# What do you do that cancels our your NFL/AP/CRUNCHY/NON-Mainstream/MDCness?



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Feel free to let loose and come clean! Here, I'll start.

I dont vax, but both my boys are circed.

I will not buy canned anything, but the fruits and veggies I do buy are store bough, NON ORGANIC.

We eat meat. LOTS OF MEAT.

I will give ABX for an ear infection, chased with probiotics in the non organic, 2% milk or GASP Silk.

I feed my children McDonalds chicken nuggets while we are on the way to the zoo.

I nursed as long as I could with both, but had to give bottles at 6 weeks so I could go back to work.

I smoke. Its a nasty habbit I wish I had never started as a teenager. I have tried quitting several times. (Obviously)

OK, theres Charlies Angel in a nutshell. FYI, this is not ALL of who I am.


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## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

we have watched waaaay too much tv since little man was born- it's all I used to do at home with him









my ds is also circed, and has been vaccinated for certain things

I have yelled before...

we eat a lot of non organic produce

ds (18 month) eats sweets when we do, and not date-sweetened tofu smoothie treats either lol


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

I love bleach. Love it.  Love all household chemicals. That is more being un- NP and less about AP but they're practically interchangable so that is my confession. Also, DS is watching way too much TV too. And has been getting time outs lately.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

We vaccinate.

We use paper towels <gasp!>

We watch all sorts of tv and even play a video game or two.

We also use toilet paper.

We buy non-organic produce

My kids had ice cream and cotton candy tonight

I had three hospital births

Oh, big one..... we don't recycle

I'm sure there's more. I'm not super crunchy.


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## Eligracey (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for starting this, Charlie's Angel!

As I mentioned in the other thread, I had a CNM birth, not a UC.

I pumped and bottle fed when my son started daycare, and I'm doing mother-led weaning now at 2.5.

We did disposable diapers because daycare wouldn't allow cloth.

I fully vax on-time, all the time, and he's taking antibiotics right now! for an ear infection that all the breastmilk sadly did not prevent.









My son started sleeping in a crib around 10 months.

We had Chick-fil-a for dinner tonight. mmmmm, Chick-fil-a....

Edited to add: I believe time-outs are a wonderful, wonderful thing. And so is public school. For free, someone will teach my kid to read! For free, y'all!

Of course, I wouldn't say that this CANCELS out my AP-ness. As I said earlier, my son knows he is loved and cherished above all else and I'm the center of his world, which is the most important thing, is it not? Far more important than the checklists of crunchiness.


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

Ooooh - i like this thread!

I use chemicals to clean - including Tide and Oxy Clean on my cloth diapers

I only CD part time

i do not know what a paraben is - nor why i should avoid it.

i have my 25lb 10 month old son in a Front facing car seat and i have no plans to change it.

I often use a stroller

we watch TV all day, every day. (this is the one thing i am working on changing!)

we do not eat organic produce - although i do make all my own baby food.

whenever Oreos are on sale - i buy them.

I used to smoke - when my oldest two were little i smoked - in the house, in the car, i smoked. Of course, i didnt know what AP was back then!


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## melijack1 (Nov 18, 2008)

Okay, I'll put myself out there.

DS is circ'd, although if I had known then what I know now, he wouldn't be.

I only breastfed for three months, and it was not exclusive BF'ing because of my return to work, and not knowing how to save my supply from crashing and burning. If I could do that over again, I would change things to help keep my supply up.

DS is fully vax'd, though I did delay/stagger them. I don't regret it, and I will continue to have him vax'd basically on schedule.

I have no desire to SAHM, even if I could afford it.

I did not, do not, and will not in the future co-sleep. I did and will room-in for a while, but no family bed for me.

I will say...I am more "crunchy" now than I was when DS was born. If I am ever blessed with another baby, I will bf as long as I possibly can and do whatever I can to keep my supply up. I will use cloth diapers. I won't circ. I will make my own baby food more often than I did with DS. I will do more babywearing. I will hire a doula for my birth (which will be in a hospital, with an OB, due to insurance reasons). I have learned a lot from this community, and will take what I've learned. I just wish I was more accepted, and felt "safer" to share here.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

My 3 year old is still breastfeeding, but my twin 6 month olds are bottle-fed. Formula. Not even organic formula, plain old Target brand.

The twins sleep most of the night in a different room from us.

We do not have cable, but my 3yo can navigate Netflix online like a pro. And does, a lot.

We rarely buy organic food. My 3yo drinks chocolate milk and undiluted juice.

The boys are intact and unvaxed. The girl has had several vaxes.

I use cloth diapers and mama cloth, but I also use paper towels, store bought baby wipes, toilet paper, and instead cups.

The boys' favorite toy is currently a light-up music making battery operated toy with a spinning dancing bear on top. And I love it.

My daughter recognizes and loves McDonalds.

I am a crazy babywearer, but I also own three strollers. And a wagon. They take up most of my garage. And I adore them.

My daughter was born in a hospital, with pitocin. And it wasn't awful.

My sons were born in an operating room. One of them by cesarean. And the cesarean was the less traumatic birth, by far.

And now, I am going to go eat some glazed donut holes.


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## milletpuff (Jul 4, 2008)

This thread RULEZ. Thank you. I think it helps to negate the mommy guilt and the fear that we are all doing it WRONG all the time! We ALL want the best in our lives, and hopefully we can take what we like from AP and leave the rest, without being put down or attacked.

I don't have kids so I can't fail at AP yet  but we don't eat much organic food, we drive a lot, and I would rather pour bleach in my eyes than stay home full time (working FT is too much tho - 20 hrs per week out of the home = perfection).


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Before this thread gets deleted (with warnings to all--as similar threads were under the old UA...so we'll see)

Me:

Children fully vaccinated. I will put them on antibiotics if necessary.

Kids have their own rooms, however, we may be moving the two younger back into our room (with their own beds).

We have strollers. And and Ergo and sling. Which we use depends on circumstances.

Can't afford organic.

Use disposable diapers. And cloth, but tend to grab the sposies because they are easier. I want to get the baby potty trained.

Was induced with DS on pitocin due to PROM. All children born at the hospital, with CNM.

I allow "junk food", but no artificial colors due to the kids being very sensitive to them (autistic/adhd behaviors)

I medicate DD1 for ADHD (concerta and ritalin)

DS is not circ'd.

We use various forms of discipline, to include: time outs, grounding, and spanking.

We use "non-natural" cleaning products...409, love the smell of pine-sol lemon.

We had every form of "baby-holder" one can imagine: swing, bouncy seat, jumpy-thing.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Two of my sons are circ'd though the one I'm pregnant with atm won't be.

My kids have been known to eat hot dogs.

I use tampons and toilet paper and paper towels and disposable wipes.

I drink a ton of cherry pepsi.

I selectively vax.

My kids go to public school.

We do time outs and I consider my kids to be children and not mini adults.

We room share but not co-sleep.

My babies use pacis.

We brush our teeth with floride toothpaste.

I breastfed all three kids for a year but would like to try for two this time.

I buy very little in the way of organic food.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, actually, all the things that people have listed are really things against natural family living. I'm only mildly crunchy and I know it. We're pretty AP in that we listen to our children's needs and adjust our parenting accordingly.

We vax ,and I'm very comfortable with that decision.

We used disposable diapers. I would have liked to use cloth, but dh was the one home with the kids when I went back to work, and he couldn't/wouldn't do it. I couldn't impose that on him.

Nutella is one of my son's staple food groups (it's also the only thing that keeps him from being completely underweight).

Sugar is known and loved in our house. My kids have consumed foods with high fructose corn syrup. They've eaten at McD's.

Ds slept in a crib until he was, gasp, FIVE. (Because we couldn't move him out of it. He loved his crib.)

We public school. You couldn't pay me to homeschool (not that I'm philosophically opposed to it, but because I would suck at it).

I never wore my kids much -- ds because he hated it (the picture below is as comfortable as he ever got) -- forward carries, mei tais, slings, wraps all freaked him out. (I learned later it was because of his hypersensitivities and his tendency toward claustrophobia. Who knew that could manifest itself as young as 4 weeks?) Dd never was worn much because she was a hefty little chunk and my back was not strong enough after her birth to carry her.


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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

I watch tv and so do my kiddos. I've tried to quit but that didn't work out... Like we watch waaay to much tv, it's on a few hours a day now...

We've started eating some canned foods (I've only eaten canned food on very rare occasions before) I used to only eat foods from CSAs and farmers markets

My van (when it used to run) gets really bad gas mileage around 10mpg! I never drove it much but I always felt guilty about that.

My dogs aren't vegetarian anymore.

My house gets sprayed with chemicals for ants (I have no say in this the landlord does it)

Both of my kids were born at a hospital (naturally and right after getting there though)

My son uses a paci and loves it. He was hospitalized for pneumonia at three weeks and came out loving paci's and bottles!

ETA: Nutella (my daughter goes through a couple of jars a week)

Also are there things you would consider AP but not crunchy? Or crunchy but not AP?


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Okay, well, then non-ap things:

We use time-outs often.

I have yelled at my kids.

My kids can have some say in what happens around our house, but for the most part, mom and dad are boss. That's it. No discussions.

We have grounded our daughter.

I will cancel activities for bad behavior.

There are limits on what my kids do. They will not play video games all day, because they want to.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Well, actually, all the things that people have listed are really things against natural family living. I'm only mildly crunchy and I know it. We're pretty AP in that we listen to our children's needs and adjust our parenting accordingly.
> 
> ...


Oooo picture proof, yes!! Sooo adorable!!

Here is my three year old with her paci.










There. My secret's out.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I had two c-sections, the second one planned.

We eat mostly non organic.

We used disposable diapers.

DD will be going to public school starting next year with kindergarten.

We vax.

My DD was supplemented with formula if my DH ran out of expressed milk, when I worked on Saturdays.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Some of these I get, and I do some of them, but I don't understand having a discussion on a NFL/ AP message board on how un-NFL and un-AP you are. Obviously, no one is perfect.

It doesn't make a lick of difference to me if someone uses sposies, formula feeds by choice, eats sugar (we do!!), eats fast food sometimes (we do), vaxes, etc etc etc.

Some of these are just sad though. I don't get why someone would admit on MDC that they hit their kids, or that they are comfortable with (illegally) front facing a baby, when (I assume) they know it's MUCH less safe to do so.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I'll post over here too.

I cried my eyes out one day when my lovely oldest son was well somewhere between 6 and 9 months old because it was summer and it was after I stopped exclusively pumping for him. I had just been to a meeting of our local homeschool group at the park, and some mom there asked me what my child eats then if he's allergic to all things dairy and soy and I don't breastfeed. She'd seen me feed him his bottle and was in on a conversation I was having about his allergies--now outgrown.

I probably was not very nice when I informed her it was Nutramigen. I'm not sure I added any more of my story.

FOUR LC's could not figure out how to undo what the hospital's policies had done to us.

I pumped exclusively for 6 months and listened to my child go through colic HELL till we figured out his allergies. I eliminated those things from my diet while pumping. I'm not sure when I stopped crying when I'd make a bottle of formula because I just could not pump enough. Or how much time I spent online learning about what I could do to make more milk...how much time I spent attached to that pump instead of my baby.

I now have a happy, healthy, thriving 6 year old--and by the way, we didn't end up homeschooling.

I still get angry if I think back too much on that...now that I have 3 other babies who I *have* been able to breastfeed, I know what I missed with him, and it makes me FURIOUS. I know what I should do with that energy is take it into being part of the change I want to see...I just heard a fabulous speaker last weekend who pointed out that people like the nurses I had are overworked and not educated in natural birth and practices that support breastfeeding.

I am not exactly sure where I'm going to go with that.

If I could go back though, with only the knowledge I had then, and nothing that would change the fact that we did not get breastfeeding established, I would NOT pump again. Why? Well, for me, I got focused on the fact that he was not 100% mama milk fed and obsessed with finding ways to get us to that point. While I was doing that, I lost sight of how much time I spent hooked to the pump and into a computer looking for answers. It took a whole lot of joy out of raising my baby.

I remember telling my email 'breastfeeding challenges' group when my baby started solids that this was the first time I truly enjoyed feeding him.

I think feeding felt 'normal' again....it wasn't about what didn't work out anymore.

That's all me and my view. *I* felt like *I* failed my baby.....but now I realize what matters is a happy, healthy kid who was and is loved and has always known it.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Some of these I get, and I do some of them, but I don't understand having a discussion on a NFL/ AP message board on how un-NFL and un-AP you are. Obviously, no one is perfect.
> 
> ...


You may not care about those things but it is a big bone of contention around here, in general. In a recent thread formula feeding by choice was likened to child abuse.

ETA: I do think it's ill advised to forward face a ten month old...


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

My son is circumcised, though this was his biological mother's choice. I was at the hospital when he was born, but did not challenge her because I didn't want her to change her mind...

We use the Dr. Sears Vaccination Schedule, and are behind on it, but we do vaccinate.

Babywearing hurts me. I have back and joint issues, and can only do it for a little while. Usually I don't go out by myself with the babe, so we carry him and trade off, but I use the stroller when necessary.

My baby is on formula. I do have a friend that donates breastmilk, but I chose not to induce lactation so I could stay on Zoloft.

My baby has used a pacifier since birth. I can't soothe him with my breast, and besides, it has been suggested that it reduces SIDS risk, so I don't feel bad.

We don't watch TV when the baby is awake, but I often use the computer with him in my lap, and that's probably just as detrimental if I'm honest...

And I didn't realize there were objections to bouncy seats and Johnny Jump-Ups and swings (maybe someone could share what the problem is with these?). So we sure use them.

Finally, though this only affects my husband and me thus far and we are working on changing it--our diets are horrible. I'm a vegetarian that doesn't like vegetables. We are both pretty overweight. I drink at least one soda a day, full of corn syrup, we eat fast food when we can afford it, and there is probably nothing organic in our whole house right now. I quit smoking and I quit drinking, so dammit, I feel entitled to a Snickers bar when I want one...


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## milletpuff (Jul 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Some of these I get, and I do some of them, but I don't understand having a discussion on a NFL/ AP message board on how un-NFL and un-AP you are. Obviously, no one is perfect.
> 
> ...


That's awesome that it doesn't make a difference to you. And not the norm here. It makes A LOT of difference to a lot of people if moms or dads here make different choices than the "standard" AP choices. I have found myself in tears on the regular while reading this board, feeling shamed about myself and my thoughts. About totally minor things too!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Some of these are just sad though. I don't get why someone would admit on MDC that they hit their kids, or that they are comfortable with (illegally) front facing a baby, when (I assume) they know it's MUCH less safe to do so.


I'm not into the whole crunchy/AP checklist, but I agree with you that these two things made me cringe. It's not mainstream to have a 10 month old forward facing - it's reckless.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milletpuff*
> 
> That's awesome that it doesn't make a difference to you. And not the norm here. It makes A LOT of difference to a lot of people if moms or dads here make different choices than the "standard" AP choices. I have found myself in tears on the regular while reading this board, feeling shamed about myself and my thoughts. About totally minor things too!










I've not been in tears but have been upset by people jumping down my throat for not conforming to the perfect AP standard. It ticks me off how a person can just hide behind "Well, there are other mainstream boards if you want to have views like that" instead of actually considering somebody else's parenting choices as valid, for them.

Whatever happened to live and let live? Barring any actual child abuse (And no, that does not include formula feeding no matter how you slice it.) I don't see why all the extreme judgement and holier-than-thou even has to come into play.

Why not bring more "mainstream" people in from other boards so they can be exposed to new ideas instead of kicking them to the curb for not quite making that mark.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I thought of another one.

I've been scorned because I think my breast milk tastes gross. I dread having to get it on my tongue. I was told I must have something wrong with me, health-wise, for this to be the case. Maybe if I were a bit more hardcore AP I would acquire a taste because breast milk is so magykal that everybody must love it!!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I thought of another one.
> 
> I've been scorned because I think my breast milk tastes gross. I dread having to get it on my tongue. I was told I must have something wrong with me, health-wise, for this to be the case. Maybe if I were a bit more hardcore AP I would acquire a taste because breast milk is so magykal that everybody must love it!!


wait, why would you have to get it on your tongue? hmmmmm (I don't even know what breastmilk tastes like, exactly, and I nursed past 2)


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> wait, why would you have to get it on your tongue? hmmmmm (I don't even know what breastmilk tastes like, exactly, and I nursed past 2)










Well...I guess it's not that frequent but I have tasted it, purposely at first because everyone talked about how damn delicious it was...I tasted it and thought, "Ew, that tastes gross." then looked at my son with a small shake of my head. Poor little fella thinks this tastes good. He wanted it 24/7 so I guess it must not have been all bad.

I guess I kept tasting it in hopes whatever was wrong with me would clear right up.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I do think there are different levels of "AP'ness" (I'm not wording that correctly at all, I'll try to explain.

There are some things that Mothering stands for, and is pretty unequivocal about it's stance- physical punishment is one, not using CIO is another, not circ'ing is another.

There are other things that are part of the AP continuum, but that aren't "necessary" if you get what I mean. Things like homeschooling (there is a forum for public schooling on MDC), cloth diapering (talk of sposies are ok), co-sleeping (you can sleep separately and not cio), and vaxing (there is a forum for people who choose to vax). Doing those things does NOT make you un-AP. They can exist within AP. AP is about how you relate to your kids, and treat your kids.

And then there are other things that are more NFL than AP, like eating organic and recycling. Doing those things don't make you un-AP, though they might have something to do with your NFL-ness. I don't know, because those things are barely on my radar.

And before anyone thinks that I'm all...whatever...thinking I'm better than anyone, I'm definitely not the "most AP of them all." Ds1 was circ'ed before I knew better, I spanked him (and regret it), he's happily in public school, and we'll get some vaxes.

The TOS of MDC says:

Quote:


> Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions that advocate crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations as a parenting philosophy.


Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> You may not care about those things but it is a big bone of contention around here, in general. In a recent thread formula feeding by choice was likened to child abuse.
> 
> ETA: I do think it's ill advised to forward face a ten month old...


Some people are extreme about the things that they are passionate about. It's easy on message boards to be "mean" to people and forget to care about their feelings, because you aren't looking straight at a person, kwim? It doesn't mean it's right, of course. And I think people make exaggerated comparisons to make a point. It seems to me, though, that their point is lost in the extremeness of it (like insinuating that formula feeding is abuse- that's not going to convert anyone, I don't think). As far as formula feeding goes, my feelings are "her body, her choice." I would hope that women would have enough information to make an informed decision (which I suppose would be leaning towards bf'ing as long as there is not a reason to the contrary).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *milletpuff*
> 
> That's awesome that it doesn't make a difference to you. And not the norm here. It makes A LOT of difference to a lot of people if moms or dads here make different choices than the "standard" AP choices. I have found myself in tears on the regular while reading this board, feeling shamed about myself and my thoughts. About totally minor things too!












The thing is this though. You do what you do because it feels right, yes? If someone else says it's wrong, so what? You might think about it a bit, then come to a conclusion that either you need to change what you do, or that you are comfortable with what you are doing. If you are happy with what you are doing, then it's ok that some random person online says it's awful. kwim?

I've had people tell me (on other boards) that they were worried for my first son's wellbeing because I wasn't cio and spanking. I got mad at them for it, sure (and it still bothers me now, 6 years later. I thought I was friends with one woman in particular). But I still felt good about what I was doing, yk?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I'll play

While I have nutritional yeast in a parmesan shaker, ( other thread) I also have cheapie Kroger brand parmesan in my kitchen too.

I smoked on numerous occasions in between DD being born and getting pg again.
I love to drink good beer, and more than one or two (though not while pg).
DD has totally eaten plenty of sugar and french fries.
I am not tandem nursing. I can not imagine it, and Im just not going to do it.
We have plastic toys. And even ones that light up and make noise.
DD used a paci for the first 6 months.
We watch movies, and so does she.
We do buy a lot of organic food, but we also have a ton of HFCS filled condiments to pour all over our food (not dds, just ours)


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## alittlesandy (Jan 20, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> The TOS of MDC says:
> 
> ...


I'm glad you posted this because I haven't read it (my bad) and I didn't realize it was this specific.

Ok, really? So MDC is not interested in hosting discussions about elective c-sections or formula feeding?

What about the fact that I had an emergency c-section because of breech and may have to choose an elective c-section with my second baby? My "choices" are to drive 2 hours for a VBAC, have an elective c-section, or have an unattended UC HBAC. What if I want to discuss the benefits vs. drawbacks of an elective c-section?

My best friend had breast cancer and gave birth due to the miracle of IVF and a donated egg, but was not able to breastfeed. She cannot discuss her formula options here? What about formula use due to adoption and fostering?

I can't help but play devil's advocate.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alittlesandy*
> 
> What about formula use due to adoption and fostering?


I have participated in a few formula-friendly threads. I think the board has relaxed considerably on this issue.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

The UA says "advocate", not that you cant discuss it at all. You can talk about why you are electing for a csection, but I think the UA is really to keep the comments such has , "Well, I had a section with all three of mine, and their heads are all perfect." Same with FF, plenty of mamas in Life with a Babe have asked for formula advice and its okay. Its really to keep people from coming here to advocate these practices, not to keep us from discussing them. For example, there a plenty of places that advocate circ, so MDC isnt going to allow people to come here and post a thread all about how circ is the best thing in the world and everyone should get their kid cut. Its not to keep you from asking why/why not to do something. As much as so many people seem to be up in arms about how MDC is "so crunchy" and how people have made them feel guilty, please remember that breastfeeding moms, NCB moms, and AP moms are all still the minority in the united states. Its NICE to have a place that doesnt advocate csections and formula. There are TONS of places that do, including most doctors offices.


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

I'll play!

We recently got a playpen and I LOVE it. I can do the dishes in peace without a baby on my back reaching for the knife rack or on the floor eating the dog food.

I sometimes have my nanny work when I have the day off just so that I can get a full day of me time.

I do timeouts, McD play places, infant bucket in the cart/resturaunt, stroller (a double even!), and way too much TV for everyone.

I have a bottle of formula in the pantry just in case I can't pump enough one day, and everyone who cares for my child knows i prefer that over hunger crying.

My DD1 eats the normal kid diet of everything brown, carbo loaded, and covered in cheese. She doesn't eat greens. I don't really care. She is happy. I'm happy. On the plus side she loves fruit and hates candy, so at least I'm on the mid ground health wise.

I am still an AP parent, just not a perfect one.







. Thanks all for sharing!


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I think this thread has been great! If nothing else it's nice to know I'm not alone!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am by principal an APer and will always be an APer. but life has not allowed me to be the APer i would have liked to be. things i do or had to do was not out of choice. though i think i am more a NFL and CL parent with hairy legs but shaved underarms.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I thought of another one.
> 
> I've been scorned because I think my breast milk tastes gross. I dread having to get it on my tongue. I was told I must have something wrong with me, health-wise, for this to be the case. Maybe if I were a bit more hardcore AP I would acquire a taste because breast milk is so magykal that everybody must love it!!










Everytime I read about someone making ice cream out of thier breast milk, I gag and PRAY theirs tastes way better then mine does.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

While I use vinegar to clean most of the time...that's for light cleaning. When I want something REALLY CLEAN I break out the bleach. The toilet isn't considered "clean" unless it's had caustic blue stuff swirled in it.

I turned my oldest FF at 16mo. It made for calmer car trips...and there is no way to RF someone behind DH. Poor man would be driving with the wheel in his chest otherwise.

Our TV lives in the closet...but I watch stuff on the computer all the time. DS1 loves things like Home Improvement (that old sitcom) and cartoons.

We can't afford organic (we were spending $1200/month on 2.5 people...)

My son is eating Ritz Crackers RIGHT NOW!


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I am not a perfect ap/NFL mom, but mdc is where I go to be inspired and learn better ways. And yes, people get passionate because they research and see all the studies pointing out the benefits of ap/NFL. I don't think we should feel bad about ourselves but realize everyone has different circumstances and priorities.

I just stopped using my divacup. I literally can't handle it right now, when baby cries for me in the bathroom. It takes too much concentration to not make a mess, ugh. (and I can't stand pads, cloth or otherwise--again, we are all different) Real life intervenes for now. But later wasted resources and money might seem more real life to me. It just depends.( But I wouldn't come to mdc to advocate no one use a cup)

I think mommy guilt is a feminist issue but that doesn't mean mdc should let go of its values. I was once a newbie and learned and changed so much bc of this site. I will be forever grateful, even if some others are more hardcore than I, or whatever. It's not about a contest, it's about access to information you didn't even know you were missing out on, and being able to discuss your life without people jumping on you for being odd or downright offensive just bc of say cosleeping. I was run off the first board I frequented just bc I shared about (not preachy) my natural birth and babywearing. People said horrible things about me and my baby! No one ever did that to me here. Conscious parenting and living is appreciated, and I like that. But I think we should be gentle with each other, without letting go of some general values. I think it's like, when you know better, you do better-- except when you are buried by parenting/ life and then you get the least offensive fast food and look towards tomorrow, lol. It's about baby steps. I am still effecting changes. And sometimes I grab a ziplock bag (yes we use them! Not really for food so much as trash in odd situations and for keeping games and stuff neat) when I can't grab the wet bag, lol.

But a ten month old forward facing is nothing to joke about or somehow validate. Please look up internal decapitation.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I agree with this. Why are so many people feeling such a need to get these things out in a public way on a NFL forum? It seems wierd. I can agree that I am not 100% where I would like to be as a mom or family, but I come here for support to strive in that direction.

So odd to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Some of these I get, and I do some of them, but I don't understand having a discussion on a NFL/ AP message board on how un-NFL and un-AP you are. Obviously, no one is perfect.
> 
> ...


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Can't even read the forward facing babies (it's not crunchy to keep your child rear facing as long as possible, it's SAFE)

We own lots of plastic toys.

I fed my still nursing, not growing toddler Formula. And weaned him to a bottle at 2. And did forcible night weaning. And left him to cry to sleep at 2 1/2.

We did BLW - and jars, because sometimes jars are easier.

We don't eat Organic unless it's on sale for less than non-organic.

I love it when I get some time away from my kids - babysitters are awesome.

I would desperately love it if my 3 month old would take a bottle.

I don't travel with cloth and think those who do are a touch crazy. (Did it once, never again!)


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I feel like mothering is the best place to come for NFP/AP/GD info sharing and I would hate if it became more mainstream to please or appease the more mainstream moms. That's not the purpose of MDC IMO.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Because telling the truth has set me free. Sorry if that confuses you. BUt I didnt start THIS thread as popularity contest. I did it to come clean that I dont fit in here, nor do I fit in on mainstream boards. I dont fit in anywhere. Im a giant hodgepodge of different parenting styles, and I wanted to FINALLY be able to say it here. I have built up the courage to do so, and was creating a small space for other parents to do the same. I have learned alot from this community, and am ever grateful for it. But it also ticks me off that I might not belong here just because I dont conform to ALLL AP/NFL practises. So where should I go? Should I start my own forum? WOOPS, that would require me to spend even MORE time at the computer. Not very AP.

Im not singling you out, dauphinette. Your post just allowed me to answer the question that several posters have asked. The point of THIS THREAD was to help other parents, like myself, who dont feel good enough for this forum. I posted in nightime parenting once, back when I first found this place, and was basically told I was not being helpful for making suggestions that DIDNT include co sleeping with an 18month old attached to my breast. Guess that left a nastier taste in my mouth then I realized.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I agree with this. Why are so many people feeling such a need to get these things out in a public way on a NFL forum? It seems wierd. I can agree that I am not 100% where I would like to be as a mom or family, but I come here for support to strive in that direction.
> 
> So odd to me.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I just dont understand what there is to prove and why here?

And I also don't understand how you could not know that you are in the majority? I actually wish more moms on MDC were crunchier/more hardcore about stuff, I find there are a lot more mainstreamers here than crazy crunchy mamas.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Because telling the truth has set me free. Sorry if that confuses you. BUt I didnt start THIS thread as popularity contest. I did it to come clean that I dont fit in here, nor do I fit in on mainstream boards. I dont fit in anywhere. Im a giant hodgepodge of different parenting styles, and I wanted to FINALLY be able to say it here. I have built up the courage to do so, and was creating a small space for other parents to do the same. I have learned alot from this community, and am ever grateful for it. But it also ticks me off that I might not belong here just because I dont conform to ALLL AP/NFL practises. So where should I go? Should I start my own forum? WOOPS, that would require me to spend even MORE time at the computer. Not very AP.
> 
> Im not singling you out, dauphinette. Your post just allowed me to answer the question that several posters have asked. The point of THIS THREAD was to help other parents, like myself, who dont feel good enough for this forum. I posted in nightime parenting once, back when I first found this place, and was basically told I was not being helpful for making suggestions that DIDNT include co sleeping with an 18month old attached to my breast. Guess that left a nastier taste in my mouth then I realized.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Okay... this may end up being long... because there are lot of thoughts tumbling around in my head on this.

MDC wants a bigger internet prescence... well... if they want that so badly that they threw out their magazine and are now launching ALL efforts into web prescence, such as facebook, twitter, etc...

Then sorry, yes ALL AP/NFL is not going to be able to bring enough traffic to the site... you will get some more mainstream... you will get a good number of middle roaders, like myself, and others who were brave enough to post here.

If Mothering wants to continue making money and to thrive... and now that they are only a web prescence... I think they are going to have to be a bit more welcoming. I'm not saying to advocate CIO or hitting, whatever...

BUT! As someone else mentioned... to not condone c-section talk or formula feeding... well, it's going to ostracize a lot of Mom's... and a lot of potential members that could offer A LOT to other discussions here. We are all just trying to do the best we can as Moms.

I have seen the comments on how formula feeding is akin to child abuse. Let me tell you how awesome those comments are to someone like myself (and I know I'm not alone)... who is very pro-breastfeeding, and BF my DD as long as I could (until my milk dried up when I got pregnant)... but faced some very scary events... I got pre-eclampsia, almost died, had to have an emergency c-section, my baby almost died and could not breath on his own for weeks.... so he could not be put to the breast for weeks. I pumped round the clock... nothing like setting your alarm every 2.5 hours to pump through the night while your small babe was in an isolette at the NICU...

I did this until he was 3 months old... until something had to give. I'm a single Mom, with not the most supportive parents. I could not sustain getting up every 2 hours to feed and then pump my baby... I HAD to sleep. I also have fibromyalgia which was in a horrible flare up due to PTSD from the pre-e wonderfulness, and NO sleep, the stress of NICU, etc...

When I mentioned I just could not keep up with this pumping schedule anymore and felt I had to switch to formula to keep my sanity... did I get encouragment? Uh no... I got "talk to the LC, do this and this and this..." I DID all of that... I mean really... advocating for a Mom not to sleep at all... I had reached a point where I was unable to fully take care of myself and my 2 kids because I was so sleep deprived. I was seriously losing my mind.

It just can't be so extreme. If someone has made a non-AP/NFL decision that is right for THEIR family... they shouldn't get flamed. The fact that the person is on Mothering at all, I think speaks volumes that they obviously CARE about being a Mom and trying to do the best they can.

But the constant judging and holier than thou... and the extreme BS of equating certain choices to child abuse is NOT helpful... and MDC will one day cease to exist because there are just too many peopele with too many different circumstances to be all perfect all the time.

If MDC hasn't noticed... activity has CRASHED here. It used to be hard to keep up with the few boards I frequent... now I'm BORED because there has been no new content in days. It's sad.

Also... most of us "middle" types aren't comfortable on a full out mainstream board... For myself this is the case. I've tried a few out... MDC has always felt more like home to me... it just sadly has also felt to scornful at times too.

Being the largest mothering board on the internet... I think there can be a middle ground found that advocates AP/NFL... but also realizes we are all HUMAN and need support in all our mothering journeys. If MDC wants to regain activity and not wither and die off... I really think they have no choice but to consider this.

/end soap box rant.

*hugs* Thank you Gina for starting this thread... I think it will end up being very eye-opening.

I also agree with another PP... AP isn't being all crunchy/extreme... it's Listening and doing what is BEST for your babe. I had to FF my son in order to be a more loving and responsive Mom. That doesn't make me non-AP. I do my best with the cards I have.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Then that settles it, I guess. I should go to a more mainstream board, because my mainstreaminess is polluting the NFL/APness that is this forum. 

Atleast I found Mother milk tonic and other BFing support here when I needed it. Maybe I will need it again someday. Or I will just FB the AWSOME mamas that I have come to befriend and LUUUUUV through this community.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Oh and for my lovely list...

I have a crib and stopped room-sharing with both kids around 5-ish months.

I FF my son. (see above rant as to why)

I can't afford to buy organic anything for DD and I.

I buy jarred baby food (which I have also seen equated to child abuse... so sorry I only have 24 hours in a day and have to work full time to support my kids) ~ This I do try to buy the organic ones.

I use sposies... again, I only have 24 hours in a day.

I don't wear son much. He loves the backpack carrier, but HATES the sling... the carrier KILLS my back. :-( I am thankful to have a stroller for long outings, or else I would not be able to go as it now really HURTS me to carry my son more than 10 minutes. (yay fibro)

Most days I would not make it to bedtime if it weren't for Caillou.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Then that settles it, I guess. I should go to a more mainstream board, because my mainstreaminess is polluting the NFL/APness that is this forum.
> 
> Atleast I found Mother milk tonic and other BFing support here when I needed it. Maybe I will need it again someday. Or I will just FB the AWSOME mamas that I have come to befriend and LUUUUUV through this community.


If you go you have to tell me where! LOL I have yet to find a place I fit too. Love you Gina! *hugs*


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> Okay... this may end up being long... because there are lot of thoughts tumbling around in my head on this.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. You said it quite well.

Actually, my April 09 DDC had a whole thread on our FB group about "things that make you not fit in on MDC" and we BONDED SO MUCH over that discussion because we figured out "OMG I'm NOT a friendless weirdo"

For myself, it's hard to fit in anywhere (like Charlie's Angel commented) because I'm not totally crunchy but crunchy enough that mainstream parents don't want to be friends with me. I have actually LOST FRIENDS over my crunchy side. There is nowhere for us.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> Thank you for this. You said it quite well.
> 
> ...


I have lost friends over my "crunchy" side too (co-slept at all, even though I didn't for long) and breastfeeding my DD past 6 months. Yeah. lol

It's hard being in the middle.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Hmmmmmm, PM had an AWSOME idea. Its sounding like, better and better the more I think about it.

I love you, PM. And Kas, and Ldavis, and Rightkindofme, and every other MDC mama I have "met" in this forum that has shown me nothing but love, understanding, commiseration (that one helps the most, because lets face it, misery loves company) and support. You are my soulmates, and will forever be in my heart as the TRUE MDC family that I will always cherish!


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> Okay... this may end up being long... because there are lot of thoughts tumbling around in my head on this.
> 
> ...


I truely do not relate to the desire to want to morph a NFL board to a more mainstream board to make more mainstream moms comfortable to be here, then it's just any other board and that is not what makes MDC special.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

It seems you all have found plenty of middle of the road support here....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Hmmmmmm, PM had an AWSOME idea. Its sounding like, better and better the more I think about it.
> 
> I love you, PM. And Kas, and Ldavis, and Rightkindofme, and every other MDC mama I have "met" in this forum that has shown me nothing but love, understanding, commiseration (that one helps the most, because lets face it, misery loves company) and support. You are my soulmates, and will forever be in my heart as the TRUE MDC family that I will always cherish!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> It seems you all have found plenty of middle of the road support here....


But we've had to do it undercover...by PM or on Facebook. We've had to reach out in secret hope that they're "like us" and won't freak out and block us. It took me over a year to decide to be friends with Gina. Even then I was nervous as hell to approach her and see if we held the same ideals (and had the same "faults")


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Hmmmmmm, PM had an AWSOME idea. Its sounding like, better and better the more I think about it.
> 
> I love you, PM. And Kas, and Ldavis, and Rightkindofme, and every other MDC mama I have "met" in this forum that has shown me nothing but love, understanding, commiseration (that one helps the most, because lets face it, misery loves company) and support. You are my soulmates, and will forever be in my heart as the TRUE MDC family that I will always cherish!


*aww you made me tear up at this CA.*..I haven't posted in this thread yet because I haven't been on the computer until this morning but I will do my list now, just for you girl because I wasn't even going to do this!

Ok, while enjoying the turbulent ride that is severe depression, I have let DD watch WAY WAY more tv than I ever wanted to. It's life, whatever.

DD gets motrin when she has a tooth ache. I gave up on Hylands a while ago.

DD eats sugar stuff....ice cream, cake whatever, if I am eating it she can have a niblble.

I will probably never use cloth diapers and I am content with her in pampers.

I will probably send her to public school.

I am only breastfeeding this long because she loves it and if I had my way I would have weaned her a while ago but I don't have the heart to.

I think baby wearing a toddler who would rather be on the ground is stooopid. DD stopped getting worn about the time she started really walking around and now only on a rare occasion does she go into the backpack..

We use a stroller and it's awesome not having 30 lbs of sweaty kid strapped to my back when it's 90 degrees out.

I use regular cleaning products, lots of paper towels and disposable pads for myself. We work on composting but we are lazy about it and if I could afford it I would have a big gas guzzling pick up truck because it would be highly useful to our family!

Dauphitte, have you seen some of the UC threads on here? I find it amusing you think MDC isn't crunchy enough at this point...


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

And really, FOUR or FIVE is plenty?

Out of...............How many members does MDC have? 640,000 or some such number. ALOT. I have a couple of posters in my followed members that have LEFT MDC. They are wonderful mothers, were seeking help, got burned alive from this community, and are GONE. I miss them. I wanted to help them. But I only have MDC as a means to reach out to them. And if they arent logging on, well.........

