# Do you allow your children to fight back?



## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

When ds was at the playground today another kid who is a year older than ds (ds is 2.5) came up to him while ds was playing with shredded tire mulch and just start smacking him over and over and over and over in the face and on the head. By the time I got there to break it up ds was crying (he doesn't cry very easily) The boy's mom didnt think much of it and just told him to say he's sorry. Ds got over it pretty quickly. We kinda kept them apart for a little bit, but the next chance he got (like 20 minutes later) Ds ran up to the other kid at full speed and shoved him really hard. (so hard he fell backwards onto his butt) I immediately told ds pushing isn't the right thing to do and he said sorry. But then I kind of felt like that other kid was asking for it and ds probably felt like he needed to avenge himself. I have really mixed feelings on this. On one hand I don't want ds to fight, but I also don't want him to be a pushover.

What do you all think?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I'm kind of with you. It wouldn't be my FIRST choice but for a 2.5 year old I think it's a pretty predictable response. I don't know how much "use your words" or "just walk away" means to a child that age. I'm thinking not a whole heck of a lot.

In theory I'm all for using your words, but in reality if someone is smacking my child, I don't mind if my kid reacts physically if she has to. Of course, this is a long way off. I'd be upset if she jumped the other kid and beat the snot out of him/her but a good shove to get them off or away...that seems reasonable to me.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I believe in fighting back for self-defense purposes only. If your DS had pushed the kid *while* he was hitting him in order to make him stop hitting him, I think that would have been acceptable. I wouldn't condone him going over and pushing him 20 minutes later, after the whole episode should have been over, though.


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

During the initial altercation, I likely would have let it go.

20 minutes later is not defending yourself though, it's retaliation, and that I wouldn't stand for.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I agree with Becoming. And although I wouldn't condone him going over and shoving the other child 20 minuites later, I wouldn't be surprised either.

Quote:

But then I kind of felt like that other kid was asking for it and ds probably felt like he needed to avenge himself. I have really mixed feelings on this. On one hand I don't want ds to fight, but I also don't want him to be a pushover.
I don't think having a revenge mentality is helpful for anyone. Someone who walks away from an altercation is not a pushover.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I wonder though in his mind if he felt like we weren't doing anything to keep the other kid away from him and that was how he had to show him not to mess with him anymore? If our kids are being bullied (at a later age even) how do you teach them to defend themselves? What if authority figures aren't doing anything about it (which happens a lot).

I just never thought my 2 year old could hold onto something that long. Usually if something happens to him and another kid, they're find and playing together 2 minutes later. It's almost like he was stewing about it the whole time I kept him on the bench with me.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Just wondering what you wanted the other mother to do because I think people misinterpret how I deal with my ds (5) when he hits because I don't seem upset or disturbed. I also don't make him apologize. I do have private talks with him and take him home if it becomes clear that he can't play well. He is a bit unpredictable and I wish other kids (I'm talking much older than your ds, 6-9 yos) would move away from him when he gets wild instead of continuing to interact negatively (sometimes even egging him on to hit them). I can't exactly intervene when they are at the uppermost part of the playstructure.

Anyway, it doesn't sound like your ds is going to be a pushover no matter what. Some kids just seem to be born with an eye for an eye attitude and it is hard convincing them that retaliation isn't the best approach. BTW, I just finished reading Raising Cain and think anyone who knows a boy should read it


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I just never thought my 2 year old could hold onto something that long. Usually if something happens to him and another kid, they're find and playing together 2 minutes later. It's almost like he was stewing about it the whole time I kept him on the bench with me.

If the bench wasn't where he wanted to be, that might have prolonged bad feelings. It might have been different if ds spent 20 minutes engaged in another activity elsewhere on the playground, KWIM?


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

If our kids are being bullied (at a later age even) how do you teach them to defend themselves?
In the situation with your ds at the park, he wasn't defending himself. The incident was over.

