# Another sucky relatives vent



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

My family thinks that Simon -- who is 13 months old -- is a form of entertainment. He is indeed very entertaining, but they seem to think that this is his JOB. They will tell him to dance -- not *ask* if he wants to dance -- and try to get him to do tricks. Grandma is forever trying to get him to wave at her. She tells him to wave and tries to grab his arm to force him to wave. I intervene and tell her that he can wave, but doesn't feel like it right now. I guess that's better than last month, she wanted to try to pry his mouth open -- with her filthy smoker's hands -- to see his new teeth. I intervened in this case too! Usually the infractions are minor and I don't say anything. But there are sooo many of them. Every freggin' minute it seems they say or do something inappropriate. Lately they have been telling Simon to say this and say that. "That is Abby. Can you say Abby? Abby. Say Abby." "What do you say? Say thank-you." OMG. This is a minor example, but it bothers me. Simon has a mind of his own! We don't tell him what to say or what to do.

My dad is forever trying to teach things to Simon and does so in a patronizing, annoying way. He has a domination complex. He loves to be in control (or to think he is) and to think of himself as authoritative. Overall though he is o.k. with Simon. My mom is much worse; she is socially horrid. E.g., dh doesn't like a lot of spaghetti sauce. She saw what he was eating and kept telling him to get more sauce and that the amount he had was "pathetic." She used that word about 5 times! She tends to say the rudest things in a light tone as if that makes it o.k..

My family already feels like everything is taboo -- we're vegan, don't give them any oh so precious "alone time" with Simon (and don't plan on it anytime this decade), pretty much avoid sex-stereotyped clothing, haven't vaxed at all yet and are not sure if we will, and on and on -- and I think they are really bothered by this so I don't want to add to their frustrations. Sigh. We're hoping to move across the country in October or so! That should help!

If I didn't think a lot about how I'm parenting and have such high standards, things would be so much better with them, but yet much worse for Simon. There is so much strain and awkwardness with my parents and grandma. I hate it. Of course they think that we disapprove of so many things they have done and continue to do -- and we do. I'm actually disgusted by how I was parented (having Simon makes me think of it; hopefully I'll think of it less in years to come) and cannot believe how unaffectionate and distant my parents are or how extremely little thought they gave to parenting. I often feel like I have little but my blood in common with them.

I really don't dwell on this. I've accepted that my family wins no prizes. It's hard on me to know that they are upset and p'd off about my choices and beliefs. I could try harder to improve things with them, but I have such little respect for them that I can't be bothered to put in the effort. I am planning to write a letter outlining our basic beliefs and our expectations when we move. I think it will be easier to discuss when we are at more of a distance, and they can take plenty of time to absorb it and respond before it is time for them to be with Simon again. For now, they tend to see him for short periods of time and not too frequently. When we move we'll have to contend with 1 to 2 week visits 2 or so times each year, in which case I would be less tolerant of some of the behaviour I currently let slide.

Thanks for listening to my rambling vent! It really helps me to get this out. Once it's out I can go on with my day. Really, this stuff doesn't fester in me. I can let it go. I just need to spend some time digesting it now and then.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think we were separated at birth.

Wow....it is eerie...

I could have written your post, word for word...WORD...for WORD....

except that I am still pregnant (37 weeks)...but believe me, SO many issues have already come up..I have just been trying to lay down the "law" so to speak before she is born so there will be no suprises if I need to remove her from their lives...
sounds harsh I know, but I tend to get defensive when people like my mother say she is going to baptize my daughter in the kitchen sink because we don't believe in infant baptism and "what if she dies she will go to hell"...

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to hijack! I am right there with you...

I am telling you, word for word...

You're not alone...just remember that you are doing the BEST for your child...it is still upsetting though...I hear ya....


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I like my family and they didn't get "alone time" with my children when they were that young.

I don't get the "say abby" thing myself I see this all the time, children doing parlor tricks for the adults.

Creepy in my book but common.

db


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

_"Hi this is a post from the year 2030. My name is Simon and my mother is driving me and DW crazy. She is always harping on us because we vax our son. And the fact that we eat meat...don't even get her started on that one.

