# Outraged! - Certainly I wasn't in the wrong?!



## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Every Friday my DS (who is nearly 3 years 3 months old) go swimming. Being the swimming pool, we make frequent pee trips. We did EC and I am sure he would let me know if he needed to go, but theres something about being in water that seems to make you need/want to go more frequently or something! lol...

Anyroad...its a trip to the loo on the way there, once there, and afterwards...

We then cruise the town (small as it is) - Visit the sweet shop, the library, and go to all the chairty shops to see if we can get any bargains (I usually get him a small used toy, and maybe find myself a top or something for cheap!)...

The last chairty shop is at the very end of the high street (its the last shop really)... Whilst there, looking at the tops and DS looking at the used toys - DS was doing a little dance and then informed me that he needed the toilet!

quick quick right?...

This does not happen often but happened a few months ago in the same shop.

So my son ran to the back of the shop where he knew the loos where (this child has a great memory for things like that!)... The 'back' of the shop door is always open, but its not a place for customers as its where they sort out all the donated items to put in the shop. So as he ran back there, a lady stopped him and said sorry he can't go back there as its not for customers. I said thats okay, we just needed to use the toilet real quick - he really has to go. She then looked me in the face and flat out lied to me saying 'We do not have a toilet in this shop'... I said 'that is a lie because he had to use it a few months back'... Another lady in the back (there were only 2 there) looked at me and said 'Well...the toilets are not for customer use!'... I said 'its for my son, hes only 3 and really needs to go and when children have to go, they gotta go!'... They proceeded to tell me that they were sorry, but I could not let him use it and that I could walk up the high street to the public loos! ... I said that doesn't leave us much choice, he will just have to pee outside the shop then as he wouldn't make it that far to the toilet! And so thats exactly what happened.

1). Small children are not able to do all that thinking and planning and working around time and distance when it comes to using the toilet. A parent, such as myself, can help as much as they can (by making sure everyone uses the toilet before you leave the house, etc)...but inevitably, and it does happen, you will be out somewhere and they will need to go regardless!...

and

2). A small child an not 'hold' it until you walk the 5-10 mintues it takes to get to a public loo! You might be lucky and be near one or out in the middle of nowhere with a bush around or something...but it is unrealistic to expect them to hold if. If your child can..great!...A parent knows their child and their bladders though...and I know my son would have wet himself by the time we got all the way over the other side of the high street to the public loos!

I was furious as you can imagine!







I could no just risk him wetting himself. Its negative something degress out there (as in blood freezing!) and since hes been using the toilet independently from 17 months of age (thank god for EC!), I do not exactly have need to carry spare clothes around for him. Shame...he could have just wet himself there on their carpet!







I am also not going to carry a spare set of clothes around for him just in case something like that happens again to him - I will not let him humilate himself just because people are being rude! - Hes a little boy! Anyone else would have just let us use the toilet (we live in a very small village!) - It not like he is purposly saving up all his wee just so he can use the toilet there!

He had to pee (and got his pants a little wet) badly as soon as we got outside of the shop - so he had to pee right there on the pavement. I am not exactly pleased about having his naked body on show in public either! (as much as we happily are nude at home, being naked out in the middle of a shopping centre is a different story!)

I seriously felt like crying when I left that shop!









Would you have done that as well?

I am thinking of writing to Oxfam (which is the chairty that it is) and telling them how outraged I am at the way my son was treated becuase he had to pee and how he had to then pee outside in public on the pavement! I feel like I should not shop there every again!

Would it have been such a hard and bad thing for them to have let my DS pee in their toilet?







:


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

I would have asked if my son could use the washroom and not just told them I was using it. They don't have to let you use it, so being polite as possible is a great way to get your needs met.


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## kokonutmama (Feb 12, 2006)

A friend of mine had a similar experience when she was preschool age. She had to go poop and a security guard at a museum wouldn't open a door for her mother to get her to the toilet... so her mom told her to do her business on the floor... and she did.









I know from my parents owning a small shop when I was young that there are laws about whether a toilet can be used by "the public" or only by employees. It's a liability issue, too. Obviously, there are cases where the spirit is more important than the letter of the law... I'll bet the employee that you dealt with felt really torn, and never had a kid of her own, lol.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawncayden* 
I would have asked if my son could use the washroom and not just told them I was using it. They don't have to let you use it, so being polite as possible is a great way to get your needs met.


I asked the lady at the front whilst my son was running into the back - the same lady that referred us to the back a few months ago.
When we left (and I was clearly angry) - she sate there looking rather shocked and confused about what had gone on. I think she saw it as a pretty simple thing as well. Child needs to pee - let child pee.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

It's a liability issue, too.
and this is what the world has come to! - Its really rather silly and sad!

What would I sue for?...the toilet paper being too rough? lol


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

At the last place I worked the owners were extremely strict about no one but employees coming in the back of the store. We were told not to allow anyone back to use the toilet. There were no exceptions. They would have fired an employee who let someone come back to use the toilet.
I'm not sure I would have risked my job over someone needing to pee when there were public toilets in the area.

I would write a letter complaining to management about their store's strict policy but leave out your anger at the employees.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

See now, I can understand a place having no restrooms that a child or the public could use. They can say they have no toilet or no toilet suitable for public use (I've seen some tiny stall things as an employee that I wouldn't want a child of mine in and I might say that to a mother.) However, in this case, he's used it before, so clearly they do have one he can use and they should have just let him use it again. Sorry OP!


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
What would I sue for?...the toilet paper being too rough? lol

My son had an accident at 4 years old that involved a toilet, falling in, cutting the base of his penis (where it meets the body), ER visit, sedation, stitches and surgical glue. I have no doubt there are people in the world who would sue if that had happened in a public place (it didn't, it was at home).


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I think that's insane. We've used lots of bathrooms at stores that have no public bathroom. When you have a 2 (or 3) year old who needs to go, they need to go. We've never been refused. Ever.

I wouldn't be going back.


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## KyleAnn (May 24, 2004)

This happened to my ds a while back at a store that we used to frequent, although he had never used their bathroom before. We had been in there a while, I had a bunch of things in our basket to buy...he ran up to the gal and asked very nicely if he could use their restroom, while doing the peepee dance...she looked at him, then to me and said, "No-for security reasons we are not allowed to let anyone use the bathroom." It was very frustrating and down right sad as I could see he was about to have an accident. I tried to appeal to them and even said, "please, he's just a little boy, he cannot hold it, etc. .." A flat unsympathetic NO was all I got.









Yeah it stunk...I remember I dropped my basket right there, scooped him up and literally ran with him to the end of the strip to the next nearest store, people staring at us all the way, LOL. Had there not been another open shop at the end of the block, would I have let him go right outside? Probably...







in the parking lot by my car, yes.

I was upset about it for a while afterwards and still have never set another foot in that store.

It's a crummy situation but I wouldn't stew over it. I wouldn't return back there again though either. Sorry you had such a frustrating experience.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
My son had an accident at 4 years old that involved a toilet, falling in, cutting the base of his penis (where it meets the body).

oh, ow poor baby!


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I work retail and we used to allow customers to use our restroom. Used to. Until we had a few too many instances of the bathroom being left.... filthy. Filthy doesn't even describe it. Pee and loose feces everywhere. I can't make my associates clean it up - that's not right. So I and my manager end up cleaning the mess up. No more. If you have to go? There are public restrooms less than a minute away.

I sympathize as a parent. As a manager? Sorry - go use the public restroom.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh mama, that is too bad. I would have done exactly what you did.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
I work retail and we used to allow customers to use our restroom. Used to. Until we had a few too many instances of the bathroom being left.... filthy. Filthy doesn't even describe it. Pee and loose feces everywhere. I can't make my associates clean it up - that's not right. So I and my manager end up cleaning the mess up. No more. If you have to go? There are public restrooms less than a minute away.

I sympathize as a parent. As a manager? Sorry - go use the public restroom.

A FEW too many?? As in, this happened more than once? More than twice??? OMG!!!


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
My son had an accident at 4 years old that involved a toilet, falling in, cutting the base of his penis (where it meets the body), ER visit, sedation, stitches and surgical glue. I have no doubt there are people in the world who would sue if that had happened in a public place (it didn't, it was at home).

Ow, poor guy!!

OP- I would've done the same thing, have him pee right outside the front door! (actually though, I really don't see anything wrong with a toddler peeing outside anyway, for the reasons you stated, they just can't always wait to get to a toilet). At three, I would probably still carry a change of clothes; even w/out potty concerns he's still likely enough to find some mud to play in, or spill food/drink on himself etc. ......I don't see why they wouldn't let him pee, but you never know if there are reasons (like stated above, risking losing your job) that you're not aware of.... but stll


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
A FEW too many?? As in, this happened more than once? More than twice??? OMG!!!

Yep. Which is why we no longer allow our customers to use our employee restroom.

I'm a mom myself and have had to clean up my share of accidents. But... I'm sorry... I'm not paid enough to clean those of strangers.


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## petitchou (Mar 10, 2008)

When I was working retail, we were not allowed to let customers use the toilets for all the reasons stated above - mainly liability. Bathrooms have to meet certain criteria to be used by customers and ours didn't. However, if it was a young child who was obviously in desperate need, most of us would make an exception. Generally, if the parent asked, I would explain the store policy and if they made a point that it was for their child, then I would go ahead and let them use it. I can see both sides and it's a tough call.

I think I would have asked the lady at the back again even though ds had used the bathroom before and you had already cleared it with the other woman. She had no way of knowing that you had already asked the woman up front.

And I can't believe she lied to you about not having a bathroom! That's just crazy - why on earth would she just downright lie like that? I would have been really upset about that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The company has the right to whatever policies they feel work for them. I also have the right not to go to their store again, and in this particular case, I wouldn't. I have no problem with businesses having no public washroom, but if they can't or won't make an exception for a small child, then I don't want to shop there with my small children. (IME, most places _will_ make an exception for a small child...or a pregnant woman.)


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
Yep. Which is why we no longer allow our customers to use our employee restroom.

I'm a mom myself and have had to clean up my share of accidents. But... I'm sorry... I'm not paid enough to clean those of strangers.

I was confused once when a coworker leapt in front of someone to block her from going into the restroom. Turned out she was a repeat projectile vomiter.









I've had ds use an empty (disposable) drink bottle quite a few times in the OP's situation. Even carried one around on purpose when he was younger.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I agree- it stinks, but there are reasons (for the customer- not even the mess for employees). Often times in "non-public bathrooms" the store may place cleaning chemicals for storage and they may be dangerously accessable to anyone using the bathroom, full moping buckets with dirt or chemicals in them out in the open, they may not be safe for all people for other reasons (clutter, repairs or construction, etc.). There may be security concerns or unsecured merchandise on the way to the bathroom and that may be an insurance issue...

Like others said, as a mother- total sympathy and can understand being upset. As a person who believes sometimes rules like this are not just arbitrary, I think a public bathroom is what needed to happen. Sorry... It must have been really lousy







.