And Im pretty sure I never said I wanted MDC to be mainstream (and neither did anyone else). I joined because it WASNT mainsteam. I have always thought outside the box and not conformed to stand in line with the rest of the trends (unless of course your talking about fashion. I love me some trendy new outfits. Oooops, thats prolly another strike against me)


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> But we've had to do it undercover...by PM or on Facebook. We've had to reach out in secret hope that they're "like us" and won't freak out and block us. It took me over a year to decide to be friends with Gina. Even then I was nervous as hell to approach her and see if we held the same ideals (and had the same "faults")


THIS! Totally this. In fact I didn't know you were middle until this thread, AFWife. lol *hugs*


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have learned a lot from MDC about AP...it truly has shaped how I parent but there is a tipping point and I came to that point and now I am backing off a little bit. I used to be so much more militant than I am now...Now I am just trying to be a good mom and not screw up DD too much with my own issues.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I've been here a looong time - pre-crash, even - and I've never felt like I shouldn't be here because I don't do enough crunchy stuff. I think maybe people feel more judged than they really are? I guess I think people who are judging others often do that because they feel insecure about their own choices, and they feel more secure if they can tell themselves that they're doing it right and other people are wrong. I just don't see much of that here, though, or maybe I don't pay it much mind. When it comes up I've always been pretty open about my choices to have a hospital birth, use disposable diapers, Western biomedicine, childcare , pacifiers, network TV, fast food, and so on... but I don't generally feel the need to bring stuff up out of context here.

On the other hand, Mothering isn't the be-all and end-all of my internet world. Its function is to be a place to discuss AP/NFL, and while sometimes other stuff comes up (news, baby names, all of TAO), I've never really thought of it as a place to talk about stuff that's directly opposed to AP/NFL. That would be like, say, going to a homeschooling board and wanting to talk about your kid's school, or vice versa. There's nothing wrong with either choice - school or homescholl - but the place seems wrong to me. That's not saying people should hide things - if someone on a homeschool board is asked how many kids she has, for example, she might say, 'Two, but only one is homeschooled' and that would be the end of it, unless she followed up with 'and I'm having trouble deciding whether I want to homeschool them both next year' or something.

So if I want to talk about other stuff, I go elsewhere, not because I feel judged about it here but because this isn't a board for that. When I want to talk about more AP/NFL stuff, I come here. It's worked well for me...


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> .
> 
> So if I want to talk about other stuff, I go elsewhere, not because I feel judged about it here but because this isn't a board for that. When I want to talk about more AP/NFL stuff, I come here. It's worked well for me...


This. exactly. There are plenty of places to go to talk about everything else I like, and all the nonAP stuff that I do. But, Mothering is really it for having a place to go to discuss AP issues. If I have a problem breastfeeding my kid, I can ask questions here without the immediate response being "Oh, just switch to forumla , you had a good run bfing." I dont want people to advocate formula unless the situation is necessary.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I haven't read the responses - I think most of mine are NFL. I think of most AP stuff as baby stuff and my kiddo is 6 now.

I love my Ped.

Mac and cheese is my friend.

I think a bouncy seat is a NECESSITY.

I don't deny my child Spider Man and other licensed characters.

I lovingly hold my great-niece and feed her a bottle.

I don't cut off my mainstream friends. They are good people and fabulous parents.

I have no problem telling my kiddo to go back to his own bed, me and DH are having an adult conversation.

I'm sure I could go on and on...


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I truely do not relate to the desire to want to morph a NFL board to a more mainstream board to make more mainstream moms comfortable to be here, then it's just any other board and that is not what makes MDC special.


What is it you want MDC to be then? A place for anybody that doesn't adhere completely to AP/NFL beliefs to be ostracized and excluded? Isn't that one of the main complaints of MDC moms in regards to mainstream boards? That we're made to feel like freaks for not being mainstream enough? Well by all means let's not strive to be better than other messageboards across the interweb, we'll just be the flip side of that nasty, dirty coin.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

My kids are fully vaxed.

They go to public school.

I work full time so they both started being watched by a sitter at 6 weeks.

They both had to be supplemented with formula.

We go to McDonald's sometimes.

We used disposable diapers.

We watch tv and play video games.

I had 2 hospital births attended by an ob.

My kids have had many rounds of antibiotics, my oldest was on asthma meds for a long time.

I drive an SUV.

I refuse to use family cloth or mama cloth or whatever all those cloth things that are so popular on here. Give me tampons and toilet paper!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Everyone just tries to be the best parents they can be...I am pretty crunchy but we watch tv and we CD full time b/c of the $$$ not really the environment.

I have no issue with people having a rant thread on why they aren't "AP" enough but non of these things seem non-AP to me. Attachment Parenting has nothing to do with recycling....

I do feel compelled to say that hitting a child, FF a 10 m/o (!!!), and being pro-circ don't make you not "AP". I'm not going to say what I feel they are b/c I don't need to get flamed...

Especially circ. A lot of people can be AP parents and have a circ'ed child. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that to a child and I am completely against it but you aren't crunchy for having an intact child. Plenty of mainstream parents have intact children...can't we leave babie's genitals out of it?


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Everyone just tries to be the best parents they can be...I am pretty crunchy but we watch tv and we CD full time b/c of the $$$ not really the environment.
> 
> ...


And there is an interesting point.... I really feel this is a personal decision to the person. This is such a flame war discussion... and so many strong opinions on BOTH sides.

Just because a person reads ALL the research presented on BOTH sides and comes to a different decision than you... does not make them a child abuser or a non-AP, or even a bad parent.

*shrugs* Just my not so humble opinion on that whole can of worms....


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I just want to go on the record as stating I am NOT pro circ.

Thank you. Please continue.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Wow. This is apparently a really touchy topic. I was happy this thread was started and jumped right in, but it seems like people are taking it all way too seriously and getting offended. When I joined MDC, all my friends were mainstream and I was so thrilled to find a place where there were other crunchy mamas. There is no way I'm ever going to homeschool, unschool, eat my placenta, UC, or breastfeed past three, but the fact that those are encouraged and supported on these boards never left me feeling like I wasn't crunchy enough or like I didn't belong here. I take what I like, and leave the rest. I don't let a stranger on the internet convince me I'm a bad mom for falling off the cloth diaper wagon, not breastfeeding long enough, or putting my kid in timeout. I'm probably somewhere in the middle as far as how crunchy I am and maybe more mainstream compared to other MDC mamas, but I am still really disappointed that MDC is turning as mainstream as it is.

This is the one and only place I come to be supported in any of my AP/NFL decisions and I'd like that to continue. I don't want to come here and be told to formula feed my kid or let him cry it out. If I go that route, fine--I know I'm not a terrible mother, but I have always come here to be encouraged to try to do the AP/NFL thing, even if I determine I can't do it or it isn't best for our family. I get that a lot of the backlash is from people who have been spanked over the years for not doing things "right" and I have in fact been spanked myself, but that isn't who MDC is anymore. I think there is plenty of space for balanced conversation and a lot fewer spankings while still encouraging each other in whatever NFL/AP choices we have made. I never go to the homeschool board because I'm not pro-homeschooling. I don't want to steer anyone else away from it though and I am seeing a lot more posts trying to steer people towards mainstream. Let this board continue to be a place where NFL/AP and eating your placenta is supported.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Yesterday, my kids wanted Little Debbie Oatmeal cream pies (lol, creampies







) with whipped cream on top. CANNED whipped cream. And I LET them! For BREAKFAST.

We don't eat organic produce. Simply cannot afford them. But we do mostly eat fresh (except for the oatmeal cream pie extravagance LOL)

I yell. I scream. I curse.

My kids were born in a hospital (gasp), DD1 was induced (double gasp), and I had an epidural with DD1 as well (holy crap!). And get this...I don't care! I don't give two figs about how my children came into the world. So there!

Both girls had pacifiers, although both gave them up on their own around 6 months.

DD1 self-weaned at 3.5 years, and DD2 self-weaned at 4 years, but when I was thinning their baby food...I used formula to thin it, not breastmilk. You know, since I had the sample can and pumping never worked for me. OMG, that is the biggest confession EVER, for me.

DD1 started baby cereal at 4 months. The hospital lactation consultant told me to. My period came back and my supply dropped. I know better now. Ah, well...

DD2's first table food was pork and sauerkraut LOL. Not really non-AP, but I thought it was funny. She was about 11.5 months old.

The kids watch TV. Pretty much whenever they want to. Meh.

Homeschooling sounds like hell to me.

My kids are punished, rewarded, and praised.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> I've been here a looong time - pre-crash, even - and I've never felt like I shouldn't be here because I don't do enough crunchy stuff. *I think maybe people feel more judged than they really are?* I guess I think people who are judging others often do that because they feel insecure about their own choices, and they feel more secure if they can tell themselves that they're doing it right and other people are wrong. I just don't see much of that here, though, or maybe I don't pay it much mind. When it comes up I've always been pretty open about my choices to have a hospital birth, use disposable diapers, Western biomedicine, childcare , pacifiers, network TV, fast food, and so on... but I don't generally feel the need to bring stuff up out of context here.


I've seen many a thread where people will talk about unfriending people for some things...or entire threads devoted to making fun of some of the decisions we've listed. So no, I think that MDC can be quite catty.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> I've seen many a thread where people will talk about unfriending people for some things...or entire threads devoted to making fun of some of the decisions we've listed. So no, I think that MDC can be quite catty.


I agree.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I support everyone's right to eat their placenta, just don't go waving your placenta in my face all "i'm gonna eat this, watch me do it!!" and we are good...

MDC can be super catty, pretending it is never like that is just willfully turning a blind eye to some of the bs around here. That doesn't negate that there is some really wonderful advice given here.


----------



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I support everyone's right to eat their placenta, just don't go waving your placenta in my face all "i'm gonna eat this, watch me do it!!" and we are good...
> 
> MDC can be super catty, pretending it is never like that is just willfully turning a blind eye to some of the bs around here. That doesn't negate that there is some really wonderful advice given here.


I will admit to posting photos of my placenta encapsulation on Facebook...but I just wanted to gross out my college buddies (I had to hear detailed stories of their sex lives and bodily functions...I finally got to win)


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> I will admit to posting photos of my placenta encapsulation on Facebook...but I just wanted to gross out my college buddies (I had to hear detailed stories of their sex lives and bodily functions...I finally got to win)


pictures I can handle...those are easy to distance yourself from..Raw placenta is just sooo....jiggly looking though...ugh


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Forgot to mention I tell my kids "good Job". ALOT.


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## Snowflake777 (Jan 6, 2011)

Half the stuff listed here doesn't strike me as un-AP at all. It sounds like some misinformed, straw-man version of what mainstream-ers think AP is.

Part of being AP is having balance in your life. Not being superwoman doesn't cancel your AP-ness.


----------



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Forgot to mention I tell my kids "good Job". ALOT.


Us too!!!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> I've seen many a thread where people will talk about unfriending people for some things...or entire threads devoted to making fun of some of the decisions we've listed. So no, I think that MDC can be quite catty.


I guess I don't read those forums, then, maybe? I don't read a lot of little kid stuff anymore... I dunno, the few times I've seen something like that it always seems like most people post and say how silly it is to unfriend someone because she gives her toddler McD's fries or whatever. If we're talking about something like spanking, or shaming, or really seriously neglectful parenting like giving a 3 month old bottles of kool-aid... yeah, I could see that. But other stuff, not so much. And I guess I don't get the point of a thread to list the non AP/NPL stuff people do - it almost feels like people are trying to rebel against.... something. AP/NPL? Are people looking for high-5s or something for refusing to be AP/NFL in certain areas? I find myself nonplussed...


----------



## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Great thread!
I tried buying organic for a while but just can't afford it, so we now east 90 % non organic.

I use disposable nappies at night and sometimes non-Eco ones.

I buy Bleach occasionally, and have non-eco cleaning liquid.

I yell sometimes though I never intend to and am not proud of it!

DS eats sugar, dairy, meat and all sorts of things I didn't want him to mainly b/c his dad and grandparents don't share my views on food. And I've relaxed about it too!
Other than that I'm pretty AP - but not because of trying to live up to a 'label', just b/c that's how things evolved for us as a family.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> I will admit to posting photos of my placenta encapsulation on Facebook...but I just wanted to gross out my college buddies (I had to hear detailed stories of their sex lives and bodily functions...I finally got to win)


pictures I can handle...those are easy to distance yourself from..Raw placenta is just sooo....jiggly looking though...ugh


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## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

to add to my earlier list:

I drive a hummer with leather seats and I love it

i have used time outs, and I have gotten up from trying to put little man to sleep to let him cry and get tired for 5-10 minutes while I collect myself

we own a lot of battery operated toys (which I hate but if I threw them out he would have very few toys)

This is not an anti ap thing but we also eat lots of soy milk and other soy products!


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


What about the very recent thread that compared formula feeding to child abuse? Strollers and "bucket seats" have been deemed abusive more times than I care to count. It seems if you're not carrying your children everywhere you're looked down on as some sort of lazy schlub who just refuses to go that extra mile. Don't even get me started on ultrasounds..

I have actually noticed a shift around MDC lately toward being more inclusive and I don't think anything has been lost in it. There are still A LOT of moms that are hardcore AP/NFL and I guess I look at it as a learning experience for those who have never been exposed to such ideas.

When I came here back in 2006 the most crunchy thing I did was breastfeed. I was 20 years old and a new mom...I was very pro circ and I thought I would be a spanker and made an ass out of myself over it several times..but here I am, having my fourth baby who will be left in tact...because of MDC, soley. I never thought to question my doctors on vaccinating and now find myself somewhere in the middle on that issue. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you don't allow people like me in, or the old naive me, than what good are we really doing? Can't we support all mothers? Do you (the collective) really think that if you come here asking for advice and someone says "Just switch to formula" you're going to have no choice but to do so? There will be plenty of breastfeeding advice and beyond that I don't think anybody is saying MDC has to advocate for formula, but maybe just be more inclusive to those who chose it for whatever reason.

I have actually loved my DDC as everybody there is very supportive of everybody else. It's been a great place for open sharing and support. A safe place to land, so to speak.

I'll stop rambling now as my son just came up to show me that he made a smore out of legos...I mean, come on...if that's not a genius.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mommy212*
> 
> to add to my earlier list:
> 
> ...


Why? How can you love spending that much money on gas? 10 miles a gallon for what? What do you do that requires you to drive a vehicle that gets such low gas mileage and is polluting the environment that much?

ETA: Ive driven vehicles with low gas mileage before, but it was because they were old and all I could afford. I just cant imagine spend tens of thousands of dollars on a car that had terrible gas mileage.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

I think we can support all mothers while still encouraging AP/NFL choices. There are plenty of mainstream boards that will support and encourage mothers to make mainstream choices. Why can't MDC continue to be a board that supports and encourages AP/NFL? I circ'd my son, but also know I won't ever do it again...also thanks solely to MDC. The more mainstream MDC becomes, the less likely new members are going to come on here and be influenced to consider AP/NFL. MDC has greatly influenced my parenting choices, for the better, and also supported choices I had already made. Like I said before, I've gotten plenty of spankings here and I know other people have too, and maybe that is why people find this topic so touchy, but I really do think MDC has changed and I don't see as many harsh comments like "your baby is going to turn purple if you formula feed". I think that is fantastic and a welcome change, but I don't think being inclusive and supportive means MDC should abandon its roots as a place where members collectively believe in AP/NFL and encourage those practices. A lot of people are refusing to put on their big girl undies an accept that nobody is going to pat them on the back here for having an epidural or formula feeding. So what? You know that doesn't make you a bad mom, and if it makes you feel like one, go to one of the 10000 other boards that will tell you an epi is the best thing you'll ever do.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is if you don't allow people like me in, or the old naive me, than what good are we really doing? Can't we support all mothers? Do you (the collective) really think that if you come here asking for advice and someone says "Just switch to formula" you're going to have no choice but to do so?


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


That is a perfect example of the kind of spankings that have people all hysterical on these boards about MDC not being inclusive. This thread was meant to be a light hearted "we're not all perfect" place to share, not a place to get criticized.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't recall seeing a thread saying formula feeding was child abuse. I guess people can say whatever they want, but I find it hard to belueve that someone would say that here and get a lot of support for it.

I do recall a thread about facebook in which the OP was defriending someone whose statuses were all complaints about stuff, and I think she mentioned the person complaining about how hard CIO was... but I didn't read it as unfriending her because she was too mainstream, but because she complained a lot. I actually hid someone's statuses on my facebook because most of her statuses were complaints about how tough homeschooling her kids was, and I just got tired of reading all that whining. It wasn' about homeschooling - I homeschool - it was about the whining...


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I guess I just dont understand why someone would feel the need to brag about how much they are using up natural resources for no particular reason other than they "love" it.

And to be fair, this thread was started in direct response of the "you might NOT be a mainstream parent if....," where things that people were saying over there were being criticized, even though it was stated over and over again that the thread was started for fun.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> And to be fair, this thread was started in direct response of the "you might NOT be a mainstream parent if....," where things that people were saying over there were being criticized, even though it was stated over and over again that the thread was started for fun.


I agree...and I don't think people should have gotten so hysterical over "you might not be a mainstream parent if...your kids don't understand why their friends can't come over until 3pm". I will never ever in a billion years homeschool, but it doesn't offend me that someone says homeschooling isn't mainstream. It isn't. And if that person thinks they're better than me, (which I didn't sense at all from that post), I don't care. I am having a really hard time understanding why so many other people care and take everything as such an attack on them if they don't do the same thing.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

AH HA! So you claim that the other thread was started for fun, and I do as well. But because its the opposite, and not inline with the crunchier way of thinking, its really just mocking? Double standard? (please understand I am only saying this in a "healthy debate" sort of way)

And maybe that other poster loves her hummer the same way someone else would love thier corvette. Some car enthusiasts could care less about gas prices and carbon emmissions. just sayin.


----------



## DirtyHippyMama (Apr 29, 2007)

I have not been too much more than a lurker here, but I have found some great support in the DDCs and GD forum. GD is the most difficult aspect of AP for me, but I firmly believe in it, and I am thankful that the GD forum is here for me to be able to read or ask a question about something that I'm finding especially challenging. Same thing for homeschooling -- I don't have a lot of local support for that. There was only one response I remember feeling taken aback and ashamed/wrist-slapped because of. I tend to stay out of heated debates, even if it's about something I am passionate about.

I am a huge fan of Dr. Sears' saying: "Do what works for *your family*."

I think this thread is great. It is a way for those of us that feel slightly out of place/less than perfect here to feel more encouraged that we are "normal." My crunchiness has evolved over the years, maybe in part thanks to MDC. So, on that note:

- I have MAJOR issues with Alfie Kohn. I simply don't think following him to a tee is realistic, and I have purposely distanced myself from that guilt-trip.

- I yell and cuss.

- We eat a LOT of fast food, when we can afford it (and sometimes when we can't).

- We go through a lot of ibuprofen around here. I use it to treat teething, among other things, and DH and I go through a 500ct bottle about every 3 months.

- We also use plenty of other conventional medications (sometimes after trying alternative treatments, sometimes as a first choice, depending on the ailment).

- I am absolutely not opposed to the use of Artificial Baby Containers, as long as the baby is happy with it. I have been...errr...blessed...with high-need babies and if I can get 5 minutes out of the Jump-a-roo, I am thankful.

- I use the TV as a babysitter sometimes.

- I use paper towels for greasy/oily messes, raw meat juice messes, and sometimes just "regular" messes. And we use toilet paper.

- We use disposable pull-ups because toddler poop is disgusting and makes the whole diaper load harder to get clean.

- I use bleach for mildew (and "stripping" diapers), and caustic blue stuff in our toilets.

- We have 2 vehicles, both of which get about 14-17mpg.

- I "gave up" on breastfeeding before 1 year with my first 3 children. I regret it, but am learning not to feel guilty about it anymore.

- I had 3 hospital births (babies # 2, 3, & 4).

I could go on, but I won't -- I think I have gone on long enough!







Thanks for this thread; it feels like I have a giant weight off my shoulders!


----------



## ~Ryleigh's Mommy~ (Jun 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *motherhendoula*
> 
> Ooooh - i like this thread!
> 
> ...


Whoa whoa whoa.

That has NOTHING to do with being AP or natural.

It is highly illegal and life threatening to your child.

I'm just gonna stop right there.


----------



## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

I replied to this, then bumped the button on the surge strip. Probably that was for the best.

Synopsis!

I try not to buy into the One Right Way parenting approach. Different things will work for all of us. I know I discipline and praise more than many folks here. It works for my kids and my family. It meets the needs my kids have- in that it's as much AP as any other option. Discussing why we shouldn't hit our little brother over the head with the toy just doesn't work here. My kid looks at me as though he's won and wanders off grinning only to do the Same Darn Thing 15 seconds later. Telling him to sit down right where he is for a time out- and then (gasp!) making him hand the toy he was trying to steal and use as a weapon over to his victim? That works. It works really well for him. I will not be made to feel guilty about how I handle those moments or made out to be painted as a monster by someone who thinks my world should all be sunshine, unicorns, and rainbows. If you have kids your approach works with- great, they are not my kids, and my kids have different needs. My trying to parent the the way someone else thinks is right and not giving them boundaries and consequences is no different than my trying to parent them through hitting, screaming, and yelling would be. None of it would be good for my children. I would not be meeting their needs, and that would be as un-AP as anything could be.

The gist here is that this debate is over who does the best for their kids. Who is the most loving, most caring, Bestest Parent Ever!!! We are pretty blessed to live in a society where we can take the time and energy to care about what we think is best. We are blessed to be able to debate whether the food we are feeding our kids is organic enough or healthy enough. Around the world as we discuss the horror of Nutella as a food source, kids starve. In other parts of the world, as we discuss what it is to use Gentle Discipline, young children are conscripted to the armies around the world, and young girls are being forced to have sex before they even hit puberty.

Chances are, if you are thinking about what is best for your child, and if you actively consider their well being throughout their lives, your kids will be just fine- even if they occasionally eat a twinkie or if you lose it and yell once in a while. The TV won't kill them off- even if you use it to buy yourself time for a much deserved shower. Yes, we can all find something we have done wrong or something to feel guilty about, but it really seems like energy that could better be spent on our families well-being rather than feeding the bottomless pit of Mommy-Guilt.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...MDC is a wonderful place to go to for support and education but unfortunately yes, it can be a very judgmental place also. I feel sad that I have to worry that if I send friends here they will get upset by what they see and that won't help them learn about AP at all.


----------



## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

I yell, send kids to their rooms, one was grounded for 3 months when she was 15 for sneaking a boy over when we weren't home (and not making attitude adjustments afterwards so she dragged out her restriction way longer than it needed to be), I smoke, and cuss, I do homebirth but in a very non-peaceful manner once I hit transition, my third baby would ONLY sleep on the floor, not any type of bed, so to keep her safe I emptied our closet and she slept on the closet floor. I talk dirty, I don't recycle whatsoever, one of my daughters plays sports, we watch lots of tv, and if I had a label it would be something like hippy hick. I am a hick but am called a hippy by lots of people in my area for my ap-type choices. I couldn't stand to be totally ap/nfl but there's no way I could be totally mainstream, either, because there are safety/health issues involved there(like carseats and feeding and things like that). I like a nice middleground, there, and imo that's how it should be. I have friends who are totally ap/nfl and friends who are totally mainstream, and as long as no one is abusing or neglecting their children I don't care. The thing with the forward facing carseat really worries me as that's actually a big deal, not just a choice between a sling vs a stroller, but an actual safety issue!


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

I feel like a misfit alot...I dont quite fit in here or mainstream boards cause I have crunchy AND mainstream traits.

Crunchy Traits

Breastfeeding

Co-sleeping

Gentle Discipline

Natural cleaners

Mainstream Traits

Circing

Vaccinating

Fast Food

tv

public school


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

By the way, Charlie's Angel...this is a great thread!! And I have to point out, that I often do on these boards, that even Dr. Sears says in his books that AP is not a checklist of do's and dont's..its about doing what's best for your family. He must get frustrated and sad about how mothers treat each other like they are terrible for not quite following all the AP rules.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> Okay... this may end up being long... because there are lot of thoughts tumbling around in my head on this.
> 
> ...


Excellent post


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> If you go you have to tell me where! LOL I have yet to find a place I fit too. Love you Gina! *hugs*


Yeah me too


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Maybe you need to re look at my wording where I said Circing a child DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE NOT AP. I can not get into a circ argument. Mutilating anyone's genitals is not OK in my book for ANY reason. I understand and empathize with someone who did that un-informed b/c I know they were trying to do "what was best (what they were told was best)" but anyone who is informed and is still por-circ makes me sick. There is no circ debate! None! No medical organization in the world recommends circ and all those "studies" done that show how much cleaner/healthier whatever a circ'ed penis is were all wrong or exaggerated and yes the AAP recognized that and says RIC is not worth it for "medical benefits". Even they say it's only for religious or social benefits now. End of discussion!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> And there is an interesting point.... I really feel this is a personal decision to the person. This is such a flame war discussion... and so many strong opinions on BOTH sides.
> 
> ...


You can debate a LOT of things but IMO when a child is hurt (and you can't tell me cutting off a part of your genitals would not hurt) then it is no longer debatable even if they possibly maybe someday could have some sort of infection.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Sorry I keep posting so much...another thing I do wrong lol....but what if we started a Finding Your Tribe thread for Middle-Roaders???


----------



## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Ok, I'll play








I'm usually a super perfect mom














but pregnancy has made me a little lazy!!! Over the last few weeks of dealing with being tired and nauseous, I've totally let my son go to town on the xbox or the sims 3 so I can lay around and watch trash TV... Mob Wives, anyone?

As for food related stuff... well, let's just say that I have some cravings and my son has said to me a few times "I love you being pregnant! We get to eat all kinds of junk!"


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm*
> 
> Sorry I keep posting so much...another thing I do wrong lol....but what if we started a Finding Your Tribe thread for Middle-Roaders???


I don't think anyone would say you post "so much"...you are a sneaky lady as I said before, you fly in and out real quick!


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

I don't understand why people are upset about this thread.

I see it much the same way I would see a thread about "cheating" on a weight loss board.

People on weight loss boards often post about the chocolate bar they ate that ruined their calorie count, and they get empathy because everyone makes mistakes and they are still trying.

That's how I see this thread. As a sort of, "sure, we all aren't perfect, and here is how I am not perfect, but at least we are trying to be more natural, so we are still okay, now let's all have a group hug" type of thread.

If we didn't support AP/NFL, *we would just leave MDC*.

No one here is advocating anything against the TOS (at least that I have seen), so if you don't like the thread, how about you just stop reading it and let the rest of us get some things off our chests. It makes us feel better about ourselves and our efforts to be crunchy, and that in turn allows us to be better parents and not give up AP/NFL because we see it as just too hard to be perfect.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm eating ice cream with DD, watching Toy Story 3 and letting her play with her plastic toxic as hell toys right now....

and it is all that I ever dreamed it could be


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> That is a perfect example of the kind of spankings that have people all hysterical on these boards about MDC not being inclusive. This thread was meant to be a light hearted "we're not all perfect" place to share, not a place to get criticized.


LOL this is true

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I don't think anyone would say you post "so much"...you are a sneaky lady as I said before, you fly in and out real quick!


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm*
> 
> LOL this is true


Umm...meant to only quote the bottom one..but it is funny that even in this thread there is criticism.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Please let's not start a circ debate...I'm scared of those ladies!!


----------



## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm*
> 
> Sorry I keep posting so much...another thing I do wrong lol....but what if we started a Finding Your Tribe thread for Middle-Roaders???


Started one! Hopefully it will help everyone feel welcome for who they are. MDC is not intended to be a crunchy contest. Everyone is welcome and if some of the forums on here influence and change ones lifestyle good, if not than good too. Moms just need to do what is right for their family and themselves.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I did it to come clean that I dont fit in here, nor do I fit in on mainstream boards. I dont fit in anywhere. Im a giant hodgepodge of different parenting styles, and I wanted to FINALLY be able to say it here. I have built up the courage to do so, and was creating a small space for other parents to do the same. I have learned alot from this community, and am ever grateful for it. But it also ticks me off that I might not belong here just because I dont conform to ALLL AP/NFL practises. So where should I go? Should I start my own forum? WOOPS, that would require me to spend even MORE time at the computer. Not very AP.


But why would you say you don't belong here? Because other people have made comments that seem to imply as much? If YOU feel like you belong here, then you do. Why would you let someone else define who you are or where you belong? Nobody is 100% crunchy.

I let my kids watch disney movies and have plastic, noisy toys. No matter what anyone else says about it, I still belong here on MDC. I'm still AP, I'm still crunchy.

(You have to post within the TOS/UA, of course. So there are some things you can't post proudly about.)


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

We love Disney Movies. Princess movies, toy story movies, fish movies all of it!!

I use paper plates for my daycare.


----------



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I remembered another one:

I LOVE MY MICROWAVE


----------



## Monarchgrrl (Aug 16, 2007)

DD is 7 months old and I've already had to change so many of my "crunchy plans" to suit her.

- We don't co-sleep anymore. DD sleeps in her own room in a pack n' play. With the door closed.

- We use a baby monitor

- We use disposable diapers when traveling

- DD uses a pacifier to sleep

- We have a hand-me-down exersaucer and door-hanging jumper thing and she *loves* them!

- DD's favorite toy is a real TV remote control that we bought especially for her

- We use paper towels, toilet paper, tampons and sometimes paper plates

- We use chemical cleaners

- We use store-bought baby wipes

- We watch way too much TV (baby doesn't- yet)

- We have two cars and I shouldn't drive to work. The public transportation system is super easy, but I don't use it

- I had a homebirth but if we have a second child (doubtful) I will have an epidural in the hospital


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> What about the very recent thread that compared formula feeding to child abuse? Strollers and "bucket seats" have been deemed abusive more times than I care to count. It seems if you're not carrying your children everywhere you're looked down on as some sort of lazy schlub who just refuses to go that extra mile. Don't even get me started on ultrasounds..


See, I used a stroller with ds1, and use one now with ds2. I don't even understand why I wouldn't. I had 2 hospital births, and would have another one if I had to make the choice. I had 3 u/s with ds1, and 2 with ds2, and had one during my 3rd pg before we found out it was ectopic. I have never read any thread that made me feel "less than" because of those things. I might have read some posts criticizing those things, but I know why I do what I do, and I'm comfortable that my choices are good for my family. No amount of reading "ack! Strollers are child abuse!" (which I've never read) would make me think I was not AP, not crunchy, or not worthy of MDC. Why would I let a random poster on the internet define how I feel about me?

If I read an anti-stroller thread and think they make a good point, I might reconsider. But if I think it makes no sense at all, then I move on with my life, yk?

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I agree...and I don't think people should have gotten so hysterical over "you might not be a mainstream parent if...your kids don't understand why their friends can't come over until 3pm". I will never ever in a billion years homeschool, but it doesn't offend me that someone says homeschooling isn't mainstream. It isn't. And if that person thinks they're better than me, (which I didn't sense at all from that post), I don't care. I am having a really hard time understanding why so many other people care and take everything as such an attack on them if they don't do the same thing.


I read one page of that thread and had the same thought. Just because someone says they are crunchy because they use nutritional yeast doesn't mean that they think that you are NOT crunchy if you don't. Maybe they don't compost (I do). But then, they don't buy plastic toys (I do). But then I grow a garden (they don't). But they buy organic (I don't). See? You can't possibly make it a contest, because how could you ever define a "winner?" There are so many different decisions we all make.

I think there are certain things that are the basis of AP, but like someone said earlier, even Dr. Sears said that it's not a checklist, and there's obviously room for personal opinions and experiences. Personally, I DO think there are some basics that should be respected on MDC, because that's the rules they have decided to have for their board.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> No one here is advocating anything against the TOS (at least that I have seen), so if you don't like the thread, how about you just stop reading it and let the rest of us get some things off our chests.


Spanking and circ.

And I started reading this thread because I thought it would be fun. But after a few posts, when I noticed that people were apparently proud of doing things that are illegal or that are not allowed per the TOS, it stopped being fun.

Then I got to thinking about it, and I think it's sad that so many people think that silly things like strollers or eating sugar make them "less than." Less than what? Less than 100% crunchy (I doubt anyone is)? Less crunchy than someone else? (so what?) Less crunchy than they'd like to be? (that one would be the only one that matters).


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

There are a lot of things I do that are mentioned in this thread, but none of them cancels out my crunchiness. I'm only posting them because...I don't know. To show people that it doesn't matter if you're 100% or not, you can still feel like you belong at MDC.

Ds1 goes to public school, and we love it.

We don't eat organic.

I LOVE sugar, and so do my kids.

We'll get some vaxes.

Ds1 is (regrettably) circ'ed (ds2 is not).

I use a microwave.

We eat fast food sometimes.

We're not veg*n.

We have plastic toys galore.

My kids watch tv almost daily.

I love my stroller, and so have both of my kids.

I use bleach to clean sometimes.

I give my kids Tylenol if they are in pain.

Many more, but I have to go clean my house...before I go pick up my kid from public school.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamayogibear*
> 
> Started one! Hopefully it will help everyone feel welcome for who they are. MDC is not intended to be a crunchy contest. Everyone is welcome and if some of the forums on here influence and change ones lifestyle good, if not than good too. Moms just need to do what is right for their family and themselves.


Cool...thanks!


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I have been here 7 years and threads like these always pop up and they are always a drag, and here's my opinion why:

We all do what we think is best. Sometimes we learn about something else, and it might make us feel bad, and then we might change what we do. Or it might not make us feel bad, and we might continue with what we were doing. These are our rights as human beings and they apply to everything, not just parenting.

That said, there are appropriate venues for everything, and we have to consider that before speaking. For example:

-My father is conservative. I am not. I would be foolish to start a discussion of politics with him, b/c it will end in hurt feelings. My father has a lot of other wonderful qualities, though, and we love to talk cooking and history.

-I have family members who are in 12-step programs. They do not agree with everything in those programs, and yet they find them of great benefit. It would be foolish for them to go to meetings and tell the whole meeting the parts they didn't agree with. That's not what they're there for b/c it would be disruptice, and their areas of disagreement do not preclude them from participating. In fact, 12-step programs have a wonderful saying: TAKE WHAT YOU LIKE, AND LEAVE THE REST.

-My sister circumcised her sons long before I even know about circumcision. My sons are not circumcised. We do not discuss this, but she was a great help to me with breastfeeding and cosleeping. Neither of us feels a great need to have a fight about this.

MDC has a very clear purpose, and it needs to, b/c there are so many parenting forums out there, and the things that are normal here are super-weird anywhere else. If you do something that is not generally accepted here, you are still welcome here, but you shouldn't look to this place for support of that particular thing. We are not being callous when we say, "There are other forums for that," b/c there are no other forums for parents as "weird" as many people here. MDC's purpose and orientation should not be interpreted as shaming, though individual people here may act like jerks at any point, and often do. If your practices get challenged, here or anywhere, it is up to you to process the new information and decide if you're going to do anything about it. There is no life guarantee that you will never be challenged. Rather than nurse a list of resentments against people here who do things differently and are vocal about it, use that energy to either avoid the forum that "makes you" feel bad and/or actively explore those feelings. In my experience, discomfort is a sure sign that I need to look at something inside myself. There are many things I do that I would be able to list on a thread like this, but I feel no shame about them, and I won't list them here, b/c I think threads like this encourage a feeling of alienation and hostility which is anathema to the sense of community that is so wonderful about MDC.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I like that posting how you think this thread sucks just basically proves some of the points made here in this thread.


----------



## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
> 
> Ok, I'll play
> 
> ...


Oh, Mob Wives has me by the balls. I can't look away. I have a weird obsession with all the wives shows. So. Much. Drama.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program.


----------



## SuburbanHippie (Aug 29, 2008)

I've had 4 hospital births and actually enjoy epidurals (when they work).

I'm making frozen pizzas for dinner tonight and they aren't organic or even claiming to be "natural."

We have way more plastic toys than wooden ones.

Our tv is on almost all day as background noise.

No babywearing here. I tried a ring sling, but my baby almost fell out so obviously I wasn't doing that right. I had a snugli too, but that just made me sweat like a pig.

I've stopped using my clothesline since we went through Lice Fest 2011. I haven't missed it at all. I will start back up using it once I'm not ginormously pregnant though I'm sure.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I am against spanking (hell, you were vocal in my spanking VS violence thread), and circ, and I was pretty nauseous when I read the carseat one, too. However, I think that there is a difference between saying "I do this" and "people should do this." It's a fine line, but admitting you do something is not the same as advocating it. I eat tons of sugar, and I hate that I do this, and I would never "advocate" it, even though I will say that I enjoyed the chocolate covered peanuts I just ate. There has been a moderator appearance in this thread, and if the moderator didn't feel that the thread deserved to be altered/locked, then I think this is a non-issue. Not that these things happen, but that they were mentioned. I am saying I think it didn't break TOS. If people start telling me that spanking/circ/forward-facing carseats are good and I should switch to their side, I will be the first to report them, but for now I am just enjoying this thread, free from the pressures (real or imagined) that make us feel "less than."


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Dauphitte, have you seen some of the UC threads on here? I find it amusing you think MDC isn't crunchy enough at this point...


I had a UC Ldavis, lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, that cracked me up and I don't know why...............Um, but that is a very specific sub-board and if you don't want a UC, aren't going to have UC and don't like the idea of UC then you don't really ever have to read that board.....but I'm talking about the more common boards here on MDC where moms that are more middle of the road would have reason to hang out. I don't really hang out on sub-boards that aren't pertaining to subjects that have to do directly with my life/interests.


