# I just got a call from my day care provider



## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

My son is 3. He has never been a good sleeper. I will be honest with you here. We have tried to get him into a bedtime routine since he was a baby, but he has never gotten the sleeping aspect of the routine. Whether we put him to bed at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9, he does not fall asleep until about 10:00, and if he is in his bed during that time, he cries the whole time. DH or I stay with him until he falls asleep. However, we decided long ago that we did not want to spend all evening holding a crying baby/toddler/preschooler, so now we get him ready for bed by 8, I try to nurse him to sleep, and then we try to ignore him/let him play quietly until we are ready to go to bed at 10. Often I will use the computer and he will curl up on my lap around 9:30 and nurse himself to sleep. He and I share a room, which has a toddler bed next to a single (twin-sized) bed. We place him in the toddler bed after he has gone to sleep. When he wakes up, around midnight, he climbs into bed with me. He is nightweaned, so he doesn't nurse again until 6am.

Lately he has stopped nursing to sleep by 10. This means that when DH and I go to bed at 10, DS is still up. On these nights, I get ready for bed and then we get into my bed together and he nurses there, but often still doesn't fall asleep. He wants to get up and play. He wants to eat. I tell him, "No, it is not time to eat/play. It is bedtime." Sometimes he wants to see Daddy (who is in bed across the hall--we do not sleep together) and sometimes Daddy comes in and takes him away so that I can sleep. Sometimes (rarely) he will get into bed with Daddy and eventually fall asleep, but usually he cries for me once he gets to Daddy and I have to decide whether to let DH handle it or go relieve him after a while. At this point, he will usually nurse to sleep. So lately he has not been getting to sleep until 10:30-11. There is clearly a problem with our sleep situation. It is not working.

Anyway, DH had the brilliant idea today of asking our day care provider not to let DS nap during the day, in hopes that it would make him go to sleep earlier at night. This led to the day care director calling me at work to discuss what we should be doing to help DS sleep better at night. She said that he has been disruptive during quiet time at day care--he doesn't even nap there always, and he tends to keep others up--and he has become disobedient in general. She said it was clearly a control issue for him and we need to fix it now before he is 13 and out of control.

She recommends a chart to document his bedtime routine, with stickers if he behaves/stays in bed. She says he should be in bed by 7:30 every night and we should say good night and walk away and not go back in until at least 20 minutes have passed. I said that there is not a chance that he would stay in bed, and she said to make sure the room is safe/there is nothing dangerous he can get into and then lock the door from the outside. After 20 minutes, check on him--put him back in bed, if necessary--but don't say a word to him and then leave for another 20 minutes. She recommended that I read "Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems" and told me about a local group I could call for advice, which she said was "like Nanny 911." She said I would see results within 2 weeks, but then it would get worse again before getting better and said, laughing, that some parents buy ear plugs during this time.

I don't know what to do. I agree that there is a problem. I agree with some of what she said: "Children need boundaries," and "Routine is important" (I agree with this in principle, but it has never seemed to work for our family). But I feel like her suggestions are overall not very respectful. Furthermore, most of it would never work for out family because of how we are currently set up. But I didn't know before today that he was having behaviour problems at day care due to our inability to reinforce boundaries at home. I know now that I need to do something, but what?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I work in a preschool/daycare setting. It is super hard to deal with a disruptive child at naptime when all the other kids are sleeping. We count on that hour and half to get administrative chores or special cleaning chores accomplished. To try to entertain ONE child at a whisper volume as to not disturb the others is very challenging.

Why don't you amp up your son's playtime in the evening? Take him to the park for an hour or more after dinner. Or find an activity you and your dh can take turns doing each evening with him. Wear out his little body so he sleeps. And look, I'm all for the family bed stuff but you've excluded your partner. That's not good in the log haul.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Just a comment on that last point: DH and I have never been able to share a bed. We slept separately before DS came along. We just sleep better apart.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

As a daycare provider, the day a parent asks me to keep a child up from nap is the day they are too old for my daycare. So, you opened that can of worms by making that request.

Nap time is for EVERYONE in the school or program. Where do you think your son is going to spend nap time? Are the teachers supposed to go outside and give up their prep/break times to play with him? Is the whole group supposed to stay up together? Should he sit in the front office? Where did you envision this napless day happening?

The other thing that I know without a doubt, is that kids who don't sleep well, have issues in every part of their day. They throw more fits, they are more easily frustrated, they tend to get more hyper.

There are many reasons kids can't sleep well. Too many to name. But, if that is the only part of your day that you notice any "boundary" or "routine" problems, than perhaps there is a physical reason he can't sleep. I don't know what they would be though. I don't have any magic ideas for helping him sleep better. I have one daycare child who was the WORST infant in the history of infants. He cried NON STOP for nine months. His mom would come in crying some days because she just got to the end of her rope. His older brother was miserable because the baby just would not allow their parents to pay attention to him. When he was nine months old, they (out of desperation and frustration) put up a crib in an empty bedroom. They were at first angry at him, so they put him alone in a room. The baby slept 7 hours. Within two weeks, he was a new child. He needed to sleep alone in a very quiet dark room. His older brother needs to sleep with his parents. (ETA: This baby was extreme. He was the size of a newborn at six months because he couldn't gain weight, he couldn't stop crying to eat, he kept his eyes covered by a blanket at all times)

I suggest looking into sleep methods, and seeing which one you like better. What do you think will work with your family? I know there are tons of books about helping children and adults have a better night's sleep. But, maybe you need a mixture of two or more, or maybe one method will work for you.

You could try keeping him up til 10:00. My own child was home with me all day, and it wasn't a problem for her to stay up late and go to bed when she wanted to. She was able to sleep late in the mornings, so I didn't worry about when she fell asleep. But, since your son is staying awake until 10:00 anyway, maybe push his bedtime back to see if that helps?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Wow, No response to what i said about your son. Only a defense that I got the wrong impression of how your marriage works? I honestly have only met much older couples that no longer share a bed... like retirement age folks.

I'm not much for external reward systems with my own kids either but they are in use in many schools and daycare settings as a way to help kids change bad habits kids get into. So, in my preschool a child might be offered a sticker or some tiny trifle for a couple weeks until the teacher trains into them the "new" and right way to behave and then they drop the reward because its done its job.

You do need to talk to your son about your expectations and train him through play and role-modleing the right way to behave. Good behavior is a reward unto itself. Kids with bad behavior soon don't get invited to playdates and birthdays and special friend outings because the other parents simply won't want to deal with any shenanigans.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> As a daycare provider, the day a parent asks me to keep a child up from nap is the day they are too old for my daycare. So, you opened that can of worms by making that request.
> 
> ...


I had previously heard it mentioned in passing that some of the older kids do not sleep during nap time, so instead they go upstairs to play quietly with the other non-napping kids and I guess 1 teacher stays with them. That was not mentioned today--only that DS disrupts the other kids during nap time because he often refuses to nap himself. This was honestly the first time I have heard this. He had previously been described as "one of their best nappers" when he was sleeping 2 hours at a time, and we asked them to wake him after an hour.

It sounds like you are suggesting that we try the CIO approach to see if that works, but I have been trying to avoid that since he was born. I honestly don't know what to do though, which is why I was posting here.

I am definitely going to try pushing his bed time back since with a 10:00 bedtime be doesn't get to sleep until 10:30-11. Maybe a 9:00 bed time will get him to sleep by 10. We will work on a more defined routine with him in bed by 9. That is the short-term plan unless I can get a better idea.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Wow, No response to what i said about your son. Only a defense that I got the wrong impression of how your marriage works? I honestly have only met much older couples that no longer share a bed... like retirement age folks.
> 
> ...


Sorry! I just wanted to get that out so it wouldn't distract from the situation, although I honestly don't know where I will sleep once DS is ready to sleep on his own. But that is not the issue.

I didn't comment on the other comment because I didn't want to be too critical, but honestly nothing seems to wear out this kid and I have been worried about getting him to wired up before bed time as I think it will make him take longer to wind down.

