# Ongoing issue - Please share your thoughts



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

As all of you surely know we try to keep the boards as free of spam as possible. By spam I mean promotional posts for the benefit of one's personal business or for friends.

The first one is pretty easy for us to recognize and deal with. It's the second one that's more complicated.

We have dicussed this in the past a bit - how to handle situations where we see a member repeatedly recommending the same business or businesses. Now in many cases this happens sincerely, as so many of you pointed out when we talked about this before. A member will be so pleased with a product and the service of the WAHM that her recommendation will be made frequently in response to questions about product or business recommendations. That is acceptable and to be expected and is a big part of what makes Diapering such a valuable and benefical and fun forum for everyone.

However, it becomes more of a concern when we know that a member is friends with the WAHM(s) and we receive reports of this member admitting, outside MDC in posts elsewhere, that she is spamming here for her friends.

We are really tied about how to deal with this. We do not like judging someone's behavior based on what is reported said or done elsewhere. Yet if we are presented with evidence (say, a screen shot of the statement made elsewhere) what are we to do?

What do you think we should do?


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

Quote:

However, it becomes more of a concern when we know that a member is friends with the WAHM(s) and we receive reports of this member admitting, outside MDC in posts elsewhere, that she is spamming here for her friends.
If there is legit proof that they are doing this they should be delt with the same way you would deal with a WAHM who is spamming her business on purpose, totally know she shouldn't be. By legit I mean make sure there is real proof that it is the same person and not just someone telling their aunt's mother's sister's ex dog's old best friend. Like someone sending a link to a moderater where the post(s) can be read over and discussed. I don't feel a screen shot is sufficent only because I have seen them forged, very nicely forged at that. Though why someone would purposly forge them for this reason I have no clue, but I am sure it can/has happened.

Someone really enjoying the WAHMs product and sharing= GOOD
Someone promoting a friends business when they know they shouldn't then spouting off about it on another site = BAD

Just my opinion... move along, nothing to see here...


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

and I just do not think people should waste their time worrying about who is doing what and why all the time. Blags.


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## onediaperinmama (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamingMama*
and I just do not think people should waste their time worrying about who is doing what and why all the time. Blags.











I think we all (moderators included) have enough to do & other things to expend braincell power on.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

It's beyond a simple worry. It is a serious concern. The truth of the matter is MDC receives considerable financial support from WAHMs through their advertising. Of course theyexpect, and rightly so, that we keep the boards as free as possible of spammy posting that provides free advertising for some. Of course recommendations in discussions here will gain business for some due to the sharing nature of the boards. But in this case? If this issue is ignored and allowed to go one it can seriously affect the reputation of the Diapering board that we have worked so hard to gain. This is my concern. And the concern of WAHMs who see this occurring.

Jess, Kathleen, if this board were to be open to spam would you continue to advertise here? That's not to say that we would permit spam because another big reason for refusing to allow it is for the benefit of the general, non-WAHM community that wants sincere input and not promotional posts in response to their questions.


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## blessed2bamommie (Feb 3, 2003)

makes sense. Not fair to those who have *paid, per the guidelines, for advertising. I don't have any answers tho how you can make sure that raves are legit.







Sorry.


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## ustasmom (Jan 12, 2004)

Is there a way that link to an unadvertised website would classify as a no-no word and the site doesn't allow it. Maybe the way that curse words are edited. They are edited, right?

I think that it is only fair that advertisers get the bonus of hyena-hype.


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## scrappinmomof3 (Apr 24, 2003)

My thought is this: can the WAHMs who advertise on here be polled? To see what their thoughts are... If majority wins, then I say you should crack down on it. If not, then there really can't be too much of an argument to curtail it.

Is that at all possible? I mean, I would hate for advertisers to feel slighted because of this, but you have obviously received the opinion of one who advertises and posts here a lot, and Kathleen doesn't seem to be bothered by it. I kind of agree with her... there are other things that might need to be worried about.

JMO and two cents.


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## Sasha_girl (Feb 19, 2003)

I agree with people being dealt with if there's proof (posts on other boards, etc) that they are spamming this board.

Most of my diaper purchases originate from what I read on this board, both from the advertisement banner and sig lines as well as posts from happy customers. I would hate to see either go away.


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## Adamsmama (Oct 24, 2003)

I appreciate useful posts on a good WAHM website or a product. I like to rave about dipers that I've tried and hear about the one's I haven't. I can understand, though, that if some WAHMs are paying to advertise here how spam can hurt them. If you have evidence of people spamming for friends or themselves then I think that should be stopped/or their posts edited.


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## HeatherTremblay (Jun 7, 2003)

Obviously, I am not a moderator, but I am a wahm who spends her advertising dollars at MDC.

The main reason, is that I believe Mothering is the best magazine of it's kind.

Secondly, I like the fact that the MDC diapering boards are fairly spam free - people are free to look at the advertising if they so choose, but the posts are from parents who truly love to create and use cloth diapers, and a wealth of useful information, friendly banter, and honest recommendations are available.

Third, it is nice to know that when I pay for my advertising, whether it be banners, signature lines or wahm diaper thread listings, I am not only putting back into the MDC site to keep it going, but also that my effort and investment is not overrun by spamming.

Having been a moderator for a smaller diapering message board, I would imagine it is a difficult job to maintain and moderate such a large gathering of so many. I am certain that it is difficult to agree sometimes on what needs to be done, as with the current issue brought to light.

One of the nice things about the cottage children's industry, is that you often do get to make friends, or at least friendly acquaintance, with many of your customers.

If a friend, who is also a customer, posts about a wahm's products because they truly love them, that is certainly one thing, as you stated.

I suppose that if you receive a report, a grain of salt must be taken with it, to allow for the fact that there may be an unfortunate defamation issue.

If multiple reports of the same person seem to be a trend, though, I do think that there is some commitment to be upheld to both paying advertisers and to parents who come to this as a fun and relaxing place to chat and exchange information.

It is a difficult issue to resolve; the balance between what is actually here on the board, and what might be said or done in some other venue, whether online, on the telephone, or person to person.

I suppose my first instinct would be to contact the wahm in question in the case of multiple reports, and simply provide the opportunity for a first-person report, rather than simply relying upon third-party information. I guess the main thing is to be certain of all facts and know all sides of an issue prior to deciding, so that people who post here, whether advertising-paying wahms, wahms who don't advertise, and cloth users and cloth-curious new people alike will not feel there is a witch hunt going on in any way!


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## Jacobsquiltingmommy (Feb 24, 2004)

I can't speak for those folks paying for advertising, but as a consumer I like the posts raving about other WAHM products. Alot of the time it gives me the opportunity to check out a new product and order from another Mama. I enjoy trying out new things and supporting the WAHM community. I guess I can see both sides but if someone is getting friends to advertise for them then obviously that is wrong. But how can you know if it is a friend or someone who has just been really happy with their service or product they received? If there's a product I like I would recommend it if someone was looking for help finding something, but I don't post all that often so maybe I'm not much help.

JMHO,

Crystal


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I think MDC should already be able to address this in egregious cases, but in most situations I think it should just pass by. (and please, the rules are long enough already...) Easily, people become friends because they are fans or frequent customers...and I don't think we can realistically start analyzing those relationships. I have seen similar remarks elsewhere about this, but one thing to keep in mind -- some people call any sort of positive review or wahm mention of any kind, spam. So just because they call it spam does not mean it was not an accurate mention or review.

Highly unlikely, but if a moderator contacted me to ask me to cut back or stop mentioning someone whose products I truly used, bought and believed in, I would be pretty mad. I also think regular users are pretty savvy, even the lurkers. It's pretty easy to see a pattern of someone who always makes the same suggestion to a similar question when you're searching for that issue - so over time I think people do discard someone who is a one-note chorus. WAHM advertisers may be concerned, but I think we do a pretty good job of getting out the overt spam, and keeping a lid on the covert. I can't imagine it being done any better. If we all go away becuase it's too difficult to discuss where to get items or brands we like - then how effective would their MDC ad dollar be? We, to support MDC, need them. But they need us too, they need us to be here and to be receptive and interested in learning about new products and WAHMs.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Jess, Kathleen, if this board were to be open to spam would you continue to advertise here? That's not to say that we would permit spam because another big reason for refusing to allow it is for the benefit of the general, non-WAHM community that wants sincere input and not promotional posts in response to their questions.

I am not saying to open the site to spam. I am saying that taking screen shots of someone bragging about posting about a friend they posted about MDC somewhere else is ludicrious. It would seem to me very time consuming to do such things.....kwim? Not only that but rather malicious. I guess nobody likes a fink! I do not want to see post after post of spam, but saying that does not mean it is right to go searching the web for those posting about friends either. I dunno maybe I am just niave but I really do not feel there are too many who are posting about friends sales etc time and time again.


