# "Bad Parenting" popular, according to CNN



## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

Click Here for CNN Video

As soon as I saw this, I wondered what my MDC mamas would think. I appreciate the idea of not overscheduling kids. I definitely respect the idea that we mamas need to go easier on ourselves sometimes. BUT it lost me when a blogger proudly admitted to spanking her daughter.

What do you guys think of this "trend"?







Is it a backlash against AP parenting?

Does this work: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ad.parents.cnn


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

the link is broken.

I am disturbed when I hear people speak of spanking as though it's completely fine.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Idle parenting where you just relax and let things flow and don't feel the need to participate in every sport and every social function w/your kids and let them be is one thing (and my preferred method) but then there is a line between being an "idle" parent and downright negligent. It bothers me that people are not only excusing themselves but finding encouragement with things like spanking, CIO, etc. Like "You're a 'bad parent'! Me too! Isn't it so totally cool?"







I do get the whole idea of questioning what is viewed as "good" and "bad" in society but we can go too far too.


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

I think I fixed the link... let me know if it still doesn't work.


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Something is happening to our society when it comes to how we treat our children. It seems that many more mamas these days are missing instinct to protect and love your children. My dsd mom puts her two year old in just a seat belt (that's right...no car seat) when she wants to go somewhere with friends but doesn't have the carseat. She also "double buckles" her other 3 kids so they can all squeeze into the car. This baffles me because I drive around paranoid that I buckled the carseat incorrectly, or that it is not latched to the seat correctly, etc.
These moms who seem to be so lax about their childrens safety, happiness, etc. really get to me. I feel like it is becoming the norm! AP gets so many critics, but why? Because we hold and protect our children the way every other mammal on this planet does? I'm really interested to find out why some humans are starting to emotionally separate from their offspring like this...


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakah* 
Something is happening to our society when it comes to how we treat our children. It seems that many more mamas these days are missing instinct to protect and love your children. My dsd mom puts her two year old in just a seat belt (that's right...no car seat) when she wants to go somewhere with friends but doesn't have the carseat. She also "double buckles" her other 3 kids so they can all squeeze into the car. This baffles me because I drive around paranoid that I buckled the carseat incorrectly, or that it is not latched to the seat correctly, etc.
These moms who seem to be so lax about their childrens safety, happiness, etc. really get to me. I feel like it is becoming the norm! AP gets so many critics, but why? Because we hold and protect our children the way every other mammal on this planet does? I'm really interested to find out why some humans are starting to emotionally separate from their offspring like this...

I think AP gets so much flack because it is considered too much work. I think that ties in with our instant gratification/pleasure run society.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Here's what gets me...

To me, AP is easy. Am I a freak? I know there's more to AP than what I am going to mention here. But when I get crap from someone about how much harder I am making this for myself (and I never complain- I love being a mom! Maybe they're just jealous LOL) I have to wonder.

Let's see... my baby has slept through the night since he was seven or eight weeks old (7 uninterrupted hours, now he's up to 8 uninterrupted hours at eleven weeks). I never was sleep deprived badly, not even when he was new- we bed shared and breast fed. We still breast feed. When he wakes up (he sleeps now in a bassinet right by my bed) at 4:00 AM after sleeping for eight solid hours, I just bring him to bed with me and nurse him and sleep another three or four hours. This means I get my eight, too! (I stay up a few hours after he goes to bed, so I can have adult time). I've never once had to make or prepare a bottle. I don't even know how to give a baby a bottle. My baby is always with me... he loves to be carried. I rarely fuss with a carrier or stroller unless I'm out for exercise or I'm bowling (haven't mastered bowling while holding a baby lol). How much HARDER life would have been for me if I had tried to leave him screaming alone from day one, or had to get up and make bottles at 2 AM. No thanks.

Maybe it's easy for me because I am a SAHM and I like being needed. I am not "touched out" and I love being around my baby 24/7 for the most part. I still haven't had one of those "I'm losing my mind" insane moments that I keep being told I'll have lots and lots of. I'm sure it'll come.

But yeah? I can't IMAGINE not properly strapping my baby in on a car ride, either. Wow. That's illegal here.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I agree with you. I initially started AP/NFL because it felt natural and it was just easier to me. But I have to say it...

Quote:

my baby has slept through the night since he was seven or eight weeks old (7 uninterrupted hours, now he's up to 8 uninterrupted hours at eleven weeks).
The thought in society is that babies need to do this right away. I am talking 10 _DAYS_ tops. That's why all the training methods are so popular. Get baby in that crib and sleeping through the night from the first few hours.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

yeah and I NEVER expected my baby to sleep like that! He just does it. There's no fighting involved... he gets sleepy nursing, then I gently lay him down. If he fusses a bit I watch and see what he does. 9 times out of 10 he sucks his hand and falls asleep, usually without fussing. Some times he cries a bit. If it goes more than a few minutes or is loud and distressed, I pick him up and nurse him again. It takes, what, 15 mintues of my time? And I know my baby boy sleeps peacefully. I've never understood why people think babies, which need us all day long, would suddenly not need us at night, or would understand the reasoning. Makes me sad







But that's a whole other topic.


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

I didn't go into parenthood saying "I'm going to be an AP parent" because I never really thought about it. I've just followed my instincts, which has lead me naturally into an AP-style. (I learned more about AP after DS was several months old, but was already being worn/co-sleeping/bfing on demand etc.)

To me, it is an easier style of parenting because I follow his lead. Sleep... um... that isn't something that has been great for us. DS isn't much of a sleeper and never has been. BUT he's happy. He rarely cries. And I can tell he is growing into a confident, independent, and loving little guy... yeaaa! I don't know how his personality may have been different if it wasn't my top priority to respond to his needs. Who can say...

I guess what bugs me about this news story is that there may be parents decisions that are actually borderline negligent or abusive and they will feel they can laugh it off as part of the "bad parenting" trend. I don't believe every parent should parent the way that we do - but why celebrate the more questionable practices?


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I agree with you. I initially started AP/NFL because it felt natural and it was just easier to me. But I have to say it...

The thought in society is that babies need to do this right away. I am talking 10 _DAYS_ tops. That's why all the training methods are so popular. Get baby in that crib and sleeping through the night from the first few hours.










And forget the fact that babies really aren't supposed to sleep that long for the first few months! They are meant to be waking up every 2-3 hours to eat. It's normal.

I do think that "bad" is just a new way of saying, "I do things as much as I can to benefit myself. I didn't really think about how much work goes into raising children, so now I am going to make sure I continue to keep the lifestyle I had prior to my children, and they better deal with it." I'm always surprised when people seem surprised that having a baby means a lot of work, and for a time, some sleep deprivation, and making some sacrifices. It's the point of parenting, right? It's not easy all of the time!

We live in a society now where it seems that loving, and nurturing your kids is up for persecution, and if you respect your children, or your job as a mom, your a freak who doesn't know what he or she is doing. It's sad that trusting your instincts now has become so taboo unless of course it tells you to stick your 3 day old baby in his crib and let him cry.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I can't get to the video.







:

Anyone want to summarize it?


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Maybe I'm dumb but there are people who don't feed (breast or otherwise) on demand? Even if you were a selfish louse, wouldn't you at least feed your hungry child to quiet him???


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## aubreymalee (Jun 11, 2009)

I AP, although I didn't chose that. It is just works for our family. I'm not a "helicopter parent" though. I base my parenting decisions on the end goal of raising a happy, well-adjusted adult. Do I solve my kid's problems? No way. I rather coach him in how to fix it himself. Do other moms look at me/comment that I'm a 'bad mom.' Sure. It bothers me sometimes, but I feel confident in my parenting abilities.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

One more post from me... I'm pretty new here and find these discussions very enjoyable... other people that are like me!!

Anyway, I also didn't choose to AP specifically. I didn't even really know what it meant! I am finding it's just how I parent. God my heart actually HURTS physically when my baby is sad or scared. I can't imagine any other way, for me.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
Maybe I'm dumb but there are people who don't feed (breast or otherwise) on demand? Even if you were a selfish louse, wouldn't you at least feed your hungry child to quiet him???

i nannied for a family that had a fairly rigid sleeping and eating schedule. at 6 mos he was eating 3 meals a day and got an 8 oz bottle in between each meal and once before bed. when he napped i was supposed to put him down at a certain time and leave him until he fell asleep (the sleep training took place before i was hired so i missed that thrill) and then if he woke up before an hour was up i was supposed to ignore him until the whole hour was back up in hope that he would go back to sleep.

the mother was working on her doctorate in infant and child development. this was the same woman who told me BFing is only better then FF for the first three months.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow, maybe that's normal. I admit I am very inexperienced with babies and kids. My MW and friends told me to just follow my instincts so that's what I do. But that makes me very sad to think of a hungry baby


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Sorry, I watched the video and don't understand the responses in the previous posts (except for that super short blurb about the mom who wants to spank). It seems the whole story was about parents that try too hard by providing their kids with a packed schedule, and the helicopter style management of their kids and have reached a limit. I know AP people who do this and non-AP who do this.

I've seen a few posts on MDC about the "bad parenting" thing. If anything, writers write about the "bad parenting" perspective because they are sick and tired of trying to be perfect and are tired of the judgment from everyone, whether from mainstream people or the extreme AP types. I haven't read one article that wasn't humorous or tongue in cheek. These writers are NOT in the business of abusing their kids. (not apologizing for the spanking quote, but the overall articles lately have been in the spirit of "I'm tired of trying to be perfect and if someone wants to call me a bad parent...then I celebrate it!)

I consider myself pretty AP, but the judgment here is sometimes overwhelming...like no matter what I do...it's not good enough. If there are less tough-skinned people out there than me, than I can understand their frustration, especially if they are trying to do what is best for their kids.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
One more post from me... I'm pretty new here and find these discussions very enjoyable... other people that are like me!!

Anyway, I also didn't choose to AP specifically. I didn't even really know what it meant! I am finding it's just how I parent. God my heart actually HURTS physically when my baby is sad or scared. I can't imagine any other way, for me.

Just hearing my baby cry causes hormonal changes. I want to help her. It would make me sick not to help her.

And that's the part that I admittedly don't get. When it comes to a completely innocent, helpless baby, parents do things that they wouldn't even do to a dog.

I was just reading a blogger talking about what to do when your infant vomits from CIO. "don't interact w/ your baby" "minimize your time in the room"

My gosh, imagine if we treated a dog like that! We'd be sent to jail!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
Sorry, I watched the video and don't understand the responses in the previous posts (except for that super short blurb about the mom who wants to spank). It seems the whole story was about parents that try too hard by providing their kids with a packed schedule, and the helicopter style management of their kids and have reached a limit. I know AP people who do this and non-AP who do this.

I've seen a few posts on MDC about the "bad parenting" thing. If anything, writers write about the "bad parenting" perspective because they are sick and tired of trying to be perfect and are tired of the judgment from everyone, whether from mainstream people or the extreme AP types. I haven't read one article that wasn't humorous or tongue in cheek. These writers are NOT in the business of abusing their kids. (not apologizing for the spanking quote, but the overall articles lately have been in the spirit of "I'm tired of trying to be perfect and if someone wants to call me a bad parent...then I celebrate it!)

I consider myself pretty AP, but the judgment here is sometimes overwhelming...like no matter what I do...it's not good enough. If there are less tough-skinned people out there than me, than I can understand their frustration, especially if they are trying to do what is best for their kids.

Yes there is a lot of judgment in the world but not all of it is off-base and we can't sit here and pretend like we ourselves don't do it.

I often feel inadequate. The correct response to that is to question why you are feeling that and really examine it. This way we find room for improvement and also where we need to just chill out. But when people in general do bad things or make bad choices and then pat themselves on the back there is a bigger issue. Like I said in my OP on this thread I think there is a line. There is being a relaxed parent and then there is being just downright negligent. I'm not talking about the parents who don't do every activity, who's children aren't on them 24/7, who don't birth in a pool with dolphins, etc etc I am talking about parents who are doing real neglectful things and receiving praise for it because hey they need "me time" doncha know









I for one am tired of the judgment that comes to moms who are appaled by what other children have to go through. I agree that crazy judgment is bad where you are doing it for the sake of being the almighty judge and making yourself feel better but I'm sorry I am not going to sit here and say "oh that mama spanks her 10 month old? Let's him CIO? Leaves him in a poopy diaper for a few hours until she feels like getting to it? Well who am I to judge?" Yeah sometimes some things are just wrong and though it'd be awesome if this world was all butterlies and roses it's not and to say it's not shouldn't be such a shock. Yes it's judgment but is judgment always wrong? Is anyone really ever immune?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I think what really gets to me is the "bad parent" label. It feels like we are still in middle school when i was so totally awesome to be "bad". I feel like these parents are really cutting themselves short byt labeling themselves "bad parents". I know that people think I am a bad mama for sleeping with my babies in bed with me, allowing them conventional candy for special occasions, letting them run around naked in the house, etc etc but I wouldn't call myself a bad parent simply because I stand by my parenting. If I DID think I was being bad I'd change it. So I guess this "bad parents club" seems a bit juvenile to me. I mean I understand getting together with other parents based on your philosophies (everyone needs a support system) but what is up with forming a collective based on the negative? Are there "I spank my kids and I'm proud!" groups out there too? I would not be surprised I guess.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
Sorry, I watched the video and don't understand the responses in the previous posts (except for that super short blurb about the mom who wants to spank). It seems the whole story was about parents that try too hard by providing their kids with a packed schedule, and the helicopter style management of their kids and have reached a limit. I know AP people who do this and non-AP who do this.