Ya know... Thinking about it, there are some really innovative "potty on the go" type seats/pottys and things for toddlers and pre-schoolers if your is a "gotta go NOW!" kinda kid. I remember thinking they would be good on long trips and such (but mine does not seem to be an "urgent bathroom kid"). Like this: http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/...dProductId=153


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't think you can expect access to a bathroom at every store you go to. You kind of just have to plan, like when you have access and you aren't sure when you will again, ask your child to go potty then because it's available. That way things should be OK until the next time one becomes available. And if your child could still have an accident, then it's a good idea to bring extra clothes, in case that happens.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

We've been in a similar situation at Once Upon A Child when dd was a toddler. I'm fine with someone telling me we can't use the bathroom for a toddler emergency because it's against policy -- it sucks, but it's their choice. But lying about it? That's not cool. And that's where it's their choice to run their business that way, and it's my choice not to bring my business to them any longer.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah, it wasn't right for her to lie about it, but I bet it was her job to clean the bathroom. In that case, if it's known to be a place where a bathroom is available, then it seems like you should be able to count on that. I know where every available bathroom in town is. LOL.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

They have the right, at least where I live, to deny the bathroom to the public. Should they have mercy on a little kid? Yes.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
I agree- it stinks, but there are reasons (for the customer- not even the mess for employees). Often times in "non-public bathrooms" the store may place cleaning chemicals for storage and they may be dangerously accessable to anyone using the bathroom, full moping buckets with dirt or chemicals in them out in the open, they may not be safe for all people for other reasons (clutter, repairs or construction, etc.). There may be security concerns or unsecured merchandise on the way to the bathroom and that may be an insurance issue...

Like others said, as a mother- total sympathy and can understand being upset. As a person who believes sometimes rules like this are not just arbitrary, I think a public bathroom is what needed to happen. Sorry... It must have been really lousy







.











My friend has run up against parents in the last place she worked because they didn't allow the public to use their washroom. But it was literally the only place they had to store cleaning supplies, tools, and a money safe. Sorry, but in that situation it's safe to make no exceptions even (especially?) for small children. She sympathized though, but the answer was still no.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Keep in mind that they often store stuff (cleaning supplies, extra stock, etc) in the "employees only" section of the store. There very well could be a tripping hazard in the back of the store.

Just because the toilet was relatively safe and accessable a few months ago does NOT automatically mean that it's safe and accessable right now. They might have moved more things into the area since your last visit to the store. And if there's no bathroom available for the public, then it's not a lie to say "there's no bathroom for you back here."


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

We basically had this happen yesterday. We used the toilet at the court house before my sister's marriage ceremony, then we went back to the first floor, walked a block, crossed the street, and alexander said he had to pee again. I went into the building closest to us, some copying/fax shop, and they told me they didn't have public restrooms. I asked if they knew a place closeby and they said the courthouse.









We usually carry a travel potty with us but we were with my mom and I hadn't thought to stash it in her truck before we left. So we put him in the carseat and went to the closest fast food place instead. I understand why the people wouldn't let him use the toilet - the liability issues, etc - and I still wish they would make an exception.

He didn't have an accident, lucky for us.







We got there in time.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

Dependent upon policy the store had every right to turn you down. Did they do it very nicely? no, but it sounds like you got very rude as well.

Possibly management told them they could no longer allow it.

More stores than not do not have public restrooms here, I plan around it.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
A FEW too many?? As in, this happened more than once? More than twice??? OMG!!!

yup. i worked in restaurants for years. ppl do disgusting things in bathrooms.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I prefer to support those businesses that can put common sense before policies when and *if* appropriate. A small child who *really* needed to go? They were just lucky he didn't pee right there on the carpet while they persistently denied him access.

Common sense is that young children _have to go when they have to go_ (and I say this as one of those moms who carries a plastic jar in the car just for pee emergencies...so yes, I am definitely planning ahead and know I can't expect bathroom access).

If I were working at the store, I'd much rather take the risk of cleaning pee off tile in the bathroom than the potential of having to get it out of the carpet. Not only were they in the wrong, they were taking a big chance.

I would write a letter to management as well. We really need to become more family friendly in western culture.

Oh, and by the way, my dad, who is a business consultant (and also just genius, though I don't agree with everything he says) had an interesting relevant blog post once called "rules schmules".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I prefer to support those businesses that can put common sense before policies when and *if* appropriate. A small child who *really* needed to go? They were just lucky he didn't pee right there on the carpet while they persistently denied him access.

Common sense is that young children _have to go when they have to go_ (and I say this as one of those moms who carries a plastic jar in the car just for pee emergencies...so yes, I am definitely planning ahead and know I can't expect bathroom access).

If I were working at the store, I'd much rather take the risk of cleaning pee off tile in the bathroom than the potential of having to get it out of the carpet. Not only were they in the wrong, they were taking a big chance.

If they had to move cleaning products, tools or something equally dangerous into or close to the bathroom then it's not just about cleaning up pee.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I prefer to support those businesses that can put common sense before policies when and *if* appropriate. A small child who *really* needed to go? They were just lucky he didn't pee right there on the carpet while they persistently denied him access.

Common sense is that young children _have to go when they have to go_ (and I say this as one of those moms who carries a plastic jar in the car just for pee emergencies...so yes, I am definitely planning ahead and know I can't expect bathroom access).

If I were working at the store, I'd much rather take the risk of cleaning pee off tile in the bathroom than the potential of having to get it out of the carpet. Not only were they in the wrong, they were taking a big chance.

I would write a letter to management as well. We really need to become more family friendly in western culture.

Oh, and by the way, my dad, who is a business consultant (and also just genius, though I don't agree with everything he says) had an interesting relevant blog post once called "rules schmules".









:


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## KBinSATX (Jan 17, 2006)

How strange that they didn't let a little boy pee in their precious toilet...
I would write headquarters - just to get some closure because it would otherwise just keep bugging me...


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

I don't blame the business. Yeah, it sucks that your ds wasn't able to use the bathroom there, but there could be a large amount of reasons why.

I would imagine that if their bathroom isn't set up for public use and isn't up to public use codes they could get some hefty fines for allowing someone to use it. And what if your ds slipped and fell and had to go to the hospital? Would you have expected them to cover the bill? Well... if they weren't supposed to allow customers back there in the first place who knows if their insurance would cover it or not?

The employees were just doing their jobs.

If you are really upset about it I just wouldn't return to that store.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I think it sucks. I understand not letting the public use your toilet - I worked in retail too some of the people that used the toilet had very questionable hygiene. BUT I wouldn't think twice about letting a toddler / preschooler use it. I would probably say no to an older child, but little one *have to go NOW!* and it would be humiliating for the poor little thing to wet themselves in the store - not only that, but you probably would have got the stink eye for getting pee on the floor. DS1 gets embarrassed if he has an accident at home with just DH and I, I couldn't imagine his humiliation if it happened in public!


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## amynbebes (Aug 28, 2008)

I thinks it's ridiculous that they wouldn't let him use the toilet. I understand wanting to keep general public from using their restroom but they most assuredly should have made an allowance for a little boy.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

My daughter works in a shop and they don’t allow anyone in the back area where there is a toilet as their was many thefts of wallets and personal items as that’s where staff store their bags, it was left a mess and it’s also where they count money and store stock and cleaning supplies and its small and filled with boxes so it's hard for people to get past.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I agree with pps

The company had ever right to refuse your request, but...

it is very common for companies to make exceptions for small children/pregnant women.

Who knows why this woman didn't. Perhaps she had been lectured by her boss about letting people back there. Perhaps she knew that the bathroom was filled with breakables they had no other space for. Perhaps she was just in a bad mood.

It is a very tough situation.

Btw, my mom had IBS, and when she had an attack (which would come completely unexpectedly) she had to use a bathroom RIGHT NOW. She quickly learned every store/location in town where she could use a bathroom. It was tough - she had a couple of accidents - and not pee accidents - because most stores will not let a 50 year old woman without kids use a bathroom.

Ironically, years later, when as a result of her cancer, she had to have a colostomy bag, she joked with us that "Now I will never need to beg a store owner to let me use their bathroom again! No more accidents for me!" (okay, rather dark, but I actually find this a positive memory of my mom during a pretty dark time).


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## abeliamama (Feb 5, 2007)

I work in retail and we don't let the genral public use the restroom. It's where employess store wallets and purses and you have to pass the by the office where laptops and money are. We also store cleaning products, chemicals and objects that could cut someone. That said, we will let small kids or pregnant women use it. We figure a mom will closely watch her kid in a small bathroom. We do require that an employee stand in the back until the people come out. This can be very inconvenient if we are busy and the kid is taking a while to complete his/her business. And yes, honestly, I don't want to have to smell what smells people leave in there that waft out into the stock room and office while I work. The backroom is also where people have to eat lunch and that's not very appetizing.

This makes we worry that we could be liable if something happened with chemicals, etc.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
My son had an accident at 4 years old that involved a toilet, falling in, cutting the base of his penis (where it meets the body), ER visit, sedation, stitches and surgical glue. I have no doubt there are people in the world who would sue if that had happened in a public place (it didn't, it was at home).

Unfortunately, sometimes people don't choose to sue- their insurance company does.

But I still think exceptions should be made in case of emergency- for children and adults. Common sense says it's better to let people use the toilet than clean urine or diarrhea off the floor.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

I can totally see both sides. If that's they're policy it's not fair to expect the woman to get herself in trouble. On the other hand, it seems pretty small-hearted to say no to a 3-year-old who's about to wet himself.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Unfortunately, sometimes people don't choose to sue- their insurance company does.

But I still think exceptions should be made in case of emergency- for children and adults. Common sense says it's better to let people use the toilet than clean urine or diarrhea off the floor.

And there is a liability issue in bodily fluids on the floor too LOL.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If they had to move cleaning products, tools or something equally dangerous into or close to the bathroom then it's not just about cleaning up pee.

Parents generally accompany small children when they head to a public restroom. Seriously, I still think common sense should prevail.

Actually, a couple months ago both my 2 and 3 year old and I took a walk down to a very small, neighborhood grocery store. It is about three or four long blocks from our house. dfd is in diapers...no problem there. ds had gone pee before we left, so I figured he'd be all set. Well, sure enough, we get there, we find the one thing we had to get (while dfd and ds act like maniacs...liability red flag!), we go check out, and suddenly ds has to go poop. I ask him first, looking at him very seriously as if to urge him to say "yes" if he can wait until we get back home (like I said, we were in the middle of checking out). He said "no" and looked at me pleadingly with complete panic in his eyes, and the owner of the store looked at us both sympathetically. I apologetically asked if we could use the restroom, and she said no problem and directed me there.