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## danzarooni (Jan 27, 2004)

I personally have paid for ad space on MDC. I love it here. I post frequently here and one other board that is non-MDC. I know that I have my likes and dislikes as far as dipes go and I have become friends with some mamas who have great CS and are friendly. If someone asks about a product, and I own one of what they ask about, I tell them my honest opinion. I don't feel I am spamming, a question was asked and I answered it. Now, if I created posts (not replied to) constantly raving about a product, I can see that as spam.

Just my two cents. The other board I frequent is MUCH smaller but doesn't have 1/10th of the MDC rules (which I think for a large group are really necessary.) I love that I don't feel constant pressure there that my posts are being removed or people are being threatened to be banned for posting about their products.


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## amicrazyyet (Mar 24, 2004)

The other thing that is hard to remember is that not all WAHM know about MDC. I certainly didn't and know that someone "spammed" my name without my knowledge and in turn someone else linked me here to show me. I have since been trying to find my footing on these boards before I choose to advertise. Had that original spam never been placed I would never have known about this board. I would not have supported the community or referred others here. I think blatant spamming should not be allowed, but I think it is a very natural thing that is going to happen. If a board becomes too difficult to post on because of rules and people playing Nancy Drew, I know I won't spend time here or my advertising $$. If there is an obvious spam scam and someone gets caught bragging on another board about it, why not just notify them via PM and put them on notice about the rules and/or remove their right to post.


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

I agree with Heather_The _Feather.

I have tried 5-6 different AIO's. Out of them I have one that works awsome! I always recommend that one. I have 2 favorite wool covers & 2-3 fave wool soakers WAHMS. I do know most of the WAHM's from another boards since the WAHM comunity can be very close. So my recommendations are limited to that. So in essence I am usually recomending a "friends" diapers.

I think it will be very hard to deal with. But a link must be provded. Screen shots can be modified easily by someone with experience.


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## NatalieS (Jan 23, 2004)

Obviously, a great aspect to the diapering boards is referrals. But to see threads that are started just to say 'So & So is having a sale!'- that turns me off as an advertiser, as a member and as a shopper.

My thoughts are that going and looking for people who 'pattern' refer would be a waste of time. But if it begins to be obvious, then perhaps a little investigation would be warranted. How hard would a search of all their posts be?

What really frustrates me, as a WAHM who has had her hand slapped for genuinely trying to help someone and NOT to promote my products, is seeing blatant SPAM on the behalf of someone. Especially when I am so careful about what I say and how.

So perhaps, that should be what is monitored- not necessarily banned: threads that are started with the sole purpose of advertising... And even if you want to rave about someone's customer service etc, that is what the Diaper Pin and The Diaper Hyena are for.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I appreciate that this board is basically spam free. I have rarely seen a case where it was true and blatant spamming. I would be beyond angry if a link to a non-advertising WAHM was edited; really angry. I think you all are making more of this than is necessary, really. It just does not happen often enough to warrant such grave concern, IMHO.

I too have a few favorites that i mention frequently, but i try to be circumspect, as i do have relationships with some WAHMs. I would be livid if i were asked not to recommend a WAHM because she happened to be an online friend.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

I also think people here are pretty smart. Say a newbie comes in and asks for advice on what kind of AIO to get. She might get spam from one or two mamas but she will also get lots and lots of good honest suggestions. If someone constantly spams for one WAHM whose products are terrible eventually someone else will buy said product and report back that its terrible. Actually, knowing the ladies around here many will buy and report back. :LOL And if a mama is spamming for a WAHM that has great products is it really a problem? I mean if the product really is nice how can you say the poster isn't just being helpful?
I don't advertise here or anything so I probably shouldn't have much of a say in things, but I think it would be too much trouble to track down these people and I think it would be awful to do away with all the raving. I love love love hearing and giving suggestions.


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## Jacobsquiltingmommy (Feb 24, 2004)

Actually I hadn't really thought about it but what amicrazyyet mentioned, I also didn't know this board existed until someone had 'spammed' me here and then one of the people who ordered from me mentioned this board... otherwise I wouldn't have known it existed! Also as she said trying to make my way around here before deciding on advertising; seems like such a fun place







. If it's such a problem why not limit it to the 'daily' fluff report?

Crystal


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## fluffernutter (Dec 8, 2002)

I participate on another board that has both paid advertisements (banners) and allows SPAM. It seems to working just fine for them. And it's a pretty large board.

ETA: I wonder what would happen if there was a special SPAM forum. ???


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## danzarooni (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NatalieS*
Obviously, a great aspect to the diapering boards is referrals. But to see threads that are started just to say 'So & So is having a sale!'- that turns me off as an advertiser, as a member and as a shopper.

My thoughts are that going and looking for people who 'pattern' refer would be a waste of time. But if it begins to be obvious, then perhaps a little investigation would be warranted. How hard would a search of all their posts be?

What really frustrates me, as a WAHM who has had her hand slapped for genuinely trying to help someone and NOT to promote my products, is seeing blatant SPAM on the behalf of someone. Especially when I am so careful about what I say and how.

So perhaps, that should be what is monitored- not necessarily banned: threads that are started with the sole purpose of advertising... And even if you want to rave about someone's customer service etc, that is what the Diaper Pin and The Diaper Hyena are for.

VERY well put!


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## ccasanova (Dec 18, 2003)

this is sticky! But it is great for the new mamas to get recommendations when they are new to the whole cd'ing thing. after all it is very overwhelming. But it won't do any good if the recommendation isn't strictly because the dipes are soo great but only becuase it's a way to get your business out there. hopefully if enough mamas reply to recomendations questions the mama will be able to get a few about a certain diaper. Or is there a place where we can rate? even if a few spammers get thru if the diapers aren't good those rates will reflect it. Hmmm, i can't think of a clear answer on this one.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

My only concern is that sometimes something looks like spam and IS NOT!

I saw a post about MY site that had it been about any other site I would have thought was spam... but I don't even know the person who posted it! It even listed the coupons I had available and stuff...

I post about things I like, and it's not because I am that person's friend. Heck, I am like the hotsling advocate on the babywearing board, and while I have met Kristen (lst week) it has NOTHING to do with our friendship.. it has to do with the fact that her product rocks my casa! And if it has helped me as a mama, I want to help others too!

At the same time it is annoying to hear someone say "X is awesome!! It's the best thing" and then you find out later that X really ***sucks***!

But I don't think policing would eliminate or even help?

Aren't we all about getting the gov't off our backs? Why patrol our online community so heavily?


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## gemanda (Mar 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NatalieS*
Obviously, a great aspect to the diapering boards is referrals. But to see threads that are started just to say 'So & So is having a sale!'- that turns me off as an advertiser, as a member and as a shopper.

My thoughts are that going and looking for people who 'pattern' refer would be a waste of time. But if it begins to be obvious, then perhaps a little investigation would be warranted. How hard would a search of all their posts be?

What really frustrates me, as a WAHM who has had her hand slapped for genuinely trying to help someone and NOT to promote my products, is seeing blatant SPAM on the behalf of someone. Especially when I am so careful about what I say and how.

So perhaps, that should be what is monitored- not necessarily banned: threads that are started with the sole purpose of advertising... And even if you want to rave about someone's customer service etc, that is what the Diaper Pin and The Diaper Hyena are for.

Exactly how I feel as well. And, to be completely honest, this is one of the reasons that I spend the majority of my ad dollars elsewhere. As much as I love MDC, the raves about sales and threads that are solely raving about a product (not a response to a request, i.e., "What's a great AIO?") are a turn-off to me.


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chemigogo*
I appreciate that this board is basically spam free. I have rarely seen a case where it was true and blatant spamming. I would be beyond angry if a link to a non-advertising WAHM was edited; really angry. I think you all are making more of this than is necessary, really. It just does not happen often enough to warrant such grave concern, IMHO.

I too have a few favorites that i mention frequently, but i try to be circumspect, as i do have relationships with some WAHMs. I would be livid if i were asked not to recommend a WAHM because she happened to be an online friend.

I agree completely!

I also belong to another board and to think that someone might read posts _there_ and come _here_ to complain about what they saw someone post about _there_, is utterly ridiculous!!!


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

one other thought...one thing I really value is actually stocking and opening for custom order threads...so many places are open or stocked for such a brief time. I regret the "herd" mentality, but if we didn't have those notices I would never ever get to try some WAHMs. It's a problem sometimes, but not being able to talk about currently stocked items for instance or ooh and ahh over fabric selection would be so disappointing.


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## sparklemama (Oct 16, 2003)

I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gemanda*
Exactly how I feel as well. And, to be completely honest, this is one of the reasons that I spend the majority of my ad dollars elsewhere. As much as I love MDC, the raves about sales and threads that are solely raving about a product (not a response to a request, i.e., "What's a great AIO?") are a turn-off to me.

Quote:

*Originally Posted by NatalieS*
Obviously, a great aspect to the diapering boards is referrals. But to see threads that are started just to say 'So & So is having a sale!'- that turns me off as an advertiser, as a member and as a shopper.