I agree. There was nothing in the video about breastfeeding, sleeping with your baby, etc. Yes, they mentioned someone who said she spanked but beyond that, I didn't see anything other than a couple moms; one saying that she stopped dragging their kids to ballet, art, and whatever lessons every day of the week and one saying that she loved her husband more than her kids.

I can't see how someone who stops dragging her kids all over as "bad" or doing something selfish for herself. Overscheduling your children can affect the whole family by reducing time for family meals, time to hang out together, etc.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

The "bad parent" self-label thing has been all over the media lately.

It has NOTHING to do with parents who are negligent or abusive. It's not about leaving your kid to CIO or sit in a diaper or watch TV all day.

It's a response to the over-scheduled insanity that parents have been putting their children through, and the competitiveness that has come to a peak with children in advanced French and dance and music lessons and soccer, and that's just on Tuesday. It's also a response to the need to constantly supervise one's kids and making sure they're doing flashcards or leappad or some other enriching activity instead of ever just sending them out into the yard to just play.

*Some* parents are sitting back and saying "oh, I don't do that." And in comparison to all the Super Mommies out there that are Making Their Children Be The Best They Can Be, these parents are saying about themselves -- *ironically* -- that they are "bad parents". As in, "so sue me if little jimmy isn't doing x, y, and z like all his peers -- I must be such a BAD PARENT'.

Parents are either cutting back on these activities because they realize it's nuts, or -- more likely -- because it's friggin' expensive and they can't afford to do it right now.

And there's the story. Nobody is neglecting their kids in this trend. These parents are just preemptively taking a defensive position before some other judgmental parents can come along and rag on them. That is all.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I used to read that blog a few years back and went back to it to see what the ruckus was about. I think that spanking quote was taken out of context.

http://badladies.blogspot.com/2009/0...manifesto.html

She also wrote a response to people thinking she is condoning neglect.

http://badladies.blogspot.com/2009/06/ecce-mater.html

Both very interesting reads and worth your time is you have a few minutes.


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

Like I said in my OP, I totally get the not wanting to overschedule and the need for moms to stop being so self critical.

In hearing the responses of others who know more about this movement than I do, it sounds like maybe they pulled out some unfortunate quotes (specifically about spanking, living LO in bathtub alone, etc.) to represent the movement.

I admit, I was a little taken aback by the woman who said she loved her husband more than her kids. Am I the only one? As a child, I think I would be heartbroken to hear my mom say that. But I was a sensitive kid.

Speaking of sensitive... I really am very sensitive about my own parenting choices... well, I tend to be overly sensitive in general.







I think different parenting styles work for different families. Unless there is a case of abuse or neglect, I wouldn't criticize someone else's choices. I can only assume every mom (and dad) wants what is best for their child. And what is best for one child isn't for another.

I hope my OP didn't come off as overly judgmental. That definitely isn't the person I want to be or the mindset I want to have. I was just curious to your responses to this "bad parenting" movement - both good and bad.


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks for posting those links, riverscout!! I love the honesty of this mama. It's tough to really lay it all out there like that.

This is a quote from the blog about the conflicting definition of a perfect mother:

Quote:

The Good Mother is everywhere, all at once, and she looks like everything, and nothing. She stays at home; she goes to work. She attachment-parents; she's Babywise. She home-schools; she Montessoris. She vaccinates; she doesn't vaccinate. She follows a schedule; she lets her kids run free-range. She co-sleeps; she wouldn't dare co-sleep. She would never spank; she's a strict disciplinarian. She's an Alpha Mom; she's a Slacker Mom; she's a Hipster Mom; she's a Christian Mom; she's a Hipster-Christian-Alpha Mom who slacks off in the summers. She's Everymom; She's NoMom. She brooks no disagreement: if you argue with her, you start a Mommy War. But the wars are futile and pointless because the combatants are all fighting on the same side, her side, which is no side, and in the end we just batter each other until we are dumb and we give up and retire to our camps, bloody and bruised and determined to just keep it to ourselves next time and so it ends as it always does, in silence, with none of us saying what we really want to say, what we really need to say, which is this: who the fuck cares?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

It is sad but true that there are some parents who are in fact proud that they spank. It' svery hard for me to understand that line of thinking. Who could be proud they purposefully inflict pain on their children? What is there to be proud about that a parent is too lazy to learn another way - too lazy to do the work it takes to be effective in the long run. Are these the same people who chose crash diets over healthy eating? You know the kind who are skinny off and on for a few years and then their weight gets out of control. Now they spank for short term results and wind up with out of control teenagers or adult children. Though yes some get lucky with children who turn out well in spite of being spanked or weight that remains low due to a hereditarily high metabolism. All in all there are all kinds of parents. None of us are perfect, some may try to be, and then the other side are the people who rather be proud to be lazy, which I don't understand. I think somewhere in between is ideal - do your best and cut yourself and your children and others some slack.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ILoveSweetpea* 
Like I said in my OP, I totally get the not wanting to overschedule and the need for moms to stop being so self critical.

In hearing the responses of others who know more about this movement than I do, it sounds like maybe they pulled out some unfortunate quotes (specifically about spanking, living LO in bathtub alone, etc.) to represent the movement.

I admit, I was a little taken aback by the woman who said she loved her husband more than her kids. Am I the only one? As a child, I think I would be heartbroken to hear my mom say that. But I was a sensitive kid.

Speaking of sensitive... I really am very sensitive about my own parenting choices... well, I tend to be overly sensitive in general.







I think different parenting styles work for different families. Unless there is a case of abuse or neglect, I wouldn't criticize someone else's choices. I can only assume every mom (and dad) wants what is best for their child. And what is best for one child isn't for another.

I hope my OP didn't come off as overly judgmental. That definitely isn't the person I want to be or the mindset I want to have. I was just curious to your responses to this "bad parenting" movement - both good and bad.

My mom said she loved God first, then her husband, then her children. And yes that hurt. What hurt even more was that she acted like she loved herself first, then God, then the church then her husband, and then s kids. We were the bottom of the totem poll. and like many people, she treated the dogs better then her own children (you know, there is a $400 fine if you hit a dog but not if you hit your child







)

I love my family equally, perhaps in different ways. However, the reality is my husband can take care of himself and my children can not, and so maybe sometimes it appears I love my children more but I really I just love them all. I feel like our family is love, intertwined, and connected







:


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Ayelet Waldman (Michael Chabon's wife) was the woman who said she loves him more than her kids. She seems to be resistant to labels-- she has used slings and breastfed plenty, killed herself to get her palate-deformed third or fourth child breastmilk for six months... but she SURE LOVES making fun of AP. I think she just really loves being snarky all the time. I think it's way too bad that she seems to think APers are more judgemental and harrassing than other kinds of parents. I think EVERYONE can be like that. I know when I made innocent comments about my life to "mainstream" parents, I got jumped all over by them. There was certainly as much bullying there as I've ever seen coming from APers, here or elsewhere. I think her perception of APers as being the ones who are so judgey comes from her limited experience with parenting spheres. She lives in Berkeley, goes on a Berkeley parenting forum, and they were having trouble with APers jumping all over other parents. But I think in other circles, it can be just as much the formula feeding CIO-promoting parents who say terrible things and pressure APers. I think it depends on where you live in the country, what your socioeconomic status is, etc.

I think it's too bad that SO MANY authors of these recent articles seem to be confusing helicopter/overscheduling parents with APing. So many of the APers I know are way hands off, and very into unscheduled lives for their kids. I think there must be some social cirlce of journalists who are seeing all these high-achieving parents stiving to be THE BEST PARENTS of THE BEST KIDS, and they do their research and find AP techiques, and then ALSO sign their kids up for baby genius classes and every sport and art program, etc etc. And the journalists are conflating AP with that hothousing parenting style. Also, they seem to think APers are only for positive discipline, and we are creating all the young workers who can't get anything done without lots of cheerleading, but most APers I know are very aware of over-praise, Alfie Kohn, etc. We're trying to avoid that! That really gets me, when people make assumptions about how my kid is going to turn out, and go on and on about it, when they can't even discern the differences between these parenting styles. I mean, I'm just a mom and I'm more informed than they are in all these topics, it seems. Maybe they've just been edited to death?

I think parenting styles are so much more diverse and individual than these articles are making out. I'm interested in reading The Idle Parent because it intrigues me. I will take what I want and leave the rest. But I'm so sick of reading articles that assume that because I AP I think I am better than everyone else and that I'm using flashcards on my baby and already planning her college applications. I AP because it's the only way I know how to parent (I can't leave my crying baby! I want to be close to her, etc etc), and because when I went and researched, the research backed up my instincts. I feel the urge to share what I've learned, because I was ignorant about all the choices out there, and when I felt spurred to research, I was amazed at what was out there. I just want everyone to get a chance to hear the same information. I never judge or bully others about their parenting, though. I am a believer in education and learning and information, that's all.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ILoveSweetpea* 
I didn't go into parenthood saying "I'm going to be an AP parent" because I never really thought about it. I've just followed my instincts, which has lead me naturally into an AP-style. (I learned more about AP after DS was several months old, but was already being worn/co-sleeping/bfing on demand etc.)

To me, it is an easier style of parenting because I follow his lead. Sleep... um... that isn't something that has been great for us. DS isn't much of a sleeper and never has been. BUT he's happy. He rarely cries. And I can tell he is growing into a confident, independent, and loving little guy... yeaaa! I don't know how his personality may have been different if it wasn't my top priority to respond to his needs. Who can say...

I guess what bugs me about this news story is that there may be parents decisions that are actually borderline negligent or abusive and they will feel they can laugh it off as part of the "bad parenting" trend. I don't believe every parent should parent the way that we do - but why celebrate the more questionable practices?

This is me.

My aunt used to have a plaque in her kitchen that said "I'm a mean mommy." Some parents pat themselves on the back for being mean, getting tough, etc. My mom was talking to the (Christian mainstream) woman that I nanny for. She was saying how mad she was that one of the boys left his clothes on his closet floor instead of hanging them up, so she was going to take all his favorite shorts. (I expect this sort of retaliation from her.) And my mom goes, "Good for you!"







ARG! I thought she was learning from me, and here she goes congratulating this woman for taking her ten year old's clothes away.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
This is me.

My aunt used to have a plaque in her kitchen that said "I'm a mean mommy."


But this could mean so many things, it could mean a woman is proud of being punitive, OR it could mean that a woman is okay with making unpopular choices if they're right for her kids. I joke that I'm the "mean mommy" because I won't feed my kid HFCS laden foods with licensed characters on them even though all the other kids get them in their lunch. And when all the other kids are going to a party with no adult supervision, I'm surely going to be the "mean mommy" that won't let my kid attend.

Does it mean I'm "mean" as in cruel? No. But there are shades of meaning.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i just don't get it. it seems like one of those things that people do when they know they aren't doing the best thing but don't want to change so they band together with other people who are doing the same thing and then talk about how proud they are of themselves and how other parents who do the things they know they should have done try to hard, are overachievers, etc. and how they are better then those parents b/c they don't judge and they do what they want and don't let their kids and other parents make them feel bad about it.

i would imagine that most parents who can look into their hearts and honestly say they did their best to do what is best for their child regardless of whether they FF, BF, Co sleep, CIO etc would be less likely to need some sort of validation of their "bad parenting" the only bad parent IMO (not including abusive ones) are the ones who know darn well they are not doing what is best for their kids but don't care b/c it is what they feel like doing. not b/c what they are doing is bad in and of itself but b/c they believe it is bad but care more about what they want then what they think is best.


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
My mom said she loved God first, then her husband, then her children.

Some people believe that's the order it should be.