I agree with talking to him about expectations and consequences. I am unsure about the reward chart, but I am considering it as a last resort. Thanks!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe*
> 
> It sounds like you are suggesting that we try the CIO approach to see if that works, but I have been trying to avoid that since he was born. I honestly don't know what to do though, which is why I was posting here.


No..I wouldn't ever do cry it out with my own child. I just am suggesting you look into different methods and find one, or a mix of several that works for you. Or simply stop putting him to bed before 10:00.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

We have stopped putting him to bed before 10 but now we are going to have to start again. We will experiment and see what works, I guess. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## Vaske (Jan 29, 2009)

I have two night owls who often are up to 10 pm or later, and one early bird who will happily put himself to sleep at 7:30. It seems to be mostly hard-wired. Our first child was definitely high-needs in the area of sleep, which is not something that most people understand. We had to experiment a lot to find out what worked for us, and just ignore all the advice that wasn't helpful.

For our night owls, what we've found is that we need to pay close attention to when they get tired, and then do a streamlined routine to get them into bed with us ASAP. If we miss that window, they will get a second (or third) wind, and suddenly find the energy to stay up and play for a couple more hours. But we have to wait for it--starting the bedtime routine when they don't feel tired just won't work. Still, we do have times where we have to just turn out the lights, tell them to lie down and go to sleep, and play dead.

One thing that stuck out to me was that you only mentioned sitting near him or nursing him to sleep for your bedtime routines. What about reading books to him in bed with you?--a bedtime thing to do together that isn't nursing. You might consider shortening the last nursing of the day. Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution book might also be helpful--what I got from it was the Pantley Pull-Off, where you attempt to unlatch the child before they're fully asleep, to gently help them learn to go to sleep without being directly attached to the boob. I found her charts of how long a child should be sleeping at each age discouraging, though--just hard numbers, with no ranges to cover the variations of normal. My children probably all have ADD, which is linked to fewer hours of sleep at night, but the poor sleep is caused by the ADD, and so is the ADD behavior. So I wouldn't necessarily connect his behavior directly to his sleep patterns, unless you observe that correlation yourself.

Your daycare provider works for you, and while it would be much easier for her if your son napped, you are paying for her to care for him during that time, whether he is napping or not. He's only three, and should be expected to spend most of his time acting like a three-year-old. It's fairly common for children to drop their afternoon nap at that age.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

It also sounds like the daycare provider is advocating a CIO approach. I understand that daycare providers are required to offer nap time to kids, but I'm not going to buy the idea that they need kids to nap because of administrative work or anything else. Children need naps because most kids need naps, not to serve any function of a daycare.









My girls get squirrelly at bedtime, too, and it is hard to get them settled-- at your son's age, or at their current ages (6 and 8). Bedtime is their happiest time, for some reason.

I suggest you start as early as possible for a while. Dinner. Bath. Bedtime. I know, it's like purgatory for a parent to crawl into bed at 7:30!! Get it started as early as possible because at first this is going to take a long time. No TV for anybody in the evening (save it for after he goes to bed). Keep sugars, even fruit sugars to a minimum or not at all in the evening. Remove toys (except lovey) and books from the bedroom. Storytime is in the living room. Bedroom is as dark as possible and boring. Sing him a couple of songs, nurse, hold his hand, but don't budge. If he gets up, bring him back and start the routine over: sing, nurse, hold his hand. Don't necessarily close your eyes: that can upset kids. Sleep is still something mysterious and just a bit scary. Stay your patience (this is where I routinely lost it!) Do not vary the routine from night to night. Start at the same time, and eventually he is likely to shorten his resistance. You are likely to not ever overcome it, because my girls at 6 and 8 are still in High Play Mode after stories, but you can make it reasonable.

Eventually, once he can make it from stories to sleep in a reasonable amount of time, start pushing back bedtime to make evenings less rushed. Engage him in a puzzle or other quiet playtime. Read extra stories. Still no TV or heavy carbs. Eventually you'll be able to get up and enjoy an evening alone with dh. Mmmmaybe. My oldest needs about the same amount of sleep I do, so I'm shooting my own foot off when I creep out to watch TV.

And don't sweat the sleeping in separate beds. I don't think the "retired couple" comment was very sensitive. DH and I are not compatible sleepers, either, and I would love to sleep separately. Maybe more retired couples do because they no longer think that sleeping together is necessary to prove their love and commitment to each other. (Another tomato?







)


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vaske*
> 
> You might consider shortening the last nursing of the day. Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution book might also be helpful--what I got from it was the Pantley Pull-Off, where you attempt to unlatch the child before they're fully asleep, to gently help them learn to go to sleep without being directly attached to the boob.


This is where I found singing helpful. The unlatch was not the last thing they remember before drifting off--they could hear me singing still and were less likely to fuss. In fact, it worked perfectly.

I know of other parents who just let their kids stay up with them and fall asleep as necessary. Some kids need busyness to allow them to be tired--make the setting quiet and austere and they feel the need to fill it up!


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

CIO advocates are often insensitive, so that may explain some of what you were told. Make sure he is properly hydrated. If thirsty too long, thirst goes away, but the person is unable to get to sleep. Getting morning sunshine helps get one ready to sleep at night. Also, if he is hungry he may be able to sleep. You could try providing an after dinner snack.

What makes this so hard is that you are trying to fit his natural schedule with the daycare schedule. I wish you well.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Vaske, thank you for understanding! I agree with the windows. That is why we try to get him ready for bed by 8 (i.e., diaper, teeth brushed, etc.) because if he does start to fall asleep early, we don't want to wake him up by getting him ready for bed. Then I look for opportunities to nurse him to sleep, yes, but DH reads him books during that time too. But I am getting the sense that we do need a more defined routine. A major problem is the fact that we don't get home until 6, so there is not opportunity to do much in the evening. We have supper and on nice days we go outside. Of course he wants to watch videos, and this is something we need to cut down/cut out. But by then it is time to get ready for bed.

SweetSilver, thank you too for your suggestions and the understanding. I agree that what she told me was to follow the CIO approach. I just thanked her for her opinions/suggestions and now I'm trying to figure out how to deal with them. I do not believe he cries it out while there, but apparently does not stop talking. I don't know about the early bedtime, but I understand that the routine has to be the same night to night. This is where I need to focus my efforts. DH and I will have to come to an agreement about how this will look night after night and then tell DS. We can do up a chart so he understands what is expected (I don't think stickers are necessary at this point). But maybe after I am able to get him to sleep by 9, I can try earlier bedtimes following the same routine. I think that is the opposite of what you suggested, but it just seems more realistic to me.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> CIO advocates are often insensitive, so that may explain some of what you were told. Make sure he is properly hydrated. If thirsty too long, thirst goes away, but the person is unable to get to sleep. Getting morning sunshine helps get one ready to sleep at night. Also, if he is hungry he may be able to sleep. You could try providing an after dinner snack.
> 
> What makes this so hard is that you are trying to fit his natural schedule with the daycare schedule. I wish you well.


Thanks! She did suggest a bedtime snack (which would be immediately after supper if he was going to bed at 7:30, as suggested) and he does have a water bottle that he keeps in bed with him in case he gets thirsty during the night.


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## OrmEmbar (Oct 25, 2012)

My 8 year old would routinely stay up until 9:30 if we let her and sleep until 8:00am. It was even worse when she was younger.

Figuring out food sensitivities helped a lot.

Making sure she goes pee just before lying down helps - even if she visited the potty only 20 minutes before.

Getting enough protein eaten in the day makes a big difference too, starting with breakfast.

Often when she could not sleep and kept tossing and turning for hours it was because she was hungry but could not recognize her restlessness as hunger.

She also has a very active imagination and started having nightmares at about 2 1/2 years old. She still struggles with feeling safe going to sleep.

Every child is different and I'm sure you will find what works for yours.

