# Advocacy vs Zealot



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I would like to have an open and honest conversation about being an advocate for something versus being a zealot. Where is the line? If you believe strongly that something is right and true, does that mean everyone else is wrong? Is there a moral obligation to be respectful even to those who disagree with you? If you believe in an overarching concept (like say, breastfeeding) is there room under that umbrella for people to interpret things differently? Does it hurt or help a cause to be unyielding? Can something be right and true for you, but not for everyone else? I really would like input on this, as it is something I am struggling with right now.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Off the top of my head (and without using metaphors or comparisons, which always fall short of the illustration they're meant to convey) I would say that advocacy is about encouragement and education. Zealotry has a component of judgment and is also more about self-righteous, sanctimonious "because I said so" kind of arguments.

Will think more about it, though.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

:


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'll have to look Zealot up in the dictionary first :LOL

I always thought it meant enthusiast. Be right back... :LOL


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*







:










I want your opinion, too. I am really working this out.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

So, the dictionary did not help be so I have no idea :LOL


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

OK, skipping the religious definitions, we have:

zealot

Quote:

n.
1.
1. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
2. A fanatically committed person.
and

Quote:

2: a fervent and even militant proponent of something [syn: partisan, drumbeater]
advocate

Quote:

n. (-kt, -kt)
1. One that argues for a cause; a supporter or defender: an advocate of civil rights.
2. One that pleads in another's behalf; an intercessor: advocates for abused children and spouses.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I think there is a 3rd option, which is Activist, which is what I *try* to be (not always suceeding of course). Many people use activist to mean something encompassing both Advocate and Zealot, but I see it differently.

Something like this:

Advocate says "Well, for me personally A is right and B is wrong. I came to this conclusions after careful research and reflection. Here's some information if you'd like to read it yourself."

Zealot says "A is right and B is wrong. If you B, you must be ignorant or selfish or stupid or cruel or etc."

Activist says "A is right and B is wrong. Why does B exist? Aha! I see a system behind B (usually fueled by profit and/or privilege). How can we work together to tear down that system so that this A/B thing becomes irrelevant?"

Ok, the A/B example is not so useful. But I wanted to keep it abstract so as not to get into a debate about ... whatever...

Also, the right/wrong thing is not 100% working for me... false dichotomy in many situations.. but whatever, it's shorthand.

Am I making any sense?









BTW, I have been accused of zealotry many many times. I'm working on it too.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

I struggle. I tend to be cause oriented and then I get so involved that I take it to extremes and become consumed by it--and yes, I have been a zealot before.

Ferver and passion are great things. Zealousness is when you have to much of those. It can lead to tunnel vision and alienate others.

I think it is part of a cycle. We need some zealots. They help push the envelope. They don't always push it the way I want though...

Advocacy is supporting a cause. It is a tamer version and sometimes not as much fun. I do feel more balanced and happier however when i am advocate. Truthfully I also feel more effective.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

nak~
But off the top of my head, I would say that I personally beleive in absolute truth. Meaning, there are some things that hold true religiously whether we beleive them or not.Some of that carries over into other things in my life, naturally.
But I also beleive in free will in every area of life.I beleive we were all given a free will to do whatever we wanted,make whatever choices,etc.
I think advocacy should be about encouraging someone to be a bit better, to "see the light" kind of thing. But ultimately we can never force them, so why act like they are horrible or whatever if they don't agree?

I think maybe the line is drawn when it comes to our attitude. If I was a zealot in a certain thing-say breastfeeding, which I feel VERY strongly is THE way to nuture a child(also understanding ceratain things may happen beyond a mothers control in SOME cases), then I would probably have no problem tearing someone to shreds to get my point across. That's how I look at it anyway. I see a "zealot" as someone who is not yet mature in love,and getting things across in a peaceful manner. I didn't say never offensive, but more peaceful, respectful of others while trying to educate.
I think it really comes down to attitude. There is a time to strongly voice opinions, and a time to be gentle about it. But we have to set the example, and make others want to follow I think.
And for things we feel very strongly about- I think setting the example, always being truthful about it to those who question it or disagree,but maintaing a good attitude about it all.It is so hard though sometimes.
Still really thinking about your question, but typing with one hand:LOL


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Is there a moral obligation to be respectful even to those who disagree with you?

Yes, I would say so. Why would a person chose to be disrespectful, anyway? There are many respectful ways to disagree, and when we turn to disrespectful words/actions, we end up undermining our cause, whatever it is.

