# Baby Gets Circumcised Against Family's Wishes



## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Apparently all the moms posting worried about keeping their babies intact in the hospital had good reason to be concerned; unfortunately.
http://cbs4.com/local/South.Miami.Baby.2.1907271.html


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## anony (Jun 19, 2005)

That's terrible. I can't imagine the stress that must be putting on the family and the emotional scar with being reminded about what happened to your son against your wishes. I hope one day the child will not harbour anger over it and will come to accept it (he can't be sheltered from the reason forever) but thankfully there are restoration techniques if he doesn't like it. But that's not the point, because he will grow up having to see he is different from his relatives because of a hospital screw up. I know if I had been cut for that reason I'd be upset today, even with financial compensation. And if it happened to my son, I'd be livid. If there's anything good to come out of this, it might be that hospitals make a lot more paperwork and a lot more hurdles to go through to get a child circ'd or just drop it, leaving it in the hands of clinics where at least mistakes like this cannot be made. We can only hope.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

how sad! i will say i like that the hospital came right out and said sorry... that is huge of them. however it should have never happened! i feel so sorry for the family and the baby!!!


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## Oceanone (Oct 24, 2002)

That is just awful. I had my first born, a son, in an American hospital and many friends and family warned me to tell everyone no circumcision, and to keep him with me when possible. I thought they were over-reacting at the time. Poor baby and parents.


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

That poor child. I will definitely share that.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

Two things stick out at me from this sad story.

One is the awkward sentence construction of the journalist: "It turns out every man in Mario's family is uncircumcised." The phrase "it turns out" is generally used to express an unexpected fact; there is nothing strange about a Latin family in Miami not having a family tradition of circumcision. Second, "every man in Mario's family is uncircumcised" sounds creepy to me. Like they're all just awaiting their circumcisions. What's wrong with "Mario's family does not practice circumcision"?

The next thing is the hospital's icky apology. It comes across as, "Oops, but at least he got a really, really pretty circumcision! One of the best we've done!":

"_The procedure itself was performed following appropriate surgical guidelines and the baby didn't have any complications. Nevertheless, we're all deeply sorry that this happened_."

"_We also immediately implemented new processes to ensure this mistake will not occur again_."

Uh, better yet, why don't you just stop nontherapeutic circumcisions at your hospital? That way it's guaranteed this will never happen again. The hospital's insurance premiums and even doctors' insurance premiums may go down.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 
"_The procedure itself was performed following appropriate surgical guidelines and the baby didn't have any complications. Nevertheless, we're all deeply sorry that this happened_."

"_We also immediately implemented new processes to ensure this mistake will not occur again_."

Actually, appropriate surgical guidelines were not followed because his circumcision was not "authorized" by his parents. So that right there is false.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

yup. ladies and gentlemen: if you are having a baby at a hospital ASSUME the worst COULD happen. take all precautions to prevent a hospital "mistake" like this from happening to your newborn. if possible, keep your baby with you at all times. be sure you do not sign a consent form while in labor. some people write "do not circumcise" on every hospital form. some people write it on their child's belly. tell every nurse and every doctor who comes in your room that you do not want him circumcised. repeat, repeat, repeat. if possible, follow your child any time he has to be taken away from your room for weight checks, heel pricks, whatever.

circumcision is serious business. protect your sons!!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Oh my. That poor family.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

I wonder what would happen if the hospital had accidently gotten patients mixed up and removed the boys arm...

Would a letter of apology suffice?

Oops, we removed his arm, but you know it was done well and according to all guidelines...

Regards


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 
Two things stick out at me from this sad story.

One is the awkward sentence construction of the journalist: "It turns out every man in Mario's family is uncircumcised." The phrase "it turns out" is generally used to express an unexpected fact; there is nothing strange about a Latin family in Miami not having a family tradition of circumcision. Second, "every man in Mario's family is uncircumcised" sounds creepy to me. Like they're all just awaiting their circumcisions. What's wrong with "Mario's family does not practice circumcision"?

The next thing is the hospital's icky apology. It comes across as, "Oops, but at least he got a really, really pretty circumcision! One of the best we've done!":

"_The procedure itself was performed following appropriate surgical guidelines and the baby didn't have any complications. Nevertheless, we're all deeply sorry that this happened_."

"_We also immediately implemented new processes to ensure this mistake will not occur again_."

Uh, better yet, why don't you just stop nontherapeutic circumcisions at your hospital? That way it's guaranteed this will never happen again. The hospital's insurance premiums and even doctors' insurance premiums may go down.

Yes, the journalist makes it sound like an aberration to be "uncircumcised", rather than how it should be: "all boys are born intact". Somehow they need to be educated to understand that intact is normal, circumcised is not.

Also, as Brant says, if hospitals would just stop offering circumcisions, and stop doing them, then mistakes like this would not happen and a lot more boys would get to keep the best part.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I'm sorry...we just accidentally amputated the baby's leg, but everything went fine and there are no complications...bet that would go over well...think the hospital could have gotten away with a little apology then?


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I've had nightmares about this sort of thing.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Horrific. And also complete incompetence on the part of the hospital staff. Heads need to roll ( figuratively speaking ).


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Terrible. This poor family.

We wrote "no circ" on all ds1's and ds2's onesies and diapers while in the hospital. We also never let him out of our sight, not even for the newborn tests. I insisted on going with him to the nursery while they did them.