My thoughts are that going and looking for people who 'pattern' refer would be a waste of time. But if it begins to be obvious, then perhaps a little investigation would be warranted. How hard would a search of all their posts be?

What really frustrates me, as a WAHM who has had her hand slapped for genuinely trying to help someone and NOT to promote my products, is seeing blatant SPAM on the behalf of someone. Especially when I am so careful about what I say and how.

So perhaps, that should be what is monitored- not necessarily banned: threads that are started with the sole purpose of advertising... And even if you want to rave about someone's customer service etc, that is what the Diaper Pin and The Diaper Hyena are for.


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## Nada (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gemanda*
...As much as I love MDC, the raves about sales and threads that are solely raving about a product (not a response to a request, i.e., "What's a great AIO?") are a turn-off to me.

Yikes, I've done this before... now I feel bad about it even though they were genuine raves about the product.







: I usually include pictures of ds wearing the diapers being raved about. I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not but I guess it's sort of an attempt to prove that I'm being honest...









Nada


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

I am not going to say something nasty, I am not going to say something nasty. Ugg. Some of these comments are getting me fired up.


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## Mamabug&co. (Mar 7, 2004)

I have alot of favorite products and wahm's







, and I like that I am able to talk about their stuff to other new mamas. I don't see that as spamming, but rather, as just raves, or total absolute *diaper bliss* over my products:LOL I enjoy a WIDE spectrum of diapers







I have favorites that are made by the choice wahm's, and I have great diapers made by undiscovered or lesser known wahms. I am always happy to pass on my experience with such and such product!!







I hope that this all resolves itself, and whatever the outcome, I will be happy, because, this is a place I enjoy so much


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

On another board, I have seen one or maybe two people say something like "I spammed for you over on MDC." I have no doubt it happens here, maybe more often than we think.

But "spam" doesn't have nearly the commercial value of advertising at MDC, in my opinion. Even if someone spams for their friend once/month and the thread gets a few replies, that e-space devoted to the spammed product is hardly the e-space that WAHM's who advertise get through the banners, that front page or whatever it is on the diapering page, or from users simply seeing their signature even time they post. True "spam" has no commercial value, with the rapid pace of the diapering board, unless other people have tried the product or are very intrigued by the product, and the "spam" thread will quickly fall off the first page of the forum and into oblivion. Hardly a substitute for signature or banner advertising.

That said, I find it distasteful for the administration of a board to be concerning itself with who is friends with who, and expending effort trying to discern people's true motives in posting. No matter who has sent you what kind of secret information, there is no way that you can truly know why someone posts a rave or stocking information or other possible "spam". Any attempts to try to sniff out true spam are likely to lead to false accusations, hurt feelings, and general feelings of alienation from not only those involved, but those who hear about it on the grapevine.

I also feel uncomfortable that administrators of a board would encourage other members to "rat" on people who admit or claim they were "spamming" by accepting emails or PMs with screenshots or posts from other boards or the like. This seems more like juvenile than adult professional behavior to me, and reminds me of junior high when some loser kid would tell some popular kid, "psst . . . Susie said this about you . . . . " And I don't even want to know about the people who feel compelled to "rat" on other people-- as the "kids" say, they obviously need to get a life.

Karla


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## Lisadeanne (Sep 15, 2003)

One of the things I love so much about this board is how much information is readily availiable. I love seeing new products and hearing about the latest fads. This is what keeps me coming back. I am a shopoholic and I love finding the newest thing out there. If people are not allowed to post about something new that they have tried, etc how will I or anyone else know about some of the lesser known wahm's? I guess I don't pay as much attention to these things as other people do as I don't see so in so posting about a cool new find as spam. Honestly, if there were no posts about new product or just the same stuff all the time, this place would get boring. JMHO


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## Aherne (Jun 26, 2003)

Every three months we are going to beat this dead horse.

If we take away someones right to talk about what they like for fear of sounding spammy that is so stupid! I use X covers, I love X covers... if someone asks me what kind of cover to use- I will ALWAYS answer the same.

If we only allowed the products of advertised wahms to be talked about and mentioned- then we are turning MDC into one big fat infomercial. I dont think any wahm wants a part of that since in the long run it will hurt them.

As a wahm, should I leave the board because I am torn between the idea of making friends with people who might in turn be my customers and then *horror* say nice things about me and my product? If they are talking about my product and my customer service only... then it should NOT matter if they are my friend. They pay me money and pay the same price as everyone else so they have just as much right to say something as the next person does.

I think the sticky part might be with threads that just start with "I love this product soooo much" and suggest that they take that to the diapering review section instead. But talking about stockings, answering and giving advice about products etc etc should not be policed any heavier than it already is.

Oh.. and in reply to the "spam board" we do have one. Its called the daily diaper. Nobody reads it


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## Aherne (Jun 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*

Karla

OMG Karla... I actually agreed with everything you said (Aherne is snickering in the corner)


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aherne*
OMG Karla... I actually agreed with everything you said (Aherne is snickering in the corner)

Me too, I was sitting there going ..............WOW!


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## Nada (Oct 27, 2003)

I just wanted to add... I agree that there are some spammers out there... some spamming for their friends BUT personally I would not endorse something that was crappy, not even if the WAHM was my friend. It would make ME look stupid in the end.

I know it may seem like I'm being defensive about this but it's because I've done the "raving" thing a few times in the past. I LOVE coming here and hearing about new products. I mean, it's not like I'm going to put out a "What's your favorite fitted?" thread every day so the alternative is for someone to post that they've had a good experience and have been satisfied with a product. If I CHOSE to buy, then it's my own doing. Nobody is forcing me to (although some should restrain me :LOL ) and most WAHMs have a return policy (which I'm relatively careful about checking).

Nada


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## Lucysmama (Apr 29, 2003)

I don't get where you draw the line....

I am "friendly" with a few WAHMs...am I allowed to rave about their products? Or do I have to keep my mouth shut because we are friendly? Maybe the WAHM and I become friends eventually...then what? No talking about them at all? I agree with lifetapestry, it seems totally inappropriate for anyone to be scrutinizing who is friends with who and what their motives are, etc...

I agree, bragging about it doesn't seem right...but it skeeves me out to think about someone seeing something that someone said on another site, and taking a picture of that, and finking them out to the mods. It sounds so invasive to me.


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## 15yrsbetweenboys (Aug 11, 2003)

I am not a paid adveriser (yet), but wanted to add my own viewpoint.

Just a word of caution-I am not out to make anybody mad by posting this, but truth be told this really happened-and lots of members read the post and several were involved-but I am not pointing any fingers.

I had never been introduced to this board until a customer who belonged to my yahoo group posted a link (to the group) to a thread here in diapering that was asking about my products. A few of my more ardent "fans" (very satisfied customers, not friends) joined MDC and posted their feedback to the question. Immediately, it was assumed that I had sent them to spam or something malicious, and several regulars (okay, LOTS of regulars) were doing eye rolls and talking about "shady" dealings. Needless to say, it really ticked me off that everybody was so quick to jump to conclusions about "why" the new members were posting. Then, quite a few of the group of mamas involved in the eye rolling joined my yahoo group-a couple have stayed (thanks mamas!) but the rest only stayed long enough to read over my message posts and "see" what was going on over there, and when they didn't find any "evidence" they unsubbed.

How would that make you feel? At first, it seriously ticked me off-then I can tell you, it actually made me laugh-seemed so childish and immature to me.

Yes, I did come back here-but those gals from my yahoo group were so upset and felt so badly that they never came back-and I doubt they ever do-all because of "fear of spam" and way too many people deciding to jump the gun on what is or is not spam.

IMO most here are too quick to yell spam, no facts needed whatsoever.

Just my own experience
Shan


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## kblue (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
That said, I find it distasteful for the administration of a board to be concerning itself with who is friends with who, and expending effort trying to discern people's true motives in posting. No matter who has sent you what kind of secret information, there is no way that you can truly know why someone posts a rave or stocking information or other possible "spam". Any attempts to try to sniff out true spam are likely to lead to false accusations, hurt feelings, and general feelings of alienation from not only those involved, but those who hear about it on the grapevine.

I also feel uncomfortable that administrators of a board would encourage other members to "rat" on people who admit or claim they were "spamming" by accepting emails or PMs with screenshots or posts from other boards or the like. This seems more like juvenile than adult professional behavior to me, and reminds me of junior high when some loser kid would tell some popular kid, "psst . . . Susie said this about you . . . . " And I don't even want to know about the people who feel compelled to "rat" on other people-- as the "kids" say, they obviously need to get a life.

Karla


Wow, exactly what I was thinking, but could never in a million years say it so well! :LOL


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

If I own a WAHM's product and use it and like it, I say so.

If I do not, but have heard X or Y about it, I say so.

And as far as the original question, I agree with many previous posters that it smacks of mind control to attempt to discern the posting motives of someone recommending a product they themselves do not make.