Of course, that begs the question...what is "respectful?" :LOL

One thing that I think is important to keep in mind in activism/advocacy is that we can't force people to think or act differently. The ability to make free choices means that people have a right to look at the same body of information and make different choices. And, of course, people have the right to not even look at the information. It saddens me that people do this, but it's still something that I have to come to accept. (Although that doesn't mean I have to accept it to the point of not trying to do anything about it...I can still try to find new, more persuasive ways of presenting information, or work to change the system so that the context people view information in changes).


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

Hmmmm... Well, i would consider myself an advocate for lots of things but lets take breastfeeding- I have a lot of pamplets and info sheets and Lansinoh samples that I hand out to all clients in their packet. However, I try not to make judgements when clients tell me that they are supplementing, or quit nursing all together. I will try to find out the cause of the problem though, and offer insight as to "myth" vrs. truth... usally they are having difficulties based on common misconceptions and some non-judgemental insight may be all they needed to steer back on track... but sometimes not.

As far as friends and family go- I give the Womanly Art to everyone as a shower gift, and if I hear someone's having difficulty I'll give some info, offer help, etc...- but only if I feel they *want* it, kwim?

To me, a zealot would be in your face about whatever they are passionate about, to the point of turning people off altogether....


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Wow guerillamama, where do i sign up for the fan club! You nailed it while I was writingf. Activist, yeah.


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

I used to be obnoxious to be around (my family was very patient with me) when I first had my children. I was constantly giving stats and reasons why breastfeeding was best and reiterating literature I had read about formula companies and their nasty dealings in third world countries. I was the same way with many other subjects as I became aware of them (Pollution, recycling, etc.)

I find now that I have had those facts in my knowledge for a few years and they are not so fresh and raw for me, that I can share them with others at more appropriate moments and I have learned to not be so overly zealous.

*For me* the difference, no matter how you label it, is that I can learn and understand better when someone presents something to me calmly and patiently.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

:LOL I wanna be in the guerillamama fan club too.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I have stalkers!!! Just what I always wanted!


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Advocate says "Well, for me personally A is right and B is wrong. I came to this conclusions after careful research and reflection. Here's some information if you'd like to read it yourself."

Zealot says "A is right and B is wrong. If you B, you must be ignorant or selfish or stupid or cruel or etc."

Activist says "A is right and B is wrong. Why does B exist? Aha! I see a system behind B (usually fueled by profit and/or privilege). How can we work together to tear down that system so that this A/B thing becomes irrelevant?"

Am I making any sense?







.

YES


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

yup, zealots are righteously indignant and have no clue that they come off condenscending as all get out because of their perceived superiority. i don't miss that.

some of it is just a matter of youth. i remember how righteous i was when i became a veggie at 15. now, sometimes i hear people and i think "yeah that is what i sounded like". :yawn


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

I think advocates encourage and promote from a postive place.

Zealots point fingers and judge from a negative place.

Activists...:LOL Are they the same as conspiracy theorists? No, just teasing. I guess they look to change a system they see as supporting a faulty or false belief system?

Personally, I agree we all have the free will and the freedom to choose in all kinds of ways. I may not agree with those choices, but they are not my choices to make. *I* make my choices and *you* make yours. We each live with the responsilbity and consequences of our choices.

I'm not sure I am making sense.









Life is messy.


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
some of it is just a matter of youth. i remember how righteous i was when i became a veggie at 15. now, sometimes i hear people and i think "yeah that is what i sounded like". :yawn

I can't help chuckling to myself at moments like that









To hear a young person starting to become aware of what's important to them and feel very passionate about it is kinda sweet too.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinybutterfly*
Activists...:LOL Are they the same as conspiracy theorists? No, just teasing. I guess they look to change a system they see as supporting a faulty or false belief system?

Ex:
(BFing is not a politcal cause that I personally invest a ton of energy into, but I think it's one that everyone here has some knowledge about, so I'll use it)
Activist says, there are systems at work here.
1. Formula companies pushing formula down everyone's throat.
2. Western medicine establishment ignorantly doing formula companies' bidding.
3. Sexism, teaching women to hate/distrust their own bodies.
Rather than preaching at FFing moms, better to invest your energy into dismantling those systems.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

I find that tone of voice does a lot. But there are other things related to delivery that are very off-putting.

