# Tight Foreskin



## catmuse11 (Jul 6, 2004)

Hi,

My 4 1/2 year old son's foreskin still does not retract. We met with a urologist who suggested circumcising him. She also said it would be okay with her if we wait until he is six, but, if it does not loosen by then, she said she would definitely suggest circumsizing him. I realize, of course, that we could just refuse, but she also said a non-retracting foreskin can be very painful come puberty and that it can lead to an increased risk of penial cancer. The research I've read is, not surprisingly, conflicted. One group says it'll eventually loosen prior to puberty--another says it is inhumane to let it go that long.

I guess my main question is: do any of you have any tips for loosening a tight foreskin?

Thank you.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

At 4yo he is supposed to have a tight foreskin. The avg age for retraction is 10.5yo and many boys do not retract until they are well into puberty. The urologist you saw is not up to date on her intact care unfortunately that is a common problem they are only taught about cutting off the foreskin not about how the foreskin works. At this age no one should be trying to make him retract it can hurt him and cause real harm.

She is a dangerous woman hurting many boys needlessly with her advice.

At 4yo my ds could retract at all he is 6 now and is about 1/2 way retractable, I know because I have seen him do it I dont touch it or allow anyone else to do so and he is 100% normal.. Many others here will tell you the same thing.

This link is by a Dr. who does know about the intact foreskin and how to watch out for Dr's who are not http://mothering.com/health/protect-your-uncircumcised-son-expert-medical-advice-for-parents
Quote:


> -Your son's foreskin is too tight. It doesn't retract. He needs to be circumcised.
> 
> The tightness of the foreskin is a safety mechanism that protects the glans and urethra from direct exposure to contaminants and germs. The tight foreskin also keeps the boy's glans warm, clean, and moist, and when he is an adult, it will give him pleasure. As long as your son can urinate, he is perfectly normal.


I hope you take the time to read the article and please contact the urologist and let her know how disappointed you are that she almost caused your son harm for no reason.

About the cancer that is not accurate. Having a foreskin does not make it more likely that he will get penile cancer, STD's are the deciding factor in that. I can provide you with links on that if you wish.

The human body is made to work on its own schedule and if left alone 99% of the time it will do the job when it is supposed to. It is when you start messing with things that things go wrong.

Remember the number one rule of intact penis care is never retract and never allow anyone else to try to do so.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Wow, what an American issue! (As in, the entire rest of the world wouldn't perceive that as a problem.) My 6 year old isn't retractable at all and nobody's worried--not us, not him, not our doctor.

The foreskin continues to loosen gradually over time. He's got years and years to get there. The reason it needs to retract, after all, is for sexual intercourse. Your child's genitals don't need to be ready for sexual intercourse at 4, or 6, or 8, do they?

My advice to you is to find a more educated doctor. Yours is making medical recommendations based on cultural beliefs, not medical facts.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Please don't get him circumcised over this. Your son's penis is doing what it needs to do right now, which is passing urine. Many boys don't retract until they are much older, including the teen years. Between now and then the foreskin will naturally loosen because of the child playing with and stretching it on his own and erections. Many boys don't have natural separation until they are older than your son. If you are in the US, many doctors aren't educated on normal foreskin anatomy and function. US doctors are typically trained to just surgically remove it and don't know what "normal" is. Like a pp said, it's an "American" problem because doctors in other parts of the world don't see a non-retractable foreskin at 4 or 6 or even 13 as a problem.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Catmuse, The replies from the pps are all good advice. Your urologist is not educated on the form, development or function of foreskins, and through her ignorance is harming little boys. It is very fortunate for your son that you are a caring mother who came here to ask questions. You might be interested in reading www.cirp.org/library/normal and it would be a favour to many other little boys if you passed it on to your doctor. The bottom line is that some boys do not achieve retractability until well after puberty, and although rare, there are men who happily live their lives with a foreskin that does not retract.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Of course a uroligist is going to recommend surgery - they are the ones getting paid for it, right?

If your son really did have phimosis (let's say he's 17 and still doesn't retract), the first treatment option would be application of a steroid cream - not surgery. The next option, after steroid cream didn't work is a small slit in the foreskin - not full circumcision. I would run - not walk - from a doctor who recommends invasive surgery before trying any other treatment option.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

This is such a great example of how misinformation is transmitted to parents. Here you have a urologist, who you would think should be intimately acquainted with the form and function of male genitalia, including infants, making an incorrect diagnosis of phimosis. Unbelievable. I would tell the urologist to go back to school and take a class on the difference between pathological and physiological phimosis. Unbelievable. The cynic in me believes that Drs must be making tidy sums from circs.

As for tips on loosening the foreskin, as long as he is not having any problems with urination or infections, or any pain or discomfort, then it does not need to be loosened. If he gets to adolescence and the foreskin is still tight, then you can go back to an educated Dr, and ask for non invasive help. There are so many things you can do before a circ is even thought about.

Peter


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## Ivy53 (Feb 24, 2011)

Hi, I don't mean to hijack this thread and I'll make my own thread if I need to but I just thought, if you guys are already talking about this here it seemed silly to make a new thread.

Now, I have a very similar problem to the OP except my son is almost 5.5. And his foreskin isn't just tight, it's...I don't know. How tight is too tight? I cannot see the glans at all when I tell him to pull it back as far as is comfortable for him. His pee comes out of a *tiny* pinhole in his foreskin that isn't even quite in the center of the tip of his penis. I took him to a urologist because he's having problems with multiple accidents a day and he said he had to be circumcised, that his foreskin would never retract on its own, pointed to an area below the pinhole opening and said it was white because it was scar tissue and that it would just get worse and could even completely close, making it so he couldn't urinate at all! I don't understand how the "white area" was scar tissue...it looked white the same way the skin over your knuckles looks white (or much lighter than the surrounding skin, anyway) when you make your hand into a fist and squeeze. The "white" area looked like the area the frenelum is, though I admit my knowledge of penile anatomy is fairly limited...

Anyway, I am going to call a nearby doctor from this list of intact-friendly pediatricians to get a second opinion. I read all this stuff a few months ago and I tried not to worry but this guy kind of freaked me out. He agreed with me that 5 year olds can't all retract their foreskins yet but that he had a functional issue that was serious and needed surgery...and it is such a tiny opening....


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Even if his foreskin has scar tissue a full on circ is the last thing needed. Simply removing the tip of the foreskin will allow for retraction and keep much of the foreskin intact. If you stretch any skin that isnt ready to be stretched it will turn white so that in itself wouldnt concern me at all. The first time the Dr tried to retract my ds when he was 2mo I saw that white area yet now that ds is almost 7 he can almost fully retract. The second time the Dr. tried to retract him at 4m I stopped it before it could happen so I dont know what it looked like then.