My gosh...if ever there were liability issues! We walk to the back of the store where she has directed us, and we are standing in a narrow area, surrounded by stacked boxes. I find I have to take a very large, heavy peice of largely unsanded wood off the length of the door to "unlock" it (we live in a large city, fwiw) to get to the back. Then, we are in a very small area that on the left leads straight to a large stove in the kitchen of the restaurant next door, and the door is of course open, revealing a number of restaurant staff busily rushing around. In front of us is all kinds of cleaning supplies, and behind that is a door, opened, and a screen door leading to a parking lot. To the right of us is the bathroom, a small, dimly lit room with tools and things stacked in the corner.

Despite my kids being maniacs, we were able to safely use the small restroom without incident. I was with my children the whole time, and held onto dfd tightly throughout. I know the clerk could see that despite my wild children, I was a concerned mother who would do anything to keep my child safe in the bathroom. I am sure that she balanced all that information in her consideration of the decision to let us into the bathroom. Human beings are actually often pretty good judges in delicate balancing acts like this. This clerk rightfully let common sense prevail.

I suspect this is a common event in bathrooms across nations and that the number of lawsuits over bathroom issues pale in comparison.

I was also very thankful I wasn't forced to find a tree outside by which my son could poop. It would have been absolutely humiliating for him, and really gross for all kinds of folks coming to these businesses.

Much as we plan ahead, hey, emergencies come up.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
But I still think exceptions should be made in case of emergency- for children and adults. Common sense says it's better to let people use the toilet than clean urine or *diarrhea off the floor.*

Or walls, the doorknob, the sink, the boxes we have stacked in the bathroom, the mop bucket, the cleaning supplies, the toilet paper and paper towels, etc. From customers a variety of ages. Frankly, I'd rather just mop up a puddle on the floor. Easy, peasy, done in a flash.

And yes, we do store a lot of stuff in back, including in the bathroom.

Our public restrooms are actually only 2 doors down. As much as I'd like to accommodate, the answer is no.


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
A FEW too many?? As in, this happened more than once? More than twice??? OMG!!!

I worked at KFC near a navy base entrance... do I need to say more? Okay I will.

Single guys would come in after partying, they'd be hammered and want to get some food. Apparently the tasty smells of KFC made their bowels loose because night after night the toilets would be covered in the foulest loosest shit and we'd have to clean it. That and barf. Oh yeah, fun times.

But, if I was the manager and we had a no public potty rule, I'd at least have the freaking compassion to let a small child use it. I'm a mother, a three year old isn't gonna leave anything behind I haven' seen and cleaned up before and I'd much rather show kindness and good customer service than be a hard ass over something so petty.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
Parents generally accompany small children when they head to a public restroom. Seriously, I still think common sense should prevail.

Actually, a couple months ago both my 2 and 3 year old and I took a walk down to a very small, neighborhood grocery store. It is about three or four long blocks from our house. dfd is in diapers...no problem there. ds had gone pee before we left, so I figured he'd be all set. Well, sure enough, we get there, we find the one thing we had to get (while dfd and ds act like maniacs...liability red flag!), we go check out, and suddenly ds has to go poop. I ask him first, looking at him very seriously as if to urge him to say "yes" if he can wait until we get back home (like I said, we were in the middle of checking out). He said "no" and looked at me pleadingly with complete panic in his eyes, and the owner of the store looked at us both sympathetically. I apologetically asked if we could use the restroom, and she said no problem and directed me there.

My gosh...if ever there were liability issues! We walk to the back of the store where she has directed us, and we are standing in a narrow area, surrounded by stacked boxes. I find I have to take a very large, heavy peice of largely unsanded wood off the length of the door to "unlock" it (we live in a large city, fwiw) to get to the back. Then, we are in a very small area that on the left leads straight to a large stove in the kitchen of the restaurant next door, and the door is of course open, revealing a number of restaurant staff busily rushing around. In front of us is all kinds of cleaning supplies, and behind that is a door, opened, and a screen door leading to a parking lot. To the right of us is the bathroom, a small, dimly lit room with tools and things stacked in the corner.

Despite my kids being maniacs, we were able to safely use the small restroom without incident. I was with my children the whole time, and held onto dfd tightly throughout. I know the clerk could see that despite my wild children, I was a concerned mother who would do anything to keep my child safe in the bathroom. I am sure that she balanced all that information in her consideration of the decision to let us into the bathroom. Human beings are actually often pretty good judges in delicate balancing acts like this. This clerk rightfully let common sense prevail.

I suspect this is a common event in bathrooms across nations and that the number of lawsuits over bathroom issues pale in comparison.

I was also very thankful I wasn't forced to find a tree outside by which my son could poop. It would have been absolutely humiliating for him, and really gross for all kinds of folks coming to these businesses.

Much as we plan ahead, hey, emergencies come up.

Well not every parent feels the need to accompany small children to the bathroom. I worked in a family restaurant for a while and many, MANY parents would just send their 4 yo back to the washroom alone.


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## samrawet (Nov 24, 2008)

bed luck


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

I'm a mom myself and have had to clean up my share of accidents. But... I'm sorry... I'm not paid enough to clean those of strangers.
eh, they'll just piss on the floor of the dressing rooms anyways







when I worked in retail we had several floor pissers even though we did allow bathroom access.

seriously though, I do feel bad for your little boy having to pee out in the cold.


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## belovedofbast (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
A FEW too many?? As in, this happened more than once? More than twice??? OMG!!!

I don't work retail, but at a public pool. We are responsible for cleaning the locker rooms/bathrooms etc. Let me just say that the "public" is disgusting, without getting into gross detail. I mean...is it really that hard to poo INTO the toilet? Instead of BESIDE it...

I have sometimes felt like I would like to find out where this person lives and go take a poo in front of their toilet (or basically repeat what they did to our facility)

Off topic, sorry


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Well not every parent feels the need to accompany small children to the bathroom. I worked in a family restaurant for a while and many, MANY parents would just send their 4 yo back to the washroom alone.

On the other hand, if there are safety concerns, I bet most parents would be willing to do so upon request.


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## txdancer (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I prefer to support those businesses that can put common sense before policies when and *if* appropriate. A small child who *really* needed to go? They were just lucky he didn't pee right there on the carpet while they persistently denied him access.

Common sense is that young children _have to go when they have to go_ (and I say this as one of those moms who carries a plastic jar in the car just for pee emergencies...so yes, I am definitely planning ahead and know I can't expect bathroom access).

If I were working at the store, I'd much rather take the risk of cleaning pee off tile in the bathroom than the potential of having to get it out of the carpet. Not only were they in the wrong, they were taking a big chance.

I would write a letter to management as well. We really need to become more family friendly in western culture.

Oh, and by the way, my dad, who is a business consultant (and also just genius, though I don't agree with everything he says) had an interesting relevant blog post once called "rules schmules".

making exceptions is something that a business should never do. One of the businesses that I work for was sued last year over an incident that happened when a child got hurt in a non-public restroom after an exception had been made. They settled out of court for a lot of money, and as a small business it nearly killed them. The shop was completely correct in what they did from a liability standpoint. Regularly making exceptions and allowing people to use their nonpublic restrooms opens them up to huge liabilities.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I'd go back to the store... so I could speak to the manager and tell her that due to her employees rudeness and their lack of consideration for a small child's biological needs I would not be coming back to their establishment... and that I would be letting anyone with a small child know that they also should not shop there since small children are not respected.

There was absolutely no call for that employee to lie to you and be so flat about a toddler's needs.

Screw liability, we are talking about a three year old boy and him being treated with zero compassion.

The establishment could require that parents accompany the child, they could've signed a waiver, they could have at least EXPLAINED the reasons why...

If the public restrooms were just two doors down it would be different, but from the OP's description they were pretty far down the street.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Unfortuantely, if the parents are so inclined to steal, the kid can be used as a convenient carry all.

I wouldn't have believed this (and resisted at first security procedures that required that I essentially frisk young children and babies) but I've personally pulled drugs, weapons, and other contraband off kids and from diaper bags, ect.

I've also known people who purposefully used children to shoplift (not getting the KIDS to shoplift, but essentially using them as a carry all).

And sadly, the people who shoplift/steal, contrary to public opinion, actually CAN'T be typed by how they look/act most of the time.

So honestly, while personally I probably would have allowed a young child to use my store restroom so long as we were staffed to have an accompanying staff person (outside the door), I understand how blanket policies get made.

Not only can people be absolutely disgusting in regards to bathrooms and changing rooms, I think most people would be shocked at how parents and other guardians use their kids as well.


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## ebbybaby (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm kinda on the fence with this, I know from past experience nannying and babysitting (yet to have personal exp aside from professional exp in this as my oldest is only 1) that anyone 4 and under still needs to be asked constantly that they need to "go" or I tell them to go just to empty anyways so we'll be good for a lil longer...thats before we leave any place that does have a public washroom, but I honestly timed it as well as I myself "go" frequently and so I'd even stop at extra places just to see if they needed to go, I never left it to chance that there might be a washroom at a store I could let them use. I honestly believe I've never had a kid have an accident because of this.

I know from being a staff member at quite a few places, if it was only for staff use I appreciated it only being for staff use. There are so many people who let their kids piss all over the seat and don't clean up after them, even if they are assisting them... maybe the store had had some bad experiences and made that new rule, because you were so hasty/urgent rather then asking politely about it we're rude back to you.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I generally expect when we go to a store that we'll have a 50/50 chance of being allowed to use their bathroom, and it doesn't bother me too much when they say no.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
I'd go back to the store... so I could speak to the manager and tell her that due to her employees rudeness and their lack of consideration for a small child's biological needs I would not be coming back to their establishment... and that I would be letting anyone with a small child know that they also should not shop there since small children are not respected.

There was absolutely no call for that employee to lie to you and be so flat about a toddler's needs.

Screw liability, we are talking about a three year old boy and him being treated with zero compassion.

The establishment could require that parents accompany the child, they could've signed a waiver, they could have at least EXPLAINED the reasons why...

If the public restrooms were just two doors down it would be different, but from the OP's description they were pretty far down the street.

Sorry but it comes to a choice between having to clean up an accident or ending up with no job, no money and no home because of an exception. I'd rather do the cleaning. And so would most store managers and owners. A 3 yos need to pee doesn't trump a companies need to protect themselves from the litigious society that has developed. Not to mention that it's illegal to let someone use a bathroom that doesn't meet safety codes for the public. At least here it is. And no a 3yos needs don't trump the law when it's someone else that has to break it.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
There was absolutely no call for that employee to lie to you and be so flat about a toddler's needs.

Well, if we wanted to be technical, it wasn't a lie - the store does not have a public restroom.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
The establishment could require that parents accompany the child, *they could've signed a waiver,* they could have at least EXPLAINED the reasons why...

And don't you think that, if they had to sign a waiver, the kid would've pissed his pants in the meantime anyway?

As for liability, it's very cavalier to state

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
Screw liability, we are talking about a three year old boy and him being treated with zero compassion.

Screw liability? In our litigious society? Heck no.

Look - I'm a mother of two kids. Somehow, they survived their younger years w/o pissing on anyone's floor, etc. As have millions of other kids around the world through many generations.