Here's an example. Someone I know was talking AT someone about sewing cards and other fun preschooler things. I say, "talking at", because she brought it up, was doing all the talking and appeared to enjoy hearing herself talk (i.e. monologue over dialogue). Anyway, in a smug and kind of snide tone of voice, she said, "That's what kids are *supposed* to be doing instead of *reading*..."("reading" said in mocking tone). That chafed me a great deal. First, it was like unsolicited info said in a preachy way. Second, she was not listening or soliciting input, like in a real conversation. Third, her tone of voice was snide and kind of mocking. Fourth, she was making a blanket statement about reading in general. What about kids that read on their own?--It was black and white with no room for exceptions.

Honestly, I could have agreed with her basic info and been following it, but I would have still been offended by her delivery. I haven't met many other people like her. To me, she appears very insecure about her choices and gets validation by putting down the alternatives. I believe in child-led weaning and I may talk happily about breastfeeding my toddler. But I would never say to random people, "That's what toddlers are *supposed* to be doing instead of drinking *formula*.". Sure, I think that. But in saying it in a smug tone and manner like that, I'm not persuading anyone.

What is that saying? You attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I thought of two more questions, then we are off to church
1. When does advocay/activism become zealotry?

2. How does one respond to a zealout (really for lack of a better term- rabid activist? I don't know what to call it)? Do you get engaged> Do you walk away?


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Itlbokay*
I can't help chuckling to myself at moments like that









To hear a young person starting to become aware of what's important to them and feel very passionate about it is kinda sweet too.


It is sweet. And to know that they are looking at you thinking "that old person just doesn't get it". :LOL

Life is messy. I agree tinybutterfly. You make beautiful sense.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I am so late for church.
BUT I love that- life is messy. When you are so in love with a doctrine/theory that there is no room for even the possibility of an exception, that's when you get into trouble (in my humble opinion)


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Ex:
(BFing is not a politcal cause that I personally invest a ton of energy into, but I think it's one that everyone here has some knowledge about, so I'll use it)
Activist says, there are systems at work here.
1. Formula companies pushing formula down everyone's throat.
2. Western medicine establishment ignorantly doing formula companies' bidding.
3. Sexism, teaching women to hate/distrust their own bodies.
Rather than preaching at FFing moms, better to invest your energy into dismantling those systems.


guerillamama, it's a good thing there are folks like you out there with LOTS of energy and smarts!

I guess I always tend to see things from a personal, one person at a time viewpoint...and don't often even think about the big picture.

I will admit it is hard for me to see things in such a large way.
I'm reading though and listening.









This reminds me of the discussion of throwing babies in the river and taking them out one by one, or going upriver to see who is throwing them in there...that was you, too, wasn't it?!?

Thanks for trying to explain this to me.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Thanks, TB.







Yes, that was me. I'm a little zealous about that... :LOL

1. When does advocay/activism become zealotry?

I think at the point where you can't see shades of grey, where you lose sight of the big picture, where you are personally judging people w/o really understanding the context, where you don't care about the context, where you are more concerned with being right than anything else. I think zealotry is a lot about ego and insecurity.

2. How does one respond to a zealout (really for lack of a better term- rabid activist? I don't know what to call it)? Do you get engaged> Do you walk away?

If I disagree with them, I walk away. No point in arguing w/ a zealot.
If I agree with them, but wish they wouldn't be such a zealot about it, I might try to redirect them to looking at the big picture. Or I might walk away.
Like I said, this is somethign I am struggling w/ myself, so walking away is often the best choice for me right now. (MDC excluded, of course! :LOL)


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I think GM put it very well in her post above. I think of an example that fits in my life: vegans. There are personal-life-choice vegans, there are activist, vegans, and there are zealot vegans. Here's the difference that I've noticed:

1. Personal life choice vegans - you wouldn't know they were vegan unless you paid close attention to their choices and/or asked them. They'd be happy to talk about it if you like but don't make a point of doing so unasked.

2. Activist vegans - these people are very open about theiri veganism - they might have some buttons or t-shirts they wear occasionally. They choose to talk about aspects of it from time to time or go out of their way to suggest brands or restaurants where there are vegan options. They write letters applauding companies for catering to vegans, and write letters to politicians and companies about animal issues. They might leave brochures in restaurants or otherwise spread information in a gentle way. They are usually well-informed and often make you think about your diet and lifestyle choices, possibly causing you to make decisions involving animal testing, etc. although you still eat meat. They don't look down on those who aren't vegan.

3. Vegan Zealots - there are the people we call the vegan police. They're the "if you can't do it all, don't bother" people, who look down on other vegans for wearing used leather shoes, or ocassionally lapsing and eating some honey. They get in your face about issues and make you want to eat red meat, and lots of it! People in categories 1 and 2 generally stay away from them and don't even want to talk about vegan issues with them.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

There is one other option in dealing with zealots. There is the possibility of opening their mind to context ... which is not to say, aiming to change their views, since you may not even want to ... you may even agree with their basic argument, but just disagree with the extent of their argument, or the zealotry as being dismissive of degree ... but I always like to think that it's possible to just open their minds to the possibility that it is not as extreme as they insist.