Maybe you mean how could he defend himself from any further possible assaults? I would suggest that he play in a different area if it was a concern. He could also have you stay near him in case the child came towards him again. If it continued to be a problem, I would leave the park. If it was an ongoing problem, happening repeatedly with the same child, I would scope out the parents and possibly speak to them. If I didn't feel comfortable doing that, I would find a different park for the days that child was there.

I wouldn't fault your child for pushing the other boy, nor would I give the impression that it was a good solution. I would gently suggest playing away from the boy, "if you're worried that he might hit you again."


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## mcsarahb (Aug 25, 2003)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you want to know if this is normal 2-year-old behavior? Sure. Is it acceptable behavior? No, if you're trying to raise a child to know how to behave in a social atmosphere.

As your son gets older, will you teach him that people should use violence against their antagonists to "get even"? That is your choice.

I personally wouldn't get mad at or punish my 2-year-old who did such a thing, but I would be sure to tell her that it is not appropriate, and explain to her what she should do in such a situation if it arose again: leave the area, calmly tell the other child to please not bother her anymore, or (insert your preferred action here).

Those reactions I listed above are not behaviors of "pushovers," IMO; they are behaviors of mature humans who believe in pacifism and nonviolent interactions. And I like to think that I'm helping my toddler learn those behaviors through explanation and modeling.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

If my kids are physically assaulted, I do allow them to fight back in self defense.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I think people misinterpret how I deal with my ds (5) when he hits because I don't seem upset or disturbed. I also don't make him apologize.

I'm very curious, why not? So, if your DS hits another child, you don't say to the Mom (if she comes over) apologetically "I'm really sorry, he's just having a bad day" or "You will have to excuse DS, he just gets so excited" etc.

I come in peace







just really curious. I've never heard this before.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I have really mixed feelings on this. On one hand I don't want ds to fight, but I also don't want him to be a pushover.

What do you all think?

hmm, I too have mixed feelings over this. DH, on the other hand has a strong position on this that I care not go into.







:

If a child comes over and starts hitting DS, I absolutely want him to fight back in self defense. Even though, I couldn't stand the thought of my baby getting pummeled to death.

I dunno, not fighting back or "letting it go" does seem to send a message (especially to bullies) that if a child doesn't fight back, they will keep coming back again and again and again.

I was bullied as a young child. And everytime my Mama told me to go play outside, I vomited. I was too scared to tell her what was *really* going on. I was 9 years old. The Bully was 15. It went on for at least 2-3 months and I had the classic sypmtoms of a child who was being bullied.

Only Mama was too busy caught up in her social whirlwind to find a man she didn't notice her baby girl was being bullied







:

So, I tend to be biased over things like this. These kids Today don't *fight* they pull out guns and shoot to kill.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizaBear* 
During the initial altercation, I likely would have let it go.

20 minutes later is not defending yourself though, it's retaliation, and that I wouldn't stand for.









I would probably find a way to explain how to use our words to explain our feelings about what had happened. Violence, IMO, is unacceptable, and yes, yes, you know it's coming....wait for it..............

Two wrongs don't make a right!!!!








All cliches aside, I would work with dc to find a better solution than physical retaliation.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Well of course, if being assaulted, I hope they'd fight back...otherwise, no, violence is never the answer.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I probably should have said this kid is in my playgroup but I forgot, so it's not as simple as going to another playground and I am not willing to quit the playgroup.

When the other mom came over she dealt with it by saying "thats how he plays, he does that to his baby sister all the time" and then said "say you're sorry" (which I dont think is almost ever sincere when you're being told to say it) It was clear to me that it was not in a playful way though.

I'm going to talk to dh more on this and see what he thinks.

I do think it's important to learn self defense. Do you all think martial arts at an older age are appropriate for learning that?


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lurable* 







I would probably find a way to explain how to use our words to explain our feelings about what had happened. Violence, IMO, is unacceptable, and yes, yes, you know it's coming....wait for it..............

Two wrongs don't make a right!!!!








All cliches aside, I would work with dc to find a better solution than physical retaliation.