Would you allow a total stranger who knocked on your door and asked to use your bathroom (even if they had a 3yo with them) into your home? I'd be inclined to say no.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

Unfortuantely, if the parents are so inclined to steal, the kid can be used as a convenient carry all.

I've also known people who purposefully used children to shoplift (not getting the KIDS to shoplift, but essentially using them as a carry all).

And sadly, the people who shoplift/steal, contrary to public opinion, actually CAN'T be typed by how they look/act most of the time.
This is SO TRUE. I've watched people shove all manner of stuff down their kids pants, into a stroller, in a sling, in the kid's jacket, etc. And they certainly do use the kid to go through the backroom (oh no, lady, you go on, we'll find our own way back out) for the "bathroom" and help themselves to anything they can on the way out (employee bags and property included). YOU know you're a nice person who will watch her child and clean up any mess, but they have no way of knowing that and believe me, MOST people do not know how to behave in restrooms. I wonder if they can't aim at home either.

I would imagine "we don't have a restroom" is their standard reply and the person who let you use it the first time got chewed out, now that they know about it. That's why it's not worth making exceptions. If I make an exception and the next person doesn't, then the customer is ticked off but *I* am the one who is going to get in trouble.

One of the many reasons I'm glad not to be working in retail.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

that was a "charity" shop? where is their charity in this situation? so, people donate their used toys and clothes, and the charity shop sells them to raise funds?

doesn't sound like "deep pockets" to me; they aren't going to be sued for a toilet mishap. and clearly the kid wasn't in a ruse to steal stuff. it was an amazing lack of compassion. haven't you ever had to pee *so bad* while out and looking for a place to stop?

if these people really were that rude to you and you were a long time customer there, possibly someone who has donated to them as well... i'd say: spread the word far and wide that this particular store gave you this particular experience. never go there again and do your best to get others to boycot the store as well.

and i wouldn't equate it to a stranger coming to your front door out of the blue to ask to use your toilet. you were a *customer* a patron of their store, giving them your money for purchases. they should at the very least have a big sign up "no public restroom" if they have recently changed their policy. and if your son got to use the restroom there the last time, the compassionate thing for them to do would have been to let him use it again since it was an emergency, with a warning that this will be the last time, we aren't allowed to let people use it anymore.


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## amnda527 (Aug 6, 2006)

I used to work at an eye glass store. There were patients files in the back by the bathroom, so I think that was part of the reason that we could not open our bathroom to the public. Another reason was because if we get someone in there who takes a massive dump, and clogs up our toilet, *I* don't want to be the one to have to clean it up. Some people think it's funny to make a mess too...I'm not getting into it. If we didn't have the files in the back, and someone came and asked if their small child could use the bathroom, I'm sure I would have let them.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElliesMomma* 
that was a "charity" shop? where is their charity in this situation? so, people donate their used toys and clothes, and the charity shop sells them to raise funds?

doesn't sound like "deep pockets" to me; they aren't going to be sued for a toilet mishap. and clearly the kid wasn't in a ruse to steal stuff. it was an amazing lack of compassion. haven't you ever had to pee *so bad* while out and looking for a place to stop?

You don't know that someone wouldn't sue for a toilet mishap simply because they don't have deep pockets, neither does the store. And the store certainly doesn't know if the parent planing on using their child to steal something either. You can't tell just my looking. DH was up at the store last week and a woman with an infant, looking just as sweet as can be and nothing like a thief was escorted back into the store because she had tried to use her son's stroller to slip something out of the store without paying.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
And sadly, the people who shoplift/steal, contrary to public opinion, actually CAN'T be typed by how they look/act most of the time.

I've never understood why people think they can. I had a friend who worked at Woolco years ago. I ran into her one day and chatted with her for a few minutes. A security guy in the same store followed her at work, hassled her, reported her as "suspicious" and searched her _mother_ after seeing her talk to her daughter. Why? Because my friend had been seen talking to me, and I was an "obvious" criminal type. He was convinced, based on seeing her talk to me _once_, that my friend was some kind of criminal mole...the inside person for a gang of shoplifters.

Fortunately, sanity prevailed and management eventually canned him. The whole thing was so bizarre...but a less extreme version of his view of the world is widespread.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Wow, you must look like a really bad, bad person! Either that or stereotypes are rampant. Unfortunatly it most likely the latter...







:


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

It would be nice if stores of a certain square footage were required to have a public restroom. I know my dd have peed on the floor before when told there was no public bathroom, and we would have made it to the bathroom they wouldn't let us into. Luckily, I think restaurants are required to have bathrooms for customers. I have been told at little shops that bathrooms are "out of commission" I find that so gross I quit shopping at them


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never understood why people think they can.

Racism and classism, to be blunt.

I can bet you too that stores that might very well make exceptions for a suburban caucasian-looking mom and child would likely NOT for someone not fitting into that description.

Which I guess in a way is why I kind of support across the board enforcement of whatever the policy was.

I agree with another poster though that it would be nice if stores of a certain size or above be required to have a public restroom.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Certainly she shouldn't have lied or been rude to you, not matter what the circumstances. Beyond that, it depends.

If there was no policy on customers using the restroom and she was just playing power games, then that was very wrong. If there was a policy about customers though, then she was right to enforce it, but wrong in her approach. Unfortunately, just because you used it before doesn't mean there isn't a policy now. Maybe there is a new manager, or a new insurance policy. Maybe they've had some problems and changed their policy. If there was a policy, she could have lost her job for not following it. The needs of a child to use the restroom don't, IMHO, outweigh the needs of an adult to feed their family.

I think I would call and speak to the manager. Ask if there is a "no customers in the restroom policy". If there isn't, then report the clerk who was rude to you. If there is, explain that you are sorry but that means that you will no longer be able to shop at their store.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I don't know if this makes any difference, but I believe there was a memo sent around all Oxfam shops about two months back reminding the volunteers not to allow any members of the public to use the toilets. Typically with Oxfam, only the manager (and if it's big enough, the assistant manager) are paid employees- the charity depends heavily on the goodwill of volunteers and the public.


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## east carolina (Apr 5, 2006)

Op, I'm sorry you were upset about this, and I can see why, but I personally wouldn't have made a big deal out of it.

I would have found it odd that another employee would not let me use the bathroom when another would, but since it's not technically a public bathroom, I'd know that using it was at their discretion and that they'd have the right to refuse me or my DS access.

Actually, I've been in your situation many times, and I never assume that the store will have a bathroom we can use. We rush outside and find a gutter. I don't think little kids should feel ashamed about peeing or pooing outside in a gutter or against a tree and my DS has no problem with being creative about where to do his business, lol.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Every Friday my DS (who is nearly 3 years 3 months old) go swimming. Being the swimming pool, we make frequent pee trips. We did EC and I am sure he would let me know if he needed to go, but theres something about being in water that seems to make you need/want to go more frequently or something! lol...

Anyroad...its a trip to the loo on the way there, once there, and afterwards...

We then cruise the town (small as it is) - Visit the sweet shop, the library, and go to all the chairty shops to see if we can get any bargains (I usually get him a small used toy, and maybe find myself a top or something for cheap!)...

The last chairty shop is at the very end of the high street (its the last shop really)... Whilst there, looking at the tops and DS looking at the used toys - DS was doing a little dance and then informed me that he needed the toilet!

quick quick right?...

This does not happen often but happened a few months ago in the same shop.

So my son ran to the back of the shop where he knew the loos where (this child has a great memory for things like that!)... The 'back' of the shop door is always open, but its not a place for customers as its where they sort out all the donated items to put in the shop. So as he ran back there, a lady stopped him and said sorry he can't go back there as its not for customers. I said thats okay, we just needed to use the toilet real quick - he really has to go. She then looked me in the face and flat out lied to me saying 'We do not have a toilet in this shop'... I said 'that is a lie because he had to use it a few months back'... Another lady in the back (there were only 2 there) looked at me and said 'Well...the toilets are not for customer use!'... I said 'its for my son, hes only 3 and really needs to go and when children have to go, they gotta go!'... They proceeded to tell me that they were sorry, but I could not let him use it and that I could walk up the high street to the public loos! ... I said that doesn't leave us much choice, he will just have to pee outside the shop then as he wouldn't make it that far to the toilet! And so thats exactly what happened.

1). Small children are not able to do all that thinking and planning and working around time and distance when it comes to using the toilet. A parent, such as myself, can help as much as they can (by making sure everyone uses the toilet before you leave the house, etc)...but inevitably, and it does happen, you will be out somewhere and they will need to go regardless!...

and

2). A small child an not 'hold' it until you walk the 5-10 mintues it takes to get to a public loo! You might be lucky and be near one or out in the middle of nowhere with a bush around or something...but it is unrealistic to expect them to hold if. If your child can..great!...A parent knows their child and their bladders though...and I know my son would have wet himself by the time we got all the way over the other side of the high street to the public loos!

I was furious as you can imagine!







I could no just risk him wetting himself. Its negative something degress out there (as in blood freezing!) and since hes been using the toilet independently from 17 months of age (thank god for EC!), I do not exactly have need to carry spare clothes around for him. Shame...he could have just wet himself there on their carpet!







I am also not going to carry a spare set of clothes around for him just in case something like that happens again to him - I will not let him humilate himself just because people are being rude! - Hes a little boy! Anyone else would have just let us use the toilet (we live in a very small village!) - It not like he is purposly saving up all his wee just so he can use the toilet there!

He had to pee (and got his pants a little wet) badly as soon as we got outside of the shop - so he had to pee right there on the pavement. I am not exactly pleased about having his naked body on show in public either! (as much as we happily are nude at home, being naked out in the middle of a shopping centre is a different story!)

I seriously felt like crying when I left that shop!









Would you have done that as well?

I am thinking of writing to Oxfam (which is the chairty that it is) and telling them how outraged I am at the way my son was treated becuase he had to pee and how he had to then pee outside in public on the pavement! I feel like I should not shop there every again!

Would it have been such a hard and bad thing for them to have let my DS pee in their toilet?







:










First of all, you were not wrong at all. It is shameful to allow your child to be on show in public, but you HAD to do what you HAD to do. It was either that or wet pants. You were no way wrong for that.

Secondly, I'd never, ever, ever go back to that shop again. I can't believe that they'd not have any compassion on your little one and allow him to use the toilet. Don't they realize that little ones that age can't hold it for long?! Sometimes, I wonder where people's compassion is. Some lack it seriously. Do write the organization. You have a voice and have the right to express your feelings. That treatment was so unfair.

Something similar happened to me, except it was not with a child. It was me. I'm completely incontinent and depend on diapers twenty-four/seven. I went to the ice cream shop with my friend and her children. We had not a chance to stop elsewhere so I could change the diaper, and I'd thought I'd be okay. Assumptions are never a good thing because I wet, and the diaper started to slightly leak, and if I sat down in the chair, I'd soak my clothes. This place would not allow customers to use the toilet, but I thought they'd allow me to due to special circumstances. I asked and explained my situation, but they would not budge. They had not a lick of compassion. I just said they were heartless, and I went to the giant down the street. I couldn't believe it. Here I am totally blind, incontinent, and desperately needing to take care of things before they got bad. It didn't matter to them. Id did not matter that I'd have to cross a dangerous parking lot that had cars coming from all directions. It also did not matter that I wasn't too comfortable because by now, my pants were slightly wet, and the air outside was not exactly the warmest. But because I did not want to ruin the rest of my day, I let it go.