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## vachi73 (Mar 26, 2009)

Wow. I am literally sick thinking about this. I was terrified of this happening to my twins when they were in the NICU. Thankfully they came home whole!

Is there any way to communicate with the authors about their language in the article? E,g, intact versus uncircumcised? Etc.

So sorry for this mama, daddy, and baby boy. I hope they get a big settlement!!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Terrible. This poor family.

We wrote "no circ" on all ds1's and ds2's onesies and diapers while in the hospital. We also never let him out of our sight, not even for the newborn tests. I insisted on going with him to the nursery while they did them.

Just wanted to mention that parents have the right to demand EVERYTHING (weighing, ped exams, etc) done in their room. The nurses may hate you for that extra hassle, but who cares. We've done that with both of our kids. So they never had to leave the room.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
I'm sorry...we just accidentally amputated the baby's leg, but everything went fine and there are no complications...bet that would go over well...think the hospital could have gotten away with a little apology then?



















That poor baby, that poor mama


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
I've had nightmares about this sort of thing.

Me too :-(


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I didn't like the "it's a family tradition to be uncircumcised" part of the article, either.

So a circ'd dad who didn't want his son circ'd would have less reason to be angry than an intact dad?

My dh is circ'd and would have been beyond livid if this had happened to our son.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Happened to a friend of my DS3. 6ish years ago. The nurse took him for hearing test and a ped check and brought his momma back a paper to sign. She looked at it and said No we are not circing She said the nurse dropped the paper and ran down the hall. She jumped out of bed and ran after her but it was to late. They were just finishing up and she SCREAMED at the doctor... His response was ... well its not not like I gave him the wrong medication..









She screamed you F'd with the WRONG Momma. < her FIL was a DR and her father a malpractice lawyer







) The DR tried to blame it on the nurse. Yes they filed and won an amount that she said he would have no problem going to college and grad school on.

When her 2nd baby was born she told her OB nurse and the baby never left the room for a second ( different hospital different state)


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## A Mom's Love (Sep 21, 2008)

That is so, so sad.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'd have totally flipped out screaming too if I was her. Holy moly, I don't even want to think what I'd do.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
I've had nightmares about this sort of thing.

I had my second son at home .... partly so I would not be offered circ, partly so I would not have to worry about accidental circ. (also to reduce risk of c-section, duh. but the hospitals attempts to "sell" circ when DS1 was born was a big part of the decision.)


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

Sad thing and I just wonder how could they say Misread Consent Form because Why Did the Doctors Continue to Ask Her if she wanted her Son Circ Right there tells me they saw and knew she said NO .

So I believe they are lying about the misread consent form because Doctors have a habbit of continously asking them only When they say No .

So I believe they did it because they assumed it was needed to be done .


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## dianakaye (Mar 20, 2009)

Man, I am sick about this. At first I thought, "why would a mother let her baby out of her sight?". Then I read about him being in the NICU and sometimes it's just not possible to be by your baby's side 24/7 when they're in the NICU. I had a plan with my husband that if my baby ever had to be separated from me that he was to go with the baby and leave me. I'm glad we never had to be separated in the hospital. It seemed like it was policy at our hospital to do all the tests in the room- it was never once suggested that DS be taken to the nursery.

I can only imagine how I would feel if I were his mother- betrayal certainly. Heartbroken. To know that something that was rightfully his was stolen by a doctor that couldn't take the time to 1) uphold his Hippocratic oath or 2) read a consent form must be enraging. I hope they can restore him when it's possible (I know very little about it) to give him back as much as can be of what was rightfully his.

Honestly if I were the mother I would ask as part of the lawsuit for that doctor to never again perform a circumcision. I'd probably be laughed out of court, but I'd ask for it.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

wow. this makes my stomach sick. poor baby and family


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:

"_The procedure itself was performed following appropriate surgical guidelines and the baby didn't have any complications._ ."
I highly doubt that a baby who is unstable enough to be in intensive care is high on their list as appropriate for circumcision. The baby was in the NICU for 10 days. They circed him on Day 8.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter* 
She screamed you F'd with the WRONG Momma. < her FIL was a DR and her father a malpractice lawyer







) The DR tried to blame it on the nurse. Yes they filed and won an amount that she said he would have no problem going to college and grad school on.

wow, makes me wonder how many times it happens to boys whose grandparents/parents aren't lawyers/doctors and their parents just drop the case. How sad. The doctor did f'd with a wrong family LOL. even with all the money won over it, it is still a tragedy







. If this mama knows a lot about circ, I bet her heart breaks into a million peices every time she sees her son naked





















...mine would and there is NO amount of money that would ease this greif and pain...all the money in the world would not...


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
Just wanted to mention that parents have the right to demand EVERYTHING (weighing, ped exams, etc) done in their room. The nurses may hate you for that extra hassle, but who cares. We've done that with both of our kids. So they never had to leave the room.

That's the way it's automatically done here--at least in the hospital I was in. Nurses kept coming into the room and saying, "It's time for his hearing test" or "It's time to have him weighed again", and they would bring the equipment in, do it, and leave. I'm sure the NICU would be a different story though--well, harder for the mother to stay by the baby's side anyway.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

That is really horrible! I don't know how they can even consider it okay to circumcise a baby while they are still in intensive care. That's so sad.


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## baileyandmikey (Jan 4, 2005)

I would be so angry! Lawsuit would be filed, and I would be devestated!


