# Why can they be sold?



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Aftermarket replacement car seat covers and car seat buntings are dangerous. They aren't approved by any manufacturer.

So why are they legal to sell?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Because making them illegal would require a federal-level child restraint law, that no one would be willing to vote for and pi$$ off the retailers.

There is a 'de facto' law in most states. Most states have a 'proper use' clause, meaning that Bundle Me's are illegal because no manufacturer approves of their use.

Good luck getting the police department to enforce it though


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Ah, so they're already covered at the state level in many states, but it's like fireworks--you can always cross state lines to buy them?


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

whats the danger of them? i am asking for real not being snarky...


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Ah, so they're already covered at the state level in many states, but it's like fireworks--you can always cross state lines to buy them?

Well, they're not illegal to sell, just illegal to use. I can buy a Bundle Me if I want to...I just can't legally use it in a child restraint.

Lovebug: anything like that, a Bundle Me, a puffy snow suit, all cause the harness to be too loose. Even if it LOOKS tight, all that extra material compresses in an accident. Best case scenario, a child is at increased risk of head and neck injury because their head flies further before their body is stopped by the car seat straps. Worst case scenario, they're actually ejected from the seat, right out of the straps AND the puffy snowsuit.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

The bundle me I had was a lighter weight one, the part that sat behind the baby was only two layers thick, one layer was a super thin nylon type material and the other was a very thin flannel. At maybe 2mm thick I can't see the compression causing any more problems than a baby wearing a thin sweater. I'm sure there are thick ones out there that are not safe but not all of them are unsafe to use, parents just need to know about the need to keep any thick, squishy fabric out from anywhere under the harness.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
The bundle me I had was a lighter weight one, the part that sat behind the baby was only two layers thick, one layer was a super thin nylon type material and the other was a very thin flannel. At maybe 2mm thick I can't see the compression causing any more problems than a baby wearing a thin sweater. I'm sure there are thick ones out there that are not safe but not all of them are unsafe to use, parents just need to know about the need to keep any thick, squishy fabric out from anywhere under the harness.

No, even those ones are unacceptable. They also tend to really alter how the harness fits the child.

Every single time I encounter one I get, "Oh, no, this is FINE, see the straps are tight!". And every single time I'm able to show the parent how it's not fine at all.

NO Bundle ME is safe to use in a child restraint, regardless of thickness.


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## BrittneyMarie (Nov 11, 2009)

but its ok for my lo to wear a not-very-puffy fleece snowsuit, correct?

(id never heard of bundle me's being dangerous, but never had the desire to use one either, as shes never in her carseat outside of the car)


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrittneyMarie* 
but its ok for my lo to wear a not-very-puffy fleece snowsuit, correct?

(id never heard of bundle me's being dangerous, but never had the desire to use one either, as shes never in her carseat outside of the car)

Fitted, single-layer polar-fleece (not fluffy fleece) is ok. You want it to be fitted to your child's body, not three sizes too big, if that makes sense. And it needs to be the thing, not-compressible polar fleece, not the fleece that is fluffy like sheep's wool or similar.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Well, they're not illegal to sell, just illegal to use. I can buy a Bundle Me if I want to...I just can't legally use it in a child restraint.

*Lovebug: anything like that, a Bundle Me, a puffy snow suit, all cause the harness to be too loose. Even if it LOOKS tight, all that extra material compresses in an accident. Best case scenario, a child is at increased risk of head and neck injury because their head flies further before their body is stopped by the car seat straps. Worst case scenario, they're actually ejected from the seat, right out of the straps AND the puffy snowsuit*.

WOW i had no clue! i always thought they were super cool for COLD, COLD areas like MN. it made it so baby did not have to wear a super puffy snowsuit...

well that sucks! then whats the best way to keep baby warm and safe???


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovebug* 
well that sucks! then whats the best way to keep baby warm and safe???

The polar-fleece body suits I described above are great. For an infant carrier, you can use the polar fleece and then put a shower-cap style seat cover OVER the infant seat. Those are great. Once you're in the car and the car heats up, take the shower cap off so baby doesn't cook


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
The polar-fleece body suits I described above are great. For an infant carrier, you can use the polar fleece and then put a shower-cap style seat cover OVER the infant seat. Those are great. Once you're in the car and the car heats up, take the shower cap off so baby doesn't cook









god i am glad i found this site BEFORE i had kiddos!







thats a great idea!!! well and i am sure you could make a shower cap style one that has the little door and everything just like the cuddle me (or whatever it was called) one has... very cool!

THANKS


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovebug* 
WOW i had no clue! i always thought they were super cool for COLD, COLD areas like MN. it made it so baby did not have to wear a super puffy snowsuit...

well that sucks! then whats the best way to keep baby warm and safe???

I'm in Canada in a part of the country that is pretty far south but we still get really cold here with the windchill factor.

I had a newborn winter baby last time and we did one layer fleece snowsuit and then blankets to get to the car and then buckled him in the car and put the blankets over top of him. The snowsuit he was in was warm enough to get from house to car but I never ever would have let him be outside in just that when we were playing for instance (for that he went in the carrier and then babywearing jacket over both of us







).

We didn't use an infant seat but I know that it's common for those who do to bring it inside so it's warm and then put baby in with a shower cap type cover overtop of the whole seat (nothing to interfere with under the seat or the harness straps).

HTH


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Also, remember that legal does not mean "great idea!". It's perfectly legal for me to buy a Happy Meal, complete with Diet Coke, for a 4-month-old.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Another thing to remember is that there is no federal standard for testing any of these after market products. So a manufacturer could throw the thing against the wall and claim that it passed crash testing.