It doesn't mean you are neglecting your kids or ignoring them in favor of your husband. In fact, it's hard to explain if you don't get it. It's about priorities but that doesn't mean that either party gets neglected or favored. It just means that kids are not going to get in between of that marital relationship which they sometimes do because they learn quickly mommy says I can't do this, daddy says I can, I will ask daddy. I was one of those kids that played their parents against each other and caused many arguments.

That can't happen. Now I am an adult and my parents still have to live with each other. But with all the arguments I caused putting my dad against my mom who knows what's going on there.

The order of priorities doesn't need to be stated to your child though. But it also doesn't need to be stated if your order was children then husband; it seems hurtful either way.

But God, husband, kids will be my order and that doesn't mean I will be a bad mom or love my kids less than anything but God. You love different people in different ways.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

Like others have said, I disagree with the whole premise of the piece, which seemed to be:

GOOD = overscheduling, 1000 activities, baby flashcards, hyperinvolved
BAD = free time, more laid back, more gentle

All that stuff is just window dressing, in my opinion. It doesn't get to the heart of what I believe to be good parenting- are your kids loved unconditionally, safe, secure, free to grow into their best selves? You can accomplish that while your kid learns to play the bassoon OR by laying in the grass and looking at the clouds.

But I guess such vague, hard-to-quantify ideals don't make for good TV in a 2 1/2 minute piece.

And I'm sorry, but I've found mainstream folks to be MUCH more judgey than AP parents, and I'm hardly crunchy at all! I take naps in the SAME BED as my baby?!?!? He's going to suffocate! And why don't I stop breastfeeding so that I can go away for a week with DH...... and leave DS behind.







I'm so abusive to his grandparents because I won't leave him for an overnight visit.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HisBeautifulWife* 
It just means that kids are not going to get in between of that marital relationship which they sometimes do because they learn quickly mommy says I can't do this, daddy says I can, I will ask daddy. I was one of those kids that played their parents against each other and caused many arguments].

phew the steam coming out of my ears is finally slowing down. this isn't the kids getting in the way of the marital relationship. this is blaming the children b/c the parents aren't communicating, aren't working together, aren't presenting a united front, and then fighting about it. this is 100% the parents fault.

if i asked my mom something and she said NO and then i went to my dad who said Yes as soon as he talked to my mom about it (which was inevitable) a couple things would happen. first of all we would talk about the situation, why mom said no and dad didn't etc. there was never a situation where one said yes and the other said NO and they just couldn't agree. after they talked about it they would decide on their answer... they would tell me why and that would be that.

usually i just strait up told them that i had already asked the other parent and why i thought they were being unreasonable. if i did not tell them this i did get a lecture about trying to play them against each other but i was never actually able to do it b/c they would talk about it and find out.

kids can't play their parents against each other unless their parents let them do it. my parents did occasionally have to say "1littlebit your mother/father already said no before you asked me. i didn't know that and if i had i would not have agreed. so i am sorry but the answer is no, next time you ask one of us something you have already asked the other you need to tell us that and explain why you disagree. we are a team and we work together."

but i was never able to successfully pit them against each other b/c they didn't let it happen. they have great communication, they are reasonable, they always supported each other etc. it is a failure on the part of the parents if these things are not happening. blaming the children is completely ridiculous.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
I consider myself pretty AP, but the judgment here is sometimes overwhelming...like no matter what I do...it's not good enough. If there are less tough-skinned people out there than me, than I can understand their frustration, especially if they are trying to do what is best for their kids.

I think the judgement can be overwhelming sometimes too, but then again, these mamas (myself included) are posting their stories, problems and questions on these boards _to get_ our personal opinions, i.e. judgment. I think MDC mamas feel more comfortable being judged, giving advice, and expressing opinions _here_ because we know that we are in an online community of people who have much more in common than our local moms group (at least the average mom in my area, anyway







).

I think the video's idea of The Perfect Mother was one who bent over backwards to keep her kids in all kinds of classes and extracurricular activities. I don't think this is what my idea of The Perfect Mother is at all! _My own personal ideal of The Perfect Mother is the mother whose children are happy and well-adjusted._ Which "parenting practices" you employ (or not) to get your children there is largely irrelevant: IMO, as long as you have happy, well-adjusted children, you're doing the right thing for your family.

I think the video was right on about the modern American culture's scattered maternal archetype: the age of Donna Reed is dead, and no new maternal savior has risen. There _is_ a mainstream (an overall striving to make children "independent" asap parenting style), but it is often debatable whether that mainstream is the epidemy of The Perfect Mother. Perhaps this is just one consequence of the social upheaval of the sixties.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i just don't get it. it seems like one of those things that people do when they know they aren't doing the best thing but don't want to change so they band together with other people who are doing the same thing and then talk about how proud they are of themselves and how other parents who do the things they know they should have done try to hard, are overachievers, etc. and how they are better then those parents b/c they don't judge and they do what they want and don't let their kids and other parents make them feel bad about it.

i would imagine that most parents who can look into their hearts and honestly say they did their best to do what is best for their child regardless of whether they FF, BF, Co sleep, CIO etc would be less likely to need some sort of validation of their "bad parenting" the only bad parent IMO (not including abusive ones) are the ones who know darn well they are not doing what is best for their kids but don't care b/c it is what they feel like doing. not b/c what they are doing is bad in and of itself but b/c they believe it is bad but care more about what they want then what they think is best.

I don't think the bad mom thing is always about getting validation for bad parenting as much as it is seeking acceptance for being human and fallible or for dealing with less than ideal circumstances.

And it's not always about not caring what is best, but sometimes it's just not possible for whatever reason to actually do what is best whether it be due to mommy burn out, fatigue, depression, lack of support, lack of money, lack of time, or whatever. I try my best sometimes, but I still fall short of what's best sometimes for my kid's, ykwim? And sometimes it stings to have my nose rubbed in it by others.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HisBeautifulWife* 
Some people believe that's the order it should be.

It doesn't mean you are neglecting your kids or ignoring them in favor of your husband. In fact, it's hard to explain if you don't get it.

I TOTALLY get it, I just know as a sensitive child that getting it didn't make it hurt my feelings any less. I was no neglected or ignored by any means. Some people don't realize thought that most children don't have the same understanding of the Word and saying something like that to them seems pointlessly hurtful. There is plenty of scripture and Godly guidance you can share with your children. That bit of info can surely wait until they are adults. Just because *you* understand what that means does not mean a 5 year old will understand it the same way. And thats why I was replying to the other poster who as exploring those thoughts.

Now I personally choose to have an all embracing approach that is different then yours, and I am happy with that in our family. It doesn't mean my kids can come between us. At the same time though, my husband wont come between me and my kids. It's the mindset that we are all loving and wanting to be together as one with God and in His eyes.

Also if you read what I said, I do not state the order my children, then my husband. I love MY FAMILY. It goes in this order: 1) my family. and then thats it, thats the end of my list. I agree we love love different people in different ways, I just don't see people as objects to prioritize like that. Each is so valuable in there own way. If there were a fire I would not grab my bible, then get my husband out, then get my kids. I would probably be saying a prayer in my head as I called to my husband to help me get the kids out of the house. I'm sure you would do the same, but for my this analogy is not just how we work in case of emergency. Unfortunately many children suffer sexual abuse because parents believe that God, Husband, Child order WAY too deeply and think the kids are lying about sexual abuse to break up the marriage. The love totem pole just doesn't work for our family and I don't think it makes me any further from God then you are.

1 little bit I agree with you - that is not about the children playing the parents against each other. Perhaps HisBeautifulWife can give a better example? To me it would be just as unacceptable for my husband to play me against the children as it would be for the children to try to play me against my husband. It's just not our family dynamic to "take sides" based on a 1,2,3 order. It's more about us all working together because we all love each other and none of us should manipulate anyone, and none of us should get between a relationship of any pair whether it be parent parent, parent child, or child child.

If our children have to ask something serious we talk about it first and give our answer together. We will reason with the child if they are being reasonable. We all find a solution that works for all of us, God included









If its not something serious and one parent says no we haven't had the experience of our children going to the other yet. Maybe we are lucky, maybe they know that wouldn't work because its manipulative (not because we blindly side with the #2 position on the totem pole), or maybe they will do it when they are older and we havent gotten there yet. If my husband says no and my kids comes to ask me and I want to say yes we would get together and figure it out together. I think they know this by now though. I'm not going to side with my husband against my kids just because he is my husband. Nor the other way around. Because you know whose side I am on? MY FAMILY'S SIDE. We are a unit







:

Besides. there are times that to follow God you WOULD have to put your child before your husband, so that kind of confuses the whole order idea.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I guess I don't see the pride in it.

I can see saying "it's okay that I got burnt out and yelled at my kids. i can make ammends and try to prevent it next time. It's okay not to be perfect, and it DOESNT make me a bad mom if im not perfect"

but I cant understand
"its wonderful that I yelled at my kids. I dont care if you think that makes me a bad mom, im proud I yell at them and if that makes me a bad mom then of well im glad im bad mom then." (followed by picking on the moms who they think try to be super mom)

There could be more compassion from both sides, but I really cant understand those who are the side of being proud to hurt their children. Maybe they think its right but personally I dont think hitting your kids is anything to brag about. It doesn't take any skill and as hard as they have tried to prove that its not dangerous I believe its over 90% of studies show it is. I mean, more then 10% of those studies surely had to be trying to prove its IS a good thing, since more then 50% of people believe in it...

I guess I just see being proud in spanking like being proud in buying lunch at mcdonalds. It's just not something to be proud of in my mind because it doesn't require skill or self growth. It's not a challenge. The only ay it may be a challenge is if you have to go against hat your heart and mind is telling to do that, but to me, going against what you whole body and soul is telling you is not anything to be proud of either.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Maybe it's because I never read the comments section of articles or blog entries, but I really haven't heard any moms being proud that they seriously neglect or abuse their children. I think there must be two very distinct groups of bad mamas.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I have met both those groups. I think its sad the one group thinks they are bad mamas to begin with just because they aren't perfect. In my eyes that doesnt make them bad, it makes them human. As far as I know, thats the group that does their best but just can't manage to do it all (and in my experience, I dont know anyone who does successfully do it all.) are still good parents. I don't think its good to say "I cant be the best so hy bother Ill just be a bad mom" nor is it good to say "i am proud of hurting my child or neglecting them (proud to spank or CIO) because I dont see those are skills that require great effort. I mean to be honest I dont even feel proud that I GD or NO-CIO. it's just what I do.

There are probably more like 3 groups of the bad moms
The not bad bad moms, who are just made to feel bad or are too hard on themselves - the ones who try their best but are only human. In my eyes they are not really bad moms. They are good moms putting themselves in the bad mom catagory

then you have the bad moms who are just lazy moms. They want to be good moms but its too hard so why bother and they don't even try. I wouldnt call this bad, I would more so think they are depressed and not handling it well and also a bit lazy

and then the bad moms who I cant understand why they are proud of what they do:
ignore a babies cry, smack their child, etc - the ones who look all the evidence square in the face and say "oh well I'm a bad mom then, I dont care what effect if may have on my child, *I* turned out fine and I think based on that fact alone that this is right" and the irony in that is, that they call themselves bad moms only as an F U I dont care to the moms who dont hurt or neglect their children. These I find to generally be the moms who think they are better then everyone else. Better then every study ever done, better then every grown child who has said "this had a negative effect on me - negative effects are possible" you know, some poeople just don't think it can happen to their kids because it didnt happen to them. I wonder if they put their kids in carseats if their parents did use carseats when they were younger. Some people in this group may be more of the lazy parent in disguise, acting defensive over their actions because its easier to defend hurtng their child then to change their behavior. So possible 3 groups. I'm sure some places in between too.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Posts like this bug me, and heres why. It seems like parents these days fall into two categories: Those who feel like they have to be entertaining their kids 24/7 and those who don't. Those who feell like they DO tend to look down on those who feel like they don't. I'm one of those who doesn't feel like I need to be entertaing DS 24/7. I let him play by himself, and explore and runa round without my constant 24/7 supervision/playing with him. If I thought i had to be playing with him constantly (as my parents, and especially my mom seem to), I'd go insane. I need time to get stuff done, and no, I can't cook/clean/garden/etc and entertain him at the same time. He can entertain himself. If my mom or dad come here and see me & DH sitting around reading while DH entertains himself, they give us dirty looks - like we should be down on the floor playing with him constantly. And I just don't get *why*. In another year DS will be outside playing by himself, I'm sure. If he's outside, one of us is too, but we're not neccarily watching him constantly - I'll look up from gardening or whatever and check and see where he's at, but I'm not sitting down there playing with him 24/7. And some people think thats wrong and 'bad parenting'. So be it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I don't think the bad mom thing is always about getting validation for bad parenting as much as it is seeking acceptance for being human and fallible or for dealing with less than ideal circumstances.