I'm so sorry you had to endure such a thing. I don't know what I woudl have done. I hate stupid people and people that lack compassion for others. I'd probably have lost it in their faces though I'm learning to control my anger towards such individuals. I don't get angry at much else, but I lack patience when it comes to stupidity and ignorance, and a lack of compassion. Maybe, I'll better handle such individuals as I learn more in spiritual counceling, but a hot temper is one of my biggest flaws, especially when it comes to the ones I mentioned above. Again, I'm so sorry for your circumstances today.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawncayden* 
I would have asked if my son could use the washroom and not just told them I was using it. They don't have to let you use it, so being polite as possible is a great way to get your needs met.


Sometimes, you can be sweet as sugar, but if the person doesn't have a heart, it doesn't matter. I was polite, also, as that is how I like to start things off. I only lose politeness if given a reason to.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

I see both sides, as many pp's.

I'm near the Illinois/Missouri border. I thought some years ago, one of these states passed a law that said any public establishment HAD to provide a bathroom. I can't remember which state. But, I found this neat site

American Restroom--Fighting for your right to use the restroom

There are a lot of cases like the OP's story.


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## Ceili (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
and this is what the world has come to! - Its really rather silly and sad!

What would I sue for?...the toilet paper being too rough? lol

It's not just a liability issue, at least not in the US. The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) requires that any public bathroom meet standards for accessible design.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pranamama* 
It would be nice if stores of a certain square footage were required to have a public restroom. I know my dd have peed on the floor before when told there was no public bathroom, and we would have made it to the bathroom they wouldn't let us into. Luckily, I think restaurants are required to have bathrooms for customers. I have been told at little shops that bathrooms are "out of commission" I find that so gross I quit shopping at them


Not all eating places are required to, apparently because the ice cream shop I went to did not have one for the public.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Sometimes, you can be sweet as sugar, but if the person doesn't have a heart, it doesn't matter. I was polite, also, as that is how I like to start things off. I only lose politeness if given a reason to.

I think it's unfair to assume that someone "doesn't have a heart" because they won't let a child use the restroom. For all we know, the ladies at the shop were yelled at by their boss for letting customers use the restroom. Or maybe they were tired of cleaning up after messy customers. (I just scrolled back and saw that there was some kind of a memo sent out) I sincerely doubt they woke up that morning trying to figure out how to deliberately hurt people's feelings.

OP, I understand why you might have been upset, but I'm also seeing a complete refusal on your part to be proactive. If you're going to be out doing errands with a little one, then the responsibility is on you to keep a change of clothes or have some kind of a backup plan in case something happens. Also, how do you know for sure your DS wouldn't have made it to the public restrooms? A lot of times when my DD says that she has to go NOW, she can still make it some distance if we are not near a toilet. It seems from your OP like you got upset over your altercation and then let your DS just pee outside, rather than trying to get to a toilet.

With a little one, I would keep a change of clothes with me (for any kind of accident really) and if I had a kid that frequently needed to visit the toilet and had urgent situations where he could not make it if there was not a toilet in the immediate vicinity, then I would consider using pull-ups or cloth training pants for outings until he was older and a bit more able to hold it a little longer in these situations.


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## TiffanyPartyOf6 (Sep 2, 2008)

My kids have peed in many parking lots, sides of roads, you name it LOL. In fact, we live in St. Augustine, FL and we were in the historic area and they had locked up the bathroom for the night (it was about 12:30, but we had just finished our "Ghost Train Tour") DS is 5 and needed to use the bathroom badly - we had been on the tour for almost 2 hours and he needed to go. So we found the nearest tree and he let loose. LOL


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i manage a shop. we do not have a "public" restroom.
small child or pregnant woman needs to go, we let them use our restroom.
common sense and common decency.

once an old, old man came in and ask to use the restroom. he wasn't feeling well. he was heading for the VA across the street didn't think he could make it. i let him and he made a huge mess in there. i called a VA worker to come get him and help him. i cleaned up the mess in the bathroom. it sucked, but you know what, it was still the right thing to do. the guy was gonna lose it. in public. that would've been really horrible for him.

do i let joe shmoe off the street use the restroom. no! but joe schmoe isn't the one asking. why is that "discrimination"? joe schmoe can most likely hold it to the public restroom four stores down.

i don't give a rat's butt about "policy" it's called being a decent human being. if my employer didn't understand that, i would quit. i wouldn't be concerned about keeping a job where i was threatened with firing for letting a CHILD use the restroom. i know posters are playing devils advocate here but seriously what has happened to common decency (and sense) in this world? are we really so concerned about losing some low paying retail job that we're fine with someone who can't hold it peeing or pooping their pants? that's so not right.

ann of loxley- this is ridiculous. i would write Oxfam a letter and tell them their sense of "charity" is a bit screwed up if their employees can't (aren't allowed to) understand the concept of a small child needing to pee.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
My son had an accident at 4 years old that involved a toilet, falling in, cutting the base of his penis (where it meets the body), ER visit, sedation, stitches and surgical glue. I have no doubt there are people in the world who would sue if that had happened in a public place (it didn't, it was at home).

Holy Moly that would be awful. Poor Kiddo.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

I can see both sides here, though of course I sympathise with you, OP. I would like to think that people could be compassionate in such cases, but I can see why some staff would struggle with making exceptions.

Though ds uses the potty very reliably at home, he still wears nappies when we are out (or I take a change of clothes).

I really admire mothers who do EC - but in my town, I don't know how I would manage it, unless I stayed at home all day or visited grassy parks only. The public facilities are few and far between, and there are few places that are child friendly. Even now, I tend to limit my outings with ds to the few places that I know have a decent restroom (eg library, one particular cafe, another bakery, toy library etc). These places also tend to be generally more tolerant of little kids.

Many places (including my ex-favourite craft shop, and, strangely, one of the toy shops) have a negative attitude toward toddlers. Hence, I vote with my feet and do not go to those stores anymore. In your case, OP, that experience would have given me such a bad feeling, I wouldn't go back into that shop, charity or not.


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## Mummyof2ooo (Jul 16, 2007)

I would def write a letter! You are prob not the only mother who this has happend to or will happen to and letting them know might have them change things up.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i manage a shop. we do not have a "public" restroom.
small child or pregnant woman needs to go, we let them use our restroom.
common sense and common decency.

once an old, old man came in and ask to use the restroom. he wasn't feeling well. he was heading for the VA across the street didn't think he could make it. i let him and he made a huge mess in there. i called a VA worker to come get him and help him. i cleaned up the mess in the bathroom. it sucked, but you know what, it was still the right thing to do. the guy was gonna lose it. in public. that would've been really horrible for him.

do i let joe shmoe off the street use the restroom. no! but joe schmoe isn't the one asking. why is that "discrimination"? joe schmoe can most likely hold it to the public restroom four stores down.

i don't give a rat's butt about "policy" it's called being a decent human being. if my employer didn't understand that, i would quit. i wouldn't be concerned about keeping a job where i was threatened with firing for letting a CHILD use the restroom. i know posters are playing devils advocate here but seriously what has happened to common decency (and sense) in this world? are we really so concerned about losing some low paying retail job that we're fine with someone who can't hold it peeing or pooping their pants? that's so not right.

ann of loxley- this is ridiculous. i would write Oxfam a letter and tell them their sense of "charity" is a bit screwed up if their employees can't (aren't allowed to) understand the concept of a small child needing to pee.

Very well said!


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceili* 
It's not just a liability issue, at least not in the US. The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) requires that any public bathroom meet standards for accessible design.

Exactly, and for this reason, many older stores have had to restrict customer usage of restrooms. In other words, they have to have accessibility to all people, including wheelchairs, or nothing at all. To retrofit many bathrooms would be entirely too cost prohibitive for many older stores, so instead they have to have no customer restroom.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 

i don't give a rat's butt about "policy" it's called being a decent human being. if my employer didn't understand that, i would quit. i wouldn't be concerned about keeping a job where i was threatened with firing for letting a CHILD use the restroom. i know posters are playing devils advocate here but seriously what has happened to common decency (and sense) in this world? are we really so concerned about losing some low paying retail job that we're fine with someone who can't hold it peeing or pooping their pants? that's so not right.

*I'm glad you're in a position to up and quit a job.*

I (as many others) are not able to do that, even if it is low pay. Yes, I am "really so concerned about losing _some_ low paying retail job" that I would turn someone away for using the bathrooom *if that is what my manager said.* Especially now in this economy. If you have "some low paying job," you better hold onto it. And I wouldn't risk my job for someone's bathroom urge. Sorry.

Customers at work get mad at me all the time, for rules I follow because the *manager tells me to*. If the manager cares about the business, he will accomodate the customers better. But it is not up to the minimum wage worker who has a family at home to feed.

(I'm not bolding to be snarky. Just bolding to emphasize that it's the manager who makes the rules and the low paid employee is the one to carry out the rules).

Sorta OT:

I personally do turn people away for using the bathroom at my job under certain circumstances. We DO have a "public" restroom, but all the workers work alone (one person per shift). It's a place where you lock the doors after midnight. We have the option of allowing people in the building, but it is completely our jurisdiction. So...if someone comes to my job at 3am to "use the restroom", they don't come in my building. Suddenly "we don't have a public restroom. Sorry." There are several well lit, highly populated gas stations down the street.

The guy who robbed me while I was pregnant wanted to "use the bathroom" (aka: case the place). At 3am...I don't care if you're female, male or have kids. My job is not a normal place for a pit stop so it puts up red flags for me. (Sadly, many criminals do use children to help them commit crime, as a pp mentioned).


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I can see why you would be upset and yes I think you have a right to be. If my very young child was denied access to a bathroom at a store I would not shop there again. The store was of course within their right to refuse just as I would be to tell everyone I know how they don't care enough to have a bathroom for paying customers.
I was at a store once when DD had to go. She was maybe 3. I had a bunch of clothes. The lady said I had to take her across the street as their bathroom was not for the public. I politely said oh wow okay. She said I will hold these till you get back. I told her I wasn't carrying my kid all the way across the street to pee just to come back in here and spend my money. I said sorry and left. She looked dumbstruck. It would have been funny if I wasn't in such a hurry. I had a bunch of stuff really and I know it must have sucked to put it all back.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I generally expect when we go to a store that we'll have a 50/50 chance of being allowed to use their bathroom, and it doesn't bother me too much when they say no.