Now having said that at 5.5y many boys have the pin hole but by their teen years they can retract with no issues some have to use steroid cream and stretching to help but many do not.

I wouldnt even consider circ on a child for any reason simply because so much can change so fast when the hormones of the teenage years hit.

I am glad you are going to see an intact friendly ped but keep in mind even if he says something similar it is better to wait until puberty before doing any surgery for several reasons including the fact your ds's penis will be larger and they can have a much better idea of how much skin he needs to have a comfortable erection.

As long as he is not having pain while urinating or infections then there is no rush.

Having accidents has nothing to do with circ or intact it is a developmental thing or if he had a UTI if might cause it.

I am assuming you took him thinking he might have a UTI since his foreskin would have nothing to do with that kind of thing. Cutting off the foreskin of a boy who has accidents would be like cutting off the labia of a girl for the same reason neither makes any sense at all.

For him to have scar tissue at this age he would have had to either have been forcibly retracted over and over again or he would have had to have infections on top of infections. Could the first have happened? Since the second you would have known about it because that kind of infection is painful and very visible.


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## Ivy53 (Feb 24, 2011)

Well part of the reason I'm definitely going to see this ped is because they did a test on his urine (from before he was examined) and they said there were traces of blood in it. I've never had a doctor tell me this before so I don't know if this is a new thing or what. The urologist today said he wasn't even sure if it was coming from his urine, that maybe it's coming from his penis/foreskin, and that his suggestion was to circumcise him and then do the test again. He did do an u/s on him and confirmed his bladder was empty, so at least he can empty his bladder (which was what his ped was concerned about with the accidents).

Anyway this guy said he only does full circumcisions because anything else was ugly, and why should we make our child an "in between" that isn't circumcised but also not intact, and that would be a terrible thing to do to a child, and that every time he peed that it would cause more infection...and that I shouldn't wait for years and years to get it done because 1. the bit about the infection maybe closing the hole altogether (I've never noticed him having an infection?) 2. scar tissue is going to disfigure the glans if I leave it like this a long time and then, when he eventually has to have a circumcision, again, it will be ugly. Sigh. I would probably get a third and fourth opinion even if this intact-friendly doc thought he needed to be circ'd but hopefully he'll tell me something sane. I hate feeling like I'm not taking care of my kids correctly and that's how this guy made me feel.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Dang that Dr. is dangerous to little boys







He couldnt be farther from accurate if he tried. There is no way scar tissue on the foreskin can disfigure the glans. That is just silly talk.
i
Ugly really?? yeah I have seen pics online of men who have just had the tip removed and you cant tell the difference between them and an intact penis. Even the ones with the dorsel slit look very similar with only a little V mark at the tip where the cut was made. IMO it is better to look a bit different than loose all the nerves of the foreskin and never be able to enjoy sex as it was meant to be.

I hope you can find a Dr. who actually knows about the intact penis.

Urine under the foreskin will not cause infection if it did every intact man in the world would be having infections.


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## ursaminor (Mar 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ivy53*
> 
> Well part of the reason I'm definitely going to see this ped is because they did a test on his urine (from before he was examined) and they said there were traces of blood in it. I've never had a doctor tell me this before so I don't know if this is a new thing or what. The urologist today said he wasn't even sure if it was coming from his urine, that maybe it's coming from his penis/foreskin, and that his suggestion was to circumcise him and then do the test again. He did do an u/s on him and confirmed his bladder was empty, so at least he can empty his bladder (which was what his ped was concerned about with the accidents).
> 
> Anyway this guy said he only does full circumcisions because anything else was ugly, and why should we make our child an "in between" that isn't circumcised but also not intact, and that would be a terrible thing to do to a child, and that every time he peed that it would cause more infection...and that I shouldn't wait for years and years to get it done because 1. the bit about the infection maybe closing the hole altogether (I've never noticed him having an infection?) 2. scar tissue is going to disfigure the glans if I leave it like this a long time and then, when he eventually has to have a circumcision, again, it will be ugly. Sigh. I would probably get a third and fourth opinion even if this intact-friendly doc thought he needed to be circ'd but hopefully he'll tell me something sane. I hate feeling like I'm not taking care of my kids correctly and that's how this guy made me feel.


This is Marilyn Milos contact info:
Phone: 415-488-9883

email: [email protected]

She literally takes calls all day from parents. She is a registered RN, midwife, and the founder of NOCIRC, she is also on Mothering's ask the experts section. Give her a call, I bet she could help you find a foreskin friendly doctor. She is very easy to talk to and extremely compassionate


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ivy53*
> 
> Well part of the reason I'm definitely going to see this ped is because they did a test on his urine (from before he was examined) and they said there were traces of blood in it. I've never had a doctor tell me this before so I don't know if this is a new thing or what. The urologist today said he wasn't even sure if it was coming from his urine, that maybe it's coming from his penis/foreskin, and that his suggestion was to circumcise him and then do the test again. He did do an u/s on him and confirmed his bladder was empty, so at least he can empty his bladder (which was what his ped was concerned about with the accidents).
> 
> Anyway this guy said he only does full circumcisions because anything else was ugly, and why should we make our child an "in between" that isn't circumcised but also not intact, and that would be a terrible thing to do to a child, and that every time he peed that it would cause more infection...and that I shouldn't wait for years and years to get it done because 1. the bit about the infection maybe closing the hole altogether (I've never noticed him having an infection?) 2. scar tissue is going to disfigure the glans if I leave it like this a long time and then, when he eventually has to have a circumcision, again, it will be ugly. Sigh. I would probably get a third and fourth opinion even if this intact-friendly doc thought he needed to be circ'd but hopefully he'll tell me something sane. I hate feeling like I'm not taking care of my kids correctly and that's how this guy made me feel.


Ivy, I have never heard such nonsense in my life - this doctor is quite literaly off the wall. So long as your son can pee, he is just fine. Retraction often does not happen until much later - puberty or sometimes after. Please read www.cirp.org/library/normal . Should a tight foreskin become an issue after puberty, there are many ways to rectify the condition without harming the foreskin, starting with the application of Betamethasone cream and stretching, to various types of preputioplasty - a surgical technique that preserves all of the foreskin (removing the tip is not a good idea since the muscles of the frenar band are lost). Please read www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis and www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2490/8/6 . Print these out and present them to that doctor so that he might learn something and halt the trail of destruction that he is undoubtedly leaving behind him.