And it's not always about not caring what is best, but sometimes it's just not possible for whatever reason to actually do what is best whether it be due to mommy burn out, fatigue, depression, lack of support, lack of money, lack of time, or whatever. I try my best sometimes, but I still fall short of what's best sometimes for my kid's, ykwim? And sometimes it stings to have my nose rubbed in it by others.

i guess i don't consider those things falling short yk? if you do the best you can there is nothing to fall short of. the best thing for you kids is to be the best mother you can be. i really believe (actually i know for a fact) that children know when you do the best you can and they know that is the most important thing. i have heard countless people say that their parents did the best they could for what they know and who they are. what more can you ask of someone then to do their best?

i don't think mamas should feel bad or guilty for anything if they are doing their best to do what is right for their family. you should never feel guilty for something you just couldn't do yk? i think there is a huge difference between just not caring and not being possible due to the reasons you stated and possible many more.

i wish women would understand that every woman who tries her best to do what she is able to do is a great mama. if your best is FFing for w/e reason, CIO b/c you just don't know what else to do, and any number of other options then you are still a good mom. there is no checklist that makes a good mom.. no one is an overachiever (well i am sure they are out there but i think most women just try and do the best they can) and calling yourself and everyone who doesn't meet a list of expectations a 'bad mom' is incredibly negative.

like the kids in school who tried their best and still got C's.... that is great b/c they did their best. no one can expect more from them than their best. expecting more then the best people can give is not their failure, it is ours.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
I think its sad the one group thinks they are bad mamas to begin with just because they aren't perfect. In my eyes that doesnt make them bad, it makes them human. As far as I know, thats the group that does their best but just can't manage to do it all (and in my experience, I dont know anyone who does successfully do it all.) are still good parents.

I don't think they actually think they are bad. I think it is more like owning their imperfectness. Like some women embrace the word "bitch." They self label and own it so others can't use it against them...a sort of protective measure...a preemptive strike.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I don't think they actually think they are bad. I think it is more like owning their imperfectness. Like some women embrace the word "bitch." They self label and own it so others can't use it against them...a sort of protective measure...a preemptive strike.

how about saying that perfection is not required to be a great mom. can we embrace and support all mothers who do their best to love and care for their children? any one who cares enough to worry that they are a bad mother probably is not a bad mother. i do not worry that i am a bad mom but i have before and i worry about certain things... i know i am not perfect but i know darn well i am a good mom.

i do not understand embracing the 'bad mommy' mindset. how incredibly negative. it creates the mindset that anyone who does the things they do not are judging them for being bad mommies and thats not the reality. it makes people who want to AP feel like they can't do it b/c it is to hard and unnecessary. they assume they are being judged.. when in reality they are doing the judging. of themselves and of others.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The things I've read here at MDC or heard from people IRL that they would NEVER do that I do includes:

Using a stroller
Using a pacifier
Feeding a child McDonald's, Mac & Cheese, etc.
Letting a child play unsupervised
Letting a child walk alone to/from the bus stop
Letting a child ride the bus in the first place
Taking medicine for illness when pregnant
Letting a child play video games
Giving my baby plastic toys to chew on
Not particularly restrictive as far as TV/movies go
Carrying baby into store in bucket car seat
Letting child sit in the large part of the grocery cart

Honestly, I could go on for pages. THIS is why the "bad parenting" thing is catching on. If people stop getting ridiculously dramatic and calling other people bad parents for minor things, people will stop using the term ironically.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I am more concerned about people who don't think about their parenting enough to typecast themselves.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The things I've read here at MDC or heard from people IRL that they would NEVER do that I do includes:

Using a stroller - we use a stroller. i also baby wear but i can't do it for long now that ds is big. i have a bad back and would be miserable for days.

Using a pacifier - he has a pacifier

Feeding a child McDonald's, Mac & Cheese, etc.- guilty on this one too

Letting a child play unsupervised- hes 16 mos old so not unsupervised but he does entertain himself sometimes.

Letting a child walk alone to/from the bus stop- depends on the kid and where we live.

Letting a child ride the bus in the first place-







i don't get it. why wouldn't you?

Taking medicine for illness when pregnant- depends on how high the risk and how bad i needed it. i stopped taking my adderall.. but i did take anti barf medication

Letting a child play video games-







if i didn't i would be a hypocrite

Giving my baby plastic toys to chew on- he chews on everything whether i give it to him or not. as long as he's not chugging lysol i'm good.

Not particularly restrictive as far as TV/movies go-







depends on the kid... ratings mean little to me and i would rather have my kid watch R then pg-13.... but it depends on what they can handle individually. i think Movies and TV are good conversation starters

Carrying baby into store in bucket car seat- over my cold dead body would wake my sleeping baby up just to put him in a sling.

Letting child sit in the large part of the grocery cart- aside from the fact that its where i put the food...







i put him in the seat part but i see older kids in the other part all the time... they seem just fine. i would rather see a kid in the big part of the cart then a kid being dragged screaming down an aisle or running around pulling stuff off shelves and bumping into peoples carts.

Honestly, I could go on for pages. THIS is why the "bad parenting" thing is catching on. If people stop getting ridiculously dramatic and calling other people bad parents for minor things, people will stop using the term ironically.

i don't think any of that has anything to do with being a bad parent. people just don't agree about things yk? some people are hover crafts some are more laid back... some people apply all rules to every child and some people tailor them to each child individually yk?

i guess i think that there are parenting choices that are much more important than these ones. these are little things that we all may have different opinions about but IMO are not worth beating yourself up over.

like mcdonalds or mac and cheese. does ds get it every meal? no of course not... but every once in awhile i take the easy way out and give him chicken nuggets or french fries... the only people who will know are the ones who are also in mcdonalds.. and i am sure they wont judge me









the bucket seat things kills me.. why would i wake a sleeping baby up to put him in a sling? the only reason i can think of is b/c you are worried about what other people will think if you don't.

basically i think there is a time and a place for things and moderation is key.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I don't think they actually think they are bad. I think it is more like owning their imperfectness. Like some women embrace the word "bitch." They self label and own it so others can't use it against them...a sort of protective measure...a preemptive strike.

yes, that is some of them, but not all of them. I am concerned with the ones who do actually think they are bad when they should not. I personally would never call myself something bad just because I wasn't perfect, but I understand that some people think its a sense of humor thing or something.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
how about saying that perfection is not required to be a great mom. can we embrace and support all mothers who do their best to love and care for their children? they assume they are being judged.. when in reality they are doing the judging. of themselves and of others.


yep thats how I feel.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I found the curly girl mom profiled charming, actually. She has all this energy and was thinking ballet on Monday, Gymanstcis on Tues etc was something that would benefit the kids. She then realized it wasn't great to be trying to run around like that. She figured out what was right for her family. Plus, she seems fun. I'd hang out with her.

This parenting thing has become a tough gig with very little wiggle room. It's easy to pick a part of woman trying to do her best in a role that is always changing. (Seems none of these kids have fathers?). We've even been told that telling our children 'Good job" will destroy their futures. It's to the crazy point where other mommies at the playground are juding the smallest of things harshly-- such as seeing someone give their kid cheerioes . Then going home home to post/blog about how stupid people are about nutrition. It's a relentless assault over everything.

If we gave each other a little space, we would have no need of Bad Mommy backlash.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i don't think any of that has anything to do with being a bad parent. people just don't agree about things yk? some people are hover crafts some are more laid back... some people apply all rules to every child and some people tailor them to each child individually yk?

Exactly.

I think too many times people jump the gun and think "she doesn't do this so she thinks it's bad so she thinks _I'M_ bad for doing it". Nope. People just have different preferences.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
yes, that is some of them, but not all of them. I am concerned with the ones who do actually think they are bad when they should not. I personally would never call myself something bad just because I wasn't perfect, but I understand that some people think its a sense of humor thing or something.

Yes.

I am also puzzled by the ones who believe they are bad in an area and instead of trying to fix it just embrace their "badness".







But I think that's another thread.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Maybe it's because I never read the comments section of articles or blog entries, but I really haven't heard any moms being proud that they seriously neglect or abuse their children. I think there must be two very distinct groups of bad mamas.









Yes I was thinking this as well. I also noticed that "bad parents" come from more than just the mainstream side. There are plenty of AP/NFL mamas who feel this way I am sure.

What it comes down to is that parents are feeling like "if I don't do it _THEIR_ way I am bad" and "they" can be anyone.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The things I've read here at MDC or heard from people IRL that they would NEVER do that I do includes:

Using a stroller
Using a pacifier
Feeding a child McDonald's, Mac & Cheese, etc.
Letting a child play unsupervised
Letting a child walk alone to/from the bus stop
Letting a child ride the bus in the first place
Taking medicine for illness when pregnant
Letting a child play video games
Giving my baby plastic toys to chew on
Not particularly restrictive as far as TV/movies go
Carrying baby into store in bucket car seat
Letting child sit in the large part of the grocery cart

Honestly, I could go on for pages. THIS is why the "bad parenting" thing is catching on. If people stop getting ridiculously dramatic and calling other people bad parents for minor things, people will stop using the term ironically.

ITA. I've had it implied I am failing my daughter because I started using a stroller for her on occasion after my son was born because I couldn't carry them both







. One some level, it kinda made me want to get a double stroller and burn my baby carriers.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I think too many times people jump the gun and think "she doesn't do this so she thinks it's bad so she thinks _I'M_ bad for doing it". Nope. People just have different preferences.









Definitely true sometimes. But sometimes, all too often really, a mom makes it clear she does actually think another mom that does things differently is bad or a failure of sorts. And I have seen the terms "abuse" and "abusive" thrown around way too liberally at times.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:

Maybe it's because I never read the comments section of articles or blog entries, but I really haven't heard any moms being proud that they seriously neglect or abuse their children. I think there must be two very distinct groups of bad mamas.
And see, I've seen forums where Mama's proudly announce that they neglect their children, and are proud of themselves for allowing their 3 month old to cry for hours because it meant that they didn't "give in".

That's sad to me.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
ITA. I've had it implied I am failing my daughter because I started using a stroller for her on occasion after my son was born because I couldn't carry them both







. One some level, it kinda made me want to get a double stroller and burn my baby carriers.









Definitely true sometimes. But sometimes, all too often really, a mom makes it clear she does actually think another mom that does things differently is bad or a failure of sorts. And I have seen the terms "abuse" and "abusive" thrown around way too liberally at times.

I hear ya! I formula fed my second DD when I got preggers with my third because my milk dried up and oh boy I should have just ate more (had hyperemesis) or took such and such herbs or bought breast milk (because you know we have so much money)







Mostly though you get told your milk is probably still there so cut out the formula and keep feeding. Uh yeah right. She was loosing weight and not messing her diaper.

I very much agree that "abuse" is thrown around way too much and it is. It's one of my peeves along with other "ives" and "isms" that people throw at you when they simply disagree.

ETA- I formula fed my daughter and I wouldn't call that being a bad parent because I can stand by what I do. So why call yourself a bad parent even if just in mocking? I don't get why degrading ourselves is such a good thing...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

give in?







do they think their baby is controlling or something? helloooo pot? this is kettle....

i understand CIO on some level... many people think it is the right thing to do. baby needs a schedule, needs more sleep, needs to learn to self soothe. or mamas just dead on her feet and needs to be able to sleep.

but give in? what in the world does that mean?

ETA- i wonder if they differentiate between the two mindsets when they do CIO studies. a imagine that a mother who does CIO b/c she believes it is the healthiest choice for her baby has a vastly different approach to parenting in general then someone who does CIO b/c they believe their child is manipulative and controlling ykwim?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

the formula feeding is a good example actually.

I can understand someone being proud they were able to breastfeed for x amount of time even though they dealt with x amoun of issues and it was a struggle.
I can understand a mom feeling confident in her choice to formula feed because she (really truly) had no other choice and she did what she had to do for her baby to be fed.

I don't understand the being proud to choose to formula feed just because you don't want to breastfeed. I can respect some people feel confident in that choice, but what is there to be PROUD of? What exactly was the struggle and what was the accomplishement? What was the outstanding acheivement?

Maybe I just take issues with pride in general. I grew up in a racist community unfortunately and there were people who were "proud to be white" and "proud to be black" and for me personally, I was born the color I am I didnt do anything to be this way so it's not something I take pride in. Maybe I'm the odd one out and have pride issues or something lol. I can understand being proud about some things, but proud to hit children, or proud to be a bad mom, or proud to add some powder to water to feed your baby for the SOLE reason it would be easier. I can understand being proud in accomplishing some thing hard. I cant understand being proud of doing something easy. For some people though, things like FF can be hard because they had to do it and they had really wanted to breastfeed. Or like the woman who REALLY wanted a natural birth and ended up being transported from her home birth setting to the ER for an emergency c-section but was still proud of her efforts. I cant understand someone being proud of their failures, but I can understand some one being proud that they make effort to rise above those hard times and keep trying. I can't understand the pride in giving up.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

:


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
the formula feeding is a good example actually.