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElliesMomma* 
yup. ladies and gentlemen: if you are having a baby at a hospital ASSUME the worst COULD happen. take all precautions to prevent a hospital "mistake" like this from happening to your newborn. if possible, keep your baby with you at all times. be sure you do not sign a consent form while in labor. some people write "do not circumcise" on every hospital form. some people write it on their child's belly. tell every nurse and every doctor who comes in your room that you do not want him circumcised. repeat, repeat, repeat. if possible, follow your child any time he has to be taken away from your room for weight checks, heel pricks, whatever.

circumcision is serious business. protect your sons!!











My heart breaks for that poor baby boy and his family.

Scary thing is that it could have happened to us with our third: They didn't get enough blood for my newborn's heel prick the previous evening, and came to tell us in the morning before discharge. I asked to go back with them and they said no, because they were also doing circumcisions in the room at the same time. If Jacey Clare had been a boy, who knows? Would the baby have come back circumcised? (DH wouldn't have minded, I guess, but I'd have been spitting blood and getting the commanding general of the hospital and the commander of the hospital and the doctor who performed the circ and the nurses that assisted fired, kicked out of the Army (if military) after their courts martial for aggravated assault and battery and maiming, and their licenses pulled...in addition to financial compensation on my son's behalf.)


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Shocking that this happened in a NICU. I was so worried about something like that happening when my boys were in the NICU, and most of the time you really can't be with them all the time.

If it had happened, I would be in jail right now. I warned my mom before they were born (didn't know they would be preemies) that she would be raising twin boys alone if anyone was inadvertantly circed.

There's at least one occasional poster on this board that actually had it happen with her first DS. She was young, single, and poor, so there was never any settlement.


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

It's nearly impossible for you to be by your babies side at all times in NICU. You have to leave the ward for an hour twice a day for shift change, and I didn't even get to see my babies until they were 2 days old because u was having problems after delivery.

Luckily, my hospital had some safeguards in place, for preemies anyway. They required the parents to be in the hospital waiting for the baby to have the circ, and the consent to be signed in front of two nurses. They also put a huge "no circ" sticker on my boy's chart.

It makes me wonder if they didn't have a lawsuit too.


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## misskira (Aug 5, 2010)

I can't imagine what my dh would have done. I would have been upset... he would have made heads roll.

At our hospital, they didn't even ask us if we want it done. The circ rates here are really low, so they just assume it's not gonna happen and that you'll ask if you want it. When I took him to his first appointment with our 2nd pedi, he looked at ds's bits and said "oh good, you didn't get him circumcised".


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
I highly doubt that a baby who is unstable enough to be in intensive care is high on their list as appropriate for circumcision. The baby was in the NICU for 10 days. They circed him on Day 8.

That stuck out on me, also. Even if the parents were okay with their son being circed, why the hurry to do it before he's even stable?!

This kind of "mixup" is what terrifies me about when my son will be born in January.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

That hospital "apology" makes me spitting mad. It's so condescending. It basically says "Well, it doesn't matter because nothing bad happened, but whatever, our bad". Horrible.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vachi73* 
Is there any way to communicate with the authors about their language in the article? E,g, intact versus uncircumcised? Etc.

If you click on the link to the article, it lists the reporter's name and has a link to his email.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
I highly doubt that a baby who is unstable enough to be in intensive care is high on their list as appropriate for circumcision. The baby was in the NICU for 10 days. They circed him on Day 8.

This is exactly the problem with the hospital's argument, to me. When my son was in the NICU I talked to the neonatologist about not circing him while he was in there, and she said that is the last thing a NICU would want to do because they don't want to risk infection. She told me that at our hospital they asked the parents to arrange circumcisions with their pediatrician after the baby goes home. (I still asked that it be noted on my son's file!) But after that experience, I can't understand how this hospital can at all justify this decision.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

Another member of this board and I want to do something. We're unsure whether to try to contact the family (they're local) or do something at the hospital. Ask for a meeting with administrators? Protest? The law firm handling this seems to be on top of it all. They "get it".

They are very cleverly handling this as a battery rather than as a malpractice, on the theory that circumcision is not valid surgery on a healthy newborn, thus no one has the right to consent to it and the hospital absolutely has no basis for assuming anyone could consent. (or, I suppose, do them on premises)


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Disgusting. I'll birth at home regardless, but this is one of my biggest fears about transferring if there should be an emergency.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter* 
She screamed you F'd with the WRONG Momma. < her FIL was a DR and her father a malpractice lawyer







) The DR tried to blame it on the nurse. Yes they filed and won an amount that she said he would have no problem going to college and grad school on.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 
The law firm handling this seems to be on top of it all. They "get it".

They are very cleverly handling this as a battery rather than as a malpractice, on the theory that circumcision is not valid surgery on a healthy newborn, thus no one has the right to consent to it and the hospital absolutely has no basis for assuming anyone could consent. (or, I suppose, do them on premises)

I was wondering last night about how such lawsuits were handled. It seems to me that the judge could take the position of the doctor that at least there was no harm done: "I know you didn't want a circumcision for your son, but aren't you glad that there were nothing went wrong and now he gets all the benefits of circumcision? I mean it's not the end of the world--it's done to babies all the time." So it seems to me that the case would have to be made against routine infant circumcision itself. And if such a case can be argued successfully in court, then how can RIC still be allowable (legal) after that precedence?