I am willing to put up with quite a bit of 'covert SPAM' to keep the general community fellowship feeling here. It's my opinion that the truth will out, anyway... if a product is raved over and then purchased by a few brave souls, they will come back and report that actually, NewSuperCuteseyDiaperNameAIOs bite the wax tadpole, don't buy them.

My .02


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## Mrs. Edwards (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm not sure how to say this without sounding snooty, but I really don't see the difference in one person raving over and over and over again about a WAHM (whether they be friends or simply have a busines relationship) than WAHM's being able to promote their business by link in their signature or by the advertising banner. I mean, it's promotion right? Who cares who is promoting it.

I also might be stupid, but are there really people that may be friends with someone who may not like or use their product, but then actually rave about how great the product is just because they are friends??? Sorry, but I couldn't do that myself...not to say someone else is but still.

Like someone else said, if someone asks about a certain product and I feel strongly about it, then the answer will always be the same.

I also would hate to miss out on threads that promotes a sale. I mean, aren't we all looking for a good deal or new things to try? It saves me from having to be a member of thousands of yahoo groups!

And one last thing. I was a member of a paid board in the past that actually sought out the posts of members on OTHER boards, and nothing resulted other than hurt feelings, and members getting their membership revoked at the paid site. I'm not saying that would happen here, but, I just don't know how anyone could police this and it's a good thing I'm not a moderator because I wouldn't even want to learn how to police it!







:

**Edited my awful spelling!


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NatalieS*
Obviously, a great aspect to the diapering boards is referrals. But to see threads that are started just to say 'So & So is having a sale!'- that turns me off as an advertiser, as a member and as a shopper.

You're not the only one.







But fortunately by just placing my mouse over the name of the thread I can see the first bit and decide if I even want to bother opening it! That's soo nice!

I do on the other hand love knowing when someone stocks or opens again because so often my yahoo emails don't come through in a timely manner or I'm not on a list I should be! :LOL


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Edwards*
I also might be stupid, but are their really people that may be friends with someone who may not like or use their product, but then actually rave about how great the product is just because they are friends??? Sorry, but I couldn't do that myself...not to say someone else is but still.

Just wanted to say that I know you can promote a product that doesn't work for you and keep your conscience at bay buy being honest only about the good parts and not mentioning the bad. Such as - "This AIO is so well made and she has great prints, can't beat the price" But then don't mention the fact that the design stinks and it's bulkier than two cpf's trifolded! :LOL

Anyway, just wanted to help when you're thinking of how someone could seemingly lie to help a friend get their business up and going.


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ReesesMomma*
I participate on another board that has both paid advertisements (banners) and allows SPAM. It seems to working just fine for them. And it's a pretty large board.

I think I know the board you are talking about.. Let's just say that I too visit a larger diapering board that allows SPAM and it just drives me insane! Everytime someone says they are looking for a good AIO you have a number of WAHM's saying that their product is awesome and I just want to stick my tongue out at them and then close the whole screen!














Of course _they_ think that, that's not what the original poster had asked.. they wanted to know objectively I'm sure! Needless to say I only lurk there these days.









Now I'm not talking about P&B for those of you from my home board







- I consider that board small enough to handle SPAM well.


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
But "spam" doesn't have nearly the commercial value of advertising at MDC, in my opinion. Even if someone spams for their friend once/month and the thread gets a few replies, that e-space devoted to the spammed product is hardly the e-space that WAHM's who advertise get through the banners, that front page or whatever it is on the diapering page, or from users simply seeing their signature even time they post. True "spam" has no commercial value, with the rapid pace of the diapering board, unless other people have tried the product or are very intrigued by the product, and the "spam" thread will quickly fall off the first page of the forum and into oblivion. Hardly a substitute for signature or banner advertising.

Karla

That's really true!

I don't know how many times I've seen a new site come up and held off ordering until I'd heard from others that had tried the product and sometimes I asked several times so I could hear from multiple people before committing my paypal funds! lol This board does move quite fast and it would take a lot to get people to pay attention nonetheless go nuts over an "untested by at least a few people" product.

Now just for fun, let's say this spamming did get 20 people to buy xyz product. When those 20 got their product and a person like myself asked for someone to report back at least one of those 20 would be honest if the product wasn't all it was cracked up to be and most likely half would just keep quiet. As it is in soo many trades, word of mouth is everything! That 20 wouldn't turn into 200 as the spammer had hoped!

When I had more time I used to go Banner hopping here just for fun, pushing refresh and clicking on every one up there! lol And I love to click on links in posters signatures, that's a lot of fun for me as well.

Bottom line, I couldn't agree more.







Banners and sig lines do more for me than an occasional recommendation, especially by only one individual, because the former get my attention over and over again until I'm forced (by my own curiousity) to start asking everyone what they think! That's when the fun begins!









Ok - I'm now going to bed before my fingers get too far away from me or my typos get out of hand!


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *feebeeglee*
NewSuperCuteseyDiaperNameAIOs bite the wax tadpole,
don't buy them.









: Made me laugh! Ok.. now I'm really off to bed!


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nada*
I just wanted to add... I agree that there are some spammers out there... some spamming for their friends BUT personally I would not endorse something that was crappy, not even if the WAHM was my friend. It would make ME look stupid in the end.

Nada









Exactly! I have raved a couple of WAHMs that i 'know' online, but for two reasons: that their products are so superior and i want all the MDC mamas to be able to enjoy them, and because i think they deserve to have a broader recognition here on this community where diapering is so popular, regardless of whether they advertise here. Not one has asked me to rave her products here; i have only ever done that when i love something, no matter how much i like the person. Just when you think MDC could NOT possibly be more policed than it already is...







:.

But hey, if a mod asks me not to mention a product because they believe i'm spamming, i guess i have to comply. It's either that or leave this community, and i'd sacrifice a lot before i'd do that. This whole discussion is making me sick.


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## scrappinmomof3 (Apr 24, 2003)

Here's another thing to throw on the debate fire... (and the following are hypothetical company/business owner)

Say, for example, I bought an AIO from ABC Diapers. Melanie owns ABC Diapers. I use them, I like them. I rave about them, and "spam" her site a little. Then Melanie and I become friends. We are on other boards together. We develop a great "virtual" relationship with one another.

Should I STOP from raving about Melanie's diapers, when they are all I use? If it is found out that I am great friends with Melanie, would I then be in trouble, and get my hand slapped?

I think there is WAY too much to consider here. At whose discretion will it be determined that my relationship with Melanie crosses the line? It becomes arbitrary and capricious when power (and I don't mean power in a negative way) is given to a select few to make those determinations. I think the variables are great... to the point of not really being able to develop a lithmus test, if you will, regarding what relationships are safe, and what relationships cross the line.

I hope that makes sense... but this just came to me... in the midst of NEEDING to work!


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## Benjismom (Aug 24, 2002)

Just to add a little color, my business partner (not in the diapering business, BTW) and I use the term "spamming" really broadly, often in jest, to refer to any positive mention or promotion. So if someone says she was spamming something at MDC she could be using the term a touch ironically, if you know what I mean. I would be really careful about drawing a conclusion from such a statement, especially on line where we can't see someone's expression or hear her tone of voice.

And I too often give the same answers when asked the perennial questions (what's a good inexpensive AIO/fitted). I tried a lot of diapers that didn't live up to their billing and I'd like to save someone else the trouble when I can.

Beth, DS4, DD 15 mos.


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

My short answer is that as long as the recommendation is appropriate for the question asked, who cares what the motivation behind the suggestion is. The answer will be helpful to those reading regardless of who the poster might be friends with.

As for my long answer...personally, I think this board is way over-moderated. I'm not a WAHM, but I do deisgn and make diapers for Ben just for fun so I have an idea what these WAHMs put into their products. I'm also in direct sales (not diapers), and the key to sales is filling a need. Selling something they don't need is unethical, in my opinion, but selling something that meets a need is just as honorable as buying. With that said, I many times feel bad for the WAHMs because the rules are so strict. If someone asks for a good nighttime diaper and you've spent hours designing one that works for you and has some unique features in comparison to others on the market, you ought to be able to say "I sell product X that might meet your needs because it ----." Personally, I like recommendations from people who have used certain diapers, but if someone designed a diaper to work a certain way, I really pay attention. Take Little Lounging Lizards, for example. She states on her website that her diapers are very absorbant and trim and she shows how she designed them to be that way. As someone who sews and has tried making diapers, I have a lot of respect for that. If I asked about nighttime diapering, I would want to hear recommendations from both users and designers explaining why their diaper might work for me. The more educated I am about a product, the more confident I can feel when I buy it. Not all diapers work for all babies, so there is going to be more than one answer for any given question. Perhaps I'm that way because I want to know WHY something works well rather than just a blank recommendation (i.e. 9 layers of hemp when tri-folded vs. very absorbant diaper). If I were a diaper-selling WAHM, I don't know if I would surf this board because I would have worked really hard to design my products but here I would feel like I have tape over my mouth. In my personal business (direct sales), I do not advertise - I just work with friends of my customers and so forth and I never run out of people to work with. This board, IMO, should be a place where mothers discuss diapers and how they work on their babies - simply mother to mother. It shouldn't matter if you have a baby who just uses diapers that other people make or if you use diapers your design yourself. As long as your suggestions are reasonable solutions to someone's problem, it doesn't matter if you're recommending something you make and sell or just something you've bought and used.