I can understand someone being proud they were able to breastfeed for x amount of time even though they dealt with x amoun of issues and it was a struggle.
I can understand a mom feeling confident in her choice to formula feed because she (really truly) had no other choice and she did what she had to do for her baby to be fed.

I don't understand the being proud to choose to formula feed just because you don't want to breastfeed. I can respect some people feel confident in that choice, but what is there to be PROUD of? What exactly was the struggle and what was the accomplishement? What was the outstanding acheivement?

Maybe I just take issues with pride in general. I grew up in a racist community unfortunately and there were people who were "proud to be white" and "proud to be black" and for me personally, I was born the color I am I didnt do anything to be this way so it's not something I take pride in. Maybe I'm the odd one out and have pride issues or something lol. I can understand being proud about some things, but proud to hit children, or proud to be a bad mom, or proud to add some powder to water to feed your baby for the SOLE reason it would be easier. I can understand being proud in accomplishing some thing hard. I cant understand being proud of doing something easy. For some people though, things like FF can be hard because they had to do it and they had really wanted to breastfeed. Or like the woman who REALLY wanted a natural birth and ended up being transported from her home birth setting to the ER for an emergency c-section but was still proud of her efforts. I cant understand someone being proud of their failures, but I can understand some one being proud that they make effort to rise above those hard times and keep trying. I can't understand the pride in giving up.

I think it might be a defensive mechanism because other people refer to their choices as "failures."


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i agree. DS is FF and while i am not proud of that but i do not believe that i am bad mother because of it. i tried to BF and between a jaundiced sleepy baby, lack of information, medication contraindicated while nursing, and the wrong kind of support i switched to Formula. i am pretty much 100% certain that i did the best i could in the situation i was in with the support and information that i had. i know next time i will do it differently. IMO thats what a makes a good mother.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
give in?







do they think their baby is controlling or something? helloooo pot? this is kettle....

i understand CIO on some level... many people think it is the right thing to do. baby needs a schedule, needs more sleep, needs to learn to self soothe. or mamas just dead on her feet and needs to be able to sleep.

but give in? what in the world does that mean?

ETA- i wonder if they differentiate between the two mindsets when they do CIO studies. a imagine that a mother who does CIO b/c she believes it is the healthiest choice for her baby has a vastly different approach to parenting in general then someone who does CIO b/c they believe their child is manipulative and controlling ykwim?

I do see a difference. My friend had a highly sensitive baby who would fuss for MAYBE 2 minutes (not hard crying but definitely upset, uncomfortable, etc) however, if she tried to rock him or hold him he would scream and it would take hours of his screaming in her arms to fall asleep. Her baby simply got overstimulated and the fussing at bedtime was not him fussing about being put down it was fussing from the stress of already having been overstimulated. but within minutes of a quiet room the stimulation was gone and he could go to sleep peacefully. It was hard for her I think, and people made her feel bad for letting her baby "cry", but this is exactly the kind of thing I could understand. She did what was best for her baby instead of what other people were trying to make her think was best. With proper support she learned how to get her baby to sleep without even letting him have to "cry" those couple minutes, but what she needed was someone to recognize he WAS overstimulated as she said, and suggest ways to prevent the over stimulation and get him to bed before it got too bad for the baby.

So yes, I do think there is a difference between the parent who is trying to "prove they are the parent and wont be manipulated by tears" that truly CIO and the parents who are actually respecting their child's needs by not holding then when they are already overstimulated. I imagine that is something hard to do for the parent who doesnt like CIO while they are trying to figure out how to avoid even those 2 stressful minutes of crying. Some parents take so much pride in not letting the baby cry alone, or they fear being considered "cio"ing that they will hold a baby that is crying for 2 hours instead of puttng the baby day for a minute or two. Usually you can tell when overstimulation in the case because the child is tired and fussing and the more you hold them the more they cry until they pass out, when all you had to do was put them down before it escalated to crying... and if you recognize this pattern with your own child your best hope at avoiding the fussing is to keep track of when your baby gets tired and try putting them down a few minutes before their tired time. To wind down from high energy activities to do slower paced quieter activities, etc.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i agree. DS is FF and while i am not proud of that but i do not believe that i am bad mother because of it. i tried to BF and between a jaundiced sleepy baby, lack of information, medication contraindicated while nursing, and the wrong kind of support i switched to Formula. i am pretty much 100% certain that i did the best i could in the situation i was in with the support and information that i had. i know next time i will do it differently. IMO thats what a makes a good mother.

Definitely! I'm sorry it didnt work out the first time but so glad you will try again. That clearly demonstrated the difference. you arent calling yourself bad an embracing it. So many moms just FF because they FF their first child or it didnt work out the first time. I'm glad you didnt get caught in the bad mama trap. you are not. you did the best you could at the time, but instead of saying FF is better you said FF was the best I could do this time, but im gonna prepare myself better for the next time. THAT *IS* something to be proud of in my book - rising to the occasional and not letting set backs become a permanent place. Embracing that you are a GOOD mom - a mom who tried her best each time, and know that she is good enough simply for doing so


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

AP is about meeting your childs needs not about living up to some standard regardless of your childs needs.







even in the Dr. Sears book it says that there is no one way and no checklist to AP because every mother and child are different.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I can see that river. I had one mom act like she was BETTER then me because she FF and I breastfed so she "had more time to play with her baby" and at no point had I been down on her for FF or called it a failure nor did I even share my pride of BFing with her because I figured it would be a sensitive subject. In the end SHE felt her choice was a failure, and was being defensive by acting like her choice was superior.

Me personally, I dont get defensive over my failures. If I try to do something and it doesn't work then yes I DID fail. THAT time. SO WHAT? People are so hard up for a pat on the back they can't handle failure at all. Guess what, we all fail sometimes, or fall short, or dont live up to our own expectations or whatever you want to call it. It's nothing to get defensive over, for me anyway. Unfortunately what I see is many people being defensive when no one is attacking them, and them being defensive comes across as looking down on another person. This is how the war is started. The first act of war is defense (Byron Katie).

I mean think, maybe SOME people do get down on those who fail at breastfeeding. Thats not cool. But to then turn around and say "Well formula is better" yes that may be them being defensive but that defense is also attacking the people who never said their breastfeeding was better then that persons formula feeding. Often times people are preemptively defensive, and thats when they come across as the ones who are attacking. Still though, if one side could stop "defending" themselves there wouldn't be any mommy wars. This "pride" in doing the wrong things just seems almost mean towards the mamas who are willing to rise to the occasion or willing to say "okay I failed so what, I'll learn more and try again when I can"


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Definitely! I'm sorry it didnt work out the first time but so glad you will try again. That clearly demonstrated the difference. you arent calling yourself bad an embracing it. So many moms just FF because they FF their first child or it didnt work out the first time. I'm glad you didnt get caught in the bad mama trap. you are not. you did the best you could at the time, but instead of saying FF is better you said FF was the best I could do this time, but im gonna prepare myself better for the next time. THAT *IS* something to be proud of in my book - rising to the occasional and not letting set backs become a permanent place. Embracing that you are a GOOD mom - a mom who tried her best each time, and know that she is good enough simply for doing so

















thanks!







i guess thats why i find the bad parenting label so detrimental. its to easy to get caught up in that mindset b/c you feel guilty, or judged or w/e. if FF didn't work out this time for w/e reason thats ok you can't change that really. You can learn from it and think about why it didn't work and what you can do next time to help you succeed. or you can say I FF i'm a bad mommy hahaha and not bother trying again. but i don't really understand why you would do that. just because something didn't work the first time or you regret not trying or w/e doesn't mean you should just give up on the whole institution and sneer at everyone who BFs or wants to BF.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







thanks!







i guess thats why i find the bad parenting label so detrimental. its to easy to get caught up in that mindset b/c you feel guilty, or judged or w/e. if FF didn't work out this time for w/e reason thats ok you can't change that really. *You can learn from it and think about why it didn't work and what you can do next time to help you succeed. or you can say I FF i'm a bad mommy hahaha and not bother trying again.* but i don't really understand why you would do that. just because something didn't work the first time or you regret not trying or w/e doesn't mean you should just give up on the whole institution and sneer at everyone who BFs or wants to BF.

yes that is the different right there and that is why I also see it as detrimental. Not to mention then these "bad mamas" start to band together against "those overachieving supermoms" and then feel like they can't still be part of the "bad mama" group if they don't show that they really thing FF (or whatever choice) is best by choosing to do it again.

I know there are different kind of self proclaiming bad mamas but I was on another message board and I very much saw the kind of self proclaimed bad mamas I am talking about here.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I haven't read all the responses, but I did watch the video. Minus the spanking part (and the "I love my husband more . . ."; I just wonder how you can quantify love?) I COMPLETELY AGREE with the video. The video did not mention CIO, FFing, or any of that, so I'm not sure why people are using that in this discussion? That's not what the video was about.

I think the point is, _any_ extreme form of an idea is dangerous. For example, you may desperately love animals and want to protect them, but is bombing scientists who do experiments on them OK? Now, on a much, much, much lesser scale, you may think you can never. ever. put the baby down, so you don't shower, you don't eat, etc. Is that really OK? To completely avoid your own needs? Or maybe you try to eat organic food, but you just do not have the money. Should you worry yourself to pieces? Put it on a cc? THAT will make you sick faster than non-organic food.

IRL (and I don't live in a particularly "crunchy" area), I see most moms as the same. Some BF, some FF, but most moms are trying really, really hard. Some moms are competitive, but they'd be that way if you knew them as co-workers; some people are just competitive. Some people are judgmental, but again, they are likely that way about everything, due to their own insecurities. Most moms I know admit to struggling, to wanting to be more patient and kind with their children, to wanting their children to have opportunities. This was true when I worked with 1st generation parents on food stamps to moms who owned million dollar homes, down to people like me, who are somewhere in the middle.

I see new mothers as so vulnerable-- like this discussion of "CIO"-- if a baby fusses for 2 minutes, is it OK? How long does it to be in order to be CIO? You know what, as much as I LOVE MDC (check my post count!) at the end of the day, only you know your baby. Every baby is completely different, as is every parent. YOU know what your child needs. You do NOT need to follow any rules, or worry about being judged. If you aren't perfect, guess what? It means you are (gulp) HUMAN.

And FTR, I hear plenty of people, even on MDC, call themselves bad moms jokingly because they let their children watch TV too long or whatever. It's normal, I think, to joke about it. Why? Because I think, with mothering, there is often a fine line between laughing and crying, and darn it . . .we'd be better off laughing!


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## traceface (Feb 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
I am more concerned about people who don't think about their parenting enough to typecast themselves.

Exactly.


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## traceface (Feb 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
This "pride" in doing the wrong things just seems almost mean towards the mamas who are willing to rise to the occasion or willing to say "okay I failed so what, I'll learn more and try again when I can"

Exactly! It's kind of like in middle school or something, it's not seen as cool to try to do well or to just earnestly say, "I really care about this and am going to figure out how to do it really well".

Saying, "yeah, whatever!" is so much cooler. Even if in reality, these women are not doing "whatever" either, they are probably for the most part caring mothers too. it's all about the image, being the cool snarky one who doesn't follow boring "good" advice.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *traceface* 
Exactly! It's kind of like in middle school or something, it's not seen as cool to try to do well or to just earnestly say, "I really care about this and am going to figure out how to do it really well".

Saying, "yeah, whatever!" is so much cooler. Even if in reality, these women are not doing "whatever" either, they are probably for the most part caring mothers too. it's all about the image, being the cool snarky one who doesn't follow boring "good" advice.