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 

They are very cleverly handling this as a battery rather than as a malpractice, on the theory that circumcision is not valid surgery on a healthy newborn, thus no one has the right to consent to it and the hospital absolutely has no basis for assuming anyone could consent. (or, I suppose, do them on premises)

I agree...this is awesome. I've told people before that if a doctor forcibly retracts, they should file an assault report with the police. It is the ONLY way it's going to stop! It's not "a mistake" for a doctor to do that. It's sexual assault of a minor, plain and simple. I'm sure some people think I'm crazy. But adults shouldn't even be messing with kids genitals unless there is an actual medical reason to and then it should be done in a respectful manner (like if a child really truly needs a circ, it should be done with proper pain relief and certainly not without a parent's consent). You can try and educate the doctor all you want, or report him to the medical board (or whoever handles that stuff), but they will only realize what they did was wrong if criminal charges are made.


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## skybluepink02 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kblackstone444* 
That stuck out on me, also. Even if the parents were okay with their son being circed, why the hurry to do it before he's even stable?!

This kind of "mixup" is what terrifies me about when my son will be born in January.

Our nicu had the circed boys done a day or two before the went home. The parents were happy their kid was healthy enough for such a "routine" procedure. It shows you how warped some peoples views on circ are.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I agree...this is awesome. I've told people before that if a doctor forcibly retracts, they should file an assault report with the police. It is the ONLY way it's going to stop! It's not "a mistake" for a doctor to do that. It's sexual assault of a minor, plain and simple. I'm sure some people think I'm crazy. But adults shouldn't even be messing with kids genitals unless there is an actual medical reason to and then it should be done in a respectful manner (like if a child really truly needs a circ, it should be done with proper pain relief and certainly not without a parent's consent). You can try and educate the doctor all you want, or report him to the medical board (or whoever handles that stuff), but they will only realize what they did was wrong if criminal charges are made.









i don't think you're crazy. the ones messing w/ the genitals are the crazy ones.

sus


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skybluepink02* 
Our nicu had the circed boys done a day or two before the went home. The parents were happy their kid was healthy enough for such a "routine" procedure. It shows you how warped some peoples views on circ are.

Yeah, that's how the NICU my daughter was in was.


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 
Another member of this board and I want to do something. We're unsure whether to try to contact the family (they're local) or do something at the hospital. Ask for a meeting with administrators? Protest? The law firm handling this seems to be on top of it all. They "get it".

They are very cleverly handling this as a battery rather than as a malpractice, on the theory that circumcision is not valid surgery on a healthy newborn, thus no one has the right to consent to it and the hospital absolutely has no basis for assuming anyone could consent. (or, I suppose, do them on premises)

Wow! That law blog link gave me chills!! This is a very good thing that could have very positive consequences for ending RIC. That family is so brave to be pushing back against the system like they are.

I would imagine the best thing would be to contact the family and offer support in whatever way they need. Contacting the hospital will get you nowhere. They will be mum until this thing is over. They won't talk to you, listen to you, or acknowledge anything you say as valid. The family may not be interested in any outside support either. After all, this isn't just a news story to them; it is their baby who was assaulted and maimed. I can't imagine in that situation that I would want to be any sort of poster child or ambassador for ending RIC. I would be focused on my baby and the case. But they may just take you up on it, or have some ideas, in concert with their lawyer, that they want to implement. At any rate, they would know that they have support from like-minded adults that they could keep in their back pocket.

PMing you, Brant.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I agree...this is awesome. I've told people before that if a doctor forcibly retracts, they should file an assault report with the police. It is the ONLY way it's going to stop! It's not "a mistake" for a doctor to do that. It's sexual assault of a minor, plain and simple. I'm sure some people think I'm crazy. But adults shouldn't even be messing with kids genitals unless there is an actual medical reason to and then it should be done in a respectful manner (like if a child really truly needs a circ, it should be done with proper pain relief and certainly not without a parent's consent). You can try and educate the doctor all you want, or report him to the medical board (or whoever handles that stuff), but they will only realize what they did was wrong if criminal charges are made.

I don't think you are crazy at all. Police, on the other hand, would probably think that the mother is crazy and most likely won't be very helpful. I think it would be very hard to prove that the doctor who retracted had no medical reason to do so. It's tough. Ignorance surrounding this issue is overwhelming.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I don't think you are crazy at all. Police, on the other hand, would probably think that the mother is crazy and most likely won't be very helpful. I think it would be very hard to prove that the doctor who retracted had no medical reason to do so. It's tough. Ignorance surrounding this issue is overwhelming.









I've thought about that and you are right that it may not help. The only instance where I could see that they would take it seriously is if the child were seriously harmed, like had tears and bleeding. In which case, even if the doctor could come up with a "valid" reason he needed to retract, they'd have to still take it seriously because OBVIOUSLY excessive force was used.

So I guess I should rephrase and say, if nothing really happened, just write a letter to the doctor explaining why what he did was unacceptable. If your son actually has swelling, bleeding, ect, take pictures and report it.