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## Ivy53 (Feb 24, 2011)

Thank you all. See, I had read all that a few months ago, about how retraction sometimes doesn't happen until puberty and I even mentioned to the doctor that I've read not all 5-year-olds can retract their foreskins and he agreed with me but when this guy just took one look at it and says "no, he needs to be circumcised, this will *never* retract on its own" and he said it in this tone of voice like...like I should somehow have known he had a serious condition instead of just a normal non-retracted foreskin and it was my fault I hadn't gotten it taken care of sooner. I guess that's what upset me. I just thought, well, it IS a very *tiny* hole, maybe this IS unusually tight? To look at it now it certainly looks like something that doesn't seem capable of ever stretching naturally. And to tell you the truth I had never seen what a foreskin on a child looks like when it is stretched back until my older boy was sitting on his potty when he was three and a half and he called me in because he wanted to show off what he could do with his penis, and that was when he found he was able to retract it partway.

Anyway, hopefully I can find a doctor who will tell me if it is normal or not. There's one in Irvine on that intact-friendly list, hopefully he would give me a second opinion, or I'll just call the number posted above and maybe she can find me someone else.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Ivy,

I'm sorry you're having some worrying issues right now. I would say that you are doing the right thing by seeking out a foreskin friendly pediatrician for a second opinion. If the only symptoms right now are some accidents, then it is worth putting up with that, doing some research and consulting others before you make a decision about what to do. As you know, it is quite normal for a 5 year old not to be able to retract, but with the other additional issues, a good second medical opinion is what you need. From what you have told us, I honestly cannot find anything that you did wrong whatsoever. You did the right thing by taking him to the doctor to get it checked out - it's just a shame that this Dr. was somewhat high-handed and made you feel inattentive, which obviously is not the case at all. The very fact that you are following through on this issue and are determined to get the best care for your son, shows that you are a very caring parent.

Best wishes

Peter


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ivy53*
> 
> Hi, I don't mean to hijack this thread and I'll make my own thread if I need to but I just thought, if you guys are already talking about this here it seemed silly to make a new thread.
> 
> ...


As long as he can pee without pain, he is FINE!!!

You know not to forcibly retract the foreskin, right?


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

count me as another mom of an intact boy with a partially retracted foreskin. my DS is 8 years old and his was very tight at 4. he likes to play with it and pull the foreskin, which has probably been what's loosened it a bit. but he also wants to see what's underneath the foreskin and has shown me that it doesn't pull all the way back. we've told him this is okay and normal and that it will loosen as he grows and his body is ready & not to pull it if it hurts.

totally normal! very disappointed to hear about these ignorant docs.


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## rross1967 (Jul 12, 2011)

My 2 yo grandson is not circumcised and for the last few weeks has been complaining of the pain. He has been to the dr twice and confirmed no infection but that the foreskin is pinching him. The pediatrician put in a referral to the pediatric urologist for review and possible circumcision.

I don't want to be in a debate  But based on what I'm reading, it sounds as though his foreskin is supposed to be tight. But should it be causing pain? How tight is too tight?

Thanks!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

At his age the pain may not be pain it may be that he dosnt know how else to describe it. It is definitely supposed to be tight still at his age very few are not.

Also erections can feel funny and they may say pain.

I hope that the urologist he sees is foreskin friendly but odds are sadly not good that he will be. They only know how to cut things off since that is what they are taught.

A tight foreskin isnt a problem until puberty and adulthood and only then if it is causing pain. Or if the boy cannot urinate other than that it is 100% normal.

I personally wouldnt go to the urologist and if I did I would be prepared to say no thank you if he/she brings up circ.

Odds are his foreskin is still fused to the glans which is very normal but many Dr. will say to tight or a problem simply because they dont know any better.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Wow, glad there is a wealth of knowledge here. You are asking all the right questions and getting all of the right answers.

Your son may not retract until puberty, or even during or after, and that is 'normal'. A eurologists job is to 'fix' things, so often times people who are used to 'fixing' things through circumcision will jump to that conclusion. It probably isn't anything sinister on his part, its just that you were referred to him with a possible problem and he wanted to find a solution to 'fix' it.

Thing is there is no problems yet, from the sounds of everything you described, everything is on track and normal. Good that you came here asking for input though.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

as long as your little one can urinate effectively, it is not a problem.

i hope this isn't tmi but my dh's foreskin doesn't retract and never has. i forget what the condition is called : phimosis (thanks nddeadhead!) but i can promise you it is not a problem for either of us in any way. i am very glad his parents were not concerned and that they left him whole  they never even tried the steroid cream or surgery either. i didn't realize that it was that rare, either!


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

If he can pee, leave it be.


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## KOTFrank (Sep 13, 2008)

It can take up to age 19 for complete foreskin retraction. 4% are born with retractable foreskin. Testosterone regulates the natural foreskin glans separation. One can be healthy having a non retracting foreskin. Many men are okay with this. So it is not a problem and no problem to fix. (many doctors term non retraction as a problem for citing a reason for circumcision and for circumcision itself. I was retractable at age 3-4. Boys usually play with their foreskins for pleasure. But nature also helps boys to naturally help themselves the spur along the separation of foreskin and glans by making it itch. (Yet another reason given to circumcise to stop manipulating the foreskin). The only person to attempt retraction is the boy himself. Best done in the warm bath pulling the foreskin gently back, when pulled forward using insertion of fingers to dilate (if possible). It is important to tell sons about retraction. Some boys who have not been told, when first all of a sudden retract are scared thinking it is broken. Even some are not aware of the possibility of retraction well into adulthood. Low dosage betasone cream can help with retraction. TLC-tugger now makes a dilator for the foreskin's orifice for those that can not get a finger in to help retract.

Smegma does not cause penile cancer. Though many doctors say it can there is no study done. Greeks have it right, smegma means nature's soap. There is no study on smegma because it then would show smegma to be beneficial and not cancer causing, yet another reason to circumcise would be gone.

We are born with variances. We know the thickness of dartos muscle varies. It is what keeps the foreskin tight to the glans, for protection of the whole, conserve warmth, constrict some movement when running, protect against frostbite and damaging UV rays on sensitive receptors. The tightness of scrotum means the tightness of foreskin. I believe a non retractile but fully separated foreskin/glans if not diseased or scarred, is just thicker than most dartos, a muscle that can be trained to be loose or tight. Men who restore their foreskins through stretching use retainers to train the muscle to keep forward just as some cultures train to keep the foreskin retracted.

FYI- The dartos muscle is striated longitudinal to the penis but as it approaches the tip, the muscle striates transitionally transverse so at the foreskin the dartos is fully transverse to the penis. Nature makes best use of the dartos in this way. This arrangement of muscle is lost to circumcision and can not be restored.