Seriously motherhood is worse than high school.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't think someone who FF out of a need is a failure by ANY means. Sometimes the need may be something we don't even know (like touch or abuse issues). I also sometimes put my baby down and let him fuss a little (not out right cry) as mentioned above. When I am holding, feeding, rocking, and walking and Shhhing him (his tried and true soothers!) and he still cries, then I know he NEEDS to be put down. He may make little "uhhh uhhh" fussy sounds for a few minutes, but then he sleeps. I don't consider that crying out. Putting a baby down and letting it cry until it throws up COMPLETELY freaks me out. I have no baby experience except my own, but my very instincts tell me that is hideous and the few times my baby has cried REALLY hard (like in the car on the interstate and we couldn't stop for a few minutes because there wasn't an exit) I have literally become frantic and told my DH we have to stop, before I panic. That animal instinct is pretty awesome







He's never puked from it, my god that's horrible. I can't even think about that anymore. And no I'm not trying to be self righteous, I'm just super saddened by that, and I am lucky enough to have a baby that, while sometimes fussy, does not have colic or anything and has always been pretty easy to deal with.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

subbing so I can come back and read this fascinating discussion


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## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
I haven't read all the responses, but I did watch the video. Minus the spanking part (and the "I love my husband more . . ."; I just wonder how you can quantify love?) I COMPLETELY AGREE with the video. The video did not mention CIO, FFing, or any of that, so I'm not sure why people are using that in this discussion? That's not what the video was about.

I think the point is, _any_ extreme form of an idea is dangerous. For example, you may desperately love animals and want to protect them, but is bombing scientists who do experiments on them OK? Now, on a much, much, much lesser scale, you may think you can never. ever. put the baby down, so you don't shower, you don't eat, etc. Is that really OK? To completely avoid your own needs? Or maybe you try to eat organic food, but you just do not have the money. Should you worry yourself to pieces? Put it on a cc? THAT will make you sick faster than non-organic food.

IRL (and I don't live in a particularly "crunchy" area), I see most moms as the same. Some BF, some FF, but most moms are trying really, really hard. Some moms are competitive, but they'd be that way if you knew them as co-workers; some people are just competitive. Some people are judgmental, but again, they are likely that way about everything, due to their own insecurities. Most moms I know admit to struggling, to wanting to be more patient and kind with their children, to wanting their children to have opportunities. This was true when I worked with 1st generation parents on food stamps to moms who owned million dollar homes, down to people like me, who are somewhere in the middle.

I see new mothers as so vulnerable-- like this discussion of "CIO"-- if a baby fusses for 2 minutes, is it OK? How long does it to be in order to be CIO? You know what, as much as I LOVE MDC (check my post count!) at the end of the day, only you know your baby. Every baby is completely different, as is every parent. YOU know what your child needs. You do NOT need to follow any rules, or worry about being judged. If you aren't perfect, guess what? It means you are (gulp) HUMAN.

And FTR, I hear plenty of people, even on MDC, call themselves bad moms jokingly because they let their children watch TV too long or whatever. It's normal, I think, to joke about it. Why? Because I think, with mothering, there is often a fine line between laughing and crying, and darn it . . .we'd be better off laughing!









:


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

I've formula fed 1child (after 9 weeks of pumping breastmilk with a crappy pump), exclusively breastfed 3 others. At this point in my life, I feel absolutely no guilt for having to give my oldest formula. I tried my best with breastfeeding him, but I didn't have the education or support to make it work.

All of my kids, breastfed or not, are happy and healthy kids.

I've spent most of my time as a parent walking the fence between AP and Mainstream... I've formula fed and done extended nursing, my kids are fully vaccinated, but I delayed some, my boys are intact, I coslept with all my kids, but we use strollers and they watch TV.

I live in one of those communities where a lot of parents have their kids in a lot of extra curricular activities... we (DH and I) do not have our kids in a lot. Scouting occasionally, occasionally a sport, but we don't have something going all the time. If we did that with 4 kids, we'd never be home. I

The hard part for me has been finding the balance between making sure that my kids needs are met, without ignoring my own needs. If that means someone is fussing while I use the restroom, so be it.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

I think all mama's are very sensitive about the parent they are. We are all very emotionally invested in being a good mother -- and as a result we are very sensitive when we feel 'others' think we are making poor parenting choices. Or we are insecure about the choices that we are making -- they feel right -- but do I really know they are right?

What makes me sad about these debates is that it feels that these we/them sides are drawn between mama's. We are suspicious of each other instead of supportive, or very sensitive to perceived slights. I have many friends who parent different ways (cio, bottle feeding, time-outs,etc, etc.,); however I may not understand why they make those choices I do believe that they are great moms who love their children dearly and believe they are doing right by them. They also deserve my support in their parenting and personal struggles, even though we make different choices. That is how mama's become strong together.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

I'll make sarcastic remarks IRL about my FF my youngest dd. Why? Because if I don't laugh...even a sarcastic laugh...I'll cry. Well, not so much anymore. But definitely in the beginning. I cried over it. A lot. And it took a lot for me to admit here on MDC that I FF. But I do mention it in any post where it is relevant. I suppose so that I can let any lurkers know that an attached parent is an attached parent, no matter what they feed their baby.

I know that if I were to share my story about switching to formula, that some women would definitely judge me. _I_ would have judged me, before I ate a serious helping of humble pie AND crow back in January when I started FFing. Not openly. But in my head. I would've thought "Hmmm...I wouldn't have given up. I doubt she really tried hard enough." I may have even doubted certain aspects of my story, had I been on the outside looking in.

I'm a heckuvalot less judgmental now than I was when my first was a baby. Over the years, I've come to see a lot more gray, rather than black and white. The experience with my youngest dd made me see even more gray.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

First, and slightly off-topic, there were a bunch of posts how AP is easier... and I do agree- for babies. Doing what babies need keeps everyone healthy, happy (and generally not screaming!) and what they "ask for" is very direct and usually easy to provide. But older children have more complex needs. Maintaining a trust of your child's innate sense of self and thier own needs, finding others in schools and care situations who run programs that respect this, parenting in a culture of punishment and of children being "lesser"... AP parenting can become much harder than it was for babies and young toddlers as soon you are not just advocating your positions with your mom or your playgroup, but you are pushing entire systems like schools, religious institutions, etc. in order to maintain your child's environment when they are not in your direct care, when they are part of a larger community.

Anyway, back a bit more on topic. Take MDC here







. There are always a bunch of parents who say "I'll never be as great a mom as these MDC moms! AP is too hard because I'm not 'crunchy enough'. How do I live up to the impossible MDC standards?" and the flaw in the logic here is this- the vast majority of the time, you see people's "good sides". They talk the most about the things they are passionate in. So you get a few MDC'ers who really are great at cloth diaper issues. Others are big advocates of breastfeeding. Many want to talk about their natural births. Some are really well read on gentle discipline. So, it comes out looking like MDC is full of super-people when really, it is some people are great at some things and not so big on others. The diaperer might not do the healthfood thing (so they most likely will not post in those forums or talk about it much). The breastfeeder might not have found a natural birth an important part of their parenting experience. So, they just don't go there. So, when we find out that, lo and behold, there are OTHERS who have lost it and yelled, others who have struggled with nursing, others who have gone through the McDonalds drive through... Well. We feel a little better. We're not perfect, but NO ONE is. There IS some peace in that. This "bad parent" thing takes the idea one step further.

I have a "perfect" friend. She is a child psychologist by trade with a PhD, but she stays home with her girls. She is a clown at a hospital in her off time (she brings her kids...







). She teaches Music Together. She runs the pre-schools Schoolastic. She collects clothes for needy children. She is a gentle, loving, thoughtful affectionate parent who laughs often and loves her girls. They are clearly adored children who come to school in mismatched clothes and rainboots and she smiles and rolls her eyes. Her house is filled with kid art, play spaces and healthy food. To boot, she is very, very pretty and thin. When she told me one day that she had a "really hard time" with her youngest, I laughed out loud (we're friends...). I told her I was sorry to hear that, but I was also happy to hear it because it means you're human







. We both laughed because we were really saying that you can be a great mom, but no one can be a perfect mom. And that is OK. We were OK in our "imperfections", bad days, and things like that.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

perhaps we should start a thread about all of the things we don't do or struggled with







nobody is perfect.. and even the seemingly perfect AP mama might have relationship trouble, fertility trouble, financial trouble, crazy In laws, be in poor physical health, want nothing more then to be a WOHM/ SAHM, go to bed at 2 am and get up at 5, have a house that looks like a tornado went through it, orders in every meal they eat except what comes from her boobs, or she might struggle to do all that she does and still have time to read a book, watch a movie, etc.

everyone struggles with something, nobody is the perfect mom and nobody has the perfect life. its hard to judge without the whole picture yk?


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Going to extremes of a discovered Perfect System that will produce Perfect Children is something worth rebelling against, which is how I understood the Bad Mother vs. Perfect Mother thing. The Perfect Mother can be following Ezzo or Sears, and will either judge another mom because her baby is not sleeping through the night at 2 months of age or because her baby is obviously not well attached, because he sucks his thumb and has a blankie he loves.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

the thumb sucking blankie loving baby was me.. i was also BF for over 18 months, my mom couldn't have used a stroller if she had wanted to, i screamed bloody murder if i could see my mom and she wasn't holding me and i co slept until i was old enough that i don't want to tell you







..... and my mom left me with my grandmother before i was even 6 weeks old b/c apparently my father, who i love and am incredibly close to who read me books before bed, listened to me read him books, sung me beatles songs to sleep, and played softball in my bedroom with me needed some husband time

my brother weaned at nine months... my mother says it was his choice b/c the bottle was quicker and easier for him (if you knew my brother its almost believable







) he sucked on a pacifier like it was a life line, he was fed his first solid food (baby apricots) at 2 mos old by his 3yr old sister... yours truly! he co slept longer then i did and he is closer to my mom than i am now. i am closer to my dad. i know this is true b/c he does not contemplate matricide everytime he spends more then 10 minutes talking to my mother and he did not dream about duct tape and ear plugs as a teenager.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

It has occurred to me several times through my parenting "career" that the parenting philosophies that work the best are the ones that are flexible to adapt to the needs of each individual child, rather than try change the child to fit into the boundaries of a "parenting philosophy".

AP is easier to the extent of less work for Mom, the cost for me has sometimes been more than I bargained for. There have been times when my sex life has suffered, where I've been ready to scream because I'm tired to being touched, and where I'm just so exhausted I could cry.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
perhaps we should start a thread about all of the things we don't do or struggled with







nobody is perfect.. and even the seemingly perfect AP mama might have relationship trouble, fertility trouble, financial trouble, crazy In laws, be in poor physical health, want nothing more then to be a WOHM/ SAHM, go to bed at 2 am and get up at 5, have a house that looks like a tornado went through it, orders in every meal they eat except what comes from her boobs, or she might struggle to do all that she does and still have time to read a book, watch a movie, etc.

everyone struggles with something, nobody is the perfect mom and nobody has the perfect life. its hard to judge without the whole picture yk?


Just look through their past posts







.


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 

...

Anyway, back a bit more on topic. Take MDC here







. There are always a bunch of parents who say "I'll never be as great a mom as these MDC moms! AP is too hard because I'm not 'crunchy enough'. How do I live up to the impossible MDC standards?" and the flaw in the logic here is this- the vast majority of the time, you see people's "good sides". They talk the most about the things they are passionate in. So you get a few MDC'ers who really are great at cloth diaper issues. Others are big advocates of breastfeeding. Many want to talk about their natural births. Some are really well read on gentle discipline. So, it comes out looking like MDC is full of super-people when really, it is some people are great at some things and not so big on others. The diaperer might not do the healthfood thing (so they most likely will not post in those forums or talk about it much). The breastfeeder might not have found a natural birth an important part of their parenting experience. So, they just don't go there. So, when we find out that, lo and behold, there are OTHERS who have lost it and yelled, others who have struggled with nursing, others who have gone through the McDonalds drive through... Well. We feel a little better. We're not perfect, but NO ONE is. There IS some peace in that. This "bad parent" thing takes the idea one step further.

...


THANK YOU for this wonderful post.









I had never really put my finger on it... but I guess I was feeling MDC mamas were nearly perfect.







I think you described why I was feeling that way and gave a great explanation. Again, I didn't even think I was feeling this way until you put words to it. Your post gave me an unexpected sense of relief.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Yup, I had the natural birth and did it to perfection. Breast feeding (exclusively, not even using a bottle of EBM for the most part) has been a breeze and not even really a hassle for me at all (spare two or three days of sore nips which have never returned). I still have a higher sex drive than my husband even after giving birth, and the only disagreement we've had since our baby came three months ago was his getting a little annoyed that a week after birth I was resuming totally normal activity and he thought I should rest more! Our marriage/relationship has never been better! Gee, makes me sound awesome? Well... I'm not. I guarantee I'll never make home made baby food. I can't even cook for myself. I use a stroller... it's so hot here that unless I'm inside in the air conditioning, I couldn't stand having a baby pressed against me all the time in a sling (I have one, but when I'm in air conditioning, I just carry my baby in my arms). My kid sleeps in a bassinet next to my bed since he was about seven weeks (I think?) and only bedshares for his early morning meal and until I then get up for the day, and he had has vaccinations. But he's not circ'd! lol

But yeah, there's no perfection here, and you're right that we tend to share our good sides which we're passionate about. I don't know which end of a shovel to dig with, so you won't find me on the gardening threads. I'm so happy with my incredible birth that I wish I could relive it over and over so you find me on a lot of birth threads. Just the way it goes


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
Yup, I had the natural birth and did it to perfection. Breast feeding (exclusively, not even using a bottle of EBM for the most part) has been a breeze and not even really a hassle for me at all (spare two or three days of sore nips which have never returned). I still have a higher sex drive than my husband even after giving birth, and the only disagreement we've had since our baby came three months ago was his getting a little annoyed that a week after birth I was resuming totally normal activity and he thought I should rest more! Our marriage/relationship has never been better! Gee, makes me sound awesome? Well... I'm not.