DS really doesn't have many words right now. Is there another way? Ive found that telling him to use his words just frustrates him.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I'm very curious, why not? So, if your DS hits another child, you don't say to the Mom (if she comes over) apologetically "I'm really sorry, he's just having a bad day" or "You will have to excuse DS, he just gets so excited" etc.

I come in peace







just really curious. I've never heard this before.

It wouldn't even occur to me to apologize for someone else's behavior. He isn't having a bad day or anything when these things happen. It does usually mean he is getting tired and we should head home. He is not a mellow kid, so excitable is the norm. I guess I would have to end up apologizing for ds being ds which isn't a message that I want to send to him.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
IWhen the other mom came over she dealt with it by saying "thats how he plays, he does that to his baby sister all the time" and then said "say you're sorry" (which I dont think is almost ever sincere when you're being told to say it) It was clear to me that it was not in a playful way though.

See, her response would have made me feel better because at least she is *acknowleging* her child was wrong.

That's all I would ask of any parent, just acknowledgement...anything else (simply igorning) is rude.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Jokerama said:


> When the other mom came over she dealt with it by saying "thats how he plays, he does that to his baby sister all the time" and then said "say you're sorry" (which I dont think is almost ever sincere when you're being told to say it) It was clear to me that it was not in a playful way though. [/QUOTE
> 
> She sounds like she is sending mixed messages, excusing the behavior on one hand as acceptable by calling it play yet telling her ds to apologize. Also giving the message that anything he does is OK as long as it is followed by "I'm sorry."


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
See, her response would have made me feel better because at least she is *acknowleging* her child was wrong.

Interesting







. It would have annoyed me rather than made me feel better. I will have to consider apologizing on my ds' behalf sometimes after this discussion. I'm always seen walking over to talk to ds and getting ready to head home shortly thereafter if there is a repeat of the behavior. I guess I just assume that the other mothers think that I am not in favor of violence, but they might have their doubts (not knowing me very well yet).

This other mother just sent me daggers after my ds grabbed her dd by the shirt when her dd started riding my ds' bike away. When the mom earlier saw her dd on my ds' bike, she asked me if it was OK. I said yes that my ds wasn't usually possessive of things that he wasn't using. He had been fine letting her use it previously but must have decided it was his turn and neglected to convey that verbally. A previous time that he wanted the bike back, he orchestrated a great trade, by giving her another toy to use when she got off the bike. The mom wouldn't let her get near ds' bike again and went home to get her dd's bike so she wouldn't be tempted. What should happen, IMO, is that she should encourage her dd to ask each time and I should encourage my ds to tell her if he wants it back. Part of the problem I have is that I seem to be the only mom who actually pays attention to everything that happens leading up to a issue.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I believe in fighting back for self-defense purposes only. If your DS had pushed the kid *while* he was hitting him in order to make him stop hitting him, I think that would have been acceptable. I wouldn't condone him going over and pushing him 20 minutes later, after the whole episode should have been over, though.


YUP me too.

However... secretly??? I'd have been kinda glad he did that. But, NONE of the people involved would have known that. LOL


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

I believe in fighting back for self-defense purposes only. If your DS had pushed the kid *while* he was hitting him in order to make him stop hitting him, I think that would have been acceptable. I wouldn't condone him going over and pushing him 20 minutes later, after the whole episode should have been over, though.
I totally agree.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i was just reading this thread and the "say you're sorry" thread with interest. how would you feel if the two boys in this scenario were brothers? what if the big brother were hitting the little brother on the head and then 20 minutes later the younger brother pushed the big brother down. would that change your feelings about the incident?

i have a dd1 who is actually a very very gentle child except with her little sister (almost 3) and i often do strongly encourage them to say they're sorry (with specifics, like "i'm sorry for hitting you on the head"). dd1, while really gentle and sweet, is not very empathetic at all. i mean she's 5 so it's really an age of ego of course, but she rarely seems upset if someone else is hurt or crying. she's only upset about things about her. i feel like i really need to work on empathy with her, but i'm not sure the best way to go about it. at the same time, i don't want her to "get away with" whacking little dd on the head without somehow making amends. maybe saying she's sorry and hugging isn't the best way, but i don't want dd2 to get the message that whacking is okay.