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I certainly didn't report anyone, that's not my style. I guess now that Op added MDCness to the title it would include circ I was just upset people see circ as being "not AP" b/c the two do not correlate.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> On the other hand, Mothering isn't the be-all and end-all of my internet world. Its function is to be a place to discuss AP/NFL, and while sometimes other stuff comes up (news, baby names, all of TAO), I've never really thought of it as a place to talk about stuff that's directly opposed to AP/NFL. That would be like, say, going to a homeschooling board and wanting to talk about your kid's school, or vice versa. There's nothing wrong with either choice - school or homescholl - but the place seems wrong to me. That's not saying people should hide things - if someone on a homeschool board is asked how many kids she has, for example, she might say, 'Two, but only one is homeschooled' and that would be the end of it, unless she followed up with 'and I'm having trouble deciding whether I want to homeschool them both next year' or something.
> 
> So if I want to talk about other stuff, I go elsewhere, not because I feel judged about it here but because this isn't a board for that. When I want to talk about more AP/NFL stuff, I come here. It's worked well for me...


Right!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I will say it again. I DO NOT ADVOCATE CIRCING. Sheesh. I also said I smoke, but I dont see anyone assuming that I think everyone should smoke.

My story. I do not have a penis and my husband does. My husband and his brothers are all circed. I had enough hoops to jump through with all the vaxing research and decisions I was making that I let my husband make the decision about what to do with our sons penises. Thats all. I would bet a kajillion dollars that if I opened that pandoras box, I would be appalled at what I find, as would my husband, and any future children we bare would be left intact. Ive already planted the seed after we watched a show on TLC one night. A man was trying to regnerate his foreskin, and some numbers were thrown out about how many men in the US and other countries were actually living with forskin. My husband was amazed, as every man he has ever known is cut. (atleast to the best of his knowledge 

The end.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Glad i'm not the only one.

It seems to me there is some rebeling and catty-ness but it kinda feels like it is coming from the side that is protesting MDC so much. I dunno, it never really occured to me to come to MDC to find friends, I just kinda come for the advice I need and then go about my life.


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

In case it wasn't clear my responses weren't towards you if you meant that towards me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I will say it again. I DO NOT ADVOCATE CIRCING. Sheesh. I also said I smoke, but I dont see anyone assuming that I think everyone should smoke.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I had a UC Ldavis, lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, that cracked me up and I don't know why...............Um, but that is a very specific sub-board and if you don't want a UC, aren't going to have UC and don't like the idea of UC then you don't really ever have to read that board.....but I'm talking about the more common boards here on MDC where moms that are more middle of the road would have reason to hang out. I don't really hang out on sub-boards that aren't pertaining to subjects that have to do directly with my life/interests.


Ok, I'm not really surprised by that.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I drive a Jeep Cherokee and I can't wait for school to start!

(I love time with my kids, but right now I just drive them one place and then another and then another. I like just walking them to school and them doing interesting things there FOR HOURS without me having to take them to different locations)

PS: neither of my kids is circ'd, but they are both girls so I don't know if I get points for that


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I don't understand why people are upset about this thread.
> 
> ...


No, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't see these lists as confessions, I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.

And who are you to say that other MDCers cant read this thread or oppose it?

I agree with a pp that this would be better as a find-your-tribe thing and not an open thread on the parenting (NFL parenting I might add) board.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Oh the horrros....now your Crunchy card is going to be taken away.

Dogma is silly.

When I see kids on the playgound I can't say whose mom was HB, CS, UC, had an epidural or not. Who co-slept and who did not. Who ahd strolelr and who had a sling. Who eat organic and who is not. Who watches TV and who is Waldorf.

I can see whose mom drunk a lot whiel pregnant or whose daddy beats mommy.

Being a good parent is not the same is checking every item on some "perfect Cruncky, Tiget Mother or what not " checklist.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Being a good parent is not the same is checking every item on some "perfect Cruncky, Tiget Mother or what not " checklist.


I agree with your post, but had to crack up at "Cruncky Tiget Mother" -- I love it!


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I like that posting how you think this thread sucks just basically proves some of the points made here in this thread.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> No, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't see these lists as confessions, I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.
> 
> ...


Except that there is no requirement that every member do all things in their life AP/NFL/whatever. So, of course, unless you are the perfect (extreme) natural family living parent, you are going to be able to list several things that you don't happen to include in your life. Whether it's by choice - such as using flushable toilet paper... or necessity - such as a c-section. All those differences are what makes the world (and message boards like MDC) an interesting place. If we all conformed and did everything the same, it would be pretty damn lame.

Our ideals are all the same - raise happy, healthy children.

And I wish I had a Hummer, so there.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> No, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't see these lists as confessions, I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.
> 
> ...


Trust me, I think most of us are aware that there are people who will oppose this. Six months ago this thread would have been deleted in the first five minutes. It shouldn't be allowed as an open thread? Yes, wouldn't want to pollute the perfect waters.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I don't see these lists as confessions, I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.


I've actually agreed with a lot of what you've said dauphinette, but if it seems like no moms are feeling bad about choices they've confessed, I think that is because you're right. Nobody is feeling bad about any of the choices they've made and posted here. Because--I am assuming, the choices have been made because it is what works for each of us. It is more of a "I'm confessing that I am not actually perfect instead of hiding behind the facade that I believe in every single thing posted on MDC and also have the resources and energy to practice is." I like this thread for that. I don't want all of MDC to be one big confession of "it turns out I'm really not crunchy at all", though. I still love MDC for what it stood for when I joined, but it is nice once in a while to admit we're all not perfect and not feel guilty about it. We are all human after all.


----------



## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> No, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't see these lists as confessions, *I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.*
> 
> ...


Maybe because the moms do NOT feel bad about the particular choices they have made. I find parenthood to be a constant ebb and flow. They exit one stage and enter another. What worked for one child within a family does not work for the next. How many of us had wonderful, easy, go-with-the-flow, smiley first babies that serenely nursed to sleep and slept with mommy all night long and just patted ourselves on the back for our Mad Parenting Skillz...this is so easy, do this and your life is easy. Then, the next child is so the opposite: strong-willed, insists on sleeping a-l-o-n-e and needs to fuss a minute or two before sleeping (and how many of us will rock that child for hours, when he can be put down and be asleep within 5-10 minutes), then will wake at 7, breakfast at 7:30, nap at 10, lunch at 11:30--you know, you must keep the schedule to the minute or you are dealing with the wrath of the baby. What works for one family does not work for the next.
And, I do get a lot out of MDC, which is why I keep coming back and participating in the community. And, sometimes I think some moms are so "invested" in the "AP Checklist", that they don't want to admit something does not work (think the baby that hates co-sleeping and mommy had been looking so forward to it, or when breastfeeding does not work out, or mom planned a peaceful UC only to end up in the hospital for an emergency c-section, or due to whatever reasons--economy/finances, husband loses job and can't find another, he gets disabled, he leaves, she just plain likes her job, mom has to make the decision to return to work, partner does not support AP/NFL.)


----------



## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Except that there is no requirement that every member do all things in their life AP/NFL/whatever. So, of course, unless you are the perfect (extreme) natural family living parent, you are going to be able to list several things that you don't happen to include in your life. Whether it's by choice - such as using flushable toilet paper... or necessity - such as a c-section. All those differences are what makes the world (and message boards like MDC) an interesting place. If we all conformed and did everything the same, it would be pretty damn lame.
> 
> ...


Want to drive a Hummer? Join the Army--they have plenty. :lol


----------



## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I love epidurals! LOVE them! I use disposable diapers and I do not like to baby wear. I need my space. Out and about I would but around the house...no.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> No, I don't really see it that way at all. I don't see these lists as confessions, I haven't really seen any of the moms making them saying that they feel bad about these choices.
> 
> ...


Please read the quote again. I didn't say you "can't" do anything. I am suggesting that you do the same thing you are saying you do and stay out of areas you aren't interested in. If you are so opposed to going against the NFL grain, why are you in this thread?? If you can't contribute to the conversation *we are having*, why are you posting?


----------



## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

I have to laugh at how the most random threads turn into crazy debates!

Anyway:

We used regular diapers (and wrapped the poopy ones in plastic grocery bags!) and I can't see myself cloth-anything.

I let my kid play with toy guns--and got called out because my views weren't MDC-enough or whatever...

We eat a lot of crap but we do try to balance it out with good stuff.

Basically tons of what other people have said but my brain is too fried to think of things right now.

Oh, and *I can't stand the word "crunchy" as an adjective.*


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

I am really learning a lot from this thread. I had no idea that using toys was considered against natural parenting. I guess they have to be made of wood? Which kind of makes me wonder what people who are against plastic toys feed their babies with? Wooden spoons? Wooden bowls? Do they all cook in wooden pots, too? I'm not being sarcastic, I am genuinely intrigued by people that don't sit their babies in anything plastic all day. I am kind of confused by some of it, but at least I have learned that these topics are touchy.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Yes, you coudl tell all these "mainstreamers" at MDC to go away and find themselves a mainstream board.

But the fact is, there are differences of opinion about what is "mainstream," and what constitutes "AP" and what constitutes "natural living." And invariably, people who come here for one thing (breastfeeding advice, or natural childbirth advice, or sleeping without CIO advice) run into people who have little checklists in their heads about "THE ONE WAY TO DO THIS."

So the person who wants advice on breastfeeding posts a generic question, and gets jumped on for being a big, mean, mother-led weaner. "Don't Ask Don't Refuse is a weaning technique, mama!" A person who posts about having weaned might get told that all her child's issues are due to that and she should relactate. People asking for advice on potty training get told that even their cloth diapers are abusive and REAL AP parents are all into EC now.

All these practices exist on a continuum, and it seems like often, there's a vocal minority at one end of the continuum, berating people, as though the object of being at MDC is to urge people on, like lemmings, off the edge of the world. From Breast is Best, to "Aim for 2 years," to "let them decide when to wean." From "Unmedicated labor is healthiest for the baby," to "Homebirth is the only way to have a good birth," to "Any birth attendant is unnatural!" From "Spanking is wrong," to "Timeouts are bad," to "Saying no is harmful," to "expressing any opinion on your child's behavior is manipulative behaviorism." From "public schools aren't very invidualistic," to "Homeschool so you're never separated from your kids," to "parents even suggesting books to kids destroys their intellectual development."

And there's always someone waiting in the wings to tell someone who they perceive as "behind" them on each of those paths that they're doing it wrong. A lot of people can't accept that not everyone *wants* to push every aspect of this to the ultimate limit, and that for many people, that extreme position is *not* the best for their family, health, or community.

For the record:

I mother-led weaned both my kids, one at 18 months, the second at 2.

I used a pacifier with one of my kids.

I am in love with both the concept of Free Appropriate Public Education *and* the way it is executed in my home town.

I birthed med-free in the hospital with CNMs. Despite that, I had a full-on Odent-style FER, in which my 10-pounder fell out of me in one contraction. Hah.

I vaccinate. yes, I've done the research. For real.

I think GMOs are probably going to be necessary to feed the growing world population.

My kids went to daycare and I'm not ashamed of that fact, nor do I think working is incompatible with raising attached children.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Yes, you coudl tell all these "mainstreamers" at MDC to go away and find themselves a mainstream board.
> 
> ...


I...I think I love you.


----------



## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama* 

That is a perfect example of the kind of spankings that have people all hysterical on these boards about MDC not being inclusive. This thread was meant to be a light hearted "we're not all perfect" place to share, not a place to get criticized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama* 

I guess I just dont understand why someone would feel the need to brag about how much they are using up natural resources for no particular reason other than they "love" it.

And to be fair, this thread was started in direct response of the "you might NOT be a mainstream parent if....," where things that people were saying over there were being criticized, even though it was stated over and over again that the thread was started for fun



> Please step down off your high horse


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I've actually agreed with a lot of what you've said dauphinette, but if it seems like no moms are feeling bad about choices they've confessed, I think that is because you're right. Nobody is feeling bad about any of the choices they've made and posted here. Because--I am assuming, the choices have been made because it is what works for each of us. It is more of a "I'm confessing that I am not actually perfect instead of hiding behind the facade that I believe in every single thing posted on MDC and also have the resources and energy to practice is." I like this thread for that. I don't want all of MDC to be one big confession of "it turns out I'm really not crunchy at all", though. I still love MDC for what it stood for when I joined, but it is nice once in a while to admit we're all not perfect and not feel guilty about it. We are all human after all.










Well said.


----------



## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

This one has been just as interesting as the other one.

With that said both DH and I parent the way we feel is right and with what works for us. We research what we feel needs to other areas we are okay with not doing the research and just making a choice. We make changes when we need to and are always open to other ideas. We try to live a more environment friendly lifestyle but there are just some things that I don't do and I am okay with that.

I would say what sets me apart from most on the boards

Would be the way we eat compared to most. We don't do organic. I do cook about 98% of our meals and no box meals but I'm not real big on label reading. Love meat.

We use paper products of all kinds. Its just easier at times.

Very much into the girly frilly pink stuff DD. I like it and so I get to chose right now till she says otherwise.

Lots of plastic toys.

Stroller, bouncer, swing, jump a roo all life savers.

Do no baby wear at all. Tried did not work.

DD is on formula now. I dried up and well I just can't use donated milk. It crosses my comfort line.

I do not and will not NIP. I will sit in the bathroom first if I had to or go out to the car.

Disposable diapers. Thought about cloth diapering and well to much work for me. I hate laundry the way it is so why create more for myself.

If we have a boy he will be circd. Done the research to a certain extent and still come out from that saying its what is best for us and our boy.

While not CIO. We did do a form of sleep training but was not harsh at all and for the most part she lead it.

I was not going to be a human pacifier so DD got a pacifier. (but she couldn't figure out how to nurse and not get milk so it kinda worked out.) I had over supply issues pretty much till I dried up.

Had a hospital birth with an epidural ( I tried to do it natural but couldn't do it). Best thing ever for me. But I had a Midwife and she was awesome followed everything I wanted like skin to skin right away, delayed cord clamping and as little checks as possible. This birth will be with an epidural, but seeing a normal Dr. Not OB or Midwife. (kinda bothers me but unless I want to pay I have no say) but so far from my discussions they will follow what I want so I am okay with it.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I...I think I love you.


----------



## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Is it weird that I'm not really crunchy or AP at all, and I don't feel unwelcome at MDC? (At least I feel un-crunchy and un-AP compared to most people here. I guess I'm actually pretty middle-of-the-road.) I'm actually just here for future reference, so maybe I'd be more sensitive if I already had kids.

It seems there are only a few "rules" for fitting in with the MDC crowd, as far as I can tell: don't physically assault your child, don't use CIO, don't amputate any of your infant's healthy body parts, give human milk if you can, rear-face the car seat, if you ever broke any of those treat it as a mistake, and use the







smiley if you admit to eating at McDonald's. Homeschooling, letting your kids play with toy guns, letting your kids watch TV, giving birth at home, using a sling, eating sugar, eating meat, eating gluten, leaving your kid in a room alone with your dog, wanting your schoolkid to have homework, giving your kid such and such a vaccine, giving your kid Tylenol, taking Tylenol when in labor, etc all seem to have proponents on each side.

(My least-MDC-ish aspect is that I *make* video games and plan to do so for a living someday.)


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I've actually agreed with a lot of what you've said dauphinette, *but if it seems like no moms are feeling bad about choices they've confessed, I think that is because you're right. Nobody is feeling bad about any of the choices they've made and posted here.* Because--I am assuming, the choices have been made because it is what works for each of us. It is more of a "I'm confessing that I am not actually perfect instead of hiding behind the facade that I believe in every single thing posted on MDC and also have the resources and energy to practice is." I like this thread for that. I don't want all of MDC to be one big confession of "it turns out I'm really not crunchy at all", though. I still love MDC for what it stood for when I joined, but i*t is nice once in a while to admit we're all not perfect and not feel guilty about it.* We are all human after all.


I'll agree, and I'll take this one step farther. The point of many people on this thread is that you don't have to take everything to the Nth degree in order to *be* perfect. And perhaps, there is in fact no such thing as "perfect."

And the first boldest statement? Is what people are trying to get across. There are people here with checklists in their heads of what AP or NFL *must* include, and if you don't do it all, *you should feel bad about it.* Right here, in this thread, people are being told that if you don't live up to some standard of perfection, you should feel bad. You should, apparently, feel ashamed of cribs, strollers, pacifiers and public school.

Funny, I've not actually seen that instruction in Dr. Sears. Must have missed that page.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> of course you did.


I thought this thread was all about creating LESS snark and judgement on these boards. This remark seems very uncalled for. And although I've stayed out of this thread, I have to say that your original "Have you been to the UC forum (read: Hey, you haven't seen weird until you've seen all those crazy whackadoos over in the UC forum)" comment was pretty rude, too.

At first I was going to post on this thread about all the non-AP/NFL things I do, but it's getting pretty negative and super, super defensive, so I'm just going to stay out of it.


----------



## Bena (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm*
> 
> And I have to point out, that I often do on these boards, that even Dr. Sears says in his books that AP is not a checklist of do's and dont's..its about doing what's best for your family. He must get frustrated and sad about how mothers treat each other like they are terrible for not quite following all the AP rules.


yes, yes and yes!


----------



## Emma Bryan Fuller (Dec 17, 2007)

I will play too  I usually just lurk on the homeschool forums!

I love bleach

I use store wipes, tampons, paper towels

I had 3 c-sections. First was an emergency....but loved them all  I have been flamed already don't worry 

I LOVE cloth diapers so, for me sposies may have worked out cheaper 

I would like to use more natural cleaning products. Also, never yell and be more calm. I would also like us to eat healthier. I did give up coffee a month ago though  I would like to have a generally more natural household and often read here and get ideas to strive towards it.

I have had many years of support here right from breastfeeding and now homeschooling.

I have pretty much been told I am not welcome due to my c-secs. Sometimes I feel like I don't fit when I read ridiculous posts " I feel sorry for my circed husband" (I do not circ) but still found this odd. Also, a woman who needed ways to cope with her relatives upcoming birth incase it resulted in a c sec. I think that some people feel so special because of the choices that they have made that is excludes others and makes them feel inferior....or that's their plan??? They would hate a/p to become mainstream. There is such a multi cultural group here that to many not circing is normal and so is childbirth at home and extended nursing. The funny thing is that when you kids get older you kind of lose that identity as the Moms at the baseball game do not ask how long you nursed for etc.

I do not know what I am getting at. I am comfortable with my choices and have areas I would like to improve. If you need to attack others or compare, it's your baggage, not theirs.


----------



## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

I think the point was to point out the differences in all of us. There is no set "crunchy" standard (I hate that word too). I don't identify as either mainstream or crunchy or AP or NFL. I'm just a parent. Period. I make informed decisions for my family. And I do the best I can. Just like all of you are trying to do. The problem in trying to fit everyone into your perfect ideal of AP is that not everyone is and there are some who kill themselves trying to do it. How many posts have you seen from moms just at the end of their rope, looking for affirmation that it is indeed okay to set your crying baby down for a few minutes in a safe situation to take a parental time out and the responses have just ripped them to shreds? Or pushed them to just keep holding on, no matter the detriment to your mental health. You identify spanking, CIO and kool-aid in a bottle as dangerous, negligent parenting, I say that it's dangerous, negligent posting to sit behind a computer screen and make a person who is already in a vulnerable position feel so low about themselves that they have serious mental effects. I've seen it happen. Time and again. I stick because I can find resources for questions that either I have or someone in my life does. I take breaks form MDC because of those reasons.

Also, so off topic, but how are wood toys greener? Don't they use trees to make them? No snark. Just an observation.


----------



## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

This is me. I don't think I fit in either more middle ground and I think how I survive most days is because I removed all titles and just go with it. The extreme sides I have encountered. This place is so full of information and I go to the boards that work for me and stay out of the ones that I have no interest in. Which what is UC?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> I think the point was to point out the differences in all of us. There is no set "crunchy" standard (I hate that word too). *I don't identify as either mainstream or crunchy or AP or NFL. I'm just a parent. Period. I make informed decisions for my family.* And I do the best I can. Just like all of you are trying to do. The problem in trying to fit everyone into your perfect ideal of AP is that not everyone is and there are some who kill themselves trying to do it. How many posts have you seen from moms just at the end of their rope, looking for affirmation that it is indeed okay to set your crying baby down for a few minutes in a safe situation to take a parental time out and the responses have just ripped them to shreds? Or pushed them to just keep holding on, no matter the detriment to your mental health. You identify spanking, CIO and kool-aid in a bottle as dangerous, negligent parenting, I say that it's dangerous, negligent posting to sit behind a computer screen and make a person who is already in a vulnerable position feel so low about themselves that they have serious mental effects. I've seen it happen. Time and again. I stick because I can find resources for questions that either I have or someone in my life does. I take breaks form MDC because of those reasons.
> 
> Also, so off topic, but how are wood toys greener? Don't they use trees to make them? No snark. Just an observation.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Yes, you coudl tell all these "mainstreamers" at MDC to go away and find themselves a mainstream board.
> 
> ...


Or, perhaps, there are people everywhere on the continuum who are just insecure, and who perceive anything different as a personal affront. Those extreme viewpoints you listed are total strawmen and I have never seen anything of the type, but I have seen 1 zillion of these "I'm not crunchy" threads. We need to go back to shutting them down b/c they are divisive, and rather than ameliorate mommy wars, they cause them. What I see here is people complaining about a community which they willingly joined b/c that community is not entirely supportive of every single thing they have ever done. There's TONS of things in my life that might fit on a thread like this, except I DON'T CARE. I am here to learn and to help, not be validated. I cannot learn by being in an echo chamber in which I only hear what I want to hear. I cannot help by only stroking other people. I agree with a PP that people need to put their big-girl panties on and conceive of the idea that different decisions are not personal affronts or attacks. If a member here does behave so boorishly, then maybe it is about that person being a jerk, not about MDC being some horrible place. I find it intensely... pointless... for people to join a community and then set themselves up as having a grievance against that community's very statement of purpose. As we used to say in 8th grade, "Why be so ANTI?"


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> I thought this thread was all about creating LESS snark and judgement on these boards. This remark seems very uncalled for. And although I've stayed out of this thread, I have to say that your original "Have you been to the UC forum (read: Hey, you haven't seen weird until you've seen all those crazy whackadoos over in the UC forum)" comment was pretty rude, too.
> 
> At first I was going to post on this thread about all the non-AP/NFL things I do, but it's getting pretty negative and super, super defensive, so I'm just going to stay out of it.


With all due respect, I think the rudeness and snark entered the thread about the same time people started coming in just to criticize it. How is that constructive? How is that positive? I find it kind of hard to keep the frustration out of my (digital) voice, too, when people seem to be trolling threads looking for things to look down their noses at. And my interpretation of the original comment on UC was that it doesn't get much more natural than UC. Which I don't think the poster meant as a bad thing, just as one end of the spectrum, which is clearly represented here on MDC. *But*, I am not the poster, so I can't be sure my interpretation is correct.

This thread would not have turned defensive if it hadn't first turned offensive.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Or, perhaps, there are people everywhere on the continuum who are just insecure, and who perceive anything different as a personal affront. Those extreme viewpoints you listed are total strawmen and I have never seen anything of the type, but I have seen 1 zillion of these "I'm not crunchy" threads. We need to go back to shutting them down b/c they are divisive, and rather than ameliorate mommy wars, they cause them. What I see here is people complaining about a community which they willingly joined b/c that community is not entirely supportive of every single thing they have ever done. There's TONS of things in my life that might fit on a thread like this, except I DON'T CARE. I am here to learn and to help, not be validated. I cannot learn by being in an echo chamber in which I only hear what I want to hear. I cannot help by only stroking other people. I agree with a PP that people need to put their big-girl panties on and conceive of the idea that different decisions are not personal affronts or attacks. If a member here does behave so boorishly, then maybe it is about that person being a jerk, not about MDC being some horrible place. I find it intensely... pointless... for people to join a community and then set themselves up as having a grievance against that community's very statement of purpose. As we used to say in 8th grade, "Why be so ANTI?"


If you "don't care," why are you taking the time to post here? I don't care about unassisted childbirth, so I don't troll the UC boards.

No, not every disagreement is a personal attack, but that doesn't mean personal attacks don't happen. I have seen personal attacks, like the thread mentioned upthread about how daycare is a form of child neglect, but I haven't seen one of these threads before. Perhaps that is because they were all shut down...

Sometimes adding "mainstreamers" to the mix doesn't make the "crunchy" more "mainstream," it makes the "mainstream" more "crunchy." But *not* when this is the kind of reception a little venting gets you.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> *I think the point was to point out the differences in all of us.* There is no set "crunchy" standard (I hate that word too). I don't identify as either mainstream or crunchy or AP or NFL. I'm just a parent. Period. I make informed decisions for my family. And I do the best I can. Just like all of you are trying to do. The problem in trying to fit everyone into your perfect ideal of AP is that not everyone is and there are some who kill themselves trying to do it. How many posts have you seen from moms just at the end of their rope, looking for affirmation that it is indeed okay to set your crying baby down for a few minutes in a safe situation to take a parental time out and the responses have just ripped them to shreds? Or pushed them to just keep holding on, no matter the detriment to your mental health. You identify spanking, CIO and kool-aid in a bottle as dangerous, negligent parenting, I say that it's dangerous, negligent posting to sit behind a computer screen and make a person who is already in a vulnerable position feel so low about themselves that they have serious mental effects. I've seen it happen. Time and again. I stick because I can find resources for questions that either I have or someone in my life does. I take breaks form MDC because of those reasons.
> 
> Also, so off topic, but how are wood toys greener? Don't they use trees to make them? No snark. Just an observation.


I know that the point of this thread was to have a thread that was directly opposite of this thread:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1317333/you-might-be-a-crunchy-parent-if

I think its really rude to jump on people on a thread where they are sharing things that they do that they consider "non mainstream" but then when you start your own thead to talk about how you "cancel out your APness" everyone who wants to disagree with any of the things you do is "on a high horse."

So really? MDC is now a place where mamas can be jumped on for saying that homeschooling is non mainstream and being proud that your kid doesnt know that babies are born in hospitals but its TOTALLY not okay to ask someone why they drive a gas guzzler intentionally? I see. Sorry, I didnt realize that.


----------



## DirtyHippyMama (Apr 29, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I am really learning a lot from this thread. I had no idea that using toys was considered against natural parenting. I guess they have to be made of wood? Which kind of makes me wonder what people who are against plastic toys feed their babies with? Wooden spoons? Wooden bowls? Do they all cook in wooden pots, too? I'm not being sarcastic, I am genuinely intrigued by people that don't sit their babies in anything plastic all day. I am kind of confused by some of it, but at least I have learned that these topics are touchy.


using toys in general is certainly not against natural parenting. some NFL mamas prefer to stick with natural material toys (perhaps for environmental reasons, anti-made-in-china reasons, waldorf philosophy, or aesthetic reasons)

i don't like and do avoid plastic, but it stems from aesthetic preferences and not liking the taste of plastic (i know i'm perhaps unusual in that i can taste the difference), but the "health benefits" are just an added bonus.









anyway, to answer your questions: i feed my baby with a steel spoon out of a ceramic custard ramekin. my other children have used "real" plates and cups/glasses from the age that they can feed themselves with utensils (i expect breakage and stock up on $.19 dishes from the salvation army







). i cook in steel, cast iron, and pyrex. i personally detest wooden utensils (for eating with -- love them for cooking)...talk about raking an emery board over your teeth.









however, my baby sits in a plastic high chair, a jumparoo, etc. but i imagine hard-core anti-plastic families have wooden high chairs, wooden floor gyms, and canvas baby hammocks (instead of a conventional baby swing). i would have those, too, because they are pretty, but they are not in our budget.

same for "natural" toys (mainly wood and cloth, some metal too). they can be expensive. most of our natural toys are either homemade, made in china







(i.e. cheap), or really, honest-to-god NATURAL (i.e. sticks, rocks, vines, etc.). i also have another "practical" reason for not liking plastic toys: many of them are poorly made, and will break easily when up against (at least) my children. that, imo, is a waste of money as well as an unnecessary addition to the landfill. and, the noisy battery-operated toys drive me insane. i banned them years ago, simply to cut down on the chaos. that said, there are still lots of plastic toys in our house (e.g. legos, anyone?







).

i also wanted to add that i have used pacifiers with every baby that would take one (not the current baby, grrr), and our kids play with toy weapons, too (military family, whattaya gonna do?).


----------



## Bena (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Yes, you coudl tell all these "mainstreamers" at MDC to go away and find themselves a mainstream board.
> 
> ...


May I also add that you write very well!!!


----------



## Bena (Jan 26, 2008)

i would also like to add to this discussion that the intention behind one`s action are also very important. If you are doing something just because "all the cool kids are doing it", is it really fair to your family and your children? To yourself? Authenticity is a big buzz word in AP circles, but authenticity is about being true to yourself. Regardless of what others are thinking and doing.

Soo....on this note....about the plastic high chairs...we have a wooden high chair. But you know why? It was pretty. Really...that`s my reason! Prettiness. (ok, on a practical side too, the wood model we found was way smaller and that was a major plus is our small house) But really, prettiness won.

But oh boy, do we look natural and crunchy when you come in our living room!!


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> MDC has a very clear purpose, and it needs to, b/c there are so many parenting forums out there, and the things that are normal here are super-weird anywhere else. If you do something that is not generally accepted here, you are still welcome here, but you shouldn't look to this place for support of that particular thing. We are not being callous when we say, "There are other forums for that," b/c there are no other forums for parents as "weird" as many people here. MDC's purpose and orientation should not be interpreted as shaming, though individual people here may act like jerks at any point, and often do. If your practices get challenged, here or anywhere, it is up to you to process the new information and decide if you're going to do anything about it. There is no life guarantee that you will never be challenged. Rather than nurse a list of resentments against people here who do things differently and are vocal about it, use that energy to either avoid the forum that "makes you" feel bad and/or actively explore those feelings. In my experience, discomfort is a sure sign that I need to look at something inside myself. There are many things I do that I would be able to list on a thread like this, but I feel no shame about them, and I won't list them here, b/c I think threads like this encourage a feeling of alienation and hostility which is anathema to the sense of community that is so wonderful about MDC.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> If you "don't care," why are you taking the time to post here?


I meant, I don't care if some things I do or believe don't fit in with the MDC philosophy, and I don't post about them here, and I don't expect others here to be supportive of them. I am posting in this thread b/c I think threads like this are divisive and hurtful to all involved. They demean our community and propagate mommy wars. I want people here to reconsider what they are doing in posting a list of "non-crunchy" things: they are feeding negative feelings in themselves and in others. No matter what parenting philosophy one subscribes to, feeding negative things like unearned shame, discord, resentment and judgment is never a good idea.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> of course you did.


ew, what in the world does that mean?


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I think you might have misunderstood why I posted that (and since posting in this medium is hard for me I want to say flat out that this is intended with all sincerity). I was responding to something a pp said, I quoted it, too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I've actually agreed with a lot of what you've said dauphinette, but if it seems like no moms are feeling bad about choices they've confessed, I think that is because you're right. Nobody is feeling bad about any of the choices they've made and posted here. Because--I am assuming, the choices have been made because it is what works for each of us. It is more of a "I'm confessing that I am not actually perfect instead of hiding behind the facade that I believe in every single thing posted on MDC and also have the resources and energy to practice is." I like this thread for that. I don't want all of MDC to be one big confession of "it turns out I'm really not crunchy at all", though. I still love MDC for what it stood for when I joined, but it is nice once in a while to admit we're all not perfect and not feel guilty about it. We are all human after all.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> hiding behind the facade that I believe in every single thing posted on MDC and also have the resources and energy to practice is."


This is interesting to me because it is very much a matter of your perspective and I would wonder why your perspective is so skewed in this regard? Why would you ever think that any of the MDC moms are coming from such a ridiculous place and then still want to get advice from them?


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I am really learning a lot from this thread. I had no idea that using toys was considered against natural parenting. I guess they have to be made of wood? Which kind of makes me wonder what people who are against plastic toys feed their babies with? Wooden spoons? Wooden bowls? Do they all cook in wooden pots, too? I'm not being sarcastic, I am genuinely intrigued by people that don't sit their babies in anything plastic all day. I am kind of confused by some of it, but at least I have learned that these topics are touchy.


i have to assume that you know plastic is a relatively new substance, right? people do use regular metal spoons to feed babies, or finger tips, or wooden baby spoons and yes babies can live in a plastic free world pretty much just as easily as one with plastic and I am not saying this to be rude but to answer your question.
I like a blog called Soulemama for this sort of inspiration if you are genuinely interested. She doesn't believe plastic has any place in her home but she makes it accessible instead of preachy.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Thank you, this is what I have been feeling and it is always true that others say it better than I do.










Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> I thought this thread was all about creating LESS snark and judgement on these boards. This remark seems very uncalled for. And although I've stayed out of this thread, I have to say that your original "Have you been to the UC forum (read: Hey, you haven't seen weird until you've seen all those crazy whackadoos over in the UC forum)" comment was pretty rude, too.
> 
> At first I was going to post on this thread about all the non-AP/NFL things I do, but it's getting pretty negative and super, super defensive, so I'm just going to stay out of it.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> Also, so off topic, but how are wood toys greener? Don't they use trees to make them? No snark. Just an observation.


*My humble opinion (I say opnion because it unresearched) of the answer to this would be that people who gravitate to wooden toys might also be of the mindset of less is more so while yes, a wooden toy comes from wood which comes from a tree, the child would have FAR fewer toys in general and the amount of toys would be sustainable so the amount of wood used would make that alternative sustainable....* not intending to debate with this response in any way


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm sure this will come as a surprise at this point but I just have to respectfully disagree with you.

I didn't come to this thread "trolling", I am just another MDC mom who thought the title was intriguing but after reading the first few entries I was turned off. It didn't take much. The disdain and snark from a few ladies in this thread seems to be oozing. No one is forced to be here but some's perspectives about MDC seem to be so so negative and ugly I just kinda had to say something and it turned into a debate, no doubt. But I think there are some real REAL issues from a group of ladies in this thread that kinda don't make sense to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> With all due respect, I think the rudeness and snark entered the thread about the same time people started coming in just to criticize it. How is that constructive? How is that positive? I find it kind of hard to keep the frustration out of my (digital) voice, too, when people seem to be trolling threads looking for things to look down their noses at. And my interpretation of the original comment on UC was that it doesn't get much more natural than UC. Which I don't think the poster meant as a bad thing, just as one end of the spectrum, which is clearly represented here on MDC. *But*, I am not the poster, so I can't be sure my interpretation is correct.
> 
> This thread would not have turned defensive if it hadn't first turned offensive.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> ew, what in the world does that mean?


MOO but I think it meant that she wasn't surprised by that fact. That is as I said JMO and what I took from it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> This is interesting to me because it is very much a matter of your perspective and I would wonder why your perspective is so skewed in this regard? Why would you ever think that any of the MDC moms are coming from such a ridiculous place and then still want to get advice from them?


Nobody said that all MDC moms are coming from a ridiculous place, I think it's more of, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Not everyone comes here just to give or get advice. If that were the case there would be no place for topics like this one (or vents which are my favorite). So being all up in arms about not looking for friends is all well and good...for you (PP whoeveryouare. I'm too lazy to go back and find your post)...but many of us are looking for friends, or people to bond with over stuff.

BUT MDC does not just exist to provide support y'all. It is (I hope) a place where discussion about parenting takes place. Sometimes that leads to disagreement and that is a GOOD thing. Support only threads are boring







. Toeing the party line can lead to some ridiculous oneupmanship. Don't lie...you've seen it too.

So anyways here is my list:

I love coney dogs smothered in chili and onions. MMMM.

I was a vegetarian for 15 long years but gave up when I was pregnant and never looked back (see item one)

I don't think that being a SAHM is always a good thing. In fact I think it can be very damaging to a woman's identity and career.

I will never homeschool

I love my stroller more than my ergo

I dye my hair

I can't wait for DS to be able to go to daycare/preschool

Sadly I think that is about all I've got as my choices are pretty crunchstream overall. But I LOVE the impish motivation behind this thread and many of the responses to it have me wondering why MDC threads always have to be so freaking serious.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Or, perhaps, there are people everywhere on the continuum who are just insecure, and who perceive anything different as a personal affront. Those extreme viewpoints you listed are total strawmen and I have never seen anything of the type, but I have seen 1 zillion of these "I'm not crunchy" threads. We need to go back to shutting them down b/c they are divisive, and rather than ameliorate mommy wars, they cause them. What I see here is people complaining about a community which they willingly joined b/c that community is not entirely supportive of every single thing they have ever done. There's TONS of things in my life that might fit on a thread like this, except I DON'T CARE. I am here to learn and to help, not be validated. I cannot learn by being in an echo chamber in which I only hear what I want to hear. I cannot help by only stroking other people. I agree with a PP that people need to put their big-girl panties on and conceive of the idea that different decisions are not personal affronts or attacks. If a member here does behave so boorishly, then maybe it is about that person being a jerk, not about MDC being some horrible place. I find it intensely... pointless... for people to join a community and then set themselves up as having a grievance against that community's very statement of purpose. As we used to say in 8th grade, "Why be so ANTI?"


Omgosh I am so glad you said it and not me!!!







I think I love U


----------



## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> *My humble opinion (I say opnion because it unresearched) of the answer to this would be that people who gravitate to wooden toys might also be of the mindset of less is more so while yes, a wooden toy comes from wood which comes from a tree, the child would have FAR fewer toys in general and the amount of toys would be sustainable so the amount of wood used would make that alternative sustainable....* not intending to debate with this response in any way


I don't know - I have seen some of the worst conspicuous consumption come from waldorf loving, sling wearing, cloth diaper-ers.