And the thing is, what you are describing is only the VERY BEGINNING of parenting-- a drop in the bucket, if you will, but people get fixated on these as whether or not you are "AP." What I've found out (for myself here) is that the most important thing about AP isn't birthing, feeding, or even carrying a baby in a sling all day . . .it's gentle discipline. If someone FF, had an epi, used a crib, etc. but is amazing at gentle discipline, then I think THAT person is truly an AP. And that GD work is the work of a lifetime. And man, for me, is it hard!


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
GD work is the work of a lifetime. And man, for me, is it hard!
















Amen Sister!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

As for the baby sleeping through the night I don't judge anyone about what age their baby sleeps through the night but I do think there is proper and inproper treatment towards a child to reach that point. None of my children were left to CIO but my youngest slept through the night since the day we got home from the hospital for 6 hours a stretch in a bassinet then slept the rest of the night with me. Moved to a crib at 6 months, and at 14 months was in a toddler bed sleeping 12 hours a night and all I had to do to put him to bed was rock him for literally 10-30 seconds and say good night. I learned more about the benefits of co-sleeping and coslept with my middle child until they were 15 months, then co slept part time with them until they were 2 in their bed, then sometime after 2 they started sleeping through the night on their own more consistently. My youngest is over a year and still co sleeping and waking frequently. Anyway, my point is, I wouldnt say a mom isn't AP or is doing a bad job just because her baby sleep through the night at 2 months old. Or because their 3yo still wakes up at night. The only thing I think is realy wrong is treated a child poorly in order to gain a desired result, and IMO that is why I don't see CIO as something to be proud of. Being proud your baby sleeps through the night either... I can see being proud that you kept your patience and gave your child all the time they needed to learn to STN, but as I look at it, so what the baby learned to sleep. I mean its a GOOD thing but I don't understand why someone feels proud of that, ESPECIALLY if it was acheived by letting a baby cry so hard so long they were throwing up. How does one say "go me, im proud to be a bad mama and let my baby cry for 3 hours if thats what it takes for them to put themselves to sleep" I dont get it... what exactly is there to be proud of in that? Is it hard to ignore your child? if not, then why pride? if it was hard, then why are you proud that you ignored all your instincts while your baby suffered to achieve a goal that could be achieved without making your baby suffer?


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## schoolmom07 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
Maybe I'm dumb but there are people who don't feed (breast or otherwise) on demand? Even if you were a selfish louse, wouldn't you at least feed your hungry child to quiet him???

Unfortunately, there are many who believe they should schedule a child's feedings. As a mom who nursed and will nurse again, this is ridiculous to me as we don't eat on a schedule. I eat when I am hungry and sometimes when I am not! How do you tell a baby, "No, it is not time for you to eat yet, -don't care what your belly tells you-my clock knows better"! WTH? I also don't force my daughter to eat all that is on her plate and don't really stress the eat it even if you don't like it. I ask her to try it and sometimes she will, sometimes she won't and sometimes she will surprise me and ask to try something that even I won't eat--Onions, tomatoes, etc...raw! I know, I am the weinie not her...LOL! Although the video said that mom's are professionalizing being a mom, I don't agree. I believe that the importance of the job has been taken away and has been gone for some time. Too many think it is easy to be there 24/7, fulfilling every "need" not want--trying to run a household, maybe in a relationship at the same time, raising your one child or several others. I have been told that it is not work to which I reply, "Yes, it is but I just don't get a paycheck". I get paid with love, respect, sometimes anger, silliness, cuddles, etc...but I put in way more hours in a day than my husband when it comes to being on the job all the time. As I am sure most of you do as well.


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## schoolmom07 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i agree. DS is FF and while i am not proud of that but i do not believe that i am bad mother because of it. i tried to BF and between a jaundiced sleepy baby, lack of information, medication contraindicated while nursing, and the wrong kind of support i switched to Formula. i am pretty much 100% certain that i did the best i could in the situation i was in with the support and information that i had. i know next time i will do it differently. IMO thats what a makes a good mother.

BF is not easy when you have little to no support. I remember that I got engorged, had cracked bleeding nipples, you are working on little to no sleep and a baby who is hungry! Medications are another thing. If you have to be on something that is not conducive to BF, then that just throws another hurdle at you. You poor mama! If you have an infant who is also suffering from one ailment or another, then you will eventually find a way to get the two of you through those first few weeks. I hear you loud and clear! I did end up nursing but it did not make me a better parent. I enjoyed it and hope that with the right support, hopefully a healthier baby (jaundice free, I mean), information (WIC dept. is great for this if you have a BF advocate there), and medication changes or free of, you will be able to have this amazing experience! I still remember my first daughter's hand on my breast and marveling at how tiny it was. That is not all of it though, the little suckling noises, watching how that tiny nose moves kind of like a rabbit's, and I could go on and on...Although, watching a baby feed any old way would amaze me whether FF or BF as I am sure the similarities are there. Good Luck!


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

I think being a bad mom is not giving all that you have to motherhood as well as placing your child in a painful or dangerous position. I would LIKE to think that moms are all doing the best they can but sadly most are not. Am I perfect, VERY far from it but I have no problem saying where my short comings are and constantly working on them.
Now if you read this and get all huffy, maybe that is your own guilt, if so, own that guilt and doing something about it to change it.
I will freely admit my lack of patience with this topic ( it come up alot around here) is slightly bitter driven. If I was doing everything ' the mainstream way' what is going on in my life would be ok, accepted, no big deal. BUT because I do things differently than most around here ( locally) I have " made my own bed, now I have to sleep in it" is what I get alot. I think that AP here has saved us, yes it can be harder but didn't people's mamas teach that that more often then not the right thing to do is often the hardest? Or treat others how you want to be treated? Or others before self? Sadly these basic moral princiaples are vanishing from our society. When moms want to schedule a c section so that they are not inconvienced with the birth of there child, it sets up the mentallity that motherhood is all about mother, and how to make it easy for her. Motherhood isn't about pushing a cute little baby in a cute little outfit in a cute little pram on the way home from the nannies after you played tennis all day for the 5th day in a row this week. It isn;t about being able to turn mommy on and off when you feel like it. I think that is what socitey has turned it into. I think the world of moms who bust there hump all day long at work so that they can have food and a place to live and live in a decent area for there kid to grow up in, knowing most of that check is going to go to day care. It makes me sick for them, I could not imagiane that pain and frustration, to see moms throw motherhood around like a cool thing to do when they feel like it and piss there time away doing what THEY want while the child is with a nanny all day, all because mom " just needs to be herself still". Sorry chica, you are a mama now that that is what you should be to your child, of you didn't want all that comes with it don't do it.
Am I a perfect one, no!
List to come of what I do that is so wrong, baby up, off to nurse again!

Why some locals moms have said I am a bad parent:
I BF he until e self weaned at almost three, and still BF J
We still cosleep with J full time and E whenever he wants, ( usually 3 until he awakes for the day)
I let them play naked in the backyard in the sprinkler all day
i cut dairy and gluten out of e's diet
We are relaxed learners
I did not circ
I BF on demand
i WILL NOT vax ever again
J is still RFing in the car
I feel strong against CIO

there are more that are escaping me right now
but I am still coming to terms to things I did before I knew better with easton:

the doctor told me at 9 weeks that my milk wasn't enough for E and that he needs to be on three solids a day, formula inbetween and BM whenever I want inbetween, and I listened. that still weighs on me








oh he was 22lbs at that appointment on JUST my milk on demand, he said he nursed to much and that I needed to work on a schedule.

I turned he forward facing when he was 10 monthes because he was over thrirty lbs and screamed all the time. You would think that when the screaming still didn't stop that I would just turn him back around but I never thought of that, why would that matter?









I vaxed him for four monthes before I second guessed the coincidence in the encyphalitis after EACH round in him and the vaxes and all the other bad weird things too.

I tried CIO when I was at the end of my rope when he was ten monthes old, mad him worse, and he still remembers it









But when I was doing all these things everyone praised me on what a great mom I was, never got a second glance or thought from people, only when I started doing what I LOVE to do did I get a hard time, bad rep, and a 'bad mom' threat.....


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

Snipped:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Definitely true sometimes. But sometimes, all too often really, a mom makes it clear she does actually think another mom that does things differently is bad or a failure of sorts. And I have seen the terms "abuse" and "abusive" thrown around way too liberally at times.









:

I read and post on true crime boards. That's were you learn about real "abuse". Abuse IS children being beaten, abandoned, dumped in trash cans, sexually abused, raped, left to die in a bedroom a few feet from where the "parents" are because the "parents" couldn't be bothered to get off their video game to feed the baby. Abuse IS NOT using a stroller, feeding a baby formula, giving a kid food that is not organic, letting your baby fuss for a few minutes, using disposible diapers, not co-sleeping, etc, etc.

And why do people have to throw in derogitory terms for other moms like "helicopter mom" (just one I can think of that I've seen recently). Why?? What purpose does it serve other than to tear another mother down who is probably trying to do the best she can?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

the moms at the park call my aunt a helicopter mom. i have always thought hover craft was a more accurate description. she doesn't take it personally and i don't know why someone would. 'you watch your kid really closely' 'what? how dare you insult my parenting!' ..... huh? why would that bother people?

my family calls me an earth mother.. i call me she who has yet to clean to kitchen.

and erm.. what on earth is a true crime board? and lord it sounds depressing


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *camracrazy* 
And why do people have to throw in derogitory terms for other moms like "helicopter mom" (just one I can think of that I've seen recently). Why?? What purpose does it serve other than to tear another mother down who is probably trying to do the best she can?

Well exactly so why call yourself a "bad mom". Makes no sense. Then again I don't really see "helicopter mom" as bad but more of a description. But I don't think being one is a horrible thing even though I am not. Did that make sense?


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 

and erm.. what on earth is a true crime board? and lord it sounds depressing


True Crime discussions.

Caylee Marie Anthony - 2 - murdered most likely by her mother (who breastfed her!).

Haylee Donathan - 3 - missing with her mom and a dangerous sex offender who the mom (and dad, and mom's brother) helped escape from a half-way house.

Haleigh Cummings - 5 - still missing.

The list goes on and on.

As for the term "helicopter mom", like most words it isn't derogitory in itself, but the way some people use it makes it seem like it's a horrible thing.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

yikes... how on earth do you read that? i think it would make me sad.. and paranoid.. probably very paranoid.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i knew the thing about caylee anthony and someone said to me once "gosh and her mom BF..imagine how bad it would have been if she had FF" to me .. whose child is FF. wtf is that supposed to mean? how does it get worse then killing your child? how on earth could FF have possibly made that worse?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i knew the thing about caylee anthony and someone said to me once "gosh and her mom BF..imagine how bad it would have been if she had FF" to me .. whose child is FF. wtf is that supposed to mean? how does it get worse then killing your child? how on earth could FF have possibly made that worse?

Dude, no kidding!!! WTH????!!!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i know right! i was lucky i didn't burst into tears or haul off and smack her. it was not long after i started trying to re lactate .. and was struggling a lot with it.. i mean who the F#$% says that anyway?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i know right! i was lucky i didn't burst into tears or haul off and smack her. it was not long after i started trying to re lactate .. and was struggling a lot with it.. i mean who the F#$% says that anyway?

People who buy into the BFing/natural birthing automatically guarantees the optimum bonding no matter what and all BFers/NBers have the best relationship with their LOs ever. Much better than if they were to FF or get an epidural.

IIRC women were killing their children long before epidurals and formula came into play.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
If someone FF, had an epi, used a crib, etc. but is amazing at gentle discipline, then I think THAT person is truly an AP. And that GD work is the work of a lifetime. And man, for me, is it hard!