in answer to the original post, i wouldn't be happy if my kid pushed another one 20 minutes later. i do think it would be perfectly okay for him to defend himself during the attack to the extent of extricating himself from it. calling for help is fine. using his words is fine if he can do that. if he has trouble with knowing what to say i would work on a phrase just for such situations -- "stop it! i don't like that!" springs to mind. ideally, he wouldn't hit back, but would just stop the blows, but that would be a rare rare 2.5 yr old who was that much of a martial arts master!! 20 minutes later, not so cool, but i wouldn't be really angry about it. i would explain that although he might still be mad about being hit it's not right to hit or push. two wrongs as somebody else already said...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wouldn't be upset about the original scenario, but I would tell my child that it's not okay to push people. I think that, at 2.5, it's perfectly understandable behaviour and doesn't worry me in the slightest, but I also think it's my job to teach him when he's crossing boundaries in his social behaviour. So...I guess I'd handle it just like the OP.

As for the whole "I'm sorry" thing. I don't make my kids apologize, and I don't exactly apologize _for_ them, either. If dd (my aggressive one!) were to push/hit a child on the playground, I would probably say something like, "I'm sorry that happened - dd is making a lot of progress at dealing with her aggression, but she still has a ways to go"...apologizing for the incident, and letting the other child and parent know that it is something we're dealing with. I'd hate to leave them with the impression that I just don't care that their child was hit!

I might suggest to dd, out of earshot, that it would be nice to apologize, but I won't force the matter. If she doesn't feel sorry, I see no value in making her mouth the words. I don't have a problem with "empty" social pleasantries, such as "please" and "thank you" at the dinner table, or whatever. But, I _hate_ insincere forced apologies with a passion. I was on the receiving end of many of them when I was younger, and I much preferred no apology at all to one given under duress. I also don't think that "say you're sorry" teaches kids anything about empathy or repentance.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
DS really doesn't have many words right now. Is there another way? Ive found that telling him to use his words just frustrates him.

*I* would be his words- not even to the other child/parent, just between dc and me. Giving words to the emotions can be helpful for the child who is learning how to identify them. "I bet that you are feeling pretty ______" "If someone hurts you, you can tell them No! or Stop!" something like that. Talk it through together and maybe, if the feeling of retaliation is still present, address that as well. If the child really feels strongly I could see perhaps taking dc to the "offender" and explaining for dc. This provides a good model for all involved.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

DD doesn't typically get in confrontations, but I do let her stand up for her right to space. Going and hitting someone several minutes later isn't what I would consider standing up for herself though. We have talked about when it is okay to push someone off of or away from her space and she pretty much sticks with that.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

This sounds to me more of an issue that your DS didn't feel a satisfactory resolution to his assault, and was still feeling angry and violated.

I try to approach these things from that angle and talk to DS about how he's feeling - gently delving if it's not right on the surface - and helping him resolve his emotions at that time, before they naturally re-appear as violence.

It's been my expeience that DS really only needs an ally, an understander of his plight, and he doesn't so much care if the actual attacker feels his pain or not, as long as there's a friend to feel his pain with him. If I provide him that, he let's it go with the other kid.

Now that said, in that situation, I would also be right there at the time of the incident talking to the other kid about his reasons for assaulting my kid in the first place. If there is something that can be agreed on like, "I hit him because I don't want to share my sandbox toys," then I negotiate for that with DS. I try to model to DS standing up for himself verbally in the moment, by doing just that.

There's no way he'd get hit repeatedly.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
It wouldn't even occur to me to apologize for someone else's behavior. He isn't having a bad day or anything when these things happen. It does usually mean he is getting tired and we should head home. He is not a mellow kid, so excitable is the norm. I guess I would have to end up apologizing for ds being ds which isn't a message that I want to send to him.