Moreover, she is always buying him these little outfits that are way too feminine. She dressed me like that and I hated it! Didn't she know that I was a boy! I would keep my ds from her altoghether but felt really bad growing up because she seldom let me have "alone time" with my grandparents when I was little. DW used to have lots of time with her grandparents when she was really little and really bonded with them because of that. I think my parents refusal to let me do this hurt our bond.

My grandparents were not perfect but I loved them. I know mom thought grandma's jokes were bad, but I really got her sense of humor (once my mom gave me ice cream and grandma was like "that's a pathetic amount of ice cream for a growing child!" Mom didn't think that was funny at all....but I did). And my parents just overthought the whole parenting thing. I mean people have been doing it for millions of years but mom seems to think that we need to get some kind of PhD in childrearing"_

Ok I am not trying in any way to say your choices are wrong or that you should in any way change them. Your ds may in fact grow up agreeing with them all and thinking you made wonderful choices, BUT.......... maybe not. When we grow up we sometimes see things in a way that shocks our parents.

All I am saying is that your parents don't sound that horrible and you might want to cut them a little slack.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I kinda agree with Maya a bit on this one..for slightly different reasons.

I can TOTALLY see why their behaviour infuriates you now. BUT they are his grandparents, not his parents. They are not around 24/7- I think it's ok for your kid to see that some people act differently than others. Who doesn't have a relative they roll their eyes about? And who says your son will. He'll probably adore them, because it sounds as though they love him to pieces!!!
Why send a letter to them when you move? Think about that. I'm sure they are going to be devastated that you are moving in the first place, then you're going to send them a letter trashing their personalities, and letting them know how much of a better parent you are? I can't see that benefiting anyone. Especially Simon.
Both of my parents are dead. I'm sure they'd be somewhat annoying as grandparents too, but you know what- I'd give anything to have my mothers smoke smelling fingers poking into my kids mouths to see thier new teeth! And I'm sure my kids would delight in having them around.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I can totally relate to the OP...I mean, annoying is one thing...will it be annoying to me when my mom tells my 2 year old (who I will most likely be still bf'ing) that she is too old for that? Surrrrrrrree...

...but I draw the line at someone wanting to baptize my daughter in the kitchen sink because they feel that she will go to hell if she happens to pass away...that to me crosses the line of annoying...

Yes, people are different, but rude is rude and someone saying that someone else's choices...and by extention them, are pathetic, is not cool in my opinion...

I feel for the OP...I do love my parents too, a lot, and really want them to have a relationship with my daughter and will completely be all for that...but there are a few "ground rules" so to speak, and I expect them to be respected...


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Here's just what you want, unsolicited advice from a complete stranger, but who knows, maybe it'll help. You and I (and millions of others) have a lot in common. We were raised by a generation of parents who pretty much just got pregnant, had the babies, then just got through the day as best they could. My mother thinks it's funny to admit that each of her children is a different form of failed birth control. My siblings and I all spent our first years in playpens and were taught to behave or else. I have no memories of being read to, played with, or doted on. When I look through the window of my childhood, I see nothing I wish to recreate for my son. As a result, my parenting style is a direct reaction to how my mother raised me.

I'm sure when my parents and in-laws watch me interact with my son, they cringe as much as I do when I think about how they raised their kids. It's hard to witness something that's so opposed to what we think is right, because if THAT is right, then I must be wrong. You have to admit that your lifestyle and parenting style is extreme (vegan, no vaccinations, etc.), and to them, it's weird.

So instead of focusing on your irreconcilable differences, try to focus on what you share: a love for Simon. Cutting them some slack will only serve to make you all happier in the end, especially Simon.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Yikes. I only wanted to vent...

The letter I have in mind to write is absolutely not an attack on them. It won't say anything about them. It will just outline our parenting choices and the rationale behind them. It will be a this is what we have chosen to do and why, it's working wonderfully for us. We hope the people he loves will follow the same general style of treatment as we feel this is in his best interests. If I were to give any examples, I would use other people so that they didn't feel like they were being attacked.

I am not a harper at all. I don't harp on anyone about what they do re: vaxes, meat eating, or anything else.