You know I understand why retraction can be harmful in any boy who is not retracted yet, but there is a huge difference between a doctor who gently retracts (well, as gently as you can for something you shouldn't even be doing) and one who actually uses force and keeps going even when the kid is screaming and bleeding. I don't agree with either doctor, but the latter is very VERY clearly in the wrong and needs to be stopped.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
I was wondering last night about how such lawsuits were handled. It seems to me that the judge could take the position of the doctor that at least there was no harm done: "I know you didn't want a circumcision for your son, but aren't you glad that there were nothing went wrong and now he gets all the benefits of circumcision? I mean it's not the end of the world--it's done to babies all the time." So it seems to me that the case would have to be made against routine infant circumcision itself. And if such a case can be argued successfully in court, then how can RIC still be allowable (legal) after that precedence?

Unfortunately, that is exactly the judicial reaction I have seen in every wrongful circumcision case I have studied.

I first started researching this way back when I was in law school. The Lexis search system was just starting and I was one of the lucky students selected to teach others how to use it -- meaning I had an unlimited account (no small deal when they were charging $60 an hour). I practiced my search skills by trying to find every legal case on circumcision I could. Such cases go way back in US history.

In every instance, the judge basically said, "Hey, the doctor said he was sorry and didn't charge you. You got a free circumcision! Be happy." Those were the cases in state court. I vividly remember there was a case of a young sailor from Milwaukee who sued the Navy. His buddies talked him into getting circumcised and he figured he'd do it while still enlisted, for free. It was so badly botched he had to be circumcised again, and even the redo was botched. He was basically left nonfunctional. His penis had been perfect before circumcision. He lost the case, on the theory of sovereign immunity of the US government. Poor sap.

We're wising up. Circumcision is a battery. The consented ones are merely consensual battery. Recognizing this is the key to winning these suits.

Part of the issue has been that so many US judges are themselves circumcised, but that will change. I was involved in a case a few years ago where the corporate defendants were on a roll, and were cocky enough to even ask for a change of judge to one who had always ruled in their favor. On the first day of arguments before him, he said "This case deals with circumcision... who in their right mind would think that was a good idea?" What the defendants didn't bank on was that "their boy", as they called the judge, was Hispanic (think "Judge Alex" from TV - who's also intact). Case was settled in a matter of days.

I may be interested enough in this Miami case that I'll find out when it's on the docket and sit through the trial.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

This is the exact reason I gave birth to the rest of my babies at home.

The first ds was not "informed consent". They won't say anything unless you ask. I just simply said, "I don't think its a good idea". Am I at fault for not asking more questions? Yes, according to the current hospital practice with their manipulating "policies". I wasn't questioned again. Maybe they were afraid I'd say ((NO))? Its what I would've said had I known the facts. Obviously to some, thats not the answer they want to hear.

_They will not inform you unless you ask the right questions_. But, they're more than happy to solicit it. And if you say no, especially FIRMLY? They'll just keep asking. What better time to ask you if you want to elect your healthy son's penis under a knife than a mother who is terribly distracted by her labor pains and while recovering after the birth?

I know a mom who was asked SEVEN times! She said *NO*,*NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*








She was a sexuality professor. She knew better. After that seventh time, they finally asked, "But... why not?"

I can't imagine the heartbreak of this happening after you had said NO so many times. Clearly, there isn't ignorance on the part of these mothers when they're telling you DO NOT DO THAT! When its done after you've tried your best to protect your healthy son?

I've had nightmares about this after my second son was born. by then, I was fully informed.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I was never asked if I wanted to circ. I just said to the nurses, we won't be circing. They said, "Okay", and that was that. It might have been that I had a mdwife deliver all my children and my pediatricians weren't really on board with circ. They did them if asked but didn't think anything of not doing it. I never realized at that time that babies were circ'd without permision! I think I was very innocent at the time, to be honest.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Wow, I know it doesn't help the family any, but they definitely could sue in order to prevent this from happening to others.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
I know a mom who was asked SEVEN times! She said *NO*,*NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*, *NO*








She was a sexuality professor. She knew better. After *that seventh time, they finally asked, "But... why not*?"

(the second bold mine). I'd find it histerically funny if it was not so sad...


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## MrsJewelsRae (Aug 19, 2008)

Poor baby! Poor Mama. Poor Family.







This is just so wrong! Even if the mother had consented, WHY don't they double check with the parents immediately before the circumcision!??? Even if she had wanted the circ, wouldn't most mothers at least want to be there afterward to comfort them? I really hate how dismissive the hospital was about it! How dare they!!!! WTH, they performed unnecessary, unauthorized, painful surgery on a medically fragile newborn, removing a functional body part!!!!??? I think I might have become physical had this happened to one of my sons! So angry!









I know a woman from another board who had consented to circ several weeks before her due date at her hospital pre registration. Her baby was born premature and was in the NICU, it hit her several days later that she had consented to circ her son but she definitely didn't want it done now especially since he was a preemie. She was having trouble with one nurse, who was very rude to her. Unfortunately, this was the nurse on duty in the NICU when she realized she had earlier consented to the circ weeks ago and she told the nurse she had changed her mind and did NOT want her son to be circ'd afterall, she was very firm about it and clearly distressed about the possibility. The nurse was somewhat dismissive and rude but said she'd take care of it, it was late at night and the mama had to go home. By the time she called the next morning on her way to visit her baby, he had been circumcised!!!














I don't know if she ever sued, but she was so upset about it and couldn't believe they did it w/o double checking since she had signed it before knowing her son would be prem and in the NICU. She also believed there may have been spite involved with the nurse.