FYI- Cold/Taylor-the presence of smegma preputii is a rare finding; in a prospective examination of 4521 uncircumcised boys, only 0.5% had smegma.

FYI- Dr. John Taylor penile and heart researcher - Sexual Function of the Dartos Muscle (loosely):
Upon erection the Dartos muscle tenses creating a one-piece solid skin tube, where any action on the penile shaft is transferred to act on the erogenous Taylor's Ridged Band and through its loop to the Frenulum, this action it transferred to act on the erogenous Frenulum, together the male's sexual nexus. No action on the shaft is wasted on these sexual structures.
Circumcision always removes all of the erogenous Taylor's Ridged Band and part to all of it's connecting Frenulum. Having this hangman's noose of the male's sexual receptors missing no longer keeps the whole of the penile Dartos muscle tense. With tension gone, all action on the erect penile shaft is wasted to act on the Ridged Band and Frenulum. Action must be applied directly to the Frenulum remnant, if any remains.
Circumcision cuts off 65%-85% of the male's sexual receptors (85% when the frenulum is cut or scraped off infant). This leaves 15% sexual receptors located in the glans corona where it's overpowered by the more populous pain/thermal receptors, ratio 5% to 95%. It is this case that men report "If I felt anymore sensitivity, I think I would die of a heart attack!" (Larry David) Circumcision changes the way, means, and type of sensations felt. Circumcision sexually handicaps.

Consider- The bi-level locations of sexual receptors are located in the ridged band and juxtaposed in the corona. Together, circumferentially the amount of sexual receptors are constant though are inverse to each other going mid-ventral to dorsal. So at dorsal there are more sexual receptors in the glans than in the corresponding ridged band. Inverse to the mid ventral when there are more sexual receptors in the ridge band than the corona. Thus being unequal heightens awareness sensation. Like rubbing fingers of one hand against palm to fingers of the other hand and visa versa. Thus being bi-level located, the cutting off all the ridged band make for the perception of going from stereo to mono.


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## rik8144 (Apr 3, 2007)

My four year old sometimes says his penis 'hurts' when he pees. I noticed that a few days after he complains he will be able to retract it back a little further as he plays in the tub. (I do not ask him to do this, it is just an observation I make as he plays) Perhaps the 'hurt' is when the foreskin is releasing a little more.

For those who have been told their 4, 5, 6 year old will be horribly disfigured or in pain if not immediately circ'd....what do they do over in European countries? They don't have massive amounts of boys writhing in pain from tight foreskins. This is strictly an American problem. Most American docs are hell bent on having every penis cut and they will lie to get their way.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Catmuse, your doctor needs a good lesson in male anatomy. Please print out and make her read this: www.cirp.org/library/normal/ It is known that the AVERAGE age of retraction is 10 and there are men who go their whole lives very happily with an unretractable foreskin. This is in cultures that do not mess with foreskins, but allow them to develop in their own time.

HOWEVER, if after puberty, a foreskin is still tight and the owner wishes it to be retractable, circumcision is NOT the answer. There are many methods to achieve this that still preserve the entire foreskin. See: www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis/ . Finaly there are surgical techniques that are a last resort such as this one: www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2490/8/6 . The results are amazing. For anyone to suggest circumcision is just plain ignorant. Also note that penile cancer is very rare (breast cancer in males is more prevalent!), and generally afflicts very old men who are suffering from ailments that will kill them long before the penile cancer becomes an issue An interesting sidebar to this issue is that there are fewer cases of penile cancer per capita in Denmark (a non circumcising nation) than in the U.S. (a largely circumcised nation). So much for the notion that circumcision protects against cancer - or any other disease for that matter. It just doesn't.

Good luck educating your doctor !!


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## LonelyPageTurnr (Oct 18, 2011)

This is as ridiculous as saying going to a European doctor means they're all foreskin friendly. Trust me, it's not true.

Most doctors I've met genuinely believe in the therapeutic value of circumcision. Unfortunately, a lot of doctors have a really hard time saying 'I don't know' or admitting to a knowledge gap. I really don't think there's a bunch of sinister physicians standing around rubbing their hands greedily as they contemplate unnecessarily circumcising another boy.

In Europe, they have more experience with intact boys than America. This isn't really difficult, the more experience you have with something, the less uncomfortable you are about it. Since the majority of boys in the US are still being circumcised, that's what physicians are most familiar dealing with (especially regionally).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rik8144*
> 
> My four year old sometimes says his penis 'hurts' when he pees. I noticed that a few days after he complains he will be able to retract it back a little further as he plays in the tub. (I do not ask him to do this, it is just an observation I make as he plays) Perhaps the 'hurt' is when the foreskin is releasing a little more.
> 
> For those who have been told their 4, 5, 6 year old will be horribly disfigured or in pain if not immediately circ'd....what do they do over in European countries? They don't have massive amounts of boys writhing in pain from tight foreskins. This is strictly an American problem. Most American docs are hell bent on having every penis cut and they will lie to get their way.


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## LonelyPageTurnr (Oct 18, 2011)

There are so many issues that aren't controlled for that you can't just jump to that conclusion. Penile cancer is more prevalent in intact men. It may be rare, but it is more prevalent. Anyone using that as a reason to circumcise is really stretching, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's more prevalent. We can't gloss over facts we don't like.

The results are amazing. For anyone to suggest circumcision is just plain ignorant. Also note that penile cancer is very rare (breast cancer in males is more prevalent!), and generally afflicts very old men who are suffering from ailments that will kill them long before the penile cancer becomes an issue An interesting sidebar to this issue is that there are fewer cases of penile cancer per capita in Denmark (a non circumcising nation) than in the U.S. (a largely circumcised nation). So much for the notion that circumcision protects against cancer - or any other disease for that matter. It just doesn't.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

It stands to reason that intact men would see slightly more cancer since there is more skin there.

I have links to a few studies on cancer and intact men and the factor that makes the most difference is the sexual conduct of the male along with if he wears condoms or not.


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## LonelyPageTurnr (Oct 18, 2011)

The issue is that the PP was trying to negate the association. Whether it's a huge number or not, the association is there. It's minor, and imo, irrelevant, but it does exist.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X*
> 
> It stands to reason that intact men would see slightly more cancer since there is more skin there.
> I have links to a few studies on cancer and intact men and the factor that makes the most difference is the sexual conduct of the male along with if he wears condoms or not.


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

Quote:


> His pee comes out of a *tiny* pinhole


I always thought the hole was supposed to be tiny, its a sphincter, like the anus. Nothing to worry about. Normal.