The people I'm talking about show very little respect for others. They are fairly painful to be around. I have no relationship with them. We've only ever had small talk. They do not know how to build a healthy relationship at all, so I will be amazed if they manage to do this with Simon. I was hoping that things would be different, but they aren't. My dad shows a lot of love for Simon, but my mom is truly indifferent to him 99.5% of the time. She has never wanted to just snuggle with him. She has never played with him -- she just sits back and tells him to entertain her.

About cutting them slack. I do cut them a lot of slack. I would welcome them to be a larger part of Simon's life, but they don't make the effort to do that. They aren't the worst people in the universe by any stretch, but they have issues and I will not let Simon spend a lot of time with my mom or paternal grandmother because of their sarcasm, negativity, lack of respect for others, and on and on. It would take nothing short of a miracle for those two to change. My mom barely knows his name. She calls him "the baby", that is when she isn't accidentally calling him Abby (her dog's name).

I feel attacked. I just wanted to vent. I just gave the most recent examples, there are worse ones. At Simon's birthday we didn't buy him the "right" balloon. My mom asked why we didn't have one with a 1 on it, and then said "What's wrong with you?" What does Simon get out of this? Being in the midst of such tension and disrespectful rudeness is not a good thing.

I was venting because it is so very freggin' frustrating to have to sit and give them slack when they are saying or doing something that I disagree with for ethical reasons -- because I think it is disrespectful to Simon -- every minute. That is as much slack as I can handle. It's probably too much slack b/c letting things go makes me want to spend less and less time with them.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Hey mama - I totally get where you're coming from! You have every right to vent - and this should be a safe space for that, right?

Honestly, your parents would drive me batty. It sounds like they are really disrespectful of your son - and you and your DH for that matter. I wouldn't want to spend much (if any!) time with them, and I'm sure you feel relieved that you're moving away. I don't really think it's your job to "cut your parents some slack" when they are disrespecting you and your son. I think it's our job to show our children respectful behavior, and it's really hard to do when we're surrounded by people who do not do that.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I feel attacked. I just wanted to vent. I just gave the most recent examples, there are worse ones. At Simon's birthday we didn't buy him the "right" balloon. My mom asked why we didn't have one with a 1 on it, and then said "What's wrong with you?" What does Simon get out of this? Being in the midst of such tension and disrespectful rudeness is not a good thing.

I was venting because it is so very freggin' frustrating to have to sit and give them slack when they are saying or doing something that I disagree with for ethical reasons -- because I think it is disrespectful to Simon -- every minute. That is as much slack as I can handle. It's probably too much slack b/c letting things go makes me want to spend less and less time with them.

First of all--the infamous cyber hug:









Second: my mom, who is in MANY ways a WONDERFUL grandmother (which has been one of the great surprises of my motherhood), did that thing of putting words into the pre-verbal baby's mouth. OH MY GOSH I was going to MURDERIZE her. She would say, "Now you say 'Mommy I'm done eating.'" Aarggh! She said it would teach him to talk. She told my father, when he came on a visit without her, to do it too!

Unbefrigginglievable.

She also did that horrible thing of turning to the baby and saying "Why is your mommy doing thus and so?" She did that exactly once, because I quietly but thoroughly bit her head clean off.

I don't know if these things are actually bad for the baby or damaging to _his_ relationship to the grandparents. If they really love him, he will get that and love them back. But they are damaging to YOU and I have to say, that's enough! I can't even believe that stupid balloon comment--the wrong balloon, good grief! You really don't have to make the case for them being bad for him, yet. Though I think you are right that this is a slippery slope, that lack of respect for a pre-verbal baby is a good indicator of lack of respect for the older child. (I don't think calling the baby by the dog's name is a bad sign, though, because I'm sure she loves her dog!







)

I don't recommend your letter idea. I doubt it will work. I recommend the quick and calm repetition of key phrases when you see them, phrases like "this works for us" or even "well, I'm his mom, so what I say goes." They already realize that you are trying to do things differently. I think it might be helpful for you to write the letter, but don't send it. If they can't be pleasant to you when you are there with the beautiful little baby, they won't be nicer to you when the lure and the anodyne of the baby's presence is gone. You know?


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I was venting because it is so very freggin' frustrating to have to sit and give them slack when they are saying or doing something that I disagree with for ethical reasons -- because I think it is disrespectful to Simon -- every minute.


Who says you have to "sit and give them slack"? If something they say upsets you, you can respond. You can choose how to respond, what to say and how to say it.