You just described my parents, except for the epi







. I think of them as AP and model my parenting on theirs because they took me seriously as a person with needs and opinions from the very beginning. My mom tried to BF, but inverted nipples prevented her; they say I was happiest in my crib - just drifted off peacefully when they put me down - I still don't like any physical contact with anyone while I sleep (we all co-sleep in a BIG bed







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
People who buy into the BFing/natural birthing automatically guarantees the optimum bonding no matter what and all BFers/NBers have the best relationship with their LOs ever. Much better than if they were to FF or get an epidural.

IIRC women were killing their children long before epidurals and formula came into play.









So incredibly silly! I had no pain meds at birth and am still bf my 2.5 yo, but I also had PPD and bonding took a LOOONG time. While I didn't actually want to kill my daughter, I did have fantasies of abandoning her, either by going away or by dying. How easy life would be if equations such as NB + BF + co-sleeping = healthy bond, happy mom & baby worked like that! (Or, the Babywise equation: scheduled feeding + sleep training + early corporal punishment = well-adjusted, happy, peaceful baby, rested parents.) They don't.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
Why some locals moms have said I am a bad parent:
I BF he until e self weaned at almost three, and still BF J
We still cosleep with J full time and E whenever he wants, ( usually 3 until he awakes for the day)
I let them play naked in the backyard in the sprinkler all day
i cut dairy and gluten out of e's diet
We are relaxed learners
I did not circ
I BF on demand
i WILL NOT vax ever again
J is still RFing in the car
I feel strong against CIO


One thing I've learned is that I don't discuss my decisions with most people. Most people don't KNOW we've co-slept, don't CIO, etc. Once I find out they do some of the same things, we might share stories, tips, etc. but that's about it. What I have found, unfortunately, is that when I bring things up is that people think it's an open invitation to make comments, weigh in with their opinions, etc. So I don't. Obviously some choices are more obvious (like when you are BFing) but I still don't talk about it to some people. . . it's not worth it.


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## Venia (Aug 21, 2008)

My major contention point with this whole article is that it seems to be about personally bucking a label, however ironically ends with adopting a new label.

It's not a logical or feasible conclusion to the point she was trying to get to and rather loses the entire message by it. I believe her whole point was to stop the mental comparisons we all make naturally within our minds, yet by adopting a new label you are almost forced to continue comparing and simply adopt the counter stance about all of the personal parenting goals you fell short on. Hardly a positive or constructive stance. Rebellion at its finest, but when its a personal struggle, no one wins. In fact everyone loses (mom and the kids). I honestly believe that the derived conclusion of her article was not her true intent, but obviously that is how many others are reacting to it...re: the media's interpretation. "Bad"....the new good ...its cool







Its totally lost......


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 

<snip>

I'm a heckuvalot less judgmental now than I was when my first was a baby. Over the years, I've come to see a lot more gray, rather than black and white. The experience with my youngest dd made me see even more gray.









:

In my job I work w/ families with young kids. In the beginning, I saw it as all black and white, and secretly judged anyone who didn't parent exactly like me. Nowadays, I no longer judge people for anything other than outright abuse or neglect, so long as I can see that they love and take good care of their children. I find that the great majority are doing the very best they can with what they know at the time. Every family is so different, but there are so many ways to take good care of one's children.


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
yikes... how on earth do you read that? i think it would make me sad.. and paranoid.. probably very paranoid.

It is hard to read, but I do think it is important to know about the surrounding issues. A lot of the stories (not all) have to do with sexual predators who got short prison sentences for their first (or second, or third!!) convictions, then got early releases for "good behavior" and then went out to abuse other children/adults. Of course a sexual predator who is attracted to children is going to be "good" in a prison enviroment, because their target isn't avaliable. For some reason young women seem to be inviting men into their lives that they know are sexual predators but for whatever reason ignore that fact. Nevaeh Buchanan is a recent example of that. She was 5. She's dead. Brooke Bennett. She was 13. She's dead.

The problems won't go away if we simply choose to ignore them by not reading about them or watching news stories about them. But maybe people that understand the issues can try to be a voice for change. We definately need longer sentences for sexual predators with no chance of early release.










Google Shia Travis if you want to see a heartbreaking account of real "bad parents".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NamastePlatypus* 
I think being a bad mom is not giving all that you have to motherhood...

Nope. I gave all I had to motherhood for years and years. DS1 got everything I had in me to give...and when dd finally came along, I didn't have much left. If I'd been a little less willing to give "all that I have" to ds1, it would have been better for dd and ds2. (Sure - my situation was complicated by emotional issues around ttc, m/c and an emotionally abusive marriage...but giving all I had was still not a great idea.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i knew the thing about caylee anthony and someone said to me once "gosh and her mom BF..imagine how bad it would have been if she had FF" to me .. whose child is FF. wtf is that supposed to mean? how does it get worse then killing your child? how on earth could FF have possibly made that worse?

That's one of the most effed up things I've ever heard. Aside from whatever issues her mom had, breastfeeding is _not_ a guarantee of a perfect mother/child bond, although I personally love it and would be heartbroken if it didn't work out for me. Breastfeeding does affect a woman's hormonal balance (I had a strong reminder of that when we lost Aaron, and sex was pain-free as soon as I healed from the section - we need lubricant when I'm breastfeeding, but not then), and that's not always going to work just the way it's supposed to, yk?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *camracrazy* 
For some reason young women seem to be inviting men into their lives that they know are sexual predators but for whatever reason ignore that fact.

Based on one woman I know, and the choices I've seen her make, I think it may be linked to the hackneyed "love of a good woman" thing. This particular person really believes that, just because she's a good woman, and is attracted to Bad Boy X (no sexual predators that I know of, but a huge assortment of other issues), she can "cure" him. She's actually said it, and everything about her behaviour backs up that she's thinking that way. It's kind of unnerving, honestly.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Based on one woman I know, and the choices I've seen her make, I think it may be linked to the hackneyed "love of a good woman" thing. This particular person really believes that, just because she's a good woman, and is attracted to Bad Boy X (no sexual predators that I know of, but a huge assortment of other issues), she can "cure" him. She's actually said it, and everything about her behaviour backs up that she's thinking that way. It's kind of unnerving, honestly.









this attitude blows my mind. from a woman who loves a few "bad boys" very very much you CANNOT change them. my best friends little brother who is, for all intents and purposes, is my little brother too is about as bad boy as one can get. i love him more then words, i watched him grow up, i would do nearly anything for him with in the realm of reason and he has never meet my son.

this guy has women falling all over him. it is ridiculous, i feel like he should come with some sort of Hazard label. these women move in with him, sleep with him, fall in love with him.... the whole time thinking they can change him. i can't imagine how you can fall in love with someone and want to change them... that doesn't really add up to me.

some guys are big jerks but they keep it hidden until to late... he has to personalities... nice and loving and wonderful and enraged and abusive. the women he hits always refuse to press charges or later drop them. they just want to make things work. he assaulted me once and i called the cops and filed a report... no marks so no case but i would have pressed charges if i could have. the kid needs to learn he can't flipping get out of everything. he just got out of an assault charge (g/f's parents made her press charges) b/c she turned 18 and decided to go to leave the state instead of pressing charges against the guy who assaulted her. WTF?

this has happened so many times it makes me ill. he wraps women (including his mother ... i love her dearly but its true) around his little finger. he is sweet and wonderful and has a whole host of other endearing qualities... up until he gets angry and puts his fist through a wall. but no one wants to press charges b/c they all believe that he really wants to be good (its true he does want to be good... he just doesn't want it bad enough to work for it) he really is sweet most of the time (also true but the times he's not are horrifying) and they know that if they love him enough and he loves them that he will change. nope sorry not a chance. there was one girl who i though had a fighting chance but she left him b/c it wasn't a healthy relationship for her (she's a sweetheart and is definitely better off) he was people who love him and people he loves... his priorities and his loyalties are where they are... and its going to take a flipping miracle to change that,

nearly every woman who has come into his life has left it much worse for the wear. emotionally mostly... but either way it still sucks. he loves his mom and his sisters (me and my best friend) i think the list pretty much ends there. ironically he loves his sisters who take every chance we can to try and make sure he gets caught when he does something stupid and/ illegal... and make sure he gets charged with it. not sure why.. but it is what it is. there is no changing him. he has to change himself.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I totally agree. I don't get the "I love him and I know I can change him" thing...and I get the "I love him so much, but want to change him so badly" thing, either. If I felt that someone needed that much changing, I wouldn't be getting involved, yk?

Oh, well - this is veering way OT, but I do find it really frustrating when it's around me. I haven't met her new guy yet, but I'm guessing...more of the same.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Oh yeah, I know this is the beginning of parenthood, and I know I am very lucky. That was my point!







I would be a real horses booty to judge anyone, really, considering. I've never been that woman or that man, and I've never parented that baby with their life experiences behind me.

That said, I'm 100% human, and I do feel sadness or upset when I find out that a friend did circ her son, or when someone says I ought to just, "let him cry" because I can't cope. My husband tells me to let him CIO. But I just can't. And I can't help but wonder how often my husband was left to scream as a baby, and just how sadly invalidated his needs and feelings were. He does the best he can, and he's a fabulous partner. I guess my point here is, I'm sometimes a bit judgmental for a moment, then I catch myself.

The dog world is no different, and there I am an expert. I feel a little more likely to judge there (not that it's right there, either) because I HAVE lived with just about every personality or problem dog imaginable in a decade of intense rescue work. Plus breeding, showing, training... and all different types and ages of dogs. I have a touch of the, "If I can train and handle and groom and care for six screwy rescue dogs, why can't you control your ONE little pet?" and now and then I get called on it and I'm glad. Not everyone is an expert, and I'm a total newbie about parenting. I'm having outstanding success so far, and it does come with guilt! Maybe I thought it would be so horrible that it being just so-so feels wonderful to me, or maybe I have the worlds most easy, charming baby, or maybe I was born to be a mom. Maybe his toddlerhood will suck and that's when I'll "finally" know that "I can't do this anymore" desperation. And heck, teenage years... oh, boy!









So yeah, I'm real, I'm human... and I try to always understand other peoples' experiences and actions. I am a SAHM with an easy baby and a happy marriage and a lot of freedom and amazing parents who raised me with pure love and acceptance and self regulating and trust. I learned a long time ago to count my blessings and lend a hand or an ear to someone- gets you a lot further than passing judgments does.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
Oh yeah, I know this is the beginning of parenthood, and I know I am very lucky. That was my point!









I guessed you knew that, but what I am saying that it seems like generally, those issues are the ones people get stuck on-- that somehow one is branded a "certain kind" of parent because of a certain feeding method they chose or how sleeping arrangements are.

Also, at least for me, with my 1st child, as mentioned in this thread by pps, I was FAR more black/white about issues than I am now. Take CIO. Would I ever do it with an infant? No, I would not . . .except in cases where it's actually better to walk away than have a nervous breakdown (my 3rd screamed for about the first 2 years of her life-- until she was WEANED, ironically). Or, there were 2 occasions where my 3rd DD (she was over a year) screamed _more_ when I was WITH her putting her to sleep, so I let her cry (she was alone) and then she went to sleep. Had she been baby #1, I probably would've second guessed myself a lot more about that, felt guilty, etc. I was also very judgmental that first year, but those later years (and children) taught me many lessons!


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

I don't think this Bad Parent Vs. Good Parent has anything to do with AP. It's just the backlash to the so-called Helicopter parenting. For so long I think Mainstream parents were under the impression that being a "super parent" meant you had to constantly schedule things for your kids. Activities every night of the week, push them to get good grades, make sure they have all the latest stuff, etc....I feel that AP is all about being a responsive parent. We're not trying to push our kids to be better, smarter, or more athletic...we're just trying to give them what they need. I think being a helicopter parent means you aren't really being responsive to their needs. A child needs some time to relax, play, have fun, and just be a child...they can't do that when you have them constantly running all over the place.


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## schoolmom07 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i don't think any of that has anything to do with being a bad parent. people just don't agree about things yk? some people are hover crafts some are more laid back... some people apply all rules to every child and some people tailor them to each child individually yk?

i guess i think that there are parenting choices that are much more important than these ones. these are little things that we all may have different opinions about but IMO are not worth beating yourself up over.

like mcdonalds or mac and cheese. does ds get it every meal? no of course not... but every once in awhile i take the easy way out and give him chicken nuggets or french fries... the only people who will know are the ones who are also in mcdonalds.. and i am sure they wont judge me









the bucket seat things kills me.. why would i wake a sleeping baby up to put him in a sling? the only reason i can think of is b/c you are worried about what other people will think if you don't.

basically i think there is a time and a place for things and moderation is key.

Again, 1littlebit, you have hit the nail right on the head! Bravo! It is already so easy to feel as though we as people don't measure up but if someone says "Well, that is just not right.." my answer is "According to whom"?


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