Don't forget the Danish study which found that 50% of 10 year olds couldn't fully retract and in Finland there are only

6 circs for medical reasons per 100,000 males per lifetime.

Scar tissue is usually iatrogenic, caused by premature retraction by adults.

Many US doctors don't seem to have a clue about the foreskin, not surprising though, they don't learn about it in medical school.


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## becksyboo (Aug 10, 2014)

I just read this and I am not sure either, my 4 year old can retract his foreskin and clean but my 5 1/2 year old only has the most tiniest little pinholes and can not retract he has never been able to and he plays with it all day like he is uncomfortable, I am going to go see his doctor and I am thinking of getting him circumcised because I don't want to risk infection and if he is uncomfortable with it and if my 4 year old can retract his I believe my other son should be able too, I think it maybe necessary for my son to be done


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

becksyboo said:


> I just read this and I am not sure either, my 4 year old can retract his foreskin and clean but my 5 1/2 year old only has the most tiniest little pinholes and can not retract he has never been able to and he plays with it all day like he is uncomfortable, I am going to go see his doctor and I am thinking of getting him circumcised because I don't want to risk infection and if he is uncomfortable with it and if my 4 year old can retract his I believe my other son should be able too, I think it maybe necessary for my son to be done


Please, please don't even think of circumcising your 5 1/2 year old. A foreskin is a very valuable and useful organ. I know it is hard to see him as a sexual being, but one day he will be and the loss of his foreskin will impact his sex life for ever. Foreskins are not supposed to retract in children. See www.cirp.org/library/normal . They are tight to keep contaminants out. The horror stories of infections are directly due to mis-informed care givers prematurely retracting boy's foreskins. I intact cultures, such as Scandinavia, where foreskins are not messed with, the average age of retraction is 10 1/2. It is hugely variable. A very few are retractable at birth. Many are not able to retract until around puberty. A very few men live their whole life very happily with a foreskin that never retracts. It is a self cleaning organ, just like a girl's parts, and messing around with too much soap etc throws out the natural balance of flora.

I applaud you for keeping your sons intact. Your oldest probably plays with his because it feels good. A foreskin is the most highly innervated part of a male's body.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Becksyboo, your 5 year old can talk! So you can asking him if he is experiencing chronic penis pain. Little boys often play with their penises, and it isn't usually because of pain.

A wait-and-see approach is a pretty good way of dealing with this. There is no need to do anything if your son's penis is not bothering him or preventing him from peeing. Around puberty, you can always check in again to make sure he has no complaints. If he has no complaints, there isn't a problem, and you don't need to do anything.

If his foreskin really is so tight it is painful, there are lots of things to do before circumcision. Steroid cream and gentle stretching can help, as can a small slit at the top of the foreskin. This, of course, only works if the foreskin has separated from the glans, and at your son's age, it's possible this has not happened yet.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

I agree with everything Michelle said - a tight foreskin is easily resolved by other methods than amputation. See: www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis . I love the statistic that in Finland - a non circumcising nation - only one man in over 16,000 will die without his foreskin, as it proves that foreskins are a very resilient organ and rarely give trouble.


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## Dave RW (Jun 26, 2014)

Piling on to second what MichelleZB and hakunangovi said. I'm thankful that I became retractable at a fairly young age since I grew up in a time and place where retractability was pretty much required if you wanted to avoid circumcision. (Oh, the number of "foreskin is a privilege, not a right" talks I got as a kid/teen.) Nowadays, I think we're a little more educated. The link hakunangovi provided is striking in pointing out the vast array of non-circumcision interventions available to someone with phimosis.


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## KOTFrank (Sep 13, 2008)

becksyboo said:


> I just read this and I am not sure either, my 4 year old can retract his foreskin and clean but my 5 1/2 year old only has the most tiniest little pinholes and can not retract he has never been able to and he plays with it all day like he is uncomfortable, I am going to go see his doctor and I am thinking of getting him circumcised because I don't want to risk infection and if he is uncomfortable with it and if my 4 year old can retract his I believe my other son should be able too, I think it maybe necessary for my son to be done


I was age 3 when I could retract my foreskin. So what? The average age of natural foreskin /glans separation is age 10, though it can be up to age 18/19. This natural separation is testosterone mediated, even 4% of males are born foreskin retractable. Nature provides this separation to feel itchy, thus boys itch and manipulate by pulling outward their foreskin. This in turn, speeds the separation. NO ONE should attempt to retract ones foreskin except by the owner. In Europe doctors don't touch a penis there's no need to, unless this is specifically why the appointment is made. So many doctors prematurely forcibly retract a boys foreskin thus causing the pain of tearing tissue and probable tightening of the foreskin due to non expandable scarring. Beware it only takes a second for a doctor/nurse to cause this harm. Mothernature then makes it itchy, itching leads to manipulation, manipulation leads to masturbation, leads to how best to pleasure, leads to how best to pleasure one's partner, but circumcision without the rolling of mechanical skin uses the hand, so how does this learning then interact intercourse?

I chose circumcision for myself at about age 5. You can read "My Story" and other references on foreskin / circumcision in my facebook NOTES:
This paper was presented last week at the International Genital Autonomy Symposium by Ashley Trueman who teaches a birth class and is assisted and written by Kellinjoe Crawford:

"In case someone will certainly circumcise. On to circumcision." - By Kellinjoe Crawford
August 6, 2014 at 8:40pm