: )


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There are so many things that can cause sleep troubles. You have really good suggestions here, but if nothing works, he could have a sleep disorder or something else physical like an allergy or food sensitivity or reflux or something. Hopefully not.

As for not napping, not all kids that age nap, and I know most daycares require it. I understand the comments that they're working for you and if your son doesn't nap, they have to find a way to deal with it, but on the other hand, I think if there schedule is set up so they have lunch during nap or whatever and can't reasonably accommodate it, their way of dealing with the problem might be telling you to find another daycare. And it might be hard to find one that doesn't require naps. I had one kid who would never nap, and I didn't when I was a kid and I was in daycare and remember how hard that was so I absolutely empathize, but I think the reality of the situation is that they're going to require a bit of down time during that nap one way or another.

My kids have always gone to bed fairly easily. We have a regular nighttime routine and just follow it every night. I put them both in bed at 8, but the older one is allowed to read in bed until 9.

Someone said having a protein-based breakfast can help with this. I don't know about this specific problem, but my more high-needs child was helped immensely and in a number of ways by following that advice. She has eggs for breakfast and never cereal or any kind of grain that early. In fact, she also never has sweets of any sort before noon, so no pancakes unless we're having breakfast for dinner. It is amazing how much of a difference that made in her behavior, up to and including bedtime. It made such a dramatic difference and she is so much happier that she has never fought me on that in all the years we've been doing it.

Good luck with this! It sounds like a challenge.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

My daughter was also all over the place with sleep till she was three and a half. I read every book and we tried every thing. The thing that helped us most was Sleepless in America. I didn't even read the part about night waking because once we committed to two weeks of arranging or lives with sleep as the priority, everything else worked itself out and we didn't have to be nearly as hardcore about it...but you really have to commit.

Two of the biggies were getting up at the same time every day and getting our evening routine down. Bath/books/bed didn't cut it. After dinner, our house had to be BORING. Low lights, lots of repeating what was going to happen - dinner, bath, tv (Little Bear, the most boring show known to childrenkind worked for us but she didn't get a lot of tv so she would sit still for that), singing bed. Bath, tv, singing, bed. Tv, singing bed. Just keep repeating. At bedtime I put her in her space (or if he sleeps in your bed, that's fine), sang the same five songs and then said, "I have to go to the bathroom" and left. I'd come back and sing again, then remember I had to do something else. I Just kept leaving and coming back. By the end of the first week, I could sing her songs once, tell her I had to load the dishwasher and she was asleep by the time I came back. She STILL won't go to sleep if I'm in the room and she's seven! I'm just a distraction...but I didn't like to leave her crying as she is a child that gets worked up instead of settling down with crying. Once she finally figured out how to flip that switch and get to sleep, there's been no turning back. It's such a relief after so many years of fighting bedtime and broken sleep.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vaske*
> 
> Your daycare provider works for you, and while it would be much easier for her if your son napped, you are paying for her to care for him during that time, whether he is napping or not. He's only three, and should be expected to spend most of his time acting like a three-year-old. It's fairly common for children to drop their afternoon nap at that age.


I can promise you, if you tell your daycare provider she works for you, you will be finding a new daycare provider. Your daycare provider does NOT work for you. You pay your daycare provider to take care of your child with many,many other children while you are working. It's a safe place that your child has fun, is well cared for, but they do not WORK for you.

A nanny works for you.

A daycare provider works for themselves. A daycare provider has insane rules to follow that the government has imposed, and they must follow those rules. But, a daycare client can and will be replaced within a few days. Because they don't work FOR the parents.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

...and you are not going to find a "daycare" that doesn't require naps, because they have to offer it, most kids need it, and having one or more children not nap could be disruptive. You could find a shared-nanny situation that might be more accommodating, but of course the expense to go with that would be phenomenal.

Growing up, we came home late as well, and were in bed (not sleeping but lights-out) at 9. Dinner was at 7:30, and there were no kids' shows on TV. Walter Cronkite (zzzzzzzz), 60 minutes (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), and the occasional Star Trek rerun were what my parents watched (I hated Star Trek!)


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## Fortune Teller (Jan 28, 2013)

Things that might help:

No TV/ media after dinner

Turn down the lights after dinner, try to create a soft and quiet atmosphere

A hot (as hot as you can safely make it) lavender bath

A massage with some lavender lotion

Warm milk with honey, or a night time tea with honey (chamomile and peach is one I give my boys)

I would also model a nice quiet activity after dinner as well. Maybe some knitting, or reading a book? I would try to avoid being 'busy' at times when you are trying to encourage him to wind down

Someone suggested that perhaps you should try giving him his own space to sleep? I have heard of those few babies/ children that really do sleep better by themselves in their own room or bed. Not suggesting CIO, but maybe it's just too hard for him to unwind when he has you or your DH right there next to him.


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## 4midablemama (Jul 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> ...and you are not going to find a "daycare" that doesn't require naps, because they have to offer it, most kids need it, and having one or more children not nap could be disruptive. You could find a shared-nanny situation that might be more accommodating, but of course the expense to go with that would be phenomenal.
> 
> Growing up, we came home late as well, and were in bed (not sleeping but lights-out) at 9. Dinner was at 7:30, and there were no kids' shows on TV. Walter Cronkite (zzzzzzzz), 60 minutes (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), and the occasional Star Trek rerun were what my parents watched (I hated Star Trek!)


Just to add a bit to this, because I, too, worked in daycare....
DCP's DO require downtime, for cleaning or paperwork or sometimes, just for a breather, and the only time most of them get downtime is at naptime.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

There have been a lot of good suggestions made on this thread.

The only thing I want to add is that enforcing bedtime for a three year old is *very* different than doing cry-it-out with an infant. A crying infant doesn't know that you're coming back. A three year old knows you're out in the living room (or wherever). You can explain the new routine to them and while they might not like it, they understand what you're talking about. You can tuck them in bed and then walk them back to bed every time they get out, without having a long discussion, just say "time for bed."

I say this now, as a mom with older children: It is ok to teach your young child that they have to go to bed at bedtime.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks, everyone. I have explored food sensitivities in the past and not come up with anything, but I am getting myself checked out for sensitivities next month, which may lead to further exploration with DS.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fortune Teller*
> 
> Things that might help:
> 
> ...


I agree with the no TV after dinner (which is hard since we tend to have dinner right away, but we can work with this rule).

I agree with the soft/quiet atmosphere. Reading will be a good activity for the whole family.

I will look into lavender, and maybe warm milk and honey (although he gets Mommy milk, so I don't know if it is necessary).

As for the sleeping arrangements, I don't think he is able to sleep without someone there. He has his own toddler bed, but it barely stays in it as it is. If we were to leave the room, he would follow, absolutely. No question. I have never left him in his room awake and not have him come out after me. Even if I tell him I'm going to the bathroom, he follows or cries (if it is in the middle of the night and he is too tired to follow) until I come back. So I really do not see how it is possible that he is a child who sleeps better by himself. This is why the DCP suggests locking him in his room to prevent him following us out.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Oh, man, the locking in the bedroom.... does this person have kids? I would never lock my child in a bedroom, no matter the age! Talk about the opposite of loving reassurance! Hopefully her draconian suggestions don't filter into the daycare....


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I wouldn't lock him in his room, but I would lead him back to bed...as many times as it took and probably many nights in a row. He's three, he's not an infant. If you leave the room, he knows you're not gone forever. He may not like it, but that's ok. Things need to change and they can't change if you don't make changes.

Kindergartens still have to provide so many minutes of "quiet rest" or nap time in most states. He's not going to see an end to that expectation for a LONG time if he stays in any kind of school system.


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## mar123 (Apr 14, 2008)

You have received some good advice.

The best thing I ever read was "sleep breeds sleep." This is why keeping a child up at nap time in hopes he will sleep better at night usually backfires.

.