That's us too. Our local card store let my Dd use their bathroom after a little hesitation and when I went I knew why the were uncertain. The bathroom had lots of boxes with their stock of knick knacks and cards and lots of stuff to be sold. I think they let us b/c we lived next door and we were frequent customers.
I totally understand when we're told no...but I am still irritated b/c of the inconvenience.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:

*I'm glad you're in a position to up and quit a job.*

i'm not in a position to quit a job but i think everyone is in a position to decide who they will work for. if i had an employer tell me that i was not allowed to let a child or a pregnant woman to ever use the restroom i would look else where for employment. that would speaks volumes to me about 1) their trust of my judgment 2) their compassion for other people

Quote:

I (as many others) are not able to do that, even if it is low pay. Yes, I am "really so concerned about losing _some_ low paying retail job" that I would turn someone away for using the bathrooom *if that is what my manager said.* Especially now in this economy. If you have "some low paying job," you better hold onto it. And I wouldn't risk my job for someone's bathroom urge. Sorry.

Customers at work get mad at me all the time, for rules I follow because the *manager tells me to*. If the manager cares about the business, he will accomodate the customers better. But it is not up to the minimum wage worker who has a family at home to feed. (I'm not bolding to be snarky. Just bolding to emphasize that it's the manager who makes the rules and the low paid employee is the one to carry out the rules)
if an employee of mine took what i told them as the letter of the law, no exceptions ever, and didn't use their best judgment thus angering a customer- in this economy- i'd be pretty freaking mad! i'd probably fire them for not making the customer happy. employees need to use their best judgment to keep the customer satisfied. a 3 year old is way different than a 10 year old. a suddenly nauseous 10 year old is different than a 20 year old. there is no way management can write policy for every situation.

Quote:

Sorta OT:

I personally do turn people away for using the bathroom at my job under certain circumstances. We DO have a "public" restroom, but all the workers work alone (one person per shift). It's a place where you lock the doors after midnight. We have the option of allowing people in the building, but it is completely our jurisdiction. So...if someone comes to my job at 3am to "use the restroom", they don't come in my building. Suddenly "we don't have a public restroom. Sorry." There are several well lit, highly populated gas stations down the street.

The guy who robbed me while I was pregnant wanted to "use the bathroom" (aka: case the place). At 3am...I don't care if you're female, male or have kids. My job is not a normal place for a pit stop so it puts up red flags for me. (Sadly, many criminals do use children to help them commit crime, as a pp mentioned).

i'm sorry this happened to you. that is horrible! i can see why you would be concerned about people using the restroom. if i were working somewhere alone at 3 am no one would ever use it either.

in the case of the OP though we're talking about a small shop, a regular customer with a young child, in the middle of the day, on the main shopping street. no excuse, imo.


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i'm not in a position to quit a job but i think everyone is in a position to decide who they will work for. if i had an employer tell me that i was not allowed to let a child or a pregnant woman to ever use the restroom i would look else where for employment. that would speaks volumes to me about 1) their trust of my judgment 2) their compassion for other people

Sorry, but I agree with the PP on this one.







If you are in a position where you can cater to your overall sense of morality, and decide whether an employer is compassionate enough, then you don't NEED that job.

After he got out of the Army, my DH tried (and failed) to find a minimum wage job - ANY minimum wage job - for about three years. To support us. And he was unable to. I think at that point he would have taken a job that would have been to wear a clown suit and scare babies in strollers if it meant that he could have supported us.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
I was at a store once when DD had to go. She was maybe 3. I had a bunch of clothes. The lady said I had to take her across the street as their bathroom was not for the public. I politely said oh wow okay. She said I will hold these till you get back. I told her I wasn't carrying my kid all the way across the street to pee just to come back in here and spend my money. I said sorry and left. She looked dumbstruck. It would have been funny if I wasn't in such a hurry. I had a bunch of stuff really and I know it must have sucked to put it all back.









That sounds to me like the best way to change "policy." If I were the saleslady in that situation, and had lost out on a sale because "management" had told me I couldn't let anyone use the restroom, I'd sure be letting them know how their rule is costing them money.

And if I had been the one making the "judgment call" because I didn't feel like cleaning the bathroom (I honestly can't imagine doing that to anyone who needed to use the restroom, though, since I know full well what that's like







) -- well, I guess it would have shown me that it's even more work to have to put all the clothes back, and not even get a commission.









I guess this is what you'd call a "natural consequence."


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

having a chid that NEEDS to pee being pregnant ect does not entitle us access to no public bathrooms. I'm sorry the woman was rude and I agree that it would be great nice if people were more cosiderate and maybe thought a little more but if policy says no then it is a no.. The result might mean you child has an accident







and maybe to company will choose to change there policy because of this but other than that I really don't see how they were at fault. Nor do I think you did anythign horrid.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlpineMama* 
Sorry, but I agree with the PP on this one.







If you are in a position where you can cater to your overall sense of morality, and decide whether an employer is compassionate enough, then you don't NEED that job.

After he got out of the Army, my DH tried (and failed) to find a minimum wage job - ANY minimum wage job - for about three years. To support us. And he was unable to. I think at that point he would have taken a job that would have been to wear a clown suit and scare babies in strollers if it meant that he could have supported us.


Yup add me to that we are just now comming off a 5 year pretty much jobless time in our lifes there are many things we wouldn't compromise on but enforcing a no bathroom policy is just not on the list of battles I'd die over.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlpineMama* 
Sorry, but I agree with the PP on this one.







If you are in a position where you can cater to your overall sense of morality, and decide whether an employer is compassionate enough, then you don't NEED that job.

After he got out of the Army, my DH tried (and failed) to find a minimum wage job - ANY minimum wage job - for about three years. To support us. And he was unable to. I think at that point he would have taken a job that would have been to wear a clown suit and scare babies in strollers if it meant that he could have supported us.

alpine mama- i'm sorry your dh had to look for 3 years for a job! that must have been really really tough. that's so messed up that the Army doesn't give their soldiers any kind of civilian job training or job placement assistance or resume resources, something to help them re enter the civilian workforce!

i am slightly offended though that you assume i don't NEED my job because i feel a sense of compassion for small children and others in pee/poop/puke emergencies. my husband too has had a difficult time with jobs where we live. we live in a small town and his skills don't match the jobs that are available. it's been really tough for him to go from having a great career where he was compensated really well to making sandwiches at 4 am for just above minimum wage w/ no benefits. so as a matter of fact i am the primary breadwinner in our family. i still feel we both have a choice about who to work for and what we do to earn a living.

if i am working for a small family sort of shop (which i am) and my employer told me i was not allowed to let anyone ever use the bathroom i would let them know i had a problem w/ that and let them know why. (bad customer service and just plain mean.) if they still insisted, i'd look elsewhere for employment.

if that shop were even in existence it would be likely that there were other shops for me to go work in. shops like that don't operate in isolation. they tend to be grouped in places where there are other similar shops and businesses. the owner/management should be more concerned with how they are treating their customers. i know am in the shop i manage. that's probably why i'm the manager, because my employer knows i have good sense when it comes to customer service and empowering employees to do the same. it's good for her business. i know if a customer has to leave with a child to go 4 stores down to the public restroom they are probably not coming back.

ftr-i don't go around assuming i can use the restroom in every store i shop in, not at all. i actually assume i cannot. but in a store where i've shopped many times before if we were having an emergency i would think the employees would use good sense and good customer service and let me use it.

i just don't get the playing of devil's advocate every time someone comes on to vent about something. if the employee in the shop from the original post had said "oh no our restroom is broken today!" or just something with some sense of understanding of the urgency of the issue i don't think ann_of_loxley would've been "outraged". the point was the manner and circumstances in which they were told "no".


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It's hard to imagine anyone firing someone because they gave good customer service.









For the poster who said she didn't allow it because she didn't expect her staff to clean up the mess if there was one -- I don't imagine she'd fire someone who had compassion and said, "I'll clean up the mess if there is one."


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

I think the woman should have let the child use the bathroom even if it isn't policy, im sure if she had to tell her employer that a child used the bathroom she wouldn't have been fired... It is a special circumstance...

a little off topic...
When I was 9 months pregnant me and my husband had to meet his boss somewhere to get his paystubs, I urgently needed to use the bathroom and went into the closest place.. a bank. I asked a worker where the bathroom was and they asked if i was a customer I said no, and she said I couldn't use it then... I was in tears and couldn't reply and waddled away looking for somewhere else to go.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i just don't get the playing of devil's advocate every time someone comes on to vent about something. if the employee in the shop from the original post had said "oh no our restroom is broken today!" or just something with some sense of understanding of the urgency of the issue i don't think ann_of_loxley would've been "outraged". the point was the manner and circumstances in which they were told "no".

Last line of the OP...

Quote:

Would it have been such a hard and bad thing for them to have let my DS pee in their toilet?
If someone feels the answer to that question is "Yes, because there is more too it then needing to pee." They are responding appropriately. Some people aren't comfortable with lying just to make someone feel better. If they honestly feel the store has no public bathrooms for a reason and there for doesn't need to allow anyone to use it, that's what they will say.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't know that it's so much playing "devil's advocate" as it is trying to explain the other side. (as futile as that is, some people are just masochists I guess)

After all, other people on this thread have basically said that anyone not wishing to risk their job or allow any small child to use the restroom if they need it are all heartless b*s.

I don't get all the melodrama sometimes either, but you know, it's a message board. People come here to vent and say what they can't/won't/didn't-at-the-time-think-to say out loud.

I believe it's not exactly shocking that some people who have worked retail might come to defend themselves in general.

And the reality is a lot of things that people SAY they would absolutely do in an imaginary situation they might not if they actually were in that situation. I would hope that nobody would ALWAYS allow a woman and child to use the backstore restroom under ANY circumstance no matter what. And, barring being videotaped (which is always a possibility in today's work environment) I bet there's really nobody that would NEVER EVER EVER NEVER break that policy if A) they wouldn't be caught doing so and B) they felt that it was safe to do so.

I don't see any need to demonize these particular employees. The OP is irritated and frustrated and rightly so, but she ain't omniscient and omnipresent (that she admits to in the post, anyway







) so therefore she doesn't know the whole story or even the why.


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## east carolina (Apr 5, 2006)

I dunno. I've been in many situations where I or my DS was out and about and needed to pee and I don't assume that a private shop will have a public bathroom. If I ask and they let me use it, I'm grateful, but if they say no, I don't assume that they are mean, I don't take it personally and I look for an alternative. I am also not embarrassed about bodily functions, and will happily pee in the bushes at the park if it doesn't have a bathroom, or if it's too far away and really gross and dirty lol, or rather ewww.