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> I don't know - I have seen some of the worst conspicuous consumption come from waldorf loving, sling wearing, cloth diaper-ers.


Yes...a certain inventory of the nursery comes to mind.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Not everyone comes here just to give or get advice. If that were the case there would be no place for topics like this one (or vents which are my favorite). So being all up in arms about not looking for friends is all well and good...for you (PP whoeveryouare. I'm too lazy to go back and find your post)...but many of us are looking for friends, or people to bond with over stuff.
> 
> ...


I am definitely here looking for friends! By now as I'm pregnant with my fourth child I know it all and no longer need advice...














No but really, I am mostly here to have good, adult conversation with other moms (and some dads!) whether that's advice or just pure silliness or even a good old fashioned debate...

My whole problem is when I come here and am scorned for silly things or shamed because I perhaps have left my child under two in the care of family members so I could do something frivolous like go out to eat or go to a movie...It'd be nice to not have the comments like "zomg, I could neva leave my child for a minute, they're only young once, it's just not worth it to me to leave them so I can go off and be selfish and uncaring, permanently damaging my child...but I mean, if that's what you want to do...*cough* bad mom *cough*"


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> I don't know - I have seen some of the worst conspicuous consumption come from waldorf loving, sling wearing, cloth diaper-ers.


ok. I said specifically that I was not intending debate just offering an opinion on what I think the pp said was a genuine question.


----------



## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> ok. I said specifically that I was not intending debate just offering an opinion on what I think the pp said was a genuine question.


no problem. just offering my own experiences.


----------



## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

I've enjoyed this thread, well maybe except for the parts that people are saying "oh, noes--this stuff is anti-MDC. shut it down. shut it down!" (or words to that effect, or at least, that is how I'm reading it.) It has really challenged my "picture" that I had in my head of different mamas here. Some that I'd pictured as uber-NFL, crunchy-granola, picture-perfect AP, MDC mom--to realize that they are human, too. We've all made different choices in our parenting journey. We all do what works for us at the time with the knowledge and resources we have at the time.

I'd love to buy and live in a Tiny House. Yes, all 5 of us. Homeschool my children--exact method to be determined. Eat a natural/organic grain-free diet, growing our own vegetables, at least. And buying our meat from a small farmer. Have very little plastic in our home. Recycle. Not use disposable paper items (or at least very rarely).

However, I'm not at a point in my life that is feasible. We have too much debt. We have too much stuff, but are furiously decluttering. We are considering home-school for next school year, but with all the options and choices, I can see us throwing our hands in the air and just sending the kids back to public school. DH is not keen on the tiny house idea. At least for our main residence, as a writer's hut, it is a great idea. I cannot afford the natural/organic grain-free paleo-ish diet. I'm still working on getting rid of artificial colors, as they make my children wacky. If not for MDC, many of these ideas may have never crossed my knowledge.

I'd love to have a home-birth, possibly a UC. However, I don't foresee having another baby. And, DH is against out-of-hospital birthing (at least for me.). I'm also teaching my daughters about these options, even if I did not choose them for myself. What they choose to do with the information is up to them.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> My whole problem is when I come here and am scorned for silly things or shamed because I perhaps have left my child under two in the care of family members so I could do something frivolous like go out to eat or go to a movie...It'd be nice to not have the comments like "zomg, I could neva leave my child for a minute, they're only young once, it's just not worth it to me to leave them so I can go off and be selfish and uncaring, permanently damaging my child...but I mean, if that's what you want to do...*cough* bad mom *cough*"


Seriously, when does this happen? How can I be here 7 years with 6600 posts and never see this sort of stuff? And even if it did happen, who cares? If it doesn't bother you, then why should it matter to you if it does bother someone else? Does that judgmental person have the power to ban you? Does their opinion of you make or break your day?

I think we also have to remember that everyone has their own most important cause that maybe brought them here, or they acquired here, and we should not be shocked when other people here don't share the same devotion. That's why there are separate fora. This thread actually overlaps with the equally pleasant "Which aspect of NFL/AP is most important?" also known as "If you had to circumcise or formula-feed, which would you choose?" All these threads always go so well.







So well, that we feel the need to repeat them every few months or so.

Seriously, folks, MDC is not a popularity contest, nor is it Survivor. No one is voting you off based on your list of crunchy cred. If you are tender about something you do, then don't share it online.


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> That's why there are separate fora.












I love the fact you just used *fora*. Seriously "forums" just makes me







. Huge pet peeve of mine.

Sorry...carry on...


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DirtyHippyMama*
> 
> using toys in general is certainly not against natural parenting. some NFL mamas prefer to stick with natural material toys (perhaps for environmental reasons, anti-made-in-china reasons, waldorf philosophy, or aesthetic reasons)...


Don't get me wrong, I disdain BPA as much as the next dirty hippie, but if we are going to go all-natural here, what are we doing using a computer anyway?









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> I want people here to reconsider what they are doing in posting a list of "non-crunchy" things: they are feeding negative feelings in themselves and in others. No matter what parenting philosophy one subscribes to, feeding negative things like unearned shame, discord, resentment and judgment is never a good idea.


That may be what you are doing. What the rest of us are trying to do is feel a sense of companionship and support in our less-than-perfection. And while I may not be proud of my specific shortcomings, I am proud that despite being imperfect, I keep trying. I accept that about myself and others, and have no problem discussing it. So I don't understand why, if you have a problem with the discussion, you keep coming back to it?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I'm sure this will come as a surprise at this point but I just have to respectfully disagree with you.
> 
> I didn't come to this thread "trolling", I am just another MDC mom who thought the title was intriguing but after reading the first few entries I was turned off. It didn't take much. The disdain and snark from a few ladies in this thread seems to be oozing. No one is forced to be here but some's perspectives about MDC seem to be so so negative and ugly I just kinda had to say something and it turned into a debate, no doubt. But I think there are some real REAL issues from a group of ladies in this thread that kinda don't make sense to me.


To me, trolling is participating in a threat only to interject negativity. If you feel this thread shouldn't be here, please flag it. If not, why bother insulting us all? I don't have a problem with MDC; *as I said earlier*, if I did, I wouldn't be here. I have a problem with people who have a superiority complex and seem to feel it is their mission in life to "fix" my parenting. I think that's the "disdain" you are seeing--it's not for the board itself, but for the overboard extremists on it. I find it kind of insulting to say that just because we aren't trying to make the "crunchiest" board we can find "crunchier" we have "real issues." When you don't have something nice to say, why say anything at all?


----------



## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

There sure is some weirdness going on here at MDC these days. How I see it- it was this AP "crunchy" board. Some people who don't agree with some of those types of things felt that this board was too rigid. And in general some people feel that some AP parents are too critical. So then people started expressing things that are not AP like for lack of better term. And elt liberated in doing so. But, now there are a whole lot of people on MDC who have different views on things than the original core theory of this forum. And now those things are infiltrating into the whole. But I think it feels unsettling. I understand why some people think people are too rigid. But this has moved beyond that- not this thread but this board, MDC. I mean- since the whole recent upheavel I now regularly see threads with long discussions involving spanking (such as- I spanked but what should I have done- which to me ( I haven't read that thread just the title) is a very uncomfortable thing to read about. Or threads about locking a toddler in her room at night. Or threads by people acting violently to theri children in some way (at least in the way I perceive it) and personally it makes me sad! I miss the moderation that happened to keep those types of things out. I don't have some conclusive point here. I understand how some peop[le want this to be a more inclusive and less exclusive type of forum. I do plenty of non perfect or whatever things, but I ultimately strive to be as gentle and loving of a parent as I can be, that is all. I mess up and make mistakes and test limits of where my comfort lies. But I am just a little sad about a certain sense of gentleness and respect for certain peaceful values that I used to find on MDC. Now I feel like people are so concerned with letting everyone have a free voice and their own opionions that there is not as strong of a place here to promote and discuss some of the original core values that brought htis forum together. There are so very many new posters- I have noticed- people with 1,2,3, or 4 posts- writing about things that are sometimes uncomfortable to me- as I mentionmed examples above. And- I don't know. There is somehow not such a cohernet welcoming community on here right now as I used to find. I personally would like the old moderating system to return. I felt safer in that type of forum.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Is it weird that I'm not really crunchy or AP at all, and I don't feel unwelcome at MDC? (At least I feel un-crunchy and un-AP compared to most people here. I guess I'm actually pretty middle-of-the-road.) I'm actually just here for future reference, so maybe I'd be more sensitive if I already had kids.
> 
> ...


Seems to sum it up pretty well, IMO!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> I'll agree, and I'll take this one step farther. The point of many people on this thread is that you don't have to take everything to the Nth degree in order to *be* perfect. And perhaps, there is in fact no such thing as "perfect."
> 
> ...


re: the part that I bolded- if this is in this thread, I must have missed it. I use a stroller, tried to use pacifiers, and use public school. I seriously didn't see anyone post anything that made me think that they think that I should feel bad about doing so. I suppose it could be that I am so comfortable with those particular choices that I don't notice criticisms of it?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> *Seriously, when does this happen? How can I be here 7 years with 6600 posts and never see this sort of stuff? And even if it did happen, who cares? If it doesn't bother you, then why should it matter to you if it does bother someone else? Does that judgmental person have the power to ban you? Does their opinion of you make or break your day?*
> 
> ...


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> That may be what you are doing. What the rest of us are trying to do is feel a sense of companionship and support in our less-than-perfection. And while I may not be proud of my specific shortcomings, I am proud that despite being imperfect, I keep trying. I accept that about myself and others, and have no problem discussing it. So I don't understand why, if you have a problem with the discussion, you keep coming back to it?


B/c I care about this community and this thread (and all its previous incarnations) hurts it. There is resentment, judgment, perceived judgment, alienation, complaining, and us-versus-them-ism. This thread is exactly what is complained about in this thread: a place where people list things they actually don't want to be judged for so that they can complain that they are being judged for these things by a community which is against those things. And now there will be a new tribe where people can go feel "less than" or aggrieved or whatever, and make some sort of sad kinship out of that. I'm not going to go start a tribe for people who find these threads distasteful and sad, b/c, you know, that would... um... not enhance my spiritual growth.


----------



## carepear (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> We also use toilet paper.


Um, are there really people that don't use toilet paper?


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snapdragon*
> 
> There sure is some weirdness going on here at MDC these days. How I see it- it was this AP "crunchy" board. Some people who don't agree with some of those types of things felt that this board was too rigid. And in general some people feel that some AP parents are too critical. So then people started expressing things that are not AP like for lack of better term. And elt liberated in doing so. But, now there are a whole lot of people on MDC who have different views on things than the original core theory of this forum. And now those things are infiltrating into the whole. But I think it feels unsettling. I understand why some people think people are too rigid. But this has moved beyond that- not this thread but this board, MDC. I mean- since the whole recent upheavel I now regularly see threads with long discussions involving spanking (such as- I spanked but what should I have done- which to me ( I haven't read that thread just the title) is a very uncomfortable thing to read about. Or threads about locking a toddler in her room at night. Or threads by people acting violently to theri children in some way (at least in the way I perceive it) and personally it makes me sad! I miss the moderation that happened to keep those types of things out. I don't have some conclusive point here. I understand how some peop[le want this to be a more inclusive and less exclusive type of forum. I do plenty of non perfect or whatever things, but I ultimately strive to be as gentle and loving of a parent as I can be, that is all. I mess up and make mistakes and test limits of where my comfort lies. But I am just a little sad about a certain sense of gentleness and respect for certain peaceful values that I used to find on MDC. Now I feel like people are so concerned with letting everyone have a free voice and their own opionions that there is not as strong of a place here to promote and discuss some of the original core values that brought htis forum together. There are so very many new posters- I have noticed- people with 1,2,3, or 4 posts- writing about things that are sometimes uncomfortable to me- as I mentionmed examples above. And- I don't know. *There is somehow not such a cohernet welcoming community on here right now as I used to find. I personally would like the old moderating system to return. I felt safer in that type of forum*.


me too.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snapdragon*
> 
> There are so very many new posters- I have noticed- people with 1,2,3, or 4 posts- writing about things that are sometimes uncomfortable to me- as I mentionmed examples above.


These are trolls. They are trying to get a reaction from "real" members.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> B/c I care about this community and this thread (and all its previous incarnations) hurts it. There is resentment, judgment, perceived judgment, alienation, complaining, and us-versus-them-ism. This thread is exactly what is complained about in this thread: a place where people list things they actually don't want to be judged for so that they can complain that they are being judged for these things by a community which is against those things. And now there will be a new tribe where people can go feel "less than" or aggrieved or whatever, and make some sort of sad kinship out of that. I'm not going to go start a tribe for people who find these threads distasteful and sad, b/c, you know, that would... um... not enhance my spiritual growth.


You seem to think that we are coming together because we are somehow against natural mothering. This is not the case. The *point* of this thread was not to bitch, it was to embrace our faults. Which *does* enhance my spiritual growth, thank you very much. It is *your opinion* that this type of thing creates resentment, etc--most of the people in this thread feel that there is *already* a pervasive sense of "us-versus-them-ism," and we are trying to not feel so alone in that. We are trying to make peace with the criticism we get, and laugh it off. If that's not okay, then man, I really don't belong on this board. But I guess if I go anywhere else, and finally do find that sense of camaraderie I thought I was finding at MDC, well that's just a "sad kinship," which apparently isn't worth a damn...


----------



## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

Funny, but I posted on both this thread and the one it was supposedly "against"...the you maybe crunchy if...and I felt totally fine with both. Truth is most of us are only able to be a certin amount of crunchy before our ideals conflict with our reality. So I feel fine saying both that I AM crunchy for cloth diapering, home birthing, and baby wearing, and that I am NOT crunchy for (yet get a serious guilty pleasure from) eating McD's, using a stroller, and driving an SUV.

And for the record, all humans are crunchy. Ask a tiger, shark or lion if you aren't sure. Our bones make us that way. So no amount of fast food, TV wearing or paper/plastic use is going to undo basic biology. Rejoice MDC moms -- if bitten, you crunch!


----------



## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carepear*
> 
> Um, are there really people that don't use toilet paper?


Yeah, I don't know much about it, but they use like cloths and then wash them. Instead of toilet paper. I'm sure someone here will edumecate us about it.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

I use Mr. Clean Magic Erasers obsessively. They're the one chemical product I clean with and I'd leave DH for Mr. Clean if he were real.

I love chili cheeseburgers and Oscar Meyer hot dogs.

Sugar is amazing. And so is caffeine.

My 2 year old watches tv. Some days none, some a shit ton.

She also cusses. Oops.

We hardly eat organic at all. It's just too expensive.

I hate farmer's markets. The one here is double grocery store prices.

I had one natural hospital birth and one completely accidental uc (100 total minutes in labor,midwives 45 minutes away) and I think people who have an epidural are "braver" than me. I may have shoved a kid out without drugs, but they let someone stick a needle in their back! That terrifies me.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Im sorry, but I dont like you assuming you know what was going on in my head when I started this thread. I am the OP, and my intentions were to start a thread that said,"its ok if you made mistakes in your AP/NFL journey". We shouldnt have to hide behind our choices and decisions because they don't meet some high standard of Natural Family Living because a bunch of experts say this is how you should do it, and if you don't, your doing it wrong. I can remember lurking for soooo long and being afraid to post any opinions or questions for fear of being judged or outright bashed. I watched other posters get HAMMERED on for things like letting thier baby cry in the car seat long enough to get home from the grocery store. It made me wonder if I was doing detrimental damage to my children pyshes because heck, I had done that before. Posters were likening that kind of behavoir to CIO and child abuse.

I have come to a cross roads in my MDC journey that I just dont care if I did it wrong anymore. If I dont fall into the "AP/NFL" category, so be it. But I still value what I can get from some of these boards, and damnit, I am not going to just disappear because someone thinks I should because I dont belong here. I DO BELONG HERE. Just because I dont have my own garden or work full time and my kids are in daycare does NOT mean I dont have something to offer in this community. Ever try keeping your milk supply up when you have to pump 10hours a day and you already have supply issues? It sucks. But I used this community to find ways to do that and BFed my son for almost a year. IT WAS HELL. But I took away with me some tools that I could share with other mamas here having the same issues. My son also didnt let me sleep for the first year in a half of his life. I found things that worked for getting 2-3 hours of straight sleep a night, and I could help other mamas if they needed advice in that area. So I am just as much a "Member" of this community as someone "crunchier" then me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I know that the point of this thread was to have a thread that was directly opposite of this thread:
> 
> ...


And really? What is so UN-NFL about having a baby in a hospital? I had both my kids in a hospital, totaly natural, immediate skin to skin. It was a good thing I was there with Matthew, because I started hemmoraging and would have had to be transffered to the hospital ANYWAY.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

You honestly dont understand how, even if that wouldnt bother YOU, it might bother SOMEONE ELSE to be treated that way? Internet forum or not? And perhaps in your 7 years as a member here, you just havent INTERPRETED those events in that way because you have much thicker skin then other posters.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Seriously, when does this happen? How can I be here 7 years with 6600 posts and never see this sort of stuff? *And even if it did happen, who cares? If it doesn't bother you, then why should it matter to you if it does bother someone else? Does that judgmental person have the power to ban you? Does their opinion of you make or break your day?*


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

You assumed what was going on in my head when I started this thread, also. But you actually *get* me, it would appear.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> You seem to think that we are coming together because we are somehow against natural mothering. This is not the case. *The point of this thread was not to bitch, it was to embrace our faults. * Which *does* enhance my spiritual growth, thank you very much. It is *your opinion* that this type of thing creates resentment, etc--most of the people in this thread feel that there is *already* a pervasive sense of "us-versus-them-ism," and we are trying to not feel so alone in that. We are trying to make peace with the criticism we get, and laugh it off. If that's not okay, then man, I really don't belong on this board. But I guess if I go anywhere else, and finally do find that sense of camaraderie I thought I was finding at MDC, well that's just a "sad kinship," which apparently isn't worth a damn...


----------



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> Yeah, I don't know much about it, but they use like cloths and then wash them. Instead of toilet paper. I'm sure someone here will edumecate us about it.


Search "Family Cloth" in the forums fora 

I know that, with the past moderation, threads that offered differing opinions weren't allowed. They were always flagged as "promoting" that opinion even if it was just a discussion. There was a period of time where my son had to cry to be ready for sleep. Seriously. We had to put him in the pack-n-play and let him cry for 2-3 mins before he'd come to bed and not want to play. We hated every second of it. He was about 12mo and this went on for a couple of months. I've never felt comfortable telling that story as advice because I know that a dozen people would report me for "promoting CIO" even though I don't see it that way. I've seen threads where people say "some kids just need to cry" and people jump all over them. I've seen the threads where a mom says "I was at the end of my rope and spanked. What can I do next time?" and 90% of the thread is "Don't hit your child!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" instead of the advice she needed. (I'm not advocating hitting...but I've had that thread and it's really frustrating when you ask for advice to get torn to pieces over your mistake) I couldn't breastfeed through pregnancy. My supply dipped and the pain was causing me to resent my son. I chose to gently wean him at 15mo. I don't talk about it because each time a mom asks about nursing during pregnancy someone gets on and says, "It was horribly painful and I hated it but *I did what was best*" and I do NOT agree with that. There have been threads tearing apart moms for not breastfeeding for one reason or another (there was an entire thread about making formula illegal or something awhile back...) A good friend of mine stopped breastfeeding because the mess of her oversupply set off her OCD. According to some moms on here she should have done it anyway because "breast is best." Nope, again I don't agree.

It IS liberating to be able to say "I disagree" and not be worried 8 people are going to click "report post"


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> ew, what in the world does that mean?


it means that you were the first person who came to this thread to moan and complain about it. Also stating that you wish MDC were MORE crunchy/AP/NFL whatever and it makes total sense that you had a UC which is to some people here the MOST crunchy thing you can do...This isn't the UC forum so I don't have to pretend like I think UC/UPing is anything other than a terrible idea and I am not going to. If anyone has a problem with that they can take it up via PM with me or go to the UC forum where anything but blind support for UC is discouraged and denied.

I'm not going to tell someone how they have to birth and I don't care what an individual person does but yeah as a whole I think UC is a bad bleeping idea...So sue me









Some of the attitudes here are really why other mamas who have been here for years feel like they aren't welcome. The fact that there are posters who feel like this thread should be shut down instead of just leaving it alone if they disagree with it is so much is evidence enough of why this thread is so popular. It isn't exactly a small number of posters here who are feeling this way but a few vocal posters are insisting we are all wrong and THEY have never seen shaming or whatever so it couldn't possibly be true...Once again just basically proves some of the points made in this thread...


----------



## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Anybody get me if I say: "Progress, not perfection?"

I have sat in some little rooms.

There are a lot of different ways to get to the same destination, even within a paradigm.


----------



## raksmama (Feb 20, 2005)

haven't read all the replies

We eat local and organic but do eat fast food or pizza every now and then

I BFed until ds was around 4 and coslept as well

but he is vaxed and circumcised. I have mixed feelings about it

we have always had a TV and let DS watch since he was small. I did try to limit it when he was younger to no more than and hour a day. Now he is 13 and I just have to chose my battles. He does IMO way too much video games and electronics for my taste.

what else, I am sure lots but I don't know a family who gets everything right


----------



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Another "uncrunchy" thing we do: We LOVE LOVE LOVE Whataburger. If you've been in Texas you know it's HUGE down here. And rightfully so...it's amazing.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Seriously, when does this happen? How can I be here 7 years with 6600 posts and never see this sort of stuff? And even if it did happen, who cares? If it doesn't bother you, then why should it matter to you if it does bother someone else? Does that judgmental person have the power to ban you? Does their opinion of you make or break your day?
> 
> ...


Decided I better change that post and bow out of this convo. *edited*


----------



## DirtyHippyMama (Apr 29, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I disdain BPA as much as the next dirty hippie, but if we are going to go all-natural here, what are we doing using a computer anyway?


 Why, we are all using computers made out of 100% recycled materials, of course!


----------



## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Just wanted to pop in and say I had never heard the terms "AP," "Natural Family Living," or "crunchy" (as it applies to raising children) until DS2 was born. I did a lot of the things that follow AP/NFL, but literally had never heard of names for this.


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Mama, I *reject* lists and checklists and the little box (even for "AP"); nothing "cancels it out", I don't kowtow to the mainstream--even the alternative mainstream.

OTOH, if you can't bear the thought of someone whining and moaning and fussing about something you post up on a huge internet site with unrestricted public access--maybe a message board isn't for you. No matter what you do, someone somewhere is going to find a way to be pissed about it. People are still people, and people self-identifying with "AP" or "alternative" are frankly just as thoughtless, rude, mean, angry, judgemental, and selfish as the world at large--which is to say MOST are decent folk, and you decide to listen to the loudest mouths...more fool you.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

You know, the other "I'm so crunchy because..." thread really put a bad taste in my mouth. Some of the posts were funny, but others seemed like passive-agressive attempts at claiming superiority over others ("Where is your compost bin? What? You don't compost? I thought everyone composted. How weird!") And I was glad that this thread was started.

But then it very quickly turned into people promoting things that are very clearly against Mothering's basic UA and making indirect attacks on people who do things that are considered on the "extreme" end of crunchiness. "I circ/spank/put my baby in a ff carseat and I'm proud!" or "I've been made to feel like a total outcast because I use toilet paper, tell my kid no, don't EC, birth with an attendant, etc." I mean, come on! I know that there are people in this community who will assert that birthing with an attendant is unnatural or that diapers are disrespectful to babies, but they are very, very few. Most people on Mothering have no problem with people who use sposies, don't eat organic, use strollers, birth in a hospital, etc. I think it's perfectly fine (and should have been expected) that people came on this thread to express concern that spanking or circing were being promoted. That's not okay here, no matter what the purpose of the thread is.

I've also been here for a very long time, and I have to say, this is the most tolerant and accepting I've ever seen the boards, and I'm glad to see it. Back in 2007, if someone had posted that they couldn't bring themselves to feed their nephew formula, there would have been a whole bunch of "Oh, that poor baby" responses, and maybe one person who posts tentatively that the OP should be more understanding. On the thread that was posted a couple weeks ago, the OP got torn a new one.

What this thread really reminds me of is the trolling board I (stupidly) went to recently where people were taking the most extreme posts from Mothering and pretending like they represented the whole community. Then they ranted and raved about how horrible/selfish/negligent/weird Mothering posters were. A lot of posters on this thread are really expressing veiled derision for the more "extreme" choices they choose not to make.

And Ldavis24, I'm actually really glad you finally came right out and said that you think UCing is stupid and dangerous. You've done it passive-aggressively many times on this thread (and directly on other threads). Your post is a really good example of why I'm uncomfortable with this thread and think it is NOT serving the purpose for which it was originally intended.


----------



## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

(please don't judge - this popcorn is organic)


----------



## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Is it weird that I'm not really crunchy or AP at all, and I don't feel unwelcome at MDC? (At least I feel un-crunchy and un-AP compared to most people here. I guess I'm actually pretty middle-of-the-road.) I'm actually just here for future reference, so maybe I'd be more sensitive if I already had kids.
> 
> ...


This is a good post, Cylla. Thank you.

I am sorry so many people feel pressured or put down here at MDC.

I understand there are posters on both sides of any issue who have strong feelings and strong personalities. And then there are some of us who don't enjoy debate or arguments.









There is a core set of beliefs that MDC supports and generally, anything I do or have done that is not in line with those beliefs, I do not promote on the board.

No parent is perfect.

And in my opinion parenting is a journey and it is GREAT to have other parents along the way who help.

When I was a new mom the things I did were so different from what my family and friends were doing that La Leche League and Mothering Magazine were my ONLY safe places, the only places I found support for what I was trying ( imperfectly I might add) to do. I am OLD...MDC didn't even exist when my oldest son was a baby.









This is a very big place with so many different kinds of people. But everyone who comes here agrees to abide by the UA, which apparently has been reworked since I last visited, and also reads the statement of beliefs ( or not.)

Anyway, I come here to learn and hopefully to help others learn. I am not a perfect parent, but I do love my children and I have tried to be the best mother I could be. I figure most parents are like that, just doing the best they can and learning along the way.

I also come here for fun. I've met some great people here!









Sorry. I am having trouble writing this post. It is NOISY at my house right now!


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

by many I think you mean twice right?

...I guess I am not crunchy that way, I think UC is a bad idea...

If you are uncomfortable with this thread, I don't see anyone stopping any of you who think it's terrible, from not clicking on it and posting but apparently morbid curiosity trumps moral outrage.

Charlie's Angels, once again thank you for starting this thread









Pretending MDC isn't often a judgemental crunchier than thou place is just silly. Sugarcoating judgmental comments with "gently" or "hth" or being passive aggressive does not make things less judgmental it just makes them seem that way with a casual glance.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> At least I have the nerve to come outright and say what I'm judgmental about, ie UC.


I see. So you just don't think it's okay when people judge YOUR choices. That makes sense.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Your welcome.









I am being bashed for my intentions, or because of what this thread has become. And I dont care. I know what I intended it for, and I feel Ive made some key points, as have others. Im also glad the new UA allowed it to stick around. Because I think a healthy debate is, well, healthy. I love being shown how we are all so different, but we can still be a COMMUNITY. It gives me hope for humankind as a whole.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> I see. So you just don't think it's okay when people judge YOUR choices. That makes sense.


my choices generally don't carry the risk of hurting a mother/baby with bad/misinformed advice. There have been several extremely tragic outcomes for mother and baby specifically related to the advice that those women received on these boards regarding UC. I don't believe there can be any real argument so to whether it is safer to have an attendant skilled in assisting births as opposed to going without. Obviously is always safer to have someone there in case of an emergency.


----------



## alittlesandy (Jan 20, 2010)

Here is my attempt to put a more positive spin on this thread:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1317731/how-i-have-been-humbled


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> This is interesting to me because it is very much a matter of your perspective and I would wonder why your perspective is so skewed in this regard? Why would you ever think that any of the MDC moms are coming from such a ridiculous place and then still want to get advice from them?


Skewed? That is a matter of your perspective, and I disagree. As for the second part of your post... There is plenty of insane advice on here, and also tons of fabulous advice. I take what I like and what works for me and leave the rest. Its called judgement.

FWIW dauphinette, I agree with the vast majority of what you've said but I can tell you think I'm attacking you and I'm not. And I understood the post you wrote about people confessing and not feeling bad. But my opinion is that people are "confessing" and don't feel bad. And shouldn't feel bad.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

CharliesAngel,
Im sorry if you are offend that I assume your intentions for starting this thread were to have an alternative to the other thread. You post in the other thread made me feel like you were upset that it was there, and then you started this one, so you could see how it looks like you went off to start your own "anti crunchy" thread.

I had my kid in a hospital. Im not saying there is anything non-NFL about it, Im just saying whats wrong with a mama being proud that her kid plays midwife and not doctor? NOTHING.

It seems like anytime anyone is proud of anything they do that is "crunchy" they get jumped on by all the twws ladies. JMO.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> I see. So you just don't think it's okay when people judge YOUR choices. That makes sense.


In general, I don't judge UC threads at all even though I would never have one and don't consider them to be safe. I lump it in with forward facing your kid at a year, and a lot of the free range parenting stuff I hear on here. I don't think it is particularly safe, but I also don't find it UNsafe enough to comment on or judge.

However, there have been a number of just absolutely dangerous and crazy UC threads advocating for UC even when it is blatantly and disgustingly dangerous. And those threads...yeah, I judge them, and I hope other MDC mamas do too because if a little common sense saves a baby or mama from incredible tragedy, it is worth it.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> It seems like anytime anyone is proud of anything they do that is "crunchy" they get jumped on by all the twws ladies. JMO.


I agree. Snark belongs there. It is celebrated there, and judging the monolithic judgmental prototypical MDC mom is the preferred pastime, so why not confine that sort of behavior to that site? Why not run a thread like this on TWWS? What is the point of putting it here?


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

There you go making assumptions again. pretty clear you just dont like me. Anyhoo............

This thread is NOT meant to be "anti crunchy". Thanks.

Also, I didnt even KNOW TWWS existed, or any other hate-on-mdc forums for that matter, until the giant troll thread began. I would consider myself an MDCer before a TWWSer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> CharliesAngel,
> Im sorry if you are offend that I assume your intentions for starting this thread were to have an alternative to the other thread. You post in the other thread made me feel like you were upset that it was there, and then you started this one, so you could see how it looks like you went off to start your own "anti crunchy" thread.
> ...


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> There you go making assumptions again. pretty clear you just dont like me. Anyhoo............
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, no matter what you intended in the title or OP, this topic will ALWAYS go like this. It always turns into the Flypaper of Resentment. Always. Maybe you never saw one before b/c they used to just delete them. I think that was better.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> I agree. Snark belongs there. It is celebrated there, and judging the monolithic judgmental prototypical MDC mom is the preferred pastime, so why not confine that sort of behavior to that site? Why not run a thread like this on TWWS? What is the point of putting it here?


Wait. I thought we were all supposed to let snark roll off of our backs anyway? So who cares where it is? I mean who cares what somebody on the internet says?

GAH. And I said I was done with this post!









Also, every time someone brings up TWWS it just drives more people over there. Just sayin'.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I mean who cares what somebody on the internet says?


This whole thread is about people taking offense to things other people said on the internet.


----------



## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Here are mine:

We just called to make appts to get my 8 yr old and 3 yr old vaccinations.

I like makeup. And not the all natural, organic kind.

We like Disney.

I like tv, though I try not to watch a ton of it. But still, I love my tv.

I like junk food occasionally. I think being super strict with food can lead to food/eating issues down the road. When I was on here more I was very uptight about food (along with so many other things), but I've now come to the conclusion that teaching moderation and self-discipline is more important than dictating every tiny aspect of my childrens life.

I like medicine and drs. I do use natural treatments for minor ailments, but for the big stuff? Yeah, I'm going to the dr. And I don't believe in making my kids suffer if they don't have to so I will give them medicine to help them feel better.

I think UC is irresponsible in almost all circumstances. Same with unschooling.

I love my wraps & slings, but I love my stroller also. So does my youngest.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> I agree. Snark belongs there. It is celebrated there, and judging the monolithic judgmental prototypical MDC mom is the preferred pastime, so why not confine that sort of behavior to that site? Why not run a thread like this on TWWS? What is the point of putting it here?


The point of putting it here is because many people who frequent this board find it amusing and a positive experience. Ok, you don't. So what? I get the impression Galatea that you see yourself as some kind of righteous MDC gatekeeper because of your extended time here. I'm not saying that to be snarky (because I am totally on the fence about the snark factor) but because I find your response inappropriate because of your assumption that you have some kind of veto power.

I have posted exactly eleven times on TWWS because I am still testing the waters there. I've posted many many more times here (crikey, I can't remember how many...almost 3,000?) so I consider myself a MDC mom. And I think this thread is lovely.

But then I am a rabid hater of censorship of any kind.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maeve*
> 
> I think UC is irresponsible in almost all circumstances. Same with unschooling.


This is exactly what I mean. This thread isn't about making us feel good about ourselves even though we aren't "perfect." It's about criticizing "crunchy" decisions we don't agree with (decisions that people come to Mothering to safely discuss, moreover). The more people who come on here saying, "UC is always dangerous," or "Unschooling is lazy," or "Unconditional parenting is neglectful," the less people will feel like this is a safe and accepting place to discuss their non-mainstream decisions.

ETA: I don't think snark and meanness is fun at all. And I didn't think Mothering generally supported that sort of interaction. I come here hoping to discuss things with other adults in a mature, rational manner.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> This whole thread is about people taking offense to things other people said on the internet.


Sorry I wasn't clear. That was in reference to something similar that Galatea said to me up thread.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Sorry I wasn't clear. That was in reference to something similar that Galatea said to me up thread.


Sorry I misunderstood.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I would have thought this thread was lovely too if it wasnt put up RIGHT after the "you might be crunchy if..." thread was put up. And if the OP hadnt posted negative comments in the other thread. Instead, it looks really snarky.


----------



## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. This thread isn't about making us feel good about ourselves even though we aren't "perfect." It's about criticizing "crunchy" decisions we don't agree with (decisions that people come to Mothering to safely discuss, moreover). The more people who come on here saying, "UC is always dangerous," or "Unschooling is lazy," or "Unconditional parenting is neglectful," the less people will feel like this is a safe and accepting place to discuss their non-mainstream decisions.
> 
> ETA: I don't think snark and meanness is fun at all. And I didn't think Mothering generally supported that sort of interaction. I come here hoping to discuss things with other adults in a mature, rational manner.


Well considering many people use it as a way to show how crunchy they are, I brought it up as one of the things that about me that isn't. And since it's how I feel and what I believe to be true, I stand by it. I am not trying to be snarky (though it's funny how trying to prove how crunchy someone is by ridiculing "mainstream" ideas or practices isn't considered snarky here...hmmm) or mean. Just honest.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. This thread isn't about making us feel good about ourselves even though we aren't "perfect." It's about criticizing "crunchy" decisions we don't agree with (decisions that people come to Mothering to safely discuss, moreover). The more people who come on here saying, "UC is always dangerous," or "Unschooling is lazy," or "Unconditional parenting is neglectful," the less people will feel like this is a safe and accepting place to discuss their non-mainstream decisions.
> 
> ETA: I don't think snark and meanness is fun at all. And I didn't think Mothering generally supported that sort of interaction. I come here hoping to discuss things with other adults in a mature, rational manner.


here those are opinions that are often considered not crunchy...we are allowed to voice those opinions even if others disagree with them, this isn't the support only uc forum.


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I dont see a problem with snark.  it is one of my finer qualities. Ask my husband. he loves my sense of humor.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I dont see a problem with snark.  it is one of my finer qualities. Ask my husband. *he loves my sense of humor*.


I love it too!

we are supposed to be all hugs and puppies farting rainbows and gently mama on mdc..you are breaking the rules!


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I just wanted to mention that I am not ashamed of any of my choices that aren't full-on crunchy. I had a med-free birth in a hospital and I vax and it certainly wasn't because I didn't know any better. It was because I made the best choice for me (and my bank account since the birth center didn't accept my insurance). And I find it hilarious that someone would judge me for owning a stroller.

Those choices never made me feel like I didn't belong here. I guess I"m not into great debates, so I either just read the trainwreck threads for entertainment or move on to something else. I'm glad I've been exposed to so many different ideas on here, even though I would never consider UC, EC, unschooling, or UP. And I think I'd rather stick nails in eyes than homeschool.

However, the smackdowns come from all sides and these boards have been weird lately.

I do agree that spanking, CIO, or any form of abuse should not be advocated here. We need a place to go when many of us have families who advise such things. ETA: I haven't actually seen that happening, but people are saying it's happening on other threads.


----------



## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

So let me get this straight. Saying things like, "Unschooling is always irresponsible," or "UCing is dangerous under any circumstance" are A-OK.

But if you say "Public schools often stifle creativity," or "Formula is an inferior form of nutrition," you are being elitist, judgmental, and "holier-than-thou"?

There's a BIG difference between saying, "I think public school is the best place for my kids," and, "I send my kids to public school because homeschooling is wrong," or "I feel safest birthing in a hospital," and "Anyone who doesn't give birth in a hospital is endangering their child." It's not about sugar-coating anything. It's about expressing differences in opinion in an open, respectful way and respecting the focus of this message board.

When people came on this thread to say that they thought it might be getting a bit negative and divisive, everyone was up in arms about how the whole point of this thread is camaraderie and making others feel better about making the decisions they feel are best. Now it's become a crunchy-bashing fest, and the argument is, "Why can't we have a thread talking about how other people are wrong?"