I have three kids and none have ever had sleep issues; I count myself as very blessed. Also, we had some pretty consistent night time routines. My kids were NOTallowed to watch TV until they fell asleep- it is the worst thing for their brains. We would do the bath/story thing- I know there is advice saying toddlers don't need baths every night, but it worked for us because it was the calming time. Until my kid reached the pre-teen years, they went to bed between 7:30-8:30 (I miss those days, LOL) Dh and I really needed that down time and couple time in those early years. It helped us to be 100% attentive during the evening hours because we knew we would have time afterwards (not to mention I get up at 5:00 am every day and needed sleep).

If your child is having serious sleep issues, you might want to check medical reasons and or dietary reasons first. I was always a no-caffeine person. My son was 8 and playing playground football. After practice sometimes, the coach would buy the kids an icee and drink. My son asked for cream soda- no caffeine in it, so I said fine. However, it was RED cream soda- holy crap, he was up for hours, wired on the red dye. We quickly learned that he couldn't tolerate fruit snacks or anything that had red dye in it. He is now 17 and still will put himself to bed at 9on school nights; weekends are a different story, but he is a really good sleeper. My girls need music to go to sleep, always have, but I don't have a problem with that. Good luck.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It is really difficult to follow attachment parenting advice and keep a schedule. The two seem mutually exclusive. I imagine the daycare person's personal feelings about locking a child in a bedroom do influence the daycare. That's beside the point if both parents need to work. Do you have other child care options?


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

You say he napped fine at daycare while he was still napping--for two hours, in fact. How come you got the daycare to wake him up in the middle of his nap (after an hour)? Would YOU like to be woken up in the middle of your nap? Of course you wouldn't! That would suck.

It's possible being woken up in the middle of his nap all the time by these people is part of what made him so cranky. Can you just go back to napping at daycare, since he obviously still wants to? It won't prevent him from sleeping at night; sleep doesn't work like that.

As for night-time issues, you can solve those separately. If your daycare provider asks about that again, just say, "Oh, he's doing a lot better now," even if he isn't. Bed time is not their domain, not their problem, and not their business.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> You say he napped fine at daycare while he was still napping--for two hours, in fact. How come you got the daycare to wake him up in the middle of his nap (after an hour)? Would YOU like to be woken up in the middle of your nap? Of course you wouldn't! That would suck.
> 
> ...


One of us must be missing the point. I thought the OP found out that he wasn't napping at all anymore when she asked them to send him with the other non-nappers upstairs at naptime.

I agree that the bedtime routine is none of their business, though. They/she just used the nap request as an excuse to criticize, in my opinion.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

My last piece of advice is if something does not work for you - not if it doesn't work the first time or if it works five times and on the sixth night you meet some resistance - if it DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU, then throw it OUT! We spent ages trying to work bath, baby massage, and books into our bedtime routine even though my daughter went bananas for baths and books and did not NOT like massage (still isn't a big toucher). We should've had the good sense to throw those out but "everyone" said you "have" to do those things so we kept doing them.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> As for night-time issues, you can solve those separately. If your daycare provider asks about that again, just say, "Oh, he's doing a lot better now," even if he isn't. Bed time is not their domain, not their problem, and not their business.


I agree. This is what I plan to do. I will also ask his teacher whether he is napping again and ask them not to disturb him if he does, using the "sleep begets sleep" philosophy.

As for the director, yes, she has grown children. She did not say that she locked her own kids in their rooms (presumably because she never let them get so out of control in the first place); she just suggested it as something that has worked for other parents that have used her day care. This is by far the best day care centre around. I do not have any better options. They are not typically harsh. They do use timeouts, but that is to be expected when dealing with so many children. I do wish they had told me earlier that they were having issues with him because when we pick him up, usually all we hear is, "he had a great day!" This is usually followed by some reference to how often he used the toilet, so in retrospect, I think they have only been referring to toilet training progress.

So last night was interesting. We talked about how he was going to start going to bed earlier so he can have more energy and listen better at day care and then we went over a sample bed time routine chart (I told my husband to print a few different ones on his colour printer at work but he only printed one, so we didn't get to do the arts and craft project I had in mind to make our own--maybe tonight). We talked about watching no videos after 7:30 and being in bed by 9 and he seemed very happy about the whole thing.

We had supper and then videos (I still don't know how to fit them in before supper), and then I said, "No more videos--it's 7:30. Time to start our bed time routine!" He gladly had a bath, got his pajamas on, had a snack, brushed his teeth, read 3 books, and then we went into his bedroom to nurse. It was actually just after 8:30. I told him that once he was in bed, he had to stay all night and I wasn't going to talk to him because it was time to sleep. After he finished nursing, I asked him to get into his own bed. I gave him a kiss and hug and said I would hold his hand if he wanted, but we weren't going to talk anymore because it was time to sleep. I told him if he didn't go to sleep with me there, I would leave and he would have to stay and sleep on his own. He said he needed me, so I told him to lie down and go to sleep while I was still there.

At 9:00, he was playing with his nightlight (a bug that makes stars on the ceiling/walls) so I said, "It's 9:00. Time for you to go to sleep." The next hour was hard, but as NiteNicole suggested, DH and I kept leading him back to bed. DH was falling apart, saying it felt extraordinarily cruel. DS asked to leave the door open, so we did. He could sit on his bed and see us across the hall sorting laundry. He freaked out whenever I stepped out of his line of sight, so I got a book and sat in his doorway reading. He decided to curl up on the floor to sleep, and I let him. Then he slowly inched his way towards me until he was resting his head on my lap. Unfortunately, I had to send him back to bed at that point and leave his doorway. I got ready for bed, and at 10:00 I went back in there to lie down. He slept in his bed and I slept in mine. We held hands until he fell asleep. He was asleep by 10:15. He stayed in his own bed most of the night. I guess it wasn't a bad start, but I'm sure we will be told otherwise. I'm hoping tonight after the bedtime routine he will lie down and go to sleep with me there so I don't have to leave and do the leading back to bed fight. I'm sure he wants to avoid it as much as I do.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Hmmm.... that nightlight.....

I know it's nearing Solstice, and we are going to bed in the remaining daylight, but I do know that nightlights can interfere with sleep. Perhaps you can try turning it off. That's a big change, though. Maybe "lights out" if mommy or daddy are there to hold hands, but he can have it if you go away?


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

He is scared of the dark. However, when the door to the hall was open, he had plenty of light.

The nightlight interferes with my sleep, so I turn it off after he is asleep, but I turn it on when he wakes up panicked in the night and needs reassurance.

I'll see if I can reassure him with touch alone.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

When does he have to be up in the morning?


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

7:00 is the latest he can sleep. Sometimes he sleeps until 7 and sometimes he wakes up at 6 for Mommy milk and nurses until about 6:30, which is when I have to get up. Sometimes he rolls over and goes back to sleep. Today he followed me into the bathroom at 6:30.


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## AllisonRH (Mar 21, 2011)

We're going through changing our bedtime routine too and one thing I haven't tried yet but thought was such a good idea is to make a story book (this can be an easy construction paper and stapled together kind of thing) that is about bedtime. I think I read about this in the No Cry Sleep Solution too, but I've been reading so much I could be wrong. Sorry for not sourcing it properly! The idea was to make it about an animal that your child likes and mommy and daddy and what the perfect bedtime would look like for your family. A 3 year old would understand it is about them and it is modeling the behaviour you want to see. It's supposed to end with the child animal falling asleep on their own happily and sleeping all through the night because they are so happy and content and safe. Then read them this story each night and then re-enact it. I don't know how well it would work but I think it's a great idea to try.

It really sounds like what you've started is working great. For us, it's been about a month and the change is very slow and not equal - DD goes down much better for DH than for me right now, but when she's not feeling well it still takes forever.

I hope bedtime becomes exactly what you and your family need it to be.