Once I went with DS to a children's shoe shop to get him a pair. It was a store that sold only children's shoes. While we were trying shoes on, DS told me he needed to pee and i asked the saleslady if they had a bathroom he could use. She mumbled something about how they have to go next door and wasn't at all specific or helpful. It didn't phase me one bit. I just scooped DS up and and went outside to the street, leaving all our stuff in the shop, to find a gutter where he happily peed into. When he was done we went back inside, I bought him a pair of shoes. It never occurred to me that I or my child should be entitled to use a shop's employee bathroom or why I should be mad if I ask and they politely explain to me why not.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i'm not in a position to quit a job but i think everyone is in a position to decide who they will work for. if i had an employer tell me that i was not allowed to let a child or a pregnant woman to ever use the restroom i would look else where for employment. that would speaks volumes to me about 1) their trust of my judgment 2) their compassion for other people


Everyone is not in that kind of position, this isn't utopia. Some areas have a lot of easy to get low wage jobs and some don't. It sounds like you are forming your opinion based on an area that has a lot of job options whereas other people are forming theirs based on the reality in their area. I wouldn't leave a job just because they don't let people pee in their toilets. There are many single mothers in my area who work jobs they hate for many reasosn and they also wouldn't leave their job for a trivial reason. I have however sought other work after having a horrible manager who told us to do one thing while actually meaning for us to do something else then freaked out at us no matter what.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I used to be part owner in a store that had no public bathrooms but a toilet for the employees. It was a pit. rarely cleaned and stinky. But for heavens sake. if a child had needed to use the bathroom we would have grabbed him for you and ran to the toilet. better that than the floor. and even little ones are embarrassed to wet themselves









That said it was "illegal" because it was not handicap accessible.

I would not shop at a place that did not let you use their bathroom. thats just bad customer service. In a mall I don't expect place to have bathrooms but there had better be ones near by.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
alpine mama- i'm sorry your dh had to look for 3 years for a job! that must have been really really tough. that's so messed up that the Army doesn't give their soldiers any kind of civilian job training or job placement assistance or resume resources, something to help them re enter the civilian workforce!

Actually they do. It just doesn't work out as well for some than others. Depending on where you get to do it and who you know. They definitely need to restructure it though.


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## Literate (Jan 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Here I am totally blind......I am a conservative Christian, a servant of Jehovah, a hunter of animals, a country bumpkin, a fighter for justice, blunt and honest about EVERYTHING, open minded, and loving. I don't change for anyone!

OT and sorry for my ignorance, but you are blind and you hunt?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Literate* 
OT and sorry for my ignorance, but you are blind and you hunt?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Literate* 
OT and sorry for my ignorance, but you are blind and you hunt?

Why not?







Far as I know it's legal for blind people to hunt.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

i think i've read most of this thread and there seems to be a fair number of "child peeing in the gutter outside" stories- but almost all of them are from outside the United States. i think there was one in Florida. i live in Illinois, suburban Chicago. i've never seen a child pee outside on the street here, and i feel reasonably sure that if i asked my child to do it, i would be stared at (at the least) or reprimanded (or worse) for being unhygenic, unseemly, pornographic, etc. maybe i'm wrong, but that's my gut feeling about the advisability of asking a child to pee on the street around here.

i've read plenty of MDC threads where a child/parent is scolded for peeing outside on the playground, etc. people are sensitive about that, although i think it's perfectly fine to do it in the privacy of your own yard. i just don't see it happening in public.

i do read in this "debate" (and it is a debate, this particular thread) you're either in favor of stores letting people use a restroom, or against the idea that they should have to. i think perhaps the bottom line (no pun intended) is to beware which stores have restroom availabilty for customers anytime you go out shopping with your small children (or small bladder).

my child is still in diapers, but when the day comes that she needs bathrooms NOW, i am hereby forewarned. thanks!


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## trancechylde (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Why not?







Far as I know it's legal for blind people to hunt.

I don't think it's legality they're questioning...more like..."logistics"?
I would also be interested in how exactly this would happen


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trancechylde* 
I don't think it's legality they're questioning...more like..."logistics"?
I would also be interested in how exactly this would happen









Sound, special equipment and probably a guide.


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## east carolina (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElliesMomma* 
i think i've read most of this thread and there seems to be a fair number of "child peeing in the gutter outside" stories- but almost all of them are from outside the United States. i think there was one in Florida. i live in Illinois, suburban Chicago. i've never seen a child pee outside on the street here, and i feel reasonably sure that if i asked my child to do it, i would be stared at (at the least) or reprimanded (or worse) for being unhygenic, unseemly, pornographic, etc. maybe i'm wrong, but that's my gut feeling about the advisability of asking a child to pee on the street around here.

I think most of those were from me. Yeah, okay I don't live in the U.S. and last time we visited DS was still in diapers. But I think I would just do the same I do here, look for the nearest bathroom and if there's none available, find the nearest tree or gutter. I don't find anything unhygienic about it. Dogs to it too (pee outside, I mean). Or if people would give me a hard time about it, well, when in Rome.... and I'd just always carry around an empty plastic bottle that DS could pee into away from prying eyes.

I don't see grown people peeing or pooing on the street, but I see kids pee in gutter and in parks that have no bathroom. I've never been told not to, it's just not in issue here. And our city is mostly "dirty" because dog owners don't pick up after their dogs. not because humans of any size are refusing to prefer toilet.

But yeah, I guess Europe is more tolerant, or whatever it is, when it comes to kids peeing outside.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i'm not in a position to quit a job but i think everyone is in a position to decide who they will work for. if i had an employer tell me that i was not allowed to let a child or a pregnant woman to ever use the restroom i would look else where for employment. that would speaks volumes to me about 1) their trust of my judgment 2) their compassion for other people

Again, a relatively cavalier attitude. Yes, I could choose to work elsewhere where this wouldn't even be an issue as I wouldn't have the public to deal with. I'd make more money, but I'd also have an hour+ commute to deal with - each way. So I wouldn't be available for my kids' extracurricular activities.

The job I'm at now... I make more than a lot of folks in retail, I'm close to home, and I have a manager who works with me so that I can be there for my kids more often than not. Very few retail (or other) establishments offer that type of flexibility. As a single Mom, that's important to me. Especially in today's economy.

Again, our store is 2 doors down from the public restrooms. I feel no guilt directing folks there, instead of angsting over whether or not to allow them to use our *non-public* restroom. If that makes me a b****? So be it.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
Again, a relatively cavalier attitude. Yes, I could choose to work elsewhere where this wouldn't even be an issue as I wouldn't have the public to deal with. I'd make more money, but I'd also have an hour+ commute to deal with - each way. So I wouldn't be available for my kids' extracurricular activities.

The job I'm at now... I make more than a lot of folks in retail, I'm close to home, and I have a manager who works with me so that I can be there for my kids more often than not. Very few retail (or other) establishments offer that type of flexibility. As a single Mom, that's important to me. Especially in today's economy.

Again, our store is 2 doors down from the public restrooms. I feel no guilt directing folks there, instead of angsting over whether or not to allow them to use our *non-public* restroom. If that makes me a b****? So be it.

ok got it.

it's *your* choice not to let 3 year olds who are going to pee themselves use the restroom. but would your "flexible" manager fire you if you did?

at least you own it. if employees don't let regular customers in an emergency use the bathroom so be it. and those "outraged" customers will shop where they will. if i were their manager i'd fire them for bad customer service and poor judgment.

my issue is excusing the actions of the employees in the OP by saying maybe it was policy, no exceptions, and they were perhaps fearful of being fired. i find it truly hard to believe that any shop like that would fire an employee for allowing a child to pee in their toilet.

as for cavalier- i think it's cavalier that posters have summed up my financial situation and the economy of my area by my willingness to stand up for what i believe is the right thing to do. by that reasoning only wealthy people of independent means could afford the courage of their conviction.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
ok got it.

it's *your* choice not to let 3 year olds who are going to pee themselves use the restroom. but would your "flexible" manager fire you if you did?

at least you own it. if employees don't let regular customers in an emergency use the bathroom so be it. and those "outraged" customers will shop where they will. if i were their manager i'd fire them for bad customer service and poor judgment.

Actually, it IS company policy that our restrooms are not for public use. So I both comply with and enforce that policy. Regardless of the customer.

I have yet to have a customer outraged at being told we do not have a public restroom and being directed to the closest one to our store. Nor have I had any who have refused to continue shopping with us. We're polite in letting them know and in directinb them appropriately.

Would my manager fire me? Probably not the first few times. But I'd get spoken to about it. If I did it often enough - I'd get written up. And ya know... I have a pretty good record at my place. I'd prefer not to mess it up that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
my issue is excusing the actions of the employees in the OP by saying maybe it was policy, no exceptions, and they were perhaps fearful of being fired. i find it truly hard to believe that any shop like that would fire an employee for allowing a child to pee in their toilet.

Again, it IS our company policy. And yes, my pople know that, at the end of the day, termination is a possibility.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
as for cavalier- i think it's cavalier that posters have summed up my financial situation and the economy of my area by my willingness to stand up for what i believe is the right thing to do. by that reasoning only wealthy people of independent means could afford the courage of their conviction.

Sorry, but you are the one who said we could find other jobs and that, basically, we were pussies for not standing against such policies. No, I could not find another job that offers me what I have now. Nor can I afford to risk losing this job over a 3yo's toileting needs. I've known a lot of kids over the years, and not a one has been so desperate while shopping as to have to pee in a gutter. Sorry.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
my issue is excusing the actions of the employees in the OP by saying maybe it was policy, no exceptions, and they were perhaps fearful of being fired. i find it truly hard to believe that any shop like that would fire an employee for allowing a child to pee in their toilet.

Where I worked I was told by the owners that there were absolutely no exceptions. I totally believed that it would have gotten me fired even if it was a child. They fired a pregnant woman for missing one too many days.
I needed the job (money, insurance) so chose to follow the policy while I worked there.

As I stated in my pp to this thread I would definitely complain about the policy with the store owner/management. I would not focus my anger on the employees though for carrying out a policy.


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## clairedevaux78 (May 1, 2008)

I always carry a potty on the go in my car for this reason...and bc a lot of public bathrooms are NASTY!!!!! We still use the potty on the go a good bit, and there are a few times when I have been stuck without it that I really regret it!


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

First: I did not read everything









Something like that happened to me, but I convinced the worker to allow us (my DD when she was like 20 month old and just off nappies) to use the loo. What I feel is: If I (as the employee) am afraid that the customer is a) in danger or b) making a mess - why don´t I just go with them? (not as in actually on the loo, obviously







)

That´s what that lady did, she personally unlocked the door, warned me about the chemicals in the bottles on the floor, I even left the door open for her to see that we were not doing anything disgusting, she checked after us and unlocked the door. Business done. No problem.

I personally and as a ped think that it is a personal injury to deny a little child or any other person in great need a toilet. And it is against human rights. and it is against the first article of the german constitution which is: The dignity of any human is indefeasable.

To let a little child or pregnant woman or whoever wet him/herself is so against this paragraph!


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## StarJune (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i just don't get the playing of devil's advocate every time someone comes on to vent about something. if the employee in the shop from the original post had said "oh no our restroom is broken today!" or just something with some sense of understanding of the urgency of the issue i don't think ann_of_loxley would've been "outraged". the point was the manner and circumstances in which they were told "no".









: I don't understand why someone can't complain about a situation and vent about it without people coming on give every unlikely scenario and reason why they shouldn't be upset







.