The Foreskin & Circumcision; Facts You Need to Know to Make an Informed Decision

We can't fully understand circumcision without understanding what the foreskin is and the functions it serves. The foreskin is the primary erogenous tissue that is necessary for normal sexual function, it is present in all mammals and has been for at least 65 million years or more. It is specialized tissue composed of skin, mucosa, nerves, blood vessels, and muscle fibers. It has over 16 known functions including protecting the glans of the penis, providing a gliding mechanism during sexual intercourse or masturbation which prevents chaffing and micro tears, creates pleasurable nerve response for both parties, and maintains lubrication within the vagina rather than pulling it out with each stroke, as well as provides an immunological defense system. It also contains over 20,000 specialized nerve endings that aid in sexual sensitivity as well as sexual control, compared to the 8,000 contained in the clitoris. Circumcised males experience significantly more premature ejaculation in early sexual activity and 4.5 times more erectile dysfunction later in life than their intact peers, because the physiologic nerve response is missing and the unprotected glans becomes Keratinized/calloused due to unnatural externalization over time. The changes that occur are similar to what would happen to your eyes if you removed the eyelids or your mouth if you removed the lips. Those special nerve endings are called Meisnner's-Corpuscles, the same nerves found on the lips and inside of the hand, you can feel the difference if you run your fingers over the back of your hand and then the inside of your palm and fingers. At birth and throughout childhood the foreskin is fused to the glans as a protective function with a connective tissue called BPL, it is the same tissue that keeps the fingernails attached to the nail bed or the hymen of a young girl intact to protect the internal genitalia from foreign contaminates. Retraction of the foreskin occurs in two steps, first the separation of the foreskin from the glans, allowing shaft skin to develop over time, and then the dense fiberous muscle tissue of the Frenar or ridged band which acts as a sphincter keeping contaminants out and allowing urine to pass, will become more elastic due to the sex hormones of puberty and self exploration. When separation has begun but before the ridged band is elastic, ballooning may occur and is perfectly normal and actually hygienic. When part or all of the foreskin has separated, sterile urine will initially flow to the path of least resistance before exiting out the end of the foreskin. This ballooning serves to rinse away any expired skin cells and keep the newly differentiated structures from re-adhearing. You may have heard of smegma, the Greek word for soap, that all human genitals produce although it is more prominent in females, it is comprised of skin cells and body oils, has a white slightly waxy appearance, ladies will be familiar with this from their own bodies, and it may have the faint scent of genitals but will not have the strong odors associated with illness. During the brief stage when only portions of the foreskin have separated, expired cells and smegma may build and can appear as a white discharge much like you will see on your daughters, or a briefly cloudy appearance to the urine, this is not a sign of infection and will not likely be seen after sexual maturity. Also it's always normal to see a reddened tip of the foreskin on an intact child who is warm or hot especially when in diapers. The inner foreskin is a mucous membrane so it's similar to how our skin changes color from our face, to our lips, to the inside of our mouth, deepening in color. Especially when it's warm you're more likely to see where the skin naturally transitions to a red color as the warmth relaxes the tissues. Being in a wet diaper can also deepen the redness much like eating and drinking reddens the lips, and if it's been too long in a diaper the skin may get a little chapped and red, like any skin left in a diaper too long. If you ever find yourself worried about it or the skin looks a little cracked or uncomfortable, just give the child some diaper free time and approach like any baby getting rashy, you will come to learn that a foreskin that is a little red at the tip is nothing to be alarmed about. Retraction is strictly a sexual function and phimosis cannot be diagnosed unless urine is unable to pass or a POST-PUBESANT man's foreskin does not retract AND causes him discomfort during sexual activity. Treatment with steroid creme and gentle stretching is generally all that is called for and in the rare case of an emergency like inability to pass urine a dorsal slit and repair should be utilized, circumcision defeats the purpose of treating phimosis in adults, the desire to enjoy the gliding mechanism of the foreskin, and is unnecessary and overtly aggressive in the treatment of a child. Even attempting to diagnose phimosis in a child will cause serious harm since it will involve attempting to retract the foreskin prematurely. No more than you would attempt to stretch loose your daughter's hymen or tear back her clitoral hood to scrub her clitoris, you should never attempt the equivalent with your son or allow anyone else to, the first person to retract the foreskin is the boy himself and do not worry about self exploration, toddlers pull away from their body which will not damage the BPL. On to circumcision. The surgical amputation is billed under the V50 code for cosmetic procedures along with hair transplants, breast augmentation, and elective nose jobs. There are 3 common surgical methods, the Gomco clamp, the Mogen clamp, and the Plastibell. Each has different risks and very different cosmetic results. There are also styles of cuts; high and tight, low and tight, high and loose, and low and loose, each requiring different after care. Even if you don't have a preference you need to learn the circumciser's preference in order to minimize risks and long term complications spefic to the wound your individual child has. All surgeries begin the same. Hemostats are used to pinch the sides of the ridged band and tear the structure open, then another hemostat makes a crush line to seal the vessels and reduce bleeding when the next step is taken, usually surgical scissors cut into the top of the foreskin along the crush line. This is done so that a blunt instrument can be inserted to tear the foreskin off of the glans and shaft. Then different methods proceed differently from this point. With the Gomco, a metal bell is inserted to cover and protect the glans from accidental amputation, there are 3 sizes and incorrect sizing leads to severe accidents. Then the torn foreskin and bell are pulled through the clamp and the screw is tightened, crushing the foreskin with 8,000-20,000 pounds of pressure. After several minutes of crushing to reduce hemorrhage risk, the foreskin above the crush line is cut off with a scalpel and the clamp and bell are removed. This method is associated with higher death rates and complications from hemorrhage and too much skin removed necessitating skin grafts either early on or later, or causing hairy shaft and splitting tears on the glans from erections. With the Mogen clamp, the choice of most mohels because it is most similar to the traditional Jewish tool, the torn foreskin is pulled up over the glans as much as possible while the glans is pinched with the thumb and forefinger to keep it from being crushed or cut, the foreskin is pulled through the slit and the clamp is shut, again crushing the foreskin for several minutes and then scissors or a scapel is used to cut off the foreskin above the clamp. This method requires a blind cut be made and carries an increased risk of accidentally amputating the glans, because of this and several lawsuits naming the tool in the deaths of several infants the company that made the clamp is no longer is business, but the clamps are still in use because they simply get sterilized and used again and again. Finally the Plastibell, the method with the most myth surrounding it. Often this is erroneously called the "no-cut" method or "painless" method, but this one certainly involves just as much cutting and the pain from this one may last the longest.There is still a crush line and cut made to tear the foreskin apart from the glans. The plastic bell is inserted to cover the glans and then a string is wrapped tightly around a groove in the bell, the foreskin remaining above the string is cut with scissors or a scalpel and then over the course of several days the foreskin caught between the string losses circulation until it dies and rots off, this unfortunately leaves the risk of serious infection, including necrotizing fasciitis a fast spreading form of gangrene, where the surrounding tissues rot and have to be surgically removed, as well as the risk of the ring migrating and cutting off more of the penis than intended. On an infant, the wound will always be the equivalent of a 3rd degree burn, an organ with no skin since the penis is underdeveloped and does not have shaft skin yet. Circumcision on an adult is less painful because they have shaft skin developed already so the entire penile shaft is not an open wound like on a child, plus their surgical dressing is not a urine and feces filled diaper, additionally they would have a spinal block and general anesthesia as well as adequate post operative medication and the ability to verbalize their pain relief needs. An added benefit to circumcising an adult rather than a child is that on a larger surgical site there is less chance for the fatal error of severing the artery and causing a catastrophic hemorrhage and the penis is fully developed and the risk of removing too much skin requiring skin graft to stop erections from splitting the glans open is greatly reduced as there is no way to know how much or in what way a child's genitals will grow. And remember, every trainee circumciser has to do their first circumcision, do you really want them to practice on your son? Because there is no requirement to tell you that a student will be performing the amputation and many doctors refuse to allow parents in the room to comfort their child so there is no way for them to know who did it.Pain relief options include sugar water, an obviously ineffective tool, its most usual purpose is only forcibly quieting the child for the comfort of the circumciser. EMLA cream must be applied for 1 full hour to be effective, it specifically states that it is not to be used on infants or genitals, so why it's used on infant genital amputations I cannot understand. If applied for the full hour it will only provide relief to the outside of the foreskin, so when the foreskin is torn from the glans and shaft there is no relief and when the foreskin is clamped and cut the inner nerves will be fully responsive. The dorsal penial nerve block is a painful injection and only numbs the top half of the penis, the bottom half will feel everything including the severing of the frenulum or male g-spot. The ring block appears to be the most effective although still not fully, it involves several injections surrounding the base of the penis that cause a burning sensation, usually 4 are done, it also does not help much for the pain of separation and none of these do any good for post-operative pain. The majority of providers prefer not to use any type of pain relief, siting the false belief that babies