I would be annoyed if S's grandparents asked her to "perform" for them. And I would say so. I would also be annoyed if someone told me I bought the "wrong" balloon for her birthday. I would probably just look at them funny, though, because who really cares???

What these people say and do has little to do with you or with Simon and everything to do with THEM. If they are negative, sarcastic, sad people, then they are not going to be very nice no matter who you are or how you parent your child. You can't change them.

I am sure writing a letter would make you feel better but I would agree that it should not be sent. if they don't care enough to remember your son's name, they are not going to care all that much about your parenting choices, yk?


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I have to respond really quickly... trying to work while Simon naps.

Thanks for the hugs.









I'll rethink the letter. It would probably be a waste of time. It wouldn't be helpful for me as I already have a clear idea of what we're doing and why.

Re: letting it slide vs. telling them that they are doing things wrongly... I would be correcting them every few minutes. I will try to say more though as that will cut back on certain behaviours.

About whether telling a pre-verbal (or verbal) child what to say: I've read that this is harmful to the child. Makes the child self-conscious and feel like a failure if they are unable to say what they're asked to say. Makes them feel like they have to perform; makes them feel like they need others to tell them how to behave appropriately. Not good!

Gotta go!

Thanks for the additional insights!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Dal, right there with ya!

I don't think you have to cut anyone slack who disrespects you son. And if they do something after you specifically explain not to - all bets are off!

And why don't some of you mamas cut Dal some slack? Geez!

GL, and know that lots of us are wading through the same issues!!


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

You know, my Mother in law is always putting words in my boy's mouth, and it flies all over me. But to be honest, I never really gave any thought to how it may affect him, I just know it irritates the crap out of me! I figure she knows good and well he isn't going to attempt to say what she's feeding him, so it can only be a not-so-subtle message to me: "Mama, my feets are shreezing. I need some socks." (This when it's 68 degrees.) "Shave me mama." (This means his chin needs a spoon-scrape because I can't get the food in neatly enough.) Stuff like that. Oy . . . .


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

For a while I was very tense and defensive with my mom's constant "advice." Her's was very specific and critical. She would call and ask me what I was doing with the baby, and then dissect it.

So I started being a smart ass. At first it was defensive. She would call and say "did you dress the baby warmly today? what did he have on?" and I would respond "oh, he wore a diaper and a onesie" (when it was 32 degrees).
When she would nag and say "are you working on his motor skills? you know you need to do 15 minutes of tummy time three times a day. Are you doing tummy time? You know if you don't, he will not develop properly" and I would reply "nah, today we just sat on the couch and drank beer and watched porn"

*I* was the one who had something to learn. I had to learn to disengage myself from the old patterns with my mom (her criticizing, me defending and proving myself). She liked to keep me hopping with evaluating my choices. As an adult, I had to STOP letting her push my buttons, I had to bow out of that dynamic. And it worked!!! Now I think it is hilarious when she asks me irritating or insulting questions, cause I laugh and say something silly. Here is the weird thing, now that I laugh, she laughs with me! Rather than fight and her dig in defensively, she just laughs at what she has just asked and most of the time says "oh, sorry, you know that!" It was my ah-ha moment. Now I respond like an adult or equal and not like a defensive teenager.

Back in my meticulous, point by point defensive letter writing days with my mom, I never had this kind of success. I am telling you, disengage from the dynamic and try something that will surprise them. At least it helps break those old patterns that repeat over and over.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*
When she would nag and say "are you working on his motor skills? you know you need to do 15 minutes of tummy time three times a day. Are you doing tummy time? You know if you don't, he will not develop properly" and I would reply "nah, today we just sat on the couch and drank beer and watched porn"
.






























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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am sorry ou felt attacked Dal, I was right there with you!!

I could have written your post!!