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## Monzie (Jul 6, 2007)

Let me just start off by saying that I feel your pain. I have a 26 month old who has always been a disordered sleeper. Even as a newborn, she just never seemed to need the amount of sleep that "they" said she should. She woke frequently during the night and nursing her didn't always help. Co-sleeping only made it worse. For several months, she wouldn't sleep anywhere but her "cradle swing". It was pretty awful. One night, after weeks of jumping out of bed every hour every night, my husband turned to me and said "Has anyone ever died of sleep deprivation?" It seems funny now but wasn't at all at the time. Plenty of well-meaning people have tried to give me advice but, I can't honestly say that parents who have never had an insomniac child just don't get it at all. If it was as easy as "just let 'em cry" there wouldn't be so many desperately tired parents in the world.

Incidentally, I also have an older child who sleeps like a hibernating bear. He goes to bed without a fuss, falls asleep within a few minutes of closing his bedroom door, and doesn't wake until morning. He took regular naps until he was 4. If he had been my only child, I would have thought I had the baby sleep thing totally figured out. But his sister made me realize that I didn't know anything and had just gotten lucky with my first baby.

I think it comes down to the fact that different people have different sleep temperaments. What works for one kid might be completely useless for another. In my daughter's case, a regular routine wasn't enough. Limiting TV time wasn't enough. Nursing on demand wasn't enough. And letting her cry it out only meant that we got to listen to her increasingly hysterical screams for an indefinite amount of time. She's a spirited little person and does NOT give up. Period.

So, that's enough backstory. Here's what is currently working for us...

- Melatonin. With her doctor's blessing, I started giving her liquid melatonin when she was 14 months old. I give her one third of the smallest adult dose every night, about 30 minutes before bed. It doesn't put her TO sleep but it facilitates the natural feeling of "Okay, it's time to go to sleep now."

- Moving her to her own room. It made me a little sad because I'd had lovely visions of having a cozy "family bed" with my kiddos. But, in reality, neither of them did well sleeping in the same room with my husband and me. It just meant that everyone was awake all night long. And, speaking of her bedroom, I found that it helped to keep it absolutely pitch black. I installed light-blocking shades *and* black-out curtains on the windows and even went so far as to cover all of the red indicator lights on things like her baby monitor with electrical tape. We also bought her a professional-grade white noise machine. I have found that she sleeps longer and better when her room is as dark and quiet as possible.

- No naps. I hate to break it to over-worked daycare providers everywhere but some kids just don't need a nap. My daughter will take one if I fight her about it. But then she rewards me by refusing to go to bed at night or by waking up at midnight and refusing to go back to sleep. Fortunately for me, I'm a SAHM, so I don't have to argue with a daycare about this. But, honestly, if your daycare already has older kids who are awake during naptime it shouldn't be so difficult for them to accommodate your kiddo too.

- Surrender. In the end, we have simply had to throw in the towel and agree not to fight my daughter's wonky sleep patterns. If it's 9:30 pm and her brother has been fast asleep for an hour but I still have to sit and read her "Chicka Chicka Boom Boom" for the umpteenth time, so be it. If it's 4 am and she's decided that's a good time to get up for the day, oh well. I make another pot of coffee, take a deep breath, and tell myself that I'll sleep when I'm dead. It sucks sometimes but it's better than laying in bed and listening to her screaming in the other room.

I wish you the best of luck with this. It isn't easy but what about parenting is?


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

With regard to the nightlight, blue light is more wakeful than red. White light contains all the colors, but a colored bulb in the nightlight may allow him the comfort of being able to see without the interference of the longer light waves. The color of the bulb depends on your child's reaction to the color. Red is ideal for causing the least interference, but may seem scary. Purple might work, though it contains some blue. Green is a restful color, but I'm not sure how it works in light.

Also, if he is not getting any exposure to daylight his natural rhythm can be thrown off more easily. Try to get outside and spend time in the morning sunshine on the weekends to reset his internal clock. And make sure he drinks in the evening. Mild dehydration causes insomnia. On a related subject, sugars increase brain activity, and heighten imagination, which may be adding to his fears of the dark. Fruit and fruit juice do not cause that effect, but cane sugar does.

These additions to the changes you are already implementing may increase the amount of sleep he gets, without tears.


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## FiveZip (Feb 23, 2010)

I totally agree with Monzie. OP, this must be so difficult because you have your work and daycare schedule to consider. I don't have any new advice to add that might work with your situation, but I really feel your struggle. Hugs to you, you are not alone.

I also have a child who, I wouldn't go as far as to say have sleep disorder, but definitely not a sleeper. She never slept the recommended amount for the age, dropped her first nap at 7 months, and nursing every 2 hours (actually until 18 months). At 1 yo, she was often awake playing happily until midnight or beyond, not because she wanted to play and overextending herself, but because her body was not ready for sleep. We also tried bed time routines and advice from people by reading the Mothering forum. Never worked. It was discouraging at times to see bed time routines working for so many kids.

Because I am a SAHM, we "surrendered" very early and decided to let her tell us. When she knew it was "her time to sleep", she would drop her play suddenly and tell me that she wanted to nurse. She would be out within 5 minutes. This way, she never had tantrums surrounding bed time/tired issues, an indication that she was listening to her own body ques. I just waited for her by catching up on email (albeit rubbing my eyes at 12am!), but DH and I never engaged in her play. I followed the best advice someone gave me: Let the child lead you. We continued to guide her about bed time by reminding her around 9pm that night time is sleep time, and had her change and brush teeth so that she can go to bed right when she was ready......3~4 hours later! LOL

By 2, she dropped naps completely (and that wasn't even at the same time everyday), but still nursed at night every 3 to 4 hours. Compared to her friends, her bed time was very late until almost 4. Now, at 4.5yo, she often goes to sleep by 8:30 - 9 (hurray!), but her wake up time is all over the place. I could never count on my morning sleep because she can jump right out of bed at 5:30am or she would stay asleep until the last minute before going to preschool. She may tell me she needs a nap after coming home exhausted from preschool. There are days when she stays up late, either from hunger (one poster mentioned), or restlessness, and she would go back and forth between my bed and DH's. (On a side note, yes, he and I don't share a bed because he has Restless Legs Syndrome.) On those nights, I keep reminding her that the consequence will be being too tired in the morning, and I continue to talk about it the next day when she is clearly too tired to go anywhere (but not going to school is not an option). It seems to work for her since she tries her best to comply. Some nights, she tells me at 6pm that she needs to go to bed and she does. She seems to know when she needs to catch up on sleep, but you can see that bed time routine is not a consistent thing for her.

This is what worked for my DD, although it can be so frustrating at times! And let us not get into stories of her bath time!! LOL

My sister-in-law also had a non-sleeper and bed time was very difficult. In her daughter's case, however, it was clear that she was up, not because she was listening to her body ques, but because she wanted to play.

My DD's friend also is a non-sleeper. She would go to bed at the same time in her own room, but would wake up in the middle of the night and stay up in her bed for hours at a time. In her case, a sleep study results showed that she was extremely low in this particular type of iron (not the common one tested). I'm sorry I don't remember the exact name. Research has shown that low levels can affect sleep in children. She has been taking a supplement for a few months now and finally seems to be helping.

I understand that in my situation, I could afford to do this. OP, I also understand that it is easy to be made to feel as if you are letting your child run the household. You are not. He clearly needs you and you are providing that comfort the best way you can without making bed time a scary thing for him. More hugs to you and I hope you will find your answers soon.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I'll read the rest of the replies later, but I just want to say that Night 2 went much better than Night 1. Because it was a nice day out, he went out to play instead of watching videos after supper. He was reluctant to come in at 7:30 and start the bedtime routine, but we got through it and were in his bedroom just after 8:30 again. No nightlight because there was still light coming in the window around the blinds. (I have been asking DH to install curtains--which we have--since DS was born, but they are still not up. Maybe it can be a weekend project.)

He nursed until he was almost asleep and at 9:00 I did the PPO. He wasn't quite asleep and he wrapped himself around me while I put him into his own bed and told him it was time to go to sleep. He asked me to rub his back (which, I understand, is what they used to do at day care to get him to sleep during naps. He told me months ago that they had stopped rubbing his back at nap time but when I asked why, he said he didn't want them to do it anymore, so I didn't pursue it.) so I rubbed his back and he was asleep within 10 minutes.