I'm probably really going out on a limb to say this, but sometimes I think that the diapering board should not be the "MDC Diapering Board" but rather the "WAHM Diapering Board" since all administrative decisions revolve around how the board can best benefit those who choose to advertise here. If you're on the diapering board, you'd better discuss WAHM-made diapers. We use diapers I have made, but in the process of making them, I've tried many diapers. So the diapers I recommend are based on my experience with the one I have used. But I can only speak in terms of those WAHM diapers we have tried, not the ones we actually use. Thus I always have to think outside the box and recommend products that I've found which are similar to the ones I've designed in order to help people. I can't say that I've made diapers even with pattern X that work well for us - I have to refer to them as though I bought them from a WAHM. Otherwise I might be "promoting myself" which I am not, and in implying that I bought them from someone else, I'm promoting businesses that sell those diapers. Granted, most moms are not going to make their own diapers, but many WAHMs do custom orders, so if you asked for x layers of hemp, you could probably get it.

Simply put, I think this board is a little too concerned with protecting its sources of revenue, with this whole discussion as a great case in point. Trying to read people's minds and determine whether or not they're spamming for someone they know is simply way too controlling, IMO. Let people talk freely. I know that advertising provides revenue that makes this board possible, but if you are too controlling about what is said and what isn't, the board ceases to be a pleasant place to visit, and thus devalues the advertising done here since less people are coming to the boards. And if you have too much advertising, that gets annoying too. Personally, I click on banners all the time. But I never click on signatures or on ads on that page before you get to the diapering board. Quite frankly, I find that page before you get to the diapering board far more annoying that I would find a WAHM saying "I designed and sell diaper X that might work for you because it has X, X, and X." Again, yes, money talks, but if you start to annoy people with your advertising and become too protective of those who advertise by making strict rules about what can and cannot be said, people will quit visiting your site because it just ain't fun anymore.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I keep reading this wondering if i want to respond.. lol. But I think the main question is being missed.... I didndt get the ipmression that Cynthia was talking about people spamming because they like something ... I thought she was saying if MDC KNOWS that a WAHM asked another WAHM or friend to purposefully spam for her. If thats the case i do think its wrong... and unfair for those that pay for advertising. What can MDC do about it? I dont know if there is anything.... it just sucks it happens. And for those questioning... yes it DOES happen.. or at least used to among a certain group of WAHMs. Whether it still does... I have no idea as I try not to pay attention anymore to that kind of tacky drama









So i guess in the end if its a known fact that someone is repeatedly asking people to spam for them .. then it should be dealt with. Other than in that situation, im not sure that MDC can do anything at all.


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

If it against the rules to spam and there is proof that a member was on another board bragging about how they were spamming for a friend then the member who was doing the spamming should be talked to and whatever appropriate action taken.

I do have a few specific WAHMs that I like to buy from and when someone askes what types of diapers I like I always say the same people. I think we should still all be free to do this. That is what these boards are for...sharing.


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## scrappinmomof3 (Apr 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I keep reading this wondering if i want to respond.. lol. But I think the main question is being missed.... I didndt get the ipmression that Cynthia was talking about people spamming because they like something ... I thought she was saying if MDC KNOWS that a WAHM asked another WAHM or friend to purposefully spam for her. If thats the case i do think its wrong... and unfair for those that pay for advertising. What can MDC do about it? I dont know if there is anything.... it just sucks it happens. And for those questioning... yes it DOES happen.. or at least used to among a certain group of WAHMs. Whether it still does... I have no idea as I try not to pay attention anymore to that kind of tacky drama









So i guess in the end if its a known fact that someone is repeatedly asking people to spam for them .. then it should be dealt with. Other than in that situation, im not sure that MDC can do anything at all.

Well, with that being said, how will MDC and its mods really know that this is happening? If it is bragging on another board, isn't someone in essence narking on that person? And then this all turns into a nark-fest? I think that the issue has been addressed, but it also went off in another direction. Some have already stressed their concerns with this becoming a Big Brother situation. Sure, if there is one or two people who do it, then yes.... as an individual who just paid for sig advertising over the weekend, then I say you should say something to those individuals. But if it is just a general "we know this is happening on X board, but we really don't have an idea how extensive it is," then this all gets out of hand.

ok.... that is all I am saying about this ... for now. This is just the attorney in me coming out... I am not a person for being overly-regulated, and from the sounds of it, I am not the only one.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

the issue isnt HOW the info gets to MDC.... if they were paying people to give them insider information that would be one thing :LOL . But the question is IF they were to find out... what should they do ? If they ignore it..... it encourages people to do it. If they dont ignore, they are too heavy handed.







I'm glad I'm not a mod/admin :LOL


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## scrappinmomof3 (Apr 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I'm glad I'm not a mod/admin :LOL

LOL! I have to agree with you there!!!


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

I can see why people who pay for advertising would be upset over this. But I really don't have any idea how anything about this could be done. Are you going to have watch dogs that lurk over ever single diapering community or parenting community that talks about cds and then report back?

I don't mind people saying they like something if they really do like it. It's hard to tell what someone's intent is if they always recommend one wahm over and over again. Is it because they truly love the dipes and have had good customer service, maybe it's the only wahm they have bought from so they don't know any one else to recommend or is it because they are friends. I think it's too hard to call on this issue and frankly mdc is moderated enough IMO. Yeah it gets annoying to hear the same recommendation from the same person over and over again, but that goes for anyone saying the same thing a half dozen times in any other forum as well.

I don't mind spam on the board since I can avoid that by not opening some posts but if I get spam in my pm box then I'm ticked.


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## jessicaSAR (Mar 14, 2004)

Wow. I just read this entire thread and I sure wish I hadn't. There is way more information here than I want to know. I'm going to stick my head back in the sand, head back to the diapering forum and continue to believe that we are all just having fun...


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I think it's important not to lose sight of the definition of SPAM.

If I know Melanie of ABC Diapers personally and she says, "Hey, could you do a little promotion for me over there since everybody really likes you?" and I either start or reply to threads with "You're looking for Product Y from ABC Diapers - they're great!", that is SPAM.

I don't know how it can truly be SPAM if I'm simply raving about something that is working for me - regardless of my affiliation with the business owner.

I DO appreciate when mamas post "Suzy-Q Diapers is having a huge sale!" because I might benefit. Much like a coworker telling me Frosted Flakes are on mega-sale at HyVee. Gee, thanks. I wouldn't have known that if you hadn't told me!

Much like Aherne, my answer to the best side-snapping PUL cover is always going to be the same. Always. Kathy and I are sharing a brain cell with her post.

Over-moderation can kill a board very quickly. It can also take the fun out of my hobby.

Some are bothered by posts about businesses that don't advertise here. Personally, I'm more put off by posts by advertisers who sell the product they're talking about. There is one WAHM here who sells a product I'm very fond of. I'd never buy new from her because I constantly see her raving about that product. This was/is a problem in the Babywearing forum, as well. I know of other places to shop. I'm savvy enough to make that decision for myself AND I appreciate being allowed by administration to make up my own mind.

In fewer words: I think what you've got going now is working. You'll know real SPAM when you see it and please deal with it accordingly. So far, so good, me thinks.


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## Debsy (Feb 23, 2004)

My question is will you be allowed to deal with this person if the rules at other said board state that you cannot discusss certain issues outside of that board? I think it would be a lot more work for you all in the long run and may end up leaving a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouths if there is needless board hopping going on.


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## Debsy (Feb 23, 2004)

I guess my other thought is that you all moderate and admin here, this is where the focus should be and not elsewhere. I think it would be unfair to put that workload and responsibility on people who already have a lot on their plates.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Well, if this stuff really does happen can't the admin. just deal with it as it comes? Like don't actively investigate it but if it become painfully obvious that it is happening then they can put a stop to it?
How would/do they know it is happening though?


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## Aherne (Jun 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
And for those questioning... yes it DOES happen.. or at least used to among a certain group of WAHMs. Whether it still does... I have no idea as I try not to pay attention anymore to that kind of tacky drama









It does NOT happen there anymore. And let me clear something up. when it DID happen, it was someone posting to say that there was a thread that talked about a product that they did carry and if someone who had used their product could reply if they wanted. it was never a case of "my sales are low, please spam for me".

I know it still happens in chat. it happens...OH WELL. I think it is done in such a way that nobody notices so WHO CARES. It cannot be policed without there being a bunch of tattle tales. Maybe people should be smarter and not brag about it afterwards. (duh people!)

I think MDC is fine the way it is. It would be nice if some of the rules werent so darn strict, but please for the love of diapers- dont make them any more strict than they are. yuck!