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

FTR, The bolded is still what I want for this thread, and the QUOTES is in no way what I hope this thread to become. But I cant control what people post, I can only say how I feel and hope for the best.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> When people came on this thread to say that they thought it might be getting a bit negative and divisive, everyone was up in arms about how *the whole point of this thread is camaraderie and making others feel better about making the decisions they feel are best.* Now it's become a crunchy-bashing fest, and the argument is, "Why can't we have a thread talking about how other people are wrong?"


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> So let me get this straight. Saying things like, "Unschooling is always irresponsible," or "UCing is dangerous under any circumstance" are A-OK.
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with either extreme you are representing. However I think it is important to realize that one can't expect universal agreement from others here no matter what they post. So I guess what I do take issue with is people who get up in arms because people are actually disagreeing with them. In other words I think both the person who posts that "Unschooling is always irresponsible" and the one who says "Public schools often stifle creativity" should expect others to disagree with them and not freak out when it happens. I think that is the problem I have with the idea of support only boards.

I do think that disagreement can be done in a somewhat polite way though. I am big on politeness, but can't really get behind sugarcoating.


----------



## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

If someone feels that homeschooling is wrong and that's why they send their kid to school,, I see nothing wrong with that (even though I personally homeschool). *shrug*

I still stand by what I said though, esp. on here I truely believe that UC is dangerous. People have been encouraged to do some very dangerous things that ended tragically. Some people do get caught up in having a "dream birth" and they end up listening to some very bad advice.


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

nevermind. sometimes i have a hard time making sense.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Why would it matter what anyone else thinks? If I'm confident in unschooling or unassisted childbirth (okay, not me b/c my kids go to school and were cut out of me), then someone saying either of these are a bad decision shouldn't get under my skin. Unless if course, their reasonig makes sense on some level and causes me to rethink my position. In the end, I still may decide that birthing at home alone is best *for me* -- all debate aside.

No one is threatening those who use family cloth by saying it seems gross and they prefer flushable toilet paper. To each their own, people!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> i have my 25lb 10 month old son in a Front facing car seat and i have no plans to change it


This thread is about being uncrunchy. What you're talking about is unsafe. Even the mainstream AAP is recommending rear facing until age two.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

DH and I are older parents of an almost five-year-old. We always had a sneaking suspicion that we were somewhat crunchy because of certain pre-child lifestyle choices. It really wasn't a list-making effort to come to that conclusion, we just had certain ideas about life, consumption and the environment that tipped the scale to the crunchier side. It wasn't until I came to MDC, however, that I realized that a lot of people defined or viewed themselves as crunchy parents by certain practices that they employed. No one laugh at me please, but for stuff like homeschooling, etc., my only exposure to those concepts was through what I had learned about certain religious groups. I had no idea that breastfeeding was considered crunchy, I just thought that it made sense from both a physical and emotional standpoint. Same for stuff like CIO and spanking, I recoil from the thought of putting them into practice but I don't think one needs to be all crunchy-like to understand that position.

Over the years that I've been at MDC, I've occassionally seen lists ranging from 'how crunchy are you' to rather sizable signatures containing a laundry list of crunchy attributes. These things never really bothered me, but what did bother me was the idea that maybe people focused so much on how crunchy they were that they were setting themselves up for disappointment and failure. Does that make sense? Speaking for myself, parenting has been more goal-driven than anything else. I've been entrusted with this human being, I don't know what the heck I'm doing sometimes, I try to do things which are compatable with my values (values that I had long before DD), and that there are certain times and circumstances where I must be more flexible.

That being said (and I initially came here to post my less crunchy features...LOL), I love Cheetos and DD loves Cheetos. As much as I like to toot about vegetarianism, healthy eating, etc., I gotta have my Cheetos. I wear suits to work. DD buys trashy toys out of gumball machines. My clients are corporations (yikes!). I will allow antibiotics for DD because I feel I have weighed the pros and cons sufficiently. There is more but if you saw me walking down the street, you would not peg me as crunchy. I feel like I have a crunchy heart, though. I'm just not a checklist person. I've learned a lot here, however, and I have always found that good common sense usually prevails here at MDC. Most often, the good common sense has a crunchy/natural element to it.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> This thread is about being uncrunchy. What you're talking about is unsafe. Even the mainstream AAP is recommending rear facing until age two.


Yep. Internal decapitation. Not even debatable.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> You seem to think that we are coming together because we are somehow against natural mothering. This is not the case. The *point* of this thread was not to bitch, it was to embrace our faults.


I have to admit, I still don't get why you would consider them "faults." It is not a "fault" that my kid is in public school, or that I use a stroller, or that I use sposies sometimes just because I feel like it. Who says it's a fault? Not anyone who's opinion matters to me.

There are some things that just are going to be judged on MDC. That spanking and other physical punishments are wrong, cio (not to be confused with crying in arms) is wrong, circ'ing is wrong. Breast is best. Respect your kids as human beings- that sort of thing. But those things are part of the core values of Mothering mag and MDC. Everything else...some people do, some people don't.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I have come to a cross roads in my MDC journey that I just dont care if I did it wrong anymore. If I dont fall into the "AP/NFL" category, so be it. But I still value what I can get from some of these boards, and damnit, I am not going to just disappear because someone thinks I should because I dont belong here. I DO BELONG HERE. Just because I dont have my own garden or work full time and my kids are in daycare does NOT mean I dont have something to offer in this community. Ever try keeping your milk supply up when you have to pump 10hours a day and you already have supply issues? It sucks. But I used this community to find ways to do that and BFed my son for almost a year. IT WAS HELL. But I took away with me some tools that I could share with other mamas here having the same issues.












btw, I have mad respect for any woman who does major pumping to give their baby breastmilk. For any length of time. I seriously don't know if I could have done it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viriditas*
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. This thread isn't about making us feel good about ourselves even though we aren't "perfect." It's about criticizing "crunchy" decisions we don't agree with (decisions that people come to Mothering to safely discuss, moreover). The more people who come on here saying, "UC is always dangerous," or "Unschooling is lazy," or "Unconditional parenting is neglectful," the less people will feel like this is a safe and accepting place to discuss their non-mainstream decisions.


Seems like it. There were a couple of posts back a ways that sort of implied "eewwwww! Some people don't use toilet paper? ick" (I only paid attention because it proves a point, not because it made me feel "less than" because I use cloth tp sometimes). I don't even think it's gross in any way (though I only use it for pee).


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

After having a break from this thread, I want to clarify some of the things I have said.

I am vehemently against spanking. I would never allow my son to cry it out, and if the circumcision decision had fallen to me, I would have avoided it, as I will if given the opportunity in the future. And finally, I am appalled at the idea of an infant in a forward facing carseat.

What I meant when I said that no one was breaking the user agreement was that A) no one is breaking the new user agreement, B) saying "I spank" or "my sons are circumcised" is not recommending that anyone else do it, therefore is not advocating, and C) there is no mention of carseats in any UA that I am aware of. That does not mean that I approve of the content, only that I am willing to look the other way, as no rules are being broken, so far as I can tell. The fact that a moderator made an appearance and the thread remains open seems to support my theory.

I personally feel (as someone who has never seen a past incarnation of this post) that it probably wouldn't deteriorate into a crunch-bashing session if those that don't approve would let the rest of us get it out of our systems in a humorous, lighthearted way and then return to our regularly scheduled natural programming. Saying that we are wrong for wanting to vent or open up is what creates a "versus" feeling, to me at least. :shrug:

Edited to Add: I don't consider these things faults. Many on MDC do.

And I would bet that those that reacted negatively to the toilet paper thing didn't realize that people might use an alternative to toilet paper. They probably thought these people were...uh...riding dirty, so to speak.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> I agree. Snark belongs there. It is celebrated there, and judging the monolithic judgmental prototypical MDC mom is the preferred pastime, so why not confine that sort of behavior to that site? Why not run a thread like this on TWWS? What is the point of putting it here?


What is TWWs? And if it is at all what I am thinking it is why in the world would an MDCer be on both?


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> What is TWWs? And if it is at all what I am thinking it is why in the world would an MDCer be on both?


there was a 35 page thread basically about why it is possible for people to enjoy 2 separate boards on the interwebz.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

This is sooooo holy-than-thou to think that a mother would make her birth decisions HER BIRTH DECISIONS(!!!!) based on some crunchy-ness checklist? If you are trying to be offensive for absolutely no reason then you can check that one off your meanie list, Ms.

( I didn't come on this thread tooting my own horn about having a UC, someone else said "Have you seen some of the stuff they post on the UC board?" to me and I thought it was funny because I have had a UC and I said so to them and they responded in a very snarky way "of course you have" and then I asked what they meant by that because I thought it was so childish and it has all spiraled to this. Friggin geez.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maeve*
> 
> Well considering many people use it as a way to show how crunchy they are, I brought it up as one of the things that about me that isn't. And since it's how I feel and what I believe to be true, I stand by it. I am not trying to be snarky (though it's funny how trying to prove how crunchy someone is by ridiculing "mainstream" ideas or practices isn't considered snarky here...hmmm) or mean. Just honest.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

This means nothing to me. I'm just sayin. What is TWWS? And this 35 page thread was on TWWS? MDC? What does it all mean...........? LOL!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> there was a 35 page thread basically about why it is possible for people to enjoy 2 separate boards on the interwebz.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I love it too!
> 
> we are supposed to be all hugs and *puppies farting rainbows* and gently mama on mdc..you are breaking the rules!


That really paints a picture. I think we need a new smiley for that.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> That really paints a picture. I think we need a new smiley for that.


puppies farting rainbows...sounds like sesame street to me, i don't know why


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

There have been quite a few admissions on this thread and people have been very accepting and gentle with each other for the most part. I am not ok with the attacking of any group of people (UC'ers in this case). It is not ok to do this in the parenting forum or elsewhere on the board. If this is a fun thread, let's keep it fun and please edit any personal (or certain group) attacks.

Thanks


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

LOL! Right?!?!

So there have been I guess some serious changes to the UA and now threads like this seem to be ok for the time being until someone sorts out what to do about it under the new rules......crazy right? I think the mods are kinda hands-tied until some clarification comes down from wherever that sort of thing would come down from. I know they are watching this thread for sure but can't lock it down right now for whatever reason.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riverscout*
> 
> Holy crap! I haven't been to MDC in a long time. Just came to look up some car seat info and decided to look around and found this thread. WTH happened? Why is this thread still here? Where are the mods? What was "the whole recent upheaval?" Please enlighten me.


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Don't forget a lot of people are hardcore crunchy out of necessity! We hardcore FC b/c well frankly we can't waste the $ on TP and we always use CD for the same reason (even on sleepovers).

Also if my DD would actually sit in a stroller I would use one.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> LOL! Right?!?!
> 
> So there have been I guess some serious changes to the UA and now threads like this seem to be ok for the time being until someone sorts out what to do about it under the new rules......crazy right? I think the mods are kinda hands-tied until some clarification comes down from wherever that sort of thing would come down from. I know they are watching this thread for sure but can't lock it down right now for whatever reason.


Why would this thread need to be locked?


----------



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Ive been wondering the same thing.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Why would this thread need to be locked?


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> This means nothing to me. I'm just sayin. What is TWWS? And this 35 page thread was on TWWS? MDC? What does it all mean...........? LOL!


If ya really wanna know you have to read the thread.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Why would this thread need to be locked?


Because it makes members feel unsafe?

I dunno... obviously, some people don't realize that there were plenty of posters who felt unsafe with the over-moderation and narrow-views. I mean, you could get jumped on for mentioning you were planning your c-section, never mind that it may very well be medically necessary. Or that you had to supplement, or your baby slept in a crib down the hall. You could disagree with someone (w/o name-calling) and fear a warning or alert in your inbox. But I guess it was all good b/c it made MDC a safe place.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

unsafe from what? I thought we were all supposed to NOT CARE what someone says to us online anyway? It's not like anyone has threatened anyone in any way, then I could get the "unsafe"...

I don't think you can really understand the twws thing unless you sit your but down for 3 hours and read the whole thing...I had to read so should anyone else who wants to know


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Because it makes members feel unsafe?
> 
> I dunno... obviously, some people don't realize that there were plenty of posters who felt unsafe with the over-moderation and narrow-views. I mean, you could get jumped on for mentioning you were planning your c-section, never mind that it may very well be medically necessary. Or that you had to supplement, or your baby slept in a crib down the hall. You could disagree with someone (w/o name-calling) and fear a warning or alert in your inbox. But I guess it was all good b/c it made MDC a safe place.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> unsafe from what? I thought we were all supposed to NOT CARE what someone says to us online anyway? It's not like anyone has threatened anyone in any way, then I could get the "unsafe"...
> 
> I don't think you can really understand the twws thing unless you sit your but down for 3 hours and read the whole thing...I had to read so should anyone else who wants to know










Remember, we're all protected by the big X at the top right hand corner of the screen.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Because it makes members feel unsafe?
> 
> I dunno... obviously, some people don't realize that there were plenty of posters who felt unsafe with the over-moderation and narrow-views. I mean, you could get jumped on for mentioning you were planning your c-section, never mind that it may very well be medically necessary. Or that you had to supplement, or your baby slept in a crib down the hall. You could disagree with someone (w/o name-calling) and fear a warning or alert in your inbox. But I guess it was all good b/c it made MDC a safe place.


Agreed. Speaking of unsafe... I still don't understand some of the warnings I got on the old MDC. I started only going to the SN forum for a long time to try to avoid crazy warnings. CRaaaaaaaazzzzy warnings. MDC is a lot safer with fewer mod spankings and the ability to say that if you're bleeding profusely and getting faint, you should probably cancel your plans for UC and head to the hospital.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> unsafe from what? I thought we were all supposed to NOT CARE what someone says to us online anyway? It's not like anyone has threatened anyone in any way, then I could get the "unsafe"...
> 
> I don't think you can really understand the twws thing unless you sit your but down for 3 hours and read the whole thing...I had to read so should anyone else who wants to know


Not sure! But I've seen it mentioned a few times today that MDC was no longer a "safe" place.









And yeah, I read every post in that thread, but it helped to be reading along as it unfolded vs. trying to make it through 35 pages all in one sitting.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> 
> 
> ...










True dat!


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Agreed. Speaking of unsafe... I still don't understand some of the warnings I got on the old MDC. I started only going to the SN forum for a long time to try to avoid crazy warnings. CRaaaaaaaazzzzy warnings. MDC is a lot safer with fewer mod spankings and the ability to say that if you're bleeding profusely and getting faint, you should probably cancel your plans for UC and head to the hospital.


Me too! I always felt so stressed out about the warnings too. I felt like I was back in my room in middle school waiting for my dad to get home to give me a big lecture. And it's not like you could argue the warning...that never went well.

And







to the second part.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Not sure! But I've seen it mentioned a few times today that MDC was no longer a "safe" place.
> 
> ...


I have to wonder if MDC is so skerry now that we're not being scolded at every turn how anybody makes it through the day in the real world?


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Agreed. Speaking of unsafe... I still don't understand some of the warnings I got on the old MDC. I started only going to the SN forum for a long time to try to avoid crazy warnings. CRaaaaaaaazzzzy warnings. MDC is a lot safer with fewer mod spankings and the ability to say that if you're bleeding profusely and getting faint, you should probably cancel your plans for UC and head to the hospital.


I need to stop serial posting, but yeah. It was getting kinda crazy. I was afraid I was going to be banned soon. My favorite spanking was for using the word ghetto to describe -- wait for it -- a ghetto neighborhood. I meant nothing more than it was a shady area to live. Lesson learned, though, b/c I actually understand now how it could very well be offensive, and I no longer use it IRL (ok, I'm lying here b/c I've said it to DH, but not to other people).


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> There have been quite a few admissions on this thread and people have been very accepting and gentle with each other for the most part. I am not ok with the attacking of any group of people (UC'ers in this case). It is not ok to do this in the parenting forum or elsewhere on the board. If this is a fun thread, let's keep it fun and please edit any personal (or certain group) attacks.


I just want to say that I think that the huge focus on UC is a result of the history of UC being a place where blatantly unsafe ideas were not allowed to be questioned. I, for one, have posted about UC in this thread and haven't changed my posts because I don't think they are attacks, though I can see how some other posts might be viewed that way. I'm not anti-UC at all and in general have an attitude of "to each their own" but I want to be able to say out loud that threads such as "your newborn breathing is a cultural construct" or something like that, isn't safe, without being accused of attacking UC or the poster. If the UC forum had always been a place where people could say "umm, no, your newborn should be breathing or you should seek medical intervention", there would be a lot of us who wouldn't care to single out UC. It isn't an attack, at least from me. I actually care about people who might be foolish enough to think that their newborn doesn't need to be breathing and give them a heads up before they suffer a needless tragedy.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> I need to stop serial posting, but yeah. It was getting kinda crazy. I was afraid I was going to be banned soon. My favorite spanking was for using the word ghetto to describe -- wait for it -- a ghetto neighborhood. I meant nothing more than it was a shady area to live. Lesson learned, though, b/c I actually understand now how it could very well be offensive, and I no longer use it IRL (ok, I'm lying here b/c I've said it to DH, but not to other people).


haha! Me too. We could start a whole thread called "what crazy things did the mods warn you for?" but I won't...and nobody should...because that wouldn't be very gentle. And I am totally serious, but it would be an interesting thread. I do appreciate the mods hard work and that things have loosened up here and am not trying to nit-pick. But I do have PTSD from my warnings, the majority of which were really unnecessary, and would find that thread therapuetic. I guess it is enough to know now that I wasn't the only one getting in trouble all the time!


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> haha! Me too. We could start a whole thread called "what crazy things did the mods warn you for?" but I won't...and nobody should...because that wouldn't be very gentle. And I am totally serious, but it would be an interesting thread. I do appreciate the mods hard work and that things have loosened up here and am not trying to nit-pick. But I do have PTSD from my warnings, the majority of which were really unnecessary, and would find that thread therapuetic. I guess it is enough to know now that I wasn't the only one getting in trouble all the time!


I'm at least going to go back and read mine. Just to torture myself.


----------



## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I just want to say that I think that the huge focus on UC is a result of the history of UC being a place where blatantly unsafe ideas were not allowed to be questioned. I, for one, have posted about UC in this thread and haven't changed my posts because I don't think they are attacks, though I can see how some other posts might be viewed that way. I'm not anti-UC at all and in general have an attitude of "to each their own" but I want to be able to say out loud that threads such as "your newborn breathing is a cultural construct" or something like that, isn't safe, without being accused of attacking UC or the poster. If the UC forum had always been a place where people could say "umm, no, your newborn should be breathing or you should seek medical intervention", there would be a lot of us who wouldn't care to single out UC. It isn't an attack, at least from me. I actually care about people who might be foolish enough to think that their newborn doesn't need to be breathing and give them a heads up before they suffer a needless tragedy.


Thank you. That is one of the reasons I mentioned it as well. There is a lot of dangerous advice given in that forum. Sometimes intuition just isn't enough and someone should seek medical attention, but then that wouldn't be "trusting birth".


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I like pacifiers, I vaccinate, some of the toys in my house are plastic, my kids watch some TV, and they don't always eat healthy food. Though I do generally feed them in a healthy way. I just think that being relaxed about stuff probably benefits them more than, say, avoiding plastic toys, so I dont' sweat the small stuff.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Well, for kicks and so we all know each other better, here is my list:

Mainstream - ish:

I have one child in public school

I always used disposable diapers. I use disposable pads regularly and disposable plates too.

I loved, loved loved my stroller. Baby wearing hurt my shoulders - always.

I like food of all kinds -including junk food. I try for moderation, but that does not always happen. We hit fast food about every 2 weeks.

We own 2 cars.

Not judging - but family cloth squiggs me out a bit. More power to you if it works for you - I am not trying it.

I have had 2 hospital births

I did not even try to cure cavities through food.

Now, as I am too lazy to go to the other thread:

I co slept and breast fed until 2-3ish.

I homeschool some of my kids - really loosely

I am a gal who knows my herbs

I let (gasp!) my 12 year old be vegan - not that I could stop her.

I do not vax.

I have no issues with the existence of either thread. Both have a place and could have been fun! I wish we could all sit around and sing kumbaya (my crunchy list) instead of fighting.

With regards to the current anger on MDC: I hope some good comes out of this, and that eveyone feels the cards are on the table and we can move forward in a positive manner.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Why would this thread need to be locked?


I have two things to say on this.

1. This whole 'say whatever in the world floats through your brain with zero consequences from moderation' is very new and not appreciated by all the members. This sort of thread would not have existed before the UA change.

2. Don't act like your clueless as to the direction that this thread has taken.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I>2. Don't act like your clueless as to the direction that this thread has taken.


Isn't this the same kind of snark that you're objecting to? Under the old UA, you'd be asked to edit this, and maybe even receive a warning about it.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

How is it snarky?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

You took what seemed to me to be an honest question by a PP and took issue with it by casting aspersions on the pp as to her motives for asking the question. You, essentially, accused her of playing dumb. I, also, don't know why this thread would need to be locked.


----------



## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> How is it snarky?


How is it not snarky? Dude, if you're going to snark on someone and belittle their parenting experiences, don't hide behind an air of "well, I didn't mean it that way". Just own it.


----------



## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> How is it snarky?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> 2. Don't act like your clueless...


----------



## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Why would it matter what anyone else thinks? If I'm confident in unschooling or unassisted childbirth (okay, not me b/c my kids go to school and were cut out of me), then someone saying either of these are a bad decision shouldn't get under my skin. Unless if course, their reasonig makes sense on some level and causes me to rethink my position. In the end, I still may decide that birthing at home alone is best *for me* -- all debate aside.
> 
> ...


I have not read the whole thread. But I totally agree with this. If we are confident in the choices we make for our family's it should not matter other peoples options. I think it is the people who are not 100% sure in the choices they have made. I don't pretend to be someone I am not on here and actually like this thread. I read so many of the lists people put up thinking to myself yep thats me! lol


----------



## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Don't forget a lot of people are hardcore crunchy out of necessity! We hardcore FC b/c well frankly we can't waste the $ on TP and we always use CD for the same reason (even on sleepovers).
> 
> Also if my DD would actually sit in a stroller I would use one.


I agree! We recycle because we have to pay 2$ per bag of garbage and I am cheap. FC for the same reason, cloth diapers, same reason, diva cup, same reason. Anything I can not have to waste precious limited money on is great. I don't care "how crunchy" I am.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> How is it not snarky? Dude, if you're going to snark on someone and belittle their parenting experiences, don't hide behind an air of "well, I didn't mean it that way". Just own it.


I wasn't being snarky, I'm pretty sure I was very clear in my feelings about that comment, no veiled contempt here ladies.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I wasn't being snarky, I'm pretty sure I was very clear in my feelings about that comment, no veiled contempt here ladies.


Well, if you're not even bothering to veil it, then it certainly wouldn't have passed the old UA. And I'm cool with that, really - it's good to know where people stand. But if you're arguing for more moderation and more civility, it seems pretty hypocritical to to be openly contemptuous to a poster who merely asked for clarification of something you said. (And, ftr snarky is not equal to veiled. One can be openly snarky, like you were.)


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

It's almost like the people horribly offended by this thread have no power to turn away from it and stop posting...oh wait they do, they just love the drama as much as the next person


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> It's almost like the people horribly offended by this thread have no power to turn away from it and stop posting...oh wait they do, they just love the drama as much as the next person


I am not offended by this thread, but.....

Are we supposed to turn away from threads that offend us? How is that the open discussion many posters want?

You know this is your 18th post on this thread? I think you love drama, too.

Kathy


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I am not offended by this thread, but.....
> 
> ...


Clearly I do, but I'm not bemoaning how awful this thread is. I find it interesting and entertaining.

Uh yeah if something offends you so badly isn't the general rule to turn away from it. There can be open conversation with those who disagree but many posters who are offended have said that this thread should be closed...How about just not look at it?! Then it won't even exist to you, but like I said we all love drama, I'm not denying I like it too.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

You go onto threads you know do not appeal to you and post pot-stirring comments (example - "list the ways you are crunchy" thread). I simply do not understand why you then expect posters to stay away from this one if it doesn't appeal to them.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I have two things to say on this.
> 
> ...


Dauphinette, for somebody who is pushing to bring back the old stricter moderation you sure are injecting yourself a lot in this thread (That you seem to think should be deleted). I think this thread is GREAT and I think it has been mostly civil. Some snark, yes, but we're all adults and honestly if we can't handle a little discord than why bother interacting with other people at all? Trust me, with the old rules your point 2 would have made you the new owner of a shiny new warning. Since you think it was oh-so-innocent you would've been blinking at your screen ------>







Maybe you should think about what you're fighting so hard for before you fight for it? Unless you're just here to fight for the sake of fighting...in that case, we all have our days.

I don't think all of the mods are "sitting on their hands" wishing they could delete this. Many of them are relieved to have this new lighter load.

Please explain what about this thread makes it so bad? Why should it be deleted?


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *riverscout*
> 
> nm. i need to go to the grocery store and don't have time to form a coherent thought.


I thought it was pretty coherent.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I wasn't being snarky, I'm pretty sure I was very clear in my feelings about that comment, no veiled contempt here ladies.


*snark·y/ˈsnärkē/*

Adjective: (of a person, words, or a mood) Critical; cutting; testy.

It has nothing to do with being veiled. You were being snarky. Admit it, move on. Welcome to the dark side.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Clearly I do, but I'm not bemoaning how awful this thread is. I find it interesting and entertaining.
> 
> Uh yeah if something offends you so badly isn't the general rule to turn away from it. There can be open conversation with those who disagree but many posters who are offended have said that this thread should be closed...How about just not look at it?! Then it won't even exist to you, but like I said we all love drama, I'm not denying I like it too.










Exactly! Those that are so offended that they think this thread shouldn't exist should just not click on it. Pretend it doesn't exist.


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I am not offended by this thread, but.....
> 
> ...










One point for Kathy Muggle!

If we're going to talk about moderation here, I would like to put my vote in for bringing back the rule for not questioning moderator actions. That was my favorite one

And for my non-AP stuff....

Two of my favorite things are cheap white birthday cake and Dr. Pepper (not usually together). Which pretty much means that avoiding flouride is out of the question. There are some other things as well, but they're mostly normal stuff, not necessarily mention-worthy. Now that some of my kids are getting older, I really don't think about AP ideals anymore. My kids play computer games (not AP ones) and I count that as education (very unschooly of me). See, how that cancels out?


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> *You go onto threads you know do not appeal to you and post pot-stirring comments* (example - "list the ways you are crunchy" thread). I simply do not understand why you then expect posters to stay away from this one if it doesn't appeal to them.
> 
> What is good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.


This. Exactly. And Im not saying it because I feel oh-so-hurt-and-betrayed, but Ive noticed in the past few weeks that there are A LOT of ladies posting pot stirring comments in threads that they have no interest in or nothing to add whatsoever. What happened to all the helpful, useful, positive advice some of you used to give? Now it just seems like some people are posting JUST to argue and bash people for being too crunchy.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't know there were points?

I don't think people who are so offended by this thread need to go away and be quiet but if you are pushed to the brink of your comfort zone by this thread and think it should be closed maybe do yourself a favor and just not click on it instead of demanding it not exist was my point.

Maybe what you are noticing AM is an increase in the disillusionment of this place. But a comment like that will surely be met with "why are you here then?!"....It's all just a big circle and we are having the same arguments over and over again.

I can't believe I am the only one willing to cop to enjoying a little drama. Like all of you other posters are so much better because you are all above the drama, give me a break









Jaysus, Dauphinette loves the drama so much she has taken it upon herself to PM me over and over again calling me a troll because I am not interested in pretending like I agree with and want to sing kumbaya with everyone here anymore. Face it we ALL love the drama, hence we are are participating in this awesome thread, and the thread about twws. Apparently posters of my nature are a huge threat to the specialness that is MDC.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I really feel this is an exaggeration. I actually haven't seen anybody bash anybody for being too crunchy. It seems like you can say what you want and it's not arguing but if anybody responds they're just trying to pick a fight.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> This. Exactly. And Im not saying it because I feel oh-so-hurt-and-betrayed, but Ive noticed in the past few weeks that there are A LOT of ladies posting pot stirring comments in threads that they have no interest in or nothing to add whatsoever. What happened to all the helpful, useful, positive advice some of you used to give? Now it just seems like some people are posting JUST to argue and bash people for being too crunchy.


Yes.

I think there is a difference between snark and questioning/disagreeing.

I think disagreeing just to stir the pot is not a good idea. I do get that some people really are sarcastic/like the humour of sarcasm - and it might have its place, but IMHO it is better when it is done by someone who is genuinely invested in the discussion.

I have no issue with disagreeing (except perhaps in support only posts/subforums). Consider 3 examples from this thread - UC, car seats and circing. People here have disagreed with other peoples POV on those topics and it is fine to state it as such.

Edited to add: LDavis, I am on the fence if I like drama or not. I like a certain amount of it, but there is a line where it gets to be too much. I certainly seem drawn to it, lol.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Clearly I do, but I'm not bemoaning how awful this thread is. I find it interesting and entertaining.
> 
> Uh yeah if something offends you so badly isn't the general rule to turn away from it. There can be open conversation with those who disagree but many posters who are offended have said that this thread should be closed...How about just not look at it?! Then it won't even exist to you, but like I said we all love drama, I'm not denying I like it too.


I totally disagree with pretty much everything you have had to say in this thread. I feel very strongly about the old vibe of the forum. I would love if the new rules would work to make this place better, I like being able to say in no uncertain terms how I feel about things, who wouldn't? But I don't want it to be at the cost of the integrity of MDC as a haven for NFL/AP folks to learn and commune. I will never agree that this new board is better because being attacked for the very APness or NFLness that should be the focus here is not why I come here and I will defend that pretty much to the end as vocally as I can taking full advantage of the liberties this new atmosphere affords me, why not? I can make a tiny glass of lemondade and sip it while I moan about the rest.


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I didn't know there were points?
> 
> ...


Of course there are points...didn't you get some for the rainbow farting dog?? Or was that someone else? Ok, there aren't really points and it was a failed attempt at lightening the mood. I probably shouldn't post before my 5th cup of coffee.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


we're women we all love the drama to a certain extent, I think it must be genetic


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> I really feel this is an exaggeration. I actually haven't seen anybody bash anybody for being too crunchy. It seems like you can say what you want and it's not arguing but if anybody responds they're just trying to pick a fight.


Have you checked out the "ways you are crunchy?" thread on this subforum? I thought it was bashing (shrug).

Kathy


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

You're clueless about me, my motives and my experiences. I have been on this board for several years. I had to change my SN awhile back because my email was hacked, but I have been here for a long time and I have been warned on things in the past. I am no angel, quite contrary actually. And I can handle snark as well. None of that is my problem. I don't come to MDC for SNARK. I come here for support on AP/NFL living. For inspiration. I don't want this forum to turn into what other forums are fine being. I will gladly be warned, I will gladly go back to biting my tonue for the stricter moderation if it keeps this place sacred which is how I like it. A sacred space for our best intentions and highest aspirations. MDC should = AP/NFL strictly period IMO and I will take advantage of the new UA to be as verbal about this stance as I can be. Then I will sigh a huge sigh of relief when it goes back.... Does that clear up my perspective a little?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Dauphinette, for somebody who is pushing to bring back the old stricter moderation you sure are injecting yourself a lot in this thread (That you seem to think should be deleted). I think this thread is GREAT and I think it has been mostly civil. Some snark, yes, but we're all adults and honestly if we can't handle a little discord than why bother interacting with other people at all? Trust me, with the old rules your point 2 would have made you the new owner of a shiny new warning. Since you think it was oh-so-innocent you would've been blinking at your screen ------>
> 
> ...


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Have you checked out the "ways you are crunchy?" thread on this subforum? I thought it was bashing (shrug).
> 
> Kathy


Sorry, I was referring to this thread only since it was suggested that it should be deleted.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> we're women we all love the drama to a certain extent, I think it must be genetic


This is completely OT, and relates only to me, but.....

My life is boring. That I am not engaged in real drama in real life is a good thing, I know. Maybe this is my outlet? I do not want real people to get hurt by my words, though.....

I need to get a real life that is not dramatic but interesting so I do not waste time in online debates, lol.

I am addicted to the friggin internet. (hey - is that a mainstream or crunchy value? - we do share some common values, lol!)

Back to your regularly scheduelled program.

Kathy


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> You're clueless about me, my motives and my experiences. I have been on this board for several years. I had to change my SN awhile back because my email was hacked, but I have been here for a long time and I have been warned on things in the past. I am no angel, quite contrary actually. And I can handle snark as well. None of that is my problem. I don't come to MDC for SNARK. I come here for support on AP/NFL living. For inspiration. I don't want this forum to turn into what other forums are fine being. I will gladly be warned, I will gladly go back to biting my tonue for the stricter moderation if it keeps this place sacred which is how I like it. A sacred space for our best intentions and highest aspirations. MDC should = AP/NFL strictly period IMO and I will take advantage of the new UA to be as verbal about this stance as I can be. Then I will sigh a huge sigh of relief when it goes back.... Does that clear up my perspective a little?


When it goes back? You do realize that you're in the clear minority, right? (You must since you did post on the poll thread)


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> This is completely, OT, and relates only to me, but.....
> 
> ...


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> Sorry, I was referring to this thread only since it was suggested that it should be deleted.


Gotcha.

I have no idea why we should delete this thread. I think there is some snark, some discussion, some common ground, but nothing delete worthy.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Over and over again? I don't think you neeed to start lying to prove your point babe.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Jaysus, Dauphinette loves the drama so much she has taken it upon herself to PM me over and over again calling me a troll


I called you a troll and you responded to me, after that it was just an exchange honey bun. And a brief exchange at that.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> This is completely, OT, and relates only to me, but.....
> 
> ...


I feel ya, My real life has a fair amount of drama in it though. Nothing terribly exciting but my nutty super bipolar MIL who we live with keeps things interesting.

Also Dauphinette, another long time poster mentioned this without exception almost all the really old time posters LOVE the new UA and are happy with the way things are now..


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Bolded the best part.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


And I actually don't agree that I like drama. I am just not afraid of being passionate about something I believe in and I going to say something if I feel like you're wrong.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Over and over again? I don't think you neeed to start lying to prove your point babe.
> 
> I called you a troll and you responded to me, after that it was just an exchange honey bun. And a brief exchange at that.


3 times


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Bolded the best part.
> 
> And I actually don't agree that I like drama. I am just not afraid of being passionate about something I believe in and I going to say something if I feel like you're wrong.


You don't like drama?!?! Ba ha ha! But you're calling people "honey bun"? Talk about talking out of two sides of your mouth.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> When it goes back? You do realize that you're in the clear minority, right? (You must since you did post on the poll thread)


I realize that there are a lot of trolls here now and that the poll reflects that. But I have faith that things will be sorted out, it may take awhile, but things will be sorted out.


----------



## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

enough random internet arguments for me, outside to play for the rest of the day! Woot to that!

dauphinette you came out of nowhere and threw yourself in with gusto, that is admirable! Just remember this isn't YOUR website and I think you won't be so bothered by everything thats happening.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> . I come here for support on AP/NFL living. For inspiration. I don't want this forum to turn into what other forums are fine being. I will gladly be warned, I will gladly go back to biting my tonue for the stricter moderation if it keeps this place sacred which is how I like it. *A sacred space for our best intentions and highest aspirations. MDC should = AP/NFL strictly period* IMO and I will take advantage of the new UA to be as verbal about this stance as I can be.


And, as I've said before, who gets to define this? Is there going to be some kind of test at registration? Who decides just how "strictly" things are defined? WIll there continue to be a place here for people who need to return to work and want to talk about daycare? Will people have to take all mother-led weaning questions elsewhere? Will there be anyplace to talk about how to achieve natural birth goals in a hospital setting, or how to make necessary c-sections as gentle as possible?

Or will anyone who doesn't live up to *your* best intentions and *your* definition of AP/NFL continue to be made to feel like they are not doing enough because they aren't doing every last thing on some idealized checklist? Will women continue to start posts about nightweaning 3 years olds with apologies because they "know" that they "should" practice CLW? Will women whose homebirth attempts end in transfers continue to feel like they have to skulk on for a two-line birth announcement before disappearing forever?


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> 3 times


1 time, 2 responses


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm from the south and I like pet names, sue me









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> You don't like drama?!?! Ba ha ha! But you're calling people "honey bun"? Talk about talking out of two sides of your mouth.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I have no idea what this means except the part about it not being my website and while that is true it isnt any of yours either. I am a long time member who doesn't like the new tone. Have a great day outside.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> enough random internet arguments for me, outside to play for the rest of the day! Woot to that!
> 
> dauphinette you came out of nowhere and threw yourself in with gusto, that is admirable! Just remember this isn't YOUR website and I think you won't be so bothered by everything thats happening.


----------



## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Why does MDC have to everything for any person who floats in? Thats all I'm saying at the heart of it. Why can't you get those other needs met somewhere that advocates those things? Why can't MDC remain pure to the ideals of AP & NFL? I think those idealogies have their own definitions so they don't need anyone to step out and redefine them, that work has already been done quite well.

I too have bigger things on the horizon today so on that note I think I will go brush my teeth....i'll let y'all speculate as to what with.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> And, as I've said before, who gets to define this? Is there going to be some kind of test at registration? Who decides just how "strictly" things are defined? WIll there continue to be a place here for people who need to return to work and want to talk about daycare? Will people have to take all mother-led weaning questions elsewhere? Will there be anyplace to talk about how to achieve natural birth goals in a hospital setting, or how to make necessary c-sections as gentle as possible?
> 
> Or will anyone who doesn't live up to *your* best intentions and *your* definition of AP/NFL continue to be made to feel like they are not doing enough because they aren't doing every last thing on some idealized checklist? Will women continue to start posts about nightweaning 3 years olds with apologies because they "know" that they "should" practice CLW? Will women whose homebirth attempts end in transfers continue to feel like they have to skulk on for a two-line birth announcement before disappearing forever?