Anything, after all, is possible.

But then again, that usually just gets me in trouble. :LOL


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I think it also depends on how receptive the listener is as to which group the advocate/zealot/activist is deemed to be in.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
OK, skipping the religious definitions, we have:

zealot

and

advocate

Ok, those definitions have very different connotations.

Zealotry would be like, "Breastfeeding is best, and all you formula feeders suck!"

Advocacy would be like, "Breastfeeding is so wonderful, here are the zillion ways how!"

Can you see the difference? With advocacy, there is no judgement of someone who doesn't, but by your enthusiasim for the subject (in this example breastfeeding), others will be moved to think about the issue, and may be swayed. Personally, I think that being so positive is a better way to gain support of your issue. You can catch more flies with honey.









I'm sorry, I had more thoughts, but my dh is watching the game, and I can't think anymore. *sigh*


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
I struggle. I tend to be cause oriented and then I get so involved that I take it to extremes and become consumed by it--and yes, I have been a zealot before.

Ferver and passion are great things. Zealousness is when you have to much of those. It can lead to tunnel vision and alienate others.

I think it is part of a cycle. We need some zealots. They help push the envelope. They don't always push it the way I want though...

Advocacy is supporting a cause. It is a tamer version and sometimes not as much fun. I do feel more balanced and happier however when i am advocate. Truthfully I also feel more effective.

I agree with you. I have to work hard at not being a zealot on some issues. For example, I'm an advocate for breastfeeding and co-sleeping. I'm a zealot about circing (or rather, not circing). I do find that I do get tunnel vision and I do alienate others when it comes to the circ issue. However, I find with that particular issue, there comes a point where advocacy doesn't work, and people still make poor choices (IMO), and then my zealous nature comes out.

Kristi


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Zealots are actually betraying their own cause.
Zealotry is all about ego. It is about being in love with one's own "rightness.." and it is putting one's ego and rightness ahead of the cause.
If you are turning people off and running them out of the dialogue... you are serving your ego, not your cause.

It is pretty easy to spot a zealot.

And I personally just put them on literal or metaphorical "ignore."

And when I start showing signs of zealotry myself, I ask myself who or what I am trying to serve with my words. That usually pulls me back.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Ok, yesterday was dd's sixth birthday and my mother got her a wretched doll with a bottle permanantly attached to dollhand. She knew I wouldn't approve and I didn't. I tried to explain why I didn't want her to have the doll but my mother was dismissive thinking me silly. She went on to say, "what about the poor mothers who can't nurse?" To which I said, "That's why they invented bottles but giving bottles when you can breastfeed is like giving insulin to a woman who has a functional pancreas(sp)" She was dismissive My main point was that people associated bottles with babies making bottles an icon of babyhood giving the children the message that they will grow up and give their babies bottles. She was dismissive and thought I was silly but I told her if I was silly why did people spend so much money on advertisments. She said why did I breastfeed and I answered "because I did a lot of reading and discovered that it was best." Then it got into a discussion of how more educated women breastfed and I started to wonder whether it was "better" for "better" people to breastfeed and just quietly sit in smug superiority and allow the "poor" and "ignorant" people simply succumb to the allure of the bottlefeeding industry. Those people with the IQ points shaved off would fill the service industry jobs serving their "betters."

So, I guess I'm a zealot.

Debra Baker


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

good point asherah.

the circumcision thing--i could be a zealot about it so easily. it is there inside of me to be that zealot. but i also have free will, empathy and compassion, so i CHOOSE not to be that person.

that whole rightness thing. people get so attached to that and it closes down discussion.

i'm not the master of the universe. i ceeded all rights to that long ago. i don't know the big picture.

so, i will work to change things i don't like. i won't be passive, but i won't be consumed by ego either.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
So, I guess I'm a zealot.

Debra Baker

I don;t think you're a zealot for that- I think you were just talking to someone who was bound not to listen.

I'm still processing all this, but will chime in soon.

You ladies are awesome, and intelligent to boot!


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## slinginhipmama (Feb 15, 2005)

wolfmama said:


> I struggle. I tend to be cause oriented and then I get so involved that I take it to extremes and become consumed by it--and yes, I have been a zealot before.
> 
> I too have the same problem!!


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