How about "I'm so sorry that ds hit you."

I'm hoping here that you ARE indeed sorry that your child struck another person. You don't have to excuse his behavior, or make him apologize...but it would go a long way if you apologized to the victim yourself.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

I do not apologize for my kids being who they are, but I do apologize for their actions to model for them to someday do the same on their own. My ds1 will often hit ds2. When that happens, I always say to ds2 "I'm sorry ds1 hit you. He needs to learn that we do not hit each other because hitting hurts." If someone's child hit or hurt mine, I would expect the parent to say right away that s/he was sorry that their child did that to mine, and then if they want to offer an explanation, such as "we're working on agression" or whatever, that's fine. No explanation is fine too. But I think parents should apologize with sincerity for their child's actions, especially if the child is not likely to do it. It's good modeling, and if done well it doesn't make the agressor feel that you're apologizing for them as a person. You're not saying they are bad, you're just saying that their actions are not appropriate.

My two oldest do fight back and forth sometimes, ds2 will hit ds1, and ds1 will immediately push ds2 away (which often makes him fall over because it's a hefty push). Personally, I do not like them going back and forth, even if they are sticking up for themselves. I tell them both that the hitting and pushing are not okay, that they can leave the area to get away from their brother, or call for help from me.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
How about "I'm so sorry that ds hit you."

I'm hoping here that you ARE indeed sorry that your child struck another person. You don't have to excuse his behavior, or make him apologize...but it would go a long way if you apologized to the victim yourself.

This is what I do - it is sincere - I am truly sorry, and I'm also modeling for my son. I will tell the other child I am sorry DS hit him, and then I will talk to DS and let him know that, "Hitting hurts, see how he is crying? We are gentle with our hands." Usually DS will go over and offer a kiss (we kiss everything better in our house!) and I just try to keep a closer eye on him for the rest of the time.

This just happened this morning, actually, and that is what I did. I had to "break them up" several times during the meeting b/c they were just clashing today. I think DS is very sensitive to someone being aggressive toward him - he will frequently be aggressive right back, even later on, with that same child. If they are struggling together, it's just a matter of separating them - no need to let them keep fighting over the same toy at 18-20 months old. Distractions is our main tool


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## OriginalGirlGamer (Jan 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I do think it's important to learn self defense. Do you all think martial arts at an older age are appropriate for learning that?

yes. most schools start taking kids around 4 or 5, 4 being the youngest i've seen. they teach them coordination, left and right, and discipline like standing still and being respectful. of course they don't spar or anything like that, and the belt system is different as well. they teach you not to be the agressor and to only use what you know in self defense.

I was in it to curb my hyperness, and to learn self defense. as soon as my son hits 4, he's going in too. its a really good idea and i recommend it to any parent.


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## rharr! (Nov 9, 2005)

Yes I do.

I have always told my daughter to use her words first, but if she is being physically hurt and the attacker is not listening to her words then she should fight back.

At two, I would have stayed in arms reach if I knew there was an aggressive child in the area so that I could protect her myself and she could just 'be'.

She has an aggressive boy friend(not to be confused with boyfriend), DD was a target for him, not entirely sure why. Maybe because he liked hearing her squeel, or because she did not retaliate.
First I tried just talking to the boy, and tried to model 'gentle'. That didnt work and it was enough conflict that I stopped playdates until DD and him both got older. She to do a bit of looking out for herself -ie see him coming, get out of the way, using her words effectively, come to me or his mom- and him in the hopes he would outgrow he behaviour.
When we resumed visiting and his behaviour had no chaged I told her that if her body is being hurt and her words are not working, she should punch or push whoever is hurting her until they stopped.
The next time this boy attacked her, first she told him to stop because he was hurting her, then she told him if he didnt stop she was going to punch him in the nose, then she punched him in the nose.
And he finally got the message and stopped hurting her.