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> And, as I've said before, who gets to define this? Is there going to be some kind of test at registration? Who decides just how "strictly" things are defined? WIll there continue to be a place here for people who need to return to work and want to talk about daycare? Will people have to take all mother-led weaning questions elsewhere? Will there be anyplace to talk about how to achieve natural birth goals in a hospital setting, or how to make necessary c-sections as gentle as possible?
> 
> Or will anyone who doesn't live up to *your* best intentions and *your* definition of AP/NFL continue to be made to feel like they are not doing enough because they aren't doing every last thing on some idealized checklist? Will women continue to start posts about nightweaning 3 years olds with apologies because they "know" that they "should" practice CLW? Will women whose homebirth attempts end in transfers continue to feel like they have to skulk on for a two-line birth announcement before disappearing forever?


I gave your post a thumbs up, and I meant it, but maybe we can have both?

A place to go to for AP/NFL information and discussion, but also a place that recognises:

a) sometimes people cannot have the AP/NFL life they dreamed of.

b) some aspects of AP/NFL do not appeal to everyone and as long as it is not harming their children ( and harm does not include: oh that poor baby is in a stroller!) , that is absolutely fine


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Why does MDC have to everything for any person who floats in? Thats all I'm saying at the heart of it. Why can't you get those other needs met somewhere that advocates those things? Why can't MDC remain pure to the ideals of AP & NFL? I think those idealogies have their own definitions so they don't need anyone to step out and redefine them, that work has already been done quite well.
> 
> I too have bigger things on the horizon today so on that note I think I will go brush my teeth....i'll let y'all speculate as to what with.


People are whole beings. I do not think MDC should become completely mainstream, but acknowledge the whole person. I do not think MDC is only meant to inspire - it is meant to be a community - and I should feel comfortable posting about my crunchy and not-so-crunchy experiences.

I think one practical solution might be more "Support only" threads. If the Op decides it is support only because that is what the OP needs then that should be honoured. If the OP is game for debate, then leave off the "support only". Sometimes I really only want to hear answers in the parameters outlined, sometimes I really do want discussion.


----------



## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> And, as I've said before, who gets to define this? Is there going to be some kind of test at registration? Who decides just how "strictly" things are defined? WIll there continue to be a place here for people who need to return to work and want to talk about daycare? Will people have to take all mother-led weaning questions elsewhere? Will there be anyplace to talk about how to achieve natural birth goals in a hospital setting, or how to make necessary c-sections as gentle as possible?
> 
> Or will anyone who doesn't live up to *your* best intentions and *your* definition of AP/NFL continue to be made to feel like they are not doing enough because they aren't doing every last thing on some idealized checklist? Will women continue to start posts about nightweaning 3 years olds with apologies because they "know" that they "should" practice CLW? Will women whose homebirth attempts end in transfers continue to feel like they have to skulk on for a two-line birth announcement before disappearing forever?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Why does MDC have to everything for any person who floats in? Thats all I'm saying at the heart of it. Why can't you get those other needs met somewhere that advocates those things? Why can't MDC remain pure to the ideals of AP & NFL? I think those idealogies have their own definitions so they don't need anyone to step out and redefine them, that work has already been done quite well.
> 
> I too have bigger things on the horizon today so on that note I think I will go brush my teeth....i'll let y'all speculate as to what with.


Because when you act all totalitarian about the ideals, your community is more like a cult than a healthy community? And 99% of the member feel like frauds in some way? And it encourages really silly "us vs them" mentalities over really petty things?


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Because when you act all totalitarian about the ideals, your community is more like a cult than a healthy community? And 99% of the member feel like frauds in some way? And it encourages really silly "us vs them" mentalities over really petty things?


Yes! Thank you!

Seeking purity in anything is not healthy nor is it conductive to real life. Plus on a personal level it makes me







.

@Kathymuggle: I think if a poster asks for support only that should be kept in mind when responding. But I have also seen many threads like that in the past where the poster just wants people to agree with their (often very disturbing and damaging) choices. So it has to be the call of the respondant I think. I for one am not cool with telling someone it is ok to stay with her abusive husband "for the kids" even though they request support only to do that yk?


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> @Kathymuggle: I think if a poster asks for support only that should be kept in mind when responding. But I have also seen many threads like that in the past where the poster just wants people to agree with their (often very disturbing and damaging) choices. *So it has to be the call of the respondant I think. I for one am not cool with telling someone it is ok to stay with her abusive husband "for the kids" even though they request support only to do that yk?*


Yes. Perhaps hard and fast rules are not the answer - and letting posters decide will ultimately be for the best.

It would be nice if every thread did not dissolve into arguements, though, between groups of people. Maybe it will work itself out over time.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Why does MDC have to everything for any person who floats in? Thats all I'm saying at the heart of it. Why can't you get those other needs met somewhere that advocates those things? Why can't MDC remain pure to the ideals of AP & NFL? I think those idealogies have their own definitions so they don't need anyone to step out and redefine them, that work has already been done quite well.
> 
> I too have bigger things on the horizon today so on that note I think I will go brush my teeth....i'll let y'all speculate as to what with.


So you're saying that ONLY people who buy the whole package as you define it should be here? That even if on a mainstream board there's no place for support for mother-led weaning at 3 years old, a woman who does not want to wait until her child weans themself should not bother to join this community?

AP and NFL have their own definitions? Who is defining them? Dr. Sears? Peggy? You?

The definitions out there are pretty basic, and open to wide variations in interpretation. Is it more "natural" to subsist on coconut oil and pork fat or to live on almonds and brown rice? Is it more "natural" to wean at the onset of a new pregnancy or to tandem? Is it more "natural" to want a birth assistant or to want to be left alone? Are you more 'attached' if you carry your baby on your back or push her in a stroller facing you so she can see your face at all times? Does "gentle discipline" mean no hitting, or does it mean never allowing a child to experience disappointment?

When do we have the referendum on what all these terms mean and what practices are required in order to consider yourself "natural" or "attached" or "gentle?


----------



## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> Why does MDC have to everything for any person who floats in? Thats all I'm saying at the heart of it. Why can't you get those other needs met somewhere that advocates those things? Why can't MDC remain pure to the ideals of AP & NFL? I think those idealogies have their own definitions so they don't need anyone to step out and redefine them, that work has already been done quite well.
> 
> I too have bigger things on the horizon today so on that note I think I will go brush my teeth....i'll let y'all speculate as to what with.


You are really into in-group out-group mentality aren't you? Here is the deal: *I* get to define if I belong here. I do it by deciding if I feel comfy here, not by listing my choices and comparing them to some, apparently pre-existing AP checklist from on high. *You* don't get a vote on who hangs out at MDC, nor should you be striving for such a disturbing selectionism IMO.

I don't see how MDC is straying from their ideals by welcoming all people who need community from a great group of peeps. As has been stated over and over in this discussion, people come clueless about what AP is, they stay for the community, and they LEARN. Saying you only want people here with some sort of pre-existing crunch pedigree is anathema to the whole point of this community. Plus it shows a suprising lack of tolerance and patience with things outside of your little box.


----------



## SuburbanHippie (Aug 29, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> So you're saying that ONLY people who buy the whole package as you define it should be here? That even if on a mainstream board there's no place for support for mother-led weaning at 3 years old, a woman who does not want to wait until her child weans themself should not bother to join this community?
> 
> ...












That is exactly what I was referring to on the Questions & Suggestions subforum. Who defines what is AP & NFL anyway? You can never live up to the Supreme Mother Nature Goddess of MDC so exactly who is going to be posting here? The answer: NO ONE.


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

The whole "why are you here!?!?" or "there are tons of other places on the web for your mainstream kind" comments are super annoying. Do you run MDC? Everyone is welcome here, short of pervs, spambots, blatant child abusers, and the like. If MDC is not as *crunch* *crunch* as you prefer it to be, why don't you, yourself, go find a new Internet home? Surely there are plenty of to the extreme NFL/AP places to hang out on the World Wide Web.

That's not nice, I know, but you see, it goes both ways. MDC can't be all encompassing and welcoming to a variety of people - some who aren't even parents - if members all have to meet some pre-defined mold or approval to be accepted here. Short of the infamous Kween Krunch (that was entertaining and infuriating at the same time), no one is the perfect natural family living persona, so as long as we all hold similar ideals and all want to be here, who the heck cares?


----------



## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I should have read the last page before posting, b/c you said it all better than I did. Seriously, we can all co-exist here regardless of if we SAH, work, have 10 babies or none, use toilet paper or $hit outside. Tolerance, people, and once you open your mind a bit, you might just learn something new.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> You are really into in-group out-group mentality aren't you? Here is the deal: *I* get to define if I belong here. I do it by deciding if I feel comfy here, not by listing my choices and comparing them to some, apparently pre-existing AP checklist from on high. *You* don't get a vote on who hangs out at MDC, nor should you be striving for such a disturbing selectionism IMO.
> 
> I don't see how MDC is straying from their ideals by welcoming all people who need community from a great group of peeps. As has been stated over and over in this discussion, people come clueless about what AP is, they stay for the community, and they LEARN. Saying you only want people here with some sort of pre-existing crunch pedigree is anathema to the whole point of this community. Plus it shows a suprising lack of tolerance and patience with things outside of your little box.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> MDC can't be all encompassing and welcoming to a variety of people - some who aren't even parents - if members all have to meet some pre-defined mold or approval to be accepted here. Short of the infamous Kween Krunch (that was entertaining and infuriating at the same time), no one is the perfect natural family living persona, so as long as we all hold similar ideals and all want to be here, who the heck cares?


I totally agree. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have learned a lot here at MDC. I came here with certain ideals and/or hunches about how I wanted to parent and I didn't really have any role models IRL. Much of what I learned about AP, I learned here. I didn't come to MDC with any practical skills on the subject. Just a set of ideals with the desire to put them to use the best way that I could.

One of the specific things that I appreciate about MDC is that I have found a community where working moms are welcome. It is not so much an issue now since DD is older, but there was a time where I felt that I could fail at this AP parenting thing simply because I worked. Rather, lots of MDC parents gave me great advice and I appreciate that MDC is inclusive in that respect. My day-to-day reality would prevent me from what some parents consider THE IDEAL. But I don't care, MDC has helped me a be a better parent...to step back and reconsider prior positions.


----------



## alittlesandy (Jan 20, 2010)

Yeah, I've had it with "Take your not-so-pure AP-ish approach to a more mainstream forum." I can't get good advice in those forums! Mothering is wonderful. I am deeply in love with the community here, including the people who UC and never let a speck of plastic in their house. God bless people who are that committed! I am floored by how extreme some people are, in a good way! I ADMIRE YOU!!! I AM JEALOUS OF YOU!!!









However, I have never, in all my life, EVER fit in. I don't fit in completely here, and I certainly don't fit in at the more mainstream forums.

I need a safe place to talk about how to pump and bottle feed at 4 weeks when I HAVE to go back to work at 5 weeks, instead of being shut down with a single comment, "Mama, you should never offer a bottle before six weeks." I can't get help with this in a mainstream forum.

I want advice about wraps AND strollers. Cosleeping AND cribs.

I don't long for the "old days" of Mothering, because I am deeply relieved to know there are others like me. EVERYONE in my local mom's group had a homebirth, shunned bottles, still cosleeps, and don't own cribs or strollers. I think, WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME? WHAT WENT WRONG???









Thank god these boards have not remained "pure to the ideals of AP/NFL" because otherwise I would be LOST...


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

The thing I keep coming back to that I just can't understand is why so many people think that just because some of us have opinions about things that others consider too crunchy is in any way us looking down on them for not feeling the same way. It seems like a lot of people are getting their panties in a wad because people have beliefs that MDC's missions statement promotes.
For example:

I love to wear my baby, but I have a stroller and see no reason for people not to use a stroller.
I really think natural child birth is the way to go, but I understand that there are a lot things that get in the way and reasons not to do that. While I do think that intervention has a domino effect that can lead to an unwanted c-section, I also understand that there are a lot of other causes and reasons for sections.
I co sleep, but I have no problem with people having cribs.
I am strongly against circ, but I think whats done is done and there is no reason to make anyone feel bad for it.
I would love it if everyone could breastfeed, but I know its not possible. I wish the education about breastfeeding was better, and more supportive. Ive known a lot of women who have stopped after a few days because their doctor recommended it. I know some of the best education comes from the hospital lactation consultants.
I dont like baby food. I think its gross, and since we arent out a lot, we dont use it. I dont think twice when I see someone feeding their kid from a jar.
I use cloth diapers full time. I love them. I think they are cute. Ive saved a ton of money, but I dont have any judgment about using sposies. Ive used them before, and I will again.

If I put all of this in my signature, Id be a "brand whore" (yep, just cant move past that. It was sooo presumptuous) even though these are my belifes. I never knew what AP was before I found this website. I just planned on doing these things because its what I felt was right and because I was (and still am) poor and it saves money.

I have big problems with abuse, neglect, huge safety issues, corporations, classism, racism, sizeism, sexism, homophobia, environmental destruction, and excessive capitalism. I try to keep my negative comments towards people about these issues to a minimum because most of them dont really relate to parenting, and this is a parenting website. I have other outlets for being upset about the state of the world as a whole.

Everyone has to do what is right for them and their family, hopefully with respect for the outside world while they are doing it.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

I want to respond to a lot of this, but too much to do quotes...


For everyone that says something like, "I don't understand why people think natural mamas look down on less-natural mamas," you are either not one of the ones doing it, or you are doing it a lot, possibly passive aggressively. I won't decide that for you, but most of you fit into column A. We just all tend to remember the fields of clover a lot less vividly than the one sticker in our foot.
I agree that discussion and/or disagreement is healthy, but that it should only come from people who can actually contribute to the conversation. This applies to everyone on every subject. Meaning, if you *support* UC, you should be allowed to respectfully disagree on those boards. If you *support* gentle discipline, you should be allowed to discuss different approaches on those boards. And in threads like this one--and the "you know you're crunchy if" one--*people who come in just to criticize the thread should probably think twice and just turn around.* If you don't think the thread belongs, take it up with a moderator. If you can contribute to the thread, in a healthy, respectful way, *GREAT!* But if you come in saying something like, "This thread is crap, what's wrong with you people? This ain't TheNest!" or "Way to be an exclusive cult, mamas!" then you fit into column B above.
As people have said in other threads, threads like this one are going to happen. There is going to be some turmoil as everyone adjusts to the new UA, and as the UA evolves, as the poll shows me it might not be quite done cooking yet. That's fine. But perhaps complaints about the very nature of the board belong in the Questions and Suggestions forum or a moderator's inbox, with references made back to these threads, instead of interjected just to disturb the flow of an otherwise peaceful and fun thread.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm posting this here, but really it's a thought that's been running through my mind ever since the huge trolls thread, and through several others running alongside this thread...

I get the whole backlash against being made to feel not crunchy enough or too crunchy. When DD grew out of her little baby bucket carseat, the research I did on MDC made me feel like I NEEDED to buy some super expensive Britax (the one with the cow cover). And because we are a 2 car family (we-gasp-both work outside the home and both contribute to the daycare pick ups and drop offs) we would actually need to buy TWO of these carseats. I honestly cried at one point because I got the impression that I was a bad mom for not being able to afford this carseat for my child.

However- and maybe it's because I've grown as a parent, or maybe it's just a natural result from reading more and more on MDC, but I've come to realize that we (MDC posters) are not experts, or even people who have our own lives together. And, quite honestly, a lot of people who I have come to recognize from multiple posts, aren't people who I would take any advice from in real life. Does that make sense? That I can read something that a poster writes, find them quite intelligent- someone whose opinions I should hold in high regard- but then I read more and more of what that poster writes, and then something comes out that is just way opposite of what I find intelligent or whatever. And then it just hits you: why on Earth am I listening to this woman's opinions on working mothers (fill in the blank with your own topic) when she has admitted that she kicks her dog 10 times a day and eats moldy hot dogs (just as an entirely fictional example).

I know I'm not getting my point across clearly- I guess I'm just trying to say that before you take offense to anything someone says about your own decisions/choices/life, please stop and remember that chances are this person has their own crazy baggage that prevents them from really being in a position to judge you. Put on your filter, take what you want to hear, what sounds reasonable to you, and dismiss the rest as just opinions from people whose opinions don't matter to you. Sorry for the awkward phrasing.

And, back to the original topic, I think the "what makes you crunchy?" and "what makes you un-crunchy?" threads should be combined. Because honestly, there is no one in this world that is all one or all the other. For me:

- hospital birth, with epidural attended by a CNM.

- breastfed to 2.5 years

- pumped twice a day at work to provide bottled milk to daycare, other than that, strictly boob

- work 10 months a year outside the home (in a public school, no less)

- that means DD attends daycare 10 months a year

- fully vaxed, slightly delayed schedule

- vegetarian, mostly organic

- started out cloth diapering, switched to disposables around 1 year

- lots of natural "Waldorf-style" toys

- lots of the other kinds of toys too

- always coslept, although what that looks like now is DD hangs out in my bed for stories and cuddles, then flops down in the little bed pushed up to the big bed when she's ready to sleep- and after the dust settles from our upcoming move, we're going to try to get her in her own room, at least part time

- wore her in slings and the Ergo a TON, until she didn't want to anymore

- oh and as for as the "green" factor I am actually pretty big into all of that, but I've just naturally been like that since I was a little girl, so I don't really give it much thought

I'm sure there's more, but this has already turned into my longest post ever


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

I always loved the phrase "save the drama for yo' mama." Just saying.

I am curious if anyone knows the origins of the phrase "own it," in reference to one's feelings. I am over thirty by a lot, and have never known anyone my age who uses the phrase...seems to be popular among the under-thirty or so crowd. Is it from a t.v. show or movie or something?

This thread is, by turns, funny and sad, and I really should be doing laundry instead of reading it.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *riverscout*
> 
> The title of this thread should now be changed to "beating a dead horse"


This is a *perfect* example of a completely unnecessary, off-topic, unconstructive post. Thank you for posting it directly below my post for clear illustration of my point.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> The thing I keep coming back to that I just can't understand is why so many people think that just because some of us have opinions about things that others consider too crunchy is in any way us looking down on them for not feeling the same way. It seems like a lot of people are getting their panties in a wad because people have beliefs that MDC's missions statement promotes.


Yes, this. All of your post, really. But especially this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I want to respond to a lot of this, but too much to do quotes...
> 
> ...


I was thinking about this yesterday. Very few (maybe?) people feel judged if a random person around them mentions that their baby sleeps in a crib. But if someone mentions that their baby sleeps in bed with them, there is almost this automatic perceived judgement. Maybe they were genuinely judged by someone previously. But the assumption that I am judging you (not you specifically. General "you") because I co-sleep just perpetuates the myth that all AP'er/crunchy people are judgemental. Because if you assume that every crunchy person is judging you, then you turn it into a fact in your head, whether it's true or not.

I don't care if you co-sleep or not. I care if you cio (not that I would argue with someone irl about it). But where your baby sleeps doesn't matter to me. I'm sure the same is true with a lot of co-sleepers.

Quote:


> I agree that discussion and/or disagreement is healthy, but that it should only come from people who can actually contribute to the conversation. This applies to everyone on every subject. Meaning, if you *support* UC, you should be allowed to respectfully disagree on those boards. If you *support* gentle discipline, you should be allowed to discuss different approaches on those boards. And in threads like this one--and the "you know you're crunchy if" one--*people who come in just to criticize the thread should probably think twice and just turn around.* If you don't think the thread belongs, take it up with a moderator. If you can contribute to the thread, in a healthy, respectful way, *GREAT!* But if you come in saying something like, "This thread is crap, what's wrong with you people? This ain't TheNest!" or "Way to be an exclusive cult, mamas!" then you fit into column B above.


I'm not going to think twice and turn around because if MDC is going to allow people to say they spank, or cio (thus normalizing those things) or forward face their babies (which isn't in the UA at all, but is incredibly unsafe), then I am going to speak out and say that NO those things are not ok, and they are not (or should not be) "normal" on MDC. GD is my passion. Spanking is socially acceptable irl. I'm not going to sit idly by and let it slowly become normalized on MDC.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> I was thinking about this yesterday. Very few (maybe?) people feel judged if a random person around them mentions that their baby sleeps in a crib. But if someone mentions that their baby sleeps in bed with them, there is almost this automatic perceived judgement. Maybe they were genuinely judged by someone previously. But the assumption that I am judging you (not you specifically. General "you") because I co-sleep just perpetuates the myth that all AP'er/crunchy people are judgemental. Because if you assume that every crunchy person is judging you, then you turn it into a fact in your head, whether it's true or not.
> 
> ...


I agree about perceived judgments. Honestly, I think we all "judge" each other's choices--it is a vital part of parenting decisions. I observe someone yelling at their kid, and I judge that to be wrong for me and my son. I observe someone cloth-diapering, and judge that as awesome, and assimilate it. *I think saying any choice is better than any other choice is not just judging--it's shaming.* And that's what I have a problem with.

I agree with you on spanking and CIO, too. Decisions like that are my only exceptions to the above bolded rule. If you are harming your child, I will not only judge you, I will act on those judgments, by trying to stop you.

And I agree that CIO and spanking, etc, shouldn't be normalized--anywhere. And the carseat thing isn't normalized--it's illegal. But I feel that the place to contest things like that being on the boards is in threads like the poll thread. Telling the spanking mama and the carseat mama, etc, that they are bad bad mamas in this thread isn't going to do anything but derail this thread.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I agree about perceived judgments. Honestly, I think we all "judge" each other's choices--it is a vital part of parenting decisions. I observe someone yelling at their kid, and I judge that to be wrong for me and my son. I observe someone cloth-diapering, and judge that as awesome, and assimilate it. *I think saying any choice is better than any other choice is not just judging--it's shaming.* And that's what I have a problem with.
> 
> ...


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> I'm posting this here, but really it's a thought that's been running through my mind ever since the huge trolls thread, and through several others running alongside this thread...
> 
> ...


You're making total sense to me. In the beginning, I felt like a horrible mother over certain things (not being able to afford the expensive car seat, not being able to afford wooden toys or playsilks, not wanting to homeschool, and stuff like that). But then I just had to say, this is not the hill I'm going to die on. Everyone has their "hill" and areas of sensitivity. I can't take on everyone's hill, I'd go crazy. I am passionate about breastfeeding. That is my hill. Classism/elitism is my area of extreme sensitivity. So a lot of what I post comes through those filters.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I didn't say all judging is shaming. I am saying that making decisions for yourself involves judging, and that is okay. I would judge a friend for doing that, too. I feel that it is almost always wrong to say that just because one parenting decision is right for you makes its counter wrong for everyone else (IE, cloth diapering is right for me, so disposables are wrong across the board)--this is turning your opinion into shaming someone else for their opinion. And my only exception to that is decisions that hurt the child, which I feel are wrong on a moral level. Does that make more sense?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I agree with you. I didn't say all judging is shaming. I am saying that making decisions for yourself involves judging, and that is okay. I would judge a friend for doing that, too. I feel that it is almost always wrong to say that just because one parenting decision is right for you makes its counter wrong for everyone else (IE, cloth diapering is right for me, so disposables are wrong across the board)--this is turning your opinion into shaming someone else for their opinion. And my only exception to that is decisions that hurt the child, which I feel are wrong on a moral level. Does that make more sense?


Yep. Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the first time.


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## jezebelle (Feb 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


No worries.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamaboss*
> 
> Oh, and *I can't stand the word "crunchy" as an adjective.*


Say what? Crunchy is an adjective. Do you mean just in relation to parenting or something?


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Back to the original topic, because now I feel the urge to share.







- I'm going to combine both my crunchy and non crunchy attributes here because they all relate.

I had a natural birth at a birth center with midwives but if I had to go get a CS I would've accepted it because by then it would've likely been warranted.
I vaccinate - on a delayed schedule. I generally support modern medicine when used as directed. I do my research.
I work and DS goes to daycare (gasp!)
I eat out too much (although not fast food) because I'm often too tired to cook, and I eat meat a lot. But when we shop we choose to buy organic and local (I'm thankful for being able to afford it because of the point above)
I have gone through 200 000 kleenex tissues this year because of constant colds and considering buying their stock (just kidding), but we cloth diaper unless we're on a trip, I mostly replaced paper towels with cloth prefolds, and I am considering trying family cloth.
I cosleep because I'm lazy and I love it.
I worked really hard to breastfeed DS despite flat nipples, started with a nipple shield, kept trying without, went through periods of terrible pain, threw the shield away at one month in, and still going strong at 17 months. He never had any formula.
I did baby led solids because again, I'm lazy.
DS is intact.
DS has never been left to CIO. I will not spank and so far I haven't even had an urge to yell (it's still early though, we'll see how strong I am).
I spent too much money on baby carriers (I probably could have bought a stroller SUV with the money), I have only 1 crappy stroller and I always feel awkward using it so I never do. I love our wagon though and so do most of the kids in the neighborhood (sometimes it feels like a crowded subway when I'm out pulling it).


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## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

We selective/delay vax, eat mostly organic/grow our own foods in summer. Try to be GD, use natural cleaners in the home, try to buy locally, breastfeed lots, coslept and bedshared. I also yell at times, do time outs, love to shop and buy clothes love to go out and eat expensive good food, DS is circ'd(wouldn't have if I had found MDC earlier) goes to public school, I WOH, let the kids eat sugar, have some screen time, etc. I had one birth with an epidural, one without medication. If ya want an epi go for it! I don't believe in judging other's parenting choices either if at all possible too!! It's all a balance right


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## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> Say what? Crunchy is an adjective. Do you mean just in relation to parenting or something?


Oh I feel like a moron! Ha, yes, I mean crunchy in relation to describing parenting/lifestyle. Thanks!


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

You ladies are not understanding me at all. I know I am really bad at this medium at times I find it sooo frustrating. I am not saying that anyone doesn;t have a place here, I am saying that certain topics, attitudes and behaviors IMO don't belong here because it takes away from the forum. I mustn't be the only one who ever thought that or thinks that because the forum used to be run that way and I liked it that way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> I should have read the last page before posting, b/c you said it all better than I did. Seriously, we can all co-exist here regardless of if we SAH, work, have 10 babies or none, use toilet paper or $hit outside. Tolerance, people, and once you open your mind a bit, you might just learn something new.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> if you *support* UC, you should be allowed to respectfully disagree on those boards. If you *support* gentle discipline, you should be allowed to discuss different approaches on those boards. And in threads like this one--and the "you know you're crunchy if" one--*people who come in just to criticize the thread should probably think twice and just turn around.* If you don't think the thread belongs, take it up with a moderator. If you can contribute to the thread, in a healthy, respectful way, *GREAT!* But if you come in saying something like, "This thread is crap, what's wrong with you people? This ain't TheNest!" or "Way to be an exclusive cult, mamas!" then you fit into column B above.
> 
> *This is soooooo where I am coming from, too.*


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jezebelle*
> 
> I agree about perceived judgments. Honestly, I think we all "judge" each other's choices--it is a vital part of parenting decisions. I observe someone yelling at their kid, and I judge that to be wrong for me and my son. I observe someone cloth-diapering, and judge that as awesome, and assimilate it. *I think saying any choice is better than any other choice is not just judging--it's shaming.* And that's what I have a problem with.
> 
> ...


Funny that we agree on so much, but have argued semantics in more threads than this one! lol.  I always say that the only things I really judge about are human rights issues (I include spanking in that. Including race issues, gay issues, sex equality, stuff like that). So in that, it seems that we pretty much agree- the only parenting things I can think of that I really judge and say that one way is better than another, is spanking/other non-gd discipline and cio (I don't think I'm missing anything). And proper car seat usage.

But I disagree (and perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree) that on MDC that there are threads where we (general we) should let the defending of spanking and cio go. (that was really wordy and wierd, but I have to hurry and clean before bedtime).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> You ladies are not understanding me at all. I know I am really bad at this medium at times I find it sooo frustrating. I am not saying that anyone doesn;t have a place here, I am saying that certain topics, attitudes and behaviors IMO don't belong here because it takes away from the forum. I mustn't be the only one who ever thought that or thinks that because the forum used to be run that way and I liked it that way.


Yes, it's hard to convey tone on message boards. I actually like it when people call me out on things, because in the past when I've been called out, it was totally a misunderstanding and I worded things very wrong. I didn't mean it the way it sounded at all, and her calling me out let me explain and reword, and it was all good.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## jenniferlynne (Jun 17, 2006)

I've been around MDC for years now but haven't been here much in the last several months, so I was surprised to see this thread allowed to continue for so long. BUT I have to say, I'm really glad it has and I, for one, am really happy with the recent changes. In the past I've been turned off by the judgmental, "crunchier-than-thou" tone of many threads, and it made me cringe, it deeply saddened me, to see mamas who were genuinely seeking advice be flamed for their choices. I've learned so much from MDC and especially when my kids were babies, I came here for advice frequently and I can honestly say that *MDC has significantly shaped my parenting choices.* My DS is circed but had I discovered MDC earlier, he wouldn't have been. I also used sposies on him, but because of MDC, I CDed my DD and will any subsequent babies as well. I think I'm a gentler, more loving mother because of this community, and *I wonder how many other mamas might've had the same experience had they been treated in a more supportive, less judgmental way.* I wish there was a way for us to have open discussions, to support, encourage and educate one another without attacking and judging, to have conversations tempered with tolerance, kindness and respect, rather than blindly pushing an agenda of perfect "APness." Obviously, most posters are not doing that but I did sometimes get that feeling from a highly vocal minority.

My list:

* Junk food. My kids eat great. Me? Not so much, and I've gotten more relaxed with their diets as they get older

* I drive way too much. My car is small and fuel-efficient but I use it way more than I'd like.

* I used to compost but stopped. I could never get the balance right and got tired of the stinkiness.

* DD was CDed from birth but wears sposie pull-ups occasionally at night now.

* DS is circed (see above). I feel terrible about it and wish I could change it but what's done is done. 

* I confess that I can't imagine having an UC, and though I've made the switch to cloth pads, I will never do FC. I don't judge others who make these choices, but they are definitely not for me.

* I'm not as gentle with discipline as I'd like to be. I'm working on it...

The discipline issue is one of the reasons I came back to MDC today, to visit the GD boards for inspiration and encouragement. I find myself coming back here occasionally for an AP "tune-up," so to speak, so I don't necessarily want it to become more mainstream around here, but I do think less judgement and more tolerance would be a nice change!


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Just posted in the crunchy thread. Here's the non-crunchy stuff.

1. Live in suburbia. Hate it, but live there.

2. Use disposable mama pads.

3. Skeptical of a lot of "natural" remedies (but skeptical of a lot of allopathic ones, too!)

4. Kids have some plastic, battery-powered, MIC toys. (I could blame MIL for buying them, but I also could've gotten rid of them a long time ago!)

Here's some stuff that I do and that people here have listed as "non-crunchy." I disagree.

1. Buy commercially grown produce (not being able to afford it doesn't make you "non-crunchy." It just makes you not able to afford it.







)

2. Selective vaccination (doesn't make you "non-crunchy"; it indicates that you question what the medical establishment tells you, which is indeed quite crunchy!)


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Hm mm

What is mainstream? What is crunchy? Even if I make my own placenta dumplings, grow my own organic homeopathic herbs and worship the goddess everyday I will not be considered crunchy enough because I believe that quiet a few Ap practice would simply destroy my family. Even if I voted GOP, were a business suit everyday and eat at Pizza hut once a week, I would still not be mainstream . simply by virtue of being poly.

I had hospital epidural birth and I am happy about it and would do it again. I breastfed both babies. We used cotton diapers most of the time. I baby-wore until they were too heavy. We vaccinated with everything but on a modified schedule. We cirked because I am Jewish. They slept in my room but not in my bed until 9 months They went to preshool. I worked from home until preschool and now outside home. I use a Keeper for my period. We eat mostly organic and we make food from scratch. We think soda is Satan's blood. but we go to In-and-Out 3-4 times a year. Kids in public school. We love books and TV. We practice zen meditation and play violent videogames. My kids swear like sailors and are great poker players. We go to to opera and symphony and musicals. My kids have chores and allowances. My kids go to yoga with me when they feel like it. I do not believe in spanking but I believe there many thing kid should do because I said so. We use herbs, acupressure and Western medicine. I have nothing against pain control or psychiatric drugs for my child.

Above all, I hate dogma in everything from my Buddhist practice to parenting. I believes in middle path and love. I hate checklists. What works for my family might not work for your and vice verse.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I.....I think I love YOU!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Hm mm
> 
> ...


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I.....I think I love YOU!


Ditto. I haven't faced the same things as Alenushka, nor do a practice her lifestyle choices, but I can say that I'm part and parcel of her brain/thinking!


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## Bena (Jan 26, 2008)

Me too!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I.....I think I love YOU!


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Hm mm
> 
> What is mainstream? What is crunchy? Even if I make my own placenta dumplings, grow my own organic homeopathic herbs and worship the goddess everyday I will not be considered crunchy enough because I believe that quiet a few Ap practice would simply destroy my family. Even if I voted GOP, were a business suit everyday and eat at Pizza hut once a week, I would still not be mainstream . simply by virtue of being poly.


Placenta dumplings is cracking me up.







You are awesome.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Ok, well add me to the Alenushka fan club too. I fell in love with her on the "what makes you crunchy" thread. She had me at Six Feet Under







.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I like this thread, or at least what I've read of it (didn't make it through all 18 pages).

My kid isn't born yet, but let's see:

I'm planning a natural hospital birth with a CNM. I would consider a home birth if I could find a care provider I felt comfortable with, but would not consider a planned UC. (Distributing an anti-vaccine article full of biased writing and inaccurate scientific statements was not a good way to gain the confidence of a pharmacist and an instructor of English composition... we opted not to use that homebirth practice.)

I plan to return to work rather than staying at home. My husband and I intend to juggle our schedules so we don't need day care or need only an occasional day at Grandma's, but if we end up needing it we're prepared for that eventuality.

We plan to cloth diaper but will probably use disposables early on and for traveling.

I plan to breastfeed, and pump once I return to work, but if I have problems breastfeeding I can't see myself going as far in pursuit of it as some people have. My frustration threshold for when I'll quit is likely to end up being lower than some and I'm okay with that.

We don't use solely natural cleaning products and do use paper towels sometimes. My motivation for cutting down on paper towel use is more economic than environmental, tbh. (Rags are cheaper!)

We recycle but don't compost. We live in an apartment, and have nowhere to put it. I'd like to compost some day when we have a house.

We don't eat all organic. It's expensive!

We plan to vaccinate about 90-95% on schedule.

We don't have a stroller yet, but haven't ruled out getting one later.

We have a play pen and we'll use it for baby containment as necessary.

I'll use medications if my kids need them. I'll use herbals if they're the right option; herbals have benefits and risks just like regular pharmaceuticals. I won't use homeopathics because they contain no active ingredients.

We are planning to side-car a crib rather than doing full-on cosleeping.

I don't know what I think about pacifiers yet.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> Ok, well add me to the Alenushka fan club too. I fell in love with her on the "what makes you crunchy" thread. She had me at Six Feet Under
> 
> ...


UMM I hope you don't mean her rant about how her AP screwed up her life and she wishes she was FF and in daycare and how AP is a religious CULT. She really pissed me off. She was horrifically rude and made some REALLY harsh statements. I'm such an F up b/c I had to read a book to learn how to parent and all. I can't even think about it without getting mad.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Please, do not misquote me. What I posted is that my mom, if she lived now, would be considered a model AP parents according to the AP checklist (natural birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, cloth diapers, raising her own food , everything made form scratch, work form home etc etc etc). She was bipolar untreated alcoholic. So, yes if I had too choose between a parents who gets 100% on AP checklist vs someone who is not an alcoholic untreated bipolar works full time and fed me formula, I would pick the formula feeding non alcoholic.

I think my childhood and my mom totally proves the points between the spirit and the letter of something.

It was another posted who sad that AP is religion to her...and I find it sad. This is how dogmatic cults starts.

I think it is ridiculous to ignore a fact that a huge AP industry has developed around the concept. Look at the MDC front pages, people reviews products like mad. Endless books, experts who charge $$$ for consultations etc etc etc. That's capitalism for you, whatever it is AP, Eco, Green or Natural, people will find a way to make money on it. Which of course is horrible system but better than anything else out there.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenniferlynne*
> 
> I've been around MDC for years now but haven't been here much in the last several months, so I was surprised to see this thread allowed to continue for so long. BUT I have to say, I'm really glad it has and I, for one, am really happy with the recent changes. In the past I've been turned off by the judgmental, "crunchier-than-thou" tone of many threads, and it made me cringe, it deeply saddened me, to see mamas who were genuinely seeking advice be flamed for their choices.


I recall an older thread in which we all pretended to be super-crunchy. I wrote something about only eating plants that I foraged from my lawn, and only if they volunteered to be eaten.

And I was joking.

I should try to dig it up.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Please, do not misquote me. What I posted is that my mom, if she lived now, would be considered a model AP parents according to the AP checklist (natural birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, cloth diapers, raising her own food , everything made form scratch, work form home etc etc etc). She was bipolar untreated alcoholic. So, yes if I had too choose between a parents who gets 100% on AP checklist vs someone who is not an alcoholic untreated bipolar works full time and fed me formula, I would pick the formula feeding non alcoholic.
> 
> ...