I can't speak for anyone else, only for myself. With my mother and in-laws, I take the "choose your battles" approach. Of course I am not willing to cut someone out of my child's life or make a huge scene or cause years of resentment if they say something like "you are still breastfeeding?????" or "every kid needs a good spanking once in a while!" or something equally as ignorant or sometimes enraging....

for US though, and I only speak for my family...it crosses the line when "are you still breastfeeding" turns into the ACTION of either shaming my child for breastfeeding (provided the child is old enough to understand) or feeding them something DESPITE knowing better (i.e. we are vegan, feeding them meat for instance) ......or similarly, anyone is allowed their own personal take on discipline (no matter how much I disagree)...but the line is crossed when someone actually takes an ACTION with my child and spanks them or something---

Then it doesn't matter if you're my mother or the pope... you won't be seeing my child for a while...

I don't know if this is how Dal feels or if she was just venting or what, but that is how I feel and I don't feel guilty about it one bit. People should, and need to respect my parenting choices...and if they don't agree, that is cool--but when they begin taking actions with our child, that is where the line is seriously crossed....

Take care everyone!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*
So I started being a smart ass. At first it was defensive. She would call and say "did you dress the baby warmly today? what did he have on?" and I would respond "oh, he wore a diaper and a onesie" (when it was 32 degrees).
When she would nag and say "are you working on his motor skills? you know you need to do 15 minutes of tummy time three times a day. Are you doing tummy time? You know if you don't, he will not develop properly" and I would reply "nah, today we just sat on the couch and drank beer and watched porn"

.

Aaahhh..........a woman after my own heart!!! :LOL


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Thanks for the additional responses!

Kincaid ... what great points you have made!!! I do need to bow out of the current dynamic in order to change it! I'll try that tomorrow at dinner!!! I'm sure Grandma will say something annoying and inappropriate.

I like the idea of using that strategy with my dad too, but he doesn't really offer advice (at least not usually) or set the stage for a light response. He's just always saying the wrong things, and comes off as disrespectful. Tonight we were visiting for about 10 minutes. In this time he:

* called Simon a good boy (GAG)
* kept telling him what to do (e.g., Simon, bring me that green towel)
* when Simon left the room he called after him, "Siiiiiiiimon. Where are you going?" (in a "where do you think you are going?" type of tone that sounds light but is in a disciplinarian type tone -- kwim? -- and as though Simon needs permission to leave the room, and as though doing so was somehow wrong)
* he was showing Simon how to activate a singing bear and tried to force Simon to push the button. We show Simon how to do things and it is up to him to try to do them or not. Simon was freaked out by my dad trying to force him to push the button and ran to me.
* spoke in a condescending and sometimes mean tone to his dog. This makes me very uncomfortable. If I were to ever leave Simon with my dad, I'm sure he'd treat him just like he treats his dog. I won't be doing that.
* totally o/t, but told me about how good the spare ribs he made in his slow cooker were. We're vegan. We don't want to hear about this. I'm not going to drool over it or think it's a good idea.
* Simon bumped his head very lightly and had a concerned look on his face. My Dad (In a light tone): "Oh! You weren't hurt badly! That didn't hurt!" It is up for Simon to know how badly or if he is hurt. If he is upset or wound up about something else and is letting a minor bump act as a trigger to get his frustrations out, that's just fine. I don't need my dad telling him he's not *really* hurt or that he has no need to cry.
* Simon was banging a can against a glass coffee table. My Dad took it upon himself to punish Simon. He took the can away and said: "Now you can't have that anymore because you weren't being careful" or something of the sort. Simon didn't care. I would just have asked Simon for the can and said thank-you when he handed it to me. If he wouldn't hand it to me, I would have redirected him. What my dad did here wasn't horrible, and it's hard to convey how it was un-GD b/c so much of it has to do with tone. In the future I'll intervene right away in similar situations. I wasn't expecting my dad to act as he did and thought he'd just ask Simon for the can.
* Told Simon what to say.
* Simon likes to put his hand to his ear and pretend it's a phone. My dad said: "You need to get a phone." Here's another example that can't really come through here. It's all about tone, I guess. His message was that what Simon was doing was wrong; he should have a phone in order to be playing phone.
* My dad is forever trying to teach Simon a lesson. This "you need to learn so much and you need me to teach it to you" way of interacting is not actually conducive to learning. It sets up an uncomfortable power dynamic, and just plain discomfort when he's eager to teach Simon something and Simon isn't the least bit interested in learning it. He means well...