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

And let me clear something up. when it DID happen, it was someone posting to say that there was a thread that talked about a product that they did carry and if someone who had used their product could reply if they wanted. it was never a case of "my sales are low, please spam for me".








I must be thinking of a different place then


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Debsy*
I guess my other thought is that you all moderate and admin here, this is where the focus should be and not elsewhere. I think it would be unfair to put that workload and responsibility on people who already have a lot on their plates.

I agree with this. Also, the user agreement for MDC forbids "Posting to invite members to other boards for debate purposes or posting about discussions at other boards. This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities."

This sentiment applies equally well to this issue, IMO. Using information brought to you by tattletales does not maintain nor respect the integrity of this community. Politely informing said tattletales that you are not interested in what is said on other boards or in chat does.

Karla


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## warneral (Feb 28, 2003)

I don't see how it can be fairly enforced. Some will get away with it and that won't be fair either. Heck, I've made "virtual" friends with many of the mommas that I buy diapers from. If I want to rave about them because they're great diapers, I see nothing wrong with it.

Furthermore, I find myself raving about fuzzi bunz all the time. One could suspiciously think that I'm affiliated with MOE but I have absolutely no affiliation with them other than being a satisfied customer.


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## detergentdiva (Oct 16, 2002)

Having read the entire thread I like Tiffany think the whole point has been missed. Maybe Cynthia can clarify, but it seems as though everytime this question comes up everyone gets upset because they think that they can't RAVE about a product or if a question is asked answer that question and mention your favorite product etc.
From what I read in Cynthia's post it is about a friend, usually a wahm, posting for another wahm not necessarily because they like the product or have tried the product but because they are friends.
For example: I am im'ing with a friend and we are talking about auctions. I say I have a diaper on auction and the price is low I'm so bummed, can you spam it at MDC and get the hyena's to go look at it
There is a big difference betweem the example and someone asking about a particular diaper/cover and me posting my experiance, or me receiving a new diaper/cover in the mail and loving it and raving about it all over the boards.
I don't think, and I could be wrong, but I don't think it is the day to day raves and so and so is having a sale, or so and so is stocking that is the question here.
It is the blatant, will you go to MDC and spam such and such for me.
I personally pay for advertising at MDC, to show the numbers, just for MDC alone I pay roughly $625 a year for banner, front page, and signature advertising. This does not include the over $2000 every other month for the magazine.
If I could tell my friend that sales were low, could you go to MDC and spam my product pretty please and she did, I sure as heck would not be investing my money into something that was not worth while since I could get it essentially for free.
This is all just my opinion of course. I love seeing the raves that everyone shares. I love watching the hyena's growl over announced stockings. It is just those wahm-wahm SPAMS, not raves, but covert spams, that I believe are the issue being discussed.
As far as what to do about them, who knows and I would hate to be in the position of having to look at this.


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## sushigrrl (Apr 23, 2004)

I'm a relatively new member. The whole reason I started posting here, was because a WAHM on another board posted a link, because she was suprised and delighted to see a praise thread about her here. I'd never heard of it. I thought it was pretty cool, so I joined. I guess that "spam" brought a new visitor to the site.

First off, I appreciate "sales at X" or "I just got X and they rock" threads. It's informative. If I, as a member, had the feeling that this was really a site about paid advertising, I'd go on to another forum. I'm not paying to advertise here - why should I feel muzzled when I offer an honest opinion -good or bad. Because you know the logical flipside is to ban attacks on advertiser's diapers, too.

I do know quite a lot of other WAHMs from other boards. I like some of their products, and I don't like some of them. Is there a halo effect? Probably. Is that really a big issue? If I posted a "X diapers are great" post, and nobody agreed - the thread would die very rapidly.

I'm sure there's potential for some seller to create a fake ID and praise themselves, but that's really hard to detect. If you've got good proof of it happening, you can deal with that situation on an individual level.


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

Just in from a very needed vacation and took the last 30 minutes to read through this thread *whew* <insert wiping brow smilie here>

I guess I'll try to respond to posts as I saw them:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chemigogo*
I appreciate that this board is basically spam free. I have rarely seen a case where it was true and blatant spamming. I would be beyond angry if a link to a non-advertising WAHM was edited; really angry. I think you all are making more of this than is necessary, really. It just does not happen often enough to warrant such grave concern, IMHO.

I would also be 'beyond angry' if a link to a non-advertising WAHM was edited if only for the purpose you are suggesting. Thankfully that isn't how the boards are run and not at all what the OP was addressing.







This thread is specifically speaking about those members that are 'asked' and that have been reported to us as having been 'asked' and now are following through in spamming. This has occured either as a trade (two WAHMs reinforcing/spamming for the other) or for product (a member advertises for the WAHM, they get free product or a discount).

You say that we are making more of this than is necessary, but that is likely because you are not moderating these forums and do not realize how many posts are edited/deleted/removed for direct/outright/in your face spamming. And please don't think me alarmist or snarky - just addressing your post, in general.







I know when I moderated there were posts of this nature hourly. Seriously - it is a ton of work. This is why it is being brought to the board. We are not just trying to pick on everyone/WAHMs/members. We are trying to troubleshoot a problem and like to bring it to the community in order to get y'all's input.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nada*
Yikes, I've done this before... now I feel bad about it even though they were genuine raves about the product. I usually include pictures of ds wearing the diapers being raved about. I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not but I guess it's sort of an attempt to prove that I'm being honest...

Heck I HAVE DONE THIS!







- excitement for a new diaper/soaker/cover &#8230; whatever. I did this just last week. Heck, I'm showing off Kenny's bum right now on the Diapering Frontpage in a soaker I adore. I believe this is par for the course in a Diapering Forum, but of course we want these in reviews too. However, if you were to almost always ONLY post for this WAHM or were receiving free gifts from this WAHM for posting pictures of your babe, then it would become an issue. KWIM?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
That said, I find it distasteful for the administration of a board to be concerning itself with who is friends with who, and expending effort trying to discern people's true motives in posting. No matter who has sent you what kind of secret information, there is no way that you can truly know why someone posts a rave or stocking information or other possible "spam". Any attempts to try to sniff out true spam are likely to lead to false accusations, hurt feelings, and general feelings of alienation from not only those involved, but those who hear about it on the grapevine.

I also feel uncomfortable that administrators of a board would encourage other members to "rat" on people who admit or claim they were "spamming" by accepting emails or PMs with screenshots or posts from other boards or the like. This seems more like juvenile than adult professional behavior to me, and reminds me of junior high when some loser kid would tell some popular kid, "psst . . . Susie said this about you . . . . " And I don't even want to know about the people who feel compelled to "rat" on other people-- as the "kids" say, they obviously need to get a life.

Karla, right &#8230; we do not ask for, send out spies or otherwise try to sniff-out this type of spam. We have received information from members - sometimes it is from several different members regarding the same member and we are trying to discern what to do about it. There are many times when we have a 'feeling' of repetitive spamming, but don't address it b/c how does one address that? Obviously the member will deny it even in the face of their many posts.

Please know that we do not truly feel it is our concern what happens outside of MDC. Heck, we have our hands full here as it is in our daily grind. That said ... there have been times when a 'bombshell' is dropped in our laps and determining WHAT to do with it has been a most difficult situation. Cynthia and I discuss these things at length - finally, she brought it to you guys as a way for us to iron out your opinion with what we should do with outside information.

Bottom line, regarding spamming/advertising ... I believe you are right. I do not believe that spamming is half the exposure and/or weight as paid advertising in Signatures and/or in the banners, BUT when it is repetitive and when it is drawn to our attention, we are still called to address it. And most specifically - when paying advertisers are concerned b/c a competitor is spammed regularly and they feel they have 'proof' to show it &#8230; well &#8230; that is when we have to consider whether to address it or not - or whether there is grounds to address it. The opinion here has been pretty strong to address it, but how can we address it without utilizing what has been 'given' to us? It is nearly impossible b/c again it is just a recognized pattern of she said/she said ... kwim???

Altogether, much of what you feel is what we feel.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aherne*
Oh.. and in reply to the "spam board" we do have one. Its called the daily diaper. Nobody reads it

Okay, at first this made me laugh, but I did check and actually those get a bit of exposure if you check post counts (just much less than a forum). I think what is being requested is an open Spam forum - like at AW. Is there a desire to change The Daily Diaper to be a spam forum for those with signatures? We have repeatedly been told by those that visit both sites that it is not desired here ... is that the same sentiment?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pageta*
I'm probably really going out on a limb to say this, but sometimes I think that the diapering board should not be the "MDC Diapering Board" but rather the "WAHM Diapering Board" since all administrative decisions revolve around how the board can best benefit those who choose to advertise here. If you're on the diapering board, you'd better discuss WAHM-made diapers. We use diapers I have made, but in the process of making them, I've tried many diapers. So the diapers I recommend are based on my experience with the one I have used. But I can only speak in terms of those WAHM diapers we have tried, not the ones we actually use. Thus I always have to think outside the box and recommend products that I've found which are similar to the ones I've designed in order to help people. I can't say that I've made diapers even with pattern X that work well for us - I have to refer to them as though I bought them from a WAHM. Otherwise I might be "promoting myself" which I am not, and in implying that I bought them from someone else, I'm promoting businesses that sell those diapers. Granted, most moms are not going to make their own diapers, but many WAHMs do custom orders, so if you asked for x layers of hemp, you could probably get it.