I think people buy books and products because they are replacing another way of parenting. Like AP, the North American parenting model was pushed by pediatricians and parenting experts as a package--formula feeding worked well with scheduling all the activities of babyhood, and parents were encouraged not to pick up their children in order to get them to sleep on schedule. We've inherited several generations of enforcing an industrial model onto the nursery. Then there were the religious conservative parenting experts who are still around who advocate breaking the will of the child--basically the same philosophy that underpins torture.

A lot of us grew up with parenting we suspect damaged us, and we don't want to perpetuate that on our kids. People make a religion out of AP because they hope parenting their baby perfectly will lead organically to the perfect childhood. Unfortunately we all still have limitations. We also burnish our infant parenting to a high gloss--the breastfeeding and co-sleeping and what kind of diapers and what kind of ways of being physically close to the baby--in a way that ignores parenting into childhood.

Oh, to answer the question, I think I'm totally mainstream but everyone around me seems to consider me a hippie weirdo vegetarian co-sleeping non-punishing public library freak. I don't know what their problem is.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Here you make it seem so innocent like a misunderstanding but your OP on the other forum was highly offensive. It was NOT specific to your situation from your wording. I replied over there and you ignored it anyway but I think if you had read it you would see that what you wrote was offensive. *I* also don't agree with some AP checklist and OMG my kid watches tv too but MDC as far as I knew wasn't all about checklist and being an AP was never bout that for me. I don't attack anyone's parenting s long as no one gets hurt so don't attack mine and make assumptions that I am doing it to be perfect or right or w.e THIS kind of parenting appeals to me and I think it is how my children need to be parented.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Please, do not misquote me. What I posted is that my mom, if she lived now, would be considered a model AP parents according to the AP checklist (natural birth, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, cloth diapers, raising her own food , everything made form scratch, work form home etc etc etc). She was bipolar untreated alcoholic. So, yes if I had too choose between a parents who gets 100% on AP checklist vs someone who is not an alcoholic untreated bipolar works full time and fed me formula, I would pick the formula feeding non alcoholic.
> 
> ...


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## matte (Dec 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> I think people buy books and products because they are replacing another way of parenting. Like AP, the North American parenting model was pushed by pediatricians and parenting experts as a package--formula feeding worked well with scheduling all the activities of babyhood, and parents were encouraged not to pick up their children in order to get them to sleep on schedule. We've inherited several generations of enforcing an industrial model onto the nursery. Then there were the religious conservative parenting experts who are still around who advocate breaking the will of the child--basically the same philosophy that underpins torture.
> 
> A lot of us grew up with parenting we suspect damaged us, and we don't want to perpetuate that on our kids. People make a religion out of AP because they hope parenting their baby perfectly will lead organically to the perfect childhood. Unfortunately we all still have limitations. We also burnish our infant parenting to a high gloss--the breastfeeding and co-sleeping and what kind of diapers and what kind of ways of being physically close to the baby--in a way that ignores parenting into childhood.


I agree that this is part of what motivates people to focus on AP in a zealous way, to make it a form of obsession. However, I am not sure that AP is a complete panacea. I was raised in a very 'observant' AP household, with family bed, natural healing, chickens in the backyard, unschooled, etc. (I think we were charter subscribers to Mothering Magazine!, at any rate, we had all the issues on the shelf.) We went to unschooling midwifry communes in the woods, etc. However, our family had problems too (kind of like *Alenushka*'s). We also had problems that I DO attribute to too zealous application of some AP/NFL philosophies (and not only my ruined teeth!).

To put it another way, I think the fact that I was raised hardcore NFL/AP/Crunchy is what cancels out my NFL(etc)-ness. I don't see it as a perfect way to raise children, I see it as a stream of thought and practice that has a lot of positives but also has negatives. Just like "mainstream North American childrearing," it also has potentials for abuse, for extremeism, etc, some of which can happen DESPITE the ideals of NFL/AP, some of which I think are caused by too-strict application of NFL/AP (including mother burn-out and, yes, martyrdom, which can both really negatively affect children). I won't get any further into what I think can be dangerous about AP, because I'll surely be banned, and I like being able to participate in this community because in many ways it reflects where I come from.

You know, I want to be able to learn from everyone about cloth diapering and breastfeeding. But I want ALSO to be able to share my experiences about the positive value of mothers with focus outside the home, to talk with people who also think that homeschooling can have both positive and negative effects (I know, I was homeschooled for more than 10 years! I was on TV for it, etc, and now I work as an educational consultant and have taught at top universities).

It seems very odd to me that NFL/AP has been around for more than a generation, yet there is very little discussion that draws on this long history... at least here. Instead, at times we may be expected to act in some ways like a community of converts, to react against 'mainstream' values and unquestioningly embrace something else. I wonder about that and how well it will really serve us as a group.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Also I get what you mean about it being a business but everything in this country is a business (even how to potty a child). It doesn't matter what the subject the US is all about making money,

The thing is being AP is not a knew thing it's the old way of parenting before all the cribs, formula, and CIO was introduced. I am just getting back to the roots of human parenting IMO not following some new fad in parenting.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I am just getting back to the roots of human parenting IMO not following some new fad in parenting.


Back in the bad old days people bf (well poor people did at any rate) and co-slept and died at huge numbers before age five because that's the only choice you had. The majority of the population lived in unimaginable poverty and most of the so called "AP" principles you seem to feel are the roots of parenting were simply necessity. One room shacks, freezing winters with no heat, one bed if you were lucky-those were the driving factors, NOT a desire to be AP.

AP is a new fad in parenting-it was introduced as a concept in the 50's or 60's. I guess you could argue you are making some of the same choices, but your reasons are entirely modern-and based on the relative ease of life today as compared to parenting in past centuries.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I know about the Continuum Concept and I find it to be an exercise in the Noble Savage school of literature-not where I am interesting in getting info on parenting.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

We eat fast food.

My kids are on select sports teams.

My kids go to school and do homework.

We use bribes and punishments. I can't stand poorly behaved children.

I love my stroller.

I started solids at 4 months with my current (third) child.

My last two children have used pacifiers.

I give baby ibuprofen for teething.

I think homeopathy is quackery. See also: Nourishing Traditions/Weston A Price/Sally Fallon and Waldorf schooling.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I have never read that book but yeah I meant more in an animalistic sense. What do mammals do? Look at a monkey it BFs, co-sleeps, baby wears etc.

I am certainly not advocating we should live like poor people with no heat and die. All I am saying is that AP has been done for a long long time there was just not a name for it. Of course people didn't aspire to it b/c it was just instinctual.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Anyone ever seen the movie Motherhood with Uma Thurman?


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> It seemed to me that you were under the impression that AP concepts just stemmed from the desire to go back to like pre-industrial times in Europe or America


No that was in response to a poster I was disagreeing with. AP is a modern philosophy. My point was that many of the so-called AP practices in the days of yore were done only because there was no other choice. I see it on this board many times-this idea that modern parenting is cold and sterile and we should go back to the way this mythical super biologically appropriate Mama used to do it.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al.

I also have to agree strongly with riverscout that many ideas of "modern" parenting in the 20th century were cold, and worse than cold, extremely damaging if implemented in the way experts advocated. (I gratefully suspect that mostly, they weren't!)

Take scheduled infant feedings with formula, for example. I think we have more than adequate evidence that breastfeeding has benefits for mother and baby and that scheduled feeding and parent-directed feeding may teach an infant to ignore his or her own hunger cues. We also have a tendency to mock excessive devotion to health food and organically grown food, but this seems to me a reaction to revelations about the damaging impact of toxic pesticides and the ways processed foods have removed necessary nutrients.

There are sometimes people on these boards whose parents hit them when they were growing up, or neglected them in various ways. I don't think the turn toward AP is only a romantic, backward-looking phenomenon. It's part of a multi-faceted search for a connected and wholesome way of life. In many ways, I honor and love people who are willing to be a little absurd in search of the best life for their children.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Why is being on sports team is ani-crunchy? I mean, I am blessed with unatheltic kids, but if a sport is something some kid need to be happy, why is not AP?


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al.


Yes I was using the writings of Ginott as a starting point. I have read the Sear's parenting books and gleaned info from them but also found the patriarchal tone a bit hard to swallow. At any rate my point was merely that I see this romanticized viewing of the past as some kind of basis for AP living and I don't believe that is valid. Of course I understand there has been bad and dangerous advice in regards to babies and children in the (mostly early) 20th century. But I suspect that bad advice has been going around since we humans learned how to talk.

How AP is practiced is IMO a thoroughly modern construct based on ideas put forth by more forward thinking psychologists and child experts. We can argue about biology and evolution in regards to child rearing and may actually agree more than disagree. I just don't think the answers are in books like the Continuum Concept or romanticized versions of the past.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

The past was great. The nobel savages are great model.. Past was brutal and people need to take an anthropology class


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Haven't seen it but it looks funny!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Anyone ever seen the movie Motherhood with Uma Thurman?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Yes I was using the writings of Ginott as a starting point. I have read the Sear's parenting books and gleaned info from them but also found the patriarchal tone a bit hard to swallow. At any rate my point was merely that I see this romanticized viewing of the past as some kind of basis for AP living and I don't believe that is valid. Of course I understand there has been bad and dangerous advice in regards to babies and children in the (mostly early) 20th century. But I suspect that bad advice has been going around since we humans learned how to talk.
> 
> How AP is practiced is IMO a thoroughly modern construct based on ideas put forth by more forward thinking psychologists and child experts. We can argue about biology and evolution in regards to child rearing and may actually agree more than disagree. I just don't think the answers are in books like the Continuum Concept or romanticized versions of the past.


I have some of the same criticisms of Sears and the Continuum Concept. I don't think I can stomach traditionalism or things being "natural" as the sole reason for parenting practices--at least not the ones I'm going to adopt. But on the other hand, I like the phrase "honor the impulse" (which I learned from a parenting book!) as a way to describe my attitude toward the goal of natural parenting. I mean, I didn't buy the Continuum Concept, but I immediately saw it as a way to include children in the things that are important to the family--and you don't do that if you really hate children.

I don't have such an ahistoric view of childhood in the past, though. I don't think all bad advice is equal--some of it is part of a folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings. You could view AP as part of a pendulum swing in social history, except that social history doesn't work very neatly and there are always hangovers from previous ideas in the culture. That's why in some of the country AP looks very out there, and it's hard to defend child-centered practices except on the basis of being "natural" or "traditional."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> The past was great. The nobel savages are great model.. Past was brutal and people need to take an anthropology class


Oh please, as if anthropology isn't a completely socially constructed, morally-dubious academic discipline, riddled with cultural relativism and judgment about so-called "primitive" peoples. The past was brutal? In most of the world, the PRESENT is brutal.

In any case, the study of the past is history, not anthropology.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?

Life is pain and suffereding, past or present. But to think think the modern American time is more brutal than live of many people now or in the past just shows amazing ignorance of the privileged.

How many epopel in US stay for hours in food lines? Watch their child die for a lack of simple IV or antibiotic? HAve goverment come into their house and take their mother and fatehr to a concentration camps?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al.
> 
> ...


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Riverscout is right, I said "in most of the world, the present is brutal," not singling out the United States. I also did NOT say that history is not ideologically driven. I said it is the study of the past, which anthropology is not.

But speaking of privilege, I'm not sure why you think the United States isn't also brutal for some portion of our population. How many people in the United States are in prison? I'll give you a hint. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, of any country, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of our population. We use solitary confinement, even though it's been shown to drive some prisoners insane. We execute people convicted of murder. We banned the execution of minors only six years ago. We have a whole economy based on prison labor.

(Sorry, I was going to suggest you attempt to rebut that, but I'm reminded that this is entirely off topic, if enjoyable.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?
> 
> ...


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic?

I thought of more uncrunchy.

I yell. A lot. So do my kids. I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar. Oreos rock.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I don't think all bad advice is equal--some of it is part of a folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings.


But it cuts both ways. All good advice isn't equal either. And some of it is part of a "folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings," as you have written. It certainly doesn't make it true.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic?
> 
> ...


The bolded part is a good example of perspective and practicality! We use public transportation because it is more convenient and ultimately less of a headache. Ever try to park a car or pay liability insurance in Brooklyn? I take the train/bus because it's easy, not because its crunchy. LOL! Btwn: I grew up in a home-cooking traditional foods type house. Sugar was an important food group! G-d, I loved my mother's baking.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

The scene with the 4 year old dressed in the organic hasmat suit with his mother commiserating his distress by crying in his face along with him gets me every time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Haven't seen it but it looks funny!


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Seriously. Perhaps its time for a S/O thread? Just saying.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic?
> 
> ...


Oh, Im a yeller. Always have been, even pre-kid. I was born with a megaphone implanted in my throat. And I have passed it on to my boys. I got it from my mother.

Sometimes trying to be as AP as possbile means changing some core things about yourself, and Im really just not willing to do that. Not because YELLING or BEING LOUD is something im proud of, but because if I start changing the little things about my personality, where does it end? Im supposed to be teaching my children to embrace who they are and be proud and self confident (Not to be confused with bossy and arrogant).


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)




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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I dont recall any AP/NFL bashfests.

Though forgive me. After 20 pages, perhaps I missed something.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?
> 
> ...


there are plenty of these, right here, in the US. there really are. Here's a book about the lives of some inner city children that will make you cry.

There's some pretty awful stuff happening, here in the states, and it is getting worse. around one in 50 children here experience homelessness each year, around 1.5 million children. (according to this organization which linked from NIH).

while poverty here may not be as severe as in other places, it is still pretty bad, and is not improving.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alittlesandy*
> 
> Yeah, I've had it with "Take your not-so-pure AP-ish approach to a more mainstream forum." I can't get good advice in those forums! Mothering is wonderful. I am deeply in love with the community here, including the people who UC and never let a speck of plastic in their house. God bless people who are that committed! I am floored by how extreme some people are, in a good way! I ADMIRE YOU!!! I AM JEALOUS OF YOU!!!
> 
> ...


I just want you to know that I really like you and think you are super sweet. You have such a genuinely nice way of coming across, I think that really is special on the internet, you are just so clear and nice and I never am like "what did she mean by that".

I really want this to be a place where mamas can come and say "Guys, I gotta go back to work. Its sucks. I hate it. But I don't have a choice....how in the world do I pump and bottle feed and feel as attached as I possibly can and somehow not lose my mind in all of this!!" - THAT to me, is what an AP/Crunchy forum is REALLY all about.....we're all doing the best with what we've got and that means that many of the mamas who come here will be "crunchy in their hearts" - but pressed for time, money, etc in the "real world" and needing to take the AP "vibe" and apply it to their lives in the way they can....THIS SHOULD BE A PLACE FOR THAT!!!

But open talk about Circ on these boards? Open talk about spanking? Brazen declarations of "Yeah, I've seen all the rear facing nonsense you ladies post about, HAHA my 25 pound 10 month old is still front facing, you don't know meeeeee!" - that's honestly too much. This is not a place for that. I mean, the last one is just plain lazy, dangerous parenting - ACTUALLY *dangerous*.

Somebody equating FF to child abuse makes me sick, because I know how wrong breastfeeding can go for some people sometimes. Equating poor diet to abuse DOES make sense to me...but I'm talking about the morbidly obese child who is sucking down a liter bottle of coke like he hasn't had a drink in years in the checkout line in the store, while his mother is like "hey, how many snickers bars you want" - you know? The whole "we don't eat organic" or "sometimes we eat junk food" - for pete's sake, that's not abuse, that's just LIFE.

On the other thread, the "You might be crunchy if...." all kinds of ladies came on talking about "this feels so judgmental, you think you're so much better than me because I'm so mainstream..." - no, actually, I don't feel that at all mamas....I FEEL like I'm on a NFL forum and comparing notes on all the things that we're doing with our family to live a natural lifestyle is normal and a part of the mission of this site.

"Ha, I drive a hummer, I love sucking down gas" <---- This comment has nothing to do with parenting, it is 100% about trying to piss off the mamas who care deeply for the environment. Soooo, good job I guess? Seeing these kinds of comments just convinces me even more that some of you WANT to fight or maybe are plain insecure in your choices. What does a comment like that even MEAN about the person who says it? You drive a hummer, you know it sucks gas, you know that gas hog vehicles are not great for the environment and that dependance on fossil fuels for transportation is harmful for our planet and costly in lives and economic security and you know that a strong majority on this website work to minimize their impact environmentally for these reasons and still somehow delight in declaring, loud and proud, that you drive a hummer, all that implies, etc etc. That just doesn't make sense to me. That, to me, sounds like you just want to come here and piss on parades. I don't care that you drive a hummer. I wish you wouldn't drive it, but whatever, you know? A kind, joyful person on the planet who drives a hummer is still making a more positive impact on the earth than a meany head who drives a prius, so whatever. But I don't need to know what you drive and you know that, the only reason you said that is because you were TRYING to ruffle feathers. No one was TRYING to ruffle feathers by talking about their composting toilet.

All of these things that you guys have posted about your "more mainstream" lifestyles, they don't make me feel like I'm being judged....so how come when I talk about the lifestyle I'm leading (on a board that was created for the lifestyle choices I'm trying to make) everyone gets all "don't judge me" - I'm not judging you, I'm just living my life and coming to a board that supports my lifestyle choices to talk about that life with other like minded people. Some of you have stated you are actually grossed out by some of the choices I make or think they are gross or dangerous. Still don't feel judged or mad, because I know I'm posting on a board which explicitly supports the things I'm talking about.

I mean, what is it that some of you are trying to accomplish here? The only reason the "You might be crunchy" thread went south, was because people who seem to identify themselves as more mainstream or "middle of the road" came on and were like "zomg I'm so judged here" and the only reason this thread went south and snarky is because the very nature of starting the thread the way it was started (no matter what the OPs stated intentions were) is combative...a retaliation for the "horrible" thread about being crunchy. This board is about being crunchy. If you have crunchy stuff to talk about, talk about it. If you have stuff to talk about that is a bit less "hardcore"...no one (who is nice and in their right mind) is going to get mad at you so long as the tone is "this is my life" not "Hahaha, I drive a hummer, suck on that, earth lovers" - you know? Even if you post something that is borderline "not for this board" - if your tone is one of simply stating a fact about your life for the purposes of asking questions or getting support....it's really going to be okay.

It's the "danger zone" issues that REALLY AREN'T appropriate:

-CIO

-Circ

-Front facing your infant

-Spanking as a parenting choice

Really, you know, just things which are directly opposed to the intended vibe and scope of this forum...you don't have to talk about these thigns here, there is NOWHERE to talk about them! There are forums to discuss activism to COMBAT them....but they do not fit in a "YAY, circ is for ME" kind of way.

I honestly like this thread, I really and truly enjoy learning ALL ABOUT mamas here....but please don't think it's appropriate to come onto a thread about crunchiness and talk smack. If you feel judged by my crunchiness, that is on YOU, because I know most women here aren't actually looking down their noses at you being like "what an awful mother! Her kids ate macaroni!" - seriously.

Now for mine:

- I raise and kill chickens and rabbits for food (I know a lot of people think that's really un-crunchy, but I do it because if I'm going to eat meat, I want to at least take responsibility for the meat I'm eating, make sure it's a happy animal that's well fed and dies with as much comfort and dignity as possible.)

- Um, my name is AverysMomma, and I'm a total and complete sugar addict! (Seriously, I have a problem, I stash and sneak little candies all the time. Like, right now, I'm eating cheese...but Im thinking about you, dark chocolate M&Ms behind my cookbooks on the counter!!) Yeah, my kids are HFCS free, but I am NOT.

I can't really think of anything else right now....I'm sure there are some mamas here who would come to my house and think I was SOOOO mainstreamy....and many more who would come to my house and think I was so hardcore and insane for the way I live. But, we'd have a fire, listen to the loons on the lake and share some marshmallows and raw chocolate bars and wine and all have fun in the end!!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Goodness. I get all busy having a life and the flame fests continue without me.

I'm not going to have much of a list on this one, because I really am a dirty hippy freak.







I'll go post over there after this, but my Gina wants to know more about my fall from grace and Im all about obeying the requests of my ladies.









We eat fast food sometimes. I practically live on Ramen. That's my big unhealthy food thing.
I am really upset that my youngest won't take a bottle of formula. I'm so sick of nursing I spend a lot of time crying about how much I hate it.
I love to travel and that is the most wasteful thing imaginable.
I'm a heller and I honestly think it's ok. My kid tells me when I'm being too loud or intense for her. She's really good at stating her boundaries and when she tells me I need to back off I do. It's ok that we otherwise have loud voices.

I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.

Every time someone says that ap is "natural" and that is why we should do it I want to point out that infanticide is natural. Many species of animals and cultures throughout history have deliberately killed off some of their children for many reasons. Can we not act like natural is the be all end all please?

And dude, I am totally here for friends. I'm kind of sad for people who aren't. And I really don't have time to spend on any other boards so I hope I don't get kicked out.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> Goodness. I get all busy having a life and the flame fests continue without me.
> 
> ...


I like your truthiness. I get what you mean about the contact. I've never let my kids CIO for any period of time, but then, I am in a situation right now where I'm really struggling with my 19 month odl DS not being able to self sooth very well....yeah, I'm nursing him between 20-30 times a day because EVERYTHING makes him want to soothe on the boob. 

Another one to add to my "uh-oh" list:

I yell.

I am an intense person. I'm honestly, SO intense. When I am even slightly focused on something, that focus turns into a laser and I am constantly fearful that I am too hard on my baby girl. Sometimes I just feel so HARD and critical...even when I'm not saying anything, I'll look at something she's doing and I'll have to tell myself to change my face and put on an easy smile, instead of an intense eye of scrutiny. I don't know, I guess that's really not a "mainstream" thing so much as a "my personal life work" thing....but yeah, I get it. I constantly have to tell myself in my head "easy, easy, lighten up, she's just a kid, she's growing and learning...lower your voice, don't be so harsh, etc" - I don't wanna be like my mom, good LORD, if I can accomplish anything in this life, let me be a nicer, easier, more loving mama than my own was when I was a kid!


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> Every time someone says that ap is "natural" and that is why we should do it I want to point out that infanticide is natural. Many species of animals and cultures throughout history have deliberately killed off some of their children for many reasons. Can we not act like natural is the be all end all please?


Yep. The few groups that do practice "solo birth" tend to do it to give the mother space to commit infanticide, actually. There is a huge taboo among some hunter-gatherers about having children too closely spaced, with the expectation that if you get pregnant. In fact, some anthropologists have calculated infanticide rates amongst the paleolithic population as being at least 15-20%.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Oh, but we do not want to talk about thing like this. You know "ugly " thing that would terrify us the civlized people. We like the noble savage picture.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

This is also a little bit of what I meant up thread.

There are certain things about us as PEOPLE that would have to go through a major overhaul in order to conform to alot of the basics that are AP. And at what repricussion do we work ourselves into a mental downward spiral in order to follow them? Do we put our very psychological health in jepeordy because we might be judged for putting our screaming toddlers down in thier pack and plays and step away? Do we bottle up our emotions until we are ready to implode because we shouldnt YELL or RAISE OUR VOICES? I tried the martyr thing too, and after about 3 months, was ready to pull out my eyelashes from the crazy that it made me. Im an intense person by nature. Its in the cards I was dealt, and trying to repress that causes more damage then good.

Its hard to find that balance, and some of us feel judged for picking and choosing what we can handle in the AP department, and some we just HAVE to let go.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> [...]
> I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.

















I have an 11 year old. I have loved him intensely from conception and put myself and my needs always below him and his. I'm starting to see now, how little it's actually done for our relationship. I've always done more for my children than I should, felt guilty about not doing enough, put myself last (with the exception of hiding out behind a locked door from time to time to gain some composure.) I find now that my kids expect little things from me that are disrespectful and I've always really enforced that (like giving them my dessert or gathering up their dirty dishes and laundry while they play video games) I think it's great to know your limits and do what you can, but take care of yourself as well as you take care of your children. It's really hard to balance that and I think it's great for you to acknowledge that you're doing it for you because you need it.

I'm really starting to take care of my own needs lately and it's very nice. I'm going to grad school (starts tonight!) just because I want to and it's just for me You know, I'm not even my kids favorite parent??? After all I've done for them.LOL

I want to add that I don't think that AP is the same as martyrdom at all. My experience with overdoing it doesn't mean anything towards anyone else's way of doing it. AP is great, martyrdom isn't. I do a lot right, so I'm not bashing myself either when I say that I'd redo this one part of my parenting.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

*


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm not sure I agree with the supposition that the correctly attached mother is an attached doormat. You really don't have to give up on your individuality to encourage attachment, or do gentle discipline, or promote natural family living...OK, I might be wrong about the NFL stuff, since I don't actually try to be natural, but I don't see why owning chickens or a compost heap or a worm bin would force you to always give your children your dessert.

I'm really happy, chaoticzenmom, that you aren't going to keep giving the kids your goodies, and that you're going to graduate school. It will be so good for your children to see you doing something for yourself, especially something that models life-long learning. I also wouldn't worry about the whole "favorite parent" thing.

I think of the not-yelling as a strategy to achieve my goal, which is a child who can do the things he needs to do in childhood and who will grow into a self-sufficient adult. The reason to do all the AP stuff--the family bed, the hugs and kisses, and so on--is that it should help my kid be a nicer person, both in the short and the long run. But that isn't going to mean I never reprimand him or that I do everything for him. If you're the mom of a boy, you have to be especially conscious of what it's going to mean for his development as a person if you let him walk all over you. Is that not really attachment parenting? Well, tough noogies then.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with the supposition that the correctly attached mother is an attached doormat. You really don't have to give up on your individuality to encourage attachment, or do gentle discipline, or promote natural family living...OK, I might be wrong about the NFL stuff, since I don't actually try to be natural, but I don't see why owning chickens or a compost heap or a worm bin would force you to always give your children your dessert.
> 
> ...


Funny, I just came back to clarify. I don't think that a/p or crunchy is the same as being a martyr, but it can be very easy to let the lines get blurry. Stopping what you're doing to read a book to a toddler, finding effective ways to comminicate with your children, co-sleeping if it works for everyone...those things are great. But in my case (and it seems that in many people's cases) we've taken it to a level above where it really works for us (as the person) and in that case, it doesn't work for the children either. I meant my post as an applaud to knowing and respecting your own boundaries without guilt. AP=great. Martyr, not so much. Maybe not everyone yet knows what that means, but when your children hit pre-teens, it may be more obvious. I have great, respectful children, but when it comes to thier relationship with me, I can see that I should have enforced some of my own boundaries. It's nothing drastic or irreparable.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> But in my case (and it seems that in many people's cases) we've taken it to a level above where it really works for us (as the person) and in that case, it doesn't work for the children either. I meant my post as an applaud to knowing and respecting your own boundaries without guilt.


Really well said.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I remember a story my old teacher said at Tibetan Buddhist center i used to go to many years ago.

I man was chanting prayers actions to Green Tara (Tibetan deity) the courtyard and Green Tara was hoovering above. Two monks were observing. One monk went to the man and told him "You are doing it wrong, this is how you chant. You are using the wrong words ". The man did what the monk said. The Green Tara disappeared . So the other monk went to the man and said " Please, forgive us, ignorant monks. Do your prayers the way you were doing before"
The man start chanting in his old wrong way and the Greet Tara appeared .


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I was *really* not trying to say that every attached mother is a doormat. I hope I didn't imply that. However, *for me* I need boundaries a lot further out than some people or *I* feel like a martyr. But I've got a lot of toxic stuff in my head other people don't.

I feel judged here because I feel judged in pretty much all of society. I was very badly socialized by my family. I don't know how to feel "ok" because I was told from birth that I was evil/bad/everything was my fault. This is something that was observed by outside people. It was a really extreme case of child abuse. My father started raping me when I was a toddler. It got worse.

I'm really tired of people acting like I am an evil person because my kids sometimes have to cry themselves to sleep because I am walking a thin line. Anyone who wants to rant at me about how I am abusing my kids can kiss my lily white ass. You obviously don't know what actual abuse is. I'm not a perfect parent, but I am not abusive. And it's really hard to hear the constant, "Well I guess if we are really open minded we can tolerate formula feeding. *But not CIO. Anyone who does CIO is harming their children!!"* No. I would harm my children if I forced myself to touch them when I am having body memories of being raped and I want to lash out and hurt anything that comes near me.

Just... ugh.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with the supposition that the correctly attached mother is an attached doormat. You really don't have to give up on your individuality to encourage attachment, or do gentle discipline, or promote natural family living...OK, I might be wrong about the NFL stuff, since I don't actually try to be natural, but I don't see why owning chickens or a compost heap or a worm bin would force you to always give your children your dessert.
> 
> ...


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

We swim in a chlorinated pool, every day year round, even though I go out of my way to buy and fill the house with non chemical alternatives.

Though we don't keep soda, chips, HFCS stuff in the house, when we are out of the house we eat what's offered and LOVE it. I actively seek out ice cream shops.

My kid at 2 can unlock my smartphone load a game or call her grammy. She's that well versed in technology.

We have no tv but damn if we don't get our money's worth from netflix streaming, to the point where my DD is confused when she watches real tv that you can't just watch Yo Gabba Gabba again and again.

That and much much more! I really do strive to do my best for my kids, while keeping my own personal sanity. Sanity = banana splits and marathons of mindless shows after a nice swim in the pool, sometimes. Y'know?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't want to post a hug smilie to respond to this, because it feels really inadequate, and also inappropriate--if we were having this conversation in person, I would only hug you with your permission. I'm sad about how much bad stuff you to wade through to be the mom you want to be. It sounds painful.

Everyone takes away a different piece of these ideas about warm, loving parenting and adopts it as the one that's going to make their children come out happy. They then make it their personal mission to make all other parents do this one, key, important thing. I don't think there's one single practice that's the key to raising children with love. I don't think it makes sense for every family to do family bed, and children might sometimes cry when their parent needs a time out for herself. I know I put myself in time out when I need it.

We used to have these discussions on MDC years ago about baby wearing, as another example. Some moms just can't physically do it. There were moms who were sooooo in love with baby wearing that they hassled their peers about using strollers. Hey, at least they weren't pushing cod liver oil, like my MIL. Oh wait, yeah, I think there were a few people who did that, too....

Sometimes attached moms use strollers, and sometimes kids in attached families cry, and sometimes, well, a lot of the time when you're a mom, you have to say no. Other families might have only rainbows and unicorns and everything perfect, but most of us have to make do with the imperfect lives we have. I figure I'll find out how well this worked when my kid is an adult.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> I was *really* not trying to say that every attached mother is a doormat. I hope I didn't imply that. However, *for me* I need boundaries a lot further out than some people or *I* feel like a martyr. But I've got a lot of toxic stuff in my head other people don't.
> 
> I feel judged here because I feel judged in pretty much all of society. I was very badly socialized by my family. I don't know how to feel "ok" because I was told from birth that I was evil/bad/everything was my fault. This is something that was observed by outside people. It was a really extreme case of child abuse. My father started raping me when I was a toddler. It got worse.
> ...


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## matte (Dec 26, 2010)

Great for you for going back to school! Great for deciding to be your own person! Kids need love, for sure, but love and a lack of boundaries are not the same thing. Love comes with respect, and both need to be mutual. Don't feel guilty! Take care of yourself well, it teaches your children to take care of you, to respect you, and to take care of themselves. Remember, part of loving your children is presenting them with a strong role model of a well-adjusted and self-respecting person! Love them without guilt! Children can feel your guilt and sadness, if you are feeling it, and they will take it as a reflection on their own behavior. On the other hand, they will feel your happiness and confidence, and internalize that as well.

I'm with you, be happy! Your kids will be better for it!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeliMom*
> 
> We have no tv but damn if we don't get our money's worth from netflix streaming, to the point where my DD is confused when she watches real tv that you can't just watch Yo Gabba Gabba again and again.










I could have written that. We don't have tv but DD has several wholesome cartoons she watches on Netflix. I swore before I had her that my kids wouldn't watch ANY TV, including DVDs, but that ideal kind of went out the window when I actually became a mom


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

Ooh what do you watch on netflix? Since we don't have the advertisements i never know what are good shows to have DD watch. Right now we just do Sesame Street and Yo Gabba Gabba.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

*Rightkindofme* OMG, I'm so sorry for all you've been through.







:cry


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeliMom*
> 
> Ooh what do you watch on netflix? Since we don't have the advertisements i never know what are good shows to have DD watch. Right now we just do Sesame Street and Yo Gabba Gabba.


My DD is currently addicted to Word World and Sid the Science Kid. Both really cute and cleaver. Another TV-less Netflix addict here!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeliMom*
> 
> Ooh what do you watch on netflix? Since we don't have the advertisements i never know what are good shows to have DD watch. Right now we just do Sesame Street and Yo Gabba Gabba.


My daughter *loves *She-Ra.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Okay, so I can't REALLY reply since I'm not a mama yet. However, I just wanted to comment on the "degrees of crunchiness." It's not like it's all or nothing. For instance, if I'm in the small percentage of women who legitimately needs a c-section, I'll still carry on with the rest of my AP plans (exclusive and then extended nursing, co-sleeping, CDing, etc). Same if I'm in the small percentage of women who legitimately can't nurse...if I exhaust all options, I'll do donor milk and fill in the gaps with organic formula. If you can't do one aspect, it's not like you're suddenly mainstream and beyond redemption or anything









Okay, so to lighten this up, here is my deepest, darkest secret...

I wish I was brave enough for a hospital birth with an epidural. I'll homebirth unless I truly need a c-section, but DANG it sounds nice to go in and have no pain and have the nurses take care of you. I'm terrified of needles and terrified of hospitals and I am truly looking forward to my homebirths, but I don't think that homebirthing is brave, I think hospital birthing is and sometimes I wish I was that brave.

Oh, and I am obsessed with TV. Love it. I already have planned to put my birth tub in front of the flat screen so that during my hypothetical future labor, I can watch TV between contractions. I plan to spend the first several weeks after my birth on the couch, napping/nursing/watching TV.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

What scares you about nurses? It would worth your time to just tour the local hospital L&D unit and talk to people. If god forbid you need a transfer, you will be familiar with the surrounding. familiarity reduces anxiety.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie*
> 
> Okay, so I can't REALLY reply since I'm not a mama yet. However, I just wanted to comment on the "degrees of crunchiness." It's not like it's all or nothing. For instance, if I'm in the small percentage of women who legitimately needs a c-section, I'll still carry on with the rest of my AP plans (exclusive and then extended nursing, co-sleeping, CDing, etc). Same if I'm in the small percentage of women who legitimately can't nurse...if I exhaust all options, I'll do donor milk and fill in the gaps with organic formula. If you can't do one aspect, it's not like you're suddenly mainstream and beyond redemption or anything
> 
> ...


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Given that my first home birth ended up in a transfer (vaginal birth after epidural/pitocin) and my second home birth ended in a hemorrhage and I nearly died in my bed I think there is a high possibility I would opt for an elective c-section should I ever get pregnant again. My first labor was 49 hours and my second was nine days and I almost died. I think I've proven that I'm buff enough for this lifetime. I have nothing else to prove to the crunchy police about my birth choices.

It's very unlikely I will ever have another child though. My husband decided that watching me nearly die was enough for him. No more kids.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lunarlady*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Beware meerkat manor...it'll suck you in


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## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeliMom*
> 
> Ooh what do you watch on netflix? Since we don't have the advertisements i never know what are good shows to have DD watch. Right now we just do Sesame Street and Yo Gabba Gabba.


 DD loves Kipper--it's about a British dog and his friends and is very low key, nothing violent at all. She also likes Thomas the Train, LeapFrog videos, and Veggie Tales (this one has a Christian perspective).


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## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> My daughter *loves *She-Ra.


 Oh wow, this was my favorite back in the 80's . . .


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


So I've learned that I need to add a caveat (am I using the right word there?) to my "cio is bad" statement. I apologize if I've offended you or made you feel bad or defensive about this. When I think of CIO, to me it means sleep training in which the baby cries alone, all or most of the time period, with the intention of making them learn to fall asleep on their own. It doesn't seem like what you wrote fits my idea of CIO.

I do also think it's sad when people let their kids cry alone (when the kid obviously wants attention) because they (the parents) think it's funny, or they want their kid to be tougher, or they don't want to baby them. There are a lot of such videos on America's Funniest Videos, and they make me really sad. (Like the one where the toddler is afraid of her shadow, and keeps crying and reaching out and running to Mom, who is holding the video camera. Mom keeps moving away from her so she can keep videoing the hilarity of her dd's fear.)

To ME (I can't speak for anyone else, but I would assume that lots here would have similar thoughts) that is NOT the same as putting your kid down because you just.can't.take.it anymore. I have honestly walked away from my crying son because I couldn't come up with an ounce of empathy at the moment. I was all touched out, and I was just emotionally drained from his constant tantrums during that time period. I don't feel like that was cio. I do feel like it was a crappy moment in my parenting, but if I thought that the alternative would be "violence" towards him, I would feel ok about knowing myself well enough to spare him that.

rightkindofme, it's pretty clear that you know that you did the right thing in those situations. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about general situations that might have some similarities.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Oh, on the heels of the She-ra post, I'll add another one: Ds1 (6yo) LOVES spiderman, and has watched the first 2 Spiderman movies (he hasn't seen the last one because it's quite dark, and I think he would find it scary). He also loves ThunderCats and Transformers.


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## Babina's Mommy (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, I woudn't say the things I do cancel out my other thing, I realize this thread and the other one are about polar opposites of eachother but I will just answer here for both, kinda.