He still climbed into bed with me during the night (I can't say when) and woke at 6:20 to nurse until 6:50, when we got up for the day. I skipped my shower at 6:30.


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## sfreed4575 (Jun 3, 2007)

I doubt it is a long term solution or one that you could do every day but my daughter has a hard time going to sleep too and on the days I take her swimming in the late afternoon she crashes in the car before we even get home. Is it maybe just that he needs more intense exercise during the day? I except the swimming which totally wipes us both out... how about something earlier in the day? Is there some sort of class he can take? Is he watching any tv even earlier in the day? maybe that needs to be cut out?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I skimmed the posts and have a few thoughts to add...

First, I think a "whole child" type childcare can certainly be invested in whether the child is getting enough sleep. I don't care for their suggestions either but I think showing concern for whether your son is getting enough sleep is a very good sign!

And, I do think he's probably not getting enough sleep. Do a search for sleep needs at his age. I imagine it's at least 12 hours still.

Interesting article: http://www.parentingscience.com/sleep-requirements.html

One thing I suggest is for this first week or two of your new sleep routine, is that you "mill around" him as he's trying to sleep. Be "potentially available". Laundry, tidying, using the bathroom and etc...whatever household things you can do while he tries to fall asleep. This worked well for my toddler when we wanted her to start falling asleep on her own.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe*
> 
> I'll read the rest of the replies later, but I just want to say that Night 2 went much better than Night 1. Because it was a nice day out, he went out to play instead of watching videos after supper. He was reluctant to come in at 7:30 and start the bedtime routine, but we got through it and were in his bedroom just after 8:30 again.


First, yay, and congrats!!

Second, I think I would cut after dinner videos all together. It think it may be really stimulating and difficult to move away from.

Also, I think I may try for a REALLY early bed time. The link I gave said that the average number of hours for a 3 year old is 13.5. If you get up at 7 for school/work, I think you should try for a 6pm routine. I know that sounds crazy but I've heard a lot of success stories from families with really early bed times and I've tried that from time to time when I think we're not getting enough sleep and it's worked very well.


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## happymommy1 (Mar 26, 2011)

I have not read every comment so my info may be a repeat. Some children have issues sleeping bc they do not need sleep, yes even at 3, or they have food intolerances or sensory issues. I would get a new daycare provider asap, this is 20 yrs of daycare and teaching experience talking, and also remember that everyone has their own rhythm. It can be tough to work outside the home and deal with a night owl, but sometimes that is the hand we are dealt. My sensory children enjoy noise machines, bedsharing, nursing to bed until they self wean, weaned themselves off naps when ready, love to be busy and out climbing or running, plus we try to be flexible.I know this is all easier said than done. I wish you good luck and I hope you find some of the info here helpful.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> One of us must be missing the point. I thought the OP found out that he wasn't napping at all anymore when she asked them to send him with the other non-nappers upstairs at naptime.
> 
> I agree that the bedtime routine is none of their business, though. They/she just used the nap request as an excuse to criticize, in my opinion.


Actually Pek, MichelleZB was right. From the OP:

"He had previously been described as "one of their best nappers" when he was sleeping 2 hours at a time, and we asked them to wake him after an hour"

Is it possible that waking him after just an hour is what's causing his behavior issues? Maybe he still needs the 2 hours of naptime.


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe*
> 
> My son is 3. He has never been a good sleeper. I will be honest with you here. We have tried to get him into a bedtime routine since he was a baby, but he has never gotten the sleeping aspect of the routine. Whether we put him to bed at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9, he does not fall asleep until about 10:00, and if he is in his bed during that time, he cries the whole time. DH or I stay with him until he falls asleep. However, we decided long ago that we did not want to spend all evening holding a crying baby/toddler/preschooler, so now we get him ready for bed by 8, I try to nurse him to sleep, and then we try to ignore him/let him play quietly until we are ready to go to bed at 10. Often I will use the computer and he will curl up on my lap around 9:30 and nurse himself to sleep. He and I share a room, which has a toddler bed next to a single (twin-sized) bed. We place him in the toddler bed after he has gone to sleep. When he wakes up, around midnight, he climbs into bed with me. He is nightweaned, so he doesn't nurse again until 6am.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to offer some ideas because we have had difficult to bed town children, and in fact 10 pm is still a 'normal' bed time here. The youngers also don't get up until 9am though - kids need their sleep.

I would try some melatonin 500mcg.

This is the routine I did:

Snack (toast and chamomile tea works great)

Bath

Quiet hour (a childs book on tape, or Indigo's meditations for kids is great for them)

and melatonin. (Fredmeyers sells a peppermint flavored one that all of my kids adore)

Child tucked in about 30 minutes later...read a story, nurse, etc.

Each night set the routine 10 minutes earlier until it is where you want it. Eventually halve the melatonin and see if it helps still.

The only time there was ever tears during a bed time routine was when the children were jumping on the bed and refusing to lie down. We remedied it with a baby gate and me leaving the room.They were 18-32 months old. After the fourth night when I said it was time to lie down and read a story together, they did it.


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## changingal (Feb 15, 2013)

I think you should talk to his doctor, rule out any physical problems that could be causing his inability to fall asleep. A chiropractor, one that practices Nutrition Response Testing (finds nutritional defiencies that cause problems in the body) will be a great help to you. If his parasympathic (breaks of the body) nervous system is out of balance, it makes nearly impossible to fall asleep. Acupuncture may be a great help to you.
For my DD, putting her to bed later, 11pm, gives her the best sleep. Maybe a later bed time is what your son needs. Sure it would be nice if she went to bed earlier but that's not what works for her. Quality sleep is better than the time she goes down.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I'm a late comer to the thread but I want to suggest cutting out the videos. The fast images are very overstimulating and are probably causing some of the sleep trouble
NPR had a story on.this subject you could probably find through Google. I hope your new routine stays successful.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

My Dumplings were each so different. My personal sleep routine includes an hour or two of reading, and that worked with several of my kids (between bios and fosters, I have gone through sleep issues with several). I read to YoungSon for 2 or more hours a night until he was 12. Yes, twelve. No, that was not a typo. LittleGirl came to me at age 6, with extreme fear of sleeping. Reading settled her down to sleep, and was a great bonding time. I admit this didn't help with her night waking. LittleGuy preferred to sleep on the floor of my room, after reading about 30-60 minutes. BigGirl moved out of the family bed at age 3, and and has never needed to be told to sleep. I do sort of regret that she didn't want to share sleeping or reading together very long.

I never made an issue of bedtime, or acted like I cared if children slept. With the bios, in the family bed, we just lay down together to read. I guess I would have read all night if sleep hadn't come. With foster kids, cosleeping isn't allowed, so I kept a rocking chair in kid's room. Child would be in bed or on my lap. I was pretty willing to read for hours. Gradually, the time decreased. I miss that special close bonding of reading together at bedtime. I read the whole series of Little House on the Prairie, Harry Potter, Series of Unfortunate Events, and many others. We especially liked series, for the continuity. When we were at the picture book stage, I got 100s of books from the library, to avoid getting bored myself. Yes, I still had to read Chicka-Chicka-Boom-Boom and some others 1000s of times. But I genuinely enjoyed that time, and frankly, I miss it with no Littles around anymore.

A funny aside: when the bio-Dumplings were toddler/preschool age, we lived very near the equator, so the sun went down around 6, year 'round. I had them convinced that people went to bed when the sun went to bed. Just a fact of life, and they accepted that. But it backfired when we moved to high northern latitudes in the summer. The sun was still up at 10 or 11! So much for that plan (manipulation)!