Simply put, I think this board is a little too concerned with protecting its sources of revenue, with this whole discussion as a great case in point. Trying to read people's minds and determine whether or not they're spamming for someone they know is simply way too controlling, IMO. Let people talk freely. I know that advertising provides revenue that makes this board possible, but if you are too controlling about what is said and what isn't, the board ceases to be a pleasant place to visit, and thus devalues the advertising done here since less people are coming to the boards. And if you have too much advertising, that gets annoying too. Personally, I click on banners all the time. But I never click on signatures or on ads on that page before you get to the diapering board. Quite frankly, I find that page before you get to the diapering board far more annoying that I would find a WAHM saying "I designed and sell diaper X that might work for you because it has X, X, and X." Again, yes, money talks, but if you start to annoy people with your advertising and become too protective of those who advertise by making strict rules about what can and cannot be said, people will quit visiting your site because it just ain't fun anymore.


Wow. Okay ... well, first I do believe that mass manufactured diapers are discussed regularly here - and by the WAHMs that both sell and use them. Am I wrong in saying that? Has it changed? I can think of several off the top of my head - Bumkins, Bummis, Fuzzi Bunz, Aristocrats, ... many others. They are not advertisers here ... the diapers are discussed here. We are not trying to shut down talk of any kind - we are trying to cut down on spam. We are not asking members to not list their favorite diapers - we do limit WAHMs and self-promotion, but only because at one time it was a huge issue and we were losing both membership and advertising.

Money talks - hmmmm ....not if it does not follow the guidelines on this forum. Paid Advertisers and non-Advertising WAHMs are treated alike in the thread posts. Signatures are the only venue where there is a difference. If it is otherwise, someone please point me. We have even had WAHMs threaten to remove their advertising b/c we have called them out on threads and requested they quit spamming. We do not turn a blind eye to the advertiser. I'm a tad confused by that insinuation, but certainly willing to review it with you ... can you point me to posts or situations where that was true?

*If you are confused up to this point with the OP's intent, please read this:* We do not ourselves go searching. Are you kidding? We can't even finish what we need to do here daily &#8230; no time for sleuthing other boards. We do get a constant influx of reports/etc... from WAHMs and non-WAHMs alike of this sort of thing and have been having difficulty deciding how exactly to deal with this extra information, But FYI we do not spy on other boards, nor have spies on other boards.









We are not calling it spam when you talk about a product you love and adore.

Someone recommending a diaper they like *is not spam*. If you came to this board because someone gave the link to you site out of sincere desire to share you with others here - that is not spam &#8230; that is simply a good review/ a rave &#8230; allowable. And







something we'd love to see posted in Diapering Reviews as well to grow that resource.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie*
I don't know how it can truly be SPAM if I'm simply raving about something that is working for me - regardless of my affiliation with the business owner.

Your definition of Spam matches ours &#8230; this is not SPAM (what you described above). We aren't trying to be iron-fisted mommas. Please read over the guidelines and read the OP and recognize what is being asked/said. Sometimes I think that when we read these threads we get lost in the other members' interpretation of the OP and somehow the true meaning of the thread gets lost because of one misaligned interpretation/understanding. So, if we can just address the OP and disregard insinuations that are not aligned, it would help us to figure this out for you guys so it isn't an issue that arises every 3 months or so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*
Well, if this stuff really does happen can't the admin. just deal with it as it comes? Like don't actively investigate it but if it become painfully obvious that it is happening then they can put a stop to it?
How would/do they know it is happening though?

This is EXACTLY what the OP is asking. This is exactly what we have been doing. This is the purpose of this thread. We are trying to ascertain whether or not the community feels it is appropriate to utilize outside information given to us (not sought out) to 'call' members on outright spamming.

Thank you Karla for addressing this specifically - we appreciate your input. And others - thank you for your input regarding this matter.

If you need clarity, please feel free to ask and I will try the best I can to clarify. And thank you for being open enough to discuss this with us.

BTW: We are not trying to assign any more rules to this forum - if anything we would like to have less to consider/worry over.


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

Oh and please forgive me for any repetition in my rather long-winded post above. As I tried to address each post that I felt might also be addressing 'broader' posts (as some of those posts were repeated by multiple members along the way), there was likely a slew of run-on sentences, incorrect grammar, spelling errors and the like on my part. :ignore


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *detergentdiva*
Having read the entire thread I like Tiffany think the whole point has been missed. Maybe Cynthia can clarify, but it seems as though everytime this question comes up everyone gets upset because they think that they can't RAVE about a product or if a question is asked answer that question and mention your favorite product etc.

I think everyone will not be so willing to rave or make recommendations on the "fear" of being thought to be doing that. So easier not to say anthing that be accused of promting a friend. I am certainly weary now of saying what my favorites are, because I know many of the WAHMs from other forums & here.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
I think everyone will not be so willing to rave or make recommendations on the "fear" of being thought to be doing that. So easier not to say anthing that be accused of promting a friend. I am certainly weary now of saying what my favorites are, because I know many of the WAHMs from other forums & here.

Okay call me weird because you know I am anyway but I have "NO FEAR", if I buy something and like it, to hell with everyone who thinks I am posting for a friend. I say proove it, and when you find out you are wrong. EAT CROW!!! I am not missing any point! I pay for advertising and I do not feel threatened by the small portion of wahms who ask friends to post for them, that is if they actually ask. Going around acsusing people of this is only going to make MDC a taboo site where nobody wants to be.

And if you do not like how I spell............... :nana:


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

As a previous retail store owner I posted to rave about my favorite diapers I put on Meredith and then, Kenny. Without reserve. Heck, I made up haikus about them to make it more fun and to better express my insane enjoyment of silly soft things like kiwi dolls from the fuz mama herself to diapers that literally kicked-butt







- girlfactory! :LOL I imagine if Kathleen had up and opened back up for her custom spots before I collected my deluge of diapering products, I'd have a couple of hers too. And boy do I rave when I'm in love ...























That said ... are there any more solutions directly tied to the OP's post below?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
As all of you surely know we try to keep the boards as free of spam as possible. By spam I mean promotional posts for the benefit of one's personal business or for friends.

The first one is pretty easy for us to recognize and deal with. It's the second one that's more complicated.

We have dicussed this in the past a bit - how to handle situations where we see a member repeatedly recommending the same business or businesses. Now in many cases this happens sincerely, as so many of you pointed out when we talked about this before. A member will be so pleased with a product and the service of the WAHM that her recommendation will be made frequently in response to questions about product or business recommendations. That is acceptable and to be expected and is a big part of what makes Diapering such a valuable and benefical and fun forum for everyone.

However, it becomes more of a concern when we know that a member is friends with the WAHM(s) and we receive reports of this member admitting, outside MDC in posts elsewhere, that she is spamming here for her friends.

We are really tied about how to deal with this. We do not like judging someone's behavior based on what is reported said or done elsewhere. Yet if we are presented with evidence (say, a screen shot of the statement made elsewhere) what are we to do?

What do you think we should do?


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

its sad. i dont know what can/ should be done, but i do know it happens, a lot. i too think the point is often missed in these discussions- this isnt about raving about your favorite diaper or cover.

i know it is done, and done maliciously, without any respect for the boards or for the members that are potential customers. people respond to recommendations because there is a certain amount of trust here. if people on this board tell me about something good i tend to believe them. it is disrespectful to take advantage of that. perhaps the individuals doing this dont realize that- they think they are helping a friend or themselves. but really, we are all part of this community, and it is a shame people would take advantage of fellow members.

yes, you dont have to trust what is posted here. but i think we all like that we *can*.

when i check my email and read the subject lines... : 'get thin eating ice cream!' 'how to win the woman of your dreams' and worse, i dont even open the spam. how awful would it be if i lost trust in my diapering community and would pass over thread after thread because my trust had been broken? melodramatic? maybe, but really i think there is no escaping that this is an issue that effects everyone- customers, wahms, mods, everyone.

i dont know how to solve this (quite) ongoing problem. if someone presents evidence in complaint, how can mdc not respond? how is it any different than any other rules violation? i *strongly* disagree with the idea, posted above, that it is unfair that only some of the offenders get caught and others slip by. you do what you can when you can.

in real life, crimes go unnoticed and crimes get solved. it isnt unfair to those caught that others go free- it is unfair to society that people do bad things at all. it is unfair to the members of this board that people are disrespectful. all we can do is try to stop what we can. just because we may never be able to stop it all doesnt me we shouldnt try in the first place.

tabitha


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tabitha*
yes, you dont have to trust what is posted here. but i think we all like that we *can*.

it is unfair to the members of this board that people are disrespectful. all we can do is try to stop what we can. just because we may never be able to stop it all doesnt me we shouldnt try in the first place.

tabitha

I agree we should do what we can to make everyone feel comfortable and respected but how does one huge forum do that? I do not know. If I did I would tell em how......kwim? But if there is not concrete evidence of spaming how do you prove it? Is it right to take screen shots and have people fink each other out? Is it right?