He occasionally still gets rough(he is very impulsive), but she, at four, can now stick up for herself if they are out is the yard, or another part of the house. And with other children if need be.

I was warned that telling my dd to fight back would make her aggressive, but it hasnt. Nor does she react to violence with violence. She is very good about using her words first, and I back up what she is saying if I need to. Since that first punch, I think she has physically defended herself a total of 4 times.

I would rather my daughter know she can protect herself then to be harmed. At any age.


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## grypx831 (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I believe in fighting back for self-defense purposes only. If your DS had pushed the kid *while* he was hitting him in order to make him stop hitting him, I think that would have been acceptable. I wouldn't condone him going over and pushing him 20 minutes later, after the whole episode should have been over, though.

Same for me


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
If our kids are being bullied (at a later age even) how do you teach them to defend themselves? What if authority figures aren't doing anything about it (which happens a lot).

This is something I have been struggling a lot with. My DS is being bullied in preschool and the teacher only keeps repeating "Keep your hands to yourself". I've done the "right" thing and told DS to tell the boy to stop and say "I don't want to play with you anymore" and to walk away. And to tell a teacher. but the hitting isn't stopping. And there is a big part of me that wants to tell him "The next time that boy hits you, you punch him as hard as you can." But I know that isn't right. It sure is tempting though. It makes me so sad to hear how this boy keeps hitting my son.

At Gymboree one time, when DS was 2.5, a boy would not stop hitting him and the mom was doing nothing to stop it. She would just say "No, we don't hit" and then he would go right back to hitting my DS. Well, DS finally had enough and after the boy had hit him for like the 3rd or 4th time, DS smacked that child so hard and the boy never bothered him again. DH was with him at the time and he didn't say a word to my DS.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

i refuse to raise a pushover. altho i don't like fighting and i don't believe in throwing the first punch if someone's picking on you, everyone has a right to defend themselves.

we've all seen too many times what bullying leads to.







getting into a little scuffle with a kid who's picking on you is MUCH healthier than taking a physical, mental, and emotional beating day after day, letting it bottle up, and end up totally snapping.


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Self defense is fine with me. If it goes beyond that, then I might have to step in and assist with the situation.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

I come from a totally different POV. We have a pretty strong policy that hands and feet are NEVER for hurting.

1. I never make excuses for my kid to other folks. Never. I dont know why they do what they do and there are no excuses for violent behavior.

2. I give lots of words. I describe what I see. If a child is being physically hurt, they need intervention and I give that by physically separating them. Hitting back is just more hitting and I don't think you are a pushover if you walk away. I get both children out of danger and I start talking. My dialog looks like this:
"wow, abc looks really angry and is using his hands to hit xyz"
"when xyz gets hit it really hurts him too"
"hands are for helping, not for hitting"

At this point I try some redirection. "hey lets go do this..."

I always tell my children that if someone is hurting them, come find me if your words don't work. first we ask to be nice, next we walk away, then we ask for help.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I've always felt it's my job to protect and defend my DS. If that means I need to stay nearby him on the playground, that's what I do. If that means I need to quit a playgroup (I'm not saying you should quit it based on this one incident) then that's what I would do. He is learning how to deal with these things, but no, I don't expect him to go out and fight off the bullies at age 5. I do think he'll try karate or tae kwan do but it's not so I can be relieved of my duty to be aware of what's going on and to step in when necessary.

I personally haven't had to rely on others to supervise my DS (the OP asked about authority figures not doing a good job preventing bullying, this is not a statement designed to put down anyone who uses daycares or schools), but if I did and there was bullying going on, I would pull my child out of the situation first and then figure out the solution. Bullying shouldn't be a part of childhood and I wouldn't expect my child to have to deal with it by fighting back.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I feel much the same as the above poster. Simon is 2.5 and hasn't been assaulted by anyone. I hope this remains the case. If some child hit him on the head over and over again, Simon would have been hysterical and it probably would shake him up for a long time. He may seem to recover from the incident after 5-10 minutes (assuming he was actually hurt and scared by it), but based on how he's responded to past upsets of seeing/hearing people act in violent ways, I think the after-affects would linger. I don't see this as a fault in him and do not want him to learn violence as a response to violence. He knows that he should not be hit and the knowledge that other people go around hitting each other is deeply distrubing and threatening. It really shatters one's sense of safety. I do not want such violence to be a part of our lives. I was bullied in school -- mainly in psychological ways -- and that is part of why I can't imagine ever sending Simon to school, unless there is something rare and special about the school that could somehow convince me that it's a safe and worthwhile place for him to be.