OP- I hear ya'. I would be upset too. Once when we were travelling through the States and my daughter who was about your son's age had to go immediately. Of course we had the mandatory rest stops often, but as you know it happens. We are from Canada and were not familiar with the area so we pulled into a large chain hotel and asked for the bathroom. The clerk said that they did not have one







. He proceeded to argue for several minutes that the only bathrooms were in the guest rooms








:. I just walked in the direction where I thought it would be and let her use it. When I came back he was still arguing with my mom about it and a guest in line was complaining about not being served. I was pissed.

I fully intended to write a letter of complaint to headquarters. Now I can't remember if I did







. I had never experienced anything like that in Canada and was so shocked that he would lie and then see a young child in agonizing pain and wanting to go and still refuse. And no, my daughter would never pee out on the street,







.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Oxfam is staffed by volunteers and probably has only one paid member of staff per shop. This isn't an ordinary kind of shop by most standards and the fact that it was started in OXford to try to ease the effects of FAMine in 1942 you would think that some of their shop policies reflect the work for equality and poverty reduction worldwide.

I am going to make a sweeping generalisation here and say that from my experience the people who volunteer at Oxfam shops tend to be in late middle age, middle class, slightly aloof and wouldn't buy the stuff that they sell. Being told by someone such as this that there was no toilet instead of being honest and saying that they are very sorry but the toilet use policy has changed (for example) would have me on the edge of outrage too.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

I think it's really sad we live in a world where people are afraid they will lose their job for letting a 3yo use a washroom. Really? OP, I would've been pissed off too, but I also have no issues letting my kids pee outside if they have to go.







:
I find it interesting to read about the whole "policy" issue. I'm a letter carrier with Canada Post and have relied many times on using non-public washrooms (especially when I was pregnant!), and have never, ever been denied. I wonder why it's okay to let the post man use a bathroom, but not a 3 yo in distress...


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## AndVeeGeeMakes3 (Mar 16, 2007)

While I appreciate every indulgence that any stranger might extend to my child and her needs, I do not expect it. I think there is a sad sense of entitlement that parents often feel about the way that the world must move around our children, as if it is everyone else's obligation to bend rules, turn deaf ears/blind eyes, make exceptions, etc. simply because parents choose to bring their children into places not explicitly intended for them. I became a mother a bit later in life than lots of women, and I spent many years being amazed at the lack of consideration that many parents seem to feel for anyone outside of their little sphere. As a parent, now, I don't buy in to the "seen and not heard" business, but I do try very hard to gage when/where it is appropriate for my daughter to be and, sometimes, I just have to sacrifice my dearest wishes to shop in xyz store.


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## Humnmilk4Humnbabes (Dec 13, 2008)

I just think it's awesome you marched your son outside and had him pee right in front of the store! I would have done the same thing ... people are crazy! It's as though the minute you become an adult, you completely forget what it was like to be a kid.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Triniity* 
First: I did not read everything









Something like that happened to me, but I convinced the worker to allow us (my DD when she was like 20 month old and just off nappies) to use the loo. What I feel is: If I (as the employee) am afraid that the customer is a) in danger or b) making a mess - why don´t I just go with them? (not as in actually on the loo, obviously







)

That´s what that lady did, she personally unlocked the door, warned me about the chemicals in the bottles on the floor, I even left the door open for her to see that we were not doing anything disgusting, she checked after us and unlocked the door. Business done. No problem.

*I personally and as a ped think that it is a personal injury to deny a little child or any other person in great need a toilet. And it is against human rights. and it is against the first article of the german constitution which is: The dignity of any human is indefeasable.

To let a little child or pregnant woman or whoever wet him/herself is so against this paragraph*!

bolding mine- agreed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
Oxfam is staffed by volunteers and probably has only one paid member of staff per shop. This isn't an ordinary kind of shop by most standards and the fact that it was started in OXford to try to ease the effects of FAMine in 1942 you would think that some of their shop policies reflect the work for equality and poverty reduction worldwide.

I am going to make a sweeping generalisation here and say that from my experience the people who volunteer at Oxfam shops tend to be in late middle age, middle class, slightly aloof and wouldn't buy the stuff that they sell. Being told by someone such as this that there was no toilet instead of being honest and saying that they are very sorry but the toilet use policy has changed (for example) would have me on the edge of outrage too.

yup. right on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalkiwendy* 
While I appreciate every indulgence that any stranger might extend to my child and her needs, I do not expect it. I think there is a sad sense of entitlement that parents often feel about the way that the world must move around our children, as if it is everyone else's obligation to bend rules, turn deaf ears/blind eyes, make exceptions, etc. simply because parents choose to bring their children into places not explicitly intended for them. I became a mother a bit later in life than lots of women, and I spent many years being amazed at the lack of consideration that many parents seem to feel for anyone outside of their little sphere. As a parent, now, I don't buy in to the "seen and not heard" business, but I do try very hard to gage when/where it is appropriate for my daughter to be and, sometimes, I just have to sacrifice my dearest wishes to shop in xyz store.

i don't think it's a sense of entitlement (or indulgence) for a 3 year old with an urgent need to pee to expect to use the toilet -a toilet that he used before in a non emergency situation.

i agree with you somewhat. i dislike it when parents bring children into the store i manage and let them roughly touch breakables and climb on the furniture with dirty shoes and basically act like they are at a playground but that merely says to me the parents have bad judgment about how well their children can handle being in that environment. doesn't happen that often so when it does i try to intervene and engage the kids while the mother shops and that seems to work pretty well. otherwise, if they break it, they buy it.







.

that said, i don't think kids need to be isolated simply for being and acting like children. our society has gotten a bit better at integrating children into daily life but it has a long long way to go and i think we would all be better for it.

personally, i think a healthy sense of entitlement is ok. everyone deserves to be treated with compassion and understanding. a sense of entitlement has helped to change a lot of bad "policies" in this world. the ADA, anti discrimination laws and laws protecting the rights of women came about because of a "sense of entitlement". children are the last group to really be taken seriously. most of this world is still _not_ for them.

ftr- i never called anyone a "pussy". i may be an idealist but i'm not a name caller.

i understand that some employees need policies 100% spelled out for them, with all exceptions written down. imo- retail is probably not a good fit for that person.

when you are dealing with the public there are so many variables on a daily basis you cannot expect policy to cover every situation. as a manager i would not feel confident in that type of person's ability to do the job effectively. their precise following of the written policy would not reflect the tone of my leadership (empowering) nor our place of business- a gift/housewares shop.

as an employee of the kind of shop we're talking about -a shop where we'd expect adults with children in tow to come through the door everyday- i would be resentful of an employer who gave me access to cash and keys yet didn't trust me to use my best judgment about when the non-public restroom could be used by a customer. i would think that that employer really didn't really understand that kind of retail nor customer service and i'd move on to find an employer that better understood that.

if i felt like those were the _only_ type of employers/shop owners in my area i'd look into some kind of schooling and i'd get my butt into another kind of profession. i wouldn't be willing to work a retail job, making retail pay, working retail hours, worrying everyday that a situation might come up where if i didn't 100% follow policy i would get fired. unrealistic and not worth it.


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

Sorry, I think you were in the wrong.

You expected to be able to use the 'staff only' area of the shop, in fact barged in and were rude and demanding because your child was inconvenienced.

I'm sure that you must have come across a similar situation many, many times in the recent past as you've being practicing EC and your child has been potty trained for some 18 months now. What do you usually do? Surely not everyone accommodates your child's toileting needs every time??????


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i havent read all the replies.

OP i would be furious at how they handled the whole situation. outright lying. there is no toilet back there. or perhaps they meant - there is no public toilet back there.

anyways there are people who take the law v. v. seriously and cannot bend even a little bit. i have seen that happen day in and day out. for instance i have been asked to leave the bus because i was 5 cents short, yet some have actually waived the fare or allowed me on even though i was 25 cents short.

BUT i would not boycott the store - that does a lot of great work - just because of some employees who just cant 'bend'. and honestly even if you write to oxfam - if i was the manager i would sympathise with you, but i would totally support my employees if the public wasnt allowed to use the restroom.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i don't think it's a sense of entitlement (or indulgence) for a 3 year old with an urgent need to pee to expect to use the toilet -a toilet that he used before in a non emergency situation.

This is how I see it. I don't think Ann was the least bit rude in trying to help her son get to the potty before he peed his pants.

Quote:

personally, i think a healthy sense of entitlement is ok. everyone deserves to be treated with compassion and understanding. a sense of entitlement has helped to change a lot of bad "policies" in this world. the ADA, anti discrimination laws and laws protecting the rights of women came about because of a "sense of entitlement". children are the last group to really be taken seriously. most of this world is still _not_ for them.
Excellent point!









Quote:

i understand that some employees need policies 100% spelled out for them, with all exceptions written down. imo- retail is probably not a good fit for that person.
Makes sense to me.

Quote:

when you are dealing with the public there are so many variables on a daily basis you cannot expect policy to cover every situation. as a manager i would not feel confident in that type of person's ability to do the job effectively. their precise following of the written policy would not reflect the tone of my leadership (empowering) nor our place of business- a gift/housewares shop.

as an employee of the kind of shop we're talking about -a shop where we'd expect adults with children in tow to come through the door everyday- i would be resentful of an employer who gave me access to cash and keys yet didn't trust me to use my best judgment about when the non-public restroom could be used by a customer. i would think that that employer really didn't really understand that kind of retail nor customer service and i'd move on to find an employer that better understood that.
It sounds like you're really wonderful at what you do, and take pride in your work.









Quote:

if i felt like those were the _only_ type of employers/shop owners in my area i'd look into some kind of schooling and i'd get my butt into another kind of profession. i wouldn't be willing to work a retail job, making retail pay, working retail hours, worrying everyday that a situation might come up where if i didn't 100% follow policy i would get fired. unrealistic and not worth it.
Very well said! And, again, it's just really really hard for me to envision a situation where an employee could get fired for giving good customer service.

When I was a lot younger, I had a job as the opening teacher in a daycare center. The kids would bring in cereal from home in a baggie, and the daycare supplied the milk. Well, the manager got concerned that we were going through too much milk, and came in early one day to find me pouring milk into the kids' cereal, and then giving them milk in a cup as well.

A lot of milk was getting wasted, and she got onto me, and made it clear that they could either have milk in their bowl or in a glass -- but not both. So, the next day I follow my new policy, and one little boy with a big appetite was upset at not getting both. So, the next morning his mother tells me he wants both, and I stupidly regurgitate the "policy" and tell her that's what I "have to do" ...

So, that afternoon she talks with the manager, who takes me aside and explains that the customer is always right.







I'm glad she didn't fire me -- I guess she realized I was young and that maybe I'd been intimidated by our conversation the other day.

But now that I've had some time to live and can see the big picture better, I'm thinking that if a manager were going to up and fire someone, it would more likely be someone who stolidly stuck to "policy" and disregared the customer.


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