It was a good visit. I didn't leave feeling annoyed, but at the same time it's a bit disheartening. How do others deal with others who aren't GD and who just spiel off typical responses to children? Do you just let this type of annoying and inappropriate comment slide, even though they happen every minute? Do you try to educate the offending party about being GD and hope that they'll follow along -- or ask/expect them to follow along?

ETA: It just occured to me. A major thing that bothers me is my dad's entire demeanor when it comes to Simon. He treats Simon completely differerently than he does anyone else, except for his dog.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

The dog thing. I think how people treat their dogs is a good reflection of their private lives.

Just my opinion.

db


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

No matter what one's standards or parenting type.... I just cannot stand it when grandparents think they have some SAY in the child's life. Why can't they realize grandparenting is a privilege, not a RIGHT! Grrrr. I feel your pain.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

db, very interesting thought there. I should spend some time looking up theories about how people treat dogs and what it says about them.

OneCatholicMommy, I hear ya! Not too long ago, my dad asked me "Do I need to harass you again about the vax situation?" I responded: "NO. You don't need to HARASS me about anything. We are taking care of that" and walked away. A few days later he confronted me about it saying that he was "beyond pissed off" about many of the things that we do and feel that he has a right to discuss vaxes with us. The reason I haven't given my parents a very thorough response to why we aren't vaxing so far (we may do some when he's 3 or so) is b/c they approach it as an attempt to change our minds and they aren't really listening to what we say. In other words, it just isn't up for debate. On top of that they haven't done any research on it at all. At one point my dad said that he didn't appreciate me acting like it wasn't any of his business. I was really irritated at the time and said that it isn't, that we all want what is best for Simon, and that we are doing what we feel is best. This really upset him, and his only mode of showing that he's upset is getting angry. He's a control freak and is not at all happy that he has no control in how SImon is being raised or whether/when he's vaxed. So the conversation further deteriorated. He thinks that because he loves and cares about Simon he does (or at least should) have some kind of say in how Simon is raised. Nope. If he seems to have a good point about something I'll listen, but he's one of the last places I'd go to for parenting advice. I do feel bad that I can't just have a decent conversation with him and explain our stance on this. I just feel very attacked and uncomfortable talking with him. Well that's quite o/t.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I HATE when people try to get kids to perform as if they were circus animals! I hate it almost as much as I hate when people try to "make" my kids kiss them. "Give me a kiss" over and over even when the child obviously doesn't want to.

I understand what you're talking about and dh and I have similar issues with both sides of our family. There seems to be no respect for different points of view. My in laws are the worst in this. They not only do almost all the same things you described in your posts, but also like to favor and label the kids. ie: one of the girls is "smarter" (whatever THAT means) one is prettier, etc. My father in law never even bothered to visit our middle daughter in the hospital, but viewed her picture on the internet nursery and then called me to tell me she wasn't as "pretty" as baby #1. Kacie had a cone shaped head due to being stuck in the birth canal. I responded, "How the hell would you know, you haven't even seen her yet."

They also LOVE to threaten children and will say things like "I'm going to beat your @$$" I have made it abundently clear that they will never touch one of my children. THeir lack of parenting skills has resulted in my handsome, smart, funny husband having very little self confidence. He doesn't think he's smart because his sister was the "smart one" Luckily they live in another state and show little interest in our kids. DH feels bad about this, but I don't!

When family members comment on our parenting choices, I usually try to ignore it or change the subject.


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## maybelle (Jan 27, 2005)

I had a flash of insight reading about the whole vax "debate" you had with your father. That sounds like another good place to disengage. He obviously isn't open to learning about this. End of discussion. Walk away.

I am reading Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting" in which he talks about just disengaging from any Me-Me-Me Baby-self behavior, whether from child or adult. Engaging him, or anyone else, in these arguments about any of your decisions (and they are YOUR decisions) just reinforces their behavior. And gets you upset.

I don't have practical experience with using this on alleged grown-ups, just started using it with DS (so far, so good!). Just wanted to share what flashed in my mind as I read your post.