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## annablue (Apr 6, 2010)

That is so horrible and scary. I'm not having a boy, and I'm not delivering in a hospital - but if I was, I'd be taking so many precautions to avoid this happening. I would have no hesitation about writing "no circ" on my baby's belly! I'm also disgusted by the hospital's dismissive, "oopsie" attitude. Like it's just no big deal.

There was actually an article about circumcision in the paper a while ago, and something similar nearly happened to a local couple - didn't sign the circ consent form, told the hospital staff no, but the nurses just assumed it was being done and whisked the baby away. Luckily they were stopped in time.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

As against RIC as I am (should be illegal), at the moment, it is legal and considered to be the parents' decision. Until it is absolutely illegal, safeguards should be put into place: before the surgery is performed, both parents must be spoken to seperately--to ascertain that one parent isn't bullying the other into it and the "weaker" one is going along to keep the peace--and they must both sign the consent forms. The only exemption would be a single mother. If either one does not sign, then the surgery is not performed (to keep, say, dad from signing the form or mom from signng the form against the other parent's wishes). If both parents are not present to sign, it cannot be done. It must be fully explained, and the risks of getting it done and the benefits of remaining intact. Then, after the consent is obtained, there must be a one-week waiting period. And also, this would be after the child is released from the hospital. And it must be its own appointment, not coinciding with the one week or two week post-discharge check-up. If the parents both have to bring the child back to the hospital, I wonder how many would get it done. At that time, both parents will again be taken aside and separately asked to consent (see previous reasoning--also in case one or the other has changed their mind) before the circumcision is performed.

When my son was born, I still had not made up my mind. My husband wanted it done, but I'd taken the red pill. He was deployed at the time. The nurses told me that I could always decide to get it done later, but it cannot be undone, and said I could come back and get it done anytime until he was two months old (after that, it would be after 1 year because he'd be put under for it, unless he was getting put under for another reason).


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter* 
Happened to a friend of my DS3. 6ish years ago. The nurse took him for hearing test and a ped check and brought his momma back a paper to sign. She looked at it and said No we are not circing She said the nurse dropped the paper and ran down the hall. She jumped out of bed and ran after her but it was to late. They were just finishing up and she SCREAMED at the doctor... His response was ... well its not not like I gave him the wrong medication..:

OMG, What a shock that must have been as she realised what they were up to !! This is what really burns me about the doctors who do this sort of thing - they act like it is no big deal, and that they actualy did you a favour. Sadly no amount of money is adequate compensation for being genitaly mutilated.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
As against RIC as I am (should be illegal), at the moment, *it is legal and considered to be the parents' decision*. Until it is absolutely illegal, safeguards should be put into place: before the surgery is performed, both parents must be spoken to seperately--to ascertain that one parent isn't bullying the other into it and the "weaker" one is going along to keep the peace--and they must both sign the consent forms. The only exemption would be a single mother. If either one does not sign, then the surgery is not performed (to keep, say, dad from signing the form or mom from signng the form against the other parent's wishes). If both parents are not present to sign, it cannot be done. It must be fully explained, and the risks of getting it done and the benefits of remaining intact. Then, after the consent is obtained, there must be a one-week waiting period. And also, this would be after the child is released from the hospital. And it must be its own appointment, not coinciding with the one week or two week post-discharge check-up. If the parents both have to bring the child back to the hospital, I wonder how many would get it done. At that time, both parents will again be taken aside and separately asked to consent (see previous reasoning--also in case one or the other has changed their mind) before the circumcision is performed.

When my son was born, I still had not made up my mind. My husband wanted it done, but I'd taken the red pill. He was deployed at the time. The nurses told me that I could always decide to get it done later, but it cannot be undone, and said I could come back and get it done anytime until he was two months old (after that, it would be after 1 year because he'd be put under for it, unless he was getting put under for another reason).

An arbitrary penis surgery on healthy minors isn't a decision that has to me made. Doctors are bound by their number one sacred dictum: prenum non nocre. Ethically, they shouldn't perform unwarranted surgery. Mario was healthy. There was absolutely no need for medical intervention on his genitals.

I feel terrible for this family who tried to protect Mario. Funny isn't it? [sarcasm] we﻿ actually have to protect our children from doctors...

Something already illegal and tolerated, cannot be seen by those who are tangled in the fabric of our culture.

Slavery(according to History), for example.

This is the reason Bills are drafted and sent through the legislative process. If it survives, it becomes Law. Laws are enforced to protect your property: Your assets, your life... in this case, "genital autonomy". Self Determination is the most basic fundamental right to every American citizen & Children are not property. For if they were, parents could do as they please. Such as brand them, tattoo them, sell them...


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## PlainandTall (May 21, 2010)

Please check the activism forum for info on a rally planned at the hospital where this happened. (this Friday Sept 17 2010)


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

It makes you wonder; if state legislatures or Congress won't enact comprehensive MGM legislation similar to the FGM bill, couldn't it be written in such a way that parents who register their sons with an MGM database get exactly the same protections as from the FGM bill (i.e., 5 years in prison + fine for the perp), plus protection from retraction. To work, it would also have language stating that no physician could discriminate on the basis of MGM protection.

This would cause an upheaval in hospitals and doctors' offices across the country, and create an identifiable record of how many families feel so strongly about keeping their sons intact that they're willing to invoke this protection. Imagine well-baby visits when you inform the doctor and staff upfront that your child is MGM-registered. No more fretting about retraction or gratuitous suggestions of an afternoon circ while you have your latte.