What you might find disrespectful may not be to another. Some people let things roll off them and do not worry about details. Others worry about all that stuff. IS either wrong? I think not.

As far as not trying, hell I think trying is what this whole post is about. Everyone on the planet wants a peaceful union where we can all feel safe and secure. But in nature nothing is secure, nothing is truely safe either. We can only try and hope for the best.

I really do not think that spamming can be controlled by have fink rats placed strategically on other diapering boards. Even if what those spammers are doing is wrong, two wrongs do not make it right.

I am all for trying to work out a plan but some things are not going to solve this but only inflate it.


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

For the record ... there are no 'rat finks' placed on other boards. :LOL Okay, that is just stinkin' funny to me. We have information that is randomnly and sometimes anonymously sent to us, but we don't have spies, finks, narks, trolls or otherwise scoping other boards.

I am a member at other boards ... and no, I'm not a rat fink.







: There are times I see/read things I wish I didn't/hadn't, but I don't bring it back to MDC.

Anyway ... just wanted that said ... that it isn't with purposeful intent that we receive various bits and pieces of information.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherSanders*
For the record ... there are no 'rat finks' placed on other boards. :LOL Okay, that is just stinkin' funny to me. We have information that is randomnly and sometimes anonymously sent to us, but we don't have spies, finks, narks, trolls or otherwise scoping other boards.

I am a member at other boards ... and no, I'm not a rat fink.







: There are times I see/read things I wish I didn't/hadn't, but I don't bring it back to MDC.

Anyway ... just wanted that said ... that it isn't with purposeful intent that we receive various bits and pieces of information.









I never said MDC itself had ratfinks or narks or whatever anywhere. I said that there is something wrong with taking a snap shot of a post from another board and sending it into MDC anonymously. That is not going to help the situation but only inflate the problems in my opinion.

I am not accusing you of being a ratfink either. I really do not think anyone had malicious intent, it is possible they were not aware of the impact of such an act. I see all kinds of stuff over the net and I would never dream of sending anything to another site to create problems. It is not solving anything.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

OT: Where else do you guys hang out? I thought this was IT - ya know?


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## HeatherSanders (Jul 20, 2002)

Oh Kathleen, I knew what you meant, but this has been referred to before on this thread and another from not so long ago and so I just wanted to clarify.









I also wanted to clarify my own position as I work very hard on other boards to just be 'Heather' and it is very hard as obviously there can be some reserve to posting/etc... when I show up. Which kind of bites actually, but probably is good ... I don't have to really 'see' and hear ALL the dirt. :LOL


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherSanders*
Oh Kathleen, I knew what you meant, but this has been referred to before on this thread and another from not so long ago and so I just wanted to clarify.









I also wanted to clarify my own position as I work very hard on other boards to just be 'Heather' and it is very hard as obviously there can be some reserve to posting/etc... when I show up. Which kind of bites actually, but probably is good ... I don't have to really 'see' and hear ALL the dirt. :LOL

Well thank goodness. I was going to say I inserted foot in mouth again. I am with you, I am oblivious to most of the dirt out there because it just rolls off me like water.


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## Rising Sun (Sep 15, 2003)

To be honest with you, I still don't see a problem.

I can tell you that when I was wrongfully accused of "spamming for my wahm friends" , I was very hurt and upset. I don't understand why there are a few members here who spend SO much time worrying about whether a person is saying that they like a certain diaper because the wahm is their friend or because they really do. In my opinion, that time could be better spent.

If ther is a problem, which I haven't seen, I guess it would need to be addressed. At the same time, people need to realize that wahms are friends with many other wahms, and if they try their stuff and like them, they should enjoy the same freedom as non-wahms and talk about it.

Wrongfully accusing wahms of spamming for their friends causes those wahms to re-think where they will spend their advertising dollars... and they share that with their friends.

Just my $0.02

Teri - nak


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## *~*SewHappyNow*~* (Sep 25, 2002)

Hmm I check the diapering board here daily and I haven't seen any suspiciously spammy posts... so I am not sure what posts you're speaking of.

Perhaps I am not as observant. I'd think you'd need strong evidence to actually accuse someone of spamming, "a screen shot for instance". Because if you are wrong (you, a mod of MDC) you can be sure you will loose advertisers and their dollars, like Teri said above.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hunnybumm*
If there is legit proof that they are doing this they should be delt with the same way you would deal with a WAHM who is spamming her business on purpose, totally know she shouldn't be. By legit I mean make sure there is real proof that it is the same person and not just someone telling their aunt's mother's sister's ex dog's old best friend. Like someone sending a link to a moderater where the post(s) can be read over and discussed. I don't feel a screen shot is sufficent only because I have seen them forged, very nicely forged at that. Though why someone would purposly forge them for this reason I have no clue, but I am sure it can/has happened.

Someone really enjoying the WAHMs product and sharing= GOOD
Someone promoting a friends business when they know they shouldn't then spouting off about it on another site = BAD

Just my opinion... move along, nothing to see here...









I would say a screen shot and the link--since posts can be edited as well.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

My thoughts . . . and you can all be mad, I don't care. Yeah, I post when some WAHM's stock or run sales and yeah, some of those WAHM's are my friends but I post these threads because I OWN their products . . . in several cases . . . lots of their products and when you buy that much stuff from a WAHM you are bound to become friendsly. So you are saying I cannot post about a product I love from a WAHM that I happen to be friends with because that will be looked at as spam? Personally, I think that is BS.

As far as being able to pull a post because so and so from this other message board or chat said that a person was spamming for a friend . . . that seems a little too much like Big Brother watching me for my taste. Maybe a little too much middle school tattle tailing as well.

I gotta stop here before I


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
My thoughts . . . and you can all be mad, I don't care. Yeah, I post when some WAHM's stock or run sales and yeah, some of those WAHM's are my friends but I post these threads because I OWN their products . . . in several cases . . . lots of their products and when you buy that much stuff from a WAHM you are bound to become friendsly. So you are saying I cannot post about a product I love from a WAHM that I happen to be friends with because that will be looked at as spam? Personally, I think that is BS.

I gotta stop here before I









Jaime--maybe it is (and I haven't read this whole thread because it is sooo long so I might be off base-and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) but they are spamming friends WAHM business that might not be offering quality work to get them more business...so more people are getting the raw end of the deal????


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

I also think it is wrong that we can't "spam" and say a we had a bad experience with a WAHM . . but that may be a whole other thread in and of itself.


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## danaalex (Mar 19, 2003)

so, was this ever resolved? did anyone ever come up with a good solution?

to be perfectly honest i don't really care if people spam on mdc and then go tell others about it. i don't care if someone asks someone else to spam for them. i have had people ask me if they could go spam my products on mdc, and i have asked them not to. it embarrasses me to see a rave review about something i have done. therefore, if i know it might happen i ask that it doesn't, if i don't know about it, that's another story. i also don't advertise, and i have no trouble keeping busy.

so, hell, if that WAHM needs the spam to keep her biz open and there is someone that is willing to do it for her, i just ignore it all. as for people that have that much time on their hands to be turning other people in for spamming, well, i have one statement for you, "get off the computer and go spend time with your children!!!!"

heather, i think that turning the daily diaper into a spam forum for wahms with advertising is a FAB idea!!!!!!!!! i'm prolly in the minority, but i enjoy threads with some spam in them LOL. :LOL


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

"get off the computer and go spend time with your children!!!!"
LOL :LOL

I also have lots of WAHM friends, the WAHM community is smaller than you think, you are bound to be friends with those you run into every day. Yes, I use friends products (and wahms I dont know as well). If I like it, I say so, I dont care if the wahm is a friend or not. I think most people would not recommend pure crap (regardless of the wahm/friend status) because it would come back to bite in the butt later. Just my 2 cents.

If someone has a good product/service, they will succeed. If someone sells crap, they wont, regardless of who spams for them. There are also diaperpin reviews. If something looks like crap and their reveiws are crap (even if someone "spams" them), then you will probably get crap. LOL


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## onediaperinmama (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Jess, Kathleen, if this board were to be open to spam would you continue to advertise here? That's not to say that we would permit spam because another big reason for refusing to allow it is for the benefit of the general, non-WAHM community that wants sincere input and not promotional posts in response to their questions.

No, like I said, I hate spam. And I think ya'll do a great job of policing it. But when you get into trying to decipher whether or not someone is spamming for someone, that just makes my eyes roll back into my head. I know how busy you & other moderators are & I dunno... it just seems so... what is the word? BLEHHHH to try to track down passive spammers.


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