If Simon were hit like that, I'm pretty sure that we would end up leaving the park immediately -- and that this is what Simon would prefer to do. If he wanted to stay, we'd keep a good distance from the child who attacked him, or at the very least I would be sure that that child would have zero opportunity to attack my son again.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

If my child were being bullied, I would encourage her to fight back physically if words weren't working to stop the bully.

I was bullied for years and years in school. I would tell the mean kids to stop, but that just seemed to egg them on. I would tell my mother. She would tell me NOT to fight back physically, just to use my words, but my words never worked! Teachers and the principal were called repeatedly, but they did nothing to stop the bullying.

Finally in high school after being bullied every day for a couple of years by the same kids, I was just completely fed up with the neverending abuse. I walked up to two of the kids and lightly struck each bully once (very lightly, I should add, the blows were really just symbolic not physically damaging). They retaliated, and I narrowly escaped being beaten up by a teacher's sudden appearance, but the most important part is THEY NEVER BOTHERED ME AGAIN. AND NO OTHER KID DID EITHER.

I abhor violence, but based on personal experience I have to say that sometimes it's the only thing that works when one is being abused and bullied. And I would consider this type of fighting back to be in self-defense. For example, sometimes the only opportunity that battered women have to fight back against their abusers is during a moment of "peace," but the courts are now recognizing this as self-defense even though it's delayed.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

This all reminds me of "A Christmas Story" where that Scott Farkus kid and his little friend or brother would attack Ralphie and his friends every day or so. For whoever didn't see this...they just took it and took it until the day that Ralphie was having a bad day at school and on the way home, they hit him in the face with the snowball and they kept calling him a "crybaby" and stuff until he ran over and knocked Scott over and started beating him up and when the other kid told him to stop, he got knocked on his butt. Those kids left him alone after that. My point is...do I have one? lol. Yes...that eventually you can't take it anymore. I could have easily become a kid that killed myself or others in school. I was bullied for years. In fact, a kid at my school did kill himself because of it.

It's really tough. You don't want to encourage violence...I really hate fighting and the idea of hurting another person but sometimes you have to. I have been struggling about what to teach Julia about this because she is 6 and I am worried about this stuff. As much as I hate it, I am looking back on my crappy childhood to help her. I always felt like it was wrong to fight back...even with words. I think it starts with that....with girls especially...we are taught to be nice and quiet so if someone tries to bother us we tend to be soft-spoken and say "please stop." I want to teach her to not be afraid to have a strong voice and shout "STOP THAT NOW! DON'T TOUCH ME!" which also works for abductors/molestors. There was something about that on "The Gift of Fear" about how females send mixed messages and we're afraid to hurt someone's feelings.

I think if using words and getting outside help doesn't work then you can give a good hit or kick


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
This all reminds me of "A Christmas Story" where that Scott Farkus kid and his little friend or brother would attack Ralphie and his friends every day or so. For whoever didn't see this...they just took it and took it until the day that Ralphie was having a bad day at school and on the way home, they hit him in the face with the snowball and they kept calling him a "crybaby" and stuff until he ran over and knocked Scott over and started beating him up and when the other kid told him to stop, he got knocked on his butt. Those kids left him alone after that. My point is...do I have one? lol. Yes...that eventually you can't take it anymore. I could have easily become a kid that killed myself or others in school. I was bullied for years. In fact, a kid at my school did kill himself because of it.