Even if they claim a federal crash standard, NHSTA doesnt do crash testing of after market products, because there is no standard, so their results could mean anything under the sun.

Adjust the harness to fit the child in regular, non bulky clothes, and then only put them in the seat with coats/jackets/fleece that doesnt require you to readjust the straps. I live waaay north, and its incredibly cold here. DD wears a coat I got her at Kmart with fleece on the inside and some cotton knit on the outside, and I dont have to adjust the harness to accommodate it. Its perfect.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Well, they're not illegal to sell, just illegal to use. I can buy a Bundle Me if I want to...I just can't legally use it in a child restraint.

.

Yep...I can go down and buy a bong at the store. it's not illegal to buy or possess a bong. It's not even illegal to use it with say..tobacco, (if you're over 18.) Just like a bundle me or big puffy snowsuit can be used safely in say..a stroller.
But in carseats, you don't want anything causing any slack in the harness. It's not a good idea for adults to wear big puffy coats either.
And yes, I do understand cold. the HIGH was 13 F here today. i don't think we hit it.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Also, Bundle Me's can be used safely in strollers, and they are nice for that. I see a lot of babies and toddlers zipped into them when it's cold out. So the product does have safe uses, just not in carseats.

My babe was almost 6 months by the time she saw real cold weather, but we just piled fleece blankets on her (on top of the carseat harness, of course) and made sure she had a hat and warm booties on. She was in a convertible by that time. If we had a fall/winter baby I'd consider one of the shower cap covers since they can't be kicked off so much, lol....


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGirls* 
Also, Bundle Me's can be used safely in strollers, and they are nice for that. I see a lot of babies and toddlers zipped into them when it's cold out. So the product does have safe uses, just not in carseats.

I also saw some pics of the back cut out of the bundle-me, so the fabric did not come in contact with the harness at all.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I just wanted to point out that I just moved a thread from the OP about this topic to activism:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1171197

If you feel strongly about aftermarket items on carseats, maybe you would like to visit that thread!


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
No, even those ones are unacceptable. They also tend to really alter how the harness fits the child.

Every single time I encounter one I get, "Oh, no, this is FINE, see the straps are tight!". And every single time I'm able to show the parent how it's not fine at all.

NO Bundle ME is safe to use in a child restraint, regardless of thickness.

It doesn't sound like you have taken the time to put a thinner one in a car seat to see how it fits. They do not alter the way the straps fit. I have three kids and have used more than a dozen car seats. I've taken three classes on how to properly install them. Thin fabric behind the baby does not alter the way the harness fits any more than clothing on the baby does. Unless a baby is put into the car seat naked their clothing and diaper bulk (especially with cloth ones) will alter the harness position slightly. I would be much more concerned with a baby put under one of those 'shower cap' style covers. Babies under those are rebreathing their own CO2. I learned in every class how important it is to never tent the car seat with a thick blanket and to never use anything waterproof (like some of those covers are) for more than a few moments since they don't allow enough oxygen in. This point was made especially clear at a fire department class when they told about being called to a parking lot in the middle of winter because a woman had one of those covers over her car seat and when she arrived at the store the baby wasn't breathing. The baby was ok but that is scary to think about.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I am a CPST. I have helped parents learn to install well over a thousand seats. I am quite familiar with the product you are describing, and no, regardless of your feelings about it, it is not an acceptable item to use in a child restraint, for any reason.

Furthermore, the shower cap style is completely safe when used properly. The sad anecdote you mentioned, if it in fact happened as described, was far more likely due to the parent having the infant seat too inclined in the car/on the ground/in the stroller or cart, which would lead to exactly that scenario.

CPS is a fact and statistics based field of study. If the sky is falling, the statistics will bear it out. If it isn't, it's important not to interject concerns that don't exist, thus further complicating something that is all ready too complicated for many parents.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Since those "bundle me" type buntings also go over the baby's face, in fact right over their face, aren't they just as likely to cause breathing problems? And all the shower-cap covers I've seen have a peephole you're supposed to open up after you're out of the worse of the cold.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
CPS is a fact and statistics based field of study. If the sky is falling, the statistics will bear it out. If it isn't, it's important not to interject concerns that don't exist, thus further complicating something that is all ready too complicated for many parents.

I have been looking for stats about injuries likely caused by the use of Bundle Mes! Where did you find them?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom* 
I have been looking for stats about injuries likely caused by the use of Bundle Mes! Where did you find them?









Please consult your child restraint manual for information about aftermarket products.

On the off chance that your question is not intended to be disguised sarcasm, feel free to post on car-seat.org for further information about the danger of inserting padding which is not intended to be there, between the child and the harness.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Hey now, that was uncalled for! I don't see how you read sarcasm into my honest question.









I don't have a Bundle Me, fwiw. But the controversy intrigued me, so I have been Googling around since I heard about it some time ago. I have been looking for stats about injuries caused by their use, but I came up empty.

I quoted you saying "*CPS is a fact and statistics based field of study. If the sky is falling, the statistics will bear it out.*" because I thought you were saying, as a CPST, you have those statistics. I believe they must exist, or you wouldn't be so adamant about spreading the word that Bundle Me-s are unsafe. It isn't just conjecture that Bundle Me-s are thick enough to compress, and change the way the harness works, right? Have 'they' done tests specifically on these things? I just want to have as much specific information as possible.

So, they have the statistics on carseat.org, then?


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