Indeed, it might turn into a stigma not to register your child for the protection.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Cases like this is why malpractice lawsuits are a positive social good.

That said, I might just kick the doctor's ass.







Thank Science DS was born in a country where they do not perform circs in the hospital after birth. Dealing with all the post-birth emotions is enough without adding in guarding your baby from those who are supposed to help him.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlainandTall* 
Please check the activism forum for info on a rally planned at the hospital where this happened. (this Friday Sept 17 2010)

A link for the lazy

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1262029


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## MaddieMay (Jul 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *misskira* 
At our hospital, they didn't even ask us if we want it done. The circ rates here are really low, so they just assume it's not gonna happen and that you'll ask if you want it.

This was our experience as well-if you want it done, you make arrangements with your baby's pediatrician to have it done after discharge.

My heart breaks for this family-how incredibly heartbroken they must be.


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## ancoda (Oct 17, 2005)

That is so horrid for the baby and that family. I hope they are able to get that doctor fired.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skybluepink02* 
Our nicu had the circed boys done a day or two before the went home. The parents were happy their kid was healthy enough for such a "routine" procedure. It shows you how warped some peoples views on circ are.

This is how it was in the NICU my son was in too.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brant31* 
Unfortunately, that is exactly the judicial reaction I have seen in every wrongful circumcision case I have studied.

I first started researching this way back when I was in law school. The Lexis search system was just starting and I was one of the lucky students selected to teach others how to use it -- meaning I had an unlimited account (no small deal when they were charging $60 an hour). I practiced my search skills by trying to find every legal case on circumcision I could. Such cases go way back in US history.

In every instance, the judge basically said, "Hey, the doctor said he was sorry and didn't charge you. You got a free circumcision! Be happy." Those were the cases in state court.

That's what I was afraid of. You can't put a monetary value on a loss that is not perceived as a loss. But things are changing, as a previous poster knows somebody who had a successful case, right?


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Mario's parents left his side in the NICU for just ONE hour to go home and change. It was during this 60 minutes that Mario was taken from the NICU and circumcised by Dr. Mary Jean Pazos.

He wasn't even healthy enough for surgery!


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

It is *not* their fault. Parents shouldn't have to stand guard over their baby's foreskin.


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## Pumpkinheadmommy (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Mario's parents left his side in the NICU for just ONE hour to go home and change. It was during this 60 minutes that Mario was taken from the NICU and circumcised by Dr. Mary Jean Pazos.

He wasn't even healthy enough for surgery!









That's a very strange coincidence. Makes me wonder if this was even really an "accident."


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## Dave2GA (Jul 31, 2005)

I've now done 20+ of these cases. But I have never gotten this sort of publicity. I hope that with the help of the Florida Hispanic community they can get the bill passed to prohibit neonatal hospital circs, but I won't hold my breath.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *misskira* 
At our hospital, they didn't even ask us if we want it done. The circ rates here are really low, so they just assume it's not gonna happen and that you'll ask if you want it. When I took him to his first appointment with our 2nd pedi, he looked at ds's bits and said "oh good, you didn't get him circumcised".









Same as here. No mention was made of circumcising. If a parent wants it done it has to be requested, and then it's done at 2 weeks old by the ONLY doctor in that hospital who will do infant circ's.

I smell a lawsuit and I hope the mama wins. Not that money will replace the little guys missing foreskin....but he deserves some sort of compensation.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

This scares me! I don't have boys but eventually if I do I worry Im going to have to follow them all over the postnatal floor to make sure he isn't violated like that. Maybe if I find out Im having a boy Ill make a huge sign to put on his bassinet "No circ, no bottle, no paci" since the hospital Im delievering at this time is very pro bottles/paci/circ etc.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OkiMom* 
This scares me! I don't have boys but eventually if I do I worry Im going to have to follow them all over the postnatal floor to make sure he isn't violated like that. Maybe if I find out Im having a boy Ill make a huge sign to put on his bassinet "No circ, no bottle, no paci" since the hospital Im delievering at this time is very pro bottles/paci/circ etc.

Unless your baby is sick and is in NICU, he doesn't need to be anywhere, but in your room. Not many parents are aware of that, but you can ask EVERYTHING (ped check-ups, weighing, etc) done in your room. Some nurses may not be liking you for that extra headache, but who cares. It is your right. We've done that with both of our kids. Also with both of my babies I did not allow the heel prick test untill they were in a very deep sleep, after a good nursing, right on my breast. Only then I called nurses and let them prick them while they were sleeping on my chest. They never woke up or even moved.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dave2GA* 
I've now done 20+ of these cases. But I have never gotten this sort of publicity. I hope that with the help of the Florida Hispanic community they can get the bill passed to prohibit neonatal hospital circs, but I won't hold my breath.

Are the cases public record and if so, can you tell me where to access them? I have had several discussions with people in the past week or so where they have asserted that this is must be an extremely rare occurrence, and I would love to have proof to the contrary.


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## Pumpkinheadmommy (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dave2GA* 
I've now done 20+ of these cases. But I have never gotten this sort of publicity. I hope that with the help of the Florida Hispanic community they can get the bill passed to prohibit neonatal hospital circs, but I won't hold my breath.

Do you have any current cases? Maybe you should issue a press release of your own. It would certainly show people that this is not an isolated incident.