cannot feel pain, that the pain doesn't matter because it won't be remembered even though multiple scientific studies show severe pain experiences like this re-wire the brain and cause long term psychological harm, and most simply feel it takes too long and prolonging the process makes it worse for the baby than the surgical pain itself, which makes no sense. Many nurses are instructed to tell parents "he slept right through it" when in fact that is a physiologic impossibility, many babies appeared to be sleeping during the circumcision-pain studies but brain scans and hormone levels showed that they were actually in a state of shock, a semi-coma, their brains processing enormous amounts of distress and even months later their stress hormone levels never returned to their baseline. You know who else slept through a painful amputation? The baby several years ago, whose NICU nurse was trying to cut tape off of her and mistakenly cut off her thumb with scissors, she let out a cry and immediately slept for hours, it was not a normal sleeping state.Circumcisers usually don't deal with long term complications so their post operative care is generally too short term and very lacking. Pediatric urologists, who in this country, have an average of 30% and sometimes up to 50% of their cases coming from circumcision complications and repairs, state quite clearly that other provider's circumcision wound care instructions are dangerously deficient. Pediatric urology journals state clearly that the most effective way to reduce cases of meatal stenosis is to apply vasaline at every diaper change for at least 6 months post surgery and up to 12 months. Meatal stenosis is a common complication and is exclusively caused by circumcision and impairs future fertility, impedes the flow of urine, and requires corrective surgery. Additionally at each change for the first 12 months the tissue at the scar line should be gently pulled back to prevent adhesions and skin bridges as the tissues try to heal and reattach, this will prevent not only cosmetic complaints but also further discomfort especially during future sexual activity. Its also needed for hygiene because unlike when the child was intact and had a sphincter muscle and tissue fusion protecting him from contaminants, unnatural adhesions and skin bridges will harbor everything that was meant to be kept out.This link is to the study that showed longer term care resulted in significantly fewer complications.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830142/Although circumcision deaths are often under and mis-reported, usually the secondary cause of death is named like hemorrhage, stroke, infection, heart failure, shock, choking, ruptured organ (from excessive screaming during surgery), and even "failure to thrive" due to circumcision surgery, the lowest estimate of annual circumcision deaths as reported by hospitals alone, who report a 33% circumcision rate nationwide, is an average of 117 deaths of boys, compare that with the 115 deaths of boy AND girls due to SIDS, and those 117 deaths were completely avoidable, none of those parents would have had empty arms if their child was left intact. Consider that drop side cribs were banned after 30 deaths over 10 years. In that time, at least 1,170 boys died from unnecessary cosmetic surgery, do they not matter?What about HIV and STDs? First of all, telling your son that cutting off up to half of his penile tissue protects him from HIV is a sure fire way to talk him out of condom use. Hello unplanned pregnancy and STDs including HIV! You can take all these risks and still need a condom while offering a false sense of security, reduced sensation and control making condoms even more unappealing, or you can protect your son from injury and still need to teach him to use a condom. The original idea behind the foreskin-HIV scare was Langerhan cells, first thought to be magnets for HIV and now scientifically proven to be an immunological defense against HIV, they were not attracting HIV but rather were trapping and destroying it, so now the Langerhan cell, abundant in the male foreskin and the genitals of intact women, are being studied in an effort to utilize their defense mechanism to prevent and treat HIV infection early after exposure.Penile caner? Your son has a far greater chance of testicular cancer, removing one testicle would cut that risk in half, he has even more risk of male breast cancer. If he is circumcised and develops penile cancer, what tissue is left to be sacraficed to remove the malignancy and save his life? How much health benefit would we need to see to make female circumcision of children defensible? Because in circumcising cultures there is so-called "scientific" evidence of a great reduction in STDs, cancer, and infections by circumcising female children. There are only 4 true medical indications for circumcision; malignancy, gangrene, frostbite, and irreparable damage to the foreskin like from a car or serious sporting accident. Any of those things can happen to a circumcised man, but if it does, what tissue do you think is left to be sacrificed?But the AAP recommends it. Do they? They contradict themselves repeatedly in their latest report on circumcision, they made every reference to the justification of 3rd party reimbursement i.e. insurance payment, they never mentioned the function or proper care of the foreskin and even promote injuring the foreskin through premature forced retraction, and immediately released a second report admitting their cultural bias toward circumcision surgery and the financial gains an increase in childhood circumcision rates would bring their members. It was also headed by a doctor who has twice proposed a change in law to permit for a lucrative "minor" female circumcision, a Jewish doctor who circumcised  his own son on his kitchen table despite it being illegal to practice surgery or medicine on your own child, and a doctor-lawyer who serves on the AAP committee for healthcare financing. I can included a copy of this report. Without diving deep into everyone's holy book, no religion consistently requires circumcision. Christianity forbids it as it blasphemous, as it displays a denial of Christ's sacrifice. Jewish law forbids altering the body, many Jews do not practice circumcision, many are now electing to have a Bris Shalom, a covenant without cutting. Muslim circumcision is not religiously required but rather is a cultural custom. Some other religious customs around the world include throwing a baby or toddler 50ft over a tall building to be caught by loved ones below in an effort to ensure a long life. In a part of India, a baby must be dunked in boiling water by his parent to thank the priest and God for the child they were blessed with and to ensure he never dies by drowning. Another involves carving designs into the face of a child after he weans from the breast and then carving designs into his abdomen when he reaches puberty. At what point does the child have a right to freedom of religion, or even freedom from religion? In every case other than circumcision, in the US it is clearly decided that one person's freedom of religion ends where another person's body begins. Let your son choose. He can choose to pursue circumcision as an adult but if he resents it, if it is botched, if it kills him, there is no going back. http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.comWhat the Bible really says about Circumcision -http://www.stopcirc.com/christian.h...tactamerica.orghttp://www.thewholenetwork.org -Have free diaper stickers ect.http://www.savingsons.orghttp://www...leaks.orghttp://www.circumstitions.comhttp://www.kidshealth.org.nz/foreskin-care http://www.moralogous.com/?s=im+fine "I'm circumcised and I'm fine"Cultural Bias in the AAP Technical Report-http://pediatrics.aappublications.o...ww.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/brisshalom.htm
Petroleum Jelly for Prevention of Post-Circumcision Meatal Stenosis
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Finally, my bullet points.
If there is no stopping it&#8230;.Cord clamping should not be done immediately, or even delayed, but it is vital that physiologic cord clamping be performed so the child has his full biologically normal blood volume and iron stores. There is no need to keep the baby lower than the placenta or milk the cord, it pumps, like the heart. I can provide more research for this, but the bottom line is that when the cord meets the air, the Wharton's Jelly of the umbilical cord begins to liquify, clamping down on the vessels sufficiently to divert blood flow from the placental unit and into the lungs while still allowing the flow of oxygenation blood to reach the newborn to protect the vital organs in case of prolonged transition, therefore it is not only safe to leave the cord intact, it is the only safety net we have. To be done at the physiologically timed moment, the cord must be totally white, thin, and limp and the placenta delivered. The vitamin K shot must not be refused, it is not the same as a vaccine, and the oral alternative is not effective enough to be relied on in the case of an infant who will most certainly be facing a traumatic bleeding episode. http://evidencebasedbirth.com/evidence-for-the-vitamin-k-shot-in-newborns/Breast feeding should be firmly established or the mother must be prepared to loose the nursing relationshipPreparation should be made to deal with breast feeding difficulties such as poor latch and reduced supply as well as "colic" symptomsIf not waiting for 6 months to use general anesthesia at least chose some pain relief method and ensure it is administered as effectively as possible, for example the one hour wait for EMLA cream. Be with the child to comfort him, ensure the surgery is done as you've instructed and by who you have chosen, and so in the case that something goes wrong you cannot be lied to as so many parents are. Ask what style is performed, at least if it tight or loose, even if you don't have a preference. If it is tight you must watch for splitting tissue on the glans or shiny spots from over stretching during erections caused by insufficient tissue to accommodate the expansion, especially as the child grows. If it is loose you must be careful to pull the scar line down to prevent reattachment, skin bridges, and painful adhesions and after healing you will need to clean under it because it is no longer fused to keep contaminates out. Monitor frequently for hemorrhage, both day and night, no bleeding in the diaper is normal or safe, be aware that the absorbency of disposable diapers will mask blood loss, do not be dismissed if there is bleeding, get to a hospital and demand treatment. Use lubricant on the wound at every single diaper change for at least 6 months as this reduces infection, bleeding, recovery time, and almost eliminates one of the most common complications, metal stenosis which requires additional surgery. Petroleum jelly is common but for those wishing to avoid that, do NOT use coconut oil, like tea tree oil it is a drying oil and quickly absorbs so it will not provide the barrier needed to protect the urethral opening when the foreskin is removed. I have been recommended almond oil but need to look further into it's properties.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830142/After healing coconut oil is excellent for softening tender, immobile tissue at the scar line as we see in episiotomy scars.
Evidence for the Vitamin K Shot in Newborns - Evidence Based Birth
evidencebasedbirth.com