Things that MAY be perceived as Crunchy/nfl/ap/non-mainstream-ish:

NO CIRC. Am very against circ. breastfeeding. Babywearing. Cosleeping. Cloth wipes. Cloth diapes. No crying it out. Natural cleaners or just stuff I make. I really don't like meat. Try to get as much as I can organic. No hfcs when we shop. no hydrogenated oils. No aspartame. No msg. When we use disposeables, I try to get 7th gen or some other natural brands. Try to get natural body products, like baby shampoo and whatnot. Try to get the "safe" sunscreens, toothpastes, etc. Try to buy only glass/stainless/wood or at the very least, aluminum for baking dishes, containers, pans, kitchen utensils, etc etc. NO Teflon. No microwaving. attempted homebirth. Raw milk, farmer's market, homemade jams. We keep a bunny in the house (I don't think this is a big deal but people around here think I'm crazy, they think it's an outdoor pet" I nurses till one child was 21 months, another was 16 months, I hope to nurse this guy much longer! Before #3 was born, I tried to make everything at home. Breads, muffin, broth, soups including "cream of" soups, gravy, casseroles, jelly, pizza dough, etc. We use a lot of raw milk but our local farm is not carrying it anymore it seems. I make really cute cloth wipes. I make KILLER granola bars. We've made our own beef jerky and other stuff similar....

Stuff that might "cancel some of it out" TV watchers. I don't care if my two kids like Cars/Disney Princesses/Dora/Hello Kitty/Thomas/Elmo etc. If something keeps them happy for ten minutes, I'm all for it. I like to shop for sometimes fancy clothes for the children...boutique and brand name clothes and each child has a ton of shoes. I just got my hair highlighted and dyed. Son who only likes juice gets diluted juice. Sometimes plastic (bpa free) sippy cups with characters on them. Sometimes we do Pampers or other regular diapers (because things are hectic with new baby) Even though we don't buy things w/ hfcs and such, we do consume sweets, chocolate, ice cream, etc. I just prefer "real" ingredients. We go to other peoples' parties and eat all those "naughty" things. I don't limit the kids at those functions. I find it balances out because at home they eat so many fruits and vegetables, sometimes at parties they prefer those above the sweets. McD's is okay ONCE IN AWHILE. We have a "baby cage" one of the superyards, but we hardly use it, it just contains toys, only once in awhile two year old ASKS to go in it to play.

I had two C-sections and one regular birth. First birth was in hospital with midwife, Pit, stadol, no epi. Second was attempted homebirth, emergency section. Third, vbac was a possibility, but we did another c-section. I think natural childbirth is great. I totally support it and am in awe. I am terrible at birth. I am not sad about my c-sections. I am just glad my children arrived safely after the issues that I have had. I am a big wimp with regular childbirh. The hospital was fine for me as long as they stay away from my boys' penises. I had no desire to tandem nurse. We eat whole grains AND some white flour products. Now that number three is here and things are so crazy, I am buying premade things a lot of times. Tater tots! Though we eat vegetables and fruits, we don't really like greens too much. Spinach and lettuce is fine but that's about it. I own FIVE strollers. Three are doubles, two joggers (one was given to me) because a regular one won't go over our dirt bumpy road and we just bought the double City Mini that's for parks and such. I haven't used it, but two yr old has a "baby leash" in case of crowded areas...because well...I like my spirited, mischievous two year old and I'd like to keep him. I yell and moan sometimes to the kids. The last one and maybe a couple of others, I don't LOVE the fact I do those things and would like to work on them. So it's not something I'm "bragging about" you know?

Are other people like me, not proud you do some of these things, just kind of admitting them so you know there's people out there like you? Middle of the Roaders as some put it?

I like MDC and yes, not everyone loves the things I do...and sometimes I've gotten advice I didn't want to follow or a rude remark and really, it was so easy to just ignore it. If I don't like it, or don't want to do it, don't worry about it and move on. Because I've been helped by other moms more than I've been offended by them here...and sometimes I don't like what another mom has to say because I KNOW SHE'S RIGHT. Ha. I don't feel judged here even with the "You know you're crunch when" and "what is not crunchy" etc. I don't mind any of them. We are all different, but I think certain things that draw us to MDC make us "the same" too, you know? And that makes it okay.


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## crunchymama19 (Apr 9, 2011)

Two words...."Disney Princess"







....though I still blame MIL for that one.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> What scares you about nurses? It would worth your time to just tour the local hospital L&D unit and talk to people. If god forbid you need a transfer, you will be familiar with the surrounding. familiarity reduces anxiety.


Oh, haha, I'm not scared of nurses. I meant it sounds nice, being able to have them take care of you in a shiny, nice, comfy hospital, haha.

If, heaven forbid, I would need to transfer, I'd be fine. I am a huge fan of life-saving medicine and I'd put on my big girl panties. My fear is to have a normal, low-risk birth in a hospital. My aunt suffered a horrific complication from an epidural in a low-risk birth (which was truly a freak, 1 in a million occurrence), so starting at the age of 11, I viewed hospitals as a place you only go if something is wrong and the benefits outweigh the risk. I'm genuinely excited to home birth, but when you see those baby story episodes where the women are totally chilling out and watching tv, a nurse comes in and says "okay honey, it's time to push!" and the baby slides right out? I'd be lying to say that doesn't sound appealing.


----------



## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm definitely a middle of the roader too. My non-crunchy friends think I'm pretty out there in left-field, but I ve met some true crunchy mamas and I in comparison I can look pretty mainstream. So like Babina's Mommy I want to list both sides of the coin.

What makes me crunchy
Used cloth diapers almost exclusively with my first kid and quite a bit with my second
We eat a fairly TF diet with grass fed meat, pastured eggs, raw milk etc.
Make hippy dippy smoothies every morning filled with things like coconut or almond milk, flax and chia seeds and hidden vegetables
Regularly shop at farmers markets
No HFCs, no nitrates, no trans fats
Breastfed dd until her third birthday
Tandem nursed for 6 months (nursed through pregnancy as well)
Still nursing ds who will be 2 in August
Had ds at home
No circ
No vax
Love to baby wear and own a half dozen carriers
I had both my babies adjusted by the chiropractor
Co-slept with both my children for at least a year
We recently voluntarily downsized from a 5 bedroom house to a 2 bedroom apartment
I have started dressing my kids more in 2nd hand clothing rather than always buying new stuff
Own mostly wooden toys (only plastic is Lego, wedgits, and a couple of Eco friendly brands)

Why you might want to kick me out of the crunchy club
I own at least three strollers
I love to shop, especially for kids clothes ( baby gap, gymboree, and Janie and jack here I come)
Until dd started on a gluten free diet we used to eat at mcdonald's once a week
I yell
I have been known to carry a stash of lollipops in my purse to use as a bribe
I left my four month old with a sitter and a bottle of pumped milk, once a week, every week just because I needed a break
I don't think I could survive without sending my very high needs four year old to preschool
I had a hospital birth with epidural with my first kid (hated it, is what not at all the painfree blissful experience that had been painted for me)
I did some sleep training with my second child (no ferberizing- just not totally child led)
My daughter loves Disney princesses and anything sparkly and pink
We watch way too much tv
In the end I used mostly disposable diapers with ds though mostly because the high efficiency washing machine we had just didn't get the cloth ones clean enough


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> rightkindofme, it's pretty clear that you know that you did the right thing in those situations. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about general situations that might have some similarities.


I absolutely agree that I did the right thing. There is no doubt in my mind. But I *know* that I did the right thing because I have a really extreme situation. Why is it ok *for me* but not ok for someone who has less trauma but who also feels done. You know? It's getting to the point where I feel like AP means "My special little snowflake should never experience an unpleasant moment" and that doesn't seem awesome to me. I can't see how that will go well for anyone.


----------



## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie*
> 
> I'm genuinely excited to home birth, but when you see those baby story episodes where the women are totally chilling out and watching tv, a nurse comes in and says "okay honey, it's time to push!" and the baby slides right out? I'd be lying to say that doesn't sound appealing.


You know, it's appealing to me, also. Towards the end of each pregnancy I'm thinking, "Why don't I just go to the hospital and have an epidural and take the pain away!?" Yet my last one and this one is/will be planned a homebirth. I just don't feel the risks outweigh the benefits. I can definately see the attraction, though...it HURTS. No orgasmic labor for me, when I hit transition I cry and announce loudly and repeatedly that I'm gonna die. Here I'm on #4, never had epidural, and it could be so easy to give in...

BUT Out of the 5 births I have witnessed/supported, 4 were epidurals, and 3 of those epidurals did not work. It worked for a few minutes then full-blast pain again, or it worked on a whole half of the body(left/right), two mamas were starving and weren't "allowed" to eat because of the epi, one was very uncomfortable and her back ached and the nurse wouldn't let me help the mama. I know they normally work as intended but from what I have witnessed, it did not work and that's not a fight I want to have. Hungry? want to sit up higher in bed? I don't want to have to fight against stupid things like that. It feels like the epi gives the nurses/ob complete control over you and I will NOT give that control to someone else, not during a normal birth, not when I barely keep control during transition as it is.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I am going to admit that not having an epidural both times I gave birth had less to do with wanting to be "natural" and more to do with FEAR. Fear of them shoving a needle in my back, fear of having something pumped into my spinal column, fear of having something ATTACHED to my spinal cord, allllll combined with what I watched my mother go through with her epidural when she had my sister at 41 years old. It was SUPPOSED to be a routine c section that she would be totally awake for. You shouldve seen my dad all dressed up in scrubs with this shit-eaten grin on his face. But then the epi wouldnt take. They tried 3 times! Finally they had to give up (After about 2 hours of exscrutiating pain for my poor mother) and just knock her out. she was barely conscience when Sam came out, and she barely got to hold her for almost an entire WEEK. and heres why........

The hack that was trying to numb my mothers lower body did such a piss poor job, she ended up with a slow leak of spinal fluid on her brain. The pressure and headaches she was trying to manage through (With a weeee tiny newborn) were complete agony. The women couldnt keep her eyes open, lift her head off the pillow. It was mid summer. So thankfully I was home to be with Sam while my mom was rushed BACK to the hospital for an epideral patch. She hadnt planned to BF Sam anyway (she didnt with me either) so feeding Sam wasnt an issue (My dad had returned to work the day after my mom came home). It was an amazing bonding experience for all of us. I was only 14, but my inner maternal goddess kicked right in, and I took care of Sam that day like she was my own. Feeding, burping, changing, while my poor mother could barely think straight because of a scheduled c section (because of her age, weight, blood pressure, and diabetes)

So as you can see, that kinda traumatized me into being scared shitless of EVER getting an epidural for myself.

HOWEVER. That did NOT stop me from BEGGING for one when I went into transition with matthew. matter of fact, that was my cue that I needed to start pushing, the fact that I wanted one sooo bad.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *purplerose*
> 
> You know, it's appealing to me, also. Towards the end of each pregnancy I'm thinking, "Why don't I just go to the hospital and have an epidural and take the pain away!?" Yet my last one and this one is/will be planned a homebirth. I just don't feel the risks outweigh the benefits. I can definately see the attraction, though...it HURTS. No orgasmic labor for me, when I hit transition I cry and announce loudly and repeatedly that I'm gonna die. Here I'm on #4, never had epidural, and it could be so easy to give in...
> 
> BUT Out of the 5 births I have witnessed/supported, 4 were epidurals, and 3 of those epidurals did not work. It worked for a few minutes then full-blast pain again, or it worked on a whole half of the body(left/right), two mamas were starving and weren't "allowed" to eat because of the epi, one was very uncomfortable and her back ached and the nurse wouldn't let me help the mama. I know they normally work as intended but from what I have witnessed, it did not work and that's not a fight I want to have. Hungry? want to sit up higher in bed? I don't want to have to fight against stupid things like that. It feels like the epi gives the nurses/ob complete control over you and I will NOT give that control to someone else, not during a normal birth, not when I barely keep control during transition as it is.


You can add me to your list of women for whom an epidural only half worked. While I was too numb to have any use over my lower half of my body, half of it was in constant excruciating pain. Along with an anesthesiologist who didn't have me on a constant drip so every half hour or so the medicine would start to wear off and then it would take another half hour for the nurses to track him down so he could give me more. And I too was starving and sooooo thirsty. They wouldn't let me have anything to eat or drink. When I was pushing I wasn't thinking about getting to meet my baby because all i could think about was getting to drink some juice.


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## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrunchyMama19*
> 
> Two words...."Disney Princess"
> 
> ...


DD1 is completely obsessed with Disney princesses. I mainly blame my SIL, who is much more "girly" than I am (and she has twin boys, lol), but DD has really cultivated her own interest in it. It really irritates my "crunchy" side--I feel like the values are materialistic and anti-feminist. Sometimes I try to divert DD's interest to something else, but I also don't want to discourage her from expressing her own tastes--that wouldn't really be very AP, would it







Incidentally, DD also loves playing in the mud, her train set, picking veggies from our garden, and going fishing with DH. So, as much as it irks me that something so "mainstream" has crept into my child's otherwise mostly "crunchy" life, I don't really think it's appropriate for me to crush her enthusiasm over something that will likely turn out to be a passing fad with her. I say all of this not to make a huge deal over the princess thing, but because I think it's a good example of how parents just have to use their best judgment to weigh what is best for their family at the particular time. Sometimes that means including some "mainstream" things with an otherwise "crunchy/AP/NFL" lifestyle. When DD1 was born, I was extremely anxious about doing exactly the right thing for fear that I would "ruin" her. I think in one way that anxiety is probably a mark of a good parent, but now that DD2 is here, I feel like I am much better equipped to trust my own judgment and instincts over and above what everyone else is saying or what the books say (while still taking these things into account, of course--why else would I be on MDC?). To me, one of the key elements of natural family living is trusting your own instincts as a mother and picking up on your child's cues. For example, I tried to wear DD1 as much as possible, but sometimes she actually preferred the swing (or stroller) over the sling. I loved cosleeping, but when DD1 got to be a certain age, I figured out that ALL of us slept better (including DD) when she was in her crib. We were still able to maintain an attached relationship, IMO. Anyway, i think that pointing out apparent inconsistencies in our parenting style can help remind us that we're all human and just trying to do the best for our kids


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie*
> 
> I'm genuinely excited to home birth, but when you see those baby story episodes where the women are totally chilling out and watching tv, a nurse comes in and says "okay honey, it's time to push!" and the baby slides right out? I'd be lying to say that doesn't sound appealing.


If it helps any, I had one epi birth (with an ob), and one drug free birth (in a hospital with a midwife). Of the two, the drug free one was much less traumatic, and less painful. The epi worked, a little too well. I could barely feel to push, so the pushing stage was long and tiring and drawn out. Then (and I think this is at least in part attributable to the epi) I hemorrhaged and the dr. did manual removal of placenta. They gave me extra pain drugs at the time, but manual removal of placenta (that means, hand up inside your uterus) on pain meds is FARRRRRR more painful than natural birth with no pain meds!

Plus, with a drug free birth, you forget the pain pretty quickly, because that's how it's supposed to go. I remembered (and was traumatized by) my epi birth for 5 years. With my drug free birth, it couldn't have been 6 months later and I was saying "you know, it wasn't really THAT bad" (and dp looked at me like I was CRAZY!)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> I absolutely agree that I did the right thing. There is no doubt in my mind. But I *know* that I did the right thing because I have a really extreme situation. Why is it ok *for me* but not ok for someone who has less trauma but who also feels done. You know? It's getting to the point where I feel like AP means "My special little snowflake should never experience an unpleasant moment" and that doesn't seem awesome to me. I can't see how that will go well for anyone.


I'm going to think about this. My initial thought has to do with CIO being sleep training, and leaving your child to cry because you just are done isn't the same as sleep training. It's also not the same as letting your kid cry because you think it's funny, or want them to toughen up. But I will think on it, because I think it deserves thought.


----------



## jessiechan (Jun 24, 2011)

Well said.


----------



## jessiechan (Jun 24, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> I replied to this, then bumped the button on the surge strip. Probably that was for the best.
> 
> ...


Sorry--forgot quote...well said, this.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Yesterday I told ds2 "Take these froot loops and go watch tv." Not something I ever thought I'd say to an almost 2yo, but omg, it was one of those days!


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## sweetcheeks (May 21, 2005)

Hmm... let's see...

I recently returned to the work force FT by choice. I was perfectly happy as a SAHM but decided on a whim to throw my name in for a position at city hall. Got an interview, got offered the job and it was opportunity I could not pass up. And you know what? My kids (and me too!) are perfectly happy with going to before school program and daycare. Our DCP loves my kids as if they were her own. I love my job and I feel this helps me appreciate the time I do have with my children even more as I think I was starting to take the whole SAHM thing for granted. And the increase in our household income has been nice... this winter we should be able to afford a *gasp * kid-free holiday in Mexico and our usual family ski holiday.

As I type, my kids are watching America's Funniest Home Videos and we went to see Cars 2 this afternoon as a family, where we drank soda, ate candy bars and had popcorn doused in butter. DD loves Barbies and Disney Princesses and whenever we're shopping at *gasp again* Walmart, we peruse the Barbie aisle.

I quit CDing #3 b/c I got tired of washing diapers, I had enough laundry to do being there's 5 of us, I hate doing laundry and the extra load of diapers pushed me over the edge. Not to mention my front loader did a craptastic job of washing cloth dipes so 1 load of dipes ending up being an all day washing event.

My older 2 attend public school where I send lunches for DS1 that sometimes include items such as Fruit by the Foot, Kraft Easy Mac & Cheese and Pizza Pops. (DD is celiac so those items, save certain kinds of fruit snacks, are out.)

These are only a few things that cancel out my AP/NFL-ness. I do what works best for our family and, quite frankly, while some of my choices will not be viewed favorably by others, I have happy, healthy, wonderful children and isn't that what's most important?


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## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sweetcheeks*
> 
> Hmm... let's see...
> 
> ...


I agree. I'm quickly growing tired of the labels and making choices for my family based on what others think is best. We know what will or will not work in our homes, with our children or partners and with our own abilities, desires, sanity, etc.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeah but everyone judges everyone. That is the real issue. Who cares if your kid drinks soda? I would never let my kid drink it but I won't crucify or judge you for doing it.

I truly do feel bad that some people feel judged here and I *really* didn't get it at first. Now I can kind of see as I remember when I first came and mentioned TV and had people jumping down my throat. The reality is it doesn't matter though.

Crunchy people have standards they apparently expect other crunchy people to live up to BUT mainstream people do the same thing. Everyone does it.

My DD hates the stroller so I never bothered with it and actually BWing literally changed my life forever ad I have an amazing OT story about that, but I would go to the park or wherever and have "mainstream" people judging me and asking me over and over again WHY I just don't use a stroller. I would never be snarky just say "I don't want to" and they would all talk about me...

Same with CIO a lot of people think I am doing my child a disservice for not doing CIO and some even for not spanking.

All that matters is what works for each individual person. Now I am someone who definitely can not handle people who force CIO or spank (unless they are in my family and I have no choice..) so I don't talk to them. If I felt completely attacked on a site I wouldn't go to it. If you feel the slightest bit comfortable here than just stay and make the best of it. If someone attacks you for anything just say hey I'm trying my best here bug off.

I remember last year someone posted about giving their kid cool aide *I* was horrified but I didn't say anything b/c it is none of my business. Do I think she is a bad mom for it? No. I mean it is *just* cool aide but I just think it's incredibly unhealthy and I grew up in a very obese family and I worry about the US as a whole...


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## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

Oh man sosurreal! I am terrified about the health of our country overall. I too grew up in a very obese family. My parents, some siblings and much of my extended family are morbidly obese and it has absolutely fueled me to avoid that path. No we're not perfect, junk still gets through on occasion but I do find myself judging them (my family) and other's for their food/ dietary choices. It is hard cause you're right, ultimately it isn't our business but it breaks me to pieces when I'm say, paying for gas and there's an obese 4 year old with a 32 oz. soda pop and a candy bar in his hands. It's just so unfortunate that the culture of obesity and overall disregard for health is being passed on and perpetuated. I don't want to judge another mother based on what she's giving her kids but sometimes I wonder if we're doing everyone a huge disservice by not saying something... I don't know...


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> Anyone ever seen the movie Motherhood with Uma Thurman?


I own it


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> The scene with the 4 year old dressed in the organic hasmat suit with his mother commiserating his distress by crying in his face along with him gets me every time.


Yeah me too


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alittlesandy*
> 
> Yeah, I've had it with "Take your not-so-pure AP-ish approach to a more mainstream forum." I can't get good advice in those forums! Mothering is wonderful. I am deeply in love with the community here, including the people who UC and never let a speck of plastic in their house. God bless people who are that committed! I am floored by how extreme some people are, in a good way! I ADMIRE YOU!!! I AM JEALOUS OF YOU!!!
> 
> ...


I love you..I have never fit in anywhere either....I am like you in that I want advice on 2 different things...by the way, just started reading your blog and I love it!!


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> Goodness. I get all busy having a life and the flame fests continue without me.
> 
> ...


And this is why Dr.Sears also adds this other baby B....BOUNDARIES. He says that AP is not matyr mothering. He is speaking out against the extremeness of it all. It makes me so sad and angry that mothers are taking this stuff so far that they are compromising their physical and mental health to be a perfect mother. There is no such thing!!


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> I was *really* not trying to say that every attached mother is a doormat. I hope I didn't imply that. However, *for me* I need boundaries a lot further out than some people or *I* feel like a martyr. But I've got a lot of toxic stuff in my head other people don't.
> 
> ...


rightkindofme, I am so very sorry that you were abused as a child. I think you are a wonderful mother who knows her limits. AND IT'S REASONS LIKE THIS THAT WE CANNOT MAKE A BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS. WE CANNOT KNOW A MOTHER'S REASONS FOR EVERY PARENTING DECISON SHE MAKES.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamaboss*
> 
> I agree. I'm quickly growing tired of the labels and making choices for my family based on what others think is best. We know what will or will not work in our homes, with our children or partners and with our own abilities, desires, sanity, etc.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamaboss*
> 
> Oh man sosurreal! I am terrified about the health of our country overall. I too grew up in a very obese family. My parents, some siblings and much of my extended family are morbidly obese and it has absolutely fueled me to avoid that path. No we're not perfect, junk still gets through on occasion but I do find myself judging them (my family) and other's for their food/ dietary choices. It is hard cause you're right, ultimately it isn't our business but it breaks me to pieces when I'm say, paying for gas and there's an obese 4 year old with a 32 oz. soda pop and a candy bar in his hands. It's just so unfortunate that the culture of obesity and overall disregard for health is being passed on and perpetuated. I don't want to judge another mother based on what she's giving her kids but sometimes I wonder if we're doing everyone a huge disservice by not saying something... I don't know...


Do you realize that you contradicted yourself here? You're absolutely doing the right thing by not saying something to parents of obese children about what they're feeding their children. Would you even notice what a thin child was eating? Since you have loved ones that are obese, you might like this blog http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/10/discussion-thread-i-was-fat-shamed.html

What struck me is exactly what you said...an obese child with a soda and a pop...you feel you should say something. You didn't just say a child. I doubt that anyone would ever even notice what my thin children are eating or drinking in public. It's something that most people would do without even realizing it, I've just been reading about it lately, so I'm becoming newly aware of this issue. Try not to get lost in that blog..it's hard to stop reading.


----------



## mamaboss (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom*
> 
> Do you realize that you contradicted yourself here? You're absolutely doing the right thing by not saying something to parents of obese children about what they're feeding their children. Would you even notice what a thin child was eating? Since you have loved ones that are obese, you might like this blog http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/10/discussion-thread-i-was-fat-shamed.html
> 
> What struck me is exactly what you said...an obese child with a soda and a pop...you feel you should say something. You didn't just say a child. I doubt that anyone would ever even notice what my thin children are eating or drinking in public. It's something that most people would do without even realizing it, I've just been reading about it lately, so I'm becoming newly aware of this issue. Try not to get lost in that blog..it's hard to stop reading.


First, thanks for the blog link, I'll have to check it out.

However, I don't really see how I contradicted myself...

I feel like overall, in parenthood we face a lot of judgement, especially from other mothers. I had been in the habit of trying to live up to some hypothetical "standard" that over time just didn't mesh with my family or our lifestyle, finances and so forth. Over time and with some searching, I feel like we are working more toward our own ideal rather than someone else's. That's basically what I meant by my first statement.

When it comes to judging others, I don't think I am innocent by any means. We are all guilty of passing judgement at one time or another. I realize that is what I am doing when I look at my parents or other families choosing what they do. The judgement against my parents' choices are the main reason I make the dietary/lifestyle choices that I do. But I disagree with the notion that no one should say anything. I don't think I have any right or position to but things DO need to change. Doctor's and other care providers need to stop brushing childhood obesity under the rug. School lunches and the marketing of unhealthy foods to children need to change. It is not just overweight or obese children who are suffering either. I do notice what thin children are eating too, and feel am pleased to see when it is "real" food. Poor health isn't only going to manifest itself as excess weight and I think it is sad that the overall health of children is at stake. Physical and mental health. I have a sister who is six years old and she is becoming very aware of what she eats in a way no 6 yo should. At six she is afraid of eating foods that will "make her fat". I don't see her often enough to no if she is truly obsessing over it but she has made several comments that do worry me.

I guess I just feel like we have a responsibility as parents to ensure our child's well-being and nutrition is definitely a factor in that. A piece of cake or some other treat every now and then isn't a bad thing at all. It is bad when a child's diet consists of nothing but, for lack of better word, crap.

(I'm kind of rambling now, aren't I? I hope this all makes sense.)


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

--- fatshaming. the last socially acceptable form of purposeful marginalization. socially acceptable projection of hatred for the appearance of another person.

i think there's a big disconnect between the actual parties who are responsible for the absolute cruddiness of our food, those who create products and market them to an insane degree, put hormones in our food, HFCS that is known to contribute to the most unhealthy living possible.. and the shame and blame for parents, many of whom do the best they possibly can. processed food is cheap. it's marketed so that kids frequently won't accept anything else. parents who work and don't have time (or money) to prepare food in a way that would make it healthy. i think we all need to take a long look at who is actually responsible for the crap that passes for food, and why there's so much of it, and why we put the blame on individuals rather than industry or government or capitalism. fatshaming comes from fear, the industries that push consumerism, and is a subtle form of classism that people don't realize they are participants in.

back to your regularly scheduled program. thank you for allowing this interruption..........


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Never assume you've found the last socially acceptable form of purposeful marginalization--you'll always be able to find another example!









But I have to agree about the demonization of fat people and the focus on whether food is fattening. The reason for all the food additives is that the real ingredients are cheaper. Worse than that, we're all focused on nutrients while the federal government cuts the budget for food safety enforcement.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/anson-kaye/2011/06/23/house-republicans-stop-pesky-food-safety-regulations

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> --- fatshaming. the last socially acceptable form of purposeful marginalization. socially acceptable projection of hatred for the appearance of another person.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~Charlie's~Angel~*
> 
> I am going to admit that not having an epidural both times I gave birth had less to do with wanting to be "natural" and more to do with FEAR. Fear of them shoving a needle in my back, fear of having something pumped into my spinal column, fear of having something ATTACHED to my spinal cord, allllll combined with what I watched my mother go through with her epidural when she had my sister at 41 years old.
> 
> HOWEVER. That did NOT stop me from BEGGING for one when I went into transition with matthew. matter of fact, that was my cue that I needed to start pushing, the fact that I wanted one sooo bad.












I had initially planned a natural childbirth because my fear of the needle in my back and not being able to feel my legs far outweighed my fear of pain. As my pregnancy progressed and I learned more about it, I did become more convinced that it was the right choice for me.

Right before I started pushing DH said he had to go move the car, he was parked at the hospital illegally. As he walked out of the room I thought "Now I can have some drugs". I had already been telling him for at least 10 minutes I couldn't do it anymore and he kept telling me I could. But after he left I looked over and saw the doula and was like "oh crap'. It was too late anyway and I'm glad they got me through it.


----------



## queenofchaos (Feb 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

I like tis thread. 

- One boy is circd. The other, due in Nov/Dec, will not be.

- I like junk food sometimes and do not buy all organic

- My daughter takes a paci

- I HATE co-sleeping

-I do a light modified CIO sometimes

-I'm a vegetarian who is bad at remembering to eat veggies

-I do believe and practice corporeal discipline


----------



## delfin (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaliShanti*
> 
> I like tis thread.
> 
> ...


by corporeal discipline you mean what? I don't want to assume you believe in hitting children, maybe you mean discipline regarding the body? like good posture or not putting the elbows on the table?


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *delfin*
> 
> ..maybe you mean discipline regarding the body? like good posture or not putting the elbows on the table?


Sure..


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Please dont hit your kids. Inflicting pain on children is not cool, and it doesnt have anything to do with whether or not you are "crunchy". Seriously, hitting a 2 and 4 year old? That is wrong.

I have only ever seen corporeal punishment or dicipline used to mean inflict pain, so I dont think you mean keeping elbows off the table.

http://www.creationists.org/corporal-discipline.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think delfin was confused by the term "corporeal discipline". Corporeal means related to the body, so it seems that she was giving the pp the benefit of the doubt and hoping she wasn't actually referring to hitting children (which is corporal punishment, not corporeal).

But yeah, hitting kids is not okay, It's not about crunchiness but about good, respectful parenting. The GD forum would be a good place to learn more...


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I guess so. It was the "sure...." that made me think otherwise. If you didnt hit your kids and someone said they were going to assume you didnt, wouldnt you clarify that if you wanted to be sure no one thought you did hit your kids? I would, but not everyone thinks the same I guess. The GD forum was a good suggestion!


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Please, if you are hitting your children, stop. It is never ok to hit a child.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> Please, if you are hitting your children, stop. It is never ok to hit a child.


I do not hit my children.  Thanks!


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Ok, I'll bite. What does "corporeal discipline" mean?


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeah what exactly did you mean by that Kali?


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## Phoenix Momma (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm new to this board, and this website in general. I have been reading this entire thread, finding most of it pretty amusing (minus when people start getting upset or offended). I am also learning a lot! Question, why is it "bad" to praise your kids or tell them, "good job". I am asking out of genuine curiosity, not bc I am looking for anyone to defend that opinion! Also, I have read some people referencing how they let their kids enjoy licensed characters, why is that bad? Again, I am simply curious about these things!


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

My kids are teens. I do tell them good job when they did a good job.


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## Phoenix Momma (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm a newbie here, what does GD and DDC stand for? Thanks!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DirtyHippyMama*
> 
> I have not been too much more than a lurker here, but I have found some great support in the DDCs and GD forum. GD is the most difficult aspect of AP for me, but I firmly believe in it, and I am thankful that the GD forum is here for me to be able to read or ask a question about something that I'm finding especially challenging. Same thing for homeschooling -- I don't have a lot of local support for that. There was only one response I remember feeling taken aback and ashamed/wrist-slapped because of. I tend to stay out of heated debates, even if it's about something I am passionate about.
> 
> ...


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I don't get Alfie Kohn.

I don't get Naomi Aldort.

DH and I both work and I would work full time if I could. Right now I have Fridays off but child care costs the same four days or five. I send them more than half the time just so I can get something done.

I eat meat from the grocery store.

I want DS out of our bed.

DD is vaxed.

DD not only goes to public school, but to an alternative program public school called "traditional learning" which involves uniforms and learning to read in kindergarten. I looked at the Montessori school and didn't get it.

I love Oxy-Clean.

I never figured out how to wash diapers really well in our front loader so DS is in disposables.

I had two hospital births with doctors and DD was a c-section.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix Momma*
> 
> Question, why is it "bad" to praise your kids or tell them, "good job". I am asking out of genuine curiosity, not bc I am looking for anyone to defend that opinion! Also, I have read some people referencing how they let their kids enjoy licensed characters, why is that bad?












Research has shown that when kids are rewarded for behaviors, they are less likely to choose those same behaviors. Rewards lower intrinsic motivation. Praise is a type of reward.

However, I personally am a middle ground person on pretty much everything. These ideas are detailed in a book called "Punished by Rewards" by Kohn (which you can most likely get through the library). I've read the book and got some good stuff out of it, but *for me* not praising at all felt cold and unnatural, so I tell my kids how freakin awesome they are.







They are now teens and they are good kids. May be they would have even more "intrinsic motivation" if I had done things differently -- there's really no way to say.

But reading the book and exploring this concept made me more mindful in my interactions with my kids, and I think that's a good thing. I can also see how someone could review all that same material on the subject and come to a completely different conclusion. My parents never praised me because they ARE really cold, so I have that associated that another parent might not have. \

I don't think licensed characters are a big deal, and though my kids are past that phase now, when they were little they played with Barbie and PollyPocket. They wanted to and I felt honoring their desire to select their own toys was more important than avoiding cheap plastic crap from China (which is what most toys are).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix Momma*
> 
> I'm a newbie here, what does GD and DDC stand for? Thanks!


GD is gentle discipline. For me, it is one of the biggies of the site. Although there is tremendous range in parenting here, I think that unless a parent sees the value in GD and is at least striving to implement it, they may ultimately feel that they don't fit in. Many people fail to live up to their ideals 100% of the time, and post of "this is what I did, but I'm not crazy about how I handled it, how could I do it differently next time?" are usually treated kindly.

Different people define GD slightly differently, but basically the idea is that big people hitting little people is never right.

DDC -- I think it is "due date club," but I'm not totally sure.


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## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

I like (most of ) this thread! I contradict myself/crunchiness/APness/NPness....

- My first DC is circ'ed

- My first DC is partially vaccinated

- We eat meat relatively often

- I weaned my DS young, though my DD is on a CLW path

- We use paper towels

- DD sleeps in a crib in her own room half of the night

- I use soap and deodorant

- I often use conventional cleaning products

- DS definitely knows what a time out is

- I have 5 wraps/carriers that I love & use... but I also really love my double stroller!


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## LWruby (Jan 21, 2012)

I use disposable diapers most of the time.

We eat meat.

Most of our produce is non-organic.

I love Febreze.

Our kids go to public school.

I like this thread.... I feel like a lot of AP parents can put out a "holier than thou" (or maybe "crunchier than thou") energy that can make other moms feel judged or inadequate!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Heh. This thread is 8 months old. Now I know what inspired some other comments else where on this board.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> I think GMOs are probably going to be necessary to feed the growing world population.


I think this is already true. A good portion of the human population is here because of GMOs, and this has been true for maybe ...40 years? Or there abouts.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> - I raise and kill chickens and rabbits for food (I know a lot of people think that's really un-crunchy, but I do it because if I'm going to eat meat, I want to at least take responsibility for the meat I'm eating, make sure it's a happy animal that's well fed and dies with as much comfort and dignity as possible.)


Actually, in my mind this is totally 'crunchy', and I really admire this and appreciate it, wish I could do something similar. Wish we could have some egg layers, at least.

I've been here for 10 years. I stay here for the support, but also because I think some of the more extreme examples of AP and natural family living and 'crunchiness' are entertaining. I'm not a hairy mama, I'm not a dready mama, I don't smoke pot, not in a million years would I use elimination communication. That's alright, I like reading about it, it supports this idealized hippy world 'out there' that I appreciate. I'm grateful I've got sisters who are keeping up a gentle non-mainstream lifestyle.

Edited to add, I appreciate that MDC has defined a simple core, that certain issues will NOT be supported, like spanking and cio. I'm glad that there is something that I can point to and say, that is not what MDC is about.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I love this kind of thread. It helps me guilt myself less about not living up to my own ideals.

Daughter was born in a hospital, attended by a CNM. I respect birth, but I don't trust it.

We cloth diaper now, but we didn't before she sized into BumGenius--prefolds made us craaaazy and I don't want to shell out for sized newborn diapers, so we'll probably do the same with the next baby.

We don't eat all organic/free range/whole wheat/fair trade/non-hormonally-treated/whatever. I'm trying to improve our eating overall, but it's incremental change, and discovering brands we like and learning to cook differently is a process.

I don't SAH, and I don't want to. Work helps keep me sane.

We breastfeed and I pump to donate, but she does get bottles when I'm at work (eta: containing pumped milk, but still bottles). I do advocate breastfeeding to others, but tell them not to feel guilty if they try and it doesn't work out. After a rough-ish start breastfeeding is easy as pie for us, and if it had been challenging, I'd probably have quit somewhere around the SNS and nipple shields and before the Domperidone and EPing.

Daughter uses a pacifier.

We have a crib, sidecarred. While she sometimes sleeps in our bed, on me, we don't plan to continue this state of affairs indefinitely.

We have an MD and a regular dentist.

I use fluoride for myself. Daughter doesn't have any teeth yet, but whether I do later for her will depend in large part on what the dentist recommends.

I believe conventional medicines, herbs, natural products, non-pharmacological treatment, and no treatment all have their pros and cons, and I choose the best for the situation without reference to which is most "crunchy". I'm a pharmacist. My profession is about helping patients use medications, herbs, and natural products in appropriate ways.

Daughter has received all but one vaccination on schedule, and I plan to continue. Also, I personally vaccinate others as part of my job, and recommend vaccines where appropriate.

I don't use or recommend homeopathics. Scientifically, they are placebos.

We are doing mostly baby-led weaning, but it's more due to laziness on my part.

I'll limit daughter's sugar intake like I limit mine, but she'll get some sugar as she gets older. I think I binge on sugar now because I hardly ever got it as a child, and I don't think that's healthy.

So I hold no illusions that I'm crunchier than thou, but I am crunchier than a lot of the people I deal with on a daily basis, because I do breastfeed, baby-wear, intentionally gave birth without any drugs, don't do CIO, and strive towards an eating and living style that's gentler for the planet. Hence why I hang out here despite the above stuff. I just like being in a place where it isn't assumed that you CIO, want an epidural, etc.


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