Well, this post has turned into more nostalgia than advice. I guess the reason this worked for me is that the purpose never was to "get the child to sleep", but rather a sincerely preferred activity we shared. I am sure the kids picked up on that, so there never was a bedtime battle at all, even if a child didn't sleep much. I figured laying down, relaxing, was nearly as good as sleep.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Wow, this has been a popular thread!

We have been successful in getting to sleep by 10 every day for about a week now. (I say we because I usually go to bed with him). We have virtually eliminated the nightlight. Overall I am hesitant to talk to the doctor about my son's sleep because he told me when DS was 6 months that he would never learn to sleep through the night if I didn't immediately start putting him into his crib at 7pm and leaving the room until 7am. However, I will ask him about melatonin.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with his main teacher (rather than the director I spoke to last week). I called her to assess his current napping situation as well as his general behaviour. She said he has been not wanting to tidy up lately and crying easily, but overall he acts pretty normally for a 3-year-old. As for napping, she said it takes him a while to settle down and he tends to talk/sing and try to get out of bed if she is not sitting beside him to keep him down, but most of the time he falls asleep eventually. It is only occasionally that he doesn't sleep at all. I asked how long he sleeps and she said usually they wake him after an hour at my request. I told her not to do that anymore and she said they wake everyone at 2:00 regardless of when they fall asleep, so she will let me know whether they have to wake him or whether he goes back to sleeping the whole time again (today he fell asleep at 12:30, so that will be 1.5 hours). She also sympathized with the sleep situation, saying her 8yo son has always been a late sleeper and she gives him melatonin to get him to sleep by 9 on week nights and lets him sleep on his own schedule on weekends. I do feel much better after talking to her than I did after talking to the director last week.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Another thing to ask about: do his off-days have the same sleep schedule as his school days? Just checking. They should be in your situation, if they aren't already.

I also wonder about his sensitivity to fruits and sugars? Some kids find anything high in any sugars--natural or otherwise-- far too stimulating. I think someone mentioned carbs a ways back. Food can enhance sleepiness, or rev people up-- I think carbohydrates can work both directions. Something good and warm to the tummy-- like "Sleepytime tea"-- can add to sleepiness. And perhaps try a sleep pillow-- chamomile, lavender, mugwort and mint (I think that's right.)


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Mint is stimulating. Chamomile and lavender are good. Not sure about mugwort.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Mint is what I wasn't sure about. Mugwort is a traditional ingredient in sleepytime pillows. I wouldn't put it in tea for children.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Chamomile has antibiotic properties, so, like chlorinated water, it attacks or elininates helpful bacteria.


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## ColoradoMama626 (Apr 30, 2011)

I apologize if this has been said I didn't read all the responses but please do not lock your child in his room. From a legal standpoint that could easily be charged as child abuse. I cannot believe that was a suggestion. Perhaps your child is very smart abd simply didn't need that much sleep. Yes that's a drag for you and them but smart kids just don't need that much sleep. Just a thought.


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## OrmEmbar (Oct 25, 2012)

Mugwort strengthens/enhances dreams. I do not put this in children's dream pillows. . . . they are already strong dreamers and mugwort can strengthen bad dreams as well as good ones.

While Chamomile is known to be an effective anti-biotic, it is not something that will disrupt the good bacteria in your gut if taken as a tea. The aroma from a sleep pillow is only calming.

For a young child I would try lavender and chamomile flowers and maybe rose flowers in a pillow, but only if that child likes the smell. A 3year old's sense of smell is very sensitive and aroma likes/dislikes are very personal.

My 8 year old heard that garlic is used to keep bad things away, so she started taking a head of garlic to bed with her. Seems to keep the bad dreams away for my eccentric child. Who would have thought?


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Why would chamomile not attack helpful bacteria? An antibiotic is an antibiotic.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Chamomile has antibiotic properties, so, like chlorinated water, it attacks or elininates helpful bacteria.


Can you provide a source to support this?


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrmEmbar*
> 
> My 8 year old heard that garlic is used to keep bad things away, so she started taking a head of garlic to bed with her. Seems to keep the bad dreams away for my eccentric child. Who would have thought?


Sweet!

Thanks for the better info on sleep pillows. My herbal knowledge is rusty anymore.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> Can you provide a source to support this?


Which? The antibiotic properties of chamomile, or why chlorine is added to tap water?


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## RebeccaJF (Feb 12, 2013)

Just a thought, I didn't read all the comments here so maybe this has already been mentioned, but putting soothing music on before bed and while your son is falling asleep may be helpful. Specifically, harp music has been found to be extremely soothing for children. I suggested this to my husband whenever one of our babies is fussy because they want me and I'm not available. He has mentioned over and over how quickly they quiet down.

I understand your frustration from the lack of sleep or interruption of your time with your husband. I've had to deal with this issue off and on. Consistency is so important. When we got our latest foster children, they were very disruptive to the established routine of our two bio sons (the three boys shared a room which didn't help). It took around 2 months of us having to intervene and restate the rules around 10X a night, but eventually they got it.

Be encouraged - this is really, really hard, but it will eventually pass - and you'll have a boatload of things to suggest to a mom going through something similar. Celebrate the little victories when they happen!!!!


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## Complexnatural (Oct 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe*
> 
> Thanks, everyone. I have explored food sensitivities in the past and not come up with anything, but I am getting myself checked out for sensitivities next month, which may lead to further exploration with DS.
> 
> ...


My oldest son did not sleep during the day from the day he was born. He was up to 11 pm every night. Always happy but not tired. If we put him in the baby swing or he rode in the car, he would have a short power nap and then be up even later. As a newborn he would only nurse for a bit and any little distraction would get his attention and the nursing would stop. He was gaining weight very slowly.

When he was 10 months old, I took him off foods with salicylates (a lot of fruit, tomatoes, cucumbers) and he napped the next day for the first time. After that he was a good sleeper. I nursed him exclusively until he was 6 months old and the naturopath said he was getting the salicylates from what I was eating. You can google the foods with salicylates.

Also, the book "Raising your Spirited Child" helped me immensely. It has many good ideas, one being keeping the same routine EVERY single night.

Good luck!


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Sorry, I haven't read all the replies, so I apologize if this has been said. My DD1 is a bad sleeper. Lately I give her a Bach flower remedy called Rescue Sleep liquid melts. They are homeopathic and perfectly safe. I also give her a bath with Epsom salts. It seems to help her relax.


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## lovemylab (Jan 7, 2013)

"As for the sleeping arrangements, I don't think he is able to sleep without someone there. He has his own toddler bed, but it barely stays in it as it is."

I am no sleep expert but I can tell you what worked for my two year old. She got to have a adult bed (full size) all to herself. We did co sleep until two but eventually I had enough. And she wasn't sleeping good up a bunch o times in the night. I still lay with her initially to get her to sleep but then I leave. If she wakes and calls for me I go in to tuck her back in and that is all. Ever since then she sleeps all night most of the time.


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## OrmEmbar (Oct 25, 2012)

Off Topic - just answering pek64's question

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Why would chamomile not attack helpful bacteria? An antibiotic is an antibiotic.


Sorry I didn't see this earlier.

Antibiotic effects are often determined by the mechanism through which a substance kills bacteria (research bactericide and bacteriostatic) AND how it comes in contact with the bacteria. Pharmaceutical antibacterial meds and plant-based antibacterials often work in different ways. Regardless, I would say that even putting a dose or two of pharmaceutical erythromycin in a pillow and then sleeping with that little pillow would not necessarily disrupt one's gut ecology. I, personally, wouldn't choose to sleep with an antibiotic medicine like that, but I also would not assume it would wipe out all my beneficial bacteria if I did so. Your example of chlorine - chlorine dioxide is an antimicrobial through oxidation. It needs to come in physical contact with bacteria, where it oxidizes certain components of the bacteria's cell wall - literally "stealing" electrons from those cell wall components. Then the bacteria basically loses the integrity of its cellular membrane and cannot survive. Luckily our skin has ways to counteract oxidization - but chlorine exposure does take its toll.