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## tinawoman (Feb 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*
So I started being a smart ass. At first it was defensive. She would call and say "did you dress the baby warmly today? what did he have on?" and I would respond "oh, he wore a diaper and a onesie" (when it was 32 degrees). When she would nag and say "are you working on his motor skills? you know you need to do 15 minutes of tummy time three times a day. Are you doing tummy time? You know if you don't, he will not develop properly" and I would reply "nah, today we just sat on the couch and drank beer and watched porn"

oh my god this is hilarious!! i SO have to try this! my parents drive me nuts sometimes....although its nothing to do with my dd, its just the constant judgement of ME and my way of living my life...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kincaid*
*I* was the one who had something to learn. I had to learn to disengage myself from the old patterns with my mom (her criticizing, me defending and proving myself). She liked to keep me hopping with evaluating my choices. As an adult, I had to STOP letting her push my buttons, I had to bow out of that dynamic. And it worked!!! ...Now I respond like an adult or equal and not like a defensive teenager.

Back in my meticulous, point by point defensive letter writing days with my mom, I never had this kind of success. I am telling you, disengage from the dynamic and try something that will surprise them. At least it helps break those old patterns that repeat over and over.

what you say is so true that i can respond as an equal and not like a defensive teenager....oh goodness, you really opened my eyes. i'm so tired of being defensive about how my house is, how my yard is, for god's sake, i'm a stay at home mama of a 4.5yrs old that's nearly 34wks preggo and runs a couple of online businesses! yes, my house is a mess! get over it! but now what you say makes a lot of sense to me...instead of always being pissy and defensive with them i can try to make light of it...i don't have to let them upset me...thanks for this!!


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
About whether telling a pre-verbal (or verbal) child what to say: I've read that this is harmful to the child. Makes the child self-conscious and feel like a failure if they are unable to say what they're asked to say. Makes them feel like they have to perform; makes them feel like they need others to tell them how to behave appropriately. Not good!

This may be way OT (should I make this a new thread?), but could you expand, Dal, on what you mean by this? I've heard mothers say to their pre-verbal children stuff like: "You look angry. Instead of hitting, say 'I'm angry. I want that cookie.'" I just assumed that this was a great way to model to a child what to do when they are angry. But I'm really interested in what you've read.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Thanks for the continued responses! I'm too tired to respond to all of them, but I'll try to answer your question, HoneyBunnyMummy. I can't remember where I read that. Eeek. The examples you've given don't sound bad, but still aren't the way I'd go about it. I do model appropriate things for Simon to say. So, e.g., when someone is leaving I say "bye" to them. I usually say it extra times and in a parentese tone to model what I'm doing to Simon. What I do not say is, "Say bye bye." I find that most parents do this, and do it numerous times in a row (because the child doesn't do as told) -- perhaps they are a bit embarassed that their child is not using proper manners? In any case, I know that Simon will learn how to say goodbye to people when he is ready. I feel that pressuring him or putting him on the spot will not help matters along.

Similar situations: telling a child to say thank-you. That strikes me as a bit obnoxious. I would not appreciate being told this. He will learn this from modelling. If a situation occurs in which he offends someone by not saying thank-you, I can discuss this with him, perhaps after the fact. I don't want to embarass him.

The situation you've described doesn't sound problematic to me. It is different than the cases I had in mind -- e.g., trying to teach a child language by saying "Dog. Abby is a dog. Can you say dog? Dog. Say dog Simon. Dog..." Or, whenever the child is handed something, the parent or whoever says "What do you say? Say thank-you!"

Even though the situation you describe doesn't strike me as particularly problematic, I think I'd prefer to avoid it. (I have some time to think this over though... I haven't given situations like that much thought... so I may change my mind!) Here's how I think I'd respond: If it were appropriate for the child in question, (I don't have much experience with older toddlers and young children), I would encourage the child to come up with her own words. Since his infancy I have been describing Simon's emotions to him so that he will be able to do this when he is ready. Rather than have him parrot back to me what I tell him, I think I would tell him that hitting hurts, please don't hit, rather than hit you can use words to express your feelings. Perhaps we'd do some role-playing games or the like to get this mode of communicating across.

On second thought, I don't know if I'd even tell Simon to use words. I might just wait until he does this on his own. If he hit me, I'd tell him that hitting hurts, that he's very angry because he wants a cookie and can't have one (or whatever), and that it's hard to not get things that we want and that sometimes I get angry when that happens too. If I thought him stating his emotions was an improvement over this, I'd model it by doing it. E.g., if I stubbed my toe, I could say, "Ow! I'm very sad because I hurt my toe." After preventing him from hitting, I'd say "You're very angry! You want a cookie!" If he is already upset enough for this to turn into a mini ordeal, being told what to say isn't likely to make him feel better. Having someone clearly understand what he's going through and emphasize might be a better way for him to learn how to control himself in the future. I guess it depends on the child. Perhaps some children don't feel stupid being told what to say. I need to give more thought to this.