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

I don't come to the site often anymore, but this is a thread I am permanently subscribed to. Always love Franks posts. 

That being said, he is absolutely right. The separation is a hormone/chemical based reaction and has nothing to do with age and everything to do with body chemistry. There is no need to retract, some men, in rare cases, never retract due to phimosis. this is easily 'cured' through creams and stretching excersizes, or if the person decides they can have a circumcision to remove the foreskin. But phimosis isn't the same as the process the body goes through when the hormone changes happen. Until the body has the right hormones, testosterone, in it? The foreskin is actually NATURALLY adhered to the head of the penis like your fingernail is to its bed. Retracting it before the hormones have released it can cause damage. However young boys will pull on their foreksin regularly and this does not have the same effect as an adult forcibly retracting it because as the owner of the foreskin? They figure out PRETTY quick what hurts and what doesnt, and they stop on their own when it hurts and usually don't do it again


The hormone change, on average, happens around 10 years old. This means that the extremes are males can naturally retract in toddler hood or into young adulthood. 

What this means is, there is time. The choice for any permanent decisions can be made by the person who owns the foreskin, and in america elective surgery isn't 'legal' until adulthood or with parental consent. Either way you are typically looking at the teen years before any 'decisions' need to be made. And those decisions should be made by the owner. 

So far as I can tell there is no such thing as an 'emergency circumcision'. There are always ointments, antibiotics, and therapies for any issuees revolving around the penis, just the same as the vagina.


I still come back time to time when I see posts in important threads, and am happy to see that the people here are still an extreme treasure trove of information that helped guide my parenting decisions when I came into fatherhood.


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## Letitia (Aug 27, 2009)

Observe other boys that age. Most of them grab or rub their penises a lot. Why would a kid not, unless he had fully ingrained the societal taboo? I don't think many of them do by 5-1/2.


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## Wintergreen (Mar 19, 2010)

Our middle guy is six and still has a really tight foreskin. Our family doc seemed really concerned when we went for a five year check up and wanted us to really encourage him to retract his skin more and more everyday (even if it would bleed) so she wouldn't have to operate. Love the dramatic scare tactics the docs use sometimes...hah.
Anyway, we have been 'encouraging'...fine...making him retract his foreskin as far as he can everyday. We let him do it, so it wouldn't be painful or bleed or anything like that. It's only been a few months and the change is pretty substantial, he has gone from that small pinhole someone mentioned earlier to having the tip of his penis show.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

I don't think you need to even do that. In countries that have an intact culture that do not mess with children's foreskins, the AVERAGE age of retraction is around 10 1/2. Foreskins are self cleaning just like girls are. The big danger of premature retraction is that often little slits occur in the tight tip of the foreskin resulting in scar tissue which is non elastic and then results in phimosis. This is the cause of so many of the anecdotal stories one hears of boys who "have to get circumcised". It is very sad because if the doctors were truly informed and up to date on how to look after intact male genitalia - just leave it alone - none of that would occur. The bottom line is that nature does not make mistakes!!


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