If you are really interested -

Plant-based antibacterial effects are through a variety of mechanisms and many antibacterial plants basically change the terrain of the gut, allowing healthy and balanced bacterial colonization while inhibiting overgrowth of any one bacteria. That is how you can get a selective antibacterial effect. Our bodies are living and have a have a way of moving towards health and wellbeing, given the proper nutrition and "tools". We are not passive tissues just waiting to the right substances to fix everything (or mess it all up). The essential oil of chamomile is what is usually considered a broad spectrum antibacterial - effective against both gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. This article has some good info and references about 1/3 of the way down the page if you want to learn more and are interested in scientific studies.

http://pharmacologia.co.uk/abstract.php?doi=pharmacologia.2012.348.351

Just remember that essential oils are highly concentrated forms of medicine - you would have to drink gallons and gallons of tea to get the same amount of medicinal effect as 1 drop of essential oil.

A handful of dried chamomile flowers in a pillow will lend the soothing sedative effects of chamomile (through aromatherapy/smell) but would do little in the way of anti-bacterial activity.

Hope this info helps.


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## Buddhamom (Jan 16, 2007)

FWIW, Dr. Sears talks about how a child sleeps better at night if they have a nap and I have to agree. On the rare day that my baby doesn't nap, she is up all night on and off and restless when she is asleep. If she takes her usual 2 hour nap she sleeps like a gem. But this is my experience.Could he be trying to make up for lost time with you since he is in daycare? I have never had my kids in daycare so I am just thinking.


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## twockenfuss (Jun 3, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> I can promise you, if you tell your daycare provider she works for you, you will be finding a new daycare provider. Your daycare provider does NOT work for you. You pay your daycare provider to take care of your child with many,many other children while you are working. It's a safe place that your child has fun, is well cared for, but they do not WORK for you.
> 
> ...


NSmomtobe,

Is a nanny an option for you? It sounds like your son does have more energy than he's able to expend in a daycare setting. Even hiring a high school student for the summer that could pick him up from daycare at 4 rather than 6 might help.


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## farrah skye (Dec 8, 2004)

i think ur a good mom.. i do not know what it is w co-sleeping and nursing passed two, but every mom i have met had this promblem too. in some way. i went though it too. i think just be firm with your son. i know when i get off the computer and get that tv off, my younger ones are out. good luck!


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

Sorry, I cannot read through all posts. My kids are very bad sleepers, some kids just need less sleep than others (one of my professors had a four year old that did not sleep more than four hours ever 

My DD especially had a difficult time to calm down in the evening. I tried Melatonin, and it worked like a charm. I think there are just kids, where there are some hormonal disbalances, and the melatonin (we used 0,5 mg dragees - which does not even count as a medication here)

The melatonin told her that it was bedtime, and she fell asleep easily. She needed it a couple of years, and now (maybe school routine?) she doesn't need it anymore.

DS is different. Difficult to fall asleep, but he needs enforcement that it is INDEED BEDTIME. I need to lie next to him to keep him calm. Calming noises help. He has SID, so no noises tend to let his sensory system go beserk to create input. So noises such a baby music or someone calmly working next to him helps. He would never fall asleep if I would surf the internet, to interesting. 

He had to be held by me when he was younger to fall asleep, because his thrashing would keep himselp awake. He is dead tired at bedtime though, so I "just" need to keep him quiet for a couple of minutes and he is in Oz.

There are sleep disturbances that have a medical reason. Maybe you check with your ped?

Sorry if I repeated something.

Love.

P.S. This nap thing at daycare is really weird. Here in germany is a "sleeping" group for kids who sleep and a "quiet time group" for kids who don't. So, if the kids can't or won't sleep, no problem.


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## callahansmama (Mar 21, 2011)

Wow! I can't read all the responses but nextcommercial was definitely one person who wasn't here to support you in finding a solution.

I am both an early childhood educator and elementary teacher and have worked in childcare for many years. Nap time allows the day care provider to get stuff done, but wait a minute, that's not your effing problem! In my opinion, child care is there to care for and educate individual children with individual needs. I have a 3 yr old son as well. He thankfully sleeps well after frequent waking throughout babyhood but he doesn't take a nap unless he is up at an ungodly hour. He wakes between 6 am-6:30 and goes to bed at 7. With a nap, bedtime is horrific. I am currently at home with him and his baby sister but when he goes to day care in the fall, you can sure as hell bet that I will let them know he's not napping and he's not sitting on a cot for. 2 hrs doing nothing either! Here in Canada, they only have to rest for 30 minutes and the have to be provided with a quiet activity. They DO work for you.

What I would suggest is maybe some yoga, stretching, massage (message me if you want some cute ideas about massage songs/games that he might like) to wind down, stories, no TV for like an hour before bed. Maybe a snack of oatmeal or whole grain toast. Maybe a nice bath with some lavender before the wind down. I sometimes use this night night balm from Badgering my kids. Maybe try to keep nursing until he is calm and more receptive to falling asleep. Lights down low. I would do the lead him back over and over again thing for several nights even though it will be exhausting. I would try to start the whole routine very early and about 11-12 hrs after he wakes up in the morning. If he doesn't fall asleep nursing, I would stay for a bit and the day you've got to check the lau dry or go pee or something and then come back,keep doing it but then stay away for longer until he falls asleep before you get back. The trick with that is to practice it a lot of times where you DO come back so you build that trust. Lots and lots of praise for staying in bed and just keep explaining that in order for him to learn and grow he needs sleep,that you have jobs to do in the evening and that you also need sleep to be a good mama. I hope things get better for you soon!


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

I just remembered a bedtime "ploy" that worked with ElderSon at around your child's age. Although we co-slept, I didn't always want to go to bed at his bedtime. After whatever bath/reading/singing routine we had at the time, I would get up and promise, "I am going to leave for ten minutes. If you will lie there for ten minutes with your eyes closed and your mouth closed (no calling for me), I promise I will come back in and check if you are awake. If you are awake, I will read another book. If you are asleep, I will come get in bed in 2 hours". He never made it the ten minutes with his eyes closed without dozing off. And I got a little "me" time! We co-slept for many more years, but I didn't have to go to bed at his bedtime unless I wanted to.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> I just remembered a bedtime "ploy" that worked with ElderSon at around your child's age. Although we co-slept, I didn't always want to go to bed at his bedtime. After whatever bath/reading/singing routine we had at the time, I would get up and promise, "I am going to leave for ten minutes. If you will lie there for ten minutes with your eyes closed and your mouth closed (no calling for me), I promise I will come back in and check if you are awake. If you are awake, I will read another book. If you are asleep, I will come get in bed in 2 hours". He never made it the ten minutes with his eyes closed without dozing off. And I got a little "me" time! We co-slept for many more years, but I didn't have to go to bed at his bedtime unless I wanted to.


Believe it or not, I have been trying this lately and it is working! You probably do believe it, but I was very surprised. On more than one occasion, he has fallen asleep without me in the room. At first I was checking after 5 minutes, and he was still awake, so I started waiting 10 minutes and he is either asleep or close to it. I rub his back and he is out.

I also found a CD of calming music that I loop for him until I am ready to go to bed myself.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

This is an oldish thread now, and you seem to be getting through things, and I haven't read all the replies, but...

I'm going to be annoying and add one more thought in case it hasn't been said. Does he HAVE to go to sleep? Or does he really just need to stay in bed? I tell my kids that maybe they aren't tired, but their bodies need to rest, and mine certainly does. So, they have to stay in their beds, and they can't have toys. I don't care if they go to sleep or not. (They do, usually. My 6yo is taking a nap as I type. We have had several late nights and he is being awful, so I made him lay down. Bam. He's out.)


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## leahd (Aug 15, 2009)

My son has trouble sleeping too. His day care provider should be offering what is best for your child. At my sons school the kids have to be quiet during rest, but they can read if they like. I have found some cds that have guided sleep meditations for kids, these have helped us many nights, especially when he is really fighting sleep.


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