Well... how about making it a suggestion rather than a dictate? That helps me feel better about it. How about something like this instead: Simon, it isn't o.k. to hit when you are angry. Let's think of other things you can do. Do you have any ideas? You could growl like a bear and stomp your feet. Blah blah blah. Hopefully he'd come up with some ideas of his own, and I could suggest that one approach he could use is to say: "I'm so angry right now. I really want a cookie." (I know some approaches encourage children to yell. So far this doesn't seem like a good idea to me as I don't want Simon yelling in anger. An exception would be something like a grrrrr noise.) So far I like this approach the best of the ones I've ranted off. It helps him come up with a variety of potential responses and choose the one that feels right to him given the circumstance. If he hit again in the future, I could remind him of the ideas we discussed.

Hey... it would be easy to make books about this. I'm so angry!!! My mom won't let me have a cookie. I really, really, really want a cookie. I'm so angry I feel like hitting my mom! But... hitting hurts, so I won't hit her. What can I do instead? I can stomp my feet. Stomp stomp stomp. I can hit a pillow. Smack smack smack. I can growl like a bear. Grrrrrrrr. I can tell the world: "I'm AAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY!" I can run in circles. Run run run. I can dance and sing. La la la! Hey, this really works. I'm not so angry anymore!

I hope that helps you see where I was coming from. I'm tired though and your counter-example wasn't one I'd given much thought to!


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## HunnyBunnyMummy (Apr 23, 2005)

Thanks Dal _so_ much! You've given me a lot to think about now. I confess that even though my dd is only 5 months, I've been saying: "Say bye-bye."







: Glad to get a chance to catch that now!

ETA: Love the idea of the book! I think I'll make one of those. (Or you could and I'll be your first buyer!







)


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

but I tend to get defensive when people like my mother say she is going to baptize my daughter in the kitchen sink because we don't believe in infant baptism and "what if she dies she will go to hell"...
Had to comment on this. My first born died 14 hours after coming home form the hospital. We do not baptize either, have decided to allow our children to make the decision for themselves. My grandmother told my mother it was too bad we would never get to see Sierra again since she wasn't baptized she wouldn't be in heaven. What kind of asinine shit is that? she was a 2 1/2 day old baby killed by a vaccine that we as her parents didn't know we could refuse because the big old government said vaccines are "required" Now someone is goign to sit and say too bad your kid has to go to hell now also.


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## AnnasMominPA (Jan 13, 2005)

Actually there are a couple books similar to what you are describing by Karen Katz. One if the books is "No Hitting" and the other is "No Biting! ". I like that they give positive ideas for behavior that is usually consider negative.

My DD who is 3 also likes "I Can Share" by the same author.

These are lift a flap books. For example You can't bite your brother but you can bite (then you lift the flap) an apple.

Angela


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinawoman*
oh my god this is hilarious!! i SO have to try this! my parents drive me nuts sometimes....although its nothing to do with my dd, its just the constant judgement of ME and my way of living my life...

what you say is so true that i can respond as an equal and not like a defensive teenager....oh goodness, you really opened my eyes. i'm so tired of being defensive about how my house is, how my yard is, for god's sake, i'm a stay at home mama of a 4.5yrs old that's nearly 34wks preggo and runs a couple of online businesses! yes, my house is a mess! get over it! but now what you say makes a lot of sense to me...instead of always being pissy and defensive with them i can try to make light of it...i don't have to let them upset me...thanks for this!!

It cracks me up that this works so well. I used to do frantic research on-line so I could have ammo to defend my choices against my mom. Now, I just throw it back at her. If she fusses about your house, tell her "don't worry, the cleaning lady will get that" (points out that YOU are the cleaning lady) or tell her you are just leaving the mess till you have the baby and family like her come over to clean for you. LAUGH AT HER (after all, they are the clueless ones). It will free you.


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