to get him to eat than to fight over a meal. He is now 9 and eats anything i put in front of him. He was 5 at the time. I am not saying that you should do this because I know that every child needs a well rounded meal, but to me it wasn't worth a panic attack or stressing out over every night so it was what I chose. If the sneaking is bothersome to you then I would let dd know that there is bread or whatever on a plate and show her but keep it out of her reach and tell her that sje can have it when she eats x amount on her plate and then give her a small amount and so on. I did this with my son and as I said, he now eats anything I put infront of him. I hope all works out for you!!!


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