I think these situations, this one and the pp's, are a little different than a 3 yo and a 2.5 yo at a playground. I personally don't think a child can really be a bully when they're 3.5, even if they're engaging in what seems like bullying behavior. They're just too forthright, they don't really get it, from what I've seen.

I don't condone hitting, ever. We have lots of situations like the OPs, right here in our very family, since there are two kids. And like a pp said, it's never okay, even if 5 minutes ago dd whapped ds on the head. It is still not acceptable to retaliate. And if it's not acceptable here, it's that much more unacceptable on the playground. I'm certainly not worried about raising a pushover.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

A few Mothering articles I've found helpful:

Bullies

Self-Defense

Don't Just Stand There

I would have to say that for me, personally, hitting is _never_ okay.


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## Profmom (Feb 13, 2002)

Interesting article on bullying, but I didn't like the way the author referred to children as 'bullies' - and then later suggested that the parents of children who were bullying others should object to having their child labeled as such. No child is a "Bully" - imo - children may bully others, but that isn't the sum of their identity. The author had many good insights, but I thought she was wrong to label! My child was bullied so badly last year (extortion and name calling) that we pulled him out of an expensive private school, but the child who was doing it was a 12yo child with a problem with bullying - not a "Bully".


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
When ds was at the playground today another kid who is a year older than ds (ds is 2.5) came up to him while ds was playing with shredded tire mulch and just start smacking him over and over and over and over in the face and on the head. By the time I got there to break it up ds was crying (he doesn't cry very easily) The boy's mom didnt think much of it and just told him to say he's sorry. Ds got over it pretty quickly. We kinda kept them apart for a little bit, but the next chance he got (like 20 minutes later) Ds ran up to the other kid at full speed and shoved him really hard. (so hard he fell backwards onto his butt) I immediately told ds pushing isn't the right thing to do and he said sorry. But then I kind of felt like that other kid was asking for it and ds probably felt like he needed to avenge himself. I have really mixed feelings on this. On one hand I don't want ds to fight, but I also don't want him to be a pushover.

What do you all think?

I would not encourage it...but I absolutely understand why your DS did that, and believe me, I'm having a reaaaaaly hard time working up any sympathy for the other kid.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I probably should have said this kid is in my playgroup but I forgot, so it's not as simple as going to another playground and I am not willing to quit the playgroup.

When the other mom came over she dealt with it by saying "thats how he plays, he does that to his baby sister all the time" and then said "say you're sorry" (which I dont think is almost ever sincere when you're being told to say it) It was clear to me that it was not in a playful way though.

I'm going to talk to dh more on this and see what he thinks.

I do think it's important to learn self defense. Do you all think martial arts at an older age are appropriate for learning that?

My DS is 9 now but used to be very scared of other kids up until 1-2 years ago. When he was younger, i always stressed that he let the teacher know what was going on and other nonviolent alternatives - although there were a few times when he was sort of "forced" to fight back. I.e., in preschool this really really strong, aggressive kid physically fighting him - not just hitting once or twice - but fighting him. He took tae kwon do and takes capoeira now. I don't think either of those have done him much good. BUT, i remember talking to a dad who told me you should be really selective when choosing a martial arts program and teacher. In the DC area, they come a dime a dozen. But, I got the impression from this dad that a good teacher will not only teach self-discipline but self-defense too and help your child's esteem. For 6 months while my DS attended a local school in Ecuador he was in about 30 fights because of racism. I told him not to go back to school but he didn't want to stop going - he was 8 at the time. He was sometimes jumped by more than 1 boy at a time. I dreaded each day - always wondering how my baby would look when I saw him in the afternoon. Through all that negativity, the one positive thing that I've noticed is that now he will stand up for himself against the big boy bully types. He is no longer scared. He is not a fighting type of child though and prefers to be dancing or singing, but he has been threatened since we've been back to teh U.S. and just simply used his words to stand up for himself with confidence. I think speaking with confidence _ for older kids- works alot and eliminates the need for things to get physical.


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