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## PlainandTall (May 21, 2010)

This sort of thing happens A LOT more often that you will ever know because the majority of babies/parents this happens to- were going to go for the circumcision... just by the roll of the dice- if the hospital screws up and knows it- they still have pretty good odds of getting that consent form signed. I know of a lot of stories where a doctor or nurse realizes that consent hadn't been obtained- takes the paper to the mom, gets the signature (bullies if needed) and then brings the baby back circumcised.

I hope that the publicity of this case wises all parents up- that if they have not have a perfect chain of custody on their infant- and someone shows up with a consent form to sign- they need to insist to see the infant RIGHT AWAY and open that diaper! If the child was circumcised without consent- they should consider that a big payday because as far as anyone knows- they >wink< weren't going to circumcise that baby.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

I have posted an account of today's rally for baby Mario Viera in front of South Miami Hospital.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Publicity covering Mario's case is great, but I hope that would use it more to educate people on the harm of circ. Like not just say that mom did not want it done, but also explain the harms of circ and the benefits of foreskin. This kind of publicity with right educational approach can save so many boys from simular destiny of being cut.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

A couple of the banners and a couple of the signs were made specifically for the South Miami Hospital situation, and we used those. But the other signs we rotated in included ones about gender equality, the pain of circumcision and loss of protective and erogenous tissue through circumcision. Believe me, the drivers got an eyeful, particularly when stopped at lights. It was a silent protest.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Mario's parents left his side in the NICU for just ONE hour to go home and change. It was during this 60 minutes that Mario was taken from the NICU and circumcised by Dr. Mary Jean Pazos.









And this is being claimed as a "ACCIDENT"? - I think not.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakunangovi* 
And this is being claimed as a "ACCIDENT"? - I think not.

Maybe that's why the parents and lawyer are suing for battery, not medical malpractice.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Mario's parents left his side in the NICU for just ONE hour to go home and change. It was during this 60 minutes that Mario was taken from the NICU and circumcised by Dr. Mary Jean Pazos.

He wasn't even healthy enough for surgery!









Oh my....it looks like someone in this hospital is on a mission...


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't understand law stuff, but this case doesn't look strong to me. Also, are they only asking for $15,000?
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/09/wrong...aby-mario.html


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
I don't understand law stuff, but this case doesn't look strong to me. A'so, are they only asking for $15,000?
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/09/wrong...aby-mario.html

Are you kidding me?! Their baby went through a cosmetic surgery against their wishes and they only ask for $15,000???? Oh my...I'm amazed that the hospital did not offer them this amount without court. The amount is shamefully small! I would imagine they'd ask AT LEAST two-three hundred thousand.


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## PlainandTall (May 21, 2010)

I think you didn't understand what was written there- I'm not great at leagalese myself, but I think that it said their claim was in EXCESS of the minimum $15,000 required by that court... meaning this was not a *small* claims court.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlainandTall* 
I think you didn't understand what was written there- I'm not great at leagalese myself, but I think that it said their claim was in EXCESS of the minimum $15,000 required by that court... meaning this was not a *small* claims court.

Okay, thanks. That's what I was trying to ask. It said "minimum" so I figured they were asking for more but I thought it was too low to use as a minimum starting point. I believe I understand now what was meant.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

According to abcnews.com, they are asking for $1 million for the "deformity" the surgery caused. And the news site put the word in quotes just like that.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita* 
According to abcnews.com, they are asking for $1 million for the "deformity" the surgery caused. And the news site put the word in quotes just like that.

Oh, ok, I'm glad to hear that. $1 million sounds like a much more fair number.


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita* 
According to abcnews.com, they are asking for $1 million for the "deformity" the surgery caused. And the news site put the word in quotes just like that.











I wouldn't expect any less from the American media, though.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita* 
According to abcnews.com, they are asking for $1 million for the "deformity" the surgery caused. And the news site put the word in quotes just like that.

link? i searched the site & didn't find it.

thanks,
sus


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## ckberkey (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
Oh my....it looks like someone in this hospital is on a mission...

That was my first thought.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

They pestered me with DS1 as well... told me of all the problems it can cause his wife if we didn't do it...


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## 123 (Jun 16, 2005)

Do you think they can really win a case of assault and battery? Do they have to go before a jury or just a judge? And it will probably be appealed if they do win, so it might take a while. I don't know enough about such things to know what kind of a chance they have.

But if they do win, that could really help. I mean, nobody can get insurance against an assault and battery lawsuit like you can against malpractice, right? So this could really scare a lot of doctors and hospitals out of doing circ's. It only takes one mistake, one unsigned consent form. Are the $ really worth the risk? I bet a bunch of them will think it's not.

Of course, that's assuming they can win this case. I really hope they can.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *123* 
Do you think they can really win a case of assault and battery? Do they have to go before a jury or just a judge? And it will probably be appealed if they do win, so it might take a while. I don't know enough about such things to know what kind of a chance they have.

But if they do win, that could really help. I mean, nobody can get insurance against an assault and battery lawsuit like you can against malpractice, right? So this could really scare a lot of doctors and hospitals out of doing circ's. It only takes one mistake, one unsigned consent form. Are the $ really worth the risk? I bet a bunch of them will think it's not.

Of course, that's assuming they can win this case. I really hope they can.

We have an Attorney or two around here perhaps if they have time they can shed some light on this.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Here's a link to the ABCnews.com article:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoo...ry?id=11626925


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